# Amp recommendations for Audeze LCD-2



## oqvist

Please chime in what your best amps are for this headphone or educated guesses compared to previous ortho experiences.


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## Skylab

Well...of the amps I own, the best was the Leben CS300X.  The Leben and the LCD-2 together are HEAVENLY.
   
  Next best was the Meier Concerto - which was also excellent with the LCD-2 (and is solid state, unlike the Leben...and also 1/4 the price of the Leben...)


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## dBel84

I did most of my listening with an amp that will be coming to market shortly - it is being "unveiled" at canjam. It is the Liquid Fire amp from Cavalli Audio. It is a tube hybrid, high voltage for the tubes to keep them operating at their most linear point, dual 30V rails for the class A Mosfet output stage which allows 42V p-p swing. DC coupled so no caps or transformers n the signal path and a servo which keeps the offset at zero. 
   
  It is a wonderfully powerful amp and well worth the audition. Cavalli Audio is also releasing a solid state amp, the "Liquid Gold" which will have similar voltage swing but will be faster. 
   
  ..dB


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## dBel84

I will add more commercial amps as I read through the vast list out there and find amps that I feel would be worth an audition. 
   
  EDIT:::
   
  well this sounded like an easy task but there are sooooo many amps out there! I guess I have lived a secluded life in DIYland. So I will not be tracking down all the topologies of the commercial offerings as I could spend many hours on this which I have no real interest in for myself. If people have an amp in mind, might I suggest you do the leg work and post a comprehensive overview of what is known about topology and specs and then we can hash out an opinion. 
   
  ..dB
   
  (keeping this to commercial amps as DIY is another ball game )


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## Leny

Can this thread please include prices, so as to maintain a sense of perspective.
   
  I've just had a quick look around, but can not find prices for Mr. Cavalli's Liquid Fire and Liquid Gold amps. Has the price been released?


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## Ridleyguy

Quote: 





leny said:


> Can this thread please include prices, so as to maintain a sense of perspective.
> 
> I've just had a quick look around, but can not find prices for Mr. Cavalli's Liquid Fire and Liquid Gold amps. Has the price been released?


 

 I believe the Liquid Fire will be priced around $2,000 based on my recollection of speaking with Dr. Cavalli at CanJam, but I can't confirm that.  He also seemed interested in following up with people from CanJam as he was making a list of people who auditioned the amp.  as well as getting feedback on pricing for the Liquid Fire.


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## Markj

I am using SPL Phonitor amp (pro audio) and playing Dire Straits Brothers In Arms makes it sound like 3D, drums way in front of the head and guitar on the side, just like watching them. I don't know where they were standing at the recording, but it is a new scale of experience compare to other headphones on same setup. Headphone out of my cd player with LCD-2 sounds better then with T1. No previous experience with orthos (that I remember).


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## Markj

SPL Phonitor is solid state amp with SPL proprietary opamps. 1.7 Watt at 600 OHM, Retail about $2000.


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## oqvist

only 360 mA out of 50 Kohm though. I hear you about dire straits have their recordings are phenomenal. Soundstaging out of my Auditor is the best I heard so far too.
   
  Do you find the Phonitor being able to drive the T1 better then the LCD-2?


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## Leny

Ridleyguy thank you for the swift answer.
   
   
  Quote: 





oqvist said:


> only 360 mA out of 50 Kohm though.


 
   
  The specification quotes 360 mW into 30 Ohms.
   
  That translates into 216 mW into 50 Ohms.
   
  That translates into approximately 114 dB into a LCD-2.
   
  More than enough.
   
  (Obviously you will ignore the 15W LCD-2 maximum rating, as you surely understand that is the maximum level that the speaker unit will withstand before sustaining physical damage, and hence it has no relevance to human listening levels or actual power requirements for normal listening).


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## oqvist

Yes correct at 30 ohms. I am not looking at volume but an amp that can drive the LCD-2s to the max. Would 116mW really be sufficient for a 50 ohm heapdhone? People recommend DIY amps and such which have way more power or to use speaker terminals.


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## Leny

Quote: 





oqvist said:


> People recommend DIY amps and such which have way more power or to use speaker terminals.


 


 That's because a lot of people talk out of their ignorant butts!
   
   
  Facts are important when it comes to understanding headphone power requirements, so let's consider the facts relating to the LCD-2...
   
  According to the specification published on Audez'e site the LCD-2 headphones have a 50 Ohm impedance and a 91 dB at 1 mW sensitivity.
   
  According to the specification published on SPL's site the Phonitor amplifier has 360 mW into 30 Ohms.
   
  360 mW into 30 Ohms has a voltage swing (supported by sufficient current) that translates into 216 mW into 50 Ohms.  
   
  Given the 91 dB at 1 mW rating of the LCD-2, then 216 mW translates into approximately 114 dB.
   
   
  And now for reasonable supposition... if a user is listening at a typical 80 dB, then 114 dB gives 34 dB of headroom, which should be more than enough for almost anyone.
   
  And now for enthusiastic extremism... if a user is headbanging at 95-100 dB they might conceivably require an occasional peak rock-concert level of 120 dB (which really is head-in-the-speakers loud), in which case an amplifier would have to deliver 1 Watt (i.e. 1000 mW), which on a 50 ohm load is 7.07 V RMS and a peak current of 200 mA.
   
  This all assumes that the impedance curve is flat, however if it undulates then a little more reserve power might be required for some headbangers!
   
   
  So, in conclusion, the Phonitor should provide more than sufficient volume for most people most of the time, but committed loud rock lovers might desire a touch more.


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## kunalraiker

I have never heard any ortho headphones, but whenever I have read anuy post about the LCD2 ,I have also read along with it the best amp for it is the liquid gold by Cavalli.


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## Skylab

Quote: 





kunalraiker said:


> I have never heard any ortho headphones, but whenever I have read anuy post about the LCD2 ,I have also read along with it the best amp for it is the liquid gold by Cavalli.


 

 Fascinating, since that amp isn't yet available, and almost no one has ever heard one.


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## oqvist

the power of unobtanium is strong 
   
  @Leny I don´t think anyone have ever mentioned that you won´t get ample volume with a phonitor/auditor rather that it may not be able to drive the LCD-2 to the max. As always it can just be bad synergy for a persons ear.
   
  Also specs are often measured at optimal temperatures and such to make it look as  good as possible. max output is not always the same as continous output either


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## TheWuss

the cavalli.
  it's flavor of NEXT month.


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## Leny

@oqvist, good luck.


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## Paganini Alfredo

Has anyone tried the LCD's with a HeadRoom amp? Thanks.


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## Shinsight

Quote: 





dbel84 said:


> I did most of my listening with an amp that will be coming to market shortly - it is being "unveiled" at canjam. It is the Liquid Fire amp from Cavalli Audio. It is a tube hybrid, high voltage for the tubes to keep them operating at their most linear point, dual 30V rails for the class A Mosfet output stage which allows 42V p-p swing. DC coupled so no caps or transformers n the signal path and a servo which keeps the offset at zero.
> 
> It is a wonderfully powerful amp and well worth the audition. Cavalli Audio is also releasing a solid state amp, the "Liquid Gold" which will have similar voltage swing but will be faster.
> 
> ..dB





    
  Quote:


leny said:


> Can this thread please include prices, so as to maintain a sense of perspective.
> 
> I've just had a quick look around, but can not find prices for Mr. Cavalli's Liquid Fire and Liquid Gold amps. Has the price been released?





   
  Any word yet on the estimated price for the Liquid Fire and Liquid Gold amps from Cavalli Audio?
   
  Also, did anyone try the LCD-2 with the new TTVJ Apex Peak Hybrid amp w/ Volcano PSU at CanJam?


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## tako_tsubo

So how will the LCD 2 sound with my ZDT? Anyone try the LCD2 with any EC amp?


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## emelius

Quote: 





tako_tsubo said:


> So how will the LCD 2 sound with my ZDT? Anyone try the LCD2 with any EC amp?


 

 I believe Absorbine_Sr did with positive results...also, a search yielded:
   
  Quote:


amangeorge said:


> I heard the LCD-2 at RMAF and it blew my mind (was being run off a ZDT). Truly awesome quickness and bass impact. I'm counting the days until they are officially released - I'm jumping right on a pair. May get a pair of HE-5s as well to compare - will certainly share my thoughts if I do.
> 
> EDIT: Woo 1,000th post



   
  hope this helps...I only listened through the Liquid Fire...


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## Skylab

I've spent some time this weekend using the LCD-2 with the J SoundLab Headphone, which is a small, relatively inexpensive transformer-coupled tube headphone amp.  It actually worked quote well!  We have had no electric power here since Friday afternoon, due to some serious storms (as I type this we still don't have power 2 days later).  I have a back-up generator, but it doesn't power everything, and I don't have my main rig on, so I am using this little guy.  The sound is actually MUCH better than I expected.  The fact that it's a transformer-coupled design is the key, I think.  Perfect?  No.  But for the money (last I knew this amp was $399), really very good.


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## Frihed89

Unbelievably good was my reaction at RMAF2009.  I had never heard anything like it before.  Better than anything they had at the Woo tables, but that was all a blur.  This combination, the ZDT with other headphones (ask Larry) and the Exstata SS amp (with a bunch of different electrostatic headphones) blew my mind and turned an otherwise disappointing RMAF into at least decent.


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## Torero

Skylab:
   
  Is the Woo Audio 6 a good amplifier to use with the LCD-2? What do you think?
   
  Thanks.


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## Farnsworth

Quote: 





skylab said:


> I've spent some time this weekend using the LCD-2 with the J SoundLab Headphone, which is a small, relatively inexpensive transformer-coupled tube headphone amp.  It actually worked quote well!


 
   
  I Was just about to ask you about that. That is very good to hear.
   
  Now, to continue saving for the LCD-2.


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## jc9394

torero said:


> Skylab:
> 
> 
> 
> ...







 X2, I want to get LCD-2 but don't want to buy another amp for it. I heard it does not match well with my Sonett.


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## Skylab

I have not heard it with the WA6, but there were some good reports of the pairing by others.


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## jc9394

Hummm, I may just get it and give it a try.


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## superjohny

Quote: 





paganini alfredo said:


> Has anyone tried the LCD's with a HeadRoom amp? Thanks.


 

 pretty interested to know too. 
   
  i am quite interested in BUDA+DPS


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## Solude

Would you say the J Sound Lab is as good a match as the Meier Concerto?


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## Skylab

I haven't really compared them, but I would not say it's quite as good.


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## Solude

Well then its time I talked to the good Doctor about a Concerto then.  Officially on the short list for an LCD-2 when they ship as of 9 minutes ago


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## Ypoknons

The best part is really the volume control, no imbalance or limited steps to deal with.


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## achristilaw

Balanced:                                                  Single-ended:
   
  1. GS-X/Dynamid                                   1. Leben CS300XS
  2. Balanced Beta                                   2. Dynahi
                                                             3. LaRocco HeadCode DM
                                                             4. Cavalli EHHA
   
  The above (I own), and do an excellent job of conveying the potential of the Audez'e. The Auditor will drive it, not to it's best ability however. It will constrict and narrow the image and is ragged at the frequency extremes (lumpy one note Bass ex.). It's design intent was for the HIGH imp. phone after-all. The Sonett I don't recommend as it is lacking drive, dynamics and restricts the phones potential greatly. 
   
  My higher output SET (Moth) was pleasant but rounded the extremes and was to colored (and slow) for long-term use (IMO).
   
  The more clean continuous power (for the available impedance)...the better the result!


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## Markj

Quote: 





oqvist said:


> only 360 mA out of 50 Kohm though. I hear you about dire straits have their recordings are phenomenal. Soundstaging out of my Auditor is the best I heard so far too.
> 
> Do you find the Phonitor being able to drive the T1 better then the LCD-2?


 

 T1 has better synergy with Phonitor. Guess all 600 Ohm HP sound good on Phonitor. With  good SACD (soft rock or classical T1 sound is just out of this world. T1 is still bass lite, not as bad as HD800 and K701( total castrato).  LCD-2 has excellent dynamics and clarity with Phonitor. Strangely, some times I prefer darker sound of my cd player build in headphone amp. Have to try LCD-2 with tube amp.  I have really hard time deciding which headphones I should sell, seems silly to have 3 pairs of headphones.But LCD-2 fits nicely between Edition8 (the best bass slam and P.R.A.T.and more treble) and T1 ( brighter presentation with lighter bass). All three headphones have same detail retrieval and clarity of sound. LCD-2 and Edition8 takes longer to adapt  10 - 30 min.


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## tvrboy

How do you think the LCD-2 would perform with my EF-5? I know this amp has more than enough power, even though it's probably not the last word in sound quality. I'm interested in the LCD-2 because I already have this amp designed specifically for orthos...


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## QUIGS

First post, although I have been lurking for about 3 weeks. I have a couple questions. I read a review on the Emmeline, "The Apache" and a review on the Audez'e LCD-2. Would the Apache be a good match for the LCD-2?  Also, would the LCD-2 benefit going balanced? Thanks.


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## oqvist

Quote: 





markj said:


> T1 has better synergy with Phonitor. Guess all 600 Ohm HP sound good on Phonitor. With  good SACD (soft rock or classical T1 sound is just out of this world. T1 is still bass lite, not as bad as HD800 and K701( total castrato).  LCD-2 has excellent dynamics and clarity with Phonitor. Strangely, some times I prefer darker sound of my cd player build in headphone amp. Have to try LCD-2 with tube amp.  I have really hard time deciding which headphones I should sell, seems silly to have 3 pairs of headphones.But LCD-2 fits nicely between Edition8 (the best bass slam and P.R.A.T.and more treble) and T1 ( brighter presentation with lighter bass). All three headphones have same detail retrieval and clarity of sound. LCD-2 and Edition8 takes longer to adapt  10 - 30 min.


 
  Thanks for that. Interesting you got the same top three headphones as myself. Well haven´t got the LCD-2 yet but it´s just a matter of time. T1 impresses a lot on the Auditor when transparency is the goal.
   
  I think I am looking for something darker and warmer with the LCD-2 then the Auditor/T1 combo. No tiring bass I want something that hypnotizes me a bit like the fostex T50RPs. I have dynamics that surely have the PRaT thing going already 
  NX-02 sistema should be able to drive it I hope?  It´s optimized for low impedance headphones like the Ultrasones afterall.  Belongs more to the "musical ss amps" rather then the reference type? That is the impression I got from reviews. Don´t be afraid to correct me.
   
  I am also most likely getting a traformator head one to do another venture into the tube world.  Is tube amps in general as reliable as single stage if you count out the tubes themselves?


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## monotune

Jumping in this thread. I thought this was a good place because I own the Edition 8, LCD-2 & HD800's. I diid spend some time with the T1 as well. In complete agreement. HD800's really light in the bass dept. no matter the amp. The T1 was better but still the LCD-2 just murder's those two. I have been using the iDecco at home and ALO RX & SR-71A on the road. My favorite in the ALO RX & iMod with the LCD-2 is killing me. Everyday it is better. Burn in time  has been a lot but it was great out of the box. It just gets sweeter everyday. I have heard from quite a few people that the Cavali Liquid Fire is the thing to get when it comes out. I think that will be my first nice home unit.


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## kwkarth

The Schiit Asgard seems to be working very well with the LCD-2.  It's got more than ample power and is a SE, Class A bias, Mossfet, 0 global feedback design.  Great sound for the money.  $250.00  USA made.


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## SP Wild

Bargain!  $250, Drive LCD-2s and know there are few rivals.  Made in USA!


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## oqvist

Any of you heard the Schiit or just recommend it because it´s "made in USA"?


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## Solude

Dude its the schiit 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Sorry couldn't resist.  Frankly at that price, for that spec its worth a listen if nothing else even though it is made in the USA zing


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## kwkarth

Quote: 





oqvist said:


> Any of you heard the Schiit or just recommend it because it´s "made in USA"?


 

 Yup, got one on my bench as we speak.  It's got about 40 hours on it now and I do feel it improved most over the first 24.  Actually over the first couple hours, but then more slowly over the next 20 or so.
   
  Anyway, in absolute terms, it's a good amp, in relative terms...  well, I'm in the midst of evaluating it against other amps now...  Let's just say, for now, that it is one of the most _honest_ amps I can remember hearing.


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## achristilaw

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> Yup, got one on my bench as we speak.  It's got about 40 hours on it now and I do feel it improved most over the first 24.  Actually over the first couple hours, but then more slowly over the next 20 or so.
> 
> Anyway, in absolute terms, it's a good amp, in relative terms...  well, I'm in the midst of evaluating it against other amps now...  Let's just say, for now, that it is one of the most _honest_ amps I can remember hearing.


 

 "honest"? Could you please elaborate a little further? Honest, as in value? Other?


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## kwkarth

Quote: 





achristilaw said:


> "honest"? Could you please elaborate a little further? Honest, as in value? Other?


 

 Honest, as in faithful to the sound, and, I guess, yes, honest as in value too.


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## oqvist

faithful to the sound as in transparent, neutral, little colouration?


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## kwkarth

Quote: 





oqvist said:


> faithful to the sound as in transparent, neutral, little colouration?


 

 yes


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## gogogasgas

So can we assume the LCD-2 requires a high current, rather than a high voltage, amplifier design in order to get the best from it? (I hope that's the correct lingo)

   

  In the solid state camp, has anyone tried any amps from Rudistor or Violectric with the LCD-2?

   

   

  What was the verdict using the LCD-2 with the Meier models?


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## Skylab

I felt the LCD-2 sounded very good with the Meier Concerto.


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## superjohny

i guess i will switch to lcd-2 from LA7000 as my next hp and in terms of amp, maybe still BUDA?


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## QUIGS

How about tube, the Woo WA 6 SE or WA  5 LE?


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## oqvist

Quote: 





gogogasgas said:


> So can we assume the LCD-2 requires a high current, rather than a high voltage, amplifier design in order to get the best from it? (I hope that's the correct lingo)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Very curious about both the violectric and Rudistors. I thought I had a NX-02 on my way but havent heard from the seller as of late.
   
  As for tubes I am getting a Traformatic Head one.


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## QUIGS

I have been researching and reading reviews for a couple of weeks. As of now I have the HD 600's running into a, don't laugh!!, a Kenwood RD-VH7 Class A amp,cd, tuner.  I would like to go tube. So I was thinking about somthing like this:
   
  WA 5 LE
  Ayon CD-1S
  Audez'e LCD-2
   
  I listen to mostly classic rock and very little metal (Judas Priest, Iron Maiden etc).


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## kwkarth

Quote: 





gogogasgas said:


> So can we assume the LCD-2 requires a high current, rather than a high voltage, amplifier design in order to get the best from it? (I hope that's the correct lingo)
> 
> 
> What was the verdict using the LCD-2 with the Meier models?


 

 Yes, of course it requires high current.  That's what I and a number of others have been saying since day one.  The LCD-2 was very listenable on the Corda Aria and I believe the output of the newer Meier Audio amps have more output than the Aria.  The Aria's biggest shortcoming  is a lack of headroom, but for what it is, it does a good job, albeit being on the verge of being underpowered for the job.
   
  The Corda Symphony.2 and the  Concerto are both rated at 13V@500mA max out, which should be pretty good with the LCD-2.  That's 3.25W @ 26 ohms. I would expect both of those amps to sound great.


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## gogogasgas

OK - high current headphone amps are the ticket.
   
  KWKARTH: looking at the Corda amps, would it be wise to choose a model without the DAC to keep the signal path pure? I see that the Concerto offers a DAC free solution. If I also wanted a DAC, I could use the Stagedac for a two-box solution. That being said, I wonder if the headphone amp in the Concerto is as good as the one in the Symphony 2?
  *** I also just noticed that the Cordas models use Opamps. Hhhmm.
   
  And what of the Rudistor or Violectric models? I can't remember if I've read that they are all high current designs or not.
   
  *** Just found this on the Rudistor site:
   
*[size=10pt]"RPX-[/size][size=10pt]3[/size][size=10pt]00 is a pure Class A amplifier, [/size]*[size=10pt]working either in balance[/size][size=10pt]d or unbalanced[/size][size=10pt] input and output, or in any combination of them. The *high current output*, the absolute zero negative feedback (local or global) and the great capability of controlling the transducers make RPX-[/size][size=10pt]3[/size][size=10pt]00 an astonishing transparent and dynamic amp."[/size]
   
  No sign of Opamps in the Rudistor amp either, or are they hiding in there somewhere....


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## emelius

Quote: 





quigs said:


> So I have been researching and reading reviews for a couple of weeks. As of now I have the HD 600's running into a, don't laugh!!, a Kenwood RD-VH7 Class A amp,cd, tuner. I have always wanted to move up in audio. My wife and I are dept free!! So I decided to move up. I would like to go tube. So I was thinking about somthing like this:
> 
> WA 5 LE
> Ayon CD-1S
> ...


 
   
  to be perfectly honest, I was underwhelmed by most everything Woo had at CanJam with the exception of the WA2 which, as nbourbaki brought to my attention, had crazy good synergy with the Beyer T1...they had many headphones available to try with their amps, but not the LCD-2...some did take the LCD-2 over to that room, however...
   
  if you're ready to spend that kinda money, why not try the Liquid Fire or one of the Eddie Current models?...


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## Solude

One, the Concerto is a revised upgraded Symphony... two, the RPX-300 is 2700 to the Concerto 670.  It had better be better.


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## kwkarth

Quote: 





gogogasgas said:


> OK - high current headphone amps are the ticket.
> 
> KWKARTH: looking at the Corda amps, would it be wise to choose a model without the DAC to keep the signal path pure? I see that the Concerto offers a DAC free solution. If I also wanted a DAC, I could use the Stagedac for a two-box solution. That being said, I wonder if the headphone amp in the Concerto is as good as the one in the Symphony 2?
> *** I also just noticed that the Cordas models use Opamps. Hhhmm.
> ...


 

 Just because an amp has an integrated DAC, doesn't mean you have to use it.  It becomes a switchable input like anything else.


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## QUIGS

Quote: 





emelius said:


> to be perfectly honest, I was underwhelmed by most everything Woo had at CanJam with the exception of the WA2 which, as nbourbaki brought to my attention, had crazy good synergy with the Beyer T1...they had many headphones available to try with their amps, but not the LCD-2...some did take the LCD-2 over to that room, however...
> 
> if you're ready to spend that kinda money, why not try the Liquid Fire or one of the Eddie Current models?...


 

 I just came from Eddie Current's site. The Zana Deux is nice, and I have heard that the Cavalli Liquid Fire is a good match for the LCD-2. Any word on when the Liquid Fire will be available?


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## gogogasgas

*No further word from those of you who may have tried the LCD-2 with a Rudistor or Violectric? Lehmann Black Cube II? Slee? Luxman P-1u?*
  Quote: 





> Just because an amp has an integrated DAC, doesn't mean you have to use it.  It becomes a switchable input like anything else.


 
  Yes, but headphones like these deserve the cleanest path to their door. Best to keep the digital gear away from the analogue signal path. The digital gadget's unwanted nasties could get amplified along with the music and sent to the headphones creating haze, greyness and perhaps even hardness. A two box set-up would provided separation and the ability to place the DAC further out of harm's way on another shelf.


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## kwkarth

Quote: 





gogogasgas said:


> *No further word from those of you who may have tried the LCD-2 with a Rudistor or Violectric? Lehmann Black Cube II? Slee? Luxman P-1u?*
> Yes, but headphones like these deserve the cleanest path to their door. Best to keep the digital gear away from the analogue signal path. The digital gadget's unwanted nasties could get amplified along with the music and sent to the headphones creating haze, greyness and perhaps even hardness. A two box set-up would provided separation and the ability to place the DAC further out of harm's way on another shelf.


 

 I suspect that Dr. Meier knows enough to keep the signal path clean, but then again, just get the Concerto, and don't worry about it.


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## theppd

I believe I saw somewhere in the threads some happy guy's impressions who has listened LCD-2 with Luxman and WooAudio. Maybe it was in the CanJam thread or in Audeze LCD-2 thread.


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## alota

Hello, did anyone have an experience with balanced beta-22?
  aldo


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## QUIGS

How about the Einar Sound VC-01i?


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## SemiAudiophile

For portable amps, I recommend the iBasso D10 (mines has topkit installed). The synergy is spot on, full of energy, musical punch, 3D layering, and good detail. I realize it's probably not the best amp out there, but it's darn good for a portable and it gives me a level of sound where I feel is satisfactory or "good enough" until I can afford another full size amp. I'm guessing it's pushing out 70-80% out of the LCD-2. As of right now, I still prefer it over the Asgard, which I find ironically to be dull and lifeless in comparison.


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## kunalraiker

Would audio gd amps like the C-2 be a fine option.


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## Ypoknons

The Concerto is neutral, I've heard it and several others agree. IMO it is a bit pricey, it's a good AD797 amp with some nice extras you usually don't get - digital volume control (is that the right term? At least the position of the potentiometer is measured digitally) and crossfeed, pretty much.


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## Solude

Concerto being pricey keeps popping up.  What in people's opinion cost less and delivers as much?


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## Ypoknons

Well Meier's asking for about $670, the local shops are asking $800 >.< The Concerto is roughly on par with the GCHA, that's is a bit warmer and was about $500 ... I don't really know what the Burson is going for in the US, again it's in the same class, a bit warmer, the local distributors are asking for about $600. Compared with these it depends on whether the X-feed and volume control are worth it, if it's that important I guess it could be a steal. I don't know the Concerto compares to some of the value challengers like the Audio GDs, Schiit, Dynalos and some of the DIY designs like the M^3, haven't had the chance to sample them. 
   
  I mean, personally I'd pay the premium because I really like that volume control, but I still think a it's little bit pricey.


----------



## Skylab

If people actually looked at the amount of power supply filtration, and some of the rest of the internals of the Concerto, I highly doubt they would try to say it was expensive.


----------



## Ypoknons

If that's right, it's cool. I agree the amp does have a deep black background. I don't have that kind of technical expertise to compare amp internals (I did look), and I highly respect Skylab's testing methodology and range of expertise. If my subjective evaluation of value was off, I apologize.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





semiaudiophile said:


> For portable amps, I recommend the iBasso D10 (mines has topkit installed). The synergy is spot on, full of energy, musical punch, 3D layering, and good detail. I realize it's probably not the best amp out there, but it's darn good for a portable and it gives me a level of sound where I feel is satisfactory or "good enough" until I can afford another full size amp. I'm guessing it's pushing out 70-80% out of the LCD-2. As of right now, I still prefer it over the Asgard, which I find ironically to be dull and lifeless in comparison.


 

 The Asgard should liven up as it burns in over the first 40 or so hours.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





skylab said:


> If people actually looked at the amount of power supply filtration, and some of the rest of the internals of the Concerto, I highly doubt they would try to say it was expensive.


 

 I would tend to agree.  The Concerto seems like a lot of amp for the money.


----------



## Solude

Concerto is $670 shipped anywhere.  Buying it for more is just silly. GCHA is $995, GS-1 is $900, Burson is $700 all plus shipping.  So in the case of the Burson is ~$780 to your door and it got thrashed by the Concerto in the 6 Moon review.


----------



## Ypoknons

Moon Audio has $500 GCHA's. I can get the Burson $600-650 from a local dealer. But I have no interest in arguing, I won't deny the Concerto is a great, and plus I shouldn't be arguing against my #1 choice anyways 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I've heard the Burson and the Concerto side-by-side, so I have my own opinions.


----------



## Skylab

I heard the GCHA, and based on that I would easily say the Concerto is worth the additional 170, but of course that is just my opinion.  I have never heard the Burson.


----------



## Solude

Touche on Moon-Audio price.  But comparing one reseller's liquidation price to another's full retail isn't fair.  In other news the O2 is a bit pricey compared to the O2 sold in 04


----------



## Ypoknons

That's cool. I see this will take some rigorous re-evaluation for the Concerto I'm going to enjoy every minute of it


----------



## Solude

To correct myself, the Burson includes shipping.


----------



## achristilaw

Quote: 





ypoknons said:


> Moon Audio has $500 GCHA's. I can get the Burson $600-650 from a local dealer. But I have no interest in arguing, I won't deny the Concerto is a great, and plus I shouldn't be arguing against my #1 choice anyways
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


 The Burson does O.K., and is a competitive alternative for entry level in driving the LCD-2. Not the last word in dynamics or frequency extension but reasonably adequate. I like it with the Sennheiser 600 and has "Home Theater" duty with the same.
   
  It will not be an over-achiever in concert with the LCD-2 however!!


----------



## QUIGS

How about the RPx33 or the RP-8 from Rudistor?


----------



## Solude

I really liked my Rudistor, but it would be an anti LCD-2 amp being tubey in the smooth, weighty, bloom style.  Good for a leanish can like the Beyer 880 I had at the time but just too far off neutral to line up with the LCD-2.  And expensive.  Good room heaters though


----------



## kwkarth

Oh, please, please, please, come up with something that I can spend a LOT of money on, because it can't be any good unless it costs a lot of dinero!, and especially a lot more than my neighbor's head amp system!


----------



## superjohny

all i can think of something expensive being around or greater than 2K is rudistor rpx-300 then=> gs-x/BUDA+DPS,


----------



## thinker

been listening for a while on LCD-2 with Lehmann audio black cube linear usb and its better than with tube amps that i have used.The Lehmann keeps the control on 20db output and the performance seems to have the right distance.The overall performance is natural and smooth,its unbelievable natural.Hope you all get the LCD soon


----------



## gogogasgas

Quote:


skylab said:


> I heard the GCHA, and based on that I would easily say the Concerto is worth the additional 170, but of course that is just my opinion.  I have never heard the Burson.


 

 Quote:


achristilaw said:


> The Burson does O.K., and is a competitive alternative for entry level in driving the LCD-2. Not the last word in dynamics or frequency extension but reasonably adequate. I like it with the Sennheiser 600 and has "Home Theater" duty with the same.
> 
> It will not be an over-achiever in concert with the LCD-2 however!!


 
   
*I totally agree. From what I've read, the LCD-2s need the best. They do not deserve poor compromises 'down-stream'*.
   
  Audio engineers and HiFi'ers have a wonderful saying: S**T IN, S**T OUT. In other words, why would you buy such a wonderful set of cans and hook them up to something like an iPod and a desktop amp? I know this is an exaggerated example, but you would fail to hear what the LCD-2s are capable of if you make poor choices in the audio chain. Also, the neutral and revealing nature of the headphones would make listening to music unpleasant by showing-up 'bad' compromises.
   
  You would'nt buy an Aston Martin and stick a Daewoo engine in it. It doesn't have to be an ultra expensive engine, just a damn good one that suits the attributes of the car. If you can't get the associated gear to make the LCDs 'sing', then buy different a set of headphones that would compliment your equipment and source material.
   
  I would love a new set of quality headphones, and the LCD-2 are looking like they are going supplant the HD800s as the preferred replacement for my HD650s. However, I believe it would be a waste of money to hook the LCD-2s up to anything less than a very good to excellent headphone amplifier. I would rather wait for an amp that would do LCD-2s justice and really enhance my enjoyment of music.
   
  Which leads me to....
   
  Quote:


quigs said:


> How about the RPx33 or the RP-8 from Rudistor?





  Yes, yes! What about the Rubistors? The whole solid state range looks like an obvious choice for a neutral, high current amp for the LCD-2s. 
   
  Quote:


solude said:


> I really liked my Rudistor, but it would be an anti LCD-2 amp being tubey in the smooth, weighty, bloom style.  Good for a leanish can like the Beyer 880 I had at the time but just too far off neutral to line up with the LCD-2.  And expensive.  Good room heaters though


 
  So, the Rudistor tube amp would be unsuitable because of the 'warming' effect it has on the sound; something the neutral LCD-2 doesn't need. What of the solid state Rudistor offerings??


----------



## thinker

Quote: 





gogogasgas said:


> Quote:
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


 
  I have tested these already with many amps and yes i pod is not bad with Lcd-2 and i have already had not so good results with some amps.These headphones do perform great already with cheaper amps and expensive amps wich perform great with other phones can fail with the LCD-2.


----------



## gogogasgas

Quote: 





> I've been listening for a while on LCD-2 with Lehmann audio black cube linear usb and its better than with tube amps that i have used


 
  A good bit of harmony with the Black Cube, eh?
  Quote: 





> I have tested these already with many amps and yes i pod is not bad with Lcd-2 and i have already had not so good results with some amps.These headphones do perform great already with cheaper amps and expensive amps wich perform great with other phones can fail with the LCD-2.


 
  Good to know that you could use the iPod with the LCD-2s. However, the combo could be a tad ostentatious when used on the move about town....
   
  Cheap or expensive; no matter. We are looking for quality here, not necessarily the size of the outlay. In part, could the differences between the amps be attributed to the higher current that some models provide? Perhaps the amps that fared poorly with the LCD-2s would in turn 'swing' with a high impedance design such as a Sennheiser?
   
  PS I was fascinated by the image you ('thinker') use: perhaps there are others who might also be interested to know that...
   
  "CINDY – 12 track vinyl LP on collectable York Records label from 1973 (FYK418).
 A rare solo LP recorded by Settlers vocalist Cindy Kent. This album is also said to be one of the most obscure releases on the collectable York Records Label."


----------



## Solude

My Rudistor was the hybrid model RP5.1 if memory serves.  The tube sound wasn't slight by any stretch.  Basically though a unique sound I also felt the value was rather poor.  Visually impressive but also not without issues, mine has a transformer hum that was audible throughout the room.  It was different than my HeadAmp Lite but not better really.  It later was replaced and crushed by the HeadAmp Reference, now called GS-X.
   
  The SS options are much higher powered but the rated specs don't jive.  16v @ 32 Ohm is 500mA or 8W.  But max output is 1.5W @ 16 Ohm or 4.9V and 305mA.  And THD is given at 13V @ 32 Ohm which is 405mA or 5.25W.  Into the LCD-2 13V is 260mA and 3.4W.  Its all academic though since really we listen below 1mW on average.  Anyway, on paper it reads like every other opamp with buffer output amp available.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but stating no negative feedback on an opamp is misleading since the opamp handles feedback internally to some degree.


----------



## superjohny

gogogasgas was the first one to state that lcd-2 should not be paired with a warm sound dac or amp. too bad i just got an audio-gd reference8


----------



## gogogasgas

Solude- Rudistor: As you said, the Rudistors carry a premium price tag. Colouration to that degree, and transformer hum, is really quite unacceptable. There were other quality issues? Perhaps manufacturing quality control is not as it should be in Italy. Thanks for the tip. Perhaps it's why they discontinued that model.
   
  The figures you quote for the solid state amp> do they belong to the GS-X? That's an opamp design?


----------



## gogogasgas

Quote: 





> gogogasgas was the first one to state that lcd-2 should not be paired with a warm sound dac or amp. too bad i just got an audio-gd reference 8.


 
  Well, the LCD-2 "should not" be paired with a warm DAC/amp if you are striving for neutrality.


----------



## Currawong

Reminds me, I'll need to see if I can't borrow a Luxman P-1 again to try them with.


----------



## gogogasgas

Quote: 





currawong said:


> Reminds me, I'll need to see if I can't borrow a Luxman P-1 again to try them with.


 

 Yes, please! That's a combo that could work. On an HD800 thread, a poster mentioned a Japanese review of the P-1u with the HD800s. The reviewer gave the combo the thumbs down. Perhaps the P-1u would sing with the LCD-2s?


----------



## Solude

No no the specs are for the Rudi NX-03.  Won't even hurt your head with the other SS numbers on the site.  Don't want to revive the war from 04 between Rudi and Gilmore but yes the PCB quality is not great.  Though supposedly normal the amp was also a good alternative to acid for erasing finger prints or melting down solder 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  The model wasn't stopped, it was upgraded now sold as a quad tube model RP-8 for $1700.


----------



## oqvist

How warm is the LCD-2 relative to other headphones? See my sig for references that makes sense to me.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





oqvist said:


> How warm is the LCD-2 relative to other headphones? See my sig for references that makes sense to me.


 

 Some might call them "warm" but think it is more accurate to refer to them as full, whole bodied, detailed, rich, nuanced...  They're all those things rolled into one.  The treble, while being very detailed, has no "spikes" to it unlike the HD-800 and the T1.  The bass is much fuller, more impactful, and goes deeper than either of the two aforementioned headphones, yet without any hint of intrusion into the glorious mids.  
   
  This is a very "organic" sounding headphone, as opposed to a clinical, sterile, or dark sounding one. It's sound strikes as effortless, and completely unstrained.
   
  Spotlessly "clean" is another term that comes to mind.  The Pro-900s lack the cleanness of the ED8.  The ED8 lacks the cleanness of the LCD-2.  The LCD-2 goes much deeper than either of the Ultrasones, yet the midrange and high end are spotless and pristine.  The Ultrasones, are "punchier."  The sonics of the LCD-2 are completely integrated from top to bottom.


----------



## oqvist

I have read all about the LCD-2 in the last couple of onths so wasn´t looking for such a thorough reply. Thanks anyway . I more wanted to get an idea of where the "average" tone would be. Similar to the T1 (warmer/colder), ED 8 (warmer/colder etc on the same system.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





oqvist said:


> I have read all about the LCD-2 in the last couple of onths so wasn´t looking for such a thorough reply. Thanks anyway . I more wanted to get an idea of where the "average" tone would be. Similar to the T1 (warmer/colder), ED 8 (warmer/colder etc on the same system.


 
  Did my reply satisfy your question?


----------



## oqvist

Not sure. Maybe but I didn´t understand it. Would you say it´s overall brighter then the Pro 900 and ED 8. You have heard them on the same source/amp?  Maybe it´s easier if I say if they have more or less "body" then both.


----------



## Skylab

Smoother across the board than the Ed 8 - they have an upper bass peak and a bit of a treble peak that the LCD-2 do not have.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





oqvist said:


> Not sure. Maybe but I didn´t understand it. Would you say it´s overall brighter then the Pro 900 and ED 8. You have heard them on the same source/amp?  Maybe it´s easier if I say if they have more or less "body" then both.


 

 It's not "brighter" than either of the Ultrasones, but it's far more detailed and clear.  The LCD-2 is much "faster" (sorry Sky) than either of the Ultrasones.  Does that make sense?  I think it will, once you hear them.  It easily has as much body than either of the Ultrasones, but again, that body is much better and more organically and tightly integrated with the rest of the sonic profile than it is with the Ultrasones.


----------



## oqvist

Gah you are reviewing it. It´s not what I am after.
   
  I don´t care about speed, extension, finess or neutralness. On my headphones I can say the DX 1000 is the warmest followed by Fostex T50RP, Kees Modded Pro 900/ED 8 then T1 and then SA5000 is the brightest
  It differ a lot between the DX 1000 and the T1/SA5000.
  If we ignore detail retrieval, soundstage size and all that where do  the LCD-2 slot in here when dumb listening?.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





oqvist said:


> Gah you are reviewing it. It´s not what I am after.
> 
> I don´t care about speed, extension, finess or neutralness. On my headphones I can say the DX 1000 is the warmest followed by Fostex T50RP, Kees Modded Pro 900/ED 8 then T1 and then SA5000 is the brightest
> It differ a lot between the DX 1000 and the T1/SA5000.
> If we ignore detail retrieval, soundstage size and all that where do  the LCD-2 slot in here when dumb listening?.


 
  Gah back at ya!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  These things aren't like anything else you have.  You need to hear them for yourself.
 Sky, you want to take another crack at it?


----------



## oqvist

I have one on preorder. Thought you guys knew that 
   
  Thought it would be easy to sort out headphones in regard of how warm/cold they are. I find it quite easy with mine. Maybe I am the only one having that skill lol


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





oqvist said:


> I have one on preorder. Thought you guys knew that
> 
> *Thought it would be easy to sort out headphones in regard of how warm/cold they are*. I find it quite easy with mine. *Maybe I am the only one having that skill lol*


 

 Not at all, it's just that it's difficult to fairly pigeon hole the general sonic coloration of these things because they don't fit in any traditional pigeon holes.  Calling something bright implies it's peaky, not detailed, calling something forward implies it's recessed in treble or bass or both, calling something warm implies details are missing, which they're not.
   
  Do you have a sonic pigeon hole for neutral, but without lack in any area of the spectrum?


----------



## Skylab

I think that's the issue - I find the LCD-2 to be very neutral.  I wouldn't describe them as either warm or cold.  I think they're very neutral. 
   
  But I wouldn't describe the Ed 8 as warm or cold, either, that's the rub.  They for sure are not as neutral as the LCD-2.  But I can't really describe them as being either generally warm, or generally cold.
   
  I found the HD800 to be a little cold.  I find the DX1000 to be a little warm.  The LCD-2 is right down the middle.  It has excellent bass weight and extension, but that does not make it warm in my estimation.
   
  I don't know if that helps...


----------



## oqvist

That helps a bit except I haven´t heard the HD 800 of course. T1 is that also a bit on the brighter side of things compared to the LCD-2 overall? For dumb listening that is when you just listen to music don´t dig deep.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





tvrboy said:


> How do you think the LCD-2 would perform with my EF-5? I know this amp has more than enough power, even though it's probably not the last word in sound quality. I'm interested in the LCD-2 because I already have this amp designed specifically for orthos...


 

 I would also be interested in an answer to this, has anyone heard the LCD-2/EF5 combo?


----------



## takezo

i would wait for the upcoming amp, not yet officially disclosed, from schiit audio...
  it should power the lc2 and he-6 without compromise, at a ludicrously reasonable price.
  probably sometime next year though... something to keep an eye out for.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





takezo said:


> i would wait for the upcoming amp, not yet officially disclosed, from schiit audio...
> it should power the lc2 and he-6 without compromise, at a ludicrously reasonable price.
> probably sometime next year though... something to keep an eye out for.


 

 You mean there's something besides the Asgard and Valhalla coming?


----------



## takezo

i was told early next year though. if you contact them i'm sure they'll give you
  the details.


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





oqvist said:


> That helps a bit except I haven´t heard the HD 800 of course. T1 is that also a bit on the brighter side of things compared to the LCD-2 overall? For dumb listening that is when you just listen to music don´t dig deep.


 

 I have never found the T1 bright, although some people seem to.  I think of the T1 also as being incredibly natural sounding.


----------



## gogogasgas

Quote:


solude said:


> No no the specs are for the Rudi NX-03.  Won't even hurt your head with the other SS numbers on the site.  Don't want to revive the war from 04 between Rudi and Gilmore but yes the PCB quality is not great.  Though supposedly normal the amp was also a good alternative to acid for erasing finger prints or melting down solder
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  The 'War of '04' sounds like a very interesting thread. Like you said, best not to go there. However, your comments on the Rudistor amps interest me. The Rudistor models are based around Opamps, yes?
   
*So if someone was after a quality solid state amplifier that is NOT based around Opamps, what are we left with?*
  The Luxman P-1u? The Violectrics? The Phonitor? Lehmann Black Cube? Grace Design m902? Schiit models? Are any of these a fit? Apart from the Lehmann (which someone has commented on positively), has anyone tried these with the LCD-2s yet? Other solid state options of the non-kit, non Opamp variety?
   
*Some links on each of the amps mentioned above: Luxman P-1u, Violectric, Lehmann Audio, Schiit, Phonitor, and Grace.*
   
  If I was to succumb to the lure of tubes again (never say never), I must say that the the *Leben CS300X* looks like a contender. *Skylab's* comments seem to give weight to his view:
   
   
  Quote: 





> "The Leben CS300X has made me re-think what's possible from a headphone amp in general, and tube amps in specific.  While it has a highly musical, engaging sound, it's not the least bit tubey or syrupy - in fact it's astonishingly neutral and transparent.  Due to its being push-pull, and transformer-coupled, it works well with a wide variety of headphones.  It drove my LCD-2, DX1000, T1, W1000X, Ed 8, and D7000 all better than I had ever heard before.  It's so good I wish I had one in every room."


 
   
   
*KWKARTH*- your comments on the sound signature (or lack?) of the LCD-2s are excellent and really help in the quest for suitable associated equipment. Thank you!


----------



## SemiAudiophile

From my experience, Grace m902 was not a good match with the LCD-2. It sounded thin, lacked 3d image/layering, punch, etc. It wasn't bad or anything, just doesn't really show what the LCD-2 is capable of. LCD-2 is a weird, picky headphone to power. I say weird because it sounds fine straight out of an ipod, but give it wrong amplification and it would sound bland. I'm not sure what it wants.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





gogogasgas said:


> ...*So if someone was after a quality solid state amplifier that is NOT based around Opamps, what are we left with?*
> The Luxman P-1u? The Violectrics? The Phonitor? Lehmann Black Cube? Grace Design m902? Are any of these a fit? Apart from the Lehmann (which someone has commented on positively), has anyone tried these with the LCD-2s yet? Other solid state options of the non-kit, non Opamp variety?
> 
> If I was to succumb to the lure of tubes again (never say never), I must say that the the *Leben CS300X* looks like a contender. *Skylab's* comments seem to give weight to his view:
> ...


 
  Thanks, if you're wanting to consider non op-amp based SS amps, why isn't the Asgard on this list?


----------



## gogogasgas

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> Thanks, if you're wanting to consider non op-amp based SS amps, why isn't the Asgard on this list?


 

 I don't know anything much about the Schiit models. Thanks, they are now on the list.
   
*Info on the Schiit Asgard - HERE*


----------



## gogogasgas

Quote: 





semiaudiophile said:


> From my experience, Grace m902 was not a good match with the LCD-2. It sounded thin, lacked 3d image/layering, punch, etc. It wasn't bad or anything, just doesn't really show what the LCD-2 is capable of. LCD-2 is a weird, picky headphone to power. I say weird because it sounds fine straight out of an ipod, but give it wrong amplification and it would sound bland. I'm not sure what it wants.


 

 That's a good tip on the Grace, thanks. I wonder if the mixed results you are getting is because of the neutral/revealing nature of the LCD-2s?
   
*Info on the Grace M902 - HERE*


----------



## achristilaw

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> Thanks, if you're wanting to consider non op-amp based SS amps, why isn't the Asgard on this list?


 


 Don't know your budget but the Peak Amp from TTVJ is a good bet, I bet. I'm on the loaner list and will know more in a few weeks.


----------



## achristilaw

Quote: 





takezo said:


> i would wait for the upcoming amp, not yet officially disclosed, from schiit audio...
> it should power the lc2 and he-6 without compromise, at a ludicrously reasonable price.
> probably sometime next year though... something to keep an eye out for.


 


 w-wa-wa-wh..at??  Without compromise?  Really? When did you hear it?


----------



## gogogasgas

Thanks. Please share your views on the TTVJ Peak if you get a loaner.
   
Info on the TTVJ Peak - HERE


----------



## thinker

Quote: 





gogogasgas said:


> PS I was fascinated by the image you ('thinker') use: perhaps there are others who might also be interested to know that...


 
  if somebody is interested      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPTPt7Mq440


----------



## gogogasgas

Hey, I know that song! I used to watch Morcombe and Wise all the time too! But, we digress...


----------



## thinker

Quote: 





semiaudiophile said:


> LCD-2 is a weird, picky headphone to power. I say weird because it sounds fine straight out of an ipod, but give it wrong amplification and it would sound bland. I'm not sure what it wants.


 
  This is also my experience


----------



## QUIGS

I have read a couple more reviews on the Einar Sound VC-01i sounds like a good amp. Would this be a good choice? Would it be able to drive the LCD-2 to its full potenial? For those of you who have heard the Einar and Concerto how do the two compare?


----------



## thinker

the darkness has now gone,i put from computer via usb to Lehmann BCL usb,its very clear with the right tone as from i pod but with greater soundstage.I will use this combo for LCD-2.I had Audio-gd sources but they are way to warm for LCD-2.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





achristilaw said:


> Don't know your budget but the Peak Amp from TTVJ is a good bet, I bet. I'm on the loaner list and will know more in a few weeks.


 
  I didn't get a chance to listen to the Peak with the LCD-2s at the show.  Bummer, as I'm sure it's a great amp.


----------



## gogogasgas

*Schiit Audio Update:*
  
  Quote: 





takezo said:


> i would wait for the upcoming amp, not yet officially disclosed, from schiit audio...
> it should power the lc2 and he-6 without compromise, at a ludicrously reasonable price.
> probably sometime next year though... something to keep an eye out for.


 
  Quote:


kwkarth said:


> You mean there's something besides the Asgard and Valhalla coming?


 
*I got in touch with (the very helpful) Jason Stoddard, co-founder of Schiit Audio regarding new models on the horizon. His response was:*
  "We have some customers using the Asgard (with the LCD-2s) and consider it a good match. And yes, although we don't typically discuss future models, we are considering a much higher-powered, much more expensive model that would be great for orthodynamic headphones. It won't be available until the end of the year, or maybe early 2011, so if you're looking for something near-term, we're probably not the answer. I can't stress enough that, since this is a future, untested product, dates can slip, specs can change, etc--I really don't want anyone who's looking for an answer *now* to wait for us"
   
*I also asked him about the Schiit design philosophy:*
  "Nope, no op-amps in our Schiit! We're exclusively fully-discrete, Class-A, zero-feedback designs, throughout the range. As far as voltages go, everything we make is 115/230 switchable."
   
*And since I'm 'making do' with a pair of Senn HD650s until I make a decision on my next cans, I thought I would ask him about those as well:*
  "The Asgard/650 is my daytime "work" combo--it's a fairly amazing combo all around."
   
*A link to the Schiit site: HERE.*


----------



## kwkarth

Verrry interesting!  Guess I'd better save my shekels for January!
   
  Thanks for the info *gogogasgas !*


----------



## thinker

had the chance to try out with different dacs and amps the LCD-2 and found that the dac is more important than the amp,this is why it sounds good with i pod.Tried also from Lehmann BCL usb  line pre output to tubeamps and the differences between amps became quite marginal.Even via Moth the sound was clean and clear.Using the Audio-gd dac 19 dsp resulted in that veiled dark sound.


----------



## gogogasgas

Thinker- I suppose you are saying that the LCD-2 is very revealing of the source. I have you tried hooking it up to a turntable and phono stage? IE Turntable>phono>headphone amp> LCD2. It could be interesting to see what your findings are.


----------



## gogogasgas

Don't know anything much about the Einar Sound products. Geared for the desktop more that than HiFi, but that's only because of the size. Sound quality could be good. A couple of on-line reviews read OK. Seems expensive for what's on offer, though there are balanced connections on-board.
   
Einar Sound - HERE.


----------



## thinker

Quote: 





gogogasgas said:


> Thinker- I suppose you are saying that the LCD-2 is very revealing of the source. I have you tried hooking it up to a turntable and phono stage? IE Turntable>phono>headphone amp> LCD2. It could be interesting to see what your findings are.


 
  Cannot answer this because i dont own anymore analog source but my findings are and i tested also today that the "first" source is most important and secondly the amp and cables.You can complitely damage the soundquality with wrong source>Dac
  combo.The dac should not have those analog attributes wich softens the digital sound, the LCD-2 seems to  like raw material and raw material should be feeded to keep the LCD-2  healthy.This is a non-compromise headphone.When you get it you are awarded for probably the best headphone soundquality ever.


----------



## gogogasgas

Quote: 





thinker said:


> Cannot answer this because i dont own anymore analog source but my findings are and i tested also today that the "first" source is most important and secondly the amp and cables.You can complitely damage the soundquality with wrong source>Dac combo.The dac should not have those analog attributes wich softens the digital sound, the LCD-2 seems to  like raw material and raw material should be feeded to keep the LCD-2  healthy.This is a non-compromise headphone.When you get it you are awarded for probably the best headphone soundquality ever.


 

 HHHmm. Sounds like a classic example of garbage in, garbage out. Poor source material in, poor sound quality out. The better the DAC, the better the LCD-2s sound, right? So, have you fed the amp/headphones any high-res digital material and then tried listening to MP3 versions of the same tracks?


----------



## kwkarth

I have an Auraliti digital music player here for evaluation.  I'm looking forward to listening to it with the LCD-2s.
http://www.auraliti.com/


----------



## thinker

Quote: 





gogogasgas said:


> HHHmm. Sounds like a classic example of garbage in, garbage out. Poor source material in, poor sound quality out. The better the DAC, the better the LCD-2s sound, right? *Yes* So, have you fed the amp/headphones any high-res digital material and then tried listening to MP3 versions of the same tracks?


 
  this probably sounds weird but i believe firstly my ears secondly my brain and thoughts.320 files against wav or flac, i dont get a difference with LCD-2 headphones when driven with good a DAC , both files sound heavenly


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





thinker said:


> this probably sounds weird but i believe firstly my ears secondly my brain and thoughts.320 files against wav or flac, i dont get a difference with LCD-2 headphones when driven with good a DAC , both files sound heavenly


 
  We're back to the weakest link in the chain sort of thing.  With the right DAC and amp, I can believe what you're saying.  You may find a more resolving amp that would let you hear the difference, then again, maybe your DAC is doing such a good job or your source material is not that revealing, ...  You see what I mean, there are many variables.


----------



## gogogasgas

Quote:


thinker said:


> this probably sounds weird but i believe firstly my ears secondly my brain and thoughts.320 files against wav or flac, i dont get a difference with LCD-2 headphones when driven with good a DAC , both files sound heavenly


 
  Always trust 'dem ears.  I like the "heavenly" part of your post. These phones are ticking the boxes.
  You might find what Kwkarth discovers regarding the Auraliti digital music player of interest. Not having an in-built track selector/ interface may let it down (if I have read the manufacture's website correctly, you need an iPod or a PC/MAC)
  PS No turntable? Tisk, tisk!


----------



## oqvist

Quote: 





thinker said:


> had the chance to try out with different dacs and amps the LCD-2 and found that the dac is more important than the amp,this is why it sounds good with i pod.Tried also from Lehmann BCL usb  line pre output to tubeamps and the differences between amps became quite marginal.Even via Moth the sound was clean and clear.Using the Audio-gd dac 19 dsp resulted in that veiled dark sound.


 

 Reading your impressions I think you should try a Keces 131 mk 2. I love my DAC19 and your impressions seem to indicate the LCD-2 would synergize better with it then the Ipod (since I find the ipod lacking sub bass big time with most if not all headphones I own.)
   
  Keces 131 mk 2 is all but dark and veiled quite the opposite. It has the dynamics I need anyway too. It´s not as soft or analogue and real sounding as the DAC19 can be but if you are after maximum PRaT or such for rock they do deliver. And no treble roll off from what I can tell either.
   
  I really like this combo because they are so different yet both very rewarding to listen to.


----------



## Solude

I think Thinker was trying to say that the LCD-2 is a reference can in that it sounds like the source connected to it.  If the source is dark and veiled, the LCD-2 will be as well.  If the source is clean and clear, the LCD-2 is too.  If the source is warm...  If the source is lean...  Also says the LCD-2 tends to sound more like the source than the amp... within reason.
   
  I think the reason there are splits on how the Meier Concerto sounds is the same thing.  I'll know for sure soon enough, but get the feeling its also neutral and just passes along what its being fed which is why some think its a little lean while others say its dynamic.


----------



## gogogasgas

I don't want to stray this really interesting and informative thread off course, but...
  I had a listen to some Weiss equipment this week. Possibly the best sound I've heard from digital. More info - WEISS.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





solude said:


> I think Thinker was trying to say that the LCD-2 is a reference can in that it sounds like the source connected to it.  If the source is dark and veiled, the LCD-2 will be as well.  If the source is clean and clear, the LCD-2 is too.  If the source is warm...  If the source is lean...  Also says the LCD-2 tends to sound more like the source than the amp... within reason.
> 
> I think the reason there are splits on how the Meier Concerto sounds is the same thing.  I'll know for sure soon enough, but get the feeling its also neutral and just passes along what its being fed which is why some think its a little lean while others say its dynamic.


 

 The LCD-2 ... has assumed control (of the signal chain) (to the tune of 2112).


----------



## takezo

Quote: 





grokit said:


> The LCD-2 ... has assumed control (of the signal chain) (to the tune of 2112).


 

 is that geddy's tune?


----------



## santacore

Just got a new toy in that should play nice with the LCD-2's I should be getting very soon. http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/500176/violectric-v200


----------



## thinker

Quote: 





solude said:


> I think Thinker was trying to say that the LCD-2 is a reference can in that it sounds like the source connected to it.  If the source is dark and veiled, the LCD-2 will be as well.  If the source is clean and clear, the LCD-2 is too.  If the source is warm...  If the source is lean...  Also says the LCD-2 tends to sound more like the source than the amp... within reason.


 

 The LCD-2 appers to be warm when you hear it at the first time then later you realize that its very source related, the LCD-2 dont like that some flavor is added it reproduces the music how it is in real life and the music in real life is colorful .
  If you buy a good or expensive DAC wich is on the warm side it probably dont match with LCD.I like to recommend a safe combo for LCD-2, wich is very musical clean,clear and  has the right tonal balance and gives enough control to LCD-2.
  This combo offers all the 3D images wich is one of LCD-2 strenghts.This combo does not prefer a certain type of music ,from Jazz to Classic all sounds great.This combo does not take much space from your table its quite compact.
  I use Mac pro laptop> belkin USB cable>Lehman BCL  USB> LCD-2.The possibility to go wrong with those super expensive sources is high with LCD.Its also important to notice ,that the stock Apple USB cable doesnt suit with this combo and i found that the Belkin USB cable suits best ,the timing is spot on .I will put down probably later this day a paper where Lehmann audio explaines how computer based data should operated optimally.
  .....and please get the LCD-2 first and then buy the amp and source otherwise the second hand market will be filled up.


----------



## gogogasgas

Quote:


santacore said:


> Just got a new toy in that should play nice with the LCD-2's I should be getting very soon.


 
  It would be great to read your report on the Violectric! Not only how it sounds with the LCD-2s, but also the HD800s.
   
*Another review on the Violetric - HERE.*


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





takezo said:


> is that geddy's tune?


 

 End of side one I believe


----------



## Lunatique

Quote: 





monotune said:


> Jumping in this thread. I thought this was a good place because I own the Edition 8, LCD-2 & HD800's. I diid spend some time with the T1 as well. In complete agreement. HD800's really light in the bass dept. no matter the amp. The T1 was better but still the LCD-2 just murder's those two. I have been using the iDecco at home and ALO RX & SR-71A on the road. My favorite in the ALO RX & iMod with the LCD-2 is killing me. Everyday it is better. Burn in time  has been a lot but it was great out of the box. It just gets sweeter everyday. I have heard from quite a few people that the Cavali Liquid Fire is the thing to get when it comes out. I think that will be my first nice home unit.


 
  Just out of curiosity--you said that the LCD2 slaughters the HD800 and T1, but you didn't say anything about the ED8?


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





lunatique said:


> Just out of curiosity--you said that the LCD2 slaughters the HD800 and T1, but you didn't say anything about the ED8?


 

 The ED8 isn't even in the same league.  Not worthy to be compared.  ED8 is a fun can, but not a serious one IMHO.


----------



## Lunatique

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> The ED8 isn't even in the same league.  Not worthy to be compared.  ED8 is a fun can, but not a serious one IMHO.


 
  Oh wow, that drastic, huh?
   
  I'm counting the days until they tell me my LCD2 is ready. In a way I almost wish they end up being borderline case for me, just so that I have an excuse to take it on a trip with me so I can compare it to the 007MKII. It's kind of silly, but if the LCD2's impress so much that I'm willing to forget how much I loved the 007MKII, then that means my headphone journey is over and I'll never hear the 007MKII's again. But that could also be a blessing, because it would save me from spending the $4k on that Stax rig.


----------



## Markj

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> The ED8 isn't even in the same league.  Not worthy to be compared.  ED8 is a fun can, but not a serious one IMHO.


 

 I like LCD-2 but for fast rock and pop Edition8 wins by margin in PRAT,  clarity, detail retrieval, bass slam and sparkle. For classical, T1 powered by Phonitor is just magic ( with sacds). If I would have to keep just one hp, it would be LCD-2 (with its shortcomings) it is just pleasure with any music or movies.


----------



## QUIGS

Quote: 





markj said:


> I like LCD-2 but for fast rock and pop Edition8 wins by margin in PRAT,  clarity, detail retrieval, bass slam and sparkle. For classical, T1 powered by Phonitor is just magic ( with sacds). If I would have to keep just one hp, it would be LCD-2 (with its shortcomings) it is just pleasure with any music or movies.


 

 How are the LCD-2 with the Phonitor?


----------



## thread

Quote: 





solude said:


> I really liked my Rudistor, but it would be an anti LCD-2 amp being tubey in the smooth, weighty, bloom style.  Good for a leanish can like the Beyer 880 I had at the time but just too far off neutral to line up with the LCD-2.  And expensive.  Good room heaters though


 

 I have high expectations for my RPX-33 when the LCD-2 arrives. My RudiStor does have a sound that is slightly warm on the tuby sound, but I've *never* been disappointed with its performance from *any* headphones. Even with my JH-13 it has a virtually *dead silent* background and sounds absolutely fantastic.
   
  I just don't see how this pairing couldn't be awesome, even if it adds a little flavor.


----------



## thinker

Quote: 





markj said:


> I like LCD-2 but for fast rock and pop Edition8 wins by margin in PRAT,  clarity, detail retrieval, bass slam and sparkle. For classical, T1 powered by Phonitor is just magic ( with sacds). If I would have to keep just one hp, it would be LCD-2 (with its shortcomings) it is just pleasure with any music or movies.


 
  The LCD-2 is way above ED-8  in everything thats for sure but when source is not ideal for LCD all is possible


----------



## thinker

Quote: 





thread said:


> I have high expectations for my RPX-33 when the LCD-2 arrives. My RudiStor does have a sound that is slightly warm on the tuby sound, but I've *never* been disappointed with its performance from *any* headphones. Even with my JH-13 it has a virtually *dead silent* background and sounds absolutely fantastic.
> 
> I just don't see how this pairing couldn't be awesome, even if it adds a little flavor.


 

 I have heard recently the RPX-33 it is possibly a good match for the LCD .I dont think that RPX-33 has that kind of flavor wich ruins the sound but if something appears wrong you should look at your other sources.As far as i understood  the sound of the rudistor is little bit on the warm side but not in that way how tubes do it so when you have clean source everything should be ok.


----------



## thread

Yes, thinker, this is pretty much how I feel/expect.
   
  I will report back!


----------



## Markj

Quote: 





quigs said:


> How are the LCD-2 with the Phonitor?


 


 Don't have other amps to compare, Phonitor adds more dynamics and detail compare to my Av receiver and blu-ray and with LCD-2 Phonitor (build for 600 OHM HP) has totaly silent backround unlike Edition8 and K-701.

  /img/forum/go_quote.gif


>


----------



## Markj

Quote: 





thinker said:


> The LCD-2 is way above ED-8  in everything thats for sure but when source is not ideal for LCD all is possible


 

 "Way above" is a strong statement. Edition8 has a place among the top closed headphones. Showcase of genius engineering and design in small package. I have lot of rock and pop SACD and yes, they sound better.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





markj said:


> "Way above" is a strong statement. Edition8 has a place among the top closed headphones. Showcase of genius engineering and design in small package. I have lot of rock and pop SACD and yes, they sound better.


 
  Just because they're in a different category, does not make them "bad" or lesser headphones, they are simply for a different purpose and use.


----------



## oqvist

Quote: 





markj said:


> Don't have other amps to compare, Phonitor adds more dynamics and detail compare to my Av receiver and blu-ray and with LCD-2 Phonitor (build for 600 OHM HP) has totaly silent backround unlike Edition8 and K-701.
> 
> /img/forum/go_quote.gif


 
  Seems like you have some problem with noise from your source or Phonitor is not as quiet as the Auditor? All my headphones are dead silent on my Auditor. I mostly have low impedance ones. Even if I go through my Behringer DEQ2496 it´s still totally silent.


----------



## Skylab

I disagree that the Edition 8 is not a "serious" headphone.  IMHO, it is indeed.  It is a closed headphone, which means certain drawbacks and limitations.  I think it's the best current-production, dynamic, closed headphone there is, however.


----------



## not_sure

Truth is SPL amps are one of the finest option for Ultrasone. For Audez'e who knows..


----------



## Solude

Quote: 





thread said:


> I have high expectations for my RPX-33 when the LCD-2 arrives. My RudiStor does have a sound that is slightly warm on the tuby sound, but I've *never* been disappointed with its performance from *any* headphones. Even with my JH-13 it has a virtually *dead silent* background and sounds absolutely fantastic.
> 
> I just don't see how this pairing couldn't be awesome, even if it adds a little flavor.


 

 Mine was the 5.1 tube/ss hybrid not the pure ss one.


----------



## average_joe

Quote: 





thread said:


> I have high expectations for my RPX-33 when the LCD-2 arrives. My RudiStor does have a sound that is slightly warm on the tuby sound, but I've *never* been disappointed with its performance from *any* headphones. Even with my JH-13 it has a virtually *dead silent* background and sounds absolutely fantastic.
> 
> I just don't see how this pairing couldn't be awesome, even if it adds a little flavor.


 

 I don't have the experience with desktop amps other than the RPX-33 and only have used it with 4 headphones, 2 IEMs and 2 full sized, so I hope you are right!  I am very happy with the T1/RPX-33 pairing and hope the LCD-2 is a good match.  But I too don't see how this pairing could be bad!


----------



## thinker

Quote: 





skylab said:


> I disagree that the Edition 8 is not a "serious" headphone.  IMHO, it is indeed.  It is a closed headphone, which means certain drawbacks and limitations.  I think it's the best current-production, dynamic, closed headphone there is, however.


 

 The ED-8 is a seious headphone and in overall performance i prefer it above HD-800  i have listened a lot with ED-8.
  But when it comes to LCD-2 .......let me see..........i find only the LCD-2 from my listening table....where did i put those other phones...eh..
  i dont remember.


----------



## SP Wild

I guess a lot of cans when compared directly to the LCD2s will come off being less serious.  On the other hand, are the ED8s not aimed at studio monitoring - no fun in work, thats for sure.


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





thinker said:


> The ED-8 is a seious headphone and in overall performance i prefer it above HD-800  i have listened a lot with ED-8.
> But when it comes to LCD-2 .......let me see..........i find only the LCD-2 from my listening table....where did i put those other phones...eh..
> i dont remember.


 

  
  Quote: 





sp wild said:


> I guess a lot of cans when compared directly to the LCD2s will come off being less serious.  On the other hand, are the ED8s not aimed at studio monitoring - no fun in work, thats for sure.


 

 INDEED.  I have even been taking the LCD-2 from room to room, something I never used to do - they are that good.  For sure.  But that doesn't mean the Edition 8 any less of a great headphone in its own right.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> The ED8 isn't even in the same league.  Not worthy to be compared.  ED8 is a fun can, but not a serious one IMHO.


 

 For the sake of the ED8 I wanted to try and clarify what I meant when I made the above statement.
  The LCD-2s are accurate, and transparent enough to be relied upon for evaluating and adjusting subtle differences in the reproduction chain.  I can use it to monitor a mixdown, I can use it to evaluate a tube roll, or an interconnect change, or whatever...it can be used as a serious, critical, discernment and evaluation tool.
   
  There are very, very few other headphones that are neutral and resolving enough to be able to be used in that manner.
  The ED8 is not one of those headphones.  It is, on the other hand, a very good sounding, fun to listen to, toe tapping headphone.  That doesn't make it "bad" in any way, just suited to a different purpose.  There are occasions where an LCD-2 would not be the best tool for the job.  That does not make them "bad" headphones.
   
  So, I did not mean to imply the ED8 was not a real and valid headphone, but rather, not as suitable for use as a serious piece of evaluation equipment as the LCD-2 is.  The ED8 is a seriously good headphone, but suitable for use in a different way than the LCD-2.


----------



## Skylab

Agreed, they are just very different. The Edition 8 accomplishes something impressive IMO - it delivers very close to the performance of the better open headphones, while being not just a closed headphone, but one with a lot of isolation. I think the LCD-2 is clearly better of course - and so is the T1' IMO - but the Ed 8 has to deal with the difficulties of being a sealed design, and in this regard I think it excels. 



 But anyway, this is off-topic - apologies for that. 



 Back OT, I bought a used WooAudio WA6 to try with the LCD-2 to see if it works well, given it's a transformer coupled design. Should be here next weekend.


----------



## Equus

That'll be interesting to hear, Skylab.
   
  To echo SemiAudiophile's impressions, I've been pretty pleased with the D10 and the LCD-2, but I unfortunately don't have a whole lot more beyond my 2Move and some budget Onkyo receivers to compare it to at this time.  I should soon have a Stacker II to compare with, however, and there's a Seattle meet coming up in a couple of weeks that should be a fantastic opportunity to try out other amps too.
   
  - edited because I apparently haven't had enough coffee to type yet


----------



## grokit

Looking forward to the WA6 impressions as well.
   
  OT, but regarding "post editing disclosure"; what is the accepted protocol?
   
  I am of the belief that if nobody has quoted your post, you are free to make even "expansive" edits without disclosure unless the edit changes what you said substantially.


----------



## SemiAudiophile

Quote: 





equus said:


> That'll be interesting to hear, Skylab.
> 
> To echo SemiAudiophile's impressions, I've been pretty pleased with the D10 and the LCD-2, but I unfortunately don't have a whole lot more beyond my 2Move and some budget Onkyo receivers to compare it to at this time.  I should soon have a Stacker II to compare with, however, and there's a Seattle meet coming up in a couple of weeks that should be a fantastic opportunity to try out other amps too.
> 
> - edited because I apparently haven't had enough coffee to type yet


 

 I look forward to the impressions of the WA6 and Stacker II. I'm contemplating on the Woo again, but kinda want something different this time around. 
   
  I also find that the MAD Ear+ HD amp isn't bad with the LCD-2 either. In fact it's a pretty seductive combo. Sweet sweet highs, detail, good soundstage. Oh so very seductive. The only thing that lacks is the 3D layering (I also notice this with the Asgard), tone seems a bit off, and certain vocal tracks seems a bit strained.


----------



## gilency

I will be sitting on the fence for a while, and would love to hear more comparisons with the O2's before making up my mind..
  It would be nice if some of the more knowledgeable posters in this thread would have a list for amplifiers of the LCD-2. May be the OP in the first post.
  Something like a list for:
  The _absolute best amplifiers_, _excellent amplifiers_, _OK amplifiers_,_ subpar performance amplifiers_, with a brief explanation for each of them, trying to put together different members impressions as to what makes them sound best.


----------



## Permagrin

Quote:


			
				Solude said:
			
		

> Concerto is $670 shipped anywhere.  Buying it for more is just silly. GCHA is $995, GS-1 is $900, Burson is $700 all plus shipping.  *So in the case of the Burson is ~$780 to your door and it got thrashed by the Concerto in the 6 Moon review.*


   
  I got my HA-160 for ~$668 shipped internationally (throught their E-bay store), but the pricepoint is miniscule regardless. (I think you commented later saying you meant ~$700 not 780)
   
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/meier3/meier_3.html <--- Is this the review you are referring to? I may be a newb to all this Hi-Fi stuff but will you point out where the Concerto thrashed the HA-160?


----------



## dallan

***


----------



## Solude

Think I corrected myself in a later post but on the Burson thing... "The Australian's insistence that op amps suck falls apart of course when confronted by something like Jan Meier's Concerto"  Srajan liked both but kept taking pokes at the Burson throughout the review.  Little pokes in a review over and over add up to a thrashing in my mind.  Its an audio review, its very rare that they come out and say "ugh" 
   
  The other side of this is I want, seek, only settle for amps that are wire with gain.  I've had many that weren't and the Burson review and counter in the Concerto review make it pretty clear that the Burson discrete opamp is coloured.  Up to the listener to decide if its a positive or negative in their rig.  The LCD-2 is "neutral" but clearly drops after 1KHz so an amp that also drops is probably not a good match.


----------



## Cya|\|

Anyone tried these cans with an audio gd sparrow or fun? ^^


----------



## santacore

I'm finally up and running with my Violectric V200 and LCD-2's. I've only clocked a few hours, but both pieces are definitely impressing me, and work well together. I can't wait to see what the next few days bring.


----------



## oqvist

You are such a teaser. Look forward to more impressions. You don´t by any chance have access to an auditor/phonitor?


----------



## santacore

Quote: 





oqvist said:


> You are such a teaser. Look forward to more impressions. You don´t by any chance have access to an auditor/phonitor?


 

 I'm not trying to be a tease, just haven't had much time with the combo. I wish I had more!!
   
  Sorry, don't have an Auditor/Phonitor available. I generally don't like solid state amps much, but this one is sounding great. The combo right now is a little dark, and I don't know if that is the phones or the amp. Both are new to me, so it's hard for me to make a call. More listening tonight, after a long day of recording...........


----------



## yossi126

I'm building a 3-channel b22 to go along with the LCD-2. What gain do you guys think would be optimal?


----------



## crowley

would the lcd2 work well with a starter amp like the ef2? am gonna upgrade the dac real soon and the amp later but was wondering if the ef2 would do the lcd2 some justice


----------



## gogogasgas

How's the Violectric going Santicore? Up 'n running?
   
  Anyone out there experimenting with the Luxman P-1u?


----------



## charliex

Would anyone know if a SAC/AKG K 1000 amp would be sufficient to drive the LCD-2s


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





charliex said:


> Would anyone know if a SAC/AKG K 1000 amp would be sufficient to drive the LCD-2s


 

 Easily.


----------



## Skylab

I posted this in the other LCD-2 thread, but I am finding the WooAudio WA6 (mine has the PDPS) is very adept at driving the LCD-2, and would be my "relatively inexpensive tube amp" recommendation for use with the Audeze.


----------



## crowley

Quote:


> I posted this in the other LCD-2 thread, but I am finding the WooAudio WA6 (mine has the PDPS) is very adept at driving the LCD-2, and would be my "relatively inexpensive tube amp" recommendation for use with the Audeze.


 
  My wallet is not gonna like this


----------



## Equus

I'm really liking the Stacker 2 with the LCD-2.  This Saturday is a Seattle local meet, so I'll have a good chance to check out the LCD-2 on a bunch of other rigs too.  If anyone wants to check out the Seattle meet thread and let me know if you want impressions from any of the rigs there, let me know.  I can probably hit up some of the others for their impressions too, so there's more experience and a well-rounded background.  Guess I might want to bring a notepad.  LOL


----------



## yococo96

do you think the lcd2 will paired well with the rp010mk2? 
  or I'll be forced to buy a leben...


----------



## cravenz

not sure about asking this, but any clue on whether the Matrix M-Stage would be able to power the LCD-2s?


----------



## BrainFood

It would be really great if someone could do a direct comparison between the Meier Concerto, Woo Audio WA6 and Violectric HPA V200 (or new V181) driving the LCD-2.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





brainfood said:


> It would be really great if someone could do a direct comparison between the Meier Concerto, Woo Audio WA6 and Violectric HPA V200 (or new V181) driving the LCD-2.


 

 I think Sky has done two out of the three already if I'm not mistaken.


----------



## BrainFood

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> I think Sky has done two out of the three already if I'm not mistaken.


 

 It's how those two compare to the Violectric that interests me.


----------



## kwkarth

The HPA V181 looks like it uses 4 Buf634s, I assume in pairs, so at best, I would expect it to be comparable to the Meier Concerto.
   
  Here's a spec comparo.  The V200 should be a much more stout amp than the V181.

   
  2.7W into 50 ohms should do pretty nicely!  The V200 uses discrete outputs vs the V181 which uses Buf634s according to the Violectric data sheets.  I would take the V200 over the V181 any day.


----------



## BrainFood

The specs are interesting but it's how the V200 sounds, in comparison to the Meier and Woo, that I've yet to see any opinions of.


----------



## Skylab

Yeah, can't help there, as I've never heard the Violectric in any setting. But both the WA6 and Concerto do a good job with the LCD-2, although I think I slightly prefer them with the Woo.


----------



## BrainFood

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Yeah, can't help there, as I've never heard the Violectric in any setting. But both the WA6 and Concerto do a good job with the LCD-2, although I think I slightly prefer them with the Woo.


 

 Thanks.
   
  V200 impressions seem to be a bit thin on the ground. I'd also like to hear opinions about the optional DAC.


----------



## dallan

I have a V200 on order and it was received/in stock as of today and sounds like shipping out to me Monday.  Probably see it by the end of the week but I am still waiting for the LCD2's so who knows when i will have an impression.


----------



## santacore

I've had my LCD-2's and V200 for a few weeks now, and have been very happy with the combo. I can't find any major faults, which I feel is the best compliment. So far I find the V200 to be quick, dynamic, and musical. I'm enjoying it more then my DNA Sonett with these headphones.
   
  Haven't tried the build in DAC. One of the days I'll give it a run.


----------



## BrainFood

Quote: 





santacore said:


> Haven't tried the build in DAC. One of the days I'll give it a run.


 
  Quote: 





dallan said:


> I have a V200 on order...


 

 The DAC is what's attracting me, as it would mean killing two birds with one stone. 
   
  Keep us posted


----------



## Hybrys

Hmm... I've been looking into getting the LCD-2s and a matching DAC/Amp, and you guys are very helpful so far!  But, one of the devices that caught my eye was the Lavry DA11.  Has anyone tried the LCD-2 on it?  The 24/96 USB DAC plus balanced and unbalanced output has me all jumpy for it.  Or any other $1000 amp, $600 DAC combos that would treat it right?


----------



## BrainFood

Yeah would be interesting to hear how the DAC of the Violectric compares to level of DA11 or Mytek Stereo 96.  I guess it wouldn't be quite that good?.
   
  Someone, I think Kwkarth, said that the DA11 had enough current to drive the LCD-2's but would it sound as good as a proper headphone amp?*  *


----------



## jcx

> The V200 uses discrete outputs vs the V181 which uses Buf634s according to the Violectric data sheets.  I would take the V200 over the V181 any day.


 
   
 
 
The tech data doesn’t convince me that the "discrete tansistor" V200 is a obvious “any day” win over the V181 with "Balalnced output" (I prefer the term "Bridged")  for the LCD-2
 
Looking at thd+n the buf634 looks to be holding up better with lower Z load (comparing 100 and 32 Ohm thd+n  as bracketing the LCD-2’s 50 Ohms) - it appears likely the V181 would be better on this spec at 50 Ohms than the V200 driving the LCD-2 to 120 dB SPL
 
2 dB more power from the V200 into 50 Ohms isn't so critical when the V181 can already drive the LCD to 124 dB SPL but this is an advantage in the V200's favor for those who believe in extreme dynamic headroom - but the automatic objections and hostility I face when trying to point out headroom requirements on head-fi suggest most members won't think this is a meaningful difference
 
amplifier damping factor beyond a 100 isn’t a audible issue with any headphone, even less so with the LCD when you add the knowledge from Tyle’s impedance measurements that the LCD-2 shows a flat, presumably resistive load – as expected from orthodynamic driver physics
the "impressive" 800 damping factor # for the V200 isn't a meaningful differentiator vs the V181's "only" 250 with the LCD
 
The touted V200’s discrete output's “60 V supply” "advantage" isn’t showing up in the numbers in the table for 600 Ohm load either
 
so is it just the word "discrete"? – the Violectric site product descriptions say both use op amps for the pre-gain and the numbers suggest the both the V181 and V200 outputs are also inside op amp feedback loops – although that certainly isn’t clear from the product descriptions
 
given the hype and predujices of the audiophile community I suppose the words “discrete transistor” is worth the extra ~US$100 in resale - but the the V181 has "Balanced" outputs - which gets a lot of street credit here too
 
but I really doubt the difference could be heard ABX


----------



## kwkarth

Why would I tale the V200 over the V181?  Free DAC.  Bridged output, especially when their single buf634s for each rail, seem inadequate to me.  If they were stacked and bridged, then I would be more interested, given the characteristics of the '634.
   
  Oh, and "balanced" outputs?  WOOFLE DUST.


----------



## BK_856er

Quote: 





dallan said:


> I have a V200 on order and it was received/in stock as of today and sounds like shipping out to me Monday.  Probably see it by the end of the week but I am still waiting for the LCD2's so who knows when i will have an impression.


 

 I'm in the same boat...V200 on the way and on the list for the LCD-2...
   
  BK


----------



## dallan

I talked to Robert over there who is the US distributer and he said there is a large dynamic difference between the V100 and the V200.  I looked at the numbers when checking to buy one and it looked like the 100 might work.  Many have sold the 100 and jumped up because of the gap between the two.  After that remember that the V181 is based on the V100 design.  That said it is obvious to me that for now the V200 is the way to go, at least until the balanced V200 is released in a year or so.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> Why would I tale the V200 over the V181?  Free DAC.  Bridged output, especially when their single buf634s for each rail, seem inadequate to me.  If they were stacked and bridged, then I would be more interested, given the characteristics of the '634.
> 
> Oh, and "balanced" outputs?  WOOFLE DUST.


 

 "USB Eingang optional" means "the USB input is an option" on V181 (and from July 2010 on V100 and V200) at extra cost.
   
  I just checked @ the Aphrodite site, and the USB input is optional on both the V181 & V200, but not yet available for the V100.


----------



## Hybrys

Here's another one.
   
  Has anyone tried a balanced or 3-channel beta22 with the LCD-2 yet?


----------



## cravenz

question: posted this in the LCD-2 thread, but the question seems to have been overlooked. I was wondering if these specs of the M-stage would be able to power the LCD-2? I'm not sure how to read the technical specs. Also, I wouldn't want them to just power, I'd be looking more at whether it has enough power to sufficiently drive the LCD-2s to it's potential. Any help is appreciated.
   

 Frequency Response: 10 Hz (-0.3dB) ~ 35kHz (-1dB)
 Signal to Noise Ratio: >95dB (0dB)
 Distortion: <0.001% (6 mW/300 Ohms)
 Input Impedance: 47 kOhms
 Output Impedance: Line-out 60 Ohms, Phone-out 5 Ohms
 Output Power: 200 mW/300 Ohms, 400 mW/60 Ohms


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





cravenz said:


> question: posted this in the LCD-2 thread, but the question seems to have been overlooked. I was wondering if these specs of the M-stage would be able to power the LCD-2? I'm not sure how to read the technical specs. Also, I wouldn't want them to just power, I'd be looking more at whether it has enough power to sufficiently drive the LCD-2s to it's potential. Any help is appreciated.
> 
> 
> Frequency Response: 10 Hz (-0.3dB) ~ 35kHz (-1dB)
> ...


 
  Technically, probably yes, but you will not have any real idea how it will sound until you buy is and put it in your system.


----------



## cravenz

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> Technically, probably yes, but you will not have any real idea how it will sound until you buy is and put it in your system.


 

 bummer, but thank kwkarth. I'm considering having a look at these orthos, but I don't really want to spend that much without knowing if it will work and then regretting it. Just trying to make as informed a choice as I possibly can.


----------



## gogogasgas

santacore said:


> I've had my LCD-2's and V200 for a few weeks now, and have been very happy with the combo. I can't find any major faults, which I feel is the best compliment. So far I find the V200 to be quick, dynamic, and musical. I'm enjoying it more then my DNA Sonett with these headphones.


 

 Thanks, Satacore. Do you feel that the V200 is effortless (that it has enough headroom, so to speak, and grunt) when powering the LCD-2s? Does it sound harsh or hard, or conversely, soft in it's presentation with the LCD-2s? Is detail retrieval good without being over-analytical? Is the V200's fit and finish OK?


----------



## BrainFood

Anyone know what the Alo Rx does into 50 ohm?  Just how good an amp is it with the LCD-2?


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





brainfood said:


> Anyone know what the Alo Rx does into 50 ohm?  Just how good an amp is it with the LCD-2?


 
  The Rx works remarkably well driving the LCD-2s, but it obviously doesn't have the power of something like the Asgard.  It's on a par with the original RSA SR-71.


----------



## sachu

^^ Agreed..though I wouldn't suggest the Asgard for the LCD-2. Doesn't complement well IMHO. Even for those on a budget,i'd say look elsewhere for an amp to pair with the LCD-2.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





sachu said:


> ^^ Agreed..though I wouldn't suggest the Asgard for the LCD-2. Doesn't complement well IMHO. Even for those on a budget,i'd say look elsewhere for an amp to pair with the LCD-2.


 
  I feel the Asgard works very, very well for the LCD-2.  I wonder why our opinions differ on this so much?


----------



## sachu

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> I feel the Asgard works very, very well for the LCD-2.  I wonder why our opinions differ on this so much?


 

 Hey Kevin. From what I heard, the Asgard works great for the HE-5. I would heartily recommend it for that headphone (and the HE-5LE as apparently they share similar characteristics ). I think I have made my observations known on the Asgard with the LCD-2 in the latter's thread.
   
  edit: Kevin, I would love to sit down once again with your  asgard and LCD-2 and be proven wrong. I think the Asgard is a game changer and an extremely well thought out amp for an incredible price. Just din't hear it working well with the LCD-2.


----------



## SemiAudiophile

I also didn't feel like the Asgard had good synergy with the LCD2 (even after 40+ hrs burn-in), thus why I returned it. I'm sure it does great with Grado's and Senn HD6xx's though. I still prefer my D10 with the LCD2.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





sachu said:


> Hey Kevin. From what I heard, the Asgard works great for the HE-5. I would heartily recommend it for that headphone (and the HE-5LE as apparently they share similar characteristics ). I think I have made my observations known on the Asgard with the LCD-2 in the latter's thread.
> 
> edit: Kevin, I would love to sit down once again with your  asgard and LCD-2 and be proven wrong. I think the Asgard is a game changer and an extremely well thought out amp for an incredible price. Just din't hear it working well with the LCD-2.


 
  Surprisingly, both the LCD-1 and the LCD-2 sound pretty nice to my ears on the Asgard.  The HE-5LE, on the other hand does not sound too good on the Asgard, but on the other hand, sounds quite nice on the Meier Aria.  I don't have an explanation for this yet...


----------



## santacore

Quote: 





gogogasgas said:


> Thanks, Satacore. Do you feel that the V200 is effortless (that it has enough headroom, so to speak, and grunt) when powering the LCD-2s? Does it sound harsh or hard, or conversely, soft in it's presentation with the LCD-2s? Is detail retrieval good without being over-analytical? Is the V200's fit and finish OK?


 

 Yes, I think it drives them pretty effortlessly. The amp has good dynamics and punch. I wouldn't say it sounds particularly hard or soft. It's fairly neutral with a very musical sound. Yes, I definitely feel detail retrieval is good without being analytical. Fit and finish are nice in a industrial sort of way. The soldering seemed a tad bit sloppy, but otherwise I think it's a very nice little package.
   
  Hope that helps.


----------



## dallan

You know what i noticed about Santicore's V200, it disappeared.  That's perfect!


----------



## Equus

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> Surprisingly, both the LCD-1 and the LCD-2 sound pretty nice to my ears on the Asgard.  The HE-5LE, on the other hand does not sound too good on the Asgard, but on the other hand, sounds quite nice on the Meier Aria.  I don't have an explanation for this yet...


 
   
  I wasn't able to listen very critically to the Asgard, since I didn't get to it until the ending of the meet and I only heard about 3 minutes of it.  It also wasn't with source material that I was completely familiar with.  It and the Protector kinda surprised me a little though, in a good way, and I wouldn't mind getting a chance to listen to them again.
   
  On another note, the Stacker lives again!  Long live the Stacker!


----------



## sachu

Quote: 





equus said:


> On another note, the Stacker lives again!  Long live the Stacker!


 

 Indeed!  Just got your message..phew!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Just remember Master Cavalli's advise from here on..
   
  Quote: 





> *Don't mess with anything that is working.*


----------



## Equus

Quote: 





> *Don't mess with anything that is working.*


 

 Golden words to live by.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Two other rigs I should mention that sounded good during limited listening at the meet were Kingstyles' rig with an Isabellina, and I liked the tone from the Weiss DAC 202 straight out of the DAC's headphone jack.


----------



## Audiogalore

Solid state or tubes?


----------



## Equus

Quote: 





audiogalore said:


> Solid state or tubes!


 

 Is that a statement or a question?


----------



## kwkarth

Besides having been addressed many times in this thread, your question, as you posed it, is simply too broad to answer.  Either technology will work fine as long as all the other conditions are met properly.


----------



## gogogasgas

Quote:


santacore said:


> Yes, I think it drives them pretty effortlessly. The amp has good dynamics and punch. I wouldn't say it sounds particularly hard or soft. It's fairly neutral with a very musical sound. Yes, I definitely feel detail retrieval is good without being analytical. Fit and finish are nice in a industrial sort of way. The soldering seemed a tad bit sloppy, but otherwise I think it's a very nice little package.


 
   
Thanks Santacore! Well wrought response. The V200 does seem to offer very good value, all things considered.
   
More information on the *VIOLECTRIC V200.*​


----------



## dallan

I have had the V200 for a couple of days now and i am very impressed.  It just sounds right.  Nice and warm with good midrange.  Can't wait for the LCD-2 to come and plug them in, right now I am using it mainly with the HD800s and occasionally the DX1000s.  Drives both of those remarkably well, i was worried about the 800s but they sound very nice with the V200.


----------



## oqvist

How about the DX 1000 on the V200?. That is a finicky headphone surely. Also curious what other amps you have as reference points? The V200 is high on my list to try if I am not totally sold on either the GHP or Traformatic. Not that I expect otherwise


----------



## dallan

My other amps as reference points are: Eddie Current Zana Duex, Musical Fidelity XCAN V3 with XPSU, and Triad Audio Lisa lll.
   
  V200 was much fuller sounding and drove both phones much better than the Lisa lll.  V200 had a much better midrange than the xcan and had less boomy/flubby bass as well.  So the bass really cleaned up and the midrange sang.
   
  As far as the Zana, the Zana was quieter, which it is known for and had a different presentation.  The 800s really sing with the Zana Duex, that's for sure, sometimes i just shake my head in amazement.  That said the V200 sounded wonderful with the 800s in its own way.  
  With the DX1000s I found that the V200 sounded to drive them better than the Zana Duex, which is only rated at 200 mw at 32 ohm and the DX1000 is 50 ohm.  But that said the Zana Duex still exhibited a very quiet background and an intense sound stage.  The difference was that the sound of the Zana was slightly thin in comparison to the V200 at that 50 ohm level.  Remember the V200 has something like 2700mw there vs, the Zana Duex ......maybe something just over 200mw.
   
  I really did just some preliminary a/b with it when it arrived and then decided to kind of sit with the V200 and see how i liked it listening to it primarily over several days.  Also I don't like turning the tubes on and off constantly over the day but don't want to leave them on so the Zana I want to listen when i have a solid timeframe anyway.
   
  When the LCD2 comes i will go to all of the amps and compare.


----------



## gknix

Since the Protector can somewhat drive the HE-5LEs as a portable, has anyone tried it with the LCD-2?


----------



## oqvist

Oh is there hiss issues with the V200? Surprised me a bit since I never had that problem with the solid state amps I have used. How bad is it?


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





gknix said:


> Since the Protector can somewhat drive the HE-5LEs as a portable, has anyone tried it with the LCD-2?


 

 Anything that will properly drive the HE-5LEs, will drive the LCD-2 even better as they're at least 6dB more sensitive than the 5LE's.  My Meier Aria does a passable job driving the LCD-2s and sounds awful, anemic, and gutless with the 5LEs.


----------



## Equus

Quote: 





gknix said:


> Since the Protector can somewhat drive the HE-5LEs as a portable, has anyone tried it with the LCD-2?


 

 A few of us heard the LCD-2 on the Protector at the recent Seattle meet.  I didn't get enough time to say for certain, but I was pleasantly surprised by the sound out of something with such a small form factor.  My initial thoughts were that there weren't any glaring problems or congestion, but seeing as the environment wasn't really ideal, that should be taken with a grain of salt.


----------



## Solude

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> My Meier Aria does a passable job driving the LCD-2s and sounds awful, anemic, and gutless with the 5LEs.


 

 Moderately off topic but since I don't have my LCD-2 yet I snagged some HE-5LE and the Meier Concerto drives the HE well even without going to high gain.  Listening right now on low gain, 11 o'clock.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





solude said:


> Moderately off topic but since I don't have my LCD-2 yet I snagged some HE-5LE and the Meier Concerto drives the HE well even without going to high gain.  Listening right now on low gain, 11 o'clock.


 

 Makes sense.  The Concerto has twice the power of the Aria.


----------



## santacore

Quote: 





oqvist said:


> Oh is there hiss issues with the V200? Surprised me a bit since I never had that problem with the solid state amps I have used. How bad is it?


 

 I have noticed no hiss issues with the V200 and either the LCD-2 or HD-800's.


----------



## dallan

oqvist said:


> Oh is there hiss issues with the V200? Surprised me a bit since I never had that problem with the solid state amps I have used. How bad is it?





  Quote: 





santacore said:


> I have noticed no hiss issues with the V200 and either the LCD-2 or HD-800's.


 
  I have no hiss issues with the V200 and the HD800s or the DX1000 and I have heard Santicore's and didn't hear hiss with the LCD2's either.  Who mentioned hiss?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Heck, even my little uDAC off the Macbook Pro can drive the LCD-2 to sound very nice and punchy.  I've also been enjoying them with the EF5 amp.


----------



## Paganini Alfredo

Quote: 





headphoneaddict said:


> Heck, even my little uDAC off the Macbook Pro can drive the LCD-2 to sound very nice and punchy.  I've also been enjoying them with the EF5 amp.


 
  Could you pretty please check out the LCD's with your HeadRoom gear (if your gear list is correct)?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote: 





paganini alfredo said:


> Could you pretty please check out the LCD's with your HeadRoom gear (if your gear list is correct)?


 

 I'll try it with my Micro Stack tomorrow sometime. (or should I say, later today?)


----------



## oqvist

Quote: 





dallan said:


> I have no hiss issues with the V200 and the HD800s or the DX1000 and I have heard Santicore's and didn't hear hiss with the LCD2's either.  Who mentioned hiss?


 

 Dallan mentioned that his Zana Deux was quiter. Which to me translated there was some background noise on the V200 in comparison.


----------



## Audio Jester

Has anyone given the LCD's a go with an Audio GD DAC19 - C2 rig over ACSS?  Would these two be a good pairing?


----------



## BaboonGuy

Has anyone tried a Dynalo with the LCD2? I've been reading and it seems like the Dynalo might not have enough power to fully drive the LCD2 with only 60mA...


----------



## dallan

Quote: 





oqvist said:


> Dallan mentioned that his Zana Deux was quiter. Which to me translated there was some background noise on the V200 in comparison.


 

 No, I wouldn't say background noise.  It is just the Zana Deux comes out of such complete blackness that it gives a different impression.  The V200 seems warmer, no hiss or discernible noise just in comparison that is how i would describe the difference.  There seems to be more....separation with the Zana Deux or space between elements.  The V200 just gives a different presentation that ties together well too.  The point is, for the LCD2 the specs show that the V200 should work much better  (also it doesn't cost $2200. and take 4-6 months to get either).  None the less I will be trying the Zana Deux as well as all my amps on the LCD2 so I'll let you know, maybe it will work.  I don't know if 200 or 250 mw will be sufficient to fully drive them though, especially compared to 2700 mw of the V200.
   
  The other thing I am not sure of is, I don't know if the V200 is a class A  type of amp and I find those to be much different and much quieter as far as just distortion levels and presentation over all.  The Zana is Class A, so that may be some of the difference.  Haven't been able to find out if the V200 is an A or A/B.  If anyone knows I would be interested.


----------



## kwkarth

Clearly, 250mW cannot "fully" drive the LCD-2, but it may give a listener *adequate* volume and dynamic range, depending upon the genre and general volume level.  The depths of bass power capability and dynamic range will never be exploited by 250mW.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





dallan said:


> No, I wouldn't say background noise.  It is just the Zana Deux comes out of such complete blackness that it gives a different impression.  The V200 seems warmer, no hiss or discernible noise just in comparison that is how i would describe the difference.  There seems to be more....separation with the Zana Deux or space between elements.  The V200 just gives a different presentation that ties together well too.  The point is, for the LCD2 the specs show that the V200 should work much better  (also it doesn't cost $2200. and take 4-6 months to get either).  None the less I will be trying the Zana Deux as well as all my amps on the LCD2 so I'll let you know, maybe it will work.  I don't know if 200 or 250 mw will be sufficient to fully drive them though, especially compared to 2700 mw of the V200.
> 
> The other thing I am not sure of is, *I don't know if the V200 is a class A  type of amp *and I find those to be much different and much quieter as far as just distortion levels and presentation over all.  The Zana is Class A, so that may be some of the difference.  Haven't been able to find out if the V200 is an A or A/B.  If anyone knows I would be interested.


 
  I do not believe the V200 is a Class A amp.


----------



## dallan

Thanks, my listening seems to support that and so i assumed as such.  Kind of wish i had checked that before i got it but on the upside the V200 is outperforming my expectations.


----------



## oqvist

So there is no hiss when you don´t play no music out of the V200? It´s while playing music you feel the Zana Deux has shorter decays leading to more blackness between notes?
   
  I have my replacement Trafomatic Head one on it´s way. Has a bit better specs regarding current output as in 300 mW than the Zana Deux so happy it seem to perform really well.
  How would you go about testing the current output on amps you own btw? Would like to know the specs on my Goldpoint headphone Pro in this department.


----------



## dallan

I just read the listed specs, i don't have any measuring equipment.


----------



## BK_856er

Quote: 





oqvist said:


> So there is no hiss when you don´t play no music out of the V200? .....


 


 I've been enjoying my new V200 since I got a couple days ago.  I can confirm that there is no hiss whatsoever from the relatively sensitive ATH-AD2000 (no music playing, volume cranked to max, balanced input from DA11).  Still on the list for the LCD-2, so nothing to report there.
   
  BK


----------



## sachu

I would heartily recommend the Cavalli Audio EHHA-1 for the LCD-2 for those who are involved in DIY. Suggest trying Toshiba 2238/968 BJT output devices on this amp.


----------



## emelius

^^what's the latest on the Liquid Gold front?...


----------



## Duckman

Listened to the LCD-2 on the SAC K1000 yesterday. Drove them very well indeed.


----------



## electropop

Quote: 





bk_856er said:


> I've been enjoying my new V200 since I got a couple days ago.  I can confirm that there is no hiss whatsoever from the relatively sensitive ATH-AD2000 (no music playing, volume cranked to max, balanced input from DA11).  Still on the list for the LCD-2, so nothing to report there.
> 
> BK


 
   
  That's pretty impressive.


----------



## tunarat

More LCD-2 amp competition. In this corner...
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/501934/apex-peak-volcano-review/15


----------



## Equus

Just got some new cables from Blue Jeans (ordered one day, got it a day or so later...yay for local!).  Replaced the optical TOSLINK between the Squeezebox Touch and the Assemblage DAC with a digital RCA to BNC and the old RCA cable between the DAC and the Stacker.  The biggest difference seems to have come from the RCA/BNC cable, which seems to add a little brightness to the highs, but without being overly bright or harsh.  Comparatively, when I switched to the optical again, the stage seemed to collapse just a little and the sound was a little less distinct.  With the change in cables, the Stacker continues to play very well to the LCD-2's strengths, with the mids sounding effortless and wide while the treble seems effortless and with good separation without harsh brightness.


----------



## BrainFood

Quote: 





equus said:


> The biggest difference seems to have come from the RCA/BNC cable


 
   
  Compared to Optical, I'm not surprised.


----------



## Solude

In my opinion, for the most part the only time I'd use toslink over coax is for a PC connection to have a break from the electrical noise.


----------



## Equus

Yeah, I was just making due with the toslink because the DAC didn't have a digital RCA input and I didn't have any of the other connectors available.  Glad that it seems to sound like I'm not just hearing things though.  ^_^


----------



## Radio_head

Can anyone compare these with a concerto and a bcl?  They look like my short list for these headphones.


----------



## gogogasgas

Quote:


equus said:


> Yeah, I was just making due with the toslink because the DAC didn't have a digital RCA input and I didn't have any of the other connectors available.  Glad that it seems to sound like I'm not just hearing things though.  ^_^


 
   
  I could never be called Mr Digital. However, I seem to remember that a high quality GLASS FIBRE optical connection is preferable to coaxial. So, toslink might be good as long as you don't use a cheapo (read: non-glass) cable.


----------



## Hybrys

Quote: 





gogogasgas said:


> Quote:
> 
> I could never be called Mr Digital. However, I seem to remember that a high quality GLASS FIBRE optical connection is preferable to coaxial. So, toslink might be good as long as you don't use a cheapo (read: non-glass) cable.


 

 If I recall, regardless of cable, it's usually Toslink --> Coaxial --> BNC/AES  --> I2S. 
   
  That said, and this is a big point, your mileage may vary.  Every implementation is different, and a lot of things matter along the line.  If you can, test all the inputs, and pick the one you feel is best.


----------



## Solude

Nods, never ever use plastic.  Toslink has the advantage of electrical separation but the disadvantage of going through two _transducers_.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





solude said:


> Nods, never ever use plastic.  Toslink has the advantage of electrical separation but the disadvantage of going through two transformers.


 

 The signal does not go through "transformers" it goes through the Toslink converter, an electrical to optical modulator but all in the digital domain, and back again to electrical digital on the other end, again, all in the digital domain.


----------



## oqvist

Does it really make a difference? I have never noticed anything between toslink and coaxial? Feels like we are splitting even more hairs here then regarding after market cables


----------



## Solude

My bad, the correct word is transducer.  English isn't is first language by the way.  In this case electricity is converted into light and back.  Much in the same way a speaker is a transducer of electricity into sound.


----------



## Equus

heh...didn't mean to spark a cable debate...just wanted to wave my happy flag about Blue Jeans Cable's products and how I'm enjoying the Stacker II to LCD-2 combo even more now.  Now if only the weather weren't warm enough to make my head sweat while wearing the LCD-2, life would be wonderful.


----------



## dallan

You could pass some of that warmth over here please.....it's 11:00am and only 61 degrees, burrrr.  Where is our summer this year.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  On the bright side, if the LCD2s arrive i won't sweat in them i guess.


----------



## Equus

LOL, well it is something like 60 over here too until the afternoon...it just doesn't get much cooler than that, and my apartment probably stays in the upper 70's to 80's most of the time unless I turn on the a/c, which is unfortunately a little old and noisy.  Makes really appreciating my rig a little more challenging.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





oqvist said:


> Does it really make a difference? I have never noticed anything between toslink and coaxial? Feels like we are splitting even more hairs here then regarding after market cables


 

 There are many who claim to be able to hear deleterious effects from a Toslink in the path.  I, myself, have never made a study of that, but assuming jitter is not an issue, I can't imagine it would be audible.  Likewise, electrical "noise" in the digital domain would be ignored by the DAC, so should never become audible.  Further, if the DAC is properly grounded as it should be, any electrical noise coupled to it from an external source should be grounded out.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





solude said:


> My bad, the correct word is transducer.  English isn't is first language by the way.  In this case electricity is converted into light and back.  Much in the same way a speaker is a transducer of electricity into sound.


 

 The most significant difference here is that the conversion in both directions takes place entirely in the digital domain, and therefore is theoretically lossless and undetectable, unless of course jitter is introduced.


----------



## dallan

I have three dacs that all have both optical and coaxial inputs and every one with every source and several different optical and digital cables all sound better with coaxial.  I don't know the reason, but it is quite obvious.  Maybe my dacs all just are better with the coax than optical.  I now only use optical when i have too, like listing to 24/81 which my usb converter doesn't like on my primary system.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





dallan said:


> I have three dacs that all have both optical and coaxial inputs and every one with every source and several different optical and digital cables all sound better with coaxial.  I don't know the reason, but it is quite obvious.  Maybe my dacs all just are better with the coax than optical.  I now only use optical when i have too, like listing to 24/81 which my usb converter doesn't like on my primary system.


 
  That's good input, thanks!  You are not the only person to report better sound from a coaxial (electrical digital) over a Toslink (optical digital) connection.  It would be fun to scope this out and see what was going on.  Oh well, another topic, another thread.


----------



## Solude

Hence the advantage on a PC for toslink where electrical noise and other nasties are part of the deal.  Stereophile scoped all of this once upon a time on an RME card.  Long story short toslink dropped 400ps of electrical jitter off the measurement compared to coax but actual data jitter was more or less the same.
   
  I'm also in the hard pressed to believe that things can sound different while still 1s and 0s.  But measurements are measurements so glass toslink for my PC.  Difference or not at least on paper I'm covered


----------



## Hybrys

So, I'm planning on dropping $2000 on an amp for these things, and I want to go balanced.  The WA22 should be quite proficient, but does anyone have any comments on how it sounds?


----------



## Equus

Sorry, haven't personally had a chance to listen to a WA22 with these 'phones.


----------



## Solude

If you had to pick a tube amp for the LCD-2 under $700 what would be your goto amp?  Semi sorta on topic whats the difference between the WA6 and WA6SE other than two box and some choke filters?


----------



## Skylab

I would go with the WA6 in that price range. I have found it excellent with the LCD-2. I'm not an expert on the SE differences though.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





solude said:


> If you had to pick a tube amp for the LCD-2 under $700 what would be your goto amp?  Semi sorta on topic whats the difference between the WA6 and WA6SE other than two box and some choke filters?


 

 Literally, double the power!


----------



## Servo

I'm contemplating building either a balanced Beta22 or a balanced EHHA for use with the LCD-2s (when I get mine 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).  Has anyone had the opportunity to try a balanced EHHA out?  I've read somewhere that the Beta does indeed sound swell  . . .


----------



## grokit

I've heard the LCD-2 single-ended briefly on the WA22, and it was just okay, I thought it was better out of the EF5 TBH. But it had a bad capacitor which may have been part of the problem, and will be back from Woo soon as it arrived with other issues. The WA22 seller took good care of me though, and Jack at Woo went through it thoroughly. The WA22 sounded GREAT balanced with the other headphones I tried though.
   
  I haven't gotten the balanced cable yet for the LCD-2 but I really need to get on that as the WA22 should be back by the end of the week. I will either find my misplaced Warren Audio balanced Sennheiser cable that was messed up on the headphone end (refunded) and stick some mini XLRs on that, or put a male/female 4-pin XLR in line with the stock cable. I have a feeling that the LCD-2 will sound great balanced, and I will report back when I get it done.
   
  On the toslink vs. coaxial: these are my only choices on my Bel Canto DAC2>EF5. When I was using the uDac for s/pdif conversion I heard a difference vs. toslink; I can't really say that one was better or worse than the other but there was an audible difference. Then I got a Bravo re-clocking converter hooked up, and couldn't tell the difference between that and toslink. I have since moved the Bravo to my balanced rig's Mini-i, where it makes a big difference. The Mini-i was upsampling redbook CD's to 48 kHz via USB; now it is bit-perfect @ 44.1 via BNC coaxial and sounds noticeably better.
   
  I am happier with both rigs now, and I have my uDac back for use with the iPad. I also have a better toslink cable on order 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  And I'm done spending money on this hobby for quite a while. Really 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## Solude

Unless something has changed Monster uses pretty smoky plastic for its toslink.  Its actually the cable they used to sing the praises of glass.  At the time the glass was an AudioGon private seller thing, $25 or there abouts and just destroying everything in its path.  Then WireWorld and Nordost jumped on board.  There was another one too, white, european, name escapes me.


----------



## grokit

Oh well it's got the spring-loaded gold-plated super-shielding so the 1s and 0s should slide right through, lol its the one above their THX series and even the much more expensive Viablue and Audioquest cables are made up of polymers but now I am second guessing myself. There are some glass ones on Amazon near the price range of the Monster. Glass sounds kinda fragile but maybe I will cancel and try it anyways...


----------



## Solude

Glass is not fragile in fibres.  Don't try to wrap it around a pen or anything but mine have survived foot stomps and kids yanking on them for years now.  Here is your defacto entry point...
   
http://cgi.ebay.ca/1m-SonicWave-Glass-Toslink-Cable-/180510110555?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a073db35b
   
  Personally I moved the the Wireworld because of its rotating connector guarantying that there is no tension at the connector.


----------



## Solude

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> Literally, double the power!


 

 You'd think something that obvious would make it onto the ad type but no both listed as 1W.  Also is the high/low thing 0/120 ohm output or gain differences?


----------



## Hybrys

Quote: 





grokit said:


> I've heard the LCD-2 single-ended briefly on the WA22, and it was just okay, I thought it was better out of the EF5 TBH. But it had a bad capacitor which may have been part of the problem, and will be back from Woo soon as it arrived with other issues. The WA22 seller took good care of me though, and Jack at Woo went through it thoroughly. The WA22 sounded GREAT balanced with the other headphones I tried though.
> 
> I haven't gotten the balanced cable yet for the LCD-2 but I really need to get on that as the WA22 should be back by the end of the week. I will either find my misplaced Warren Audio balanced Sennheiser cable that was messed up on the headphone end (refunded) and stick some mini XLRs on that, or put a male/female 4-pin XLR in line with the stock cable. I have a feeling that the LCD-2 will sound great balanced, and I will report back when I get it done.


 

 Very interesting.  I'd love to hear from your opinion again after you've gotten the LCD-2 recabled and the amp fixed, either in this thread or in a PM.  I'd love to just go for the top all in one swing, so I'm trying to find a balanced amp that'll do things just right... And there seem to be few tube amps that can do that for me under $2500.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





solude said:


> You'd think something that obvious would make it onto the ad type but no both listed as 1W.  Also is the high/low thing 0/120 ohm output or gain differences?


 
  Yeah, I think we need Jack Wu to weigh in for a definitive call on this issue.
   
  Here's a review of both:
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/375885/review-woo-audio-wa6-vs-wa6se-stock-units
   
  Also, from another thread:
   
  Quote:


> Originally Posted by *peanuthead* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> _ 32 Ohms: 6 (380 mW), 6SE (1100 mW)
> 100 Ohms: 6 (200 mW), 6SE (780 mW)
> 
> Source: Jack_


 
   
  Another:
   
   
  Quote:


> Just got an email response from Jack RE: the power output of the WA6SE.
> 
> "Correction to the output power of the WA6 SE after measurements. We did have some enhancements in the recent version.
> The output is 1200 mw at 32 ohms, 1100 mw at 100ohms, and 900 mw at 300 ohms."
> ...


----------



## BrainFood

So the WA 6 is borderline powerful enough? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
   


> Originally Posted by *peanuthead*
> 
> 
> _ 32 Ohms: 6 (380 mW), 6SE (1100 mW)
> ...


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





brainfood said:


> So the WA 6 is borderline powerful enough?


 

 Yup.


----------



## Paganini Alfredo

I know I should properly peruse this thread, but HeadRoom's Ultra Desktop has 500 milliwats output (quoting Tyll in a HeadRoom thread). What sort of wattage does the LCD-2 need minimum and will this suffice? I'm getting these on Friday and chomping at the bit to hear them!


----------



## Equus

Quote: 





servo said:


> I'm contemplating building either a balanced Beta22 or a balanced EHHA for use with the LCD-2s (when I get mine
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I think it was markj that had a Beta22 running LCD-2 at the Seattle meet.  Only got a brief listen to it, since it was a pretty popular station, but it sounded pretty good.  You could probably PM him for more info.
   
  @grokit - Done spending money?  Like for the next week or all time?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote: 





brainfood said:


> So the WA 6 is borderline powerful enough?


 

 The WA6 has plenty of power with the LCD-2.  It has just enough power to play loudly with most phones (Grado, Senn, Denon, Ultrasone), but not a lot extra for very loud volumes with some.  
   
  It's fantastic with IEM, but very quiet with K1000 and HE-6.  It can still play decent volume levels with HE-5 LE.  It has more power than my ALO Amphora, but it seems like a less power than the Nuforce HDP or Grahm Slee Solo SRG and Novo.  The EF5 is a good bit more powerful than the WA6, and sounds nice with the LCD-2 as well, but power isn't everything.  (note - the HDP power specs were from the prototype, and it was also increased for production noticeably).


----------



## Radio_head

I know skylab has a very high opinion of the concerto with these, but has anyone tried out the contate?  What about the Nuforce HDP?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote: 





radio_head said:


> I know skylab has a very high opinion of the concerto with these, but has anyone tried out the contate?  What about the Nuforce HDP?


 

 The HDP is a nice match for the LCD-2, and better than my SAC KH1000 amp with them.  I'm not sure if I prefer it over the EF5 or WA6 with the LCD-2 or not.  I haven't done enough comparisons yet to say.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





solude said:


> Glass is not fragile in fibres.  Don't try to wrap it around a pen or anything but mine have survived foot stomps and kids yanking on them for years now.  Here is your defacto entry point...
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.ca/1m-SonicWave-Glass-Toslink-Cable-/180510110555?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a073db35b
> 
> Personally I moved the the Wireworld because of its rotating connector guarantying that there is no tension at the connector.


 

 I like that Wireworld cable as well, but that eBay seller wants more for shipping than the cable itself to my location as he insists on using UPS. Amazon has it cheaper including free shipping, I'm pretty sure it's the same cable:
   
  http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0009JR4GK/ref=pd_luc_mri?ie=UTF8&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER
   
  I can't cancel the Monster, but I may still want to try it if it's not in "that kind" of packaging because of the spring-loaded connector as my DAC has kind of a loose socket. I hope the Wireworld fits as well in the socket, it will be a "showdown" as to which one gets returned.
   
  Whoops, I just realized this isn't an "optical cable thread" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




!

  
  Quote: 





equus said:


> @grokit - Done spending money?  Like for the next week or all time?


 

 Not even for the day, obviously ^ 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




!
   
  Okay I'm all set for now (really), maybe just a used CD here and there...


----------



## BrainFood

Quote: 





radio_head said:


> I know skylab has a very high opinion of the concerto with these,


 
   
  Yeah, but (very marginally) preferred the WA6.
   
  Proves you don't necessarily need to pump out 350 mV into 50 Ohms.


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





headphoneaddict said:


> The WA6 has plenty of power with the LCD-2.  It has just enough power to play loudly with most phones (Grado, Senn, Denon, Ultrasone), but not a lot extra for very loud volumes with some.
> 
> It's fantastic with IEM, but very quiet with K1000 and HE-6.  It can still play decent volume levels with HE-5 LE.  It has more power than my ALO Amphora, but it seems like a less power than the Nuforce HDP or Grahm Slee Solo SRG and Novo.  The EF5 is a good bit more powerful than the WA6, and sounds nice with the LCD-2 as well, but power isn't everything.  (note - the HDP power specs were from the prototype, and it was also increased for production noticeably).


 
   
  Indeed - I never use the WA6 at more than 10:00 or 10:30 on the volume control - even if you listen crazy-loud, you'd have plenty of juice with the LCD-2 on the WA6.  Doesn't mean the 6SE won't sound even better, though.


----------



## Solude

On the WA6 is the ohm selector a gain switch or something else?


----------



## BrainFood

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Indeed - I never use the WA6 at more than 10:00 or 10:30 on the volume control - even if you listen crazy-loud, you'd have plenty of juice with the LCD-2 on the WA6.


 
   
  Driving the LCD2, 11:00 is about maximum on my Berning Micro Zotl*, yet it probably only outputs around 125 mW to - 200 mW at 50R. So, lack of current doesn't seem to be translating to lack of volume.  
   
  However, out of the Berning, the LCD2's sound boxy and recessed compared to my Grado RS2's, which clearly sound more dynamic and free.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote: 





solude said:


> On the WA6 is the ohm selector a gain switch or something else?


 

 The switch selects which transformer taps are being used for the output.  With the LCD-2 it doesn't make a big difference, but with Grado or HD600 it makes a difference.


----------



## Solude

Ah like a speaker amp with the 4/6/8 connections gotcha.  Bummer, but gotcha.


----------



## Duckman

Nuforce sounds better than SAC? Might have to investigate that.


----------



## sonance

Anyone tried their LCD-2 with a Phoenix?


----------



## gknix

I think skylab has mentioned that he would think that the combination would be good, albeit a bit dar. Other amps out there would probably be a better fit. He has not heard it because his Pheonix is gone already, but I"m just paraphrasing what he said earlier


----------



## Skylab

Actually I had a concern that the combination might be too dark.  I did not get to hear them together, but I thought the Phoenix was just a touch on the dark side.  But I am not the best person to say, since I did not have them at the same time.


----------



## Solude

Alright one more time... LCD-2 owners, what would be your go to commercial amp at $1050 or less to do battle with the O2/KGSS combo?  And yes $1050 was chosen because the WA6SE is there =)  Primarily interested in digging deep into recording, so lifeless, bloom, compressed, laid back aren't attributes I want.  Feeding a diet of mostly rock with groups in heavy rotation lately being Tool, Rise Against, 10 Years and such.
   
  So game on, who's your $1K contender?


----------



## grokit

The WA6SE is going to be tough to beat, unless you can get a used one with the upgrades for that price


----------



## monsieurguzel

I second the WA6 SE as a great match up for an O2 + KGSS amp competitior.  I currently have a WA5 paired w/ LCD-2 and I much prefer it over my previous O2+KGSS combo I used to have...it is just extremely satisfying in every regards.  I head the LCD2 with WA6 SE at canjam (and actually used to own the amp) and it also sounded dynamite with the LCD-2...so I don't think you can go wrong with it.  The only reason I upgraded mine was when I bought the HE-5 since it was underpowered for that headphone. I wished I hadn't sold my WA6SE since I never even kept the HE-5 for long since it wasn't my cup of tea.


----------



## sachu

Comission a DIY EHHA or B22 build. They can both be had for about a 1000$ and just call it a day (one box solution simple 2 channel version). Both these two amps outperform the WA6SE handily when it comes to orthos and high impedance cans.


----------



## Seamaster

Quote: 





sachu said:


> Commission B22 build. (one box solution simple 2 channel version).  outperform the WA6SE handily when it comes to orthos and high impedance cans.


 

 Confirm this at meet with MarkJ's B22. Only issue is build quality with B22 if you are beginner


----------



## Solude

Unfortunately the builders for b22 ask silly money and frankly resale on DIY is not great =(.  Also not seeing why a b22 would be any better than a GS-1.  Just not a fan of anything AMB has released so not terribly interested in blowing that kind of money to see if they finally hit gold.


----------



## gknix

Those who have Woo WA6/WA6SE, could you recommend some tubes for the LCD-2?


----------



## Skylab

I'm using a Hytron 5U4G, which is a dual-side-getter with a shorter than usual bottle and base, and Sylvania black-plate 6DE7's.  The sound with the LCD-2 is surprisingly good - I have been very impressed.


----------



## jcx

Quote: 





solude said:


> ... Also not seeing why a b22 would be any better than a GS-1...


 

 B22 gives more Vswing - needed to reach 120 dB SPL with these insensitive cans, and the current for the low Z
   
  not everyone cares but some might want the ability to reproduce live acoustic event SPL without clipping -  large orchestral works can peak at >120 dB SPL, in a small room with a drum kit some snare hits will also go over 120 dB SPL 
   
  John Allen's commercial movie theater sound system recommendation is for 120 dB SPL low frequency drive capability at the center seat - since we're talking single driver headphones a few more dB peak capability is needed to drive cans to the SPL that can be reached with the theater's multichannel system going full out
   
  if the GS-1 output modules still follows closely its Gilmore Class A "Dynalo" heritage then it will only reach ~114 dB SPL with the LCD-2 - many will be satisfied but it is not the "ultimate"


----------



## Paganini Alfredo

*salutes* Agent P. Alfredo reports that HeadRoom's Ultra Desktop sounds outstanding with the Audeze LCD-2! There is nothing further to report at this time! *cuts salute*


----------



## alota

Quote: 





sachu said:


> Comission a DIY EHHA or B22 build. They can both be had for about a 1000$ and just call it a day (one box solution simple 2 channel version). Both these two amps outperform the WA6SE handily when it comes to orthos and high impedance cans.


 

 this amplifier is good for the lcd-2?(i´m seriously thinking about purchasing a lcd-2)

  aldo


----------



## BaboonGuy

Quote: 





sachu said:


> Comission a DIY EHHA or B22 build. They can both be had for about a 1000$ and just call it a day (one box solution simple 2 channel version). Both these two amps outperform the WA6SE handily when it comes to orthos and high impedance cans.


 

 What gain would you recommend for both of the amps?


----------



## sachu

For the EHHA i reduced the gain to 5 for the LCD-2. But if you are building it for all orthos and high impedance headphones in general go with a gain of 7 or 8.


----------



## Shahrose

Quote: 





alota said:


> this amplifier is good for the lcd-2?(i´m seriously thinking about purchasing a lcd-2)
> 
> aldo


 
   
  I doubt a 4ch. balanced Beta (w/ DACT) wouldn't be good for any headphone out there.


----------



## alota

Quote: 





shahrose said:


> I doubt a 4ch. balanced Beta (w/ DACT) wouldn't be good for any headphone out there.


 


 i´m sorry but i don´t speak english.
  your post is positive or negative for the beta-22?
  with hte translator, i don´t understand the meaning.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  aldo


----------



## Solude

He said the b22 is good for all headphones.


----------



## alota

Quote: 





solude said:


> He said the b22 is good for all headphones.


 


 thank you. i speak italian, sicilian, portuguese, a little french and spanish but, i do not why, i have great difficulty with english.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  my apologies
  aldo


----------



## achristilaw

Quote: 





alota said:


> thank you. i speak italian, sicilian, portuguese, a little french and spanish but, i do not why, i have great difficulty with english.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I can barely manage English....and don't speak any of the five you have mentioned...you're doing fine!


----------



## alota

Quote: 





achristilaw said:


> I can barely manage English....and don't speak any of the five you have mentioned...you're doing fine!


 












  aldo


----------



## frenshprince

Hi There,
   
  I'm looking for an amp that would work great with the Audeze LCD2 and the The Beyer T1.
  I was thinking at the Meier Concerto or maybe the Violetric VA200, but a french fellow told me that they're expensive for what they are.
   
  Any suggestion ?


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





frenshprince said:


> Hi There,
> 
> I'm looking for an amp that would work great with the Audeze LCD2 and the The Beyer T1.
> I was thinking at the Meier Concerto or maybe the Violetric VA200, but a french fellow told me that they're expensive for what they are.
> ...


 

 Have read through the existing thread?


----------



## frenshprince

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> Have read through the existing thread?


 

 Yes I have.
   
  I've read that Skylab tried the Meier Concerto on the Audeze and really liked it.
  He prefers the WA6, but just a notch.
   
  I've also read that Santacore has the Violetric, and is verry happy with it.
   
  But what I wanna know is if those amp work well with the T1 as well.
  And also, considering the bad things on them I heard according to a a french fellow, if there is a better choice for the LCD-2.


----------



## Radio_head

I was actually wondering the same thing.  Just ordered a T1 and am on the list for LCD-2's.  I know Skylab liked both the T1's and the LCD-2's with the Concerto.  But is there a better (in my case sub-1000$) option?


----------



## dallan

As stated earlier, I bet on the V200 after first seeing the specs and then hearing it.  I have heard mixed things about Meiers amps and have only heard one.  That ones particular owner didn't have a high opinion of it either.  I think it was the model before the Concerto though.  That was at Canjam 09.  Didn't sound all that bad to me actually but when an owner complains i worry a bit.  On the other head the owner of the V200 was very happy with his and he had the LCD2 in line.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





dallan said:


> As stated earlier, I bet on the V200 after first seeing the specs and then hearing it.  I have heard mixed things about Meiers amps and have only heard one.  That ones particular owner didn't have a high opinion of it either.  I think it was the model before the Concerto though.  That was at Canjam 09.  Didn't sound all that bad to me actually but when an owner complains i worry a bit.  On the other head the owner of the V200 was very happy with his and he had the LCD2 in line.


 

 Sample sizes of one are dangerous.


----------



## dallan

You mean the Meiers?


----------



## frenshprince

So I made my décision : Its going to be the *SPL Auditor*.
   

   
  It's incredibely good reputation and its Hi-End specifications are the reasons.
   
_Frequency Response: ‹5 Hz to ›200 kHz (-3 dB)
 CMR:-80 dBu (@1 kHz, 0 dBu input level and unity gain)
Crosstalk: -84 dB (@1kHz)
 THD: 0,001 % (@ 1kHz, 0 dBu input level and unity gain)
Noise: -97 dBu (A-weighted)
 Dynamic Range: 129 dB (@ 600 Ohms Impedance)_


----------



## dallan

Only problem with that is the power is more on higher impedance.  Still probably enough but isn't the LCD-2 like 52 Ohms?  I would think that you would want that to be the focus of an amp for these phones.
   
   

  Max. Output Performance:
  1,7W (+32,2dBm) @ 1 kHz and 600 Ohms connection
  360mW (+25,6dBm) @ 1 kHz and 30 Ohms connection


----------



## Kurt

Quote: 





frenshprince said:


> So I made my décision : Its going to be the *SPL Auditor*.


 

 Do a search for SPL and "low impedance" headphones. Also, Auditor and short circuit killing several headphones.


----------



## Duckman

Freshprince,
   
  I have the LCD-2 and an Auditor at home at the moment, and the match is definitely *not* a good one. The Auditor is fairly good for the T1 (used to have it), but again not an ideal match IMO.
   
  Cheers,
   
  Dave


----------



## skyblue

I agree that the Auditor, or Phonitor for that matter, is more compatible with high impedance ( i.e. >300 Ohms ) headphones.
  it is due to their 120 ohms output impedance.
   
  My experience on Phonitor when paired with AKG 702 and JVC 1000 was not a satisfying one.  
   
  I'll presume the LCD-2 would require an amplifier that is capable of providing superb micro dynamic/transient control to unfold the phone's sound potential.  By this an amplifier has to be stable when driving current into low-impedance phones like LCD_2.
   
  Just my 2 cents ...


----------



## frenshprince

Outch, you all killed my dream 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  If I understand, it has to be a amp with possibility to change gain according to headphones impedance.
   
  So considering that the *T1* and the *LCD-2* have different impédance, what should I buy to be happy ?


----------



## Ypoknons

It's not just a matter of gain, it's also a matter of the amp's output impedance. When the amp's output impedance is higher than the headphone's impedance, the response is affected. It's not always a bad thing, it's possible that the headphone's FR will change for the better, but often it's bad. I liked this thread, nikongod can give a better explanation than I.


----------



## frenshprince

Thanks Ypoknons.
  But It's still sound quite complicated to me.
   
  So in this particular case, the Auditor will work well with T1 and other high impedance cans (like 770/880/990 at 600ohm), but not with the audeze nor cans at 80oms.
   
  Am I correct ?


----------



## Ypoknons

... I can't say definitely it'll be bad, but it's a risk. There are negative listening impressions + there is technical reason to believe this combo will be bad, so I'd avoid it if I were you.


----------



## Kurt

Quote: 





			
				frenshprince said:
			
		

> Am I correct ?


 

  
  http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/497872/my-impression-of-grado-ps1000s-senn-hd800s-w-rsa-b52-amp-question-on-a-good-solid-state-amp-for-these#post_6723849
   
   
  Quote: 





			
				nickchen said:
			
		

> Hands off the Phonitor. I friend of mine had the SPL Auditor (2 times), and these things killed 5 or 6 headphones (including one T1) in the course of time. They SPL circuits are obviously too "audiophile"...


 

  
  Quote: 





			
				nickchen said:
			
		

> He had bought a 2nd hand (almost new) Auditor, which sounded fine (except high distortion sounds when switching on/off or when pluggin in/out). But soon his cans died, so he sent it to SPL for repair. They officially stated the amp wasn't faulty, but nevertheless sent him a brand new as exchange. That 2nd one worked fine for a couple of weeks, then the HP started to die again (a T1 was also victim BTW). He sent it again to SPL, they said, one Opamp was defective, and they stated that is was a user fault - to slow plugging in and out with too long resulting short circuits.
> 
> Normal amps have protective measures for that case, but SPL is *audiophile*, they state it sounds better without...
> 
> They sent him a 3rd one, which he sold directly.


----------



## oqvist

Very few amps let you adjust output impedance. My Trafomatic Head One allows for switching between 30/100/300. I hope to be able to hear it some day too see how much difference it makes... Some have dual inputs one for low z and one for high z.
   
  As for the Auditor it´s a neutral amp with no added warmth or audiophile tricks from my experience. Some like that some doesn´t. In comparison to my GHP I find the T1 being clearly better on the Auditor whereas I preferr the Goldpoint headphone Pro on just about all my low impedance headphones. The Auditor aren´t bad with them but doesn´t quite match up to the Goldpoint I feel. Much due to better impedance matching I suspect. I don´t know how much current the GHP is capable of delivering though I suspect it´s higher then the Auditors.
   
  Both these are really nice neutral amps and thus won´t destroy nothing.
  I would die to somehow get to know what current output my Goldpoint headphone Pro has though. But I suspect it has plenty enough because the bass control of it is phenomenal. And I want to believe that both the Pro 900/DX 1000 would be very revealing on sloppy bass 
   
  Auditor can congest a bit with my low impedance headphones just like the T1 can congest on the GHP slightly. It gives more body and "rumble" so some may actually appreciate that.


----------



## Radio_head

Has anyone tried the Wa6 with both the T1 and the LCD-2?  I know skylab thought it sounded great with the LCD-2, but would it also work well with the Beyer?


----------



## frenshprince

Quote: 





kurt said:


> http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/497872/my-impression-of-grado-ps1000s-senn-hd800s-w-rsa-b52-amp-question-on-a-good-solid-state-amp-for-these#post_6723849


 






   
  I don't know what to think anymore...


----------



## kwkarth

Too many questions, too little critical thinking, understanding, or individual research and analysis.  Seems to be a pervasive phenomenon with the new "audiophiles" of today.  DIY with no understanding.
   
  Life does not consist solely of cookbook and paint by the numbers,  So too, is audiophile-ism.  The more you truly understand, the more you will truly be able to achieve your dreams and obtain enjoyment and satisfaction from this hobby.


----------



## BrainFood

Radiohead, nice avatar.  Is that you in the picture?


----------



## Radio_head

Quote: 





brainfood said:


> Radiohead, nice avatar.  Is that you in the picture?


 

 Thanks.  No that is not me - that is a picture of folk legend Nick Drake.  
   
  Here is a picture of me: 
   

   
  When I'm not listening to awesome headphones, I'm usually killing all these random people who all know martial arts because they wronged me somehow.


----------



## Paganini Alfredo

Looks like that clown from the Transporter.


----------



## Hybrys

Quote: 





paganini alfredo said:


> Looks like that clown from the Transporter.


 

 Because it is!  /legasp
   
  I think I just got my hands on a CS300x original, with the Mullard tubes.  For $1900 CAD.
   
  Schaweet.


----------



## TigzStudio

I am amazed to hear how so many amps dont quite "work right" with the LCD-2's....some big names too.....its a strange beast.
   
  in 2 days you will hear my opinion on the Roc (balanced) and Stacker II with the LCD-2.  We shall see!​


----------



## achristilaw

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> Too many questions, too little critical thinking, understanding, or individual research and analysis.  Seems to be a pervasive phenomenon with the new "audiophiles" of today.  DIY with no understanding.
> 
> Life does not consist solely of cookbook and paint by the numbers,  So too, is audiophile-ism.  The more you truly understand, the more you will truly be able to achieve your dreams and obtain enjoyment and satisfaction from this hobby.


 

 Amen..ism!


----------



## gogogasgas

This thread is definitely narrowing the field.
   
At the medium to higher end, if I have read this thread (and others) correctly, the *Violectric 200* is a front runner amongst the off-the-shelf, solid state offerings.
   
Any punters tried the* Luxman P-1u *headphone amp with the LCDs yet?


----------



## Ypoknons

There have been comments about P1U x LCD2.


----------



## oqvist

Quote: 





gogogasgas said:


> This thread is definitely narrowing the field.
> 
> At the medium to higher end, if I have read this thread (and others) correctly, the *Violectric 200* is a front runner amongst the off-the-shelf, solid state offerings.
> 
> Any punters tried the* Luxman P-1u *headphone amp with the LCDs yet?


 

 immtbiker used a luxman P1 I believe. check the behemoth lcd-2 thread.


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





thinker said:


> been listening for a while on LCD-2 with Lehmann audio black cube linear usb and its better than with tube amps that i have used.The Lehmann keeps the control on 20db output and the performance seems to have the right distance.The overall performance is natural and smooth,its unbelievable natural.Hope you all get the LCD soon


 

 Sweet, just what I needed to hear.

  
  Quote: 





thinker said:


> The LCD-2 appers to be warm when you hear it at the first time then later you realize that its very source related, the LCD-2 dont like that some flavor is added it reproduces the music how it is in real life and the music in real life is colorful .
> If you buy a good or expensive DAC wich is on the warm side it probably dont match with LCD.I like to recommend a safe combo for LCD-2, wich is very musical clean,clear and  has the right tonal balance and gives enough control to LCD-2.
> This combo offers all the 3D images wich is one of LCD-2 strenghts.This combo does not prefer a certain type of music ,from Jazz to Classic all sounds great.This combo does not take much space from your table its quite compact.
> I use Mac pro laptop> belkin USB cable>Lehman BCL  USB> LCD-2.The possibility to go wrong with those super expensive sources is high with LCD.Its also important to notice ,that the stock Apple USB cable doesnt suit with this combo and i found that the Belkin USB cable suits best ,the timing is spot on .I will put down probably later this day a paper where Lehmann audio explaines how computer based data should operated optimally.
> .....and please get the LCD-2 first and then buy the amp and source otherwise the second hand market will be filled up.


 

 Not so sweet.  The Bryston DAC definitely has tinge of warmth.  Then again I have enjoyed the HD650 with the equivalent of soaking biscuits in the coffee until its soggy.
  
   
  Quote: 





cravenz said:


> question: posted this in the LCD-2 thread, but the question seems to have been overlooked. I was wondering if these specs of the M-stage would be able to power the LCD-2? I'm not sure how to read the technical specs. Also, I wouldn't want them to just power, I'd be looking more at whether it has enough power to sufficiently drive the LCD-2s to it's potential. Any help is appreciated.
> 
> 
> Frequency Response: 10 Hz (-0.3dB) ~ 35kHz (-1dB)
> ...


 


 These specs look like they were pinched straight from the BCL - there may well be a positive matchup there.


----------



## Equus

Quote: 





oqvist said:


> immtbiker used a luxman P1 I believe. check the behemoth lcd-2 thread.


 

 Yup, just read his impressions.  In addition, the general impressions from Seamaster's P-1u paired with the LCD-2 at the Seattle meet were not glowingly positive overall.


----------



## grokit

Has anyone considered the Music Fidelity M1 HPA as an amp for the LCD-2? I think it is about to be released in the US.


----------



## TigzStudio

Quote: 





grokit said:


> Has anyone considered the Music Fidelity M1 HPA as an amp foir the LCD-2? I think it is about to be released in the US.


 

 interesting....here are some specs on it
   
   
*Output*
  Output Power 1.1W into 32Ω
  Output impedance less than 1Ω
  Output level 5.2V rms max
  Frequency response 15Hz to 75kHz -3dB max.
  Signal to noise >109dB “A”- wtd
  Total harmonic distortion <0.008% 10Hz to 20kHz
   
*Connections*
  Line level input 1 pair RCA line in left and right
  Line level outputs 1 pair RCA line out left and right
  1 pair RCA pre-out left and right
  Digital input 1 USB type ‘B’ connector for computer/PDA
   
*Power requirement*
  Mains voltages 90-250VAC 50/60Hz
  Consumption 25 Watts
   
*Weight*
  Unit only, unboxed 3.4 kg (7½ lbs) In shipping carton & inc. accessories 4.1 kg (9 lbs)
   
*Dimensions*
  Wide 220 mm (8⅔”) High, including feet 100 mm (4”) Deep (front to back) 300 mm (12”) including terminals
  Standard accessories
  IEC type mains lead (10-Amp type)


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





tigzstudio said:


> interesting....here are some specs on it
> 
> *Output*
> Output Power 1.1W into 32Ω
> ...


 
  Looks like the M1-HPA's got the chops to do it right!  Yesterday, I had the pleasure of listening to the Cavalli Liquid Fire driving the LCD-2s.  Schweet!


----------



## TigzStudio

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> Looks like the M1-HPA's got the chops to do it right!  Yesterday, I had the pleasure of listening to the Cavalli Liquid Fire driving the LCD-2s.  Schweet!


 

 Where did you get such a pleasure?!


----------



## Currawong

Sounds like enough grunt, about the same as my Phoenix. A quick check says it'll be 499 pounds when it goes on sale. That's about Concerto money with a DAC included, though it remains to be seen if that's any good.


----------



## oqvist

V200 money as well... It looks cute at least


----------



## Equus

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> Yesterday, I had the pleasure of listening to the Cavalli Liquid Fire driving the LCD-2s.  Schweet!


 

 Mmmm...that's one of the ones I'll definitely have to listen to if/when I get down there.


----------



## sachu

Umm..yeah that and the Liquid Gold that I am listening to here (prototype version)...Solid State never sounded this good i tell you.


----------



## average_joe

I had the M1 on my radar before I got the RPX-33, which I hope drive the LCD-2 well.  They are great with my T1, so here is hoping they are 2 for 2!


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





tigzstudio said:


> Where did you get such a pleasure?!


 

 A fellow head-fier just got one and invited me over for a listen.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





equus said:


> Mmmm...that's one of the ones I'll definitely have to listen to if/when I get down there.


 
  I'm sure you'll be able to if you make it to the meet.  Alex from Audeze should be there too!!


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





sachu said:


> Umm..yeah that and the Liquid Gold that I am listening to here (prototype version)...Solid State never sounded this good i tell you.


 

 I can't wait to hear that puppy!


----------



## sonance

Is the Liquid Gold going to be a commercial amp, or is it a DIY-only design, as I understand the other Cavalli amps are?


----------



## sachu

Quote: 





sonance said:


> Is the Liquid Gold going to be a commercial amp, or is it a DIY-only design, as I understand the other Cavalli amps are?


 

 The Liquid Gold and Liquid Fire are commercial offerings only.


----------



## TigzStudio

Quote: 





sachu said:


> The Liquid Gold and Liquid Fire are commercial offerings only.


 

 Has there been any news on this front?  Predicted release dates?


----------



## Bloodoath

Quote: 





radio_head said:


> Thanks.  No that is not me - that is a picture of folk legend Nick Drake.
> 
> Here is a picture of me:
> 
> ...


 
  LOL!!!


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





currawong said:


> Sounds like enough grunt, about the same as my Phoenix. A quick check says it'll be 499 pounds when it goes on sale. That's about Concerto money with a DAC included, though it remains to be seen if that's any good.


 
   
  The DAC in the M1 HPA is USB-only, but they have a multi-input matching DAC as well:

  Oddly, the M1 DAC offers balanced outputs, but the HPA is limited to single-ended use.


----------



## gogogasgas

Quote: 





ypoknons said:


> There have been comments about P1U x LCD2.


 
  Quote: 





oqvist said:


> immtbiker used a luxman P1 I believe. check the behemoth lcd-2 thread.


 

 Thanks, but there wasn't much that I could see in the thread regarding the Luxman P-1u and the LCD-2s. Mind, it is a long thread and I could have missed some other comments...
  Any posters got something to add in regard to the Luxman P-1u and the LCD-2s?


----------



## Hybrys

Quote: 





gogogasgas said:


> Thanks, but there wasn't much that I could see in the thread regarding the Luxman P-1u and the LCD-2s. Mind, it is a long thread and I could have missed some other comments...
> Any posters got something to add in regard to the Luxman P-1u and the LCD-2s?


 

 There was a note on them not pairing well, being too bright, in the HE-6 loaner program thread.


----------



## Radio_head

The m1 looks really tempting at that price point, especially since I wouldn't need to buy the DAC... has anyone tried these with a Rudistor?


----------



## Equus

Quote: 





hybrys said:


> There was a note on them not pairing well, being too bright, in the HE-6 loaner program thread.


 

 That was my general impression when I listened to the combo at the local meet.  The material I used also really got harsh in the treble on the T1's with the P-1u.  To my ears, it also didn't play really well to the LCD-2's strengths in the mids...it sounded somewhat thin and non-organic.  Take this with the world's largest grain of salt, however, since it was at a meet, so not ideal conditions.


----------



## gogogasgas

Thanks, Equus. Like you say, there were a few variables that could have effected your experience with the LCD-2/Luxman combo. However, the information you have provided gives a good starting point. It will be interesting to read how other Headfiers fare with the Luxman in combination with the LCD-2s.
Curiouser and curiouser!


----------



## Equus

Yup, lots of variables.  IMO, these aren't cans that really blow you away with a distinctive eye-popping sound signature and they're not closed, so it's pretty easy to for the rig, material, or environment, to make a difference.  Of course, some of the "negative" things in material could actually be part of the material and not something "wrong" with the rig too.  And, as in most things, there are going to be differing opinions because of differing perceptions.  The behemoth LCD-2 thread itself is a prime example.


----------



## gogogasgas

Thanks, Equus for the words of wisdom. The LCD-2s have really started a fire of interest, that's for sure.


----------



## Seamaster

Quote: 





equus said:


> That was my general impression when I listened to the combo at the local meet.  The material I used also really got harsh in the treble on the T1's with the P-1u.  To my ears, it also didn't play really well to the LCD-2's strengths in the mids...it sounded somewhat thin and non-organic.  Take this with the world's largest grain of salt, however, since it was at a meet, so not ideal conditions.


 




  Quote: 





equus said:


> Yup, lots of variables.  IMO, these aren't cans that really blow you away with a distinctive eye-popping sound signature and they're not closed, so it's pretty easy to for the rig, material, or environment, to make a difference.  Of course, some of the "negative" things in material could actually be part of the material and not something "wrong" with the rig too.  And, as in most things, there are going to be differing opinions because of differing perceptions.  The behemoth LCD-2 thread itself is a prime example.


 

 The set-up was:
  Meridian G08.1 Known for soomth sound
  ELF Super Helix Gold cable XLR (gold plated copper), sound very warm, and more organic than my Zu Varial XLR
  Luxman P-1u
  T1 with stock cable
  VH Audio Flavor 4 power cables (not best match to the CDP, but not a bright cable)
   
  Look, there is nothing harsh or bright sounding in the chain except the P1u


----------



## Gu Sensei

I have the P-1 and never found it to emphasize any brightness in headphones or recordings. Usually, the opposite. I feel it is generally a good match with brighter, peaky phones.
   
  I will be able to listen to the LCD-2s with the P-1 extensively when I get back from my trip next week. I will post my impressions.


----------



## TigzStudio

*Audio-GD Roc* (Balanced/acss fed by Ref 5)
   
  I am finding amazing synergy with the above amp and my LCD-2's, with one point....I needed to change the bias voltage on the Roc to 12v to achieve the awesomeness of the LCD-2.
   
  so +1 for that combo, I've been loving it ever since I made the change, and its not hard to do at all.


----------



## Seamaster

I did listen my T1 (not LCD-2) at home again after the meet with P-1u...humm...still, bright. To be technically correct: the presentation only warmer than other SS amp as whole, but it does  emphasize HF, which make me pay more attention them. Some not ideal recorded CD become little unbareble like Sinead O'connor's Troy, I feel little burning in my ear.
   
   
   
   I also supprise to see good senergy between Cyber 20 and T1. Just to show I am not bad mouthing just about anything.


----------



## Equus

Quote: 





gu sensei said:


> I have the P-1 and never found it to emphasize any brightness in headphones or recordings. Usually, the opposite. I feel it is generally a good match with brighter, peaky phones.
> 
> I will be able to listen to the LCD-2s with the P-1 extensively when I get back from my trip next week. I will post my impressions.


 

 Cool, it'll be interesting to see if you hear any differences.  We all have different ears, so some differing opinions is inevitable.  It'll be good to hear other viewpoints!

  
  Quote: 





seamaster said:


> The set-up was:
> Meridian G08.1 Known for soomth sound
> ELF Super Helix Gold cable XLR (gold plated copper), sound very warm, and more organic than my Zu Varial XLR
> Luxman P-1u
> ...


 

 Heh, my comment about the variables wasn't specific to the P-1u you brought to the meet, but in general.  It could be taken specifically to the P-1u when you consider that I was using an unusual song to audition the rig that has a very bright piano run.  Thanks for clarifying the setup.  The additional info may be useful to someone.


----------



## thread

As I continue to wait my turn, have any of the lucky LCD-2 owners heard them out of a RudiStor RPX-33 yet?


----------



## gogogasgas

Quote:


seamaster said:


> Look, there is nothing harsh or bright sounding in the chain except the P1u


 
*Yes- the audio chain you describe is good. Methinks it could be the source audio. *

 Quote:


gu sensei said:


> I have the P-1 and never found it to emphasize any brightness in headphones or recordings. Usually, the opposite. I feel it is generally a good match with brighter, peaky phones.
> I will be able to listen to the LCD-2s with the P-1 extensively when I get back from my trip next week. I will post my impressions.


 
*Yes- I don't think I have ever heard a bright piece of Luxman amplification equipment. In fact, as you say, they always err a little on the warm side.*
*It would be great to read your comments on the LCD-2 and Luxman. Please post them on your return.*

 Quote:


seamaster said:


> I did listen my T1 (not LCD-2) at home again after the meet with P-1u...humm...still, bright. To be technically correct: the presentation only warmer than other SS amp as whole, but it does  emphasize HF, which make me pay more attention them. Some not ideal recorded CD become little unbareble like Sinead O'connor's Troy, I feel little burning in my ear.
> I also supprise to see good senergy between Cyber 20 and T1. Just to show I am not bad mouthing just about anything.


 
*So, are you saying that the Luxman solid state headphone amp sounded warmer than another solid state headphone amp, but bright in comparison to a tube headphone amp? If so, wouldn't that be a tubes Vs solid state issue, rather a Luxman P-1u issue?*
  
*Quote:*


equus said:


> Cool, it'll be interesting to see if you hear any differences.  We all have different ears, so some differing opinions is inevitable.  It'll be good to hear other viewpoints!
> Heh, my comment about the variables wasn't specific to the P-1u you brought to the meet, but in general.  It could be taken specifically to the P-1u when you consider that I was using an unusual song to audition the rig that has a very bright piano run.  Thanks for clarifying the setup.  The additional info may be useful to someone.


 
*I agree Equus, **the music could have been be the culprit. Also, and **I don't want to go down this road too far, piano from a digital source is notoriously hard to get right.*


----------



## Asr

Quote: 





seamaster said:


> I did listen my T1 (not LCD-2) at home again after the meet with P-1u...humm...still, bright. To be technically correct: the presentation only warmer than other SS amp as whole, but it does  emphasize HF, which make me pay more attention them. Some not ideal recorded CD become little unbareble like Sinead O'connor's Troy, I feel little burning in my ear.


 

 As a difference of opinion, I will state that I have also heard the Luxman P-1u (and with the Beyerdynamic T1, among other headphones) and did not think the amp has a "bright" sound either by itself or when paired with the T1. I have a strong bias towards treble in general too (and my reference headphone for treble is the Qualia 010). I wrote a mini-review of the amp that can be found in this forum.


----------



## Currawong

It probably has something to do with LCD-2s.  I'm sure the Luxman engineers far from had orthodynamics in mind when designing the P-1 and P-1u.


----------



## gogogasgas

From the comments, the LCD-2s are revealing. However, would they be considered a difficult load to drive? Kwkarth, what's your take on this? Looking at the *specs for the Luxman P-1u, *would you say (at least on paper and perhaps guessing a little from the open box pic) that the P-1u has a good starting point under its hood?


----------



## Solude

No orthos and stats don't pose a difficult load per say.  What they both present is one that needs more power than others, massive voltage for stats, ortho inefficiency and low impedance means more current than most other cans.


----------



## gogogasgas

Thanks, Solude. I don't know about the P-1u, but other Luxman amps I've owned over the years had high-current on tap (at least relative to their rated output- think NAD, and then better overall IMO). A big, smooth sound with plenty of headroom.


----------



## Solude

Aye the Luxmans are voltage limited to be sure, but pretty much endless current on tap.  Now if only you didn't need both to create power


----------



## gogogasgas

HHHmm. If we assume that P-1u has the current, how can we know about the voltage? (you can also assume that my technical expertise would fit into a small teaspoon...) Is there a clue in the *P-1u specs*? I have read on this site, that the (high impedance?) Senn HD800 likes high voltage. I have also read that a Japanese reviewer didn't like the HD-800s in combination with the P-1u. Perhaps we could, at a s-t-r-e-t-c-h, partially conclude that the Luxman may not have voltage in the same abundance as current? I have also read that the (lower impedance?) LCD-2s like a high current amp. Perhaps then, the LCD-2s are a good match for a Luxman amp?
   
  If we go by what Audeze states as impedance for the LCD-2s, that's 50 Ohms (91db sensitivity), the Vilolectric SEEMS to have more power. But knowing that output specs can look good on paper and be gutless in practice, I wonder if the P-1u is actually 'less powerful'.
   
  Comparing the limited specs for the P-1u to the *Violectric HPA V-200*:
   
*Luxman* P-1u =
  8 Ohms - 2W+2W 
  16 Ohms - 1W+1W
  32 Ohms - 500mW+500mW
  NOTE: I couldn't see any voltage specs for the P-1u
   
*Violectric* = 

Output Voltage in 50 Ohms​       11,6 VOutput Power in 50 Ohms​       2700 mWOutput Voltage in 32 Ohms​       8,0 VOutput Power in 32 Ohms​       2000 mW
  NOTE: I couldn't work out if the Violectric's specs were per channel or sum total.


----------



## electropop

I think there is something else as well. I don't know what to say from the specs of my EF-5, but it's hideous with the LCD-2s sound-wise. Same goes for my Graham Slee Voyager. Those are the only two separate headphone amps I have at the moment. The LCD-2s sound much better straight out of an iPod's headphone out, which doesn't have more current or voltage to deliver compared to either of the separate amps. Go figure.
   
  I'll be making a trip to a local hifi-store to try a bundle of different amps and sources. They sell mostly Linn, Naim and Exposure source wise, but have a huge variety of different headphone amplifiers. Will be interesting.
   
  But yeah, I've come to the conclusion so far that I can't really deduce anything from specs alone. I have to hear it. If nothing can beat the iPod, I'm both a happy and a sad man. Less money to lose, but there are some parts I'd like to "fix" in the sound...


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





gogogasgas said:


> From the comments, the LCD-2s are revealing. However, would they be considered a difficult load to drive? Kwkarth, what's your take on this? Looking at the *specs for the Luxman P-1u, *would you say (at least on paper and perhaps guessing a little from the open box pic) that the P-1u has a good starting point under its hood?


 

 In many ways, the LCD-2s are a very easy load to drive in that the load is purely resistive.  At any frequency, the load is always 52 ohms, no more, no less.  Amplifiers have dreams at night about meeting such a nice headphone.
   
  On the other hand, the LCD-2, like a number of other popular cans, can sink a lot of current when the program material calls for it and some amplifiers are not up to the task entirely.  Even cans like the HD-600 and AKG-K701/2 benefit from an amp that can deliver current at musical crescendos far beyond what average requirements call for. 
   
  On paper, the Luxman looks like it should be fairly ok for the LCD-2, certainly for average music.  It's rated at half a watt into 32 ohms, and you can bank on at least half that (a quarter of a watt) being available at 52 ohms, but it's certainly not overpowered, remember the LCD-2s can sink 15 watts peak!!!


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





solude said:


> No orthos and stats don't pose a difficult load per say.  What they both present is one that needs more power than others, massive voltage for stats, ortho inefficiency and low impedance means more current than most other cans.


 

 Stats do pose an extremely reactive and difficult load to an amp.  Driving a stat is exactly like driving a capacitor.


----------



## ctemkin

Quote: 





quigs said:


> First post, although I have been lurking for about 3 weeks. I have a couple questions. I read a review on the Emmeline, "The Apache" and a review on the Audez'e LCD-2. Would the Apache be a good match for the LCD-2?  Also, would the LCD-2 benefit going balanced? Thanks.


 


 I have the same two questions as QUIGS.  Now that more LCD-2s are out there, I wonder if anyone can provide insight on them.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote: 





electropop said:


> I think there is something else as well. I don't know what to say from the specs of my EF-5, but it's hideous with the LCD-2s sound-wise. Same goes for my Graham Slee Voyager. Those are the only two separate headphone amps I have at the moment. The LCD-2s sound much better straight out of an iPod's headphone out, which doesn't have more current or voltage to deliver compared to either of the separate amps. Go figure.
> 
> I'll be making a trip to a local hifi-store to try a bundle of different amps and sources. They sell mostly Linn, Naim and Exposure source wise, but have a huge variety of different headphone amplifiers. Will be interesting.
> 
> But yeah, I've come to the conclusion so far that I can't really deduce anything from specs alone. I have to hear it. If nothing can beat the iPod, I'm both a happy and a sad man. Less money to lose, but there are some parts I'd like to "fix" in the sound...


 

 Weird, my LCD-2 sound nice with my EF5 amp.


----------



## Seamaster

Luxman has plenty of power drive LCD-2. It give me feeling it has MUCH more power than my WA22. For driving both LCD-2 or T1, the amp did not breath hard at all. No problem there.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





headphoneaddict said:


> Weird, my LCD-2 sound nice with my EF5 amp.


 

 Yet you were having some problems with certain piano sounds creating listening fatigue, was that with the EF5? I thought that the LCD-2/EF5 combo sounded good as well, but I could not listen for too long at a time either. To me it was a combination of listening fatigue and the clamping of the pads on my eyeglasses on my temples. I could never tell which was worse but the combination was a little too much for me.


----------



## SemiAudiophile

Quote: 





electropop said:


> The LCD-2s sound much better straight out of an iPod's headphone out, which doesn't have more current or voltage to deliver compared to either of the separate amps. Go figure.
> 
> But yeah, I've come to the conclusion so far that I can't really deduce anything from specs alone. I have to hear it. If nothing can beat the iPod, I'm both a happy and a sad man. Less money to lose, but there are some parts I'd like to "fix" in the sound...


 

 That is also what I found. ipod is the standard test I use with them. It's easily audible in the midrange whether or not they are good match. If they aren't powered right, the midrange would either be sucked out dry or sound like it's being strained. You can't really rely on specs with the LCD-2; hearing is your best test.


----------



## gogogasgas

Great input from all.
  Another interesting thing - the older Luxman P-1 (on paper) has more power. 32 Ohm = 1 W+1 W and 64 Ohm = 500 mW+500 mW. Huh? The P-1u is a Class A amp. My (limited) experience with Class A designs is that they have plenty 'o grunt, despite what the output figures may state. They offer a really big, impressive sound.
   
  However, unless Luxman are under-rating the specs of their gear, the P-1u may still not have the output to drive the LCD-2s to their their full potential.
   
  Arrggghh. So many variables!
   
  The Violectric, at least on paper and from what I've read on this site, could be the ticket. A bonus, it's much cheaper too!
   
  PS Eletropop- love that Zappa quote.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

grokit said:


> Yet you were having some problems with certain piano sounds creating listening fatigue, was that with the EF5? I thought that the LCD-2/EF5 combo sounded good as well, but I could not listen for too long at a time either. To me it was a combination of listening fatigue and the clamping of the pads on my eyeglasses on my temples. I could never tell which was worse but the combination was a little too much for me.







 My LCD-2 sound less fatiguing with my EF5 amp than my SAC KH1000 amp. I'm trying to stretch out my headband slowly over time.


----------



## dallan

Quote: 





gogogasgas said:


> The Violectric, at least on paper and from what I've read on this site, could be the ticket. A bonus, it's much cheaper too!
> 
> .


 

 Yep, My Violectric that I bought specially for the LCD-2 is sitting here waiting for them to arrive whenever my number comes up.  Luckily I did hear them on one before i ordered it, drove them perfectly but i have to admit i am normally not a solid state guy so different sound than i am used to, very fast.


----------



## Duckman

News: the CTH drives the LCD-2, but not  perfectly. Lower mids and below are a bit veiled and mushy. Voices are very natural sounding though. Instrument separation is fair but not great. Think I need more power.
   
  Still a fun listen, but not matching my O2/Exstata combo yet. It is intriguing though -  I feel there is more to be had from the LCD-2.
   
  Anyone selling an EHHA?


----------



## superjohny

nobody tried BUDA + LCD-2？


----------



## TigzStudio

I am going to be buying more SS or hybrid amps to try to find something that can compete with the Stacker II+LCD-2, so far nada.  Stacker II is the best I have ever heard, I really cant find any faults.  Most of all I am just curious if any SS offering out there can compete with the SII+LCD2.  Next on my List to try and compare will probably be a Violetric v181 or a Apex Peak. Of course any Cavalli amp that comes out in the future I will be trying out as well.


----------



## electropop

Quote: 





headphoneaddict said:


> Weird, my LCD-2 sound nice with my EF5 amp.


 

 It muffled them up really bad. Bass became overly strong and monotonic. No high frequency detail retrieveal.. Mid range was out of focus and everything just seemed to lack the basic definition. Tried out of the Hifiman HM-801, Linn Classik Music and the iPod 160gb classic.
  Actually they sounded worse even straight out of the 801 compared to the iPod.
   
  With iPod, everything is clean and comes out naturally with the phone's characteristic punch, but without emphasis on practically anything. I can hear notes as well. What lacks is the ultimate control I'd like to have. But maybe what I'm expecting to hear on some recordings isn't actually there? I don't know 
   
  @gogogasgas
   
  Thanks, hehe. Listening to Grand Wazoo at the moment and I can only now tell why all the Zappa fans dig Erroneous so much


----------



## sachu

Quote: 





duckman said:


> News: the CTH drives the LCD-2, but not  perfectly. Lower mids and below are a bit veiled and mushy. Voices are very natural sounding though. Instrument separation is fair but not great. Think I need more power.
> 
> Still a fun listen, but not matching my O2/Exstata combo yet. It is intriguing though -  I feel there is more to be had from the LCD-2.
> 
> Anyone selling an EHHA?


 
  I won't hide the fact that the EHHa will give you more probably with the LCD-2 than the CTh, but have you tried the RCA clear top 6CG7 in the CTh and replaced R18 with jumpers to have lowest possible output impedace on the amp?
  
  Tigz, I only had a short brief listen to the LCD-2 with the Liquid Gold a few weeks back. In a week or two i should have some more head time with this combo and i will be able to tell you howthe new Cavalli Solid State amp will sound. Current indications are very very positive indeed.


----------



## BrainFood

Quote: 





tigzstudio said:


> I am going to be buying more SS or hybrid amps to try to find something that can compete with the Stacker II+LCD-2, so far nada.  Stacker II is the best I have ever heard, I really cant find any faults.  Most of all I am just curious if any SS offering out there can compete with the SII+LCD2.  Next on my List to try and compare will probably be a Violetric v181 or a Apex Peak. Of course any Cavalli amp that comes out in the future I will be trying out as well.


 

 Your findings are valued.


----------



## gogogasgas

Quote:


dallan said:


> Yep, My Violectric that I bought specially for the LCD-2 is sitting here waiting for them to arrive whenever my number comes up.  Luckily I did hear them on one before i ordered it, drove them perfectly but i have to admit i am normally not a solid state guy so different sound than i am used to, very fast.


 
*Great to know. Hope you can share further findings on the Violectric with the forum when you get your LCD-2s.*


----------



## Duckman

Thanks Sachu. I am no DIYer, but will ask a friend about the mod.
   
  It is true what people say about the LCD-2 becoming addictive. The sound is very visceral, and completely different in presentation to the smooth and beautifully integrated O2Mk1.
   
  Switching back to the O2 now, there seems to be a high-frequency sheen/edge to everything that I never noticed before. The O2/Exstata setup used to sound dark. Compared to the LCD-2, it is bright. But the LCD-2 sounds so natural in the mids and highs. It's an aural paradox!
   
  Looking forward to unravelling it further.
   
  Quote:


sachu said:


> I won't hide the fact that the EHHa will give you more probably with the LCD-2 than the CTh, but have you tried the RCA clear top 6CG7 in the CTh and replaced R18 with jumpers to have lowest possible output impedace on the amp?
> 
> Tigz, I only had a short brief listen to the LCD-2 with the Liquid Gold a few weeks back. In a week or two i should have some more head time with this combo and i will be able to tell you howthe new Cavalli Solid State amp will sound. Current indications are very very positive indeed.


----------



## sachu

yeah..good call.
   
  Ethan's been very quiet for a while now..hope this is a sign that he is liking the Stacker 2 and is busy listneing rather than being bothered by posting on the forum.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





headphoneaddict said:


> My LCD-2 sound less fatiguing with my EF5 amp than my SAC KH1000 amp. I'm trying to stretch out my headband slowly over time.


 

 An amp doesn't have to be underpowered to sound fatiguing with the wrong cans.  Synergy, synergy, synergy.


----------



## Currawong

Just thought I'd throw in that I have no complaints about my Phoenix/LCD-2 pairing.  I have, however, tweaked my system to be a little more lively, which works well with all my headphones. I've set the bias in the Phoenix to 14V, which is the lowest I want to go as lower makes the Magnums fatiguing and isn't going to benefit the HD-800s if I decide to compare them.
   
  Just for fun, I plugged the LCD-2s into the Sparrow, and the result is quite good, all things considering.  The music comes as a wall of sound, and there isn't as much genuine punch in the bass and things get congested somewhat when the music gets busy, but it doesn't distort and is punchy enough.  If the LCD-2 weren't so damn big I'd have a good transportable rig with the combo.


----------



## volume

What about the bass on the LCD2,could it replace headphones like the RS1i's for rock.


----------



## TigzStudio

Nice man, I am finding 13.24volts to be the absolute best with my Roc and LCD-2's....so you aren't far off from me.....and I tested a ton of different voltages.  
  
  Quote: 





currawong said:


> Just thought I'd throw in that I have no complaints about my Phoenix/LCD-2 pairing.  I have, however, tweaked my system to be a little more lively, which works well with all my headphones. I've set the bias in the Phoenix to 14V, which is the lowest I want to go as lower makes the Magnums fatiguing and isn't going to benefit the HD-800s if I decide to compare them.
> 
> Just for fun, I plugged the LCD-2s into the Sparrow, and the result is quite good, all things considering.  The music comes as a wall of sound, and there isn't as much genuine punch in the bass and things get congested somewhat when the music gets busy, but it doesn't distort and is punchy enough.  If the LCD-2 weren't so damn big I'd have a good transportable rig with the combo.


----------



## Cya|\|

Quote: 





currawong said:


> Just for fun, I plugged the LCD-2s into the Sparrow, and the result is quite good, all things considering.  The music comes as a wall of sound, and there isn't as much genuine punch in the bass and things get congested somewhat when the music gets busy, but it doesn't distort and is punchy enough.  If the LCD-2 weren't so damn big I'd have a good transportable rig with the combo.


 

 Great, that's the amp i'll be using them with. Am working hard to buy the lcd 2, and really can't afford a very expensive dac+amp.


----------



## Currawong

Quote: 





cya|\| said:


> Great, that's the amp i'll be using them with. Am working hard to buy the lcd 2, and really can't afford a very expensive dac+amp.


 

 That can be taken care of down the track.


----------



## SP Wild

I don't find that the LCD2s are that hard to drive - any solid state amp that can drive the HD650/HD600/K701 will have sufficient output to drive the LCD2 to very acceptable levels.  The only real variable is trying to synergise the finer points to suit your personal preferences.  Two out of my five amps make the LCD2 sound amazing.  Both my full tube amps do no justice to the LCD2 whatsoever.


----------



## TigzStudio

Quote: 





sp wild said:


> I don't find that the LCD2s are that hard to drive - any solid state amp that can drive the HD650/HD600/K701 will have sufficient output to drive the LCD2 to very acceptable levels.  The only real variable is trying to synergise the finer points to suit your personal preferences.  Two out of my five amps make the LCD2 sound amazing.  Both my full tube amps do no justice to the LCD2 whatsoever.


 

 Which tube amps are they?  Curious on the specs and ratings.


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





tigzstudio said:


> Which tube amps are they?  Curious on the specs and ratings.


 

 Cayin HA-1A, and MingDa MC84 - both are OT designs, both are able to drive speakers, the Cayin 2 watts into 8ohm and the MD 5 watts into 8ohms.  There is more than sufficient power and current drive to power the 50ohm LCD2s.  Both amps were my chosen amps for HD650 and K701 - but with the LCD2s - it relegated them into a mid-tier can with a massive soundstage - but mid-tier in terms of speed, slows and bottleneck the LCD-2, frequency extremes are significantly let down.


----------



## gogogasgas

One for the techs out there...
  From memory, the LCD-2s are 91db efficient. If this was a set of normal speakers, that figure would be a good thing (95db would suit my tastes better, however) Anyway, is 91db 'good' for a set of headphones? In comparison, how efficient are the HD800s? Does the efficiency of the headphone effect the amp/phone relationship in the same way as the amp/speaker relationship? If the headphones are too efficient, does the amp have a harder time keeping a 'grip' on them?
   
  Supposing that 91db is efficient for a headphone, then the lower 'rated' output of some amps shouldn't be a big issue as long as they have fulsome current on tap, yes?


----------



## SoupRKnowva

Quote: 





tigzstudio said:


> Nice man, I am finding 13.24volts to be the absolute best with my Roc and LCD-2's....so you aren't far off from me.....and I tested a ton of different voltages.


 

 i saw in one of the Roc threads when people were starting to talk about adjusting the bias voltage...but what is that actually changing? is that changing how far into class a the amp is biased?


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





gogogasgas said:


> One for the techs out there...
> From memory, the LCD-2s are 91db efficient. If this was a set of normal speakers, that figure would be a good thing (95db would suit my tastes better, however) Anyway, is 91db 'good' for a set of headphones? In comparison, how efficient are the HD800s? Does the efficiency of the headphone effect the amp/phone relationship in the same way as the amp/speaker relationship? If the headphones are too efficient, does the amp have a harder time keeping a 'grip' on them?
> 
> Supposing that 91db is efficient for a headphone, then the lower 'rated' output of some amps shouldn't be a big issue as long as they have fulsome current on tap, yes?


 

 With all my amps, the LCD2 have the same overall sensitivity as the HD650 - similar degrees on the volume knob induces similar volume levels on both cans in all my amps.


----------



## Seamaster

Quote: 





sp wild said:


> With all my amps, the LCD2 have the same overall sensitivity as the HD650 - similar degrees on the volume knob induces similar volume levels on both cans in all my amps.


 
  Agree.
   
   
  Take look on T1's spec, 600om. " they are efficient" quoted by many. In the reality, they are pretty hard to drive.


----------



## SoupRKnowva

seamaster said:


> Agree.
> 
> 
> Take look on T1's spec, 600om. " they are efficient" quoted by many. In the reality, they are pretty hard to drive.







 The same spot on the volume might be being used for both the hd650's and the LCD-2, which represents the amount of voltage being supplied to the driver, but the LCD-2 is still drawing 6 times more current than the HD650's, which is 6 times the power


----------



## SP Wild

Wow! I didn't know that.
   
  Kinda makes sense - because V=IR and increasing volumes is simple increasing amplitude - which is voltage in AC.
   
  Still - how is it worked out that at the same dial position, the exact same voltage is being applied to 2 different cans - wont the varying the resistance affect voltage and current at a given level?


----------



## SoupRKnowva

For simplicities sake I kept all that out lol yes the amount of voltage dropped across the headphone would change based on the output impedance of the amp and the impedance of the phone, but if you're using say a discrete solid state amp with output impedance below 1 ohm it's not going to vary much if at all. 



 Like I said I was just trying to keep things simple, and for approximations sake, a spot on the dial is for a given voltage output 

 Edit: I'm no EE though, but I do having a passing knowledge in electronics. If someone who knows more than I sees something wrong in what I wrote, please correct me


----------



## Skylab

A few people are mixing a few things up here.

 Most headphones define their "efficiency" (rightly) as the decibel level that can be achieved with a certain output which is defines in watts, or actually usually milliwatts, as we are talking about headphones. For example, the Beyer T1 has a specified sensitivity of 102dB at 1mW of power output. 

 Now, what determines how much power the amp can output is it's ability to deliver a certain amount of voltage AND current into the headphone. W = V * A - one watt (W) is the rate at which work is done when one ampere (A) of current flows through an electrical potential difference of one volt (V).

 So if (and I am not sure its the case) the LCD-2's sensitivity is 91dB at 1mW, then the T1 would be 11dB more efficient if they were the same impedance. But of course they are not, and so what ultimately determines where the volume control will be set, as Soup pointed out, is how much power a given amp can deliver as different impedances. If an amp will deliver the same output power in milliwatts at every impedance, then the T1 will require less of a turn of the volume control than the LCD-2 will. But most amps deliver different output power into 600 ohms than into 60. 

 So unless you know a LOT about the amp in question, it's not simple to say headphone A will need this much volume and headphone B will need that much.


----------



## SoupRKnowva

Your mostly right skylab, since sensitivity is defined as dB/mW and not dB/mV, which I think they should be, the impadance is already taken care of, because amplifiers don't output a certain amount of power for each notch of a volume knob, they output voltage, so current and therefor power are derived values. Because efficiency is defined in this way, having to turn the dial further does not mean necessarily mean that a phone is less efficient. It just means that it requires more voltage.

 But i think at this point were pretty far off topic lol


----------



## Solude

Lets use some real world, not spec sheet results shall we....
   
  LCD-2
  90dB @ 119mV, 2.43mA, 49ohm, *.29mW*
   
  Senn 800
  90dB @ 248mV, .69mA, 360ohm, *.17mW*
   
  Technically the LCD-2 will use nearly 2x the power that a Senn 800 does dB for dB but neither is terribly power hungry for a home amp.


----------



## Skylab

Back on topic - and by way of segue - one amp that certainly has all the power you could ever need for the LCD-2, and still my favorite by far with them, is the Leben CS300X. Every time I go back to this combination I am reminded of justbhow much better it is than other combos. I can enjoy the LCD-2 with other amps, but with the Leben, there is some very serious synergy. The pair has to be an all-time top-tier combo.


----------



## DeadEars

The other critical issue IMHO is the power transfer at different frequencies.  Very few amps stay totally flat with inductive loads across the frequency spectrum.  The worst offenders are SE (single-ended) which can deliver a lot more oomph at some frequencies than others, usually getting flabby in the bass. On paper, their frequency spectrum looks great, but the results when listening reveal important frequency response interactions with different cans.  Or another example, 'stats where the impedence decreases with frequency, the power delivery can be quite different at high frequencies than at low frequencies.  I'm not talking just the ability to deliver frequencies, but the ability to deliver them with equal emphasis. 
   
  I guess this is one reason why bench testing by reading specs can be so misleading about the actual sound.  When the amp has to really slog into its power supply to deliver the goods, that's when you discover the real players versus the also-rans.  My old electronics teacher used to explain that an amplifier was just a way to modulate the power supply, so the design of the power supply is at least as important as the amp topology, and choice of active devices.
   
  Back on Topic:
  Anyway, thanks to everyone who has contributed to this topic!  I'm on the list for the LCD-2's also, so I'm interested in hearing owners who can share their amp/can experiences. 
   
  Between now and when my name is called, I'm trying to decide whether the LCD-2's are just FOTM, or whether there's a better choice.  Also whether my current amp will be a good fit.  For us tube guys, putting transformers in the delivery chain can improve the linearity of the power delivery, so I'm modestly optimistic that the Audez'e will work with my amp.  If not, all these experiences are really relevant for thinking about the ideal HPA topology for the Audez'e LCD-2's. 
   
  At the moment, I'm auditioning stuff.  I'm fairly happy with a pair of loaner T1's using my own Mapletree Audio Ear+ HD Super, with the high-output impedence jack. Trying to decide whether to keep the T1's or wait for the Audez'e.  It's a lot of money, but at least I can re-sell if it doesn't work out.  Fortunately, the output of my MAD amp is pretty robust into the low impedence jack, so it won't be a power issue, but may very well be a power transfer/delivery issue.  Glad to hear at least one person say they liked some things about the earlier MAD Ear+ HD amp with the LCD-2's.


----------



## Solude

I try to always have at least one other "something" to compare to my new "something".  Otherwise I'm comparing whats in hand with memory.  In my case the LCD-2 will be going head to head with the Senn 800, HE-5LE and the O2.  Be no hiding for the cans that can't hang with the others   And just to be sure amps aren't an issue I have the Meier Concerto and Nugget B22.  Man my desk is going to be an eye sore


----------



## Duckman

So far (and from memory) it betters the MSPro I used to have - which had some mid-bass bloat and vocal recession.  The bass is big but far better defined and controlled with the LCD-2. Guitars sound awesome. James Hetfield's voice (in Enter Sandman) jumps out at you with a lifelike clarity and realism that reminded me (and perhaps betters)  the SR200/HP1000 I used to own. Then there is the soundstage which rivals the HD800.
   
  BUT it takes a bit of getting used to and synergistic amping. When I first heard the LCD-2 I was dissapointed. Now I can't stop listening and this is through a cheap DIY amp.
  Quote: 





volume said:


> What about the bass on the LCD2,could it replace headphones like the RS1i's for rock.


----------



## TigzStudio

Quote:  





> Man my desk is going to be an eye sore


 

 You mean it will be eye candy   Looking forward to your comparisons.


----------



## dallan

Quote: 





sp wild said:


> Both my full tube amps do no justice to the LCD2 whatsoever.


 

 How does your xcan v3 and xpsu sound with them.  I have the same combo, the xcan is a hybrid.  I thought it sounded warm and nice but not as fast as the V200 and the midrange didn't seem as pure, maybe the xcan focused on the bass and treble ends more or something.  Problem was that I wasn't really doing a full listen with it and it was a while back.  So what are your feeling with that combo?


----------



## gogogasgas

Quote:


solude said:


> Lets use some real world, not spec sheet results shall we....
> LCD-2
> 90dB @ 119mV, 2.43mA, 49ohm, *.29mW*
> Senn 800
> ...


 
   
Thanks, Solude. Your specs could go part of the way to explain the differences Headfiers are experiencing with the LCD-2s. Talking of specs, I know that Class 'A' amps usually have a sound output that belies their (often) modest specs, much like the 'big' sound you get from from a 5+5 Watt tube amp. As you can guess, I'm thinking of the Class A *Luxman P-1u*. What's you take on this?

 Quote:


skylab said:


> Back on topic - and by way of segue - one amp that certainly has all the power you could ever need for the LCD-2, and still my favorite by far with them, is the Leben CS300X. Every time I go back to this combination I am reminded of justbhow much better it is than other combos. I can enjoy the LCD-2 with other amps, but with the Leben, there is some very serious synergy. The pair has to be an all-time top-tier combo.


 
   
The *Leben CS300X* does come up a lot! It's a tempting option, especially when you consider you also have a good little amp for 'normal' speakers as part the deal. And, the Leben designer was a long-time employee at *Luxman*. However, I wonder if the Leben suffers in some way from valve amp distortion and flabby bass? If so, that would put me off. How does it perform with fast and/or bass heavy rock and electronic music, for example? Your thoughts, SKYLAB?
We have come such a long way with solid state (speed, lack of distortion, quietness and tight, extended bass) that the Leben would have to be one hell of an amp to sway me away from considering a *Luxman P-1u* or *Violectric* as my top (off-the-rack) amp choices for the LCD-2s.
   
  Quote:


deadears said:


> The other critical issue IMHO is the power transfer at different frequencies.  Very few amps stay totally flat with inductive loads across the frequency spectrum. (edit)
> 
> I guess this is one reason why bench testing by reading specs can be so misleading about the actual sound.  When the amp has to really slog into its power supply to deliver the goods, that's when you discover the real players versus the also-rans. (edit)
> 
> For us tube guys, putting transformers in the delivery chain can improve the linearity of the power delivery, so I'm modestly optimistic that the Audez'e will work with my amp.  (edit)


 
   
Power transfer at different frequencies is a real problem. How do we know which amps will perform across the frequency spectrum? It's a crap shoot.
The power supply issue is what draws me to the Luxman. The company started out building transformers (a big part of the power supply pie) and the company's amplifiers had (have) plenty of grunt.
As far as putting transformers in the audio signal path (which I think you are talking about), I thought that was a bit of no-no these days. For example, a transformer used in the signal path to amplify the output of a moving coil cartridge to get it to the level accepted by a moving magnet phono input will lead to veiling, limiting of dynamics and other colourations. I would think that the use of a transformer in the signal path of a headphone amp should also be avoided for the same reasons.


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





dallan said:


> How does your xcan v3 and xpsu sound with them.  I have the same combo, the xcan is a hybrid.  I thought it sounded warm and nice but not as fast as the V200 and the midrange didn't seem as pure, maybe the xcan focused on the bass and treble ends more or something.  Problem was that I wasn't really doing a full listen with it and it was a while back.  So what are your feeling with that combo?


 

 The XcanV3 is a forward of neutral amp with less treble and bass extension than pure SS and with gently softened transients - midrange is nice, thanks to tubes.  I was about to sell it - never used it for years - but with the LCD2 it redeemed itself.  Instead of eliminating them, they now deserve the Pink Floyd mods.  With the BCL the LCD2 is eerily on the verge of reality sounding on a pristine recording - most of my recordings aren't so pristine and this combo hides nothing...this is where the Xcans fall in line with its tube magic and solid state grip.


----------



## dallan

Maybe I shouldn't have gotten the V200 after all then........  But glad to hear it works, i rarely use the xcan/xpsu v3 anymore, maybe it will get some more use.


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





dallan said:


> Maybe I shouldn't have gotten the V200 after all then........  But glad to hear it works, i rarely use the xcan/xpsu v3 anymore, maybe it will get some more use.


 

 No! I looked into all the amps before getting the LCD2s and the V200 was high on my radar if the BCL didn't drive them enough.  Its good to hear the LCD2 with pure SS and a pristine recording - and it's also good to introduce some euphonics into the deadly accurate LCD2s with poorer recordings - which while still good with LCD2 and SS, can be more enjoyable with the errors smoothed over.
   
  The LCD2 softened by the Xcan is still by far tighter than the HD650/K701 driven to their maximum driver agility threshold.  I wasn't expecting this.


----------



## tunarat

Quote: 





sp wild said:


> Cayin HA-1A, and MingDa MC84 - both are OT designs, both are able to drive speakers, the Cayin 2 watts into 8ohm and the MD 5 watts into 8ohms.  There is more than sufficient power and current drive to power the 50ohm LCD2s.  Both amps were my chosen amps for HD650 and K701 - but with the LCD2s - it relegated them into a mid-tier can with a massive soundstage - but mid-tier in terms of speed, slows and bottleneck the LCD-2, frequency extremes are significantly let down.


 

 What tubes are you using in the Ming Da?


----------



## gogogasgas

Quote:


dallan said:


> Maybe I shouldn't have gotten the V200 after all then........  But glad to hear it works, i rarely use the xcan/xpsu v3 anymore, maybe it will get some more use.


 

 I don't think you will be disappointed. Looking forward to hearing your opinion on the LCD-2/V200 combo!


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





tunarat said:


> What tubes are you using in the Ming Da?


 

 Yeah, I need to roll some tubes with MingDa I believe - the stock tubes I think are the cause of a gradual channel imbalance drift.  I wasn't under the impression that tube rolling can improve pratt significantly - tonal balance, smoothness and refinement maybe, but I've yet to hear of someone tube rolling and reporting dramatic changes in pratt - which would be needed in order for the LCD2s to come good with either MD or Cayin amp...I never had this problem with mid-tier cans, both were brilliant.


----------



## dallan

Cool, now if that list would just move a bit faster.........


----------



## Solude

Quote: 





gogogasgas said:


> Quote:
> 
> Thanks, Solude. Your specs could go part of the way to explain the differences Headfiers are experiencing with the LCD-2s. Talking of specs, I know that Class 'A' amps usually have a sound output that belies their (often) modest specs, much like the 'big' sound you get from from a 5+5 Watt tube amp. As you can guess, I'm thinking of the Class A *Luxman P-1u*. What's you take on this?


 
   
 I don't have my LCD-2 yet and I've never heard the P-1u so sound wise... no idea.  Spec wise the P-1u is voltage limited with pretty much endless current on tap so power to the LCD-2 won't be an issue.  Synergy though, no idea.  Here is a decent primer on amp tech http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_amplifier


----------



## gogogasgas

Thanks, Solude.
  Onto the *Violectric V200* again, this *link* has a rather interested review that clearly outlines the benefits of having a amp with both a strong availability of current AND voltage. Solid state, and off the shelf (and at the price), it looks like a no brainer. Can't wait for the Headfiers to chime in with their reports on the LCD-2/V200 combo! As for the *Leben*, that CS-300X(s) looks like it could top the valve based, off the shelf options list (for me, at least)- and it can be used as a sweet sounding amp for speakers to-boot.


----------



## Currawong

Quote: 





deadears said:


> The other critical issue IMHO is the power transfer at different frequencies.  Very few amps stay totally flat with inductive loads across the frequency spectrum.  The worst offenders are SE (single-ended) which can deliver a lot more oomph at some frequencies than others, usually getting flabby in the bass. On paper, their frequency spectrum looks great, but the results when listening reveal important frequency response interactions with different cans.  Or another example, 'stats where the impedence decreases with frequency, the power delivery can be quite different at high frequencies than at low frequencies.  I'm not talking just the ability to deliver frequencies, but the ability to deliver them with equal emphasis.
> 
> I guess this is one reason why bench testing by reading specs can be so misleading about the actual sound.  When the amp has to really slog into its power supply to deliver the goods, that's when you discover the real players versus the also-rans.  My old electronics teacher used to explain that an amplifier was just a way to modulate the power supply, so the design of the power supply is at least as important as the amp topology, and choice of active devices.
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks for this post.  This kind of thing is very helpful.  
   
  I understand about FOTM.  Did you see the measurements of them made at Canjam?  At the very least, what my ears are telling me mates up with the measurements.  The T1s are still FOTM so someone will take them.  From my limited understanding, a good transformer-coupled amp might indeed be the go.  I'm going to try my Parasound Zamp speaker amp with them just to see how things sound as well.


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





gogogasgas said:


> The *Leben CS300X* does come up a lot! It's a tempting option, especially when you consider you also have a good little amp for 'normal' speakers as part the deal. And, the Leben designer was a long-time employee at *Luxman*. However, I wonder if the Leben suffers in some way from valve amp distortion and flabby bass? If so, that would put me off. How does it perform with fast and/or bass heavy rock and electronic music, for example? Your thoughts, SKYLAB?


 

 This is what separates the Leben from many other tube amps.  It does not have any of the stereotypical tube amp colorations.  I mark this up to the very expensive custom-made transformers, and the fact that we are talking about a push-pull pentode, transformer-coupled design, not some OTL triode amp. 
   
  But don't take my word for it - there are a lot of other folks who feel the same about the Leben.  The nice thing is, at its price, it will never be a FOTM.  And it's not like its new - its been around for more than a year at least.


----------



## oqvist

Don´t agree. the Leben is the FOTM in it´s price range currently. Schiit Asgaard is in the budget range... In between I don´t sense something real except perhaps WA6?
  There was litterary no talk about the Leben until you got yours from what I can remember. Now it pulls a lot of magic tricks.
   
  I saw a demo unit on sale once when looking for the head one. Kind of wish I jumped on it because due to it´s increased status I would probably be able to get the money back if I didn´t enjoy it enough.
  Importing and custom fees kind of kills that deal entirely though.
   
  Anyway since I can´t get the specs out of my GHP I just ordered a Violectric V200 to try out. Just to confirm if nothing else that both my GHP and Head One have sufficient power for it.
  Not really expecting much though.


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





oqvist said:


> Don´t agree. the Leben is the FOTM in it´s price range currently. Schiit Asgaard is in the budget range... In between I don´t sense something real except perhaps WA6?
> There was litterary no talk about the Leben until you got yours from what I can remember. Now it pulls a lot of magic tricks.
> 
> I saw a demo unit on sale once when looking for the head one. Kind of wish I jumped on it because due to it´s increased status I would probably be able to get the money back if I didn´t enjoy it enough.
> Importing and custom fees kind of kills that deal entirely though.


 

 It's not at all true there was no talk about it before I got mine.  There was a thread for it here on HF, and it had received numerous positive reviews in the mainstream audio press.  Remember, to most of the world, this is a speaker amp, not a headphone amp 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Not only that, but I can;t see how an amp that only like 10 people own can be a FOTM.  Seriously.  But whatever.  It's a really nice piece of kit, but given that it's $3,500 in the USA, it's not likely to ever be much more than a passing curiosity to most.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





solude said:


> ... In my case the LCD-2 will be going head to head with the Senn 800, HE-5LE and the O2.  Be no hiding for the cans that can't hang with the others   And just to be sure amps aren't an issue I have the Meier Concerto and Nugget B22.  Man my desk is going to be an eye sore


 
  Quote: 





tigzstudio said:


> You mean it will be eye candy   Looking forward to your comparisons.


 

 x2!!  I'm really looking for ward to reading your impressions!


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





deadears said:


> The other critical issue IMHO is the power transfer at different frequencies.  Very few amps stay totally flat with inductive loads across the frequency spectrum.  The worst offenders are SE (single-ended) which can deliver a lot more oomph at some frequencies than others, usually getting flabby in the bass. On paper, their frequency spectrum looks great, but the results when listening reveal important frequency response interactions with different cans.  Or another example, 'stats where the impedence decreases with frequency, the power delivery can be quite different at high frequencies than at low frequencies.  I'm not talking just the ability to deliver frequencies, but the ability to deliver them with equal emphasis.
> 
> ....


 

 FWIW, there is NO inductive reactance to the load from the LCD-2.  It presents a purely resistive 52 ohm load to the amp at any frequency.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





skylab said:


> It's not at all true there was no talk about it before I got mine.  There was a thread for it here on HF, and it had received numerous positive reviews in the mainstream audio press.  Remember, to most of the world, this is a speaker amp, not a headphone amp
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Sky,
  I'll be glad to vouch for your ears, man.  Send me the Leben, I'll back you up.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  All kidding aside, yes, the Leben was known 'round these parts before the LCD-2 showed up.


----------



## santacore

Quote: 





> Can't wait for the Headfiers to chime in with their reports on the LCD-2/V200 combo!


 
  I guess it's time for me to chime in further regarding the Violectric V200. I've had it now for a few weeks and have been very pleased with it's performance. This coming from someone who pretty much only likes tube gear. I've only heard a couple of solid state amps that I would ever consider owning, the original Luxman P1 being one of them. My current setup is Violectric V800 DAC > balanced to Violectric V200 amp > LCD-2's with custom cable. I've been enjoying this setup so much, that I haven't taken time to write a review. The bottom like is everything sounds fantastic. The V200 is an great match with the LCD-2's. It drives them effortlessly, has great tone, and is very musical. Honestly, there is nothings sonically about my current setup that I can complain about, which in my opinion is the highest compliment. I've never said that about any of my previous systems, which there have been many. Now, I'm sure a good tube amp with similar specs could throw a bigger sound stage, and might have a slightly richer tone. But like I said, the current sounds fantastic, and really satisfies me. What a great time in audio!!


----------



## Solude

Quote: 





santacore said:


> The bottom like is everything sounds fantastic. The V200 is an great match with the LCD-2's. It drives them effortlessly, has great tone, and is very musical.


 

   In direct comparison to...?


----------



## gogogasgas

I should add that the Leben looks like a great option at its (substantial) price point. Transformer coupled design? Yes, indeed, the sound quality would be very dependent on the quality of it's transformers. Given Luxman's history with the manufacture of transformers, and Leben's Mr. Hyodo's history with Luxman, they would be quality items. However, I wonder if there might be some roll-off at each end of the frequency response curve and slightly squashed dynamics  because of the transformer coupled design.
   
  As for the V200- thanks Santacore! Have you put them through their paces with various styles of music? Rock, techno, classical, folk? More comments please, when you get the chance.


----------



## dallan

Santicore...... you ended up getting the V800 too? Wow!


----------



## santacore

Quote: 





> In direct comparison to...?


 
  Uhh.....the other amps I currently own, and others I've previously owned. Check my profile for the current list.
   
   
   
  Quote: 





> As for the V200- thanks Santacore! Have you put them through their paces with various styles of music? Rock, techno, classical, folk? More comments please, when you get the chance.


 
   I have eclectic taste, so definitely. In the last few days I've listened to M.Ward, Bill Evans, Sade, AC/DC, The Who, Cassandra Wilson, Norah Jones, Al DiMeola, Van Morrison, Yo-Yo Ma, Stan Getz, Joni Mitchell, Herbie Hancock, and Sea Wolf, to name a few.
   
  With all genres of music the current setup sounds great. I think that one of great things with these headphones, is they really sound good playing all types of music. The Violectric amp is very much from the same camp. It doesn't discriminate, it just plays music.
   
   
   
  Quote: 





> Santicore...... you ended up getting the V800 too? Wow


 
  Yep, it only took me a few hours of auditioning, before making that call. A couple of days later the Apogee was sold. This Violectric DAC sounds great!!


----------



## Equus

Quote: 





sachu said:


> Ethan's been very quiet for a while now..hope this is a sign that he is liking the Stacker 2 and is busy listneing rather than being bothered by posting on the forum.


 

 Heh...only saw this post now.  ^_^
   
  Partially busy listening, partially just timing since I don't usually post between Friday and Tuesday.  Weekends I'm usually doing other stuff and then Mondays are a terrible day due to a weekly business meeting that I have to prepare for.
   
  Two nights ago was one of the first times I was able to listen to the rig without some kind of fan going in the room.  The respite of cooler weather is not going to last long, unfortunately.  Anyway, I was able to definitely hear the background hiss on the amp this time around, but it quickly becomes a non-issue for me once the music starts.  Actually, almost everything around me becomes a non-issue once the music starts.  Heh.  I still haven't completely wrapped my head around the imaging and soundstage for the combo, but I'm continually amazed by the details, tones, and resonance that it brings to music.  Since I'm very familiar with the sound of clarinets from my days playing in wind ensembles, I think I might see if I can't dig up some good recordings of classical clarinetists for fun.


----------



## DeadEars

Quote: 





gogogasgas said:


> Quote:
> 
> Power transfer at different frequencies is a real problem. How do we know which amps will perform across the frequency spectrum? It's a crap shoot.
> The power supply issue is what draws me to the Luxman. The company started out building transformers (a big part of the power supply pie) and the company's amplifiers had (have) plenty of grunt.
> As far as putting transformers in the audio signal path (which I think you are talking about), I thought that was a bit of no-no these days. For example, a transformer used in the signal path to amplify the output of a moving coil cartridge to get it to the level accepted by a moving magnet phono input will lead to veiling, limiting of dynamics and other colourations. I would think that the use of a transformer in the signal path of a headphone amp should also be avoided for the same reasons.


 
   
  That's the problem with the common wisdom.  It is so often generally right, but can be specifically wrong.
   
  There are transformers and then there are TRANSFORMERS.  As an example of the latter, I have a pair of Harmon-Kardon Citation-II amplifiers from 1962 that have humongous output transformers.  I've put them on my electronics bench with a signal generator and an old Tektronix scope; their square wave output at frequencies from 8cps to almost 80,000 Hz, at full rated power is extremely good.
   
  As an example of the former, unfortunately, the Hammond transformers on my MAD amp don't fare so well.  Not bad, but not in the same class.  Replacing the 'lytic output caps with Obbligato oil caps has really made it a much nicer sounding amp, but here the transformers are the limiting factor (nice topology tho)
   
  Another good set of transformers I have hope for: I've been building yet another Dynaco ST-70 kit using Kevin Carter's kit with all-transformer coupled stages (see http://www.kandkaudio.com/poweramplifier.html).  Only 15wpc, but very, very good power transfer across the audio spectrum (at least for the input board, which is all I've built so far).  Might make a very nice headphone amp.
   
  Fun stuff!


----------



## Solude

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *santacore* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> 
> Uhh.....the other amps I currently own, and others I've previously owned. Check my profile for the current list.


 
   
  Thanks for that.  I like to put comments into context of something I have heard if that makes sense.


----------



## DeadEars

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> FWIW, there is NO inductive reactance to the load from the LCD-2.  It presents a purely resistive 52 ohm load to the amp at any frequency.


 

 Yeah, ain't it grand?  I have Maggies in my studio, so I'm somewhat familiar with the characteristics of planar magnetic drivers (they love current).  But this will be my first pair of planar magnetic headphones.  I'm REALLY looking forward to it, since I truly love the sound of my bi-amped Maggies.


----------



## dallan

Quote: 





santacore said:


> Yep, it only took me a few hours of auditioning, before making that call. A couple of days later the Apogee was sold. This Violectric DAC sounds great!!


 

 Yeh, I wasn't that thrilled with that Apogee as you know.  I am set on dacs for now but if that dac is as good as the amp I am sure you are rocking.


----------



## santacore

Oh, I'm rocking, and finally happy with my rig. The DAC is as good, or better then the amp.


----------



## gogogasgas

Quote:


deadears said:


> That's the problem with the common wisdom.  It is so often generally right, but can be specifically wrong.


 
   
Ah so true, wise DeadEars! Transformers, more that meets the eyes, er, ears.


----------



## gogogasgas

Quote: 





santacore said:


> Oh, I'm rocking, and finally happy with my rig. The DAC is as good, or better then the amp.


 

Excellent, I was going to ask you how the two Violectric units sound in combination. I also see on the company's website there is an impending release of a phono stage....


----------



## gogogasgas

Quote: 





grokit said:


> Has anyone considered the Music Fidelity M1 HPA as an amp for the LCD-2? I think it is about to be released in the US.


 

*Has anyone heard, or read any reviews, on this unit yet?*


----------



## TigzStudio

Pulled the trigger on the Violectric v181 to test out with the LCD-2's I will post my impressions when it arrives (probably monday next week or tuesday)


----------



## SP Wild

I'm starting to believe that the LCD2s can use more power than the BCL gives - for the odd occasion I want to pump it to concert levels - it seems the BCL runs out of puff.  Otherwise no real complaints.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





tigzstudio said:


> Pulled the trigger on the Violectric v181 to test out with the LCD-2's I will post my impressions when it arrives (probably monday next week or tuesday)


 

 I will be interested in hearing how it does.  The V200 looks a lot better on paper for the LCD-2, as I mentioned up thread quite a ways.


----------



## TigzStudio

the v181 was mainly purchased for the merging with my current setup at a sacrifice of a little mW.  Maybe I will find a magical synergy, who knows.  I also have quite a few 4pin headphone cables already.  I don't think the v200 is so vastly superior to the v181, imo...yeah on paper it has more mW into 50 ohms...but maybe the v181 is in that magical current feeding zone that the LCD-2 likes   The LCD-2s have to reach a point where their stomach is full....I am also not worried about the damping factor being lower.  In the case of headphones I feel it doesn't matter as much as it does for speakers....even still, 250 damping factor is plenty.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





tigzstudio said:


> the v181 was mainly purchased for the merging with my current setup at a sacrifice of a little mW.  Maybe I will find a magical synergy, who knows.  I also have quite a few 4pin headphone cables already.  I don't think the v200 is so vastly superior to the v181, imo...yeah on paper it has more mW into 50 ohms...but maybe the v181 is in that magical current feeding zone that the LCD-2 likes   The LCD-2s have to reach a point where their stomach is full....I am also not worried about the damping factor being lower.  In the case of headphones I feel it doesn't matter as much as it does for speakers....even still, 250 damping factor is plenty.


 

 Electrical damping can be important in conventional dynamic cans, but shouldn't be important in planar magnetics.


----------



## tunarat

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> I will be interested in hearing how it does.  The V200 looks a lot better on paper for the LCD-2, as I mentioned up thread quite a ways.


 

 Doesn't the V100 look pretty close to the V200 on paper for the LCD2's? Do you think the V200 is worth the difference? $700 vs $915


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





tunarat said:


> Â
> 
> Doesn't the V100 look pretty close to the V200 on paper for the LCD2's? Do you think the V200 is worth the difference? $700 vs $915


 

 The V200 looks quite incredible with power output at 50ohms - its showing 2.7 watts if I'm not mistaken.  But at the prices - the likes of the Audio GD Phoenix is not far-off - and this one has a remote, dual chassis, dual mono, bridged outputs etc.  I hope we can get a direct comparison between these two amps.


----------



## SP Wild

FWIW I am very much enjoying the XcanV3 and LCD2 combo - equally as much as the BCL amp - and the price difference between these two amps is staggering.
   
  That is purely because - after thorough testing - it's the Dac that I hear, more than the amp.  Through both amps I am hearing predominantly my Bryston Dac.  When I plug-in the Dacmagic, I took a huge loss in audio quality, I wasn't expecting that result - through both amps - the Dacmagic colorations and distortion would not go away with hybrid or solid state - that dacmagic sound dominates.
   
  I'm going to have an educated guess and say that one is better if with the likes of an Asgard - for $250, mated to a hi-end dac - than a hi-end amp mated to a $250 dollar dac.  You're better of throwing all your resources in sourcing - garbage in, garbage out.  This was truly evident with the LCD2s.  With my other cans, I always thought the amp made more difference than my dacs - those cans weren't as revealing of the different sources than the LCD2s. 
   
  The differences between the Dacmagic and the Bryston were staggering - only with the LCD's I finally feel the Bryston earned it's keep - I had always labelled it exotica thinking it had appalling price to performance ratio, now I think it's worth every dollar paid.  All the high praises I have for the LCD2's just do not apply when I heard them through the Dacmagic - the LCD2s with average source sounded very unspectacular and average.  Using the Ipods LOD to the amps - made things unbearable.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

IT TURNS OUT THE AMP IS NOT THE ONLY IMPORTANT FACTOR IN DRIVING THE LCD-2 - THINK SOURCE TOO:
   
  I've complained on the forum about fatigue when listening to the LCD-2 in my bedroom rig.  Well, my Nuforce CDP-8 seems to be a much better source to use with my LCD-2 than the Apogee mini-DAC I've been using.
   
  The LCD-2 with WA6 (and several other amps) was a bit fatiguing, with piercing pianos in the lower mids and some of those frequencies resonating in my ears. Skylab had reported the WA6 to be a great match for the LCD-2, but it wasn't perfect for me.  But they are now much less fatiguing and more refined with a simple change in source, rather than having to change tubes or amp.  
   
  With the CDP-8 there is a more natural and flowing character to the music now, without some artificial sounding echoing going on in the lower mids or graininess in the highs. Since I've owned the Apogee I've found it to be slightly on the aggressive side vs other DAC's like the Stello DA100 or Digital Link III, but usually it's not a problem as long as I use the Sigma 11 PSU. In previous comparisons I've felt the Apogee to be slightly more detailed, but with slightly more grain in return. There is a reason there is a team "source first" out there, and now that I'm used to the PWD the Apogee might not be cutting it any more.  Someday I really need to try the Apogee mini-DAC feeding the ZDT and see how that goes with the LCD-2.
   
  Then I moved down to my basement rig with PWD > ZDT amp, and this rig is noticeably superior with the LCD-2 than any of the other source/amps that I've tried before. The LCD-2 now sound closer to what you guys are raving about, however I think the ZDT > LCD-2 is still darker and less transparent sounding than my WES > O2 Mk1 (PWD feeding both amps). There is a definite similarity, especially in soundstage and imaging, and I would say the LCD-2 are the closest I've heard to a dynamic or "non-stat" version of the O2 Mk1 (at least in my rigs). But the LCD-2's recessed mids and treble hide some of the details and air in comparison to the O2 Mk1.
   
  This comparison has increased my respect for the O2 Mk1, but also made me appreciate the LCD-2 more for what they _can_ do. They have nice detailed bass that isn't bloated or lacking, a warm tone with a full presence and weight to the instruments, mildly recessed mids and treble with good speed and detail, an encompassing soundstage, but still lacking a bit in sparkle and air in the highs.
   
  The HE-5 LE also scale up nicely with the PWD > ZDT, but the presentation and efficiency is definitely different between these phones.  Normal listening levels with the LCD-2 are at 10 o'clock, but at 11 o'clock with the HE-5 LE (while HE-6 needed 3-5 o'clock).  The HE-5 LE is a more forward, intimate and delicate sounding headphone than LCD-2; while the LCD-2 is a darker, warmer and more recessed sounding phone with a bigger soundstage. The HE-5 LE sound more like a faster, more detailed/unveiled version of an HD600 (while not as airy, detailed and spacious as my HE60, they are warmer with better bass impact than HE60).  Once I volume matched the HE-5 LE by turning up the volume I was quite happy with them as well.  
   
  I really liked both orthos in my listening session last night via PWD > ZDT, but the O2 Mk1 and HE60 out of the WES still beat out the orthodynamics for me.  If I didn't have the stats I'd still be very happy to play with these orthos on a regular basis, but I wouldn't want to pick just one.  I still have the excessive clamping force with my LCD-2, making the others more comfortable.
   
  So, wiith the proper source and amp the LCD-2 should make many or most people happy, but I still don't think it's a "one phone to rule them all" kind of sound. (nor is the HE-5 LE)  The wide variety of tastes in music will always result in a wide variety of preferences in headphones, and even the legendary R10 and HE90 were not perfect to me.  But switching from the Apogee mini-DAC to CDP-8 turned the LCD-2 from a decent phone to a nice phone, and switching to the PWD > ZDT amp turned them into an exceptional phone.


----------



## SP Wild

My experience mirrors your description perfectly - "Some of those frequencies *resonating* in my ears" is the exact word I wanted to use - I never heard these strange "resonances" in my dacmagic ever before - yet thats what always tells me I'm on the dacmagic - with both my preferred LCD2 amps.  With the Ipod LOD - the "resonance" was simply unbearable.
  Quote: 





headphoneaddict said:


> IT TURNS OUT THE AMP IS NOT THE ONLY IMPORTANT FACTOR IN DRIVING THE LCD-2 - THINK SOURCE TOO:
> 
> I've complained on the forum about fatigue when listening to the LCD-2 in my bedroom rig.  Well, my Nuforce CDP-8 seems to be a much better source to use with my LCD-2 than the Apogee mini-DAC I've been using.
> 
> The LCD-2 with WA6 (and several other amps) was a bit fatiguing, with piercing pianos in the lower mids and *some of those frequencies resonating in my ears*. Skylab had reported the WA6 to be a great match for the LCD-2, but it wasn't perfect for me.  But they are now much less fatiguing and more refined with a simple change in source, rather than having to change tubes or amp.


----------



## santacore

Nice to know you guys are experiencing the same thing as me. I too noticed big changes when upgrading source and cables. I actually thought the LCD-2's were a little loose in the low mid-bass area. I changed out cables and that helped, but I couldn't get over it. Finally I demoed the new Violectric V800 DAC. Boom, suddenly things sounded right. I knew my trouble stemmed from my Apogee Rosetta. It only took me a day or two to put the Apogee for sale, and to purchase the V800. I'm very happy with how my system is sounding now.


----------



## dallan

Quote: 





tunarat said:


> Â
> 
> Doesn't the V100 look pretty close to the V200 on paper for the LCD2's? Do you think the V200 is worth the difference? $700 vs $915


 

 I called the U.S. distributer and had a long talk with him about the differences.  I too strongly considered it(V100) after looking at the specs.  He said most of the original buyers of the V100 ended up upgrading to the V200 because it was so more dynamic and just plain higher end in all ways.  The reason that I didn't get the v181 also was that it is based on the V100 design.  Rumor is that there will be a balanced version of the V200 that will come out in time......
   
  Anyway two hundred dollars for a good audio step upward, or risk getting a step down that may not even work, i will spend the two hundred, less than the cost of a recable.


----------



## grokit

It would seem that the LCD-2 responds very well to impedance matching with the amps in question. When the amp has a high output impedance, the source is not as easily discernible. But when the amp has the requisite power and a lower output impedance, the source quality comes to the forefront.
  This is a great thread; when I get another LCD-2 I will be ready


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





grokit said:


> It would seem that the LCD-2 responds very well to impedance matching with the amps in question. When the amp has a high output impedance, the source is not as easily discernible. But when the amp has the requisite power and a lower output impedance, the source quality comes to the forefront.
> This is a great thread; when I get another LCD-2 I will be ready


 

 I feel really bad about how the clamping force troubled you, and this was the primary factor for you selling them.  I'm sure the LCD2s have sent manufacturers back to the drawing board and we'll see many more LCD2 inspired cans coming to market with the next generation.  Someone like Sennheisser will have the resources to work out the weight vs sound quality parody.


----------



## Currawong

I can't help wondering if I simply can't calculate an ideal bias setting for my amp for the LCD-2s.  I must investigate this better.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





sp wild said:


> I feel really bad about how the clamping force troubled you, and this was the primary factor for you selling them.  I'm sure the LCD2s have sent manufacturers back to the drawing board and we'll see many more LCD2 inspired cans coming to market with the next generation.  Someone like Sennheisser will have the resources to work out the weight vs sound quality parody.


 

 It's all good, lol 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  It was great to try them out, I felt fortunate and I may get back to them with the right amp and cabling in place sometime. The clamping was only part of it, as it was compounded by my eyeglass frames being pressed into my temples. There was also something about the highs that disagreed with me; I think that I am particularly sensitive to a frequency that the LCD-2 generates exceedingly well, and I can't be sure whether or not that was contributing to the head pain. I had a similar sensation with my HE-5 when I first had them, but I adjusted to them after a while, and now they are quite non-fatiguing.
   
  BTW, I think you may mean paradox!


----------



## Solude

Those having resonance issues, original grill or updated A grill?


----------



## TigzStudio

Quote: 





headphoneaddict said:


> I really liked both orthos in my listening session last night via PWD > ZDT, but the O2 Mk1 and HE60 out of the WES still beat out the orthodynamics for me.  If I didn't have the stats I'd still be very happy to play with these orthos on a regular basis, but I wouldn't want to pick just one.  I still have the excessive clamping force with my LCD-2, making the others more comfortable.


 

 Interesting, when I compared the LCD-2 to my friends HE60 rig I felt the LCD-2 beat them by a decent margin....at least for my listening preference. 
  
  Quote: 





sp wild said:


> I feel really bad about how the clamping force troubled you, and this was the primary factor for you selling them.  I'm sure the LCD2s have sent manufacturers back to the drawing board and we'll see many more LCD2 inspired cans coming to market with the next generation.  Someone like Sennheisser will have the resources to work out the weight vs sound quality parody.


 

 Maybe there is some variation in the headbands clamping force, I never had an issue with it.....but I do feel the LCD-2s are really heavy on my head.


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





solude said:


> Those having resonance issues, original grill or updated A grill?


 

 Updated grilles on my one.  The resonance is not a physical, air vibration resonance.  It is electronic in nature.  The LCD2's from what I can gather doesn't have a cup resonance that I can yet identify.  The D7000's, I also have a difficulty in identifying cup resonance - but I am pretty certain the resonance is in the bass frequencies - and contributes to the bass boom, which some find really pleasurable and others horrifying - dependant on HRTF.
   
  It is precisely the lack of cup resonance in the LCD2's - unlike any can I own, that electronic resonance is being magnified.  All other cans in my collection - the inherent cup resonance is greater than the electronic resonance in the source (which also seems power supple related - as demonstrated by the Dacmagics wallwart and switching with a toroid) and hence why I have never heard or identify source resonance - as they were always being masked by the greater cup resonance in other cans.
   
  Once again, I re-affirm my position in believing that the LCD2's herald a new age in audio reproduction.  IMHO.


----------



## Skylab

headphoneaddict said:


> The LCD-2 with WA6 (and several other amps) was a bit fatiguing, with piercing pianos in the lower mids and some of those frequencies resonating in my ears. Skylab had reported the WA6 to be a great match for the LCD-2, but it wasn't perfect for me.  But they are now much less fatiguing and more refined with a simple change in source, rather than having to change tubes or amp.




 The sources that I use with my WA6 are my high-end tube-hybrid Audio by VanAlstine DAC and my VPI/Benz/Eddie Current analog rig, which are outstanding as sources - so that could indeed explain my I had no issues through my WA6.


----------



## SP Wild

Hi Skylab,
   
  You have always been a source for accurate information for me, whose opinion I regard very highly.  I've been meaning to ask you of your opinions of why my mid level tube amps cannot control either my D7000s or LCD2s without slowing them down to mid-tier pratt cans.  From your experience - do high-end tube amps offer significant pratt advantages over say the MingDa or the Cayin which seem to have similar levels of pratt performance.  I have always had faith in full-tube amplification, but my recent experiences with the D7000 and now the LCD2s have my faith shaken.
   
  Cheers.
  
  Quote: 





skylab said:


>


----------



## superjohny

i 've got my lcd-2 pre-ordered and thinking to pair it with WA5


----------



## TigzStudio

Quote: 





currawong said:


> I can't help wondering if I simply can't calculate an ideal bias setting for my amp for the LCD-2s.  I must investigate this better.


 

 Don't forget to try around 13.20 - 13.40 v, I have had mine at 13.24 for days and I don't see myself ever changing it.  Sounding very nice with my LCD-2s, as natural as I have been able to make it sound.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





sp wild said:


> FWIW I am very much enjoying the XcanV3 and LCD2 combo - equally as much as the BCL amp - and the price difference between these two amps is staggering.
> 
> That is purely because - after thorough testing - it's the Dac that I hear, more than the amp.  Through both amps I am hearing predominantly my Bryston Dac.  When I plug-in the Dacmagic, I took a huge loss in audio quality, I wasn't expecting that result - through both amps - the Dacmagic colorations and distortion would not go away with hybrid or solid state - that dacmagic sound dominates.
> 
> ...


 

 Good call!


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





headphoneaddict said:


> IT TURNS OUT THE AMP IS NOT THE ONLY IMPORTANT FACTOR IN DRIVING THE LCD-2 - THINK SOURCE TOO:
> 
> I've complained on the forum about fatigue when listening to the LCD-2 in my bedroom rig.  Well, my Nuforce CDP-8 seems to be a much better source to use with my LCD-2 than the Apogee mini-DAC I've been using.
> 
> ...


 

 This was an enjoyable read.  Thanks for taking the time to post!  One comment though... If the LCD-2s are clamping your head uncomfortably, why don't you adjust them to lessen the clamping force so you can listen more comfortably?


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





sp wild said:


> I feel really bad about how the clamping force troubled you, and this was the primary factor for you selling them.  I'm sure the LCD2s have sent manufacturers back to the drawing board and we'll see many more LCD2 inspired cans coming to market with the next generation.  Someone like Sennheisser will have the resources to work out the weight vs sound quality parody.


 

 I just want to clear up some confusion here, if I can.  
   
  Part of what make the LCD-2s sound so incredible is their weight.  Mass damping.  You can't entirely get away from its benefits.  They could lower the weight, but it will affect the sound to a degree.
   
  If the clamping force bothers any of you, simply adjust your LCD-2s to a lower clamping force.  It's a pretty simple thing to do, really.


----------



## santacore

Beyond putting a stack of books between the phones, do you have any specific suggestions for reducing the clamping force? Mine can definitely use a little stretching. I've tried flexing the top band with my hands, but it doesn't seem to have any lasting effect. Suggestions would be appreciated.


----------



## Solude

Err thats going to take some explaining.  Are you saying your source/amp are generating noise?
  
  Quote: 





sp wild said:


> Updated grilles on my one.  The resonance is not a physical, air vibration resonance.  It is electronic in nature.


----------



## Nebby

Best method is the stack of books, as it's a constant yet gentle force. When bending with your hands or any other method it's easy to overdo it.
  
  Quote: 





santacore said:


> Beyond putting a stack of books between the phones, do you have any specific suggestions for reducing the clamping force? Mine can definitely use a little stretching. I've tried flexing the top band with my hands, but it doesn't seem to have any lasting effect. Suggestions would be appreciated.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





santacore said:


> Beyond putting a stack of books between the phones, do you have any specific suggestions for reducing the clamping force? Mine can definitely use a little stretching. I've tried flexing the top band with my hands, but it doesn't seem to have any lasting effect. Suggestions would be appreciated.


 

 Yup...  Standard disclaimers apply here...  Do this at your own risk...
   
  Unplug the cord from both earcups.
   
  Grasp the headband with both hands, one on either side, thumbs pointing towards one another, at the extreme ends of the band itself, not the rods that mount the earcups.  Put your thumbs near the center of the band for support and gently pull upwards on both ends to somewhat "flatten" the headband.  Be careful not to "over do" it.  Hold in that position for a few seconds.  The idea is to open up the diameter of the headphone bend.  Do it gradually, until you achieve the clamping tension you desire.  I would not recommend more than one half cm at a time in terms of increasing the headband diameter.  That technique has worked for every LCD-2 that I am aware of that it's been applied to.


----------



## Solude

Quote: 





nebby said:


> Best method is the stack of books, as it's a constant yet gentle force. When bending with your hands or any other method it's easy to overdo it.
> Â


 

 ^ This
   
  Personally I stretch new cans over my PC which is roughly 1.5" wider than my head for a few nights .  Puts nice even pressure on the band and pads all at once.  4 nights is usually enough.  As for manually bending it... risky especially for resale.  No one wants to buy the "personalized" can


----------



## grokit

The spring steel headband on the LCD-2 is very strong. I remember someone recommending that the clamping force could be reduced by bending it outwards at the two lowest points on the band, where there was already a factory bend, right where the headband meets the adjusters. I did this just a "smidge" as I wasn't sure if I would be keeping them, and it did make a difference. I would have done this to a greater extent if I had kept them. It SEEMS like this would be more reversible than reducing the spring force of the headband itself, but YMMV and please do so at your own risk!


----------



## electropop

Quote: 





sp wild said:


> Hi Skylab,
> Â
> You have always been a source for accurate information for me, whose opinion I regard very highly.  I've been meaning to ask you of your opinions of why my mid level tube amps cannot control either my D7000s or LCD2s without slowing them down to mid-tier pratt cans.  From your experience - do high-end tube amps offer significant pratt advantages over say the MingDa or the Cayin which seem to have similar levels of pratt performance.  I have always had faith in full-tube amplification, but my recent experiences with the D7000 and now the LCD2s have my faith shaken.
> Â
> ...


 
   
  Do you mean PRaT, as in pace, rhythm and timing? This is often regarded as a synergistic issue starting from the importance of the source. I've yet to experience good PRaT with the LCD-2s, but I'm positive that will change once I get my hands on some Linn source equipment and a good amp.


----------



## santacore

Thanks for the tips everyone. kwkarth, that's the technique I was using, but it didn't seem effective. Maybe I need to hold it longer or bend it further.


----------



## gknix

I have even used the box and strapped the lcd-2s across. My lcd-2s are working beautifully now. It took about 2 days to do so.


----------



## Skylab

sp wild said:


> Hi Skylab,
> Â
> You have always been a source for accurate information for me, whose opinion I regard very highly.  I've been meaning to ask you of your opinions of why my mid level tube amps cannot control either my D7000s or LCD2s without slowing them down to mid-tier pratt cans.  From your experience - do high-end tube amps offer significant pratt advantages over say the MingDa or the Cayin which seem to have similar levels of pratt performance.  I have always had faith in full-tube amplification, but my recent experiences with the D7000 and now the LCD2s have my faith shaken.
> Â
> ...







 Unfortunately I am not the right person to answer this question. I have never bought into the concept of amps being "fast" or "slow", although I realize that my opinion here is not shared by many or even most people. 

 That said, I also think that the MingDa, which I generally liked, was a bit on the syrupy side, and that might make it a poor choice synergistically with the LCD-2, indeed. I've never heard the Cayin, alas.


----------



## FauDrei

tigzstudio said:


> Currawong said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Hmm... this bias value may not work for Phoenix - Phoenix has standard bias at ±18V (as opposed to Roc's ±15V).


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> This was an enjoyable read.  Thanks for taking the time to post!  One comment though... If the LCD-2s are clamping your head uncomfortably, why don't you adjust them to lessen the clamping force so you can listen more comfortably?


 

 Stretching them over my chair's armrest hasn't done anything but flatten the ear pads and I don't want to ruin the pads.  I've broken phones before while trying to stretch out the headband, so I didn't want to risk it.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





headphoneaddict said:


> Stretching them over my chair's armrest hasn't done anything but flatten the ear pads and I don't want to ruin the pads.  I've broken phones before while trying to stretch out the headband, so I didn't want to risk it.


 

 First, I wholly agree with you that one would not want to flatten the ear pads, hence my recommendation for the correct method for adjustment of the headband.  The LCD-2 headband is solid spring steel, wider and more robust than any other headphone headband I've ever seen.  If done as I've recommended, I have no concerns for the integrity of the headband.  
  Given differing skill levels and abilities to understand my explanation, I cannot guarantee someone else won't misapply my method, but I have full confidence in my own abilities to clearly understand and properly apply my method for assured success.  
   
  What more can I say?  It's really quite a simple matter.


----------



## SoupRKnowva

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> First, I wholly agree with you that one would not want to flatten the ear pads, hence my recommendation for the correct method for adjustment of the headband.  The LCD-2 headband is solid spring steel, wider and more robust than any other headphone headband I've ever seen.  If done as I've recommended, I have no concerns for the integrity of the headband.
> Given differing skill levels and abilities to understand my explanation, I cannot guarantee someone else won't misapply my method, but I have full confidence in my own abilities to clearly understand and properly apply my method for assured success.
> Â
> What more can I say?  It's really quite a simple matter.


 

 just make everyone a youtube video demoing the correct method kevin 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 im sure you're up to it


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





solude said:


> Err thats going to take some explaining.  Are you saying your source/amp are generating noise?
> Â


 

 I don't think you'll know you're hearing these resonances (specifically I think its harmonic distortion - possibly that dreaded 2nd order type) until you hear a source that has a lot less of it.  Without my LCD2s and Bryston Dac - I would've been oblivious to these distortions, because other headphones have a greater distortion that masks it.
   
  When headphoneaddict mentioned resonances as a description, I knew we were hearing the same thing - that is the best description of these distortions.  These distortions (cup or electronic resonance) - is what always tells me I am hearing a recording - with these lowered, one starts to fall under the illusion that one is no longer hearing a recording, but the actual thing. 
   
  I now believe that tube amps sound good because of their 3rd order distortion - the "body" and "thickening" of the midrange sounds like a pleasurable and slower, less "bouncy" and very "stable" form of resonance.
   
  Using a lesser source not only introduced these distortions, but the bass became like loose farts.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *SP Wild* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Using a lesser source not only introduced these distortions, but the bass became like loose farts.


 

 Hope your ears stayed dry, lol


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





grokit said:


> Â
> 
> Hope your ears stayed dry, lol


 

 So the imagery got through...I was wanting to use the term diaharea but can't spell that properly.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





sp wild said:


> I don't think you'll know you're hearing these resonances (specifically I think its harmonic distortion - possibly that dreaded 2nd order type) until you hear a source that has a lot less of it.  Without my LCD2s and Bryston Dac - I would've been oblivious to these distortions, because other headphones have a greater distortion that masks it.
> 
> When headphoneaddict mentioned resonances as a description, I knew we were hearing the same thing - that is the best description of these distortions.  These distortions (cup or electronic resonance) - is what always tells me I am hearing a recording - with these lowered, one starts to fall under the illusion that one is no longer hearing a recording, but the actual thing.
> 
> ...


 

 Don't forget, the human hearing system produces its own harmonic distortions when one listens above 90dB.  Those distortions can become significant.


----------



## BrainFood

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> I just want to clear up some confusion here, if I can.
> Â
> Part of what make the LCD-2s sound so incredible is their weight.  Mass damping.  You can't entirely get away from its benefits.  They could lower the weight, but it will affect the sound to a degree.
> Â
> If the clamping force bothers any of you, simply adjust your LCD-2s to a lower clamping force.  It's a pretty simple thing to do, really.


 

 Unfortunately for me, their weight is a serious issue.  I have a long-term, lower-back spinal condition (a couple of dehydrated discs).  I tend to listen while sitting at at my desktop computer and have found that sometimes the weight aggravates the condition.
   
  Unless I can find an alternative way of sitting that supports the weight, I'll have to put the LCD-2's up for sale- very regrettably.
   
  Two possible solutions might be a chair that has neck/ head support or buying a laptop and relocating to the sofa.


----------



## kwkarth

Bummer!  What about listening from a slightly reclining position with head and neck support?  Would that help?


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> Bummer!  What about listening from a slightly reclining position with head and neck support?  Would that help?


 
   
  I have all kinds of back issues (neck/shoulder issues from whiplash, recent lower disk surgery, hernia, etc.), and I am pretty sure the move to the sofa would be all about that. There are exercises that can help though, without doing them just about all full-size headphones can start to feel heavy. The LCD-2 can sure make the rest feel light though!


----------



## BrainFood

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> Bummer!  What about listening from a slightly reclining position with head and neck support?  Would that help?


 
  It may be worth a try.  Thanks for the suggestion, man.
  
  Quote: 





grokit said:


> Â
> I have all kinds of back issues (neck/shoulder issues from whiplash, recent lower disk surgery, hernia, etc.), and I am pretty sure the move to the sofa would be all about that. There are exercises that can help though, without doing them just about all full-size headphones can start to feel heavy. The LCD-2 can sure make the rest feel light though!


 

 With them on, I find myself starting to slouch, as if trying to get horizontal.  Swapping over to RS2's, which weigh a flea in comparison, is often a big relief.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  I don't think exercises could make any difference in my case, but supporting my head/neck probably would.


----------



## grokit

Quote:  





> I don't think exercises could make any difference in my case


 

  Well they are not really exercises per say. If you do some gentle PT type stretching for your neck to strengthen it, there will be less weight transferred to your lower back. One of the easiest and most effective is (while standing, knees unlocked, feet forward about shoulder width apart) to turn your neck to one side so your nose is lined up with your shoulder and keeping your head level/straight as possible with the center of your body, hold that for 30 seconds; don't forget to breathe, and then do it on the other side, repeat a couple of more times. I find it helps to loosen up for about 5 seconds on each side before starting, and do the same thing at the end. Work up to a few times a day for a few days and you will feel a difference.


----------



## BrainFood

Quote: 





grokit said:


> Â
> 
> If you do some gentle PT type exercises for your neck to strengthen it, there will be less weight transferred to your lower back. One of the easiest is (while standing, knees unlocked, feet forward about shoulder width apart) to turn your neck to one side so your nose is lined up with your shoulder and keeping your head level/straight as possible with the center of your body, hold that for 30 seconds; don't forget to breathe, and then do it on the other side, repeat a couple of more times. I find it helps to loosen up for about 5 seconds on each side before starting, and do the same thing at the end. Work up to a few times a day for a few days and see if you can feel a difference.


 

 I'm not sure I should take your loosening-exercise advice, looking at your avatar 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.  No seriously, thanks for the tip. I'll give it a try


----------



## dallan

I can't even get my chin/nose all the way lined up with my shoulder, i must be in big trouble.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





dallan said:


> I can't even get my chin/nose all the way lined up with my shoulder, i must be in big trouble.


 

 Baby steps, you don't have to go any farther than is comfortable at first, or ever!


----------



## achristilaw

I selected some DVD boxed sets to simulate the same width of my head. After listening I would park them there for about the first three weeks. When they had stretched naturally, I then would flex them to the desired clamping. The strength of the spring steel will not break, but s-t-r-e-t-c-h to the desired point.
   
  Mine are quite comfortable now, my head is very large (I can't where the one-size fits all) and they can park atop for hours on end! Just a suggestion....


----------



## BrainFood

Quote: 





santacore said:


> Oh, I'm rocking, and finally happy with my rig. The DAC is as good, or better then the amp.


 
  Someone on another forum said that the V800 played in the same ballpark as the the Weiss Dac 2 (£2K), which is a very high accolade.
   
  FWIW regarding the integral DAC of the V200, Violectric say that the 24/96 option has 'separate circuitry for receiving the USB signal and DA converting', I guess implying that the 16/46 doesn't.
   
  They claim 110 dB DR / 100dB THD+N for the 24/96 and 105 dB DR / 96 dB THD+N for the 16/46, but also point out that you are unlikely to hear any difference between them on CD and MP3 material.


----------



## oqvist

Time to go back on topic?


----------



## BrainFood

Quote: 





oqvist said:


> Time to go back on topic?


 

 It's not far off.  The V200 is a contender for the Audeze


----------



## TigzStudio

I was listening to my A-gd Ref5 / Roc amp again tonight with my LCD-2's, still blows me away everytime (at my fav bias setting).  i am still waiting for tubes on my SII, but I find myself absolutely loving the Roc with the Audeze.  It was able to transport me to some live performances, and made me feel like I was with the audience.  Thumbs up!
   
  V181 incoming Monday!  It has its work cut out for it against the Roc.


----------



## Currawong

Speaking of your amp, I can't help wondering if the power output of the Roc SA doesn't have something to do with the LCD-2 specs.  I'm not sure which is more crazy, that headphone amps exist with that much power, or that a pair of headphones can take that much input.


----------



## SP Wild

I am finding that the Audeze isn't too demanding for acceptable volume levels - but they can swallow up watts.  I am playing around with the MingDa tube amp good for 2 X 5 watts into 8ohms -  and think that the amp will give up before the LCD's distort - I am simply afraid of exploring these ridiculous limits.  I can find the current limit of the Xcans and BCL without difficulty when cranking to enthusiastic limits.


----------



## Radio_head

Anyone used these with the Isabellina HPA?


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





radio_head said:


> Anyone used these with the Isabellina HPA?


 

 Yes.


----------



## Radio_head

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> Yes.


 

 Would you mind elaborating?  I'm close to pulling the trigger on the Isabellina, but debating its synergy against a concerto/stagedac combo. Thanks.


----------



## achristilaw

Quote: 





tigzstudio said:


> I was listening to my A-gd Ref5 / Roc amp again tonight with my LCD-2's, still blows me away everytime (at my fav bias setting).  i am still waiting for tubes on my SII, but I find myself absolutely loving the Roc with the Audeze.  It was able to transport me to some live performances, and made me feel like I was with the audience.  Thumbs up!
> 
> V181 incoming Monday!  It has its work cut out for it against the Roc.


 

 You get it powered right it's like  D A M N.....!!


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





radio_head said:


> Would you mind elaborating?  I'm close to pulling the trigger on the Isabellina, but debating its synergy against a concerto/stagedac combo. Thanks.


 
  The Isabellina sounds so good overall, there's not much else to say!
   
  The DAC is killer, and the head-amp seems to have enough power to make the LCD's sing, with a little headroom left over.


----------



## Currawong

I can't find any specifications for the power output of the Isabellina HPA or the ALO Amphora, which uses the same headphone amplifier.  I do remember that it's only a very basic single IC-based design, so I'd be concerned that it doesn't have enough grunt to get the best of the LCD-2s.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





currawong said:


> I can't find any specifications for the power output of the Isabellina HPA or the ALO Amphora, which uses the same headphone amplifier.  I do remember that it's only a very basic single IC-based design, so I'd be concerned that it doesn't have enough grunt to get the best of the LCD-2s.


 

 Is it the best amp I've ever heard for the LCD-2?  No.  Is it capable of making the LCD-2 shine?  Yes.


----------



## TigzStudio

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> Is it the best amp I've ever heard for the LCD-2?  No.  Is it capable of making the LCD-2 shine?  Yes.


 

 Whats the best you have heard so far with LCD-2?  Was it from CanJam perhaps?


----------



## bepson

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> The Isabellina sounds so good overall, there's not much else to say!
> Â
> The DAC is killer, and the head-amp seems to have enough power to make the LCD's sing, with a little headroom left over.


 

 I think it's worth mentioning that two weeks ago Red Wine started to implement new and improved type of batteries and the tube stage (except Isabella and DAC? which already had one) in all products.


----------



## SP Wild

These Audeze are without a doubt, current gobblers, and I think I understand why.  Its the awesome sub-bass - Just like with speakers, for a given SPL - sub-bass draws at least twice as much power as the rest of the midbass/midrange/tweeters combined.  That's why subwoofer wattage goes through the roof.  There is no shortcut in this game, the LCD's go low with surgical precision - this requires an awesome amount of current.
   
  I realised that the Xcans inherently roll-off the sub-bass and even though it's rated significantly less than my Cayin HA1A tube amp - it can go just as loud - and noticeably further than the Lehmann Black cube, which does not roll-off, but runs out of steam bringing up those 20 hz to match the rest of the spectrum.  I found this out when I was cranking up the menacing tunes of Tupac Shakur.
   
  On the issue of tubes - I understand that I have been tackling tubes the wrong way.  The LCD's are so precise that I got caught up in the precision game, and there is no way tubes in any form can match the Solid state offerings in precision.  I had to take my own advice with "musicality" and just absorbed the incredible spaciousness and imaging, with amazing voice reproduction that tubes can offer - when I did that, I re-appreciated my tube amps again (Either that or my tube amps simply have more drive to make Tupac sound more menacing
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 with all the sub-bass glory).
   
  I have completely fallen in love with the LCD2s and Cayin HA1A pairing.  Specifically the SET setting.  I had always liked the Ultralinear mode in the Cayin matched to HD650 as SET took a lot of "air" from the presentation.  Not so with LCD2s, Triode mode is simply gorgeous.  I am curios to know if anyone has paired the LCD2s with the Woo WA5 300B triode and how they found the match...my guess is they'd be a match made in heaven.
   
  But yeah - don't skimp on current, the Violetric 200 and AudioGD ROC (the monstrous SA doesn't look like class A) amps seem to have the ducks guts as well.


----------



## Equus

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> The Isabellina sounds so good overall, there's not much else to say!
> 
> The DAC is killer, and the head-amp seems to have enough power to make the LCD's sing, with a little headroom left over.


 

 I had a chance to listen to Kingstyles' previous rig at the Seattle meet for a while, and liked what I heard out of his Isabellina.  It's also Kingstyles, though, so his source material and setup is pretty clean from start to end.  I also didn't get a whole lot of time to listen to the combo.


----------



## Radio_head

Someone snapped up the Isabellina on the FS forum!  Either way its almost not even worth it to buy a used one for 1.3K and pay another thousand to upgrade it to LFP when you can get a brand new LFP for $2500.  But at that price, I may bite the violectric bullet and get a v200/v800 combo.  Just waiting for more violectric impressions with these cans.


----------



## TigzStudio

_adding this post from a different thread I made to this one instead.  Seems a more appropriate spot for it as suggested by Currawong.  By the way I will have a more in depth review on my three amps+LCD-2 later.  _
   
  "I actually notice quite a difference now after extended time with the LCD-2's and my three amps.... Stacker II, Audio-gd Roc, Violectric v181.  All of them perform well with the LCD-2.  If you put a blindfold on me and swapped my amps around I could definitely tell you exactly which one was being used in the chain.  The Stacker II is definitely still my reference amplifier, it is a musical synergistic beast.  It represents true to life accuracy but adding the magic touch of tubes. I get the feeling that maybe only the Leben will be able to match or _possibly_ beat it.  The Violectric v181 has an amazingly black background and you hear every last detail, it also gives me a hybrid/ss type amplifier feeling.  It has the dynamics of an SS mixed with some full body and natural tones.  The Roc I feel just gives it to you how it is with every last detail, if you have a crappy recording the Roc will let you know immediately....if its an excellent recording it sounds absolutely stunning.  Take note the v181 probably needs more burn in time a bit.
 

In the end I could live with any of the above amplifiers with my LCD-2's and be happy.  My LCD-2's are going nowhere!  They are staying in my headphone stable with only room enough for one.  "


----------



## oqvist

At last can activelly participate in this thread.  My Trafomatic Head One is the amp I am keeping going back to with the LCD-2. Goldpoint Headphone Pro and Violectric V200 both doesn´t have any problem at all with the LCD-2 but it just come alive that little bit more. Bigger sound, more dynamic, lifelike, fluid and just that little bit of warmth over the V200 and GHP. So the Trafomatic Head One gets my vote at the moment particularly for classical and big orchestra pieces. Can add it´s also my favourite amp for the T1 though it´s not a clear winner for my other headphones to these ears.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





oqvist said:


> At last can activelly participate in this thread.  My Trafomatic Head One is the amp I am keeping going back to with the LCD-2. Goldpoint Headphone Pro and Violectric V200 both doesn´t have any problem at all with the LCD-2 but it just come alive that little bit more. Bigger sound, more dynamic, lifelike, fluid and just that little bit of warmth over the V200 and GHP. So the Trafomatic Head One gets my vote at the moment particularly for classical and big orchestra pieces. Can add it´s also my favourite amp for the T1 though it´s not a clear winner for my other headphones to these ears.


 

 Very cool!!


----------



## TigzStudio

wierd I wonder how different the v200 sounds to the v181, because I find the v181 to be pretty warm for some reason.  It still needs burn in however.


----------



## oqvist

The V200 is definiatly not cold by any means. The differences between my amps is as I mentioned before quite subtle. To my ears all my current amps are quite neutral and closer to real life then any other amps I have tried before. Maybe my head one is ever so slightly on the warm side though I do believe it belongs to the camp of neutral tube amps and maybe the Auditor is ever so slight cold on my DAC19... Hard to say they are that close but the Head one has that bit of extra that is hard to define but quite obvious


----------



## Equus

Nice little write up on the amps, TigzStudio.  Reassuring that you continue to find the Stacker so appealing.


----------



## TigzStudio

Quote: 





equus said:


> Nice little write up on the amps, TigzStudio.  Reassuring that you continue to find the Stacker so appealing.


 

 Its frustrating, because I am trying to find an amp that can match the Stacker II (preferably in the solid state realm)....there is no way to purchase a "backup" Stacker II in case mine dies, and I wouldn't be able to repair it myself.  
   
  I will be trying the other Cavalli amps when they come out though for sure (*waits patiently*).  I am getting close to selling all my Solid States right now heh....but I am hanging on to them for cable testing and doing a review.  
   
  With the Stacker2+LCD-2 I never, ever get fatigue....where as with solid states eventually I do.  That pretty much sums it up.


----------



## sachu

aah yes...i can never get enough of the stacker love..as for solid state amps..so far the Liquid Gold (Cavalli SS amp) has been treating me very well indeed. Ethan will get to listen to it this weekend. I am still patiently waiting to for my own LCD-2..


----------



## TigzStudio

Quote: 





sachu said:


> aah yes...i can never get enough of the stacker love..as for solid state amps..so far the Liquid Gold (Cavalli SS amp) has been treating me very well indeed. Ethan will get to listen to it this weekend. I am still patiently waiting to for my own LCD-2..


 

 You haven't had the chance to hear the Liquid Gold yet with LCD-2's right?


----------



## sachu

Quote: 





tigzstudio said:


> You haven't had the chance to hear the Liquid Gold yet with LCD-2's right?


 
  Only on a passing note..sounded good. Waiting for an in home extended listen or atleast at the meet before i put down any concrete impressions down.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





oqvist said:


> At last can activelly participate in this thread.  My Trafomatic Head One is the amp I am keeping going back to with the LCD-2.


 
   
  That looks like a sweet amp.


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





tigzstudio said:


> Its frustrating, because I am trying to find an amp that can match the Stacker II (preferably in the solid state realm)....there is no way to purchase a "backup" Stacker II in case mine dies, and I wouldn't be able to repair it myself.
> 
> I will be trying the other Cavalli amps when they come out though for sure (*waits patiently*).  I am getting close to selling all my Solid States right now heh....but I am hanging on to them for cable testing and doing a review.
> 
> With the Stacker2+LCD-2 I never, ever get fatigue....where as with solid states eventually I do.  That pretty much sums it up.


 

 At least keep one high quality and high powered amp for LCD2 use.  I love the LCD2s using SET tube amplification, but I convinced that only solid state amplification can reveal the infinite technical merits of the LCD2s.  Using my BCL without a tube for referencing, it still sounds so smooth, warm and tube like, but with the lightning responses that makes a kick drum, snare, cowbell or piano sound realistic.  Tubes are good for voices, guitars, soundstage and imaging.  It'd be a shame not to have both for pure enjoyment for all occassions.


----------



## TigzStudio

The Stacker 2 does everything my v181 and Roc can do on the solid state end, its pretty nuts....+ the tubey magic
  Quote: 





sp wild said:


> At least keep one high quality and high powered amp for LCD2 use.  I love the LCD2s using SET tube amplification, but I convinced that only solid state amplification can reveal the infinite technical merits of the LCD2s.  Using my BCL without a tube for referencing, it still sounds so smooth, warm and tube like, but with the lightning responses that makes a kick drum, snare, cowbell or piano sound realistic.  Tubes are good for voices, guitars, soundstage and imaging.  It'd be a shame not to have both for pure enjoyment for all occassions.


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





tigzstudio said:


> The Stacker 2 does everything my v181 and Roc can do on the solid state end, its pretty nuts....+ the tubey magic


 

 The Stacker 2, is it a hybrid or full tube design.  Regardless, to imply that anything with a tube in its signal path does not compromise transients to the slightest is a bold claim to make...not that I don't believe you - because gee whiz, I like tubes and hope you're right.


----------



## sachu

THe Stacker 2 is indeed a hybrid design and the best one at that I have heard thus far..the Liquid Fire however might be a contender now to that title.
  I honestly love hybrids for ortho duty. Nothing else does as good for me...and so far all Cavalli AUdio hybrids have been top notch here.


----------



## Currawong

Quote: 





sp wild said:


> The Stacker 2, is it a hybrid or full tube design.  Regardless, to imply that anything with a tube in its signal path does not compromise transients to the slightest is a bold claim to make...not that I don't believe you - because goddamn, I like tubes and hope you're right.


 
   
  Nothing to do with whether an amp uses tubes or not, it depends on the design of the amp and quality of the components, whether or not that includes tubes.  It's easy to get caught in the myth that tube amps are slow, warm or only suited to certain types of headphones.  I think that came about from the cheaper and popular tube amps, which tend to be that way.


----------



## TigzStudio

[size=small]It is indeed a hybrid SS / Tube design.  I could understand where your coming from finding it hard to believe....I find it hard to believe too, but my ears tell me otherwise.  Others that own it would probably tell you the same thing, assuming the other Stackers were built pretty much identical.  To quote someone else that owns the amp, he sent me this in a PM recently.  "When you get all the bugs worked out its a special amp,  probably the best ever made for headphones."  And he is a well known respected head-fier as well.  I honestly try to resist talking about the Stacker II because it is not available commercially, and it feels D-baggish of me to talk about it....but it is my main reference rig that I compare all else to....so it will inevitably come up in my posts from time to time.  But I will definitely try out various amps to see if they can match it and let people know.  [/size]


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





currawong said:


> Nothing to do with whether an amp uses tubes or not, it depends on the design of the amp and quality of the components, whether or not that includes tubes.  It's easy to get caught in the myth that tube amps are slow, warm or only suited to certain types of headphones.  I think that came about from the cheaper and popular tube amps, which tend to be that way.


 

 Well, thats great news for me...I am keen on that Woo WA5 or WA22 and, gee whiz - it ain't cheap.


----------



## n3rdling

Tubes glow so "they're warm"
   
  Silver looks brighter than copper so silver wire "is bright"
   
  etc, etc.  I think what you said, Currawong, has a lot to do with it too though.


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





n3rdling said:


> Tubes glow so "they're warm"
> 
> Silver looks brighter than copper so silver wire "is bright"
> 
> etc, etc.  I think what you said, Currawong, has a lot to do with it too though.


 
   
  Tubes have more to do with "body" than warmth - particularly in the midrange.  Something about tubes that makes female voices so nice and intimate - it would be incredible to have the tube thing whilst maintaining solid state pratt - I would pay big bucks for such a product.  With the LCD2s I've always liked the entry level Xcanv3 for this reason alone, though the xcan still isn't quite as quick as pure ss, it's much quicker than my other tubes amps for sure.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

I have been enjoying the LCD-2 for a couple of hours tonight out of my Nuforce HDP via the Macbook Pro > HDP 24/96 USB DAC.  The combo has a nice tonal balance, good ambience and air, detail, transparency, and bass impact.  Although the soundstage is a little smaller and more intimate than what I get from my WA6 or ZDT, I would not call it small either.  
   
  Plus I can now enjoy Glenn Gould Bach: Goldberg Variations without the piano notes drilling into my head as badly as when using the Apogee mini-DAC as source.  Every time Mr. Gould hums or makes a vocalization I keep pulling the phones off my head to see if someone just walked into the room!  It was a pleasant surprise from a budget DAC/amp.  
   
  Power/gain is good and I only have to turn the volume knob to 12 o'clock for normal listening levels with the LCD-2.  It wont replace my PWD > ZDT, but for use in my bedroom rig or laptop rig it does a fine job with these phones.


----------



## oqvist

Quote: 





currawong said:


> Nothing to do with whether an amp uses tubes or not, it depends on the design of the amp and quality of the components, whether or not that includes tubes.  It's easy to get caught in the myth that tube amps are slow, warm or only suited to certain types of headphones.  I think that came about from the cheaper and popular tube amps, which tend to be that way.


 
  That is certainly my experience.


----------



## Skylab

I've heard that the Apex Peak/Volcano, also a tube/SS hybrid, is great with the LCD-2 (something I will get to prove to myself one way or the other soon, when the review loaner heads my way).  Has anyone ever been able to compare the Stacker II to the Peak/Volcano?


----------



## sachu

Peak volcano against the stacker 2 is a tall order for the former. I was informed by someone who ownss a stacker 2 that the Peak excelled in the midrange but suffered in the extremes.
  Of course i await to have a chaance to listen to it myself.
   
  Edit:..heh seems like it was lost in translation..Ethan put his thoughts down himself..and yeah tube rolling goes a long ways sometimes.


----------



## Equus

Got to listen to the Peak/Volcano over at the Seattle meet, but from other threads I saw about the loaner there may have been a problem with the tube.  My initial impression was that the mids were a little more congested than the Stacker and there was some very strong treble, but without being bright or harsh.  Again, I think the next person with the loaner switched the tube out and got much better results though, so it'll be great to hear more feedback to the combo as time goes on.  The source for the amp at the meet was also a portable CD player, so it wasn't a great comparison.  I meant to pull my laptop and D10 to act as a DAC over to that corner, but never got to do it.


----------



## achristilaw

Quote: 





sachu said:


> Peak volcano against the stacker 2 is a tall order for the former. I was informed by someone who ownss a stacker 2 that the Peak excelled in the midrange but suffered in the extremes.
> Of course i await to have a chaance to listen to it myself.
> 
> Edit:..heh seems like it was lost in translation..Ethan put his thoughts down himself..and yeah tube rolling goes a long ways sometimes.


 

 You have bad info...the Peak/Volcano is superior to the Stacker II. I have the sources...and some 17 of the 5692's and 6SN7's and put it through the paces. It is better in every regard....... I had the "agent orange" for a bit, and it's a fine amp. Pete's latest design is better!!


----------



## TigzStudio

Well looks like Peak/Volcano is next to try for me then eh?  So I can do side by side comparison with both amps in my possession+LCD-2s.  In what way is it better than the Stacker II?  Did you listen to the Stacker II with LCD-2's while you had it? That is a tall task to be "superior in every regard"!
   
  But if it does beat it, I would love to own it.  
   
   
   
  edit:  what about compared to the Leben ?


----------



## achristilaw

Quote: 





tigzstudio said:


> Well looks like Peak/Volcano is next to try for me then eh?  So I can do side by side comparison with both amps in my possession+LCD-2s.  In what way is it better than the Stacker II?  Did you listen to the Stacker II with LCD-2's while you had it? That is a tall task to be "superior in every regard"!
> 
> But if it does beat it, I would love to own it.


 

 No, I didn't have both in a side by side....but I have the Leben, Dynahi, Dynamid and the Peak/Volcano can go toe-to-toe with those. I traded the Stacker....so I didn't feel it was the top of the heap.
   
  If have stated before that the Peak/Volcano has the clarity (most of it) of the Dynahi (along with most of the dynamic spank), with the timbrel accuracy (most of that) of the Leben. Both of those amps were superior (IMO) to the Stacker. I have one on order again! I had to interrupt to have the House painted first (before Winter).
   
  But, if I was down to only having one amp for the Audez'e, I wouldn't be slighted in the least with the Peak/Volcano. The two week exposure has left me really jonesing to have it back in my Audez'e world.
   
   Also, the power supply has a new transformer (and new board to support the new transformer) in future Volcano's. Damping couldn't cure every last bit of the external hum...so a re-do of the board.
   
  When the Peak/new Volcano is available pick one up. You have thirty days to try anything from the Toddster...you don't like it...get a refund. I don't know your sources...but you probably will like it!


----------



## achristilaw

Quote: 





achristilaw said:


> No, I didn't have both in a side by side....but I have the Leben, Dynahi, Dynamid and the Peak/Volcano can go toe-to-toe with those. I traded the Stacker....so I didn't feel it was the top of the heap.
> 
> If have stated before that the Peak/Volcano has the clarity (most of it) of the Dynahi (along with most of the dynamic spank), with the timbrel accuracy (most of that) of the Leben. Both of those amps were superior (IMO) to the Stacker. I have one on order again! I had to interrupt to have the House painted first (before Winter).
> 
> ...


 


 edit: You would also need a superior signal tube for your testing...Todd is looking a various upgraded options to offer with the amp!


----------



## TigzStudio

Cool sounds like more amp testing fun for me.!  I have various tubes already coming in from ebay as well, hytron, sylvania etc etc.  
   
  Wait so did you listen to the Stacker II with the LCD-2s though?  Because that is some pretty out of this world synergy imo.


----------



## achristilaw

Quote: 





tigzstudio said:


> Cool sounds like more amp testing fun for me.!  I have various tubes already coming in from ebay as well, hytron, sylvania etc etc.
> 
> Wait so did you listen to the Stacker II with the LCD-2s though?  Because that is some pretty out of this world synergy imo.


 

 Exactly! The amp was purpose built with the Ortho in mind...it's a very fine amp. No, I never tried the Stacker with the LCD-2, just the HE-5 and 800. I currently have an EHHA...it doesn't come close either.......(colored extremes, nice clean, clear mid-band). The Stacker II is superior to the EHHA.....(IMO)!
   
   I have always had a good supply of good amps around! I have other amps that have the same out of this world synergy going on with the Audez'e. I don't really need another amp....but I'm down to one phone...I need amp options
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





!!!
   
  WHAT YOU SHOULD DO? Get in on the loaner program for the Peak/Volcano. I think the Peak/Old Volcano is still out on the rounds...or wait and get the loaner when the new Volcano has arrived!! You can take your time and experiment...all it costs is shipping to the next party!


----------



## sachu

Quote: 





achristilaw said:


> .the Peak/Volcano is superior to the Stacker II.


 

 I'll believe it when i hear it. So far all of Pete's Hybrid designs save for the Starving student weren't up to the mark for me. So claiming this one to be suddenly better sounding than the amp that has seen a myriad of others done and dusted trying to make that claim makes me laugh.


----------



## SP Wild

Ok so-far these are the amps on my radar.  V200, Phoenix, WA22, WA5 and this Peak/Volcano amp has me curious.  Are there any holes in these amps WRT LCD2s?


----------



## TigzStudio

Having a tough time finding the website for "Apex High Fi" do they have a main website?  Or is this a DIY thing?


----------



## Currawong

http://ttvj.com


----------



## achristilaw

Quote: 





sachu said:


> I'll believe it when i hear it. So far all of Pete's Hybrid designs save for the Starving student weren't up to the mark for me. So claiming this one to be suddenly better sounding than the amp that has seen a myriad of others done and dusted trying to make that claim makes me laugh.


 

 Yeah right fanboy
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. You live in a narrow world of singular designs. You haven't lived with anything else! Pete has enjoyed making affordable projects and gear for "starving students". You don't believe Mr. Pete Millet is capable of designing something other than entry level? Your not being very smart in your assertions. 
   
  Even if you "heard it" you wouldn't give it a fair shake because of your singular view point....and that is a shame Sir! Your a disciple of only one designer....till death do you part!
   
  Any designer worth a salt can make wonderful high priced gear....the challenge and satisfaction for talented designers comes from a entry level design that exceeds expectations. Mr Millet has done that and more....I have lived with two Cavalli products....and found I can live without them to this point....
   
  He designs in his spare time...he has a very important day job for Texas Instruments...and probably has forgotten more of electronics theory than you or I will ever know!
   
  Laugh away fanboy!


----------



## sachu

hahahaha meh


----------



## knopi

I had a little problem with clamp first 1-2 weeks, it wasn't pleasent but after 3 weeks it is very comfortable. Also I was not happy from the begining with LCD-2 although I felt big potencial, I don't know if it needed just more hours (burn). Now LCD-2 grow in my heart more and more. Probably the best audio purchase I have ever made. I have finally found what I am looking for a long time. I sold JH13 before I got LCD-2, LCD-2 blow away my JH13 from memory (according to me) very easily.
  As for the amp. I have positive experience with casea.eu so I will send LCD-2 to the Casea moreover they are going to release new hp/pre amp probably on autumn/winter and maker of this new amp will be modified it (if needed) for my LCD-2. It will be very interesting, at least for me


----------



## Radio_head

Quote: 





knopi said:


> I had a little problem with clamp first 1-2 weeks, it wasn't pleasent but after 3 weeks it is very comfortable. Also I was not happy from the begining with LCD-2 although I felt big potencial, I don't know if it needed just more hours (burn). Now LCD-2 grow in my heart more and more. Probably the best audio purchase I have ever made. I have finally found what I am looking for a long time. I sold JH13 before I got LCD-2, LCD-2 blow away my JH13 from memory (according to me) very easily.
> As for the amp. I have positive experience with casea.eu so I will send LCD-2 to the Casea moreover they are going to release new hp/pre amp probably on autumn/winter and maker of this new amp will be modified it (if needed) for my LCD-2. It will be very interesting, at least for me


 
  I think  before anyone takes the Casea seriously Neptius needs to stop posting.  I think Skylab requested one for review.  Until then its going to remained fixed in my mind (and that of a lot of others) as an unknown, untested amp backed by people with bad english and nonsensical rhetoric.


----------



## knopi

It is a great news from Skylab. Casea is well known in my country, I do not have any worry! It is excellent amp for dynamic headphone. But for orthos it is a little risky as many other amps as we know. I will see If it won't be perfect match I will easily change it for their dac which I know very good. And then I will want to find best amp for them, these headphone deserve it.
   
  Trust me you can be happy that his english is not much good, just ignore neptius, he do not think normally as you can see. He has never heard something from Casea from what I know and even if he did trust your ears.


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





knopi said:


> It is a great news from Skylab. Casea is well known in my country, I do not have any worry! It is excellent amp for dynamic headphone. But for orthos it is a little risky as many other amps as we know. I will see If it won't be perfect match I will easily change it for their dac which I know very good. And then I will want to find best amp for them, these headphone deserve it.
> 
> Trust me you can be happy that his english is not much good, just ignore neptius, he do not think normally as you can see. He has never heard something from Casea from what I know and even if he did trust your ears.


 
   
  I will be giving the Casea Lyra a thorough and fair evaluation, without any bias due to any one person's hyping it (one way or the other).  I will try it with the LCD-2, Beyer T1, Denon D7000, AT W1000X, JVC DX1000, and Ultrasone Edition 8, so it will get every opportunity to shine.


----------



## Currawong

The LCD-2s need a lot of current and I'd be worried that the Lyra, which is listed as having 360mW @ 100 Ohms might not have enough overhead to get great results with them.  People, including myself, seem to be getting good results with amps specced to output a couple of Watts or more.


----------



## Skylab

Probably right, Currawong.  But we shall see.


----------



## SP Wild

I've had these cans long enough to accurately define them.  These amps are ranked to my personal enjoyment with the LCD2s and nothing else.  All were sourced via the Bryston dac - which for me, along with the LCD2s, really pushed my enjoyment of audio reproduction to record new heights.  AFAIK the only true production rival to the LCD2s are the O2's - providing one has the funds for a proper amplification.  This makes the LCD2s a bargain.  Imagine Audeze were to shut up shop tommorrow and never to be heard of again - the LCD2s would command serious premiums for the limited numbers that have been produced - if that were to occur, you can bet your bottom dollar the LCD2s would be regarded with exalted company - R10, forget about it.  Think Orpheus. 
   
  1.  Lehmann BCL - underappreciated, but served me well in evaluating all my cans - no doubt there are better, but as a window - I saw everything.
  =1.  Cayin HA1A - member Ferbose had this amp drive the K1000s - at 2.2 watts it has guts.  I truly enjoyed it in SET mode - the 4 position  impedance switch makes this amp versatile - this amp cemented valve power for me and I love tubes!!!  It was even breathed in the same breath as RSA Raptor?
  =1.  XcanV3/XPSU combo - very enjoyable experience.  Combines the control of solid state with a touch of tube magic.  Slightly rolled-off in the upper treble and at the subbass - but combats this with a forward of neutral tonality which gives a refreshing change in tone for the LCD2s.
  4. MingDa MC07 - Still my favorite with the K701 without a doubt.  This thing had balls...big ones.  With the stock tubes, refinement was a problem, also it had it's own unique character, irrelevant of source - imposed its thick midrange everywhere - the LCD2s had a full bodied midrange already.
  5.  Vincent Hybrid - crap.
   
  I just wanna add that everything is connected to battery power only - I can't stand the LCD2s touching the powergrid - the high frequency nasties are terrible.
   
  Well that's it for me.  Too bad I didn't own any of the popular amps to give some useful information - all I had I bought with cash and over the counter.  Until I joined headfi and ordered the MD and paid for the LCD2s on-line.
   
  My next move is to purchase the HD800s (yes, over the counter at full retail $2000 AUD), upgrade to a highend solid state and tube amp and be happy.  Cheers.


----------



## knopi

Quote:


currawong said:


> The LCD-2s need a lot of current and I'd be worried that the Lyra, which is listed as having 360mW @ 100 Ohms might not have enough overhead to get great results with them.  People, including myself, seem to be getting good results with amps specced to output a couple of Watts or more.


 
   
   Exactly it could be a problem. That is the main reason why I want send LCD-2 to maker of this amp for possible modification for LCD-2. It is good that this option exist. 
   
  As Skylab said we shall see.


----------



## Paganini Alfredo

Am I the only one with a HeadRoom amp rig?


----------



## Seamaster

Quote: 





tigzstudio said:


> Well looks like Peak/Volcano is next to try for me then eh?  So I can do side by side comparison with both amps in my possession+LCD-2s.  In what way is it better than the Stacker II?  Did you listen to the Stacker II with LCD-2's while you had it? That is a tall task to be "superior in every regard"!
> 
> But if it does beat it, I would love to own it.
> 
> ...


 

 I know a few people do not like Peak/Volcano due to their flaw with vocal/mid. Myself, I am just OK with the amp. For LCD-2 Stacker II solid state version, sound good while sound "solid state" to me, I would not put my own money on it. But Hybrid version tonally beautiful pair with LCD-2, made my a** glued on the listening chair for a long time.


----------



## sachu

Umm Stacker 2 is not a solid state amp Griffin. Its a Hybrid design as well. And as for the hybrid amp you are referring to i believe was the Cavalli Audio Liquid Fire ( big black case).
   
  I will only say that both the stacker 2 and the LF were tops with the LCD-2 for me. The Liquid Fire was arguably better overall though, a  different sound signature, much much faster and more weight to the music as well compared to the stacker. Lots of finesse with the grunt when needed. A truly fantastic amp. 
   
  Quite rightly preferred it over the Liquid Gold solid state amp with the LCD-2. The Liquid Fire was just so well rounded, more dynamic, open sounding. And the best part is that the amp was only running JJ 6922 tubes. I just wonder how much better that amp could sound with some proper Amperex, telefunken or Mullard tubes in them..Brilliant stuff. Best amp so far i have heard with the LCD-2.


----------



## Equus

Quote: 





seamaster said:


> I know a few people do not like Peak/Volcano due to their flaw with vocal/mid. Myself, I am just OK with the amp. For LCD-2 Stacker II solid state version, sound good while sound "solid state" to me, I would not put my own money on it. But Hybrid version tonally beautiful pair with LCD-2, made my a** glued on the listening chair for a long time.


 

 Lol...yeah...at this last meet, the Stacker 2 = gigantor red case.
   
  And if you heard the Peak at the last Seattle meet, I think achristlaw mentioned a little while back that he rolled the tube and found an improvement.  Mention it as an attempt at full disclosure, since I obviously can't personally attest to it.


----------



## Seamaster

Quote: 





sachu said:


> Cavalli Audio Liquid Fire ( big black case).
> 
> The Liquid Fire was just so well rounded, more dynamic, open sounding. And the best part is that the amp was only running JJ 6922 tubes. I just wonder how much better that amp could sound with some proper Amperex, telefunken or Mullard tubes in them..Brilliant stuff. Best amp so far i have heard with the LCD-2.


 
  Only JJ 6922 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




!! Hum... It must be nice with some UK NOS tubes.



  
  Quote: 





seamaster said:


> For LCD-2 Stacker II solid state version, sound good while sound "solid state" to me


 I mean the liquid gold amp here.. I thought they are all Stackers. Clear now.


----------



## SP Wild

I edited the amp ratings a few posts back. I changed the Musical Fidelity V3 to share the podium with  BCL and Cayin.  The reason I felt that they were unrefined was that last night I had it connected to the power grid (to keep it warmed up) and forgot to remove it from the grid - and I heard all the nasties in all its glory - especially when the LCD2s are doing the monitoring.  (I think I have the worst power grid ever - in a unit sharing with many fridges and washing machines)


----------



## achristilaw

Quote: 





seamaster said:


> I know a few people do not like Peak/Volcano due to their flaw with vocal/mid. Myself, I am just OK with the amp. For LCD-2 Stacker II solid state version, sound good while sound "solid state" to me, I would not put my own money on it. But Hybrid version tonally beautiful pair with LCD-2, made my a** glued on the listening chair for a long time.


 

 If you were at the Seattle meet, the unit at that meet had a faulty signal tube...I spent two weeks with the same unit (Ken shipped it to me the day after) and it doesn't have a failing anywhere in the mid-band...O.K.? I put it through the paces with many a good signal tube...the amp is wonderful......
   
  There is no flaw in the mid!!!   O.K.?


----------



## Seamaster

Quote: 





achristilaw said:


> If you were at the Seattle meet, the unit at that meet had a faulty signal tube...I spent two weeks with the same unit (Ken shipped it to me the day after) and it doesn't have a failing anywhere in the mid-band...O.K.? I put it through the paces with many a good signal tube...the amp is wonderful......
> 
> There is no flaw in the mid!!!   O.K.?


 
  Ok, there was bad tube, it is my fault did not investigate enough. But do you talk like that all the time?


----------



## achristilaw

Quote: 





seamaster said:


> Ok, there was bad tube, it is my fault did not investigate enough. But do you talk like that all the time?


 
   
  I make a conscience effort to ONLY relay only one-on-one personal experiences with gear, and refrain from "parroting" someone elses opinion.
   
  How many people? What are the member names? And what specific flaw? See the questions that are raised where I feel there are none? Just from one innocent and ill-formed comment? Did anyone question why the mid-band had limits..or just write it off?
   
  It's here-say and cheap fodder while being somewhat irresponsible to the parties in question. That's my opinion!
   
  I'm not signaling you out Seamaster (or picking on you, really!) ...you meant it nonchalant and in passing. But, it would be a better (and far more informative forum) if everyone took it to heart. Think before you type!


----------



## BIG POPPA

Seamaster say's his opinion very truthful and no worries. Anyone argues with that it is your loss. He spends money where his mouth is, do you?


----------



## gogogasgas

Getting a little heated in this thread. Still, some very interesting comments being posted.
   
  Hybrid? Hhmm. Can be great...can be the worst of both worlds.
   
  Moving away from the mid-band glow of tubes, what happened to that feedback someone promised on the Luxman P-1u in combination with the LCD-2s? Have I missed it? The Luxman P-1u is the elephant in the room that demands to be acknowledged, for the better or for the worse....


----------



## Equus

Seamaster has some good ears on him, and if he is listening to someone's opinions it's probably because he knows them and respects their view.  That's all I'm going to say about all that.
   
  Quote: 





gogogasgas said:


> Getting a little heated in this thread. Still, some very interesting comments being posted.
> 
> Hybrid? Hhmm. Can be great...can be the worst of both worlds.
> 
> Moving away from the mid-band glow of tubes, what happened to that feedback someone promised on the Luxman P-1u in combination with the LCD-2s? Have I missed it? The Luxman P-1u is the elephant in the room that demands to be acknowledged, for the better or for the worse....


 
   
  Hopefully it's the best...if it's the worst, you got a bad design.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  Honestly haven't heard anything I like as much as hybrids so far with the LCD-2.  Solid states I've heard have been too analytical and had a tendency to be harsh.  Tubes I've heard lost some of the speed and articulation.  It's all totally depending on what you want to hear, of course, and it's not like all amps, SS or tube, are created equal.
   
  As for the P-1u, I know I posted some quick comments on it, and Seamaster and a few others over here heard the LCD-2's with them.  Not sure if you are waiting for more feedback on the combo.


----------



## Duckman

There have been various previous statements about the fact that there was a faulty tube in the Peak. I guess he just missed it. But I sympathise with the idea of not making negative statements about a product until one is sure of the facts. It can easily harm a reputation.
   
  Besides, I've a Peak on order, and pray it's as good as the reviews have said!


----------



## Headphony

Quote: 





average_joe said:


> I don't have the experience with desktop amps other than the RPX-33 and only have used it with 4 headphones, 2 IEMs and 2 full sized, so I hope you are right!  I am very happy with the T1/RPX-33 pairing and hope the LCD-2 is a good match.  But I too don't see how this pairing could be bad!


 
   
  Any impressions of the LCD2 with RPX-33 yet?


----------



## thread

Quote: 





headphony said:


> Any impressions of the LCD2 with RPX-33 yet?


 

 Eagerly awaiting my turn. Preordered late June, so I don't fully expect to be in the next batch, even. :/
   
  I will definitely post impressions when I get my listen, though.


----------



## Seamaster

Please reread post #597, I did not make affirmative and detailed judgment on the Peak/Volcano. And myself do not have habit to bring a tube tester to meet either. I just give our honest opinion base on what we hear at that time being. As I said: "it is my fault did not investigate enough." I am not trying and will never be Mr. everything sound good by default.
   
  We all know Todd is very good gentleman, and being well loved by the community. Me too likes him a lot, and I do buy gears from TTVJ. Like my HD650, HD650 cable x2, K271s, Meridian G08, and T-1 etc. I do support our sponsors. But this doesn't automatically make me to like or dislike his amp creation. There are a few big name amps / headphones out there are being reviewed as "Golden Ear" or "sound super" are really turn-down in reality. This argument could go on for ever, simply no one has same ear...


----------



## Seamaster

In order not make topic too far off the course:
   
  LCD-2s are superb headphones, the tonal signature is very spot on (at least for me, but not with stock cable). I will keep my mouth shut on ALO Audio V1 cable, but V2 prototype with 8 wire run offer very audible sonical improvement VS. stock cable even under meet condition.
   
  Luxman P-1u is not a good amp for LCD-2 for a person came from HD650, T-1, or in that nature. For people who swear by their K701, DT880, or HD800 may give a shot.


----------



## average_joe

Quote: 





headphony said:


> Any impressions of the LCD2 with RPX-33 yet?


 

 I wish, but I am still waiting.  Hopefully I am in the next batch.  I will be sure to chime in once I get them.


----------



## gogogasgas

*LUXMAN P-1u/LCD-2  feedback:*
  Quote: 





gu sensei said:


> I have the P-1 and never found it to emphasize any brightness in headphones or recordings. Usually, the opposite. I feel it is generally a good match with brighter, peaky phones. I will be able to listen to the LCD-2s with the P-1 extensively when I get back from my trip next week. I will post my impressions.


 
Gu Sensei- did you get a chance to do some in-depth listening with LCD-2s and the Luxman P-1u? Do you happen to have a link for the Japanese review of the Luxman with the HD-800s?
  


equus said:


> As for the P-1u, I know I posted some quick comments on it, and Seamaster and a few others over here heard the LCD-2's with them.  Not sure if you are waiting for more feedback on the combo.


 

Yes (see above). The reason I ask is because the Luxman in its former guise (the P-1) received stellar reviews and has a cult-ish following. An 'A' class design, with plenty of current, I would have thought the newer P-1u could be an excellent, although smoothish, match for the LCD-2s
  


seamaster said:


> Luxman P-1u is not a good amp for LCD-2 for a person came from HD650, T-1, or in that nature. For people who swear by their K701, DT880, or HD800 may give a shot.


 
Please explain, Seamaster. Too laid back? Too smooth? Bass not tight enough? Good with the HD800s? I would have thought that it would be only a so-so combo.
   
As for another A Class, solid state, off-the-shelf contender, click this for the new SUGDEN HA-4.
   
  Any word yet on the new Musical Fidelity offering?


----------



## Frank I

The Sugden looks very interesting. Anyone know the cost of this unit. Very sexy indeed.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





gogogasgas said:


> ...
> As for another A Class, solid state, off-the-shelf contender, click this for the new SUGDEN HA-4.


 

 Re the Sugden...  The text on the marketing brochure is pure drivel, and Sudgen make no mention of the capability of their product.  It is pretty though.


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> Re the Sugden...  The text on the marketing brochure is pure drivel, and Sudgen make no mention of the capability of their product.  It is pretty though.


 

 I owned a Sugden Headmaster for a while, and wasn't very impressed.


----------



## gogogasgas

frank i said:


> The Sugden looks very interesting. Anyone know the cost of this unit. Very sexy indeed.


 

The Sugden is 1,395 UK pounds. The review in July's Hi-Fi World summed it up thusly:
   
"FOR- sweet, inviting treble; expansive midrange; good bass detail."
"AGAINST- bass softness; price"
   
  I was thinking what Skylab said about the Leben valve amplifier and how it excelled at doing double-duty as a top-flight headphone amp. I recently bought an old Luxman M-02/M-05 pre/power combo. Remembering the Leben/headphone example, I plugged my trusty HD-650s into the headphone socket on the poweramp. Geez, it sounded pretty darn good. Much better than the Graham Slee 'Solo' + PSU did before it was sold. Bigger/fuller sound, more headroom, great grip, much better bass. Lotso' fun! Makes me think that a high quality, well designed integrated amplifier or pre/power combo with a decent headphone circuit could be an interesting alternate path to using a separate headphone amp.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





gogogasgas said:


> The Sugden is 1,395 UK pounds. The review in July's Hi-Fi World summed it up thusly:
> 
> "FOR- sweet, inviting treble; expansive midrange; good bass detail."
> "AGAINST- bass softness; price"
> ...


 

 Good find!


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





gogogasgas said:


> I was thinking what Skylab said about the Leben valve amplifier and how it excelled at doing double-duty as a top-flight headphone amp. I recently bought an old Luxman M-02/M-05 pre/power combo. Remembering the Leben/headphone example, I plugged my trusty HD-650s into the headphone socket on the poweramp. Geez, it sounded pretty darn good. Much better than the Graham Slee 'Solo' + PSU did before it was sold. Bigger/fuller sound, more headroom, great grip, much better bass. Lotso' fun! Makes me think that a high quality, well designed integrated amplifier or pre/power combo with a decent headphone circuit could be an interesting alternate path to using a separate headphone amp.


 

 Indeed, this can be a very good way to go.  The headphone jack on my vintage Fisher KX-100 tube integrated is also very, very good.


----------



## gogogasgas

I'm tempted to just get the LCD-2s and plug 'em straight into the Luxman pre/power combo. It might make a great solution in the short term...if not, long term!


----------



## Currawong

I did plug my LCD-2s into a Parasound Zamp and it worked quite well.  I have a speaker-to-4-pin-XLR adaptor I made for this purpose. They are rated up to 15W/133dB (!!!) so it's unlikely you'll accidentally kill them, at least not before destroying you eardrums.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





currawong said:


> I did plug my LCD-2s into a Parasound Zamp and it worked quite well.  I have a speaker-to-4-pin-XLR adaptor I made for this purpose. They are rated up to 15W/133dB (!!!) so it's unlikely you'll accidentally kill them, at least not before destroying you eardrums.


 

 When you see the red stuff dripping on to your shoulders, it's time to turn it down.


----------



## oqvist

After several days of A and B:ing my Goldpoint Headphone Pro and Trafomatic Head One has both ruled out the Auditor/Violectric V200 for the LCD-2.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





oqvist said:


> After several days of A and B:ing my Goldpoint Headphone Pro and Trafomatic Head One has both ruled out the Auditor/Violectric V200 for the LCD-2.


 

 Very interesting.  What are you hearing?  Stridency?  Over bright?


----------



## TigzStudio

Quote: 





oqvist said:


> After several days of A and B:ing my Goldpoint Headphone Pro and Trafomatic Head One has both ruled out the Auditor/Violectric V200 for the LCD-2.


 

 I assume you prefer REALLY warm music?  Or is naturalness of the vocals the main thing that wins you over with the first two?  This is quite a bold finding!


----------



## oqvist

I liked the V200 a lot actually It´s not the slightest bit strident or overly bright. Not much differ those from my tube Head One in smoothness. All these amps have quite a wavery quality to them.
   
  GHP gives me more I feel with the LCD-2. It focuses on correct tone then soundstage which is the compromise the LCD-2 does for me as well. A bit higher resolution in the mid range and slightly more natural sounding. V200 give a bit bigger soundstage which is welcome but it feels like it pulls some tricks in the mid range to get there. Sounding slightly more artifical and missing body somewhat on vocalists whereas the GHP sounds more like real life.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





oqvist said:


> I liked the V200 a lot actually It´s not the slightest bit strident or overly bright. Not much differ those from my tube Head One in smoothness. All these amps have quite a wavery quality to them.
> 
> GHP gives me more I feel with the LCD-2. It focuses on correct tone then soundstage which is the compromise the LCD-2 does for me as well. A bit higher resolution in the mid range and slightly more natural sounding. V200 give a bit bigger soundstage which is welcome but it feels like it pulls some tricks in the mid range to get there. Sounding slightly more artifical and missing body somewhat on vocalists whereas the GHP sounds more like real life.


 
  Thanks for the report.  This is very informative.


----------



## oqvist

Quote: 





tigzstudio said:


> I assume you prefer REALLY warm music?  Or is naturalness of the vocals the main thing that wins you over with the first two?  This is quite a bold finding!


 
   
  Sorry missed this. No I have never been into warmness by tradition. LCD-2 is just about the warmest headphone I have ever been able to get into. Maybe that is something new in older days...
  Voices is not the only thing it´s just one thing I have focused on. But it´s quite important to get this right because I watch a lot of movies, play games on top of my music listening. And I do listen to quite a bit of music with male and female vocalists.
  cheers


----------



## n3rdling

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> Re the Sugden...  The text on the marketing brochure is pure drivel, and Sudgen make no mention of the capability of their product.  It is pretty though.


 

 Would you say the same about the ALO cables or are they one of your approved manufacturers?


----------



## Solude

18 gauge for low power low length was pretty over the top, doubled wow, just wow =)


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





n3rdling said:


> Would you say the same about the ALO cables or are they one of your approved manufacturers?


 
  What does ALO say about their cables?


----------



## TigzStudio

The magic is with the* Neotech* *up-occ* that all companies who sell up-occ use.  It is by far superior to anything else I have tried.  Neotech, a company in Japan, is the only one who has the rights to utilize the process to make ohno cast copper (up-occ)....thus everyone that sells up-occ ultimately gets it in bulk from them....cable companies just get the clear jacket or non labeled cables usually, and call it special because it is cryo'd....this is my take on it anyways...just one guys opinion who has done some research on it.   If you want stranded up-occ however, you can only buy it from Neotech in huge spools....so typically you have to be a dealer or a company to get it....unless you feel like purchasing miles of the stuff for a crap ton of $$.  Of course you can get solid core up-occ quite easily from multiple stores on the web, especially canadian sites right now (partsconexion, takefiveaudio) for some reason.  If you want to make your own cables I would suggest getting the up-occ stranded from double helix for 2.50 (that I have found anyway, I also have no affiliation with doublehelix FYI), cheapest way to get stranded up-occ in smaller quantities.  I recently made a cable with the double helix and it sounds amazing compared to my other silver/ofc copper/other cables.


----------



## Solude

Now if only Outlaw made headphone cable we could get OCC for peanuts =(


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





oqvist said:


> I liked the V200 a lot actually It´s not the slightest bit strident or overly bright. Not much differ those from my tube Head One in smoothness. All these amps have quite a wavery quality to them.
> 
> GHP gives me more I feel with the LCD-2. It focuses on correct tone then soundstage which is the compromise the LCD-2 does for me as well._* A bit higher resolution in the mid range and slightly more natural sounding. V200 give a bit bigger soundstage which is welcome but it feels like it pulls some tricks in the mid range to get there.*_ Sounding slightly more artifical and missing body somewhat on vocalists whereas the GHP sounds more like real life.


 
  Interesting.  Our perception of soundstage depth is often psycho-acoustically created or altered by a very minor ( as little as 0.5 dB)  rise or fall through the midrange and /or upper midrange FR.


----------



## n3rdling

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> What does ALO say about their cables?


 

 A sampling:
  http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/491564/audeze-lcd2-with-alo-lux-fep-18awg-cable/15#post_6800427
   
  Do they get a free pass here since their cables sound '4D'?


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





solude said:


> Now if only Outlaw made headphone cable we could get OCC for peanuts =(


 
  Yes, it's the same copper, but stranding gauge, jacketing, and geometry are all different, and then it's cryo treated too.  
   
  Might be worth a try, rolling your own from a couple 3m lengths of the stuff.  Of course you'll have to strip the wires out of the braid, and tec-flex or braid the whole thing together when you're done.  2-3m PCA cables will go for $140.00, add the tec-flex, connectors, etc.  You could roll your own for around 200 bux if your time wasn't worth anything.  Only downside would be that the roll your own brand would be a lot stiffer, less flexible, and be in PVC and not teflon insulation, and not be cryo treated.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





n3rdling said:


> A sampling:
> http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/491564/audeze-lcd2-with-alo-lux-fep-18awg-cable/15#post_6800427
> 
> Do they get a free pass here since their cables sound '4D'?


 
  You must have given me the wrong link.  I didn't see any marketing statements from ALO.  Do you have a link?  Are they saying something about how they "sound?" (A subjective statement) or are they claiming some objective performance spec about their cable?  Did they suggest you listen to the cable and form your own opinion, or did they expect you to take their word for it and plunk down your money?


----------



## n3rdling

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> You must have given me the wrong link.  I didn't see any marketing statements from ALO.  Do you have a link?  Are they saying something about how they "sound?" (A subjective statement) or are they claiming some objective performance spec about their cable?  Did they suggest you listen to the cable and form your own opinion, or did they expect you to take their word for it and plunk down your money?


 

 Maybe the link is different on your computer somehow, so I'll paste the marketing statement you requested:
   
  "To me the cable is far cleaner sounding than the stock cable which is too dark for the LCD2 drivers, also there are improvements in the imaging and openess."
   
  If the above quote isn't showing on your computer somehow I can take a print screen of my monitor and post the resultant picture.  If the quote IS showing on your computer, do you agree that what ALO is doing (and pretty much any other manufacturer) is no different than what you slammed Sudgen for earlier?  Or, again, do they get a free pass?


----------



## Solude

Think hes referring to your comment not Alo's.  Not saying buying from Outlaw then making my own is a good idea but that OCC cables don't need to cost $425.  Moon is also OCC but $225 for 10ft.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





n3rdling said:


> Maybe the link is different on your computer somehow, so I'll paste the marketing statement you requested:
> 
> "To me the cable is far cleaner sounding than the stock cable which is too dark for the LCD2 drivers, also there are improvements in the imaging and openess."
> 
> If the above quote isn't showing on your computer somehow I can take a print screen of my monitor and post the resultant picture.  If the quote IS showing on your computer, do you agree that what ALO is doing (and pretty much any other manufacturer) is no different than what you slammed Sudgen for earlier?  Or, again, do they get a free pass?


 

 You are comparing apples and oranges here.  The brochure from Sudgen, was a brochure and purported to be spewing all sorts of important scientific and technical attributes about the circuit design of the amp.  I was hogwash.
   
  The statement by Ken was a personal comment on the fly in a forum attempting to answer a specific question by a specific poster.  His statements were about subjective attributes having to do with the sound of a cable, and in the end, he suggested the questioner listen for themselves and make up their own mind. 
   
  Do you see those two scenarios as equivalent?  I'm still waiting for you to give me a like for like instance.  When can I expect that from you?  Thx.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





solude said:


> Think hes referring to your comment not Alo's.  Not saying buying from Outlaw then making my own is a good idea but that OCC cables don't need to cost $425.  Moon is also OCC but $225 for 10ft.


 
  Buy the cable from Moon then.  I'm sure it's identical.  Well, no, but they do make good cabes.  Wait, all cables sound the same.  Why bother?
   
  If he was trying to quote me, he didn't link to the correct post, and furthermore, I made the subjective comment about the "like 4D" not Ken from ALO.  That instance also is not remotely related to the marketing slick by Sudgen.
  
  If rolling your own for a couple hundred bucks to end up with an inferior product, go for it!  Be my guest!  If you are going to factor your time as being worth anything, what sort of wage are you going to pay yourself?  How much does the mortgage, electricity, heat, water, etc. cost while you're doing that project?  From start to finish, how much time do you invest for such a project?  Two hours, including procurement of parts?  Maybe 4 hours?  Maybe a whole day, off and on.  How much do you spend on tools, vise, jigs, wire strippers, soldering stations?  Screw up a connector?  Throw away waste and do it over?  'Cmmon!  even 500 bux is not wholly unreasonable for what the finished product is.  Then again, if all cable sounds the same, stick with the OEM cable.


----------



## n3rdling

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> You are comparing apples and oranges here.  The brochure from Sudgen, was a brochure and purported to be spewing all sorts of important scientific and technical attributes about the circuit design of the amp.  I was hogwash.
> 
> The statement by Ken was a personal comment on the fly in a forum attempting to answer a specific question by a specific poster.  His statements were about subjective attributes having to do with the sound of a cable, and in the end, he suggested the questioner listen for themselves and make up their own mind.
> 
> Do you see those two scenarios as equivalent?  I'm still waiting for you to give me a like for like instance.  When can I expect that from you?  Thx.


 

 Your original post that raised my eyebrows was:
   
   
   
  Quote: 





> The text on the marketing brochure is *pure drivel*, and Sudgen make *no mention of the capability of their product*.  It is* pretty though*.


 
   
  If one were to believe the ALO cable and comments from ALO thus far fall under the three bolded statements, surely you can understand why they'd be inclined to consider this a like for like instance, no?  It's obvious now that you don't see them as being comparable so we aren't going to agree.  I do however find it interesting that specs and measurements only matter when convenient.
   
  Something is rotten in the Pacific Northwest.


----------



## sachu

Quote: 





n3rdling said:


> Something is rotten in the Pacific Northwest.


 

 hey buddy..don''t hate the PNW. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  you all need to chill the frack out and just listen to some tunes and ignore all the controversies sometimes on the forums...


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





n3rdling said:


> Your original post that raised my eyebrows was:
> 
> If one were to believe the ALO cable and comments from ALO thus far fall under the three bolded statements, surely you can understand why they'd be inclined to consider this a like for like instance, no?  It's obvious now that you don't see them as being comparable so we aren't going to agree.  I do however find it interesting that specs and measurements only matter when convenient.
> 
> Something is rotten in the Pacific Northwest.


 
  No I don't see your point at all.  Does anybody else?  You do not seem to be thinking clearly here.  Maybe it's me and I just don't get your drift.  Would you care to be specific?  Let's go point for point, maybe you can help me to understand what you're trying to get at.  Let's do it via PM though so we don't further derail this thread.  Then when we're done, you can publish in your own thread, or you can start a new thread right now and we can discuss point by point openly, in front of everyone.  Just send me the link, and make it the correct one this time.  See you there.


----------



## tunarat

Quote: 





sachu said:


> hey buddy..don''t hate the PNW.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  But YOU know how those tunes sound with the 8 wire.


----------



## sachu

yes indeedy..based on meet conditions i could tell there was noticeable improvement.as usual, listneing time for me at the meet was fairly limited, mostly spent talking, smoking drinking..hehe
  .but can't wait to get my own cable next week to really see what that cable can do with my rig at home.


----------



## Gu Sensei

Quote:


			
				gogogasgas said:
			
		

> *LUXMAN P-1u/LCD-2  feedback:*
> Gu Sensei- did you get a chance to do some in-depth listening with LCD-2s and the Luxman P-1u?


   
  I spent a few hours with the combo (P-1 not P-1u) yesterday and found the pairing quite nice. My usual impression of the P-1 came through- excellent detail retrieval and just a touch smooth- overall a superb amp. While I feel not-so-good recordings fair very well with the LCD-2s due to a lack of treble peaks which results in the listener being spared painful sibilance, other aspects (roughness, jaggedness??-sorry lacking good vocabulary to describe it) of the poor recording are still noticeable. The P-1 seems to smooth them over just a touch as compared to my Leben. I noticed nothing else to make me think that the P-1 was incapable of driving the LCD-2s properly. I do generally prefer my Leben, the sound seems a bit more transparent and adds a little something else (sparkle, glow, life??? again, the vocabulary thing) that makes me love that amp so much. I would not take any of this as the last word on the combo though. I am sure others have better ears and better training than I. I think very highly of both amps and undoubtedly that colors my experience as well. Also, I am still getting a handle on the LCD-2s. I will provide updates or additional thoughts if anything changes. Hope that helps.
   
  Quote:


gogogasgas said:


> Do you happen to have a link for the Japanese review of the Luxman with the HD-800s?


 
   
  No. I am not aware of such review.


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





oqvist said:


> I liked the V200 a lot actually It´s not the slightest bit strident or overly bright. Not much differ those from my tube Head One in smoothness. All these amps have quite a wavery quality to them.
> 
> GHP gives me more I feel with the LCD-2. It focuses on correct tone then soundstage which is the compromise the LCD-2 does for me as well. A bit higher resolution in the mid range and slightly more natural sounding. V200 give a bit bigger soundstage which is welcome but it feels like it pulls some tricks in the mid range to get there. Sounding slightly more artifical and missing body somewhat on vocalists whereas the GHP sounds more like real life.


 

 Hi oqvist.  I've read through some of your concerns with the LCD2 soundstage and imaging and your reservation about the LCD2s on these issues.  I find it strange that in some of your posts, you've felt that some closed cans in your collection have better staging and imaging - but from my experience, any soundstage from closed cans is more or less fake, because within a closed cans soundstaging, there is no imaging whatsoever.  I personally have found the soundstage of the LCD2s - combined with real imaging, is superior to most cans on the market - the ones that are reportedly better are also in the hi-end league...closed cans don't cut it with imaging I find.  Not having a go at your observations or anything, just reporting a stark contrast to what I subjectively hear, thats all.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  
  Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> Interesting.  Our perception of soundstage depth is often psycho-acoustically created or altered by a very minor ( as little as 0.5 dB)  rise or fall through the midrange and /or upper midrange FR.


 

 I do agree that soundstage dimensions can be influenced by frequency response, but I do not believe that FR is the primary factor that creates a psycho acoustic soundstage (I don't think that's what you're implying, just my 2 cents) - I think phasing, reflections and all sorts of interactions within a cup/driver assembly contribute to this phenomenon.  But your comment did get me thinking...is it a coincidence that cans known for massive soundstages all have somewhat of a treble peak - with lesser bass impact? e.g. K701, HD800.  Hence I find the LCD2 soundstage superior to both as the stage itself do not simply occupy the upper-mid/treble regions - but through the entire spectrum.  I have the LCD2 pegged as the largest soundstage with regards to overall volume, eclipsing both K701 and HD800.  But the HD800 projects a forward stage/image - which when you think about, should not occur with headphones.


----------



## Currawong

Gu Sensei: Your description of the P-1 matches my impressions. 
   
  Regarding other amps, I tended to find that amps lacking in power tended to sound more mid-forward with a narrower headstage and rolled-off bass, to varying degrees.  My test for this is Jeff Buckley's The Way Young Lovers Do  from The Grace EPs (Live From The Bataclan).  With a good amp, you feel like you're in the middle of the audience, with a poorer one, you feel as if you're behind the audience, with everything happening in front of you.   One's source has to be taken into account as well with this.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





sp wild said:


> I do agree that soundstage dimensions can be influenced by frequency response, but I do not believe that FR is the primary factor that creates a psycho acoustic soundstage (I don't think that's what you're implying, just my 2 cents) - I think phasing, reflections and all sorts of interactions within a cup/driver assembly contribute to this phenomenon.  But your comment did get me thinking...is it a coincidence that cans known for massive soundstages all have somewhat of a treble peak - with lesser bass impact? e.g. K701, HD800.  Hence I find the LCD2 soundstage superior to both as the stage itself do not simply occupy the upper-mid/treble regions - but through the entire spectrum.  I have the LCD2 pegged as the largest soundstage with regards to overall volume, eclipsing both K701 and HD800.  But the HD800 projects a forward stage/image - which when you think about, should not occur with headphones.


 
  there are two principal components to "soundstaging" in headphones.  The first component is "real" and comprised of the information captured and preserved in the actual recording itself.  Subtle phase relationships that direct and reflected sounds have relative to all other recorded information...  That's the real thing and that's what we want to preserve.  If your sound reproduction is not phase faithful, a lot of this information can be lost in the recording.
   
  The second component of soundstage and imaging is completely artificial.  It is produced by subtle alterations to the frequency response, sonic cues from reflections and sounds coming through the back of an open headphone and reaching the listener's ears.  The brain struggles to make sense of these non sequitur cues and integrate them into our perception of the sound field we're hearing.
   
  I am really interested in preserving that which is real, and, most of the time, would like to do away with that which is artificial.  That is my personal taste of preference.  There are many others who prefer to have an "enhanced" sense of soundstage.  That's fine too.  Both tastes in reproduction are valid.


----------



## SoupRKnowva

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> there are two principal components to "soundstaging" in headphones.  The first component is "real" and comprised of the information captured and preserved in the actual recording itself.  Subtle phase relationships that direct and reflected sounds have relative to all other recorded information...  That's the real thing and that's what we want to preserve.  If your sound reproduction is not phase faithful, a lot of this information can be lost in the recording.
> 
> The second component of soundstage and imaging is completely artificial.  It is produced by subtle alterations to the frequency response, sonic cues from reflections and sounds coming through the back of an open headphone and reaching the listener's ears.  The brain struggles to make sense of these non sequitur cues and integrate them into our perception of the sound field we're hearing.
> 
> I am really interested in preserving that which is real, and, most of the time, would like to do away with that which is artificial.  That is my personal taste of preference.  There are many others who prefer to have an "enhanced" sense of soundstage.  That's fine too.  Both tastes in reproduction are valid.


 

 Kevin, you jsut did a better job explaining why i like the JH-3A's so much, and why i dislike the HD-800's so much, than i could ever have


----------



## SP Wild

Back on the low level listening thing again.  I find the LCD2 at low level is super at digging details especially with my BCL.  But I am missing the low level - background, dream-away sound that I get with the HD650s.  Even at low levels - really low levels - the LCD2s is throwing details galore at my face - and it's hard to use for background listening because of the pinpoint trainsients.  This is where the HD650 softened transients come into play.
   
  So then I warmed up the Cayin HA1A and tried it with low level listening....superb - without a doubt this amp is the default amp for low level listening.  This is a VERY warm and laid-back amp when set to SET mode.  Transients are softened just enough to dream away with, but still sufficiently detailed enough as to hide nothing.  The Cayin and BCL has stood out from the rest of my amps.
   
  With the amp synergy thing...I think it's entirely personal.  My very warm Cayin sounds superb with the LCD2 and so does my detailed and neutral BCL, heck even the forward and lean XcanV3...the LCD2 is extremely chameleon like - showing up the amps character.  The only consideration is output power.
   
  Now how do I amp the LCD2s so it can bring me breakfast in bed....is there anything this can cannot do?


----------



## oqvist

The soundstage of the ED 8 for example. I don´t know if you heard that one SP Wild may be fake but it sounds much more natural and closer to the soundstage my speaker gets me. I still feel that speakers soundstaging are more natural and true to the recording then most headphones can achieve. Most of the music, movies I listen to are optimized for speaker listening after all. The ED 8 can do both close and distant sounds and project it forward like and still with decent width. I always like to picture having a band or singer in front of me instead of inside my head all the time. It´s not a headphone like the K701 where the soundstage feels artificial. So to say a closed headphone can´t image like an open is totally wrong. Open version of the same headphone you could expect better imaging from. The size of the soundstage are not huge. Prior to LCD-2 they have been borderline claustrophobic for movies/games and I had to relie on the Pro 900 which has larger ear cups and a larger soundstage. But after the LCD-2 they turned absolutely holographic and is more accurate with binaural recordings too. 
   
  Watching movies I can much more accurately picture where sound come from and at what distance with the ED 8 then the LCD-2 can.  I like to be able to picture the arena the game/movie/music is played at and get some sort of feel of the room. It´s hard when you have a soundstage that is very wide but has very little depth like the LCD-2 and where the singer/actor is often way to close to you. My main goal is just that I want my headphones to sound as real and transparent as possible. If they fool me and I can´t call the bluff great. I don´t want to be able to hear exactly where the sound is actually coming from.
   
  As for low level listening I find it a must for movies/games. They often have a lot of action going on in the sub frequencies and the LCD-2 can go from 15 minute of this is fun to quickly become oppressive. But yes I do find them doing great at low level listening like 70 DB.


----------



## gogogasgas

kwkarth said:


> Re the Sugden...  The text on the marketing brochure is pure drivel, and Sudgen make no mention of the capability of their product.  It is pretty though.


 
Geez, I just wanted to bring a new amp to the attention of the blog. I didn't expect it to cause strife. Sudgen is an up-market, conservative company known for quality products. They were just pressing the nature of this 'history' in their brochure. Perhaps it is because the product is pitched at the home and not the 'professional' market that irked kwkarth so, hmm? Just overpriced audiophilia? Perhaps.
Remember the reason many started to ignore the specs and trust their ears is because the specs only give a glimpse into the true potential of a piece of equipment. Tube amps measure (generally) poorly. Yet, in the face on the initial onslaught of some pretty crappy solid state gear with 'perfect' specs, people said they still preferred tubes. Exactly the same with CDs Vs LPs. The CDs measured well, and hey, it's just 0s and 1s right? So all CD players must sound the same! Etc etc, you know the BS in the numbers game. Tube as well as Class A solid state amps have strength and power that belies their modest output figures. Nevertheless, I agree, a decent set of specs is required in order to make an educated purchasing decision.


currawong said:


> I did plug my LCD-2s into a Parasound Zamp and it worked quite well.  I have a speaker-to-4-pin-XLR adaptor I made for this purpose. They are rated up to 15W/133dB (!!!) so it's unlikely you'll accidentally kill them, at least not before destroying you eardrums.


 
I've wondered about this option. Get a decent Class A amplifier, and rig-it like Currawong describes. Is this safe (as long as you keep the output of the amp within reason - no 200 watt per channel behemoths!)?
Are there other drawbacks, for example like differences in resistive loads (30ohms and above for headphones Vs the non-headphone speaker load of 4-16 ohms), when you connect a headphone to the speaker taps on an amp?
  PS I work down on the Gold Coast where the beautiful call of the Currawong fills the canyons between the buildings. 


oqvist said:


> I liked the V200 a lot actually It´s not the slightest bit strident or overly bright. Not much differ those from my tube Head One in smoothness. All these amps have quite a wavery quality to them.
> GHP gives me more I feel with the LCD-2. It focuses on correct tone then soundstage which is the compromise the LCD-2 does for me as well. A bit higher resolution in the mid range and slightly more natural sounding. V200 give a bit bigger soundstage which is welcome but it feels like it pulls some tricks in the mid range to get there. Sounding slightly more artifical and missing body somewhat on vocalists whereas the GHP sounds more like real life.


 
Your words describing the midrange ("Missing body on the vocalists") suggest you prefer the euphonics of tubes. 
  


kwkarth said:


> Interesting.  Our perception of soundstage depth is often psycho-acoustically created or altered by a very minor ( as little as 0.5 dB)  rise or fall through the midrange and /or upper midrange FR.


 
Very interesting! The same is said for moving coil cartridges. Many models achieve their 'perceived' insight and wider soundstage via rising top-ends. As for the same effect with a tube headphone amp, again I say tube euphonics... good old second harmonic distortion. Quite sweet and beguiling, especially with vocals.  


n3rdling said:


> Your original post that raised my eyebrows was:
> Quote:
> 
> 
> ...


 
He did get you on that one, Kwkarth. He was saying that you were subjective when describing (or referring to the manufactures description) of the cables and, conversely, objective in your criticism of Sudgen's somewhat subjective description of their new headphone amp. The fact does remain, Sudgen's blurb was light on facts, and heavy on spin.


gu sensei said:


> I spent a few hours with the combo (P-1 not P-1u) yesterday and found the pairing quite nice. My usual impression of the P-1 came through- excellent detail retrieval and just a touch smooth- overall a superb amp. While I feel not-so-good recordings fair very well with the LCD-2s due to a lack of treble peaks which results in the listener being spared painful sibilance, other aspects (roughness, jaggedness??-sorry lacking good vocabulary to describe it) of the poor recording are still noticeable. The P-1 seems to smooth them over just a touch as compared to my Leben. I noticed nothing else to make me think that the P-1 was incapable of driving the LCD-2s properly. I do generally prefer my Leben, the sound seems a bit more transparent and adds a little something else (sparkle, glow, life??? again, the vocabulary thing) that makes me love that amp so much. I would not take any of this as the last word on the combo though. I am sure others have better ears and better training than I. I think very highly of both amps and undoubtedly that colors my experience as well. Also, I am still getting a handle on the LCD-2s. I will provide updates or additional thoughts if anything changes. Hope that helps.


 
Thanks, Gu Sensei. I mentioned the 'smooth' factor too when referencing Luxman amps, on their Class A models in particular. It's sort-of a sonic signature of the stable. On the other hand, the 'glow' of the Leben you mention 'could' be that euphonic thing again. 


currawong said:


> Gu Sensei: Your description of the P-1 matches my impressions.
> 
> Regarding other amps, I tended to find that amps lacking in power tended to sound more mid-forward with a narrower headstage and rolled-off bass, to varying degrees.  My test for this is Jeff Buckley's The Way Young Lovers Do  from The Grace EPs (Live From The Bataclan).  With a good amp, you feel like you're in the middle of the audience, with a poorer one, you feel as if you're behind the audience, with everything happening in front of you.   One's source has to be taken into account as well with this.


 
The lower output of the P-1u, especially when compared with the V-200, is a concern for me. If an amp lacks 'headroom', it will change the sound. Especially, as I have learnt in this thread, in comparison to an amp that uses both a good amount of volts and current to provide a higher watts RMS output. That is why a fulsome set of specs is handy for info...wink.


sp wild said:


> Back on the low level listening thing again.  I find the LCD2 at low level is super at digging details especially with my BCL.  But I am missing the low level - background, dream-away sound that I get with the HD650s.  Even at low levels - really low levels - the LCD2s is throwing details galore at my face - and it's hard to use for background listening because of the pinpoint trainsients.  This is where the HD650 softened transients come into play.
> So then I warmed up the Cayin HA1A and tried it with low level listening....superb - without a doubt this amp is the default amp for low level listening.  This is a VERY warm and laid-back amp when set to SET mode.  Transients are softened just enough to dream away with, but still sufficiently detailed enough as to hide nothing.  The Cayin and BCL has stood out from the rest of my amps.
> With the amp synergy thing...I think it's entirely personal.  My very warm Cayin sounds superb with the LCD2 and so does my detailed and neutral BCL, heck even the forward and lean XcanV3...the LCD2 is extremely chameleon like - showing up the amps character.  The only consideration is output power.


 
This is why I am keeping my 'transient smoother', the HD-650s, on hand for movies and gaming. Smoothes over that nasty (digital? Hhhmm) edge that you get with DVDs and games. Less stressful...less accurate.


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





oqvist said:


> The soundstage of the ED 8 for example. I don´t know if you heard that one SP Wild may be fake but it sounds much more natural and closer to the soundstage my speaker gets me. I still feel that speakers soundstaging are more natural and true to the recording then most headphones can achieve. Most of the music, movies I listen to are optimized for speaker listening after all. The ED 8 can do both close and distant sounds and project it forward like and still with decent width. I always like to picture having a band or singer in front of me instead of inside my head all the time. It´s not a headphone like the K701 where the soundstage feels artificial. So to say a closed headphone can´t image like an open is totally wrong. Open version of the same headphone you could expect better imaging from. The size of the soundstage are not huge. Prior to LCD-2 they have been borderline claustrophobic for movies/games and I had to relie on the Pro 900 which has larger ear cups and a larger soundstage. But after the LCD-2 they turned absolutely holographic and is more accurate with binaural recordings too.
> 
> Watching movies I can much more accurately picture where sound come from and at what distance with the ED 8 then the LCD-2 can.  I like to be able to picture the arena the game/movie/music is played at and get some sort of feel of the room. It´s hard when you have a soundstage that is very wide but has very little depth like the LCD-2 and where the singer/actor is often way to close to you. My main goal is just that I want my headphones to sound as real and transparent as possible. If they fool me and I can´t call the bluff great. I don´t want to be able to hear exactly where the sound is actually coming from.
> 
> As for low level listening I find it a must for movies/games. They often have a lot of action going on in the sub frequencies and the LCD-2 can go from 15 minute of this is fun to quickly become oppressive. But yes I do find them doing great at low level listening like 70 DB.


 

 I don't own the ED8 so I do not doubt what you describe...its funny with your remarks about binaural recordings - I came to the conclusion a little while ago that only closed cans will be able to truly exploit this technique to the maximum.  Otherwise it was interesting to read your findings - cheers.


----------



## Currawong

Quote: 





gogogasgas said:


> PS I work down on the Gold Coast where the beautiful call of the Currawong fills the canyons between the buildings.


 
   
  I have a mate who lives in the Gold Coast. He tends though to like it for the beautiful women. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  The Sudgen is interesting.  It uses a current gain stage.  However, I am heading towards thinking that boutique British audio gear is over-priced.  This is probably more due to it being hand-made locally rather than farmed out to companies in China, but that's off-topic somewhat. Their site has no less fluff than I'd expect from any other audio company.
   
  I really do like Luxman. The P-1 and P-1u has their house sound, as described well by Gu Sensei and Asr in this thread and in a review respectively.  At the slight expense of ultimate detail and accuracy you get a little musicality. In the case of the P-1/P-1u I suspect this is the result of a bit of stereo crosstalk coming from my memory of how the headstage was with the HD-800s.  For expensive amps, I would have hoped that they could have done better than a regular Alps blue pot for the volume control, as honestly, they are not high-end components.  Unfortunately my friend is going to sell his P-1, so I don't think I can borrow it to try with the LCD-2s.
   
  Elekit are around the corner from me, literally, so I will drop them a line sometime and take the LCD-2s in to try with the TU-882R kit amp. I am not expecting much, so I hope to be surprised.


----------



## Cya|\|

Quote: 





tigzstudio said:


> The magic is with the* Neotech* *up-occ* that all companies who sell up-occ use.  It is by far superior to anything else I have tried.  Neotech, a company in Japan, is the only one who has the rights to utilize the process to make ohno cast copper (up-occ)....thus everyone that sells up-occ ultimately gets it in bulk from them....cable companies just get the clear jacket or non labeled cables usually, and call it special because it is cryo'd....this is my take on it anyways...just one guys opinion who has done some research on it.   If you want stranded up-occ however, you can only buy it from Neotech in huge spools....so typically you have to be a dealer or a company to get it....unless you feel like purchasing miles of the stuff for a crap ton of $$.  Of course you can get solid core up-occ quite easily from multiple stores on the web, especially canadian sites right now (partsconexion, takefiveaudio) for some reason.  If you want to make your own cables I would suggest getting the up-occ stranded from double helix for 2.50 (that I have found anyway, I also have no affiliation with doublehelix FYI), cheapest way to get stranded up-occ in smaller quantities.  I recently made a cable with the double helix and it sounds amazing compared to my other silver/ofc copper/other cables.


 
   
  Does the tonality change too? If so, toward the bright, or even warmer than default?


----------



## TigzStudio

Quote: 





cya|\| said:


> Does the tonality change too? If so, toward the bright, or even warmer than default?


 

 Mogami OFC I tested was muddy compared to the up-occ, silver was bright with the midrange sort of sucked out.  The up-occ seem to just be a window to the music if you will, everything just right.  Tests were done out of the V181 balanced.  First I had an audiophile friend, who does not believe in cables making a difference, come over to my place.  I set up a blind test with silver, ofc and up-occ.  Basically my friend and I each stuck to a single song we were extremely familiar with and heard lots and lots of times.  We also made sure it was a song that we were emotionally attached to.  I feel if it were a more emotional song for the listener, then you would possibly notice which LCD-2 cable swap would sound better.  My friend had no clue which of my cables were which, I did however.  So for my test I literally put a blindfold on myself and he made sure the cable didn't brush against me....etc.... My audiophile friend and I ended up clearly choosing a winner without any doubts....it was the up-occ.  It was actually quite apparent to us when we put in the up-occ vs. the others.
   
  So he is now officially a "cables do make a difference" convert.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





oqvist said:


> The soundstage of the ED 8 for example. I don´t know if you heard that one SP Wild may be fake but it sounds much more natural and closer to the soundstage my speaker gets me. I still feel that speakers soundstaging are more natural and true to the recording then most headphones can achieve. Most of the music, movies I listen to are optimized for speaker listening after all. The ED 8 can do both close and distant sounds and project it forward like and still with decent width. I always like to picture having a band or singer in front of me instead of inside my head all the time. It´s not a headphone like the K701 where the soundstage feels artificial. So to say a closed headphone can´t image like an open is totally wrong. Open version of the same headphone you could expect better imaging from. The size of the soundstage are not huge. Prior to LCD-2 they have been borderline claustrophobic for movies/games and I had to relie on the Pro 900 which has larger ear cups and a larger soundstage. But after the LCD-2 they turned absolutely holographic and is more accurate with binaural recordings too.
> 
> Watching movies I can much more accurately picture where sound come from and at what distance with the ED 8 then the LCD-2 can.  I like to be able to picture the arena the game/movie/music is played at and get some sort of feel of the room. It´s hard when you have a soundstage that is very wide but has very little depth like the LCD-2 and where the singer/actor is often way to close to you. My main goal is just that I want my headphones to sound as real and transparent as possible. If they fool me and I can´t call the bluff great. I don´t want to be able to hear exactly where the sound is actually coming from.
> 
> As for low level listening I find it a must for movies/games. They often have a lot of action going on in the sub frequencies and the LCD-2 can go from 15 minute of this is fun to quickly become oppressive. But yes I do find them doing great at low level listening like 70 DB.


 
  Soundstage recovery on speakers vs. on headphones is entirely dependent upon how the recording was made in the first place.
   
  Obviously, when we listen to speakers, they're usually in front of us and both ears hear the sound from both speakers.  The left and right ears hearing sound from their respective speakers slightly sooner than from the opposite side.  In addition to the subtle time delay, there is overall attenuation of the sound from the opposite side due to the "shadow" of one's face.  In addition to that, we have the "shadow" created by the pinnae of each ear, which gives us cues as to the vertical plane of origin.  Our brains integrate all of this "crossfeed" and create a 3D image of the soundspace we're listening to.  
   
  If the recording was recorded with a multimic'd set up and mixed down, all bets are off WRT sound-staging because there was none to preserve in the first place.  If, on the other hand, a traditional stereo microphone arrangement was used to make the recording, then our ability to recover the image captured in the recording will depend upon having our speakers approximately the same distance apart from one another as the microphones were when the recording was made.  That way more of the timing and reflections captured in the recording make sense to our brains as we mentally reconstruct the image of what we're listening to.
   
  When listening to headphones, maximum image recovery happens when the original recording was made with a coincident pair (mid-side or X-Y) of microphones were used.  This way, again, the timing of things as they were recorded, will make more sense to our brains as we mentally reconstruct the sound stage.
   
  This is where cross feed comes in handy...  When listening to a recording made with many mics, or a stereo pair many feet apart, creating some of the crosstalk that happens naturally with listening to speakers can become useful when listening to headphones.  Maybe that's why vinyl is making a comeback these days...  Crosstalk is built in to vinyl.  The average separation between channels on a record-phono cartridge system is only 25dB at best, where crosstalk in a digital medium is easily more than twice that at worst.
   
  Back in the day, Bob Carver did his thing with "Sonic Holography."  You old timers remember that?  He used phase cancellation techniques to cancel crosstalk between speakers in a room, thereby increasing the separation between them...  The polar opposite of cross-feed for headphones.  Virtual headphones!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  History...


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





tigzstudio said:


> Mogami OFC I tested was muddy compared to the up-occ, silver was bright with the midrange sort of sucked out.  The up-occ seem to just be a window to the music if you will, everything just right.  Tests were done out of the V181 balanced.  First I had an audiophile friend, who does not believe in cables making a difference, come over to my place.  I set up a blind test with silver, ofc and up-occ.  Basically my friend and I each stuck to a single song we were extremely familiar with and heard lots and lots of times.  We also made sure it was a song that we were emotionally attached to.  I feel if it were a more emotional song for the listener, then you would possibly notice which LCD-2 cable swap would sound better.  My friend had no clue which of my cables were which, I did however.  So for my test I literally put a blindfold on myself and he made sure the cable didn't brush against me....etc.... My audiophile friend and I ended up clearly choosing a winner without any doubts....it was the up-occ.  It was actually quite apparent to us when we put in the up-occ vs. the others.
> 
> So he is now officially a "cables do make a difference" convert.


 

 I totally buy your conclusions.  UP-OCC, to me just sounds fuller, more "right" in avery way.


----------



## kwkarth

> Originally Posted by *n3rdling*
> 
> Your original post that raised my eyebrows was:
> 
> ...





I didn't realize he was throwing rocks at me, I thought he was throwing rocks at a cable vendor.  In any event, I make both subjective and objective observations all the time.  Why should anyone be limited to one or the other?  Is there anyone in the whole wide world who does not practice both objective and subjective observation?  Did I ever mis-represent one as the other?  My comment re the Sudgen brochure was only to alert people to the fact that they really weren't saying anything.  Some people are captivated by big words and shiny things...


----------



## Seamaster

Quote: 





tigzstudio said:


> If you want to make your own cables I would suggest getting the up-occ stranded from double helix for 2.50 (that I have found anyway, I also have no affiliation with doublehelix FYI), cheapest way to get stranded up-occ in smaller quantities.


 


 The wires ALO used on HD800 is about the same wire motioned above,use polyethylene insulation. But the wires Ken use for LCD-2 are different. They are 18 gauge instead 24 gauge, and have fewer strands per wire than doublehelix, and each strand is thicker. ALO LCD-2 V1 and V2 wires use Teflon instead polyethylene insulation. The outer diameter is about the same for two types (ALO LCD-2 wire and HD800 wire), due to thinner Teflon insulation. The flexibility is about same, I did not notice difference, but I also did not pay attention this too.  The polyethylene insulation ed wire is quite warmer than Teflon coverd, HD800 indeed benefit from them. Maybe that's why ALO still using this type for their HD800 cables. V1 Teflon is brighter in a good way than ALO HD800 wire, which is good match with LCD-2, Ken did his home work on this looks like. V1 sound more refined and larger than LCD-2 stock cable, and also sound closer to stock cable compare to V2. V2 is different sounding cable compare to stock (relatively speaking for a cable). It allows music even free flow more, without any kink and graininess. Since the V2 cable is still a prototype, it has a cheaper headphone jack and not burn-in yet. I suggested ken to add little more spark on the top (just a hair), and stay in the middle between the two Camp of people: LCD-2 is dark VS. not dark. And avoid getting too warm. Ken said he will use better quality connector and solder, and retest.
   
   
  Quote: 





sachu said:


> hey buddy..don''t hate the PNW.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Quote: 





tunarat said:


> But YOU know how those tunes sound with the 8 wire.


 
  I liked the 8 wire V2 much much better than stock and much better than V1.



  
  Quote: 





gu sensei said:


>


 
  Thanks for the advise. I was digging very deep into the Leben. It would be perfect to have an amp do it all. But experience with P-1u really hold me back, after knowing the designer worked for Luxman. Again, everybody has different ears. I had my WA22 side by side with P-1u for sometimes, did not favor P-1u as whole. P-1u did do certain things better than WA22, vice versa. I just can't imagine people enjoy P-1u with HD800, that would be ear piercing experience for me, again, just me. That shows how different is music taste 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  
  Coming Seattle meet in Oct, someone may bring a SC300xs. Then I will make the call after hear it.


----------



## tunarat

Originally Posted by Currawong
 I did plug my LCD-2s into a Parasound Zamp and it worked quite well. I have a speaker-to-4-pin-XLR adaptor I made for this purpose. They are rated up to 15W/133dB (!!!) so it's unlikely you'll accidentally kill them, at least not before destroying you eardrums.

 I've wondered about this option. Get a decent Class A amplifier, and rig-it like Currawong describes. Is this safe (as long as you keep the output of the amp within reason - no 200 watt per channel behemoths!)?

 Are there other drawbacks, for example like differences in resistive loads (30ohms and above for headphones Vs the non-headphone speaker load of 4-16 ohms), when you connect a headphone to the speaker taps on an amp?
   
  I also would like to know the answer to this. Would like to rig my Almarro 318B in the same way.


----------



## Seamaster

Quote: 





tunarat said:


> I also would like to know the answer to this. Would like to rig my Almarro 318B in the same way.


 

 I have 50wpc tube amp... that means I could maybe get my hair permed for free if things go puff


----------



## tunarat

Ha Ha, yeah. The Almarro is only 18 wpc, mine would only be styled.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





tunarat said:


> Originally Posted by Currawong
> I did plug my LCD-2s into a Parasound Zamp and it worked quite well. I have a speaker-to-4-pin-XLR adaptor I made for this purpose. They are rated up to 15W/133dB (!!!) so it's unlikely you'll accidentally kill them, at least not before destroying you eardrums.
> 
> I've wondered about this option. Get a decent Class A amplifier, and rig-it like Currawong describes. Is this safe (as long as you keep the output of the amp within reason - no 200 watt per channel behemoths!)?
> ...


 

 Easy enough to use a good metal film resistor network to bring impedance and power matching in line.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





seamaster said:


> I have 50wpc tube amp... that means I could maybe get my hair permed for free if things go puff


 

 For me?  What hair?  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  All seriousness aside, it would be easy to build the right resistor network to do the job.


----------



## JaZZ

kwkarth said:


> there are two principal components to "soundstaging" in headphones. The first component is "real" and comprised of the information captured and preserved in the actual recording itself. Subtle phase relationships that direct and reflected sounds have relative to all other recorded information...  That's the real thing and that's what we want to preserve. If your sound reproduction is not phase faithful, a lot of this information can be lost in the recording.
> 
> The second component of soundstage and imaging is completely artificial. It is produced by subtle alterations to the frequency response, sonic cues from reflections and sounds coming through the back of an open headphone and reaching the listener's ears. The brain struggles to make sense of these non sequitur cues and integrate them into our perception of the sound field we're hearing.


 

 These statements call for some rectification. I agree with the first paragraph. The second paragraph is flawed, though. Unlike speakers, headphones are normally incapable of reproducing a (passably) natural soundstage. The main reason is that they can't simulate the direction of the sound sources, which are usually in front of you. The fact that the sound waves are laterally projected into the ears makes for the impression of the music playing in your head – for lack of spatial cues attributing them to out-of-head events. You know that there are some hybrids between speakers and headphones – K 1000, Jecklin Float, MDR-F1 and Stax Sigma come to mind. They at least partially succeed in creating a more realistic, more 3-dimensional spatial presentation. The reason for that is that these designs allow the sound waves to communicate with the outer ear before they reach the ear canal and the ear drum. The outer ear is the most important decoder of spatial cues and responsible for the differentiation between front and back, above and below sound sources. Now some open headphone designs also keep this function of the pinna passably intact, which means a more lifelike spatial presentation than most closed designs with their unavoidable chaotic earcup reflections corrupting the outer-ear decoding function. Finally supraaural headphones and canalphones bypass it completely. (BTW, speaking of «sounds coming through the back of an open headphone and reaching the listener's ears» is a funny mistake; if at all it should have meant «reflected sound coming from the back of a closed earpiece...».) Well, «passably intact» of course doesn't imply the localization of sound-source direction cues which aren't on the recording, but at least out-of-head localization or sometimes even in-front localization (the HD 800 is the first headphone that offers this feature to my ears).
   
  Speaking of the LCD-2: theoretically it offers quite a bit of potential tagets for criticism on artificial sound components – in the form of the magnet bars in front and at the back of the membrane. I haven't seen it in person, but I'm pretty sure that it shares this design with other planar/orthodynamic drivers, in contrast to real ribbon drivers. I have intensely occupied myself with planar and ribbon speakers and built several wide-range and tweeter drivers in the past. Enough to know that the best you can do is leave the radiating surface as free as possible for an unhindered and direct, unreflected radiation without abrupt changes of acoustic impedance. Apart from conventional dynamic transducers only ribbon transducers fulfill this precondition. There's a huge sonic difference between a ribbon driver and a planar magnetic driver with magnet bars in the way of the travelling sound waves. On the other hand, the conditions in a headphone are a bit different: There you can't have sound radiation without reflections – there's the ear in close proximity of the membrane, which represents a reflective surface and provokes multiple reflections between the driver and itself. Therefore the foam covering the driver to minimize this effect. For this reason I wouldn't condemn acoustically disturbing magnet bars in headphone drivers as a KO criterion beforehand. But if we're about to theorize... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



.


----------



## tunarat

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> For me?  What hair?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

  Easy for you, improbable/impossible for me. This is good though, now to source, thanks.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> ...snip...
> 
> Back in the day, Bob Carver did his thing with "Sonic Holography."  You old timers remember that?  He used phase cancellation techniques to cancel crosstalk between speakers in a room, thereby increasing the separation between them...  The polar opposite of cross-feed for headphones.  Virtual headphones!
> 
> ...


 

 I had the Carver gear back in the day, and it was very nice.  But my Polk SDA CRS speakers still do a better job of canceling cross-talk in a natural sounding way.  Rather than virtual headphones I get speakers with tremendous imaging and 3D soundstage that extends beyond the boundaries of the speakers and is all encompassing.  I still use those speakers today, 25 years later.
   
  Staying on topic, the HD800, HE60, K1000 and LCD-2 are among the "headphone equivalent" to the SDA speaker's sound (stereo dimensional array), in that the sound also seems to be more encompassing than many other headphones, without using crosstalk (not the same as the speaker, but more in that direction than others).  I know that there is some sound leakage from the backside of the drivers that the opposite ears could pick up, but that can't explain all of it.
   
  I do agree that the way the recording was made has a lot to do with how well the headphones image, and even my phones that do it best can't match the imaging of speakers for me.


----------



## gogogasgas

I am learning and re-learning so much in this thread! Very interesting and helpful posts.
   
  Thanks Currawong. Yes, we are paying for the 'handmade' nature of some hi-fi products. However, the boutique companies are often where we find the people who go the extra mile with the use of quality design and components. Thanks too, along with Gu Sensei and Asr et al, with the summation of the P-1/P-1u's faults/attributes/sound leanings. It would be interesting to read your comments on the LCD-2/Luxman combo should you get a loan of the P-1. As for the other 'birds' on the Gold Coast, the area does live up to reputation as 'God's Waiting Room'. (for US readers, think: Florida) Another prevalent 'bird' is the Kiwi...
   
  When you are thinking of shelling-out thousands of dollars for a piece of specialised equipment, you want to hear from as many informed folk as you can. Especially when you can't strut into a store and listen to a piece of equipment first hand. Instead, I must ask questions, upgrade my knowledge, look at those specs and draw on my past experience before sending payment for an amp I have neither seen or heard, to a stranger in the UK, Germany or the US. I'm sure there are many on this thread who are familiar with the experience.
   
  So, has the field narrowed enough for any of the Head-Fi administrators or mega posters to stick their necks out for a short list of top picks in both the solid state and tube categories? In the solid state, I would have thought the Violetric V-200 was a goer, but some are not sure. I just think it would be good to distill the findings of the thread into a top five list, with any caveats included.


----------



## tunarat

I'm waiting for Skylab's review on the Apex Peak thread. I value his opinion and I like the 6sn7, more than I wanted to spend though.


----------



## Seamaster

Quote: 





gogogasgas said:


> When you are thinking of shelling-out thousands of dollars for a piece of specialised equipment, you want to hear from as many informed folk as you can. Especially when you can't strut into a store and listen to a piece of equipment first hand. Instead, I must ask questions, upgrade my knowledge...


 


 IMHO, the best opinion is your own opinion. Listen before you buy is always a good idea. Try to go to meet or something.


----------



## oqvist

my list for the LCD-2 would be
   
  GHP
  V200
  Head One
   
  reevaluating the V200 after changing some jumper settings though.
   
  GHP and V200 never seem to run out of juice for the LCD-2. Could live happy ever after with both.
  Head One I am not sure if it does or if it´s the softer tube transients I hear.
  It does sound great on the LCD-2 as well surely. But I slightly preferr the solid states for the LCD-2 overall.


----------



## Seamaster

LCD-2 sound fine with my WA22. Sound too warm with WA6. Great with stacker 2 and their sister design


----------



## superjohny

WA5?


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





tunarat said:


> I'm waiting for Skylab's review on the Apex Peak thread. I value his opinion and I like the 6sn7, more than I wanted to spend though.


 

 I'm not exactly sure when that's going to occur - the Volcano PS is apparently being upgraded/redesigned.  I'm supposed to be getting the review loaner unit next, but don't have any update as to when it will be sent.  Just FYI.


----------



## Warstew

If anyone else was thinking of pairing the LCD-2 with a Valhalla, this is the response I received.
   
   
  Quote: 





> One caveat: The Valhalla is a great match for the HD650 and HD800, but it's going to struggle with the Audeze 'phones, since they're both low-impedance and low-sensitivity. If you're looking for headbanging levels from the Audeze, the Valhalla will be a disappointment.
> All the best,
> Jason Stoddard
> Co-Founder


----------



## Cya|\|

Quote: 





warstew said:


> If anyone else was thinking of pairing the LCD-2 with a Valhalla, this is the response I received.


 

 Thanks, i was really looking forward  to this opinion. So i guess the best tube choice remain hybrid or very high power (and expensive...) otl.


----------



## Currawong

OTL (output transformer-less) amps work best with high-impedance headphones. They aren't a good match with low-impedance headphones, such as the LCD-2s. I know it's a pain to get one's head around the different types of tube amps.


----------



## Skylab

The Woo Audio WA6 works very well with the LCD-2, since it is transformer coupled. And it's pretty affordable. So there are tube amp options without spending a zillion.


----------



## oqvist

I definiatly preferr my solid states for the LCD-2 though... Why sacrifice some of the speed it has? The LCD-2 is all but harsh it really doesn´t need tubes to soften things up
  I feel.


----------



## charliex

Quote: 





warstew said:


> If anyone else was thinking of pairing the LCD-2 with a Valhalla, this is the response I received.


 

 How about the solid state class A Asgard?


----------



## SP Wild

FWIW I'm finding low level listening with the LCD2s pairs better with tubes than solid state to rid it off the pin sharp transients, details and suck some "air" out so I can relax to the sound - which is what I feel the whole reason for listening to softly is for me.  I value solid state for referencing reality kinda essential - but this will damage your hearing very quickly - at lower volumes, there is no basis to compare to reality and it's all up to the imagination!  I for one have never rehearsed or performed below a certain volume level.  When it comes to headphones, I spend more time in low levels than realistic levels.  My 2 cents.


----------



## oqvist

What solid states do you use? I have had "harsh" solid states before but there is not a hint of sharpness in the GHP V9 and V200...Smooth as butter but distincter then the Head One.


----------



## SP Wild

I am using the Lehmann Black Cube Linear, also smooth as butter - however this is more to do with my love for the tube sound.  At reference levels, the BCL and LCD2 combo blows my mind away with it's realism.  At low level listening its all up to your fantasies.  Including pleasant soft focussing, full bodied tubes, IMO.


----------



## Cya|\|

Do you think a hybrid amp like this would work? http://cgi.ebay.it/G2-Class-A-Hybrid-Tube-Headphone-Pre-Amplifier-6922Gold-/250684595815?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0
  I'm thinking about buying this in the future, for musical listening over the audio-gd sparrow or fun.


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





cya|\| said:


> Do you think a hybrid amp like this would work? http://cgi.ebay.it/G2-Class-A-Hybrid-Tube-Headphone-Pre-Amplifier-6922Gold-/250684595815?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0
> I'm thinking about buying this in the future, for musical listening over the audio-gd sparrow or fun.


 

 Why bottleneck a 1K can that is comparable to a 5K+ O2 setup - with a 99 dollar amp? Even the formidable Audio GD combo units wouldn't really carry justice.  Save your money - then go for broke.
   
  Source first.  But if you really can't afford - I guess the LCD2s can be driven by most SS/Hybrid amps with OK results at low levels - but then you could've saved money and bought a lesser can to start with.


----------



## Cya|\|

Quote: 





sp wild said:


> Why bottleneck a 1K can that is comparable to a 5K+ O2 setup - with a 99 dollar amp? Even the formidable Audio GD combo units wouldn't really carry justice.  Save your money - then go for broke.
> 
> Source first.  But if you really can't afford - I guess the LCD2s can be driven by most SS/Hybrid amps with OK results at low levels - but then you could've saved money and bought a lesser can to start with.


 

 I'm a student. I think i'm the only student who's gonna spend so much money on the headphones 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. I got the money by working during summer, but i won't be able to spend much money on amp and source.
  The headphones (and speakers) are the ones who most affect sound quality, so i'll first spend my money on the headphone, and later on the source/amp. Actually, i'll keep the audio gd fun if the whole system won't be able to beat my speaker system.
  If i'll have 100 euros spare, i'll buy that amp for musical listening.
  But i really doubts i'll be able to upgrade the other components before i'll finish university and get a real work


----------



## SP Wild

Save your money for a nice night out with a nice girl I say.


----------



## Solude

Most effect sound result not quality.  Source affects quality the most, amps job is to not lose that quality and cans the produce it.  So while cans have the most noticable effect on the end result colour, they can at best reproduce what got there.  There is a ceiling however and I feel that amps/sources above $1000 are deep into diminishing returns.  Good ones anyway, plenty of crap expensive gear to go around 
  
  Quote: 





cya|\| said:


> The headphones (and speakers) are the ones who most affect sound quality


----------



## Currawong

This isn't addressed at any particular person, but regarding solid-state versus tube amps: Harshness is the result of distortion, which is the result of a lack of linearity in the performance of an amp (and likely the source as well).  The idea that tube amps are "warm" or "slow" and that solid state gear is cold and harsh comes from the proliferation of cheap amps among Head-fi members which tend, sometimes, to match these descriptions due to their simple designs. As well, there is the idea that the strength of the treble of gear relates to its speed, which couldn't be further from the truth.  I have no doubt that if the LCD-2s hadn't been measured at Canjam, that people would be arguing that they are slow, because they have fallen into the trap that treble equates to speed.  I've been there and done that myself. I can tell you from both listening experience and from measured performance, that high-end amps do not fit these descriptions at all regardless of type, unless they are poor quality. Neither the $1000+ solid state amps I've used recently are cold and harsh, and neither were the tube amps I've tried slow.  Some people I've noticed, DO like their music delivered very "warm" and do, regardless of quality, not like dead-neutral gear, finding it unmusical. Other people like straight-wire-with-gain, and so on...
   
  I just wanted to get that out of the way.


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





currawong said:


> This isn't addressed at any particular person, but regarding solid-state versus tube amps: Harshness is the result of distortion, which is the result of a lack of linearity in the performance of an amp (and likely the source as well).  The idea that tube amps are "warm" or "slow" and that solid state gear is cold and harsh comes from the proliferation of cheap amps among Head-fi members which tend, sometimes, to match these descriptions due to their simple designs. As well, there is the idea that the strength of the treble of gear relates to its speed, which couldn't be further from the truth.  I have no doubt that if the LCD-2s hadn't been measured at Canjam, that people would be arguing that they are slow, because they have fallen into the trap that treble equates to speed.  I've been there and done that myself. I can tell you from both listening experience and from measured performance, that high-end amps do not fit these descriptions at all regardless of type, unless they are poor quality. Neither the $1000+ solid state amps I've used recently are cold and harsh, and neither were the tube amps I've tried slow.  Some people I've noticed, DO like their music delivered very "warm" and do, regardless of quality, not like dead-neutral gear, finding it unmusical. Other people like straight-wire-with-gain, and so on...
> 
> I just wanted to get that out of the way.


 

 I think that was an excellent post.  I know I was in the camp of higher treble equates to higher speed since the beginning of my head-fi journey and it's a common mistake, which unfortunately, I find manifests in even the most respected of published reviews.  I think there is more knowledge here than out there that's for sure!


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





cya|\| said:


> Do you think a hybrid amp like this would work? http://cgi.ebay.it/G2-Class-A-Hybrid-Tube-Headphone-Pre-Amplifier-6922Gold-/250684595815?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0
> I'm thinking about buying this in the future, for musical listening over the audio-gd sparrow or fun.


 

 While I agree with the others that you get what you pay for generally, I believe that is the same as the Bravo/Indeed hybrid amp that I used for awhile, and you will definitely get the all the volume you want out of that amp if it's the same design. It's a high-gain amp that I disliked with Sennheisers and hated with Grados, but it was a good amp with my K701 so I think it would do reasonably well with the LCD-2, another low impedance, low efficiency headphone. Makes me want to take it out of storage and see how it does with my HE-5; I would guess pretty well since it has roughly the same power requirements as the K701. Some of these cheap high-gain hybrids and SS amps from China can sound halfway decent if the synergy is right. And that's one thing that a cheap amp can do, is synergise with certain kinds of headphones but your choices can be limited.


----------



## TigzStudio

haha, if your spending $1,000 in a single night on a girl....your in trouble. 
  
  Quote: 





sp wild said:


> Save your money for a nice night out with a nice girl I say.


 
   

 Also just adding that my tube/hybrid amp is the best I have heard with my LCD-2's....and quite a few people love their Leben's with the LCD-2's as well, so its not just solid state that can make the Audeze sound great.


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





tigzstudio said:


> haha, if your spending $1,000 in a single night on a girl....your in trouble.


 

 Yah kiddin me! 1K on just _*one *_girl on a *single* night - she'd better be good - like LCD2 good.


----------



## Cya|\|

Quote: 





tigzstudio said:


> haha, if your spending $1,000 in a single night on a girl....your in trouble.
> 
> 
> 
> Also just adding that my tube/hybrid amp is the best I have heard with my LCD-2's....and quite a few people love their Leben's with the LCD-2's as well, so its not just solid state that can make the Audeze sound great.


 

 Yeah, your opinion on the stacker 2, is one that made me think about hybrid amps, for musical listening.


----------



## gsilver

Hi. Has there been any testing of the M-Stage with the LCD-2? 
   
  I may be coming into some money sooner than I thought, and new cans are at the top of my list (well, second after CDs...)
  I've narrowed the search down to the LCD-2 and HD800 (I've heard positive things about the latter and the M-Stage).
   
   
  Or, if an amp upgrade is justified (I do have a use for the M-Stage elsewhere), I'd like one with at least 3 inputs, preferably two of them balanced (two of my sources have balanced out in addition to RCA, which I'm currently using).


----------



## Warstew

[size=10pt]Not sure if I want to buy their products because they are the schiit, or is it cause I just like these guys.[/size]

  
  Quote: 





charliex said:


> How about the solid state class A Asgard?


 

  
   
  [size=medium] [/size]
  [size=medium]Quote: [/size] 





> [size=medium]  [/size]  [size=medium][size=medium]The Asgard is a very good match with the Audeze 'phones--we've confirmed this with some listening time, and several people on head-fi have confirmed this. [/size][/size]
> [size=medium] [/size]
> [size=medium][size=medium]And . . . as far as us, and our attitude . . . personally, I think there are a lot of people who take this whole audio thing way too seriously. This is about music! We should be having fun! Yeah, we rub some people the wrong way, and that's totally cool--plenty of other great headphone amps out there for them.[/size][/size]
> [size=medium] [/size]
> ...


 
  [size=medium] [/size]


----------



## SP Wild

I nominate Jason the coolest rep ever.


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





gsilver said:


> Hi. Has there been any testing of the M-Stage with the LCD-2?
> 
> I may be coming into some money sooner than I thought, and new cans are at the top of my list (well, second after CDs...)
> I've narrowed the search down to the LCD-2 and HD800 (I've heard positive things about the latter and the M-Stage).
> ...


 

 FWIW...I run the BCL with great results.


----------



## TigzStudio

Also if you are looking for a musical solid state the v181 is a great choice.  I paid $799.00 shipped from aphroditecu29.com.  If you aren't into the whole balanced thing, the v200 is only $100.00 more expensive and probably a great choice as well (haven't heard it yet).  With the V181/LCD-2 I find myself listening with it all the time, I never find a track that forces me to change the song...I just want to listen to anything and everything with this combo.  I am looking to compare my v181 against the goldpoint soon that was mentioned as being more realistic sounding than the v200.   I am thinking that oqvist might be on to something with matching the strengths in the LCD-2 with similar similar strengths in amps.  Plus the goldpoint is pretty inexpensive compared to a lot of amps.


----------



## Skylab

Well, some good news - a couple tube changes and some run-in my new Decware Mini-Torii is nice and quiet.  And it is absolutely TERRIFIC with both of my planar/orthos.  It drives the LCD-2 and HE-5LE really, really well - better than anything else I have other than the Leben.
   
  For those unfamiliar, the Mini-Torii is a transformer-coupled, 6V6-based amp, which will push 3W to speakers.  It has all the oomph one could ever possibly want out of headphones.  When I called Steve Deckert to order one (this was not a review loaner - I bought and paid full price up front for it), he thought this might be a good choice.  The amp does not normally come with a headphone jack - you have to ask him to add that.  But the thing is really gutsy - it had a lot of punch, but delivers all the detail that planars are capable of.
   
  So add this to the list of amps that at least this crazy head-fier thinks are a good match for planars.
   
  Glamor shot:


----------



## Equus

Nice pics, Skylab.  Man that is a veritable forest of tubes.


----------



## Skylab

That it is, LOL.  Truly dual-mono - 5 tubes per side


----------



## tunarat

Stunning! Nice tube combos, I'm drooling


----------



## TigzStudio

Nice!  That is definitely a lot of freaking tubes!  Don't think I could deal with tube rolling on that, might lose my mind.  Don't burn your hand plugging in your quarter inch 
   
  Here is a cool write up about the Mini Torri from the main site.
   
  http://www.decware.com/paper96.htm


----------



## BrainFood

How much extra was it?
    
  Quote:


skylab said:


> The amp does not normally come with a headphone jack - you have to ask him to add that.


----------



## Skylab

Well, he didn't charge me any extra, but he may have done that since I was kind of a guinea pig - he had never put one in a mini-torii before. So I'm not sure if it will have a cost generally or not.


----------



## grokit

Did you get a chance to try it with the HE-6 after it settled down?
  
  Quote: 





skylab said:


> Well, some good news - a couple tube changes and some run-in my new Decware Mini-Torii is nice and quiet.  And it is absolutely TERRIFIC with both of my planar/orthos.  It drives the LCD-2 and HE-5LE really, really well - better than anything else I have other than the Leben.


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





grokit said:


> Did you get a chance to try it with the HE-6 after it settled down?


 

 Unfortunately, no.  The amp arrived the day after I had to send the HE-6 packing, due to the 1 week requirement of the loaner program.  But given the power this thing has, and the way it drives the HE-5LE (very, very well), it's an almost ideal amp for the HE-6.  The Mini-torri included a variable treble roll-off control (which is defeatable and out of the circuit completely when switched off) that could be used to dial down the highs of the HE-6 very subtly if desired.  I wish I had been able to try this.  On some recordings, it is a godsend with the HE-5LE.


----------



## grokit

*drool*


----------



## SBoy

I was wondering has anybody tried it on Cavalli's bijou amp?


----------



## Racio

Subscribe


----------



## Equus

Quote: 





sboy said:


> I was wondering has anybody tried it on Cavalli's bijou amp?


 

 Not I.  Only Cavalli amps I think I've heard the LCD-2's on are the Stacker II and the Liquid Fire and Gold prototypes.


----------



## SillyHoney

My LCD-2 is on its way and now it's time for an amp. V200, WA6, Meier Concerto seem to be best options out there but they are kinda out of my budget and take too long to get. All I have now is Gamma-2 ---Toslink Optical---Denon AVR-589 receiver. I'm wondering how they will sound 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Have anyone ever tried LCD-2 w/ a cheapo receiver headphone out?


----------



## Solude

I've been gone a long time =)  In 06 we spent ~$400 on cans and $1000s on amps, sources 
   
  Your best bet is to listen for a good long time with your current gear then make a priority/change list.  Need to know where you are and where you want to go, no?


----------



## tunarat

Not a receiver, but the Micro Tube with the Mini Watt adapter drives them just fine. Didn't listen for a long time with them, but what I did hear sounded good, better than the Mini with the LCD-2's. I'm thinking about it till I can make the next step up. Not familiar with the 6GV8 tube, so don't know about the rolling options.


----------



## wower

I searched the thread for the Yamamoto HA-02 and nothing. I don't suppose anyone's plugged the LCD2 into one yet? It's transformered couple so while not a heavy weight by head-fi standards, I don't think it will wilt with the lcd2 is plugged in. It will be a nice looking combo that is for sure.


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





wower said:


> I searched the thread for the Yamamoto HA-02 and nothing. I don't suppose anyone's plugged the LCD2 into one yet? It's transformered couple so while not a heavy weight by head-fi standards, I don't think it will wilt with the lcd2 is plugged in. It will be a nice looking combo that is for sure.


 

 I could be wrong, but I suspect it won't be able to drive the LCD2s to reference levels without running out of power - overhead will be limited if the threshold isn't already crossed.


----------



## Currawong

Quote: 





wower said:


> I searched the thread for the Yamamoto HA-02 and nothing. I don't suppose anyone's plugged the LCD2 into one yet? It's transformered couple so while not a heavy weight by head-fi standards, I don't think it will wilt with the lcd2 is plugged in. It will be a nice looking combo that is for sure.


 

*Maximum output :300mW (at the time of 50ohm load) of headphone terminals*
   
  I might see if my friend still has his. He said he was selling it.  I agree that I'd go for something with more power output than that for good measure.  I need to find that post someone made where they explain power output and headphone SPL, or maybe someone will chime in with that info again.


----------



## Seamaster

Quote: 





wower said:


> I searched the thread for the Yamamoto HA-02 and nothing. I don't suppose anyone's plugged the LCD2 into one yet?


 
  Yamamoto HA-02 knwon for thick sounding, That may not be a good combo IMHO.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





tunarat said:


> Not a receiver, but the Micro Tube with the Mini Watt adapter drives them just fine. Didn't listen for a long time with them, but what I did hear sounded good, better than the Mini with the LCD-2's. I'm thinking about it till I can make the next step up. Not familiar with the 6GV8 tube, so don't know about the rolling options.


 
  Good call man.  I'm amazed at the quality sonics from both the 6GV8 micro and the MiniWatt amps with the headphone adapter.  They almost qualify for giant killers.


----------



## sachu

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> Good call man.  I'm amazed at the quality sonics from both the 6GV8 micro and the MiniWatt amps with the headphone adapter.  They almost qualify for giant killers.


 
  I heard that amp..and its decent..it lacks refinement from what i heard with the LCD-2 at least.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





sachu said:


> I heard that amp..and its decent..it lacks refinement from what i heard with the LCD-2 at least.


 
  Lacks refinement?  What do you want for $250.00?


----------



## sachu

umm i wasn't making a reference to its price, i didn't even know its price btw..just about what i heard briefly. I already said its decent. Its alright for a stop gap measure.


----------



## oqvist

GHP is a nice budget alternative to the V200 and Concerto. As good or better then the V200 depending on personal taste at close to half the price.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> Lacks refinement?  What do you want for $250.00?


 

 So what's the better deal, the micro/miniwatts or the Schiit Asgard for $250?


----------



## ztsen

Hi Rob, finally you got your new toy. It looks beautiful!
   
  Do you change the volume control knob to white? It seems different from the gold knob picture in the Decware website.
  The white knob really look like my old fan speed control knob or the oven. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
  Quote: 





skylab said:


> Glamor shot:


----------



## Frihed89

After a trans-Atlantic journey and back, I finally have been able to mate my Blue Circle SBH + custom capacitor pack with the LCD-2s.  I still have the stock cable.  I am waiting on some parts to try and turn a 11 foot run of AN-Vx IC cable into a proper headphone cable. The SBH + cap pack received an underwhelming review from Skylab; however, my experience has been different...perhaps due to my hearing problems, perhaps due to the fact that my unit is not stock, who knows. Anyway, I am more than satisfied.  The only memory I have of the LCD-2s is a year old, using a ZDT at RMAF, but what I hear now is just as pleasing, if not more so.  The SBH excels in being quiet, transparent and detailed.  The ZDT has somewhat more finesse. All of the characteristics of the SBH are magnified with the LCD-2s.  I'm not sure I have heard anything like it. It reminds me of my virgin experience with a high-end head amp and headphones (at the time): I had nothing to compare the sound to and my response, then, was "astonishment" leading to addiction.  Now, to quote Yogi Berra, "It's deja vu all over again".   I feel like a fly in Carnegie hall, listening to Yo-Yo Ma play the Bach Unaccompanied Cello Suites.  Can flies hear?  Anyway, you get the picture: very immediate, very involving, the notes are crystal clear and precise, the silence between them deafening.  It's almost too much.  Skylab will know what I mean.
   
  Are there any Hat-Peed-Thingee owners out there?  I know, the HPT is a piece of PVC pipe packed with silicone and opamps, but if you have one of these and a pair of LCD-2s handy-bye, have a listen.  I suspect you will be surprised. I'm definitely NOT pushing the HPT, but I am curious.


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





ztsen said:


> Hi Rob, finally you got your new toy. It looks beautiful!
> 
> Do you change the volume control knob to white? It seems different from the gold knob picture in the Decware website.
> The white knob really look like my old fan speed control knob or the oven.


 

 Yeah the knobs are cheesy.  I could replace them with almost anything, though.  Thinking of looking for a broken vintage amp with some cool knobs that I can get cheap 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  The sound, though, with planar headphones, is absolutely terrific.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





grokit said:


> So what's the better deal, the micro/miniwatts or the Schiit Asgard for $250?


 

 I'm personally torn for a couple reasons.  I believe the Asgard is more refined in every way, is all class A FET, but it's use is confined to that of a headphone amp alone.  Another upside is that it is designed and built in the US, which is a big positive to me personally.
   
  The Micro and Miniwatt amps are full fledged amplifiers and can be used to drive speakers.  They do a bang up job at it too.  They are not particularly sophisticated/refined designs, as Sachu mentioned, but in the final analysis, they work amazingly well as speaker and headphone amps.  They are both transformer coupled so frequency response at the extreme ends of the spectrum have limitations.
   
  As a headphone amp for the LCD-2, I would take the Asgard.  As an amp that can do double duty on the computer desktop, I'd go with the Miniwatt or Microamp.  A plus is that you can roll the tubes.


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> I'm personally torn for a couple reasons.  I believe the Asgard is more refined in every way, is all class A FET, but it's use is confined to that of a headphone amp alone.  Another upside is that it is designed and built in the US, which is a big positive to me personally.
> 
> The Micro and Miniwatt amps are full fledged amplifiers and can be used to drive speakers.  They do a bang up job at it too.  They are not particularly sophisticated/refined designs, as Sachu mentioned, but in the final analysis, they work amazingly well as speaker and headphone amps.  They are both transformer coupled so frequency response at the extreme ends of the spectrum have limitations.
> 
> As a headphone amp for the LCD-2, I would take the Asgard.  As an amp that can do double duty on the computer desktop, I'd go with the Miniwatt or Microamp.  A plus is that you can roll the tubes.


 

 What is the power output of the Asgard another amp that is peaking my interest and has very little support here is the PSA audio amp which can be had cheap and put out 1.7 watts. I have not heard it but Paul is a foremost an amp designer


----------



## wower

Thanks for the info on the Yammy. I know it will be slightly strain power wise and I might have to turn it up higher because of the LCD2s sensitivity. The low and high ends have always been a bit shy but the mids have always been great and smooth and lively. (string quartets and quinets etc. are magic.) The Yammy is just a stop gap until I upgrade the amp on my main rig and move the yammy to my secondary office rig. Everyone seems to be saying the DNA audio (balanced) stuff will be under power too but I really like that amp. I'm just really attracted to naturalistic tone and timber reproduction so even if the Yammy strains the LCD2 I think I can be happy.


----------



## Haidar

This amp even has a USB input.  I wonder how it would do with the LCD-2
   

   

 *Amplifier*
 *Ayon Orion *
  Class of Operation
  Pentode or Triode
  Tube Complement
  4 x KT88 
  Load Impedance
  4 & 8 Ohms
  Bandwidth
  15Hz-50kHz
  Output Power
  Pentode 2 x 50 / Triode 2 x 30W
  Nominal voltage gain
  40dB
  Frequency Response
  27 Hz – 40 kHz/  +/- 0.5 dB
  Input sensitivity for full power
  1V
  Input Impedance at 1 kHz
  100K Ohm
  Peak Output Power
  2 x 65 Watt
  S/N ratio at full power
    Nominal voltage gain
  40dB
  Frequency Response
  27 Hz - 40 kHz/ +/- 0.5 dB
  Input sensitivity for full power
  1 V
  Input Impedance at 1 kHz
  100K Ohm
  S/N ratio at full power
  80 dB
  Hum
  0,003 V
  NFB
  0dB
  Volume Control
  Potentiometer
  Remote Volume Control
  Yes
  Headphone
  Yes
  Inputs
  3 x Line (RCA) 1 x USB
  Output
  1 x Pre out
  Dimensions (WxDxH) cm
  46x34x26 cm
  Weight
  28 kg
  Shipping weight
  33 kg

   

 Full-featured vacuum tube stereo integrated amplifier
 Switch able between pentode and triode mode
 4 x KT88 power output tubes
 Timer warm up circuit for all tubes, extends tube life
 Automatic power tube protection circuit system 
 High current filament-regulator for pre and driver tubes
 Choke filtered power supply
 0dB negative feedback
 Gold-plated industrial PCB
 Power transformer is encased, excellent damped and RFI/EMI shielded
 High performance output transformer
 All transformers are sealed with an anti-resonance compound material
 Selected, premium quality passive components used in all applications
 High speed capacitors
 DC-Power filter
 MKP capacitors
 Custom made ceramic tube sockets with beryllium spring pins
 Shortest possible signal paths
 Central one-point star earth grounding
 External static bias adjustment – rear panel
 Cupper matrix - internal signal cable
 Fully hand assembled to insure the highest level of craftsmanship
 Alu-brushed anodized anti-vibration-resonance and non-magnetic chassis
 3 Line inputs
 1 USB input
 1 Pre out
 1 Headphone
 AC phase polarity control indicator
 Gold-plated heavy duty binding posts and input jacks
 All front & top panel descriptions are engraved
 Metal remote commander
 Chassis finish: black / black
   
  http://www.ayonaudio.com/products/amplifier/integrated-amplifier/orion.html


----------



## TigzStudio

Quote: 





haidar said:


> This amp even has a USB input.  I wonder how it would do with the LCD-2


 
   
  Looks nice, too bad it is a bit pricey at $3,000.  But it does look like it may be worth the $$ considering its use as a speaker amp as well.  Some favorable reviews on it out there as well.


----------



## Frihed89

I think I may have done Rob a dis-service regarding his review of the SBH.  When I looked back I saw that it was the Cap-Pack that Rob wasn't entirely satisfied with.  He didn't hear any improvement, while I do.  That's the only difference.  Rob has written good things about the the SBH.  Sorry.
  
  Quote: 





frihed89 said:


> After a trans-Atlantic journey and back, I finally have been able to mate my Blue Circle SBH + custom capacitor pack with the LCD-2s.  I still have the stock cable.  I am waiting on some parts to try and turn a 11 foot run of AN-Vx IC cable into a proper headphone cable. The SBH + cap pack received an underwhelming review from Skylab; however, my experience has been different...perhaps due to my hearing problems, perhaps due to the fact that my unit is not stock, who knows. Anyway, I am more than satisfied.  The only memory I have of the LCD-2s is a year old, using a ZDT at RMAF, but what I hear now is just as pleasing, if not more so.  The SBH excels in being quiet, transparent and detailed.  The ZDT has somewhat more finesse. All of the characteristics of the SBH are magnified with the LCD-2s.  I'm not sure I have heard anything like it. It reminds me of my virgin experience with a high-end head amp and headphones (at the time): I had nothing to compare the sound to and my response, then, was "astonishment" leading to addiction.  Now, to quote Yogi Berra, "It's deja vu all over again".   I feel like a fly in Carnegie hall, listening to Yo-Yo Ma play the Bach preludes.  Can flies hear?  Anyway, you get the picture: very immediate, very involving, the notes are crystal clear and precise, the silence between them deafening.  It's almost too much.  Skylab will know what I mean.
> 
> Are there any Hat-Peed-Thingee owners out there?  I know, the HPT is a piece of PVC pipe packed with silicone and opamps, but if you have one of these and a pair of LCD-2s handy-bye, have a listen.  I suspect you will be surprised. I'm definitely NOT pushing the HPT, but I am curious.


----------



## TigzStudio

Well, I just sent payment for the Antelope Audio Zodiac+ model....it has built in headamp, I will report their sound hopefully next week with LCD-2's.  Look for a review and comparison DAC wise in the dedicated source forum sometime later.  I have my backlog of reviews to get out as it is lol.


----------



## Frihed89

Re: The Orion.  I listened to this unit in Copenhagen at our local Audio Show.  I don't think it's the last word in Pentode power amps, with a Triode setting. PP triode amps are relatively rare and the best run in Class A, which this does not (although it is A/B).  I have seen references to it being pure class A, but it can't be with such high power output.  The dealer didn't know how far into Class A, it ran before switching to Class B.  I also listened to the headphone section.  It wasn't bad, but it can't match the Lieben that Rob raves about, or the ZDT, which I have heard with the LCD-2's.  It's a pity that more integrated mfrs. can't get the headphone section right, but realistically most integrateds don't have much of a preamp to begin with.  Blue Circle, I have hunch, would be different if you asked Gilbert Yeung to add a headphone to one of his newer SS integrateds.  BC does a lot of custom work on their commercial offerings, by personal request.


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





frihed89 said:


> Re: The Orion.  I listened to this unit in Copenhagen at our local Audio Show.  I don't think it's the last word in Pentode power amps, with a Triode setting. PP triode amps are relatively rare and the best run in Class A, which this does not (although it is A/B).  I have seen references to it being pure class A, but it can't be with such high power output.  The dealer didn't know how far into Class A, it ran before switching to Class B.  I also listened to the headphone section.  It wasn't bad, but it can't match the Lieben that Rob raves about, or the ZDT, which I have heard with the LCD-2's.  It's a pity that more integrated mfrs. can't get the headphone section right, but realistically most integrateds don't have much of a preamp to begin with.  Blue Circle, I have hunch, would be different if you asked Gilbert Yeung to add a headphone to one of his newer SS integrateds.  BC does a lot of custom work on their commercial offerings, by personal request.


 

 I'm betting you could probably find the actual Chinese amp that this is based on for under 1k.  My speaker amp is of similar KT88 design but without the headout (rebadged Vincent TAC) - definitely class AB with that rated power - exactly like my one 2X55 pentode.
   
The Cayin HA1A tube amp I'm using for the LCD2 has performed admirably - exquisite treble extension with superb subbass extension (not lacking in both extremes when compared to solid state - more subbass than BCL) - Ultralinear mode (forward/neutral) and Triode mode (laid back/warm - treble still exquisitley extended - so not dark).  Pure class A single ended design with speaker outputs for 2.2wats UL and 1.2w triode.  More detailed and refined than both my other hybrid amps (Xcan and Vincent).  This amp must have very good output transformers (4 position impedance selector) - its definitely a class above the MingDa in all areas.  Later tonight I'm gonna finally order some tubes (the Cayin came with Electroharmonix - I can see the label through the window) - should be fun to tube roll.  TTVJ sells this amp at the 800 buck mark.


----------



## Frihed89

I think you are right about the Orion.  I wasn't considering buying one, just passing on my experience to a recent poster.  I have some DIY KT88 triode monos that operate in pure Class A @ about 12W RMS, but no relationship to headphones.  That said, I don't know much about rolling this tube, because I have never owned an EL-84 amp.  I am a 12AX7 aficionado. I think the Siemens triple mica  tubes are nice, also the Telefunken smooth plates, and any of the the 1950s US-made black plates.  The brief offering by Micro-tech solutions was also brilliant, but their stock appears to be tied up in court, following bankruptcy.  I find the best current production tube to be the Sovtek 12AX7 LPS tube, or their 5751 where it works as a good sub. Try them, even if you are looking for NOS. You will be surprised. The old American made triple mica 5814s (GE/RCA) are a pretty nice 12AU7.
   
  I'm a little wary of Cayin, for all the usual reasons. Chinese iron is generally not that hot; some time the circuits they copy are not correctly done, and so on. But I really like the EL-84 output tube it employs.  I haven't heard an EL-84 amp I didn't like.  You are right about the need for good OPTs, although I can't comment on the Cayin's, beyond my aversion to Chinese iron  The specs for the OPTs used in high-end headphone amps don't get much attention and some of the mfrs I have contacted won't reveal too much. Donald North is an exception and his OPT is a key to the performance of his Sonnet.  I am very keen on Audio Note (UK) double C cores and, at a lower price pont, the Lindahl OPTs with amorphous cores.  Trafo-matic has some double C-cores that look interesting and are priced about the same as the Lindahls, but I have never heard them, as they are new. I will.
  
  Quote: 





sp wild said:


> I'm betting you could probably find the actual Chinese amp that this is based on for under 1k.  My speaker amp is of similar KT88 design but without the headout (rebadged Vincent TAC) - definitely class AB with that rated power - exactly like my one 2X55 pentode.
> 
> The Cayin HA1A tube amp I'm using for the LCD2 has performed admirably - exquisite treble extension with superb subbass extension (not lacking in both extremes when compared to solid state - more subbass than BCL) - Ultralinear mode (forward/neutral) and Triode mode (laid back/warm - treble still exquisitley extended - so not dark).  Pure class A single ended design with speaker outputs for 2.2wats UL and 1.2w triode.  More detailed and refined than both my other hybrid amps (Xcan and Vincent).  This amp must have very good output transformers (4 position impedance selector) - its definitely a class above the MingDa in all areas.  Later tonight I'm gonna finally order some tubes (the Cayin came with Electroharmonix - I can see the label through the window) - should be fun to tube roll.  TTVJ sells this amp at the 800 buck mark.


----------



## Henerenry

Hmmm skylab, that decware looks like absolute horn. Have you tried it with any of your other dynamic phones?
   
  I'm thinking it would be great with my hd800


----------



## Skylab

The Mini-Torii really isn't ideal for high-impedance headphones, according to Steve Deckert.  Plenty of power, no issue there, but there would be a bass roll-off as the impedance gets really high.  The output transformers are wound with a lower impedance in mind, as the Mini-Torii is a speaker amp adapted for headphone use.  So while it's absolutely killer with low-sensitivity, medium-to-low impedance headphones like the planar/orthos, it's less than ideal for some others. 
   
  This is THE amp I will use for my HE-6, when they become available.


----------



## Henerenry

hmmm, so they should be ideal with the 701s for example, haha.
   
  Interested to hear your thoughts of the t1 in them, or possibly the hd800 is you can find one.


----------



## Skylab

I actually thought the T1 sounded pretty good with the Mini-Torri, but Steve was surprised by this.  He didn't think the bass would be very good.  I did not spend much time with that combo, so I will have to try it again and see how much roll-off there really is.


----------



## ztsen

Is the Leben still most prefer for LCD2 or the mini-torri more now?
  
  Quote: 





skylab said:


> I actually thought the T1 sounded pretty good with the Mini-Torri, but Steve was surprised by this.  He didn't think the bass would be very good.  I did not spend much time with that combo, so I will have to try it again and see how much roll-off there really is.


----------



## Skylab

I still prefer the Leben, but the Mini-Torri is very close, and for less money.  The Leben is nicer looking (IMO) and has more features, and more power for speakers.  The Decware is made in the USA and is 1/3 the price of the "US" 120V Version of the Leben, and is very nearly as good sounding with the LCD-2 as the Leben.


----------



## Nigel Goddard

Thanks vm Skylab for the immense time you must put in comparing equipment and then writing about it.
  
  I've decided to jump back into headphone listening after a 35-year break (since Koss ESP6 at university!),
  and had thought it was to be something like an O2+BHSE after a rather disappointing HD800 dem.
   
  Like so many folk here, I'm drawn to the LCD-2, assuming I can decide on the amp. 
  On speakers, I've never used tubes, preferring top SS such as Linn Klimax in _active_ configurations.
   
  In terms of driving an LCD-2, I see... 
  your top choice is still the Leben which has a decently protective box, but which I find ugly (!) ;
  your second is now the exposed Decware Mini Torii SE/X??? (which tubes did you finally settle on?)
  my main query is: in your opinion, how far is the Mini Torii ahead of the Meier Concerto, in what areas?
   
  Can the Mini Torii shoot more current into the hungry LCD-2 than the Concerto's 500mA ?
  I guess the Leben wins on this front also - tho I feel I'm leaning toward the Decware or Meier. 
  Excuse my ignorance, but can the Meier be Op-amp-rolled? - noting the socketed AD797...
   
  Finally for now, can any helpful reader comment on the difference between the
  Meier Concerto and Goldpoint Headphone Pro??? - All seemingly amazing in their price brackets.
   
  Again, many thanks indeed. 
 Nigel


----------



## TigzStudio

I wouldn't skip over the Violectrics, I find it one of the best solid states I've heard.  If your looking to "enjoy the musc and tap your feet" without over analyzing things at every listen, definitely take a look at them as well. Paired with the LCD-2's they have quite a synergy, I feel no need to purchase any more amps after the V181....apart from actually trying out the famed Leben one day.    
  Quote: 





nigel goddard said:


> Thanks vm Skylab for the immense time you must put in comparing equipment and then writing about it.
> 
> I've decided to jump back into headphone listening after a 35-year break (since Koss ESP6 at university!),
> and had thought it was to be something like an O2+BHSE after a rather disappointing HD800 dem.
> ...


----------



## emelius

i'm not having any troubles thus far with my black Gilmore Lite w/DPS....i'm just using my computer as a source for breakin' 'em in...then i plan to switch to a Meridian...i'm anxious to try them with my Portal Panache...i think that combo's really gonna work...maybe tomorrow...


----------



## oqvist

Still getting better synergy with the GHP and Head One over the V200/Auditor here. Really like this combo.


----------



## TigzStudio

Go borrow a v181 and compare it to the GHP for me   Why is it that he doesn't have the links on his site to the GHP?
  
  Quote: 





oqvist said:


> Still getting better synergy with the GHP and Head One over the V200/Auditor here. Really like this combo.


----------



## oqvist

Quote: 





tigzstudio said:


> Go borrow a v181 and compare it to the GHP for me   Why is it that he doesn't have the links on his site to the GHP?


 

 Goldpoint Headphone Pro? It´s in the top of the home page in the middle


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





nigel goddard said:


> Thanks vm Skylab for the immense time you must put in comparing equipment and then writing about it.
> 
> I've decided to jump back into headphone listening after a 35-year break (since Koss ESP6 at university!),
> and had thought it was to be something like an O2+BHSE after a rather disappointing HD800 dem.
> ...


 

  
  Thanks for the kind words. I'm still pretty new to the Decware Mini-Torii, and so I'm not ready to do in-depth comparisons between it and the Meier Concerto, and they are different fish anyway.  (I don't think you can op-amp roll the Concerto, but I am not certain).
   
  The Mini-torii has a lot of power on tap - and it's a tube amp designed for loads like the LCD-2.  The pairing is quite synergistic.  However, an amp like the Concerto will drive a wider variety of headphones well, and is half the price of the Mini-torii - strong considerations there!  I really think of the WooAudio WA6 as being the tube equivalent to the Concerto for driving the LCD-2 - same price range, and works with a very wide variety of cans.  The Mini-Torii is a very fine amp, but it's a speaker-amp adapted for use with a certain kind of headphone.
   
  Lastly, I have to comment that I simply cannot imagine finding the Leben ugly 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Cheers.


----------



## vilasn

TigzStudio,
   
  What's your recommendation between A-GD Roc and V181?
   
  Thanks.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Thanks for the kind words. I'm still pretty new to the Decware Mini-Torii, and so I'm not ready to do in-depth comparisons between it and the Meier Concerto, and they are different fish anyway.  (I don't think you can op-amp roll the Concerto, but I am not certain).
> 
> The Mini-torii has a lot of power on tap - and it's a tube amp designed for loads like the LCD-2.  The pairing is quite synergistic.  However, an amp like the Concerto will drive a wider variety of headphones well, and is half the price of the Mini-torii - strong considerations there!  I really think of the WooAudio WA6 as being the tube equivalent to the Concerto for driving the LCD-2 - same price range, and works with a very wide variety of cans.  The Mini-Torii is a very fine amp, but it's a speaker-amp adapted for use with a certain kind of headphone.
> 
> ...


 
  Just a brief comment regarding amps in the class of the Concerto...
   
  Real uncompressed music is far more dynamic than most people realize.  While half a watt is far more than one needs for steady state listening, it is easy to exceed even that power level on dynamic peaks, if one truly wants a "you are there" experience.  Amps used with the LCD-2 should be able to deliver at least a solid 2 Watts on those peaks if you truly want to experience that sense of effortless ease and expansiveness in your music.
   
  Many people who listen to the LCD-2s on amps like a stock WA6, hear what they misinterpret as sibilance or other very minor transient distortions, and are actually hearing the amp clip, and not at exceedingly high levels either.  Of course YMMV, but that's been my experience and my 2¢ worth.


----------



## vilasn

TigzStudio,
   
  Are you using A-GD Ref5 with V181?
   
  Thanks.


----------



## TigzStudio

Yep, but I also have an Antelope Audio Zodiac+ incoming....will be interesting to see which sounds better to my ears.  The Zodiac+ has been compared to some Weiss dacs, some people saying they preffered it over them.  Another guy preffered it over the w4s dac2.  We shall see, the 6moons review is taking forever to be written up as well.  
  
  Quote: 





vilasn said:


> TigzStudio,
> 
> Are you using A-GD Ref5 with V181?
> 
> Thanks.


----------



## Solude

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> Just a brief comment regarding amps in the class of the Concerto...
> Real uncompressed music is far more dynamic than most people realize


 

   This depends a lot on the type of music you listen to.  Modern recordings of rock, metal, alternative have next to no dynamic range.  They are recorded as a wall of sound so an average of 80dB translate into peaks of 86dB at the most.  When I had the Concerto, with the HE-5LE, I used low gain and listened at ~11 o'clock.  Now the LCD-2 gets to 90dB with 120mV, nowhere near the cap of the WA6 or Concerto.


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> Just a brief comment regarding amps in the class of the Concerto...
> 
> Real uncompressed music is far more dynamic than most people realize.  While half a watt is far more than one needs for steady state listening, it is easy to exceed even that power level on dynamic peaks, if one truly wants a "you are there" experience.  Amps used with the LCD-2 should be able to deliver at least a solid 2 Watts on those peaks if you truly want to experience that sense of effortless ease and expansiveness in your music.
> 
> Many people who listen to the LCD-2s on amps like a stock WA6, hear what they misinterpret as sibilance or other very minor transient distortions, and are actually hearing the amp clip, and not at exceedingly high levels either.  Of course YMMV, but that's been my experience and my 2¢ worth.


 

 So which would be the perfect amp then in your opinion. PS Audio amp puts out 1.7W


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





solude said:


> This depends a lot on the type of music you listen to.  Modern recordings of rock, metal, alternative have next to no dynamic range.  They are recorded as a wall of sound so an average of 80dB translate into peaks of 86dB at the most.  When I had the Concerto, with the HE-5LE, I used low gain and listened at ~11 o'clock.  Now the LCD-2 gets to 90dB with 120mV, nowhere near the cap of the WA6 or Concerto.


 
  As long as that works for you!


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> Just a brief comment regarding amps in the class of the Concerto...
> 
> Real uncompressed music is far more dynamic than most people realize.  While half a watt is far more than one needs for steady state listening, it is easy to exceed even that power level on dynamic peaks, if one truly wants a "you are there" experience.  Amps used with the LCD-2 should be able to deliver at least a solid 2 Watts on those peaks if you truly want to experience that sense of effortless ease and expansiveness in your music.
> 
> Many people who listen to the LCD-2s on amps like a stock WA6, hear what they misinterpret as sibilance or other very minor transient distortions, and are actually hearing the amp clip, and not at exceedingly high levels either.  Of course YMMV, but that's been my experience and my 2¢ worth.


 

 Indeed, that may be the reason that the Leben and the Mini-torii sound better to me with the LCD-2.  Lots and lots of power.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





frank i said:


> So which would be the perfect amp then in your opinion. PS Audio amp puts out 1.7W


 
  I don't know that I've settled on the "perfect" amp yet.  Still looking.  Like the Cavali Liquids so far...


----------



## vilasn

Quote: 





tigzstudio said:


> Yep, but I also have an Antelope Audio Zodiac+ incoming....will be interesting to see which sounds better to my ears.  The Zodiac+ has been compared to some Weiss dacs, some people saying they preffered it over them.  Another guy preffered it over the w4s dac2.  We shall see, the 6moons review is taking forever to be written up as well.


 

 Hey,
   
  Another question, which do you recommend A-GD Roc or V181?
   
  Thanks.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> Many people who listen to the LCD-2s on amps like a stock WA6, hear what they misinterpret as sibilance or other very minor transient distortions, and are actually hearing the amp clip, and not at exceedingly high levels either.  Of course YMMV, but that's been my experience and my 2¢ worth.


 

 I agree and would say that the complaints of sibilance with the original HE-5 could be attributed to the same factor, as the HE-5 is even harder to drive properly than the LCD2.


----------



## TigzStudio

With the LCD-2's and my Ref5 I chose the v181 over the Roc.  The Roc is still excellent as you can tweak the bias settings to your liking....I basically tweaked it to get the most natural vocals and instruments I could.   For some reason the v181 was able to give me that "magic", where you can listen forever without analyzing every single song.  Some people might think this leads to a belief that the v181 is imparting some kind of signature to everything, but I don't really feel this way.  I can immediately tell the exact recording quality of everything I listen to, yet, the crappy stuff still has that bit of music magic to enjoy it.  Everything just sounds so real and lifelike, you still hear all the nuance and detail as well.  It has a dead quiet background, you will hear every last decay in the recording.  All my impressions are based from _balanced acss ref5->Roc->4-pin balanced lcd-2s vs_._ balanced xlr->v181->4-pin balanced lcd-2s_.  One other amp I am interested in hearing is the Goldpoint Headphone Pro, supposed to sound "like reality" w/lcd-2's according to a head-fier.  I was going to order it to compare to the v181, but I went for a different source to play with first.  I am completely satisfied with my v181.  
   


vilasn said:


> Hey,
> 
> Another question, which do you recommend A-GD Roc or V181?
> 
> Thanks.


----------



## Bojamijams

Well another big difference is that you're also comparing ACSS to XLR with your setup.  You should try XLR Roc vs XLR v181 for a true comparison.  ACSS is more 'neutral' then XLR.
  
  Quote: 





tigzstudio said:


> With the LCD-2's and my Ref5 I chose the v181 over the Roc.  The Roc is still excellent as you can tweak the bias settings to your liking....I basically tweaked it to get the most natural vocals and instruments I could.   For some reason the v181 was able to give me that "magic", where you can listen forever without analyzing every single song.  Some people might think this leads to a belief that the v181 is imparting some kind of signature to everything, but I don't really feel this way.  I can immediately tell the exact recording quality of everything I listen to, yet, the crappy stuff still has that bit of music magic to enjoy it.  Everything just sounds so real and lifelike, you still hear all the nuance and detail as well.  It has a dead quiet background, you will hear every last decay in the recording.  All my impressions are based from _balanced acss ref5->Roc->4-pin balanced lcd-2s vs_._ balanced xlr->v181->4-pin balanced lcd-2s_.  One other amp I am interested in hearing is the Goldpoint Headphone Pro, supposed to sound "like reality" w/lcd-2's according to a head-fier.  I was going to order it to compare to the v181, but I went for a different source to play with first.  I am completely satisfied with my v181.


----------



## Nigel Goddard

Quote:


skylab said:


> Well...of the amps I own, the best was the Leben CS300X.  The Leben and the LCD-2 together are HEAVENLY.
> Next best was the Meier Concerto - which was also excellent with the LCD-2 (and is solid state, unlike the Leben...and also 1/4 the price of the Leben...)


 
  Quote:


skylab said:


> Indeed, that may be the reason that the Leben and the Mini-torii sound better to me with the LCD-2.  Lots and lots of power.


 
   
  Sorry to dwell on this, Skylab, but could you please express the way(s) in which the Mini Torii has displaced the Concerto for second place?
   
  Would you say it's a tube vs SS presentation thing - where, blindfolded, one could identify which is which?
  Would you say one's more truthful, or more tasteful? - I can see why head-fiers have such large inventories!
   
  Perhaps I should just ask Mr Hyodo for a silver faceplate 
   
  Many thanks in advance, to you all.
  Nigel


----------



## dallan

Quote: 





tigzstudio said:


> I am completely satisfied with my v181.


 

 Glad that you are enjoying the v181 but I am a bit confused.  Unless you are stuck on balanced systems, why did you get the V181 which is based on a lower model(v100) instead of the reference model V200?  I read earlier in this thread that the LCD2 is more dependent on the actual amp than whether or not that it is balanced.  Many people who ordered the V100 upgraded because of the significant difference between models.  In addition, I have heard that there is a V200 balanced model that will eventually(key word) be released too.  
   
  Violectric did surprise me and i understand from your posts that  the v181 is a good amp as well.  The only reason i bring it up is because I was going to get the v100 originally and did extensive research on it.  The specs put the two amps(100/200) close but the actual sound difference is supposed to be dramatic.  When i saw the v181 considered it until i found out that it was just a balanced version of the lower tier amp that I had just decided against.
   
  When i saw you got this i bit my tongue but maybe i missed something and there was an upgrade in the v181 or you just really wanted balance, which is good too.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  If i go balanced I intend on doing the Violectric route with the next release, i really love the sound signature- not as stark as my Zana Duex with higher impedance phones but more tolerable and sweet, some would call it more musical and it works well with all headphones.


----------



## grokit

Once you go balanced you never go back lol


----------



## sachu

^^ **facepalm**
   
  Will never understand this craze with going balanced.


----------



## Shahrose

Quote: 





dallan said:


> Glad that you are enjoying the v181 but I am a bit confused.  Unless you are stuck on balanced systems, why did you get the V181 which is based on a lower model(v100) instead of the reference model V200?  I read earlier in this thread that the LCD2 is more dependent on the actual amp than whether or not that it is balanced.  Many people who ordered the V100 upgraded because of the significant difference between models.  In addition, I have heard that there is a V200 balanced model that will eventually(key word) be released too.
> 
> Violectric did surprise me and i understand from your posts that  the v181 is a good amp as well.  The only reason i bring it up is because I was going to get the v100 originally and did extensive research on it.  The specs put the two amps(100/200) close but the actual sound difference is supposed to be dramatic.  When i saw the v181 considered it until i found out that it was just a balanced version of the lower tier amp that I had just decided against.
> 
> ...


 

 Just to add my thoughts into the mix. I owned the V100 and though it was a decent amp, it was clearly inferior to the M^3+Sigma-11 and the GS-1. I thought it played at around the same level as the Sheer Audio HA-006++, which BTW, can be had for only $450.


----------



## TigzStudio

To be honest there was very little difference between XLR and ACSS....and to my ears ACSS was the winner by a very small fraction....but I can't say it was the winner with absolute confidence.  
  
  Quote: 





bojamijams said:


> Well another big difference is that you're also comparing ACSS to XLR with your setup.  You should try XLR Roc vs XLR v181 for a true comparison.  ACSS is more 'neutral' then XLR.


----------



## TigzStudio

I was kinda hooked on the 4-pin ouput + the two 1/4"er's (better functionally for my setup, I use the dual 1/4" to output balanced to some active studio monitors when not using headphones).  The balanced thing I am kinda meh about....basically you just get louder volume vs. SE.  I only briefly listened to the v181 single ended before switching it to balanced mode, sounded great that way too.  The v181 has a better/bigger power supply inside vs. the v100, not sure on other design factors, you would have to ask Freid (the designer).  All I do know is I love my v181 and hear no faults in my current rig with it (to my ears).  
   
  Seems like I am the only guy that owns a v181   If you are just looking for SE outputs the v200 is only $100.00 more I think? or maybe more not sure.  So that is probably a good option for you.  I would love to compare a v200 to a v181 some day, I will probably try the v282 when it comes out next year for sure.  
  
  Quote: 





dallan said:


> Glad that you are enjoying the v181 but I am a bit confused.  Unless you are stuck on balanced systems, why did you get the V181 which is based on a lower model(v100) instead of the reference model V200?  I read earlier in this thread that the LCD2 is more dependent on the actual amp than whether or not that it is balanced.  Many people who ordered the V100 upgraded because of the significant difference between models.  In addition, I have heard that there is a V200 balanced model that will eventually(key word) be released too.
> 
> Violectric did surprise me and i understand from your posts that  the v181 is a good amp as well.  The only reason i bring it up is because I was going to get the v100 originally and did extensive research on it.  The specs put the two amps(100/200) close but the actual sound difference is supposed to be dramatic.  When i saw the v181 considered it until i found out that it was just a balanced version of the lower tier amp that I had just decided against.
> 
> ...


----------



## Skylab

nigel goddard said:


> Quote:
> Quote:
> 
> Sorry to dwell on this, Skylab, but could you please express the way(s) in which the Mini Torii has displaced the Concerto for second place?
> ...






 Via the mini-torii, the LCD-2 seem to have a greater sense of ease with dynamics. And the 6V6 tubes the m-t uses do have a bit of tube magic in the midrange that is hard not to like.


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





shahrose said:


> Just to add my thoughts into the mix. I owned the V100 and though it was a decent amp, it was clearly inferior to the M^3+Sigma-11 and the GS-1. I thought it played at around the same level as the Sheer Audio HA-006++, which BTW, can be had for only $450.


 

The V181 must be two whole leagues ahead of the V100 according to this review.  He preferred the V181 over GS1 and HA006++ and specifically praised it as a giant killer.


----------



## dallan

Quote: 





tigzstudio said:


> So that is probably a good option for you.  I would love to compare a v200 to a v181 some day, I will probably try the v282 when it comes out next year for sure.


 
  I have the v200 after reviewing the v100 and knowing that the v181 is based on the v100.  Already did it.  You can try mine but you are a five hour drive away.....sorry


----------



## Shahrose

Quote: 





sp wild said:


> The V181 must be two whole leagues ahead of the V100 according to this review.  He preferred the V181 over GS1 and HA006++ and specifically praised it as a giant killer.


 

 My assessment of amps is based mainly on transparency/accuracy, neutrality, and resolution. In these areas, the 2 amps I mentioned significantly outclass the Violectric. That reviewer probably likes his sound to be warmed and smoothed by the amp. I don't. Nothing wrong with either preference, but it's important to be aware of such things.
   
  I seriously doubt the V181 sounds that much different from the V100, if at all. It's just a balanced version of the same amp. WRT the GS-1, the reviewer doesn't explain the difference between it and the V100. (I also have a DACT attenuator on mine, not sure if he does). The GS-1 (and M^3) changed a lot when I switched DACs/transports, but the HA-006++ and V100 coloured the sound to the point that little difference could be distinguished among sources. Also, the V100 had a more up-front and 2D soundstage, and less air and detail compared to the M^3 / GS-1.
  I enjoyed that amp with lower-end sources though, where it did actually sound better than the other 2 amps because it was always smooth, warm, bassy (good quality bass too), and forgiving. I also preferred the V100 over the HA-006++, though the difference in SQ wasn't huge.
   
  I also don't really agree with his comments on the Violectric build quality. It's not bad at all, but I would stop short of calling it amazing. Once again, Rockhopper, Sheer Audio, Meier, and especially Headamp's offerings all have noticeably better finish and build quality. The external body of the Violectric amps is made of a thin plastic-like material (not sure what it is) that bends and warps when pressed lightly.
   
  Anyways, I've said all I wanted to on this comparison here. Anyone wanting to discuss this further can PM me.


----------



## TigzStudio

Until you guys hear the v181, I am not sure you can jump to the conclusion as it being identical to the v100, as I said many times it has a beefier power supply....and probably accounts for why it sounds great with the LCD-2's.  Maybe Freid (the designer) can chime in here on v100 vs. v181.  I think he has an account on head-fi, you out there Freid!?!?
   
  The v181 took the place of my Stacker II (which I sold to a well respected head-fier recently)....I feel the Stacker II of course still beat the v181 a bit, but not by a huge margin.  That should tell you something about how I feel on the Violectric v181.  I ended up keeping the Violectric over the Stacker II for getting pretty darn close to it, as well as providing me with more functionality in my rig (inputs/outputs).


----------



## vrln

Actually I´m pretty sure Fried Reim told me in an email that the V181 is a new design, NOT based on the V100... As for the V200, it´s a completely different design than either of those. As far as I know (what I´ve read), it´s a spiritual successor to a cult-classic Nakamichi amp from the 1970´s... Once I get my new DAC soon I can write more about it  As for the topic, can´t comment as I don´t own the LCD-2´s (yet!), but from what I´ve read the Violectric amp range excells at being fantastic all-rounders using very different headphones (ie, can drive both a pair of Grado´s and your 600-ohm Beyerdynamics). Personally due to budget reasons that´s exactly what I´m looking for, but it all depends on many things of course


----------



## Shahrose

Here's what Fried had to say:
   
[size=small]"V100 and V200 are not very similar in terms of their amplifiers,[/size]​ [size=small]but they are quit close concerning their output voltage.
 Both are best suited to drive high impedance cans like T1

 As V181 is intended to operate best in balanced mode,[/size]​  [size=small]it is compareable to V100 and 200.

 In unbalanced mode the output voltage swing is only 50 % of the voltage swing of the balanced mode.
 So - for my opinion - it is not as good suited of high impedance cans like V100 or V200.

*From the sonic aspects V100 and V181 are quite similar.*
 Compared with V200, V181 gives more room or open sound in balanced mode.
 V200 on the other hand seems to be more "musical".[/size]"


----------



## vilasn

Quote: 





tigzstudio said:


> Until you guys hear the v181, I am not sure you can jump to the conclusion as it being identical to the v100, as I said many times it has a beefier power supply....and probably accounts for why it sounds great with the LCD-2's.  Maybe Freid (the designer) can chime in here on v100 vs. v181.  I think he has an account on head-fi, you out there Freid!?!?
> 
> The v181 took the place of my Stacker II (which I sold to a well respected head-fier recently)....I feel the Stacker II of course still beat the v181 a bit, but not by a huge margin.  That should tell you something about how I feel on the Violectric v181.  I ended up keeping the Violectric over the Stacker II for getting pretty darn close to it, as well as providing me with more functionality in my rig (inputs/outputs).


 

 Hi,
   
  What is the pre-gain setting you have on your V181, waiting on your V181 vs. Goldpoint Headphone Pro comparisons.
   
  Thanks.


----------



## vilasn

Quote: 





oqvist said:


> Sorry missed this. No I have never been into warmness by tradition. LCD-2 is just about the warmest headphone I have ever been able to get into. Maybe that is something new in older days...
> Voices is not the only thing it´s just one thing I have focused on. But it´s quite important to get this right because I watch a lot of movies, play games on top of my music listening. And I do listen to quite a bit of music with male and female vocalists.
> cheers


 

 Hi,
   
  Which DAC are you using with Goldpoint Headphone Pro? Do you still prefer GHP over V181/Trafomatic?
   
  Thanks.


----------



## oqvist

Audio GD DAC19 DSP always. Keces 131 mk 2 on the side but doesn´t get much use. GHP is my choice for solid state. The Head One is my one and only tube and is more or less enjoyable then the GHP depending on what I listen to and mood. Sent back the V200 earlier this week.
  V181 I haven´t heard.


----------



## vilasn

Quote: 





oqvist said:


> Audio GD DAC19 DSP always. Keces 131 mk 2 on the side but doesn´t get much use. GHP is my choice for solid state. The Head One is my one and only tube and is more or less enjoyable then the GHP depending on what I listen to and mood. Sent back the V200 earlier this week.
> V181 I haven´t heard.


 
   
  Thanks for your reply. I believe you must have connected V200 with your DAC 19 using RCA, wonder if would make any difference if you would have had an option connecting it balanced, e.g. using Ref 5 balanced out to V200. Also would be interesting if volume pot on V200 can be changed to something like *Goldpoint Stepped Attenuator.*
   
*Thanks anyway.*


----------



## 12barblues

Any views as to whether the PS Audio GCHA would be a sensible amp ( + dac) for the LCD-2?  It seems to have plenty of power, but not many fans around here even though it is now a lot cheaper than it was.
   
  I need to get moving as I hope my turn for delivery of the LCD-2 will be sometime in the next 2 or 3 weeks and it will take a little longer than that to save up for the likes of a Leben!


----------



## oqvist

Quote: 





vilasn said:


> Thanks for your reply. I believe you must have connected V200 with your DAC 19 using RCA, wonder if would make any difference if you would have had an option connecting it balanced, e.g. using Ref 5 balanced out to V200. Also would be interesting if volume pot on V200 can be changed to something like *Goldpoint Stepped Attenuator.*
> 
> *Thanks anyway.*


 

 I read about the V282 or which it was is going to have a better volume control than the one on the V200. It seems to make a difference surely.


----------



## kwkarth

Spent some more time yesterday listening to the new *RWA Isabelina HPA*, and I have to say, it's currently THE BEST combo DAC/Headamp I've heard to date with the LCD-2.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





sachu said:


> ^^ **facepalm**
> 
> Will never understand this craze with going balanced.


 
  One's imagination is a powerful thing.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> One's imagination is a powerful thing.


 

 Sachu's quote was from what, three days ago?
  Stop these sophomoric single-ended amplification compensation justifications  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 !


----------



## wower

@*kwkarth* Did you happen to see the white paper on balanced headphones and amps on Eddie Currents site? Should be on the bottom of the BA page. Your insight would be interesting.
   
  Ultimately the topic probably deserves its own thread where the gloves can come off and flame suits on.


----------



## TigzStudio

Quote: 





wower said:


> @*kwkarth* Did you happen to see the white paper on balanced headphones and amps on Eddie Currents site? Should be on the bottom of the BA page. Your insight would be interesting.
> 
> Ultimately the topic probably deserves its own thread where the gloves can come off and flame suits on.


 

 Perhaps a new thread titled "Cables and Balanced Amps, if you don't have them your missing out"  j.k   *flame suit on*  I am actually more of a believer in cables than balanced amps....even though I have one.  
   
  Anyway --> Lcd-2 amp recommendations = on.


----------



## SP Wild

The thing is, if you believe you can hear a difference in cables, what makes you think you won't be able to hear the differences between a separated ground, common mode noise rejection, and bi-amping?


----------



## grokit

I just don't understand why certain people always feel the need to attack those that choose to buy dual mono amps or HQ cables; does it make them feel better about not having these components in their own system? This hobby comes down to making purchasing decisions that aren't always based upon budgetary considerations anyways, so what's the big deal if someone wants to put their money where you choose not to put yours? There is no right or wrong here. It reminds me somehow of the anti-Apple warriors. You don't see people who have Apple products attack those who do not choose to own them, they are always forced to defend their choices against a barrage of hateful arguments.


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> Spent some more time yesterday listening to the new *RWA Isabelina HPA*, and I have to say, it's currently THE BEST combo DAC/Headamp I've heard to date with the LCD-2.


 

 Very Interesting, this thing has an old school R2R dac chip.  It appears that modern sigma-delta chips have some kind of high frequency switching/PWM going on - not disimilar to SMPS and class D amp principles.......This thing is not cheap, that's for sure, but would help greatly with countering the LCD2s very clinical precision.


----------



## TigzStudio

Yep I agree, I think it ultimately comes down to people making themselves feel better, as you said, about their own system/purchases.  Its hard for most people it seems to just "let it go" without chiming in with some snarky response.  I think this pretty much nails it on the head.  
  Quote: 





grokit said:


> I just don't understand why certain people feel the need to attack those that choose to buy dual mono amps or HQ cables; does it make them feel better about not having these components in their own system? This hobby comes down to making purchasing decisions that aren't always based upon budgetary considerations anyways, so what's the big deal if someone wants to put their money where you choose not to put yours? There is no right or wrong here. It reminds me somehow of the anti-Apple warriors. You don't see people who have Apple products attack those who do not choose to own them, they are always forced to defend their choices against a barrage of hateful assumptions.


----------



## oqvist

Quote: 





sp wild said:


> Very Interesting, this thing has an old school R2R dac chip.  It appears that modern sigma-delta chips have some kind of high frequency switching/PWM going on - not disimilar to SMPS and class D amp principles.......This thing is not cheap, that's for sure, but would help greatly with countering the LCD2s very clinical precision.


 

 I suppose it works because there is nothing clinical about the LCD-2 on my DAC19. That combo look nice but why only 16-bit on the DAC for that price???


----------



## ztsen

When reach certain age, the urge of wanting to voice out opinion/advice and less patient to stand what is going against their understanding and experiences. IMHO  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
   
  
  Quote: 





grokit said:


> I just don't understand why certain people always feel the need to attack those that choose to buy dual mono amps or HQ cables; does it make them feel better about not having these components in their own system? This hobby comes down to making purchasing decisions that aren't always based upon budgetary considerations anyways, so what's the big deal if someone wants to put their money where you choose not to put yours? There is no right or wrong here. It reminds me somehow of the anti-Apple warriors. You don't see people who have Apple products attack those who do not choose to own them, they are always forced to defend their choices against a barrage of hateful arguments.


----------



## RedBull

Quote: 





tigzstudio said:


> I am actually more of a believer in cables than balanced amps....


 

 x2


----------



## dallan

Quote: 





ztsen said:


> When reach certain age, the urge of wanting to voice out opinion/advice and less patient to stand what is going against their understanding and experiences. IMHO


 

 For me it has actually been the opposite.  I let it go more and seem to be a lot more flexible generally.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





dallan said:


> For me it has actually been the opposite.  I let it go more and seem to be a lot more flexible generally.


 

 You obviously never went to curmudgeon school.


----------



## DeadEars

Has anyone here tried vintage amps with their LCD-2's?
   
  In my spare time, I like to restore vintage hi-fi gear from the 1950's and 60's.  Several of the units on my bench have 32ohm output transformer taps (mostly push-pull Williamson designs).  I'm looking forward to connecting the LCD-2's directly to these, with a simple resistor network.  My interest in old amps was originally driven by my curiousity about the sound of different tube amp topologies.  Unfortunatelly, none of these old clunkers are very linear, and almost all of them interact severely with different speaker loads.  A big advantage of the Audez'e may be the pure resistive nature of the load, which I hope will make it a useful tool to me for actually hearing what is going on with these different amps.  
   
  Just as a side-note, it is fascinating to me how good the sound is from these old boat anchors, when hooked up to a vintage Klipsch or Bozak speaker.  Once their power supplies are brought up to spec, and any leaking coupling caps replaced, most still sing very sweetly!  My recent favorites include a Pilot SA-260 (very, very non-linear when scoped on a test-bench), and an Eico HF-81, both circa 1959.  IIRC, Stereophile did a review of the Eico HF-81 just a few years ago where the reviewer was raving about the quality of the sound, while the bench specs showed disappointing linearity, and poor noise specs.  Just goes to show, measurements are a poor way to choose good-sounding gear.
   
  Early kit amps like Heath, Eico and Dynaco can also sound quite good.  I found it interesting that the Dynaco SCA-35 manual includes instructions for connecting a headphone jack to the 16-ohm output taps of the transformer, using a simple 100 ohm (or 47 ohm) 1/2 watt dropping resistor.  Makes it quite easy to use headphones as a tool for qualifying the sound signatures of different amps.  Many of the 1970's-era vintage solid state amps came with headphone outputs on the front panel, but I have limited-and-mostly-bad experiences with listening to these.
   
  After my LCD-2's arrive, I'll post if I find any spectacular LCD-2 headphone amp pairings from my collection.  You can buy most of these amps in restored condition in the low hundreds of dollars, which makes them screaming bargains compared to the boutique dedicated headphone manufacturer's offerings.  The vintage amps offer a wealth of different approaches to sound reproduction, and alternative valid presentations of musical events.  Should be fun!


----------



## Skylab

The LCD-2 sound outstanding from my Fisher KX-100, which is a 7868 pentode push-pull tube amp from the early '60's.  I haven't posted about that combo because it's not like people can go out and buy a KX-100.  But since you brought it up...


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





wower said:


> @*kwkarth* Did you happen to see the white paper on balanced headphones and amps on Eddie Currents site? Should be on the bottom of the BA page. Your insight would be interesting.
> 
> Ultimately the topic probably deserves its own thread where the gloves can come off and flame suits on.


 

 I just glanced at it this morning.  What sort of questions did you have?  There is nothing said in the text that gives any benefit of a balanced headphone or speaker amp because there is none.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





sp wild said:


> The thing is, if you believe you can hear a difference in cables, what makes you think you won't be able to hear the differences between a separated ground, common mode noise rejection, and bi-amping?


 

 Let's talk about one buzz term at a time, shall we?  With which would you like to start?


----------



## kwkarth

Listened a bit to the Burson 160 headphone amp yesterday.  It seems to have more than adequate power for the LCD-2s.
   
  Didn't sound bad on casual listen!!


----------



## Permagrin

Quote:


kwkarth said:


> Listened a bit to the Burson 160 headphone amp yesterday.  It seems to have more than adequate power for the LCD-2s.
> 
> Didn't sound bad on casual listen!!


   




  Hopefully I can get some critical listening on other amps soon so I can close my wallet.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





tigzstudio said:


> Yep I agree, I think it ultimately comes down to people making themselves feel better, as you said, about their own system/purchases.  Its hard for most people it seems to just "let it go" without chiming in with some snarky response.  I think this pretty much nails it on the head.


 

 Snarky is as snarky does


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> Let's talk about one buzz term at a time, shall we?  With which would you like to start?


 


 Now when I said Bi-amping, what I meant was bridging which are two separate things altogether.  I know that todays amplifiers don't need to be bridged to supply sufficient power, e.g V200.  Also from my experience with finding poor earths in auto electrics (in modern cars this means high speed multiwire CAN bus or fibreoptics running PWM digital signals), a good ground connection is not hard to implement - to avoid voltage differences between ground points, all that is needed is a clean connection.  With a good ground the electrical system has an accurate zero volt reference - a properly constructed conventional amp should have no issues in ground, by that extension even a 3 channel B22 is overkill.
   
  But with common mode noise rejection, I think this might prove useful.  My LCD TV has a fan spinning in it, the computer has fans spinning, the fridge is going bonkers and these are all sources of nasty EMF...surely a little extra prevention in that department should pay dividends, perhaps?
  
  Quote: 





deadears said:


> Has anyone here tried vintage amps with their LCD-2's?
> 
> In my spare time, I like to restore vintage hi-fi gear from the 1950's and 60's.  Several of the units on my bench have 32ohm output transformer taps (mostly push-pull Williamson designs).  I'm looking forward to connecting the LCD-2's directly to these, with a simple resistor network.  My interest in old amps was originally driven by my curiousity about the sound of different tube amp topologies.  Unfortunatelly, none of these old clunkers are very linear, and almost all of them interact severely with different speaker loads.  A big advantage of the Audez'e may be the pure resistive nature of the load, which I hope will make it a useful tool to me for actually hearing what is going on with these different amps.
> 
> ...


 

 These LCD2s are extremely educational I find.  I have heard the difference between good output transformers and mediocre ones, something I couldn't quite understand before the LCD2s.  Also, jitter never posed a problem to me before, yet with the LCD2s - I hear different transports and playback software, whereas before I was not entirely convinced.  With a few amps and sources to compare between...the LCD2s can educate in a manner so obviously, due to it's incredible transparency...without resorting to a tipped up treble - that is incredible.  I've always reached for my K701s to analyse downstream differences, but the LCD2s are much more transparent than a K701 can dream of being.
   
  On a different note.  Is it me, or are these audiophile Chesky records somewhat over rated?  I mean I always felt they were magnificent with my HD650's and such sounding very realistic and clear, etc, over commercial recordings.  But the LCD2 is telling me different...they are what they are, low budget recordings.  In a visual analogy...they're like handicams - the picture is very much showing an image of reality, unlike movies.  However a good hollywood picture does have the better picture quality - without a doubt.  And so I find good commercial recordings, armed with a bigger budget, do sound better with the LCD2s, eg Harry Connick Jr, She album - or Eric Clapton, chronicles.  They are more precessed, but to me, sound better through the LCD2s.
   
  The ultimate annoyance with these audiophile recordings is that the LCD2s show up artifacts in the lower midrange in a lot of them (yes the 24/96 ones as well).  These artifacts help contribute to the midrange body in my conventional cans, but with the LCD2s they are exposed for what I suspect they are, an audiophile coloration trick...its a very bad resonance, reverberance in the lower mids - which don't show up in conventional cans.  Commercial recordings do not generally exhibit this coloration - the problem with most commercial recordings is dynamic range compression.  Looks like another case of pick your poison.
   
  And the Cayin triode tube amp has over taken the SS black cube as my majority preferred combo with the LCD2s - I can get the warmth and intimacy of the HD650 - but with clarity, extension - bigger soundstage and better imaging with an incredible earthquake subbass (for moderate to low level listening - ie 80 percent of my listening time).  I find it funny that it was a case of try all the headphones I can with my amp and source, but now my priorities have reversed...try all the amps and sources and see how they sound with the LCD2s!!!


----------



## wower

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> I just glanced at it this morning.  What sort of questions did you have?  There is nothing said in the text that gives any benefit of a balanced headphone or speaker amp because there is none.


 

 Not a specific question per say. I've been part of head-fi for so long interesting to see a shift back toward SE. I'm not totally convinced about the superiorty of either design but the recent shift has put SE and balanced on a more equal footing again for my hard earned cashed. Keeps lots of amp options open.  I love love love the look of the Zen Mini Torii for the LCD2 book it's just not flexible enough to use with other phones. Talking to their customer service (which is great by the way) they only say higher sensitivity of other phones will cause a problem. I thought for sure a balanced amp with in my future, but I'm back to considering a SE triode amp or something like the luxman P1u.


----------



## Frihed89

I'm thinking about building a dedicated 45 or 2A3 head amp for these headphones, but am worried about the current needed.  
   
  Using an 8 Ohm Transformer output from a 45 i will get around 5V and can produce a fair bit of current. Now 5V across a 50 Ohm load is 0.1A at .5W,
 so i should be able to get to 115dB before clipping. Going for a 2A3 will not really give me much more power.
   
  But Is there enough current for the LDC-2?
   
  A head-fier who listened to the LDC-2s with a Moth Si2A3 amp said he thought they sounded great


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





sp wild said:


> Now when I said Bi-amping, what I meant was bridging which are two separate things altogether.  I know that todays amplifiers don't need to be bridged to supply sufficient power, e.g V200.  Also from my experience with finding poor earths in auto electrics (in modern cars this means high speed multiwire CAN bus or fibreoptics running PWM digital signals), a good ground connection is not hard to implement - to avoid voltage differences between ground points, all that is needed is a clean connection.  With a good ground the electrical system has an accurate zero volt reference - a properly constructed conventional amp should have no issues in ground, by that extension even a 3 channel B22 is overkill.
> 
> But with common mode noise rejection, I think this might prove useful.  My LCD TV has a fan spinning in it, the computer has fans spinning, the fridge is going bonkers and these are all sources of nasty EMF...surely a little extra prevention in that department should pay dividends, perhaps?


 
  Common mode noise is not a problem in a properly designed and connected home audio system.  It's that simple.  If I ever detected common mode noise in my system, I would fix the issue, not try to band aid it by throwing money at a pair of balanced xfmrs and 1m interconnect.  If, on the other hand, I was running a 30ft cable from a mic to a mixer, I would not even think twice about employing balanced mic and cable systems.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





frihed89 said:


> I'm thinking about building a dedicated 45 or 2A3 head amp for these headphones, but am worried about the current needed.
> 
> Using an 8 Ohm Transformer output from a 45 i will get around 5V and can produce a fair bit of current. Now 5V across a 50 Ohm load is 0.1A
> Ampere or 0.5W, so i can get 115dB before clipping. Going for a 2A3 will not really give me much more power.
> ...


 
  It is enough if you never listen to any material whose peaks will require more power than that.  I have found if all other things are equal, an amp can cleanly supply more power seems to sound more open, even when listening at lower levels than what you would expect.


----------



## dallan

##


----------



## Currawong

It might have been posted in this thread before, but there is an interesting discussion on the technical merits or otherwise of balanced amps in AMB's forums.


----------



## Solude

I'll sum it up... BM is overstating the downsides in relation to the B22 and AMB is overstating the benefits in relation to the B22.  Ie the B22 output impedance is so low doubling it is still 0 ohm and since parts matching is to be expected, no increase in noise.  But on the other side AMB's listed benefits aren't problems the B22 suffers from.  Ie B22 is already silly powerful, doesn't have noise worth cancelling and its slew rate is multiples of whats needed for audio at its rated output.
   
  Both are right, its a matter of putting it in context of the amp in question.  Downsides are very real in say an OTL tube amp, upsides very true in a minimalist low power amp.  Don't get me started on the AMB practice of a ground channel, suffice to say its another case of solving problems that don't exist while causing problems that aren't noticeable because of the level of amp the B22 is.
   
  Err ya on topic... Monday I get my LCD-2, bloody FedEx error, and will be using my 2ch B22 =)


----------



## Currawong

Thanks for the summary. I'd never thought to wonder why there were no balanced OTL tube amps, but now it's rather obvious why.
   
  In my case, I have a DAC that's designed to work best with balanced output, so a balanced amp is most ideal for me. This also works well with Stax amps too, which are inherently balanced.  I thought that discussion on AMBs site covered the overall issue better than the rather random discussion here though.


----------



## wower

Quote: 





currawong said:


> It might have been posted in this thread before, but there is an interesting discussion on the technical merits or otherwise of balanced amps in AMB's forums.


 

 Thx for the link.


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





solude said:


> I'll sum it up... BM is overstating the downsides in relation to the B22 and AMB is overstating the benefits in relation to the B22.  Ie the B22 output impedance is so low doubling it is still 0 ohm and since parts matching is to be expected, no increase in noise.  But on the other side AMB's listed benefits aren't problems the B22 suffers from.  Ie B22 is already silly powerful, doesn't have noise worth cancelling and its slew rate is multiples of whats needed for audio at its rated output.
> 
> Both are right, its a matter of putting it in context of the amp in question.  Downsides are very real in say an OTL tube amp, upsides very true in a minimalist low power amp.  Don't get me started on the AMB practice of a ground channel, suffice to say its another case of solving problems that don't exist while causing problems that aren't noticeable because of the level of amp the B22 is.
> 
> Err ya on topic... Monday I get my LCD-2, bloody FedEx error, and will be using my 2ch B22 =)


 

 So really if someone wants to have a taste of a true hi-end solid state amp and is severely lacking in budget... the 2 Channel Beta22 will do just  that.  For those that have a balanced Dac then commissioning a 4 Channel build makes sense...but the 3 channel model is a little suspect - I mean, no matter how hard you create a separate ground, eventually down the line - all the grounds merge to one point.
   
  This is really good information for LCD2s owners, thanks.


----------



## K3cT

Quote: 





sp wild said:


> So really if someone wants to have a taste of a true hi-end solid state amp and is severely lacking in budget... the 2 Channel Beta22 will do just  that.  For those that have a balanced Dac then commissioning a 4 Channel build makes sense...*but the 3 channel model is a little suspect - I mean, no matter how hard you create a separate ground, eventually down the line - all the grounds merge to one point.*
> 
> This is really good information for LCD2s owners, thanks.


 

 I don't think it's as simple as that.


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





k3ct said:


> I don't think it's as simple as that.


 

 Agree some people make crazy wild assumptions even though they never heard the gear. I will be getting the LCD2 hopefully soon as I am on July list and I will use the matrix which may fit into a budget solution.


----------



## SP Wild

Can anybody share impressions of the LCD2s with the HA160 Burson?
   
  There's also a local distributor for the Schiit Asgard.  If I could sell of my other cans, I wouldn't mind picking up one of each for a German, US and Aussie solid state showdown...would be awesome!


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





sp wild said:


> Can anybody share impressions of the LCD2s with the HA160 Burson?
> 
> There's also a local distributor for the Schiit Asgard.  If I could sell of my other cans, I wouldn't mind picking up one of each for a German, US and Aussie solid state showdown...would be awesome!


 

 Yes, the Burson does well with the LCD-2s.  Plenty of power.  While I have not listened to the Burson at length to comment on the finer points of its character, I have listened enough to say that it is more than capable of adequately powering the LCD-2s.  The Burson is a good piece of gear.  I think the Asgard sounds a little smoother to my ears, but the Burson a little more powerful.


----------



## Racio

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> Spent some more time yesterday listening to the new *RWA Isabelina HPA*, and I have to say, it's currently THE BEST combo DAC/Headamp I've heard to date with the LCD-2.


 

 Hi Kwkarth, if I may ask, how would you compare the Isabellina to the Concerto, considering its driving capabilities alone (given that the Meier doesn't have an internal DAC) with the LCD-2? Which do you think synergizes better with the Audez'e? Reason I'm asking is that I have the ALO Amphora under my radar and I've read that both the Isabellina and the Amphora share the same amplification stage. Thanks in advance.


----------



## wower

Quote: 





racio said:


> Reason I'm asking is that I have the ALO Amphora under my radar


 

 Yeah that is a really sweet looking SS amp on paper and visually. Good on RWA for bring down the price point with that piece (over there other higher shelf gear).
   
  edit:spelling!


----------



## average_joe

I wanted to recommend the Stepdance for on the go listening.  I use the Stepdance to power the LCD-2 from my modded iPod and am extremely pleased with the result.  I can wander around the house with that setup.  Not sure if other portable amps are OK at driving the LCD-2 (I know, someone said their iPod was great at driving the LCD-2, not my experience), but I know the Stepdance smokes the Arrow with the LCD-2 and the Arrow/Rx (when I had the Rx & it was on high gain) both seemed about the same with my other cans.


----------



## Currawong

The Stepdance has an active ground and a lot of capacitors as, from what I can see, Meier tries to ensure his amps have more than enough power for even a portable, so that's no surprise.  The Rx is essentially just a single OPAMP.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





racio said:


> Hi Kwkarth, if I may ask, how would you compare the Isabellina to the Concerto, considering its driving capabilities alone (given that the Meier doesn't have an internal DAC) with the LCD-2? Which do you think synergizes better with the Audez'e? Reason I'm asking is that I have the ALO Amphora under my radar and I've read that both the Isabellina and the Amphora share the same amplification stage. Thanks in advance.


 
  That's a fair question, but one I cannot answer, since I do not have a Concerto to listen to.  When I listened to the Amphora driving the LCD-2s, I did not care for the sound, but in retrospect, it must have been the source at that time.  It was at CanJam, and I don't even remember the source that was used.  I wish I could be more helpful in this case.


----------



## Racio

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> That's a fair question, but one I cannot answer, since I do not have a Concerto to listen to.  When I listened to the Amphora driving the LCD-2s, I did not care for the sound, but in retrospect, it must have been the source at that time.  It was at CanJam, and I don't even remember the source that was used.  I wish I could be more helpful in this case.


 
   
  Alrighty then, well, from the reviews I've read on the Amphora, it seems that they're extremely neutral sounding amp having almost no sonic sig of its own, so I'd estimate the source used at the CanJam would seem suspect indeed.
   
  Back to the RWA Isabellina, would you say the amp has enough "juice" for the LCD-2? I can't seem to find any mention on its power output rating at 50 ohms, even at the RWA site. By the way, which other amp were you able to compare the Isabellina with, if any? Thanks.


----------



## Racio

Quote: 





average_joe said:


> I wanted to recommend the Stepdance for on the go listening.  I use the Stepdance to power the LCD-2 from my modded iPod and am extremely pleased with the result.  I can wander around the house with that setup.  Not sure if other portable amps are OK at driving the LCD-2 (I know, someone said their iPod was great at driving the LCD-2, not my experience), but I know the Stepdance smokes the Arrow with the LCD-2 and the Arrow/Rx (when I had the Rx & it was on high gain) both seemed about the same with my other cans.


 

 By any chance have you compared the Meier Stepdance with the iBasso Toucan? If so, care to share your thoughts on both of them driving the LCD-2?


----------



## K3cT

Currently testing the M-Stage with the HE5-LE so it should have no problems driving the LCD-2. As expected of the price, the amp struggles with complex passages and the top end seems soft at least when compared to my nekkid 3-channel β22 with random wires and $1 jacks. Plenty of reserve power though complete with a pleasant sound signature. A very good buy that the price point.
   
  I would imagine the result would be similar when used with the LCD-2.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





racio said:


> Alrighty then, well, from the reviews I've read on the Amphora, it seems that they're extremely neutral sounding amp having almost no sonic sig of its own, so I'd estimate the source used at the CanJam would seem suspect indeed.
> 
> Back to the RWA Isabellina, would you say the amp has enough "juice" for the LCD-2? I can't seem to find any mention on its power output rating at 50 ohms, even at the RWA site. By the way, which other amp were you able to compare the Isabellina with, if any? Thanks.


 
  The Isabellina seems to have more than enough "juice" for the LCD-2s.  No worries there.
  If you'll look through this, and other LCD-2 threads, you'll see that I've listened to and compared many, many amps on the LCD-2s.


----------



## oqvist

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> The Isabellina seems to have more than enough "juice" for the LCD-2s.  No worries there.
> If you'll look through this, and other LCD-2 threads, you'll see that I've listened to and compared many, many amps on the LCD-2s.


 

 I read the 6moons review and they mention lack of air, resolution and top end compared to the burson? They seem to give you more of what the LCD-2 is really good at though. Maybe I already got the HPA lol
   
  6moon also compare it to the Burson do you agree about their findings? http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/redwine12/hpa_3.html
  The 160 budget is more my cup of tea anyway since I already got a DAC I am very happy with. Read that you can´t use other Dacs with the HPA either?
   
  Would also like an idea how the Burson compares to the B22 in signature? Especially the treble?


----------



## Paganini Alfredo

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> The Isabellina seems to have more than enough "juice" for the LCD-2s.  No worries there.
> If you'll look through this, and other LCD-2 threads, you'll see that I've listened to and compared many, many amps on the LCD-2s.


 

 Did you take notes? I mean, it would be extremely useful if you could could condense your knowledge with all the amps you've heard into one post with each amp and a short description if the two worked well together.


----------



## kwkarth

The Rx had no external gain setting, so which amp are you referring to here?


----------



## Paganini Alfredo

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> If you'll look through this, and other LCD-2 threads, you'll see that I've listened to and compared many, many amps on the LCD-2s.


----------



## Cya|\|

So, can u please repeat how the m stage or the original black cube linear work with the lcd-2?
  I think that with the gigawork dac, and the lovely cube linear, fully assembled, i can get amp+dac at the same price of the audio gd fun A, wich is the one i'm actually considering to buy.
  What's the difference between the m stage, and the original cube linear (wich should be exactly as the lovely cube)?


----------



## K3cT

Apparently they sound different. I have the M-Stage right now for a loan and it has a pleasant sound, the midrange is slightly exaggerated with a rolled-off top end. The Lehmann according to a friend who have heard both is more neutral and colder. I say if you haven't heard both, go for the M-Stage as it has an easy-going sound signature that will not alienate you.
   
  Keep in mind of course that I haven't heard the Lehmann directly so take whatever I said regarding it with a grain of salt.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> If you'll look through this, and other LCD-2 threads, you'll see that I've listened to and compared many, many amps on the LCD-2s.





    
  Quote:


paganini alfredo said:


> Did you take notes? I mean, it would be extremely useful if you could could condense your knowledge with all the amps you've heard into one post with each amp and a short description if the two worked well together.


 

 It wouldn't hurt to add a (subjective) numerical ranking system either


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> The Rx had no external gain setting, so which amp are you referring to here?


 

 He was talking about the Arrow at the same time, IIRC.


----------



## Paganini Alfredo

Whoopsie daisies...


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





oqvist said:


> 6moon also compare it to the Burson do you agree about their findings? http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/redwine12/hpa_3.html
> The 160 budget is more my cup of tea anyway since I already got a DAC I am very happy with. Read that you can´t use other Dacs with the HPA either?


 

 That review is worth clicking on just to see the pics of their listening room...


----------



## Haidar

Has anyone heard the Manley Neo-Classic 300B with the LCD-2? 
   
  If not, would you care to speculate whether it would be a good match?
   
  http://www.manley.com/neo3br.php


----------



## RedBull

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *SP Wild* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> On a different note.  Is it me, or are these audiophile Chesky records somewhat over rated?  I mean I always felt they were magnificent with my HD650's and such sounding very realistic and clear, etc, over commercial recordings.  But the LCD2 is telling me different...they are what they are, low budget recordings.  In a visual analogy...they're like handicams - the picture is very much showing an image of reality, unlike movies.  However a good hollywood picture does have the better picture quality - without a doubt.  And so I find good commercial recordings, armed with a bigger budget, do sound better with the LCD2s, eg Harry Connick Jr, She album - or Eric Clapton, chronicles.  They are more precessed, but to me, sound better through the LCD2s.


 
   
  Interesting description SP Wild, strange, but I find Eric Clapton recording is thin, harsh, unrealistic with HD650, unlistenable, hmm ...  not all Chesky's are good though, like The Raven is quite good, but I like John Pizarelli's album better, the depth, timbre, imaging and realism is amazing in this album.


----------



## RedBull

Quote:


grokit said:


> That review is worth clicking on just to see the pics of their listening room...


 

 Oooohhhhh, heaven on earth ................


----------



## Henerenry

Sorry if I missed it, but what kind of voltage would these headphones like to see?
   
  I'm thinking about building a speaker to headphone adapter but need to get a better hold of voltage so I can determine resitor values.


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





redbull said:


> Interesting description SP Wild, strange, but I find Eric Clapton recording is thin, harsh, unrealistic with HD650, unlistenable, hmm ...  not all Chesky's are good though, like The Raven is quite good, but I like John Pizarelli's album better, the depth, timbre, imaging and realism is amazing in this album.


 

 I don't have a large collection of HD recordings - there were a few that I felt were too warmly recorded and a little congested when busy sections occur.  I have downloaded some more HD tracks and on average - they are excellent, on a whole different league to commercial recordings.
   
  I like how there are some very good commercial albums that do not try to emulate the "live" sound of HD tracks - there is no venue reverberence and the sound is solid and stable - I guess attributable to a sound deadend studio where the instruments are recorded separately and strung together to form a piece.  Top notch commercial recordings seem to bring me onto the drumkit with the band.  I also have a best of Heart CD - some tracks are clearly retouched with more brightness over the original releases.  So I don't know how one pressing of a track might differ from another pressing.
   
  HDtracks always seem to emulate the audience's perspective - and by an large, majority of the track succeed with astonishing clarity - but none of them give me the sense that I am on stage - definitely not with the LCD2s.  Undoubtedly most will appreciate this perspective - I do too.  But I do wish at least some of them would take me on stage.  But I do love how HDtracks can give frontal staging to the LCD2s - sometimes you really can imagine the stage towards the front with superb lifelike imaging.


----------



## thread

I took possession of my pair last Friday, and I'm loving them. You do have to sort of see past the way they feel on your head a bit, but the sound is really perhaps my favorite from any headphone yet. Great extension, detail, and authority.
   
  They sound really great out of my Rx... I've been sharing them with my coworkers, and the best they probably heard before the LCD-2 was my Edition 8. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I think everyone has been basically amazed at what these headphones can do. Where the Ed8 glossed over the details, my LCD-2 show them to me like a magnifying glass. The sound is also somehow bigger and more encompassing.
   
  When I use them at home with my [USB] DL3 (Cullen modified level 3) -> RPX-33, everything is kicked up a notch. The biggest thing is just a more filled out and effortless sound. Even still, I'm quite impressed with the performance of the UMDAC/Rx combo for what it is.
   
  The stock cable is annoying. The mesh sheathing between the Y and the headphones rubs against things -- even itself -- and is mega annoying. Especially if replacement cables can improve the sound, using one seems to be a no-brainer, unfortunately.
   
  Edit: Realized I was missing a whole thought...


----------



## Permagrin

Quote:


sp wild said:


> Can anybody share impressions of the LCD2s with the HA160 Burson?
> 
> There's also a local distributor for the Schiit Asgard.  If I could sell of my other cans, I wouldn't mind picking up one of each for a German, US and Aussie solid state showdown...would be awesome!


 
   
  I did already... but in the other threads I guess. Basically I'm loving the sound (especially now with the ALO V2 cable), but since I have heard no other amps with it I realize that doesn't help alot. I'd be quite surprised though to hear it driven noticeably better though as it just sounds that good. Hope to get to a meet soon though so I can open up my wallet again.


----------



## RedBull

Quote: 





sp wild said:


> I like how there are some very good commercial albums that do not try to emulate the "live" sound of HD tracks - there is no venue reverberence and the sound is solid and stable - I guess attributable to a sound deadend studio where the instruments are recorded separately and strung together to form a piece.  Top notch commercial recordings seem to bring me onto the drumkit with the band.  I also have a best of Heart CD - some tracks are clearly retouched with more brightness over the original releases.  So I don't know how one pressing of a track might differ from another pressing.
> 
> HDtracks always seem to emulate the audience's perspective - and by an large, majority of the track succeed with astonishing clarity - but none of them give me the sense that I am on stage - definitely not with the LCD2s.  Undoubtedly most will appreciate this perspective - I do too.  But I do wish at least some of them would take me on stage.  But I do love how HDtracks can give frontal staging to the LCD2s - sometimes you really can imagine the stage towards the front with superb lifelike imaging.


 

 Ah, now I know, it's preference then, I like being on the audience seat than on-stage, problem solved 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  I see you have Lehmann BCL, how's that little cute amp driving LCD-2?  still liking BCL?  if you plan to sell, please do drop me PM first


----------



## Radio_head

BCL for $769 on audiogon.  I'd go for it but I'm saving for a leben.
  http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1289076896&/Lehmannaudio-Black-Cube-Linear
  
  Quote: 





redbull said:


> Ah, now I know, it's preference then, I like being on the audience seat than on-stage, problem solved
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## superjohny

Quote: 





radio_head said:


> BCL for $769 on audiogon.  I'd go for it but I'm saving for a leben.
> http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1289076896&/Lehmannaudio-Black-Cube-Linear


 

 really wonder how leben competes against WA5


----------



## Radio_head

The WA5 isn't on the radar for me, mainly because with all the upgrading of parts it runs around 5K (if you're going to buy an amp of that caliber it might as well have the premo parts, goes the upgrade-itis voice in my head) vs Leben's 2.  Skylab, I know you like the WA6, ever tried the WA5 (with headphones/speakers)?


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





redbull said:


> Ah, now I know, it's preference then, I like being on the audience seat than on-stage, problem solved
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I'm adapting real well to being in the audience.  Front row!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Its the only solid state amp I have.  I *think* its neutral (compared to my other amps, I have leaner amps and warmer amps) - its sharp, quick and extremely detailed - at moderate to loud volumes its what gives me the most accurate portrayal of music as compared to real jamming sessions (incidently when I was jamming it was in a sound deadened room as well).  I do feel at the highest of volume (approaching real orchestra/rock concert levels) the BCL runs out of puff and its lower power output may explain why its soundstage is not as big as my higher powered Cayin tube amp - which sounds effortless at the highest of volumes.  Bass is supremely controlled all the way to the lowest notes.  These observations are made when mated to the Bryston Dac.
   
  I truly feel that the LCD2s need massive current (hence the BCL lacks that last 2/10ths)- once that's in place, the source must be attended to.  In fact I truly believe one should gun for the absolute best possible source one can afford - even if you have to sell other cans to obtain the source.  Then tuning the LCDs to the hi-end source via amp matching...all this before one even think of cables.
   
  Does your place of origin work at 220-240volts?
  
  Quote: 





radio_head said:


> The WA5 isn't on the radar for me, mainly because with all the upgrading of parts it runs around 5K (if you're going to buy an amp of that caliber it might as well have the premo parts, goes the upgrade-itis voice in my head) vs Leben's 2.  Skylab, I know you like the WA6, ever tried the WA5 (with headphones/speakers)?


 

 Gasp!  5K...I didn't realise this thing cost so much with upgrades - I couldn't live with an amp knowing I didn't tick the option boxes - that somehow, I had bottle necked the thing - which wouldn't happen if Jack didn't offer upgrades at all.


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





radio_head said:


> The WA5 isn't on the radar for me, mainly because with all the upgrading of parts it runs around 5K (if you're going to buy an amp of that caliber it might as well have the premo parts, goes the upgrade-itis voice in my head) vs Leben's 2.  Skylab, I know you like the WA6, ever tried the WA5 (with headphones/speakers)?


 

 Only heard the WA5 at CanJam (where I thought it sounded great).  So can't make any judgments/comparisons.  I do like the WA6 and WA2 a lot, for sure, at their respective price points and paired with the the right headphones they are truly excellent.


----------



## musicman59

Quote: 





sp wild said:


> I'm adapting real well to being in the audience.  Front row!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


 I am not sure how much of a difference the parts upgrade does but the tubes upgrade is a must. I installed the stock rectifier tubes while I was waiting for my upgraded EML 5U4G Mesh and they were harsh to the point that I went a bought a pair of NOS RCA to use in the meantime and keep them as backup.
   
  I think the one I listened to at CanJam did had some of the tube upgraded and not parts upgrade and IMO sounded better than the Manley 300B. That was the one that sold me into the WA5-LE.


----------



## RedBull

Quote: 





superjohny said:


> really wonder how leben competes against WA5


 

 I'm really curious about this as well, waiting for Skylab's comment 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  Quote: 





radio_head said:


> BCL for $769 on audiogon.  I'd go for it but I'm saving for a leben.
> http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1289076896&/Lehmannaudio-Black-Cube-Linear


 

 Thanks for the info Radio_head, I'm checking it now.
  
  Quote: 





radio_head said:


> The WA5 isn't on the radar for me, mainly because with all the upgrading of parts it runs around 5K (if you're going to buy an amp of that caliber it might as well have the premo parts, goes the upgrade-itis voice in my head) vs Leben's 2.  Skylab, I know you like the WA6, ever tried the WA5 (with headphones/speakers)?


 
   
  Not considering WA5LE?
  
  Quote: 





sp wild said:


> I'm adapting real well to being in the audience.  Front row!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Front row rocks!!!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Thanks for your comment for BCL, ya, I guess that's due to BCL's max output only 200 mW, rather small huh? right, I guess it's not a good match for 50 ohm LCD-2.   But I really love the bass control, 'almost' tube smoothness, *detail*, instrument separation, 'clean' sound out to HD650/HD800, quite rare for an SS amp this small.  Yes, my location is 220-240 V.  Thinking thinking thinking ..........  maybe I should hunt for a good DAC first.


----------



## Radio_head

Quote: 





redbull said:


> .
> 
> 
> Not considering WA5LE?


 
  I'd prefer the Leben over the LE because it also drives speakers.  So the only real apples to apples would be the WA5, which can get much pricier than both the LE and the Leben.


----------



## Frihed89

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Only heard the WA5 at CanJam (where I thought it sounded great).  So can't make any judgments/comparisons.  I do like the WA6 and WA2 a lot, for sure, at their respective price points and paired with the the right headphones they are truly excellent.


 
   
  The Leben and WA5 should sound very different through speakers, and I would have initially guessed through headphones.  One is a PP design with EL-84 output tubes, while the WA-5 is an SET design with 300Bs.  I've heard that Leben (once) and many 300B amps through the same speakers: the PP vs SET differences were there. I really enjoyed the Leben, but never thought to listen through headphones (or even remembered the headphone jack, to tell the truth).   That said, I have heard the WA5 through the LCD-2s and also the ZDT through the same cans.  I wasn't impressed by the WA-5 by comparison.  It just didn't convey the magic of the 300B.  Interestingly, the ZDT -- which is an SET amp -- didn't remind me of any 300B amp either (duh, it's not a 300B amp, and my experience is limited), but somewhere between a SS amp and a 2A3.  If I imagined the ZDT hooked to speakers, it would also have sounded different tonally than the Leben (SET vs PP).  My next effort is to connect the LCD-2s to the speaker outputs of my 300B SET, although I sadly doubt I will get another chance at the Leben, since the model I heard was a used item and got gobbled up quickly. By doing this, I hope to be able to answer some of the questions I have posed at the end of the next paragraph.
   
  I wonder if the headphone presentation of amps with dual speaker-headphone capability isn't quite different than through speakers?  Certainly, the headphone presentation of any amp is different than what you hear through speakers-more immediate and involving, but without the sound-stage that speakers are capable of.  But maybe these differences are so great that it "homogenizes" (but not necessarily in a bad way) the sonics of even very good amps  so that PP and SET designs and even different tubes within these two typologies sound quite different?  Or is the LCD-2s that do this?  Or my ears and brain?


----------



## musicman59

I just made a small comparison between my Woo WA5-LE and my Rudistor RP010B MkII. My personal conclusion is that the LCD-2 really shine better with a good solid state amplifier.
  Read here: http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/453116/audeze-lcd-2-orthos/4830


----------



## oqvist

Yes I am more times then not biased to my GHP over the Head One. The softer transients muddy the details a bit and the LCD-2 is so buttery smooth out of the GHP I would if anything want something harsher perhaps.
  Will see how the Burson 160 fair. I found one locally I can actually audition


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





oqvist said:


> Yes I am more times then not biased to my GHP over the Head One. The softer transients muddy the details a bit and the LCD-2 is so buttery smooth out of the GHP I would if anything want something harsher perhaps.
> Will see how the Burson 160 fair. I found one locally I can actually audition
> 
> 
> ...


 

 what is the power rating coming out of the GHP. Burson 800Mw. Believe it or not Jason told me the Asgard puts out !W into the LCD2 and price is inexpensive.


----------



## milford30

Hi guys,
  i'm on the wait list for the LCD-2, i currently have a Meier Aria, and i'm thinking that i'll probably need an upgrade, and recommendations?
  right now i'm looking at the Meier Corda stagedac and concerto combo.
  i've read quiet a bit of the trend, and came to the conclusion that i'm going to need a reasonable amp and dac as i will mostly be sourcing from my computer
  since i live in a relatively remote part of the world, shipping is a cost factor...
  any suggestions on other choices for a dac and amp at most 1200USD shipped? less if possible i'm not extremely picky i rather go for bang for buck(as i'm still a poor student), but it seems like 500 will probably not be enough for dac and amp?
   
  i also have an ibasso D10 if that's any use for a dac...
   
  Thanks in advance


----------



## musicman59

Quote: 





milford30 said:


> Hi guys,
> i'm on the wait list for the LCD-2, i currently have a Meier Aria, and i'm thinking that i'll probably need an upgrade, and recommendations?
> right now i'm looking at the Meier Corda stagedac and concerto combo.
> i've read quiet a bit of the trend, and came to the conclusion that i'm going to need a reasonable amp and dac as i will mostly be sourcing from my computer
> ...


 


 I would consider the Violectric V200 with it's higer end integrated DAC. I just tried a pair on LCD-2 in my V200 and sounded very good.


----------



## Solude

Huh others reported that the Voilectric DAC was a garbage throw in.  Interesting.


----------



## oqvist

Quote: 





frank i said:


> what is the power rating coming out of the GHP. Burson 800Mw. Believe it or not Jason told me the Asgard puts out !W into the LCD2 and price is inexpensive.


 

 There is no such info.. Asked Arn and here about it. Going by ear  I got no sense it running out of juice compared to the V200 with any of my low impedance headphones. No congestion or sibilance or anything but extremely detailed. I am not one of those that think you should listen to 100 db average and 125 db peaks for best live feeling though so haven´t tested the LCD-2 much as such crazy volumes.  90 average when I am rocking out like crazy but never run such for more then an hour or so if I can help it


----------



## musicman59

Quote: 





solude said:


> Huh others reported that the Voilectric DAC was a garbage throw in.  Interesting.


 

 There are two different DAC option that can go inside the V200. The lower end is a 16 bit/ 48 kHz which is the one reported as not that good and the other one is a 20bit/ 98kHz that is a lot better.


----------



## BK_856er

The "other one" is actually 24 Bit/96 kHz according to the mfg info page.  Have not heard too many reports on that one.
   
  BK
  
  Quote: 





musicman59 said:


> There are two different DAC option that can go inside the V200. The lower end is a 16 bit/ 48 kHz which is the one reported as not that good and the other one is a 20bit/ 98kHz that is a lot better.


----------



## milford30

Quote: 





musicman59 said:


> I would consider the Violectric V200 with it's higer end integrated DAC. I just tried a pair on LCD-2 in my V200 and sounded very good.


 

 Thank you very much for your input, i have just done an hour or so of research on it, it seems both dacs seems to have the similar 'low end' problem.... can you please post a link to confirm that the 20bit dac is better?
  i just can't see a dac added in for ~130 euros can be better than a $670USD stand alone dac, it would be cool if it really is true...
  since people have reported that the dac is quiet important... i think going for reasonably good dac would be a good choice....
   
  anyone have other combos to suggest?
   
  Thank You


----------



## slim.a

Quote: 





milford30 said:


> Thank you very much for your input, i have just done an hour or so of research on it, it seems both dacs seems to have the similar 'low end' problem.... can you please post a link to confirm that the 20bit dac is better?
> i just can't see a dac added in for ~130 euros can be better than a $670USD stand alone dac, it would be cool if it really is true...
> since people have reported that the dac is quiet important... i think going for reasonably good dac would be a good choice....
> 
> ...


 

 I am also on the pre-order list of the LCD-2 and I have also been wondering if my current equipment is goint to be good enough, especially the headphone amp.
   
  Regarding the source, if the LCD-2 is as revealing as it is said to be, I doubt that a 130€ built-in dac can do the job. Good DACs require expensive chips, good analog stages, overbuilt power supplies. I doubt that they could have fitted all of that in a small package for that small of a price. If that were true the stand alone DAC that violectric is making will have no reason to exist in their current line-up. I doubt that anyone will make the LCD-2 justice by running it through an entry level dac.
  Oqvist is running his LCD-2 from a similar DAC as mine (the dac19dsp) and it will be interesting to have his opinion about using the LCD-2 with lower end DACs.
   
  As for amping the beast. It seems that the amplifier needs to be very powerful to "open-up" the LCD-2s. I have read a few not so positive impressions on the LCD2 thread but it seems that the common point between those people is that they were using not so powerful amplifiers. If my memory is not mistaken, a few users (maybe kwkarth?) suggested that the amp needed to output close to 2W to give enough headroom for the LCD2s. I used to find that figure very high but it seems that it correlates with people impressions.
  My current headphone amp is specified for 1W (class A) on 60ohms... but I am still wondering if it will be good enough for the LCD2s. I have looked around and it seems that there is not a very wide choice of amplifiers that can output more than 1W on 60ohms.
  Some of the amps that caught my attention were the Violectric v200 (2.7watts at 50ohms) and the GS-1 (1watts) but they cost a little more than I intend to spend on a amp right now.
  The audio-gd ROC SA would also have been an ideal candidate (it outputs 15w on 60 ohms) but is a balanced design and I don't intend to upgrade my DAC and cables to balance right now. I suggested to Kingwa (the audio-gd's designer) that making a single ended version of the ROC SA might be a good idea to fill a gap in the entry/mid level section of the market for amps that can power adequately orthodynamics. We'll see what he comes up with.
  So besides the Schiit Asgard which is reported to pair well with the LCD-2s, I don't see many entry level offerings that can power well the power hungry orthodynamics.
   
  Overall, even if the amp is crucial to the performance of the LCD-2, I don't think you can skip the dac part. If the LCD-2 are as transparent as the HD800 and T1s (and they are said to be more), they will require a "serious" DAC to sound good.


----------



## milford30

Quote: 





slim.a said:


> I am also on the pre-order list of the LCD-2 and I have also been wondering if my current equipment is goint to be good enough, especially the headphone amp.
> 
> Regarding the source, if the LCD-2 is as revealing as it is said to be, I doubt that a 130€ built-in dac can do the job. Good DACs require expensive chips, good analog stages, overbuilt power supplies. I doubt that they could have fitted all of that in a small package for that small of a price. If that were true the stand alone DAC that violectric is making will have no reason to exist in their current line-up. I doubt that anyone will make the LCD-2 justice by running it through an entry level dac.
> Oqvist is running his LCD-2 from a similar DAC as mine (the dac19dsp) and it will be interesting to have his opinion about using the LCD-2 with lower end DACs.
> ...


 

 Thank You for your input, that is why i want to spend my money half/half on dac and amp, the option i came up with was the meier stagedac and concerto, i heard the Wolfson chips are pretty good, but i really would prefer to spend less if at all possible... how would nuforce HDP + Asgard stack up, i have read that some people are giving not so good reviews on the Asgard....
  all the other amps you have mentioned are out of my price range if i'm going to spend around 500 USD on my dac (due to the expensive shipping, as shipping is already included in the Meier combo i believe)....
   
  thanks for reminding me... i would prefer not got go balanced at this stage....
  i would be really interest to know if anyone got suggestions for a cheaper dac... that would help me a lot thx...


----------



## musicman59

Quote: 





milford30 said:


> Thank you very much for your input, i have just done an hour or so of research on it, it seems both dacs seems to have the similar 'low end' problem.... can you please post a link to confirm that the 20bit dac is better?
> i just can't see a dac added in for ~130 euros can be better than a $670USD stand alone dac, it would be cool if it really is true...
> since people have reported that the dac is quiet important... i think going for reasonably good dac would be a good choice....
> 
> ...


 
  I never said that a DAC integrated in the V200 or in that case in any headphone amplifier will be better than a dedicatged stand alone DAC specailly $670 or higher. What I said there was that option and for the price was aceptable.
  If you can afford buying the V200 with no DAC and buy a external DAC maybe a used PS Audio Link III with the Cullen mods you will be all set.


----------



## K3cT

Basically for the amplifier to drive a planar satisfactorily, a low impedance and a high damping factor are a must so most of the tube amps are out from the equation.


----------



## musicman59

Quote: 





k3ct said:


> Basically for the amplifier to drive a planar satisfactorily, a low impedance and a high damping factor are a must so most of the tube amps are out from the equation.


 


 Yeah. My though was that planar are more current hungry than voltage hungry and that's why SS is better than tubes for them.


----------



## RedBull

Quote:


k3ct said:


> Basically for the amplifier to drive a planar satisfactorily, a low impedance and a high damping factor are a must so most of the tube amps are out from the equation.


 

 You mean OTL?  Transformer coupled tube amp should be ok, no?


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





milford30 said:


> how would nuforce HDP + Asgard stack up, i have read that some people are giving not so good reviews on the Asgard....


 

 I would try the HDP alone first, it's amp is pretty good from and what I have read matches up well with the LCD-2. 
   
   
  Quote:


musicman59 said:


> If you can afford buying the V200 with no DAC and buy a external DAC maybe a used PS Audio Link III with the Cullen mods you will be all set.



   
  Or just get the matching Violectric DAC if you can afford it, that would make a very nice setup.


----------



## santacore

Quote: 





grokit said:


> Or just get the matching Violectric DAC if you can afford it, that would make a very nice setup.


 

 Good call. I'm rocking the V800 with the V200 and it sounds great. While the amp is very good, the V800 is the star of the show. I'm very impressed with it's performance.
   
  One other note-don't totally rule out tube amps. I was originally in the mind set that LCD-2's were better with solid state. Recently I've had the pleasure of auditioning a forthcoming tube headphone amp from Music Reference which changed my mind. It is a transformer based tube amp that sounds fantastic, has plenty of drive, and great bass control. I plan to buy one when he goes into production. So I guess what I'm saying is a high power transformer based tube amp is a great match.


----------



## oqvist

Quote: 





slim.a said:


> I am also on the pre-order list of the LCD-2 and I have also been wondering if my current equipment is goint to be good enough, especially the headphone amp.
> 
> Regarding the source, if the LCD-2 is as revealing as it is said to be, I doubt that a 130€ built-in dac can do the job. Good DACs require expensive chips, good analog stages, overbuilt power supplies. I doubt that they could have fitted all of that in a small package for that small of a price. If that were true the stand alone DAC that violectric is making will have no reason to exist in their current line-up. I doubt that anyone will make the LCD-2 justice by running it through an entry level dac.
> Oqvist is running his LCD-2 from a similar DAC as mine (the dac19dsp) and it will be interesting to have his opinion about using the LCD-2 with lower end DACs.


 
  Well good news is I got my Keces running again!
   
  As for opening up the sound or changing sound signature I have had better luck doing that by DAC/EQ part rather then different amps. 2W I suspect is serious overkill unless you listen at 120 db for best live feeling or something. if comparing the V200 to the low powered Auditor is something to go by. I don´t know the power specs of the GHP.
  .
  DAC19 is clearly the best DAC in my possession but it´s so neutral together with my GHP it kind of lacks direction so you forget what you are listening to. I love that about that combo so relaxing and nothing that disturbs you. You are on a constant high for hour upon hour.  Running the Keces which is a quite treble happy "musical" DAC and the LCD-2 really springs to life with better direction in it and a bigger soundstage and more "air". But it do best if you stick to less "serious" music or such or you get pissed by increased distortion and other issues it brings to the table. Finally get some idea why people find the LCD-2 unforgiving. Though it still does let the music come through.


----------



## Epoch

Quote: 





slim.a said:


> I am also on the pre-order list of the LCD-2 and I have also been wondering if my current equipment is goint to be good enough, especially the headphone amp.


 

 I am interested to hear your impressions with your gear and the LCD-2.  I am considering a purchase of the LCD-2 some time next year and have the same amp and DAC combo.  If it pairs well with the LCD-2 that would be great news, otherwise I might have to change my plans.


----------



## Currawong

I have the orange Stacker II hybrid tube amp here which is very good. I don't see why a decently powerful hybrid or transformer-coupled amp wouldn't work well.  I'm hoping Headamp's new Gilmore Lite-based DAC/amp will be less of a compromise than combo units usually are.  I can listen to the LCD-2s out of my Fun or Sparrow with good results, but I'd suggest people aim for better than that with $1k-worth of separates, the amp putting out at least 1W @ 50 Ohms or so for good measure.  These are arbitrary figures I chose in my head, so don't take it as gospel.


----------



## Frank I

The Decware CSP-2 works very well with them and the newer version should work better as deckert added more adjustments to further tune it. But the CSP-2 sound very well with them as that what I have using mostly.


----------



## Epoch

Quote: 





currawong said:


> I have the orange Stacker II hybrid tube amp here which is very good. I don't see why a decently powerful hybrid or transformer-coupled amp wouldn't work well.  I'm hoping Headamp's new Gilmore Lite-based DAC/amp will be less of a compromise than combo units usually are.  I can listen to the LCD-2s out of my Fun or Sparrow with good results, but I'd suggest people aim for better than that with $1k-worth of separates, the amp putting out at least 1W @ 50 Ohms or so for good measure.  These are arbitrary figures I chose in my head, so don't take it as gospel.


 

 Now out of curiosity, have you tried the LCD-2 single ended out of your Phoenix?  Not asking for detailed impressions, just a quick check to see if it works well, and hopefully much better than the Fun/Sparrow
  I understand that should still be a bit higher end than a C2, but I don't recall if single ended operation still had the same voltage swing and current output on the Phoenix as balanced operation does.  The Fun/Sparrow can put out a lot more power in to low impedance headphones than the C2 according to the specs that Kingwa has listed on his site.
   
  If you find some time to try that, it would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## Currawong

Quote: 





epoch said:


> Now out of curiosity, have you tried the LCD-2 single ended out of your Phoenix?  Not asking for detailed impressions, just a quick check to see if it works well, and hopefully much better than the Fun/Sparrow
> I understand that should still be a bit higher end than a C2, but I don't recall if single ended operation still had the same voltage swing and current output on the Phoenix as balanced operation does.  The Fun/Sparrow can put out a lot more power in to low impedance headphones than the C2 according to the specs that Kingwa has listed on his site.
> 
> If you find some time to try that, it would be greatly appreciated.


 

 I did initially use the LCD-2s single-ended out of the Phoenix, to ensure they were working fine before changing the plug to a 4-pin XLR.  The Phoenix SE output is pretty unexciting -- I much preferred the single-ended amps I had here at various stages -- the Luxman P-1, Audiovalve RKV Mark II and the Stacker II.  However, that it because those amps are coloured in various ways.  Trying it now, I feel the same way, but it was designed to be used balanced and only uses half the circuitry single-ended.


----------



## Epoch

If it only uses half of the output circuitry that does bode well for the C2, as the Phoenix can't drive as much current by comparison if the specs are correct.  Provided that the numbers are correct on the Audio-GD website, it can only put out about 500 mw to the LCD-2, as opposed to 800 mw for the C2.  So power wise single ended it shouldn't pose a problem.  The C2 based upon a 62 ohm load can output 127~128ma of current, single ended for the Phoenix is 100ma into the same load single ended.
   
  Doesn't really mean anything for performance, but power wise it should be okay.  That leaves me to either wait for somebody else to try it, or to wait until I try it myself.
   
  Thanks for the feedback, now I just get to wait.


----------



## slim.a

Quote: 





oqvist said:


> Well good news is I got my Keces running again!
> 
> As for opening up the sound or changing sound signature I have had better luck doing that by DAC/EQ part rather then different amps. 2W I suspect is serious overkill unless you listen at 120 db for best live feeling or something. if comparing the V200 to the low powered Auditor is something to go by. I don´t know the power specs of the GHP.
> .
> DAC19 is clearly the best DAC in my possession but it´s so neutral together with my GHP it kind of lacks direction so you forget what you are listening to. I love that about that combo so relaxing and nothing that disturbs you. You are on a constant high for hour upon hour.  Running the Keces which is a quite treble happy "musical" DAC and the LCD-2 really springs to life with better direction in it and a bigger soundstage and more "air". But it do best if you stick to less "serious" music or such or you get pissed by increased distortion and other issues it brings to the table. Finally get some idea why people find the LCD-2 unforgiving. Though it still does let the music come through.


 

 Good news that you have your Keces dac running again.

 Thanks for your post, it helps better understand what to expect from the LCD-2 while waiting for it.

  
  Quote: 





epoch said:


> I am interested to hear your impressions with your gear and the LCD-2.  I am considering a purchase of the LCD-2 some time next year and have the same amp and DAC combo.  If it pairs well with the LCD-2 that would be great news, otherwise I might have to change my plans.


 

 I will definitely post my impressions when I receive the LCD-2. It seems that Audeze are accelerating their production ... I hope the wait won't be too long 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  Regarding the potential synergy, I am hopeful that I won't have too many changes to make. My main system (the same as yours) had perfect synergy with the (silver cables) HD650 but a little less with my ALO recabled Beyer T1s.
  If I had to describe, I would say:
  a/ dac19 + c2 + (silver cabled) hd650 = natural and relatively neutral sounding
  b/ dac19 + c2 + (ALO recabled) T1= neutral, pinpoint imaging, big soundstage, extremely dynamic and resolving but a little sterile (in comparison to a/ and c/)
  c/ dac19 + LD MKIII + (ALO recabled) T1 = natural sounding, hollographic imaging but not as resolved as a/ and b/
   
  Given that I subjectively prefer the overall presentation of a/ and c/, I am hopeful that the dac19+c2+LCD-2 might the right combination for me. If I were doing monitoring work and needed an ultra resolving set-up, I would choose the combination b/ however since I am in this hobby for enjoyment, it seems that what oqvist described is closer to my expectations on what an "ideal" should sound like.
   
  Quote: 





epoch said:


> If it only uses half of the output circuitry that does bode well for the C2, as the Phoenix can't drive as much current by comparison if the specs are correct.  Provided that the numbers are correct on the Audio-GD website, it can only put out about 500 mw to the LCD-2, as opposed to 800 mw for the C2.  So power wise single ended it shouldn't pose a problem.  The C2 based upon a 62 ohm load can output 127~128ma of current, single ended for the Phoenix is 100ma into the same load single ended.
> 
> Doesn't really mean anything for performance, but power wise it should be okay.  That leaves me to either wait for somebody else to try it, or to wait until I try it myself.
> 
> Thanks for the feedback, now I just get to wait.


 

 Those numbers can be a little bit misleading. The FUN is rated for 3.5 watts on 25 ohms while the c2 is limited to 1watts. Both amps have an output impedance of 1.5 ohms. However the FUN is a class A/B and the c2 is class A.
  The funny thing is that the C2 seems to have more "grip" over headphones I have tried on it (HD650, AKG701, Beyer T1). The C2 seems to have more dynamic headroom, or to put it differently, the FUN seems to suffer from compression in loud and complex passages.
  So even if the C2 has better figures than the Phoenix, it might probably not sound as good in real world situations.
  With that being said, and IMO, it seems that the Phoenix was designed for mid to high impedance cans. The ROC SA, on the other hand, outputs 15 watts on 60 ohms and was designed with high output over low sensitivity heapdhones in mind. There might be a better synergy between the ROC SA and orthos than with Phoenix and orthos. But this is only pure speculation as I am trying to make sense for my future headphone amp upgrade. For all that I know, the C2 will be "good enough".


----------



## Currawong

I'd say the main point is not just power, but how linear the performance of the amp is.  
   
  Love the craziness of the Roc SA -- 15W max power for headphones!  It needs speaker outputs, not pre-amp outputs. I think only the Dynamite came close to that level of insanity.


----------



## Solude

b22 18w =)


----------



## Currawong

That's at 8 Ohms for speakers though, but indeed, I don't doubt a balanced B22 would be great for the LCD-2s as well.


----------



## Nebby

The beta22 that Amb tested was a 3 channel config and tested at 5.6Wrms into 32ohm; a balanced beta22 would certainly put out more than that (how much more depends on how crazy someone goes with the heatsinking).
   
  Speaking of insane, whenever I finally end up getting one of the LCD-2's I plan on giving it a try with my beta24. Maybe that might be enough power to "properly drive" the LCD-2's =P
  Quote: 





currawong said:


> That's at 8 Ohms for speakers though, but indeed, I don't doubt a balanced B22 would be great for the LCD-2s as well.


----------



## oqvist

Lol what is the point. Do the LCD-2 ever even use 2W?


----------



## Nebby

Doubtful, but given how some folks have claimed they require serious amping, I figure why not give it a try.


----------



## Epoch

Quote: 





slim.a said:


> Good news that you have your Keces dac running again.
> 
> Thanks for your post, it helps better understand what to expect from the LCD-2 while waiting for it.
> 
> ...


 

 I was hoping that with the current performance that I was getting with the C2 and its output power for the LCD-2 that it should still perform well.

  
  Quote: 





currawong said:


> I'd say the main point is not just power, but how linear the performance of the amp is.
> 
> Love the craziness of the Roc SA -- 15W max power for headphones!  It needs speaker outputs, not pre-amp outputs. I think only the Dynamite came close to that level of insanity.


 

 I was tempted to get a Roc SA when I was ordering my C2, but I didn't want to have to spend more on a balanced DAC as well, though a Roc SA and Ref-9/8 combo looked really nice.  Maybe some other time, but seeing the pace of new product releases, something will replace both of those before I place another order for equipment.


----------



## FauDrei

Epoch, there are two things you can try with your C2:
  

 increase C2's current limit by adding/soldering two additional resistors; ask KingWa for resistor locations, values and safe increase limits while remaining in class A
 fine tuning bias voltage to suit your sound tastes; it takes multimeter, screwdriver and, again, info from KingWa on bias measuring points and bias voltage ranges
   
  I can recommend both tweaks. It just might turn your C2 experience from good to great.


----------



## Epoch

I nominate somebody else to start screwing around inside the C2 and posting pictures, I don't feel like being the first documented case at this point in time.
   
  My experience with the C2 and the DAC19DSP is already excellent.  I would consider the HD650 and the integrated amp of the Essence STX good, using them with the SOHA is great, and with the DAC19DSP and C2 the HD650 is excellent.
   
  I just know that if I want and can afford better it will probably be best achieved through the LCD-2, I just don't know if the C2 is up to the challenge.  It should be, and if you are right about adding a couple resistors to increase the current capacity in Class A that would probably be just fine.  I am under the impression that changing the bias voltage on Audio-GD headphone amps changes the sonic presentation, which isn't something that I am interested in doing.  It may do that for other amps as well, but from my limited reading that is the effect, which isn't what I want.
   
  So if I get ambitious and want to use the LCD-2 I will look at asking Kingwa about increasing the current capacity, but I think that will be the extent of what I do.


----------



## n3rdling

Quote: 





santacore said:


> Good call. I'm rocking the V800 with the V200 and it sounds great. While the amp is very good, the V800 is the star of the show. I'm very impressed with it's performance.
> 
> One other note-don't totally rule out tube amps. I was originally in the mind set that LCD-2's were better with solid state. Recently I've had the pleasure of auditioning a forthcoming tube headphone amp from Music Reference which changed my mind. It is a transformer based tube amp that sounds fantastic, has plenty of drive, and great bass control. I plan to buy one when he goes into production. So I guess what I'm saying is a high power transformer based tube amp is a great match.


 

 Damn SoCal needs to have another local meet!  I wanna hear what your setup and Dallan's setup sounds like with the LCD2. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




" class="bbcode_smiley" height="" src="http://files.head-fi.org/images/smilies//frown.gif" title="
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




" width="" />


----------



## Currawong

Some experimentation with speaker amps would definitely be good I reckon.  I did try my little Parasound Zamp briefly, and it worked reasonably well.


----------



## dallan

Quote: 





n3rdling said:


> Damn SoCal needs to have another local meet!  I wanna hear what your setup and Dallan's setup sounds like with the LCD2.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Santicore has the same amp so it would be close just dac differences.  I am probably jumping ship on the LCD2 for a number of reasons, the main one being that over the last month and for the foreseeable future I need a closed phone or iem.  Open phones are not working here with the family and the room set up.  Kind of a problem and haven't figured out a solution that works.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Have only used my 800s about twice in that time.  Mostly spending time with my DX1000 or hooking in my JH13 when it is bad.


----------



## n3rdling

Oh I thought you were still using the Zana?  Sorry to hear you haven't been able to listen to your HD800s lately, I know you love them.  Hopefully your situation changes for the better and you can go back to it or the LCD2.


----------



## oqvist

I want to hook up my LCD-2 to my Yamaha receiver... It´s rated at 95W per channel. I suppose you need resistors? Is there any commercial adapters to connect headphones to the speaker terminals or is there anyone in here that builds them?


----------



## achristilaw

Quote: 





oqvist said:


> Lol what is the point. Do the LCD-2 ever even use 2W?


 


 The point being that to maintain .1 watt (100 milliwatts continuous) you need a full watt to avoid clipping or compression. To maintain a single watt continuous....you need ten watts on tap!! It's called headroom (not the co.) and a generous allowance makes for Happy Campers!!


----------



## dallan

Quote: 





n3rdling said:


> Oh I thought you were still using the Zana?  Sorry to hear you haven't been able to listen to your HD800s lately, I know you love them.  Hopefully your situation changes for the better and you can go back to it or the LCD2.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I actually bought the v200 for the LCD2 but it works very well for the DX1000s luckily, different/better than the Zana on them.  With the V200 i loose a little soundstage and noise floor is slightly higher but drives them way better.  Ya the open phones I have a lot of family noise here lately and when it gets quiet my wife can hear them in our bedroom if she is going to sleep because the house then is really silent at that point and we have tile floors, high ceilings and the doors don't go to the tile like carpet so it's really loud.  Should be happy with what i have here anyway, it's better than most of the population.


----------



## oqvist

Quote: 





achristilaw said:


> The point being that to maintain .1 watt (100 milliwatts continuous) you need a full watt to avoid clipping or compression. To maintain a single watt continuous....you need ten watts on tap!! It's called headroom (not the co.) and a generous allowance makes for Happy Campers!!


 

 Why are those headphone amp psus so inefficient? computer PSUs operate optimum at a 75 % load most of them?


----------



## SP Wild

Is there anything wrong with getting a female 1/4 inch plug and solder bare conductors to it...the LCD2 1/4 inch goes into the female end which ends in bare strands to connect it straight into my 50 watt valve amp - I don't want to use resistors, because when I plug the LCD2 into my Yamaha receiver, which derives its output from resistors straight from the speaker taps - it clips sooner than my headamps with the LCD2 (never had this problem with the yammie with any can before).
   
  The only concern I have is that I'll be effectively joining both the speaker negative terminals together...I wasnt to calrify that this is OK, I'm thinking the negatives are shared inside speakers amps (unless they're balanced)...but I just want to clarify.
   
  I have got back into rockin with the LCD2s and with Guns n Roses I can induce all my headamps to compression when trying to simulate a quick concert rockout.  This was not really an issue with audiophile recordings that have less going on, but with 2pac the bass is taking all the watts and with GNR the guitars swallow the watts - so when I really want to rockout...I'm running out of puff.
   
  Before I place an order on the AudioGD ROC - I  want to remove all doubts that it is a power related issue.
   
  Someone give me the OK and I'll snip the end of this headphone extension I have in my hands.


----------



## Currawong

Quote: 





oqvist said:


> Why are those headphone amp psus so inefficient? computer PSUs operate optimum at a 75 % load most of them?


 

 Computer PSUs don't have to deal with a wildly fluctuating load, which music is.


----------



## oqvist

Yes they do if you are an overclocker. Then it´s absolute paramount having as stable power as possible. The load on the LCD-2 is constantly at ca 50 ohm so should be quite an easy load I would believe?


----------



## gknix

I believe Audeze LCD-2 are low impedance cans right?
  Did Audeze plug in to the wrong jack here? :  http://picasaweb.google.com/rushvora/Day2#5479802310646628466


----------



## SP Wild

This is my Class AB KT88 push pull 50 watt X 2 rms all tube amplifier.
   
  I connected my LCD2 to a 1/4 inch to 1/8inch adapter before plugging it into a el-cheapo 1/8 inch headphone extension lead.  I snip the plug end of the extension and connected the bare wires to the amps speaker output.  I was worried with the wires as there was only a few strands - this is the worst possible scenario in terms of wire diameter ... I made sure in testing the wires didn't overheat.
   
  Using the 4ohm output taps gives me a warm and soothing signature...the 8 ohm speaker taps were remarkably nuetralish (as compare to my SS Lehman amp)
   
  At this stage the only negative with this setup is there is a noticeable hum when the volume as at minimum...it doesn't really get in the way when music is playing.  This is what an increased power output did for me.  All may headamps run out of steam at enthusiastic levels...the sound compresses and the bass loses impact.  This was blatantly obvious when comparing to the integrated - I was only suspecting this and that it might be the cans not up to  the task.  I have proven to meyself that the cans are more than adequate and that it is my amps that are not up to the task.  This includes the Cayin tube amp that can pump out 2.2 watts into speakers.
   
  This integrated is the quickest tube amp I have ever heard...it is virtually on par with the Lehmann Black cube linear in controlling bass and transients...so it would appear that tube amps being slow and rolled off - to me, has been proven a myth - finally.
   
  First thing I noticed without even listening at high output levels is that the soundstage, micro-dynamics, separation and imaging was immediately noticeable over all my headamps, not that the LCD2s were evr weak in those areas.  I have no idea what some people are on about that the LCD2s has a disadvantage compared to other cans in soundstaging...they have always soundstaged massively...perhaps not as good as the HD800 in trajecting a forward image...but I have always stated that in terms of overall volume...it's the biggest soundstage I have ever heard in a can. 
   
  This is probably helped by the Bryston Dac which has a soundstage immensely larger than my next rung down dac, the dacmagic.  The HD800 only trajects a forward width soundtage bigger than the LCD2, even then the frequency range is limited in the stage - existing mainly in the upper mid right through the treble - the HD800 never gave me a rear image for example.  I find the LCD2 soundstage all encompassing in all frequencies, a more circular or global stage where the head is at the center.
   
  Anyway with the tube integrated it is that much bigger...yet never losing intimacy...try doing that HD800.  Control is definitely improved resulting in greater microdynamics...in that even at lower levels - (using Studio Master 24/96 Alyn Coster - a great drummer as reference) a snare drum will separate itself from the rest of the music even more easily (like it does in real drums)...crank it up for as much as you dare (this time I was afraid to blow the LCD2s drivers so I didn't go past 11 o'clock) and the dynamic will not relent.  This dynamic, with instruments more effectively leaping out from the mix when asked to...invariably leads to greater imaging and detailing.
   
  So yeah.. I'd say 90 percent of the highly reputable head amps out there is in someway not allowing the LCD2s to reveal its true capabilities...and this is not counting how important the source is - no less than the amplifier, without a doubt.
   
  Try crank a HD800 to concert levels...it cannot be done, the tonality would be so skewed it would be obvious - this is how my HRTF tells me about it.  Like I said only the LCD2s can get away with it and maybe the O2s with a good amp.  And yet for me the LCD2s are still too detailed, airy and trebly at low volumes - needing my Fostex T20 v2 as my defacto backround, internet spamming music.


----------



## Nebby

I actually think that this is only a rule of thumb and not fact. Well designed/built amps such as the beta22 should be able to drive loads well past 1/10th of the rated power without clipping or compression. Supposedly ortho's require a lot of current, which I think is the main reason behind the suggestions for more powerful amps....it may be that some amps can't handle the current draw of the LCD-2s.
   
   
  Quote: 





achristilaw said:


> The point being that to maintain .1 watt (100 milliwatts continuous) you need a full watt to avoid clipping or compression. To maintain a single watt continuous....you need ten watts on tap!! It's called headroom (not the co.) and a generous allowance makes for Happy Campers!!


 

  
  oqvist: let's not get into efficiency.....remember in the audiophile world in general efficiency means nothing.Class-A amps regularly have efficiencies of 20% or less 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Computer power supplies are switched mode power supplies which is why they are so efficient. SMPS's are generally very noisy which is why they aren't used for audio applications (usually). For example, the Corsair AX850W PS was tested at 18mv noise on the 12V rail, which was noted as being extremely low. The AMB sigma22 power supply has a measured noise level of 0.012mv. Comparing a computer power supply and an amp is an apples to oranges comparison


----------



## oqvist

I do realize it´s not a straight comparison. But would be nice with some debate. I do feel that the power rating for computer PSUs are more honest even though they are often measured at lower then real working temperatures.
  But then come the question how do the manufacturers come up with their power specs if it´s the norm that their PSUs can´t do more then 20% of what is claimed?. Do they always give the maximum value or is there any amp manufacturers that are more honest?


----------



## Nebby

Amp power ratings have always been a sticking point in the audio sector. There really isn't much in standardization amongst the manufacturers and your guess is as good as mine as to how any particular manufacturer tests/rates their amp. On the computer power supply side of things, the 80Plus program is helping to standardize everything as power supplies are all tested in the same manner, even if they're generally tested at only a few specific power levels and usually at a lower temp than normal usage would cause it to run at.
   
  Why do you think that the power limitation is only caused by the PSU of an amp? That's not always the limitation as there isn't always a direct correlation between the amount of power supplied by the power supply in an amp and the power output by the amp. That's why it's not fair to compare computer power supplies to an amp, you're comparing a power supply + amp to a power supply. .


----------



## Solude

Lets also not confuse power supply efficiency with sustained output.  An amp that output 10W with likely draw 100W into its power supply but can sustain that 10W all day.  Dynalo is a perfect example for this, 10W from the wall, 1W to the output... all day.  Where this falls apart is when the supply is 10W and the output is 10W


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





sp wild said:


> Is there anything wrong with getting a female 1/4 inch plug and solder bare conductors to it...the LCD2 1/4 inch goes into the female end which ends in bare strands to connect it straight into my 50 watt valve amp - I don't want to use resistors, because when I plug the LCD2 into my Yamaha receiver, which derives its output from resistors straight from the speaker taps - it clips sooner than my headamps with the LCD2 (never had this problem with the yammie with any can before).
> 
> The only concern I have is that I'll be effectively joining both the speaker negative terminals together...I wasnt to calrify that this is OK, I'm thinking the negatives are shared inside speakers amps (unless they're balanced)...but I just want to clarify.


 

  Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *SP Wild* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> the only negative with this setup is there is a noticeable hum when the volume as at minimum...it doesn't really get in the way when music is playing.


 
   

 I think the usual method is to make a speaker tap adapter from a balanced connector, that would probably take care of that ground noise.


----------



## SP Wild

@ Grokit.   You might have a point there.  Or it may be that it is a speaker amp after all, and with such a massive gain, wiring it straight to a headphone may reveals its limitation as a headphone amp due to a higher noise floor.  I'll hook it up to the speaker outputs of the Cayin and Ming Da to see if grounding issues occur.  Otherwise going balanced with a balanced amp...also opens up the possibilities to connect headphones to low powered speaker amps - or so it might seem?
   
  Also I am now finding that at low listening level - the amp fails to deliver refinement....as if the amp is not operating at a zone it wants to.  At moderate to higher volumes, refinement comes back to the equation and it is clearly superior to all my headphone amps once the taps are turned up and the amp itself seems to "breathe" better.  The problem is, a majority of my headphone listening is carried out at very, very low volumes.  But to rock out for 15 minutes...wow, just wow.


----------



## oqvist

Quote: 





solude said:


> Lets also not confuse power supply efficiency with sustained output.  An amp that output 10W with likely draw 100W into its power supply but can sustain that 10W all day.  Dynalo is a perfect example for this, 10W from the wall, 1W to the output... all day.  Where this falls apart is when the supply is 10W and the output is 10W
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  lol.
   
  Anybody here know some DIYer or store that sell adapters?


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





nebby said:


> Amp power ratings have always been a sticking point in the audio sector. There really isn't much in standardization amongst the manufacturers and your guess is as good as mine as to how any particular manufacturer tests/rates their amp. On the computer power supply side of things, the 80Plus program is helping to standardize everything as power supplies are all tested in the same manner, even if they're generally tested at only a few specific power levels and usually at a lower temp than normal usage would cause it to run at.
> 
> Why do you think that the power limitation is only caused by the PSU of an amp? That's not always the limitation as there isn't always a direct correlation between the amount of power supplied by the power supply in an amp and the power output by the amp. That's why it's not fair to compare computer power supplies to an amp, you're comparing a power supply + amp to a power supply. .


 

 Agreed.  Amp output power is different to PSU output.  Class A amps will draw the same amount of power regardless of what volume you set it on - any power not used to output sound is generally being wasted on heat.


----------



## grokit

I'm actually in the process of having a speaker adapter made from a female 4-pin XLR connector; it should end up quite similar to the speaker terminal adapter that Fang is reportedly circulating with his HE-6 loaner program. His I think has banana plugs, I am going with tinned ends for now for versatility. No resistors, just keep the volume down until they are on my head will be my rule of thumb. I'm sure there are many DIYers here at Head-fi capable of making something like this.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





oqvist said:


> lol.
> 
> Anybody here know some DIYer or store that sell adapters?


 

 ALO Audio have a MinniWatt brand speaker/headphone adapter that seems to work really well.  It's very well built using metal film resistors.  Makes the noise floor a moot point and still lets plenty of power to the cans.  It's 99 bux, but built really well.


----------



## Nebby

Just a note: if your speaker amp is bridged or if it has balanced outputs, it's important to make sure that the adapter you are going to use does not tie the grounds together. Probably not an issue for most folks, but I figure it's worth mentioning.


----------



## oqvist

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> ALO Audio have a MinniWatt brand speaker/headphone adapter that seems to work really well.  It's very well built using metal film resistors.  Makes the noise floor a moot point and still lets plenty of power to the cans.  It's 99 bux, but built really well.


 

 Finally some light in the horizon... Seemed a bit pricey though if it really help with ev noise issue it would be worth it. I have a Yamaha RX-V663 receiver so the chances are pretty big I would run into such issues I suspect. I don´t think it has balanced outputs?


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





oqvist said:


> Finally some light in the horizon... Seemed a bit pricey though if it really help with ev noise issue it would be worth it. I have a Yamaha RX-V663 receiver so the chances are pretty big I would run into such issues I suspect. I don´t think it has balanced outputs?


 
  It's got 4 banana jacks on the input and standard TRS 6.35mm jack on the output.   It comes with a 1ft. banana plug terminated pair of cables for connection to the speaker terminals.
http://www.aloaudio.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_87&products_id=316
  It would be easy enough to build one with a "balanced" output connector.


----------



## Nebby

I wasn't speaking of the headphone output connector but rather the output of the speaker amp being balanced/differential. If you have such a speaker amp then if the headphone adapter ties the "-" ports of the speaker amp together at any point, that would probably be a bad thing.
   


  Quote: 





oqvist said:


> Finally some light in the horizon... Seemed a bit pricey though if it really help with ev noise issue it would be worth it. I have a Yamaha RX-V663 receiver so the chances are pretty big I would run into such issues I suspect. I don´t think it has balanced outputs?


 
  Your receiver does not have balanced output, so it's not a concern for you. I actually think most people don't....I just wanted to put it out there in case anyone did.
   
  On second thought, anyone that actually has a balanced speaker amp probably knows this, so I guess my warning is redundant


----------



## oqvist

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> It's got 4 banana jacks on the input and standard TRS 6.35mm jack on the output.   It comes with a 1ft. banana plug terminated pair of cables for connection to the speaker terminals.
> http://www.aloaudio.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_87&products_id=316
> It would be easy enough to build one with a "balanced" output connector.


 

 Ugh that is a seriously dangerous homepage I may end up with more then that adapter


----------



## Solude

Given the LCD-2 cable is a speaker cable... just cut off the Neutrik, pull back the sheeth and try it.  If its not good... resolder the Neutrik.  Or and don't do this... marrets


----------



## oqvist

Well that was an idea. Can´t solder for a dime so the cable would get forfeit. You can´t damage the phones by misstaking the plus for minus?


----------



## Nebby

Phase would be wrong so the music would sound "odd", but as long as you don't somehow directly connect the plus to the minus there won't be any damage.
  
  Quote: 





oqvist said:


> Well that was an idea. Can´t solder for a dime so the cable would get forfeit. You can´t damage the phones by misstaking the plus for minus?


----------



## Radio_head

[size=medium]Just got my tracking number from Audeze, coming in on Wednesday.  I'll only have a couple hours to listen to them before a three day holiday starts that lasts until Saturday night.  Just checked Price Japan to get a Leben, and they're out!  Don't want to get from Tone Imports as they charge a third more.  I read somewhere they make this in batches, but I hope they don't have wait times as long as Eddie Current or headamp.  Anyway, since I'm kind of impatient I may be in the running for a different amp.  I want it to be able to drive speakers as well, plan on picking up some Magnepan's to round out the whole ortho thing.  I'll be using a PWD as a DAC.  Any amp suggestions?  ​[/size]


----------



## Duckman

The Apex Peak has arrived. Looking forward to getting it home.
   
  No Volcano yet. It is said to make all the difference. Couple more weeks.


----------



## superjohny

i was in the same situation as yours. Living in Australia, I just received a call from Fedex asking me to pay $243.5 OZ tax and duty. 
   
  That made the LCD-2 overall cost above AUD$1300!!(USD around $1235).
   
  i was also trying to grab a leben from price japan but since it's out of stock, i put my eye on a rudistor RP010B-mkII.
  General impression of this amp is the mid is recessed and laid back but i saw one head-fier actually claiming it had good forward mid and very punchy bass. 
   
  I am yet to find out about this as it costs nearly twice as a leben.
  
  and this time had i decided to purchase a rudistor, i hope they can claim the price under $1000 otherwise i might need to get charged another $1000 for tax and duty. it s*cks.....
  Quote: 





radio_head said:


>


 


> [size=medium]Just got my tracking number from Audeze, coming in on Wednesday.  I'll only have a couple hours to listen to them before a three day holiday starts that lasts until Saturday night.  Just checked Price Japan to get a Leben, and they're out!  Don't want to get from Tone Imports as they charge a third more.  I read somewhere they make this in batches, but I hope they don't have wait times as long as Eddie Current or headamp.  Anyway, since I'm kind of impatient I may be in the running for a different amp.  I want it to be able to drive speakers as well, plan on picking up some Magnepan's to round out the whole ortho thing.  I'll be using a PWD as a DAC.  Any amp suggestions?  ​[/size]


----------



## tisb0b

Weird Fedex only asked me to pay $176 from memory and I just received my LCD-2's today. 
  
  Quote: 





superjohny said:


> i was in the same situation as yours. Living in Australia, I just received a call from Fedex asking me to pay $243.5 OZ tax and duty.


----------



## Radio_head

Quote: 





superjohny said:


> i was also trying to grab a leben from price japan but since it's out of stock, i put my eye on a rudistor RP010B-mkII.
> General impression of this amp is the mid is recessed and laid back but i saw one head-fier actually claiming it had good forward mid and very punchy bass.
> 
> I am yet to find out about this as it costs nearly twice as a leben.
> ...


 
  Rudistor's just too controversial for me.  Too many respected members saying is stuff is total junk, (I seem to remember Spitzer being particularly vocal) and he pads his specs.  Maybe the WA5 would be more to my liking (although there's just so many tack-on fees to make me feel like I'm getting "the best" ie premium parts, tubes, rectifiers etc.)


----------



## hngls

Quote: 





superjohny said:


> i was in the same situation as yours. Living in Australia, I just received a call from Fedex asking me to pay $243.5 OZ tax and duty.
> 
> That made the LCD-2 overall cost above AUD$1300!!(USD around $1235).
> 
> ...


 
  Tax varies slightly according to xchange rates on the day, I forked out $228
  Here is the local distributor for Leben, beats having to be slapped with another hefty tax bill.


----------



## Duckman

Leben prices in Australia are extremely competitive.


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





radio_head said:


>


 


> Just got my tracking number from Audeze, coming in on Wednesday.  I'll only have a couple hours to listen to them before a three day holiday starts that lasts until Saturday night.  Just checked Price Japan to get a Leben, and they're out!  Don't want to get from Tone Imports as they charge a third more.  I read somewhere they make this in batches, but I hope they don't have wait times as long as Eddie Current or headamp.  Anyway, since I'm kind of impatient I may be in the running for a different amp.  I want it to be able to drive speakers as well, plan on picking up some Magnepan's to round out the whole ortho thing.  I'll be using a PWD as a DAC.  Any amp suggestions?  ​


 

 Just a mention about maggies. They wont run well on low powered tube amps. They need lots of watts and I recommend at least 100W solid state. The 80W Cary may do it but for the most part maggie user are using powerful SS amps.


----------



## superjohny

it really seems like i will soon put my v8p+little pinkie on for sale.....


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





superjohny said:


> it really seems like i will soon put my v8p+little pinkie on for sale.....


 

 I found my V3 sounded quite nice with the LCD2.


----------



## Francoy

Quote: 





sp wild said:


> I found my V3 sounded quite nice with the LCD2.


 

 Sorry to bother you wild, but did your X-can V3 sound superior with the LCD-2 than your BlackCube?


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





francoy said:


> Sorry to bother you wild, but did your X-can V3 sound superior with the LCD-2 than your BlackCube?


 

 For me the Black Cube is more defined and accurate.  The V3 is not as refined, defined, or as accurate...but can work an advantage for me at low level listening by blunting the LCD2s razor sharp transients.  Also Lunatique reported a deficiency at 2-3khz with a tiny portion of recordings (whether it's the recoding or the LCD2 is debatable) - but the V3 being a "forward" signature amp...bumps the frequency at exactly that zone...but at an expense of a slight upper treble roll off and a tiny sub bass roll-off as well. 
   
  Point being, be careful as one thinks one is upgrading, when in fact it is merely a side grade with signature.  But the BCL is clearly an upgrade over the V3 for me...yet at times the V3 can work an advantage.


----------



## blargman

Quote: 





knopi said:


> I had a little problem with clamp first 1-2 weeks, it wasn't pleasent but after 3 weeks it is very comfortable. Also I was not happy from the begining with LCD-2 although I felt big potencial, I don't know if it needed just more hours (burn). Now LCD-2 grow in my heart more and more. Probably the best audio purchase I have ever made. I have finally found what I am looking for a long time. I sold JH13 before I got LCD-2, LCD-2 blow away my JH13 from memory (according to me) very easily.
> As for the amp. I have positive experience with casea.eu so I will send LCD-2 to the Casea moreover they are going to release new hp/pre amp probably on autumn/winter and maker of this new amp will be modified it (if needed) for my LCD-2. It will be very interesting, at least for me


 

 What amp are you currently using?


----------



## blargman

Maximum undistorted output at 1 kHz: 4 V rms with 50 Ohm load connected to Hi Z output (= 0.32 W).
 Po(max)
 680 mW
 500 mW
 160 mW
 57 mW
 28 mW
 Rload
 25 Ω
 32 Ω
 100 Ω
 300 Ω
 600 Ω
  
  Is this good for these low impedance/low sensitivity cans?


----------



## knopi

Quote: 





blargman said:


> What amp are you currently using?


 

 Currently nothing I am waiting..


----------



## milford30

Hi,
 Has anyone compared the built in amp of the Nuforce HDP to the GHP? If so is it quiet a bit better (i.e justify forking out another 600USD for)? i've read the Nuforce HDP is on par with amps under $700 (from headphoneaddict's review in the HDP in the DAC section) is that still the case here with LCD-2?
  From what i have read in this trend, GHP is comparable to V200 (correct me if i'm wrong) how do these compare with concerto and the Cayin HA-1A SP Wild mentioned? i know it's solid state amps vs tube amps, and i do like the warmer signature of the tube amps, but people have reported the LCD-2 is quiet warm with a solid state amp already, it's always better to spend less if it doesn't make much of a difference, i also like the weight, size and shape of the GHP...
  Thank you in advance for your responses


----------



## SP Wild

I can say this about the Cayin...with the LCD2 in UL mode - it is less laid back than the BCL (and this is the case with the LCD2 only as with my other cans it is more laid back!) and has more of a treble presence.  The Triode mode is laid back, but with the same treble presence...so this amp is never dark and is in fact always a touch brighter than BCL in treble only - but these observations are made with stock tubes, and also the subbass extension is greater than the BCL.  The BCL has more control over the LCD2 drivers for better raw speed.  The Cayin also has more outright grunt than the BCL - and for low level listening, my favorite at the moment is the Cayin in SET mode.  Both BCL and Cayin is a step above the XcavV3 for me.  Soundstage and imaging is best on Cayin.


----------



## milford30

Thank you for your input, i'm leaing towards the cayin anyway, since my HDP has a solid state amp, a tube amp will be nice, it'll just be annoying how heavy it is when i move after i finish university.... i'm looking at a nice deal for cayin so it's not that much more expensive than the other amps i've mentioned....

  
  Quote: 





sp wild said:


> I can say this about the Cayin...with the LCD2 in UL mode - it is less laid back than the BCL (and this is the case with the LCD2 only as with my other cans it is more laid back!) and has more of a treble presence.  The Triode mode is laid back, but with the same treble presence...so this amp is never dark and is in fact always a touch brighter than BCL in treble only - but these observations are made with stock tubes, and also the subbass extension is greater than the BCL.  The BCL has more control over the LCD2 drivers for better raw speed.  The Cayin also has more outright grunt than the BCL - and for low level listening, my favorite at the moment is the Cayin in SET mode.  Both BCL and Cayin is a step above the XcavV3 for me.  Soundstage and imaging is best on Cayin.


----------



## oqvist

That Cayin HA-1A looks to be quite versatile amp. Would been nice to do a one on one with the Head One.
  Personally I have had better luck with the LCD-2 on my solid state amps though. It´s warm, lush and organic on it´s own and I like the ultimate realism I get out of my DAC19 DSP/GHP combination.
  I don´t think my Head One show of quite how fast the LCD-2 is either. Maybe just due to it´s softer transients more then anything and the big and heavy bass.
  I haven´t heard the UDP so can´t help much there. Really would be impressive if it would actually compare to amps like the GHP... But then I don´t think the GHP really belong in the sub 700$ category fir low impedances headphones anyway. The GHP for the LCD-2 I found to be a better match for the LCD-2 then the V200 and Auditor as mentioned earlier. Both which is quite a bit more expensive.


----------



## Francoy

Quote: 





sp wild said:


> For me the Black Cube is more defined and accurate.  The V3 is not as refined, defined, or as accurate...but can work an advantage for me at low level listening by blunting the LCD2s razor sharp transients.  Also Lunatique reported a deficiency at 2-3khz with a tiny portion of recordings (whether it's the recoding or the LCD2 is debatable) - but the V3 being a "forward" signature amp...bumps the frequency at exactly that zone...but at an expense of a slight upper treble roll off and a tiny sub bass roll-off as well.
> 
> Point being, be careful as one thinks one is upgrading, when in fact it is merely a side grade with signature.  But the BCL is clearly an upgrade over the V3 for me...yet at times the V3 can work an advantage.


 

 Thanx mate! Since I already own a V3 that I lent it to someone who asked me how much I wanted for it... I might just keep it to see how it handles the LCD-2 before deciding to sell.


----------



## Radio_head

Mine just came in this morning!  They were packaged very well, but I still saw some scratches in both the L and R blocks.  I'm not sure if they're surface scratches or actual cracks in the blocks.  I'm currently in between amps, but even unamped, two things were immediately apparent to me over my previous headphones (MD5K, Edition 9's, JH13's) :  Impact and separation.  Especially on rock music the impact was visceral and involving, but not overly fatiguing.  any vocal sibilance I heard will probably clear up when they're driven properly.  The ability of the JH13's to sound smooth and detailed at the same time are a combination that I'm not sure can be beaten with this headphone, although as I mentioned, the impact and separation of instruments is more noticeable and something I felt was sorely lacking with the JH13's.  I AB'ed this with my family (all of whom are opera singers or concert musicians) and they all preferred it greatly to anything I've showed them in the past.  (Anecdote=proof!)  I do not have any buyer's remorse with this purchase.


----------



## Cya|\|

What's the power consumption of the cayin with headphones? The site says 80w, and it's way too much for me. Wonder if with headphones it consumes less.


----------



## milford30

Thank you for your responce, after some more reading, it seems like the head one or concerto will be a better choice, i'm really interested in reading the compairson if anyone has heard both (preferably with the LCD-2 of course)
  Quote: 





oqvist said:


> That Cayin HA-1A looks to be quite versatile amp. Would been nice to do a one on one with the Head One.
> Personally I have had better luck with the LCD-2 on my solid state amps though. It´s warm, lush and organic on it´s own and I like the ultimate realism I get out of my DAC19 DSP/GHP combination.
> I don´t think my Head One show of quite how fast the LCD-2 is either. Maybe just due to it´s softer transients more then anything and the big and heavy bass.
> I haven´t heard the UDP so can´t help much there. Really would be impressive if it would actually compare to amps like the GHP... But then I don´t think the GHP really belong in the sub 700$ category fir low impedances headphones anyway. The GHP for the LCD-2 I found to be a better match for the LCD-2 then the V200 and Auditor as mentioned earlier. Both which is quite a bit more expensive.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote: 





milford30 said:


> Hi,
> Has anyone compared the built in amp of the Nuforce HDP to the GHP? If so is it quiet a bit better (i.e justify forking out another 600USD for)? i've read the Nuforce HDP is on par with amps under $700 (from headphoneaddict's review in the HDP in the DAC section) is that still the case here with LCD-2?
> From what i have read in this trend, GHP is comparable to V200 (correct me if i'm wrong) how do these compare with concerto and the Cayin HA-1A SP Wild mentioned? i know it's solid state amps vs tube amps, and i do like the warmer signature of the tube amps, but people have reported the LCD-2 is quiet warm with a solid state amp already, it's always better to spend less if it doesn't make much of a difference, i also like the weight, size and shape of the GHP...
> Thank you in advance for your responses


 

 Well, I think what I was trying to say is that among the amps I've heard that one would have to spend about $700 to cleanly beat it.  There are a lot of amps out there that I haven't heard.
   
  Only three amps in my house are better, and that's my maxed WA6 with Sophia 274b rectifier, ALO Amphora (in sound but not power), and Eddie Current ZDT which beats them all.  My EF5 is a just little below the HDP except for having more power, and my SAC KH1000 amp also has more power than the HDP but I can't say that the sound is any better.  (And those two amps don't work well with IEM)  
   
  [edit - actually with listening to my LCD-2 I'd say the HDP is better to my ear than the SAC KH1000 amp, but with HD600 they are on a similar level, and with HE-5 LE or HE-6 the SAC might be slightly better - so it depends on the phones being used]


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





cya|\| said:


> What's the power consumption of the cayin with headphones? The site says 80w, and it's way too much for me. Wonder if with headphones it consumes less.


 

 This amp shows 13.8 volts X 6 amps power draw from my inverter - so at least 80 watts, being pure class A means it draws this much power regardless of load.


----------



## milford30

Thank You for your responce, i didn't explain myself clearly either i was under the assumption that anything less than $700 is probably not worth forking out the extra money for.... it is annoying how so many reviews are different, i.e the LCD-2 does better with a solid state amp... while other comments on tube amp sounds better at lower volumes.....
  sorry for bouncing around between tube and solid state.... for the forseeable future ($$$ restrictions) i will not be upgrading... i reckon i can spend a bit more on the amp.... will the WA6SE (not maxxed) be a nice investment? or other amps (tube near/under the $1000 mark) should also be considered?
  also i assume stock WA6 would probably not be powerful for the LCD-2 correct?
   
  Your responces will be much appriciated...

  
  Quote: 





headphoneaddict said:


> Well, I think what I was trying to say is that among the amps I've heard that one would have to spend about $700 to cleanly beat it.  There are a lot of amps out there that I haven't heard.
> 
> Only three amps in my house are better, and that's my maxed WA6 with Sophia 274b rectifier, ALO Amphora (in sound but not power), and Eddie Current ZDT which beats them all.  My EF5 is a just little below the HDP except for having more power, and my SAC KH1000 amp also has more power than the HDP but I can't say that the sound is any better.  (And those two amps don't work well with IEM)
> 
> [edit - actually with listening to my LCD-2 I'd say the HDP is better to my ear than the SAC KH1000 amp, but with HD600 they are on a similar level, and with HE-5 LE or HE-6 the SAC might be slightly better - so it depends on the phones being used]


----------



## oqvist

Tube amps are different as is solid states so you won´t get an straight answer here. Some always preferr tubes regardless of headphones it seems.. Other preferr solid states more often then not. There is solid states that is suggested being "tubey" sounding as in coloured I suppose and there is tube amps that are really quite neutral and transparent. What I like with solid states though is less hassle. You can run them 24/7 without overheating or shortening the lifespan of tubes. Often lighter, smaller and more practical to move around. And cheaper on the electricity bill more often then not.


----------



## Currawong

There are a few different types of tube amp.  The ones to avoid for the LCD-2s are OTL (Output Transformer-Less) as due to their high output impedance, they only work well with high impedance headphones.  Transformer-coupled designs are OTL amps with a couple of transformers for output for low-impedance headphones (or speakers).  These are fine. Hybrids are fine too (very often solid-state amps with tubes replacing some part of the gain stage, but still with a solid-state circuit for the output).


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





currawong said:


> There are a few different types of tube amp.  The ones to avoid for the LCD-2s are OTL (Output Transformer-Less) as due to their high output impedance, they only work well with high impedance headphones.  Transformer-coupled designs are OTL amps with a couple of transformers for output for low-impedance headphones (or speakers).  These are fine. Hybrids are fine too (very often solid-state amps with tubes replacing some part of the gain stage, but still with a solid-state circuit for the output).


 

 Disagree with the OTL. My CSP-2 is an OTL design and plays the LCD2 at less than 1/3 volume and drives them effortlessly. It is also very musical and it has not shown any signs of stress. It works fine. So as always try before. Mine was designed to play headphones 30-600 ohms and is the best match for me.


----------



## milford30

yea your probably right, just realized WA6SE weights in at 11kgs..... that's probably a bit heavy and space consuming for me right now.. hmmm..... back to my original decision of GHP or concerto then since they cost the same amount due to western union fees, which i must say seems to be a rip off here it's like 10% of the amp.... more than the taxes of some places....
   
  Has anyone heard both the Meier Concerto and the Nuforce HDP that can give me some comparisons on if it's worth the upgrade in the amp section wihile keeping the HDP as the dac?
   
  i knew i should have taken more electronics... would have gotten a better mark and be useful now.....
  
  Quote: 





oqvist said:


> Tube amps are different as is solid states so you won´t get an straight answer here. Some always preferr tubes regardless of headphones it seems.. Other preferr solid states more often then not. There is solid states that is suggested being "tubey" sounding as in coloured I suppose and there is tube amps that are really quite neutral and transparent. What I like with solid states though is less hassle. You can run them 24/7 without overheating or shortening the lifespan of tubes. Often lighter, smaller and more practical to move around. And cheaper on the electricity bill more often then not.


----------



## Currawong

Quote: 





frank i said:


> Disagree with the OTL. My CSP-2 is an OTL design and plays the LCD2 at less than 1/3 volume and drives them effortlessly. It is also very musical and it has not shown any signs of stress. It works fine. So as always try before. Mine was designed to play headphones 30-600 ohms and is the best match for me.


 

 Fair enough.  Yours is an exception to the rule as most of the OTL amps I've seen have an output impedance of 100 Ohms.  I'll have to add the CSP-2 to my list of amps to try in the future then.


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





currawong said:


> Fair enough.  Yours is an exception to the rule as most of the OTL amps I've seen have an output impedance of 100 Ohms.  I'll have to add the CSP-2 to my list of amps to try in the future then.


 

 The funnny thing is the Denons D7000 does not play as well on it. The Denon is 25ohms so I use the SS amp for that. Listening to Patricia Barber Cafe Blue was a revelation of wha these LCD2 can do with percussion and Bass.


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





currawong said:


> Fair enough.  Yours is an exception to the rule as most of the OTL amps I've seen have an output impedance of 100 Ohms.  I'll have to add the CSP-2 to my list of amps to try in the future then.


 

 Output imepdance is <60ohms for the CSP-2 and the new model has adjustable voltage setting to further dial in a can. Lifetime warranty from Decware is pretty unusal for any manufacturer and is point to point


----------



## oqvist

It should be below 50 for the LCD-2 though. If it works it works though.
   
  Milford the Head One is 7,5 kg and also quite bulky. It´s not something you move around to often with those beasts of traformators.


----------



## Cya|\|

Quote: 





sp wild said:


> This amp shows 13.8 volts X 6 amps power draw from my inverter - so at least 80 watts, being pure class A means it draws this much power regardless of load.


 

 Even regardless the volume?


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





oqvist said:


> It should be below 50 for the LCD-2 though. If it works it works though.
> 
> Milford the Head One is 7,5 kg and also quite bulky. It´s not something you move around to often with those beasts of traformators.


 

 It works fine and it is less than 60ohm so its anice match for me and sounds very transparent. I do believe SS amps give more bass slam but the bass on the Decware is very detailed and the amp is dynamic and perfect for jazz and classical music. SS amp I use for rock and when I really want to hear that bass slam.


----------



## Skylab

Decware only specifies "Less than 60 ohms" for the output impedance of the CSP-2.  It may actually be below 50, which is why it works reasonably well for the LCD-2, but still not for the 27 ohm Denon.  I actually thought the transformer-coupled WA6 was a better match for the LCD-2 than the WA6, which is why I sold the CSP-2 and bought a Decware Mini-Torii (which is transformer-coupled) to use with the LCD-2 instead - I like Decware amps a lot, but for the LCD-2, the Mini-Torii is a better fit than the CSP-2, albeit at twice the price.  The CSP-2, on the other hand, works reasonably well with the LCD-2 and outstandingly with Frank's T1's as well, whereas the Mini-Torii does not work as well with 600 ohm headphones.
   
  Moral of the story - amp and headphone matching requires some degree of care, for sure.


----------



## jcx

Quote: 





frank i said:


> Disagree with the OTL. My CSP-2 is an OTL design and plays the LCD2 at less than 1/3 volume and drives them effortlessly. It is also very musical and it has not shown any signs of stress. It works fine. So as always try before. Mine was designed to play headphones 30-600 ohms and is the best match for me.


 

 no single "minature" tube is capable of directly driving the LCD-2 to full potential - look for o~ 1+ liter of output tubes total physical size to get the 100's of mA that the LCD-2 wants if using a OTL tube amp
   
  the CSP-2's 6N1P tube's 20mA continuous plate current rating limits output drive in Class A applications: SRPP may double that but even 40 mA peak current is inadequate for the LCD-2's low impedance & sensitivity if you want to reach some real world acoustic music's dynamic peak SPL
   
  with favorable assumptions you would have less than 40 mWrms drive into 50 Ohms, for  ~108 dB SPL peak @ clipping in current limit from LCD-2 driven with CSP-2 - good enough for all day safe "background music" average levels, or "Loudness War" dynamic range compressed music but not really adequate for true reproduction of some live music levels that an audiophile might enjoy as infrequent treats
   
  as a reference Dolby compliant movie theaters reach over 115 dB and Symphonic crescendos may reach >120 dB - live, amplified Club or Rock Concert levels are too loud with >130 dB peaks reported but reproducing Big Band Jazz or Classical Orchestral music at live event SPL levels should be a reasonable audiophile goal for a given headphone, amp combo
   
  volume control setting is only indicative of Voltage gain - with low Z load the tubes run out of current first and could easily be clipping in current limt at only "1/3 volume" setting


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





jcx said:


> no single "minature" tube is capable of directly driving the LCD-2 to full potential - look for o~ 1+ liter of output tubes total physical size to get the 100's of mA that the LCD-2 wants if using a OTL tube amp
> 
> the CSP-2's 6N1P tube's 20mA continuous plate current rating limits output drive in Class A applications: SRPP may double that but even 40 mA peak current is inadequate for the LCD-2's low impedance & sensitivity if you want to reach some real world acoustic music's dynamic peak SPL
> 
> ...


 

 well for one its not used for movies. You can use any technical jargon you choose the amp drives them as also noted by Skylab. I have a SS amp that gives it more open stage but unless you have heard the amp and there have been three others who have heard the amp and it drives them sufficiently/


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





frank i said:


> well for one its not used for movies. You can use any technical jargon you choose the amp drives them as also noted by Skylab. I have a SS amp that gives it more open stage but unless you have heard the amp and there have been three others who have heard the amp and it drives them sufficiently/


 

 And you dont list your gear so no way of know what you have and what you heard. Unless you hear something its hard to make an opinion


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Decware only specifies "Less than 60 ohms" for the output impedance of the CSP-2.  It may actually be below 50, which is why it works reasonably well for the LCD-2, but still not for the 27 ohm Denon.  I actually thought the transformer-coupled WA6 was a better match for the LCD-2 than the WA6, which is why I sold the CSP-2 and bought a Decware Mini-Torii (which is transformer-coupled) to use with the LCD-2 instead - I like Decware amps a lot, but for the LCD-2, the Mini-Torii is a better fit than the CSP-2, albeit at twice the price.  The CSP-2, on the other hand, works reasonably well with the LCD-2 and outstandingly with Frank's T1's as well, whereas the Mini-Torii does not work as well with 600 ohm headphones.
> 
> Moral of the story - amp and headphone matching requires some degree of care, for sure.


 
  Thanks Rob for your input. But the problem for me with the Woo 6 is it did not sound as good with the T1 so it makes sense to keep this amp and use that and I am getting good sound from the LCD2 and as we know there is always better matches based on the price you spend. For my budget the solution would be to buy another amp and maybe at some point I will do that but for now the Decware is getting the job done and I use the SS amp for the Denon and sometimes for the LCD2


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





jcx said:


> no single "minature" tube is capable of directly driving the LCD-2 to full potential - look for o~ 1+ liter of output tubes total physical size to get the 100's of mA that the LCD-2 wants if using a OTL tube amp
> 
> the CSP-2's 6N1P tube's 20mA continuous plate current rating limits output drive in Class A applications: SRPP may double that but even 40 mA peak current is inadequate for the LCD-2's low impedance & sensitivity if you want to reach some real world acoustic music's dynamic peak SPL
> 
> ...


 


  I can absolutely guarantee that I never came close to 108dB peaks when trying the LCD-2 with the CSP-2, nor would I ever want to.  But YMMV.
   
  For me the issue is more about damping factor that power delivery, as it relates to the LCD-2 and OTL amps.


----------



## Frank I

I listen 1/3 up and that is sufficient. Even with the 400MW Matrix I never go over 8:30-9 as its too loud. I have not measured the SPL level but I should do it so I know how loud I am listening. I prefer lower listening levels. But headbangers will want a heavy hitting SS amp or tube amp with more power to really do that.


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





cya|\| said:


> Even regardless the volume?


 

 regardless of volume.


----------



## kwkarth

A couple of observations and comments to share.
   
  First; damping factor has virtually nothing to do with sound on the LCD-2.  As a planar magnetic driver, it's diaphragm does not rely upon nor can it be affected by damping factor.  Current delivery is what the LCD-2 relies upon.
   
  Second;  We've mostly decided that an OTL tube amp is not the way to go with the LCD-2s.  Someone posted good results with the Woo WA2 many pages back which made me curious about that amp.  I've been spending the past couple of days listening to it and the WA3, driving the T1s and the LCD-2s.  Obviously both Woo amps do well with the T1s.  They're beautiful and compelling.  To my surprise, the WA2 sounds quite nice with the LCD-2, and has seemingly plenty of gain and headroom for it.  The bass of the LCD-2 is up ever so slightly with the WA2 on some pieces of music, but not so much that it ruins the presentation.  I can recommend the WA2 for audition for the LCD-2s, particularly knowing how wonderfully well it does with the Beyer T1s at the same time.  Give it a listen!
   
  Third;  Surprise out of left field...  While auditioning the WA2 and WA3, I also had the KingRex Headquarters set up for a listen and it seems like a real winner with the LCD-2.  To my ears, on this project, the KingRex does for the LCD-2s what the WA2 does for the Beyer T1s.  It's definitely worth a listen!


----------



## oqvist

How does it compare to the Burson HA-160? Can find both locally.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





oqvist said:


> How does it compare to the Burson HA-160? Can find both locally.


 

 So far, the KingRex seems to be much more delicate and refined than the Burson HA-160.  To my ear, the Burson, while not bad, seems like a blunt, crude club when compared to the KingRex which seems more like a finely honed Samurai sword.  I hope that makes sense.  They're both nice amps in their own way, but the Rex comes across to be both sonically and aesthetically as much more refined, better able to act delicately when the program calls for it, and still well able to wield all the power needed to slice and dice anything.
   
  I have not pushed the Rex to its limits yet, but it seems to have more power than its specs indicate.  Nice power supply, nice low noise floor with better imaging and separation between instruments when compared to the Burson.


----------



## SP Wild

Thanks for the suggestions Kevin.  Please keep those impressions flowing through, your input has been of great value to me.  Cheers.


----------



## Cya|\|

So my decision to drop the audio gd fun with discrete opamp is final.
  I've already paid for a BCL clone (not the m-stage, but one with better components).
  Now i'm undecided for the dac. I found a chinese dac on ebay, wich fully assembled costs 250$ shipping included. Decware copied the design, so you can see how the circit looks, on decware dac site. It's a opamp based design, but the seller provides good opa627. And that's for a fraction of the price.
  But i've also just found a pcm1794 based dac, this one is fully discrete, and the SE edition costs 350$ shipping included.
  I really dunno wich one to get 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. I'm a starving student (though i got some money left from summer work). I wonder if the fully discrete pcm1794 dac is really worth the extra money for me, who don't have much money.


----------



## blargman

Everyone keeps suggesting you buy an amp with an output impedance lower than 50.
  Is this amp lower than 50?
  http://hollowstate.netfirms.com/Super2manual.pdf
   
  It says Output impedance at 1kHz is 2.6ohm or 1.3ohm.
   
  Is that what you are referring to?


----------



## Solude

Yes 1.3 is below 50


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> A couple of observations and comments to share.
> 
> First; damping factor has virtually nothing to do with sound on the LCD-2.  As a planar magnetic driver, it's diaphragm does not rely upon nor can it be affected by damping factor.  Current delivery is what the LCD-2 relies upon.
> 
> ...


 

 Interesting and good info, Kevin, thanks..  So the fact that a OTL amp would likely have an output impedance higher than the LCD-2's impedance doesn't really matter due to it being planar?  I did not realize that.  This is due to the fact that the movement of the diaphragm is different?
   
  Also sounds like I need to try my WA2 with the LCD-2...I had stayed away from that combo.  That would be cool if they work together as the WA2 is indeed spectacular with the T1.
   
  And lastly, I hope your comment about the KingRex HeadQuarter means they have come out with an improved version, as the one I was sent to review really did not sound all that great, IMO.


----------



## blargman

Funny guy 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 , So this is like the overall impedance of the entire circuit? I'm more trying to clear up noob ideas of EE theory.
   
  What do you think of that amp for the LCD-2? Specwise at least if you haven't heard it.  I just have a want to try a Mapletree amp, for no particular reason.


----------



## Frank I

The interesting thing is that they work with OTL amps as well. So preference is what is important there is more bass slam with SS amp at least with mine but better more detailed sound and still good bass with my tube amp.


----------



## oqvist

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> So far, the KingRex seems to be much more delicate and refined than the Burson HA-160.  To my ear, the Burson, while not bad, seems like a blunt, crude club when compared to the KingRex which seems more like a finely honed Samurai sword.  I hope that makes sense.  They're both nice amps in their own way, but the Rex comes across to be both sonically and aesthetically as much more refined, better able to act delicately when the program calls for it, and still well able to wield all the power needed to slice and dice anything.
> 
> I have not pushed the Rex to its limits yet, but it seems to have more power than its specs indicate.  Nice power supply, nice low noise floor with better imaging and separation between instruments when compared to the Burson.


 
   
  Thanks. The KingRex is smoother I take it but is it at the same time more dynamic then the Burson? It sounded like it handles crescendos really well 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  Will see if I can get a chance to audition it.


----------



## Solude

Quote: 





blargman said:


> Funny guy
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Its the impedance as seen by the output.  Think of it as a series resistor with the headphone.  Dampening factor is simple the can impendance over the output impendance.  So 50/1.3 ~38 which is fine.  Power wise its probably fine depending on how loud you listen.  Won't push 120dB but 80dB shouldn't be a problem.  At that price the WA6SE might be a safer choice.


----------



## blargman

Thanks for the info. If you don't mind endulging me a bit more. How did you calculate the 80dB number?


----------



## Solude

Didn't just pulled it as a fairly easy goal to reach for pretty much any amp.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





cya|\| said:


> So my decision to drop the audio gd fun with discrete opamp is final.
> I've already paid for a BCL clone (not the m-stage, but one with better components).
> Now i'm undecided for the dac. I found a chinese dac on ebay, wich fully assembled costs 250$ shipping included. Decware copied the design, so you can see how the circit looks, on decware dac site. It's a opamp based design, but the seller provides good opa627. And that's for a fraction of the price.
> But i've also just found a pcm1794 based dac, this one is fully discrete, and the SE edition costs 350$ shipping included.
> ...


 
  In that price range, it is very, very, hard to beat the PopPulse PCM 1796 MkII which in Portland sells for $259.00  That's a very well designed and built DAC for the dinero.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





oqvist said:


> Thanks. The KingRex is smoother I take it but is it at the same time more dynamic then the Burson? It sounded like it handles crescendos really well
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Yeah, I haven't heard the KingRex fall apart yet.  The Burson reminds me a bit of my SAC K1000 amp.  It's a balanced BJT based amp, which for its time, was state of the art, but now shows its age when compared to newer class A MosFET based designs like the KingRex and Asgard.  YMMV.  The SAC has tons of punch and drive, but it is not as fast and resolving with the micro details and minutiae of a recording.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the KingRex is any sort of a benchmark here, but it does work well to drive the Audeze, and compared to the Burson, it strikes me as being faster with better inner detail.


----------



## Currawong

I've been thinking, for me at least, between the the Phoenix and Stacker II that I have here, I prefer the former because (after a positive bias adjustment) it's more aggressive, which, being that I generally don't like the HD-650 school of frequency response in my headphones, is a better match for me with the LCD-2s.  The Stacker is very sweet (it sounds like the tubes, which in the case of the 6GQ7s in it now, means like a Stax amp) and pairs beautifully with my Symphones Magnums, which have a more common brighter treble. It still sounds very good with the LCD-2s though.


----------



## blargman

What DAC do you run with your Phoenix Currawong?


----------



## TigzStudio

Glad to hear you are enjoying the Stacker II, I do miss it from time to time .  I never compared the Phoenix to the Stacker II, but I did compare it to the Roc.  After doing my bias adjustments on the Roc to absolutely the best I could (hours of time spent) I was able to get it close to the Stacker II, but it always had this sense of dryness.  The Roc did however have amazing speed/dynamics/detail with the LCD-2's.  But, basically to me the Stacker II was able to give you that tube sound and very lifelike natural tones with the LCD-2's, along with some pretty sweet dynamics.  In my current rig I am trying to get as close neutral as I possibly can, to my ears.  I also have great resources to compare my rig against (friends with decked out studios, other audiophile friends with some very nice rigs).
   
  Do you feel the Phoenix has its own character it gives to the music, or does it seem like a "wire with gain" type?  
  Quote: 





currawong said:


> I've been thinking, for me at least, between the the Phoenix and Stacker II that I have here, I prefer the former because (after a positive bias adjustment) it's more aggressive, which, being that I generally don't like the HD-650 school of frequency response in my headphones, is a better match for me with the LCD-2s.  The Stacker is very sweet (it sounds like the tubes, which in the case of the 6GQ7s in it now, means like a Stax amp) and pairs beautifully with my Symphones Magnums, which have a more common brighter treble. It still sounds very good with the LCD-2s though.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Interesting and good info, Kevin, thanks..  So the fact that a OTL amp would likely have an output impedance higher than the LCD-2's impedance doesn't really matter due to it being planar?  I did not realize that.  This is due to the fact that the movement of the diaphragm is different?
> 
> Also sounds like I need to try my WA2 with the LCD-2...I had stayed away from that combo.  That would be cool if they work together as the WA2 is indeed spectacular with the T1.
> 
> And lastly, I hope your comment about the KingRex HeadQuarter means they have come out with an improved version, as the one I was sent to review really did not sound all that great, IMO.


 

 Yes, the diaphragm movement / suspension / damping is different from a conventional cone type driver.
   
  Here's the deal...Any planar magnetic driver is driven uniformly from its entire diaphragm, not just from the center like a conventional cone type dynamic driver.  A conventional cone driver is a spring loaded mass suspended by the annulus around the cone.  As any device with a suspended mass, it will have a resonant frequency based upon the compliance of the suspension vs. the mass that is suspended.  As a cone resonates, it drags the voice coil through the fixed magnetic field.  This coil cutting the magnetic field generates electricity.  This is how a dynamic microphone works.  In a speaker, when you short out the current generated by the moving coil, it dampens the motion of the diaphragm resonance.  This works just like the electric brake on an electric drill motor.  Remove your finger from the trigger and the drill stops turning instantly.  Doing so simply shorts the motor windings, effectively damping the motor.  So it is, with damping factors and driver cone resonance in a conventional headphone or loudspeaker driver.
   
  With a planar magnetic driver, the diaphragm motion is excited by passing current through a wire attached across the face of the diaphragm and not controlled by passing a coil of wire through a focused magnetic field, diaphragm resonance is damped mechanically & pneumatically rather than electrically in a planar driver.  So, while a high damping factor/very low impedance output has little effect on planar driver damping, it does affect the amplifier's ability to deliver current into the load.  The higher the output impedance of an amplifier, the more energy (power)  is lost in IR (current times resistance) losses due to internal resistance, rather than that energy being delivered to the load.


----------



## Skylab

Thanks Kevin, that was very helpful. I've owned Magnepan planar magnetic speakers for years, and understood well how the driver works to make sound, but didn't get the part about damping. Appreciate the explanation.


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





blargman said:


> Funny guy
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I can confirm that my MAD tube amp runs the LCD-2s very well. Although, I think I prefer the Concerto (disclaimer: subject to change with some more listening time and tube rolling).


----------



## Currawong

Quote: 





blargman said:


> What DAC do you run with your Phoenix Currawong?


 

 Audio-gd Reference 1.

  
  Quote: 





tigzstudio said:


> Glad to hear you are enjoying the Stacker II, I do miss it from time to time .  I never compared the Phoenix to the Stacker II, but I did compare it to the Roc.  After doing my bias adjustments on the Roc to absolutely the best I could (hours of time spent) I was able to get it close to the Stacker II, but it always had this sense of dryness.  The Roc did however have amazing speed/dynamics/detail with the LCD-2's.  But, basically to me the Stacker II was able to give you that tube sound and very lifelike natural tones with the LCD-2's, along with some pretty sweet dynamics.  In my current rig I am trying to get as close neutral as I possibly can, to my ears.  I also have great resources to compare my rig against (friends with decked out studios, other audiophile friends with some very nice rigs).
> 
> Do you feel the Phoenix has its own character it gives to the music, or does it seem like a "wire with gain" type?


 
   
  The Phoenix is designed to be "wire with gain", same as the Roc.  I like it this way.  The penalty is, however, changing anything in your system at all is noticeable, no matter how small.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote: 





milford30 said:


> Thank You for your responce, i didn't explain myself clearly either i was under the assumption that anything less than $700 is probably not worth forking out the extra money for.... it is annoying how so many reviews are different, i.e the LCD-2 does better with a solid state amp... while other comments on tube amp sounds better at lower volumes.....
> sorry for bouncing around between tube and solid state.... for the forseeable future ($$$ restrictions) i will not be upgrading... i reckon i can spend a bit more on the amp.... will the WA6SE (not maxxed) be a nice investment? or other amps (tube near/under the $1000 mark) should also be considered?
> also i assume stock WA6 would probably not be powerful for the LCD-2 correct?
> 
> Your responces will be much appriciated...


 

 I haven't heard the WA6SE, but everything I've read says it's better (even non-maxed) than my maxed WA6.  My WA6 has enough power for the LCD-2, but I don't normally listen at ear splitting levels.


----------



## nigeljames

Just bought a second hand LCD-2.
  Should receive it early next week.
  Will report back on how it sounds with my Woo6se/Roc.


----------



## Cya|\|

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> In that price range, it is very, very, hard to beat the PopPulse PCM 1796 MkII which in Portland sells for $259.00  That's a very well designed and built DAC for the dinero.


 
  Thx a lot! I've just seen it's pictures, and the build quality seems impressive. Also, it does have the r core, wich is the kind of transformer i prefer the most.
  I'll definitly look into it, and i may drop the idea to get the gigawork.


----------



## tunarat

Quote: 





cya|\| said:


> Thx a lot! I've just seen it's pictures, and the build quality seems impressive. Also, it does have the r core, wich is the kind of transformer i prefer the most.
> I'll definitly look into it, and i may drop the idea to get the gigawork.


 

 I picked up one a few weeks ago from ALO to use with my laptop setup. For the price, I really don't think you can beat it.


----------



## Frihed89

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> Yes, the diaphragm movement / suspension / damping is different from a conventional cone type driver.
> 
> Here's the deal...Any planar magnetic driver is driven uniformly from its entire diaphragm, not just from the center like a conventional cone type dynamic driver.  A conventional cone driver is a spring loaded mass suspended by the annulus around the cone.  As any device with a suspended mass, it will have a resonant frequency based upon the compliance of the suspension vs. the mass that is suspended.  As a cone resonates, it drags the voice coil through the fixed magnetic field.  This coil cutting the magnetic field generates electricity.  This is how a dynamic microphone works.  In a speaker, when you short out the current generated by the moving coil, it dampens the motion of the diaphragm resonance.  This works just like the electric brake on an electric drill motor.  Remove your finger from the trigger and the drill stops turning instantly.  Doing so simply shorts the motor windings, effectively damping the motor.  So it is, with damping factors and driver cone resonance in a conventional headphone or loudspeaker driver.
> 
> With a planar magnetic driver, the diaphragm motion is excited by passing current through a wire attached across the face of the diaphragm and not controlled by passing a coil of wire through a focused magnetic field, diaphragm resonance is damped mechanically & pneumatically rather than electrically in a planar driver.  So, while a high damping factor/very low impedance output has little effect on planar driver damping, it does affect the amplifier's ability to deliver current into the load.  The higher the output impedance of an amplifier, the more energy (power)  is lost in IR (current times resistance) losses due to internal resistance, rather than that energy being delivered to the load.


 

 Does this mean it is better to drive the LCD-2s through a low impedance tap (say 6 or 8 ohms) than try to match the match the load impedance through a conventional output transformer? I wonder how a paraphase transformer would work compared to a conventional OPT?


----------



## Frihed89

Despite the high output impedance of OTLs, I just dusted off my SinglePower MPX-3 Slam SE and plugged in the LCD-2s.  I am using a 6BL7GTA input tube and 5687 output tubes.  Sounds very good to me.  With this and my SBH I think I am all set.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





frihed89 said:


> Does this mean it is better to drive the LCD-2s through a low impedance tap (say 6 or 8 ohms) than try to match the match the load impedance through a conventional output transformer? I wonder how a paraphase transformer would work compared to a conventional OPT?


 
  As long as the power delivery is very clean with a low noise floor then it should work fine.  Just remember that even though the LCD-2s will handle prodigious amounts of power, they are at least 91dB/mW sensitive at the same time so they will reveal any low level noise problems in your system.   I'm not familiar with the term "paraphase" transformer.


----------



## Frihed89

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> As long as the power delivery is very clean with a low noise floor then it should work fine.  Just remember that even though the LCD-2s will handle prodigious amounts of power, they are at least 91dB/mW sensitive at the same time so they will reveal any low level noise problems in your system.   I'm not familiar with the term "paraphase" transformer.


 
  That's because I meant parallel transformers, like those made by Magnquest for Bottlehead amps. I was thinking about a paraphase splitter for a new amp before i posted and then my mind jumped to transformers. Sorry.


----------



## CountChoculaBot

Skylab, I'm really interesting in getting a Mini Torii to amp my LCD2's.  Could you give a brief description of its sound signature?  I'm mostly looking for that stereotypical tube sound of lushness, warmth, etc.  Also interested in just _how_ close it is to the Leben... 80%? 90%?  Thanks man =]


----------



## Haidar

Headphone jacks could also be added to the Triode Integrated
   
  http://www.decware.com/newsite/SE34I.htm
   
  and the Torii Mk III
   
  http://www.decware.com/newsite/TORII.htm
   
   
  How would these two compare to the Mini TORII as amps for the LCD-2?


----------



## CountChoculaBot

Only S Deckert would know the answer to that, but at least for the latter amp, from what I read it's just a Mini Torii except with 4x the power.  I'd expect it'd sound the same as a result.  I don't think the Mini Torii would be lacking in power for the LCD2 so I personally am not worried about the possibility that not buying a Torii MKIII would be a mistake.


----------



## Radio_head

[size=medium]I'm investing in my first (serious) home rig right now.  I have a macbook pro, and ordered a (highly) discounted PWD.  I'm thinking ZDT as an amp for my LCD-2/HD800. Any better way to spend my money amp-wise?​[/size]


----------



## Duckman

In that price bracket, there is the Leben CS300 or the Peak/Volcano combo. Both highly recommended in previous posts. I'm guessing the new Cavalli amps would be up there too.


----------



## sachu

Don't know about the ZDT being a good amp for the LCD-2..no comment on the HD800 however.
   
   
  Radio_head, Pm dBel84..he's got the Cavalli Audio LIquid Fire prototype and is in Milwaukee Wisconsin ow. Am sure he'd be willing to hook up with some local HFiers and give you a taste of the new CA amp.


----------



## Radio_head

Thanks for the tip.  See if we can get a milwaukee LCD-2 meet going.


----------



## sachu

sweet!!  you'll probably even get to hear the famed Wharfedale Zebrawods and other choice orthos tuned by the master.


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





countchoculabot said:


> Skylab, I'm really interesting in getting a Mini Torii to amp my LCD2's.  Could you give a brief description of its sound signature?  I'm mostly looking for that stereotypical tube sound of lushness, warmth, etc.  Also interested in just _how_ close it is to the Leben... 80%? 90%?  Thanks man =]


 

 The Mini-Torri is a seriously good match for the LCD-2.  It does have a touch of tube romanticism, but it's far from syrupy.  It's also VERY dynamic and powerful sounding.  Bass is powerful and punchy - not quite as well defined as on some SS amps, but actually quite close.  And there are a lot of tube rolling options with the input tubes (12AU7 and variants) and the power tubes (which are 6V6 by default but can be 6L6 or 6Y6 as well), so you can definitely tweak the sound some.  The best sound I got was using the 12BH7 in place of the 12AU7 for the input tubes, a trick I learned from the RSA Stealth.  I have rolled a few different 6V6G's, but have not tried any of the others.  It's a HIGHLY enjoyable pairing - the best amp I have heard with the LCD-2 except for the Lebel, which I do still think is better.  Hard to say how much, but given how much easier and cheaper it is to get a Mini-Torri, the Decware is a pretty attractive proposition.


----------



## SP Wild

Hi guys.  I know this is an LCD2 amping thread and don not mean to derail this thread, however the importance of source has been touched over and I have found that my $3000AUS Bryston DAC to give me far superior results from the likes of the Dacmagic.  However I have stumbled on a $60 dac that I prefer far more than the Dacmagic and, as impossible as it sounds, I definitely preferred it over the Bryston DAC, using the HD800 - I do not believe my opinion will change when I get my LCD2 back.


----------



## CountChoculaBot

Quote: 





skylab said:


> The Mini-Torri is a seriously good match for the LCD-2.  It does have a touch of tube romanticism, but it's far from syrupy.  It's also VERY dynamic and powerful sounding.  Bass is powerful and punchy - not quite as well defined as on some SS amps, but actually quite close.  And there are a lot of tube rolling options with the input tubes (12AU7 and variants) and the power tubes (which are 6V6 by default but can be 6L6 or 6Y6 as well), so you can definitely tweak the sound some.  The best sound I got was using the 12BH7 in place of the 12AU7 for the input tubes, a trick I learned from the RSA Stealth.  I have rolled a few different 6V6G's, but have not tried any of the others.  It's a HIGHLY enjoyable pairing - the best amp I have heard with the LCD-2 except for the Lebel, which I do still think is better.  Hard to say how much, but given how much easier and cheaper it is to get a Mini-Torri, the Decware is a pretty attractive proposition.


 

 Thanks for the input.  From what I've read the WA6 is a tube amp that leans towards solid state a good bit; would you say the Mini Torii leans towards solid state as the WA6 does to a higher or a lower degree?


----------



## Cya|\|

Quote: 





sp wild said:


> Hi guys.  I know this is an LCD2 amping thread and don not mean to derail this thread, however the importance of source has been touched over and I have found that my $3000AUS Bryston DAC to give me far superior results from the likes of the Dacmagic.  However I have stumbled on a $60 dac that I prefer far more than the Dacmagic and, as impossible as it sounds, I definitely preferred it over the Bryston DAC, using the HD800 - I do not believe my opinion will change when I get my LCD2 back.


 

 Thx a lot for the link. I'll look into it.


----------



## CountChoculaBot

@ SP Wild
   
  You seem to prefer musicality over rigid accuracy for your DACs.  Same as me =]  I'd check out the Valab NOS DAC or the Chameleon NOS DAC, the latter which I prefer tremendously over my DAC19DSP.  I've been told to check out the $900 Havana NOS DAC as well, which is apparently king of the hill for my tastes.


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





countchoculabot said:


> Thanks for the input.  From what I've read the WA6 is a tube amp that leans towards solid state a good bit; would you say the Mini Torii leans towards solid state as the WA6 does to a higher or a lower degree?


 

 The Mini-Torii is more "tubey" sounding than the WA6, I guess, but only in ways I consider to be positive - the mids are lusher on the M-T, but it is not soft at the frequency extremes.


----------



## CountChoculaBot

Quote: 





skylab said:


> the mids are lusher on the M-T


 

 Helloooooo =]
   
  If the V200 I'm receiving soon doesn't satisfy me enough, Mini Torii just became my #1 amp pick.


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





countchoculabot said:


> @ SP Wild
> 
> You seem to prefer musicality over rigid accuracy for your DACs.  Same as me =]  I'd check out the Valab NOS DAC or the Chameleon NOS DAC, the latter which I prefer tremendously over my DAC19DSP.  I've been told to check out the $900 Havana NOS DAC as well, which is apparently king of the hill for my tastes.


 

 I'm not going to use the word "musical" as this denotes a certain coloration.  I think it is the principles of R2R vs Delta Sigma DAC conversion techniques.  What I hear from this 60 buck, Ipod sized DAC sounds far more realistic than the Dacmagic and somewhat more realistic than my Bryston DAC with none of this "artificiality" that is rampant on the Dacmagic and significantly reduced, but very noticeable on the Bryston - which was noticed after I heard the 60 dollar R2R DAC.  To me it is the Dacmagic and Bryston that is "colored".  To avoid derailing this thread, please feel free to discuss this via PM or in the source forum.
   
  At this stage, all I'm going to say is that I am very confused and not sure how to interpret any of this.


----------



## tisb0b

Maybe you should try the MHDT havana which apparently is a very organic sounding DAC. 
  
  Quote: 





sp wild said:


> At this stage, all I'm going to say is that I am very confused and not sure how to interpret any of this.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





countchoculabot said:


> @ SP Wild
> 
> You seem to prefer musicality over rigid accuracy for your DACs.  Same as me =]  I'd check out the Valab NOS DAC or the Chameleon NOS DAC, the latter which I prefer tremendously over my DAC19DSP.  I've been told to check out the $900 Havana NOS DAC as well, which is apparently king of the hill for my tastes.


 

 The MHDT Labs Havana is one sweet DAC.


----------



## arteom

Anyone heard these on an x-can v8 by any chance? I'm considering purchasing a pair of LCD-2's.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

radio_head said:


> [size=medium]
> 
> I'm investing in my first (serious) home rig right now.  I have a macbook pro, and ordered a (highly) discounted PWD.  I'm thinking ZDT as an amp for my LCD-2/HD800. Any better way to spend my money amp-wise?
> ​[/size]







 There might be better ways to spend your money, but i'm very happy with how my ZDT sounds with both of these very different sounding phones.


----------



## gsilver

Has anyone compared the Meier Concerto and the Matrix M-Stage with these phones?
   
  I'm thinking of either keeping the M-Stage at home and buying a portable amp for work (like the Headstage Arrow) and when out and about.
   
  Alternatively, I'd upgrade to the Meier Concerto at home, and take the M-Stage to work. This would leave me without an amp for the IEMs, but they aren't too bad unamped from my ipod. 
   
  The headphones that would be used are either the MDR-SA5000 or HD-650 at work (current home phones; the LCD-2 will replace one of them), and UE Triple-Fi 10vi IEMs. Also, my source, the Sony XA5400ES, and interconnects, $3 RCA cables, should be taken into consideration.
   
   
  If the Concerto isn't likely to be a big step up over the M-Stage, I'm tempted to just get an Arrow. I've read does a decent job with the HD-650, which is more picky than the SA5K.


----------



## milford30

Thank you very much for your (and everyone who gave me advice especially headphoneaddict with the HDP comments and reviews), i just received my HDP in black, it's so small, and sounds really nice with my D2000, can't wait till i get my LCD-2, probably another 2 weeks to a month unfortunately...
  after hearing the HDP i've killed off my thoughts for an amp at the moment....  the bass seems slight less (unless i turn up the volume) but more punchy, i'm not a bass head so that's fine with me, i do think it's getting better with burn in (especially the bass), it seems i'm turning my volume down as burn in progresses for some reason :S
  
  Quote: 





grokit said:


> I would try the HDP alone first, it's amp is pretty good from and what I have read matches up well with the LCD-2.
> 
> 
> Quote:
> ...


----------



## tisb0b

These headphones do not have any burn in, you are just getting more and more accustomed to how they sound.
  
  Quote: 





milford30 said:


> after hearing the HDP i've killed off my thoughts for an amp at the moment....  the bass seems slight less (unless i turn up the volume) but more punchy, i'm not a bass head so that's fine with me, i do think it's getting better with burn in (especially the bass), it seems i'm turning my volume down as burn in progresses for some reason :S


----------



## milford30

i don't have the LCD-2 yet, i've had my D2000 for years, i was talking about the amp
  
  Quote: 





tisb0b said:


> These headphones do not have any burn in, you are just getting more and more accustomed to how they sound.


----------



## tisb0b

My bad ;D
  
  Quote: 





milford30 said:


> i don't have the LCD-2 yet, i've had my D2000 for years, i was talking about the amp


----------



## superjohny

i think it failed to release the full potential of lcd-2.
   
  underpowered indeed. i am going to have a mini meet with some friend soon so hopefully i can compare using other amps.
  Quote: 





arteom said:


> Anyone heard these on an x-can v8 by any chance? I'm considering purchasing a pair of LCD-2's.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





superjohny said:


> i think it failed to release the full potential of lcd-2.
> 
> underpowered indeed. i am going to have a mini meet with some friend soon so hopefully i can compare using other amps.


 

 I thought SPWild had reported on favorable synergy between the two though.


----------



## Currawong

Quote: 





grokit said:


> I thought SPWild had reported on favorable synergy between the two though.


 

 If you look at his list of amps, he has never owned a high-end amp, so it's all relative.  I think my Sparrow works well with the LCD-2s, but I wouldn't recommend it as an ideal pairing.  Does this make sense?


----------



## grokit

Quote:


currawong said:


> If you look at his list of amps, he has never owned a high-end amp, so it's all relative.  I think my Sparrow works well with the LCD-2s, but I wouldn't recommend it as an ideal pairing.  Does this make sense?



   
  It just seemed that the synergy he reported was somewhat better with the x-can than with other amps in his collection, some of which I believe were more expensive. It certainly makes sense that the LCD-2 would pair better with certain amps than with others in any price class, even if they all left something to be desired in an ultimate sense.


----------



## SP Wild

I only ever commented on the XcanV3 and stated specifically that the Lehmann Black Cube Linear ($1500AUS) was a better, more refined amplifier...however the V3 ($600AUS) was a more forward amp which can work well for those that feel the LCD2s have a dip at 2-3khz.  The V8 ($900AUS) I have never heard with LCD2, but should be more refined than the V3...I was merely suggesting in that post to beware of so called "upgrades" which merely are "sidegrades" in tonal balance.
   
  The V3 is better than the Vincent hybrid rebadge ($500US) and the Ming Da tube amp ($400US).
   
  To put things in perspective the Cayin is a $1100AUS-$850US tube amp - this amp in SET triode mode is the favored amp at the moment, even though the transient response falls short of the BCL.  But I do believe the V3 works very well with the LCD2 for a budget amplifier.  In the end of the day, some people won't even reliably DBT the V3 over the BCL.
   
  Also I question the validity of hi-end - when I prefer a 60 dollar dac over a 3000 dollar dac.
   
  But yes, the LCD2 can bring all my headamps to their knees if pushed for SPL.  Only my integrated tube speaker amp can provide the necessary current to the LCD2 for the torture tests.  For classical music especially, there is no escape...the LCD2s need massive current.


----------



## arteom

Thanks superjohny. Might go ahead with the sale of the X-Can, partly because I would like to justify building another amp 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.


----------



## blargman

Sorry if this is a dumb question but which is your "integrated tube speaker amp"?
  Quote: 





sp wild said:


> I only ever commented on the XcanV3 and stated specifically that the Lehmann Black Cube Linear ($1500AUS) was a better, more refined amplifier...however the V3 ($600AUS) was a more forward amp which can work well for those that feel the LCD2s have a dip at 2-3khz.  The V8 ($900AUS) I have never heard with LCD2, but should be more refined than the V3...I was merely suggesting in that post to beware of so called "upgrades" which merely are "sidegrades" in tonal balance.
> 
> The V3 is better than the Vincent hybrid rebadge ($500US) and the Ming Da tube amp ($400US).
> 
> ...


----------



## Solude

Probably been mentioned but I'm finding the B22 a great match for the LCD-2.  Plays to its strengths very well.  Mine is a two channel build, top parts, single case, gain of 5.


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





blargman said:


> Sorry if this is a dumb question but which is your "integrated tube speaker amp"?


 

I'll refer you to an earlier post regarding this matter.  The downside of connecting the LCD2 straight into the speaker taps without a resistor network is that I get issues with the noise floor - not a problem with higher SPLs, but at lower levels - the exposed noise floor intrudes into the sound and the result is lesser refinement at low SPL levels.
   
  * please disregard most of the shenanigans I wrote about the HD800s - I actually like the HD800s a lot now.


----------



## Currawong

Quote: 





sp wild said:


> Also I question the validity of hi-end - when I prefer a 60 dollar dac over a 3000 dollar dac.


 

 Some people like their music with heavy distortion.  See if you can't find the graphs for the Valab NOS DAC which someone posted, showing the grossly distorted output it gives.  People who have spent a good amount of time don't have questions about its validity, unless they don't like too much clarity, or have bought over-priced and under-performing gear. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Back on topic, I'm going to see if I can't again borrow a Luxman P-1 and give it a go with the LCD-2s. I am hoping for similar results to what I get with the Stacker II.


----------



## Equus

Quote: 





currawong said:


> Back on topic, I'm going to see if I can't again borrow a Luxman P-1 and give it a go with the LCD-2s. I am hoping for similar results to what I get with the Stacker II.


 

 I'll be interested to hear what you think of the Luxman, if you can get a hold of a loaner.  Seamaster brought one to the last meet, and I thought it was really harsh with the LCD-2.  The treble was so hot on one of the songs I use to test that it was almost painful.  I think that was off his Meridian.  We hooked that player up to the red Stacker of doom at the Portland meet, to much better results.  Still, real small sample size, so I'm curious if you hear differently.


----------



## sachu

^^ ooh i like that..red stacker of doom..doom to all other amps. The Red baron does sound quite different from the Agent orange. Red Baron has toshiba 2232/968s output devices (i think it is either MJE253/243 or BD140/139 on curra's), BJT front end on the buffer section (as opposed to JFET on the agent orange), ampohm Poly in oil interstage caps v/s the Vitamin Qs in Agent Orange. One other thing which is huge is that your stacker Ethan has that beautiful sounding PEC carbon potentiometer, albeit scratchy (we will be replacing it with a TKD this weekend, don't you worry 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ) while curra's has a plain alpha or phillips potentiometer.
   
  I prefer the Red baron sound by a fair margin over the Agent orange.


----------



## Equus

LOL...yeah...I was partial to red stacker of doom...or red death.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Hope the TKD potentiometer doesn't negatively affect the sound too much from the carbon pot.
   
  But yeah...I remember how positively Seamaster thought of the Stacker down in Portland.  I'm still hoping that someone shows with a Leben to this weekend's meet, so we can compare that in an LCD-2 rig.


----------



## wower

Quote: 





sp wild said:


> For classical music especially, there is no escape...the LCD2s need massive current.


 

  
  That's exact what I'm finding. For trip-hop and reggae the LCD2 really lock onto the percussion in a very satisfying way. With rock, bass is subterranean and high-end freq on commercial recordings is mellow and listenable. However, with classical, large scale pieces loose a bit of their naturalness and fluidity on large dynamic swings seen in many symphonies, and with small scale, string quartets and under etc., there is a lack of attack on instruments (but texture and tone is very good). I think this is due to my amp simply being out classed by the LCD2. I'm at a bit of a lose because I'm going back and listening to a whole bunch of rock and electronica I haven't listened to in a while, but I really missed all my classical which just sounds veiled these days. There is no perfect headphone.


----------



## TigzStudio

What are the sonic differences between the red and the orange?  Can you describe them a bit?
   
  1,000th post woot 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  
  Quote: 





sachu said:


> ^^ ooh i like that..red stacker of doom..doom to all other amps. The Red baron does sound quite different from the Agent orange. Red Baron has toshiba 2232/968s output devices (i think it is either MJE253/243 or BD140/139 on curra's), BJT front end on the buffer section (as opposed to JFET on the agent orange), ampohm Poly in oil interstage caps v/s the Vitamin Qs in Agent Orange. One other thing which is huge is that your stacker Ethan has that beautiful sounding PEC carbon potentiometer, albeit scratchy (we will be replacing it with a TKD this weekend, don't you worry
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## sachu

Moar neutral, further extension/slam on the low end and moar detailed with slightly better imaging..


----------



## Currawong

That sounds good. Agent Orange has a bit of a lack of kick in the deep bass with the LCD-2s. Other than that it is an incredibly enjoyable amp.


----------



## K3cT

When are you going to get a Beta22 once and for all, Currawong?


----------



## Currawong

I have this crazy idea about building a Dynamite, but I it's probably overkill, even for me.


----------



## Nebby

You can never have enough overkill in the audio world


----------



## K3cT

That is even more true when you are a DIY-er!


----------



## Duckman

Todd says my Volcano should arrive in a day or two. Will report in with some impressions soonish.


----------



## Equus

Quote: 





duckman said:


> Todd says my Volcano should arrive in a day or two. Will report in with some impressions soonish.


 


  Cool.  Looking forward to it.  I only heard it briefly with what we've been told was a faulty tube, so the more impressions the better.  Even with the faulty tube, there were some parts of the sound signature that I liked.


----------



## Col12

Hi Guys, long time lurker here,
   
  I got my LCD2 the other day. Wanted to just to ask if anyone might know and be able to give me some advice. I want to use the phone with some speaker power amps. I have some lowish powered tube power amps of about 20-30 WPC and from what I gather these should be OK driving the LCD2 straight without any resistors (as long as the noise levels are OK), but I'd also like to try the phone with some much bigger solid state power amps, - one of them is 140WPC and the other 250WPC, both rated into 8 ohms. I guess that for sure its too risky driving the LCD2 directly from these with so much power available on tap? If thats the case I need to build some resistor networks and was wondering if anyone knows a good resistor network scheme to use as I know little about it (but can solder), - if it best to use 1, 2 or 3 resistors per channel? and any ideas resistors values if possible?]
   
  I will no doubt buy a very good headphone amp at some point soon for these, but with having many speaker power amps around I'd like to give some of them a try if possible.

 If anyone could help me it with some advice if you have any ideas it would be really appreciated.
  Cheers,
 Colin


----------



## Solude

Speaker amps don't put out that much more voltage than headphone amps, just a ton more current capability.  140W into 8Ohm is 17.5W into 64Ohm.  More than the LCD-2 can take but then lots of speaker amps can go to 1kW and the speakers don't so...  The other side is, you're likely listening under 1mW average so, whats the point


----------



## Col12

Thanks for that. Yeah the problem is I don't have a suitable headphone amp right now and the headphone outs on my integrated amps and my AV receiver don't cut it with the LCD2, - the sound is a bit weak.  I wanted to use something with a bit more grunt, - obviously a 140watt amp is overkill, but like I say I was wondering what the best sort of resistor config for Orthos with a speaker amp are so I could use one of the higher powered amps.
  Cheers again,
  Colin


----------



## Duckman

All the premierships a cake walk!


----------



## dBel84

Quote: 





col12 said:


> ........ I don't have a suitable headphone amp right now and the headphone outs on my integrated amps and my AV receiver don't cut it with the LCD2, - the sound is a bit weak.  I wanted to use something with a bit more grunt, - obviously a 140watt amp is overkill, but like I say I was wondering what the best sort of resistor config for Orthos with a speaker amp are so I could use one of the higher powered amps.
> Cheers again,
> Colin


 

 I would venture to say that you don't need a headphone amp at all. The only hitch is the cable termination. If you are going to use these headphones only at home with your power amps, I would cut the 1/4" plug off and reterminate with bananas or just bare wires into the speaker terminal plugs of the amp. I would not bother with a resistor network but be aware of the volume control level. If you really want to keep the 1/4" plug, make sure your amps are not running differential outputs and that they will tolerate a ground short on the negative output signal. - ie many mid to high end transistor amps and all transformer coupled tube amps *will not*. Rod Elliot has a decent outline for an adaptor or you could pick up a commercial adaptor such as the miniwatt. There are other transformer coupled adaptors out there but I am drawing a blank at the moment. If you view orthos as ear speakers and treat them like an efficient near field , you can't go wrong. enjoy ..dB
   
   
   
   
   
  on another topic - I just stumbled on this thread and see a few misrepresentations of stacker info, no biggie as they are one off's but if it really matters to the owners I can set the record straight.


----------



## Solude

Didn't ASL used to make an speaker to headphone transformer?
   
  http://www.divertech.com/asluhcsignature.html


----------



## grokit

Wouldn't it make sense to get the headphone cable in a balanced termination, then get 1/4", 1/8", and speaker terminal adapters as needed?


----------



## SP Wild

I'm worried that these resistor networks will raise the output impedance to about 120 ohms - any clarification on this matter?


----------



## Col12

Many thanks for the info, - that's very helpful, - especially the warning about the ground short on the negative output signal, - I nearly tried that with one of my transformer coupled tube amps today (an Art Audio Quintet). What I'll do is make up a new headphone cable from some starquad cable and some Neutrik Ream mini XLRs omitting the 1/4 inch plug at the other end and use 4 banana plugs instead. I guess I'd better use Canare 4S6 speaker cable as per the stock cable as I guess that's less likely to short than a thinner microphone starquad cable. If I make up a cable like this, - should I not connect the starquad cable shield to anything?

 I've actually been using some of my speaker amps with some 300 ohm Sennhsier dynamic headphones for a couple of years without problems, -  using resistor of course, but I use two different configs. One of my adapter leads is consists of 330 ohm resistor in series on the +ve outputs only going to a 1/4 inch headphone socket. This config (though less power is getting through because of the resistor) is I guess the same situation as the having no resistor there and its bad news if I am using a speaker amp that does not tolerate a ground short on the negative output signal. I have 5 speaker amps right now, - I have used this series resistor config with several of them. I don't know for sure which ones might be able to tolerate the short and which ones do not! Is there a way at all to test out safely whether an amp can tolerate a short on the -ve terminals so you would know for sure?

 For the tube speaker amps I have a different resistor network consisting of a 22 ohm resistor over the + - speaker terminals of each channel then a 330 ohm resistor on the +ve signal going to the 300 ohm Sennehsier headphones. Sorry if this is a stupid question but in that config with the initial extra resistor across the speaker terminals as well, is it OK to plug to the headphone jack with the ground short situation if you are also using an amp that does not tolerate the ground short (which my transformer coupled valve amps obviously do not)

 So you reckon as long as I am careful the volume does not go too high, I'll be able to use a 250Watt (in 8 ohms) speaker power amp into the LCD2s without resistors if I make up a new cable?! Guess I will try it, - the power amp in question is a NAD 208 THX. The other powerful power amp I have is a Quad 606 MK2, but that has higher gain than the NAD (the Quad is 34 dB gain/0.5 v from a preamp to reach full output level) so although it has less power than the NAD (140 watts into 8 ohms vs 250 watts ) I think it will be safer using the NAD as its gain is less, - I think its about 1.6V for full output. The NAD also has a short protection circuit and relay delay when switched on, -  which the Quad doesn't have.  
 I guess driving the LCD2 without resistors from a SS speaker amp will make use of the very low output impedance the speaker amp has and hence you will get high damping factor, which is compromised when you use resistors.
 One issue could be noise or hiss, - I will see how it is, - if its a issue I might have to use resistors to attenuate the noise anyway.  

 I have some friends with some decent headphone amps, - I will borrow to compare to this config and see how much difference there is. I guess a dedicated headphone amp can run in class A whereas these speaker amps do not, so there might be some advantage to be had there, but if I can get away without buying a headphone amp it would be very useful.

 Another issue I was having with contemplating using a dedicated headphone amp is because I use a preamp (have 4 different ones) I had been looking for a headphone amp that has special inputs to directly access its output stage and bypass its input stage and volume control (effecitvely using it as a headphone "power amp". But I could not find any headphone amps with inputs like this. If anyone knows of any headphone amps that have these sort of inputs I'd still be very interested to know!

 So anyway, many thanks for you help, - I'll buy the stuff required and make another headphone lead for my LCD2 going to 4 banana plugs to try this out, and hope the noise levels will be OK.
   
  All the best,
  Colin
  Quote: 





dbel84 said:


> I would venture to say that you don't need a headphone amp at all. The only hitch is the cable termination. If you are going to use these headphones only at home with your power amps, I would cut the 1/4" plug off and reterminate with bananas or just bare wires into the speaker terminal plugs of the amp. I would not bother with a resistor network but be aware of the volume control level. If you really want to keep the 1/4" plug, make sure your amps are not running differential outputs and that they will tolerate a ground short on the negative output signal. - ie many mid to high end transistor amps and all transformer coupled tube amps *will not*. Rod Elliot has a decent outline for an adaptor or you could pick up a commercial adaptor such as the miniwatt. There are other transformer coupled adaptors out there but I am drawing a blank at the moment. If you view orthos as ear speakers and treat them like an efficient near field , you can't go wrong. enjoy ..dB
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Col12

Cool thats interesting. I guess if I was using a dynamic phone that would be a solution, but it seems that with an Ortho its OK to use directly from a speaker amp as long as the connections at the amp end are OK.
  
  Quote: 





solude said:


> Didn't ASL used to make an speaker to headphone transformer?
> 
> http://www.divertech.com/asluhcsignature.html


----------



## Col12

Thanks for that, - do you mean wire up the a headphone cable so its balanced at the mini XLR ends at the LCD2 inputs? Am a bit lost here to tell the truth! Can you elaborate?!
  
  Quote: 





grokit said:


> Wouldn't it make sense to get the headphone cable in a balanced termination, then get 1/4", 1/8", and speaker terminal adapters as needed?


----------



## grokit

I just meant so you for sure have four discrete wires to make whatever adapters you need from them. If you have a balanced termination (at the  power end), that would be the case.


----------



## Col12

I had thought about that too, - if you follow the Elliot adapter schematic for example the output impedance will be about 120 ohms and that obviously not so desirable for the LCD2 with its 50 ohms internal impedance.  Which is why its better to run from the speaker amp with no resistors I guess as the output impedance will be very low, - I read that most Solid state speaker amps have a output impedance between 0.05 to 0.5 ohms.
 So this is better or I guess to build a resistor network that will give a much lower output impedance than 120 ohms.
  Quote: 





sp wild said:


> I'm worried that these resistor networks will raise the output impedance to about 120 ohms - any clarification on this matter?


----------



## Col12

Cool thanks for the clarification, - so that's just as dbel84 is saying I should do,- cut off the 1/4" headphone jack and use the 4 bare wire on the stock cable or make up another cable like that.
  Quote: 





grokit said:


> I just meant so you for sure have four discrete wires to make whatever adapters you need from them. If you have a balanced termination (at the  power end), that would be the case.


----------



## grokit

What I meant is cut off the 1/4" jack, and attach a male 4-pin xlr connector in its place. Then take female 4-pin XLR connectors and make adapters to whatever you want.


----------



## Col12

Sorry I misunderstood, - thanks for the explanation, - NOW understood, - that avoids the negative ground short issue. I will make an cable like this and experiment with adapters using resistor network and the one with resistor. But I guess if I find is the noise levels are OK and the SQ is good the best option is to eliminate these extra connections and wire the headphone directly to the speaker terminals, making sure I am careful with the volume control of course!
  
  Quote: 





grokit said:


> What I meant is cut off the 1/4" jack, and attach a male 4-pin xlr connector in its place. Then take female 4-pin XLR connectors and make adapters to whatever you want.


----------



## grokit

Yeah keep the volume down for sure. I am only planning on using orthodynamic/k1000 types of headphones, not dynamic. YMMV and I am NOT an engineer!


----------



## Col12

Cool Thanks for that. yes I had a K1000 before, - that's a bit different, - a speaker is needed to get enough volume and drive, - virtually all headphone amps are no good for it. And its much lower sensitivity (around 74 dB compared to 91dB for the LCD2) which usefully means the noise levels of the power amp are usually never an issue with the K1000. Personally I did not like the sound or fit of it so I sold it on but I know many people love it. Orthos are much more up my street.
  Quote: 





grokit said:


> Yeah keep the volume down for sure. I am only planning on using orthodynamic/k1000 types of headphones, not dynamic. YMMV and I am NOT an engineer!


----------



## vilasn

Hey TigzStudio,
   
  Which is your pick between A-GD Roc and v181.
   
  Thanks.


----------



## TigzStudio

Both are excellent in their own right, but I chose the v181.  My goal for my system was neutrality, which in my definition of the term.... for well recorded music should give you superb true to life musicality.  I feel my setup does this.  I truly believe that any headphone I test in my system shows you exactly their character and how they portray the music to you.  
  
  Quote: 





vilasn said:


> Hey TigzStudio,
> 
> Which is your pick between A-GD Roc and v181.
> 
> Thanks.


----------



## vilasn

Has anybody tried these with A-GD ROC-SA?
   
  Thanks.


----------



## Santamaria

I received my LCD-2 a few days ago and I am quite happy with them. In the past years I have gone through HD650, GS1000, W5000 y HD800  in what now seems to my a expensive and sad trip. LCD-2 is not just better that others cans I have tried, for me is a new experience of musical richness and smoothness. It is worth to look for a perfecc amp for this gem.  I have tried 3 amp and will comment briefly my impressions on them. My source is Marantz 7s1
   
     - Manley neo-classic 300 B (with WE, RCA y Mullard)): this amp can be heaven for some people and hell for others, for me it has been both things. It has the caracterisctic sound of 300B tubes: the high frecuencies are very limited, the bass is deep but not contolled, and there is always a certain degree  of distortion in all frecuencies. The soundstage is so big that you may have the impression that the cans are tranparents, the voices and instruments are so full that you can touch them, and there is a perfect smoothnes in the sound. With the LCD-2  the defects of the manley are less prominents than with others cans and the sound is really good, smooth, full and rich. It can give a credible image of a large orchestra with full body instruments. But there is always the hell of the limitations.
   
      - Earmax silver (with Valvo): the lcd-2 with this amp have a very balanced sound. For me the soundstage and the body of instruments are good and there is a very good proportion in the presentation. In the negative side I find some degree of dryness that become apparent in long listening sessions, and a lack of clarity with orchestal works. Perhaps this problems can be solve with tube rolling, but NOS 6922 are muddy waters. Any suggestions will be welcome. I have the impression that an amp around the 6922 o similar can bring out the full potential of lcd-2.
   
      - Phonitor: I like this amp with hd650 and a little less with HD800. With LCD-2 the sound is very clear and sweet but thin. With a large orchestra you can distinguish most intruments but they seem to be very small like a little toy
   
  The lcd-2 will sound excellent with most amp, but they have an enormous potential that will be bring out only from few amp. Some people have commented  good results with violectric v200 and perhaps someone have compared it with the phonitor and may give some advice . Another possibility for my may tube rolling with the earmax and I look forward to any suggestion.


----------



## oqvist

You want to spoil them don´t you 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





... The Auditor is more neutral then the V200. Hard to give some advice. Some like the colouration on the V200 but I found it distracting. I am not allergic to colouration as long as it doesn´t distract but the V200 did for me on both the ED 8 and LCD-2.


----------



## vilasn

Quote: 





oqvist said:


> You want to spoil them don´t you
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Is GoldPoint still your favorite choice?
   
  Thanks.


----------



## oqvist

Quote: 





vilasn said:


> Is GoldPoint still your favorite choice?
> 
> Thanks.


 


 It certainly get more playtime over the Head One.


----------



## Currawong

There are some factory refurb Luxman SQ-N100s up for MUCH cheaper than retail, so I'm going to spring on one soon I reckon, if I can get enough stuff sold in the mean time.


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





currawong said:


> There are some factory refurb Luxman SQ-N100s up for MUCH cheaper than retail, so I'm going to spring on one soon I reckon, if I can get enough stuff sold in the mean time.


 


  What is that the tube or SS amp not familiar and the price of the amp would be good for members to know and where it is available. Thanks


----------



## Currawong

EL-34-based tube amp.  Part of their "Neo Classic" series.
   
  http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/luxman3/100.html
   
  I saw them in the stores for ages, but never thought about them. The matching CD player sounds rather crap IMO, but there's a good possibility that they will be a good match with headphones.


----------



## TheWuss

gorgeous amp.
  here's hoping she sounds as good as she looks.


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





currawong said:


> EL-34-based tube amp.  Part of their "Neo Classic" series.
> 
> http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/luxman3/100.html
> 
> I saw them in the stores for ages, but never thought about them. The matching CD player sounds rather crap IMO, but there's a good possibility that they will be a good match with headphones.


 

 you still didnt say where the refubished are and the price for them


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





sp wild said:


> I'm worried that these resistor networks will raise the output impedance to about 120 ohms - any clarification on this matter?


 

 A properly designed resistor network will maintain a nominal 6-10 ohm load to the amplifier.


----------



## Currawong

I went into Best Denki today and made the salesman pull an Esoteric SA-50 out of the rack and connect it directly to the Luxman SQ-N100 so I have a proper listen without miles of switch-boxes and wiring in between. What didn't help is that the hi-fi section is in the middle of a noisy store where they deliberately leave many rigs playing music.  The salesman I had talked to the other day said that the refurbished units from Luxman would be about 130k yen (US$1600 or so).  I've seen second-hand P-1u's go cheaper, but not by much. It took me some convincing of the guy that really, no, I didn't want to go to the headphone section but I had been recommended this particular amp for them.  He was surprised to find I'd bought a pair of planar headphones with me for listening to the amp.
   
  Anyway, the sound.  Very musical, punchy amp that doesn't seem to lack power.  The treble is rather soft and the headstage is rather narrow (granted, my rig is balanced and has a very wide headstage and soundstage) and I'm not sure I liked the presentation so much with the volume turned up.  It's probably a bit soft overall for the LCD-2s, even when I sinned and turned up the treble on the amp (which is at 3k+ and very suitable for compensating them). I was not listening to whole songs, as I've heard my collection a zillion times before and I know what I'm hearing pretty quickly.  However, Norah Jones with the Peter Malick Group, which is a quite forward and aggressive song in itself I had to listen one song in its entirety as it was magical.  This is very much a rig for Diana Krall lovers and the like.  The Luxman though is probably better suited to brighter headphones, but if you like your music delivered in a deliciously syrupy manner, it's great.
   
  Overall though, I'm not sure I liked it enough to buy one, especially since I have the Stacker here, even though it needs to be fixed.  If I go ahead with a near-field rig I will consider it though.


----------



## wower

^^^
   
  That's not good news. The P1u was on my radar if I ever needed an amp that would have to do for multiple headphone including the LCD2. Maybe the "syrupy" moniker needs to be elaborated on? That's the one thing I find lacking on the LCD2: the treble. Even though it's only subtly lacking, there are numerous ways to describe it: recessed highs? A lack of air up top? Maybe the headphone is being honest and it's revealing the flaws in the rest of my system? I was hoping the P1u was punchy and driven, sharp and dynamic, as it's one of those products that is very hard to audition depending where one is in the world.  Always enjoy your write ups tho Curra. It's appreciated.


----------



## Solude

SQ-N100 not P1u.


----------



## Frank I

I have been listening since friday to the PS Audio GCHA and I can say so  far this amp is impressing me with the LCD2 as the sound stage has opened up considerably from the tube Decware.It is transparent had very good bass and just the right amount of detail and is organic in presentation. It is still burning in and is showing signs of what a good SS amp has refinement, detail and most important to me is the musicality. It also may be the last amp the PS audio does for the headphone market and I am keeping this one.


----------



## wower

That's a relief. Reread the exact post: still not entirely clear but since I'm rooting for the p1u I'll take it as good news.


----------



## Currawong

Sorry, I just realised I didn't actually write that it was the SQ-N100 I was trying, not the P-1u in my post.


----------



## Equus

Honestly, I wouldn't go with a P1u with the LCD-2.  From the little time I spent with it at a meet (so not ideal conditions) with the T1 and LCD-2, the treble is pretty bright and harsh.  Very detailed, however, so it will depend on your music preferences and the rest of your setup.  The caveat to all this is that I also personally find the HD800 harsh and don't have a major gripe with the "recessed treble" on the LCD-2 when I had my Stacker, so YMMV.


----------



## wower

Yeah, I want a bit more detail and brightness for my orchestral records so the P1U might be the way to go if it's power requirements are up to par. I agree tho the tilted highs don't really bother me all that much. Pop/Rock/Reggae are all much more bearable on the LCD2. And the way the phones lock into the groove is great. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I've been listening to Plants and Animals last two disks; just great! But the LCD2, like my AD2000s before, just do not offer the sense of realistic scale of a large orchestra and cellos are just not sounding as textured - or maybe they are excellently textured but just not as much bite as my AD2000s. There is no such thing as a perfect phone! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  The deccaware amp is so intriguing but it's a lot to spend for a single phone amp. I've come te believe that amps/cable/sources etc, can only slightly affect the sound sig of a phone. So if you aren't enjoying the sound sig, it's not going to be radically fixed by changing the amp. Better to try another phone. ASR has some interesting comments on this that swayed me to his point of view.


----------



## TigzStudio

Quote: 





equus said:


> ....on the LCD-2 when I had my Stacker, so YMMV.


 


  Your stacker is gone?!?!


----------



## vcoheda

the BA is absolutely brilliant with the LCD2, although i understand that this amp will be outside of most budgets.


----------



## stef50millbay

Does anyone know the current waiting time for the LCD2?I have been waiting since the 15 of september..When it comes I will tell how it sounds with the concerto and matrix m stage..I also brought the miniwatt speaker tap just in case and it works great on an old phono stage amp..I listen at one half of one digit out of ten,with my K701and its clean and quite power..If you have LCD2 amp doubts,its the way to go for insurance .Also was wondering where is a good place to buy tubes for mini tori, as I am just starting out..Thanks for any help.


----------



## Equus

Quote: 





tigzstudio said:


> Your stacker is gone?!?!


 

 It's on extended loan back to sachu.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  When he was up here for the Seattle meet, we swapped out the pot, but there was still hiss coming through the right channel.  We figured it would be a good time to get some reworking and rewiring done and see if the hiss could be attenuated.  So far I think the feet have been switched out, some of the wiring redone, and he was planning on seeing if adding some shielded cable to the input stage and trying to isolate the power supply would help at all.  So far it sounds like there's still some hiss on the right channel.  Maybe if he can get in touch with dbel he'll have some advice.
   
  So long story only slightly longer, I _temporarily_ don't have my Stacker.  I'm going through withdrawals now tho...I have the ALO cable but am driving the LCD-2 off a D10.

  
  Quote: 





vcoheda said:


> the BA is absolutely brilliant with the LCD2, although i understand that this amp will be outside of most budgets.


 

 Got a chance to listen to my LCD-2's with Kingstyles' BA.  It was pretty nice.  Not quite as organic as the Stacker rig, but very clean and precise.  Very nice imaging.


----------



## Nebby

Quote: 





stef50millbay said:


> Does anyone know the current waiting time for the LCD2?I have been waiting since the 15 of september..When it comes I will tell how it sounds with the concerto and matrix m stage..I also brought the miniwatt speaker tap just in case and it works great on an old phono stage amp..I listen at one half of one digit out of ten,with my K701and its clean and quite power..If you have LCD2 amp doubts,its the way to go for insurance .Also was wondering where is a good place to buy tubes for mini tori, as I am just starting out..Thanks for any help.


 


  I submitted my email on August 16th and got my payment request on October 7th, package that I received today lists a ship date of Oct 11th.


----------



## Solude

Down to two months nice


----------



## vilasn

Hi,
   
  How would you compare your M-Stage with PS-GCHA using LCD-2.
   
  Thanks.
  
  Quote: 





frank i said:


> I have been listening since friday to the PS Audio GCHA and I can say so  far this amp is impressing me with the LCD2 as the sound stage has opened up considerably from the tube Decware.It is transparent had very good bass and just the right amount of detail and is organic in presentation. It is still burning in and is showing signs of what a good SS amp has refinement, detail and most important to me is the musicality. It also may be the last amp the PS audio does for the headphone market and I am keeping this one.


----------



## Frank I

I liked the sound stage and refined approach of the PS Audio amp with the LCD2 in the end I still much preferred my CSP-2. Matrix had more bass slam and less sound stagwe also was more forward with vocals but still for the money the Matrix is still top of the roost for best value. I like Matrix better than Asgard. GLite and almost as much as the S Audio. Cant miss either way if you like SS amps. I prefer tube amps overall for the musicality.


----------



## sachu

Quote: 





equus said:


> It's on extended loan back to sachu.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  Well Ethan,
   
  Got the hiss out...it didn't bother me when i had the stacker as i used to use the inefficient wharfie isodynamics and was only apparent with the TPs. 
   
  However, putting in a ground loop breaker, new rubber feet, grounding the front panel helped in alleviating the problem for the most part. However, the hiss persisted on the right channel and it just got too weird for me to figure out why it was acting that way. I rechecked everything and saw that I had not grounded the base plate. I was so sure i had done this eons ago. Grounding that immediately got rid of nearly all the hiss on the right channel.  
   
  Say what you want, even after listening to the Balancing act, which in its own right is an exceptional amplifier, very clean sounding, but just doesn't hold a candle to the stacker in terms of pure aural pleasure. And now with the input wiring re-done with the TKD pot and ALO UPOCC solid core hook up cable, its at a level that only the Liquid Fire seems to exceed. This is a gem of an amp and a rarity among these parts with less than a dozen of them being built. I'd do away with all amps and just be happy with this or the Liquid Fire. 
   
  I know the repairs/maintenance on the amp is done now, but I am sure you wouldn't mind if I hang on to it for a few more days buddy. Looking at this beautiful sounding red machine on my desk again literally brought tears to my eyes. Thanks for being patient with me dude and for giving me the opportunity to listen to her sing again.
   
  The LCD-2 and the Stacker 2 ( mainly speaking about the Red Baron) is to me (and i know to a few others as well), *reference..*


----------



## sachu

And Ken from ALO Audio wanted to listen to the amp after the maintenance and re-wiring. Am sure you'd be cool with that if it means hanging on to it for a few more days. Ken graciously donated the hook up wire that's in the amp now as he too loves this amp.


----------



## tisb0b

Have you had the opportunity to listen to the LCD-2's on the concerto?
  
  Quote: 





sachu said:


> And Ken from ALO Audio wanted to listen to the amp after the maintenance and re-wiring. Am sure you'd be cool with that if it means hanging on to it for a few more days. Ken graciously donated the hook up wire that's in the amp now as he too loves this amp.


----------



## K3cT

I've heard the Concerto and frankly I'm not even sure if it's better than the M-Stage...


----------



## gsilver

Really?
   
  I'm upgrading from the M-Stage to the Concerto soon, and while I've never been disappointed by the M-Stage's performance (except with the HD650, but it might just be their sound signature), I'm hoping that the Concerto is a better unit.
   
  Still, many of the recordings that I listen to really need crossfeed, which the M-Stage doesn't do. The hard-panning on early stereo recordings can be a bit difficult to listen to on headphones without it.


----------



## sachu

Quote: 





tisb0b said:


> Have you had the opportunity to listen to the LCD-2's on the concerto?


 
  Don't think  have heard that amp..but don't really plan to. I've listened to too many high end amps with the LCD-2 (EHHA, B22, Balancing Act, WA6SE, WA22, etc)  and always come back to the Stacker 2 and now recently the Liquid Fire and Liquid Gold.  The Liquid Gold isn't up to the level of the Liquid Fire (or the stacker 2 in pure musicality) to be honest, but quite better sounding to me than any other SS amp I have tried with orthos.


----------



## Equus

Awesome man.  Glad that got fixed!  Peace of mind for me, and I'm sure for you as well!  As far as hanging on to it a few more days, given the reworking you did on it and Ken donating wire, I would be a selfish such-and-such if I said "send it now!"  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  Just let me know the timing and send tracking info so I can arrange to be at home to receive it.  Hate to envision it sitting out in front of my door all day.  Let me know what Ken has to say too, that will be interesting to hear. 
  
  Quote: 





sachu said:


> Well Ethan,
> 
> Got the hiss out...it didn't bother me when i had the stacker as i used to use the inefficient wharfie isodynamics and was only apparent with the TPs.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Quote: 





			
				sachu said:
			
		

> And Ken from ALO Audio wanted to listen to the amp after the maintenance and re-wiring. Am sure you'd be cool with that if it means hanging on to it for a few more days. Ken graciously donated the hook up wire that's in the amp now as he too loves this amp.


----------



## tisb0b

Might be something for me to look at in the near/far future
  
  Quote: 





sachu said:


> Don't think  have heard that amp..but don't really plan to. I've listened to too many high end amps with the LCD-2 (EHHA, B22, Balancing Act, WA6SE, WA22, etc)  and always come back to the Stacker 2 and now recently the Liquid Fire and Liquid Gold.  The Liquid Gold isn't up to the level of the Liquid Fire (or the stacker 2 in pure musicality) to be honest, but quite better sounding to me than any other SS amp I have tried with orthos.


----------



## vilasn

Hey Sachu,
   
  Are Liquid Fire or Gold amps available commercially, or they are DIY?
   
  Thanks.
  
  Quote: 





sachu said:


> Don't think  have heard that amp..but don't really plan to. I've listened to too many high end amps with the LCD-2 (EHHA, B22, Balancing Act, WA6SE, WA22, etc)  and always come back to the Stacker 2 and now recently the Liquid Fire and Liquid Gold.  The Liquid Gold isn't up to the level of the Liquid Fire (or the stacker 2 in pure musicality) to be honest, but quite better sounding to me than any other SS amp I have tried with orthos.


----------



## sachu

They are going to be commercial only amps. Alex Cavalli is working on rolling them out soon. Liquid Fire is going to come out first followed by the Liquid Gold.
   
  edit: switching the 12SN7GT tall bottles to some NOS 5814A Phillips ECG that I got from dBel84 made any kind of hiss go away completely from the stacker 2. Damn happy


----------



## Equus

Too bad the Liquid Fire prototype wasn't available for the Seattle meet.  Would have loved to have spent more time with it, though I think I would have had to compete with a bunch of folks for that time.
   
  The Stacker lives!  Long live the Stacker!  Next we can see if the shielded cables make any difference and the Stacker will be ready for duty!


----------



## sachu

naa.. i think i won't do the shielded cables. Its good as it stands now. Grooving to some "4 on the floor" house tunes...with the LCD-2 its like a private club experience in your head.


----------



## kwkarth

Has anyone else tried the MiniWatt amp with the LCD-2s lately?  I continue to be impressed with this amp and I'm curious if anyone else shares the experience..


----------



## sachu

its an okay amp. No where near as refined as the ones am used to but it does deliver the power.


----------



## K3cT

Quote: 





gsilver said:


> Really?
> 
> I'm upgrading from the M-Stage to the Concerto soon, and while I've never been disappointed by the M-Stage's performance (except with the HD650, but it might just be their sound signature), I'm hoping that the Concerto is a better unit.
> 
> Still, many of the recordings that I listen to really need crossfeed, which the M-Stage doesn't do. The hard-panning on early stereo recordings can be a bit difficult to listen to on headphones without it.


 
   
  Yes. I had the opportunity to compare it again in a small meet against the WA6 w/ PDPS + Sophia Princess and Gilmore Lite. I thought that the Gilmore Lite is the cleanest and most neutral sounding amongst the pack, the Concerto is surprisingly rougher in the upper mid area and a bit thin sounding actually while being more detailed compared to the Gilmore, while the WA6 is obviously the best unit overall with the most power output and most "pleasant" sound.
   
  Putting it in the context, I thought that the M-Stage does well in representing a pleasant sound while maintaining good dynamics. Power-wise, which might be important in driving the LCD-2, the M-Stage obviously has an edge compared to the Concerto.


----------



## Frank I

If you want SS amps the new Audio GD coming out next week puts out 6W. The PS Audio did very well as does my Decware CSP-2


----------



## kwkarth

Quote from Sachu: 





> its an okay amp. No where near as refined as the ones am used to but it does deliver the power.


 
   
  How do you define "refined?"


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





k3ct said:


> Yes. I had the opportunity to compare it again in a small meet against the WA6 w/ PDPS + Sophia Princess and Gilmore Lite. I thought that the Gilmore Lite is the cleanest and most neutral sounding amongst the pack, the Concerto is surprisingly rougher in the upper mid area and a bit thin sounding actually while being more detailed compared to the Gilmore, while the WA6 is obviously the best unit overall with the most power output and most "pleasant" sound.
> 
> Putting it in the context, I thought that the M-Stage does well in representing a pleasant sound while maintaining good dynamics. Power-wise, which might be important in driving the LCD-2, the M-Stage obviously has an edge compared to the Concerto.


 

 Are we sure we're talking about the same amps? I borrowed a buddy's GLite for a weekend and did about 2 days worth of A-Bing and every time the Concerto came out on top; not by much, but enough to notice. The GLite is a phenomenal amp...no doubt and too bad it's out of production (get them while you can on the F/S forum) because at the sub $400 price range they are excellent. They are even better with the DPS from what I'm told. The Concerto costs more than $700 so GLite did a great job holding it's own.
   
  But the bass on the Concerto (with both my T1s and HD800s) was more impactful than the GLite. As well, the treble on the HD800s was too "spikey" with the GLite on certain recordings. It was better controlled with the Concerto. Not spikey and certainly not rolled off...just neutral.
   
  But in the end with both T1 and HD800, I just keep coming back to my MAD Ear+HD tube amp. I do love the Concerto though with my D7000s and LCD-2s.
   
  Listening to "River of Dreams" by Billy Joel showed how the bass was slightly deeper and more impactful


----------



## vilasn

Hey,
   
  Are you talking about C-2 SA from A-GD?
   
  Thanks.
  
  Quote: 





frank i said:


> If you want SS amps the new Audio GD coming out next week puts out 6W. The PS Audio did very well as does my Decware CSP-2


----------



## K3cT

Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> Are we sure we're talking about the same amps? I borrowed a buddy's GLite for a weekend and did about 2 days worth of A-Bing and every time the Concerto came out on top; not by much, but enough to notice. The GLite is a phenomenal amp...no doubt and too bad it's out of production (get them while you can on the F/S forum) because at the sub $400 price range they are excellent. They are even better with the DPS from what I'm told. The Concerto costs more than $700 so GLite did a great job holding it's own.
> 
> But the bass on the Concerto (with both my T1s and HD800s) was more impactful than the GLite. As well, the treble on the HD800s was too "spikey" with the GLite on certain recordings. It was better controlled with the Concerto. Not spikey and certainly not rolled off...just neutral.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Well, well our opinions tend to clash often no MH? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  If you notice, I didn't touch upon the bass which means that for me both amplifiers perform adequately in terms of bass response. In fact, I'm actually inclined to agree with you in the bass department. For the me the critical difference between these two is the way these two amplifiers are voiced: the Gilmore Lite is a perfect example of a neutral sound, it doesn't add or detract anything in the overall frequency response while maintaining a smooth and grain-less upper midrange to treble area. It's slightly bright without being harsh and it's a bit to the thin side without being bodiless, a pleasant listening. The Concerto on the other hand while still overall sporting a neutral color, it's _less _neutral compared to the Gilmore Lite. The most obvious area is for me in the upper midrange area in which the Concerto is pushed forward a bit perhaps to emphasize details (the HD800 is also voiced in this manner) while the lower midrange is recessed just so ever slightly to compensate for the boosted upper midrange. 
   
  In terms of technical merits such as details and bass control, I would say that the Concerto has an obvious edge. Indeed, the Gilmore Lite is neutral but this very honest presentation doesn't suit all headphones (and people) I'd imagine because it's too vanilla. However, I would surmise that the primary weakness of the Concerto is its lack of power. It slightly lacks the authority to drive the HD650 which is obvious when compared to the WA6. Even the measly M-Stage has a lot more oomph compared to the Concerto.


----------



## superjohny

i am going to put trigger on rudistor rp010b mkii.
   
  anyone had experience with this amp with lcd-2?


----------



## MacedonianHero

We certainly don't agree on much (but that's ok)...and I find the power of the Concerto is better than the GLite...no doubt. It powers my T1s/HD800s to incredible heights with the volume knob set to only 11 o'clock. On the GLite, I had to crank it to 2-3 o'clock. Now to confirm, I have not heard the GLite with the DPS so that might have more juice than just the GLite on it's own.
   
  With regards to neutrality, I found the GLite slightly bright to be considered absolutely neutral. I prefer the Concerto by a small margin in that regard.
   
  Regardless, when you finish that B22 of yours...it is the best SS amp bar none that I've heard with the HD800s.


----------



## Solude

Concerto is definitely higher power than Dynalo but where you sit on the pot only relates to attenuation versus gain.  Concerto not having a sweep makes comparison that much harder 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  End of the day, Dynalo 1W, Concerto 6W.  My average listening level... 1mW


----------



## oqvist

Since when did the Concerto become a 6W amp


----------



## K3cT

Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> We certainly don't agree on much (but that's ok)...and I find the power of the Concerto is better than the GLite...no doubt. It powers my T1s/HD800s to incredible heights with the volume knob set to only 11 o'clock. On the GLite, I had to crank it to 2-3 o'clock. Now to confirm, I have not heard the GLite with the DPS so that might have more juice than just the GLite on it's own.
> 
> With regards to neutrality, I found the GLite slightly bright to be considered absolutely neutral. I prefer the Concerto by a small margin in that regard.
> 
> Regardless, when you finish that B22 of yours...it is the best SS amp bar none that I've heard with the HD800s.


 
   
  Yeah, I'd agree that power-wise Concerto is probably better than the Gilmore Lite and I also agree that the Lite is also slightly to the bright side. I suppose I just have issues with the colorations in the Concerto.
   
  In my opinion, the HD800 needs some tube love to absolutely shine! I thought you of all people know this the best. I suppose the added warmth does wonders with this particular can and I know it sounds amazing with the Zana Deux.


----------



## Solude

Quote: 





oqvist said:


> Since when did the Concerto become a 6W amp


 


  P=VI 13V, .5A... 6.5W.  Obviously its not 6.5W into every load but then Dynalo isn't 1W into all loads either.  Both are overkill for most headphones.


----------



## oqvist

Ah misstaking W for mA


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





k3ct said:


> In my opinion, the HD800 needs some tube love to absolutely shine!


 


  This we do agree on!


----------



## jermng

How will a Little Dot Mk IV SE work with the LCD-2?

 I've got one on the way and wondering if it'll be a good match with the LCD-2 which I wanna get. 

 The other amp I have is the iBasso D12 portable.


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





jermng said:


> How will a Little Dot Mk IV SE work with the LCD-2?
> 
> I've got one on the way and wondering if it'll be a good match with the LCD-2 which I wanna get.
> 
> The other amp I have is the iBasso D12 portable.


 

 Not sure about the MKIV, but my D10 is hopelessly underpowered with my LCD-2s. I find that the LCD-2s work best with a powerfully desktop SS amp. (Although they also do sound very good with some tube amps).


----------



## Asr

Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> We certainly don't agree on much (but that's ok)...and I find the power of the Concerto is better than the GLite...no doubt. It powers my T1s/HD800s to incredible heights with the volume knob set to only 11 o'clock. On the GLite, I had to crank it to 2-3 o'clock.


 

 Volume does not equate power output, and what you're describing is more a function of gain than power output.


----------



## wht

Quote: 





asr said:


> Volume does not equate power output, and what you're describing is more a function of gain than power output.


 

  
  With respect, the statement above is not strictly true.  Volume is a function of the power drawn from or put out by the amplifier.
   
  I suspect what you intended to say was that power put out from different amplifiers are not necessarily the same based on the same positions of the volume knobs.


----------



## volume

Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> Not sure about the MKIV, but my D10 is hopelessly underpowered with my LCD-2s. I find that the LCD-2s work best with a powerfully desktop SS amp. (Although they also do sound very good with some tube amps).


 

 I don't know what the fuss is about with different headphone amps sometimes, what we as humans sometimes do is making things way more complicated then they  actually are.


----------



## wht

Quote: 





volume said:


> I don't know what the fuss is about with different headphone amps sometimes, what we as humans sometimes do is making things way more complicated then they  actually are.


 

 It is true that often enough, we as humans do make things more complicated that necessary.  However, headphone amps do have different capabilities in driving headphones, and they do make a difference.
   
  This may not be so obvious with low-to-mid impedance higher sensitivity headphones but with high impedance headphones and or current hungry headphones, the strengths or weaknesses of headphone amps become obvious quite easily.


----------



## volume

Quote: 





wht said:


> It is true that often enough, we as humans do make things more complicated that necessary.  However, headphone amps do have different capabilities in driving headphones, and they do make a difference.
> 
> This may not be so obvious with low-to-mid impedance higher sensitivity headphones but with high impedance headphones and or current hungry headphones, the strengths or weaknesses of headphone amps become obvious quite easily.


 


 The headphone in question is a low-mid impedance one LCD2, the last time I auditioned it wasn't any where close to a power hungry DT 880 600 ohm headphone.


----------



## wht

Quote: 





volume said:


> The headphone in question is a low-mid impedance one LCD2, the last time I auditioned it wasn't any where close to a power hungry DT 880 600 ohm headphone.


 
   
  Firstly, the sensitivity of a headphone has a direct influence on its drivability. For example, the DT880 has a sensitivity of 96 dB while the LCD-2 has a sensitivity of 91 dB.  Roughly, it means that the LCD-2 needs about 4 times the instantaneous power to generate the same volume of the DT880.
   
  Secondly, high impedance cans like the DT880 (600 ohm), need sufficient voltage but put relatively lesser demand on current to be driven properly while low impedance cans like the LCD-2 has a lesser demand on voltage but needs to have sufficient current to be driven properly.  The common problem is, some headphone amps are current limited in their designs even though they may be voltage capable.


----------



## Currawong

volume: High-impedance headphones require a higher voltage swing.  Low impedance headphones require greater current.  Volume is not power.  Most often the volume control is only adjusting the signal input to the amp, and certainly not the amount of power the amp is delivering.
   
  When it comes to headphones and speakers, an amp's capabilities relate to its ability to consistently deliver wildly varying amounts of power.  This is why Class A amps tend to be most favoured, as their circuits already have a large amount of power running through them in reserve, not needing that power to suddenly be drawn for use.
   
  With many low-impedance headphones, you can observe yourself what happens if you attempt to use them with an insufficient amp -- the bass rolls off early as the amp can't supply enough power to deliver low-frequency energy.


----------



## volume

Quote: 





wht said:


> Firstly, the sensitivity of a headphone has a direct influence on its drivability. For example, the DT880 has a sensitivity of 96 dB while the LCD-2 has a sensitivity of 91 dB.  Roughly, it means that the LCD-2 needs about 4 times the instantaneous power to generate the same volume of the DT880.
> 
> Secondly, high impedance cans like the DT880 (600 ohm), need sufficient voltage but put relatively lesser demand on current to be driven properly while low impedance cans like the LCD-2 has a lesser demand on voltage but needs to have sufficient current to be driven properly.  The common problem is, some headphone amps are current limited in their designs even though they may be voltage capable.


 


 What would you say then is the decent current and voltage requirements or specs from an amp to drive the LCD2


----------



## wht

Quote: 





volume said:


> What would you say then is the decent current and voltage requirements or specs from an amp to drive the LCD2


 

 As an example, I find the Concerto and LCD-2 a sweet combination.  On the other hand, just for fun, I tried my Mustang with the LCD-2 and it was quite a disaster.


----------



## milosz

The best amp I've heard with my LCD-2's is the Beta 22.  The Beta 22 is a very fine amp.


----------



## oqvist

For me it was the GHP... But the Ref 9 has really turned things over. My Trafomator Head One has never been bad but on the DAC19 I felt it was just to soft. To much detail got lost. Bass was wet at times and piano wasn´t rendered correctly all of the time for example. GHP had no such problem.
   
  On the Ref 9 all the less good stuff is removed but the good stuff is better then ever! Plays bigger then the GHP with classical in particular and it just sound natural. The Attack for piano is just right and no excessive decays anymore on the LCD-2. The GHP is still very enjoyable but the Head One is now the most natural sounding. And it´s better then the DAC19/GHP combo surely.
   
  Initially I thought the Head one was lacking current or something for the LCD-2 but that doesn´t seem to be the case. If so I would expect more bass issues like I got with the Ref9 on my speakers.


----------



## Toad

Just got my email to purchase my lcd2, however after reading some of the more recent posts I'm a bit worried if my WA6 (maxed with pdps) is sufficient. Currently I'm driving a pair of rs1s with it and very happy. Will the lcd2 be a substantial upgrade over my rs1 or does the WA6 not really offer enough power to make much of a difference? I'm pretty torn on what to do, sell my rs1 and buy the lcd2, or just stay with my rs1 and wait til I can afford a more powerful amp before upgrading my headphones.
   
  If someone could just make this decision for me on what I should do I'd appreciate it, haha....Soo whattya guys say? Should I hop on the lcd2 bandwagon while sticking with my current setup, or hold off for a bit til I can can afford a more powerful amp?
   
  Thanks!


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





asr said:


> Volume does not equate power output, and what you're describing is more a function of gain than power output.


 


  It is also an indication of the power that the Concerto can put into this load (6.5W ain't bad). 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  Severely underpowered amps can't even get the volume up to enjoyable levels. So that's a no starter right off the bat. Next sonic signature at an adequate volume really then gives one an indication of the suitability of a particular amp with a set of headphones.


----------



## dallan

I don't understand it at all and meant to post over here.  The Zana Duex, built mainly for high impedance phones, drove the LCD2 so wonderfully i couldn't believe it.  I tried them on several amps at the meet and on a fluke brought them over to the Zana.  Those who heard it were blown away.  Very very surprising to me.


----------



## Solude

I believe the ZD has a low output impedance for an OTL.  WA6 will be more than fine.  I think the power requirement is a little over blown.  Yes you will need a powerful amp for go deaf in one night, but only 1mW for 91dB.  Anything above 80dB can damage your hearing.  You do the math.


----------



## oqvist

It´s been mentioned that the LCD-2 is quite an easy load for an amplifier. That is my estimate seeing how well it does out of an Ipod touch and my receiver in comparison to different mid/upper mid range amps.
  But in here it tend to be drowned down by the maximizers that really want to spoil their gear rotten. LCD-2 does that to me as well I don´t normally get after market cables 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  When I get my Moon Audio cable I will test it out of my speaker amp with the stock cable but I don´t expect much honestly.


----------



## nigeljames

I will probably order the Whiplash Audio Twag balanced cable for mine this week.


----------



## Currawong

I indeed wouldn't stress over the amping too much.  It's all relative after all. If you've experienced them on a top-end amp, then a mid-range amp is going to sound less great obviously. You should consider this when reading comments from people who have a variety of high-end amps.  When I was trying the LCD-2s with the Luxman SQ-N100, sure the soundstage was much more intimate, and the treble a bit too rolled-off for best results for me, they still sounded sweet, probably helped by the Esoteric SACD player!


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> A properly designed resistor network will maintain a nominal 6-10 ohm load to the amplifier.


 



   

   

   

   
  Thanks Kevin!!!
   
  Using my integrated tube amp and the this resistor network has been incredible.  This combination has full control of transients and the bass is completely controlled and defined.  I have never been able to find a tube combination that worked with the D7000s, being such a low impedance can with a massive sub bass...no tube amps could control the bass on this can until now.  This tube integrated that I have sounds very much like solid state with a full grip on transients - with the addition of the tube soundstage, imaging and spaciousness.  It has by far the largest soundstage of all my headphone amps - I have no desire to upgrade to a high end tube amp.  The BCL is perhaps very well known for its fast transients and I can't believe this tube integrated can compete in this regard.  My cans have never sounded this good before!!!


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





sp wild said:


> Thanks Kevin!!!
> 
> Using my integrated tube amp and the this resistor network has been incredible.  This combination has full control of transients and the bass is completely controlled and defined.  I have never been able to find a tube combination that worked with the D7000s, being such a low impedance can with a massive sub bass...no tube amps could control the bass on this can until now.  This tube integrated that I have sounds very much like solid state with a full grip on transients - with the addition of the tube soundstage, imaging and spaciousness.  It has by far the largest soundstage of all my headphone amps - I have no desire to upgrade to a high end tube amp.  The BCL is perhaps very well known for its fast transients and I can't believe this tube integrated can compete in this regard.  My cans have never sounded this good before!!!


 

 I like your lead dress!!    If you want really good sound substitute those lousy inductive wirewound resistors with some good high quality metal film jobs and you're in business!
  Cheers!


----------



## Skylab

I don't listen at loud levels, but my maxxed WA6 with pdps works very well with the LCD-2, IMHO.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





toad said:


> Just got my email to purchase my lcd2, however after reading some of the more recent posts I'm a bit worried if my WA6 (maxed with pdps) is sufficient. Currently I'm driving a pair of rs1s with it and very happy. Will the lcd2 be a substantial upgrade over my rs1 or does the WA6 not really offer enough power to make much of a difference? I'm pretty torn on what to do, sell my rs1 and buy the lcd2, or just stay with my rs1 and wait til I can afford a more powerful amp before upgrading my headphones.
> 
> If someone could just make this decision for me on what I should do I'd appreciate it, haha....Soo whattya guys say? Should I hop on the lcd2 bandwagon while sticking with my current setup, or hold off for a bit til I can can afford a more powerful amp?
> 
> Thanks!


 
  Regardless of what others may say, I personally, have found the stock WA6 to be marginal when used to drive the LCD-2s.  It is a lovely amp, but can and will clip on extreme transients when driving the Audeze's.


----------



## Skylab

I should also mention I am using the WA6 with 6FD7 tubes, rather than the stock 6DE7.  The 6FD7's Triode 1 has a mu of 64, versus 17.5 for the 6DE7.
   
  Also, the WA6 would definitely not be my FIRST choice of amps to use with the LCD-2.  But the ones that I would chose over it, in the tube world, are all $1K and up.


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> I like your lead dress!!    If you want really good sound substitute those lousy inductive wirewound resistors with some good high quality metal film jobs and you're in business!
> Cheers!


 
   
  OK no worries, I'll look into it!
   
   
  For those interested, after Kevins encouragement, I did some research and found this diagram for which I followed...the resistors cost me $7 bucks and I used CAT6 solid core copper cabling.


----------



## grokit

SP, how do you you hook your K1000 to that speaker tap adapter? I wouldn't think they would want the resistors, plus they do not have a 1/4" SE jack, do they?


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





sp wild said:


> OK no worries, I'll look into it!
> 
> 
> For those interested, after Kevins encouragement, I did some research and found this diagram for which I followed...the resistors cost me $7 bucks and I used CAT6 solid core copper cabling.


 
  I applaud you for your efforts!!   FYI, there are better ways (more effective and sound better) to implement a headphone adapter circuit.


----------



## dminches

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Also, the WA6 would definitely not be my FIRST choice of amps to use with the LCD-2.  But the ones that I would chose over it, in the tube world, are all $1K and up.


 

 And you have owned at least half of them at one time or another!


----------



## Toad

Thanks for the advice guys, I guess I'll probably stick with my current setup and pass on the lcd2 at this time. I would've liked to have been able to order them and test them for myself, but not at the risk of having to pay a 15% restocking fee should they not mesh well with my amp...Oh well, I guess I can look at the positive side that I just saved $1000. I don't know if it's even possible, but if someone who is wait listed would like to buy my pair I'd be more than glad to contact audeze and see if you can just take my place in line so that you don't have to wait the 2 months and can just purchase them now. Thanks again for the help


----------



## Solude

Currently no harm in trying, people are paying full price used right now to skip ahead in line.


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> I applaud you for your efforts!!   FYI, there are better ways (more effective and sound better) to implement a headphone adapter circuit.


 

 I guess it wouldn't be derailing this thread if you could enlighten us some more.  I have only seen two designs on the web...the Grado circuit that I posted up and another one which apparently raises the output impedance to 120ohms.  Please share!!!


----------



## Frank I

just received the meir Concerto I bought from Sokolov and using it now with the LCD2. As it is burned in I am hearing it at its max and I agree with all said it is very good with the LCD2 and drives it with no issue better than the Matrix and PS Audio will post impressions when I get a complete handle on everything but this is one very good solid state amp.


----------



## TheWuss

Quote: 





frank i said:


> just received the meir Concerto I bought from Sokolov and using it now with the LCD2. As it is burned in I am hearing it at its max and I agree with all said it is very good with the LCD2 and drives it with no issue better than the Matrix and PS Audio will post impressions when I get a complete handle on everything but this is one very good solid state amp.


 

 don't forget the Schiit.  it's better than that one too, right?


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





thewuss said:


> don't forget the Schiit.  it's better than that one too, right?


 

 Frank sold it off in a few days and he PM'd me that he put the Concerto box away as it's staying...so I'm thinking he likes it more. For me, its the best SS amp I've heard under $1K. It works very well with the LCD-2s, D7000s, T1s, HD800s and hopefully my incoming Edition 8s.


----------



## bsaac

kwkarth said:


> Regardless of what others may say, I personally, have found the stock WA6 to be marginal when used to drive the LCD-2s.  It is a lovely amp, but can and will clip on extreme transients when driving the Audeze's.









 Do you happen to know how he WA6 SE would fair with the LCD-2's 



 I've just order this amp and was eyeing off a pair of LCD-2's to pair it up with so any opinions would be handy


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





thewuss said:


> don't forget the Schiit.  it's better than that one too, right?


 


  I have heard the GLite , Schiit, Matrix and the PS Audio. The Meir outclasses all of the them and has great synergy with both the T1 and LCD2. The Decware is more transparent but the Concerto will not clip the LCD2 and is musical and a very nice compliment to my tube Decware . I put the box away already and feel confident that I now have the SS amp that will keep me happy. I still prefer tubes but the Meir will get plenty of time with the LCD2. Out of the bunch of amps the Schitt was the most difficult to listen too.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: from bsaac 





> Do you happen to know how he WA6 SE would fair with the LCD-2's
> 
> 
> 
> I've just order this amp and was eyeing off a pair of LCD-2's to pair it up with so any opinions would be handy


 
   
   
   
  Much better...In fact, I liked that amp very, very much with the LCD-2s.


----------



## nigeljames

THe Woo6 se is a good match with the LCD-2's. The sound is full bodied,powerful and dynamic. Plenty of detail and clarity as well.
  I have just ordered a balanced TWAG cable from Whiplash Audio.
  Looking forward to trying if balanced through my Roc.


----------



## K_19

+3 for the WA6SE.  An excellent combination from personal experience.


----------



## musicman59

I tried them with my fully upgraded WA5-LE and also with my Rudistor RP010B MkII. They sounded pretty good out of the Woo but they actually sounded better out of the Rudi. IMO the way to go is a good quality SS amp.


----------



## Skylab

I will have a full review i9n a week or so, but I can say that the Apex Peak/Volcano is absolutely excellent with the LCD-2.


----------



## Equus

Quote: 





skylab said:


> I will have a full review i9n a week or so, but I can say that the Apex Peak/Volcano is absolutely excellent with the LCD-2.


 


  Nice.  More gear for me to be curious about.  Too bad there was apparently tube issues when it visited Seattle.


----------



## Francoy

I’m at a loss here... After about 2 hours reading I’m not too sure if the Nuforce Icon HDP is a good match for the LCD-2s or not!?
   
   
  I’m am looking for a cheap (hey, 'cause I’m poor!) but decent computer rig solution. Would I be better off with a 500 $ ish amp and buy a somewhat decent DAC in a year’s time - or go for the Icon HDP and look to upgrade the amp if I ever feel the need to...
   
  Thanks for your advices!


----------



## Equus

Unfortunately, I don't have any experience with Nuforce products, so I can't speak about them.  It's actually surprising how many different amps do work real well with the LCD-2 though.  The Protector comes to mind...and even the built-in amp on my Forte soundcard sounds pretty good.
  
  Quote: 





francoy said:


> I’m at a loss here... After about 2 hours reading I’m not too sure if the Nuforce Icon HDP is a good match for the LCD-2s or not!?
> 
> 
> I’m am looking for a cheap (hey, 'cause I’m poor!) but decent computer rig solution. Would I be better off with a 500 $ ish amp and buy a somewhat decent DAC in a year’s time - or go for the Icon HDP and look to upgrade the amp if I ever feel the need to...
> ...


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote: 





francoy said:


> I’m at a loss here... After about 2 hours reading I’m not too sure if the Nuforce Icon HDP is a good match for the LCD-2s or not!?
> 
> 
> I’m am looking for a cheap (hey, 'cause I’m poor!) but decent computer rig solution. Would I be better off with a 500 $ ish amp and buy a somewhat decent DAC in a year’s time - or go for the Icon HDP and look to upgrade the amp if I ever feel the need to...
> ...


 

 The HDP is a good match for the LCD-2.  The CEntrance DACmini I tried at RMAF is a little better match, but it's going to cost $700-800 and not out yet.  But for $450 I don't think you get anything better for computer audio to drive the LCD-2.  The uDAC-2 is not as good as the HDP, but it's not bad at all with LCD-2, and it does seem to drive the LCD-2 better than the portable CEntrance DACport that I have here.
   
  PS:  With LCD-2 the HDP sounds a lot like the Pico DAC > RSA Protector balanced, but the Pico/Protector with 4-pin XLR adapter costs about $950 combined.


----------



## oqvist

Quote: 





equus said:


> Unfortunately, I don't have any experience with Nuforce products, so I can't speak about them.  It's actually surprising how many different amps do work real well with the LCD-2 though.  The Protector comes to mind...and even the built-in amp on my Forte soundcard sounds pretty good.


 


 X2. Don´t sweat the amp requirements to much. The Audio GD Ref9 has been my best upgrade for the LCD-2 so far. Maybe due to being lucky having the right amps to start with of course but the DAC19 is not a bad DAC in my book. The amps I kept are no current monsters I do believe.


----------



## Cya|\|

Finally got my lovely cube linear ``. Now i can seariously test the headphones


----------



## .Sup

oqvist you had the Auditor. You didn't like it with the LCD2?


----------



## Duckman

May I jump in here. I had this combo when I first received the LCD2, and it is not a good match at all, IMO.
   
  Couldn't listen to it.
  
  Quote: 





.sup said:


> oqvist you had the Auditor. You didn't like it with the LCD2?


----------



## .Sup

Quote: 





duckman said:


> May I jump in here. I had this combo when I first received the LCD2, and it is not a good match at all, IMO.
> 
> Couldn't listen to it.


 

 Interesting. What source did you have? I'm assuming you didn't like it because both Auditor and LCD2 are very neutral? Did it sound too harsh? thanks


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





duckman said:


> May I jump in here. I had this combo when I first received the LCD2, and it is not a good match at all, IMO.
> 
> Couldn't listen to it.


 
   
  Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the output impedance of the Auditor/Phonitor like 100ohms? That might explain it.


----------



## Duckman

Don't think it was a source problem. From memory, the sound was muddy and ill-defined. It was just completely sub-standard. My DT250 sounded far better from the Auditor, and that is an inferior headphone. I packed the LCD2 away for ages.
   
  Absolutely not recommended 
   
  I love absolutes.
  
  Quote: 





.sup said:


> Interesting. What source did you have? I'm assuming you didn't like it because both Auditor and LCD2 are very neutral? Did it sound too harsh? thanks


----------



## oqvist

The Auditor bashing is a maaaaaybe a bit exhaggerated I would say for the LCD-2. But that is maybe due to being less bad with the LCD-2 then my other low impedance headphones. Found it funny how it could congest and be bassy with all the low impedance headphone I got. While on the T1 having a soundstage like no other amp I tried. SPL probably doesn´t lie when they say it´s made for 600 ohm headphones. 
   
  I had no problem enjoying the LCD-2 on the Auditor however  the GHP was clearly better on these ears even to a lesser extent then on my other headphones. If I would have to choose between the Auditor and the V200 I would go with the Auditor. The colouration on the V200 bugged me a bit even though it appeared to have a bit more juice then the Auditor. V200 is a good amp surely so I like to see it the way that my GHP is really really good rather then these two amps being bad. If you look by parts particularly the Auditor do impress with a massive PSU supply. .


----------



## K3cT

My problem with the Auditor/Phonitor is it felt like listening to music through a glass: very un-involving and the amplifier has a tendency to smooth things up too much for me.


----------



## milford30

HDP sounds good, i'm using that combo at the moment, not looking at upgrading at the moment..... might get a tube amp down the road some time just to try when i have more money tho...
  Quote: 





francoy said:


> I’m at a loss here... After about 2 hours reading I’m not too sure if the Nuforce Icon HDP is a good match for the LCD-2s or not!?
> 
> 
> I’m am looking for a cheap (hey, 'cause I’m poor!) but decent computer rig solution. Would I be better off with a 500 $ ish amp and buy a somewhat decent DAC in a year’s time - or go for the Icon HDP and look to upgrade the amp if I ever feel the need to...
> ...


----------



## Duckman

Not trying to bash. In fairness, I should say I really liked the Auditor for my other headphones. Certainly an excellent amp, but IMO, not for the LCD2.
   
  At the time I had the LCD2/Auditor side by side with an O2/Exstata rig, and there was no comparison. The LCD2 was shelved.
   
  Even when the O2 rig was gone, the Beyer DT250 sounded far better from the Auditor than the Audeze did. But I am repeating myself.
   
  However, through the B22, the LCD2 is very competitive with the O2 (a bit behind incertain areas, but better in others). Very different experience though.


----------



## Cya|\|

For those of you who have the BCL, what gain do you use? What does the gain exactly do? Does it only change the voulume per pot setting?


----------



## Solude

Quote:  





> However, through the B22, the LCD2 is very competitive with the O2 (a bit behind incertain areas, but better in others). Very different experience though.


 
   
  
  So true.  In fact depending on your music preferences they pretty much make the ideal rig depending on where you sit music wise.  My O2/KGSS is gone and I'm left with the LCD-2/B22 and couldn't be happier... for my music preference


----------



## Francoy

Thanks HeadphoneAddict  and milford30 for the cues regarding the HDP :¬)


----------



## TruBrew

I plan on ordering a Pair of LCD-2's by the end of the week, and now need to start searching for an amp. I am willing to spend around $1500 on an amp but don't know where to go. I have read through most of this thread and have come up with a few ideas. I was hoping for some advice. 
   
Option 1 is the Blossom BLO-0299, but I can't find anyone who has had the combo to give an opinion. Skylab in his review said they worked well together but nothing spectacular, but only had sing ended cables for the test. 
   
An idea I received from this thread is the Decware Mini Torii. It isn't a HP amp, but can be modded as one. This kind of creates a tube vs SS question, and also balanced vs SE. 
   
I was originally looking at the Audio-GD Phoenix, but from what I have been reading Audio-Gd gear doesn't seem to mesh well with the LCD-2's. I am happy to consider anything in this general price range, but it can be very hard to find direct comparisons, and I can not afford to buy both and sell the loser.


----------



## BournePerfect

Buy the Concerto, send me the $800 I saved you, and call it a day. You're welcome.
   
  -Daniel


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote: 





trubrew said:


> I plan on ordering a Pair of LCD-2's by the end of the week, and now need to start searching for an amp. I am willing to spend around $1500 on an amp but don't know where to go. I have read through most of this thread and have come up with a few ideas. I was hoping for some advice.
> 
> Option 1 is the Blossom BLO-0299, but I can't find anyone who has had the combo to give an opinion. Skylab in his review said they worked well together but nothing spectacular, but only had sing ended cables for the test.
> 
> ...


 

 I heard the LCD-2 out of several amps at RMAF, but several of the LCD-2 had different cables attached.  The Blossom with balanced silver dragon cable sounded very nice, and slightly better than my stock cable LCD-2 with my ZDT amp.   However, I thought the Blossom was better suited for my HD800, while the Isabellina HPA with LCD-2 and ALO 8-wire single ended cable was the best combo I heard. 
   
  Out of the amps that I have here at home, I prefer the LCD-2 with my WA6 and Sylvania VT-231 tubes and adapter, instead of the stock 6DE7 tubes.  I'm using the Sophia Princess 274b rectifier which some have commented as being a brighter sounding tube, like the VT-231s.  Since you have a higher budget, you might consider the more powerful WA6SE instead, but the 6SN7 adapters for WA6SE are more complicated (although you may not need them since you can use a wide variety of tubes already).  My ZDT is a little darker with LCD-2 than I like, so I'm going to do more tube rolling, but fortunately it's out of your budget anyway so you don't have to worry about it.
   
  After hearing the LCD-2 with RSA's new SR-71b amp at RMAF I plan to get one when it comes out, and I'll feed my Pico DAC or HDP into it for my computer rig.  It had noticeably more power in balanced mode than my Protector and surprisingly good synergy with the LCD-2 without sounding dark at all.  The SR-71b was a little bright with the HD800, but was great with HD600 and HE-5 LE as well.  However, the SR-71b did sound better with HD800 than my Protector which gives them more grain and treble than I like.
   
  I'm also going to get the Silver Dragon cable with the mini XLR, and the adapter extension to plug them into 4-pin XLR balanced amps.  They also have adapters to plug right into the Protector/SR-71b, or single ended amps.  I already have a nice TWag Protector to 4-pin XLR adapter, and APS V3 4-pin to single ended adapter, and another APS V3 adapter to connect that to an amp with dual 3-pin.  So I wont get those extra silver dragon adapters until later on, after I've tried the re-cabled LCD-2 with a variety of additional amps.


----------



## K3cT

Quote: 





trubrew said:


> I plan on ordering a Pair of LCD-2's by the end of the week, and now need to start searching for an amp. I am willing to spend around $1500 on an amp but don't know where to go. I have read through most of this thread and have come up with a few ideas. I was hoping for some advice.
> 
> Option 1 is the Blossom BLO-0299, but I can't find anyone who has had the combo to give an opinion. Skylab in his review said they worked well together but nothing spectacular, but only had sing ended cables for the test.
> 
> ...


 

 There is the tube amp that Asr seems to like with the LCD-2 in the RMAF which also happens to be in your price range right? That's a reasonable option.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





headphoneaddict said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  I have yet to hear the Centrance Mini outside of a trade show environment, but in the 700-800 buck price range, one great option I've found is the Peachtree musicbox.  It has full remote operation, 5 input pre-amp, 25WPC mosfet power amp, a descent crystal DAC with USB, coax, and iPod inputs, tube front end.  For 700 bux, you can't beat it with a stick.  It drives the LCD-2s quite nicely.  I listen to it daily.
   
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/513165/peachtree-musicbox-is-the-solution-i-ve-been-waiting-for


----------



## TruBrew

HeadphoneAddict, Have you heard the HP's with the Whiplash TWags by chance. I was looking at those and the silver dragons but have no idea if pure silver, or silver coated copper is better.
   
  Also since you say you like the WA6 combo, have you by chance heard the WA22, it is a bit more money than I was looking at, but the balanced factor in intriguing. The Mini Torii is still a consideration, if anyone has compared it to the WA6SE or WA22 I would love to hear an opinion.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote: 





trubrew said:


> HeadphoneAddict, Have you heard the HP's with the Whiplash TWags by chance. I was looking at those and the silver dragons but have no idea if pure silver, or silver coated copper is better.
> 
> Also since you say you like the WA6 combo, have you by chance heard the WA22, it is a bit more money than I was looking at, but the balanced factor in intriguing. The Mini Torii is still a consideration, if anyone has compared it to the WA6SE or WA22 I would love to hear an opinion.


 

 I have not heard them with the TWag, sorry.  Just the Silver Dragon, ALO 4-wire and ALO 8-wire (I think called "chain mail").  I heard them in different rigs and can't comment on a comparison of all 3, other than they all beat the stock cable and the ALO 8-wire was more transparent and micro-detailed than the 4-wire.  The differences would all be pretty subtle, as cables are the last tweak to do after getting the right source and amp to pair with them.  I don't which ALO the Silver Dragon would compare to best, but it was quite good and nicely balanced with the SR-71b balanced amp (no pun intended).  
   
  If you really want a mix of silver and copper, I have always loved the APureSound V3 cable which is a silver cable wrapped around a copper core, and the silver and copper only touch at the solder points.  I'm guessing it's like a sushi roll, where the silver is the rice on the outside, the seaweed in the barrier, and the copper is the fish on the inside.  However, when I compared a Silver Dragon to the APS V3 cable on an HD600, they sounded almost the same.  That same silver dragon was later installed on a PS-1 and sounded great.
   
  As for the Woo question - In the past I have compared the Prototype WA22 that used 12AU7 tubes to my WA6 using the 6DE7 tubes (summer 2009), but not with both amps using the 6SN7 tubes.  Back then, the WA6 had the same timbre and tone and frequency response as the WA22, but the WA6 soundstage was more forward and narrower than the WA22.  I almost bought the prototype and sold the WA6, but I was putting all my money into the WES instead.


----------



## TheWuss

TruBrew - Bender wearing Beyers.  now my favorite avatar of all time. 
   
  Benderdynamic.   hahahahahaha


----------



## TruBrew

Quote: 





thewuss said:


> TruBrew - Bender wearing Beyers.  now my favorite avatar of all time.
> 
> Benderdynamic.   hahahahahaha


 

 Thanks. I had been trying to sell that bender head(dvd box set) because I have them all ripped to my network server, but decided to keep it after I realized I could not sell it for any more than what it would cost me to buy a new headphone stand. The disks are going to waste, but it does make an amusing stand.


----------



## El_Doug

Quote: 





trubrew said:


> Thanks. I had been trying to sell that bender head(dvd box set) because I have them all ripped to my network server, but decided to keep it after I realized I could not sell it for any more than what it would cost me to buy a new headphone stand. The disks are going to waste, but it does make an amusing stand.


 


  Another plus, you don't end up breaking the law by ripping and selling the discs!   
   
  I love the idea of using Bender as a stand


----------



## stef50millbay

I have heard the LCD-2 with a few combos now..If you are on a budget with no gear,a matrix mini will serve you well.Next up would be a Meir Concerto.For tubes ,the mini tori works like a champ,with the headphone mod and even the miniwatt adapter for speaker taps..I notice on Skylabs photo of the mini tori,you have changed some tubes,could you tell us what those "coke bottle" power tubes are, those  and the other rolls you made would be very useful to know..Thanks Skylab.


----------



## Asr

Quote: 





k3ct said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I did not listen to any tube amps with my LCD-2 at RMAF. You might be thinking of my listening to the Schiit Valhalla with the T1: http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/518094/rmaf-2010-denver-canjam-rmaf-impressions-in-case-people-missed-seeing-this-in-the-meet-forum/45#post_7028475


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





stef50millbay said:


> I have heard the LCD-2 with a few combos now..If you are on a budget with no gear,a matrix mini will serve you well.Next up would be a Meir Concerto.For tubes ,the mini tori works like a champ,with the headphone mod and even the miniwatt adapter for speaker taps..I notice on Skylabs photo of the mini tori,you have changed some tubes,could you tell us what those "coke bottle" power tubes are, those  and the other rolls you made would be very useful to know..Thanks Skylab.


 


  The power tubes I am using are Sylvania 6V6G's.  I also am using Tung-Sol 12BH7's in place of the stock 12AU7.  This amp is absolutely terrific with planar/ortho headphones.


----------



## stef50millbay

Thanks Skylab for the info,I have just ordered

 SYLVANIA 6V6G VT-107-B - MINT NOS 1950s Smoke Glass ST Coke Bottle Military Production - Made in USA (M. Pairs/Singles) 2
 
    
  I also brought a matching pair of NOS RCA 12BH7A..When the sylvania come I will roll all four...The Decware amp already sounds superb and get better every day. I can highly recommend this for LCD-2.The Decware work is top notch and I can now see now, why they have so many fans.Cheers.


----------



## K3cT

Quote: 





asr said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


  My apologies. My memories failed me and hence, I mistook you for jp11801. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  The amplifier I was referring to is the Rethm SET amp as posted here.


----------



## TruBrew

I am guessing the Rethm amp is not out yet, because I can not find any information on it.


----------



## TruBrew

So I think I have things narrowed down the the WA22 and Mini Torii. Can anyone compare the soundstage of the 2 amp. I assume the WA22 would do a better job being that it is balanced. Since I hear Orthos have some soundstaging issues, it seemed like a concern.


----------



## Frihed89

How does "not enough current" sound?  I am re-thinking my original impressions about the amps I have and their ability to drive these headphones.
   
  Thanks.


----------



## JIGF

Maybe it has been mentioned before, but I do not want to go through 80 pages of discussion.
   
  Any good reports of the LCD2 with the DNA Sonett?


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





trubrew said:


> So I think I have things narrowed down the the WA22 and Mini Torii. Can anyone compare the soundstage of the 2 amp. I assume the WA22 would do a better job being that it is balanced. Since I hear Orthos have some soundstaging issues, it seemed like a concern.


 


  TruBrew I don't think anyone is likely to be able to answer your question.  There are only a very few of us who have the Mini-Torii (I'm only aware of one other head-fier besides me, although there may be a few others).  And I have never heard a WA22.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





trubrew said:


> So I think I have things narrowed down the the WA22 and Mini Torii. Can anyone compare the soundstage of the 2 amp. I assume the WA22 would do a better job being that it is balanced. Since I hear Orthos have some soundstaging issues, it seemed like a concern.


 

 Just some random thoughts:
   
  The WA22 may sound great with the LCD-2, and it happens to be balanced, but it wouldn't sound great because it is balanced.  If it sounds great it's because it's a great amp, not because it's balanced.  
   
  Soundstaging is one of the most misunderstood aspects of audio reproduction.  The driver technology, ortho or not, has nothing in particular to do with the perceived soundstage of a given headphone.
   
  It's one thing to faithfully record, preserve, and reproduce the soundstage of a given venue, it's quite another to artificially enhance or psycho-acoustically create a sense of soundstage through subtle frequency response manipulation, cross feed technology, and the like.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





frihed89 said:


> How does "not enough current" sound?  I am re-thinking my original impressions about the amps I have and their ability to drive these headphones.
> 
> Thanks.


 

 If a headphone is under powered, one will typically hear anemic, and lackluster sound, possibly accompanied by occasional clipping on peaks.


----------



## SemiAudiophile

Not sure if this has been covered, but does anyone know if the LCD-2 can be run out of a speaker amp? 
   
*Power Rating:* 25WPC x 2 @ 4 ohms
*Amplifier:*Class D
   
  I emailed Audeze, but haven't gotten an answer yet...


----------



## BebopMcJiggy

I mean I'm pretty sure it CAN be run out of one :O not sure why you would need to do that though.  It can handle up to 15W (into 50 ohms) supposedly so I don't think there is any chance of that speaker amp destroying them :O


----------



## SemiAudiophile

Well none of my current amps seem to be doing it justice. So I figured it needs more juice. I'm thinking that it could probably handle it too, but the question is will it be enough or the right amount?


----------



## InnerSpace

Quote: 





semiaudiophile said:


> Not sure if this has been covered, but does anyone know if the LCD-2 can be run out of a speaker amp?


 
   
  Not only can it, I think it should be.  I think a great low- to medium-powered speaker amp - if it has a good native S/N ratio - is by definition also the best kind of headphone amp.  For maybe 60 or 70 years that market sector has attracted the best talent and has produced the most influential classic designs.  It's where the action has always been.  A great small speaker amp _is_ a headphone amp - with effectively unlimited power reserve.  IME all HPs benefit, and something like the LCD-2 benefits most.


----------



## Frank I

Rob is using the Mini Torri Decware with good results and I just ordered a Taboo Decware with a headphone jack which is 6W to use with my CSP-2 but it also will have a volume control so it could be used either way. I will get it in 5 weeks or so and will post a review. I will also be posting the Meir Concerto for sale after Thanksgiving> PM if anyone is interested. Super amp with the LCD2 but I need to sell it to fund part of the new one.


----------



## matthewh133

Tossing up between a Concerto or WA6 + Sophia for a LCD-2 investment in a few months. Anyone tried both? How do they fair compared to others in this price range?


----------



## Skylab

I have both and marginally prefer the WA6. I've not heard a huge number of other amps in this exact price range, though.


----------



## Junliang

So.. after 81 pages,
   
  is there any conclusive answer as to which amp is best suited for the lcd 2 ?
   
  My LCD 2 is on order, arriving in a few weeks time i guess.
   
  Reading all those opinions and options about amps for lcd 2 just make my head spin..
   
  just want a "one size fits all" kind of amp that can allow me to listen to my lcd 2 without any worries..


----------



## grokit

The Cavellli Liquid Fire seems to be the consensus favorite, but of course not that many have actually heard it. And it is totally unavailable until further notice. Evidently you can't build one either. I hope this post has been helpful.


----------



## matthewh133

Quote: 





skylab said:


> I have both and marginally prefer the WA6. I've not heard a huge number of other amps in this exact price range, though.


 
   
  Thanks Skylab! Would it be possible to ask you why you prefer it over the Concerto?


----------



## Junliang

Quote: 





grokit said:


> The Cavellli Liquid Fire seems to be the consensus favorite, but of course not that many have actually heard it. And it is totally unavailable until further notice. Evidently you can't build one either. I hope this post has been helpful.


 


  But wow, the price tag is way way way out of my budget at $3000..
   
  At a budget of $400~$600+
  is there anything for LCD 2 at that range ?
   

  
  Quote: 





			
				Skylab said:
			
		

> I have both and marginally prefer the WA6. I've not heard a huge number of other amps in this exact price range, though.


 

 Why you said you prefer the WA6, do you mean the stock unit, or upgraded with Sophia Princess ?
  By the way, what does the Sophia Princess mesh plate upgrade does ?


----------



## SemiAudiophile

Well...I got impatient so I decided to strip off the TRS plug and hook up the bare wires to my speaker amp. MUCH better improvement. The sound surrounds you and is enveloping and 3D. Good control, nice and tight, so dynamic. Soundstage seemed bigger and more precise than before. I never heard something so clear before, not clear like no mids, but clear as in precise and in High Definition. The resolution just amazed me.
   
  The only thing was that the cable seemed microphonic, I'm not sure because of the bare wire or what but I also heard some noise when I paused the music. I'm gonna put spades on them later so hopefully that'll take care of the noise issue. And maybe Audeze can make some custom speaker cables. 
   
  But for those looking for an amp, I spent $50 for my Gizmo and I use it to drive my speakers. It's a hell of an amp for the price and it drives the LCD-2 wonderfully. More to come later..


----------



## Solude

Quote: 





grokit said:


> The Cavellli Liquid Fire seems to be the consensus favorite, but of course not that many have actually heard it. And it is totally unavailable until further notice. Evidently you can't build one either. I hope this post has been helpful.


 


  Not sure how an amp that's only been heard in meets and isn't available can be flagged as the one   LCD-2 is no different than anything else, just stay clear of OTL and a good amp will still be good.  B22 is fantastic.


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





matthewh133 said:


> Thanks Skylab! Would it be possible to ask you why you prefer it over the Concerto?


 
   
  Quote: 





junliang said:


> Why you said you prefer the WA6, do you mean the stock unit, or upgraded with Sophia Princess ?
> By the way, what does the Sophia Princess mesh plate upgrade does ?


 


  The WA6 has a bit more of a depth to the soundstage, and a bit more of an organic sound to the midrange, when combined with the LCD-2, that I like.  But again, that preference is very slight.
   
  My WA6 is running a Hytron 5U4G rectifier tube and Sylvania 6FD7 signal tubes.  I am not using any of the over-hyped current-production big rectifier tubes.


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





solude said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I have to agree that I don't think it can be accurate that the Liquid Fire is the "consensus favorite".  At best it "shows promise".


----------



## JIGF

Quote: 





skylab said:


> I have to agree that I don't think it can be accurate that the Liquid Fire is the "consensus favorite".  At best it "shows promise".


 
   
  Is there a consensus after 81 pages of discussion?


----------



## Skylab

jigf said:


> Is there a consensus after 81 pages of discussion?






LOL...Right...I would say that no, there is not.


----------



## Jazz1

So would the PS Audio GCHA be worth a try with the LCD-2 given this amplfier's characteristics? I have this amplifier and just got on the wait list.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


  Well the Liquid Fire was the early consensus favorite anyways, but then it went into hibernation. We'll see what kind of shape it's in when it re-emerges!


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





jigf said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 LoL...is there ever a consensus here?

 Typical rule of thumb: Two Head-fiers = 3 or more opinions!


----------



## SemiAudiophile

I finally know what people mean when people have been saying the LCD-2 is a revealing headphone. I just switched from using D10 to the m902 and the difference is very noticeable. The sound is so clean. Bigger soundstage/less congestion, such better control, timing, and musicality. I'm liking the Gizmo and LCD-2 pairing so much, I'm thinking about ordering another one just for the LCD-2. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  The only downside about the Gizmo is you really need some kind of preamp to control the gain. Once you do, it's just heavenly. 
   
  And the good part is there's a bass and treble control setting to tweak to your desired preference.


----------



## oqvist

Quote: 





grokit said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Hehe yes there is only a consensus when the beta testers can roam free


----------



## DeadEars

Concensus is usually a bad way to buy anyway.  Concensus = common knowledge.  Which is an oxymoron, being neither common nor knowledge.
   
  Bottom line: let your own ears be the judge. 
   
  For example, I've heard a number of people say that the LCD-2 isn't so great with tubes, and while it will work with the Mapletree Audio Ear+ HD Super, that there may be better matches out there.  Today I made the rounds at the NY meet and came away feeling pretty good about the pairing.  Vinnie's new generation Isabella HPA was damn nice.  I grabbed a quick bite a lunchtime and had a nice quiet time listening to some of my own music listening to it for several cuts.  Wow!  Nice being off the power grid.  VERY quiet background with the sound just leaping out of the darkness!  Dave had a fantastic balanced setup with a Headroom amp that I found especially nice with the Sennheiser HD-800's, and special too with the LCD-2's.  There were half a dozen more setups I auditioned with the LCD's, including a really credible Ray Samuels chip amp.  But after all of that, I still liked the sound best withe the MAD amp (solid-state rectified, EL84 output tubes).  My ears, my preference, don't let my experience dictate what you buy.  But it might suggest some things for you to try at another meet or which you should audition.  At this level you're looking for some special synergies, but unless things are really mis-matched, it's more finding the flavor that works for you rather than a right or wrong answer.
   
  Hope this helps!
   
  Frankl


----------



## Henerenry

I think the tube amp pairing comment is specifically for OTL designs, the MAD super HD being transformer coupled wont have that problem. That being said, listening to the LCD2 on my "up there" OTL amp is a rather average experience.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





henerenry said:


> I think the tube amp pairing comment is specifically for OTL designs, the MAD super HD being transformer coupled wont have that problem. That being said, listening to the LCD2 on my "up there" OTL amp is a rather average experience.


 

 As your profile and signature are empty we have no idea what you are referring to when you are listening to your ""up there" OTL amp".


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





henerenry said:


> I think the tube amp pairing comment is specifically for OTL designs, the MAD super HD being transformer coupled wont have that problem. That being said, listening to the LCD2 on my "up there" OTL amp is a rather average experience.


 


  I use the LCD2 with an OTL my Decware CSP-2 and for 95 percent of the music it works so well. Very detailed and  sounds great. On classical I prefer the T1 but it will work on jazz,pop, rock and most other genre well it can clip on symphony music thus is the reason I decided to order a ^W Taboo to be used with the setup but it also works well on Immitbiker RSA OTL according to Aaron so it will work on some OTL also


----------



## Skylab

The LCD-2 are also excellent on the OTL Woo WA2.  You just need an OTL with lots of power.


----------



## modic

How about hifiman EF5?
  There seems lack of report matching EF5 with lcd2.


----------



## modic

May I ask some silly question?
  Should I consider the amp when choosing DAC?
  I mean is there any bonding between them?
  or if the DAC match with the phone, I could ignore which amp I am using?


----------



## zenbonsakura

I need suggestion on real speaker amp to drives HE-6 and LCD2s. 
   
  How much power @ 8 ohm to make LCD2s reach max output 15W @  50 ohm?
  What is HE-6 max power handling @ 50 ohm?
   
  Any power difference between using ZDT w/silver transformer headphone jacks and speaker output?
  On the wesite said 3W@ 32 ohm can I assume 1.5 - 1.7 W @ 50 ohm?
   
  Thanks


----------



## principd

hello,
Has anyone compared listening to LCD2 on Violectric V200 and Leben cs300xs? Wchich one do you think is better for them?
I see Skylab also said he tested concerto. 
thanks


----------



## Henerenry

I have a fully upgraded wa2 with a handful of tubes.
   
  The wa2 works "good" with the lcd2 but its far from "unfvknbelievable."
   
  It sounds a tad claustrophobic, unless of course that is the intended presentation of the lcd2...
   
  Skylabs since you have heard the LCD2 from a number of amps, can you give me a rough idea of what I could expect moving from a wa2 to a powerful transfomer coupled tube amp such as the leben or the mini tori. Do thinks "open" up a bit more?


----------



## zenbonsakura

Quote: 





henerenry said:


> I have a fully upgraded wa2 with a handful of tubes.
> 
> The wa2 works "good" with the lcd2 but its far from "unfvknbelievable."
> 
> It sounds a tad claustrophobic, unless of course that is the intended presentation of the lcd2...


 
   
  That's what I feel as well.  I hope sound stage expand with more watts.  I'm waiting for speaker adapter to try with onkyo 706 receiver.


----------



## Frihed89

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Thanks.  I'm not sure what to make of this.  On the SS amp, which should be supplying plenty of juice according to the mfr., it just sounds too old-style SS, and that is not the usual presentation of this amp.  On the SP OTL it sounds dark, and lacks definition, but i think that may be due to new Audio Note caps, or perhaps i re-wired the heater Voltage wrong when I de-high powered it.  Even the K-701s, which in sharp contrast to many people, I enjoy very much sounded this way.  So, I'll wait it out. My only previous experience was with a ZDT over a year ago and that sounded gorgeous.  I can still hear it.


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





henerenry said:


> I have a fully upgraded wa2 with a handful of tubes.
> 
> The wa2 works "good" with the lcd2 but its far from "unfvknbelievable."
> 
> ...


 

 No, I don't think that it "opens up" if by that you mean the treble energy increases.  The primary difference is a better sense of dynamic ease.  But maybe that's not what you meant?


----------



## Henerenry

Thanks Skylab, thats what I was kind of hoping to hear.
   
  I will try to audition them with an amp that may be a better match before I decide what to do from here.
   
  Regards
   
  Henry


----------



## Henerenry

Thanks Skylab, thats what I was kind of hoping to hear.
   
  I will try to audition them with an amp that may be a better match before I decide what to do from here.
   
  Regards
   
  Henry


----------



## cheaphifi

Quote: 





oqvist said:


> Please chime in what your best amps are for this headphone or educated guesses compared to previous ortho experiences.


 


  Audio-GD C-2 SA : Solid State very powerful headphone amp : 6000MW / 50 Ohm, 300$ but definitively not a toy !
   
  This amp was concepted specifically for hard-to-drive Orthos Cans 
   
  More info here : http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/Headphoneamp/C-2SA/C2SAEN.htm


----------



## AustinHorn

The production version of the DACmini started shipping Thursday of last week & mine shipped a day later & will be delivered tomorrow. Has anyone who got theirs today or yesterday had a chance to try it out with the LCD2 yet?  I know it will be super early impressions, but I'm trying to decide which headphone will work best with the DACmini.  So any feedback would be appreciated.  I know Headphone Addict had recommended it at some point here as a good match based on hearing the pre-production unit that Michael had displayed recently I believe that the RMFA.  In an email Micheal had mentioned that the final tweeks have greatly improved the mini even more so I have high hopes.  Anyway, if anyone has done any listening to the mini/LCD2 combo, I'd love to hear their early impressions.


----------



## Hellenback

The Little Dot MKVII+ doesn't seem to get a lot of attention these days but I use it with the Matrix Mini-i in balanced mode and couldn't be happier. It's a very powerful/versatile amp at a great price.


----------



## spacemanspliff

Great, now I need a second job. Must hear these. I want to know about the Meier vs J sound too.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





skylab said:


> The LCD-2 are also excellent on the OTL Woo WA2.  You just need an OTL with lots of power.


 


  x2!!


----------



## BournePerfect

Is the CSP2+ considered an OTL with 'a lot of power'? I can't seem to find it's output power ratings on Decware's site. How does it compare to the WA2 power-wise?
   
  -Daniel


----------



## Skylab

The WA2 uses the 6AS7G for the power tube. It has about 8 times the plate current than the 6DJ8 that the CSP-2 uses. I'm not saying the WA2 has 8 times the power - I'm not sure what the ratings of each are. But the WA2 is for sure more powerful.


----------



## BournePerfect

How would you compare the Decware and the Concerto in regards to the LCD2, Rob? Both in terms of power/control and sonically?
   
  -Daniel


----------



## Skylab

I've commented extensively on that before, but in a nutshell, I felt both did a pretty good job, although the CSP-2 is really better with higher impedance headphones - it can lack a little power headroom, whereas the Concerto does not (referring to both with the LCD-2). And neither would be my first choice for use with the LCD-2, even in that price range - that would be the Woo WA6.


----------



## Currawong

I've been surprised lately on how good the LCD-2s even sound out of my iPod/Pico Slim rig.  I'm wondering if I should bother trying to take anything more than that as a rig to Australia.


----------



## regal

Quote: 





frihed89 said:


> I'm thinking about building a dedicated 45 or 2A3 head amp for these headphones, but am worried about the current needed.
> 
> Using an 8 Ohm Transformer output from a 45 i will get around 5V and can produce a fair bit of current. Now 5V across a 50 Ohm load is 0.1A at .5W,
> so i should be able to get to 115dB before clipping. Going for a 2A3 will not really give me much more power.
> ...


 


 Did you try this yet?   Should be plenty of power.


----------



## Vaipec

Hello,
  did anyone tried LCD-2 with *Black Cube Linear?*
   
  thanks


----------



## SP Wild

That's what I am using at the moment.  It works remarkably well IMO, but I am aiming at a higher powered amp to squeeze that last few ounces of performance from these brilliant cans.


----------



## Vaipec

Yeahhh, good news! already pull the trigger on LCD-2... 1 month waiting list. 
   
  Thanks


----------



## vilasn

[size=medium]Had anybody tried LCD-2 with Meier Stepdance?
   
  Thanks.​[/size]


----------



## singh

currently i use the AKG K702, love it  ( wait read on ..)
  I want to upgrade the amp i use.In future most probably i will buy  an HD800 and the LCD 2, so when i buy an amp upgrade i would like it to be future- proof as well(as i take the AKG need a real good amp also )
  I am eying the burson audio HA160D at $1100
   
  but now my real question, should i buy a balanced amp ( as i am ready to spend around 1K-1.2K) , or  is the burson audio good enough for the HD800 and LCD-2 ?


----------



## grokit

Well there are really a lot of diverse opinions on that but your headphone choices can be converted to balanced without rewiring, so that's a plus. But the Burson would drive both headphones very well as I'm pretty sure it has high and low impedance outputs; with the built-in DAC you may be all set depending on what other sources you plan on using.
   
  Here's a good explanation from Balanced Audio's FAQ:
   

 *Is there a simple explanation of the difference between single-ended and balanced operation?*  In this context, the terms "single-ended" and "balanced" describe the type of electrical interface between components: i.e. preamplifiers and power amplifiers. Single-ended interfaces use a "common" conductor (shield, ground or instrument chassis) as a signal return path. Balanced lines, on the other hand, use two dedicated conductors to provide forward and return paths for signal. The ground connection in balanced configurations is accomplished by means of a third, dedicated, ground conductor. Any two components in your system will, most likely, have a measurable voltage difference between their chassis. When a single-ended cable is connected between these two components, this voltage difference will appear along the common conductor (shield) of the interconnect. As a result, the shield will now carry the parasitic ground noise current between the two chassis. Since the shield is directly in the signal path, the voltage drop along the ground conductor will be combined with the signal that the interconnect carries. The result will be added noise and distortion introduced directly into the signal path. In a balanced system, a separate shield or ground conductor will be used to connect the two chassis together, reducing the voltage difference between them. But the voltage drop across the shield will not add to the signal, because this third conductor does not carry the signal. What flows through the balanced interconnect is a clean signal, separated from extraneous ground current and noise. Additional benefits are derived from the fact that balanced circuits are inherently symmetrical. The balanced nature of the internal circuit greatly reduces transient demand on the component power supply, further improving signal integrity and noise immunity.
   
http://www.balanced.com/faq/balanced.html


----------



## singh

well i understand the technicalities,but with good DAC/amps noise is not that big of a problem. but it is said that balanced amps have MUCH better sound stage. 
   
  the thing is the burson one is  a good VFM product. i am concerned weather i can get the similar value with a balanced amp
   
   
  PS: thanks for quick reply !


----------



## Hellenback

Quote: 





singh said:


> well i understand the technicalities,but with good DAC/amps noise is not that big of a problem. but it is said that balanced amps have MUCH better sound stage.
> 
> the thing is the burson one is  a good VFM product. i am concerned weather i can get the similar value with a balanced amp
> 
> ...


 

 I'd vote for even a modest balanced system but have not heard the Burson. If you can try a balanced set-up before buying I think it would serve you to do so.


----------



## Vaipec

SP Wild,
  For a chance, do you also have hd 800 ? If so, how do you compare both with BCL? I do have hd 800 and I preorder LCD-2, but I pretend to keep both.


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





vaipec said:


> SP Wild,
> For a chance, do you also have hd 800 ? If so, how do you compare both with BCL? I do have hd 800 and I preorder LCD-2, but I pretend to keep both.


 

 If you own the BCL alreagy, don't let that stop you from buying the HD800 or LCD2 and enjoying them.  If you don't have the BCL yet, I do believe there are fantastic alternatives out there at the same price that will synergise at least just as well.  The BCL isn't known for its terrific value for money.  If it was good enough for Senheisser, I stand in the position that it is adequate enough for the HD800s strengths to shine.  I do not have a better amp to compare and have never heard any other audio reproduction that I preferred more.
   
  OK, I just realised you were asking a different question altogether.  I have always preferred sound signatures with a gentle treble bias...I prefer the LCD2s.


----------



## Vaipec

LOL,
  in the end you replayed what I wanted. I already have the black cube linear with HD 800... Do you care to share with me your impressions with BCL and LCD-2 ? 
   
  Thanks for fast answer
  Vaipe


----------



## jermng

Just got my email to purchase the LCD-2s ......  
   
  Asked this question before but didn't really get an answer - I;ve got a Little Dot Mk IV SE ..... Would it even be remotely sufficient to drive the LCD-2s?
   
  Any help would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## BebopMcJiggy

I am not really sure as I don't have a Little Dot Mk IV SE but from their website (I'm not clear if this is just the Mk IV or the SE or if there is a difference but)
   
   
  Power Output:
  500 mW @ 300/600 ohm
  300 mW @ 120 ohm
  100 mW @ 32 ohm
  That does not look like very good power output into 50 ohms to me :O it might work but maybe not.  
  In any event what I am getting at is maximum current output of the amp is something like .05A which is not really good for an ortho I don't think :O


----------



## jermng

Thanks! What kinda power output should I be looking for at the minimum?
   
  What's the best workhorse amp for the LCD-2s?
   
  I'm considering the following affordable amps - 
   
  1. Little Dot Mk V - 

 Power Output:
 187 mW @ 300 ohm
 250 mW @ 120 ohm
 500 mW @ 32 ohm

  2.Hifiman EF5
  Output signal strength: up to 15 Volts at 32 Ohm
   
  3. Hifiman EF2
  Output at 32 Ohm: 3 v, 320 mw
 Output at 150 Ohm: 6.2 v, 256
   
  These are the limited amps I know of. Would appreciate any suggestions for any amps that have a good price to performance ratio for the LCD-2s. 
   
  Thank you!


----------



## BebopMcJiggy

I mean the ef5 looks like it has by far the best current output of those 3... like not even remotely close if that is really 15v into 32 ohms.  I can't really say whether they are a good match or not though.  I'm not sure what is best on the price to performance ratio for the LCD-2's, I am using some home made amps at the moment so... fun times.


----------



## jermng

Thanks! I just read a little up and I think I'll be going for either the Audio-Gd C-2 SA or maybe the Little Dot Mk VII+ .... though I think the C-2 SA does have more power ....
   
  I might try to push it for the Woo WA6 ... but that'll depend on the coming budget.


----------



## SemiAudiophile

I think best performance/price would have to be going with a budget speaker amp, if you don't mind taking off the TRS plug. Although I have not heard any good headphone amps that matched well with the LCD-2, I feel like my $50 Gizmo is just as good as any headphone amp costing up to $600 or more. In no way, do I feel like it's a weak link or bottleneck. If anything I might upgrade my dac first before I save up to buy a expensive tube amp. Something like the $30 T-amp might even do it and upgrading the power supply like the one from Welborne Labs would make it even better. I just ordered a modified T-amp power supply kit for my Gizmo, so we'll see how much better it gets when I finish building it.


----------



## sokolov91

What kind of offerings are there for SET amps that are also transformer coupled?
   
  I know the Woo Audio 6 is one.


----------



## Frank I

The MAD amps are transformer coupled and my Taboo from Decware is transformer as is the mini torri both can have the headjacks installed but the Decware are SE pentode but Cary Exciter has an intergrated transformer SET but pricey. many options out there for transformer based amps.


----------



## Skylab

I'm unconvinced that triodes necessarily sound better than pentodes.  Two of my favorite tube amps are pentode-based.


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





skylab said:


> I'm unconvinced that triodes necessarily sound better than pentodes.  Two of my favorite tube amps are pentode-based.


 


  I agree with you but he specifically asked for SET and I even like push pull amps if done right.   I know decware has said that he believes the pentodes are just as musical.


----------



## Henerenry

My favourite tubes is the e34, it just such good "tone" to it...
   
  Has anyone tried using the lcd2 straight to speaker binding post? and what was their mileage?


----------



## InnerSpace

Quote: 





henerenry said:


> Has anyone tried using the lcd2 straight to speaker binding post? and what was their mileage?


 

 I'm trying that now - straight out of a Bryston B60.  I'm on record as an LCD-2 skeptic - don't totally love 'em - but I like them better this way, with power and headroom to spare.  (But then, I often prefer headphones driven that way.)  They're getting to the point where I might keep them hooked up as an interesting alternative to my other rigs, which might sound like damning with faint praise, but is actually a big step forward compared with how I felt initially.
   
  PS I agree with the two previous posts about pentodes.  Great tubes, and also great golden-age talent in circuits designed around them.


----------



## sokolov91

Quote: 





skylab said:


> I'm unconvinced that triodes necessarily sound better than pentodes.  Two of my favorite tube amps are pentode-based.


 


  Well I HAD read that SET had some magic... but then everything has some magic to someone.
   
  Basically I just want to try a tube amp that will work with all my headphones, without breaking the bank. Will your new Decaware work with say your D7000 and E8? How does it compare to the concerto for driving the LCD-2?
   
  Thanks!


  Quote: 





frank i said:


> The MAD amps are transformer coupled and my Taboo from Decware is transformer as is the mini torri both can have the headjacks installed but the Decware are SE pentode but Cary Exciter has an intergrated transformer SET but pricey. many options out there for transformer based amps.


 


  Thanks for the help Frank.
  You will have to let me know how that new Taboo is with your LCD-2.  I just can't afford an amp that doesn't play nice with all of my headphones.
   
  The MAD look like nice designs, but pretty ugly imo.
   
  EDIT: Are there any LD or DV/LF designs that meet these requirements?


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





sokolov91 said:


> Well I HAD read that SET had some magic... but then everything has some magic to someone.
> 
> Basically I just want to try a tube amp that will work with all my headphones, without breaking the bank. Will your new Decaware work with say your D7000 and E8? How does it compare to the concerto for driving the LCD-2?
> 
> Thanks!


 
   
  Nope.The Mini-Torii is only good with low impedance AND low sensitivity headphones (like the LCD-2 and HE-5/6).  It's not an all-arounder.
   
  I do have a tube amp that is a terrific all-arounder: the Leben CS300X.  Aside from that, the closest tube amp I have to an all-arounder is indeed the WA6.  The WA2 is almost that - it's great with everything except ultra-low impedance dynamic headphones like the Denons.


----------



## sokolov91

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks!
   
  Now I guess I will have to see if the SE edition is worth it and what my bank balance is. Probably won't get it till the new year though... I am more than content with my current set up, but I would very much like to try a tube amp in my own home with my gear and music.


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





sokolov91 said:


> You will have to let me know how that new Taboo is with your LCD-2.  I just can't afford an amp that doesn't play nice with all of my headphones.
> 
> The MAD look like nice designs, but pretty ugly imo.
> 
> EDIT: Are there any LD or DV/LF designs that meet these requirements?


 

 I consider the look of the MAD amps retro, like Grados and really think they look quite nice...not to mention, they sound really good. Very good all rounder with my T1s, HD800s, Ed.8LE, LCD-2, and NOTHING has come close with my RS1i.
   
  I much prefer the retro look of MAD or Decware over the industrial Woo amps. But as they say: chacun a son gout.


----------



## sokolov91

Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Did I ever answer your response to my PM? I just remembered it. If not, how rude of me and thanks for writing it.
   
  Well as most things are, I am sure it is prettier "in the flesh"... so lets leave it at that 
   
  I wonder if out of ONT residents have to pay PST on the amps... HRM


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





sokolov91 said:


> I wonder if out of ONT residents have to pay PST on the amps... HRM


 

 Nope.


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





skylab said:


> I'm unconvinced that triodes necessarily sound better than pentodes.  Two of my favorite tube amps are pentode-based.


 


  Neither am I.  I preferred triode mated to my previous DAC...Ultralinear pentode seems better with my current DAC.  I find my preferences vary depending on how "magical" or analogue sounding my source is.  But my experience with tubes is very limited.


----------



## Junliang

What kind of amps do you guys think is better for LCD 2 ?

 Tube Amp or Solid State amp ?
   
  I am thinking of a WA6 vs Schiit Asgard.
   
  Opinions ?


----------



## nigeljames

I use mine with Woo6se and Roc and they both sound excellent. Perhaps the Woo sounds slightly better but I am still waiting on my balanced cable so only S/E into the Roc so far.
  As long as the amp is not overly warm/dark sounding you should be fine both ways.


----------



## Junliang

But yours is WA6 SE, which I believe greatly differs from WA6 =(


----------



## Junliang

Actually, what you guys think about using the maverick D1 Dac/Amp to drive the LCD 2 ?


----------



## regal

Quote: 





skylab said:


> I'm unconvinced that triodes necessarily sound better than pentodes.  Two of my favorite tube amps are pentode-based.


 
   
  Are you sure those pentodes aren't triode strapped?   That would make the amp triode based.


----------



## nigeljames

Quote: 





junliang said:


> But yours is WA6 SE, which I believe greatly differs from WA6 =(


 


  True but I was making the point that it does not really matter IMO what type of amp you need fro the LCD-2's.
  They can sound equally as good with either as long as the synergy is there,hence my statement to avoid overly warm/dark amps.


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





regal said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


Yes, I am sure.  The Decware Mini-Torii uses a 6V6 output tube wired as a single ended pentode with a tube regulated grid.  The Leben is actually push-pull pentode, not single ended.


----------



## SemiAudiophile

Quote: 





junliang said:


> What kind of amps do you guys think is better for LCD 2 ?
> 
> Tube Amp or Solid State amp ?
> 
> ...


 
   
  Asgard not a good match for LCD-2 IMO. WA6 should be sufficient from what I read. But, if you can push a little further, you should see if you can find a used WA6SE. My guess is that you'll get an extra darker background and wider, more precise soundstage with the SE.


----------



## jermng

semiaudiophile said:


> Asgard not a good match for LCD-2 IMO. WA6 should be sufficient from what I read. But, if you can push a little further, you should see if you can find a used WA6SE. My guess is that you'll get an extra darker background and wider, more precise soundstage with the SE.







Any particular reason you say the Asgard is not a good match? (power? Sound sig?)


----------



## SemiAudiophile

I don't think power was the issue, most likely the sound signature. Sounded thin and "boring" to me, didn't showcase the LCD-2's best qualities.


----------



## GreenLeo

Great, I've read through all the 86 pages.  However, I still cannot find the consensus.  Just wonder why it is so hard to find the best amp for a HP.  
   
  I'm told that the LCD-2 is 52 ohm across the 20-20k Hz spectrum and it seems that it should not be too difficult to drive something that uniform.  Anybody care to explain?  I'm curious.


----------



## sokolov91

Quote: 





greenleo said:


> Great, I've read through all the 86 pages.  However, I still cannot find the consensus.  Just wonder why it is so hard to find the best amp for a HP.
> 
> I'm told that the LCD-2 is 52 ohm across the 20-20k Hz spectrum and it seems that it should not be too difficult to drive something that uniform.  Anybody care to explain?  I'm curious.


 


  not hard to drive no, and flat impedance is great, but the sensitivity is fairly low, so you do need a fair bit of power.
   
  Keep the output impedance of your future amp as close to 0 as possible, and have a half-watt, preferably in class A and you are set. That is all there is really...
   
  That would be many a SS amp, and many transformer coupled amps. Take impressions with a grain of salt, because is a lot is placebo to a degree. The asgard should probably do the trick and won't break the bank... my phoenix is superb, my old concerto was very good... and well any of the transformer coupled amps mentioned should do the trick.
   
  It really is not that difficult, but people here are never happy - bare this in mind when reading.  The LCD-2 will sound great out of just about anything that fits their technical needs. Some better than others sure, but all good.


----------



## Skylab

There can never be consensus on this topic.  Some people won't consider tubes; others won't consider solid state.  Some can;t spend more than $500; for others, money is no object.  Even given just those two factors, before we ever discuss actual synergy with the LCD-2, you have no chance at consensus.
   
  For me, the ideal amp for the LCD-2 is the Decware Mini-Torii.  Lots of power, sounds great, not horribly expensive.  The downsides are that it really isn't good for using with other types of headphones, just other planars like the HE-6, and that while it's worth the money IMO, it's still $1,500.
   
  I actually prefer the Leben CS300X with the LCD-2, but at the current US price of $3,800, it's getting really hard to recommend, given how good the Decware is at $1,500.


----------



## BournePerfect

Any ideas on how the single-ended Roc-SA performs? On paper, it sounds great because it outputs 15W at 60ohms. I haven't seen any other sub $1000 amps that can even come close to that, from my limited experience. Also, how would the sound sig fare with the Audeze?
   
  -Daniel


----------



## sokolov91

Quote: 





bourneperfect said:


> Any ideas on how the single-ended Roc-SA performs? On paper, it sounds great because it outputs 15W at 60ohms. I haven't seen any other sub $1000 amps that can even come close to that, from my limited experience. Also, how would the sound sig fare with the Audeze?
> 
> -Daniel


 


  Would probably perform very well but just because it does 15 watts doesn't mean it will sound good -however it is very impressive. That being said, Kingwa would rather die than release something that is not more than worth the cash or that sounds less than stellar.
   
  But, it does not say on the site whether or not those values are actually in SE or balanced... I would assume the measurements are balanced output and not SE... but with wattage that high, its a non issue really. But you will most likely only be using half of the amp in SE. You should email Kingwa if you really want to know.
   
  If you get the roc sa though, you might as well just go full balanced... the LCD-2 are one of the easiest headphones to balance as you can simply swap cables, or reterminate the stock one.
   
  At any rate, if it sounds anything like the phoenix you will need to buy depends until you get used to the SQ. 
   
  EDIT: Sound sig would probably be fine... most amps measure flat from 20hz to 20khz... It has an output impedance of 1.5 ohms, so it is not like you are going to get roll off in the highs and lows like you most likely would with the CSP2 you have been talking about (although mids will probably be great). So it will compliment the LCD-2 by not altering its sound at all, and proving clean power, and lots of it.


----------



## BournePerfect

Sokolov:
   
       I'm referring to the Roc-SA which is the single-ended amp.  Thanks for your response, and I firmly believe that it will be a stellar product as well. Maybe I should just get some Roc (balanced) owner's opinions on that pairing, and go from there. Anyone care to chime in?
   
  -Daniel
   
  I'm not goining balanced because I just received the Ref 9 (single ended) last week. And will be using all of this with a future speaker rig. And that 15W @ 60 ohms is on the Roc-SA spec page.


----------



## BebopMcJiggy

Roc SA is still balanced...
   
*[size=x-large]Roc [/size][size=medium](Version SA)[/size]

 [size=small]Discrete Truly Balanced Headphone Amp/Preamp[/size]*

 [size=small]Input: XLR X1 / RCA X2
 Preamp Output:  XLR X1 / RCA X1
 HP amp output:   4-Pin XLR X1 / 6.5mm stereo plug X1[/size]
   
  straight from their info page...  also it's not quite 15W says....
   
*High Gain , 5VRMS input*
25 ohm: 9W 
 60 ohm: 9W
 100 ohm: 9W
 300 ohm: 3W
 600 ohm: 1.5W
*Low gain, 5VRMS input*
25 ohm: 4.5W 
 60 ohm: 4.5W
 100 ohm: 4.5W
 300 ohm: 1.5W
 600 ohm: 0.75W
   
  So half that for SE mode, I don't know about the ref9 but my dac puts out 5VRMS... but only balanced I think not SE so half that + weaker signal :O.  (Well I know it does 5VRMS on the balanced connection, I have measured, I just assumed that by default the SE must be a weaker signal as it is -10db output vs up to +22db.)  Still should be plenty power wise, this is not the HE-6.  I can't say anything about the synergy though.
   
  The C2-SA is actually 6w into 50 ohm single ended so that would actually be more powerful (not that I think you need it) for your SE only purposes.


----------



## BournePerfect

Thanks a lot Bebop. I don't know how I missed the 'balanced' title on the pricing page, but I don't think there was mention of it on the spec page. That's where it stated 15W into 60 ohm! Looks like you just you just saved me a few hundred bucks, so I might go for the C2-SA now. I wouldn't mind having an all AGD rig, anyway.
   
  -Daniel
   
  Bebop:  Check out it's spec page. In the "Design Features" section, paragraph 2 it says this:_The ROC SA applies high voltage power supply (DC +30V and -30V after the PSU), so it can offer large power output, like 15W at 60 ohms and 3500MW at 300 ohms, it can drive most headphone properly._
  This seems like a pretty big discrepancy compared to the specs on the bottom of the same page that you provided, unless I'm reading something wrong here. That's where I got my info from...how confusing.


----------



## sokolov91

Quote: 





bourneperfect said:


> Thanks a lot Bebop. I don't know how I missed the 'balanced' title on the pricing page, but I don't think there was mention of it on the spec page. That's where it stated 15W into 60 ohm! Looks like you just you just saved me a few hundred bucks, so I might go for the C2-SA now. I wouldn't mind having an all AGD rig, anyway.
> 
> -Daniel
> 
> ...


 

 You would have noticed if you looked at a photo of the amp... it has XLR  and ACSS input as well as a 4 pin out, and the internal layout suggests 4 different amps working in tandem... 
   
  So it turns out I was indeed right: It only uses half the amp in SE.
   
  FYI the amp still works at 100% if you use an SE source so long as the headphone cables are balanced. If you use an SE source and SE headphones, you are only using half... If you can afford the ROC SA, you should really get it. The LCD-2 deserve it, and it saves you amp hunting in the future if you decide to upgrade your source.
   
  Again, the LCD-2 are the EASIEST headphone to balance... nothing is permanent, and you have many options on how to do this.


----------



## BebopMcJiggy

Ahh yeah sorry I did not see the link to that page.  I see it is capable of more but when your ref9 puts out a 2.6V signal it should never put out near that much.


----------



## elwappo99

Anyone have any experience with the Little Dot MK VIII SE or Little Dot MK VI+ with the LCDs?


----------



## oqvist

Just connected my LCD-2 to my Yamaha RX-V663. It´s a bit of a party machine and surely enough the LCD-2 started dancing with it. Very fun sound. And big! Not just bass everything. But particularly impressive how under control the bass is still.  Warm and lush sound. As expected not 100 % pure black background but better then expected.
   
  Gotta love new toy syndrome


----------



## vrln

Quote: 





elwappo99 said:


> Anyone have any experience with the Little Dot MK VIII SE or Little Dot MK VI+ with the LCDs?


 


  Seconded. I´d also be interested in knowing how it pairs. Since both of those are OTL tube amps (more power with higher impedance) I wouldn´t expect that much though, but who knows...


----------



## TheWuss

i've been listening to both the LCD-2 and HE-6 with my Little Dot MKVI+.
  it is a very powerful amp that has absolutely no problem with those orthos.
   
  but, make no mistake, the LCD-2 is no harder to drive than most other audiophile headphones.
  the he-6, on the other hand, sits stubbornly just below the K1000...
   
  on low gain, you do have to use a lot of volume with the HE-6.  but, i imagine that high gain would be more than adequate.
  (the MKVI was made for the K1000, after all...)
   
  but...  i'm too lazy to open up the amp and switch the gain to high....   
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  i have not listened to the LCD-2 balanced.  i am waiting on my balanced cable from moon audio.
  single ended, however, it is very good.


----------



## Armaegis

I did a brief search but didn't find anything. Has anyone ever tried running the LCD-2 (or other orthos for that matter) with a Bottlehead S.E.X. amp?


----------



## SebastianL

Quote: 





oqvist said:


> Just connected my LCD-2 to my Yamaha RX-V663. It´s a bit of a party machine and surely enough the LCD-2 started dancing with it. Very fun sound. And big! Not just bass everything. But particularly impressive how under control the bass is still.  Warm and lush sound. As expected not 100 % pure black background but better then expected.
> 
> Gotta love new toy syndrome


 


  I've got a Yamaha RX-V640rds myself which sounds amazing w. speakers considering the price. Damping factor at 100, lot of power.
  Anybody tried to connect their headphones directly to the speaker output? Most decent amps have a damping factor that might go well with LCD-2. Mind the volume knob though.


----------



## burgunder

according to this post http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/493214/hifiman-he-6-planar-headphone/1200#post_7072070 the K1000 requires 4 times the power of the HE-6.
  Quote: 





thewuss said:


> i've been listening to both the LCD-2 and HE-6 with my Little Dot MKVI+.
> it is a very powerful amp that has absolutely no problem with those orthos.
> 
> but, make no mistake, the LCD-2 is no harder to drive than most other audiophile headphones.
> ...


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





burgunder said:


> according to this post http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/493214/hifiman-he-6-planar-headphone/1200#post_7072070 the K1000 requires 4 times the power of the HE-6.
> Quote:
> 
> 
> ...




   
   
  No offense but that post is just parroting specs, which never tell the whole story. Pyiel0 needs a HE-6 and TheWuss needs a K1000 for comparison, they should get together lol. Reality is probably somewhere in between.


----------



## oqvist

Quote: 





sebastianl said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


   Well that is what I did. However there is little difference compared to the headphone output so I suppose it´s pretty good. the difference is probably just the cables I suspect. I wish I had A-Bd them more on my receiver prior to dissecting the stock cable. I can´t say I am unbiased though. Because it´s awfully impractical having to switch between my speaker and headphone cable, so I really really want that to be the case. In the long run I wouldn´t want to live with this trafomator hum either.


----------



## 65dos

whether it can work without the amp?


----------



## Skylab

It requires an amp, in my opinion.


----------



## 65dos

but is it possible to listen to it without an amplifier?


----------



## Skylab

It might be, depending on what you are connecting it to, but it will not be ideal out of something like a laptop sound card.


----------



## 65dos

can compare its sound with no amp with other headphones?


----------



## palchiu

A Porsche can be fun with it's six cylinders, why you just use one?


----------



## RedBull

LCD-2 without proper amping can sound light but still very smooth and 'silky' but with more power it is more dynamic, warmth, punchy, while still retain it's silky smoothness.  Due to the no harshness nature of its sound, I can still enjoy LCD-2 without the most powerful amp as it's easy to listen to 2's signature.


----------



## K3cT

You can use it without a proper amplifier of course but then you will probably experience drawbacks such as "congestion in complex passages" like one certain member here.


----------



## RedBull

^ Smart


----------



## sokolov91

Just some quick input:
   
  The audio GD phoenix is a godsend with the LCD-2. Holy crap do these two make beautiful music together. Very much a concerto with bigger balls and more "soul" if you will. Must be that full class A and no negative feedback. Fully balanced signal path must help too i'd imagine. Seems to have a fairly bigger soundstage on the phoenix in XLR vs the MAD. Channel separation is incredible too (duhh I guess haha).
   
  I hate saying this, but for best results the phoenix really does like to be warmed up which I didn't believe but it really does seem to sound better when its been warmed up. Can't blind test this at all though as I would need two phoenixs haha.
   
   
  The MAD ear+ HD also works great with the LCD-2. Nice and creamy with what I assume is "tube romance". Only the slightest of  roll off and vocals are exceedingly inviting.
   
  Overall the phoenix  has better SQ to my hears and I prefer it... but I am going to really hate giving Simon his MAD ear amp back haha! Really something magical about it.
   
  If you want overall linearity and "control" go for the phoenix
   
  If you want vocals that just "melt in your ears" go for the MAD. It also excels with classic rock too FWIW.


----------



## vrln

Well with all due honesty I personally agree with Mr. Green on the LCD-2 sound signature. That doesn´t mean they aren´t good headphones though, but they do have flaws IF delicacy/sense of air and soundstage are very important for you. The soundstage is just too small to properly convey complex passages if you ask me. I can easily imagine it´s a dream headphone for many, and I will second that the Phoenix drives it very well. Around 3 watts per channel in fact, which should be enough for easy to drive orthos. The LCD-2 are more of a steamroller headphone. If HD 800 wouldn´t have the "PAIN DIRECTLY DELIVERED IN YOUR EARS!" treble spike, I would easily chose them over the LCD-2 on the Phoenix. They are also very well driven by it. Actually now that I´ve tried the HD 800 on other amps as well (Black Cube Linear and Benchmark DAC-1), the spike is actually less hard on the Phoenix. It´s still too much for me though.
   
  Out of those headphones, I´d still easily chose the LCD-2.


----------



## 65dos

Thanks for all. 
  i buy lcd2, without using the amp


----------



## SemiAudiophile

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *sokolov91* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> The MAD ear+ HD also works great with the LCD-2. Nice and creamy with what I assume is "tube romance". Only the slightest of  roll off and vocals are exceedingly inviting.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Maybe the LCD-2 works better with the newer MAD Ear+ HD's. I remember them being quite magical and inviting too on my purist, but there was something about the mids that sounded strained on certain tracks.


----------



## K3cT

Quote: 





vrln said:


> Well with all due honesty I personally agree with Mr. Green on the LCD-2 sound signature. That doesn´t mean they aren´t good headphones though, but they do have flaws IF delicacy/sense of air and soundstage are very important for you. The soundstage is just too small to properly convey complex passages if you ask me. I can easily imagine it´s a dream headphone for many, and I will second that the Phoenix drives it very well. Around 3 watts per channel in fact, which should be enough for easy to drive orthos. The LCD-2 are more of a steamroller headphone. If HD 800 wouldn´t have the "PAIN DIRECTLY DELIVERED IN YOUR EARS!" treble spike, I would easily chose them over the LCD-2 on the Phoenix. They are also very well driven by it. Actually now that I´ve tried the HD 800 on other amps as well (Black Cube Linear and Benchmark DAC-1), the spike is actually less hard on the Phoenix. It´s still too much for me though.
> 
> Out of those headphones, I´d still easily chose the LCD-2.


 

 If there is one thing that the LCD2 does right, it is its ability to resolve complex passages given the context of its small-ish soundstage. I do think that resolving complex passages have nothing to do with soundstage size though I agree with him that the LCD2 could do with more sparkle and air. 
   
  IIRC, orthodynamics require an amplifier that has a very low output impedance and provides lots of current to do well. I'm not sure how good the Phoenix is in this regards.


----------



## disastermouse

My plan is to drop $449 on a Lyr and be done with it.  It should power anything.
   
  Of course, if you want to move up to balanced in/out - you'll have to get your Schiit elsewhere (I'm sure a balanced version will be forthcoming at some point....er...mostly sure...)


----------



## 65dos

please recommend amp for 300$


----------



## sokolov91

Quote: 





65dos said:


> please recommend amp for 300$


 


  The asgard is a good bet from what I've read. Audio GD C-2 or C-2SA are probably good choices too.


----------



## sokolov91

Quote: 





disastermouse said:


> My plan is to drop $449 on a Lyr and be done with it.  It should power anything.
> 
> Of course, if you want to move up to balanced in/out - you'll have to get your Schiit elsewhere (I'm sure a balanced version will be forthcoming at some point....er...mostly sure...)


 


  haven't heard their stuff (supposedly great) but I wouldn't buy it just because it is 6 watts per channel... hell the LCD-2 give you 91 dB at 1mW why on earth would you need 6 watts?
   
  Not saying it won sound great, but buying an amp on watts alone is like buy a car for its pricetag.


----------



## 65dos

thanks for you! i buy asgard


----------



## Ezekiel33

do you guys think the Audio-Gd Fun can properly drive the Audeze LCD-2?
  thks!


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





			
				SemiAudiophile said:
			
		

> /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

  
  Quote: 





sokolov91 said:


> Just some quick input:
> 
> The audio GD phoenix is a godsend with the LCD-2. Holy crap do these two make beautiful music together. Very much a concerto with bigger balls and more "soul" if you will. Must be that full class A and no negative feedback. Fully balanced signal path must help too i'd imagine. Seems to have a fairly bigger soundstage on the phoenix in XLR vs the MAD. Channel separation is incredible too (duhh I guess haha).
> 
> ...


 


  Hi Alex:

 Just wondering what tube are you running in SP's MAD amp? For a bit more juice, I highly recommend the 12AX7 (NOS Sylvania or new issue Genelax Gold) over the 5751s that typically come with the amp for my more "depending headphones". That being said, I still prefer my LCD-2s with my Concerto. We shall see how they fair with my incoming Woo Audio WA2. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  I still prefer the MAD with my HD800s and T1s though.


----------



## oqvist

LCD-2 do impress more on my solid state amps then my tube as well. I would like to try the Schiit Lyr since it´s just to impractible for me to use my speaker amp. Hybrid so maybe it has more detail then the average tube amp while being more forgiving on poor recordings then the average solid state amp? From what I heard so far little indication that the LCD-2 really benefit much from a speaker amp but I guess it let you sleep well at night knowing it´s massively overpowered


----------



## RedBull

Quote:


65dos said:


> Thanks for all.
> i buy lcd2, without using the amp


 

 You will still be happy with it
    
  Quote:


disastermouse said:


> My plan is to drop $449 on a Lyr and be done with it.  It should power anything.
> 
> Of course, if you want to move up to balanced in/out - you'll have to get your Schiit elsewhere (I'm sure a balanced version will be forthcoming at some point....er...mostly sure...)


 

 We will never be 'done' in this 'business' the search continues ......... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Quote: 





65dos said:


> please recommend amp for 300$


 

 Now you want an amp  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Quote: 





65dos said:


> thanks for you! i buy asgard


 

 Man, you're a very efficient man, I like your style


----------



## RedBull

Did anyone compare Lehmann BCL vs Concerto for LCD-2 care to give impression?


----------



## vilasn

I think it will, I have Compass it drives LCD-2s very well. FUN replaced Compass, and it is supposedly better, that's my guess anyway.
   
  Good luck.
  
  Quote: 





ezekiel33 said:


> do you guys think the Audio-Gd Fun can properly drive the Audeze LCD-2?
> thks!


----------



## Ezekiel33

pretty nice, thks a lot for the answer


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





sokolov91 said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


  Supposedly the Lyr has a tapered pot and adaptable power, and will sound great even with low-impedance efficient cans like Grados. It also stays in class A until it really needs the maximum power.


----------



## BebopMcJiggy

Quote: 





grokit said:


> Supposedly the Lyr has a tapered pot and adaptable power, and will sound great even with low-impedance efficient cans like Grados. It also stays in class A until it really needs the maximum power.


 


  Does this not pretty much describe how class A works in general?  It wastes tons of power until the load is so demanding that it is pushed out of class A? :O  Not that there is anything wrong with that...


----------



## grokit

Check out the Lyr thread, the "Dynamically Adaptive Output Stage" supposedly "works by sensing the current flowing through the output stage...the primary benefits are essentially single-ended Class-A operation for high-impedance headphones (300-600 ohms), moving seamlessly to push-pull Class A and finally into Class AB as current needs increase...giving the user the ability to drive virtually any headphone." Pretty cool for $449.
   
  http://schiit.com/schiit-faq/about-lyr/


----------



## RedBull

Wow, autoswitch to Class AB when necessary, impressive, this is new to me.  Thanks for the info.


----------



## dariusf

Quote: 





ctemkin said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I have not heard the LCD-2 with Apache but I do own the RSA Raptor. Only had time to spend about an hour for a very initial impressions of my new LCD-2. Tried it with several music genres and my very initial impressions were quite amazing. Apache with its much better power section and the other components I would imagine would be quite satisfactory with them.


----------



## disastermouse

Quote: 





sokolov91 said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I'm going off the reputation of their previous products - and although I'd really like to tell myself that the LCD-2 will be a stop-point for me - come on, this be Head-Fi.


----------



## zilch0md

I realize this may seem an odd question for those who own a lot of hardware with which to make comparisons, but I would very much appreciate any comparisons that could be offered between the Meier Stepdance -> LCD-2 combo and some of the more affordable desktop amps-of-choice for the LCD-2 (Meier Concierto, Woo WA6, etc.).
   
  The Stepdance is my only amp, portable or otherwise, and although I know it to be held in very high regard as a _portable_ amp, my lack of exposure to any other amps leaves me wondering what I will be missing if I stick with using the Stepdance -> LCD-2 combo for home use, instead of getting something like the Concierto or the WA6. 
   
  So, if anyone has had a chance to hear the LCD-2 on both a Stepdance and a Concierto, for example, please tell me what the Stepdance lacks.
   
  Thank you!
   
  Mike


----------



## BebopMcJiggy

Quote: 





grokit said:


> Check out the Lyr thread, the "Dynamically Adaptive Output Stage" supposedly "works by sensing the current flowing through the output stage...the primary benefits are essentially single-ended Class-A operation for high-impedance headphones (300-600 ohms), moving seamlessly to push-pull Class A and finally into Class AB as current needs increase...giving the user the ability to drive virtually any headphone." Pretty cool for $449.
> 
> http://schiit.com/schiit-faq/about-lyr/


 

 Okay well that is slightly different than what you had described before, remaining in class A until the load pushes it into class AB is generally just how class A works, I believe.  But they are saying they use the tubes in single ended class A operation, which switches to push pull class A when the load is more demanding (of current).  In order to be more efficient... as class A is extremely inefficient by nature. (I am assuming it uses less power running the tubes in single ended class A vs push-pull, as implied by the next sentence which you did not copy?)
   
  But the switching to class AB as the load becomes more demanding is just how class A works.  The feature is in the switching seamlessly to push-pull with the tubes, not in the falling back into AB.  For example my balanced B22 will be in class AB if you play an he-6 at > 115db or so, based on their provided sensitivity and my quiescent current setting.  There is nothing that needs to be done, once the peak load current is > 2 * quiescent current, it is operating in class AB ;p.  It's kind of simple... class A == on 100% of the time, 100% > AB > 50%, B == 50%, 50% > C, D == switching.  So just by the load demanding enough current, it is automatically demoted to class AB.


----------



## grokit

It's not a straight tube amp, it's a hybrid FWIW.


----------



## SP Wild

According to the Schiit guys, it will only jump into AB after 500 mw so its Class A for a very loud volume.  I am thinking of my reference the Lehmann BCL which maxes out at 400mw and I'm not sure this is even class A.  So on paper, the Schiit is a winner.


----------



## ctemkin

Quote: 





dariusf said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 It feels a little silly, but I am now in a position to respond to my own post (which dates back months).  The LCD-2 is excellent with the Apache.  I have not had the pleasure of hearing the headphones with other amps, but comparing the results to my mental image of what live acoustic music sounds like, the combination is wonderful.  I am running them balanced, which seemed to me to make a small but discernible improvement in soundstage and treble.


----------



## kwkarth

It has been my continued experience that the final sound quality of an LCD-2 based reproduction chain is only as strong (good) as the weakest link... therefore, the quality of sound I was enjoying from the LCD-2 has jumped immensely since I improved my source.  My current favorite chain links are currently a tweaked Music Hall 25.2 DAC using a GE smoked glass 6922, driving the Schiit Asgard amp.  Very impressive results!


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> It has been my continued experience that the final sound quality of an LCD-2 based reproduction chain is only as strong (good) as the weakest link... therefore, the quality of sound I was enjoying from the LCD-2 has jumped immensely since I improved my source.  My current favorite chain links are currently a tweaked Music Hall 25.2 DAC using a GE smoked glass 6922, driving the Schiit Asgard amp.  Very impressive results!


 

 Did you do anything else to the Music hall 25.2 besides rolling the output tube?


----------



## Duckman

Had the pleasure of hearing the LCD2 paired with a Burson HA160 via my Metric Halo ULN2 at a meet yesterday.
   
  Had the 160 side by side with my Leben CS300XS and was very impressed with it - amid the noise and other detrimental conditions of a meet.
   
  The Burson, it seems to me, pretty much matches the detail of the Leben. It also feels a bit more energetic and punchy, with more treble energy. The Leben, on the other hand, has a smoother, more relaxed presentation.
   
  It was only a short listen in noisy conditions and with a limited number of music tracks but, IMO, it was an excellent pairing.
   
  Burson owners should certainly not feel any Leben envy 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





duckman said:


> Had the pleasure of hearing the LCD2 paired with a Burson HA160 via my Metric Halo ULN2 at a meet yesterday.
> 
> Had the 160 side by side with my Leben CS300XS and was very impressed with the short time I heard it - amid the noise and other detrimental conditions of a meet.
> 
> ...


 

 How was the Burson in relation to your B22? Just curious.


----------



## Duckman

Too difficult to tell, MH, since I've never had them side by side.
   
  Re Leben v B22: I felt they were of similar quality, with the Leben having a slightly more 'organic' and realistic feel to it. Only slightly, mind you.
   
  However the Leben's imaging (so far - with 60 or so hours on it), doesn't quite match the stability of the B22. Not a big deal if you're not swapping between them.
   
  The HA160 seemed to have a bit more treble energy, which I welcomed. Though whether that would be good in the long term, I don't know.
   
  I couldn't really compare the sounds of specific instruments to see which timbre I preferred. However, my immediate and general impression was that the Burson was an excellent match for the LCD2.
   
  I'm thinking of picking up a second-hand one for a closer comparison.


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





duckman said:


> Too difficult to tell, MH, since I've never had them side by side.
> 
> Re Leben v B22: I felt they were of similar quality, with the Leben having a slightly more 'organic' and realistic feel to it. Only slightly, mind you.
> 
> ...


 

 Cool..thanks. Great comments! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Have you heard the Concerto?


----------



## sokolov91

Well its nothing special but I would just like to add I am listening to the "Facelift" CD by Alice in Chains via MAD ear + HD and LCD-2 and was caught half walking, half awkward dancing around my room by my mom.
   
  Sounding too goo to sit down is a good sign in my books though!


----------



## Duckman

No worries...
   
  Yeah, a local head-fi friend had the Concerto/LCD2. Sounded nice to me, but I did no critical listening or comparisons.

   
  Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> Cool..thanks. Great comments!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Asr

The "best" amps that I've personally heard with the LCD-2 would be, in order: B22 (single-ended), HeadAmp GS-X (balanced), and the Avenson Audio Headphone Amp. I thought the pairing with the Schiit Asgard was less than optimal and would recommend avoiding that amp, at least for the LCD-2.


----------



## RedBull

I would wonder which one will be better, LCD-2 with Concerto or with Lehmann BCL?  anyone has listen to both with '2?


----------



## dariusf

Quote: 





ctemkin said:


> It feels a little silly, but I am now in a position to respond to my own post (which dates back months).  The LCD-2 is excellent with the Apache.  I have not had the pleasure of hearing the headphones with other amps, but comparing the results to my mental image of what live acoustic music sounds like, the combination is wonderful.  I am running them balanced, which seemed to me to make a small but discernible improvement in soundstage and treble.


 

 Very nice, I'm solidly converted to tubes so most solid state amps will just not do justice for me. Apache is far more overbuild then the Raptor but then the Raptor in itself is a very well build and capable amp. I need to find some time to do much more listening and move in to more analytical listening comparing to my Baby O (under powered now with HEV70 plus its a very deferent headphone) and my HP2/RS1. On the initial testes the RS1 already was greatly outguned by the LCD-2 and I guess will be on the selling forum soon  I'm also planning to tube roll the Raptor to find good tube matches for the LCD-2 and deferent music genre. I like to switch my tubes depending on what I'm listening to even between albums of the same genre. What tube setup are you using? and what balanced source?
   
  Edit: looking at your profile I guess you run the Rega Saturn for the balanced source. I have never heard that CD player only auditioned the Jupiter years back.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote from Grokit:


> Did you do anything else to the Music hall 25.2 besides rolling the output tube?


 
   
   
  Yup.  Simple things like pro-golding all internal connections and cables, etc.  I also was considering upgrading the clock until I changed/upgraded the USB cable I'm using from my laptop.  With the right cable, the sound quality jumps up by leaps and bounds.  Jitter reduction employed by this DAC is ok, but not bulletproof.  The more you do to remove jitter from  upstream, the better it will sound.   As with anything, YMMV, but I was floored by the difference a good digital interconnect made, when I didn't expect to hear any audible difference at all.  Needless to say, IC quality in the analog domain makes an obvious difference as well.
   
  Regarding the Asgard...  I find it to be a completely transparent and resolving amp.  If what you're hearing from the Asgard sounds substandard in any way, look upstream, as the problem is not likely with the Asgard.  I think the only problem anyone might have with the Asgard is a lack of prestige.  It's too simple to operate, and too cost effective to procure.  It does not lack one whit in capability.  That's my $0.02.  I've spent many hours listening to many, many fine amps crafted from pure unobtanium, and the lowly Asgard easily holds its own with most of them.  I'm not saying it can't or hasn't been bettered, but there's a great gulf betwixt 'n' between good, better, and best.  The Asgard, to my ears, is clearly and firmly in the "better" category at any price.


----------



## ctemkin

Quote: 





dariusf said:


> Edit: looking at your profile I guess you run the Rega Saturn for the balanced source. I have never heard that CD player only auditioned the Jupiter years back.


 

 Actually, it is the Marantz which has balanced output.  I haven't been using the Rega lately; I should probably figure what to do with it.


----------



## dminches

I have been listening to my LCD-2s with my Modwright LS-100 pre-amp.  Unlike many pre-amps, the headphone section has been well designed and is not just a simple op-amp.  The quality is on par with the Leben, maybe even better.  I really can't do a side by side comparison but the combination is very nice.


----------



## Frank I

I can say my LCD2 never sounded better than it does with the Decware amps. The Taboo pumps 6W of SE power into them and the headroom is really whatever the recording wants to deliver. Very tight and controlled bass. Very happy with the Decware preamp and amp combo. Tubes are my favorite and for solid state the Concerto was nice but for the organic you are there sound the Taboo delivers big time.


----------



## palchiu

How about connect LCD-2 to Wadia's 151 PowerDAC? It's just need a CD/DVD or a PC source.
   
  It's a compact size DAC/Amp(50W@4ohm Class-D) combo, it's upsampling everything to 24bit/384kHz with digital volume and remote just for $1,195.
   
  And it's "Wadia"!
   
  I'm very interesting LCD-2/Wadia PowerDAC combo.


----------



## DeadEars

Quote: 





dminches said:


> I have been listening to my LCD-2s with my Modwright LS-100 pre-amp.  Unlike many pre-amps, the headphone section has been well designed and is not just a simple op-amp.  The quality is on par with the Leben, maybe even better.  I really can't do a side by side comparison but the combination is very nice.


 

 I talked to Dan Wright when he was doing the design work for the Modwright LS-100 pre.  He went to a west-coast Head-Fi meet and was highly impressed, and a little sobered by the high standards of some of the competition.  He put some serious effort into making the LS-100 a headphone contender.  Congrats on a wonderful piece! 
   
  I am a long-time Modwright customer and a great admirer of his work.  My Modwright Transporter has been revelatory as a DAC as well as a source.  Have you posted your LS-100 listening impressions anywhere?  I'd be interested in hearing more about how it compares to other amps in your experience.
   
  Tx!
   
  Frank


----------



## dariusf

Quote: 





palchiu said:


> How about connect LCD-2 to Wadia's 151 PowerDAC? It's just need a CD/DVD or a PC source.
> 
> It's a compact size DAC/Amp(50W@4ohm Class-D) combo, it's upsampling everything to 24bit/384kHz with digital volume and remote just for $1,195.
> 
> ...


 
   
  I'm still not sold on class-D, every digital amp I have heard had issues with low end aside from same Meridians. Maybe its good maybe not, at that price its your call to find out  I only heard a transport/DAC combo from Wadia years back but it was ~$20k combo.


----------



## dariusf

I would go with tubes over class-d 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 but thats just me


----------



## eertelppa

any love for the bijou?


----------



## RedBull

dariusf, a little side discussion apart from amping lcd-2.  Can give me a little impression your best amped LCD-2 with your Baby O? 
  I heard it about a year back and I was impressed with the sound VERY much, more than the Staxes.
  This baby is quite hard to get eh?
   
  Thanks.


----------



## dariusf

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *DeadEars* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> I am a long-time Modwright customer and a great admirer of his work.  My Modwright Transporter has been revelatory as a DAC as well as a source.  Have you posted your LS-100 listening impressions anywhere?  I'd be interested in hearing more about how it compares to other amps in your experience.
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  I'm also a very satisfied Modwright customer. Dan modded by Sony 999ES with the tube output stage, external PS, clock and caps upgrades etc. The player is at a whole other level and competes very well with much higher priced players. I have been looking at the Transporter from the time it came out and recently the Modwright modded version. Very good reviews and I love the idea. I have an old Audiotron network player that I guess was the first commercial offering years back although it vastly under build and sonically inferior. I mostly store my CDs as EAC/Lame 320kbps, CBR on my home media/file server. Have you compared the Modwright Transporter to other higher end players?


----------



## DeadEars

Quote: 





dariusf said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Yes, fairly extensively.  The following might represent too much information (TMI).  I originally bought a Transporter on a 30-day trial, and while I liked it in many ways, I found it a bit too dry and analytical for my taste, so I returned it.  Then two months later, Dan came out with his mods, so I bought another one through him, and had him mod it.  For the past 2 years, I've really enjoyed it greatly, and listen to it a few hours every day (when I'm not listening to LP's). 
   
  I particularly like its performance with Hi-Rez downloads (HD-Tracks, etc.), which I often find competitive in SQ with my analog rig (VPI/Dynavector XX-2/Rhea).  I pretty quickly abandoned lower bit-rate files after hearing the difference so clearly.  Most of my 14,000 tracks are in FLAC.  The LCD-2's spoiled me for 320kbps recordings.  I had several hundred in Ogg Vorbis that I quickly re-ripped to lossless.
   
  I still own a well-regarded Musical Fidelity A5 CD player that I liked a lot.  But in some ways it is clearly inferior to the MW Transporter.  The Transporter shares the rich A5 midrange textures, but has better/deeper bass.  I've permanently "loaned" the A5 to my sister.  I also compared it to my dad's McIntosh MCD201, and found the Modwright Transporter more lively and detailed.  For several weeks I borrowed an Esoteric transport/DAC combo.  Um, sorry, two years later I don't remember the Esoteric model #'s.  Anyway, after a while, I spent most of the time listening to the Esoteric transport through the DAC in the Transporter, as I preferred it to the Esoteric DAC.  In general, I think performance off a hard drive is as good as top transports these days.  I previously owned a Wadia 861 which I gave up for the MF A5.   Musical memory sucks, but I would expect that the MW Transporter would outperform the Wadia in my system.   Finally, for a long time, I lusted after an Audio Aero Capitale II, and after multiple listening sessions (I didn't buy one) I think the MW Transporter gives it a run for the money, at a far lower price point.  I felt the Audio Aero offered a bit more "palpability" and presence, but rolled off the highs a bit more.  I can't talk to soundstage/stereo imaging, since I have deficient hearing in one ear (hence "DeadEars").
   
  The Transporter responds well to tube-rolling, which might be a blessing or a curse.  On the Modwright forum there's an extensive thread on audible consequences of different rectifier tubes and driver tubes, to which I contributed slightly.  Currently, I'm running Mullard GZ-32 rectifier and RCA clear-top 6CG7's.  I've also played around with running various 6SN7's via an adapter, and liked some Tung-Sol round plates quite well.
   
  As a headphone source, the MW Transporter runs either balanced or single-ended, so you have a good pick of appropriate amplifiers.  These days I'm running single ended for my headphone listening (to a MAD amp) and balanced for my Atma-Sphere/Magnaplanar listening.
   
  Hope this is helpful!
   
  Frank


----------



## rgs9200m

Those RCA 6CG7 tubes are great. They made my Van Alstine Ultra EC+ amp sound much much better, like going from solid state to tubes. They have a nice tube mellowness and a real sense of ease,
  and still preserving slam and firm bass lines.


----------



## dminches

Quote: 





deadears said:


> I talked to Dan Wright when he was doing the design work for the Modwright LS-100 pre.  He went to a west-coast Head-Fi meet and was highly impressed, and a little sobered by the high standards of some of the competition.  He put some serious effort into making the LS-100 a headphone contender.  Congrats on a wonderful piece!
> 
> I am a long-time Modwright customer and a great admirer of his work.  My Modwright Transporter has been revelatory as a DAC as well as a source.  Have you posted your LS-100 listening impressions anywhere?  I'd be interested in hearing more about how it compares to other amps in your experience.
> 
> ...


 

 I have posted a bunch of things over at the Modwright circle on audiocircle.com.  The best I have heard the LCD-2s is the combination of the MWTP>LS-100>LCD-2s.  I haven't tried using the MWTP with the Leben so I can't make that comparison.


----------



## DeadEars

Quote: 





rgs9200m said:


> Those RCA 6CG7 tubes are great. They made my Van Alstine Ultra EC+ amp sound much much better, like going from solid state to tubes. They have a nice tube mellowness and a real sense of ease,
> and still preserving slam and firm bass lines.


 
  I'm not surprised.  The 6CG7 is really just a 9-pin version of the octal 6SN7, a nice linear tube, and one of the classic audio tubes.  And RCA didn't make many bad-sounding tubes in the height of the tube era.
   
  I'm surprised 6CG7's don't find their way into more gear.  For instance, with some slight re-wiring they can often be substituted for 12AU7's, which I've never thought was such a great audio tube.  I did this on the input tube for a Pilot SA-260 amp and was very pleased with the improvement.


----------



## Frihed89

Is there a reasonably high quality, "full-size" amp, tube, SS or hybrid that can't drive these headphones, well?  I have both a tube OTL amp and a SS amp with an opamp output stage and these amps have no problems driving the LDC-2s, despite what I have read here about the need for transformer output stages on tube amps and discrete output stages on ss amps to do justice to these cans.


----------



## Equus

Quote: 





deadears said:


> I'm not surprised.  The 6CG7 is really just a 9-pin version of the octal 6SN7, a nice linear tube, and one of the classic audio tubes.  And RCA didn't make many bad-sounding tubes in the height of the tube era.
> 
> I'm surprised 6CG7's don't find their way into more gear.  For instance, with some slight re-wiring they can often be substituted for 12AU7's, which I've never thought was such a great audio tube.  I did this on the input tube for a Pilot SA-260 amp and was very pleased with the improvement.


 

 I almost exclusively use RCA 6CG7 clear-tops in my Stacker.  Other tubes might do certain things better, but in my amp I haven't found something that can beat the whole package yet.

  
  Quote: 





frihed89 said:


> Is there a reasonably high quality, "full-size" amp, tube, SS or hybrid that can't drive these headphones, well?  I have both a tube OTL amp and a SS amp with an opamp output stage and these amps have no problems driving the LDC-2s, despite what I have read here about the need for transformer output stages on tube amps and discrete output stages on ss amps to do justice to these cans.


 

 Depends on taste and the amp, I think.  I haven't heard an OTL amp that worked well with the LCD-2, but then again, I haven't heard them on that many OTL amps.  I have heard amps that I was not so keen about while using the LCD-2, but I think I personally might not like those amps with any headphones.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





frihed89 said:


> Is there a reasonably high quality, "full-size" amp, tube, SS or hybrid that can't drive these headphones, well?  I have both a tube OTL amp and a SS amp with an opamp output stage and these amps have no problems driving the LDC-2s, despite what I have read here about the need for transformer output stages on tube amps and discrete output stages on ss amps to do justice to these cans.


 


  There's driving and there's DRIVING.  Heck, even an iPod will drive them.  Just enjoy the music!


----------



## SP Wild

I finally got myself a remote controlled headamp!  The Phoenix punches about 2.7 watts into the LCD2 per channel RMS (this info was given to me via email with Audio GD) in pure class A.  Whilst the Lehmann Black Cubes lean, smooth and precise signature matches really well with the LCD2s, when cranked to moderate and enthusiastic volume levels it starts to fall significantly behind the more powerful amp.  However at lower to moderate volume levels there is little to complain about.  Not bad for 500 milliwatts.
   
  The easiest test is to imagine how loud a live performance should sound and dial an estimation of that volume on the LCD2s...have one headamp with lots of power and another more typical in power and you can immediately hear which one sounds more like the live performance.  As mentioned though, the LCD2s sound quite good out of almost anything, they're not hard to amp well, they're difficult to amp optimally, which is two completely different things.


----------



## AustinHorn

I just took the leap & got my LCD-2s on Friday. I now have about 50 hours on them & have tried them with a variety of the ss & tube amps I own.  I don't have a balanced cable for them yet so I can't test them (like I'd like) on my Phoenix, but single ended I thought they were just OK.  However, I have to say while I love all of my headphones in balanced mode on my Phoenix, it has never been my favorite ss amp single ended! I have a Woo6 maxxed & feel that is a really good match. But right now, my favorite gear for it is my new DACmini.  It makes for a wonderful combo with plenty of headroom & now treble roll-off.  I also used it with my Nuforce HDP & that was a great ss match too though I don't like the tone of that amp quite as much as the sound of the DACmini.
   
  Anyway, I find the LCD-2 & the CEntrance DACmini to be an excellent SE match.  Tone wise I found it to be very much like the sound I got from a hybrid amp when used with an HD650, only with a tighter more extended bottom & a very controlled & better extended treble. Still on almost all my amps, I found the LCD-2 to be a really special headphone.  I haven't read all this thread so I don't yet know what the typical break-in is on this headphone, but already I'm liking as well as my beloved HE6LE, if not better.  I can't wait to get a nice SAA balanced cable & see how that sounds on my Phoenix.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote: 





austinhorn said:


> I just took the leap & got my LCD-2s on Friday. I now have about 50 hours on them & have tried them with a variety of the ss & tube amps I own.  I don't have a balanced cable for them yet so I can't test them (like I'd like) on my Phoenix, but single ended I thought they were just OK.  However, I have to say while I love all of my headphones in balanced mode on my Phoenix, it has never been my favorite ss amp single ended! I have a Woo6 maxxed & feel that is a really good match. But right now, my favorite gear for it is my new DACmini.  It makes for a wonderful combo with plenty of headroom & now treble roll-off.  I also used it with my Nuforce HDP & that was a great ss match too though I don't like the tone of that amp quite as much as the sound of the DACmini.
> 
> Anyway, I find the LCD-2 & the CEntrance DACmini to be an excellent SE match.  Tone wise I found it to be very much like the sound I got from a hybrid amp when used with an HD650, only with a tighter more extended bottom & a very controlled & better extended treble. Still on almost all my amps, I found the LCD-2 to be a really special headphone.  I haven't read all this thread so I don't yet know what the typical break-in is on this headphone, but already I'm liking as well as my beloved HE6LE, if not better.  I can't wait to get a nice SAA balanced cable & see how that sounds on my Phoenix.


 

 I loved my LCD-2 with the DACmini at RMAF.  While the HDP is a nice match for the LCD-2, the DACmini was more refined, smoother and more transparent sounding with the LCD-2 (and as a bonus much smoother sounding with the HD800, and still a good match for my HE-5 LE).  I wouldn't mind owning a DACmini; however, I still think my maxed WA6 is a better amp for the LCD-2.  I'm using Sylvania VT-231 tubes and a Sophia Princess 274b rectifier with the LCD-2 and it's a great pairing.  My maxed WA6 sounded a lot like the prototype WA22 I borrowed for a meet, but with a slightly more forward and narrower soundstage.  This was a similar finding to my comparisons with a Zana Deux and Melos SHA gold a few years ago.  When I bought my ZDT in 2009 it was supposed to replace my WA6, and I still can't part with it.


----------



## _Stooge_

Has anyone here had experience driving the LCD-2 off of a dynalo based amp?
   
  Thinking about upgrading my headphones soon and just wondering if my modest Sheer Audio HA-006+ would do these cans justice. My current set up is Pico DAC--> HA-006+ --> ATH-AD2000. Would I be pleased with going straight to a headphone upgrade or should I be looking into amp upgrades first?


----------



## K3cT

Quote: 





_stooge_ said:


> Has anyone here had experience driving the LCD-2 off of a dynalo based amp?
> 
> Thinking about upgrading my headphones soon and just wondering if my modest Sheer Audio HA-006+ would do these cans justice. My current set up is Pico DAC--> HA-006+ --> ATH-AD2000. Would I be pleased with going straight to a headphone upgrade or should I be looking into amp upgrades first?


 

  
  I almost forget that those Dynalos exist. Are yours the older or the upgraded version? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  That being said, I don't think it would be a problem so long it has sufficient gain. You might also want to search around for impressions from people who are using their LCD2 with the Gilmore Lite.


----------



## grokit

*>*


----------



## grokit

AustinHorn, you will like the LCD-2 balanced even better, I would bet $ on it. They really opened up for me when I changed cables for my WA22.


----------



## Frihed89

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 What audible criteria can one use for "DRIVING"?  I have already ruled out volume, and have been focusing on how well the headphones resolve the various parts of the orchestra on classical music and whether the music begins to sound "smeared" on very dynamic passages.  I've been using symphonies by Mahler and Ives, especially.  I would appreciate any good suggestions.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





frihed89 said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Well, this has been discussed ad nauseam in this thread more than once.  How picky is your hearing?  Do you want to have completely open, uncompressed, and natural sound?  Or is some dynamic compression ok with your ears?  What sort of dynamic range exists in the music you listen to?  If you listen to the right music, you may only need a few mW per channel, in which case an iPod will do.  Let your ears be your guide.
   
  The headphones are rated to yield 91dB/mW and to handle 15WRMS, which is over 21W peak to peak.
  At that level they will be putting out over 133dB.
   
  You need to decide within those boundaries, what criteria is acceptable to you. 
   
  For me, 3dB below that limit is more than acceptable, so something that puts out 6W or 7W is more than enough headroom to meet my needs with any kind of music and in reality, I will never approach those levels in real life listening, but I will know the system will deliver if/when called upon.  Given that, I should never experience any dynamic range compression or clipping problems. 
   
  That's what I want from my system.  What you want from your system is up to you. 
   
  Realistically, a couple of watts is probably more than most people will need, depending upon the demands of their music.  Rock is some of the least demanding and classical is some of the most demanding.


----------



## Frihed89

OK. I'm doing fine then because almost all the listening I do is to symphonic music - romantic and modern.  I don't detect any compression; the inner resolution is great; and the bass is tight and deep, although I have just installed black gates, so things ought to get even better.  I have some problems with the treble, but I believe, again, this is a coupling cap issue with new Audio Note copper caps.
   
  Thanks.


----------



## ptrok

Sorry to throw this in here but which would be the better set-up, the symphony or concerto/stage dac combo? I want to get one of the two for lcd 2's. Sorry for cutting in on the thread.


----------



## BebopMcJiggy

Are they not essentially the same with the concerto having 64 steps of volume instead of 32 (vs the symphony) and other minor upgrades and the stagedac has an additional WM8741 and probably other minor upgrades.  So if space and fancier casing is not a concern it should be obvious which should be slightly better than the other.  I don't really think that either is the best for the job but if that is what your heart is set on it shouldn't be a bad pairing but I don't know for sure.
   
  In any event I think that is in fact the purpose of this thread... well half of it anyhow accursed stage dac ;P.


----------



## K_19

Quote: 





_stooge_ said:


> Has anyone here had experience driving the LCD-2 off of a dynalo based amp?
> 
> Thinking about upgrading my headphones soon and just wondering if my modest Sheer Audio HA-006+ would do these cans justice. My current set up is Pico DAC--> HA-006+ --> ATH-AD2000. Would I be pleased with going straight to a headphone upgrade or should I be looking into amp upgrades first?


 

 I felt that my LCD-2 did great off the Gilmore Lite. It definitely has less of a soundstage width/depth than out of my WA6SE for example, but otherwise it drives the Audezes quite well.


----------



## Frihed89

My brain must have been asleep.  Are you talking about 2-7W into 50 Ohms? 
  
  Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> For me, 3dB below that limit is more than acceptable, so something that puts out 6W or 7W is more than enough headroom to meet my needs with any kind of music and in reality, I will never approach those levels in real life listening, but I will know the system will deliver if/when called upon.  Given that, I should never experience any dynamic range compression or clipping problems.
> 
> That's what I want from my system.  What you want from your system is up to you.
> 
> Realistically, a couple of watts is probably more than most people will need, depending upon the demands of their music.  Rock is some of the least demanding and classical is some of the most demanding.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Quote: 





frihed89 said:


> Thanks.


 

  
  X2, nice exchange with a great answer. Almost everything has been discussed "ad nauseam", but some explanations are easier to understand than others. How would you use the term "damping factor" as it relates to relative impedances of the amp and headphone in context with your above explanation, kwkarth? It has been asserted that damping factor isn't as important with orthos as raw current, but in general if you get a chance as they both seem to apply to the available headroom in a given combination.


----------



## _Stooge_

Quote: 





k_19 said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Thx for your input


----------



## AustinHorn

I want to get balanced cables for it so bad it hurts. Has anyone or group of anyones ever done a comparison of available balanced cables on the LCD-2? Haven had a number of aftermarket cables on my other headphones & I've almost always preferred the SSA cables to anything else. That included both SE & balanced congifurations. But I've never had an aftermarket cable for my only other ortho (HE5LE), so I don't know if my SSA bias will hold true in this case. Given the high prices on LCD2 XLR cables, it would be good to hear others experiences before I save up the $$$ to make the leap. So any thoughts or suggestions???


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





frihed89 said:


> My brain must have been asleep.  Are you talking about 2-7W into 50 Ohms?
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


 

 Yup!


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





grokit said:


> X2, nice exchange with a great answer. Almost everything has been discussed "ad nauseam", but some explanations are easier to understand than others. How would you use the term "damping factor" as it relates to relative impedances of the amp and headphone in context with your above explanation, kwkarth? It has been asserted that damping factor isn't as important with orthos as raw current, but in general if you get a chance as they both seem to apply to the available headroom in a given combination.


 
   
  As you say, "damping factor," per se, is not so important as a planar diaphragm doesn't have the typical uncontrolled / undamped resonance problems that a conventional dynamic driver has.  
   
  The other side of the same coin though has to do with an amplifiers' ability to actually deliver needed current into the load.  If an amplifier's internal resistance (as a current source) is too high, it's ability to deliver current to the load is lost as heat by it's own internal resistance.  Make sense?


----------



## grokit

Yes I think it does; as I understand it many amplifier designs use that internal resistance to reduce distortion, so I believe what you are saying is that reduced current and additional heat is part of the inevitable trade-off with this kind of design. And as far as damping factor goes it's related to the impedance ratio between the source and the cable+diaphragm, a higher ratio giving dynamic cans more headroom; this relates somehow to voltage more than current? I need to understand the relationship between voltage and impedance better (and where the heck watts fit in!), but I'm slowly getting there...


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





grokit said:


> Yes I think it does; as I understand it many amplifier designs use that internal resistance to reduce distortion, so I believe what you are saying is that reduced current and additional heat is part of the inevitable trade-off with this kind of design. And as far as damping factor goes it's related to the impedance ratio between the source and the cable+diaphragm, a higher ratio giving dynamic cans more headroom; this relates somehow to voltage more than current? I need to understand the relationship between voltage and impedance better (and where the heck watts fit in!), but I'm slowly getting there...


 

 The internal resistance/impedance of an amplifier output is the other side of exactly the same coin as is damping factor.  One and the same characteristic observed two different ways.


----------



## Currawong

kwkarth: I recall you mentioning in the main thread that the Burson HA-160 had a rather narrow soundstage with the LCD-2s.  I have been thinking that one of the ideal features of an amp for the LCD-2s is that it gives a wide soundstage (has low stereo crosstalk?), which would explain why people have had good results with fully balanced amps. Any thoughts?


----------



## mobayrasta

Quote: 





eertelppa said:


> any love for the bijou?


 


  Sounds great with my Bijou. A great combo.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





currawong said:


> kwkarth: I recall you mentioning in the main thread that the Burson HA-160 had a rather narrow soundstage with the LCD-2s.  I have been thinking that one of the ideal features of an amp for the LCD-2s is that it gives a wide soundstage (has low stereo crosstalk?), which would explain why people have had good results with fully balanced amps. Any thoughts?


 

 I for one, don't fully understand everything that goes in to creating or destroying "soundstage."  My current position is that I want an accurate recreation of the soundstage that was captured by the original recording.  Nothing more and nothing less.  It has been my experience that many things that we falsely interpret as soundstage are really psychoacoustic effects brought on by very subtle frequency response changes primarily in the midband.  A very slight dip in the 800Hz-2kHz region, for example can give the impression of greater depth.  Likewise a slightly elevated response in the same region can give the impression of shallow depth.  Soundstage width is created by stereophonic differences between the left and right channels.  We can falsely accentuate this electronically, but I would rather hear things reproduced accurately.
   
  The stereo crosstalk to which you refer, with respect to headphones and balanced amps essentially has little to do with true soundstage width per se.  Let me explain...
  You may be too young to remember this, but in the days of vinyl, even the very best of cartridges were only able to give 30dB of separation between channels, yet _some_ of the best soundstage retrieval I have ever heard came by way of vinyl.  Consider speakers in a room...  Again, with the right recording and the right room treatment, and the right speaker placement, and the right listener placement, one can experience some of the best soundstage retrieval there is to be had.
   
  Today's headamps easily exceed 50, 60, and even 70dB of crosstalk / channel separation.  Even the cheapest of today's amps do this.  Any claimed "goodness" by increased separation due to a "balanced" amp is meaningless / pure poppycock.
   
  Coming back to the Burson...  That is a very stout amp indeed, but to my ear it exhibited a subtle hardness, graininess, forwardness in the midband that tended to psycho-acoustically flatten the soundstage for me. 
   
  Regarding realistic soundstage retrieval...  For best soundstage and imaging, one's speakers should ideally be the same distance apart as the original stereo mics were that captured the recording in the first place.  That's why binaural recordings sound so good via headphones.  The original coincident pair of mics used were about the same distance apart as your ears are.
  Crossfeed has its purpose as provided by Headroom and Meier Audio products when listening to some material.
   
  One of the other things responsible for true soundstage and imaging is maintaining absolute faithfulness to the phase relationships across the spectrum as captured in the original venue.  The more this is compromised, the more soundstage and image is destroyed.
   
  Our brains do a remarkable job of trying to make "sense" of what we hear and when all the requisite pieces fall into place, we are rewarded with the illusion of reality.


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## SP Wild

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I am immediately reminded of the differences between my newly acquired Phoenix amp and the Lehmann BCL amp.  I posted impressions on the Phoenix thread where I noted that the Phoenix has a better "3 dimensionality" in that there is a depth perception to the frontal stage and that the BCL is more 2 dimensional and  flatter with less depth in the frontal stage...the terms I used for how you describe "3D" is separation, imaging and soundstaging. 
   
  Oddly enough the BCL had more of an uppermidrange (800hz - 2khz as you described) emphasis and the Phoenix had a de-emphasis on the exact same region.  Going back to DACs and the Bryston BDA1 dac once again had an emphasis and the Reference 7 dac a de-emphasis on the exact same range, and my conclusion was that Audio GD had better separation, imaging and staging.  Yet according to you...this is merely a psycho acoustic phenomena and is merely in my imagination.  I don't disbelieve you, but rather, I feel that a lot of value is placed on this "soundstage" for which I think such a vague concept has different meanings to different people due to different psychologies.
   
  Then I am reminded of my NOS dac that also de-emphasises the uppermidrange, but appears to be flatter...I believe in this case, it is a matter of poor wallwart PSU's leading to less dynamic headroom which makes an instrument unable to "leap out" from the wall of sound because dynamics are constrained by a poor switchmode wallwart PSU.  So I think a good PSU helps.  I do also think as a circuit approaches dual mono configurations I can hear a definitive division of the centre stage to left and right partitions...only noticeable with my closed D7000s.
   
  On a side note, last night I connected my headphones to my 2X50 watt tube amp, using the Phoenix as a pre-amplifier.  I did not used any resistors in the output to the headphones and this method yielded the largest soundstage of anything I have ever heard from any headphone amp possible.  The 3 dimesionality wasn't as delicate as the Phoenix as a headamp....
   
  but behold...even with the HD650...I found the limits of the Phoenix headamp, whereas with the speaker amp there was no limit...other than the destruction of the HD650 drivers, which I think I came close to.  Oddly my HD650s never sounded smoother after that experiment (or perhaps my hearing was temporarily subdued).  In the past I always felt my headphones can't handle power and sound compressed when more power is introduced...I realise now that the the compression is in the headphone amps and not the drivers.  Just imagine the dynamics of a concert hall and trying to simulate that with headphones...nothing will do other than my speaker amp directly powering the headphones.  The Phoenix comes real close... but the cans go just that teeny bit louder with the speaker amp before distortion traces can be heard.


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## kwkarth

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sp wild said:


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  Remember, more than simple psychoacoustics contribute to or detract from soundstage and imaging.  Midband colorations are only part of the picture.  I think I agree with you about the stiffness/headroom/quality of the power supply being very important.  I'm still of the opinion that channel/channel separation beyond 35dB is not as important as are many other things for soundstage and image retrieval.  .


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## SoupRKnowva

i would agree that alot of it definitely has to do with phase response, im not sure about the BCL but the phoenix is definitely no negative feedback, which helps maintain phase coherency.


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## SP Wild

There may be something to phase response.  Yes the uppermidrange emphasis on a LOT of solid state gear I hear as a kind of "phase smear" effect...kind of a resonating phasey property.  This includes the upsampling feature of the Bryston DAC which introduces phase smearing or electronic resonance as I hear it.  Kind of like the upper midrange is a tad out of phase leading to unstable images and instrument placements.  The end result is all the same, listening fatigue and "digititis" something that has never occurred to me in any real life acoustic performances.


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## ptrok

Quote: 





bebopmcjiggy said:


> Are they not essentially the same with the concerto having 64 steps of volume instead of 32 (vs the symphony) and other minor upgrades and the stagedac has an additional WM8741 and probably other minor upgrades.  So if space and fancier casing is not a concern it should be obvious which should be slightly better than the other.  I don't really think that either is the best for the job but if that is what your heart is set on it shouldn't be a bad pairing but I don't know for sure.
> 
> In any event I think that is in fact the purpose of this thread... well half of it anyhow accursed stage dac ;P.


 

 Thanks bebop, I'm not set on the concerto or symphony but they are the only amps I know of that may do a good job of driving these cans and are within my budget. If you have a better suggestion within the 1.5k budget it would be greatly appreciated. I want an amp and dac for this price so it kind of limits me with my current knowledge of hi-fi. Thanks in advance.


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## ak3r

Is that any good amp/dac combo for this headphone? =)


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## AustinHorn

ak3r said:


> Is that any good amp/dac combo for this headphone? =)





 


I'm using the newly released CEntrance DACmini & love that combo. I find it a big step up from my Nuforce HDP which is no slouch itself. The mini/LCD-2 being fed from amy PC via a HiFace USB converter = sonic nirvana with a really small footprint! Highly recommended!


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## MikeLa

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kwkarth said:


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 Which tube based headphone amps output 2-7W into 50 ohms?


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## El_Doug

7 watts?!?  none that I know of!  heck, a lot of tube speaker amps don't come close to that much power
   
  2 watts into 50 ohms MAYBE, but only the most powerful of headphone amps, which really should be considered speaker amps
  
  Quote: 





mikela said:


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## BournePerfect

The Auddio GD C-2 SA outputs 6 watts into 50 ohm, although it's a ss design...
   
  -Daniel


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## Equus

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ptrok said:


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  If I can put my two cents in, some of it depends on what you're going to feed it and a lot of it is going to be how you hear stuff.  Honestly, if budget was a huge concern I would actually be able to live with my Forte soundcard's built-in amp or my D10 as an amp/DAC, but taste and aesthetics can vary wildly between different people.  That and the different combinations can get a little wacky...like I know I didn't like a certain Marantz CD player feeding a Luxman P1u, but I have no idea if switching one of those components out would make me like it.  My main critical areas tend to be mids, followed by rounder trebles with low sibilance, separation, staging, bass, etc....so some of the rigs I really like don't float the boat for other folks.
   
  1.5k should be able to give you a little bit of options, especially if you want to consider DIY/custom-built and out-of-production/used stuff.  DACs, in particular, seem to change over relatively quickly, so the 1k DAC of today is probably going to sell for much less in a few years.


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## Kremer930

It may have already been said but check out the new Schiit Lyr headphone amp.  That is what I am planning to run with my Hifiman HE6.  I had a listen to a Meier Concerto with the LCD2's and they sounded very dark IMO.  The Lyr is great value too.


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## kwkarth

Quote: 





kremer930 said:


> It may have already been said but check out the new Schiit Lyr headphone amp.  That is what I am planning to run with my Hifiman HE6.  I had a listen to a Meier Concerto with the LCD2's and they sounded very dark IMO.  The Lyr is great value too.


 


  A bit too early to tell yet, but based on their track record and the specs, the Lyr looks like it might be THE amp to get.  Hard to wait!


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## ptrok

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equus said:


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  thanks for the advice, I will definitely look into those suggestions however do you have any advice for what dac's are worth looking into? The sea of head-fi is vast so without a little direction it can be overwhelming.


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## kwkarth

Quote: 





ptrok said:


> thanks for the advice, I will definitely look into those suggestions however do you have any advice for what dac's are worth looking into? The sea of head-fi is vast so without a little direction it can be overwhelming.


 
  Here's one thread you might look at, although there are many others as well;
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/505014/most-neutral-budget-dac


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## epocs

Anyone ever compare the Stagedac + Concerto versus the HDP ?
  
  I'm wondering if putting down more than double the cash is going to yield any sound improvements?


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## kwkarth

Even though I haven't heard the Stagedac/Concerto combo, I'm gonna go with what's behind that door.  I thought the HDP were not much more than so-so when I spent time with it.  Sonically neutral, smooth, but otherwise very unremarkable.


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## wower

I'm getting closer and closer to putting my name on the pre-order list for the Lyr against my better judgment of committing to an unknown quantity in the future. My common sense hesitates at getting the first generation/wave of these type of boutique products. OTOH my perceived _value _of this amp is off the scales. Indecision....


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## kwkarth

Quote: 





wower said:


> I'm getting closer and closer to putting my name on the pre-order list for the Lyr against my better judgment of committing to an unknown quantity in the future. My common sense hesitates at getting the first generation/wave of these type of boutique products. OTOH my perceived _value _of this amp is off the scales. Indecision....


 
  I agree with your "value assessment."  Keep two other things in mind...

 Even though the Lyr is a "new" model, its design incorporates elements and key learnings from the previous two products.  These guys seem to do their homework before they release their products.  There were very few post production issues with either of the two preceding products and this bodes very well for the Lyr.
 The manufacturer has a honeymoon return policy and a 5 yr. mfr. warranty.  How can we loose with that?


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## Kremer930

Quote: 





wower said:


> I'm getting closer and closer to putting my name on the pre-order list for the Lyr against my better judgment of committing to an unknown quantity in the future. My common sense hesitates at getting the first generation/wave of these type of boutique products. OTOH my perceived _value _of this amp is off the scales. Indecision....


 

 As a person that put my name down on 27 December and is still eagerly counting down the days to the March 1 release, I would like to add the following comments as support and comfort in making the decision to buy a Lyr.
  1.  Check out the background and experience and brand names associated with Jason and Mike.  There is some awesome gear that they have been involved with,
  2. Their current product offerings both get great reviews for their market segments
  3. It is great value.
  4. It has six watts and tubes and was designed with Ortho's in mind.
   
  Only approx 33 days to go....and counting.


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## gogogasgas

Back the 'consensus' point that was mentioned by a poster new to this thread.
   
  Going by the number of favourable comments and comparing them with the postings by those critical of other amps, the *SOLID STATE* contenders could be:
   
Budget*:* Schiit Asgard (FULLY DISCRETE)
Middle priced: Mier 'Concerto' (OPAMP DESIGN) (lots of raves)
  Middle Price: Audio GD headphone amps and Amp/DAC offerings (MOST/ALL FULLY DISCRETE)
Upper Middle price: Violectric 'HPA-V200' (OPAMP DESIGN)
Upper price: Audio GD 'Phoenix' (FULLY DISCRETE) (lots of raves)
   
_I'm trying to avoid Op-Amps, but it seems that there are quite a few manufactures who use them. Although Op-Amps can be implemented well, I'd prefer a quality, fully discrete amp...if many actually still exist in the solid state world._
   
  As for the posts on defining 'DRIVE' in an amp. Here's another word: GRUNT. In car engine terms, I would equate it with 'torque'. Back to electronics, then I would guess that plenty of available current may give you better 'drive' (all other variables considered).


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## Currawong

I did try the Schiit Asgard with my LCD-2s at the Sydney meet and it was a very boring combination. Granted, I am used to the Phoenix, which makes them far more lively.


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## gogogasgas

I've been reading the Head-Fi reviews of the Phoenix. A couple of posters said that it was just a tad light in the bass department, an attribute of many Class A designs. I haven't read though the behemoth Phoenix thread to find out, but I wonder if it could be a great match for the Denon AH7000. The Phoenix's tight and detailed (and slightly oomph-less?) bass could be a wonderful synergy with the AH7000's fulsome bass presentation. Has anyone tried it with the Denons?
   
  My other pondering in regards to the Phoenix involves the preamplifier. In preference to paying for a pre-amp that I wouldn't use, I would like a pass-through option so I could send the unsullied audio signal through to my existing preamp. Aesthetically, I hope those ugly LCDs can be switched off. Finally, sending well over a grand to China for an unheard piece of audio equipment makes me rather nervous. I'm wondering if the purchaser would encounter a 'Great Wall' of resistance should he or she pursue a refund in the case of a lemon.


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## oqvist

Quote: 





gogogasgas said:


> Back the 'consensus' point that was mentioned by a poster new to this thread.
> 
> Going by the number of favourable comments and comparing them with the postings by those critical of other amps, the *SOLID STATE* contenders could be:
> 
> ...


 

 Tried the V200 and I am one of the few that didn´t go crazy on it on any of my headphones. I just owned it for three weeks or so before I gave up. I had better luck with the GHP which is just a little more then half the price of the V200... More neutral, detailed and real sounding to my ears and I did never feel  it lacked power to the supposedly more powerful V200 with any kind of music. 
   
  I did enjoy the soundstage of the V200 though. That was an improvement over both the GHP but it was to coloured in the end.


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## kwkarth

Quote: 





currawong said:


> I did try the Schiit Asgard with my LCD-2s at the Sydney meet and it was a very boring combination. Granted, I am used to the Phoenix, which makes them far more lively.


 
  With the right front end, the Asgard is anything but boring.


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## gogogasgas

Quote: 





oqvist said:


> Tried the V200 and I am one of the few that didn´t go crazy on it on any of my headphones. I just owned it for three weeks or so before I gave up. I had better luck with the GHP which is just a little more then half the price of the V200... More neutral, detailed and real sounding to my ears and I did never feel  it lacked power to the supposedly more powerful V200 with any kind of music. I did enjoy the soundstage of the V200 though. That was an improvement over both the GHP but it was to coloured in the end.


 

 Has anyone else had a negative experience with the *V200* and the LCD-2s? Has anyone else had experience with the *GOLDPOINT HEADPHONE PRO* teamed with the LCD-2s? What does the GHP put out RMS per channel into 50 ohms?


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## Currawong

Quote: 





gogogasgas said:


> I've been reading the Head-Fi reviews of the Phoenix. A couple of posters said that it was just a tad light in the bass department, an attribute of many Class A designs. I haven't read though the behemoth Phoenix thread to find out, but I wonder if it could be a great match for the Denon AH7000. The Phoenix's tight and detailed (and slightly oomph-less?) bass could be a wonderful synergy with the AH7000's fulsome bass presentation. Has anyone tried it with the Denons?
> 
> My other pondering in regards to the Phoenix involves the preamplifier. In preference to paying for a pre-amp that I wouldn't use, I would like a pass-through option so I could send the unsullied audio signal through to my existing preamp. Aesthetically, I hope those ugly LCDs can be switched off. Finally, sending well over a grand to China for an unheard piece of audio equipment makes me rather nervous. I'm wondering if the purchaser would encounter a 'Great Wall' of resistance should he or she pursue a refund in the case of a lemon.


 

 They pay for shipping both ways during the warranty period.  IIRC another user ordered one with a switch to turn the LCD display off, so you might just ask what they can do for you about that and a pass-through option for the pre-amp outputs.
   
  With the "bass light" comment -- I'd say that, with my rig, the sense of space created with the music is so much more vast than with most gear and the amp is voiced to be absolutely dead neutral, that you might get this kind of impression.  I have seen positive comments from a few Denon owners possibly for these reasons.
   


  Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  We were using a Reference 7, so possibly a brighter source would be a better match.  I still reckon it's me though, as even gentle piano solos sound dramatic through my rig.


----------



## oqvist

Quote: 





gogogasgas said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 There is no real specs on the GHP but from what I gathered on what´s hinted and Violectric is not lying until they are blue in the face the V200 should be able to pull way more current. Maybe add a bit more noise due to that as well I am just going by ears and try to forget the specs or what pieces cost when I audition.
   
  I don´t want to say the V200 is bad it was very enjoyable surely but not my nr one pick. For the T1 it was clearly better then the GHP but then it didn´t have a chance to shine because I had the Auditor at the same time which was even more impressive with the T1 even though I musically preferred my tube for it.


----------



## gogogasgas

I've been putting off my 'big spend' with the headphone/headphone amp until I've finished an even bigger spend (and trauma) with my set-up's front end. Now I'm starting to think that the LCD-2s might be just too hard to match with a headphone amp to bother. The feedback on the few solid state options that would do the LCD-2s real justice is mixed and just slightly bewildering. That's why I mentioned the Denon 7000s in an earlier post. Although the Denons seem (to me) like a bit of a dinosaur, albiet, a top notch one, they are starting to look like an easy option that would give me long lasting satisfaction...with the right amp. However, I feel that LCD-2 is a landmark headphone design that I would like to own to complete and compliment the rest of my rig.
   
  Last year, I was talking with a gent who builds Planar speakers. If I remember what he said correctly, the major part of the effective amplification of planar speakers is a large supply of current. The knowledgeable Head Fi folk have also pointed this out in relation to the LCD-2s, along with the other parts of the 'recipe' for good amplification. Perhaps this is why a number of Head Fi-ers like the Audio GD Phoenix - it looks like it has a very decent power supply. 
   
  Kwkarth is a fan of the Schiit Asgard. At $250, it looks like a great option until the right super-solid-state amp is released. At the moment, I feel that headphone amp just isn't available yet. As much as I am adverse to valves/tubes, the yet-to-be available Schiit hybrid might just make a Lyr out of me!


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





gogogasgas said:


> I've been putting off my 'big spend' with the headphone/headphone amp until I've finished an even bigger spend (and trauma) with my set-up's front end. Now I'm starting to think that the LCD-2s might be just too hard to match with a headphone amp to bother. The feedback on the few solid state options that would do the LCD-2s real justice is mixed and just slightly bewildering. That's why I mentioned the Denon 7000s in an earlier post. Although the Denons seem (to me) like a bit of a dinosaur, albiet, a top notch one, they are starting to look like an easy option that would give me long lasting satisfaction...with the right amp. However, I feel that LCD-2 is a landmark headphone design that I would like to own to complete and compliment the rest of my rig.
> 
> Last year, I was talking with a gent who builds Planar speakers. If I remember what he said correctly, the major part of the effective amplification of planar speakers is a large supply of current. The knowledgeable Head Fi folk have also pointed this out in relation to the LCD-2s, along with the other parts of the 'recipe' for good amplification. Perhaps this is why a number of Head Fi-ers like the Audio GD Phoenix - it looks like it has a very decent power supply.
> 
> Kwkarth is a fan of the Schiit Asgard. At $250, it looks like a great option until the right super-solid-state amp is released. At the moment, I feel that headphone amp just isn't available yet. As much as I am adverse to valves/tubes, the yet-to-be available Schiit hybrid might just make a Lyr out of me!


 


  The right solid state amp is on the market and its the Meir Concerto which was and is still the best solid state I have heard to date outclassing many more more expensive amps I have heard.  TheMeir has it all very good bass neutral powerful with a nice treble and a great volume control with zero noise. highly recommended and my favorite solid state amp. But if you really want musical magic the Woo' Decware and Leben will take you all the way there.


----------



## oqvist

gogogas I would say the LCD-2 is one of  the EASIEST of the headphones I currently own to satisfy with amps. But you want to spoil it rotten anyway


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## Jimmy-Jack

[size=10pt]This post addresses three subjects:[/size]
  [size=10pt]The LCD 2 in general[/size]
  [size=10pt]The LCD 2 when driven by the [size=x-small]HeadRoom Balanced Desktop Amp[/size][/size]
  [size=10pt][size=x-small]The LCD 2 with same amp plus a new cable[/size][/size]
   
  [size=10pt]I've been listening to a pair of LCD2s for the past few weeks, driving them via a HeadRoom Balanced Desktop Amp (the amp is actually the version that comes with a DAC, which they've since stopped offering in a balanced version; both the DAC and amp portions have all possible upgrades). I feel I've had adequate time to form an opinion.[/size]
  [size=10pt] [/size]
*[size=10pt]First, my references[/size]*[size=10pt] in the headphone world are few; I own a pair of closed Audiotechnica ATH M-50s and a pair of Sennheiser HD200s (closed cans that I bought to use when evaluating CDs at the local library). My references in the non headphone world are extensive; I've spent years building and perfecting a multi-SET-amped, 6-way, all-horn system.[/size]
  [size=10pt] [/size]
*[size=10pt]Initial impressions: [/size]*[size=10pt]Using the very well-made (nicely soldered; I checked) balanced cable purchased from Audieze, Right out of the box, the headphones were, to my ears, underwhelming; yes they sounded better than my other "cheap" headphones, but they also sounded congested; a little congested relative to my other headphones, and way congested relative to my horn system. I listen mainly to classical (orchestral) and jazz, and I'm used to hearing the texture in acoustic instruments; that goes for strings wood winds and brass.[/size]
  [size=10pt] [/size]
  [size=10pt]I tried the unbalanced cable and confirmed that, in the case of the amp in question driving these phones, balanced is clearly the way to go.[/size]
  [size=10pt] [/size]
  [size=10pt]I decided to give myself the next few days to think it over; translation; "did I really want to keep them?"[/size]
  [size=10pt] [/size]
*[size=10pt]New cable: [/size]*[size=10pt]That weekend, I pulled out a box of cable I bought from a military surplus source. I selected, mostly based on diameter and insulation material, what looked to me like an appropriate cable. Stripping off the insulation confirmed that it was Teflon, revealing conductors (multi stranded) that were not gold in color, but a silvery grey; I have no idea if its real silver or what. The wire comes as a twisted pair; the guy that sold it to me said it was from the 1980's. He could almost certainly tell me more, as it came off a large spool that likely has a reference, but at the time I had no idea I'd be using it for this purpose, so didn't ask.[/size]
  [size=10pt] [/size]
  [size=10pt]I ran eight single conductors (four twisted pairs), from XLRs to mini XLRs (eight feet length); this is the same number of conductors that ALO use in their recent version of the Chainmail cable.[/size]
  [size=10pt] [/size]
  [size=10pt]By the way, I laughed at the price of that ALO cable until I tried making my own... I now know that I would not do the work for one penny less than what ALO ask.[/size]
  [size=10pt] [/size]
  [size=10pt]Time for a test listen; didn't even bother shrinking the heat shrink... I was totally prepared to toss the whole thing without wasting another second, and this frankly is exactly what I expected I'd be doing. However...[/size]
  [size=10pt] [/size]
*[size=10pt]Results with new cable: [/size]*[size=10pt]Whoa!!! It took me a couple minutes to believe the difference. Gone were ALL signs of congestion; everything opened up; it sounded like I had been cured of a head cold, and there was texture galore; brass had that brassy "blatt" when called for (I hate that expression!); strings had the grunge and the hairiness, woodwinds; I don't know how to describe that quality, whatever, it all sounded instantly right; the kind of right that makes you want to turn up the volume and forget about shrinking that heat-shrink. Three weeks later I finally shrunk (shrank?) it. I should also mention that the new cable cleaned up, opened up, and relaxed the bass; with the original cable, I found the bass a bit heavy-handed and slightly clouded. If it was not already understood by my coments regarding openness, s[size=x-small]ound stage benefited significantly. [size=x-small]Regarding what is sometimes said about the LCD 2s possibly rolling off treble, yes, with the orig cable, they do, and I think this is one reason why they are known to be so forgiving of badly mastered recordings (dynamically compressed). What I feel is the rolling off is purely a result of the original cable, as the cable I made totally fixed that. [/size]*Negatives? *Well, t[/size]he only possible negative is what I just mentioned; a somewhat reduced tolerance to badly mastered (dynamically compressed) music, which is normal, as the upper end is now open and clear, but I'm talking only the really horribly mastered stuff here... I have no problem listening to the majority of my pop and rock recordings.[/size]
  [size=10pt] [/size]
*[size=10pt]Conclusions:[/size]*
  [size=10pt] [/size]
  [size=10pt]*Regarding the LCD 2;* based on my little experiment, I'd say if you're not completely happy, don't even think about selling them until you've tried a good (whatever that means; lots of conductors?) cable, and if you have or can swing a balanced amp, so much the better.[/size]
  [size=10pt] [/size]
  [size=10pt]*Regarding the LDC 2 with the HeadRoom Balanced Desktop Amp;* I haven't tried any others (I'm afraid to drive the LCD 2s with my SET amps), but I can tell you, this is one nice-sounding combination; I can't find anything I'd want to change. The "Home DAC" upgrade in this amp by the way is outstanding, but I was not able to compare it to the standard DAC.[/size]
  [size=10pt] [/size]
  [size=10pt]I have on hand some nice oxygen-free copper wire (two kinds actually; one just copper and the other plated with silver, both of which I can easily identify by manufacturer etc); its a little too fat for the mini XLRs, but if I can stop listening, I might go ahead and make up some other cables just for comparison; if I do, I'll post a follow up, probably in a "cable thread".[/size]


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## Frihed89

Quote: 





mikela said:


> >
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Good for you. 
   
  There are some SET amps that will put out, say, 8W into 8 Ohms or 3.5W into Ohms through the speaker connections.  But they won't deliver anything like that into 30-50 Ohms through the headphone outputs.  Ask Craig Uthus, for example, how much power (and current) the ZDT delivers into the LCD-2 load?  Or his new 2A3 amp.


----------



## Paganini Alfredo

Quote: 





jimmy-jack said:


> [size=10pt][/size]  [size=10pt] [/size]
> *[size=10pt]Results with new cable: [/size]*[size=10pt]Whoa!!! It took me a couple minutes to believe the difference. Gone were ALL signs of congestion; everything opened up; it sounded like I had been cured of a head cold, and there was texture galore; brass had that brassy "blatt" when called for (I hate that expression!); strings had the grunge and the hairiness, woodwinds; I don't know how to describe that quality, whatever, it all sounded instantly right; the kind of right that makes you want to turn up the volume and forget about shrinking that heat-shrink.[/size]
> [size=10pt][/size]
> 
> ...


 

 Did you get a bum cable or something from ALO? I'm using a single ended chain mail cable out of a HR Ultra Desktop and can't place anything you said about the sound, at least not by swapping different cables.
   
  Also, if you have the "home" DAC, that is the stepdown and basic DAC they have to offer. The "upgrade" DAC is the Max DAC found in the ultra desktop. If I'm wrong about any of this someone please correct me!


----------



## gogogasgas

Quote:


> The right solid state amp is on the market and its the Meir Concerto which was and is still the best solid state I have heard to date outclassing many more more expensive amps I have heard.  TheMeir has it all very good bass neutral powerful with a nice treble and a great volume control with zero noise. highly recommended and my favorite solid state amp. But if you really want musical magic the Woo' Decware and Leben will take you all the way there.


 
  Thanks, Frank. I'm wondering what sort of headroom the Mier would have before it ran out of puff.  This is an OPAMP design, yes?
   


oqvist said:


> gogogas I would say the LCD-2 is one of  the EASIEST of the headphones I currently own to satisfy with amps. But you want to spoil it rotten anyway


 
   
_Oqvist, I should have emphasised what you have stated. I want not just an amp that would work 'OK' with the LCD-2s; I want one to bring out the 'best' in the LCD-2s! Spoil it rotten, as you say!_
  


jimmy-jack said:


> (edited)
> *[size=10pt]Results with new cable: [/size]*[size=10pt]Whoa!!! It took me a couple minutes to believe the difference. Gone were ALL signs of congestion; everything opened up.[/size]
> *Regarding the LCD 2;* based on my little experiment, I'd say if you're not completely happy, don't even think about selling them until you've tried a good (whatever that means; lots of conductors?) cable, and if you have or can swing a balanced amp, so much the better.


 
   
_JJ, there is so much interesting info in your post. Hats-off to your hands-on approach. I was thinking that the impedance of the stock cable/s was not a good match for your amp. Perhaps Audeze might shed some light on the design and materials objectives for the stock cable. You may have found a solution to a problem that other posters have commented on. In particular, why some amps sound congested with the LCD-2s. It may be the interaction of the stock cable with their amps, and not the amps, per say._
   
  When ordering the LCD-2s, do I just order them with the standard cable and then buy an balanced after market cable (assuming that I decide to go balanced)? And, since I am new to the world of balanced cables, why does the Audeze site ask the purchaser to choose between balanced cable with two 3 pin connectors or balanced cable with a 4 pin connector? What does this mean? Is the answer determined by the different connections offered by the various models of balanced amplifiers?


----------



## matthewh133

Quote: 





gogogasgas said:


> I've been putting off my 'big spend' with the headphone/headphone amp until I've finished an even bigger spend (and trauma) with my set-up's front end. Now I'm starting to think that the LCD-2s might be just too hard to match with a headphone amp to bother. The feedback on the few solid state options that would do the LCD-2s real justice is mixed and just slightly bewildering. That's why I mentioned the Denon 7000s in an earlier post. Although the Denons seem (to me) like a bit of a dinosaur, albiet, a top notch one, they are starting to look like an easy option that would give me long lasting satisfaction...with the right amp. However, I feel that LCD-2 is a landmark headphone design that I would like to own to complete and compliment the rest of my rig.
> 
> Last year, I was talking with a gent who builds Planar speakers. If I remember what he said correctly, the major part of the effective amplification of planar speakers is a large supply of current. The knowledgeable Head Fi folk have also pointed this out in relation to the LCD-2s, along with the other parts of the 'recipe' for good amplification. Perhaps this is why a number of Head Fi-ers like the Audio GD Phoenix - it looks like it has a very decent power supply.
> 
> Kwkarth is a fan of the Schiit Asgard. At $250, it looks like a great option until the right super-solid-state amp is released. At the moment, I feel that headphone amp just isn't available yet. As much as I am adverse to valves/tubes, the yet-to-be available Schiit hybrid might just make a Lyr out of me!


 

 TBH, I have tried it through the Burson HA-160 and it sounds incredible. Bought more life to it, and made it a little less dark with more energy. IMO that's a good thing, depends on your taste.


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





gogogasgas said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> > The right solid state amp is on the market and its the Meir Concerto which was and is still the best solid state I have heard to date outclassing many more more expensive amps I have heard.  TheMeir has it all very good bass neutral powerful with a nice treble and a great volume control with zero noise. highly recommended and my favorite solid state amp. But if you really want musical magic the Woo' Decware and Leben will take you all the way there.
> ...


 


  The Meir never ran out of puff it was very loud at 9 and it will blow your head up at 11. The Meir is a very nice amp for the LCD2 and I enjoyed my time with it. But if you want to spend upwards of 1k there is Decware and Woo amps which are better but more expensive.


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





frank i said:


> The Meir never ran out of puff it was very loud at 9 and it will blow your head up at 11. The Meir is a very nice amp for the LCD2 and I enjoyed my time with it. But if you want to spend upwards of 1k there is Decware and Woo amps which are better but more expensive.


 

 Frank's comments mirror my own as well with regards to the Concerto. But in the end, I slightly prefer my Woo WA2 a bit more with them. Both amps have very good headroom with the LCD-2s.


----------



## Jimmy-Jack

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *Paganini Alfredo*
> 
> Did you get a bum cable or something from ALO? I'm using a single ended chain mail cable out of a HR Ultra Desktop and can't place anything you said about the sound, at least not by swapping different cables.
> 
> Also, if you have the "home" DAC, that is the stepdown and basic DAC they have to offer. The "upgrade" DAC is the Max DAC found in the ultra desktop. If I'm wrong about any of this someone please correct me!


 

*ALO cable? *Alfredo, you seem to have misunderstood my post regarding cables: I don't have and never did have an ALO cable; the only cables I have are the balanced and un-balanced cables purchased from Audieze, and the balanced cable I made myself. I would like to have an ALO cable for comparison with the one I made...
   
*"Home" Upgrades to HeadRoom Balanced Desktop amp: *The way I understand it, at the time mine was made (2007), the "Home" upgrades (Home module and Home DAC,) constituted their ultimate offering (see linked article below); along with the Home upgrades, you could also specify a stepped attenuator. The unit I have has all of these options. HeadRoom has since that time stopped offering the DAC module in their balanced amp, and have changed the name of thier upgrades from "Home" to "Max". The unit I own is basically still available, but not in one box. Also, the new stand alone DAC has likely evolved quite a bit relative to the one in my unit (which is a non-oversampling DAC).
   
*Regarding that DAC* and my comment about is sound quality; this refers to use with the USB input (obviously, my comment assumes the user understands how and is successful in optimising its interaction with a computer). Also, I say it sounds good, but good as compared to what? This is when directly comparred to the $3500 stand-alone DAC of my non-headphone system (it is possible to feed the HeadRoom amp section with an external DAC and compare it directly to the internal DAC via headphones).
   
*Nice images *of the internals, including the stepped attenuator and a discussion of the Home upgrades at the following link
  (starts off talking about power supply; interesting but scroll down to see the images and read about the upgrades):
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue30/headroom_balanced.htm


----------



## Paganini Alfredo

I was tired while reading your post and responding, so apologies as I misinterpreted most of what you had to say. Thanks for the clarifications!


----------



## gogogasgas

RE: Violectric V200. I read 'somewhere' that this amplifier uses Op-Amps. True?


----------



## BebopMcJiggy

Quote: 





gogogasgas said:


> When ordering the LCD-2s, do I just order them with the standard cable and then buy an balanced after market cable (assuming that I decide to go balanced)? And, since I am new to the world of balanced cables, why does the Audeze site ask the purchaser to choose between balanced cable with two 3 pin connectors or balanced cable with a 4 pin connector? What does this mean? Is the answer determined by the different connections offered by the various models of balanced amplifiers?


 


  Yeah pretty much.  Some amps have dual 3 pin outputs and some single 4 pin outputs, a headphone load doesn't use the ground pin of the 3 pin connectors anyhow.  Some amps have both though.  I think for headphones the single 4 pin is more convenient, though some amps have the 3 pin xlr plugs because the 4 pin plugs don't come as combo xlr/trs jacks.
   
  If you mean integrated circuit op-amps then yes it would appear that it does... I think all the Meier amps, are pretty ic op-amp happy though and most don't seem to mind.


----------



## RedBull

I don't think using op-amp is a problem though, just curious, is Lehmann BCL also using IC op-amp? anybody knows?


----------



## BebopMcJiggy

I think they are both discreet designs using IC op-amps for DC servo or something actually.  I am not certain.
   
  Err nope I was wrong, the BCL uses an ic op-amp based first amplification stage.


----------



## gogogasgas

Thanks, Bebop for the op-amp low-down. What about the Audio GD Phoenix?


----------



## BebopMcJiggy

I believe the phoenix is supposed to be fully discrete.


----------



## gogogasgas

Audio GD Phoenix is fully discrete? At last I've found another one! I think the Schiit Asgard is too, yes?
   
  I'm trying to avoid Op-Amps, but it seems that quite a few manufactures use them. I know that Op-Amps can be implemented well, but I'm after a quality, fully discrete amp...if many still exist. What other fully-discrete headphone amps do you know of Bebop?


----------



## PFKMan23

Quote: 





frank i said:


> > The right solid state amp is on the market and its the Meir Concerto which was and is still the best solid state I have heard to date outclassing many more more expensive amps I have heard.


 

 What amps have you heard?


----------



## BebopMcJiggy

Most amps that are fully discrete will list it as a feature or marketing bullet point somewhere.
   
  For example the phoenix page on audio-gd's website begins with "*[size=x-small]Summarize:[/size]*[size=x-small] [/size][size=x-small]Fully discrete"[/size]
  and the asgard page starts with "Asgard is a fully discrete"...
   
  I know the b22 and a20 are fully discrete, and if you are into diy a b22 could be made for about the same as a phoenix, with probably worse casework, or the a20 could probably be made to be quite cheap.  I am making a pre-amp based around the a20 but due to my laziness in acquiring an attenuator and case I have yet to actually listen to it yet...
   
  This is not counting your own manual labor though in the cost.  I think my balanced b22 sounds great with the LCD-2s but I must admit I've never heard the phoenix, v200 or asgard to compare it to.


----------



## gogogasgas

Thanks, Bebop. In years gone by, 'Fully Discrete' was used to indicate quality equipment and today it's something to look out for again.


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





pfkman23 said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 B22,Matrix<aAsgard and the Concerto also Gilmore Light and the Concerto was best with the LCD2and also had the PS audio GCHA


----------



## RedBull

Thanks Bebop.  One more fully discrete will be Burson 160?


----------



## gogogasgas

Quote: 





redbull said:


> Thanks Bebop.  One more fully discrete will be Burson 160?


 

 Depending on where you sit on the 'fully discrete' issue, potentially bad news I'm afraid. If the following link is correct, the Burson 160 is most definitely an Opamp design. CLICK HERE.
   
  I'll hazard a guess: manufactures use Opamps because they are cheaper, require less substantial power supplies, have a smaller footprint (ie the casework is smaller) and use less power than a fully discrete solid state amp. Then, they can add some expensive other 'bits' and put the whole shebang into a groovy case.
   
  The fully discrete, solid state Schiit Asgard is looking more and more like an audio bargain.


----------



## Currawong

I'm informed that the Burson, technically, it IS an OPAMP design, but rather than a chip or chips, it uses an OPAMP circuit made from discrete components.


----------



## zilch0md

The Naked Truth About Opamp
   
   I still love the sound of my IC-based amp, but this makes sense.
   
   Mike


----------



## gogogasgas

Quote:


currawong said:


> I'm informed that the Burson, technically, it IS an OPAMP design, but rather than a chip or chips, it uses an OPAMP circuit made from discrete components.


 
  Quote:


zilch0md said:


> The Naked Truth About Opamp
> I still love the sound of my IC-based amp, but this makes sense.


 

 When is an Opamp not an Opamp? When it is a Discrete Opamp. Thanks for the very interesting follow-on, Currowong and Zilch. However, I can't help but feeling that a Discrete Opamp is like being a little bit pregnant. Either you is or you ain't.
   
  I wonder if the Violectric is one of these Discrete Opamp designs?


----------



## ptrok

hopefully someone can help me with this question about the decware taboo. I was thinking of getting this along with the lcd's but was wondering what the sound signature was like. I only know about the lcd's through the knowledge of other members and want to take the plunge but need to find an amp to compliment them. Information I have received second - hand from members note transparency but also state that the treble is recessed and they also note a somewhat narrow soundstage. 

I don't particularly need exaggerated treble because I am sensitive to higher frequencies but do like to have good detail. But I do have to admit, I like an expansive soundstage when I am listening to classical or some of my live recordings so I can feel like I'm there. Therein lies my question, would the decaware taboo be able to add to these two aspects so as to compensate and compliment the lcd's? 

I have heard diverse opinions concerning the perfect amp for the lcd's and am also considering the stage dac/ concerto combo with enough information about the sound signature that it provides. Also, I am looking forward to the Lyr and dac combo schiit will be coming out with once the reviews start coming out. 

Beforehand i would like to thank you guys for the invaluable information you guys provide and have really come to love the quest for audio nirvana. BTW my wife hates you guys LOL. Thanks again.


----------



## K3cT

A perfect amp for the LCD2 would something that sounds clean, perhaps to the brighter side, and provides ample of current. 
   
  I still don't like the Concerto with the LCD2 no matter what people say here. The Burson HA160 does a much better job.
   
  Also wrong headphone to buy if you're looking for an expansive soundstage. HD800 or Stax Lambda would perfectly fit that bill.


----------



## hardtarget666

AudioGD NFB-10 (ES/WM) is another amp that is fully discrete. Initial impressions from users talks about a good synergy between LCD-2 & NFB-10ES.


----------



## ptrok

Quote: 





k3ct said:


> A perfect amp for the LCD2 would something that sounds clean, perhaps to the brighter side, and provides ample of current.
> 
> I still don't like the Concerto with the LCD2 no matter what people say here. The Burson HA160 does a much better job.
> 
> Also wrong headphone to buy if you're looking for an expansive soundstage. HD800 or Stax Lambda would perfectly fit that bill.


 
  I like all the sound signatures described by the owners but would like an amp that could open up the soundstage a little so as to give the music depth. Don't like the exaggerated treble and tinny description of the Hd800 or the price increase...lol. As for the stax, I am not familiar with them and will look into it, thanks.


----------



## gogogasgas

RE: Mier Concerto with the LCD-2s. Seems like people either love it or hate it as a combination.


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





gogogasgas said:


> RE: Mier Concerto with the LCD-2s. Seems like people either love it or hate it as a combination.


 
   
  As they say you can't make all the people happy all the time, nor would you ever expect to either. Not one piece of gear on Head-fi is universally loved. The Concerto is a bang on neutral amp and pairs very well with the LCD-2s to my ears and has plenty of headroom too. A few don't think so, heck many don't even like the LCD-2s no matter what amp you pair with them.
   
  Number one rule of audio...if it sounds good to your ears, then it is. And the corollary, if it doesn't sound good to your ears....it is not (no matter how much it costs).


----------



## Currawong

I do like how the Phoenix opens up the soundstage to make the LCD-2s more Stax-like (except tonally) but while keeping the dynamic punch. That is possibly why the NFB-10 owners have had good luck too.


----------



## gogogasgas

Quote:


macedonianhero said:


> Number one rule of audio...if it sounds good to your ears, then it is. And the corollary, if it doesn't sound good to your ears....it is not (no matter how much it costs).


 
  So true! But there are some combinations of gear that sound crap to the majority. Checking in here to read a poster's experience with a piece of kit at least shortens the list, saves time and potentially saves the punter some money. Plus, I learn so much about audio in these postings!
 Quote:


currawong said:


> I do like how the Phoenix opens up the soundstage to make the LCD-2s more Stax-like (except tonally) but while keeping the dynamic punch. That is possibly why the NFB-10 owners have had good luck too.


 
  Yes, I might have to bite the bullet and go with the Phoenix. I can't see anything else out there in the solid state world that offers the Phoenix's audio and design quality, incredible versatility and more than fair pricing.
   
  HELP department: The next bit is off topic (and even this parameters of this site): If any Head Fi members have any experience or knowledge of the* Ortofon RS-309D tonearm*, or the other tonearms in the current Ortofon range, could you contact me directly. Thanks


----------



## wht

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *MacedonianHero* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


 

 The Concerto/LCD-2 pairing works for me.


----------



## sokolov91

Quote: 





zilch0md said:


> The Naked Truth About Opamp
> 
> I still love the sound of my IC-based amp, but this makes sense.
> 
> Mike


 
  They also base their entire business on asserting IC op amps sound bad...
  even the crazies over at 6moons liked the Concerto and specifically said that it laid waste to Burson's claims. Doesn't mean the article is misinformation on a technical level, but if the info doesn't actually relate to sonics it doesn't really matter...
   
  FWIW for the money I thought the concerto was a very good amp and sounded great with the LCD-2.


----------



## okw3188

Yeap, Concerto and LCD-2 for me too. I found out the hard way, as I began with a DIY QED Silver Spiral interconnect between CD and amp. The high frequency was too bright to my likings.
   
  But it's all rectify when I replace the interconnect with a PCOCC cable, it makes me feel like listening to the fantastic combination again and again, whole day long....
  
  Quote: 





wht said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## RedBull

Even Lehmann BCL and LCD-2 works for me. I like it slightly better than DV337 with LCD-2.


----------



## Equus

Quote: 





ptrok said:


> I like all the sound signatures described by the owners but would like an amp that could open up the soundstage a little so as to give the music depth. Don't like the exaggerated treble and tinny description of the Hd800 or the price increase...lol. As for the stax, I am not familiar with them and will look into it, thanks.


 


  Added detail and separation might also give the sound depth, depending on what you're going for.  There's amps that to my ears give a very wide expansive left to right staging, while there are some that might not be as wide but give a very good sense of layers and space around the sounds.  Either can be good, depending on what you want.  For me, the LCD-2's give so much information that the "width" of the soundstage sometimes isn't as important sometimes as the detail, space, and specificity of the sound, but it's all a matter of taste.  From the limited time I've spent with HD800's, I sometimes think the soundstage is unnaturally large, almost like it's stretched.  There's definitely some music and tastes that it works for though, so YMMV.  To be fair, I also haven't heard the HD800s with an amp that doesn't cause me fatigue at some point.
   
  When you say "soundstage" and "depth" are you talking about left to right staging, separation and layers, or both?


----------



## ptrok

Quote: 





equus said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I'm greedy in the fact that I would like both but I am more concerned with depth if I were to choose one of the two. Due to the comments of others I have also been looking into Audiogd as a possible alternative as well. The fact that they are located in China, makes it easier and cheaper for me to deal with them. But I am still saving up so I have time to think about it.


----------



## zilch0md

Hi gogogasgas,
   
  Apparently, all of Schiit's circuits are discrete:
   
   Quoting from http://schiit.com/schiit-faq/general-questions/:
   


> First, use the simplest, purest possible circuit to achieve a specific goal. We’re not in the business of building discrete op-amps; we’re in the business of making music. *That’s why you’ll see that all of our circuits are discrete*, feature zero feedback, a single voltage gain stage, and are single-ended and noninverting.


 
   
  Mike


----------



## RedBull

I have nothing again Schiit, I never heard any Schiit products and I'm sure they are good, but I don't believe in generalization that no-opamp has to be good, like I used to.  I know some products that's VERY good on paper but <blah> on sound, at least to my ears, so, I suggest you forget about IC and non IC based at the moment, listen, judge, then you can read whether they're using IC or not.  My Lehmann BCL (to my ears) are better than those Class A, fully discrete, using the best component in the world etc etc, ok ay okay, Apache is REALLY good I admit.
   
  Wish I could listen to the Asgard tho one day, quite an interesting product it sounds, from people feedback.


----------



## El_Doug

...the Apache is op-amp based  
  
  Quote: 





redbull said:


> I have nothing again Schiit, I never heard any Schiit products and I'm sure they are good, but I don't believe in generalization that no-opamp has to be good, like I used to.  I know some products that's VERY good on paper but <blah> on sound, at least to my ears, so, I suggest you forget about IC and non IC based at the moment, listen, judge, then you can read whether they're using IC or not.  My Lehmann BCL (to my ears) are better than those Class A, fully discrete, using the best component in the world etc etc, ok ay okay, Apache is REALLY good I admit.
> 
> Wish I could listen to the Asgard tho one day, quite an interesting product it sounds, from people feedback.


----------



## gogogasgas

Quote:


> I do like how the Phoenix opens up the soundstage to make the LCD-2s more Stax-like (except tonally) but while keeping the dynamic punch. That is possibly why the NFB-10 owners have had good luck too.


 
  Currawong, you also have a very useful post on this site where you compare the Luxman P1 headphone to the Phoenix. Just can't remember where I saw it or I would put a link in for the other members.
  I've been trawling through the Phoenix blog (some of the posts are really 'out there'!) and I believe that the Phoenix (from reports) takes the whole headphone experience to the next level. My main caveat is customer support over time - however, the feedback from Headfi folk dealing with Audio GD seems excellent. Have you had any issues thus-far with the Phoenix/LCD-2 combo?


> Originally Posted by *zilch0md* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Apparently, all of Schiit's circuits are discrete:
> Quoting from http://schiit.com/schiit-faq/general-questions/:
> ...


 
  Quality and simplicity at a good price. Even though its a hybrid, the new Schiit model is something to watch out for. Epecially as its been designed as a fit for the LCD-2s. No balanced connections, though. 


> ...the Apache is op-amp based


 

  And the Apache is a $3,000 set up!


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





equus said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


  I have only recently experienced "depth" with greater understanding with the Phoenix - Ref7 combo driving the LCD2s balanced.  I've never heard headphones with this sense of realism in the past, the frontal and side layering effect is remarkable...I have never enjoyed headphones like this before...


  Quote: 





redbull said:


> I have nothing again Schiit, I never heard any Schiit products and I'm sure they are good, but I don't believe in generalization that no-opamp has to be good, like I used to.  I know some products that's VERY good on paper but <blah> on sound, at least to my ears, so, I suggest you forget about IC and non IC based at the moment, listen, judge, then you can read whether they're using IC or not.  My Lehmann BCL (to my ears) are better than those Class A, fully discrete, using the best component in the world etc etc, ok ay okay, Apache is REALLY good I admit.
> 
> Wish I could listen to the Asgard tho one day, quite an interesting product it sounds, from people feedback.


 

 I ran the LCD2s with the BCL as a technical benchmark for quite a while and thoroughly enjoyed the combo.  Before the LCD2s (and a lesser extent the D7000s)...I was starting to view solid states as inferior to tubes.  The LCD2s were the first headphone I owned that was able to exploit the full potential of the Lehmanns circuit speed.  Its a great amp for those that feel the LCD2s need an injection of a cooler signal, I personally felt that with some dacs, the Lehmann and LCD2s leaned on the cooler side on a lot of recordings for my preferences.
   
  On another note, I had a Meir StageDac and Concerto at my desk with my other components...I felt the Concerto was a better amp than the StageDac as a dac.  The Concerto sounded more powerful and more organic than the Lehmann.  It also seems like a better engineered product overall than the Lehmann, therefore the value for money is much greater.  I wish I had more time with the Concerto, but I was constrained time.  I didn't hear any flaws with the LCD2s and Concerto.


----------



## KingStyles

I am hoping that at my next meet that maybe the lcd-2 will click with me. It is not that I dont like them, it is more of I just havent fell in love with there sound yet or havent found them to be better than what I have. I think I just havent spent enough time with them to really appreciate there qualities.


----------



## RedBull

Quote: 





el_doug said:


> ...the Apache is op-amp based


 
   
  See, I told ya specs doesn't really matter!  
  Btw, how did you know Apache is an op-amp? I can't find this info on the RSA website.
  Do you also know whether Apache is an IC based op-amp or 'fully discrete' op-amp?
   
  Quote: 





sp wild said:


> I ran the LCD2s with the BCL as a technical benchmark for quite a while and thoroughly enjoyed the combo.  Before the LCD2s (and a lesser extent the D7000s)...I was starting to view solid states as inferior to tubes.  The LCD2s were the first headphone I owned that was able to exploit the full potential of the Lehmanns circuit speed.  Its a great amp for those that feel the LCD2s need an injection of a cooler signal, I personally felt that with some dacs, the Lehmann and LCD2s leaned on the cooler side on a lot of recordings for my preferences.
> 
> On another note, I had a Meir StageDac and Concerto at my desk with my other components...I felt the Concerto was a better amp than the StageDac as a dac.  The Concerto sounded more powerful and more organic than the Lehmann.  It also seems like a better engineered product overall than the Lehmann, therefore the value for money is much greater.  I wish I had more time with the Concerto, but I was constrained time.  I didn't hear any flaws with the LCD2s and Concerto.


 
   
  Finally someone has a comparison BCL vs Concerto with LCD-2.
   
  I really like BCL speed and effortless presentation.  It's a good compromise.
   
  What do you think of BCL vs Concerto in terms of mids detail (vocal breath, ambience, air), bass detail, treble (extension and body), SPEED (I like speed), depth, dynamics (ability to drive LCD-2).  Or, have you write somewhere else about this 2 comparison?
  BCL is so smooth for LCD-2, definitely less fatiguing compared to DV337 (for me).
   
  Thanks again SP Wild, you have convinced me before to buy LCD-2, I REALLLY LIKE IT, now you have a chance to convince me again to buy Concerto


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





redbull said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Sorry to disappoint, I only had the Concerto on my desktop for one night and only managed to squeeze in one song... I was only able to form a very general impression with no specifics.  If I get another more detailed audition with more time and direct AB, I will do so and report straight back.  What strikes me is that having seen the Asgard and Concerto in the flesh...they both look bigger in pictures, because in real life...they're the same size as the Lehmann amp...


----------



## RedBull

I'm dissapointed, nah, just kidding.  Thanks, yes please report when you can compare BCL, Asgard and Concerto, would be interesting  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Today I will try LCD-2 with local tube amp named Martin (something), I will post if it is of any good.


----------



## sokolov91

Quote: 





kingstyles said:


> I am hoping that at my next meet that maybe the lcd-2 will click with me. It is not that I dont like them, it is more of I just havent fell in love with there sound yet or havent found them to be better than what I have. I think I just havent spent enough time with them to really appreciate there qualities.


 

 Well no guarantee, but I know I loved mine from the first few tracks... but once I really heard them after some time and realized it was the first headphone where the impressive sound never stops to amaze me it really hit me just how friggen good they are - The imaging, the neutrality, the speed. Going back to other headphones, especially brighter ones just made me realize how wrong they made some songs sound and the lack of imaging really is a big thing in some cases.
   
  At least if they don't click with you, there are a number of other super good sounding alternatives.


----------



## RedBull

I too, were love at the first hear with LCD-2


----------



## kingice10

For Portable Amp Setup, can Meier Corda Stepdance or RSA SR71B cope up in terms of Sound Quantity with the high-end desktop amps?


----------



## K3cT

Quote: 





kingice10 said:


> For Portable Amp Setup, can Meier Corda Stepdance or RSA SR71B cope up in terms of Sound Quantity with the high-end desktop amps?


 


  It will sound "nice" but not "great".


----------



## gogogasgas

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *RedBull* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Headphone amplifier manufacturers with fully discrete designs advertise the fact 'front and centre' in their product information sheets and on their web sites. I don't think we will see 'Opamps used liberally' as a selling point any time soon. Granted, opmaps have a stigma attached to them and most people wouldn't know what the terms 'fully discrete' and 'opmaps' mean. Still, why plug 'fully discrete' unless it is an important and, arguably, desirable design attribute of an amp?


----------



## gogogasgas

Quote: 





zilch0md said:


> Apparently, all of Schiit's circuits are discrete:
> Quoting from http://schiit.com/schiit-faq/general-questions/:
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Currawong

Quote: 





gogogasgas said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> > I do like how the Phoenix opens up the soundstage to make the LCD-2s more Stax-like (except tonally) but while keeping the dynamic punch. That is possibly why the NFB-10 owners have had good luck too.
> ...


 
   
  It probably included the Audiovalve RKV in it too, as I posted three or so times in different threads. Try the first post of the HD-800 amp thread I started.
   
  I might be able to borrow the P-1 again to see how it goes with the LCD-2s. It's a coloured amp -- has very slightly emphasised, but great bass. The treble is less clean than the Phoenix, but only by a smidgen.  It does use a cheap alps pot, rather a shock in such an expensive amp. You are paying for the brand and everything that comes with it though.  The sound is typical Luxman though: Slight sweetness at the expense of absolute fidelity.  The Phoenix is rather the neutral-man's monitor amp, when you want to listen to your music and not listen to your gear. This doesn't work so well single-ended -- the colour of the Luxman works better in that respect IMO. But balanced, everything goes WIDE, even Grados with bowls.  I used it as an SE pre to a Parasound Zamp (their smallest, cheapest amp) to a pair of Paradigm Titans, and even then the difference between that and other gear I had on hand at the time was dramatic.  There are no questions speed, power or anything else, the music simply jumps out of nowhere.  The Luxman, on the other hand, is like a carefully crafted tube amp that makes everything sound good. It's rather like the trick of upping the saturation or gamma on a photo just a touch to make it feel warmer. The color to imagine is that of the front panel. It sounds like it looks in a manner of speaking.   If I wasn't in the process of rebuilding a Stacker I'd pick up a P-1u here second-hand as they have been going quite cheap.
   
  As for issues, I had a couple, due to the Alps rotary encoders and some (non-audio-signal) caps in the relay system being bad, but I owned one of the first ones and he has long since fixed those issues. Even though I know Kingwa considers the customer a priority (which is why I think he's a good guy) quite a few of us still bug him about ways he could do better.


----------



## gogogasgas

Currawong, that was brilliant - thanks! I know the sound of Luxman equipment well, so I understand exactly what you have said about the P-1 in comparison with the Phoenix. However, I want 'neutral' too so the Phoenix is appealing from that standpoint as well. I have even changed my mind about the possibilities of using either a Phoenix or Lyr as a preamp and running a set of quality powered monitors. BTW- how long have they been making the Phoenix (you say you got an early example)? Sounds like he has 'got the bugs out' of the design.


----------



## Currawong

Going by when I started the Phoenix thread it was a couple of years ago almost exactly. It was my casual question to Kingwa about a balanced headphone amp I think that resulted in it being designed in the first place. I remember it arrived just after my HD-800s did.


----------



## El_Doug

Relatively common knowledge, it's not like I have any kind of insider information  
  Uses chips
   

  
  Quote: 





redbull said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## K3cT

I wish more folks who are using Apex Peak/Volcano with their LCD2s can chime in here. Very interesting design they got there.


----------



## Skylab

In my home audition of the Apex P/V during Todd's loaner program, I thought is was outstanding with the LCD-2.


----------



## KevinR70

Quote: 





k3ct said:


> I wish more folks who are using Apex Peak/Volcano with their LCD2s can chime in here. Very interesting design they got there.


 


  I had the Peak/Volcano on hand for a couple of weeks.  I agree with what I've read already on the Peak that it has a slightly hot treble that can work well for the LCD-2 for those that think it is dark.  I actually like the treble of the LCD-2 so that's not an issue for me.  The Peak with it's emphasis in the treble region seems to help the soundstage of the LCD-2.  One thing that bothered me was the weight of the Peak.  It is very light, especially compared to my other high end gear.  The volcano power supply had some heft, but the peak was light, which honestly made me question the quality to a degree.  But those questions were put to rest once I got the amp set up and running.   It's a nice sounding amp that is worth considering if in the market for a new amp.  It is also very versatile and performed well on all headphones I tried, including the HE-6.    For those on a tighter budget I would take a look at the Violectric 200.  It held it's own against the Peak, although I did prefer the larger soundstage of the Peak with the LCD-2.  For the money, the 200 is hard to beat IMO.


----------



## Skylab

IMHO the bright treble you describe was not totally inherent to the P/V.  The supplied tube for the loaner program, the re-issue Russian Tung-Sol, is bright and thin sounding.  I know Todd has to supply a currently available tube, but that isn't a good sounding tube.  When I switched to a Mullard ECC32, the sound was MUCH better.  That said, the P/V does have a bit of a lively top end, even so.


----------



## K3cT

Quote: 





skylab said:


> In my home audition of the Apex P/V during Todd's loaner program, I thought is was outstanding with the LCD-2.


 
   

 You like the combination better than the Concerto I presume? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Looking forward to hear more from you. 

  
  Quote: 





kevinr70 said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

  
  Interesting... does this Vioelectric 200 employ a similar hybrid design as the P/V?


----------



## KevinR70

Quote: 





k3ct said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  No, it's SS.


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





k3ct said:


> You like the combination better than the Concerto I presume?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Yes, indeed, I thought the P/V was better with the LCD-2 than the Concerto.  The P/V has MOAR POWAR, which is a good thing for the LCD-2.  I would have bought the P/V, if I didn't have so many nice amps already


----------



## KevinR70

Quote: 





skylab said:


> IMHO the bright treble you describe was not totally inherent to the P/V.  The supplied tube for the loaner program, the re-issue Russian Tung-Sol, is bright and thin sounding.  I know Todd has to supply a currently available tube, but that isn't a good sounding tube.  When I switched to a Mullard ECC32, the sound was MUCH better.  That said, the P/V does have a bit of a lively top end, even so.


 


  I only tried two tubes with the Peak, the stock tung-sol and the shuguang treasure blackbottle CV181, the latter being much better IMO.  Based on my experience with Mullard ECC35's  in my Zana Deux,  I imagine the ECC32 would be a great match for the Peak.


----------



## Equus

Quote: 





kevinr70 said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


 Agreed.  I have the loaner right now and the Shuguang is better than the stock Tung-Sol...from what I recall (notes aren't in front of me) the Tung-Sol was definitely a little more hot/bright in the treble.  I have to write a review later on, but I would probably summarize my impressions by saying that the P/V had very clear and nice mids for vocals, lots of space and separation, and while it didn't sound to me to have the widest soundstage from left to right, the depth from front to back and the layering of that stage are excellent.  The only thing con to my ears is that the sound seems to be a little light or lean in the low mids and parts of the upper end of the bass, which is the part that I find to be the most emotionally engaging area usually.  It's not that it is not musical or engaging or whatever, it's just not as much as some other amps.  I also would highly recommend to get the Volcano with it and not to rely on the stock power supply.


----------



## RedBull

Quote: 





el_doug said:


> Relatively common knowledge, it's not like I have any kind of insider information
> Uses chips


 
   Thanks El_Doug, now I'm more convinced IC based, op-amp design can sound darn nice.
   
  Quote:


skylab said:


> Yes, indeed, I thought the P/V was better with the LCD-2 than the Concerto.  The P/V has MOAR POWAR, which is a good thing for the LCD-2.  I would have bought the P/V, if I didn't have so many nice amps already


 

 What is "MOAR POWAR", btw?


----------



## PFKMan23

more power....


----------



## K3cT

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

  
  Very nice! What amplifiers in your arsenal that you thought do a better job with the LCD2?
   
  P.S. Do you plan to write a full impression in the loaner thread? 


  Quote: 





kevinr70 said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


  So I presume you ended up with the V200 instead of the P/V? Aside from the price difference, are there any other factors that contribute to your decision?


----------



## rymd

Is there any amp at ~500 that pairs relatively well with LCD-2? I haven't noticed any amps in general at $500... it jumps from like 300-350 with schiit, matrix, glite, audiogd to $700-800 with meier, burson, agd, etc 
   
  I would get a concerto but I don't exactly have $200 extra ><


----------



## llama_egg

Possibly wait and see how the Schiit Lyr turns out? I know it's currently what I have my eye on, looks to be shaping up nicely, though we won't know for another month.


----------



## sachu

DIY a Cavalli Audio CTH


----------



## KevinR70

Quote: 





k3ct said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Yea, too many amps!  I already had the 200 and  a Zana Deux, and had been wanting a Leben 300 for a while.  I finally decided to pull the trigger on the Leben.    I sold the ZD and now just have the Leben and the 200.  I also like the fact that the 200 has balanced inputs so I can play the 200 and Leben off the same source so if two people are listening at the same time they have separate volume controls.


----------



## gogogasgas

*Violetric V200 info*. I got in touch with Lake People/Violetric to find out more info on the V200 and future offerings. Lakepeople's Fried Reim supplied the following information, which he has kindly allowed me to share with Head Fi.
   
_[size=medium]Are there Opamps in the signal path in the V200? Why do you use opamps in preference to other design decisions - Cost? Heat? Size? Convenience? Energy usage?[/size]_
 [size=medium]  [/size]
 [size=medium] [size=x-small]"Yes, the opamps are partly in the signal paths."[/size][/size]
 [size=medium] [size=x-small]"Every opamp consists of a large numer of transistors, resitors and even capacitors inside. There are losts of different opamp models according to their function. Most of them are doing a very good job.  [/size][size=small]Inside the opamp provisions are made to react to thermal challenges or ageing. [/size][size=small]So, why design discrete opamps when things can be that easy ... [/size][size=small]Also there are advantages concerning power consumption and costs!"[/size][/size]
 [size=medium]  [/size]
 [size=medium] _There are a number of Headfi posters (including me) wondering if you are planning a balanced design._[/size]
 [size=medium]  [/size]
 [size=medium] [size=x-small]"We have our balanced design called Violectric HPA V181. But this is only the starting point.
 We will release V281 with the amazing amps of V200 inside and perhaps V282 which will be an enhanced V281. Maybe there will be a V284 somewhen in the future"[/size][/size]


----------



## gogogasgas

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> Just a brief comment regarding amps in the class of the Concerto...
> 
> Real uncompressed music is far more dynamic than most people realize.  While half a watt is far more than one needs for steady state listening, it is easy to exceed even that power level on dynamic peaks, if one truly wants a "you are there" experience.  Amps used with the LCD-2 should be able to deliver at least a solid 2 Watts on those peaks if you truly want to experience that sense of effortless ease and expansiveness in your music.
> 
> Many people who listen to the LCD-2s on amps like a stock WA6, hear what they misinterpret as sibilance or other very minor transient distortions, and are actually hearing the amp clip, and not at exceedingly high levels either.  Of course YMMV, but that's been my experience and my 2¢ worth.


 
  I was just re-reading Kwkarth's comments. I think they are very important and valid when considering what amp to partner with the LCD-2s. Another sign that an amp is struggling, both on peaks and during complex/busy passages of music, is the music becomes compressed and begins sound like a cheap AM radio. Other terms like 'greyness', 'veiling', 'muddied', 'muddled' and 'blurred' can also be signs that your amp is struggling at normal (moderate to moderately high) playback levels. As Kwkath states, peaks in music can really test an amp's ability to rise to the occasion. While 'MOAR POWAR' isn't the be-all-end-all solution, having those extra watts backed by a fulsome supply of current should be considered strong attributes when selecting the 'right' amp for the LCD-2s. Those 6 watts RMS per channel from the upcoming Schiit hybrid come to mind...


----------



## sachu

MOAR powar might be well and good..but when it comes down to it, the quality of that power counts too..and this is where i would think the schitt will be a big letdown just like the asgard..sure you can say "But for the price?!!!". YOu get what you pay for eventually. 
  BUt heck..they could prove me wrong.


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





k3ct said:


> Very nice! What amplifiers in your arsenal that you thought do a better job with the LCD2?
> 
> P.S. Do you plan to write a full impression in the loaner thread?


 
   
  I did write a full review of the P/V in the impressions thread.
   
  I preferred the LCD-2 with the LebenCS300XS over the P/V, and I also prefer the Decware Mini-Torii.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





sachu said:


> MOAR powar might be well and good..but when it comes down to it, the quality of that power counts too..and this is where i would think the schitt will be a big letdown just like the asgard..sure you can say "But for the price?!!!". YOu get what you pay for eventually.
> BUt heck..they could prove me wrong.


 
   
  I really don't understand the true nature of your comments.  What attribute of the Asgard do you find objectionable?


----------



## sachu

Dry, analytical midrange, lacking resolution, rolled off highs, no depth in the imaging..but for the pirce ..yeah its a decent amp.


----------



## gogogasgas

Kwkarth - have you tried the Schiit Valhalla? I would also like to know your thoughts, or first hand impressions of the Audio GD Phoenix.


----------



## Currawong

The Valhalla was designed for high-impedance cans IIRC (it's OTL) and I recall them suggesting against using it with orthos.
   
  I second Sachu, from my brief listening. It doesn't wake up the LCD-2s at all.  Maybe it would would sound ok with a brighter source than was used when I tried it.


----------



## sokolov91

Quote: 





sachu said:


> Dry, analytical midrange, lacking resolution, rolled off highs, no depth in the imaging..but for the pirce ..yeah its a decent amp.


 


  He means if it is not esoteric and/or DIY it doesn't sound good.


----------



## sachu

and i thought no one ever understood me here...


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





sachu said:


> Dry, analytical midrange, lacking resolution, rolled off highs, no depth in the imaging..but for the pirce ..yeah its a decent amp.


 


  We hear completely different things from this amp.  How much time have you spent with one?


----------



## sachu

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I am quite sure that we do hear differently Kevin ..so anyways, I Suggested it to a friend a few months back and he let me hang on to it a week after he was done with the new toy syndrome. He is however plenty happy with the sound and uses it in his office. As for me...i wouldn't use that amp even if someone offered it to me for 100$ cause i'll never use it for anything other than perhaps a space heater or foot warmer.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





gogogasgas said:


> Kwkarth - have you tried the Schiit Valhalla? I would also like to know your thoughts, or first hand impressions of the Audio GD Phoenix.


 
  I have not.  I decided to wait for the Lyr and I was very pleased with the Asgard.  No rolled off highs, very solid extended and defined bass, liquid mids and highs with no distortion so it might sound like it lacks in hf if your ear is not discriminating enough, or your up stream equipment is lacking.  If the Lyr sounds this good but has more poser it will be a real winner!


----------



## sokolov91

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


  Why limiting yourself to only Schiit (no pun intended)?


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





sokolov91 said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


  I'm not at all.  I did spend a great deal of time with many of the finest amps available and decided with the right source gear, the Asgard does a better job than it has any right to...  Why spend more for less?


----------



## sokolov91

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Good point haha. Although I am sure upgradeitis will strike you at one point or another... no one seems to escape it here.


----------



## gogogasgas

kwkarth said:


> gogogasgas said:
> 
> 
> > Kwkarth - have you tried the Schiit Valhalla? I would also like to know your thoughts, or first hand impressions of the Audio GD Phoenix.
> ...


 


kwkarth said:


> sokolov91 said:
> 
> 
> > Why limiting yourself to only Schiit (no pun intended)?
> ...


 
   
  It sounds like Kwkarth is describing the classic hallmarks of a Class A solid state amp. Although I haven't heard the Asgard, I have heard quality Class A amps before. There is a liquid, as opposed to smooth, sonic signature and a grip on the bass region that seems to go with the breed. What might happening is an interaction of the Asgard with other units in the audio chain that some posters are attributing directly to the Asgard. If so, then the Asgard could be system dependent.


----------



## Currawong

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


 What was the rest of the system?


----------



## llama_egg

I currently got my eye on the Lyr, it seems like an amazing bang-for-it's-buck unit, but I'm still waiting for next month when people start receiving theirs to see opinions of the thing.
   
  But speaking of the same price range, has anyone tried the LCD-2's with Bottlehead's S.E.X. amp? It's basically the same price and would probably be a fun little project, but I'm not sure how well it would pair with the 'phones. Thinking of possible going the S.E.X. route if it's a good match and the Lyr ends up being a flop.
   
  Either way, I get to say that my amp is a piece of Schitt, or is amazing S.E.X. Can't loose either way! (And no, I don't buy products based off the name 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





)


----------



## BebopMcJiggy

http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,1477.0.html

 "We tried SEX with the LCD-2 and it was OK but the bass was soft."


----------



## sokolov91

FWIW if people REALLY want that 6 watts the Audio GD C-2 SA puts out 6 watts at 50 ohms fully discrete class A for about 100$ less (before shipping) than the Lyr IIRC


----------



## Equus

Quote: 





bebopmcjiggy said:


> http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,1477.0.html
> 
> "We tried SEX with the LCD-2 and it was OK but the bass was soft."


 

 Yup...if I remember right Doc B tried the LCD-2's on almost all of the amps he had sitting around at Bottlehead, and he didn't really care for any of them.  As he mentions in the post linked, he did like the punchiness on curbfeeler's system, which I think may be a Benchmark DAC1 PRE.  I think he listened to the Stacker and didn't find it punchy enough, but I can't remember if he listened to the with the 6CG7 tubes.  That being said, both our systems sounded to "digital" for his taste too.


----------



## BebopMcJiggy

Quote: 





sokolov91 said:


> FWIW if people REALLY want that 6 watts the Audio GD C-2 SA puts out 6 watts at 50 ohms fully discrete class A for about 100$ less (before shipping) than the Lyr IIRC


 

  
  I doubt it is class A with any real load when the normal C-2.1 is 1 watt, has Class A plastered everywhere on the page and on the price page the C-2.1 (not SA) above it and phoenix below it prominently show off their Class A status.  Also the power consumption is only 2 watts above the 1 watt Class A 2.1... which doesn't point to higher powered class A operation at all.  Not that it is a bad amp or anything, I don't really know, just not quite as good as you are advertising.
   
  The C-2.1 actually seems to have specifications (class A operation / power output wise anyhow) similar to the Asgard which is 100$ cheaper than it.  Except schiit displays the output as 20Vp-p which into 50 ohms is about 1w assuming no current problems and they display the output level as 10vrms which is about 28Vp-p but they show 1w into 62 ohms so there is some current limit imposed.  I've no idea what the actual output of the asgard is into 50 ohms.  For argument's sake a balanced b22 can do around 80Vp-p into 50 ohms which is just shy of 16 watts.
   
  Edit: sorry ;p I was looking at maybe trying one, but passed for now after looking further into the subject.  That said I probably ultimately won't bother with the lyr either...


----------



## gogogasgas

Why don't we let Kingwa tell us what the Audio GD 'Phoenix' puts out into a pair of LCD-2s?
   
I asked: "I want to use the Phoenix with a pair of Audeze LCD-2s headphones.  I think these are rated at 50 Ohms. What RMS figure per channel would the Phoenix be capable of putting into the LCD-2s?
   
  Kingwa replied: At 50 ohm, it can output around 2300MW.
   
  That's pretty good, and remember, those are RMS, 'Class A' figures which, from my experience with regular class 'A' stereo amps, are 'bigger' and cleaner/clearer than 'garden variety' watts.
   
   Has anyone who is running the Phoenix with a pair of LCD-2s noticed it running out of puff? Any signs of compression, distortion or colourations at moderately high volumes?

   
  The new Shiit Hybrid will probably put out a fair bit more into 50 ohms. It won't be offering balanced connections and lacks the overall versatility of the Phoenix, but it is many clams cheaper.
   
  PS On the AMB audio site (where in the B22 is), it says to watch out for inferior Chinese clones of the B22. What amp are they referring to? Also, I can't see on the website if they offer a pre-made version of the B22 for we no-way-DIY-ers.


----------



## Currawong

Nothing of that sort with the Phoenix, even with my usual brutal test of this kind of thing with Shpongle. I don't listen very loud though, usually around 70-80dB with a rough measurement.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





currawong said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Flac files on my MACs feeding a MH25.2 DAC with GE smoked glass 6922 feeding the Asgard, feeding the LCD-2.  The 25.2 has been tweaked a bit by me.  All connections treated with CAIG G5 and Pro Gold.  Interconnects are Outlaw UPOCC PCH 0.5m.  LCD-2 cable, cotton insulated & braided 2 x 156 strand per channel litz.


----------



## epocs

What's with all these headphone amp names these days? "Yesterday I had the greatest SEX... bottlehead experience with my cans." ; "Schiit man... that's really the stuff to compare against the Hat Peed Thingy."
   
  Makes me appreciate names like Benchmark or Nuforce.


----------



## sokolov91

Quote: 





gogogasgas said:


> Why don't we let Kingwa tell us what the Audio GD 'Phoenix' puts out into a pair of LCD-2s?
> 
> I asked: "I want to use the Phoenix with a pair of Audeze LCD-2s headphones.  I think these are rated at 50 Ohms. What RMS figure per channel would the Phoenix be capable of putting into the LCD-2s?
> 
> ...


 

  
  Like Amos said there really is no running out of juice with the phoenix... I use MAX 20/99 with my balanced LCD-2 via ref - 7... very dynamic and superb detail. Really brings the LCD-2 to life IMO.
   
  If you want something really "high end" the Phoenix really does have all the bells and whistles... class A, no negative feedback, fully discrete, perfectly matched volume with 99 steps... any connection you could ever need... not to mention it looks stunning and very substantial on a desk.
   
  that being said I am sure the Lyr would make you a happy man. Remember the Lyr stops being class A quite a ways before 6 watts. I don't remember exactly what the figures were but pure class A at 2.3 watts might even be better in terms of pure class A power.

  
  Quote: 





currawong said:


> Nothing of that sort with the Phoenix, even with my usual brutal test of this kind of thing with Shpongle. I don't listen very loud though, usually around 70-80dB with a rough measurement.


 
  x2
   
  Shpongle and the LCD-2/Phoenix combo really are a match made in heaven. The textured work and crazy amount of layers really shine through very clearly.


----------



## llama_egg

Shame, sounded like a fun project and was right up my price range. Oh well, gotta keep my eyes open for a while yet it seems!
  
  Quote: 





equus said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## gogogasgas

Shpondle is a good test for any rig. From world, to trance, to doof, to etc - it's a full audio workout.
   
  Really, Currawong and Sokolov91 sum-up why Phoenix seems in a class of it's own. The only other off-the-shelf headamp that might give it a run is the Schiit Lyr when it comes out in March.


----------



## nigeljames

Quote: 





gogogasgas said:


> Why don't we let Kingwa tell us what the Audio GD 'Phoenix' puts out into a pair of LCD-2s?
> 
> I asked: "I want to use the Phoenix with a pair of Audeze LCD-2s headphones.  I think these are rated at 50 Ohms. What RMS figure per channel would the Phoenix be capable of putting into the LCD-2s?
> 
> ...


 

 The Roc absolutely does not 'run out of puff' driving the LCD2's so I can not imagine the Phoenix having any problems.


----------



## Currawong

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> Flac files on my MACs feeding a MH25.2 DAC with GE smoked glass 6922 feeding the Asgard, feeding the LCD-2.  The 25.2 has been tweaked a bit by me.  All connections treated with CAIG G5 and Pro Gold.  Interconnects are Outlaw UPOCC PCH 0.5m.  LCD-2 cable, cotton insulated & braided 2 x 156 strand per channel litz.


 

 Thanks. Reminds me I've been meaning to get some IC treatment fluid for a while and possibly some Silclear.
   


  Quote: 





epocs said:


> What's with all these headphone amp names these days? "Yesterday I had the greatest SEX... bottlehead experience with my cans." ; "Schiit man... that's really the stuff to compare against the Hat Peed Thingy."
> 
> Makes me appreciate names like Benchmark or Nuforce.


 

 This is going in my sig.
   


  Quote: 





sokolov91 said:


> Shpongle and the LCD-2/Phoenix combo really are a match made in heaven. The textured work and crazy amount of layers really shine through very clearly.


 

 I just watched Inception again, which was rather trippy with the detail of every noise and the fantastic soundtrack.


----------



## BebopMcJiggy

Quote: 





gogogasgas said:


> PS On the AMB audio site (where in the B22 is), it says to watch out for inferior Chinese clones of the B22. What amp are they referring to? Also, I can't see on the website if they offer a pre-made version of the B22 for we no-way-DIY-ers.


 


  What they mean is there are some chinese pcbs that are clones of the schematic, only laid out worse than the original PCB I think.  I don't know what they would be advertised as, probably also a B22 since I suppose technically they are the same circuit.  I think he spent a lot of time on the layout of signal paths and whatnot.  I think I have seen one using almost all SMD devices instead of thru hole, which is interesting I suppose.  Perhaps it could fit into a smaller area but I couldn't really tell from the pictures that I saw.  This would not be an issue if you are paying one of their listed professional builders to make one, only if you acquired the PCBs yourself to make one from a source other than AMB.
   
  AMB does not sell finished B22s but they do provide links to http://www.rockhopperaudio.com/ and http://www.ybmaudio.com/ if you want a professionally made B22, potentially to your own specifications.  It would probably be significantly more expensive than a phoenix for a balanced build though.
   
  I belive the lyr stops being class A around 500mw (or so I was told), I'm not sure what the phoenix is biased to maintain class A operation to.  It's possible it covers its whole output range as 3W max is not that much.  However I have my doubts due to the fact that it doesn't look like anything is using the case as a heat sink, the heat sinks inside are not massive and there appears to be poor ventilation.  Also I can't see the purpose of people biasing it further into class A if it already covers the whole range that it can output.  I can't be certain about this you would probably be best off asking Kingwa if you care enough.


----------



## gogogasgas

nigeljames said:


> The Roc absolutely does not 'run out of puff' driving the LCD2's so I can not imagine the Phoenix having any problems.


 
   
  Thanks, NJ. I forgot that Audio GD have a number of other models. Good to know that the Roc does well with the LCD-2s too.
  


bebopmcjiggy said:


> I belive the lyr stops being class A around 500mw (or so I was told), I'm not sure what the phoenix is biased to maintain class A operation to.  It's possible it covers its whole output range as 3W max is not that much.  However I have my doubts due to the fact that it doesn't look like anything is using the case as a heat sink, the heat sinks inside are not massive and there appears to be poor ventilation.  Also I can't see the purpose of people biasing it further into class A if it already covers the whole range that it can output.  I can't be certain about this you would probably be best off asking Kingwa if you care enough.


 
  I think that you are right about the B22 being less of a good deal if you pay someone else to build it, especially in comparison to the GD Audio offerings. Shame, by all reports, its a great headphone amp.
   
  As for when the Phoenix would stop being Class A, I don't know. Might ask Kingwa.


----------



## sokolov91

Quote: 





currawong said:


> snip
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


 

 Inception is one of the (very) few blu-rays I own and I was blown away too.


----------



## BebopMcJiggy

Why was the dude they were attempting to perform inception on still young when they found him on the balcony?!  This has always bothered me.  He died way before the asian guy :O


----------



## JIGF

Quote: 





bebopmcjiggy said:


> Why was the dude they were attempting to perform inception on still young when they found him on the balcony?!  This has always bothered me.  He died way before the asian guy :O


 
   
  If you see the movie detailing every part of the story there are many parts that seem incongruent, like the part you mentioned, but what can you expect from a movie about getting into someone's dreams. Perhaps you can find some info here.


----------



## wild4sound

I tried a Doge 6210 valve amp to see how if it could drive the Audeze lcd2.
  It is a stock unit taken from storage, the tubes have been rolled for Siemens matched pairs.
  It is basically an el84 output transformer coupled amp.
   
  Signal coming from a Ref 1 dspv5 via Xindac FA gold rca interconnect.
  Stock se cable to the Audeze. 
   
  I was surprised how well it did compared to the Phoenix all balanced setup and Zeus 22g furutec balanced cable .
   
  The sound was wide open with superb PRAT . Bass had slam and treble great.
  The soundstage was wide and inner detail very clear.
   
  Price wise it has no right to sound this good. It is easily as good as the Phoenix but without the black background. 
  Set to 30 Ohm output I can dial up to 9 o'clock to get pretty loud enough. 
  I am stumped as to why so good , maybe the Audeze is just that good, well I speculate. 
  Low level clarity and punch make for effortless listening .
  I think this one goes to the bedroom rig.


----------



## gogogasgas

I haven't heard of the 'Doge' before so I checked it out - click HERE.


----------



## JIGF

Interesting. I like it has pre out.


----------



## Skylab

That amp was super-popular in some circles several years ago around here. Unfortunately it had a super-aggressive poster who was constantly hyping it, but had some ties to the importer, IIRC. But that doesn't mean it isn't a good amp


----------



## wild4sound

Quote: 





skylab said:


> That amp was super-popular in some circles several years ago around here. Unfortunately it had a super-aggressive poster who was constantly hyping it, but had some ties to the importer, IIRC. But that doesn't mean it isn't a good amp


 


  Right you are Skylab, read and lived through that saga and nearly turned me away from Headfi . Still bought one to experiment though, and love it with the Beyer T1. The parent company makes reasonable stuff, I enjoyed your comments on the tube rolling for the doge 6 preamp and tried it , spot on. Somehow tubes died for me but this synergy sparks a thought. 
  Maybe I should give tubes another chance but it is a TABOO subject in our 44 degree heat.
   
  There is some talk about using this cheap amp as a platform to mod , change the 12ax7 and other bits and pieces . Still there is great tone and energy in the music despite being dirt cheap and getting past prejudice. 
   
  Another Amp I tried for the hell of it is the BADA PH12 hybrid using Sylvania 6sn7 wgt / Sylvania 6sn7 gt X2  with the the Audeze.  More than enough power and unbearably loud at 9o'clock but no finesse, narrow soundstage and smudgy image. No comparison to the Doge re musicality and expansive stage.
   
  Dont know how others feel but it seems to me that if you have a quality source and good recordings, getting great sound from the Audeze does not have to be too dear.


----------



## AustinHorn

FYI - I have a Doge 6210SE (it was my 1st tube amp & I had it for a couple of years before I ever discovered HeadFi). I love it. I use it as a pre on my office/shop system & it is a beautiful match for both my HE5LE & the LCD-2. I prefer it with both to my maxxed Woo6 'cause it sounds just as good & has more features, more power & headroom + it is a preamp too. Very warm tone (a big plus to my ear) with the LCD-2 using my Marantz DV9500 as a source playing some SACDs the sound is about as good as it gets!  No rolled off lows or highs like I've noticed with some of my other tube amps. Once I get a balanced SAA cable for my LCD-2, I may find the Phoenix preferable, but right now when I want to relax & really enjoy a favorite CD, I go to the Doge.  Still I do a lot of my listening with my new DACmini, & it too is an excellent match with the LCD-2 & is my preferred ss amp now with all my harder to drive headphones. I find it sounds pretty tube-like too, but more like some high end hybrid amps I've heard.
   
  One thing I really like about the Doge is that you can use it with both headphones & speakers at the same time if you choose.  Most of my other headphone amps cut out the speakers if a headphone is attached. I fined that very useful since I work on broken/damaged speakers & can use my headphones to help me compare speakers I'm working on.
   
  I read some of the stuff that went on back in the day (after the fact) concerning the Bada & Doge amp recommendations & hope one bad apple won't keep someone from trying out what I've found to be a very nice sounding tube amp & one that will drive my 600 ohm Beyer 880 headphones nicely as well as both my Orthos. Given some of the low prices I've seen the Doge 6210 & 6210SE sell for on AudiogoN, they may be one of the best used buys I've seen recently.  2 big thumbs up!


----------



## oqvist

Quote: 





austinhorn said:


> One thing I really like about the Doge is that you can use it with both headphones & speakers at the same time if you choose.  Most of my other headphone amps cut out the speakers if a headphone is attached. I fined that very useful since I work on broken/damaged speakers & can use my headphones to help me compare speakers I'm working on.


 


  Nice. Always wished my Head One had that feature so I could use the sub out to connect to my buttkicker or sub at the same time as using it for my headphones. Instead of having to use one headphone amp for my headphones and one for my buttkicker


----------



## wild4sound

I made a mistake in my earlier post , set impedance to 60 ohm setting . 
  AustinHorn, glad we share an affection for this pairing . Do you know the difference between 6210 and SE version. What tubes are you using .
  
  Quote: 





austinhorn said:


> FYI - I have a Doge 6210SE (it was my 1st tube amp & I had it for a couple of years before I ever discovered HeadFi). I love it. I use it as a pre on my office/shop system & it is a beautiful match for both my HE5LE & the LCD-2. I prefer it with both to my maxxed Woo6 'cause it sounds just as good & has more features, more power & headroom + it is a preamp too. Very warm tone (a big plus to my ear) with the LCD-2 using my Marantz DV9500 as a source playing some SACDs the sound is about as good as it gets!  No rolled off lows or highs like I've noticed with some of my other tube amps. Once I get a balanced SAA cable for my LCD-2, I may find the Phoenix preferable, but right now when I want to relax & really enjoy a favorite CD, I go to the Doge.  Still I do a lot of my listening with my new DACmini, & it too is an excellent match with the LCD-2 & is my preferred ss amp now with all my harder to drive headphones. I find it sounds pretty tube-like too, but more like some high end hybrid amps I've heard.
> 
> One thing I really like about the Doge is that you can use it with both headphones & speakers at the same time if you choose.  Most of my other headphone amps cut out the speakers if a headphone is attached. I fined that very useful since I work on broken/damaged speakers & can use my headphones to help me compare speakers I'm working on.
> 
> I read some of the stuff that went on back in the day (after the fact) concerning the Bada & Doge amp recommendations & hope one bad apple won't keep someone from trying out what I've found to be a very nice sounding tube amp & one that will drive my 600 ohm Beyer 880 headphones nicely as well as both my Orthos. Given some of the low prices I've seen the Doge 6210 & 6210SE sell for on AudiogoN, they may be one of the best used buys I've seen recently.  2 big thumbs up!


----------



## Skylab

That whole silliness surrounding the Doge is ancient history, and should not prevent anyone from trying it.  I hope to hear one someday - it uses a tube combo (6BQ5/EL84 + 12AX7/ECC83) that I like a lot from other amps that have used it.


----------



## Frank I

Pacific Valves is selling them for 600.00 shipped it looks kind of cool looking and is pint to point. I would think if they are still carrying that amp its pretty good as they get rid of ones that do not sell well rapidly.


----------



## AustinHorn

I'm out at the lake for the weekend for a Super Bowl party so I don't have ready access to the Doge/tubes but for everyday use when I'm working on speakers, I run Full Musics in it (EL84a, 12au7s for headphones, 12AX7s for speakers) but for serious listening I've rolled a ton of NOS tubes through it (it is a tube rollers dream since there are lots of options with EL84/12**7 series. W/O having the tubes in front of me I can't really say what brand combos I liked best but I will certainly look when I get back to the house. (Sorry, I have a bunch of amps & tubes & my memory isn't what it once was).
   
  As to the differences between the Doge 6210 vs SE, I can't really tell you.  At the recommendation from my best friend, I bought mine locally used for $250 off of Craigslist & the users guide was in Chinese. I tried to get an English version from both a US distributor & Chinese but neither would provide it since I didn't buy it from them. It is so simple to use, I just gave up. Anyway,  I too would like to know what the difference, if any, is too. I just know I like mine a lot.
   
  As I said, it was my 1st tube amp & as I've acquired more & more tube amps to compare it to, I've become even more impressed with it & have always wondered why it seemed so ignored here on HF. Then I read some of what went on & just assumed guilt by association. Over time, a lot of other highly touted amps have come & gone to/from my house, but I've kept my old Doge.  That speaks volumes for my opinion of it. I've thought seriously about getting a second one for here at the lake since I find myself spending more & more time out here & could actually do more relaxed listening here than back at home.
   
   
   
  Quote: 





wild4sound said:


> I made a mistake in my earlier post , set impedance to 60 ohm setting .
> AustinHorn, glad we share an affection for this pairing . Do you know the difference between 6210 and SE version. What tubes are you using .
> 
> Quote:
> ...


----------



## brasewel

Has anyone paired the LCD-2 with a Meier Corda Opera with or without DAC?


----------



## ex0du5

Any thoughts on the Concerto + StageDAC combo? I'm looking at my options for when I get the LCD-2, and this one stands out to me.
   
  I'm only considering SS amps.


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





ex0du5 said:


> Any thoughts on the Concerto + StageDAC combo? I'm looking at my options for when I get the LCD-2, and this one stands out to me.
> 
> I'm only considering SS amps.


 

 I'm looking into combo as well


----------



## ex0du5

The Concerto is no longer available in black.


----------



## soundaddicted

Quote: 





brasewel said:


> I'm looking into combo as well


 

 If you guys are looking for a SS combo, i recommend the HA-160D (Dac/Amp/preamp). It drives the Audeze perfectly.


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





brasewel said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


  I can confirm that the Concerto/LCD-2 combination is a winner in my books.


----------



## brasewel

Well I just bought the concerto/stagedac combo. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 cant wait to listen through them


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





brasewel said:


> Well I just bought the concerto/stagedac combo.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


  Nice! You should be very impressed.


----------



## BrianMendoza

Quote:


ex0du5 said:


> The Concerto is no longer available in black.


 

 I just bought PeckingDuck's Black Concerto. I've been running it non stop for the last three days and couldn't be happier with it!


----------



## Solude

Not heard their gear but the Burson is all discrete.  They don't do themselves any favours referring to their discrete amp module as an opamp.  Lots of people use opamp and ic interchangably which is where the confusion comes in.  Burson makes discrete amps that they use in their gear and sell in socketable versions to other manufacturers.  Confusing PR but at the end of the day... all discrete, no ic design.
   
  And while discrete doesn't equal great sounding, I've never come across an ic based design that could compete with great sounding discrete designs.  I liked the Concerto with all the cans I tried it with but the B22 clearly has better control down low.  Back when it was the Gilmore vs Meta42/PPA, same result.  Great discrete designs just sound more effortless and have better overall control in my experience.
   
  That said anyone gotten a chance to hear the Burson 160D or another planar friendly DAC/Amp that can compete with my current separates?  Would love to free up some desk space


----------



## Red Jacket Mike

Quote: 





brasewel said:


> Well I just bought the concerto/stagedac combo.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I have had them both for a little over a week, now, and I love them with the LCD-2s.  Lots of power, lots of features, great sound.  The amp is a tiny bit on the bright side of neutral to my ears, which is perfect for the LCD-2s.  
   
  Mine took exactly 3 weeks to arrive here in Northern Michigan; customs opened the boxes, but repacked everything carefully.  Also included with mine were 2 6 foot 14 gauge AC cords, a nice quality 6 foot toslink cable, and a USB A/B cable.  Well written instruction manuals, too.


----------



## K3cT

Quote: 





solude said:


> Not heard their gear but the Burson is all discrete.  They don't do themselves any favours referring to their discrete amp module as an opamp.  Lots of people use opamp and ic interchangably which is where the confusion comes in.  Burson makes discrete amps that they use in their gear and sell in socketable versions to other manufacturers.  Confusing PR but at the end of the day... all discrete, no ic design.
> 
> And while discrete doesn't equal great sounding, I've never come across an ic based design that could compete with great sounding discrete designs.  I liked the Concerto with all the cans I tried it with but the B22 clearly has better control down low.  Back when it was the Gilmore vs Meta42/PPA, same result.  Great discrete designs just sound more effortless and have better overall control in my experience.
> 
> That said anyone gotten a chance to hear the Burson 160D or another planar friendly DAC/Amp that can compete with my current separates?  Would love to free up some desk space


 
   
  I was under the impression that the Burson amplifier (HA160) is not a true discrete design like the Beta22 or Dynalo or CKKIII. It still sounds pretty darned good to my ears though. 
   
  I've heard the HA160D. The amplifier section is great but the DAC section is very meh, a fact which is also confirmed by several people in a local meet. You might as well wait for the Gilmore X2 as I've yet to hear a HeadAmp product that sounds bad.


----------



## BebopMcJiggy

I've been fairly impressed with this nonsense... 
  Also the attenuator costs more than everything else combined  but it was what I had readily available.  Gonna move it elsewhere when I turn this into a pre-amp...  Not quite as good as the b22... but I think it cost <300 minus the attenuator.  Also was impressed with the EHHA when I had it running but I have been a lazy bum and it is out of commission at the moment.  Got a bunch of telefunken 6gm8s sitting in a drawer but oh well 
   
  I'm not sure how much power it can put out at the moment but I think a single ended version can put out 3w into 33ohm or so.  Gain is set to 2 but my source has relatively high output voltage.  I've got the quiescent current set at ~50ma or so.


----------



## Solude

Quote: 





k3ct said:


> I've heard the HA160D. The amplifier section is great but the DAC section is very meh, a fact which is also confirmed by several people in a local meet.


 


  Confirmed again today that on Win7 it doesn't see more than 16/48 so its a no go for me


----------



## sokolov91

Quote: 





bebopmcjiggy said:


> I've been fairly impressed with this nonsense...
> Also the attenuator costs more than everything else combined  but it was what I had readily available.  Gonna move it elsewhere when I turn this into a pre-amp...  Not quite as good as the b22... but I think it cost <300 minus the attenuator.  Also was impressed with the EHHA when I had it running but I have been a lazy bum and it is out of commission at the moment.  Got a bunch of telefunken 6gm8s sitting in a drawer but oh well
> 
> I'm not sure how much power it can put out at the moment but I think a single ended version can put out 3w into 33ohm or so.  Gain is set to 2 but my source has relatively high output voltage.  I've got the quiescent current set at ~50ma or so.


 

 Holy crap... how many steps does that offer you and what did it run you?


----------



## sachu

Quote: 





bebopmcjiggy said:


> I've been fairly impressed with this nonsense...
> Also was impressed with the EHHA when I had it running but I have been a lazy bum and it is out of commission at the moment.  Got a bunch of telefunken 6gm8s sitting in a drawer but oh well


 

 aww..that's weak sauce buddy...haul ass and get that EHHA going again. Its about as good as it gets in the DIY world for me for the LCD-2s. ANd with the teles they should totally rock. THrow in BJT outputs on it..just saying


----------



## BebopMcJiggy

Quote: 





sachu said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Working on it  I ordered the parts to make a few heater supplies this week so shouldn't be much longer now...


----------



## BebopMcJiggy

Quote: 





sokolov91 said:


> Holy crap... how many steps does that offer you and what did it run you?


 


http://www.khozmo.com/products_dale_ladder.html it's 48 steps was just trying one out.  It's actually supposed to go in that EHHA I mentioned but since I don't have the heater supplies ready and what I intend to use for this later is not yet available, I just used it here for the time being.


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





red jacket mike said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I got mine used for a fellow head-fier. I will just be receiving the amp and dac without any of the additional accessories. Would have liked to get the toslink cable, oh well I got the combo for a good deal.


----------



## sokolov91

Quote: 





bebopmcjiggy said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


  Ty for the link.
   
  Not as many steps as I thought though ahaha. Oh well looks like a great stepped attenuator.


----------



## Currawong

Reminds me that I need to re-construct Agent Orange, which is in pieces on my desk at the moment.


----------



## sachu

Quote: 





currawong said:


> Reminds me that I need to re-construct Agent Orange, which is in pieces on my desk at the moment.


 


  sadness..let me know if you want to let it go..that is my dream office rig amp.


----------



## Currawong

Will do, but I have Stacker II parts from dbel84 here, so it shall live again, but constructed in a better manner, at least once I find a good box for it.


----------



## K3cT

Quote: 





bebopmcjiggy said:


> I've been fairly impressed with this nonsense...
> Also the attenuator costs more than everything else combined  but it was what I had readily available.  Gonna move it elsewhere when I turn this into a pre-amp...  Not quite as good as the b22... but I think it cost <300 minus the attenuator.  Also was impressed with the EHHA when I had it running but I have been a lazy bum and it is out of commission at the moment.  Got a bunch of telefunken 6gm8s sitting in a drawer but oh well
> 
> I'm not sure how much power it can put out at the moment but I think a single ended version can put out 3w into 33ohm or so.  Gain is set to 2 but my source has relatively high output voltage.  I've got the quiescent current set at ~50ma or so.


 

  
  Can you tell me more how it sounds like? I initially wanted to build a compact amplifier using those in the same chassis as γ2 but the σ22 is really huge compared to the rest of the components... 
   
   
  Quote: 





solude said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

  
  Are you sure? I can set the bit-rate to 24/96 no problem in my Foobar W7 but I didn't test it with 24-bit tracks admittedly.


----------



## grokit

There are two different USB thingamajiggies (receiver chips/modules?) for the 160D, Burson is replacing the ones that don't handle the higher bitrates properly. More at LeePerry's 160D thread.


----------



## Solude

Thanks for that.  Can you post a shot of your Win7 audio control panel?  If it supports it you will have it as an option for preferred rate... last tab.  I feed my Stello 24/44 since I want the dither but don't want Win7 trying to resample   Last time I played with Foobar it let you chose pretty much any depth whether the card supported it or not, was a while back though.


----------



## Solude

Found the thread and the corresponding shots of control panels.  Good to know its "fixed" sucks that it a hardware swap and not a simply firmware upgrade.  But all that matters is come word that I still have a job April 1st, incoming Burson =)


----------



## Vitor Teixeira

Hey there,
   
  Been using W4S Dac2 - M^3 with the LCD-2, but would like to try it with another SS amp ( SE and Balanced)
  I've read a few pages of this thread and it seems there are some concensus on the Concerto; Burson, Violetric and Leben (way out of budget i'm afraid), did i miss others?
  Thanks.


----------



## kwkarth

I think the consensus I see is that all the components in the chain must be matched synergistically for best results.
   
  WRT preferring one amp over another, outside of the objective technical capabilities/needs are met, it often comes back to an issue of personal preference, considering many subjective factors.


----------



## Vitor Teixeira

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> I think the consensus I see is that all the components in the chain must be matched synergistically for best results.
> 
> WRT preferring one amp over another, outside of the objective technical capabilities/needs are met, it often comes back to an issue of personal preference, considering many subjective factors.


 

 So, synergistically, anybody has the W4S? And if so, what amp do you use with it?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

I'm finding the CEntrance DACmini is a very good choice for the LCD-2, and it's become my favorite amp to pair with the LCD-2 so far (no balanced cable for SR-71b yet).


----------



## AustinHorn

I totally agree with your statement. I too am going to obtain a balanced cable for my LCD-2 so I can listen to it on my Phoenix, but right now I don't have another amp that pairs so well as does my DACmini with my LCD-2.  I now find that I atomatically reack for my LCD-2 & turn on my DACmini when I sit down at my PC. Up until I got the LCD-2, I almost always hooked up the Phoenix to my HDR dac via balanced cables & pulled out my HE5LEs, Beyer 880 600 ohms, or my HD650s all with SSA balanced cables.  So to prefer a stock cabled SE  LCD-2 on the little DACmini, speaks volumes.  I won't say that the combo is really better than the above Phoenix combos running totally balanced 'cause it isn't, but the combo of the 2 (mini/LCD02) are such a perfect match to my ear for all kinds of music, that w/o even thinking, it is what I find I tend to always reach for. Michael & his CEntrance guys have done it again. I use my DACport with my iPAD almost exclusively now, usually with IEMs, but with my LCD-2 I now almost exclusively plug in the mini.  Before this i favored my maxxed Woo6, but not anymore unless I want to focus purely on some of my Jazz favorites.
   
  I hope as your busy schedule allows, you'll do a formal review of the DACmini.  I know I'd love to read it.  I always look forward to reading all your new reviews. They have been a lot of help to me over the last few years in making wise purchase choices & is much appreciated. I feel sure the same is true for a lot of other HeadFiers.  Thanks!!!!
  
  Quote: 





headphoneaddict said:


> I'm finding the CEntrance DACmini is a very good choice for the LCD-2, and it's become my favorite amp to pair with the LCD-2 so far (no balanced cable for SR-71b yet).


----------



## grokit

Just FYI, the Leben is a tube amp anyways.
  
  Quote: 





vitor teixeira said:


> Hey there,
> 
> Been using W4S Dac2 - M^3 with the LCD-2, but would like to try it with another SS amp ( SE and Balanced)
> I've read a few pages of this thread and it seems there are some concensus on the Concerto; Burson, Violetric and Leben (way out of budget i'm afraid), did i miss others?
> Thanks.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





austinhorn said:


> I totally agree with your statement. I too am going to obtain a balanced cable for my LCD-2 so I can listen to it on my Phoenix, but right now I don't have another amp that pairs so well as does my DACmini with my LCD-2.  I now find that I atomatically reack for my LCD-2 & turn on my DACmini when I sit down at my PC. Up until I got the LCD-2, I almost always hooked up the Phoenix to my HDR dac via balanced cables & pulled out my HE5LEs, Beyer 880 600 ohms, or my HD650s all with SSA balanced cables.  So to prefer a stock cabled SE  LCD-2 on the little DACmini, speaks volumes.  I won't say that the combo is really better than the above Phoenix combos running totally balanced 'cause it isn't, but the combo of the 2 (mini/LCD02) are such a perfect match to my ear for all kinds of music, that w/o even thinking, it is what I find I tend to always reach for. Michael & his CEntrance guys have done it again. I use my DACport with my iPAD almost exclusively now, usually with IEMs, but with my LCD-2 I now almost exclusively plug in the mini.  Before this i favored my maxxed Woo6, but not anymore unless I want to focus purely on some of my Jazz favorites.
> 
> I hope as your busy schedule allows, you'll do a formal review of the DACmini.  I know I'd love to read it.  I always look forward to reading all your new reviews. They have been a lot of help to me over the last few years in making wise purchase choices & is much appreciated. I feel sure the same is true for a lot of other HeadFiers.  Thanks!!!!


 
   
  Very cool.  Sounds like a good report on the DAC-Mini !!


----------



## Vitor Teixeira

grokit said:


> Just FYI, the Leben is a tube amp anyways.




Yeah, I know.. But from the other ones I mentioned (and others I didn't) can you "recommend" any who in your opinion would be a good match with the W4S?


----------



## Vitor Teixeira

Quote: 





vitor teixeira said:


> Hey there,
> 
> Been using W4S Dac2 - M^3 with the LCD-2, but would like to try it with another SS amp ( SE and Balanced)
> I've read a few pages of this thread and it seems there are some concensus on the Concerto; Burson, Violetric and Leben (way out of budget i'm afraid), did i miss others?
> Thanks.


 
   
   
  Stupid me, using the word "concensus" after 106 pages thread
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   

 Ai Ai Ai Ai Ai Ai Ai Ai Ai Ai


----------



## matthewh133

Has anyone tried running the LCD-2 straight from an audio-gd fun using both the amp and DAC? I'd be interesting in hearing the results.


----------



## Currawong

Quote: 





matthewh133 said:


> Has anyone tried running the LCD-2 straight from an audio-gd fun using both the amp and DAC? I'd be interesting in hearing the results.


 

 The Fun works surprisingly well and is suprisingly listenable with the LCD-2s.  My impression of it is probably related to it having the same "house sound" as my main rig (which clearly has a much bigger soundstage than the Fun).


----------



## SoupRKnowva

Quote: 





currawong said:


> The Fun works surprisingly well and is suprisingly listenable with the LCD-2s.  My impression of it is probably related to it having the same "house sound" as my main rig (which clearly has a much bigger soundstage than the Fun).


 
  that was also my main gripe, though i listened with the sparrow. was the collapsed soundstage compared to other high end equipment, it did seem to power it pretty well though.


----------



## KingStyles

I think this is appropriate to post here. Here is a review from 6moons on the Eddie Current BA. He used the lcd2 through most of the headphone part of the review and he had very high remarks for the BA / lcd2 combo at the end. http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/eddiecurrent3/1.html


----------



## matthewh133

Quote: 





currawong said:


> The Fun works surprisingly well and is suprisingly listenable with the LCD-2s.  My impression of it is probably related to it having the same "house sound" as my main rig (which clearly has a much bigger soundstage than the Fun).


 

 Interesting. I'm tempted to sell off my HA-160 and my AD2000 and put that $1000 towards an LCD-2 to run from the FUN. Thoughts anyone?


----------



## Currawong

I'll take your AD2000s, but I'd suggest saving for an NFB-10 to go with the LCD-2s as a replacement for those two and sell your HD-650s as well. You wont be needing them anyway.


----------



## matthewh133

Quote: 





currawong said:


> I'll take your AD2000s, but I'd suggest saving for an NFB-10 to go with the LCD-2s as a replacement for those two and sell your HD-650s as well. You wont be needing them anyway.


 

 An NFB10 would be very nice, and the combo sounds like it would be great, but I want to keep the total cost of my setup at under $1500 (saving for a holiday), hence why I was interested in the FUN + LCD-2 combo. I feel kind of like I'm wasting $500 in my setup atm with the Burson. It's just not $500 worth of improvement over the FUN alone with the AD2000. I was also already planning to sell the HD650, just haven't gotten around to it yet. I really do love the AD2000s, I just wish it had a little more bass quantity. Other than that, they are stunning. If I do end up deciding to get rid of the AD2000s any time soon I shall let you know


----------



## K3cT

Maybe go for the Schiit Lyr and a GrubDAC?


----------



## VLCAD

The LCD-2 sounds great with the Lyr. I just listened to the combo yesterday at the Norcal Headfi meetup, as I'm sure did K3cT.


----------



## matthewh133

Would you say it adds a little more energy and brightness to the LCD-2's sound or is a more warmer sounding combination? The LCD-2 through the Leben was a bit too dark for me.


----------



## VLCAD

The Lyr had plenty of energy, both musically and literally, but I wouldn't call it overly bright or warm. It was fairly neutral to my ears.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





			
				Vitor Teixeira said:
			
		

> /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


 


 I'm already out on a limb recommending the W4S actually, as I've never personally listened to it. I just think that if I were looking into DACs in that class that is one I would consider based upon comparisons I have read. FWIW, you may want a tube output stage on your DAC going into an SS amp, or vice-versa to give you the best of both worlds. Sorry I can't be more helpful here, as I have found my bliss with the LCD-2 of a balanced tube amp. If I were looking for a combo SS setup I would probably check into the Meier and Violectric lines myself.


----------



## Skylab

Speaking of tube amps and the LCD-2, I have been spending quite a bit of time with the Trafomatic Head One driving the LCD-2, and feel this is a really excellent and synergistic pairing.


----------



## llama_egg

I'm hoping to see more impressions on the Lyr soon. I really have my heart set on a WA6SE, but unless I luck out and get a used one at a good price (someone sell me theirs already!) I'm not sure if I can justify over a grand for my first amp. If I can't I'll most likely be going with the Lyr!
  
  Quote: 





vlcad said:


> The Lyr had plenty of energy, both musically and literally, but I wouldn't call it overly bright or warm. It was fairly neutral to my ears.


----------



## seldenr

Wow, great thread.  I am very interested in purchasing a pair of theLCD-2.  I am rather short on desk space (especially since I already have a pair of Soliloquy monitors sitting there), so was considering a Peachtree Audio Nova or iNova or iDecco.  Has anyone listened to the LCD-2 with any of these integrated/DAC/head-amps?  I would certainly appreciate any comments on how the sound of any of the Peachtree Audio units compared to any of the other preferred amps for the LCD-2. 
   
  I like the idea of the iNova or iDecco since it has a good quality DAC, a preamp, headphone amp and amp in one unit.  I read a review of the Nova that seemed to think its DAC was first class, but did not mention much about the quality of its headphone amp section, and certainly did not mention it being used with the LCD-2.  So any comments/experience would be appreciated!!


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





seldenr said:


> Wow, great thread.  I am very interested in purchasing a pair of theLCD-2.  I am rather short on desk space (especially since I already have a pair of Soliloquy monitors sitting there), so was considering a Peachtree Audio Nova or iNova or iDecco.  Has anyone listened to the LCD-2 with any of these integrated/DAC/head-amps?  I would certainly appreciate any comments on how the sound of any of the Peachtree Audio units compared to any of the other preferred amps for the LCD-2.
> 
> I like the idea of the iNova or iDecco since it has a good quality DAC, a preamp, headphone amp and amp in one unit.  I read a review of the Nova that seemed to think its DAC was first class, but did not mention much about the quality of its headphone amp section, and certainly did not mention it being used with the LCD-2.  So any comments/experience would be appreciated!!


 
  Yes, I've spent some time listening to the iDecco and MusicBox.  Both amps sounded ok as LCD-2 amps, but just OK.  The DAC in the iDecco sounded better to my ears than the one in the MusicBox.  In spite of how good they are value wise, I personally wanted more than what they delivered to the LCD-2s.  The iDecco might be OK if used as a DAC feeding a more capable headamp.


----------



## Permagrin

Quote:


seldenr said:


> Wow, great thread.  I am very interested in purchasing a pair of theLCD-2.  I am rather short on desk space (especially since I already have a pair of Soliloquy monitors sitting there), so was considering a Peachtree Audio Nova or iNova or iDecco.  Has anyone listened to the LCD-2 with any of these integrated/DAC/head-amps?  I would certainly appreciate any comments on how the sound of any of the Peachtree Audio units compared to any of the other preferred amps for the LCD-2.
> 
> I like the idea of the iNova or iDecco since it has a good quality DAC, a preamp, headphone amp and amp in one unit.  I read a review of the Nova that seemed to think its DAC was first class, but did not mention much about the quality of its headphone amp section, and certainly did not mention it being used with the LCD-2.  So any comments/experience would be appreciated!!


   
  You may want to consider the Burson HA-160D. I own the stand-alone amp (and audio buffer) and it is very competent when used with the LCD-2s. If you are in the area I would be more than happy to let you audition it.


----------



## AustinHorn

I want to second the suggestion of the Burson over the Peachtree gear. Checkout the 6 Moons reviews on the LCD-2 & Burson.


----------



## mamba315

Just read through all 107 pages of this thread.
   
  Just wanted to bring up the topic of impedance matching between your source and amp.  I suspect there will be a lot of less experienced people reading this thread, and I've already seen instances where the same amp receives different reviews from different people (Schitt Asgard, I'm looking at you).  There could be several explanations, but its important to understand impedance matching as a foundation.
   
  I am going to use a post from another forum that I found helpful on this topic, from user Nuuk on Audiocircle:

_"The main job that a hi-fi buffer does is 'sorting out' impedance mis-matches. Various parts of the hi-fi system have input and output impedances. Impedance is a bit like resistance but for AC signals (instead of DC). As a rule of thumb, the output impedance of a circuit should be about ten times lower than the input impedance of the circuit that comes after it. Something as simple as a pot has an input and output impedance but they are usually the same. So if we take the Sensation amplifier for example, if its input impedance is 100K (I don't know what it actually is) then the ideal impedance of the pot would be 10K. And if a DAC comes immediately before the pot, then the output impedance should be no higher than 1K (in theory). If the impedance matching is not optimal, the ability of the whole system to transfer power efficiently from the source to the speakers, will be compromised, and the sound quality will suffer.

 Improving impedance matching using a buffer will produce large benefits, and in my experience the improvements always outweigh any loss of transparency caused by adding extra circuitry to the system. The improvements that you will hear are down to the buffer improving the impedance matching more than the added circuit having any other effect on the sound. However, the components used in the buffer may also change the sound of the whole system. Valves, transistors, Jfets, and opamps can all be used for buffering, and which will sound best, will depend on personal tastes, and the rest of the equipment in the hi-fi system."_
   
*Now, my question would be whether it is common practice for manufacturers to include a buffer on headphone amps before the gain section.  Is it always done, or is it sometimes done and sometimes not?  Could this be why some amps receive wildly different reviews, or is "synergy" and "taste" still the most likely culprit?*


----------



## GTL

Has anyone compared the DACmini against the concerto/stage DAC combo? Which is better with the LCD2s?


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





gtl said:


> Has anyone compared the DACmini against the concerto/stage DAC combo? Which is better with the LCD2s?


----------



## winma

Quote: 





austinhorn said:


> I want to second the suggestion of the Burson over the Peachtree gear.


 

 I love this match. 
  Burson>lcd-2>wow!


----------



## tyoung8

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Speaking of tube amps and the LCD-2, I have been spending quite a bit of time with the Trafomatic Head One driving the LCD-2, and feel this is a really excellent and synergistic pairing.


 


  Which one do you like better?  That Trafomatic Head One or the mini Torii?


----------



## Skylab

I think the Mini-Torii is the slightly better amp for the LCD-2 - it's got a bit more dynamics.  It's also a bit more lush.  But the Trafomatic is a very nice amp with the LCD-2, and I have been using it more and more.


----------



## Paganini Alfredo

I'm in a bit of a tricky situation here and don't know how to proceed. Hoping the collected pool of knowledge here will help me out...
   
  I'm in the process of selling my current rig, the Headroom UDA in favor of trying some thing else out with my LCD's; mainly a tube amp. But I really have no idea what source to pair it with. I haven't had a chance to attend a meet since I've been here so I don't know what gear pairs best. 
   
  So here's the skinny. I've got roughly 2500$ bucks to spend putting together a new rig. But I'm wanting a tube set up. I've (I think) got it narrowed down to about two choices; 1. One of two Woo amps (the 6-SE or WA2) with whatever source (still don't know what) and 2. The RWA Isabellina which is exactly priced to my budget.
   
  I'm attracted towards the RWA since it's got both the amp/dac combo, but this turned out to be my achilles heel in my current set up as I can't swap out my amp from the source. And as I understand it, the RWA has a dual tube output in the amp so does this classify as a "tube" amp?
   
  On a side note; I initially started thinking about a change when I plugged my cheap ion turntable into my analog input of my Ultra Desktop. While the low quality of the source/turntable was evident I absolutely loved its presentation of the analog sound. I guess this is what I want in my new sound. The Ultra sounded very "digital" in comparison if that's even a useful term to describe it. Will a tube amp present a more analog sound or will I have to go in search of a high end turntable. I REALLY don't want to go down that road because of inconvenience record players present; cleaning the records, actually finding records I want to listen to (oh, and NO vinyl stores here in Wichita) and worrying about upkeep. Is that part of the price of using vinyl?

 I guess I'm wanting a sound similar to what I heard on my record player... I'm not even sure how to label it; organic, natural, warm, rounded, smooth etc...
   
  So in short, HALP!!!


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





paganini alfredo said:


> On a side note; I initially started thinking about a change when I plugged my cheap ion turntable into my analog input of my Ultra Desktop. While the low quality of the source/turntable was evident I absolutely loved its presentation of the analog sound. I guess this is what I want in my new sound. The Ultra sounded very "digital" in comparison if that's even a useful term to describe it. Will a tube amp present a more analog sound or will I have to go in search of a high end turntable. I REALLY don't want to go down that road because of inconvenience record players present; cleaning the records, actually finding records I want to listen to (oh, and NO vinyl stores here in Wichita) and worrying about upkeep. Is that part of the price of using vinyl?
> 
> I guess I'm wanting a sound similar to what I heard on my record player... I'm not even sure how to label it; organic, natural, warm, rounded, smooth etc...
> 
> So in short, HALP!!!


 
   
  What you heard was the cheap preamp in your turntable, the subtle intermodulation of the turntable rumble superimposed upon the audio signal noise floor, all with 20dB of channel separation and 45dB of dynamic range.


----------



## Paganini Alfredo

*ahem* Well whatever that means in English, I'm sure it's a good thing.


----------



## Skylab

Vinyl sounds good in spite of some of its measurements (although some of its measurements are terrific). But even with a very entry-level turntable like that one, some of the vinyl magic apparently came through 

Maybe what you should consider is a DAC with a tube output stage. I love my Audio by Van Alstine Hybrid Vision DAC, but that would shoot your whole budget. The Music Hall 25.2 has a tube output stage, and is pretty decent for the money, but it doesn't have the same degree of analog-like smoothness that the AVA has. Real analog smoothness and naturalness from digital sources seems to cost a lot, IME.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Vinyl sounds good in spite of some of its measurements (although some of its measurements are terrific). But even with a very entry-level turntable like that one, some of the vinyl magic apparently came through
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I was looking into that one but decided against it because the tube output stage on the 25.2/3 is only for the single-ended line outs; if you want to use it balanced, the output is 100% SS.


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





paganini alfredo said:


> I'm in a bit of a tricky situation here and don't know how to proceed. Hoping the collected pool of knowledge here will help me out...
> 
> I'm in the process of selling my current rig, the Headroom UDA in favor of trying some thing else out with my LCD's; mainly a tube amp. But I really have no idea what source to pair it with. I haven't had a chance to attend a meet since I've been here so I don't know what gear pairs best.
> 
> ...


 

 FWIW, I agree with Skylab WRT digital being expensive before, in my experience, a certain edgy high frequency phenomena is eliminated.  On the Bryston and Reference 7 DAC both costing in the vicinity of 2K did not irritate me, with the Ref7 sounding a tad more rounded and natural to me.  OTOH...a NOS dac can seem to achieve the same elimination of edgy digititis...my one cost 60 dollars and there are "some" things it can do that nothing else I heard can (vocals).  Every other typical midrange DAC annoy me to no end.
   
  It just so happens that the Red Wine is built upon a NOS dac with tubes...I would love to hear this unit.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Vinyl sounds good in spite of some of its measurements (although some of its measurements are terrific). But even with a very entry-level turntable like that one, some of the vinyl magic apparently came through
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  The 25.2 tweaked and tube rolled seems to sound pretty liquid and detailed to me.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





grokit said:


> I was looking into that one but decided against it because the tube output stage on the 25.2/3 is only for the single-ended line outs; if you want to use it balanced, the output is 100% SS.


 
   
  That's true, the balanced output is SS only.  SE works great for me.


----------



## kwkarth

The MHDT Havana is another outstandingly good sounding DAC for the money.


----------



## SP Wild

I've got my eye on the Havana, there is even a true balanced version, very rare to see a balanced tubed NOS dac, the balanced output is tubed as is the SE output.


----------



## ptrok

Out of curiousity, what tubes do you have rolled in the mini torii? Also, I was wondering if you think the yulong d100 would have good synergy with the mini torii for the LCD-2? If anyone else has had time with the mini torii, I would appreciate your recommendations.
  Quote: 





skylab said:


> I think the Mini-Torii is the slightly better amp for the LCD-2 - it's got a bit more dynamics.  It's also a bit more lush.  But the Trafomatic is a very nice amp with the LCD-2, and I have been using it more and more.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





sp wild said:


> I've got my eye on the Havana, there is even a true balanced version, very rare to see a balanced tubed NOS dac, the balanced output is tubed as is the SE output.


 


  Yeah, it's truly balanced throughout, not just fresh lipstick on a pig.  I haven't had the opportunity to hear the balanced version yet, but it sure looks impressive and I bet it sounds good!


----------



## Skylab

I'm using Tung-Sol 12BH7 driver tubes, Sylvania 6V6G power tubes, Sylvania 6X4's, RCA OA3's and Raytheon OC2's.  Never tried the Yulong with the MT.


----------



## ptrok

Thanks for the quick reply. What dac do you use for your setup for the LCD-2?


----------



## Skylab

I have been alternating between an RWA iMod with ALO Auricap dock, and an Audio By VanAlstine tube-hybrid DAC.


----------



## ptrok

Thanks for the info again.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Have a good one.


----------



## oqvist

Quote: 





skylab said:


> I think the Mini-Torii is the slightly better amp for the LCD-2 - it's got a bit more dynamics.  It's also a bit more lush.  But the Trafomatic is a very nice amp with the LCD-2, and I have been using it more and more.


 

 Nice to hear it works that well. Head One is the one and only tube amp I have ever listened to. Have you found any tube amp in the same price range or less  that is significantly better for the LCD-2? 
  Will we happen to see a full fledged review sometime in the future? .


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





oqvist said:


> Nice to hear it works that well. Head One is the one and only tube amp I have ever listened to. Have you found any tube amp in the same price range or less  that is significantly better for the LCD-2?
> Will we happen to see a full fledged review sometime in the future? .


 

 Form what I have heard so far, the only tube amps that I personally have heard that performs as well with the LCD-2 in the same price range is the WooAudio WA2 and the Decware Mini-Torii.  But the HeadOne is the more flexible amp, as it will work with a wider variety of headphones.. The WA2 is good with planars and high impedance dynamics, but not so much with low-impedance dynamics. The Mini-Torii is really only good with low-sensitivity, low-impedance planar headphones. The Traformatic's impedance switch I have found to be very effective, and as a transformer-coupled design, it does quite well with even the low-impedance dynamics.  I've enjoyed it with the JVC DX1000 quite a but along with the LCD-2.


----------



## perrew

Anyone compared the ECBA to the Leben or mini-torii?


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Form what I have heard so far, the only tube amps that I personally have heard that performs as well with the LCD-2 in the same price range is the WooAudio WA2 and the Decware Mini-Torii.  But the HeadOne is the more flexible amp, as it will work with a wider variety of headphones.. The WA2 is good with planars and high impedance dynamics, but not so much with low-impedance dynamics.


 
   
  I absolutely agree with Rob on this too. I still own my MAD Ear+HD (transformer coupled tube amp) and Concerto (SS) amps for my low impedance cans that aren't planars.


----------



## DeadEars

Quote: 





mamba315 said:


> *Now, my question would be whether it is common practice for manufacturers to include a buffer on headphone amps before the gain section.  Is it always done, or is it sometimes done and sometimes not?  Could this be why some amps receive wildly different reviews, or is "synergy" and "taste" still the most likely culprit?*


 
  This is an interesting question, but requires a little thought about the nature of impedence and AC signals.
   
  Unfortunately, it's not quite as simple as just adding a buffer stage that provides the right impedence on both sides.  Impedence is not really a single number, since it is an AC phenomenon -- most of the time it varies with frequency, especially in output stages.  Transistors and Tubes differ in their linearity and ability to deliver a flat power curve into varying impedence loads.  Different input and output topologies will affect this power transfer to a greater or lesser degree.  Buffers are active devices that cannot be counted on to be entirely linear across a wide range of AC frequencies, plus as you point out, many of them tend to have a sonic imprint they add to the music.
   
  For an alternative, think about transformers.  Any transformer is an impedence matching device which can be used to improve the power transfer across audio frequencies.  Different turns ratios or taps on the transformer can be used to tailor the impedence match to optimize the power transfer.  But transformers that are really flat across the entire audio spectrum are expensive. 
   
  On the input side, some designs couple the headphone amplifier to the source across a capacitor, while others apply the signal though a transformer, or even use a buffer circuit as you suggest.  Each connection approach has tradeoffs.  Usually the designer will tailor the tradeoffs to maximize sound quality (or minimize parts count) -- based on price point and priorities for production.  I personally am partial to dual-differential fully balanced input stages, using transformers to couple.  But I've built amps that used other approaches with excellent SQ.  Anyway, it is not as simple as slapping in a buffer stage to solve all the ills of impedence matching.  Wish it was...
   
  On the output side, transformers can work great as impedence matching mechanisms to link the output devices to the load.  But again, they all vary somewhat in their performance at different frequencies (altho their limits may be well outside audible frequencies).  Or in another case, an OTL (output transformer-Less) design directly couples the power devices to the load.  If the impedence match is good, and the design carefully done, the amplifier will be operating its output devices in the most linear part of their operating range, where every increase or decrease in inputs yields an exactly proportionate output.  But the load can complicate that as its impedence varies with frequency.  So nearly every OTL amp has a fairly narrow range of load impedences where it will sound its best.  Fiddling with the input impedence doesn't solve problems of varying power delivery across different output frequencies.
   
  The good news for Audez'e users is that the LCD-2 is mostly resistive in load, barring cable capacitance, etc.  So these cans provide a fairly nice load to most amps that can handle a low impedence, provded they can deliver enough current
   
  Hope this helps!
   
  Frank


----------



## BrianMendoza

I brought my rig over to my parents tonight to show my dad how good the pairing is between the LCD-2 and the Concerto.
   

   

   
  And I was also showing off the wood/black granite mini-shelf I made for my my Concerto and StageDAC.


----------



## grokit

Frank, that was such an awesome explanation I turned it into a wiki!
   
  I hope you don't mind


----------



## JIGF

Quote: 





deadears said:


> This is an interesting question, but requires a little thought about the nature of impedence and AC signals.
> 
> Unfortunately, it's not quite as simple as just adding a buffer stage that provides the right impedence on both sides.  Impedence is not really a single number, since it is an AC phenomenon -- most of the time it varies with frequency, especially in output stages.  Transistors and Tubes differ in their linearity and ability to deliver a flat power curve into varying impedence loads.  Different input and output topologies will affect this power transfer to a greater or lesser degree.  Buffers are active devices that cannot be counted on to be entirely linear across a wide range of AC frequencies, plus as you point out, many of them tend to have a sonic imprint they add to the music.
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks.


----------



## DeadEars

Quote: 





grokit said:


> Frank, that was such an awesome explanation I turned it into a wiki!
> 
> I hope you don't mind


 

 Aw shucks!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  It's better with math, than in English.  I remember the "aha" moment when looking at the output of a curve tracer for several different active devices (transistors & tubes) and seeing how their transfer function varied at different frequencies.  That's when I realized that the amp I was building was operating the same device at different points along the curve with each frequency.  And every device has a different curve at different operating voltages/bias points.  Whew!
   
  Designing this stuff so that it sounds outstanding, rather than merely good, is an art form.  It is not just all-so-simple to make sure all of the possible input frequencies are along the linear portion of the transistor/tube, given ALL of the possible output voltages from the previous stage.  At the same time, the designer is considering the bias voltages being used on each device, feedback, and then coupling to next stage, or to a load.  Remember that the source can output mere millivolts all the way up to 3 volts, or even 5 volts in some instances. The amp needs to be linear across this range of voltage, at every audio frequency.  I am in awe of the great audio designers, like Nelson Pass, John Curl, or Alan Kimmel.  It is quite an accomplishment when it all comes out sounding spectacular:  selecting the right devices and setting up a circuit topology that operates them to best effect, while not overdriving them (for longevity), and not under-driving them (for noise elimination & non-linearities) and avoiding the use of band-aids like negative feedback loops.  I've spent a lot of time looking at circuit diagrams and rebuilding vintage tube amps from the 40's, 50's and 60's.  It is simply amazing all the different solutions and circuit topologies that have been used simply for audio amplification.  While there are many "standard" topologies that are heavily used, there are often really creative solutions that break the mould and accomplish fantastic sonic results (see for instance the way David Berning couples audio signals by piggybacking them on top of RF signals!).
   
  Fun stuff!
   
  Frank


----------



## grokit

Wiki updated and credited!
http://www.head-fi.org/wiki/impedance-matching


----------



## log0

Quote: 





brianmendoza said:


> I brought my rig over to my parents tonight to show my dad how good the pairing is between the LCD-2 and the Concerto.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Awesome looking setup Brian. I like the enclose you made for the Meiers.


----------



## BrianMendoza

Thanks man! It came out to a total of around $20. and only about a half hour to put make.
   
  I had the guy at home depot cut the wood and granite for me, so all I had to do when I came home was some marking and nailing.


----------



## hooked

First time post.  Great forum.  Got an LCD-2 about 1 month ago and I'm thoroughly enjoying them.  Started by using the Icon HDP and it seemed to be straining at higher volumes (I like to crank it up).  Read the posts about the LCD-2 needing some power/current to sound it's best.  Had an old Linn Majik Integrated Amp (33 Watts per channel) and put together an adapter so I could connect the LCD-2 to the speaker outputs.  Wow, what a difference, it really opened up the sound.  Sounds pretty good to me right now, but I will probably look to upgrade later.  Keeping an eye out for reviews of the Schiit Lyr. 
   
  Paul


----------



## davo50

Quote: 





hooked said:


> First time post.  Great forum.  Got an LCD-2 about 1 month ago and I'm thoroughly enjoying them.  Started by using the Icon HDP and it seemed to be straining at higher volumes (I like to crank it up).  Read the posts about the LCD-2 needing some power/current to sound it's best.  Had an old Linn Majik Integrated Amp (33 Watts per channel) and put together an adapter so I could connect the LCD-2 to the speaker outputs.  Wow, what a difference, it really opened up the sound.  Sounds pretty good to me right now, but I will probably look to upgrade later.  Keeping an eye out for reviews of the Schiit Lyr.
> 
> Paul


 

 Welcome to head-fi.  Your moniker is fitting as that is what happens when you hang out around here and experience a great HP like the LCD-2.


----------



## matthewh133

Has anyone had a chance to compare the NFB10 (Balanced) vs HA-160D? I am awaiting my LCD-2 to come from the good ol' postman and I think it's time to upgrade my DAC. Not sure which of these combo units to go for. The NFB10 would be nice for balanced (and I could plug in my active monitors balanced at the back), but I've heard nothing but great things about the HA-160D. Though the stepped attenuator is a bit of a pain in the ass.


----------



## Permagrin

Quote:


matthewh133 said:


> Has anyone had a chance to compare the NFB10 (Balanced) vs HA-160D? I am awaiting my LCD-2 to come from the good ol' postman and I think it's time to upgrade my DAC. Not sure which of these combo units to go for. The NFB10 would be nice for balanced (and I could plug in my active monitors balanced at the back), but I've heard nothing but great things about the HA-160D. Though the stepped attenuator is a bit of a pain in the ass.


 
   
  The stepped attenuator isn't as bad as people make it out to be. Mine has enough steps and there was only channel cut-out in the preliminary models (HA-160 not D).


----------



## BournePerfect

M-Stage users:
   
       What opamp are you guys using in conjunction with the LCDs? Just curious what the best one (Biased Class A) would be for brightening up the Audeze a bit?
   
  -Daniel


----------



## bwarfel

Has anyone heard the LCD-2 with a Mapleshade or Decware amp?


----------



## matthewh133

Quote: 





permagrin said:


> Quote:
> 
> The stepped attenuator isn't as bad as people make it out to be. Mine has enough steps and there was only channel cut-out in the preliminary models (HA-160 not D).


 

 Mine annoys me a little. My preferred listening volume is right between two of the steps, so I have to adjust in foobar


----------



## Francoy

Quote: 





bwarfel said:


> Has anyone heard the LCD-2 with a Mapleshade or Decware amp?


 

 Man there are PLENTY of Decware talks in these pages ;¬)
   
  If you don’t get an answer quickly enough for your taste, just search for it and you will find a lot of input in this thread or the one about the LCD-2s... My comprehension is that the Decwares and LCD-2 are very good pairings. Don’t know about Mapleshade though


----------



## Skylab

The question is WHICH Decware amp


----------



## MikeLa

How about the Decware CSP2+ + Zen Taboo ?


----------



## Seld

Hi all, headfiers.

   

  I would like to have an advice before breaking all my toys.

   

  I'm actually enjoying my LCD2 with the Wa6... But I would like to try it out with a speaker amp.

  The only amp I have is a Musical Fidelity XT100 (with a XRay-V8 combo cd drive as source).

  The amp technical details are these:

  power: 50w into 8 Ohm ...... or ..... 80w into 4 Ohm

  voltage, RMS ...... >20 volts 20Hz to 20kHz

  voltage, peak-to-peak ....... 67 volts

  current, peak-to-peak ....... 30 Amps

  pre-out impedance ........ 47 Ohm

   

  Do you think I could drive the LCD2 directly from this amp? or may I damage it?

  And building the cable, can I use the original cable of the LCD2 cutting the jack or do I need a power cable o something else?

   

  Thanks a lot for your attention and you suggestions!

  F


----------



## ptrok

Has anyone here spent some serious time with the Burson HA-160D with the LCD-2's and can give an impression. I read the article in 6moons and it got a blue moon award and all but I have been wondering if anyone else who has had some experience with this combo can add their opinions.


----------



## Francoy

Quote: 





seld said:


> Hi all, headfiers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I actually tried what you are talking about with my Musical Fidelity A3.2 amp and I can tell you to use caution if you do it! The reason; with the sound pot all the way down (at 7 o’clock if you will) the sound was freakingly loud and with channel imbalance. You would not damage your phones if you don’t crank the volume to much though... But the danger is there.
   
  And yes, cutting the wire near the jack and striping it allows you to plug the 4 wires to the speaker binding posts of your amp (using the red and pink wires as positives and the clear and white as the negatives - to verify which goes where and with who, you can unscrew the mini xlr plug and see what’s wired with what).
   
  You would probably be better off with an adapter though... Maybe with something like that:
  http://www.divertech.com/asluhcsignature.html


----------



## ninjikiran

What gain level do people use with the Concerto, Mode 1/2 Low, Mode 1/2 High?  Cant seem to find the proper post in the main meier thread.


----------



## smk5r

I'm having quite a bit of success powering the LCD2s with a 45 tube amp. I posted a bit here. Can't recommend DHT SETs for the LCD2s enough!


----------



## Solude

Low gain was loud enough for me on the Concerto.  As for HA-160D... mine is in transit from PartsConnexion though doubtful I have it this weekend.  The idea of an amp/dac/pre than can feed my LCD-2 or nearfields is just awesome.  Hoping it can compete with the stello/b22.  Will see.


----------



## Red Jacket Mike

Quote: 





ninjikiran said:


> What gain level do people use with the Concerto, Mode 1/2 Low, Mode 1/2 High?  Cant seem to find the proper post in the main meier thread.


 

 I use the middle gain; I opened up the amp and removed the jumpers, as described in the manual.  This allows all the volume I need at around 10-11 o'clock.  
   
  Low gain was between noon and 1 for me; high was around 9 .


----------



## Seld

Thank you very much Francoy!
  So I'll take care when I'll try. I really want to know how it sounds directly from the amp.
  My "luck" is that the XT100 is less powerful than your A3.2 so maybe it will be a little more controllable on volume...
  By the way, and whatever happens really really thanks!
   
  Quote: 





francoy said:


> I actually tried what you are talking about with my Musical Fidelity A3.2 amp and I can tell you to use caution if you do it! The reason; with the sound pot all the way down (at 7 o’clock if you will) the sound was freakingly loud and with channel imbalance. You would not damage your phones if you don’t crank the volume to much though... But the danger is there.
> 
> And yes, cutting the wire near the jack and striping it allows you to plug the 4 wires to the speaker binding posts of your amp (using the red and pink wires as positives and the clear and white as the negatives - to verify which goes where and with who, you can unscrew the mini xlr plug and see what’s wired with what).
> 
> ...


----------



## Permagrin

Quote:


ptrok said:


> Has anyone here spent some serious time with the Burson HA-160D with the LCD-2's and can give an impression. I read the article in 6moons and it got a blue moon award and all but I have been wondering if anyone else who has had some experience with this combo can add their opinions.


   
  I have for the last 5 months or so, love it, especially after I got a SACD player. I think what you need to decide is how much you are willing to spend and go from there (if you haven't already).
   
  Also, the search this thread feature beneath the title of this thread is pretty effective at finding impressions on the Burson (here and the main LCD-2 thread).
   
  Cheers!


----------



## matthewh133

Quote: 





permagrin said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> ptrok said:
> ...


 

 Holy crap I never realized that was there. Thank you kind sir, you've just made this a hell of a lot easier.


----------



## JIGF

Quote:  





> The idea of an amp/dac/pre than can feed my LCD-2 or nearfields is just awesome.  Hoping it can compete with the stello/b22.  Will see.


 

 I second that, although doubtful the DAC in the 160D will be any good compared to something like the Stello.
   
  I'd kill for the 160 to have pre outs.


----------



## ptrok

Quote: 





permagrin said:


> I have for the last 5 months or so, love it, especially after I got a SACD player. I think what you need to decide is how much you are willing to spend and go from there (if you haven't already).
> 
> Also, the search this thread feature beneath the title of this thread is pretty effective at finding impressions on the Burson (here and the main LCD-2 thread).
> 
> Cheers!


 

 You have made my Head-fi experience that much better and I must thank you. I was unaware of this feature and have been forced to read each page of a thread to find information. You're the man Permagrin.


----------



## ptrok

Quote: 





jigf said:


> I second that, although doubtful the DAC in the 160D will be any good compared to something like the Stello.
> 
> I'd kill for the 160 to have pre outs.


 


  So would you recommend a separate DAC and Amp combo rather than the Burson? Since I live in Korea, I can get Stello products for about $200 cheaper than in the States with free Shipping. So, in your opinion what do you like about the Stello that makes it a good DAC? BTW are you referring to the DA100 Signature or the Ai500? Most reviews that I have read say that they are very forward DAC's but that may benefit the LCD-2's. Thanks for your opinion.


----------



## K3cT

Quote: 





ptrok said:


> Has anyone here spent some serious time with the Burson HA-160D with the LCD-2's and can give an impression. I read the article in 6moons and it got a blue moon award and all but I have been wondering if anyone else who has had some experience with this combo can add their opinions.


 


  The Burson HA-160D shows up quite often in our local gatherings so I'm quite familiar with its sound. To sum it up, it provides a thick, meaty, PRaT-y, bassy and warm-ish sound. I thought I quite like the combination with the LCD2.
   
  Its only weakness is the DAC inside that unit, it's probably just on par with a HRT Music Streamer II. That's right, *II* not *II+*. Any decent dedicated DAC will easily outperform it.


----------



## matthewh133

Quote: 





k3ct said:


> The Burson HA-160D shows up quite often in our local gatherings so I'm quite familiar with its sound. To sum it up, it provides a thick, meaty, PRaT-y, bassy and warm-ish sound. I thought I quite like the combination with the LCD2.
> 
> Its only weakness is the DAC inside that unit, it's probably just on par with a HRT Music Streamer II. That's right, *II* not *II+*. *Any decent dedicated DAC will easily outperform it.*


 

 Hmm, I currently have the HA-160 and using an Audio-GD FUN as a DAC. I was looking to upgrade my DAC, and the 160D was one of my options. Judging by this comment it most likely won't be so much of an upgrade. Have you heard the NFB10? How does this compare against the Burson as an all-in-one? Especially with the LCD-2.


----------



## K3cT

I haven't heard the NFB10 so I can't comment on that but perhaps getting a separate DAC will serve you better. NFB10 is a combo unit similar to the Burson so it wouldn't make sense for me to get it solely for the DAC unless you're after the preamp.


----------



## matthewh133

Quote: 





k3ct said:


> I haven't heard the NFB10 so I can't comment on that but perhaps getting a separate DAC will serve you better. NFB10 is a combo unit similar to the Burson so it wouldn't make sense for me to get it solely for the DAC unless you're after the preamp.


 
   
  Sorry for not being clear, if I were to get the NFB10 it would be to use both the headphone amplifier AND DAC, as well as this, to run balanced my RP6 powered monitors through preamp. I'd be really interested to hear how the NFB10 and the Burson HA-160D compare with the LCD-2, but I doubt many would have heard both.


----------



## JIGF

Quote: 





ptrok said:


> So would you recommend a separate DAC and Amp combo rather than the Burson? Since I live in Korea, I can get Stello products for about $200 cheaper than in the States with free Shipping. So, in your opinion what do you like about the Stello that makes it a good DAC? BTW are you referring to the DA100 Signature or the Ai500? Most reviews that I have read say that they are very forward DAC's but that may benefit the LCD-2's. Thanks for your opinion.


 

 I can't say anything negative about how the 160D sounds since I have never heard it, but after reading about it I would not buy it; the DAC appears very similar to the Music Streamer II (which I did not like). The 160 part (amp) is phenomenal.
   
  Regarding the Stello, if you happen to have that great discount available, take it, you won't be disappointed with it as DAC, at all.
   
  What makes it good? For me it was night and day wen I changed from the DacMagic (CA) to the Stello, everything sounded much more cohesive and clear, no blurs, very expansive with great separation. The DA100 does not come out as forward sounding to me. Depends what you listen to though.
   
  Hope my ramblings help.
   
  Edit: I am referring to the original DA100 (the same as the Signature if you use it through optical input).


----------



## Carlsan

Quote: 





jigf said:


> I can't say anything negative about how the 160D sounds since I have never heard it, but after reading about it I would not buy it; the DAC appears very similar to the Music Streamer II (which I did not like). The 160 part (amp) is phenomenal.
> ....


 
   
  I came to a similar conclusion about the dac part of the 160D, from reading different reviews, the Dac wasn't really worth the extra cost.
  I bought the HA160 and am very happy with that purchase, it works really well with my headphones (but don't own the LCD-2 yet, so can't comment on those).
   
  For a dac I bought the Eastern Electric MiniMax DAC http://eeaudio.com/eeaudio_20102.htm - it's a dac with the best of both worlds, its output being selectable between Tube and solid state.
 When I finally get to order the LCD-2 (waiting list for a month and a half), I'll post how it all sounds together.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote: 





headphoneaddict said:


> I'm finding the CEntrance DACmini is a very good choice for the LCD-2, and it's become my favorite amp to pair with the LCD-2 so far (no balanced cable for SR-71b yet).


 
   
  Quote: 





austinhorn said:


> I totally agree with your statement. I too am going to obtain a balanced cable for my LCD-2 so I can listen to it on my Phoenix, but right now I don't have another amp that pairs so well as does my DACmini with my LCD-2.  I now find that I atomatically reack for my LCD-2 & turn on my DACmini when I sit down at my PC. Up until I got the LCD-2, I almost always hooked up the Phoenix to my HDR dac via balanced cables & pulled out my HE5LEs, Beyer 880 600 ohms, or my HD650s all with SSA balanced cables.  So to prefer a stock cabled SE  LCD-2 on the little DACmini, speaks volumes.  I won't say that the combo is really better than the above Phoenix combos running totally balanced 'cause it isn't, but the combo of the 2 (mini/LCD02) are such a perfect match to my ear for all kinds of music, that w/o even thinking, it is what I find I tend to always reach for. Michael & his CEntrance guys have done it again. I use my DACport with my iPAD almost exclusively now, usually with IEMs, but with my LCD-2 I now almost exclusively plug in the mini.  Before this i favored my maxxed Woo6, but not anymore unless I want to focus purely on some of my Jazz favorites.
> 
> I hope as your busy schedule allows, you'll do a formal review of the DACmini.  I know I'd love to read it.  I always look forward to reading all your new reviews. They have been a lot of help to me over the last few years in making wise purchase choices & is much appreciated. I feel sure the same is true for a lot of other HeadFiers.  Thanks!!!!


 

 I spent more time with the DACmini and LCD-2 and I can't imagine needing more than the stock gain of 8 with these LCD-2.  Normal listening for me is between 9-11 o'clock (via USB DAC), while 12 is fairly loud, 2-3 o'clock is uncomfortable, and 5 o'clock maxed is deafening/earsplitting with good impact with no clipping.  It definitely isn't running out of juice.  So, not only is frequency response and soundstage a good match for the LCD-2, but power is more than I can ever use.  I'm listening to LCD-2 right now with the volume at only 10 o'clock and I'm worried because my wife can hear my music across the room while she sleeps.
   
  Even my 9v ALO Amphora has enough power for the LCD-2, but it's mids are a little recessed vs the DACmini, and so it doesn't help bring out detail in the LCD-2 mids which I think are a little recessed themselves - so the DACmini helps the LCD-2 mids in my opinion, as well as adding some of that missing sparkle in the highs that I complained about before.  It manages to do this in a more refined and less aggressive manner than my HDP which was also quite powerful with the LCD-2.
   
  I wont say that an optional gain of 10 like yours wont be better for my HE-5 LE or 600 ohm AKG headphones, but you seemed to say previously that you preferred the DACmini with LCD-2 only after you had the gain increased to 10.  But I just don't need that much gain myself, because with the stock gain I can use the DACmini with LCD-2 and everything but HE-6, and all my IEM work well and have no channel imbalance at low volumes.  A gain of 10 would increase the noise floor, and right now I can barely hear any hiss with my ES3X which would be a bit noisier with a gain of 10.
   
  I still don't have my balanced LCD-2 cable to try with my SR-71b and my 55-watt speaker amp.


----------



## Permagrin

I've actually, momentarily, listened to music from my LCD-2s without having them on my head (sounds much better than my crappy iPod dock speakers lol). Yeah they are quite open unfortunately if someone in the same room is sleeping.


----------



## Solude

Hehe I actually do the same when the kids want to listen =)


----------



## strannik

Would it leak sound enough for someone in another room to hear it? Depends on volume, but generally?
  
  Quote: 





permagrin said:


> I've actually, momentarily, listened to music from my LCD-2s without having them on my head (sounds much better than my crappy iPod dock speakers lol). Yeah they are quite open unfortunately if someone in the same room is sleeping.


----------



## tjf120

Has anyone had a chance to hook up the Lyr and try it out with the LCD-2 yet??


----------



## ninjikiran

@Strannik, these leak more than the K702's. 

  Very audible even at healthy volumes.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





tjf120 said:


> Has anyone had a chance to hook up the Lyr and try it out with the LCD-2 yet??


 

 There's been some impressions posted in the latter half of this thread:
  http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/542064/schiit-lyr-shipping-impressions


----------



## zilch0md

The LCD-2s are so open I can mute my source and take calls on my cellphone without removing the LCD-2s.  I'm sure that's possible with some other open designs, but try talking to someone on the phone while wearing LCD-2s - there doesn't seem to be much attenuation at all - and a good reason for finding really quiet places to listen to them.
   
  Mike


----------



## ninjikiran

I have never heard a pair of cans that leak as much as these, or are as open as these.  Its true outside noise gets in  easily BUT they sound great and can drown out most ambient noise while listening to music.  I think part of their "like speakers" sound comes from that open factor.
  
  They really float on your head to after the first couple of times you put them on, granted everyone has different head shapes. I have been lucky enough to find just about every headphone comfy.  Except for the 770 pro digging into my skull.'
   
  On another note the LCD-2's are good for plants, they can listen to the same music you are ;D
  Quote: 





zilch0md said:


> The LCD-2s are so open I can mute my source and take calls on my cellphone without removing the LCD-2s.  I'm sure that's possible with some other open designs, but try talking to someone on the phone while wearing LCD-2s - there doesn't seem to be much attenuation at all - and a good reason for finding really quiet places to listen to them.
> 
> Mike


----------



## zilch0md

Cool!  I guess I should sit closer to the African Violets while wearing my LCD-2s in the tub.
   
  Quote: 





ninjikiran said:


> [snip}
> 
> On another note the LCD-2's are good for plants, they can listen to the same music you are ;D


----------



## gh0st0

Can't wait to get my Lyr (should be shipped at the end of the month) so I can pitch it against my Musical Fidelity M1 HPA.
   
  The LCD-2 already sound *amazing* with the M1, and doesn't feel underpowered at all (volume pot goes 7 o'clock round to 5 o'clock, normal volume for me with the LCD-2 is between 9 and 11, beyond 12 is probably hearing-damage territory) but I've yet to hear them with another amp so can't compare. I can say that it's extremely deft with the fine detail, and suitably muscular when called upon though, and I can't hear any noise at all.
   
  I think I'm about to embark on the old 'start-from-square-one-with-your-entire-music-collection' LCD-2 syndrome ;/


----------



## KingStyles

I can honestly say now that I can recommend the lcd2 with the BA. I didnt like the pairing at a previous meet, but I swapped the driver tube for one that I figured would pair with the lcd2 better and it seemed to be a success. Also the liquid fire for the price is a great amp to run the lcd2 if you want a nice powerful amp. The big surprise was how good the little monster, the schiit Lyr did with them. More than enough power to drive them. It just lost a little clarity and detail to the bigger amps.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





ninjikiran said:


> I have never heard a pair of cans that leak as much as these, or are as open as these.  Its true outside noise gets in  easily BUT they sound great and can drown out most ambient noise while listening to music.  I think part of their "like speakers" sound comes from that open factor.
> 
> They really float on your head to after the first couple of times you put them on, granted everyone has different head shapes. I have been lucky enough to find just about every headphone comfy.  Except for the 770 pro digging into my skull.'
> 
> On another note the LCD-2's are good for plants, they can listen to the same music you are ;D


 
  LCD-2, the philodendron's friend!


----------



## perrew

KingStyles, can you elaborate a little more on the BA and LiquidFire, what do they do right/wrong?
  Tks P

  
  Quote: 





kingstyles said:


> I can honestly say now that I can recommend the lcd2 with the BA. I didnt like the pairing at a previous meet, but I swapped the driver tube for one that I figured would pair with the lcd2 better and it seemed to be a success. Also the liquid fire for the price is a great amp to run the lcd2 if you want a nice powerful amp. The big surprise was how good the little monster, the schiit Lyr did with them. More than enough power to drive them. It just lost a little clarity and detail to the bigger amps.


----------



## Equus

Quote: 





kingstyles said:


> I can honestly say now that I can recommend the lcd2 with the BA. I didnt like the pairing at a previous meet, but I swapped the driver tube for one that I figured would pair with the lcd2 better and it seemed to be a success. Also the liquid fire for the price is a great amp to run the lcd2 if you want a nice powerful amp. The big surprise was how good the little monster, the schiit Lyr did with them. More than enough power to drive them. It just lost a little clarity and detail to the bigger amps.


 


 I think you were in the room when the string of profanities came out of my mouth when listening to the Lyr and asking how much it cost.  Heh.  Agreed about the clarity, but man that thing can pump out bass.  Not the most control, but for that price you really can't complain.  And it didn't run as hot as I remember the Asgard running, though by the time I got to listen to it the volume knob was quite warm.

  
  Quote: 





perrew said:


> KingStyles, can you elaborate a little more on the BA and LiquidFire, what do they do right/wrong?
> Tks P


 


 Can't speak for Josh, but in my listening and talking to people, the BA had great clarity, control, and spot on tones.  LF has a little less control and detail, though I think the weight in the lower areas felt very full and a touch towards the organic side, which is my preference.  I think Dan listened to both and had the opinion that neither amp really thumps like the Benchmark DAC1 Pre that curbfeeler has, but are more toward an even and detailed presentation, so it's a matter of taste.  Caveat to the impressions is that the LF is still a proto-type and we have no idea if rolling better tubes in will change things, and Josh has done some great research, testing, and financial investing into the tubes on the BA.


----------



## AustinHorn

Quote: 





headphoneaddict said:


> I spent more time with the DACmini and LCD-2 and I can't imagine needing more than the stock gain of 8 with these LCD-2.  Normal listening for me is between 9-11 o'clock (via USB DAC), while 12 is fairly loud, 2-3 o'clock is uncomfortable, and 5 o'clock maxed is deafening/earsplitting with good impact with no clipping.  It definitely isn't running out of juice.  So, not only is frequency response and soundstage a good match for the LCD-2, but power is more than I can ever use.  I'm listening to LCD-2 right now with the volume at only 10 o'clock and I'm worried because my wife can hear my music across the room while she sleeps.
> 
> Even my 9v ALO Amphora has enough power for the LCD-2, but it's mids are a little recessed vs the DACmini, and so it doesn't help bring out detail in the LCD-2 mids which I think are a little recessed themselves - so the DACmini helps the LCD-2 mids in my opinion, as well as adding some of that missing sparkle in the highs that I complained about before.  It manages to do this in a more refined and less aggressive manner than my HDP which was also quite powerful with the LCD-2.
> 
> ...


 

 Sorry for the slow response. I've been working 18 hour days lately & have had very little time to read/post. Too tired. Regarding the gain, I had the standard gain unit here at the same time with the higher gain unit, & I did feel that even the LCD-2 benefited from the extra juice, though I admit the extra power was mostly targeted at both my HE5LE & Beyer 880 600 ohm cans. What really surprised me what that all my IEMs still sounded just as good as with the stock unit. I was not expecting that.  I feel now that this unit can probably be a good match with the HE6, should I ever opt to buy one. Right now, I'm perfectly happy with what I have can-wise.
   
  But back to the two DACminis & LCD-2, I went back an forth between them on the same songs for several days & I always felt that the extra juice the turned-up mini provided a little something extra to the mix over the stock unit.  I no longer have the stock unit, but I know I never maxed out the volume on either unit since I don't listen to my music very loud.  In fact the thing I love about the LCD-2 is that it allows me to listen to my favorite songs at normal listening volumes & not miss anything. I just love the combo of the DACmini & the LCD-2. IMHO, a great match.


----------



## rgs9200m

My Rudistor RP010B is proving to be a wonderful match for the Audezes the more I listen. The frequency response curve with the Rudistor is as good as it gets.
  The Rudistor really improves the transparency of the LCD2s remarkably. I actually think the LCD2s may be the best of all my phones with the Rudistor.
  I never thought I would say that I liked the LCD2s so much because of problematic results with other amps (a sort of honk or slow sound) but this amp-phone synergy is really fine.
  While the other phones have some more detail and impact and speed in percussion and other transients, the impact is still quite nice on the LCD2s with the Rudistor
  and the mids and highs are top notch--refined and not aggressive at all but still with lots of information, both tonal information and spatial.
  Soundstaging with the RP010B is as spooky real as the Senn HD800s.
  The LCD2s are really nice on older classic and 60s CDS that have piercing highs and shouty mids. The sound is refined and stop me from wincing.
  But the solid state RP010B really keeps everything mostly controlled and naturally grounded on the LCD2s with most CDs.
  On a few CDs, there is still a minor loss of control in the upper bass compared to the other phones, but it is rare enough and mild enough not to be a real problem,
  and on SACDs there is total control.
  The Rudistor really controls the LCD2s well in the mids, especially vocals and guitars, as the LCD2s had a woozy, annoying slowness with these (a mild tunnel-like sound)
  with other amps. But the Rudistor miraculously cures this.
  So, that my latest 2 cents. Thanks for reading.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote: 





austinhorn said:


> Sorry for the slow response. I've been working 18 hour days lately & have had very little time to read/post. Too tired. Regarding the gain, I had the standard gain unit here at the same time with the higher gain unit, & I did feel that even the LCD-2 benefited from the extra juice, though I admit the extra power was mostly targeted at both my HE5LE & Beyer 880 600 ohm cans. What really surprised me what that all my IEMs still sounded just as good as with the stock unit. I was not expecting that.  I feel now that this unit can probably be a good match with the HE6, should I ever opt to buy one. Right now, I'm perfectly happy with what I have can-wise.
> 
> But back to the two DACminis & LCD-2, I went back an forth between them on the same songs for several days & I always felt that the extra juice the turned-up mini provided a little something extra to the mix over the stock unit.  I no longer have the stock unit, but I know I never maxed out the volume on either unit since I don't listen to my music very loud.  In fact the thing I love about the LCD-2 is that it allows me to listen to my favorite songs at normal listening volumes & not miss anything. I just love the combo of the DACmini & the LCD-2. IMHO, a great match.


 

 Since I got the DACmini *I've listened to the LCD-2 more in the past 4 weeks than I did in the entire previous 6 months* of owning the LCD-2 before the DACmini arrived.  That says something right there.


----------



## kwkarth

Centrance products are indeed, honest to goodness sonic triumphs in their own right.


----------



## Duckman

Sorry if it's been asked, HeadphoneAddict, but is your Dacmini a better match than your ZDT setup?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote: 





duckman said:


> Sorry if it's been asked, HeadphoneAddict, but is your Dacmini a better match than your ZDT setup?


 

 My ZDT is what makes the LCD-2 sound darker to me than I like, even when using it with a brighter tube that didn't make the K1000 sound dark (Sylvania gold pin 5751).  It has huge power reserves with the LCD-2 and can play at night-club volume levels, but I just don't get the desired amount of air and ambience out of the ZDT with the LCD-2.  The ZDT is a better amp for my HD800, HE-5 LE, HE-5, HD600, HF-2 and LA7000 though - not to say that the DACmini is not very good with those as well, because it is, but it's a considerably cheaper amp and not on the same level.  
   
  But for the LCD-2 I find the DACmini is a better match for sure, and my favorite in the house with them.  I'm also finding the HE-6 out of the ZDT sound a little too soft and smooth at times, while the DACmini wakes them up a bit and drives them a little tighter as well (like the SR-71b), even though it wont play quite as loud with them at max volume.  The DACmini is also slightly more forward sounding than the ZDT, with a slightly smaller soundstage, although it's pretty close to the Amphora or WA6 in the soundstage department which isn't bad for a sub $1000 amp.
   
  My Amphora and WA6 come in second in synergy, but both are less powerful than the DACmini and leave me wishing for more, followed by my HDP which is very powerful with LCD-2 but a little on the aggressive side and not as transparent sounding.  Based on what I heard at RMAF, I think my SR-71b in balanced mode would do quite well with LCD-2, but out of the 1/8" jack it was disappointing.


----------



## rydenfan

Hey guys. I have read through about 90% of this thread but may have obviously missed a few points. I was curious if anyone has experience with any of the Ray Samuels' amps with the LCD-2?


----------



## Duckman

I appreciate your detailed answer. Helps much.
   
  Cheers!


----------



## rydenfan

Also, I have seen a few recommendations for the Woo2 OTL amp on here but not much in regards to the Woo22. Has anyone tried the combo of the 22 with the LCD-2? I like OTL designs but I am also a big fan of the 6SN7 tube family so I would welcome some insight.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





rydenfan said:


> Hey guys. I have read through about 90% of this thread but may have obviously missed a few points. I was curious if anyone has experience with any of the Ray Samuels' amps with the LCD-2?


 
  Oh, you must have missed all of those posts.  Well, they're their, I assure you.
   





   
  Just giving you a hard time....   Not much mention of Ray's stuff with the LCD-2s except for the SR-70B, which had nice things said about it.


----------



## davo50

Quote: 





rydenfan said:


> Also, I have seen a few recommendations for the Woo2 OTL amp on here but not much in regards to the Woo22. Has anyone tried the combo of the 22 with the LCD-2? I like OTL designs but I am also a big fan of the 6SN7 tube family so I would welcome some insight.


 
   
  I am using LCD-2 with Woo 22 (as well as several other people).  To my ears, the combo is awesome, some tubes roll better than others for this phone.


----------



## RedBull

Larry, do you know if DACmini is also a pre-amp?  I see a Line-out port at the back, but nowhere it mentioned as a pre-amp.  Would the output from the Line-out can be adjusted by the volume control?
   
  And the
  Output Power
  1.5W (total), drives 50...600 Ohm headphones.
  I would say it's 750mWpc, don't you think?  onto what? 50 ohms?
   
  I know you may not know these information, but who knows?  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  I'm looking a DAC with pre-amp builtin for LCD-2 and been lurking around finding more information about Eastern Electric Minimax.  You heard before Larry?


----------



## RedBull

On the amp side, has anyone heard BCL and Burson HA160?  any comment?


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





rydenfan said:


> Also, I have seen a few recommendations for the Woo2 OTL amp on here but not much in regards to the Woo22. Has anyone tried the combo of the 22 with the LCD-2? I like OTL designs but I am also a big fan of the 6SN7 tube family so I would welcome some insight.




   
  Quote: 





davo50 said:


> I am using LCD-2 with Woo 22 (as well as several other people).  To my ears, the combo is awesome, some tubes roll better than others for this phone.


 
   

 X2, I am listening to that combo right now. It is the one that I listen to most often, and there is much more on it if you want to sift through the main Woo thread.


----------



## AustinHorn

Quote: 





redbull said:


> Larry, do you know if DACmini is also a pre-amp?  I see a Line-out port at the back, but nowhere it mentioned as a pre-amp.  Would the output from the Line-out can be adjusted by the volume control?
> 
> And the
> Output Power
> ...


 
  The DACmini CX, the current unit that is available, isn't a pre-amp. They will be coming out with the PX model soon that will have a 25 watt power amp built in so you can connect it directly to unpowered speakers. Otherwise it will be exactly the same. But it will likely cost a lot more than the CX. I use my CX unit outputs to link up with my powered AudioEngine 5 speakers & that makes a great match.
   
  Here is a link to what Stereophile had to say about the new PX:
http://www.stereophile.com/content/centrace-dacmini-px
   
  Regarding the EE. Minimax DAC. I have one & love it. Highly recommended as long as you go Coax/BNC connecter route. The USB isn't the way to go with the Minimax. That 32 bit dac chip in it produces some of the best sound I've ever heard. If it had a remote control capability, I'd sell my modded Benchmark HDR dac/amp. It's that good! Get a USB/BNC converter to go with it & you'll be very happy with it if a PC will be your source.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote: 





redbull said:


> Larry, do you know if DACmini is also a pre-amp?  I see a Line-out port at the back, but nowhere it mentioned as a pre-amp.  Would the output from the Line-out can be adjusted by the volume control?
> 
> And the
> Output Power
> ...


 

 DACmini comes standard with a fixed line-out, but on request the RCA outputs can be routed through the volume pot.


----------



## rgs9200m

In response to the question about Ray Samuels amps with LCD2:
  My B52 is now truly excellent with the LCD2s. By the way, Bendix 6900 tubes do a great job with the B52.
  See my post here (#1128):
  http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/496130/audeze-lcd2-vs-sennheiser-hd800/1125#post_7334427


----------



## lyramax

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *AustinHorn* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


 
  Which DAC chip does the EE Minimax use?


----------



## SoupRKnowva

Quote: 





lyramax said:


> Which DAC chip does the EE Minimax use?


 
  the ESS sabre 9018 which is their flagship


----------



## AustinHorn

Quote: 





souprknowva said:


> the ESS sabre 9018 which is their flagship


 

 Correct & although there are a number of dacs that have that wonderful chip, the Minimax sounds much better than most, & almost as good as a couple that cost 3-6 times it's price. If you can avoid being stuck with using it's USB connection, I highly recommend it.  I've even used it as a source for the DACmini listening to my LCD-2 & with the tube engaged it doesn't get much better than that SEed.


----------



## RedBull

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *AustinHorn* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> The DACmini CX, the current unit that is available, isn't a pre-amp. They will be coming out with the PX model soon that will have a 25 watt power amp built in so you can connect it directly to unpowered speakers. Otherwise it will be exactly the same. But it will likely cost a lot more than the CX. I use my CX unit outputs to link up with my powered AudioEngine 5 speakers & that makes a great match.
> 
> ...


 
  Thanks for the info, but I thought USB to BNC converter still have all the weaknesses inherited from USB?  like jitter, 16/44.1 limitation?
  
  Quote: 





headphoneaddict said:


> DACmini comes standard with a fixed line-out, but on request the RCA outputs can be routed through the volume pot.


 
  Thanks Larry, then it is not for me as I'm looking for pre-amp as well.


----------



## Jibz

Sounded great out of a LEBEN CS300x at a meet a couple months back. Really got into the music!


----------



## matthewh133

Quote: 





jibz said:


> Sounded great out of a LEBEN CS300x at a meet a couple months back. Really got into the music!


 

 Yes, a very nice combo, but too dark and smooth for my tastes.


----------



## Carlsan

Quote: 





austinhorn said:


> Correct & although there are a number of dacs that have that wonderful chip, the Minimax sounds much better than most, & almost as good as a couple that cost 3-6 times it's price. If you can avoid being stuck with using it's USB connection, I highly recommend it.  I've even used it as a source for the DACmini listening to my LCD-2 & with the tube engaged it doesn't get much better than that SEed.


 
   
  I use my minimax to play pc music files with this: http://www.musicdirect.com/product/89602
  MUSICAL FIDELITY - V-LINK USB TO COAX CONVERTER
  The V-LINK is a 24-bit 96K asynchronous USB interface with S/PDIF output on either RCA or Toslink
   
  My minimax sounds great, even playing unconverted Flac 96 KhZ 24 bit files.


----------



## elnero

Has anyone been able to compare or at least heard both the Burson 160D and the CEntrance DACmini?


----------



## AustinHorn

Quote: 





elnero said:


> Has anyone been able to compare or at least heard both the Burson 160D and the CEntrance DACmini?


 
  I'd love to hear a comparison too. I love my DACmini CX a lot but it really isn't a preamp like the 160D & the Burson got a rave review on 6 Moons. I'm worried that when the true pre-amp version of the mini comes out, it may be a lot more expensive than the Burson.  Some posts here have indicated that the dac on the 160D is a weak spot but that isn't at all what [size=x-small]Srajan Ebaen of 6-Moons found & over time I've found his equipment reviews to be spot on with my own experiences with the same gear.[/size]
   
  So like elnero, I'm waiting to hear how the two compare, especially with the LCD-2s (in my case).


----------



## Jay Listens

Just an FYI guys. We offer a variable out option on the DACmini CX. Please PM me for details.


----------



## wakeride74

Quote: 





elnero said:


> Has anyone been able to compare or at least heard both the Burson 160D and the CEntrance DACmini?


 


  +1


----------



## 24phun

I'm not feeling the love with my Apex Peak. I've tried 6 different tubes, it still sounds (comparatively) dark and veiled to my Benchmark DAC HPA.
  This is the only headphone where the Benchmark HPA seems clearly (to me) superior to the Peak. The Peak is AMAZING w/my HD800s, but LCD-2 - not so much.


----------



## Equus

Quote: 





24phun said:


> I'm not feeling the love with my Apex Peak. I've tried 6 different tubes, it still sounds (comparatively) dark and veiled to my Benchmark DAC HPA.
> This is the only headphone where the Benchmark HPA seems clearly (to me) superior to the Peak. The Peak is AMAZING w/my HD800s, but LCD-2 - not so much.


 


 Are you using the Benchmark as a DAC for the Peak, or something else?
   
  I haven't spent much time with a Benchmark, but I've heard the Peak a lot and a little bit of the Benchmark DAC1 PRE, and I would not have described the Peak as veiled in comparison.  Caveat is that I haven't used the Benchmark as a DAC at all, and my impressions of the Peak are through my Assemblage 2.7 and with the Volcano power supply.  I also personally usually find the HD800 a little hot on the treble, especially in comparison to the LCD-2.


----------



## USAudio

Has anyone tried the *Portal Audio Panache* with the LCD-2's?
  http://www.portalaudio.com/panache.html
  It's _rumored_ to be based on a circuit designed by Nelson Pass.
   
  Per the website, "[size=small]... headphone output does not differ from the main output path except for the addition of a simple protection device[/size]".
  http://www.portalaudio.com/headphone_use.html
   
  It's rated at: [size=x-small]100 w X 2 @ 8 ohms[/size]
   
  With the 50 ohm LCD-2's, I believe that works out to 16 watts RMS ... more than enough to make the LCD-2's sing!


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





usaudio said:


> Has anyone tried the *Portal Audio Panache* with the LCD-2's?
> http://www.portalaudio.com/panache.html
> It's _rumored_ to be based on a circuit designed by Nelson Pass.
> 
> ...


 
  Looks very interesting!  The question in my mind is what sort of noise floor and micro dynamics does this amp have?
   
  Cool find!  Let us know how it sounds!!


----------



## USAudio

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *kwkarth* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Looks very interesting!  The question in my mind is what sort of noise floor and micro dynamics does this amp have?
> 
> Cool find!  Let us know how it sounds!!


 
  It's actually been available for many years but not sure anyone's tried the LCD-2's with it, or the HE-6's for that matter?  Should have plenty of power!


----------



## tjf120

Anyone using Peachtree Nove or iDecco with LCD-2s?


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





tjf120 said:


> Anyone using Peachtree Nove or iDecco with LCD-2s?


 


  I have used the iDecco and MusicBox with the LCD-2.  Do you have questions about the performance?


----------



## RedBull

Anyone use this with LCD-2?
  http://www.headfonia.com/first-impression-cec-hd53n/2/

   
  It takes both balanced and single ended headphones, as well as small efficient speakers through the speaker posts at the back panel.
  Power output of 4.7W per channel at 32 Ohms through the balanced drive, and it’s 18W per channel at 4 Ohms for the speaker terminal.
   
  For single ended connection, the left combo jack is marked “Hi” while the right combo jack is marked as “Low”, terms that I assume refer to choose the appropriate port depending on your headphone impedance. Then there are three small buttons with the following functions:
 - HP/SP chooses between activating the headphone out or the speaker out.
 - GAIN toggles between low gain and high gain.
 - INPUT selects either an XLR or RCA input.
   
  "_During this time I also auditioned the Burson HA-160, the Lehmann Audio Black Cube Linear, and the Musica 40 amplifiers, all of which I find to have a distinct enough sound from each other. I was also impressed in how flexible the HD800 was during this listening, as the HD800 was able to have multiple characters depending on the amplifier being used._
_The CEC HD53N stood out among the four amplifiers as being the sweetest sounding amplifier in the bunch. _"
   
  Sounds plentiful for the power hunger LCD-2?


----------



## chris.d.m.

Can anyone else comment further on the LCD-2's compatibility with the Grace M902B?
  Thanks!


----------



## oqvist

Suppose not many can answer this but is it possible to get a considerably wider, deeper and more believable soundstage out of the LCD-2 then on a Head One? Suppose only 1-2 may be able to answer this question .
   
  Listened to  a lot of movie soundtracks, classical and movies as of late and the LCD-2 do frustrate me I have to admit.


----------



## KingStyles

I havent heard the head 1 but my skylla/BA combo seems to get the largest stage that I heard. Going balanced seems to add a little width to them which helps there soundstage.


----------



## bluemonkeyflyer

I have a set of LCD 2's on the way.  I have a vintage HeadRoom Standard amp that will work (maybe) temporarily. I've tried RCA 2-channel connections from the Zone A fixed, VCR1 and VCR2 ("Record") output jacks from my McIntosh MX-136 pre/pro to the input jacks of the HeadRoom amp.  None of these connections allow volume control via the MX-136.   What I want to do is buy a new amp that will work with my McIntosh MX-136 pre/pro and allow volume adjustments with this pre/pro's remote control.  Anyone know if this is possible and, if so, what kind of headphone amp would work this way?


----------



## chris.d.m.

Sorry, I have to bug you guys with another plea for any Grace M902(b) - LCD2 impressions...
  These two compatible ?? Anyone?  : )


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





bluemonkeyflyer said:


> I have a set of LCD 2's on the way.  I have a vintage HeadRoom Standard amp that will work (maybe) temporarily. I've tried RCA 2-channel connections from the Zone A fixed, VCR1 and VCR2 ("Record") output jacks from my McIntosh MX-136 pre/pro to the input jacks of the HeadRoom amp.  None of these connections allow volume control via the MX-136.   What I want to do is buy a new amp that will work with my McIntosh MX-136 pre/pro and allow volume adjustments with this pre/pro's remote control.  Anyone know if this is possible and, if so, what kind of headphone amp would work this way?


 
  The problem is not with the Headroom amp, the problem is with how you connected the McIntosh.  You need to tap into the variable output connections on the MX-136.  No headphone amp will do this for you.  You have to do this.


----------



## bluemonkeyflyer

That's what I figured I need to do. As a noobie, though, I've not been able to locate the variable outputs from the MX-136 pre/pro. 

I emailed Chuck Hinton at McIntosh and thought I'd ask the Head-Fi forum, too. 

Thanks for the help.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





bluemonkeyflyer said:


> That's what I figured I need to do. As a noobie, though, I've not been able to locate the variable outputs from the MX-136 pre/pro.
> 
> I emailed Chuck Hinton at McIntosh and thought I'd ask the Head-Fi forum, too.
> 
> Thanks for the help.


 

 Hold on there lightnin' before you strike somebody!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  Not so fast!
   
  How do you have the MX-136 hooked up to you speaker amplifiers?


----------



## fabriciom

Hello, can you guys recommend me an entry level amp that will work ok while I save money for a phonitor?
   
  Behringer mini amp?
   
   
  -Thanks


----------



## bluemonkeyflyer

kwkarth,
   
  Sorry, I was not clear.  I am a noobie with headphones and headphone amps. I will soon receive a set of Audeze LCD 2 headphones.  I plan to buy a nice headphone amp but currently have a circa 1980's HeadRoom 'Standard' headphone amp. I want to use my McIntosh MX136 pre/pro to remotely control volume adjustments of a headphone amp  I have not been able to find variable line out connections from my MX136 pre/pro that will allow volume control of the headphone amp by the MX136; and I don't know if this is possible.  
   
  I have my B&W 5.1 speakers connected as follows:
   
  Sources connected to MX136 pre/pro with AudioQuest (AQ) RCA, toslink, and HDMI cables.
  MX136 connected to Plasma Monitor with AQ HDMI cable.
  MX136 connected to McIntosh MC402 & MC205 amps with AQ Balanced Columbia IC's.
  MC402 connected to B&W 803S front L/R speakers with AQ Rockefeller biwire cables.
  MC205 connected to B&W 805S surround L/R speakers with AQ Rockefeller biwire cables.
  MC205 connected to B&W HTM2 center speaker with AQ MontBlanc cable.
  (2 channels of the MC205 are unused and available for Zone 2)
  MX136 connected to B&W ASW700 Subwoofer with AQ sub cable.
   
  Vintage HeadRoom 'Standard' headphone amp tried from each of the following MX136 jacks:
   
  Zone A Fixed out RCA jacks.
  VCR1 (Record) out RCA jacks.
  VCR2 (Record) out RCA jacks.
  Zone A out RCA jacks (the 2 of 8 jacks designated for front L/R).
  All these jacks send fixed line signals to the HeadRoom amp, so volume adjustments can only be made with the manual volume knob on the HeadRoom amp.
   
  So, my question is whether or not it is even possible to setup a system that will mute the external speakers and allow headphone volume adjustments by the MX136 pre/pro OR will I have to buy a headphone amp with on-board remote control?
   
  Is there anyone here who uses a MX136 that can help answer these questions?
   
  Thanks for the help.


----------



## perrew

All speakers seems to be connected to the MC402&205 amps so just leave them off?


----------



## bluemonkeyflyer

Yes, I can turn off the speaker amps as a work-around for muting the external speakers but I still have to drag my lazy butt off the couch every time I want to adjust the headphone volume.  I "need" remote volume control out of my MX136!  ;o


----------



## perrew

But the Pre outs to the MC402 must have volume control how else do you control the volume on the speakers.
  So if there are no more pre outs you either unhook the MC402 or use two y-connects and turn of the MC402 for headphones?
   
  This pic http://www.mcintoshlabs.com/products/1078.asp?action=imagePopup&imageId=pd_t_img2 lower right hand corner you have two RCA for the fronts use those.


----------



## bluemonkeyflyer

Thanks for the willingness to troubleshoot.
   
  What you suggest is exactly what Chuck Hinton, engineer at McIntosh, advised me to do.  I use balanced IC's between MX136 and MC402 amp.  The Zone A Outputs (RCA) you reference (with picture link) are unused and available.  I connected those Front R/L jacks to the HeadRoom amp.  Changing the volume on the external speakers through the MX136 works just fine but has no effect on the HeadRoom amp.  Chuck said he has no idea why this does not work.
   
  Maybe it's a limitation of the HeadRoom??  I don't know.  It's very basic with R/L RCA input jacks on the back and on the front it has on/off, process on/off, and volume knob.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





bluemonkeyflyer said:


> Thanks for the willingness to troubleshoot.
> 
> What you suggest is exactly what Chuck Hinton, engineer at McIntosh, advised me to do.  I use balanced IC's between MX136 and MC402 amp.  The Zone A Outputs (RCA) you reference (with picture link) are unused and available.  I connected those Front R/L jacks to the HeadRoom amp.  Changing the volume on the external speakers through the MX136 works just fine but has no effect on the HeadRoom amp.  Chuck said he has no idea why this does not work.
> 
> Maybe it's a limitation of the HeadRoom??  I don't know.  It's very basic with R/L RCA input jacks on the back and on the front it has on/off, process on/off, and volume knob.


 
  It can't be a limitation of the Headroom amp.  Any amp used thusly would act exactly the same way.  There must be some configuration setting in the Mac Pre/Pro to switch the A zone outs from fixed to variable.  Go through your user manual to see if that isn't so.  If it isn't configurable, then it won't work with any headphone amp, in which case you'll need to use a fixed level output to feed the Headroom and manually adjust the volume to the headphones.  BTW, how far away do you intend to be from the headphone amp with your headphones?  You can't be more than about 6 feet max.  It is sonically, far more preferable to feed your headphone amp with a fixed line out and adjust the headphone volume with the volume control on the headamp, so why not run a long pair of RCA cables to the headamp which you will locate near your seating / listening position?


----------



## grokit

Agreed but if you really, really want remote attenuation for your fixed line out you could try something like this:
   

http://www.audiophileproducts.com/masspreamp


----------



## fabriciom

Quote: 





fabriciom said:


> Hello, can you guys recommend me an entry level amp that will work ok while I save money for a phonitor?
> 
> Behringer mini amp?
> 
> ...


 
  ¿Hola?


----------



## bluemonkeyflyer

Mystery Solved.
   
  kwkarth and perrew,
   
  Thank you for your replies and suggestions.  I told you I'm a headphone/amp newbie!  Your suggestion to run a longer RCA cable set to the listening position never crossed my mind.  That's the easiest 'fix', for sure!
   
  Here's where I dropped the ball:
   
  The McIntosh MX136 pre/pro sends variable line out signals via RCA Analog, Only.  Although I correctly connected a pair of RCA's from the MX136 Zone A Pre-amp front R/L jacks to the HeadRoom amp, I forgot to check, until just now, that "the little blue dot" next to the Zone A source indicator on the display panel was "OFF" (NOT illuminated).  When the blue dot is "ON"  (or illuminated), this indicates a Digital signal from the source has been selected. When the blue dot is "OFF" (not illuminated), this indicates that an Analog signal from the source has been selected. So, with the blue dot set to "ON",  the HeadRoom amp receives no signal at all.  Toggling the MX136 remote control by alternately pressing the Source's remote control button alternately turns the blue dot "ON" and "OFF".  In order for the MX136 to actually send a signal to the HeadRoom amp, the blue dot must be "OFF" (not illuminated) which means that the source's analog signal has been selected.  Now, it works like a charm!  I can now use the MX136 remote to change the volume.
   
  Now, I just have to decide what headphone amp to buy.  I'm seriously considering the CEntrance DacMini,  Benchmark DAC1 HDR, Schiit Lyr, and Meier Concerto.  The Audeze LCD 2 should be ready soon.  I sure wish they'd replace the open cell foam with a leather encased pad.  
   
  Thanks, everyone, for the help.


----------



## Equus

Quote: 





fabriciom said:


> ¿Hola?


 


  Not to sound confrontational, but have you read any of the posts in this thread?  I know it's long and we get off track a lot, but there are a lot of different recommendations in here.
   
  Personally, I can't really help you much because most of the amps I've spent a lot of time with hooked to the LCD-2 are either not cheap or not widely available.  From limited contacts at meets: Schiit amps were OK, especially for the money.  If you can DIY, β22 sounded pretty good.


----------



## landgreen

Is the WooWA2 a good match with the LCD- 2?
  Thanks


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





landgreen said:


> Is the WooWA2 a good match with the LCD- 2?
> Thanks


 


 Yes. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Quite an excellent pairing IMO.


----------



## sperandeo

The Lyr was designed for the LCD2's and it's had some great reviews. I just ordered one yesterday. I'll post my thoughts when I receive it.


----------



## RedBull

I read a lot of good thing about Violectric V200, especially with its 2700 mW output at 50 ohms, sounds deliciously good for LCD-2.

   
  Sorry for the lauzy picture.
   
  But I can't find any head to head comparison with BCL (which I have).  Would anyone care to shed some light for those?  Thanks.


----------



## sferic

Schiit Lyr


----------



## bildar

I have been using the headphone amp built into my Mac C38 preamp. I also use a Mac 7009 cd player and white Audio Technica cables. I don't know the model of the cables. I have tried a couple of cable extensions (canare, kimbercable) so I might recline on my couch but I haven't found anything I like as much as the supplied cable from Audeze. I wish I had ordered with a slightly longer cable although that would affect the sound quality. I think I am just going to set up a folding chair or just move the couch five feet closer and park myself next to the preamp. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 The LCD-2's are astounding. I am curious about headphone amps but I am not going to rush into anything.


----------



## Equus

Not a bad choice, bildar.  Doing a massive switch out of multiple components in your signal chain means you won't know for sure what part is doing what change.  Get used to the sound of the LCD-2's as they are in your setup, then you can figure out if you want or need anything else.  You might find it's not worth it to you.  Just getting new shinies just for the sake of new shinies is probably not advisable...even in our wallet-challenging hobby.


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





redbull said:


> I read a lot of good thing about Violectric V200, especially with its 2700 mW output at 50 ohms, sounds deliciously good for LCD-2.
> 
> 
> Sorry for the lauzy picture.
> ...


 
   
  The Lehman is detailed, lean and quick.  It has enough power to push the LCD2 8 tenths of the way home.  But for a bigger soundstage at any volume, there are better amps out there, if the source is up to it.  I sold mine.


----------



## RedBull

SP Wild, you sell your BCL replaced with Phoenix?
   
  Have you tried Vio V200 before?


----------



## bluemonkeyflyer

I've read this entire thread...whew!  A lot of great information; thank you all.
   
  My LCD2's will arrive tomorrow.  I am considering my short list of amps:
  Centrance DacMini
  Audio-gd Fun (A)
  Audio-gd NFB 10ES
  Audio-gd NFB 10WM
   
  I will likely use my McIntosh MX136 pre/pro as pre-amp.  All the balanced outs from the MX136 are used for my speaker amps.  I think I can use the MX136 digital coax out to connect to the head amp.  I'm not sure if the coax is 75 ohms, or not; will have to do a bit of research on this.  Will this connection method allow full use of the Audio-gd NFB's balanced topography?
   
  I suppose I could also try the coax out from my Denon 3800BDCI player to all of these amps to utilize their DACs and compare to the McIntosh MX136 DAC.
   
  And, finally, any opinions about the Audeze balanced cable vs other balanced cables will be much appreciated.


----------



## Kremer930

I dont have LCD2's, well yet anyway, but sitting here listening to my Lyr with HE6's from a Mac via DacMagic....all I can say is that the Lyr is fantastic value.  Even if you make alternative choices in the end due to taste and preference, it is worth your time to spend some quality listening time with a Lyr.  Make sure that the standard tubes have been burnt in properly with at least 10 hours play time as they develop additional air and sparkle. 
   
  I put some Genelex ECC88 tubes in but have come back to the stock tubes as they improve with play time and have some wonderful bass.


----------



## Adda

Quote: 





dbel84 said:


> I did most of my listening with an amp that will be coming to market shortly - it is being "unveiled" at canjam. It is the Liquid Fire amp from Cavalli Audio. It is a tube hybrid, high voltage for the tubes to keep them operating at their most linear point, dual 30V rails for the class A Mosfet output stage which allows 42V p-p swing. DC coupled so no caps or transformers n the signal path and a servo which keeps the offset at zero.
> 
> It is a wonderfully powerful amp and well worth the audition. Cavalli Audio is also releasing a solid state amp, the "Liquid Gold" which will have similar voltage swing but will be faster.
> 
> ..dB


 


  Interesting, it seems to be of a similar design as my Aragon 18k.
   
  Edit: oops that was ages ago, didn't realize the length of this thread.
  Oh and my Aragon doesn't use tubes either


----------



## eertelppa

Read through most of the thread.
   
  I really do not want to muddle up the thread but I mainly want to give a small background and then ask about suggestions for tube amps (lightly mentioned throughout). Please feel free to take this to a pm or ask me to shut up.
   
  The skinny:
   
  own -
  technics 1210 turntable
  grado 225s
  shure se530
  audio technica ad700 (gaming)
   
  listen -
  postal service
  as cities burn
  maylene/sons disaster
  the antlers
  michael hurley
  bon iver
  margot and the nuclear so and so's
  we came as romans
  brand new
  say anything
  etc etc (basically a huge variety either folk or harder stuff)
   
  want -
  to eventually add an phono preamp and amp to my system to use headphones currently owned. eventually to use speakers as well for others to listen and enjoy the music.
   
  thoughts -
  --Dad trying to convince me to get mcintosh 225 (275 cant remember which) amp and klipsch speakers (heresy)
  --I want to DIY a tube amp
  --Would be nice if amp could be fairly versatile
  --Interested in purchasing lcd-2's to use (out of the hd800 and similar phones i have a keen interest in these, although will go to a meet in a few weeks so that may be the most beneficial thing as opposed to posting questions....)
  --Have a love for tubes
  --Budget $1000ish but I am very slow with things (I have the money but it took me two months to finally buy a cartridge for my tt) so I plan to do things in steps so budget is flexible.
  --I know getting an amp to be versatile takes away from its superiority of certain skills and its better to have specific amps for specific items. do not care to own 5 amps but could live with 2.
   
  Any advice appreciated.
   
  Thanks,
   
  Austin


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





eertelppa said:


> Read through most of the thread.
> 
> I really do not want to muddle up the thread but I mainly want to give a small background and then ask about suggestions for tube amps (lightly mentioned throughout). Please feel free to take this to a pm or ask me to shut up.
> 
> ...


 
  Austin,
  Are you looking for all tubes or hybrid?


----------



## eertelppa

Either really, as long as it has some tube loving and can fit my needs the best. (Don't get me wrong while I _only_ want tubes I have read about the [size=11.0pt]β[/size]22 and others)
   
  Would prefer a DIY project as to me I love learning and making stuff and would like to better understand about the amps better. My dad has tubes in his mcintosh's and I love the sound. I know I listen to a lot of harder music as opposed to a lot of bob dylan, but I find myself on month spurts listening to folk, instrumental, and a lot of softer stuff.
  And for some reason (idk exactly why) think the LCD-2s would be a great addition to a small select family (I am all about spending a little extra for quality over quantity and that goes for all components not just headphones)
   
  Currently building a 5 foot table (mmm black walnut) for storing my vinyl / putting my tt and equipment on so I enjoy the projects, plus it is an excuse to go visit my family and work on something with my dad in his shop.
   
  Thanks again for the reply, the response alone means a lot.
   
  Austin
   
  ps: I realize there are more appropriate areas to discuss this but it seems like they get looked over and quickly bogged down and since I spent so much time reading this thread felt someone would lend a hand. Sorry if it is bothering anyone getting sort of off topic.


----------



## Equus

Don't know too much about DIY, since I haven't built anything.  Maybe an EHHA?
   
  And yeah, there's different place to discuss, but there's a lot of crossover around.  Since it sounds like synergy with LCD-2 is one of your possible considerations, this thread is probably as good as any.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





eertelppa said:


> Either really, as long as it has some tube loving and can fit my needs the best. (Don't get me wrong while I _only_ want tubes I have read about the [size=11.0pt]β[/size]22 and others)
> 
> Would prefer a DIY project as to me I love learning and making stuff and would like to better understand about the amps better. My dad has tubes in his mcintosh's and I love the sound. I know I listen to a lot of harder music as opposed to a lot of bob dylan, but I find myself on month spurts listening to folk, instrumental, and a lot of softer stuff.
> And for some reason (idk exactly why) think the LCD-2s would be a great addition to a small select family (I am all about spending a little extra for quality over quantity and that goes for all components not just headphones)
> ...


 
  If you're looking for DIY, I would encourage you to hang out in the DIY forums, but for non DIY, I think the Schiit Lyr is a safe recommendation for a great value/performance all around Hybrid amp.  I'm expecting mine to show up this Thursday and will report on it as it burns in.  Be sure to read Jude's review of same.


----------



## bluemonkeyflyer

I just received my LCD2's.  They are beautiful.  They fit snugly and comfortably.  I ordered them with the stock SE plug.  The box is very nice in high gloss finish.  Audeze was responsive before and after the sale, packaged very carefully with double boxes, and shipped very fast with tracking number.  I placed my order 4 weeks ago.
   
  I am listening from my Denon 3800BDCI variable outs --> McIntosh MX136 pre/pro --> 25 year old HeadRoom Standard (or Premium...I can't tell which) head amp.  I connected the head amp to the pre/pro with a cheap set of Radioshack RCA cables! I'm going out to get a 1/4 to mini adapter so I can try these phones straight out of my MacBook Pro/iTunes.
   
  The SQ is rich, clear, and neutral with deep bass extension, wonderful mids, and smooth highs.  With my upper range hearing loss I bumped up the treble a few tics on the MX136 and the LCD2's sound wonderful!  I can't imagine these cans sounding better with a modern amp and balanced cables, but I'm likely going to buy either the Audio-gd NFB10ES or Centrance DacMini and an Audeze balanced cable to test for myself.  If this provides better SQ, all the better.  If my ears don't discern the difference, I'll sell the amp and balanced cable and keep using my vintage HeadRoom amp.
   
  Thank you all for the 100's of posts, reviews, and opinions that helped me make the decision to buy the LCD2's.


----------



## DeadEars

Hey Austin,
  With your budget, you've pretty well exhausted it after buying the LCD-2's!  Or is that your amp budget?
   
  I'm a big believer in DIY as a learning experience.  The only issue with building tube amps is you really need to be careful, since most tube equipment operates on lethal voltages.  As in: "kill you dead." 
   
  Thiings like Pete Millet's "starving student" amp (http://www.pmillett.com/starving.htm) are a nice place to start to learn about electronics, and to make something that will really sound good.  Or go to the Bottlehead forum and tune in on some of the great kits there (http://www.bottlehead.com/store.php?crn=224). 
   
  Some of the great old Dynakit amps are available in reproduction form, or if you want to save a lot of money, you can buy a vintage version and rebuild it (see http://www.curcioaudio.com/dynadr_3.htm).  If you did that, my recommendation would be a Dynaco integrated amp, the SCA-35.  Turns out it has just the right amount of power to drive the LCD's really well.  The original Dynaco manual even has instructions for how to hook it up.  The only downside is that It's not a very modern circuit, but it can be made to sound really really good.  And it would be "old school" which would probably please your dad!  By the way, Klipsch Cornwalls with McIntosh MC225 amps really do sound very good, although the best I've ever heard MC225's sound is with vintage Quad electrostatic speakers.
   
  I have a Dynaco SCA-35 somewhere in the stack on my TBD shelf, awaiting time to work on it. I think I paid $15 for it at a yard sale.   I'm looking forward to hearing my LCD-2's driven by it.  As I write this, I'm listening to Buffalo Tom metal on my LCD-2's driven by a vintage 1959 Eico HF-81, most of which started life as kits. Mine cost me $35 to buy, plus maybe $150 or so in parts (not including vintage tubes).  A lot of the late 50's through early 70's amps make really fine headphone amps, with claimed outputs in the 15-35 watt range (usually optimistic).  With judicious use of modern parts, and a little upgrading -- especially in the power supply -- many of these amps will go toe-to-toe with today's dedicated headphone amps.  And you can learn a huge amount by restoring one, plus there are a lot of resources on line to help you -- especially for Dynaco!
   
  Hope this helps!
   
  Frank


----------



## kwkarth

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DeadEars* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> Hey Austin,
> With your budget, you've pretty well exhausted it after buying the LCD-2's!  Or is that your amp budget?
> I'm a big believer in DIY as a learning experience.  The only issue with building tube amps is you really need to be careful, since most tube equipment operates on lethal voltages.  As in: "kill you dead."
> ...


 

 Great post Frank!


----------



## MacedonianHero

kwkarth said:


> If you're looking for DIY, I would encourage you to hang out in the DIY forums, but for non DIY, I think the Schiit Lyr is a safe recommendation for a great value/performance all around Hybrid amp.  I'm expecting mine to show up this Thursday and will report on it as it burns in.  Be sure to read Jude's review of same.




Good news Kevin...just did some listening to my LCD-2 + Lyr (arrived today ) and it is a great match. I used the song Magnificent (some really good bass drum at the beginning) from U2's latest album (No Line on the Horizon) and of all the amps I have on hand the punch was the strongest with the Lyr (second the WA2 and the Concerto was the most "polite" in that regard). The WA2 is very good with the LCD-2s IMO, but the Lyr just seems a bit more better suited (and especially for my HE-6s).

With the stock JJ tubes, it is a very clean/neutral amp....I then popped in a pair of Genalex Gold Lion 6922s and now it's every so slightly tubier (and more to my liking).

Please let us know what you think when yours arrives. I'm interested on what you think on how it compares to the other amps you've heard the LCD-2s with.

6W into 32 ohms would be like (3-4W into 50 ohms...please correct me if I'm wrong here....I am a chemical engineer and it's been 20 years since I took an EE course).  It does have sufficient "headroom" to play both my LCD-2s and HE-6s. 

The bass is certainly more visceral, the mids seem more forward and the treble on the LCD-2s doesn't seem as laid back (when compared to either of my 2 other amps). And it's built like a brick Schiit house.  

Now the big question....why is Schiit Audio not charging $899 for this thing?


----------



## tunarat

Quote: 





eertelppa said:


> Read through most of the thread.
> 
> I really do not want to muddle up the thread but I mainly want to give a small background and then ask about suggestions for tube amps (lightly mentioned throughout). Please feel free to take this to a pm or ask me to shut up.
> 
> ...


 

 Advice? Advice? you don't need no stinkin' advice. Grab the mac like dad said.....


----------



## log0

Quote: 





tunarat said:


> Advice? Advice? you don't need no stinkin' advice. Grab the mac like dad said.....


 

 McIntosh tube amps are incredible amplifiers. I had the pleasure of listening to the flagship McIntosh tube amp, the 2301 strapped to a pair of Reference 3a Grand Veenas. This was my proper introduction to hifi audio. There are many people selling MC275 on Audiogon you may want to try there, although your $1000 budget won't get you far.
   
  If you're a single man living by yourself with space in your home, personally I'd save for a proper speaker setup. If you're looking for tube amps in particular, I've also heard that the Audio Research reference series makes some top of the line products. Once you start looking at prices for decent tube amps, you'll see why you made it to head-fi


----------



## eertelppa

*Frank*,
   
  Thanks for the wonderful advice. Yeah that $1000 was aside from the headphones.
   
  You mention how the dynaco amp would match well with the LCD-2 due to the power of each. How does one figure out compatibility (at least on paper and by specs) between headphones (or speakers) and amplifiers? I guess the watts produced by the amp need to be in the range required for the headphones to perform? (keep in mind one of my few bad/horrible grades in college was an electrical engineering course, in which i spent all my free time in the prof's office, I had to take while studying petroleum)
   
  And I love the look of the dynaco's and that may be the right ticket for me, although I am still itching to do something from the ground up (I will spend even more time in the DIY section then I already do!) Think I may make a starving student just to get all the kinks out and get my hands dirty.
   
   
*tunarat *and *log0*,
   
  Thanks for the advice and yes I realize how amazing they are. My father owns two (I assume for mono or something) of the 225s and he bought them probably 10 years ago or so (although I am almost 99% sure he did not pay ~2k for each of them, will prob ask him later out of curiosity). The problem is I do not want to save up and buy something so expensive for the purpose of driving speakers alone. Personally I would rather spend the 300-800 bucks and the time to DIY amp that can run some headphones (would be great if it could run klipsch or similar speakers) and if needed later get or make another amp for speakers.
   
  It is one of the least desires of mine to own 7 amps, 6 heaphones, a set of speakers, etc etc. I DO realize though that it is frowned upon to attempt to have 1 amp to do everything and be the end all. I realize this approach would instead make maybe only one of the 6 headphones shine 100% but have the rest of them at 80% and under. (does that make sense at all?) I just would prefer to end up with 2 amps (maybe 3 max) that are fairly versatile and are great at what they do (maybe not the best of the best)
   
*Others*,
   
  It is not about pleasing my dad or getting something similar, it is just a lot of influence from his end because it is my only personal contact with high-fi stuff. And of course he pushes it because it is what he owns and feels is 'best'. Although I DO NOT need best. I would love 'best' for my money and to buy something I will not have to replace. Hence spending extra to get something and be done with it that way next purchase is not an upgrade but a set of speakers, headphones, another amp, etc etc. A few pairs of headphones, an amp (or two if needed), set of speakers, and my tt and records would be ideal.
   
  And yes it seems like the EHHA, Bijou, Dynaco, or something similar may be a route I would have to take if I DIY and want tubes. If b22 is better all around (even though it is ss well may have to consider it, do not want to rule something out entirely)
   
  Everyone thanks for the great advice. I think the meet in Austin will be a great learning experience for me. My turntable is just sitting there with all my records on the shelf waiting to be used. So not in a rush (obviously, it took me two months to end up buying a cartridge) but want to make an economical, wise, and all around high end decision that will last a long time.
   
  Not sure why I am leaning towards owning the LCD-2s but they seem like a great choice if you are gonna own 2 or 3 headphones at the end of the day.
   
   
  Thanks again,
   
  Austin
   
  ps: feel free to pm me any responses as I feel I am taking away from the thread's purpose even though it is a community to help people I do not want others to get bogged down by off topic talk


----------



## DeadEars

Quote: 





eertelppa said:


> *Frank*,
> 
> Thanks for the wonderful advice. Yeah that $1000 was aside from the headphones.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Glad I could get you thinking about some alternatives!
   
  First, another plug for DIY.  The actual cost of building your own amp is actually pretty small in terms of parts costs (depending on the sources you use).  What gets expensive is commercializing an amp.  Then you have to be concerned with attractive design & paint, quality casework, layout for production efficiencies, labor costs to produce, availablitiy of parts, and the overhead for production/marketing/advertising and personnel.  All of these additional costs are "baked into" the price for a commercial amp and account for the majority of the costs.  DIY can give you the essence without all the fluff.  And if you get good at it, you can produce gear that rivals the best that commercial makers can produce, since you can do things like buy vintage vacuum tubes that are not available in commercial quantitites, or use customized building approaches that are hard to cost-justify in a commercial product.
   
  In other words, if you have a good DIY design, it is a heck of a bargain.  For a beginner, the kit-based approach is really fairly foolproof, especially if you are interested in learning and not just cranking out one piece of gear and then hanging up your soldering iron.
   
  On to your questions.  The Dynaco SCA-35 as a headphone amp makes sense for a few reasons:
  * power matching -- you're right, you don't want too much or too little power and the Dynaco is "just right"
  * impedence matching -- the LCD-2's are low impedence headphones.  Many traditional headphone amps struggle to deliver their rated power into low impedence headphones.  The Dynaco will not.
  * cost to acquire/improve -- the SCA-35's were made in very large numbers.  They are not very valuable, so therefore cheap to buy
  * opportunity to learn -- Most of these are half a century old.  they'll need to be rebuilt.  But there are lots of places that offer parts, circuit boards and tweaks specifically for these old amps
  * opportunity to improve sound quality with judicious DIY tinkering.  Because these were designed as kits, they are easy to work on, and there are a great many opportunities to improve the sound by upgrading parts quality, enhancing the power supply design, etc.
   
   
  I'm going to give you a more detailed answer about finding the best match between headphones and amps.  The short answer is "use your ears."  Things that might not work on paper may nonetheless sound pretty darn good.  But you ask about what makes a good match. 
   
  The answer is a bit complicated, but it comes down to running the amplifier within its optimum conditions.  It's kinda like having a Mustang Cobra 350 and driving it under different conditions.  If all you do is drive it in a city and never exceed 25mph, you will not get the most out of the car.  The same thing happens with an amp.  It is happiest (and produces its best-quality output) when it is operated within its power envelop, where it does the best job of passing a signal to the output device -- speakers or headphones.  If you are running a 350-watt amplifier into a headphone load, it can be done, but the results are not going to sound as good as if the load is well-matched to the power.  The nice thing about the Dynaco in this application is that it makes about 12-15 watts per channel.  Since the maximum power handling of the LCD-2 is about 15 watts, the power is not a problem. 
   
  Another part of the answer is impedence matching.  Power has to be delivered to a load in order to create work, which in our case means moving air to create sound.  Speakers and headphones are simply electically-driven air pumps.  But the characteristics of the load are affected by the components used to generate the power.  Between the amp and the sound are a bunch of connections, sometimes additional components like resistors, chokes or coils, or capacitors, and lots and lots of wire.  Each of these components offers different kinds of resistance to electricity.  The nature of the electrical resistance is different depending on the kind of components used and the frequency of the signal currents.  "Impedence" is a measurement value used to calculate the net amount of resistance to electricity created by all of these components used to pump the air and make sound.  When you add them all up, they act like a big resistor.  Unfortunately, it isn't a constant resistor.  Impedence can vary across the audio frequency spectrum, and mathematically weird things happen depending on the mechanical and electrical properties of the components used in the air pump.  This has audible consequences in the nature of the output signal (things like phase shift and group delay or intermodulation of signals).  Every audio load has a "nominal" impedence, which can be calculated in different ways.  But you can think of it as the average resistance across the frequency spectrum, usually weighted based on the frequencies that matter most in audio.
   
  In the case of the Dynaco SCA-35, the output transformer has several "taps" on it for matching the amplifier impedence to the load.  There are taps for 8 ohms and 16 ohms.  To hook up headphones, a stereo headphone jack is connected with the ground going to the speaker terminal ground, and the 16 ohm taps are used for the two stereo inputs. For each stereo channel, between the jack and the 16 ohm tap, the manual instructions suggest inserting a 100 ohm 1/2 watt resistor in each channel.  They suggest that this value might be reduced to 47 ohms for some headphones, depending on the music level (test), which is probably better for the LCD-2's although I haven't had a chance to test myself to find the best sounding resistor value.
   
  Of course, you can also hook up speakers.  Most of the speakers of the 1960's were fairly high efficiency.  They did not require a lot of power to drive them.  So something like the Klipsh speakers you mentioned would very likely work quite well with the Dynaco amp, although I personally haven't heard that combination.  And high-efficiency speakers are coming back in a big way, so there are a lot more modern brands available that could also be a good match.
   
  For my mouldy old Dynaco SCA-35, I'll probably replace almost everything by the time I'm done futzing with it.  Dynaco used really cheap parts for things like the circuit boards and the switches & connectors.  But it's a really sweet sounding amp, and really delivers music well.  Highly recommended!  Maybe you'll get lucky and find one that was lovingly cared for and has a pristine faceplate.  At least most of the parts are easily available and lots of online support from the Dynaco Doctor to the AA forums to DIY Audio.  I think you'd have fun with it & learn a lot.
   
  Frank


----------



## songforyou

For DeadEars:
   
  How is the MAD EAR+ with the LCD-2s?  I have a pair of HD600s with Stephan audioart cable and have had them for years.  I got the LCDs a week ago and have been doing a lot of back and forth using a DACport I received the same day.  Very different presentation between the two phones.
   
  I have a MAD line switcher and like dealing with Lloyd.  I'm also impressed with the CEntrance folks.  I like tubes generally, but have read that the DACmini is a very good match.  I find the LCDs pleasantly full and natural and don't think they need any added warmth.  My musical tastes run all over: baroque, opera, jazz, traditional and alt country, rock and so on. 
   
  Any suggestions would be appreciated!


----------



## MacedonianHero

songforyou said:


> For DeadEars:
> 
> How is the MAD EAR+ with the LCD-2s?  I have a pair of HD600s with Stephan audioart cable and have had them for years.  I got the LCDs a week ago and have been doing a lot of back and forth using a DACport I received the same day.  Very different presentation between the two phones.
> 
> ...




The max power output for the MAD Ear+HD is 100mW:

http://hollowstate.netfirms.com/HD.htm

I did have the MAD Ear+HD until very recently (owned it for about 2 years) and thought it was the best go to amp for any Grado can out there. It worked very well with my HD650s as well. But I would not recommend the pairing with the LCD-2s. YMMV.


----------



## songforyou

Thanks for the tip.  That's sort of what I thought.  I'm looking at the DACmini and also the Lyr.  The appeal of the mini is the added DAC obviously.  Most of my listening is vinyl.  I had a HRT Streamer+ but a power surge fried it.  I like simple computer solutions and that's why I sprung for a DACport while waiting for the DACmini to restock.  Quite pleased with the sound and it drives the LCDs quite well.  If I went with the Lyr, I'd need to do something for a DAC too.


----------



## USAudio

Has anyone tried the HeadRoom BUDA with the LCD-2's (or HE-6's for that matter) ?
  http://www.headphone.com/headphone-amps/headroom-balanced-ultra-desktop-amp-buda.php


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





songforyou said:


> Thanks for the tip.  That's sort of what I thought.  I'm looking at the DACmini and also the Lyr.  The appeal of the mini is the added DAC obviously.  Most of my listening is vinyl.  I had a HRT Streamer+ but a power surge fried it.  I like simple computer solutions and that's why I sprung for a DACport while waiting for the DACmini to restock.  Quite pleased with the sound and it drives the LCDs quite well.  If I went with the Lyr, I'd need to do something for a DAC too.


 
  You could use the DAC in the DACPort to drive the Lyr if you wanted to.  That's not a bad DAC you know.


----------



## WhiteCrow

schiit lyr.


----------



## eertelppa

Frank,
   
  I have printed our conversations and still need to do some reading up in my electrical engineering textbook to remind myself of some things (which i most likely did not understand in the first place; graduated college 2 years ago so it should still be somewhat fresh)
   
  I will look into a starving student and a dynaco. I think if those go well I will graduate to a b22 or bijou or something similar (still prefer those tubes though!). I have the patience and hardworking aspect that I know with time and effort I would produce a top notch product or at least do my best. Also can have my dad help with a case and stuff if needed (he has a lathe, milling machine, etc etc)
   
  Thanks again for the great advice. The only thing that was a little head scratching was the amps, resistance, impedance, etc, although I will do some researching of my own to make more light of your additional comments. 
   
  Take care and I have a lot of projects ahead of me. Best of luck to yourself and I am sure the upcoming meet will expose a lot of questions and more importantly answers to lead me a well rounded system. Would definitely love to be able to own a RS-1 (vintage), LCD-2, one or two other headphones, a pair of speakers, and only need one phono-preamp, and two or so amps [tube or hybrid or ss, in that order ]! Not sure if it is possible but will take it as it comes.
   
  Regards,
   
  Austin


----------



## GTL

How does the Lyr compare to the Concerto with the LCD2?



macedonianhero said:


> I can say that the Lyr + LCD-2 = great pairing.
> 
> While they can sound great from a good headphone amp, they are still orthos and benefit from the added power.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





gtl said:


> How does the Lyr compare to the Concerto with the LCD2?
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


 
  A few posts back someone commented that the Lyr seems to be considerably more dynamic and lends more substance to the bottom end than the Concerto.


----------



## DeadEars

Quote: 





songforyou said:


> For DeadEars:
> 
> How is the MAD EAR+ with the LCD-2s?  I have a pair of HD600s with Stephan audioart cable and have had them for years.  I got the LCDs a week ago and have been doing a lot of back and forth using a DACport I received the same day.  Very different presentation between the two phones.
> 
> ...


 

 As Macedonian Hero suggests, the Ear+ HD is not the best choice for the LCD-2.  However the Ear+ HD Super II (with solid-state rectification) is a lot more robust, and is actually a pretty good match. It will not plumb the deepest bass, since the output transformers start to roll off around 40Hz, and it is also somewhat rolled off at the high end.  But the midrange is pretty special and I enjoy it a lot with the LCD-2's.  Depends on what kind of music you like, I guess.  Would not be my first choice for death metal or hip-hop.  But damn fine for female vocalists, chamber music and acoustic music.  So I wouldn't rule out the higher-powered dual EL84 versions.  On mine, I've substituted oil caps for the nichicon electrolytics and that seems to make it even nicer, but the real limitation does seem to be the bandwidth of the output transformers.  Anyway, it might be just your cup of tea, and I wouldn't reject it on the grounds of power delivery.  Sound quality per dollar is good.
   
  I have several of Lloyd's preamps and amps, and agree strongly that he's great to deal with.


----------



## MacedonianHero

gtl said:


> How does the Lyr compare to the Concerto with the LCD2?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Let's just say that the Lyr is my ortho "go to" amp. 

As good as the Concerto and WA2 sound with my LCD-2s (with a slight preference for the WA2 between these two amps), the Lyr and it's 4 Watts into 50 ohms has shown me that orthos really need a lot of juice to reveal just what they can do.


----------



## MacedonianHero

kwkarth said:


> A few posts back someone commented that the Lyr seems to be considerably more dynamic and lends more substance to the bottom end than the Concerto.




I agree with this.


----------



## MacedonianHero

deadears said:


> As Macedonian Hero suggests, the Ear+ HD is not the best choice for the LCD-2.  However the Ear+ HD Super II (with solid-state rectification) is a lot more robust, and is actually a pretty good match. It will not plumb the deepest bass, since the output transformers start to roll off around 40Hz, and it is also somewhat rolled off at the high end.  But the midrange is pretty special and I enjoy it a lot with the LCD-2's.  Depends on what kind of music you like, I guess.  Would not be my first choice for death metal or hip-hop.  But damn fine for female vocalists, chamber music and acoustic music.  So I wouldn't rule out the higher-powered dual EL84 versions.  On mine, I've substituted oil caps for the nichicon electrolytics and that seems to make it even nicer, but the real limitation does seem to be the bandwidth of the output transformers.  Anyway, it might be just your cup of tea, and I wouldn't reject it on the grounds of power delivery.  Sound quality per dollar is good.
> 
> I have several of Lloyd's preamps and amps, and agree strongly that he's great to deal with.




But while not ideal, I still found that the MAD+HD / LCD-2 was a very good combination still. Especially when I popped in a 12AX7 Genalex Gold Lion power tube.


----------



## Wedge

I would really recommend the WA-22 with the right tube complement for the LCD-2.  I find it to be a fantastic combination.  I do think the tube choices might be a little different for each individuals preferences, but that the nice thing about these types of amps, you have a lot of different combinations you can try out.  I still haven't tried the WA-5 with my LCD-2s but I'll get around to it eventually.


----------



## songforyou

I am partial to tubes.  I've been logging some time with the LCD-2a and the DACport and I'm quite amazed by the combination.  I have a Glowamp1 and I'm going to try that with the DACport as a DAC only (the internal USB on the Glow stinks, but the amp itself is quite good and offers 5w SEP).  I love el84s.  My speaker amp is a Mapleshade Scott 222C (a poor man's Leben?).  It has a headphone out like the Leben, but while it's amazingly musical and transparent (much better than my only X-cans V2), it suffers from a rather pronounced hum that I can't seem to eliminate.
   
  I find the DACport excellent value and I wonder how much better the DACmini is.


----------



## DeadEars

Quote: 





songforyou said:


> I am partial to tubes.  I've been logging some time with the LCD-2a and the DACport and I'm quite amazed by the combination.  I have a Glowamp1 and I'm going to try that with the DACport as a DAC only (the internal USB on the Glow stinks, but the amp itself is quite good and offers 5w SEP).  I love el84s.  My speaker amp is a Mapleshade Scott 222C (a poor man's Leben?).  It has a headphone out like the Leben, but while it's amazingly musical and transparent (much better than my only X-cans V2), it suffers from a rather pronounced hum that I can't seem to eliminate.
> 
> I find the DACport excellent value and I wonder how much better the DACmini is.


 
   
  Yes, I'm a tube guy too, and I love playing around with vintage gear.  Does your Scott hum when all the inputs are disconnected?  Or does it only hum when they are connected?  If the former, then you probably have a weak cap in the power supply (common problem).  If the latter, you probably have a ground loop problem.  In that case, the first thing to try is plugging the AC cord in the other way around (assuming it still has the original plug and has not had a modern 3-wire plug & grounding system put in).  Actually there's a checklist I could give you to troubleshoot.  PM me if interested.
   
  Frank


----------



## DeadEars

Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Yes, I think it was on your recommendation that I moved away from the 5751 and rolled a bunch of 12AX7 tubes through.  I finally settled on some 1960's Amperex Holland bugle boys that sound really, really good and provide the higher gain that makes the LCD-2's sing with the MAD amp.
   
  Tx!
   
  Frank


----------



## Skylab

I've always wanted to try one of those Mapleshade modded Scott amps.  I'm sure Mapleshade would help you solve the hum issue.


----------



## MacedonianHero

deadears said:


> Yes, I think it was on your recommendation that I moved away from the 5751 and rolled a bunch of 12AX7 tubes through.  I finally settled on some 1960's Amperex Holland bugle boys that sound really, really good and provide the higher gain that makes the LCD-2's sing with the MAD amp.
> 
> Tx!
> 
> Frank




Glad you're enjoying the 12AX7 Bugle Boys...great tubes!


----------



## songforyou

The Mapleshade Scotts sound great.  They are expensive for Scotts and folks who know how to work on these things might find the prices outlandish, but for those of us who just listen to music and know nothing about fixing gear, they are a godsend.  I replaced a $3000 integrated with the Scott and just love the sound every time I turn it on.  I'm very curious to see how it would stack up against the Leben (which appears to be a modern day premium Scott).
   
  Mapleshade bypass the original tone controls for starters.  I've had some subsequent changes to the amp (addition of proper speaker terminals instead of the cheesy screws and some caps replaced), but everyone says the same thing: it ain't pretty, but it sounds great. 
   
  The headphone has great potential; I just have to figure out the hum.


----------



## bcg27

Hello everyone, I want to start off by saying that I am really enjoying my lcd2s out of my current setup - PC --> amb gamma2 --> amb beta22. It sounds fantastic and I am not looking to change my home setup at this time. However, I would like to be able to take my lcd2s with me when I travel. Not for use on a plane/bus or anything like that, but for use when I get to my destination, so a battery powered amp is not a requirement. Basically I am looking for something that isn't massive like my two box beta22 - it doesn't have to fit in my pocket, but it should easily fit in a backpack. Probably SS, since I it seems to me that travelling with tubes would be a pain and probably wouldn't work out so well for the tubes. Source would be either a laptop hooked up to my gamma2 or LOD from an ipod.
   
  Thanks for any suggestions, and if this is a fools quest and I should just get a nice pair of iems for travel feel free to tell me that too


----------



## elnero

Quote: 





bcg27 said:


> Hello everyone, I want to start off by saying that I am really enjoying my lcd2s out of my current setup - PC --> amb gamma2 --> amb beta22. It sounds fantastic and I am not looking to change my home setup at this time. However, I would like to be able to take my lcd2s with me when I travel. Not for use on a plane/bus or anything like that, but for use when I get to my destination, so a battery powered amp is not a requirement. Basically I am looking for something that isn't massive like my two box beta22 - it doesn't have to fit in my pocket, but it should easily fit in a backpack. Probably SS, since I it seems to me that travelling with tubes would be a pain and probably wouldn't work out so well for the tubes. Source would be either a laptop hooked up to my gamma2 or LOD from an ipod.
> 
> Thanks for any suggestions, and if this is a fools quest and I should just get a nice pair of iems for travel feel free to tell me that too


 
  Maybe a CEntrance DACmini? I was surprised when I read the dimensions on their website that the size is pretty close to that of a Headroom Desktop Portable which I have on loan from a friend, it will easily fit in my back pack and isn't too heavy. The DACmini would also negate the need for a separate DAC.


----------



## bcg27

Thanks for the suggestion. That is definitely the form factor that I am looking for, but it is a bit pricey. I also don't like that they won't tell you what chips they are using. I really like to know what is going into my equipment, hence all the DIY stuff I have. I have no problem bringing my gamma2 with me as it is pretty compact - about 4 inches x 3 inches - so I would rather avoid paying extra for a combo DAC/amp unit.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





bcg27 said:


> Thanks for the suggestion. That is definitely the form factor that I am looking for, but it is a bit pricey. I also don't like that they won't tell you what chips they are using. I really like to know what is going into my equipment, hence all the DIY stuff I have. I have no problem bringing my gamma2 with me as it is pretty compact - about 4 inches x 3 inches - so I would rather avoid paying extra for a combo DAC/amp unit.


 
  It's not about the chips, it's about the whole enchilada.  Did you get a chance to read their response in the DACMini thread?
   


> Originally Posted by *Jay Listens*


 


> When asked about the chips we use in our products, our answer is simple: CEntrance only uses the finest components in its products, to guarantee highest audio quality, professional reliability and longevity of your investment. CEntrance is the official design firm for many IC vendors, so naturally we have early access to the best chips.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## bcg27

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> It's not about the chips, it's about the whole enchilada.  Did you get a chance to read their response in the DACMini thread?


 

 I did, and it's basically the same statement that they have on their website. I completely agree with them that the whole package matters, however the DAC or opamp is still a very important part of the design, and sets certain limitations on a product regardless of what you put around it. I will trust that they know what they are doing and can make a good design around a certain chip, but I would like to know what that design revolves around.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





bcg27 said:


> I did, and it's basically the same statement that they have on their website. I completely agree with them that the whole package matters, however the DAC or opamp is still a very important part of the design, and sets certain limitations on a product regardless of what you put around it. I will trust that they know what they are doing and can make a good design around a certain chip, but I would like to know what that design revolves around.


 
  I thought they did mention specifically what chip they were using, in that thread just a couple posts before the one I quoted, but I don't remember what it was, and now I can't find the post.


----------



## bcg27

I saw a post somewhere that said it used AKM 4396 for the DAC,and OPA1612 for the opamp but I couldn't find confirmation anywhere.
   
  Edit: It was in HeadphoneAddicts review http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/473473/review-more-to-come-centrance-dacport-24-96-usb-dac-amp


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote: 





bcg27 said:


> I saw a post somewhere that said it used AKM 4396 for the DAC,and OPA1612 for the opamp but I couldn't find confirmation anywhere.
> 
> Edit: It was in HeadphoneAddicts review http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/473473/review-more-to-come-centrance-dacport-24-96-usb-dac-amp


 

 Well, what I said was, "OPA1612 sounds right, I believe I heard that somewhere. Don't know about the DAC it uses, but the AKM4396 mentioned is used in the Slim Devices Transporter, right?"
   
  It might have been a pair of OPA1611 and not OPA1612, but I just don't remember the conversation.  
   
  And I said I DON'T know what DAC it uses - I posted the above in my response to a post by bcwang saying that he read that leeperry said it used an AK4396.  It's all hearsay.


----------



## bcg27

Yes, I didn't mean to imply that you had stated anything definitively. That's why I said I couldn't find any confirmation, sorry if you thought I was putting words in your mouth.


----------



## Duckman

The Meier Stepdance is a good portable solution IMO. Battery life is short, but it can be run from the mains.


----------



## veracocha

How is lcd-2 with Nuforce hdp ?


----------



## WarriorAnt

[size=medium]I thought I was posting this reply in this thread but instead I accidentally started another thread so I'm posting it here where I originally wanted to post it.  Sorry my eyes are weary.
   
  I ordered my LCD-2's this week.  I tried reading this thread but after many days I got up to page 75 and my eyes burst and exploded from my head.
   
  I have an average of $1K to spend on an amp and $1K for a DAC.     I've had many tube amps for my speaker rigs in my life and I love the sound of tubes but I cannot deal with the changing, rolling, and different sound of various tube thing (doesn't mean I can't be tempted though). So solid state it is.   1K is not a hard ceiling on the amp or DAC.  I'm looking to buy something thats going to be in my system pretty much for good, I'm not so much interested in gear anymore or exploring different pieces of gear,  I just want something that delivers the goods to the LCD's.    I don't even like headphones all that much preferring my music to float thru the air to my ears but I need a pair for late night listening and thought I'd go pretty much to the top by getting the LCD's and bypassing the climb upwards through various different headphone upgrades.
   
  So please guys give me some recommendations if you can spare the time my eyes would really appreciate them.
   ​[/size]


----------



## pachku

Save 1k and go for the Burson 160D.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





pachku said:


> Save 1k and go for the Burson 160D.


 


  Burson looks good, I'll put it on my list, but I'm interested in separate components.


----------



## Loevhagen

I´ve so far listened to my LCD-2s from the Violectric V200 and the Lehmann Audio BCL using a Hegel HD10 DAC. The DAC is regarded relatively neutral. The sound from the V200 is colored warm and give a lot of bass impact. The BCL is quite the opposite. It has nuanced bass, but less than V200. I think the BCL is the better choice for the LCD-2 if you do appreciate to hear every "ping - plong" crystal clear on the source material / recordings. The V200 portrays the same level of details, but in a "warm tube sound" of way.


----------



## daveDerek

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> I thought I was posting this reply in this thread but instead I accidentally started another thread so I'm posting it here where I originally wanted to post it.  Sorry my eyes are weary.
> 
> I ordered my LCD-2's this week.  I tried reading this thread but after many days I got up to page 75 and my eyes burst and exploded from my head.
> 
> ...


 

based on HPA's, and some others, experiences & impressions you well might want to look into the CEntrance DACmini amp & dac combo, which easily fits your budget. there's a whole thread on the unit and Larry has posted some thoughts in that thread (http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/523850/centrance-dacmini-dac-amplifier-official-thread/75#post_7325679 & http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/523850/centrance-dacmini-dac-amplifier-official-thread/75#post_7330118) as well as in this thread.
another (rather more expensive) dac/amp combo that has gotten some listeners gaga with the lcd2 is the Red Wine Audio Isabellina reviewed here:
  http://news.cnet.com/8301-13645_3-20033341-47.html


----------



## wakeride74

I came very close to giving the DACmini a try and usually agree with HPA but I opted for the Burson HA-160D mostly because I'm curious how much I agree or disagree with the 6moons review and comparison of the two.
   
  I miss my LCD-2 and will probably get another pair. I'm not sure how or where I could set up a listening area at home safe from the kids but I'm already mentally putting it together - RWA Isabellina & Decware Tabooo seem like they could be a pretty nice combo for the LCD-2 from what I've been reading... drool.
  
  Quote: 





davederek said:


> based on HPA's, and some others, experiences & impressions you well might want to look into the CEntrance DACmini amp & dac combo, which easily fits your budget. there's a whole thread on the unit and Larry has posted some thoughts in that thread (http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/523850/centrance-dacmini-dac-amplifier-official-thread/75#post_7325679 & http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/523850/centrance-dacmini-dac-amplifier-official-thread/75#post_7330118) as well as in this thread.
> another (rather more expensive) dac/amp combo that has gotten some listeners gaga with the lcd2 is the Red Wine Audio Isabellina reviewed here:
> http://news.cnet.com/8301-13645_3-20033341-47.html


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





loevhagen said:


> I´ve so far listened to my LCD-2s from the Violectric V200 and the Lehmann Audio BCL using a Hegel HD10 DAC. The DAC is regarded relatively neutral. The sound from the V200 is colored warm and give a lot of bass impact. The BCL is quite the opposite. It has nuanced bass, but less than V200. I think the BCL is the better choice for the LCD-2 if you do appreciate to hear every "ping - plong" crystal clear on the source material / recordings. The V200 portrays the same level of details, but in a "warm tube sound" of way.


 


  In your opinion which of the two, the Violectric V200 and the Lehmann Audio BCL pairs best with the Hegel HD10 DAC?      Also how are you liking the Hegel?


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





davederek said:


> based on HPA's, and some others, experiences & impressions you well might want to look into the CEntrance DACmini amp & dac combo, which easily fits your budget. there's a whole thread on the unit and Larry has posted some thoughts in that thread (http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/523850/centrance-dacmini-dac-amplifier-official-thread/75#post_7325679 & http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/523850/centrance-dacmini-dac-amplifier-official-thread/75#post_7330118) as well as in this thread.
> another (rather more expensive) dac/amp combo that has gotten some listeners gaga with the lcd2 is the Red Wine Audio Isabellina reviewed here:
> http://news.cnet.com/8301-13645_3-20033341-47.html


 

 Does  Red Wine Audio also make a separate amp and DAC? I went to their site but it was unclear at least for me.     I'm leery of combos only because I want to leave the DAC option open as new technology increases ones access to higher resolutions.  Most likely it is the DAC section of the rig which will be updated as time moves onward but the cans and the amp won't be ( famous last words).


----------



## pekingduck

^^ I think Isabellina HPA = Isabellina + Amphora (sold by ALO)


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote: 





pekingduck said:


> ^^ I think Isabellina HPA = Isabellina + Amphora (sold by ALO)


 

 Isabellina HPA has a stronger PSU than the Amphora, and drives the LCD-2 with more authority.  Amphora is still pretty nice, but it's about as powerful as a Woo WA6.


----------



## WarriorAnt

PSU? What is that?
   
  Audeze is stating on their Facebook page that the waiting time is now down to a week!  I thought it would be a lot longer. So now I'm insane with reading all the threads on amps and DAC's for them.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





skylab said:


> For me, the ideal amp for the LCD-2 is the Decware Mini-Torii.  Lots of power, sounds great, not horribly expensive.  The downsides are that it really isn't good for using with other types of headphones, just other planars like the HE-6, and that while it's worth the money IMO, it's still $1,500.


 

 Skylab if you're out there I have a few Decaware Mini-Torii question for you.  How much tube tweaking will I have to do you get it optimized for my LCD's?  In other words will the tubes supplied with the amp be fine for the LCD's or will I have to change them out to get the best sound?  I love the sound of tubes BUT I'm really no connoisseur and my tube knowledge is limited.   I am afraid I will not have the expertise to run the amp if I have to change out tubes the way you know how.  Also how long can I expect the tubes on the Mini to last before I need to change them out.  
   
  Thanks.


----------



## pekingduck

PSU = Power Supply Unit
  
  Quote: 





warriorant said:


> PSU? What is that?
> 
> Audeze is stating on their Facebook page that the waiting time is now down to a week!  I thought it would be a lot longer. So now I'm insane with reading all the threads on amps and DAC's for them.


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> Skylab if you're out there I have a few Decaware Mini-Torii question for you.  How much tube tweaking will I have to do you get it optimized for my LCD's?  In other words will the tubes supplied with the amp be fine for the LCD's or will I have to change them out to get the best sound?  I love the sound of tubes BUT I'm really no connoisseur and my tube knowledge is limited.   I am afraid I will not have the expertise to run the amp if I have to change out tubes the way you know how.  Also how long can I expect the tubes on the Mini to last before I need to change them out.
> 
> Thanks.


 


  So first of all, there are very few amps where the tubes are as easy to change as the Mini-Torii, since the tube sockets are flush-mounted.  That said, I did not try the stock power or driver tubes.  The driver tubes were vintage US tubes, and so the could have been left alone, I just didn't (note that the amp does not arrive with the tubes installed, so it was just as easy for me to put other tubes in versus the supplied ones before I fired it up).  The power tubes were Russian, and so I put in US Sylvania 6V6G's in instead.  The rest of the tubes were all nice NOS US tubes, and they are all tube rectification or regulation for the PS.
   
  Botom line - it will work well and fine with the supplied tubes, for sure.  I would use different Power tubes, but it's not mandatory.  Decware provides the tubes the do with the expectation that people will use them!  And you should get many thousands of hours of use from them.


----------



## wakeride74

Quote: 





skylab said:


> So first of all, there are very few amps where the tubes are as easy to change as the Mini-Torii, since the tube sockets are flush-mounted.  That said, I did not try the stock power or driver tubes.  The driver tubes were vintage US tubes, and so the could have been left alone, I just didn't (note that the amp does not arrive with the tubes installed, so it was just as easy for me to put other tubes in versus the supplied ones before I fired it up).  The power tubes were Russian, and so I put in US Sylvania 6V6G's in instead.  The rest of the tubes were all nice NOS US tubes, and they are all tube rectification or regulation for the PS.
> 
> Botom line - it will work well and fine with the supplied tubes, for sure.  I would use different Power tubes, but it's not mandatory.  Decware provides the tubes the do with the expectation that people will use them!  And you should get many thousands of hours of use from them.


 

 Rob, What advantages does the Mini-Torii offer over the Taboo for the LCD-2?


----------



## Tigers Go GRRR

My computer is soooo slow. Takes like 2 minutes to load a single thread page on this site.

 Who wants to make $5?
  Can someone who has read this whole thread, type up a list of the most recommended amps?
  FIVE BUCKS! Just the names of the amps would be fine. I can research the prices, pros and cons of the amps on my own. Surely this thread can be boiled down to 7 or 8 amps, right? 5 crisp American dollars! Crisp!


----------



## Permagrin

Quote: 





tigers go grrr said:


> My computer is soooo slow. Takes like 2 minutes to load a single thread page on this site.
> 
> Who wants to make $5?
> Can someone who has read this whole thread, type up a list of the most recommended amps?
> FIVE BUCKS! Just the names of the amps would be fine. I can research the prices, pros and cons of the amps on my own. Surely this thread can be boiled down to 7 or 8 amps, right? 5 crisp American dollars! Crisp!


 
  What web browser do you use? If it's IE that makes sense. Firefox is a LOT faster for these forums.
   
  If I was going to upgrade to end it all it would probably be to TigzStudio's setup. Antelope Zodiac(+)($2500, base model will probably be $1500 but less options and only 96khz vs 192khz -> Violectric (HPA v181) (714.29 euro = $1,020 USD), balanced of course. All in all though over $3k with the upgraded PSU iirc.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





skylab said:


> So first of all, there are very few amps where the tubes are as easy to change as the Mini-Torii, since the tube sockets are flush-mounted.  That said, I did not try the stock power or driver tubes.  The driver tubes were vintage US tubes, and so the could have been left alone, I just didn't (note that the amp does not arrive with the tubes installed, so it was just as easy for me to put other tubes in versus the supplied ones before I fired it up).  The power tubes were Russian, and so I put in US Sylvania 6V6G's in instead.  The rest of the tubes were all nice NOS US tubes, and they are all tube rectification or regulation for the PS.
> 
> Botom line - it will work well and fine with the supplied tubes, for sure.  I would use different Power tubes, but it's not mandatory.  Decware provides the tubes the do with the expectation that people will use them!  And you should get many thousands of hours of use from them.


 

 Skylab,  Thanks for taking the time to answer my pedestrian questions it is much appreciated!    I haven't had tube amps since the late 80's, Nestorovic Mono Blocs,  Conrad Johnson mono blocks NYAL Moscode 600 monoblocks, and Audio Research Monoblocks.  I used them with Martin Logan CLS II's and 2 Janis subwoofers and Large Maggies. But I was a bit isolated and didn't know about tube rolling or different tube characteristics and sold them all before any tube changes were needed.  I simply had the amps and ignored whatever tube knowledge I should have gained.   I later moved on to Krell electronics and sold off my tube gear.  As much as I love the precision of the different Krells I always felt the tube amps prior seemed more musical, more alive and more engaging and more inviting.  Perhaps it was simply nostalgic romanticism for gear I gave up.   But from the hundreds of pages I've read here on Head Fi the folks with tubes speak of their rigs in those terms I used above. Musical, alive, engaging, inviting, and a new term "organic".    Not that I don't enjoy the precision of solid state. I enjoyed the Krells immensely. 
   
  With all those tubes the Mini-Torii sports I imagine it puts out a good bit of heat?   That's my last concern I live in the Sonoran desert and I can deal with some amount of heat but I couldn't deal with the amount of heat my Class A Krell amp put out.


----------



## Skylab

@wake rider - I've not heard the Taboo. But as far as advantages, it does have a preamp stage, which could be an advantage with some lower voltage sources. I also like the look better, but only by a little.

@warrior ant - the Mini Torii does produce some heat, yes, but less than some tube amps I know. The regulator tubes produce very little heat, as with the rectifier and driver tubes. Only the 6V6 really produces much heat.


----------



## WarriorAnt

while waiting on my LCD-2 to be ready I've made a list of possible AMPS and DACs I'm considering.   Please chime in with your thoughts positive or negative about the various units and if you have experience with them alone or together.  Advice any of them paired together would really be helpful.   I'll be running my new rig off a 2009 iMac
   
  AMPS
   
  Violectric HPA V200.  
   
  Burson HA 160
   
  Rudistor RPX-35
   
  Audio GD Phoenix
   
  Decware Mini-torii
   
  Decware Taboo
   
  Trafomatic Audio Experience Head One
   
  Shiit Lyr
   
  Woo 6 SE
   
   
   
  DACS
   
  WYRED 4 Sound DAC-2
   
  Lavry DA II
   
  AVA Vision EC DAC
   
  EE MiniMax DAC
   
   
  Comments on pairing of these would be much appreciated.   Also if you could please include what Interconnects you are using with them that would be very helpful.  Any tidbits about power cords with these units are also welcome.   I'm planning to run a dedicated 20 amp line for the rig also.


----------



## grokit

The Woo WA22 and Cavelli Liquid Fire should be on the list of amps for the LCD-2.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





grokit said:


> The Woo WA22 and Cavelli Liquid Fire should be on the list of amps for the LCD-2.


 

 Not sure if this is in response to my question and list.  Both are outside my budget.


----------



## Loevhagen

I´ve had stereo components from Hegel before. In the early days it was P2/H2 (pre / amplifier) and some years thereafter it was the H200 (integrated). The later Hegel components is perceived less "bright" than the previous models from same company: www.hegel.com
   
  I would say the HD10 is within their new sound; neutral but not harsh. 
   
  I´m honestly a bit baffled how the HD10 and V200 performs on the LCD-2. It sounds quite different than the "normal headphone sound". It´s more natural. It got texture, not just nuances. 
   
  I would anticipate there are many capable amps to fit LCD-2. It´s just a matter of personal taste, and the V200 fits my preferences. It´s a keeper. 
   
   
  Quote: 





warriorant said:


> In your opinion which of the two, the Violectric V200 and the Lehmann Audio BCL pairs best with the Hegel HD10 DAC?      Also how are you liking the Hegel?


----------



## hardtarget666

What about the NFB-10ES? Its an all in one budget solution that some might not prefer (Amp+DAC) but in IMHO it does justice to LCD-2's. I'm currently using it single ended but it still has lot of power on tap and drives the LCD-2's with auhority. I don't have balanced cable for it yet but in balanced mode the NFB-10ES will provide the LCD-2's with even more power (somewhere in the region of 4+ Watts@50 ohms). As far as the DAC sections is concerned, the ES9018 Sabre dac is extremely revealing which complements the LCD-2's character.


----------



## WarriorAnt

I can't go for a combo Amp/DAC because I want to be able to change out the DAC in the future.


----------



## g5tar

having good luck w/ the audio gd C2-SA (6000mW@50ohms)- haven't heard much feedback on this amp- but it drives the the LCD-2 with authority- i'd like to compare some other amps, but this thing sounds great...hard to justify an upgrade of something that works.
   
  C2-SA 300$ + shipping
http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/Headphoneamp/C-2SA/C2SAEN.htm


----------



## Solude

I think in your other thread you said you wanted to keep things separate but... Burson HA-160D.  Worse case scenario, you upgrade to another DAC down the line and still have a great pre/hp amp.  I actually think the dac/hp thing is just going to get more and more 'normal'.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





solude said:


> I think in your other thread you said you wanted to keep things separate but... Burson HA-160D.  Worse case scenario, you upgrade to another DAC down the line and still have a great pre/hp amp.  I actually think the dac/hp thing is just going to get more and more 'normal'.


 

  
  I have not ruled out a combo completely and this is because of the Burson HA-160D which so many LCD owners seem to love.   The Centrance DACmini is another combo that seems interesting also.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Has anyone received a pair of LCD's recently?  I hear rumor that the metal height adjusters have been replaced with plastic height adjusters.


----------



## ETAHL

You guys with LCD-2 should check out the use of T-amps, a TA2024 in my case. Fantastic performance for cheap, but you need a new cable, or an adapter, if you already have a balanced cable. With the mini XLR equipped LCD-2, the task is very easy and no modification to the headphones.
   
  Please check out my post: http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/548694/t-amp-audeze-lcd-2-surprise


----------



## Solude

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> Has anyone received a pair of LCD's recently?  I hear rumor that the metal height adjusters have been replaced with plastic height adjusters.


 


  No way the posts went plastic.  The square blocks were plastic once upon a time though.  They went metal as part of a recall.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





solude said:


> No way the posts went plastic.  The square blocks were plastic once upon a time though.  They went metal as part of a recall.


 
  The one I just received seems to be some sort of molded material for the block...  Some polymer of some kind with a simplified design.  Only one set screw instead of two.  Looks good so far.  Either way, not to worry, you know Audeze will stand behind them, and it's a simple matter to swap the blocks out if it has to be done.


----------



## USAudio

Quote:


kwkarth said:


> The one I just received seems to be some sort of molded material for the block...  Some polymer of some kind with a simplified design.  Only one set screw instead of two.  Looks good so far.  Either way, not to worry, you know Audeze will stand behind them, and it's a simple matter to swap the blocks out if it has to be done.


 
  Interesting.  I've had my LCD-2's for a couple months now and my blocks appear to be machined then brushed and anodized metal ... perhaps aluminum?  The posts are definitely still metal.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





usaudio said:


> Quote:
> Interesting.  I've had my LCD-2's for a couple months now and my blocks appear to be machined then brushed and anodized metal ... perhaps aluminum?  The posts are definitely still metal.


 
  Yes, the posts are still metal.


----------



## WarriorAnt

I wasn't considering an amp/DAC combo for my LCD-2's  but the passion that the Burson HA-160D owners have for it is really giving me pause to consider it.    My front runner DAC is the Wyred 4 Sound DAC-2.    Also I know this sounds off in terms of picking an Amp for the LCD-2's but Decware's Lifetime Warranty on its products keeps diverting my thoughts towards it's products.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> I wasn't considering an amp/DAC combo for my LCD-2's  but the passion that the Burson HA-160D owners have for it is really giving me pause to consider it.    My front runner DAC is the Wyred 4 Sound DAC-2.    Also I know this sounds off in terms of picking an Amp for the LCD-2's but Decware's Lifetime Warranty on its products keeps diverting my thoughts towards it's products.


 

 I can tell you that the amp in the 160D is not in the same league as the Lyr, but then you still have to get a DAC.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> I can tell you that the amp in the 160D is not in the same league as the Lyr, but then you still have to get a DAC.


 

 How well does the Lyr perform with the tubes supplied with the unit?  Will I have to exchange them out for a more optimal sound performance ( I know that's kind of a dumb question to ask about tubes) and if so what tubes are making the rounds with the Lyr.  I don't mind getting a separate Amp and DAC in fact I think I prefer it in order to give me flexibility for new DAC tech in the future but I don't want to be blind to a combo that really is doing high end justice to the LCD's.   While my budget isn't limitless saving money on a combo isn't a priority over sound.  This might be the perfect chance to ask Lyr/LCD owners what DAC they are using?  What are the Lyr owners using as a DAC?


----------



## USAudio

Quote:


warriorant said:


> How well does the Lyr perform with the tubes supplied with the unit?  Will I have to exchange them out for a more optimal sound performance ( I know that's kind of a dumb question to ask about tubes) and if so what tubes are making the rounds with the Lyr.  I don't mind getting a separate Amp and DAC in fact I think I prefer it in order to give me flexibility for new DAC tech in the future but I don't want to be blind to a combo that really is doing high end justice to the LCD's.   While my budget isn't limitless saving money on a combo isn't a priority over sound.  This might be the perfect chance to ask Lyr/LCD owners what DAC they are using?  What are the Lyr owners using as a DAC?


 Personally I have zero desire to swap out the standard tubes in my Lyr.  In fact, I've matched levels between the headphone amp in my Lavry DA11 DAC and the Lyr and it's usually hard to tell the difference between the two, the Lyr is neutral and transparent as delivered.  Others may prefer a more tubey sound.  However, if I really start cranking it up the Lyr *may* have some more perceived authority when listening to more dynamic material.  Besides, the tubes just look cool ... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  IMHO, the recording quality, source and headphones have the most impact on SQ.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> How well does the Lyr perform with the tubes supplied with the unit?  Will I have to exchange them out for a more optimal sound performance ( I know that's kind of a dumb question to ask about tubes) and if so what tubes are making the rounds with the Lyr.  I don't mind getting a separate Amp and DAC in fact I think I prefer it in order to give me flexibility for new DAC tech in the future but I don't want to be blind to a combo that really is doing high end justice to the LCD's.   While my budget isn't limitless saving money on a combo isn't a priority over sound.  This might be the perfect chance to ask Lyr/LCD owners what DAC they are using?  What are the Lyr owners using as a DAC?


 
  So far, in my opinion, it performs very well.  Will it perform better with different tubes?  Well, it will perform differently with different tubes, but "better" is a subjective call.  I am very happy with the stock tubes.  Will I roll tubes, yeah, probably curiosity will eventually cause me to do this.  For a DAC, I'm using the Music Hall 25.2, tube rolled and tweaked and I love it.


----------



## WarriorAnt

What interconnects are you guys using?


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> What interconnects are you guys using?


 

 I'm using Outlaw Audio PCA.


----------



## g5tar

there still metal. received mine thursday.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





g5tar said:


> there still metal. received mine thursday.


 
  One or two setscrews in each block?


----------



## Ynoskire

I've got a simple question, and I'm sorry if it has been asked before, but i've noticed some people have a wooden case, and some have a plastic "travel case". I'm guessing that the wooden cases comes standard with the LCD 2 because of the unboxing shots a couple of pages back. Is the hard case an optional extra or is it free of charge? The Audeze site doesn't seem to mention it, yet it has an audeze logo printed on it (makes it easier to find for audiophile thieves). I do need some sort of travel case because i'm propably going to, well, travel with it back and forth between my parents' house and my yet to rent appartement near the university.


----------



## ptrok

ynoskire said:


> I've got a simple question, and I'm sorry if it has been asked before, but i've noticed some people have a wooden case, and some have a plastic "travel case". I'm guessing that the wooden cases comes standard with the LCD 2 because of the unboxing shots a couple of pages back. Is the hard case an optional extra or is it free of charge? The Audeze site doesn't seem to mention it, yet it has an audeze logo printed on it (makes it easier to find for audiophile thieves). I do need some sort of travel case because i'm propably going to, well, travel with it back and forth between my parents' house and my yet to rent appartement near the university.




I just ordered a pair and it gives you a choice between the two at checkout and there is no additional fee for the choice.


----------



## Ynoskire

Ok, thanks a lot!


----------



## Loevhagen

Hege HD10 (DAC) -> XLR (Kimber Timbre) -> Violectric HPA V200 -> unbalanced to LCD-2. Upon the need for unbalanced between DAC and amp (e.g. Schiit Lyr) I´ll use Kimber Hero RCA WBT.
  Quote: 





warriorant said:


> What interconnects are you guys using?


----------



## WarriorAnt

I'm going insane but I'm making some headway for my headphone rig.   I'm only going to buy one headphone so I ordered a pair of LCD-2's last sunday night.  I didn't want to do the trek thru the cans by getting different cans thru time so I decided to just go ahead and get the LCD-2's.  I don't really have any experience with cans other than my daughters Grado 80's and her Audio-Technica ATH AD700's.   They're not very inspiring.  Last week I sold off all my high end speaker gear which has been absconding my living room forever and decided since I spend more time listening to music now in my computer/office/reading room it's time to try headphones.
   
  For years I had a Theta DAC and realize how very important a good DAC is so I've settled on a Wyred 4 Sound DAC-2 to go with the LCD-2's.  That's 2 out of 3.   But now I'm completely torn between some of the amps I've posted earlier.  I'm not set in concrete when it comes to buying something made here in the U.S. but I feel more comfortable about the manufacturers being nearby even in today's world of next day shipping.
   
  Here are the choices still splitting my head open and my thoughts about them.
   
  TUBES
   
  Decware Mini-Torrii.  
   
    Pros for me:  Folks with LCD-2's love it and apparently it drives them perhaps better than any amp except the Leben.   It can also drive a pair of Mirage M-190's that I currently use at my iMac when I'm composing my own music and listening to tunes in general.  So it can drive the LCD's and a pair of speakers.This is a big plus.  Apparently it doesn't get extremely hot, a good thing since I live in the Sonoran desert.  Even with air conditioning extra heat is extra heat.  Lifetime warranty, got to dig that. Plus Skylab digs it and I don't really know if Skylab has 2 tin ears or not but his passion for "all things tubed" is contagious and compelling. 
                                  
   Cons for me: Headphone jack and speaker mod option to have speakers turn off when using headphones is $200 more as combined options.  Not really a big expense in the long run but I wanted to bitch about it because I just realized that.  There are a lot of tubes and I don't know if I've mellowed enough from my tube amp days in the late 80' and early 90's not to worry if the tubes are "OK" every time I hear one of them burp. But maybe I have overcome my audiophile neurosis since I was able to hold off buying new gear for almost 16 years after having spent a King's fortune on it every other month for an entire decade before the final system came into place.
   
   
   
  Woo Audio 6SE or the Woo Audio WA-2.   
   
  Pros for me.  2 well respected amps that folks have paired with the LCD-2's and enjoyed.    I suspect the Woo Audio WA-2 with the power tube upgrade might edge out the Woo Audio 6 SE but I do not know and I really need you guys to help me on that.  The Woo amps have a good build reputation.  That means a lot.  In my travels I've had quite a few great sounding pieces of gear that just weren't made well and that never ended well.   
   
  Cons for me.  Neither come with a power cord?  What the hell is that about?  Is that a standard with todays manufacturers? Damn dude at least toss in something to plug it in with.  Not a deal breaker of course but I wanted to bitch about it.  Neither can drive speakers.  
   
   
   
  Shiit Lyr.
   
  Pros for me.  I'd be lying if I didn't say the price was compelling but although price isn't completely a deciding factor it is incredibly affordable.  I don't mind paying the price of the other amps if they are going to give me that extra bit more because I'm only going to be getting one amp and I want to try to get the best sound and if they do give that extra bit more I want it and will pay for it.  However I cannot afford the Leben.  One of the designers Mike Moffet gives this amp some real credibility for me. I casually knew Mike from his Theta Ds Pre Gen I-III days and he personally modded my Gen I to a Gen III and that DAC really did it for me for 2 decades. Not too many tubes to worry about.
   
  Cons for me.  I'm not sure if it delivers what the other amps can in terms of that little bit extra.  It's relatively new on the scene and I'm afraid the perspective of the personal reviews may still be the glow of infatuation.   Doesn't drive speakers.
   
  Solid State.   I'm clueless at the moment.  I need suggestions for a solid state amp without a built in DAC since I'm going for the Wyred 4 Sound DAC-2.   The Audio GD Phoenix looks good but I am very fearful of the heat it puts out and I'm not sure about using it single ended.  The Violectric HPA V200 also looks good but I am confused as to whether or not it has a built in DAC or if the DAC is just an option you can add to it.  The Burson HA 160 is also interesting but I'm not sure if it's up to the task when compared to the Woo, Lyr, or Decware.
   
  The Meier Concerto was a real front runner for me but it seems as soon as I ordered my LCD-2's he decided t stop making it.  Now my comments may seem controversial for some about this topic but here they are.  The guy was making an amp that many have declared works really well with the LCD and then he decided to dimply stop making it. Come on man! I don't know why he made the decision but to me it shows a bit of a lack of respect for an audiophile community that has greatly supported his products.  The least he could have done was continue to produce it until his next amp come on the market.  So for this he gets the "Slap Down" award for designers.
   
  So once again any comments you folks can muster up will be very helpful with my searching.
   
  Oh and BTW you don't have to quote this entire page for the reply, just do @WarriorAnt. Otherwise I'll be taking up an entire screen page!


----------



## Skylab

One thng to consider - as much as I love the Mini-Torii with the LCD-2 and HE-6, it doesn't work well with most conventional headphones, in that there is too much residual hum and noise with headphones of high sensitivity. If you plan now or in the future to use other headphones, the Woo amps or the Schiit will be better choices. OTOH, if you do want to power efficient speakers, then the Mini-Torii is the way to go of that group for sure.


----------



## USAudio

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> The Meier Concerto was a real front runner for me but it seems as soon as I ordered my LCD-2's he decided t stop making it.  Now my comments may seem controversial for some about this topic but here they are.  The guy was making an amp that many have declared works really well with the LCD and then he decided to dimply stop making it. Come on man! I don't know why he made the decision but to me it shows a bit of a lack of respect for an audiophile community that has greatly supported his products.  The least he could have done was continue to produce it until his next amp come on the market.  So for this he gets the "Slap Down" award for designers.


 
 Was that what happened, he decided to stop making it?  I thought he just ran out of stock and is "sold-out", at least that is what his web site says: http://www.meier-audio.homepage.t-online.de/amplifiers.htm
  I know he has his products made in China and just assumed he underestimated demand.  If demand is so high he certainly would commission another production run?  Unless something new/improved is in the works ...


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





skylab said:


> One thng to consider - as much as I love the Mini-Torii with the LCD-2 and HE-6, it doesn't work well with most conventional headphones, in that there is too much residual hum and noise with headphones of high sensitivity. If you plan now or in the future to use other headphones, the Woo amps or the Schiit will be better choices. OTOH, if you do want to power efficient speakers, then the Mini-Torii is the way to go of that group for sure.


 


  I'm not planning on having anything other than the LCD-2's, the DAC, and the Amp I choose.  I don't have that audiophile curiosity for the hunt anymore and I'm thinking if the curiosity urge does raise it's costly head that tube rolling might be enough to satisfy the urge.  I really prefer to hear music thru the air.  Residual hum and noise is a concern for me with any tube gear, will I experience it to any degree with the Mini-Tori?   I'm also hoping to use the variable output feature in Wyred 4 Sound DAC-2 as the system volume control which I imagine would allow me to avoid the volume control in the Mini-Tori unless I am  completely mistaken about that DAC's feature.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





usaudio said:


> Was that what happened, he decided to stop making it?  I thought he just ran out of stock and is "sold-out", at least that is what his web site says: http://www.meier-audio.homepage.t-online.de/amplifiers.htm
> 
> I know he has his products made in China and just assumed he underestimated demand.  If demand is so high he certainly would commission another production run?  Unless something new/improved is in the works ...


 

 It was my understanding from the various folks on this website that he isn't going to produce anymore.  If i'm wrong I hope someone corrects me and soon!


----------



## DannyBuoy

For what its worth; I owned a WA6SE (Sophia Princess) with Audio-Gd premium power cord and Audio-Gd NFB2 DAC when I first got my LCD2. I thought the sound quality was a big advancement from my D7000 cans and I liked it a lot.
   
  About a week later I ordered a Violectric V181 with 24/96 USB module (needed to sell WA6 and NFB2 to fund V181) and for a week or so I had both the V181 and the WA6. After a few A/B comparisons, I unplugged the WA6 and boxed it up for sale. I was thoroughly convinced the SQ of the V181 was vastly better than the WA6 with the LCD2.
   
  However, when I did an A/B between my NFB2 DAC and the option USB module in the V181 I was disappointed. The USB module was a waste of money for me. The NFB2 although slightly warmer had much more dynamics in the music. So after selling the NFB2 and WA6SE I decided to buy an Audio-Gd Ref5.
   
  So now I am connected to my music server via coax optical to Ref5 and via balanced XLR between Ref5 and V181. During this time I also ordered a Norse Audio 8 wire balanced cable with a nice Neutrik 4 pin connector (which is what the V181 uses). I am on a whole-nuddder-level now. The clarity in the mids and highs are incredibly more detailed and increased separation. The bass is bangin, slammin now. The whole system is just tighter, firmer, crisper, and on and on...
   
  I can only speak for what I have tried and what my opinions are of course is based on what I like in sound so keep that in mind but I am very happy (I just got a few cables from Cullen Cables and have replaced the XLR interconnects and coax optical, but still have to connect the power cord but need to drill a 2 inch hole in my desk as the power cord is massive).
   
  Good luck!
  
   
  Quote:


warriorant said:


> I'm going insane but I'm making some headway for my headphone rig.   I'm only going to buy one headphone so I ordered a pair of LCD-2's last Sunday night.  I didn't want to do the trek thru the cans by getting different cans thru time so I decided to just go ahead and get the LCD-2's.  I don't really have any experience with cans other than my daughters Grado 80's and her Audio-Technica ATH AD700's.   They're not very inspiring.  Last week I sold off all my high end speaker gear which has been absconding my living room forever and decided since I spend more time listening to music now in my computer/office/reading room it's time to try headphones.
> 
> For years I had a Theta DAC and realize how very important a good DAC is so I've settled on a Wyred 4 Sound DAC-2 to go with the LCD-2's.  That's 2 out of 3.   But now I'm completely torn between some of the amps I've posted earlier.  I'm not set in concrete when it comes to buying something made here in the U.S. but I feel more comfortable about the manufacturers being nearby even in today's world of next day shipping.
> 
> ...


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





dannybuoy said:


> For what its worth; I owned a WA6SE (Sophia Princess) with Audio-Gd premium power cord and Audio-Gd NFB2 DAC when I first got my LCD2. I thought the sound quality was a big advancement from my D7000 cans and I liked it a lot.
> 
> About a week later I ordered a Violectric V181 with 24/96 USB module (needed to sell WA6 and NFB2 to fund V181) and for a week or so I had both the V181 and the WA6. After a few A/B comparisons, I unplugged the WA6 and boxed it up for sale. I was thoroughly convinced the SQ of the V181 was vastly better than the WA6 with the LCD2.
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks!  It's worth a lot to me to see what people are doing and I appreciate the longer response. I'm going to have to explore the music server world since I'm transitioning from the CD world to the world of files.  I'm just now trusting FLAC and ALAC as opposed to straight AIFF. I'm slow to change.  What music server are you using with your LCD's?


----------



## MacedonianHero

warriorant said:


> I'm going insane but I'm making some headway for my headphone rig.   I'm only going to buy one headphone so I ordered a pair of LCD-2's last sunday night.  I didn't want to do the trek thru the cans by getting different cans thru time so I decided to just go ahead and get the LCD-2's.  I don't really have any experience with cans other than my daughters Grado 80's and her Audio-Technica ATH AD700's.   They're not very inspiring.  Last week I sold off all my high end speaker gear which has been absconding my living room forever and decided since I spend more time listening to music now in my computer/office/reading room it's time to try headphones.
> 
> For years I had a Theta DAC and realize how very important a good DAC is so I've settled on a Wyred 4 Sound DAC-2 to go with the LCD-2's.  That's 2 out of 3.   But now I'm completely torn between some of the amps I've posted earlier.  I'm not set in concrete when it comes to buying something made here in the U.S. but I feel more comfortable about the manufacturers being nearby even in today's world of next day shipping.
> 
> ...




Well, as I three of the amps you mentioned (except the WA6SE and Mini Tori), I would rank them this way with respect to powering the LCD-2s:

Lyr
WA2 (with 5998 or 7236 power tubes)
Concerto

For my T1s/HD800s I would put the WA2 at the top of the list (with the 5998 power tubes), then a toss up between the Lyr and Concerto.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Wow, that's saying a lot for the Lyr!  What's your favorite quality of the lyr in relation to the LCD-2's compared to the WA2's?


----------



## MacedonianHero

warriorant said:


> Wow, that's saying a lot for the Lyr!  What's your favorite quality of the lyr in relation to the LCD-2's compared to the WA2's?




Two words: MOAR POWER

With my Concerto and WA2, I found the treble a bit too pushed back and the sound staging more closed in. With the Lyr, both were greatly improved. This showed me that these orthos really need power to reveal what they can really do. The Lyr puts 4 Watts into 50 ohms....plenty of headroom for both my LCD-2 and HE-6s. Between them, I prefer the WA2 to the Concerto with the LCD-2s by a small margin.

Now, with my T1s and HD800s, I prefer my WA2 by a reasonable margin. Sadly, I have yet to come across a "one size fits all" amping solution for all 4 headphones. Then there's my Ed. 8LEs and IEMs, which exclusively go with my Concerto.


----------



## Skylab

WarriorAnt I get no hum or noise with the Mini-Torri via the LCD-2.


----------



## Wedge

Warrior Ant, I was curious what source would you be feeding the Wyred 4 Sound DAC 2 with?  Although I do not own it I would tend to think its 2 biggest advantages over other DACs are that it will work with the PS Audio PWT and it has Async USB, but if your not going to use either you might be able to find another DAC that is maybe not as good but very near its performance?  For my LCD-2, I use a PS Audio DLIII and feeding a Woo Audio WA-22, I think this combo works quite well but I am using the coaxial input.  I don't think the DLIII usb input is all that great.  If you don't like the DLIII you can find a number of different very good DACs (with all different kinds of chips, I happen to like the DLIII, because it has a FET based output and a seemingly very solid power supply), reasonably priced, the Audio-GD ones I have heard (I don't own them but I did spend some good time with my friends) sound quite good for a very reasonable price.  My thought here is that a great DAC is important if you have the equipment following it to allow it to show its greatness (I hope I don't antagonize any source battles here).
   
  Your preference to sound will kind of be personal though, so sometimes its nice to have a reference when reading people's reviews.  For example if you read Skylab's review of the 29 amps and happened to have heard one of them and your impressions were similar to his using the same headphones, then his viewpoints might very well be very valid to you.  I read a number of reviews for the Leben, including Skylab's and decided to go listen to it for myself.  I wound up ordering one on the spot.  Sometimes your amp choice will matter depending on your taste in sound, I had someone tell me they like the GCHA sitting next to my WA-22 better, but most people I know like the WA-22 better, including myself.  
   
  Another observation I have with the LCD-2s as others have said is that they love power, Planar Magnetics just seem to love power, and the more you can give them the more they seem to come to life (this is just my opinion).  I also have a Woo Audio WA-5 and I don't use it quite as much as I use my WA-22 (not just for sound reasons, I don't use cans quite as much at home as I do at work).  Anyways, I have heard the Lyr with the LCD-2s at a meet and my friend at work has this combo and really loves it.  Plus side is tons of tube options if you do not like the stock tubes.  I find that the LCD-2 can also benefit from a cable upgrade as well, I own the Moon Audio Silver Dragon v3, Norse Audio 4 conductor, and Norse Audio 8 conductor as for right now (been experimenting with different cables).
   
  Since you are not interested in the WA-22, and I do not own or have listened to the WA-6SE or WA-2 in any great length to make a recommendation or not, I can say that Woo Audio makes great amps and Jack is a pleasure to deal with.  I believe WA-6SE does offer more power at the impedance of the LCD-2.  So it is not necessarily true that the WA-2 will offer you more power at its output than the WA-6SE than the WA-2 in your case, the WA-2 is OTL and WA-6SE is Transformer Coupled output.


----------



## Edi

Wedge,
   
  I noticed you had the Yulong D100 as well. I've been thinking of upgrading it with another DAC but was unsure what would be a good match with a Squeezebox Touch, LCD-2, and WA6SE. Have you had a chance to compare how the D100 and DLIII sound with the LCD-2 and WA-22?


----------



## jeust0999

Hey Dannybuoy,
   
  I was wondering did your NFB-2 have the dir9001 or the wm8005 chip?
   
  Thanks.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Wedge,  for now I'm going to be using a 2009 24" iMac into the W4S DAC-2 as I have no transport at the moment having sold my Theta transport last week.   Sometime in the future I'm hoping to spec out the server scene. The three amps I'm considering are still the Decware Mini Torii because it can also drive a small speaker. The Woo 6 SE. and the Lyr.  As far as the Woo 6SE is concerned how important are the upgrades to the sound.  The Sophia Princess Mesh Plate 274B rectifier tube seems like it would make a big difference.    And as for the Lyr lots of folks talk about its power capabilities in relation to upper frequency control but I can't seem to find any reviews as to its presentation and it's overall musical qualities just that it delivers more power.
   
  so what do you think so far of the 3 cables you're using with the LCD's?  
   
  One more thing.  You get to use a high end headphone rig at work?  Nice!


----------



## MikeLa

While you're looking at Decware, you might consider the CSP+ / Taboo combo (6 watts).  Here is a discussion thread using the combo with LCD-2's  http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/535131/review-decware-taboo-an-amazing-achievment


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





mikela said:


> While you're looking at Decware, you might consider the CSP+ / Taboo combo (6 watts).  Here is a discussion thread using the combo with LCD-2's  http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/535131/review-decware-taboo-an-amazing-achievment


 


  Thanks I'll hop on over there.


----------



## Wedge

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> Wedge,  for now I'm going to be using a 2009 24" iMac into the W4S DAC-2 as I have no transport at the moment having sold my Theta transport last week.   Sometime in the future I'm hoping to spec out the server scene. The three amps I'm considering are still the Decware Mini Torii because it can also drive a small speaker. The Woo 6 SE. and the Lyr.  As far as the Woo 6SE is concerned how important are the upgrades to the sound.  The Sophia Princess Mesh Plate 274B rectifier tube seems like it would make a big difference.    And as for the Lyr lots of folks talk about its power capabilities in relation to upper frequency control but I can't seem to find any reviews as to its presentation and it's overall musical qualities just that it delivers more power.
> 
> so what do you think so far of the 3 cables you're using with the LCD's?
> 
> One more thing.  You get to use a high end headphone rig at work?  Nice!


 

 In general with most tube amps (not all), the sound will be impacted by the tubes used.  There are endless choices in rectifiers, in my WA-22 I use an old stock 5U4G and I have not been as big a fan of the 274B, which are currently in my WA-5 right now until the I get my EML 5U4Gs in.  A lot of old stock rectifiers are available on the web, and reasonably priced.  Its hard to guage how great of an impact a tube will have, I think that some people might be more sensitive to it than others.  The Mini-Torii can drive speakers yes, but not with respect to its size, more based on its sensitivity, the Mirage m-190 is a 6 ohm speaker with 85dB (most likely at 1w/1m) and the mini torii is 3.3w RMS @ 4 ohms rated, although for most regular listening it might be enough (the majority of listening I do with speakers is done with less than a watt). If you get a chance before you buy your gear perhaps you should try to see if their will be a meet around and listen to some of the gear others have.  As far as the Lyr goes, I haven't heard it in a little while, so I won't try to describe its sonic signature from memory, my friend who owns one is on travel right now so I'll have to wait until he comes back to give another go at it.
   
  LCD-2 cables I think that all the cables gave a little bit larger soundstage.  My impression is that OCC silver in general brings out the highs a little bit more, although more pronounced with the silver dragon.  I mostly use the Norse cable because its real light and flexible.  
   
  Lastly, the answer is yes I do, get to use a high end headphone system at work! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   


  Quote: 





edi said:


> Wedge,
> 
> I noticed you had the Yulong D100 as well. I've been thinking of upgrading it with another DAC but was unsure what would be a good match with a Squeezebox Touch, LCD-2, and WA6SE. Have you had a chance to compare how the D100 and DLIII sound with the LCD-2 and WA-22?


 

 I have not had a chance to directly compare each other, with all things equal.


----------



## Skylab

I spend some time this morning listening to the LCD-2 on the Mini-Torii (which normally I use with the HE-6).  I was reminded of just how great this combination is.  If you are using it with just the LCD-2 and perhaps some very efficient speakers, the Mini-Torri is very, very hard to beat.


----------



## Edi

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Wedge* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> I have not had a chance to directly compare each other, with all things equal.


 

 Ah ok, thanks!


----------



## tunarat

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> I'm going insane but I'm making some headway for my headphone rig.   I'm only going to buy one headphone so I ordered a pair of LCD-2's last sunday night.  I didn't want to do the trek thru the cans by getting different cans thru time so I decided to just go ahead and get the LCD-2's.  I don't really have any experience with cans other than my daughters Grado 80's and her Audio-Technica ATH AD700's.   They're not very inspiring.  Last week I sold off all my high end speaker gear which has been absconding my living room forever and decided since I spend more time listening to music now in my computer/office/reading room it's time to try headphones.


 
   
  Sorry to hear the abandonment of your speaker gear. I was "almost" in the same situation as you a couple of years ago. I ventured into cans and worked my way up through a few with invaluable advice from members on this site. You are absolutely making the right choice with the LCD's if you have been listening to speakers your whole life. Now however, I only listen to cans about 20% of the time and own only the LCD's and esw9's for portable. I use the Lyr and am satisfied with it's performance with the LCD's. 
   
  However, it seems as though price is not much of an issue for you. I would STRONGLY suggest that you wait until the liquid fire is available. The combination is leagues above the performance of the Lyr, and any other hp amp I've ever heard, even though it was in a meet situation, and a short stint in a personal system. If you wait for the fire, you will always be happy, and never need for an upgrade......but who knows


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





tunarat said:


> Sorry to hear the abandonment of your speaker gear. I was "almost" in the same situation as you a couple of years ago. I ventured into cans and worked my way up through a few with invaluable advice from members on this site. You are absolutely making the right choice with the LCD's if you have been listening to speakers your whole life. Now however, I only listen to cans about 20% of the time and own only the LCD's and esw9's for portable. I use the Lyr and am satisfied with it's performance with the LCD's.
> 
> However, it seems as though price is not much of an issue for you. I would STRONGLY suggest that you wait until the liquid fire is available. The combination is leagues above the performance of the Lyr, and any other hp amp I've ever heard, even though it was in a meet situation, and a short stint in a personal system. If you wait for the fire, you will always be happy, and never need for an upgrade......but who knows


 
   
  What's the Output Resistor Selection all about on the Checkout page for the Liquid Fire?

 Output Resistor Selection 100Ω
150Ω
0Ω


----------



## WarriorAnt

On the strong advice of some forum members I'm now checking out the LAVRY DA 11 and putting it in the possibility arena with the Wyred 4 Sound DAC-2.   Anyone familiar with the AVA VISION EC DAC?
   
  Is it just me or does anyone else have the feeling that a new wave of Amps and DAC's are about to explode onto the scene very soon?


----------



## runeight

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> What's the Output Resistor Selection all about on the Checkout page for the Liquid Fire?
> 
> Output Resistor Selection 100Ω
> 150Ω
> 0Ω


 

  Gents, I can't speak to which amp you should buy, but I can explain the resistor selection and try to do a better job on the website in the future. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  The map has two output jacks. One is connected directly to the output. The other has a provision for putting resistors in series with each channel output to effectively reduce the gain for low impedance headphones. This will give you more useable rotation on the volume pot for the low Z headphones. For power hungry low z cans and for higher volumes you can always use the direct output. So, this dual jacking arrangment provides some flexibility in handling the array of possible headphones that the amp might see.


----------



## mtntrance

WarriorAnt, I have a new Audio GD Phoenix and its warm after leaving it in for hours but not anymore than your average laptop.  Its really a non issue.


----------



## elnero

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *runeight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> ...and try to do a better job on the website in the future.


 

 Sorry, off topic, I'd suggest a more legible font, whatever you're using for body text is nearly unreadable using both Firefox and IE8.


----------



## runeight

Thanks for the feedback. I'll work on this.


----------



## oopsydaisy

@WarriorAnt
   
  I'm sort of in the same situation as you and I'm considering the same amps, except I've decided I'm going tube for sure and I also would like my amp to work with both my LCD-2s and my Edition 8s(if I'm crazy, let me know). I also have 2 more amps added to the mix, which are the Apex Peak/Volcano http://www.ttvjaudio.com/store/comersus_viewItem.asp?idProduct=32 and the WA22.
   
  Here are my Pros/Cons for each
   
*Decware Mini Torii* + stepped attenuator, headphone/speaker switch mod =*$1945*(not incl. shipping)
*Pros*: Haven't heard 1 bad thing about it with LCD-2. Lifetime warranty. Can be used with speakers
*Cons*: Only works with very efficient speakers. Lots o' tubes(not that big of a deal and probably fun)
   
*Apex Peak/Volcano* =*$2095*(not incl. shipping)
*Pros: *I've been very impressed with the TTVJ Slim, which was also designed Pete Millett. 1 tube. Can be used with speakers. Separate power supply
*Cons*: Not too many people on Head-fi have heard this with LCD-2
   
*Woo Audio WA2* maxxed =*$1855*(not incl. shipping)
*Pros*: People seem to like it with LCD-2. Can be used with speakers. Local to me
*Cons*: No power cable(really?)
   
*Woo Audio WA6SE* maxxed =*$1790*(not incl. shipping)
*Pros*: People seem to like it with the LCD-2. 3 tubes. Separate power supply. Local to me
*Cons*: No power cable(really?). Can't be used with speakers
   
*Woo Audio WA22* =*$1900*(not incl. shipping)
*Pros*: People seem to like it with the LCD-2. Balanced. Local to me
*Cons*: No power cable(really?). Can't be used with speakers
   
*Schiit Lyr* =*$449*(not incl. shipping)
*Pros*: Lots o' power! 2 tubes. Cheap!
*Cons*: Some people have reported hum, though not apparent during actual music playback. Tubes can be tricky to roll, although I have seen some good advice on how to make it easier
   
  Right now, I'm leaning toward the WA6SE or the Mini Torii. If anyone knows which of these will definitely not work well with my Edition 8s, please advise. BTW, prices above do not include any tube upgrades. 
   
   
  Edited to include WA22


----------



## grokit

An alternative to the maxxed WA2 would be the stock WA22 for the same price. Two 2's = twice as good lol.


----------



## jk6661

Just FYI, Steve at Decware told me the stepped attenuator probably isn't needed on the Mini Torii for the LCD-2s because they're relatively inefficient and you'll need to turn up the volume a bit more than with other cans. Saves about $200.


----------



## oopsydaisy

Quote: 





jk6661 said:


> Just FYI, Steve at Decware told me the stepped attenuator probably isn't needed on the Mini Torii for the LCD-2s because they're relatively inefficient and you'll need to turn up the volume a bit more than with other cans. Saves about $200.


 

 Good to know. Thanks


----------



## USAudio

Quote: 





jk6661 said:


> Just FYI, Steve at Decware told me the stepped attenuator probably isn't needed on the Mini Torii for the LCD-2s because they're relatively inefficient and you'll need to turn up the volume a bit more than with other cans. Saves about $200.


 Just for clarification; So stepped attenuators are only really necessary for lower volume levels due to potential channel imbalance issues with pots?


----------



## DeadEars

Quote: 





usaudio said:


>


 

 Not sure what's happening to the "quote" macro here...
   
  Anyway, to my mind when you go for a stepped attenuator you are trading off  convenience (continuously variable volume) for purity (signal only goes through a single high-quality resistor at each attenuator stop).  Has little to do with volume level or even channel matching, other than the fact that very high precision resistors can be used in attenuators for each channel, so balancing can be better.
   
  The kind of resistance at this point in most amplifier signals can be very audible.  In fact the manufacturer of my preamp (First Sound) offers several ridicuously expensive options where the only change is "better" grades of resistors being used.  Because every setting requires a different resistor, a stereo pair of attenuators gets expensive very quickly when using premium audiophool parts.
   
  Not sure why high settings on the pots would be better, unless it is just that they offer low resistance at that point, so their sonic effects are minimized??   Someone enlighten me?
   
   
  Frank


----------



## Solude

Stepped attenuators are to have better channel matching and transparency.  Pots can be imbalanced down low on the sweep.  That said good manufacturers channel balance check the pots before using them.  nuForce however does not and have been slammed for being in one case 8dB off per side low on the sweep.  The massive disadvantage to stepped is the steps.  Generally an amp built for one headphone can get away with steps but two without a gain switch would suck.  On my KGSS, only used for the O2, I needed inline attenuators to make the stepped usable.  Something to consider especially if you can't try before you buy given anything extra mean no returns.
   
  The other thing to consider is that the LCD-2 isn't that inefficient.  My Zune can play it louder than I would listen to for long, the Burson... well its on low gain jack and about 10 o'clock most days.  I wouldn't pair it to a weak amp, but these 6W monsters aren't exactly needed to get deep into permanent hearing damage territory.  HE-6 though, that another story


----------



## Skylab

Yeah, in general I will take the convenience of a continuously variable pot any day, although most of my favorite amps like the Leben and Decware have stepped attenuators


----------



## Solude

Nods, my KGSS and Burson are stepped but man the black velvet in my B22 is so butter smooth


----------



## Equus

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> What's the Output Resistor Selection all about on the Checkout page for the Liquid Fire?
> 
> Output Resistor Selection 100Ω
> 150Ω
> 0Ω


 

 Emailed Alex about that, and he suggested the 100 res for me, since I would be mostly using LCD-2's with the LF.
   


  Quote: 





oopsydaisy said:


> *Apex Peak/Volcano* =*$2095*(not incl. shipping)
> *Pros: *I've been very impressed with the TTVJ Slim, which was also designed Pete Millett. 1 tube. Can be used with speakers. Separate power supply
> *Cons*: Not too many people on Head-fi have heard this with LCD-2


 

 A few of the folks who reviewed the Peak used LCD-2's.  I know jax and I did.  Granted, that still doesn't make the sample size large, but the hard part mostly is finding out if your taste in music and sound (in general) jives with another person.


----------



## oopsydaisy

@Equus
   
  If you check out my post on the page below, you'll see that for me it's all about the vocals. Whether you like their music or not, I don't think their voices can be denied. Any amp that gives me the best representation of the vocals with the headphones I own would be ideal. Do you think the Peak/Volcano would do well with my Edition 8s as well?
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/437994/your-favourite-singers-vocalist/15


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





oopsydaisy said:


> @Equus
> 
> If you check out my post on the page below, you'll see that for me it's all about the vocals. Whether you like their music or not, I don't think their voices can be denied. Any amp that gives me the best representation of the vocals with the headphones I own would be ideal. Do you think the Peak/Volcano would do well with my Edition 8s as well?
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/437994/your-favourite-singers-vocalist/15


 
  I wouldn't say the ED8s strength lay in vocals in any case.


----------



## Equus

Unfortunately, I have very little experience with Ultrasones, and definitely none with the Peak/Volcano.  What the Peak does real well is imaging and clarity, so if that's the part of the vocals that you're looking for it excels.  To my ears it separates parts cleanly and clearly, sometimes almost too much so for my taste, but that may be what some folks look for.  I tend to like a more organic "emotional" approach to my music, basically if there's a song that I know "moves" me on one rig but not as much on another, I will lean toward the former.  So while the Stacker II is not as detailed, I prefer it over the Peak.  From my brief listen to jax's V181 (I think that's what he had), I preferred that as well.  If, however, "best representation" to you means clarity and detail to the vocals, the Peak is a very strong performer.  I think someone made the comparison that there's "truth" and "beauty" in music, and I've found I skew toward the latter.  They're not mutually exclusive, of course, but most of the time I've found rigs to have a tendency to lean one way or the other.
   
  ...and that post ended up longer than I intended to.  Heh.


----------



## Girls Generation

Does anyone use the LCD2 with a portable amp? I'm looking for a comparison between SR71B and Stepdance for the LCD2.


----------



## Equus

I've used my D10 a lot with the LCD-2, and have heard the cans with a Protector and a 2Move.  I didn't like it very much with the 2Move, but I didn't realize until I just recently sold it that I had it on a low gain setting, which may not have been enough for the LCD-2.  With the Protector and the D10 the LCD-2 works quite well.  Unfortunately I have absolutely no experience with the SR71B or the Stepdance.


----------



## MrQ

Quote: 





girls generation said:


> Does anyone use the LCD2 with a portable amp? I'm looking for a comparison between SR71B and Stepdance for the LCD2.


 
  Have you seen this?
   
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/548529/head-fi-tv-episode-003-cypher-labs-algorhythm-solo-a-game-changer

  Jude discusses using it with the SR71B and the LCD-2.    6:00


----------



## Currawong

jamato8 posted quite a bit in the main thread on the performance with various portable amps.


----------



## WarriorAnt

DAMN my LCD-2' are ready after only 10 days!  I thought it was going to take at least a month and I'd have a little more time searching gear.  Which brings me to my next question.
   
  Anyone using the Benchmark DAC 1 HDR with their LCD-2's?   How do they pair?


----------



## voodoohao

Hi guys, what would be a better setup for the LCD2, a DV337 or Little Dot MKVII+, coupled with a Matrix mini as dac. I'm trying to decide which amp I should keep as I would like to purchase an LCD2 ( hopefully in the near future ), but can't afford to keep both amps. Anyone knows what are the differences these two amps will make on the sound signature of the LCD2?


----------



## Skylab

I have not heard the Little Dot. The DV337 is a pretty powerful amp, but it's sound is slightly on the rich side. Some people find the LCD-2 to be already on the lush side of things, so you MIGHT find it to be too Mich of a good thing. On the other hand, the Woo WA2 is also a little on the rich side, and I like it a lot with the LCD-2; however, I am not one of the people who finds the LCD-2 to be too rich sounding on their own.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Skylab with all the numerous posts on this subject I cannot remember if you've heard the Lyr with the LCD-2's?


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> Skylab with all the numerous posts on this subject I cannot remember if you've heard the Lyr with the LCD-2's?


 

 My Lyr review loaner has not arrived yet.  Soon, I'm told.


----------



## Olias of Sunhillow

I've had my Lyr for a few days now -- it's a secondhand unit with stock tubes and is relatively well broken in. My initial reaction with the LCD-2 is that the bass is deeper and more impactful and the treble is much more alive with the Lyr than with my other amps (Concerto and WA6SE). That said, I find that some of the magic of the mids that I love in the LCD-2 is missing with the Lyr -- there's almost a grainy quality to the mids that is unlike any of my previous experiences with the LCD-2. I have some nice Amperex tubes I'll roll in tonight to see if they make a difference.
   
  My overall impression is positive -- the LCD-2 at times seem too relaxed with the Concerto and the Woo -- but the effect on the mids (whether real or just perceived because of the amp's effects on the top and the bottom) is something that will require more listening to puzzle through.


----------



## Equus

Interesting.  While the time I had with the Lyr was very short and at a meet, I don't recall graininess in the mids, and I'm usually sensitive to that kind of stuff...though mostly in the treble range.  I'll be interested to hear how things continue to pan out for you.


----------



## MoNelly

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> DAMN my LCD-2' are ready after only 10 days!  I thought it was going to take at least a month and I'd have a little more time searching gear.  Which brings me to my next question.
> 
> Anyone using the Benchmark DAC 1 HDR with their LCD-2's?   How do they pair?


 
  I use a Benchmark DAC1 USB>Lyr>LCD-2s. I've also used the headphone out on the Benchmark, and it does a remarkably good job with the LCD-2s. Over the years I've tried many different headphones with the Benchmark, and I was never particularly impressed. But it's definitely doing something right with the LCD-2s. It's a surprisingly good combo, and I would reckon the HDR would be as well. If I were you I'd definitely give it a spin before buying another amp...


----------



## jax

Quote: 





dannybuoy said:


> For what its worth; I owned a WA6SE (Sophia Princess) with Audio-Gd premium power cord and Audio-Gd NFB2 DAC when I first got my LCD2. I thought the sound quality was a big advancement from my D7000 cans and I liked it a lot.
> 
> About a week later I ordered a Violectric V181 with 24/96 USB module (needed to sell WA6 and NFB2 to fund V181) and for a week or so I had both the V181 and the WA6. After a few A/B comparisons, I unplugged the WA6 and boxed it up for sale. I was thoroughly convinced the SQ of the V181 was vastly better than the WA6 with the LCD2.
> 
> ...


 
  My experience is very close to yours, DannyBuoy.  I had a Woo WA6SEm that I liked very much with HD800's.  It also did pretty good with the midrange on the LCD-2's but I felt that the frequency extremes were lacking.  I was using good tubes as well (EML 5u4G with which I rolled a variety of driver tubes).  I blamed the lack of extension on the LCD-2's initially until I heard them with other amps (Apex Peak Volcano and Violectric V181) and realize they were capable of far better performance than I was getting with the Woo.  In direct comparison the Woo seemed to round off the edges of the highs and fell off to such an extent in some frequencies that content went missing or was very recessed. It also did not reach as low, nor with much control on the low end.  Don't get me wrong, the WA6SEm is a damn fine amp...just not with the LCD-2's (my ears, my music).  I thought the APV sounded fantastic with the LCD-2's (I did one of the reviews on the Loaner thread so you can see my comments there).  I also ended up buying a V181 and am using it, as you, with a Norse 8-strand via balanced.  The performance is excellent, though if I had to find something to criticize I'd say it errs towards the neutral rather than euphonic midrange of the APV and Woo.  Very easy to forgive in listening to the whole package though, and the only time that occurred to me as a criticism was listening in direct comparison to the Woo and to the APV.  I use an AudioGD Ref. 8 DAC and am delighted with that DAC - uses the same PCM1704 chips that your 5 uses (the DAC in my main system also uses that chip so I guess I'm a fan).  I'd agree that the combination of LCD2 yields a crisp, clear, natural combo.  The sound is punchy and fast without being aggressive at all.  Music comes from a dead black background.  It seems to be always  in-control and utterly non-fatiguing.  I  haven't done much comparison of the balanced vs SE as I'd have to go to the stock cable in order to do that (another variable to consider so may not be worth the effort).  I'm not sure if he's still  using it, but it was actually Trevor at Norse who initially made the suggestion to me to check out the Violectric.  I'm glad I did.


----------



## USAudio

Quote: 





monelly said:


> I use a Benchmark DAC1 USB>Lyr>LCD-2s. I've also used the headphone out on the Benchmark, and it does a remarkably good job with the LCD-2s. Over the years I've tried many different headphones with the Benchmark, and I was never particularly impressed. But it's definitely doing something right with the LCD-2s. It's a surprisingly good combo, and I would reckon the HDR would be as well. If I were you I'd definitely give it a spin before buying another amp...


 
  The DAC1 is a great product.  The Lavry DA11 is very similar with excellent DA conversion and jitter rejection but IMHO has many other advantages over the DAC1.  Such as a powerful discrete headphone output (no opamps) and a digitally controlled analog volume control (no pot) with digital readout.  The digital readout has been handy in that it allows you to return to specific volume settings, each increment is 1dB.  Also when using the DA11's variable outputs with the readout you know exactly what your output voltage is (there's a graph in the DA11's manual).  Plus you never have to open the case as there are no internal jumpers to ever set, everything is controlled through the front panel.
   
  With my system I actually control the volume level exclusively using the DA11's volume control (with a remote) and leave the Lyr's volume around 12 o'clock. 
  As the DA11 can crank out up to 6v RMS unbalanced at it's outputs I asked Jason@Schiit about the Lyr's maximum input voltage and he said it would be almost impossible to overload the Lyr's inputs.


----------



## sluker

Quote: 





voodoohao said:


> Hi guys, what would be a better setup for the LCD2, a DV337 or Little Dot MKVII+, coupled with a Matrix mini as dac. I'm trying to decide which amp I should keep as I would like to purchase an LCD2 ( hopefully in the near future ), but can't afford to keep both amps. Anyone knows what are the differences these two amps will make on the sound signature of the LCD2?


 
  I have not heard the DV 337, or the LD MKVII+ so i am not sure if this will help. But I own the LF339 which I understand is similar and was designed by the same person as the DV 337. So far (after 2 days) the LF 339 is head and shoulders above the M-stage (which is no slouch with the class A bias mod). Silent background, deep and wide sound stage, and great air between the instruments. The LF 339 drives the LCD-2 with much more authority than the HE5-LE's (which I am convinced need a speaker amp to do their thing). By the way the source is FLAC-->USB-->Onkyo NDS-1-->COAX-->V-DAC.
  I am rocking out to the new Foo Fighters (analog recording in Dave's garage apparently) as I type this. I can't imagine these cans sounding better.


----------



## MoNelly

Quote: 





usaudio said:


> The DAC1 is a great product.  The Lavry DA11 is very similar with excellent DA conversion and jitter rejection but IMHO has many other advantages over the DAC1.  Such as a powerful discrete headphone output (no opamps) and a digitally controlled analog volume control (no pot) with digital readout.  The digital readout has been handy in that it allows you to return to specific volume settings, each increment is 1dB.  Also when using the DA11's variable outputs with the readout you know exactly what your output voltage is (there's a graph in the DA11's manual).  Plus you never have to open the case as there are no internal jumpers to ever set, everything is controlled through the front panel.
> 
> With my system I actually control the volume level exclusively using the DA11's volume control (with a remote) and leave the Lyr's volume around 12 o'clock.
> As the DA11 can crank out up to 6v RMS unbalanced at it's outputs I asked Jason@Schiit about the Lyr's maximum input voltage and he said it would be almost impossible to overload the Lyr's inputs.


 

 I owned a Lavry D10 once, and thought it was a great DAC. At the time I was using it to drive a Headroom Millett Desktop Hybrid Amp, so I rarely used the integrated headphone amp. That, and I could never get used to the toggle volume pot.


----------



## MoNelly

Before somebody corrects me about the DA10 "pot" I meant the
  Potentiometer-free digitally controlled analog volume circuitry


----------



## USAudio

Quote: 





monelly said:


> I owned a Lavry D10 once, and thought it was a great DAC. At the time I was using it to drive a Headroom Millett Desktop Hybrid Amp, so I rarely used the integrated headphone amp. That, and I could never get used to the toggle volume pot.


  Yeah, the volume control toggle bugs a lot of people but I understand his reasoning for using it:
  http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/410565/the-lavry-da11-for-your-ears-only/15#post_5483146
   
  I rarely use the toggle and use a remote control to adjust the volume instead.


----------



## MacedonianHero

olias of sunhillow said:


> I've had my Lyr for a few days now -- it's a secondhand unit with stock tubes and is relatively well broken in. My initial reaction with the LCD-2 is that the bass is deeper and more impactful and the treble is much more alive with the Lyr than with my other amps (Concerto and WA6SE). That said, I find that some of the magic of the mids that I love in the LCD-2 is missing with the Lyr -- there's almost a grainy quality to the mids that is unlike any of my previous experiences with the LCD-2. *I have some nice Amperex tubes I'll roll in tonight to see if they make a difference*.
> 
> My overall impression is positive -- the LCD-2 at times seem too relaxed with the Concerto and the Woo -- but the effect on the mids (whether real or just perceived because of the amp's effects on the top and the bottom) is something that will require more listening to puzzle through.




That should help quite a bit. My thoughts mirrored yours with the stock tubes too. I popped in the Genalex Gold Lions and the mids are now lush and well defined.


----------



## jax

Quote: 





olias of sunhillow said:


> I've had my Lyr for a few days now -- it's a secondhand unit with stock tubes and is relatively well broken in. My initial reaction with the LCD-2 is that the bass is deeper and more impactful and the treble is much more alive with the Lyr than with my other amps (Concerto and WA6SE). That said, I find that some of the magic of the mids that I love in the LCD-2 is missing with the Lyr -- there's almost a grainy quality to the mids that is unlike any of my previous experiences with the LCD-2. I have some nice Amperex tubes I'll roll in tonight to see if they make a difference.
> 
> My overall impression is positive -- the LCD-2 at times seem too relaxed with the Concerto and the Woo -- but the effect on the mids (whether real or just perceived because of the amp's effects on the top and the bottom) is something that will require more listening to puzzle through.


 


 Olias - see my recent comment to this thread, as well as my review of the Apex Peak Volcano in the loaner thread; my thoughts on the WA6SEm that I owned are very much in line with how you experienced the pairing with LCD-2's.  I have no experience with the Concerto to comment there.  I just recently had a brief listen to a brand new Lyr at a meet with my LCD-2's and a few other headphones and I was very impressed - I found it fun and engaging on that initial listen.  Not the last word in resolution, but I didn't find that to be a major detractor as the strengths far outweighed that.  Also, as I said, it was brand new without many hours of burn-in.  Very impressive for that price point. I did not notice any graininess though, but again, this was a brief impression at a meet.


----------



## chris.d.m.

Quote: 





usaudio said:


>


 


  I've only had the DA10 a few days but surprisingly, I don't mind the toggle too much.
   
  When I first git the LCD-2's last week I plugged them into my Sansui receiver and listened to a few track from a CD player, I was pretty blown away with the LCD-2.
  Although the DA10 HP out is fairly competent, I'm not feeling completely satisfied compared to the depth the LCD-2 seemed to have w/ the Sansui.
  The LCD-2 seems to me to do well w/ clean powerful (and IMO, SS) amps.
  ...Maybe even an amp that brings a little top end to life in the LCD-2 ?? Though this is an initial opinion and may change w/ more time with the LCD-2.
   
  I'm now seeking an affordable amp solution to accept the balanced output from the DA10. The affordable part is a challenge.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





jax said:


> My experience is very close to yours, DannyBuoy.  I had a Woo WA6SEm that I liked very much with HD800's.  It also did pretty good with the midrange on the LCD-2's but I felt that the frequency extremes were lacking.  I was using good tubes as well (EML 5u4G with which I rolled a variety of driver tubes).  I blamed the lack of extension on the LCD-2's initially until I heard them with other amps (Apex Peak Volcano and Violectric V181) and realize they were capable of far better performance than I was getting with the Woo.  In direct comparison the Woo seemed to round off the edges of the highs and fell off to such an extent in some frequencies that content went missing or was very recessed. It also did not reach as low, nor with much control on the low end.  Don't get me wrong, the WA6SEm is a damn fine amp...just not with the LCD-2's (my ears, my music).  I thought the APV sounded fantastic with the LCD-2's (I did one of the reviews on the Loaner thread so you can see my comments there).  I also ended up buying a V181 and am using it, as you, with a Norse 8-strand via balanced.  The performance is excellent, though if I had to find something to criticize I'd say it errs towards the neutral rather than euphonic midrange of the APV and Woo.  Very easy to forgive in listening to the whole package though, and the only time that occurred to me as a criticism was listening in direct comparison to the Woo and to the APV.  I use an AudioGD Ref. 8 DAC and am delighted with that DAC - uses the same PCM1704 chips that your 5 uses (the DAC in my main system also uses that chip so I guess I'm a fan).  I'd agree that the combination of LCD2 yields a crisp, clear, natural combo.  The sound is punchy and fast without being aggressive at all.  Music comes from a dead black background.  It seems to be always  in-control and utterly non-fatiguing.  I  haven't done much comparison of the balanced vs SE as I'd have to go to the stock cable in order to do that (another variable to consider so may not be worth the effort).  I'm not sure if he's still  using it, but it was actually Trevor at Norse who initially made the suggestion to me to check out the Violectric.  I'm glad I did.


 
  Checking my notes I had marked down the Audio gd NFB-8 to research along with the combination of a Violectric HPA 200.  I stopped pursuing it because I was initially confused by the USB option on the 200 not realizing that it was an option.  I'm also confused by the differences between the 181 and the 200.  Which violectric is better suited for the LCD's?  And am I showing my old school colors by discounting op amp designs?  
   
  I've literally spent day and night the past 14 days researching and learning about what might and what might not be good with the LCD-2.  One might think it would be a lot of fun to start from scratch but really it's been misery to have no experience at all! So I appreciate everyones volunteered info and experience and patience.


----------



## lyramax

I am interested in comments/thoughts on the pairing of the RSA Raptor or Stealth with the LCD-2, especially from folks who have auditioned or owned these combos.


----------



## jax

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> Checking my notes I had marked down the Audio gd NFB-8 to research along with the combination of a Violectric HPA 200.  I stopped pursuing it because I was initially confused by the USB option on the 200 not realizing that it was an option.  I'm also confused by the differences between the 181 and the 200.  Which violectric is better suited for the LCD's?  And am I showing my old school colors by discounting op amp designs?
> 
> I've literally spent day and night the past 14 days researching and learning about what might and what might not be good with the LCD-2.  One might think it would be a lot of fun to start from scratch but really it's been misery to have no experience at all! So I appreciate everyones volunteered info and experience and patience.  Rest assured I'm not posing, I'm buying!   It's just very overwhelming.


 
  The V181 is a balanced amp. The V200 is only available as a single-ended amp.  The USB option on their amps are just that - an add-on option where they integrate a USB input into the amplifier.  It is not what they are known for.  I have no direct experience, but would speculate that you could probably do better in using a good DAC between your computer/transport and your amp.  I've read at least one post that would suggest as much, but again, I have no direct experience to back that up and it is purely speculation. Here's what it says about the USB input on the LakePeople site:
   

Quote: 





> *return to top*
> 
> About USB *Which USB devices can be connected to the HPA V200 ?*
> Since the HPA V200 is a terminal device after USB regulations, it has a type-B interface. Connections can only be established to hosts (tabletop or laptop PCs). MP3 players or similar gear cannot be connected digitally via USB. Of coarse you may connect these devices in the analog domain.
> ...


 
   ​ 
   
   
   The V181 is an excellent match for the LCD-2.  I have no experience with the V200 to say one way or the other.  You can contact Fried Reim at LakePeople/Violectric in Germany and ask for his insight. He is very responsive and  his english is very good.  The US distributor is AphroditeCU29 and the gentleman who owns that is Robert.  As I recall, Robert has direct experience with using LCD-2's with these amps. You can purchase their products either direct or through Robert.  I'm not clear on how that works - there was a slight savings in going direct when I ordered, probably due to exchange rate.  I chose to order through Robert as the speed of shipping was faster and Fried did not mind either way, and both gentlemen were very helpful and courteous.  As I understood it, and I could be wrong, the USB input is purely in the analog domain.  I'm not sure how that works.  In the literature, and in my email exchange with Fred, it seemed to be more of a convenience option than anything else.    The V181 has 4 amps and puts out 2.1 watts into 50 ohms.  I believe the V200 has two amps and puts out 2.7 watts into the same load.  Fried did say that they are planning to come out with a balanced version of the V200, but that it would probably be quite a while before it is released.  You might want to ask him about that and see if he has a better idea.


----------



## Olias of Sunhillow

Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> That should help quite a bit. My thoughts mirrored yours with the stock tubes too. I popped in the Genalex Gold Lions and the mids are now lush and well defined.


 

 Tube rolling to the rescue once again... I wrestled the JJs out and popped in some Amperex (Holland) White Label 6DJ8/ECC88s. The hazy, grainy mids I experienced yesterday seem to be gone, replaced with a sound that's quite similar to the "lush and well defined" mids that are so appealing in the LCD-2/WA6SE combination.
   
  Interestingly, though, the Amperex White Labels produce more hum in the Lyr than the JJs do. This is not a dead-silent amp to begin with -- background noise is roughly comparable to what I recall from my MAD Ear+ HD, which is to say, always present but rarely if ever objectionable. The Amperex tubes brought the background noise up a notch or so.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





jax said:


> The V181 is a balanced amp. The V200 is only available as a single-ended amp.  The USB option on their amps are just that - an add-on option where they integrate a USB input into the amplifier.  It is not what they are known for.  I have no direct experience, but would speculate that you could probably do better in using a good DAC between your computer/transport and your amp.  I've read at least one post that would suggest as much, but again, I have no direct experience to back that up and it is purely speculation. Here's what it says about the USB input on the LakePeople site:
> 
> 
> ​
> ...


 

 Thanks for the info.
   
  I have found some of the manufacturers websites a bit confusing and sometime humourous. I don't know if it's a translation problem or they simply do not realize the info is confusing.  In the case of the the V181 and the V200 the website states that the V181 is a 2-channel headphone amplifier of "highest" quality and the V200 is a 2-channel headphone amplifier of "ultimate" quality.    I guess after highest quality there is something even higher which is ultimate.    I just find that funny. Decware is a bit corny with its suggested Retail Price and its Factory Direct Price.  Audio-gd describes one of its DACS the NFB-8 sound characteristics as "Neutral Without Harsh"  Audio-gd also has in its For Order column for some of its units as "Wating Customers Feedback".  I guess that means "special order". 
   
  Do the V181 and V200 use op amps and is that still frowned upon today?  Or am I stuck in the past?


----------



## WarriorAnt

In the case of a purchase from Europe or China is there an added customs fee that has to be paid?  I'm wondering because I hear about it but I haven't seen it.  So with the cost of shipping from europe and customs is it more cost effective to simply buy something made here in the U.S.?  Is there an international tax that also has to be paid in those countries?


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





olias of sunhillow said:


> Tube rolling to the rescue once again... I wrestled the JJs out and popped in some Amperex (Holland) White Label 6DJ8/ECC88s. The hazy, grainy mids I experienced yesterday seem to be gone, replaced with a sound that's quite similar to the "lush and well defined" mids that are so appealing in the LCD-2/WA6SE combination.
> 
> Interestingly, though, the Amperex White Labels produce more hum in the Lyr than the JJs do. This is not a dead-silent amp to begin with -- background noise is roughly comparable to what I recall from my MAD Ear+ HD, which is to say, always present but rarely if ever objectionable. The Amperex tubes brought the background noise up a notch or so.


 
  When you say the Lyr is not a dead silent amp to begin are you referring to the electronic noise floor, tube hiss, electrical hum or the physical hum from its transformer?


----------



## Skylab

lyramax said:


> I am interested in comments/thoughts on the pairing of the RSA Raptor or Stealth with the LCD-2, especially from folks who have auditioned or owned these combos.




The RSA Stealth, which I owned up until recently, while an excellent headphone amp, was not able to drive the LCD-2 properly. Actually got distortion at moderate listening levels. The Stealth is much more comfortable driving high-impedance headphones.


----------



## dannie01

I have the newly bought LCD-2 pair with 4 boards full balanced Beta 22, heavenly sound.


----------



## DeadEars

Quote: 





olias of sunhillow said:


> Tube rolling to the rescue once again... I wrestled the JJs out and popped in some Amperex (Holland) White Label 6DJ8/ECC88s. The hazy, grainy mids I experienced yesterday seem to be gone, replaced with a sound that's quite similar to the "lush and well defined" mids that are so appealing in the LCD-2/WA6SE combination.
> 
> Interestingly, though, the Amperex White Labels produce more hum in the Lyr than the JJs do. This is not a dead-silent amp to begin with -- background noise is roughly comparable to what I recall from my MAD Ear+ HD, which is to say, always present but rarely if ever objectionable. The Amperex tubes brought the background noise up a notch or so.


 



 Your hum comment is a surprise to me.  My MAD Ear+ HD Super II (whew!) is dead-silent via the LCD-2's, with a pair of Amperex Bugle Boys and a pair of new production Tung-Sol EL84's in it.
   
  The only time I get noise with the MAD is when listening to LP's.  Then I have an Aesthetix Rhea phono stage (with 10 tubes), amplifying a low-output moving coil Dynavector 20XL that does add some tube rush in conjunction with the MAD headphone amp.
   
  At the moment, however, I'm getting my best results with a vintage tube speaker amp.  I found an Eico HF-81 integrated tube amp for $40 at a garage sale.  After a little bit of repair (replacing the power supply capacitors, and a couple of coupling caps), the Eico seems to be working quite well.  Certainly a much cheaper solution than a $1,000+ headphone amp, although it too has a bit more noise, and a definite roll-off of the deep bass.  But it is just so sweet-sounding!
   
  The Eico uses 12AX7's in the line stage and EL84's with transformers in the output stage.  The transformer has taps for 32ohm output, which allows me to directly connect the LCD-2's to the output terminals (via a DIY adapter), without having to set up a voltage divider network.  It produces about 14 watts per channel which seems like a near-ideal match with the power handling capabilities of the LCD-2's.  I see these guys all the time on ePay for less than $500, sometimes much less.  Mine dates from 1959.  I wonder how many of today's op-amp-based amplifiers will still be working as well as the Eico HF-81 does 50 years from now?


----------



## Olias of Sunhillow

Quote: 





deadears said:


> Your hum comment is a surprise to me.  My MAD Ear+ HD Super II (whew!) is dead-silent via the LCD-2's, with a pair of Amperex Bugle Boys and a pair of new production Tung-Sol EL84's in it.
> 
> The only time I get noise with the MAD is when listening to LP's.  Then I have an Aesthetix Rhea phono stage (with 10 tubes), amplifying a low-output moving coil Dynavector 20XL that does add some tube rush in conjunction with the MAD headphone amp.


 
   
  My recently sold Super II was also very silent... not dead silent like my Concerto, but very quiet. The standard Ear+ HD that I owned until about four months ago was built as a kit by another Head-Fi'er and had been modified somewhat from the original design, so I'm not sure if the tube hum it exhibited (with any source) is native to the Ear+ HD or related to the individual build or mods. I probably should have been clearer about that in my previous post.
   
  I just received my F-117 Nighthawk phono stage back from Ray Samuels, so I'll have the ability to try my LOMC Denon DL103R with the Lyr today. I don't have a step-up and my PS Audio GCPH isn't up to the job itself, so I've been testing the Lyr with a DL160 and Dyna 10x5 so far.


----------



## DeadEars

I've heard great things about the Nighthawk phono stage.  Heck of a value!  Hope it works well for your application.  The Denon 103R is a very natural-sounding cart.  I have one on a vintage Thorens TT that sounds lovely.  Mine was modified somewhat with a ruby cantilever when I had it rebuilt by Soundsmith.  The Zu Audio versions are also supposed to be a big step up too.  But even bone stock it's a great cart!
   
  On the amplification front, I have to admit, the LCD-2's really make any noise in the system much more apparent than when playing through speakers.  That's a good argument for a quiet solid-state phone stage, like the Ray Samuels ones, or the new John Curl parasound one.  My Rhea can be made very quiet with the right selection of tubes, but since it uses no step-up transformers it can get a bit noisy with very low output cartridges.  What I love most about it are the harmonic textures and timbre of musical instruments which I simply have not found with any of the solid state phono stages I've tried (a Benz PP-1, a modded GCPH, and the built-in one in a McIntosh MA6100).  My DV-20xl only makes about 0.23mv whereas the Shelter 501-II makes 0.53mv and is substantially quieter via the Rhea.  The Rhea is a joy to use, since you can change cartridge loading via remote control on the fly, as well as changing gain.  Makes it pretty easy to find an ideal match for the rest of the system with different cartridges.
   
  Not sure that this is on-topic, since phono stage ampflifiers probably belong in the source forum.  But certainly the LCD-2's provide a precision listening tool for helping find the optimal configuration!


----------



## USAudio

Quote:


dannie01 said:


> I have the newly bought LCD-2 pair with 4 boards full balanced Beta 22, heavenly sound.


 
  Dannie, who built your Beta22?  Thanks


----------



## jax

I believe in both cases it is simply a problem of translation.  I don't think either Fried or Kingwa are deliberately trying to be humorous.  Their english is far better than my German or Chinese so I'm happy to have a very direct connection with a manufacturer, even with such hiccups (and yes, they can be both frustrating and amusing, but at least they make a damn good effort).  I think Decware is just playing the retail game there with their pricing.  I know what you mean - it seems a bit silly to me too.  I can't find all of my correspondence with Fried, but seem to recall that he recommended using the V181 balanced with the LCD-2 because I also have a balanced DAC to feed it with.  I'm not certain that he'd offer the same advice for SE sources as he really likes the V200 as well.  They are currently the same price.  You'd have to check with him on that, as well as to confirm that I'm remembering correctly.  They design primarily for the recording industry with neutrality as a top priority.  I was a bit concerned by this as some of the DACs that come from the pro world have struck me as sterile and analytical.  That is far from the case with the Violectric which just seems to get out of the way very well creating a very natural presentation with the LCD-2 (to my ears, of course).
   
  I honestly don't know much to speak with any kind of authority on the Violectric topology. It does use opamps. All I can say for sure is that to my ears the V181 makes the LCD-2's sing sweetly, whatever it uses.  Again, Fried is a wealth of information on his own products, and the specs are on the site.  Here's what he had to say about the difference between the V200 and V181 (this is from an email that Trevor shared with me - I'm sure neither would mind my posting it):
   
   
  Quote: 





> [size=small]Concerning different sounds from V181 vs. V200 :
> 
> For me, V200 is sonically the best we have in the moment.
> (I am sure that the balanced version from V200 will be close to the summit)
> ...


 
   
   
  If I recall, Fried speculated a balanced version of the V200 to be in the cards for 2012.  It would require a larger case than either the V200 and V181.  I'd also suggest considering the Apex Peak Volcano as another superb contender for feeding your LCD-2's.  I'd say it adds a touch more euphonic sense to the mids, especially in vocals, but doesn't give anything up in the extremes to the V181.  It would come down to a personal decision - that and budget as the APV is about double the price. 
   
   
  Quote: 





warriorant said:


> Thanks for the info.
> 
> I have found some of the manufacturers websites a bit confusing and sometime humourous. I don't know if it's a translation problem or they simply do not realize the info is confusing.  In the case of the the V181 and the V200 the website states that the V181 is a 2-channel headphone amplifier of "highest" quality and the V200 is a 2-channel headphone amplifier of "ultimate" quality.    I guess after highest quality there is something even higher which is ultimate.    I just find that funny. Decware is a bit corny with its suggested Retail Price and its Factory Direct Price.  Audio-gd describes one of its DACS the NFB-8 sound characteristics as "Neutral Without Harsh"  Audio-gd also has in its For Order column for some of its units as "Wating Customers Feedback".  I guess that means "special order".
> 
> Do the V181 and V200 use op amps and is that still frowned upon today?  Or am I stuck in the past?


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





olias of sunhillow said:


> My recently sold Super II was also very silent... not dead silent like my Concerto, but very quiet. The standard Ear+ HD that I owned until about four months ago was built as a kit by another Head-Fi'er and had been modified somewhat from the original design, so I'm not sure if the tube hum it exhibited (with any source) is native to the Ear+ HD or related to the individual build or mods. I probably should have been clearer about that in my previous post.
> 
> I just received my F-117 Nighthawk phono stage back from Ray Samuels, so I'll have the ability to try my LOMC Denon DL103R with the Lyr today. I don't have a step-up and my PS Audio GCPH isn't up to the job itself, so I've been testing the Lyr with a DL160 and Dyna 10x5 so far.


 

 OT, but for a quick clarification: the GCPH can't amplify a LOMC signal enough to get adequate line volume/voltage into the Lyr? I thought that the GCPH was an extremely versatile phono stage.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





dannie01 said:


> I have the newly bought LCD-2 pair with 4 boards full balanced Beta 22, heavenly sound.


 

 Where did you buy the 22?


----------



## Ynoskire

The beta 22 is diy amp if i'm correct. You can buy the parts for one on the amb website, or you can buy a used amp from someone else.


----------



## DeadEars

Search is your friend...
   
  There are several people who will build one for you if you don't have the time or inclination for DIY.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





jax said:


> I can't find all of my correspondence with Fried, but seem to recall that he recommended using the V181 balanced with the LCD-2 because I also have a balanced DAC to feed it with.  I'm not certain that he'd offer the same advice for SE sources as he really likes the V200 as well.  They are currently the same price.  You'd have to check with him on that, as well as to confirm that I'm remembering correctly.  They design primarily for the recording industry with neutrality as a top priority.  I was a bit concerned by this as some of the DACs that come from the pro world have struck me as sterile and analytical.  That is far from the case with the Violectric which just seems to get out of the way very well creating a very natural presentation with the LCD-2 (to my ears, of course).
> 
> I honestly don't know much to speak with any kind of authority on the Violectric topology. It does use opamps. All I can say for sure is that to my ears the V181 makes the LCD-2's sing sweetly, whatever it uses.  Again, Fried is a wealth of information on his own products, and the specs are on the site.  Here's what he had to say about the difference between the V200 and V181 (this is from an email that Trevor shared with me - I'm sure neither would mind my posting it):
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks again for the info it is extremely helpful on the solid state side of my search.  I hope my comments about the humor in the translations didn't appear rude.  
   
  I was considering the V181 & the V200 with some of the following DAC's   Wyred 4 Sound DAC-2,  Audio gd NFB7 Both i believe have the Sabre32 ES9018 imparting the so called characteristics of that chip to the design,   and also the Audio gd NFB-8 using the Dual Wolfson WM8741 DAC chips which so many folks seem to think imparts a more musical presentation.    
   
  Folks seem to have more of a passion for the NFB-8 with it's chipset than the NFB-7 but both seem excellent when spoken of.  The prior is spoken of as more musical and the latter and the W4S more neutral.  
   
  Fred says the balanced V181 balanced "is simply stunning? and NFB-8 owners call it "Musical"  it's hard to ignore those types of descriptions so I'm wondering about these two together balanced.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





deadears said:


> Search is your friend...
> 
> There are several people who will build one for you if you don't have the time or inclination for DIY.


 

 True, and I have found a few people who build them but there is nothing like the recommendation from someone who owns one which was built by someone else.


----------



## DeadEars

Makes sense to me.  I've seen some highly idiosyncratic builds at meets.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





deadears said:


> Makes sense to me.  I've seen some highly idiosyncratic builds at meets.


 

 I'm trying to convince a meticulous engineer I worked with for many years in NYC to build one for me.  
   
   
  (BTW my profile says Arizona but I recently came here from Norwalk. I see your from CT).


----------



## USAudio

Another solid state amp to look at is the HeadRoom BUDA:
  http://www.headphone.com/headphone-amps/amplifiers/headroom-balanced-ultra-desktop-amp-buda.php
   
  They get a lot praise for their sound quality but not a lot of folks seem to have them. 
  They are not inexpensive but appear to offer excellent parts and build quality:  http://www.headphone.com/pdfs/BalUltraDesktopManual.pdf


----------



## WarriorAnt

Phase one done!  Payment sent for the LCD-2's.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





usaudio said:


> Another solid state amp to look at is the HeadRoom BUDA:
> http://www.headphone.com/headphone-amps/amplifiers/headroom-balanced-ultra-desktop-amp-buda.php
> 
> They get a lot praise for their sound quality but not a lot of folks seem to have them.
> They are not inexpensive but appear to offer excellent parts and build quality:  http://www.headphone.com/pdfs/BalUltraDesktopManual.pdf


 

 Oh no another possibility!


----------



## Pale Rider

warriorant said:


> Oh no another possibility!



My good friend loves his BUDA with his LCD-2s. My LCD-2s did not sound so good on my Apache, but the sing on the Taboo.


----------



## Olias of Sunhillow

Quote: 





grokit said:


> OT, but for a quick clarification: the GCPH can't amplify a LOMC signal enough to get adequate line volume/voltage into the Lyr? I thought that the GCPH was an extremely versatile phono stage.


 
   
  In my experience, no... the GCPH does not have enough gain to work with a LOMC without a step-up, even with a high-gain amp like the Lyr.
   
  My PartsConnextion Level 1-Modded GCPH has switchable gain on the back and a variable gain knob on the front. The variable gain has a kind of sweet spot between 11:00 and 1:00 -- push it much beyond 1:00, and the dynamics get pretty noticeably squashed. The sound becomes comparatively flat and un-involving. Even with the switchable gain at the highest setting, my DL-103R cartridge requires that the variable gain knob be pushed almost entirely to 100% (way beyond the optimal range for the unit), and the high-gain Lyr needs to be pushed to about 4:00 to get to a listenable volume. So while you can push the 103R/GCPH/Lyr combination to a typical listening level, it maxes out both phono section and amp and does not produce what I consider to be a pleasing sonic result.
   
  The Nighthawk has no such limitation with LOMC.


----------



## Frihed89

Does anyone, here, have any experience hooking LCD-2s to the speaker posts of a power amp?  I am considering hooking up my LCD-2s to an adapter that is hooked up to a 2A3 amp via the 8 ohm connections. (I don't have 16 Ohm taps).


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





olias of sunhillow said:


> In my experience, no... the GCPH does not have enough gain to work with a LOMC without a step-up, even with a high-gain amp like the Lyr.
> 
> My PartsConnextion Level 1-Modded GCPH has switchable gain on the back and a variable gain knob on the front. The variable gain has a kind of sweet spot between 11:00 and 1:00 -- push it much beyond 1:00, and the dynamics get pretty noticeably squashed. The sound becomes comparatively flat and un-involving. Even with the switchable gain at the highest setting, my DL-103R cartridge requires that the variable gain knob be pushed almost entirely to 100% (way beyond the optimal range for the unit), and the high-gain Lyr needs to be pushed to about 4:00 to get to a listenable volume. So while you can push the 103R/GCPH/Lyr combination to a typical listening level, it maxes out both phono section and amp and does not produce what I consider to be a pleasing sonic result.
> 
> The Nighthawk has no such limitation with LOMC.


 

 Thanks Olias. I have a stock GCPH with a MM setup and plan on moving up to an MC unit. I find that the best dynamic range/volume when I listen is around 2pm, I know what you mean though if I go any further. Your 103R is rated at 25 mV into 14 ohms; I was looking recently at the Denon anniversary TT which features the DL-A100, rated at 30 mV into 40 ohms. How much better do you think the GCPH would fare with the DL-A100? And are you happy with the level one mod compared to stock or was your GCPH already modded when you picked it up originally?
   
_"From the rear panel you can adjust the gain of the GCPH to 48 dB, 54 dB, 60 dB, and 66 dB. You can then adjust the Gain Cell for even more gain from the front panel. In short, the GCPH will provide enough gain for just about any phono cartridge ever made._
_Impedance setting are equally flexible. You can choose, 100 Ohms, 500 Ohms, 1000 Ohms or 47K Ohms regardless of what gain setting you are using."_


----------



## Skylab

frihed89 said:


> Does anyone, here, have any experience hooking LCD-2s to the speaker posts of a power amp?  I am considering hooking up my LCD-2s to an adapter that is hooked up to a 2A3 amp via the 8 ohm connections. (I don't have 16 Ohm taps).



hi Mac,

I have done this. I bought a balanced cable from Audeze terminated in 4-pin balanced XLR. I then used an adapter I bought from HiFlight that does from the 4 pin XLR to speaker leads. The key is you have to have the 4-wire balanced for this. 

That said, with my Leben CS300XS, there was a bit too much noise doing it this way. With the LCD-2, the Leben's headphone out was better. With the HE-6, it was no contest, the speaker outs were better.

Still, I would try it! Not too expensive, and the sound with your 2A3 amps might be heavenly.


----------



## Frihed89

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks.  I will try it.  I have a couple of single ended cables I can use, if I can find the right wires.


----------



## DeadEars

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> I'm trying to convince a meticulous engineer I worked with for many years in NYC to build one for me.
> 
> 
> (BTW my profile says Arizona but I recently came here from Norwalk. I see your from CT).


 
   
  Yup, I worked in Norwalk for about 15 years before I started my own business.  After leaving the midwest I spent most of my life on the Gold Coast of Connecticut (Stamford, Greenwich, Norwalk, Darien, etc.)
   
  Back on topic:  what amps have made your short list at this point?  Have you got it down to just a couple you need to audition yet?


----------



## dannie01

I bought this beauty second hand in HK and it built by naamanf in 220v, you can find it in the AMB's official website's Beta 22 Gallery, the naamaf's built (sorry, can't copy the direct link), the one shown in the gallery is very similar that I owned, it also built with the Twist Pear Audio stepped attenuator.
  Quote: 





usaudio said:


> Quote:
> Dannie, who built your Beta22?  Thanks


 
   
  Quote: 





warriorant said:


> Where did you buy the 22?


----------



## rgs9200m

I'm not sure If I said it before here, but, after a few amps (both tubed and solid state, some very expensive) that were definitely not right for it, the Rudistor RP010B is absolutely right for it, with
  great control of vocals and the whole upper midrange, and and overall groundedness that is exactly what the LCD2s need for me. There is some great synergy here to the point
  that I could live with this combo as my only music source.
  The detail is there, but digital glare is controlled, and thing are smooth and not grainy but not overly smoothed out to mask musical truth. It is just a genuine sound.


----------



## rgs9200m

I forgot to mention that my LCD2s have the ALO chainmail cable (balanced), but my cd player feeds the RP010 by single-ended cables.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Here I go again with another long banter.   When Audeze sent me an email saying my cans were ready I told my wife about it and then I did nothing.  I waited for 2 days until she asked me when they would arrive.  I told her I was having second thoughts even though I was not. Why? She asked.  Just get them.   I've been a big rig audiophile for a long time and I've learned a few lessons over time from observing other audiophiles which I have condensed down into 2 rules.  One, never let another audiophile into your home to hear your rig no matter how good it is if you are and want to remain happy with it. And the second rule?  Well You can probably guess that from the beginning of this paragraph. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  The other night I jumped up in bed and shouted "NO TUBES"!  apparently I was having an Audiophile Nervosa nightmare from my days with Conrad Johnson, Audio Research, Nestorovic and NYAL power amplifier mono blocks.  I began to remember how eventually all those tubes made me neurotic and crazy.  I loved the seduction of the tube amps.  They presented the music in such a LUCID manner. So relaxed and effortless. Like a really really good vinyl setup with a grasshopper cartridge.   I gave up tubes and went into the world of KRELL's. 
   
  So I know I'm going to go with a solid state amp as my main amp.  Front runners are Violectric 181, Violectric 200.  I cannot decide which and Audeze has complicated things by hinting they have  perhaps an amp in the works which will be announced "soon".  Damn this hobby!
   
   
  But I still have the tube itch so I know I'm going to have to have a tube amp also and since the LRY is so affordable and seems to have the power to drive the LCD's I can order one to have along side a solid state amp. 
   
   
   
  My DAC hunt is down to 2.  Either the LAVRY DA 11, or the Wyred 4 Sound DAC-2.  
   
  Now I got to call an electrician to install a dedicated line in the room for this gear...


----------



## sachu

audeze..making amps? where have they hinted this? link?


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





sachu said:


> audeze..making amps? where have they hinted this? link?


 


  It was hinted to me this week that "something special was in the works and to be announced soon.  While an amp per say was not mentioned or confirmed the topic was about which amps to use with the LCD's.  I'll say it again,  Damn this hobby!     Lyr also mention something to be announced in June I think. probably a DAC designed by Mike.  I had one of his DAC's for 20 years and sold it just last week.


----------



## Pale Rider

warriorant said:


> It was hinted to me this week that "something special was in the works and to be announced soon.  While an amp per say was not mentioned or confirmed the topic was about which amps to use with the LCD's.  I'll say it again,  Damn this hobby!     Lyr also mention something to be announced in June I think. probably a DAC designed by Mike.  I had pone of his DAC's for 20 years and sold it just last week.


 interesting. For a while, ther was a rumor of a combo package of the LCD-2 and the Cavalli Liquid Fire. Crazy hobby. Fun times.


----------



## jax

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> It was hinted to me this week that "something special was in the works and to be announced soon.  While an amp per say was not mentioned or confirmed the topic was about which amps to use with the LCD's.  I'll say it again,  Damn this hobby!     Lyr also mention something to be announced in June I think. probably a DAC designed by Mike.  I had one of his DAC's for 20 years and sold it just last week.


 


  Didn't someone post a link to a facebook post, or a twit, or some such finger-on-the-pulse riveting webformation, that suggested that they were designing a line array speaker system?  Or was I dreaming or delirious.


----------



## Skylab

Well, a speaker based on their planar-magnetic driver would make MUCH more sense than them making an amp would. The amp field is pretty crowded!


----------



## Wedge

Some posted a link to facebook, but they said something special in the works for the LCD-2, so I'm not sure that speakers would be for the LCD-2, but I have heard some rumors about Audez'e offering some sort of package deal with some amplifier.


----------



## Permagrin

warriorant said:


> Checking my notes I had marked down the Audio gd NFB-8 to research along with the combination of a Violectric HPA 200.  I stopped pursuing it because I was initially confused by the USB option on the 200 not realizing that it was an option.  *I'm also confused by the differences between the 181 and the 200.*  Which violectric is better suited for the LCD's?  And am I showing my old school colors by discounting op amp designs?
> 
> I've literally spent day and night the past 14 days researching and learning about what might and what might not be good with the LCD-2.  One might think it would be a lot of fun to start from scratch but really it's been misery to have no experience at all! So I appreciate everyones volunteered info and experience and patience.




Here's one of the differences (my apologies for the formatting):

Output comparison between: v181 vs. v200
Output Voltage in 50 Ohms 10,2 V | 11,6 V
Output Power in 50 Ohms 2100 mW | 2700 mW


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





wedge said:


> Some posted a link to Facebook, but they said something special in the works for the LCD-2, so I'm not sure that speakers would be for the LCD-2, but I have heard some rumors about Audez'e offering some sort of package deal with some amplifier.


 


  Someone had posted a FB link from a conversation I was having with someone from audeze about what amps they might suggest knowing full well they wouldn't suggest one but I thought I'd try.  They mentioned that they get that question a lot.  I suggested that they make their own amp and they responded that "there will be an announcement very soon Shhhhhhhhh!".  I assume they were talking about an amp.   Since then I removed my post from their page  because I was getting too many replies to it in my emails and none of them were helpful info.   
   
  I can't imagine them making a magnetic planar speaker.  I've had both Martin Logan's and Maggies and I think those two companies have the market tied up (even though Martin Logan's are elctrostats).  It would be way difficult to outdo  the tech they've advanced and refined over the years but who knows.  I'm ordering a Lyr first and waiting a bit till I go for the solid state. I'd like to see what audeze might offer up. I hope they weren't yanking my chain.


----------



## WarriorAnt

I sent an email to Wyred4Sound inquiring about the DAC-2 and the LCD-2's  They mentioned to me that they had a patron who drove the LCD's directly from the single ended outputs.  They also mentioned that the DAC-2 works very well as a headphone amp for headphones around 40 ohms and above.   They also mentioned that they use it daily this way with other headphones but have not tried it with the LCD-2's  
   
  This is info I have not run across.  I don't know how this is possible so I sent another email this weekend making an inquiry about that info.
   
  Anyone using LCD-2's directly out of the DAC-2?


----------



## Solude

100 ohm output impedance and driving headphones... err not great combo.  You could argue that planars aren't dependant on dampening factor but then there's the 135mW output cap assuming its not current capped in any way and can handle the heat of driving 50Ohm instead of 50Kohm.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Well, a speaker based on their planar-magnetic driver would make MUCH more sense than them making an amp would.


 
   
  Quote: 





warriorant said:


> I can't imagine them making a magnetic planar speaker.


 


  I can imagine it, just duplicate the Grado speaker strategy of stacking the transducers on top of each other:


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





grokit said:


> I can imagine it, just duplicate the Grado speaker strategy of stacking the transducers on top of each other:


 


  Is that a speaker made out of Grado headphones?


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





permagrin said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Hmmm, more voltage and more current from the V200.


----------



## MikeLa

I understand them not recommending an amp, but it would be nice if they would recommend an optimum spec.  I'm not technical, but I believe 2100 mw into 50 ohms will drive the LCD-2's different than 500mw into 50 ohms, and what about voltage and current?
   
  Or is it already published?
   
  -michael


----------



## Solude

Power is misunderstood by some I think.  The power drawn is directly related to the volume level.  A 2W amp doesn't drive the LCD-2 any better than a 10mW one while being played at 1mW just because it can go louder.  A good number of companies have made a living selling really high quality low power amps because in the end not everyone can use 1KW mono blocks   In the case of the LCD-2, HeadRoom measured it at 120mV to get 90dB.  I'm more concerned with buying the best amp overall than whether it can reach 130dB... something I'm never ever going to do.  To be clear I am not saying that high power amps are bad by default, many of the high quality amps also tend to be high power but to buy an amp based on power output alone?
   
  That said, of the amps I've had since the LCD-2, the B22 and Burson have been great.  The Burson plays more to the LCD-2's speed and razor sharp transients while the B22 has greater extension while rounding out that sharpness to be more refined sounding.  Layman's terms... rock vs jazz.


----------



## Permagrin

solude said:


> Power is misunderstood by some I think.  The power drawn is directly related to the volume level.  A 2W amp doesn't drive the LCD-2 any better than a 10mW one while being played at 1mW just because it can go louder.  A good number of companies have made a living selling really high quality low power amps because in the end not everyone can use 1KW mono blocks   In the case of the LCD-2, HeadRoom measured it at *120mV to get 90dB*.  I'm more concerned with buying the best amp overall than whether it can reach 130dB... something I'm never ever going to do.  To be clear I am not saying that high power amps are bad by default, many of the high quality amps also tend to be high power but to buy an amp based on power output alone?
> 
> That said, of the amps I've had since the LCD-2, the B22 and Burson have been great.  The Burson plays more to the LCD-2's speed and razor sharp transients while the B22 has greater extension while rounding out that sharpness to be more refined sounding.  Layman's terms... rock vs jazz.






			
				Permagrin said:
			
		

> Here's one of the differences (my apologies for the formatting):
> 
> Output comparison between: v181 vs. v200
> Output Voltage in 50 Ohms 10,2 V | 11,6 V
> Output Power in 50 Ohms 2100 mW | 2700 mW




Never mind, overkill either way.


----------



## Olias of Sunhillow

Quote: 





grokit said:


> Thanks Olias. I have a stock GCPH with a MM setup and plan on moving up to an MC unit. I find that the best dynamic range/volume when I listen is around 2pm, I know what you mean though if I go any further. Your 103R is rated at 25 mV into 14 ohms; I was looking recently at the Denon anniversary TT which features the DL-A100, rated at 30 mV into 40 ohms. How much better do you think the GCPH would fare with the DL-A100? And are you happy with the level one mod compared to stock or was your GCPH already modded when you picked it up originally?


 

 Hi grokit -- I purchased the GCPH secondhand with the mods already done, so I can't compare it to the stock unit. I would expect you'd have better luck with the DL-A100 than I've had with the DL-103R, but that's just speculation on my part.
   
  To come back to the topic at hand -- in the F-117/Lyr/LCD-2 setup I've been enjoying, I prefer the top-end sparkle of the Dyna 10x5 to the smooth and neutral presentation of the DL-103R. This is with a stock (for now) SL1200 mk2. The Lyr/LCD-2 combo is a real winner with LPs.


----------



## shingo43

Sorry guys, I read about 10 pages and am getting lazy and want to know what is the best/most recommended amp for lcd-2 within a price range.
  under $500, is it Lyr?
  under $1000, is it burson 160? 
  above $1000, I wish I had the money.
   
  also, does lcd2 works better with ss or tube? thanksg


----------



## LiqTenExp

deleted


----------



## Kremer930

I agree with what you are saying in general but with the HE6 and possibly to a lesser extent the LCD2's...more power does give greater bass extension and a greater sense of space.  I could be wrong but these are fantastic cans and well worth the investigation to find their real potential.
  
  Quote: 





solude said:


> Power is misunderstood by some I think.  The power drawn is directly related to the volume level.  A 2W amp doesn't drive the LCD-2 any better than a 10mW one while being played at 1mW just because it can go louder.  A good number of companies have made a living selling really high quality low power amps because in the end not everyone can use 1KW mono blocks   In the case of the LCD-2, HeadRoom measured it at 120mV to get 90dB.  I'm more concerned with buying the best amp overall than whether it can reach 130dB... something I'm never ever going to do.  To be clear I am not saying that high power amps are bad by default, many of the high quality amps also tend to be high power but to buy an amp based on power output alone?
> 
> That said, of the amps I've had since the LCD-2, the B22 and Burson have been great.  The Burson plays more to the LCD-2's speed and razor sharp transients while the B22 has greater extension while rounding out that sharpness to be more refined sounding.  Layman's terms... rock vs jazz.


----------



## adamaley

Hey guys, 
   
  Does anyone have any experience using the LCD-2 and a Red Wine Audio Signature 30.2 speaker amp? It's noted for being a great match with the k1000s. I would appreciate any input, even moreso in comparison to the HE-6 which seems to be the LCD-2s competition from what I have read. I am downsizing from a speaker setup with all Red Wine Audio components. I want to explore all possibilities before selling this venerable amp (IMO). Your assistance will go a long way in determining the direction I take into real headphone listening, which at the moment comprises an HD-580 / EMU-0404 computer experience. I have seen numerous posts stating that the LCD-2 is great with speaker amps, could you guys please chime in.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





jax said:


> Didn't someone post a link to a facebook post, or a twit, or some such finger-on-the-pulse riveting webformation, that suggested that they were designing a line array speaker system?  Or was I dreaming or delirious.


 
  They have excellent drivers for line array / sound reinforcement.  Haven't heard that they're moving into audiophile full range spkr arena.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





mikela said:


> I understand them not recommending an amp, but it would be nice if they would recommend an optimum spec.  I'm not technical, but I believe 2100 mw into 50 ohms will drive the LCD-2's different than 500mw into 50 ohms, and what about voltage and current?
> Or is it already published?
> -michael


 
  We've gone through this a number of times in the past, but 2100mW driving a 50 Ohm load requires 10.25 Volts.  To drop 10.25V across 50 Ohms requires 205 mA of current.
   
  So there's all your numbers...You change one, you change them all.
   
  For 500mW, you would have 5 Volts and 100mA. @ 50 Ohms


----------



## shingo43

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Well...of the amps I own, the best was the Leben CS300X.  The Leben and the LCD-2 together are HEAVENLY.
> 
> Next best was the Meier Concerto - which was also excellent with the LCD-2 (and is solid state, unlike the Leben...and also 1/4 the price of the Leben...)


 

 is Meier Concerto the best for that price range?
  how does it compare to Burson 160? 
  thanks


----------



## Solude

Quote: 





shingo43 said:


> is Meier Concerto the best for that price range?
> how does it compare to Burson 160?
> thanks


 
  Mind you I have the HA-160D but the Burson is the better pure amplifier.


----------



## shingo43

Quote: 





solude said:


> Mind you I have the HA-160D but the Burson is the better pure amplifier.


 

 Have you compare HA-160D with some other SS amps? Is it true that LCD-2 has a better synergy with SS than Tubes?
  is HA-160D and 160 basically the same thing, but 160d has preamp options and a DAC?


----------



## Wedge

I personally don't believe that the LCD-2 has a better synergy with SS over Tubes.  I love the LCD-2 with my WA-22, and I also heard it on the Leben which is phenomenal (after which I ordered one).  I heard the LCD-2 through my GCHA which isn't the best of SS amps buts its quite good for what I paid, as well as some Audio-gd.  I have not heard it through the Burson or Concerto, but I think that the LCD-2 paired with a great tube amp is hard to beat.


----------



## gopack87

Quote: 





solude said:


> Mind you I have the HA-160D but the Burson is the better pure amplifier.


 


  +1 I owned a Concerto but now own a 160D and I can attest to this


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





wedge said:


> I love the LCD-2 with my WA-22


 

 X2 on that one


----------



## grokit

The Musical Paradise MP-301 MK2 Mini Tube Amplifier sports 6.5 class A watts per channel into 4-8 ohms, and has two inputs as well as a headphone out and speaker terminals. It is *just* overdue for release, and they are offering a 5% discount off their price of *$260(!)* for pre-orders. Looks like it is made in China for a Canadian outfit. Anybody ever heard of it?
   

  http://www.musicalparadise.ca/mp/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=75


----------



## SemiAudiophile

Quote: 





grokit said:


> The Musical Paradise MP-301 MK2 Mini Tube Amplifier sports 6.5 class A watts per channel into 4-8 ohms, and has two inputs as well as a headphone out and speaker terminals. It is *just* overdue for release, and they are offering a 5% discount off their price of *$260(!)* for pre-orders. Looks like it is made in China for a Canadian outfit. Anybody ever heard of it?
> 
> http://www.musicalparadise.ca/mp/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=75


 

 wow...competition is crazy nowadays. I like it!


----------



## JIGF

Quote: 





grokit said:


> http://www.musicalparadise.ca/mp/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=75


 
   
  Nice find!


----------



## Skylab

Guys, there is a whole thread running on that amp. I just got one in for review


----------



## JIGF

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Guys, there is a whole thread running on that amp. I just got one in for review


 
   
  Oh you...
   
  Looking forward to your impressions on this little monster. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Edit: Quick question. Will you test the speaker amp?
   
  Here's a link to the thread:
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/536681/new-info-musical-paradise-mp-301-mk2


----------



## grokit

Ah well, when I searched Head-fi for MP-301 before I posted that nothing came up, but I didn't have "relevance" selected 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  So if it's rated at 6 watts into 8 ohms and the Lyr is 6 watts into 32 ohms, that makes the Lyr 4X more powerful according to the specs right?


----------



## JIGF

Quote: 





grokit said:


> So if it's rated at 6 watts into 8 ohms and the Lyr is 6 watts into 32 ohms, that makes the Lyr 4X more powerful according to the specs right?


 

 Not sure, but I think that's only for the speaker output.


----------



## Wedge

Not exactly, depends on how the output circuit is coupled.  The Lyr probably can't drive 24 watts into 8 ohms.  If the phone output uses different taps on the transformers than the speakers than it is possible that the Musical Paradise amp could put out more power at 32 ohms than taking 6W and dividing it by 4.


----------



## jax

This may be common knowledge too, but Ray Samuels is working on a high-power design - from his site:



> Announcing: The Dark Star Headphone Amp
> 
> March 23rd, 2011
> This is the headphone Amp that can KICK the butt of the hard to drive headphones like the HE-6s. The custom, Plitron Toroidal, transformer is designed to output 80 volts at 6 amps of current to satisfy the 4 buffers that each is capable to deliver up to 9 amps of current. The Dark Star is truly a monster headphone amp. Nothing like it has ever been designed.
> ...


----------



## grokit

Skylab did mention in that other thread that "for headphones is VERY powerful", so possibly another failure regarding the comparison of published amplifier specifications


----------



## kwkarth

This thread is beginning to remind me of a bunch of rabid pack animals on the hunt.


----------



## MikeLa

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> We've gone through this a number of times in the past, but 2100mW driving a 50 Ohm load requires 10.25 Volts.  To drop 10.25V across 50 Ohms requires 205 mA of current.
> 
> So there's all your numbers...You change one, you change them all.
> 
> For 500mW, you would have 5 Volts and 100mA. @ 50 Ohms


 
  Kwkarth, thanks I understand the ohm's law math now.  My question is what mW range is needed to drive the LCD-2's in the  60-100 dB levels without clipping?


----------



## Wedge

I guess my question is what are we on the hunt for?
  
  Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> This thread is beginning to remind me of a bunch of rabid pack animals on the hunt.


----------



## JIGF

Quote: 





wedge said:


> I guess my question is what are we on the hunt for?


 
   
  An amp for the LCD 2


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





grokit said:


> The Musical Paradise MP-301 MK2 Mini Tube Amplifier sports 6.5 class A watts per channel into 4-8 ohms, and has two inputs as well as a headphone out and speaker terminals. It is *just* overdue for release, and they are offering a 5% discount off their price of *$260(!)* for pre-orders. Looks like it is made in China for a Canadian outfit. Anybody ever heard of it?
> 
> 
> http://www.musicalparadise.ca/mp/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=75


 


  This has speaker terminals?  What kind of speakers can it drive with 6.5 watts?


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> This thread is beginning to remind me of a bunch of rabid pack animals on the hunt.


 


  Can you believe I read this thread two and a half times!  I forgot to take notes the first reading and forgot everything.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





mikela said:


> Kwkarth, thanks I understand the ohm's law math now.  My question is what mW range is needed to drive the LCD-2's in the  60-100 dB levels without clipping?


 
  1mW input @ 1kHz will yield 91dB output.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> This has speaker terminals?  What kind of speakers can it drive with 6.5 watts?


 

   


 [tr] [td]SENSITIVITY:​[/td] [td]  105dB @ 1watt/1meter
   
[/td] [/tr]   In continuous manufacture since 1946.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Those are cool!  What are they?


----------



## LiqTenExp

http://www.klipsch.com/na-en/products/klipschorn-overview/


----------



## Solude

Quote: 





shingo43 said:


> Have you compare HA-160D with some other SS amps? Is it true that LCD-2 has a better synergy with SS than Tubes?
> is HA-160D and 160 basically the same thing, but 160d has preamp options and a DAC?


 

 I have compared the LCD-2 on the Concerto, B22 and Burson.  The B22 is the "best" but its not the same price range so...  As for tubes, I've not heard any so no comment.
   
  On power reqs, HeadRoom's measurements peg actual effeciency closer to .2mW@90dB.  Or in other terms, my Zune can make the LCD-2 loud.  Sounds like poop but plenty loud.  Which is where quality and control over out right power comes in to play.  On both the Concerto and Burson I use low gain and never go past 12 o'clock.


----------



## oqvist

You find the Burson and the Concerto about equal?  I do preferr my LCD-2 on my GHP over the Head One. It get a bit to lush and soft on the Head One. Only bothering when looking for detail or reference listening I like the sound very much on both. But it doesn´t feel like I fully take advantage on what the LCD-2 can deliver on the tube despite I am sure it has a lot more power then the GHP. Which I preferred to the 2700 mW V200 for the LCD-2. It did throw a larger soundstage though so would like to give another watty solid state amp a go.
   
  Looked into the Audio GD C-2 SA but it´s being discontinued. C-2.1 looks interesting especially with it´s different opamps you can play around with. Running in class A and supposedly more neutral then SA but "only" 1W. A bit more then the Burson and Concerto can deliver at 50 ohms still though. Should be more then enough for 120 db peaks on the LCD-2? I don´t have any ratings for my GHP so no idea how much current it can pull. Suspect it´s closer to half a W then a W though based on conversations.


----------



## kwkarth

I am puzzled as to why people keep going in the same circles here.  This issue of how much power has been discussed ad nauseoum in this thread.  It's been settled  numerous times in this thread.  When the higher powered amps like the Lyr started showing up, it was confirmed several times by several listeners.  Why are we going around this same circle again?  Are you hoping the answers previously arrived at will somehow magically change this time around?  Maybe some of you have not read this thread even though you're posing the same questions that have been asked and answered many times previously in this thread?  It would be helpful for everyone to read the thread.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Let me just suggest that anyone starting a headphone rig from absolute scratch like I am take detailed notes when reading these daunting threads.  Every amp and DAC was entirely new to me and by the time I read it once I'd forgotten everything and had to read it again!  But man you guys sure have been extremely helpful!   I wish though that the Head-Fi search engine was somehow better.


----------



## Solude

Quote: 





oqvist said:


> You find the Burson and the Concerto about equal?


 

 No.  The Burson is the better amp despite being lower power.


----------



## USAudio

I think it would be handy to be able to load more posts per page, or perhaps even the option to load an entire thread in one page.  For extremely large threads there would need to be some finite limit as many machines will run out of memory before the thread completely loads but perhaps an option to be able to determine how many posts are loaded per page would make reading a large thread easier?  Then you can quickly scan a thread without having to keep hitting Next ...


----------



## Permagrin

Quote: 





usaudio said:


> I think it would be handy to be able to load more posts per page, or perhaps even the option to load an entire thread in one page.  For extremely large threads there would need to be some finite limit as many machines will run out of memory before the thread completely loads but perhaps an option to be able to determine how many posts are loaded per page would make reading a large thread easier?  Then you can quickly scan a thread without having to keep hitting Next ...


 
  That would be nice considering the current search function as then you could just ctl-F the window instead. I imagine it's something that would be easily implemented as well.


----------



## MikeLa

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> 1mW input @ 1kHz will yield 91dB output.


 

 Ok, so how do you match that up with a typical headphone spec like:
  500mw @ 32 ohms for the P1u, or
   power into Grado RS1 headphones 1.5W - which I interpret as 1500mw @ 32 ohms, for the Balancing ACT.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





permagrin said:


> That would be nice considering the current search function as then you could just ctl-F the window instead. I imagine it's something that would be easily implemented as well.


 

 If you're using Firefox you could try the add-on AutoPager. I would try it but I've given up on Firefox for Head-fi on the Mac.


----------



## oopsydaisy

Quote: 





grokit said:


> If you're using Firefox you could try the add-on AutoPager. I would try it but I've given up on Firefox for Head-fi on the Mac.


 

 I have also given up on Firefox for Headfi on the mac. The reply/quote page editor just does not work properly, but works fine in Safari


----------



## USAudio

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> This has speaker terminals?  What kind of speakers can it drive with 6.5 watts?


  Zu Audio also makes some efficient and very well-reviewed speakers:
  http://www.zuaudio.com
  E.g. Their Omen standard gives 98 dB SPL @ 1 Watt, 1 meter


----------



## monoethylene

Quote: 





mikela said:


> Ok, so how do you match that up with a typical headphone spec like:
> 500mw @ 32 ohms for the P1u, or
> power into Grado RS1 headphones 1.5W - which I interpret as 1500mw @ 32 ohms, for the Balancing ACT.


 
You will have a SPL @ 32 Ohm of 88dB or 97.5dB   I was wrong sorry!!
   
  The spec you have written tells sth about the amplification your amplifier is capable to do. If you look further in the spec you will see the value of 27mW @ 600 Ohm, whereas the reference level in audio is 1mW into 600 Ohm (equally to 0dBm). As a conclusion you can only say that you will have an amplification of  +14.3dBm @ 600 Ohm or +27dBm @ 32 Ohm (first case).
   
  The term 1mW @ 1Khz yields 91dB says sth about the sound pressure level of your headphone, whereas the reference level is the value of 20micronPa. You can as well calculate the contributed sound pressure to 0.7Pa.
   
  The German Standard DIN says that a headphone has to have at least an SPL of +94dB (1mW @ 1kHz). Nevertheless this value says nothing about the max volume of your headphone without distortion or sth of the SQ.


----------



## Permagrin

grokit said:


> If you're using Firefox you could try the add-on AutoPager. I would try it but I've given up on Firefox for Head-fi on the Mac.




Thanks grokit. I use Firefox at work (shhh) as the only alternative is IE which takes about 8-10 seconds to load a page. I recall not having issues posting with FF but the last couple days it doesn't show the cursor and carriage return or moving the invisible cursor doesn't do anything. Really annoying.


----------



## USAudio

Quote: 





permagrin said:


> Thanks grokit. I use Firefox at work (shhh) as the only alternative is IE which takes about 8-10 seconds to load a page. I recall not having issues posting with FF but the last couple days it doesn't show the cursor and carriage return or moving the invisible cursor doesn't do anything. Really annoying.


 
 Very annoying! 
   
  However I found a simple workaround - simply hit the editor's "Source" button twice. 
  For some reason switching it into then back out of HTML source editing mode causes the cursor to return.


----------



## Permagrin

Thanks much!

Cheers!

edit: quote malfunction rofl


----------



## JIGF

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> This has speaker terminals?  What kind of speakers can it drive with 6.5 watts?


 

 Something like this.


----------



## Wedge

I have Paradigm Studio 20s that I power with low power amps pretty well, I believe specs are something like 92 dB @ 1w/1m.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





usaudio said:


> Very annoying!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

  That's a great tip for the text editor but for me the FF 4 upgrade for the Mac gave me too much "spinning wheel" from the Head-fi scripts. I use Safari for Head-fi now and FF 4 for everything else on my Mac. On windows (Vista) I have settled on Chrome for most things but still use FF as well because of Chrome's limitations.


----------



## MacedonianHero

kwkarth said:


> I am puzzled as to why people keep going in the same circles here.  This issue of how much power has been discussed ad nauseoum in this thread.  It's been settled  numerous times in this thread.  When the higher powered amps like the Lyr started showing up, it was confirmed several times by several listeners.  Why are we going around this same circle again?  Are you hoping the answers previously arrived at will somehow magically change this time around?  Maybe some of you have not read this thread even though you're posing the same questions that have been asked and answered many times previously in this thread?  It would be helpful for everyone to read the thread.




I've agree completely with Kevin. With the Concerto, the LCD-2s are great, with my WA2 (and 5998 or 7236 Tung-Sols, slightly better), but since my Lyr has showed up and I finally got to hear them with 4 whopping Watts of power...I haven't gone back to my first 2 amps. 

Seriously, some of the "issues" I had with the LCD-2s have all literally gone away with the extra power. My HE-6s have never sounded better either. Orthos really are bottomless pits when it comes to more power.


----------



## bluemonkeyflyer

Just a word of thanks to all the knowledgeable and generous headfi'ers who have shared their advice, opinions, and experience on this forum that helped me decide to buy the LCD2's and the Dacmini.  I received my Dacmini a few days ago and the LCD2's 2 weeks ago.  Paired, they are...wonderful.  
   
  An audiophile friend with 40 years of experience with hifi headphones and room speaker systems came by for an audition, today.  Here's what he had to say:  "These headphones are the best I've ever heard; they are better than any full size speaker system I have ever heard."   He spoke of the richness of the SQ, the luscious mids (especially with female vocals by Diana Krall and Patricia Barber), the airy treble, and the deep bass extension that is so tight he could "hear the double bass player's fingers on the strings." He said he is going to sell his Stax system to buy the LCD2's.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





mikela said:


> Ok, so how do you match that up with a typical headphone spec like:
> *500mw @ 32 ohms for the P1u*, or
> power into Grado RS1 headphones 1.5W - which I interpret as *1500mw @ 32 ohms, for the Balancing ACT*.


 
  What do you mean?  The spec you gave is for an amplifier, not a headphone.  I don't understand the nature of your question.  What do you mean "match that up with...?"


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





permagrin said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  FYI, Firefox 4 is buggy with Huddler ATM, but Safari and Chrome seem to work fine.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





bluemonkeyflyer said:


> Just a word of thanks to all the knowledgeable and generous headfi'ers who have shared their advice, opinions, and experience on this forum that helped me decide to buy the LCD2's and the Dacmini.  I received my Dacmini a few days ago and the LCD2's 2 weeks ago.  Paired, they are...wonderful.
> 
> An audiophile friend with 40 years of experience with hifi headphones and room speaker systems came by for an audition, today.  Here's what he had to say:  "These headphones are the best I've ever heard; they are better than any full size speaker system I have ever heard."   He spoke of the richness of the SQ, the luscious mids (especially with female vocals by Diana Krall and Patricia Barber), the airy treble, and the deep bass extension that is so tight he could "hear the double bass player's fingers on the strings." He said he is going to sell his Stax system to buy the LCD2's.


----------



## Olias of Sunhillow

bluemonkeyflyer said:


> An audiophile friend with 40 years of experience with hifi headphones and room speaker systems came by for an audition, today.  Here's what he had to say:  "These headphones are the best I've ever heard; they are better than any full size speaker system I have ever heard."   He spoke of the richness of the SQ, the luscious mids (especially with female vocals by Diana Krall and Patricia Barber), the airy treble, and the deep bass extension that is so tight he could "hear the double bass player's fingers on the strings." He said he is going to sell his Stax system to buy the LCD2's.




I agree about the female vocals and LCD-2. I don't listen to either Diana Krall or Patricia Barber, but I can tell you that both Sandy Denny and Annie Haslam have never sounded better.


----------



## oopsydaisy

Hate to continue sidetracking this thread, but if you like Diana Krall's voice with the LCD-2s, give India Arie's Voyage to India a listen. Instruments, including her voice are crystal clear


----------



## Carlsan

Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Agreed, my lyr has made both my LCD-2 and my HE-6 sing. They both sound outstanding in their own way.


----------



## MacedonianHero

olias of sunhillow said:


> bluemonkeyflyer said:
> 
> 
> > An audiophile friend with 40 years of experience with hifi headphones and room speaker systems came by for an audition, today.  Here's what he had to say:  "These headphones are the best I've ever heard; they are better than any full size speaker system I have ever heard."   He spoke of the richness of the SQ, the luscious mids (especially with female vocals by Diana Krall and Patricia Barber), the airy treble, and the deep bass extension that is so tight he could "hear the double bass player's fingers on the strings." He said he is going to sell his Stax system to buy the LCD2's.
> ...




LoL, well I do listen to a lot of Diana Krall (I've got all of her CDs) and Patricia Barber (got a lot of her stuff) and they both do sound very, very good with my LCD-2s.


----------



## dannie01

Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


 Can't agree more, I love both Dianna Krall and Patricia Barber's music very much and they both really sing with my LCD-2, too.


----------



## chris.d.m.

Quote: 





dannie01 said:


> Can't agree more, I love both Dianna Krall and Patricia Barber's music very much and they both really sing with my LCD-2, too.


 

 Dudes....I strongly advise having a listen to Hope Sandoval & the warm inventions (bavarian fruitbread cd) through the LCD2 and a strong amp.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Got my LCD's yesterday BUT I'm having the floors in my home redone and the interior is being painted and everything is in boxes so the cans are just sitting in their lacquered box calling to me.  It's a unique type of torture to be sure.


----------



## jax

Quote: 





chris.d.m. said:


> Dudes....I strongly advise having a listen to Hope Sandoval & the warm inventions (bavarian fruitbread cd) through the LCD2 and a strong amp.


 

 I've given that album a try numerous times and just can't seem to warm up to it (no pun intended).  I much prefer her work with Mazzy Star.  If you like Sandoval you might enjoy Trespassers William - Anchor, their first, is their best IMO, but harder to find sometimes at a reasonable price.  I've not been fond of most recent effort, Having, but their first and second were just great.  Definitely check them out if you like Sandoval.  Also, of course, The Golden Palominos ("Pure" and "This is How it Feels" are my favorites), and solo efforts from Lori Carson should be right up your alley.
   
   
  PS  Sorry, not sure what's going on with the markup tags.
   
  Oh, and BTW, I don't really get the connection between Hope Sandoval and either Diana Krall or Patricia Barber, beyond all of them being female vocals - where were you drawing that connection?


----------



## chris.d.m.

Quote: 





jax said:


> I've given that album a try numerous times and just can't seem to warm up to it (no pun intended).  I much prefer her work with Mazzy Star.  If you like Sandoval you might enjoy Trespassers William - Anchor, their first, is their best IMO, but harder to find sometimes at a reasonable price.  I've not been fond of most recent effort, Having, but their first and second were just great.  Definitely check them out if you like Sandoval.  Also, of course, The Golden Palominos ("Pure" and "This is How it Feels" are my favorites), and solo efforts from Lori Carson should be right up your alley.
> 
> 
> PS  Sorry, not sure what's going on with the markup tags.
> ...


 

 I'll have to check out Trespassers William, never heard of it.
  I do like Lori Carson (saw a cool Golden Palominos show in a small LA club in the early 90's).
   
  The only connection I was implying is the "lush quality of the vocal sound" that I enjoyed listening to the other night. I guess the general analog richness of those recordings sounds great to me in the LCD2... But then so does Muddy Waters.  Point being, quality recordings really shine with quality HP's like the LCD2.
  Don't wanna de-rail the OT though.


----------



## dannie01

Quote: 





chris.d.m. said:


> Dudes....I strongly advise having a listen to Hope Sandoval & the warm inventions (bavarian fruitbread cd) through the LCD2 and a strong amp.


 


 Thanks Chris, I have never heard of it but will try in out from Ebay. Is it the one you mean?
   

   
  And I think either a 4 boards Beta22 or WA5LE should be strong enough for the LCD-2 but I still looking for someting strong. Read some reviews about T-amp said it really good for HE-6 and LCD-2, will look close on it.


----------



## chris.d.m.

Quote: 





dannie01 said:


> Thanks Chris, I have never heard of it but will try in out from Ebay. Is it the one you mean?
> 
> 
> 
> And I think either a 4 boards Beta22 or WA5LE should be strong enough for the LCD-2 but I still looking for someting strong. Read some reviews about T-amp said it really good for HE-6 and LCD-2, will look close on it.


 

 That's the one.  It's a slow record,  lot's of space echo / spring reverb guitar,  driven by Hope's ethereal and delicate voice and anchored with acoustic guitar.
  One might or might not like it but FWIW, I think it's pretty HP friendly.


----------



## Solude

Quote: 





dannie01 said:


> And I think either a 4 boards Beta22 or WA5LE should be strong enough for the LCD-2 but I still looking for someting strong. Read some reviews about T-amp said it really good for HE-6 and LCD-2, will look close on it.


 


       Logic not coming together on that one.  A 2 board B22 is stronger @18W than the WA5LE @1.5W and the T-Amp @6W.  The T-Amp is something of a classic in that it costs peanuts and sounds ok.  It does not however perform with even ~$300 headphone or speaker amps.  When talking B22 or WA5LE the low power SS amp that should be in that sentence is Firstwatt (pick your poison).  I know others disagree but my experience with the LCD-2 is quality trumps quantity.  My Burson(800mW) has the lowest power of the amps I owned with the LCD-2 and it stayed.  The B22 was also a great match but it wasn't the power, it was the quality in the design.  
   
  Put another way... on the Lyr you aren't amplifying voltage at all until 1 o'clock on the dial.  -20dB on the pot is the point where you stop attenuating and start amplifying voltage.  Up until that point you're actually outputting less voltage than your source is providing.  That voltage is what is put across the LCD-2 that results in current draw on the output stage.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





solude said:


> Logic not coming together on that one.  A 2 board B22 is stronger @18W than the WA5LE @1.5W and the T-Amp @6W.  The T-Amp is something of a classic in that it costs peanuts and sounds ok.  It does not however perform with even ~$300 headphone or speaker amps.  When talking B22 or WA5LE the low power SS amp that should be in that sentence is Firstwatt (pick your poison).  I know others disagree but my experience with the LCD-2 is quality trumps quantity.  My Burson(800mW) has the lowest power of the amps I owned with the LCD-2 and it stayed.  The B22 was also a great match but it wasn't the power, it was the quality in the design.  *Put another way... on the Lyr you aren't amplifying at all until 1 o'clock on the dial.  -20dB on the pot is the point where you stop attenuating and start amplifying.  Up until that point you're actually using less voltage than your source is providing.*


 

 You seem to have voltage and power confused.  They are not at all the same.


----------



## dannie01

I'm just making some silly gag, don't get me wrong. There are many more wonderful and expensive amps here in Head-Fi. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  
  Quote: 





solude said:


> Logic not coming together on that one.  A 2 board B22 is stronger @18W than the WA5LE @1.5W and the T-Amp @6W.  The T-Amp is something of a classic in that it costs peanuts and sounds ok.  It does not however perform with even ~$300 headphone or speaker amps.  When talking B22 or WA5LE the low power SS amp that should be in that sentence is Firstwatt (pick your poison).  I know others disagree but my experience with the LCD-2 is quality trumps quantity.  My Burson(800mW) has the lowest power of the amps I owned with the LCD-2 and it stayed.  The B22 was also a great match but it wasn't the power, it was the quality in the design.  Put another way... on the Lyr you aren't amplifying at all until 1 o'clock on the dial.  -20dB on the pot is the point where you stop attenuating and start amplifying.  Up until that point you're actually using less voltage than your source is providing.


----------



## Wedge

Well not only that, but the traditional amplifier design puts the pot at the input signal.  So technically you are attenuating the input signal and then amplifying it, so really you are always amplifying, not to give the impression that the first portions of your signal aren't affected by your amplifier chain that procedes the pot.


----------



## Solude

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> You seem to have voltage and power confused.  They are not at all the same.


 


  Not at all confused.  Power is a result of voltage across an impedance that results in current draw.  Its not possible in this world, to have X voltage across Y impedance without getting Z power draw.  Meaning the scale of voltage to power is fixed given a resistive load like the LCD-2.  Do you believe that the output voltage is higher than the input before you hit the -20dB mark on the pot?  Do you believe there will be a time where the LCD-2 draws 2V and doesn't draw 80mW?
   
  That said, read it again, I never mentioned power.  But I'll go edit it to be more clear.


----------



## Wedge

Quote: 





solude said:


> Do you believe there will be a time where the LCD-2 draws 2V and doesn't draw 80mW?


 
   
  Yes I do, because technically 80 mW isn't drawn, 40 mA is drawn.  Power is technically consumed, plus your treating impedance as directly replaceable with resistance.  Its true for a perfect single tone @ pick an F - Frequency, 2V though a flat perfect 50 Ohm impedance will consume 80 mW.  I would also say V - Volts, Z - Impedance, and P - Power, but really you meant I -  Current.  Just kidding.


----------



## MacedonianHero

If the Burson wasn't such a disaster with the T1s, I would seriously think of giving it a try. But that coupled with the fact that my LCD-2s have an incredibly full bodied sound with my Lyr, I shall stand pat with my current amps.


----------



## Vince325

Hello Skylab I ordered the Decware Mini Tori a few weeks ago and noticed you like the 12bh7 tubes in it. Which tubes are you using and would you recommend any others? I looked around and they dont seem to be as available as some do you have any recommended sources?  Thanks in advance


----------



## Solude

Quote: 





wedge said:


> Yes I do, because technically 80 mW isn't drawn, 40 mA is drawn.  Power is technically consumed, plus your treating impedance as directly replaceable with resistance.  Its true for a perfect single tone @ pick an F - Frequency, 2V though a flat perfect 50 Ohm impedance will consume 80 mW.  I would also say V - Volts, Z - Impedance, and P - Power, but really you meant I -  Current.  Just kidding.


 


  Anyway the point I'm trying to get through, unsuccessfully apparently, is that the LCD-2 doesn't require high power to sing.  One last comparison... the Concerto is higher power than the Lyr, the Lyr is pretty much universally preferred despite being lower power.  Not surprising though, given its essentially a Meta42 vs an Anthem INT2.  Now can we please get on with discussing amps and not spin our wheels nit picking over terminology when you know fully well what's being said


----------



## oqvist

Yes if you describe the Meta42 and Anthem INT2 analogue? I don´t know what either is .


----------



## Solude

Meta42 = opamp with buffer output like the Concerto
  Anthem INT2 = tube input stage with discrete output like the Lyr (this one is actually a fantastic speaker amp made by the former Sonic Frontiers/Parts Connexion)
   
  The Rudistor RP8 is another similar model but lower power, and more "audiophile" priced.  And no, its not competitive with the Lyr, see power resistors on the sinks, see Solude run.  Suffice to say if it wasn't Schiit, the Lyr wouldn't be $450.


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





vince325 said:


> Hello Skylab I ordered the Decware Mini Tori a few weeks ago and noticed you like the 12bh7 tubes in it. Which tubes are you using and would you recommend any others? I looked around and they dont seem to be as available as some do you have any recommended sources?  Thanks in advance


 

 I prefer the 12BH7 over the 12AU7, in circuits where it can be used.  It works very well in the Mini-Torri.  I'm using Tung-Sol black plates.  You can get 12BH7's from all the usual suspects - tubedepot, Radio Electric Supply, Antique Electronic, Supply, etc etc, but you may have to hunt around for Tung-Sols specifically, although the RCA and Sylvanias are also very nice tubes.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





solude said:


> Not at all confused.  Power is a result of voltage across an impedance that results in current draw.  Its not possible in this world, to have X voltage across Y impedance without getting Z power draw.  Meaning the scale of voltage to power is fixed given a resistive load like the LCD-2.  Do you believe that the output voltage is higher than the input before you hit the -20dB mark on the pot?  Do you believe there will be a time where the LCD-2 draws 2V and doesn't draw 80mW?
> 
> That said, read it again, I never mentioned power.  But I'll go edit it to be more clear.


 
  The point is that the source of "voltage" at your input would not have the current capacity to deliver the same voltage across the 50 ohm load of the LCD-2s.  An open circuit voltage is not at all the same as a voltage across the 50 ohm load.  So in all cases current is being amplified by the amplifier, even when your voltage across 50 ohms is less than the open circuit voltage of the input.  Power is what gets the work done.  Power is voltage times current.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





solude said:


> Anyway the point I'm trying to get through, unsuccessfully apparently, is that the LCD-2 doesn't require high power to sing.  One last comparison... the Concerto is higher power than the Lyr, the Lyr is pretty much universally preferred despite being lower power.  Not surprising though, given its essentially a Meta42 vs an Anthem INT2.  Now can we please get on with discussing amps and not spin our wheels nit picking over terminology when you know fully well what's being said


 

 The Concerto is higher power than the Lyr?  Sorry but that is seriously incorrect.  The Lyr is a high power amp made specifically to drive power hungry headphones, and there are very few amplifiers on the market as powerful as the Lyr.  
   
  If you're making another attempt at being silly, please stop because you are potentially confusing many people who don't know how absurd your statements are.


----------



## Wedge

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> If you're making another attempt at being silly, please stop because you are potentially confusing many people who don't know how absurd your statements are.


 

 Every once in a while I like to be silly though.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Quote: 





solude said:


> Anyway the point I'm trying to get through, unsuccessfully apparently, is that the LCD-2 doesn't require high power to sing.


 

 I don't think its unsuccessful at all.  Many people have said that it doesn't require a lot of power to sing, but what one of us calls a lot of power and another are 2 different things, as well.  I love my WA-22 for the LCD-2, I think that it is a better sounding amp than the Lyr with the LCD-2 (well tubed in both cases), but I don't get myself wound around the axles defending my amps.  I also won't deny that the Lyr is a damn good amp for the money and pairs well with the LCD-2.  But then again so does my Leben, and the K1K port of my WA-5.  My friend says he likes the sound of his Lyr better than my Leben, I don't get hurt over it.  Don't forget that some people prefer having a tube amp over SS, not even just for its own sound, just because theres some comfort that can be had in being able to change the sound if your mood changes.  With the Concerto, what you hear is what you get period, thats just a fact.  Music choice can often dictate your amp choice.  The Lyr as far as I can tell handles a broad range of musical tastes pretty well.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





wedge said:


> Every once in a while I like to be silly though.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Some people can't help being silly, even when they don't intend to be.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  I don't care what amp people prefer sound wise, but it is harmful to tell people that the Lyr is a low powered amp and I'm making no inference to SQ, good or bad, when I say this.
   
  People can easily damage their more sensitive headphones by doing stupid things with a high power amp like the Lyr, such as changing sources while the gain and headphones are left "hooked up."  A stupid move like this with any high powered amp will fry some headphones in a millisecond.


----------



## Wedge

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> I don't care what amp people prefer sound wise, but it is harmful to tell people that the Lyr is a low powered amp and I'm making no inference to SQ, good or bad, when I say this.
> 
> People can easily damage their more sensitive headphones by doing stupid things with a high power amp like the Lyr, such as changing sources while the gain and headphones are left "hooked up."  A stupid move like this with any high powered amp will fry some headphones in a millisecond.


 
   
  Agreed, on all accounts.  I give a strong vote of confidence in favor of the Lyr.  I found it to be so far that I have heard, the best value for the money amp for the LCD-2.  Even when equipped with obscenely priced Mullards, it is still the best value that I have heard, actually I think it has more value with these tubes, but I've been told that I am a tube snob.  My Peak/Volcano, is now waiting to be unboxed at home, nice little b-day gift to myself, haha.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





wedge said:


> Agreed, on all accounts.  I give a strong vote of confidence in favor of the Lyr.  I found it to be so far that I have heard, the best value for the money amp for the LCD-2.  Even when equipped with obscenely priced Mullards, it is still the best value that I have heard, actually I think it has more value with these tubes, but I've been told that I am a tube snob.  My Peak/Volcano, is now waiting to be unboxed at home, nice little b-day gift to myself, haha.


 
  Anxiously awaiting your thoughts and comments about the P/V when you get it set up and run in!


----------



## oopsydaisy

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> Anxiously awaiting your thoughts and comments about the P/V when you get it set up and run in!


 
   
  x2


----------



## USAudio

Quote:


wedge said:


> Agreed, on all accounts.  I give a strong vote of confidence in favor of the Lyr.  I found it to be so far that I have heard, the best value for the money amp for the LCD-2.  Even when equipped with obscenely priced Mullards, it is still the best value that I have heard, actually I think it has more value with these tubes, but I've been told that I am a tube snob.  My Peak/Volcano, is now waiting to be unboxed at home, nice little b-day gift to myself, haha.


 Ah, so a Lyr / Peak comparison with the LCD-2's is forthcoming???


----------



## oopsydaisy

For you fight fans, what's on the undercard?


----------



## Wedge

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *USAudio* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Ah, so a Lyr / Peak comparison with the LCD-2's is forthcoming???


 

 Well, maybe, but I would prefer to own one before I do a comparison.  I've been listening to my friends.  
   
  We could do this though.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   

   

   

   
  WA-22 is now tubed with Mullard ECC32, RCA Black Plate 5U4G, and Tung-Sol 5998, but I can't take a picture at work.


----------



## WobblyGoblin

Anyone got an experience of any littledot amps with an LCD-2?
   
  I'm thinking the MKIVSE as it's about the same price as the lyr.


----------



## Wedge

LiqTenExp has one a Little Dot amp.  He has used it with his LCD-2.


----------



## LiqTenExp

I have a LD MKIII tubed with 6H30PI Sovtek and NOS RCA 6AK5.  In its highest gain state it has no issues powering the LCD-2 above safe levels, doesn't mean it has as much power as some of the other amps out there into 50 ohms but I can't listen to it above 12 o'clock without worrying about my hearing, lol.  I think it sounds respectable but would need to A/B vs. another amp (like a Leben or Lyr) to tell you what I don't like about it.  I usually use it for my DT990-600 ohms.
   
  Maybe Wedge and I will do Leben/Peak/Lyr/LD show down sometime soon... We would pick a DAC like Wedge's Yulong or PSAudio and go down the line up.  We have some common ground on music tastes so thats good, and on the other hand we have some huge differences.  I think it would make for a good comparison.


----------



## Wedge

Well I got about an hour in on the Peak, and decided to give a listen.  The tube I am using has been run in already (Marconi Osram B65), so thats pretty much settled.  I always give a listen after about an hour just to see how things are going.  Amazing little amplifier.  I love the midrange of it.  Thats what kind of sticks out to me right now.  I'm listening to some Natalie Merchant songs, I personally think she has a beautiful voice.  Of course you know these are just very initial listening, so please don't jump to any conclusions.  I'm going to run the amp in more (for amps I generally put around 100 hours on it before I start really listening) and then try to get some serious listening time in.


----------



## LiqTenExp

need to rock some Liquid Tension Experiment on that bad boy!


----------



## WobblyGoblin

Quote: 





liqtenexp said:


> I have a LD MKIII tubed with 6H30PI Sovtek and NOS RCA 6AK5.  In its highest gain state it has no issues powering the LCD-2 above safe levels, doesn't mean it has as much power as some of the other amps out there into 50 ohms but I can't listen to it above 12 o'clock without worrying about my hearing, lol.  I think it sounds respectable but would need to A/B vs. another amp (like a Leben or Lyr) to tell you what I don't like about it.  I usually use it for my DT990-600 ohms.
> 
> Maybe Wedge and I will do Leben/Peak/Lyr/LD show down sometime soon... We would pick a DAC like Wedge's Yulong or PSAudio and go down the line up.  We have some common ground on music tastes so thats good, and on the other hand we have some huge differences.  I think it would make for a good comparison.


 
   
   
   That'd be great! Please do! If anyone has the MKIVSE to add to the mix that'd be nice too.


----------



## fra107

Hi guys, i'm using a Burson HA-160 with my LCD-2 and i would like to upgrade it to a better amp.

What amp you suggest me? (budget 1k $)

Thank you very much


----------



## yossi126

Look for a used beta22 or try to commission one. Otherwise stay with what you have.


----------



## fra107

fra107 said:


> Hi guys, i'm using a Burson HA-160 with my LCD-2 and i would like to upgrade it to a better amp.
> 
> What amp you suggest me? (budget 1k $)
> 
> Thank you very much






yossi126 said:


> Look for a used beta22 or try to commission one. Otherwise stay with what you have.




Well, it's really hard to find a beta 22 used for sale.......:mad:
Thanks


----------



## Permagrin

fra107 said:


> fra107 said:
> 
> 
> > Hi guys, i'm using a Burson HA-160 with my LCD-2 and i would like to upgrade it to a better amp.
> ...




It's sound advice though as you will be seeing maybe minimal gains at the $1k level.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





fra107 said:


> Hi guys, i'm using a Burson HA-160 with my LCD-2 and i would like to upgrade it to a better amp.
> 
> What amp you suggest me? (budget 1k $)
> 
> Thank you very much


 
  Have you considered the Schiit Lyr?


----------



## jax

Quote: 





permagrin said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

  
  Hmmm, I bought a used Beta22 built by Rockhopper, a few years back.  They do builds - at least they sell builds.  I have nothing to compare mine to, but it was a pretty good amp - I didn't like it enough to keep it more than a few months.  I didn't have LCD-2's at the time (HD800, HD650 and I think perhaps Grado HF-2's during that stint). 
   
  I haven't done the comparison myself, but you might also want to look into Violectric amps as a $1K option - There's a few reviews on the V200 including this one by Project86, who also reviewed the V181 here.  I believe he mentioned the Burson (not  positive).  Unfortunately he did not use LCD-2's for the reviews.  I can tell you that the V181 makes a great amp for the LCD-2's, but alas, I cannot tell you how it compares to a Burson.  I would add that the Apex Peak Volcano, at twice your budget, would also be outstanding with the LCD-2's and if you add more scratch to the kitty definitely put that on your short list and seek out some comparisons.  You could just get the Apex Peak to start out and get the Volcano power supply later - but I'd warn that the Volcano is a really critical part of that equation in my experience, and the stock power supply might not take the Burson to the matt - I'm pretty confident that with the power supply its a hard-to-beat combo, but again, no direct experience with  your amp to say for sure.  Same with the V181 - You can't go wrong with the Violectric combo - I just cant say whether it would be worth dropping your Burson for the swap.  Perhaps you can input from someone who's heard both.


----------



## Permagrin

Here's a Burson HA-160D/Violectric V200 comparison.


----------



## driftingbunnies

There probably isn't a huge jump between the concerto and V200 right? Do you guys think it would be better to wait for the balanced V282 or just get the V200 if I sell my concerto?


----------



## JIGF

Srajan updated the Lyr review. There are a few words on how Schiit and Burson work with Audez'e.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





jigf said:


> Srajan updated the Lyr review. There are a few words on how Schiit and Burson work with Audez'e.


 

 Nicely written review.


----------



## Permagrin

kwkarth said:


> Nicely written review.




Indeed, quite informative in fact. I was surprised by the favoring but now more content.


----------



## MacedonianHero

kwkarth said:


> Have you considered the Schiit Lyr?




x2. It is better than my $720 Concerto and $1400 WA2 (with upgraded tubes)....it really makes the LCD-2's shine and for less than $500.


----------



## MacedonianHero

permagrin said:


> kwkarth said:
> 
> 
> > Nicely written review.
> ...




x3 here. I think I'll have to try my HD800s again with my Lyr. Interesting comments about the Burson. If it wasn't such a disaster with the T1s, I might be tempted to give it a try.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  The Burson is a fine amp to be sure, but like everything else, it has limitations.  To my ears, the Burson always sounded two dimensional...  Not depth, no imaging except strictly left/right.  I only listened to a sample of one, so it may not have been a good example.


----------



## Permagrin

kwkarth said:


> The Burson is a fine amp to be sure, but like everything else, it has limitations.  To my ears, the Burson always sounded two dimensional...  Not depth, no imaging except strictly left/right.  I only listened to a sample of one, so it may not have been a good example.




No, that's spot on (according to my setup anyway). No depth, but width can be quite great, depending on the recording, and instrument separation is enough to compensate for the lack of depth for me anyway. As I've said before, with very congested music instruments seem to lose their magic but most of the music I listen to has very few passages like this. The factor that I think this setup wins with is that it can drive the LCD-2s properly to allow it to produce its trademark sound.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *MacedonianHero* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


 

 I seem to be in the minority, I had the Lyr in the exact same setup as my WA22 and much preferred the LCD-2 with the Woo (but I always use the 2-watt power tubes). It wasn't even that close to my ears. My experience with the Lyr was that the K701 has never sounded better but that was my best result with it. I really liked it as a preamp/tube buffer to my speakers as well.
   
  I lol'd when I saw that the 6moons reviewer tried his Ortofon IEMs with it and a 2-volt source like mine, I hope they survived!


----------



## Wedge

I like the Lyr, but I haven't spent too much time as I only get to listen to my friends.  I do like the WA-22 a great deal and in general I prefer it, I'm using the 5998 power tubes in it.  I think the Woo amps sound a little bit more lush than the Lyr does.  But I have about 20 hours on my Apex Peak/Volcano, and I must say for the LCD-2 I am enjoying this combination a good deal.  I'm sad that I have to go away this weekend and won't be able to run in the Peak some more.  I really want to hear this bad boy when it settles out.  So far though I think all the amps I own work great with the LCD-2, they just all sound a little bit different, its pretty much splitting hairs in one direction or another.


----------



## MacedonianHero

wedge said:


> I like the Lyr, but I haven't spent too much time as I only get to listen to my friends.  I do like the WA-22 a great deal and in general I prefer it, I'm using the 5998 power tubes in it.  I think the Woo amps sound a little bit more lush than the Lyr does.  But I have about 20 hours on my Apex Peak/Volcano, and I must say for the LCD-2 I am enjoying this combination a good deal.  I'm sad that I have to go away this weekend and won't be able to run in the Peak some more.  I really want to hear this bad boy when it settles out.  So far though I think all the amps I own work great with the LCD-2, they just all sound a little bit different, its pretty much splitting hairs in one direction or another.




Which tubes were in the Lyr? With the stock, yes, the Lyr is not Woo like in it's lushness (especially in the mid range).


----------



## Wedge

Mullard CV2492, I gave them to my friend for his birthday, after he bought the Lyr.
  
  Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> Which tubes were in the Lyr? With the stock, yes, the Lyr is not Woo like in it's lushness (especially in the mid range).


----------



## MacedonianHero

wedge said:


> Mullard CV2492, I gave them to my friend for his birthday, after he bought the Lyr.




Interesting...I'm using those tubes on my Lyr as well. It is not as tube like as my Woo amp, but it is a hybrid amp after all.


----------



## Permagrin

wedge said:


> I like the Lyr, but I haven't spent too much time as I only get to listen to my friends.  I do like the WA-22 a great deal and in general I prefer it, I'm using the 5998 power tubes in it.  I think the Woo amps sound a little bit more lush than the Lyr does.  *But I have about 20 hours on my Apex Peak/Volcano, and I must say for the LCD-2 I am enjoying this combination a good deal.  I'm sad that I have to go away this weekend and won't be able to run in the Peak some more.  I really want to hear this bad boy when it settles out. * So far though I think all the amps I own work great with the LCD-2, they just all sound a little bit different, its pretty much splitting hairs in one direction or another.




Can't you leave it on with phones so the amp burns in more?


----------



## Wedge

I think we are in agreement, although I would think the WA-2 is a different beast altogether when compared to the WA-22.  I don't own a WA-2, so I don't really know.
   
  Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> Interesting...I'm using those tubes on my Lyr as well. It is not as tube like as my Woo amp, but it is a hybrid amp after all.


----------



## Wedge

I don't like to leave things on when I'm not going to be home for a few days, especially tube amps.
  
  Quote: 





permagrin said:


> Can't you leave it on with phones so the amp burns in more?


----------



## Permagrin

wedge said:


> I don't like to leave things on when I'm not going to be home for a few days, especially tube amps.




Understood.


----------



## grokit

I was using the Lyr with NOS Amprex gold-pin 6922s.


----------



## USAudio

Quote:  





> I was using the Lyr with NOS Amprex gold-pin 6922s.


 How does the Lyr sound with the 6922s vs the stock tubes?


----------



## grokit

Sorry, I never tried the stock tubes.


----------



## fra107

Quote:


fra107 said:


> Hi guys, i'm using a Burson HA-160 with my LCD-2 and i would like to upgrade it to a better amp.
> 
> What amp you suggest me? (budget 1k $)
> 
> Thank you very much


  Quote:


kwkarth said:


> Have you considered the Schiit Lyr?


 

  Yes, i considered it...but now i have another possibility....
  Someone know this one?
http://www.zazenn-audio.com/Products_Beta22_Balanced.html
   
  This is the email i received from the builder....
   
   
  Quote: 





> Thank you for your interest in ZaZenn Beta22.
> The price for a SE Beta22 unit (3xBeta22 boards+1xSigma22 boards) (with 24 steps attenuator or alps blue velvet)
> would be 1200EUR+paypal fees+shipping (optional 41 steps attenuator +150EUR (the best choice)).
> The price for a fully balanced Beta22 unit (4xBeta22 boards+2xSigma22 boards) (with 24 steps attenuator or alps blue velvet)
> ...


 
   
  What you think?


----------



## Currawong

Is that company building the B22s with AMB's blessing and, most importantly, boards?


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





permagrin said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  I have to agree with you there.  The Burson drove the LCD-2s with authority.  Of course that was back in the days before many (amplifier) giants roamed the land.


----------



## El_Doug

the website's pictures show AMB's boards... whether or not the actual shipping units use them is a different matter
  
  Quote: 





currawong said:


> Is that company building the B22s with AMB's blessing and, most importantly, boards?


----------



## romik

Has anyone tried them through Fireface 400's headphone output? Any good?


----------



## romik

Would plugging them directly into Fireface 400 do any justice?


----------



## tme110

What's up with all these sellers not putting prices on items they are trying to sell?  Even if this was something I wanted more than anything else, I'd never email to ask for a price that should be on the site to begin with.
  
  Quote: 





> Yes, i considered it...but now i have another possibility....
> Someone know this one?
> http://www.zazenn-audio.com/Products_Beta22_Balanced.html
> 
> ...


----------



## Wedge

I'm just surprised how many places build Beta 22s.


----------



## driftingbunnies

Are there any reasonably priced builders in the US?


----------



## Wedge

Isn't this relative, plus the parts alone I hear run over $1000.00.  People have to make money, design and fabricate chassis.  I would say it could get pricey in a flash.
  
  Quote: 





driftingbunnies said:


> Are there any *reasonably* priced builders in the US?


----------



## driftingbunnies

Sure it's relative but there are companies like ibuypower and companies like Voodoo pc and alienware. I'm looking for an ibuypower builder. 
   
  Oh and if you research, you can get all the boards for a 3 channel one for about 450. I guess you can always spend 500+ on connectors and a case but that's not always necessary.


----------



## Wedge

Power supply too?  Magnetics for a power supply could run you around $200 or more.  I mean it could go either way, but if somebody is building it for you, they kind of have to make some sort of a profit.  Plus most people seem to build these things in something a bit nicer than a Bud Box.  Upgraded volume pots or stepped attenuators, etc.  1% Dale resistors, or 5-10% NTEs.  Caps can drive you nuts here too.  If they are caps in the signal chain you surely don't want to skimp on them.  I'm sure you can find parts at good prices.  I know I can get very good discounts from several major supply houses, but most people would have to buy them in bulk.  If you don't buy the matched set transistors from AMB, then you need to buy a bulk of them to match them yourself.  Anyways all these things kind of add up.


----------



## WarriorAnt

I find all the 22 stuff too confusing so I won't even consider buying one no matter how good it sounds.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





driftingbunnies said:


> Sure it's relative but there are companies like ibuypower and companies like Voodoo pc and alienware. I'm looking for an ibuypower builder.
> 
> Oh and if you research, you can get all the boards for a 3 channel one for about 450. I guess you can always spend 500+ on connectors and a case but that's not always necessary.


 
  A proper power supply can easily exceed the cost of all the other components in this case.  Then of course, there is the case to consider.


----------



## Wedge

I would say that the power supply is easily more important than the signal chain.  Ripple is ripple and no matter how good your amplifier signal chain is, it will still really suck with a PS with too much ripple, or unstable voltage rails, whatever the issue might be.
  
  Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> A proper power supply can easily exceed the cost of all the other components in this case.  Then of course, there is the case to consider.


----------



## USAudio

Quote:


wedge said:


> I would say that the power supply is easily more important than the signal chain.  Ripple is ripple and no matter how good your amplifier signal chain is, it will still really suck with a PS with too much ripple, or unstable voltage rails, whatever the issue might be.


 
  I guess this all bodes well for the Red Wine Audio design methodology of battery-power only: http://www.redwineaudio.com/products/lfpv-edition  ?


----------



## driftingbunnies

I am only pricing from glass jar audio. Obviously you can get "higher quality parts" but as long as the amp works as intended, then anything extra is just gravy. I mean just take any of the modded headphones like the thunderpants, LAX000, or headphile's beyers. They're basically one headphone with higher quality parts right? But by the time they become thunderpants or LAX000, they're basically a different set of headphone. I'm just saying that if you really want to build your own, you can definitely get below 1k. 
   
  I guess my definition is reasonable is that the builder will build according to whether or not I approve of the increase if they wanted to use a higher quality part. And if he did decide to use it, he won't charge me 150% of how much he can get the part for. I understand it's a lot of work, but the person building was not the developer so it's hard to justify where that extra 50% might come from.


----------



## MHinGA

Quote: 





usaudio said:


> Quote:
> I guess this all bodes well for the Red Wine Audio design methodology of battery-power only: http://www.redwineaudio.com/products/lfpv-edition  ?


 

 I was just thinking that as well. I'm going to have a chance to hear my LCD2 w/ a RWA HPA LFP-V next week and I'm really looking forward to that.


----------



## Wedge

Battery power is just one way to solve the problem, but has its own limitations as well.  What you will find is that high end amplifiers have beefier power supplies than lower end solutions.  Power supply discussions can become endless, but IMO battery is not the end all solution either, however I have only briefly heard the Isabellina HPA LFP-V Balanced designed for orthodynamics, and as I have said before 20 minutes at a meet is no way for me to judge a product, others are more comfortable with making this judgement than I am.  I'll give an example of a very similarly priced amplifier that uses 110VAC, that sounds great, I've got about 25 hours on it, and I love it, the Apex Peak/Volcano, it might be my favorite headphone only amplifier.  I love the Leben CS300XS, I feel so far that the Leben is the more neutral amplifier, definitely compared to both of my Woos, which are more on the lush (I will often call it romantic sounding, as in, if you like it you will tend to fall in love with it immediately).  I'm still trying to figure out where I put the Apex Peak/Volcano in the mix, but I definitely think its up there.  So for each of these amplifiers, none of them are battery powered, but they are all really great sounding, and they all have different power supply implementations.  
   
  edit:  I do want to make a clarification though, the power supply generally has less to do with the sound characteristic than the signal chain, however a great amp needs to start with a great power supply is my point.  So before anyone goes nuts on me regarding my comments, understand that I do feel signal chain is important, I have just seen some really crappy power supplies and find that it can be the separation from a crappy amp and a really great amp.
  
  Quote: 





usaudio said:


> Quote:
> I guess this all bodes well for the Red Wine Audio design methodology of battery-power only: http://www.redwineaudio.com/products/lfpv-edition  ?


----------



## USAudio

Quote: 





mhinga said:


> I was just thinking that as well. I'm going to have a chance to hear my LCD2 w/ a RWA HPA LFP-V next week and I'm really looking forward to that.


 I understand they also have a balanced headphone amp in the works.


----------



## kwkarth

As Wedge says, the power supply can make or break a top notch amplifier.  Off grid battery power is a solution to some of the problems of good power supply design and Vinnie's approach is born out in the performance of his products.  Once we leave the realm of pre-amps, DACs, and headphone amps, though, the practicality of battery power begins to wane.  There are many other factors to consider for a good power supply as well, besides ripple, so there is more to Vinnie's power supply than just the battery aspect.
   
  Not to get too wrapped around the axle about power supplies, just consider this...
   
  There is not one single amplifier of high regard on the market that does not have a well thought out power supply.  The better the amp, the better the power supply.  After all, an amplifier is nothing more than a sophisticated, modulated power supply.


----------



## SHAHZADA123

I am torn between the Schiit Lyr & Decware Taboo for my LCD-2s.
   
  There is a significant price difference between the two amps and therefore the Lyr in all probability should offer more value for money but I'd like to get some advice as to which one is the better amp for the LCD-2s regardless of the value/money ratio.
   
   
  TIA


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> There is not one single amplifier of high regard on the market that does not have a well thought out power supply.  The better the amp, the better the power supply.  After all, an amplifier is nothing more than a sophisticated, modulated power supply.


 


  This why I've always given my speaker rig power amps a dedicated 20 amp line with an isolated ground.  Don't want those beautiful power supplies to want for current and wane from thirst.


----------



## Loevhagen

Any LCD-2 owners that use the Violectric V200? I find the combination quite seductive. The synergy is good and the combination does not portray the music "ALL THE DETAILS, ALL THE TIME". I like it.


----------



## monoethylene

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> The better the amp, the better the power supply.


 
  Is it proofed or your opinion?


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





loevhagen said:


> Any LCD-2 owners that use the Violectric V200? I find the combination quite seductive. The synergy is good and the combination does not portray the music "ALL THE DETAILS, ALL THE TIME". I like it.


 

 I don't know what you mean by the combination does not portray the music "ALL THE DETAILS, ALL THE TIME" but the violectric V200 is the solid state amp I'm slated to buy as soon as my wife stops with the new tile and bamboo flooring, and new interior painting and new shades and window dressings...I need an amp soon!


----------



## grokit

>


----------



## Loevhagen

Let´s say that the K702 + BCL is "ATD, ATT". The V200 + LCD-2 isn´t in the same "league".
   
  Context: In the very beginning, it is easy (and understandable) that people new to head-fi gets fascinated by hearing every microscopic thing in a recording. I thought the same some years ago. But, now I´m more fascinated if a combination portrays the music in a more ... let´s say ... analogue fashion. 
   
  It´s the same thing for stereo / speakers. Many years ago, every upgrade was done in order to listen to that next tiny detail in the recording. After some years, I settled with Klipsch RF-63 and Electrocompaniet / Abrahamsen. And, for those familiar to Electrocompaniet, they know that even though the amplifier present the details in the recording, the strength is how the music is portrayed to the listener.
   
  I´m getting partly associations to  Electrocompaniet when I put the LCD-2 on the scull and crank up the volume on my V200.


----------



## Loevhagen

A bit more context.
   
  During some years now, I´ve had many speakers in different price intervals. E.g. Audiovector Super, Signature and Avantgarde, Dynaudio Confidence C1, Dynaudio Focus 140, Klipsch RF-62 and RF-63.
   
  DACs and pre/power and integrated amplifiers have been (too) many. E.g. ampifiers Lyngdorf TDAI 2200 RP A/D, Electrocomapniet ECI-5 mkII, Copland CTA-405, Primare I32 / A30.2 / A30.5 / SPA21, Abrahamsen V2.0 / V3.0 / V4.0, Hegel H200 and a bunch of others.
   
  What have I learnt? I´ve learnt that even though it is fascinating to listen to every "0 and 1" on a CD, it is a bit boring in the long run. Therefore, I´ve settled with RF-63 (being quite transparent) and 3 amplifiers (Copland; tube, Primare I32;natural and Abrahamsen; colored/warm).
   
  My best listening session have been with the tubeamplifer and the warm / colored Abrahamsen / Electrocomapniet.
   
  V200 as a headphone amplifier gives me partly deja vu to the integrated amps I´ve like the best. HD800 is transparent and can be construed to be a RF-63 "on the head". The LCD-2 is more of a Focus 140 / Vienna Acoustics. The K701/2 is the Audiovector Avantgarde with the Heil teeter.
   
  Others may interpret these components differently.
   
  If I would be utterly picky, I wish the V200 had a bit of the Burson HA-160D magic; a soft coloring of the sound / decay.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





monoethylene said:


> Is it proofed or your opinion?


 
  It is common knowledge and common sense, not just my opinion.  Find an amplifier designer / manufacturer that disagrees.


----------



## chris.d.m.

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> This why I've always given my speaker rig power amps a dedicated 20 amp line with an isolated ground.  Don't want those beautiful power supplies to want for current and wane from thirst.


 

  
  Good practice IMO.


----------



## WarriorAnt

kwkarth,
   
  You said "The better the amp, the better the power supply. "   Perhaps you should have said  The better the power supply the better the amp"


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> kwkarth,
> 
> You said "The better the amp, the better the power supply. "   Perhaps you should have said  The better the power supply the better the amp"


 
  I can buy that!!


----------



## zzffnn

Driving my se LCD-2s with AMB M3s for now, would like to know more synergetic amps in $500 range. The Beta22 and EHHA are there, of course.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





zzffnn said:


> Driving my se LCD-2s with AMB M3s for now, would like to know more synergetic amps in $500 range. The Beta22 and EHHA are there, of course.


 

 The Lyr.


----------



## Wedge

kwkarth, I have posted some of my thoughts and comments.  http://www.head-fi.org/products/apex-high-fi-audio-peak-and-volcano/reviews/5062
   
  Short summary:  I absolutely love the sound of the Peak/Volcano with the LCD-2 and might actually prefer it to the Leben.  I still like the Leben better but mostly because it is a speaker amp too.  I have never been a big source guy, but the P/V has inspired me to upgrade so I bought a MHDT Balanced Havana DAC (on your recommendation) from 32 Ohm, as I wanted to give your good friend some business.  In any event, anyone looking for an amp in the $2K ish price range, this should definitely be on the list of amps to consider (IMHO).
   
  Cheers 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> Anxiously awaiting your thoughts and comments about the P/V when you get it set up and run in!


----------



## jeust0999

Does anyone have any experience with a kicas caliente and a pair of audez'e?
   
  I really love the *smoothness* and *transparency* of this amp. It should have enough current to drive the LCD2's right?
   
   
   
  My next amp will be an OTL. I don't think I will be purchasing a transformer-coupled tube amp, either. I really want to keep the kicas, especially since it is no longer in production. I remember Oriel, from Purity Audio, telling me to think twice before selling it since it would be the last silver amp produced.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





jeust0999 said:


> Does anyone have any experience with a kicas caliente and a pair of audez'e?
> 
> I really love the *smoothness* and *transparency* of this amp. It should have enough current to drive the LCD2's right?
> 
> My next amp will be an OTL. I don't think I will be purchasing a transformer-coupled tube amp, either. I really want to keep the kicas, especially since it is no longer in production. I remember Oriel, from Purity Audio, telling me to think twice before selling it since it would be the last silver amp produced.


 
  I was going to remind myself of the specs and this is what I found:


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





jeust0999 said:


> Does anyone have any experience with a kicas caliente and a pair of audez'e?
> I really love the *smoothness* and *transparency* of this amp. It should have enough current to drive the LCD2's right?
> 
> My next amp will be an OTL. I don't think I will be purchasing a transformer-coupled tube amp, either. I really want to keep the kicas, especially since it is no longer in production. I remember Oriel, from Purity Audio, telling me to think twice before selling it since it would be the last silver amp produced.


 
  I would predict the kicas will* NOT *do well with the LCD-2 based upon the specs:
   
   

  Frequency bandwidth: 10 Hz -- 50 kHz
*Maximum output: 400 mW*
 Input impedance: 10 kohm
*Gain: 6 dB (non-adjustable)*
 Dimensions: 17 x 16.5 x 5 cm (width x depth x height)
 Weight: 1 kg


----------



## jeust0999

I figured...
   
  Oh well, I'll keep researching to see how I plan for my next amp purchase.
   
  Regardless, I'm going to order the audez'e maybe next month or so.
   
  Thanks for your input, man.


----------



## brasewel

Alright guys I just jumped on the LCD-2 bandwagon. Got a good deal on a used pair. I will running be them SE through my RSA Apache and I plan to get them recabled and balanced shortly. Quick question: I know they are low impedance phones, however do I run them on low or medium gain since they require a fair amount of juice to power them.


----------



## Wedge

Gain is independent of power, the choice is yours depending on where you like your volume dial to be.  The amp will only put out what it is capable of putting out.
  
  Quote: 





brasewel said:


> Alright guys I just jumped on the LCD-2 bandwagon. Got a good deal on a used pair. I will running be them SE through my RSA Apache and I plan to get them recabled and balanced shortly. Quick question: I know they are low impedance phones, however do I run them on low or medium gain since they require a fair amount of juice to power them.


----------



## brasewel

I prefer to be able to have greater use of the potentiometer. I hate huge increases in volume with just a single step. I guess low gain should do it then.


----------



## USAudio

Quote: 





brasewel said:


> Alright guys I just jumped on the LCD-2 bandwagon. Got a good deal on a used pair. I will running be them SE through my RSA Apache and I plan to get them recabled and balanced shortly. Quick question: I know they are low impedance phones, however do I run them on low or medium gain since they require a fair amount of juice to power them.


 
  Please let us know how they sound single-ended vs. balanced after you get your balanced cable.


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





usaudio said:


> Please let us know how they sound single-ended vs. balanced after you get your balanced cable.


 

 Well I did get to hear them SE vs Balanced at a meet yesterday as well as stock vs aftermarket cable but my listening time on the SE version was too short to come to conclusions. Recabling them makes a significant difference in SQ IMO. The music seems dead in comparison on the stock cables. Bass definition and speed improves, mids are fuller with more attack. It's basically a no-brainer to recable them. The Norse Audio cables are fantastic and sounded unbelievable on the LCD-2 when paired with my amp. I will post my impressions once I get these babies.


----------



## grokit

The difference when balancing the LCD-2 is more due to the amplifier in question than how the headphone reacts to having a balanced cable attached to it. In many if not most balanced amps the difference in sound quality between the balanced and SE outputs can be quite dramatic, especially when using a balanced source. And the LCD-2 is more than capable of revealing this difference, just like it is with a jump in source or recording quality.


----------



## kwkarth

Is there anybody on this forum that thinks that there is any balanced amp that is capable of being used in single ended mode that sounds better than or even as good in single ended mode as it does in balanced mode?  Common, use a little common sense!  If you go to the trouble and expense of getting a balanced amp, why waste time trying to use it with one arm tied behind its back?


----------



## Wedge

I use my WA-22 with the 1/4" TRS ouput.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  I do however use it with balanced inputs.
  
  Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> Is there anybody on this forum that thinks that there is any balanced amp that is capable of being used in single ended mode that sounds better than or even as good in single ended mode as it does in balanced mode?  Common, use a little common sense!  If you go to the trouble and expense of getting a balanced amp, why waste time trying to use it with one arm tied behind its back?


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





wedge said:


> I use my WA-22 with the 1/4" TRS ouput.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Same here. I occasionally use the SE output but it is always fed by balanced inputs.


----------



## DeadEars

Quote: 





brasewel said:


> Alright guys I just jumped on the LCD-2 bandwagon. Got a good deal on a used pair. I will running be them SE through my RSA Apache and I plan to get them recabled and balanced shortly. Quick question: I know they are low impedance phones, however do I run them on low or medium gain since they require a fair amount of juice to power them.


 

 So the meet pushed you over the edge?   I thought your setup sounded great with Lee's LCD-2's.  Is that what did it for you?
   
  Congratulations, and may the upgrade bug never bite you again...  The meet caused me to go out and buy upgrade headphone cables.  Does it ever end?


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





deadears said:


> So the meet pushed you over the edge?   I thought your setup sounded great with Lee's LCD-2's.  Is that what did it for you?
> 
> Congratulations, and may the upgrade bug never bite you again...  The meet caused me to go out and buy upgrade headphone cables.  Does it ever end?


 

 Hi Frank. Yes Lee's LCD-2s sounded absolutely incredible on my setup. I don't think I am going to upgrade any further for a while. Did you get the Norse Audio Cables for your headphone? If so, any idea on pricing? I thought the LCD-2 sounded amazing through your rig as well. Loved the warm, tube-like sound through them.


----------



## ninjikiran

The 8w Norse Cable is $150
  
  Quote: 





brasewel said:


> Hi Frank. Yes Lee's LCD-2s sounded absolutely incredible on my setup. I don't think I am going to upgrade any further for a while. Did you get the Norse Audio Cables for your headphone? If so, any idea on pricing? I thought the LCD-2 sounded amazing through your rig as well. Loved the warm, tube-like sound through them.


----------



## DeadEars

Quote: 





brasewel said:


> Hi Frank. Yes Lee's LCD-2s sounded absolutely incredible on my setup. I don't think I am going to upgrade any further for a while. Did you get the Norse Audio Cables for your headphone? If so, any idea on pricing? I thought the LCD-2 sounded amazing through your rig as well. Loved the warm, tube-like sound through them.


 
   
  Yes, I listened to Lee's cans on your rig too and was very impressed.  Also liked Howard's music!!  I think you made a good choice. 
   
  I'm buying a set of Steve Eddy's "Q" headphone cables (2M for $230).  I really like the flexibility better than the Norse, and the sound is comparable (according to report).  I'll let you know what I think of them.  I have worked with Litz wire before and it is truly a pain to solder.  I had considered other DIY solutions, but I've got too many other projects on my bench, so it would be months before I got to it.  This way I can listen to great music while smelling the solder fumes as I rip into another old vintage amp.
   
  I was a bit disappointed in the sound I got at the meet.  The Touch is not too bad, but my usual source is a Modwright Transporter that is so much better-sounding, especially in the highs and lows.  I was surprised that the DAC in the Touch sounded better than the DAC in the Behringer.  I went back and forths a few times and gave up on the Behringer.  Also I was picking up some kind of electrical buzzing at the meet.  I had wanted to bring one of my vintage amps to show it off as a headphone amp, but I couldn't fit it in my Nissan 370Z and still have room for Paul's stuff too.  Next meet you can hear my new headphone cables!
   
  best,
   
  Frank


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





ninjikiran said:


> The 8w Norse Cable is $150


 

 8W as in 8 conductor right? That price is for what length of cable?
   


  Quote: 





deadears said:


> Yes, I listened to Lee's cans on your rig too and was very impressed.  Also liked Howard's music!!  I think you made a good choice.
> 
> I'm buying a set of Steve Eddy's "Q" headphone cables (2M for $230).  I really like the flexibility better than the Norse, and the sound is comparable (according to report).  I'll let you know what I think of them.  I have worked with Litz wire before and it is truly a pain to solder.  I had considered other DIY solutions, but I've got too many other projects on my bench, so it would be months before I got to it.  This way I can listen to great music while smelling the solder fumes as I rip into another old vintage amp.
> 
> ...


 

 Damm, had I known that was your 370z outside I would have asked you to take me for a ride. I'm planning to get either a used 350z or 370z. Did you figure out what was causing the buzz?


----------



## DeadEars

Quote: 





brasewel said:


> Damm, had I known that was your 370z outside I would have asked you to take me for a ride. I'm planning to get either a used 350z or 370z. Did you figure out what was causing the buzz?


 

 No, the buzz was gone when I set up back in my home office.  But I'm pretty sure it was caused by the Behringer, or something else that was plugged into the same outlet.  Back on topic, somewhat:  the Mapletree Audio Ear Super doesn't reject AC noise very effectively.  It responds well to clean AC.  I have a dedicated AC line at home, and fairly clean power (looking at it via an oscilloscope).  I would not recommend the MAD amp in a noisy power situation.
   
  You'd have been welcome to ride in the Z.  I'm not sure that Paul appreciated it so much as a rider (he doesn't have a drivers license or a car).  I'm sure he was happy to get out after a couple of hours of my driving!


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





brasewel said:


> Same here. I occasionally use the SE output but it is always fed by balanced inputs.


 

 OK, so the WA-22 is an exception because of its design, you are getting full benefit of the amp even when you use the TRS jack, but that's not very common.  My SAC-K1000 amp is the same way.  I just put the negative signal outputs together for TRS output.
   
  The point of my previous post was that some people here seem to be expecting or looking to see if the SE output from an inherently balanced amp design might potentially be better than the balanced output.  Like they're using that approach to try and determine if balanced really is better than SE design or not.  It is a completely bogus approach to trying to answer the question which is obvious to many of us who twiddle electrons for a living, but not so obvious to others because of all the misinformation, mythology, and bogosity perpetrated on the web.


----------



## ninjikiran

Standard 6ft
   
  I think the url is norseaudio.com


----------



## brasewel

Their webpage is pretty much just their email address on the front page. Anyway I have emailed them about their pricing structure and possibly getting a 6ft balanced cable.


----------



## Wedge

Agreed, people are welcome to compare their balanced amps against my SE amps.  I even have the same cable terminated in both balanced and 1/4" TRS connectors, from Steve Eddy.  I'm not saying which is better, but I think all you can do is compare the best that SE has to offer against the best that balanced has to offer.
  
  Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> OK, so the WA-22 is an exception because of its design, you are getting full benefit of the amp even when you use the TRS jack, but that's not very common.  My SAC-K1000 amp is the same way.  I just put the negative signal outputs together for TRS output.
> 
> The point of my previous post was that some people here seem to be expecting or looking to see if the SE output from an inherently balanced amp design might potentially be better than the balanced output.  Like they're using that approach to try and determine if balanced really is better than SE design or not.  It is a completely bogus approach to trying to answer the question which is obvious to many of us who twiddle electrons for a living, but not so obvious to others because of all the misinformation, mythology, and bogosity perpetrated on the web.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





wedge said:


> Agreed, people are welcome to compare their balanced amps against my SE amps.  I even have the same cable terminated in both balanced and 1/4" TRS connectors, from Steve Eddy.  I'm not saying which is better, but I think all you can do is compare the best that SE has to offer against the best that balanced has to offer.


 

 Yup, QFT.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> bogosity


----------



## DeadEars

Yeah, I liked "bogosity" too.  Along with "unvestment" a typo describing head-fi spending.  See what you learn hanging out here?


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





deadears said:


> Yeah, I liked "bogosity" too.  Along with "unvestment" a typo describing head-fi spending.  See what you learn hanging out here?


 


  I missed the unvestment reference...  Good one!!  My lexicon is constantly expanding with all the bogotistic excreations being broadcast about by marketeering departments everywhere.


----------



## clowkoy

Does anybody know the power output of Zen Taboo across LCD-2?
Thanks.


----------



## WarriorAnt

I forgot who is using the Dewares "The Zen Taboo" with LCD's?


----------



## tangsta

Sorry to diverge from the discussion a bit, but what are your top choices for an amp with the LCD-2's for $1k-$2k?


----------



## Wedge

At slightly above $2K, for me Apex Peak/Volcano and Woo Audio WA-22.


----------



## SHAHZADA123

I tried this combination and the LCD-2 sounds mindblowing
  Olive 6HD Music Server>Cambridge C840 DAC>NuForec ICON HDP(PreAmp)>Schiit Valhalla>LCD-2>
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  this combo sounds better than WooWA22 with stock tubes


----------



## Equus

Quote: 





wedge said:


> At slightly above $2K, for me Apex Peak/Volcano and Woo Audio WA-22.


 


  Haven't heard the WA-22 with LCD-2's yet (strangely enough).  I can second the Apex Peak/Volcano recommendation if you like clarity and imaging.  Personally, I'm partial to the Stacker II.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  I've also liked what I heard of jax's V181.  In my limited listening to it, it sounded more "organic" that the Peak/Volcano, though the latter wins the imaging contest.


----------



## jeust0999

Can the CSP2+, being an OTL, be damaged in any way from the load put on from the LCD2's?
   
  I know the wa6 can be recommended, but may actually be only *sufficiently* powerful. Trying to compromise for T1/LCD2..


----------



## Wedge

I think as with all tube amps the tubes can make a huge difference, in the "organic" areas.  If you used new production tubes only, than you can certainly have some improvement by trying some very good NOS tubes out, this amp will show you differences in tube selection.
  
  Quote: 





equus said:


> Haven't heard the WA-22 with LCD-2's yet (strangely enough).  I can second the Apex Peak/Volcano recommendation if you like clarity and imaging.  Personally, I'm partial to the Stacker II.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





shahzada123 said:


> I tried this combination and the LCD-2 sounds mindblowing
> Olive 6HD Music Server>Cambridge C840 DAC>NuForec ICON HDP(PreAmp)>Schiit Valhalla>LCD-2>
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Interesting, I take it that the ICON is needed to pump up the input gain to the Valhalla. Otherwise it wouldn't have the headroom needed to drive the LCD-2 properly straight out of the C840, is that correct?
   
   
  Quote: 





wedge said:


> I think as with all tube amps the tubes can make a huge difference, in the "organic" areas.  If you used new production tubes only, than you can certainly have some improvement by trying some very good NOS tubes out, this amp will show you differences in tube selection.


 

 Very good point Wedge.


----------



## tangsta

Ah, will look into that. Is it worth spending an extra grand to get a Cavalli Liquid Fire?


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





tangsta said:


> Ah, will look into that. Is it worth spending an extra grand to get a Cavalli Liquid Fire?


 

 Absolutely yes!!!


----------



## KingStyles

Quote: 





> Ah, will look into that. Is it worth spending an extra grand to get a Cavalli Liquid Fire?


 
  Only if you have a source that can allow the LF to utilize  its better clarity and such. An amp can only be as good as the info it recieves from the dac. Basically if you are using a ipod into your amp then no. If you have a nice dac that the schiit amp could be holding back its potential then yes. Where that crossover happens is up to your ears.


----------



## SHAHZADA123

Quote: 





grokit said:


> Interesting, I take it that the ICON is needed to pump up the input gain to the Valhalla. Otherwise it wouldn't have the headroom needed to drive the LCD-2 properly straight out of the C840, is that correct?


 

 Absolutely, and its made me realise that a mix and match setup CAN deliver the goods in a cost effective mannar.


----------



## Equus

Quote: 





wedge said:


> I think as with all tube amps the tubes can make a huge difference, in the "organic" areas.  If you used new production tubes only, than you can certainly have some improvement by trying some very good NOS tubes out, this amp will show you differences in tube selection.


 

 True enough, but without massive changes there is a certain signature that an amp will have.  I'm not saying the Peak/Volcano is "sterile" and totally not "organic", but it wasn't the amp's forte, IMO.  Granted, this is totally subjective and I only rolled about 4 or 5 different new and old production tubes through.
   


  Quote: 





tangsta said:


> Ah, will look into that. Is it worth spending an extra grand to get a Cavalli Liquid Fire?


 


 Ditto to kingstyles' comment, and also keep in mind that different people like different sound signatures.  Go figure.  It's a subjective hobby, so whether it's worth it or not is going to depend on what you like.  You ears and your brain are the best judge of what's worth it, not the word of someone communicating through cyberspace from half a world away.     Err...or in our case, up the Pacific coast.
   
  I always personally find that it's important to get a feel for the aesthetic of the people you're getting feedback from, since we all hear things differently.  Granted, they may not like the same things I do, but at least I try to see if I can find some sort of common vocabulary and base of reference.


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





kingstyles said:


> Only if you have a source that can allow the LF to utilize  its better clarity and such. An amp can only be as good as the info it recieves from the dac. Basically if you are using a ipod into your amp then no. If you have a nice dac that the schiit amp could be holding back its potential then yes. Where that crossover happens is up to your ears.


 

 Obviously spending nearly $3k on an amp and then using an ipod as a source is stupid, something I don't think he was planning on doing.
  Most dacs above $500 should pair very well with the Liquid Fire


----------



## KingStyles

Quote: 





> Obviously spending nearly $3k on an amp and then using an ipod as a source is stupid, something I don't think he was planning on doing.


 
  I have seen it done. There is nothing in his signature/profile so I assume nothing. Just throwing it out there. Basically all I was trying to say is if you feel the amp is holding your dac back then it may be worth the upgrade. If they are pretty much on par, then it might not. He may need to upgrade his dac in order to first get everything out of the schiit amp. Who knows, he would have to let us know what the "rest" of his setup is.


----------



## grokit

I would dearly love to hear the LCD-2 out of the Liquid Fire. From the impressions that I have read there is no better _sane and easily-obtainable_ amp for the LCD-2, regardless of the source being used.
   
  post edited, thanks Equus


----------



## Equus

While I love the Liquid Fire from my time with the pre-production version, and I am probably one of the first two people to put my name down for preorder, I personally think there are amps that do certain things better than the Liquid Fire.  I think the Stacker II is more emotionally involving, while kingstyles' Balancing Act has some strong points as well.  Granted, the Stacker II is not really easily obtained and kingstyles' rig is crazy.  The other caveat, of course, is that the impressions I have, and most folks in this neck of the woods have, is based on the pre-prod amp with pretty cheap tubes.


----------



## KingStyles

Quote: 





> I would dearly love to hear the LCD-2 out of the Liquid Fire. From the impressions that I have read there is no better amp for the LCD-2, regardless of the source being used.


 
  At that price range it is personal preference on what you consider important. At the last meet, we had both the LF and the BA hooked up to my front end for comparisons. There wasnt a consensus either way of which was the better. Some said the LF and some said the BA. That was the preproduction LF with stock tubes so I would love to do the comparison again with a production model.


----------



## Equus

Quote:  





> .... That was the preproduction LF with stock tubes so I would love to do the comparison again with a production model.


 

 Maybe next Seattle meet.  The release is a little delayed, but I have mine pre-ordered so keep your fingers crossed.


----------



## KingStyles

Mini Meet


----------



## Equus

Haha...I'd be down for that.  By then I should also have a new pair of interconnects to try and a DACmini.


----------



## sachu

Ethan..you try those interconnects out yet?


----------



## Equus

Just got them at my door yesterday, but was out most of last night so haven't had a chance to listen too much to them or burn them in.  Also got the Oyaide receptacle before the weekend, so that's been settling.  I should have some time to listen to them with the Stacker tonight.  I may also have an overnight loaner Rega DAC sometime soon.


----------



## Dangalf

Hi all,
  I'm looking to get a headphone setup from scratch. I'm considering the Audeze LCD-2 but am not sure what headphone amp/dac to get. I have a budget of around £500/$800 for the dac/amp. I listen to a variety of music but my favourite is singer-songwriter (e.g. Nick Drake, Tim/Jeff Buckley, Tori Amos etc).
  Would the Firestone Audio Fubar 4+ with power supply be a good option? 
  Do you have any other recommendations that fit my budget?
  Please keep in mind that I am in England so certain amps/dacs may need to be imported - such as the Schiit Lyr (and therefore auditioning would be difficult)
   
  Thanks guys!


----------



## elnero

Quote: 





dangalf said:


> Hi all,
> I'm looking to get a headphone setup from scratch. I'm considering the Audeze LCD-2 but am not sure what headphone amp/dac to get. I have a budget of around £500/$800 for the dac/amp. I listen to a variety of music but my favourite is singer-songwriter (e.g. Nick Drake, Tim/Jeff Buckley, Tori Amos etc).
> Would the Firestone Audio Fubar 4+ with power supply be a good option?
> Do you have any other recommendations that fit my budget?
> ...


 

 CEntrance DACmini.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





elnero said:


> CEntrance DACmini.


 
  x2


----------



## Dangalf

Thanks elnero
  I assume you're very happy with your setup then 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  How would you describe the sound and which genre(s) of music excels on your set-up/do you love listening to?
  Does anyone agree/disagree with elnero or have any other suggestions?
   
  Thanks again


----------



## Dangalf

thanks kwkarth - another vote for the dacmini then


----------



## Equus

I should have a DACmini sometime in the next week or two or something, depending on when they can ship it out to me.  I can comment a little on it then.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





equus said:


> I should have a DACmini sometime in the next week or two or something, depending on when they can ship it out to me.  I can comment a little on it then.


 
   
  I'm looking forward to reading your comments!


----------



## elnero

Quote: 





dangalf said:


> Thanks elnero
> I assume you're very happy with your setup then
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I've had the DACmini now for almost 2 weeks, unfortunately it's been a hectic couple of weeks so I haven't had much time to formulate any concrete opinions but yes, so far I'm quite pleased with how the DACmini pairs with the LCD-2's. I'm trying to put together some impressions that I'll post in the DACmini thread, hopefully in a few days. I do have a couple of reservations which I'd like to explore further before commenting much more. In short, the DACmini seems well balanced from top to bottom and is very resolving yet has smoothness and a bit of warmth that keeps it from sounding etched. Unfortunately I haven't had the opportunity to hear many other amps with the LCD-2's so it's hard to know how it stacks up. I am quite curious how the amp in the DACmini would compare to the Lyr. In particular I'm curious in regards to the bass because while DACmini is no slouch in this regard, I've read very good things about how well the Lyr handles the LCD-2's bottom end.


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





elnero said:


> I've had the DACmini now for almost 2 weeks, unfortunately it's been a hectic couple of weeks so I haven't had much time to formulate any concrete opinions but yes, so far I'm quite pleased with how the DACmini pairs with the LCD-2's. I'm trying to put together some impressions that I'll post in the DACmini thread, hopefully in a few days. I do have a couple of reservations which I'd like to explore further before commenting much more. In short, the DACmini seems well balanced from top to bottom and is very resolving yet has smoothness and a bit of warmth that keeps it from sounding etched. Unfortunately I haven't had the opportunity to hear many other amps with the LCD-2's so it's hard to know how it stacks up. I am quite curious how the amp in the DACmini would compare to the Lyr. In particular I'm curious in regards to the bass because while DACmini is no slouch in this regard, I've read very good things about how well the Lyr handles the LCD-2's bottom end.


 

 To be honest, a lot of people including myself think that the Lyr is pretty mediocre with the LCDs. It could be a case of me comparing it to my rig however I would look at another amp. My 2 cents


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





elnero said:


> I've had the DACmini now for almost 2 weeks, unfortunately it's been a hectic couple of weeks so I haven't had much time to formulate any concrete opinions but yes, so far I'm quite pleased with how the DACmini pairs with the LCD-2's. I'm trying to put together some impressions that I'll post in the DACmini thread, hopefully in a few days. I do have a couple of reservations which I'd like to explore further before commenting much more. In short, the DACmini seems well balanced from top to bottom and is very resolving yet has smoothness and a bit of warmth that keeps it from sounding etched. Unfortunately I haven't had the opportunity to hear many other amps with the LCD-2's so it's hard to know how it stacks up. I am quite curious how the amp in the DACmini would compare to the Lyr. In particular I'm curious in regards to the bass because while DACmini is no slouch in this regard, I've read very good things about how well the Lyr handles the LCD-2's bottom end.


 
  In all honesty, part of the answer you're looking for depends upon the tubes chosen for the gain stage.  In general, in terms of driving power, there is no contest.  The Lyr is a far more capable amp.  In terms of low level nuanced detail, that's where we begin our dependency upon the tubes chosen.  Hope this helps.


----------



## grokit

I'm with *brasewel* re the Lyr > LCD-2, but I was comparing the Lyr to an amp that cost 4 times as much so it wasn't really fair.


----------



## sachu

i'd like to listen to a lyr extended period of time..anyone want to have a mini-meet in portland if you have one?


----------



## brasewel

For a similar priced amp I would look at the concerto. BTW, Grokit which amp were you comparing it to?


----------



## Wedge

The Lyr, with some Mullard CV2492s was a sweet amp for the money, and I think that it is cheaper than the Concerto.  I'm not advocating its the best amp for the LCD-2, but it does sound good with the right tubes, so like for example do I think my WA-22 sound better overall?  Sure, but it does cost close to $2700 with the tubes I have in it.  Does my Leben sound better, hell yes but it cost like $4100 with the tubes I have in it, not a fair comparison.  At 4 times the price I would think its his WA-22.


----------



## brasewel

wedge said:


> The Lyr, with some Mullard CV2492s was a sweet amp for the money, and I think that it is cheaper than the Concerto.  I'm not advocating its the best amp for the LCD-2, but it does sound good with the right tubes, so like for example do I think my WA-22 sound better overall?  Sure, but it does cost close to $2700 with the tubes I have in it.  Does my Leben sound better, hell yes but it cost like $4100 with the tubes I have in it, not a fair comparison.  At 4 times the price I would think its his WA-22.




All of the amps I've heard over a $1000 are a LOT better than the lyr with the LCDs. I think it is best paired with other headphones.


----------



## Wedge

Yeah but the Lyr is only $450.  Still not really a fair comparison.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





brasewel said:


> For a similar priced amp I would look at the concerto. BTW, Grokit which amp were you comparing it to?





   
  Quote: 





wedge said:


> Yeah but the Lyr is only $450.  Still not really a fair comparison.






   
   
  My WA22, balanced in and out to make it even less fair. Both amps had upgraded tubes. The Lyr is great for what it is but it doesn't work miracles. Has anyone made a head-to head comparison between the the Lyr and the EF5? These are pretty comparable amps but I sold my EF5 with my HE-5 before I "auditioned" the Lyr. The specs seem different but from using both at different times they are pretty similar in output power when the EF5 is set to high gain. The Lyr has two tubes and a preamp out, the EF5 has the gain switch and a seperate housing for the power supply. The price for the EF5 is $50 more but discounts can be had if purchased with an HE headphone.


----------



## brasewel

Yes I was at a meet recently and the EF-5 seemed to be the better amp IMO. It's not as powerful as the lyr but it seemed to be the better match. Both amps were using stock tubes.


----------



## Snips

So the Lyr with LCD-2 is a no go? Or would tube rolling improve the match?


----------



## elnero

I guess what I was really getting at when I mentioned the Lyr is I'm curious to hear more about how well the DACmini stacks up against some or the known better performers with the LCD-2's, the Lyr is the obvious choice for me given it's in a similar price category. Well, at least in my case they fall into similar price categories because it came down to a choice of the Lyr plus my Pico DAC or the DACmini. I ended up choosing the DACmini because it seemed like it would be an upgrade on the DAC side, it's small enough to be luggable to work and as I upgrade it could eventually move into a bedside rig.


----------



## Equus

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> I'm looking forward to reading your comments!


 

 Thanks!  The comments shouldn't be too far off.  My DACmini just shipped.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   


  Quote: 





snips said:


> So the Lyr with LCD-2 is a no go? Or would tube rolling improve the match?


 

 No go if money was no limit.  Also really depends on what you're looking for.  It's a solid performer, IMHO, with lots of power and lots of bass.  It's a little uncontrolled and unrefined, from my limited listening to it, but it really did kick out more bass with stock tubes and a limiting DAC than much more expensive setups.  The only system I think I've heard with more beefy bass was curbfeeler's DAC 1 Pre, but the sound sig of the DAC 1 isn't all my cup of tea.  I know I said it only a few sentences back, but it all depends on what you're looking for.  And your taste, of course.
   


  Quote: 





elnero said:


> I guess what I was really getting at when I mentioned the Lyr is I'm curious to hear more about how well the DACmini stacks up against some or the known better performers with the LCD-2's, the Lyr is the obvious choice for me given it's in a similar price category. Well, at least in my case they fall into similar price categories because it came down to a choice of the Lyr plus my Pico DAC or the DACmini. I ended up choosing the DACmini because it seemed like it would be an upgrade on the DAC side, it's small enough to be luggable to work and as I upgrade it could eventually move into a bedside rig.


 
   
  As I haven't received my unit or heard a DACmini, I can't really comment.  Give us a few months, and I'm sure we can hammer together another meet with both the DACmini and Lyr at it.
   
  ...and a Balancing Act...and a DAC 1 Pre...and a WA6SE...and a Liquid Fire.  Damn...I should see where Gil is on the next meet.  LOL


----------



## ptrok

dangalf said:


> Hi all,
> I'm looking to get a headphone setup from scratch. I'm considering the Audeze LCD-2 but am not sure what headphone amp/dac to get. I have a budget of around £500/$800 for the dac/amp. I listen to a variety of music but my favourite is singer-songwriter (e.g. Nick Drake, Tim/Jeff Buckley, Tori Amos etc).
> Would the Firestone Audio Fubar 4+ with power supply be a good option?
> Do you have any other recommendations that fit my budget?
> ...




+3 CEntrance Dacmini

I've had it for about 3 weeks now with an enormous amount of time on them since I left it on and playing for a week so as to break them in. I am really happy with my purchase but unlike others I have very little to base my opinion on but from my listening I have noticed and very refined and controlled sound signature. It doesn't seem to be overly done in the highs or lows and the mids are smooth and well pronounced, with Diana Krall, it seems like she is whispering in my ear in her sultry voice.

I can see where some say it is a colored to be a bit warm since it can cover up some production imperfections. I have no problem listening to low resolution files, it is actually quite forgiving to those files despite its great detail. But when playing hi-res files from just the usb as an input, I am blown away. I love listening to everything from classical, Jazz to Hip-hop and it does a great job representing the music as I would imagine it to be produced.

Granted my opinion is not based on experience with other amps which are probably much better, but as far as a Dac/amp combo in this price range goes, I think it is great. I suggest waiting for some of the opinions of experienced head-fiers and if you get a chance to attend a mini-meet to hear it for yourself. Good luck.


----------



## K3cT

Quote: 





brasewel said:


> For a similar priced amp I would look at the concerto. BTW, Grokit which amp were you comparing it to?


 


  I don't like the Concerto with the LCD2. A bit rough/grainy in the upper mid to treble are and generally thin-sounding.


----------



## Kremer930

Agree.  I auditioned the LCD2 with the Concerto when trying to decide on cans.  It was dark and average sounding, except for some lush bass.  I ended up buying the HE6.  Now I am likely to get myself a set of LCD2's as well and just power them properly this time round.
  
  Quote: 





k3ct said:


> I don't like the Concerto with the LCD2. A bit rough/grainy in the upper mid to treble are and generally thin-sounding.


----------



## brasewel

While I agree the concerto is probably not the best pairing with the LCD, I thought it was a better pairing than the Lyr. The problem with the LCDs is that they require really good equipment to truly shine.


----------



## Snips

Quote: 





equus said:


> Thanks!  The comments shouldn't be too far off.  My DACmini just shipped.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

  
  Alright then. I'll pull the trigger on the Lyr and some new tubes and see how things go. Hopefully it would sound good out of my StageDac O.O


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





kremer930 said:


> Agree.  I auditioned the LCD2 with the Concerto when trying to decide on cans.  It was dark and average sounding, except for some lush bass.  I ended up buying the HE6.  Now I am likely to get myself a set of LCD2's as well and just power them properly this time round.


 
  As I see it, the biggest problem with the Concerto, besides being out of production now, is that it didn't have enough power to fully do justice either of these two cans.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





sachu said:


> i'd like to listen to a lyr extended period of time..anyone want to have a mini-meet in portland if you have one?


 
  Dude, how 'come you haven't called?


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





snips said:


> Alright then. I'll pull the trigger on the Lyr and some new tubes and see how things go. Hopefully it would sound good out of my StageDac O.O


 

 I use the Lyr with my LCD-2s and I love it.  The DAC you use obviously will make a big difference, but the amp does its job very well.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> As I see it, the biggest problem with the Concerto, besides being out of production now, is that it didn't have enough power to fully do justice either of these two cans.


 
   
  Going from one watt or less to two watts with the LCD-2 is like going from night to day, judging from experimentation with the various power tube options in my WA22. But one you reach that power threshold the LCD-2 doesn't really ramp up with additional power. This is from trying them on my HE-6/K1000 speaker amp rig. Once you hit two watts with the LCD-2, it's all about refinement and personal sound signature preference. Once it has adequate power the LCD-2 is incredibly capable of reflecting changes in the source, the amplifier's sound signature, the quality of the recording, various cabling options, tube-rolling, etc. You can accentuate the LCD-2's signature warm sound, you can make them more neutral, you can widen their soundstage, or you can brighten them up by exploring these various options.


----------



## sachu

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> I use the Lyr with my LCD-2s and I love it.  The DAC you use obviously will make a big difference, but the amp does its job very well.


 

 want to swap amps for a week?


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





grokit said:


> Going from one watt or less to two watts with the LCD-2 is like going from night to day, judging from experimentation with the various power tube options in my WA22. But one you reach that power threshold the LCD-2 doesn't really ramp up with additional power. This is from trying them on my HE-6/K1000 speaker amp rig. Once you hit two watts with the LCD-2, it's all about refinement and personal sound signature preference. Once it has adequate power the LCD-2 is incredibly capable of reflecting changes in the source, the amplifier's sound signature, the quality of the recording, various cabling options, tube-rolling, etc. You can accentuate the LCD-2's signature warm sound, you can make them more neutral, you can widen their soundstage, or you can brighten them up by exploring these various options.


 
  Yeah, it's too bad that the Concerto didn't have another WPC available.  Nice sounding amp.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





sachu said:


> want to swap amps for a week?


 

 I could probably be talked into it.


----------



## Dangalf

Just a quick post to thank everyone for their helpful responses - it's much appreciated!
   
  Just need to make sure I have enough money to cover the cost of importing!


----------



## Equus

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> Dude, how 'come you haven't called?


 

 I was wondering the same thing myself.  LOL.
   


  Quote: 





snips said:


> Alright then. I'll pull the trigger on the Lyr and some new tubes and see how things go. Hopefully it would sound good out of my StageDac O.O


 

 Good luck and let us know how it works out for you.  Even if worst comes to worst, you should be able to sell the Lyr without too much trouble and loss, I would think.


----------



## ninjikiran

I am going with the Zen Taboo 6w sometime in the next 2 months, looked interesting and has some rep with a fellow head fi'er.  I was going to sell my Concerto for a Lyr but stopped short of accepting payment based on thoroughly reading the lyr review page.
   
  I do feel the concerto is better than the M-stage though.


----------



## Kremer930

I personally love the Lyr with my HE6.  It is interesting that the Lyr doesnt appear to have the same fan base from LCD owners.  I figured that the LCD and HE* would react quite the same to changes in amping.  I know that the LCD's are more efficient and I think present slightly lower impedance but expected them to perform to similar levels with similar gear.
   
  I have been closely watching this thread as one of my friends is getting a pair of LCD's within the next week and we have been working on amping possibilities.
   
  Both of us are hanging out for the new Schiit amp though that is coming later in the year so are not looking at going over the $1k mark now for a temp solution.
  
  Quote: 





ninjikiran said:


> I am going with the Zen Taboo 6w sometime in the next 2 months, looked interesting and has some rep with a fellow head fi'er.  I was going to sell my Concerto for a Lyr but stopped short of accepting payment based on thoroughly reading the lyr review page.
> 
> I do feel the concerto is better than the M-stage though.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





kremer930 said:


> I personally love the Lyr with my HE6.  It is interesting that the Lyr doesnt appear to have the same fan base from LCD owners.  I figured that the LCD and HE* would react quite the same to changes in amping.  I know that the LCD's are more efficient and I think present slightly lower impedance but expected them to perform to similar levels with similar gear.
> 
> I have been closely watching this thread as one of my friends is getting a pair of LCD's within the next week and we have been working on amping possibilities.
> 
> Both of us are hanging out for the new Schiit amp though that is coming later in the year so are not looking at going over the $1k mark now for a temp solution.


 
  It is my opinion that the more demanding the headphone, the more high power amps like the Lyr set themselves apart from the rest of the crowd.  The LCD-2 is sensitive enough that is can be driven by a 10mW portable listening device, it can be driven even better by a sonically above average 100mW headphone amp.  It can be driven optimally by an amp that can deliver two watts or more.  
   
  The power needs of the HE-6 push it into a different category in terms of the need for power, and the fact that the Lyr can cleanly deliver 4 Watts of power into a 50 ohm load, sets the Lyr apart from most, but not all other headphone amps on the market.  In this setting the Lyr will make more of a difference with the HE-6 than it will with the LCD-2.  With the LCD-2, the Lyr is sort of loafing along, whereas with the HE-6, the Lyr, while working a little harder, can bring out more of the best from the HE-6 than most conventional headamps on the market.  So, there are a wider range of headamps that can do a good job with the LCD-2.


----------



## MacedonianHero

wedge said:


> The Lyr, with some Mullard CV2492s was a sweet amp for the money, and I think that it is cheaper than the Concerto.  I'm not advocating its the best amp for the LCD-2, but it does sound good with the right tubes, so like for example do I think my WA-22 sound better overall?  Sure, but it does cost close to $2700 with the tubes I have in it.  Does my Leben sound better, hell yes but it cost like $4100 with the tubes I have in it, not a fair comparison.  At 4 times the price I would think its his WA-22.




I prefer the Lyr (Genalex Gold Lions or Mullard CV2492) with the LCD-2s over the Concerto ($710) and WA2 with upgraded tubes ($1400ish) FWIW.


----------



## KingStyles

I was able to hear the production Liquid Fire today with the lcd2 and think it is a great combo. I think everybody will feel they received there moneys worth if they are awaiting to receive there unit when it is released. Time to pick up a lcd-2 I suppose. I imagine they will grow on me.


----------



## brasewel

I just got my LCD-2 today and it is rapidly growing on me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. Just love the detail retrieval, resolution and instrument separation.


----------



## Equus

Quote: 





kingstyles said:


> I was able to hear the production Liquid Fire today with the lcd2 and think it is a great combo. I think everybody will feel they received there moneys worth if they are awaiting to receive there unit when it is released. Time to pick up a lcd-2 I suppose. I imagine they will grow on me.


 

 Wow...cool.  One of the review units I assume?  Didn't know there was one out here, or are you traveling? 
   
  Be interesting to see what you think if you have the time and quiet to really listen to them.  I've said it before, but I don't really think meets do the LCD-2 justice.
  
  Quote: 





brasewel said:


> I just got my LCD-2 today and it is rapidly growing on me
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


 Congrats.  Any feedback on synergy with your amps?


----------



## KingStyles

I was actually down in Oregon for a couple of days so I though I would stop into 32 ohm audio. I was the only one in there so it was really quiet. I found that it was acceptable and it was enough of an impression that I am going to pick a pair up in a week or so. He was using the isabellina hpa for the dac which I used to own one. I know what a huge step in quality when I upgraded so I know that it is just going to sound better once I am able to get them in my own system. It was smooth and warm coming through his setup and it allowed me to be able to listen to Norah Jones through it. ( An accomplishment in itself )Had a chance to listen to some pink floyd and also some coyboy junkies. IMO I dont think the isabellina dac is the best dac for the lcd2. The lcd2 is about speed, clarity, and detail, not the strong suit for the isabellina. It kinda neutralized some of the lcd2 best qualities. To each there own though.


----------



## Equus

Awesome.  Good to hear you finally had a chance at a "good" audition.  Looking forward to talking to you about it if you get the LCD-2 and have some time with them.
   
  On my side, the tracking info for my DACMini finally cleared through FedEx, but it won't be here until the 18th.  Ah well.  Maybe I'll have the Rega DAC to distract me from the wait.  Or, knowing my luck, they'll both arrive around the same time.


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





equus said:


> Congrats.  Any feedback on synergy with your amps?


 

 Well I'm using them balanced with my RSA Apache. The synergy is unbelievable, probably only bested by a top tube amp. I've listened to a lot of amps with the LCDs and I think I have a great combo.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





brasewel said:


> Well I'm using them balanced with my RSA Apache. The synergy is unbelievable, probably only bested by a top tube amp. I've listened to a lot of amps with the LCDs and I think I have a great combo.


 
  No doubt your system sounds great.  I've always liked Ray's amps.  I would love to hear the Apache driving the LCD-2s some day.


----------



## ctemkin

Quote: 





brasewel said:


> Well I'm using them balanced with my RSA Apache. The synergy is unbelievable, probably only bested by a top tube amp. I've listened to a lot of amps with the LCDs and I think I have a great combo.


 

 Interesting to hear your view.  I have enjoyed them very much with the Apache, but I have not had the opportunity to compare other amps.


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





ctemkin said:


> Interesting to hear your view.  I have enjoyed them very much with the Apache, but I have not had the opportunity to compare other amps.


 

 I recently attended a meet where I pit my Apache against a triage of amps with the LCD, and I think it was a unanimous decision that the LCDs sounded best through this amp (even besting the balanced RWA Isabellina). I haven't heard them through a good tube amp such as the WA22 or Eddie Current Amps but I'm guessing the step up in performance would be minimal at best.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





brasewel said:


> I recently attended a meet where I pit my Apache against a triage of amps with the LCD, and I think it was a unanimous decision that the LCDs sounded best through this amp (even besting the balanced RWA Isabellina). I haven't heard them through a good tube amp such as the WA22 or Eddie Current Amps but I'm guessing the step up in performance would be minimal at best.


 

 I love my WA22 with the LCD-2 but I agree, what is "better" would depend upon personal preference as well as tube selection. I would like to hear the LCD-2 with a good solid state amp like the Apache for comparison sometime. I bet the LCD-2 would sound great out of a HeadAmp GS-X as well, has anybody tried that combo? It seems similar to the Apache.


----------



## brasewel

The GS-X is one of the rarest amps around. Would definitely like to hear it someday. I did hear the LCD through the B22(3CH) and it was a sweet sounding combo.


----------



## Wedge

Yeah I'd like to hear the RSA Apache sometime, I actually only have one all solid state headphone amp.  I don't use it much anymore but it was quite good especially for what I paid for it.  I'm also interested in hearing the Liquid Fire, so much buzz surrounding that amplifier.  I would also love to hear and see a production version of the balanced Isabellina as I was not completely in love with the prototype, that I heard at the NY meet.


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





wedge said:


> Yeah I'd like to hear the RSA Apache sometime, I actually only have one all solid state headphone amp.  I don't use it much anymore but it was quite good especially for what I paid for it.  I'm also interested in hearing the Liquid Fire, so much buzz surrounding that amplifier.  I would also love to hear and see a production version of the balanced Isabellina as I was not completely in love with the prototype, that I heard at the NY meet.


 

 Lee(sure) should be getting his RWA Isabellina production version soon. We can put all 3 heavyweights to the test 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. Would love to hear your WA-22 with the upgraded tubes.


----------



## SHAHZADA123

Quote: 





grokit said:


> I love my WA22 with the LCD-2 but I agree, what is "better" would depend upon personal preference as well as tube selection. I would like to hear the LCD-2 with a good solid state amp like the Apache for comparison sometime. I bet the LCD-2 would sound great out of a HeadAmp GS-X as well, has anybody tried that combo? It seems similar to the Apache.


 
  What tubes do you have on the WA22 for use with the LCD-2.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





shahzada123 said:


> What tubes do you have on the WA22 for use with the LCD-2.


 
   
  Hehe, we've had this conversation before:
  http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/428570/woo-audio-amp-owner-unite/9840#post_7459135
   
  I've probably got as much into tubes as I do the amp itself at this point, and have tried quite a few combos. But this is the one I have settled on for the LCD-2. Did you get those tubes in from Jack yet?


----------



## SHAHZADA123

Sorry, I suffer from a condition of complete memory deletion...seriously  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Not received the tubes yet.

  
  Quote: 





grokit said:


> Hehe, we've had this conversation before:
> http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/428570/woo-audio-amp-owner-unite/9840#post_7459135
> 
> I've probably got as much into tubes as I do the amp itself at this point, and have tried quite a few combos. But this is the one I have settled on for the LCD-2. Did you get those tubes in from Jack yet?


----------



## grokit

I think it must happen to everyone, I know I have lost track before. It's a seriously fractalized spiderweb of posts and replies here at Head-fi, like a big rabbit/memory hole...


----------



## brasewel

^^ Nice


----------



## DeadEars

Quote: 





brasewel said:


> I recently attended a meet where I pit my Apache against a triage of amps with the LCD, and I think it was a unanimous decision that the LCDs sounded best through this amp (even besting the balanced RWA Isabellina). I haven't heard them through a good tube amp such as the WA22 or Eddie Current Amps but I'm guessing the step up in performance would be minimal at best.


 
   
  Yes, I'm Mr.Tubehead from way back, and even I thought the Apache hit all the right notes.  It excelled in timing and presence.  The latter is one of my favorite qualities in an amp, and usually requires very low distortion and no feedback to achieve it.  IMHO, Brasewel's Apache setup bested all comers at that meet, although several of the best tube candidates were hampered by newness of build or inappropriate tube choices for the LCD-2.  They'll need to lick their wounds and go back for a bit more conditioning. 
   
  I demand a rematch!!  Next time I'll bring some homebuilt stuff that should provide more competition.
   
  Frank


----------



## Wedge

Well, next time we can use my Leben, WA-22, and Apex Peak/Volcano.


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





wedge said:


> Well, next time we can use my Leben, WA-22, and Apex Peak/Volcano.


 

 Should be awesome. I'm guessing the Leben will be far and away the best amp


----------



## Wedge

I think it all depends on your tastes.  I really do love my Apex P/V.  I'm extremely impressed with Pete Millet's work.  We can even add the WA-5 to that comparison list, but you'll have to deal with some noise on the K1K port, I don't think the 1/4" TRS port does any justice for power hungry headphones.  For source now, I'm using the MHDT Havana and I'm just very impressed with it overall.  I had a friend tell me he likes his Lyr compared to my Leben, and another tell me that it cannot possibly get any better than the WA-22 and the LCD-2.  All I can say is it all boils down to your preference, and I often have a tough time saying what makes one amp better than another, even for myself.


----------



## Equus

I agree with Wedge, with how transparent the LCD-2's can be to your rig, it all comes down to preference.  The Apex P/V is really good, no doubt, but I think depending on what you're looking for or what you prioritize, there are amps that may outdo it.  I think that's true of lots of stuff when you get up into a certain price range.  Like we were comparing the Balancing Act and Liquid Fire prototype.  Different sounds, different strengths, all good but all subjective as to which is better for the listener.


----------



## grokit

I wasn't that certain that the WA22 was ideal for the LCD-2 until recently when I finally hit on the right tube combo, thanks to this review. I already had them on hand but I had not tried them together until I read that, now I see that they are Woo's recommended upgrades so Jack probably recommended/supplied them to the reviewer.


----------



## Wedge

I use the Tung-Sol 7236 or 5998, Mullard ECC32 (for those who didn't know mine are actually Chelmer CV-181, but it doesn't matter) and a NOS RCA 5U4G.  I found this to be my favorite sound so far.  I own a pair of the Shuguang Treasure, but not the Sophia 274B, I didn't even bother with the stock tubes.  When I compare the 7236 and 5998 on the LCD-2, I like either one, the 5998s are a little bass heavier sounding to me.  I think the 7236 have a more refined sound where the 5998s have a more visceral sound.  I listened to my amp for all of 20 minutes with the TSRP and decided to leave the Mullards in their rightful place.


----------



## grokit

I was pretty much right there with you until I tried this combo, now I really don't feel the need to roll tubes anymore for the LCD-2. I wouldn't have thought that the 7236 and Princess would go well together, and I hadn't liked the Treasures much at all. But if you have the Treasure and 7236 tubes handy I highly recommend you get a hold of a Princess and try them all together with your LCD-2, if you hear anything like what I do you will start wondering what to do with the rest of your tubes!


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





brasewel said:


> Should be awesome. I'm guessing the Leben will be far and away the best amp


 

 I preferred the Leben over the P/V with the LCD-2, but it was not night and day better by any means.  Shades of excellent.


----------



## Wedge

For me, I might actually prefer the shade the of the P/V in some cases and the Leben for others.  You guys will be able to tell for yourself.  To be honest i couldn't even say with great certainty which times I prefer the Leben vs. the P/V, perhaps for me it might just be mood dependent.
  
  Quote: 





skylab said:


> I preferred the Leben over the P/V with the LCD-2, but it was not night and day better by any means.  Shades of excellent.


----------



## Equus

I can see that.  There were some pieces of music that the P/V was just completely outstanding on.  Other songs were "merely" excellent.


----------



## oqvist

I found a used Yamaha RX-V440 RDS at work. Well respected budget receiver of yesterday. Got it for 20$ including a Sony CDP-M21 cd player and 4 speakers so thought it would be cheap enough to try out the watt thingie for the LCD-2... Specs say 65W at 8 ohm. How many W is left at 50 ohm where the LCD-2 acts you would imagine roughly? I tried it briefly and surprisinly no trafomator hum at all like on the RX-V663.


----------



## brasewel

Anyone paired the LCD-2 with the Eddie Current ZDT or Zana Deux?


----------



## Sweden

Which of these where more musical?

  
  Quote: 





skylab said:


> I preferred the Leben over the P/V with the LCD-2, but it was not night and day better by any means.  Shades of excellent.


----------



## Sweden

Did you try different genres with the P/V and different types of songs?
  How is it with pop/rock vs classical?

  
  Quote: 





equus said:


> I can see that.  There were some pieces of music that the P/V was just completely outstanding on.  Other songs were "merely" excellent.


----------



## JIGF

Quote: 





brasewel said:


> Anyone paired the LCD-2 with the Eddie Current ZDT or Zana Deux?


 

 Larry has, as well as Mike from headfonia, maybe there is someone else I can't remember. They say it (LCD2) does not fair well with that amp.


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





sweden said:


> Which of these where more musical?


 
   
  This, to me, was where the Leben had the slight edge - it's just a little more organic sounding, whereas the P/V can be just a little more "hi-fi" sounding, if you know what I mean.


----------



## Wedge

I think it also matters a little bit on which tubes you have in your Leben.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





wedge said:


> I think it also matters a little bit on which tubes you have in your Leben.


 

 The same can be said for just about any tube amp with the LCD's, they really reflect the differences.


----------



## K_19

Quote: 





grokit said:


> The same can be said for just about any tube amp with the LCD's, they really reflect the differences.


 


  Agreed. Going from one set of tube to another in my WA6SE with LCD-2 really highlights the differences between the tubes.


----------



## Equus

Quote: 





sweden said:


> Did you try different genres with the P/V and different types of songs?
> How is it with pop/rock vs classical?


 


 I listened to a couple of different types of music: JPop, classical, classic rock, new age, etc.  I wouldn't say the genre really made a huge difference (although new age and industrial with the P/V didn't really grab me), but how the songs are composed and mixed.  To my ears, the P/V is absolutely amazing in imaging and clarity...those two can't help but grab you right away when you listen to it with decent tubes.  It's actually to the point that I thought some songs had images too separated, ad some choral pieces and other songs that were either engineered or recorded with a variety of different sounds didn't really meld together very well, which is totally subjective, of course.  If you want to be able to pick out the particular instrument or voice from the layers of sound, however, I haven't heard anything in the same league as the P/V.  It is definitely an impressively engineered amp, but as others have alluded to, it's like picking what flavor is favorite.
   
  Edit - And yeah...tubes made a huge difference for me on the P/V too.  Certain amps really change a lot with tube rolling, like the Stacker II really has you listening to the tubes, but that's also because you can swap a whole bunch of different types of tubes into it.


----------



## sachu

Checked out the new Cavalli Audio Liquiid Fire at 32 Ohm Audio store here in Portland. Man it is one sweet looking, sounding amp in an unbelievable form factor. Its soooo TINY for all that is packed in it..  This is clearly among the top amplifiers money can buy for headphones.  Very very cool and I can't wait to have one of my own.


----------



## Equus

Awesome man.  Were you able to tell any differences (besides physical) from the pre-prod Liquid Fire?


----------



## sachu

nope..was only there to check out the amp in its flesh. The amp was powered down when i arrived and i didn't have a whole lot of time. so did a quick listen and left.


----------



## grokit

The dimensions for the Liquid Fire aren't listed in their site that I can find, what size is it approximately?


----------



## sachu

(14” x 10” x 3.5”)


----------



## Kremer930

Interesting design.  Some similarities to the Schiit Lyr.  It seems to switch out out class A quite early though. 
   
  I love the look of the Cavalli.


----------



## brasewel

Sachu do you know if the price of the Liquid Fire would increase once the initial production run has completed and if so, what would be the increase.


----------



## sachu

haha..you mean the Lyr has far more similarities when compared to something like the Cavalli Audio EHHA which has been around for 4-5 years now.
   
  As for power rating on the Cavalli Audio, .the LF is exactly just as powerful as a B22 or EHHA which is a LOT.
   
  edit: On price.yes that is the indication..the 2750 sticker tag is an intro price. As for how much it would go up, your guess is as good as mine.


----------



## Kremer930

Sorry.  Was just fishing for a bite....
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Will be interesting to hear some reviews of the final production version.
   
  Love the look of the tubes through the glass.
  
  Quote: 





sachu said:


> haha..you mean the Lyr has far more similarities when compared to something like the Cavalli Audio EHHA which has been around for 4-5 years now.
> 
> As for power rating on the Cavalli Audio, .the LF is exactly just as powerful as a B22 or EHHA which is a LOT.
> 
> edit: On price.yes that is the indication..the 2750 sticker tag is an intro price. As for how much it would go up, your guess is as good as mine.


----------



## oqvist

Quote: 





oqvist said:


> I found a used Yamaha RX-V440 RDS at work. Well respected budget receiver of yesterday. Got it for 20$ including a Sony CDP-M21 cd player and 4 speakers so thought it would be cheap enough to try out the watt thingie for the LCD-2... Specs say 65W at 8 ohm. How many W is left at 50 ohm where the LCD-2 acts you would imagine roughly? I tried it briefly and surprisinly no trafomator hum at all like on the RX-V663.


 


 bump any educated guess? Could I expect 5W per channel at least? Really nice receiver for the LCD-2. Absolutely dead silent when no music is played and to my ears very neutral and life like with classical on the LCD-2. No porblem going one on one with the C-2.1 which is the only comparison I made so far.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





oqvist said:


> bump any educated guess? Could I expect 5W per channel at least? Really nice receiver for the LCD-2. Absolutely dead silent when no music is played and to my ears very neutral and life like with classical on the LCD-2. No porblem going one on one with the C-2.1 which is the only comparison I made so far.


 
  About 10WPC.


----------



## dannie01

You mean the LCD-2 direct connected to the speaker output without adding any resistor to load from the output because I learnt from other thteads that you have to put a resistor ( forgot the value) parallel connect to have a better result, any idea?  

  
  Quote: 





oqvist said:


> bump any educated guess? Could I expect 5W per channel at least? Really nice receiver for the LCD-2. Absolutely dead silent when no music is played and to my ears very neutral and life like with classical on the LCD-2. No porblem going one on one with the C-2.1 which is the only comparison I made so far.


----------



## ETAHL

Quote: 





dannie01 said:


> You mean the LCD-2 direct connected to the speaker output without adding any resistor to load from the output because I learnt from other thteads that you have to put a resistor ( forgot the value) parallel connect to have a better result, any idea?


 
  Certain amps requires the proper load resistor, ie. tube amps and digital amps (T-amps). Most solid state amps should not be an issue.
  A 10 ohm power resistor in parallel with the LCD-2 should give you 8 ohms. Make sure the 10 ohm resistor has high enough wattage rating; 10 watt should do, unless you like listening really loud. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  BTW, LCD-2 can handle 15W max.
   
  If you are setup to use speaker out connection, you should give an inexpensive T-amp a try with your LCD-2. You will be pleasantly surprised.


----------



## dannie01

Quote: 





etahl said:


> Certain amps requires the proper load resistor, ie. tube amps and digital amps (T-amps). Most solid state amps should not be an issue.
> A 10 ohm power resistor in parallel with the LCD-2 should give you 8 ohms. Make sure the 10 ohm resistor has high enough wattage rating; 10 watt should do, unless you like listening really loud.
> 
> 
> ...


 


 Thank a lot, ETAHL. You recalled I have asked similar question in the T-amp thread and you answered my question there.


----------



## rudi0504

I just received my LCD 2 with new Pads and ADZ5 Cable last week on Friday
   
  My System are : 
  GRAHAM SLEE SOLO ULTRA LINEAR
  MEIER STAGE DAC
  RCA SILVER CABLE SCSAG
  IMAC /ITUNES ALL MUSIC WAS RECORD IN WAV FORMAT  and CD Player YAMAHA
  LCD 2
   
  I am very happy with my first impressed my System above , My LCD 2 have not breaking yet.
   
  In my opinion my System above THE SYNERGIE very good for LCD 2, HIGH more open and very clean, MID so sweet like from 
   
  TUBE amp and THE BASS so DEEP and  VERY TIGHT.   
   
  This LCD 2 new Badge are better than the first Version LCD 2
   
  Cheers


----------



## K3cT

Hi rudi054, I never know you also post in Head-Fi. Have fun with your new system.


----------



## rudi0504

Dear K3cT
   
  Thank you for your comment, it is nice to know you and all here in Head Fi 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  I learn more here specially from Macediniahero and Zoldar, thank you my friends here.
   
  Cheers


----------



## WarriorAnt

Now I'm in amp hell again.  I don't own an amp yet but I now have the coin to get a Violectric V200 which I had truly planned on ordering but then somehow I saw the reviews of the Apex Peak, with Volcano power supply.  Suddenly I'm telling myself to wait and save a bit more...


----------



## K3cT

I'm sure it will be worth it. It's designed by THAT Pete Millet isn't it not?


----------



## Wedge

It is a Pete Millet amp.
  
  Quote: 





k3ct said:


> I'm sure it will be worth it. It's designed by THAT Pete Millet isn't it not?


----------



## oqvist

Quote: 





dannie01 said:


> You mean the LCD-2 direct connected to the speaker output without adding any resistor to load from the output because I learnt from other thteads that you have to put a resistor ( forgot the value) parallel connect to have a better result, any idea?


 


  Yes directly. Transistors could attenuate noise some what and give more space for volume adjustments and make the chance less likely to blow the transducer. But other then that there should be no benefit sonically more likely the opposite if you want to make sure you have infinite head room ? Do correct me if I am wrong.
   
  I must say this was a crazy deal for 20$. It easilly match the value of the C-2.1 if you consider the EQ, DSP, extra features you get with it. Sonically it does keep up certainly. Absolutely dead silent even when no music is played and stacks well on the RX-V663. Compared it to the C-2.1 I haven´t yet managed to find something to indicate the more power helps any. However the LCD-2 is extremely neutral on the speaker amp possible more so then the C-2.1 with the Earth. Receiver a bit more dry and will not please tube fans but the synergy is there. Both very detailed. Everything is intregrated superbly. A tiny bit of "gravel" on the receiver but that is mostly due to the stock cable I use I suspect. Comparison was with the ADZ5 for the C-2.1 so hasn´t been able to do a straight comparison.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





wedge said:


> It is a Pete Millet amp.


 

 I do not who pete Millet is but apparently he is well respected.   Wedge. perhaps I could wedge your Apex from you... send me a PM


----------



## Sweden

Any amp that have the about same "musicality" and organic sound as the Leben but for half/third of the price?


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





sweden said:


> Any amp that have the about same "musicality" and organic sound as the Leben but for half/third of the price?


 

 This is a tough one. Look into the Decware amps.


----------



## Equus

Quote: 





brasewel said:


> This is a tough one. Look into the Decware amps.


 


  Or maybe DIY.  Used may also be a good option.  If I ever sell my Stacker, for instance, it's a fantastic amp for the LCD-2 from an organic and emotional standpoint.


----------



## USAudio

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> I do not who pete Millet is but apparently he is well respected.   Wedge. perhaps I could wedge your Apex from you... send me a PM


 

 FYI - http://www.pmillett.com/
  I believe he's also done some design work for HeadRoom and probably others.


----------



## Skylab

The Decware Mini-Torri is about half the price of the Leben, and definitely has that organic rightness. it is great with Orthos, but not as good for other low-impedance cans, especially ones of high sensitivity.


----------



## Sweden

How does the Mini-Torri compare with the less pricy Zen Taboo?

  
  Quote: 





skylab said:


> The Decware Mini-Torri is about half the price of the Leben, and definitely has that organic rightness. it is great with Orthos, but not as good for other low-impedance cans, especially ones of high sensitivity.


----------



## Skylab

I have never heard the Taboo.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





skylab said:


> The Decware Mini-Torri is about half the price of the Leben, and definitely has that organic rightness. it is great with Orthos, but not as good for other low-impedance cans, especially ones of high sensitivity.


 


  Would you prefer the Mini-Torri or the Apex Peak/Volcano with the LCD?


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> Would you prefer the Mini-Torri or the Apex Peak/Volcano with the LCD?


 

 I would like to know this as well. I am considering possibly swapping my Apache for the mini-torii since I want to venture into the land of tubes, but I'm not sure if it's the right decision.


----------



## USAudio

Quote: 





brasewel said:


> I would like to know this as well. I am considering possibly swapping my Apache for the mini-torii since I want to venture into the land of tubes, but I'm not sure if it's the right decision.


 
  You haven't had the Apache very long, have you?  Too solid-state-ish?


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





usaudio said:


> You haven't had the Apache very long, have you?  *Too solid-state-ish?*


 

 Not at all. The LCDs are absolutely phenomenal with the Apache but I'm just curious about good tube setups.


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> Would you prefer the Mini-Torri or the Apex Peak/Volcano with the LCD?


 
   
  JUST with the LCD-2, I personally slightly preferred the Mini-Torri.  But the Apex is the much more versatile amp in terms of driving many different headphones.


----------



## Wedge

Quote: 





skylab said:


> JUST with the LCD-2, I personally slightly preferred the Mini-Torri.  But the Apex is the much more versatile amp in terms of driving many different headphones.


 

  Would you say this is dependant on which tubes you were using or all around?


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





wedge said:


> Would you say this is dependant on which tubes you were using or all around?


 

 REALLY hard to say.  I did not tube roll extensively in the M-T; the P/V was much better with a Mullard ECC32 than it was with the stock tube, though.  I did not get to compare them directly, either, so that's also tough.


----------



## Sweden

I'm shure i could find this in another thread, but how much of an increase in SQ would the Vulcano bring the Apex to harder to drive headphones like the LCD-2?
  It's a pretty hefty price tag for a power supply..


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





sweden said:


> I'm shure i could find this in another thread, but how much of an increase in SQ would the Vulcano bring the Apex to harder to drive headphones like the LCD-2?
> It's a pretty hefty price tag for a power supply..


 

 I would think it brings a noticeable difference in SQ, but I haven't heard the combo so I can't comment further. You're right though, the PSU costs about half as much as the amp which could deter some people.


----------



## Wedge

As has been said before in this thread, the better the power supply, in general the better the amp, this is because power supply is one of the most important things.  It is extremely important to have good, clean, stable power available.  I bought the amp with the volcano though so I can't comment on the difference, but I would say that I really look at it as a $2100 amplifier, and not a $1400 with a $700 power supply.  Although I am a big fan that if you want a good amp to start, with one and upgrade to the other.  Just because it can fit into peoples budgets better that way.


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





wedge said:


> As has been said before in this thread, the better the power supply, in general the better the amp, this is because power supply is one of the most important things.  It is extremely important to have good, clean, stable power available.  I bought the amp with the volcano though so I can't comment on the difference, but I would say that I really look at it as a $2100 amplifier, and not a $1400 with a $700 power supply.  Although I am a big fan that if you want a good amp to start, with one and upgrade to the other.  Just because it can fit into peoples budgets better that way.


 

 Can't you compare the differences? Doesn't the apex come with a walwart powersupply?


----------



## Skylab

The SPL Phonitor outputs 1.7W into 600 ohm, but "only" 360mw into 30 ohm. I've never heard one, but at least from a power output point of view, it would not seem to be an ideal choice for the LCD-2.


----------



## Loevhagen

The Violectric V200 outputs 2.7W into 50 ohm, which is more or less what the LCD-2s are. Just a thought...
   
  For 600ohm -> 0.6W (but 18.5V)
  For 100ohm -> 2.2W
  For 32ohm -> 2W 
  For 16ohm -> 1W


----------



## Wedge

Quote: 





brasewel said:


> Can't you compare the differences? Doesn't the apex come with a walwart powersupply?


 

 No, I ordered them together.


----------



## jax

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *brasewel*
> 
> 
> 
> Can't you compare the differences? Doesn't the apex come with a walwart powersupply?


 
   
   
   
  No, the stock supply is not a wall wart.  It is a small switching power supply with a fixed cord, if I recall correctly.  I was part of the APV loaner program and wrote a review.  The difference is definitely significant and I, personally, would not consider the Apex Peak with the stock supply to be competitive with other amps at the pricepoint (IOW there are better choices for the $ at that point).  OTOH, if you are just picking one up with the definite intention of getting the Volcano at a later date, it's not like you'd throw it out of bed, as it were - It certainly wasn't awful or anything like that, but adding the volcano PS you get significantly better dynamics and resolution, and everything occurred as more smoothly integrated and natural sounding. As soon as I heard the difference I knew I would not spend much time at all listening with the stock power supply. It made a big difference to my ears.


----------



## WarriorAnt

I've had a few pre amps for my speaker rig that had a separate power supply.  I actually prefer that type of setup.


----------



## jax

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> I've had a few pre amps for my speaker rig that had a separate power supply.  I actually prefer that type of setup.


 


  The stock power supply IS still a separate power supply.  In this case it isn't a question of "separate" it is a question of the quality of the PS itself.  The Volcano supply is a purpose designed, hand-built supply designed (by Pete Millet) specifically for the Apex Peak.  The stock supply is an off the shelf switching power supply (I'm not certain that no mods are done to it by AP) that puts out the correct voltage for the AP.  So if you buy the Peak with the stock supply you can easily upgrade to the Volcano later on and simply plug and play.  No adaptation or modifications required. 
   
  My current preamp has an outboard supply that is as large as and weighs more than the preamp.  It provides superb in performance, but I do wish it didn't take up that much space (two full shelves in a standard sized rack).  Unfortunately when you build a PS to that level it's rather difficult to fit the supply and the preamp into one box.  There is also the aspect of isolating the PS from the component - I can't really speak to the advantages there, but imagine there may be some, but don't really know for sure.  Kwkarth?


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





jax said:


> The stock power supply IS still a separate power supply.  In this case it isn't a question of "separate" it is a question of the quality of the PS itself.  The Volcano supply is a purpose designed, hand-built supply designed (by Pete Millet) specifically for the Apex Peak.  The stock supply is an off the shelf switching power supply (I'm not certain that no mods are done to it by AP) that puts out the correct voltage for the AP.  So if you buy the Peak with the stock supply you can easily upgrade to the Volcano later on and simply plug and play.  No adaptation or modifications required.
> 
> My current preamp has an outboard supply that is as large as and weighs more than the preamp.  It provides superb in performance, but I do wish it didn't take up that much space (two full shelves in a standard sized rack).  Unfortunately when you build a PS to that level it's rather difficult to fit the supply and the preamp into one box.  There is also the aspect of isolating the PS from the component - I can't really speak to the advantages there, but imagine there may be some, but don't really know for sure.  Kwkarth?


 
  Advantages of an outboard power supply...
  Off the top of my head, here as few things to consider;

 An outboard supply is inherently quieter than an inboard power supply due to the inverse square law WRT inductive coupling between power supply xfrmr and small signal amp. circuits.
 An outboard supply allows you to optimally orient the PS to even further minimize inductive noise coupling.
 An outboard PS makes heat dissipation easier to deal with.
 An outboard supply allows you to use more space  to optimally size and orient the xfrmr, the filter caps, the filter inductors, the rectifiers, and the basic regulation circuits to the needs of the amp.  (further regulation and decoupling will optimally be done within the amp as well)
   
  Off the top of my head, those are the big things, although, I'm sure I've forgotten some things.
   
  The down side of course is room/space and cabling and connectors between PS and amp.


----------



## jax

Thanks for that, Kwkarth.  I knew there were some pretty compelling advantages.   Why is it that more frequently you will see outboard power supplies available on front-end components and preamps, but not nearly as frequently on power amps?  I'm going to guess it has something do do with the level of signal amplification...being more critical to keep SNR down in the pre stage, going from low-level to line level signal. Anyway, I can't think of many power amps in the speaker world that have the power supply components housed separately. 
  
  Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> Advantages of an outboard power supply...
> Off the top of my head, here as few things to consider;
> 
> An outboard supply is inherently quieter than an inboard power supply due to the inverse square law WRT inductive coupling between power supply xfrmr and small signal amp. circuits.
> ...


----------



## Wedge

Quote: 





jax said:


> Thanks for that, Kwkarth.  I knew there were some pretty compelling advantages.   Why is it that more frequently you will see outboard power supplies available on front-end components and preamps, but not nearly as frequently on power amps?  I'm going to guess it has something do do with the level of signal amplification...being more critical to keep SNR down in the pre stage, going from low-level to line level signal. Anyway, I can't think of many power amps in the speaker world that have the power supply components housed separately.


 
   
  It wouldn't be as frequent on power amps or any application which would require large currents to be carried via cables as it becomes very impractical.  Connectors surface area, cable size, etc. become a concern when carrying large currents and maintaining voltage droop, as well as keeping the supply voltages clean.  The higher the voltage though the less of a concern it becomes so some tube amps like Woo Audio WA-5 it works fine, that and an 8Wx2 amp really doesn't need a whole lot of current.  This in addition to your reasons stated above would be about enough to deter most electrical engineers from wanting external PSU for power amplifier application.


----------



## jax

Quote: 





wedge said:


> It wouldn't be as frequent on power amps or any application which would require large currents to be carried via cables as it becomes very impractical.  Connectors surface area, cable size, etc. become a concern when carrying large currents and maintaining voltage droop, as well as keeping the supply voltages clean.  The higher the voltage though the less of a concern it becomes so some tube amps like Woo Audio WA-5 it works fine, that and an 8Wx2 amp really doesn't need a whole lot of current.  This in addition to your reasons stated above would be about enough to deter most electrical engineers from wanting external PSU for power amplifier application.


 
   
  Thanks, Wedge.  The WA-5 is essentially an integrated amp though, with both pre and power stages in one chassis, and the power supply as an outboard chassis.  Are most headphone amps essentially integrated amplifiers?  Or are they just not needing to amplify the low-level signal as much as speakers might require, and therefor omitting the pre stage?


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





jax said:


> Thanks for that, Kwkarth.  I knew there were some pretty compelling advantages.   Why is it that more frequently you will see outboard power supplies available on front-end components and preamps, but not nearly as frequently on power amps?  *I'm going to guess it has something do do with the level of signal amplification...being more critical to keep SNR down in the pre stage, going from low-level to line level signal.* Anyway, I can't think of many power amps in the speaker world that have the power supply components housed separately.


 
  You are right for that very important issue you mentioned above.  The other reasons have to do with;

 Overall Chassis size is generally larger, allowing room to better integrate the supply with the rest of the amp
 Current levels in a speaker amp are many times higher that they are in head-amps, pre-amps, and DAC / sources, as such, power supply cable length, gauge, and connector current carrying capacity would would become real issues.


----------



## Wedge

Quote: 





jax said:


> Thanks, Wedge.  The WA-5 is essentially an integrated amp though, with both pre and power stages in one chassis, and the power supply as an outboard chassis.  Are most headphone amps essentially integrated amplifiers?  Or are they just not needing to amplify the low-level signal as much as speakers might require, and therefor omitting the pre stage?


 
   
  In audio land a pre-amp generally denotes a volume control, source select, and some voltage gain stage.  A power amplifier in general is made up of a voltage gain stage (drive), and current source (output stage, however can also have gain in this stage as well).  So in essence some headphone amps are integrated amps, some are just a piece of what would normally be integrated amplifier which is supposed to contain all of the above.  In other electronics engineering a pre-amp is just another term for a gain stage in the early part of the chain, it doesn't actually have to have any electrical difference.  So you can kind of call it what you want, because I think in audio we don't follow the conventions as a lot of other engineering, or the other engineering disciplines don't follow the audio model, which ever way you want to see it.


----------



## zzffnn

Has anyone here heard a Nelson Pass First Watt F1 or F2 or Aleph clone with LCD-2s? I am looking into F2, F2J or Alepha 3 /J/Mini, here due to cheaper cost. I can not DIY unfortunately.


----------



## Pale Rider

zzffnn, if you're considering a First Watt, you should be considering a Decware Taboo as well. Once I paired up the Taboo with my LCD-2s, I sold my RSA Apache and Senn HD800s. Taboo I believe is quite a bit cheaper as well.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





pale rider said:


> zzffnn, if you're considering a First Watt, you should be considering a Decware Taboo as well. Once I paired up the Taboo with my LCD-2s, I sold my RSA Apache and Senn HD800s. Taboo I believe is quite a bit cheaper as well.


 
 Pale Rider,  how is your Zen Taboo configured?  Does it have the  stepped attentuator.  Did you get the V-Caps?
   
I'm a little confused by the sites description of the Taboo.  It says "It features a completely unique thing called "Lucid Mode" that can be switched in and out on the fly when configured for loudspeakers and is permanently engaged when configured for Phones. 
   
  This "Configuration" does it come either configured for speakers or headphones?  Of can it do both, drive headphone and speakers?  
   
  Can it run as a preamp also?  I'd be interested in using it straight out of my W4S DAC-2 into the Zen Taboo into the LCD's.  But I'm also interested in using it as an amp for small speakers out of the W4S DAC-2.


----------



## zzffnn

Thanks for your advice, Pale Rider. Having a baby at home, I now prefer to stay away from tube amps. Taboo is also over my $700 budget. I am looking into DIY CLONES of Nelson Pass F1, F1J, F2, and F2J, because their current drive ability, which was said to match well with K1000s before. I am wondering if they will serve my LCD-2s better than Beta 22.
  
  Quote: 





pale rider said:


> zzffnn, if you're considering a First Watt, you should be considering a Decware Taboo as well. Once I paired up the Taboo with my LCD-2s, I sold my RSA Apache and Senn HD800s. Taboo I believe is quite a bit cheaper as well.


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





pale rider said:


> zzffnn, if you're considering a First Watt, you should be considering a Decware Taboo as well. Once I paired up the Taboo with my LCD-2s, I sold my RSA Apache and Senn HD800s. Taboo I believe is quite a bit cheaper as well.


 

 Greg you weren't able to compare your Apache with the Taboo using the LCDs right? I was thinking of getting the taboo or mini-torii since it's cheaper but I have yet to hear a better combo with my LCDs.


----------



## Equus

Quote: 





zzffnn said:


> Thanks for your advice, Pale Rider. Having a baby at home, I now prefer to stay away from tube amps. Taboo is also over my $700 budget. I am looking into DIY CLONES of Nelson Pass F1, F1J, F2, and F2J, because their current drive ability, which was said to match well with K1000s before. I am wondering if they will serve my LCD-2s better than Beta 22.


 


  Curious as to why you would prefer SS with the baby in the house.  Is it because several designs have exposed tubes, or fear about the fragile nature of tubes, or something else?  Not saying it's not rational, just curious.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  After a little bit of time with the DACmini, it's a nice all-in-one package with the LCD-2.  The DAC portion is very detailed, though it lacks some of the weight and extension of some other DACs out there.  My impressions haven't changed much from the first time listening to it: the setup has a nice and pleasing round sound that doesn't over-emphasize sibilance and has very little etch in the trebles.  It has a little dollop of mids magic, but because there isn't an unbalanced presence in the bass or treble, the overall presentation maintains a very nice balance while being a hair on the polite side.  It remains to be seen if the sound changes with more use, but a nice purchase for an LCD-2 owner who doesn't prioritize lots of bass presence.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





equus said:


> Curious as to why you would prefer SS with the baby in the house.  Is it because several designs have exposed tubes, or fear about the fragile nature of tubes, or something else?  Not saying it's not rational, just curious.


 

 I had power amp tubes in the house when my daughter was growing up and I was ALWAYS afraid she'd be drawn to them and then burn herself on the power tubes. On the other hand I also had Krell amps with those really big nasty heat sinks and I was afraid she'd fall into one burn herself and get sliced and diced on the fins.  I got rid of the tubes and covered the Krells when they were not in use.  I know a lot of people who wouldn't have Krell amps in their homes because they had kids...


----------



## Wedge

Rob, did you get a chance to try the P/V with any other tube other than the ECC32?  I just gave it a listen with the B65.  And interestingly enough I think it might be a better tube for the P/V at least with the LCD-2.


----------



## Skylab

Actually I do not recall trying anything but the stock tube and the ECC32, off the top of my head. I only had about a week with the loaner.


----------



## jackmccabe

I really like the lcd-2's with the ck2III it compared very well to my now sold b22.


----------



## pp312

Not having read much of this thread, I was just wondering if anyone has any experience driving the LCD-2 with a regular integrated amp, or even a good HT amp. I'm talking now about from the HP jack, though I'd also be interested in from the speaker outs. I'm after an amp with remote volume, in particular where the volume is able to be operated in small increments, as with digital amps (1-2db). I currently use an Onkyo 9555, which can do this, but being Class D it uses a separate HP amp, so I'm not actually getting the benefit of a speaker amp for the LCD-2, assuming there is a benefit.


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





pp312 said:


> Not having read much of this thread, I was just wondering if anyone has any experience driving the LCD-2 with a regular integrated amp, or even a good HT amp. I'm talking now about from the HP jack, though I'd also be interested in from the speaker outs. I'm after an amp with remote volume, in particular where the volume is able to be operated in small increments, as with digital amps (1-2db). I currently use an Onkyo 9555, which can do this, but being Class D it uses a separate HP amp, so I'm not actually getting the benefit of a speaker amp for the LCD-2, assuming there is a benefit.


 


  Yes, I piped my LCD2s straight into the 8 ohm tap of my transformer coupled tube integrated (sounded better than the 4 ohm tap, and I have since learned its not the best thing to do to transformer coupled tube amps).  I had problems with noise floor but other than that, it gave my LCD2s the biggest soundstage I have ever heard from it - and that includes the Phoenix amplifier, but it wasn't quite as 3 dimensional.  I think a solid state amplfier should have a much lower noise floor and it might work well - although my one was a 50 watt integrated, I think that was already a little too much as I didn't have much control of the volume - peaking at 8 - 9 O'clock max.
   
  If I was on a budget, a remote controlled NAD or Cambridge Audio with multiple inputs and tone controls of about 30 watts might work really well.  Worth hitting up a cheap after market market cable maker to fashion an LCD2 cable with speaker ends for your Onkyo as many Class D amps do not tolerate a common ground.
   
  Come think of it, what's wrong with headamp manufacturers - where are those tone controls?


----------



## WarriorAnt

I'd love to see a high end EQ unit for cans...


----------



## oqvist

Quote: 





sp wild said:


> Yes, I piped my LCD2s straight into the 8 ohm tap of my transformer coupled tube integrated (sounded better than the 4 ohm tap, and I have since learned its not the best thing to do to transformer coupled tube amps).  I had problems with noise floor but other than that, it gave my LCD2s the biggest soundstage I have ever heard from it - and that includes the Phoenix amplifier, but it wasn't quite as 3 dimensional.  I think a solid state amplfier should have a much lower noise floor and it might work well - although my one was a 50 watt integrated, I think that was already a little too much as I didn't have much control of the volume - peaking at 8 - 9 O'clock max.
> 
> If I was on a budget, a remote controlled NAD or Cambridge Audio with multiple inputs and tone controls of about 30 watts might work really well.  Worth hitting up a cheap after market market cable maker to fashion an LCD2 cable with speaker ends for your Onkyo as many Class D amps do not tolerate a common ground.
> 
> Come think of it, what's wrong with headamp manufacturers - where are those tone controls?


 

 Except for tonal control balance controls would be extremely handy as well
   
  I tried the Yamaha RX-V663 and Yamaha RX-V400RDS. The former was pretty unusable due to trafomator hum. The 400 surprised me by being just as silent as any headphone amp I ever heard. I do enjoy the LCD-2 a lot on it very neutral and transparent to my ears.
   
  If you want really cheap amps to drive the LCD-2 to the fully this is probably the way to go. Payed 20$ for mine and that included 4 speakers and a half broken cd player


----------



## Sweden

This is very much interesting.
  Any one else who tried the LCD-2 with speaker amps?


----------



## pp312

Quote: 





sp wild said:


> If I was on a budget, a remote controlled NAD or Cambridge Audio with multiple inputs and tone controls of about 30 watts might work really well.


 
   
  Yes, my thought exactly. Only trouble with regular, motor driven remote amps is it's hard to control volume in small steps--it's either too much or too little.


----------



## tme110

I had the chance to listen to LCD-2s on my MAD Ear+ HD today - it worked surprisingly well.  It had more than enough volume too.  But I got to use some organ music that I found to be a great test to find weakness in underpowered amps and it played them well.  Yes, it may have insufficient stats (low power) but with the dedicated low-impedance jack and the increased current from the output transformer - it works well.  I'm not saying that there aren't much better pairings out there but it still works better than you'd think.


----------



## Permagrin

tme110 said:


> I had the chance to listen to LCD-2s on my MAD Ear+ HD today - it worked surprisingly well.  It had more than enough volume too.  But I got to use some organ music that I found to be a great test to find weakness in underpowered amps and it played them well.  Yes, it may have insufficient stats (low power) but with the dedicated low-impedance jack and the increased current from the output transformer - it works well.  I'm not saying that there aren't much better pairings out there but it still works better than you'd think.




It is indeed a competent amp for the LCD-2s, glad you came over Mike.

Cheers!


----------



## DeadEars

Quote: 





tme110 said:


> I had the chance to listen to LCD-2s on my MAD Ear+ HD today - it worked surprisingly well.  It had more than enough volume too.  But I got to use some organ music that I found to be a great test to find weakness in underpowered amps and it played them well.  Yes, it may have insufficient stats (low power) but with the dedicated low-impedance jack and the increased current from the output transformer - it works well.  I'm not saying that there aren't much better pairings out there but it still works better than you'd think.


 


  Yes, I think the term "surprisingly well" is right on.  I took my MAD amp to a meet a couple weekends ago and surprised a lot of people with how well it drove the LCD-2's.  I'm using the 500mA MAD Super-II, and it is plenty powerful enough for most of my listening, but runs out of gas on large orchestral works.  But the SQ is outstanding.
   
  On the bass front, I did discover that the bass line cleaned up a bit with a set of Steve Eddy's Q-cables.  YMMV !


----------



## Junliang

Just a little update..
   
  Currently using this combo for like half a year already.
   
  Laptop > Meier Audio StageDAC > Silver 4N RCA > Meier Audio Corda Concerto > ADZ-5 > LCD2

 Freaking in love with the combo..
   
  when "tuned" properly, the bass is deep and tight and impactful.
 details is plentiful.
 the presentation is simply awesome..

 9.9/10

 0.1 for the comfort of lcd2 to decrease after long duration < the fatigue level is no laughing matter..

 <3 the combo


----------



## Yoga

Not got the time to read 155 pages, would someone be so kind as to answer this:
   
  Do the LCD-2s and the Matrix M-Stage work well together? Most likely with the Rega DAC.
   
  Either that or with the Burson HA-160D :¬)


----------



## jackmccabe

IMO the ck2III or gilmore lite is a better match than the matrix.


----------



## jax

Quote: 





yoga said:


> Not got the time to read 155 pages, would someone be so kind as to answer this:
> 
> Do the LCD-2s and the Matrix M-Stage work well together? Most likely with the Rega DAC.
> 
> Either that or with the Burson HA-160D :¬)


 


  Tip: a useful tool at the top of the page on each thread:  "Search This Thread"
   
=495631&output=posts&action=disp]Here's a search of "Matrix' within this thread for example.


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





deadears said:


> Yes, I think the term "surprisingly well" is right on.  I took my MAD amp to a meet a couple weekends ago and surprised a lot of people with how well it drove the LCD-2's.  I'm using the 500mA MAD Super-II, and it is plenty powerful enough for most of my listening, but runs out of gas on large orchestral works.  But the SQ is outstanding.
> 
> On the bass front, I did discover that the bass line cleaned up a bit with a set of Steve Eddy's Q-cables.  YMMV !


 

 Agreed. It was outstanding =] How are you liking your Q cables Frank? I would like to compare them the next time we meet.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





jax said:


> Tip: a useful tool at the top of the page on each thread:  "Search This Thread"
> 
> Here's a search of "Matrix' within this thread for example.


 

 I can never get that to work.  What exactly do you type in and does it work on a Mac?


----------



## Permagrin

warriorant said:


> I can never get that to work.  What exactly do you type in and does it work on a Mac?




Are you referring to the general search box at top or the pull-down menu (under the thread title) beneath it that searches the specified thread?

The former has poor defaults which you can change in advanced search while the latter works efficiently. I don't see why it shouldn't work on Mac.


----------



## jax

Quote: 





permagrin said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Per Permagrin - should work fine on a Mac.  I wouldn't touch a PC with a 10-foot pole, so I speak from experience.  It's the drop-down search function that is directly above and to the right of "Start an New Thread" just above the post at the top of this page.  I've also found the Advanced Search function to be a bit spotty.  I also find it very annoying to look up a specific member who's record indicates that they have contributed one or more posts to a specific thread, yet there is no link to go directly to those specific contributions.  Anyone have a clue how to do that?  NOT using the advanced search since it is not thread-specific, but in the user's Recent Activity where it lists various threads they've contributed to.


----------



## jax

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> I can never get that to work.  What exactly do you type in and does it work on a Mac?


 
   
  Hey Warrior Ant - I was just looking at your info page -  I'm R.I.T. class of '82; BFA in Photographic Illustration!  Small world.  Are you still making pictures, or did you go another route?
   
  To keep some LCD-2 content - did you happen to ask what had gone wrong with the cans you sent back to Audeze?


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





jax said:


> Per Permagrin - should work fine on a Mac.  I wouldn't touch a PC with a 10-foot pole, so I speak from experience.  It's the drop-down search function that is directly above and to the right of "Start an New Thread" just above the post at the top of this page.  I've also found the Advanced Search function to be a bit spotty.  I also find it very annoying to look up a specific member who's record indicates that they have contributed one or more posts to a specific thread, yet there is no link to go directly to those specific contributions.  Anyone have a clue how to do that?  NOT using the advanced search since it is not thread-specific, but in the user's Recent Activity where it lists various threads they've contributed to.


 
  Now I see it!  I never noticed that before. I always tried using the search on the very top of the page and never noticed  the other area.  Thanks guys.
  
   
 Amp recommendations for Audeze LCD-2  View First Unread Subscribe   Search This Thread Preferences


----------



## DeadEars

Quote: 





brasewel said:


> Agreed. It was outstanding =] How are you liking your Q cables Frank? I would like to compare them the next time we meet.


 


  As others have noted, the Q-cables are a delight in use.  Featherweight & totally flexible.  So I love that aspect.
   
  As far as SQ goes, I immediately noticed an improvement in the clarity of the bass lines on complex orchestral passages using my MAD amp.  I didn't really expect to hear any difference at all, so this was surprising (and annoying) to me.  I did not want to hear any difference, but there it was.  Damn! 
   
  I may have mentioned that I've done a fair amount of experimenting with different DIY cables, trying silver vs. copper, silver-plated copper, etc., different connectors, different wire types & configurations, etc.  I've even tried using Litz wire (and hated working with it).  For example, I restored two different Citation-II amps, and rewired them completely: one was wired entirely in silver and the other in OCC copper.  Playing them side-by-side yielded no differences that I could hear.  In fact, in all this wire experimentation, I've rarely heard any differences, much less consistent differences.  When I have, I can usually trace it to some measurement differences, especially capacitance (and especially in speaker cables). 
   
  Back to the Q-cables:  With my other amps, I felt that the highs were a little more panoramic and perhaps slightly more rounded, especially brass instruments and cymbals, which sounded more incisive without ringing or shrillness.  This was similar to what I heard at our NJ meet with the Norse cables, along with a definite expansion of the soundstage that the Norse provided (as much as I can hear of such a thing, which isn't much given hearing damage in my left ear).  The fact that I did hear something with the Norse was one of the main reasons I decided to try the Q-cables.  That and getting intrigued by Kevin's enthusiasm (kwkarth), and with his offline encouragement, I decided to give Steve Eddy a try.
   
  Not having heard the Q-cables in the same environment as the Norse, I can't say how they compare.  I'm not sure I hear the same soundstage expansion from the Q-cables that the Norse delivered, but that might have been a meet phenomenon.  Anyway, I think many of the SQ benefits are similar.  I do not think you would get much improvement, if any, by swapping your Norse cables for the Q-cables, but we can try it next time we're at a meet
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  None of these differences are really very dramatic, and I would probably never have gone for an aftermarket cable just on that SQ basis. It's almost worth the price for me just to have such a liveable set of wires.  But I guess the proof is in comparison to stock.  Now I find that I simply cannot go back to the stock cable.  I tried it after a week with the Q-cables, and everything sounded more closed-in, and I was immediately annoyed by the ergonomics (this is the Gen 1 cable, not the latest factory cable).  So I can't send 'em back, nor do I want to.  Too bad about my wallet.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





jax said:


> Hey Warrior Ant - I was just looking at your info page -  I'm R.I.T. class of '82; BFA in Photographic Illustration!  Small world.  Are you still making pictures, or did you go another route?
> 
> To keep some LCD-2 content - did you happen to ask what had gone wrong with the cans you sent back to Audeze?


 

 I did not ask what was wrong with my LCD's because the wood had cracked.  Tomorrow will be one week having them back so far so good.  Although I did have a dream that I picked them up to put them on and they crumbled and fell apart into little pieces. That was pretty disturbing. Afterwards my wife found me in the middle of the night polishing them...

 I'll PM you about my BFA from R.I.T.  so we don't clog up the thread. Can't believe I was 2 years ahead of you.   But I will say that I spent 24 years as a high end broadcast video editor in NYC where I edited a zillion shows, colorized them for proper rod and cone reception in the human eye and mixed the audio for 95% of them.   Often shows get sent out to an audio suite for final mixing but most of my clients wanted me to mix their shows so I always ended up doing that.   You can learn a lot about tonal balance when you spend 24 years taking six different mics from six different environments and then EQing them to all sound the same day after day.  Something which is almost impossible but if you want to keep your job you find a way to do that.  Eventually I began composing music for TV also because I got tired of cutting up everyone else's music.


----------



## edvardd

In this thread some people mention Head Direct EF5 being a good match with LCD2. My question is what EF5 tubes and/or opamps have good synergy with EF5?


----------



## PanamaRed

My favorite combination of amp/phones which I own are the Woo Audio 22 with the LCD-2 (balanced ALO cables).


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





panamared said:


> My favorite combination of amp/phones which I own are the Woo Audio 22 with the LCD-2 (balanced ALO cables).


 
  What tubes are you running in the Woo Audio 22?


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





panamared said:


> My favorite combination of amp/phones which I own are the Woo Audio 22 with the LCD-2 (balanced ALO cables).


 

 Me too, except with a Double Helix balanced cable


----------



## PanamaRed

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> What tubes are you running in the Woo Audio 22?


 


 Nothing fancy. Just some NOS tubes.
   
  RCA 5U4GB
  Sylvania 6SN7GTA
  RCA 6080


----------



## Wedge

I like the WA-22 with the LCD-2 but I like the Leben and probably the P/V a little bit better, IMO they have a more neutral presentation.  Don't get me wrong though I could listen to the WA-22 and LCD-2 all day.


----------



## brasewel

Wow didn't know there were so many RIT graduates here. I'm from there as well, 08 graduate though


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> I did not ask what was wrong with my LCD's because the wood had cracked.  Tomorrow will be one week having them back so far so good.  *Although I did have a dream that I picked them up to put them on and they crumbled and fell apart into little pieces. That was pretty disturbing.* Afterwards my wife found me in the middle of the night polishing them...
> 
> I'll PM you about my BFA from R.I.T.  so we don't clog up the thread. Can't believe I was 2 years ahead of you.   But I will say that I spent 24 years as a high end broadcast video editor in NYC where I edited a zillion shows, colorized them for proper rod and cone reception in the human eye and mixed the audio for 95% of them.   Often shows get sent out to an audio suite for final mixing but most of my clients wanted me to mix their shows so I always ended up doing that.   You can learn a lot about tonal balance when you spend 24 years taking six different mics from six different environments and then EQing them to all sound the same day after day.  Something which is almost impossible but if you want to keep your job you find a way to do that.  Eventually I began composing music for TV also because I got tired of cutting up everyone else's music.


 

 That is some dream, reminds me of Inception


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





brasewel said:


> Wow didn't know there were so many RIT graduates here. I'm from there as well, 08 graduate though


 


  Another one from Brick City!


----------



## brasewel

Lol ... it still is 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. Besides a few new buildings it hasn't changed much in the last 40 years


----------



## jax

Quote: 





brasewel said:


> Lol ... it still is
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 All in all you're just another brick in the wall. What's your degree in?
   
  How do you like the RSA Apache with the LCD-2's as compared to other amps you've heard?


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





jax said:


> All in all you're just another brick in the wall. What's your degree in?
> 
> How do you like the RSA Apache with the LCD-2's as compared to other amps you've heard?


 
  I agree, pretty sad college life to be honest =] I did my BS/MS in computer science.
  Well I haven't heard a better combo so far. I have listened to a lot of other amps with the LCDs and I thought Frank's (DeadEars) Super MAD was very good. The RWA Isabellina was pretty good as well. I would like to listen to Wedge's Leben, Apex P/V and WA22 with the LCD sometime.


----------



## Wedge

We can arrange for that.  Selling the WA-22, you'll have to settle for the WA-5, Leben, and P/V.  I've heard though that a few people feel like the Apache and LCD-2 is the best combo.  Ray Samuels seems to build some solid amps, with some pretty solid sound too.  I only have his P-51 though, and I only find that good with IEMs.


----------



## brasewel

Why are you selling the WA-22? I live reasonably close to you that I may like to audition that WA-22 since I was thinking of getting a tube amp.


----------



## Wedge

I want to fund an amp project I am working on.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





wedge said:


> I want to fund an amp project I am working on.


 


  Help fund that project and sell me the Apex Peak/Volcano!


----------



## Wedge

I really like mine.  Sorry


----------



## LiqTenExp

I still have to hear it!  Soon.  I really liked the WA22, if you like the Apex P/V better I can't imagine.


----------



## Wedge

Well I also love my Leben, which you weren't as fond as I am.


----------



## LiqTenExp

I think the leben is a better speaker amp the headphone amp, thats my opinion though the way you have it setup.  What I will say is that it is still an excellent headphone amp!  I think it was the mids that felt recessed on the leben vs. the lyr both using mullard.  It deserves a second listen and I am sure we will compare them again.


----------



## brasewel

Well should be a lot of fun tomorrow comparing the heavyweights.


----------



## zilch0md




----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





pp312 said:


> Yes, my thought exactly. Only trouble with regular, motor driven remote amps is it's hard to control volume in small steps--it's either too much or too little.


 

 If you're using a computer, the digital volume works well and mathematically it doesn't alter the signal at 50 percent when playing CD or MP3.  I also find upsampling to work well with MP3s to smooth out and restore some top end clarity and smoothness that compression causes.


----------



## n3rdling

Has anybody heard the LCD2 from a Dynahi?  This is probably the best I've heard these headphones.  Shahrose?


----------



## Wedge

Well, we are just packing up for the night.  Interesting little get together we had here.  Amps on hand, RSA Apache, Leben CS300XS, Schiit Lyr, and Apex Peak/Volcano.  For DACs, we had the PS Audio DL III, MHDT Havana Balanced, and Promitheus NOS DAC.  I find that at this level we are splitting hairs in deciding which we like better, and a lot of preference.  I prefered my Leben and Apex P/V, but I kind of felt that the Apache was right there with them.  The Lyr is a great amp that can definitely hold its own at its price.  I think the Leben has the best balance of lush sound and overall neutrality, where as the Apex P/V has a little more neutrality, just a little less lush than the Leben.  Comparing the Apache and P/V depending on the tube it was really close, but I still preferred the P/V, you are able to get just a hair more harmonic "rightness" as Dead Ears would say, than the Apache, which is really a phenomenal amplifier.  For those who do or don't like the Lyr, it was meant to be heard with Mullard 6DJ8s or CV2492 from the 60's period.  Overall I would say the Leben is still my favorite amplifier, but he P/V is probably my close second or even tied.


----------



## RedBull

Wedge, have you heard V200 or Phoenix with LCD-2?


----------



## KingStyles

Quote: 





> I find that at this level we are splitting hairs in deciding which we like better, and a lot of preference.


 
  That is usually what the difference is in amps once a certain level is achieved.


----------



## Wedge

Sorry I have not.
  
  Quote: 





redbull said:


> Wedge, have you heard V200 or Phoenix with LCD-2?


----------



## kingmajix

I'm thinking of going from my current Denon D7000s to the Audeze LCD-2 and I have a K.I.C.A.S. Caliente Amp. Would that be sufficient to drive the Audeze?


----------



## brasewel

Had a great time at Wedge's place comparing the 4 amps. I thought the Leben had the edge when it came to musicality and enjoyment while the Apache and P/V were pretty [size=inherit][size=inherit]indistinguishable with the Balanced Havana used as a source. At this level, it's pretty much a matter of preference and all 3 amps did a stellar job of amping the LCD-2. The Lyr responded very well when fitted with a set of Mullard 6DJ8s and gave the heavyweights a run for their money.[/size][/size]


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





kingmajix said:


> I'm thinking of going from my current Denon D7000s to the Audeze LCD-2 and I have a K.I.C.A.S. Caliente Amp. Would that be sufficient to drive the Audeze?


 

 I have the Caliente and it is sufficient to drive them.


----------



## grokit

What did you think of the balanced Havana *brasewel*?


----------



## RedBull

Quote: 





wedge said:


> Sorry I have not.


 

 Thanks for your good impression tho, it's very helpful.


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





grokit said:


> What did you think of the balanced Havana *brasewel*?


 

 I loved it and it gave my setup the flavor I was looking for. When using the Promitheus Dac, my setup sounded a little harsh and details would hit you right in the face. The Havana mellowed out the music and gave it a lushness that is associated with tube setups. We couldn't really tell the difference between the Peak P/V and the Apache when the Havana was driving them.
   
  I thought the Apache sounded incredible when paired with it and it probably pairs really well with solid state amps. I was impressed and wanted to purchase his dac before I left 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.
   
  We used a PS Audio III as well for comparison and it did not mate well with the Apache. It was definitely a better match for the Leben and Lyr.
   
  It's basically a no-brainer to get that dac if you have a balanced solid-state setup. If you have a tube setup, it may be overly lush for your tastes.


----------



## LiqTenExp

Ok so last night Wedge, Brasewel, and myself had the opportunity to compare the Apex P/V, Leben 300XS, RSA Apache, and Schiit Lyr.  We had the MHDT Havana (balanced version), PSA Audio Digital Link III, Promitheus NOS DAC, Yulong D100, and LD DAC_I to pair them with.
   
  Check out my comparison of the 4 DACs with the Lyr a little later in this post.  One thing to point out is that I did this first and decided the LD DAC_I and Yulong D100 were not up to par with the Prometheus, PSA and MHDT.
   
  Oh and we all own LCD-2 so it worked out great for comparison purposes.  Brasewel and I even have the same LCD-2 cables (Norse 4 conductor).
   
  To sum it up from my point of view....
   

 Apache with Havana was a killer combo, the Prometheus was just a little too cold sounding with it and the lushness of the Havana brought that combo to an exciting new level.
 Apache with PSA Audio was too precise, too refined, not as musical sounding.  Not a good combo.
 Apache with the Prometheus is somewhere in between but closer to the PSA Audio sound.
   

 Apache vs. Lyr got really close sounding when the Lyr was tubed with ECC88 Mullard.  I believe at first we were using the Prometheus but might have switched to the Havana later.  Tough call on this one.
 Apache vs. Apex P/V was a close one.  I thought they both had their own positive points.  I didn't hear anything I didn't like.  I liked how the Apache sounded with drums and the Apex P/V with piano.  I was using LTE Paradigm Shift and State of Grace for comparison songs.  We were using the Havana when comparing these two.
 Apache vs. Leben,  I didn't spend enough time comparing these two so I will let Brasewel and Wedge describe this comparison.
 
 Apex P/V vs. Leben, I liked the Apex P/V combo better when using the Havana.  The Leben is just too laid back/lush sounding for me.  I am definitely a Hybrid amp fan.  I forget what tubes we rolled through the P/V but I am sure Wedge will pipe in with them.
   
  I got a chance to try the LYR with 4 DACs last night:
   

 LD DAC_I
 Yulong D100
 PSA Audio Digital Link III
 MHDT Havana (balanced version)
   
  Hands down the PSA Audio Digital Link III was much more revealing than the Yulong and LD.  There was no questioning its superiority.  The Havana and PSA are both nice but I think the tube selection (Mullard) of the Lyr lead me to liking the PSA Audio.  I am a fan of precision but not at the cost of musicality.  The PSA Audio and Lyr (Mullard tubed) was killer.  I plan on picking up the upcoming Schiit DAC(s) and comparing them to the PSA Audio.  Wedge is lucky I didn't smuggle the PSA out of his house last night, that is how much I liked it!
   
  The LD and Yulong were so close that I would only spend the money on the Yulong if you were looking for a headphone amp and a nice entry level DAC combo.  The headphone amp internal to the Yulong D100 is surprisingly good for the money and can handle 600 ohm phones (DT990-600 for instance).
   
  The MHDT Havana is definite go to for someone with a high end pure solid state headphone amp that wants a more musical/lush sound.  I think we all agreed upon that last night.
   
  Now for some pictures...


----------



## brasewel

Awesome pics. It looks like I'm wasted on the music


----------



## sphinxvc

^ Awesome guys!  
   
  I'm really curious whether the Lyr vs. Apache was as close as a call w/ the PS DL III as it was with the Havana as the DAC.
   
  Great little impromptu minimeet.  Too bad that WA22 left before this one started!


----------



## Wedge

I think you meant to say ECC88 instead of ECC85.
   
  In the P/V I used Mullard ECC32, Marconi Osram B65, Fivre 6SN7GT.  I like all of them and they all sound a little bit different.  
   
  Comment, I will make here is that I listen to my music at a much lower volume than both Brasewel and LiqTenExp.  The Leben is a cut above the Apache IMO, the Apache can certainly go higher in volume without distortion than the Leben can, but I listen to the Leben around 9-10 o'clock, very rarely above that.  I just find the Leben's presentation the perfect blend mix.
   
  My conclusion is that I am happy with what I have as far as amplifiers go, and all I am really looking for at this point is to get a non NOS DAC besides the PS DL III, which I am considering the Bel Canto e.One 3.5, or Wyred 4 Sound DAC-2, as well as the upcoming Schiit DACs.


----------



## LiqTenExp

fixed!  8 5 whatever.  Too close on the # pad!


----------



## LiqTenExp

Quote: 





sphinxvc said:


> ^ Awesome guys!
> 
> I'm really curious whether the Lyr vs. Apache was as close as a call w/ the PS DL III as it was with the Havana as the DAC.
> 
> Great little impromptu minimeet.  Too bad that WA22 left before this one started!


 


  Apache with PSA DL III is a no go, way to precise, articulate, machine like.  The PSA pairs with hybrids and pure tubes amps to my ears.  PSA with a pure solid state amp like the Apache didn't sound right to Brasewel or myself.  I don't know if Wedge heard that combo.
   
  PSA with Lyr to me was the best I've ever heard the Lyr sound, totally blew the LD DAC_I and Yulong D100 out of the water.


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





liqtenexp said:


> Apache with PSA DL III is a no go, way to precise, articulate, machine like.  The PSA pairs with hybrids and pure tubes amps to my ears.  PSA with a pure solid state amp like the Apache didn't sound right to Brasewel or myself.  I don't know if Wedge heard that combo.
> 
> PSA with Lyr to me was the best I've ever heard the Lyr sound, totally blew the LD DAC_I and Yulong D100 out of the water.


 

 Agreed. I think we all came to the conclusion that you need a tube somewhere along the chain to mellow out the music. LiqTen and myself preferred the Hybrid sound (P/V, Apache w/ Havana and the Lyr) to a full blown tube setup like the Leben while Wedge preferred the Leben and his WA-5.


----------



## LiqTenExp

Let's twist things up a bit... I have a LD MKVI+ in the mail.
   
  It will be tubed with Tungsol VT229 black glass and the stock JAN GE power tubes.  I may borrow a set of Tungsol 5998 from Wedge to try them out.  No one has mentioned this amp in this thread so I figured someone had to bite the bullet. LOL


----------



## DeadEars

Quote: 





brasewel said:


> Awesome pics. It looks like I'm wasted on the music


 


  I still like the picture of you with the R10's from the NJ meet.  Nice to meet a guy who loves music that much 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Sounds like you guys had a really good time.  I'm not surprised that the Havana DAC did well with your system.  I would have recommended that over buying a new amp.  As I mentioned, I thought your system kicked some serious butt.  Sounds like others like it as well.  Hopefully you're not ready to run out and buy a Peak Volcano now?  I think you should enjoy and build on what you've already accomplished!
   
  What's cool is that each of you guys had assembled systems that worked very well with different combinations of equipment.  There seemed to be a lot of winners in that group, as well as a few also-rans.  I guess I wasn't much of a believer in the Promitheus DAC, especially since the crap DAC in my Touch sounded so good over your system.  Sounds like that's where you should be looking next.
   
  I've got to hear the Lyr again with some decent tubes.  The one I heard with stock tubes didn't impress, and I kinda wrote it off.  Nice learning!
   
  Best,


----------



## LiqTenExp

Yeah I think Brasewel just about offered to buy Wedge's Havana on the spot.  Too bad Wedge just got it and likes it LOL.


----------



## Wedge

Maybe, I should sell you the PS Audio and Brasewel the Havana, and go buy the Audio By Van Alstine.  I keep eyeing it up, but man, I just got a buncha tubes for the Havana.  Although I'm sure Brasewel would buy the tubes.  Hmmm, thinking now.


----------



## brasewel

Frank I think the Havana Dac is going to be my last major purchase. It provided that soothing flavor that was missing in my system. Vocals seems a lot more mellow, the bass was smoothened out, it was just incredible. After listening to some really high-end tube setups I now know that I prefer a mixture of SS and tube sound and the Havana does just that without breaking the bank. A pure SS system such as the Apache with the PS Audio sounded too detailed and unnatural to me.


----------



## LiqTenExp

Sounds like a deal Wedge!
   
  I'll unload the tubes for you!


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





wedge said:


> Maybe, I should sell you the PS Audio and Brasewel the Havana, and go buy the Audio By Van Alstine.  I keep eyeing it up, but man, I just got a buncha tubes for the Havana.  Although I'm sure Brasewel would buy the tubes.  Hmmm, thinking now.


 

 Hell yes I would 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, especially the ones that you had in the Havana


----------



## Skylab

Looks like a rip-roaring good time you guys had! Lots of great gear there. Very cool!


----------



## Loevhagen

@ LiqTenExp: Cool mini meet, write up and nice pictures as well. 
   
  ----
   
  I sold my HD800 this weekend after having the LCD-2 a couple of months. Tough decision, but there´s some magic with the LCD-2. For now I use them on the Burson HA-160D and the Violectric V200. I´m having hard times deciding which one is actually the best as a total package.
   
  The Burson is a fantastic one-box-solution when it comes to the sound and it´s aesthetics. The V200, being flexible, sounds, like the Burson, a bit "warm", and I like that - even on the LCD-2.
   
  So, I guess I would recommend both of these on the LCD-2. Here´s the Australian:


----------



## SmallBucket

Ordered my LCD-2 and it's shipping on Monday. Currently I have an Audio-GD NFB-2 and a ACSS matching Audio-GD C-2.1 amp. My current HP is a D7000, while it does sound fantastic with the AMP/DAC combo I wanted to experience the LCD-2's. Is it safe to say I will have enough to power the LCD-2's to their potential? I do also have the Moon OPA's.
   
  Will the LCD's do ok with my SS setup or should I be looking at a Tube setup?
   
  Thanks..


----------



## oqvist

Quote: 





smallbucket said:


> Ordered my LCD-2 and it's shipping on Monday. Currently I have an Audio-GD NFB-2 and a ACSS matching Audio-GD C-2.1 amp. My current HP is a D7000, while it does sound fantastic with the AMP/DAC combo I wanted to experience the LCD-2's. Is it safe to say I will have enough to power the LCD-2's to their potential? I do also have the Moon OPA's.
> 
> Will the LCD's do ok with my SS setup or should I be looking at a Tube setup?
> 
> Thanks..


 


 Had my C-2.1 for a couple of weeks and it does great for the LCD-2 with the DAC19 and Ref9. I do preferr my receiver over it more often and not and perhaps also the GHP but have really spend most of the time with the C-2.1 and receiver as of late. C-2.1 is sometimes a bit to liquid which feels a bit unnatural at times but I am nitpicking like crazy. It´s actually quite similar to the GHP in character or lack thereof. Using ACSS or Earth OPAMP at the moment don´t have the Moon. Don´t want it anyway if it´s indeed softer and warmer.
   
  I do have the  Trafomator Head One don´t get that much play time anymore. It´s not quite as transparent or neutral as my solid states though it surely has it qualities and is a superb second flavour particularly for crap recordings.
   
  As for power I have hard time sensing any real difference. I am quite sure the C-2.1 have more oomph then the GHP and noway near the wattage of my "65W" receiver.


----------



## Dreaming Of A Better ...

Quote: 





loevhagen said:


> @ LiqTenExp: Cool mini meet, write up and nice pictures as well.
> 
> ----
> 
> ...


 


   
  i was about to ask about ha-160D vs V200, your post made me v happy 
   
  and on a slightly unrelated note -  i'll join the LCD-2 club on Wednesday, can't wait !


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





smallbucket said:


> Ordered my LCD-2 and it's shipping on Monday. Currently I have an Audio-GD NFB-2 and a ACSS matching Audio-GD C-2.1 amp. My current HP is a D7000, while it does sound fantastic with the AMP/DAC combo I wanted to experience the LCD-2's. Is it safe to say I will have enough to power the LCD-2's to their potential? I do also have the Moon OPA's.
> 
> Will the LCD's do ok with my SS setup or should I be looking at a Tube setup?
> 
> Thanks..


 

 The LCD-2 will do just fine with a SS setup. We were debating tube or SS at the prices we were paying although I prefer them with tube and SS in the chain.


----------



## jax

Quote: 





loevhagen said:


> @ LiqTenExp: Cool mini meet, write up and nice pictures as well.
> 
> ----
> 
> ...


 


  In comparing the two, are you using the same DAC (the one in the Burson, assuming it has a line out), or are you using a different DAC for the V200, or the one that Violectric offers as an option in that amp?  I ask because the Violectric optional USB DAC stage occurs to me as more of a convenience afterthought and I've not heard it discussed with high regard, whereas the DAC in the Burson seems like it has a much better implementation and is regarded quite highly in reviews and comments here.  I don't know if it's the translation, but in the Violectric FAQ it also doesn't come off as anything they're boasting about.
   
   
  Quote: 





> With these parameters, the achievable quality conforms the 16-bit CD standard, but is somewhat worse than the overall analog performance of the HPA V200.


----------



## Permagrin

jax said:


> In comparing the two, are you using the same DAC (the one in the Burson, assuming it has a line out), or are you using a different DAC for the V200, or the one that Violectric offers as an option in that amp?  I ask because the Violectric optional USB DAC stage occurs to me as more of a convenience afterthought and I've not heard it discussed with high regard, whereas the DAC in the Burson seems like it has a much better implementation and is regarded quite highly in reviews and comments here.  I don't know if it's the translation, but in the Violectric FAQ it also doesn't come off as anything they're boasting about.




Yeah definitely not a reasonable comparison. I would imagine the Burson as DAC to the Violectric sounds amazing though!


----------



## WarriorAnt

I was on the fence but I fell off to one side and made up my mind tonight.  I was leaning heavily towards tubes but now I'm going for sure with the V200.   I was lurking about in a tube amp forum and there was too much talk about tubes blowing and all that and I realized I no longer have the fortitude or the passion for the care and feeding of a tube amp.  So solid state it is.  Was hoping for a used Peak Apex/Volcano because of it's hybrid makeup and the fact that it only has one tube but can only justify one if I found one used.  As it turns out you cannot pry a used Peak Apex/Volcano even from the dead hands of its owner.  So now I'm just waiting to hear back on the availability of the V200.


----------



## brasewel

Warrior why don't you get a setup like mine, SS amp with a tube dac. With the Havana, it was practically identical to the P/V which I presume is what you're looking for.


----------



## oqvist

I must say my tube amp do the tube stuff a lot better then the V200 or any other solid state amp I tried if that would be the goal. The V200 is not at all the same as the Trafomator Head One even though they are both warm.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





brasewel said:


> Warrior why don't you get a setup like mine, SS amp with a tube dac. With the Havana, it was practically identical to the P/V which I presume is what you're looking for.


 

 I already have the Wyred4Sound DAC-2 so another DAC is out of the question.  I would love to have that RSA Apache though you lucky Brick City Grad!


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





oqvist said:


> I must say my tube amp do the tube stuff a lot better then the V200 or any other solid state amp I tried if that would be the goal. The V200 is not at all the same as the Trafomator Head One even though they are both warm.


 

  
  The sirens of the glass bottles lured hard and long but I realized I simply do not have what it takes to endure their pleasures. The one tube in the PA/V was about all I could possibly deal with.  I considered many amps though.  The Mini Torii both as a headphone amp and a speaker amp.  The Zen Taboo, but it is not clear to me if I would also need the ZSTAGE to help power it with the LCD's.  I considered the Woo WA2 for what folks say has a wide soundstage something I'm very interested in.  I was considering the WA22 also but in the end I simply do not have the interest in learning the characteristics of so many different tubes and how they may better or worsen any given amps character.


----------



## olor1n

Wow, the previous page was pornographic. Great photos and impressions. Thanks for sharing!


----------



## Loevhagen

Quote: 





jax said:


> In comparing the two, are you using the same DAC (the one in the Burson, assuming it has a line out), or are you using a different DAC for the V200, or the one that Violectric offers as an option in that amp?  I ask because the Violectric optional USB DAC stage occurs to me as more of a convenience afterthought and I've not heard it discussed with high regard, whereas the DAC in the Burson seems like it has a much better implementation and is regarded quite highly in reviews and comments here.  I don't know if it's the translation, but in the Violectric FAQ it also doesn't come off as anything they're boasting about.


 
   

   
[size=8.5pt]When I compare headphone amplifiers in general, I use the Burson HA-160D as a DAC first in order to get an impression of the contestant in question. By doing so, the initial method should be acceptable.[/size]
   
[size=8.5pt]The Violectric HPA V200 (without the inboard DAC) is a bit on the “warm” side, and so is the 160D. This combination gives quite nice flow in the music for inter alia the Sennheiser HD800. On the LCD-2, _some _might find it a bit to “warm” when using the 160D as a DAC on the V200. I don't.[/size]
   
[size=8.5pt]I like “warm” sound (loving the Norwegian Abrahamsen / “Electrocompaniet” on my Klipsch RF-63 speakers), using other DACs than the 160D on the V200 to convey music to the LCD-2s are different:[/size]
   
[size=8.5pt]Yulong D100: The music is crisp and detailed, but not that engaging[/size]
[size=8.5pt]Hegel HD10: A better match than the D100 as it is quite neutral in my ears[/size]
[size=8.5pt]Rega Dac: Haven’t heard that one on the V200, but during a head-fi meet last week, we used the Rega DAC in Stax SRM-007tII / SR-007mkII. The Rega Dac was more exiting to listen to on that Stax system than the Hegel HD10. Maybe the Rega DAC will fit the LCD-2 on the V200? I wouldn’t be surprised at all if it does...[/size]
   
[size=8.5pt]As far as the Trafomatic Experience Head One (TEHO) goes: We had that amp on the same meet, and we tried several headphones on it. The best match, by far margin, was the Audio-Technica W1000. By far. The LCD-2 sounded very veiled on the Trafomatic. The sound was not exiting at all. We tried both the 160D as a DAC and the Yulong D100 as a DAC to the TEHO. The latter “lightens” the sound, but it does not create any good emotions in my ears.[/size]


----------



## WarriorAnt

Just placed an order for the V200.


----------



## fra107

I'm considering these amps for my LCD-2:
   
  Beta 22 by QES Labs (Full balanced)
  Shiit Lyr
  Violetric V200
   
  My actual amp is a Burson HA-160
   
  What i have to buy?
  Thanks


----------



## Wedge

You don't like your Burson?


----------



## Yoga

Quote:


loevhagen said:


> @ LiqTenExp: Cool mini meet, write up and nice pictures as well.
> 
> ----
> 
> ...


 

 Should be pulling the trigger on the 160D + LCD-2 combo this week, nice to hear :¬)


----------



## DeadEars

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> Just placed an order for the V200.


 


  Congratulations!  Sounds like you're finally settling on a combination that should give you years of great sound.  You'll have to let us know what you think of the combination with your W4S DAC and the LCD-2's.
   
  Best,


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





deadears said:


> Congratulations!  Sounds like you're finally settling on a combination that should give you years of great sound.  You'll have to let us know what you think of the combination with your W4S DAC and the LCD-2's.
> 
> Best,


 

 I'm interested as well. Would like to hear that DAC someday.


----------



## WarriorAnt

This will be the first real amp I'll be hearing the LCD's on so it will also be nice to hear what they can really do also.


----------



## fra107

Quote: 





fra107 said:


> I'm considering these amps for my LCD-2:
> 
> Beta 22 by QES Labs (Full balanced)
> Shiit Lyr
> ...


 


   


  Quote: 





wedge said:


> You don't like your Burson?


 


  Yes, i like it, but maybe it's  not enough for LCD-2?


----------



## Wedge

The three amps you listed are all at 3 very different price points, I would say its going to very hard to say.  I am only familiar with the Lyr, but I would say for the money it is a very good amp with the right tubes.


----------



## fra107

i would like to have a definitive amp, maybe the beta 22 can be it, but i never listened to it, just readed on it in various forums....help me pls


----------



## dagothur

So how would a Nuforce Icon HDP/Audeze LCD-2 combo sound?


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





fra107 said:


> i would like to have a definitive amp, maybe the beta 22 can be it, but i never listened to it, just readed on it in various forums....help me pls


 

 There's no such thing as a definitive amp. It all depends on what type of sound you prefer. If you go back a few pages, we compared 3 high-end amps and it's all about preference once you reach a certain level.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote: 





dagothur said:


> So how would a Nuforce Icon HDP/Audeze LCD-2 combo sound?


 

 Very good.  With the LCD-2 the HDP is only a little behind the DACmini, although adding a Sigma 11 to the HDP brings it up another notch with a more transparent signature and more 3D soundstage.  At that point it's much closer to the DACmini.  A stock HDP however is not nearly as good as the DACmini when you try to use the HD800.  I haven't tried the HD800 with HDP using the Sigma 11...


----------



## fra107

Quote: 





brasewel said:


> There's no such thing as a definitive amp. It all depends on what type of sound you prefer. If you go back a few pages, we compared 3 high-end amps and it's all about preference once you reach a certain level.


 


   
  Well, i love the LCD-2 type of sound (dark sound), i love rock music and i would like to take the best from my LCD-2, someone tell that LCD-2 needs a lot of power to do its best, that is what i want.
  I just tried LCD-2/Burson combo, i don't know if it's the best possible combo.
  I think LCD-2 will be in my home forever, and i would like the best amp to listen to.
  Suggestions?
  Thanks guys


----------



## brasewel

I don't think the LCD-2 is a dark sounding headphone but that's my opinion. What's your budget?


----------



## stuckonsound

I have not heard any of the Asus Xonar cards, but have you tried the Burson with a different source? I was under the impression that the Burson is a good solid state option.
   
  edit:This was intended for fra107


----------



## sphinxvc

Quote:


brasewel said:


> I don't think the LCD-2 is a dark sounding headphone but that's my opinion.


 
   
  As with the HD650s, I suspect brain burn-in helps with the LCD2s.
   
  Edit: 1,000th post.  Woot.


----------



## K3cT

Quote: 





fra107 said:


> Well, i love the LCD-2 type of sound (dark sound), i love rock music and i would like to take the best from my LCD-2, someone tell that LCD-2 needs a lot of power to do its best, that is what i want.
> I just tried LCD-2/Burson combo, i don't know if it's the best possible combo.
> I think LCD-2 will be in my home forever, and i would like the best amp to listen to.
> Suggestions?
> Thanks guys


 

  
  Beta22 is definitely brighter than the Burson and significantly clearer and faster sounding. Burson has a better PRaT mainly contributed from its enhanced bass response (slightly more than normal) while Beta22 extends more in both ends of the frequencies.


----------



## Permagrin

k3ct said:


> Beta22 is definitely brighter than the Burson and significantly clearer and faster sounding. Burson has a better PRaT mainly contributed from its enhanced bass response (slightly more than normal) while Beta22 extends more in both ends of the frequencies.




What source and DAC did you use in this comparison?

Thanks.


----------



## fra107

Quote: 





brasewel said:


> I don't think the LCD-2 is a dark sounding headphone but that's my opinion. What's your budget?


 


   Sorry, my english is not very good, but i love the LCD-2 type of sound (dark or not)
  I had HD800 and i prefer the Audeze
  My budget is about the price of the beta 22 (1200 euro)


  Quote: 





stuckonsound said:


> I have not heard any of the Asus Xonar cards, but have you tried the Burson with a different source? I was under the impression that the Burson is a good solid state option.
> 
> edit:This was intended for fra107


 


  No, i've not tried the burson with a different source.
  P.S. my xonar have 3 burson opamps installed


  Quote: 





k3ct said:


> Beta22 is definitely brighter than the Burson and significantly clearer and faster sounding. Burson has a better PRaT mainly contributed from its enhanced bass response (slightly more than normal) while Beta22 extends more in both ends of the frequencies.


 

  Sorry, what is "PRaT"?


----------



## KingStyles

Quote: 





> Sorry, what is "PRaT"?


 
  Pace Rhythm and Timing


----------



## n3rdling

Amps don't effect Prat (they aren't turntables) unless they are absolutely awful (worse than anything I've seen sold).  I'd say the B22 is the easy choice of those.


----------



## K3cT

Quote: 





permagrin said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


  The one time that I did a serious A/B between the two amplifiers I was using a CDP and If I remember right, it was an CEC TL51Z. However the Burson is a popular unit in our local headphone circle and usually turns up in local meets so I'm quite familiar with its sound signature.
   
  I rather like it actually for the LCD2 and I thought the amplifier represents a decent value. The combo unit doesn't impress me too much as the included DAC is so-so and any proper standalone unit should beat it handily.


----------



## brasewel

At your budget you're looking at a 3CH B22. I've listened to Ross' (Baka1969) B22 and found it to be a relatively warm amp with a sound signature very similar to the WA6SE. It should be better than the Burson in speed, dynamics, resolution etc. Look into the WA6SE as well if you prefer a tube sound.
   
  Quote:


sphinxvc said:


> Quote:
> 
> As with the HD650s, I suspect brain burn-in helps with the LCD2s.



   
  Brain burn-in definitely helps but I didn't think they were dark to begin with unless you are comparing them to a headphone like the DT990 or ED 10


----------



## Permagrin

k3ct said:


> The one time that I did a serious A/B between the two amplifiers I was using a CDP and If I remember right, it was an CEC TL51Z. However the Burson is a popular unit in our local headphone circle and usually turns up in local meets so I'm quite familiar with its sound signature.
> 
> I rather like it actually for the LCD2 and I thought the amplifier represents a decent value. The combo unit doesn't impress me too much as the included DAC is so-so and any proper standalone unit should beat it handily.




Thanks for the reply. I mainly inquired because you stated such significant differences and I find it hard to consider how much _better_ the LCD-2s could sound. If my headphone listening time increases I'll probably _upgrade_ to the V200. Right now my speakers are getting most of my listening time.


----------



## fra107

Quote: 





brasewel said:


> At your budget you're looking at a 3CH B22. I've listened to Ross' (Baka1969) B22 and found it to be a relatively warm amp with a sound signature very similar to the WA6SE. It should be better than the Burson in speed, dynamics, resolution etc. Look into the WA6SE as well if you prefer a tube sound.


 


  I'm talking about a 4CH beta 22, is it different in sound from 3CH?


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





fra107 said:


> I'm talking about a 4CH beta 22, is it different in sound from 3CH?


 

 I don't think you can find a 4CH B22 at your budget. I haven't heard a 4CH so I can't comment.


----------



## yossi126

If he finds a builder here and go minimal, it is very much possible.


----------



## K3cT

Quote: 





permagrin said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


  I'm not familiar with the V200 but I can assure you that there are better amplifiers than the Burson HA-160 out there but may I advise you to consider source upgrades too as it's equally, if not, more important than your amplifiers.
   
  And regarding the Beta22, I think I've read somewhere that a 4-channel version is supposed to be smoother sounding than the 2-channel but I'm not really sure since I haven't had the opportunity to A/B them side-by-side.


----------



## WarriorAnt

I considered the B22 for a while but eventually I had to remove it from my list of possibles.  For me all the info surrounding the amp was confusing.  You have to find a builder. 2ch, 3ch, 4ch.  Warranty service?  The  more questions I had the less I regarded the B22 as a possible amp no matter the sound.  There where just too many other amps as options to consider the B22 for me so I ruled it out.   I'll admit my low confidence is most likely completely unwarranted but I've gambled too much over the decades with audio equipment and most of the time I was on the short end of the gamble.


----------



## grokit

I agree, that if one is considering commissioning a 4-board b22 that one could look into a Liquid Fire, yes?


----------



## brasewel

I did not consider the 4CH B22 purely because of the possible problems that could arise without a reliable warranty service. I would rather pick an amp designed by a notable manufacturer that provides me with some form of warranty.

  
  Quote: 





grokit said:


> I agree, that if one is considering commissioning a 4-board b22 that one could look into a Liquid Fire, yes?


 

 Hmm not really. There are other amps in the $2k+ range that are fantastic. I haven't heard the Liquid Fire so it might be the runaway winner.


----------



## Halfsup

Hello,
   
  I have a question about the LCD2, do you think a NFB 12 (Audio GD) can decently drive this headphones ? I have no other amp.
   
  Thanks you very much
   
   
  Marc


----------



## oqvist

Yes that would be sufficient no doubt.


----------



## dagothur

NFB-12: 3.5 watts at 25 ohms.  It should be able to power the LCD-2 plenty well.
  Quote: 





halfsup said:


> Hello,
> 
> I have a question about the LCD2, do you think a NFB 12 (Audio GD) can decently drive this headphones ? I have no other amp.
> 
> ...


----------



## josteinr

Hi!
   
  So I guess this might have been answered before, but I have given up on reading through every page of this thread as it's constantly filling up with new posts, but here it goes 
   
  What is in your opinion the best DAC + AMP combination for the LCD-2's under $1000?
   
  I currently only have the uDac2 and can't for the life of me figure out what to pull the trigger on next. A better dac with a better integrated amplifier like the DacMini? Or maybe the Schiit Lyr with some other dac? Could really use some help here 
   
  I would like it to bring out more of the lows as well as control the highs a bit better than the uDac2 does now, also it wouldn't hurt me if it was a bit warmer - I don't do any analytic listening other than that I enjoy hearing all the details present in the original uncompressed track. The availability to test equipment like this where I live is ~0 sadly.
   
  I listen to a wide range of music, old punk and rock like The Clash well as newer Hiphop like Atmosphere etc. and also a lot of laid back female vocals like Mazzy Star, Cowboy Junkies and Cat Power.
   
  Thanks for any suggestions!


----------



## sachu

yes it has been answered..don't be lazy and search through the thread instead.


----------



## LiqTenExp

I have an NFB-12 and it easily drives the LCD-2.  plenty of headroom power wise.


----------



## LiqTenExp

enter a new competitor...more to come friday (on travel till then, sorry).  there are two NOS Tungsol VT229 driver tubes inside the paper towels next to the mouse.


----------



## brasewel

^^ Very nice. Looks like the WA-22


----------



## LiqTenExp

ok, well it is not new to the market but i haven't heard LCD-2 on one of them yet and figured it was worth a shot for the money.
   
  yeah close, no tube rectifier power supply on this one but it is push-pull so it has a bit more power than the wa22.  David from LD said it can do almost 10W into 50 ohms.  I am not familiar enough with the circuit design so I can't say that is right or wrong.


----------



## brasewel

Maybe a Lyr and Little Dot amp comparison in the future?


----------



## LiqTenExp

absolutely, let me spend a couple weeks tubing it up right and we can try that out.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





josteinr said:


> Hi!
> 
> So I guess this might have been answered before, but I have given up on reading through every page of this thread as it's constantly filling up with new posts, but here it goes
> 
> ...


 

 I would recommend you consider the Lyr for an amp and continue using the μDAC-2 until Schiit comes out with their entry level DAC.


----------



## Halfsup

Thanks for the answer Dagothur and Oqvist


----------



## TruBrew

So I have two amps for my LCD-2, and I only want to keep one. I have a Lyr I have been running for a while. I am trying to sell my HE-6 and don't necessarily need all that power anymore. I just bought a Pioneer SX-950 off eBay. It is nice, but definitely needs some work. I don't know if I should turn around and sell the Pioneer I just bought, or sell the Lyr and use the money to fix up the Pioneer. I think the Vintage amp looks awesome, plus has a tuner and phono stage should I ever buy a turntable. Also the Lyr is likely easier to sell, and much easier to ship. So, you can tell which way I am leaning. The only thing is I can't give them a fair comparison due to the 950 not being in proper functioning order. 
   
  I am just looking for some opinions.


----------



## Skylab

So you have to get the Pioneer fixed - it isn't in working condition?


----------



## DeadEars

Quote: 





trubrew said:


> So I have two amps for my LCD-2, and I only want to keep one. I have a Lyr I have been running for a while. I am trying to sell my HE-6 and don't necessarily need all that power anymore. I just bought a Pioneer SX-950 off eBay. It is nice, but definitely needs some work. I don't know if I should turn around and sell the Pioneer I just bought, or sell the Lyr and use the money to fix up the Pioneer. I think the Vintage amp looks awesome, plus has a tuner and phono stage should I ever buy a turntable. Also the Lyr is likely easier to sell, and much easier to ship. So, you can tell which way I am leaning. The only thing is I can't give them a fair comparison due to the 950 not being in proper functioning order.
> 
> I am just looking for some opinions.


 
   
  If it were me, I'd sell the Pioneer and use the money to buy a great set of NOS tubes for the Lyr.  It's not the same amp with the stock tubes (you probably already know this).  But with the right tubes it's quite nice with the LCD-2's.


----------



## oqvist

Would rather spend the money on repairing the pioneer. Then you know which one to sell at least.


----------



## TruBrew

The pioneer runs, but there are a few problems. Sometimes the right channel cuts out. If you adjust the volume it comes back on, but give is 20 seconds and its gone again. Also adjusting the volume can sometimes cause a static sound. I should probably get it fixed regardless. I would probably make most of that money back on resale if I decide to.


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





trubrew said:


> The pioneer runs, but there are a few problems. Sometimes the right channel cuts out. If you adjust the volume it comes back on, but give is 20 seconds and its gone again. Also adjusting the volume can sometimes cause a static sound. I should probably get it fixed regardless. I would probably make most of that money back on resale if I decide to.


 

 That is very likely just that the volume control needs a serious de-oxit bath


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





skylab said:


> That is very likely just that the volume control needs a serious de-oxit bath


 

 I second this. I had this very same problem with my KICAS amp where the right channel kept cutting out. Turned out the volume pot was shot.


----------



## DeadEars

The Pioneer (and most SS amps from the 70's) probably could also use new power supply capacitors, in addition to cleaning all the controls.  The electrolytics have a finite lifespan that expired more than 10-15 years ago!  It's a testament to the amp "arms race" of the time that the Japanese manufacturers used fairly high quality components, but even they are past their "sell by" dates.
   
  I'm just sayin' 
   
  You could slap a bandaid on it, but that doesn't mean you've addressed other things that will go wrong.
   
  best,
   
  Frank


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





trubrew said:


> The pioneer runs, but there are a few problems. Sometimes the right channel cuts out. If you adjust the volume it comes back on, but give is 20 seconds and its gone again. Also adjusting the volume can sometimes cause a static sound. I should probably get it fixed regardless. I would probably make most of that money back on resale if I decide to.


 


  I would think its a solder connection because the SX980 did that and thats what it was. He also cleaned everything and it eliminated the cut off. I only have the SX650 left and that one seems to run good no cutoff and I have done nothing with it. Find someone who knows them locally and make sure he knows them or you will end up with more regret. If it cost you 150.00 to clean and get it right you will be rewarded they are great receivers. I only need one for my speakers and headphones so I sold the other two i had and they went fast.


----------



## edvardd

I started a thread about portable amps for LCD2. Check it out if you are interested or have some suggestions. It's here


----------



## LiqTenExp

Well the MKVI+ was DOA.  It is going back to get fixed.  just my luck.  Luckily LD is pretty good with handling returns and covering shipping costs within the first 30 days.


----------



## brasewel

Awww that's horrible. I've only received a DOA once and it's really annoying to wait. Hope you get it fixed soon.


----------



## TruBrew

Quote: 





frank i said:


> I would think its a solder connection because the SX980 did that and thats what it was. He also cleaned everything and it eliminated the cut off. I only have the SX650 left and that one seems to run good no cutoff and I have done nothing with it. Find someone who knows them locally and make sure he knows them or you will end up with more regret. If it cost you 150.00 to clean and get it right you will be rewarded they are great receivers. I only need one for my speakers and headphones so I sold the other two i had and they went fast.


 


  How much money do you think it is worth to spend on the 950? I payed $250 shipped. Should I just have it cleaned and replace a few shot caps, and spend say $150 like you eluded to, or do I give it a complete overhall and spend something close to $500. Maybe this is a question for the vintage receiver forum, and if I don't get much input here I will ask again over there. What I mean is it worth $750 for a SX-950 in pristine condition. I could buy a SX-1250 for that. Of course it would also need a cleaning and possibly a repair or two.


----------



## fra107

Quote: 





brasewel said:


> I don't think you can find a 4CH B22 at your budget. I haven't heard a 4CH so I can't comment.


 


  Well, i found a builder that can make a 4ch beta 22 with xlr and rca input and xlr and jack heaphone output for 1270 euro, i'm considering to buy it....


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





fra107 said:


> Well, i found a builder that can make a 4ch beta 22 with xlr and rca input and xlr and jack heaphone output for 1270 euro, i'm considering to buy it....


 

 Go for it. It should be a great amp.


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





trubrew said:


> How much money do you think it is worth to spend on the 950? I payed $250 shipped. Should I just have it cleaned and replace a few shot caps, and spend say $150 like you eluded to, or do I give it a complete overhall and spend something close to $500. Maybe this is a question for the vintage receiver forum, and if I don't get much input here I will ask again over there. What I mean is it worth $750 for a SX-950 in pristine condition. I could buy a SX-1250 for that. Of course it would also need a cleaning and possibly a repair or two.


 

 The SX-1250 will always have the higher resale value.  And you can buy a recently serviced/cleaned SX-1250 for $600.  Given that, I am not sure spending $500 to overhaul a 950 makes sense from a RESALE perspective.
   
  However, if you like the 950, and plan to keep it, then I would say go for it - a fully overhauled 950 will be a fine, fine piece of kit.


----------



## jax

I had a Pioneer when I was a teenager of the same vintage you're discussing.  My dad later took it over when I moved up and it was used by him for decades and still worked last time I checked, except for a few of the bulbs in the display.  As a speaker amp it actually still sounded pretty good out of the same pair of classic Advent speakers I'd originally used with it (a bit worse for wear, them).  It wasn't heavy metal, just one of the low-power versions (about 20W as I recall).  The appearance never really appealed to me, even back then.  What's the sound signature like on the headphone output of the 70's/80's receivers you guys are using.  I'm curious about what is compelling about having a large, 50-70 lb, butt ugly reminder of an era I'd personally much rather forget visually, where the bulk of the large amount of visual space it takes up is devoted to a useless FM tuner (unless you happen to be lucky enough to be in one of the very few metro areas that actually still has a decent FM station)? No offense, just my personal take on it...obviously it's not for me. But I am curious why would someone would drop $700 on a huge, heavy box with aging components, to push their LCD-2 when one could spend the same money on a (far more clean, compact and light, purpose-designed) Meier, a Burson, or a Lyr with better tubes?  Is there actually a unique sonic advantage, or is it just nostalgia?


----------



## Skylab

The inverse way to look at it of course is that for the same price as a Lyr, you can get a device that will drive the LCD-2 well, and will ALSO drive speakers, provides an terrific FM tuner, and a very nice phono preamp, all for the same price!  Yes, takes up more space, but potentially delivers many more benefits.  Now, if those benefits are not useful, then perhaps the extra size will be a big disadvantage.
   
  The sound signature on my Pioneers is very neutral.  And as much as I liked the Meier Concerto, I felt that with the LCD-2, the headphone amp of my SX-1250 was actually better, probably due largely to delivering more power and thus more headroom and a greater sense of dynamic ease.  I paid $500 for the SX-1250; the Concerto was more expensive.  And I DO use it to drive speakers, and sometimes listen to both the preamp and the phono stage 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Anyway, a vintage receiver is FOR SURE NOT the right choice for everyone, or even most people, but it CAN be a good alternative.
   
  And I also LOVE the look!
   


   
  (admittedly those pics are my more expensive SX-1980, but the look of the less expensive receivers is very similar)


----------



## mhamel

+1 on loving the look - but yes, it's really a subjective thing.
   
  I've been into audio gear since I was around 10 years old, which was in 1981.  As much as I like new gear and the technology that goes into it, I'll always have a soft spot for the gear that got me into this hobby.   It's definitely not for everyone, but personally, there's something very satisfying about the feel of the switches and knobs on well-built vintage gear, more than hitting a rubber button on a remote.  I like the warm look of the lighting, and the look of analog meters.
   
  As for sound, I can't really speak for past gear since it's been so long, but the Pioneer SA-9100 integrated amp I picked up this week sounds great.  I find it to be fairly neutral, maybe just slightly bright.   Compared to my Lyr (with early 60s Mullard 6DJ8s), the SA-9100 has slightly leaner bass (just as extended, just not as full), slightly sharper/more detailed (but not harsh) highs and mids that are a bit more forward.  Considering the sound signature of the Mullards, which are warm and tube-y, it's exactly what I would expect a more neutral, solid-state amplifier to sound like.  I don't necessarily find it better, or worse... just different.   I've also been playing around with using the Lyr as a
   
  When I ordered my Norse LCD-2 cable, I had ordered a second one, un-terminated, thinking I'd use them with speaker taps out of something like this, but I probably should have waited, I can't see wanting or needing any more power than there already is out of the headphone jack.  I may try it just to see how things sound without the resistor in the circuit, but I'm guessing it would only be a slight improvement if at all.
   
         -Mike


----------



## stuckonsound

I'm adding another recommendation for the Burson amps. The HA-160D has transformed the LCD-2 for me. I was contemplating selling the LCD-2, and keeping my HE-5LE. On the Burson the LCD-2 is everything I hoped it would be. The congestion and issues I had with it's soundstage are completely gone. It sounds wonderfully transparent and detailed on this amp. This amp is in a different league compared to the Asgard and HDP.


----------



## Dreaming Of A Better ...

i love the LCD-2 & HA-160D combo as well, now that i found my audio nirvana i can finally spend more time listening to music (rather than browsing head-fi all the time)


----------



## SHAHZADA123

I received the Headroom Ultra Amp/Dac today and its absolutely fantastic with the LCD-2s.
  Great detail,speed, and transperancy and loads of power. Excellent dynamics and the Bass is just terrific.
  The best part is that, although SS, it has an uncanny tube-like warmth.


----------



## dagothur

Quote: 





stuckonsound said:


> This amp is in a different league compared to the Asgard and HDP.


 
  1.  For ~five and 2.5x the price, respectively.
 2. The Asgard is a stand-alone amp, and the Nuforce is not made for power-hungry headphones.  Comfortable listening level for me, at 600 ohms, is about 1 or 2 o'clock.
  With those two things in mind, the Burson _better_ be superior to my Nuforce or the Asgard powering an orthodynamic headphone.


----------



## stuckonsound

Quote: 





dagothur said:


> 1.  For ~five and 2.5x the price, respectively.
> 2. The Asgard is a stand-alone amp, and the Nuforce is not made for power-hungry headphones.  Comfortable listening level for me, at 600 ohms, is about 1 or 2 o'clock.
> With those two things in mind, the Burson _better_ be superior to my Nuforce or the Asgard powering an orthodynamic headphone.


 
  The HDP is very good for what it is. I was just surprised at the difference. Most of my experience moving up the chain has been subtle but tangible differences. When comparing the HDP as both amp and DAC versus running the HDP as DAC with the Burson doing amp duty, the differences were not subtle. Up to this point, if you ask me if the HDP was a better amp or a better DAC, I would not have been certain. At this point I feel confident in saying the DAC of the HDP is the more superior of it's two components.


----------



## dagothur

Quote: 





stuckonsound said:


> At this point I feel confident in saying the DAC of the HDP is the more superior of it's two components.


 
  I agree.  When I get the LCD-2, unless it sounds absolutely phenomenal out of the Nuforce alone, I'm getting a Lyr to power it.


----------



## brasewel

dagothur said:


> I agree.  When I get the LCD-2, unless it sounds absolutely phenomenal out of the Nuforce alone, I'm getting a Lyr to power it.




Make sure you get the right tubes. The Lyr is not really good with the stock tubes especially when paired with the LCD-2.


----------



## Wedge

Those are some pretty strong words.  I didn't really think it was useless.  I liked it more with some good tubes, but oh well.  I have had some pretty lengthy discussions with kwkarth about the Lyr and he really likes the LCD-2 with the stock tubes, from my own brief personal experience, I didn't hate it, just thought it sounded better with some "better" tubes.  I think your ears just might be spoiled by that RSA Apache you have.


----------



## dagothur

Quote: 





brasewel said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Then what tubes should I get for it to maximize its LCD-2 synergistic potential?


----------



## Wedge

There is a whole thread on tube rolling for the Schiit Lyr.  I will say it will all come down to personal preference here, and you should probably listen to the Lyr with the stock tubes first and decide what you like about it, and dislike about it, before going and hording a bunch of tubes.  Unless that is what you want to do.


----------



## brasewel

Wedge I was totally unimpressed with the stock tubes and no haha I was not comparing it to my rig. With the tubes we had the other day I was amazed how good it sounded. Useless was a bit too intense, I take that back.


----------



## jeust0999

He said it was *not* "_really good_" with stock tubes. He did not say it was _"useless"_, either.


----------



## Wedge

He edited his post after I posted.
  
  Quote: 





jeust0999 said:


> He said it was *not* "_really good_" with stock tubes. He did not say it was _"useless"_, either.


----------



## jeust0999

Oh okay, sorry wedge.


----------



## franklyshankly

So after reading this whole thread today, I still have some pretty basic questions. I'm a total noob, and I apologize for that but I am learning ... slowly. I've got the bug big time, I've moved from IEMs to closed cans to HD650s and I've decided to just go for broke (literally, har har) and sell a bunch of stuff and get the LCD2s. I really like the 650s rich, warm tone, laid back yet full of detail, but I found them to be difficult to really drive to their full potential, so instead of spending $2000 on an amp for them, I've decided to get the LCD2 and spend $1000 on DAC and amp. I hope this is the right decision.
   
  After reading this thread is seems clear that they are NOT the pickiest headphones, which is great news, but it still doesnt seem to prevent people from splitting fine hairs (myself included), which brings me to my question. Since my DAC/amp budget is fairly limited, I'm wondering how best to spend it. Part of me wants to blow it all on a really nice amp (especially interested in the Violectric V200, which seems to get quite a bit of praise) but this leaves me very little for a DAC. btw, I'm using the Pure i-20 doc with ipod touch. My main question is, should I get the nice amp/budget DAC and save for better DAC or get really mid level amp and mid level DAC (of course "mid" is relative, I realize my "mid" will be someones "low" ... for me mid is $500-600).
   
  I think I want to go with solid state mostly because tube rolling seems like a deadly hobby for someone like me, i.e., it would NEVER end. I want this search to end, at least temporarily.
   
  The Burson and Violectric seem to come up the most throughout this thread, not including DIY amps and tubes, so I guess I'm trying to decide between these. I poster a few pages back said they are both great and it comes down to preference. Is this true? Since I can't audition, and since my budget is limited, if I can save $200 to put towards a DAC, then the Burson seems like the natural choice. I'm drawn to the V200 for some crazy reason, but if they are both equally capable of driving the LCD2s with authority, then I'd get the Burson.
   
  My experience with the 650s on the KICAS amp has me somewhat wary of headphone amps versus big receivers, and I'm intrigued by the talk of powering LCDs with big old vintage Yamaha receivers. In my **VERY** limited experience, my Rotel stereo receiver powered my 650s WAAAAAAY better than my KICAS amp. The sound was more effortless, more dynamic, the bass was MUCH better (partly influenced by bass EQ I'm sure), and could be driven much louder, and with more smoothness intact. The problem is I know NOTHING about vintage amps. Would the Burson and Violectric disappoint like the KICAS? Would they do as good a job as a vintage speaker amp?
   
  To make my questions clear:
  1) is DAC important enough that I should forgo the V200 (or some comparably priced amp) to be able to spend more on DAC ($900/$100 versus ~$500/$500), or would the Violeltric or Burson be good enough even with a budget DAC?
   
  2) should I consider the vintage amps? are they that much better than something like the Burson or Violectric? are they worth the trouble of finding and fiddling with to get them ready for headphone use? Should a noob consider this option, or would the headamps be good enough to make the LCD2s sing?
   
  Sorry for the rambling, my brain is SCRAMBLED after reading through everything.
   
  Also, really quick just to give some of my preferences for music and sound: I like ALL kinds of music but tend to listen to lots of singer songwriter stuff, electro, classic rock, and some modern classical and indie rock. For sound, I really want an amp and DAC that will have a totaly black background, be able to power the phones effortlessly, with clear commanding bass, FULL RICH DYNAMIC sound, withouth ever feeling strained or overly muddy, but without ever sounding thin or "polite". The Burson and Violetric *sound* very good, as do some tube amps that are way out of my price range, but I'm wary of descriptions after being so let down with the KICAS.


----------



## franklyshankly

forgot to say THANKS!!


----------



## grokit

Re the Burson and Violectric, I would opt for the built-in dac options rather than getting a separate budget dac, then you could upgrade to a better dac later if you want and your amp would have a higher resale value. They are both in a different league than the Kicas and will drive the LCD-2 fine and you won't have to mess with selling anything. From what I have read the Violectric is a little more laid back.
   
  Vintage amps can be potentially more rewarding and versatile, but they can also be more challenging due to their age. I would say that for the LCD-2 it's not necessary (HE series is a different story), but if you're ready for repair expenses (time and $ depending on ability) and want to: listen to fm radio, run a turntable, and attach speakers as well as listen to computer music with headphones then you may want to do more research on vintage amps/receivers.


----------



## Wedge

Personally I think the DAC in the Pure i-20 dock is not all that great.  If that is what you were planning on using, then I would say you would be better served by finding a better combo of amp/DAC.  Really just my opinion.  I've heard some grumblings on the DAC mini from CEtrance being a pretty good option.  Audio-gd makes some pretty inexpensive DACs that atleast to me sound pretty good for the money, these also include a headphone amp built in.  Schiit audio is releasing a DAC and they already have a pretty good amplifier on the market, the Lyr (the only one I have heard), but I'm told their other amps sound quite good.


----------



## jeust0999

The kicas amp is a _very smooth_ amp, the power is there if you're not afraid to turn it up. I find the best part of the kicas to be the mids, which happens to by my priority in sound. I also like the deep, deep bass it extracts and its soothing highs. I first used a pioneer stereo receiver for my headphones, when I got my first dedicated headphone amp I immediately noticed how much more relaxed the kicas presented the music. The kicas caliente has the *exact* sound signature I was looking for, therefore I absolutely adore this little amp.
   
  When I let others hear my gear, the first thing they say is to "turn it up", or make a comment on how much you have to turn the volume knob. I personally find the gain on the amp a huge plus!
   
   
   
   
  My opinion is that the kicas's flavor is not the one you were expecting. Having said that, an amp that is very well-regarded for the LCD2's by Skylab is the Meier Concerto. And this is an excerpt from a post by another head-fi'er on Skylab's review:
   
  "Before the Concerto I had the Purity Audio KICAS, a good amp by all means, but I quickly realized it just wasn't for me. It did best with my HE-5LE, mainly because the strongest point of the KICAS is the mids, and the HE-5LE has really smooth, rich mids. But it wasn't my idea of a fun amp, and that's a big detraction in my book, because a lot of my music, techno and rock being the bulk of it, hinge on being fun to listen to. The KICAS is too laid back for me, too polite. It's got very nice soundstage, VERY deep bass (as deep or deeper than the Concerto, probably), but it doesn't like to get in your face, doesn't like to get in your way or become a distraction. I'm a very poor multitasker, such that usually when listening to music I can't concentrate on much else, but with the KICAS I had no problem with this, and if I was typing something and the song ended, it might be a while before I realized that it was over. It's bad when you almost forget you started playing something. To me, I just couldn't get into the music on the KICAS. My simple little built-in amp on my sound card was more enjoyable than the KICAS. So I had to sell it."
   
   
  This amp is a solid state amp, which is what *you're* looking for. I've seen some recently for sale on head-fi, too. I suggest you search "concerto" in this very thread. And good luck with your research.


----------



## jax

Quote: 





skylab said:


> The inverse way to look at it of course is that for the same price as a Lyr, you can get a device that will drive the LCD-2 well, and will ALSO drive speakers, provides an terrific FM tuner, and a very nice phono preamp, all for the same price!  Yes, takes up more space, but potentially delivers many more benefits.  Now, if those benefits are not useful, then perhaps the extra size will be a big disadvantage.
> 
> The sound signature on my Pioneers is very neutral.  And as much as I liked the Meier Concerto, I felt that with the LCD-2, the headphone amp of my SX-1250 was actually better, probably due largely to delivering more power and thus more headroom and a greater sense of dynamic ease.  I paid $500 for the SX-1250; the Concerto was more expensive.  And I DO use it to drive speakers, and sometimes listen to both the preamp and the phono stage
> 
> ...


 


  Thanks for the response and the insight on the sound. Yes, that's definitely a different perspective that is entirely valid.  I wasn't thinking of the phono stage. 
   
  As far as the looks, well, lets just say, I don't get it.  And I got hooked on audio right around that time period too.  It isn't 'vintage', it's that particular era of vintage that just doesn't click with me.  Give me an HH Scott 299...or perhaps a Dynaco, or a pair of'em`1 and that'd make me happy visually, and hits my nostalgia buttons...just don't know how well they'd drive LCD-2's.  Probably the former pretty well at 18-22wpc while the latter may push the limits of their power handling at 35wpc. 
   
  Hey, wait a minute, that looks a whole lot like the TK-421, Skylab?!?!  Where's the 8-Track Slot:


----------



## grokit

Yeah the DacMini is known to have good synergy with the LCD-2. I haven't heard it myself but impressions seem to be pretty solid as a combination unit. I don't know if the amp section is as good as the Burson or the Violectric's, but the dac would be considered superior.
   
  The i20 has an optical output, I think one of the dac options for the V200 is an optical receiver so that could be a nice matchup as well.


----------



## blur510

Maybe you should get the LCD2, then try it with your receiver first see how you like it before you try to get an expensive amp. I was in the market for a better amp for my LCD2 till I stumbled upon the vintage receiver thread, and now I am in the market for a good receiver.  Rotel is a good brand for receivers/amp maybe that will be good enough to power your LCD2
  
  Quote: 





franklyshankly said:


> So after reading this whole thread today, I still have some pretty basic questions. I'm a total noob, and I apologize for that but I am learning ... slowly. I've got the bug big time, I've moved from IEMs to closed cans to HD650s and I've decided to just go for broke (literally, har har) and sell a bunch of stuff and get the LCD2s. I really like the 650s rich, warm tone, laid back yet full of detail, but I found them to be difficult to really drive to their full potential, so instead of spending $2000 on an amp for them, I've decided to get the LCD2 and spend $1000 on DAC and amp. I hope this is the right decision.
> 
> After reading this thread is seems clear that they are NOT the pickiest headphones, which is great news, but it still doesnt seem to prevent people from splitting fine hairs (myself included), which brings me to my question. Since my DAC/amp budget is fairly limited, I'm wondering how best to spend it. Part of me wants to blow it all on a really nice amp (especially interested in the Violectric V200, which seems to get quite a bit of praise) but this leaves me very little for a DAC. btw, I'm using the Pure i-20 doc with ipod touch. My main question is, should I get the nice amp/budget DAC and save for better DAC or get really mid level amp and mid level DAC (of course "mid" is relative, I realize my "mid" will be someones "low" ... for me mid is $500-600).
> 
> ...


----------



## fishski13

Quote: 





skylab said:


> The inverse way to look at it of course is that for the same price as a Lyr, you can get a device that will drive the LCD-2 well, and will ALSO drive speakers, provides an terrific FM tuner, and a very nice phono preamp, all for the same price!  Yes, takes up more space, but potentially delivers many more benefits.  Now, if those benefits are not useful, then perhaps the extra size will be a big disadvantage.
> 
> The sound signature on my Pioneers is very neutral.  And as much as I liked the Meier Concerto, I felt that with the LCD-2, the headphone amp of my SX-1250 was actually better, probably due largely to delivering more power and thus more headroom and a greater sense of dynamic ease.  I paid $500 for the SX-1250; the Concerto was more expensive.  And I DO use it to drive speakers, and sometimes listen to both the preamp and the phono stage
> 
> ...


 

 what a piece of art.  i'm envious.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





dagothur said:


> I agree.  When I get the LCD-2, unless it sounds absolutely phenomenal out of the Nuforce alone, I'm getting a Lyr to power it.


 

 There is surprisingly little difference between the amp sections of the HDP and the μDAC-2.  They're both rated for about 80mW output, if I remember correctly, and while that's respectable for the USB powered μDAC-2, it's sort of shameful for something as large and costly as the HDP.


----------



## Loevhagen

80mW? Headphone power spec. HDP: 
  288mW rms @ 30 Ohm

  210mW rms @ 120 Ohm

  152mW rms @ 300 Ohm

  123mW rms @ 500 Ohm

  96mW rms @ 600 Ohm

  59mW rms @ 1200 Ohm

  43mW rms @ 1700 Ohm

  35mW rms @ 2000 Ohm


----------



## Loevhagen

Burson HA-160D "vs." Violectric HPA V200.
  
 Having both of these running my LCD-2s I would put it as simple as this: If you are a person that like to fine tune the sound using different DACs; go with the V200. The V200/LCD-2 react quite transparent on "DAC-rolling". 
  
 If you want a one-box-solution that sounds awesome (and looks like it) from the start and do not want to "DAC-roll"; the 160D is a no brainer.
  
 If you can´t decide still and you are a person that is really, really picky on volume control; remember that the 160D has a stepped attenuator and the V200 not. In practical terms, for the rest of us, it doesn´t matter.
  
 A thing that is a bit strange is that the 160D runs quite hot, while the V200 stays lukewarm.
  
 Anyway, I´ve become a bigamst.


----------



## elnero

I had a similar dilemma when trying to decide on a source and amp for the LCD-2's. I had a budget of around $800 - $1000 but was willing to stretch a little if it meant getting something that I wouldn't feel the need to upgrade later. I considered all the options being mentioned here, the V200 with DAC, the Burson 160D and Lyr with a separate DAC but ultimately I decided on the CEntrance DACmini. There were a lot of factors involved in my decision but the main reasons came down to that I felt at some point I would still be looking to upgrade beyond any of the options and the DACmini offered the most versatility in a small form factor at the most reasonable price. It's a piece that can be uprgraded around easily and down the road could potentially move into a second system.
   
  Of course all that reasoning would be moot if the DACmini didn't work well with the LCD-2's. While I haven't had the opportunity to hear the other options I can safely say the DACmini does an admirable job with the LCD-2's and was a significant step up from what I'd heard the LCD-2's with previously, mainly a Gilmore Lite paired with my Pico DAC and a Headroom Desktop Portable.


----------



## Permagrin

*franklyshankly*

You might also want to consider the Anedio D1 DAC. It has a headphone amp section and it's in your price range ($1270). I promised to compare it's HPA section vs. it driving the Burson HA 160 but haven't got around to it yet. There is a review thread here by Project86 which is where I learned about it.


----------



## franklyshankly

Wow, so many choices! Forgive me if I forget to thank you or respond directly to your suggestion, there is just too much to think about!
  For whatever reason, I'm really attracted to the vintage amp solution, but I shouldnt be, since it's probably the LEAST convenient. Would I be able to take advantage of the vintage amp if using a DAC and preamp? Or do I need to DIY some way to attach the headphone cords to the speakers outs?
   
  For those that know about using vintage amps in this way, how does this sound: get something like the Meier StageDAC (or any other DAC/preamp combo ... Peachtree has a nice one, VanAlstine and Benchmark have them but they are out of my budget) that has a built in preamp, then feed that into a vintage amp, the DAC/preamp being fed by Pure/iPod coax ... would this allow me to fully harness the benefit of vintage amp?
   
  I'm really into the vintage speaker amp because so far I've had much better luck with my Rotel. It may be slightly less detailed, and not quite as black background, but the overall sound is much richer, fuller, more impactful and lush compared to KICAS. Also, I am a total sucker for the vintage amp look: wood box, with silver and glass faceplate full of knobs, dials, and other fun stuff. Also, the idea of being able to run some bookshelf speakers holds huge appeal.


----------



## MHinGA

Unfortunately, the Anedio website is saying that their D1 is sold out; I don't suppose you know of any vendors who might have it in stock?
  Quote: 





permagrin said:


> *franklyshankly*
> 
> You might also want to consider the Anedio D1 DAC. It has a headphone amp section and it's in your price range ($1270). I promised to compare it's HPA section vs. it driving the Burson HA 160 but haven't got around to it yet. There is a review thread here by Project86 which is where I learned about it.


----------



## Permagrin

mhinga said:


> Unfortunately, the Anedio website is saying that their D1 is sold out; I don't suppose you know of any vendors who might have it in stock?




As far as I know the only way to purchase one is directly through Anedio. I imagine they're trying to restock asap. They definitely weren't prepared for such runaway success though.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





loevhagen said:


> 80mW? Headphone power spec. HDP:
> 288mW rms @ 30 Ohm
> 
> 210mW rms @ 120 Ohm
> ...


 

 80mW used to be what they published, and listening to it, it didn't sound that impressive.  Looks like they've changed things.  That's great.  Still very limited output.  Well under a quarter of a watt into 50 ohms (172mW).  Not a good fit for Orthos.


----------



## zilch0md

Quote: 





skylab said:


>


 

 I know what poster that is, lurking behind your receiver!
   

   
  I lived in Navarro (on the other side of the bridge), but didn't make it to that one.  
   
  Mike
   
  Edit:  That sounds like I went to a lot of concerts.  Not!  (Too young, poor, and conservative.)   I remember my mom and dad driving us into the Haight-Ashbury district one Saturday, a few years earlier, when it was overrun with people sleeping on mattresses and doing other stuff.   When we stopped at a red light, a "fabulous furry freak brother" saw my mom and dad gawking at him, so he put on a spectacular freak show for us right at the curb side - cross-eyed, falling down, shaking on the ground, then jumping up and licking the car windows.  Heee-hee!  My brother and I could tell he was just having a good time giving my mother what she was looking for, but she lost it and started yelling at my dad to run the red light.  He managed to keep his cool and my brother and I were laughing our heads off.


----------



## Skylab

I was only 6 in 1972...but I did see The Grateful Dead more than 50 times


----------



## MHinGA

Yes, I emailed them to see whether they were planning another production run or perhaps a D-2 DAC
  
  Quote: 





permagrin said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Duckman

Must give another shout out to the Burson 160D.
   
  Heard it again yesterday, and it is a wonderful match with the LCD2.


----------



## sferic

Quote: 





skylab said:


> I was only 6 in 1972...but I did see The Grateful Dead more than 50 times


 

 Oh, that explains a lot, cool


----------



## sesshin

[size=medium]Can someone elaborate further on their impressions of the LCD-2s and the Benchmark DAC1 Pre? I've seen comments that there was a rig at the Seattle meet with that combo that sounded good.
   
  On paper the two seem like a good match for neutral sound: the LCD-2 with it's laid back highs and the DAC1 Pre with it's detailed brightness, but I know Benchmark has it's detractors.​[/size]


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





sesshin said:


>


 
   

 [size=medium]Can someone elaborate further on their impressions of the LCD-2s and the Benchmark DAC1 Pre? I've seen comments that there was a rig at the Seattle meet with that combo that sounded good.
   
  On paper the two seem like a good match for neutral sound: the LCD-2 with it's laid back highs and the DAC1 Pre with it's detailed brightness, but I know Benchmark has it's detractors.​[/size]

   
   
   
  It all depends what kind of amp the DAC-1 is paired with. If it's solid-state it probably going to sound very detailed and analytical. I've heard the PS-Audio III with my Apache and it sounded very unnatural and machine-like. If you're pairing it with a tube amp it might be a good match.


----------



## grokit

He's probably speaking of the high-powered SS HPO of the DAC Pre, which features two levels of attenuation.


----------



## brasewel

Oh nevermind then


----------



## jackmccabe

Quote: 





sesshin said:


> Can someone elaborate further on their impressions of the LCD-2s and the Benchmark DAC1 Pre? I've seen comments that there was a rig at the Seattle meet with that combo that sounded good.
> 
> On paper the two seem like a good match for neutral sound: the LCD-2 with it's laid back highs and the DAC1 Pre with it's detailed brightness, but I know Benchmark has it's detractors.


 
   

 [size=medium]It sounds completely neutral and transparent, so it adds absolutely nothing to the sound and the only colouring is from the lcd-2's.
  This is assuming your using the headphone amplifier built into it.
  It is definitely a nice, with great build quality and features, but I think you can get the same sound for cheaper.​[/size]


----------



## sesshin

Quote:


grokit said:


> He's probably speaking of the high-powered SS HPO of the DAC Pre, which features two levels of attenuation.


 

 Yes that is what I meant, the DAC1 Pre as a DAC/amp combo, not just the DAC out.
   
  This unit in particular appeals to me for it's analytical capabilities, but at the same time you can bypass the amp to something warmer if need be and still have the detailed DAC.


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





jackmccabe said:


>


 
   
   
   

 [size=medium]It sounds completely neutral and transparent, so it adds absolutely nothing to the sound and the only colouring is from the lcd-2's.
  This is assuming your using the headphone amplifier built into it.
  It is definitely a nice, with great build quality and features,* but I think you can get the same sound for cheaper.*​[/size]

   
   
  Let's not get into the same conversation over here as well


----------



## sesshin

[size=medium] Quote: 





brasewel said:


> It sounds completely neutral and transparent, so it adds absolutely nothing to the sound and the only colouring is from the lcd-2's.
> This is assuming your using the headphone amplifier built into it.
> It is definitely a nice, with great build quality and features, but I think you can get the same sound for cheaper.



[/size]

 [size=medium]  [/size]
 [size=medium] Good to hear! What units do you consider cheaper for the same sound as the DAC1 Pre?
  [/size]​


----------



## Zinterax

Skylab, or anyone else with experience using speaker receivers to drive the LCD-2's.
   
  I may be able to get a JVC R-X330V (1985 timeframe) from a friend. But trying to find information on it online is being kind of a pain. Does anyone know of this or something similar and how it would work driving the LCD-2s?
   
  here is the unit.


----------



## jackmccabe

Quote: 





sesshin said:


> [size=medium]  [/size]
> [size=medium] Good to hear! What units do you consider cheaper for the same sound as the DAC1 Pre?
> [/size]​


 
  Personally I find pretty much all dacs to sound the same so almost any moderately priced soundcard or dac with a decent feature set should be fine. (sorry if this offends anyone, remember it is just my opinion)
  For the amp almost any decent solid state amp that is fairly powerful should work fine, the fiio e9, gilmore lite, CK2III and lovely cube all sound great.
  The audio-gd sparrow is also great.


----------



## Skylab

zinterax said:


> Skylab, or anyone else with experience using speaker receivers to drive the LCD-2's.
> 
> I may be able to get a JVC R-X330V (1985 timeframe) from a friend. But trying to find information on it online is being kind of a pain. Does anyone know of this or something similar and how it would work driving the LCD-2s?
> 
> here is the unit.



It might indeed work well. You should take your LFD-2's over to your friends house and try it out


----------



## castlevania32

I think i read somewhere in this thread that the Meier Concerto puts 6W at 50ohms for the LCD2's. Can someone confirm ? So the Concerto has plenty power for the audeze ?


----------



## brasewel

^^ I highly doubt the concerto puts out that much power at 50ohms. Even with my Denons I could turn the volume all the way up on low gain, it's just not possible.


----------



## franklyshankly

I'm seriously considering going the vintage speaker amp route, but I'd like to hear from people who have heard both speaker amps and dedicated headphone amps. What are the relative strengths and weaknesses of each route. I'm convinced, perhaps misguidedly, that more power (current, volt, amps, not really sure) does equate to a more involving and dynamic sound. Maybe I'm wrong, and I'm sure their are people who would be able to prove this wrong but it seems as if speaker amps can provide a certain ooomph that smaller headphones cannot. I understand that there are many factors that influence sound quality, so could someone compare the two different amp styles?
   
  I'm really torn between something like the Burson 160, and a speaker amp. If I can get a $200 vintage speaker amp that sounds nearly as good in most ways, save $500 to go towards a really high end DAC, this seems like a really good way to enjoy the LCD2s. Any thoughts?


----------



## K3cT

The Concerto is not a good match with the LCD2. Not enough juice and too thin and dry sounding.


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





k3ct said:


> The Concerto is not a good match with the LCD2. Not enough juice and too thin and dry sounding.


 

 I agree although some people would beg to differ.


----------



## Girls Generation

What would you guys think of the LCD2 in a portable set up:

iPhone - CLAS - Stepdance (powered with 15 volts instead of 8.4 regular batteries) ?

Would you think there would be another portable amp that could do much better? I'd really like to send in my stepdance and batterypack to someone that has the SR71B and ask for a comparison.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





castlevania32 said:


> I think i read somewhere in this thread that the Meier Concerto puts 6W at 50ohms for the LCD2's. Can someone confirm ? So the Concerto has plenty power for the audeze ?


 

 Not even close.  More like 650mW at best


----------



## fomoz

this is a very long thread, can someone please tell me what's a good full-size amp for these for ~$500. is the Schiit Lyr good?


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





fomoz said:


> this is a very long thread, can someone please tell me what's a good full-size amp for these for ~$500. is the Schiit Lyr good?


 
  Yes


----------



## Permagrin

fomoz said:


> this is a very long thread, can someone please tell me what's a good full-size amp for these for ~$500. *is the Schiit Lyr good?*




Only 198 posts returned in a search in this thread. Shouldn't take that long to read.


----------



## jackmccabe

The CK2III or M3 are also great options that can be found used for under $500.


----------



## brasewel

Theres a portable LCD-2 amp thread. You may want to check that out.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





brasewel said:


> I agree although some people would beg to differ.


 

 I'm confused.  I thought all DAC's, amps, cables, and headphones pretty much sound the same and that it's the ear canal that makes all the difference...


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





fomoz said:


> this is a very long thread, can someone please tell me what's a good full-size amp for these for ~$500. is the Schiit Lyr good?


 


  The post is long. I read 0-178 twice (I forgot to take notes the first time) and found it to be extremely informative.   You will find invaluable knowledge on almost every contending amp for the LCD. I found it immensely helpful and of course I discovered things I didn't know I didn't know .  Remember to take notes.


----------



## MacedonianHero

k3ct said:


> The Concerto is not a good match with the LCD2. Not enough juice and too thin and dry sounding.




I am one who would beg to differ. No full sized amp of the quality of the Concerto could ever make the LCD-2s sound thin. :rolleyes:

Under $1K for a SS amp, I would completely recommend it for the LCD-2s.


----------



## MacedonianHero

kwkarth said:


> Not even close.  More like 650mW at best




According to Todd at TTVJ, the Peak/Volcano puts 700mW into 50ohms FWIW.


----------



## Wedge

I talked to Pete Millet and Todd.  It actually puts out around 1.28W RMS into a 50 ohm load.  Todd had some mistake numbers I believe going on.
  Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> kwkarth said:
> ...


----------



## MacedonianHero

wedge said:


> I talked to Pete Millet and Todd.  It actually puts out around 1.28W RMS into a 50 ohm load.  Todd had some mistake numbers I believe going on.




I talked to Todd on Saturday and he mentioned 700mW. He should post the real value on his website IMO. If it was 2W or more, I might be tempted.


----------



## Wedge

780 mW into 32 Ohm load.


----------



## MacedonianHero

wedge said:


> 780 mW into 32 Ohm load.





Just quoting...."700 mW into 50 ohms" is what I was told. I specifically asked as I was interested to see how it could drive my LCD-2s / HE-6s. I asked twice to confirm FWIW.

Again, not saying which it is, but the correct value should be really posted on his website.


----------



## grokit

Driving the LCD-2 and the HE-6 are two entirely different propositions.


----------



## MacedonianHero

grokit said:


> Driving the LCD-2 and the HE-6 are two entirely different propositions.




Not necessarily.


----------



## edvardd

It can be found here: http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/556585/portable-amp-for-lcd2
  
  Quote: 





brasewel said:


> Theres a portable LCD-2 amp thread. You may want to check that out.


----------



## jeust0999

Macedonian,
   
  Do you feel the WA2 would be the *one* amp if I need to drive both T1 & LCD2? Or was the LCD2 compromised with the OTL, and the Lyr was ultimately needed? Thanks.


----------



## MacedonianHero

jeust0999 said:


> Macedonian,
> 
> Do you feel the WA2 would be the *one* amp if I need to drive both T1 & LCD2? Or was the LCD2 compromised with the OTL, and the Lyr was ultimately needed? Thanks.




The WA2 is the best amp I've heard with the T1s and a fabulous amp for the LCD-2s. I prefer it over say the Concerto. But in the end, I feel the Lyr (with my Genalex Gold Lions or Mullard CV2492s) is a better solution for the LCD-2s (and HE-6s for that matter). The 4W into 50 ohms for orthos is a real asset IMHO.

Orthos are very different from low impedance dynamic headphones with regards to damping factors as the drivers move very differently.


----------



## Wedge

Honestly I think the Apex P/V drives the LCD-2 great, and does a very good job driving the HE-6.


----------



## jeust0999

Yeah, I've read about the difference in the dampening for the different driver technologies mentioned earlier in the thread. I think "best amp" for the T1 and "fabulous" for the LCD2 might not be much of a compromise, after all. Thanks, Macedonian.


----------



## MacedonianHero

jeust0999 said:


> Yeah, I've read about the difference in the dampening for the different driver technologies mentioned earlier in the thread. I think "best amp" for the T1 and "fabulous" for the LCD2 might not be much of a compromise, after all. Thanks, Macedonian.




Just a quick follow up...for the T1s, I prefer the Tung-Sol 5998s and for the LCD-2s, I like the 7236 (Tung-Sol or Sylvanias) slightly more.


----------



## jeust0999

Good info. Good to know, will jot this down.
   
  There's a really good review of some woo amps with a quick mention of the audeze's here.


----------



## MacedonianHero

jeust0999 said:


> Good info. Good to know, will jot this down.
> 
> There's a really good review of some woo amps with a quick mention of the audeze's here.




Yep....Ross did a fantastic job on that thread (as usual).


----------



## franklyshankly

Does anyone have any experience with this amp: PS Audio GCHA?
  Apparently outputs 10W per channel? Seems ideal for the LCDs.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> There is surprisingly little difference between the amp sections of the HDP and the μDAC-2.  They're both rated for about 80mW output, if I remember correctly, and while that's respectable for the USB powered μDAC-2, it's sort of shameful for something as large and costly as the HDP.


 
   
   
  I can guarantee the HDP has noticeably more power for ALL headphones than the uDAC-2.  They measured it with the prototype HDP but then made a change in the output that resulted in a big jump in power.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> 80mW used to be what they published, and listening to it, it didn't sound that impressive.  Looks like they've changed things.  That's great.  Still very limited output.  Well under a quarter of a watt into 50 ohms (172mW).  Not a good fit for Orthos.


 

 What he posted are the same "old" specs that Nuforce sent to me with the original prototype HDP Jan 27, 2010.  I never saw an 80ma spec anywhere. Then on my recommendation on Feb 4, 2010 (after testing the amp for a week) they made changes to the output protecting resistor.  That resulted in a big increase in power output, and a noticeable improvement in sound quality.  I'm guessing about 3x more power than the specs at low impedance (32-50 ohm), and about 30% more at 300 ohm.  I don't know why they didn't re-measure the HDP, maybe they figured they'd stay conservative on the specs and not waste the money/time.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





headphoneaddict said:


> I can guarantee the HDP has noticeably more power for ALL headphones than the uDAC-2.  They measured it with the prototype HDP but then made a change in the output that resulted in a big jump in power.


 
  Good to hear!


----------



## franklyshankly

Would the Meier StageDAC pair well with Violectric V200 for the LCD2s? Anyone have any thoughts on this? I've never heard the stageDAC, is it fairly well regarded?


----------



## grokit

It's well regarded, you wouldn't be able to use the balanced input on the V200 but it would still be a great combo.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





franklyshankly said:


> Does anyone have any experience with this amp: PS Audio GCHA?
> Apparently outputs 10W per channel? Seems ideal for the LCDs.


 

 I've got one on loan from a friend at this moment.  I can tell you briefly it's a VERY pleasant listen when used as a headphone amp.  I don't think it's anywhere near 10WPC, regardless of what the marketing dept. says, but it does a reasonable job powering the LCD-2s and it feels like it's good for a couple of honest watts per channel.  More than enough.  I do not care for the DAC in it, but the amp alone is worth the price of admission if you're looking for a good SS amp.  Music Direct has 'em new for half price and "B" stock for even less..


----------



## Girls Generation

The portable amp thread didn't help at ALL. 

Anyone here have an SR71B and is willing to compare with a 15volt powered stepdance? (will loan) It would mean the world to the portable users out there ^-^ -nudges Skylab and kwkarth- :3


----------



## zilch0md

Thanks for that link jeust0999!
   
  Quote: 





jeust0999 said:


> Good info. Good to know, will jot this down.
> 
> There's a really good review of some woo amps with a quick mention of the audeze's here.


 

 I like the way Ross writes and found these paragraphs to be particularly illuminating (as I'm currently comparing a Schiit Lyr to a Meier Stepdance, both into LCD-2s, with my having had no prior experience listening to tube amps):
   
   
   Quoting the first post in the thread you referenced:  
   


> DETAILS, DETAILS, DETAILS
> 
> The WA2 seems to eschew some micro detail for overall musicality. I have felt that, at times, it has a bit of veil to it as a consequence. I'm not saying the WA2 is a thick wool sweater but if you're a detail freak the WA2 isn't going to be the amp that will pick up the two flies on the wall at the time of the recording kibitzing about luch. The WA2 does seem to gloss over the most minute textures.
> 
> Again, the WA6SE falls just shy of solid state performance at extracting details. The HD800 is a magnifying glass for details. The WA6SE allows the HD800 to do it's job with barely any interference. All without being analytical or etched.


 
   
  I'm a resolution hound - I crave detail, but obviously, I want it to sound natural, musical, not harsh.
   
Tom Martin's review of the Apex Peak/Volcano contains an interesting section regarding the Peak's resolution of detail and the role of resolving power in recreating reaility:
   
   
   Quote:
   


> Listening to the Peak/Volcano combo suggests that a really good front end can do a lot to restore the highest levels sonic transparency that sometimes seem lacking in headphone-based systems. In short, this amp has an astonishing level of resolving power that shows up in its superior handling of spatial information, instrumental decays, and other low-level signals. These small signals are a key test of amplifier resolving power. This isn’t just a sporting thing; it’s the kind of difference that really matters for many kinds of music—if you care about realism.
> 
> The Peak/Volcano also expresses its superior resolution in the way it separates instruments. Many amps create a harmoniously blended sound on ensemble work (e.g., the sound of many instruments playing in a band at the same time)—a sound that is pleasantly homogenized, yet for that very reason is also inaccurate. The Peak/Volcano helps you realize that this kind of homogenized presentation is actually the result of lesser amplifiers smearing the distinct sounds of individual instruments into a wash. Once the Peak/Volcano’s much higher levels of resolution come into play, however, you instead hear more detailed contributions from each instrument in the ensemble, and in a way that doesn’t sound at all unnatural, but rather sounds more like the real thing.


 
   
  The fact that the Peak puts out something less than or a little more than one Watt RMS, would make it a poor match for the HE-6 (going by what I've read about its power needs), but not necessarily a poor match for the LCD-2 (going by how great the LCD-2 sounds with my 15-Volt powered Stepdance - which isn't likely to be producing more Watts than the Apex Peak). 
   
  If the Apex Peak has enough power for the LCD-2, its resolution and transparency are very appealing to me. * Are there any other tube amps that garner the kind of praise that Tom Martin has given the Peak in terms of detail and transparency?*  Is that what the Lebens offer, for example (along with other desirable traits, no doubt)?  
   
  Any comments will be appreciated.  
   
  Mike


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





zilch0md said:


> Thanks for that link jeust0999!
> 
> 
> I like the way Ross writes and found these paragraphs to be particularly illuminating (as I'm currently comparing a Schiit Lyr to a Meier Stepdance, both into LCD-2s, with my having had no prior experience listening to tube amps):
> ...


 

 Go to page 157 and 158 in this thread where we have compared the Apex P/V, Apache and Leben.


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





zilch0md said:


> If the Apex Peak has enough power for the LCD-2, its resolution and transparency are very appealing to me. * Are there any other tube amps that garner the kind of praise that Tom Martin has given the Peak in terms of detail and transparency?*  Is that what the Lebens offer, for example (along with other desirable traits, no doubt)?
> 
> Any comments will be appreciated.
> 
> Mike


 

 IMHO, yes, the Leben paired with the LCD-2 provides at least the same level of transparency and detail as the P/V, and I tested both side by side when I had the review loaner of the P/V.  Both are really excellent amps for the LCD-2 - can't go wrong with either one!


----------



## fomoz

brasewel said:


> Theres a portable LCD-2 amp thread. You may want to check that out.



why? i already have a portable amp and i'm waiting for my Ed. 8 to arrive for a portable setup. the LCD-2 would not leave my home, it's HUGE! if the Lyr is a good amp for $500, i'll just get that and call it a day 



warriorant said:


> The post is long. I read 0-178 twice (I forgot to take notes the first time) and found it to be extremely informative.   You will find invaluable knowledge on almost every contending amp for the LCD. I found it immensely helpful and of course I discovered things I didn't know I didn't know .  Remember to take notes.



would you like to share some cliff notes please?


----------



## jax

Quote: 





girls generation said:


> The portable amp thread didn't help at ALL.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Sorry, no experience to share, but wondered if you had also considered the iBasso PB2 Pelican?  I believe it is slightly more power than the SR71B and is also truly balanced.  There have been some comparisons of those two portables where the PB2 is favored.  Again, no experience to share, but I'd be curious as well how these balanced portables worked with LCD-2's.  The PB2 is about half the price of the SR71B..


----------



## MHinGA

Re the Anedio, here's what I got back from them after my inquiry:
   
_... Due to heavy customer demand, the D1 DAC is sold out earlier than we anticipated.  *Instead of building more D1s, we are focusing our resources on updating the D1 DAC with high resolution USB.*   We apologize that we do not yet have a release date, but we are working very hard to bring the D1 update in the market as soon as possible._
  
  So there it is.
   
  Quote: 





permagrin said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Permagrin

mhinga said:


> Re the Anedio, here's what I got back from them after my inquiry:
> 
> _... Due to heavy customer demand, the D1 DAC is sold out earlier than we anticipated.  *Instead of building more D1s, we are focusing our resources on updating the D1 DAC with high resolution USB.*   We apologize that we do not yet have a release date, but we are working very hard to bring the D1 update in the market as soon as possible._
> 
> So there it is.




Yeah I just read project86's post moments ago in the D1 thread with that info. Good to hear.

I for one can't wait for the USB -SP/DIF dongle er whatever so I can utilize my 192khz library to it's fullest.

Cheers!


----------



## Wedge

Quote: 





zilch0md said:


> The fact that the Peak puts out something less than or a little more than one Watt RMS, would make it a poor match for the HE-6 (going by what I've read about its power needs), but not necessarily a poor match for the LCD-2 (going by how great the LCD-2 sounds with my 15-Volt powered Stepdance - which isn't likely to be producing more Watts than the Apex Peak).


 
   
  I think the P/V does an excellent job with the LCD-2, and I'll have to be honest even though this is not an HE-6 thread it does a very good job IMO with the HE-6.  When I had the WA-22 I considered that amp to be a little weak for the HE-6, but I don't consider the P/V weak for the HE-6, it isn't the best that I have heard them but it is very good, and to be honest my other amp that I think it about as good as the HE-6 can get is a WA-5, so theres HUGE different in price.


----------



## zilch0md

Thanks brasewel,
  
  Quote: 





brasewel said:


> Go to page 157 and 158 in this thread where we have compared the Apex P/V, Apache and Leben.


 
   
  I'm haunted by the comment you made here:
   



> Agreed. I think we all came to the conclusion that you need a tube somewhere along the chain to mellow out the music.


 
   
  I'm too inexperienced at listening to tube amps to be in disagreement with your statement.   I'm just trying to get a handle on what tubes bring to the component chain.
   
  I'm also perplexed by LiqTenExp's post where he said:
   



> I am a fan of precision but not at the cost of musicality.


 
   
  I'm gobbling up every word of the reviews that you and LiqTenExp and Wedge wrote after that mini-meet, but as a guy who hasn't spent much time listening to tubes, I feel as if I would prefer precision to musicality, perhaps because I don't really have an appreciation (yet?) for what you mean by a tube _mellowing out the music_.  To my ears, the only tube amp I've heard with my LCD-2s, the JJ or 6N1P equipped Lyr (Mullard CV2492s have been ordered) lacks the precision and detail that my only solid state amp (a Stepdance) does not lack with the LCD-2s.  
   
  So, I'm left wanting to ask the question, "Do all tube amps offer _musicality_ at the _expense_ of precision, detail, or transparency?"  And if so, would you suppose the majority of folks who've actually spent a lot of time listening to both tube and ss amps, are willing to sacrifice precision for _musicality_?  Keep in mind, that I don't find my solid state solution to be at all lacking in anything that I would call musicality - so it could be that I've just not heard enough tube amps to wake up to what I'm missing...
   
  Thanks,
   
  Mike


----------



## zilch0md

Thanks Skylab,
   
  That's really good to hear, as I know you love the Leben with your LCD-2s, and I know I crave detail, so you've just saved me thousands of dollars!  I might actually buy a P/V some day, but the Leben isn't likely to happen.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Mike
  
  Quote: 





skylab said:


> IMHO, yes, the Leben paired with the LCD-2 provides at least the same level of transparency and detail as the P/V, and I tested both side by side when I had the review loaner of the P/V.  Both are really excellent amps for the LCD-2 - can't go wrong with either one!


----------



## LiqTenExp

I think the best way to describe my comment is that some setups can sound so sterile that they don't sound natural to some peoples ears.


----------



## Wedge

Quote: 





zilch0md said:


> I'm gobbling up every word of the reviews that you and LiqTenExp and Wedge wrote after that mini-meet, but as a guy who hasn't spent much time listening to tubes, I feel as if I would prefer precision to musicality, perhaps because I don't really have an appreciation (yet?) for what you mean by a tube _mellowing out the music_.  To my ears, the only tube amp I've heard with my LCD-2s, the JJ or 6N1P equipped Lyr (Mullard CV2492s have been ordered) lacks the precision and detail that my only solid state amp (a Stepdance) does not lack with the LCD-2s.
> 
> So, I'm left wanting to ask the question, "Do all tube amps offer _musicality_ at the _expense_ of precision, detail, or transparency?"  And if so, would you suppose the majority of folks who've actually spent a lot of time listening to both tube and ss amps, are willing to sacrifice precision for _musicality_?  Keep in mind, that I don't find my solid state solution to be at all lacking in anything that I would call musicality - so it could be that I've just not heard enough tube amps to wake up to what I'm missing...


 
   
  I do not feel that tubes sacrifice precision for musicality, I believe that sometimes it is perceived this way because it comes down to whether that precision really punches you in the face, or they are just there and you have to look for them.  LiqTenExp and I have completely different tastes and the musicality of say the Leben or my Woo Amp (formerly I had the WA-22, but now just the WA-5) have never made him all that excited, he likes em but doesn't love them.  My experience with the Lyr tells me the source you have will make as big of a difference as a tube swap.  I really like a more lush and musical sound than LiqTenExp does, and I have some suspicion that music choices have a bit to do with that as well.  I listen to rock, classic rock, jazz, blues, female singers, etc.  LiqTenExp listens to more I believe Prog Rock and Metal (whatever you call it, it is quite a bit harder than I generally listen to).  I don't share your same sentiment in the Lyr not having good resolution or precision, but I also think that what you get out of going with a more expensive amp like the P/V is that it sounds more musical than the Lyr does, atleast to me.


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





zilch0md said:


> Thanks brasewel,
> 
> 
> I'm haunted by the comment you made here:
> ...


 

  Tube amps do not sacrifice any precision, detail or transparency. They just add a little warmth and softness to the music which makes the sound very engaging and musical. Some people like Wedge prefer tubes all the way which in-turn would mean a lusher sounding signature while LiqTen and myself preferred the best of both worlds (hybrid).


----------



## zilch0md

Quote: 





liqtenexp said:


> I think the best way to describe my comment is that some setups can sound so sterile that they don't sound natural to some peoples ears.


 

 I think i know what you mean, but I honestly don't have enough experience to know where on the musical vs. sterile spectrum my solid state rig sits.


----------



## zilch0md

Thanks Wedge!


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





zilch0md said:


> I think i know what you mean, but I honestly don't have enough experience to know where on the musical vs. sterile spectrum my solid state rig sits.


 

 That's a tough one especially since you haven't heard a tube setup.


----------



## zilch0md

brasewel,
  Quote: 





brasewel said:


> Tube amps do not sacrifice any precision, detail or transparency. They just add a little warmth and softness to the music which makes the sound very engaging and musical. Some people like Wedge prefer tubes all the way which in-turn would mean a lusher sounding signature while LiqTen and myself preferred the best of both worlds (hybrid).


 

 So, the choice to go for the warmth and musicality of a tube amp, does not not necessarily mean I must suffer a loss of precision. That's good to know, because I wouldn't want to sacrifice precision for musicality.  If anything, I want both!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Thanks!
   
  Mike
   
  Edit:  Changed "to get to go for"  to "to go for" in the first sentence.


----------



## brasewel

I prefer a mixture of both as well. Pure SS is way too analytical for me and sounds unnatural while pure tubes is too lush. Make sure you listen and compare both before you make any significant investment.


----------



## zilch0md

A clarification...
   
  Quote: 





wedge said:


> I don't share your same sentiment in the Lyr not having good resolution or precision, but I also think that what you get out of going with a more expensive amp like the P/V is that it sounds more musical than the Lyr does, atleast to me.


 
   
  I just wanted to reiterate that I'll be listening to some Mullard CV2492s in the Lyr soon - they're due to arrive in a couple of days, as a replacement for a bad pair that I received by mail last Friday (from www.tubemonger.com).  So thus far, I've only compared my Stepdance to the Lyr when it was equipped with JJs and 6N1Ps.  This is a bit premature, because I have to do a lot more listening before I post my final impressions, but to my ears, the 6N1Ps are way better than the JJs, in terms of detail and transparency relative to the Stepdance (using a Sony PCM-M10 Line Out as my source and LCD-2 at the other end).  I'm hoping the Mullard CV2492s take the Lyr's "precision" even further, because there are a few songs I've heard that really come to life in the 6N1P-equipped Lyr in a way that just doesn't happen with my Stepdance, despite a very slight lack of texture and detail relative to the Stepdance.  Perhaps these magical moments I'm hearing with the 6N1P Lyr are what everyone is referring to when the word "musical" is used.  Still, I want detail at least as good as what I'm hearing in the Stepdance.  I want it all.
   
   
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Mike


----------



## grokit

I don't know if hybrid amps are the best of both worlds, I think that they are more like a reasonable compromise. I could be wrong but I don't think there are many, or perhaps any, hybrid amps that could be considered leading-edge/TOTL.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





grokit said:


> I don't know if hybrid amps are the best of both worlds, I think that they are more like a reasonable compromise. I could be wrong but I don't think there are many, or perhaps any, hybrid amps that could be considered leading-edge/TOTL.


 
  P/V


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





grokit said:


> *I don't know if hybrid amps are the best of both worlds*, I think that they are more like a reasonable compromise. I could be wrong but I don't think there are many, or perhaps any, hybrid amps that could be considered leading-edge/TOTL.


 

 Maybe so.
  The P/V is probably as good as it gets as far as hybrid amps go. If I'm not mistaken, I think the RWA Isabellina and Isabella are also hybrid amps.


----------



## grokit

P/V, right 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Didn't realize that the RWAs are also hybrid, thanks.


----------



## brasewel

Schiit Lyr lol. I don't know how good the Isabella is at $6k. I think Skylab has done a review on it.


----------



## blur510

uh oh, does this mean your apache is on the chopping block? If so what are you getting next? LF? or P/V? Just curious...
  
  Quote: 





brasewel said:


> I prefer a mixture of both as well. Pure SS is way too analytical for me and sounds unnatural while pure tubes is too lush. Make sure you listen and compare both before you make any significant investment.


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





blur510 said:


> uh oh, does this mean your apache is on the chopping block? If so what are you getting next? LF? or P/V? Just curious...


 
  No it's not. I got a Havana tube dac to give it the Hybrid flavor 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 which made it practically indistinguishable from the P/V. No more headphone amps for me. I'm now looking at a good bookshelf speaker


----------



## blur510

That is cool, I bet your wallet is relieved, I am also in the hunt for a decent bookshelf. I am clueless about them as well so many more sleepless nights researching about them in my future.  I have switched over to the vintage receiver camp for my amp needs for my LCD2, better bang for the bucks is the upside.  Wanting good bookshelf (could get pricy) is the downside. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  Quote: 





brasewel said:


> No it's not. I got a Havana tube dac to give it the Hybrid flavor
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## brasewel

I could recommend some if you want in a PM. I've pretty much made my mind on what I want to get.


----------



## Wedge

In Skylab's review of the P/V I tend to agree with his statement regarding the P/V pretty much pulling off the holy grail of the Hybrid amp.


----------



## tme110

I don't see the LCD-2's as being the power hog everyone keeps talking about. On my relatively low powered Mappletree amp I'm only listening at 50% volume and on the PV it's about 30% volume.  I got the PV knowing that I'd have to quickly sell it or the mappletree but I still can't decide which one I like better - so there's clearly more to amp/hp synergy than a couple stats.  (ok, the APV is clearly better but you're paying for a much more complex system and fancy preamp but I like the simplicity of the MAD and it still sounds awesome).


----------



## MacedonianHero

tme110 said:


> I don't see the LCD-2's as being the power hog everyone keeps talking about. On my relatively low powered Mappletree amp I'm only listening at 50% volume and on the PV it's about 30% volume.  I got the PV knowing that I'd have to quickly sell it or the mappletree but I still can't decide which one I like better - so there's clearly more to amp/hp synergy than a couple stats.  (ok, the APV is clearly better but you're paying for a much more complex system and fancy preamp but I like the simplicity of the MAD and it still sounds awesome).




I used to own the MAD Ear+HD and yes it could play the LCD-2s loud enough. It's max power is 170mW. I suggest you try the LCD-2s on a more powerful amp (2W ish+) to see what they can really do.


----------



## jackmccabe

Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> I used to own the MAD Ear+HD and yes it could play the LCD-2s loud enough. It's max power is 170mW. I suggest you try the LCD-2s on a more powerful amp (2W ish+) to see what they can really do.


 
  I think he's got an apex peak, so I would assume that's plenty powerful enough.


----------



## Kremer930

Looks like you have the tube virus now.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Great to see that you are beginning to experience what the Lyr can do.  Keep an ear out on the new Schiit amp that is planned.  It will be a game changer from what I have heard.  
   
  Message was meant to reply to Zilch.


----------



## zilch0md

Roger that!
  
  Quote: 





kremer930 said:


> Looks like you have the tube virus now.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





kremer930 said:


> Looks like you have the tube virus now.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I thought they were just releasing a new DAC. Are they releasing a new high-end amp as well?


----------



## Ynoskire

They're doing all kinds of schiit. 1 new amp and 3 new dacs.


----------



## Cluny

The "Search This Thread" button doesn't seem to work for me so I ask:
  I'm thinking of buying the WA6 + Sophia  for  the LCD-2. Would that be wise?


----------



## WarriorAnt

[size=medium]V200.  In the house.​[/size]


----------



## zilch0md

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> [size=medium]V200.  In the house.​[/size]


 

 Enjoy!


----------



## DeadEars

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> [size=medium]V200.  In the house.​[/size]


 


  Well done!  I hope it lives up to your expectations with the LCD-2's!  I'm sure you'll be back with impressions after giving it a nice break-in.  We're all looking forward to it.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





deadears said:


> Well done!  I hope it lives up to your expectations with the LCD-2's!  I'm sure you'll be back with impressions after giving it a nice break-in.  We're all looking forward to it.


 
  I can't believe I actually completed my first headphone rig.


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> [size=medium]V200.  In the house.​[/size]


 

 Congrats. Impressions?


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





grokit said:


> P/V, right
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Add the Liquid Fire to the Hybrid list as well. A review has been posted here http://www.avguide.com/review/cavalli-audio-liquid-fire-headphone-amplifier-playback-45
  Looks like it's a beast of an amp.


----------



## MacedonianHero

jackmccabe said:


> I think he's got an apex peak, so I would assume that's plenty powerful enough.




No doubt the P/V is a great amp for driving the LCD-2s (though I wish it was closer to at least 2W into 50ohms)...but my comment was strictly limited to the MAD Ear+HD (one of the very best Grado amps out there BTW).


----------



## Permagrin

macedonianhero said:


> jackmccabe said:
> 
> 
> > I think he's got an apex peak, so I would assume that's plenty powerful enough.
> ...




Mike has an output transformer on his Ear+ HD that allows it to put out a lot more power than normal at 50 ohms (I'm just a laymen but I think you know what I'm saying). I listened through it and it drove the LCD-2s admirably.


----------



## brasewel

I don't think the P/V requires any more power to drive the LCD-2s. The LCD-2 sounded very good through it. Come to think of it, I wonder how much power my Apache puts out.


----------



## MacedonianHero

permagrin said:


> macedonianhero said:
> 
> 
> > jackmccabe said:
> ...




The MAD Ear+HD's are not OTL amps. If he's done some modifications to them, then great...but my MAD Ear+HD (with blackgate caps) was not up to the task to fully drive the LCD-2s. Did they sound nice...sure, but they were being held back.


----------



## zilch0md

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *brasewel* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Add the Liquid Fire to the Hybrid list as well. A review has been posted here http://www.avguide.com/review/cavalli-audio-liquid-fire-headphone-amplifier-playback-45
> Looks like it's a beast of an amp.


 

 Thanks for that link!  Another great review from Tom Martin.
   
  I couldn't help but notice a similarity in one paragraph to something he wrote in an earlier review.
   
       Quoting Tom Martin's review of the Cavalli Audio Liquid Fire:
   


> First, the Cavalli deals very well with low-level signals. Low-level signals are critical for conveying the color of instruments (because the color often lies in the harmonic structure of the instrument, which consists of small overtones). Low-level signals are also essential for conveying a sense of the space in which the recording was made (because the “sound” of the space is represented by a series of reflections of lower and lower volume). *The Liquid Fire allows you to hear all sorts of these smaller signals, whereas some amps either blur them or bury them in noise.*


 
   
   
       Quoting Tom Martin's review of the Apex P/V:
   


> Listening to the Peak/Volcano combo suggests that a really good front end can do a lot to restore the highest levels sonic transparency that sometimes seem lacking in headphone-based systems. In short, this amp has an astonishing level of resolving power that shows up in its superior handling of spatial information, instrumental decays, and other low-level signals.* These small signals are a key test of amplifier resolving power.* This isn’t just a sporting thing; it’s the kind of difference that really matters for many kinds of music—if you care about realism.
> 
> The Peak/Volcano also expresses its superior resolution in the way it separates instruments. Many amps create a harmoniously blended sound on ensemble work (e.g., the sound of many instruments playing in a band at the same time)—a sound that is pleasantly homogenized, yet for that very reason is also inaccurate.* The Peak/Volcano helps you realize that this kind of homogenized presentation is actually the result of lesser amplifiers smearing the distinct sounds of individual instruments into a wash.* Once the Peak/Volcano’s much higher levels of resolution come into play, however, you instead hear more detailed contributions from each instrument in the ensemble, and in a way that doesn’t sound at all unnatural, but rather sounds more like the real thing.


 
   
  This is why, if compromise is necessary, I feel as if I'd gladly sacrifice other desirable sonic traits before I would forfeit resolution.  Bring on the detail.
   
  Mike


----------



## grokit

Evidently there are indeed some _very_ high-end hybrids out there, sorry about the brainfart as I knew about both the LF and the PV, for some reason I was just thinking EF5/Lyr.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





cluny said:


> The "Search This Thread" button doesn't seem to work for me so I ask:
> I'm thinking of buying the WA6 + Sophia  for  the LCD-2. Would that be wise?


 

 Go for the WA6-SE, not the standard WA6.


----------



## Kremer930

brasewel said:


> I thought they were just releasing a new DAC. Are they releasing a new high-end amp as well?




I can't remember where I read it but I think that Jason mentioned it briefly at the end of the 6 moons review. I know some extra details but have been sworn to secrecy but it is going to be a ripper.


----------



## brasewel

Just wondering if anyone here besides Sachu has heard the Liquid Fire and if so any comparisons to other amps you've heard? 
   
   
  Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> The MAD Ear+HD's are not OTL amps. If he's done some modifications to them, then great...but my MAD Ear+HD (with blackgate caps) was not up to the task to fully drive the LCD-2s. Did they sound nice...sure, but they were being held back.






  Frank (DeadEars) has also modified his MAD Ear+HD and the LCD-2 sounded very good through them. It had more than enough power to drive them admirably.


----------



## DeadEars

Thanks for the mention, Brasewel!
   
  I'd be interested to hear about Mike's output transformer modification.  To my mind, that's the biggest limiting factor for the MAD amp, since the stock Hammond transformers go weak in the knees below about 45Hz.  The LCD-2's are capable of much better low end response than the MAD amp can deliver, even though mine is quite nice at all sane listening levels, especially the midrange -- as you've heard at the New Jersey meet last month.
   
  I'd agree with Macedonian Hero that the stock MAD amp can be bettered by many more powerful head amps.  But for those of use who grew up with solder fumes, the MAD amp represents a nice starting point for a pretty good LCD-2 amp, at a lot less $$$ than a Peak/Volcano or Cavelli Liquid Fire!


----------



## oopsydaisy

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> I can't believe I actually completed my first headphone rig.


 

 Enjoy!


----------



## KingStyles

Quote: 





> Just wondering if anyone here besides Sachu has heard the Liquid Fire and if so any comparisons to other amps you've heard?


 
   
  I have heard the liquid fire preproduction and production version. When it comes down to it, if the amp has enough watts to run the cans, it is usually just up to personal taste as being the difference. You need to decide what attributes you want like (warm, analytical, transparent, musical, etc) What is going to be the best amp for 1 person is going to be different for the next. While the LF might have had more musicality, the BA had more transparency. Which is better is up to the listener. It is a very nice amp in both looks and sound and priced nicely for its sound and power it can deliver.


----------



## Equus

Quote: 





brasewel said:


> Just wondering if anyone here besides Sachu has heard the Liquid Fire and if so any comparisons to other amps you've heard?


 

   
  Quote: 





kingstyles said:


> I have heard the liquid fire preproduction and production version. When it comes down to it, if the amp has enough watts to run the cans, it is usually just up to personal taste as being the difference. You need to decide what attributes you want like (warm, analytical, transparent, musical, etc) What is going to be the best amp for 1 person is going to be different for the next. While the LF might have had more musicality, the BA had more transparency. Which is better is up to the listener. It is a very nice amp in both looks and sound and priced nicely for its sound and power it can deliver.


 
   

 I second Josh's point on it being up to personal taste.  I've heard his BA, and spent a decent amount of time with the P/V and preprod LF.  There isn't a one and true holy grail of amps that is going to be "it" for everyone.  I also mostly share Josh's opinion on the LF and BA, and would add the I think the P/V has great strengths in clarity and detail.  Personally, I like the emotional connection and musicality when I'm listening to stuff, so I tend to prioritize that, even over clarity, transparency, and imaging.  The caveat is that there needs to be enough of the latter parts, or you also start losing elements of musicality as well.  I don't like to draw direct comparisons between amps too much, since I think some people tend to read opinion as fact, and it all comes down to the listener anyway.
   
  If you want an opinion about any particular amps I've heard, braswel, or have any particular questions about what I've heard with the LF, feel free to drop me a PM.


----------



## bobcn

Red Wine has partnered with Audeze to produce a balanced amp designed specifically for the LCD-2.

  http://redwineaudio.com/components/audeze_edition


----------



## Permagrin

^ Wow... I would love to audition that. :blink:


----------



## LiqTenExp

yeah we found out about it during the NYC meet this year.  been on the hush till they released it though officially.  I heard it and thought it was not a bad combo.  I have heard a lot of combos with the LCD-2 and think there are many other good options out there too.


----------



## Permagrin

If anything it does have an advantage with portability which would be much appreciable on late summer nights.


----------



## brasewel

I heard the RWA Isabellina at the NY meet and then again at Lee's place and was not at all impressed the second time. I will still give it the benefit of the doubt since it was a prototype but I should be able to hear it at Lee's place again once he gets the production version.


----------



## aurabullet

I've read through so many pages but I haven't gotten much info on whats better
  a Burson 160 or a Meier Concerto for this headphone, anyone know? the retail prices for burson is 699, but I can't find one for the concerto


----------



## zilch0md

Quote: 





aurabullet said:


> I've read through so many pages but I haven't gotten much info on whats better
> a Burson 160 or a Meier Concerto for this headphone, anyone know? the retail prices for burson is 699, but I can't find one for the concerto


 

 I can't answer your question, but the Meier-Audio Corda Concerto is no longer in production.  You would have to buy it used.  
   
  Dr. Meier is releasing new amps this summer, however.
   
  http://www.meier-audio.homepage.t-online.de/amplifiers.htm


----------



## aurabullet

Quote: 





zilch0md said:


> I can't answer your question, but the Meier-Audio Corda Concerto is no longer in production.  You would have to buy it used.
> 
> Dr. Meier is releasing new amps this summer, however.
> 
> http://www.meier-audio.homepage.t-online.de/amplifiers.htm


 
  Coming from the price tags of those, they seem inferior to the HA-160. Then again, price doesn't mean much..


----------



## sphinxvc

Quote:


permagrin said:


> If anything it does have an advantage with portability which would be much appreciable on late summer nights.


 

 My thoughts exactly when I'd heard it was battery powered.  
   
  How illegal would it be to drive with LCD2s and the RWA/Audeze Isabellina on the passenger seat.


----------



## oqvist

Quote: 





aurabullet said:


> Coming from the price tags of those, they seem inferior to the HA-160. Then again, price doesn't mean much..


 

 Yes price is not the best way to rate audio gear


----------



## jackmccabe

Wow $4,900 for that RWA setup, it better do something pretty special.


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





jackmccabe said:


> Wow $4,900 for that RWA setup, it better do something pretty special.


 

 It's $3950 for the amp and $5000 with the LCD-2 bundled in.


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





sphinxvc said:


> Quote:
> 
> My thoughts exactly when I'd heard it was battery powered.
> 
> How illegal would it be to drive with LCD2s and the RWA/Audeze Isabellina on the passenger seat.


 

 I wish it was waterproof, could take it to the beach


----------



## jackmccabe

Quote: 





brasewel said:


> I wish it was waterproof, could take it to the beach


 

 That would be a very funny sight.


----------



## rrrango

Just noticed this tweet from Headfonia:
   
  http://redwineaudio.com/components/audeze_edition
   
  I promptly called Vinnie and he went through a very lengthy explanation that this has been a thorough collaboration between him, Ken, and Alex to put together an optimum DAC/Amp combo for the LCD2s.  For 4k, you get a Amp/DAC, plus a 4 pin XLR balanced 6 foot cable and a custom carrying case that will fit everything, including the headphones in a water tight package (I imagine similar to the carrying case for just the headphones).  This will be a very interesting tube rolling option. 
   
  Delivery times are scheduled for late June as they are putting the finishing touches on the DAC boards and the only potential delay will be on the carrying case.  It's all pretty ironic as I will physically be in NYC, just one state over from RWA in CT, but will probably opt for shipping directly to Taiwan.
   
  I have already put my order in.  It's going to be great.


----------



## Vinnie R.

Quote: 





brasewel said:


> I heard the RWA Isabellina at the NY meet and then again at Lee's place and was not at all impressed the second time. I will still give it the benefit of the doubt since it was a prototype but I should be able to hear it at Lee's place again once he gets the production version.


 


  Hi brasewel,
   
  I promise you that what you heard at Lee's meet is not what the Audez'e Edition sounds like.  I had an HPA and whipped together the balanced stage while Lee waited here a few days before the meet.  It had the V-caps of the HPA (but I do not like them in the Audeze Edition and do not use them).  The Audeze Edition sounds more like you guys heard at the NY meet when I met you and Lee:
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/441696/red-wine-audio-isabellina-hpa/30#post_7350833
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/437559/isabellina-hpa-owner-s-thread-and-impressions/420#post_7396948
   
  But even better!  It's been refined even more - and Alex (Audeze) and Ken (ALO) have it just the way we want it!
   
  Once we ship, Lee will receive his baby and I hope you can give it a listen!
   
  All the best,
   
  Vinnie


----------



## sphinxvc

Even better?  Awesome.  Though I'm not really an LCD-2 fan I must concede that to date, your prototype at the NY meet remains the best I've heard out of those cans.


----------



## Vinnie R.

Quote: 





sphinxvc said:


> Even better?  Awesome.  Though I'm not really an LCD-2 fan I must concede that to date, your prototype at the NY meet remains the best I've heard out of those cans.


 

 Hi sphinxvc,
   
  Thanks - and yes - more better-er  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Cheers!
   
  Vinnie


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





vinnie r. said:


> Hi brasewel,
> 
> I promise you that what you heard at Lee's meet is not what the Audez'e Edition sounds like.  I had an HPA and whipped together the balanced stage while Lee waited here a few days before the meet.  It had the V-caps of the HPA (but I do not like them in the Audeze Edition and do not use them).  The Audeze Edition sounds more like you guys heard at the NY meet when I met you and Lee:
> 
> ...


 

  That's awesome. It did sound incredible at the NY meet. I'm a little confused though. Will Lee be getting the Audeze version or the regular Isabellina? There also seems to be a price difference of $1000 between the two so what does the Audeze version offer over the regular?


----------



## fomoz

i'm assuming it's $3000 without headphones... ouch O_o


----------



## fomoz

bobcn said:


> Red Wine has partnered with Audeze to produce a balanced amp designed specifically for the LCD-2.
> 
> http://redwineaudio.com/components/audeze_edition




i'm assuming it's $3000 without headphones... ouch O_o is it possible to get it without a DAC?


----------



## sphinxvc

^ It's $4K for just the unit.  As far as I know, you can't remove components from the Audeze version.  The Isabellina HPA you can add/remove components like balanced stage or DAC.  
   
  I don't think pricing is bad.  As I said before the one at the NY meet was spectacular.  And plenty of people on head-fi have $2K sources paired with $2K amps.


----------



## grokit

At $4900 with the headphones that's the best deal, as they are throwing in a $500 cable.


----------



## Paganini Alfredo

I'm having a hard time imagining that my single ended setup is inferior to this fancy-schmancy balanced, fine tuned rig...


----------



## sphinxvc

Well according to what Vinnie just said the one we heard at the Pennsylvania meet was just an HPA with balanced stage, as opposed to the one at the NY meet which was the Audeze Edition's prototype (I think).  Between the two the difference was stark.


----------



## dagothur

Quote: 





sphinxvc said:


> Between the two the difference was stark.


 

 Is it $1500 stark?


----------



## tme110

The biggest thing I have with th e RWA setup is that the RWA DAC is still 16 bit.  I'm sure it sounds awesome and I'd love to hear their R2R impletentation but now that itunes and others are rumored to me moving to 24 bit it seems like a large shortfall.


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





dagothur said:


> Is it $1500 stark?


 

 More like $3k+ stark


----------



## franklyshankly

Not to distract too much from RWA drooling, I just have a quick DAC question, since source seems to be as important as power for LCD2.
   
  Would the NFB2 be considered a decent DAC for the LCD2s? I'm having a hard time finding the right DAC since my budget it limited. I'm going to be using USB 100% of the time, so while I COULD afford something like the  EE Minimax or Digital Link III, the NFB2 seems to get really great reviews, specifically for the USB performance.
   
  I'm going to be using a vintage Sansui amp (not sure which model, its in my folks storage space. They bought it new in Korea, so it's a family heirloom!), so I have no clue how to synergize with it. Any thoughts?
  Would the NFB2 be "good enough" for the LCD2s?
  Thanks!


----------



## USAudio

Quote: 





tme110 said:


> The biggest thing I have with th e RWA setup is that the RWA DAC is still 16 bit.  I'm sure it sounds awesome and I'd love to hear their R2R impletentation but now that itunes and others are rumored to me moving to 24 bit it seems like a large shortfall.


 
  Like you, I didn't care for their 16-bit only DAC implementation, but according to the website here: http://redwineaudio.com/components/audeze_edition
  " Included Isabellina Pro DAC offers choice of high-resolution (24/192k) or NOS Red Book playback, with the flip of a switch "
   
  With Isabellina Pro DAC described as:
  "
 Two digital-to-analog chips on a single board. One optimized for high-resolution playback. One optimized for Red Book playback.   Upgrade available for previous versions.

 High-resolution d/a conversion via premium 24/192k Wolfson DAC chip
 Red Book conversion via our tried-and-true 16-bit, NOS Isabellina design
 Toggle between the two converters by simply flipping a switch
 High-res converter also supports 16-bit, so you can choose between two “sonic flavors” for Red Book playback
 Analog signal from both converters is further enhanced by our tube stage
 Supports 3 digital inputs (USB, Coax, and Optical)
 
  "


----------



## dagothur

Quote: 





brasewel said:


> More like $3k+ stark


 
  The difference between the HPA and Audeze edition is $1500 for the units alone.


----------



## brasewel

I know I was just being sarcastic.


----------



## tme110

oh wow, so they've changed DAC setups.  I'm guessing they're no longer using the R2R that was giving them their famous sound?  But I guess I should have looked at their site one last time before I posted. 
   
  The switch part is unusual though.  Though  AVS (or AVA I don't remember) had an internal jumper on their original DAC.
  
  Quote: 





usaudio said:


> Like you, I didn't care for their 16-bit only DAC implementation, but according to the website here: http://redwineaudio.com/components/audeze_edition
> " Included Isabellina Pro DAC offers choice of high-resolution (24/192k) or NOS Red Book playback, with the flip of a switch "
> 
> With Isabellina Pro DAC described as:
> ...


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





tme110 said:


> oh wow, so they've changed DAC setups.  I'm guessing they're no longer using the R2R that was giving them their famous sound?  But I guess I should have looked at their site one last time before I posted.
> 
> The switch part is unusual though.  Though  AVS (or AVA I don't remember) had an internal jumper on their original DAC.


 


  So you're saying that neither of the 16-bit redbook options on the Pro are the same as the original Isabellina's 16-bit conversion?


----------



## tme110

I don't know.  I've been looking at thier web page and it looks like at least the 16bit is the same - it would be logical for the whole solution to be the same from an engineering and production aspect but their DAC implementationis a complex, hardware intensive one and it seems like it would be a challenge to just make it also 24 bit.  Unlike using a Saber chip they have to add all the extra external circuitry to support the extra 8 bits which seem like a challenging update.  Though RWA has always been secretive about their DAC.  It's pretty impressive that they can fit that DAC, the HPA, P/S, battery, etc in that little package AND have it balanced!!??  Seems too good to be true - but it still costs more than my peak/volcano and audio-gd DAC so it's out of my reach.  I'm hoping to finally get to hear a leben next weekend and after that RWA is next on my must audition list.


----------



## sphinxvc

Quote:


dagothur said:


> Is it $1500 stark?


 
    
  Quote:
   


dagothur said:


> The difference between the HPA and Audeze edition is $1500 for the units alone.


 
   
   
   The difference between Isabellina HPA with DAC and balanced stage versus the Audeze Edition is $450.  $450 stark?  Yes.


----------



## dagothur

Quote: 





sphinxvc said:


> Quote:
> 
> The difference between Isabellina HPA with DAC and balanced stage versus the Audeze Edition is $450.  $450 stark?  Yes.


 

 I didn't see the option to add extra stuff.  I was under the assumption the HPA was an amp/dac combo already.


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





sphinxvc said:


> Quote:


 
   
   The difference between Isabellina HPA with DAC and balanced stage versus the Audeze Edition is $450.  $450 stark?  Yes.  

 If you add the Pro Dac the difference is $450. If you go with the regular dac its $950


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





tme110 said:


> I don't know.  I've been looking at thier web page and it looks like at least the 16bit is the same - it would be logical for the whole solution to be the same from an engineering and production aspect but their DAC implementationis a complex, hardware intensive one and it seems like it would be a challenge to just make it also 24 bit.  Unlike using a Saber chip they have to add all the extra external circuitry to support the extra 8 bits which seem like a challenging update.  Though RWA has always been secretive about their DAC.  It's pretty impressive that they can fit that DAC, the HPA, P/S, battery, etc in that little package AND have it balanced!!??  Seems too good to be true - but it still costs more than my peak/volcano and audio-gd DAC so it's out of my reach.  I'm hoping to finally get to hear a leben next weekend and after that RWA is next on my must audition list.


 

 You may be surprised that you like the Apex P/V more than the Leben. Atleast that's what I thought after listening to both of them.


----------



## sphinxvc

Quote:




  If you add the Pro Dac the difference is $450. If you go with the regular dac its $950

   
   
   


   

 Oh.  So confusing!


----------



## zilch0md

Quote: 





sphinxvc said:


> Quote:
> 
> My thoughts exactly when I'd heard it was battery powered.
> 
> How illegal would it be to drive with LCD2s and the RWA/Audeze Isabellina on the passenger seat.


 
   
  Driving with headphones on is legal in Texas.  Yeeehaw!
   
  But the LCD-2s are too open to road noise...   Bummer!


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





sphinxvc said:


> Quote:
> 
> Oh.  So confusing!


 
   
  I agree, they should give their website a tune-up as far as sorting out the what the product options are, and their respective prices.


----------



## Zinterax

Just received a Violectric V200 to replace my M-Stage. More POWER.
   
  Now I just need to sort out what DAC to fit in to replace my DacMagic.


----------



## Vinnie R.

All,
   
   
  Quote: 





> I don't know.  I've been looking at thier web page and it looks like at least the 16bit is the same - it would be logical for the whole solution to be the same from an engineering and production aspect but their DAC implementationis a complex,


 
   
   
  The new Isabellina Pro dac comes standard with the Audez'e Edition amplifier.  It is our tried-and-trued Isabellina dac (with the 16-bit NOS dac, discrete, Class-A FET output stage, 3 digital inputs) - but it also has another d/a converter chip - a premium Wolfson 24-bit / 192kHz.  Yes, the board is only 3" x 3", but we also improved the layout and make the signal paths shorter and cleaner, and with the flip of a switch, you can switch between the two d/a converts (no matter if you are playing high resolution or Redbook files).  No matter which d/a converter chip is chosen, the output is fed to the tube stage, and then passes to the all-new balanced headphone output stage.  
   
   
   
  Quote: 





> I agree, they should give their website a tune-up as far as sorting out the what the product options are, and their respective prices.


 
   
  Regarding the options and pricing for the Isabellina HPA LFP-V Edition (not the Audez'e Edition), on the website you simply click the box with the option you want (or want to see pricing on), and the total price is updated. 
   
   
  For the Audez'e Edition Headphone System - it includes the Audez'e LCD-2 heaphones, Audez'e Edition Amplifier, the new ALO Audio Audez'e 4-pin Balanced XLR cable. and a custom carrying case to hold everything (including the LFP battery charger).   This must be purchased from Audez'e (they will be updating their website shortly), or ALO Audio.
   
  For those interested and already have the LCD-2s, the system (everything mentioned above except the LCD-2s since you already have them) must be purchased through Red Wine Audio.
   
  Hope this clarifies things,
   
  Vinnie


----------



## grokit

Thanks for the update Vinnie, this is definitely a drool-worthy cutting edge package, probably the best transportable rig ever!
   
  I didn't mean anything bad about the web site, the pages are very informative and nicely laid out but it is much easier to understand the options available when you click on the RWA Components link to expose the Components Overview summary at the top of a given page within that section. You may be better served if that overview summary was permanently exposed as you have to click on that link a second time to get to the actual overview page which is not very intuitive, especially if you are coming from a product page and not the home page. I found that page by changing the URL rather that clicking to it.
   
  Is the case of the same style as Audeze's travel case? It would be great to see a picture of it, especially with with the gear.


----------



## LiqTenExp

My new favorite combo with the LCD-2:
   
  Computer w/optical 96/24 out
  Foobar2000
  PS Audio Digital Link III DAC (using optical)
  Lyr w/IEC 6DJ8 Mullard tubes
  Norse Audio 4 conductor
   
  The LYR has never sounded better.


----------



## Wedge

I wouldn't say that I have a favorite combo per se, but I do very much enjoy listening to the LCD-2 from my Leben.  I just got my WA-5 back and really, it reminded me the magic in the midrange of a good SET amplifier.  Others have said they weren't fond of the WA-5 and the LCD-2.  I think the TRS port is under powered but the K1K port is not, unfortunately it is a little noisy but on mine you really can't hear it while the music is playing.  The Apex P/V might be my favorite listen on the LCD-2, when I really want to sit down and listen for a while.


----------



## Bolardito

Hi everyone. I'm really tempted to get the LCD-2 however I don't want to spend a ton of money getting a DAC and amp. I currently own a Lisa 3 amp with the LLP power supply combo so I would be pairing the LCD2 with this amp and an Ipod Classic and CLAS as source. So I have two questions that hopefully someone can help me answering:
   
  1. Is the Lisa 3 with the LLP capable of driving the LCD2?
  2. If someone have tried this combo, is there a good sinergy between the LCD2 and the Lisa 3?
   
  This would be my firtst full size can. I have a long history with IEM's and currently I use the Lisa 3 with my JH13 Pro and I´m waiting for the JH3A system. However I wonder how much am I missing by only using IEMS.
   
  Thanks a lot for any help (advise) you can provide me!


----------



## zilch0md

Hi Bolardito!
   
  I'm going to respond to your question on the Portable amp for LCD2 thread. 
   
  See you over there...  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Mike


----------



## Permagrin

^
via 'search this thread' button found under the thread title ^, one post returned:



dallan said:


> My other amps as reference points are: Eddie Current Zana Duex, Musical Fidelity XCAN V3 with XPSU, and Triad Audio Lisa lll.
> 
> V200 was much fuller sounding and drove both phones much better than the *Lisa lll*.  V200 had a much better midrange than the xcan and had less boomy/flubby bass as well.  So the bass really cleaned up and the midrange sang. [...]


----------



## jackmccabe

Quote: 





bolardito said:


> Hi everyone. I'm really tempted to get the LCD-2 however I don't want to spend a ton of money getting a DAC and amp. I currently own a Lisa 3 amp with the LLP power supply combo so I would be pairing the LCD2 with this amp and an Ipod Classic and CLAS as source. So I have two questions that hopefully someone can help me answering:
> 
> 1. Is the Lisa 3 with the LLP capable of driving the LCD2?
> 2. If someone have tried this combo, is there a good sinergy between the LCD2 and the Lisa 3?
> ...


 

 The Lisa drove the lcd-2's perfectly, it was completely neutral and transparent and did not add/subtract anything from the sound.
  I personally would be completely happy with the Lisa as my main amp forever (although a bit bulky and expensive for me).
  I have found that all solid state amps I have tried that are well suited to the job sound the same.
  Also I don't think you are missing much with the jh13's, but I just prefer full size both for sound and comfort.


----------



## Bolardito

Thanks a lot for your response. I think I'm ready to pull the trigger!


----------



## tme110

That would be great.  I'm actually not looking to upgrade at all and the Leben is way too big for me but certain discriptions of it have really appealed to me.  It's always fun trying out new gear!
  
  Quote: 





brasewel said:


> You may be surprised that you like the Apex P/V more than the Leben. Atleast that's what I thought after listening to both of them.


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





tme110 said:


> That would be great.  I'm actually not looking to upgrade at all and the Leben is way too big for me but certain discriptions of it have really appealed to me.  It's always fun trying out new gear!


 

 The Leben might be a little more musical. It sounds a little more tubey and has a softer touch to the music. It responds pretty well to tube rolling and is a great speaker amp as well.


----------



## tme110

Is there really a difference between 1.5 watts and 2?
  
  Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## MacedonianHero

tme110 said:


> Is there really a difference between 1.5 watts and 2?




When talking to Todd at TTVJ, I specifically asked him how many Watts the P/V would put into 50 ohms, and the answer was 700mW. Not saying I'm 100% in agreement with this number, though I wish they would post it on the product specifications of the website. So there is a difference between 0.7W and 2 W. But the more watts the better...especially for orthos (and my HE-6s).


----------



## rmilewsk

Well,
   
  Like alot of people I read up to about page 120 on this thread and then my brain exploded out of my eyeballs.
   
  I just bought the LCD 2's and they sound great. I also bought the burson HA 160 with them. I like the sound of the amp but it sounds just a tad heavy and soft to me. Like a girl you really like but is 10-15 pounds overweight, I want to put this amp on a diet. But not too much of a diet. I want some extra energy and punch but not too much. Just a bit.
   
  Are there any suggestions. I'm willing to go up to $2500 or even a bit higher for the amp.


----------



## tme110

I'm sure you know that puts you past apex peak/volcano territory


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote: 





bobcn said:


> Red Wine has partnered with Audeze to produce a balanced amp designed specifically for the LCD-2.
> 
> http://redwineaudio.com/components/audeze_edition


 

 Funny, but I thought the old Isabellina HPA was already one of the best amps with the LCD-2 at RMAF 2010.  And here they go trying to improve on success.


----------



## Windsor

Has anyone here tried the LCD-2 with the Lavry DA10?


----------



## USAudio

Quote: 





windsor said:


> Has anyone here tried the LCD-2 with the Lavry DA10?


 
  I have with the DA11, which I believe has an almost identical headphone section, and it sounds fine to me.  I believe it outputs about .75 W RMS with the LCD-2's, which some would consider minimal for the LCD-2s, but to me it seem to have plenty of resolution and power, doesn't sound strained at all.  The Lavry is all about transparency and accuracy, if you want something more "musical" then a tube amp might be more appropriate.


----------



## WilCox

Quote:


tme110 said:


> Is there really a difference between 1.5 watts and 2?


 

 The difference is negligible.  Power is logarithmic.  For a perceived doubling of the loudness you would need a 10X increase in power.
   
   

 *dB Change* *Voltage* *Power* *Loudness* 3 1.4X 2X 1.23X 6 2.0 4.0 1.52 10 3.16 10 2 20 10 100 4 40 100 10,000 16


----------



## tme110

that was my exactly my point actually - numbers are always better though!  I was assuming mac-hero was  familiar - and he was using a different set of numbers.


----------



## MacedonianHero

tme110 said:


> that was my exactly my point actually - numbers are always better though!  I was assuming mac-hero was  familiar - and he was using a different set of numbers.




Regardless, 1, 1.5 or even 2W....not ideal for driving HE-6s. The LCD-2s are another story, but my experiences show that the more power you can pump into orthos, the better. There is more to sound quality than just "loudness". The more power you can pump into the LCD-2s and the HE-6s, the more they will reward you. Loudness is more of a function of an amp's gain. 

Again, my 700mW quote was from Todd (TTVJ) directly., so as you pointed out, my numbers were 2W vs. 700mW. It would be nice if the actual specs were published on the amp on the website.


----------



## Wedge

I don't necessarily agree with the fact that more power is better, in all cases.  I also don't see the advantage of having a published specification.  Next time I talk to Todd I will ask him to publish the correct numbers on his webpage.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  We be sitting hear judging amps by there specs, if that is the case buy a WA-5 and use the K1K port you get around 6W out of it @ 50 ohms, and 300B magic midrange to boot.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





wedge said:


> I don't necessarily agree with the fact that more power is better, in all cases.  I also don't see the advantage of having a published specification.  Next time I talk to Todd I will ask him to publish the correct numbers on his webpage.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I feel the same way about the graph that comes with the LCD's.  I'd rather not see it.


----------



## grokit

I think that the HE-6, like the K701 to a lesser degree, responds well to a high level of gain as well as a high level of power. The LCD-2s not so much. That's what my ears are telling me anyways.


----------



## MacedonianHero

No doubt the he6s respond to more power, but the LCD-2s do as well, though not to the same extent.

I found a good improvement wrt treble response and wider soundstaging with the Audeze headphones. The LCD-2s sound really good from my 700mW ish Concerto, but with my more powerful amps, they do improve to my ears. Again, not to the same extent as my HE6s, but enough for me to notice.


----------



## MacedonianHero

wedge said:


> I don't necessarily agree with the fact that more power is better, in all cases.  I also don't see the advantage of having a published specification.  Next time I talk to Todd I will ask him to publish the correct numbers on his webpage.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I think power and gain is indeed important to publish. If you were buying a pickup for hauling loads, wouldn't you want to know the horserpower and torque to make sure what you were purchasing was appropriate for your requirements?


----------



## grokit

Everyone wants the headphone/amp equation to be simple, form the manufacturers to the customers. The problem is that it isn't.


----------



## MacedonianHero

grokit said:


> Everyone wants the headphone/amp equation to be simple, form the manufacturers to the customers. The problem is that it isn't.




Absolutely it's not simple , but some basics can help one rule out certain amps, or alternatively consider others they haven't thought of before. Ultimately once one has settled on a few options based on their search (power, gain, output impedance, balanced vs. SE, etc...), then one's ears should be included in the final judgement.


----------



## Wedge

I'm just saying its not completely fair to say an amp sounds better because it is more powerful.  It could really just be that the amp sounds better.  I don't think buying a pick up is a good analogy to picking audio equipment.  I have pretty inefficient bookshelf speakers I use with a 15Wx2 Leben, which IMO sound excellent, and get driven to reasonable levels.  You stated previously that loudness is a function of gain, but its a function of both gain and power.  You certainly need to have the gain to support the output power.  Todd, tried a different approach to selling his amp rather than posting specs, he had a loaner program, perhaps he felt that hearing was more believing.  I have seen a lot of headphone amps that don't post specs but are generally well regarded, one such example is Ray Samuels Apache.  He says that he can drive up to 18V, but how do you know he has the current sourcing capability to back that 18V drive into 50 ohms?  Depending on how you want to see it 18V p-p so that is what 12.8V rms that's about 3.3W rms, but he needs to be able to source at least 260 mA.  It may or may not be able to, in Class A.  Vendors aren't always clear about peak vs. RMS power, which absolutely makes a big difference, there is no telling that the amp will have enough gain to even utilize the power it has, in some cases the designs I have encountered have been poor enough that they had decent output power but the input gain stage saturated before the amp could use the power it had, etc.


----------



## MacedonianHero

wedge said:


> I'm just saying its not completely fair to say an amp sounds better because it is more powerful.  It could really just be that the amp sounds better.  I don't think buying a pick up is a good analogy to picking audio equipment.  I have pretty inefficient bookshelf speakers I use with a 15Wx2 Leben, which IMO sound excellent, and get driven to reasonable levels.  You stated previously that loudness is a function of gain, but its a function of both gain and power.  You certainly need to have the gain to support the output power.  Todd, tried a different approach to selling his amp rather than posting specs, he had a loaner program, perhaps he felt that hearing was more believing.  I have seen a lot of headphone amps that don't post specs but are generally well regarded, one such example is Ray Samuels Apache.  He says that he can drive up to 18V, but how do you know he has the current sourcing capability to back that 18V drive into 50 ohms?  Depending on how you want to see it 18V p-p so that is what 12.8V rms that's about 3.3W rms, but he needs to be able to source at least 260 mA.  It may or may not be able to, in Class A.  Vendors aren't always clear about peak vs. RMS power, which absolutely makes a big difference, there is no telling that the amp will have enough gain to even utilize the power it has, in some cases the designs I have encountered have been poor enough that they had decent output power but the input gain stage saturated before the amp could use the power it had, etc.




I agree power is not everything, but it still is an important factor when powering orthos (again, my experiences with my amps ). There are other factors like synergy with a particular pair of headphones, amount of voltage / current swings that can be supplied, etc. Some have had issues with the LCD-2's laid back treble and closed in sound staging (as I did to a small extent when I first got them), but with 4W (40 V P-P) from my Lyr (and CV2492 tubes) or Pioneer Elite home theater receiver (headphone jack and pigtail adapters), those "issues" have long since disappeared. 

Again, I want to stress that my LCD-2s still sound remarkably amazing from my Concerto and WA2, it's just that the improvements given by my other "cheaper" yet more powerful (and appropriate) amps have lead me to my conclusions...again YMMV.


----------



## n3rdling

Quote: 





wedge said:


> I'm just saying its not completely fair to say an amp sounds better because it is more powerful.  It could really just be that the amp sounds better.


 


  Bingo.  After a certain point power doesn't matter with the headphones.  They're not going to magically suck up power they aren't using.


----------



## MacedonianHero

n3rdling said:


> Bingo.  After a certain point power doesn't matter with the headphones.  They're not going to magically suck up power they aren't using.




Very true with dynamic headphones....orthos can sure suck up a lot of power though. That is the extent of my point.


----------



## Duckman

Another quick thumbs up for the Leben CS600 pairing. Stunning!
   
  I had half an hour A/B against my Violectric V200 last Tuesday.
   
  The 600 clearly had superior staging, instrument separation and instrumental/vocal timbre. I certainly preferred it.
   
  However, the V200 was not far off at all. For me, it was 'close enough'. Enough to discourage me investing so much for such a small upgrade.


----------



## brasewel

Were stock tubes used in the Leben? It responds very well to tube rolling.
  I thought the Leben was a little more musical and lush than my Apache but I still preferred my rig to it. It's a great speaker amp so most people get it to power speakers as well.


----------



## Wedge

Too each his own.  I prefer my rig.


----------



## pp312

The important thing is that you wrote "his" own and not "their" own. Good grammar is its own reward, no matter what amp you're using.


----------



## Wedge

Perhaps I should use his/her next time.


----------



## MHinGA

Quote: 





pp312 said:


> The important thing is that you wrote "his" own and not "their" own. *Good grammar is its own reward*, no matter what amp you're using.


 

 But bad grammer is OK also. It doesn't effect peoples view of you and also using the "right" words aren't that important. Also spelling is overated. Its not that important either. If people want to be judgemental thats there problem.


----------



## sphinxvc

Quote:


mhinga said:


> But bad grammer is OK also. It doesn't effect peoples view of you and also using the "right" words aren't that important. *Also spelling is overated*. Its not that important either. If people want to be judgemental thats there problem.


 

 overrated*


----------



## MrQ

Quote: 





mhinga said:


> But bad *grammer* is OK also. It doesn't effect peoples view of you and also using the "right" words aren't that important. Also spelling is overated. Its not that important either. If people want to be judgemental *thats* *there* problem.


 

 Grammar, that's their.


----------



## sphinxvc

^ I spy 8 grammatical/spelling errors in that post. 
   
  PS, you forgot affect/effect.


----------



## brasewel

Haha I love this turn of events.


----------



## Ynoskire

A bad use of grammar is propably the language of the future. Language has been simplified over the ages.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





ynoskire said:


> A bad use of grammar is propably the language of the future. Language has been simplified over the ages.


 


  You must mean that language has been corrupted over the ages.  In this case, "ages" equates to about one generation, (~40 yesrs).


----------



## KevinWolff

Down to 3 choices for my new desktop amp. Peak/Volcano, WA22, or the Liquid fire. Decisions, decisions. I've heard none by the way, this is all based on reviews. I like a more thick bottom end. I'm using the sr-71A with my D1 right now. I still like the Ray Samuels sound, but the D1 is quite neutral, and I think I need at least a hybrid if not a full tube amp in the chain. I like resolution and treble extension to a degree, but am more a fan of rolled off, oops, excuse me, recessed highs. I find the lcd-2 to have plenty of treble and mids for my tastes. Probably ALO copper/silver on the cable. Any suggestions?


----------



## Ynoskire

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> You must mean that language has been corrupted over the ages.  In this case, "ages" equates to about one generation, (~40 yesrs).


 

 Nope, language has been simplified over the ages. For instance, dutch is a descendant of the gothic language. Gothic featured eight (!) "naamvallen" (i'm sorry, I don't know the english term for this, eight different varieties of the nominative, accusative, genitive etc. to signify stuff). Which is absolutely ludicrious when compared to modern day dutch which features... two. Language has been simplified over the course of ages and this is likely to continue. Words like "the" and "a" are meaningless and and therefore superfluous, they will propably disapear over time.


----------



## Windsor

(see next post)


----------



## Windsor

Quote:Originally Posted by *Windsor*
  Has anyone here heard the LCD-2 with the neutral-sounding Lavry DA10?
   
  ****
   
  Originally Posted by *USAudio* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
  I have with the DA11, which I believe has an almost identical headphone section, and it sounds fine to me.  I believe it outputs about .75 W RMS with the LCD-2's, which some would consider minimal for the LCD-2s, but to me it seem to have plenty of resolution and power, doesn't sound strained at all.  The Lavry is all about transparency and accuracy, if you want something more "musical" then a tube amp might be more appropriate.
   
  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
   

   
  Thanks, USAudio.  When you say "musical," what do you mean? Do you mean 'coloured'?
   
  I have a Lavry DA10 and enjoy it with the Sennheiser HD 600/650/HD 25. The HD 600 has an even frequency balance and the overall character of them seems to be slightly brighter than natural; the timbre of music with the HD 650 sounds more natural and their soundstage is wonderful, and perhaps the only thing I'd like with the HD 650 is more visceral bass impact (PRaT), to make the impact of what I'm hearing closer to hearing a live performance or listening to top quality studio monitors. I'd still love to hear the LCD-2 to hear how they compare...
   
  Further to what you said about ''musical'', I've been finding that I'm able to just hear the music with any of my phones/equipment phones; whenever I get used to the sound signature and forget about it, then the music just reveals herself. Basically, it seems that my inner dialogue about is the only thing that takes me away from just hearing the music, and when my mind's clear, I just enjoy the music no matter what I'm listening to. 
   
  I guess what I'm looking for, LCD-2 or otherwise, is quicker access to just hearing the music, and perhaps a more pleasing/natural sound signature, which is obviously subjective. I'm aware that there will be always positives/negatives if I think about anything, such is the nature of a balanced mind-set, but when I accept what I have I'm more peaceful and hear the music more.


----------



## MHinGA

You missed two other intentional misspellings in my post.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  Quote: 





sphinxvc said:


> Quote:
> 
> overrated*


----------



## MHinGA

You missed my intentional misuse of two other homophones.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  Quote: 





mrq said:


> Grammar, that's their.


----------



## MHinGA

Intentional, my friend.
  
  Quote: 





sphinxvc said:


> ^ I spy 8 grammatical/spelling errors in that post.
> 
> PS, you forgot affect/effect.


----------



## Permagrin

mhinga said:


> You missed two other intentional misspellings in my post.






mhinga said:


> You missed my intentional misuse of two other homophones.






mhinga said:


> Intentional, my friend.
> <




Riiiight. :rolleyes:


----------



## MHinGA

^ You're just messin' with me now... or should I have said "your" as so many do these days? My "genius" satire was intended to point out errors that I see every day in places like this website. I'm dating myself, but when I went to school we got flunked for mistakes like the ones that I put in my post. 
   
  Now allow me to mess with you: can you find the two other intentional misspellings in my post? Can you find the two other incorrect homophones in my post?


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





mhinga said:


> But bad grammer is OK also. It doesn't effect *peoples* view of you and also using the "right" words aren't that important. Also spelling is overated. *Its* not that important either. If people want to be judgemental *thats* there problem.


 
   
  I don't see any more homophones or misspellings, but sentence structure aside there's three punctuation errors; apostrophes are missing on the bolded words above. One outside the s, two on the inside.


----------



## Permagrin

"But bad grammer is OK also. It doesn't effect peoples view of you and also using the "right" words aren't that important. Also spelling is overated. Its not that important either. If people want to be judgemental thats there problem."

Not counting grammar or overrated:

judgmental - such an illogical spelling I always thought.

I think that was it right? I mean OK is often caught by spell-check that I've used so I use okay instead (ironically not caught by this spell-check ).

effect should be affect (which was mentioned earlier but you did not quote)

I don't see any other homophones.

I'm in your camp really. Even though my grammar is far from the standard, ending sentences with prepositions and such, I feel that in this medium we should try to be as precise as possible if we want to get our meaning across (unless of course, at those times, when we don't want to be precise ). I was going to use a speaking analogy to make a point but realised that it would only further prove the arguement of the other camp, unfortunately.

Can you find the misspelling in my last paragraph?


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





permagrin said:


> "But bad grammer is OK also. It doesn't effect peoples view of you and also using the "right" words aren't that important. Also spelling is overated. Its not that important either. If people want to be judgemental thats there problem."
> 
> Not counting grammar or overrated:
> 
> ...


 

 Wow, I've been misspelling "judgemental" for a long time 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  But I'm okay with OK


----------



## Permagrin

Also hate how seemingly 99% of the internet thinks that "Your a looser" is spelled correctly. It's not like they don't have immediate access to proof their messages. :rolleyes:


----------



## Permagrin

grokit said:


> *Wow, I've been misspelling "judgemental" for a long time*
> 
> 
> 
> ...




lol me too. 

Actually I recall learning the proper spelling in school (spelling bees) but forgot up until a few years ago since the internet is so prevalent. I usually spell things phonetically logical, or as logical as my mind works anyway...


----------



## Yoga

Regarding the simplification of language, let's hope it doesn't lead to _"Amp performance: doubleplusgood"_ 
   
Hint: Orwell
   
  Anyone auditioned one of these?
   
  http://www.fidelityaudio.co.uk/hpa-200
   
  Looks promising.


----------



## Permagrin

If simplification of language would increase information density I'd be all for it. It's bad enough as is though.


----------



## Yoga

Quote: 





permagrin said:


> If simplification of language would increase information density I'd be all for it. It's bad enough as is though.


 

 In the right context, perhaps. I very much enjoy the use of rich language as a form of creative expression.


----------



## Windsor

Mis-spelling can be OK, too. As lnog as the frsit and lsat ltetres of wrods are included, yuor barin wlil do the rset.


----------



## Loevhagen

Are you bashing the non-native speaking English members here?!


----------



## sphinxvc

I've been misspelling judgmental as well.  
   
  So we're at 9 errors.
  MHinGA, I suspected it might be intentional.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Quote: 





yoga said:


> Regarding the simplification of language, let's hope it doesn't lead to _"Amp performance: doubleplusgood"_


 
   

   
  Ah, yes.  Timely reference.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Goodthinkful.


----------



## Permagrin

windsor said:


> Mis-spelling can be OK, too. As lnog as the frsit and lsat ltetres of wrods are included, yuor barin wlil do the rset.




Consequently lazy brains paved the way for Freudian reading comprehension failures.

It's bad enough that most expressions can be inferred as sexual double entendres but c'mon. It almost makes me believe that reality was created by an intelligent, albeit horny, progenitor.


----------



## sphinxvc

^ Lol.


----------



## Yoga

> Ah, yes.  Timely reference.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  :¬)


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





ynoskire said:


> Nope, language has been simplified over the ages. For instance, dutch is a descendant of the gothic language. Gothic featured eight (!) "naamvallen" (i'm sorry, I don't know the english term for this, eight different varieties of the nominative, accusative, genitive etc. to signify stuff). Which is absolutely ludicrious when compared to modern day dutch which features... two. Language has been simplified over the course of ages and this is likely to continue. Words like "the" and "a" are meaningless and and therefore superfluous, they will propably disapear over time.


 

 I understand what you're saying, but I feel there's a rather significant difference between the in-formalization and familiarization that you're referring to as opposed to the lazy and degenerate misuse of the english language that is so prevalent today.  A prime example of what I'm referring to is the illiterate misuse of "their," "there," and "they're," or the misuse of "your" and "you're," or "to," "too," and "two." 
   
  Cheers!


----------



## grokit

Whether formal languages are evolving into something more efficient or just degrading in effectiveness is up for debate, but it was entirely predictable. My rhetorical discourse professor was lamenting this back in the 80's, decrying the influence of pop culture. He predicted that the advent of electronic communications (email was a new concept then) would accelerate the problem and it has. His main focus was efficiency in written communications, so it's not like he was opposed to shortening things up.
   
  Has anyone noticed how formal and sophisticated spoken English is in modern movies depicting the old west, like the Deadwood series and the new True Grit film? This "de-evolution" of language has been going on for some time, ironically as literacy rates continue to rise.


----------



## dagothur

So hey, how about those LCD-2s guys?


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





grokit said:


> Whether formal languages are evolving into something more efficient or just degrading in effectiveness is up for debate, but it was entirely predictable. My rhetorical discourse professor was lamenting this back in the 80's, decrying the influence of pop culture. He predicted that the advent of electronic communications (email was a new concept then) would accelerate the problem and it has. His main focus was efficiency in written communications, so it's not like he was opposed to shortening things up.
> 
> Has anyone noticed how formal and sophisticated spoken English is in modern movies depicting the old west, like the Deadwood series and the new True Grit film? This "de-evolution" of language has been going on for some time, ironically as literacy rates continue to rise.


 
  Where is literacy on the rise?


----------



## Ynoskire

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> I understand what you're saying, but I feel there's a rather significant difference between the in-formalization and familiarization that you're referring to as opposed to the lazy and degenerate misuse of the english language that is so prevalent today.  A prime example of what I'm referring to is the illiterate misuse of "their," "there," and "they're," or the misuse of "your" and "you're," or "to," "too," and "two."
> 
> Cheers!


 
  Ok, we've been talking about two different things then. The bad spelling is mostly an internet problem, at least, that's the way I see it. People just do not care about their spelling when behind a pc, whereas they don't make any mistakes on tests at school where spelling is an important factor. It's the whole "word will correct me anyway" mindset.
  
  As for the LCD 2's, I graduated from highschool (well, the dutch equivalent) two days ago, so I'm working full-time to get my fundings together before I board university somewhere in September.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





ynoskire said:


> Ok, we've been talking about two different things then. The bad spelling is mostly an internet problem, at least, that's the way I see it. People just do not care about their spelling when behind a pc, whereas they don't make any mistakes on tests at school where spelling is an important factor. It's the whole "word will correct me anyway" mindset.
> 
> As for the LCD 2's, I graduated from highschool (well, the dutch equivalent) two days ago, so I'm working full-time to get my fundings together before I board university somewhere in September.


 
  Congratulations!


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> Where is literacy on the rise?


 

 Virtually everywhere, but here's the USA with a huge increase between 1870 and 1979:
   

   
  http://nces.ed.gov/naal/lit_history.asp#illiteracy
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literacy#History


----------



## pp312

Eek, two pages of discussion on grammar because I made a tongue-in-cheek remark! Yikes, I've derailed this whole thread. I confess, Officer, take me away.
   
  I guess ultimately it's a question of priorities. The man I most admire in history is the Marquis who was given his death warrant to read while standing on the guillotine waiting for the chop. He looked at it leisurely for a few moments and said, "I see that you have made three spelling errors." Now there's a man after my own heart.


----------



## brasewel

Sheesh, this thread has been totally derailed. Let's leave the grammar aside and get back on track guys?


----------



## MHinGA

Since there has been a derailment complaint, I won't continue with the grammar/spelling/punctuation &etc. (btw things like "&etc." and "OK" are shorthand and not necessarily errors). Plus, I don't want anybody fly-specking my posts-- that might prove embarrassing! That being said, I have to admit that I spelled "judgment" wrong for 20+ years until One L. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
   
  Quote: 





grokit said:


> Wow, I've been misspelling "judgemental" for a long time
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## KevinWolff

Down to 2 choices. Almost bought a used wa22 before I read you need a balanced dac to take full advantage. I just got the Anedio D1 so that's out. So now it's down to 2. BUT the liquid fire is taking pre-orders for the 2nd run and haven't yet shipped the first, which means significant wait time. Plus it's a thousand more than the other 2. 
   
  So it's looking like the Peak/Volcano is the winner. The reviews are great, and it's said to pair well with LCD-2. What I'm not sure of is whether or not it pairs well with the D1.
  Has anyone try this pairing?
   
   
  Quote: 





kevinwolff said:


> Down to 3 choices for my new desktop amp. Peak/Volcano, WA22, or the Liquid fire. Decisions, decisions. I've heard none by the way, this is all based on reviews. I like a more thick bottom end. I'm using the sr-71A with my D1 right now. I still like the Ray Samuels sound, but the D1 is quite neutral, and I think I need at least a hybrid if not a full tube amp in the chain. I like resolution and treble extension to a degree, but am more a fan of rolled off, oops, excuse me, recessed highs. I find the lcd-2 to have plenty of treble and mids for my tastes. Probably ALO copper/silver on the cable. Any suggestions?


----------



## KevinWolff

Ordered the Peak/Volcano and Shuguang tube upgrade. Looking forward to learning about tube rolling.


----------



## Wedge

I would have left the Shuguang tube behind.


----------



## KevinWolff

Really? What would u suggest? i got it because it was used in both 6moons and avguide reviews. i'm a tube noob. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
  Quote: 





wedge said:


> I would have left the Shuguang tube behind.


----------



## Wedge

I generally prefer NOS tubes.  A NOS Sylvania can be had for less than the Treasure and IMO sounds better.  Mullard ECC32 is probably about as good as it gets.


----------



## KevinWolff

i"ve head the mullard mentioned again and again. I will check it out right after I do some tubes 101 research. Sadly, I don't yet even know what NOS means yet. 
  
  Quote: 





wedge said:


> I generally prefer NOS tubes.  A NOS Sylvania can be had for less than the Treasure and IMO sounds better.  Mullard ECC32 is probably about as good as it gets.


----------



## mhamel

Kevin,
   
    NOS stands for New Old Stock - basically vintage tubes that are still new in the box and test as such.
   
       -Mike
   
   
   
  Quote: 





kevinwolff said:


> i"ve head the mullard mentioned again and again. I will check it out right after I do some tubes 101 research. Sadly, I don't yet even know what NOS means yet.


----------



## Wedge

NOS mean New Old Stock, also used tubes work well too.  There are a lot of good old stock tubes out there, some can be had on the cheap, others can be had by selling your soul or child's soul, sellers don't seem too particular as to whose soul they are receiving.  I would also say check out Tung-Sol Black Glass Round Plate (TSRP), ECC33s sound good as well, Marconi Osram B65s cost a fortune but sound phenomenal, RCA 5692s if your looking for a slightly more lush sound than say TSRP, I also love the Fivre 6SN7GT (I'm told these are very rare).


----------



## WyldRage

Just adding my five cents: the Cavalli Audio EHHA is very good with the LCD-2. My other main amplifier, the Hagerman Castanet, is not: it lacks the power to give a detailed sound.


----------



## KevinWolff

I think i'm gonna sell a soul or 2 and get the mullard from tube world, then start investigating all these others. i'm psyched to start rolling. Thanks for the info. I also canceled the Shuguang. 
  
  Quote: 





wedge said:


> NOS mean New Old Stock, also used tubes work well too.  There are a lot of good old stock tubes out there, some can be had on the cheap, others can be had by selling your soul or child's soul, sellers don't seem too particular as to whose soul they are receiving.  I would also say check out Tung-Sol Black Glass Round Plate (TSRP), ECC33s sound good as well, Marconi Osram B65s cost a fortune but sound phenomenal, RCA 5692s if your looking for a slightly more lush sound than say TSRP, I also love the Fivre 6SN7GT (I'm told these are very rare).


----------



## TruBrew

I just finished reading through this thread for I think the second time. I am only more confused now. My DAC is a Reference 7. I need to read some more about it, but I have the impression it is not very musical. Due to that I am leaning towards a tube amp, but haven't ruled out SS. I plan to build a serious STAX rig, and don't want to spend all my money on this setup. I can't see the LCD-2 being my only pair of ortho/dynamic I ever own, so I want an all around good amp, so I can try and avoid buying another in the future.
   
  That rules out the Decware. If I could guarantee myself the LCD-2 would be my only non STAX headphone, I would buy it. I can spend up to $3000, but I would like to keep it in the $1,000-$2,000 range. I was considering the RSA Apache, but think I will cut that out, just because I don't think I want to spend that much. I don't want to deal with a builder for a Beta 22, so that is out. For SS I am thinking Phoenix, or GS-X. The GS-X has gone up in price from what I read it used to be, and almost no one owns one, which I feel like says something.
   
  That leaves me with The P/V, WA6SE, and WA22 for tubes. I haven't read much about how well the P/V work with other cans, so I would have to do some research on that before buying it. If I spend $3,000+ on this amp, I will probably wonder why I did not just by a BHSE, which I will eventually buy anyway. I hate options.


----------



## dannie01

Quote: 





wedge said:


> I generally prefer NOS tubes.  A NOS Sylvania can be had for less than the Treasure and IMO sounds better.  Mullard ECC32 is probably about as good as it gets.


 


      Quote:


wedge said:


> NOS mean New Old Stock, also used tubes work well too.  There are a lot of good old stock tubes out there, some can be had on the cheap, others can be had by selling your soul or child's soul, sellers don't seem too particular as to whose soul they are receiving.  I would also say check out Tung-Sol Black Glass Round Plate (TSRP), ECC33s sound good as well, Marconi Osram B65s cost a fortune but sound phenomenal, RCA 5692s if your looking for a slightly more lush sound than say TSRP, I also love the Fivre 6SN7GT (I'm told these are very rare).


 


 Well said, Wedge and can't agree more.


----------



## Wedge

Quote: 





trubrew said:


> That leaves me with The P/V, WA6SE, and WA22 for tubes. I haven't read much about how well the P/V work with other cans, so I would have to do some research on that before buying it. If I spend $3,000+ on this amp, I will probably wonder why I did not just by a BHSE, which I will eventually buy anyway. I hate options.


 

 The P/V to me sounds great with other cans on it.  I listened to the K701, LCD-2, HE-6, Ed. 10, and HD-650.  I don't like the Ed.10s but it sounded as good on that amp as it did any of my others. Mostly just didn't like the phones.  It works well with a lot of cans because it is quite a transparent/neutral amp.  If you want to hear it, I would suggest giving Todd a call and asking him if has a loaner for you to borrow and listen to.


----------



## Wedge

Quote: 





dannie01 said:


> Well said, Wedge and can't agree more.


 

 Thanks, Dannie01.  How are the WA-5LE and LCD-2 working with your ECC32s?


----------



## n3rdling

Quote: 





trubrew said:


> I just finished reading through this thread for I think the second time. I am only more confused now. My DAC is a Reference 7. I need to read some more about it, but I have the impression it is not very musical. Due to that I am leaning towards a tube amp, but haven't ruled out SS. I plan to build a serious STAX rig, and don't want to spend all my money on this setup. I can't see the LCD-2 being my only pair of ortho/dynamic I ever own, so I want an all around good amp, so I can try and avoid buying another in the future.
> 
> That rules out the Decware. If I could guarantee myself the LCD-2 would be my only non STAX headphone, I would buy it. I can spend up to $3000, but I would like to keep it in the $1,000-$2,000 range. I was considering the RSA Apache, but think I will cut that out, just because I don't think I want to spend that much. I don't want to deal with a builder for a Beta 22, so that is out. For SS I am thinking Phoenix, or GS-X. The GS-X has gone up in price from what I read it used to be, and almost no one owns one, which I feel like says something.
> 
> That leaves me with The P/V, WA6SE, and WA22 for tubes. I haven't read much about how well the P/V work with other cans, so I would have to do some research on that before buying it. If I spend $3,000+ on this amp, I will probably wonder why I did not just by a BHSE, which I will eventually buy anyway. I hate options.


 
   

 I'd expect the GSX to outperform the other amps but I've never heard the PV.  I've never really been thrilled with any of the Woo offerings.  If you are able to find an already built B22 or Dynahi on the FS forums I'd definitely consider those the top amps for orthos though.


----------



## TruBrew

Thanks. I have always thought the Woo amps might be overpriced, but they are so popular. I guess it is a little like the Burson, which I have also never heard. The GSX just baffles me. How have so few people owned/heard that particular amp. It seems compelling, but if it was as good as it seems like it should be, Why do more people not own them. Sure it is expensive, but so are so many other amps that are popular around here. I just got in touch with someone to possibly build be a B22. I am waiting to find out what that will run me. I have not heard of the Dynahi, but from a quick search it looks like another DIY amp.
  
  Quote: 





n3rdling said:


> I'd expect the GSX to outperform the other amps but I've never heard the PV.  I've never really been thrilled with any of the Woo offerings.  If you are able to find an already built B22 or Dynahi on the FS forums I'd definitely consider those the top amps for orthos though.


----------



## fra107

Hi guys, i sold my Burson HA-160, and waiting my 4 boards Beta 22 is ready (by QES Labs) i'm using a Musical Fidelity X-can V3 (diy toroidal PSU)...

 ...well, is it possible that it drive my LCD-2 good or my ears are dead?



 It's lacking a bit in dynamic, but the sound is not bad, someone tried X-Can V3/LCD-2?


----------



## dannie01

Quote: 





wedge said:


> Thanks, Dannie01.  How are the WA-5LE and LCD-2 working with your ECC32s?


 

 The combo sounded wonderful.
   
  I'm now trying to persuade my friend to buy my WA5LE by installment so I can order a new WA5 from Jack to drive both headphones and speakers. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But the most critical issue to my friend are those tubes for the WA5LE, if he goes for the same combo as mine, they will cost almost the same price for a brand new WA5LE that make him struggling.


----------



## n3rdling

Quote: 





trubrew said:


> Thanks. I have always thought the Woo amps might be overpriced, but they are so popular. I guess it is a little like the Burson, which I have also never heard. The GSX just baffles me. How have so few people owned/heard that particular amp. It seems compelling, but if it was as good as it seems like it should be, Why do more people not own them. Sure it is expensive, but so are so many other amps that are popular around here. I just got in touch with someone to possibly build be a B22. I am waiting to find out what that will run me. I have not heard of the Dynahi, but from a quick search it looks like another DIY amp.


 

 I'm not exactly sure why it isn't a more popular amp but I think the Gilmore Lite has a lot to do with it (especially with DPS).  That amp was very popular for a while and used units got snapped up in the FS section extremely fast.  These amps are very close to wire with gain which I think a lot of people confuse with analytical for whatever reason.  Plain SS isn't as sexy as tube alternatives.  To me a tube amp from a manufacturer makes more sense at the higher price bracket, where they are able to use expensive, more linear transformers.  DIY is a different ballgame as you can probably build the same amp for half the price.  I think the popularity of the Woo amps has a lot to do with Jack's customer service, but the fact that a group of people that are extremely active here post about the Woo amps constantly helps keep the amps relevant.  The B22 shouldn't cost you too much and it has the benefit of being customized to your needs.  You can determine how many boards to use, how crazy you want to go on parts (most retail amps use cheap stuff, whereas the sky is the limit in a DIY build), the looks, etc.  Not to mention it should outperform just about anything out there if you're of the mentality that an amp shouldn't add or change the sound as that should be left to each individual transducer.  As for the Dynahi, it is the ultimate of the popular Gilmore dynamic designs but not that easy to build and some of the parts are hard to find so they are pretty hard to come by now.  It is pretty brilliant though.


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





fra107 said:


> Hi guys, i sold my Burson HA-160, and waiting my 4 boards Beta 22 is ready (by QES Labs) i'm using a Musical Fidelity X-can V3 (diy toroidal PSU)...
> 
> ...well, is it possible that it drive my LCD-2 good or my ears are dead?
> 
> ...


 

 It must have been a coincidence, but last night I had a marathon rediscovery of my V3 amplifier...with all my headphones.  Its a good amp.  It doesn't throw out the largest "soundstage" of the more expensive amps I've owned, but it does seemingly have more capability to drive low ohm headphones than the Lehmann Black Cube amp.  This includes the LCD2s - it can go louder before compression becomes noticeable.
   
  At this moment, I have the Phoenix amplifier and it throws the most layered and large 3 dimensional soundstage I have heard yet with solid state precision and a fair degree of tube midrange...but real tubes are unbeatable with voices and strings to me, and so the X can, by nature of having a tube in the circuit had the most incredible vocal presentation.  This was the first time I paired the X-Can to Reference 7 dac via the Phoenix as a pre-amp to the X-can as a headphone power amp - the volume is maximised to remove the volume control out of the equation...and frankly I never heard the X can sound so nice.
   
  If you're after more treble the X-Can won't cut it as overall treble levels are a little subdued, but the treble sounds so _pure and natural_ perhaps the best treble quality I ever heard period, and I never believed I would say this about tubes and treble.  But I think the midrange is more whole with the LCD2 and Xcan - as the Xcan is a more forward (not lean, a difference) in the uppermid - which for me can be lacking on LCD2 with some tracks...I never crave for more treble than the LCD2 has to offer, I think it offers ample treble and then some.
   
  More listening with the X-Can to come...and am now will definitely carry out some mods when time permits.  Something about this hybrid, it has that toe tapping thing - transients are still rounded, but somehow more rhythmic than full tube.  Perhaps its the decay thing - short like solid state?  Better brakes?
   
  Does any one else have the opinion that tubes have a _better _kind of detail retrieval that solid states can't match?  In a way I find tubes to be more detailed in some ways than solid states.


----------



## SP Wild

double


----------



## fra107

thanks guys.....anyway i'm anxious to receive the Beta 22, i hope it will be much better than the other amps i had/have


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





fra107 said:


> thanks guys.....anyway i'm anxious to receive the Beta 22, i hope it will be much better than the other amps i had/have


 

 It should be a step up in performance from the Burson. The changes will be subtle so don't expect a night and day difference. Based on the 3CH I heard it should be a little more musical with more slam than the Burson. It will also be quite a bit more transparent so it will respond very well to your source.


----------



## fra107

Mine will be a 4 boards full balanced version, i hope it's better than the 3 boards one.
  Quote: 





brasewel said:


> It should be a step up in performance from the Burson. The changes will be subtle so don't expect a night and day difference. Based on the 3CH I heard it should be a little more musical with more slam than the Burson. It will also be quite a bit more transparent so it will respond very well to your source.


----------



## brasewel

Yes I know. I wonder how noticeable the differences would be between the 3 and 4CH since the differences between the 2CH and 3CH are inaudible.


----------



## Wedge

I don't see the advantage of going for 4 channel balanced, it is a cost and complexity increase, but I am not really too sure of the benefits.


----------



## brasewel

^^ I concur. I think the 2CH B22 is the best way to go. You can always get a better volume pot and power supply if you don't want to scrounge on parts.


----------



## bcg27

Quote: 





brasewel said:


> Yes I know. I wonder how noticeable the differences would be between the 3 and 4CH since the differences between the 2CH and 3CH are inaudible.


 

 Well the biggest advantage is twice the voltage swing, but LCD2 doesn't really need that...


----------



## brasewel

^^ So the benefits of the 4CH would be more noticeable on high-impedance cans?


----------



## bcg27

Even the SE B22 can swing ~15 Vrms, which is more than enough for almost any headphone. Some really hard to drive ones like the k1000 or HE-6 might possible need it, and some people drive speakers with the B22 which would definitely benefit from it. Honestly if everything is volume matched I bet it would be pretty hard to impossible to identify the 2,3 or 4 channel versions from each other, although the only one I have personally heard is my own 3 channel version.


----------



## Wedge

Dannie, Just tell him the New WA-5LE with stock tubes, will not sound nearly as good as your WA-5LE with the ECC32s and EAT300B.  I would also say you will love the K1K port on the full up WA-5, works great for HE-6 and LCD-2, just let Jack know you intend to use it for the LCD-2 as well as the HE-6.
  
  Quote: 





dannie01 said:


> The combo sounded wonderful.
> 
> I'm now trying to persuade my friend to buy my WA5LE by installment so I can order a new WA5 from Jack to drive both headphones and speakers.
> 
> ...


----------



## Wedge

Quote: 





bcg27 said:


> Well the biggest advantage is twice the voltage swing, but LCD2 doesn't really need that...


 

 Twice the voltage swing, also comes with an impedance hit, so its not all there.  I think of it as more of a gimmick than anything else, honestly a good single ended output can sound phenomenal, what is gained from the added cost and complexity, quality guys would argue lower reliability, etc. doesn't materialize itself in this application, unless you think there is a big common mode noise issue with headphone usage (i.e. long cable runs).


----------



## bcg27

Quote: 





wedge said:


> Twice the voltage swing, also comes with an impedance hit, so its not all there.  I think of it as more of a gimmick than anything else, honestly a good single ended output can sound phenomenal, what is gained from the added cost and complexity, quality guys would argue lower reliability, etc. doesn't materialize itself in this application, unless you think there is a big common mode noise issue with headphone usage (i.e. long cable runs).


 

 Yes, but in the case of the B22 its like .2 ohms instead of .1 ohms.
   
  Don't get me wrong, personally I am not a proponent of balanced and I agree with all of your points.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





bcg27 said:


> Yes, but in the case of the B22 its like .2 ohms instead of .1 ohms.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, personally I am not a proponent of balanced and I agree with all of your points.


 
  I guess then, the biggest hit you take with a 4-ch β22 is initial cost coupled with inherently lower reliability.  A 4 ch setup will have roughly 1/2 the MTBF that a 2 ch setup will have.


----------



## DeadEars

I hadn't thought about that part of the equation.  I'd been focusing on the problem of the signal passing through twice as many parts.
   
  Interesting perspective!


----------



## chris.d.m.

Greetings dudes.
  I'm kinda considering this Qes labs thing for the LCD-2's...
   
  http://www.qeslabs.com/e_listening.asp
   
  ...Heard good things about it as a studio-ref HP amp but anyone care to praise or talk crap about it?


----------



## Wedge

Quote: 





deadears said:


> I hadn't thought about that part of the equation.  I'd been focusing on the problem of the signal passing through twice as many parts.
> 
> Interesting perspective!


 

 That amp has so many parts in it, that adding more probably can't get you any further away from individual component sound anyways, so your left with, added complexity, cost, and reliability.  I will concede doubling the output impedance of the amp in this case probably will not make much of a difference, but the added voltage swing capability probably won't add much either since you will have no need for all that additional headroom, while the LCD-2 is not the most sensitive phone it is still pretty sensitive.  If you need common mode noise rejection, than that is another story.


----------



## fra107

I would like to know if someone already tried a balanced 4 ch Beta 22 with the LCD-2


----------



## SHAHZADA123

The Havana DAC>Headroom Ultra Amp combination has been the best so far for my LCD-2s.
  The Schiit Lyr and even the WA22 pale in comparison.
  Just WOW


----------



## LiqTenExp

Not much for information/pictures on their website.  It has ~630 mW (28 dBm) of power into 300 ohms, I am guessing it is pure SS and would have even more power down around 50 ohms.  Who knows though.  Not sure if I'd bite on this one without hearing it first.  They seems to be an advocate of the completely separate everything in the channels though (power supply, volume knob, etc), not a bad thing at all.  Here is their spec sheet for it: http://www.qeslabs.com/pdf/hpba2.pdf
  
  Quote: 





chris.d.m. said:


> Greetings dudes.
> I'm kinda considering this Qes labs thing for the LCD-2's...
> 
> http://www.qeslabs.com/e_listening.asp
> ...


----------



## fra107

He's making my 4 ch Beta 22
  
  Quote: 





chris.d.m. said:


> Greetings dudes.
> I'm kinda considering this Qes labs thing for the LCD-2's...
> 
> http://www.qeslabs.com/e_listening.asp
> ...


----------



## johnwmclean

fra107 said:


> I would like to know if someone already tried a balanced 4 ch Beta 22 with the LCD-2




I have had the LCD-2s for a couple of months with my balanced Beta22, my source is a Buffalo32 DAC. After the first listen of the first piece of music I knew I'd be selling my HD800's, I put them up for sale the next day and have never looked back. 
I've read the talk about a shelved down treble with the LCD-2s, I cannot hear it on this system, I can hear an annoying peak with the HD800's.
The LCD-2's sound natural, there's flesh and bone, an almost organic signature, it's had me up all hours rediscovering my music. It's performs equalling well over all genres, rock is much more enjoyable vs HD800's by a wide margin.
I believe the Beta22 and LCD-2's are made for each other, more so than my Balanced EHHA which faired better with the HD800 and K1000's. I had time with the HE-6, it did not wow me like the LCD-2s do.
In all honesty the combo is the best I've heard from any system in my experience.


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





chris.d.m. said:


> Greetings dudes.
> I'm kinda considering this Qes labs thing for the LCD-2's...
> 
> http://www.qeslabs.com/e_listening.asp
> ...


 

 How's your custom made amp project moving along chris? Has Herbert perfected the amp?


----------



## shamrock134

So what is a good "budget" amp (or possibly amp/dac) for these? The Nuforce Icon HDP?
   
  I've got a pair on the way and will initially be using a GS Solo SRGII until I can afford something else a bit more powerful, but even then I'm not wanting to break my already broken bank.


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





shamrock134 said:


> So what is a good "budget" amp (or possibly amp/dac) for these? The Nuforce Icon HDP?
> 
> I've got a pair on the way and will initially be using a GS Solo SRGII until I can afford something else a bit more powerful, but even then I'm not wanting to break my already broken bank.


 

 My KICAS Caliente is a pretty good match for the LCD-2. It's not in the same class as my Apache but it shines for a $200 amp.


----------



## gurubhai

Quote: 





johnwmclean said:


> Quote:
> 
> I believe the Beta22 and LCD-2's are made for each other, more so than my Balanced EHHA which faired better with the HD800 and K1000's.


 


  Can you elaborate, in which areas, did the B22 fared better than the EHHA ?
  Also which tubes & output transistors were you using ?


----------



## deathg0d

Quote: 





johnwmclean said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


 John my man, after reading your post, i am sold by your experiences you have with LCD 2 as i have been sitting on the fence for a very long time contemplating which is better with b22. and here you are convinced me that LCD 2 is the better choice. i have heard both but not with my b22 so i roughly knows what are the differences between he6 and LCD 2.
   
  would you mind sheding some lights on this sound signature i heard from LCD 2 that has been haunting me for quite some time. does the vocal and the instruments sound separated by a huge gap inbetween on the LCD 2? meaning, i heard the vocal to be very upfront and the instruments lying far behind the back giving me an impression of a void in between them? is this due to the lack of compatibility from the amp? i doubt that the AE amp is not powerful enough to drive LCD 2. thanks.


----------



## fra107

Quote: 





johnwmclean said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks. It looks like you are one of the two persons tried the combo, the other one is the member "alota", he convinced me to buy the balanced beta 22.
   
  What cable did you use? I've a NorseAudio 8 conductors ready and anxious to be plugged in (beta 22 will be ready in 3 weeks).


----------



## johnwmclean

Quote: 





gurubhai said:


> Can you elaborate, in which areas, did the B22 fared better than the EHHA ?
> Also which tubes & output transistors were you using ?


 

 In the EHHA I’m using a match quad of telefunken’s, mosfet version in a speaker amp configuration. Both amps are driven by a separate dual Sigma22 psu with Sumr 120VA transformers.
   
  Both amps are excellent with the LCD-2’s, both have great detail retrieval and musicality. There is a definite softening with the EHHA, it does sound incredibly good, would be preferable for some tastes. The Beta22 cuts the image a little crisper, bass is slightly more visceral and detailed. 
   
  I am also slightly biased as the Beta22 has more travel on the pot, it has a Khozmo 48 stepper as opposed to a Dact 24 stepper on the EHHA. 
   
  Quote: 





deathg0d said:


> John my man, after reading your post, i am sold by your experiences you have with LCD 2 as i have been sitting on the fence for a very long time contemplating which is better with b22. and here you are convinced me that LCD 2 is the better choice. i have heard both but not with my b22 so i roughly knows what are the differences between he6 and LCD 2.
> 
> would you mind sheding some lights on this sound signature i heard from LCD 2 that has been haunting me for quite some time. does the vocal and the instruments sound separated by a huge gap inbetween on the LCD 2? meaning, i heard the vocal to be very upfront and the instruments lying far behind the back giving me an impression of a void in between them? is this due to the lack of compatibility from the amp? i doubt that the AE amp is not powerful enough to drive LCD 2. thanks.


 
   
  I blame the the crappy microphonic stock cable...
   
  I’ve used the old standard and ever reliable Rebecca Pidgeons Spanish Harlem track for vocal testing, with the stock cable she’s very forward with a closed in group behind her, the violin and cello interplay is lacking dynamics, kind of confusing and tends to mess up the presentation. Changing over to the Norse 8 conducter has her further back with a bigger soundstage, things are happening now, much more relaxed, everything has more space and time.
   
  Do I need a flame suit?


----------



## johnwmclean

Quote: 





fra107 said:


> Thanks. It looks like you are one of the two persons tried the combo, the other one is the member "alota", he convinced me to buy the balanced beta 22.
> 
> What cable did you use? I've a NorseAudio 8 conductors ready and anxious to be plugged in (beta 22 will be ready in 3 weeks).


 

  Congrats! I can only confirm that you has invested very wisely, indeed.
  See post above for cable answer.


----------



## K3cT

Quote: 





deathg0d said:


> would you mind sheding some lights on this sound signature i heard from LCD 2 that has been haunting me for quite some time. does the vocal and the instruments sound separated by a huge gap inbetween on the LCD 2? meaning, i heard the vocal to be very upfront and the instruments lying far behind the back giving me an impression of a void in between them? is this due to the lack of compatibility from the amp? i doubt that the AE amp is not powerful enough to drive LCD 2. thanks.


 

 First track of Diana Krall - Live in Paris through a 3-channel Beta22. Krall's voice is dead-right in the center with the instruments lying _*around*_ her. I definitely don't hear the instruments behind the voice.


----------



## fra107

Quote: 





johnwmclean said:


> Congrats! I can only confirm that you has invested very wisely, indeed.
> See post above for cable answer.


 


  Thanks!


----------



## zzffnn

I can confirm that my 2-channel Beta 22 is a good match for LCD-2s; with Beta 22, the soundstage is deeper (less upfront, just right), treble is better, and speed and impact are also improved (compared to M^3 AD843s with Sigma11).

 I have not heard EHHA, but read that with telefunken tubes, EHHA should match well with LCD-2s. Since johnwmclean has heard both and prefer Beta 22, I will happily take his words (what he said makes sense to me).
   
  I am getting a First Watt F2 clone and will compare it the Beta 22.


----------



## gurubhai

Quote: 





johnwmclean said:


> I am also slightly biased as the Beta22 has more travel on the pot, it has a Khozmo 48 stepper as opposed to a Dact 24 stepper on the EHHA.


 
  Can you switch the attenuators & then compare again. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Actually just asking cause I am planning on building another amp for my secondary rig & am torn between EHHA & B22.
  EHHA would be easier & I already have all the parts  but B22 would be a different flavor & possibly better ........


----------



## chris.d.m.

brasewel said:


> How's your custom made amp project moving along chris? Has Herbert perfected the amp?




Hey brasewel,
Herbert's been a bit side tracked with other projects but I still jabs hopes for his modified version of his tubs amp.
In the meantime, been busy mixing via the Lavry DA10 HP out.
It 's not bad but considering under 1k options for referencing mixes. 
The HPBA-2 looks good in that price range but would havd to be modded yo a HPBA-3 per Val at Qes labs to accommodate the LCD-2 impedance. That would add another $500 to thf price. 

So.... The search is still on ?


----------



## Yoga

Quote: 





shamrock134 said:


> So what is a good "budget" amp (or possibly amp/dac) for these? The Nuforce Icon HDP?
> 
> I've got a pair on the way and will initially be using a GS Solo SRGII until I can afford something else a bit more powerful, but even then I'm not wanting to break my already broken bank.


 

 I asked HeadphoneAddict this recently (LCD-2 with HDP, currently using HD650s)...
   
   

_"I think the LCD-2 are much better than the HD-650, and although they have a similar frequency response the LCD-2 have greater speed, micro-detail, definition and control.  The LCD-2 are a good match for the stock HDP (i.e. stock PSU)._
   
_The HDP with a Sigma 11 PSU is noticeably better and starts to get near that point of diminishing returns, and an $800 DACmini (which is near the level of my $1200 maxed Woo WA6) is slightly better than my upgraded HDP ($700) or ALO Amphora ($995).   Nuforce makes a linear regulated PSU that should offer similar upgrades in sound to my Sigma 11._
   
_If you didn't want to buy a Nuforce or Sigma 11 PSU and leave the HDP stock, then you'll still really enjoy the LCD-2 with it.  The next upgrade over a stock HDP would be to get the DACmini, although it might not be worth it to upgrade if you have the nicer PSU.  After that it is a point of diminishing returns.  You might have to jump to a $1900 Woo WA22 or Eddie Current ZDT to clearly reach the next level.  "_
   
   
  I have an HDP with me on trial, with LCD-2s on the way. A Burson 160D is also arriving soon, so I'll be able to give you some direct comparisons of the HDP vs a highly regarded HP amp (and DAC).
   
  As it stands, I'm finding the HDP + 650 combination rather excellent :¬)
   
  Another forum member went from the HDP + 650 to the Burson 160D + LCD-2 and said its fine upgrade indeed :¬)


----------



## WarriorAnt

http://www.ttvjaudio.com/store/comersus_viewItem.asp?idProduct=717&image=
   
*Apex Arete    Looks like an Apex Peak without the tube stage.   Interesting in that you can use the Volcano to power it if you already have the Peak/Volvano combo.*


----------



## WarriorAnt

http://www.headfonia.com/burson-ha-160d-loaner-program/
   
   send me an email to burson.loaner@headfonia.com
   
   
 Burson HA-160D Loaner Program


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





chris.d.m. said:


> Greetings dudes.
> I'm kinda considering this Qes labs thing for the LCD-2's...
> 
> http://www.qeslabs.com/e_listening.asp
> ...


 
  Once you get it, let us know how it sounds.


----------



## yossi126

Quote: 





deathg0d said:


> John my man, after reading your post, i am sold by your experiences you have with LCD 2 as i have been sitting on the fence for a very long time contemplating which is better with b22. and here you are convinced me that LCD 2 is the better choice. i have heard both but not with my b22 so i roughly knows what are the differences between he6 and LCD 2.
> 
> would you mind sheding some lights on this sound signature i heard from LCD 2 that has been haunting me for quite some time. does the vocal and the instruments sound separated by a huge gap inbetween on the LCD 2? meaning, i heard the vocal to be very upfront and the instruments lying far behind the back giving me an impression of a void in between them? is this due to the lack of compatibility from the amp? i doubt that the AE amp is not powerful enough to drive LCD 2. thanks.


 
   
  IME, the Buffalo-II is much more important than the b22 in my system, without under estimating the latter.


----------



## KevinWolff

Peak / Volcano just arrived. Shuguang BT tube. Mullard ecc323 comes tomorrow. Only a couple hours break-in so far (tube needs a lot according to TTVJ) but so far it's everything they say it is. Too soon to give overall impressions, but so far I noticed the resolution and extension on both ends. Really impressive. Bass doesn't slam but it's all there.
  More once I get the mullard tube.


----------



## johnwmclean

zzffnn said:


> I can confirm that my 2-channel Beta 22 is a good match for LCD-2s; with Beta 22, the soundstage is deeper (less upfront, just right), treble is better, and speed and impact are also improved (compared to M^3 AD843s with Sigma11).
> 
> I have not heard EHHA, but read that with telefunken tubes, EHHA should match well with LCD-2s. Since johnwmclean has heard both and prefer Beta 22, I will happily take his words (what he said makes sense to me).
> 
> I am getting a First Watt F2 clone and will compare it the Beta 22.




The Beta22 is just my preference with the LCD-2s. Just a slightly different presentation. Both amps are world class, you cannot go wrong with either. Some listeners may prefer the EHHA presentation others the Beta22.
Depends also on source, the EHHA could be the better choice for some people. It 's about the system as a whole, my comments also reflect the ability of my source.


----------



## Wedge

I don't think the P/V is the slam in your face kind of amp, especially not with a Shuggie Treasure.  I am not sure that the ECC32 will make it slam for you either, but we shall see.  The ECC32s greatest strength, IMO, is that it is a oober smooth tube, but dynamic at the same time.  It gives you just the right amount of love, without being mushy.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  Quote: 





kevinwolff said:


> Peak / Volcano just arrived. Shuguang BT tube. Mullard ecc323 comes tomorrow. Only a couple hours break-in so far (tube needs a lot according to TTVJ) but so far it's everything they say it is. Too soon to give overall impressions, but so far I noticed the resolution and extension on both ends. Really impressive. Bass doesn't slam but it's all there.
> More once I get the mullard tube.


----------



## KevinWolff

yeah, I keep hearing smooth associated with the ecc32, but that it is also lighter on bass. The shuggie has incredible detail separation, but yeah, I think I need something russian to get more bass punch. But I also understand that this amp is not going to have a thick a bottom end regardless of tube selection
  
  Quote: 





wedge said:


> I don't think the P/V is the slam in your face kind of amp, especially not with a Shuggie Treasure.  I am not sure that the ECC32 will make it slam for you either, but we shall see.  The ECC32s greatest strength, IMO, is that it is a oober smooth tube, but dynamic at the same time.  It gives you just the right amount of love, without being mushy.


----------



## chris.d.m.

Quote: 





liqtenexp said:


> Not much for information/pictures on their website.  It has ~630 mW (28 dBm) of power into 300 ohms, I am guessing it is pure SS and would have even more power down around 50 ohms.  Who knows though.  Not sure if I'd bite on this one without hearing it first.  They seems to be an advocate of the completely separate everything in the channels though (power supply, volume knob, etc), not a bad thing at all.  Here is their spec sheet for it: http://www.qeslabs.com/pdf/hpba2.pdf


 

 Yeah, The model that would work w/ the LCD-2's is the HPBA-3. It's a $500 upgrade. 
  Kinda makes it a stretch for me to consider. It looks like a quality product though.
   

  
  Quote: 





fra107 said:


> He's making my 4 ch Beta 22


 

 Val seems like a cool guy. Wouldn't mind living in his neighborhood either. 
   
   


  Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> Once you get it, let us know how it sounds.


 

 Seems I need to reconsider due to impedance incapatibility.


----------



## Wedge

Quote: 





kevinwolff said:


> yeah, I keep hearing smooth associated with the ecc32, but that it is also lighter on bass. The shuggie has incredible detail separation, but yeah, I think I need something russian to get more bass punch. But I also understand that this amp is not going to have a thick a bottom end regardless of tube selection


 

 I don't think ECC32s are light on bass at all, but perhaps its just me.


----------



## KingStyles

The ecc32 for me in my amp has less bass and it is also has more bloom (not as tight or detailed in bass) than other tubes. Also the highs for some reason sound a little plasticy. My setup is a little rolled off in the highs which might attribute to the problem in the highs. I dont have that problem with other tubes though. By what I read, the reason the ecc32 has less bass and highs is because it isnt optimized (higher plate resistance) for 6sn7 circuits. This non optimization is what causes these deficiencies. Since I dont know any headphone amp that is optimized for the ecc32, I cannot verify if the bass and treble would be better when the circuit is optimized for the ecc32.


----------



## KevinWolff

Wow, that's depressing given the cost of the ecc32. I don't need to be hit over the head with bass. I'd just like to be able to go in and pick it out if I want to. But the bass not being tight and plasticy highs? I'm not happy to hear that. How is your setup rolled off? You mean your dac rolls off the highs?  I'd kill for rolled off highs. To my ears the LCD's have been stripped of any veil I perceived with my RSA amp. I have the Anedio D1 dac and it is very neutral and with the mostly neutral peak, i'm getting highs that are a little fatiguing, but I'm still on the Shuguang and it only has a few hours on it. I read it's very tinny sounding at first. I wouldn't say tinny, but stark to be sure.  
   
  Quote: 





kingstyles said:


> The ecc32 for me in my amp has less bass and it is also has more bloom (not as tight or detailed in bass) than other tubes. Also the highs for some reason sound a little plasticy. My setup is a little rolled off in the highs which might attribute to the problem in the highs. I dont have that problem with other tubes though. By what I read, the reason the ecc32 has less bass and highs is because it isnt optimized (higher plate resistance) for 6sn7 circuits. This non optimization is what causes these deficiencies. Since I dont know any headphone amp that is optimized for the ecc32, I cannot verify if the bass and treble would be better when the circuit is optimized for the ecc32.


----------



## KevinWolff

I can hear everything in the bass even in the not burned in shuggie. There's real extension there, and that's as satisfying, if not more so, than having the bass hit hard. I'm starting to like how the peak just gives you everything, and says, You decide what you want to focus on in this listening session. What do you think of the really laid sounding back RCA tubes? I want to try one of those as well. 
  
  Quote: 





wedge said:


> I don't think ECC32s are light on bass at all, but perhaps its just me.


----------



## Wedge

I think you just need to listen to the ECC32 and judge for yourself.  I like the tube a lot, but I also like a lot of other tubes.  I like laid back RCA's if I'm in the mood for pleasantries.  My favorite tubes for the P/V are probably the Fivre 6SN7GT, Marconi Osram B65, Mullard ECC32, and Tung-Sol BGRP.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote: 





yoga said:


> I asked HeadphoneAddict this recently (LCD-2 with HDP, currently using HD650s)...
> 
> 
> ...snip...
> ...


 
   
   
   
  Hi,
   
  If you're going to quote private messages in public, it's nice to ask the person if that's okay first.  And it's nice to include the original question and the whole response after you ask.  It's okay and I'm not mad, but you might rub someone else the wrong way.  I got in trouble myself for posting a PM once.
   
  You asked if your current HDP would be a good match for the LCD-2 and if it would represent a point of diminishing returns.  I then included a copy of a post I made here yesterday afternoon, plus what you quoted which was more directly in response to your question.  But at the end of my private message I said, "Note, I don't mention amps I haven't heard yet, and I while I have the maxed WA6 I haven't heard the WA6SE which is supposed to be much better than my normal WA6."  
   
  I just want people to know (as I informed you) that if I left out a better amp in my reply that it's because I haven't tried it.  I know there are likely many amps that bridge the performance gap between the midrange amps I mentioned and the high-end amps that I mentioned.  Also, my ZDT wasn't the best with LCD-2 until I did the partial silver transformer upgrade, and now the combo is much better sounding.


----------



## KevinWolff

I love the amp already. I'm hearing things in familiar songs that I never knew was there before.
  Ecc comes today. Looking forward to it. 
  I looked up your other suggestions. Wow, they are expensive too. Having said that, I'll probably order them soon 
   
  Quote: 





wedge said:


> I think you just need to listen to the ECC32 and judge for yourself.  I like the tube a lot, but I also like a lot of other tubes.  I like laid back RCA's if I'm in the mood for pleasantries.  My favorite tubes for the P/V are probably the Fivre 6SN7GT, Marconi Osram B65, Mullard ECC32, and Tung-Sol BGRP.


----------



## Yoga

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> If you're going to quote private messages in public, it's nice to ask the person if that's okay first.  And it's nice to include the original question and the whole response after you ask.  It's okay and I'm not mad, but you might rub someone else the wrong way.  I got in trouble myself for posting a PM once.


 

  My apologies, it was an attempt to be helpful. Consider your recommendations taken on board :¬)


----------



## Wedge

Quote: 





kevinwolff said:


> I love the amp already. I'm hearing things in familiar songs that I never knew was there before.
> Ecc comes today. Looking forward to it.
> I looked up your other suggestions. Wow, they are expensive too. Having said that, I'll probably order them soon


 
   
  Those are really the tubes that I listen to these days.  I am sure there are cheaper tubes that sound great as well, I wouldn't drive yourself bankrupt buying tubes.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  I would recommend waiting to see if you like the ECC32, first.  Some cheaper alternatives that are generally a good listen might be Sylvanias, etc.  Keep an eye out cause you never know what people are trying to get rid, you can find some really sweet stuff sometimes.


----------



## KevinWolff

I popped in the Mullard, gave it only 15 minutes to warm up, and then put on Rush's YYZ (24/96 hdtracks version). YES! I'm happy with this one already. The bass is more than adequate, and the smoothness is a real relief. Wow, it's hard to believe a single tube can change the sound so much. My LCD-2's sound like themselves again. They were sounding a little like dynamics with the Shuggie. I have a few more coming, but I can see why this one makes everyone's list of best tubes, 
  
  Quote: 





wedge said:


> Those are really the tubes that I listen to these days.  I am sure there are cheaper tubes that sound great as well, I wouldn't drive yourself bankrupt buying tubes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## alvin sawdust

Wow KevinWolff, you move so fast with your purchases. My advice would be to sit back, let the new electronics bed in and get used to the sound. You can also tell me to get stuffed and mind my own business 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
   
  Glad you are enjoying the desease we call audiophillia


----------



## KevinWolff

haha. no. it's ok. I do get a little carried away. In January this all started with my labrador chewing my bose QC3's (which I thought sounded dreadful even before I discovered headfi). I started with the HD650's that I bought with amex points, and thinking, all I need is this little amp called uDac2 and I'm all set. It'll hardly cost me anything at all (cue ominous music)
   
  Then I discovered headfonia...
   
  and then headfi...
   
  That was 4 amp upgrades, 3 dacs, 4 upgrade cables,  and 2 cans ago. And it's just shy of my 6 month anniversary. lol
   
  HOWEVER, I go thru phases, and move quickly to get to the optimal system and then stop. Check my signature in 6 months. I'll bet it still reads as it does today. I think I finally have the rig that I wanted. That's it. I think I'm done (Cue ominous reprise).
   
  All I need to now is for HDtracks to get the ENTIRE Rush catalog, and a few other catalogs, and I'll be happy forever.....forever...forever.... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  Quote: 





alvin sawdust said:


> Wow KevinWolff, you move so fast with your purchases. My advice would be to sit back, let the new electronics bed in and get used to the sound. You can also tell me to get stuffed and mind my own business
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Wedge

Interesting your in New Jersey too.  I suppose you don't have to buy all the tubes, you could just listen to mine.


----------



## KevinWolff

I was looking at your equipment inventory, very impressive. How long ago did you start? I dabbled in hifi a couple times over the years. Had a couple adcom systems with Definitive tech speakers, but nothing really high end. I'd definitely like to check out your setup one day. I used to play golf too, for 10 years. Never got lower than a 15 handicap. Probably couldn't break 100 now.  
  
  Quote: 





wedge said:


> Interesting your in New Jersey too.  I suppose you don't have to buy all the tubes, you could just listen to mine.


----------



## Wedge

I've been into audio since I was like 12 yrs old.  I've been on and off since.  Only recently did I really go nuts with head-fi.  I still love listening to speakers over headphones though, at least most of the time.  Yeah I have a friend that we do listening sessions every so often, so there has been an instance where someone asked me from head-fi if they could hear my gear, and joined us.


----------



## brasewel

^^ We did have a good time didn't we? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 After listening to your DynaAudios I got a good pair of bookshelves and my LCD-2s have been getting lesser and lesser head time.


----------



## KevinWolff

i prefer speakers too. I'm currently in a two family house with an elderly couple next door. Although I do mix in music from their era, they can't handle the bass thump for hours every day.
   
  I actually have to overcome a slight claustrophobic feeling with headphones. Nothing serious, just a constant awareness of their closeness. Doesn't help that I can practically see the giant LCD-2's in both sides of my peripheral vision.
   
  I'd like to join a listening  session, but give me a couple months. I have a feeling hearing your stuff will have me upgrading again soon after, and there are those on the forum that already feel I have a problem. haha.
   
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  Quote: 





wedge said:


> I've been into audio since I was like 12 yrs old.  I've been on and off since.  Only recently did I really go nuts with head-fi.  I still love listening to speakers over headphones though, at least most of the time.  Yeah I have a friend that we do listening sessions every so often, so there has been an instance where someone asked me from head-fi if they could hear my gear, and joined us.


----------



## Permagrin

^ Upgrade to what?


----------



## KevinWolff

bi-amp'd headphones anyone? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Quote: 





permagrin said:


> ^ Upgrade to what?


----------



## brasewel

I bought his DAC when I visited his place. Luckily, I preferred my rig to his setups otherwise it would have my hurt my wallet


----------



## LiqTenExp

lol, we both bought a dac after that trip.


----------



## brasewel

There's an upcoming mini-meet  in Brooklyn, NY at someone's place. If anyone is interested post in that thread. Good chance to compare your rig to other setups.
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/559326/brooklyn-meet


----------



## Wedge

And luckily I like my gear compared to yours.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  I mean it gets to a point where we be splitting hairs I think.
  
  Quote: 





brasewel said:


> I bought his DAC when I visited his place. Luckily, I preferred my rig to his setups otherwise it would have my hurt my wallet


----------



## brasewel

Well it would have hurt me a lot more than you with all those tubes you have 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. I still would like to get the Leben primarily as a speaker amp. Does it distort with speakers as well if you turn the volume up?


----------



## KevinWolff

See? I can't afford to meet with any of you for a few months at least. Look how much damage I did just reading the forum.


----------



## Wedge

@Brasewel - No they don't.


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





kevinwolff said:


> See? I can't afford to meet with any of you for a few months at least. Look how much damage I did just reading the forum.


 

 I doubt you would want to upgrade from your current setup. At this level, it's all about personal preference.


----------



## KevinWolff

Here's what would happen in play form:
   
  Me:         "Wedge, why do you have that Leben if you already have a peak/volcano?"
  Wedge:  "To run my speakers. Sounds better, etc." 
  Me:         "Oh my god, It's now so obvious I need that too. And I need speakers! (repeat once for each additional item in his inventory) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  Quote: 





brasewel said:


> I doubt you would want to upgrade from your current setup. At this level, it's all about personal preference.


----------



## Wedge

At the P/V or Leben level, its not a sounds better so much as a sounds different situation.  Funny though, lately I haven't been listening to LCD-2s, or the P/V, or Leben.  I am running in HD-800s on my WA-5 right now, before this I had been listening to HE-6 out of the WA-5 lately, running in some tubes.


----------



## brasewel

Exactly. The differences are small that it is difficult to distinguish them. I doubt we would be able to tell the difference between the P/V and my Apache in a blind test. We had to go back and forth a couple times to really ascertain what one amp did better over the other. Go to page 158 and 159.
   
  Didn't know you got the HD800. Do you prefer it to the HE-6 or LCD-2?


----------



## Wedge

I don't prefer it, but I do recognize it as a good headphone, at least as of right now, but I don't have much time on them.  They are much better headphone than the Ed.10, but I still prefer my HE-6 and LCD-2s.


----------



## Skylab

The Leben is an exceptionally fine amp for speakers. Been running is with some B&W N805's lately, and the sound is shockingly good. For people who want one amp to do both speaker and headphone duty, and don't need to have boatloads of power for speakers, the Leben is hard to beat.

I'm very excited that I am getting a review loaner of the RWA Audeze Edition Isabella. I really liked the original Isabella, and so I have high hopes for the new RWA amp.


----------



## brasewel

Leesure is getting the first production unit of the RWA Audeze Isabella and I hope to have an extensive listen at his place.


----------



## Permagrin

^ Speaking of which, I forgot, was there an official answer about whether or not there will be a version without a DAC section?


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





permagrin said:


> ^ Speaking of which, I forgot, was there an official answer about whether or not there will be a version without a DAC section?






  Not sure about that. I don't think there will be a version without the DAC but I'm just speculating.


----------



## Permagrin

^ Given the availability of high quality "affordable" DACs right now it makes sense to me.


----------



## shamrock134

Any other suggestions for a budget dac/amp for the LCD2? Ideally something easy to source in the UK.
   
  Yoga, what do you make of the LCD2 / Nuforce HDP combo?


----------



## zilch0md

Hi KevinWolff,
  Quote: 





kevinwolff said:


> bi-amp'd headphones anyone?


 

 I've heard of this several times before, but I always have a hard time imagining how you would cable it all.  If you're starting with two SE amps, for example, using just one channel of each amp could improve the sound quality by creating a balanced configuration, but is there a way to use both channels in one SE amp to feed just one channel of your headphones (and both channels in the other SE amp to feed the other channel of your headphones)?  If so, wouldn't there be "electrical" problems associated with combining the channels?  What are the benefits?
   
  Explanations, links to articles, pictures of cables, etc. would be very much appreciated...
   
  Thanks!
   
  Mike


----------



## grokit

Monoblocks would be one way to do it:
   

   
  Obviously you would want to use balanced headphone cabling to hook them up like speakers.


----------



## sphinxvc

Quote:


skylab said:


> I'm very excited that I am getting a review loaner of the RWA Audeze Edition Isabella. I really liked the original Isabella, and so I have high hopes for the new RWA amp.


 

 Nice.


----------



## Loevhagen

Besides, no crosstalk in such an amp setup, just from the e.g. DAC. Hence, maybe a too technical sound.


----------



## brasewel

I really don't see the advantages of a bi-amped headphone over normal unlike speakers where it helps since you're offloading some of the load to the other amp since headphones don't demand as much juice. I could be wrong on this though.


----------



## grokit

Woo Audio is coming out with a new flagship monoblock headphone amp soon, should be around $8k so we'll see how that goes...


----------



## dagothur

Quote: 





grokit said:


> should be around $8k
> *should be around $8k*
> *should be around $8k*
> *should be around $8k*


 
  Sweet, now I just have to sell all of my possessions and work for six months to pay for it!


----------



## ETAHL

Quote: 





dagothur said:


> Sweet, now I just have to sell all of my possessions and work for six months to pay for it!


 


  Some of the prices of amps and DACs are just plain obscene.
  I am at the other end of the spectrum. The cost of my amp and DAC ( SMSL SA-36 + modded Muse TDA1543X4) for my LCD-2 total to a mere $150. The combo sounded better then much pricier setups that I have own and heard.


----------



## zilch0md

Quote: 





grokit said:


> Monoblocks would be one way to do it:
> 
> 
> 
> Obviously you would want to use balanced headphone cabling to hook them up like speakers.


 

 OK, so if you're starting with two single-ended headphone amps (stereo, not mono), this approach would just have you using one channel of each single-ended amp to emulate having a balanced amp.  I understand how to do this and I guess this is what's meant by the phrase "bi-amping."
   
*To anyone's knowledge, is there a way (or would you even want, for any reason) to merge both channels of a single-ended amp to drive one channel of your balance-cabled headphones, and do the same thing with the other single-ended amp to drive the other channel of your balance-cabled headphones? *  Just looking at one of the two SE amps, both of its channels would be fed with a single channel from your DAC.  Is this possible?  Are there any benefits?  Has anyone ever heard of doing this?   I'm thinking that even though each amp is handling the same signal in both of its channels, you just wouldn't want to connect both of the non-ground conductors of an SE amp's output to each other.  
   
  Lastly (just for fun):  Can two people scream more loudly than one?  Answer: Yes.  A crowd of people in a stadium can be heard much farther away than a single person yelling his brains out in that same stadium.
   
  Mike


----------



## brasewel

Bi-amplification is most beneficial in speaker-setups that require a lot of power so using 2 amps helps ease the pressure on a single amp. With headphones this is not the case so it's probably useless going this route.


----------



## Skylab

Bi-amping is not the use of one amp per speaker. Bi-amping is the use of one amp channel PER DRIVER such that you would use separate amp channels for the tweeter and one for the woofer. As such, there are almost no headphones made where bi-amping could be used.


----------



## KevinWolff

I was joking actually. I thought I made that up. That means to power the Hifiman he-7 properly you'll probably need 2 full size monoblocks 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Quote: 





zilch0md said:


> Hi KevinWolff,
> 
> I've heard of this several times before, but I always have a hard time imagining how you would cable it all.  If you're starting with two SE amps, for example, using just one channel of each amp could improve the sound quality by creating a balanced configuration, but is there a way to use both channels in one SE amp to feed just one channel of your headphones (and both channels in the other SE amp to feed the other channel of your headphones)?  If so, wouldn't there be "electrical" problems associated with combining the channels?  What are the benefits?
> 
> ...


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Bi-amping is not the use of one amp per speaker. Bi-amping is the use of one amp channel PER DRIVER such that you would use separate amp channels for the tweeter and one for the woofer. As such, there are almost no headphones made where bi-amping could be used.


 

 I was talking about vertical bi-amping where you use a single amp per speaker. You're talking about standard bi-amping where each amp is used for the tweeter and the woofer.


----------



## Skylab

Not to get too picky, but vertical bi-amping is when you use one stereo amp per speaker, driving the woofer with one amp channel and the tweeter (or mid-tweeter) with the other, and then you use the second amp to do the same with the other speaker.

In horizontal bi-amping you use one stereo amp for the tweeters or each speaker (so driving the right tweeter with one amp channel and the left tweeter with the other), and the other stereo amp for the woofers. Either way, you are driving separate drivers with each amp channel.

Using one amp to drive one whole speaker is just using mono block amps. It's not bi-amping.

I'm sorry to come across as the terminology nazi these days, but I think it's important to use these terms correctly.


----------



## pp312

Quote: 





etahl said:


> Some of the prices of amps and DACs are just plain obscene.
> I am at the other end of the spectrum. The cost of my amp and DAC ( SMSL SA-36 + modded Muse TDA1543X4) for my LCD-2 total to a mere $150. The combo sounded better then much pricier setups that I have own and heard.


 


 I'm with you. I use a Muse dac/amp (Aune Mk1) and get great results. I've been trying to talk myself into a Matrix M-Stage but the Muse sounds so good I just can't justify it to myself--damn!  As for those prices....I'm happy for those people who can afford it, and what they do with their money is their own business, but even if I had the money I think I'd be feeling too guilty about the starving children in Biafra to spend that much on a headphone amp.


----------



## brasewel

Yes that's what I meant, maybe I didn't convey it properly. I meant to say 1 amp per speaker with each amp driving the tweeter and woofer separately.


----------



## chris.d.m.

Quote: 





pp312 said:


> I'm with you. I use a Muse dac/amp (Aune Mk1) and get great results. I've been trying to talk myself into a Matrix M-Stage but the Muse sounds so good I just can't justify it to myself--damn!  As for those prices....I'm happy for those people who can afford it, and what they do with their money is their own business, but even if I had the money I think I'd be feeling too guilty about the starving children in Biafra to spend that much on a headphone amp.


 

 Sorry if I've missed this but is there any recent consensus on the top 2-3 amps on a budget that shine w/ the LCD-2's? 
  That is, for those of us that have made questionable decisions recently like 3k on converters and have a wife looking at us with askance disdain with the mere mention of another gear purchase....


----------



## dagothur

The HDP and Lyr are well recommended it seems.  I would go with the HDP as it's an amp/DAC combo.  By the way, what sort of converter cost you a used car?
  
  Quote: 





chris.d.m. said:


> Sorry if I've missed this but is there any recent consensus on the top 2-3 amps on a budget that shine w/ the LCD-2's?
> That is, for those of us that have made questionable decisions recently like 3k on converters and have a wife looking at us with askance disdain with the mere mention of another gear purchase....


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Not to get too picky, but vertical bi-amping is when you use one stereo amp per speaker, driving the woofer with one amp channel and the tweeter (or mid-tweeter) with the other, and then you use the second amp to do the same with the other speaker.
> 
> In horizontal bi-amping you use one stereo amp for the tweeters or each speaker (so driving the right tweeter with one amp channel and the left tweeter with the other), and the other stereo amp for the woofers. Either way, you are driving separate drivers with each amp channel.
> 
> ...


 

 I've actually done all three.


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> I've actually done all three.


 

 And your thoughts? I have my speakers bi-wired and they noticeably improved in sonics, imaging, bass extension, frequency etc.


----------



## dagothur

Quote: 





brasewel said:


> And your thoughts? I have my speakers bi-wired and they noticeably improved in sonics, imaging, bass extension, frequency etc.


 

   As far as I'm aware, bi-wiring can't improve your speaker's sound due to the super-position principal.


----------



## zilch0md

Thanks!
   
  Quote: 





skylab said:


> Bi-amping is not the use of one amp per speaker. Bi-amping is the use of one amp channel PER DRIVER such that you would use separate amp channels for the tweeter and one for the woofer. As such, there are almost no headphones made where bi-amping could be used.


 
   
  So, both vertical and horizontal bi-amping require a minimum of two drivers per speaker (or headphone transducer), thus it's impossible to bi-amp the LCD-2.
   
  With that clarified, let me put my question this way:  Is it possible (or would you even want) to use two 2-channel single-ended headphone amps as if each of them was a mono amp?  Considering only the right side, for example, the mono analog signal from the DAC's right channel would be split to feed both inputs of a 2-channel single-ended headphone amp, such that both channels of that amp are handling the identical signal.  The two outputs from that amp would be merged (is this possible?) to feed the right side of the LCD-2 via balanced cables.  Another 2-channel amp would be used in the same fashion to serve as a mono amp for the left side of the LCD-2.  
   
  Has anyone heard of doing this?  Would it be beneficial?  (I know that I can certainly use just one channel of each 2-channel amp, but I'm wondering if anyone has tried to merge both channels, and whether this would offer any benefit whatsoever, if possible.)
   
  Thanks,
   
  Mike


----------



## ETAHL

Quote: 





pp312 said:


> I'm with you. I use a Muse dac/amp (Aune Mk1) and get great results. I've been trying to talk myself into a Matrix M-Stage but the Muse sounds so good I just can't justify it to myself--damn!  As for those prices....I'm happy for those people who can afford it, and what they do with their money is their own business, but even if I had the money I think I'd be feeling too guilty about the starving children in Biafra to spend that much on a headphone amp.


 
   
  You can sleep better, the SMSL SA-36 T-amp is clearly a step above the Matrix M-Stage with the LCD-2, and at a much lower price. You do need a custom/DIY headphone cable with speaker connections to take advantage of the T-amp. 
  I have a Topping TP-D2, which has a similar topology to the Aune Mk1, the Matrix M-Stage does outperform it with the LCD-2.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





zilch0md said:


> Thanks!
> 
> 
> So, both vertical and horizontal bi-amping require a minimum of two drivers per speaker (or headphone transducer), thus it's impossible to bi-amp the LCD-2.
> ...


 

  
  I would sat that if one of the goals of balanced amplification is to isolate the left and right channel from each other to avoid crosstalk, then monoblocks would take that concept to another level.
  It might not be correct, but I would say it anyways 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Also regarding Woo's upcoming flagship, I'm sure that they don't expect to sell a whole lot of them. It's more to show what they are capable of to sell more of their other models. Kind of like the $100k turntable, with the maker hoping that it will boost sales of the $3k model. Or a new model of Corvette inspiring the sale of more Camaros.
   
  Here's the other end of the price spectrum:
  http://www.audiophileproducts.com/monoblock-amplifiers


----------



## brasewel

deleted


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





dagothur said:


> As far as I'm aware, bi-wiring can't improve your speaker's sound due to the super-position principal.


 

 Well unless I'm hearing wrong, it made a difference in my rig.


----------



## zilch0md

I give up.
   
  Thanks though...


----------



## dagothur

Quote: 





brasewel said:


> Well unless I'm hearing wrong, it made a difference in my rig.


 

 Not to say that your ears are of lesser quality or that it's a placebo, but if I'm understanding bi-wiring right then it doesn't make a difference, at least in terms of electronics.


----------



## grokit

As far as bi-amping/wiring goes, I totally hear a difference with my 7.1 receiver but it is designed for it. It has a setting that lets you give up the second room function, and direct that supposedly discrete power (class D) to the front tower speakers, using bi-wires. The receiver forces you select large size front speakers at this point, and stops letting you define the subwoofer LFE cutoff. It then uses it's own dsp-based internal crossover network to separate the lows from the highs going to the A/B speaker jacks in back. The final piece of the puzzle is to have speakers designed to receive the separated frequencies to the different drivers with dual binding posts.
   
  It is critical to use crossovers when bi-amping/wiring to make sure the correct frequencies are going to a given driver. There's really no point in doing it otherwise unless you just want more power to meet the speaker's driving requirements, which would be easy to do manually if your amp/receiver has the ability to play rooms A and B at the same time. There would be no point in even doing this unless it actually delegates more power to the second room this rather than just dividing it. Also you have to be quite certain that you hook the bi-wires up properly as it is easy to damage the speakers or even the amp(?) if done incorrectly.
   
  edit: I just checked out the superposition principle, and if you're referring to the phenomenon of wave interference, I would think that in my application the improvement that that I am hearing is constructive interference:
   
  "In some cases, such as in noise-cancelling headphones, the summed variation has a smaller amplitude than the component variations; this is called _destructive interference_. In other cases, such as in Line Array, the summed variation will have a bigger amplitude than any of the components individually; this is called _constructive interference_."


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





brasewel said:


> And your thoughts? I have my speakers bi-wired and they noticeably improved in sonics, imaging, bass extension, frequency etc.


 
  All though I've done all three I preferred mono blocks. The mono block route is far more sane. The other two paths get tricky. You start losing sleep over what amp to us for the tweeters, which to use for the midrange and which for the Bass, your wallet dries up. I wont even mention the insanity of the pre amp issue and crossovers.  Mono blocks are as far as any sane man should go.   My last pair of cone speakers were made for Tri-Wiring which I did using Cardas speaker cables.  It definitely makes a difference on a whole other level.  Krell amplification and Theta digital source, dedicated 20 amp electric circuits.    I prefer electrostatics over cones so mono blocks worked well there although I had 2 Janis subwoofers with them so that was two more mono blocks for them  with cross overs.  I had a full range set of maggies once, four panels across the room but I can't remember now how they were wired up.


----------



## kwkarth

Did you guys forget that this thread was for amp recommendations for the Audeze LCD-2?  Let's see what we can do to get things back on track please.
  Thx,
  k


----------



## pp312

Quote: 





etahl said:


> You can sleep better, the SMSL SA-36 T-amp is clearly a step above the Matrix M-Stage with the LCD-2, and at a much lower price. You do need a custom/DIY headphone cable with speaker connections to take advantage of the T-amp.
> I have a Topping TP-D2, which has a similar topology to the Aune Mk1, the Matrix M-Stage does outperform it with the LCD-2.


 

 Thanks. I've read many times that the T-amps are ideal for the LCD-2. The SMSL SA-36 is available here for around $40 shipped, but I'd need a power supply and custom cable. Any idea where the latter might be obtained?
   
  I had a little peek at the Topping TP-D2, but I'm not sure the topology is similar enough to the Aune to draw any conclusions re sound quality. Even small differences can wreak large changes.


----------



## ptrok

I was contemplating the purchase of the decware minitorii or the Leben for a speaker/headphone solution.
   
  I was wondering if the leben cs300 and the cs300sx were very different from each other. I can get the cs300 for about $2,000 new and the cs300xs would run me $3,000 in total. Is the xs model worth the extra cheese?
   
  Also, for a speaker/headphone solution, would the Decware or the Leben be better?
   
  Thanks in advance.


----------



## chris.d.m.

Quote: 





etahl said:


> You can sleep better, the SMSL SA-36 T-amp is clearly a step above the Matrix M-Stage with the LCD-2, and at a much lower price. You do need a custom/DIY headphone cable with speaker connections to take advantage of the T-amp.
> I have a Topping TP-D2, which has a similar topology to the Aune Mk1, the Matrix M-Stage does outperform it with the LCD-2.


 

 Curious if T amps should be in one of the top 3 spots for amps under 500 that are very friendly w Mr. LCD-2? 
  As well, what some other contenders might be?
   


  Quote: 





dagothur said:


> The HDP and Lyr are well recommended it seems.  I would go with the HDP as it's an amp/DAC combo.  By the way, what sort of converter cost you a used car?


 


  Burl B2 Bomber - 2 channel AD is about $2500. For recording and capturing a clear analog signal it should be on the top of the list (along w Forssell) for studio tracking.
  I have Lavry DA for now but,   Forssell DA is most likely the one to beat for 2 channel DA considerations. IME.


----------



## sesshin

I'm torn between a black DACmini and an Audio-gd NFB-2 + nice vintage Pioneer receiver. I can get either for <$1000.
   
  The DACmini obviously has synergy with the LCD-2, everyone seems to love that combo, but the Pioneer is damn sexy and Audio-gd makes a fine DAC.
   
  Anyone know how those two setups would stack up against each other?


----------



## sphinxvc

Chris, I think I'm in the same situation as you.  (Except w/ Hifiman's HE500s - similar efficiency)  I'd really like to get a WA6-SE or better for the my HPs but I'll have to wait at least a 8 months plus before my next big purchase.  So I'm looking at my options under $500 too.  And like you, I too already have a DAC.
   
  Along with the Lyr I think you can add the Gilmore Lite to your list, they usually go for about $250 in the FS forum.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> Did you guys forget that this thread was for amp recommendations for the Audeze LCD-2?  Let's see what we can do to get things back on track please.
> Thx,
> k


 


  kwkarth, are you implementing the "do as I say not what I do "rule?


----------



## ETAHL

Quote: 





pp312 said:


> Thanks. I've read many times that the T-amps are ideal for the LCD-2. The SMSL SA-36 is available here for around $40 shipped, but I'd need a power supply and custom cable. Any idea where the latter might be obtained?


 
   
  If you stay away from the custom cable guys and DIY, you can save some major bucks. You know what I mean when you check out the prices of custom cables.
  The LCD-2's mini-XLR connectors make changing and having multiple set of cables so easy.
   
  Here are the sources of  high quality cable components, nothing exotic. You can make one up yourself for under $40.

 Audeze LCD-2 connector wiring:
http://wiki.faust3d.com/wiki/index.php?title=Image:Audeze-lcd2-wiring-scheme.png

 Mini XLR, female, 4 pin:
http://www.redco.com/shopexd.asp?id=1301&bc=no

 High quality, 4 conductor cable:
http://www.redco.com/shopexd.asp?id=536

 Banana plugs:
http://www.redco.com/shopexd.asp?id=320&bc=no
   
   
  Most LCD-2 owners will never try a T-amp, even though it is so inexpensive to try. The barrier is the custom/DIY cable. Once you get pass that, many will know the meaning of bass control and sound stage. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  Happy DIY!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	












   
  The 12VDC power supply can also be obtain inexpensively. You might already have a few of these power bricks/wall warts laying around. You don't need a huge one, 12VDV 2A is more than adequate; you are not driving large demanding speakers.
  You can also use an inexpensive car battery booster pack. Those can be had for under $30. I got a small 300A one from Walmart on sale for $20. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Tough to beat a battery for smooth power. Due to high efficiency of T-amps, the power pack last me a week or more between charges.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> kwkarth, are you implementing the "do as I say not what I do "rule?


 


  Is that what you think I'm doing?  How far off the beaten track shall we let things go before having mercy on the folks that actually tune in for cogent information?


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





etahl said:


> If you stay away from the custom cable guys and DIY, you can save some major bucks. You know what I mean when you check out the prices of custom cables.
> The LCD-2's mini-XLR connectors make changing and having multiple set of cables so easy.
> 
> Here are the sources of  high quality cable components, nothing exotic. You can make one up yourself for under $40.
> ...


 
  For quality, USA made, bargain basement amps:
  To my ears, the Asgard is one of the better sounding and value amps for the LCD-2.  The Lyr is better sounding and tube rollable, but slightly more expensive.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> Is that what you think I'm doing?  How far off the beaten track shall we let things go before having mercy on the folks that actually tune in for cogent information?


 

 Well lets see. I seem to remember an unyielding and painful coma inducing derailment of this very thread about "grammar" from pages 179 thru 181 in which you not only participated in but at times became the prime mover of the completely unrelated topic itself. 
   
  I'm just sayin


----------



## Permagrin

kwkarth said:


> Is that what you think I'm doing?  How far off the beaten track shall we let things go before having mercy on the folks that actually tune in for cogent information?




I think the subject of this thread has been thoroughly exhausted yet I agree with you.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





sesshin said:


> I'm torn between a black DACmini and an Audio-gd NFB-2 + nice vintage Pioneer receiver. I can get either for <$1000.
> 
> The DACmini obviously has synergy with the LCD-2, everyone seems to love that combo, but the Pioneer is damn sexy and Audio-gd makes a fine DAC.
> 
> Anyone know how those two setups would stack up against each other?


 

 How about you try both setups and tell us how it goes


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





sesshin said:


> I'm torn between a black DACmini and an Audio-gd NFB-2 + nice vintage Pioneer receiver. I can get either for <$1000.
> 
> The DACmini obviously has synergy with the LCD-2, everyone seems to love that combo, but the Pioneer is damn sexy and Audio-gd makes a fine DAC.
> 
> Anyone know how those two setups would stack up against each other?


 
  Which vintage Pioneer receiver?


----------



## zzffnn

If the receiver is highly regarded, then the receiver / NFB-2 will likely sound better. That said, the receiver may need more space and time to maintain (may need some fix) and is not as transportable as Dacmini.


----------



## sesshin

Quote: 





grokit said:


> How about you try both setups and tell us how it goes


 


  haha i would only have a $1000 to spend though!

  
  Quote: 





warriorant said:


> Which vintage Pioneer receiver?


 

 it's the SA-9100 and TX-8100. found them locally for a song. seems like a well-liked combo over at Audiokarma


----------



## sesshin

Quote: 





zzffnn said:


> If the receiver is highly regarded, then the receiver / NFB-2 will likely sound better. That said, the receiver may need more space and time to maintain (may need some fix) and is not as transportable as Dacmini.


 


  good to know! not too concerned with portability, just sound quality. and the amp is supposed to be in really good condition, but I'm not opposed to doing a little work to get it pristine if need be.


----------



## castlevania32

I have a TA2020 sa36 lying around...i look at the stock cable of the audeze and just want to cut it's head off 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  Can someone tell me which strand (by color) should i wrap around the inputs, and how not to blow my headphones ? is there some resistor or something to solder ?


----------



## ETAHL

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> For quality, USA made, bargain basement amps:
> To my ears, the Asgard is one of the better sounding and value amps for the LCD-2.  The Lyr is better sounding and tube rollable, but slightly more expensive.


 
   
  I have heard both the Asgard and the Lyr. IMHO, the Asgard is OK and the Lyr is better with the LCD-2. No doubt, both are great values compare to other amps on the market. They are also a lot more flexible for headphone use than a T-amp, which is designed for speaker use.
   
  However, there is a special synergy between the LCD-2 and a T-amp.  I would not use the T-amp with my Grado or other dynamic headphones.

 You probably read tons of reviews of T-amps with speakers, they are all over the net. The LCD-2 driven by the T-amps reflect the same sonic qualities that make them such giant killers of speaker amps, but with no weakness in the bass. After all the LCD-2 is a much less demanding load than speakers.

 Guy that are already using the speaker connection of vintage speaker amps to drive their LCD-2, owe it to themselves to give these inexpensive T-amps a shot. It is so inexpensive to try and little to lose. They are great amps for a small speaker system.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
    
  Quote:


castlevania32 said:


> I have a TA2020 sa36 lying around...i look at the stock cable of the audeze and just want to cut it's head off
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

  
  Here:

 Audeze LCD-2 connector wiring:
 http://wiki.faust3d.com/wiki/index.php?title=Image:Audeze-lcd2-wiring-scheme.png
   
  If you have a spare stock LCD-2 cable, hacking it is an easy mod. With an OHM meter you can easily trace the wires.
   
   
  Chance of blowing the LCD-2 with these amps are slim. Realistically they are putting out about 6W of power. The LCD-2 is spec to be able to handle 15W.
   
  You can put a 10 ohm to 6 ohm, 10W resistor in parallel with each driver to fine tune the high frequency response. However, I don't find that made that much of a difference. Try it either way and see what you like; it is easy and inexpensive to do.
   
  Do not put any resistors inline with the wires. Signal passing through any resistor will be significantly degraded. I have tried, the sound stage just collapses.


----------



## KingStyles

If you just enjoy music and not the science of the sound, they can be enjoyable out of any amp shown by the wide range of amps suggested in this thread from portable to the $xxxxxx amps.


----------



## Wedge

But suppose you are looking for that AURAL SEX, I wonder which amp would suit them best?


----------



## oqvist

Quote: 





kingstyles said:


> If you just enjoy music and not the science of the sound, they can be enjoyable out of any amp shown by the wide range of amps suggested in this thread from portable to the $xxxxxx amps.


 


  Agree with that


----------



## KingStyles

Quote: 





> But suppose you are looking for that AURAL SEX, I wonder which amp would suit them best?


 
  Thats easy. The one with a tight 1/4 jack.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






   
  Aural sex is about enjoying the music, not trying to decipher everything that is going on in your setup. It doesnt take a very good system to be able to get lost in your favorite song. I have probably had more "eargasms" from bad systems because I wasnt trying to analyze them, I was just listening to them.


----------



## zzffnn

lol kingstyles. I agree.


----------



## Skylab

I have to confess that my one pairing of a T-amp and LCD-2 was not all that satisfying. I think the Meier Audio Stepdance portable sounded better, as would something like the pretty affordable Musical Paradise MP 301 mk II.


----------



## Wedge

I never got the rage over T-amps, all the supposed power benefits by the time you hit 50 ohms is lost, since most were designed for speaker loads, depends on how well it was designed, I guess.
  
  Quote: 





skylab said:


> I have to confess that my one pairing of a T-amp and LCD-2 was not all that satisfying. I think the Meier Audio Stepdance portable sounded better, as would something like the pretty affordable Musical Paradise MP 301 mk II.


----------



## Wedge

Haha, yeah I just try to listen these days.  I already know I don't hear these things as well as everyone else.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  Quote: 





kingstyles said:


> Thats easy. The one with a tight 1/4 jack.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## KingStyles

Its not a contest who can hear the best. Tin ears can be the happiest ears, or at least the happiest wallets.


----------



## ETAHL

Quote: 





skylab said:


> I have to confess that my one pairing of a T-amp and LCD-2 was not all that satisfying. I think the Meier Audio Stepdance portable sounded better, as would something like the pretty affordable Musical Paradise MP 301 mk II.


 
   
  The differences maybe due to different tubes in our MP301 and the particular manufacturer of the T-amp.
   
  I have listen extensively to my Musical Paradise MP301 mkII compared to my T-amp setup. The T-amp has much better bass texture and control. Also the MP 301 seems a bit too lay back and lacks the 'liveliness" of the T-amp.
   
  Everyone hears a bit differently and may have different preferences. The price of the T-amp is just a small fraction of the price of the Stepdance or the MP301, doesn't hurt to try.


----------



## sesshin

[size=medium]
  Quote: 





kingstyles said:


> Its not a contest who can hear the best. Tin ears can be the happiest ears, or at least the happiest wallets.






  ​[/size]

   
   
  Totally. I'm kind of jealous of the people I see out in public, lost in ecstasy listening to their favorite song as a 128kbps MP3 through an ipod with ear buds. Here I am with my exponentially more expensive setup, critically analyzing my 24.96 FLACS trying to figure where to throw more money at it to eke out just a smidgen more quality. Kind of sad really. lol.
   
  But hey, we all need hobbies.


----------



## tme110

how about the AGD NFB-10?  Better dac than the nfb2, gobs of power and balanced/SE
  
  Quote: 





sesshin said:


> haha i would only have a $1000 to spend though!
> 
> 
> 
> it's the SA-9100 and TX-8100. found them locally for a song. seems like a well-liked combo over at Audiokarma


----------



## pp312

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> For quality, USA made, bargain basement amps:
> To my ears, the Asgard is one of the better sounding and value amps for the LCD-2.  The Lyr is better sounding and tube rollable, but slightly more expensive.


 


 I appreciate that these amps are "bargain basement" to some, but the Lyr here in Oz is $550 and that's imported from Hong Kong, and having just spent $1000 I'm really not up for shelling out another $500, especially when I'm currently getting such (surprisingly?) good results from the Muse amp. Putting aside the T-Amp for the moment, I wouldn't go beyond the Matrix M-Stage, and if people tell me the Matrix is no real upgrade, and I decide the T-Amp is just too much trouble, the Muse will be it. I'd love to have cash to throw around, but as I'm 64 (and thus the subject of a Beatle's song), and have tinnitus, I'm not sure it would be money well spent. Perhaps a pipe and slippers would be a better investment.


----------



## ETAHL

Quote: 





wedge said:


> I never got the rage over T-amps, all the supposed power benefits by the time you hit 50 ohms is lost, since most were designed for speaker loads, depends on how well it was designed, I guess.


 
   
  The LCD-2 doesn't take a lot of power to drive. The maximum power going through the LCD-2 from a 12VDC powered T-amp is not going to exceed 2.5W. The volume knob on my T-amp is at 9 o'clock at a comfortable listening level, lots of power to spare.
   
  Good quality T-amp is so inexpensive and accessible; buy it to play with a pair of speakers just for giggles. You may be surprised at its performance. I did when it trounce my flagship Yamaha receiver in stereo. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
   
  Quote: 





pp312 said:


> I appreciate that these amps are "bargain basement" to some, but the Lyr here in Oz is $550 and that's imported from Hong Kong, and having just spent $1000 I'm really not up for shelling out another $500, especially when I'm currently getting such (surprisingly?) good results from the Muse amp. Putting aside the T-Amp for the moment, I wouldn't go beyond the Matrix M-Stage, and if people tell me the Matrix is no real upgrade, and I decide the T-Amp is just too much trouble, the Muse will be it. I'd love to have cash to throw around, but as I'm 64 (and thus the subject of a Beatle's song), and have tinnitus, I'm not sure it would be money well spent. Perhaps a pipe and slippers would be a better investment.


 
   
  Regardless of amp or DAC, the biggest upgrade is purchasing the LCD-2. It is a joy to listen to with any decent amp and DAC. Bring on the pipe and slippers.


----------



## MacedonianHero

etahl said:


> The LCD-2 doesn't take a lot of power to drive. The maximum power going through the LCD-2 from a 12VDC powered T-amp is not going to exceed 2.5W. The volume knob on my T-amp is at 9 o'clock at a comfortable listening level, lots of power to spare.
> 
> Good quality T-amp is so inexpensive and accessible; buy it to play with a pair of speakers just for giggles. You may be surprised at its performance. I did when it trounce my flagship Yamaha receiver in stereo.
> 
> ...




The ability to play loud (volume) does not show the full picture. The LCD-2s can sound great with lower power amps, no doubt, but they do respond to more power in terms of improved sound stage, bass control and improved treble.


----------



## athenaesword

anyone else care to share some comparisons between the schitt lyr and meier concerto with the LCD-2? both are available to me for about the same price right now!


----------



## ETAHL

Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> The ability to play loud (volume) does not show the full picture. The LCD-2s can sound great with lower power amps, no doubt, but they do respond to more power in terms of improved sound stage, bass control and improved treble.


 

  
  No arguments there.
  Luckily, a T-amp is not $8000, where only the privileged few can experience. It is only $50; every LCD-2 owner can easily get one and experience themselves first hand.


----------



## shamrock134

Trying to decide between the Nuforce HDP and the Audio-Gd FUN, hmmm...?
   
  Can anybody help?


----------



## schaaf

Hey guys,
   
  Not getting much love out on the Headphone forum, so I thought I would ask my questions here.
   
  Right now all I have is an iMac, some lossless files and some Senn. HD 555s. I was looking at getting Magnepan speakers, but have no room for them. Someone mentioned that the LCD-2 and the HE-500 have a similar sound and "open" quality and soundstage as the Maggie's. 
   
  I listen to mainly Dave Matthews, Lots of guitar based music (some acoustic some not.) Foo Fighters, Kings of Leon, 30 Seconds to Mars, and other stuff in there. 
   
  Looking to enjoy my music, not overly analyze it. (That doesn't mean however, that I am happy with any old sound, I am looking for great clarity and soundstage, and I'm into well reproduced bass, not "beats by dre" style, but a nice accurate thump is good.)
  I have never listened to any sort of high end (or is this mid-fi?) headphone setup before and being in Minnesota, I don't know if I really have a chance to.
   
  So after I buy the LCD-2s I'll still need an amp. 
   
  I think my top choices after reading and researching are:
  Woo WA-6SE
  Woo WA2 (Difference between this and the 6SE, I have no idea,..?)
  HA-160D
  Lyr
   
  or?
   
  Anything else in that 1200 or lower price range that I should be looking at? The disadvantage of the woo is lack of a DAC. The lyr leaves room in the budget  to purchase a separate one.
   
  No higher than 1200. I am already stretching that by 200. Comfortably 1000, but an extra 200 wouldn't kill me.
   
  Just looking for more opinions and input on these amps.
   
  Thanks everyone!
   
  S-


----------



## elnero

Quote: 





zzffnn said:


> If the receiver is highly regarded, then the receiver / NFB-2 will likely sound better. That said, the receiver may need more space and time to maintain (may need some fix) and is not as transportable as Dacmini.


 

 Have you heard the DACmini or any of the other items for that matter?


----------



## elnero

Quote: 





schaaf said:


> Anything else in that 1200 or lower price range that I should be looking at? The disadvantage of the woo is lack of a DAC. The lyr leaves room in the budget  to purchase a separate one.
> 
> No higher than 1200. I am already stretching that by 200. Comfortably 1000, but an extra 200 wouldn't kill me.


 

 You might want to consider a CEntrance DACmini, it has made for a nice DAC/Amp combo with the LCD-2's (and any other phones I've thrown at it) and at $800 it falls under budget although if you do go that route I'd suggest looking at the mods which might add a few dollars.


----------



## Currawong

Quote: 





shamrock134 said:


> Trying to decide between the Nuforce HDP and the Audio-Gd FUN, hmmm...?
> 
> Can anybody help?


 

 The NFB-12 would be a better bet than the Fun. At least it'll get you started and act as a very decent DAC once you can afford a better amp.


----------



## KevinWolff

You could get the Apex Peak for 1395.00 and add the volcano power supply later on. Possibly higher than you want to go, but it's another class of amp. Check the reviews.
  Plus you can play with tube rolling. It's fun and useful. Just before I wrote this I was listening to a tube that gave the amp an almost solid state signature. Details everywhere. But I get fatigued easily, so I just rolled in a more lush sounding laid back tube. You can get some great old tubes relatively cheap too. Basically it gives you room to play (read=buy more stuff), and that is major part of this hobby even if we hate to admit it. 
  
  Quote: 





schaaf said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> Not getting much love out on the Headphone forum, so I thought I would ask my questions here.
> 
> ...


----------



## KevinWolff

Do you have a dac? I just noticed your list has the 160D. That's the only one that has a built in dac. If you don't want that, the 160A would be the Burson to consider. None of the Woo's have Dacs, nor the Peak. 
  Wait, i'm slow today. I read the rest where you need a dac. In that case the 160D is the only viable option on your list. You should search the forum again for the top amp/dac combos under 1200
  
  Quote: 





schaaf said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> Not getting much love out on the Headphone forum, so I thought I would ask my questions here.
> 
> ...


----------



## shamrock134

Quote: 





currawong said:


> The NFB-12 would be a better bet than the Fun. At least it'll get you started and act as a very decent DAC once you can afford a better amp.


 

 Interesting, the NFB-12 is actually £100 cheaper than the FUN, but you'd say it is a better buy?


----------



## schaaf

Ok,
   
  Let me ask this then.
   
  What is the best amp for around 1200?  DAC not taken into account. I guess I would rather not have to upgrade an amp later... I mainly listen from my computer now, but dedicated sources in the future would be nice. 
   
  If the one on the 160D is good, and the amp is good with the LCD-2 then, great!
   
  I have never heard a tube amp, but am intrigued with what I could do with tubes and "rolling." ( is that just changing tubes?)
   
  If there are better amps in that price range that would be better paired with the LCD2, Then I can always just hook up my CD straight to the amp right? 
  The DAC is mainly needed for computer listening? I could always add the DAC later... I have a birthday in August!
   
  S-


----------



## ptrok

I agree with Elnero, the Dacmini is a great alternative below your price point with a great DAC included with it. It is great with the LCD-2's with a very clear and transparent sound. It does bring up the treble up a notch with pristine clarity. Also, ergonomically I have to say it is awesome, too. It has a small footprint and can also be a good standalone DAC if you follow the HI-FI anthem and keep buying more.
   
  I personally like it more than I thought I would, I log in at least 3 hours a day on it with my LCD-2's. With hi-rez music, it is simply jaw dropping. Just my 2 cents.


----------



## zzffnn

I suggest a 2 channel Beta 22 (USD 700-800), plus a Gamma 2 (USD 250-300). I am using this combo with LCD-2s.
   
  Edit: Gamma 2 is a DIY dac designed by AMB. Beta 22 is a DIY amp. You would want to find a builder to build those for you (search the forum for Beta 22 builders).
  
  Quote: 





schaaf said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> Not getting much love out on the Headphone forum, so I thought I would ask my questions here.
> 
> ...


----------



## Anthony1

Hi

I have the Buson 160A amp.. Does anybody recommend these phones with the Burson?


----------



## schaaf

Yeah, I have read that the Betas are nice with the LCD2, but I don't want to pay rockhopper 1800 bucks for one, and I didn't really want to wait for something to come along on the BST. I have no skills in anything electronics related, so DIY is out. I would have to find someone that builds them... I did a brief search, and it's something I may come back to or consider later on, but for now I guess the top contenders are still the WA6SE, 160D, or the Lyr.
   
  Thanks for all the replies everyone.


----------



## sachu

i would suggest for those interested in a Solid state amp to watch out for the Cavalli Audio Liquid Gold that i've had the pleasure of listening to for a year now. 
   
  I use the Liquid Gold prototype i built at work now. For the home front, i have something else that I am listening to right now


----------



## sphinxvc

Quote:


shamrock134 said:


> Interesting, the NFB-12 is actually £100 cheaper than the FUN, but you'd say it is a better buy?


 

 Probably because by the designer's own admission, they achieve the same level of SQ, so you may as well save some money.  The only advantage of the FUN is some modularity, you can tweak the sound by swapping op-amps in the DAC section (but the amp is fully discrete).


----------



## Permagrin

anthony1 said:


> Hi
> 
> I have the Buson 160A amp.. Does anybody recommend these phones with the Burson?




Definitely.


----------



## Permagrin

schaaf said:


> [...] So after I buy the LCD-2s I'll still need an amp.
> 
> I think my top choices after reading and researching are:
> Woo WA-6SE
> ...




Since you're using an iMac as source you need a DAC. And for $1200 you're in the right price range for a DAC with a competent headphone out, such as the aforementioned Burson (from what I've read anyway).

Another choice would be the not so well known Anedio D1, which I and a few others here happen to own. Unfortunately Anedio sold out their first run so fast that they're currently unavailable. :rolleyes: The revised D1 will have 192 khz USB->SP/DIF implentation onboard which will make it even more desirable. Here's the review thread if you're interested:

Review: Anedio D1 DAC - my new reference DAC (by project86)


----------



## schaaf

Quote: 





sachu said:


> i would suggest for those interested in a Solid state amp to watch out for the Cavalli Audio Liquid Gold that i've had the pleasure of listening to for a year now.
> 
> I use the Liquid Gold prototype i built at work now. For the home front, i have something else that I am listening to right now


 

 So what are you listening to at home?
   
  Also, How would you compare the sound from the LCD2 to your Maggies? I was looking to get a set of those (either the 12s or the 1.6s used) but don't have the space... thats why Im looking at the LCD2. '
   
   
   
  As for the suggestion for the Anedio, thanks! I took a brief look at your write up. Very thorough! I'll have to spend some time reading more about it tonight.


----------



## shamrock134

Shame the NFB-12 looks a bit ugly compared to the FUN!
   
  Deciding on a budget amp/dac is a lot trickier than I thought it'd be, especially since there aren't many options available when ordering from within the UK.
   
  Nuforce HDP, Audio-Gd FUN or NFB-12.....or run it from my Graham Slee for a bit and save up for something nicer. Hmmm.
   
  Quote: 





sphinxvc said:


> Probably because by the designer's own admission, they achieve the same level of SQ, so you may as well save some money.  The only advantage of the FUN is some modularity, you can tweak the sound by swapping op-amps in the DAC section (but the amp is fully discrete).


----------



## Permagrin

schaaf said:


> So what are you listening to at home?
> 
> Also, How would you compare the sound from the LCD2 to your Maggies? I was looking to get a set of those (either the 12s or the 1.6s used) but don't have the space... thats why Im looking at the LCD2. '
> 
> ...




That's one of the many reviews done here by the very helpful project86. I just spam the link. 

Also wish I had space for Maggies.


----------



## sachu

Quote: 





schaaf said:


> So what are you listening to at home?
> 
> Also, How would you compare the sound from the LCD2 to your Maggies? I was looking to get a set of those (either the 12s or the 1.6s used) but don't have the space... thats why Im looking at the LCD2. '


 
  I can't yet divulge details on the amp I am listening to now at home...but soon enough 
   
   
  The LCD-2 is a very different animal compared to the Magnepans. 
   
  While they share similar tonal qualities (the magnepans are a bit more well balanced out at in the highs), the presentation is entirely different which changes how you perceive and what you enjoy when listening to either system.
  Overall, I vastly prefer the Magnepans over the LCD_2s, even with the fact that the system around the LCD-2 is as very well matched as that with the mgnepans and just as expensive, if not more. 
   
  That is not to say that the LCD-2s suck, its just that I prefer speakers over headphones, but headphones do have their place in my life, especially when wanting to listen at night, working on my computer (like i am now), at work or soon for late night before I go to bed  (setting up a bedroom rig soon). Headphones used to be everything for me the past 4 years cause of y living situation (as it is for a lot of people here am sure) which is how i wound up on this site in the first place.
  They have their place, but they'll never replace the experience that comes with speakers for me.


----------



## schaaf

Well....
   
   
  Crap. 
   
  I was hoping they would be like putting little Magnepans on your head.
  See, the problem is, I have heard that sweet, sweet Maggie sound. And Im not sure that I can be ok with headphones. 
   
  I wonder if I should just try to make the room for them, or just go with nice phones and an amp. I have been meaning to buy new headphone and an amp for years tho...


----------



## sachu

The LCD-2 is the best non electrostat headphone that will get you close to the magnepan sound. The O2 + BHSE (this level or up on amps) will fare better, but still doesn't match up simply cause its a headphone and the presentation is not "natural". 
   
  If you can go speakers, do it. Its worth it IMO.


----------



## schaaf

Quote: 





sachu said:


> The LCD-2 is the best non electrostat headphone that will get you close to the magnepan sound. The O2 + BHSE (this level or up on amps) will fare better, but still doesn't match up simply cause its a headphone and the presentation is not "natural".
> 
> If you can go speakers, do it. Its worth it IMO.


 

 What is the O2 + BHSE?
   
  If you had to give up your speakers, would you be happy with the LCD2s? or would you seek something more?
   
  Thanks for your help thus far.


----------



## monoethylene

O2 = Stax O2
   
  BHSE = Blue Hawaii Single Ended? Electrostatic Amp


----------



## sachu

No I wouldn't give up the speakers if I can help it.
   
   
  I can definitely be happy with the LCD-2s, the O2s would probably spread a broader smile on my face.. wish i had some spare time to build a Blue Hawaii electostat amplifier, cause that along with the O2 would be the headphone rig that I would be VERY happy with even with the better soudning speaker rig. And note taht my speaker rig is by no means a high end rig. Its a modest mid end rig IMHO. Its just a lot of bang for the buck and  just works for my tastes. Also being single with no roomies helps in maximizing my rig's potential by pulling the panels 4.25 feet off the rear wall which helped things tremendously.


----------



## castlevania32

Quote: 





etahl said:


> Here:
> 
> Audeze LCD-2 connector wiring:
> http://wiki.faust3d.com/wiki/index.php?title=Image:Audeze-lcd2-wiring-scheme.png
> ...


 

 ok so on the right channel the two cables are red and black. Left side its orange and some kind of brown/violet color
  I guess the ground is black on the right side but for left ?
  So i just cut off the 1/4, cut the plastic around the wires and wrap them around the T-amp inputs ?
   
  edit : NVM i just found out the brown and black are soldered to the ground
   
  edit2 : trying it right now, huge hiss and channel imbalance...maybe i should go with banana plugs ?


----------



## ETAHL

Quote: 





castlevania32 said:


> ok so on the right channel the two cables are red and black. Left side its orange and some kind of brown/violet color
> I guess the ground is black on the right side but for left ?
> So i just cut off the 1/4, cut the plastic around the wires and wrap them around the T-amp inputs ?
> 
> ...


 

 Make sure the left and right channel grounds are correct. T-amps do not have a common ground like most amps. The grounds of each channel has to be correct and they must not be shorted together.
   
  The noise floor of the T-amps are not completely black,  there will be some hiss. This is why I don't recommend the amp for high efficient headphones, the hiss may be unbearable. With the LCD-2, you can hear it with no input signal, but once the music is on, it is not noticeable.
  I have modded a T-amp with half the gain and half the hiss. The volume knob can be turn to 12 o'clock at listening level, a lot more range of adjustment for the headphone.


----------



## KevinWolff

*Shaaf* - I second the d1 dac/amp. I used the the headphone amp with my LCD-2's and although I found it a little too neutral, you're still new to headfi and may not care. Then you could save for a better amp. The d1 is $1270 do and arguably one of the best dacs in the price range right now.


----------



## ianmedium

Not sure if anyone has seen Triad audio's new website but the New L3 takes pride of place and it will be the next amp I get to power my LCD's!

It looks absolutely beautiful and they have now finalized that it will be constructed of tiger wood body and maple end's, it will match the LCD's perfectly I think!

http://triadaudio.net/?page_id=257


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





schaaf said:


> Well....
> 
> 
> crap.
> ...


 
  Get the Maggies.  find the space in your dwelling somehow.  You probably don't need as much space as you think for the Maggies your interested in.   Remember  you can find the right placement for the maggies in your space and then you can mark the placement and move them out of the way when your not listening.  That "sweet" maggie attraction you're drawn to will only come from your maggies.


----------



## sphinxvc

Quote:


shamrock134 said:


> Shame the NFB-12 looks a bit ugly compared to the FUN!
> 
> Deciding on a budget amp/dac is a lot trickier than I thought it'd be, especially since there aren't many options available when ordering from within the UK.
> 
> Nuforce HDP, Audio-Gd FUN or NFB-12.....or run it from my Graham Slee for a bit and save up for something nicer. Hmmm.


 

 On that note, Kingwa also admits the Sparrow equals the other two.  You could save even more money.


----------



## TruBrew

I have to agree with everyone who says maggies are better. I used to have a pair of MG12's. they are without a doubt, the best think I have ever owned. I don't know why I ever sold them.Whenever sound leakage no longer becomes a problem, I will get myself another pair.


----------



## zilch0md

Ian,
   
  Quote: 





ianmedium said:


> Not sure if anyone has seen Triad audio's new website but the New L3 takes pride of place and it will be the next amp I get to power my LCD's!
> 
> It looks absolutely beautiful and they have now finalized that it will be constructed of tiger wood body and maple end's, it will match the LCD's perfectly I think!
> 
> http://triadaudio.net/?page_id=257


 

 It looks as if you can pre-order to save 10% - that's a $70.00 savings!   It's a good thing they're asking $700.00 for it.  The savings wouldn't be nearly as substantial if they offered 10% off of only three or four hundred dollars.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Just kidding - from what I've heard about its predecessor, the Lisa III, this thing will be killer.  
   
  But one last hit (not to discourage the purchase, but rather just to express my opinion) - I wonder if it can be ordered without the laser-engraved logo.  
   
  They are in serious need of a good graphics design artist.  
   

   
  Mike


----------



## KevinWolff

Agreed. It actually hurts to look at it. 
  
  Quote: 





zilch0md said:


> Ian,
> 
> 
> It looks as if you can pre-order to save 10% - that's a $70.00 savings!   It's a good thing they're asking $700.00 for it.  The savings wouldn't be nearly as substantial if they offered 10% off of only three or four hundred dollars.
> ...


----------



## ianmedium

zilch0md said:


> Ian,
> 
> 
> It looks as if you can pre-order to save 10% - that's a $70.00 savings!   It's a good thing they're asking $700.00 for it.  The savings wouldn't be nearly as substantial if they offered 10% off of only three or four hundred dollars.
> ...




hey Mike.
Got your PM, we will have to await results eh! Interesting research though, thank you! As to this one, I actually really like the engraving, having said that when I get one I will never see it as the solo will be stacked on top of it! I wonder if a wooden case is better sonically. First thing I thought to myself was, heck, it is going to match the LCD's perfectly!


----------



## MacedonianHero

athenaesword said:


> anyone else care to share some comparisons between the schitt lyr and meier concerto with the LCD-2? both are available to me for about the same price right now!




The Concerto is a great amp for the LCD-2s, but they do "kick it up a notch" with the Lyr and the proper tubes (my 2 favourites are the Genalex Gold Lions and Mullard CV2492s). The treble can be somewhat too muted with the Concerto and the bass a bit out of control in comparison to the Lyr. The sound stage depth and width is also better with the Lyr. kwkarth was right when he said the Lyr "kicks like a mule". 

The Concerto is a more versatile amp for dynamic headphones (low impedance/highly efficient headphones), but for orthos, the Lyr is my "go to" amp.


----------



## sachu

The Triad Audio L3 is not something i'd use for powering the LCD-2. But that's just me. Yes I have heard it with the LCD-2


----------



## zilch0md

Hey Sachu,
   
  I don't know if you've heard the LCD-2 with a Stepdance, but would you suspect the Triad Audio L3 to be an improvement over the Stepdance (for use with the LCD-2)?    
   
  Ian and I (and several other people) are thrilled with the way the Stepdance sounds with the LCD-2 (especially when the Stepdance is powered with 15 Volts.)
   
  Thanks!
   
  Mike
   
  Quote: 





sachu said:


> The Triad Audio L3 is not something i'd use for powering the LCD-2. But that's just me. Yes I have heard it with the LCD-2


----------



## athenaesword

hey thanks for the reply.
   
  how did the concerto compare with the lyr using only stock tubes? it may take me awhile before i get to start rolling tubes. also how much did those tubes cost you? if i have to spend another significant amount on tubes that'll make the lyr more expensive than the meier concerto for me now.
   
   
   
   
   
  Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Stitch

Does anyone have experience with the LCD-2 on a GS-1 or LD MKIII?
  The GS-1has been mentioned a few times but didnt realy made me wiser, or i missed it.


----------



## zzffnn

GS-1 should work well. LD MK3 will not. I had HD595 with LD MK3, not a good combo IMHO; while HD595 on AMB M3 is very good. Beta 22 with LCD-2s are a level above. I think ASR had LCD-2s with GS-X and Beta 22 and he consider both to be at the same level.


----------



## grokit

nvm


----------



## ianmedium

zilch0md said:


> Hey Sachu,
> 
> I don't know if you've heard the LCD-2 with a Stepdance, but would you suspect the Triad Audio L3 to be an improvement over the Stepdance (for use with the LCD-2)?
> 
> ...




The stepdance is wonderful with the LCD's especially through Mikes hard work on the 15v power supply.
Skylab, a reviewer I trust more than anyone else here for reviews rates the L3 highly with the LCD's. Sachu can you say why you think it is not so great?


----------



## pp312

Ok, I just decided to put myself out of my misery and pulled the trigger.........on a Matrix M-Stage, so those of you with bad things to say about the M-Stage/LCD-2 pairing can now take your fingers off the keys and think again. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  But seriously, there are no Beta 22s or even Schiit Lyrs in my future, so this is it. I may splurge a little later on the $20 Class A mod but that definitely will be it. The convex of my improved equipment and deteriorated hearing has now been reached and anything better would be lost in a haze of tinnitus whistling. Ah, the joys of age!
   
  Please, someone, say something nice about the M-Stage, just to tide me over till it arrives. And say something encouraging about reliability!


----------



## LiqTenExp

Itssss backkkkkkkkk
   
  and works this time.
   

   
  I am going to hold off on throwing in my Tungsol VT229 BGRP and Tunsol 5998 in for a little.  This thing looks the part and is already sounding the part (according to my wife).  I am on travel this week and will report back sometime friday.
   
  I was able to convince my wife to un-pack it, put the tubes in, hook it up via XLR cables to the balanced out of my PS audio dl III, and hook that ps audio dl III to my Pure iPod dock via optical.  Then I asked her listen to it with my 1/4" LCD-2 cables and then my 4 pin balanced LCD-2 cables.  She has never done any of this type of connecting/hooking up of anything and she was able to do it right the first time.  Both ports works and she thought it sounded good.  I was even able to convince her to take a picture to tide me over till I can get home.
   
  I can't wait!


----------



## Permagrin

Congrats Liquid! That amp looks sweet as well as the Norse Audio cable!


----------



## LiqTenExp

Yeah I like the norse cable construction.  I have both the 1/4" SE and 4 pin balanced terminated versions.


----------



## TheWuss

Nice. The mkvi is a really wonderful sounding amp.
It has its issues (fans, early failure rate) but if you get past those successfully, then great sound is in store for sure.
I think the lcd balanced thru mkvi is very good indeed.
5 watts. Hahahaha


----------



## LiqTenExp

Yeah, maybe they have improved the fans but I didn't hear them nor did my wife.  
   
  I have gotten over the DOA/failure hurdle.  
   
  I think I may be in the clear.
   
  Yes I can't wait for 5+ W.  David said it would actually be closer to 10W into 50 ohms.  Either way it is more than enough power for every headphone out there.  It was meant to power K1K and that means it will do HE-6 also.  
   
  I have 300 dollars worth of tubes just waiting to be rolled into it already.


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





liqtenexp said:


> Itssss backkkkkkkkk
> 
> and works this time.
> 
> ...


 

 Very nice.
  I agree with sachu that the LCD-2 will never replace the sound you get from a good pair of speakers. I only listen to my LCD-2 at night or when I can't turn the volume up on my speakers. Headphones just can't reproduce that airy feeling you get when listening to speakers.


----------



## Duckman

Bit late maybe, but I recommend this combo. Very punchy and lively. Its imagery is very palpable. Fun to listen to.
   
  If you needed a DAC and could spring for the 160D, I doubt you'd be dissapointed. I've heard it for an extended period on a couple of occasions, and was surprised that in some ways I preferred it over my old Anedio D1/Violectric V200 combo, and would have no hesitation in getting it if the budged were limited to $1200 or so.
   
  If, like you say, the amp is the priority, I'd say the Lyr and the HA160 are on a similar level, though have never done a side by side comparison (but owned the Lyr briefly).
   
  The amplifier in the Anedio D1 DAC does drive the LCD2 well, but not better than the Burson HA160D. Also the D1 DAC section has IMO a slight thinness in the mids that I did not like over time. However, that is a matter of taste and luckily Anedio has a generous 30-day trial period, whereas Burson don't - though some of their dealers might.
   
  I'm rambling, but should mention in fairness that the D1 DAC was jaw-dropping in most other areas and paired well with the LCD2.
  
  Quote: 





anthony1 said:


> Hi
> 
> I have the Buson 160A amp.. Does anybody recommend these phones with the Burson?


----------



## schaaf

Can you guys help me understand some things about Amps?
   
   
  How do you read specs from 1 amp to the next?
  Example. So between the Lyr and the 160D which one is more powerful? How do you tell? 
  Math and numbers are NOT my area of expertise. 
   
  From the Lyr:
  Headphone Impedance: 8-600 ohms  (Huh?)
 Gain: 10 (20 dB)  - (Do I need to worry about this?)
 Frequency Response: 2Hz-200KHz, -3dB
 Maximum Output: 40V P-P into 32 ohms (6 watts RMS)  
   
  Help?
   
  Thanks!


----------



## dagothur

There are wikis for this, by people with hardware expertise, on the site.
 Edit: They can likely explain it in much greater detail and clarity than we can.
  Quote: 





schaaf said:


> Can you guys help me understand some things about Amps?
> 
> 
> How do you read specs from 1 amp to the next?
> ...


----------



## LiqTenExp

Well here is my short explanation to your questions:
   
  Headphone Impedance: 8-600 ohms  (Huh?) - This is a measure of the impedance (AC resistance) of the internal wiring of the headphone driver.  The amplifier you are using must be rated to drive this.  Usually amplifiers will say they work with a certain range of impedance.  If you buy an amplifier that is not rated for the headphones impedance it will not be able to drive them properly in output power and potentially frequency response (when using an amp that's output goes through a transformer).

 Gain: 10 (20 dB)  - (Do I need to worry about this?) - This can help you determine amplification factor of the amp.  You would need to know your line input voltage level and covert that to dB to figure out what amount of gain the setup would have.  This gain be useful when you know your headphones sensitivity and your line level input.  I wouldn't worry too much about this at first.  Most amps come with either selectable or fixed gain number.  It will be useful if you want to know if the amp can drive the headphones to your desired listening level.
   
  Frequency Response: 2Hz-200KHz, -3dB - Most everything on here will meet or exceed 20Hz to 20kHz since that is the maximum range of human hearing.  The -3dB is one standard to let you know how the frequency response was measured.  What this means is that the output dropped from some reference level in the middle of the frequency response to -3 dB (half the power).  Where that drop occurred on the frequency plot is the frequency they recorded.  This occurs on the low and high side of the graph to give you those two numbers.  Some amps will be measured like this and/or at the -1.5 dB point. (1/4 the power).  
   
  Maximum Output: 40V P-P into 32 ohms (6 watts RMS) - This is the maximum output power of the amp.  You will notice it is usually followed by x amount of power into x amount of ohms.  You need to reference the impedance of the device it is driving.  For solid state outputs that are usually low impedance the lower you go the more power it will produce.  Generally solid state drive devices have a low output impedance (in the single digits). Tube amplifiers depending on construction (driving into a capacitor) can go the other way.  This is due to them generally having a higher impedance.  One general rule that you'd learn in some form of AC electronics class is that the most power is transferred when the two devices impedance match.  The closer they are the more power is transferred.  So if you are buying a high impedance headphone (over 300 ohms) generally you would be looking at a tube amp or a high power solid state amp (something with enough brute force to still have enough output power at the higher impedance).   The opposite applies to low impedance headphones. 
   
  One thing to notice is that they give a number of ~6W.  To calculate that you can't just put 40V into an equation (P = (V*V)/R).  40Vpp = 40 V peak to peak (looking at a complete cycle of a sine wave this would be the max and minimum voltage the peak positive and peak negative portion of the sine wave achieves).  Watts in this case is not peak it is RMS.  You would need to take half the Vpp to give you Vp (40/2) then convert Vp to Vrms (20* .707) then square that number (14.14 * 14.14) and divide that number by 32 ohms.  That gives you around 6.24 W.
   
  Headphones are generally specified to a max power input.  The other side of that story is sensitivity.  You won't see that mentioned on an amp (as an output spec) but it will be on headphones (as an input spec).  It will let you know how loud they will get given a certain input power.  You can use this to figure out if an amp will make your headphones loud enough for you given listening level in dB.  It is generally listed as a ratio of dB/V or dB/mV.  It lets you know with a given amount of voltage what the audio sound level would be in dB. 
   
  This is more info that you probably needed, some of it was simplified a little and therefore not totally accurate to the fullest technical level.  It should help a little though.  Overall you need to match your headphones and amp together.  Once that has been achieved you know you can use them together.  Now certain amps tonally sound different and may pair better with certain headphones.  Once you achieve a balance of the two you will have reached audio nirvana for that setup.
   
  (for you super technical guys don't murder my oversimplified explanations here and there, please correct me though if it was blatantly wrong)


----------



## Wedge

In reference to high impedance cans and tube amps this is only true for OTL type, Transformer Coupled outputs generally work well with whatever impedances the secondaries were designed for.  Solid State will matter a lot if it is class A etc, and the voltage rails of the devices with respect to the current biasing, so an example is the Apex Peak and Arete which find their power sweet spots around 50 Ohms, and at 32 Ohms or 120 Ohms it will have lower power available.
   
  Quote:


liqtenexp said:


> Maximum Output: 40V P-P into 32 ohms (6 watts RMS) - This is the maximum output power of the amp.  You will notice it is usually followed by x amount of power into x amount of ohms.  You need to reference the impedance of the device it is driving.  For solid state outputs that are usually low impedance the lower you go the more power it will produce.  Generally solid state drive devices have a low output impedance (in the single digits). Tube amplifiers depending on construction (driving into a capacitor) can go the other way.  This is due to them generally having a higher impedance.  One general rule that you'd learn in some form of AC electronics class is that the most power is transferred when the two devices impedance match.  The closer they are the more power is transferred.  So if you are buying a high impedance headphone (over 300 ohms) generally you would be looking at a tube amp or a high power solid state amp (something with enough brute force to still have enough output power at the higher impedance).   The opposite applies to low impedance headphones.


----------



## LiqTenExp

yes yes hence me putting in quotes (driving into a cap) aka OTL, lol
   
  or if you had a LYR all impedances are fair game for dynamic headphones


----------



## chris.d.m.

Quote: 





sphinxvc said:


> Chris, I think I'm in the same situation as you.  (Except w/ Hifiman's HE500s - similar efficiency)  I'd really like to get a WA6-SE or better for the my HPs but I'll have to wait at least a 8 months plus before my next big purchase.  So I'm looking at my options under $500 too.  And like you, I too already have a DAC.
> 
> Along with the Lyr I think you can add the Gilmore Lite to your list, they usually go for about $250 in the FS forum.


 
  Gotta look at the Gilmore lite.
  Truth is, I suffer from I want a great LCD2 synergy amp that provides a touch of top end while retaining clarity and low end tightness at a budget price 
  Oh, and able to receive balanced input from my DAC.  Recent purchases have left me a snob with a low budget. One of those annoying people 
   
  I do have an Adcom 535 feeding some monitors in the studio.  There's a low level hum (due to it being an unbalanced input being fed a balanced output)
  If I could just figure out a way to get it modded to balanced, and add some resisters to try it as a HP amp...


----------



## sphinxvc

Quote: 





chris.d.m. said:


> Gotta look at the Gilmore lite.
> Truth is, I suffer from I want a great LCD2 synergy amp that provides a touch of top end while retaining clarity and low end tightness at a budget price
> Oh, and able to receive balanced input from my DAC.  Recent purchases have left me a snob with a low budget. One of those annoying people
> 
> ...


 

 Balanced and under $500, huh?  Tough, good luck.  Modded Adcom 535 sounds interesting.
   
  FWIW though, the Gilmore Lite / LCD2 synergy is good.  A couple of veteran head-fiers like El Doug have/or had the pairing.  His was a very similar set up at the NY meet in March.  DA11 > Gilmore Lite > LCD2s.  You could probably PM him for a more useful opinion on the G. Lite.


----------



## sachu

Listening to a very very special amp here ...damn is this reference quality or what!!


----------



## blur510

hmmm... you get your LF?
  
  Quote: 





sachu said:


> Listening to a very very special amp here ...damn is this reference quality or what!!


----------



## Stitch

Isn't the gillmore lite the gs-1's smaller brother? Or about equal with psu?


----------



## elnero

Quote: 





sphinxvc said:


> Balanced and under $500, huh?  Tough, good luck.  Modded Adcom 535 sounds interesting.
> 
> FWIW though, the Gilmore Lite / LCD2 synergy is good.  A couple of veteran head-fiers like El Doug have/or had the pairing.  His was a very similar set up at the NY meet in March.  DA11 > Gilmore Lite > LCD2s.  You could probably PM him for a more useful opinion on the G. Lite.


 
  I'm a big fan of HeadAmp products and have always regretted having to sell my GS-1 a few years back so when I bought LCD-2's the first budget minded home amp that came to mind was a Gilmore Lite. It's a great little amp but I thought it made for only a mediocre pairing with the LCD-2's. Granted it may have been a synergy issue with the Pico DAC but I did try it with the DAC from a Headroom Desktop Portable as well with not much better results.


----------



## sachu

Quote: 





blur510 said:


> hmmm... you get your LF?


 

 nope...this is a completely different beast.


----------



## blur510

really?  Is it a secret? share it with the rest of us please? 
  Quote: 





sachu said:


> nope...this is a completely different beast.


----------



## K_19

Gilmore Lite definitely works quite well on a budget, but at sacrifice of some warmth and the weight. Found it a little too clinical for my liking personally.


----------



## sachu

Quote: 





blur510 said:


> really?  Is it a secret? share it with the rest of us please?


 

 will have to wait. I'll only say that to me the Liquid Fire that was at 32Ohm Audio sounded superior.
   
  Quote: 





k_19 said:


> Gilmore Lite definitely works quite well on a budget, but at sacrifice of some warmth and the weight. Found it a little too clinical for my liking personally.


 

 Its an entry level amp IMO and does just ok with orthos. And yes it is clinical and i find this to be true with the GSX as well FWIW.


----------



## goofyvic

Anyone tried LCD2 with Cary Audio Xciter class A push-pull amplifier?


----------



## Francoy

I’ve noticed that Alo audio seem to be big on the Miniwatt/LCD-2 pairing. And I don’t find much info on that particular combo in comparison with other matches for the LCD-2. I mean, if the Miniwatt is any good, it would be a great budget tube solution that many people seem to be looking for around here. (just seems odd to pair a $1K can with a $350 tube amp).
   
  Any thoughts from people with experience with that combo?


----------



## castlevania32

T-AMP : i tried again, reconnecting the cables...the same problem, a significant hiss instead of a black background.When i turn up the volume pot the music covers it but i know it is still here.
   
  Listenning to it, it seems there is more bass (not tighter) and wider soundstage.
   
  It might be my setup, bad power supply, defective t-amp, i don't know, but if the hiss youre talking about is normal, well then that's just automatically disqualifying no matter how much improvement there is to the sound from my point of view 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Edit : the maximum volume i can listen with it is 9 oclock, and it's already deafening. Also it seems more bright


----------



## Frank I

When I looked into Virtue amps I was told by the owner they would hiss with headphones unless I used a battery pack for the power supply. Not all speaker amps can drive headphones properly .


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





goofyvic said:


> Anyone tried LCD2 with Cary Audio Xciter class A push-pull amplifier?


 

 Not many people have answered that question and I think because it expensive. You could buy a Leben for about the same money from Japan. I am interested in as to how it sounds too.


----------



## brasewel

^^ I think Warp08 had that amp and was selling it off a while ago.


----------



## goofyvic

[VIDEO][/VIDEO]





frank i said:


> Not many people have answered that question and I think because it expensive. You could buy a Leben for about the same money from Japan. I am interested in as to how it sounds too.



Yes at that price, there are many options. I'm interested because I have some RCA black plates 6L6, philips 7581A and russian 6n3cE which can be used on the amp.

I wanted to try full tube amp on the LCD2. Very tempted to get the darkvoice 336c for the fun of it since it's relatively low cost. :rolleyes: I have quite a number of 6sn7 around for rolling


----------



## ETAHL

Quote: 





castlevania32 said:


> T-AMP : i tried again, reconnecting the cables...the same problem, a significant hiss instead of a black background.When i turn up the volume pot the music covers it but i know it is still here.
> 
> Listenning to it, it seems there is more bass (not tighter) and wider soundstage.
> 
> ...


 
   
  It is true, the background of the T-amp is not black. You can hear it with no input. The hiss on my T-amp is quite low, lower than most tube amps and less than the floor noise of many of my CDs.
   
  Here is a few things to try:
   
  If your T-amp is new it might need some burn-in time. The hiss does fade with some use.
   
  Find a pair of 6.8 or 8 ohm, 10 watt resistors and hook each one in parallel to each channel, across the speaker terminals, just as each drivers of the headphone. This will change the high frequency roll-off of the T-amp, and reduce the brightness and some of the hiss.
   
  If you have a better 12V power supply, give it a try, it may help.
   
   
  Listen to the T-amp for awhile and then listen to your Matrix M-Stage. IMHO, the M-Stage has more bass, but sound a bit bloated compare to the T-amp, and less 'lively'.


----------



## Wedge

Quote: 





brasewel said:


> ^^ I think Warp08 had that amp and was selling it off a while ago.


 


  No he had Cary Audio SLI-80.


----------



## athenaesword

wouldn't that mean that the hiss is still present even when stuff is playing? that means your "lively" sound is probably just distortion from the additional hiss. it sure will sound more realistic with all that extra noise, but I doubt it's a positive change.
   
  I myself couldnt' live with a setup that isn't completely black.  That's a pretty basic requirement in headphone setups these days...
   
  and many of the amps I've listened to recently are completely  black. xciter/schiit/beyerdynamic..
  Quote: 





etahl said:


> It is true, the background of the T-amp is not black. You can hear it with no input. The hiss on my T-amp is quite low, lower than most tube amps and less than the floor noise of many of my CDs.
> 
> Here is a few things to try:
> 
> ...


----------



## bcg27

It should not be hard to get a 'black background' with the LCD2s since they have such a low sensitivity


----------



## athenaesword

i tried the concerto with the lcd-2 today.... somehow... i'm detecting a massive lack of details - might be because I was listening to the HD800 so much for the past week. of course, the lcd-2 still has no sibilance at all, no matter how high I cranked the volume, but I felt like I needed to turn up the volume with the LCD-2 cus it felt like there was something missing, especially in the vocals region.. kinda miss the silky smooth vocals that I'm used to. 
   
  From what I recall, I think even the Beyerdynamic A1 sounded better than the concerto with the lcd-2. maybe I went in expecting a little too much, but coming from the detail of studio monitors and the HD800, it felt like there was a huge veil in front of the music. like everything was muffled down one notch.  also, there was a distinct lack of punch in music - like I was playing Rock music, and it sounded like blues instead. everything sounded lazy; nothing was tight. electric guitar solos  sounded like jazz.
   
  so i guess you can gather from my findings so far that I'm kinda disappointed with the concerto so far (or maybe the LCD-2, since I haven't heard them for some time). 
   
  the entire rig is burnt in fully. 
   
  laptop source playing flac --> wavelength proton dac --> chord cobras --> concerto --> lcd2


----------



## LiqTenExp

Wow I am extremely happy with my LD MKVI+ (Even after a couple trips around the world to make it work).  The mids and bass are so crisp and snappy.  The Tungsol tubes in it made the difference!  5998 x4 and VT-229 BGRP
   

   
  Give me some more time to let everything settle in and I will compare it with my Mullard tubed Lyr.
   
  The rings around the tubes are bare aluminum, not gold colored, sorry for the crappy cellphone picture.


----------



## log0

Quote: 





liqtenexp said:


> Wow I am extremely happy with my LD MKVI+ (Even after a couple trips around the world to make it work).  The mids and bass are so crisp and snappy.  The Tungsol tubes in it made the difference!  5998 x4 and VT-229 BGRP
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


  Nice! Looking forward to hearing your comparison. The LD MKVI+ seems like such a great deal for a balanced tube amp, I'd like to see how it stacks up with the Lyr with Mullards. I've been long considering the MKVI+ but have held off because of some quality issues I heard about. When you say it took a couple trips around the world to make it work, I'm assuming you had to send it back to China for service. Did you have an issue with humming?


----------



## ETAHL

Quote: 





athenaesword said:


> wouldn't that mean that the hiss is still present even when stuff is playing? that means your "lively" sound is probably just distortion from the additional hiss. it sure will sound more realistic with all that extra noise, but I doubt it's a positive change.
> 
> I myself couldnt' live with a setup that isn't completely black.  That's a pretty basic requirement in headphone setups these days...
> 
> and many of the amps I've listened to recently are completely  black. xciter/schiit/beyerdynamic..


 
   
  Noise does not make a lively amp.
   
  Your statement just exclude all tube amps. There are some tube amps that is pretty close to black, many are worst than my T-amp (I can only speak for my own amp).  Xciters & Shiits don't have tubes? They are completely black?  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Live performances are out of the question too, way too much background noise.


----------



## LiqTenExp

Only humming I hear is with <32 ohm headphones.  50 ohms and up I don't hear any.
  Quote: 





log0 said:


> Nice! Looking forward to hearing your comparison. The LD MKVI+ seems like such a great deal for a balanced tube amp, I'd like to see how it stacks up with the Lyr with Mullards. I've been long considering the MKVI+ but have held off because of some quality issues I heard about. When you say it took a couple trips around the world to make it work, I'm assuming you had to send it back to China for service. Did you have an issue with humming?


----------



## LiqTenExp

I am really enjoying the LD MKVI+ so far.  I will try to avoid talking about it's tonal balance because we know that can be tweaked with tubes.  Overall it sounds bigger, wider in sound stage, and a little more life like in presentation.  The imaging on it is totally different than the Lyr and I like it.  It pushes the middle of the sound stage out a little more and things seem to wrap around your head better when transitioning from left to right.  I am running it with the balanced output of my PS Audio DLIII.
   
  Everything is just very quick/lively sounding in the lows/mids and is just very enjoyable to listen to, makes the LCD-2 sounds more like a pair of speakers than ever.
   
  It may not be worth the hassles though, it sounds great in low gain mode, 10 o'clock is a loud level for the LCD-2 but in high gain mode it has a channel balancing issue that I don't hear in the low gain mode.  The balanced out is black but the 1/4" has some low level noise on it.
   
  I am a big fan of it and it is going to be my primary at home now with the Lyr and soon to be Bifrost combo as the alternate.


----------



## sphinxvc

http://audeze.com/driver-update-and-leather-headband
   
  Quote: 





> Revision 2 transducer has the same mechanical construction as original transducer, but uses newly developed, thinner and more reliable diaphragm material. Overall sound signature remains similar. Low frequencies stay flat, but are tighter and even more extended (flat to 5 Hz), midrange is smoother and more transparent, while high frequencies are more extended, detailed and more pronounced. With Rev.2 we are addressing concerns of many customers who feel that original LCD2 has darker high frequency signature than many top of the line headphones.
> 
> While overall sonic signature remains similar, new revision provides substantial improvement in sound quality (this is no hyperbole), sound resolution and especially imaging, which is wider, more stable and 3 dimensional. If you loved the LCD-2 sonic signature, you will like the new one even more.


 
   
  So this might throw off RWA's perfectly synergistic, fine tuned, Audez'e Edition HPA?


----------



## yossi126

Quote: 





sphinxvc said:


> http://audeze.com/driver-update-and-leather-headband
> 
> 
> So this might throw off RWA's perfectly synergistic, fine tuned, Audez'e Edition HPA?


 


  Bummer.. it had to come eventually.


----------



## ninjikiran

I might actually have to go forward with this ,  I wouldnt mind pawning off my LCD-2's and paying a little bit to get a version with the new driver.


----------



## Dreaming Of A Better ... (Jun 19, 2020)

...


----------



## crowley

2 weeks after i got mine for me


----------



## zyth3x

June 9th for me :/


----------



## Dreaming Of A Better ... (Jun 19, 2020)

....


----------



## athenaesword

gonna receive a pair of these on weds! i'm excited ;p
   
  i'd expect alot of lcd2s to go on the sales forum now haha.


----------



## zyth3x

Quote: 





dreaming of a better ... said:


> you still might have the Rev 2 driver


 
   
  I have emailed Audeze with my serial and I will report back whether they are the updated version.


----------



## brasewel

Well this sucks for those that bought the LCD-2 a couple months ago like myself.


----------



## pp312

Quote: 





athenaesword said:


> gonna receive a pair of these on weds! i'm excited ;p
> 
> i'd expect alot of lcd2s to go on the sales forum now haha.


 


 Really? People must be very fickle in that case. Assuming that owners were very satisfied with their LCD-2s before (or why not have sold them already?), what reason have they to sell them now? Because the newer drivers are brighter? I thought one of the chief selling points of the LCD-2 was that it was a viable alternative to the HD800s and HE6s of this world--a HD650 on steroids, as they've been so aptly described. Are we now going for a DT880 on steroids? Frankly, that isn't at all what I paid my money for.
   
  That said, I think Audeze have made a marketing error here. If these new versions truly use revamped drivers, then they should have waited till the new headbands were ready and called this a new model, even if only an "LCD-2a". Now they've created confusion which will quickly spread to the second hand market and involve much studying of purchase dates and serial numbers. It's not the sort of hassle any of us needs.


----------



## Skylab

I agree.  A new model number would have been really helpful.  Now we will be stuck with the same "bass heavy" and "bass light" monikers that we had to deal with with the Sony R-10.  A new model number would have been much better.


----------



## TheWuss

very curious indeed.
  what with all the changes in ear pads, head band, and cabling, i find myself wanting a second pair.
  one early model, one late.


----------



## tme110

wasn't there already an earlier version, or did it still have the same driver so we're not too worried about that one?  But it looks like the grills, cable, pads, staining and....(anything else) has already been changed.
   
  I'm still waiting for my replacements so I wonder which version I'll wind up with.


----------



## Sweden

Cant wait for a comparison between the two.
  I have a really hard time with the HD800's treble who i concider sibilant.
  Hope they really don't make a HD800 treble here.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





skylab said:


> I agree.  A new model number would have been really helpful.  Now we will be stuck with the same "bass heavy" and "bass light" monikers that we had to deal with with the Sony R-10.  A new model number would have been much better.


 

 Not to mention the AKG K1000, we need to look how that worked out before rushing to sell off our bass heavy LCD-2(.0)'s.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





brasewel said:


> Well this sucks for those that bought the LCD-2 a couple months ago like myself.


 
  I hear you...


----------



## n3rdling

Treble light/treble heavy Lcd2's


----------



## Kremer930

The LCD2 was always going to be upgraded at some stage. It doesn't change the great abilities of the prior model. Just gives you an excuse for a back-up set.


----------



## ninjikiran

My idea is this, if the characteristics of the LCD-2's remain the same, and you are indeed getting more treble and deeper sub bass extension I doubt it could go bad .
   
  But now that I think about it harder it might actually be better to own both rather than sell one off.   But based on marketting lingo it could very well but the best thing since sliced bread.


----------



## kingmajix

I thought I'd chime in here for anyone potentially looking to pair the K.I.C.A.S. Caliente with the LCD-2 like me.
   
  I was able to take my rig into 32 Ohm the other day and listen (thanks guys!) and I don't think the Caliente is a great match for the LCD-2. Granted, I was listening to a "pre-production version" of the LCD-2 and it came with an ALO cable upgrade so it doesn't sound exactly like the current version LCD-2. I have no frame of reference in that regard; I listen to the Caliente with my Denon D-7000s.
   
  My impression is that the D-7000 is a much more forgiving headphone and the added bass boost of the Caliente has the effect of just adding energy and bass quantity to the music. When I was listening to the LCD-2 driven by the Caliente I felt like there was a little dark veil over the music. I was hearing amazing amounts of detail - catching things I never noticed on my Denons - but still the music didn't feel like it was all the way _there_. As I progressed through different songs and albums I noticed that some sounded absolutely fantastic and some were more veiled than others. It was then that I came to my realization. As I stated before I think the Denons are just more forgiving and whether something is recorded well or not or has lots of bass or not, it just gives it the D-7000 treatment and makes it sound lively, warm and bassy. The LCD-2 seemed very transparent and presented the music as it was. Recorded well and has lots of bass? You got it. Not? Then that's what you'll hear.
   
  Before I left I had them switch over to the Burson HA-160 for comparison. I hadn't listened to it before but I'd read great things about it and that it paired well with the LCD-2. Stepped attenuator aside (I didn't care for that) the Burson felt like it brought the music to the forefront with tons of energy and no veil. There was a little less bass than the Caliente, naturally, but it felt more accurate to me. If the song had lots of bass, the LCD-2 went low and rumbled. If it didn't, there was no exaggeration and presented the music as it was. 
   
  I have to say overall I loved what I heard out of the Burson. I am definitely a bass junkie and while the LCD-2 didn't have the raw quantity of the D-7000 the music sounded more alive than I have heard before. One thing I especially loved about the LCD-2 is how little listening fatigue there was. I felt like I could go on listening forever! Well, if they weren't so heavy   If I do end up pulling the trigger on the LCD-2s I'll have to get used to that. 
   
  So back to where I started. Have the Caliente and thinking about pairing it with the LCD-2? I'd recommend listening before you buy if you can. If you can't, just be prepared to switch your amp post-purchase as you might not love the combo.
   
  One last thing I just remembered - it seemed like the Caliente lacked some power when driving the LCD-2. Even though there was plenty of room left to go on the volume knob (I think it was at 10-11 o'clock) I thought I noticed when the drop kicked in on a dubstep song I was listening to the music took a bit of a step back. Am I crazy or does this make sense?

 Sorry for the long post!
   
  Scott


----------



## jeust0999

I was waiting for the new leather headband to purchase my LCD-2, unfortunately, the change in sound signature is both unexpected and _un_welcomed.


----------



## Windsor

I've now been listening with the LCD-2 for a few days and am really enjoying them with the very neutral-sounding Lavry DA 10 DAC/Amp. That combo makes music sound very natural to me - Thumbs up.


----------



## rattesp

Quote: 





liqtenexp said:


> I am really enjoying the LD MKVI+ so far.  I will try to avoid talking about it's tonal balance because we know that can be tweaked with tubes.  Overall it sounds bigger, wider in sound stage, and a little more life like in presentation.  The imaging on it is totally different than the Lyr and I like it.  It pushes the middle of the sound stage out a little more and things seem to wrap around your head better when transitioning from left to right.  I am running it with the balanced output of my PS Audio DLIII.
> 
> Everything is just very quick/lively sounding in the lows/mids and is just very enjoyable to listen to, makes the LCD-2 sounds more like a pair of speakers than ever.
> 
> ...


 

 My MKVI+ was in it's box, ready to be sold but after reading your post I decided to give it a try with the LCD-2 (in SE mode). Wow ! Way better than with my WA2. The bass has much more impact, instrument separation is much better. Only problem is the low level noise on SE. Didn't tried balanced since my LCD-2 are not balanced. I'm not sure I want to sell it anymore. I might instead sell the WA2 to buy a B22 and keep the MKVI+ to have the better of both worlds : SS and tubes !


----------



## log0

Quote: 





rattesp said:


> My MKVI+ was in it's box, ready to be sold but after reading your post I decided to give it a try with the LCD-2 (in SE mode). Wow ! Way better than with my WA2. The bass has much more impact, instrument separation is much better. Only problem is the low level noise on SE. Didn't tried balanced since my LCD-2 are not balanced. I'm not sure I want to sell it anymore. I might instead sell the WA2 to buy a B22 and keep the MKVI+ to have the better of both worlds : SS and tubes !


 

 Doh! I was thinking of purchasing your MKVI+. I appreciate the full disclosure in your post about the noise issue. For the amp being three months old you would have thought LD would have found a way to fix this by now.
   
  LiqTenExp: I've been wanting to hear your opinion on these three amps that I believe you've owned at some point with the LCD-2: the Leben CS300(x), the Schiit Lyr, and the Little Dot MKVI+. How do these compare, especially taking into account if you're running the MKVI+ in balanced mode? I know you've rolled some tubes (mullard ecc88?) into the Lyr and I believe you mentioned you preferred the sound more than the Leben?
   
  Thanks for your posts.


----------



## Wedge

I can tell you LiqTenExp doesn't like the Leben as a headphone amp, he also never owned it, he was listening to my headphone amps, but we work together and are friends so he can listen to it whenever he feels like coming over.


----------



## log0

Quote: 





wedge said:


> I can tell you LiqTenExp doesn't like the Leben as a headphone amp, he also never owned it, he was listening to my headphone amps, but we work together and are friends so he can listen to it whenever he feels like coming over.


 

 Ahh ok, it's good to have friends with amps 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  How about you, what's your take? Have you been able to compare these amps?


----------



## LiqTenExp

Yeah,
   
  I always thought the Leben sounded great with speakers but I preferred Wedge's P/V or my Lyr for headphones.  I always thought the mids were off (have to listen to it again to explain) on the Leben and sounded too tubey.  I don't feel the MKVI+ sounds too tubey at all.
   
  Wedge and I will have to sit down soon with the LD MKVI+ and compare it to my Lyr and his P/V, Leben, and WA-5.


----------



## Wedge

I don't think the Leben is too "tubey".  I like the Leben a lot, for both speaker and headphone, but it certainly not meant for folks who listen to their music loud.


----------



## log0

Quote: 





wedge said:


> I don't think the Leben is too "tubey".  I like the Leben a lot, for both speaker and headphone, but it certainly not meant for folks who listen to their music loud.


 


  I'd love to give the Leben a try. At around $3k for the CS300 I don't think I can justify that unless it would be used for speakers as well, which makes me want to jump up to the CS600 for around $5k for the extra power. Even then, I don't know if the 25watts will satisfy a full range speaker for all types of music.


----------



## sphinxvc

I've heard the Leben distorts at high volumes w/ HPs.  IMO, that would be unacceptable at $3K.  Any truth to this?


----------



## ianmedium

I wonder how all these amp recommendations will be affected by the revised drivers?


----------



## winzzz

whats with loud vol and leben wedge ?
  Quote: 





wedge said:


> I don't think the Leben is too "tubey".  I like the Leben a lot, for both speaker and headphone, but it certainly not meant for folks who listen to their music loud.


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





sphinxvc said:


> I've heard the Leben distorts at high volumes w/ HPs.  IMO, that would be unacceptable at $3K.  Any truth to this?


 

 Not with any headphone I have tried it with except for the HE-6, which makes many amps do this.  With all my other headphones, including the LCD-2, your ears would bleed long before the Leben would distort.


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





sphinxvc said:


> I've heard the Leben distorts at high volumes w/ HPs.  IMO, that would be unacceptable at $3K.  Any truth to this?


 

 Yes. With the LCD-2 it started distorting after 11pm.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





brasewel said:


> Yes. With the LCD-2 it started distorting after 11pm.


 
  Then don't listen after 11pm.


----------



## Skylab

I can get to 100dB + peaks on the LCD-2 using the Leben with no distortion.  If you listen louder than that you will be deaf soon anyway


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> Then don't listen after 11pm.


 

 It definitely wasn't 100db at 11pm. I'm not sure if this was due to how Wedge set up his Leben but it was too soft for me.


----------



## sphinxvc

Maybe a source voltage issue?


----------



## log0

Hey Skylab,
  How does your Pioneer compare to your other amps? I see that you prefer it over the Meier, but do you prefer it over any of your top tube choices? I imagine it must sound quite different. I too have been considering buying a vintage Pioneer receiver and having it restored (or buying a restored one). If the headphone output sounds great and you have 100+ watts to drive full range speakers that's the best of both worlds.


----------



## Skylab

I like the vintage receivers I have a lot with the LCD-2. I use the Pioneer SX-1980 and the Sansui 9090DB with the LCD-2 quite often. I slightly prefer the Leben, Decware, and Trafomatic tube amps though. As you said, different presentations. The Leben is a little smoother and warmer than the big receivers, but the big receivers do have a slightly more dynamic presentation.

I mostly use the big Pioneer with speakers, where it is really quite astonishingly good given it is a 30 year old solid state receiver. That was truly the golden age of the high-power receiver.


----------



## RedBull

Quite strange as I can only listen LCD-2 on my Leben max at 10am, and that only for 5 mins, I tell you it's very loud.
  My normal listening volume is 8.30 to 9.00.
   
  Maybe mine is the older version of Leben?  I heard Leben change their design on their 'newer' version to give more volume travel to more variety of headphones?


----------



## RedBull

May I ask a slightly off topic question, cos I don't think I should create a new thread for "Power cable recommendation for LCD-2" 
   
  Placebo aside, I just ask to you guys cable believer, anyone use Furutech G-320Ag-18? or Audio-gd power cable or Shunyata Venom 3 What do you think?
   
  Right now I borrow my friend's Audio-gd and Chord from my friend, they have different presentation.  Audio-gd has more wider, deeper soundstage, leaner, more 'hollow' midrange, more 3D, but very slightly more grainy than the Chord; Chord has smaller soundstage, flatter (2D), but smoother and has more body on vocal, instruments and midrange.  I prefer the Chord though, my preference.  Now I thought the highly praised entry level Furutech might be better than the Chord.  Your expert experience is highly appreciated.  I don't want to spend 1 grand for cable, but as long as it's decent it's fine.


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





sphinxvc said:


> Maybe a source voltage issue?


 

 We were using the Havana that I have.


----------



## Wedge

Quote: 





brasewel said:


> It definitely wasn't 100db at 11pm. I'm not sure if this was due to how Wedge set up his Leben but it was too soft for me.


 
   
  100 dB and 100 dB peaks are 2 different things.  Skylab from what I can tell based on some very coarse measurement listen to music around the same volume or a little lower than I do.  You definitely listen WAY louder than I do, and LiqTenExp listens louder even still.  So it is quite feasible you are listen to volumes that peak at or higher than 100 dB, as music can be quite dynamic and swing many dBs.  It may not seem loud but it definitely is, just my opinion.  For reference I think I do the majority of my listening between 9:00 and 1 notch above, which correlates approximately ~82-84 dB peaks by my make shift measurement.


----------



## kwkarth

The obvious conclusion to all of this then, is no late night listening to the Leben.  The electrons must move more slowly late at night.


----------



## Wedge

Quote: 





log0 said:


> I'd love to give the Leben a try. At around $3k for the CS300 I don't think I can justify that unless it would be used for speakers as well, which makes me want to jump up to the CS600 for around $5k for the extra power. Even then, I don't know if the 25watts will satisfy a full range speaker for all types of music.


 

 Depends on the sensitivity of your speakers, not so much the size.  Zu Audios work good with less.


----------



## Wedge

Like I said it doesn't bother me, I don't listen at 11PM or higher, personally we keep using the term loud but how do I know what your high volume as opposed to what I consider high volume.  The short answer since you know Brasewel, if you listen at the same volumes as he does, than the Leben is not for you, at least for headphones.
  
  Quote: 





sphinxvc said:


> I've heard the Leben distorts at high volumes w/ HPs.  IMO, that would be unacceptable at $3K.  Any truth to this?


----------



## LiqTenExp

I don't remember having it above 11.  That 10-11 o'clock range I think was good for me. 
   
  I do remember it failing hard with my 600 ohm Beyers though.  They were much harder to drive.


----------



## brasewel

It didn't have any volume until 10 with the HE-6


----------



## Wedge

Brasewel's comment was beyond 11 the Leben will distort with the LCD-2.  I would agree, but I listen at 9 or 1 notch above, so I don't really care.  I think that night you guys were going 11 maybe even 12, with headphones at that volume it will distort, and it is IMO damn loud.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





wedge said:


> Brasewel's comment was beyond 11 the Leben will distort with the LCD-2.  I would agree, but I listen at 9 or 1 notch above, so I don't really care.  I think that night you guys were going 11 maybe even 12, with headphones at that volume it will distort, and it is IMO damn loud.


 
  sounds like you need to pick a more appropriate xfrmr tap on the output to better match the load.


----------



## Wedge

No choice of Trafo tap on the headphone output.


----------



## fomoz

i've been reading this thread, but maybe someone can help me narrow down my search a bit.

i'm looking to get an amp to drive both my Ed. 8 and the LCD-2 in the future, so i would like it to have a low gain and a high gain setting. it would be great if it had a high-quality DAC too, as well as outputs so that i can use it as a pre-amp later. 

the Burson HA-160D looks like an attractive choice, but according to reviews the DAC is not worth the extra price over the HA-160. The HA-160 is very attractive for the price and reviews, but doesn't have pre-outs.

the Lyr has been reported blowing drivers on the Ed. 8 if it's turned on while they're plugged in, so it's out.

i'm looking for a single-ended output only.

DAC wise i would like to use my X-Fi Titanium HD for now, possibly getting a $349 Schiit Bifrost depending on reviews.

the budget for the amp is flexible, but lets try to keep it under $1000. i would like something with good value for the money.

thanks!


----------



## sphinxvc

Quote:


wedge said:


> Like I said it doesn't bother me, I don't listen at 11PM or higher, personally we keep using the term loud but how do I know what your high volume as opposed to what I consider high volume.


 

 True indeed.  I'm a low volume listener compared to Brasewel.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





wedge said:


> No choice of Trafo tap on the headphone output.


 
   
  Here's another option:

  http://www.rothwellaudioproducts.co.uk/html/attenuators.html


----------



## Wedge

Again its really all preference, I don't think it needs attenuators.  I listen to my music at pretty low volumes, I personally don't see it as a trouble, for others it will be.  In any event, for lower volume listeners with volume peaks at 80-85 dBA this amp is a really good amp, for those who listen louder, I can't say but I would imagine that the Leben is not really for you as some of your dynamic passages may distort.
   
  Really though, the amp isn't for everyone, Skylab happens to like it a lot, so do I.  Its kind of just like the fact that the Lyr is not for everyone. Or the P/V is not for everyone.  My Woo is also not for everyone, I remember a lot of folks at NYC meet saying how unimpressive the WA-5 with the LCD-2 is, when I use the K1K port I really thought it works nice, no music it is a little noisier than I like, but its got some juice behind it and its a tube amp.
   
  Brasewel has a sweet amp, personally just me though if I had to choose I would pick my P/V over the RSA Apache, because while I think drum sets sound better on the Apache, by a little bit, the P/V sounds a little bit better with pianos, which I prefer.  That said the differences are so minor.  As an overall I like the Leben a bit better than P/V as it is a more musical amp than the P/V again only by a little, the Leben has its limitations but for almost all of my listening and most of my cans it is about as it gets for me.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





wedge said:


> Again its really all preference, I don't think it needs attenuators.  I listen to my music at pretty low volumes, I personally don't see it as a trouble, for others it will be.  In any event, for lower volume listeners with volume peaks at 80-85 dBA this amp is a really good amp, for those who listen louder, I can't say but I would imagine that the Leben is not really for you as some of your dynamic passages may distort.
> 
> Really though, the amp isn't for everyone, Skylab happens to like it a lot, so do I.  Its kind of just like the fact that the Lyr is not for everyone. Or the P/V is not for everyone.  My Woo is also not for everyone, I remember a lot of folks at NYC meet saying how unimpressive the WA-5 with the LCD-2 is, when I use the K1K port I really thought it works nice, no music it is a little noisier than I like, but its got some juice behind it and its a tube amp.
> 
> Brasewel has a sweet amp, personally just me though if I had to choose I would pick my P/V over the RSA Apache, because while I think drum sets sound better on the Apache, by a little bit, the P/V sounds a little bit better with pianos, which I prefer.  That said the differences are so minor.  As an overall I like the Leben a bit better than P/V as it is a more musical amp than the P/V again only by a little, the Leben has its limitations but for almost all of my listening and most of my cans it is about as it gets for me.


 

 Wedge aren't you breaking in a pair of 800's?


----------



## Wedge

Yes.  I am.


----------



## LiqTenExp

Just an FYI for the people with LD MKIII and maybe looking at LCD-2....
   
  I figured I haven't really seen it come up in this thread and I happened to be going back and forth on another pair of headphones between the Lyr and MKIII that I should swap over to the LCD-2.
   
  Lyr is IEC Mullard tubed, MKIII is RCA NOS and Sovtek.  MKIII has enough power for the LCD-2 even though its OTL and aimed at higher impedance phones.  The LD held its own in that respect but couldn't control (they weren't as precise/tight/defined) the mid-bass and bass frequencies as well as the Lyr.   I would definitely prefer it over some of the other stuff in it's sub 200 dollar price range. 
   
  Otherwise it sounded fine...nothing distracting or unpleasing about it in the mids and highs.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





wedge said:


> Yes.  I am.


 


  Let me know when you post your thoughts in the appropriate forum, i'm very curious to hear your contrast to the LCD-2.


----------



## jax




----------



## KevinWolff

On the Peak/Volcano??
  
  Quote: 





wedge said:


> Yes.  I am.


----------



## Wedge

Quote: 





kevinwolff said:


> On the Peak/Volcano??


 

  Yes, as well as my others.


----------



## sling5s

I have a pair of LCD-2 on it's way.  I currently use my Mad Ear HD with Grado RS1, but what tubes would provide the extra gain and treble extension for the LCD-2?
  Also, has anyone tried the LCD-2 out with Grado RA-1?  
   
  thanks


----------



## KevinWolff

Cool. Glad to know they pair well. I'm loving the peak/volcano
  
  Quote: 





wedge said:


> Yes, as well as my others.


----------



## brasewel

The flagship headphones generally pair well with most amps but synergize best through certain combos


----------



## WarriorAnt

[size=medium]Here is my long delayed impressions of the V200.   The V200 seems to be a very well balanced amp in every aspect of its sonic presentation.  By this I mean its frequency presentation seems to be equally consistent throughout the entire spectrum from the very low bass all the way throughout the upper treble. This consistency  gives the V200 a very smooth, even and natural tonal balance.  This well balanced tonal character gives the amp a smooth, almost liquid sense, a somewhat silky feel. Never is there a hint of artificial or electronic reproduction taking place. When I say silkiness and smoothness I do not mean to infer a lack of detail or leading edge blurriness but quite the contrary, there is plenty of inner detail and resolution.  
   
There is also an overall warmth to this amp but not too much, not overly present or in any way intrusive.  This warmth does not seem to be a manifestation of any undue or excess mid bass emphasis, its just there in the presentation in a beneficial way rather than detracting and does not obscure the the amps detail or compromise definition.  Personally I find this warmth pleasant, inviting and gratifying.
   
The V200 is at once dynamic and laid back. It delivers the dynamic emphasis required to give instruments the weight and impact needed for palpable realism and it does so without seeming to break a sweat. Dynamics are never constrained nor is there ever any sense of congestion.  There is explosive dynamics when called for and yet fine inner detail and micro dynamics are not sacrificed at the expense of muscle.  Its ability to deliver whatever power is needed is done in an effortless manner, never any sense that the V200 is straining to get the job done. If an amp could have a demeanor then for the V200 it would be confidence.
   
The V200 has the ability to unravel a complex sonic landscape with ease and confidence. Musical lines and rhythms are kept straight and coherent. Nothing is sonically tripping over itself or obscuring the detail of another instrument. Even in the most complex passages you can distinctly hear every instrument in detail.  This is the consequence of the V200's ability to resolve and present the smallest amounts of inner detail and micro dynamics.  Instruments are clearly defined and focused and separated across the soundstage.  
   
Bass extension is deep and controlled with excellent definition, impact and tonality.  Treble is extended and smooth without any sense of edginess or harshness. The slight overall warmth to the V200 gives the midrange the seduction needed to draw you into the music and get you involved. 
   
Listening to the V200 I never once thought I was listening to an amplifier. It is not an in your face kind of amplifier. It seems so well balanced in so many regards that it doesn't need to have any particular overbearing characteristics to give it its overall magic.  It simply does its job in every area with confidence and respect and disappears from the sonic equation in an effortless way.
   
Smooth and effortless are the words I kept mouthing when listening to the V200.
   
Let me just conclude that I do not know how valid my observations are. This is my first headphone rig and the LCD-2's are my first set of cans ever.  I have never heard another headphone amp so I have nothing to compare it to past or present. I have had big speaker rigs for 30 years.  
   
My current headphone rig is the Wyred4Sound DAC-2 > balanced out/balanced into> V200> LCD-2.  
   
   ​[/size]


----------



## brasewel

Nice review warrior.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





brasewel said:


> Nice review warrior.


 


  I'll add some impressions of the V200 with different songs as soon as the FedEx guy gets serious and delivers my LCD's, hopefully tomorrow.


----------



## brasewel

I've always wanted to listen to the Wyred Dac2. I wonder how it compares to my DAC. Do you find your setup too solid-statish?


----------



## WobblyGoblin

Quote: 





liqtenexp said:


> Just an FYI for the people with LD MKIII and maybe looking at LCD-2....
> 
> I figured I haven't really seen it come up in this thread and I happened to be going back and forth on another pair of headphones between the Lyr and MKIII that I should swap over to the LCD-2.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Thanks for that. Useful as I'd been looking at Littledots before looking at the Lyr+LCD-2.


----------



## WarriorAnt

I don't sense any solid statish sound in my rig.   When I had Krell amps I could say that the overly abundant type of jewel like detail it provided could be taken for solid statishness in its most refined definition. But I get none of that in my headphone rig.  the LCD-2 r.1 is smooth, the V200 is smooth and not solid statish in any way.  This leaves the DAC-2   to me it is a very good digital source though it does seem to take a great many hours to burn in.   First off it has very deep bass extension. the bass it tight, controlled and has lots of impact.  I think its pretty smooth from top to bottom and the upper frequency extension is very impressive. no harshness or digital artifacts in sound of any kind for me.  I think its pretty neutral overall.  It has an excellent soundstage that is very dimensional, instrument separation is excellent. and its detail retrieval seems endless.   It is not cold or analytical because it retrieves so much detail because it is not artificial detail.  The detail is not manufactured just plumped and passed on with accuracy.  For me it is exactly how the source component in any chain should start out. The DAC-2 has an excellent analog output stage.  If there were ever any component I might change out in my rig it would never be the DAC-2

 Maybe there are some other DAC-2 owners who visit this thread that can comment on my DAC-2 findings good or bad.


----------



## jax

Great review, WA.  You've pretty much described the sonic attributes of the V181 in balanced with LCD-2's as well.  I'd be curious to hear the two side by side with LCD-2's to see what, if any, difference there might be. 
   
  I know exactly what you mean about that harder-edge, crystaline kind of presentation one might expect from classic SS amplification.  I had a Rockhopper B22 for a while - a three board.  It was a very good amp, but I felt it erred on the side of what you describe as the classic SS signature.  I never had it with LCD-2's though, so could not comment as to that combination.  I was using it with HD800's at the time. 
   
  Look forward to hearing your impressions of your new headphones once they arrive. 
  
  Quote: 





warriorant said:


> I don't sense any solid statish sound in my rig.   When I had Krell amps I could say that the overly abundant type of jewel like detail it provided could be taken for solid statishness in its most refined definition. But I get none of that in my headphone rig.  the LCD-2 r.1 is smooth, the V200 is smooth and not solid statish in any way.  This leaves the DAC-2   to me it is a very good digital source though it does seem to take a great many hours to burn in.   First off it has very deep bass extension. the bass it tight, controlled and has lots of impact.  I think its pretty smooth from top to bottom and the upper frequency extension is very impressive. no harshness or digital artifacts in sound of any kind for me.  I think its pretty neutral overall.  It has an excellent soundstage that is very dimensional, instrument separation is excellent. and its detail retrieval seems endless.   It os not cold or analytical because it retrieves so much detail because it is not artificial detail.  The detail is not manufactured just plumped and passed on with accuracy.  For me it is exactly how the source component in any chain should start out.  If there were ever any component I might change out in my rig it would never be the DAC-2
> 
> Maybe there are some other DAC-2 owners who visit this thread that can comment on my DAC-2 findings good or bad.


----------



## sphinxvc

Quote:


warriorant said:


> [size=medium] Let me just conclude that I do not know how valid my observations are. This is my first headphone rig and the LCD-2's are my first set of cans ever.  I have never heard another headphone amp so I have nothing to compare it to past or present. I have had big speaker rigs for 30 years.  [/size]
> [size=medium]  [/size]​


 

 You forgot to add all your years of professional experience.  Nice review WA.


----------



## sphinxvc

Quote:


jax said:


> I know exactly what you mean about that harder-edge, crystaline kind of presentation one might expect from classic SS amplification.  I had a Rockhopper B22 for a while - a three board.  It was a very good amp, but I felt it erred on the side of what you describe as the classic SS signature.  I never had it with LCD-2's though, so could not comment as to that combination.  *I was using it with HD800's at the time. *


 

 Aw, now that's kinda unfair, don't you think?


----------



## Francoy

Sorry to bump myself, but I promise I’ll do it just once :¬}
   
  Has anyone listened to a Miniwatt/LCD-2 combo (has Alo seem to think it is decent enough to bundle together)?
  
  Quote: 





francoy said:


> I’ve noticed that Alo audio seem to be big on the Miniwatt/LCD-2 pairing. And I don’t find much info on that particular combo in comparison with other matches for the LCD-2. I mean, if the Miniwatt is any good, it would be a great budget tube solution that many people seem to be looking for around here. (just seems odd to pair a $1K can with a $350 tube amp).
> 
> Any thoughts from people with experience with that combo?


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





jax said:


> Great review, WA.  You've pretty much described the sonic attributes of the V181 in balanced with LCD-2's as well.  I'd be curious to hear the two side by side with LCD-2's to see what, if any, difference there might be.
> 
> I know exactly what you mean about that harder-edge, crystaline kind of presentation one might expect from classic SS amplification.  I had a Rockhopper B22 for a while - a three board.  It was a very good amp, but I felt it erred on the side of what you describe as the classic SS signature.  I never had it with LCD-2's though, so could not comment as to that combination.  I was using it with HD800's at the time.


 

  The Krells never had a hard edge to them but they were detailed in a fast supernatural way.  I don't know if anyone has ever heard a Goldmund solid state amp or a Rowland solid state amp but those amps are excellent solid state amps and the V200 reminds me of them.


----------



## WarriorAnt

BTW there is a used V181 in the FS forum going for $500.  That is a steal!


----------



## elnero

nvm


----------



## adydula

Hello,
   
  My LCD2's are a week old now, about 20hours listening and they are marvelous....I was using several sources, a Schitt Asgard, a DIY SOHAii (tube) and a Insight + Preamp by Van Alstine. All three do well to drive the LCD2's....but as many I seem to like some more than others...the preamp section in the AVA Van Alstine Ibsight+ sounds very good and the SOHA ii tube amp sounds a bit more 'warm'...sometimes I prefer one over the other, the ASGARD was very godd, very analytical, accurate, neutral but for some reason it just did not make me feel it made things a whole lot better that the other two.So I sold it and along with a pair of 702's want to use the funds to get a better 'amp'.
   
  I use a laptop, flacs to HRT Music Streamer ii to the peamp and tape outs to the head amps.
   
  I have these on the list...but have no way to really listen to any of them:
   
  1. Schitt Lyr
  2. HA160
  3.Meir Concerto
   
  I have read hundreds of posts on many sites and all the reviews...
   
  So now I am looking for the 'truth'....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Ideas, opinions, facts??
   
  this is a "CRAZY" hobby!!
   
  All the best
  Alex


----------



## zyth3x

Quote: 





adydula said:


> 3.Meir Concerto


 

 I am using the Concerto with the LCD-2's at the moment and was also looking at trying a new amp. Unfortunately it's the only amp I have so I can't share any comparisons.
   
  I was considering the following;
   
  Lyr
 Peak/Volcano
 Woo WA22 or WA6SE
 Violectric V200


----------



## adydula

Hello, I see there are a few Meier for sale on the used forum....your using one how does it sound to you ...if your looking at the other amps you listed I guess like me and many others we want to see if there is better out there and so the quest begins!!
   
  Alex


----------



## zyth3x

Like I said, nothing to compare it to. It sounds good but that doesn't mean much.


----------



## MacedonianHero

adydula said:


> Hello, I see there are a few Meier for sale on the used forum....your using one how does it sound to you ...if your looking at the other amps you listed I guess like me and many others we want to see if there is better out there and so the quest begins!!
> 
> Alex




Now I am selling my Concerto...but in all honesty, it is a great match with the LCD-2s. For under $500, the Concerto or Lyr are hard to beat!


----------



## zyth3x

Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> Now I am selling my Concerto...but in all honesty, it is a great match with the LCD-2s. For under $500, the Concerto or Lyr are hard to beat!


 
   
   
  What's the difference between a Lyr and something quadruple its price? My problem is that I can't audition any of these amps so it gets frustrating trying to base a decision on opinions and snippets of information from users and reviews.
   
  From my reading, your favourite amp for orthos is the Lyr, but is there any other amp you've heard that you prefer specifically with the LCD-2's? I don't mind spending $2000 for something that will give me a noticeable and real jump but I would like to be sure that the jump up is indeed definite.


----------



## MacedonianHero

zyth3x said:


> What's the difference between a Lyr and something quadruple its price? My problem is that I can't audition any of these amps so it gets frustrating trying to base a decision on opinions and snippets of information from users and reviews.
> 
> From my reading, your favourite amp for orthos is the Lyr, but is there any other amp you've heard that you prefer specifically with the LCD-2's? I don't mind spending $2000 for something that will give me a noticeable and real jump but I would like to be sure that the jump up is indeed definite.




Actually, now I slightly prefer my WA22 (with the 7236 power tubes). The differences are far from huge between all three amps, just subtleties really. Like slightly better SS, treble response, bass control, etc.... 

Now the price range is much larger.... $549 (Lyr with upgraded tubes to $720 Concerto (brand new) to $2200 for my WA22 (with upgraded tubes). But that's audio I guess...never a linear correlation between price and sound quality improvement.


----------



## grokit

This one looks pretty cool for $500, has anyone tried the GCHA with the LCD-2?
   
  http://www.musicdirect.com/p-7416-ps-audio-gcha-headphone-amp.aspx


----------



## MacedonianHero

grokit said:


> This one looks pretty cool for $500, has anyone tried the GCHA with the LCD-2?
> 
> http://www.musicdirect.com/p-7416-ps-audio-gcha-headphone-amp.aspx




Frank I did and wasn't overly impressed. At the time, he much preferred the Concerto as a SS option for the LCD-2s. You might want to shoot him a PM.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> Frank I did and wasn't overly impressed. At the time, he much preferred the Concerto as a SS option for the LCD-2s. You might want to shoot him a PM.


 

 Hmm, it's not for me, I just thought it might be an alternative to the HA160. Someone in the PS1000 thread said it sounded good if you use a $3,500 power cable lol.


----------



## MacedonianHero

grokit said:


> Hmm, it's not for me, I just thought it might be an alternative to the HA160. Someone in the PS1000 thread said it* sounded good if you use a $3,500 power cable* lol.




LoL, I'm sure a $3500 power cable made the whole difference.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





grokit said:


> Hmm, it's not for me, I just thought it might be an alternative to the HA160. Someone in the PS1000 thread said it sounded good if you use a $3,500 power cable lol.


 

 Talk about the Placebo Effect!


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





francoy said:


> Sorry to bump myself, but I promise I’ll do it just once :¬}
> 
> Has anyone listened to a Miniwatt/LCD-2 combo (has Alo seem to think it is decent enough to bundle together)?


 

 Yes, I have spent a fair amount of time listening to the LCD-2s driven by a Mini-Watt.  The combo is wonderful, but...  noise level is evident, LF and HF extension is lacking on both ends of the spectrum compared to a number of other amps.  It's a great amp because it delivers 3+ watts into a speaker load, it's all tube amplification with a solid state rectifier, and it sounds great with near field speakers like the John Blue, etc.  It's a good starter amp with great versatility.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> LoL, I'm sure a $3500 power cable made the whole difference.


 

 It would be the most expensive component I own:
   


*The World's Best Power Cable Upgrade!*


----------



## MrQ

And I thought I was crazy getting the ALO silver/copper for my LCD-2


----------



## KevinWolff

Looks a like a boa constrictor. I wonder if it runs on mice.
  
  Quote: 





grokit said:


> It would be the most expensive component I own:
> 
> 
> 
> *The World's Best Power Cable Upgrade!*


----------



## Windsor

Quote: 





kevinwolff said:


> Looks a like a boa constrictor. I wonder if it runs on mice.


 
   
  Or hamsters (see Audez'e LCD-2 Orthos thread for more on that)


----------



## KevinWolff

Oh my godz. The lcd-2 thread has gone viral! Excellent!
  
  Quote: 





windsor said:


> Or hamsters (see Audez'e LCD-2 Orthos thread for more on that)


----------



## Equus

Viral LCD-2 hamsters.  Scary.
   
  A little more on topic, the Liquid Fire is, unsurprisingly, sounding really good with the LCD-2 so far.  It will probably just get better as the amp settles in and the DAC gets a little more time on it too.  Then we tube roll.  Bwahahaha!


----------



## BournePerfect

For the Fiio crowd (and ortho owners with speaker tabs): http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004FSXON8/ref=s9_simh_gw_p23_d1_i6?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-5&pf_rd_r=0GWZBBCRBYH9SH2HS88P&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470939291&pf_rd_i=507846
   
  -Daniel


----------



## dagothur

Quote: 





kevinwolff said:


> Looks a like a boa constrictor. I wonder if it runs on mice.


 

 It runs on snake oil and the tears of the orphans you could have fed with the money you used to buy it.


----------



## KevinWolff

Ok, then. As long as it's not mice.....add to cart  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  Quote: 





dagothur said:


> It runs on snake oil and the tears of the orphans you could have fed with the money you used to buy it.


----------



## KingStyles

Congrats on your amp equus. Look forward to your impressions vs your stacker.


----------



## TruBrew

I am sorry, but why do people call class D amps Digital, They aren't. It may have a digital control circuit, but every time a product is labeled like that it only propagates bad information. I feel like any amp company should know that, but maybe they do it on purpose because Digital is a buzz word. It is like throwing HD at the end of everything. 
   
  Sorry, that is off topic. It may make a nice budget amp for orthos. I could only see using it with Fostex's or for a second or third room. I could not see many people only spending $100 on a main amp for headphones costing near $1000.
  
  Quote: 





bourneperfect said:


> For the Fiio crowd (and ortho owners with speaker tabs): http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004FSXON8/ref=s9_simh_gw_p23_d1_i6?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-5&pf_rd_r=0GWZBBCRBYH9SH2HS88P&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470939291&pf_rd_i=507846
> 
> -Daniel


----------



## Equus

Quote: 





kingstyles said:


> Congrats on your amp equus. Look forward to your impressions vs your stacker.


 


  Thanks man.  We'll have to at least do a mini meet sometime after I get some time with it and get a good set of tubes settled in.  So far, as expected, detail and clarity on the LF blow the Stacker away.  Bass extension on the LF is sweet as heck, as well.  More impressions to follow after the LF burns in more and I get more ear time.


----------



## grokit

Because they use op-amps? Probably not


----------



## ETAHL

Quote: 





trubrew said:


> I am sorry, but why do people call class D amps Digital, They aren't. It may have a digital control circuit, but every time a product is labeled like that it only propagates bad information. I feel like any amp company should know that, but maybe they do it on purpose because Digital is a buzz word. It is like throwing HD at the end of everything.
> 
> Sorry, that is off topic. It may make a nice budget amp for orthos. I could only see using it with Fostex's or for a second or third room. I could not see many people only spending $100 on a main amp for headphones costing near $1000.


 

 Class D amps are digital. They are basically input analog signal modulating the on/off of their power supply (the digital part) and gets shaped into a larger signal at the end by passive filters and the load.
   
  I have more expensive amps and heard a few high price amps. I prefer the sound of my digital/T-amp with the LCD-2.
  $1000 LCD-2 + $100 T-amp has sound quality that far excess any $100 headphone + any $1000 amp.


----------



## Wedge

PWM doesn't mean Digital.


----------



## ETAHL

Quote: 





wedge said:


> PWM doesn't mean Digital.


 
   
  Lets call them PWM amps.


----------



## TruBrew

Well you may very well be right on the quality to price aspect. I have never heard one, so I have no room to bash. I have heard good things about T-amps with the LCD-2, which aren't a real amp designation, but just Tripath's Class-D. It is similar to how ICE amps give themselves a special name I suppose. I will support calling them PWM amps.
  Quote: 





etahl said:


> Class D amps are digital. They are basically input analog signal modulating the on/off of their power supply (the digital part) and gets shaped into a larger signal at the end by passive filters and the load.
> 
> I have more expensive amps and heard a few high price amps. I prefer the sound of my digital/T-amp with the LCD-2.
> $1000 LCD-2 + $100 T-amp has sound quality that far excess any $100 headphone + any $1000 amp.


----------



## MayaTlab

Hello,
   
  I'm going to get a rather large cash inflow in the next months and interested in buying a good home system. I'm interested in Stax headphones and orthos as well.
   
  I've already auditionned most Stax headphones and amp. I feel they're already very good with classical, so I'd try to "balance" their characteristics to make them better with rock, electronica, etc. (as I listen to all kinds of genres).
   
  In the same way, I've heard reports that the LCD-2 is very well voiced for popular music but lacking for classical music. I assume the added clarity of the new Rev.2 driver is a step in the right way, but which amp do you think would turn the LCD-2 into something competitive with the Stax for classical music ? 
   
  Budget would be between $500 and $1000 roughly. But please feel free to suggest anything. I'm particularly looking for not-overly demonstrative sound, precision, control, soundstage accuracy (imaging with good image center and depth is more important to me than sheer size), instrument separation, harmonic rendition, low level details, timber accuracy, low level dynamics. And neither too bright nor too warm. Sound should be quite fleshier with good body, but without feeling boomy.
   
  Source will be for now a HM 801 from the SD card (not from USB) + good interconnect. Later on I might add a better one (though from my experience I'd have to spend over $1000 to clearly better the Hifiman).
   
  I'm quite skeptical about the Lyr (the "too good to be true" syndrom) and I'm not sure it is refined enough for classical music. I also heard the the V200 is slightly darker than other SS amps in the same price bracket - not sure that's what I'm looking for. The Concerto was reported as thin sounding. The Burson seems from reports a slightly better choice, but seems voiced primarily for rock. But for all these amps, I'm afraid about their ability to convey low-level details and instrument separation quite well (in the same way, or at least a "getting close" way that, let's say, a Stax 507 + Woo Audio woudl convey them). The Apex Peak + Volcano is supposedly very revealing and musical at the same time - but quite frankly outside my budget (to the point where I'd start considering other headphone solutions). The Apex Peak only could be a solution - but I don't know if the Peak only is a good amp when compared to a Burson for instance. Finally, I'm quite skeptical about the B22 - its sonic abilities seem to vary quite a lot depending on the build and I'm not ready to go DIY for now. I'm also afraid that it's going to sound a little too technical. Maybe the Apex Arete ?
   
  Thanks for your help !


----------



## grokit

Yeah go for the Arete, like with the Peak you could grab the Volcano later.


----------



## TruBrew

Just to clarify, the $500-$1000 if for just the amp correct. I ask because you Have yet to purchase the LCD-2. The only thing I have heard in that price range is the Lyr. I thought it did a good job. I liked it, but I can not say I was ever in love with it. It didn't make me feel like I was done looking. Before you start looking for an amp for the LCD-2, are you sure these are the headphones you want. I ask because you talk about liking the 507's. I own a pair, and I must say, I think they are excruciatingly bright. Seriously, I have to EQ it down 10db in the 10-12k range. I am only keeping them because they are silly comfortable and work great with the Smyth Realiser. 
   
  My point only is, if you are interested in orthos, but want a little big brighter of a sound, why not consider the HE-6 more heavily. Maybe you have, this is the LCD-2 amp thread after all.
   
  If you do plan to buy the LCD-2, it looks like you have already done your research. You listed a number of popular amps for them. For the low end of the price scale T-Amps get mentioned from time to time. I think the virtue two.2 may be the most often recommended T-Amp. on the high end of your range. It breaks your listed budget, but I think comes in around the same price as the Apex Peak without Volcano is the decware mini torii. I have heard neither, and will therefor not personally suggest either. I do however think they may be worthy your time researching. 
   
  I can highly recommend the Leben CS300XS, but there is no way to fit that into your budget. Even buying the lower model 300 from price japan would be around the same as the Apex P/V I believe. 
  Quote: 





mayatlab said:


> Hello,
> 
> I'm going to get a rather large cash inflow in the next months and interested in buying a good home system. I'm interested in Stax headphones and orthos as well.
> 
> ...


----------



## n3rdling

No amp is going to transform the LCD2 from being 'bad' at classical to 'good' at classical, if you infact feel the LCD2 is 'bad' at classical (or any other genre).  I've heard the LCD2 on everything from a Sansa Clip to some of the very best headphone amps there are, and the change isn't going to be significant enough to suddenly go from bad to good with any genre.  This is really for any headphone though.  Also, you may consider the LCD2 good with classical...that critique has been mentioned by a few people (myself included, at least for symphonic works) but not everybody agrees on the matter.  For your price range you should be able to get a 2 channel B22 which should max out the LCD2's abilities, or at least come very close.


----------



## MayaTlab

Thanks.
   
  Yes, I like the 507, but not with most Stax amps. I've tried them with the 600LE which darkens their signature and make them much more organic IMHO. I'm looking for trying them out of the WA GES (which should be the fleshiest performer in this price range according to reviews).
  I'll probably be able to hear the LCD-2 Rev.1 in September, but I've already started researching as you see .
  Ive considered the Hifiman, but as someone said, that is the LCD-2 thread. I'm just trying to determine which amp pairs well with the LCD-2 to make them rather good with classical music. Anyway, I guess the HE-6 would perform best within my total budget out of the unreleased and still unpriced EF6.
   
  Budget is 500-1000 for the amp only. Total budget is obviously higher but flexible (still reasonable, no fancy $3000 IC). As an example, the 507 + Woo GES + decent power cord for the Woo runs for around 2000 euros. That's a little more expensive than what I'd like to spend, but hey, if that's what it takes !
  I also plan to change the LCD-2 cable. Not for something like the ALO (way to disproportionately expensive IMHO), but something like the Q-cable. If the amp happens to be a little too dark for my tastes, maybe a silver one.
  Purchase date is planned between late September and late december. I'm already asking questions as I'd like to try the gear before buying - so I need time to determine what's worth trying and how to find somebody owning it.
  I'd like to use one system only for all my music so it should be versatile (doesn't have to be perfect everywhere though), and I'll keep it as is without much upgrade for quite a long time (I feel it is more sane to steer clear from head-fi sometimes ).


----------



## Duckman

Maya Tlab,
   
  For just over $1000 I think you might find the Burson HA160D very satisfying as an LCD2 amplifier/DAC. It has a very organic sound signature, and instrument timbre is beautifully rendered.
   
  We were able to eek out a little more soundstage width and micro detail from a V200/Lite DAC-83 combo which cost twice as much, but the 160D was certainly a worthy compeditor and suffered very little in the comparison. In fact some may prefer the Burson all-in-one for its earthy realism.
   
  We also had the Burson HA160D/LCD2 setup next to a Stax O2Mk1/Exstata combo also (fed by a Metric Halo UNL2 DAC), and the LCD2 did not suffer in the comparison. Given the Exstata is not the greatest O2 amp, the sound from it is still quite nice. The O2 combo was more lit-up and detailed, and had the better soundstage width, but the LCD2 to my ears gave instruments and voices a more real and natural character. It was certainly the darker phone. But I think I would pick it as my favourite of the two combinations, not only for rock music, but also for classical recordings we used.
   
  I'm guessing a BHSE or similar would change things for me, but we're talking different price ranges here.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





n3rdling said:


> No amp is going to transform the LCD2 from being 'bad' at classical to 'good' at classical, if you infact feel the LCD2 is 'bad' at classical (or any other genre).  I've heard the LCD2 on everything from a Sansa Clip to some of the very best headphone amps there are, and the change isn't going to be significant enough to suddenly go from bad to good with any genre.  This is really for any headphone though.  Also, you may consider the LCD2 good with classical...that critique has been mentioned by a few people (myself included, at least for symphonic works) but not everybody agrees on the matter.  For your price range you should be able to get a 2 channel B22 which should max out the LCD2's abilities, or at least come very close.


 
  There's a new sheriff in town.


----------



## MayaTlab

Quote: 





duckman said:


> Maya Tlab,
> 
> For just over $1000 I think you might find the Burson HA160D very satisfying as an LCD2 amplifier/DAC. It has a very organic sound signature, and instrument timbre is beautifully rendered.
> 
> ...


 

 Thank you for the information. The Burson HA 160 was actually the front runner until I read about the Apex amps which coul be quite interesting as well.
   
  However, I'm not so sure I'd be interested in the Amp + DAC combo. I'm soon to use a HM 801 as a portable setup and it seems to be a very solid entry-level source. Mike on Headfonia said that it was substantially better than the DAC inside the m902 (which isn't accordingly great I admit). The Burson DAC inside the HA 160D is reviewed as being good, but I'm not sure it is better than the HM 801. Ultimately( meaning : probably in one year), the HM 801 will be replaced by something better than either it or the Burson DAC, so I don't see a point in buying an Amp + DAC combo.
   
  Did you compare the V200 amp to the HA-160D amp ONLY (not its DAC vs the Lite + V200) ? There are quite a lot of comparisons around here but one more opinion would be welcomed !
   
  The Apex peak seems very intersting but a little expensive when combined with the Volcano. The Arete on the other hand is a more sensible solution. The peak is reported as having more details and imaging abilities than the Concerto (according to Skylab). I'll wait for more information on Peak vs Arete.


----------



## Duckman

No critical comparison of the amps, I'm afraid. We set things up to compare systems, with a focus on the different DACs.
   
  In the price bracket you're looking at, it would be interesting to hear how the Peak or Arete, without the Volcano, compares to the Violectric V200 (or Burson HA160). But I think it will be difficult finding someone who has heard these together.
   
  It will be interesting to see if Skylab gives any comparisons of the Arete sans Volcano to other amps.
   
   
  Quote:


mayatlab said:


> Did you compare the V200 amp to the HA-160D amp ONLY (not its DAC vs the Lite + V200) ? There are quite a lot of comparisons around here but one more opinion would be welcomed !
> 
> The Apex peak seems very intersting but a little expensive when combined with the Volcano. The Arete on the other hand is a more sensible solution. The peak is reported as having more details and imaging abilities than the Concerto (according to Skylab). I'll wait for more information on Peak vs Arete.


----------



## grokit

If I was to start over with a somewhat flexible budget it would be hard to beat this system for its combination of simplicity and fidelity.
   

   
  $5k and you're done; you get a "free" $500 headphone cable as a bonus but the iPad, dock and headphone stand are optional.


----------



## MayaTlab

Quote: 





grokit said:


> If I was to start over with a somewhat flexible budget it would be hard to beat this system for its combination of simplicity and fidelity.
> 
> 
> 
> $5k and you're done; you get a "free" $500 headphone cable as a bonus but the iPad, dock and headphone stand are optional.


 

 That would certainly be an interesting thing to hear, but that also certainly is a long stretch over my somewhat flexible budget . I'd like to keep everything except source and IC below 2000 euros and preferably 1500. The LCD-2 + Burson is for me 1300. a Q cable or something similar goes for 200 euros or so if I'm correct, so I'm perfectly under budget. The Arete would stretch it a little, but if it outperforms the Burson WITHOUT the Volcano, I'd pick it in a heartbeat as it would offer me a nice upgrade path in less than a year along with a better source. Now, the RWA has a source inside, so that's interesting, I admit.


----------



## tme110

Quote: 





duckman said:


> It will be interesting to see if Skylab gives any comparisons of the Arete sans Volcano to other amps.


 


  I'd be surprised if skylab ever even listens to the Arete.


----------



## pp312

Quote: 





n3rdling said:


> No amp is going to transform the LCD2 from being 'bad' at classical to 'good' at classical, if you infact feel the LCD2 is 'bad' at classical (or any other genre).  I've heard the LCD2 on everything from a Sansa Clip to some of the very best headphone amps there are, and the change isn't going to be significant enough to suddenly go from bad to good with any genre.  This is really for any headphone though.  Also, you may consider the LCD2 good with classical...that critique has been mentioned by a few people (myself included, at least for symphonic works) but not everybody agrees on the matter.  For your price range you should be able to get a 2 channel B22 which should max out the LCD2's abilities, or at least come very close.


 

 Actually I'd like someone to supply me with a plausible reason why a headphone with very fine technical credentials, which performs admirably on popular genres, as most seem to agree, would for some reason be under par with classical.
   
  I know classical, particularly symphonic orchestral, is the hardest genre to reproduce satisfactorily, but the LCD-2 isn't the sort of phone one would expect to fail at it; and indeed, my own ears tell me it doesn't, not in the slightest. So why are so many people insisting the LCD-2 is not at its best with classical? Those same people also tend to say that brighter phones are better for classical, but why? I don't associate classical with brightness, and the systems of most of the classical lovers I know are anything but bright. In fact I'd associate the need for a healthy treble output more with certain popular genres. So it's all a bit of a mystery to me, and not the only one on Head-Fi either.


----------



## Skylab

tme110 said:


> I'd be surprised if skylab ever even listens to the Arete.



Then get your surprised face on - I have a review loaner on the way as we speak


----------



## tme110

Come to think of it, I do remember you saying that but my fragile brain simply couldn't process that information and chose to ignore it.


----------



## oqvist

Quote: 





pp312 said:


> Actually I'd like someone to supply me with a plausible reason why a headphone with very fine technical credentials, which performs admirably on popular genres, as most seem to agree, would for some reason be under par with classical.
> 
> I know classical, particularly symphonic orchestral, is the hardest genre to reproduce satisfactorily, but the LCD-2 isn't the sort of phone one would expect to fail at it; and indeed, my own ears tell me it doesn't, not in the slightest. So why are so many people insisting the LCD-2 is not at its best with classical? Those same people also tend to say that brighter phones are better for classical, but why? I don't associate classical with brightness, and the systems of most of the classical lovers I know are anything but bright. In fact I'd associate the need for a healthy treble output more with certain popular genres. So it's all a bit of a mystery to me, and not the only one on Head-Fi either.


 


 I don´t think my LCD-2 has a problem with classical no except that it could soundstage a bit better. I also don´t relate to classical with brightness either. No classical I have ever listened to live has been bright or harsh to my ears. Most experience has been sitting in an orchestra though in the brass section. However never noticed anything bright in any concert hall I been at either.


----------



## KevinWolff

When I first heard about it I panicked. I was in the 2 week range of my new Peak/Volcano and didn't know what to do. Then I rolled in another tube, and all was well in my world again, lol. I love the Peak. 
  However I am curious to hear about the Arete.
  
  Quote: 





skylab said:


> Then get your surprised face on - I have a review loaner on the way as we speak


----------



## MayaTlab

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Then get your surprised face on - I have a review loaner on the way as we speak


 
   
  May I dare ask for a comparison with the peak and a short paragraph about the influence of the Volcano ? And a quick opinion about an Arete without Volcano against amps commonly seen in LCD-2 threads, such as the Concerto, the Burson, the V200 or others you had experience with ? I know, I'm demanding .


----------



## ptrok

If you want a combo amp/dac I would recommend the Dacmini simply for the fact the DAC portion is better which could open up a later investment in a better amp if the desire ever arises (which it will unfortunately). The amp portion of the Dacmini is great as well providing a lot of detail and imaging. I did wish it provided a bit more in terms of bass. It does a great job of presenting treble, I love listening to classical music with this combo as well as jazz, blues and other genres. Look into it at least, haven't seen a bad review about it yet.


----------



## MayaTlab

Quote: 





ptrok said:


> If you want a combo amp/dac I would recommend the Dacmini simply for the fact the DAC portion is better which could open up a later investment in a better amp if the desire ever arises (which it will unfortunately). The amp portion of the Dacmini is great as well providing a lot of detail and imaging. I did wish it provided a bit more in terms of bass. It does a great job of presenting treble, I love listening to classical music with this combo as well as jazz, blues and other genres. Look into it at least, haven't seen a bad review about it yet.


 

 Thank you but I'm specifically looking for separates. I'll soon have a HM 801 which is good enough to compete with most mid level DACs around its price point or a little lower and I may add later on a separate high quality DAC that's likely to surpass most integrated ones.


----------



## Yoga

A very happy camper here with the LCD-2/160D combo.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





mayatlab said:


> That would certainly be an interesting thing to hear, but that also certainly is a long stretch over my somewhat flexible budget . I'd like to keep everything except source and IC below 2000 euros and preferably 1500. The LCD-2 + Burson is for me 1300. a Q cable or something similar goes for 200 euros or so if I'm correct, so I'm perfectly under budget. The Arete would stretch it a little, but if it outperforms the Burson WITHOUT the Volcano, I'd pick it in a heartbeat as it would offer me a nice upgrade path in less than a year along with a better source. Now, the RWA has a source inside, so that's interesting, I admit.


 

 Don't forget its other interesting feature, the ability to be used off the grid with battery power and be taken anywhere with its custom case that holds everything including the headphones.


----------



## jax

Quote: 





mayatlab said:


> May I dare ask for a comparison with the peak and a short paragraph about the influence of the Volcano ? And a quick opinion about an Arete without Volcano against amps commonly seen in LCD-2 threads, such as the Concerto, the Burson, the V200 or others you had experience with ? I know, I'm demanding .


 

 I compared it to my V181 in balanced.  My review is on the review thread for the Peak Volcano in TTVJ's section.  In brief, they are both quite resolving, offer plenty of extension and authority in both directions, yet are certainly different, most markedly in the mids.  Ultimately I thought what the PV brought to the table in terms of midrange magic, a sort of euphonic, more organic presentation, especially with vocals, that made it a marginal winner in my book.  The PV err'd on the side of euphonic, while the V181 was a bit more neutral, yet not at all hard edged or sterile.   OTOH, I had two other audiophile friends stop by at the time, one was member, Equus.  Both of them preferred the V181 on their comparisons (which were brief to be fair).  Equus did take the Peak home and wrote his own review comparing it to his amps on hand.  My opinion is that it will be a matter of taste and there is no clear winner in that race, but my preference was for the APV.  I have not heard the V200, nor the Concerto or Burson and could not comment.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





trubrew said:


> I am sorry, but why do people call class D amps Digital, They aren't. It may have a digital control circuit, but every time a product is labeled like that it only propagates bad information. I feel like any amp company should know that, but maybe they do it on purpose because Digital is a buzz word. It is like throwing HD at the end of everything.
> 
> Sorry, that is off topic. It may make a nice budget amp for orthos. I could only see using it with Fostex's or for a second or third room. I could not see many people only spending $100 on a main amp for headphones costing near $1000.


 
   


  A *Class D amplifier* or *switching amplifier* is an electronic amplifier where all power devices (usuallyMOSFETs) are operated as binary switches. They are either fully on or fully off. Ideally, zero time is spent transitioning between those two states.

  Output stages such as those used in pulse generators are examples of class D amplifiers. However, the term mostly applies to power amplifiers intended to reproduce signals with a bandwidth well below the switching frequency.


----------



## MayaTlab

I've read a few things about the Decware Mini Torii. As I'm considering the Peak, then I guess the Dacware's price cannot be an argument against it. However, it seems unable to run on both 110V and 230V. That's a little problematic for me.
   
  Is it considered a warm amp ? Or is it like the Peak - a tube amp that's not too tubey ?


----------



## grokit

I have read that description of the Peak a few times, that it's not too tubey. It is a hybrid after all.


----------



## K3cT

Quote: 





mayatlab said:


> Hello,
> 
> I'm going to get a rather large cash inflow in the next months and interested in buying a good home system. I'm interested in Stax headphones and orthos as well.
> 
> ...


 


  Get a better source.


----------



## K3cT

Quote: 





pp312 said:


> Actually I'd like someone to supply me with a plausible reason why a headphone with very fine technical credentials, which performs admirably on popular genres, as most seem to agree, would for some reason be under par with classical.
> 
> I know classical, particularly symphonic orchestral, is the hardest genre to reproduce satisfactorily, but the LCD-2 isn't the sort of phone one would expect to fail at it; and indeed, my own ears tell me it doesn't, not in the slightest. So why are so many people insisting the LCD-2 is not at its best with classical? Those same people also tend to say that brighter phones are better for classical, but why? I don't associate classical with brightness, and the systems of most of the classical lovers I know are anything but bright. In fact I'd associate the need for a healthy treble output more with certain popular genres. So it's all a bit of a mystery to me, and not the only one on Head-Fi either.


 

 Sound-staging is certainly the LCD2's primary weakness for me... imaging-wise, it's superb but classical symphony needs an airier presentation to truly shine for me as otherwise you're gonna miss the illusion of grandeur. Soundstage is smaller than ideal with the LCD2.


----------



## pp312

Fair enough. I guess I'm just insensitive to that aspect. They sound perfectly fine to me.
   
  I think it's important to remember though that recordings are generally made with the microphones quite close in studios or relatively small halls, and thus don't have the "grandeur", as you put it, of large concert halls. I wonder if the LCD-2 is just more honest than some other phones.


----------



## olor1n

Now that people have had time to roll tubes with the Lyr, are there any updated impressions on its synergy with the LCD-2? Does it still present as one of the better options without going into the big ticket gear?


----------



## Skylab

mayatlab said:


> I've read a few things about the Decware Mini Torii. As I'm considering the Peak, then I guess the Dacware's price cannot be an argument against it. However, it seems unable to run on both 110V and 230V. That's a little problematic for me.
> 
> Is it considered a warm amp ? Or is it like the Peak - a tube amp that's not too tubey ?


The Mini-Torii can be tube rolled almost Infinitely. It will always be slightly warm, but you can tailor the sound to a pretty wide degree, wince you can roll in a huge variety of power tubes and a pretty big variety of driver tubes too.


----------



## MayaTlab

Quote: 





skylab said:


> The Mini-Torii can be tube rolled almost Infinitely. It will always be slightly warm, but you can tailor the sound to a pretty wide degree, wince you can roll in a huge variety of power tubes and a pretty big variety of driver tubes too.


 

 Thanks for the answer. Did you find the Decware roughly equivalent to the Apex Peak regarding technical abilities ? From reading your posts about them It seems your slight preference for the Decware is more related to its slightly more organic sound signature than technical abilities (such as better details).
   
  Anyway thank you all for your answers. I now have a clearer picture of where I'm heading to and can start auditionning a few key items.


----------



## Skylab

I slightly preferred the Mini-Torii with the LCD-2 for that reason, yes. However, the P/V is much more versatile as a headphone amp. The MT is really for planars and orthos only - works best by far with low impedance and low sensitivity headphones. But it is also dynamite with small high-sensitivity speakers


----------



## zzffnn

MayaTlab,
   
  My quick suggestion to you is Audio-gd NFB-10ES. It is a very good dac/amp combo with Sabre 32 dac chip, balanced and SE headphone output, all under $1000 shipped. If you do not want to deal with DIY, offerings from Audio-gd is hard to beat in terms of value, especially for your budget.
   
  I have HM-801 and Gamma2 Dac feeding Beta 22 to LCD-2s. I slightly prefer Gamma2 over HM-801. I do not feel LCD-2s lacking treble or details with Gamm2 and Beta 22. If I were to spend your money, I would skip the $200 cable upgrade and get a DIY Twisted Pear Buffalo 2 dac along with a Beta 22, from some reputable builders here at Headfi.
   
  That said, I agree with n3rdling on page 206. If you listen strictly to classical music, HE-6 or HE-500 may work better. Maybe consider Beyer T1 also. My previous  Beyer T1 with a balanced DIY Bijou tube amp combo provides bigger soundstage and overall a similar sound, which may work better with classical music than LCD-2s / Beta 22.


----------



## MayaTlab

Quote: 





zzffnn said:


> MayaTlab,
> 
> My quick suggestion to you is Audio-gd NFB-10ES. It is a very good dac/amp combo with Sabre 32 dac chip, balanced and SE headphone output, all under $1000 shipped. If you do not want to deal with DIY, offerings from Audio-gd is hard to beat in terms of value, especially for your budget.
> 
> ...


 

 Thank you. I don't listen strictly to classical, but to all kinds of genres. That's why I'm trying to balance the entire system. I know (I tried them) that, for example, a Stax 507 + amp would be great with classical, so, if I were to go follow this route, I'd try to make the system as pleasant as possible with, let's say, rock n roll. I'm just trying to consider what my options are to do the reverse with the LCD-2 , listen to as many of those options possible, and then choose. I'm also considering the Hifiman options and the T1. Not the HD 800 as I'm pretty sure getting them to do badly recorded music from the 70s sound anywhere near decent would be close to impossible within my budget. Currently the 507 + WA GES is my first contender (for the only reason that I tried them for several hours on different setups and I know I can make them sound OK with rock or other genres), and the LCD-2 a close second. The HE-6 might come into play, but I'll wait for more information on the EF6 to start inquiring about it. 
  I know the HM 801 isn't the last word in DAC technicalities, but as I said, I'll upgrade it last as I feel it would require something around $1000 to give justice to the kind of system I'm considering and to constitute a clear and undisputable improvement over the HM 801. That's a little too costly right now, and I know the HM 801 will be a great temporary solution (I actually pitted it with the Stax 507 against a 1000 euros CD player, and, although it was behind in technicalities, it actually had a much more pleasant sound signature).
   
  It seems however that I'm likely to go over 1500 euros and probably hit 2000 euros to get where I want to get.


----------



## sphinxvc

Quote:


k3ct said:


> Sound-staging is certainly the LCD2's primary weakness for me... imaging-wise, it's superb but classical symphony needs an airier presentation to truly shine for me as otherwise you're gonna miss the illusion of grandeur. Soundstage is smaller than ideal with the LCD2.


 
   
  Good way to put it, I agree.  Relevant as far as the original's go, but of course, the Rev. 2 may be different.


----------



## tme110

Quote: 





zzffnn said:


> MayaTlab,
> 
> My quick suggestion to you is Audio-gd NFB-10ES. It is a very good dac/amp combo with Sabre 32 dac chip, balanced and SE headphone output, all under $1000 shipped. If you do not want to deal with DIY, offerings from Audio-gd is hard to beat in terms of value, especially for your budget.


 


  I personally think the NFB-10 is the best deal in headfi today.  I think the NFB-1 was the first fully balanced DAC for <$1000 then the -10 came out with gobs of power, balanced amp and DAC for <$1000.  Of course, it does not have the way over-the top engineering that the NFB-1 DAC and pheonix amp would have but it's also over $1300 cheaper.


----------



## fasterthanafish

audio gd Phoenix?


----------



## Loevhagen

From RWA´s home page: "Designed and voiced using Audez’e headphones and ALO Audio’s new 4-Pin Balanced Audez’e Cable".
   
  I wonder how this translates now with the rev. 2 drivers in the LCD-2s. Did they "voice" it with the rev. 2 you think?


----------



## pp312

Quote: 





kevinwolff said:


> Then I rolled in another tube, and all was well in my world again,


 

 Yes, a lot of people do that. Most get arrested sooner or later.


----------



## ptrok

A bit confused with the comments about the LCD-2 having imaging limitations. I feel the imaging is right on point, sounds come from where they need to come from at the appropriate sound level. Granted the soundstaging isn't as broad as some other cans I have listened to. You're definitely not going to feel like you're in a concert hall with it but it does the imaging just as it should IMHO. If you guys were talking about making a artificially large soundstage, then I would definitely agree with you.


----------



## khaos974

pp312 said:


> Yes, a lot of people do that. Most get arrested sooner or later.




Depends on the country


----------



## tme110

yep
  Quote: 





fasterthanafish said:


> audio gd Phoenix?


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





pp312 said:


> I think it's important to remember though that recordings are generally made with the microphones quite close in studios or relatively small halls, and thus don't have the "grandeur", as you put it, of large concert halls. I wonder if the LCD-2 is just more honest than some other phones.


 
  Yes, this is the case.  I'm not saying this to "defend" the LCD-2  in any way, it just happens to be the fact.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





ptrok said:


> A bit confused with the comments about the LCD-2 having imaging limitations. I feel the imaging is right on point, sounds come from where they need to come from at the appropriate sound level. Granted the soundstaging isn't as broad as some other cans I have listened to. You're definitely not going to feel like you're in a concert hall with it but it does the imaging just as it should IMHO. If you guys were talking about making a artificially large soundstage, then I would definitely agree with you.


 

 Well the imaging is even better now with the r.2 and the soundstage is much improved. It falls away more naturally at the edges than before.


----------



## pp312

I'm with ptrok: I think the imaging is just fine (and natural) as it is. As for the soundstage falling away at the edges, I don't understand that at all, so it's probably never going to bother me. Obviously different listeners are sensitive to different things. My particular sensitivity is listening fatigue of any kind, and the LCD-2 avoids that in every area except perhaps comfort.


----------



## MacedonianHero

I find the imaging very good with the LCD-2s. Any time I'm not too sure, I play the Chesky binaural recording to remind myself how much of the sound stage is actually in the recording.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





pp312 said:


> I'm with ptrok: I think the imaging is just fine (and natural) as it is. As for the soundstage falling away at the edges, I don't understand that at all, so it's probably never going to bother me. Obviously different listeners are sensitive to different things. My particular sensitivity is listening fatigue of any kind, and the LCD-2 avoids that in every area except perhaps comfort.


 

 What version LCD-2 do you have?  there is definitely a difference now as regards to the width of the soundstage. It is less restricted at the edges.


----------



## pp312

What I meant was, I don't understand the concept of the image having "edges", so I certainly don't hear anything falling away from them. All I notice about soundstage width is the difference between mono and stereo. So long as the instruments are placed in an arc in front of me I'm not greatly concerned how wide that arc is. Maybe I just listen for different things, like instrument tonality, depth etc.


----------



## RedBull

Quote:


ptrok said:


> A bit confused with the comments about the LCD-2 having imaging limitations. I feel the imaging is right on point, sounds come from where they need to come from at the appropriate sound level. Granted the soundstaging isn't as broad as some other cans I have listened to. You're definitely not going to feel like you're in a concert hall with it but it does the imaging just as it should IMHO. If you guys were talking about making a artificially large soundstage, then I would definitely agree with you.


 

 Fully agree. With all mics close to the instrument, there's no way we can feel the real large sounstage.  I heard cans that artificially faking it but that's not for me.  Each instruments up to the very last minute detail is heard in LCD-2, unlike HD650 where I heard more of the top tip of the treble, that's where the artificial soundstage come about.


----------



## RedBull

Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> I find the imaging very good with the LCD-2s. Any time I'm not too sure, I play the Chesky binaural recording to remind myself how much of the sound stage is actually in the recording.


 
   
  Enough playing, now tell me how your new baby WA-22 sounds like with LCD-2  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  compared to the Lyr.  You mentioned you like a bit more, in what areas?


----------



## MacedonianHero

redbull said:


> Enough playing, now tell me how your new baby WA-22 sounds like with LCD-2
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Running the WA22 unbalanced, I prefer the Lyr....but running the WA22 in balanced mode (with upgraded tubes) from my DAC-2 :basshead:. What an improvement. Everything (dynamics, sound stage, balance, control) kicked up a notch where I prefer the WA22 over the Lyr. But not 4x like the price difference.


----------



## Duckman

I think I agree with WA in the sense that the R1, at least to me, had a 'closed in' feel about the sound as compared to the 'open' feel of, say, the O2 or even the Sympnones Magnum I've had here (haven't heard the LCD2R2 yet). Certainly within the confines of the space created by the LCD2R1, the instruments are well placed etc., but the 'closed-in-ness is still there for me. Not that I mind all that much. I look forward to hearing the Rev.2 (tomorrow, c'mon Fedex!!!).
   
  Having said that, I think source and amp have a huge influence on soundstage width and depth. A couple of nights ago I was comparing the Lite DAC-83 to the W4SDAC1, and imaging was *very* noticeably different (the Lite having a far greater width and natural instrument placement and precision - though the W4S was tonally richer). Similarly with amps, if anyone has heard the Melos SHA-Gold: it throws a massive soundstage. I was laughing when I once plugged my humble DT250 into one.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





duckman said:


> I think I agree with WA in the sense that the R1, at least to me, had a 'closed in' feel about the sound as compared to the 'open' feel of, say, the O2 or even the Sympnones Magnum I've had here (haven't heard the LCD2R2 yet). Certainly within the confines of the space created by the LCD2R1, the instruments are well placed etc., but the 'closed-in-ness is still there for me. Not that I mind all that much. I look forward to hearing the Rev.2 (tomorrow, c'mon Fedex!!!).
> 
> Having said that, I think source and amp have a huge influence on soundstage width and depth. A couple of nights ago I was comparing the Lite DAC-83 to the W4SDAC1, and imaging was *very* noticeably different (the Lite having a far greater width and natural instrument placement and precision - though the W4S was tonally richer). Similarly with amps, if anyone has heard the Melos SHA-Gold: it throws a massive soundstage. I was laughing when I once plugged my humble DT250 into one.


 
  Hmmmmm I wonder what a Melos is going for on the used market?


----------



## Duckman

I see you jest, but the Melos SHA Gold might cost you just over a grand, if you can find one. I've only read a little about it, but it seems that unmodded units became somewhat unreliable. Also, not sure if it would be a good LCD2 amp.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





duckman said:


> I see you jest, but the Melos SHA Gold might cost you just over a grand, if you can find one. I've only read a little about it, but it seems that unmodded units became somewhat unreliable. Also, not sure if it would be a good LCD2 amp.


 

 I only half jest. I've heard of the Melos unit but not in some time.  Don't think they come around that often but I have heard they have had some problems with failure.  I'd buy a non working unit if it were cheap enough.


----------



## DeadEars

Yes the Melos preamp is one of those things I wish I'd never sold.  At the time, I was using it only as a preamp as I had yet to discover the world of high-end headphones.  It was a darn nice preamp, but a bit on the romantic side.  Not my first choice for metal, but for girl-with-piano stuff it was to-die-for...
   
  Wish I still had it...


----------



## MrQ

Quote:


loevhagen said:


> From RWA´s home page: "Designed and voiced using Audez’e headphones and ALO Audio’s new 4-Pin Balanced Audez’e Cable".
> 
> I wonder how this translates now with the rev. 2 drivers in the LCD-2s. Did they "voice" it with the rev. 2 you think?


 
   
  I asked the same question. Here's Vinnie's reply...
  
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/437559/isabellina-hpa-owner-s-thread-and-impressions/480#post_7603151


----------



## Loevhagen

Thanks. 
   
  According to the quote I guess it sounds a-w-e-s-o-m-e any how...
   
  Quote: 





> Alex of Audeze and Ken of ALO can confirm that the Rev2 sounds AWESOME with the Audeze Edition amp/dac.  We'll be selling this combo together -
> 
> but the Rev1s also sound AWESOME with the Audeze Edition amp/dac.


----------



## Ultrainferno

hi guys

i have an opportunity to buy an lcd-2 which i didnt plan. so i didnt have time to read this thread. Can anyone tell me how it would pair with my Lafigaro 339 tube amp?

sry if this has been answered before. i have to decide fast
Thanks for your help!


----------



## alvin sawdust

LCD-2 sounds very good with my 337se, hope this is an indication of how it might sound with the 339.
   
  While on the subject, the only phones I have listened to on the 337se that didn't sound good was the HE-6 and any Grado's.


----------



## sling5s

Sorry didn't read through this thread.  Can anyone compare the HDP vs Lyr with LCD-2?
   
  Much appreciated.


----------



## MacedonianHero

sling5s said:


> Sorry didn't read through this thread.  Can anyone compare the HDP vs Lyr with LCD-2?
> 
> Much appreciated.




HDP...not ideal IMO...the LCD-2s sounded "polite" and thin with poor dynamics....the Lyr (as Kevin put it), kicks like a mule.  

Orthos need power to reach their full potential and 4 W into 50 ohms from the Lyr does a phenomenal job driving both the LCD-2s and even HE-6s. The Nuforce on the other hand is only 250mW ish into 50 ohms...not enough to get your foot in the door with either can IMO.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> HDP...not ideal IMO...the LCD-2s sounded "polite" and thin with poor dynamics....the Lyr (as Kevin put it), kicks like a mule.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  IMHO, the HDP is overpriced.  It's ok as an entry level DAC that happens to have a low powered headphone monitor circuit in it, but it's priced too high for what it delivers.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> IMHO, the HDP is overpriced.  It's ok as an entry level DAC that happens to have a low powered headphone monitor circuit in it, but it's priced too high for what it delivers.


 

 I think as a DAC it's a little better than my $400 Headroom MicroDAC or Pico DAC.  And the headphone amp is not that underpowered, as they increased the output right before it was released but never updated the specs.  The headphone jack sounds identical to an RSA Protector in balanced mode, with slightly more power when driving HD600 but good bit more power when driving HE-6.  It also sounds much better with my 15v Sigma 11 PSU powering it.  Granted it's slightly aggressive sounding and not a great match with my HD800, but I think it does a nice job with the LCD-2, Denon D7000, HF-2, and a very good job with HD600.


----------



## MacedonianHero

While I generally agree with Kevin based on my experiences, I will concede that the HDP does a "nice" job with the LCD-2s. The thing is, the Lyr with the proper tubes does a fantastic job with the LCD-2s.


----------



## olor1n

"Kicks like a mule"  is a very apt description of the Lyr. I suspect the Lyr isn't as praised as it deserves because many have formulated opinions based on stock configuration. It's elevated to another level with the right tubes.


----------



## MacedonianHero

olor1n said:


> "Kicks like a mule"  is a very apt description of the Lyr. I suspect the Lyr isn't as praised as it deserves because many have formulated opinions based on stock configuration. It's elevated to another level with the right tubes.




Exactly. The JJ tubes are average at best...a bit dry IMO. But roll in some better tubes and you're off to the races. I think many "non tube" fans bought it initially and didn't experiment with different tubes. Thanks to MrScary for rectifying that one.

The Lyr is a better amp at powering my LCD-2s (and HE-6s for that matter) than the more expensive Concerto and WA2. Don't let the price fool you, this is one heck of an ortho amp.


----------



## fomoz

macedonianhero said:


> Exactly. The JJ tubes are average at best...a bit dry IMO. But roll in some better tubes and you're off to the races. I think many "non tube" fans bought it initially and didn't experiment with different tubes. Thanks to MrScary for rectifying that one.
> 
> The Lyr is a better amp at powering my LCD-2s (and HE-6s for that matter) than the more expensive Concerto and WA2. Don't let the price fool you, this is one heck of an ortho amp.




but is it that much better than a HA-160D?


----------



## MacedonianHero

fomoz said:


> but is it that much better than a HA-160D?




With the LCD-2s, I prefer it to the HA-160 and Concerto by a reasonable margin.


----------



## Paul Meakin

I'm currently using HD650s, but considering LCD-2s.
   
  I have an old gadget called a 'Can Opener' from a couple of decades ago, which was designed to connect the speaker outputs of my equally old Naim power amp to a headphone socket.
   
  The NAP-250 that I have will deliver around 10A/70VA continuously, and 15A/400VA peak... but the Can Opener fortunately attenuates the signal to sensible levels for headphones. I used to a pair of old Beyers (1980s vintage 990s?) and it worked fine with them.
   
  I suspect that this might sound spectacular into the 650s or LCD-2s, and it will cost me nothing to try with the 650s. I just need to retrieve it from my friend who I loaned it to some years ago; he's happy to return it.
   
  I'm really tempted by the idea, so do you think I should I give it a try, given how much I like the 650s and the prospect of the LCD-2s?​


----------



## Hero Kid

Has anyone read anything about the Butte desktop amp designed by Pete Millet and how it performs with the LCD-2? I know it hasn't been released yet and I don't think Tyll has had the opportunity to give it a listen but it has me curious. For people like me on a limited budget it might be the entry into the world of Millet designed and built amps...


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> While I generally agree with Kevin based on my experiences, I will concede that the HDP does a "nice" job with the LCD-2s. The thing is, the Lyr with the proper tubes does a fantastic job with the LCD-2s.


 

 I understand.  I haven't tried the Lyr yet, and the DACmini and SR-71b with balanced Silver Dragon also do a better job with the LCD-2, but the HDP still isn't anything to shake a stick at. Now that my ZDT has the upgraded partial silver transformers it is my best amp for the LCD-2.


----------



## fomoz

macedonianhero said:


> With the LCD-2s, I prefer it to the HA-160 and Concerto by a reasonable margin.




what is different between how it sounds with your Lyr and the HA-160?


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





paul meakin said:


> I'm currently using HD650s, but considering LCD-2s.
> 
> I have an old gadget called a 'Can Opener' from a couple of decades ago, which was designed to connect the speaker outputs of my equally old Naim power amp to a headphone socket.
> 
> ...


 
  By all means, give it a try!


----------



## Paul Meakin

I guess with a degree of caution, to ensure that I don't melt the drivers onto my ears...?
  
  Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> By all means, give it a try!


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





paul meakin said:


> I guess with a degree of caution, to ensure that I don't melt the drivers onto my ears...?


 
  Of course.  On the positive side, since the ear cushions are leather rather than pleather, they won't melt, they'll just fry.


----------



## sling5s

How are the LCD-2 with Lyr with stock tubes compared to 6922 Genalex Gold Lions? Do the 6922 Genalex Gold Lions make that much difference?
  I will probably use it with stock tubes for awhile until I can upgrade.  
  And where can I purchased these 6922 Genalex Gold Lions and how much do they cost?


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





sling5s said:


> How are the LCD-2 with Lyr with stock tubes compared to 6922 Genalex Gold Lions? Do the 6922 Genalex Gold Lions make that much difference?
> I will probably use it with stock tubes for awhile until I can upgrade.
> And where can I purchased these 6922 Genalex Gold Lions and how much do they cost?


 
  You'll likely get the same answer in this thread as you did in the Lyr tube rolling thread.


----------



## Francoy

Quote:


macedonianhero said:


> Exactly. The JJ tubes are average at best...a bit dry IMO. But roll in some better tubes and you're off to the races. I think many "non tube" fans bought it initially and didn't experiment with different tubes. Thanks to MrScary for rectifying that one.
> 
> The Lyr is a better amp at powering my LCD-2s (and HE-6s for that matter) than the more expensive Concerto and WA2. Don't let the price fool you, this is one heck of an ortho amp.


 

 Would you mind sharing your tube tips as to to what tubes you thought outperformed the stock ones?
   
  I’ve heard about the Mullards 6DJ8... Any other worthy of mention?
   
  Thanx in advance!


----------



## MacedonianHero

francoy said:


> Quote:
> 
> Would you mind sharing your tube tips as to to what tubes you thought outperformed the stock ones?
> 
> ...




I tried the Mullard CV2492s and they were great, I've also tried NOS Sylvania, Philips, and RCA 6922s. In the end, I preferred the Genalex Gold Lions. I found them the most transparent and really beautiful mids. I do have a pair of NOS GE 6BZ7s coming in late next week, they do have a bit more gain (20%) than the 6922/E88CC tube and might be a great match for my HE-6s...I'll report back when they're here.


----------



## Frank I

I am with peter on the genelex 6922 my favorite 6922. Very good mids and bass and an extended treble not missing anything iMO and excellent build quality. new Sensor hit a home run with this tube not cheap but worth it.


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





sling5s said:


> How are the LCD-2 with Lyr with stock tubes compared to 6922 Genalex Gold Lions? Do the 6922 Genalex Gold Lions make that much difference?
> I will probably use it with stock tubes for awhile until I can upgrade.
> And where can I purchased these 6922 Genalex Gold Lions and how much do they cost?


 


  Jim McShane at JMcShane at prodigy.net does the best with matching these tubes. His web page is on audio asylum home page. A great tube vendor in Chicago.


----------



## Shubar

A question to those who have tested both the Schiit Lyr and Burson HA-160A, which one left the better impression on you? Currently looking for an amp/dac system around $1200 max and I cannot decide . Does not help that I cannot audition the amps.
   
  Thanks


----------



## Francoy

Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> I tried the Mullard CV2492s and they were great, I've also tried NOS Sylvania, Philips, and RCA 6922s. In the end, I preferred the Genalex Gold Lions. I found them the most transparent and really beautiful mids. I do have a pair of NOS GE 6BZ7s coming in late next week, they do have a bit more gain (20%) than the 6922/E88CC tube and might be a great match for my HE-6s...I'll report back when they're here.


 

 Much appreciated ;¬)


----------



## DeadEars

Quote: 





frank i said:


> Jim McShane at JMcShane at prodigy.net does the best with matching these tubes. His web page is on audio asylum home page. A great tube vendor in Chicago.


 

  
  I completely agree.  Jim McShane is a great guy and an expert on the Harmon Kardon Citation line of amplifiers and hi-fi equipment (classics!).  I rebuilt two Citation-II's and Jim was always there for me, helping me troubleshoot one particularly tough problem, and helping with parts and tubes as well. 
   
  I've probably purchased 30 Gold Lion (re-issue) tubes of various types from Jim, including KT-88's, KT-77's, and 6922's.  All have been excellent.  In all of those I've only had 2 failures and Jim did a prompt replacement on both.  Unlike many online tube vendors, Jim takes the time to test and gain-match every tube he sells.  It would be worth paying more for this, yet Jim's prices are typically lower than many other sellers. 
   
  Highly recommended!


----------



## MacedonianHero

shubar said:


> A question to those who have tested both the Schiit Lyr and Burson HA-160A, which one left the better impression on you? Currently looking for an amp/dac system around $1200 max and I cannot decide . Does not help that I cannot audition the amps.
> 
> Thanks




The Burson is a very nice amp with the LCD-2s, but it lacks the dynamics and attack of the Lyr (with the right tubes).



francoy said:


> Much appreciated ;¬)




Anytime.


----------



## Shubar

Thanks. Guess I'll be looking forward to your impressions of the NOS GE 6BZ7 tubes. Don't know anything about tubes so i guess if I was to get the Lyr I would go with the stock NOS GE 6BZ7 provided.
  
  Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> The Burson is a very nice amp with the LCD-2s, but it lacks the dynamics and attack of the Lyr (with the right tubes).
> 
> 
> 
> Anytime.


----------



## Souji

I will be purchasing the Audeze LCD-2 pretty soon and I don't really think I have a good dac/amp to power them to their full potential. I currently own the FiiO E7/E9. 
   
  I do most of my listening on the computer, so what other dac/amp alternatives would you guys recommend for the LCD-2 that could drive them to their full potential?
   
  I have a limited budget, probably around $400-$600 at the most for a DAC and amp.
   
  I've been looking at the Nuforce Icon HDP since it's in my price range. Would the HDP be able to power the LCD-2's to it's full potential?
   
  Also the Schiit Lyr has been getting a lot of praise, but it doesn't have a DAC, so I wouldn't be able to connect it to my computer? Get the Lyr and save up for a DAC?
   
  Any other recommendations would be awesome!
   
  Thank you soo much in advance!


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





shubar said:


> Thanks. Guess I'll be looking forward to you impressions of the NOS GE 6BZ7 tubes. Don't know anything about tubes so i guess if I was to get the Lyr I would go with the stock NOS GE 6BZ7 provided.


 


  You know, I just put in a set of 6BZ7s today and I love them!  So far I think this the best I've heard out of the Lyr in my system.


----------



## JIGF

Quote: 





souji said:


> I will be purchasing the Audeze LCD-2 pretty soon and I don't really think I have a good dac/amp to power them to their full potential. I currently own the FiiO E7/E9.
> 
> I do most of my listening on the computer, so what other dac/amp alternatives would you guys recommend for the LCD-2 that could drive them to their full potential?
> 
> ...


 

 There are many good one-box solutions available right now, e.g, Audio GD NFB-12, Fostex HP-A3, CEntrance Dacport, stuff from Yulong. All in your price range.
   
  But, to my knowledge it is preferable to get separate amp and dac; IME that way you get the most flexibility and best results.
   
  You could get something from HRT and combine it with an amp like an Asgard. An LCD2 is not as nitpicking with gear as other high end phones, but you will always get the best out of them with better components.
   
  Personally I'd save up as much as I can and shoot for the offerings of Burson and/or Schiit, which are the best bang for the buck at the moment. They will do more than justice to the LCD2. 
   
  You would have to get something cheap (Audio GD, Audinst) to cure the itch while you save.


----------



## Equus

Quote: 





souji said:


> Also the Schiit Lyr has been getting a lot of praise, but it doesn't have a DAC, so I wouldn't be able to connect it to my computer? Get the Lyr and save up for a DAC?


 


  Depends on your computer rig.  Chances are that you do have some way of sending analog signal to the Lyr, whether it's onboard audio or a dedicated audio card.  How "quality" or "audiophile" it may or may not be, I don't know.  Even if you get an all-in-one solution, depending on the equipment it could be used later on as part of a more modular system.  The DACmini (which is not in your price range, but I use as an example and recommend if you can stretch the budget) is a good DAC in it's own right, so I use it on my computer rig until the day I decide to get a new amp for this setup.  I probably will actually stick to using it as an all-in-one, but it gives options.


----------



## zzffnn

Souji,
   
  I recommend getting a used DIY amp and a used DIY dac.
   
  For dac in your budget, I suggest AMB's Gamma1 in full configuration (usually $100-150 at the FS forum). Later on, you can find a builder to add modules to Gamma1 and make it into full Gamma2 (~$300 used) without throwing away a dime. Gamma1 by itself is very good (and it has USB,coaxial and optical inputs); while Gamma2 competes well with DACs going for close to $1000. Or maybe get a used Audio-gd Sparrrow / NFB-12 as dac.
   
  For a used DIY amp in your budget, I recommend EHHA or M3. There is an EHHA at AMP FS forum now going for $450, which is a great deal IMHO. I was about to buy that amp at $550 (its price went down $100 later on) but my plan changed.
  http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/558288/ehha-rev-a
   
  Disclaimer: I do not personally know the seller of that EHHA, but I had PM back and forth with him. He is an experienced and reputable builder and is very kind even with non-buying inquiries.
   
  I used to have a M3 with Sigma11 ($450, or $250 w/o Sigma11) and like it with LCD-2s too. But I think EHHA is at the level with Beta22, which is better than M3 technically and sonically. I am currently using Gamma2 and Beta22 with LCD-2s. And I loooove the combo. The Beta22 though, is at $700 above because it has more parts and more complexity than EHHA or M3.
  
  Quote: 





souji said:


> I have a limited budget, probably around $400-$600 at the most for a DAC and amp.


----------



## MacedonianHero

kwkarth said:


> You know, I just put in a set of 6BZ7s today and I love them!  So far I think this the best I've heard out of the Lyr in my system.




Great to hear.  Did you find an additional gain with the 6BZ7s in your Lyr?

Mine should be here this Friday.


----------



## cavedave

I have a Vincent KHV 111 that puts out 5 watts and for the LCD2 this is in my thought a very good match. I know this is not a real popular amp for most for one reason or another. I have been doing this for quite some time and will say this combination is the best  have heard.
  I also have a Marantz 2265B  Reciever which is alright with the LCD2 but does not begin to compare to the Vincent. I have kept the Vincent because I have changed some of the wiring and so decided to keep it as it is not stock. I have used it with HD600 and grados. But when the LCD2 came along this amp was made for these. Highs are wonderful bass is really strong and well defined and as always the midrange is the best I have heard. So just letting some know there are others choices and some not where you would expect.Through this amp you will not one thought about these being dark and it has way more then enough power to make this thnigs come to life well worth a listen. I might add that while I thought the Vincent was just OK with other headphones with the LCD2 it really shines.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> Great to hear.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Actually, I wasn't paying any attention to the gain, so I'm not sure if it changed or not.  I was focused on SQ and noise level, both of which improved from what had previously been in the amp which was a pair of Telefunken E88CC's


----------



## MacedonianHero

kwkarth said:


> Actually, I wasn't paying any attention to the gain, so I'm not sure if it changed or not.  I was focused on SQ and noise level, both of which improved from what had previously been in the amp which was a pair of Telefunken E88CC's




Thanks Kevin. I remember reading back that Jason mentioned it had a gain factor of 12 while the standard 6922/E88CC had a gain factor of 10. Glad to hear the SQ and noise level improved. The extra bit of gain should help with my HE-6s. ETA for them is Friday.


----------



## shinn

Hi,
  Do you guys think the Woo WA2 is more than sufficient to drive the LCD-2 and have some spare headroom? Good synergy?
  I'm aware that the WA6SE is way more powerful, but I'm afraid that it's more into Solid-State-sounding than tubey which I prefer.
   
  Has anyone tried pairing with the Hifiman EF-5?
   
  Thanks for your help!


----------



## travis-bickle

Quote: 





shinn said:


> Hi,
> Do you guys think the Woo WA2 is more than sufficient to drive the LCD-2 and have some spare headroom? Good synergy?
> I'm aware that the WA6SE is way more powerful, but I'm afraid that it's more into Solid-State-sounding than tubey which I prefer.
> 
> ...


 

 I'm still trying to make up my mind which headphone in which headamp-combination is my way to go. Have had a Beyer for many years and like'em. So at the beginning there was no doubt about the T-1. But after researching there things like the HifiMan-HE 500 and the Audeze LCD-2 Rev2 going through my mind. If its the Beyerdynamic then I would take the HifiMan EF-5 to combine. I live in germany so price- and support-wise its very attractive to go with the Beyer.So the interesting question from "shinn" is how the EF-5 matches with the LCD-2 Rev2. If theres no general mismatch I would have an amp to compare both headphones. I now its not the topic of this thread, but if you take the ef-5 as given, which one of the three headphones (HE500, Beyer T1, LCD-2) would be the way to go?


----------



## flaming_june

Such a broad question.  They all have their pros and cons but are heavily dependent on what type of music you enjoy.  I switch between the LCD2 and the T1 on an hourly basis.


----------



## adydula

Just took my LYR out of the Fedex box, and have all of 10 minutes play time...6BZ7 tubes.
  So far it sounds great...
   
  Listening to Jennifer Warnes 'The Hunter"...awesome..
   
  Volume at 9am is fine. 10 am starts things to really open up.
   
  Will explore all my favorites andr report back in a few hours....want to comparer AB with my other head amp as
  well
   
  Alex


----------



## travis-bickle

Quote: 





flaming_june said:


> Such a broad question.  They all have their pros and cons but are heavily dependent on what type of music you enjoy.  I switch between the LCD2 and the T1 on an hourly basis.


 


  Yeah i know. I'm looking for a single combination thats a good allrounder and can handle every genre, because I like a wide range of music:
   
  jazz, pop, rock, blues, classic, hip hop, electro, world music and so on. Maybe I should mention that the combination should harmonize with the smyth realizer and of course home cinema usage.
   
  I should start a seperate thread for that, but for now I would like to hear how the LCD-2 works with a HifiMan-EF5.


----------



## adydula

Ok so I have had almost 2 hours of listening to all sorts of stuff.

 First impression is I am selling my other amp.

 Second impression is the tube choice to me is perfect.

 I did a lot of reading as most of us do trying to get the choices down right the first
 time. Jason likes these as well as his number one choice in tubes.

 The volume control setting with these LCD2's from 8 am to 10 am is more than enough, this amp has endless power for these phones. Be careful...

 The LCD2's "come alive" with this amp. Absolutley wonderful soundstage, imaging, dynamic range.

 Chris Rea's Road to Hell, is great.
 Norah Jones is very very nice.
 LeAnn Rimes vocals are phenomenal!!
 Joe Satriani's Rubina is freaking awesome..

 The detail, punchiness is really nice, well defined, Jennifer Warnes The Hunter cd is excellent.

 Linda Ronstandt, Round Midnight double CD with Nelson Riddle...wonderful voice...

 6 Watts of power...Class A, it runs hot, not as hot as the ASGARD I had but does a better job with these cans...dont miss it at all.

 I got into such a sweet listening mode that I didnt want to take the phones off...Hearing "tonality" of things that are just more alive and noticeable now...sounds of drumsticks hittinf the drum rim, sound of "wood"..no sibilance...hand claps  so life-like etc..

 I really see NO reason for ME to roll tubes...its perfect...completly content!! and for me that is saying alot!

 The tube choice is perfect, absolutely perfect..that good...

 Life is good!!

 All the best
  Alex


----------



## zzffnn

To reply Travis-bickle,
   
  With EF-5 or another hybrid amp, I will take LCD-2s. With an OTL tube amp, I will take T1s (had a T1 with an balanced OTL tube amp before). T1 may have too much treble with ss amps or hybrids. But that is to my ears and my music.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





adydula said:


> Ok so I have had almost 2 hours of listening to all sorts of stuff.
> 
> First impression is I am selling my other amp.
> 
> ...


 
  Congratulations Alex!  Happy listening!


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





shinn said:


> Hi,
> Do you guys think the Woo WA2 is more than sufficient to drive the LCD-2 and have some spare headroom? Good synergy?
> I'm aware that the WA6SE is way more powerful, but I'm afraid that it's more into Solid-State-sounding than tubey which I prefer.
> 
> ...


 

 I'm thinking about a tube amp to compliment my solid state amp.  Over in the Woo owners thread I'm hearing the WA2 goes well with the LCD-2 so I'm giving it some thought.   My V200 will be my main amp but I also want a tube amp that has that classic sound to it.  I'm told the WA2 could be that amp in it's price range.


----------



## olor1n

I know source output has a bearing but with a 2V from my dac's line out, 10 o'clock out of the Lyr is crazy loud with the LCD-2 and HD650. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I'd like to know what levels others are listening at (A or C weighting if a metre is employed and also what type of sound file is used to get a reading).


----------



## MacedonianHero

olor1n said:


> I know source output has a bearing but with a 2V from my dac's line out, 10 o'clock out of the Lyr is crazy loud.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




With my LCD-2s, I keep it at about 9:30ish. My HE-6s are a different story . Usually 1-2 ish, but with the 6BZ7 tubes, 12 (as I mentioned).


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





travis-bickle said:


> Yeah i know. I'm looking for a single combination thats a good allrounder and can handle every genre, because I like a wide range of music:
> 
> jazz, pop, rock, blues, classic, hip hop, electro, world music and so on. Maybe I should mention that the combination should harmonize with the smyth realizer and of course home cinema usage.
> 
> I should start a seperate thread for that, but for now I would like to hear how the LCD-2 works with a HifiMan-EF5.


 

 I liked the LCD-2 better with the EF5 than with the Lyr but not as good as with the WA22. I have tried the HE-5 and HE-6 with the EF5 and think that the HE-500 would be an ideal match for it, as the EF5 is tuned well for the HiFiMAN cans and the power level is ideal for the HE-500. The EF5 > HE-500 would be a hard combo to beat from a price-performance standpoint.


----------



## MacedonianHero

grokit said:


> I liked the LCD-2 better with the EF5 than with the Lyr but not as good as with the WA22. I have tried the HE-5 and HE-6 with the EF5 and think that the HE-500 would be an ideal match for it, as the EF5 is tuned well for the HiFiMAN cans and the power level is ideal for the HE-500. The EF5 > HE-500 would be a hard combo to beat from a price-performance standpoint.




With the stock tubes, I can understand....but with the Genalex Gold Lions or even the NOS GE 6BZ7s, I'd take the Lyr any day of the week (including with my HE-6s). But like you, I prefer my WA22 with my LCD-2s over the Lyr (with the right tube combinations....NOS Tung-Sol 7236s, NOS Sylvania 6SN7s and an NOS Raytheon 5U4G).

But alas, as much as I appreciate my WA22, it is not an ideal HE-6 amping solution...the Lyr is much better suited. I actually am very impressed with my new GE 6BZ7s...about 20% more gain and 4 Watts sounds just great with them (HE-6s).


----------



## RedBull

Quote:


macedonianhero said:


> With the stock tubes, I can understand....but with the Genalex Gold Lions or even the NOS GE 6BZ7s, I'd take the Lyr any day of the week (including with my HE-6s). But like you, *I prefer my WA22 with my LCD-2s over the Lyr* (with the right tube combinations....NOS Tung-Sol 7236s, NOS Sylvania 6SN7s and an NOS Raytheon 5U4G).


 

 Peter, interested in your preference of WA22 over the Lyr, price aside.  Thanks


----------



## MacedonianHero

redbull said:


> Quote:
> 
> Peter, interested in your preference of WA22 over the Lyr, price aside.  Thanks




With the right tube combination, it is fabulous IMO. I did have my re-cabled Silver Dragon V3 coming back next week. I had Drew at Moon Audio rewire it to have a balanced connector (from single ended). I also purchased a balanced to single-ended adapter so that I can still use them with my Lyr easily). 

I'll report back next week how they sound fully balanced.


----------



## Windsor

Hey guys, 
   
  In my quest for a headphone-based listening setup that reveals recordings as the artist intended, the most accurate I've heard is the Lavry DA10, with audio files being fed to it via optical cable, and the LCD-2. I've been considering another amp and know that I don't need one, but would there be any obvious improvement from the amp of Lavry - which I've read is of the 'wire-with-gain' type - that would make recordings sound more natural?
   
  Many thanks.
  WM


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> With the stock tubes, I can understand....but with the Genalex Gold Lions or even the NOS GE 6BZ7s, I'd take the Lyr any day of the week (including with my HE-6s). But like you, I prefer my WA22 with my LCD-2s over the Lyr (with the right tube combinations....NOS Tung-Sol 7236s, NOS Sylvania 6SN7s and an NOS Raytheon 5U4G).
> 
> But alas, as much as I appreciate my WA22, it is not an ideal HE-6 amping solution...the Lyr is much better suited. I actually am very impressed with my new GE 6BZ7s...about 20% more gain and 4 Watts sounds just great with them (HE-6s).


 

 Totally agreed, but I was using Amprex gold pin 6922s, I never even tried the stock tubes with the Lyr. The Head-fier that bought the Amprex's from me said they sounded great though.
   
  And yes the HE-6 was a fail with the WA22, the EF5 was just as good with that headphone. I really prefer my speaker amp with the HE-6, as I have posted before the only headphone that really worked for me out of the Lyr was the K701, that was the best I have ever heard them.
   
   
  Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> With the right tube combination, it is fabulous IMO. I do have my re-cabled Silver Dragon V3 coming back next week. I had Drew at Moon Audio rewire it to have a balanced connector (from single ended). I also purchased a balanced to single-ended adapter so that I can still use them with my Lyr easily).
> 
> I'll report back next week how they sound fully balanced.


 

 Definitely, I rolled my EML 5U4G in just for kicks last night in place of the Princess and the Princess is definitely going back in to the WA22 and the EML will be up for sale (recent warranty replacement with less than 10 hours on it if anyone is interested). I would still love to try the EML 274B with my current tubes though.


----------



## adydula

Well we now have 10+ hours on the Lyr with the LCD2's.
   
  Just keeps getting better and better still with the GE 6BZ7's.
   
  After listening to many of my favorites and many demo cds, from RMAF, NY Audio Raves and Demo discs from several OEM manufacturers....I stopped proving to myself
  how great a combination of the Lyr and LCD2's are. The deep bass rifts, huge organ stuff, hot guitar stuff, female voice etc...
   
  For the last few hours I just played some 'normal' music.not the most dynamic and earth shadowing stuff...but things like Fleetwood Mac and Stevie Nix etc...
   
  I was very much lost in the music, enjoying how good mediocre stuff can sound and be enjoyed...going back to early recording and being able to hear inside the music...etc
   
  I really think the additional power reserves of the Lyr make it a wonderful marraige made in heaven....always a surprise when playing stuff...just wonderful.
   
  Think my search for my holy grail has ended for now...maybe play around with a few dacs and see where that goes...
   
  Lyr recommendation for LCD2's ....absolutley a great if not best buy.
   
  All the best
  Alex


----------



## RedBull

Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> With the right tube combination, it is fabulous IMO. I do have my re-cabled Silver Dragon V3 coming back next week. I had Drew at Moon Audio rewire it to have a balanced connector (from single ended). I also purchased a balanced to single-ended adapter so that I can still use them with my Lyr easily).
> 
> I'll report back next week how they sound fully balanced.


 

 Thanks, I'll be waiting


----------



## WarriorAnt

A while back I almost pulled the trigger on the Lyr. In fact one time I did but the website froze or something and I took it as a sign to back off.  But more than that I was and am concerned by the reviews of Lyr users. All I ever read is how much power the Lyr has and thats about it.  I haven't really seen any comments concerning any of the other aspects of this amp, most of which I find more important than just power.    I haven't seen much talk about soundstage, inner detail, resolution, imaging, soundfield depth or width, layering, harmonic detail. Just power, lots of power.  What else does this amp offer?


----------



## Kremer930

It is pretty hard to get "lost in the music" unless soundstage, imaging and texture etc are all in abundance. Jason Stoddard has always said what his priorities are as far as these goals and sorry but I don't recall them now but power is not the only goal for the Lyr. 

Orthos benefit from having more than 2 watts continuous power to help open up soundstage. Until you have listened to a higher power set up you don't know what you are missing. 

Schiit are bringing out a statement amp later this year that will be a significant step up from the Lyr in power supply, fully balanced and has some other awesome features. The RSA darkstar should even look mediocre in comparison, and I really like RSA. 

For the price of a Lyr, if you have a pair of orthos... Why not buy one?


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





kremer930 said:


> It is pretty hard to get "lost in the music" unless soundstage, imaging and texture etc are all in abundance. Jason Stoddard has always said what his priorities are as far as these goals and sorry but I don't recall them now but power is not the only goal for the Lyr.
> 
> Orthos benefit from having more than 2 watts continuous power to help open up soundstage. Until you have listened to a higher power set up you don't know what you are missing.
> 
> ...


 

 Well I'm trying to find a review that describes more than just the Lyr being a powerful amp.  I'm looking for a review that goes beyond that.  Something more descriptive and not vague about the other parameters of the Lyr besides power.


----------



## MacedonianHero

warriorant said:


> A while back I almost pulled the trigger on the Lyr. In fact one time I did but the website froze or something and I took it as a sign to back off.  But more than that I was and am concerned by the reviews of Lyr users. All I ever read is how much power the Lyr has and thats about it.  I haven't really seen any comments concerning any of the other aspects of this amp, most of which I find more important than just power.    I haven't seen much talk about soundstage, inner detail, resolution, imaging, soundfield depth or width, layering, harmonic detail. Just power, lots of power.  What else does this amp offer?




The Lyr has it all...great sound, tone, imaging, power , and all at a fantastic price. With the right tubes, it can compete with amps 2-3X it's price.


----------



## adydula

WarriorAnt...
   
  I have had my Lyr for 4 days now about 12 hours of play time...
   
  OMG this amp makes the LCD2's come alive...
   
  I have posted in other threads how much I like this amp with the LCD2's..
   
  I sold my Schiit ASGARD and SOHAii....and have no real desire now other to enjoy the wonderful pairing that this amp and LCD2's bring.
   
  I have played most all of my demo cds...those ones we all know and use to demo our stuff, from Nils Lofgren, Fanfare from Copeland, Holly Cole, Diana Krall, Nora Jones, Eva Cassidy,
  Wynton M., Sting, Allison Krauss etc, etc, etc...
   
  The soundstage and imaging are absolutley wonderful, the Lyr does not impede what you will hear....its more dependant on the actual source material..if its well recorded, mic'd and mastered it will be awesome all the away around, Imaging, soundstage, tonality, bandwith...musical etc..
   
  Piano when well done sounds so real and lifelike....Billy Barbers Shades of Grey is so sweet..
   
  I have up to 6 different recordings of several songs....and its easy to discern the differences in recording and mic'ing etc...what the recording engineer did etc....really amazing resolving capability.
   
  Having up to 6 watts RMS as a resevoir of power does not hurt the sonic capabilites of what the LCD2's can do, if anything it enhances the LCD2's abilities, design etc..
   
  Power to some equate to being able to fill up a room with sound depending on the efficiency of the transducers etc...not in this case...having the power reserve that can be tapped instantaneously with a pair of Orthos like the LCD's and others really helps (I think, my opinion) the overall presentation.
   
  Inner detail, if its on the recording you will hear it good or bad....
   
  Layering.....again if its in the source and mic'd well you will be able to hear the layers, the depth, combined with a great soundstage and imaging dependent on where the instruments are placed ....OMG "Juslang" is freaking awesome!!
   
  I listen at the 9 am position most of the time, sometimes cranking up to 10 and 10:30am on the volume control and then things just become explosive...not destructive but a WOW !!!!
  This so much like real music!!
   
  Female voices sound like they are in your head...so perfect....Alanis Morrisette..... some of here loooong vocal passages are the best I have ever heard with this amp.....to die for......
   
  What this amp offers is unlimited power compared to most other dedicated amps....CLASS A,  the ability to roll tubes (groan.....lol)...a price that is a best buy compared to most of the other great megabuck amps....a simple design, built like a brick Schiit house, dependable....its a very modern looking elegant overall package that with its real RMS watts makes for a marraige made in heaven with the LCD2's
   
  If you buy one, and dont like it...you will have no problem selling it and Jason will take it back...15 day trial...whats not to loose and YOU can decide for youself if its a keeper or a lemon!!
   
  Oh gosh what sweet lemonade this amp and phones makes!!
   
  All the best!
   
  Alex


----------



## WarriorAnt

I'm trying to make a composite of notes on which tubes will work the best with the Lyr.  But I keep getting confused.   Is there a consensus among LYR/LCD-2 users?  If so can someone post them up here?  I don't have the fortitude to go over to the LYR rolling thread and many of those folks over there are not always using the LCD-2.


----------



## adydula

Ant man...I did mucho research and got mine with the 6BZ7's...they will send you a matched set.
  Just try these..if your not happy I will buy them from you!!!
   
  You can try many, many others and get lost in tube rolling etc..
   
  I dont want that I want great sound, now and you dont have to spend megabucks on "rare" NOS tubes to get great and I mean world class sound out of your LCD2's with the Lyr...
   
  The 6BZ7's are my favorite....would not even go close to the 6N1P or 6CG7 or 6GU7...I would try the EC88c's..again get a matched pair....from a reliable source...NOT Ebay!! LOL!!
   
  Heres the post from Jason:
   
    Okay, here's the official word on 6CG7 and 6GU7, based on Mike's stash of NOS JAN Phillips and NOS RCAs, respectively. Cliff's Notes version: Mr. Scary gets the Golden Tube Ear award. He's spot-on in subjective impression of the 6CG7, and the 6GU7 is actually worse, flabby and flatulent. 
   
  If you take a look at the tube curves on the datasheet, this isn't surprising. At the Lyr's cathode voltage, these two tubes are operating in a relatively nonlinear area. Measured distortion is about 1-2% at 5V out, versus Lyr's typical 0.05%-0.1% with 6DJ8/6922/E88CC types. They're also much lower gain. Compare gains:
   
  E88CC = 10
  6BZ7 = 12
  6N1P = 13
  6CG7 = 7
  6GU7 = 6
   
  The low gain is also indicative of operating low on the curve. The overall sound is slurred, fat, and odd--the tube table radio of yore. 
   
  Bottom line: for Lyr, stick to 6DJ8s and close relatives. The 6BZ7 is actually an early relative of the 6DJ8, with higher anode voltage capability, but still good linearity at lower voltages. 
   
  Personally, if we were going to use the 6CG7/6GU7s in an amp, we'd bypass them completely and use 6SN7s, since the better geometry makes a better tube--and we'd run it with a 400Vish rail, to get it in a linear operating area. 
   
  On the other hand, the taller 6CG7s and 6GU7s were easier to pull out of the chassis, so it's not all bad!
   
  All the best!
  Alex


----------



## MacedonianHero

^^ Well said Alex.

I love the Lyr with my GE 6BZ7s....so much so, I just picked up a pair of NOS Sylvania 6BZ7s to give them a try (and have a back up). I think I prefer them slightly over my (now sold) Mullard CV2492s and find them comparable to my Genalex Gold Lion ECC88s. Though the 20% or so more gain (with the 6BZ7s) is favourable with my HE-6s.


----------



## RedBull

Quote:


macedonianhero said:


> The Lyr has it all...great sound, tone, imaging, power
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Only 2-3x times?


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> ^^ Well said Alex.
> 
> I love the Lyr with my GE 6BZ7s....so much so, I just picked up a pair of NOS Sylvania 6BZ7s to give them a try (and have a back up). I think I prefer them slightly over my (now sold) Mullard CV2492s and find them comparable to my Genalex Gold Lion ECC88s. Though the 20% or so more gain (with the 6BZ7s) is favourable with my HE-6s.


 

 Hero,  Which do you prefer the Woo WA2 or the Lyr?


----------



## MacedonianHero

redbull said:


> Quote:
> 
> Only 2-3x times?


----------



## MacedonianHero

warriorant said:


> Hero,  Which do you prefer the Woo WA2 or the Lyr?




I preferred the Lyr with the Genalex Gold Lions or even stock NOS GE 6BZ7s. I didn't care for the JJ tubes... a bit dry IMO. My WA2 with upgraded tubes cost $1400ish and the Lyr with the Genalex Gold Lions cost about $550ish....that would be approx. 2.5x a cost difference. 

The WA2 sounded great with the LCD-2s, don't get me wrong...but it lacked the dynamics and attack of the Lyr. The bass with the Lyr was better controlled and the most improvement was with regards to the treble....some have found it a bit too far back in the sound stage with the LCD-2s. The Lyr brought that more forward without being bright in any way.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





adydula said:


> Ant man...I did mucho research and got mine with the 6BZ7's...they will send you a matched set.
> Just try these..if your not happy I will buy them from you!!!
> 
> You can try many, many others and get lost in tube rolling etc..
> ...


 

 Thanks for the info.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> I preferred the Lyr with the Genalex Gold Lions or even stock NOS GE 6BZ7s. I didn't care for the JJ tubes... a bit dry IMO. My WA2 with upgraded tubes cost $1400ish and the Lyr with the Genalex Gold Lions cost about $550ish....that would be approx. 2.5x a cost difference.
> 
> The WA2 sounded great with the LCD-2s, don't get me wrong...but it lacked the dynamics and attack of the Lyr. The bass with the Lyr was better controlled and the most improvement was with regards to the treble....some have found it a bit too far back in the sound stage with the LCD-2s. The Lyr brought that more forward without being bright in any way.


 
  Interesting about the Lyr and the treble.  I wonder how that same combo will fare with the LCD-2 r.'s newly found upper extension.


----------



## adydula

Ant,
   
  I have the Rev2's...and the bass is just so NICE!!
   
  The treble is accurate, if its there you hear it if its not well done it will be not well done...
   
  These cans are so flat. accurate and neutral....
   
  I was thinking of the Woo also its a good amp but for the cost, you just cant get any better in my humble 62 yr old opinion...
   
  I hate to stop listening with these cans and this amp....u get lost in the music over and over...
   
  I did have a set of AKG 702 that the soundstage was very nice...but what is missing there it they were so analytical and 'dry'....
   
  The musicality of this combination is world class.....
   
  Good luck with your choice!!
   
  Alex


----------



## WarriorAnt

I didn't realize Schiit was putting out a balanced amp soon so now the choice has varied again.  I'm waiting until summers end before I make a desicion.  The tube amp will be my secondary amp.  The Woo WA2 is of great interest because it can be used as a pre amp also.  Jason says the Lyr can do that also but I have had no feedback from anyone about that function.  Perhaps MacedonianHero has used the Lyr as a preamp?  I know you said you used the WA2 preamp function in one of your setups.


----------



## adydula

I will try to use the Lyr as a preamp in the next few days with a Van Alstine Ultravalve Amp....will report back..
   
  Alex


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





adydula said:


> Ant man...I did mucho research and got mine with the 6BZ7's...they will send you a matched set.
> 
> All the best!
> Alex


 

 Alex, When you say "They will send you a set" do you mean Schiit?  i looked over at the their site and didn't see anything.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





adydula said:


> I will try to use the Lyr as a preamp in the next few days with a Van Alstine Ultravalve Amp....will report back..
> 
> Alex


 
  Thanks.   I'm planning on using something with a small amp and a small pair of high end monitors.


----------



## Argo Duck

+1! I'd like to know who "they" is too Alex - TIA
  Quote: 





warriorant said:


> Alex, When you say "They will send you a set" do you mean Schiit?  i looked over at the their site and didn't see anything.


----------



## Kremer930

I use my Lyr pre outs to a rotel preamp and then to a rotel power amp. It works great and adds the tube flavour to my speaker rig. Saves having to re route my DAC line out too since I only have one DAC. 

I normally set the volume around 11am on the Lyr.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





argo duck said:


> +1! I'd like to know who "they" is too Alex - TIA


 

 I suspect he's talking about Schiit.  You can buy a matched pair for 20 bux and you can order the Lyr fitted with the GE 6BZ7s stock.


----------



## olor1n

Lol, you may want to tone it down a bit Alex. The Lyr is good with the rev.2 but it's not THAT good!
   
  For those who've heard the LCD-2 through a number of systems; does the LCD-2 benefit greatly when patched into a balanced setup?


----------



## Argo Duck

Thanks kwkarth! Warrior Ant, I just refreshed page and they're listed on Schiit's site as one of three tube options for the Lyr
  Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> I suspect he's talking about Schiit.  You can buy a matched pair for 20 bux and you can order the Lyr fitted with the GE 6BZ7s stock.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





olor1n said:


> Lol, you may want to tone it down a bit Alex. The Lyr is good with the rev.2 but it's not THAT good!
> 
> For those who've heard the LCD-2 through a number of systems; does the Lyr benefit greatly when patched into a balanced setup?


 
   
  I tried the Lyr out of my balanced DAC's SE outputs, it wasn't near as good with the LCD-2 as my WA22 is. Is that what you mean by patched into a balanced setup?


----------



## K3cT

I think my main beef with the Lyr is it's not that transparent sounding, at least when compared to the Burson HA160. It's a lot more powerful especially in the bass (lower mid area) but I do seem to prefer the Burson with the LCD2. Both amplifiers are warm-ish sounding but the Burson is less warm overall, I have no problem with warmth but when paired with something like the LCD2, excessive warmth will rob too much from the clarity. I suppose if you prefer that extra OOMPH, bass and thickness the Lyr will be a great match but if you prefer technicalities, the Burson should be slightly better. 
   
  The Beta22 of course is in another playing field altogether but I don't like comparing DIY and commercial entities.


----------



## olor1n

Sorry, I meant the LCD-2 from a balanced rig.


----------



## adydula

"They = Schiit......"
   
  Tone it down!!!
   
  Hahahahahahah! No Way!!
   
  Rev 2's.....vs Rev 1's.....nice there 9000 posts on this debate....
   
  R1 or R2 they both are great.....way tooo much time on minute differences rathere than enjoying the music...
   
  But hey its your time etc...
   
  I would like to see you A/B blind test rev 1 and rev 2's....and see how many times you really can tell the difference...
   
  Maybe you can, maybe you cant...
   
  Again...world class sound, for a decent price point, 5 yr warranty!!...
   
  Call me Mr. Fanboy....but I did sell the ASGARD...hmmmmm.
   
  Not transparent sounding....how about very balanced, when you play tracks with deep bass, vocals, intstruments you get a very balanced representation...the bass doest affect the other frequency range....absolutley amazing to me.
   
  Anyway...my search is over!! Music Time!!!
   
  Preamp test tonight!
   
  All the best!!
   
  Oh did i say I really like my Lyr!!!!
   
  Alex





   
   
  Note: Thde Burson HA160 was on my list with the Lyr...after much internal debate etc....I decided on the Lyr..still would like to actually hear a burson with the LCD2's..maybe someday if we win the lottery and have the spare change lying around...LOL


----------



## Shubar

I had the same predicament, was not sure which amp to get Lyr or the Burson seeing both had favorable reviews. Ended up ordering the Schiit Lyr moments ago, trying tubes and also cheaper 
   
  Hope it all works out ^^


----------



## JIGF

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> ...  The Woo WA2 is of great interest because it can be used as a pre amp also.  Jason says the Lyr can do that also but I have had no feedback from anyone about that function.  Perhaps MacedonianHero has used the Lyr as a preamp?  I know you said you used the WA2 preamp function in one of your setups.


 

 There is some talk about the preamp here.


----------



## adydula

Shubar,
   
  Once you get the Lyr and start enjoying the music you will soon forget what it is that you think you dont have!!
   
  Enjoy!
  Alex


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





adydula said:


> "They = Schiit......"
> 
> Tone it down!!!
> 
> ...


 
  To my ears, the Burson sounded fairly powerful and tuneful with the LCD-2, but the soundstage was flat, and two dimensional.  Certainly the Lyr has far more power than the Burson, but more importantly, can be "tuned" to better synergize with the rest of your system via tube rolling.  I feel the GE 6BZ7 is a great place to start, and for many, will be the last tube you need to try as well.


----------



## USAudio

(moved to tube-rolling thread)


----------



## WarriorAnt

So now it begs the question.  Which amps is more transparent, the Lyr or the woo WA2?


----------



## dagothur

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> So now it begs the question.  Which amps is more transparent, the Lyr or the woo WA2?


 

 The WA2 has exposed tubes, so I guess it's technically more transparent.


----------



## Wedge

I don't see how the WA-2 could be transparent compared against a Lyr.  I didn't own the WA-2 but I did own the WA-22, and by no means to me was it a transparent, it was Lush, and I'm told the WA-2 is not too far from the WA-22 in terms of Lushness.  The Lyr to me has a little bit of a thickness in the lower midrange with the LCD-2 which I didn't particularly love for pianos.  My friends love the Lyr, and I think its a great amp, but it is quite different from the Woo line up IMO, of which I have owned 2 and still own a WA-5.  You will have to take this with a grain of salt, because I haven't heard the WA-2 myself.


----------



## MacedonianHero

warriorant said:


> I didn't realize Schiit was putting out a balanced amp soon so now the choice has varied again.  I'm waiting until summers end before I make a desicion.  The tube amp will be my secondary amp.  The Woo WA2 is of great interest because it can be used as a pre amp also.  Jason says the Lyr can do that also but I have had no feedback from anyone about that function.  *Perhaps MacedonianHero has used the Lyr as a preamp? * I know you said you used the WA2 preamp function in one of your setups.




Funny you should ask...yes I have. It works really well as a preamp in my home theater rig....I think I slightly preferred the WA2 as a preamp, but this is from memory, so you can take that with a grain of salt. With the LCD-2s and HE-6s, I'd take the Lyr over the WA2 any day of the week. As a preamp, both work very well, with a slight nod to the WA2.

With my T1s or HD800s, the WA2 is the better amping solution IMHO.


----------



## MacedonianHero

kwkarth said:


> To my ears, the Burson sounded fairly powerful and tuneful with the LCD-2, but the soundstage was flat, and two dimensional.  Certainly the Lyr has far more power than the Burson, b*ut more importantly, can be "tuned" to better synergize with the rest of your system via tube rolling. * I feel the GE 6BZ7 is a great place to start, and for many, will be the last tube you need to try as well.




Very well stated Kevin...my thoughts mirror yours 100%.



warriorant said:


> So now it begs the question.  Which amps is more transparent, the Lyr or the woo WA2?




Depends on the headphones.


----------



## johnwmclean

[size=medium][size=13.0px]IMO the LCD-2 has tone and warmth in spades, I really cannot imagine any tube amp would be of benefit, unless your source is harsh and in need of smoothing.
 [/size][/size]
  [size=medium][size=13.0px]The LCD-2 driven by great solid state is something to behold, nothing I’ve heard comes close. Just ensure your source is up to the task.
 [/size][/size]


----------



## olor1n

Quote: 





johnwmclean said:


> [size=medium][size=13.0px]IMO the LCD-2 has tone and warmth in spades, I really cannot imagine any tube amp would be of benefit, unless your source is harsh and in need of smoothing.
> [/size][/size]
> [size=medium][size=13.0px]The LCD-2 driven by great solid state is something to behold, nothing I’ve heard comes close. Just ensure your source is up to the task.
> [/size][/size]


 


  This is what I'm beginning to suspect the more I listen to the rev.2.


----------



## K3cT

Quote: 





johnwmclean said:


> [size=medium][size=13.0px]IMO the LCD-2 has tone and warmth in spades, I really cannot imagine any tube amp would be of benefit, unless your source is harsh and in need of smoothing.
> [/size][/size]
> [size=medium][size=13.0px]The LCD-2 driven by great solid state is something to behold, nothing I’ve heard comes close. Just ensure your source is up to the task.
> [/size][/size]


 
   
   
  I also believe that solid-state is the way to go for the LCD2. I had compared the EHHA with the Beta22 and in terms of finesse and control, the latter is simply unsurpassable.


----------



## Kremer930

I dont think that you can say that solid state is analytical and tube is musical. That is over simplifying the decision IMO. Plus....the Lyr is a hybrid.


----------



## johnwmclean

Quote: 





k3ct said:


> I also believe that solid-state is the way to go for the LCD2. I had compared the EHHA with the Beta22 and in terms of finesse and control, the latter is simply unsurpassable.


 

 Ditto. Both great amps, but pairing is key. When the HD800’s was in my inventory for 2 years the EHHA was my choice of amp. With the LCD-2’s the Beta22 is the better amp.


----------



## RedBull

Quote:


johnwmclean said:


> [size=medium]IMO the LCD-2 has tone and warmth in spades, I really cannot imagine any tube amp would be of benefit, unless your source is harsh and in need of smoothing.
> [/size]
> [size=medium]The LCD-2 driven by great solid state is something to behold, nothing I’ve heard comes close. Just ensure your source is up to the task.
> [/size]


 

 I don't think tube amps is always identical to smooth.  My DV337 was producing more treble quantity than my Lehmann BCL actually, so I think it really depends on the amp design.


----------



## RedBull

Has anyone vintage lover tried this for LCD-2?  Do you think it's worth trying?  Skylab maybe can give some suggestions 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  I rely more and more to Skylab nowadays 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Hitachi stereo solid state intergrated amplifier model HA330 - Made in Japan


----------



## [OverDrive]

How to see the Little Dot VI+ combined to the LCD-2?
   
http://www.littledot.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=831&sid=c25b1340363aa250cb904dbf7d936a26


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





redbull said:


> Has anyone vintage lover tried this for LCD-2?  Do you think it's worth trying?  Skylab maybe can give some suggestions
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


  Certainly worth a try!  Hitachi made some nice stuff back in the day.  Can you try it before you buy it?


----------



## RedBull

Yeah, I read Hitachi made nice amps around 1970 era.
   
  Ok, I will contact the seller and ask if I can try first.  It's around $168, I'll try to get lower price, fingers crossed


----------



## johnwmclean

Before plugging your loved phones into a circa 1970 amp remember to check the dc offset.


----------



## johnwmclean

Quote: 





redbull said:


> Quote:
> 
> I don't think tube amps is always identical to smooth.  My DV337 was producing more treble quantity than my Lehmann BCL actually, so I think it really depends on the amp design.


 

  Maybe my choice of words wasn’t the best. I think we can all agree that tubes can tailer a sound - to a degree and can be used to mask upstream components that need a little added harmonic tone.


----------



## sachu

Quote: 





k3ct said:


> I also believe that solid-state is the way to go for the LCD2. I had compared the EHHA with the Beta22 and in terms of finesse and control, the latter is simply unsurpassable.


 

 One's perceptions are rather too subjective to be making too broad statements like that.  
   
  Cause i would claim just the opposite, but knowing that people's opinions are just that, opinions. It doesn't take away from the fact that every component in your system is dependent on making that system work favorably or not. 
   
  The issue it seems is that you guys are tooling about on the tube v/s SS amp question. Saying SS is better are full of crap and vice versa.
   
  I've heard both tube, SS and hybrid amps work well with the same headphone in different systems.
   
  Orthos demand a couple of things more from an amplifier than a normal voice coil driver headphone, which is slew rate and current. The latter being more prominent with enough headroom when required. 
   
  If your tube amp has the ability to supply that current directly, great, if not you will be disappointed. 
   
   
  So far, the best amps I have heard the LCD-2 with both use tubes.
   
  One is the Balancing Act and the other is the Cavalli Liquid Fire. 
   
  I would include the Cavalli Stacker 2 to that list (specifically the one that Ethan/equus has that i built), yet another tube hybrid amp.  
   
  So go figure.


----------



## kwkarth

Belly buttons...opinions...everybody has at least one of each.


----------



## sachu

yeah..i didn't mention taht Kevin.


----------



## wower

What are the SS options for the LCD2 in the $750~1k zone? Though I'll admit I'm still lusting after the Decware Mini Torii.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Give the  Violectric V200 a look


----------



## kwkarth

If you can find one, the GCHA by PS-Audio works very nicely with the LCD-2s.
   
  Here ya go:
http://www.musicdirect.com/p-7416-ps-audio-gcha-headphone-amp.aspx


----------



## KingStyles

Quote: 





> Maybe my choice of words wasn’t the best. I think we can all agree that tubes can tailer a sound - to a degree and can be used to mask upstream components that need a little added harmonic tone.


 
  They can also be just as revealing and transparent as a ss amp. Mine will show the flaws that are upstream. Tubes can allow an individual to tailor there sound to mask flaws upstream if that is what they are looking for.
   
   
  Quote: 





> I've heard both tube, SS and hybrid amps work well with the same headphone in different systems.
> 
> Orthos demand a couple of things more from an amplifier than a normal voice coil driver headphone, which is slew rate and current. The latter being more prominent with enough headroom when required.
> 
> ...


 
  You probably could add the RWA Isabellina HPA which also uses tubes now and sounds great. A little colored but a good choice for an all in one solution.


----------



## RedBull

Quote:


johnwmclean said:


> Maybe my choice of words wasn’t the best. I think we can all agree that tubes can tailer a sound - to a degree and can be used to mask upstream components that need a little added harmonic tone.


 

 Yeah, this time I agree with you, at times I could even call tube amps are 'generally' more colored, I know 'colored' is a BAD word in head-fi, I could possibly get murdered just for saying one  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





redbull said:


> Quote:
> 
> Yeah, this time I agree with you, at times I could even call tube amps are '*generally*' more colored, I know 'colored' is a BAD word in head-fi, I could possibly get murdered just for saying one
> 
> ...


 
  I think "generally" is a good way to put it.  There are few absolutes in this game.


----------



## sachu

Quote: 





johnwmclean said:


> Maybe my choice of words wasn’t the best. I think we can all agree that tubes can tailer a sound - to a degree and can be used to mask upstream components that need a little added harmonic tone.


 

 what..are you meaning to suggest choice of devices in a solid state amp won't make a difference..that's just a completely false statement to make.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





sachu said:


> what..are you meaning to suggest choice of devices in a solid state amp won't make a difference..that's just a completely false statement to make.


 
  Yes, any amp, tube based or SS based can be designed to be euphonic, lush, colored, or analytical, and sterile.


----------



## KingStyles

Quote: 





> Yes, any amp, tube based or SS based can be designed to be euphonic, lush, colored, or analytical, and sterile.


 
  Agreed


----------



## WarriorAnt

Straighten out your front end and you won't have to compensate down the line.


----------



## Wedge

The part selection can drive the outcome as well.  So in the case of tube amps, many owners will roll tubes to get the sound to the way they want it to sound.  For solid state amps that decision is ultimately made by the designer in his choice of one transistor over another, etc.  I personally think that the topology has the most impact on the sound characteristics.  Really though in all this I still think the greatest impact to the end sound comes from the transducers themselves.  A bright phone will pretty much always be a bright phone, etc.  Here I'll get shot by the folks who argue that source components come first.  So in the case of the LCD-2, I find that it is the type of phone that can sound quite good with a large variety of amplifiers, other phones like HD-800s and HE-6s don't sound as good on such a wide variety.  I personally keep a tube somewhere in my chain, out of personal preference.


----------



## MacedonianHero

sachu said:


> what..are you meaning to suggest choice of devices in a solid state amp won't make a difference..that's just a completely false statement to make.






kwkarth said:


> Yes, any amp, tube based or SS based can be designed to be euphonic, lush, colored, or analytical, and sterile.




Well stated gentlemen...


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





wedge said:


> The part selection can drive the outcome as well.  So in the case of tube amps, many owners will roll tubes to get the sound to the way they want it to sound.  For solid state amps that decision is ultimately made by the designer in his choice of one transistor over another, etc.  I personally think that the topology has the most impact on the sound characteristics.  Really though in all this I still think the greatest impact to the end sound comes from the transducers themselves.  A bright phone will pretty much always be a bright phone, etc.  Here I'll get shot by the folks who argue that source components come first.  So in the case of the LCD-2, I find that it is the type of phone that can sound quite good with a large variety of amplifiers, other phones like HD-800s and HE-6s don't sound as good on such a wide variety.  I personally keep a tube somewhere in my chain, out of personal preference.


 

 How's the 800 sounding?


----------



## johnwmclean

Quote: 





sachu said:


> what..are you meaning to suggest choice of devices in a solid state amp won't make a difference..that's just a completely false statement to make.


 

 No not my suggestion at all how did you come to that conclusion?


----------



## Wedge

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> How's the 800 sounding?


 


  It's not my favorite overall sound.  I do enjoy the mids on these headphones, but I find them a little bass light, and a little treble heavier than I like.  I would say that my preference is still with the LCD-2, to me I find it to be more natural sounding.


----------



## adydula

Well we have close to 20 hours on the Lyr and I still highly recommend it for an excellent head amp for the LCD2's.
   
  I was drooling and reading the reviews on the new Cavalli Liquid Fire Hybrid amp...for the price it ought to be good....but I do look at the reviewers choice of music selections and have some of the choices and just had to and play them to see how these sound to me on the Lyr and LCDs....by the way I did build a Cavalli SOHA ii Hydribd amp and prefered it to the Schiit ASGARD with the LCD2's (rev 2)....it wasnt that it was bad...just the overall presentation and sound was better to me with the SHOAii.
   
  I have a great variety of demo cd's that are used by speaker and electronics manufacturers as well as several from NY Audio Rave sessions, RMAF, Capital Area Audiofest etc. Selecting stellar music is not a issue here...i think I have way too much of this stuff....lol
   
  I let the Lyr warm up for 30 minutes or so, played several familiar favorites and then started to critically listen to some of the stuff used in the review for the Liquid Fire amp..well I was very surprised how well the Lyr does....sure wish I had the other amp around to really compare....but...
   
  Playing The Decemberists "Calimity" the reviewer stated:
   
  "Indicating the power and control of the amp, the bass drum on "Calamity Song" from The Decembrists _The King is Dead_ [Capitol], was solid and well defined. The acoustic guitar on the track was clear as well, though the top-end snap might have been a little rounded-off. .......
   
  I played this same song...several times at several volume settings...this is important to note when comparing...it can and will make things sound very different...do you ever go to a concert and tell the band to play softly??? With this song...played at a decent volume the Lyr and LCD2's produce the bass drum a 10 out of a 10 to me...absolutley astounding...Between 9:30 and 10:30 am on the LYR volume control this song becomes very lifelike and explosive drums...well controlled, well defined, and when the other instruments come in and the vocals...jolly gee batman....what a clear awesome persentation and soundstage....the drum kick is there, the bass sounds like well ..yes wonderful as well...I can not believe it can get awhole lot better than this....even with $3000 amps.. The guitar did not sound rolled off to me at all.
   
  Playing Eric Claptons "Unplugged" Live  the "Layla" cut. played loud...makes you there at the concert...just freaking awesome....I owe this to having the ample power to provide what is needed to make the LCD2's really sing.
   
  Yes you can play the LCD's softly and they sound very good, you hear the details etc...but to experience what you hear at a concert or an intimate live performance the volume needs a little cranking up....I am glad that the Audeze folks test the LCD2's with very high amplitude signals....with less cans you might worry about damaging these, but they can take a lot of volume...I never got to a point where I thought I was damaging my ears, and never go beyond the 10:30 am or so position...
   
  So if you think your LCD2  and Amp are a little 'wimpy' try a Lyr...it can rival amps costing much more in price.....again you dont need to crank up to crazy loud volumes, but the cans will take it....and sound so, so awesome.
   
  With vocals like a Norah Jones or Eva Cassidy, Playing as loud as with the Eric Clapton cd. its not necessary to me to get a realistic live intimate performance...9:30 on the Lyr is sufficient to hear their wondeful vocals....omg is ot nice...
   
  I am selling my SOHAii, only becaues its been eclisped by the overll capabilites of the Lyr.
   
  I am thinking of building a B22, 3 card solution (active ground) being a electronics engineer etc...buiding, soldering etc is not a problem and its therapy...I almost started this B22 project and a Pete Millet amp several times but kept thinking of this Lyr amp and it wonderul 6 watts of RMS power reserve....and I am not in the least sorry I made this choice...the Lyr is a keeper...for the price and what it does with my LCDs for $449....is a NO Brainer...
   
  All the best
  Alex


----------



## KingStyles

Nice impressions. It is a great little amp for the money. I am glad you find it to your liking.
   
  One thing I have learned with clarity is it is hard to imagine it being any clearer unless you have heard a setup that is clearer. I have found out over the past couple of months of tweaking my setup that I thought was as clear as it could get, it wasnt. I did several improvements that lifted a layer of smog (sorry, I am in LA at the moment and that term seemed appropriate even though it is not an audio term) each time allowing a clarity, blackness, layering of stage that I didnt think possible. You dont know it is there until you hear it not there is what I am trying to say.


----------



## Argo Duck

Great impressions and comparisons Alex. As well, good point about level settings. Thanks!!
   
  Is your Lyr in standard kit - E88CC tubes?


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> Straighten out your front end and you won't have to compensate down the line.


 
  This is good, no, great advice!


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





kingstyles said:


> Nice impressions. It is a great little amp for the money. I am glad you find it to your liking.
> 
> One thing I have learned with clarity is it is hard to imagine it being any clearer unless you have heard a setup that is clearer. I have found out over the past couple of months of tweaking my setup that I thought was as clear as it could get, it wasnt. I did several improvements that lifted a layer of smog (sorry, I am in LA at the moment and that term seemed appropriate even though it is not an audio term) each time allowing a clarity, blackness, layering of stage that I didnt think possible. You dont know it is there until you hear it not there is what I am trying to say.


 
  I thought "SMOG" was an audio term?  Sonically Muffling Obfuscatory Grunge, no?


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





adydula said:


> Well we have close to 20 hours on the Lyr and I still highly recommend it for an excellent head amp for the LCD2's.
> 
> I was drooling and reading the reviews on the new Cavalli Liquid Fire Hybrid amp...for the price it ought to be good....but I do look at the reviewers choice of music selections and have some of the choices and just had to and play them to see how these sound to me on the Lyr and LCDs....by the way I did build a Cavalli SOHA ii Hydribd amp and prefered it to the Schiit ASGARD with the LCD2's (rev 2)....it wasnt that it was bad...just the overall presentation and sound was better to me with the SHOAii.
> 
> ...


 
  I'm glad you like it!  Nice comments too!  This is a great amp!


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





kingstyles said:


> Nice impressions. It is a great little amp for the money. I am glad you find it to your liking.
> 
> One thing I have learned with clarity is it is hard to imagine it being any clearer unless you have heard a setup that is clearer. I have found out over the past couple of months of tweaking my setup that I thought was as clear as it could get, it wasnt. I did several improvements that lifted a layer of smog (sorry, I am in LA at the moment and that term seemed appropriate even though it is not an audio term) each time allowing a clarity, blackness, layering of stage that I didnt think possible. You dont know it is there until you hear it not there is what I am trying to say.


 

 Agreed.


----------



## sachu

Quote: 





adydula said:


> I let the Lyr warm up for 30 minutes or so, played several familiar favorites and then started to critically listen to some of the stuff used in the review for the Liquid Fire amp..well I was very surprised how well the Lyr does....sure wish I had the other amp around to really compare....but...


 
   
   
  Since my earlier post was deleted without any provocation, I'll say it again.
   
  Cool you like your amp dude...but don't get carried away with your embellishments and extolling on the performance of the Lyr. 
   
  Trying to compare the Lyr to the Cavalli Liquid Fire is laughable to me. Not even in the same ball park. If you don't think it could get any better..your wallet will say a prayer and your ears will be none the wiser.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





sachu said:


> Since my earlier post was deleted without any provocation, I'll say it again.
> 
> Cool you like your amp dude...but don't get carried away with your embellishments and extolling on the performance of the Lyr.
> 
> Trying to compare the Lyr to the Cavalli Liquid Fire is laughable to me. Not even in the same ball park. If you don't think it could get any better..your wallet will say a prayer and your ears will be none the wiser.


 
  Sachu,
  Your opinion is just as valuable as that of Alex, but not more so.


----------



## KingStyles

To a deaf man, all amps are created equal. It all depends on what you hear and how well trained your ears are. To some, they may not find a lot of differences in the LF and the lyr. There is nothing wrong with enthusiasm. We have learned to take every review  with a grain of salt..... hopefully. If it cant get any better for him, congratulate him  that he can be satisfied without going broke. Sometimes that is understated.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





kingstyles said:


> To a deaf man, all amps are created equal. It all depends on what you hear and how well trained your ears are. To some, they may not find a lot of differences in the LF and the lyr. There is nothing wrong with enthusiasm. We have learned to take every review  with a grain of salt..... hopefully. If it cant get any better for him, congratulate him  that he can be satisfied without going broke. Sometimes that is understated.


 
  Recognizing differences is one thing, but denigrating another's opinion is not cool.


----------



## adydula

sachu,
   
  I appreciate being called a 'dude'.....guess I am not in your league...and thanks to kwkarth for at least stating that my experience and opinion is as valid as yours.
   
  Your quite correct about being in the ballpark...$449 vs $3200....yup not even in the same ballpark..
   
  It seems like to some if you dont have the megabuck stuff you cant enjoy world class audio....I disagree, there is the knee of the curve where you have to spend so much more money to get the last few percent out of a system.
   
  This thread is about Amp recommendations for the LCD2's.
   
  I can highly recommend the Lyr with the 6BZ7's whole heartedly...an affordable world class product...that sounds wonderful.
   
  I never have heard the Liquid Fire, probably never will but if its as good as the Lyr...and you can afford it ...you go boy!!
   
  It reminds me when i drive my lowly Corvette Z06 to a car meet and the Ferarri guys look the other way....what can I say...until we get on a racetrack!!
   
  Anyway no harm intended, I did say that if i win the lottery someday I would have a Liquid Fire to see if its worth the $3200 -$449 difference?
   
  Maybe I can get someone to send me one for a review??? (big smile!!!).
   
  Hey guys ...its your money...and i can respect 'all' of your opinions and I will never call any of you 'dudes'!!
   
  Back to work
  All the best
  Alex


----------



## KingStyles

Agreed. Everyone's opinion is appreciated and shouldnt be devalued.


----------



## sachu

No one is denigrating anyone's opinion.


----------



## adydula

Yup at 62 yrs I am thinking of it....or maybe having a line like 'get some thunder in your pants' is showing your age...
   
  Alex


----------



## WarriorAnt

I have not heard the Lyr or the Liquid fire yet but one thing refreshing about the Lyr is the price.  I think Schiit is being far more honest about the real cost and price of a product than a lot of other manufacturers and they pass this honesty down to their customers.  For this very reason I might buy the Lyr.


----------



## adydula

Hey I can understand the passion that is put into some of this stuff and the long hours, work and testing..been doing this most of my adult engineering life...
   
  Not saying the Liquid Fire is at all bad...from all aspects it sounds like its a stellar amp!!!
   
  The facts are it is a $2,800 soon to be $3,200 amp....
   
  If its that much better great go for it....and please share your experiences as well..
   
  I was using part of the review to show that you can use the same demo material, play it on your stuff and see how great it sounds to you...good or bad...
   
  On the Lyr this cut is 'stellar' to me, deaf or not.....
   
  Good audio does not have to come at mega-buck cost.....and good audio can be had at stellar prices as well..
   
  Its your money....
   
  Back to the music and what really counts!!
   
  All the best..
  Alex
  "aging well"


----------



## runeight

Hello folks, I hope you won't mind a reply from me here.
   
  I believe that there are lots of good headphone amps made by lots of talented people. Each designer/manufacturer makes a choice about what they want to offer and at what price. Obviously so. Headphone amps range from less than $100 to $10,000 and each buyer makes a choice as to what he wants and what works for him. There is no right or wrong in these choices, only people making purchasing choices based on their interests, requirements, and they way the like their music.
   
  There are a number of people, over the years, who have been interested enough to prototype some of my amp designs. Many of these protos have made their way into the six or seven DIY amps that people are still building and/or listening to. I have appreciated all the time these individuals have spent on these prototypes.
   
  BUT, please remember that, while everyone is entitled to an opinion and may have his own way of expressing it, opinions that are not offered by me don't reflect what I think or do with regard to the new CA products and the other great headphone products out in the marketplace.
   
  I believe that we should enjoy all of our amps because they all have something good to offer and I appreciate the fact that, these days, there is lots to choose from.


----------



## mangler

I thought I might throw in my two cents since I've owned both the Lyr and the Liquid Fire. First, when I only owned the Lyr I also thought that it would be hard for the Liquid Fire to sound much better, and that maybe the rave reviews of the Liquid Fire were all hype. I definitely had reservations about buying the Liquid Fire, but I bit the bullet because I knew I could sell it if I didn't like it. So, I thought, why not check out the Liquid Fire?
   
  After my LF arrived I did several side-by-side comparisons between the Lyr and Liquid Fire. To tell you the truth, I wanted the Lyr to be as good as the Liquid Fire, because I could definitely use that $2750 elsewhere. However, to my amazement, the Liquid Fire bested the Lyr in all categories that matter to me. Everything is much clearer (by comparison, there is definitely a layer of "smog" with the Lyr), transients hit harder, the soundstage is much wider (by comparison, the LCD2s sound closed in with the Lyr), there is more air between the instruments, the background is totally black, and the bass is deep and punchy. In short, the LF makes you feel like you're being surrounded by powerful live music, while the Lyr makes the music sound powerful but more in-your-head. For me, that sensation of being surrounded by live music (no easy task on headphones), is one of the key things that makes the Liquid Fire so special. 
   
  So was the Liquid Fire worth the extra dough? For me, yes, mostly because I now have an amp that makes me stop in my tracks and pay attention to the music, not the equipment. Plus, the LF has two outputs, so I can drive high and low impedance headphones, so I can use it to power both my LCD2s and my Sennheiser HD590 (the latter of which doesn't really need amplification but none the less sound so sweet on the LF). In contrast, the Lyr is primarily designed for high impedance headphones or orthodynamics, so its application is a bit more limited. Long story short, I'm very happy I drank the Kool Aid and bought the LF; I know I'll have it for years to come, and, best of all, I no longer feel the need to upgrade my system  
   
  While I undoubtedly prefer the LF, I am by no means Schiiting on the Lyr (sorry, it's corny, but I couldn't resist). I truly believe that the Lyr is an excellent amp, and it does take the LCD2s to a new level (at least compared to using my old Bellari HA-540). Plus, for the LCD2s, the Lyr probably is one of the best values and options out there. I loved mine while I had it (especially with the 6N1P tubes), and I only sold it to pay for the Liquid Fire. Amps more expensive than the Lyr, like the Liquid Fire, are almost certainly in the area of diminishing returns, BUT those subtleties you do get add up to create a profound and engaging listening experience, one that takes you somewhere the Lyr cannot (IMO). 
   
  The above is just my humble opinion. I'm certainly not suggesting that everyone go and sell off their Lyr to get a Liquid Fire; the Lyr is still an excellent, fun (i.e. lots of tube-rolling options), and ridiculously affordable way to drive your LCD2s. But, if you get the chance, go to a meet or store, make your own comparisons, and come to your own conclusions. Maybe you will decide the Lyr does it for you, and if so, more power to you; your wallet will be much happier  Or, like me, you may decide the Liquid Fire is an investment worth making, as it will reward you for years to come.


----------



## TheWuss

great posts, runeight and mangler.


----------



## KingStyles

Quote: 





> I thought I might throw in my two cents since I've owned both the Lyr and the Liquid Fire. First, when I only owned the Lyr I also thought that it would be hard for the Liquid Fire to sound much better, and that maybe the rave reviews of the Liquid Fire were all hype. I definitely had reservations about buying the Liquid Fire, but I bit the bullet because the first run was $500 less, and I knew I could sell it if I didn't like it. So, I thought, why not check out the Liquid Fire?
> 
> After my LF arrived I did several side-by-side comparisons between the Lyr and Liquid Fire. To tell you the truth, I wanted the Lyr to be as good as the Liquid Fire, because I could definitely use that $2750 elsewhere. However, to my amazement, the Liquid Fire bested the Lyr in all categories that matter to me. Everything is much clearer (by comparison, there is definitely a layer of "smog" with the Lyr), transients hit harder, the soundstage is much wider (by comparison, the LCD2s sound closed in with the Lyr), there is more air between the instruments, the background is totally black, and the bass is deep and punchy. In short, the LF makes you feel like you're being surrounded by powerful live music, while the Lyr makes the music sound powerful but more in-your-head. For me, that sensation of being surrounded by live music (no easy task on headphones), is one of the key things that makes the Liquid Fire so special.
> 
> ...


 
  Very well stated. I agree with he differences and that they are both great amps at there price point.


----------



## sachu

Welp, goes to show i can't write for crap!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
   
  great posts AC and mangler.


----------



## adydula

Thanks for the input!!
   
  I look forward to hearing the Liquid Fire someday and deciding for myself how good it is...
   
  Its good to get postive feedback on this and 'all' the other amps out there...
   
  All the best and good listening to all!!
   
  Alex


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





kingstyles said:


> Very well stated. I agree with he differences and that they are both great amps at there price point.


 
  This I am not convinced about.


----------



## Paul Meakin

I think I actually owned one of those. If not, the one I had looked virtually identical. It didn't last that long though, being replaced by one of these, which was far superior.  The same company is now known as Arcam.
   




  Quote: 





redbull said:


> Has anyone vintage lover tried this for LCD-2?  Do you think it's worth trying?  Skylab maybe can give some suggestions
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Equus

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> This I am not convinced about.


 

 I don't think anyone is trying to convince you.  It's just a matter of opinion.  Having heard both the Lyr and the Liquid Fire, I'm also in agreement with mangler and Kingstyles.  I think we can agree that we all are entitled to our opinions and tastes, so let's just revel in the plethora of options available to us nowadays and leave it at that.


----------



## KingStyles

Whats not to believe? The LF or the Lyr?


----------



## johnwmclean

Another comparison would be to pit the LF against Red Wine Audio, Luxman SQ-N100, EAR HP4, RSA B-52 etc...


----------



## SteveM324

Quote: 





johnwmclean said:


> Another comparison would be to pit the LF against Red Wine Audio, Luxman SQ-N100, EAR HP4, RSA B-52 etc...


 


 Well my LF is waiting for me when I get home from work,  I also have the Luxman SQ-N100 (absolutely fantastic amp IMO) to compare it to.
  It will be an interesting comparison.  I liked the Luxman better than the Zana Deux SE so the ZD was sold last week.


----------



## Equus

Quote: 





johnwmclean said:


> Another comparison would be to pit the LF against Red Wine Audio, Luxman SQ-N100, EAR HP4, RSA B-52 etc...


 

 Hoping that we have a RWA at the Seattle meet next month.  That would be fun to listen to.
   

  
  Quote: 





stevem324 said:


> Well my LF is waiting for me when I get home from work,  I also have the Luxman SQ-N100 (absolutely fantastic amp IMO) to compare it to.
> It will be an interesting comparison.  I liked the Luxman better than the Zana Deux SE so the ZD was sold last week.


 


  Looking forward to hearing what you think!


----------



## BrainFood

Quote: 





equus said:


> so let's just revel in the plethora of options


 
   






. Nice line,


----------



## strannik

Quote: 





mangler said:


> Everything is much clearer (by comparison, there is definitely a layer of "smog" with the Lyr), transients hit harder, the soundstage is much wider (by comparison, the LCD2s sound closed in with the Lyr), there is more air between the instruments, the background is totally black, and the bass is deep and punchy. In short, the LF makes you feel like you're being surrounded by powerful live music, while the Lyr makes the music sound powerful but more in-your-head.


 

 Incredibly well put, these exact impressions are gnawing away at my conscience after recently purchasing the Lyr. Only I didn't need a LF to realize this, the humble WA6 was sufficient


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





mangler said:


> I thought I might throw in my two cents since I've owned both the Lyr and the Liquid Fire. First, when I only owned the Lyr I also thought that it would be hard for the Liquid Fire to sound much better, and that maybe the rave reviews of the Liquid Fire were all hype. I definitely had reservations about buying the Liquid Fire, but I bit the bullet because I knew I could sell it if I didn't like it. So, I thought, why not check out the Liquid Fire?
> 
> After my LF arrived I did several side-by-side comparisons between the Lyr and Liquid Fire. To tell you the truth, I wanted the Lyr to be as good as the Liquid Fire, because I could definitely use that $2750 elsewhere. However, to my amazement, the Liquid Fire bested the Lyr in all categories that matter to me. Everything is much clearer (by comparison, there is definitely a layer of "smog" with the Lyr), transients hit harder, the soundstage is much wider (by comparison, the LCD2s sound closed in with the Lyr), there is more air between the instruments, the background is totally black, and the bass is deep and punchy. In short, the LF makes you feel like you're being surrounded by powerful live music, while the Lyr makes the music sound powerful but more in-your-head. For me, that sensation of being surrounded by live music (no easy task on headphones), is one of the key things that makes the Liquid Fire so special.
> 
> ...


 

 Aside from the slight bits of misinformation, this was a good post!  Thanks!


----------



## Kremer930

I found that both the stock JJ tubes and the Gold lion ECC88 tubes in the Lyr created a sense of a veil or smog, for the people from LA. But changing to the Amperex/Mullards changed that totally.  If opinions of the Lyr have been formed with either of these tube combinations then, IMO, you havent yet heard the Lyrs capabilities.


----------



## strannik

I have found the above impressions to still hold even with the Mullards. I think the main issue that concerns me is that there is very limited sound layering with the Lyr. This one factor cascades down into other issues with soundstage, closed in sound and instrument separation.
  
  Quote: 





kremer930 said:


> I found that both the stock JJ tubes and the Gold lion ECC88 tubes in the Lyr created a sense of a veil or smog, for the people from LA. But changing to the Amperex/Mullards changed that totally.  If opinions of the Lyr have been formed with either of these tube combinations then, IMO, you havent yet heard the Lyrs capabilities.


----------



## Kremer930

Hmm Interesting.  Will be good to see how the $1k Schiit statement amp compares against these $3k machines.  If a $450 product can come close then I am looking forward to some real muscle and finess being levied by Schiit.  
   
  I agree with comments made earlier that you dont know what you are not hearing until you actually get to hear it but when listening to the Lyr playing lossless high res from a Bryston media player and Dac combo the Lyr made me feel like I was in the jazz club with the artists.  It was eerily good.  I could almost smell the artists deodorant.    And that was only with some 6N1P tubes at the time.


----------



## Equus

Quote: 





brainfood said:


> . Nice line,


 

 Haha...thanks.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Upcoming Seattle meet should be great for LCD-2 enthusiasts who want to briefly audition some combos.  If the past is any indication, we'll have a ton of LCD-2's (across almost any revision you can think of) and a wide variety of amps (Balancing Act, Liquid Fire, hopefully a, Isabellina HPA, etc).


----------



## adydula

Well golly gee.....lets not get off track...this is a thread bout amp recommendations for the LCD2's not a battle between the Lyr and Liquidfire...although it certaintly sounds like it would make a great movie ala "david and goliath"....( smiling)...
   
  So the Liquid Fire amp according to a "few" folks here is HIGHLY reccomended. Awesome...
   
  The Lyr for the bucks is an excellent choice as well and is also highly recommended, Awesome..
   
  Manglers post is a good one about how he feels his new LiquidFire is compared to the Lyr he had and I can respect that opinion and his experience.
   
  Stating: Amps more expensive than the Lyr, like the Liquid Fire, are almost certainly in the area of diminishing returns, BUT those subtleties you do get add up to create a profound and engaging listening experience, one that takes you somewhere the Lyr cannot (IMO).  
   
  Well I dont beg to differ but the Lyr has for me provided just as a profound and engaging listening experience as well....with my source, my audio chain, and my ears. Please respect that. (IMO).
   
  The "more expensive" part does and always will make me question if more $$$ really means better or significant audible improvements that can be measured or proven in a double blind test that is not in your control...
   
  Ok do we want to still debate the differences and the price delta or just move on to other amps as well????
   
  The title of this thread us Amp recommendations for the LCD2, this includes the Lyr, LiquidFire and ALL others....
   
  I am glad Mr Cavalli posted and understands there are lots of choices other than just his awesome products.....
   
  Now who is going to send me their LiquidFire so I can hear the diffence!!!
   
  All the best
  Alex


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





equus said:


> I don't think anyone is trying to convince you.  It's just a matter of opinion.  Having heard both the Lyr and the Liquid Fire, I'm also in agreement with mangler and Kingstyles.  I think we can agree that we all are entitled to our opinions and tastes, so let's just revel in the plethora of options available to us nowadays and leave it at that.


 
  I have no idea what you are talking about.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





kremer930 said:


> Hmm Interesting.  Will be good to see how the $1k Schiit statement amp compares against these $3k machines.  If a $450 product can come close then I am looking forward to some real muscle and finess being levied by Schiit.


 
  did Schiit say the statement amp would cost $1K?   I didn't see that anywhere.  That would be very interesting indeed.


----------



## adydula

Thought that was a statement DAC....
   
  Alex


----------



## ornitorrinco

According to Jason from Schiiit:
   
   What you can look forward to: 
 1. A line of 3 DACs, the first to be announced in June as the highest-value product like Asgard was announced last June. We'll also give at least a brief roadmap of what's coming so people can know if they want to wait or not. All of the DACs will have some surprises but the final 'statement' DAC will be the most, ahem - _surprising_.
 2. A 'statement' headphone/2-channel product.

  
  Quote: 





adydula said:


> Thought that was a statement DAC....
> 
> Alex


----------



## Deliverator

Quote: 





strannik said:


> Incredibly well put, these exact impressions are gnawing away at my conscience after recently purchasing the Lyr. Only I didn't need a LF to realize this, the humble WA6 was sufficient


 

 I have found the WA6 to be very sweet with my Rev. 2's.  With the right tubes, they are a very nice match.


----------



## Kremer930

Just a guess on price from what I have seen across a number of different forums.  Jason should announce some more details on it over the next few months.


----------



## KingStyles

Getting the LF or any other expensive amp will do nothing for it if the dac is going to be the bottle neck. The more expensive amps allow your system to scale up as you get better and better source/transport. If you put the LF and the Lyr on a low end dac, the changes may be subtle. As the dac gets of better quality, the differences between the 2 will gradually increase. If you arent planning to upgrade your front end, then buying a 3000+ amp probably wont gain you that much. I am just using the LF and the Lyr as an example and not saying this is true or not, it is just an opinion.


----------



## adydula

Cool more goodies for us to drool over!!
   
  While were are back to comparisons:
   
  It was stated that: "In contrast, the Lyr is primarily designed for high impedance headphones or orthodynamics, so its application is a bit more limited ................""
   
  Let me add a little clarification:
   
  "The Lyr was only designed for orthos and high impedance headphones" is the same as saying "the Lyr was only designed for orthos (low impedance) and high-impedance headphones." So it was designed, really, for both low impedance and high impedance loads. Bottom line, it was designed to do 40V peak-to-peak into pretty much any load from 32 ohms on up. It's totally capable at low impedances--heck, that's why a ton of people are using Lyr with the HiFiMan HE-6, which a lot of guys think needs a speaker amp to run well.
   
  However the Lyr is a high gain amp (10-12x depending on tubes), so it may not be the best bet for highly sensitive headphones like Denons or Ultrasones. Be Careful here.
   
  But even with the LCD2's at what ....50 ohms they can withstand 15 watts / 133 db!!!
  From Audeze website:
   
  "For final testing we have added high power tests with sine tones with average SPL over 120dB. "
   
  Wouldnt want them on my head at 133db!!
   
  You need to be careful with a hi-gain amp...with low impedance cans....just like the big boy amps and speakers...there is a implicit order of shutdown and power up....at least from what I have learned over the years....relays and the like do fail !!!
   
  Heres another idea...how about a whats the best amp for the LCD2's  in price categories?
   
  $100- 500
  $500 - 1000
  $1000-1500
  $1500 and up?
   
  All the best
  Alex


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





adydula said:


> Cool more goodies for us to drool over!!
> 
> While were are back to comparisons:
> 
> ...


 

 Good post!


----------



## mangler

[size=medium]Thanks for the clarification adydula. Sorry for any confusion, I was just trying to point out the versatility of the LF. Anyway, I'm looking forward to hearing some more comparisons and experiences with the LCD2s on different amps​[/size]


----------



## KingStyles

I would probably do
  0      -   500
  500   -  1000
  1000 -   2500
  2500 +
  Not a bad idea though.


----------



## Wedge

Hehe, I'm a little late but, I've owned 2 Ferraris, and currently own 2 Maseratis and a Cadillac CTS-V.  I actually prefer to drive my CTS-V.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  Quote: 





sachu said:


> edit: am outta this thread..enjoy your schitty little corvette. I think Kevin will like to ride with you as well. I'll stick to my Ferrari.


----------



## MacedonianHero

wedge said:


> Hehe, I'm a little late but, I've owned 2 Ferraris, and currently own 2 Maseratis and a Cadillac CTS-V.  I actually prefer to drive my CTS-V.




Ah...the CTS-V, the CTS's evil twin. Great car!


----------



## RedBull

Quote: 





paul meakin said:


> I think I actually owned one of those. If not, the one I had looked virtually identical. It didn't last that long though, being replaced by one of these, which was far superior.  The same company is now known as Arcam.


 

 Thanks for the feedback.  Far superior on the Phones out too? or speaker out?


----------



## KingStyles

I may have to add smog to the sound definition wiki. I think it is my new favorite buzz word.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
   
  Quote: 





> I would love to hear the Liquid Fire. Now I will hypocritically speculate: from following the LCD-2 and it's various sub-threads since the prototype impressions started rolling in, my guess is that the Liquid Fire and RWA Audeze Edition will be the amps vying for supremacy with the LCD-2. Followed by other great amps like the Apex Peak/Volcano, the Beta 22 and the Cavelli Stacker among others.


 
  Add the BA to the list.
   
  Quote: 





> My pedestrian dual-AD1955 equipped balanced Mini-i with the Bravo/Supplier wordclock/spdif converter (around $600 total) must be an over-achiever then because I could clearly hear the difference between the Lyr and my WA22 out of it with the LCD-2.


 
  I wasnt saying no difference could be heard. There is a point where it could bottleneck a highend amp. While your dac might be great with your wa22, it might do even better if it had a higher end source where the lyr at some point wont be able to handle the resolution, transparency, detail, etc as you scale up and top out. Like I said, it is just a theory.


----------



## JIGF

Quote: 





adydula said:


> Heres another idea...how about a whats the best amp for the LCD2's  in price categories?
> 
> $100- 500
> $500 - 1000
> ...


 

 That'd be nice. To post it in the OP would be useful too.


----------



## Wedge

CTS-V spec Lyr, Sounds good to me.


----------



## grokit

My posts in this thread tonight and any reference to them have been "administrated", as I evidently have offended somebody here with what I thought was dry humor and witty banter but I realize that this doesn't always come across well in internet forums.
   
  My intent was not to offend, but to have a fun back and forth exchange regarding certain absolute comparisons that one had made with an amplifier that he had purchased with an amplifier that he had never heard. It was not my intention to attack anyone personally, and that is evidently how my posts were construed so for that that I sincerely apologize.
   
  If I have offended anybody at all with my blatant thread crapping, derailing, flamebaiting and trolling I apologize for that as well. Please carry on.


----------



## olor1n

Not sure what's happened here, but why is someone comparing the Lyr to an amp he's clearly not heard? Shouldn't such practice be frowned upon on these forums?


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





olor1n said:


> Not sure what's happened here, but why is someone comparing the Lyr to an amp he's clearly not heard? Shouldn't such practice be frowned upon on these forums?


----------



## fra107

I received my new balanced Beta 22 from QES Labs 2 hours ago..........LCD-2 + bal. Beta 22 = HEAVEN!!!!


----------



## Paul Meakin

Speakers; I didn't use headphones back then, not too many people did as I remember.
  
  Quote: 





redbull said:


> Thanks for the feedback.  Far superior on the Phones out too? or speaker out?


----------



## K3cT

Interesting direction the thread had taken in the past few pages.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





olor1n said:


> Not sure what's happened here, but why is someone comparing the Lyr to an amp he's clearly not heard? Shouldn't such practice be frowned upon on these forums?


 

 It didn't happen, so DROP IT!  Re-read the posts before you grab your pitchfork and torch... I will close this thread if you guys can't get over this.


----------



## JIGF

Quote: 





k3ct said:


> Interesting direction the thread had taken in the past few pages.


 

 Yeah, it's all over the place.


----------



## olor1n

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> It didn't happen, so DROP IT!  Re-read the posts before you grab your pitchfork and torch... I will close this thread if you guys can't get over this.


 
   
  Don't appreciate being yelled at kw. I haven't instigated anything here. What's your beef?


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





olor1n said:


> Don't appreciate being yelled at kw. I haven't instigated anything here. What's your beef?


 

 Take it to PM, I'm tired of this thread being derailed.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Has anyone experienced the Ray Samuels DarkStar headphone Amp?


----------



## dagothur

I don't have a spare kidney to sell, so no.
  Quote: 





warriorant said:


> Has anyone experienced the Ray Samuels DarkStar headphone Amp?


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





dagothur said:


> I don't have a spare kidney to sell, so no.


 
   
  So what'd you sell the other kidney for? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  se


----------



## rmilewsk

I looked at it seriously but it seemed like total overkill powerwise for the LCD2's. That amp looks like it was built specifically for very hard to drive headphones.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





rmilewsk said:


> I looked at it seriously but it seemed like total overkill powerwise for the LCD2's. That amp looks like it was built specifically for very hard to drive headphones.


 


  Did you listen to it?


----------



## dagothur

Oh no, I have both of my kidneys.  It's just that I ran out of the spare kidney I keep floating around in my ribcage.  How else would I pay for something from RSA?
  Quote: 





steve eddy said:


> So what'd you sell the other kidney for?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Paul Meakin

Intriguing post, WA.  Are you considering buying one?
   
  Quote: 





warriorant said:


> Has anyone experienced the Ray Samuels DarkStar headphone Amp?


----------



## WarriorAnt

And now another amp from Apex.   *Apex High Fi Audio Butte*
  http://www.ttvjaudio.com:8080/store/comersus_viewItem.asp?idProduct=720


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





dagothur said:


> Oh no, I have both of my kidneys.  It's just that I ran out of the spare kidney I keep floating around in my ribcage.  How else would I pay for something from RSA?


 
   
  Excuses, excuses.
   
  Tell you what, I'll buy you the Dark Star if you pay for shipping to Antarctica. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  se


----------



## johnwmclean

warriorant said:


> And now another amp from Apex.   *Apex High Fi Audio Butte*
> http://www.ttvjaudio.com:8080/store/comersus_viewItem.asp?idProduct=720




PSU arrangement looks odd, 12VAC from what a transformer? wallwart?


----------



## ETAHL

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> And now another amp from Apex.   *Apex High Fi Audio Butte*
> http://www.ttvjaudio.com:8080/store/comersus_viewItem.asp?idProduct=720


 
   
  Amps using the LME49600 high current, high speed buffers are popping up all over the place like daisies.
  Hard to beat them for the price/performance ratio. They do sound great with the LCD-2s.


----------



## ETAHL

Quote: 





johnwmclean said:


> PSU arrangement looks odd, 12VAC from what a transformer? wallwart?


 

 Most likely a wallwart of a power brick. Looks like there is built in rectifying, filtering and regulation of the in coming power source.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> Has anyone experienced the Ray Samuels DarkStar headphone Amp?


 
   
  The DarkStar looks like a serious contender for the absolute top tier to me for sure. With the gain switch it looks to share the incredible versatility of a WA5, but a solid state version without speaker capability. Really an attractive looking setup! Warp 08 posted his impressions of it, and while he didn't have an LCD-2 on hand there is some detailed speculation about that setup in the ensuing thread, a pretty good read. For example, while the RSA Apache has been hailed as one of the best amps around for the LCD-2, his view is that the DarkStar is superior in every way.:
   
"We didn't have an Apache there to A/B it but from memory, I'd say the Dark Star is significantly better sounding in virtually all aspects..."

  
  Quote: 





paul meakin said:


> Intriguing post, WA.  Are you considering buying one?


----------



## shamrock134

That RSA gear is sexy! What's with the spikes though? Does it vibrate?


----------



## Equus

^^^ Haha...no...those are just a style of feet used sometimes.  The Stacker 2 I have used to have spikes.


----------



## sachu

yeah, but then i upgraded you to a set of those humongous rubber feet that just totally fit the amp. Thanks to Justin at Headamp for the hook up on those rubber feet.


----------



## Equus

Yup...and my bedside table and tables at meets around the Pacific Northwest thank him too.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Those spikes can be wicked on surfaces if one isn't careful.
   
  In all seriousness, the "new" rubber feet are pretty awesome.  While spikes may seem kind chic, I'm sure there can be some debate about how useful they are for vibration and resonance control.  They would be useful if someone wanted to try to steal my amp though.  I could poke their eye out with it.


----------



## dagothur

Well my research cycle ends at the end of the summer, so you'll have to ship it before September.
  
  Quote: 





steve eddy said:


> Excuses, excuses.
> 
> Tell you what, I'll buy you the Dark Star if you pay for shipping to Antarctica.
> 
> ...


----------



## Kremer930

I love the look of the Darkstar.  Spikes and all.  It just works from a visual point.  I want to see it compared to the Schiit Statement amp at the end of the year.  You guys in the States are so lucky to be able to have meets where you can do side by side listening sessions rather than having to buy first and decide later.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Is the schiit "statement" amp going to be tube,  solid state,  or hybrid?


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





equus said:


> Yup...and my bedside table and tables at meets around the Pacific Northwest thank him too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  I have a shoe box of spikes in the garage.


----------



## Kremer930

I have been sworn to secrecy around details but regardless of your preferred taste in amps the statement amp will be worth considering. It is going to create more fuss than the Lyr has IMO. 

I havent ever heard any of the really high end amps but if money was more abundant I would have multiple amps and take the plunge on either a mini Torre, a woo 5 or the dark star. But given what I know about the Schiit statement amp... I am holding out for Schiit.


----------



## Hero Kid

Quote:


warriorant said:


> Is the schiit "statement" amp going to be tube,  solid state,  or hybrid?


 


  So far the only public comment from Jason regarding their new amp is this post. http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/545842/schiit-dacs-one-down-two-to-go-the-information-and-anticipation-thread/315#post_7579004
   
  It doesn't really answer your question but it's all there really is at the moment.


----------



## Kremer930

I have been lucky enough to be privy to far more details than what has been made public. And it is not rumor. I can't say anything, and that combined with the wait is killing me. 

I am not only setting aside enough cash for the Schiit statement amp and the DAC but also the LCD 2.2's. My current opinion is that with the LCD and HE6 combined with the Schiit statement gear should be comparable to any top end rig. 

Has anyone ever compared the LCDs to the new top end Stax? I would guess that the stax are still significantly bass light. I would prioritize bass detail to midrange and treble details. Plus I can't afford/justify the stax 9.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





kremer930 said:


> I have been lucky enough to be privy to far more details than what has been made public. And it is not rumor. I can't say anything, and that combined with the wait is killing me.
> 
> I am not only setting aside enough cash for the Schiit statement amp and the DAC but also the LCD 2.2's. My current opinion is that with the LCD and HE6 combined with the Schiit statement gear should be comparable to any top end rig.
> 
> Has anyone ever compared the LCDs to the new top end Stax? I would guess that the stax are still significantly bass light. I would prioritize bass detail to midrange and treble details. Plus I can't afford/justify the stax 9.


 
  You know the price of the Schiit amp?   I'm only interested in a tube amp since I already have a solid state.


----------



## Kremer930

Yes. And it will be within your budget. It will compete with the big names but not on price. I can't say anything more.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





kremer930 said:


> Yes. And it will be within your budget. It will compete with the big names but not on price. I can't say anything more.


 

 Wait. How do you know what my budget is?


----------



## Kremer930

Based on the amp you are running now.  You dont appear to have bought a mega dollar boutique amp like a Peak/Volcano or RSA etc
   
  I could be wrong but if you spent that much on your current amp then you should be prepared to spend the same again when you upgrade.  
   
  I am guessing of course but without giving away the expected cost of the Schiit Statement amp...I am trying to say that it will be worth holding out for.


----------



## grokit

Hasn't it already been announced that it will be in the neighborhood of $1,000?


----------



## JIGF

Quote: 





grokit said:


> Hasn't it already been announced that it will be in the neighborhood of $1,000?


 
   
  I think Jason said somewhere that both statements (amp and dac) would be bellow $1,000.


----------



## RedBull

Has anyone tried this for LCD-2?  you see those analog meter?  ooohhh, so lovely ...
   
  SANSUI QS 4/2channel reciever
 Model: Qrx9001
 Made:Japan
 Weight:29kg


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





kremer930 said:


> Based on the amp you are running now.  You dont appear to have bought a mega dollar boutique amp like a Peak/Volcano or RSA etc
> 
> I could be wrong but if you spent that much on your current amp then you should be prepared to spend the same again when you upgrade.
> 
> I am guessing of course but without giving away the expected cost of the Schiit Statement amp...I am trying to say that it will be worth holding out for.


 

 This is always an interesting perspective to observe and shed light upon, the dollar amount price point of any piece of gear in relationship to its performance.   Although I would like to own the APEX/Volcano because I want to also own an amp with some or all tube flavor I cannot say if it would be an upgrade from the V200.   
  It is my firm belief extracted from 3 decades of audiophile self torture that many units are often priced for a price point and not always for a performance point and then often the set price point gives the impression of better performance.  Several amps in the 2K -3K range I believe could probably cost at least $500 less than they do.  Some off them I believe are priced at their price point to give them more respect.  I'm not going to say which amps or designers do this but it is refreshing to see a company like Schiit offer gear at the price points at which they do offer units.  Many of their units could have been priced higher and would initially gotten even more respect (not that their gear needs more respect).    But my point here to be clear is that the price of gear does not always dictate performance.   Having said that I do eagerly await what Mike and Jason are cooking up.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





redbull said:


> Has anyone tried this for LCD-2?  you see those analog meter?  ooohhh, so lovely ...
> 
> SANSUI QS 4/2channel reciever
> Model: Qrx9001
> ...


 
   I have a vintage  Sansui integrated amp coming in today and another Kenwood next week.  Just finished detailing a Marantz and a Yamaha receiver from the 70's this week.  The sound of the vintage gear can be very impressive indeed.  I still prefer the V200  for my LCD-s.  The vintage units I've been collecting sound amazing with my daughters collection of headphones.  Really outstanding in many ways.


----------



## grokit

I think that audio component prices are priced relative to the parts and labor required to put them together, as there are a lot of choices for consumers at all levels and manufacturers have to stay at least somewhat competitive at their given price point. The individual part prices follow the same reasoning, and are based on real material and labor costs.


----------



## dagothur

Name is also a big part of it.  What company but Stax could charge five grand for a headphone?  What company but Woo Audio or RSA could charge the same for their amps?  People wouldn't allow Califone to do that if the headphones beamed pure, unaltered sound directly into your brain and came with an amp/dac that turned all files into 24/96 FLAC.


----------



## adydula

Man does that QRX 9001 bring back memories!!
   
  The 2 ch purists went absolutley whacko when these came out...not just this receiver....but all of the quads.
   
  The question is how well is the headphone amp circuitry put together??
   
  But dang this receiver sure is pretty and those analog meters are sweet...
   
  It wont hurt to plug them in and try....
   
  There are a few manufacturers that do make statements about their audio equipment and the perfomance with headphones.
   
  One is Van Alstine Audio....I have a upgraded Insight + preamp that I used with the LCD2's with fine results.
   
  Most of Van Alstines latest preamps have a fine headphone circuit.
   
  Here is a post from the owner Frank Van Alstine:
  The headphone circuits in all new AVA tube or hybrid preamps are small no feedback high current unity gain current buffers connected internally to the active line circuit outputs.  They have nearly zero distortion (0.0003% THD and a slew rate of 3000V/uS.  They add no sound of their own at all.
   
  The adding no sound of their own seems to be a really good design point to strive for.
   
  Alex


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





dagothur said:


> Name is also a big part of it.  What company but Stax could charge five grand for a headphone?  What company but Woo Audio or RSA could charge the same for their amps?  People wouldn't allow Califone to do that if the headphones beamed pure, unaltered sound directly into your brain and came with an amp/dac that turned all files into 24/96 FLAC.


 

 Well compare Woo to Little Dot for example. Comparable amp technology, but a big difference in the quality of the finish, consistency, and support after the sale as well as the labor costs to assemble of course. I really don't know about the individual parts used, but I would think that Woo has an edge there as well.
   
  I don't have any experience with Stax, but with Woo as well as Little Dot even though they both make great-sounding amps I really feel that you get what you pay for.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





adydula said:


> Man does that QRX 9001 bring back memories!!
> 
> The 2 ch purists went absolutley whacko when these came out...not just this receiver....but all of the quads.
> 
> ...


 
  I just received delivery of a vintage Sansui AU 505 integrated amp and I'm listening to the LCD's on it right now.  It is really holding its own for sure. So far it is the most impressive vintage unit I have.    They really knew how to build things back then.   I can't wait now to restore it.  
  http://www.vintageaudioonline.com/sansui-au-505-integrated-amplifier/


----------



## Kremer930

There is often no real link between cost to manufacture and ultimate sale price.  When a product is designed and planned for market many decisions around component choice, production methods and scale, distribution channels, advertising budget etc are planned to make the product suit a price point.  Inefficiencies in any of these areas can cause an increase in retail price without having a direct increase in quality or performance.  Some manufacturers want to have small inefficient production methods because of limited capital or to fit a design choice whereas others will look to a minimum scale in order to lower unit costs.
   
  Without going into depths on this, I really admire Schiit as an American company sourcing primarily from USA component manufacturers and providing their considerable intellectual abilities and experience into making a product that challenges the price to performance ratio.


----------



## adydula

Kremer930 I cant agree more....its good to see stuff like this being made here it the USA...The Schitt guys alot like the Audeze guys...and God knows there is a lot of choices and competition out there....hard to get going in this area and make it...so much good stuff fro, everywhere.
   
  WarriorAnt...so cool on the Sansui...let us know how it goes!
   
  Alex


----------



## Kremer930

Thanks Alex.  I should also add Audeze and Hifiman into the category of fantastic performance per cost.  I wonder how many people would own a Stax rig if the SR009 cost $1k like the LCD2 and HE6.
   
  There are probably many more creating exceptional value for money but I just wanted to add a general comment.
   
  Warrior Ant - Does the vintage amp maintain the micro detail of a dedicated headphone amp?  I would imagine that soundstage and dynamics would be done well but interested to know your thoughts on the finer detail.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





kremer930 said:


> Warrior Ant - Does the vintage amp maintain the micro detail of a dedicated headphone amp?  I would imagine that soundstage and dynamics would be done well but interested to know your thoughts on the finer detail.


 

 Of the 3 pieces of vintage gear this is the only one that I can seriously sit down and listen to the LCD-2's with.  The Marantz 2215B is an excellent receiver, warm and so smooth. Good detail but not micro detail.  Not enough to bring the life out of the LCD's but really nice with my daughters Audio Technica ATH Ad 700's and her Grado 80i's  Neither of which I can listen to unless they are used on the Marantz or the Yamaha CR 820.  The Yamaha CR 820 as I said is another good match with good synergy with my daughters cans but again nothing special  with the LCD's but better than the Marantz. The Yamaha is a cleaner more neutral type of sound than the Marantz.
   
  Been listening to the Sansui for about 3 hours with the LCD and I am impressed.  It has what it takes to bring out the life force of the LCD's.  While not in the same class as my V200 it is satisfying nevertheless.  
   
  The Sansui has a lot to offer the LCD's.  There is a good soundstage. Good bass and upper extension.  Sometimes the upper frequencies can come at you a little bit forward or a bit overly dynamic but if you back the volume off a bit you can alleviate any unpleasant overly dynamic moments. That is not to imply that the amp is out of control or even unpleasant or harsh in those upper regions it's just that it is simply better controlled with a high end amp than this vintage amp.  Still though it is an excellent sound. Vocals are reproduced nicely.  Surprisingly good separation in the soundstage also
   
  The Sansui may not have all the finesse in most areas that a dedicated high end amp has but all in all it has good soundstage and inner detail and in its own way is very engaging.  You can listen to it and enjoy the music on the LCD.  You can forget whatever natural analysis one's audiophile mind might conjure and just enjoy the music.  Did I mention I paid just $26 for it?  
   
  The tone controls are well behaved also.  It seems that these vintage amps and receivers come from a time when the designers took those controls with a serious attitude.  on all 3 of my units the tone controls are more refined than on anything I've seen on a new modern unit. When you turn up the bass on this unit it doesn't make the bass bigger or bloated just increases without that bloat new units can create.  Same with the treble. It is a more refined increase and doesn't drastically change the upper region or make it too sharp.


----------



## RedBull

Quote:


warriorant said:


> I have a vintage  Sansui integrated amp coming in today and another Kenwood next week.  Just finished detailing a Marantz and a Yamaha receiver from the 70's this week.  The sound of the vintage gear can be very impressive indeed.  I still prefer the V200  for my LCD-s.  The vintage units I've been collecting sound amazing with my daughters collection of headphones.  Really outstanding in many ways.


 

 I heard a lot of good things about Sansui vintage amps, some mentioned it has good bass.  I never tried vintage before, I'm not getting more and more excited with those vintages.  Could you define 'impressive' above, in what areas?  and in what areas you still prefer V200 over those vintages.  I know I'm generalizing 'vintage' too much, but at the moment, let's limit to what you have heard so far.
   
  Quote: 





adydula said:


> Man does that QRX 9001 bring back memories!!
> 
> The 2 ch purists went absolutley whacko when these came out...not just this receiver....but all of the quads.
> 
> ...


 

 Yeah, analog meters and those analog turns bring back memories.  I read again QRX 9001 seems to be too 'advance' at that time, some people reported some problems that the 2 channel isn't working well, so I skip this.
   
  The thing is, almost all manufacturer always said their gear added no sound on their own, but I believe every gear has its own effect to the sound, it's a matter we like it or not.


----------



## RedBull

^ It's ok WA, you have describe the Sansui just above my post, sorry.


----------



## rmilewsk

I have not listened to it.


----------



## Sweden

Anyone who have any experience withe the bigger brother of Sansui AU-505 namely Sansui AU-555?
  The price is for now around 250 USD.
  Good deal or not with the LCD's?
   
  Anyone have a clue if any of these possibly could be a good match?
   
  Marantz PM-500
  Akai AA-6200
  Akai AA-1030
  H.H.SCOTT
  Rotel RX-400
  Teac  BX-500


----------



## fra107

Anyone have tried LCD-2 with Pioneer M-73?


----------



## Skylab

I mostly use my LCD-2's these days with this vintage beauty:
   

   
  Completely re-capped/restored Sansui 9090DB, which is a very powerful vintage 70's receiver.  The sound from the LCD-2 from this Sansui is remarkably good - so good I prefer it over several dedicated headphone amps selling for more than $1K...


----------



## adydula

Skylab that AVR is absolutley beautiful....gee I grew up with all these...and AVRs were always a compromise with the 'seperates' crowd..my first AVR was an
  Allied 395 ....used it with a early pair of Beyer's...and speakers of course!..   picture of what budding audiophiles back then read on the commode!!!! LOL
   
  Alex


----------



## rmilewsk

Why is that poor girl being attacked by a vampire?


----------



## tme110

HA!    (those silly vampires)
   
  I don't know if AVR is the right word.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





tme110 said:


> HA!
> 
> I don't know if AVR is the right word.


 

 Ya, back then, there was no V in AVR!


----------



## adydula

Hahahahahahah!!

 Vampire...how observant.....oh gee now that I look at it ....sure does resemble Bela Lugosi's relative!!
   
  Music to attract vampires by...yup no v back then...
   
  It was Phone In or your Turntable, No CD deck, but cassette deck, reel to reel tape deck like a Revox A77, FM tuner sometimes....ah the good ole days..
   
  Tube to transistors and now back to tubes..
   
  All the best
   
  Alex


----------



## TheWuss

I just wanted to muddy the waters a bit with my impression of the LCD-2 (rev. 2) and Peak/Volcano....  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  The combination was very good.  Let me preface my more in-depth evaluation by saying that much.  
   
  While it _was_ very good overall, I was also left with the impression that the Peak/Volcano may not be the ideal amp for the LCD-2.
  Let there be no doubt, the Peak/Volcano is an *amazing* amp, and makes most of my other headphones sound better than I've ever heard them.  
  However, the amp seems to be pulling some clever tricks of coloration in order to make the best out of the average headphone (which the LCD-2 is not).
   
  For instance - and this is with the Shuguang Treasure tube, mind you - the amp is quite full in the midrange, and a bit forward overall.  And slightly brighter than neutral.
  So, with the LCD-2, vocals bordered on "too much" for my ears on some material.
  Also, the Peak exhibited fantastic bass with conventional dynamic headphones such as the T1, D7000, and K702.  However, with the LCD-2, the deeper bass seemed a bit reticent.
  So, the Peak left me a bit wanting in the bass department with the LCD-2.  An odd finding, for sure, because the Peak fared so well with other headphones in this department.
   
  Overall, I felt the pairing was very good, as I said. 
  But, my summation would be this: If the LCD-2 were the only headphone I had in my arsenal, then I would start tube rolling in a fit of panic. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  To be honest, building the right synergy with a headphone is still a mysterious thing for me.
  So, I'm left pleased that the Peak mates with other headphones so beautifully, but also a little perplexed about its pairing with the LCD-2.
   
  If you've bothered to read this far, I hope you'll take my impressions for what they are -  just my honest take.  YMMV, etc. etc.
   
  I'd love to hear from other Peak / LCD-2 owners.  Especially those who've ventured out past the Shuguang Treasure.  What are your impressions of NOS tubes in the Peak?
   
  Cheers, and happy listening!!!




  The Wuss


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





skylab said:


> I mostly use my LCD-2's these days with this vintage beauty:
> 
> 
> 
> Completely re-capped/restored Sansui 9090DB, which is a very powerful vintage 70's receiver.  The sound from the LCD-2 from this Sansui is remarkably good - so good I prefer it over several dedicated headphone amps selling for more than $1K...


 

 wow! and I thought your Pioneer was your secret weapon.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





redbull said:


> Quote:
> 
> I heard a lot of good things about Sansui vintage amps, some mentioned it has good bass.  I never tried vintage before, I'm not getting more and more excited with those vintages.  Could you define 'impressive' above, in what areas?  and in what areas you still prefer V200 over those vintages.  I know I'm generalizing 'vintage' too much, but at the moment, let's limit to what you have heard so far.
> 
> ...


 

 It has been an interesting comparison between the Sansui 505 and the V200.    It is all a matter of refinement.  The V200 is in another league in terms of refinement in every area where it counts.  It simply has more control and finesse.  That is something you appreciate when your'e listening to the V200 and you experience and appreciate this finesse as it is being delivered to you.  All those refinements add up to what is a high end headphone amp.    In the light of those observations the Sansui is not to be humiliated as something crude or unmannered. Overall it also has so many of the things that count for a musical experience that are to be found in the more refined higher end of amplification.  Things are just not as refined.  Not crude, just not as refined.  Musically pleasant though, and not disappointing.   
   
  I would say if you cannot afford a high end amp for your cans then explore something like a vintage integrated amp or receiver.  I love the look of the vintage receivers but I detest todays FM scene so much and how pitifully bad FM programming has become since it's advent in the 60's that I never listen to it.  I sold my high end Magnun Dynalab analog tuner, my Magnum Dynalab RF amp and my rooftop motorized directional antenna.     So although I love the look of those cool receivers I'm leaning more towards the integrated vintage.
   
  Anyway I think that if one cannot afford a high end amp then try out some vintage stuff.  My Sansui cost me $26 and I think a lot of users would find it exciting with their LCD's and other headphones as well.
   
  There are a few ways to go if you want to venture into the world of vintage.  The first way is to seek out a unit from the 70's that has been reconditioned and serviced by someone with the skill and knowledge to do this.  This means it has been refurbished.  Most likely the caps have been replaced, possibly the resistors, its been benched and tested, cleaned, all the stuff you'd want to have done to insure you're going to have a good sounding, good performing unit that should go on working for a long time to come.  These units are more expensive of course but are like brand new units when done.
   
  Here are a few places I visit that refurbish equipment and also sell units.  I visit them not to buy but because I'm slowly teaching myself how to refurbish vintage equipment and with my fingers tightly crossed I'm learning how not to electrocute myself while ignorantly tooling around inside the units.
   
  http://www.cdkands.com/index2.html
   
  http://www.irebuildmarantz.com/
   
  Now you can go on eBay and begin to find units there.  You will find two kinds of vintage.  One this is being sold by an owner that has had the unit serviced and has receipts to prove it and the other by owners who somehow or another have vintage units for sale most of which have not been serviced but have been in someones possession for years or they acquired a unit from someone who has had it for years.   You will either buy a unit that is in good working conditioning or is not in good working condition to some degree when you go that route. It is always hard to say.  Prices will vary and sometimes the shipping can really add on to the cost of the unit.
   
  There is a function on ebay that allows you to see where the "nearest geographical location" for  the units is.  I use this a lot now to find sellers in my local area.   If you win a bid this way you can pick up the unit and save on the shipping and don't have to worry about shipping damage.  If you are lucky and find a unit you like and it has a buy it now button it may be worth it to buy it and not have to bid with others if it's in your location.
   
  But if you are not willing to pay for shipping and take the shipping damage chance and don't mind a unit that hasn't been serviced (some have) I would first recommend using Craig's list to look for a vintage unit.  This way you don't have to bid against other people, the units in general tend to have a lower final price than an ebay bid. You can pick up the unit and see it first. It is a lot easier this way.  I found a really nice Yamaha CR 820 for $75 this way.  The guy would have taken less I'm sure but it was in such nice condition I felt it was a good deal.  He basically had the unit on one shelf forever in his home and it worked fine.  I took it home and cleaned it inside and out and it's a beauty.  
   
  There is also an ebay that is a local ebay.  It doesn't do auctions just local listings.  
   
  Some other sites.
  http://www.classicaudio.com/value/index.html
  http://vintageelectronics.betamaxcollectors.com/
  http://www.gallagher.com/ebay.htm
  http://www.thevintageknob.org/


----------



## Skylab

warriorant said:


> wow! and I thought your Pioneer was your secret weapon.



I like them both! I have one of each of the big three of 70's receivers - Pioneer SX-1980, Sansui 9090, and Marantz 2275. All of them are terrific with both the LCD-2 and the HE-6.


----------



## Equus

Quote: 





thewuss said:


> While it _was_ very good overall, I was also left with the impression that the Peak/Volcano may not be the ideal amp for the LCD-2.
> Let there be no doubt, the Peak/Volcano is an *amazing* amp, and makes most of my other headphones sound better than I've ever heard them.
> However, the amp seems to be pulling some clever tricks of coloration in order to make the best out of the average headphone (which the LCD-2 is not).
> 
> ...


 

 Interesting.  What I noticed on the Peak, if my memory serves, was that in pulling apart and separating the sounds, it sometimes had a tendency to make some particular voice or instrument a tad more forward in presentation than what I would have thought.  Wonder if you're hearing something similar in certain songs and that's what is making some vocals sound like a little "too much".


----------



## tme110

The peak changes quite a bit depending on what tube is in it.  I didn't care for the BT too much myself.  I got it because everyone kept talking about it but even after a very painful (and much needed) burn in, it still wasn't my favorite.  I actually got a random sylvania tube off of ebay for $10 that I love.  I wish someone had a mullard I could barrow - esp after the BT I'm willing to pay that much to check it out.  I've been keeping the BT in because I'm hoping it will eventually become what I want but I think it may be time to move on.
  
  Quote: 





thewuss said:


> I just wanted to muddy the waters a bit with my impression of the LCD-2 (rev. 2) and Peak/Volcano....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Equus

The Peak did definitely change with the tube swapped in, so I can see how it might become a different beast depending on what you throw in there.  I had a few random vintage tubes I tried, as well as the BT and the stock tube that were making the rounds with the loaner.  Interesting how the topology of the amp either makes the tube critical or not.  With the Liquid Fire, for instance, the tubes make a difference but it's not nearly as dramatic as the Stacker 2 or what I remember of the Peak.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Would you guys say that the Peak brings out the characteristics of the tube it uses more than any other amp precisely because it depend on just a singular tube in the chain?


----------



## Equus

Naw...it's probably just how the amp is designed.  The Stacker 2 uses a tube for each channel, but it changes just as much if not more with tube rolling because the design allows you to (or forces you to, depending on how you want to think about) listen to the tube.  With the Liquid Fire, from what Alex told me, the amp reflects the sum and combination of all the components more, so it isn't as reliant on the tube used.


----------



## kwkarth

Even the Lyr changes quite substantially, when tubes are rolled.


----------



## olor1n

What's the benefit of using a tube for each channel (in the case of Lyr), as opposed to a single tube? Considering the cost of some NOS (particular the super rare and apparently magical tubes), I wonder if "better" results could be achieved for less.


----------



## TheWuss

Quote: 





equus said:


> Interesting.  What I noticed on the Peak, if my memory serves, was that in pulling apart and separating the sounds, it sometimes had a tendency to make some particular voice or instrument a tad more forward in presentation than what I would have thought.  Wonder if you're hearing something similar in certain songs and that's what is making some vocals sound like a little "too much".


 

 yeah.  i think that's sort of it.
  it spotlights the midrange in order to give you that intenese musical sound.  and, in doing so, a headphone like the LCD-2, which is already very strongly mid-centric, can become too much of a good thing.
  but, as i said, it was a subtle issue i found with the peak / lcd-2 combo.


----------



## adydula

I would think we would want amps to be just that.....amps...with no additions of any kind except for amplification.
  This can be had with the minimum of circuitry...but we sure have lots of amps that have lots of circuitry...makes for interesting
  comparisons....straight line with gain.
   
  Alex


----------



## Wedge

Its all architecture based, so some amps use a buffer stage between the drive and the output stages, often times if you use 1 tube per channel and its a dual triode as in the case of 6SN7 or 6922, 1 triode would be used for drive the other would be used for the buffer.  In the case of the Peak, 1 triode per channel is used and a buffer if there is one is solid state.


----------



## Buttsack

What's the best to go with these head phones for under $3000? The amp will be used in my future setup so I don't mind spending good money on the amp now. Am I better off having a dedicated amp for the headphones or spend more money on a really good amp so I can use it to run awesome speakers and headphones.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





adydula said:


> I would think we would want amps to be just that.....amps...with no addidtions of any kind except for amplification.
> This can be had with the minimum of circuitry...but we sure have lots of amps that have lots of circuitry...makes for interesting
> comparisons....straight line with gain.
> 
> Alex


 

 I take it that this would not be for you then:


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





buttsack said:


> What's the best to go with these head phones for under $3000? The amp will be used in my future setup so I don't mind spending good money on the amp now. Am I better off having a dedicated amp for the headphones or spend more money on a really good amp so I can use it to run awesome speakers and headphones.


 

 Tubed, solid state or hybrid?


----------



## Buttsack

Quote: 





grokit said:


> Tubed, solid state or hybrid?


 
  I think I might go with solid state but I haven't heard either.


----------



## Currawong

Quote: 





equus said:


> Naw...it's probably just how the amp is designed.  The Stacker 2 uses a tube for each channel, but it changes just as much if not more with tube rolling because the design allows you to (or forces you to, depending on how you want to think about) listen to the tube.  With the Liquid Fire, from what Alex told me, the amp reflects the sum and combination of all the components more, so it isn't as reliant on the tube used.


 
   
  Quote: 





adydula said:


> I would think we would want amps to be just that.....amps...with no addidtions of any kind except for amplification.
> This can be had with the minimum of circuitry...but we sure have lots of amps that have lots of circuitry...makes for interesting
> comparisons....straight line with gain.
> 
> Alex


 
   
  It has been an interesting experience owning the Stacker II as it is the first amp in which I've been able to roll tubes.  My usual LCD-2 amp has been the Phoenix, which is as close as possible to straight-wire-with-gain and the lowest distortion possible.  In many respects, I prefer the Phoenix as it simply is more refined and presents a wider soundstage than any amp I've had here (such as the Luxman P-1 and Audiovalve RKV Mark II). However, I appreciate the sheer musicality of the Stacker, it having only the slightest lost of refinement compared to the Phoenix. The perfect amp, I reckon, would be a combination of both, but likely such an amp would cost a fortune (such as the Apex Pinnacle possibly).
  
   
  Quote: 





buttsack said:


> What's the best to go with these head phones for under $3000? The amp will be used in my future setup so I don't mind spending good money on the amp now. Am I better off having a dedicated amp for the headphones or spend more money on a really good amp so I can use it to run awesome speakers and headphones.


 

 What I appreciate is having headphone amp that also is dedicated pre-amp, as all I have to do is add a power amp to my system and it becomes a speaker rig.


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





> What I appreciate is having headphone amp that also is dedicated pre-amp, as all I have to do is add a power amp to my system and it becomes a speaker rig.


 

 Yup. I bought my headphone amp with that in mind as well. I just had to add a power amp and I have a speaker system as well.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





grokit said:


> I take it that this would not be for you then:


 


  Since when have looks been more important than performance?  This amp has been reported as not an ideal solution for Orthos, but it sure looks cool and has wonderful features..


----------



## jax

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> Since when have looks been more important than performance?  This amp has been reported as not an ideal solution for Orthos, but it sure looks cool and has wonderful features..


 

 The question anyone should be asking: Which headphone amp would Fernando buy?


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





jax said:


> The question anyone should be asking: Which headphone amp would Fernando buy?


 

 LOL!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  What amp would the most interesting man in the world buy?
   
   

When in Rome, they do as he does.


----------



## tme110

Well, I think you do get that with the peak - what you hear with the peak is the tube not the amp.  I think it was designed to be more dependent on the tube so it you want neutral sound you use a neutral tube.
   
  I haven't really looked into the LF so it could be obvious but I'm not sure why a SE hybrid amp would use 4 tubes.

  
  Quote: 





adydula said:


> I would think we would want amps to be just that.....amps...with no addidtions of any kind except for amplification.
> This can be had with the minimum of circuitry...but we sure have lots of amps that have lots of circuitry...makes for interesting
> comparisons....straight line with gain.
> 
> Alex


----------



## Equus

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> LOL!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   

   
  He doesn't use an amp.  He's already memorized the music so he hears it in perfect pitch and tonality in his head.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
   


  Quote: 





currawong said:


> It has been an interesting experience owning the Stacker II as it is the first amp in which I've been able to roll tubes.  My usual LCD-2 amp has been the Phoenix, which is as close as possible to straight-wire-with-gain and the lowest distortion possible.  In many respects, I prefer the Phoenix as it simply is more refined and presents a wider soundstage than any amp I've had here (such as the Luxman P-1 and Audiovalve RKV Mark II). However, I appreciate the sheer musicality of the Stacker, it having only the slightest lost of refinement compared to the Phoenix. The perfect amp, I reckon, would be a combination of both, but likely such an amp would cost a fortune (such as the Apex Pinnacle possibly).


 

 The Liquid Fire, IMO, comes close to the musicality of the Stacker but destroys it on refinement.  I think part of the musicality for me in the Stacker, however, has to do with the lush quality of the sound, especially in the mids, but I am starting to wonder if at least part of that quality is owed to the Stacker (at least with 6CG7 tubes) having a somewhat loose control.  It's like the sound gets presented in a very organic and pleasing way, but with clarity and detail getting a little smeared.  That being said, I wonder if any two Stackers sound quite the same, especially by this point in time.  My relationship with the Liquid Fire is relatively young and in the honeymoon phase, admittedly, but I think it is a wonderful fit so far on musicality and clarity without being clinical or gimicky.  It may not like long walks on the beach, but I can live with that.


----------



## KingStyles

Quote: 





> The Liquid Fire, IMO, comes close to the musicality of the Stacker but destroys it on refinement.  I think part of the musicality for me in the Stacker, however, has to do with the lush quality of the sound, especially in the mids, but I am starting to wonder if at least part of that quality is owed to the Stacker (at least with 6CG7 tubes) having a somewhat loose control.  It's like the sound gets presented in a very organic and pleasing way, but with clarity and detail getting a little smeared.  That being said, I wonder if any two Stackers sound quite the same, especially by this point in time.  My relationship with the Liquid Fire is relatively young and in the honeymoon phase, admittedly, but I think it is a wonderful fit so far on musicality and clarity without being clinical or gimicky.  It may not like long walks on the beach, but I can live with that.


 
   
  That is what I have come to realize. To get an organic , smooth sound, there is a compromise on clarity and detail. Like you said, it is a smearing of the notes which makes it more smooth.


----------



## adydula

Well I'am a licensed pilot and this rig kinda of looks very familiar to me...LOL...( for those that didnt get that....a cockpit!!).
   
  I have to admit it really does look cool and from the video it sure does neat things for sure.
   
  Way back when is the search for sonic perfection I bought one of the first commercial type CD decks the Denon DCD 3300, built like a tank with galvo outs etc (thats balanced outs) as well as the RCA and a very, very early optical output...we all wondered what is this thin, very fragile cable for...that kept falling out!!!
   
  The DCD 3300 had enough drive to push my amp and old PS Audio 200c...so all there was ....was the CD deck to the amp and some megabuck short as possible Audioquest cables and the cables between the deck and the amp were silver Litz cables.. the speakers were 180 pound each 6' tall Mirage M1's (1987 vintage)...and the sound was well really great....
   
  So what I always have looked for is the the least amount of stuff, circuity, connections etc between the source and the transducers that allow me as a human to relive the experience thats on the disk..
   
  I do have not issue with all the neat exotic amps for cans out there, but would hope it would not take all that 'stuff' to reproduce world class sound on my LCD2's.
   
  As an old timer growing up with the pain in the "axx" tube world, solid state was a dream come true...no heat, reliable,low distortion so its a real trip for me to see all the amps that are tube driven and all the hype etc...kind of makes me feel at home again!!
   
  Yup no bass, treble controls for me just record and master it well..and a straight line with gain...
   
  I have had some discussions about a Pete Millett Mosfet Max/Colin Toole amp design...a few people that have built this amp seem to think it plays very well with LCD2s from what I have heard...been thinking of DIY'ing this or the B22 and see how they play...good winter project.
   
  Sitting here listening to Thunder by S.M.V..via the Lyr (6BZ7's)...great bass cd the Lyr is doing very well with the LCD2s'.
   
  All the best
  Alex


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *adydula* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> So what I always have looked for is the the least amount of stuff, circuity, connections etc between the source and the transducers that allow me as a human to relive the experience thats on the disk..


 
   
  Quote: 





> ...been thinking of DIY'ing this or the* B22* and see how they play...


 
   
  Aren't these two statements somewhat at odds with each other?
   
  se


----------



## Wedge

The B22 is just about putting as much circuitry in the path as you can get in a headphone amp.


----------



## KingStyles

The least amount in the path?....... Wouldnt that be just a cmoy?


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





kingstyles said:


> The least amount in the path?....... Wouldnt that be just a cmoy?


 

 Not when you consider that an opamp has dozens of components inside. While they may be microscopically small and built on a single slab of silicon, they're not exactly "simple."
   
  se


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





kingstyles said:


> The least amount in the path?....... Wouldnt that be just a cmoy?


 


  The least amount in the path would be a live concert, no amplification?


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:  





> The least amount in the path would be a live concert, no amplification?


 

 That's cheating. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  se


----------



## Wedge

Actually, the least amount of components would be imagining the music inside your head, rather than listening to it.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





wedge said:


> Actually, the least amount of components would be imagining the music inside your head, rather than listening to it.


 

 That would be Beethoven, Mozart, Bach...?


----------



## Wedge

People's ears effect the actual sound, is all I am saying.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





wedge said:


> People's ears effect the actual sound, is all I am saying.


 

 This so true.  If you sit in front of a pair of speakers and just bend your ears forward you can hear the frequencies tilt upward.


----------



## khaos974

warriorant said:


> That would be Beethoven, Mozart, Bach...?




Most direct path indeed, direct transfer from the partition to the brain.

Just look at Beethoven, he simply skipped the ears part when he wrote the Ninth.


----------



## adydula

Yes they sound like they are at odds, but even a purist has to have open mind....lol...
   
  Being and electrical engineering type I am very much interested in the circuitry and the why various designers employ the stuff they do...
   
  I just like building stuff and it keeps me busy and them I get to see what all that stuff does good or bad...
   
  Keeps proving the point to the person it matters the most to ....thats "me"....keep it simple.
   
  The vioelectric comment about hearing just the tube if fine, but i dont want to even hear the tube or anything else...straight wire with gain ...
   
  I think we all agree that our source matrerial is all over the floor...lots of good and lots of mediocre stuff and when we start using electronics, tubes etc to make up for
  one or the other...well.....go figure.
   
  I want a setup that is essentially flat.....so the source will be exposed for what it is....If I could wire a speaker or set of cans to the cd itself and hear the music that would be perfect!!!
   
  Headphones and speakers are different animals...so things like the amp shown a few posts earlier baffle me in that it trying to get the ambiance of the recording or getting cans to sound like speakers...for that cost I would buy a really nice set of speakers and be done with it?
   
  Again not raining on anyones parade...just look for the least in the chain, so you indeed can have the ultimate eexperience with what you have.
   
  If you get the flatest frequency response from an amp with tons of circuitry, my hats off to you, but I have to ask why?
  Why does it have to be som complex? or Does it?
   
  I like the concert idea...everytime I go to a live concert and come home I am so disappointed with the the home illusion setup....the longer from the concert that better it gets again!
   
  The fewest pieces, connections etc...CMOY??? Hmmmm. (smile!)
   
  Has anyone tried a CMOY with the LCD2's?
   
  All the best!
  Alex


----------



## JIGF

Quote: 





wedge said:


> Actually, the least amount of components would be imagining the music inside your head, rather than listening to it.


 

 Oh, I think I could go crazy by doing that too much.
   
  You ever read Musicophilia by Oliver Sacks? There are some terrifying things for audiophiles on that book.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





jigf said:


> Oh, I think I could go crazy by doing that too much.
> 
> You ever read Musicophilia by Oliver Sacks? There are some terrifying things for audiophiles on that book.


 

 I've read it.  Good book!


----------



## JIGF

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> I've read it.  Good book!


 

 Indeed.
   
  Careful with that N word in your sig.


----------



## TruBrew

There is currently a 9090DB for sale on my local CL. They want $750 for it and a pair of Bose 901's. I have no idea what he wants for just the receiver, but I shouldn't ask. I don't have the money for anything new. Today was my last day of work; I will be living on my savings for the next two years. I do really want it though. Its hard to see what condition the one for sale is in, but yours looks amazing.
  
  Quote: 





skylab said:


> I mostly use my LCD-2's these days with this vintage beauty:
> 
> 
> 
> Completely re-capped/restored Sansui 9090DB, which is a very powerful vintage 70's receiver.  The sound from the LCD-2 from this Sansui is remarkably good - so good I prefer it over several dedicated headphone amps selling for more than $1K...


 


  On the topic of Vinage receiver and the LCD-2, my SX-950 sounds great for the price. I wish I had my Lyr still so I could do a comparison. After the money I spent having the Pioneer restored, they are close to the same price. I have been listening to it with the LCD-2 for the last few hours now. I use the Pioneer for my larger speakers, and short headphone sessions. I don't want to warm up the tubes for a 30 minute listen. My point is 30 minutes turned into a few hours. 
   
  Skylab, could you mention a few amps you like the Sansui better than? My fried plans on buying a pair of LCD-2's and an amp. The 9090 may not be a bad option for him, but I think he said he wanted something that would not take up too much space on his desk. I am doing some research for him, because whatever he buys I get to listen to.


----------



## WarriorAnt

I've been listening to the Sansui AU 505 all weekend with the LCD's.   It's definetly a keeper.  I'm going to see if I can find someone to refurbish it for me I like it that much.  I could live with it and the LCD if it were my only amp.


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





adydula said:


> Yes they sound like they are at odds, but even a purist has to have open mind....lol...


 
   
  Fair 'nuff.
   
  I was just trying to reconcile the two statements you'd made.
   
  Quote: 





> If you get the flatest frequency response from an amp with tons of circuitry, my hats off to you, but I have to ask why?
> Why does it have to be som complex? or Does it?


 
   
  I've found that generally the most complex designs come from those who approach such things from an almost pure engineering perspective. The engineer tends to look a things as just numbers and how they can be improved just for the sake of being able to do it.
   
  The B22 is a good example of this. It was designed entirely using simulation software. It was only listened to after the fact to make sure there was nothing wrong with the actual physical build. It was purely an engineering exercise.
   
  Contrast this to the design of something like a single-ended triode tube amp. No matter what you do you're not going to achieve the same kind of numbers something like the B22 can deliver. But then such amps typically aren't designed from a purely engineering perspective. The subjective sound quality is what guides the design. Changes aren't made because the simulation software spits out a bad number, but because the designer doesn't like the resulting sound of a particular design choice.
   
  Of course both of these approaches are valid as each designer is achieving their desired goals which are no one else's business but the designer's.
   
  I just use them for illustrative purposes.
   
  se


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> Since when have looks been more important than performance?  This amp has been reported as not an ideal solution for Orthos, but it sure looks cool and has wonderful features..


 

 It wasn't about looks, I was just putting an amp with a lot of "addidtions" up there, as the Phonitor has quite a few sound-shaping features and lots of circuitry to accommodate that that Alex said he wouldn't be interested in, more of a jab at the amp than anything else 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
   
  Originally Posted by *adydula* 


  
  I would think we would want amps to be just that.....amps...with no addidtions of any kind except for amplification.
  This can be had with the minimum of circuitry...but we sure have lots of amps that have lots of circuitry...makes for interesting
  comparisons....straight line with gain.
   
  Alex


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





grokit said:


> It wasn't about looks, I was just putting an amp with a lot of "addidtions" up there, as the Phonitor has quite a few sound-shaping features and lots of circuitry to accommodate that that Alex said he wouldn't be interested in, more of a jab at the amp than anything else
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  I'm pretty much of the same mind as Alex, although I'm not shy with using tone shaping on a recording that doesn't sound good to my ear.  I always want to have the option to alter things from neutral when the situation calls for it.  Personally, I like to do that in the digital domain and keep the amp as pure and minimal as possible.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





grokit said:


> It wasn't about looks, I was just putting an amp with a lot of "addidtions" up there, as the Phonitor has quite a few sound-shaping features and lots of circuitry to accommodate that that Alex said he wouldn't be interested in, more of a jab at the amp than anything else
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  That is a sweet looking amp.  Maybe I'm old school but I'm always a sucker for a nice D'Arsonval meter movement. If only the needles had a nice spade tip then it would definitely be love for me.
  Phonitor recently gave one of these away in a contest.  The winner then promptly sold it here on Head-Fi.  I should have been the winner. I Definitely would not have sold it ever. I mean you win something like that you keep it.
   
   
  
   


  Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> I'm pretty much of the same mind as Alex, although I'm not shy with using tone shaping on a recording that doesn't sound good to my ear.  I always want to have the option to alter things from neutral when the situation calls for it.  Personally, I like to do that in the digital domain and keep the amp as pure and minimal as possible.


 

 Try and try and try as I might I just can't EQ anything I listen to.  Over the years I've EQ'd many a mix for television but I never could EQ something in the playback of my music rig for personal use. This is just a personal quirk of my own doing because I cannot figure out why I won't apply EQ.   Maybe it is out of respect for the guy who did the final mix and not wanting to step on his work.  I don't know.  I mean when I give someone one of my own musical compositions I don't want to hear that it was EQ'd later because I spent hours mixing, EQing, compressing frequencies with a multiband compressor or whatever I felt had to be done.  In the end I guess thats the way I want it to be presented. The way I made it.  It sort of upsets me to hear someone has changed it even though I know they may be compensating for their equipment or just accommodating their own tastes.
   
  EQ is a tough call though.  People want more of something from their system or feel a recording is lacking one way or another so EQ comes into play.  Really who knows how anything is supposed to sound.  Every recording studio is different and once a track leaves any given studio it is never going to sound the same way again unless it is played back again on the same exact equipment and thats not going to happen.  The track goes out into the word and gets played back on all kinds of systems come what may. It's all interpretation by a world of various equipment afterwards. 
   
  But as far as doing stuff in the digital domain like EQ or compression I'm still a bit old school.  If I had my way I'd use a very well made outboard EQ rather than a something inside a piece of software.  I'm still not convinced you can get the same control with software.  Same with compression.  I don't have any empirical proof otherwise it's just something I feel.   Same goes with any software that claims to bring "tube" sound to a signal.  I just don't think that can be done with software.  The only way in my opinion to process a signal to give it "tube" signature is to send the signal through a tube.  
   
  But now that I think about it maybe the Phonitor wouldn't be right for me.  The more I look at it the more I'm thinking this is not a piece of gear so much for playback in the home but for out in the field. It sort of seems like a piece of gear that says use me in the field professionally but go ahead and distract yourself at home with me also.  Maybe thats why I don't EQ at home.  It's just too distracting.


----------



## khaos974

warriorant said:


> That is a sweet looking amp.  Maybe I'm old school but I'm always a sucker for a nice D'Arsonval meter movement. If only the needles had a nice spade tip then it would definitely be love for me.
> Phonitor recently gave one of these away in a contest.  The winner then promptly sold it here on Head-Fi.  I should have been the winner. I Definitely would not have sold it ever. I mean you win something like that you keep it.




Not if you actually need money for other living expenses, which was the case for the said Head-fier.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





khaos974 said:


> Not if you actually need money for other living expenses, which was the case for the said Head-fier.


 

 Was it you khaos974?  Money for living expenses?  What kind of audiophile are you?  Real audiophiles go with out food, water and even shoes to get the sound they need... thats no excuse.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> That is a sweet looking amp.
> 
> Try and try and try as I might I just can't EQ anything I listen to.
> 
> ...


 
   
  I think that the Phonitor looks badass, especially that new black version. From what I have read, it is made for a sound engineer to take from studio to studio to be able to simulate in his headphones the exact monitoring environment that he/she is used to, from near-field speaker placement to crossfeed, center imaging, etc. It would certainly be nice to fool around with in a balanced system, as it has XLR in _and out_, to pass the signal through from the source to another component downstream; it is very accommodating that way.
   
  As far as EQ goes I am with you, except that I have always shied away from hardware EQ's as well. The problem for me is that whenever I try it to tweak a song, it becomes "all wrong" for the next one that comes along, or if not the one after that or the next album or whatever. I would rather find a tweak that improves the overall SQ than try to "fix" the frequency balance for a particular song/album/genre or whatever, it just becomes a PITA.
   
  I just was playing around with all the PureMusic plugins and the ones that worked for me were like that, overall tweaks like dynamics processing and multiband compression. It has both a 10-band and a 31-band graphic EQ that that I tried for a bit, then quickly put back on the virtual "shelf". The parametric EQ was kind of cool, as it featured what seemed like a combination of crossfeed and center imaging enhancement, but ultimately I turned that one off as well.


----------



## khaos974

warriorant said:


> Was it you khaos974?  Money for living expenses?  What kind of audiophile are you?  Real audiophiles go with out food, water and even shoes to get the sound they need... thats no excuse.




It was keanex who needed the money to fix his car. 
Me? I'm happily listening to my LCD-2 rev2.


----------



## RedBull

Quote:


warriorant said:


> It has been an interesting comparison between the Sansui 505 and the V200.    It is all a matter of refinement.  The V200 is in another league in terms of refinement in every area where it counts.  It simply has more control and finesse.  That is something you appreciate when your'e listening to the V200 and you experience and appreciate this finesse as it is being delivered to you.  All those refinements add up to what is a high end headphone amp.    In the light of those observations the Sansui is not to be humiliated as something crude or unmannered. Overall it also has so many of the things that count for a musical experience that are to be found in the more refined higher end of amplification.  Things are just not as refined.  Not crude, just not as refined.  Musically pleasant though, and not disappointing.
> 
> I would say if you cannot afford a high end amp for your cans then explore something like a vintage integrated amp or receiver.  I love the look of the vintage receivers but I detest todays FM scene so much and how pitifully bad FM programming has become since it's advent in the 60's that I never listen to it.  I sold my high end Magnun Dynalab analog tuner, my Magnum Dynalab RF amp and my rooftop motorized directional antenna.     So although I love the look of those cool receivers I'm leaning more towards the integrated vintage.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Thanks so much for the info once more time, the link, the tips you provided can be handy


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> That is a sweet looking amp.  Maybe I'm old school but I'm always a sucker for a nice D'Arsonval meter movement. If only the needles had a nice spade tip then it would definitely be love for me.
> Phonitor recently gave one of these away in a contest.  The winner then promptly sold it here on Head-Fi.  I should have been the winner. I Definitely would not have sold it ever. I mean you win something like that you keep it.
> 
> Try and try and try as I might I just can't EQ anything I listen to.  Over the years I've EQ'd many a mix for television but I never could EQ something in the playback of my music rig for personal use. This is just a personal quirk of my own doing because I cannot figure out why I won't apply EQ.   Maybe it is out of respect for the guy who did the final mix and not wanting to step on his work.  I don't know.  I mean when I give someone one of my own musical compositions I don't want to hear that it was EQ'd later because I spent hours mixing, EQing, compressing frequencies with a multiband compressor or whatever I felt had to be done.  In the end I guess thats the way I want it to be presented. The way I made it.  It sort of upsets me to hear someone has changed it even though I know they may be compensating for their equipment or just accommodating their own tastes.
> ...


 
  Although I'm not shy about using EQ when I think it's needed, I only use it maybe 1% of the time, yes, that's correct, one song out of 100.  I tend not to buy stuff that is not well recorded and mixed in the first place.


----------



## adydula

There was someone that has tried some software or plug in that simulates the speaker like presentation for headphones u can get a trial and then you have to pay etc .
  Will have to look that up again...its a plug in that needs VPN support but seems like a poor mans Phonitor...ala software.
   
  On the B22 being designed from a simulation and it has really great numbers?
   
  Could you plug in other amp designs and see what their numbers are??
   
  What numbers?
   
  Freq response, distortion, seperation, quietness??
   
  I was thinking is you look at the input plot over frequency range and amplitude and compare to same on output how would this look?
   
  Anyhow...if i had a Phonitor I sure would play with it!!
   
  Anyone use a Pete Millet amp with their LCD2's?
   
  Alex


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





grokit said:


> I think that the Phonitor looks badass, especially that new black version. From what I have read, it is made for a sound engineer to take from studio to studio to be able to simulate in his headphones the exact monitoring environment that he/she is used to, from near-field speaker placement to crossfeed, center imaging, etc. It would certainly be nice to fool around with in a balanced system, as it has XLR in _and out_, to pass the signal through from the source to another component downstream; it is very accommodating that way.
> 
> As far as EQ goes I am with you, except that I have always shied away from hardware EQ's as well. The problem for me is that whenever I try it to tweak a song, it becomes "all wrong" for the next one that comes along, or if not the one after that or the next album or whatever. I would rather find a tweak that improves the overall SQ than try to "fix" the frequency balance for a particular song/album/genre or whatever, it just becomes a PITA.
> 
> I just was playing around with all the PureMusic plugins and the ones that worked for me were like that, overall tweaks like dynamics processing and multiband compression. It has both a 10-band and a 31-band graphic EQ that that I tried for a bit, then quickly put back on the virtual "shelf". The parametric EQ was kind of cool, as it featured what seemed like a combination of crossfeed and center imaging enhancement, but ultimately I turned that one off as well.


 

 It does have a badass look for sure.  
   
  I have 135 AU plug ins that I use with a DAW (Garageband & Logic).  Pure music is the only player I haven't gotten yet but it's on the list next.    Fidelia allows plugins but I never consider using them for playback.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> Although I'm not shy about using EQ when I think it's needed, I only use it maybe 1% of the time, yes, that's correct, one song out of 100.  I tend not to buy stuff that is not well recorded and mixed in the first place.


 


  That's because there is so much stuff that is not well recorded or mixed well.  Recordings are the weakest link in all this.


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





trubrew said:


> There is currently a 9090DB for sale on my local CL. They want $750 for it and a pair of Bose 901's. I have no idea what he wants for just the receiver, but I shouldn't ask. I don't have the money for anything new. Today was my last day of work; I will be living on my savings for the next two years. I do really want it though. Its hard to see what condition the one for sale is in, but yours looks amazing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I think the Leben CS300XS, Decware Mini-Torii, and Trafomatic Head One are all marginally better with the LCD-2 than my Pioneer or Sansui receivers.  But only marginally.  And of those only the Mini Torii really drives the HE-6 well, whereas both of the vintage receivers do.


----------



## jax

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *kwkarth*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
       Quote:


warriorant said:


> That's because there is so much stuff that is not well recorded or mixed well.  Recordings are the weakest link in all this.


 

 Um, that response contradicts the OP, it does not support it (though it seems to be suggesting that it does).  Am I missing something?
   
  For me, recordings will be just what they are.  They are set in stone, as it were.  As far as the chain of reproduction used to derive their content, I would not consider them a link at all.  Just the raison d'etre for the chain of components used to translate that object into music.  I'd agree, it's the link to the original performance, but once it is there on vinyl or silver disc or in zeros and ones, it is an entirely fixed quantity, and not a variable (assuming the same vinyl, disc, or file is being compared).  Unless someone remasters the from the original tapes, it is not going to change so I guess I don't pay much attention to it as a "link" unless there are alternatives available (or in the case of vinyl it does become a link in that dirt on the surface demands attention - that would be an exception).  If you add eq, you do not change the recording, you change the way the chain of components sees the recording.  Or you simply color (alter) it with one of those components.  The recording remains exactly as it always was - not a variable in the chain, and not a link to me for that reason.  We have no control over altering the recording (unless we happen to be the engineer).  In enjoying music reproduced in our homes, that is the one thing that is entirely fixed (unless you scratch or otherwise abuse the LP or CD, or reduce the digital file to a lossy format where it no longer has the same zeros and ones representing it).  I have absolutely no expectations of recreating a perfect experience of an original performance.  Or rather I have no intention of driving myself crazy with unreasonable expectations.  I know many people like that and it occurs to me as a tremendous waste of time and energy.  So I guess I effectively remove that component from the picture.  Here's an illustration of that trivial pursuit:
   
  An Absolute Sound official logo: wear it proudly!


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





skylab said:


> I think the Leben CS300XS, Decware Mini-Torii, and Trafomatic Head One are all marginally better with the LCD-2 than my Pioneer or Sansui receivers.  But only marginally.  And of those only the Mini Torii really drives the HE-6 well, whereas both of the vintage receivers do.


 
  This is a truth I'm beginning to realize.  The designers of the vintage stuff in the 70's were serious guys.  They made that gear for real listening and not for the primary concern of outselling the competition. I believe for them it was a pride in design and engineering and it has made the vintage gear able to rise to the challenge.      My Sansui AU 505 is beginning to scare me.  I definitely want to get one of the higher models in the Sansui integrated line up now and when I do I hope I'm not afraid to face the truth I might hear.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Recordings are not set in stone.  When they are remastered and often remixed in the process of remastering the recording changes.  Even the application of EQ afterwards changes the recording.   It is the performance that does not change.


----------



## jax

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> Recordings are not set in stone.  When they are remastered and often remixed in the process of remastering the recording changes.  Even the application of EQ afterwards changes the recording.   It is the performance that does not change.


 

 The recording does not change at all when you apply EQ.  The only thing that changes is how it becomes altered via a component in the chain (which is indeed entirely variable), and perceived by the listener in the end.  The recording is not a variable.  It is like a table.  It is exactly what it is.  Though you might view a table with rose colored glasses, the table itself does not change.


----------



## jax

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> Recordings are not set in stone.  When they are remastered and often remixed in the process of remastering the recording changes.  Even the application of EQ afterwards changes the recording.   It is the performance that does not change.


 

 Also, I mentioned remixing and remastering as the only way it could possibly change.  Assuming we are comparing the same recording on the same media, it is fixed and not a variable - therefore I dismiss it as a link in the chain.  If a remastered version of something is available then it becomes a variable in that you could choose another version, but again, assuming we're talking about the same recording and the same media, it is as fixed as a white coffee table in form and structure.  It will not change.  The only thing that will change is the way components in a chain interpret it and convert it into sound.  If we are listening with speakers in a room, then the room and everything in it would also be a variable, and a very weak link, IMO.  The recording remains exactly the same.


----------



## jax

Quote:  





>





> It is the performance that does not change.


 
   
   
  Yes, I'd agree, the performance is also fixed in some respects.  Notes, timing, tempo, blah, blah, blah - it all happened a specific way.  How it is pereceived is an entirely different story.  Did one experience the performance at 10 feet, 20 feet, 40 feet?  In what room, with what in it?  Where you to the left or to the right?  What was between you and the performers? Or between the performers and the mike? Which mikes were used and how many? Hell, you know better than me there are infinite variables in either how we experience the performance, or how it is interpreted by the mike, recorded and then mixed.  But yes, the performances is fixed once it has happened.  Just like the recording we place in our player, or on our turntable is entirely fixed in its form.  We can't go backwards and change its content somehow once it is in our home. It is entirely set in stone and most certainly not a variable as far as immediately using it to listen to music.  Everything we use to translate it's content is a variable, but it remains exactly what it is, and will not change unless we physically damage it or alter it.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> That's because there is so much stuff that is not well recorded or mixed well.  Recordings are the weakest link in all this.


 
  Sounds like maybe I didn't make myself clear.  I DO NOT USE EQ for 99% of my recording playback, as I too, would prefer to hear what the producers intended things to sound like.  For only 1% of my stuff I will use EQ.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





adydula said:


> There was someone that has tried some software or plug in that simulates the speaker like presentation for headphones u can get a trial and then you have to pay etc .
> Will have to look that up again...its a plug in that needs VPN support but seems like a poor mans Phonitor...ala software.


 

 The AU plugins that come with Pure Music are all free from Apple, the one called MatrixReverb has a bunch of preset room simulations, like chamber, hall, and room, all in S/M/L variations plus cathedral and something called plate.

  
  Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> Sounds like maybe I didn't make myself clear.  I DO NOT USE EQ for 99% of my recording playback, as I too, would prefer to hear what the producers intended things to sound like.  For only 1% of my stuff I will use EQ.


 

 I hear you loud and clear 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  I could probably benefit from EQ on a small portion of the music that I listen to as well but I still don't, as I am evidently a lazy masochist


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





skylab said:


> I mostly use my LCD-2's these days with this vintage beauty:
> 
> 
> 
> Completely re-capped/restored Sansui 9090DB, which is a very powerful vintage 70's receiver.  The sound from the LCD-2 from this Sansui is remarkably good - so good I prefer it over several dedicated headphone amps selling for more than $1K...


 

 SkyLab what have you done!   The price of a Sansui 9090DB on eBay has SKY ROCKETED!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Actually one just sold that looks like it was a steal for the price. 
  http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250861815089&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT#ht_4768wt_1165


----------



## LiqTenExp

If anyone is in the NJ area and is interested in listening to the LCD-2 on anything from an Apex Pinnacle to CMoy amp stop by!  It will be from 10-6 in East Hanover.  See link in my sig


----------



## Buttsack

Quote: 





currawong said:


> What I appreciate is having headphone amp that also is dedicated pre-amp, as all I have to do is add a power amp to my system and it becomes a speaker rig.


 


  That's pretty much exactly what I'm after. Now can anyone suggest a good pre-amp for the LCD-2's under $3000? Thanks


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





buttsack said:


> That's pretty much exactly what I'm after. Now can anyone suggest a good pre-amp for the LCD-2's under $3000? Thanks


 

 There are plenty. You want a tube based amp or solid state? I use the RSA Apache and it's a great pre-amp as well with multiple balanced and unbalanced inputs and outputs for both headphone and pre-amp.


----------



## Buttsack

That's just it. I have no idea if I want a solid state, tube or hybrid. I've heard nothing other than standard headphones so I have nothing to go off. I just want an amp that works best with the LCD-2's.
   
  Have you heard many other amps other than the RSA Apache with the LCD-2's?


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





buttsack said:


> That's just it. I have no idea if I want a solid state, tube or hybrid. I've heard nothing other than standard headphones so I have nothing to go off. I just want an amp that works best with the LCD-2's.
> 
> Have you heard many other amps other than the RSA Apache with the LCD-2's?


 
  I think you might converge on a solution faster if you can help establish some boundaries for your search.  You want solid state, yes?  What price range?  Any country of origin restrictions? etc...


----------



## jax

Quote: 





buttsack said:


> That's just it. I have no idea if I want a solid state, tube or hybrid. I've heard nothing other than standard headphones so I have nothing to go off. I just want an amp that works best with the LCD-2's.
> 
> Have you heard many other amps other than the RSA Apache with the LCD-2's?


 

 For $3K you've got a pretty big selection that falls under that price ceiling.  I can highly recommend the Apex Peak Volcano (hybrid) as an ideal playmate for LCD-2's.  The Violectric V181 (balanced SS)  I use is also a great choice, as is, the alternative V200 (SE SS) by all reports here (no direct experience with the latter). 
   
  If you're looking for a preamp as well, you might also want to consider going the integrated amp route and look at possibilities like the Leben, or Cary or perhaps Decware.  I have no experience to share there, but there's been some very positive experiences posted on that route too.


----------



## grokit

If I had $3k to spend on an amp for the LCD-2 I would try out a Liquid Fire while they are still "only" $2800.


----------



## strannik

If you could pour $2.8k into an amp, I don't think the extra $450 it costs now would stop you. 
   
  The idea of getting a LF keeps spinning in the back of my head, though the _"The Liquid Fire Headphone Amplifier is just the first of what Cavalli Audio has planned for top notch audio products."_ is a little frightening. Imagine spending 3k on an amp, and something better comes out right after.
  
  Quote: 





grokit said:


> If I had $3k to spend on an amp for the LCD-2 I would try out a Liquid Fire while they are still "only" $2800.


----------



## KingStyles

Quote: 





> If you could pour $2.8k into an amp, I don't think the extra $450 it costs now would stop you.
> 
> The idea of getting a LF keeps spinning in the back of my head, though the _"The Liquid Fire Headphone Amplifier is just the first of what Cavalli Audio has planned for top notch audio products."_ is a little frightening. Imagine spending 3k on an amp, and something better comes out right after.


 
   
  I know what you mean..... bought a BA fully loaded and then the Pinnacle comes out.


----------



## floydfan33

After several listens of a variety of material, I have come to the conclusion that the LCD-2's have to be the most forgiving headphone made.
   
  I have been back and forth between the Lyr, Mini-I and the Fiio E9/E7 combo, and I am hard pressed to pick a favourite. With other headphones, no problem.......HD800 Lyr wins......Grado HF-2 Mini-I wins.
   
  I don't have a golden ear by any measure, but I love the Audez'e no matter what amplification I use, and feel the full range and dynamics are reproduced without much compromise.
   
  Now I'm torn, because I'm shopping for something solid state to go with my on order LA7000's, and I am wondering if I need it?


----------



## Clayton SF

Quote: 





strannik said:


> If you could pour $2.8k into an amp, I don't think the extra $450 it costs now would stop you.
> 
> The idea of getting a LF keeps spinning in the back of my head, though the _"The Liquid Fire Headphone Amplifier is just the first of what Cavalli Audio has planned for top notch audio products."_ is a little frightening. Imagine spending 3k on an amp, and something better comes out right after.


 
  Those were my exact thoughts when the Cavalli Audio website has this ad that says: Coming Soon. In the Fall... eek! A Cliffhanger!


----------



## sachu

one can live their whole life waiting for the next best thing being afraid that something better is going to take its place.
   
  And am not even saying that might be the case here..at least i don't think so.
   
  The LF is a cracker of an amplifier. it COULD be the amp that does it for you, or maybe not.
   
  Give it a listen if you get a chance.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





sachu said:


> one can live their whole life waiting for the next best thing being afraid that something better is going to take its place.
> 
> And am not even saying that might be the case here..at least i don't think so.
> 
> ...


 
  Well said!


----------



## K3cT

I've had the chance to try the Apex Peak/Volcano fitted with the Shuguang Treasure Tube yesterday. Truthfully I don't think it's a best match for the LCD2, the midbass is slightly TOO exaggerated so overall the lower frequencies sound a bit loose and undefined while the upper midrange is a bit etched so vocals may sound a little harsh. On the plus side, the amplifier has a great clarity  and it sounds more solid-state than tube. Overall the Peak/Volcano reminds me of a super-charged Pete Millet's Starving Student Millet Hybrid.


----------



## Wedge

Shuguang Treasure Tube, probably isn't the best match for the LCD-2.


----------



## Kremer930

I agree with the comment about not always waiting for the next new greatest to come out ... You would probably not be that happy having spent $3k on an amp and then seeing what the Schiit statement amp does for 1/3 of the price. 

That would leave enough change to buy some JH iems and a pair of LCD2.2. Hmmmm


----------



## SHAHZADA123

Quote: 





kremer930 said:


> I agree with the comment about not always waiting for the next new greatest to come out ... You would probably not be that happy having spent $3k on an amp and then seeing what the Schiit statement amp does for 1/3 of the price.
> 
> That would leave enough change to buy some JH iems and a pair of LCD2.2. Hmmmm


 
  well said too


----------



## RedBull

I think latest release is not always the best.  When HD800 is released, I thought I would like the newer one better than the old HD650 that I like, but my ears prefer the older one, so don't be afraid ...
   
  Well said?


----------



## Buttsack

I'm not necessarily after the latest and greatest, probably more so a tried and true amp to match the LCD-2's. I'll really have to find somewhere I can try out some different types of sound to see what my ears like. I'm from Australia so if anyone here is around the Central Coast, NSW and can help me out I'd be very greatful. There's no high end audio shops around here so it's a bit hard to get started not knowing what I like.
   
  Would the Apex Peak be the best solution for me since it's neutral and if I change the tube I chane the sound? Does it have to be paired with the Volcano?


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





sachu said:


> one can live their whole life waiting for the next best thing being afraid that something better is going to take its place.


 

 And that is what the used gear market is all about!


----------



## K3cT

Quote: 





wedge said:


> Shuguang Treasure Tube, probably isn't the best match for the LCD-2.


 


  What tube would you recommend? The stock one sounded even worse than the Shuguang... 
   
  But curiously the same tube seems to work very well with the HD800 and HE500. I just thought that it's not such a great match with the LCD2.


----------



## WarriorAnt

There is a used Leben for sale in the FS forum that I saw last night.  I almost purchased it for my double nickel today but I let it go.  But I tossed and turned all night over  the decision.


----------



## Buttsack

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> There is a used Leben for sale in the FS forum that I saw last night.  I almost purchased it for my double nickel today but I let it go.  But I tossed and turned all night over  the decision.


 

 I noticed that one but it's only $400 cheaper than a brand new one I seen on ebay.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





buttsack said:


> I noticed that one but it's only $400 cheaper than a brand new one I seen on ebay.


 
  Plus there was the split shipping cost from Japan.    They sell new Leben CS300XS on ebay?


----------



## Clayton SF

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> Plus there was the split shipping cost from Japan.    They sell new Leben CS300XS on ebay?


 
  I'm not sure which version this is but the Japanese version is 100V. It may or may not matter to some people when used with a step down transformer.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





clayton sf said:


> I'm not sure which version this is but the Japanese version is 100V. It may or may not matter to some people when used with a step down transformer.


 
  Yeah that was a bit confusing.  It is the 100V version so I guess I can rationally walk away now!


----------



## rudi0504

I have the chance from my friend his brand new Peak and Vulcano Amp to try at home.
   
  My Source : Imac 27 " woith all WAV music File
   
  Dac : Meier Corda Stage DAC
   
  Head Amp : Peak Vulcano
                    Tube Shuguang 50 Years
   
  Cable : USB Cable ACR Silver Reference II
   
             RCA ACR Silver Cable
   
  Headphones : HD 800, T 1 , LCD 2 R 2, HD 650, LCD 2 R 1 SOLD
   
   
  My Personal Impresion :
   
  This Peak Vulcano sound very good woth all my Dynamic Driver Headphones 
   
  The First time i hear with my new LCD 2 R 2 was NOT so open, i thought Peak Vulcano was defect
   
  My Friend Purrin from Head Fi said Shugang Tube neeed at least 400 Hours to bring his Character.
   
  Today i have listen Peak Vulcano about 15 hours and i change my Cable from Cooper to Silver
   
  ( Before USB was Wire World Ultra Violet 5,2 and RCA was Burmester cooper cable
   
    Now USB is ACR Reference II and RCA ACR Silver Reference )
   
  I am so surprise , Peak Vulcano Sound very fantastic to my LCD 2 R 2
   
  High : So open and clean and detail, i can hear the Ambiente from Jazz at the pawn Shop so good, that i never heard before from my       
           my LCD 2 R 2
           The Vibraphone so clean and clear
   
  MID : Sound so sweet and clear , you can hear the voice from Al Somma and Stacey Kent so good
   
  BASS : is very deep and Clean  and more define compare my Old LCD 2 R 1
   
  I hope this can help my frineds in head Fi
   
  I love this Peak Vulcano to drive my Headphones Collections
   
  Cheers


----------



## Wedge

Quote: 





k3ct said:


> What tube would you recommend? The stock one sounded even worse than the Shuguang...
> 
> But curiously the same tube seems to work very well with the HD800 and HE500. I just thought that it's not such a great match with the LCD2.


 

 I love the Fivre 6SN7GT and Marconi Osram B65.  I also like the Mullard ECC32 a lot.  I don't think that the LCD-2 sounds its best with the Peak, but I will say that I like the combo quite a bit, just not with every tube.
   
  Quote: 





buttsack said:


> I'm not necessarily after the latest and greatest, probably more so a tried and true amp to match the LCD-2's. I'll really have to find somewhere I can try out some different types of sound to see what my ears like. I'm from Australia so if anyone here is around the Central Coast, NSW and can help me out I'd be very greatful. There's no high end audio shops around here so it's a bit hard to get started not knowing what I like.
> 
> Would the Apex Peak be the best solution for me since it's neutral and if I change the tube I chane the sound? Does it have to be paired with the Volcano?


 

 It doesn't have to be paired with the Volcano, but I think its best with the Volcano.  As far as hybrids go the Peak is a very well designed and excellent sounding amplifier.  Its great to be able to roll tubes as well.
   
  I am actually borrowing Todd's Pinnacle this week and I definitely love what I hear.


----------



## adydula

Todays great stuff will be still great tomorrow....its just the new stuff might be greater!!!
   
  Aint technology wonderful....and transistors thought they would kill tubes!
   
  (BIG SMILE)....
   
  Alex
   
  Listening to Josefine Cronholm "Ibis"   thanks to Warrior Ant....gee can it get any better than this......???


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





rudi0504 said:


> I have the chance from my friend his brand new Peak and Vulcano Amp to try at home.
> 
> My Source : Imac 27 " woith all WAV music File
> 
> ...


 
   

  USB was Wire World Ultra Violet 5,2   Now USB is ACR Reference II.

   

  I'm real interested in these 2 cables.  Can you switch back to the USB Wire World Ultra Violet 5,2 and see if you still like it in the system?


----------



## strannik

True, but the only reason that would make me purchase LF would also be the same reason that would make regret that purchase if something better comes along. I already love my current setup, I'm sure it can be a lot better, but that path seems to be endless. Time for a small head-fi vacation perhaps?
   
  Quote: 





sachu said:


> one can live their whole life waiting for the next best thing being afraid that something better is going to take its place.
> 
> And am not even saying that might be the case here..at least i don't think so.
> 
> ...


----------



## sachu

Do what makes you happy man. everything else is secondary.
   
  I wish i could divest some of the amps and other audio gear in my inventory.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





strannik said:


> True, but the only reason that would make me purchase LF would also be the same reason that would make regret that purchase if something better comes along. I already love my current setup, I'm sure it can be a lot better, but that path seems to be endless. Time for a small head-fi vacation perhaps?


 
  STAY with what your ear loves.  There are better amps and sources out there but they may change that thing you love so much about your current setup.  Sometimes it's not the money you throw at a rig but the money you didn't.  I learned this the hard expensive way with speaker rigs.  I had enough Krell amps to fund a third world country and in the end it was the very first and smallest Krell amp I had owned that I loved the most.  The hardest thing can be to STOP upgrading particularly if your happy.  It's almost like a gambler at a casino.  when your'e up in winnings you have to know when to walk away.


----------



## Clayton SF

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> STAY with what your ear loves.  There are better amps and sources out there but they may change that thing you love so much about your current setup.  Sometimes it's not the money you throw at a rig but the money you didn't.  I learned this the hard expensive way with speaker rigs.  I had enough Krell amps to fund a third world country and in the end it was the very first and smallest Krell amp I had owned that I loved the most.  _*The hardest thing can be to STOP upgrading*_ particularly if your happy.  It's almost like a gambler at a casino.  _*when your'e up in winnings you have to know when to walk away. *_


 
_*You bet!*_ Exactly!


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





redbull said:


> I think latest release is not always the best.  When HD800 is released, I thought I would like the newer one better than the old HD650 that I like, but my ears prefer the older one


 
   
  I am finding more enjoyment with the later issue HD800 (s/n 109xx) than the earlier issue HD800 (s/n 14xx).
   
   
  Quote: 





sachu said:


> Do what makes you happy man. everything else is secondary.


 

 This.


----------



## adydula

I just took my wonderful Lyr offline and put my SOHAii amp back online...this is a DIY Alex Cavalli design that I have completed a few months back and am in the process of selling it.
   
  But I wanted to listen to it again after 50 hrs on the Lyr...and right now it sounds VERY good to me...like and old friend....
   
  I would recommend this amp to be used with the LYR without hesitation...again listening to the Josefine Chronholm Ibis cd...the piano notes are just wondeful full of rich harmonics....her voice is beautiful.
   
  Gee I just might take this on off the for sale list!!
   
  Alex
   
  Tubes in this hybrid are EH12AU7A/ECC82  matched set.


----------



## sachu

If your heater supply can support it, run a pair of RCA 6CG7 cleartops  in there and see what its all about. If you are running stock heater supply, look at the following link to beef it up to 600mA so you can run the 6CG7s.
   
  BOutique 6922s or 6DJ8 will work great too in that amp again assuming your heater supply can handle the load.
   
  TUbes in the SOHA make an immense difference.
   
  Personally i don't care much for the 12AU7s. 
   
http://www.cavalliaudio.com/diy/soha%20ii/main.php?page=tweaks/tubes


----------



## Currawong

Quote: 





buttsack said:


> I'm not necessarily after the latest and greatest, probably more so a tried and true amp to match the LCD-2's. I'll really have to find somewhere I can try out some different types of sound to see what my ears like. I'm from Australia so if anyone here is around the Central Coast, NSW and can help me out I'd be very greatful. There's no high end audio shops around here so it's a bit hard to get started not knowing what I like.
> 
> Would the Apex Peak be the best solution for me since it's neutral and if I change the tube I chane the sound? Does it have to be paired with the Volcano?


 

 There are, occasionally, meets in Sydney where you could try out various gear. SP Wild has the same rig as I do, more or less, the amp of which is the Audio-gd Phoenix, which was based on a pre-amp and works well as one.  I like it compared to the other amps I've tried due to the wide soundstage it provides which, I feel, works best with the LCD-2s.  I do sometimes appreciate a bit of colour over neutrality, so I have the predecessor to the Liquid Fire here for that (the Stacker II). It also throws a good, wide soundstage and has a bit more kick in the bass.


----------



## sachu

Curra..Stacker 2 is a completely different design compared to the Liquid Fire. 
   
  Stacker 2 as you correctly note is a colored, warmer sounding amplifier compared to the Liquid Fire which is one of the most neutral sounding yet with just the right amount of organic quality and texture to the sound that is desired.
   
  Stacker 2 is a tube rollers wet dream as its as close to a SET as possible without going mental on power consumption. THe highlight of this amp is you listen to that sweet second harmonic of the tube pair you use in the amp. The amp's characteristics changes drastically with the tube set used in the amp. 
   
  In contrast, the tubes in the Liquid Fire are truly and completely embedded in the design of the amp.
   
  Needless to say, both amps are very much loved by me in my rig.


----------



## MacedonianHero

wedge said:


> Shuguang Treasure Tube, probably isn't the best match for the LCD-2.




A few more details please?


----------



## Wedge

Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> A few more details please?


 

 I responded to my tube preferences in a previous post.  I own the Shuguangs but I never use them.


----------



## jax

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *WarriorAnt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> The hardest thing can be to STOP upgrading particularly if your happy.  It's almost like a gambler at a casino.  when your'e up in winnings you have to know when to walk away.


 
   
  Amen to that one, brother.  Been there, done that.  Don't do it anymore.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





wedge said:


> I responded to my tube preferences in a previous post.  I own the Shuguangs but I never use them.


 

 But you are talking about in the Peak/Volcano, correct? I use the Treasure CV181-Z as drivers in my WA22 and prefer them to all the other drivers that I have tried for the LCD-2. I hated the Shuggie 274B as a rectifier, but that's not part of their Treasure lineup anyways.


----------



## Wedge

Quote: 





grokit said:


> But you are talking about in the Peak/Volcano, correct? I use the Treasure CV181-Z as drivers in my WA22 and prefer them to all the other drivers that I have tried for the LCD-2. I hated the Shuggie 274B as a rectifier, but that's not part of their Treasure lineup anyways.


 

 You are correct.


----------



## Kremer930

Hi Head-fiers. 

Just wanted to see if my comments regarding the upcoming Schiit statement amp due to be released at the end of the year are appreciated. I had a user PM me and abuse me for referring to a product that is not out yet and suggesting that it should compete with amps up to the $3k range. It's price should be around the $1k mark. 

I have been given details of the layout of the amp and it's features but have been told to keep them under wraps until the amp goes on preorder. I personally feel that the amp will add some features to headphone enthusiasts that are not currently available regardless of price. 

Do users think that I should keep my thoughts to myself or would you like to know that a product is coming at years end that potentially should be on anyone's considered list of amps up to $3k? Especially given the potential cost saving.


----------



## Kremer930

Don't know whether to say Thankyou or not to those comments. :rolleyes:

Cheers


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





kremer930 said:


> Hi Head-fiers.
> 
> Just wanted to see if my comments regarding the upcoming Schiit statement amp due to be released at the end of the year are appreciated. I had a user PM me and abuse me for referring to a product that is not out yet and suggesting that it should compete with amps up to the $3k range. It's price should be around the $1k mark.
> 
> ...


 


  It's good to know something is on the horizon as long as you don't violate the trust a manufacturer has placed in you.


----------



## Equus

Quote: 





kremer930 said:


> I agree with the comment about not always waiting for the next new greatest to come out ... You would probably not be that happy having spent $3k on an amp and then seeing what the Schiit statement amp does for 1/3 of the price.
> 
> That would leave enough change to buy some JH iems and a pair of LCD2.2. Hmmmm


 
   
  Quote: 





kremer930 said:


> Hi Head-fiers.
> 
> Just wanted to see if my comments regarding the upcoming Schiit statement amp due to be released at the end of the year are appreciated. I had a user PM me and abuse me for referring to a product that is not out yet and suggesting that it should compete with amps up to the $3k range. It's price should be around the $1k mark.
> 
> ...


 

 Have you heard this upcoming amp?  Have you heard the $3k amps you're alluding to?  I would hope that head-fiers who are going to purchase a $1000 or $3000 or $5000 amp would be capable of doing their research, and if possible, have had the chance to audition that amp.  If your opinion and statements are informed, well-educated, and the product of experience, more power to you.  If not, it's supposition.
   
  Nothing wrong with being enthusiastic and supportive.  Lord knows I have enough fanboy in me as well.  It's also helpful for people to know that new stuff is coming out, but that's pretty much always the case.  That being said, everyone has their own opinion, and some are quite strongly held, so unless you have corroboration or are in the position to give more than a vague opinion, I hope you have a strong constitution and/or a flame-retardant suit.


----------



## Kremer930

Thankyou Equus and WarriorAnt

No I haven't heard the Schiit yet as it is yet to come out but I know alot of the design features and layouts, inputs, power supply configuration and power outputs to know that it will receive lots of attention once it is made public. I agree that we won't know whether to proclaim it a great amp regardless of price or a good $1k amp until many people have physically listened to it but it is unique enough and well priced that in my opinion it deserves to be on the radar. 

I am a fan of Jason and the team at Schiit and being on the opposite side of the globe in Western Australia some of my purchases must be made on members views and the reviews of fine gentlemen such as Skylab. Sometimes they are just a blind leap as in the Lyr based on the reputation of the men designing the components. 

My aim is not to create false hype but to put a product into the public realm so others may thoughtfully and diligently consider it. 

Cheers


----------



## rudi0504

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> USB was Wire World Ultra Violet 5,2   Now USB is ACR Reference II.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm real interested in these 2 cables.  Can you switch back to the USB Wire World Ultra Violet 5,2 and see if you still like it in the system?


 
  I already switch back to my Wire World Ultra Violet 5.2,
   
  Mid is thicker but overall sound going to Warm side, to my ear Dark
   
  i like ACR Reference II sound more balance in Bass , Mid and High.
   
  Mid so sweet and High more open and Bass more detail.
   
  My friend told me from Wire World the Best is Platinum Silver Cable and second Best Starlirte in Red Color Cooper Cable with Silver Coating.
   
  Cheers


----------



## Argo Duck

Well I think the words "a statement amp is planned" from Schiit would be enough to whet our appetites. For comparison Jan Meier has also announced a new amp on his website. To this extent, whether the source is the manufacturer or a third party such as you is neither here nor there.
   
  However, a *literal* value estimate may just be pushing speculation too far, and a little unwise. What I mean is, many of us have an opinion Schiit gear is unusually good value. That being so, we might well _infer_ an equation of the sort $1k --> $2-3k without it needing to be stated.
   
  That said, I for one appreciated you giving the information. Definitely food for thought as I remain actively interested in - well - the topic of this thread 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  Quote: 





> Do users think that I should keep my thoughts to myself or would you like to know that a product is coming at years end that potentially should be on anyone's considered list of amps up to $3k? Especially given the potential cost saving.


----------



## geetarman49

i believe this is directed at me ... for those who caught my ill-fated words, my apologies .. my attempt at sarca-humour was thoughtfully excised by currawong since it contributes nothing to the overriding spirit of this thread & there were other issues on my mind.
   
  & i heartily support your position of relaying whatever info you can, kremer930... and that, i suppose, is the criterion... info.. facts, not suppositions ... so it's likely to be a fine line between pleasing the peanut gallery (us) and avoiding the wrath of the designer/manufacturer (them ****** audio guys) by too-early releasal of key-design facets.  
  
  Quote: 





kremer930 said:


> Don't know whether to say Thankyou or not to those comments.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Kremer930

geetarman49 said:


> i believe this is directed at me ... for those who caught my ill-fated words, my apologies .. my attempt at sarca-humour was thoughtfully excised by currawong since it contributes nothing to the overriding spirit of this thread & there were other issues on my mind.
> 
> & i heartily support your position of relaying whatever info you can, kremer930... and that, i suppose, is the criterion... info.. facts, not suppositions ... so it's likely to be a fine line between pleasing the peanut gallery (us) and avoiding the wrath of the designer/manufacturer (them ****** audio guys) by too-early releasal of key-design facets.




No problems at at Geetarman. I guessed you were joking. Sorry if I didn't pic the correct smiley face to infer such. 

Cheers


----------



## grokit

Speculating that it will have balanced inputs if not XLR outputs to accommodate Schiit's upcoming mid-tier balanced DAC


----------



## Kremer930

This amp will be in line with the statement DAC. Balanced is a given at this level.


----------



## grokit

Not necessarily a given:


----------



## Kremer930

What is that? It's obviously less than Schiit. 

Both the mid and top Schiit dacs have been announced as having balanced inputs.


----------



## Skylab

Neither the Cavalli Liquid Fire or the RWA Audeze Edition Isabellina have balanced outs.

I actually personally don't have much interest in balanced. Amps that must be used balanced to sound their best are not amps I personally buy. But that is just my personal bias. I don't believe the dogma behind "balanced" headphones.

That said, I have balanced cables for both the LCD-2 and the HE-6, so that I can test them with balanced amps I review. The main amps I actually own and use are SE, though. I have not ever heard the LCD-2 sound better balanced than it does SE.


----------



## Clayton SF

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Neither the Cavalli Liquid Fire or the RWA Audeze Edition Isabellina have balanced outs.
> 
> I actually personally don't have much interest in balanced. Amps that must be used balanced to sound their best are not amps I personally buy. But that is just my personal bias. I don't believe the dogma behind "balanced" headphones.
> 
> That said, I have balanced cables for both the LCD-2 and the HE-6, so that I can test them with balanced amps I review. The main amps I actually own and use are SE, though. *I have not ever heard the LCD-2 sound better balanced than it does SE.*


 
  That's very good to know when considering the LCD-2. I have the LF on my mind as well as the LCD-2 and the LF is not balanced--But the WA22 is!


----------



## Wedge

All my amps are single ended, and I don't personally feel that a "balanced amp" is neccessary to make anything sound its best.  In some cases I am not convinced its better at all, for the application that most of us have.


----------



## adydula

kremer 930..
   
  I welcome the news, as long as it accurate as possible, honest and above board...its good to know new stuff is coming...but its always coming from someone.
  Coming from Schiit though we all hope they will continue to offer world class performance at an affordable price. I think they will. (fingers crossed)...
   
  But again todays good stuff will be still good tomorrow but the new stuff might be better???
   
  Sounds like a Snapple commercial!
   
  Alex


----------



## Kremer930

The balanced capability of the Schiit will be my first foray into balanced as well.  From my point of view it is good to have the choice of both and I do know that it costs a lot more to produce an amp which is fully balanced.  So great to get it included at a reasonable cost.
   
  To get this thread back on track...how many users have tried the LCD2 with a balanced rig, with or without a balanced source?
   
  I had in mind that balanced was going to be better especially given the power capability of the LCD's and that balanced amps, generally being able to produce double the voltage, should really grab hold of the drivers to produce a more accurate sound.  I admit that I dont know much at all on this subject.
   
  Thoughts?
   
  Cheers


----------



## RedBull

Quote: 





grokit said:


> I am finding more enjoyment with the later issue HD800 (s/n 109xx) than the earlier issue HD800 (s/n 14xx).


 

 I always wanted to try HD800 later issue, I heard Senn increase the bass by +3 dB, that sounds about right, but how about the infamous hot treble, are they still there?
   
  Side question, Skylab, what S/N is your HD800?

  
  Quote: 





currawong said:


> I do sometimes appreciate a bit of colour over neutrality, so I have the predecessor to the Liquid Fire here for that (the Stacker II). It also throws a good, wide soundstage and has a bit more kick in the bass.


 
  Quote:  





> Needless to say, both amps are very much loved by me in my rig.


 
   
  Amos, Sachu, Since you have the LF and other higher end gear, are you selling your Stacker II  to me   
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 .  C'mon, Stacker II is nothing for you 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  
  Quote: 





skylab said:


> Neither the Cavalli Liquid Fire or the RWA Audeze Edition Isabellina have balanced outs.
> 
> I actually personally don't have much interest in balanced. *Amps that must be used balanced to sound their best are not amps I personally buy*. But that is just my personal bias. I don't believe the dogma behind "balanced" headphones.


 

 I like that   Balanced, to me, *may* add dynamics, but the signal also has to go twice the path, twice the components as it is with SE, that, would definitely affect the sound some way or another.


----------



## RedBull

[size=medium]*Once upon a time, Sansui was*[/size]*[size=medium] a mere transformer manufacturer.  It was natural progress that Sansui started manufacturing amplifiers and tuners in its early history.[/size]*
   
  Hmm, it turns out that a company that produce only Transformer earlier on would transform itself to a great Amplifier company, one other is the Leben.


----------



## sachu

I have considered it very seriously...selling the stacker 2 that is. And i might still..will keep you posted if that happens. 
   
   

  Quote: 





redbull said:


> Amos, Sachu, Since you have the LF and other higher end gear, are you selling your Stacker II  to me
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





kremer930 said:


> The balanced capability of the Schiit will be my first foray into balanced as well.  From my point of view it is good to have the choice of both and I do know that it costs a lot more to produce an amp which is fully balanced.  So great to get it included at a reasonable cost.
> 
> To get this thread back on track...how many users have tried the LCD2 with a balanced rig, with or without a balanced source?
> 
> ...


 

 I run the LCD-2 through a balanced source and amp, however I did not buy them because they were balanced. I do not believe in balanced being better than single ended as I've heard the LCD-2 through both and the differences were attributed to the amp or source; not because one was balanced or unbalanced.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





redbull said:


> I always wanted to try HD800 later issue, I heard Senn increase the bass by +3 dB, that sounds about right, but how about the infamous hot treble, are they still there?


 
   
  It doesn't seem as hot, but that could be because of the different overall frequency balance. Also I have improved my source since then and am using different tubes in my amp.


----------



## geetarman49

are you able to run them single-ended via the same set up & (mentally) compare?  the reason i ask is because i have heard my k-701 thru a balanced setup & i feel that it was noticeably better than my current s-e setup with the same phones despite a superior dac - mind you, this is just a strong perception that relies on memories of events.
  Quote: 





brasewel said:


> I run the LCD-2 through a balanced source and amp, however I did not buy them because they were balanced. I do not believe in balanced being better than single ended as I've heard the LCD-2 through both and the differences were attributed to the amp or source; not because one was balanced or unbalanced.


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





geetarman49 said:


> are you able to run them single-ended via the same set up & (mentally) compare?  the reason i ask is because i have heard my k-701 thru a balanced setup & i feel that it was noticeably better than my current s-e setup with the same phones despite a superior dac - mind you, this is just a strong perception that relies on memories of events.


 

 Yes I have done this and it requires me to jack up the volume when running single-ended. When the two were volume matched I couldn't tell the difference.
  I do like the fact that when running balanced I have more power at my disposal.


----------



## RedBull

Quote: 





sachu said:


> I have considered it very seriously...selling the stacker 2 that is. And i might still..will keep you posted if that happens.
> 
> 
> Quote:
> ...


 

 Alright sir!  I'll be ready 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Do you know any specs I can find about Stacker 2, especially output at 50 ohms?


----------



## sachu

Quote: 





redbull said:


> Alright sir!  I'll be ready
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 No published specs, but it'll comfortably do 2W in Class A into 50 ohms.
   
  You should hit up equus, he is looking to sell his Stacker2. Honestly, I think that stacker sounds better than the Stacker2 I have here.


----------



## geetarman49

Thnx for this .... in my case (with the k701), even taking into acct the likelihood of mismatched volumes, i could not attain the same quality of spatial representation present with the balanced vice s-e. - but there may be additional factors at play.   i'll try to check this out (balanced vs s-e) on lcd-2 at the upcoming rmaf... would certainly make things a lot easier on the wallet.
  
  Quote: 





brasewel said:


> Yes I have done this and it requires me to jack up the volume when running single-ended. When the two were volume matched I couldn't tell the difference.
> I do like the fact that when running balanced I have more power at my disposal.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





sachu said:


> No published specs, but it'll comfortably do 2W in Class A into 50 ohms.
> 
> You should hit up equus, he is looking to sell his Stacker2. Honestly, I think that stacker sounds better than the Stacker2 I have here.


 
  So the Stacker is biased into Class A for at least 2W dissipation quiescently?


----------



## sachu

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> So the Stacker is biased into Class A for at least 2W dissipation quiescently?


 


  not all stackers..as the biasing points on the buffers can be changed. I know mine could do 1.5.  
   
  Again this is an amp that wasn't completely developed at the time when we built them. THere are far too many variations of this amp. I know of at least 4 different stacker versions.


----------



## sachu

if i remember correctly, buffers are running 18 volt rails at about 80mA quiescent in the stacker ethan has.


----------



## Equus

Quote: 





sachu said:


> You should hit up equus, he is looking to sell his Stacker2. Honestly, I think that stacker sounds better than the Stacker2 I have here.


 


  Are you gonna lug that Stacker up to the Seattle meet?
   
  EDIT - and yeah, I'll probably sell the Stacker I have at or after the meet.  I love it, but I can't really justify storing it when I know that I'll either probably never be motivated to pull it out since I have the Liquid Fire, and I ever feel interested in doing so, I'll probably be too lazy to pull it out.


----------



## sachu

I can lug it up with me if you want to listen to it. 
   
  It sure is a nice piece of eye candy.


----------



## Equus

Then if we get smeggy to come out, that would put 3 Stackers at the meet.  Where else would you see that?


----------



## sachu

yeah..i'll call the old fart and ask him to make it to the meet. If anything i plan on visiting him while am up there.


----------



## Equus

The Three Stacker Musketeers...together for maybe the last time.  <cue dramatic music>
   
  Would be a great opportunity to listen to how they all sound different too.


----------



## adydula

What does the Lyr do at 50 ohms?
  Alex


----------



## LiqTenExp

Around 3.8 W calculated


----------



## adydula

Thanks thought I saw 4 watts somewhere...
  Plenty enough.
   
  Alex


----------



## MacedonianHero

adydula said:


> Thanks thought I saw 4 watts somewhere...
> Plenty enough.
> 
> Alex




Schiit (Jason S.) published 4 Watts into 50 ohms.


----------



## Windsor

I'm looking forward to trying the Burson HA-160D with the LCD-2 this coming week, as part of Headfonia/Burson's HA-160D loaner program (thanks guys), especially to give me some context for comparison with the Lavry DA10, which does a superb job of revealing what's on recordings with the LCD-2.


----------



## rfdblue

I'm looking for a DAC amp combo (separate units or integrated) for $600 or less.
   
  Has anyone tried & have feedback (ideally comparative) on the following?
   
  1) HRT Music Streamer ii+ ---> Schitt Asgard
  2) Musical Fidelity V-DAC ---> Schitt Asgard
  3) Nuforce HDP
   
  Welcome/looking for other recommendations as well.  Thanks!


----------



## grokit

This one from PS Audio is class A, and it has a USB input. I don't know how good the DAC is, but it looks like a heck of an amp for $500, which is half off:
   
  http://www.musicdirect.com/p-7416-ps-audio-gcha-headphone-amp.aspx


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





grokit said:


> This one from PS Audio is class A, and it has a USB input. I don't know how good the DAC is, but it looks like a heck of an amp for $500, which is half off:
> 
> http://www.musicdirect.com/p-7416-ps-audio-gcha-headphone-amp.aspx


 
  The DAC sux, but the amp is great!  The DAC is ok for a starter, but the amp really comes alive with a good DAC.  The amp puts out over 2W per channel.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





rfdblue said:


> I'm looking for a DAC amp combo (separate units or integrated) for $600 or less.
> 
> Has anyone tried & have feedback (ideally comparative) on the following?
> 
> ...


 
  I personally do not like the HDP or the HRT Music Streamer.  YMMV.  The Asgard is a good amp for the money.


----------



## jazzfan

Quote: 





grokit said:


> This one from PS Audio is class A, and it has a USB input. I don't know how good the DAC is, but it looks like a heck of an amp for $500, which is half off:
> 
> http://www.musicdirect.com/p-7416-ps-audio-gcha-headphone-amp.aspx


 

  
  Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> The DAC sux, but the amp is great!  The DAC is ok for a starter, but the amp really comes alive with a good DAC.  The amp puts out over 2W per channel.


 

 @grokit
   
  I agree with kwkarth, that in general - as a USB DAC - the performance of the GCHA is less than stellar.  I'll be able to comment on the amp late next week when I hope to receive a new pair of LCD-2s.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





rfdblue said:


> I'm looking for a DAC amp combo (separate units or integrated) for $600 or less.
> 
> Has anyone tried & have feedback (ideally comparative) on the following?
> 
> ...


 
   
  Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> The DAC sux, but the amp is great!  The DAC is ok for a starter, but the amp really comes alive with a good DAC.  The amp puts out over 2W per channel.


 

  
  Then I would get the GCHA if I was *rfdblue*, as it sounds like the best amp in his price range. The DAC in it would still be an improvement compared to a computer's built-in soundcard, and could be upgraded at a later date.


----------



## badwisdom

Well i have used the LCD2 though a Audio-GD Phoenix completely balanced from Source (MPS5) to the LCD2. I expected this to be the ultimate system.....
   
  And i now use the LCD2 single ended through an Accuphase integrated with its included DAC.
   
  Lets just say that i now believe that there's no Balanced vs Single ended argument to have, just better sounding equipment.
   
  Cheers
  Xav


----------



## RedBull

Quote: 





sachu said:


> No published specs, but it'll comfortably do 2W in Class A into 50 ohms.
> 
> You should hit up equus, he is looking to sell his Stacker2. Honestly, I think that stacker sounds better than the Stacker2 I have here.


 

 Aye aye sir, contacting Equus straight away ...
  
  Quote: 





equus said:


> EDIT - and yeah, I'll probably sell the Stacker I have at or after the meet.  I love it, but I can't really justify storing it when I know that I'll either probably never be motivated to pull it out since I have the Liquid Fire, and I ever feel interested in doing so, I'll probably be too lazy to pull it out.


 

 Please remember to contact me when you want to sell your Stacker 2  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
   
  And btw side story, I listen to Monitor Audio RX-8 with Yaqin (16 wpc) tube amp, can't remember the model number, it's verrrryyyy niiiceeee, it reminds me a lot like my LCD2 + Leben combination except that I cannot blast the volume at nite.


----------



## winzzz

so which one do you think the better one accuphase e560 or balance through phoenix badwisdom ?


----------



## RedBull

Quote: 





badwisdom said:


> *Lets just say that i now believe that there's no Balanced vs Single ended argument to have, just better sounding equipment.*


 
   

  
  You mean this one?


----------



## rfdblue

Thanks, all.  GCHA sounds very promising.  Has anyone tried the GCHA with the LCD-2?  And if yes, DAC recos, ideally in the ~$250 range?  
   
  Also, I forgot to mention I was considering the Matrix M-Stage.  Anyone used this with LCD-2?
   
   
  Quote: 





grokit said:


> Then I would get the GCHA if I was *rfdblue*, as it sounds like the best amp in his price range. The DAC in it would still be an improvement compared to a computer's built-in soundcard, and could be upgraded at a later date.


----------



## winzzz

from his profile it seems he is using e560...that pic is e460..looked identical though


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





rfdblue said:


> Thanks, all.  GCHA sounds very promising.  Has anyone tried the GCHA with the LCD-2?  And if yes, DAC recos, ideally in the ~$250 range?
> 
> Also, I forgot to mention I was considering the Matrix M-Stage.  Anyone used this with LCD-2?


 
  My recommendation for the PSA GCHA as an amp is based upon using it to drive the LCD-2.  That's what this thread is all about.  For the money, IMO, the LYR is a better amp, but you have to deal with tubes as it's a hybrid.


----------



## Equus

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *RedBull* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Please remember to contact me when you want to sell your Stacker 2


 

  Will do.  I'll probably look to sell it after the Seattle meet on the 20th, because I wanted the Stacker there at least once more for old time's sake.  And because the idea of the Stacker and Liquid Fire sitting side by side each hooked up to LCD-2s sounded like fun.  A decent amount of stuff to move in my little Mazda, but fun.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> My recommendation for the PSA GCHA as an amp is based upon using it to drive the LCD-2.  That's what this thread is all about.  For the money, IMO, the LYR is a better amp, but you have to deal with tubes as it's a hybrid.


 
   
  I would get the GHCA, but for some good Schiit later save up for their Bifrost DAC


----------



## badwisdom

Quote: 





winzzz said:


> so which one do you think the better one accuphase e560 or balance through phoenix badwisdom ?


 


  If i am brutally honest, and much to my amazement, the Phoenix got creamed. No comparison possible, the Accuphase is in a completely different universe. I would have thought that the headphone were an afterthought, but not at all, its the best I've heard yet, and has made me question everything i was lead to believe (Balanced > single-ended, dedicated head amp > speaker amp with headphone jack).


----------



## badwisdom

Quote: 





winzzz said:


> from his profile it seems he is using e560...that pic is e460..looked identical though


 


  Yes, i am using the E560 with a DAC-30 card. All in one solution which kicked my **** very hard. Made me rethink everything.


----------



## Sweden

Quote: 





badwisdom said:


> If i am brutally honest, and much to my amazement, the Phoenix got creamed. No comparison possible, the Accuphase is in a completely different universe. I would have thought that the headphone were an afterthought, but not at all, its the best I've heard yet, and has made me question everything i was lead to believe (Balanced > single-ended, dedicated head amp > speaker amp with headphone jack).


 

 But the E-560 is around 8,5 k right?
  Hardly a fair comparison against the Phoenix


----------



## RedBull

Quote:


winzzz said:


> from his profile it seems he is using e560...that pic is e460..looked identical though


 

 Yeah, pretty looking amp, and ... expensive 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  Quote: 





equus said:


> Will do.  I'll probably look to sell it after the Seattle meet on the 20th, because I wanted the Stacker there at least once more for old time's sake.  And because the idea of the Stacker and Liquid Fire sitting side by side each hooked up to LCD-2s sounded like fun.  A decent amount of stuff to move in my little Mazda, but fun.


 

 What happen if then you realized your Stacker sounded better than your Liquid Fire?


----------



## Rope

Quote: 





redbull said:


> Quote:
> 
> Yeah, pretty looking amp, and ... expensive
> 
> ...


 
  You're Schiit out of luck.


----------



## Equus

Quote: 





redbull said:


> What happen if then you realized your Stacker sounded better than your Liquid Fire?


 

 Well, I did make the decision to buy the LF after hearing the prototype a few times.  One of them was an extended listening session at my apartment with the Stacker right next to it, so I had a pretty good idea how they...errr...stacked up against each other.  I also figured worst comes to worst, I'd be able to sell the Liquid Fire and take a marginal loss that I was comfortable with.  I'm pretty familiar with the pros and cons of the Stacker I have, and did a few hours of A/B comparisons already.  In all honesty, I'd keep both if it weren't for space considerations and that I really wouldn't use both.
   


  Quote: 





rope said:


> You're Schiit out of luck.


 


 No Schiit in house!  Schitt go over there!


----------



## badwisdom

Quote: 





sweden said:


> But the E-560 is around 8,5 k right?
> Hardly a fair comparison against the Phoenix


 


  The E560 is a speaker amp first. Its not a 10K head amp. So in my mind, a dedicated 1K headphone amp as well constructed as the Phoenix could definitely rival a 10K speaker amp with a headphone jack thrown in.

 Guess i was wrong.


----------



## Currawong

I did try a couple of Luxman amps with the LCD-2s using their headphone jacks, but they sounded rather closed-in compared to the Phoenix, so it's interesting to read about the Accuphase.


----------



## RedBull

Quote: 





rope said:


> You're Schiit out of luck.


 

 Hey, Lyr is not a bad idea actually.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
   
  Quote: 





equus said:


> Well, I did make the decision to buy the LF after hearing the prototype a few times.  One of them was an extended listening session at my apartment with the Stacker right next to it, so I had a pretty good idea how they...errr...stacked up against each other.  I also figured worst comes to worst, I'd be able to sell the Liquid Fire and take a marginal loss that I was comfortable with.  I'm pretty familiar with the pros and cons of the Stacker I have, and did a few hours of A/B comparisons already.  In all honesty, I'd keep both if it weren't for space considerations and that I really wouldn't use both.


 
   
  Have you heard Lyr with LCD-2?  They're both hybrid ...
   
  Actually I still missed my Darkvoice 337, if not because its dual volume pot I would have keep it.


----------



## Equus

Quote: 





currawong said:


> I did try a couple of Luxman amps with the LCD-2s using their headphone jacks, but they sounded rather closed-in compared to the Phoenix, so it's interesting to read about the Accuphase.


 
   
  I've only heard the LCD-2 with a Luxman P1u.  I didn't really like it at all.  On one of my test tracks, there's a piano descending run that just about destroyed my ears with glare.  With a T1 it was even worse.
   
  Quote: 





redbull said:


> Have you heard Lyr with LCD-2?  They're both hybrid ...


 


 Well, the Stacker is also a hybrid but is a completely different beast than the Liquid Fire...or the Lyr for that matter.  And yes, I listened to a Lyr for a little bit at a local meet.  It was stock, if I recall correctly, and there's a lot of people posting about how improvements can be made with tube rolling.  That being said, I preferred the Stacker.  The Lyr definitely impressed me with weight of sound at its price point, but it didn't strike me as my cup o' tea.


----------



## Sylafari

Would the Schiit Asgard be an ok match for the LCD-2 Rev 2 (Just received today after working nonstop for 2 weeks )? I only have a Fiio E9 and I'm under tight wallet limitations


----------



## Clayton SF

I just ordered a _Mini Torii SE-X with planar headphone jack option_. Now all I need to do is decided between a T1 or a LCD2(rev.2) -- or get both! Eek! The Mini Torii takes 8 weeks to build (I ordered it on last Friday). And the LF gets delivered on--hopefully--the 15th of August.


----------



## Kremer930

That is a great looking amp.  Have always loved the look and price of the mini torii.  How much power does it put into the LCD2?


----------



## Argo Duck

Clayton, Skylab suggests the mini torii is happiest with low-impedance phones - such as LCD2! It might not suit so well the T1, which is 600 ohms yes?
   
  Very nice looking amp!!
   
  Here is Rob's thread in case you haven't already seen it:
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/402585/review-summary-a-ranking-of-32-tube-and-tube-hybrid-headphone-amps


----------



## Clayton SF

Quote: 





argo duck said:


> Clayton, Skylab suggests the mini torii is happiest with low-impedance phones - such as LCD2! It might not suit so well the T1, which is 600 ohms yes?
> Very nice looking amp!!
> Here is Rob's thread in case you haven't already seen it:
> http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/402585/review-summary-a-ranking-of-32-tube-and-tube-hybrid-headphone-amps


 
  I'm saving up for the LCD2. I've heard that I should get Rev.1 and not Rev.2 and vice versa. I guess it is a matter of personal taste and since I haven't heard Rev.1 then Rev.2 will be just fine.
  Quote: 





kremer930 said:


> That is a great looking amp.  Have always loved the look and price of the mini torii.  How much power does it put into the LCD2?


 
  I do not know the power it puts into the LCD2. I should check the _*manual *_and see if it is listed there or call Steve Deckert himself.
   
  Thanks, gents--this is all very exciting!


----------



## Skylab

LOTS of power for the LCD-2 from the Mini-Torii. But it is not ideal for high-impedance headphones. Steve Deckert told me that there will be a bass rolloff with 600 ohm headphones.


----------



## Argo Duck

Rob I know you're using vintage receivers as well as headamps with the LCD2, but focusing on just headamps, I presume the Leben is still at the top for you?
   
  After this, of those you have used with the LCD2, what would be your top few? Would you still place Meier Concerto, Mini-Torii, Phoenix-GD in there? Care to comment on particular strengths or weaknesses?
   
  Sorry that's actually asking an awful lot - practically a multi-way review! Any brief comment you care to make would be appreciated


----------



## Skylab

My favorite current-production amp with the LCD-2 is still the Leben, yes. my second favorite would be the Mini-Torii, very closely followed by the Trafomatic Head-One. Some days I think I prefer the Trafomatic. It's more neutral.


----------



## Clayton SF

Quote: 





skylab said:


> My favorite current-production amp with the LCD-2 is still the Leben, yes. my second favorite would be the Mini-Torii, very closely followed by the Trafomatic Head-One. Some days I think I prefer the Trafomatic. It's more neutral.


 
  I don't own any 6V6 amps and I am not familiar with its "sound." I am waiting in anticipation for the Mini Torii. It will take 8 weeks to build.


----------



## Argo Duck

Thanks Rob! Hmm, Trafomatic sounds a bit like me...
   
  At my more modest level I currently have Lyr (stock; 6BZ7; and 6N1P - the Z7s right now); Violectric V100 and Jan Meier's Opera. I find strengths and weaknesses in each, and sometimes prefer one sometimes the other. This with the rev 1 btw (and either Meier StageDAC or EE MiniMax).
   
  My impressions: the Violectric has great midrange dynamics and transient control; the Opera a leaner midrange but more present and defined bass, and very extended, clean and clear top end. The Lyr I greatly enjoyed in stock form but right now I'm scratching my head, probably because of the tube-rolling.
   
  Anyways, am enjoying them all - which after all is the whole point!


----------



## Argo Duck

Of course you understand you are honor-bound to make a full and frank report of your impressions?! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  Quote: 





clayton sf said:


> I don't own any 6V6 amps and I am not familiar with its "sound."* I am waiting in anticipation for the Mini Torii*. It will take 8 weeks to build.


----------



## Clayton SF

Quote: 





argo duck said:


> Of course you understand you are honor-bound to make a full and frank report of your impressions?!


 
  My frank impression may just be--Holy Moly!
   
  I will make every attempt to do a good job in reporting back. But I need pointers. Before I joined Head-Fi the only way for me to describe music accurately to a fellow audiophile was to say "Here, put on these headphones and listen to this."  But now I see that there is a whole new technique (to me at least) to express sonic impressions and many members have the talent to do so engagingly. They are able to listen attentively to music through headphones (or no) and transcribe to paper or with keyboard their experiences and impressions in such a manner as to instill love, hate, or indifference amongst their readers. I, on the other hand, do not possess such hidden talents and, therefore, may absolutely bore you to tears when I write a review peppered with such descriptive words as, nice, clear, clean, and totally awesome. I will, however, endeavor to describe, to the best of my ability, my inner-head sound experiences that the Mini Torii will certainly ingrain across my mind in such a manner as to make the reader feel like they've put on a set of headphones and heard--Reader Beware! Eek!


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





skylab said:


> My favorite current-production amp with the LCD-2 is still the Leben, yes. my second favorite would be the Mini-Torii, very closely followed by the Trafomatic Head-One. Some days I think I prefer the Trafomatic. It's more neutral.


 


  Skylab, the Mini-Tori is still on my list because it can power a small set of high quality speakers and drive the LCD's.          Can the Trafomatic Head-One drive speakers or is it just a head amp?


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





clayton sf said:


> My frank impression may just be--Holy Moly!
> 
> I will make every attempt to do a good job in reporting back. But I need pointers. Before I joined Head-Fi the only way for me to describe music accurately to a fellow audiophile was to say "Here, put on these headphones and listen to this."  But now I see that there is a whole new technique (to me at least) to express sonic impressions and many members have the talent to do so engagingly. They are able to listen attentively to music through headphones (or no) and transcribe to paper or with keyboard their experiences and impressions in such a manner as to instill love, hate, or indifference amongst their readers. I, on the other hand, do not possess such hidden talents and, therefore, may absolutely bore you to tears when I write a review peppered with such descriptive words as, nice, clear, clean, and totally awesome. I will, however, endeavor to describe, to the best of my ability, my inner-head sound experiences that the Mini Torii will certainly ingrain across my mind in such a manner as to make the reader feel like they've put on a set of headphones and heard--Reader Beware! Eek!


 

 Just write what you feel and hear.  I can't wait for your Mini Tori description.  I didn't realize it took 8 weeks to build!  Are you going to use it with a small set of speakers also?


----------



## WNBC

_Textured_ Holy Moly and_ Transparent_ Totally Awesome work for me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  Quote: 





clayton sf said:


> My frank impression may just be-*-Holy Moly!*
> 
> I will make every attempt to do a good job in reporting back. But I need pointers. Before I joined Head-Fi the only way for me to describe music accurately to a fellow audiophile was to say "Here, put on these headphones and listen to this."  But now I see that there is a whole new technique (to me at least) to express sonic impressions and many members have the talent to do so engagingly. They are able to listen attentively to music through headphones (or no) and transcribe to paper or with keyboard their experiences and impressions in such a manner as to instill love, hate, or indifference amongst their readers. I, on the other hand, do not possess such hidden talents and, therefore, may absolutely bore you to tears when I write a review peppered with such descriptive words as, nice, clear, clean, and *totally awesome*. I will, however, endeavor to describe, to the best of my ability, my inner-head sound experiences that the Mini Torii will certainly ingrain across my mind in such a manner as to make the reader feel like they've put on a set of headphones and heard--Reader Beware! Eek!


----------



## olor1n

LOL. _"Holy Moly! Totally Awesome!"_ should be the Head-Fi seal of approval.


----------



## Clayton SF

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> Just write what you feel and hear.  I can't wait for your Mini Tori description.  I didn't realize it took 8 weeks to build!  Are you going to use it with a small set of speakers also?


 
   
  I do carry on don't I.
   
  I bought it primarily to drive a set of Zu Audio Omen Standard speakers (of the Sangria color). I got the planar magnetic headphones mod because of what I have heard about the LCD-2 (and the T1) so i got the mod for future use. I've been told, however, that the T1 would not be suitable for the MT. When i spoke to Steve last Friday he said that it would take 6-8 weeks to build and that the Mini Torii would drive those Omen speakers very well. I asked for some Vcaps and he said the MT was too small to put Vcaps in them. Oh well.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Thanks for reminding me of Vcaps.


----------



## grokit

Here's another relevant cross-quote from the New Jersey meet re the Apex Pinnacle amp and rev.2 as well:
   
_"The LCD2's sounded awesome out of the Pinnacle, which as I discovered, is a pretty freaking bright amp, but heck, that's perfect for the dark LCD2's. That was a killer sound from that rig, probably the best in the meet._
   
_By the way I never liked the LCD2's when I first heard them, I loved them at this meet and was told that there was a revision and something changed. Hooray! All I can say is that they sound nearly perfect now and I'd definitely buy a pair if I had the cash. I would say they are kind of like a more detailed Senn 600, with a flatter response and a dark sound thanks to slightly rolled off highs and a pleasant bump in the bass. These 'phones are a prime example of how a headphone can sound good without outrageously bumped up highs."_
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/566003/new-jersey-meet-aug-6-2011-post-pics-impressions-here/45#post_7667977


----------



## WarriorAnt

So the Pinnacle which runs $10,000 is a "_pretty freaking bright amp"?    Should I read on?  _


----------



## grokit

Perhaps it depends on how it's tubed 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 ?
   
  Much more here:
   
_First, as expected, the Pinnacle does all the conventional “amp things” perfectly - awesome, beautiful, lush, generous tonality - and amazing air, by which I don’t mean treble-tilted, but more a reminder that music moves air, and that in fact most of the air is moved down in the bass regions, and that the bass is where true airiness should be found._


----------



## Wedge

I don't think the Pinnacle is a bright amp, but that is really just my take.


----------



## RedBull

Quote: 





equus said:


> Well, the Stacker is also a hybrid but is a completely different beast than the Liquid Fire...or the Lyr for that matter.  And yes, I listened to a Lyr for a little bit at a local meet.  It was stock, if I recall correctly, and there's a lot of people posting about how improvements can be made with tube rolling.  That being said, I preferred the Stacker.  The Lyr definitely impressed me with weight of sound at its price point, but it didn't strike me as my cup o' tea.


 

 As for Stacker "vs" Lyr, are you referring to Lyr sounds heavier than Stacker or?  could you share more opinion about the comparison?


----------



## Skylab

warriorAnt, the Trafomatic can be preamp or headphone amp, but won't drive speakers. Indeed, the Mini Torii can drive speakers used near field very nicely, as long as they are fairly efficient.


----------



## Equus

Quote: 





redbull said:


> As for Stacker "vs" Lyr, are you referring to Lyr sounds heavier than Stacker or?  could you share more opinion about the comparison?


 


  I personally liked the mid ranges, and in particular, the vocals in terms of weight and tone on the Stacker versus the Lyr with stock tubes.
   
  Given that the Lyr had stock tubes and was not using the same source as the Stacker, please take this with a big hulking grain of salt.  If there's a Lyr at the Seattle meet, maybe I'll see if I can kidnap it for a little while and put it in my rig to see what happens.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





skylab said:


> warriorAnt, the Trafomatic can be preamp or headphone amp, but won't drive speakers. Indeed, the Mini Torii can drive speakers used near field very nicely, as long as they are fairly efficient.


 

 The mini torii is back on my radar, I have a small set of high end Mirage speakers that I was looking for an integrated tube amp to run them.  Gave the Jolida JD-202A a look then remembered the Mini Torii could probably do the job and run the LCD's as well.  I have a lot of respect for Steve Deckert and you can't beat a lifetime warranty on a piece of gear.  Ergonomically I'm wondering about the way the power cord sits and attaches to the back of the unit.  Is it in the way or a problem? I just wish it came straight out the back, same with the inputs.


----------



## Clayton SF

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> Ergonomically I'm wondering about the way the power cord sits and attaches to the back of the unit.  Is it in the way or a problem? I just wish it came straight out the back, same with the inputs.


 

 Absolutely no problem. In fact it is better for the heavy-weight power cords. I actually prefer the ICs and power cords shooting straight up instead of jutting into the wall. Here is a _*photo*_ with the IC and power cords attached to the amps.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





clayton sf said:


> Absolutely no problem. In fact it is better for the heavy-weight power cords. I actually prefer the ICs and power cords shooting straight up instead of jutting into the wall. Here is a _*photo*_ with the IC and power cords attached to the amps.


 

 What volume pot did you get?  Standard or stepped.


----------



## Clayton SF

Standard pot. I do love the feel of a stepped pot but not for $200 more. I have 2 hp amps with stepped pots: WA22 and WA2. The WA2 has a Goldpoint and the WA22 has a DACT. I like the feel of the GP and also the DACT is not as quiet as the GP. Static between clicks. It clears up when I blow air into the pot it but I've got to open the amp up to do that.


----------



## RedBull

Quote: 





equus said:


> I personally liked the mid ranges, and in particular, the vocals in terms of weight and tone on the Stacker versus the Lyr with stock tubes.
> 
> Given that the Lyr had stock tubes and was not using the same source as the Stacker, please take this with a big hulking grain of salt.  If there's a Lyr at the Seattle meet, maybe I'll see if I can kidnap it for a little while and put it in my rig to see what happens.


 

 Thanks Equus, I understand that likely the most I can hear for now, but that's quite helpful already.


----------



## Equus

^^^ No problem!  We're only a week and a half from the Seattle meet, after which folks can probably have more impressions.  Lots of cool toys!


----------



## KingStyles

Quote: 





> ^^^ No problem!  We're only a week and a half from the Seattle meet, after which folks can probably have more impressions.  Lots of cool toys!


 
  Oh boy....there is going to be toys?


----------



## Br777

anyone tried the new ALO continental with their LCD 2's yet?  I thought i read somewhere that they are supposed to be a suprisingly good match.  I'd love to hear how that amp stacks up against the desktops


----------



## Clayton SF

Quote: 





skylab said:


> warriorAnt, the Trafomatic can be preamp or headphone amp, but won't drive speakers. Indeed, the Mini Torii can drive speakers used near field very nicely, as long as they are fairly efficient.


 

 Which is why the Mini Torii will be perfect for my small apartment.


----------



## Equus

Quote: 





kingstyles said:


> Oh boy....there is going to be toys?


 


  Yeah!  There's even this guy who has these wooden isolation sandboxes that way a ton!  Oh wait...


----------



## mamsterla

Finally made it to the end of this thread.  I will be starting out with a CEntrance DacMini and have my LCD-2 on their way.  I am good at DIY, so I will probably build a B22 down the line.  Thanks so much to all the contributors - this has been very informative.
   
  Are there any mini meets in SoCal?  I will check out the regional part of the forum...


----------



## OzarkTom

The Dacmini sounds great with the LCD2's.
  
  Quote: 





mamsterla said:


> Finally made it to the end of this thread.  I will be starting out with a CEntrance DacMini and have my LCD-2 on their way.  I am good at DIY, so I will probably build a B22 down the line.  Thanks so much to all the contributors - this has been very informative.
> 
> Are there any mini meets in SoCal?  I will check out the regional part of the forum...


----------



## shinn

House-sound and signature-wise, has anyone compared the Decware Taboo and Woo amps?
  If possible, I'm looking for more prominent midrange to bring forward my Rev-2 mids. Thanks.


----------



## ptrok

x2 Great sound at a great price plus the guys at CEntrance were great with questions and fast responses. With the LCD-2's it seems the music comes alive. To me, the combo sounds very neutral, looking for a tube amp in the future so as to get a little warmth to compliment the sound signature of the Dacmini.


----------



## Windsor

The Burson HA-160D gets thumbs up from me - link


----------



## Questhate

Has anyone tried this with a Marantz 2220B? I saw one locally for 125 dollars and figured I'd give it a shot. At the very least it sure does LOOK cool.


----------



## Windsor

The HA-160D/LCD-2 is an awesome setup for listening to rock music.​


----------



## Buttsack

I've almost decided to get the Apex Peak/Volcano to go with the LCD-2 I purchase. *Is the fact that the Apex Peak connects to a DAC via RCA a bad thing and would it be better to have XLR connections?*
   
  I'll also get a 3m Q-Audio cable for them after reading a few positive reviews.
   
*Will it be okay to use my AV Receiver (Sony STR-DE495) as my DAC for now?  So my setup will go PC SPDIF out > Coax Cable > Receiver > Apex Peak/Volcano > Q-Audio 3m Cable > Audeze LCD-2 *
  Will this setup work okay until I get a good DAC.

 Todd from TTVJ suggested I get the Lavry DA11 but I feel as though I would be wasting money since I won't be using the inbuilt headphone amp.
*Would the Audio-GD Reference 7 be a good addition to my setup?* *Will it be a waste of money since it's balanced, while the Peak is unbalanced?* *Can anyone recommend a good DAC to go with my setup?*
   
*The Audio GD Pheonix looks like a good balanced amp. Would this be better money spent over the Apex Peak/Volcano? *


----------



## tme110

The issue is not that it only has RCA connections, the issue is that this is a SE amp - not a ballanced amp.  I think it is this thread that that has come up a lot.  The same is true of the LF and RWA dedicated LCD-2 HPA, leben, etc (so it had to have been this thread that it's come up in).  So there are a lot of crazy high end amps that are SE and a lot of notable poeple on this thread who have recently added that they see no benifit in going ballanced.  I have a ballanced DAC that I use with my peak (single ended obvioiusly) and I admit I wanted to go ballanced myself but this thread helped me stay where I was.  Going fully ballanced I think would basically increase the cost of the same amp by about 100%?
   
  The pheonix is also pretty awesome but poeple usually want a SS OR tube amp.


----------



## Questhate

Quote: 





questhate said:


> Has anyone tried this with a Marantz 2220B? I saw one locally for 125 dollars and figured I'd give it a shot. At the very least it sure does LOOK cool.


 

 Nevermind. Just bought it after talking him down to $75. I'll play this weekend and report back.


----------



## tme110

wow, thats a steal!  congrats on the Marantz.


----------



## SemiAudiophile

From my experience, I do not think the LCD-2 is a headphone that benefits much from going balanced. You're better off saving your money because a good SE amp will do just as good. I would only go balanced if using a headphone like HD650 or if you are just very curious and like to experiment.


----------



## jax

buttsack said:


> I've almost decided to get the Apex Peak/Volcano to go with the LCD-2 I purchase. *Is the fact that the Apex Peak connects to a DAC via RCA a bad thing and would it be better to have XLR connections?*
> 
> I'll also get a 3m Q-Audio cable for them after reading a few positive reviews.
> 
> ...




I would haven't heard the Phoenix but the APV is a no-brainer for LCD-2's. There was a Ref. 7 on Audiogon yesterday for $1k which is a pretty good deal. I have the Ref. 8 and would highly recommend that as well. Kingwa no longer offers either so you'll be limited to the used market.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





semiaudiophile said:


> From my experience, I do not think the LCD-2 is a headphone that benefits much from going balanced. You're better off saving your money because a good SE amp will do just as good. I would only go balanced if using a headphone like HD650 or if you are just very curious and like to experiment.


 

 That's not really my experience, but of course there are different factors at play for us. With the WA22 the SE output is supposed to be the same as the balanced outputs as long as you are using a balanced source. What balanced amp is your experience based on?

  
  Quote: 





jax said:


> I would haven't heard the Phoenix but the APV is a no-brainer for LCD-2's. There was a Ref. 7 on Audiogon yesterday for $1k which is a pretty good deal. I have the Ref. 8 and would highly recommend that as well. Kingwa no longer offers either so you'll be limited to the used market.


 

 What are the main differences between the Ref. 7 and the NFB-7 which is currently available?


----------



## SemiAudiophile

Quote:


grokit said:


> That's not really my experience, but of course there are different factors at play for us. With the WA22 the SE output is supposed to be the same as the balanced outputs as long as you are using a balanced source. What balanced amp is your experience based on?


 

 Based on using the NFB-10ES balanced out. Only difference I hear out of the balance out vs. single ended is maybe a slightly wider soundstage and more gain. I can get the same soundstage or even larger running the LCD-2 off of the Taboo, which is single ended.


----------



## Zorlac

How would the LD VII+ work with the LCD-2 headphones? I see only one slight mention of it on this entire thread, but no opinions...
   
  I know the Denon D7000 headphones at 25-Ohms are horrible with the LD VII+. I'm just afraid of the same issues since the LCD-2 headphones are still pretty low at 50-Ohms.


----------



## Wedge

Quote: 





buttsack said:


> I've almost decided to get the Apex Peak/Volcano to go with the LCD-2 I purchase. *Is the fact that the Apex Peak connects to a DAC via RCA a bad thing and would it be better to have XLR connections?*
> 
> I'll also get a 3m Q-Audio cable for them after reading a few positive reviews.
> 
> ...


 

 I have Apex P/V, if its temporary I would say yeah go use the Sony Receiver.  If your sound card in your PC is an Asus Xonar Essence or something like that then I would just skip the receiver even for temporary purposes.  I have all SE amps, and really don't bother searching one way or another, most amps designed to be balanced amps from the get go sound better as balanced then when you run them in SE and those amps that are SE all the way can sound just as good or better.
   
  My P/V is currently:
   

   
  Letting my new LCD-2 rev.2 see a few hours while my new turntable gets a couple of songs in.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





zorlac said:


> How would the LD VII+ work with the LCD-2 headphones? I see only one slight mention of it on this entire thread, but no opinions...
> 
> I know the Denon D7000 headphones at 25-Ohms are horrible with the LD VII+. I'm just afraid of the same issues since the LCD-2 headphones are still pretty low at 50-Ohms.


 

 With the high/low impedance selector on the balanced WA22, the consensus is that the LCD-2 is best driven with the high impedance setting selected. Hope that helps


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





questhate said:


> Nevermind. Just bought it after talking him down to $75. I'll play this weekend and report back.


 

 Grab it.


----------



## Hero Kid

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





semiaudiophile said:


> Quote:
> 
> Based on using the NFB-10ES balanced out. Only difference I hear out of the balance out vs. single ended is maybe a slightly wider soundstage and more gain. I can get the same soundstage or even larger running the LCD-2 off of the Taboo, which is single ended.


 

 You are using the Taboo?  How do you like it with the LCD?


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





semiaudiophile said:


> From my experience, I do not think the LCD-2 is a headphone that benefits much from going balanced. You're better off saving your money because a good SE amp will do just as good. I would only go balanced if using a headphone like HD650 or if you are just very curious and like to experiment.


 


  I guess it depends on the balanced setup. My W4S DAC-2 --> WA22 --> Moon Audio Silver Dragon balanced cable is the best I've heard these headphones to date. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  If you find balanced works for the HD650s, I'm a little surprised you didn't find the more resolving and revealing LCD-2s wouldn't also benefit.
   
   
  Quote: 





semiaudiophile said:


> Quote:
> 
> Based on using the NFB-10ES balanced out. Only difference I hear out of the balance out vs. single ended is maybe a slightly wider soundstage and more gain. I can get the same soundstage or even larger running the LCD-2 off of the Taboo, which is single ended.


 
   
  Could be that the NFB-10ES might be why you don't hear much of a difference?


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





grokit said:


> That's not really my experience, but of course there are different factors at play for us. With the WA22 the S*E output is supposed to be the same as the balanced outputs as long as you are using a balanced source. *What balanced amp is your experience based on?


 

 Vince, while the balanced inputs make a good difference with SQ on the WA22, a balanced headphone cable does also improve what I'm hearing. Not as much mind you, but the bass has tightened up (on my LCD-2s and HD800s) and the sound staging has opened up too.


----------



## SemiAudiophile

Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> I guess it depends on the balanced setup. My W4S DAC-2 --> WA22 --> Moon Audio Silver Dragon balanced cable is the best I've heard these headphones to date.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  I don't think it's the NFB-10ES as I can hear differences between balance and single-ended with other headphones. My finding is that not all headphones benefit from balance configuration. For example, with Grado headphones, going balanced will affect it's focus where everything seems wider and more dispersed, but you lose the center focus of listening single ended. But with the HD650 it made a drastic improvement when going balanced (improvements such as soundstage, air, separation, and speed). Listening to the LCD-2 single-ended is just as resolving and revealing as listening it balanced to my ears. 
   
  Maybe I'll change my mind when I pick up the WA22. I've had my eyes on it for a while, but I see it as more of a luxury amp than the amps that I currently have which are more practical for my needs. 
  
  Quote: 





warriorant said:


> You are using the Taboo?  How do you like it with the LCD?


 
  I think the Taboo has excellent synergy with the LCD-2. I haven't gotten around doing any extensive tube rolling on it, but I like the setup I currently have. The sound signature of the Taboo is pretty much exactly what I like. It is transparent, detailed, yet musical. Sounds kinda like the Mapletree amps but not as warm and romantic. I hear that it gets better when paired with a preamp like the CSP2.


----------



## Buttsack

I think I'll just stick with an unbalanced system for now and maybe later down the track look into balanced. This is my first good setup so I don't want to overcomplicate things.
   
*Would the Audio-GD Reference 7 be a good addition to the **Apex Peak/Volcano and LCD-2**?* Most of my music is MP3 and sampled at 44.1khz. The best sample rate I have is flac with 96khz.
  Since the Ref7 is [size=small]24bit/96khz will that be enough[/size] for 96khz flac files? Or is the DAC suppose to be able to handle twice the sample rate?
   
  Would I be better off with the Wyred 4 Sound DAC-2 or one of the Audio GD DAC's - NFB 1,2,3,7 or 8?


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





buttsack said:


> *Would the Audio-GD Reference 7 be a good addition to the **Apex Peak/Volcano and LCD-2**?* Most of my music is MP3 and sampled at 44.1khz. The best sample rate I have is flac with 96khz.
> Since the Ref7 is [size=small]24bit/96khz will that be enough[/size] for 96khz flac files? Or is the DAC suppose to be able to handle twice the sample rate?
> 
> Would I be better off with the Wyred 4 Sound DAC-2 or one of the Audio GD DAC's - NFB 1,2,3,7 or 8?


 

  
  I looked for a long time when I wanted to buy a new DAC.  I studied the Audio GD site for a long time.  Then I decided the site was way too confusing. There were way too many models. It was too confusing and too much work for me to decide to get anything from Audio GD.  I didn't care what anyone said in the threads or how good the units sounded all the confusion and in my opinion very poor website  made me turn elsewhere to spend my money.  I just couldn't do it.


----------



## jax

Quote: 





grokit said:


> What are the main differences between the Ref. 7 and the NFB-7 which is currently available?


 


  I've never heard the NFB-7 so could not comment on how it sounds.  The current Audio-GD DAC you mention utilizes the Sabre chip which is a sigma-delta chip.  The Ref 7 uses the no longer available, last of the great R2R Ladder chips - the PCM1704UK.  I can only comment on the the latter as both DACs I own use that chip.  I find the implementation of that chip in both my DACs to be very natural and analog sounding with not a trace of digital harshness to them.  I've heard Sabre chips in a few other DACs and none have floated my boat - so I stick with what I like.  That difference alone, using the two very different DAC chips, probably speaks a whole lot to the character of each of the two DACs you ask about.  I have no idea how it actually manifests itself though.  You might try the Audio-GD threads for further info.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> Could be that the NFB-10ES might be why you don't hear much of a difference?


 

 That's pretty much what I was thinking as well.

  
  Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> Vince, while the balanced inputs make a good difference with SQ on the WA22, a balanced headphone cable does also improve what I'm hearing. Not as much mind you, but the bass has tightened up (on my LCD-2s and HD800s) and the sound staging has opened up too.


 

 Totally agreed, I was just parroting what the manufacturer says about the WA22. My experience tells me that it sounds much better balanced, but as you said the headphone cable also makes a difference.

  
  Quote: 





semiaudiophile said:


> I don't think it's the NFB-10ES as I can hear differences between balance and single-ended with other headphones. My finding is that not all headphones benefit from balance configuration. For example, with Grado headphones, going balanced will affect it's focus where everything seems wider and more dispersed, but you lose the center focus of listening single ended. But with the HD650 it made a drastic improvement when going balanced (improvements such as soundstage, air, separation, and speed). Listening to the LCD-2 single-ended is just as resolving and revealing as listening it balanced to my ears.
> 
> Maybe I'll change my mind when I pick up the WA22. I've had my eyes on it for a while, but I see it as more of a luxury amp than the amps that I currently have which are more practical for my needs.
> 
> I think the Taboo has excellent synergy with the LCD-2. I haven't gotten around doing any extensive tube rolling on it, but I like the setup I currently have. The sound signature of the Taboo is pretty much exactly what I like. It is transparent, detailed, yet musical. Sounds kinda like the Mapletree amps but not as warm and romantic. I hear that it gets better when paired with a preamp like the CSP2.


 

 I've been trying to get ahold of my friend's HD650 to check it out balanced out of my Woo, as my experience with the HD600 is different than yours is with the HD650. I feel that the imaging actually gets all screwed up when I run the HD600 balanced, I seem to prefer that headphone single-ended. I do prefer the HD600 to the HD650 in general as I had it a couple of times and sold it off quickly each time but it's been a while. I also sold off my first HD600, it was too spiky up high for me but I like the pair I have now. OT, but I have learned recently the my current HD600 is actually an earlier issue before Sennheiser updated the drivers.
   
   
  Quote: 





jax said:


> I've never heard the NFB-7 so could not comment on how it sounds.  The current Audio-GD DAC you mention utilizes the Sabre chip which is a sigma-delta chip.  The Ref 7 uses the no longer available, last of the great R2R Ladder chips - the PCM1704UK.  I can only comment on the the latter as both DACs I own use that chip.  I find the implementation of that chip in both my DACs to be very natural and analog sounding with not a trace of digital harshness to them.  I've heard Sabre chips in a few other DACs and none have floated my boat - so I stick with what I like.  That difference alone, using the two very different DAC chips, probably speaks a whole lot to the character of each of the two DACs you ask about.  I have no idea how it actually manifests itself though.  You might try the Audio-GD threads for further info.


 

 Thanks for the reply. From what I have read the Sabre 9018-based DACs can be a little too clinical for use with a SS amp and do much better with tubes which is why I want to try one with my Woo. You're running a hybrid amp, the APV?


----------



## Wedge

Quote: 





buttsack said:


> I think I'll just stick with an unbalanced system for now and maybe later down the track look into balanced. This is my first good setup so I don't want to overcomplicate things.
> 
> *Would the Audio-GD Reference 7 be a good addition to the **Apex Peak/Volcano and LCD-2**?* Most of my music is MP3 and sampled at 44.1khz. The best sample rate I have is flac with 96khz.
> Since the Ref7 is [size=small]24bit/96khz will that be enough[/size] for 96khz flac files? Or is the DAC suppose to be able to handle twice the sample rate?
> ...


 

 It sounded like u weren't going to buy a DAC soon, I would recommend waiting to see what is out at that point in time to decide which DAC to buy, as new DACs may be out at that point.  Examples might include some of Schiit's offerings, their cheapest uses an AKM DAC.  Another current offering is the PS Audio DL III, I like this DAC quite a bit.


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





wedge said:


> I have Apex P/V, if its temporary I would say yeah go use the Sony Receiver.  If your sound card in your PC is an Asus Xonar Essence or something like that then I would just skip the receiver even for temporary purposes.  I have all SE amps, and really don't bother searching one way or another, most amps designed to be balanced amps from the get go sound better as balanced then when you run them in SE and those amps that are SE all the way can sound just as good or better.
> 
> My P/V is currently:
> 
> ...


 

 That tuntable looks SWeet!  Does it sound like it looks?


----------



## Wedge

Sounds awesome so far.  I'm still tweaking it a bit, these turn tables have so many things going on them.


----------



## jax

Quote: 





grokit said:


> Thanks for the reply. From what I have read the Sabre 9018-based DACs can be a little too clinical for use with a SS amp and do much better with tubes which is why I want to try one with my Woo. You're running a hybrid amp, the APV?


 
   
  No. Per my sig file, I run a Violectric V181 (SS) and run balanced from DAC to amp, and from amp to cans.  The few Sabre DACs I've heard sounded to me like they erred on the side of ultra-revealing at the expense of some sense of relaxed musicality for lack of a better term.  Again, not enough long-term exposure to say with any sense of surety that this was the rule and that there are exceptions.  Just knee-jerk reactions and brief exposures so take it for what that's worth.  The DACs I've always preferred have a more natural and less aggressive sound, such as the two I use now.  For a reference, a DAC that I have tried extensively that I really hated the sound of in two different versions is the Benchmark.  I find that DAC to be to clinical, sterile.  It is not a Sabre based DAC though, but it may give you some idea of the kind of sound I really don't like.


----------



## jax

Quote: 





wedge said:


> It sounded like u weren't going to buy a DAC soon, I would recommend waiting to see what is out at that point in time to decide which DAC to buy, as new DACs may be out at that point.  Examples might include some of Schiit's offerings, their cheapest uses an AKM DAC.  Another current offering is the PS Audio DL III, I like this DAC quite a bit.


 

 The AKM DAC in the Modwright Transporter I used to own was an excellent implementation of that chip and is a sigma-delta chip that I really enjoyed the sound of (albeit through a tube-buffered output section).  AKM makes many chips so not sure that it's the same one Schiit may be using. 
   
  I also think the PS Audio DL III offers great sound for $ ratio and is a fine choice regardless of price. I owned one shortly before getting the Audio-GD.  For the extra $ the Audio-GD that I use brought with it audible refinement and resolution, without any sense of harshness.


----------



## tme110

No you dont have to get a DAC to hangle twice the sample rate.
  
  Quote: 





buttsack said:


> I think I'll just stick with an unbalanced system for now and maybe later down the track look into balanced. This is my first good setup so I don't want to overcomplicate things.
> 
> *Would the Audio-GD Reference 7 be a good addition to the **Apex Peak/Volcano and LCD-2**?* Most of my music is MP3 and sampled at 44.1khz. The best sample rate I have is flac with 96khz.
> Since the Ref7 is [size=small]24bit/96khz will that be enough[/size] for 96khz flac files? Or is the DAC suppose to be able to handle twice the sample rate?
> ...


----------



## RedBull

Quote:


jax said:


> The few Sabre DACs I've heard sounded to me like they erred on the side of ultra-revealing at the expense of some sense of relaxed musicality for lack of a better term.  Again, not enough long-term exposure to say with any sense of surety that this was the rule and that there are exceptions.  Just knee-jerk reactions and brief exposures so take it for what that's worth.  The DACs I've always preferred have a more natural and less aggressive sound, such as the two I use now.  For a reference, a DAC that I have tried extensively that I really hated the sound of in two different versions is the Benchmark.  I find that DAC to be to clinical, sterile.  It is not a Sabre based DAC though, but it may give you some idea of the kind of sound I really don't like.


 

 Agree with you on the preference of more relax DAC. 
  But btw, from impression, I understand that Vio signature is slightly on the heavier side, don't you find it too warm pairing them with A-Gd DAC?  \
  The reason I ask is because I find my NFB-2 pairing very very nice with my BCL, it added the needed weight to BCL, but slightly bit too heavy with my tube amp, not to the point I can't live with them though.  What do you think?


----------



## Br777

just got my lcd2 - had about 10 minutes listening time with
  Ipod - lod - rx mk2 - lcd2
   
  definitely underwhelmed..
   
  its clear the lcd2 has potential, but not with this rig
   
  very much lacking in bass.. (i'm a bass head and former thunderpants owner)
  even with my ipod's bass boost i wasnt impressed.
   
  definitely lacking that warm mid tube sound i had with the thunderpants and cavalli CTH..
   
  i never intended to keep the mk2, and still dont.. hopefully the sr71B will do better.. otherwise i may have to explor the L3 (with its bass boost) or the ALO continental.
   
  more listening time is needed of course...  these are very quick impressions.


----------



## SemiAudiophile

Quote: 





jax said:


> No. Per my sig file, I run a Violectric V181 (SS) and run balanced from DAC to amp, and from amp to cans.  The few Sabre DACs I've heard sounded to me like they erred on the side of ultra-revealing at the expense of some sense of relaxed musicality for lack of a better term.  Again, not enough long-term exposure to say with any sense of surety that this was the rule and that there are exceptions.  Just knee-jerk reactions and brief exposures so take it for what that's worth.  The DACs I've always preferred have a more natural and less aggressive sound, such as the two I use now.  For a reference, a DAC that I have tried extensively that I really hated the sound of in two different versions is the Benchmark.  I find that DAC to be to clinical, sterile.  It is not a Sabre based DAC though, but it may give you some idea of the kind of sound I really don't like.


 

   
  Quote: 





jax said:


> The AKM DAC in the Modwright Transporter I used to own was an excellent implementation of that chip and is a sigma-delta chip that I really enjoyed the sound of (albeit through a tube-buffered output section).  AKM makes many chips so not sure that it's the same one Schiit may be using.
> 
> I also think the PS Audio DL III offers great sound for $ ratio and is a fine choice regardless of price. I owned one shortly before getting the Audio-GD.  For the extra $ the Audio-GD that I use brought with it audible refinement and resolution, without any sense of harshness.


 

 Your comments make me wonder what Audio-GD reference DACs sound like. I've owned the PS Audio DL III (not the cullen mod) but didn't find anything really special bout it. I guess I'm more drawn to clinical DACs because I've owned and liked the m902 (supposedly similar to Benchmark), and I'm liking the sound of the NFB-10ES (sabre based) as well.  I wonder if I'm getting bored at times because of the DAC I'm listening to. The only problem is musical DACs tend to be warm sounding, which I don't like, which is why I guess I stick to the clinical ones.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





jax said:


> No. Per my sig file, I run a Violectric V181 (SS) and run balanced from DAC to amp, and from amp to cans.  The few Sabre DACs I've heard sounded to me like they erred on the side of ultra-revealing at the expense of some sense of relaxed musicality for lack of a better term.  Again, not enough long-term exposure to say with any sense of surety that this was the rule and that there are exceptions.  Just knee-jerk reactions and brief exposures so take it for what that's worth.  The DACs I've always preferred have a more natural and less aggressive sound, such as the two I use now.  For a reference, a DAC that I have tried extensively that I really hated the sound of in two different versions is the Benchmark.  I find that DAC to be to clinical, sterile.  It is not a Sabre based DAC though, but it may give you some idea of the kind of sound I really don't like.


 

 I have read similar impressions of the Benchmark before, it seems to be a love it or hate it DAC. The sound science guys seem to like it for its neutrality though whatever that may mean. From what I have read the later revisions are a little less clinical sounding. I do enjoy my Mini-i, it has dual AD1955 converter chips that are described as musical. Its USB input leaves a lot to be desired but with a good coax converter it's a giant-killer.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





semiaudiophile said:


> Your comments make me wonder what Audio-GD reference DACs sound like. I've owned the PS Audio DL III (not the cullen mod) but didn't find anything really special bout it. I guess I'm more drawn to clinical DACs because I've owned and liked the m902 (supposedly similar to Benchmark), and I'm liking the sound of the NFB-10ES (sabre based) as well.  I wonder if I'm getting bored at times because of the DAC I'm listening to. The only problem is musical DACs tend to be warm sounding, which I don't like, which is why I guess I stick to the clinical ones.


 

 The current Audio-GD DACs are either Sabre-9018 based or they use the Wolfson 8741, which has been described as a little more forgiving or musical but you probably already know that. According to them:
   
  "(The) NFB-7 has extremely high fidelity; its sound signature is neutral. It can show how good or how bad a recording is. If you are looking for a DAC which can always deliver quite warm or tube sound, the NFB-7 (ES9018) is maybe not your cup of tea. Maybe the NFB-8 (WM8741) will be better."


----------



## Kremer930

I know that the LCD2 are relatively easy to drive, especially for planars, but they still have a max power handling of 14 watts and so my first guess would be that the ALO just cant output the juice that they need.  The 71B or ibasso PB2 should provide some added kick and restore the bass.  Some burn in time will also help free up the drivers.
   
  Has anyone tried that new ALO portable tube amp?  It looks very cool but I ruled it out as it didnt look like it would deal with my JH16 all that well.  But still a very sexy little amp.
  
  Quote: 





br777 said:


> just got my lcd2 - had about 10 minutes listening time with
> Ipod - lod - rx mk2 - lcd2
> 
> definitely underwhelmed..
> ...


----------



## Hawaiiancerveza

Has anyone heard the Peachtree nova with these cans?


----------



## SP Wild

I've been doing my research, and found this:
   
http://www.transcendentsound.com/Transcendent/Transcendent_Sound_Single-Ended_OTL.html
   
  I would like to try it with the LCD2s.
   
  I asked, and was told at least 3 watts RMS into 50 ohms.


----------



## Kremer930

Looks like they may have quoted you total power rather than the more common power per channel.


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





hawaiiancerveza said:


> Has anyone heard the Peachtree nova with these cans?


 

 I thought it worked quite well with the LCD2s from a brief audition.


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





kremer930 said:


> Looks like they may have quoted you total power rather than the more common power per channel.


 


  I thought the LCD2s were incredibly amazing with 400 mw out of the Lehmann BCL.  1.5 watts will be awesome for such a worse case scenario.
   
  If there is one thing that came positive out of this headphone obsession is the introduction of tubes.  I would never have thought about them ever otherwise.  Now I can't live without them.


----------



## SHAHZADA123

I recently bought an amp to headphone adapter to try with the LCD-2s.  http://aloaudio.com/miniwatt-headphone-adapter.html 
  Hooked it up with my Denson B-320 power amp using Denson B-200 PreAmp. http://www.densen.dk/index.php?page=products&produkt=b320 
http://www.densen.dk/index.php?page=products&produkt=b200 
   
  The LCD-2s never sounded better (other amps; Woo WA22, Schiit Lyr, Headroom Ultra)
  My only beef is that there is a loud buzz even at zero voulume. Even if I switch off the preamp, the buzz remains.
   
  Any idea how I could get rid of this annoying buzzzzz
  thanks in advance


----------



## DeadEars

Quote: 





sp wild said:


> I've been doing my research, and found this:
> 
> http://www.transcendentsound.com/Transcendent/Transcendent_Sound_Single-Ended_OTL.html
> 
> ...


 
   
  Bruce Rosenblit is a gifted designer and has written some very good books on tube amp design.  For a number of years I ran a pair of Transcendent Sound monoblocks and gloried in the wide-open sound and crystal clarity of his OTL design.  He runs the tubes in class AB, I think, so they last a long time.  My old T8's were just slightly noisy on highly efficient speakers 98db/w.  That's the only thing that's kept me from trying the amp that you linked above as a headphone amp.
   
  The other outstanding OTL that I've heard lately is the Atma-Sphere MP1 preamp, which has a very very good headphone output.  If I were spending over $5k for a headphone amp, I'd go for that instead.  Also it would mate perfectly with my Atma-Sphere M60 monoblocks that I'm currently using (simply wonderful amps, but great room-heaters!).
   
  Anyway, I'd love to hear if you decide to go the Transcendent route, since I'm thinking of going that way too.  And the price is definitely right!!


----------



## Buttsack

Quote: 





wedge said:


> It sounded like u weren't going to buy a DAC soon, I would recommend waiting to see what is out at that point in time to decide which DAC to buy, as new DACs may be out at that point.  Examples might include some of Schiit's offerings, their cheapest uses an AKM DAC.  Another current offering is the PS Audio DL III, I like this DAC quite a bit.


 

 I may as well get a good DAC now to go with the Peak/Volcano and LCD-2, otherwise they won't get used to their potential and might dissapoint.
   
  I tried to buy the used Audio-GD Reference 7 *Jax *mentioned but was second in line so I missed out. *The best other options seem to be Audio GD NFB-7 or the Wyred 4 Sound DAC2.* *Would I be better off waiting for a used Ref7 or will I be just as happy with either DAC for the setup I'll be getting*. I just want to get it right the first time and not have to keep upgrading. I see a lot of people still use the Ref7 in their setup so it must be a good DAC.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





sp wild said:


> I thought the LCD2s were incredibly amazing with 400 mw out of the Lehmann BCL.  1.5 watts will be awesome for such a worse case scenario.
> 
> If there is one thing that came positive out of this headphone obsession is the introduction of tubes.  I would never have thought about them ever otherwise.  Now I can't live without them.


 

 Are you liking your BDA-1 better with tubes? I would think so, a little bit of euphonic flavor can go a long way in tempering a clinical-sounding DAC.
   
  Also if you go with the Transcendent are you going to build the kit? That looks like a great way to go.


----------



## Equus

Quote: 





buttsack said:


> I may as well get a good DAC now to go with the Peak/Volcano and LCD-2, otherwise they won't get used to their potential and might dissapoint.
> 
> I tried to buy the used Audio-GD Reference 7 *Jax *mentioned but was second in line so I missed out. *The best other options seem to be Audio GD NFB-7 or the Wyred 4 Sound DAC2.* *Would I be better off waiting for a used Ref7 or will I be just as happy with either DAC for the setup I'll be getting*. I just want to get it right the first time and not have to keep upgrading. I see a lot of people still use the Ref7 in their setup so it must be a good DAC.


 

 Lots of W4S DACs in setups too.  I haven't personally heard one, so I can't really comment on it.  Maybe PM some owners to get their take on the sound.  Pairing with the Peak/Volcano, I would personally probably steer clear from DACs that are more on the analytical side...the caveat is that would probably be my choice no matter the amp.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





equus said:


> Lots of W4S DACs in setups too.  I haven't personally heard one, so I can't really comment on it.  Maybe PM some owners to get their take on the sound.  Pairing with the Peak/Volcano, I would personally probably steer clear from DACs that are more on the analytical side...the caveat is that would probably be my choice no matter the amp.


 

 The W4S DAC-2 in not an analytical sounding DAC.


----------



## sachu

Quote:


warriorant said:


> The W4S DAC-2 in not an analytical sounding DAC.


 
   
  And Ethan's comment made no such claim so why quote him ?


----------



## WarriorAnt

Was not calling him out. Just adding to his statement.  I thought he wanted W4S DAC-2 owners to comment on the DAC-2  Must have read the post wrong.


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





grokit said:


> Are you liking your BDA-1 better with tubes? I would think so, a little bit of euphonic flavor can go a long way in tempering a clinical-sounding DAC.
> 
> Also if you go with the Transcendent are you going to build the kit? That looks like a great way to go.


 

 With dynamics I seem to prefer tubes regardless of source.  With the LCD2 I have yet to hear tubes that can surpass my solid state so far, in that I never really had a high end tube amp to try with the LCD2s.  I never thought the BDA-1 was overly clinical - it had a darker treble than either dacmagic or the reference 7.
   
  Bob Rosenblit told me that the noise level will will be good...and I want to DIY as I have never built a tube amp.  But there is a catch that leaves me on the fence.  If it hums with the LCD2, there are no guarantees because of the DIY unregulated workmanship.


----------



## DeadEars

Quote: 





sp wild said:


> With dynamics I seem to prefer tubes regardless of source.  With the LCD2 I have yet to hear tubes that can surpass my solid state so far, in that I never really had a high end tube amp to try with the LCD2s.  I never thought the BDA-1 was overly clinical - it had a darker treble than either dacmagic or the reference 7.
> 
> Bob Rosenblit told me that the noise level will will be good...and I want to DIY as I have never built a tube amp.  But there is a catch that leaves me on the fence.  If it hums with the LCD2, there are no guarantees because of the DIY unregulated workmanship.


 



 Should be no worries there.  When I built my Transcendent T8's (nearly 10 yrs ago), I had one monoblock that was noisy and I couldn't figure it out.  Sent it back to the factory and they found a defective tube socket which they replaced and rewired.  Bruce is always very supportive during the process, and the fix was cheap.  Also the new amps are almost all circuit board, so the only tricky bits are the twiddly soldering of jacks & things like that.  By report it is a really easy kit to complete.
   
  HTH


----------



## Argo Duck

Well, I have a problem. I have decided my Meier Concerto - easily best SS match with the LCD2 rev 1 of my current stable - should be complemented with a Decware amp, of which the options are the Taboo (CSP2+ may be added sooner or later) or the MiniTorii.
   
  But which? I know for sure there are strong advocates of either option, and as well  - sampling the forums at Decware's site - that one customer found a significant difference between the two amps _with his speakers _in favor of the MiniTorii.
   
  Has anyone had the opportunity to compare them using the LCD2 or even one of the HE's for that matter?
   
  Any other general comments from owners of either one - especially now some time has passed since you first bought and perhaps commented on the amp - would also be greatly appreciated, leaving aside such high-cost rivals as the Leben or Liquid Fire (outside my budget).
   
  TIA, André


----------



## rrahman

Just wanna say, I agree. I heard my lcd2 r2's with a burson hd160 today and was very unimpressed.  I'd like to hear my lcd2s with a beta 22, but concerto has set the bar awful high for SS amps.
   
  Quote: 





argo duck said:


> Well, I have a problem. I have decided my Meier Concerto - easily best SS match with the LCD2 rev 1 of my current stable


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





rrahman said:


> Just wanna say, I agree. I heard my lcd2 r2's with a burson hd160 today and was very unimpressed.


----------



## jms91

Wow really? That's surprising since I actually preferred the Burson to the Concerto and Stagedac combo with a few pair of mid-fi cans mainly being the HD-650s. Although I never auditioned the LCD-2 with the Burson I would have thought that would be a great combo considering the reviews and how well it drove almost anything I plugged into it. I actually now prefer the Lyr over the concerto overall after doing some tube rolling especially considering the price


----------



## rrahman

Actually I may eat my words. I noticed the so called warmth that people talk about, but my biggest problem was a noticeable hiss that wasn't present w/ the concerto when plugged into the higher gain output.  In contrast, I think the Burson was a great pairing for the T1 moreso than my concerto.  600 ohm got rid of the hiss and I think the T1 benefits a lil more w/ the warmth.
   
  I was listenin to an iphone3gs => wadia transport => psaudio digital link III => burson 160 and iphone 3gs => wadia => 160D
   
  EDIT: I didn't mean to say that the burson was a poor pairing, rather that I prefer concerto.
  
  Quote: 





fabio-fi said:


> Wow, most of my friends love that match. Are your ears failing?


----------



## Radio_head

Loving the HA-160D with the LCD-2's.  I'm not really noticing a hiss from high gain - I think there may have been a problem with earlier models that they fixed with the later ones.


----------



## grokit

Also, did you guys try both outputs of the Bursons? I believe that they are different impedances. I know with my WA22 the LCD-2 sounds better with the higher impedance setting.


----------



## Radio_head

Sounds better out of the high with the LCD-2.


----------



## Argo Duck

There is a thread here http://www.head-fi.org/t/536713/saying-hello-and-the-burson-ha-160d-versus-the-corda-concerto-corda-stagedac/15 that documents a head-to-head comparison of the Burson and Concerto. They could find no differences. The LCD2 was not one of the phones used. As zenpunk noted "I believe anybody hesitating between those units will have to make their decision more based on features than on SQ".
   
  Personally, I haven't heard the Burson and have no view about it. Of the amps I currently use, the Concerto is well ahead wrt LCD2. Interestingly, it sounds very different from Jan Meier's Opera, which is by comparison dark - but seems to suit my recently acquired T1 quite well on first listen.
   
  However, just a reminder - was asking about impressions of MiniTorii versus Taboo (both Decware). Anyone?


----------



## Argo Duck

The Lyr is one of the amps in my collection. I would describe it as showing considerable potential but not really there yet _to my ears_. The salient point may be the tube rolling. Currently I'm in the early days of Schiit-sourced 6BZ7 tubes.
  Quote: 





> * I actually now prefer the Lyr over the concerto overall after doing some tube rolling* especially considering the price


----------



## K3cT

Quote: 





buttsack said:


> I may as well get a good DAC now to go with the Peak/Volcano and LCD-2, otherwise they won't get used to their potential and might dissapoint.
> 
> I tried to buy the used Audio-GD Reference 7 *Jax *mentioned but was second in line so I missed out. *The best other options seem to be Audio GD NFB-7 or the Wyred 4 Sound DAC2.* *Would I be better off waiting for a used Ref7 or will I be just as happy with either DAC for the setup I'll be getting*. I just want to get it right the first time and not have to keep upgrading. I see a lot of people still use the Ref7 in their setup so it must be a good DAC.


 


  You're in Australia so why don't you get that PDX or whatever it's called that seems to be trending now in your audio community? 
   
  And those older, R2R DACs have a different kind of sound to their newer Sabre descendants. Both REF 7.1 and my own PCM63-based Parasound 1100HD have a kind of relaxed but clear presentation as opposed to the Sabre (impressions based on Buffalo II) which is more resolving and edgier. Midrange is where these chips seem to excel at, there is a kind of immediacy/realism to the vocal that seems to be unique in these DACs.


----------



## WNBC

Scored a good deal on some Siemens CCa chrome plate and I must say that the Lyr was very good before and now with the right tube (for my set-up) it has definitely arrived for me.  People will complain about  tubes costing more than a couple bucks and that is fine but I think that if one is willing to spend good money on LCD cables that an equivalent or greater benefit can be had with a top-notch tube.  Lyr w/ Siemens CCa + DAC-2 + LCD-2 rev2 w/ Norse cable, there is higher-end than this set-up but I'm really enjoying this combo.  With that said, the RCA 6BZ7 is a fantastic tube for the price point.   I'm not sure which flavor of 6BZ7 Schiit is offering.  That tube is revealing a good percentage of what the Lyr can do, there's just a little more room for improvement.  IMHO of course, there's no way to quantify happiness in audio 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.  
  
  Quote: 





argo duck said:


> The Lyr is one of the amps in my collection. I would describe it as showing considerable potential* but not really there yet* _to my ears_. *The salient point may be the tube rolling*. Currently I'm in the early days of Schiit-sourced 6BZ7 tubes.


----------



## adydula

My 6BZ7's are GE from Schiit.
   
  Alex..


----------



## Buttsack

Quote: 





k3ct said:


> You're in Australia so why don't you get that PDX or whatever it's called that seems to be trending now in your audio community?
> 
> And those older, R2R DACs have a different kind of sound to their newer Sabre descendants. Both REF 7.1 and my own PCM63-based Parasound 1100HD have a kind of relaxed but clear presentation as opposed to the Sabre (impressions based on Buffalo II) which is more resolving and edgier. Midrange is where these chips seem to excel at, there is a kind of immediacy/realism to the vocal that seems to be unique in these DACs.


 
   
  I'm not a part of the audio community here in Australia so I have never heard of the PDX. The cost of living here in Australia is high so I would expect the PDX to be overpriced.
   
  From all of the Reference 7 descriptions I've read that sounds like the kind of DAC I'm after. If I'm after the relaxed clear sound so would I not like the sound of the Wyred 4 Sound DAC2? Would I be better off waiting for a second hand Reference 7? I don't want to pay big $$$ for something I will want to upgrade. I haven't talked to anyone who has tried the LCD-2 + Peak/Volcano with the Wyred 4 Sound DAC2.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





k3ct said:


> You're in Australia so why don't you get that PDX or whatever it's called that seems to be trending now in your audio community?
> 
> 
> 
> And those older, R2R DACs have a different kind of sound to their newer Sabre descendants. Both REF 7.1 and my own PCM63-based Parasound 1100HD have a kind of relaxed but clear presentation as opposed to the Sabre (impressions based on Buffalo II) which is more resolving and edgier. Midrange is where these chips seem to excel at, there is a kind of immediacy/realism to the vocal that seems to be unique in these DACs.





   

  I beleive this blanket statement concerning the Sabre chip is a bit misleading particulalry when it comes the the Wyred4sound DAC-2.   The DAC-2 uses the Sabre chip and it is in no way edgy.  Actually there is nothing about the DAC-2 that I would call edgy.   As with any DAC it is the way a chip is implemented within a design and also dependent on the quality of the analog output stage.  The DAC-2 is superb in both these aspects.   There are numerous reviews on the DAC-2 and a number of users of the DAC-2 in these threads.  Not one of them has called the DAC-2 an edgy DAC.

   

   

   Perhaps it might be more helpful if you were to say your observations of the sabre chip is not actually based on the chip itself but on the Buffalo II DAC with which you have epxerienced this chip.   Simply because one or two DACs using the Sabre chip have a particular signature does not mean that all DACs using that chip have the same signature.   Your impression is based on your Buffalo II DAC which employs a Sabre chip, so your observations and impressions are really based on the Buffalo DAC and not the chip itself.   Not all DAC's using this chip are soniclly the same so there is more going on than the chip itself.


----------



## Currawong

I've been listening more with the ULN-2 and Stacker II lately as it is more mellow and euphoric than my Audio-gd rig, especially with with jazz and vocals.  Feeling like some rock though the combo wasn't lively enough, so I've switched back. It has given me an appreciation of what some people must be experiencing with different rigs though when I've only been used to wide and crystal clear, if a touch less musical sound.
  
  Quote: 





buttsack said:


> I'm not a part of the audio community here in Australia so I have never heard of the PDX. The cost of living here in Australia is high so I would expect the PDX to be overpriced.
> 
> From all of the Reference 7 descriptions I've read that sounds like the kind of DAC I'm after. If I'm after the relaxed clear sound so would I not like the sound of the Wyred 4 Sound DAC2? Would I be better off waiting for a second hand Reference 7? I don't want to pay big $$$ for something I will want to upgrade. I haven't talked to anyone who has tried the LCD-2 + Peak/Volcano with the Wyred 4 Sound DAC2.


 

 I just missed out on one of five 7.1s available this month but was told they will be making small batches of them every month.


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





grokit said:


> Also, did you guys try both outputs of the Bursons? I believe that they are different impedances. I know with my WA22 the LCD-2 sounds better with the higher impedance setting.


 


   


  Quote: 





radio_head said:


> Sounds better out of the high with the LCD-2.


 

 Funny, I too prefer the LCD-2s (50 ohms) with the higher output impedance on my WA22...likely due to the fact that damping factors are not the same for orthos as their drivers move completely differently from dynamic cans.


----------



## sillysally

Quote: 





grokit said:


> Also, did you guys try both outputs of the Bursons? I believe that they are different impedances. I know with my WA22 the LCD-2 sounds better with the higher impedance setting.


 
  Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> Funny, I too prefer the LCD-2s (50 ohms) with the higher output impedance on my WA22...likely due to the fact that damping factors are not the same for orthos as their drivers move completely differently from dynamic cans.


 

 Yes I have heard folks that have the WA5LE say the same thing using the HE6's.
   
  Granted nobody that I know of uses the same tubes in there WA5LE as I do, but with both my WA5LE and Liquid Fire amps I find by using the high imp jack that there is a loss in detail/background. Yes by using the high imp jack the sound is a little louder  but the loss in detail is fairly big, and knowing what I am missing that loss would drive me nuts.Its for that reason why I think the WA22 is a little under powered for the LCD2 or the HE6's.
   
  I should add that with both my WA5LE and Liquid Fire amps, volume is not a problem using the low imp jack.


----------



## nigeljames

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> *I beleive this blanket statement concerning the Sabre chip is a bit misleading* particulalry when it comes the the Wyred4sound DAC-2.   The DAC-2 uses the Sabre chip and it is in no way edgy.  Actually there is nothing about the DAC-2 that I would call edgy.   As with any DAC it is the way a chip is implemented within a design and also dependent on the quality of the analog output stage.  The DAC-2 is superb in both these aspects.   There are numerous reviews on the DAC-2 and a number of users of the DAC-2 in these threads.  Not one of them has called the DAC-2 an edgy DAC.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


  I must say I totally agree with WarriorAnt here.
   
  I received the Audio-gd NFB-7 3 days ago and even straight out of the box it was never edgy or bright. This did surprise me given all that I had read about the Sabre chip especially before any burn-in. It seems, just like Kingwa states, very balanced and even sound and I am not even running it balanced yet as I am waiting for my balanced cables to arrive.
  So please don't judge all Sabre DAC's the same.


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





sillysally said:


> Yes I have heard folks that have the WA5LE say the same thing using the HE6's.
> 
> Granted nobody that I know of uses the same tubes in there WA5LE as I do, but with both my WA5LE and Liquid Fire amps I find by using the high imp jack that there is a loss in detail/background. Yes by using the high imp jack the sound is a little louder  but the loss in detail is fairly big, and knowing what I am missing that loss would drive me nuts.Its for that reason why I think the WA22 is a little under powered for the LCD2 or the HE6's.
> 
> I should add that with both my WA5LE and Liquid Fire amps, volume is not a problem using the low imp jack.


 

 I can confirm the WA22 has plenty of power needed for the LCD-2s. I can hear zero loss in details through either high or low output impedance settings, but I wouldn't recommend it for the HE-6s.
   
  I'm not sure if you have the LCD-2s on hand, but they are quite a bit more efficient than the HE-6s and can actually sound quite good with even 500mW, though they do respond to more power in the 1-2W area....after that I don't hear much. The HE-6s are quite a bit more power hungry.


----------



## Windsor

I'm really enjoying the LCD-2 with the Lavry DA10; that combo sounds crystal clear and really gets out of the music's way.


----------



## Argo Duck

Thanks for these responses. My 6BZ7's being the same as Alex's, I checked out a track Alex referred to in the Lyr tube-rolling thread: _Morph the cat (reprise)_. Only an iTunes download, but anyway compared the track on both Concerto and Lyr. Subject to doing a better job equalising the SPLs - I only did it by ear and after a while it was obvious _whichever amp was marginally louder_ at any given time was also the one that sounded "better" - both sounded surprisingly similar to my ears. There may be subtle differences but  on this one track I could find nothing to fault with either amp. Both sounded very, very good.
   
  Obviously I need to spend serious time reading through the tube-rolling thread - something I've avoided to this point!
   Quote:


> the RCA 6BZ7 is a fantastic tube for the price point.   I'm not sure which flavor of 6BZ7 Schiit is offering.  That tube is revealing a good percentage of what the Lyr can do, there's just a little more room for improvement.  IMHO of course, there's no way to quantify happiness in audio
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

  Quote:


> My 6BZ7's are GE from Schiit.
> Alex..


----------



## K3cT

Quote: 





buttsack said:


> I'm not a part of the audio community here in Australia so I have never heard of the PDX. The cost of living here in Australia is high so I would expect the PDX to be overpriced.
> 
> From all of the Reference 7 descriptions I've read that sounds like the kind of DAC I'm after. If I'm after the relaxed clear sound so would I not like the sound of the Wyred 4 Sound DAC2? Would I be better off waiting for a second hand Reference 7? I don't want to pay big $$$ for something I will want to upgrade. I haven't talked to anyone who has tried the LCD-2 + Peak/Volcano with the Wyred 4 Sound DAC2.


 


  Getting 2nd-hand items is really the way to work around here as most Head-Fi-ers tend to baby their gears. You save a lot of money and in case you don't like the DAC and have to sell it again, you won't lose much of the resale value.
   
  The Reference 7.1 also seems to be well-loved around here and honestly, at the price of $1200 - $1500 (assuming used price), you can do much worse. 
   
  Alternatively you may also want to try the Neko Audio D100 MK2. I haven't heard the MK2 but the MK1 also has that kind of relaxed and clear kind of sound. Unlike the Reference 7.1, the Neko is clearly a bit to the warm and rounded side of things which may or may not suit your preferences. 
   
  Quote: 





warriorant said:


> I beleive this blanket statement concerning the Sabre chip is a bit misleading particulalry when it comes the the Wyred4sound DAC-2.   The DAC-2 uses the Sabre chip and it is in no way edgy.  Actually there is nothing about the DAC-2 that I would call edgy.   As with any DAC it is the way a chip is implemented within a design and also dependent on the quality of the analog output stage.  The DAC-2 is superb in both these aspects.   There are numerous reviews on the DAC-2 and a number of users of the DAC-2 in these threads.  Not one of them has called the DAC-2 an edgy DAC.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


  Perhaps you're right but I have yet to hear a ESS9018 implementation that IS not edgy-sounding and I seriously doubt that the Wyred4Sound is going to sound markedly different from other similar designs. Besides, I've read reports from _the other site_ from people whom ears I trust that mention similar findings.


----------



## Buttsack

Quote: 





k3ct said:


> Getting 2nd-hand items is really the way to work around here as most Head-Fi-ers tend to baby their gears. You save a lot of money and in case you don't like the DAC and have to sell it again, you won't lose much of the resale value.
> 
> The Reference 7.1 also seems to be well-loved around here and honestly, at the price of $1200 - $1500 (assuming used price), you can do much worse.
> 
> ...


 


  I'm looking for some second hand gear now. I'm looking for a Ref 7.1 and a Perfectwave DAC. If I can't find a second hand one for a good price I'm just going to get the W4S DAC2.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





k3ct said:


> Perhaps you're right but I have yet to hear a ESS9018 implementation that IS not edgy-sounding and I seriously doubt that the Wyred4Sound is going to sound markedly different from other similar designs. Besides, I've read reports from _the other site_ from people whom ears I trust that mention similar findings.


 

 Your serious doubts are not listening experience or fact.  The Wyred4Sound DAC is implemented in an entirely different way than other ESS9018 chips.  You generalize and blanket your observations rendering them less useful and misleading.  I know at least half a dozen W4S DAC-2 owners in this forum, not one of them would call the DAC-2 edgy sounding.


----------



## Skylab

In anticipation of my upcoming review of the Schiit DAC, I have a loaner of the Lyr now.  And I must say, I am rather impressed.  It does a very good job with the LCD-2.


----------



## WNBC

Agree with your experience.  The DAC-2 doesn't sound edgy or harsh or aggressive to me.  Take it all with a grain of salt, I have limited experience with DACs - PS Audio DLIII (PCM1798DB chip), uDAC-2 (Sabre ESS-9022), HM-601 (TDA1543 chip).  The DAC-2 is the smoothest across the range in comparison to my previous DACs though the HM-601 may be a little bit more laid back and warmer without the same level of detail as DAC-2.  Midrange is excellent.  It's not a cold nor overly analytical.  The leading edge is not the focus of this DAC.  
   
  Quote: 





warriorant said:


> Your serious doubts are not listening experience or fact.  The Wyred4Sound DAC is implemented in an entirely different way than other ESS9018 chips.  You generalize and blanket your observations rendering them less useful and misleading.  I know at least half a dozen W4S DAC-2 owners in this forum, not one of them would call the DAC-2 edgy sounding.


----------



## WNBC

Good to hear!  Lyr has been my highest-end headphone amp so far.  Good to know that I'm not missing out too much before jumping into the higher end amps.
  
  Quote: 





skylab said:


> In anticipation of my upcoming review of the Schiit DAC, I have a loaner of the Lyr now.  And I must say, I am rather impressed.  It does a very good job with the LCD-2.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





sillysally said:


> Yes I have heard folks that have the WA5LE say the same thing using the HE6's.
> 
> Granted nobody that I know of uses the same tubes in there WA5LE as I do, but with both my WA5LE and Liquid Fire amps I find by using the high imp jack that there is a loss in detail/background. Yes by using the high imp jack the sound is a little louder  but the loss in detail is fairly big, and knowing what I am missing that loss would drive me nuts.Its for that reason why I think the WA22 is a little under powered for the LCD2 or the HE6's.
> 
> I should add that with both my WA5LE and Liquid Fire amps, volume is not a problem using the low imp jack.


 

 You keep asserting that the WA22 doesn't have adequate power for the LCD-2, and I keep refuting it. For the umpteenth time, the LCD-2 is a much more efficient headphone than the HE-6, or even the HE-500 (from what I have read as I haven't heard this "more efficient" HiFiMAN planar).
   
  While I agree with you regarding the WA22 and the HE-6, you have never heard the LCD-2 out of the WA22 and your suppositional logic (as opposed to deductive logic, which would have to be based on evidence and/or experience) is completely flawed in this instance.
   
  As I have said before, the LCD-2 is even more efficient out of the WA22 than the Sennheiser HD800 dynamic headphone.

  Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> *I can confirm the WA22 has plenty of power needed for the LCD-2s. I can hear zero loss in details through either high or low output impedance settings, but I wouldn't recommend it for the HE-6s.*
> 
> I'm not sure if you have the LCD-2s on hand, but they are quite a bit more efficient than the HE-6s and can actually sound quite good with even 500mW, though they do respond to more power in the 1-2W area....after that I don't hear much. The HE-6s are quite a bit more power hungry.


 

 From someone that also has the WA22>LCD-2 combo on hand, as well as the HE-6 with a more powerful speaker amp, I concur 100%.


----------



## Argo Duck

When and if (!) you're ready to do so, I would be very interested in your impressions of Lyr-LCD2 versus MiniTorii-LCD2 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  Quote: 





skylab said:


> In anticipation of my upcoming review of the Schiit DAC,* I have a loaner of the Lyr now.  And I must say, I am rather impressed.  It does a very good job with the LCD-2.*


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





skylab said:


> In anticipation of my upcoming review of the Schiit DAC, I have a loaner of the Lyr now.  And I must say, I am rather impressed.  It does a very good job with the LCD-2.


 

 Are you going to do an in depth impression of the Lyr with some recommended tubes?


----------



## Kremer930

Very interested in Skylabs impressions of the Lyr and Bifrost and hopefully of the other Schiit gear coming in the next 6 months. I really respect your opinions on audio gear.


----------



## keithw

edit: Oops meant to post this in the main LCD2 thread. Apologies


----------



## Skylab

Yes, I will get to a full Lyr review with some comparisons, but it will be a few weeks, probably.


----------



## Audiowood

Do you guys think the Phonitor goes well with [size=12.0pt]Audeze LCD-2 rev 2.  According to Jude Heafi Tv ep 9, he mention that that it sounded very good with his LCD-2 rev1 but there are people that say they sounded veil and muddy due to the diff  impedance but i am enchanted by its beauty. Its really the nicest looking amp I have ever seen + made in Germany. I also do not have a dac that have a XLR output, do you think an 1/8 headphone jack/XLR adapter will work? I will use either dacport or Solo dac for now to feed the phonitor. Can someone describe the sound a little of on the phonitor/LCd-2 combo. My budget is $5K for dac and amp combo.[/size]
   
  I love Lush, warm sound with good soundstage. I do not have any experience with tube amps but I do love my treble but not to the point of being harsh. I heard the phonitor sound exactly what I have describe with HD800 or ultrasone ed 9. What about LCD-2 ?
   
  Any help appreciated.
   
  [size=12pt]Thanks[/size]
  Audiowood


----------



## Asr

I had the Auditor (same amp as the Phonitor, just without the crossfeed and other functions) and found it to be a poor amp for the LCD-2. Also the electrical characteristics don't match very well between the Auditor/Phonitor and low-impedance headphones in general - it's a better amp for high-impedance headphones on paper.
   
  This post I wrote offers a little more on my Auditor experience: http://www.head-fi.org/t/511201/review-beyerdynamic-t1-vs-sennheiser-hd800/105#post_6985524


----------



## Duckman

I agree. My stock Auditor was a poor match for the LCD2.


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





skylab said:


> In anticipation of my upcoming review of the Schiit DAC, I have a loaner of the Lyr now.  And I must say, I am rather impressed.  *It does a very good job with the LCD-2.*


 

 Funny Rob, that's the combo I decided for tonight....I'm still loving it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   


  Quote: 





wnbc said:


> Good to hear!  Lyr has been my highest-end headphone amp so far.  Good to know that I'm not missing out too much before jumping into the higher end amps.


 


  While I prefer my WA22 with my LCD-2s, it's not far off from my Lyr.


----------



## Audiowood

Quote: 





asr said:


> I had the Auditor (same amp as the Phonitor, just without the crossfeed and other functions) and found it to be a poor amp for the LCD-2. Also the electrical characteristics don't match very well between the Auditor/Phonitor and low-impedance headphones in general - it's a better amp for high-impedance headphones on paper.
> 
> This post I wrote offers a little more on my Auditor experience: http://www.head-fi.org/t/511201/review-beyerdynamic-t1-vs-sennheiser-hd800/105#post_6985524


 
   
  Ok thank you very much Asr and Duckman. I will stay away from the Phonitor.


----------



## FinBenton

Could anyone suggest an amp within a price range of 300-500€ for these phones? Cant really affort to go higher when amp+phones combine.


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





finbenton said:


> Could anyone suggest an amp within a price range of 300-500€ for these phones? Cant really affort to go higher when amp+phones combine.


 


  Schiit Lyr. Best I've heard the LCD-2s on an amp under $800.


----------



## Duckman

FinBenton,
   
  You won't have to read far back to see the Schiit Lyr recommended to the hilt.
   
  Cheers!


----------



## FinBenton

Quote: 





duckman said:


> FinBenton,
> 
> You won't have to read far back to see the Schiit Lyr recommended to the hilt.
> 
> Cheers!


 
  Yeah but I think its gonna go over my budjet with taxes and shipment


----------



## Argo Duck

I nearly replied earlier re the Lyr, but wondered about your taxes...as you're in Europe (I presume), what about a 2nd hand Meier Concerto? I find it very transparent, detailed and neutral, and a very good match. Or there's Jan Meier's new amp the Classic but not 'til December and not yet priced. Or Burson HA160?
   
  That's me out of ideas!
   
  Quote: 





> Yeah but I think its gonna go over my budjet with taxes and shipment


----------



## wakeride74

Quote: 





duckman said:


> FinBenton,
> 
> You won't have to read far back to see the Schiit Lyr recommended to the hilt.
> 
> Cheers!


 


  Just search this thread for "Lyr" and see how many pages of results come back, that should say something. I was pretty content with the LCD-2 and Concerto though but you can really tell there is some good synergy between the Lyr and LCD-2. I'd like to hear some other tube amps to compare but I've been very impressed with what I've been hearing since getting mine a few days ago. I also just ordered some Lorenz '60s PCC88 Gray Shields to so what those will do but that is the blessing/curse of a tube amp. I also compared the Concerto and Burson side by side with the LCD-2 and some recabled D5000 I had at the time and preferred the Concerto. The Burson wasn't bad I just expected more from what I'd heard about it.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> Schiit Lyr. Best I've heard the LCD-2s on an amp under $800.


 


  Lyr or WA2 for theLCD-2?


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> Lyr or WA2 for theLCD-2?


 


 Between the Lyr or WA2 for the LCD-2s, I'd take the Lyr. For the T1s or HD800s, I'd go with the WA2.


----------



## WarriorAnt

What tubes with the Lyr?


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> What tubes with the Lyr?


 

 Depends on the headphone. With my LCD-2s I really like Sylvania 6BZ7 at the moment.


----------



## sysfail

Has anyone tried the LCD-2's with the Cavalli CTH hybrid amp? I know they power the Thunderpants wonderfully, and I'm wondering if they'd do the same for the LCD-2's.


----------



## Duckman

I used to own the CTH, and IMO it was not a good match for the LCD2. I don't remember the specific deficiencies, but clearly remember my impression: bleh!
   
  Loved the CTH wth the K701 though!


----------



## sysfail

Quote: 





duckman said:


> I used to own the CTH, and IMO it was not a good match for the LCD2. I don't remember the specific deficiencies, but clearly remember my impression: bleh!
> 
> Loved the CTH wth the K701 though!


 

 That sucks. I was hoping the CTH would work well with both the LCD2 and Thunderpants so I can just get that to use on both of them. I already have an Audio-gd NFB-12. How would that work on the LCD2?


----------



## Br777

i have tried two portable amps with my LCD-2
  rxmkII - did not do well with them in my opinion
  SR71B (my current amp) in balanced out mode.. AWESOME!


----------



## wht

br777 said:


> i have tried two portable amps with my LCD-2
> rxmkII - did not do well with them in my opinion
> *SR71B (my current amp) in balanced out mode.. AWESOME!*




i find this combination to be very good too.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote: 





br777 said:


> i have tried two portable amps with my LCD-2
> rxmkII - did not do well with them in my opinion
> SR71B (my current amp) in balanced out mode.. AWESOME!


 

 I will agree that the balanced SR-71b is a bit better with LCD-2 than the Rx Mk2.  The amps were across the room from each other, so I couldn't do side by side comparisons, but I do recall thinking at the time that the balanced SR-71b/Silver Dragon was the best portable rig I heard with the LCD-2.  But I didn't think that the Rx Mk2 at RMAF was too bad with the LCD-2.
   
  Most of my own portable amps don't sound so good with the LCD-2, except my SR-71b in balanced mode which is fantastic (silver dragon protector cable), and my Practical Devices XM5 which has fairly good synergy but not nearly as good as the balanced SR-71b.  The XM5 sounds better with LCD-2 than the SR-71b in single ended mode, or the 3MOVE, D4 and D10, or Pico Slim.  If I had to guess, the Rx Mk2 might have been on a similar level to my XM5 which is not as good as the SR-71b.


----------



## SHAHZADA123

The Colorfly C4 Portable player drives the LCD-2 with a lot of authority IMO.
   
  At the moment I'm enjoying this setup : Denon 250SE Stereo Amp>>Speaker Cables>>APPV headphone adapter>>LCD-2.  
  Slightly on the darker side but HUGE soundstage & great bass impact compared to my Schiit Lyr.


----------



## sachu

Quote: 





duckman said:


> I used to own the CTH, and IMO it was not a good match for the LCD2. I don't remember the specific deficiencies, but clearly remember my impression: bleh!
> 
> Loved the CTH wth the K701 though!


 


  depends on the tube you run...The CTH is a lot like the stackeer..its sound signature is defined by the tube that you use.


----------



## BrainFood

Quote: 





headphoneaddict said:


> I will agree that the balanced SR-71b is a bit better with LCD-2 than the Rx Mk2.


 

 Any idea how it compares to the Stepdance?


----------



## Br777

Quote: 





brainfood said:


> Any idea how it compares to the Stepdance?


 

 skylab does a great comparison of stepdance, sr71b, and L3 here...
   
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/214588/review-portable-amp-roundup-56-portable-amps-reviewed-and-compared-final-update-12-20-10-added-rsa-sr-71b/3090#post_7214061


----------



## BrainFood

thanks..


----------



## GMF2010

I'm a hair trigger away from ordering a Balancing Act with KR-PX4 tubes for my LCD-2... Someone talk me out of it before it's too late!


----------



## WNBC

Wrong place for talking you out of any high-end gear
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  I need to read thru this thread but is it safe to assume you think you'll get a little extra wow factor from Balancing Act over your already awesome B22.
  We're all drooling over that one you have an IC for in the amp for sale thread.  Looks killer.
  
  Quote: 





gmf2010 said:


> I'm a hair trigger away from ordering a Balancing Act with KR-PX4 tubes for my LCD-2... Someone talk me out of it before it's too late!


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





gmf2010 said:


> I'm a hair trigger away from ordering a Balancing Act with KR-PX4 tubes for my LCD-2... Someone talk me out of it before it's too late!


 


  JUMP! JUMP! JUMP!


----------



## GMF2010

This is true! I don't know what came over me! This place is murder on the checkbook.
   
  I am hoping for something extra special out of the Balancing Act, but I suppose we'll see soon enough.
   
  I like the idea of being able to roll drivers to find exactly what I'm looking for. With any luck, I'll be able to find something that has a touch more warmth, which is what I'm looking to achieve.
   
  Thanks! Kevin (ShinyFalcon) did a nice job putting the whole thing together. If I do sell it, it probably won't be for a few months, after I've had time to carefully compare the two amps.
  
  Quote: 





wnbc said:


> Wrong place for talking you out of any high-end gear
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

  
  It's too late! I already have a check made out to Craig, all ready to go for tomorrow. I hope I don't regret this... I ended up going with KR-PX4s and an upgraded Penny & Giles RF15 pot. Craig said this pot is 'every bit as good as the Alps RK50.'
  
  Quote: 





warriorant said:


> JUMP! JUMP! JUMP!


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





gmf2010 said:


> This is true! I don't know what came over me! This place is murder on the checkbook.
> 
> I am hoping for something extra special out of the Balancing Act, but I suppose we'll see soon enough.
> 
> ...


 

 We definitely need your comparison between the two amps once you get settled in.


----------



## Covenant

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> We definitely need your comparison between the two amps once you get settled in.


 

 x2. I've heard the LCD-2 rev2 balanced out of a Beta22, but have never had the chance to hear any Eddie Current amp. I hear only good things about them.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Anyone have experience with Svetlana 2 Tube amp?


----------



## MikeLa

Quote: 





gmf2010 said:


> This is true! I don't know what came over me! This place is murder on the checkbook.
> 
> I am hoping for something extra special out of the Balancing Act, but I suppose we'll see soon enough.
> 
> ...


 
  I've never heard the B22 or the Big Stax Rigs, but what I'm listening to right now sounds really good (Audio Research DAC8 --> Balancing Act --> LCD-2) - I think you'll like it.
   .... and I still haven't tried the PX4's yet...


----------



## Equus

Quote: 





gmf2010 said:


> This is true! I don't know what came over me! This place is murder on the checkbook.
> 
> I am hoping for something extra special out of the Balancing Act, but I suppose we'll see soon enough.
> 
> I like the idea of being able to roll drivers to find exactly what I'm looking for. With any luck, I'll be able to find something that has a touch more warmth, which is what I'm looking to achieve.


 

 You could ping Kingstyles about what tubes he uses in his Balancing Act rig.  He's put in a lot of time and energy into configuring his overall rig, so he may have some good advice on stuff you can look into.


----------



## Duckman

I would like to hear it, but get the feeling (from the review and from its power rating) that it might not better the V200.
   
   
  Quote: 





warriorant said:


> Anyone have experience with Svetlana 2 Tube amp?


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





duckman said:


> I would like to hear it, but get the feeling (from the review and from its power rating) that it might not better the V200.


 


  I'm in search of a $1K-1.5K tube amp to compliment my SS amp.


----------



## Covenant

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> I'm in search of a $1K-1.5K tube amp to compliment my SS amp.


 

 I haven't heard it, but check out the Donald North (DNA) Sonnet. Uncle Erik mentioned that it's the only tube amp he likes around the $1k mark.
   
  An amp I *have* heard (and owned) is the WA6SE, which was excellent with the HD600 and HD800. I didn't get a chance to try it with the LCD-2 though unfortunately.


----------



## kstaken

For the LCD-2 the Decware mini-torii is pretty solid on the upper end of that price range.
   
  Quote: 





warriorant said:


> I'm in search of a $1K-1.5K tube amp to compliment my SS amp.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





kstaken said:


> For the LCD-2 the Decware mini-torii is pretty solid on the upper end of that price range.


 
  I have my eye on the Mini Torii.  I like it for a small speaker amp also, and the lifetime warranty.  May be too many tubes for me though.  Not sure.
  I like the Woo WA2 and the Woo SE6.
  The Svetlana 2.
  The Lyr, and waiting to see what Schiit comes out with.
  
  The mentioned  (DNA) Sonnet might be on the list.  Has anyone heard it with the LCD's?


----------



## laocas

This is easy! I just auditioned the Audeze with the E.A.R. HP4 Valve Headphone Amplifier by Tim de Paravicini. Superb. The HP4 powered the phones sublimely and cleanly like no other headphone amp could do. The audeze will never be neutral, ultra detailed cans for the recording enthusiast. Instead, they are as emotional and luxurious as they come. They are a thrill ride at Six Flags on your head. The HP4 will yield maximum control but not dry them out. The HP4 will make sense of their rather splashy output and focus their imaging as good as they will get. The HP 4 was designed for the perfectionist with no discernable flaws...either sonic or ergonomics. Tube rolling is a joy and you can maximize to your taste and to your cans. The HP4 / Audeze combo is special and spectacular. If this is your choice of cans, look no further than the HP4. If not, then you might really hear what the HP4 can do with real sounding cans that are neutral and highly detailed...


----------



## Argo Duck

WA I ordered the MiniTorii's brother, the Taboo (with VCaps) a week ago. I imagine I have another 5 weeks or so wait with shipping to New Zealand factored in. I'll certainly post impressions if you're still deciding at that time (or even if you're not 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). Taboo has a manageable 4 tubes and the same output power as the Lyr. Like the MT, it will drive speakers too. It does apparently need 3-4V input for best dynamics (my MiniMax DAC does 3V which should suffice). You can order/install a higher gain driver tube option in lieu of a pre-amp if necessary, although based on the Taboo thread the standard tube could be fine.


----------



## Radio_head

Quote: 





covenant said:


> I haven't heard it, but check out the Donald North (DNA) Sonnet. Uncle Erik mentioned that it's the only tube amp he likes around the $1k mark.
> 
> An amp I *have* heard (and owned) is the WA6SE, which was excellent with the HD600 and HD800. I didn't get a chance to try it with the LCD-2 though unfortunately.


 
  From my recollection the DNA was recommended for the HD800, which it pairs well with.  I have heard people (and possibly Donald North himself) say that it does _not_ pair well with the LCD-2s.


----------



## olor1n

Quote: Red Wine Audio


> What happens when you take an Isabellina HPA LFP-V Edition, remove Isabellina dac, and put it in a smaller (10" x 6" x 3") enclosure - offered with our single-ended or new balanced headphone output stage? 12Vdc output option for Wadia iTransports, Pure i20s, etc.? Did I mention at a MUCH LOWER PRICE - with all the LiFePO4 battery and LFP-V tube stage goodness? Customers have been asking for this for a long time, and next month, it will happen!


 
   
  Is this thing worth anticipating?


----------



## Skylab

I have one on loan for review, should start to have some comments by early next week.


----------



## olor1n

Thanks Skylab. Just in time for the return of my rev.2. Hope this amp's the one.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





olor1n said:


> Is this thing worth anticipating?


 
   

  Have they mentioned a price ?


----------



## SHAHZADA123

Has anyone tried the Cary SLI-80 Signature Integrated with the LCD-2s.
  There's a used one available locally and therefore any inputs would be welcome.
   
  Existing inventory for your reference :
   
  Headphones : LCD-2 r1/HD800/PS1000/GS1000i/RS1i
  Amps : Woo WA22/ Schiit Lyr/ Headroom Ultra/ Denon PMA 250SE
  Source/DACs : Olive 6HD Music server/MHDT Havana Balanced/ Cambridge 840 CDP
   
  (Headphones in the near future : HE-6, LA 7000, Thunderpants.)
  Thanks in advance


----------



## olor1n

@ WA, I haven't seen a price quoted. Anyone know how much juice the Isabellina HPA LFP-V Edition pumps into the LCD-2?


----------



## Vinnie R.

Quote: 





olor1n said:


> @ WA, I haven't seen a price quoted. Anyone know how much juice the Isabellina HPA LFP-V Edition pumps into the LCD-2?


 


  Hi olor1n,
   
  To avoid confusion:
   
  Skylab is reviewing the Audeze Edition Headphone amp/dac combo listed here:
   
  http://redwineaudio.com/components/audeze_edition
   
  Steve Guttenberg will also be reviewing this combo for innerfidelity.com next (followed by other reviewers) but Alex
  of Audeze and I wanted to give first dibs to Skylab, as he has a lot of experience with reviewing so many dacs and amps,
  and knows the LCD-2s very well.
   
  We also have the Isabella HPA, which can be configured with the same balanced output stage:
   
  http://redwineaudio.com/components/isabellina_hpa
   
  But what I posted on the Red Wine Audio Facebook page (that you linked to above) is a new product that is going to be out at the end of this month, called the Red Wine Audio "Corvina."
   
   
  The "Corvina" headphone amp is essentially the Isabellina HPA LFP-V Edition, but *without* the dac or remote option for the volume control.  The enclosure is also smaller (10" x 6" x 3.5" instead of 12" x 9" x 3.5").   It will have two analog inputs.
   
  Pricing will be $1000 (single-ended output), $1500 (balanced output), and add $100 for the 12Vdc output jack to power other components.
   
  Like the Audeze Edition and Isabellina HPA, the Corvina will use the same internal 25.6V LiFePO4 battery pack, our Tube stage, SMART board, and even the same singled ended stage (or Balanced output stage as an option).
  
  http://redwineaudio.com/components/#tube_stage
   
  The discrete, balanced output stage (as used in the Audeze Edition, and Isabellina HPA when ordered with the balanced output) has a 4-pin XLR output jack (Neutrik, gold pins) and delivers a clean 5Wrms into 32-ohm (10Wrms into 16-ohm).  
   
  Feel free to email me if you have any questions, as I don't check up on this long (but awesome) LCD-2 thread on headfi that often.
   
  Happy listening,
   
  Vinnie
   
  PS: For September (which would be a pre-order period for the Corvina), we will be posting details on how to get 10% off any Red Wine Audio product.  This will already apply for Red Wine Audio customers, and for new customers who join our facebook page and/or email list.  Again, email me with questions (not headfi PM) and I'll be happy to answer your questions.


----------



## Radio_head

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> Have they mentioned a price ?


 


  $3950 without the Headphones, $4900 with.


----------



## olor1n

Thanks for the details Vinnie. The Corvina looks the goods. When do you expect to ship?


----------



## Vinnie R.

Quote: 





olor1n said:


> Thanks for the details Vinnie. The Corvina looks the goods. When do you expect to ship?


 
   
  All,
   
  The Audeze Edition Systems are now shipping (yes, we finally have the custom travel cases in stock!).
   
  The Isabellina HPA (singled-ended or balanced versions) are now shipping.
   
   
  Hi olor1n,
   
  The Corvina should being to ship at the end of this month.  We'll post more about pre-ordering on our forum and Facebook page soon.
   
  Best regards,
   
  Vinnie


----------



## WarriorAnt

Will the Corvina have balanced inputs?


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





argo duck said:


> WA I ordered the MiniTorii's brother, the Taboo (with VCaps) a week ago. I imagine I have another 5 weeks or so wait with shipping to New Zealand factored in. I'll certainly post impressions if you're still deciding at that time (or even if you're not
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


  I can't wait for you to get the Taboo with those juicy Vcaps and report back!


----------



## nigeljames

Quote: 





argo duck said:


> WA I ordered the MiniTorii's brother, the Taboo (with VCaps) a week ago. I imagine I have another 5 weeks or so wait with shipping to New Zealand factored in. I'll certainly post impressions if you're still deciding at that time (or even if you're not
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


  Yes I am also looking forward to your opinions. I was very close to ordering the Taboo with vCaps myself a few months ago. Its still on my possibility list.
  Are you sure it delivers the same power as the Lyr into 50 ohms?


----------



## Vinnie R.

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> Will the Corvina have balanced inputs?


 


  No - it will have two sets of single-ended (RCA) inputs.
   
  Best regards,
   
  Vinnie


----------



## Argo Duck

No not sure - only that it has the same overall 6W figure as Lyr, and is described as driving "PLANAR Head Phones between 4 and 60 ohms".  More pertinent, imo, is that reports do suggest it is - like the MiniTorii - an excellent LCD2 amp. Well, we shall see...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





> Yes I am also looking forward to your opinions. I was very close to ordering the Taboo with vCaps myself a few months ago. Its still on my possibility list.  *Are you sure it delivers the same power as the Lyr into 50 ohms?*


----------



## dyl1dyl

I'm currently using the Woo audio wa5 and the schiit lyr. They are both great amps, the woo having gorgeous mids with the lcd 2s and the lyr bringing great dynamic punch. Will probably be getting one of the upcoming Schiit Balanced Amps and Dac combos so will post impressions on those when I get them.


----------



## bcstyle

Hey guys
   
   Im at a bind right now and it'll be great if anyone could help me out. I have had the lcd2 r2 for about 2 weeks now and its been driven by my Lehmann audio BCL amp.
   The sound Im hearing is good as I like BCL but wasnt sure if I was getting the full benefit of lcd2 as I havent heard it with another amp. So Im very tempted to buy Schiit Lyr as its been getting great support in this looong forum (read nearly all) but not sure if it would be an upgrade to the BCL. Couldnt find many people with the lcd2 BCL/Lyr combo but
  if anyone is out there regarding this matter it'll be greatfull//


----------



## Nerolucido

Ok, don't laugh.
I've a Little Dot MKIII and I was wondering if any of you had tried it with the lcd 2s. It is currently driving a pair of HD600s and doing a great job with them. So, if I were to buy the lcd2, what should I expect from the LDIII? is there a good sinergy between them that makes up for the lack of power? At least, can I get a decent sound out of them before I save enough money to get a Lyr?


----------



## LiqTenExp

I had an MKIII for a little while.  It drove the LCD-2 to good fun listening levels but not to very loud levels.  They paired up "ok", definitely not the worst combo I've heard but not the best either.  They LD MKIII did better with my 250+ impedance dynamic headphones.


----------



## Nerolucido

Thanks for the input.
  Will keep the LD III for a while longer until I raise the funds for what seems to be the FOTM LCD-2s Amp, the Lyr.


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





nerolucido said:


> Thanks for the input.
> Will keep the LD III for a while longer until I raise the funds for what seems to be the FOTM LCD-2s Amp, the Lyr.


 

 FYI...the Lyr has been around since February.


----------



## Hero Kid

Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> FYI...the Lyr has been around since February.


 
   
  Chuckle.


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





hero kid said:


> Chuckle.


 

 This amp has impressed me for several months now driving both my orthos. Rob (Skylab) has just updated his Tube Amp Ranking thread and you'll see that it's highly well placed (and deservedly so IMO).


----------



## Hero Kid

Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> [...] you'll see that it's highly well placed (and deservedly so IMO).


 

 Indeed. I was not disagreeing with you, merely laughing at your statement (in agreement).


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> This amp has impressed me for several months now driving both my orthos. Rob (Skylab) has just updated his Tube Amp Ranking thread and you'll see that it's highly well placed (and deservedly so IMO).


 


  Oh the temptation!


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





hero kid said:


> Indeed. *I was not disagreeing with you*, merely laughing at your statement (in agreement).


 

 I know, I was just adding some more information for those who thought the Lyr was still FOTM.


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> I know, I was just adding some more information for those who thought the Lyr was still FOTM.


----------



## WarriorAnt

I had to look up FOTM. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  OK here in this thread for Amps for LCD's someone list the most popular tubes for the Lyr.   I'm interested but my head is swirling from the tube rolling thread for the Lyr and to make matters worse that thread includes all other headphones and is not specific to the LCD's.


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> I had to look up FOTM.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 To keep things simple, the GE and Sylvania 6BZ7s are amongst the best tubes I've heard with my LCD-2s and HE-6s. Darn good.....tube rolling doesn't all have to happen on one weekend. But with the stock GE 6BZ7s, you are starting off on a pretty good first step IMO.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> To keep things simple, the GE and Sylvania 6BZ7s are amongst the best tubes I've heard with my LCD-2s and HE-6s. Darn good.....tube rolling doesn't all have to happen on one weekend. But with the stock GE 6BZ7s, you are starting off on a pretty good first step IMO.


 

 Thanks.  I've seen a lot of chatter about  the Siemens tubes for the Lyr but being a tube novice  I lost track.


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> Thanks.  I've seen a lot of chatter about  the Siemens tubes for the Lyr but being a tube novice  I lost track.


 

 I've tried them too and they are great tubes, but pricey. I also really like the Mullard CV2492 and Genalex Gold Lion E88CC.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> I've tried them too and they are great tubes, but pricey. I also really like the Mullard CV2492 and Genalex Gold Lion E88CC.


 

 This is why I am shy and hesitant.  Are there big differences in performance parameters with these different tubes or is it all subtle variations?  I'm not too concerned about the price as long as it's optimal.


----------



## olor1n

WA, I use these sites to cross reference the recommendation of others:
   
Joe's Tube Lore
Brent Jessee Recording
Tubeworld
   
  A lot to wade through but you'll get a sense of where great value may be found (sourced elsewhere) like RCA branded Siemens, as well as the exotic tubes people sell their souls for.
   
  I've only heard a handful of tubes but my favourite at the moment is 70's Amperex A-frame Orange Globes. Quite balanced across the spectrum, but with weight and extension in the low end. It has the widest soundstage of the tubes I have on hand, but details may be a tad too forward for some. I initially thought imaging was fantastic with these tubes, but I now feel certain queues are exaggerated and while it doesn't degenerate into soup, the overall presentation is not as coherent as the Bugle Boys.
   
  The other tubes I like are 60's Amperex Bugle Boys. It shares the same signature as the Orange Globes, but the low end isn't as heavy, although I find it has more "air" and ambience, with vocals that isolate better and seem more natural to my ears. Soundstage isn't as wide, but it seems to extend deeper.


----------



## Hero Kid

I think you should audition the Lyr with the stock tubes before getting too worried about tube rolling. The first stock tubes they shipped with were far from optimal but without reading into it, I think the tubes they are currently offering are a lot more favorable.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





olor1n said:


> WA, I use these sites to cross reference the recommendation of others:
> 
> Joe's Tube Lore
> Brent Jessee Recording
> ...


 

 Thanks, I'l give the all a read.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





hero kid said:


> I think you should audition the Lyr with the stock tubes before getting too worried about tube rolling. The first stock tubes they shipped with were far from optimal but without reading into it, I think the tubes they are currently offering are a lot more favorable.


 


  I think it was original stock tube period that I stopped reading the rolling thread on a post to post basis so that's good to hear.


----------



## WarriorAnt

I know I've babbled on about getting a tube amp before but I'm slow to choose.
   
  so far here are my considerations.
   
  Lyr
  Woo WA2
  Woo WA SE6
  Analog Design Labs Svetlana 2
  Mini Torii
   
  Red Wines's Corvina is intriguing.  
   
  I'm only going to be getting one tube amp to compliment the Solid stat side of my rig so...
   
  With the Lyr I'm more confused than with the other amps.  All I read about is the power it has but never seem to read anything about it's other abilities.  I'm wondering if it's more brute force than finesse.
   
  The WA2 is supposed to have that classic tube sound but of high quality reproduction.  More smooth than finely detailed
   
  The WA SE 6   is supposed to have a more detailed presentation than the WA2.  Both have been said to have a good soundstage, with the 6SE having more dynamic control.
   
  Analog Design Labs Svetlana 2, is not yet available in this r, hails from South Korea, comes from a reputable high end company, was recently reviewed here on Head -fi.   Is intriguing.
   
  The Corvina ha yet to be heard but might be worth the wait.  Not sure if the balanced option will be superior to the SE and would have to wait for a real review to at least shed some light on wether the SE and Balanced options sound the same or if one of superior to the other.
   
  Then there is the Mini Torii.  So intriguing because it can also power small speakers but is a forest of tubes.
   
   
  Of course my descriptions are more like questions about thee amps because I haven't heard any of them and have to go by the large amount of posts I've read....


----------



## olor1n

I'm waiting on the Corvina as well. I'm considering going balanced but I don't quite understand the lack of balanced inputs for it. I get that with a balanced amp you get "moar power", but isn't a balanced source required to get the most from it?


----------



## OzarkTom

RWA Corina would be my first pick. No more AC power, hooray! That will give it the advantage over all the others.
   
  The Taboo sure looks neat though.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





olor1n said:


> I'm waiting on the Corvina as well. I'm considering going balanced but I don't quite understand the lack of balanced inputs for it. I get that with a balanced amp you get "moar power", but isn't a balanced source required to get the most from it?


 


  I'd rather see a balanced in and balanced out for the Corvina also.  Then I could go balanced out of my DAC-2 in it.
   
   
  I've never been one to prefer that piece of gear look a certain way.    Usually I get something , plug it in and only look at it to turn the knob, maybe. But I find myself wanting the tube amp look nice.  So far the Woo's look the nicest.  Although the Mini Torii with it's forest of tubes sure looks tube impressive.


----------



## dyl1dyl

One more recommendation for the Meier concerto and stagedac pair, though I'm currently using a lyr and woo wa5.


----------



## Nerolucido

Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> FYI...the Lyr has been around since February.


 
  I know. 
  For some reason, I can still sense the hype about the Schiit line up. 
  Now, even the endorsement from Skylab. I'll be able to afford a tube amp that ranked among the best for my incoming Lcd-2. 
  Isn't this too good to be true?


----------



## Skylab

The Lyr is more than brute force.  This is what has impressed me.  Nicely nuanced and detailed, especially given its price.  It's very easy to recommend because it truly punches above its weight class, IMO.  If the LCD-2 were the only headphone to be considered, I would recommend it ahead of the WA6 for sure (I have never tried the 6SE).  Maybe even over the WA2 - hard to say for me, as I don't have it anymore.  But the Lyr really does a remarkably good job with the LCD-2.  I have been very impressed.  It's considerably better sounding than I recall the Valhalla being, and plenty of power to drive the LCD-2 well.  Make no mistake - power matters for the LCD-2.


----------



## uryens

Skylab, comparing Lyr to Meier Concerto..... Can you tell us about it ?


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





skylab said:


> The Lyr is more than brute force.  This is what has impressed me.  Nicely nuanced and detailed, especially given its price.  It's very easy to recommend because it truly punches above its weight class, IMO.  If the LCD-2 were the only headphone to be considered, I would recommend it ahead of the WA6 for sure (I have never tried the 6SE).  Maybe even over the WA2 - hard to say for me, as I don't have it anymore.  But the Lyr really does a remarkably good job with the LCD-2.  I have been very impressed.  It's considerably better sounding than I recall the Valhalla being, and plenty of power to drive the LCD-2 well.  Make no mistake - power matters for the LCD-2.


 
  Thanks, that's good to know. The price of the Lyr makes it very compelling.


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





uryens said:


> Skylab, comparing Lyr to Meier Concerto..... Can you tell us about it ?


 

 It's pretty tough, since I haven't had the Concerto in quite a while.  The Concerto has less power and is slightly brighter sounding, of that I am certain.  They are pretty different.  Plus since the Concerto is no longer available, I'm not sure it's the most instructive comparison...


----------



## uryens

I'm just wondering if I move from Concerto to Lyr would be an upgrade or a sidegrade....


----------



## elnero

Quote: 





skylab said:


> The Lyr is more than brute force...


 
   
  How do you find it in comparison to your vintage receivers with the LCD-2's?


----------



## Skylab

Roughly equal footing with some, slightly below others.


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





uryens said:


> Skylab, comparing Lyr to Meier Concerto..... Can you tell us about it ?


 


  Just my 2 cents...with my LCD-2s, I'd take the Lyr any day of the week over the Concerto (which I did like very much with the LCD-2s).


----------



## dyl1dyl

macedonianhero said:


> Just my 2 cents...with my LCD-2s, I'd take the Lyr any day of the week over the Concerto (which I did like very much with the LCD-2s).




I agree with you. I would recommend the concerto if you want to hear as much detail being pushed to you, but I prefer the lyr as they sound much more powerful, dynamic and "live"


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





dyl1dyl said:


> I agree with you. I would recommend the concerto if you want to hear as much detail being pushed to you, but I prefer the lyr as they sound much more powerful, dynamic and "live"


 


  I found more details with my Lyr/LCD-2 over my Concerto....could be the extra power into these orthos? For my T1s or HD800s, it was a toss up between the two amps. BTW, I no longer own my Concerto.


----------



## uryens

My thanx to both of you ! I didn't have the opportunity to listen to Lyr and it's nice to read comparisons about them...


----------



## m0gwai

Hey,
   
  I was wondering if anyone tried or own the Red Wine Audio Audez’e Edition Headphone System and if so what were your impressions?
   
  I tried looking on the forum but couldn't find a discussion topic, I just ordered one and I'm looking forward to receive it, I guess I will start a owner thread when it gets here next week but in the mean time would love some other members impressions


----------



## Skylab

I have one in for review, and in a few days of listening, my impressions so far are pretty favorable. That said, it's an expensive piece of kit, so it will get some pretty thorough scrutiny as the review process continues. Unquestionably good sounding though.


----------



## m0gwai

Yeah at that price it better be "good sounding", that being said:
   
  Quote: 





> The best your LCD-2's have ever sounded, or your money back!


 
   
  Is a bold statement so I guess if that's not the case I can just return it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 However I do know by experience RWA gear benefit a lot from burn-in so I guess you will need to put +200 hours on the beast before it sounds it's best.
   
  Let's wait and see, I'm looking forward to your review but so far is it really the best your LCD-2 sounded?


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





m0gwai said:


> Let's wait and see, I'm looking forward to your review but so far is it really the best your LCD-2 sounded?


 

 I'm definitely not ready to say that yet.  Just getting started listening to it.  And reviewing a product like this is tough because it includes a DAC, and can't be used without the built in DAC, so I have to get used to the sound if both source and amp.  I will end up sending the output of the DAC to the Leben so I can compare how the Leben sounds with the RWA AE DAC versus the AE's own amp.  This will take time.


----------



## martook

Quote: 





skylab said:


> I'm definitely not ready to say that yet.  Just getting started listening to it.  And reviewing a product like this is tough because it includes a DAC, and can't be used without the built in DAC, so I have to get used to the sound if both source and amp.  I will end up sending the output of the DAC to the Leben so I can compare how the Leben sounds with the RWA AE DAC versus the AE's own amp.  This will take time.


 
   
  Have you (or someone else here for that matter) heard the LCD2 with the older Leben CS300 version? Not quite as much power, and the internals are supposed to be not quite as good as in the CS300XS, but I guess it's no slouch anyway?
   
  Edit:
  Well, you apparently have one of those as well... have you written down a good comparison between the two in general, and with the LCD2 specifically? So I know if it's any idea to go looking for it 
   
  Difficult question perhaps, but how much would you consider the CS300 to be worth as a dedicated LCD2 amp? As in, if I find one, what would be a good price? Or should I just wait for a CS300XS?


----------



## roker

So are you guys not feeling the 160D and LCD2s?
   
  I know someone here lightly touched upon that, but I didn't know if it was a consensous or not.
   
  I don't have the LCD2s, but plan on buying a 160D here in the next couple of months.
   
  I'm not looking into tube or tube/hybrid amps.  I want to try solid state for once.


----------



## Skylab

martook said:


> Have you (or someone else here for that matter) heard the LCD2 with the older Leben CS300 version? Not quite as much power, and the internals are supposed to be not quite as good as in the CS300XS, but I guess it's no slouch anyway?
> 
> Edit:
> Well, you apparently have one of those as well... have you written down a good comparison between the two in general, and with the LCD2 specifically? So I know if it's any idea to go looking for it
> ...



According to Leben, for headphones the difference between the CS300 and CS300XS should be minimal to non existent, and in m own testing between the two units I found very little difference, and what difference was there could certainly just have been due to the different tubes I was using, not having two sets of identical tubes. I was convinced enough for myself that I sold the XS and kept the CS300, which gets used primarily with my Sony R10.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





skylab said:


> I'm definitely not ready to say that yet.  Just getting started listening to it.  And reviewing a product like this is tough because it includes a DAC, and can't be used without the built in DAC, so I have to get used to the sound if both source and amp.  I will end up sending the output of the DAC to the Leben so I can compare how the Leben sounds with the RWA AE DAC versus the AE's own amp.  This will take time.


 

 Not sure if you have this answer but I'll ask.  Is the Corvina to be the same unit but without the DAC?


----------



## Skylab

I don't know personally.


----------



## WarriorAnt

I've not seen much talk about the Asgard or the Valhalla paired up with the LCD so I'm going to assume they don't pair well with it.  Is this true?  Anyone try them out?


----------



## Skylab

Valhalla is a definite no.  Low powered OTL amp, really ideal only for high-efficiency, high impedance headphones, like 600 ohm Beyers.


----------



## Radio_head

Quote: 





roker said:


> So are you guys not feeling the 160D and LCD2s?
> 
> I know someone here lightly touched upon that, but I didn't know if it was a consensous or not.
> 
> ...


 

 Its a solid combo for the price.  Just not a FOTM anymore.  If you look at the Burson loaner thread you'll see some very favorable reviews.


----------



## grokit

My unofficial, highly unscientific and not too terribly thought out (I'm certain that I'm leaving a few amps out) LCD-2 headamp list:
   
   
   
   
   

*Top-tier*
   
  RSA Dark Star
  Apex Pinnacle
  Cavalli Liquid Fire
   
   
*Not to shabby:*
   
  RWA Audeze Edition
  Apex Peak/Volcano
  Leben 300XS
  Woo WA5
   
   
*Works for me:*
   
  Beta 22
  Woo WA22
  Headamp GS-X
  RSA Apache
  Eddie Current Balancing Act
   
   
*Nothing to sneeze at:*
   
  Woo WA6SE
  Cavalli Stacker
  PS Audio GCHA
  LD MKVI+
  V181/200
  Meier Concerto
  Eddie Current Zana Deux
  Burson HA160
  Blossom BLO-0299
  Schiit Lyr
   
   
   
  Please note that I've hardly heard any of these, leave your comments at the door, and don't let it hit you in the you know what on the way out


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Valhalla is a definite no.  Low powered OTL amp, really ideal only for high-efficiency, high impedance headphones, like 600 ohm Beyers.


 

 No wonder I haven't seen much about it here.  Almost ordered the Lyr today but the engine light went on in one of my vehicles and I know its just going to rake me over the coals at the dealership.


----------



## Argo Duck

Just to give a different opinion concerning the Concerto versus Lyr (GE 6BZ7), I happen to have both ATM, and find it hard to tell a difference in terms of power and dynamism. I must preface this by saying I have so far only A/B'd on three short selections of tracks. One 'selection' was Morph the cat (reprise); another was two tracks from Rodrigo y Gabriela. In terms of punch, bass slam etc I can so far discern no difference!
   
  These impressions required careful matching of levels. For a time, I almost stopped listening to Lyr as it seemed 'lifeless'.  Yes! But wait, read on.... Then the first time I listened to Rodrigo y Gabriela through the Concerto, I had the same impression of lack of dynamics. Switched to Lyr - aha, everything fell into place. At last I hear what everyone means about the need for 4W of power (@50 ohms). Ok, better switch back to Concerto just to make sure. Hmm, actually, this is not as loud as I just listened to through the Lyr. Better turn it up a bit. Oh...actually, this is sounding pretty good...
   
  Long story short, after a lot of back and forth to get levels matched, the differences I found were not slam or dynamics. Rather, with Concerto there's the sweeter treble Rob (Skylab) recalled, and a touch more air and space. With Lyr, there's a touch more thickness and body in the mids, especially noticeable with guitar. In another thread, where I compared the two amps with the Beyer T1 (and the guitar play was by Thomas Diethelm), these differences were more pronounced. I would go so far as to say the Lyr was slightly "darker" and hence the Concerto "brighter" and slightly "leaner". As an overall impression, the Concerto seemed by far the better match with the T1 - to put it picturesquely, everything was so well separated and effortlessly presented it was like a skillful arrangement of flowers. The best point scored by the Lyr was that its slightly more body and darker tonality of the guitar was attractive.
   
  A comment about level-matching: the Lyr is like the throttle of a very powerful engine. Just a touch on the volume dial significantly increases the Lyr's gain. In contrast, Jan almost deliberately I suspect engineers his volume control so that most of the dial's range is useful, and this makes more subtle control of level possible. This is especially so with the Concerto, which has a very useful led that flashes on/off for each single increment of level. IMO, this means one can get an "impression" of the Lyr being much, much more powerful compared to Concerto than it in fact is. BTW, there is no doubt it is more powerful, but just not as much 'more powerful' as it might seem for LCD2 purposes.
   
  I agree with MH - the Concerto/LCD2 pairing is a very good one. It should not be dismissed out of hand. The Lyr/LCD2 pairing is also terrific. It has these two advantages: tube-rolling to tailor the sound; it's still available new. There are differences in sound between the two, but ATM I find these subtle and have yet to find the time to define them more precisely. Forced to choose, I would be very happy with either amp if the LCD2 alone was on offer.
   
  Finally - in the interests of fair sampling - others (including MH and dyl1dyl obviously), heard differences that were not subtle and usually these came out in favor of the Lyr.
  Quote: 





> I agree with you. I would recommend the concerto if you want to hear as much detail being pushed to you, but I prefer the lyr as they sound much more powerful, dynamic and "live"


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





grokit said:


> My unofficial, highly unscientific and not too terribly thought out (I'm certain that I'm leaving a few amps out) LCD-2 headamp list:
> Please note that I've hardly heard any of these, leave your comments at the door, and don't let it hit you in the you know what on the way out.


 
   
  No vintage receivers or integrated vintage amps?


----------



## Argo Duck

Good start! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  I reckon the MiniTorii and Taboo should be in there judging from others' impressions...and Trafomatic Head One...
  
  Quote: 





grokit said:


> My unofficial, highly unscientific and not too terribly thought out (I'm certain that I'm leaving a few amps out) LCD-2 headamp list:


----------



## Skylab

My own experience with the LCD-2: and amps I have listened to them on:
   
*"Top Tier" (Outstanding):*
   
  Decware Mini-Torii
  Leben CS300/XS
  Peak Apex/Volcano
  RWA Audeze Edition (provisional early ranking, subject to change)
   
   
*"Not to shabby" (Excellent):*
   
  RSA Dark Star
  Trafomatic Experience Head-One
   
*"Works for me" (Very Good):*
   
  Apex Arete
  Schiit Lyr
  Woo WA22
  Woo WA2
   
   
   
*"Nothing to sneeze at" (Good):*
   
  Meier Concerto
  Woo WA6
   
   
*"Non-Starter"/Didn't work well:*
   
  Bottlehead Crack w/speedball
  RSA Stealth
  Schiit Valhalla
   
  If I didn't list it above, I haven't heard it.
   
  Also, there are lots of vintage amps/receivers that could be added onto that list, some at very high rankings


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





skylab said:


> My own experience with the LCD-2: and amps I have listened to them on:
> 
> *"Top Tier" (Outstanding):*
> 
> ...


 
  Add those vintage selections.  Wait, don't!  PM me with them instead so the price doesn't jump sky high on ebay...


----------



## oqvist

Many have recommended the Burson previously in this thread so wouldn´t believe it´s a terrible choice.. I can´t see how the LCD-2 can faulter on relatively neutral solid state gear as long as it have enough grunt 
   
  Had the LCD-2 Rev2 for some weeks and one thing I really appreciate with it is that my tube amp seldom get to dark and muddy with it
   
  Lately I have totally fallen in love with the C-2.1 though. It has the liquidness of the tube but more neutrality and more defined bass and treble as I hear it. Not quite the oomph in the bottom or meaty sound but the LCD-2 has plenty on it´s own. The C 2.1 has enough power to get that growl down low and soundstage and it does punch when called for.
   
  Best bang for buck dedicated headphone amp I found for the LCD-2 so far. Fully competible with the Head One and Goldpoint Headphone Pro for the Rev 2. I forget to turn on my receiver all the time which shows on the electricity bill


----------



## sachu

Rob, be careful about recommending that people use headphones with vintage receivers and amplifiers.
   
  especially ones that haven't been looked over by a technician. The DC offset from some of these vintage beauties can spell death knell for headphones.
   
  Don't think crying about a blown driver to the manufacturer will do one much good after that.
   
  If you buy a vintage receiver or amp, be sure to have it looked over by a tech so your bargain can truly be a bargain and not a PITA.


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





sachu said:


> Rob, be careful about recommending that people use headphones with vintage receivers and amplifiers.


 
   
  Well, it's far too late for that...I have, do, and will continue to.  That said...
   
  Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *sachu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> especially ones that haven't been looked over by a technician. The DC offset from some of these vintage beauties can spell death knell for headphones.
> 
> If you buy a vintage receiver or amp, be sure to have it looked over by a tech so your bargain can truly be a bargain and not a PITA.


 

 Always a good idea.  If you have a multimeter, you can check DC offset yourself.  I do.  But either buying vintage gear that has already been serviced, or taking it to get serviced if you are buying from garage sales, is a good idea.


----------



## Argo Duck

WA, somewhere early in this thread Kevin (KWKarth) reported very good things about the Asgard/LCD2. Try Search This Thread.
   
  It's just not a combo that many tried I suspect. Possibly because pretty soon after everyone heard about the forthcoming Lyr!


----------



## roker

I thnk I'll stick with aiming to buy the Burson 160D for right now, but thanks.  I made some adjustments to that list.

  
  Quote: 





grokit said:


> My unofficial, highly unscientific and not too terribly thought out (I'm certain that I'm leaving a few amps out) LCD-2 headamp list:


 
   

*REALY F'N EXPENSIVE*
  RSA Dark Star
  Apex Pinnacle
  Cavalli Liquid Fire
   
   
*F"IN EXPENSIVE*
   
  RWA Audeze Edition
  Apex Peak/Volcano
  Leben 300XS
  Woo WA5
   
   
*Expensive*
   
  Beta 22
  Woo WA22
  Headamp GS-X
  RSA Apache
  Eddie Current Balancing Act
   
   
*You might be able to afford this:*
   
  Woo WA6SE
  Cavalli Stacker
  PS Audio GCHA
  LD MKVI+
  V181/200
  Meier Concerto
  Eddie Current Zana Deux
  Burson HA160
  Blossom BLO-0299
  Schiit Lyr
   
   
   
  Please note that I didn't look up all of these, but most were ridiculous in price.
   
   
   
*Some adjustments were made.*


----------



## Argo Duck

LOL! An excellent - very practical and useful - list 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
  Quote: 





> I thnk I'll stick with aiming to buy the Burson 160D for right now, but thanks.  I made some adjustments to that list.
> 
> *REALY F'N EXPENSIVE <snip>*


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> No vintage receivers or integrated vintage amps?


 

 I don't follow them closely enough to try and rank them blindly like this (lol), my Kenwood integrated is on the fritz, etc. I use a balanced SS NFM amp with resistors and a tubed SE input stage for my HE-6/K1000 and decided it didn't really fit in here.
   
   
  Quote: 





skylab said:


> My own experience with the LCD-2: and amps I have listened to them on:
> 
> *"Top Tier" (Outstanding):*
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks for chiming in, actually having heard the amps is definitely a plus


----------



## Radio_head

Quote: 





roker said:


> I thnk I'll stick with aiming to buy the Burson 160D for right now, but thanks.  I made some adjustments to that list.


 
   

   
  BA is second most expensive after the pinnacle.  
  A DIY B22 is relatively cheap.


----------



## sachu

the B22 is good with the LCD-2 but no where near the top contenders, being the Liquid Fire and Balancing Act.


----------



## roker

Quote: 





radio_head said:


> *BA is second most expensive after the pinnacle.  *


 
   

   
  What on God's earth are you talking about?!?!?!  Unless You're talking about another BA (Burson Audio) or another Pinnacle.
   
   
   
*REALY F'N EXPENSIVE*

  RSA Dark Star $3000

*Apex Pinnacle  $10,000*

  Cavalli Liquid Fire $3250

   

   

*F"IN EXPENSIVE*

   

  RWA Audeze Edition $4000

  Apex Peak/Volcano $1400+

  Leben 300XS $3000+

  Woo WA5 $2500+

   

   

*Expensive*

   

  Beta 22 (varies, GREAT ones seem to start at 1500+)

  Woo WA22 $1900

  Headamp GS-X $3000

  RSA Apache  $3000

  Eddie Current Balancing Act $4000

   

   

*You might be able to afford this:*

   

  Woo WA6SE $1000+

  Cavalli Stacker (not sure ... $1000+ used)

  PS Audio GCHA $1000

  LD MKVI+ $700

  V181/200 $1000

  Meier Concerto $700+

  Eddie Current Zana Deux $2200+

*Burson HA160 $700 ($1250 for the 160D)*

  Blossom BLO-0299 $1450

  Schiit Lyr $450


----------



## Skylab

He meant Eddie Current Balancing Act


----------



## sachu

Quote: 





roker said:


> What on God's earth are you talking about?!?!?!  Unless You're talking about another BA (Burson Audio) or another Pinnacle.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  wow..this guy can make a list out of nothing..must be smart. welcome to my ignore bin


----------



## roker

Quote: 





sachu said:


> wow..this guy can make a list out of nothing..must be smart. welcome to my ignore bin


 
   
  I didn't make the list.  I decided to make a joke by changing the headers of gokit's list.  The price tags were something entirely different.

 I guess it stays true to head-fi'ers being way too serious.  It won't do you good putting me on your ignore bin.  I'll haunt your dreams.
   
   
 [size=medium]

  Quote: 





skylab said:


> He meant Eddie Current Balancing Act






 That makes sense now. Thanks.​[/size]


----------



## johnwmclean

Quote: 





sachu said:


> the B22 is good with the LCD-2 but no where near the top contenders, being the Liquid Fire and Balancing Act.


 

[size=12.0px]I can’t disagree as I haven’t heard either the Liquid Fire or Balancing Act.[/size]

[size=12.0px]From my experience the LCD-2’s with a dual mono σ22, balanced β22, SumR 120VA transformers (separate enclosure) and Dact attenuator through my system are the very best I’ve them, overall more preferable to an KGSS with omega 02’s system, well at least to my ears (not including classical of course as the omega excels at this).

 I personally regard β22 as the reference headphone amp of our times, technically there is nothing that threatens it, absolutely nothing.[/size]
   
  Amps come and go like wild flies around these parts, surely there must be reason the β22 is still as popular as ever after so many years.


----------



## Girls Generation

I know there is a portable amp thread for LCD2 but there's more traffic here so forgive me for my rudeness as I post my question here.

Does anyone know anything of the LCD2 paired with Triad Audio's new L3? I came across someone saying he did not prefer the [older] Lisa III with the LCD2, but Skylab's review made it sound like the L3 was the best out there followed by the Stepdance, then SR71B.

I'm just looking for any kind of information about the above two for now.



Thanks!


----------



## sachu

Quote: 





johnwmclean said:


> [size=12.0px]I can’t disagree as I haven’t heard either the Liquid Fire or Balancing Act.[/size]
> 
> [size=12.0px]From my experience the LCD-2’s with a dual mono σ22, balanced β22, SumR 120VA transformers (separate enclosure) and Dact attenuator through my system are the very best I’ve them, overall more preferable to an KGSS with omega 02’s system, well at least to my ears (not including classical of course as the omega excels at this).[/size]


 

 yup..nearly a similar build B22 that I heard. Don't know about the transformers though, but dual mono sigma 22 and balanced B22. Don't get me wrong, its a fine amp and am sure for some including yourself it might just be he best sound possible with the LCD-2. Testament to the fact that there are so many B22 out there and are being built rapidly for a good reason.


----------



## Covenant

Quote: 





johnwmclean said:


> [size=12.0px]I personally regard β22 as the reference headphone amp of our times, technically there is nothing that threatens it, absolutely nothing.[/size]


 

 Out of curiosity, how would the dynahi compare?


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





grokit said:


> I don't follow them closely enough to try and rank them blindly like this (lol), my Kenwood integrated is on the fritz, etc. I use a balanced SS NFM amp with resistors and a tubed SE input stage for my HE-6/K1000 and decided it didn't really fit in here.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for chiming in, actually having heard the amps is definitely a plus


 

 Vince The Decware Taboo and CSP=2 combo were the best I have heard and top  tier. IMO and of others who heard it agreed the lCD2 and decware were top notch.


----------



## GMF2010

Has anyone heard the Decware Zen TORII? It sure is a work of art...


----------



## grokit

^ WARNING: The above conflagration of audio tubes can distract visually from one's actual enjoyment of the music


----------



## johnwmclean

covenant said:


> Out of curiosity, how would the dynahi compare?




From all accounts from what I've read it compares very well. It would be a neck to neck battle and would probably depend on your choice of headphone and taste.


----------



## adydula

Upgraded my MSii USB dac to a MSii + USB dac.
  Lyr with EH6922's.
   
  The upgrade has made this very well priced amp, tubes and cans go to the next level.
   
  The major improvement is first class tonality....absolutley stunning...
   
  Sat thru Claptons Unplugged and it was freaking awesome....
   
  Played 30 or so favorites and had a hard time not  just listening to 20 seconds of a song...wound up listening to the whole song...over and over...from Regina Spektor, Cowboy Junkies, Allison Krauss, Rekooperation, Llyod Cole, Shawn Colvin etc..
   
  The Lyr with bit perfect and a great DAC is just plain outstanding...
   
  Alex


----------



## OzarkTom

There is a used one on Audiogon for 2K.
  
  Quote: 





gmf2010 said:


> Has anyone heard the Decware Zen TORII? It sure is a work of art...


----------



## Radio_head

From memory I don't think it has a headphone jack though.  Correct me if I'm wrong.


----------



## olor1n

Quote: 





gmf2010 said:


> Has anyone heard the Decware Zen TORII? It sure is a work of art...


 



 This is how I picture the Ark of the Covenant to look.


----------



## olor1n

Has anyone seen *this*?


----------



## Covenant

Quote: 





olor1n said:


> This is how I picture the Ark of the Covenant to look.


 

 My what?


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





gmf2010 said:


> Has anyone heard the Decware Zen TORII? It sure is a work of art...


 
   I had to make this my desktop picture.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





olor1n said:


> Has anyone seen *this*?


 

 Love those Xformers...


----------



## K3cT

Quote: 





girls generation said:


> I know there is a portable amp thread for LCD2 but there's more traffic here so forgive me for my rudeness as I post my question here.
> 
> Does anyone know anything of the LCD2 paired with Triad Audio's new L3? I came across someone saying he did not prefer the [older] Lisa III with the LCD2, but Skylab's review made it sound like the L3 was the best out there followed by the Stepdance, then SR71B.
> 
> ...


 

  
  Don't bother with portable amps for the LCD2. 
   
  The Lisa III can't even drive the older Hifiman HE5, I seriously doubt it will fare better with the LCD2.


----------



## grokit

The HE-5 is quite a bit harder to drive than the LCD-2.


----------



## Girls Generation

k3ct said:


> Don't bother with portable amps for the LCD2.
> 
> The Lisa III can't even drive the older Hifiman HE5, I seriously doubt it will fare better with the LCD2.




That's a pretty *bold* statement there.


----------



## Radio_head

Quote: 





k3ct said:


> Don't bother with portable amps for the LCD2.
> 
> The Lisa III can't even drive the older Hifiman HE5, I seriously doubt it will fare better with the LCD2.


 

  Because the new an amp is the harder it is to drive.


----------



## Elysian

What's a good sub-$500 option for the LCD-2?  I've only investigated the Schiit Lyr and Bottlehead Crack w/ Speedball.  People seem reasonably happy with the Lyr.  I've read criticism that the Bottlehead doesn't pair very well with the LCD-2.  This would be for someone who listens primarily to electronica, indie, progressive, and rock.
   
  I don't mind DIY or used, and have a preference for DIY.  Solid state, hybrid, or tube is fine.  Could I get some suggestions of tried-and-true options?  My knowledge of dynamic amps is mostly around $1-2k+ offerings, so I'm unsure what the landscape looks like around $500.
   
  Some amps I've seen but have no knowledge of (would search out a used model for anything $500+): Burson HA-160, PS Audio GCHA, and Woo 3 or 6.
   
  I'm only interested in full-size amps, preferably class A.
   
  Thanks for any help.


----------



## Skylab

WA6 used,Meier Concerto used, or Schiit Lyr.  The Crack is a no go for LCD-2.  And I have tried all of the aforementioned amps with the LCD-2.


----------



## adydula

Elysian,
   
  I have used the Schitt Asgard and Lyr.
  Also a Insight + Preamp with a great headphone amp.
  Also a SOHAii DIY Alex Cavalli Hybrid amp.
  Also a Onkyo 805 AVR.
   
  The Lyr is superlative with the LCD2's being driven with bit perfect stuff , flacs and a great DAC.
   
  Its close to what the state of the art is today for me at a very low cost point as well.
   
  All the best
  Alex


----------



## Girls Generation

skylab said:


> WA6 used,Meier Concerto used, or Schiit Lyr.  The Crack is a no go for LCD-2.  And I have tried all of the aforementioned amps with the LCD-2.




Any chance you will be trying a taste of the new Triad Audio L3?


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





girls generation said:


> Any chance you will be trying a taste of the new Triad Audio L3?


 


  http://www.head-fi.org/t/214588/review-portable-amp-roundup-56-portable-amps-reviewed-and-compared-final-update-12-20-10-added-rsa-sr-71b/2940#post_7116999


----------



## Girls Generation

skylab said:


> http://www.head-fi.org/t/214588/review-portable-amp-roundup-56-portable-amps-reviewed-and-compared-final-update-12-20-10-added-rsa-sr-71b/2940#post_7116999




WHOA. I think I overlooked that thinking it was the newer Lisa III ....... Sorry ~_~



> I am going to compare it to the RSA SR71B next week, and compare the two of them again to the Meier Stepdance, which in a kind of cool way will mean I will end my portable amp review monster with a face-off of true top-tier performers. Lucky me!




Did you get around to doing that comparison? I do try to use search but it brings me to either HUGE threads (and when I search inside of it, I get no real matching results) or very old threads from years ago which has nothing to do with the topic I'm searching on.... Or sale threads.... Maybe I need to go to school on how to use the search function ~_~


At the moment, I'm trying to look for anything that has to do with a comparison between the L3 or SR71B and Just Audio AHA-120. No one really does portable amp reviews anymore, and so far I've found one review that has no comparisons between the two amps I'm looking to compare the AHA-120 with.


----------



## Elysian

Thanks for the quick responses!  Looks like the Lyr is still the top contender, then.  I'm going to be buying the LCD-2, amp, and DAC for someone to get them into high-end audio, so I want to make sure I put the right system together, and will probably start a separate thread down the line asking about the DAC pairing.
   
  I'll read up more on the Meier Concerto and a used WA6, as I have good experience with Woo.


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





girls generation said:


> WHOA. I think I overlooked that thinking it was the newer Lisa III ....... Sorry ~_~
> 
> 
> 
> Did you get around to doing that comparison? I do try to use search but it brings me to either HUGE threads (and when I search inside of it, I get no real matching results) or very old threads from years ago which has nothing to do with the topic I'm searching on.... Or sale threads.... Maybe I need to go to school on how to use the search function ~_~


 
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/214588/review-portable-amp-roundup-56-portable-amps-reviewed-and-compared-final-update-12-20-10-added-rsa-sr-71b/3090#post_7214061


----------



## Girls Generation

skylab said:


> http://www.head-fi.org/t/214588/review-portable-amp-roundup-56-portable-amps-reviewed-and-compared-final-update-12-20-10-added-rsa-sr-71b/3090#post_7214061




Oh wow. I'm going to go smack my self with a frying pan.

Balanced makes a big difference huh.... Hmm..... I would've liked for you to try the 15volt stepdance but that's too late ... I'm still considering Just Audio AHA-120 but that comparison and your bold statement about SR71B in balanced mode has me persuaded 90%


----------



## grokit

iBasso makes a couple of balanced portable amps that could be worth checking out.


----------



## adydula

Elysian,
   
  I had a HRT MSii USB dac that was ok.
   
  I just upgraded to the HRT MSii + Asynch USB Dac...with the Lyr and LCD2's its a real AWESOME combination....
   
  With only three hours on the new dac everything I played on it was like all new again...its like being able to look inside the music.
   
  The big difference is the tonality of instruments and vocals and secondly the velvet dark silence...everything comes from.
   
  This dac is only $350 or so....HRT has an upgrade program where they gave me the retail price of the MSii and paid the difference for the MSii +.
   
  Awesome customer service and a wonderful DAC that does not break the bank..
   
  Good Luck in your choices there are sooo many!
   
  Alex


----------



## WarriorAnt

Anyone using  RSA The Dark Star?
   
  http://www.raysamuelsaudio.com/products/dark-star


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> Anyone using  RSA The Dark Star?
> 
> http://www.raysamuelsaudio.com/products/dark-star


 

 I'm pretty sure that Skylab had it as a loaner.


----------



## Anthony1

Skylab/Anybody?
   
  Im thinking about this baby with LCD2s.. where would it sit in the scale of things? 
   
  Edit: Decware Taboo


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> I'm pretty sure that Skylab had it as a loaner.


 

 Nice!


----------



## Skylab

macedonianhero said:


> I'm pretty sure that Skylab had it as a loaner.



Yup, and I posted a full review.

Was that Decware the Taboo? I've not heard that one, but Frank I has one and loves it. I have the Decware Mini Torii and love that with the LCD-2.


----------



## K3cT

Quote: 





radio_head said:


> Because the new an amp is the harder it is to drive.


 


   


  Quote: 





girls generation said:


> That's a pretty *bold* statement there.


 
   
   
  Well, you're not hearing what your LCD2 is capable of with these portable amplifiers in the first place. That's just like playing modern FPS at a "gaming" laptop where you have to adjust some graphical settings to get acceptable frame-rate.


----------



## Girls Generation

k3ct said:


> Well, you're not hearing what your LCD2 is capable of with these portable amplifiers in the first place. That's just like playing modern FPS at a "gaming" laptop where you have to adjust some graphical settings to get acceptable frame-rate.




That's true. However, I'm not able to get nor afford a desktop rig; I'm a student and am out and about most of the time, not to mention having many different homes, living in residence, then rooming, going back to parents' etc..  I'd rather get a desktop rig when I'm older and all settled down... (I'm 19 years old)

btw, my gaming laptop is pretty capable ._. m18x 2960xm 2gb580m 16gb1600ram raid0500gbssd


----------



## K3cT

That's really funny because considering your current portable system, you can probably get a desktop system at a similar price that's going to trounce it easily. Heck, even a low-impedance CEntrance DACMini is going to do a better job and it's hardly "desktop"-tier. Cheaper to boot too.


----------



## K3cT

Quote: 





elysian said:


> What's a good sub-$500 option for the LCD-2?  I've only investigated the Schiit Lyr and Bottlehead Crack w/ Speedball.  People seem reasonably happy with the Lyr.  I've read criticism that the Bottlehead doesn't pair very well with the LCD-2.  This would be for someone who listens primarily to electronica, indie, progressive, and rock.
> 
> I don't mind DIY or used, and have a preference for DIY.  Solid state, hybrid, or tube is fine.  Could I get some suggestions of tried-and-true options?  My knowledge of dynamic amps is mostly around $1-2k+ offerings, so I'm unsure what the landscape looks like around $500.
> 
> ...


 


  If you pursue the DIY route, I think it's possible to build an orthodynamic-friendly AMB M^3 with its Sigma11 power supply complement under $500. Use hi-current op-amps such as the OPA552, spec the transformer at minimum +/-15V and install beefier heatsinks. Should be good to go.


----------



## Girls Generation

k3ct said:


> That's really funny because considering your current portable system, you can probably get a desktop system at a similar price that's going to trounce it easily. Heck, even a low-impedance CEntrance DACMini is going to do a better job and it's hardly "desktop"-tier. Cheaper to boot too.




The thing is, I have the "upgrade" problem, or the pr oblem where I have to get the best, or somewhere along the lines of top tier, of whatever I get. (ie. newest releases of iDevices and highest storage available, an 800 dollar monitor S27A950, M3 with competition package, etc.)

If I transition into the desktop world, I will have an amazing desire and need to get the best, following Skylab's comparisons. 

And like I mentioned earlier, I'm on the move ALOT, and I'm still 19 years old so I have many places to explore, and different places I will live in for a while so IMHO it's not the best idea to purchase such expensive desktop set ups....


----------



## justie

this may sound a bit ambiguous but how does the lyr change the sound of the LCD2s? im using the rev.1s but im assuming the changes dont differ between revisions. I know the tubes used affect the sound but im not confident to delve into tube rolling yet so just the stock tubes available from schiit. Thanks guys


----------



## GMF2010

Quote: 





girls generation said:


> M3 with competition package


 

  
  Me, too


----------



## Argo Duck

Not sure what you would be comparing with, but most report better control over bass and treble. You could try 'search this thread' - there are many listening impressions here and in the lyr-tube-rolling thread.
   
  The Lyr's most often mentioned in the same breath as "6 watts RMS!" (4 into LCD2). This conceals the fact it's simply a very good amp as well - surprising finesse, nicely extended treble, and nice weight in the mids. I like it very much with my rev 1.
  See http://www.head-fi.org/t/402585/review-summary-a-ranking-of-32-tube-and-tube-hybrid-headphone-amps/420 for brief recent impressions from Rob, who ranks it in equal 6th place in this list.
   
  My impression is - of the stock options - most would recommend the GE6BZ7's. I agree.
  
  Quote: 





justie said:


> this may sound a bit ambiguous but how does the lyr change the sound of the LCD2s? im using the rev.1s but im assuming the changes dont differ between revisions. I know the tubes used affect the sound but im not confident to delve into tube rolling yet so just the stock tubes available from schiit. Thanks guys


----------



## Argo Duck

I have one on the way. More to the point, Frank I (see his review http://www.head-fi.org/t/535131/review-decware-taboo-an-amazing-achievment/60) and several others have reported the Taboo's a very good match with LCD2. 
  
  Quote: 





anthony1 said:


> Skylab/Anybody?
> 
> Im thinking about this baby with LCD2s.. where would it sit in the scale of things?
> 
> Edit: Decware Taboo


----------



## leesure

I heard the LCD-2's with the Decware at Frank I's, and can attest to the good match.  Very lush.
   
  For my LCD-2's (r1) I chose the Red Wine Audio Balanced Isabellina DAC/Amp.  Sounds exceptionally detailed and dynamic.


----------



## Bucko

What do you guys think is better for the rev2 model of the LCD-2's:

 Schitt Lyr
   
  or
   
  Buston HA-160?


----------



## dyl1dyl

Quote: 





bucko said:


> What do you guys think is better for the rev2 model of the LCD-2's:
> 
> Schitt Lyr
> 
> ...


 

 Schiit Lyr imo. Even with the stock 6bz7s its better to me, but it really trounces the burson (not that the burson is lousy) with the right tubes.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





argo duck said:


> I have one on the way. More to the point, Frank I (see his review http://www.head-fi.org/t/535131/review-decware-taboo-an-amazing-achievment/60) and several others have reported the Taboo's a very good match with LCD2.


 

 I wonder if the digital pre amp section of the W4S DAC-2 will give the Taboo that pre amp power some people combine the Taboo with...


----------



## Argo Duck

I'll let you know how it goes WA. I thought about a ZStage or CSP2+ as well, then decided to wait and see...


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





argo duck said:


> I'll let you know how it goes WA. I thought about a ZStage or CSP2+ as well, then decided to wait and see...


 


  You can also experiment using the Lyr as a preamp into the Taboo.   That should be interesting.


----------



## Argo Duck

I will! And the Opera has a preamp function too - it'll be a good contrast.


----------



## Radio_head

Quote: 





leesure said:


> For my LCD-2's (r1) I chose the Red Wine Audio Balanced Isabellina DAC/Amp.


 


  Correct me if I'm wrong but thats not the Isabellina hpa, its the Audez'e Edition.


----------



## leesure

Quote: 





radio_head said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong but thats not the Isabellina hpa, its the Audez'e Edition.


 
   
  The Balanced Isabellina DAC/HPA is the Audeze Edition.  All the Audeze badge means is that they used the LCD-2's to voice it and that Audeze and ALO agreed to sell it as a package.


----------



## Radio_head

and that they tacked 1.5K onto the price.
   
  Also, according to the site:
   

 Features a new balanced output stage, for optimal performance


----------



## leesure

Quote: 





radio_head said:


> and that they tacked 1.5K onto the price.


 
   
  Nope...go here: http://redwineaudio.com/components/isabellina_hpa
   
  The Isabellina HPA is $2500.  Add the balanced output stage and the high-res DAC and it's $3500...same as the 'Audeze Edition' which includes those as standard.


----------



## Elysian

Quote: 





k3ct said:


> If you pursue the DIY route, I think it's possible to build an orthodynamic-friendly AMB M^3 with its Sigma11 power supply complement under $500. Use hi-current op-amps such as the OPA552, spec the transformer at minimum +/-15V and install beefier heatsinks. Should be good to go.


 

 Thanks for the recommendation, will definitely read up on it.  I'm not familiar with the AMB M^3, but it sounds like a fun project.
   
  Not to get too far off-topic, but are the amp recommendations the same with the HE-500?  May need to go for the HE-500 over the LCD-2 due to comfort (the person I'd be buying it for usually wears glasses and the LCD-2 clamps way too hard for people who wear glasses, unless the clamping force can be substantially reduced without negatively affecting the sound).


----------



## grokit

My original rev.1 clamped hard enough to give me headaches, but my end of last year rev.1 doesn't bother me a bit with my glasses and I have pretty thick frames.


----------



## SHAHZADA123

Quote: 





girls generation said:


> Oh wow. I'm going to go smack my self with a frying pan.
> 
> Balanced makes a big difference huh.... Hmm..... I would've liked for you to try the 15volt stepdance but that's too late ... I'm still considering Just Audio AHA-120 but that comparison and your bold statement about SR71B in balanced mode has me persuaded 90%


 


 Do try out the Colorfly C4.
  IMO its very good with the LCD-2s & a fantastic all-in-one (source/dac/amp) solution. Oh and it looks great too.


----------



## Skylab

From what I have heard so far from the Lyr, if my main or only headphones were the LCD-2, and I didn't want to experiment with vintage gear, the Lyr is THE way to go for under $1K. It's performance with the LCD-2 is far better than I expected, which is to say that it is very, very good indeed. Frankly it makes spending several thousand dollars on one of the "super-amps" targeted at the LCD-2 look like a very questionable proposition.


----------



## adydula

Now...thats what I am 'talking' about....
   
  Sending bit perfect source in to the Lyr with the LCD2's is a 'marraige made in heaven'....
   
  Now back to the listening & music!
   
  Alex
   
  Using a matched pair of really high dollar EH 6922's...all of $30.


----------



## Bucko

Right i'm just about to purchase the LCD-2's and Schiit Lyr amp, as I mainly listen to music off my computer, and the Schiit doesn't have a built in DAC, should I buy the Asus Essence STX? I need a new soundcard for my PC anyway, and when Schiit bring out there DAC I can always upgrade. What do you guys think?


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





skylab said:


> From what I have heard so far from the Lyr, if my main or only headphones were the LCD-2, and I didn't want to experiment with vintage gear, the Lyr is THE way to go for under $1K. It's performance with the LCD-2 is far better than I expected, which is to say that it is very, very good indeed. Frankly it makes spending several thousand dollars on one of the "super-amps" targeted at the LCD-2 look like a very questionable proposition.


 


  Hmmm and just last night I got interested in the Apex/Volcano again.    But the Lyr is financially so prudent and I'll only be using the LCD's.  
   
  which tubes are you using on the Lyr?


----------



## ninjikiran

your not going to want that Asus STX as your source tbh if your already buying such expensive headphones.
   
  If your going Schiit you might as well check out that bifrost which should be out soon, and if not there are plenty of dacs within the $500 price range that would work wonders.


----------



## Skylab

warriorant said:


> Hmmm and just last night I got interested in the Apex/Volcano again.    But the Lyr is financially so prudent and I'll only be using the LCD's.
> 
> which tubes are you using on the Lyr?




NOS GE 6BZ7's, which sound great.


----------



## Kremer930

skylab said:


> From what I have heard so far from the Lyr, if my main or only headphones were the LCD-2, and I didn't want to experiment with vintage gear, the Lyr is THE way to go for under $1K. It's performance with the LCD-2 is far better than I expected, which is to say that it is very, very good indeed. Frankly it makes spending several thousand dollars on one of the "super-amps" targeted at the LCD-2 look like a very questionable proposition.





All for $449. Seeing praise like this from one of the most respected headfiers makes me only dream about what Jason and Mike at Schiit will deliver for $1k. I guess we will have a further insight when the intermediate DAC and amp are released within the next month or so. My guess is that the intermediate gear should ship before Christmas.


----------



## adydula

I use both the 6BZ7's and EH6922's..both are good, I have gone back and forth many times in the past few months...the EH6922's seem to be the ones I am listening to the most....
  The DAC I used was a el cheopo High Resolution Technologies Music Streamer ii...which I just upgraded to the Music Streamer ii +.
   
  Its a $350 investment and it was noticeably better than the MSii to me...one word 'Tonality'....
   
  The combination with the Lyr would make many us very happy...you get lost inside of the music 'all the time'...
   
  Like the Lyr it gives you a really decent sound and doesnt break the bank...
   
  Alex


----------



## leesure

Quote: 





elysian said:


> Thanks for the recommendation, will definitely read up on it.  I'm not familiar with the AMB M^3, but it sounds like a fun project.
> 
> Not to get too far off-topic, but are the amp recommendations the same with the HE-500?  May need to go for the HE-500 over the LCD-2 due to comfort (the person I'd be buying it for usually wears glasses and the LCD-2 clamps way too hard for people who wear glasses, unless the clamping force can be substantially reduced without negatively affecting the sound).


 


  FWIW, I wear glasses and have no issues with the comfort of the LCD-2's


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





skylab said:


> NOS GE 6BZ7's, which sound great.


 
  Are those the bottles that Schiit is offering now?


----------



## Skylab

warriorant said:


> Are those the bottles that Schiit is offering now?


Yes. Which is convenient. I liked them so much I haven't rolled anything else in as of yet, and after the review of the RWA AE is done, I will probably do that.


----------



## sling5s

Not just in terms of raw power, but is the Lyr a good match for LCD-2 because of it's bright sound signature?
  The Lyr to me is really a bright, edgy amp (complementing the darker LCD-2).  I have had the MAD EAR and WA6 and neither seems as bright to me.
  I think as tube amps goes, the Lyr is not as versatile as the WA6.


----------



## Skylab

I've not done a full review of the Lyr and have not tried it with a wide variety of headphones. But I will say for sure the WA6 is a more versatile amp. I would never use low impedance high sensitivity headphones with the Lyr.


----------



## Bucko

Quote: 





ninjikiran said:


> your not going to want that Asus STX as your source tbh if your already buying such expensive headphones.
> 
> If your going Schiit you might as well check out that bifrost which should be out soon, and if not there are plenty of dacs within the $500 price range that would work wonders.


 

 If I get the bifrost when its out, do I just connect that to the RCA on the STX? Will it bypass the DAC on the soundcard? Or do you plug it in the SPDIF...


----------



## leesure

You go Laptop USB or SPDIF to Bifrost to Amp to Cans


----------



## Bucko

Quote: 





leesure said:


> You go Laptop USB or SPDIF to Bifrost to Amp to Cans


 


  Excellent thank you. Is SPDIF better than USB, or is that a matter of opinion?


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





bucko said:


> Excellent thank you. Is SPDIF better than USB, or is that a matter of opinion?


 

 It's a matter of fact...SPDIF is better than USB.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> It's a matter of fact...SPDIF is better than USB.


 
  Toslink or Coaxial?


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> Toslink or Coaxial?


 

 SPDIF = Coaxial
  Toslink = Optical
   
  SPDIF > Toslink >>> USB (but less so with the W4S DAC-2's USB implementation).


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> SPDIF = Coaxial
> Toslink = Optical
> 
> SPDIF > Toslink >>> USB (but less so with the W4S DAC-2's USB implementation).


 
  I'm always confused about SPDIF because of this   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S/PDIF   "*S/PDIF* is a dgital audio interconnect used in consumer audio equipment over relatively short distances. The signal is transmitted over either a coaxial cable with RCA connectors or a fiber optic cable with TOSLINK connectors."    This is confusing because it implies that SPDIF is both coaxial and Toslink.
   
   I would always take Coaxial over Toslink and USB with the DAC-2 over Toslink.  I can't go Coaxial from my iMac to the DAC-2 so I go USB.


----------



## ninjikiran

I would go USB unless you get a studio sound card, they have better digital outputs than the STX.  The STX is limited much like the tenor chip, possibly even more so where the studio cards while similar in price(maybe cheaper) support all rates but have no real value for gaming especially if dolby is important.
   
  I had a Halide bridge, sold it and got an ESi Juli@ and to be completely honest I don;t think a difference exist or if it does its really really tiny.  Not like the difference between a poorly implemented USB vs Spdif.


----------



## SHAHZADA123

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Yes. Which is convenient. I liked them so much I haven't rolled anything else in as of yet, and after the review of the RWA AE is done, I will probably do that.


 
  The RWA AE review should be very interesting, especially since you've heard the Lyr as well.


----------



## tme110

My understanding is that there are different methods of spdif so it gets confusing.  So though you can call either spdif, toslink is always optical and people generally consider coax to be spdif.
   
  but yes, I concur.  My first choice would be COAX, then optical (though this sometimes gets touchy), then usb,  I don't use usb at all anymore.  My low-end dell with a generic sound card had an unadvertised coax connection on it.  USB gets better when it is asych and has galvanic isolation but I'm still good with coax.  Actually COAX with BNC connectors is the best.


----------



## WarriorAnt

I use the W4S DAC-2 and I asked them about which I should should use for 192 kHz transmission and they told me USB over TOSLINK and refereed me to their manual which states     "The DAC-2 can process signals up to 32 bits in length, and 200 kHz in sampling frequency through the coax digital inputs. Because of the limitations of Optical transmission, only 176.4kHz has proven to be reliable through the TOSLINK inputs. You will find that some optical inputs will operate at rates up to 192 kHz, but is not guaranteed. The USB input will process signals up to 24 bit in length, and sample rates up to 192 kHz."    
  It is an asynch DAC and the USB is very good.  I wish I could come out of the iMc coaxial but it does not provide such a connection.  I should get an optical cable and test what the transmision for the TOSLINK is.


----------



## grokit

The wiki article is correct, and so is MH. Spdif encompasses Toslink, coaxial and BNC. Toslink is the optical version that typically carries more jitter than the hardwired coax/bnc versions, but they are all spdif. USB can be better or worse than spdif depending upon the implementation.


----------



## leesure

Quote: 





shahzada123 said:


> The RWA AE review should be very interesting, especially since you've heard the Lyr as well.


 
  I have both as well...but I won't steal Skylab's thunder.  PM me if you'd care for my impressions.


----------



## sling5s

Generally coaxial is the best but it's all about implementation.  In some Dacs, I could not only hear a little difference with coaxial with the edge, but in some Dacs, it was night and day, the coaxial was so much better.  
  
  Quote: 





grokit said:


> The wiki article is correct, and so is MH. Spdif encompasses Toslink, coaxial and BNC. Toslink is the optical version that typically carries more jitter than the hardwired coax/bnc versions, but they are all spdif. USB can be better or worse than spdif depending upon the implementation.


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





leesure said:


> I have both as well...but I won't steal Skylab's thunder.  PM me if you'd care for my impressions.


 

 You should post your impressions!  The more the merrier!


----------



## adydula

I have gone back and forth with Coax and Toslink...real glass fibers vs plastic...etc..I could never hear any real world differences between coax and Toslink optical for SPIDF.
   
  The mechanical connection of a coax connector seems better to me....than the flimsy optical cables...
   
  As for USB better or worse than SPDIF...well the opinions rage on...you can pay megabucks for usb dacs with tubes!! and megabucks for SPDIF dacs etc...
   
  Try and buy and see for yourself in your system which is better....or not.
   
  I was surprised!
  Alex


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





grokit said:


> The wiki article is correct, and so is MH. Spdif encompasses Toslink, coaxial and BNC. Toslink is the optical version that typically carries more jitter than the hardwired coax/bnc versions, but they are all spdif. USB can be better or worse than spdif depending upon the implementation.


 

  
  Yes, it's been my hazey understanding that SPDIF encompasses both Toslink and Coaxial but since I only use USB I was never quite clear.  The confusion for me has been increased by people using SPDIF to mean just Coaxial and not include Toslink and for Toslink to be used as term separately from SPDIF.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





leesure said:


> I have both as well...but I won't steal Skylab's thunder.  PM me if you'd care for my impressions.


 
  Quote:


skylab said:


> You should post your impressions!  The more the merrier!


 
  Definitely if you have both you should also post something up, and then sell me your Lyr...


----------



## Bucko

Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> It's a matter of fact...SPDIF is better than USB.


 

 If I get the STX and have it connected to the SPDIF, can I have my "gaming" headphones connected the HP amp on the soundcard and switch between the two through the STX software, as I'll want to use Dolby headphone for games, or would this interfere with things?


----------



## leesure

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> Quote:
> Definitely if you have both you should also post something up, and then sell me your Lyr...


 

 I will........write a review.
   
  The Lyr is firmly ensconced in my Office system.


----------



## ninjikiran

after about 5 minutes of ear settling(small changes in sound that change the way you expect it to sound) and 20 minutes of tube warming  there is quite a bit more impact and clarity seemed to have improved slightly.
   
  It definitely sounds different, in a way that doesn't require an audible memory.  I mean when your expecting something else, and you get something different it is a bit of a shock to your ears.   Can't say its better yet, but my second first impression(after giving the tubes a bit of time to warm up) was definitely a positive one.
   
  Tbh, the sound signature from the D1(SS out), to the M-Stage to the Concerto did not change much even if there were other improvements.  But the signature from the Concerto to the Lyr was day and night.
   
  I didnt bother with the other tubes, just put the GE straight in.
   
  ---Stolen from LCD-2 Thread.
  Adding More...
   
  As a side benefit it seems to act well as a hand warmer when you change volume.


----------



## Argo Duck

Really interested in your further impressions ninji. I too thought impact was a big difference when I first listened to Lyr, although that changed when I went back and forth more and equalised levels more. That may just be me though!
   
  Just tried Michael Manring's 'The fire sermon' - about 10 listens Concerto, 10 Lyr (GE). There are certainly differences. I thought the Concerto did an excellent job with the initial leading edge on the first chord - very dynamic (probably the Concerto's black background helped here). I found a touch more definition and body to the strings from the Lyr - always one of its strong points IMO. Even though Concerto is detailed, Lyr articulated better the change in sound of the string as it decayed. Tonally, the Concerto is brighter and just a touch lighter.
   
  +1 on the hand warmer. Concerto is just not in the same league here 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Edit: FWIW these impressions with MiniMax DAC. All my previous impressions were with the StageDAC in place. I alternate DACs between headphone and speaker rigs every few weeks ATM


----------



## jackwess

Guys, how does the Lyr compare to the 160D when driving audeze?


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





jackwess said:


> Guys, how does the Lyr compare to the 160D when driving audeze?


 

 I preferred the HA160 very slightly with the LCD-2s over the Concerto (with the HD800s/T1, I preferred the Concerto). But I still prefer the Lyr over either of these solid state amps with the LCD-2s.


----------



## aurabullet

what do you guys think of the audio gd phoenix, 2ch b22, or the lyr? I currently have the lyr


----------



## olor1n

Just placed an order for the new *NFB-10SE (Second Edition)*.
   
  I was holding out for the mid tier balanced Schiit gear, but I couldn't resist the promo price for the Audio-GD. This thing pumps out close to 6W into 50ohm. Should be interesting to hear how it stacks up against the Lyr.


----------



## grokit

That looks like a heck of an amp, that could even keep up with the HE-6. Looking forward to your impressions
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Interesting, looking at their selection that they have given up on the Sabre chip altogether.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Looks like an excellent promo price.  DAC and Amp.  Very tempting.


----------



## olor1n

Listening to the LCD-2 out of my Fun's discrete amp section. This is the first time I've done this with the LCD-2, and I'm reminded of the Audio-GD's "house sound" of smoothness and transparency. It lacks the grunt of the Lyr, but everything is rendered here with crystal clarity and the utterly black background gives the sense that sound is originating from greater depths.
   
  If this is what the NFB-10SE is like but with more kick, then I fear the Lyr may have to go.


----------



## tkteo

Quote: 





olor1n said:


> Just placed an order for the new *NFB-10SE (Second Edition)*.


 
   
  Did you have to conduct the entire transaction (asking for price quote, confirming order, etc) using email?


----------



## oqvist

Quote: 





olor1n said:


> Listening to the LCD-2 out of my Fun's discrete amp section. This is the first time I've done this with the LCD-2, and I'm reminded of the Audio-GD's "house sound" of smoothness and transparency. It lacks the grunt of the Lyr, but everything is rendered here with crystal clarity and the utterly black background gives the sense that sound is originating from greater depths.
> 
> If this is what the NFB-10SE is like but with more kick, then I fear the Lyr may have to go.


 

 C-2.1 has quite a kick and it´s only 1W. This looks like an interesting option trying balanced. I suppose running in SE you get half the power which is still plenty of course


----------



## justie

this might have been asked before but between the Lyr and Burson HA-160D which one is better? or if anyone has already compared them, how do they compare?


----------



## m0gwai

this is discussed 5 posts above...


----------



## justie

im an idiot who cant read *facepalm* though im still hoping for a more detailed comparison between the 2 :x


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





justie said:


> im an idiot who cant read *facepalm* though im still hoping for a more detailed comparison between the 2 :x


 

 What does this mean?


----------



## zyth3x

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Yes. Which is convenient. I liked them so much I haven't rolled anything else in as of yet, and after the review of the RWA AE is done, I will probably do that.


 

 Any ETA on the RWA AE review? very much looking forward to it. A comparison with the WA22 would be great as I'm considering both amps and will most likely upgrade soon.
   
  To throw a few questions out there. I'm considering an Isabellina with the ProDAC and Balanced stage upgrades (which is basically the AE edition without the branding right?) but I'm not convinced the Balanced stage is worth the extra $500. Also, if I'm using my computer as my source does that lessen the need to balance?
   
  I'm also looking at the WA22/W4S-DAC2 combo but it's next to impossible to get a solid comparison and auditioning all this stuff is out of the question.
   
  The pricing is also pretty similar between the two.
   
  Isabellina with ProDAC/Balanced/Balanced cable for LCD-2 - $3700
  Isabellina with ProDAC but single ended - $3000
  WA22/W4S-DAC with balanced cables - $4000+
 WA22/W4S-DAC single ended - $3700
  I could even stick with my StageDAC and just get a WA22 which would be only $2050
   
  My current setup is in my sig and I wanted to get a warmer and less fatiguing sound and hopefully be done using all my free time on this forum piecing together peoples opinions like an audiophile da vinci code...
   
  Anyway, just dumping some thoughts on the table that I can hopefully get some input on. Big thanks to the people that get new gear then share their honest opinions, helps a lot.


----------



## olor1n

Quote: 





justie said:


> im an idiot who cant read *facepalm* though im still hoping for a more detailed comparison between the 2 :x


 


  Search the thread. Lyr vs Burson pops up every second page.


----------



## ninjikiran

I would go with the B22, not based on hearing it but a good b22 seems to be worth a pretty penny around here.  Not many people own them due to it being primarily a DIY amp.
   
  If your not satisfied you can sell it and go for the Lyr and use the difference to fund other audio endeavors like actual music. 
   
  In the battle Lyr($450) vs Concerto(~$700 amp), the lyr so far is quite the beast with the LCD-2 and I am enjoying the difference.  Only thing I miss is crossfeed which I used sometimes for some older games, sharp lefts and sharp rights grate on the ears after a while.  Kinda disappointed I didnt put down my cash on a Lyr in the beginning and give my $450 to Schiit, but on that note it makes me even more interested in their dacs now.


----------



## WNBC

*Skylab as Robert Langdon!*
   
  Quote: 





zyth3x said:


> My current setup is in my sig and I wanted to get a warmer and less fatiguing sound and hopefully be done using all my free time on this forum piecing together peoples opinions like an *audiophile da vinci code*...
> 
> Anyway, just dumping some thoughts on the table that I can hopefully get some input on. Big thanks to the people that get new gear then share their honest opinions, helps a lot.


----------



## K3cT

Quote: 





ninjikiran said:


> I would go with the B22, not based on hearing it but a good b22 seems to be worth a pretty penny around here.  Not many people own them due to it being primarily a DIY amp.
> 
> If your not satisfied you can sell it and go for the Lyr and use the difference to fund other audio endeavors like actual music.
> 
> In the battle Lyr($450) vs Concerto(~$700 amp), the lyr so far is quite the beast with the LCD-2 and I am enjoying the difference.  Only thing I miss is crossfeed which I used sometimes for some older games, sharp lefts and sharp rights grate on the ears after a while.  Kinda disappointed I didnt put down my cash on a Lyr in the beginning and give my $450 to Schiit, but on that note it makes me even more interested in their dacs now.


 

  
  Hearing the Beta22 for the first time takes some adjustment though because it totally doesn't have a color on its own and hence, it just merely serves as a bridge between your source to your headphones. It's something you learn to appreciate after spending some time with it. 
   
  Glad that you're enjoying the Lyr. Told ya that the Concerto is not doing the LCD2 justice.


----------



## justie

it means im an idiot because i didnt bother seartching the thread first :/
  
  Quote: 





warriorant said:


> What does this mean?


----------



## Skylab

zyth3x said:


> Any ETA on the RWA AE review? very much looking forward to it. A comparison with the WA22 would be great as I'm considering both amps and will most likely upgrade soon.


unfortunately it will be at least another week. This is a somewhat tricky review because the AE is a combo DAC - AMP with no analog input, and so I have to try to isolate the performance of the DAC section by using it with another amp and then switching between it and the AE, and then later I can focus on the amp section once I feel I really know what the DAC is doing.

Here is are two hints. One is the AE sounds excellent. Two is if you don't need a DAC, don't bother, and wait for RWA's amp only offering  You are paying for a DAC with the AE. It is a very, very good DAC, with some cool features, but that's a lot of what makes the AE cost what it does. If you love your current DAC, the AE isn't for you.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





justie said:


> it means im an idiot because i didnt bother seartching the thread first :/


 

 Take the time and read the thread from the start. It is long but will be very helpful.  Just remember to take notes as you go.  I didn't do that and had to read it twice....


----------



## rmilewsk

I posted this on woo audio thread but thought it might be better here.
   
  I have tried the LCD2's with the WA22 and both the sophia princess (woo upgrade tube) and the EML 5U4. I think the Sophia Princess sounds slightly better than the EML. The SP sounds more open compared to the EML which sounds slightly more veiled to me. The EML sounds a bit reticent to me compared to the SP. I also have the woo upgraded power tubes (7236) and upgraded driver tubes (shaguang treasure).
   
  That being said I will also say that I was not completely happy with the sound I was getting with any of these tube combinations and the LCD2's. Then I tried the violectric HPA V200. This is the best amp I have ever heard with the LCD2s. I've listened to the above WA22 and the burson HA160. The WA with any of the tube combinations sounds more liquid than the HPA especially in the midrange. However, the overall presentation of the music is much more coherent and the dynamics are just as good with the V200. There is a sense of movement and flow to the music through the HPA V200 that the other amplifiers can not match. The WA22 sounds broken to me compared to the V200. I don't mean broken as in a tube has a crack in it. I mean broken as in when listening to a song all of the parts don't sound like they are coming from the same performance. The midrange sounds too distinct from the bass and from the treble. The pieces are shown with a spotlight on them. The V200 plays the music as one organic whole. I am still shocked at the price of the V200 compared to how good it sounds.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Spread the V200 love....


----------



## theophile

When I bought my LCD-2(rev.2) I had never set a toe in the world of high-end headphones/headphone amps.I'd been into hi-fi for almost 35 years,but not 'phones.I took the time to read a lot of opinion.
   
  My initial interest was in the Sennheiser 800s, having read about them in the magazines. Upon more investigation I saw that there was quite a bit of divergence of opinion about whether the 800s were either too bright,bass light or both.Some argued that the 800s were unduly fussy about the headphone amp that they were used with.Finally I read a report by someone who had tried their 800s with the Violectric 200 and reported that the 800s now sounded distinctly better and that most of their objections about the phones were rectified.
   
  It was whilst researching the Violectric that I saw a mention of the Audeze.Much,much more research.Hmm the Audeze have caused a 'buzz' and the consensus appeared to be great sound,great bass,great midrange and a subdued treble.The tonal balance of the Audeze appeared to be the counterpoint to the Sennheiser 800s.Perversely the Violectric was being again reported as forming a beneficial partnership with the Audeze also.
   
  It's an unusual component which will improve products whose tonal balances differ.The Violectric now was looming as a highly interesting product. What really made me finalise my purchase of the LCD-2/V200 combination was the overall sense given that the LCDs sounded musically natural, and the impression I got that the V200 was musically involving.The above review and comparison just underlines the conclusion that I arrived at.
   
  I have no other frame of reference by which to make comparisons in this tier of the headphone/headphone amp hierarchy,I merely know that the combination is indeed musically natural and musically involving,sounds great and that quite simply is good enough for me.


----------



## Argo Duck

^ the Violectrics certainly seem to cover the bases - high current _and_ high voltage. Hence their ability to range from LCD2 to HD800. This reminds me my V100 (yep only the 100) has been a little neglected lately.
   
  Like you my speaker rigs date back a while. My first "hifi" component system was 1985. With the exception of a 1991 Stax Lambda which I didn't use much, I've only been into headphones and amps about four years. Glad you're enjoying your rig - you've certainly started at a great point


----------



## theophile

I actually did use one other component with the LCD-2s as a comparison with the V200:The headphone socket of my Kenwood L-A1 integrated amp.
   
  The Kenwood L-A1 was reputed to have been designed and manufactured by Kenwood's sister company,Accuphase( whose real company name is *Ken*sonic).The headphone amp of the L-A1 was a dedicated effort,not an afterthought.
   
  I used the LCD-2s with the Kenwood integrated for three weeks while I waited for the V200 to arrive.I cannot say that I didn't like the LCD-2s before the V200 arrived.Of course I did.No headphone I've ever heard(not many)had sounded this good.The LCD-2s are great 'phones.I just felt that the LCD-2s weren't settling into the musical groove.
   
  Naturally,I was curious as to just what the V200 could bring to the party.Well thankfully,the V200 lived up to it's publicity(which is why I'm glad to add my 2 cents here).The V200 made a very good thing better.Both in hi-fi terms and in musical terms as well.Something that doesn't always happen.The end result marks the V200 as a sophisticated product at a reasonable,as opposed to stratospheric, price.
   
  I wish I could hear one of The Lake People's phono stages without having to buy it.These people know how to design a circuit.


----------



## ninjikiran

The violectric was one I wanted to try as well, but the Lyr was easier to obtain in price at least.


----------



## m0gwai

I received my RWA AE yesterday, hope to post some early impression in the near future


----------



## zyth3x

Quote: 





m0gwai said:


> I received my RWA AE yesterday, hope to post some early impression in the near future


 


  Please do.


----------



## Vinnie R.

Quote: 





zyth3x said:


> To throw a few questions out there. I'm considering an Isabellina with the ProDAC and Balanced stage upgrades (which is basically the AE edition without the branding right?) but I'm not convinced the Balanced stage is worth the extra $500. Also, if I'm using my computer as my source does that lessen the need to balance?


 

 Hi zyth3x,
   
  If you have LCD-2s and want to hear them at their best (but are on a limited budget), put the $500 towards the balanced output stage - not the PRO dac.  The balanced output stage has way better drive and dynamics - it really shows you what the LCD-2s can do.... with all kinds of music.
   
  The other thing to note is September is the time to nab an HPA:
  http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=98258.0
   
  And we do occasionally have b-stock and customers who trade-up for the fully loaded Isabella preamp/dac/headphone amp, so email me - and I'm happy to
  re-terminate your LCD-2 cable with the matching Neutrik gold 4-pin XLR for the balanced heapdhone stage at no extra cost to save you another $100.
   
  Besides Skylab who we're all really looking forward to his review of the AE System, Steve Guttenberg is now reviewing the system for www.innerfidelity.com.
   
  I'll post on my forum, facebook page, etc. as soon as the reviews are live, and then we'll be sending more systems to other reviewers on the list.
   
  Hope this info is helpful,
   
  Vinnie


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





ninjikiran said:


> The violectric was one I wanted to try as well, but the Lyr was easier to obtain in price at least.


 

 Even though I own the V200 not a day goes by where I almost buy the Lyr because of it's very tempting and compelling price point.


----------



## Vinnie R.

Quote: 





vinnie r. said:


> All,
> 
> The Audeze Edition Systems are now shipping (yes, we finally have the custom travel cases in stock!).
> 
> ...


 

 I forgot to post more details from the RWA forum: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=98263.0
   
  Getting close!
   
  Hope to see many of you at RMAF!
   
  Cheers,
   
  Vinnie


----------



## WarriorAnt

Vinnie will there be a loaner program for the Corvina? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





   If so please put me on top of the list. Would love to post a review of it.


----------



## ninjikiran

if you live somewhere near NYC we might be able to work something out(like a meet).
  
  Quote: 





warriorant said:


> Even though I own the V200 not a day goes by where I almost buy the Lyr because of it's very tempting and compelling price point.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Unfortunately I made the mistake of moving from NY/CT....


----------



## kwkarth

Lookout y'all, looks like there's a new kid on the block.  I was fortunate to be able to attend a local meet hosted by 32 Ohm / ALO audio today.  There were an abundance of Audeze LCD-2s there and lots of amplifiers.  The Cavali Liquid Fire was there, and sounded outstanding as expected.  One outstanding source was a beautiful Marantz SA-7S1 heavily modified/customized by Jena Labs and fully interconnected with all Jena Labs interconnects and power cables & conditioning.  The LCD-2s were sporting a Jena Labs cable as well.  Sweet tunes to say the least.  
   
  The new kid on the block I mentioned earlier appeared to be an all tube head amp, sporting 6SN7's on the input, appeared to have transformer coupled outputs, and used a tube based rectifier in its very substantial power supply.  I don't even know what this thing was called, but I've never heard the LCD-2's image better.  The amp was being fed by a modest, but excellent MHDT Paradisea 3 DAC, fed by a MacBook Pro via USB.  I was so amazed by the sound, I forgot to take a picture.  Look for more info to come from ALO.
   
  Oh, almost forgot...

  There were also many HD-800's on hand and I have NEVER heard the HD-800 sound better than it did out of that new mystery amp.  Totally outstanding!


----------



## Duckman

Did you notice a price tag?


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





duckman said:


> Did you notice a price tag?


 
  I don't think it's been decided upon yet.


----------



## Parpadello

Hi all !
   
  I've read a lot on this thread since I bought my LCD2, and decided to go with the Lyr. I still have the stock tubes, tried the E188CC (RTC) and heard no differences, and now ordered a pair of GE 6BZ7. I hope I will hear some changes.
   
  Though, I had the opportunity to test the Burson HA 160 (with my Benchmark DAC1), and even if the differences were subtle, it seemed to have a little more dynamic (maybe due to the SS sound) and detail than the Lyr with stock tubes. Concerning the power, both are equally driving the LCD2 with the same ease, when the Lyr is said to be a monster with its 6W.
   
  Now I have two more opportunities : a *SPL Auditor* and a *Audio GD Phoenix*, both at a relatively good price (550$ for the SPL, 1000$ for the Phoenix).
   
My questions :
   
  1. Do you consider the Phoenix or the Auditor as a real upgrade (compared to the Lyr) with the LCD2 ? Or should I stick with the Lyr and try to find the right tubes to get the maximum of it ?
   
  2. Would I get a significant upgrade with a balanced setting (Macbook Pro >> M2Tech Hiface >> Benchmark DAC1 >> Phoenix for example >> LCD2, all in XLR) rather than the one I already have ? _(Hiface >> DAC1 >> Lyr with RCA)_
   
  Thanks a lot for your help


----------



## khaos974

parpadello said:


> Hi all !
> 
> I've read a lot on this thread since I bought my LCD2, and decided to go with the Lyr. I still have the stock tubes, tried the E188CC (RTC) and heard no differences, and now ordered a pair of GE 6BZ7. I hope I will hear some changes.
> 
> ...




Actually, I would consider Benchmark DAC1 directly into the LDC-2 an upgrade 
Have you tried this combinations yet?

The Benchmark unit has also a very good jitter rejection stage, has you tried to use a toslink cable and plug it directly into the MBP? It should yield the same result as with the Hiface.


----------



## BrainFood

Quote: 





duckman said:


> Did you notice a price tag?


 


  Probably higher after the last post


----------



## jax

Quote: 





khaos974 said:


> Actually, I would consider Benchmark DAC1 directly into the LDC-2 an upgrade
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 As a counterpoint to this suggestion, I found the Benchmark DAC1 virtually unlistenable on two separate lengthy auditions in two different versions, the latest being when they implemented USB.  I tried it in several different systems both times and found the stridency in the highs and unnatural sounds that came from it very unappealing.  I even went so far as to do blind tests with a friend against two other DACs with 100% accuracy in picking out the Benchmark each and every time.  That said, many folks love it.  Go figure.  Just my .02 cents.  I've never tried it direct into any headphones though, but can't imagine that would help matters in my particular case.


----------



## khaos974

jax said:


> As a counterpoint to this suggestion, I found the Benchmark DAC1 virtually unlistenable on two separate lengthy auditions in two different versions, the latest being when they implemented USB.  I tried it in several different systems both times and found the stridency in the highs and unnatural sounds that came from it very unappealing.  I even went so far as to do blind tests with a friend against two other DACs with 100% accuracy in picking out the Benchmark each and every time.  That said, many folks love it.  Go figure.  Just my .02 cents.  I've never tried it direct into any headphones though, but can't imagine that would help matters in my particular case.




Parpadello already uses a Benchmark into his Schitt amp.


----------



## TheWuss

Quote: 





brainfood said:


> Probably higher after the last post


 

 sad, isn't it?


----------



## BrainFood

Quote: 





thewuss said:


> sad, isn't it?


 

 It was tongue in cheek.  That said, a lot of buzz before a product is released might not help the price.


----------



## jax

Quote: 





khaos974 said:


> Parpadello already uses a Benchmark into his Schitt amp.


 

 Yes, I saw that...and I am suggesting, certainly to my own preferences, that would be a very weak link.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





thewuss said:


> sad, isn't it?


 

 Yes, It's all one big giant conspiracy.  Just like the LCD-2 was.


----------



## Parpadello

Quote: 





khaos974 said:


> Actually, I would consider Benchmark DAC1 directly into the LDC-2 an upgrade
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


   


  Quote: 





jax said:


> As a counterpoint to this suggestion, I found the Benchmark DAC1 virtually unlistenable on two separate lengthy auditions in two different versions, the latest being when they implemented USB.  I tried it in several different systems both times and found the stridency in the highs and unnatural sounds that came from it very unappealing.  I even went so far as to do blind tests with a friend against two other DACs with 100% accuracy in picking out the Benchmark each and every time.  That said, many folks love it.  Go figure.  Just my .02 cents.  I've never tried it direct into any headphones though, but can't imagine that would help matters in my particular case.


 

 On one hand, the DAC1 headphone jacks could be better than the Schiit, and on the other, the dac would be the weak part of the combo ? 
   
  Doesn't really help, but I will try though. I compared the DAC1 with the Audio GD NFB2 by the way, didn't feel anything wrong with the benchmark... that's why I headed toward the amp for a real upgrade.


----------



## jax

Quote: 





parpadello said:


> On one hand, the DAC1 headphone jacks could be better than the Schiit, and on the other, the dac would be the weak part of the combo ?
> 
> Doesn't really help, but I will try though. I compared the DAC1 with the Audio GD NFB2 by the way, didn't feel anything wrong with the benchmark... that's why I headed toward the amp for a real upgrade.


 

 The input you mention is from two different people and goes in two directions.  If you like the Benchmark sound then by all means go with it.  It comes as no surprise that it stood up to a DAC that cost half the price.  I can only recall a few of the DACs I compared it to and preferred strongly, most were NOS DACs - MHDT Havana and Paradisea+, Muse Model 296, Modwright Transporter, Wavelength Brick.  There was at least two others that I cannot recall as they belonged to a friend.  Every one of those DACs sounded, to my ears, more natural / organic ... more like the real instruments.  I listen to a whole lot of acoustic music and vocals and so that's what I'm making judgments around and what is important to me.  As with everything else here, YMMV.


----------



## googleli

I don't know about you guys but the Benchmark sounded very "digital" to me to say the least. The Grace M90X sounded more natural to me if you want something in a similar price range.


----------



## goofyvic

I feel CEntrance DACmini is better.


----------



## m0gwai

I have my RWA AE since last week, unfortunaltely impossible to get any sound from the left driver, they sent me a new cable hoping it would fix the problem but so far nothing, for the time being I use it as a very expensive paper weight, at least it looks good 
   
  Will post impression if/when I get a new one.


----------



## googleli

Looks awesome! Looking forward to the one channel review.


----------



## khaos974

m0gwai said:


> I have my RWA AE since last week, unfortunaltely impossible to get any sound from the left driver, they sent me a new cable hoping it would fix the problem but so far nothing, for the time being I use it as a very expensive paper weight, at least it looks good
> 
> Will post impression if/when I get a new one.




Is th the amp or the headphones that have an issue?


----------



## m0gwai

Quote: 





khaos974 said:


> Is th the amp or the headphones that have an issue?


 


  It's the amp, actually they believe it might be the DAC, headphones are fine.


----------



## olor1n

What's up with the LCD-2 pads? They look like they've imploded.


----------



## m0gwai

it seems the leather was not as tight as it could be, it's my 4th pair (sadly it's true) and it's the first time it happened but after wearing them for a while it got better.


----------



## Girls Generation

Budget of $3000 including the LCD2 and cables.
What immediately comes up in your mind?

P.S. What would be a good source? I have yet to even dip my toe into the desktop world.


----------



## googleli

$3000 including LCD2 and cables - Burson.
   
  It is hard to answer the question "what would be a good source". If you give me a budget I can make some suggestions.
  
  Quote: 





girls generation said:


> Budget of $3000 including the LCD2 and cables.
> What immediately comes up in your mind?
> 
> P.S. What would be a good source? I have yet to even dip my toe into the desktop world.


----------



## johnwmclean

Quote: 





girls generation said:


> Budget of $3000 including the LCD2 and cables.
> What immediately comes up in your mind?
> 
> P.S. What would be a good source? I have yet to even dip my toe into the desktop world.


 
   
  If your patient things like this pop up occasionally;
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/464627/fs-ft-price-drop-s-e-beta22-in-silver-from-rockhopper-audio
   
  ...as for a dac this has been available for a while, for the price it‘s very good;
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/520497/twisted-pear-dual-mono-fully-balanced-opus-dac-w-metronome-and-all-modules/30


----------



## Red Jacket Mike

Quote: 





girls generation said:


> Budget of $3000 including the LCD2 and cables.
> What immediately comes up in your mind?
> 
> P.S. What would be a good source? I have yet to even dip my toe into the desktop world.


 

 For a couple of hundred over your budget, the Violectric V800 DAC and V200 amp come to mind.  I'm using the V200 with the LCD-2s, and its an excellent pairing.  I have not heard the V800, but have read a lot of good things about it.  This pair would run around $2250 new.  They could be connected with balanced or unbalanced cables, although the V200 is single ended out only.
   
  And as far as aesthetics go, they are matching in size, are stackable, and have a small footprint.  Very solid construction and good looks, as well as fantastic sound with the LCD-2s.


----------



## tme110

It's cool to finally see how the case is set up.  Congrats on the purchase; sorry for the issue...
  Quote: 





m0gwai said:


> I have my RWA AE since last week, unfortunaltely impossible to get any sound from the left driver, they sent me a new cable hoping it would fix the problem but so far nothing, for the time being I use it as a very expensive paper weight, at least it looks good
> 
> Will post impression if/when I get a new one.


----------



## m0gwai

http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/red-wine-audio-audeze-edition-headphone-system
   
  I think it's the first review for the RWA AE


----------



## googleli

I don't think that review is useful. it says a lot of praises of the LCD2 but does not give a true review of the amp itself compared with other popular amps. 

Also just stating the SR009 is good in details and imaging is an understatement. The LCD2 has more meat, that I agree, but the SR009 beats the LCD2 not only in details but also in speed, transparency, accuracy, soundstage, prat, smoothness, basically everything which people think the Rev 2 is an improvement over the Rev 1, but the 009 improves in those regards 10 times better than the Rev 2. But yes, the mid range creaminess or meat of the LCD2 is still unbeatable. 

Interested to see a true review and get a view on how far the Redwine Audeze Edition takes the LCD2 further.


----------



## m0gwai

I have to agree, I knew what to expect from Steve Guttenberg's review just like I know how the 6 moons review will be (if any) so I'm really waiting on Skylab review since for the time the stereo imaging is weak on my unit


----------



## zyth3x

Quote: 





googleli said:


> Interested to see a true review and get a view on how far the Redwine Audeze Edition takes the LCD2 further.


 

 As am I. I have until the end of September to figure out whether or not to go for an Isabellina.


----------



## Vinnie R.

I posted a link to it here, with some quotes from the review:
   
  http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=98808.0
   
  There was some comparo to the Burson, and the Stax - and there is definitely mention to how the Audeze Edition amp/dac
  sounds with the LCD-2s (the review is 3 pages, although they are not long pages).
   
   
   
  Quote: 





> I'm really waiting on Skylab review since for the time the stereo imaging is weak on my unit


 
   
  Looking forward to Skylab's review as well, and I'm shipping you a new unit today, m0gwai... Thanks for your patience and understanding.
   
   
  Cheers!
   
  Vinnie


----------



## Skylab

My reviews coming along, will posted Sunday at the latest.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





girls generation said:


> Budget of $3000 including the LCD2 and cables.
> What immediately comes up in your mind?
> 
> P.S. What would be a good source? I have yet to even dip my toe into the desktop world.


 
  Forget about cables for the moment.  $3K.  LCD $1K,       Wyred 4 Sound DAC-2, $1.5 K,        Schiit Lyr  $500.


----------



## WarriorAnt

I read Steve Guttenberg's review twice but I feel he didn't really say all that much concerning the sound of the combo.  Very vague and generic writing in that regard.


----------



## Girls Generation

So I'm assuming a DAC is more important than the amp?


----------



## m0gwai

Quote: 





girls generation said:


> So I'm assuming a DAC is more important than the amp?


 

 Clearly not, at least not in my book, why don't you start by saying what amp you heard which you liked, didn't liked and why, which sound you're after and what music you listen too.
   
  People here are very talented at spending hypothetical dollars, they will spend your 3k $ like it's nothing and spending 500$ on an amp and 1'500$ on an DAC is in my humble opinion madness.
   
  From the amp that I actually owned I enjoyed the LCD-2 quite a lot with the Meier combo concerto+stagedac, the burson is a good match too and the audio-gd phoenix in balance mode had a lot of punch.


----------



## m0gwai

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> I read Steve Guttenberg's review twice but I feel he didn't really say all that much concerning the sound of the combo.  Very vague and generic writing in that regard.


 


  Exactly! I don't need someone to tell me that a ~5'000$ amp (+DAC) sounds good, of course it sounds good otherwise it wouldn't even exist, what I'm interested in reading is how it compete with other amp in more or less the same price category like the liquid fire, the leben or the apex volcano for example. Is it a significant upgrade from the Isabellina and how some other less expensive amp compare to it. I have to agree this review was very generic and you could find/replace the product name and use it for any other high end amp. It makes me want to read skylab review even more now!


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





m0gwai said:


> spending 500$ on an amp and 1'500$ on an DAC is in my humble opinion madness.


 
   
  My madness goes in the opposite direction, I am using the equivalent of a $500 DAC ($300 DAC + $200 spdif converter) with a $2k amp. The important part though is how it sounds, only your ears can judge that.


----------



## Loevhagen

I have a gut feeling that the AE-system does not sound spectacular in it's price range, and that could be the reason why owners are sparse with comments and that SG's review is generic. Just a feeling I've got.


----------



## Argo Duck

An argument can be made that the Lyr is more than just a $500 amp. It has had generally very favorable reports about its pairing with the LCD2 and has achieved a high ranking in Skylab's round-up of tube-amps. Its sound can be tailored thru tube-rolling although it seems to do very well with the stock GE6BZ7 tubes. It would seem to out-perform its modest price. On this basis, the apparent 3:1 ratio of DAC to amp suggested here might be a little misleading.
   
  That said, there was a suggestion many months ago that source is more important with the LCD2. This suggestion was not pursued AFAIK, seemingly overtaken by a concern with getting 'more power' for the LCD2...
   
  Absolutely it is good advice to start with what music you listen to and what you have liked and not liked about amps you have used.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





m0gwai said:


> Clearly not, at least not in my book, why don't you start by saying what amp you heard which you liked, didn't liked and why, which sound you're after and what music you listen too.
> 
> People here are very talented at spending hypothetical dollars, they will spend your 3k $ like it's nothing and spending 500$ on an amp and 1'500$ on an DAC is in my humble opinion madness.
> 
> From the amp that I actually owned I enjoyed the LCD-2 quite a lot with the Meier combo concerto+stagedac, the burson is a good match too and the audio-gd phoenix in balance mode had a lot of punch.


 
  Well in my case it's really not hypothetical.   I own the LCD-2 and the Wyred 4 Sound DAC-2.  I use the Violectric V200 as an amp but I substituted the Lyr because it fits inside the budget and MANY people in this thread use it with the LCD-2 and love it.  Many people in this thread actually have the W4S/Lyr/LCD-2 combo so your opinion actually does seem to be humble and misguided.
   
  As far as having a great source well you really can't beat that concept now can you.   Starting the chain with a very good source is far from madness and will always pay great sonic benefits.


----------



## m0gwai

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> Well in my case it's really not hypothetical.   I own the LCD-2 and the Wyred 4 Sound DAC-2.  I use the Violectric V200 as an amp but I substituted the Lyr because it fits inside the budget and MANY people in this thread use it with the LCD-2 and love it.  Many people in this thread actually have the W4S/Lyr/LCD-2 combo so your opinion actually does seem to be humble and misguided.
> 
> As far as having a great source well you really can't beat that concept now can you.   Starting the chain with a very good source is far from madness and will always pay great sonic benefits.


 

  

 Maybe you misunderstood my point, by no mean am I saying it's bad combo, I'm just saying that if you give people a budget of 3k they will spend you 3k, heck they will spend even more, so putting half of the budget on DAC just because there's 3k to spend doesn't make sense to me and yes I would argue about your source 'concept' but it's been discussed over and over and both side have valid points.
   
  I'm just sharing my own opinion and if it's different from yours means it's misguided well... there's not much more I can say.


----------



## Girls Generation

I have yet to hear ANY kind of desktop material.

With LCD-2 I am looking for a sound that will complement male vocals, some female vocals, and ballad. Some classical, but mostly vocals, mellow stuff. However, i would appreciate some kick and sub bass from dub step and pop. Clarity is also a must but not overly harsh highs. Mainly looking for lush mids to go with the LCD-2.

What are some examples of source? I don't have CDs.


----------



## Loevhagen

My priorities are the same as you stated. The V200 will provide what you ask for on the LCD-2. Hands-down. The vocals get that detailed, clearity with hint of richness. Totally hooked on that sound signature. I use a Hegel HD10 DAC (it is on the litle warm-ish borderline of neutral)
   
  Happy hunting. Hope you find your synergi / components to enjoy the music genres you stated.


----------



## Radio_head

3K?  Headphone - 1K
          4chan B22- 2K
          DAC - "borrow" one


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





m0gwai said:


> Maybe you misunderstood my point, by no mean am I saying it's bad combo, I'm just saying that if you give people a budget of 3k they will spend you 3k, heck they will spend even more, so putting half of the budget on DAC just because there's 3k to spend doesn't make sense to me and yes I would argue about your source 'concept' but it's been discussed over and over and both side have valid points.
> 
> I'm just sharing my own opinion and if it's different from yours means it's misguided well... there's not much more I can say.


 

 Sorry guy but when you say spending $1500 on a DAC is "*Madness*", it's hard to misunderstand.   Saying "in my opinion", or "it doesn't make sense to me" is a different story altogether.     Also there are plenty of folks here that have done just that in a $3-3.5K budget spent the 1.5K on the W4S DAC.  Not one of them has regretted it from what I can see and that's not "hypothetical" spending.


----------



## Kremer930

Is the Meier combination in Skylabs top 10 amps in pairing with the LCD2's?  
   
  My suggestion would be to look at Robs recommendations of amps and then go from there.
   
  $3k is a little bit tight including the cans but would be able to buy both the Schiit intermediate balanced amp and dac plus the cans and some change for cables.  This should go on pre-order within the month.  I know that it is unproven but if the Lyr can make it to Skylabs top list for only $450 then I am prepared to back that Schiit will come up trumps again.
   

  
  Quote: 





m0gwai said:


> Clearly not, at least not in my book, why don't you start by saying what amp you heard which you liked, didn't liked and why, which sound you're after and what music you listen too.
> 
> People here are very talented at spending hypothetical dollars, they will spend your 3k $ like it's nothing and spending 500$ on an amp and 1'500$ on an DAC is in my humble opinion madness.
> 
> From the amp that I actually owned I enjoyed the LCD-2 quite a lot with the Meier combo concerto+stagedac, the burson is a good match too and the audio-gd phoenix in balance mode had a lot of punch.


----------



## Girls Generation

I can call SR009 with a $10000 amp "madness" but I'm sure there are others that will disagree.

Same situation here. Let's let this one pass, Currawong is watching.


----------



## Duckman

I've recently joined the 'source first' club and think WA's suggested combo would be very hard to beat.
   
  Although the Metrum Acoustics Mini DAC "Octave" + decent USB-SPDIF converter for around the same $1.5k may be as good and possibly better.


----------



## googleli

If you buy the source first theory by all means get the Zodiac Plus DAC with all the $3,000 first or even spend a thousand more on the Zodiac Gold. They have headphones out. Then spend another $3,000 when you are ready to get one of the better headphone amps such as the Leben which is at the very top spot of Skylab's list. Through these years I know that going straight for higher end stuff is much cheaper than buying low end stuff and then inevitably upgrading.


----------



## Pars

I'm using a borrowed pair of LCD-2s (Rev 1) with either my DIY Dynalo or a Dynahi I built. It sounds quite good with either of them, maybe a bit better with the Dynahi. Sources are a pair of modified Rotels (855 with discrete output and clock, and a 991 with modified output stage). I could easily live with these cans. I listen to a variety of material, but these are most impressive on large symphonic works. Best bass I've heard in a headphone (when it is there in the recording). I have not heard these much on other amps, so no comparisons there. And I have not heard the Rev. 2s.


----------



## OzarkTom

As close as the RMAF show is, I would wait to spend my $3000 after the show. There are going to be several new amps-DAC's introduced at the show. RMAF is less than 30 days away now.
   
  Another option is the Antelope Zodiac at $1695 and LCD2 at $1000. This combo sounds great and includes one of the best Dac's on the market today. The amp section matches the LCD2's perfectly with male and female vocals.


----------



## googleli

For those using the SR71B for the LCD2 - do you use mid gain at a higher volume or high gain at a lower volume? Which sounds better to you, or are they the same? I think they sound about the same to me. Thanks.


----------



## Girls Generation

googleli said:


> For those using the SR71B for the LCD2 - do you use mid gain at a higher volume or high gain at a lower volume? Which sounds better to you, or are they the same? I think they sound about the same to me. Thanks.




If it sounds the same to you, I would go for mid gain, high volume since you can control the volume more precisely. I've also read many people using mid gain because of this reason.


----------



## googleli

FOLKS - THIS IS CRAZY. I have run in the SR71B for three days now. Now it is lunch hour - I just had a listen for my LCD2 (the Apple iBud used for run in is still intact btw!!), and it was like - how can a portable setup sound so good !!! And I don't even have the balanced cable yet - still using the balanced to SE connector for the SR71B. Dudes - no kidding - go get the SR71B with the CLAS it is just so darn good for such a small footprint. Definitely better than the Burson no kidding!!!


----------



## Girls Generation

googleli said:


> FOLKS - THIS IS CRAZY. I have run in the SR71B for three days now. Now it is lunch hour - I just had a listen for my LCD2 (the Apple iBud used for run in is still intact btw!!), and it was like - how can a portable setup sound so good !!! And I don't even have the balanced cable yet - still using the balanced to SE connector for the SR71B. Dudes - no kidding - go get the SR71B with the CLAS it is just so darn good for such a small footprint. Definitely better than the Burson no kidding!!!




Would you like to give a comparison between that and the Leben, in ten words? (Just so I know what I can expect to lose out on if I go for this transportable rig)


----------



## googleli

Kid grew into teenager but still no match to adult.


----------



## Audiowood

Quote: 





girls generation said:


> I have yet to hear ANY kind of desktop material.
> 
> With LCD-2 I am looking for a sound that will complement male vocals, some female vocals, and ballad. Some classical, but mostly vocals, mellow stuff. However, i would appreciate some kick and sub bass from dub step and pop. Clarity is also a must but not overly harsh highs. Mainly looking for lush mids to go with the LCD-2.
> 
> What are some examples of source? I don't have CDs.


 
   
  I think we have the same taste.. If you're looking for some serious kick bass with superb clarity, I recommend M1 HPA + Dac-2 + LCD-2 ($3300). You will have all the details & clarity of the HD800 without sacrificing the natural lush mid of the LCD-2. or you can go with DAC-2 + LYR but you will loose some details especially on the extended high from M1 HPA & the dynamics (drums don't hit as hard with LYR) but it still make a very good combo. Do not sacrifice the DAC, its the most important chain in my opinion beside the headphone. IE. if you have a lousy DAC, no amount of amp is going to make it sound better - all the details, music separation is lost.
   
  Worst case scenario, Just get W4S DAC-2 & connect directly to the balance out with Q audio balance cable. Sound superb too..
   
  Here's my ranking from what I have:
  1) M1 HPA + W4S DAC-2 + LCD-2 (don't worry abt cable) - $799 + $1499 + $945
  2) LYR + W4S DAC-2 = $499 + $1499 + $945 (go with 6B27 tubes to get some clarity)
  3) W4S + Q audio balance cable = $1499 + $200
   
  Any of the above would blow most portable DAC and amp out of the water (with the exception of Algorhythm solo dac 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





)


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





audiowood said:


> I think we have the same taste.. If you're looking for some serious kick bass with superb clarity, I recommend M1 HPA + Dac-2 + LCD-2 ($3300). You will have all the details & clarity of the HD800 without sacrificing the natural lush mid of the LCD-2. or you can go with DAC-2 + LYR but you will loose some details especially on the extended high from M1 HPA & the dynamics (drums don't hit as hard with LYR) but it still make a very good combo. Do not sacrifice the DAC, its the most important chain in my opinion beside the headphone. IE. if you have a lousy DAC, no amount of amp is going to make it sound better - all the details, music separation is lost.
> 
> Worst case scenario, Just get W4S DAC-2 & connect directly to the balance out with Q audio balance cable. Sound superb too..
> 
> ...


 


  For a while before I got my amp I was connecting my LCD-2 directly to the outs of the W4S DAC-2 using an adapter cable I had made from Blue Jeans Cable.  W4S suggested the cables and the LCD hookup.


----------



## Girls Generation

How was it, and how was the improvement when you got your v200?


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





girls generation said:


> How was it, and how was the improvement when you got your v200?


 


  It wasn't  bad actually and it enabled me to take a little more time to decide on an amp.  But it was no match for the V200.   sometimes at night I use the DAC-2 in my home theater to watch high def files from my WD HD Player and I use the DAC outs that way with the connector for headphone viewing.


----------



## m0gwai

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> Sorry guy but when you say spending $1500 on a DAC is "*Madness*", it's hard to misunderstand.


 
  And yet you manage to, I've spend much much more than 1'500$ on DAC and that's fine, I was refering to spending half the budget on a DAC.


----------



## m0gwai

Quote: 





ozarktom said:


> Another option is the Antelope Zodiac at $1695 and LCD2 at $1000. This combo sounds great and includes one of the best Dac's on the market today. The amp section matches the LCD2's perfectly with male and female vocals.


 


  I owned the Zodiac+ that I recently sold here, granted I'm not a big fan of the 'all-in-one' boxes (says the guy who just purchased a RWA AE) I have to say that the Zodiacs are outstanding DACs, from memory it came very close to my all time DAC reference the Weiss 202 (selling it was by far my biggest 'audiophile' mistake) and that means a lot (at least to me) but I thought the amp part was lacking a bit of power to make the LCD-2 truly shine, when paired with my now gone Audio-GD phoenix in balance mode I have to say it was an outstanding combo, in terms of neutrality and dynamic it might have been the best my LCD-2 sounded.
   
  Another all-in-one option that I liked but didn't owned is the lynx Hilo, it doesn't get much love here because it's more geared towards the professional crowd but I spent ~1 hour with it and I was impressed (http://www.lynxstudio.com/product_detail.asp?i=59#)
   
  One think is for sure with 3'000$ you have a lot of great option, if you can I would really try to find a place where you can listen to some gear so you get an idea for yourself, forums are great but nothing beat hearing things for yourself.


----------



## sachu

My recommendation for an LCD-2 system under 3k would be :
   
  Assemblage DAC 2.7 source that i have for sale (825 plus shipping)  (i'll wager a bet none of the DACs listed in the posts above comes close to its tonality, dynamics and midrange).
   
Stacker 2 headphone amplifier (the model no escapes me) -900 plus shipping 
   
  Audeze LCD-2  Rev 2 - 1k
   
  Q audio or used ALO audio cable - 250
   
  Crimson  RM Musiclink interconnects. - 360
   
  You would have a world class system..this had been my reference system for nearly 2 and half years!! The only thing that has changed in my rig is the Liquid Fire and the only reason for selling the assemblage is cause am downsizing to just one rig.
   
   
  edit: ok ok ..a little over 3k..


----------



## Girls Generation

So many different recommendations........ It's overwhelming...


----------



## Equus

Quote: 





girls generation said:


> So many different recommendations........ It's overwhelming...


 


 Part of it comes from people having different tastes.  Even if someone likes the same music, priorities and aesthetics can vary wildly.  As m0gwai points out, you also have a lot of options in the price range...some better than others, but lots of serviceable combos.
   
  That being said, the combination sachu recommends is what I had been using until the Liquid Fire and Berkeley DAC purchases.  At the price point, the Assemblage->Stacker combo is great and has wonderful synergy with the LCD-2, especially if your aesthetic is for vocals.  And I'm not saying that just because my Stacker II is for sale.


----------



## Girls Generation

I think at this point the DAC-2 is pretty much a given. 
I'm looking for comparisons among the M1, Lyr, V200, and the Stacker 2...

Anyone willing to help me out before I go spending years trying to dig up vague comparisons in the millions of threads, dating back to the dinosaur age, via the "search function?"


----------



## sachu

none of those come anywhere close to the stacker in terms of sheer musicality. YOu will be grinning from ear to ear, guaranteed! An upgrade form the stacker 2 would mean moving on to the LIquid Fire or a Balancing Act.


----------



## Girls Generation

I think instead of a portable sr71b balanced aetup that will cost me 2600 (including balanced input) I will go for the DAC-2 and use the LCD2 straight from it as I study more into the different amps and also save up more $ as well.  smarter choice probs


----------



## grokit

Have there been any announcements re the V281?


----------



## Skylab

For those interested:
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/572939/review-red-wine-audio-audeze-edition-balanced-headphone-amplifier-dac-combo#post_7773726


----------



## Girls Generation

I stumbled across Skylab's mention of the MHDT Havana + Schitt Lyr + LCD-2 combo. However, I can't seem to find many descriptions or reviews with the two of them paired. Can anyone tell me what this combo (with the Bendix 2C51 tubes) sounds like, and which genres it's geared towards?

On a side now: It's funny that this combo costs less than the CLAS-DB2-SR71B-LCD2 transportable combo.


----------



## LiqTenExp

I have personally listened to that combo and found it way too warm and tuby sounding.  I listen to rock and it was too thick sounding for me.  A lot of the drums for me lost some edge on impacts and I just didn't favor it for the style of music I listen to.  This depends on the tubes selected slightly but in my case it was NOS Mullard in both.  The MHDT Havana sounded great with a pure solid state amp like the Apache though, ask brasewel.  We were comparing the MHDT Havana to the PS Audio DLIII with a few amps.  I preferred the PS Audio DLIII with the Lyr over the MHDT Havana.  (Hence why after listening to Wedge's I went out and bought one that week).  I use the PS Audio DLIII with my LD MKVI+ also.
   
  We all agreed we liked tubes somewhere in the chain but not everywhere!


----------



## Skylab

Unquestionably that combo is going to be warm and tubey, and could be too much so with some tube sets. I thought the Havana was too warm with the Bendix. I much prefer the Western Electric 396A. With the GE6BZ7 in the Lyr, the combo is lush, yes, but not overly so or to the detriment of the music.


----------



## LiqTenExp

yeah we probably could have used a set of nos amperex a-frames (orange text) or some nos telefunken in the lyr and it would have tweaked it back in the right direction.  still would have been pushing it for me, i like it right in the middle of tubey-ness


----------



## Girls Generation

So with the Havana with the WE 396A, and the Lyr with the GE6BZ7....



> With LCD-2 I am looking for a sound that will complement male vocals, some female vocals, and ballad. Some classical, but mostly vocals, mellow stuff. However, i would appreciate some kick and sub bass from dub step and pop. Clarity is also a must but not overly harsh highs. Mainly looking for lush mids to go with the LCD-2, a smile-inducing rig that can also be a jaw-dropping rig as well.




How would you put the above combo with the type of stuff I expect/listen to?

And for Skylab: With a budget of $2000-2500 and the music I prefer, what would you suggest off the top of your head so I can gain a sense of direction? So far I'm researching the W4S DAC-2, Stacker 2, and V200...


----------



## Skylab

$2000-2500 for both amp and DAC?


----------



## Girls Generation

Yep. Basically entry level high end stuff.


----------



## OzarkTom

Every Mullard I have ever tried sounds too dark and tooby sounding. If your system is way too bright, the Mullards are perfect. But I have never liked the soundstage of the Mullards. With Mullards in both, that had to be a horrible sound.
  Quote: 





liqtenexp said:


> I have personally listened to that combo and found it way too warm and tuby sounding.  I listen to rock and it was too thick sounding for me.  A lot of the drums for me lost some edge on impacts and I just didn't favor it for the style of music I listen to.  This depends on the tubes selected slightly but in my case it was NOS Mullard in both.  The MHDT Havana sounded great with a pure solid state amp like the Apache though, ask brasewel.  We were comparing the MHDT Havana to the PS Audio DLIII with a few amps.  I preferred the PS Audio DLIII with the Lyr over the MHDT Havana.  (Hence why after listening to Wedge's I went out and bought one that week).  I use the PS Audio DLIII with my LD MKVI+ also.
> 
> We all agreed we liked tubes somewhere in the chain but not everywhere!


----------



## WillHughes

Quote: 





girls generation said:


> So with the Havana with the WE 396A, and the Lyr with the GE6BZ7....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I'll be doing a review that should be out about the 10-11th of October, it will be solely for the LCD-2 and comprise of many different amps/dacs. The W4S DAC1 and Violectric V200 and V800 will be in as well as all of Bursons gear and the Schiit Lyr. Perhaps you'd like to wait around for that comparison before pulling the trigger.


----------



## OzarkTom

Quote: 





m0gwai said:


> I owned the Zodiac+ that I recently sold here, granted I'm not a big fan of the 'all-in-one' boxes (says the guy who just purchased a RWA AE) I have to say that the Zodiacs are outstanding DACs, from memory it came very close to my all time DAC reference the Weiss 202 (selling it was by far my biggest 'audiophile' mistake) and that means a lot (at least to me) but I thought the amp part was lacking a bit of power to make the LCD-2 truly shine, when paired with my now gone Audio-GD phoenix in balance mode I have to say it was an outstanding combo, in terms of neutrality and dynamic it might have been the best my LCD-2 sounded.
> 
> Another all-in-one option that I liked but didn't owned is the lynx Hilo, it doesn't get much love here because it's more geared towards the professional crowd but I spent ~1 hour with it and I was impressed (http://www.lynxstudio.com/product_detail.asp?i=59#)
> 
> One think is for sure with 3'000$ you have a lot of great option, if you can I would really try to find a place where you can listen to some gear so you get an idea for yourself, forums are great but nothing beat hearing things for yourself.


 

 Did you try the Voltikus power supply with your Zodiac+? That increases the dynamics by a huge margin. In my 40 years of experience, I love the all-in-one boxes the most. I was a High-End audio dealer for 15 years, tried about every combo ever made. You have less cables, less connectors, and less expense. For a long time I wanted someone to design a CD player inside an integrated amp. The Zodiac is the closest thing to that.
   
  I found out a long time ago that every cable in your system not only colors the sound, but also detracts in the information that passes through your system.


----------



## OzarkTom

I now have about 750 hours on the Zodiac Gold + Voltikus that I am now using. What is so amazing is how the soundstage height and width keeps increasing with the Audeze LCD2's every week of break-in. I am now hearing detail and hall ambience several feet outside the LCD2's, depending on the recording.


----------



## googleli

Does the Audeze Edition have analog input? I would like to try it out with my Esoteric K-01 and compare its amp section with my Leben direct. If not I have to think twice about getting it.


----------



## googleli

The Zodiac Gold with Voltikus is a gem, but it would be a waste just to use it with headphones - it truly shines when used with high end speaker systems. In speaker systems the soundstage improvement becomes huge. IMO the Zodiac Gold is head and shoulders above the Weiss DAC 202. You will have to venture into the US$15,000+ range to find a DAC better than it.

  
  Quote: 





ozarktom said:


> I now have about 750 hours on the Zodiac Gold + Voltikus that I am now using. What is so amazing is how the soundstage height and width keeps increasing with the Audeze LCD2's every week of break-in. I am now hearing detail and hall ambience several feet outside the LCD2's, depending on the recording.


----------



## Argo Duck

I think Rob mentioned in his review it does not, but I wasn't paying attention to that. You should check out the review...
  
  Quote: 





googleli said:


> *Does the Audeze Edition have analog input?* I would like to try it out with my Esoteric K-01 and compare its amp section with my Leben direct. If not I have to think twice about getting it.


----------



## grokit

It has three digital inputs and one SE analog output.


----------



## OzarkTom

My power camp should be back next week from getting modified with Duelund Alexander caps. My speakers are the Anthony Gallo Stradas, so the soundstage should be huge. Jason said after he modded the amp, expect a huge soundstage. I already had that with the Stradas, this will get even more interesting.
  
  Quote: 





googleli said:


> The Zodiac Gold with Voltikus is a gem, but it would be a waste just to use it with headphones - it truly shines when used with high end speaker systems. In speaker systems the soundstage improvement becomes huge. IMO the Zodiac Gold is head and shoulders above the Weiss DAC 202. You will have to venture into the US$15,000+ range to find a DAC better than it.


----------



## justie

Sounds awesome will. did u just order the lyr? XD
  
  Quote: 





willhughes said:


> I'll be doing a review that should be out about the 10-11th of October, it will be solely for the LCD-2 and comprise of many different amps/dacs. The W4S DAC1 and Violectric V200 and V800 will be in as well as all of Bursons gear and the Schiit Lyr. Perhaps you'd like to wait around for that comparison before pulling the trigger.


----------



## SHAHZADA123

Quote: 





girls generation said:


> I stumbled across Skylab's mention of the MHDT Havana + Schitt Lyr + LCD-2 combo. However, I can't seem to find many descriptions or reviews with the two of them paired. Can anyone tell me what this combo (with the Bendix 2C51 tubes) sounds like, and which genres it's geared towards?
> 
> On a side now: It's funny that this combo costs less than the CLAS-DB2-SR71B-LCD2 transportable combo.


 

 I have the same combo; MHDT Havana(stock tubes) > Lyr(Mullards E88CC) > LCD-2 rev1 and prefer it to the Woo WA22. Nice lush mids, great speed and excellent bass impact.


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





shahzada123 said:


> I have the same combo; MHDT Havana(stock tubes) > Lyr(Mullards E88CC) > LCD-2 rev1 and prefer it to the Woo WA22. Nice lush mids, great speed and excellent bass impact.


 

 I still slightly prefer my WA22 over my Lyr. What tubes are you using with your WA22?


----------



## ninjikiran

I had to put my Lyr on a platform.  The tubes were resonating a little or so I think they were, I could hear a slight ringing noise every so often.  Isolating them on a platform with no vibrations seemed to fix it well.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





ninjikiran said:


> I had to put my Lyr on a platform.  The tubes were resonating a little or so I think they were, I could hear a slight ringing noise every so often.  Isolating them on a platform with no vibrations seemed to fix it well.


 

 Did you try tube dampers?


----------



## SHAHZADA123

Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> I still slightly prefer my WA22 over my Lyr. What tubes are you using with your WA22?


 

 EH 5AR4/Create Audio 6SN7/TS 7236


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





shahzada123 said:


> EH 5AR4/Create Audio 6SN7/TS 7236


 

 I suggest you try a pair of 5692 or CV181-Z (Shuguang Treasure...they're not cheap though) driver tubes. As well, the Mullard 5AR4 of Princess 274B rectifier tube. I find these tubes work amazingly well with the LCD-2s.


----------



## SHAHZADA123

Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> I suggest you try a pair of 5692 or CV181-Z (Shuguang Treasure...they're not cheap though) driver tubes. As well, the Mullard 5AR4 of Princess 274B rectifier tube. I find these tubes work amazingly well with the LCD-2s.


 

 Thanks.
  Now the tube-hunt begins


----------



## WillHughes

Quote: 





justie said:


> Sounds awesome will. did u just order the lyr? XD


 


  I have it on a home-trial from I-Enjoy


----------



## ninjikiran

If the problem persist I will look into the dampeners, saw some cheap ones from a site called Herbies online($13 a peice I think I saw).  My only concern is the space around the tube.


----------



## justie

did u have to pay anything for the home trial? i was interested in doing that at first
  
  Quote: 





willhughes said:


> I have it on a home-trial from I-Enjoy


----------



## Argo Duck

I never did this but I don't believe you have to pay. Nelson and Linda are very good to deal with btw. Very helpful and responsive.
  Quote: 





justie said:


> d*id u have to pay anything for the home trial?* i was interested in doing that at first


----------



## WillHughes

Refer to the outline of the "Home Trial" on I-Enjoy's T&C's page: http://i-enjoy.com.au/Terms.aspx


----------



## WillHughes

What I've been up to this weekend and a taste of things to come


----------



## Radio_head

Is that the HA160D _and _the new DA160?  If so could you compare their DACs?  I'm interested in upgrading my amp to a B22 but am looking at the DA160 as a standalone DAC, being impressed with Burson's all-in-one.


----------



## WillHughes

A review will be coming around the middle of October, current list of gear is:
   
  Burson HA-160
  Burson HA-160D
  Burson DA-160
  CEntrance DAC Mini
  NuForce Icon HDP
  Schiit Lyr
  Violectric V200
  Violectric V800 (maybe)
  Wyred4Sound DAC1
   
  Will compare the DACs in that review, don't want to give any impressions just yet.


----------



## mmlogic

I'm using Little Dot MK6 to drive LCD-2, very serious looking amp, can produce amazing sound with the right tube.


----------



## DarknightDK

Quote: 





willhughes said:


> A review will be coming around the middle of October, current list of gear is:
> 
> Burson HA-160
> Burson HA-160D
> ...


 

 Looking forward to your review of those Amps. I'm in the market for a reasonably priced DAC and headphone amp to go with the Audeze LCD 2.
   
  I've shortlisted the Burson HA-160D, CEntrance DACmini, Schiit Lyr + Bifrost and the Violectric V200. It would be great to hear what you have to report now that you have them in-hand and can pit them directly with each other.


----------



## OzarkTom

So are you also reviewing the Schiit BiFrost DAC? That is due out next week.
  
  Quote: 





willhughes said:


> A review will be coming around the middle of October, current list of gear is:
> 
> Burson HA-160
> Burson HA-160D
> ...


----------



## dyl1dyl

Quote: 





willhughes said:


> What I've been up to this weekend and a taste of things to come


 


   


  Quote: 





willhughes said:


> A review will be coming around the middle of October, current list of gear is:
> 
> Burson HA-160
> Burson HA-160D
> ...


 

 Will be looking forward to this.


----------



## dyl1dyl

Quote: 





mmlogic said:


> I'm using Little Dot MK6 to drive LCD-2, very serious looking amp, can produce amazing sound with the right tube.


 

 Looking good. I'm thinking of picking up this amp, could I just check, what tubes are you currently using?


----------



## WillHughes

Quote: 





darknightdk said:


> Looking forward to your review of those Amps. I'm in the market for a reasonably priced DAC and headphone amp to go with the Audeze LCD 2.
> 
> I've shortlisted the Burson HA-160D, CEntrance DACmini, Schiit Lyr + Bifrost and the Violectric V200. It would be great to hear what you have to report now that you have them in-hand and can pit them directly with each other.


 

 Unfortunately the Bifrost won't be in the review, sorry.


----------



## Dreaming Of A Better ... (Jun 19, 2020)

...


----------



## olor1n

Quote: 





willhughes said:


> A review will be coming around the middle of October, current list of gear is:
> 
> Burson HA-160
> Burson HA-160D
> ...


 

 That's absurd. How could you possibly formulate meaningful conclusions with so many components on hand at once?


----------



## Girls Generation

willhughes said:


> Unfortunately the Bifrost won't be in the review, sorry.




How about a Stacker 2?


----------



## treebug

Anyone tried the Audeze LCD-2 with Beyerdynamic's A1 amp?


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





willhughes said:


> A review will be coming around the middle of October, current list of gear is:
> 
> Will compare the DACs in that review, don't want to give any impressions just yet.


 


  Where did you get all that gear?


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





olor1n said:


> That's absurd. How could you possibly formulate meaningful conclusions with so many components on hand at once?


 

 This is a valid point.


----------



## uryens

How could you possibly formulate meaningful conclusions with so many components on hand at once? (2)


----------



## Wedge

I guess it depends how well he really knows the music he is listening to.  Besides the fact, that we have no idea how long he's been listening to all that gear for, whether or not he has a job or any other commitments in his life (maybe hes got a lot of free time).


----------



## justie

personally im glad and thankful someone is going out of his way to listen and test all that gear (evryone wants to do this of course XD ) but also take the time to write it up (nt everyone has the time and patience to do this) for everyone else to read his findings.


----------



## Clayton SF

... or just a very good ear.


----------



## m0gwai

On Saturday morning I received my new RWA AE, I have to say that the level of customer service they are providing is simply outstanding! If you haven't followed I received mine last week but only the right channel was working, Vinnie from RWA sent me a replacement cable hoping it would fix the problem but it didn't, he then send me a new amp which is now working perfectly all of this happened in 7 days and I'm in Europe (!), he also offered to cover all my expenses including custom fees and shipping, I have to say this is one of the most professional customer service I've encountered and I buy a LOT of things online.
   
  I will try to write a mini review but keep in mind that writing good audio reviews is a talent not many have and English is not my first language so please forgive me for the mistakes, also since it's different from Skylab please keep in mind it's only my opinion.
   
  I spent most of my week-end listening to this new toy, I mostly played some music but also watched a few movies. My music setup is simple, it's a PC playing FLAC in foobar or some ALAC through ITunes, I used the USB input on the RWA AE since it appears to be the recommended choice, for movies I played some blurays from my OPPO that goes to my SVS realizer A8 (Sound processor) and then used the optical out to feed the RWA AE DAC.
   
  I listen to a lot of different music but mogwai is as you can tell one of my all time favorite, I was pleased to read that Skylab also used some of their music in his review, I played rock action which is my favorite mogwai album and one I know extremely well. I have to say I was somehow disappointed by the presentation offered by the RWA AE, the complex electronic texture and controlled distortion on "Sine wave" seemed distant, compressed, I wasn't getting this feeling of extension I had with other amp. When playing "take me somewhere nice", a beautiful piece of minimalist post rock, the RWA AE was sounding too analytical and not "organic" enough for my taste, maybe it was the combination of the LCD-2 being a tad dark but the song usually gives me the feeling of being wrapped in a warm blanket of sounds, it wasn't the case, again I thought the sound to be distant, the vocals were detached from the main presentation making it somehow uninvolving.
   
  I decided it was time for something completely different and started playing refused "the shape of punk to come", it's not only a brilliant post-hardcore album it also incorporate ambient elements and some avant-garde jazz breakdown, I could listen to this album again and again and still find new things to like about it, just like wine it gets better with time. I was much more pleased with what the RWA AE was offering to my ears, it managed very well the control chaos, it sounded very dynamic without being fatiguing, at some point while listening to "new noise" I felt it could have a bit more punch but the bass was tight and a great level of details retrieval.
   
  Finally I moved on to Radiohead "Kid A", when it comes to their music a lot of people consider "OK computer" to be their masterpiece, I'm not one of them. I can understand that the beautiful apparent simplicity of "OK computer" can be appealing to many but in my opinion it's no match for the complexity and pure genius behind "Kid A", the sound, the mood and the arrangements makes it a very interesting album to compare amp on. it sounds cold, the drums and beats are very sharp and dry (for the lack of a better word), it reminds me a lot of the sound from producer Steve albini. Again I wasn't impress by the presentation of the RWA AE, this album is one my reference CDs and I never go to a shop or 'meeting' without it so I know it backwards and I thought the Red Wine Audio wasn't doing too good, the overall presentation was good, one could say even great but in my book it's implied an amp this expensive will sound good, I thought it was lacking some punch and the drums/beats were not as accurate as some other top of the line amps I've heard.
   
  I then spent time using it with some movies but I won't be commenting on that here since I guess the interest is limited.
   
  So is it the best my LCD-2 have ever sounded, the short answer is no. Reading again what I wrote above might come as a bit harsh but you need to keep in mind this is an almost $5'000 system, it does sound great but when you have this cash you also have a lot of option to consider and from the top my mind I can come with a few system that I've heard or that I've owned that performed better with my LCD-2 or nearly as good for a lot less money.
   
  In conclusion the RWA AE is not for everyone, the built quality is great, customer service outstanding, it offers a very enjoyable sound, it’s neutral and detailed but lacks some punch and that little something that makes it truly shine.
   
  If you're interested mine will be shortly on the for sales forum, feel free to PM me for details or pricing, I'm now moving on to something else, maybe a liquid fire or maybe the RSA dark star, who knows


----------



## Argo Duck

Hi m0gwai thanks for the detailed impression and obvious care you took over this. My only question: you don't agree with the idea of a period of burn in changing the sound significantly? I would be interested to know if any of the albums you mention sound different to you in another week or two - assuming you keep the amp this long...
   
  +1 about Kid A btw, although sometimes I think Hail to the Thief is my favorite!


----------



## DarknightDK

Thanks for your honest impressions of the RWA AE m0gwai. Could it be that the AE hasn't been burnt in enough?
   
  What's a better DAC/Amp combo you would recommend for the Audeze LCD-2s which you think is the best pairing you've heard so far? I'm in the market for a DAC/Amp to go with my LCD-2s and have been tempted with the RWA AE but at that price point, as you say, there are many many other options.


----------



## Kremer930

olor1n said:


> That's absurd. How could you possibly formulate meaningful conclusions with so many components on hand at once?




Isn't this a little strong and negative for someone who is putting in considerable effort to add to the knowledge pool? If you have doubts about the ability to refine the conclusion based on such a large sample why don't you put it forward as a suggestion rather than being abrasive. 

I agree that it does seem like an unusual starting point but I will still be looking forward to the findings.


----------



## m0gwai

I never been a big believer of the burn-in effect or at least not to the extend some people want to attribute to it but I had to admit in some case I could hear a (significant) difference on some of the equipment I owned, however I never had something I did not enjoyed from the start that turned into something great after the burn-in, usually the burn-in will refine the sound signature at least according to my ears.


----------



## Skylab

Hi M0gwai, 

I completely respect your opinion. We all hear differently. But just for the record, did you listen 100% with the stock JJ tube? If so, I can understand to some degree where you might be coming from. But please do let us know on that.


----------



## m0gwai

Hi Skylab,
   
  For the time being I've been using only the stock tubes.


----------



## zyth3x

While we're on the topic of RWA, I placed an order for a fully upgraded Isabellina today. Looking to get some recommendations on tube upgrades as Skylab mentioned in his AE review that it responded well to rolling. This will be my first tube experience so some guidance would be great.
   
  Skylab mentioned the Mullard 2492 sounded good. Is this the one?
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/E88CC-CV2492-MULLARD-MILITARY-NOS-BOXED-/260577827114?pt=UK_Consumer_VintageAudio_RL&hash=item3caba6192a#ht_500wt_1156
   
  Any others I should be looking at? a brief description of their sound signature would help a lot.
   
  Thanks.


----------



## m0gwai

ahah I was looking at this exact same listing 5 minutes ago


----------



## Vinnie R.

Hi m0gwai,
   
  Thank you for your honest post:
   
  There are a lot of components in the amp/dac that DO need burn-in time.  Even the ALO Audeze Cable needs it.  You will be rewarded
  if you are patient and let the system play 24/7 (in AC mode) for a few days a fairly loud levels, connected to the LCD-2s.  The result is
  more bass extension and more refined top-end.  I will not agrue if you don't believe this to be true, but I hope you can still give it a try.
   
  Regarding tube rolling - Unfortunately, we cannot get enough quantity of the really good NOS tubes that make the AE system sound so much better
  (as Skylab and others have experimented with).  
   
  Here are the ones that I highly recommend (not in any particular order at this time):
   
  -- The Mullard 2492 that Skylab used.  
   
  -- MiniWatt Dario E188CC [7308]  (Made in France in the 60's in the factory "La Radiotechnique" near Paris)
   
  -- Amperex Pinch Waist 6922 (made in Holland)
   
  All of these have a richer mid-range, much better tonality and the top-end is more detailed and "sweeter."  Bass is great with all of them,
  but burn-in seems to help the most with it.
   
  But poor records WILL be revealed with this system, so if the original recording has issues, you will hear them.  NOS d/a mode is more forgiving.
   
  I'm not sure about all your setting on your PC, but try comparing the sound of the PC/USB to using your Oppo's optical output when playing the CDs
  of the same music.  You might be surprised!
   
  Sincerely,
   
  Vinnie


----------



## TheWuss

Quote: 





vinnie r. said:


> -- Amperex Pinch Waist 6922 (made in Holland)


 

 I guess finding a single of this tube is possible.
  What are they going for these days?  $500 per tube?


----------



## m0gwai

Quote: 





thewuss said:


> I guess finding a single of this tube is possible.
> What are they going for these days?  $500 per tube?


 
   
  500$... exactly what I wanted to spend


----------



## mwilson

Yeah, I asked Rob, and he said that was the tube, and he's dealt with that seller before. Actually, I purhcased one, and he shipped it the same day.

  
  Quote: 





zyth3x said:


> While we're on the topic of RWA, I placed an order for a fully upgraded Isabellina today. Looking to get some recommendations on tube upgrades as Skylab mentioned in his AE review that it responded well to rolling. This will be my first tube experience so some guidance would be great.
> 
> Skylab mentioned the Mullard 2492 sounded good. Is this the one?
> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/E88CC-CV2492-MULLARD-MILITARY-NOS-BOXED-/260577827114?pt=UK_Consumer_VintageAudio_RL&hash=item3caba6192a#ht_500wt_1156
> ...


----------



## Vinnie R.

Quote: 





thewuss said:


> I guess finding a single of this tube is possible.
> What are they going for these days?  $500 per tube?


 


  For just one tube, I've paid $200.
   
  Matched pairs (which are not needed) go for around $500...


----------



## m0gwai

I just bought a E88CC/CV2492 MULLARD MILITARY NOS BOXED, will see when it gets there and will let the system burn-in for a week but if after that it's still the same --> for sale forum


----------



## zyth3x

Be sure to post some impressions, I'll most likely grab one soon too.


----------



## TheWuss

Quote: 





m0gwai said:


> I just bought a E88CC/CV2492 MULLARD MILITARY NOS BOXED, will see when it gets there and will let the system burn-in for a week but if after that it's still the same --> for sale forum


 


 That sounds fair enough, m0gwai.
  Just to give you some encouragement:  If i had made the decision on my Cavalli Liquid Fire before it reached the 200 hour mark, I would've probably punted it out the door.
  Not to say the changes were night and day, but it certainly has improved to my ears.


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





m0gwai said:


> I just bought a E88CC/CV2492 MULLARD MILITARY NOS BOXED, will see when it gets there and will let the system burn-in for a week but if after that it's still the same --> for sale forum


 

 I will be interested to read what you think.  I think it makes a VERY significant difference.  I feel for amp manufacturers on this, to an extent - NOS supplies of tubes are impossible to predict, and so it's very tempting to supply something like the JJ, which is easy to get.
   
  That said, as I mentioned in my review, my opinion is the JJ is a relatively bad sounding tube.  And since you can get NOS Sylvania and Philips 6922's from tubedepot in basically unlimited quantity, if I were Vinnie, which of course I am not, I would have provided the AE with at least one of those, as they sound much better than the JJ.  But that is just my personal opinion.
   
  I do think that, before selling the AE off, you owe it to yourself to try it with something other than the Mullard.  I liked the AE enough, with the Mullard, that I sold off my Woo WA22 and bought the AE review sample.  So I put my money where my mouth is.


----------



## grokit

Has anyone tried the new NFB-10SE with the LCD-2? For the promo price it looks like a real contender.


----------



## m0gwai

Quote: 





skylab said:


> I will be interested to read what you think.  I think it makes a VERY significant difference.  I feel for amp manufacturers on this, to an extent - NOS supplies of tubes are impossible to predict, and so it's very tempting to supply something like the JJ, which is easy to get.
> 
> That said, as I mentioned in my review, my opinion is the JJ is a relatively bad sounding tube.  And since you can get NOS Sylvania and Philips 6922's from tubedepot in basically unlimited quantity, if I were Vinnie, which of course I am not, I would have provided the AE with at least one of those, as they sound much better than the JJ.  But that is just my personal opinion.
> 
> I do think that, before selling the AE off, you owe it to yourself to try it with something other than the Mullard.  I liked the AE enough, with the Mullard, that I sold off my Woo WA22 and bought the AE review sample.  So I put my money where my mouth is.


 
   
  I think you're right and it wouldn't be fair to make a final judgment before giving it a chance to perform to it's full potential. For my own mental sanity I decided to stay away from tube rolling since the never ending upgrade is driving me crazy enough but I think very highly of your reviews and judgment so I will give it a try and post my opinion here. Also I decided that Vinnie did enough and lost enough money sending me replacement so I won't use his 30 days money back guarantee which means that if I sell it I will be loosing several hundreds of $ which of course I would rather avoid.
   
  I was also thinking that you made your review using the LCD-2 rev1, it might be far fetched but they might be a better match, I owned both revision and from memory I remember that their sound signature was ''quite'' different, I don't want to make claims I can't back up but I'm pretty sure I could tell them apart in a blind test, this being said I prefered the Rev2 with my other gear.


----------



## Argo Duck

Currawong has his, and has posted a tantalisingly brief but seemingly positive impression of the _amp. _Not so pleased with the dynamics of the SPDIF converter. olor1n is expecting his soon - an A/B with Lyr may be possible here.
   
  Go to the audio-gd-nfb-10 thread - sorry I haven't got a link handy
  
  Quote: 





grokit said:


> Has anyone tried the new NFB-10SE with the LCD-2? For the promo price it looks like a real contender.


----------



## Argo Duck

Looking forward to your final impressions m0gwai, good or bad.


----------



## geetarman49

I don't own an RWA product, nor have i ever listened to one...nor any of the other $$$$ hpa's.  however, Skylab is right on the money about the jj's.  i've had friends and acquaintances laud the small signal tube jj, but every type i've tried (including most recently e88cc goldpin) consistently imparts an abundant tonal coloration and effect that can accurately be labelled as rubbery... every impact... drum or otherwise, sounds just like a rubber mallet, a rubber sheet, ... that's just for starters...
   
  for your own mental sanity, get rid of the jj's and try any of the other tubes that skylab has suggested.... as opposed to spending $200+ on a tube, try nos ge, rca, sylvania, etc.  i also think that nos russian 6n23p from the 60's and 70's are great tubes that can be had for $ vice $$$.
  
  Quote: 





m0gwai said:


> I think you're right and it wouldn't be fair to make a final judgment before giving it a chance to perform to it's full potential. For my own mental sanity I decided to stay away from tube rolling since the never ending upgrade is driving me crazy enough ....


----------



## Argo Duck

I look forward to WillHughes' review. It seems achievable, given careful organisation and work, and sufficient time. If it fails, it will be educational about the difficulties of this kind of review. I don't think we should discourage the attempt.
   
  I recall some years ago Skylab compared several of Jan Meier's amps. Rob's comments on the complexity of the comparison and the care needed would be helpful for anyone undertaking a similar project imho.
   
  FWIW, I have been considering a careful review of my own current stable of 5 amps and two DACs - not because I want to present it on headfi (in fact, I don't!) - but to record what I hear before I start selling those I don't consider keepers. I don't want to rely on increasingly vague memories as time passes.
   
  So far, a busy life has prevented me starting. As one or two others have already suggested, it needs to be treated as a complete commitment so it can be given the concentration needed.
   
  Nevertheless, there's a big potential payback IMHO. Performing such a large survey at one time may reveal similarities and differences one might not otherwise notice.
   
  On a related note, a switch-box such as milosz built for his A/B (amp) comparisons here might be useful; certainly something I intend to do in my case!


----------



## oqvist

Quote: 





grokit said:


> Has anyone tried the new NFB-10SE with the LCD-2? For the promo price it looks like a real contender.


 


  Currawong probably has as mentioned. Hope to get my tomorrow... Has issues tracking down a balanced cable since Audeze for whatever reason put me on ignore. Will be busy with my HD 800 in the mean time.


----------



## LiqTenExp

I can suggest the NFB-10SE so far.  Check out some preliminary comparisons I did and some pictures.  Sound stage is broad and really places you within the music.  Way better than my NFB-12.  It is a good rival for the Lyr in my opinion.
   
http://www.head-fi.org/t/573478/audio-gd-nfb-10se-thread


----------



## tme110

the nfb-10es is quite good with the lcd-2 and I couldn't imagine the -10SE to be much different


----------



## oqvist

Quote: 





tme110 said:


> the nfb-10es is quite good with the lcd-2 and I couldn't imagine the -10SE to be much different


 


  Isn´t the ES using the sabre chip whereas the SE use Wolfson? Audio GD is not very good with labelling their products lol. But well I suppose they are both tuned to sound about the same.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





oqvist said:


> Isn´t the ES using the sabre chip whereas the SE use Wolfson? Audio GD is not very good with labelling their products lol. But well I suppose they are both tuned to sound about the same.


 

 The Audio GD products look very well made but I can never figure out what is going on with them when I go to the website.


----------



## Br777

Just sealed the deal on a legendary Cavalli Audio Stacker II which long time ortho and diy expert Sachu just described to me as more musical than the Liquid fire, and said he would take the stacker over a beta 22 anytime.
   
  needless to say that I'm quite excited about this amp.  I have owned a Cavalli CTH in the past and it was brilliant, and a fraction of the cost and quality of the Stacker II. 
   
  Hopefully i'll get a day or two to compare it to my RSA sr71b before i sell the 71B


----------



## sachu

whoa dude..while the stacker deserves all the accolades i give it, am no expert at anything. More like i solder wires together and hope for the best (as in no blue smoke ) lol


----------



## sachu

and yeah, listening to my stacker here (built by dbel84)..with the LCD-2 witht he CV-181 treasure tubes and a Gold Aero 5AR4...phenomenal!


----------



## Br777

modesty is a sure sign of expertise


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





oqvist said:


> Isn´t the ES using the sabre chip whereas the SE use Wolfson? Audio GD is not very good with labelling their products lol. But well I suppose they are both tuned to sound about the same.


 

 The Sabre 9018 is more revealing, it is explained on the discontinued ES page at least:
   
  "The NFB-10ES version applies the Sabre32 ES9018 chip, it has quite high fidelity, its sound signature is absolutely revealing, neutral and faithful and very detailed. It can show how good or how bad a recording is. If you are afraid of flaws being revealed in the music files, other gears like those applying WM8741 will be better. Our gears that apply WM8741 are designed to sound neutral and revealing but with a little smoothness. "
   
  The 8741 is the chip used in the Wolfson version.


----------



## Equus

Quote: 





br777 said:


> Just sealed the deal on a legendary Cavalli Audio Stacker II which long time ortho and diy expert Sachu just described to me as more musical than the Liquid fire, and said he would take the stacker over a beta 22 anytime.
> 
> needless to say that I'm quite excited about this amp.  I have owned a Cavalli CTH in the past and it was brilliant, and a fraction of the cost and quality of the Stacker II.
> 
> Hopefully i'll get a day or two to compare it to my RSA sr71b before i sell the 71B


 


 I'd say congratulations, but that would seem almost a conflict of interest since you're buying it from me.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Having a LF to compare this particular unit to, I'd have to say I agree that the Stacker is more musical.  The tipping point for me is that the LF still has musicality, but then adds the transparency and clarity.  I'm still going to miss the Stacker, but I really just don't see me using it much.  I also personally preferred the Stacker over the B22 I listened to, but I'm sure some people may think differently.  Funny thing, this subjective hobby we're in.  Heh.


----------



## SHAHZADA123

I recently acquired a Manley Stingray iTube and boy it makes the LCD-2 sing & DANCE 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Skylab has time and again raved about his Leben/LCD-2 combo and only NOW I can fully appreciate his experience. I'm  guessing it's the magic of the EL84 tubes.
  I was about to pull the trigger on the Cavalli LF when I chanced upon this beauty. And for $2600, almost unused (less than 50hrs), it was a steal.
  The LF will just have to wait.


----------



## WarriorAnt

You lucky dawg!  $2600!


----------



## SHAHZADA123

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> You lucky dawg!  $2600!


----------



## Clayton SF

Lucky, lucky dawg!

Doesn't the Manley Stingray iTube use something like 12 tubes? It does look like some powerhouse that's for sure!


----------



## SHAHZADA123

Yes it does have a total of 12 tubes.
Output Tubes: 8 x EL84
Driver Tubes: 2 x 6414 
Input Tubes: 2 x 12AT7EH 

Although it is very powerfull, it's ONE sweet sounding amp.

The LCD-2s have finally found their mate.
Grado GS 1000i sound stunning in Triode mode.


----------



## Clayton SF

Quote: 





shahzada123 said:


> Yes it does have a total of 12 tubes.
> Output Tubes: 8 x EL84
> Driver Tubes: 2 x 6414
> Input Tubes: 2 x 12AT7EH
> ...


 
  Having the option to switch between Triode and UltraLinear is certainly another bonus.


----------



## Argo Duck

Lucky dawg indeed! Congratulations. 12 tubes would be too many for me though - I thought long and hard before ordering the 4-tube Taboo 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  When you've had time to settle into your iTube, will you do a comparison with your WA22 and Lyr?
  
  Quote: 





shahzada123 said:


> Yes it does have a total of 12 tubes.
> Output Tubes: 8 x EL84
> Driver Tubes: 2 x 6414
> Input Tubes: 2 x 12AT7EH
> ...


----------



## swishbrade

.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





argo duck said:


> Lucky dawg indeed! Congratulations. 12 tubes would be too many for me though - I thought long and hard before ordering the 4-tube Taboo
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Did you get the taboo yet?


----------



## GMF2010

Balancing Act is shipping next week! Can't wait!


----------



## Kremer930

Not meaning to put the cat amongst the pigeons etc but has there been a consensus as to whether rev 1 or rev 2 are better? Once I have bought my Schiit statement amp and DAC I am going to grab a set of LCD2's but want to know which is seen as the best of two great cans? 

Hopefully by that time I will have cured that nasty upgradeitis. 

But doubt it.


----------



## Argo Duck

Not yet WA. I'm in the build queue, and can run a report any time to see how the queue's moving. Thinking of running a regression analysis (a statistical procedure) to figure out an accurate ETA (!)...gut feel I would say another 6-8 weeks
  
  Quote: 





> Did you get the taboo yet?


----------



## Radio_head

Quote: 





shahzada123 said:


> I recently acquired a Manley Stingray iTube and boy it makes the LCD-2 sing & DANCE
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Aww man, are you the one who bought the one signature sound had for sale on audiogon?


----------



## Argo Duck

Kremer930 you're brave to ask!
   
  The rev 1 is almost certainly only available 2nd hand.
   
  My impression is that of the _perhaps_ 20 (I didn't count) who tried both versions and reported on it, most felt rev 2 was better, but with several who strongly disagreed.
   
  It might be more accurate to say they have different characters. Both are highly capable, and more similar than they are different when compared to other 'phones.
   
  IIRC the rev 2 has been described as faster, retrieves more detail, slightly less close-up/intimate, more evenly balanced. In contrast, the rev 1 is usually noted for its stunning midrange especially with female and male vocals. Note I have only heard/own the rev 1.
   
  There's lots of much more reliable information than what I give above: look at the LCD-2 thread from late-June thru early August. Also take a look at MacedonianHero's comparison. It's listed first in the 'Recent articles' at the foot of this page.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





argo duck said:


> Not yet WA. I'm in the build queue, and can run a report any time to see how the queue's moving. Thinking of running a regression analysis (a statistical procedure) to figure out an accurate ETA (!)...gut feel I would say another 6-8 weeks


 


  Wow 6-8 weeks?   How can anything take so long to build?  Is Decware that busy?


----------



## googleli

Just got back from vacation and bought the iBasso DB2. My interconnects for the SR71B and the balanced cable for LCD2 should have arrived at my office.
   
  I believe the Esoteric K-01 -> BHSE -> SR009 combo is close to being the ultimate desktop headphone system. I have yet to order BHSE though, need them to resolve the time issue first - so far, just using the SRM727ii, the SR009 still beats the LCD2 hands down by miles.
   
  I also suspect my true balanced portable combo is close to the best portable headphone system, with the chain being:
   
  iPhone4 / iPad2 -> ALO iPhone USB interconnect -> CLAS -> Black Dragon short coaxial cable -> iBasso DB2 -> Black Dragon iBasso to SR71B balanced interconnect -> SR71B -> ALO AWG22 LCD2 Balanced Cable for SR71B -> LCD2
   
  Will test this out tomorrow - stay tuned.


----------



## Argo Duck

Yes they really are that busy. Lots of orders, many countries!
   
  All hand-built, no circuit boards, no fast production line stuff AFAIK.
   
  When they first notified me I was in the queue (14 Sep) I was at the bottom of page 5. There's about 13 orders per page, so I was about 65th in line. I moved up one page by 29 September.
   
  About one amp per calendar day then.
   
  They have many different models. Some (e.g. ZStage) are simple and must surely be quicker than others (e.g. the full-size Torii). I could confirm this with an appropriate test, but probably not worth the trouble. I reckon the Taboo's about average complexity and the amps ahead of mine average out about the same. As I now lie 48th, about 48 days to go before shipping.
   
  Think it'll be worth waiting for


----------



## Kremer930

You have just about the best of everything.  It is great to see someone with the ability and interest to bring together toys of these calibre.  Awesome.
   
  I am very much loving my portable rig at present.  I dont think that it has quite the same sense of space as full sized cans such as my HE6 but the bass is just incredible out of the JH16.
   
  Looking forward to your reviews.  Can I ask what the BHSE is?  Cheers
  
  Quote: 





googleli said:


> Just got back from vacation and bought the iBasso DB2. My interconnects for the SR71B and the balanced cable for LCD2 should have arrived at my office.
> 
> I believe the Esoteric K-01 -> BHSE -> SR009 combo is close to being the ultimate desktop headphone system. I have yet to order BHSE though, need them to resolve the time issue first - so far, just using the SRM727ii, the SR009 still beats the LCD2 hands down by miles.
> 
> ...


----------



## OzarkTom

Which amp are you buying, the Taboo?
   
  I wish I could make it to the Decware Zen Fest, maybe next year. I might watch the Fest some on the Net next weekend. Here is the website anyone can watch it from.
   
  http://decware.com/newsite/zenfest2011cam.html
   
   
  Quote: 





argo duck said:


> Yes they really are that busy. Lots of orders, many countries!
> 
> All hand-built, no circuit boards, no fast production line stuff AFAIK.
> 
> ...


----------



## SHAHZADA123

Quote: 





argo duck said:


> Lucky dawg indeed! Congratulations. 12 tubes would be too many for me though - I thought long and hard before ordering the 4-tube Taboo
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Thanks. Yes, I will try to do my best & and compare the Stingray with the WA22 and Lyr.

  
   


  Quote: 





radio_head said:


> Aww man, are you the one who bought the one signature sound had for sale on audiogon?


 
  Afraid not. I got mine locally (Dubai)
  Seems like there's another 'Lucky Dawg' out there.


----------



## swishbrade

googleli said:


> Just got back from vacation and bought the iBasso DB2. My interconnects for the SR71B and the balanced cable for LCD2 should have arrived at my office.
> 
> I believe the Esoteric K-01 -> BHSE -> SR009 combo is close to being the ultimate desktop headphone system. I have yet to order BHSE though, need them to resolve the time issue first - so far, just using the SRM727ii, the SR009 still beats the LCD2 hands down by miles.
> 
> ...




Looking forward to it!


----------



## Argo Duck

Thanks for the link!
   
  Yes, the taboo. One SS (Concerto atm), one hybrid (Lyr atm), one all valve amp (Taboo period) is the plan 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  Quote: 





ozarktom said:


> Which amp are you buying, the Taboo?
> 
> I wish I could make it to the Decware Zen Fest, maybe next year. I might watch the Fest some on the Net next weekend. Here is the website anyone can watch it from.
> 
> http://decware.com/newsite/zenfest2011cam.html


----------



## leesure

googleli said:


> I also suspect my true balanced portable combo is close to the best portable headphone system, with the chain being:
> 
> iPhone4 / iPad2 -> ALO iPhone USB interconnect -> CLAS -> Black Dragon short coaxial cable -> iBasso DB2 -> Black Dragon iBasso to SR71B balanced interconnect -> SR71B -> ALO AWG22 LCD2 Balanced Cable for SR71B -> LCD2
> 
> Will test this out tomorrow - stay tuned.




Depends how you define 'portable' The RWA balanced Isabellina is battery powered and 'portable' and offers the shortest fully balanced chain. I'd love to hear you rig against it.


----------



## OzarkTom

I was lookiing at the Taboo's website. Did you spend the extra $200 for the cap mods? I might order one after RMAF if I don't get anything out there.

  
  Quote: 





argo duck said:


> Thanks for the link!
> 
> Yes, the taboo. One SS (Concerto atm), one hybrid (Lyr atm), one all valve amp (Taboo period) is the plan


----------



## Argo Duck

^ Took the VCAP option yes. Thought I might regret it later if I didn't. That option only the cost of a week's groceries - who needs to eat?!


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





shahzada123 said:


> Thanks. Yes, I will try to do my best & and compare the Stingray with the WA22 and Lyr.


 

 Congrats on the Manley, I'm looking foreword to that comparison also.
   
   
  Quote: 





swishbrade said:


> Looking forward to it!


 

 X2, I would like to see some pictures of that _uber-_stack as well.


  Quote: 





leesure said:


> Depends how you define 'portable' The RWA balanced Isabellina is battery powered and 'portable' and offers the shortest fully balanced chain. I'd love to hear you rig against it.


 

 I would be surprised if the RWA didn't sound better, it would be an interesting comparison though. To me the RWA is more of an all-in-one desktop rig that happens to have a battery in it. IMO both are more transportable than portable.


----------



## googleli

OK - after two weeks of testing I think the following two "brick" combos are my favorite ones for the LCD2:
   
  1. iPhone4 -> CLAS -> SR71B (fully balanced cables except from input - DB2 cables to arrive next week)
   
  2. iPhone4 -> Fostex (Filter 1) -> Stepdance (15V regulated)
   
  Of course there are some other very good portable amps out there but I think the Stepance and SR71B are pretty much the best ones being on the top of Skylab's list. Those interested can certainly try out the ALO RX2 or Continental - based on my impressions velow.
   
  Generally speaking, the CLAS sounds cleaner and the Fostex sounds warmer, no matter which filter you use. Therefore, pair the CLAS with a dark or warm sounding amp, like the SR71A or SR71B. I tried pairing the CLAS with the Stepdance and the sound was just too clean and clinical for me. On the other hand, pairing the CLAS with either the SR71A and SR71B is a dream. With the SR71B you can add a DB2 in between to achieve a fully portable system, but of course that means one more brick. One more advantage of the CLAS - you can use a co-axial cable to connect it to the DB2 - there are more high end coaxial cables on the market than SPDIF cables - if you believe in the effect of digital cables at all.
   
  If you have a clean sounding portable amp like the Stepdance, the Fostex HP-P1 is a very good choice. The second combo above (HP-P1 - > Stepdance) produces a synergy which matches the CLAS->SR71A/B combo, IMO.
   
  At Filter 1 of the HP-P1, even with the very clean Stepdance amp, I detect a hint of graininess in the mid range which wasn't apparent when I used the CLAS. Using Filter 2, the graininess goes away, but there comes a very slightly recession in the mid trebles instead. I think it is just a sound signature and I don't think either of these is a problem which hinders enjoyment of music. 
   
  When I paired up the Fostex HP-P1 with either of the flagship RSA portables (71A or 71B), I feel that the "darkness" increased - so did the mid range graininess. I think the HP-P1 is not exactly a good match with darker amps like the 71A or 71B.  
   
  By the way, the internal amp of the Fostex is not capable of driving the LCD2 as good as any of the Stepdance and SR71A/B. 
   
  Just my 2 cents above - if I have to choose one combo only, I will probably pick the first one, but I believe either of them is the best "brick rigs" for the LCD2 .


----------



## Girls Generation

googleli said:


> OK - after two weeks of testing I think the following two "brick" combos are my favorite ones for the LCD2:
> 
> 1. iPhone4 -> CLAS -> SR71B (fully balanced cables except from input - DB2 cables to arrive next week)
> 
> ...




Nice mini-impression and comparison. 

Have you every considered the iBasso PB2 in the past?


----------



## dyl1dyl

Just popped of my order for the Littledot Mk6+, an amp that I believe has gotten less than it's fair share of attention here at headfi. Will be looking to post impressions on it versus the woo wa5 and schiit lyr once I get it.


----------



## Argo Duck

^


----------



## SHAHZADA123

I' like to try the LCD-2s with the speaker taps of my Stingray.
Am using the ALO 8 chain cable with 1/4 plug & would like to know if this cable adapter from ALO ( Miniwatt 1/4 to speaker adapter)
would be suitable.
Do'nt want to harm either amp or headphones.

Thanks in advance


----------



## m0gwai

This is the second part of my mini review of the Red Wine Audio Audeze Edition (RWA AE).
   
  My first impression, which you can find here (http://www.head-fi.org/t/495631/amp-recommendations-for-audeze-lcd-2/4050#post_7782148), left me somehow unimpressed with presentation offered by the RWA AE, it was however suggested that it would be wise to allow a proper burn-in period and to experiment with different tubes before making a final judgment on the product. As I mentioned before I never been a big believer of the burn-in theories, nor am I particularly fond of tube rolling but to quote skylab "I owned it to myself" to give the RWA AE its best chance to shine.
   
  I immediately placed an order for the recommended MULLARD CV2492 E88CC, around 95$ on eBay and started the burn-in process. I pretty much left the system running 24/7, playing pink noise, white noise, frequency sweeps and uncompressed music on random during the day/night and in the evening I continued my listening sessions, I took some short notes each evening just to make sure I could compare them from one day to the other, when writing this review the RWA AE is at around 250 hours mark and the Mullard tubes is at around 70 hours.
   
  Before I jump into the topic of burn-in and tube rolling, I want to discuss some generalities since I've spent a lot more time with the RWA AE, I have now a much better idea of its sound signature, what it does right and what it does wrong.
   
  First let me say the build quality is outstanding and it looks gorgeous, you really need to see it for yourself, it’s also much smaller than what I expected from the pictures. I never really cared for the semi steam-punk design of some tube amps on the other hand I always been a sucker for minimalistic design and the RWA AE really hits the spot. I’m not a big fan of the “touch” power button, it seems I always have to press it 2-3 time before I get it right, also one important thing to keep in mind is that the input switch is at the back, I know it’s made to keep the shortest signal path possible but if like me you keep switching between source you need to keep that in mind when placing it, so a rack for example is not a good idea, in my case I had to redo some wiring and change some of my cable which were too short.
   
  So now let’s talk about the sound and what I think of it after almost 2 weeks, the first thing that comes to my mind is neutrality and details, if that’s what you like then you should put the RWA AE on the top of your list, personally when considering those two elements alone it's the best my LCD-2 have ever sounded and I might even say this is the best any of my headphones have ever sounded. It can mean great things, give it a quality source and it will transcend it into something you think you never heard before but make the mistake of feeding it some compressed MP3 or some less than stellar recording and prepare your ears to cringe. There is no sugarcoating, what the RWA AE is offering you is pure honesty, it's looking at you in the eyes and telling you the truth but just like this one time when your wife asked you if her outfit made her look fat, sometime lying is nicer.
   
  Quote: 





> Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad. - Aldous Huxley


 
   
  I thought that this quote from Aldous Huxley was illustrating quite well my feeling towards the RWA AE, I almost exclusively listen to independent music, not by choice but simply by taste. I don't want to claim that all indie recording sound bad, that's certainly not true but in most cases they won't have the production value some more mainstream artist might, so that little band from Sweden, the one that make experimental rock in their basement you like so much, well don't expect it to sound too great, this is of course true for any amp but is particularly obvious on the RWA AE.
   
  I played extensively with the 2 DAC settings and found the non-oversampling setting (NOS) to be far more forgiving compared the 24bit/192khz. I mostly used the ‘high resolution’ DAC since most of the material is uncompressed however I noticed than in a few exception using the NOS settings would produce a more enjoyable sound, this is really trial and error and personal preference.
   
  I spent a bit of time testing the sound AC vs Battery and found the improvement in sound to be very subtle at least to me untrained ears, I found the treble to be a bit crisper and the background cleaner using the battery option but again it was minimal.
   
  To Summarize the above, the strength of the RWA AE are in my opinion a very neutral sound signature, amazing details retrieval and a pitch black background.
   
  Now let’s talk about the shortcomings, with the "JJ" (stock) tube the presentation was far too analytical for my taste, one might say even clinical/sterile, this was particularly evident on live music, so if what you like is classical music or jazz then I would look somewhere else, the Leben that I never owned but had on loan for an extended period of time performed  much better in this aspect, the RWA AE somehow failed to create this emotional involvement that I love so much in live music. I also wasn't impress by the 'punch' or the 'attack' the RWA AE was packing, call it tempo, rhythm or slam but not to be mistaken by power which it has plenty to drive the LCD-2 to it's full potential.
   
  I didn’t notice any significant change during the burn-in period, the amp kept the same sound signature but it got more refined, things felt a bit tighter but the RWA AE personality remained unchanged and I would qualify the effect of burn-in to be again minimal.
   
  I was pleasantly surprised by the Mullard tube, it’s exactly what the RWA AE needed, it added quite a bit of warmth to the sound, it extended the mid-range, transition were smoother and the treble crystal clear, however it did not improved the punch I thought was lacking and maybe it’s in my head but I feel the bass to be not as tight as it was with the stock tube, it’s not muddy but it wasn’t as clear, I didn’t really had the energy to start doing A/B testing. I think it’s a ‘shame’ that the stock tube sounds so bad especially for a product that expensive, I understand that availability is always an issue with NOS tube but I would at the very least offer different options to customer to get a unit delivered with an optimal tube.
   
  Writing this review and testing the RWA AE was an interesting experience, I learned about what I was truly looking for and that the pursuit of absolute neutrality might not be for me, Vinnie as a true gentleman accepted to let me return the amp under the 30 days trial policy which I will be doing shortly, for the future I think I will be looking at the RSA  Dark Star or maybe take a break and wait for some exciting new products t come out.
   
  Summary
   
  Positive
  - Impeccable build quality
  - Outstanding customer service
  - Neutral
  - Detailed
  - Honest
   
  Negative
  - Lacks punch
  - Too analytical/clinical (for my taste)
  - Needs a NOS tube to truly shine
  - Expensive
  - Unfortunately not the best my LCD-2 have ever sounded


----------



## SHAHZADA123

Nice write-up. Neutral & honest!
I was contemplating buying. Will wait & see now
At the moment I am enjoying the LCD-2s with my Stingray & it seems to have all the positives you mentioned about the RWA AE but with a lot of punch. 
Very involving & enjoyable experience IMHO


----------



## alvin sawdust

Quote: 





dyl1dyl said:


> Just popped of my order for the Littledot Mk6+, an amp that I believe has gotten less than it's fair share of attention here at headfi. Will be looking to post impressions on it versus the woo wa5 and schiit lyr once I get it.


 


  Looking forward to your impressions. Toyed with the idea of getting one myself but would have had to buy a balanced source also.


----------



## Argo Duck

Very informative and useful m0gwai. Excellent - thanks. Good luck finding the right amp for you.
   
  Shahzada123 your latest comment about the Stingray makes me look forward even more to your comparisons


----------



## SHAHZADA123

Am awaiting some tubes for both the Lyr & WA22.
In the meantime the Stingray will also be nicely burnt in.
Will do the comparison in a week to ten days.


----------



## tink97

Well just pulled the trigger on a Decware Mini Torii for my LCD-2.  Heh now all I have is the long wait time, but like they say all good things come to those who wait.  This amp I have wanted since it came out so i am pretty excited about it. I will leave a review of what I think about when I have had a chance to hear it for a bit.  But its going to be a few months away till then 
   
  Have a great day all
   
  tink97


----------



## Skylab

Congrats - it's a great pairing. While you wait, look on eBay for some black-plate Tung-Sol 12BH7A tubes, and some Sylvania 6V6G


----------



## tink97

Hey Skylab,
   
  Thank you for the tube recommendation, heh looks like the next few weeks I will be hunting some new tubes.


----------



## FinBenton

Been using my Audio-GD NFB-5 with my lcd's, so far Im liking this a lot, much better match up than audio-gd + HD600.


----------



## justie

just got my Lyr, 20 mintues in and i gotta say im lovin em alot  back to my music!


----------



## boirefish

I'm really torn between getting an NFB-10SE or Lyr. I currently have a matrix mini-i with my LCD-2's which has a decent DAC, but the amp section is a bit lacking.


----------



## drez

someone on the 10SE thread had both NFB-10 SE and Lyr, but no LCD-2.


----------



## boirefish

Quote: 





drez said:


> someone on the 10SE thread had both NFB-10 SE and Lyr, but no LCD-2.


 


  Oh yeah? What did they say about the two? I've scouted the 10SE thread, the NFB-10 thread and the LCD/LCD amp recommendation threads without a solid conclusion, but I think the best thing to do for now is give it some time..


----------



## drez

I think this is the post.


----------



## boirefish

Thanks for the heads up - is the 10ES very similar/identical to the 10SE? because on that thread they're discussing the ES, but I personally know little about what the differences between 10, 10ES, 10SE and 10WM are


----------



## tme110

They are all similar enough.  The -10ES was the most expensive at around $900 (though I don't remember the exact cost) and was the saber32 version of the three.  The -SE is the newer version of the -WM but in a cheaper, lighter case, automated assembly and I think some part changes but with the added digital filters (which I'm sure I'd never play with) and the screen.  It a very nice set up and I thought the original -10 was the best deal in headfi and then one came out that was half the price.


----------



## coolcat

I would recommend M3.
  Yesterday I tried the rev2 + ALO Salt n Pepper Cable + M3 ,the source was Ayre QB9.
  This combination sound really wonderfull. The M3 is not quite expensive,but the ALO cable seems to be a bit pricey,anyway the cable worth every cent .


----------



## boirefish

Quote: 





tme110 said:


> They are all similar enough.  The -10ES was the most expensive at around $900 (though I don't remember the exact cost) and was the saber32 version of the three.  The -SE is the newer version of the -WM but in a cheaper, lighter case, automated assembly and I think some part changes but with the added digital filters (which I'm sure I'd never play with) and the screen.  It a very nice set up and I thought the original -10 was the best deal in headfi and then one came out that was half the price.


 

 Good to hear. Now it's just a matter of how well the dac section stacks with current offerings. I'm guessing it's in the cambridge audio, or even yulong d100 range?


----------



## Argo Duck

IIRC olor1n has Lyr, the new audiogd-10, and LCD2. Also take careful note of Currawong's comments about the SPDIF. Also, the DAC uses the same chips as Jan Meier's StageDAC, with the same filter-settings offered. Of course, the implementation may be quite different, but FWIW I now prefer Jan's DAC with my speaker system (clean, neutral, great dynamic reach), with the Sabre32-based MiniMax DAC a more lively source for my two preferred headphone amps (Lyr & Concerto ATM).
   
  olor1n appears to like the 10, but (IIRC) did find the Lyr more forgiving on lower-fi material. He/she also had some volume issues, as in the LCD2 gets loud with very little of the volume range used. May be olor1n's particular unit - early manufacturing inconsistencies? - as currawong didn't seem to have this issue. Anyway, you should re-check the threads, as I've only been half-reading them.
   
  TBH, I can't imagine you'd be disappointed with the Lyr OR the new audio-gd based on comments to date. Doubtless it's the sound you're trying to pin down. Smoothness and transparency would seem to be the audio-gd highlights. The Lyr's no slouch there either and sits high in Skylab's round-up of tube amps.
   
  Of course, it's tube-rollable. Except, many of the recommended NOS tubes (e.g. Lorenz 3-mica) seem to have been snapped up!


----------



## LiqTenExp

Quote: 





drez said:


> someone on the 10SE thread had both NFB-10 SE and Lyr, but no LCD-2.


 


  I have all three (LCD-2 Rev 1).  My comments are in the first few posts of the NFB-10SE thread I started.


----------



## olor1n

I have all three (LCD-2 Rev 2).  My comments are in the first few pages of the NFB-10SE thread LiqTenExp started. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Quote: 





liqtenexp said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## cAsE sEnSiTiVe

You can add a VTL IT-85 integrated to the list of amps that sound glorious with, and can drive the Audez'e to wonderful aplomb!
   
  It's the best I've heard from the LCD-2 rev 2's thus far. My b22 is out on loaner, so I eagerly await a showdown between the two. My WA6 was personally hotrodded by Jamato, and sounds great with the Audez'e, but doesn't quite have enough ooomph to compete with the VTL.....and sounds slightly strained and closed-in as a result in comparison. 
   
  If I was still using the stock cable, things might be a bit too dark & meaty for me, but with Steve's Q Audio cabling, it is truly a sublime combination.
   
  What you hear from the headphone jack is exactly what you hear from the speaker taps. Volume knob is barely at 12 o'clock, and it's all I want/need.
   
  A couple of pluses for me is it has a remote control for volume, and I now have an amp with perfect synergy to drive my Martin Logan's.
   
  Anyway, off for some listening.....and then some possible tube rolling.


----------



## olor1n

Quote: 





argo duck said:


> IIRC olor1n has Lyr, the new audiogd-10, and LCD2. Also take careful note of Currawong's comments about the SPDIF. Also, the DAC uses the same chips as Jan Meier's StageDAC, with the same filter-settings offered. Of course, the implementation may be quite different, but FWIW I now prefer Jan's DAC with my speaker system (clean, neutral, great dynamic reach), with the Sabre32-based MiniMax DAC a more lively source for my two preferred headphone amps (Lyr & Concerto ATM).
> 
> olor1n appears to like the 10, but (IIRC) did find the Lyr more forgiving on lower-fi material. He/she also had some volume issues, as in the LCD2 gets loud with very little of the volume range used. May be olor1n's particular unit - early manufacturing inconsistencies? - as currawong didn't seem to have this issue. Anyway, you should re-check the threads, as I've only been half-reading them.
> 
> ...


 
   
   
_Quick comparison using (alac):_
   

 _Summertime Clothes - Animal Collective_
 _Soft Shock - Yeah Yeah Yeahs_
 _The Sound of Muzak - Porcupine Tree_
 
  
  The NFB-10SE sounds like the Lyr with flavour of the month Lorenz Stuttgart tubes. This is single ended, volume matched with a meter and with the NFB-10SE dac feeding the Lyr. The presentation from both is balanced across the spectrum, airy and transparent. There's a distinct sense of depth that has great synergy with the LCD-2's ability to resolve.
   
  To split hairs, I'd say bass is more taut on the SE, although extension is about the same. On the Lyr, bass is slightly smeared in comparison, with a bit more weight. This may give the sense the Lyr is more dynamic but I don't think that's the case on closer inspection (like I said, hair splitting). Overall the Lyr is a touch smoother and is therefore more forgiving of lesser recordings. The flip-side is that the NFB-10SE is more detailed. This should not be construed as cold and clinical.
   
  People looking at bang for buck should have the NFB-10SE on their list. With the LCD-2 single ended, the NFB-10SE is comparable to the Lyr. The gap is widened when you consider the SE's promotional price, the balanced output (that I've yet to test), and the fact it also serves as a fine dac.


----------



## Argo Duck

Great comparison olor1n - very useful. Cheers!
   
  (I'm _almost_ tempted)


----------



## boirefish

Quote: 





argo duck said:


> Great comparison olor1n - very useful. Cheers!
> 
> (I'm _almost_ tempted)


 


  only almost =P?


----------



## Argo Duck

Well, ya know, almost is "nearly there"!
   
  TBH, the many options audio-gd offer is not good for me. I took a _long_ time to decide between Decware's _two_ options the minitorii and the taboo 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 OTOH, I respect those who've given listening impressions of the SE so far, and now consider it a real SS option.
   
  You've ordered yours right - when I replied here yesterday I hadn't caught up with the NFB10 thread.


----------



## Frihed89

I just had an interesting experience.  I changed the tubes in my Audio Note CD 4.1x from various Amperex ECC88s to Telefunken ECC88s amd E188CCs, and the Audeze loved them.  So did my speakers.  So did my ears.  Heretofor, the LCD's lacked character and sounded "incoherent".  I think the fact that the Telefunkens have enormous bass, plus a lot of everything else helps the LCD-2s all around.  It also seems to work well with the Norse cables that are a little dark, but that is an asset with these Telfunken tubes. 
   
  Just goes to show: everything is connected to everything else.


----------



## santacore

I've recently had the pleasure of checking out Donald Norths (DNA Audio) forthcoming 2A3 based amp. This latest version of his prototype is sounding fantastic with my LCD-2's. It takes everything I loved about the Sonett(which I previously owned) and super changed it. Greater power, wonderful dynamics, nice bass, and above all musical. I can't wait to try out this amp with some of my other phones. If you're in Los Angeles and are able to attend a meet that Donald is at, I highly recommend giving this amp a listen.


----------



## Currawong

Quick thoughts (since brought it up): I think if you get the NFB-10SE, get the DIR9001 input module. The WM8805 makes the unit sound a bit flat or dull. However, it's definitely a bargain, as even in pretty much the worst arrangement possible (optical input, random cheap power cord out of my drawer plugged into a board with a bunch of computer gear) the sound isn't _that_ far behind my main rig (see my profile). I've only run the LCD-2s balanced out of it though.
   
  At present, my preferred amp is the Stacker II (which is kind of moot, as there are only a handful of them in existence) with a Tung-Sol driver and Sylvania 12SN7s. The amp tends to give headphones a slight kick in the bass and is only a little behind the Phoenix in refinement and detail, but has that touch of musicality that rounds everything out.  I think the LCD-2s do work well with nothing-but-the-facts-ma'am SS amps though regardless.


----------



## boirefish

currawong said:


> Quick thoughts (since brought it up): I think if you get the NFB-10SE, get the DIR9001 input module. The WM8805 makes the unit sound a bit flat or dull. However, it's definitely a bargain, as even in pretty much the worst arrangement possible (optical input, random cheap power cord out of my drawer plugged into a board with a bunch of computer gear) the sound isn't _that_ far behind my main rig (see my profile). I've only run the LCD-2s balanced out of it though.
> 
> At present, my preferred amp is the Stacker II (which is kind of moot, as there are only a handful of them in existence) with a Tung-Sol driver and Sylvania 12SN7s. The amp tends to give headphones a slight kick in the bass and is only a little behind the Phoenix in refinement and detail, but has that touch of musicality that rounds everything out. I think the LCD-2s do work well with nothing-but-the-facts-ma'am SS amps though regardless.




I just managed to snatch up a sophia princess'd WA6, so once both of these beauties arrive, I'd be glad to do a comparison, despite the lesser power the wa6 has  hoping quality > quantity will justify my purchases at the end of the day


----------



## Frihed89

Quote: 





santacore said:


> I've recently had the pleasure of checking out Donald Norths (DNA Audio) forthcoming 2A3 based amp. This latest version of his prototype is sounding fantastic with my LCD-2's. It takes everything I loved about the Sonett(which I previously owned) and super changed it. Greater power, wonderful dynamics, nice bass, and above all musical. I can't wait to try out this amp with some of my other phones. If you're in Los Angeles and are able to attend a meet that Donald is at, I highly recommend giving this amp a listen.


 

 That's nice to know.  I also wish I could attend RMAF and listen to Craig's 2A3 amp.  I hope there are some reports from members here.


----------



## Windsor

Quote: 





currawong said:


> At present, my preferred amp is the Stacker II (which is kind of moot, as there are only a handful of them in existence) with a Tung-Sol driver and Sylvania 12SN7s. The amp tends to give headphones a slight kick in the bass and is only a little behind the Phoenix in refinement and detail, but has that touch of musicality that rounds everything out.  *I think the LCD-2s do work well with nothing-but-the-facts-ma'am SS amps though regardless.*


 

 I still really enjoy the LCD-2 with the Lavry DA-10, which is definitely an auditorially-factual-sounding DAC/Amp to my ears. I'd like to try that combo with another aftermarket cable though, but not a cable that makes music sound as bright as the ALO ref 8 silver/copper cable I tried with the rev2/DA-10.


----------



## Girls Generation

Would it be silly having the LCD3 paired solely with a portable rig?


----------



## Windsor

Quote: 





girls generation said:


> Would it be silly having the LCD3 paired solely with a portable rig?


 
   
  Not if you enjoy it and it brings you aural pleasure.


----------



## googleli

GG, I am quite happy with my portable rig with LCD2 now and use it for casual listening in the office - this goes a long way if you see what I was using with the LCD2 at home (see my signature block). I don't think the CLAS and SR71B are a close match to my home rig, but they are still very satisfying.
   
  I doubt if anyone tried it, but I actually find that the sound of LCD2 directly driven by iPhone 4 to be acceptable, although certainly inferior to any of my rigs - again it shows how good the LCD2 is adaptive to sources and amps - and the better your gear is, you can expect more from the LCD2.


----------



## Windsor

Quote:


googleli said:


> GG, I am quite happy with my portable rig with LCD2 now and use it for casual listening in the office - this goes a long way if you see what I was using with the LCD2 at home (see my signature block). I don't think the CLAS and SR71B are a close match to my home rig, but they are still very satisfying.
> 
> I doubt if anyone tried it, but I actually find that the sound of LCD2 directly driven by iPhone 4 to be acceptable, although certainly inferior to any of my rigs - again it shows how good the LCD2 is adaptive to sources and amps - and the better your gear is, you can expect more from the LCD2.


 

 The LCD-2 from my iPhone has always sounded more than acceptable to me, but I would never use the LCD-2 as an on-the-go headphone.


----------



## dagothur

The LCD-2 are some of the least portable headphones out there excluding electrostats.  They're heavy, measure 40 mega-sheldons on the dorkoscope, and they're completely open.


----------



## googleli

I don't use the LCD2 for portable but I bring it to vacation and trips with me. In such a case, bringing a "portable" DAC->Amp combo is ok IMO. For portable use I just use iPhone 4 -> UE18 Pro / Westone ES5.


----------



## Girls Generation

The thing is, it was acceptable at $1000 to pair it with the best portable solution. However, the LCD-3 being $2000, and more higher-end, wouldn't it be just silly to just use it with a portable rig? I don't have the resources or the ability to get a desktop amp. I travel and move around too much, and I'm probably at home 4-6 hours a day for sleep only. It's going to be LCD2+ES5 vs. LCD3. Looking forward to impressions tomorrow! I'll be sitting at the edge of my seat while hitting the refresh button 1million times/second...


----------



## googleli

Sorry GG, I thought that was a typo and I wasn't aware that there is indeed an LCD-3 coming out until your latest post.
   
  I don't know whether it is silly to pair the LCD-3 and use it with a portable rig, but I will definitely buy the LCD-3 and try it on mine, since my portable rig is readily available. But of course, I will use it at home first and use it with my higher end gear.
   
  Thanks for the exciting news - I used to just follow my own subscribed threads and rarely look at the main forum. I really wasn't aware about the LCD-3 until now!
   
  Since you already have the ES5, the best way is to wait a bit and wait for LCD-3 reviews to come out before making a judgment. But then if LCD-3 is considered better, by all means go for it. If you chose the LCD-2, you will be itched to death wanting to buy the LCD-3 the moment your LCD-2 arrives. The LCD-2 is IMO the best current-production non-electrostat headphone, but who knows what Audeze can achieve with the LCD-3.


----------



## Pudu

dagothur said:


> ...They're heavy, measure 40 mega-sheldons on the dorkoscope, ...








Discussing the merits of a phone about which the only thing known is a single picture and a price tag. You gotta love Head-fi. 

Well I'll add to the ludicrousosity of the discussion by pointing out that the cans physically look very samey to the LCD-2. So if you don't think the LCD-2 is silly as a portable why not the next version too.


----------



## goofyvic

girls generation said:


> The thing is, it was acceptable at $1000 to pair it with the best portable solution. However, the LCD-3 being $2000, and more higher-end, wouldn't it be just silly to just use it with a portable rig? I don't have the resources or the ability to get a desktop amp. I travel and move around too much, and I'm probably at home 4-6 hours a day for sleep only. It's going to be LCD2+ES5 vs. LCD3. Looking forward to impressions tomorrow! I'll be sitting at the edge of my seat while hitting the refresh button 1million times/second...




Well I don't see any problem so long as you enjoy the music.


----------



## Girls Generation

Well, the efficiency of the LCD3 is still 91db which means I'll still be able to drive it adequately with the SR71B. So, maybe it won't be THAT silly after all, though I would imagine this situation to be similar to driving a Lamborghini with regular gas and cheap tires, or having an authentic Louis Vuitton while wearing a tshirt and sweats... Silly


----------



## googleli

If the LCD3 turns out to be much better than the LCD2, I will consider resetting my office rig. Probably get a decent DAC like the Zodiac Gold with Voltikus and a good desktop amp, maybe the Dark Star. My Esoteric K-01 and Leben CS300XS combo is a bit too much for office use.


----------



## dagothur

Quote: 





pudu said:


> Discussing the merits of a phone about which the only thing known is a single picture and a price tag. You gotta love Head-fi.


 
  Well I was talking about the LCD-2, which I own and listen to several hours a day.


----------



## Pudu

dagothur said:


> Well I was talking about the LCD-2, which I own and listen to several hours a day.




Yes, my comment wasn't directed at you at all.

It was directed towards the conversation about LCD-3s being a good portable solution - in the _Amps for LCD-2_ thread.




I was just enjoying your dorkoscope readings. Still liking it!


----------



## Argo Duck

^ Dagothur I couldn't understand Pudu's response to you at first. Now I think he was responding to googleli in the post right above and quoted you to add weight to his response. It was ambiguous quoting...!


----------



## Pudu

argo duck said:


> ^ Dagothur I couldn't understand Pudu's response to you at first. Now I think he was responding to googleli in the post right above and quoted you to add weight to his response. It was ambiguous quoting...!






Apologies all around. See above.. um above.




 40 mega-sheldons ...


----------



## Argo Duck

No problem - you clarified 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Yep, 40 mega-sheldons LOL


----------



## Ezekiel33

Hey guys!
   
  I need some advices for my incoming purchases!
  I'm about to buy the LCD-2 headphones and I want to buy a [DAC/AMP/PRE-AMP] combo all-in-a-box device to keep my setup minimalist and simple  
  I want to be able to drive with beauty the LCD-2, while also beeing able to use it as a very good DAC/PRE-AMP for my future power amplifier + passive speakers !!!
   
  I've found 3 products that could do that so far :
  - Benchmark DAC1 PRE
  - Burson HA-160D
  - Grace m903
   
  Can someone tell me what's my best option for my needs, knowing I dont want to spend more than 2k for that product and that I want to keep it simple?
   
  thanks a lot guys!!! 
   
  cant wait the experiment!!!


----------



## googleli

From my audition of the three, I much prefer Grace and Burson to the Benchmark. The ultimate preamp/headphone amp I have heard is still the Accuphase C3800 preamp though, but of course that is something quite different...


----------



## leesure

Add the Red Wine Audio Isabellina HPA to you list


----------



## Ezekiel33

thanks for the feedback guys!!
  Is the price of the Accuphase C3800 really 20K... even my car doenst cost that much 
   
  So Burson and Grace over the benchmark? That's good to know! After having read in the stereophile magasine that the benchmark was rated Class A I tought there wasnt a better piece of equipment for the price
   
  so my option are  Burson, Grace, or a used red wine isabellina HPA  
   
  "googleli" which one of the grace or burson did you prefer?


----------



## winzzz

never heard the luxman da200 myself but it seems promising,you might wanna add da200 to your list too...if i were looking for an amp/dac combo the luxman would be my top priority...


----------



## Ezekiel33

Quote: 





winzzz said:


> never heard the luxman da200 myself but it seems promising,you might wanna add da200 to your list too...if i were looking for an amp/dac combo the luxman would be my top priority...


 


  hey looks damn sweet! now I have way too many choices lol!! does the luxman da200 also have a pre-amp section that I can use with a power amp?
  it's a little over 2k but it looks so elegant.. for now the choice is hard.. both the Grace and Luxman look fabulous... I'll have to make a choice


----------



## googleli

I prefer the Grace 903, the Burson is a bit darker so if you have a Rev 1 go for the Grace and if you have Rev 2 maybe go for Burson. These are my opinions only - nothing beats having a listen for yourself.
  
  Quote: 





ezekiel33 said:


> thanks for the feedback guys!!
> Is the price of the Accuphase C3800 really 20K... even my car doenst cost that much
> 
> So Burson and Grace over the benchmark? That's good to know! After having read in the stereophile magasine that the benchmark was rated Class A I tought there wasnt a better piece of equipment for the price
> ...


----------



## familiarsounds

Have tried the DAC-200 against the Burson 160D. Go with the Burson. The DAC-200 doesn't have the clarity for me. It does have pretty rate sampling display. Has that Nextel coat stuff like Violectric V200.


----------



## kingice10

Hi guys I have tried earlier today the NUForce Icon HDP DAC connected to the Lyr from a Local Shop here, and I found it quite unsatisfying. Though the bass and mids were excellent but the treble is a bit smoothen out when I heard it. Then I hooked the NUForce HDP to the Asgard, and the sound is better for me (though I had some problems with some songs lacking in bass quality).
   
  Now I'd like to ask if you have experiencing pairing DAC to AMP from a laptop or an Ipod, which desktop DAC should be better for Lyr?


----------



## googleli

I think more detailed DACs pair quite well with tube amps in general. Try the Antelope Zodiac Gold with Voltikus power supply module, or failing that the Zodiac plus. They are very impressive - more so than the Weiss DAC202 I'd say. If I hadn't got the Esoteric K-01 already, I would have gone for the Zodiac Gold.


----------



## dagothur

The Nuforce doesn't pair well with the Lyr because the Lyr tends to compensate for a lack of dynamic energy.  The Nuforce provides that in kind, so there's little improvement in the sound.  It provides plenty of detail, but they're just not a good combo.


----------



## kingice10

Thanks for the suggestions @googleli...now, for the search on a local dealer of Antelope Audio.


----------



## Windsor

Quote:


ezekiel33 said:


> Hey guys!
> 
> I need some advices for my incoming purchases!
> I'm about to buy the LCD-2 headphones and I want to buy a [DAC/AMP/PRE-AMP] combo all-in-a-box device to keep my setup minimalist and simple
> ...


 
   
  The Lavry DA10 or DA11 may be worth considering.


----------



## TigzStudio

Quote: 





kingice10 said:


> Thanks for the suggestions @googleli...now, for the search on a local dealer of Antelope Audio.


 


  I second giving the Antelope (Zodiac+ or Gold) a listen in your system.  It has yet to be dethroned in my favorite rig in regards to transparency (tested at least seven other $1,000 to $3,000 range sources since owning the Antelope).  I also listen to the rig with the Antelope pretty much everyday since I have had it (since release). 
   
  In regards to the headphone amp out on the Zodiac+/Gold, it is very listenable with the LCD-2's....however a separate amp is a necessity to realize the true potential of the LCD-2, in my opinion.


----------



## rydenfan

I own the Zodiac+ with the Voltikus power supply and also highly recommend it. 
   
  My friend listened to the LCD2's today with the Woo WA6 and loved it. Anyone else have experience with this combo. I currently own both theBurson and the Lyr but am looking at either a WA6SE or the Decware MiniTorri. So far I prer the Burson to the Lyr. I find the Lyr more powerful sounding but somewhat congested.


----------



## cAsE sEnSiTiVe

Quote: 





rydenfan said:


> I own the Zodiac+ with the Voltikus power supply and also highly recommend it.
> 
> My friend listened to the LCD2's today with the Woo WA6 and loved it. Anyone else have experience with this combo. I currently own both theBurson and the Lyr but am looking at either a WA6SE or the Decware MiniTorri. So far I prer the Burson to the Lyr. I find the Lyr more powerful sounding but somewhat congested.


 


  I have a WA6 that I've used with the LCD-2. It matches well, but is still 3rd banana here and as a result doesn't see a lot of time with it.


----------



## Argo Duck

Can't tell from your forum activity but have you looked through the tube-rolling thread for the Lyr? Especially the last 20-30 pages?
   
  Whilst Lyr isn't always my favorite with the LCD2 (more accurately, I keep going back and forth between Lyr and Concerto, perverse though some find this!), it's a *very* capable amp that definitely responds to rolling. You might easily rid it of congestion.
   
  OTOH, judging from reports, you'd definitely enjoy the MiniTorii or WA6SE
  Quote: 





rydenfan said:


> I own the Zodiac+ with the Voltikus power supply and also highly recommend it.
> 
> My friend listened to the LCD2's today with the Woo WA6 and loved it. Anyone else have experience with this combo. I currently own both theBurson and the Lyr but am looking at either a WA6SE or the Decware MiniTorri. So far I prer the Burson to the Lyr. I find the Lyr more powerful sounding but somewhat congested.


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





rydenfan said:


> I own the Zodiac+ with the Voltikus power supply and also highly recommend it.
> 
> My friend listened to the LCD2's today with the Woo WA6 and loved it. Anyone else have experience with this combo. I currently own both theBurson and the Lyr but am looking at either a WA6SE or the Decware MiniTorri. So far I prer the Burson to the Lyr. I find the Lyr more powerful sounding but somewhat congested.


 
   
  What tubes are you using with the Lyr? It responds very much to tube changes. With the right tubes, I preferred the Lyr over both the Burson and Concerto.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> What tubes are you using with the Lyr? It responds very much to tube changes. With the right tubes, I preferred the Lyr over both the Burson and Concerto.


 


  What are your favorite tubes for the Lyr and LCD combo?


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> What are your favorite tubes for the Lyr and LCD combo?


 

 Several...I like the GE 6BZ7s with my HE-6s and they're pretty good too with the LCD-2s. I'm a big fan of the Genelax Gold Lions and Mullard CV2492s as well.


----------



## HiGHFLYiN9

Has anyone tried the Millett Jonokuchi or Bottlehead S.E.X. with the Audeze LCD-2? Both employ output transformers, so I was curious if they were up to the task of driving them.


----------



## adydula

GE 6BZ7's are very, very good with the Lyr...
   
  One of the highest gain tubes....
   
  I also have a mathced set of EH6922's that are also very nice with the LYR.
   
  Alex


----------



## leesure

I have a bottle head SEX modded to run off the speaker taps. Sounds amazing. When I want warm lush tubey sound it's my to to amp.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Liquid Fire or RSA Dark Star for the LCD-2?


----------



## Thenarus

Maxvla had a very thorough write-up from CanJam in which he claimed the Dark Star was the best he'd heard with it.  Skylab praised the pairing as well, though he preferred the Leben CS-300 for being more holographic and slightly less forward.  Hope this helps!


----------



## jax

Just back from RMAF/CanJam.  I spent more time in the RMAF side since I'm far more interested in speakers, but did have a chance to sit down at the Audeze table and listen to the three amps they had to demonstrate their LCD-3's with.  My brief impressions were that the Liquid Fire narrowly edged out Eddie Current's 2A3 amp, and both easily bested the Red Wine which just did not grab me, sounding just a bit grainy in the mids, while the other two were smooth as silk.  I still thought the combination of LCD2's with the Balancing Act was just astoundingly good an would have loved to compare that more directly, but they were at Craig's booth.  To be fair to my impressions; all three amps at the Audeze table were using different front ends, though I was able to listen to the same music on each of them.  But the differences could easily be attributed to the front end and or synergy.  So take them with a grain of salt.  LCD-3's were certainly wonderful and an improvement in a veil-lifting kind of way, which, after living with LCD-2's for over a year now I would never have thought possible.  Are they worth the $1k additional premium?  I guess that's up to you.


----------



## HiGHFLYiN9

Quote: 





leesure said:


> I have a bottle head SEX modded to run off the speaker taps. Sounds amazing. When I want warm lush tubey sound it's my to to amp.


 
  Great to know, thanks!


----------



## WNBC

If it was up to you, are you going for the LCD-3?
  
  Quote: 





jax said:


> LCD-3's were certainly wonderful and an improvement in a veil-lifting kind of way, which, after living with LCD-2's for over a year now I would never have thought possible.  Are they worth the $1k additional premium?  I guess that's up to you.


----------



## pp312

I'm just so glad the LCD-3 are so expensive. It mercifully removes them right out of the line of temptation for me, and I can settle back and thoroughly enjoy my LCD-2 Rev1 again. Ah, bliss...ignorant bliss...


----------



## jax

wnbc said:


> If it was up to you, are you going for the LCD-3?




Fair question. The short answer is no. I'm a speaker guy and headphones are a stopgap for the times I cannot use my speaker rig. If headphones were my only means of listening I might consider it much more seriously, and very likely would go for the 3.


----------



## Girls Generation

I'm going to be using the LCD2 with my iPhone headphone out (until the ALO MK3 comes out). Win or fail?


----------



## Windsor

Quote: 





girls generation said:


> I'm going to be using the LCD2 with my iPhone headphone out (until the ALO MK3 comes out). Win or fail?


 

 I'd say Win, GG. You are privileged enough to have an iPhone and LCD-2 - wonderful. I've enjoyed music with my rev2 fed directly of my iPhone and to be honest, there wasn't that much difference in sound between that combo and my laptop/Lavry DA10/rev2 combo with the same tracks. 
   
  Wishing you health to enjoy the LCD-2.


----------



## rydenfan

Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> What tubes are you using with the Lyr? It responds very much to tube changes. With the right tubes, I preferred the Lyr over both the Burson and Concerto.


 


   
  I am using the GE 6BZ7's that I ordered the amp with. It is a very nice amp but as I said I just am not getting the instrument separation as I get with the Burson, congestion is the best ways can describe it. I love the power and subsequent headroom it provides but I don't find myself as enamoured as others. I was surprised my friend so adamantly preffered the WA6 as RMAF. I may look to roll in some nicer tubes but am just cautious about spending too much until I decide I want to keep it. I appreciate the help very much!


----------



## fabio-fi

Quote: 





girls generation said:


> I'm going to be using the LCD2 with my iPhone headphone out (until the ALO MK3 comes out). Win or fail?


 


  Killer combo i say. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Is there a release date for the MK3?


----------



## Girls Generation

fabio-fi said:


> Killer combo i say.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Ken says January.
Becoming skeptical. MKII was not for the LCD2. Will MKIII be? :| That is my question to answer before the end of next week. Mission is a go.




windsor said:


> I'd say Win, GG. You are privileged enough to have an iPhone and LCD-2 - wonderful. I've enjoyed music with my rev2 fed directly of my iPhone and to be honest, there wasn't that much difference in sound between that combo and my laptop/Lavry DA10/rev2 combo with the same tracks.
> 
> Wishing you health to enjoy the LCD-2.




Sweet.  Thanks!


----------



## fabio-fi

Quote: 





girls generation said:


> Ken says January.
> Becoming skeptical. MKII was not for the LCD2. Will MKIII be? :| That is my question to answer before the end of next week. Mission is a go.
> Sweet.
> 
> ...


 


  Awesome, i would like to know as well.


----------



## Ultrainferno

I unfortunately don't have the time to read 281 pages so I was wondering if there was a gerenal consensus or a list of top 5-10 solid state amps for the lcd-2 (under $1K). Thanks for the help/info


----------



## jax

Quote: 





ultrainferno said:


> I unfortunately don't have the time to read 281 pages so I was wondering if there was a gerenal consensus or a list of top 5-10 solid state amps for the lcd-2 (under $1K). Thanks for the help/info


 

 At the top of your short list: Violectric V181 and V200


----------



## nigeljames

Quote: 





ultrainferno said:


> I unfortunately don't have the time to read 281 pages so I was wondering if there was a gerenal consensus or a list of top 5-10 solid state amps for the lcd-2 (under $1K). Thanks for the help/info


 


  A consensus on head-fi, not very likely!


----------



## Argo Duck

Agree with Jax' Violectric recommendations. The V100 might deserve mention too - it has the power though not the refinement of the other two.
   
  KWKarth thought well of the Schiit Asgard in the early days - he might chime in if this has changed.
   
  Jan Meier's forthcoming Classic - about one month away from release; specs up soon; prototype review coming from Skylab soon - will be worth placing on the list, especially if it has more power than his Concerto. Concerto was thought by some to pair well, whereas others thought its power too low (max I 500mA; max V 10 with 4V input, peak power about 1.7W with suitable input into an LCD2).
   
  Early reports of the (introductory price) $499 AudioGD NFB10SE (built-in DAC; balanced as well as single-ended) are enthusiastic; other AudioGD amps e.g. recent C2 would similarly be recommended I suspect.
   
  Burson HA160 - not sure of price but think it's sub-1000
   
  I'm sure there's a few I've forgotten - try searching for Skylab's round-up of (22?) SS amps too...
   
  Edit: only after did I think to read your profile - of course you already know how the Burson 160D and V100 sound!


----------



## Paganini Alfredo

Quote: 





ultrainferno said:


> I unfortunately don't have the time to read 281 pages so I was wondering if there was a gerenal consensus or a list of top 5-10 solid state amps for the lcd-2 (under $1K). Thanks for the help/info


 


  Just get a Lyr and fogeddabouddit.


----------



## Girls Generation

paganini alfredo said:


> Just get a Lyr and fogeddabouddit.




I thought Lyr was a tube amp.


----------



## Loevhagen

My favorite amp to the LCD-2s is a quite solid German:


----------



## Paganini Alfredo

It is. you need to still not remember anything... tubes are better anyhow.


----------



## Girls Generation

loevhagen said:


> My favorite amp to the LCD-2s is a quite solid German:




Do want.


----------



## WarriorAnt

I really love my V200.


----------



## Girls Generation

warriorant said:


> I really love my V200.




Would like to audition it. Too bad there's virtually no head-fiers in Vancouver.


----------



## Ultrainferno

Thanks for the replies. Looks like I'll be keeping the Violectric!


----------



## Questhate

I'm really torn between a few amps for the LCDs. I'd like to keep a DAC + Amp combo around ~900 since there are a few competitors in this price range. This is going to be part of my desktop set up, so I'd need USB input to transfer my FLAC files. 
   
  Schiit Bifrost + Lyr ($900) - Early reviews of the Bifrost have been fairly good. The Lyr seems to be very popular with the LCDs, so I know the synergy is good. I like the idea of tube rolling to get some different flavors, but in general I think I gravitate more toward a cleaner SS sound. 
   
  Burson 160DS ($890) - The Burson wasn't really in my price range until they announced this headphone-only model (no preamp). This has gotten very good reviews with the LCD, but then there are reports of it being 2-dimensional in its imaging. 
   
  Musical Fidelity M1 HPA ($800) - This is the amp that I demo'd the LCDs on, and I quite liked it although I don't have any experience with amps in this price range. My reservations stem from the fact that the DAC only does 24/48.
   
  Violectric V200 ($1200 with 24/96 option) - This is a bit of a stretch price-wise from the other options here, but if it is a cut above the rest of the amps listed, then I'd probably spring for this. 
   
  CENtrance DacMini CX ($800) - I haven't actually read much about this yet, but it's within the price range so I'll need to read up on this.
   
  Audio-GD NFB-10SE ($500) - This is a bargain, so I'd like to consider it even though I don't want to hassle with going balanced. Early reviews have been good, but I'm hesitant to order from them because if anything went wrong, the return process would be a pain.
   
  I'm very interested in anyone who has heard more than one of these, and would be nice enough to chime in on how they compare with the LCD-2. I'm hoping this will be my last purchase so I'd love to soak in as much information as possible before making a decision.
   
  Thanks!


----------



## Argo Duck

The 10SE can be used single-ended too. At the impedance of the LCD2 (or 3), this will mean you get 1.5W rather than 6W RMS - if that would be important to you. Not sure whether olor1n has his balanced cables yet but he's been very happy from his early reports - even finding the Lyr a bit smeared by comparison IIRC


----------



## Girls Generation

V200 vs. B22 vs. Stacker II

Anyone?


----------



## Equus

Quote: 





girls generation said:


> V200 vs. B22 vs. Stacker II
> Anyone?


 


  I haven't heard a V200, but I have heard a V181 for a short time.  Also have listened to a B22.  I would probably prefer the Stacker II, personally, but that depends on what kind of sound you're looking for.  Also who built the B22 or Stacker II and how it was built.  There's some variances to be expected, since they're DIY.


----------



## alvin sawdust

Would like to throw another solid state amp into the mix, the X5 by KS Projects.
   
  Saw this amp on flea bay and my interest was piqued when I noticed the amp is designed and built just a few miles down the road from me.
   
  After shooting a few emails back and forth, we arranged for me to borrow the amp in exchange for the loan of my DarkVoice 337se. Within 2 days I had decided that I wanted to keep it, so I coughed up the cash and ever since I have been very pleased.
   
  Sound is grain free, very engaging and lifelike. Bass is superb in definition and depth. Sound stage has good width but what pleases me more is sound stage depth, which up till now, has not been one of the LCD-2.1s great strengths.
   
  Good stuff.


----------



## winkyeye

Hey do you guys have any other recommendations for the LCD-2s besides the Lyr at under $450? And how do those amps compare to the Lyr?


----------



## MrQ

Quote: 





alvin sawdust said:


> Would like to throw another solid state amp into the mix, the X5 by KS Projects.
> 
> Saw this amp on flea bay and my interest was piqued when I noticed the amp is designed and built just a few miles down the road from me.
> 
> ...


 

 Even with the Leben?


----------



## Sweden

Quote: 





winkyeye said:


> Hey do you guys have any other recommendations for the LCD-2s besides the Lyr at under $450? And how do those amps compare to the Lyr?


 


  
  You should really check out this thread:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/537704/calling-all-vintage-integrated-receiver-owners/3045
http://www.head-fi.org/search.php?search=lcd-2&containingthread%5B%5D=537704&output=posts&action=disp
   

 I'm into vintage receivers and amps for my LCD-2 and some are really extraordinarily good with the LCD's!
  Here is what i think are the best ones for this particular headphone:
   
   
  Harman Kardon 730 and 430. Silky smooth , almost tube and but with great dynamics and an effortless to the sound. If you are short on cash and need something great that can drive the LCD's, this is a good choice. Also H/K 930, 630 and 330 should work just as fine, but haven't had the chance to listen to them.
   
   
  Sansui AU-505/555A 
  In my opinion this is really what audio from the 70's is all about.
  The sound of the LCD's on these intgr amps can just be described as beautiful. Warm, lush tube like sound.Very musical sounding to me.
  I like these and especially 555A more than the Harman Kardons . Also pretty cheap off ebay.
   
   
  Sansui 8080, 9090(db)
  These are the finest sounding line of receivers I heard with my LCD-2 along with the big Kenwoods.
  They have everything I like the LCD's to sound.Great control and power, soundstage, details, but also a nice twist of that musical sound.
   
   
  Kenwood KR-9600/9400, KR-6600, KR-4070
   
  Even the little measly and cheap 40 wpc KR-4070 do a really great job making the headphones sound really dynamic and powerful with great bass and soundstage.
   I actually have a hard time thinking any 70's Kenwood receiver over 40 watt that will sound anything but great.
  I've never heard the KR-9600 but the KR-9400 and Sansui 9090 makes the LCD-2s come alive in a way I've never heard a modern amp can do. Sure you can hear more details on something like a HA-160,  but you don't get involved in the music on this level. To me they sound flat and lifeless in comparison.
   
   
  Pioneer SX-850/950/1050/1080/1250
   
  Many consider the SX-1250 to be the best of all the 70's stuff to run with the LCD-s
  I only heard it with the SX-950 which are very similar in sound according to many but with less power.
  This is maybe the punchiest and hardest hitting of the bunch. Great soundstage and very clean sound.
   
   
  This is just the tip of the iceberg folks!
   As is the case with electronics over 30 years old, things can sound absolutely horrible when it get bad!
  Many things can be broke or semi-broke on a unit, so watch out and make sure it's in great condition.
  Often it's easy to fix with some deoxit tho. Sometimes you need a full renovation..
  Just my 2 cents.


----------



## alvin sawdust

Only had the Leben for a couple of weeks before it stopped working, since then it's been at the repairers 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. From what I can remember, the Leben doesn't match the stage depth of the X5.Could end up eating my words of course after I get the Leben back.
   
  The LCD-2 is obviously very versatile when it comes to amping, but have to admit how pleasantly surprised I am at how beautiful it sounds from a high quality SS amp.
   
  What are you driving yours with at the minute old friend?
  
  Quote: 





mrq said:


> Even with the Leben?


----------



## redwarrior191

anyone tried the ec/ss or ck2iii with the lcd-2?? i'm currently looking for budget ss amps for them..


----------



## Girls Generation

So V200, B22, Stacker II, and X5.

Anyone? 

Looking for a sound that will complement sad emotional vocals, R&B, and soothing classical. I do appreciate an expansive 3D SS, not overlydone detail and clarity, but just enough to leave a smile (is this called "sparkle?"), deep enveloping bass, but something that really makes the mids creamy and lush and intimate.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





sweden said:


> You should really check out this thread:
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/537704/calling-all-vintage-integrated-receiver-owners/3045
> http://www.head-fi.org/search.php?search=lcd-2&containingthread%5B%5D=537704&output=posts&action=disp
> 
> ...


 
  I am about to send my Sansui 505 out to a restore guru.  When I plugged my LCD-2's into the 505 I was amazed at how good it sounds.  Gives my solid state a real run for the money.  I had to have a real soul search about it since I paid something like $40 for is and another $25 to have it shipped.  I forgot now exactly what I paid overall, could even be less.  No one seemed to was it so I won the auction at a really low price. As it is now if it were my only amp for the LCD I could live with it.  I can't wait to hear it after I finally get it restored/refurbished.


----------



## johnwmclean

girls generation said:


> So V200, B22, Stacker II, and X5.
> 
> Anyone?
> 
> Looking for a sound that will complement sad emotional vocals, R&B, and soothing classical. I do appreciate an expansive 3D SS, not overlydone detail and clarity, but just enough to leave a smile (is this called "sparkle?"), deep enveloping bass, but something that really makes the mids creamy and lush and intimate.




Might as well colour your bedroom bright yellow. See how long you can stand it.


----------



## Sweden

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> I am about to send my Sansui 505 out to a restore guru.  When I plugged my LCD-2's into the 505 I was amazed at how good it sounds.  Gives my solid state a real run for the money.  I had to have a real soul search about it since I paid something like $40 for is and another $25 to have it shipped.  I forgot now exactly what I paid overall, could even be less.  No one seemed to was it so I won the auction at a really low price. As it is now if it were my only amp for the LCD I could live with it.  I can't wait to hear it after I finally get it restored/refurbished.


 

  
  There is nothing like the low to middle watt quality Kenwood/Sansui/Harman Kardon receivers or intgr in value for money driving a pair of LCD-2 I believe.
  40 USD is just silly.. Same goes for a 30-80 USD HK 730 and 430. I bet the restoration cost a bit more though


----------



## Girls Generation

johnwmclean said:


> Might as well colour your bedroom bright yellow. See how long you can stand it.




What if I said my room is bright yellow?


----------



## johnwmclean

Quote: 





girls generation said:


> What if I said my room is bright yellow?


 
   
  Silly me, then you need a coloured amp to match of course


----------



## WarriorAnt

You could consider the Glow line of amps and speakers.  

   

   

   
  http://www.glow-audio.com/home.html


----------



## MrQ

Quote: 





alvin sawdust said:


> Only had the Leben for a couple of weeks before it stopped working, since then it's been at the repairers
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  At the moment I'm using my Pioneer SX-1980


----------



## Skylab

And there is very little that's better than than, IMHO!


----------



## johnwmclean

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> You could consider the Glow line of amps and speakers.
> http://www.glow-audio.com/home.html


 

 Perfect!


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





johnwmclean said:


> Perfect!


 


  I haven't heard the amps or speakers but they have gotten some good reviews for their sound and very modest price.


----------



## elnero

Quote: 





sweden said:


> I'm into vintage receivers and amps for my LCD-2 and some are really extraordinarily good with the LCD's!
> Here is what i think are the best ones for this particular headphone...


 
   
  Thanks for posting your findings with the various vintage gear you've tried with the LCD-2's. I jumped on the vintage bandwagon a short while back with a Harman Kardon 730 and shortly after that picked up a Pioneer SX-650. I much prefer the 730 to the 650, in fact I preferred the 730 paired with my Pico DAC to the CEntrance DACmini I had been using with the LCD-2's. The DACmini's DAC was technically better but the Pico has a nicer synergy with the 730 and the 730 IMO did a much better job with the LCD-2's. I've had my eye on trying a Sansui next. I'm mostly interested in a 505 or 555A so it was nice to read your comments.
   
  I bought the 730 on a whim and it's really opened my eyes to what a little bit of money invested in a vintage amp or receiver can do. For the past couple of days I've had a Neko Audio D100 MKII here on loan which is proving to be quite a revelation. In my opinion, because of the bang for the buck you get with vintage, for those on a budget who have the space, it makes the most sense to buy a decent vintage amp and invest more heavily in buying a decent source.


----------



## drez

Have sent Audeze an email asking whether or not damping factor (read: low amplifier output impedance) is an important factor in amplifying the LCD-2.
   
  EDIT: Sankar just sent response:
   
  "Damping in amplifiers is not a big problem for planar headphones since the impedance doesn't vary. The LCD-2 has an impedance of 60 ohms, which is purely resistive and is almost perfectly flat across the entire frequency."
   
  guess that answers that.  Damn that was quick!


----------



## K3cT

I find those vintage receivers to be rough sounding when compared directly with the β22. They are definitely good value for the money though.


----------



## Argo Duck

Kevin (KWKarth) and one or two others already commented on this early in this thread (somewhere about p.60 IIRC). Sufficient current delivery was deemed more important. But good to have it (damping factor) confirmed straight from the source 
  
  Figures for rev 1 are 52 and the LCD3 50 ohms respectively.
  Quote: 





> Have sent Audeze an email asking whether or not damping factor (read: low amplifier output impedance) is an important factor in amplifying the LCD-2.
> 
> EDIT: Sankar just sent response:
> 
> "Damping in amplifiers is not a big problem for planar headphones since the impedance doesn't vary. The LCD-2 has an impedance of 60 ohms, which is purely resistive and is almost perfectly flat across the entire frequency."


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





drez said:


> Have sent Audeze an email asking whether or not damping factor (read: low amplifier output impedance) is an important factor in amplifying the LCD-2.
> 
> EDIT: Sankar just sent response:
> 
> ...


 

 Which is why they were such a great match with my (now sold) OTL WA2.
   


  Quote: 





argo duck said:


> Kevin (KWKarth) and one or two others already commented on this early in this thread (somewhere about p.60 IIRC). Sufficient current delivery was deemed more important. But good to have it (damping factor) confirmed straight from the source
> 
> Figures for rev 1 are 52 and the LCD3 50 ohms respectively.


----------



## buson160man

I am not familar with the apache but i have just purchased a audeze lcd-2 phone and am using it with my ray samuels raptor amp(with hi-fi tuning fuse) and a kubala sosna
  emotion power cord and the pairing is very satisfying.The tonal quality of this pairing and the quality of the bass from this duo is the best i have heard in my set-up.I had
  read that otl amps were not a sympathetic match for the audeze phones when it came to bass(lack of definition?). The bass produced by this duo definetly has good weight and is very well defined for a tube amp.I think you would be very happy with the sound from the audeze lcd2 if you used a ray samuels raptor i find the duo very sympatico.                    
   
   
   
                                                                                                                                                                                                            buson160man


----------



## googleli

Isn't the Kabula Sonsa Emotion more expensive than the Raptor?


----------



## Questhate

This is a question to those with a V200. Does anyone use the USB input option on it? If so, how does it compare to a standalone DAC? 
   
  I'm pretty much set on a V200 as my all-in-one desktop option for the LCD-2, but I'm wondering if it would be worthwhile to spend the $200 on the USB input option on a standalone DAC. 
   
  Thanks in advance.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





questhate said:


> This is a question to those with a V200. Does anyone use the USB input option on it? If so, how does it compare to a standalone DAC?
> 
> I'm pretty much set on a V200 as my all-in-one desktop option for the LCD-2, but I'm wondering if it would be worthwhile to spend the $200 on the USB input option on a standalone DAC.
> 
> Thanks in advance.


 


  I own the V200 but I use the Wyred 4 Sound DAC-2.  You should ask your question over in the V200 thread. 
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/551173/review-violectric-hpa-v200-amp/525


----------



## Questhate

Ahh, good idea WA!


----------



## googleli

Probably my final comments on the LCD2 since my LCD3 is on its way now.
   
  For those interested in using "bricks" setup, this is my final word for the LCD2 Rev 1:
   
*iDevice -> Fostex HP-P1 (Filter 2) -> SR71A (Mid gain) -> Norse 8 conductor cable *
   
  I have tested a lot of combinations of "bricks", including the only fully balanced "brick" combo available:
  iDevice -> CLAS -> iBasso DB2 -> SR71B -> ALO Awg 22 SR71B-LCD2 balanced cable. For single ended, I also tried iDevice -> CLAS/HP-P1 -> Stepdance (15V regulated).
   
  I see the beauty of fully balanced sound, but I still prefer HP-P1 -> SR71A for my Rev 1. Stepdance is also a great brick but too clean sounding even for the LCD2 Rev 1. Very good match with my ES5 though.
   
  Will so some similar tests after my LCD-3 arrives. I will take it home to use it with my Esoteric K-01 and Leben CS300XS and it will be a while before I bring the LCD-3 to the office to use it with the bricks.
   
  See you guys in the LCD3 amping thread!


----------



## Windsor

I've said it before, and I'll say it again in another way:
   

   
  Awesome.


----------



## Anthony1

Quote: 





googleli said:


> Will so some similar tests after my LCD-3 arrives.


 


   
  Googleli.. Where did you buy your LCD3s from?


----------



## googleli

From Audeze. Just received shipment notice.


----------



## buson160man

close but not quite.I am using it because I already had one and was using it on another piece of equipment.It really shines with the raptor and now that the lcd2 has settled in it is imho very suitable amplification for them.If you have a raptor and do not have the scratch for the emotion power cord I would suggest that you should at least replace the stock  fuse in the raptor with a hifi tuning fuse(i believe it is a 600ma fuse but call ray samuels and inquire about the fuse sizehe recommends).I used a gold fuse and the improvement in the amplifier was clearly evident.


----------



## YoengJyh

Hi Guys,
   
  Can i pair the LCD-2 with NFB-12?


----------



## drez

Quote: 





yoengjyh said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> Can i pair the LCD-2 with NFB-12?


 

 You can, but most reviews seem to poop on the NFB-12, in theory it has plenty of power though.


----------



## YoengJyh

Thanks Drez,
   
  Christmas is coming soon, i am wondering is there any discount on the LCD-2 or not? If nope then properly will order it tonight! YEAH!


----------



## Currawong

The Sparrow, which is much the same thing as the NFB-12 worked and sounded fine with the LCD-2s, but was outclassed by, well, everything. It wasn't a lack of power, just the limits of what you can cram in the way of power supply into a small box and the resulting lack of detail and instrument separation. IMO you should save your money and get an NFB-10SE and get your LCD-2s re-terminated with a 4-pin XLR plug if you're choosing from Audio-gd.


----------



## YoengJyh

Quote: 





currawong said:


> The Sparrow, which is much the same thing as the NFB-12 worked and sounded fine with the LCD-2s, but was outclassed by, well, everything. It wasn't a lack of power, just the limits of what you can cram in the way of power supply into a small box and the resulting lack of detail and instrument separation. IMO you should save your money and get an NFB-10SE and get your LCD-2s re-terminated with a 4-pin XLR plug if you're choosing from Audio-gd.


 


  Really...? But i plan not to spend more on the amp... 499usd leh... + shipment.. 599usd.. another 800sgd for me to spend..OH MY GOD~ How?


----------



## YoengJyh

Besides Audio-GD, any other good brand amp?


----------



## drez

I'm all out of ideas for $200.  If I were to buy something in that range I would look for good resale or an easy upgrade path, or buy second hand.


----------



## Ultrainferno

LCD2 with a $200 amp? Why not get a Sennheiser HD600/650 in stead and get a better amp, then you can upgrade later


----------



## YoengJyh

Initially i wanna buy HD650, but.. i don't wanna spend more money in upgrading. So, i feel that i buy LCD-2 directly would be much better.
   
  hmm... since like that, then i would keep my money first then go for NFB-10SE. Great?


----------



## Sweden

Quote: 





yoengjyh said:


> Initially i wanna buy HD650, but.. i don't wanna spend more money in upgrading. So, i feel that i buy LCD-2 directly would be much better.
> 
> hmm... since like that, then i would keep my money first then go for NFB-10SE. Great?


 


   Try something like a Harman Kardon 730/430 receiver or a Sansui AU-505/555(A) integrated amp from the 70's.
  Both the 730 and 330 can be had for less than 100 dollar. These will be almost as good as many of the amps I heard that is mentioned in this thread.
  If you step up to something like a TOTL Sansui 9090 they will sound just as good IMHO. I've not heard something like a Liquid Fire or a Darkstar, but I've heard the Leben CS-300X with the LCD's and it's pretty close I tell you.


----------



## tink97

If it helps any I used to own  a harmon Kardon 430k twin powered and I felt it did a very nice job of amping the lcd-2.  It was the best 90- bucks I had spent on running my headphones.  i have since sold it though and in the mist of waiting a decware mini torii order.
   
  just my two cents have a great day


----------



## Ham Sandwich

How are the LCD-2 affected by having a high headphone output impedance?  A high output impedance can have an effect on standard dynamic headphones but I'm not sure if orthos follow that same rule of thumb.
   
  The vintage (and even some modern) integrated amps that power the headphone jack from the speaker amp do so by using a resistor network between the amp and the headphone jack.  That results in a high output impedance at the headphone jack.  Typically can be in the 100 ohm range or so.


----------



## GeorgeNapalm

Just got my LCD-2 and like them a lot. However, by general consensus  OTL amps, and Little Dot MK III in particular,  are not great with them. So I plan to upgrade and came to 2 alternatives:
   
  a) to build an AMB M3
  b) to buy a Schiit Lyr.
   
  Did anyone have experience listening to LCD-2 on these two?


----------



## Olias of Sunhillow

Quote: 





georgenapalm said:


> Just got my LCD-2 and like them a lot. However, by general consensus  OTL amps, and Little Dot MK III in particular,  are not great with them. So I plan to upgrade and came to 2 alternatives:
> 
> a) to build an AMB M3
> b) to buy a Schiit Lyr.
> ...


 

 I'm not sure that OTL is really the issue. I think my LCD-2.2 sound quite good on my OTL Woo Audio WA2. If I owned only the LCD-2 and wanted an amp specifically for them, however, I'd probably choose the Lyr over the WA2. The Lyr makes for a more dynamic combination, while the WA2 has a deliciously relaxed sound signature that is perfect sometimes, but not so perfect other times.
   
  I've never heard an M3.


----------



## Argo Duck

Good point. Another thread I'm following seemed to have a relevant contribution this morning (see this post). Look at the last paragraph. It's a bit hard to follow all the clauses in a very long sentence, but the relevant part seems to concern Zhp+Zout. I suppose reducing the power might be a good thing. With Zout = 100 and Zhp ~ 50 ohms, power would be about 1/3 (compared to an amp with Zout near 0).
   
  Some of the experts around here might care to comment more about this and whether there are any other effects?
  
  Quote: 





ham sandwich said:


> How are the LCD-2 affected by having a high headphone output impedance?  A high output impedance can have an effect on standard dynamic headphones but I'm not sure if orthos follow that same rule of thumb.
> 
> The vintage (and even some modern) integrated amps that power the headphone jack from the speaker amp do so by using a resistor network between the amp and the headphone jack.  That results in a high output impedance at the headphone jack.  Typically can be in the 100 ohm range or so.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





yoengjyh said:


> Besides Audio-GD, any other good brand amp?


 


  I use the V200.


----------



## YoengJyh

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> I use the V200.


 


  Wah! 1k usd for that, bro.. impossible for me to purchase them. But is is lifetime warranty? 
   
  But the output power is lesser than the NFB-10SE a lot.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





argo duck said:


> Good point. Another thread I'm following seemed to have a relevant contribution this morning (see this post). Look at the last paragraph. It's a bit hard to follow all the clauses in a very long sentence, but the relevant part seems to concern Zhp+Zout. I suppose reducing the power might be a good thing. With Zout = 100 and Zhp ~ 50 ohms, power would be about 1/3 (compared to an amp with Zout near 0).
> 
> Some of the experts around here might care to comment more about this and whether there are any other effects?


 


  I can't see any reason why reducing the power by having a headphone amp with a high output impedance would be a good thing.
  The post you refer to actually makes good engineering sense.
   
  Having said all that, many people, including me, enjoy the colouration of OTL tube amps and tube amps in general.
  But when it comes to solid state, the lower the output impedance of the amp, the better.
   
  Edit:   but I do enjoy the colouration of OTL tube amps..........it's not accurate, the output impedance is too high for a lot of 'phones, but it is pleasing to listen too


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





ham sandwich said:


> How are the LCD-2 affected by having a high headphone output impedance?  A high output impedance can have an effect on standard dynamic headphones but I'm not sure if orthos follow that same rule of thumb.
> 
> The vintage (and even some modern) integrated amps that power the headphone jack from the speaker amp do so by using a resistor network between the amp and the headphone jack.  That results in a high output impedance at the headphone jack.  Typically can be in the 100 ohm range or so.


 


   
  Orthos, planar magnetics, standard dynamic headphones will all follow the same rules:
  The headphone amplifier drives the headphone with voltage, and the headphones draw current based on how much voltage they are driven by and how much impedance the headphones have.
  Ideally, headphone amp output impedance should be as low as possible.
   
  Electrically speaking:
  Headphone amplifiers are actually a voltage source with voltage gain.


----------



## Raser

Do anyone have any comments about red wine audio corvina? Is it any good? Or just a waste of money


----------



## Francoy

Quote: 





raser said:


> Do anyone have any comments about red wine audio corvina? Is it any good? Or just a waste of money


 

 Probably both... Depending on your stance regarding hi-fi :¬)
   
   
  (sorry for the absolute waste of kilobytes - not to mention everyone’s time - with this completely unproductive reply... just couldn’t stop myself)


----------



## Argo Duck

Agreed. Did you read the post I was responding to? [Edit:] Ham was talking about integrated amps not head amps I thought... 
  
  Quote: 





chris j said:


> *I can't see any reason why reducing the power by having a headphone amp with a high output impedance would be a good thing*.
> The post you refer to actually makes good engineering sense.
> 
> Having said all that, many people, including me, enjoy the colouration of OTL tube amps and tube amps in general.
> ...


----------



## Argo Duck

Well this is one of the clearer statements I've seen - thanks!
   
  As well, the max output current capacity of the amp sets a limit on the lowest possible impedance phone 'workable' with that amp right?
   
  There was discussion earlier in this thread about how the LCD2 needed high current. I confess I didn't really get this, beyond the obvious point that to achieve a given max SPL there would need to be enough current capability to support the voltage that would be delivered into that phone impedance at that SPL...
   
  For example, an amp with max 10V output Imax = 500mA, negligible Zout, and Zhp = 52 (assumed constant throughout the range for this example).
   
  (1) Max power = V^2 / (Zout+Zhp) = 100/ (0 + 52)  [for LCD2 rev 1, let's say Zout 0] = 1.9W
   
  (2) Current = V / (Zout+Zhp) = 10 / 52 = 192mA. Is this less than 500mA - i.e. within the capability of the amp - yes.
   
  That's as far as I got. Is there more?  
   
  As well, there's been talk of "high gain" being better, but I haven't understood why this would be...
   
  Any clarification you care to add much appreciated Chris.
  
  Quote: 





chris j said:


> Orthos, planar magnetics, standard dynamic headphones will all follow the same rules:
> The headphone amplifier drives the headphone with voltage, and the headphones draw current based on how much voltage they are driven by and how much impedance the headphones have.
> Ideally, headphone amp output impedance should be as low as possible.
> 
> ...


----------



## K3cT

Quote: 





ham sandwich said:


> How are the LCD-2 affected by having a high headphone output impedance?  A high output impedance can have an effect on standard dynamic headphones but I'm not sure if orthos follow that same rule of thumb.
> 
> The vintage (and even some modern) integrated amps that power the headphone jack from the speaker amp do so by using a resistor network between the amp and the headphone jack.  That results in a high output impedance at the headphone jack.  Typically can be in the 100 ohm range or so.


 


  I would imagine the high frequency to roll off earlier than ideal.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





yoengjyh said:


> Wah! 1k usd for that, bro.. impossible for me to purchase them. But is is lifetime warranty?
> 
> But the output power is lesser than the NFB-10SE a lot.


 

 It has enough power and more to drive the LCD-2 with ease.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





raser said:


> Do anyone have any comments about red wine audio corvina? Is it any good? Or just a waste of money


 

 Does anyone have one yet?  I think it is just now coming to market.


----------



## jc9394

After spending the last four hours with LCD-2 with beta22, I have concluded it is the best combo I have ever heard.  It is the best?  I don't know as there are a lot of high end SS amp I have not hear yet but this will be the final stop for me on searching the perfect amp for LCD-2.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





argo duck said:


> Well this is one of the clearer statements I've seen - thanks!
> 
> As well, the max output current capacity of the amp sets a limit on the lowest possible impedance phone 'workable' with that amp right?
> 
> ...


 

 Hey there,
  Yes, basically, the maximum output current would limit how low an output impedance you could drive, what you have written makes sense.
  But it is also tied into the efficiency or sensitivity of the 'phones. 
   
  So let's try this another way.
  As you all know, the LCD has an efficiency of 91 dB/1 mW, on the low side compared to a lot of other 'phones and an impedance of 60 ohms nominal (I got this from the manufacturer's website).
  The LCD-2 is a low impedance, low efficiency phone so it needs lots of current.
   
  Calculations ahead....I hope this isn't confusing..........
   
  Let's say you want to listen at an average volume of 106 dB (loud!) and you want 15 dB of headroom because you have some very, very dynamic recordings.
  So maximum peaks will be 121 dB.
  If LCD-2 draws 1 mW at 91 dB then it draws 1.0 Watt at 121 dB SPL.
  Crunch thru the numbers and we get 7.74 Vrms and 130 mAmps rms to get 121 dB SPL.
   
  So, yeah, you need a fair amount of current to drive LCD-2s to high volumes.
  An iPod would run out of Voltage and current.
  I would think just about any portable would run out of voltage and current when asked to drive the LCD-2 to high volumes.
  A Matrix M Stage will output max. 400 mW into 60 ohms, and 400 mW is only approx. 3 dB down from 1.00 Watt.
  I'm only mentioning the Matrix cos I have one.
   
  The high gain question: because the LCD-2 is a low efficiency phone, it also needs more voltage to drive it than say a pair of other low impedance 'phones like Grados or AKG K70x or 32 ohm Beyer DT770.
  So your volume control would be turned up higher for LCD-2s than for most other 60 ohm 'phones.
  And if you do want to listen at 106 dB with recordings with 15 dB of headroom then the 'phones need 7.74 Vrms.
  I think my CD outputs a maximum of 2 volts (typical for most DACs and CD players) so it would be nice to have at least 10 dB of gain and even then the volume control would be set pretty high, think 2 or 3 o'clock.
  Remember, headphone amps are actually voltage amplifiers:   Vout = Vin * gain.W
  When everyone says "gain" they mean "voltage gain".
   
  Disclaimer: I don't own the LCD-2 , but the planar technology fascinates me.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





argo duck said:


> Agreed. Did you read the post I was responding to? [Edit:] Ham was talking about integrated amps not head amps I thought...


 


 ooops, I forgot to answer this question:
  yes, I knew he was taking about integrated amps with headphone jacks.
  I guess I'm just saying if you have an integrated amp with very low output impedance, why mess with a good thing by adding a 100 ohm resistor to the headphone jack?
  Your question made me plug my headphones into the headphone jack on my Bryston 2B-LP power amp. This has a 150 ohm resistor on the headphone jack, maybe that's why the bass sounds so fat?
  I had to turn the volume control on the pre-amp down lower than I normally would when listening to speakers.
  Thanks for asking, a thought provoking set of questions!
   
  P.S. say hello to Peter Jackson for me


----------



## johnwmclean

Quote: 





jc9394 said:


> After spending the last four hours with LCD-2 with beta22, I have concluded it is the best combo I have ever heard.  It is the best?  I don't know as there are a lot of high end SS amp I have not hear yet but this will be the final stop for me on searching the perfect amp for LCD-2.


 

 Besides KG’s Dynamite.... I can’t think of any other contenders.
  The LCD-2 and Beta22 is also my favourite combo I’ve heard to date.


----------



## Argo Duck

Chris, thanks for those fantastic replies - extremely helpful 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  I think this explains why of my two DACs, the 2.5Vrms one works better with my preferred SS amp than the 2.2Vrms one. It sounds distinctly livelier and more dynamic with lower volume settings needed.
   
  And yes, I will pass on your regards to PJ LOL. He's busy filming at this very moment I believe!


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





argo duck said:


> Chris, thanks for those fantastic replies - extremely helpful
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


 Mr Ai,
  Thanks for your comments.
  I looked up your profile, your interests include math?
  You must eat this stuff up.
  Man, you have a lot of gear....................are the LCDs as awesome as their reputation?
  Which DAC do you prefer?
  I want to get one for listening to stuff off my notebook.
   
  Cheers, C


----------



## Argo Duck

Hi Chris,
   
  My deep math is very rusty these days - something I mean to address as soon as I get time by doing some refreshers and going on with more study. The stuff I need for my simulations and data cleaning and transformations is pretty simple, fortunately!
   
  The LCDs are not for everyone, but they *are* something special. I recommend an extended audition. In my case, I owned Stax Lambda Pro since 1992, and Grado RS1 since 2007, but headphone listening was still a poor cousin to speakers. When I heard the LCD2 I thought "interesting" rather than "wow". Slowly, I noticed point after point. Impressive body and texture in the bass and mids, convincing timbre, fine detail. Probably a little dark - I have the rev 1.
   
  Hearing classical piano - the one instrument I know well - was a revelation. Hard to know whether it is 'perfectly' right, but convincingly real.
   
  Long story short, the LCD2 made me realize headphone gear is seriously good!
   
  Well, gee, I like all three of my DACs. MiniMax was my preference with the LCD2; StageDAC with my speakers. I'm half-way through a mini-review comparing these with the Schiit Bifrost, which I must say is an impressive unit and may cause a re-shuffle 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Cheers, Andre


----------



## leesure

Quote: 





raser said:


> Do anyone have any comments about red wine audio corvina? Is it any good? Or just a waste of money


 


  I have the balanced RWA Isabellina...which is the balanced Corvina amp section with the DAC built in.  It's a fantastic amp for the LCD-2's.  Skylab reviewed the Isabellina recently and bought the review sample.
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/572939/review-red-wine-audio-audeze-edition-balanced-headphone-amplifier-dac-combo
   
  I have not heard the Corvina on its own yet, but there are a number of positive impressions from the recent NYC meet.
   
  How do you define a 'waste of money'?  I have a Schiit Bifrost/Lyr as well...very nice and 1/3 the cost of an Isabellina HPA...but the RWA sounds better...how much that sound is worth will vary by the listener.


----------



## googleli

Has anyone compared the Liquid Fire with the Redwine Audeze side by side? Would be interested to hear some impressions. Thanks.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





leesure said:


> I have the balanced RWA Isabellina...which is the balanced Corvina amp section with the DAC built in.  It's a fantastic amp for the LCD-2's.  Skylab reviewed the Isabellina recently and bought the review sample.
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/572939/review-red-wine-audio-audeze-edition-balanced-headphone-amplifier-dac-combo


 




    


  The RWA Isabellina is the same as the RWA Audeze Edition?         The Corvina balanced (out) is the same as the amp section in the Isabellina?


----------



## YoengJyh

Hi guys,
   
  Just bought the LCD-2 from my local retailer. So far, i didn't using any amp yet but the sound quality is brilliant. This baby is really heavy, my neck starts tired. 
   
  Unfortunately, i was a little bit unhappy due to my local retailer, Stereo Singapore. I found out that my LCD-2 wire cable is not the original. They provided me a different type, not similar to the Audez'e Homepage. 
   
  I dropped a email to the staff, wish he could provide me a good reason if not i won't shop in Stereo.sg anymore...


----------



## googleli

Don't use the stock cable, I suggest you try the Norse, they are really bang for the buck. You won't want to go back to the stock cables once you have tried the Norse.


----------



## Raser

Quote: 





leesure said:


> I have the balanced RWA Isabellina...which is the balanced Corvina amp section with the DAC built in.  It's a fantastic amp for the LCD-2's.  Skylab reviewed the Isabellina recently and bought the review sample.
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/572939/review-red-wine-audio-audeze-edition-balanced-headphone-amplifier-dac-combo
> 
> ...


 


   
  I mean that if i get even near the quality with half the price (burson?). I think that is waste of money and better save that extra for another dac perhaps


----------



## YoengJyh

Quote: 





yoengjyh said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Just bought the LCD-2 from my local retailer. So far, i didn't using any amp yet but the sound quality is brilliant. This baby is really heavy, my neck starts tired.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Oops, i think i was my mistake. The cable is ADZ-6S. Thanks Stereo.sg!


----------



## YoengJyh

Hi guys,
   
  How to register the LCD-2? I went to their www.audeze.com/support/warranty-registration.html but page was not found.
   
  Any ideas?


----------



## Randall DZM

Yup, it's here. 
https://audeze.com/warranty-registration


----------



## YoengJyh

Quote: 





randall dzm said:


> Yup, it's here.
> https://audeze.com/warranty-registration


 

 Thanks man! Love ya! Welcome myself to Audeze Group! Huhuhu~ Plan to get Audio-gd NFB-10SE Soon!


----------



## Randall DZM

haha yeah, I want to try the NFB-10SE balanced.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





yoengjyh said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Just bought the LCD-2 from my local retailer. So far, i didn't using any amp yet but the sound quality is brilliant. This baby is really heavy, my neck starts tired.
> 
> ...


 
  It took me a month for my neck to get used to the weight, but I have arthritis in my neck. After that no problem.
   
  Look on your headphone cable for writing to identify it.  Audeze has had a few different cables for the LCD-2.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





googleli said:


> Don't use the stock cable, I suggest you try the Norse, they are really bang for the buck. You won't want to go back to the stock cables once you have tried the Norse.


 


  Have you tried the Q cable?


----------



## googleli

No although I have heard it is very good. I have ordered the new Norse cable which is said to be better than Q and weightless with the 4 wire version for my LcD3. I also have the ALo cable for the SR71B but I am not impressed.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





googleli said:


> No although I have heard it is very good. I have ordered the new Norse cable which is said to be better than Q and weightless with the 4 wire version for my LcD3. I also have the ALo cable for the SR71B but I am not impressed.


 

 Who says that?   I'm interested in a review.


----------



## leesure

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> The RWA Isabellina is the same as the RWA Audeze Edition?         The Corvina balanced (out) is the same as the amp section in the Isabellina?


 


  The balanced RWA Isabellina is the same as the Audeze Edition...just without the LCD-2's and ALO cable. 
   
  Vinnie tells me the balanced Corvina amp section is the same as the balanced Isabellina Amp section...tho I have not yet heard it.


----------



## leesure

Quote: 





raser said:


> I mean that if i get even near the quality with half the price (burson?). I think that is waste of money and better save that extra for another dac perhaps


 


  depends how you define 'close'.  Some might say that the cMoy amp from JDS Labs...a very good little amp for $69, is close enough. 
   
  The law of diminishing returns in audio says that typically, you need to spend 10x as much to get double the sound quality.  Many things beat that...and those are called values. 
   
  For me...and I only speak for me...the Balanced RWA is enough of an improvement over the $900 Schiit Bifrost/Lyr combo to justify the price.  That says a lot, because I think the Schiit combo is a singular value.  I think the sound I get from it would be acceptable at $2000...just don't tell Jason from Schiit that.


----------



## leesure

Quote: 





googleli said:


> Don't use the stock cable, I suggest you try the Norse, they are really bang for the buck. You won't want to go back to the stock cables once you have tried the Norse.


 


  +1 for the Norse cable...sounds great and the people there are a pleasure to deal with.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





leesure said:


> The balanced RWA Isabellina is the same as the Audeze Edition...just without the LCD-2's and ALO cable.
> 
> Vinnie tells me the balanced Corvina amp section is the same as the balanced Isabellina Amp section...tho I have not yet heard it.


 

 I see.  The product lines were a bit confusing to me up until now.
   
   balanced out Corvina amp = balanced out Isabellina HPA Amp section
   
  Would the same be true for
   
   SE out Corvina amp = SE out  Isabellina Amp HPA section


----------



## leesure

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> I see.  The product lines were a bit confusing to me up until now.
> 
> balanced out Corvina amp = balanced out Isabellina HPA Amp section
> 
> ...


 

 Correct-a-mundo.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





leesure said:


> Correct-a-mundo.


 
  Is it a given that the Balanced out corvina will perform better  than the SE Corvina?


----------



## leesure

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> Is it a given that the Balanced out corvina will perform better  than the SE Corvina?


 


  Well...I guess that would depend in the cans, but with the LCD-2's, I would say yes.  1, because of the extra power and 2, because I heard an increase in micro-dynamics and detail with the balanced over SE version.
   
  Vinnie offers a money-back guarantee and a great upgrade path policy...give it a go.  I did and haven't been disappointed.


----------



## leesure

Just traded e-mails with Vinnie (who replies at 10pm?  Vinnie, that's who! Nice customer service!) and he clarified a few things...
   
_"Corvina (balanced) -- Same LiFePO4 battery pack, SMART board, LFP-V Tube Stage, Balanced output
 stage, and internal wiring as Isabellina HPA (balanced) and Audeze Edition.  However, Corvina has no remote
 volume control, no Isabellina Pro dac, and no line-out.  But it has 2 analog inputs.

 For $500 less, it can be configured with the single-ended stage that is also an option with the Isabellina HPA.

 Isabellina HPA (balanced) -- Same LiFePO4 battery pack, SMART board, LFP-V Tube Stage, Balanced output
 stage, and internal wiring as Audeze Edition.  It can be configured with the Isabellina Pro dac (just like Audeze Edition),
 or the standard Isabellina dac.  It can also be configured with the 12Vdc output jack that the AE has.  When you configure
 it to be just like the AE, it is $3600, but unlike the AE, it does not come with the ALO Audio AE cable (which is $650 if you were
 to purchase it seperately, and it does not come with the travel case for the whole system.  And the front panel does not
 have the Audeze logo and the red knob."_


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





leesure said:


> Just traded e-mails with Vinnie (who replies at 10pm?  Vinnie, that's who! Nice customer service!) and he clarified a few things...
> 
> _"Corvina (balanced) -- Same LiFePO4 battery pack, SMART board, LFP-V Tube Stage, Balanced output
> stage, and internal wiring as Isabellina HPA (balanced) and Audeze Edition.  However, Corvina has no remote
> ...


 

 Thanks for the leg work.


----------



## Currawong

Quote: 





yoengjyh said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Just bought the LCD-2 from my local retailer. So far, i didn't using any amp yet but the sound quality is brilliant. This baby is really heavy, my neck starts tired.
> 
> ...


 

 Some of the pictures on the site show the original cable, not the new flat cable, so I wouldn't worry about it. They changed the cable a couple of times. The first was red and black with techflex around the wires. The second was black and round, but a bit heavy. The third and current is flat and light.
  
  Quote: 





googleli said:


> Don't use the stock cable, I suggest you try the Norse, they are really bang for the buck. You won't want to go back to the stock cables once you have tried the Norse.


 
   
  The guy doesn't even have an amp or DAC yet and you're suggesting he buy a cable? We're nowhere near there yet.   The stock cable is fine.


----------



## khaos974

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Hey there,
> Yes, basically, the maximum output current would limit how low an output impedance you could drive, what you have written makes sense.
> But it is also tied into the efficiency or sensitivity of the 'phones.
> 
> ...


 

 There's only one (huge) issue with that calculation, 106 dB isn't loud, it's ear splitting!
  For myself, 80-85 dB average (ie 105-120 dB peaks for headroom) is already loud!


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





khaos974 said:


> There's only one (huge) issue with that calculation, 106 dB isn't loud, it's ear splitting!
> For myself, 80-85 dB average (ie 105-120 dB peaks for headroom) is already loud!


 

 Maybe I should edit the post to say "really f@#%ing loud"?
  LOL
  You're, right, I certainly don't crank it out that loud.  Not even when I'm listening to Deep Purple or Van Halen!
  I used those number because the LCD-2 spec sheet states that the LCD-2 can take an insane amount of power, not that anyone would want to listen to them that loud!
   
  I found an article in Hi Fi World showing some measurements of some SACDs, the highest headroom ( peak to average ratios) they found were 16 dB.


----------



## ptrok

Quote: 





googleli said:


> No although I have heard it is very good. I have ordered the new Norse cable which is said to be better than Q and weightless with the 4 wire version for my LcD3. I also have the ALo cable for the SR71B but I am not impressed.


 
  I prefer the Q cables myself because of the sound and ergonomics. Plus I think it is a little funny that Norse Audio cables came out with a cable so similar to the Q-audio after it's apparent success. Can't really say if it isn't better or not but as far as originality, it seems pretty weak. But hey, the guy has got to put food on his table.


----------



## GMF2010

Quote: 





ptrok said:


> I prefer the Q cables myself because of the sound and ergonomics. Plus I think it is a little funny that Norse Audio cables came out with a cable so similar to the Q-audio after it's apparent success. Can't really say if it isn't better or not but as far as originality, it seems pretty weak. But hey, the guy has got to put food on his table.


 


  I have a 4-wire and 8-wire Norse Audio Norn cable coming for my LCD-3. IMO, there is no other cable maker out there that offers the same bang for the buck. Norse Audio is also the only cable maker that offers matching wood Y splitters, which really adds a nice touch to the overall look of the LCD-2/3.
   
  Just my $0.02


----------



## WNBC

Was Q cable the first to make Litz _headphone cable_?  I agree that they came out before Norse but not necessarily the first in the headphone cable world.  When you google Litz headphone cable there are companies besides Norse and Q making Litz headphone cables.  If Q was the first then mad props and thank you spreading the technology.  I was actually thinking about the Q cable interconnects.  Anybody have experiences with them?
  
  Quote: 





ptrok said:


> I prefer the Q cables myself because of the sound and ergonomics. Plus I think it is a little funny that Norse Audio cables came out with a cable so similar to the Q-audio after it's apparent success. Can't really say if it isn't better or not but as far as originality, it seems pretty weak. But hey, the guy has got to put food on his table.


----------



## Vinnie R.

Quote: 





leesure said:


> Well...I guess that would depend in the cans, but with the LCD-2's, I would say yes.  1, because of the extra power and 2, because I heard an increase in micro-dynamics and detail with the balanced over SE version.
> 
> Vinnie offers a money-back guarantee and a great upgrade path policy...give it a go.  I did and haven't been disappointed.


 
   
  With the LCD-2 / LCD-3s, the balanced Corvina is MUCH better!
   
   
  For clarification:
   
*Corvina (balanced) *-- Same LiFePO4 battery pack, SMART board, LFP-V Tube Stage, Balanced output
  stage, and internal wiring as Isabellina HPA (balanced) and Audeze Edition.  However, Corvina has no remote
  volume control, no Isabellina Pro dac, and no line-out.  But it has 2 analog inputs.
   
  For $500 less, it can be configured with the single-ended stage that is also an option with the Isabellina HPA.
   
*Isabellina HPA (balanced)* -- Same LiFePO4 battery pack, SMART board, LFP-V Tube Stage, Balanced output
  stage, and internal wiring as Audeze Edition.  It can be configured with the Isabellina Pro dac (just like Audeze Edition),
  or the standard Isabellina dac.  It can also be configured with the 12Vdc output jack that the AE has.  When you configure
  it to be just like the AE, it is $3600, but unlike the AE, it does not come with the ALO Audio AE cable (which is $650 if you were
  to purchase it seperately, and it does not come with the travel case for the whole system.  And the front panel does not
  have the Audeze logo and the red knob.
   
  Again, for $500 less, it can be configured with the single-ended stage.  You also save $500 if you go with the standard Isabellina
  dac instead of the "Pro" dac which has the additional high res Wolfson d/a chip.
   
*Audeze Edition* -- Just like a fully-loaded, balanced Isabellina HPA with Isabellina Pro dac, 12Vdc output, and has the
  ALO Audio AE cable and custom travel case for $3950 (or $4900 with the LCD-2 rev. 2s).
   
   
*Isabella Preamp* (2 tubes, hi/low gain, 3 analog inputs, 2 variable outputs) -- can be ordered with the Isabellina or Isabellina Pro
  dac board, and/or the single-ended or balanced headphone stage, and/or 12Vdc output jack.  This is our best sounding headphone
  amp, but it has features that roll into the home audio territory - and is the most expensive.  But for those who want the very best,
  this is the one.
   
  If people come to the webpages of these products and click "purchase" - they can configure the options that they want and see
  what the cost is - on the fly.
   
  We had the AE Edition System and the new Corvina at the NY Headfi meet two weekends ago:
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/580037/ny-area-meet-november-12-2011-impression-thread#post_7888745
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/580037/ny-area-meet-november-12-2011-impression-thread#post_7887570
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/580037/ny-area-meet-november-12-2011-impression-thread#post_7887668
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/580037/ny-area-meet-november-12-2011-impression-thread#post_7887830
   
   
  Cheers!
   
  Vinnie


----------



## WarriorAnt

Thanks for the info Vinnie !


----------



## Girls Generation

Zana Deux or V282/4?


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





girls generation said:


> Zana Deux or V282/4?


 


  Well there is no V282.  No one really knows if it will be made not even Violectric.    Been doing some research on the ZD myself and a few folks did not like it with the LCD.  Any owners out there who feel different please comment...


----------



## leesure

Missed one, Vinnie!
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/580037/ny-area-meet-november-12-2011-impression-thread/45#post_7895295


----------



## Argo Duck

That's a really useful number to know!
   
  Thanks again for your worked example and other notes Chris J - cleared up a lot of things
  
  Quote: 





chris j said:


> <snip>
> 
> I found an article in Hi Fi World showing some measurements of some SACDs, *the highest headroom ( peak to average ratios) they found were 16 dB*.


----------



## Vinnie R.

Quote: 





leesure said:


> Missed one, Vinnie!
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/580037/ny-area-meet-november-12-2011-impression-thread/45#post_7895295


 


  Thanks, leesure!


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





argo duck said:


> That's a really useful number to know!
> 
> Thanks again for your worked example and other notes Chris J - cleared up a lot of things


 

 Hi Andre,
   
  ooops, made a mistake, data is NOT from Hi Fi World
  had to dig around in the basement..............pack rat
  the data was in "Hi Fi News" and was actually a four part article: "Audio Exposed: Power"
  July, August, September and November 2007.
  They don't actually measure too many discs:
  anyway, a few examples:
  "Fly Me To The Moon" from Sinatra - Live at The Sands DVD-A:  8dB peaks
  "Slang Of Ages" from Steely Dan's Everything Must Go DVD-A:  11 dB peaks
  "Mujaka" from The Latin Jazz Trio on DVD-A:  15 dB peaks
  They also show some data from the first Black Sabbath album on CD, seems to have very severe peak limiting: peaks less than 3-5 dB
  Rachmaninoff: Symphonic Dances, Dallas Symphony Orchestra on Classic Records DVD, peaks 15-17 dB above average level.
   
   
  Cheers,
  Chris


----------



## leesure

Rock music is the most severely compressed music in general.  5dB peaks vs average doesn't surprise me a bit.  Likewise, classical tends to feature the largest swings in general.
   
  Thanks for digging up the source!


----------



## jax

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> Well there is no V282.  No one really knows if it will be made not even Violectric.    Been doing some research on the ZD myself and a few folks did not like it with the LCD.  Any owners out there who feel different please comment...


 

 WA and GG - FWIW, I've heard the Balancing Act on two occasions now, both were less than ideal in terms of surroundings (CanJam and a local meet hooked up to a world class rig).  So take my comments with that in mind and a few grains of salt, and obviously they are just one persons opinion.  The EC Balancing Act with LCD-2's is just a wonderful pairing, to my ears.  I believe I liked it better (was more seduced and sucked in by it) than anything I heard from the LCD-3's at the Audeze table (my favorite there was the Liquid Fire which was indeed outstanding).  To be fair, and to put this in better perspective, I had to walk a short distance, wait a few minutes, settle in after a brief conversation and use a different front end, so there's a whole friggen bag of salt as far as I'm concerned.  The combination just sucked me in and rendered that suspension of disbelief I value so much in listening to music at home, as it had when I heard the same amp-headphone combo at the meet.   Only the Cavalli LCD-3 combo did that for me at their table, yet it just didn't have the same seductive powers for me in that instance with the material I listened to - again, different front ends on each of their three amps they were demoing at the Audeze table, so in my mind that is really not a valid comparison, or rather of very limited value.  I also am basing it on the experience of listening to two of the same cuts so no further more extensive direct comparisons - so, instead of a few grains, take it a large bag of rock salt like you use to melt ice with.  But just to say, with some confidence that the Balancing Act is one of several ideal partners for the LCD-2 and has made some of the best sounding reproduction of music I've heard coming from LCD-2's.  I have not heard it with the LCD-3, but can't imagine it would do any worse.  Bottom line from all of that: It's worth your consideration in that price bracket for those headphones and should be on your short list to audition...IMO.


----------



## Argo Duck

^^^ those numbers are even better Chris, thanks!


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





jax said:


> WA and GG - FWIW, I've heard the Balancing Act on two occasions now, both were less than ideal in terms of surroundings (CanJam and a local meet hooked up to a world class rig).  So take my comments with that in mind and a few grains of salt, and obviously they are just one persons opinion.  The EC Balancing Act with LCD-2's is just a wonderful pairing, to my ears.  I believe I liked it better (was more seduced and sucked in by it) than anything I heard from the LCD-3's at the Audeze table (my favorite there was the Liquid Fire which was indeed outstanding).  To be fair, and to put this in better perspective, I had to walk a short distance, wait a few minutes, settle in after a brief conversation and use a different front end, so there's a whole friggen bag of salt as far as I'm concerned.  The combination just sucked me in and rendered that suspension of disbelief I value so much in listening to music at home, as it had when I heard the same amp-headphone combo at the meet.   Only the Cavalli LCD-3 combo did that for me at their table, yet it just didn't have the same seductive powers for me in that instance with the material I listened to - again, different front ends on each of their three amps they were demoing at the Audeze table, so in my mind that is really not a valid comparison, or rather of very limited value.  I also am basing it on the experience of listening to two of the same cuts so no further more extensive direct comparisons - so, instead of a few grains, take it a large bag of rock salt like you use to melt ice with.  But just to say, with some confidence that the Balancing Act is one of several ideal partners for the LCD-2 and has made some of the best sounding reproduction of music I've heard coming from LCD-2's.  I have not heard it with the LCD-3, but can't imagine it would do any worse.  Bottom line from all of that: It's worth your consideration in that price bracket for those headphones and should be on your short list to audition...IMO.


 
  You're talking about the Balancing Act and not the Zana Duex right?


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





chris j said:


> The high gain question: because the LCD-2 is a low efficiency phone, it also needs more voltage to drive it than say a pair of other low impedance 'phones like Grados or AKG K70x or 32 ohm Beyer DT770.


 

 Drop the AKG K70x from that category, they are not very efficient and require more power than the LCD-2 to achieve the same volume.


----------



## jax

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> You're talking about the Balancing Act and not the Zana Duex right?


 


  Yes, that's right.  Did I have a brain fart?  No, wait, it was the dog!


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





jax said:


> Yes, that's right.  Did I have a brain fart?  No, wait, it was the dog!


 


  Oh man! I just euthanized one of my dogs yesterday...
   
  Anyway I can dream about the LF but the BA is out of the question.   Might as well go back to speakers!


----------



## krod3003

How does the LCD-2 pair with the SR-71b?


----------



## grokit

Sorry about your dog WA


----------



## Girls Generation

Compared to...?
  IME, it depends on your preference/taste. However, the general consesus tells us most like this portable combo above others. Just make sure you're using it balanced.
  And also keep in mind that though the SR71B may be a powerful portable amp, it still does not come close to desktop amps as far as what I've heard.
  BUT, don't let that discourage you; if portability is what you need, SR71B is viewed as one of the best according to reviewers, and my ear.
  
  Quote: 





krod3003 said:


> How does the LCD-2 pair with the SR-71b?


----------



## jax

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> Oh man! I just euthanized one of my dogs yesterday...
> 
> Anyway I can dream about the LF but the BA is out of the question.   Might as well go back to speakers!


 
   
   I'm so sorry about your dog.  We've had to do that once before and it was devastating to both of us. One of our two now is relatively young, the other, we don't know for sure but certainly acts the part. I feel it has been much easier to see them go of their own accord.  At the same time, I hope if I were to ever be in that state that someone has the guts to do that for me. 
   
  I wish I could have compared the the LF and BA side by side, but I did not get to do that.  The more compelling of the two seemed to be the BA for me, but again, different front ends, etc.  I doubt you could go wrong with either, but your wallet would feel that one for sure.


----------



## Minh3184

Quote: 





krod3003 said:


> How does the LCD-2 pair with the SR-71b?


 


  I have the balanced LCD2 r2 - CLAS - SR-71B combo. I feel it's on par with my desktop setup (Naim CD5i - GS Solo UL)  which cost me $2700. I feel it's noticeably better at seperation and impact. It's not as 'smooth' sounding though, but edgier if that makes sense.
   
  Leaning towards two different desktop amp upgrades... the V200 or Decware Mini Torii (never tried tubes, but loved the GS Solo UL's tube-like qualities)
  Any thoughts as to which of these amps would yield the biggest sonic improvement[size=large]*/*j[/size]oy from my GS Solo UL?
  I'm not an analytical listener, and  listen to all genres  =)
   
  Thanks


----------



## setamp

I have a similar question.  I have my choices to power my LCD2 limited to:

 V200 - appears to be a good match and offers the ability to go balanced.
 Mini Torii - tubes allow for fine tuning of sound.
 Beta22 - another good match and offers solid bass and slightly recessed upper mids (a sound I like).


----------



## jc9394

Quote: 





setamp said:


> I have a similar question.  I have my choices to power my LCD2 limited to:
> 
> V200 - appears to be a good match and offers the ability to go balanced.
> Mini Torii - tubes allow for fine tuning of sound.
> *Beta22 - another good match and offers solid bass and slightly recessed upper mids (a sound I like).*


 


  you can't do much better than this...


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





grokit said:


> Drop the AKG K70x from that category, they are not very efficient and require more power than the LCD-2 to achieve the same volume.


 

 Hmmmm, I guess AKG are a bit "optimistic" in their sensitivity numbers.......


----------



## HPDJ

I noticed several people mentioning the Mini Torii and although I don't have one yet mine should be here in the next couple weeks alongside some LCD 2 Rev. 2's I just got used. Some pages back, there was another person who had them on order as well...
   
  Minh3184 mentioned that he's not an analytical listener and I think I'm the same way. Once the Torii arrives, it will be a part of the desktop system I've finally been able to put together after years of reading about gear on this site and others...I just want the amp to help make the music...MUSICAL haha! Don't get me wrong, I want details like I've never heard before! But I'm not looking for "ruler-flat" or "perfect" presentations...I think chasing those things drive audiophiles mad and I don't want to do much more chasing. Time is short and my funds are not unlimited. I don't need the equipment to be a sort of X-Ray into the music either...I need some flesh and bones and I'm hoping the Torii gives me that...My taste in music is _*vast*_ as well, and the Torii seems up to the task of handling my collection..
   
  The Torii has flexibility with the option for tube rolling, of course and a defeat-able tone knob for taming hot high frequencies (just to name a few)...but also in it's ability to run speakers! This feature really appealed to me because I wanted some great speakers for my desk as well and didn't want to bye a separate amp just for my headphones. 2 for the price of 1 in a way eh?! haha...The Torii is also hand built, looks great and comes from an American company that has excellent customer service.
   
  When I called them to inquire about ordering I got a human being and then I got the owner Steve on the phone with me shortly afterwards and we spoke for 58min!! I was so impressed, and this level of service goes a long long way with folks like me. They seem very passionate about what they do and offer assuring things like 30 day guarantee's/lifetime warranties etc...I think I voided some of these assurances by getting the headphone output modification though (because it is considered a mod)...but if something is wrong or I hate it for some reason I'm confident they would reason with me.
   
  Now, I've read tons of great things about the V200 and i think if I were going solid state, it would be at the top of my list of things to audition. I'm a newbie though and have lot's to learn, but I feel good about going with the Torii and I'll definitely share my thoughts once it gets here and I've had some adequate time with it 
   
  I just wanted to jump in on the thread and give my perspective about why I went with the Torii when I could have gone with a number of other choices in it's price range 
   
  Best,
   
  -H


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





hpdj said:


> They seem very passionate about what they do and offer assuring things like 30 day guarantee's/lifetime warranties etc...I think I voided some of these assurances by getting the headphone output modification though (because it is considered a mod)...but if something is wrong or I hate it for some reason I'm confident they would reason with me.
> 
> Best,
> 
> -H


 

 Wait. What are you saying here?   You got the headphone output modification from Decware for the Mini Torii and by doing so you have voided Decwares lifetime warranty by getting one of their own modifications?


----------



## HPDJ

Ok, my fault. From the site:
   
  "Mod adds $100.00 and makes the amp non-returnable."
   
  The lifetime warranty should remain intact. But don't take my word for it, contact them if there is any confusion 
   
  -H


----------



## googleli

The Mini Torii looks nice, has anyone compared it with Liquid Fire or Balancing Act? Thanks.


----------



## Duckman

Get the BA and a Smyth Realiser and you can have any speaker system you want (so long as you can sample it).
   
  Never have to worry about speaker placement, room treatment, or sweet spots again 
  
  Quote: 





warriorant said:


> Oh man! I just euthanized one of my dogs yesterday...
> 
> Anyway I can dream about the LF but the BA is out of the question.   Might as well go back to speakers!


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





duckman said:


> Get the BA and a Smyth Realiser and you can have any speaker system you want (so long as you can sample it).
> 
> Never have to worry about speaker placement, room treatment, or sweet spots again


 
  Hows the Metric Halo LIO-8 treating you?


----------



## Duckman

Very well thanks. Its built-in amp is not indecent for the LCD2 also. But do prefer the V200 for it.


----------



## tink97

Hey guys I had mentioned a few weeks ago that I am awaiting a mini torii also.  I hope to have it soon in a few weeks also I got it with the headphone mod and speaker mod.  I liked the idea of running speakers with them and also I wanted to go back to tube sound.  I will make a review once I get it along with the Ava vision dac I have currently.
   
  Have a great day all
   
  tink97


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





tink97 said:


> Hey guys I had mentioned a few weeks ago that I am awaiting a mini torii also.  I hope to have it soon in a few weeks also I got it with the headphone mod and speaker mod.  I liked the idea of running speakers with them and also I wanted to go back to tube sound.  I will make a review once I get it along with the Ava vision dac I have currently.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Looking forward to your impressions!


----------



## setamp

I currently am running my MacMini with Audirvan > EE Minimax Dac > DV337 >Beyer T1's.  I really like this set up but was enticed into the LCD2 by all of the rave reviews.  I purchased a version 1 LCD2 and tried it with my rig and found the LCD2 to be bass light and glaring in the upper mids / lower treble.  I find my system with the T1's to be slightly on the warm side of neutral and was hoping the LCD2 would provide a little more bass weight/impact and would be slightly warmer in the upper mids.  I fould the opposite to be true.  I suspect the DarkVoice OTL is not good amp to judge the LCD2's by but now I am nervous about throwing good money after bad.  Is there an amp that will improve on my DV337/T1 combo in the areas I hope to improve (bass weight/slam and smooth/warm upper mids/lower treble)?  If I made a mistake with LCD2's I would rather cut my losses and put them up for sale.


----------



## Duckman

I assume it won't happen any time soon, but I'd love to hear a comparison betwen the Decware Taboo and the (much higher priced, I know) Balancing Act or Liquid Fire.


----------



## Argo Duck

Look here where there is a thread about the LF. Post 99 (p.7) contains some very short mention of Taboo in relation to a just arrived LF. There was one followup post a page or two later too from the same head-fier, who owns both amps.


----------



## johnwmclean

Quote: 





setamp said:


> I currently am running my MacMini with Audirvan > EE Minimax Dac > DV337 >Beyer T1's.  I really like this set up but was enticed into the LCD2 by all of the rave reviews.  I purchased a version 1 LCD2 and tried it with my rig and found the LCD2 to be bass light and glaring in the upper mids / lower treble.  I find my system with the T1's to be slightly on the warm side of neutral and was hoping the LCD2 would provide a little more bass weight/impact and would be slightly warmer in the upper mids.  I fould the opposite to be true.  I suspect the DarkVoice OTL is not good amp to judge the LCD2's by but now I am nervous about throwing good money after bad.  Is there an amp that will improve on my DV337/T1 combo in the areas I hope to improve (bass weight/slam and smooth/warm upper mids/lower treble)?  If I made a mistake with LCD2's I would rather cut my losses and put them up for sale.


 

 Contrary to the established fan base I found the DV337 a terrible amp, if fact it’s probably the worst desktop amp I’ve ever heard and owned. My first upgrade an amb M3 blew the Chinese amp completely out of the water. FYI I used premium tubes in the DV amp.


----------



## Ultrainferno

Quote: 





johnwmclean said:


> Contrary to the established fan base I found the DV337 a terrible amp, if fact it’s probably the worst desktop amp I’ve ever heard and owned. My first upgrade an amb M3 blew the Chinese amp completely out of the water. FYI I used premium tubes in the DV amp.


 
   
  Owning a 339 and never having heard the 337 I can't comment on how the 337 sounds. The 339 hower is a great amp for a lot of headphones.
  I have to admit the LCD-2 don't sound good with the 339 either, but the HE-500 sound great


----------



## jax

setamp said:


> I have a similar question.  I have my choices to power my LCD2 limited to:
> 
> V200 - appears to be a good match and offers the ability to go balanced.
> Mini Torii - tubes allow for fine tuning of sound.
> Beta22 - another good match and offers solid bass and slightly recessed upper mids (a sound I like).




The V200 does not offer balanced - it is strictly a single-ended output. You are confusing it with the V181, which does offer both.


----------



## Kremer930

My view is that the DV337 is a great amp, especially with some rolled tubes.  For cans such as the T1's and K701/2's it has wonderful texture and spaciousness.  The LCD2's are relatively efficient for orthodynamics but likely deserve more current than the 337 is designed to give.  Try a Lyr as a value option to wake up the Audezes.
  
  Quote: 





johnwmclean said:


> Contrary to the established fan base I found the DV337 a terrible amp, if fact it’s probably the worst desktop amp I’ve ever heard and owned. My first upgrade an amb M3 blew the Chinese amp completely out of the water. FYI I used premium tubes in the DV amp.


----------



## johnwmclean

Quote: 





kremer930 said:


> My view is that the DV337 is a great amp, especially with some rolled tubes.  For cans such as the T1's and K701/2's it has wonderful texture and spaciousness.  The LCD2's are relatively efficient for orthodynamics but likely deserve more current than the 337 is designed to give.  Try a Lyr as a value option to wake up the Audezes.


 


  Fair enough, I can only go from my experience which was with the HD600’s and HD650’s at the time.


----------



## Kremer930

That is surprising.  I would have guessed that the DV would deal with the HD650's quite well but cant comment as I have never tried that combo.  I do think that the LCD2 do respond well to power and the DV337 is only a max of 2 watts from memory.
  
  Quote: 





johnwmclean said:


> Fair enough, I can only go from my experience which was with the HD600’s and HD650’s at the time.


----------



## setamp

I think the DV337 is an excellent amp.  It works beautifully with my Beyer T1's.


----------



## YoengJyh

Hi Guys,
   
  How is the LCD2-r2 sound/perform without an amp at all?


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





yoengjyh said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> How is the LCD2-r2 sound/perform without an amp at all?


 


  Not recommended. It's not bad, but far from what it can do.


----------



## YoengJyh

Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> Not recommended. It's not bad, but far from what it can do.


 

 I feel that the sound quality is a bit laid back for me, any recommended good amp to make it brighter/forward?
   
  Is it a good DAC is required for LCD2?


----------



## YoengJyh

I am considering of the Lyr and NFB-10SE, which offer to good amp for LCD-2r2?


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





yoengjyh said:


> I feel that the sound quality is a bit laid back for me, any recommended good amp to make it brighter/forward?
> 
> Is it a good DAC is required for LCD2?


 

 ABSOLUTELY. The LCD-2s need a system to be built around them. They are not Bestbuy headphones that you just plug in.
   
  For a good DAC for them:
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/515586/audeze-lcd-2-source-discussion
   
  For a good AMP:
  This thread. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  But entry/mid level gear still isn't a recommended end-state for these headphones. Getting great sound from headphones like this is about the entire system: Source/DAC/AMP/Tubes (if applicable)/cables + headphones.


----------



## YoengJyh

Eh? I found out that Audio GD NFB-10SE got built in DAC as well? Correct?


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





yoengjyh said:


> Eh? I found out that Audio GD NFB-10SE got built in DAC as well? Correct?


 


  Yep...and for $500, it looks like a great match (lost of power too for these orthos).


----------



## YoengJyh

Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> Yep...and for $500, it looks like a great match (lost of power too for these orthos).


 


  Thanks! Then i would like to save my times searching around to get a great system for my LCD2-r2. End up to buy NFB-10SE via their homepage. Less headache browsing around. As a beginner, i am trying not to invest to much into this hobby.


----------



## googleli

I actually tried LCD3 straight out from the iPhone 4S and surprisingly it is not as bad as I thought. Need to turn volume way up though. I haven't tried my LCD3 on myiPhone yet, to be honest.


----------



## Br777

yeah.. the LCD-2 sounds surprisingly good straight from an ipod or clip+   of course using a good amp improves that greatly, but none the less.. an ampless LCD-2 still topples most of the other headphones i've heard even when they were amped


----------



## Raser

Im looking for an amp. My budget is aprox 500$. Im overwhelmed with options so please help me. I have looked schiit and audio gd products. Other good options?


----------



## YoengJyh

Quote: 





raser said:


> Im looking for an amp. My budget is aprox 500$. Im overwhelmed with options so please help me. I have looked schiit and audio gd products. Other good options?


 


  NFB-10SE is the best choice. Cause DAC+AMP. is DAC + PreAmp + Amp.


----------



## Raser

Quote: 





yoengjyh said:


> NFB-10SE is the best choice. Cause DAC+AMP.


 


   
   
  Is the nfb-5 pretty much the same thing? But without the balanced operation?


----------



## Argo Duck

@Raser - I don't own nor have heard the 10SE but I have followed the NFB10 thread. Almost all the pages in recent months have been about the SE. Others' impressions - olor1n [edit to fix spelling and add quest hate - not much sleep last night] and questhate have given excellent detailed reports among others - paint it as a very capable amp with a very good DAC. Using the balanced option seems to meaningfully improve sound quality, already excellent single-ended.
   
  Given your budget, it would be worth looking into this thread to see if it might have the kind of sound you want.
   
  (there was also an NFB10SE thread with good information started by LiqTenExp but discussion went back to the 10 thread).
   
  The Schiit Lyr is an excellent option - but IMHO you have to tube-roll to find its best: see the Schiit Lyr tube-rolling thread (long!!).


----------



## fabio-fi

Quote: 





raser said:


> Im looking for an amp. My budget is aprox 500$. Im overwhelmed with options so please help me. I have looked schiit and audio gd products. Other good options?


 


  If you can find a used HA-160 for $500 its a nice choice as well. If you take the solid state route...


----------



## YoengJyh

Quote: 





argo duck said:


> @Raser - I don't own nor have heard the 10SE but I have followed the NFB10 thread. Almost all the pages in recent months have been about the SE. Others' impressions - oror1n has given excellent detailed reports among others - paint it as a very capable amp with a very good DAC. Using the balanced option seems to meaningfully improve sound quality, already excellent single-ended.
> 
> Given your budget, it would be worth looking into this thread to see if it might have the kind of sound you want.
> 
> ...


 

 x2.
   
  and the Schiit Lyr is solely an amp. You may need additional DAC.


----------



## krod3003

I'm looking for a solid state home amp/dac in the 1k range and i'd like it to be balanced. I also tend to like my amps on the warmer side, but trying to stay neutral as much as possible. Any recommendations help


----------



## Raser

Quote: 





yoengjyh said:


> x2.
> 
> and the Schiit Lyr is solely an amp. You may need additional DAC.


 

 Yes the Lyr is so good looking amp that it's maybe the thing I am looking for. I currently have a Cambridge Audio Dac. But if i Buy Lyr maybe i have to buy Bifrost Aswell 
  And the Nfb10Se is nice combination for sure. But for me that button volume control is a big turn off. Dont Like it. So probably Nfb-5 would be the other option from Audio Gd.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





krod3003 said:


> I'm looking for a solid state home amp/dac in the 1k range and i'd like it to be balanced. I also tend to like my amps on the warmer side, but trying to stay neutral as much as possible. Any recommendations help


 


  The V200 has balanced inputs and single out.  It has a touch of warmth and drives the LCD's very well.   1K.


----------



## krod3003

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> The V200 has balanced inputs and single out.  It has a touch of warmth and drives the LCD's very well.   1K.


 

 Hmm yes i've looking into to that, but i'm looking for balanced output as well. Been looking at the Mini Torii, but I don't know much about tubes and I wouldn't even know which would pair up nice to the LCD-2.


----------



## olor1n

Quote: 





raser said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 The NFB-5 is comparable to the 10SE in single ended mode according to Kingwa. I found the 10SE in this mode to drive the LCD-2 with the same ease and authority as the Lyr, but with greater clarity across the spectrum. Balanced mode is where it's at though and is well worth the little extra you pay over the NFB-5.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





krod3003 said:


> Hmm yes i've looking into to that, but i'm looking for balanced output as well. Been looking at the Mini Torii, but I don't know much about tubes and I wouldn't even know which would pair up nice to the LCD-2.


 

 The Mini Torii has a reputation for sounding excellent with the LCD-2's.  I gave it much consideration but for me I'm not sure if I could caress that many tubes, so for a tube amp I've turned my attention to the Taboo which also has a good rep with the LCD-2's.  Neither amp is balanced though.   The Minii Tori tends to run $1800 to $1900 by the time you add the headphone mods to it so it's a good distance from 1K.


----------



## krod3003

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> The Mini Torii has a reputation for sounding excellent with the LCD-2's.  I gave it much consideration but for me I'm not sure if I could caress that many tubes, so for a tube amp I've turned my attention to the Taboo which also has a good rep with the LCD-2's.  Neither amp is balanced though.   The Minii Tori tends to run $1800 to $1900 by the time you add the headphone mods to it so it's a good distance from 1K.


 

 Yup all those tubes is intimidating, I don't even know what they do lol. Well 1.5k is actually my budget, but i'm just trying to see if I can save some money lol. I also don't mind buying used. I'll look into the Taboo and I see what I can find. I've also been looking into the Dared i30, but I just can't seem to find any good reviews on it using headphone. Heres a link: http://www.head-fi.org/t/524558/dared-i30


----------



## setamp

I am now driving my lcd2.1's with a Beta22 and I have to say this is one great combo. My darkvoice drove my T1's to perfection but the OTL amp was a poor match for the lcd2.  The Beta has a tubelike liquid midrange with a controlled bass.  I don't have many hours with this amp yet but I think this is a keeper.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





setamp said:


> I am now driving my lcd2.1's with a Beta22 and I have to say this is one great combo. My darkvoice drove my T1's to perfection but the OTL amp was a poor match for the lcd2.  The Beta has a tubelike liquid midrange with a controlled bass.  I don't have many hours with this amp yet but I think this is a keeper.


 

 What variation and who built the B22?


----------



## jc9394

Agreed on beta22 with LCD-2 combo, IMHO, it is the perfect match.  
   
  What dac you are feeding the beta22?


----------



## leesure

Quote: 





krod3003 said:


> Yup all those tubes is intimidating, I don't even know what they do lol. *Well 1.5k is actually my budget,* but i'm just trying to see if I can save some money lol. I also don't mind buying used. I'll look into the Taboo and I see what I can find. I've also been looking into the Dared i30, but I just can't seem to find any good reviews on it using headphone. Heres a link: http://www.head-fi.org/t/524558/dared-i30


 

 Then also consider the Red Wine Audio Corvina.  The balanced version is $1,500 and is the same amp section as the $3500 Isabellina HPA that is GREAT with the LCD's.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





leesure said:


> Then also consider the Red Wine Audio Corvina.  The balanced version is $1,500 and is the same amp section as the $3500 Isabellina HPA that is GREAT with the LCD's.


 


  Two bad it just has balanced outs.  would love it if I could go balanced out of my DAC-2 balanced into the Corvina.


----------



## jax

Quote: 





krod3003 said:


> Hmm yes i've looking into to that, but i'm looking for balanced output as well. Been looking at the Mini Torii, but I don't know much about tubes and I wouldn't even know which would pair up nice to the LCD-2.


 


  Violectric V181 has balanced in and out.  Works great with LCD2's and can recommend first hand.  I use both balanced in and out.
   
  If you are looking for a Beta22, the guy I sold mine to a bit over a year ago has recently put it on the market at a pretty attractive price here.  It is only a 3-board (singled-ended), built by Rockhopper.  I can't say how it performs with LCD-2's since I did not have them at the time, but it did very well with my HD800's and a few other cans I tried while I owned it. I have no attachment other than having sold it to the current owner and no interest in whether or not he sells it - he just happened to point it out to offer it back to me because he knew I liked it (I did not like how much space it took up though).  Anyway, good price for a Beta22 and in your original range - not sure if it is still available though.


----------



## SoundFreaq

Quote: 





jax said:


> ... put it on the market at a pretty attractive price here.


 

 link?


----------



## WarriorAnt

jax is this the B22 you speak of?
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/581371/rockhopper-b-22-note-new-price-as-of-11-22-11-is-975-firm#post_7907948


----------



## jax

Whoops, sorry for the bad link.  Yes, WA, that is the link I meant to post.  Thanks.


----------



## krod3003

i'll look into the V181, Beta22 and Red Wine Audio Corvina, btw if have you used the built in USB Dac option on the V181? Really looking for a do-it-all unit.


----------



## fishski13

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> jax is this the B22 you speak of?
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/581371/rockhopper-b-22-note-new-price-as-of-11-22-11-is-975-firm#post_7907948


 

 i would ask what type of pot/SA is has as well as what the gain is configured for.  with an SA, i wouldn't want more than a gain of 5x for the Audeze specs.  with a pot, 8x is fine.  i'm surprised it hasn't sold yet.


----------



## googleli

So far, even before full burn in, this sounds excellent to me. Honestly I haven't tried it with the LCD2 yet but it just sounds marvelous with the LCD3. You will have to tube roll a bit, and if vintage Telefunkens or Siemens are involved, may cost a bit:


----------



## jax

Quote: 





krod3003 said:


> i'll look into the V181, Beta22 and Red Wine Audio Corvina, btw if have you used the built in USB Dac option on the V181? Really looking for a do-it-all unit.


 


  You can get them to install the USB DAC option.  I don't know that they're really known for that - I've never heard it myself, and have heard nothing good nor bad about it really.  I use an Audio GD REF 8 DAC via balanced to the V181.  Not exactly a space-saving, all-in-one option, but it sure sounds great to my ears.  There are certainly lots of other good options to consider.


----------



## jax

Quote: 





fishski13 said:


> i would ask what type of pot/SA is has as well as what the gain is configured for.  with an SA, i wouldn't want more than a gain of 5x for the Audeze specs.  with a pot, 8x is fine.  i'm surprised it hasn't sold yet.


 


  I believe the gain is set for 5.  Not sure about the pot.  I'm also surprised its lasted that long at that price.


----------



## scootermafia

I sold off my Beta, why use that clunker when my iPhone gets the job done fine with my LCD3.


----------



## jax

scootermafia said:


> I sold off my Beta, why use that clunker when my iPhone gets the job done fine with my LCD3.




 I prefer a Close-N-Play Turntable - the amp section is awesome! Just pull the wires off the speaker terminals and rig up your 1/4" jack. Close it, it stops. Open it, it plays. All in one simple box. There's even colorful illustrations on the side. Nothing like vintage vinyl. Ever her Burl Ives do Puff the Magic Dragon?


----------



## KimbaWLion

I just got my LCD 2rev.1s for a GREAT price from a fellow headfier  My Shellbrook Maxihead Signature JUST gave up the ghost. ( at some point  I AM going to try and get it fixed it 
  is an AWESOME amp and has served me for a FEW years! )
   
  I was curious about either an inexpensive balanced vs a inexpensive standard amp.
   
  Price is HUGE issue with me and I am trying to keep things around the +/- $600 mark, I mean yes I know there a LOTS of Amps but from what I have read all I have narrowed my 
  choices to either an Ibasso PB4 +D2 for $544 or one of the Schiit amps which are ALL under the $500 mark but IF I chose an Asagard and add a BiFrost its $595. ( or maybe even an Emotiva DAC for $249)
   
  OR should I just use what I have which is basically the computer and soundcard and wait and see what Schiit does and see how expensive their new balanced amp is which I can guess 
  is going to be MORE than $600 and save... I use it for some music which is progressive rock/classic rock, anime music (I collect anime OSTs yes I KNOW I am odd its all good), I also
  listen to classical such as Sibelius and Mussorsky. I am ALL over the map. I JUST can not spend 1K or more for an amp I have issues that will always prevent that! 
  I am VERY fortunate to own a pair of LCD 2s at all regardless of Revision! I am going to spring for a cable and I am budgeting around $200 for that, it does not matter if there are better
  its good to know my limits and I DO know them. Their may be better amps cables etc. but its not going to be in the budget..
   
  HELP? There are times I HATE being a Black and White engineer, which speakers and amps full sized I never had it hard.


----------



## WarriorAnt

If memory serves me correctly the folks here have said the Asgard is not a good match for the LCD-2.  Maybe someone can chime in on that.


----------



## googleli

For amps at that price range, the Lyr is a good choice based on my audition. Cables at $200 - you can't go wrong with Norse or Q based on impressions here but I have not tried Q by myself. You will have to factor in source - the CLAS did a pretty good job for me for the LCD2. If you already have an iPhone, the CLAS may be a good choice for source. Congratulations on getting the LCD2 - considering my first headphone is the ED10 you should consider yourself a very lucky person...

  
  Quote: 





kimbawlion said:


> I just got my LCD 2rev.1s for a GREAT price from a fellow headfier  My Shellbrook Maxihead Signature JUST gave up the ghost. ( at some point  I AM going to try and get it fixed it
> is an AWESOME amp and has served me for a FEW years! )
> 
> I was curious about either an inexpensive balanced vs a inexpensive standard amp.
> ...


----------



## KimbaWLion

Having done a bit of research it will be a Q or Norse one of my friends has a Q and LOVES it. I emailed Trevor and got his prices so we'll have to see...
   
  I have read about the Lyr too but I figured a SS state is not always a bad choice and if you toss in the Bifrost it would make a nice combo!
  I have also read the Ibasso combo works pretty well too! So its touch choice single or balanced or wait... The cable is a definite because to be honest
  my Meridian makes either my Sen 600s or LCD-2s sound pretty darn good so I think a cable would help that, and the amp I can afford to really take my time about.
  I KNOW many disagree with that saying get the amp first, its all good but I never was the normal sort!


----------



## Questhate

@KimbaWLion
   
  Have you looked at the Audio-GD NFB-10SE? It's both a DAC and amp and within your price limit (around $600 shipped). The few people who've compared them seem to prefer it to the Lyr. It's also has both balanced and single-ended output options.


----------



## drez

A lot depends on your preferred presentation - the NFB-10 SE is incredible (have been testing it the last few days), however you may be able to achieve a leaner, more edgy presentation with other gear if that suits your taste, although likely inferior in terms of overall sound quality and for more money...
   
  I should probably add that the the NFB-10 SE is an excellent implementation of the WM8471.  I would say that the NFB-10 SE is neutral but refined, and still very revealing.  I would look elsewhere only if you are a detail junky...


----------



## KimbaWLion

WOW that looks like an amazing buy for the money!!! Its in the $$$ range, the specs look good and people here like it! (been looking at 2 different threads)
  I had not heard of the company or that Amp before! That's why I love this place! Here I was thinking I going to this and it looks like I am going to go 
  a  COMPLETELY different way! Nothing new there! I was thinking Schiit because I am very familiar with their designers previous work PLUS its 100% made in the USA too. I read that the Ibasso
  combo worked well with the LCD-2s. From what I seeso far unless somebody offers a different/better suggestion this WILL be the amp I end up with!!!


----------



## googleli

But I strongly suggest just add a little bit more to your budget and get the Liquid Fire instead.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





googleli said:


> But I strongly suggest just add a little bit more to your budget and get the Liquid Fire instead.





   
  You could get a half dozen NFB-10SE's for the price of a LF, that's hardly a "little bit more" plus you'd still need a DAC and according to you tubes as well


----------



## olor1n

Quote: 





googleli said:


> But I strongly suggest just *add a little bit more to your budget and get the Liquid Fire instead.*


 

 Lol googleli. What you consider a "little bit more" is a small fortune for others.


----------



## KimbaWLion

Quote: 





googleli said:


> But I strongly suggest just add a little bit more to your budget and get the Liquid Fire instead.


 


  It looks like an AMAZING amp for 3K, for me it's just not possible with my current finances now or in the future (sick wife, daughter in  college). I bet it sounds as good as it looks but it will be for others.
  I DO like your taste though!


----------



## Questhate

For someone with a $20k CD player, that $2,500 difference is chump change for googleli.


----------



## krod3003

Quote: 





questhate said:


> For someone with a $20k CD player, that $2,500 difference is chump change for googleli.


 
   
  Lolz, so true. I'm still a fan though googleli and take your opinions to heart. And you know what they say "Haterz Gonna Hate" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Anyways been looking at the Decware Taboo, just doesn't seem to fit my do-it-all solution. Just might have to give up going balanced for the mean time and look at other DAC/Amp Combos.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





googleli said:


> But I strongly suggest just add a little bit more to your budget and get the Liquid Fire instead.


 


  googleli you're too funny!  Good advice though.


----------



## KimbaWLion

Quote: 





questhate said:


> For someone with a $20k CD player, that $2,500 difference is chump change for googleli.


 

 Well its good its chump change for somebody! I am glad he can get it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   


  Quote: 





krod3003 said:


> Lolz, so true. I'm still a fan though googleli and take your opinions to heart. And you know what they say "Haterz Gonna Hate"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I am never jealous or hateful of what others have, just was not raised like that though I am pretty sure not everybody thinks like that!
  Decware Taboo looks awesome too!


----------



## krod3003

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *KimbaWLion* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Well its good its chump change for somebody! I am glad he can get it.
> 
> ...


 

 Forgive me, I didn't mean it that way. I just a term the kids say now and days for laughs.
  
  16 Fine Examples:
http://www.smosh.com/smosh-pit/photos/16-haters-gonna-hate-gifs
   
  Back on topic indeed the Taboo looks good. But I think i'm gonna wait and see what comes out for the hollidays in the mean time.


----------



## KimbaWLion

I was ALSO just reading that Schiit is going to have a mid tier balanced Amp/Dac for around $750 +/- SOME time in the first quarter of 2012. It may pay to wait since $750 is only a little more than I want to spend
  let alone have to spend. Macaroni, PB&J, Garden burgers, and Omelets for an extra month or 2? Not really sure my wife is going to like that...
   
  That $600 was a PRETTY firm number sorry Googleli that Liquid Fire is JUST not going to be in my future...


----------



## googleli

I thought so myself too... I did tell myself that the LCD3 would be my last headphone-related purchase in 2011... and... dude...
   
  I always think that buying the top dollar thing would actually save me a lot in the long run. Coz when you have more financial freedom you kind of can't resist the urge of upgrading. That is a philosophy I developed during my IEM journey - spending quite a bit on many different universal IEMs (er6i, er4p, SE530, Westone 3, Westone 4, Ortofon eQ7, ATH CK100, TF10 Pro) only to find that customs can be so much better (for me anyway).  Why not just go for the top and settle with it then move on? As I will next year - onto something more important in life but at the same time start to actually enjoy a lot of music with my current gear. Of course "top" is different to everyone, and expensive stuff doesn't necessarily sound good to you, or sound good at all. But luckily you have others' opinions to rely on to get a feel of what would suit you and what would really be "top" to you.
   
  That philosophy held true for me in my one-year head-fi journey which has been very exciting and in the end very satisfying.- except for my first headphone purchase - the Edition 10 - EPIC FAIL, DUDE (with some qualifications - but let's talk about the ED10 in another thread). To avoid that, read a lot of Head-fi I guess. And from the impressions on Head-fi so far the Liquid Fire is something that stands out among other amps for the LCD3, or at least on par with the top ones mentioned here. And if you take my word seriously (I know many don't), I think the Liquid Fire is at least on par with, if not surpassing the no. 1 tube amp in Skylab's tube amp list. I still need to hit the "magic" 150 hours on the LF to tell for sure, but so far it does look (sound) very promising against the Leben. 
   
  Quote: 





kimbawlion said:


> I was ALSO just reading that Schiit is going to have a mid tier balanced Amp/Dac for around $750 +/- SOME time in the first quarter of 2012. It may pay to wait since $750 is only a little more than I want to spend
> let alone have to spend. Macaroni, PB&J, Garden burgers, and Omelets for an extra month or 2? Not really sure my wife is going to like that...
> 
> That $600 was a PRETTY firm number sorry Googleli that Liquid Fire is JUST not going to be in my future...


----------



## KimbaWLion

Quote: 





googleli said:


> I thought so myself too... I did tell myself that the LCD3 would be my last headphone-related purchase in 2011... and... dude...
> 
> I always think that buying the top dollar thing would actually save me a lot in the long run. Coz when you have more financial freedom you kind of can't resist the urge of upgrading. That is a philosophy I developed during my IEM journey - spending quite a bit on many different universal IEMs (er6i, er4p, SE530, Westone 3, Westone 4, Ortofon eQ7, ATH CK100, TF10 Pro) only to find that customs can be so much better (for me anyway).  Why not just go for the top and settle with it then move on? As I will next year - onto something more important in life but at the same time start to actually enjoy a lot of music with my current gear. Of course "top" is different to everyone, and expensive stuff doesn't necessarily sound good to you, or sound good at all. But luckily you have others' opinions to rely on to get a feel of what would suit you and what would really be "top" to you.
> 
> That philosophy held true for me in my one-year head-fi journey which has been very exciting and in the end very satisfying.- except for my first headphone purchase - the Edition 10 - EPIC FAIL, DUDE (with some qualifications - but let's talk about the ED10 in another thread). To avoid that, read a lot of Head-fi I guess. And from the impressions on Head-fi so far the Liquid Fire is something that stands out among other amps for the LCD3, or at least on par with the top ones mentioned here. And if you take my word seriously (I know many don't), I think the Liquid Fire is at least on par with, if not surpassing the no. 1 tube amp in Skylab's tube amp list. I still need to hit the "magic" 150 hours on the LF to tell for sure, but so far it does look (sound) very promising against the Leben.


 


  In my youth before my marriage and my daughter I use to upgrade ALL the time! I have owned Electrocompaniet, Van Alstine and few other rather pricy pieces of gear over the years. I find when I get something and I like it I keep it for YEARS and YEARS! I have had my HD 600s since they came out, oh what seems to be so long ago now.  I have my amp for a few years too but time marches on and its time to get another and move up. I have wanted to get Stax forever but not to digress TOO much into my personal life I have a VERY ill wife and even with insurance I pay out OVER 10K a year. When the LCD-2s popped on for sale a VERY good number I figured what the heck, you only life once ( or twice if you're a Bond Fan) I got them. I took money that I hope I can replace in 2-3 months and decided a $200 dollar cable is in order so that is being done. The Amp is SO tricky, so many to chose, all with different signatures and sound etc. I always try to go for the one with the MOST bang for the buck because UNLESS I get really lucky or save especially hard its not going to happen.
   
  I love Hi End gear as much as ANYBODY and have owned it and still do! BUT with the aforementioned sick wife and my 18 year old in college starting this year, a $3250 purchase for an Amp is just NOT possible or wise for me! I have little doubt its better than whatever I end up with but you have to ask yourself sometimes HOW MUCH is it better and is that amount of better worth it to you! I have been around this place for awhile and I have seen many things come and go. I remember when Single Power was all that and a bag of chips and looked what happened with him! I know this much, whatever I get I will be VERY happy with! I will never be jealous of another gear because somebody will always have better! I just have to love what I have! You have some AMAZING gear and I hope you enjoy it, you don't its a total waste of your time, energy, and money! I think you do so its all good! I enjoy reading your posts and well as few others. I will always love this hobby too, its always evolving and there is always something new! When I DO get an amp I bet I love it and use it for a VERY long time and that's the whole point!  
   
  NOW do I wait for the Schiit or just get the NFB-10SE or a different one! Sorry for the long posting, Extroverted Engineers are a dangerous breed indeed..


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote: 





raser said:


> Im looking for an amp. My budget is aprox 500$. Im overwhelmed with options so please help me. I have looked schiit and audio gd products. Other good options?


 

 In that price range the Lyr would be my choice. As much as I love the HiFiman EF5 amp with the HiFiMan headphones, the LCD-2 were a bit better with the Lyr in terms of synergy and balance.  I don't know if the LCD-2 I used with it at RMAF were rev1 or rev 2 though.


----------



## krod3003

Anyone ever try the LCD-2 with RSA The Apache?


----------



## obazavil

LCD2 + Schiit Lyr (Lorenz tubes)+ Q cable is epic eargasm


----------



## buson160man

I am not familar with the apache but i have used my ray samuels raptor otl amp with my lcd-2 rev 2 phone and it drives it very well.The raptor has good tonality and has good spatial qualities with the lcd2 imho.I also have a burson ha-160 and it is also a good partner for the lcd-2 rev2 phone.The burson has exceptional image definition with the lcd-2 and good dimensionality as well.I have to admit that i thought the image definition on the burson was better imho.The burson also seems to be somewhat louder due to the rapid ramp up of volume with the stepped attenuator.Sometimes it is hard to find the right level for a particular recording one step is a little to low and the next step is a little to high(frustating at times).With the raptor you do not have that problem it uses a regular pot.I hope these opinions will help.                                                                            buson 160man


----------



## grokit

I have read nothing but excellent impressions of the LCD-2 out of the Apache


----------



## krod3003

Quote: 





buson160man said:


> I am not familar with the apache but i have used my ray samuels raptor otl amp with my lcd-2 rev 2 phone and it drives it very well.The raptor has good tonality and has good spatial qualities with the lcd2 imho.I also have a burson ha-160 and it is also a good partner for the lcd-2 rev2 phone.The burson has exceptional image definition with the lcd-2 and good dimensionality as well.I have to admit that i thought the image definition on the burson was better imho.The burson also seems to be somewhat louder due to the rapid ramp up of volume with the stepped attenuator.Sometimes it is hard to find the right level for a particular recording one step is a little to low and the next step is a little to high(frustating at times).With the raptor you do not have that problem it uses a regular pot.I hope these opinions will help.                                                                            buson 160man


 

 Then I will put The Apache on my list of things to buy.


----------



## setamp

Sorry for replying so late:

 The Beta22 I purchased was a FallenAngel built 3 board unit.  It is the first ss amp I have owned since 1970 and I think it could pass as a tube amp in a blind test.

 My current system is 2010 Mac Mini (Audirvana Plus) >JK Mk3>  EE Minimax Dac > Beta22 > LCD2.1

 My next step is to audition some cables but I'm liking this setup.  My bass is deep and controlled and mids are beautiful.  The sound is somewhat laid back but still engaging.


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





krod3003 said:


> Anyone ever try the LCD-2 with RSA The Apache?


 

 I used to own the Apache and personally it's the best I've heard the LCD-2 sound. I've heard pretty much every amp out there with the exception of the pinnacle.
  The Apache sounded even better when I paired it with my tube dac(Havana)


----------



## krod3003

Quote: 





brasewel said:


> I used to own the Apache and personally it's the best I've heard the LCD-2 sound. I've heard pretty much every amp out there with the exception of the pinnacle.
> The Apache sounded even better when I paired it with my tube dac(Havana)


 

 I was hoping you'd read my post 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Well what sonic qualities made it the best?


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





ianmedium said:


> Oh you enabler you!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  I think i get the enabling thing from my wife. she's trying to enable me to buy the Liquid fire.


----------



## WNBC

Have your wife call my wife 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  Quote: 





warriorant said:


> I think i get the enabling thing from my wife. she's trying to enable me to buy the Liquid fire.


----------



## MorbidToaster

CAN'T DECIDE WHAT AMP TO BUY. AHHHHHHHHHH...
   
  Quote: 





warriorant said:


> I think i get the enabling thing from my wife. she's trying to enable me to buy the *Liquid fire.*


----------



## scootermafia

Have YBM build you a B22.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





wnbc said:


> Have your wife call my wife


 
  I have the perfect audiophile wife.  If she knows I'll like something she tells me to get it.  There's a lot of "just get it" over the years, then I'm left on my own to make rational decisions and what audiophile can do that?


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





scootermafia said:


> Have YBM build you a B22.


 


  who is YBM?


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





krod3003 said:


> I was hoping you'd read my post
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Well the differences between the top tier amps are very subtle. I once spent an hour or so comparing my amp with the Audeze RWA Isabellina and the only differences I could dissern was soundstage and detail. The Apache is an extremely detailed amp(maybe too detailed if that's possible 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) and responds very well to the source. Soundstage is wide and puts you a couple rows back from the performers.
  The differences between the Apache and the Apex Peak/Volcano are almost impossible to differentiate. The Apache probably reproduced the sound of the guitar a little better while the P/V did a little better on the piano.
  It took me a while to find the correct dac to pair it with since it sounded a little too SS for my tastes. With the Havana, you would be hard-pressed to tell it was a SS amp.
 The reason I preferred it was because it had the detail, soundstage and slam I want in my music and responded well to the source.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





brasewel said:


> I used to own the Apache and personally it's the best I've heard the LCD-2 sound. I've heard pretty much every amp out there with the exception of the pinnacle.
> The Apache sounded even better when I paired it with my tube dac(Havana)


 

 You sold it!


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> You sold it!


 

 Yes I have become a speaker man now 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 That's the only reason I sold it.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





brasewel said:


> Yes I have become a speaker man now


 

 Oh don't rub it in!  How I miss my speakers...


----------



## brasewel

I still use my LCD-2 (using my receiver as the amp now), but only at night. There's nothing like the bass of a good subwoofer hitting your chest.


----------



## Stevtt

Sold it to me. This has become part of my vinyl setup.


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





stevtt said:


> Sold it to me.


 

 Hope you are enjoying it?


----------



## Stevtt

This thing is amazing. I'm waiting on my new cables so I listened single ended with my ES-5's. The first thing that hit me was bass impact, soundstage and instrument placement. Tomorrow I'll start with balanced cables and LCD's on my vinyl. All indications are I e found my amp.


----------



## brasewel

Play with the gain settings. I preferred to use medium gain when using balanced cables as it provided the right impact and sound for me.


----------



## HK_sends

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> who is YBM?


 
  I think he means these guys:
   
http://ybmaudio.com/products.html
   
  Cheers!
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  -HK sends


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





hk_sends said:


> I think he means these guys:
> 
> http://ybmaudio.com/products.html
> 
> ...


 
  Good to know.  There are so many people making them.


----------



## scootermafia

If by so many, you mean, he's the only commercial builder I know of.


----------



## krod3003

you guys make my decisions harder -____-


----------



## dagothur

I'm thinking of possibly upgrading my amp/source in the near future.  I currently have the Nuforce Icon HDP.  Should I upgrade to the Audio GD NFB 10SE, or the Burson HA-160D?


----------



## drez

IMO the Burson is overpriced and overhyped compared to the Audio-GD.  Once upon a time it was the best you could get for $1000, but that is not the case anymore.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





scootermafia said:


> If by so many, you mean, he's the only commercial builder I know of.


 
   
   I didn't know that either.  
   
  I recently was given this website also.
   
  http://solderworksaudio.com/About.html


----------



## MorbidToaster

That silver / handled B22 is sexy. Mmmm. 
   
  I'd really like to get a B22 done...I should really send one of these guys a mail. See if they'll do a fully balanced B22/O22 with pre outs...
   
  Well, get it priced out anyway.
  
  Quote: 





warriorant said:


> I didn't know that either.
> 
> I recently was given this website also.
> 
> http://solderworksaudio.com/About.html


----------



## scootermafia

I shot the solderworks guy an email, I get a lot of people asking me about B22 so it's nice to know what they run.  It's about $3k for a fairly well-equipped one from Ying (YBM).  He wanted about $1500 to re-case my B22 (basically I provide the 4 boards and power supply, he provides the rest + assembles it).  I ended up doing it myself (see sig) and it turned out just fine.


----------



## MorbidToaster

Wonder what he'd charge to give me some ridonk ricer LED case...
   
  In all seriousness though I'd like to get a glowing volume pot. :3
  
  Quote: 





scootermafia said:


> I shot the solderworks guy an email, I get a lot of people asking me about B22 so it's nice to know what they run.  It's about $3k for a fairly well-equipped one from Ying (YBM).  He wanted about $1500 to re-case my B22 (basically I provide the 4 boards and power supply, he provides the rest + assembles it).  I ended up doing it myself (see sig) and it turned out just fine.


----------



## drez

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> That silver / handled B22 is sexy. Mmmm.
> 
> I'd really like to get a B22 done...I should really send one of these guys a mail. See if they'll do a fully balanced B22/O22 with pre outs...
> 
> Well, get it priced out anyway.


 

 Let me know what you decide to spec these out with - I have been flirting with the idea of building a B22 but don't have the cash (or the knowledge) to get started at the moment, but I will get there if it means reading an entire EE textbook.


----------



## MorbidToaster

I've admired all the Betas around here for years now. I'd love to get one done / do one myself and now would be the time to do it...
   
  I'd pretty much want it completely pimped out as it'd be my TOTL, but I'll shoot one of them an email and see.
   
  EDIT: Does anyone do Buffalo DACs anymore? Or is there some DIY DAC that performs in the range of the W4S DAC 2? Getting the same case across the board would be amazing. 
  
  Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *drez* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Let me know what you decide to spec these out with - I have been flirting with the idea of building a B22 but don't have the cash (or the knowledge) to get started at the moment, but I will get there if it means reading an entire EE textbook.


----------



## googleli

I seriously suggest those who are looking into DACs from Burson, Lavry and Benchmark to take a further look and try to listen to the Grace M903 which is at a simlar price range.  I have side by side compared the above amps and the result to me is very clear which one is the best.


----------



## WarriorAnt

jc9394 posted these photos of his new B22 from Solderworks.   It looks beautiful.   You might want to shoot him a PM.


----------



## sridhar3

I think Rockhopper does B22 builds as well.


----------



## dagothur

Quote: 





googleli said:


> I seriously suggest those who are looking into DACs from Burson, Lavry and Benchmark to take a further look and try to listen to the Grace M903 which is at a simlar price range.  I have side by side compared the above amps and the result to me is very clear which one is the best.


 


  The Grace is ~$800 more expensive than the HA-160D, DA10 or Dac1.  I would love to try the Grace, but it's too far out of my budget and isn't a combo.


----------



## scootermafia

Rockhopper hasn't been in business for a year and a half.  The guy Stephen built me an M3 a long long time ago, wish there were more good builders to choose from now.


----------



## cifani090

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> jc9394 posted these photos of his new B22 from Solderworks.   It looks beautiful.   You might want to shoot him a PM.


 

 I think you meant Woo posted pictures of his new B22


----------



## grokit

The M903 certainly is a combo, if you mean DAC and amp. It's probably worth the extra $ but if on a budget I don't see how the NFB-10SE can be beat for over $1K less.
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/521166/grace-design-m903-reference-headphone-amplifier-dac-monitor-controller


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





cifani090 said:


> I think you meant Woo posted pictures of his mew B22


 

 Huh?  Oh I see!


----------



## jc9394

Quote: 





grokit said:


> The M903 certainly is a combo, if you mean DAC and amp. It's probably worth the extra $ but if on a budget I don't see how the NFB-10ES can be beat for over $1K less.
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/521166/grace-design-m903-reference-headphone-amplifier-dac-monitor-controller


 


  Unless the 903 is significantly better than 902, I don't like the 902 at all.  Much prefer the Lavry DA11.  
   
  X2 on the 10SE, for $500 balanced amp and DAC, you simply can't go wrong with it.


----------



## MorbidToaster

Off Topic but I know some of you wanted to know B22 prices. From what it sounds like the entire (TOTL) shebang would be about $3900. 
   
  This would give me:
  B22
  Sigma 22 PSU (x2)
  1 RCA in
  1 XLR in
  1 3 Pin XLR Out
  1 4 Pin XLR Out
  Input Switch (3 inputs)
  SE Out
  PSU Upgrades
  1 RCA Pre Out
  1 XLR Pre Out
   
  This quote was from YBM and I pretty much went for every option out under the sun. Base price for a Balanced Beta was $2550.


----------



## WNBC

So does that mean green light on the B22 TOTL 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  Or go for some fire, Liquid Fire 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> Off Topic but I know some of you wanted to know B22 prices. From what it sounds like the entire (TOTL) shebang would be about $3900.
> 
> This would give me:
> B22
> ...


----------



## MorbidToaster

I need to discuss a little more with YBM and maybe cut costs by removing SE and stuff like that but I like the idea of the Beta. I did email Brian yesterday to get a loaner LF though so we'll see.
  
  Edit: the other thing to consider is that the stand alone Pre from W4S is 2k. If I'm looking at 4k anyway I coukd gut the B22 and do headamp only and get the W4S pre later...
  Quote: 





wnbc said:


> So does that mean green light on the B22 TOTL
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Icenine2

x2 Liquid Fire


----------



## Stevtt

I had actually been eyeing that pre-amp myself


----------



## MorbidToaster

I'd planned too do my entire system W4S. Pre, Monos, DAC. 
   
  Look like I might just stick with the plan and keep everything seperate. Go for the headamp first. The choice only gets harder then though. Beta? LF? Darkstar? 
   
  First world problems.
  
  Quote: 





stevtt said:


> I had actually been eyeing that pre-amp myself


----------



## scootermafia

The B22 is just a God-mode amp without a whole lot of peers.  It has a super clean neutral sound with the raw power to push every headphone to the max.  However, some people find that tubes are more "fun," I guess it is for die hard solid state fans.  I can't find any fault with my B22, have you seen me upgrading my headphone amp recently?


----------



## MorbidToaster

I usually prefer SS. I need some Darkstar vs Beta action up in here.
  Quote: 





scootermafia said:


> The B22 is just a God-mode amp without a whole lot of peers.  It has a super clean neutral sound with the raw power to push every headphone to the max.  However, some people find that tubes are more "fun," I guess it is for die hard solid state fans.  I can't find any fault with my B22, have you seen me upgrading my headphone amp recently?


----------



## WNBC

Would love to hear one of these B22.  Price-wise, a little more than I want to spend so I ended up with a V200.  Probably not easy to build as a first time DIY project.
  
  Quote: 





scootermafia said:


> The B22 is just a God-mode amp without a whole lot of peers.  It has a super clean neutral sound with the raw power to push every headphone to the max.  However, some people find that tubes are more "fun," I guess it is for die hard solid state fans.  I can't find any fault with my B22, have you seen me upgrading my headphone amp recently?


----------



## Stevtt

I ended up with an apache. Going to use the balanced pre to a pair of monoblocks sooner or later. I have the turntable and DAC ran through it.


----------



## MorbidToaster

This is my other option. How do you like your apache?
  
  Quote: 





stevtt said:


> I ended up with an apache. Going to use the balanced pre to a pair of monoblocks sooner or later. I have the turntable and DAC ran through it.


----------



## MorbidToaster

What I really want is an Apache vs Darkstar vs Beta write up. If the Apache and Darkstar are fairly similar I'd just go best value and get the Apache. But if one of the 3k headamp only shines true over the Apache i'd just go full seperates.
  
  Quote: 





stevtt said:


> I love it. I've only had it for a couple day. Using it for headphones and as a pre-amp. But I always have been partial to Rays amps.


----------



## scootermafia

They are very different and all well regarded.  The B22 has 3 varieties of transistor in it, while the RSA gear uses op amps - different approaches but they're all damned powerful amps.  There's probably someone on head-fi that's heard all 3 in close succession...


----------



## scootermafia

The wiring on the B22 is pretty simple, I had no trouble doing that myself.  And the Par-Metal people did all my cutouts for about $50.  I used nylon adhesive standoffs so that I didn't have to drill out the bottom of the amp in 50 places (lazy).  The power button is a Bulgin stainless steel, standard Neutrik jacks front & back, Furutech fused IEC inlet, Goldpoint volume knob, Quad Alps Blue Velvet pot.  I don't actually think assembling it would be too bad now that I've spent so much time fiddling with my Beta - since I had to move it from its original case that it was in when AtomikPi sold it to me - tuning everything up once the boards are stuffed is what I'd be worried about, setting all the trimmers etc etc.


----------



## grokit

That's what I meant, the SE, not ES


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





icenine2 said:


> x2 Liquid Fire


 


  I curse you Icenine2!  Each time you tempt the LF I crack a little bit more...


----------



## googleli

The LF is so good now even without full burn in yet. But I guess not everyone wants to spend the cost of half of the amp to get hold of NOS Telefunken CCa tubes as I did... Once you get that though, you may never want to go back to the JJ's. I may eventually get some Siemens CCa tubes as well, but now, with the Rega Saturn -> Liquid Fire -> ALO 16 wire LCD3 cable -> LCD3, I just get the best sound I could afford in an office setting. The Liquid Fire, although being a tube-SS hybrid amp, is more powerful than any SS head amps I have auditioned - yet having that liquidity you find in tube amps. Just so dead neutral and natural to my ears, and at the same time with a sense of energy so strong that everything else (especially my previous portable setups) seems underpowered in comparison.


----------



## Austin Morrow

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> What I really want is an *Apache vs Darkstar vs Beta write up*. If the Apache and Darkstar are fairly similar I'd just go best value and get the Apache. But if one of the 3k headamp only shines true over the Apache i'd just go full seperates.


 


  I can arrange that.


----------



## scootermafia

The shipping fees would be legendary, unless you could arrange it locally.  I bet Ray would like to see his top amps go toe to toe with the B22...


----------



## MorbidToaster

Within the next month and a half would be ideal, but I'd love to hear it either way. That's the big 3 I'm curious about. I know the LF sounds good already, but I'd rather stick to SS.
  
  Quote: 





austin morrow said:


> *I can arrange that.*


----------



## Austin Morrow

Quote: 





scootermafia said:


> The shipping fees would be legendary, unless you could arrange it locally.  I bet Ray would like to see his top amps go toe to toe with the B22...


 


  Yeah. I'd love to test the Darkstar against the Liquid Fire and the Manley Stringray. Two of my favorite amps that I absolutely love in my heart. I haven't heard the B22. Still waiting for it to show up at a meet one of these days...


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





austin morrow said:


> Yeah. I'd love to test the Darkstar against the Liquid Fire and the Manley Stringray. Two of my favorite amps that I absolutely love in my heart. I haven't heard the B22. Still waiting for it to show up at a meet one of these days...


 

 I don't know for sure but I bet the Manley Stringray would win that contest...


----------



## sridhar3

Quote:


warriorant said:


> I don't know for sure but I bet the Manley Stringray would win that contest...


 

 I've always wanted to hear the Manley Stingray II or the NeoClassic 300B RC Preamplifier.  Manley was a no-show at RMAF 2011, sadly enough.  Someday, perhaps.
   
  I'm a bit torn about the Dark Star.  When I heard it, it sounded awesome with the HE-6, but at the same time, it's still basically a gainclone in a fancy case.  I don't know if I can psychologically get around that and shell out $3k+ for a chipamp.


----------



## Currawong

For those of you following this thread, but not the other threads, I've moved two pages of posts here.


----------



## MorbidToaster

We got a bit carried away. 
   
  To all the people not involved earlier...Someone give me Apache v DarkStar v B22. 
  Quote: 





currawong said:


> For those of you following this thread, but not the other threads, I've moved two pages of posts here.


----------



## johnwmclean

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> We got a bit carried away.
> 
> To all the people not involved earlier...Someone give me Apache v DarkStar v B22.


 


  I think we can safely say that RSA and AMB have entirely different ideologies, the two companies are incomparable.
   
  RSA’s amps are hidden behind very ostentatious cases, certainly eye candy appealing. The specifications aren’t teeming with information, there’s little photography of internal components, the circuits and schematics are proprietary owned. Nothing unique here, a lot of other companies operate the same way. I personally would not buy an amp from a company that operates this way, that’s just me.
   
  On the other hand AMB’s designs, circuits and schematics are completely open to the public, the specifications and benchmarks are well documented. AMB contributes to wide DIY community of enthusiasts, the β22 has been around since 2006, it’s certainly not a flavour of the month product, having achieved what was proposed, a reference high end headphone it remains as it was 6 years ago.
   
  Comparisons between RSA amps and the β22 may prove difficult to find, if you could DIY a β22 why would you buy commercial gear?
   
  Further reading, taken from AMBs website, for those interested to know a little history about the β22;
   
   


Spoiler: %CE%B222%20history



 
 Project history & acknowledgements  Having been an active participant in several DIY audio and headphone related forums for a few years, and launching the successful M³ headphone amp project (with Morsel, the other member of Team M³) in 2004, I felt that the time is ripe for a "bigger brother" to the M³. While the M³ is an excellent amplifier, it was designed with a keen eye towards high price/performance ratio. The new amplifier would instead push much farther into the high-end, where cost and complexity concerns are less of a constraint. Nevertheless, I am a pragmatic designer and I don't like high cost and complexity as an end to itself. Thus was born the β22 amplfier project and its companion power supply, the σ22. 

 I had long been fond of using power MOSFETs as output devices. The β22 and σ22 follow the footsteps of the M³ in applying these devices to good use, this time pushing the bar even higher. All-discrete and complementary topologies and a number of other design highlights contribute to lower distortion, higher output, wider bandwidth, and most importantly, better music. 

 The β22 amplifier topology had actually been in gestation for several years prior to my announcement on headwize.com. I had shown various iterations of the schematic diagram to visitors at my "mini-meets", but other projects had taken precedence until September 2006, when I decided to let the cat out of the bag, and turn this project to reality. 

 Elements of the β22 design were direct beneficiaries of work done in the past by Erno Borbely, W. Marshall Leach, Nelson Pass, John Curl, Richard Marsh, Walt Jung, James Bongiorno, Douglas Self, Rod Elliot, and others. These gentlemen have generously published their insights and the state of audio art had advanced because of them. 

 Unlike past projects, I took full advantage of PSPICE simulation in the design phase of the β22 and σ22. This is partly because of the all-discrete nature of these projects, and also due to my acquisition of the OrCAD software suite. It turned out that simulations paid big dividends in allowing me to explore the effects of various design elements, and made it possible for me to tune the circuit without having built a real prototype. Changing something and seeing the result is a snap, which would have been cumbersome and expensive with real circuits. In fact, instead of the usual breadboard prototype, I went from simulation directly to a prototype PCB. 

 Actual circuit testing is still of paramount importance, of course, because simulations do not account for all real-world issues. I was pleasantly surprised, though, to find that the simulations were quite accurate. 

 Participants in the headwize.com DIY forums provided valuable comments and suggestions, which helped the circuit and the board layout evolve into its current form. Gratitude is extended to all who took the time to write comments and feedback. 

 The first β22 and σ22 printed circuit board prototypes were fabricated in October of 2006, on which I was able to build a working system. The production board, with only very minor modifications from the prototype, went to fab late November 2006. General availability of boards began in December. 

 Look for more exciting DIY projects from AMB in the future!


----------



## MorbidToaster

I would be commissioning a B22 from YBM. I don't have the skill, nor patience to build one myself right now (though I'd like to down the line).
   
  It would come out to roughly the same price as some of Ray's offerings, and they seem well regarded (albeit mysterious). I'm not sure _any _company could keep up with the kind of information you can get on the B22 simply because it_ is_ a DIY amp. 
   
  They're different designs but both have the same intended effect: Headphone amplification. They're also both Solid State so I'd say a comparison is fair. I love Ray's design, and most of the B22s I've seen are pretty attractive, too. 
   
  I'm just trying to find the best SS amp I can get for the money. If the Apache, DS, and B22 are close enough sound wise I'd just get the Apache and use it as my Preamp as well. Best bang for the buck is really what I'm shooting for.


----------



## Forgot Password

Hi i am new at all of this and my head is full of questions so please help me
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  , so i just thought of buying the LCD-2 and as you know it's expensive (at least for me) so i really can't afford that  much for amp/ADC I'm looking for solutions so will this headphone work without ADC\amp and beat the cheaper headphone like Denon D7000 ? or what about if i use Fiio e9/e7 combo for both of these headphone who will be better?,(even though i read that the lcd are not hard to drive and it's the top of the line).And i will buy the LCD2 next month i heard maybe by that time  fiio E15 and E17 will come out will this be good enough for the lcd2 ? i really don't want to waste my money on lcd2 and find out it sound like cheap phones .BTW (excuse my poor english it is not my first language
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)


----------



## SoundFreaq

My Beta-22 is about here. I purchased from a previous owner. Pretty set on my next phone being the LCD-X. Is that known for having a spectacular synergy?


----------



## tme110

I'm looking forward to hearing more impressions from the Super-7


----------



## johnwmclean

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> I'm just trying to find the best SS amp I can get for the money. If the Apache, DS, and B22 are close enough sound wise I'd just get the Apache and use it as my Preamp as well. Best bang for the buck is really what I'm shooting for.


 
   
  To achieve better specifications than what the β22 has benchmarked for a solid state headphone amp you’d need to pull a rabbit out of the hat. I doubt anything from the commercial world comes even close value and performance wise. People selling their DIY projects on the FS threads here are lucky if they get back what they laid out for component parts alone.


----------



## YoengJyh

Quote: 





forgot password said:


> Hi i am new at all of this and my head is full of questions so please help me
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


  Forgot Password: Go for NFB-10SE. 500USD. Good~ Is a combination of DAC+PreAmp+PowerAmp.


----------



## krod3003

Anyone listen to thee using the Zana Deux? And sorry if my "have you even listen to the LCD-2 with "x" amp" questions are annoying, just want to make sure the next 2k amp I buy is the right one


----------



## KimbaWLion

Quote: 





krod3003 said:


> Anyone listen to thee using the Zana Deux? And sorry if my "have you even listen to the LCD-2 with "x" amp" questions are annoying, just want to make sure the next 2k amp I buy is the right one


 


  I would think it would be hard to pick a ANY bad amp at 2K... Some MIGHT be a tad better one way or the other but picking the wrong one? Not sure about that...
  I already know some may disagree with that but I have not met a maker that did not put all they had into a 2K head amp no matter who makes it! 
  JUST what I think IMHO! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  I am sure you'll pick the right one!


----------



## DarknightDK

I'll also recommend the Audio Gd NFB10SE. It's quite a fantastic DAC/amp combo for the money and sounds high-end imo. The 10SE has more than enough power to drive the Audezes well and really brings out the details in the music. It's also very neutral sounding so you will need good sources and cables.


----------



## olor1n

I suspect the 10SE's entry level price may actually be a deterrent for some. It's great for the budget conscious but I wonder how many overlook it without thought simply because it is cheap. So much for so little... it couldn't possibly be any good right?


----------



## Blurpapa

Quote: 





hk_sends said:


> I think he means these guys:
> 
> http://ybmaudio.com/products.html
> 
> ...


 

 I know Ying and he does excellent work. Although a beta22 plus a sigma22 with options can cost more than a Cavalli LF, you know you are getting good stuff under the hood.


----------



## jc9394

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> I would be commissioning a B22 from YBM. I don't have the skill, nor patience to build one myself right now (though I'd like to down the line).
> 
> It would come out to roughly the same price as some of Ray's offerings, and they seem well regarded (albeit mysterious). I'm not sure _any _company could keep up with the kind of information you can get on the B22 simply because it_ is_ a DIY amp.
> 
> ...


 
   
  I was on the same boat late last year and decided to commissioned Corey of SWA to build me a balanced beta22.  I have auditioned a RSA Apache before and I think it is a great amp but to me, it has the slight warm RSA sound signature and what I'm really looking for is more natural and detail sound to pair with LCD-2.


----------



## rudi0504

I have own LCD 2 Rev 1 and Rev 2 
   
  My recomandation for LCD 2 Rev 1 and Rev 2 is  Pre Amp P 10.2 from T + A Germany
   
  This T + A Pre Amp P 10.2 : is the best amp for my LCD 2 i ever heard
   
  Sound very full body and sweet Mid and extended High.
   
  I copy link from  T + A :
   
T+A HOME


----------



## tme110

Yea, I think that's happening too.  I think it would be a deal at twice the price. Though I paid around $900 to get mine so I have to feel that way (but I thought it was the best deal out there at that price...then the SE version came out).
  
  Quote: 





olor1n said:


> I suspect the 10SE's entry level price may actually be a deterrent for some. It's great for the budget conscious but I wonder how many overlook it without thought simply because it is cheap. So much for so little... it couldn't possibly be any good right?


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





jc9394 said:


> I was on the same boat late last year and decided to commissioned Corey of SWA to build me a balanced beta22.  I have auditioned a RSA Apache before and I think it is a great amp but to me, it has the slight warm RSA sound signature and what I'm really looking for is more natural and detail sound to pair with LCD-2.


 

 I have listened to a couple B22s as well and have found most of them to be warm rather than neutral.
  Detail retrieval was equally good on both the B22 and Apache
  As you can see this is very subjective and depending on the listener, may prefer one over the other. Matching it with the right source is extremely important as well as I found the Apache to sound best with my Havana.


----------



## MorbidToaster

Nice to know. Finally hearing a comparisson is nice. 
   
  I still think the LF is where I'll end up at this point but if I could nab a black apache for 2k before Feb I'd be pretty tempted...
  
  Quote: 





brasewel said:


> I have listened to a couple B22s as well and have found most of them to be warm rather than neutral.
> Detail retrieval was equally good on both the B22 and Apache
> As you can see this is very subjective and depending on the listener, may prefer one over the other. Matching it with the right source is extremely important as well as I found the Apache to sound best with my Havana.


----------



## Radio_head

Apache's have been running between 1500-1750 recently on the FS forums.  I have tried it (among with every other RSA amp except for Darkstar) multiple times at Ray's house.  I prefer a well-built B22, and as to the neutrality question... B22 is more neutral - definitely a wire with gain type of amp.  Brasewel, were you using it with your Havana?  From the one I've tried everything sounds slightly warm on it...


----------



## MorbidToaster

There were 2 recently on the FS forums I know of one of which was Braswel's...but they were both white. I thought about it but a big white Apache in the middle of my black rack would just bug the hell out of me.
  Quote: 





radio_head said:


> Apache's have been running between 1500-1750 recently on the FS forums.  I have tried it (among with every other RSA amp except for Darkstar) multiple times at Ray's house.  I prefer a well-built B22, and as to the neutrality question... B22 is more neutral - definitely a wire with gain type of amp.  Brasewel, were you using it with your Havana?  From the one I've tried everything sounds slightly warm on it...


----------



## Stevtt

Don't see many black Apaches for sale


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





radio_head said:


> Apache's have been running between 1500-1750 recently on the FS forums.  I have tried it (among with every other RSA amp except for Darkstar) multiple times at Ray's house.  I prefer a well-built B22, and as to the neutrality question... B22 is more neutral - definitely a wire with gain type of amp.  Brasewel, were you using it with your Havana?  From the one I've tried everything sounds slightly warm on it...


 

 Yes I was using it with the Havana. The reason I preferred that match was because the tubes added some warmth to an otherwise very neutral amp IMO.
  Apache's sell between 1750 - 1900 used.


----------



## MorbidToaster

I wish there we more...Heck I'd own one already and not be complaining (I think) if there were.
  
  Quote: 





stevtt said:


> Don't see many black Apaches for sale


----------



## Stevtt

I could spray paint this one black and sell it to you at an encredibly high markup.


----------



## MorbidToaster

I think I'll be okay with an LF. I'll make it through. :3
  
  Quote: 





stevtt said:


> I could spray paint this one black and sell it to you at an encredibly high markup.


----------



## Stevtt

Ok. Besides if I spray painted this thing Brasewell would probably hunt me down


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





stevtt said:


> Ok. Besides if I spray painted this thing Brasewell would probably hunt me down


 

 I know where you stay 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. I've only seen 1 black Apache sell and that was Warp08's Apache.


----------



## MorbidToaster

I could've been you.  I almost bought Braswel's Apache but I just couldn't do it. We'll see how it all works out though. Glad you're enjoying it. 
  
  Quote: 





stevtt said:


> Ok. Besides if I spray painted this thing Brasewell would probably hunt me down


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





brasewel said:


> I know where you stay
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I considered your Apache for a while but then I finally went with the Liquid Fire.  Hey, was there an R.I.T discount? I forgot to inquire.


----------



## tme110

We all know times are tough so we'll help you make it through!  
  
  Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> I think I'll be okay with an LF. I'll make it through. :3


----------



## leesure

Brasewell's Apace was a great match for the LCD-2's.  I heard it at a meet in May next to an RWA pre-release balanced Isabellina Audez'e Edition. While the Apace did out perform the RWA at the time, I'd argue it wasn't a fair test as the production version with a Mullard tube (not the ****ty JJ tube) is a contender.  
  I've also heard a great balanced ß22 and it was stellar.
   
  That said, I still prefer my RWA and I don't think it gets as much attention as it deserves.  It's a killer DAC (both NOS and high-res on board) and awesome high-current balanced amp. 
   
  Do yourself a favor and listen to one.


----------



## brasewel

Quote:


warriorant said:


> I considered your Apache for a while but then I finally went with the Liquid Fire.  Hey, was there an R.I.T discount? I forgot to inquire.


 

 Man you should have asked. You never know what I would have said 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
   
  Quote: 





> Originally Posted by* Leesure* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Brasewell's Apace was a great match for the LCD-2's. I heard it at a meet in May next to an RWA pre-release balanced Isabellina Audez'e Edition. While the Apace did out perform the RWA at the time, I'd argue it wasn't a fair test as the production version with a Mullard tube (not the ****ty JJ tube) is a contender.
> I've also heard a great balanced ß22 and it was stellar.
> ...


 
   
   
  Lee I did come to your place a week later and we compared the production version of the RWA. I remember it was really close with the RWA have a slightly more laid back and organic sound while my Apache was a little forward being a little more revealing(if I remember correctly).


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





brasewel said:


> Man you should have asked. You never know what I would have said


 

 Codeword "Brick City"


----------



## leesure

Quote: 





brasewel said:


> Quote:
> 
> Man you should have asked. You never know what I would have said
> 
> ...


 


   
  Ahhh, but tht was still with the Chinese JJ tube.  The Mullard was a nice mprovement.


----------



## winkyeye

I know its hard to compare headphone amps to vintage receivers but which would be a better fit with the LCD-2s between the Hifiman EF5 and the Kenwood KR-4070?


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





winkyeye said:


> I know its hard to compare headphone amps to vintage receivers but which would be a better fit with the LCD-2s between the Hifiman EF5 and the Kenwood KR-4070?


 


  I don't know much about any of those products, but it would be hard to believe that old Kenwood would be good enough for the LCDs !


----------



## WNBC

Search and post to this thread http://www.head-fi.org/t/537704/calling-all-vintage-integrated-receiver-owners for vintage gear that works well with the orthos.  
   
  Quote: 





winkyeye said:


> I know its hard to compare headphone amps to vintage receivers but which would be a better fit with the LCD-2s between the Hifiman EF5 and the Kenwood KR-4070?


----------



## dagothur

I just got back from a good sized headphone meet.  I had a chance to audition a Yulong D100 and a Lyr/Bifrost combo, and of course my Nuforce Icon HDP.  I tried all three set-ups with the LCD-2 as well as a Q701 (which was my second favorite at the meet, surprisingly), Paradox mod Fostex T50rp, Ultrasone Pro900, and Denon D2000.  Out of all the headphones, the LCD-2 dominated absolutely over the rest with the Lyr/Bifrost combo.  There was nothing that set-up couldn't do, and do phenomenally.  The only thing better than it was female vocals with the Q701 and the same combo, which was mind-blowing.  In fact, I'm pretty sure the Lyr with the Bifrost is the best thing I have ever heard, hands down.  Although once I tested it using the Nuforce as the amp and the Bifrost as the DAC, the differences between my Nuforce and the combo became minimal.  The soundstage was wider, and in general the sound was more articulate, but the highs were a bit rolled off by comparison.  I won't be getting the Bifrost as of my meet impressions, since at this point it's a minimal upgrade for a $500 unit.
*Yulong D100 vs. Nuforce*: The Yulong isn't leaps and bounds better than the Nuforce, but I felt it was a more energetic combo.  I mostly tried this with what music the Chinese gentleman - the owner of the AKGs and the Yulong - had on his laptop, which was generally electro pop, but listening to music with which I was actually familiar produced the same result.  In general, the Nuforce is a bit more detailed and textured, while the Yulong is more energetic and has a wider soundstage. I would recommend it if you prefer EDM or something that calls for a more energetic presentation.
*Schiit Lyr/Bifrost Combo vs. Nuforce: *This one was a bit tougher.  Both DACs are energetic and detailed with an emphasis on dynamics and upper midrange/high articulation.  However, the Lyr/Bifrost was more dynamic with a wider soundstage.  Using the track "Slam" by Pendulum, the trumpets at the beginning of the track were a bit more detailed with the Lyr/Bifrost.  The mids and lows were more fleshed out, and I felt as if some details might have been smoothed over.  I didn't notice this quite as much, but mmayer felt the highs were a bit rolled off with the Lyr/Bifrost.  Overall, the Lyr/Bifrost pushed ahead, but not by a wide margin.  The Nuforce seems to be a bit of a more laid back DAC/amp with more articulation in the lower ranges and more extension in the highs.  The soundstage was a bit more narrow and might have had a greater depth, but the narrow aspect was more prominent when switching between.
*Bifrost to Nuforce amp vs. Nuforce:* Most of the differences I noticed with the full Schiit combo were nowhere near as noticeable as with this combo, but there was more energy and the highs weren't rolled off.  That increase in energy and dynamics was the only difference that remained as noticeable as with the full combo, so I think some of that might have come with the Lyr itself.  Strangely enough when I tried the Nuforce to Lyr, there was hardly a difference at all. 
*On a side note*: if there is any headphone that is truly neutral with a perfectly clear, honest presentation, it is the Paradox.  I've never heard that kind of clarity before, and it was incredibly stark.  I also had a surprising revelation with the Q701s: they're glorious for extreme metal.  Although they're bass lite, they have a fantastic texture and with the Lyr/Bifrost actually produce a good amount of bass impact.  The Nuforce paired a lot better with them than I anticipated; I initially used them with the HDP as a joke because of how sinfully bright I thought it would be.  Although with neither set up did the Q701s sound very good with electronic music, it handled most genres very well.


----------



## mmayer167

Thanks for the impressions dag, I would like to clarify the treble rolloff you quoted me on, what i was getting at was that the treble energy was just more on the nuforce hdp than the bifrost. Overall dac to dac out of the nuforce amp I noticed a wider soundstage with the bifrost and just an overall cleanlyness about the sound over the hdp dac. Also worth mentioning is the feel of extension both top and bottom with the bifrost. The amount was nothing to really shake a big stick at but there were differences and i would rather listen to the bifrost but thats me, it is a bit flatter which is my ideal, hence why i have paradox headphones and enjoy them for how they let me enjoy music.
   
  sorry if that was hard to read, it's late. 
   
  M 
   
  Edit: Oh yea, the Bifrost-Lyr combo with the Lcd-2 rev 2 is the best thing I have ever heard. Followed closely by my Paradox, which are clearer but lack that "fun" factor.


----------



## MorbidToaster

I'm seriously considering Schiit for my office rig once I get my full rig together and will move the SA8004 and LF to the listening room.


----------



## Argo Duck

Great impressions thanks dagothur


----------



## VALIENTE

Quote:


dagothur said:


> I tried all three set-ups with the LCD-2 as well as a Q701 (which was my second favorite at the meet, surprisingly),
> 
> Out of all the headphones, the LCD-2 dominated absolutely over the rest with the Lyr/Bifrost combo.  There was nothing that set-up couldn't do, and do phenomenally.  The only thing better than it was female vocals with the Q701 and the same combo, which was mind-blowing.  In fact, I'm pretty sure the Lyr with the Bifrost is the best thing I have ever heard, hands down.
> 
> I also had a surprising revelation with the Q701s: they're glorious for extreme metal.  Although they're bass lite, they have a fantastic texture and with the Lyr/Bifrost actually produce a good amount of bass impact.


 

 This is a nice information. I must keep my K701, buy Lyr+Bitfrost, and also buy LCD-2.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Thank you dagothur.


----------



## Creizai

This is some great information thank you, however what did the Q701 do better than the LCD with the Lyr/Bifrost combo? I'm seriously thinking about picking up a Q701 as my second pair of phones for the "other music".  
 I really perfer electronica, dubstep, and ambient music so I'm going to use the LCD-2 for the genres 
  Quote: 





dagothur said:


> I just got back from a good sized headphone meet.  I had a chance to audition a Yulong D100 and a Lyr/Bifrost combo, and of course my Nuforce Icon HDP.  I tried all three set-ups with the LCD-2 as well as a Q701 (which was my second favorite at the meet, surprisingly), Paradox mod Fostex T50rp, Ultrasone Pro900, and Denon D2000.  Out of all the headphones, the LCD-2 dominated absolutely over the rest with the Lyr/Bifrost combo.  There was nothing that set-up couldn't do, and do phenomenally.  The only thing better than it was female vocals with the Q701 and the same combo, which was mind-blowing.  In fact, I'm pretty sure the Lyr with the Bifrost is the best thing I have ever heard, hands down.  Although once I tested it using the Nuforce as the amp and the Bifrost as the DAC, the differences between my Nuforce and the combo became minimal.  The soundstage was wider, and in general the sound was more articulate, but the highs were a bit rolled off by comparison.  I won't be getting the Bifrost as of my meet impressions, since at this point it's a minimal upgrade for a $500 unit.
> *Yulong D100 vs. Nuforce*: The Yulong isn't leaps and bounds better than the Nuforce, but I felt it was a more energetic combo.  I mostly tried this with what music the Chinese gentleman - the owner of the AKGs and the Yulong - had on his laptop, which was generally electro pop, but listening to music with which I was actually familiar produced the same result.  In general, the Nuforce is a bit more detailed and textured, while the Yulong is more energetic and has a wider soundstage. I would recommend it if you prefer EDM or something that calls for a more energetic presentation.
> *Schiit Lyr/Bifrost Combo vs. Nuforce: *This one was a bit tougher.  Both DACs are energetic and detailed with an emphasis on dynamics and upper midrange/high articulation.  However, the Lyr/Bifrost was more dynamic with a wider soundstage.  Using the track "Slam" by Pendulum, the trumpets at the beginning of the track were a bit more detailed with the Lyr/Bifrost.  The mids and lows were more fleshed out, and I felt as if some details might have been smoothed over.  I didn't notice this quite as much, but mmayer felt the highs were a bit rolled off with the Lyr/Bifrost.  Overall, the Lyr/Bifrost pushed ahead, but not by a wide margin.  The Nuforce seems to be a bit of a more laid back DAC/amp with more articulation in the lower ranges and more extension in the highs.  The soundstage was a bit more narrow and might have had a greater depth, but the narrow aspect was more prominent when switching between.
> *Bifrost to Nuforce amp vs. Nuforce:* Most of the differences I noticed with the full Schiit combo were nowhere near as noticeable as with this combo, but there was more energy and the highs weren't rolled off.  That increase in energy and dynamics was the only difference that remained as noticeable as with the full combo, so I think some of that might have come with the Lyr itself.  Strangely enough when I tried the Nuforce to Lyr, there was hardly a difference at all.
> *On a side note*: if there is any headphone that is truly neutral with a perfectly clear, honest presentation, it is the Paradox.  I've never heard that kind of clarity before, and it was incredibly stark.  I also had a surprising revelation with the Q701s: they're glorious for extreme metal.  Although they're bass lite, they have a fantastic texture and with the Lyr/Bifrost actually produce a good amount of bass impact.  The Nuforce paired a lot better with them than I anticipated; I initially used them with the HDP as a joke because of how sinfully bright I thought it would be.  Although with neither set up did the Q701s sound very good with electronic music, it handled most genres very well.


----------



## grokit

FWIW I liked the K701 better out of the Lyr than the LCD-2 as well. Just from judging both headphones out of a variety of amps the K701 sounded just right out of the Lyr while the LCD-2 did not.


----------



## mmayer167

The Q701 was seriously really good with the lyr-bifrost! So much so that i am pondering getting a pair of 701's just for the female vocals, and the suprisingly fun way that combo portrayed electronic stuff (my opinion, and not dagothur's if you read above. Just goes to show you how different everyones ears are... To take this one step further, another friend who attended the meet thought the Paradox sounded muffled 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).  The impact from the Q701 was enough and extension was good down low! I was not expecting it at all, and was pleasantly surprised. They didnt seem dry or aneamic either, and were missing that harsh top end I remembered from my 702 way back when i had one. Will it do all genre's excellent? No is still my answer, but it could cover all the bases if needed, if it was fed from the bifrost-lyr.
   
  Just my 2 cents from our gathering with this gear last night.
   
  M


----------



## dagothur

I think it depends on the kind of electronic music, but I don't think it would do well for dubstep.  Ambient music would probably be very good.


----------



## buson160man

Reply to amp recommendations.Specifically the burson ha-160.I have two amps at present the rsa raptor and the burson ha-160.I at presently prefer the burson with my lcd-2 rev2 phones but i must add that i have replaced the stock fuse in the burson with a hi-fi tuning silver star fuse and am now using a kubala sosna emotion power cord on the burson.I was using the raptor with the kubala sosna emotion and with a hif-tuning gold fuse.But since I went to the emotion power cord on the burson the sound improved exponentially on the burson.In one of the comments someone had mentioned that the raptor was a good value at less than 1000 dollars but not so anymore well i do not  at all agree with that you should hear the amp now i beleive you would be astonished at the performance of the amp with the lcd-2 rev 2 phone.But i have to be honest most people would not use a $750.00 power cord on a $700 amp.I had a couple of emotion cords in my other system with my speakers.I just thought i would try it and was astounded by the improvement that the emotion cord wrested from the burson in conjunction with the silver star fuse upgrade.


----------



## drez

.


----------



## googleli

Where did you get the Emotion for $750?

  
  Quote: 





buson160man said:


> Reply to amp recommendations.Specifically the burson ha-160.I have two amps at present the rsa raptor and the burson ha-160.I at presently prefer the burson with my lcd-2 rev2 phones but i must add that i have replaced the stock fuse in the burson with a hi-fi tuning silver star fuse and am now using a kubala sosna emotion power cord on the burson.I was using the raptor with the kubala sosna emotion and with a hif-tuning gold fuse.But since I went to the emotion power cord on the burson the sound improved exponentially on the burson.In one of the comments someone had mentioned that the raptor was a good value at less than 1000 dollars but not so anymore well i do not  at all agree with that you should hear the amp now i beleive you would be astonished at the performance of the amp with the lcd-2 rev 2 phone.But i have to be honest most people would not use a $750.00 power cord on a $700 amp.I had a couple of emotion cords in my other system with my speakers.I just thought i would try it and was astounded by the improvement that the emotion cord wrested from the burson in conjunction with the silver star fuse upgrade.


----------



## Kremer930

Wow.  I am surprised to hear of such a significant difference from a power cord.  Do you also have a power conditioner?  I dont use either and would be interested to gain some understanding of how much difference these kind of things make, including audiophile fuses.
   
  Cheers


----------



## Raser

Have someone of the fellow headfiers wrote a review of the Wooaudio 6 and Lcd-2? Or do someone have any opinions about that kind of combo?


----------



## tme110

You can search this thread for wa-6.  (the result is 174 posts)
  
  Quote: 





raser said:


> Have someone of the fellow headfiers wrote a review of the Wooaudio 6 and Lcd-2? Or do someone have any opinions about that kind of combo?


----------



## voodoohao

Hi has anyone tried the Cayin HA-1A's compatibility with the LCD2s? I've searched through this thread and there seems to be a dearth of opinions regarding this particular combo (other than SP Wild). Currently I'm using a Dacport LX for my DAC, thanks in advance for any replies!


----------



## catchedge

If price isn't a large issue, the Lyr and the Bifrost with the LCD-2 is the best combination I've ever heard.  Otherwise I've also heard it with the NuForce HDP and I really enjoyed it as well.


----------



## Asr

Quote: 





voodoohao said:


> Hi has anyone tried the Cayin HA-1A's compatibility with the LCD2s? I've searched through this thread and there seems to be a dearth of opinions regarding this particular combo (other than SP Wild). Currently I'm using a Dacport LX for my DAC, thanks in advance for any replies!


 

 I owned a Cayin HA-1A back in 2007, way before the LCD-2 came out, but that would definitely be an interesting pairing. I might even guess that it could be better than most other <$1K amp pairings, including the Schiit amps, as the HA-1A has loads of power output to spare (it can drive the legendary hard-to-drive AKG K1000 and K340 - I remember testing both headphones back then, ah those were the days).
   
  No offense to Schiit but I just haven't found their amps so far to be that great (I've heard the Asgard and Lyr, both with the LCD-2). I'm genuinely hoping to be impressed by their upcoming higher-end amps though.


----------



## mmayer167

^ Ditto what catchedge said. My Lyr/Bifrost is what we all heard the lcd-2 on at our mini meet and it was wonderful. Granted I have the lorenz tubes rolled in it which may be partly why it sounds so good but I feel it would still sound dam good with the stock tubes. The HDP also did a fine job with the lcd-2. The lcd seems to sound good out of alot of things and isnt too picky  
   
  -M


----------



## zzffnn

I have 3 amps that work quite well for Lcd-2s (rev. 1). Beta22, First Watt F2 clone and Objective 2 (O2) amp.
   
  I like Beta22 best with Lcd-2s. Great dynamics, transparent, stunning realism and big soundstage.
   
  The F2 clone sounds a little warmer than Beta22. Though I like this combo almost as well as the first.
   
  The Objective 2 amp sounds really good, especially considering it is transportable, battery powered and so cheap (~$160). Having the O2 amp in hand, I do not miss my previous AMB M3 or Cavalli CTH that much. The O2 sounds like a M3 with AD843 IIRC, but it can fit into my pocket while M3 can not.
   
  For those who want a full-sized dac/amp combo and on a budget, I recommend getting a used Presonus Central Station (~$350). It has been compared favorably to Benchmark dac1 and is known to drive HD650 very well. I have tried the Presonus Central Station with my Lcd-2s and like the combo. It is a very good deal if you get used, considering it has optical and coaxial inputs, 2 independent headphone amps and 3 state-of-the-art passive pre-amp (work very nice with speaker amps, like my F2 clone).


----------



## jc9394

X2 on beta22, so far I can't find a better amp for LCD-2 than beta22.  I have not heard the LF yet, hopefully I'm able to afford one later this year.


----------



## palchiu

How about this amp? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
http://www.head-fi.org/t/583646/linnenberg-spa1-a-new-contender-in-the-sub-1k-balanced-discrete-headamp-market


----------



## rmlink

Has anyone tried the LCD-2's with a SOPHA II amp?


----------



## Girls Generation

Wondering if anyone of you guys have tried the Objective2, I hear it's as good as some desktop amps.


----------



## DarknightDK

girls generation said:


> Wondering if anyone of you guys have tried the Objective2, I hear it's as good as some desktop amps.




The O2 seems to be an excellent portable amp and matches well with the Audezes. I have placed my order for the O2 and will be testing it with my LCD-3. Will post my impressions once I have listened to them.


----------



## zzffnn

^ I talked about objective 2 amp in the previous page of this thread. It is as good or better than lots of desktop full size amps. M3 or CTH are not much better when paired with my Lcd2s. I do like beta22 a little better than o2.


----------



## rmlink

What gain setting do you use for the O2?  Where is the volume position usually?  I realize everyone listens to music at different volumes, I'm just trying to get a feel for what gain I should build my O2 with.  Thanks!


----------



## khaos974

You should build your O2 with enough gain so that you can get a full 3 Vrms with the source you plan to use.
  Anyway, you have two gain settings with the O2, you can use the other setting as a lower gain option if you plan to use IEMs, or a higher gain option if you plan on using weaker sources.
  You could also get more help on diyaudio.com.


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





zzffnn said:


> ^ I talked about objective 2 amp in the previous page of this thread. It is as good or better than lots of desktop full size amps. M3 or CTH are not much better when paired with my Lcd2s. I do like beta22 a little better than o2.


 

 Completely agree. It competed very well with my Apache


----------



## zzffnn

@ *rmlink, *
   
*To answer your questions:*
   
  "What gain setting do you use for the O2? "
   
  >>>>>> Not sure what gain it is. I bought my O2 from JDS labs as a finished product.
   
  "Where is the volume position usually?"
   
  >>>>>> I usually listen at 78db-83db. With iPhone 3GS HO set to 90% as source, volume pot of O2 (always on low gain) with Lcd2s is around 10 o'clock, around 11:30 o'clock with 600 ohm DT880s, 8-8:30 o'clock with Westone ES3Xs. 3GS HO's output is higher than Sansa Clip and lower than almost all desktop dac. An of course, some recordings are recorded with low volume (classical, instrumental music) and some with high volume.  
   
  >>>>>> For my headphone listening, I usually select a gain of 2X (I rarely use any thing higher, although gain up to 6X is manageable though it will limit volume pot range). I guess the default low gain setting of JDS O2 is around 2X, while the high gain is around 6X. But I am guessing with my ears, so please take that with a grain of salt.


----------



## MorbidToaster

Okay. Who is building finished O2s? I have to try this bad boy out. I need a new portable amp anyway...
   
  Has anyone done a comparisson with the HP-P1's amp? I'm considering that in the future as well.


----------



## Ultrainferno

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> Okay. Who is building finished O2s? I have to try this bad boy out. I need a new portable amp anyway...
> 
> Has anyone done a comparisson with the HP-P1's amp? I'm considering that in the future as well.


 


  JDSlabs is selling them finished, and I think Headfonia compared the two.


----------



## Loevhagen

Lake People G100 (along with the V200 from Violectric) is also a good match to the LCD-2s.


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





brasewel said:


> Completely agree. It competed very well with my Apache


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


>


 

 Yup. I was at a mini meet recently and the host's wife actually thought it sounded better than his Apache with her limited listening experience


----------



## Francoy

Quote: 





brasewel said:


> Yup. I was at a mini meet recently and the host's wife actually thought it sounded better than his Apache with her limited listening experience


 
   
  You mean an O2 feeding LCD-2s compared with the LCD-2s fed from an Apache???
  (quite a shocker if I got that correctly)


----------



## Girls Generation

Apparently it competes with a B22 which I believe is quite insane for a small portable amp that costs $140 .....


----------



## Loevhagen

Remember, don't panic.
   
the host's wife actually *thought* it sounded better than his Apache with her *limited listening experience + "*





"


----------



## jc9394

Quote: 





girls generation said:


> Apparently it competes with a B22 which I believe is quite insane for a small portable amp that costs $140 .....


 


  I will compare it to my beta22 once I get around to order one.


----------



## Kremer930

Since people are talking portables that represent good value, how about the ibasso PB2 balanced portable?  It has good power and is cheap and can roll opamps to tune to your preferred sound and can even drive the HE6 to a reasonable level.  I am impressed with how much fuller the bass is and how good the dynamics are.


----------



## obazavil

Quote: 





jc9394 said:


> I will compare it to my beta22 once I get around to order one.


 


  Please post the review


----------



## khaos974

Quote: 





loevhagen said:


> Remember, don't panic.
> 
> the host's wife actually *thought* it sounded better than his Apache with her *limited listening experience + "*
> 
> ...


 

 On the other hand, that could also mean she has no idea of the price of the Apache and compared them more fairly


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





khaos974 said:


> On the other hand, that could also mean she has no idea of the price of the Apache and compared them more fairly


 

 When I meant limited, it was listening to headphones and music critiquing in general. But you might be right since she didn't have any price bias.


----------



## voodoohao

Hi guys I've heard a lot about the Meier concerto and stagedac combo with the lcd2s and there's a lot of positive reviews and such. I have found a local seller for this combo for 700 usd, should I go for it? Knowing that the concerto has been discontinued. I currently own a dacmagic and x can v8p amp, but would be looking to sell them if the performance of the Meier combo is good
   
  Edit* the Meier combo is used. Not new forgot to mention that haha


----------



## Argo Duck

@voodoohao - It may depend what you listen to. I have a positive regard for Jan Meier's work; some others don't.
   
  There's a "rule of thumb" the LCD2 needs 2W (peak? rms?) to deliver its best. I don't know what this is based on exactly; call it the wisdom (or the delusion) of crowds if you like. Concerto can deliver 2W peak into rev 1, about 1.8W into rev 2, given a 4V input. However, the StageDAC delivers 2.2V rms or a little over 3V peak. With 8dB gain (2.5 x), we're talking 1W peaks or slightly more, dependent on rev.
   
  To be sensible these figures, while short of the 2W rule, would yield ear-shattering SPL levels. On most of the material I listen to the Concerto is more than enough. Perhaps if you listen to a lot of orchestral (high dynamic range) material, it may not be - IDK, I listen to that kind of material on my speaker rig! I have gained the impression some feel power is needed - think Schiit Lyr territory - to get satisfactory "kick" and "slam" in the bass/sub-bass. I confess the reasoning escapes me, and I can't hear this difference [see my sig!], but it may be true.
   
  It seems to me Jan Meier values neutrality and clean sound. The Concerto (and Stagedac) certainly achieve this. That means it gets really close to getting out of the way of the music, adding little or no excitement or euphony. Compared to the Schitt Lyr with suitable tubes, for example, the Concerto can sound a little dry in the lower mids.
   
  It 'compensates' for this - if compensation is needed - with deep blackground and terrific attack throughout. Added to this it is highly detailed and has extended, nice highs (slightly sweet, as Skylab remarked).
   
  Personally, I wouldn't hesitate. The combo functions as a reference point for me - whatever else I get, I hope/plan to hold on to this (or possibly the Stagedac/Classic) combo for a while. But that's just me.
   
  I am sure others will chime in with opposing views, which will help you get a balanced (
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) picture.


----------



## Red Jacket Mike

I owned the Concerto and Stage DAC for nearly a year, and used them with my LCD-2s (rev 1s and 2s).  The combination worked very well, and there was plenty of power.  I eventually sold both units, and upgraded to the W4S DAC-2, and a Violectric V200.  The Concerto was a very clean, neutral sounding amp.  Dead quiet background, and very well built.  I would recommend it highly.  The same comments would apply to the Stage DAC; I didn't really use the cross feed features, though.
   
  I did like the dual outputs on the StageDAC, since I keep two different amps connected (the other being a Woo WA2).  The W4S also has that capability.
   
  I upgraded because I was looking for a solid state amp that was a shade on the warm side of neutral, and something with even more available power; thus the V200.  This amp is considerably more expensive, as well.
   
  For 700 USD, I can't think of an amp/DAC combo with more bang for the buck then the Meier units, though.  Very nice pieces of gear.


----------



## voodoohao

Thanks AiDee and Mike for the replies! I listen to a mix of alternative and indie music, dipping into mainstream youtube videos occasionally so I guess I can't go wrong with the Meier units. Will probably will be getting them next week or so.
   
   
  @Aidee: What does blackground mean? haha I'm not very good at jargon


----------



## Argo Duck

Just exactly what Red Jacket Mike said: "Dead quiet background". You might think 'so what?', but it adds noticeably to the perception of dynamics. Stands out most when there is a beat or two of silence followed by a loud burst, but makes a difference generally IMO. Possibly  contributes to the perception of fast attack as well.
   
  The Violectrics RJM mentions are noted for this too.
  
  Quote: 





> @Aidee: What does blackground mean? haha I'm not very good at jargon


----------



## Girls Generation

I used to think lowly of black background... until I actually heard it.


----------



## GeorgeNapalm

Hi guys,
   
  I stumbled upon a headphone amp review in one of the Russian audio magazines. The choice of amps is strange for us, but that's probably what you can get in Moscow. There was Meier Corda Concerto among the amps. And in contrast with the consensus here, its sound with LCD-2 was described as pretty bad:
   
_"Heavy" LCD-2 demonstrated extremely lazy, flat and slow sound with non-existent bass structure. There was no proper _
_dynamics and micro-dynamics to speak of._

 With that, their experts liked how HD-800 sounded with Concerto.
   
  You can read the full review here: http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.salonav.com%2Farch%2F2011%2F03%2F034-meier.htm


----------



## FSonicSmith

Quote: 





> @voodoohao - It may depend what you listen to. I have a positive regard for Jan Meier's work; some others don't.
> 
> There's a "rule of thumb" the LCD2 needs 2W (peak? rms?) to deliver its best. I don't know what this is based on exactly; call it the wisdom (or the delusion) of crowds if you like. Concerto can deliver 2W peak into rev 1, about 1.8W into rev 2, given a 4V input. However, the StageDAC delivers 2.2V rms or a little over 3V peak. With 8dB gain (2.5 x), we're talking 1W peaks or slightly more, dependent on rev.
> 
> To be sensible these figures, while short of the 2W rule, would yield ear-shattering SPL levels. On most of the material I listen to the Concerto is more than enough. Perhaps if you listen to a lot of orchestral (high dynamic range) material, it may not be - IDK, I listen to that kind of material on my speaker rig! I have gained the impression some feel power is needed - think Schiit Lyr territory - to get satisfactory "kick" and "slam" in the bass/sub-bass. I confess the reasoning escapes me, and I can't hear this difference [see my sig!], but it may be true.


 
   
  The concept I quote above (and I don't mean to pick on the author) is something I see repeated again and again here and elsewhere-that power requirements are a matter of reaching a certain decible level. As much as I respect a lot of the technical info on the Anedio website, when it comes to headphone usage, the guy behind Anedio does the same thing; talks in terms of reaching a given loudness level;
   
  Quote: 





> How much power is needed to drive a headphone?
> The sensitivities of the headphones vary widely, as much as 30 dB SPL, for a given power, and it is impossible to cite a single number. For a moderately sensitive headphone, such as the Sennheiser HD600 (97 dB SPL/mW, 300 ohms), it would require about 20 mW (2.4 Vrms into 300 ohms) to reach 110 dB SPL. For the Audeze LCD-2, it would be 79 mW (2.2 Vrms into 60 ohms), and for the HifiMan HE-5LE, about 178 mW (2.6 Vrms into 38 ohms). The D2's default output level (4 Vrms) is more than sufficient to drive all these headphones to 110 dB SPL with extremely low distortion. However, extended listening at such a high level is strongly discouraged, as sound-induced hearing loss is irreversible


 
   
   

 Just as medicine is both an art and a science, music reproduction is both. Cliche as it might be, it's true. It's no surprise that an engineer who focuses on DAC technology (largely objective and prone to measurement) comes at headphone amp design from the engineering angle only. I do not come from a headphone background, but from a general audiophile background-25 years worth. In my view, amplifiers sound different from one another in ways that can not be easily measured. I subscribe to the philosophy that measurements are not all that matters and that not all things that matter can be measured. How fast an amp sounds-dynamics, slam, release and decay, these things are not easily measured. Headphones are inherently limited in their ability to convey many things we like about music reproduction-soundstaging, imaging, and visceral slam chiefly. What most headphone enthusiasts are really looking for in a headphone amp-though they often fail to come right out and say it-is the missing excitement factor. Due to the lack of soundwaves reverberating in a room, headphones often sound dull and lifeless. A very well designed head amp, IMHO, goes further than most amps in conveying speed and dynamics. It's more than just a matter of voltage and current and spls. When a large number of people agree that certain amps are fun to listen to with headphones (amps like the Zana Deux, Cavalli LF, Cary CAD300 sei, Leben 300sx, Violectric V200) I suspect that the design and implementation is far more nuanced than just looking at voltage and current into various loads.


----------



## Argo Duck

@FSonicSmith - good post. Agreed. Btw, my mention of power was merely defensive! There's a history here of observation and rebuke, as so often is the case when discussing gear. My sig (Art of hearing wrongly, which I wear proudly btw) arose directly from one such exchange 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  @GeorgeNapalm - I don't think there is a consensus at all about Concerto with LCD2. On the contrary, it tends to polarize listeners into love it or hate it!
   
  To be fair to Jan Meier, he designs - I don't think it is a stretch to say this - for phones like the Beyerdynamic T1 and Sennheiser HD800. Both are phones about which he seems enthusiastic. Or, _willing to recommend_ is probably more accurate. Last time I discussed it with him - about 7 months ago - he hadn't heard the LCD2. Most certainly, therefore, he had not designed for it


----------



## GeorgeNapalm

I would say a black background is to a greater degree a property of your listening environment. My cans and amps sound dramatically different when I listen to them at work, with high ambient noise from computers, air conditioning, people talking and at home in a quiet room. And indeed, in a quiet  room you get a better perception of dynamic range. Closed headphones might reduce this difference, but not completely.
   
  Quote: 





argo duck said:


> Just exactly what Red Jacket Mike said: "Dead quiet background". You might think 'so what?', but it adds noticeably to the perception of dynamics. Stands out most when there is a beat or two of silence followed by a loud burst, but makes a difference generally IMO. Possibly  contributes to the perception of fast attack as well.


----------



## Red Jacket Mike

I would agree that the listening environment greatly contributes to the desired quiet background.  During winters up here in Keweenaw, I keep a large console humidifier running in the house almost constantly, but I do shut it off during listening sessions.
   
  And, even with good, quiet running equipment, the noise from my external HD that holds my iTunes library was the last remaining distraction while listening.  I can't afford a 1 TB SSD yet, so I spent $20 on a 15 foot FW800 cable, and relocated the drive a distance away from my listening chair.  Problem solved.


----------



## Argo Duck

This is a good point. I don't disagree, and when listening seriously I reduce ambient noise as much as possible.
   
  I think with 'blackground' all we're talking about is a how much part the amp and other parts of the chain play in achieving this: how much it becomes part of listening environment as well as reproduction. I don't think there's anything mysterious here, and in terms of your point then blackground is a function of both environmental and electronic noise. I guess the relative degrees vary across equipment and environment. How's that?
  
  Quote: 





georgenapalm said:


> I would say a black background is to a greater degree a property of your listening environment. My cans and amps sound dramatically different when I listen to them at work, with high ambient noise from computers, air conditioning, people talking and at home in a quiet room. And indeed, in a quiet  room you get a better perception of dynamic range. Closed headphones might reduce this difference, but not completely.


----------



## Red Jacket Mike

Quote: 





argo duck said:


> This is a good point. I don't disagree, and when listening seriously I reduce ambient noise as much as possible.
> 
> I think with 'blackground' all we're talking about is a how much part the amp and other parts of the chain play in achieving this: how much it becomes part of listening environment as well as reproduction. I don't think there's anything mysterious here, and in terms of your point then blackground is a function of both environmental and electronic noise. I guess the relative degrees vary across equipment and environment. How's that?


 

 Exactly right.  But having equipment (amp, particularly) that is dead silent then leads you to track down ambient room noise and other distractions.  Once your equipment gets you close to perfection as far as background silence goes, you'll then do whatever it takes to silence everything else nearby that becomes a distraction.


----------



## GeorgeNapalm

You're right, the are many factors which affect black backgroung. For example many people noticed that music sound best at night, and most attribute that to reduced ambient noise. But I heard the theory about high-frequency noise in the electric network coming from varius heavy equipment running during the day. This noise affect the work of power supply in audio equipment and degrade the sound. Obviosly, there are less such noises at night, therefore music sounds better


----------



## jax

Here's my personal take on black backgrounds as applied to audio:  Referring to a black background in evaluating audio components has nothing whatsoever to do with ambient noise, or rather it should not.  It has everything to do with the interface of the components in the chain, not just the amplifier.  A black background can be affected by the amp, the preamp, the transducers and or the front end (and the interface of any and all of those).  If you have ambient noise to deal with, that has nothing to do with how your components are performing (beyond isolation), and does not belong in any criticism of it beyond making the comment perhaps that isolation is lacking, in the case of headphones, and that a noisy environment will therefore affect performance overall.  It certainly will affect what you hear, but applying that to a criticism of the components themselves is misleading and inaccurate, in my book, since "black background" does imply to me a criticism of a very specific quality of the components themselves.  Lack of isolation is certainly something to mention in criticizing headphones, but it should not be referred to in the way the OP of this statement suggests - lack of isolation may effect all matters of what you hear through those headphones, according to the nature and level of the noise around you and the degree of lack of isolation, not just black background.  If you use that lack of isolation to criticize the blackness of the background in your audio chain, It's like going to a movie where you were annoyed by someone talking behind you and then criticizing the movie through that filter.  It may have indeed had an effect on how you enjoyed the movie, but does it really belong in a review of the movie? A black background refers to a complete lack of self-generated noise, as well as the sense that sounds are "appearing" and "disappearing" against a field of black-acoustic space.  The quality lends itself well to enhancement of a sense of speed, dynamics and resolution in isolating those qualities so well against a field of silence where they become more stark. In my own experience those latter qualities are almost always enhanced by having a greater sense of a black background. On the other hand, you can have a black background and not necessarily have any enhancement to the sense of soundstage dimension, but the combination of both are certainly an amazing thing to hear.  That's my understanding of that descriptor anyway...


----------



## Red Jacket Mike

When originally using the term to describe the Concerto amp, I was talking about the equipment only, not ambient room noise.
   
  Appreciating the 'black background' a piece of gear has will usually require a very quiet listening environment, though.


----------



## jax

Sorry for the confusion, RJM.  I was responding to the post below.  I realize my comment may not have been misplaced - my bad.  The comment below is not a criticism of the quality of a systems/components black background, but of a specific headphones isolation and the deleterious effects thereof.  Not only will the lack of isolation affect black background, it will also affect all matters of reproduction, some more than others.  Such a headphone might interfere with one making a fair judgment of "black background" if it is judged in a noisy environment.  Black background is not a property of your listening environment though, at least in my understanding of the term.
  
  Quote: 





georgenapalm said:


> I would say a black background is to a greater degree a property of your listening environment. My cans and amps sound dramatically different when I listen to them at work, with high ambient noise from computers, air conditioning, people talking and at home in a quiet room. And indeed, in a quiet  room you get a better perception of dynamic range. Closed headphones might reduce this difference, but not completely.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





> GeorgeNapalm
> I would say a black background is to a greater degree a property of your listening environment. My cans and amps sound dramatically different when I listen to them at work, with high ambient noise from computers, air conditioning, people talking and at home in a quiet room. And indeed, in a quiet  room you get a better perception of dynamic range. Closed headphones might reduce this difference, but not completely.


 
   
  What you are describing is not an attribute of an electronic black background as referred to in an amplifier,  but a function of a drop or increase in DIN which is an external noise factor in the surrounding environment.  The two are completely different elements.


----------



## jc9394

Guys, how's Pioneer SX-780 pair with LCD-2?  Does it have enough power to drive it properly?


----------



## MorbidToaster

It will have more than enough power, but I'm not a big fan of the Pioneer 'house' sound. It's too bright for me, and the low end never felt right without tone controls.
   
  If you have a chance or decision to make I'd check out a Marantz. Maybe a 2238.
  Quote: 





jc9394 said:


> Guys, how's Pioneer SX-780 pair with LCD-2?  Does it have enough power to drive it properly?


----------



## jc9394

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> It will have more than enough power, but I'm not a big fan of the Pioneer 'house' sound. It's too bright for me, and the low end never felt right without tone controls.
> 
> If you have a chance or decision to make I'd check out a Marantz. Maybe a 2238.


 


  I have a 2265B and I think it is kind of warm for LCD-2.


----------



## MorbidToaster

The 2238 was my favorite vintage pair with the LCD 2. I heard the SX 580 and 255R and thought they lacked low end rumble or kick.
   
  Quote: 





jc9394 said:


> I have a 2265B and I think it is kind of warm for LCD-2.


----------



## sphinxvc

Quote:


macedonianhero said:


>


 
  Quote:


brasewel said:


> Yup. I was at a mini meet recently and the host's wife actually thought it sounded better than his Apache with her limited listening experience


 
  Quote:


francoy said:


> You mean an O2 feeding LCD-2s compared with the LCD-2s fed from an Apache???
> (quite a shocker if I got that correctly)


 
  Quote:


loevhagen said:


> Remember, don't panic.
> 
> the host's wife actually *thought* it sounded better than his Apache with her *limited listening experience + "*
> 
> ...


 

 It was a little more specific.  She thought the LCD-3s _*with*_ the O2 as a whole were better than the LCD-2s _*with*_ the Apache.  I tend to agree in some respects.  Both were simultaneously fed off an 840c.


----------



## Francoy

Quote: 





> It was a little more specific.  She thought the LCD-3s _*with*_ the O2 as a whole were better than the LCD-2s _*with*_ the Apache.  I tend to agree in some respects.  Both were simultaneously fed off an 840c.


 

 Thanks for the clarification...
   
  If I might ask, why do you use an O2 instead of the Zodiac’s headphone out? What does it bring to the party?
   
  (I’m asking because I’ve been led to believe that the headphone out from the Zodiac was very good...)


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





sphinxvc said:


> Quote:
> Quote:
> Quote:
> Quote:
> ...


 

 Hmm not the way I remember it. She thought the LCD-3 with the O2 was better than the LCD-3 with the Apache


----------



## sphinxvc

Quote:


francoy said:


> Thanks for the clarification...
> 
> If I might ask, why do you use an O2 instead of the Zodiac’s headphone out? What does it bring to the party?
> 
> (I’m asking because I’ve been led to believe that the headphone out from the Zodiac was very good...)


 

 The Zodiac sounds thinner than the O2 _with the LCD-2s_, the low frequencies don't come off as strong without the O2.  I think it's just a matter of a mismatch between the Z's HP out and the needs of the LCD-2.  If I was using the Edition 8's, I would most definitely ditch the O2.  The Z's HP out is more precise and images better.


----------



## atmospheric

Forgive me for being kind of lazy, but I have about $600 to spend on an amplifier to compliment my LCD-2s.  Does anyone have any recommendations?  I'm currently looking at the Continental V2, which I like because it would be portable as well.
   
  I tried searching the thread, but it's a bit of mess.. and it's simply to long to read.  much thanks in advance.


----------



## obazavil

Check this ones for a start:
   
  Desktop: Lyr
   
  Portable: RSA SR-71B


----------



## Girls Generation

O2?


----------



## sphinxvc

I thought it was just us crazies but it seems Audez'e themselves recommend "a couple of watts" for the LCD-2 (and 3 I assume).
   
   
  Quote from Audez'e Knowledge Base: 





> When deciding what amp to buy It is very subjective and opinions vary a lot. Here are some thoughts on selecting a good amplifiers
> for LCD-2. We have tested the LCD-2 with quite a number of studios and recording engineers.
> 
> The LCD-2 has an impedance of 50 ohms, which is purely resistive and is almost perfectly flat across the entire frequency range.
> ...


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





sphinxvc said:


> I thought it was just us crazies but it seems Audez'e themselves recommend "a couple of watts" for the LCD-2 (and 3 I assume).


 

 That's interesting. Could be why they sound so good balanced since they're getting extra juice.


----------



## Argo Duck

IIRC it's a DIY amp designed by a head-fier, and it has its own thread
  
  Quote: 





girls generation said:


> O2?


----------



## Argo Duck

That _is_ interesting. I was annoyed by what sounded like a short burst of clipping recently with the 1W concerto; thought it was bad production. Except it's not present with the more powerful Taboo. I will double-check this with another (2W) amp I have.
  
  Quote: 





sphinxvc said:


> I thought it was just us crazies but it seems Audez'e themselves recommend "a couple of watts" for the LCD-2 (and 3 I assume).


----------



## khaos974

Quote: 





sphinxvc said:


> I thought it was just us crazies but it seems Audez'e themselves recommend "a couple of watts" for the LCD-2 (and 3 I assume).
> 
> Quote from Audez'e Knowledge Base:
> 
> ...


 

 Their numbers make sense... if you are actually always listening at ear splitting levels.
   
  First, I consider that listening at 90 dB SPL average in a quiet environment is already very loud, that's actually the volume real volume of a symphonic orchestra when you are sitting at the first rank. I usually listen between around 70 dB SPL average. Let's see the kind of headroom we really need: I consider Dutoit's interpretation of the Planets with Montreal Symphonic Orchestra a good record with excellent dynamic range, the loudest part (Mars), is recorded at -20 dB SPL average. So 30 dB headroom is a very large headroom.
   
  So when listening at live orchestra level, one may in very rare case need 1W, but it's certainly not a usual situation.
   
  A few more factoids:
  A concert hall filled with people, no matter how well it as designed acoustically is nover as quiet as a quiet room with a single occupant, which is one the reason orchestras play that loud.
  A THX certified cinema is required to be able to reach 105 dB SPL max with its main speakers and 115 dB SPL max for its LFE channel. Average volume level for movies is 70 dB SPL to 80 dB SPL.


----------



## MacedonianHero

I typically listen around 80dB max (maybe 83-84ish dB peaks) and my GS-1 drives my LCD-3s pretty darn well. 90dB is dangerous to one's hearing and not recommended.


----------



## TigzStudio

Quote: 





sphinxvc said:


> Quote:
> 
> The Zodiac sounds thinner than the O2 _with the LCD-2s_, the low frequencies don't come off as strong without the O2.  I think it's just a matter of a mismatch between the Z's HP out and the needs of the LCD-2.  If I was using the Edition 8's, I would most definitely ditch the O2.  The Z's HP out is more precise and images better.


 

  
  You really have to have a separate amplifier with LCD-2's and the Antelope Zodiac+ from my experience (I have had a Zodiac+ since it was first released basically, so I have lots of time with it).  I agree with you that the sound is thin and feels like the LCD-2 are not getting what they need direct out of the headphone output.  However with a separate high end (insert name here) amplifier and the Zodaic+, odds are you will have a system that will be pretty tough to beat.  The Zodiac+ is definitely one of my favorite DACs.


----------



## preproman

Quote:


macedonianhero said:


> I typically listen around 80dB max (maybe 83-84ish dB peaks) and my GS-1 drives my LCD-3s pretty darn well. 90dB is dangerous to one's hearing and not recommended.


 

 MacedonianHero,
   
  The GS-1 outputs 1w, and if your LCD-3's sound good I'm just thinking that the GS-X's output of 2w out it's balanced output would make the LCD-3 / LCD-2's sound pretty good as well.


----------



## Argo Duck

Well indeed. Thanks khaos for bringing some common sense back to the discussion. In fact, when I re-listened to the offending peak of the offending track with the Concerto, I could no longer detect any problem, nor any difference (of that sort) when compared again with the Taboo. I have noticed the Concerto is a little sensitive to (I think) mains power quality, as level could vary by 1-2dB at different times of day. I live in an agricultural area with heavy start-up mains draw at times.
   
  I listen with level to 80dBA pink noise when doing comparisons, somewhat less than this - probably about 73 pink noise equivalent - for normal listening.
   
  There was a tendency earlier in this thread to attribute some sonic features of the Lyr/LCD2 combination to the Lyr's 4W of power. I wonder if it had more to do with the sonic signatures of the tubes concerned, and the work Schiit put into voicing the overall circuit?

 Quote:


khaos974 said:


> Their numbers make sense... if you are actually always listening at ear splitting levels.
> 
> First, I consider that listening at 90 dB SPL average in a quiet environment is already very loud, that's actually the volume real volume of a symphonic orchestra when you are sitting at the first rank. I usually listen between around 70 dB SPL average. Let's see the kind of headroom we really need: I consider Dutoit's interpretation of the Planets with Montreal Symphonic Orchestra a good record with excellent dynamic range, the loudest part (Mars), is recorded at -20 dB SPL average. So 30 dB headroom is a very large headroom.
> 
> ...


 
  
   


  Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> I typically listen around 80dB max (maybe 83-84ish dB peaks) and my GS-1 drives my LCD-3s pretty darn well. 90dB is dangerous to one's hearing and not recommended.


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





preproman said:


> Quote:
> 
> MacedonianHero,
> 
> The GS-1 outputs 1w, and if your LCD-3's sound good I'm just thinking that the GS-X's output of 2w out it's balanced output would make the LCD-3 / LCD-2's sound pretty good as well.


 


  I'm finding pretty good headroom with the GS-1 and my LCD-3s FWIW.


  Quote: 





argo duck said:


> Well indeed. Thanks khaos for bringing some common sense back to the discussion. In fact, when I re-listened to the offending peak of the offending track with the Concerto, I could no longer detect any problem, nor any difference (of that sort) when compared again with the Taboo. I have noticed the Concerto is a little sensitive to (I think) mains power quality, as level could vary by 1-2dB at different times of day. I live in an agricultural area with heavy start-up mains draw at times.
> 
> I listen with level to 80dBA pink noise when doing comparisons, somewhat less than this - probably about 73 pink noise equivalent - for normal listening.
> 
> ...


 


 Seriously, I would never go above 90dB for any reason with headphones....hearing loss, tinnitus, etc... Not worth the risk. Both my desktop amps can drive my cans over 90-95dB, but I don't just go there for obvious reasons.


----------



## mmayer167

-M


----------



## palchiu

Any tried RWA's Corvina?
   
  Thanks!


----------



## sphinxvc

> Originally Posted by palchiu /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Any tried RWA's Corvina?
> 
> Thanks!





   
  Yes, it's nice, but I feel the mark up is still high for the performance like most RWA products.
   
  The sound, much like AE edition is lush and cohesive.


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





sphinxvc said:


> Yes, it's nice, but I feel the mark up is still high for the performance like most RWA products.
> 
> The sound, much like AE edition is lush and cohesive.


 

 The mark up on the Corvina is not too bad especially considering the fact it's the same amp as the AE so you should get the same sound.


----------



## sphinxvc

Quote:


brasewel said:


> The mark up on the Corvina is not too bad especially considering the fact it's the same amp as the AE so you should get the same sound.


 

 But you don't.  At least from what I remember.


----------



## brasewel

We haven't heard the Corvina. The one at Lee's place was the Non AE version which had crappy tubes. That should have the same sound as the AE version as well.


----------



## tme110

yes, the 2 should be the same - well very similar (the equal parts).
   
  There are 34 posts talking about the Corvina in this thread too.


----------



## Vinnie R.

All,
   
  The Corvina uses the same LiFePO4 battery pack, SMART board, Tube stage, and balanced output stage (if you order with the balanced output stage option) and linear-regulated 12Vdc output (again, an option)... and even the same volume control (but without the remote control).  
   
  The only differences are:
   
  - We packed it into a smaller (10" x 6" x 3") enclosure
  - No digital inputs (no Isabellina Pro dac), but there are 2 analog inputs
  - No line-outs (again, no dac inside)
  - No ALO Audio Audeze Edition balanced cable / No carrying case
   
  So the sound you get with the Balanced Corvina (compared to the Audeze Edition) depends on the dac you use, and the cables
  that connect them.  
   
  If you already have a preferred dac, the Balanced Corvina will do you right with LCD2s, LCD3s, HE500s, HE-6s, Senn 800s, 650s, 600s, etc. and others that need a big voltage swing.  
   
   
  I hope this clarifies things (if not, feel free to email me),
   
  Vinnie


----------



## sphinxvc

Quote:


brasewel said:


> We haven't heard the Corvina. The one at Lee's place was the Non AE version which had crappy tubes. That should have the same sound as the AE version as well.


 

 The Corvina was at the last NY area meet, set up right next to the AE Isabellina.


----------



## sphinxvc

Quote:


vinnie r. said:


> All,
> 
> The Corvina uses the same LiFePO4 battery pack, SMART board, Tube stage, and balanced output stage (if you order with the balanced output stage option) and linear-regulated 12Vdc output (again, an option)... and even the same volume control (but without the remote control).
> 
> ...


 

 So Palchiu, it would depend on your source it seems.  Perhaps the source Vinnie was using at the last NY meet wasn't at the same level as his AE DAC/amplifier which was right next to it.  Vinnie, I'm curious what source you were using.  What I ask myself is performance aside, do I like any amplifiers at $1K more than the Corvina?  Yes, I do.  But _two_ of the three or four I'm thinking of are _commissioned DIY_, so it's an unfair comparison to say the least, because you do trade off the "vendor" experience RWA would offer.  It's all about trade-offs.  
   
  This is just my point of view as a consumer_,_ in terms of getting the most amplifier for my money.  It's a "FWIW."
   
  Again, Vinnie, curious what you were using as a source.


----------



## palchiu

I've done some soldering work just for fun.
   
  I'm looking for a reference amp for LCD-2 to understand how I did, better with balanced input. All DACs I've gets XLR out, and possible compact size.
   
  I've tried Lyr and EF6 at local audio shop, they're not good enough to be reference one.
   
  Dark Star is the one but it's huge and out my budget.
   
  Thanks everyone!
   
  Pal


----------



## dagothur

I ordered an NFB-10SE last week based on the recommendations here, and it should be shipping out tomorrow (Chinese New Year).  For those of you who either own the NFB or have had some experience with it, how would you describe the sound with the LCD-2?


----------



## mmayer167

OOOOO! Congrats dagothur   
   
  -M


----------



## dagothur

Quote: 





mmayer167 said:


> OOOOO! Congrats dagothur
> 
> -M


 


  I am very excited for it.  I keep checking my email for shipping info from King-Wa every twenty minutes.  I have heard very good things of the combo.


----------



## darren700

Quote: 





dagothur said:


> I am very excited for it.  I keep checking my email for shipping info from King-Wa every twenty minutes.  I have heard very good things of the combo.


 


  I too have a NFB-10SE On order and will be purchasing some LCD2's with my tax return. I CANT WAIT!! So excited lol. Will be picking up a Ibasso PB2 & DB2 combo as well for balanced portable (eventually)


----------



## dagothur

Quote: 





darren700 said:


> I too have a NFB-10SE On order and will be purchasing some LCD2's with my tax return. I CANT WAIT!! So excited lol. Will be picking up a Ibasso PB2 & DB2 combo as well for balanced portable (eventually)


 


  Future NFB owner fist bump.  I wish the Chinese New Year ended a few days earlier so I could get my NFB Monday.


----------



## mmayer167

^haha, I think you will really like that beast! I have read so many good things about it  do you have a balanced cable lined up for your lcd-2 yet?
   
  -M


----------



## dagothur

Quote: 





mmayer167 said:


> ^haha, I think you will really like that beast! I have read so many good things about it  do you have a balanced cable lined up for your lcd-2 yet?
> 
> -M


 


  Not yet.  If I wanted to, I could get the balanced mod that Audio-Gd offers and have Dan do it on my current LCD-2 cable.


----------



## darren700

Fist bump back to ya dagothur..
   
  I dont even have a LCD2 yet and i have ordered a  Norse Audio 6ft 8 Wire Norn Balanced along with 1/4 and 3.5mm Adapters


----------



## dagothur

Quote: 





darren700 said:


> Fist bump back to ya dagothur..
> 
> I dont even have a LCD2 yet and i have ordered a  Norse Audio 6ft 8 Wire Norn Balanced along with 1/4 and 3.5mm Adapters


 


  You should have just ordered the balanced mod with the NFB.  It's only thirty dollars and lets you just pop on an adapter so you can use the regular 1/4th as well as the balanced without going for a separate cable.


----------



## darren700

ys I was aware of that but I wanted a really nice custom cable... Imo for headphones of this caliber the cable its worth it


----------



## mmayer167

^ funzies you guys. Major Jelly 
   
  -M


----------



## jax

Quote: 





darren700 said:


> Fist bump back to ya dagothur..
> 
> I dont even have a LCD2 yet and i have ordered a  Norse Audio 6ft 8 Wire Norn Balanced along with 1/4 and 3.5mm Adapters


 


  Did someone say balanced custom cable for LCD-X?!? Shameless plug for to the one for sale in my sig file below.  I may sell my balanced V181 too.  I'm stepping out of the world of headphones for a breather but will still stick with IEM's for my occasional need for private listening.  With the speakers being a strong priority, the headphone rig was just sitting unused for way too long to justify the expense and space it takes up.  Alas, the rev. 2's already have found themselves a good home. I'm still keeping an ear out for the HD700's - I'll be curious to see what the compromises are from its big brother.  I always thought the ideal cans would be the child of the LCD-2 and the HD800.  The LCD-3's I heard are a step in that direction, but the price is a big step in the wrong direction.  For me, I'd rather spend money on music, and much prefer listening live or on speakers. So much music...so little time.


----------



## Argo Duck

^ I prefer speakers too by far, but not always considerate for my co-occupants (some of them furry) hence LCD2 etc is a great second-best.
   
*dagothur* congrats - it'll be a big change from your Opera (?) IIRC. *olor1n* posted plenty of impressions (especially in the NFB10 thread) about the combination and especially liked the 10SE balanced.


----------



## Naim.F.C

I'm not sure the power of the Lyr actually makes a stark audible difference to tell the truth. I've read numerous posts on different forums talking about amps that have less (sometimes a lot less) power than the Lyr's but sounding better with the LCD-2's and other cans. That's not to say the Lyr doesn't sound great (I haven't heard it yet), just saying that having copious amounts of power isn't the be all and end all with amp design or sonic ability. I'd certainly be interested to hear, read or see a comparison between the O2 and the Lyr


----------



## Argo Duck

This is certainly my view. OTOH, the Lyr does sound very good and it responds very well to tube-rolling - tubes make a large difference.
   
  IMHO, its association with_ power _distracts from what the Lyr is actually about. Which is a thoughtfully designed amp built at an honest price.
  
  Quote: 





naim.f.c said:


> *I'm not sure the power of the Lyr actually makes a stark audible difference* to tell the truth. I've read numerous posts on different forums talking about amps that have less (sometimes a lot less) power than the Lyr's but sounding better with the LCD-2's and other cans. That's not to say the Lyr doesn't sound great (I haven't heard it yet), just saying that having copious amounts of power isn't the be all and end all with amp design or sonic ability. I'd certainly be interested to hear, read or see a comparison between the O2 and the Lyr


----------



## buson160man

I got my cord from quintessence audio in chicago.But my cord is a short one.I bought it a couple two three years ago.


----------



## buson160man

Quote: 





kremer930 said:


> Wow.  I am surprised to hear of such a significant difference from a power cord.  Do you also have a power conditioner?  I dont use either and would be interested to gain some understanding of how much difference these kind of things make, including audiophile fuses.
> 
> Cheers


 

 I have been using upgraded power cords for quite some time and have found them to be a worthwhile upgrade to improve the sound of your system.But before you buy one I would suggest you try the power cord in your system.The results can vary quite a bit from system to system.I might suggest that you try as many as you can before you commit to one.As far as fuses are concerned I replace the fuse in my cd player and my home theater audio video receiver.I got sizeable improvement inthe sonic performance from both pieces of equipment.Fuse upgrades have been around for a couple two three years.There are several companies producing premium fuses.I have tried hi-fi tuning fuses and have found them to be worthwhile investments to obtain the most from your existing equipment.I must comment that I recently upgraded the fuse in my cd player.I was using the hi-fi tuning gold fuse and upgraded to a hi-fi tuning supreme fuse and the change in performance was surprisingly large just going from their gold fuse to the supreme fuse was amazing.The supreme fuses cost me about 50 or 60 dollars.The cost of the fuse was a pittance when you measure the performance increase they wring from the equipment they are used with.The change was at least and most likely greater than upgrading the power cord which can be pretty expensive on the better power cords.In my system the fuse upgrade was at least as much as a kubala sosna emotion cord which was quite expensive and now that is reasonable for 50 or 60 dollars.If you are interested in trying the hi-fi tuning fuses(I suggest the silver star fuse or the supreme) I purchsed my fuses from music direct in chicago. I hope this was helpful.


----------



## WarriorAnt

I'm going to try a  a hi-fi tuning supreme fuse in my W4S DAC-2 as soon as the new batch arrives in the U.S.


----------



## dagothur

Quote: 





argo duck said:


> ^ I prefer speakers too by far, but not always considerate for my co-occupants (some of them furry) hence LCD2 etc is a great second-best.
> 
> *dagothur* congrats - it'll be a big change from your Opera (?) IIRC. *olor1n* posted plenty of impressions (especially in the NFB10 thread) about the combination and especially liked the 10SE balanced.


 


  I own a Nuforce Icon HDP, actually.  I hope it's a positive change from that.


----------



## olor1n

Don't know about the HDP, but the 10SE excels in bass rendition and overall dynamics with the rev.2. It's where I find the Lyr/Bifrost combo lacking in comparison.


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





naim.f.c said:


> I'm not sure the power of the Lyr actually makes a stark audible difference to tell the truth. I've read numerous posts on different forums talking about amps that have less (sometimes a lot less) power than the Lyr's but sounding better with the LCD-2's and other cans. That's not to say the Lyr doesn't sound great (I haven't heard it yet), just saying that having copious amounts of power isn't the be all and end all with amp design or sonic ability. I'd certainly be interested to hear, read or see a comparison between the O2 and the Lyr


 


  Actually if you find the right tube combination, the Lyr is one heck of an amp for the LCD-2s.


----------



## dagothur

I've had experience with the Lyr/Bifrost combo and the LCD-2s, and it was quite possibly the best thing I've ever heard.  The Lyr was stocked with the Lorenz tubes, and powered the LCD-2s very well.  Most of the shine in the combo seemed to be from the Bifrost, however.


----------



## Argo Duck

Oh right. Pardon my ageing memory 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 You participated in an amp comparison and one of the others had an Opera I now think but could easily be wrong about that too!
  Hmm, maybe it's me has the Opera?!
   
  I hope your 10SE will be a positive change too.
   
  Quote: 





dagothur said:


> I own a Nuforce Icon HDP, actually.  I hope it's a positive change from that.


----------



## SHAHZADA123

A couple days ago I received an EAR HP4 amp which I had bought essentially for my Grados.
  Turns out, this is one heck of an amp for the LCD-2s!!
  I couldn't believe my ears!
  The soundstage has increased significantly, both sideways and in depth.
  And the treble is UN......BELIEVABLE. Smooth & extended. Never thought the LCD-2s could impart such sweet treble!
  It beats my other favourite Stingray/LCD-2 combo in all areas except the bass.
  In the low end thump, Stingray is king!
  All, obviously, in my experience & opinion.


----------



## googleli

I am vastly interested in this amp especially in comparison with the other totl amps at the moment, like the Woo Audio ones, the Dark Star and my Liquid Fire and Leben. I heard it is one of the ultimate headphone amps in history and would really like to give it a listen. Where did you buy it, and for how much?

  
  Quote: 





shahzada123 said:


> A couple days ago I received an EAR HP4 amp which I had bought essentially for my Grados.
> Turns out, this is one heck of an amp for the LCD-2s!!
> I couldn't believe my ears!
> The soundstage has increased significantly, both sideways and in depth.
> ...


----------



## darren700

Posted this in the NFB-10 thread as well but would also like the opinions of people here as well.
   
   After reading through both this and the NFB-10 thread there really seems to be conflicting opinions with the NFB-10SE and LCD2 Combo.
   
  Some people say its a great match, while others claim it is way to bright or does not preform well.
   
  I currently have a NFB-10SE (DIR 9001) on order and plan on purchasing a pair of LCD2's in the next month or so. (still have not decided on V1 used vs V2 new)
   
  I am really hoping that i am happy with the combo as i sold my old setup specifically for the LCD2 and NFB-10SE. (I had Audio-GD NFB3 and C2.2 before).
   
  would really love some more impressions from people with this pairing!!
   
  maybe this is just a problem with the LCD2v2's because of increased treble? have the people experiencing issues tried eq'ing?
  
  thanks!


----------



## SHAHZADA123

Quote: 





googleli said:


> I am vastly interested in this amp especially in comparison with the other totl amps at the moment, like the Woo Audio ones, the Dark Star and my Liquid Fire. I heard it is one of the ultimate headphone amps in history and would really like to give it a listen. Where did you buy it, and for how much?


 
  I took a risk and bought it at eBay for $2400!
  In my limited experience, it's the best I've heard so far. Great synergy with the HD800s as well.
  Ironically, I didnt like it with both PS1000s & GS1000i!


----------



## dagothur

The NFB-10SE has 6 filter options up to 96khz, so if you don't like the treble you can just change the filter setting.
 It was fluffygdog95 who had the Opera during the three man mini-meet.


----------



## TigzStudio

Although I only spent a short time auditioning the EAR HP4 recently. 
   
  What I heard with the LCD-2 and LCD-3 was quite fantastic.  Really sounded great and everything just seemed right... I am quite tempted to add one to the amp stable.


----------



## WarriorAnt

What's the EAR HP4 cost these days?


----------



## grokit

It's over $5k new.


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





grokit said:


> It's over $5k new.


 







 That is crazy.


----------



## Argo Duck

Ah of course. The three of you shared some useful comparisons when I asked, which was the only reason I remembered at all!
   
  IF the 10SE implementation is like the Meier stagedac's the effects are detectable but subtle. Most are "just noticeable differences".
 (Edit: removed clause with useless info)
  Quote: 





dagothur said:


> The NFB-10SE has 6 filter options up to 96khz, so if you don't like the treble you can just change the filter setting.
> *It was fluffygdog95 who had the Opera during the three man mini-meet.*


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





brasewel said:


> That is crazy.


 


  I didn't want to be the first one to say that!  Especially just for driving headphones.


----------



## KingStyles

> I am vastly interested in this amp especially in comparison with the other totl amps at the moment, like the Woo Audio ones, the Dark Star and my Liquid Fire and Leben. I heard it is one of the ultimate headphone amps in history and would really like to give it a listen. Where did you buy it, and for how much?




If you are looking at TOTL amps, you need to give the Eddie Currant BA consideration. I dont think there is much that tops it in actual listening test.


----------



## darren700

anyone know if a millet hybrid max would be able to drive lcd2? One is in the classifieds for cheap and I thought I'd try it out for my denons, but would love if it could power lcd2 as well.


----------



## jc9394

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> I didn't want to be the first one to say that!  Especially just for driving headphones.


 


   
  For that price,  can get a LF and LCD-3...


----------



## Radio_head

Quote: 





grokit said:


> It's over $5k new.


 
  I've seen it sell between $1900-$2100 a few times now.  There's one for sale now on Gearslutz (in mint condition) that I'm keeping my eye on.  If the price drops low enough...


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





radio_head said:


> I've seen it sell between $1900-$2100 a few times now.  There's one for sale now on Gearslutz (in mint condition) that I'm keeping my eye on.  If the price drops low enough...


 


  Not much resale value IMO...less than 50%.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





radio_head said:


> I've seen it sell between $1900-$2100 a few times now.  There's one for sale now on Gearslutz (in mint condition) that I'm keeping my eye on.  If the price drops low enough...


 

 Gearslutz has a for sale thread?


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





jc9394 said:


> For that price,  can get a LF and LCD-3...


 


  To be honest, I have found that I have a preference for valves to be on the outside of an amp displayed in the air radiating their glow...


----------



## SHAHZADA123

Quote: 





kingstyles said:


> If you are looking at TOTL amps, you need to give the Eddie Currant BA consideration. I dont think there is much that tops it in actual listening test.


 

 That's good to know.
  Craig is building one for me and it'll be interesting to see how it compares with the EAR & the Stingray.


----------



## tink97

I am going to say a good amp for the LCD-2 is the decware mini torii


----------



## Argo Duck

^ and the decware taboo is pretty good too!


----------



## jc9394

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> To be honest, I have found that I have a preference for valves to be on the outside of an amp displayed in the air radiating their glow...


 


   
  If that is the preference, WA5 and LCD-3 are still less...


----------



## Naim.F.C

Add the V200 to the list of recommendations. Wow does this thing pair well with it!


----------



## Radio_head

Quote:


warriorant said:


> Gearslutz has a for sale thread
> *Yes.  Although now that I think about it, it may only be visible to registered users.*


 
  Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> Not much resale value IMO...less than 50%.


 
  Unless you buy it used - chances are then you'll lose less than 10% (unless someone gouges you on the prices.)
   
  Also, Ear has raised it's MSRP several times.  It was originally somewhere around $2500, raised to ~$3500, etc.  So some of the sellers who bought years ago may not have lost that much.  
  Another thing to keep in mind is that there aren't many headphone amps that retain their value over long (10+) periods of time. (The whole headphone amp market is still in it's infancy compared to the speaker amp market - a 10 year old headphone amp is ancient.) The HP-4 was released over 10 years ago.  Companies go in and out of favor, and most (though not EAR in this case) release new "better" products making less market for the old product used at the new product's prices.  Some of the Moth amps, the Krell headphone amp, the Stax T2 amp - those are some headphone amps that come to mind that don't seem to have lost value (and in some cases gain value as a rare collector's item.)  The Ear-HP4 is not one of those.


----------



## sphinxvc

Quote:


radio_head said:


> the Krell headphone amp


 

  That thing is sublime.  Haven't heard it with LCD-2s but with the K1000 ::


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





naim.f.c said:


> Add the V200 to the list of recommendations. Wow does this thing pair well with it!


 


  It sure does!


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





radio_head said:


> Some of the Moth amps, the Krell headphone amp,


 

  I've had many Krell amps but I did not know they made a headphone amp.   What is the model?


----------



## Radio_head

KSA-5


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





radio_head said:


> KSA-5


 
   
  I'll have to keep an eye or ear out for one...


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





radio_head said:


> I've seen it sell between $1900-$2100 a few times now.  There's one for sale now on Gearslutz (in mint condition) that I'm keeping my eye on.  If the price drops low enough...


 

 Gearslutz?? That is a catchy name


----------



## brasewel

Quote: 





sphinxvc said:


> Quote:
> 
> That thing is sublime.  Haven't heard it with LCD-2s but with the K1000 ::


 

 x2. Even though I don't really like the K1000


----------



## Radio_head

Quote:


warriorant said:


> I'll have to keep an eye or ear out for one...


 
  There was one for sale on Audiogon recently, but the seller wanted $5,000.  I bet if you do some Head-Fi searches there are threads on it here.  I have some recollection of KG ripping into it for not being balanced.  Not sure if I read that here or elsewhere.


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





radio_head said:


> Quote:
> There was one for sale on Audiogon recently, but the seller wanted $5,000.  I bet if you do some Head-Fi searches there are threads on it here.  I have some recollection of KG ripping into it for not being balanced.  Not sure if I read that here or elsewhere.


 

 Yeah I don't know what was up with that seller because there was another one going for about $950 or so.


----------



## Radio_head

I had seen one sell for $1500 a couple years ago.  I have no idea of the current going rate, (there were 500 made) but I had seen two or three in the last couple years with steadily rising asking prices.  Hence my original "not a losing value amp" comment.


----------



## K3cT

If the Zana Deux has a very poor synergy with the LCD2, I wonder whether the Balancing Act would fare differently?


----------



## KingStyles

> If the Zana Deux has a very poor synergy with the LCD2, I wonder whether the Balancing Act would fare differently?




The BA has awesome synergy with the lcd2. I had a liquid fire and a BA hooked up to my front end and I would take the BA over the LF for the lcd2. The LF was very good also though.


----------



## dagothur

Has anyone tried the LCD-2 with an Audio Gd Phoenix or Reference 7?


----------



## darren700

I would be interested to know if the Pheonix is in fact a setup up from the NFB-10SE. The Pheonix puts out less power at the LCD2's impedance but the amp design on the pheonix is much more overkill. I am considering a pheonix in the future but am unsure it would provide an upgrade vs the NFB-10SE


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





kingstyles said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


  Isn't the Zana Deux an OTL amp and the BA a transformer coupled tube amp? That alone would make a big difference IMO.


----------



## KingStyles

MH - you are correct.


----------



## tme110

Like every other amp people have used the phoenix with the LCD and liked it - though I'd pick the Master 5 at this point.  The Ref7 is a DAC.
  
  Quote: 





dagothur said:


> Has anyone tried the LCD-2 with an Audio Gd Phoenix or Reference 7?


----------



## dagothur

Quote: 





tme110 said:


> The Ref7 is a DAC.


 

 I know this, but nonetheless I was wondering if people had included it in the chain at some point.  The other day while waiting for my 10SE to ship I was thinking of a TOTL purely Audio Gd brand setup, so I thought I would ask for the experience of others out of curiosity.


----------



## sphinxvc

Quote: 





dagothur said:


> I know this, but nonetheless I was wondering if people had included it in the chain at some point.  The other day while waiting for my 10SE to ship I was thinking of a TOTL purely Audio Gd brand setup, so I thought I would ask for the experience of others out of curiosity.


 
   
  You should ask Currawong.


----------



## darren700

Quote: 





tme110 said:


> Like every other amp people have used the phoenix with the LCD and liked it - though I'd pick the Master 5 at this point.  The Ref7 is a DAC.


 


  Why not the Master 6 as it puts out more power? The master 6 and Ref7.1 is definately my dream setup.... but i doubt ill be able to afford that anytime soon 
  i think ill be happy with the NFB-10SE for a while, as im really liking it so far


----------



## buson160man

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> I'm going to try a  a hi-fi tuning supreme fuse in my W4S DAC-2 as soon as the new batch arrives in the U.S.


 


 When you get your fuse I would like to get your opinion on what your thoughts are about the upgrade.I know in my system every component has a hifi tuning fuse in it and i found in my experience so far that the improvement in the equipment performance was defintely worth the effort.When you get your fuse or fuses drop me a reply.
   
   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          buson160man


----------



## WarriorAnt

Quote: 





buson160man said:


> When you get your fuse I would like to get your opinion on what your thoughts are about the upgrade.I know in my system every component has a hifi tuning fuse in it and i found in my experience so far that the improvement in the equipment performance was defintely worth the effort.When you get your fuse or fuses drop me a reply.
> 
> 
> buson160man


 

 Anything has to be an improvement over the crappy little fuses found in most audio gear.


----------



## buson160man

Quote: 





warriorant said:


> Anything has to be an improvement over the crappy little fuses found in most audio gear.


 

 Amen


----------



## tme110

But what do you need the extra power for?  certainly not lcd-2s.  Besides more power doesnt mean better, and it could make it too powerful to be useful to sensitive headphones.
  Quote: 





darren700 said:


> Why not the Master 6 as it puts out more power? The master 6 and Ref7.1 is definately my dream setup.... but i doubt ill be able to afford that anytime soon
> i think ill be happy with the NFB-10SE for a while, as im really liking it so far


----------



## darren700

Hmm, i am a bit confused by audio-gd's page for the master5/6
   
  If you refer to the picture below from their site, the Master-5 is on the left and the Master-6 is on the right. Based on the chart layout it appears that the 5 has alot less power than the 6 (1700mw vs 9000mw @ 50ohm) but i do not think that is the proper way to intemperate it. I think that both amps run in class A until they hit 1700mw and then it switched to discrete power? Therefore the only difference between the 5 and the 6 is that the 6 has more gain applied in both high and low mode? i would appreciate others opinions.


----------



## dagothur

That is a ridiculous amount of power.


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





dagothur said:


> That is a ridiculous amount of power.


 

 Have you tried powering the HE-6s?


----------



## dagothur

Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> Have you tried powering the HE-6s?


 


    Wasn't the Lyr designed for that?  I'm pretty sure that most people don't have the Lyr set at max volume when they use the HE-6s with it, and the Master 6 has 1.5x the power.


----------



## tme110

It's obviously only Class-a to a certain point but there's not enough info to infere that it switches at 1700mw.


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





dagothur said:


> Wasn't the Lyr designed for that?  I'm pretty sure that most people don't have the Lyr set at max volume when they use the HE-6s with it, and the Master 6 has 1.5x the power.


 

 The Lyr was good with the HE-6s, but they do respond to even more power...trust me.


----------



## dagothur

Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> The Lyr was good with the HE-6s, but they do respond to even more power...trust me.


 


  I will have to, as I've never heard the HE-6's.  I've always wanted to, but they're too expensive on their own, disregarding amp requirements.
 On an unrelated note, I'm going to be receiving my NFB-10SE tomorrow, and will post initial impressions with my Nuforce as a basis of comparison.  King-Wa managed to get it to me in three or four days, from Hong Kong to Wisconsin.


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





dagothur said:


> I will have to, as I've never heard the HE-6's.  I've always wanted to, but they're too expensive on their own, disregarding amp requirements.
> On an unrelated note, I'm going to be receiving my NFB-10SE tomorrow, and will post initial impressions with my Nuforce as a basis of comparison.  King-Wa managed to get it to me in three or four days, from Hong Kong to Wisconsin.


 

 Nice...keep us posted.


----------



## dagothur

I received my NFB-10SE, and have been listening to it for the past 20 minutes or so.  Initial impressions are that this is a noticeable and worthwhile improvement over my Nuforce.  If I still had the option of comparing it to the Lyr/Bifrost I could tell you if it had perfect synergy or not, but so far I am extremely pleased with it.  The NFB is phenomenal across the board, at least with the third filter setting.  More impressions will come soon as I do more serious A/B testing.


----------



## olor1n

Quote: 





dagothur said:


> I received my NFB-10SE, and have been listening to it for the past 20 minutes or so.  Initial impressions are that this is a noticeable and worthwhile improvement over my Nuforce.  If I still had the option of comparing it to the Lyr/Bifrost I could tell you if it had perfect synergy or not, but so far I am extremely pleased with it.  The NFB is phenomenal across the board, at least with the third filter setting.  More impressions will come soon as I do more serious A/B testing.


 


  Glad you find it a worthwhile improvement over your previous setup. How good is that bass?


----------



## dagothur

Quote: 





olor1n said:


> Glad you find it a worthwhile improvement over your previous setup. How good is that bass?


 


  The bass is very tight and well controlled.  Although there's a little more impact on the Nuforce, the NFB is more dynamic and energetic.  Transience is much better on the NFB, as all of the instruments feel distinct from one another.  Overall, the amp is very clean and detailed.  Mids are gorgeous and smooth.  Listening to Diana Krall is phenomenal.  It feels like somebody took the Nuforce, supercharged it and made everything crisper and cleaner.


----------



## olor1n

The bass and dynamics are what I miss most about the 10SE. The Lyr/Bifrost combo has more air and smoother upper register, but dynamics are less explosive and slam and weight are sightly compromised.


----------



## dagothur

The Lyr/Bifrost combo with the LCD-2 is absolutely phenomenal.  As I said, if I had the combo here to compare against my 10SE I might be able to say definitively, but so far I think the 10SE is in the same league.


----------



## mmayer167

Glad to see you like what you are hearing so far! 
   
  -M


----------



## dagothur

Quote: 





mmayer167 said:


> Glad to see you like what you are hearing so far!
> 
> -M


 


  I am too.  It cost me $568 with shipping, but I think it was worth it.  I think the NFB is one of few amps that would pair well with your paradoxes.  It's neutral, detailed, but still musical.


----------



## mmayer167

I hope to hear it sometime soon! I can't get enough of the paradoxes these days. So happy with my one HP setup. 
   
  I'll keep you posted as to when I'm in the area. 
   
  -M


----------



## Mr.Sneis

Apologies for regressing a bit.  Does anyone remember who said/where was it said that the Zana Deux was not so good for the LCD-2?  I'd like to throw in my hat and say that the ZD is once again a pleasant surprise.  I moved down from balanced Equilibrato SE back to the ZD Single Ended with the stock cables and I must say it's absolutely nothing to sneeze (!) at.  The Equilibrato had a completely different presentation imo, like two different flavors.
   
  Whatever the case, maybe the tubes weren't right?


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





mr.sneis said:


> Apologies for regressing a bit.  Does anyone remember who said/where was it said that the Zana Deux was not so good for the LCD-2?  I'd like to throw in my hat and say that the ZD is once again a pleasant surprise.  I moved down from balanced Equilibrato SE back to the ZD Single Ended with the stock cables and I must say it's absolutely nothing to sneeze (!) at.  The Equilibrato had a completely different presentation imo, like two different flavors.
> 
> *Whatever the case, maybe the tubes weren't right?*


 

 That's the issue when some dismiss a tube amp with a particular set of headphones....I always wonder if they tried to get the right tube combination?


----------



## dagothur

There are usually tube rolling threads for the more popular tube amps, aren't there?  I was thinking of going for the Lyr with the LCD-2, but I really didn't want the hassle of tube rolling.


----------



## darren700

im hoping the upcoming schiit balanced solid state amp will pair well with the LCD2.
   
  It would be interesting to compare its amp to the NFB-10SE using the NFB-10SE's XLR Out to feed Schiit Balanced.
   
  I like my NFB-10SE with LCD2v2 but definately notice some of the silibance and harsh highs others are claiming.
  I am also going to get an objective 2 to compare soon as well.


----------



## dagothur

Quote: 





darren700 said:


> I like my NFB-10SE with LCD2v2 but definately notice some of the silibance and harsh highs others are claiming.


 

 This may be because I'm coming from a bright, cold amp, but the highs don't seem sibilant or harsh at all to me.  Over all, the sound is much cleaner and more textured than what the Nuforce supplied.  The highs do indeed seem more stark to me, but that's because the NFB bring backs the presence and instrument separation that I liked with my D7000s.  Although there's less impact, and the NFB is on the musical side of neutral, I don't find the highs to be harsh.  I believe I had the chance to use the LCD-2s with the Compass, and at that point, the highs were indeed harsh.  But with the NFB, everything just feels more detailed and natural.


----------



## YoengJyh

If your track recording flaw.. the 10SE will reveal you the sibilance. Trust me~
   
  Darn!


----------



## keph

hi there im new to the LCD2 i got the Rev.1 few days ago..im willing to spend maximum 600$ on an amp for these cans im trying to figure out some of the audio-gd amps can someone help me choose between the C-2.2 or the NFB 10SE??since ive already have a decent DAC i would just like an amp that can really give almost 100% potential out of these headphones..pls help me choose or any other recommendations?
   
  THX


----------



## K3cT

Quote: 





mr.sneis said:


> Apologies for regressing a bit.  Does anyone remember who said/where was it said that the Zana Deux was not so good for the LCD-2?  I'd like to throw in my hat and say that the ZD is once again a pleasant surprise.  I moved down from balanced Equilibrato SE back to the ZD Single Ended with the stock cables and I must say it's absolutely nothing to sneeze (!) at.  The Equilibrato had a completely different presentation imo, like two different flavors.
> 
> Whatever the case, maybe the tubes weren't right?


 


  Tis' was I who said that. Aren't there several revisions of the Zana Deux though so it might be possible that later revision can pump out more current to satisfy the LCD2's electrical requirements better? The one that I listened extensively with the LCD2 was one of the older units. 
   
  Speaking of that, I'm curious how the 2A3 sounds since it's specifically designed for current-hungry orthos. 
   
   
   
   
   
  Quote: 





keph said:


> hi there im new to the LCD2 i got the Rev.1 few days ago..im willing to spend maximum 600$ on an amp for these cans im trying to figure out some of the audio-gd amps can someone help me choose between the C-2.2 or the NFB 10SE??since ive already have a decent DAC i would just like an amp that can really give almost 100% potential out of these headphones..pls help me choose or any other recommendations?
> 
> THX


 


  Back in Jakarta, mate?


----------



## keph

Quote:  





> Back in Jakarta, mate?


 


   
   
  nope still here in beijing...hehehe and got a rev1 just like yours...love it so much im just trying to get a new amp can u suggest me any??im looking at the audio-gd C 2.2 or the NFB 10SE but since i have a decent dac already i might go for the C 2.2


----------



## Mr.Sneis

Quote: 





k3ct said:


> Tis' was I who said that. Aren't there several revisions of the Zana Deux though so it might be possible that later revision can pump out more current to satisfy the LCD2's electrical requirements better? The one that I listened extensively with the LCD2 was one of the older units.
> 
> Speaking of that, I'm curious how the 2A3 sounds since it's specifically designed for current-hungry orthos.


 

  
  I use a 6sl7gt for the driver tube which is a "high mu" tube -- I also keep my ZDSE on high gain for the most part. I don't do super high volume listening because of where this rig is located but I'm well between 9 o'clock and never really get beyond 12 for anything.  Maybe it was the tube setup you had going on?  I'm sure the older Zanas were just fixed high gain unfortunately I'm no technical expert on the whole power vs implementation debate -  luckily I don't see any lack of power in my listening!
   
  As for the 2a3, I found with the amp I had at the time power may have been more challenging with say a k1000 (maybe a he-6 today) but it was perfect for most anything else.


----------



## keph

Audio-Gd C-2.2 just arrived..love the sound of it..now my LCD2 and HE-500 can sing well..hehe


----------



## K3cT

Quote: 





mr.sneis said:


> I use a 6sl7gt for the driver tube which is a "high mu" tube -- I also keep my ZDSE on high gain for the most part. I don't do super high volume listening because of where this rig is located but I'm well between 9 o'clock and never really get beyond 12 for anything.  Maybe it was the tube setup you had going on?  I'm sure the older Zanas were just fixed high gain unfortunately I'm no technical expert on the whole power vs implementation debate -  luckily I don't see any lack of power in my listening!
> 
> As for the 2a3, I found with the amp I had at the time power may have been more challenging with say a k1000 (maybe a he-6 today) but it was perfect for most anything else.


 


  Yeah, it has been a while so I couldn't remember what tubes the owner used and it's a shame I didn't get a chance to roll tubes with the unit. 
   
  Sounds the 2A3 is promising! How do you find it compares with your Zana sonics-wise?


  Quote: 





keph said:


> Audio-Gd C-2.2 just arrived..love the sound of it..now my LCD2 and HE-500 can sing well..hehe


 


  Ah, I thought you were gonna buy the popular NFB10SE.


----------



## keph

nope since i ended up buying the DAC19DSP1 too hehe...i dont really like the idea of and amp and dac combo...btw how does the Master 6 handle the LCD-2??? im planning to get one too...
  Quote:  





> Ah, I thought you were gonna buy the popular NFB10SE.


----------



## Br777

FS: DIY Cavalli Audio Stacker II tube hybrid amp


----------



## dagothur

In the fall, I'm thinking of upgrading my computer and perhaps adding to my audio set-up.  I will either be adding the Koss ESP-950 to get a taste of the electrostatic, or perhaps upgrading my amp/DAC.  Upgrading the source/amp component of my chain from the NFB would likely be expensive, so it might end up in the spring.  Either way, what should I upgrade to, knowing that I really enjoy the neutrality and textured sound of the NFB-10SE?


----------



## D2Cowones

I am actually driving the lcd-2 r2 with an Icon Audio HP8 (http://www.iconaudio.com/portfolio-item/icon-audio-hp8-mkii/)
  and a dac19dsp as a source, and they pair really well.
  This amp is able to drive also  such a opposite profile headphones like HD800, so very pleased with it


----------



## dagothur

Quote: 





d2cowones said:


> I am actually driving the lcd-2 r2 with an Icon Audio HP8 (http://www.iconaudio.com/portfolio-item/icon-audio-hp8-mkii/)
> and a dac19dsp as a source, and they pair really well.
> This amp is able to drive also  such a opposite profile headphones like HD800, so very pleased with it


 


  I assume if it can drive the HD800s it has some juice, but do you know what the actual power rating is?


----------



## D2Cowones

Hi dagothur, I don't know and unfortunately is not stated in their brochure....


----------



## dagothur

Quote: 





d2cowones said:


> Hi dagothur, I don't know and unfortunately is not stated in their brochure....


 

 Hm.  That's troubling, isn't it?  I might just shoot them an email and ask what the power rating is myself.


----------



## Kremer930

Have you guys sen the Schiit intermediate amp yet? 8watts and only does balanced. Another choice to add to the list.


----------



## szanella

Hey guys!
   
  Even though I read this topic almost completely, and a lot of reviews spreaded throught out many other topics, I'd still like to listen to your opinions once again, just to be sure hehehe.
   
  I'm setting for Ortho, finally!
  I currently have as a main rig a Denon D7000 and a Ultrasone Pro 900, with a Schiit Asgard amp and a Maverick D1 DAC.
   
  Now, I've got a He-500 coming and will probably get an LCD-2 in the very near future, so I'm looking to upgrade both DAC and amp to a better level.
   
  For all I've read, I've come to three possible choices:
   
  1) Schiit Lyr + Schiit Bifrost
  2) Burson HA-160DS
  3) Audio-gd NFB-10SE
   
  So far, I'm headed towards the Schiit combo, since I love the Asgard with the Denons and the 'Sones and think it's a bang for the buck.
  It also gives me the possibility of tube rolling, which is great in case I eventually decide to change the sound signature.
   
  What do you think provides the best sound quality, disregarding price?
  Would I be doing a definately good move by choosing the Schiit combo? I mean, I'm worried about getting it and 6 months later having upgraditis again and ending up spending even more.
   
  Lastly, price is not my main concern on the moment. So as far it's reasonable, I'm ok in spending more (I'm not sure how much, shoot me some ideas haha) IF it means getting the best SQ out of these phones.
  BUT, if you tell me that you're quite sure that going with the NFB is pretty much the same than these other three, or even some more expensive rigs, I'd definately be happier in saving some.
   
  Thanks for your time, and sorry the extremely long post!

 Cheers from Brazil,
  Stefano


----------



## drez

NMB-10 sounds incredible, but is a little neutral/revealing If you are going for some of the brighter HifiMans.  It will not hide flaws in a headphone or recording.  WIth the LCD-2 I am continually impressed with how well the NFB-10 SE performs.  Even with the HE-6 is ti bloody close the my Ref 7.1 and EF-6 combination.  Very detailed and transparent with an excellent soundstage.
   
  Burson is quite good, bit warm in the bass but good overall however it lacks the power to drive a few orthos.
   
  The Schiit gear is a safer bet for HE-6/HE-4 though, and they are also bringing out some new balanced gear shortly


----------



## szanella

Quote: 





drez said:


> NMB-10 sounds incredible, but is a little neutral/revealing If you are going for some of the brighter HifiMans.  It will not hide flaws in a headphone or recording.  WIth the LCD-2 I am continually impressed with how well the NFB-10 SE performs.  Even with the HE-6 is ti bloody close the my Ref 7.1 and EF-6 combination.  Very detailed and transparent with an excellent soundstage.
> 
> Burson is quite good, bit warm in the bass but good overall however it lacks the power to drive a few orthos.
> 
> The Schiit gear is a safer bet for HE-6/HE-4 though, and they are also bringing out some new balanced gear shortly


 

 Hey Drez!

 Thanks for the answer!

 So, in a nutshell, for both the HE-500 or the LCD-2, you'd go with the NFB (as both DAC and amp)?
  Comparing to your (awesome) Ref 7.1 and EF-6 combo, how much better would say it is than the NFB when listening to the HE-500?
   
  Cheers!
 Stefano


----------



## szanella

Adding some flavor to the discussion:
   
  What about the NFB-6 (amp) + NFB-17 (DAC) combo vs Schiit Lyr + Bifrost vs. NFB-10SE?


----------



## drez

I think a couple of people have foudn the mids with HE-500 a bit dry/artificial with the NFB-10 SE, and others have found they prefer to use the O2 amplifier, so unfortunately it seems the perceived brightness can be a problem for quite a few people.  A couple of poeple that compared NFB-10 to Lyr/Bifrost with HE-500 preferred the Lyr/Bifrost combinatoin, so MIO the NFB-10 SE is quite a divisive piece of gear as half the people love it, and half find the upper mids glarey, so its a bit of a risk whether or not whit will bother you.  I found it subjectively removed some of the "veil."  If you have tried slightly bright gear before and not minded the sound I guess it might be OK but if you are completely avers to brightness then it might be better to stay away and go for the Schiit gear, which errs on the smooth side of neutral and allows for tube rolling.
   
  As you can see I am having a hard time not selling the NFB-10 short while warning about the potential brightness problems
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  Schiit gear should be a safer bet.


----------



## darren700

Quote: 





drez said:


> I think a couple of people have foudn the mids with HE-500 a bit dry/artificial with the NFB-10 SE, and others have found they prefer to use the O2 amplifier, so unfortunately it seems the perceived brightness can be a problem for quite a few people.  A couple of poeple that compared NFB-10 to Lyr/Bifrost with HE-500 preferred the Lyr/Bifrost combinatoin, so MIO the NFB-10 SE is quite a divisive piece of gear as half the people love it, and half find the upper mids glarey, so its a bit of a risk whether or not whit will bother you.  I found it subjectively removed some of the "veil."  If you have tried slightly bright gear before and not minded the sound I guess it might be OK but if you are completely avers to brightness then it might be better to stay away and go for the Schiit gear, which errs on the smooth side of neutral and allows for tube rolling.
> 
> As you can see I am having a hard time not selling the NFB-10 short while warning about the potential brightness problems
> 
> ...


 

 This, completly how i feel about the NFB-10SE.
   
  I sold my NFB-10SE because i just plain did not like the sound of the amp; way too bright for me, made rock and metal un-listenable with the LCD2v2 IMO, however the DAC section was great.
   
  The Objective 2 Sounds way better in my opinion. I will defiantly be getting the Objective Desktop Amp when it is released.
   
  I have also preordered a Audiolab MDAC, which supposedly has a headphone out the competes with the Betta22 (see here).
  I am interested to see how the amp in the MDAC compares with the O2.
   
  I would consider the Audio-GD NFB-6 as well but im too afraid it will sound alot like the NFB-10SE and i wont like it, as King-wa describes it as like the NFB-10SE with analog inputs. However it does sport a pretty beefy power supply and is Class A which the NFB-10SE is not.


----------



## drez

AGD have a bunch of new products coming out, including a new budget balanced amplifier only based on Master 6.  Power output is down, and it looks like class-A biasing is used.  Hopefully it won't be so bright
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
   
  MDAC looks promising, especially if it can compete with B-22!


----------



## dagothur

Quote: 





darren700 said:


> This, completly how i feel about the NFB-10SE.
> 
> I sold my NFB-10SE because i just plain did not like the sound of the amp; way too bright for me, made rock and metal un-listenable with the LCD2v2 IMO, however the DAC section was great.


 
  One of the pitfalls and strengths of the NFB is that it's very revealing.  If your recording is poor, the NFB will punish your ears for it.  Generally, rock and metal don't have the best recording/mastering quality and the unit let's you know that very plainly.  However, if you can manage to get 320 or FLAC I've found the NFB adds some brilliant texturing and instrument separation to metal.


----------



## darren700

Quote: 





dagothur said:


> One of the pitfalls and strengths of the NFB is that it's very revealing.  If your recording is poor, the NFB will punish your ears for it.  Generally, rock and metal don't have the best recording/mastering quality and the unit let's you know that very plainly.  However, if you can manage to get 320 or FLAC I've found the NFB adds some brilliant texturing and instrument separation to metal.


 
   
  I was using all FLAC music. no low quality MP3's here.
  I do agree about the NFB-10SE being very revealing, but that doesnt explain why the O2 sounds so much better to me (YMMV) as its suppose to be a very neutral and transparent amp.


----------



## dagothur

Quote: 





darren700 said:


> I was using all FLAC music. no low quality MP3's here.
> I do agree about the NFB-10SE being very revealing, but that doesnt explain why the O2 sounds so much better to me (YMMV) as its suppose to be a very neutral and transparent amp.


 
  Even if you have Death Magnetic in FLAC, the mastering quality was poor.  I've not heard the O2 - although I should in the next few days - so  I can't say which is superior.  But I would say the NFB might not be your taste because it's not _really_ neutral.  It's slightly bright, and sometimes even sibilant when the recording itself is already edgy or bright.  Generally I've found that if the recording is generally meant for a Grado-type signature, the NFB will make it seem harsher than a more laid-back unit might.  The only problem I've had with this quality was my 192 kbps recording of Resolution by Lamb of God.  I find the transparency and instrument separation from the NFB vastly improves metal recordings, especially with death and thrash metal.  I guess I will have a better perspective when I hear the O2.


----------



## szanella

Quote: 





drez said:


> I think a couple of people have foudn the mids with HE-500 a bit dry/artificial with the NFB-10 SE, and others have found they prefer to use the O2 amplifier, so unfortunately it seems the perceived brightness can be a problem for quite a few people.  A couple of poeple that compared NFB-10 to Lyr/Bifrost with HE-500 preferred the Lyr/Bifrost combinatoin, so MIO the NFB-10 SE is quite a divisive piece of gear as half the people love it, and half find the upper mids glarey, so its a bit of a risk whether or not whit will bother you.  I found it subjectively removed some of the "veil."  If you have tried slightly bright gear before and not minded the sound I guess it might be OK but if you are completely avers to brightness then it might be better to stay away and go for the Schiit gear, which errs on the smooth side of neutral and allows for tube rolling.
> 
> As you can see I am having a hard time not selling the NFB-10 short while warning about the potential brightness problems
> 
> ...


 


   
  Hey Drez, thanks a lot!
   
  I'm going through a extensive learning period, in which I basically want to try every kind of sound there is.
  Seems like a bright source that could be very revealing would be something nice for a change!
   
  Although, I do enjoy darker sounds, so I'm still unsure about which way to go.
  My HE-500s are coming before the LCD-2s... I think I should get the LCD in a month
  I think I'll go with the NFB just to try it out, and eventually pass it over if it doesn't fit my taste.
  (living in Brazil, despite insane taxes, has some advantages regarding our hobby: you never lose money reselling - things are muuuch more expensive here, so even though I don't profit, I don't lose money either ).
   
  thanks again for helping out!
   
  and thanks DARREN and DAGOTHUR for adding some info!
   
  Cheers,
  Stefano


----------



## drez

Another thing to consider is AudioGD are bringing out new seperate DAC and balanced amp combination in the NDB-17 and NFB-6 which should cost only a couple of hundred more.  AudioGD make excellent Wolfson DAC's, and if you don't like the amplifier you can sell it off and keep the DAC.  should be out in a couple of weeks, and they will come with new tenor asynchornous USB.  You can also get the NFB-10 with the new asynch USB installed also:
   
http://www.audio-gd.com/En%20audio-gd.htm


----------



## D2Cowones

Absolutely right, Death Magnetic has one of the poorest dynamic range measures in a recording 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  By the way, I shot the question regarding power output to Icon audio, maximum power of HP8 is 1 watt x channel.

  
  Quote:


dagothur said:


> Even if you have Death Magnetic in FLAC, the mastering quality was poor.


----------



## ninjikiran

MP3 or flac, a properly mastered song is still going to sound amazing in both formats.


----------



## dagothur

Quote: 





ninjikiran said:


> MP3 or flac, a properly mastered song is still going to sound amazing in both formats.


 

 Yeah, but you can totally hear the difference between 320 and 1000 kbps.  Totally.


----------



## ninjikiran

Sometimes I do but thats not an argument for the amp forum,  I just give more credence to a properly mastered song.  That can make poor equipment shine, and great equipment can make it shine brighter.
   
  A poorly mastered song seems to sound like mush no matter how good the equipment is.


----------



## dagothur

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *ninjikiran* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> A poorly mastered song seems to sound like mush no matter how good the equipment is.


 
  I was only poking fun, but that's definitely true.  It seems to me that the more resolving and high quality equipment gets, the more painful poorly mastered recordings become to the ears.
  
  Edit: I got a chance to hear the O2 with the NFB and LCD-2s today.  It's an extremely good amp and definitely worth the money.  It's a powerful little unit, especially for its size, but I still prefer my NFB.  Overall, the sound was a bit warmer and more dynamic than my NFB, with less focus on transparency and detail.  I also had the opportunity to demo the NFB with the Fostex t50RP Paradox mod, and it was a pleasing combo.  The NFB is a powerful, neutral amp, and that worked extremely well for the Paradox and its neutral signature.  It adds detail, transparency and excellent instrument separation.  I demoed the iBasso D6 connected to the O2, and it reminded me a lot of my Nuforce.  Details were pressed together a bit, and instrument separation suffered.  Overall, the NFB won out with the LCD-2s, but the O2 is still an excellent unit, and it slightly edged out the NFB when paired with the Paradox.


----------



## orri

Hi everyone,
   
  I am thinking of upgrading my current HR Micro Amp + D2000 rig and from what I have read I think the LCD-2's will suit my taste. I use a 160gb iPod as a source through a LOD but I will buy the Pure i-20 and a DAC as well as a to get the best out of my iPod. 
   
  My budget is sub 1000$ and from what I've read on this thread is that the Schiit Lyr + Bifrost combo would arguably be the best match for the LCD's. The only thing bothering me with the combo is that it is missing the crossfeed option my current Micro Amp has. Since I listen quite a lot to old 60's recordings I find the crossfeed almost a necessary feat.
   
  Could I solve this problem by using the Meier Stage Dac (which has crossfeed) and pair it with the Lyr or would I get better synergy by pairing it with a Meier amp? Or should I buy the Bifrost and pair it with a Meier Corda Classic/Concerto? Another option is to buy the HR Desktop Amp but I haven't read any comments on how it drives the LCD-2's...
   
   
  Any help would be well appreciated....
   
  Thanks,
  Orri


----------



## Pudu

Rather than building a desktop setup around your iPod you may wish to have a look at the DX100 from iBasso. It has a few rough edges at the moment, but it sounds simply stunning and has a very good synergy with the LCDs. 

On the other hand if you have other sources you eventually want to use, the DX doesn't act as a stand alone DAC for other sources. 

I was almost going to buy the Bifrost, but a few things made me hesitate. I don't like the reported click when the audio stream starts and stops (I don't know if that is common with most DACs). And having heard the DAC in this portable, I'm very interested in their upcoming desktop DAC which they will be building around the same chip.


----------



## idletime1213

Concerto + Bifrost is an excellent pairing for the LCD-2.


----------



## darren700

Quote: 





dagothur said:


> I was only poking fun, but that's definitely true.  It seems to me that the more resolving and high quality equipment gets, the more painful poorly mastered recordings become to the ears.
> 
> Edit: I got a chance to hear the O2 with the NFB and LCD-2s today.  It's an extremely good amp and definitely worth the money.  It's a powerful little unit, especially for its size, but I still prefer my NFB.  Overall, the sound was a bit warmer and more dynamic than my NFB, with less focus on transparency and detail.  I also had the opportunity to demo the NFB with the Fostex t50RP Paradox mod, and it was a pleasing combo.  The NFB is a powerful, neutral amp, and that worked extremely well for the Paradox and its neutral signature.  It adds detail, transparency and excellent instrument separation.  I demoed the iBasso D6 connected to the O2, and it reminded me a lot of my Nuforce.  Details were pressed together a bit, and instrument separation suffered.  Overall, the NFB won out with the LCD-2s, but the O2 is still an excellent unit, and it slightly edged out the NFB when paired with the Paradox.


 

 Interesting that you prefer the NFB over the O2, which is the exact opposite of my experience with the NFB.
   
  I am very happy with my O2 so far, but i have always wanted to try a nice Tube amp, so and i am considering picking up a Little Dot MKVI+ thats in the classifieds.
  It would be interesting to compare the O2 to the MKVI+ and the Audiolab MDAC's Headphone output (when i receive it in a month or so.)
   
  what do you guys think, is the Little Dot MKVI+ worth it to try with my LCD'2s? Many people claim great synergy and bass slam with this combo.


----------



## Argo Duck

FWIW you could consult my comparison review of Stagedac versus Bifrost (versus Eastern Electric DAC), where I used the Lyr and Concerto as amps (look in the threads in my profile - about page 3).  IIRC I have some information there about the Stagedac/Lyr, but not as much as first intended.
   
  Bifrost is pretty good. With the Concerto the combination is very clear, maybe a little dry. Would suit someone who likes detailed and analytical but not harsh/sibilant. For a little more weight, more harmonic presence in the mid to upper mids, and especially soundstage the Classic would be the better choice imo. Concerto has a distant balance and smaller sound-stage; Classic is notably "up-close" and the soundstage correspondingly larger. (I'm in the early weeks of comparing Concerto and Classic. These are the notable differences to date).
   
  Quote: 





orri said:


> <snip>
> 
> *Could I solve this problem by using the Meier Stage Dac (which has crossfeed) and pair it with the Lyr or would I get better synergy by pairing it with a Meier amp? Or should I buy the Bifrost and pair it with a Meier Corda Classic/Concerto? Another option is to buy the HR Desktop Amp but I haven't read any comments on how it drives the LCD-2's...*
> 
> ...


----------



## orri

Quote: 





pudu said:


> Rather than building a desktop setup around your iPod you may wish to have a look at the DX100 from iBasso. It has a few rough edges at the moment, but it sounds simply stunning and has a very good synergy with the LCDs.
> On the other hand if you have other sources you eventually want to use, the DX doesn't act as a stand alone DAC for other sources.
> I was almost going to buy the Bifrost, but a few things made me hesitate. I don't like the reported click when the audio stream starts and stops (I don't know if that is common with most DACs). And having heard the DAC in this portable, I'm very interested in their upcoming desktop DAC which they will be building around the same chip.


 

 That is an interesting one-in-all indeed. Too bad it is "only" 64gb since the large capacity of the iPod is one of the reasons I bought it (currently using about 130gb). When you say that it doesn't work as a stand alone dac for other sources do you mean I wouldn't be able to connect it to my computer and use it as a dac? 
   

  
   
  Quote: 





argo duck said:


> FWIW you could consult my comparison review of Stagedac versus Bifrost (versus Eastern Electric DAC), where I used the Lyr and Concerto as amps (look in the threads in my profile - about page 3).  IIRC I have some information there about the Stagedac/Lyr, but not as much as first intended.
> 
> Bifrost is pretty good. With the Concerto the combination is very clear, maybe a little dry. Would suit someone who likes detailed and analytical but not harsh/sibilant. For a little more weight, more harmonic presence in the mid to upper mids, and especially soundstage the Classic would be the better choice imo. Concerto has a distant balance and smaller sound-stage; Classic is notably "up-close" and the soundstage correspondingly larger. (I'm in the early weeks of comparing Concerto and Classic. These are the notable differences to date).


 

 Thank you AiDee. A very good review in fact on the dacs. After thinking this over I think I will go for the Bifrost + Concerto/Classic combo. The Bifrost seems to have better specs than the Stage Dac plus it is cheaper and upgradable. The Meier amps seem to work well with any headphones from what I've read whereas the Lyr seems to generate hiss on more sensitive hp's ( I guess it would on my d2000's) and therefore the Meier's would be more versatile.
   
  This way I should have a very decent dac, an amp that works very well with the LCD's as well as with other headphones _and _I would have the crossfeed option I find necessary.
   
  I hope and guess I won't be disappointed.
   
   


idletime1213 said:


> Concerto + Bifrost is an excellent pairing for the LCD-2.


 

  Good to hear. Looking forward to it 
   
   
  Thank you all for your quick replys. You have been very helpful!


----------



## Pudu

orri said:


> .... That is an interesting one-in-all indeed. Too bad it is "only" 64gb since the large capacity of the iPod is one of the reasons I bought it (currently using about 130gb). When you say that it doesn't work as a stand alone dac for other sources do you mean I wouldn't be able to connect it to my computer and use it as a dac?...




Correct, there is no input on the DX. However it does have both line out and optical out so you can use it to feed any amp or dac of your choosing.

It has 64GB on board but you can use microSD cards with it. Some people are using 64gb cards with it I believe, but I haven't tried one yet. 


Happy Easter / Passover


----------



## szanella

Quote: 





drez said:


> Another thing to consider is AudioGD are bringing out new seperate DAC and balanced amp combination in the NDB-17 and NFB-6 which should cost only a couple of hundred more.  AudioGD make excellent Wolfson DAC's, and if you don't like the amplifier you can sell it off and keep the DAC.  should be out in a couple of weeks, and they will come with new tenor asynchornous USB.  You can also get the NFB-10 with the new asynch USB installed also:
> 
> http://www.audio-gd.com/En%20audio-gd.htm


 


  Yeah, I just sent an email down to AudioGD asking for a quote (shipping to Brazil is not listed)!
  It seems that this combo could be a real good set for a nice price.
   
  It's about the same price as the Lyr+Bifrost combo, but has balanced outputs and is completely SS - should be interesting!


----------



## dagothur

Quote: 





szanella said:


> It's about the same price as the Lyr+Bifrost combo, but has balanced outputs and is completely SS - should be interesting!


 
  I have the original 10SE, so it doesn't have asynch USB, but I think it works very well with the LCD-2.


----------



## Gignac

FWIW (And that's not much, considering I'm such a newbie to this site...though not to auditory bliss), I just recently picked up a Musical Paradise MP-301 MK2 and it seems to be correcting every issue I've found with my LCD-2 Rev 1s.  When I first started using the Rev 1s I thought the imaging was great, except for the fact that it seemed to put vocals on most tracks a bit to the rear.  Everything has been pulled up in that range with this amp (thankfully.)
   
  I have to note that before this amp I was simply jabbing them into a DAC.  I know, it's sad, but true.
   
  Anyhow, if you're looking at an Schiit Valhalla, or Little Dot Mk III, maybe consider the MP-301.  I'm not just saying this because I'm a Canadian.  I assure you, I care deeply about your ears.  Give it a shot, or not, I'm happy with the setup, and don't believe the few people who have gone on about hum, mine was hum free with the stock power tubes, and hum free now with the EL34s I've replaced them with.  It's a pretty well-built little mutha.
   
  Best of luck to all you new LCD-2 owners.


----------



## F1REStarter

Has anyone had any experience with a Violectric V200 + Schiit Bifrost combo? I currently have the Bifrost and am expecting the V200 to come very soon and wanted to know anyone's thoughts or impressions, if any. I sold my Lyr to fund purchase of a V200.


----------



## grokit

Paging Warrior Ant...


----------



## zachchen1996

does anyone have any idea on how the new alo rx mk3 will sound with the lcd2?


----------



## minimus

I know that Srajan Ebaen over at 6moons.com is about to review the ALO Rx MKiii.  He swooned over the LCD-2s, so I imagine he will provide impressions of how the amp pairs with the LCD-2s.  His writing is usually really awful...be forewarned.
   
  That said, why spend that much money on a portable amp to drive the LCD-2s.  I would look for a decent tube amp or at least a stationary solid state amp instead, as I have yet to hear a portable amp that approaches the sound quality of a stationary amp.  If you are going to use the amp for portable headphone listening, then by all means spend your money on a portable.  But if it is going to be used as a stationary amp, why pay Ken Ball a fat premium because he fit a printed circuit board in a tiny box?  Get something from Decware or Woo for a little more, and you will do the LCD-2 justice.  If your budget is tight, my guess is that a Blue Circle Hat Peed Thingee with the external power supply for $750 would crush the new ALO amp. Of course, that would involve picking an amp that does not have "flavor of the month" status.


----------



## Anthony1

Quote: 





zachchen1996 said:


> does anyone have any idea on how the new alo rx mk3 will sound with the lcd2?


 
  there is a post on the DX100 thread


----------



## eltocliousus

Audeze are sending me an LCD-2 to review, however I fear my personal setup (Little dot MK II + Schiit Lyr) will be unable to fully drive the LCD-2s, I think I should be fine, however I'm able to borrow a few amplifiers to assist in the review.
  I'll be using the LCD-2 on as much setups as I can, however, out of the EF-5, WA6 and Schiit Lyr, which would you recommend?
   
  Cheers.


----------



## capone

Quote: 





eltocliousus said:


> Audeze are sending me an LCD-2 to review, however I fear my personal setup (Little dot MK II + Schiit Lyr) will be unable to fully drive the LCD-2s, I think I should be fine, however I'm able to borrow a few amplifiers to assist in the review.
> I'll be using the LCD-2 on as much setups as I can, however, out of the EF-5, WA6 and Schiit Lyr, which would you recommend?
> 
> Cheers.


 
   
  I’d at least have an SS in the mix.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





eltocliousus said:


> Audeze are sending me an LCD-2 to review, however I fear my personal setup (Little dot MK II + Schiit Lyr) will be unable to fully drive the LCD-2s, I think I should be fine, however I'm able to borrow a few amplifiers to assist in the review.
> I'll be using the LCD-2 on as much setups as I can, however, out of the EF-5, WA6 and Schiit Lyr, which would you recommend?
> 
> Cheers.


 
  You're the reviewer, so listen to all three and compare and contrast for us


----------



## Matt head 777

my LCD-2 sounds great with o2 amp.


----------



## eltocliousus

Quote: 





grokit said:


> You're the reviewer, so listen to all three and compare and contrast for us


 
   
  I'll definitely be trying them all! As Capone pointed out, I might not be able to get my hands on an SS amplifier in time for the review, but I may be able to scrape something up at the last second, I've always preferred tube amplifiers however, the sonic differences I find to be negligible when compared to SS but it's the experience I enjoy.
   
  I've also just had a thought, I've not been sent products from overseas before, will I have to pay custom VAT if they're a review sample? I hope not, having to fork out $250 just to review them.


----------



## nigeljames

Quote: 





eltocliousus said:


> I'll definitely be trying them all! As Capone pointed out, I might not be able to get my hands on an SS amplifier in time for the review, but I may be able to scrape something up at the last second, I've always preferred tube amplifiers however, the sonic differences I find to be negligible when compared to SS but it's the experience I enjoy.
> 
> I've also just had a thought, I've not been sent products from overseas before, will I have to pay custom VAT if they're a review sample? I hope not, having to fork out $250 just to review them.


 
   
  Pity you don't live closer, I may have been able to lend you my Audio-gd Master-6.
  Stunning match with the LCD's


----------



## drez

Quote: 





minimus said:


> I know that Srajan Ebaen over at 6moons.com is about to review the ALO Rx MKiii.  He swooned over the LCD-2s, so I imagine he will provide impressions of how the amp pairs with the LCD-2s.  His writing is usually really awful...be forewarned.


 
   
  "Impenetrable" is how I would describe his writing 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  In his defense though this seems to be the popular literary style for audiophile magazine reviews.
   
  I haven't heard an LCD-2 yet with my Master 6, but my guess is it should sound excellent given how well it powers my HE-6.


----------



## nigeljames

Quote: 





drez said:


> "Impenetrable" is how I would describe his writing
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Yes all trace of darkness has disappeared with my LCD's but I do have theTWAG-2 silver cable which also has a slight effect on that.
   
  NFB-7 + Master-6 + Lcd2.2 gives a extremely dynamic,powerful and robust sound.


----------



## eltocliousus

Quote: 





nigeljames said:


> Pity you don't live closer, I may have been able to lend you my Audio-gd Master-6.
> Stunning match with the LCD's


 

 That is a shame, but thankyou regardless.


----------



## zachchen1996

Quote: 





minimus said:


> I know that Srajan Ebaen over at 6moons.com is about to review the ALO Rx MKiii.  He swooned over the LCD-2s, so I imagine he will provide impressions of how the amp pairs with the LCD-2s.  His writing is usually really awful...be forewarned.
> 
> That said, why spend that much money on a portable amp to drive the LCD-2s.  I would look for a decent tube amp or at least a stationary solid state amp instead, as I have yet to hear a portable amp that approaches the sound quality of a stationary amp.  If you are going to use the amp for portable headphone listening, then by all means spend your money on a portable.  But if it is going to be used as a stationary amp, why pay Ken Ball a fat premium because he fit a printed circuit board in a tiny box?  Get something from Decware or Woo for a little more, and you will do the LCD-2 justice.  If your budget is tight, my guess is that a Blue Circle Hat Peed Thingee with the external power supply for $750 would crush the new ALO amp. Of course, that would involve picking an amp that does not have "flavor of the month" status.


 
  don't you think using the lcd2 balanced with the rx mk3 could at least match the abilities of *some lower end *desktop amps?


----------



## orrb_05

Quote: 





nigeljames said:


> Pity you don't live closer, I may have been able to lend you my Audio-gd Master-6.
> Stunning match with the LCD's


 
  How's the Master-6 compare with the Phoenix?


----------



## preproman

So does the majority here feel that the LCDs sound better with a Tube amp opposed to a SS amp?


----------



## nigeljames

Quote: 





orrb_05 said:


> How's the Master-6 compare with the Phoenix?


 
   
  Have not heard the Phoenix but according to other people that have and Kingwa the Master 5/6/8 has greater detail and dynamics and better frequency extension on both ends.
   
  Thats just with normal phones, the differences would be even greater with harder to drive headphones with the Master 6/8


----------



## grokit

preproman said:


> So does the majority here feel that the LCDs sound better with a Tube amp opposed to a SS amp?




Perhaps a good idea for a poll/thread?

Tubes here btw.


----------



## keph

loving my WA6SE with the LCD-2...
   
  Oh Tubes here too...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Somehow SS amp feels liveless imo...


----------



## sphinxvc

I happen to use tubes, but I've heard them sound excellent out of both.  And hybrids too.


----------



## nigeljames

The only really bad match IMO would be to pair the LCD's with a really 'tubey' sounding amp.
   
  Mine sound very good out of the Woo6se and formally the Audio-gd Roc but sound stunning out of the Audio-gd Master-6


----------



## grokit

nigeljames said:


> The only really bad match IMO would be to pair the LCD's with a really 'tubey' sounding amp.




I don't know about that. They sound best to me out of the highly euphonic WA22, with the right tubes of course.


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





grokit said:


> I don't know about that. They sound best to me out of the highly euphonic WA22, with the right tubes of course.


 

 I absolutely concur, both the LCD-2 and LCD-3 sounded fantastic on the WA22 (as you mentioned Vine...."with the right tubes of course").


----------



## danik97

Hello, guys. I think to buy a tube amp for to make a sound of LCD-2 rev.2 some darker. What do you think, is it really? 
  Also I think about SS amp, maybe Violectric V100/V200. But there is some cheaper analog is Lake People G109-P.
http://www.da-x.de/de/lake-people-phone-amp-g109-p.html
http://www.da-x.de/de/violectric-hpa-v200.html
   
http://www.lake-people.de/index.php?id=2&lang=eng&typ=3&nr=g109p
  My budget is $800.


----------



## Argo Duck

"Dark" is not quite the right word, it's more about the "sound" Audez'e brings and whether you like it.
   
  Your Bifrost (don't know about Asgard - never heard it) will already bring out top-end detail which the speed of the rev 2 is capable of.
   
  Though I haven't heard it, the V200 has a great reputation - slightly warm side of neutral with good bass. Certainly this description fits the V100 which I do own.
   
  Meier's Classic amp is an excellent SS option too - neutral with great soundstage and ample power. It's my "second best" with LCD2.
   
  My best LCD2 amp is my Decware Taboo. It happens to be tube, but that's not what's important.


----------



## danik97

AiDee, thank you for reply! 
  Decware Taboo looks gret, but some out of my budget. I listen about Meier Clasic amp. 
  How do you think, it would well-taken to overpay for V200, instead of V100? Thre are a real advantages?


----------



## Argo Duck

Hi Danik. I never heard V200. Someone I asked about it had owned and reviewed both. He felt the difference was small; only slightly favoring the V200.
   
  But others I respect found the difference bigger.
   
  Subtle differences can be important to the listener. For example, Jan Meier says his Classic is only a subtle improvement over the previous Concerto. Yet, for me the difference is large and important.
   
  It depends on the listener.
   
   
  Some people like to compare on power. All these amps (and many other good LCD2 amps) have more than enough power (especially current) for the LCD2 r2. Taboo, Classic and V100 are all around 2W into 60 ohms (which is much, much more than needed), and V200 is about 2.5W (which is only a _very small_ 'gain' in terms of perceived loudness).
   
  Maybe you should wait for reviews of Schiit's new Mjolnir amp, due for release this month. It has an unusual design and is likely to be an interesting amplifier.
   
  ps: I only log in occasionally. I won't see any more questions from you for a few days, maybe a week.


----------



## Matt head 777

interesting if I read correctly you want the LCD-2 even darker? Do you have sensitivity to high frequencies?

  don't be afraid of using eq, you maybe chasing the unlikely solution while spending big dosh on an amp. Your basically looking for an amp with attenuated high frequencies - which is effectively eq anyway. Anyway you might be looking for a tube amp, not solid state.


----------



## danik97

Hello, AiDee.
  Mjolnir would be a baclanced amp, it's not my plan to convert all sytem to a balanced type. So, it is 80% that I will buy V200. i'm not to plan change an amp at least for a two years. So, it would be nously to buy an amp better.


----------



## danik97

Quote: 





matt head 777 said:


> interesting if I read correctly you want the LCD-2 even darker? Do you have sensitivity to high frequencies?
> 
> don't be afraid of using eq, you maybe chasing the unlikely solution while spending big dosh on an amp. Your basically looking for an amp with attenuated high frequencies - which is effectively eq anyway. Anyway you might be looking for a tube amp, not solid state.


 
  I was want to have a possibility for to сhange a signature of sound to a darker. Not for always. Yes, I have a sensitivity for a high frequencies, because of that LCD-2 is better for my ears what was eared early (but not without Audeze's lacks, of course). Now I understand that tube amp is not best choice for a low impedance headphones. There is a few models amps that it could be used, but no much a positive feedbacks of them. So, i think that would be right to buy a nice transistor amp, which can drive a low-impedance headphones, as a high-impedance.
  I think that Violectric V200 would right choice. No much feedbcks about Meier Audio Classic amp.


----------



## danik97

Ok, now I think V200 not what I need. I think it would be too dark sound with LCD-2, even V200 have a "warm" signature. V100 can be better, he have a less same signature.
  How are detals and soundtage if to compare V100 and Meier Classic?


----------



## Kremer930

danik97 said:


> Hello, AiDee.
> Mjolnir would be a baclanced amp, it's not my plan to convert all sytem to a balanced type. So, it is 80% that I will buy V200. i'm not to plan change an amp at least for a two years. So, it would be nously to buy an amp better.




Just in case someone misinterprets the system changes needed to run the Moljnir, you only need to have a balanced headphone cable to be able to run the Moljnir. It doesn't require balanced input or a change to your system. Only to wiring of your cans.


----------



## danik97

What would be better Meier Audio Classic or SPL Auditor?
   
  Ok, see that Auditor is not right choice.
   
  But is Meier Classic in same class like Auditor?


----------



## Gwarmi

Quote: 





grokit said:


> It would be the most expensive component I own:
> 
> 
> 
> *The World's Best Power Cable Upgrade!*


 
   
   
   Winner Grokit 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I've got one of these on order along with a C5 to IEC converter for the Rega - should be a nice touch, the Nordost Heimdall has closed down the soundstage a little
   but microdetail is up.


----------



## jc9394

Quote: 





preproman said:


> So does the majority here feel that the LCDs sound better with a Tube amp opposed to a SS amp?


 
   
  I much prefer the beta22 with LCD-2 over WA22.


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





jc9394 said:


> I much prefer the beta22 with LCD-2 over WA22.


 
  That's interesting jc9394,
   
  I have a B22 and I was interested in getting a WA22 because of the LCDx.  What "CANS" do you prefer with the WA22?


----------



## jc9394

HD800 and JH13 on WA22.


----------



## underhysteria

Guys,
   
   
  I have narrowed my audeze LCD-2 setup to either the Burson 160-DS or Schitt Bifrost + Lyr combo. May i know which setup gives the best synergy with the LCD-2?


----------



## dagothur

Quote: 





underhysteria said:


> Guys,
> 
> 
> I have narrowed my audeze LCD-2 setup to either the Burson 160-DS or Schitt Bifrost + Lyr combo. May i know which setup gives the best synergy with the LCD-2?


 
  I've not tried the Burson, but the Bifrost/Lyr combo has amazing synergy with the LCD-2s and is about $100 cheaper with the USB upgrade to the Bifrost.  You'll want to get better tubes with the Lyr, as the stock tubes are a little thin and grainy.


----------



## Sweden

Quote: 





underhysteria said:


> Guys,
> 
> 
> I have narrowed my audeze LCD-2 setup to either the Burson 160-DS or Schitt Bifrost + Lyr combo. May i know which setup gives the best synergy with the LCD-2?


 
  Burson is a seriously overrated amp IMO.


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





sweden said:


> Burson is a seriously overrated amp IMO.


 
  Overrated compared to what?  I'm just asking.


----------



## jc9394

Quote: 





sweden said:


> Burson is a seriously overrated amp IMO.


 
   
  Quote: 





preproman said:


> Overrated compared to what?  I'm just asking.


 
   
  I don't think it is over rated but certainly there are better options out there.


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





jc9394 said:


> I don't think it is over rated but certainly there are better options out there.


 
  Yes there are, I agree.  However, lets keep it in a "same price range compressions though"  Remember the 160D is a three in one combo so features does make a difference in some cases.


----------



## jc9394

Quote: 





preproman said:


> Yes there are, I agree.  However, lets keep it in a "same price range compressions though"  Remember the 160D is a three in one combo so features does make a difference in some cases.


 
   
  For $1300 on amp and dac combo, which one you think it is better except the AudioGD.


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





jc9394 said:


> For $1300 on amp and dac combo, which one you think it is better except the AudioGD.


 
  Amp, DAC, and Pre Amp combo.  Three in one.  Does Audio-gd even offer something like that?  Also this kit from Burson can be had for $1000, that's what I got mine for.


----------



## dagothur

Quote: 





preproman said:


> Amp, DAC, and Pre Amp combo.  Three in one.  Does Audio-gd even offer something like that?  Also this kit from Burson can be had for $1000, that's what I got mine for.


 
  The NFB-10SE, NFB-20 and Reference 10 all offer those capabilities at $500, $1400 and $1800, respectively.


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





dagothur said:


> The NFB-10SE, NFB-20 and Reference 10 all offer those capabilities at $500, $1400 and $1800, respectively.


 
  OK, cool - good to know.  Now how does these (exclude the $1800 one) compare to the Burson 160D?


----------



## steve2151

Used to own the HA-160D, sold it when my NFB-10SE came in. I prefer the more of a ruler flat sound on Audio GD equipment vs the Burson's warmth. Plus the Burson doesn't quite drive the HE-6 to it's full potential (outputs about 1 watt into 50 ohms vs 6 watts on the NFB-10). However, the Burson can be used as a standalone amp while the NFB-10SE cannot.
   
  The NFB-20 ($1480) and Reference 10 ($1850) can both be used as standalone amps and have a lot more power circuitry (3 r-core transformers vs 1) and better cases (weighs approximately 3x as much as the NFB-10SE). I think, but am not sure that they're also pure class A amps instead of A/B and can output 7 watts into 50 ohms. 
   
  The NFB-10SE is about $650 with the remote, TE8022 upgrade, and shipping to US. Still a great deal at this price.


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





steve2151 said:


> Used to own the HA-160D, sold it when my NFB-10SE came in. I prefer the more of a ruler flat sound on Audio GD equipment vs the Burson's warmth. Plus the Burson doesn't quite drive the HE-6 to it's full potential (outputs about 1 watt into 50 ohms vs 6 watts on the NFB-10). However, the Burson can be used as a standalone amp while the NFB-10SE cannot.
> 
> The NFB-20 ($1480) and Reference 10 ($1850) can both be used as standalone amps and have a lot more power circuitry (3 r-core transformers vs 1) and better cases (weighs approximately 3x as much as the NFB-10SE). I think, but am not sure that they're also pure class A amps instead of A/B and can output 7 watts into 50 ohms.
> 
> The NFB-10SE is about $650 with the remote, TE8022 upgrade, and shipping to US. Still a great deal at this price.


 
  One thing for sure - that NFB-10SE is one ugly kit.  On the real side.  I have not heard any of the Audio-gd stuff.  As you have heard both, so I guess you should know best.  I just want to make one point.  Driving the HE-6 is not the be all end all. These day it seems like if the amp can't drive the HE-6 then it must not be good.  I'm not saying you siad that Steve.  I'm just saying.  Not being able to drive the HE-6 seems to come up more than not. 
   
  I have a B22 and I know it can drive the HE-6 - but who cares...But the Burson drives every other headphone pretty good.


----------



## jc9394

Quote: 





preproman said:


> One thing for sure - that NFB-10SE is one ugly kit.  On the real side.  I have not heard any of the Audio-gd stuff.  As you have heard both, so I guess you should know best.  I just want to make one point.  Driving the HE-6 is not the be all end all. *These day it seems like if the amp can't drive the HE-6 then it must not be good.  I'm not saying you siad that Steve.  I'm just saying.  Not being able to drive the HE-6 seems to come up more than not. *
> 
> I have a B22 and I know it can drive the HE-6 - but who cares...But the Burson drives every other headphone pretty good.


 
   
  More power does not mean it is better.  When my beta22 is build I asked the builder for a 2x gain instead of 8 that can drive the HE-6.  It drive every other headphones that I have perfectly fine and I'm not interest in getting HE-6 anytime soon.


----------



## formula1

Quote: 





steve2151 said:


> Used to own the HA-160D, sold it when my NFB-10SE came in. I prefer the more of a ruler flat sound on Audio GD equipment vs the Burson's warmth. Plus the Burson doesn't quite drive the HE-6 to it's full potential (outputs about 1 watt into 50 ohms vs 6 watts on the NFB-10). However, the Burson can be used as a standalone amp while the NFB-10SE cannot.
> 
> The NFB-20 ($1480) and Reference 10 ($1850) can both be used as standalone amps and have a lot more power circuitry (3 r-core transformers vs 1) and better cases (weighs approximately 3x as much as the NFB-10SE). I think, but am not sure that they're also pure class A amps instead of A/B and can output 7 watts into 50 ohms.
> 
> The NFB-10SE is about $650 with the remote, TE8022 upgrade, and shipping to US. Still a great deal at this price.


 
   
  Anyways Burson is releasing another headamp with more power, it should be good with the HE-6's. Lets see.


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





jc9394 said:


> More power does not mean it is better.  When my beta22 is build I asked the builder for a 2x gain instead of 8 that can drive the HE-6.  It drive every other headphones that I have perfectly fine and I'm not interest in getting HE-6 anytime soon.


 
   
  I feel the same way jc,  I would rather have the HE-500 so I can play them on all my other amps as well.  I'm sure the HE-6 is a very fine headphone - maybe the best some say.  However, that is just one headphone out of many.  Between my B22, GS-1 and Burson I should be able to play all my headphones on each amp.  The HE-6 is just to much troble.  Folks are now out to find the one amp that can drive them well.  I'll go up to the HE5-LE  That should be good enough.


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





formula1 said:


> Anyways Burson is releasing another headamp with more power, it should be good with the HE-6's. Lets see.


 
   
   
  Is this the main requirement now a days?


----------



## formula1

Quote: 





preproman said:


> Is this the main requirement now a days?


 
   
  I meant, if somebody is looking or buying based on power.


----------



## dagothur

The HE-6 is notorious for its difficulty to drive.  I've seen some people (Skylab, I think) recommend a speaker amp with them.  Although it's not necessary, to say that your amp can drive the HE-6s successfully is a nice benchmark for power capabilities.


----------



## steve2151

I have next to no desk space in my apartment, so a smaller 1 or 2 box setup that drives everything would be ideal. As of now, the HE-6 is my go to for mainstream recordings, so the NFB-10 ended up replacing the Burson in my setup. I wanted the NFB-20 or Reference 10, but their footprint just wouldn't fit. Someone jokingly suggested that I stand the 30 pound amp on it's side, but we all know how that would turn out. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  With the HE-400, Hifiman seems to have the ortho manufacturing process down, so we'll hopefully be seeing an HE-600 with a lower power requirement and a reduced price soon. 
   
  In the meantime, I've been hearing good things about the Schiit Mjolnir and Gugnir combo. The demo units that were shown in LA seem to have paired well with the HD 800 and LCD-2. With more power than the Lyr, it should also do a good job with the HE-6 as well.


----------



## formula1

@steve, do you know about the trends TA-10.2 SE? people seem to like it how it sounds with the HE-6. (sorry if im going off topic with this one)


----------



## steve2151

Haven't heard it personally, but people are saying good things about it over in the HE-6 thread. That and the Emotiva A100 seem to be two of the cheapest methods to get very good performance out of an HE-6 using a speaker tap to 4 pin xlr adapter. That setup is probably poorly suited for anything else though.


----------



## grokit

http://www.head-fi.org/t/529873/amps-that-can-drive-the-hifiman-he-6-planar-headphones


----------



## Willarman

Anyone here had any experience with the Talisman T-33H and the LCD-2s? Some people say they match very very well, but am yet to read a review on the amp itself unfortunately, and am unable to audition.


----------



## palchiu

I'm satisfied GPinto's GP-H2A-P with LCD2/Q cable.
   
  It's soundstage is wide, really help the LCD2's soundstage.
   
  The stock tubes are sucks, I've replaced and mixed with JJ's ECC802S and Gold-Lion ECC82.(I don't want spend too much on NOS tubes)
   
  It's running Class-A, really excellant! even it's cheaper version.
   
  It's sound a-little warm and clear, without loss any detail. Extends is very nice, beautiful.
   
  I have pluged with LCD2 and HE400, background deadly quiet.
   
  I got mine in red, lovely! No plan to replaceing this little amp.


----------



## sluker

I guess it's overdue that I add the LaFigaro 339 to the list. With stock tubes it lacks the oomph to give the LCD-2 their due, but if you can track down some TS5998's or Sylvania 7236's and add some RCA 5693's (red hots) you wont be disappointed.


----------



## sphinxvc

I recommend...
   




   
  =]


----------



## BournePerfect

I want whatever amp the guy  with the HD800s in the background is using-cuz he's actually tapping his foot to the music! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  -Daniel


----------



## sphinxvc

Quote: 





bourneperfect said:


> I want whatever amp the guy  with the HD800s in the background is using-cuz he's actually tapping his foot to the music!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Mine actually, 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 -- same one the guy's talking about in the video.


----------



## brasewel

Looks like Howard was pretty pleased he was on camera


----------



## SBoy

Im torn between buying wa6se or decware taboo. Has anybody heard both and would kindly give me some feedbacks?


----------



## headfilover

Hi folks,
   
  Can you please let me know which amp/dac combo (integrated would be the best, I like simplicity) that I can get for my LCD2.2 without putting a deep hole into my pocket?
   
  Thanks for reading.


----------



## disastermouse

Actual music is for the insufficiently equipped.  How can he properly hear the headphones with that foot tapping?  It's unscientific!


----------



## Francoy

Quote: 





headfilover said:


> Hi folks,
> 
> Can you please let me know which amp/dac combo (integrated would be the best, I like simplicity) that I can get for my LCD2.2 without putting a deep hole into my pocket?
> 
> Thanks for reading.


 
   
  Some people like the Icon HDP ($450) and the CEntrance DACmini ($800) with LCD-2s. I haven’t heard them personally, so it’s just to make you aware of those products (and maybe get people with first hand experience to comment on them).


----------



## dagothur

The Icon HDP is an alright match for the LCD-2, and it keeps the dark flavor sometimes attributed to the cans, but you would do better with something that has more power and a neutral signature, e.g. the NFB-10SE.  I enjoyed the HDP a lot more for my Denon D7000s than my LCD-2s.


----------



## headfilover

I was thinking of the O2 amp & Odac combo.
  What do you think?


----------



## sluker

Quote: 





headfilover said:


> I was thinking of the O2 amp & Odac combo.
> What do you think?


 
  While this is not my go to set up for the LCD-2 (I prefer tubes or the power of the Pioneer SX1250), the ODAC+O2amp is a tough combo to beat on a budget, and if you get individual units it can be a good transportable rig (I can fit it and the LCD-2's in the LCD travel case) if you have a laptop as a source.


----------



## sphinxvc

Quote: 





headfilover said:


> I was thinking of the O2 amp & Odac combo.
> What do you think?


 
   
  Sounds fantastic with mine.  The big rig does offer a little more, but if I had to, I could certainly live with the O2, ODAC, and LCD-2.


----------



## longbowbbs

sphinxvc said:


> Sounds fantastic with mine.  The big rig does offer a little more, but if I had to, I could certainly live with the O2, ODAC, and LCD-2.




Could I get some background on the ODAC and O2? I am unfamiliar with them.

Thanks!


----------



## sphinxvc

Quote: 





longbowbbs said:


> Could I get some background on the ODAC and O2? I am unfamiliar with them.
> Thanks!


 
   
  They're a DAC & amp designed with measurements in mind.  I can't link you, but if you google it you should be able to find them.


----------



## longbowbbs

Quote: 





sphinxvc said:


> They're a DAC & amp designed with measurements in mind.  I can't link you, but if you google it you should be able to find them.


 
  Looks good. Backordered I see. The good ones always seem to be!


----------



## haquocdung

Quote: 





longbowbbs said:


> Could I get some background on the ODAC and O2? I am unfamiliar with them.
> Thanks!


 
  Here they are: http://www.jdslabs.com/


----------



## longbowbbs

Quote: 





haquocdung said:


> Here they are: http://www.jdslabs.com/


 
  Thanks for the link!!


----------



## Theoman

[size=medium]I’m considering buying a pair of Audeze LCD-2’s. I use an older Mcintosh intergraded amp as a headphone amp.  I also listen to vinyl. [/size]
  [size=medium]Does anyone have experience with this set up using  the LCD-2’s?[/size]
  [size=medium]Most reviews use a separate headphone amp with digital music.   I'm using Senn HD650's now[/size]


----------



## Riggaberto

I've heard some mention of the LYR not being as punchy as some other amps on the LCDs. Does anyone else have experience with that and could compare that aspect to some other amps?
   
  I'm obviously underpowering them right now with an Asus Xonar, but I do find that the impact and roundness of bass to be lacking with this setup. I want to be sure the amp I choose ~$500 budget accentuates thoses values (though of course not at a significant cost of other frequency performance or the incredible soundstage).
   
  Thanks for the advice, all.


----------



## drez

Quote: 





riggaberto said:


> I've heard some mention of the LYR not being as punchy as some other amps on the LCDs. Does anyone else have experience with that and could compare that aspect to some other amps?
> 
> I'm obviously underpowering them right now with an Asus Xonar, but I do find that the impact and roundness of bass to be lacking with this setup. I want to be sure the amp I choose ~$500 budget accentuates thoses values (though of course not at a significant cost of other frequency performance or the incredible soundstage).
> 
> Thanks for the advice, all.


 
   
  In my experience the AudioGD NFB-10 SE was a huge step up from my Essence ST - bass impact and definition improved, but the NFB-10 is voiced to be neutral and as such does  not have the [coloured] warmth you get in a Burson or similar amplifier, however I found it substantially more transparent as a DAC/AMP than a HA-160D I compared it against.  As a bonus the DAC in the NFB-10 delivered substantially improved soundstage, transient response and frequency extension compared to my Xonar Essence ST.  As a caveat a couple of other people found the midrange slightly dry or hard, but I personally did not find this issue with the LCD-2.


----------



## adydula

I have an Objective amp on its way and will be here tomorrow....I will try with an HRT MSii+ USB dac and my LCD2's I will let u know how it plays here....
  I will order the DAC as well for the bucks these are a real bargin for what they are 'claimed' to do...
   
  All the best..
   
  Alex


----------



## YoengJyh

Quote: 





riggaberto said:


> I've heard some mention of the LYR not being as punchy as some other amps on the LCDs. Does anyone else have experience with that and could compare that aspect to some other amps?
> 
> I'm obviously underpowering them right now with an Asus Xonar, but I do find that the impact and roundness of bass to be lacking with this setup. I want to be sure the amp I choose ~$500 budget accentuates thoses values (though of course not at a significant cost of other frequency performance or the incredible soundstage).
> 
> Thanks for the advice, all.


 
   
  based on your budget, NFB 10SE is a good try. Amp + DAC Combo.


----------



## Riggaberto

Quote: 





drez said:


> In my experience the AudioGD NFB-10 SE was a huge step up from my Essence ST - bass impact and definition improved, but the NFB-10 is voiced to be neutral and as such does  not have the [coloured] warmth you get in a Burson or similar amplifier, however I found it substantially more transparent as a DAC/AMP than a HA-160D I compared it against.  As a bonus the DAC in the NFB-10 delivered substantially improved soundstage, transient response and frequency extension compared to my Xonar Essence ST.  As a caveat a couple of other people found the midrange slightly dry or hard, but I personally did not find this issue with the LCD-2.


 
  And do you think the DAC portion of the NFB-10 SE played a bigger role or the amp? I was kind of thinking I'd upgrade 1 thing at a time to a pretty high level of quality.
   
  I'm opening my head-fi logic up to the world! Please comment!
   

 Current setup: ASUS Xonar STX > Audeze LCD-2
 Biggest quality bottleneck: Insufficient power of Xonar
 Reason for thinking that: Level of noise is low, detail is high, soundstage is open but there's a general sense that more could be unlocked. Notes on all frequencies lack impact and roundness - I think this is a power issue because my easier-to-drive Denon 2000s had better impact and roundness out of the Xonar than the LCD2. I've read widespread agreement that the LCD2s, when properly powered, _should _kick the D2000s but in that category. Conclusion: I'm not properly powered right now 
 Long term goal: To have both high end DAC & amplfication as I can afford it
 Plan: Get a high quality amp for ~$500 that I can live with long term, the setup being Xonar STX Line Out > YTBD new amp > Audeze LCD2.
 Get new DAC next, probably a year or more away
   
  I know less about the cost/value curve in amps then I do about headphones so I could be convinced that if I spent a reasonable amount over $500 it would reap large benefits.


----------



## telecaster

The PC power supply is dirty as hell. Get a 100/200$ separate DAC or a DAC/amp combo and you'll be way better than a PCI sound card. I would have a 100$+500$ dac+amp rather than a 600$ amp with your PC.


----------



## Riggaberto

Quote: 





telecaster said:


> The PC power supply is dirty as hell. Get a 100/200$ separate DAC or a DAC/amp combo and you'll be way better than a PCI sound card. I would have a 100$+500$ dac+amp rather than a 600$ amp with your PC.


 
  Can you give me an example of a separate DAC in that category? I'd prefer to keep them separate so I have more control over upgrading, though I suppose as long as a DAC/amp combo head a line out I could always go that route if I wanted to upgrade the amp.


----------



## Theoman

I received my Audez'e LCD-2 headphones a few days ago. I've been very inpressed with them over my Senn's HD-650's.
 I've been driving them with my Mcintosh S.S. I have a chance to buy a Burson HA-160 (non dac) or and Schiit LYR.
 has anyone compared the two? does one have advantages over the other?


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





theoman said:


> I received my Audez'e LCD-2 headphones a few days ago. I've been very inpressed with them over my Senn's HD-650's.
> I've been driving them with my Mcintosh S.S. I have a chance to buy a Burson HA-160 (non dac) or and Schiit LYR.
> haas anyone compared the two? does one have advantages over the other?


 
  The Lyr/LCD-2 is the better combination to my ears. Throw in the fact that 4W over 200mW is a much better match for orthos, I think its a no brainer.


----------



## Theoman

Then if i throw a dac in would I be better of with the Burson HD-160 and one for there dacs or a schiit combo?


----------



## Theoman

Burson HA-160 (non dac) or and Schiit LYR. When i need to add a DAC will it make a difference? the Burson combo or Schiit combo.
  I can get the Burson fro 475 and the Schiit LYR for 350. then i need a DAC. I mostly use LP's and cd's
   
  I've been a member for years I and didn't post just read.


----------



## drez

Quote: 





riggaberto said:


> And do you think the DAC portion of the NFB-10 SE played a bigger role or the amp? I was kind of thinking I'd upgrade 1 thing at a time to a pretty high level of quality.
> 
> I'm opening my head-fi logic up to the world! Please comment!
> 
> ...


 
   
  I think the NFB-10 SE is more DAC than amplifier, mostly because it does not have analog inputs.  If you are planning to spend more on a DAC further down the road there might be other better options, I think the NFB-10 might also be OK if you want to buy another amplifier later, but you are paying for a DAC and an amplifier so it doesn't really make much sense.  I'm also not sure if it will be the most dynamic DAC/AMP possible if that is what you are looking for.
   
  I heard somewhere that it is better to have separate chassis for DAC and amplifier due to the RFI/EMI coming off the clocks used for the DAC, I guess that depends on the master clock frequency but I have no idea really.  I think the NFB-10 is good as $499 all-in-one solution, but if you are going to upgrade later I would probably get something else.
   
  Can anyone comment on the Violectric amplifiers?


----------



## Riggaberto

Anybody have experience with using the Ray Samuels Raptor with the LCD-2s? How many watts can it pump & is it sufficient?


----------



## i019791

Quote: 





> Can anyone comment on the Violectric amplifiers?


 
  [size=medium]Drez,[/size]
  [size=medium]Having not heard Audeze LCD-2, I cannot help with an amp for LCD-2.[/size]
  [size=medium]But having currently both NFB-10SE (since November) and Violectric V200 (for 10 days now) I can provide some initial impressions with other cans:[/size]
  [size=medium]I have compared (NFB-10SE dac+amp) with (NFB-10SE dac + Violectric V200 amp) using the Sennheiser HD-650 and AKG K701 headphones, with WIN7 - Foobar - Wasapi - flac files from USB.[/size]
  [size=medium]My impression so far is that the two combos are very close in overall performance. The Violectric sound for me is very similar to the single end headphone output of NFB-10SE (I have found the balanced headphone output of NFB-10SE a little more resolving, bright and cold).[/size]
  [size=medium]Adding the Audio GD DI-DSP-S in the chain marginally improves both combos.[/size]
  [size=medium]My Hifiman HE-500 will hopefully be back from repair next week and will be similarly tested. Afterwards I will have to decide whether to return the Violectric for refund  (losing only the return delivery costs) or keeping the Violectric and hope that a more esteemed dac (Violectric V800, Audio GD REF5.2 etc) will clearly improve on the standalone NFB-10SE. Of course the cost of (Violectric V200 + “analogous” dac) will be ca. 3 times the NFB-10SE cost. Obviously I stubbornly keep away from tubes so far.[/size]


----------



## adydula

I have used a Schitt Lyr, Schitt ASGARD, SOHAII, AVA Insight + PreAmp Head section, several AVR's and just lately a O2 Headphone amp from JDSLabs designed by nwavguy.
   
  All are nice but the O2 really shines and drives my LCD2's wonderfully, indeed "Superb"...this little amp running on (2) rechargable batteries or an AC to AC adapter...not AC to DC...is the cats meow...less than $200...and it will stand up to amps much more pricier and performs very very well.
   
  Its really transparent and clean and very quiet...
   
  With the LCD's you would have to spend big bucks to get better sound and i really dont think its worth the price when this kind of performance can be had..
   
  Enjoy..
 Alex


----------



## buson160man

Just auditioned the audeze lcd2 v2 with the new bryston headphone amp today and I must say the bryston really tows the line with the lcd2.The bass is much better controled and their is a definite improvement in the dynamics department with the audezes.The bryston has really good resolution as well. I have a burson ha-160 and the bryston is definitely more suited to the lcd2. I am going to try and sell my burson to soften the blow to my balance sheet when I do upgrade.I only heard the bryston single ended on the audezes but I have never heard the lcd2 driven in a balanced fashion.They I am sure will be more powerful sounding when driven in a balanced fashion.But even single ended the bryston drives the lcd2 easily.I would add the bryston for possible future use with the audeze lcd2 v2.


----------



## efTSjakie

Yo what's up guys!
   
  So i'm buying the LCD-2 Rev.2 in 2 days. What amps do u recommend me under the 1000 euro? The amps i can choose from are:
   
*BASIC AMPS*

_Nuforce Icon iDo
 Edwards Audio HA1
 Nuforce Icon HD
 Grado Reference Amp RA-1
 Fidelity Audio HPA-100
 Harmony Design Ear 90-RCA
 Nuforce Icon HDP_
   
*PREMIUM AMPS*

_Fidelity Audio HPA-200
 Burson Audio HA-160
 Canor TP-10
 Harmony Design Ear 90-XLR ELMA
 Beyerdynamic A1
 Burson Audio HA-160DS
 C.E.C. HD-53N
 Burson Audio HA-160D_
   
  I am hoping for one of the basic amps cause i can afford the premium ones i just dont wanna waste money on the tiny differences between those things.
  urgent advise please!


----------



## Loevhagen

I guess you have done some research - and that is why it puzzles me that Violectric & Lake People is not on you lists for the LCD-2s. There's maybe a (good) reason. Of the one you have listed I would have chosen one of the Bursons for the LCD-2s.
   
  A shot in the dark of course, since you do not specify type of music you like nor the DAC you have. BTW: The HA-160D gives you a decent DAC...


----------



## efTSjakie

Quote: 





loevhagen said:


> I guess you have done some research - and that is why it puzzles me that Violectric & Lake People is not on you lists for the LCD-2s. There's maybe a (good) reason. Of the one you have listed I would have chosen one of the Bursons for the LCD-2s.
> 
> A shot in the dark of course, since you do not specify type of music you like nor the DAC you have. BTW: The HA-160D gives you a decent DAC...


 
  Thank u for answering! I'm realy not an expert at these things. I know it sounds strange to buy such an expensive headphone without any realy knowledge. My HD 650 just died and i want a new headphone and i've heard great things about the LCD-2. I just want the amps from the list cause these are the only ones i can listen to in the store where im buying the headphone. My music type is realy random but i prefer rock/Drum and bass and a bit freestyle. Also i have no idea what the DAC does ? Could u explain me ?


----------



## preproman

In that case the Burson 160D is a good choice.  It has the DAC built inside.  It's a three in one unit (with a preamp) in case you ever want to drive some powered speaker.
   
  Or the Burson 160DS if you don't need the preamp.


----------



## efTSjakie

Quote: 





preproman said:


> In that case the Burson 160D is a good choice.  It has the DAC built inside.  It's a three in one unit (with a preamp) in case you ever want to drive some powered speaker.
> 
> Or the Burson 160DS if you don't need the preamp.


 
  Alright! Thanks a lot . If anyone has any other suggestions. Feel free to give some advise.


----------



## gogogasgas

I second the Violectric - the V200 with the optional on-board DAC or, if your money will stretch, buy a V800 DAC. The V200 is neutral and powerful and the optional on-board DAC is decent. The V800 DAC is much better than the optional on-board DAC - versatile, compact and sounds terrific.


----------



## justie

there's no mention of the schiit lyr either  i've tested the violectric v200 and it sounds AMAZING with the LCD2s :O


----------



## gogogasgas

Yes - the Violectric V200 and the LCD-2 is a great match. Neutral and powerful - the V200 gets the best out of the LCD-2s.


----------



## justie

It sounds natural and its solid state which means no fuss with tubes :O tube-like sound without the maintaenance


----------



## TigzStudio

Both the Violectric V181 and the V200 are a superb match for the LCD-2 rev 1 as well as the LCD-2 rev 2.  I run both amps / headphones off a Zodiac+ DAC.  The V181 sounds the best balanced versus its single ended option, and I even prefer the V181 balanced in some cases over the V200 single ended (but I love both).  Am looking forward to Mr. Freid Rams V282, etc (hopefully in 2013).  In my opinion they are the type of amplifiers that allow you to not really think about upgrading, you are just happy with the sound and enjoy the music.  However I love to collect amps, so not in my case.    Regardless, you can't really go wrong with either, I always recommend Violectric gear.  They are built like tanks, have power to spare, are versatile and have a nice black background.


----------



## efTSjakie

Quote: 





tigzstudio said:


> Both the Violectric V181 and the V200 are a superb match for the LCD-2 rev 1 as well as the LCD-2 rev 2.  I run both amps / headphones off a Zodiac+ DAC.  The V181 sounds the best balanced versus its single ended option, and I even prefer the V181 balanced in some cases over the V200 single ended (but I love both).  Am looking forward to Mr. Freid Rams V282, etc (hopefully in 2013).  In my opinion they are the type of amplifiers that allow you to not really think about upgrading, you are just happy with the sound and enjoy the music.  However I love to collect amps, so not in my case.    Regardless, you can't really go wrong with either, I always recommend Violectric gear.  They are built like tanks, have power to spare, are versatile and have a nice black background.


 
   
  I'll look into the 181. They probably don't have it in the store im going to. V200 is just to expensive for me. Else i'll just go for the _Burson Audio HA-160D_


----------



## efTSjakie

Btw , at the moment im using a *Onkyo TX-SR313* to drive my 5.1 setup. I'm still using it and wouldn't that amp be fine already?
  or do i realy need an upgrade to hear the actual differences? I used to plug my HD 650 in there and it sounded fine (I guess?).


----------



## setamp

Look for a used beta22.  It is perfect with the lcd-2.

  
  Quote: 





eftsjakie said:


> Yo what's up guys!
> 
> So i'm buying the LCD-2 Rev.2 in 2 days. What amps do u recommend me under the 1000 euro? The amps i can choose from are:
> 
> ...


----------



## YoengJyh

Go for Woo Audio WA6SE, seem kinda popular also.


----------



## fabio-fi

The 160D is alright, but if you want to upgrade to hifiman (HE-5/6) headphones in the future (headphones that need a lot of current) the Burson soloist. 
  As a 3 on 1 solution the 160D is hard to beat though.


----------



## RedBull

I'm tempted with Audio gd Master 8. It looks powerful enough to shake lcd-2 driver. Can somebody bought one and give impression? :-D


----------



## DarknightDK

Have heard very positive impressions of the Master 8 paired with the LCD-2 / 3. Having owned some Audio Gd gear, I can tell you that they are analog sounding with a slighter darker / laid back presentation. For the asking price they represent very good value for money.


----------



## Haidar

SA-31 from audio-gd is another interesting option at $449
   
  [size=x-small]10000 MW  /   40 ohm
 8000 MW    /   50 ohm
 4000 MW    /   100 ohm
 1400 MW    /   300 ohm
 700 MW      /   600 ohm[/size]
   
  http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/SA/SA31/SA31EN_Specs.htm


----------



## tme110

everything sounds good with the lcd-2


----------



## Ultrainferno

Of all the amps I have listened to and own, I find the violectrics to be the best match for my ears


----------



## spkrs01

Personally, I find the LCD2 to be quite a coloured headphone but in the best possible way
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.
   
  Any quality amp with enough power and the LCD2 should sound very good....there is no definitive best amp for this Headphone, it is more a matter of if you like the LCD2's character.
   
  My thoughts after owning the LCD2 for about 3 months.............................


----------



## dagothur

Quote: 





haidar said:


> SA-31 from audio-gd is another interesting option at $449
> 
> [size=x-small]10000 MW  /   40 ohm
> 8000 MW    /   50 ohm
> ...


 
  Why would you ever need a head-amp with that kind of juice?  Is King-Wa catering to people who only have a K1000 and HE-6 in their collection?


----------



## fabio-fi

Quote: 





dagothur said:


> Why would you ever need a head-amp with that kind of juice?  Is King-Wa catering to people who only have a K1000 and HE-6 in their collection?


 
   
  You know, some people care mostly for power. 
  That's curious.


----------



## tme110

some people equate power with quality of amp and the power requirements of the lcd are vastly over-exagerated


----------



## darren700

Quote: 





setamp said:


> Look for a used beta22.  It is perfect with the lcd-2.


 

 This.
  I just got a Used B22 with Dual o22 PSU.
 This amp is just amazing with my LCD2v2's, the best sound ive heard from them yet. Very liquid, dynamic, and detailed with amazing bass, and yet not fatiguing at all.
   
  This will be my main amp for a long time. So lucky i found one for a great price.
   
  The LCD2's and B22 are paired with the Wyred 4 Sound DAC1 (w/ Supercaps) which is fed by the Audio-GD Digital Interface DSP & PSU.
   
  Ive been through many amps, dacs, and cans in the last two years (see my profile) and i can honestly say that i can stay with this system for many years without a change.
  IMO im done buying headphone gear now, although i'd still like to try some beyer T1's at one point.


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





darren700 said:


> This.
> I just got a Used B22 with Dual o22 PSU.
> This amp is just amazing with my LCD2v2's, the best sound ive heard from them yet. Very liquid, dynamic, and detailed with amazing bass, and yet not fatiguing at all.
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  I totally agree, I love the LCD-2.2 with the Beta 22.  However, the LCD-3 is still out there for the taking.  LCD-3 + β22 should be just as awesome.


----------



## RedBull

ultrainferno said:


> Of all the amps I have listened to and own, I find the violectrics to be the best match for my ears




Did you happened to listen to Master 8, Ultra?


----------



## Girls Generation

I'm having a dilemma of the worst at the moment. 
   
  My only cans are the LCD2 rev2.
   
  First, looking into the Lyr somehow led me to looking for a $500 tube. So I looked further, and this led me to, "if I don't get a $200+ tube, Amperex White Label PQ 6922, etc, I will not get as good of a sound I could get, and with the money I should get some other amp. 
   
  This then led me to the Mjolnir; I'm still waiting on more impressions and reviews. Somehow, I came across the fact that the Apex Peak / Volcano sounded superior to most out there, including a 4ch B22, which is unbelievable. But this is $2000+, way out of my budget. Also, I'm hoping not to deal with tubes... so I look into the Apex Arete. Still expensive with the Volcano but I thought maybe I should get the Volcano later. But there's one problem: I don't have a high end DAC to match with... only an ODAC with RCA out. So I look into a cheaper amp... come across the Apex Butte, and a comparison review with the Arete without Volcano. It seems I would prefer the sound of the Butte over the Arete, reading that Butte is more mid-centric and has better soundstage depth and center image. 
   
  With the Butte being $500, it was certainly a nice choice. However, BECAUSE it's $500, I thought, "I could extend $250 more and get the Mjolnir..." Then I happen to come across the fact that Schiit will be releasing the Statement amp/dac later this year as their flagship models.
   
  Now I just don't know where I am. It seems like I would enjoy the Peak or Arete with Volcano.... Maybe I should hold onto the Arete without the Volcano, and get it later when I can afford it? But that would be trapping myself into spending $700 on a Volcano PSU... AND a high end DAC like a W4S DAC2. That's TOO much money.
   
   
  What's your take on this?
   
  Mine is to wait on the Mjolnir reviews.


----------



## longbowbbs

girls generation said:


> I'm having a dilemma of the worst at the moment.
> 
> My only cans are the LCD2 rev2.
> 
> ...




Welcome to Head-Fi... Your wallets' in fire.


----------



## preproman

IMHO I think you will enjoy the LCD-2 with any amp you pick.  Someone said before in this thread that the LCD-2 is already a highly colored headphone, I agree 100%.  I have not heard the LCD-2s sound bad on any amp that I've heard so far. 
   
  As far as the Peak/Volcano sounding superior to a 4-channel β22 - this would be high debatable.  In my search for amps I was told my many of people which seems to like the kind of sound that I do.  That the Peak sounds thin and shrell at times compared to the β22 and that the Peak just don't have the muscle to produce the type of bass impact and response that the β22 does.  It's all subjective anyway.  Lets just say I'm really glad I picked the 4-channel β22 from YBM.
   
  For a tube amp I have on my radar the LF and ECBA.  However, their price is crazy.


----------



## dagothur

From my very small amount of experience with the Lyr, a pair of Lorenz tubes works very well with them.  It's definitely a good idea to swap out the stock tubes, but spending half the price on the amp seems a little silly in my opinion.
 The NFB 10SE is an amp/DAC combo with which I have a _great deal_ of experience with the LCD-2.2, however, and I can tell you it's a fantastic pairing for the price.  Unfortunately if you're looking to upgrade the DAC you'll have to buy a completely new unit, but at $500 for a very powerful amp and a neutral DAC, it's not a bad bargain.


----------



## Ultrainferno

Quote: 





redbull said:


> Did you happened to listen to Master 8, Ultra?


 
   
  No I haven't but I really do want to!


----------



## ishmael

I like the Lyr for a cheaper amp. Pick up a few sets of tubes and see what you like best. Later on you might try an expensive amp but the Lyr is no slouch. Sounds better with the LCD-2 than my Burson.


----------



## Girls Generation

This is what scares me about the Lyr... In the brief research I've done on the Lyr, I already have decided on 3 tubes that I "must" get if I do get the Lyr. The most likely is an Amperex PQ white label 6922 which is $200+
  Quote: 





ishmael said:


> Pick up a few sets of tubes and see what you like best.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





girls generation said:


> Mine is to wait on the Mjolnir reviews.


 
   
  Good plan!


----------



## Girls Generation

Let's hope it smashes away most of my choices and make my life much simpler.
  Quote: 





grokit said:


> Good plan!


----------



## Argo Duck

Hi GG, the Lyr's a special amp but TBH you can do better. I guess Schiit think so two, with Mjolnir and their statement amp coming up. Lyr has great tone, power and voice, but sacrifices  some degee of resolution/transparency/detail - qualities which early reports (I know you've seen them too) suggest Mjolnir supplies.
   
  Perhaps another point to consider is the things you seek really are a journey - no short-cuts. I found my listening and preferences changed each time I settled into a different component. My understanding of what's possible has changed with each piece. What I thought I wanted at the start of this headphone caper isn't what I want now.
   
  From the evident research and thought you have put into all this over the last year or so, I suspect your journey is a bit like mine.
   
  Just my cent's worth!


----------



## tme110

Quote: 





girls generation said:


> I'm having a dilemma of the worst at the moment.
> 
> My only cans are the LCD2 rev2.
> 
> First, looking into the Lyr somehow led me to looking for a $500 tube. So I looked further, and this led me to, "if I don't get a $200+ tube, Amperex White Label PQ 6922, etc, I will not get as good of a sound I could get, and with the money I should get some other amp.


 
  Yea, I've been through that iteration about 13,297 times so far and I think many others have too.
   
  The LCD pairs well with everything so it doesn't matter nearly as much as you'd think.
   
  If you get something popular, you can resell it on the forum quickly and simply buy something else. (and there are always head-fi meets)


----------



## grokit

From what I have read re the Lyr, you can just request the Valhalla tubes instead of the JJs and be done with it, you don't _have_ to roll. Having said that I didn't care much for the Lyr with my rev.1s, and I was using some nice Amprex gold pins when I tried it.


----------



## Girls Generation

Yeah... tubes is a no go for me... 
   
  I'd prefer SS with a slight more emphasis on the mids than its kins


----------



## justie

Quote: 





girls generation said:


> Yeah... tubes is a no go for me...
> 
> I'd prefer SS with a slight more emphasis on the mids than its kins


 
  Agreed with u on the tubes thing. After fiddling a bit on noisy tubes and warming up and all that prep I've decided to just go for a solid state amp in the future like the violectric.


----------



## Argo Duck

In 18 months I've had nothing but good tube experiences (Little Dot Hybrid; Lyr; Decware Taboo). And Mr Scarey says don't worry about warm up. Who's going to argue with Scarey 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  My only gripe is that with a tube amp like Taboo there are three independent variables (rectifier, driver, power tubes all change the sound).
   
  I like to keep an SS amp around as a reference point. Right now it's Meier Classic/Concerto. Later it could be Mjolnir.


----------



## vinyl addict

I really like the Burson HA-160 / LCD-2 combo but wouldn't mind hearing the Lyr


----------



## googleli

Quote: 





girls generation said:


> I'm having a dilemma of the worst at the moment.
> 
> My only cans are the LCD2 rev2.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Just get the Liquid Fire, dude.


----------



## dagothur

Quote: 





googleli said:


> Just get the Liquid Fire, dude.


 
  If the B22 is way out of his budget, the Liquid Fire certainly isn't an option.


----------



## K_19

I actually find my M³ to sound very good with the LCD-2. Some tinkering around  may be necessary to bring out those highs a bit, but other than that, it excels in the midrange and bass while giving plenty of power and headroom.


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





k_19 said:


> I actually find my M³ to sound very good with the LCD-2. Some tinkering around  may be necessary to bring out those highs a bit, but other than that, it excels in the midrange and bass while giving plenty of power and headroom.


 
   
  K,
   
  You don't think the M^3 makes the LCDx to muddy in the bass area?  As you said the highs are recesed,  so to me - not a good fit.  However, on the Beta and the CK2III they sound much better with more clarity and the bass is much tighter as well.


----------



## googleli

I did read your post, my friend, and the Liquid Fire, being a tube amp, is actually more SS than most SS amps I have heard - I hope you know what I mean.   And considering your post on not minding to spend a bit more, I think the LF is worth considering as well. You can discard my suggestion as "useless and stupid" but I did have a reason making that suggestion.


----------



## K_19

Quote: 





preproman said:


> K,
> 
> You don't think the M^3 makes the LCDx to muddy in the bass area?  As you said the highs are recesed,  so to me - not a good fit.  However, on the Beta and the CK2III they sound much better with more clarity and the bass is much tighter as well.


 

 I find it tight enough with the bass boost off personally, as good as my WA6SE (which is of course, a comparison to a tube amp so if you want the tightest, more typical SS type bass then it may not be a good comparison). What I like it about the combination the most is the liquid, grainless midrange. 
   
  I think high freq response can be good enough with good source and opamp (and if you believe in them, cables) matching, though.  But yeah, fan of highs probably need not apply. It's nice, cheap, and fatigue free with plenty of power, though, and I think it's overall a decent LCD-2 amp candidate in its price range.


----------



## preproman

Yep - agreed.  It's also a very fun amp to listen to.  By that I mean I can listen to it all night and get lost in the time.  Very, very non fatiguing.


----------



## Girls Generation

Yet you some how failed to understand the entire point of my post, that I do not want to spend upwards $1000, strictly mentioning that the Apex Peak/Volcano, which is $2000+, is out of my budget, and even the Arete alone is too much, and if I do, I am required to acquire a high end DAC as well, which in total I cannot afford. Hence your suggestion had every reason to be discarded as useless and stupid. (Do note, I'm not implying that YOU are, I'm implying your suggestion was; there is a difference.)
   
  My not minding to spend a bit more is, when the amp is in the hundreds, I would not mind spending a couple more hundred to get an amp that would bring in more bang for the buck, aka [potentially] the Mjolnir.
   
  Maybe my post required a bit more "reading between the lines" but I thought it was blatant nevertheless.
   
  I do apologize if my earlier remark in Mandarin was offensive, maybe I was a bit bitter because you were rubbing salt in the wound (a bit jealous of your resources). 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  Quote: 





googleli said:


> I did read your post, my friend, and the Liquid Fire, being a tube amp, is actually more SS than most SS amps I have heard - I hope you know what I mean.   And considering your post on not minding to spend a bit more, I think the LF is worth considering as well. You can discard my suggestion as "useless and stupid" but I did have a reason making that suggestion.


----------



## Currawong

Keep an eye out for a second-hand Phoenix. It doesn't emphasise anything, but is a "nothing but the facts maam" type amp. Crazy as it may seem, I'd also suggest an ALO RX3, though you'd have to factor in the cost of a cable adaptor, but you don't have to get it from ALO necessarily.


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





googleli said:


> I did read your post, my friend, and the Liquid Fire, being a tube amp, is actually more SS than most SS amps I have heard - I hope you know what I mean.   And considering your post on not minding to spend a bit more, I think the LF is worth considering as well. You can discard my suggestion as "useless and stupid" but I did have a reason making that suggestion.


 
   
  That's because the LF is partially a SS amp. It's a hybrid amp...tube preamp section and MOSFET (solid state) output stage.


----------



## googleli

Why are you selling yours anyway? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Getting the LL and SR009 does not mean end of the journey - there are multiple endings. I believe the LF-LCD3 and LL/BHSE/WES -SR009 are the two best endings though. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> That's because the LF is partially a SS amp. It's a hybrid amp...tube preamp section and MOSFET (solid state) output stage.


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





googleli said:


> Why are you selling yours anyway?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  ??? Not selling mine. That's Morbid. 
   
  My LF/LCD-3s are still here and getting listened to all the time. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  I'm the guy who's not a e-stat fan (disclaimer: I have yet to hear the SR009s).


----------



## googleli

Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> ??? Not selling mine. That's Morbid.
> 
> My LF/LCD-3s are still here and getting listened to all the time.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Sorry, dude. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  I see that you also have the W3000ANV. It is colored but nevertheless sounds very good. I guess this is the ultimate ATH sound. I really like how it looks but it is kind of collecting dust now, with the SR009 and LCD3 getting head time (I alternate them in weeks), but the W3000ANV is just too beautiful to sell... How do you allocate headtime between the LCD3 and W3000ANV? Btw I think the LF may not be the best for W3000ANV. While it is very good for the LCD2 and LCD3, I feel that the headphone out straight from my Zodiac Gold / Weiss DAC202 is better sounding with the W3000ANV than the LF (jack 2).


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





googleli said:


> Sorry, dude.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Yep...and I love them from the LF (I know you're not a fan of the pairing)....but could be the Telefunken vs. Siemens tube thing too (or we just don't agree). I slightly prefer my HeadAmp GS-1 with them, but the LF (jack 2) is darn close. I've got a GS-X coming in next week...so that should be fun to compare with my LCD-3s and W3000s. Yes, the W3000s are coloured, but not so coloured that they kill the presentation. They have nips and tucks in all the right places that makes them sound great.
   
  Head time is mostly LCD-3, then HD800 and the T1s/W3000s fight for what's left. But should I need closed headphones...like say my in-laws from out of town are staying with us, then the W3000s get 100% head time 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and I don't feel that I have to settle for lower quality sound just because they're closed headphones.


----------



## Girls Generation

Feel free to donate to the GG foundation when you decide you don't need something anymore.  Esp your LF, or your Weiss DAC202, googleli.


----------



## Girls Generation

Looking at the review for that, it may be exactly what I'm looking for. 
   
  Now as for the DAC, do you have any suggestions in mind? Looking for a mid-range DAC that will match well with the Phoenix.
  Quote: 





currawong said:


> Keep an eye out for a second-hand Phoenix. It doesn't emphasise anything, but is a "nothing but the facts maam" type amp. Crazy as it may seem, I'd also suggest an ALO RX3, though you'd have to factor in the cost of a cable adaptor, but you don't have to get it from ALO necessarily.


----------



## spkrs01

GG
   
  Different from the usual recommendations, I am finding the Triad L3/LLP to be quite a stunning amp to use with the LCD-2..............
   
  I have been listening to this combination for a while and, it betters the Violectric V200 by quite a fair margin, having said that it is, as an amp/power supply more expensive than the V200. In your circumstances, you could buy the L3 first and add the LLP at a later stage. My L3/LLP is sourced by a V800 Dac. 
   
  I should add the L3 is stunning with your es5 too....
   
  Have a friend who just bought the L3 for the es5 and loves the pairing..............


----------



## Girls Generation

That is extremely surprising, given that V200 is so highly praised, while the L3 is a portable amp... I'm not too sure if I'm up for dropping $800 on a portable amp until more comparison/reviews pop up to rid of my doubts... If only there was a loaner program for it...
   
  What exactly is the LLP? A power supply unit? You mentioned specifically that I could add the LLP at a later stage. Are you suggesting the LLP is a costly addition?
   
  Quote: 





spkrs01 said:


> GG
> 
> Different from the usual recommendations, I am finding the Triad L3/LLP to be quite a stunning amp to use with the LCD-2..............
> 
> ...


----------



## DarknightDK

You could, and should, get the Mjolnir.


----------



## spkrs01

Quote: 





girls generation said:


> That is extremely surprising, given that V200 is so highly praised, while the L3 is a portable amp... I'm not too sure if I'm up for dropping $800 on a portable amp until more comparison/reviews pop up to rid of my doubts... If only there was a loaner program for it...
> 
> What exactly is the LLP? A power supply unit? You mentioned specifically that I could add the LLP at a later stage. Are you suggesting the LLP is a costly addition?


 
  The LLP is a power supply.............it is $325 on top but when you whack it up to supply 30V.....oh man!!!
   
  I think nearly every review you have read of the L3 is with it running off batteries. Off batteries, you are only achieving 70% of it's potential and even then it is not so bad and to my ears betters all other portable amps anyway. I have not listened to the RX Mk3 yet. But with a dedicated power supply, it is altogether another animal.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *MacedonianHero* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> I've got a GS-X coming in next week


 
   
  Sweet, that will add some versatility to your system, not to mention a fine SS headamp.





   
   
  Quote: 





darknightdk said:


> You could, and should, get the Mjolnir.


 
   
  +1


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> I've got a GS-X coming in next week...


 
   
  The old GS-X?  Must be at a good price.  Because the new GS-X is the same price as the old GS-X for now.


----------



## spkrs01

Looks tiny, but it really is great with the LCD-2 and the HE-500, not mentioning IEMs............


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





grokit said:


> Sweet, that will add some versatility to your system, not to mention a fine SS headamp.


 
   
  Thanks Vince.


----------



## sphinxvc

Quote: 





girls generation said:


> That is extremely surprising, given that V200 is so highly praised, while the L3 is a portable amp... I'm not too sure if I'm up for dropping $800 on a portable amp until more comparison/reviews pop up to rid of my doubts... If only there was a loaner program for it...
> 
> What exactly is the LLP? A power supply unit? You mentioned specifically that I could add the LLP at a later stage. Are you suggesting the LLP is a costly addition?


 
   
  Have you thought about a good power amp?  I just picked up a sub-$500 Nelson Pass clone from a trusted DIY/head-fi member for the K1Ks, but I plan to use it for the LCD-2s as well.  Going this route has a couple of things going for it:
   

 <$500 most of the time.
 Class A
 Enough wattage
 Pass design (requires some effort to wait and spring on a well-built model)
   
  I'm on vacation at the moment, so I still have yet to hear this thing, but I'm excited to get home on Tuesday to try.


----------



## sphinxvc

.


----------



## vinyl addict

I'm thinking about upgrading to a better amp for my LCD-2 Rev.2. and currently using the Lyr.  I'm looking to get the most out of the LCD-2 
but don't want to spend more than I have to... (who does?).
   
Factoring in the law of diminishing returns, how much will these amps improve on the Lyr and will the LCD-2's full potential be realized?
   
Please give me a general %(****) of how much of an improvement there will be...an absurd assumption, I know!(****) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



or at least try to explain if it's a worthwhile upgrade $$$ wise.
   
- Apex Peak/Volcano  $2100
- Cavalli Liquid Fire  $3300 (approx)
- Woo Audio WA5-LE  $2500
   
If there are *less expensive amps* that will perform close to those listed, I wanna know about them 




   
I'll give you a headphone related example.  I went from an AKG K702 to an LCD-2.  Although the LCD-2 costs 4 times as much, 
I felt that the price difference was warranted due to the extraordinary sound and musical pleasure it gave me.
Percentage wise, I would say it was a 35-40%(**) improvement which is huge.


----------



## longbowbbs

Quote: 





vinyl addict said:


> I'm thinking about upgrading to a better amp for my LCD-2 Rev.2. and currently using the Lyr.  I'm looking to get the most out of the LCD-2
> but don't want to spend more than I have to... (who does?).
> 
> Factoring in the law of diminishing returns, how much will these amps improve on the Lyr and will the LCD-2's full potential be realized?
> ...


 
  Another combo would be the Decware CSP2+ Preamp and Taboo amp. Same price range and good reports for driving the LCD-2. www.decware.com


----------



## Girls Generation

Quote: 





vinyl addict said:


> I'm thinking about upgrading to a better amp for my LCD-2 Rev.2. and currently using the Lyr.  I'm looking to get the most out of the LCD-2
> but don't want to spend more than I have to... (who does?).
> 
> Factoring in the law of diminishing returns, how much will these amps improve on the Lyr and will the LCD-2's full potential be realized?
> ...


 
   
  Most people will tell you to get a high end DAC first if you're going for amps in the $2k+ range.
   
  Then some will tell you the Apex combo will give you better price / performance ratio.
   
  Then some will argue against this.
   
  YMMV really, and you will probably have to research a heck of a lot in comparisons to try to even have an iota of a clue to which will cater to your sound preference, unless you're located in a head-fi-user-dense city and can attend meets to hear them for yourself.
   
  I'm still doing my research, but just waiting for the Mjolnir reviews, so I can't help you out.


----------



## sphinxvc

Quote: 





vinyl addict said:


>


 
   
  Part of what makes these kinds of purchase decisions even more complicated, is that your headphone of choice might not be the one that gets you the most out for your money.  There are other permutations w/ other headphones that might get you farther for _your _preferences w/ the same amount of dollars.  So it really comes down to identifying what you want and what gives _you_ "extraordinary sound and musical pleasure."  
   
  It's not an easy thing to figure out if you haven't heard many headphones or much ancillary gear, b/c most descriptors used here will sound like abstract ideas until you hear them for yourself.  It's kind of a catch-22 thing.  You can only buy what you want if you know what you want, but you won't know what you want until you buy what you...in many cases...don't want.
   
  Apologies if I'm steering the conversation away from the LCD-2, but $2-3K is a lot of money to invest in _this _headphone IMO.
   
  And...sorry about your wallet.


----------



## Argo Duck

Hi vinyl addict. I second the Taboo recommendation even without the CSP2+ preamp. ATM I run my Taboo straight from my DAC. Taboo was originally designed as a 6W (8-ohm) speaker amp. FWIW it puts a little over 2W into an LCD2.
   
  I can't compare it to the other amps you listed as possibles. But compared to the Meier Concerto and Classic, Violectric V100 and Schiit Lyr amps I own the improvement in resolution, dynamics and microdynamics and 'musical enjoyment' is 'substantial'.
   
  I agree it is absurd to quantify this one-dimensionally but FWIW '15% or more' - less than the upgrade I experienced moving from Grado RS1/Beyer T1 to LCD2 but substantial and significant because of detail and resolution I had not heard before.
   
  GG has a point about the DAC. If my system has a bottle-neck, it would be the DAC, and I'm considering whether to 'upgrade' or not. 
   
  For comparison, I have the Eastern Electric MiniMax (considered something of a giant-killer two or three years ago), Meier Stagedac and Schiit Bifrost. I prefer Bifrost and Stagedac with my LCD2, as the EE has an upper bass/lower mid leaning which is too much with the Audez'es.


----------



## vinyl addict

Quote: 





argo duck said:


> Hi vinyl addict. I second the Taboo recommendation even without the CSP2+ preamp. ATM I run my Taboo straight from my DAC. Taboo was originally designed as a 6W (8-ohm) speaker amp. FWIW it puts a little over 2W into an LCD2.


 
  I won't be running a dac since the source will be all vinyl.
   
  In regards to the Taboo (sans CSP2+) I've read that the volume control and headphone output jack is less than desirable and the CSP2+ is a necessity.  Your thoughts?
   
  Quote: 





sphinxvc said:


> > Apologies if I'm steering the conversation away from the LCD-2, but $2-3K is a lot of money to invest in _this _headphone IMO.


 
  Yeah it's mucho dinero and would rather not go there.  Which amp would you recommend that will max out the LCD-2's performance without laying down big money?
   
  Quote: 





longbowbbs said:


> Another combo would be the Decware CSP2+ Preamp and Taboo amp. Same price range and good reports for driving the LCD-2. www.decware.com


 
  Ok... more reading to do,  Thanks for the suggestion.


----------



## Argo Duck

Quote: 





vinyl addict said:


> In regards to the Taboo (sans CSP2+) I've read that the volume control and headphone output jack is less than desirable and the CSP2+ is a necessity.  Your thoughts?


 
   
  Hi again vinyl addict
   
  That's hard to answer. Taboo was designed with a 4V input in mind, and hence CSP2+ - which can be adjusted from 1-36V - is a recommended add-on by Decware to "unleash insane dynamics". Head-fier _Frank I_ reported the CSP2 did indeed make his Taboo sound better.
   
  I don't have the CSP2+ (yet - one is incoming). Therefore I cannot comment. But I can say Taboo alone sounds more dynamic than any of the other amps I listed., for example, better dynamics _and attack_ than the Lyr (caveat: I have used good but not the top recommended tubes with Lyr).
   
  To explore this matter of dynamics I did try my HFA tube preamp with Taboo. Although Taboo and HFA have outstanding clarity in themselves, the combination was - surprisingly - muddy. A synergy problem then?!
   
  I have not tried pigtails with Taboo in order to test it with/without output jack. This would not be an easy test (swapping back and forth, listening delays), and to be useful and valuable would need a good few days concentrated effort IMO.
   
  FWIW, there are a number of head-fiers I respect - see Frank I's Taboo thread - who seem to have found Taboo with output jack and LCD2 a good combination.
   
  Finally, I thoroughly endorse Sphinxvc's reply to you - an excellent post.
   
  (Minor edits for readability)


----------



## vinyl addict

Quote: 





> I don't have the CSP2+ (yet - one is incoming). Therefore I cannot comment. But I can say Taboo alone sounds more dynamic than any of the other amps I listed., for example, better dynamics _and attack_ than the Lyr (caveat: I have used good but not the top recommended tubes with Lyr).


 
  The Taboo does sound promising.  In regards to the highs/mids, how would you describe the sound compared to the Lyr?  Ie, less/more forward, laid back, brighter, softer, neutral, etc...
   
  Does your Taboo have the V-Cap upgrade?


----------



## Argo Duck

With the caveat I stated before about what tubes I tried in the Lyr (Matsu' 6922 for the record, which I preferred to several others in the same $40-60 range), and a further caveat that these are _just my impressions_ not the result of focused comparison...
   
  I've started with how I hear Lyr. As you have one too, this may give you a reference point.
   
  I found Lyr to noticeably thicken the mids, most clearly with electric guitar. Blues and rock could sound great. Bass had grunt. Highs were characterized by surprising delicacy and finesse. Attack I found soft, especially compared to the Meier Concerto which is still king in this respect. Overall, I noticed the balance leaned toward bass, something it shares with the Violectric V100.
   
  In contrast Taboo (mostly stock tubes: 2 x 6N1P and JJ 5U4; 1 x NOS Tung Sol 12AU7 driver) I found balanced and simply more dynamic. It seems to do bass just as well as Lyr, mids - with _these_ tube-sets - were less romantic and portrayed harmonics more clearly (e.g. decay of piano and cello), and highs were extended and detailed. The overall impression is that everything is vivid (by which I mean dynamic) yet balanced.
   
  More forward? No, because it seems balanced.
   
  Laid back? No, because of the dynamics.
   
  Neutral? Yes, I'd have to say the configuration above tends markedly to neutral. Obviously though there are tube choices e.g. Mullard 12AT7 as driver which sound warmer.
   
  Brighter? Well, it does highs so well one might think so, yet I just wrote it's basically neutral..."not dark" would be the better descriptor.
   
  Softer? No, it seems to have better speed and attack than Lyr so softer is not a word I would use.
   
  VCAPs? Yes.
   
  BTW, I recently 'upgraded' the rectifier to a NOS Tung Sol 5Y3GT. This changes the voltage points and theoretically should lead to a less analytical, more lush sound. Actually, with good source material I found it sounded astonishingly "live" and "immediate". With other material not so much.
   
  The one respect in which Taboo is bettered across all my amps is attack. The Concerto is hard to beat here, but it does this by being a little dry - i.e. harmonics decay quickly. Terrific when I'm in the mood for analytical and detailed.
   
  These are my impressions FWIW. YMMV etc. I strongly urge you to audition this and your other options if you can.
   
  If there's one thing for sure, it's that we all have different ears with different brain decoding!


----------



## longbowbbs

Quote: 





argo duck said:


> With the caveat I stated before about what tubes I tried in the Lyr (Matsu' 6922 for the record, which I preferred to several others in the same $40-60 range), and a further caveat that these are _just my impressions_ not the result of focused comparison...
> 
> I've started with how I hear Lyr. As you have one too, this may give you a reference point.
> 
> ...


 






  Great Stuff! Thanks for sharing...


----------



## vinyl addict

Quote: 





argo duck said:


> These are my impressions FWIW. YMMV etc. I strongly urge you to audition this and your other options if you can.
> 
> If there's one thing for sure, it's that we all have different ears with different brain decoding!


 
  Well written, concise and to the point... very helpful 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Too bad there is no way to hear one as they only sell direct 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Much thanks AiDee


----------



## sphinxvc

Quote: 





vinyl addict said:


> Yeah it's mucho dinero and would rather not go there.  Which amp would you recommend that will max out the LCD-2's performance without laying down big money?


 
   
  How about a 2-channel Beta?  A commissioned one from a reputable builder would be around $1,300-1,400 depending on "options" chosen.  If you wait long enough, a good one will show up on classifieds.  But before you put money into a SS amp of that sort, best to wait for more Mjolnir reviews.  Mjolnir has a demo period if I'm not mistaken.


----------



## Argo Duck

Glad I could help vinyl addict; well, sort of...it's too bad we can only imperfectly describe listening information.
   
  And yes it's a shame Decware amps are only made to order - and have a 12-16 week waiting list 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  You might find the Decware forums at the Decware website - owners discuss experiences and problems there - helpful in pinning down further aspects of their sound and performance.
   
  Must admit I'm watching Mjolnir (15 day right of return IIRC) with interest, as I like to have both tube and SS options covered.
   
  That said, Meier's current _Classic_ amp - not the Concerto I mentioned yesterday - may be all I need. It has had very little attention on head-fi. Yet it's neutral, capable and completely without the dryness of the Concerto.


----------



## vinyl addict

Quote: 





argo duck said:


> And yes it's a shame Decware amps are only made to order - and have a 12-16 week waiting list
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 All the best with your next purchase 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Keep us posted!
   
  Decware is most appealing because of the lifetime warranty which is unheard of in the audio industry.


----------



## DamageInc77

I was pondering about adding a Matrix M-Stage Headphone amp in a couple of weeks. Anybody have any any experience with it for the LCD-2?
   
  It had a glowing review in 2010 on this forum. Will I notice any improvement over my Asus Xonar Essence ST?


----------



## hasanyuceer

I have an LCD2 on the way. You know it is hard to read 329 pages to ask only one question.
   
  So here is mine;
   
  Is it harmful to LCD2 to use it with integrated amplifier?
   
  I am using my HE500 with my Primaluna Prologue Two (2x40W tube amp) from speaker outputs with HE Adapter. Thinking about to use LCD2 like HE500 as well.
   
  Any thoughts?


----------



## perrew

I didnt have problem going from power amp.
Just be careful with the volume knob!


----------



## kstaken

Since you're using the HE adapter it will be fine. Did you get it with a balanced cable? I've run the LCD-2 straight off the speaker taps of numerous amps and in that scenario noise is a big problem but the resistors in the HE adapter should take care of that problem.
   
  Quote: 





hasanyuceer said:


> I have an LCD2 on the way. You know it is hard to read 329 pages to ask only one question.
> 
> So here is mine;
> 
> ...


----------



## hasanyuceer

I dont have noise while listening to HE500. I hope it wouldnt with LCD2.
   
  I didnt get the balanced cable, because I will upgrade its cable anyway. I am experienced with this situation as using HE500 with the speaker amp. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  Quote: 





kstaken said:


> Since you're using the HE adapter it will be fine. Did you get it with a balanced cable? I've run the LCD-2 straight off the speaker taps of numerous amps and in that scenario noise is a big problem but the resistors in the HE adapter should take care of that problem.


 
   
  I will, thanks!
  Quote: 





perrew said:


> I didnt have problem going from power amp.
> Just be careful with the volume knob!


----------



## DamageInc77

From what I can gather, the Lyr from Schiit is a good choice, but is there anything similar, but at a lower price point?


----------



## hekeli

Quote: 





damageinc77 said:


> From what I can gather, the Lyr from Schiit is a good choice, but is there anything similar, but at a lower price point?


 
   
  First you want M-Stage, then Lyr. How about actually deciding whether you want tubes or not? And explaining what else you are looking for, looks, soundwise.


----------



## DamageInc77

I want a warm bassy sound. Slightly tubey.
   
  Sounds like the schiit lyr is perfect for that


----------



## Ultrainferno

Quote: 





damageinc77 said:


> I want a warm bassy sound. Slightly tubey.
> 
> Sounds like the schiit lyr is perfect for that


 
   
  If you're just looking for "slightly tubey" why not get a tube like sounding ss like the Violectric or plenty of other SS?


----------



## dagothur

Quote: 





ultrainferno said:


> If you're just looking for "slightly tubey" why not get a tube like sounding ss like the Violectric or plenty of other SS?


 
  He also wants something of similar/lesser cost.  The Violectric offerings are several hundred dollars more than the Lyr.


----------



## Ultrainferno

Quote: 





dagothur said:


> He also wants something of similar/lesser cost.  The Violectric offerings are several hundred dollars more than the Lyr.


 
   
  In my defense, I did say "or plenty of other SS"


----------



## zzffnn

I prefer my LCD-2s with a neutral amp such as Beta22. BY itself, LCD-2s are already "warm" enough for my taste. My FirstWatt F2 speaker amp provides slightly more warmth to LCD-2s, but it is probably an overkill unless you listen at loud volume (>83 db).


----------



## dagothur

The LCD-2 + smooth amp + neutral source = pure audio bliss.


----------



## justie

Hi guys, can u help me out? Im currently thinking of upgrading from a Lyr. Have to mention I like to have a tubey sound but I am hoping for a SS alternative.
   
  I prefer SS as I find tubes to be quite troublesome when u consider tube rolling and isolation, warm up etc etc. I've read good things about the V200 and I've tested it out as well and it is quite a very pleasant amp.
   
  As of now, Im looking for recommendations for around the V200 price range and to do more research so I can make a better decision. Can you guys pls help me out? Thanks


----------



## preproman

So your looking for a SS amp that sounds like a tube amp?  
   
  The closest you could get to that would probably be:
  V200
  Burson 160D
  Balanced M^3
   
  Although I think a 4 channel βeta-22 would be best.


----------



## beaver316

Maybe the Schiit Mjolnir?

Edited, ya I know the gungnir is a dac


----------



## justie

Quote: 





preproman said:


> So your looking for a SS amp that sounds like a tube amp?
> 
> The closest you could get to that would probably be:
> V200
> ...


 
   Yeah, although that sounds like an impossible dream but thats what im aiming for.
  I enjoyed the V200 and i've tried the burson 160D and wasnt that really impressed with it :/
  ill have to look at the other 2 though. Thanks for ur help  Any other recommendations? Seems mjolnir and bryston are generating alot of buzz too?


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





beaver316 said:


> Maybe the Schiit Gungnir?


 
   
   
  The Gungnir is a DAC


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





beaver316 said:


> Maybe the Schiit Gungnir?


 
  Mjolnir not Gungnir. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  I haven't heard Mjolnir yet, though one is on order. I would mirror Preproman's recommendation.
  Just didn't think the V200 was all that great.
   
  IF you could swing it look into the GS-X as well. Though it's not "tubey" at all. haha


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





justie said:


> Yeah, although that sounds like an impossible dream but thats what im aiming for.
> I enjoyed the V200 and i've tried the burson 160D and wasnt that really impressed with it :/
> ill have to look at the other 2 though. Thanks for ur help  Any other recommendations? Seems mjolnir and bryston are generating alot of buzz too?


 
   
   
  Yes but they are neutral amps.  They won't sound anywhere near a tube amp.  They are SS amps to down to the bone.  I speak from owning the Bryston and reading threads on the Mjolir.


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





paradoxper said:


> IF you could swing it look into the GS-X as well. Though it's not "tubey" at all. haha


 
   
  You are absolutely right about that.  As far from a tubey sound there is..


----------



## justie

Quote: 





preproman said:


> You are absolutely right about that.  As far from a tubey sound there is..


 
  wow..that GS-X is double the price of a V200. Im trying to get something around the low 1k range. The max i could do is 1.6~1.8k because I have to consider a DAC upgrade down the line as well. (actually its the dac that would come first, and the amp is smth im looking into on the side)


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





justie said:


> wow..that GS-X is double the price of a V200. Im trying to get something around the low 1k range. The max i could do is 1.6~1.8k because I have to consider a DAC upgrade down the line as well. (actually its the dac that would come first, and the amp is smth im looking into on the side)


 
  May not be popular, but I think you should keep saving for a little bit more.


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





justie said:


> wow..that GS-X is double the price of a V200. Im trying to get something around the low 1k range. The max i could do is 1.6~1.8k because I have to consider a DAC upgrade down the line as well. (actually its the dac that would come first, and the amp is smth im looking into on the side)


 
   
   
  First you have to nail down the sound sig your looking for.  
   
  Colored amps (tube sounding amps - but not)
  V200
  Burson
  M^3
  "others I don't know about"
  To a lesser degree B22
   
  Neutral amps (no where close to the tubey sound)
  GS-1
  GS-X
  Auditor
  Mjolnir
  Bryston
  "others I don't know about"


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





justie said:


> wow..that GS-X is double the price of a V200. Im trying to get something around the low 1k range. The max i could do is 1.6~1.8k because I have to consider a DAC upgrade down the line as well. (actually its the dac that would come first, and the amp is smth im looking into on the side)


 
   
   
  The GS-1 would fit that price range.


----------



## justie

Haha, well I am technically saving up while looking for options  but yeah, i think i shld save more too XP


----------



## googleli

On the flip side, Liquid Fire is definitely the most SS sounding tube amp I have heard.


----------



## RedBull

googleli said:


> On the flip side, Liquid Fire is definitely the most SS sounding tube amp I have heard.




Dude, are selling your LF for 1.8K?


----------



## justie

Hmm, main reason I prefer SS waS because tube rolling was a hassle and because some tubes (like my lyr) dont have a black background. Is it possible to get a tube amp (with tubey sound ) that has a silent background and doesnt require tube rolling?


----------



## geetarman49

Quote: 





justie said:


> Hmm, main reason I prefer SS waS because tube rolling was a hassle and because some tubes (like my lyr) dont have a black background. Is it possible to get a tube amp (with tubey sound ) that has a silent background and doesnt require tube rolling?


 

 tube amps will never be as quiet as ss, altho some hybrids can come reasonably close.  you can get reasonable performance with the stock tubes provided with a number of diff. amps, but in almost all cases you can tailor the signature to your preference through rolling.  i would recommend attending a meet & trying various amps (tube, hybrid, ss) before committing. 
   
  if you are not comfortable performing the routine maintenance (in many, but not all instances) that ownership of tube amps invariably involves, then you are better off sticking with ss.  in my case i did not have the patience for tube amps until after i had retired.  now, my amps have at least 1 tube.


----------



## justie

Quote: 





geetarman49 said:


> tube amps will never be as quiet as ss, altho some hybrids can come reasonably close.  you can get reasonable performance with the stock tubes provided with a number of diff. amps, but in almost all cases you can tailor the signature to your preference through rolling.  i would recommend attending a meet & trying various amps (tube, hybrid, ss) before committing.
> 
> if you are not comfortable performing the routine maintenance (in many, but not all instances) that ownership of tube amps invariably involves, then you are better off sticking with ss.  in my case i did not have the patience for tube amps until after i had retired.  now, my amps have at least 1 tube.


 
   Thanks for ur reply 

 Thats wat i thought too about the time and money associated with tubes which is why I initially looked for suggestions for SS (even though i love the warm tube sound sig)

 Though there might be possible to avoid all the hassle with some tube amps but oh well, Ill keep looking for SS amps


----------



## adydula

Gone thry the tubes and its a real pain, and the NOS tube prices have become absolutley ridiculous.
   
  Objective 2 amp...$144....world class performance for cans, totally transparent....allows you to get back to the music.
   
  No warm up etc. no tubes shorting out, no tuning to your sound type....
   
  Straight wire with gain...back to the music.
   
  Simple and straight forward and lots of money left over to buy music!!
   
  and yes i have LCD2's.
   
  Alex


----------



## beaver316

So after reading the last few pages of this thread it seems the V200 is a very popular choice for the LCD2, but from what i can tell it doesnt offer balanced output! Isn't that a big drawback?


----------



## beaver316

Quote: 





preproman said:


> First you have to nail down the sound sig your looking for.
> 
> Colored amps (tube sounding amps - but not)
> V200
> ...


 
   
  The LCD2s are colored headphones, so wouldnt a neutral amp be a better pairing than a colored amp? I was almost dead set on getting the Moljnir to go with my soon-to-be-had LCD2s but after reading the comments about it having a pretty bad sound stage i think i might check it off my list. The Bryston BHA-1 intrigues me, it has both single and balanced outputs for headphones too. Anyone with the Bryston + LCD2 combo wanna say a few words on it?


----------



## adydula

LCD2's have a very flat freq curve and are not 'colored'.
   
  There are many "opinions" on this topic....thousands of posts.
   
  The V200 and the LCD2's is a great pairing...
   
  There are less expensive options that would do just as well as the V200.
   
  All the best..
   
  Alex


----------



## drez

Quote: 





beaver316 said:


> The LCD2s are colored headphones, so wouldnt a neutral amp be a better pairing than a colored amp? I was almost dead set on getting the Moljnir to go with my soon-to-be-had LCD2s but after reading the comments about it having a pretty bad sound stage i think i might check it off my list. The Bryston BHA-1 intrigues me, it has both single and balanced outputs for headphones too. Anyone with the Bryston + LCD2 combo wanna say a few words on it?


 
   
  I'm not sure about coloured but compared to a lot of headphones or even speakers the LCD-2 does have less treble presence and is not hyper revealing like a STAX 009 or HD800.  I would not describe them as coloured as such but they are perhaps less analytical than the other flagships.  Because of this some may prefer to pair them with a more revealing and analytical DAC and amplifier.  Other may prefer to make them even more romantic and present by using smoother or warmer equipment.
   
  I did not find the Mjolnir to have a bad soundstage - in fact I found it to be about on par with my AudioGD Master 6.  I only had a very quick audition mind but I found no problem with the soundstage.  I did find it quite forward as opposed to laid back so maybe this is what is at play.  In fact a quick search revelaed this post, as well as this one, this one, this one, this one, this one, this one, I can't really see much of a consensus that eh Mjolnir has a small soundstage at all (all of those posts linked are impressions that it has a good soundstage)


----------



## YoengJyh

How about trying the Woo Audio WA6SE?


----------



## adydula

Hey Drez, I understand what your saying about cans and pairing....the never ending search for the magic solution for your "stuff', ears and brain.
   
   
  There are so many variables etc....that one easily goes 'glassy eyed' and then buys based on opionions etc only to find out thats not really what I wanted in the first place...and then more opinions and money and time.
   
  Guess this is what makes this hobby interesting...
   
  To me after going thru this cycle many times have found stuff that is the least obtrusive to the music...transparent and not colored etc...amps with the straight wire with gain. etc..
   
  Even then when you find and amp like that and a dac....then u still have to deal with the cans and the source...so if you pick a device that will tailor the sound of your cans ...your going to find out that many cd's, flacs etc are going to upset this perfect world we strive for...
   
  Aint technology just grand!!
   
  Alex


----------



## geetarman49

Quote: 





adydula said:


> Hey Drez, I understand what your saying about cans and pairing....the never ending search for the magic solution for your "stuff', ears and brain.
> 
> 
> There are so many variables etc....that one easily goes 'glassy eyed' and then buys based on opionions etc only to find out thats not really what I wanted in the first place...and then more opinions and money and time.
> ...


 
  absolutely!  that's why nothing beats trying out equipment (headphones, amps, sources) for yourself & this is especially true for those with limited experience.  they need to get to headphone meets; go to stores which have a selection of amps and headphones & team up with someone local to discuss/share experiences.  all three of those situations have helped me a lot even tho i've had more than 3 decades of high-end audio experience.


----------



## adydula

yup....i hate to see new guys getting a set of cans, find an amp that makes them sound good to them and then get new cans and then say..."hey...what happened!"
   
  Alex


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





adydula said:


> LCD2's have a very flat freq curve and are not 'colored'.


 
   
  ^ This.


----------



## sphinxvc

Quote: 





beaver316 said:


> ...but from what i can tell it doesnt offer balanced output! Isn't that a big drawback?


 
   
  Not in the least.  In fact, depending on the amps being compared, the opposite can be true.


----------



## kingmajix

Love, love, love my LCD-2s. I currently have a KICAS Caliente and I'm thinking of trying a new amp. 

My one request: rock solid, hard hitting bass that goes low. Looking to stay at $1,000 or below but if there's something out there that's mind blowing and costs more, I'd love to hear about it. 

Thanks!


----------



## drez

Quote: 





kingmajix said:


> Love, love, love my LCD-2s. I currently have a KICAS Caliente and I'm thinking of trying a new amp.
> My one request: rock solid, hard hitting bass that goes low. Looking to stay at $1,000 or below but if there's something out there that's mind blowing and costs more, I'd love to hear about it.
> Thanks!


 
   
  Sounds like you want a Schiit Mjolnir


----------



## Neogeo333

+1
  My LCD-2 never gave out the clean and tight bass until it was driven by the Mjolnir.


----------



## kingmajix

Wow, two Mjolnir recommendations right off the bat.
   
  Hope this isn't too off topic... this would be the first time that I go balanced. Would you guys recommend I get the stock Audeze balanced cable or is there another reasonably priced cable out there that gets top pick?


----------



## nigeljames

Quote: 





neogeo333 said:


> +1
> My LCD-2 never gave out the clean and tight bass until it was driven by the Mjolnir.


 

 I also get amazingly deep tight bass with my Master-6. Maybe its a balanced thing or maybe a power thing.


----------



## beaver316

Quote: 





kingmajix said:


> Wow, two Mjolnir recommendations right off the bat.
> 
> Hope this isn't too off topic... this would be the first time that I go balanced. Would you guys recommend I get the stock Audeze balanced cable or is there another reasonably priced cable out there that gets top pick?


 
   
  Everyone seems to agree that Audeze's stock cables are monkey nuts.


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





nigeljames said:


> I also get amazingly deep tight bass with my Master-6. Maybe its a balanced thing or maybe a power thing.


 
   
   
  I can just imagine the Master-6 + LCDX combo.  The bass is crazy good with the all balanced B22, M^3 + LCD-2.2 combos.  I can't wait to hear a Dynahi with these as well.


----------



## sphinxvc

Quote: 





beaver316 said:


> Everyone seems to agree that Audeze's stock cables are monkey nuts.


 
   
  Monkeys seem to get along fine with their nuts, and the Audez'e get along fine with their stock cable.


----------



## dagothur

Quote: 





beaver316 said:


> Everyone seems to agree that Audeze's stock cables are monkey nuts.


 
  I somehow doubt Audeze used monkey testicles in the manufacture of their cables.


----------



## longbowbbs

dagothur said:


> I somehow doubt Audeze used monkey testicles in the manufacture of their cables.




Or as a comparative standard...:rolleyes:


----------



## sphinxvc

.


----------



## treebug

Anyone tried the LCD-2 with the Lehmann BCL? (Apologies if this has already been asked).


----------



## RedBull

Yes I have LCD-2 with BCL and it sounded very very good. Very detail, fast and very good open soundstage and depth with smooth, clean high. Timbre is spot on. No flabby bass here, bass control is superb. I am looking for an SS upgrade but have not found yet. Maybe Master 8, but I am still waiting for more comparison.


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





redbull said:


> Yes I have LCD-2 with BCL and it sounded very very good. Very detail, fast and very good open soundstage and depth with smooth, clean high. Timbre is spot on. No flabby bass here, bass control is superb. I am looking for an SS upgrade but have not found yet. Maybe Master 8, but I am still waiting for more comparison.


 
   
   
  RedBull,
   
  I see your an Audio-gd guy.  That's cool.  I guess you can say I'm a DIY guy..  Anyway there good choices which ever way you go.  I just haven't gotten into tubes yet.  I was thinking about a EC BA.  Any thoughts on that?


----------



## RedBull

I'm not yet fully assimilated Audio Gd man preproman 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  I only have his DACs so far.  
  I was impressed with most comments about his DAC, but to avoid dissapointment, I try half heartedly his mid level NFB-2.  I was not dissapointed, so I go all the way to his top DAC.  I'm very very happy so far.
   
  Now, I'm curious how his amp sound like.
   
  I read a lot and take notes people comments about amps. 
  I have some kind of simple 'knowledge base' compilation about amps.  I avoid amps with comments like bright (obviously), slightly hot treble, slightly soft/rounded bass, borderline bright, thin, light, grainy, dry, smearing some details, narrow/shallow soundstage, colored, stepped attenuator, hum, slow, slightly, amp that can potentially cook my headphone 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




,  warm!
   
  I like, smooth, wide and deep soundstage, clean high, tight controlled bass, FAST, dynamic, detail, , non fatiguing, liquid, neutral (subjective).
   
  Amps like Burson 160, V200, Lyr, WA22, GS-1, WA2 have some character that I don't like.
  Well, Leben is slightly colored, but I like its color.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  deep soundstage, dynamic, sexy timbre.
  Phonitor/Auditor is very smooth and neutral, but my main headphone is LCD-2, I don't think they can drive orthos to its potential, but it sounded the best from my HD650.
   
  Audio Gd sound description seems to meet most of criteria, but I haven't try their amp in detail yet.
  I tried Phoenix before with HD650 and T1 in SE (which I believe it's not the best match) before I have LCD-2 and I thought it sounded smooth and non fatiguing.
   
  Now, to answer your real question, I haven't tried the BA, but I read comment that "_The bass is a little bit rounded - not as controlled nor tight compared to certain amps, i.e. (Apex Peak/Volcano, Dynahi, etc.)_" - now, I don't have to crave about it, but I certainly will try when I have a chance.


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





redbull said:


> I'm not yet fully assimilated Audio Gd man preproman
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  Wow with a criteria like that I'm not sure there is an amp out there that will fit your needs.  Very high standards.  I guess that's why I have multiple amps and for the exact reason you stated above.  However, I happen to love an amp or two that you dislike 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  "GS-1"


----------



## LugBug1

Quote: 





sphinxvc said:


> Monkeys seem to get along fine with their nuts, and the Audez'e get along fine with their stock cable.


 





 lol
   
  Yeah as far as stock cables go, I'd say it's very good.


----------



## dagothur

I have experience with the NFB 10SE and it fits all of your criteria.  Fast, neutral, transparent, detailed, smooth and with enough power to drive pretty much any non-Stat headphone.


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





dagothur said:


> I have experience with the NFB 10SE and it fits all of your criteria.  Fast, neutral, transparent, detailed, smooth and with enough power to drive pretty much any non-Stat headphone.


 
  Hmm..HE-6?


----------



## steve2151

I have one sitting on my desk with a HE-6 hooked up to it. It puts out 6 W at 50 ohm, 2 W more than Lyr at this resistance (Lyr puts out 6 W at 32 ohm). Listening volume is doable at 15/48 on high gain.


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





steve2151 said:


> I have one sitting on my desk with a HE-6 hooked up to it. It puts out 6 W at 50 ohm, 2 W more than Lyr at this resistance (Lyr puts out 6 W at 32 ohm). Listening volume is doable at 15/48 on high gain.


 
  Do you notice any etching or smearing? Only ask because I did with the Lyr.


----------



## steve2151

I thought it was a pretty good match with no smearing issues. The frequency response worked to very close to neutral in my book, with liquidy mids and the deep sub bass balancing out the crystal clear highs. My HD 800 do sound slightly etched on occasion, but hopefully the Arete/Volcano combo I have on the way will fix that. 
   
  Note that several people did prefer the NFB-10/LCD-2 combo since they thought the HE-6 was a too bright in this pairing.


----------



## dagothur

The NFB is a very slightly bright piece of equipment, but matches well with nearly everything that's well recorded.


----------



## treebug

Quote: 





redbull said:


> Yes I have LCD-2 with BCL and it sounded very very good. Very detail, fast and very good open soundstage and depth with smooth, clean high. Timbre is spot on. No flabby bass here, bass control is superb. I am looking for an SS upgrade but have not found yet. Maybe Master 8, but I am still waiting for more comparison.


 
   Thanks RedBull. No background hiss at all? And how do you find them comfort wise?


----------



## LugBug1

Just while we're on the subject of Audio gd I've been pleased with the C2.2 for a while now, it powers both my plannars very respectably. It's really quite a bargain!
   
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=audio%20gd%20c2.2&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCEQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.audio-gd.com%2FPro%2FHeadphoneamp%2FC-2new%2FC2.2EN.htm&ei=q51FUOKaBKi90QXbq4GQCg&usg=AFQjCNHTGHenaNmlCwESuW22GySr6myrjg
   
  I replaced the opamps with a pair of LT1028ACN8 which are very transparent and much better than the stock and overly warm burr brown's.


----------



## RedBull

Quote: 





treebug said:


> Thanks RedBull. No background hiss at all? And how do you find them comfort wise?


 
   
  Nope, no background hiss at all even at 100% volume.  I'm so happy with this combo I find a hard time to find an upgrade.
   
  Comfort wise of LCD-2?  It was heavy at first, I got some neck tiredness. 
  But after a week of normal using, I prefer LCD-2 comfort than my HD650.


----------



## RedBull

Quote: 





preproman said:


> Wow with a criteria like that I'm not sure there is an amp out there that will fit your needs.  Very high standards.  I guess that's why I have multiple amps and for the exact reason you stated above.  However, I happen to love an amp or two that you dislike
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Yeah, I find a hard time to find an upgrade for my BCL (SS amp).
  But no amps are perfect, I have to compromise too.
   
  GS-1 is a very good, clean and very fast amp, but I thought I like a touch 'thicker' vocal of BCL, but not more. 
  I find my BCL suits all my needs, but you know, this hobby is a journey, not destination. 
  That's what makes it fun 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  explore new sound, new civilization.


----------



## adydula

Objective 2 amp with my LCD2's R2 are just super....listening to Hot Rocks and the Stones remastered, or Regina Spector....shake it up the bass it there in your face tight and beautiful...and this amp only costs $150 or so...I have 2 of them now, and my Asgard and Lyr are both sold. Its that good.
   
  And it does this on pure DC, 2 nine volt batteries or AC to AC adapter..
   
  No breaking the bank for awesome sound from the LCD2's..
   
  All the best
  Alex


----------



## mamba315

adydula said:


> Objective 2 amp with my LCD2's R2 are just super......




This is nice to hear. My O2 should be here in a day or two and I have the LCD-2 R2's as well. What's your source and what gain setting do you use?


----------



## adydula

Source is Flacs on a pc via USB Dac....I use the ODAC and a HRT MSii+.
  Both very good dacs....
   
  Gain is set to the lower of the defaults that are in the amp: Dual Gain Switch (2.5x and 6.5x).
   
  I use the lower gain setting and crank up the volume to about 1/2 way to make the LCD2s start to really shine.
   
  I have two different AC to AC adapters to see if the higher voltage and or current capability makes any real difference.
   
  The amp with pure dc off batteries gets rid of all those nasty AC power issues. like ripple etc....
   
  This amp is a simple, elegant solution for cans for sure...
   
  You can use the higher gain setting and not turn up the volume knob as much, but using the least amount of gain is the best way to get the least amount of potential distortion....its ok to use the lower gain setting and crank the volume knob up...thats what its there for.
   
  Enjoy your O2!
   
  Alex


----------



## drez

Quote: 





adydula said:


> Source is Flacs on a pc via USB Dac....I use the ODAC and a HRT MSii+.
> Both very good dacs....
> 
> Gain is set to the lower of the defaults that are in the amp: Dual Gain Switch (2.5x and 6.5x).
> ...


 
   
  You might be surprised how much ripple there is on a battery and how little there is on some high quality well filtered switchmode let alone linear power supplies.  Having said this, batteries can be excellent if they are specified and filtered properly, just not necessarily better in noise level than AC derived power supply.


----------



## LugBug1

Quote: 





adydula said:


> Source is Flacs on a pc via USB Dac....I use the ODAC and a HRT MSii+.
> Both very good dacs....
> 
> Gain is set to the lower of the defaults that are in the amp: Dual Gain Switch (2.5x and 6.5x).
> ...


 
  Sounds like a great little amp, I've been tempted to check one out before but then I see the pics and think hang about this little portable thing cannot drive plannars! but obviously it does.
   
  Just on the subject of gain, when you use the higher gain setting on any amp this is "voltage gain" and so you should in theory be feeding the very hungry orthos more power.. this should be better? Or am I wrong? I know the pros and cons about having more volume pot freedom with low gain, but having the volume lower knowing that they are getting more voltage on high gain seems like the better option for the LCD's to me. Admittedly It's an area that I'm not to sure about.. and I'm constantly switching between the high and low gain of my amps trying to tell a difference. I'm sure that bass is more full on high gain but treble is unaffected.


----------



## danik97

Hi guys. I want to find a tube amp with warm and bassy sound for lCD-2 and HD800. >$600. i see like variants LYR and WooAudio WA3/WA6. What you can me advice?


----------



## RedBull

You can throw in Darkvoice 337 or LaFigaro 339.  They fit your description and your bill.


----------



## danik97

redbull said:


> You can throw in Darkvoice 337 or LaFigaro 339.  They fit your description and your bill.



Thank you. I'll read about them.
You think they are better in quality of sound than LYR and WA6?


----------



## danik97

Sorry, my false. Less than 600$. And amp needs in not big size.


----------



## RedBull

I heard Lyr and DV337 (not LF339, but I think they are quite similar.  I hope my guess is right), but I have not heard WA6.
   
  DV337 has a different sound than Lyr.
  Lyr is more solid state, tight, punchy bass, sligthly warm.  DV337 is more tubey sound, longer decay, very very nice for orchestra, very LARGE and spacey sound.   FULL, fat bottom end, but not so tight bass.
   
  But unfortunately. I think 339 does not meet your requirement on budget and size.


----------



## danik97

Thank's for your opinion. Yes, it is not in my plan to spend much money, I just want to "try" a tubes. And lack of free space in my computer zone. Maybe somebody listened a Darkvoice 336?


----------



## RedBull

I have not heard DV336, I am afraid I do not have valid opinion to compare with Lyr or WA3/6.
   
  I think pure tube (OTL) won't sound best with LCD-2, you need a Hybrid (Lyr) or a transformer coupled (WA6) or an SS amp.
   
  Have you check out Little Dot 1+?  I think it is very good for its price, very small and it's quite powerful too.


----------



## danik97

I've heard about Little Dot, but they are not popular, I'm afraid to do deal with them. I found opinions that Lyr is nice with LCD-2 and HD800, but as you said, it is not really tube warm sound. Though I found a popular Russian company "Laconic" who's producing a non-OTL tube amp "Night Blues mini". Price is bit more than Lyr, but I think and another people tells that it is what I find. Thank you RedBull for advicing.!


----------



## RedBull

My pleasure.
   

   
  Hey, that's cute.  Only that I don't understand what it says in the website.  Ok, I ask my uncle to translate below =>
   
  That's a hybrid design.  Yeah, OTL is not so suitable for LCD-2 anyway.
   
  You can maybe consider a used DNA Sonett, little bit stretching your budget, but it is transformer coupled amp.
  I am also tempted to try this one.
   
  ================================================================================================================
  Laconic Lunch box H-AMP

 Данный усилитель специально разработан для использования с низкоомными наушниками от 24 Om  до 600 Om. Наилучшие результаты были получены от 32 до 300 Om.
 В гибридном усилителе Lunch Box H-AMP применены миниатюрные лампы 6С31Б-Р. Усилитель сочетает в себе преимущество ламповых и транзисторных усилителей, высокую мощность с низкоомными наушниками и мягкое комфортное ламповое звучание. Лаконик H-AMP выполнен в едином дизайне усилителей и ЦАП серии LunchBox. Лампы располагаются внутри корпуса под вентиляционными отверстиями, таким образом, лампы защищены от случайного прикосновения.
 Усилитель Лаконик LunchBox H-AMP обладает ровной амплитудно-частотной характеристикой. Благодаря низкому полному выходному сопротивлению, при подключении разных наушников c разными импедансами, в наушниках не будет изменения в АЧХ. Выходной уровень сопротивления для низкоомных наушников в 16 Ом составляет около 1 В, для высокоомных около 7 В. Данный уровень будет достаточен для наушников со средней и низкой 
   
  ================================================================================================================
   
  Laconic Lunch box H-AMP

 This amplifier is designed for use with low-impedance headphones from 24 to 600 Om Om. The best results were obtained from 32 to 300 Om.
 In the hybrid amplifier Lunch Box H-AMP applied miniature lamps 6S31B-R. Amplifier combines the advantages of tube and transistor amplifiers, high power with low impedance headphones and a comfortable soft tube sound. Laconia H-AMP made ​​in a single amplifier design and DAC series LunchBox. Lamps located inside a vented, so the lamps are protected against accidental contact.
 Amplifier Laconia LunchBox H-AMP has a flat frequency response. Due to the low output impedance, connecting different headphones c different impedances, the headphones will not change in response. Output resistance level for low resistance headphones at 16 ohms is about 1 to about 7 of high B. This level will be sufficient for headphones with medium and low sensitivity.
   
  ================================================================================================================


----------



## RedBull

Ooops, sorry, I pasted the wrong amp, should be this one what you are looking for:
   

   
  Size WxHxD in mm 195h135h250
   
  Hmm, not too big, not a Hybrid, looks good too.
  Please post impression once you get one  
   
  ====================================================================================================
   
  Headphone Amplifier Laconic Night Blues NB-3A

 2012 model year. Universal tube amplifier designed for low impedance and high-impedance load. Has a *transformer output*, which makes it possible to get the highest quality sound. In the new lamps are used, originally developed for audio applications - is the input and the output light 6N8S 6P6S. In headphone amplifier used a specially designed low-noise power supply circuit. NB-3A features high output power and can handle high-impedance headphones. For that there are two outputs for low resistance and high impedance headphones.
 The emphasis in the design was made to the highest quality work with low impedance tube amp headphones. In conventional tube amplifiers for compatibility with low-impedance headphones added resistance, on the one hand reduces the output power, and the other sounding headphones turns tonally colored, that is not always acceptable. For this reason, it is tube sound quality can be enjoyed only in the high impedance headphones. Circuitry Night Blues is optimized primarily with low-impedance headphones and now for the low-impedance headphones do not need to use a transistor amplifier.
 Night Blues, *not a hybrid*, combines the advantages of the transistor and tube amp, being all-tube, though the amplifier can be to work with a low-impedance load. At the moment, the amplifier is the flagship of the headphone amplifier of Laconia.


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





drez said:


> You might be surprised how much ripple there is on a battery...


 
   

   
  se


----------



## danik97

RedBull, yes it is this amp. There are two versions, also "mini". But I thought to add extra money and take original version. It is about $800 w/o shipping costs.


----------



## Argo Duck

Edit: Oops sorry, didn't see the following posts. I see danik's not interested in LD anyway!
  ^ Good advice and comments RedBull but I don't know about the LD 1+.
  You mean the tube-hybrid right? Stock?
   
  I have it - great with Grados for its price, but not nearly enough power for LCD2.
   
  But like I said, mine is stock. I know some people rolled tubes and chips. There's a thread about it somewhere round here. Maybe there's a combination that works...


----------



## RedBull

^ I see.
   
  I never heard LD 1+ actually, but with the rated power, I am surprised it does not have enough power for LCD.
  32 ohms: 800mW
 120 ohms: 300mW
 300 ohms: 150mW
   
  Cos I have BCL with the lower rated power and I am very happy with it, but I have to set medium gain, otherwise not so dynamic.
  BCL:
  60 Ohms: 400mW
 300 Ohms: 200mW


----------



## Argo Duck

^ I agree, based on these figures (btw, RMS or peak?) the LD1+ should be capable of about 500mW (RMS? Peak?) into 50 ohms; 427mW into 60. The 32 ohm figure suggests it has sufficient peak current.
   
  Yet it definitely was very underpowered compared to the Meier Concerto, which has similar figures to the BCL???
   
  One of life's mysteries!


----------



## MEDO

Hey, i'm in the market for an amp to my LCD-2, budget around ~160$~ 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. i currently don't have anything to do them justice, i'm looking at :
 Audioengine D1 170$ =====> good dac with an amp  Topping TP D2 165$ ======> good amp with a dac  which one will have a better synergy with the LCD-2, I don't care about the portability of the D1 at all or anything except for the sound. i'll drive them with one of these for about 3-4 months till i can get them a proper set up.


----------



## danik97

Who less?


----------



## drez

Quote: 





steve eddy said:


> se


 
   
  dang you cant get ripple from a battery huh
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  I think I meant noise.


----------



## adydula

What you mean you never have seen an AC Battery??/
   




  Alex


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





drez said:


> dang you cant get ripple from a battery huh
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  They're pretty darn quiet noise-wise too.
   
  se


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





adydula said:


> What you mean you never have seen an AC Battery??/
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Yeah, I saw me some batteries with "AC" on them. But right after the "AC" they said "Delco." 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  se


----------



## adydula

Just make sure they are the 'Deep Cycle' model..
   
  Alex


----------



## adydula

LugBug1...
   
  You should use the least amount of gain that makes your cans play well / loud and not hurt your ears or damage you hearing....
   
  The input source and headphone sensitivityhave to be considered when setting up the gain.
   
  Most folks have no idea on how this really works...for most stuff the standard gain settings this amp is built with is fine.
   
  You want to be able to be able to have your cans reach there full potential.
   
  There are other places on the web you can read about gain, and volume and how they are related.
   
  Alex


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





adydula said:


> Just make sure they are the 'Deep Cycle' model..


 
   
  True enough.
   
  se


----------



## mamba315

Got my O2 about a week ago and had to wait a couple more days to receive the 1/8 to 1/4 adapter for the LCD-2. I also got a line out cable for my iPhone so that I could have an entire system that is easily moved and battery operated.

Anyways this thing sounds terrific. It has a very powerful yet clear sound which sounds great with every type of music. With my weakest source and quiet material, 2.5x gain was still more than I needed. So I clipped the resistors on the high 6.5x gain setting and made it 1x. This is perfect and I don't think I'll ever need more, even with the weaker iPhone as source. Most of the time I don't go beyond 50% volume even with unity gain.

Listening to Dire Straits in complete darkness while sitting in bed a couple nights ago was an amazing experience. I've heard these songs countless times, but never quite like that. I get a lot more out of music when I'm comfortable and it's dark, and that's a lot easier to accomplish with a transportable system like this. Truly desktop level sound quality without the limitations. Everyone should have one!


----------



## adydula

mamba 315...
   
  Congratulations on your O2, it is indeed very special.
   
  It works so well...listening here right now on batteries and an external ODAC ...just exquisite.
   
  Alex


----------



## BlingJorn

Hi all,

 I've been a hobbyist electronic music producer for quite a few years and have recently upgraded my old Beyer Dt770 headphones for Audeze's LCD-2.2. I'm absolutely blown away by the Audeze's, I never thought headphones could sound this good or mixes translate to monitors (KRK V8 mkII) so well. I've occasionally forgotten that I'm wearing headphones, incredible.

 I'm currently driving them from Metric Halo's ULN-8 dac > built-in headphone amp which sounds stunning to me, but it leaves me wondering if there is still more potential to be had from the Audeze's by using a dedicated amp like the Bryston BHA-1 (or something similar with a neutral tonality).

 So my question is, has anyone done a direct comparison between the ULN/LIO headphone amp and the Bryston or similar? How much of an improvement, if any, is to be had? And in which areas? 
 I've done quite a bit of googling and can't seem to find much on the Halo's headphone amp compared to anything else.

 Many thanks


----------



## RedBull

Has anyone has any comparison driving LCD-2 with Lehmann BCL vs Audio Gd C2?


----------



## jc2012

Can I use LCD-2 without an amp (e.g. plug it directly to an iphone or a computer)? OK, I know I can do it. What I mean is how it sounds without an amp?


----------



## johnwmclean

Quote: 





jc2012 said:


> Can I use LCD-2 without an amp (e.g. plug it directly to an iphone or a computer)? OK, I know I can do it. What I mean is how it sounds without an amp?


 
   
  Sounds like a giant iBud, a lot heavier too... Seriously though, I could live with the LCD-2 without amplification.


----------



## LugBug1

Quote: 





jc2012 said:


> Can I use LCD-2 without an amp (e.g. plug it directly to an iphone or a computer)? OK, I know I can do it. What I mean is how it sounds without an amp?


 
  You could, but IMO it would be a huge waste of money.... it won't sound any better than say a good quality portable headphone that is designed for this.


----------



## Francoy

Quote: 





jc2012 said:


> Can I use LCD-2 without an amp (e.g. plug it directly to an iphone or a computer)? OK, I know I can do it. What I mean is how it sounds without an amp?


 
   
  I find my iPhone/iPad has never sounded better than with my LCD-2s when used « unamped ». Same could be said with a computer (mind you I have Macs and I use a software EQ to enhance the dynamics and bass when used without a DAC and amplifier). In my experience, it is still satisfying. My amps bring a lot to the table in both cases, but the LCD-2s sound very good to my ears directly plugged into stuff :¬)
   
  Note: I have a lot of experience with various headphones plugged directly in my iPhone/iPad because of frequent night stays at the hospital (and no I don’t want to bring an amp - even a portable one). So between AKG 700s, Beats, Skullcandys, Koss Portapros, Senn 600s and of course the Apple earbuds, the LCD-2s gets the nod. But out of the lot they are probably the worst in therms of ease of movement, lightness and weird factor.


----------



## Dar3k

How is the sound quality of the LCD2 paired with*[size=small] [/size]*Asus Xonar Essence STX, does it give the LCD2 justice?


----------



## drez

Still sounded pretty good to me, better than the Grados i was using before on my STX.  You can always buy an uber powerful amplifier later.


----------



## daniel521

Will the NFB 12.1 be a good amp for the LCD-2? In case it is, is it worth sending 300 dollars more on the NFB 10?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

I can add Schitt Mjolnir and CEntrance M8 prototype as working very well with LCD-2.


----------



## longbowbbs

HA, what are the dimensions of the M8?


----------



## RedBull

Has anyone tried Audio gd Master 8 yet for LCD-2?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote: 





longbowbbs said:


> HA, what are the dimensions of the M8?


 
   
http://centrance.com/products/hifi-m8/
   
   

  Unit Dimensions:

  127 mm (L) x 82 mm (W) x 33 mm (H)


----------



## Chgm

anyone here have tried the lcd 2 with the schiit mjonir or with the new alo audio pan am?thanks


----------



## palchiu

Quote: 





chgm said:


> anyone here have tried the lcd 2 with the schiit mjonir or with the new alo audio pan am?thanks


 
   
  I've LCD-2 R2 w/Pan-Am
   
  Pan-Am isn't the best for sure, but it bring musical voice that I'm enjoyed.
   
  And it's power cord free rig., I like it's moveable and listening anywhere in house.


----------



## Chgm

thanks palchiu,its nice to hear this,but anyone have tried or even compared the pan with lyr?


----------



## ericfarrell85

CSP2+ (preamp) > Decware Taboo > LCD 2 is the best I've heard them. Better than my Beta 22, Zana Deux, Marantz 2285, Lyr and WA6SE I tried. Takes the LCD's to a whole 'nother level of clarity and transparency that I never realized they had. Tubes of course play a part here, but I don't remember ever feeling so differently about a headphone before and after as I have with the LCD's.


----------



## longbowbbs

Quote: 





ericfarrell85 said:


> CSP2+ (preamp) > Decware Taboo > LCD 2 is the best I've heard them. Better than my Beta 22, Zana Deux, Marantz 2285, Lyr and WA6SE I tried. Takes the LCD's to a whole 'nother level of clarity and transparency that I never realized they had. Tubes of course play a part here, but I don't remember ever feeling so differently about a headphone before and after as I have with the LCD's.


 
  Gotta love Decware gear!


----------



## Francoy

Quote: 





ericfarrell85 said:


> CSP2+ (preamp) > Decware Taboo > LCD 2 is the best I've heard them. Better than my Beta 22, Zana Deux, Marantz 2285, Lyr and WA6SE I tried. Takes the LCD's to a whole 'nother level of clarity and transparency that I never realized they had. Tubes of course play a part here, but I don't remember ever feeling so differently about a headphone before and after as I have with the LCD's.


 
   
  Care to share your favorite tubes with us? (or maybe on the decware thread...)
   
  Cheers


----------



## ericfarrell85

Sure: 
   
  CSP2+ > Sylvania 5U4G Rectifier, 3 Genelax 6922 Gold Lions 
  Taboo > Sylvania EL84 Backplates, Sylvania 5U4G, Mullard 12AT7


----------



## longbowbbs

I am also using the JAN Sylvania 5U4G, and I have a Golden Lion in the Driver slot with two 6N1P's on either side...


----------



## Argo Duck

Still experimenting with my CSP2+/Taboo. Eric struck the tube-jackpot right from the start!
   
  Different tube combinations bring different levels between neutral and warm. Many though seem to bring out a live, being there feel to (well-recorded) music.
   
  Regardless of the exact tubes, dynamics and micro-dynamics are very good (exposing fine detail - e.g. vocal nuances - I hadn't noticed before), decay is natural and instruments and textures well-separated.
   
  Decware + LCD2 is a great combination - well, what Eric said...


----------



## navii

Im thinking of using a speaker amp for my LCD2s.
   
  This one in particular: http://www.22tutu.com/en/index.php
   
  What do you guys think? good/bad idea?
   
  Reason why I want to use it is because I really love how that amp looks.


----------



## grokit

From a power standpoint it's adequate, around 1.5 watts into 60 ohms. And you should be fine without resistors as the amp is hybrid and not OTL. How much is it?


----------



## navii

Nice. Thanks for the info.
   
  Its about $900, but then there is freight from Japan. So I am guessing its going to be about 1K.


----------



## grokit

Have you considered the new Woo WA7? It has a built in DAC, and is less expensive with the introductory price. Aesthetically it's another beautiful (in a different way) two-tube amp and comes in silver or black. And it's a headphone amp, made in the USA.


----------



## RedBull

grokit said:


> From a power standpoint it's adequate, around 1.5 watts into 60 ohms. And you should be fine without resistors as the amp is hybrid and not OTL. How much is it?




How do you calculate it's 1.5W into 60 ohms?


----------



## Argo Duck

I'm not remotely an EE but the math for this is simple given certain assumptions.
   
  Here's the basic formula for power in terms of volts and resistance/impedance:
   
  (1) P = V*V/R
   
  where P in Watts, V in volts, R in ohms.
   
Assumptions
  Being a hybrid, there's no transformer to complicate the transfer function (*).
  Because it drives 6-8 ohm speakers, there will be no problem delivering the current an orthodynamic craves either - so this will not limit achievable power.
  It's not stated but I assume power figures are rms, not that this affects the calculations.
   
  Ok; we have 12 watts into "6-8" ohms. This gives us P and R; we need V*V.
   
  Rearranging (1), PR = V*V or 
   
  (2) V*V = PR
   
  Let's be generous and take the higher ohms figure, then V*V = 12 * 8 = 96.
   
  Now applying the LCD2.2 (60 ohms) to formula (1) we get:
   
  P = 96/60 = 1.6 W, or "about around 1.5W" just as Grokit said.
   
  Note the LCD3 (50 ohms IIRC) gets 1.92W.
   
  Btw, a nice looking amp.
   
  (*) c.f. Decware Taboo, which delivers 6W into 8 ohms but comes out in the 2-3W range 50 ohms because - an EE explained to me - its tranny produces a higher effective output impedance.


----------



## navii

Yah the WA7 is a sexy beast too. Ive had a WA6 which was impressive. Its just that something about japanese things that gets me going 
   
  Ill have to wait and see further details on the WA7 and when Jack plans to release it.
   
  edit: i also like being a little unconvetional so that amp really appeals to me.
  Quote: 





grokit said:


> Have you considered the new Woo WA7? It has a built in DAC, and is less expensive with the introductory price. Aesthetically it's another beautiful (in a different way) two-tube amp and comes in silver or black. And it's a headphone amp, made in the USA.


----------



## RedBull

Thanks aidee. I thought without knowing the voltage we cant calculate just like that.
I remember when I calculate with or without knowing the V, I get different result, because most amps are constant V and not constant current, but I will check my calculation again.

Btw, I think both lcd2 and 3 are 50 ohms.


----------



## Argo Duck

Redbull - I could easily be wrong! 
   
  You are right - LCD2 *rev 1* and LCD3 are 50 ohms; but IIRC LCD2 rev 2 is 60.


----------



## grokit

I just went with 60 ohms because I was crunching the numbers in my head and felt that was close enough. 

I didn't realize the rev.2 was actually 60 ohms though, that's interesting as I have felt for awhile now that the rev.1 is closer to the LCD3 than the rev.2 is signature-wise. Just from reading impressions over the years though, I have had had two rev.1s and have heard no other Audeze.


----------



## RedBull

I too, never realized that R2 is actually 60 ohms and lesser efficiencies. No wonder R2 is reported as harder to drive than R1.


----------



## Chris_Himself

I have an NFB-12 right now and I keep getting told by Scootermafia (DHC Cables) that it's holding my setup way back...
   
  How true is this statement considering I'm not super blown-away by them as it is? The DAC section on the NFB-12 should be good enough though right?
   
  Keep in mind I'm pretty stingy so INB4 Violectric V200 lol.


----------



## janvaljan

Does anyone has an idea of the match of "stello" dac vs "v200"? With lcd2v2 of course thanks


----------



## Napkin

Just got a fine pair of Rev. 1's and I'm awaiting my Burson HA-160D, let's hope I enjoy it. Just sold my MF X-Can V8 (only reference so far).


----------



## LugBug1

Quote: 





napkin said:


> Just got a fine pair of Rev. 1's and I'm awaiting my Burson HA-160D, let's hope I enjoy it. Just sold my MF X-Can V8 (only reference so far).


 
  Did you try the LCD's with the MF V8? just wondered what it was like with orthos


----------



## Napkin

Quote: 





lugbug1 said:


> Did you try the LCD's with the MF V8? just wondered what it was like with orthos


 
   
  Yeah, the X-Can V8 with X-PSU V8. Waiting for my 160-D to arrive so I can tell how well the V8 performed.


----------



## grokit

I've been meaning to dig up one of my stock cables to try my rev.1 with an original Xcan/PSU. It's a little sharp up top with the HD600 so I think it could be a good match. 

It may not be the amp causing the sharpness, I'm using a Bel Canto DAC2 to complete the vintage equation so I need to check that out too.


----------



## LugBug1

Quote: 





grokit said:


> I've been meaning to dig up one of my stock cables to try my rev.1 with an original Xcan/PSU. It's a little sharp up top with the HD600 so I think it could be a good match.
> It may not be the amp causing the sharpness, I'm using a Bel Canto DAC2 to complete the vintage equation so I need to check that out too.


 
  I wish I could have kept my Xcan v3 to try with them, it was bright and had great soundstage, please share some impressions if you do thanks


----------



## korzena

I am very interested to know how to widen LCD-2's soundstage. What amp/DAC/tubes/etc?
   
  Quote: 





grokit said:


> Going from one watt or less to two watts with the LCD-2 is like going from night to day, judging from experimentation with the various power tube options in my WA22. But one you reach that power threshold the LCD-2 doesn't really ramp up with additional power. This is from trying them on my HE-6/K1000 speaker amp rig. Once you hit two watts with the LCD-2, it's all about refinement and personal sound signature preference. Once it has adequate power the LCD-2 is incredibly capable of reflecting changes in the source, the amplifier's sound signature, the quality of the recording, various cabling options, tube-rolling, etc. You can accentuate the LCD-2's signature warm sound, you can make them more neutral,* you can widen their soundstage*, or you can brighten them up by exploring these various options.


----------



## Loevhagen

Hm:


----------



## Francoy

Quote: 





korzena said:


> I am very interested to know how to widen LCD-2's soundstage. What amp/DAC/tubes/etc?


 
   
  Do what sound guys do: EQ the s--- out of them! :¬)
   
  But seriously, I use a bit of EQ to widen and deepen the stage on my LCD-2s - although that’s probably heresy around here... I have a bit of DJ experience in me and when I used to rock the dance floor, I kind of stuck to a signature, a style if you will... so the EQ was my friend. That’s why I have the equipment (which is very affordable by the way) on hand but since you mention on your profile that you are using a computer, there a lot of good software EQs you can try and see (or should I say hear) if you can achieve a wider/deeper stage that would appeal to you.
   
  Now if you will excuse me, I will go and make sure my fire extinguisher is still in working order ;¬)


----------



## korzena

It's a shame, I like almost everything about LCD2, but the soundstage. Maybe I will have to try this EQ-ing, but first I am going to upgrade my source and change the tubes in my Lyr. I believe it might a bit, but I don't expect the soundstage to be big enough after the change. So EQing might be the only solution to really enjoy some spacious electronic music or soundtracks like Tron or Dark Knight.
   
  By the way, *what are the biggest disadvantages of using software EQ or software DSP features like crossfeed (e.g. increased spatialization)?*
   
  Quote: 





francoy said:


> Do what sound guys do: EQ the s--- out of them! :¬)
> 
> But seriously, I use a bit of EQ to widen and deepen the stage on my LCD-2s - although that’s probably heresy around here... I have a bit of DJ experience in me and when I used to rock the dance floor, I kind of stuck to a signature, a style if you will... so the EQ was my friend. That’s why I have the equipment (which is very affordable by the way) on hand but since you mention on your profile that you are using a computer, there a lot of good software EQs you can try and see (or should I say hear) if you can achieve a wider/deeper stage that would appeal to you.
> 
> Now if you will excuse me, I will go and make sure my fire extinguisher is still in working order ;¬)


----------



## majkel

I visited the LCD-2 in recent weeks and felt no soundstage width limitation. The soundstage depth is very good, indeed. We should verify whether it's a headphone issue or something else.


----------



## korzena

Quote: 





majkel said:


> I visited the LCD-2 in recent weeks and felt no soundstage width limitation. The soundstage depth is very good, indeed. We should verify whether it's a headphone issue or something else.


 
  Majkel, I don't think it is this specific headphone issue as there are more people who agree LCD2 doesn't have big soundstage width (depth is OK). You can check out this thread, too: http://www.head-fi.org/t/509710/audeze-lcd-2-appreciation-thread/645#post_8814887.
  Also Tyll Hertsens from innerfidelity told me (on another forum) that "this is the nature of the beast" when asked about the LCD2 soundstage width issue.
   
  Have you tested the LCD-2 with your own production (Sonic Pearl) or another amp?
  We can meet some day and make the comparison with my Lyr. Just let me get the right tubes for it first. I might also get Bifrost in the meantime as I don't have a proper source at the moment.


----------



## longbowbbs

Quote: 





korzena said:


> By the way, *what are the biggest disadvantages of using software EQ or software DSP features like crossfeed (e.g. increased spatialization)?*


 
   
  IMO, the biggest disadvantage is listening to other opinions about YOUR sound preferences. If you use either software or hardware EQ's and you are satisfied then it is the correct choice....for you.  Some opinions will claim any EQ is bad and then use another means to achieve their preferred sound. (Amp switching, DAC switching, tube rolling, etc.)
   
  Friends are gone, lights are out, music is on and you are happy....That is the point.....


----------



## majkel

korzena said:


> Have you tested the LCD-2 with your own production (Sonic Pearl) or another amp?



Yes, I have, and then both went for review to another guy (whom we both know at least online). 





> We can meet some day and make the comparison with my Lyr. Just let me get the right tubes for it first. I might also get Bifrost in the meantime as I don't have a proper source at the moment.


There is no hurry but sure I'm interested in such comparison. I have a DAC good enough to pair with your converter in case you don't buy one soon.


----------



## korzena

Quote: 





longbowbbs said:


> IMO, the biggest disadvantage is listening to other opinions about YOUR sound preferences. If you use either software or hardware EQ's and you are satisfied then it is the correct choice....for you.  Some opinions will claim any EQ is bad and then use another means to achieve their preferred sound. (Amp switching, DAC switching, tube rolling, etc.)
> 
> Friends are gone, lights are out, music is on and you are happy....That is the point.....


 

 That's a wise advice. Thank you!
   
  Still, it's sometimes good to ask others to make a 'reality-check' for yourself...or maybe not...


----------



## korzena

Quote: 





majkel said:


> Yes, I have, and then both went for review to another guy (whom we both know at least online). There is no hurry but sure I'm interested in such comparison. I have a DAC good enough to pair with your converter in case you don't buy one soon.


 

 Cool! Will be in touch.


----------



## palchiu

Quote: 





korzena said:


> It's a shame, I like almost everything about LCD2, but the soundstage. Maybe I will have to try this EQ-ing, but first I am going to upgrade my source and change the tubes in my Lyr. I believe it might a bit, but I don't expect the soundstage to be big enough after the change. So EQing might be the only solution to really enjoy some spacious electronic music or soundtracks like Tron or Dark Knight.
> 
> By the way, *what are the biggest disadvantages of using software EQ or software DSP features like crossfeed (e.g. increased spatialization)?*


 
   
  Did you try some boutique/HiFi cables? Sometimes they works.


----------



## korzena

Quote: 





palchiu said:


> Did you try some boutique/HiFi cables? Sometimes they works.


 

 I haven't. However I think that even if they would provide some improvement it won't be sufficient anyway.


----------



## Francoy

longbowbbs said:


> IMO, the biggest disadvantage is listening to other opinions about YOUR sound preferences. If you use either software or hardware EQ's and you are satisfied then it is the correct choice....for you.  Some opinions will claim any EQ is bad and then use another means to achieve their preferred sound. (Amp switching, DAC switching, tube rolling, etc.)
> 
> Friends are gone, lights are out, music is on and you are happy....That is the point.....




(I feel like hugging you)

But to me, the main problem is that you can over-focus on the EQing part of your music appreciation sessions and forget about simply enjoying the various sounds coming in your ears. So in my mind, it needs to be used parcimoniously (is that a word? If not I claim the rights to it


----------



## longbowbbs

EQ, Tubes, Caps, Amps, DAC's.....No end to tweaking. Heck that is part of the fun at times. However, sometimes you need to step away from the adjustments and listen to good music. Life is busy almost all the time. Music is a refuge. Glad we have one!


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





longbowbbs said:


> EQ, Tubes, Caps, Amps, DAC's.....No end to tweaking. Heck that is part of the fun at times. However, sometimes you need to step away from the adjustments and listen to good music. Life is busy almost all the time. Music is a refuge. Glad we have one!


 
  Oh Testify, Brotha!


----------



## lonecloud

Hi Everybody,
  I am a newbie and need a little help. I recently purchased a LCD2.2 after reading the praise that the forumites/experts/reviewers have showered upon it. It is indeed a terrific peice of gear and i really like the sound signature. I also listened to various DAC/Amp combinations but couldn't make up my mind except that I will go for SS and not tubes. (Why? .... Dunno ... probably the form factor, suits my lifestyle, ease of use, no hassles with tubes, less noise, my music taste - rock/pop/country/occasional classical.......etc)
  Anyway, so along with the LCD2.2 I bought a Yulong D100 Mk2 just to start off (again, I chose the D100 after reading some of the good things written about it in the forums). The idea behind purchasing the D100 is to start enjoying my music with this while I keep searching for better alternatives. I presumed that at that price i can't go wrong .....and later, if and when I upgrade, I can still use the D100 as a "portable" DAC+Amp to carry around the house (listen to my music sitting at the balcony and watching the sunset, or set up camp in the attic when my daughter and his friends are having a sleepover). Now guys,  I must say that I am really surprised at the great performance of the D100.
   
  Now that you know the background, here are my questions:
  1) I am pondering if I can use the D100 as a DAC and get myself a Meier Corda Classic for an amp. Is that crazy or is it a workable idea? Will it substantially enhance what I am hearing now or should I just continue with the YulongD100? (I heard the Corda Classic and liked it, but the shop was using a Calyx 24/192 DAC with it and not the Yulong. Personally, I was not wowed with the 2000USD Calyx because I couldn't really distinguish any substantial improvement in SQ over the 500USD Yulong. Probably my ears are not trained yet to tell the subtle nuances............but I'm learning.)
  2) If the D100 plus Corda Classic idea is OK to go ahead with - then what about getting the Corda Concerto? From the specs both looks the same with the Classic having marginally more power. The reason to ask this question is obviously because the Concerto (500USD) is now cheaper than its  successor Classic (800USD). Anybody has any input on the performance of the Concerto compared to the Classic?
   
  I want the sound signature of the LCD2 to remain unchanged.
   
  Any help will be highly appreciated


----------



## grokit

korzena said:


> I am very interested to know how to widen LCD-2's soundstage. What amp/DAC/tubes/etc?




I have had the most success with my Woo Audio WA22 with 7236 power tubes, Shuguang Treasure CV181 drivers, and either a Sophia Princess 274B or a USAF 596 rectifier. And a balanced source along with balanced headphone cable. I was using a Matrix Mini-i, now a Schiit Gungnir.


----------



## Argo Duck

Welcome to head-fi. It is customary to add "sorry for your wallet"!
   
  I'm not familiar with the Yulong. However, I can comment on the Meier Concerto and Classic amps with LCD2. Most recently I have used them with Eastern Electric, Meier and Schiit (Bifrost) DACs.
   
  I rate both amps as very good. However, they sound quite different to my ears.
   
  The Concerto has great 'attack' or 'speed', most easily noticed with sudden, sharp, loud sounds. Examples are the forceful, fast strum of a guitar or plucking a string. They come over with sharp, clearly defined edges. Against this, the Concerto is 'dry'. Notes decay more quickly than I think is natural. Harmonics, resonance and reverberation similarly decay fast. On the plus side this gives the Concerto considerable clarity. Changing instrumental textures separate well. It's an analytical and detailed, yet still musical amp with the LCD2.
   
  The Classic has softer attack and natural decay. Notes 'hang' (fade gradually and normally) as they should. Bass seems more present, yet still balanced, lending instruments more 'body' than the Concerto. Soundstage - not something I normally notice with headphones - is very good, well extended in width and somewhat so in depth, with well-focused images (you can sense the 'location' and space of each instrument and its space well).
   
  As you have heard the Classic, this may give you some idea of the Concerto's sound - although I must warn you your ears and brain may hear quite differently from mine. If you don't relate to my description of the Classic, it would be wise to ignore my comments about Concerto!!
   
  Btw, the Classic is more apparently powerful than its 3dB or so power advantage over the Concerto suggests. This is, or may be, because of higher gain and differences in Jan Meier's implementation of his ingenious volume control.
   
  Finally, whether these or any other amp will "substantially enhance what [you are] hearing now" depends how your listening and tastes develop. Equipment changes what we like (we tend to favor tracks that sound better with our equipment, for example!); and to some degree what we eventually come to miss.
   
  All this is for you to find out for yourself, generally an interesting and rewarding experience.
  Quote: 





lonecloud said:


> Now that you know the background, here are my questions:
> 
> 2) If the D100 plus Corda Classic idea is OK to go ahead with - then what about getting the Corda Concerto? From the specs both looks the same with the Classic having marginally more power. The reason to ask this question is obviously because the Concerto (500USD) is now cheaper than its  successor Classic (800USD). Anybody has any input on the performance of the Concerto compared to the Classic?
> 
> ...


----------



## lonecloud

Thanks a lot, Aidee, for your response. Thanks for taking the time out to describe the characteristics of the 2 in such great "picturesque" detail. Wow ! 
  I agree with your description of the Classic's sound-character. I felt it to be exactly how you described - ofcourse you explained it in a far far better way than I ever could. My inexperience with good amps did not let me understand well the finer nuances of tonal decay as you described .......I am training my ears 
  However, I remember what really struck me while listening to the Classic was the depth and width of the sound stage (as you described) and the naturalness of the music (perhaps this is what you  explained).
   
  (And finally .... the last couple of sentences in your response would surely be a guiding light in my head-fi journey) "Equipment changes what we like - and to some degree what we come to miss" .... WOW....  deep ...philosophical...enlightening
   
  Thanks again.


----------



## DrOctagon

After scrounging enough together to finally take the plunge on the Audeze LCD-2, I'm now slightly skeptical of the amp I'll be pairing them with.  I've been happy with a HeadAmp GS-1 for many years now, but it outputs 1W, where from what I gather it takes 2W to get the LCD-2 to sound as they should...  Will the GS-1 suffice, or should I hold off on my LCD-2 purchase until I can afford another amp (comparable in quality...LOVE my GS-1...) that outputs more power?


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





droctagon said:


> After scrounging enough together to finally take the plunge on the Audeze LCD-2, I'm now slightly skeptical of the amp I'll be pairing them with.  I've been happy with a HeadAmp GS-1 for many years now, but it outputs 1W, where from what I gather it takes 2W to get the LCD-2 to sound as they should...  Will the GS-1 suffice, or should I hold off on my LCD-2 purchase until I can afford another amp (comparable in quality...LOVE my GS-1...) that outputs more power?


 
  GS-1 is fine. Have you thought about upgrading to the new modules?


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





droctagon said:


> After scrounging enough together to finally take the plunge on the Audeze LCD-2, I'm now slightly skeptical of the amp I'll be pairing them with.  I've been happy with a HeadAmp GS-1 for many years now, but it outputs 1W, where from what I gather it takes 2W to get the LCD-2 to sound as they should...  Will the GS-1 suffice, or should I hold off on my LCD-2 purchase until I can afford another amp (comparable in quality...LOVE my GS-1...) that outputs more power?


 
   
   
  Yeah - the current GS-1 is just fine.  However, there have been a few new amps that has come out recently with more power.  The BHA-1, the Soloist, and the Mjolnir.  Also the new GS-1 modules are available as well.  You have a lot to choose from.


----------



## buson160man

Quote: 





droctagon said:


> After scrounging enough together to finally take the plunge on the Audeze LCD-2, I'm now slightly skeptical of the amp I'll be pairing them with.  I've been happy with a HeadAmp GS-1 for many years now, but it outputs 1W, where from what I gather it takes 2W to get the LCD-2 to sound as they should...  Will the GS-1 suffice, or should I hold off on my LCD-2 purchase until I can afford another amp (comparable in quality...LOVE my GS-1...) that outputs more power?


 
  I have lcd-2 v2s and I have heard the bryston BHA-1 balanced amp but only in single ended fashion at one of the local audio salons in my area.I listened for about two hours with cds that I brought with me and I have to say that I liked what I heard.The lcd-2 tends to sound a little warm in general with any of the amps I have heard them with, but the bryston really tightens them up and makes them sound more neutral in general ( keep in mind I heard them in only single-ended fashion ). I also have to comment about the brystons bass it was just spectacular with the lcd-2 tremendously powerful and the sound had much greater dynamics than I have ever heard with my lcd-2 before.Of course I have only heard the lcd-2s with my burson ha-160 and ray samuels otl raptor headphone amps.But the burson does work pretty well with them.
   The new burson soolist might be a good option though I have not heard it. It apparently has a simllar balance to the ha-160 in sound quality but because of the steamlined circuit path with less components it has better sound from what I have read on head-fi.Of course the power is at least double that of my ha-160 amp which can not hurt.The burson is also priced less than a thousand dollars if the budget is limited.
   You may want to check it out.
   But the bryston may sound a lot better in balanced mode and would have much more substantial drive than what I heard in single-ended fashion.The only experience I have had with headphones driven in balanced fashion was with a stax electostatic 4040 setup that I used to own with a theta pro basic lll dac that I used with it in balanced fashion on the stax tube amp I was using.The sound was a lot more dramatic sounding in balanced drive on that set-up which was my preferred choice at the time.
    So you may want to check out the bryston balanced amp if you can audition it somewhere.Bryston is a canadian company.


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





buson160man said:


> I have lcd-2 v2s and I have heard the bryston BHA-1 balanced amp but only in single ended fashion at one of the local audio salons in my area.I listened for about two hours with cds that I brought with me and I have to say that I liked what I heard.The lcd-2 tends to sound a little warm in general with any of the amps I have heard them with, but the bryston really tightens them up and makes them sound more neutral in general ( keep in mind I heard them in only single-ended fashion ). I also have to comment about the brystons bass it was just spectacular with the lcd-2 tremendously powerful and the sound had much greater dynamics than I have ever heard with my lcd-2 before.Of course I have only heard the lcd-2s with my burson ha-160 and ray samuels otl raptor headphone amps.But the burson does work pretty well with them.
> The new burson soolist might be a good option though I have not heard it. It apparently has a simllar balance to the ha-160 in sound quality but because of the steamlined circuit path with less components it has better sound from what I have read on head-fi.Of course the power is at least double that of my ha-160 amp which can not hurt.The burson is also priced less than a thousand dollars if the budget is limited.


 
   
   
  I totally agree with your finding on the LCD-2 / BHA-1 combo.  However, IMO the SE output sucks compared to the balanced ouput.  Wait until you hear the LCD-2s with the balanced output - oh boy..


----------



## Lappy27

Quote: 





preproman said:


> I totally agree with your finding on the LCD-2 / BHA-1 combo.  However, IMO the SE output sucks compared to the balanced ouput.  Wait until you hear the LCD-2s with the balanced output - oh boy..


 
  X2.
   
  I have my BHA-1 paired with my LCD-2r2 in balanced mode since june. Simply WOW!
   
  Even after five months I am still awe with this level of performance and synergy. And so are the few peoples with high-end headphone kit experience who listened to this pairing.
   
  And for the single-ended vs balanced output...absolutly no comparaison. Buson 160 man, If you liked alot what you heard in SE, prepare yourself to be litterally blown away in balanced. NO JOKE.


----------



## DrOctagon

Unfortunately auditioning equipment is pretty much impossible where I come from.  I'm already buying the LCD-2 sight unseen (or unheard, rather).  It's nice to know this hobby hasn't stopped growing and evolving, but I've been pretty happy with my Stello DA100 > GS-1 > HD650 combo for years now.  I've recently gotten the urge to get back in the game and am looking to upgrade my setup, and the LCD-2 look to be right up my alley in terms of supplying the sonic signature I'm after.
   
  That BHA-1 looks/sounds mighty tempting, but should I go down the balanced route I'd no doubt want/need to upgrade my DAC too (?).  Too much moneys at this point, sadly (barely enough for the LCD-2 and a portable rig I'm planning on putting together, as is, though I COULD perhaps scrap the portable idea and stretch my budget.  Though a new amp/dac/cabling seems to be pushing it for me, currently.  Plus I'd like to upgrade, not side-step, from my current setup, which doesn't seem feasible, financially, right now).
   
  I'm hopeful about the new GS-1 modules, but I wonder how much improvement will be seen given they're optimized for the larger power supplies the housed in the new GS-X.  If anything, given how much I love my GS-1 it'd be the GS-X I'd love to save up for one day...
   
  Anyway, just to clarify, you fellas are pretty confident in the GS-1 / LCD-2 pairing?


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





droctagon said:


> you fellas are pretty confident in the GS-1 / LCD-2 pairing?


 
   
  Yes,
   
  Very confident.  That is a good pairing as well, very good.  You have nothing to worry about.  It may be even better with the new modules - more power to the LCD-2.2s is a good thing.  I loved the GS-1 when I had it.  Now waiting the new GS-X - can't wait.


----------



## justin w.

Quote: 





droctagon said:


> Unfortunately auditioning equipment is pretty much impossible where I come from.  I'm already buying the LCD-2 sight unseen (or unheard, rather).  It's nice to know this hobby hasn't stopped growing and evolving, but I've been pretty happy with my Stello DA100 > GS-1 > HD650 combo for years now.  I've recently gotten the urge to get back in the game and am looking to upgrade my setup, and the LCD-2 look to be right up my alley in terms of supplying the sonic signature I'm after.
> 
> That BHA-1 looks/sounds mighty tempting, but should I go down the balanced route I'd no doubt want/need to upgrade my DAC too (?).  Too much moneys at this point, sadly (barely enough for the LCD-2 and a portable rig I'm planning on putting together, as is, though I COULD perhaps scrap the portable idea and stretch my budget.  Though a new amp/dac/cabling seems to be pushing it for me, currently.  Plus I'd like to upgrade, not side-step, from my current setup, which doesn't seem feasible, financially, right now).
> 
> ...


 
   
  I use it, holding on to the last GS-1 w/ the upgraded modules (with the LCD-3) and it works very well.


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





justin w. said:


> I use it, holding on to the last GS-1 w/ the upgraded modules (with the LCD-3) and it works very well.


 
   
  Yep...you can add me to the mix that really enjoy the GS-1 with the LCD-3s:
   
http://www.head-fi.org/t/592999/headamp-gs-1-a-forgotten-treasure


----------



## tamleo

Hi,
  Did anyone here own or heard both the Schiit Lyr and ALO Pan Am? I really need a comparison between the two
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.
  Thanks


----------



## DamageInc77

Quote: 





tamleo said:


> Hi,
> Did anyone here own or heard both the Schiit Lyr and ALO Pan Am? I really need a comparison between the two
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
   
   
  I've heard them both.
   
  I now own a Schiit Lyr.


----------



## bmichels

The battery operated DAC/AMP from RedWineAudio seems to be a very good solution...
  
 Until Today I was concerned by it's USB limited to 16/48 kHz, but....Here is the answer that Winnie from Red Wine Audio sent me about this USB bitsrate limitation.  24/192 kHz USB soon 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Very good news !


----------



## LugBug1

Quote: 





bmichels said:


> The battery operated DAC/AMP from RedWineAudio seems to be a very good solution...


 
  They look sooo good together too. I really love the Red Wine Audio design, so simple but oozes class.


----------



## YoengJyh

Try EarMax Silver Edition. Not bad.


----------



## mironathetin

yes, Earmax Silver.
  I missed this thread, otherwise I would have posted my comparsion of the Earmax silver with the Lehmann Black Cube Linear here. I picked the Lehmann mainly to check, if the earmax is underpowered. 
   
  Here is the link, just in case you are interested: 
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/635784/lcd-2-amps-earmax-silver-and-lehmann-black-cube-linear


----------



## MorbidToaster

Best I've heard is still the Liquid Fire. First time I really thought about synergy.


----------



## Ony38

I want to upgrade my amp for my LCD-2 rev2 wich I use with my Little Dot MkIV!
   
  I'm hesitating between a Violectric V200 and a second hand Decwar Zen Taboo, wich one is the best with the LCD-2 rev2?
   
  Thks


----------



## longbowbbs

Lot of love for the LCD-2 in the Taboo Forum...

http://www.head-fi.org/t/535131/review-decware-taboo-an-amazing-achievment


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





longbowbbs said:


> Lot of love for the LCD-2 in the Taboo Forum...
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/535131/review-decware-taboo-an-amazing-achievment


 
  Between the V200 and Taboo, I'd go Taboo as well.


----------



## sling5s

I had Lyr for awhile.  Now, deciding between V200 and Mjolnir.  I'm leaning toward Violectric.  I prefer warmth over neutral/bright.  Plus need an warm amp for my Magnums (Grado).


----------



## preproman

Warm V200 + Warm LCD2??  It's going to be pretty, well,    warm..


----------



## LugBug1

Quote: 





preproman said:


> Warm V200 + Warm LCD2??  It's going to be pretty, well,    warm..


 
  Yup. 2 warms don't make a bright!


----------



## sling5s

More than warm, the v200 to those who love it, seem to love it for it's musicality.  The best of tube in solid stage (minus the slow and syrupy).  There are many on head-fi who believe that LCD-2 and V200 make the best pairing.  
  Best synergy.   It seems more than any other amps for the LCD-2, to come down to Mjolnir and V200 at least now (more than Burson, Bryston, Isabella and Liquid Fire).  I know the Lyr used to be really popular.
  At least in my short research, I could really be wrong because I'm just recently again researching it after a long period of not following the amp thread.  I been using the Lyr.  Those who have followed this thread probably know better.


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





sling5s said:


> More than warm, the v200 to those who love it, love it for it's musicality.  The best of tube in solid stage (minus the slow and syrupy).  There are many on head-fi who believe that LCD-2 and V200 make the best pairing.
> Best synergy.   It seems more than any other amps for the LCD-2, it seems to come down to Mjolnir and V200.  At least in my short research.


 
   
   
  I'll say it like this.  
   
  Excuse my language I don't want to offend anyone.  
   
  The LCD-2.2 is also know as a amp slut.  Meaning she goes good with just about any amp.  Noticed I said just about.  I know for a fact that the LCD-2.2 + the BHA-1 and the GS-1 are to die for.  They also go very well with my B22 and my CK2III.  I like them less with the M^3, but that sounds good as well..  They'er also many more amps the LCD-2.2 goes really good with.


----------



## sling5s

I guess it's all matter of taste.  Everyone seems to think their amp is THE amp for the LCD-2. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  I'm just hoping to find "my amp" for my taste.


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





sling5s said:


> I guess it's all matter of taste. * Everyone seems to think their amp is THE amp for the LCD-2. *
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  Excatly my point.


----------



## RedBull

I am just afraid that
   
  warm + warm = 2*warm
   
  ?


----------



## mironathetin

I agree. That's why it is so useless to look or ask for the 'best' amp. What counts is an accurate description how an amp sounds with a headphone.
  It is also good to have a second amp to compare. In absolute terms it is so hard to describe sound. And the memory for sound is so short, too.
  Isn't it?
  
  Quote: 





sling5s said:


> I guess it's all matter of taste.  Everyone seems to think their amp is THE amp for the LCD-2.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Dutchi MerenGue

im thinking about picking up an lcd2 as an early xmas gift for me, but i only have the matrix m stage as an amp, bsg cmoy and the headphone out on my grant fidelity tubedac 11, i dont know about the last 2, but im hearing mixed things on the m stage not having the best synergy with the lcd 2
   
   
  i dont have too much money to play with once i drop the money on the lcd's, im thinking about buying an o2 amp from jds labs which i've read is a good match for the lcd 2's.
   
  can anyone point me to something better in that price range or cheaper? maybe a t amp? but then i have to worry about finding cables for them....help!


----------



## Duckman

You'll be hard pressed finding someone who has the V200/2.2 combo, and thinks it is 'too warm'. It's a great sound.


----------



## Argo Duck

^ +1
   
  I have the V100 and LCD2.1
   
  Not my favorite combination, but a good one. The V100's smooth mid-range and slight warmth is balanced with excellent extension high and low and good clarity. It sounds unstressed and well-controlled.
   
  I understand the V200 is these things and more.


----------



## Superpelic

Anyone tried the Audeze in combo with the Meier Opera, would that be a good combo? powerfull enough? thanks


----------



## Docks

O2amp if you want to hear your headphones and not an amp.


----------



## Argo Duck

Jan's Concerto and in particular Classic amps are a much better match. Opera has a 'just the  facts' sound with LCD2. Midrange is rather good, even compelling, especially if you like the stereotypical 'tube' sound.
   
  However, treble energy is a bit lacking - not necessarily a good thing as the LCD2 is either 'dark' or 'natural' depending on how important high-end detail is to you.
   
  Bass - I don't remember. It's well over a year since I last listened with this combination.
   
  Power seemed adequate. Some, including Audez'e themselves, state 2W is needed. This would drive you toward Meier Classic, Violectric, Decware Taboo, Schiit Lyr/Mjolnir and many other options with good current capability.
   
  Quote: 





superpelic said:


> Anyone tried the Audeze in combo with the Meier Opera, would that be a good combo? powerfull enough? thanks


----------



## dagothur

I've got some experience with the LCD-2/Opera combo myself.  The Opera is a bit warm and smooth, so the LCD-2 isn't quite as energetic as it could be.  Something less tubey would probably work better.


----------



## adydula

The designer of the 02 amp seemed to like the vioelectric stuff and his O2 amp is a very neutral totally transparent amp..
   
  For the cost..the O2 (i have 2 of them and LCD2's) is a real winner.....the price is really 'cheap' for what it does.
   
  There is NO issue driving the LCD's with this amp...its ALL there.
   
  You buy an O2 for less dollars and if you really dont like it...you havent dumped $1000 or so for one of the higher priced amps that might have specs no better or worse that the O2...
   
  I went thru several amps...they are all sold and the little O2's remain....
   
  Just sayin...
   
  Alex


----------



## DairyProduce

Quote: 





adydula said:


> The designer of the 02 amp seemed to like the vioelectric stuff and his O2 amp is a very neutral totally transparent amp..
> 
> For the cost..the O2 (i have 2 of them and LCD2's) is a real winner.....the price is really 'cheap' for what it does.
> 
> ...


 
  Out of curiosity. What other amps have you compared to the O2?


----------



## jsplice

Well I've been ruined.  I've had a Lyr to go with my LCD-2s for a few months now, but recently my dad was curious about it, and wanted to swap amps for a bit.  Problem is, his amp is a  Woo WA22.  To put it lightly, the Woo slaughters the Lyr (as it rightfully should, given the price).  The other problem is that to get it in the configuration that he has (with all upgraded tubes), you're looking at about $2400.  It's definitely worth the price, but is there an intermediate step here between Lyr and the WA22 that I can explore?


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





jsplice said:


> Well I've been ruined.  I've had a Lyr to go with my LCD-2s for a few months now, but recently my dad was curious about it, and wanted to swap amps for a bit.  Problem is, his amp is a  Woo WA22.  To put it lightly, the Woo slaughters the Lyr (as it rightfully should, given the price).  The other problem is that to get it in the configuration that he has (with all upgraded tubes), you're looking at about $2400.  It's definitely worth the price, but is there an intermediate step here between Lyr and the WA22 that I can explore?


 
   
   
  Does it have to be a tube amp?


----------



## adydula

Dairy Produce...
   
  Compared with Schitt Lyr, Schitt ASGARD, SOHAii, Burson HA160, Matrix M Stage, Creek, Benchmark Dac1, Several AVR headphone sections and a AVA Insight + Pre/Amp head section...which was as good as most of these....amazing to me..
   
  Alex


----------



## asmoday

Quote: 





preproman said:


> Does it have to be a tube amp?


 
   
  While I am not jsplice, I would be interested in a non tube amp. I really like tube amps, but have always said I would pay no more than $500 for one as I always have the fear of tubes drying up at some point or just becoming WAY to expensive for me to want to deal with. So now that I have the Lyr, I think I pretty much hit the end of the road for me and tube amps. 
   
  I plan on getting the LCD-2 here very soon to use in combination with my HE-500. I was leaning towards the Violectric V200 when the time comes to want a new amp, but am always curious as to what you might suggest. 
   
  Thanks,


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





asmoday said:


> While I am not jsplice, I would be interested in a non tube amp. I really like tube amps, but have always said I would pay no more than $500 for one as I always have the fear of tubes drying up at some point or just becoming WAY to expensive for me to want to deal with. So now that I have the Lyr, I think I pretty much hit the end of the road for me and tube amps.
> 
> I plan on getting the LCD-2 here very soon to use in combination with my HE-500. I was leaning towards the Violectric V200 when the time comes to want a new amp, but am always curious as to what you might suggest.
> 
> Thanks,


 
   
   
  This is just me.  But I would think the V200 would be a little to warm for both the LCD and the 500s.  I would look at the Mjolnir or the BHA-1.  IMO


----------



## asmoday

Thanks preproman. 
   
  I take it from your recommendations, you think balanced is the way to go and not single ended?


----------



## jsplice

Quote: 





preproman said:


> Does it have to be a tube amp?


 
   
  Doesn't have to be a tube amp, but I do like some tubes in the chain, hence my original purchase of the Lyr.  All I know is that the soundstaging, channel separation, treble and bass extension, everything, is phenomenal with the WA22.  The Lyr is a great amp, but I really don't think it drives the LCD-2 to anywhere near its potential.  
   
  I do own a PrimaLuna Prologue Two, and have considered going to the speaker taps, but not sure if that's a great idea...


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





jsplice said:


> Doesn't have to be a tube amp, but I do like some tubes in the chain, hence my original purchase of the Lyr.  All I know is that the soundstaging, channel separation, treble and bass extension, everything, is phenomenal with the WA22.  The Lyr is a great amp, but I really don't think it drives the LCD-2 to anywhere near its potential.
> 
> I do own a *PrimaLuna Prologue *Two, and have considered going to the speaker taps, but not sure if that's a great idea...


 
   
  WOW,
   
  I love the PrimaLuna stuff.  I take my HE-6s to the local audio store here and they let me and another head- fi'er demo all there gear.  A PrimaLuna Speaker amp (I forget the model) sound amazing off the speaker taps with the HE-6s.  That is my dream amp.. 
   
  Try it.  It's but tons better than the WA22 - I'll bet.


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





asmoday said:


> Thanks preproman.
> 
> I take it from your recommendations, you think balanced is the way to go and not single ended?


 
   
  IMO - yes.  The pros out way the cons for me.


----------



## DarknightDK

Quote: 





adydula said:


> The designer of the 02 amp seemed to like the vioelectric stuff and his O2 amp is a very neutral totally transparent amp..
> 
> For the cost..the O2 (i have 2 of them and LCD2's) is a real winner.....the price is really 'cheap' for what it does.
> 
> ...


 
   
  I have the O2 and the WA22 and I can confirm that the WA22 blows the O2 away, as it should given the price difference. While the O2 is a steal for its price, it cannot compete with certain higher end amps.


----------



## jsplice

Quote: 





preproman said:


> WOW,
> 
> I love the PrimaLuna stuff.  I take my HE-6s to the local audio store here and they let me and another head- fi'er demo all there gear.  A PrimaLuna Speaker amp (I forget the model) sound amazing off the speaker taps with the HE-6s.  That is my dream amp..
> 
> Try it.  It's but tons better than the WA22 - I'll bet.


 
  You're convincing me.  Question is, do I have to buy the $100 Hifiman adapter to get my LCD-2s plugged into the speaker taps of the PrimaLuna?  If I do go that route, I'll also have to buy a balanced cable. I'm trying to find the cheapest initial route just to see if the sound is a good match for the LCD-2.


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





jsplice said:


> You're convincing me.  Question is, do I have to buy the $100 Hifiman adapter to get my LCD-2s plugged into the speaker taps of the PrimaLuna?  If I do go that route, I'll also have to buy a balanced cable. I'm trying to find the cheapest initial route just to see if the sound is a good match for the LCD-2.


 
   
   
  How many watts is your amp?  Not many I'd bet.  
   
  This is the cheap route.  This one has a 4-pin XLR at the end.  You can get it with a SE connector at the end instead.


----------



## jsplice

Quote: 





preproman said:


> How many watts is your amp?  Not many I'd bet.
> 
> This is the cheap route.  This one has a 4-pin XLR at the end.  You can get it with a SE connector at the end instead.


 
   
  The PrimaLuna Prologue Two puts out 40w x 2.  This is using Gold Lion KT88 power tubes.  Would that be too many watts to run straight into the LCD-2?  It's probably fine for the HE-6, but the LCD-2 are more sensitive.
   
  And where did you get that cable?  Did you make it?
   
  Wait a minute, that won't work for me.  I'd have to have LCD-2 connectors at one end, and speaker connectors at the other.


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





jsplice said:


> The PrimaLuna Prologue Two puts out 40w x 2.  This is using Gold Lion KT88 power tubes.  Would that be too many watts to run straight into the LCD-2?  It's probably fine for the HE-6, but the LCD-2 are more sensitive.
> 
> And where did you get that cable?  Did you make it?
> 
> Wait a minute, that won't work for me.  I'd have to have LCD-2 connectors at one end, and speaker connectors at the other.


 
   
   
  It's not to much.  The LCD-2.2 is rated at 60 ohms.  The amp is 40 watts into 8 ohms.  So how many watts is the amp into 60 ohms is the question.    I put my LCD-2.2s on my 200wpc @8 ohms  mono blocks.  I just didn't have any volume control available.  It was either to loud or to low.  The cable will work.  You already have a cable on the LCD's right?  The other end that you put in the amp - is where you would put in this adapter.  Either SE or XLR.  It works..
   
  The best prices going right now to get that cable made is Brian.  http://www.btg-audio.com/
   
  Is this it?


----------



## jsplice

Quote: 





preproman said:


> It's not to much.  The LCD-2.2 is rated at 60 ohms.  The amp is 40 watts into 8 ohms.  So how many watts is the amp into 60 ohms is the question.    I put my LCD-2.2s on my 200wpc @8 ohms  mono blocks.  I just didn't have any volume control available.  It was either to loud or to low.  The cable will work.  You already have a cable on the LCD's right?  The other end that you put in the amp - is where you would put in this adapter.  Either SE or XLR.  It works..
> 
> The best prices going right now to get that cable made is Brian.  http://www.btg-audio.com/
> 
> Is this it?


 
   
  Yep, that's it.  I've replaced the stock KT88s with Gold Lion KT88s, which was a huge upgrade.  Also, I've replaced the 12ax7's with NOS Pope's which are absolutely incredible...going to be sad when those go bad.
   
  40 watts into 8 ohms should translate into a lower wattage going into 60 ohms.  I know nothing about these technical aspects, but I know that a lot of speaker amps have double the wattage when going from 8 ohms to 4 ohms, so I'm guessing it would work somewhat conversely.  Maybe 20 watts into 16 ohms, 10 watts into 32, 5 watts into 64 ohms.  I somehow doubt it's that linear, but might be a good estimate.  
   
  I've also heard that some people can get noise when using speaker amps with orthos.  Supposedly the Hifiman "adapter" eliminates this because of an internal resistor that is used.  So at this point, I'm not sure what the best route is here.


----------



## Argo Duck

^ Decware Taboo has zilch noise into the LCD2.
   
  Less watts than your amp though - 6W/8 ohms.
   
  Assuming near-zero output impedance, power figures can vary linearly with load impedance. Likely not a good assumption here though., e.g. does not apply to Taboo.


----------



## dan.gheorghe

I have the LCD2(rev3) plugged into Burson Conductor which has a Soloist amplifier inside. I love the combination. It is far better than my previous ha-160ds .
   
  More about my impressions :
  - link1
  - link2


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





jsplice said:


> Yep, that's it.  I've replaced the stock KT88s with Gold Lion KT88s, which was a huge upgrade.  Also, I've replaced the 12ax7's with NOS Pope's which are absolutely incredible...going to be sad when those go bad.
> 
> 40 watts into 8 ohms should translate into a lower wattage going into 60 ohms.  I know nothing about these technical aspects, but I know that a lot of speaker amps have double the wattage when going from 8 ohms to 4 ohms, so I'm guessing it would work somewhat conversely.  Maybe 20 watts into 16 ohms, 10 watts into 32, 5 watts into 64 ohms.  I somehow doubt it's that linear, but might be a good estimate.
> 
> *I've also heard that some people can get noise when using speaker amps with orthos*.  Supposedly the Hifiman "adapter" eliminates this because of an internal resistor that is used.  So at this point, I'm not sure what the best route is here.


 
   
   
   
  Never heard this and never experencied it either.  Orthos are some tuff cookies.  They love power / current.  What you have there is a very fine amp my friend.  It's worth a try and yep those calculations are about right + / - here or there.
   
  I have heard from some that the Hifiman adapter does screw up the SQ a bit.  Never tried it myself.


----------



## jsplice

Quote: 





preproman said:


> Never heard this and never experencied it either.  Orthos are some tuff cookies.  They love power / current.  What you have there is a very fine amp my friend.  It's worth a try and yep those calculations are about right + / - here or there.
> 
> I have heard from some that the Hifiman adapter does screw up the SQ a bit.  Never tried it myself.


 
  Hmm interesting.  So is it safe to run the LCD-2s directly into the speaker taps?  Why would Hifiman make an adapter with internal resistors if it was ok to just plug directly into the speaker taps?  I'm just trying to make sure I don't fry my headphones and/or amplifier.


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





jsplice said:


> Hmm interesting.  So is it safe to run the LCD-2s directly into the speaker taps?  Why would Hifiman make an adapter with internal resistors if it was ok to just plug directly into the speaker taps?  I'm just trying to make sure I don't fry my headphones and/or amplifier.


 
   
   
  I think on his site it's recommended for speakers over 150wpc.  Yours is only 40wpc.  That's a big difference..


----------



## jsplice

Quote: 





preproman said:


> I think on his site it's recommended for speakers over 150wpc.  Yours is only 40wpc.  That's a big difference..


 
  You mean speaker *amps* over 150 wpc?  I looked on the Hifiman site and couldn't find that information.  If that is true, then yea, that is a huge difference in wattage.
   
  I'm thinking of trying a Moon Audio cable that goes from Audeze connections straight to bananas.  Not sure if that's a good investment though, as it might be harder to sell down the road.  And it's also rather pricey.


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





jsplice said:


> You mean speaker *amps* over 150 wpc?  I looked on the Hifiman site and couldn't find that information.  If that is true, then yea, that is a huge difference in wattage.
> 
> I'm thinking of trying a Moon Audio cable that goes from Audeze connections straight to bananas.  Not sure if that's a good investment though, as it might be harder to sell down the road.  And it's also rather pricey.


 
   
   
  WOW that's going to cost a pretty penny.  No the most cost effective solution at all.  But, I know it will be top of the line stuff.  Brian can do that same cable as well for a lot less.  
   
  Let us know what you think.  By the way,  I just got this amp in today.  I'm going to put the LCD-2.2s on this and see how it sounds.  I'll let you know the out come later on.
   
  http://shop.emotiva.com/collections/amplifiers/products/a100


----------



## jsplice

Quote: 





preproman said:


> WOW that's going to cost a pretty penny.  No the most cost effective solution at all.  But, I know it will be top of the line stuff.  Brian can do that same cable as well for a lot less.
> 
> Let us know what you think.  By the way,  I just got this amp in today.  I'm going to put the LCD-2.2s on this and see how it sounds.  I'll let you know the out come later on.
> 
> http://shop.emotiva.com/collections/amplifiers/products/a100


 
  Yea, but I have another option from Moon Audio: an adapter that goes from female 1/4" to bananas.  Would allow me to use the stock cable, just to see how it works out.  The adapter is $95 versus $275 for a 10 foot Blue Dragon that has Audeze connections and bananas.  Only difference is using the adapter won't give me "balanced" output.  $95 is a lot easier to swallow versus $275 for something that I'm not even sure will work yet.  Then down the road I could upgrade to a real cable.
   
  Emotiva is awesome.  You and I actually talked about Emotiva stuff in a different thread a month or two ago.  I used to have their XPA-2.  I'll be curious to hear how the LCD-2.2s sound on that amp.


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





jsplice said:


> Emotiva is awesome.


 
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/629352/hifiman-he-500-on-a-speaker-amp-emotiva-mini-x-a-100-project/247#post_8907463
   
  Post # 247


----------



## Axcelon

I'm considering the following options for driving the LCD-2.1:
   
  Rega DAC --> V200
   
  V800  --> V200
   
  m903
   
  Has anyone been able to compare these three setups?  What would be the strengths and weaknesses of each?


----------



## grokit

Those options make me think of an HD800 more than an LCD2, as these are both reportedly warm-sounding amp setups.

But that V800/V200 is _one sexy stack_ :devil_face:


----------



## crossjeremiah

so I just bought Gungnir DAC, and I've trying to figure out a good combo for it for my LCD-2s. I've come up with the vioelectric v181 or the Bryston bha-1. I listen to alot of post-rock and ambient music. and some classical from time to time.  so anyone know any good amps for this type of music or the v181 or bha-1s. I'm going to make my purchase for the bha-1 tomorrow most likely


----------



## Kendoji

Quote: 





grokit said:


> Those options make me think of an HD800 more than an LCD2, as these are both reportedly warm-sounding amp setups.
> But that V800/V200 is _one sexy stack_


 
   
  Several people on these forums who really know their stuff (such as Project86) consider the V800 and V200 combo to be fantastic with the LCD2.  It's one of my front-runner options as well, for when I finally bite the bullet and get the LCD-2.


----------



## Argo Duck

^ Doesn't matter how well any of us know our stuff. It's your own ears that decide.


----------



## Kendoji

Erm, yes, of course.  But most of us here make our purchasing choices based not on our ears (as we don't have the opportunity to try stuff before we buy), but on recommendations we read on the forums.  By 'know their stuff' I mean people who have experience with many different types of equipment and who's recommendations therefore have a bit more weight.  I think most of us will, for example, value the opinion of someone like Tyll or Jude more highly than a n00b like me.


----------



## Loevhagen

I've had the Reaga DAC for quite some time and still have the V800. Have used these with V200 + LCD2R1. The Rega adds more color to the music than the V800. The Violectric sounds "cleaner" (not leaner). Eventhough the Rega is quite good, it had to go. 
  Quote: 





axcelon said:


> I'm considering the following options for driving the LCD-2.1:
> 
> Rega DAC --> V200
> 
> V800  --> V200


----------



## Argo Duck

I understand your position. I was the same. New Zealand is a country with limited listening opportunities. At the time I lurked on these forums six and seven years ago, Skylab's careful, considered reviews were very helpful to me. Project86 is also careful and considered, and "fantastic" is probably not a word one would find there. Not without YMMV warnings anyway!
   
  So, we broadly agree.
   
  What I have gained in the years since following Skylab and many other headfiers' reviews is _some_ understanding of my own listening preferences, and _some_ ability to translate carefully managed and detailed description into what I would sometimes (as much as half the time but no more) hear from the same or a similar set-up.
   
  On the flip-side, I doubt the usefulness of my own descriptions to others - _knowing our listening becomes increasingly specialized the further we go in this hobby_ - but occasionally I try anyway.
   
  Definitely not useful are good/bad impressions without any supporting detail about what the listener heard/hears. It's how the "hype train" operates on head-fi 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  As a counter-example, Loevhagen's brief description of the Rega versus V800 above is very useful to me, because of experience with Loevhagen's preferences and descriptive style. That's a second way information on head-fi can be useful.
  Quote: 





kendoji said:


> Erm, yes, of course.  But most of us here make our purchasing choices based not on our ears (as we don't have the opportunity to try stuff before we buy), but on recommendations we read on the forums.  By 'know their stuff' I mean people who have experience with many different types of equipment and who's recommendations therefore have a bit more weight.  I think most of us will, for example, value the opinion of someone like Tyll or Jude more highly than a n00b like me.


----------



## hekeli

Quote: 





argo duck said:


> _some_ ability to translate carefully managed and detailed description into what I would sometimes (as much as half the time but no more) hear from the same or a similar set-up.


 

 So actually statistically it's a meaningless coin toss? In which case a monkey could use random generator to make reviews and sometimes it would be right.


----------



## crossjeremiah

I went with bryston ill have it tomorrow ill let you guys know the details


----------



## Argo Duck

Well I guess you're talking about alpha (generalizability to a population of samples, 'truth' in one definition) whereas I only meant variance accounted for (treating my 'measurements' - listening impressions - as merely a datapoint in _one_ sample, definitely nothing more privileged).
   
  Since you raise it though, I think we're doing better but not too much better than our very worn coin!
   
  IDK, and at the risk of digressing from the topic, can we expect better from head-fi do you think?
   
  Quote: 





hekeli said:


> So actually statistically it's a meaningless coin toss? In which case a monkey could use random generator to make reviews and sometimes it would be right.


----------



## ehlarson

I am considering purchase of a Bryston BHA-1 for my LCD-2. Right now I am powering the LCD-2 from a Lavry DA10 or an Oppo BDP-105. 90% of the time I use the Lavry.
   
  I'm a solid state neutral + detail oriented kind of guy and I really like the DA10 and the Oppo because they are pretty much to my tastes. However I am suspicious that the power available from the sources I have is really not enough to maximize the potential of the LCD-2.  
   
  So what do people think? Is the BHA-1 really going make a big immediately obvious difference over the Lavry amp? Or is it going to be a small difference and perhaps just really marginal?


----------



## MorbidToaster

While I haven't heard the Lavry amp I can say that the LCD-2 responds to a quality amp very well. It's not a subtle change. I've only used the term 'night and day' twice and one of them was the first time I heard the LCD 2 on an LF.
   
  The Bryston is a good amp, though not my favorite with the HD800 I could see it doing very well with the LCD 2.
   
  Quote: 





ehlarson said:


> I am considering purchase of a Bryston BHA-1 for my LCD-2. Right now I am powering the LCD-2 from a Lavry DA10 or an Oppo BDP-105. 90% of the time I use the Lavry.
> 
> I'm a solid state neutral + detail oriented kind of guy and I really like the DA10 and the Oppo because they are pretty much to my tastes. However I am suspicious that the power available from the sources I have is really not enough to maximize the potential of the LCD-2.
> 
> So what do people think? Is the BHA-1 really going make a big immediately obvious difference over the Lavry amp? Or is it going to be a small difference and perhaps just really marginal?


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





ehlarson said:


> I am considering purchase of a Bryston BHA-1 for my LCD-2. Right now I am powering the LCD-2 from a Lavry DA10 or an Oppo BDP-105. 90% of the time I use the Lavry.
> 
> I'm a solid state neutral + detail oriented kind of guy and I really like the DA10 and the Oppo because they are pretty much to my tastes. However I am suspicious that the power available from the sources I have is really not enough to maximize the potential of the LCD-2.
> 
> So what do people think? Is the BHA-1 really going make a big immediately obvious difference over the Lavry amp? Or is it going to be a small difference and perhaps just really marginal?


 
   
  The LCD-2.2s are a perfect match with the BHA-1 and will be even more so using the DA10 as the DAC.  I've also read where the LCD-2.2 are really good with the Mjolinir as well.
   
  Price per performance will point to the MJ.


----------



## crossjeremiah

Go for bha 1 for versatility you get mini output on those.

edit:
just got bha-1 . galen audio provided free pralines with it mmm & they offered to let me try their high end power cables.. i might call them up and give it a try. this amp is miles away from my singlepower mpx3. just what i wanted. driving the headphones like a champ. i thought the headphones were ok when i got them, they seemed just a little better than my westone 4s because i was using a tube amp that diddn't have enough umph for me. It was the smoothest amp i've ever heard but i wanted more. this amp is pretty spot on according to my aggressive life style. and blows all my iems out of the water


----------



## DeadEars

Yesterday I visited my bud's house.  He's a Bryston fan-boy, has Magneplanars (as do I, but his are bigger 3.7's) powered by Bryston 7B-SST amps, plus the BDA DAC and most recently the BDP-1 music player + the Bryston headphone amp.  I'm more of a tube guy, and generally find the Bryston's strong and clean and perhaps a bit on the bright side of things for my taste.
   
  Anyway, I brought along my Audeze LCD-2.1 headphones for a listen and I was extremely thrilled with their performance on the Bryston BHA-1 headphone amp.  Much deeper and richer bass than my poor little tube amps produce, and a lot more air and soundstage on top.  Strongly recommended for an audition.  I was worried about loss of musicality, but the tone and timbre were nicely produced for the two string quartets and the various female vocalists (Vienna Teng, Rachael Yamagata & Heather Nova) we listened to.
   
  Per the above discussion about coin flips and internet BS, you should never buy on a recommendation like this, but definitely try to audition!


----------



## Lappy27

I have the BHA-1 with the LCD-2r2 and a W4S DAC-2 since 6 months. Absolutly spectacular set-up! Musical, full-bodied and with lots of resolution. Can't go wrong with the BHA-1 - LCD-2r2 match-up. It's like the components were designed to work togheter.
   
  I had the chance to compare to the Mjolnir once. Clear win for the Bryston. Last week, I compared the LCD-2r2 and the LCD-3 on the Bryston. Still prefer the LCD-2r2. I choose dark (but still highly detailed and resolved) fun over ultimate accuracy.
   
  Steve


----------



## ehlarson

Opinions seem pretty lopsided on this one. Five coin flips coming up heads. I think I'll give it a try. What's to lose except maybe return shipping?


----------



## crossjeremiah

i've done extensive research from scouring all the threads for anything bha-1 related or mjolnir. apparently dallas headfi meet did a survey on the mjolnir vs the bryston . bryston won performance wise but mjolnir won price value for how much it cost. i wanted versatility as in i wanted the single ended output as well as the xlr out put


----------



## ehlarson

When you start thinking about recabling 3 or 4 headphones for a balanced only amp that can add up to significant money too.


----------



## YtseJamer

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *Lappy27* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> I compared the LCD-2r2 and the LCD-3 on the Bryston. Still prefer the LCD-2r2. I choose dark (but still highly detailed and resolved) fun over ultimate accuracy.


 
   
  I also prefer the LCD-2 Rev.2 versus the LCD-3.
   
  I'd be curious to compare the Mjolnir and the Bryston eventually.  I should receive the Mjolnir next week.


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





ehlarson said:


> When you start thinking about recabling 3 or 4 headphones for a balanced only amp that can add up to significant money too.


 
   
  Tell me about it.  All my amps are balanced.  So all of my headphones got re cabled to balanced


----------



## Lappy27

Quote: 





ytsejamer said:


> I also prefer the LCD-2 Rev.2 versus the LCD-3.
> 
> I'd be curious to compare the Mjolnir and the Bryston eventually.  I should receive the Mjolnir next week.


 
  Let me know when your Mjolnir will have at least 100 hundred hours of burn-in, maybe we can plan a meet to compare the two if you're interested. I am from Montreal too.
   
  Steve


----------



## YtseJamer

Quote: 





lappy27 said:


> Let me know when your Mjolnir will have at least 100 hundred hours of burn-in, maybe we can plan a meet to compare the two if you're interested. I am from Montreal too.
> 
> Steve


 
   
  Very good idea 
   
  Maybe after the holidays ?


----------



## Axcelon

Quote: 





loevhagen said:


> I've had the Reaga DAC for quite some time and still have the V800. Have used these with V200 + LCD2R1. The Rega adds more color to the music than the V800. The Violectric sounds "cleaner" (not leaner). Eventhough the Rega is quite good, it had to go.


 

 Thanks Loevhagen --- that's exactly the type of information I'm looking for!


----------



## technica18

I posted this in the LCD-2 thread but I thought I'd post it here as well since it's amp related. I've had the LCD-2 for the past week and I've been listening to them with my Lyr + Bifrost. The mids are great and the highs are smooth but there is just a general lack of body and meatiness in the lower end and more specifically the mid bass which makes them sound kind of flat. The bass is absolutely one of the best I've heard in terms of quality, articulation, and texture but there is just not enough of it to give me that full bodied grunt. Will a more powerful amp like the Mjolnir make a difference in this respect? I'm using the stock GE tubes in the Lyr.


----------



## dan.gheorghe

Quote: 





technica18 said:


> I posted this in the LCD-2 thread but I thought I'd post it here as well since it's amp related. I've had the LCD-2 for the past week and I've been listening to them with my Lyr + Bifrost. The mids are great and the highs are smooth but there is just a general lack of body and meatiness in the lower end and more specifically the mid bass which makes them sound kind of flat. The bass is absolutely one of the best I've heard in terms of quality, articulation, and texture but there is just not enough of it to give me that full bodied grunt. Will a more powerful amp like the Mjolnir make a difference in this respect? I'm using the stock GE tubes in the Lyr.


 
   
  Keep in mind that the power isn't everything. I have the Burson Conductor which is based on Soloist amp (gives 1.28 W/channel on 50 ohms) , and it is great! I feel the lcd2s are driven very well.


----------



## adydula

I had the Schiit ASGARD and the Schiit LYR...both good amps...the LYR with 6 watts.....and I have a 'lowly' Objective 2 amp and it has NO issue driving my LCD2's...none, zip, zero, nada....
   
  Alex


----------



## sling5s

Having had the asgard and lyr and objective 2, I believe the schiit asgard and the lyr(while the lyr has much more power nevertheless) are both budget amps or at least sound like them; which is why the objective 2 compares well with them or more favorably.  But when you get to the more high end amps like the Violectric V200 or even the Cavalli Liquid Fire, I think the objective 2 loses it's appeal really fast, as it did for me.  It's a really good budget amp for the lcd-2, but the lcd-2 does need more to shine in my opinion.


----------



## adydula

The vioelectric 200 is an excellent amp for sure, even the O2 designer has said as much....but its not worth the MUCH higher cost to me and it doesnt sound any better to me.
   
  Its your money....and technically the O2 drives the LCD2's to it fullest potential...do the math,,
   
  All the best
  Alex


----------



## MorbidToaster

I'd really like to compare more amps for the LCD 2 with the LF. I haven't really heard anything that outdoes it yet. The most noticeable improvement over other amps is the bass. 
   
  Quote: 





sling5s said:


> Having had the asgard and lyr and objective 2, I believe the schiit asgard and the lyr(while the lyr has much more power nevertheless) are both budget amps or at least sound like them; which is why the objective 2 compares well with them or more favorably.  But when you get to the more high end amps like the Violectric V200 or even the Cavalli Liquid Fire, I think the objective 2 loses it's appeal really fast, as it did for me.  It's a really good budget amp for the lcd-2, but the lcd-2 does need more to shine in my opinion.


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> I'd really like to compare more amps for the LCD 2 with the LF. I haven't really heard anything that outdoes it yet. The most noticeable improvement over other amps is the bass.


 
  Have you tried the likes of ECBA or EC Super 7? Hands down the GS-X was 
  much better to my ears than the LF. But then again, I am one of the few that wasn't impressed 
  by it. Although, I never did get around to hearing with quad of Siemens.


----------



## hekeli

Quote: 





adydula said:


> The vioelectric 200 is an excellent amp for sure, even the O2 designer has said as much....but its not worth the MUCH higher cost to me and it doesnt sound any better to me.
> 
> Its your money....and technically the O2 drives the LCD2's to it fullest potential...do the math,,
> 
> ...


 

 Agreed, I've had O2, Lake People G109, Violectric V200. All sound the same to me. I kept G109 for the headroom and mainly ergonomics.


----------



## RedBull

Has anyone has impression Lehmann BCL againts V200?
  I really like to try V200 but I need some comparison to the sound that I am familiar to start with.
  Any short impression welcome.


----------



## sling5s

V200 made me love the LCD-2 (so musical), the O2 made even the LCD-2 sound unmusical and that's hard to do. But hey, it's all matter or ear and preference.
  So it's all good. It's why we choose what we choose and pay what we pay.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  Quote: 





adydula said:


> The vioelectric 200 is an excellent amp for sure, even the O2 designer has said as much....but its not worth the MUCH higher cost to me and it doesnt sound any better to me.
> 
> Its your money....and technically the O2 drives the LCD2's to it fullest potential...do the math,,
> 
> ...


----------



## adydula

sling5s,
   
  Agree with you...gets down to what your ear likes etc...
   
  Lately if you havent been there go to HDTracks site and download there "new' HD sampler....some 14 songs or so....i dont necessairly believe in HD stuff etc compared to
  the normal cd 44.1/16 bit but the stuff in this FREE download is downright amazing.....i discovered new artists that just blow me away...your LCD2s and V200 will really like this stuff!!
   
  All the Best
  Alex


----------



## sling5s

thanks alex. will try  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  Quote: 





adydula said:


> sling5s,
> 
> Agree with you...gets down to what your ear likes etc...
> 
> ...


----------



## LiuTim

Try RKV MK2. Powerful with the LCD2. Nice!


----------



## jsplice

Alright I finally have my HE-Adapter and stock balanced cable from Audeze.  Been using them with my PrimaLuna Prologue Two for a few days now.  My first impressions are somewhat mixed.  I still have my Lyr on hand to compare to, but I've been trying to listen to only the PrimaLuna to get an overall feel.  I also have my memory of how the WA22 sounded (which left a very good lasting impression).  
   
  Some initial things I've noticed about the PrimaLuna and LCD-2.2 combo: midrange is the main strength here.  It sounds extremely layered, "thick", "lush", and "layered".  The spatial information that's contained within the midrange comes through very well, and gives the soundstage a very expansive, full sound.  Depth and width is very good, along with instrument separation.  Instrument timbres are very good as well.
   
  However, transient impact leaves a bit to be desired.  Also, bass impact and extension doesn't quite match the Lyr, and definitely not the WA22.  Treble extension I'd say is darn near close to what I'd describe as "mediocre".  However, I do find that this is more desirable than a forced, grainy, and harsh treble.  
   
  Overall, my initial impressions are that this amp with the HE-Adapter does provide an enjoyable sound, but I don't know that I can say that it's better than the Lyr, and is certainly not better than the WA22.  I'd say it's just say it's a different flavor than the WA22.  I am going to obviously spend a lot more time with it, and see how my opinion changes over time.  Since I've already owned the PrimaLuna for several years, this was my affordable alternative to purchasing a WA22 after having one on loan for 2 weeks.  I was hoping that it would come fairly close to matching it, but initial listening has proven that this most likely will not be the case.
   
  FYI, the tubes that I have in the PrimaLuna: 2 x Pope NOS 12ax7 (very good tubes, hard to find now), 2 x PrimaLuna stock 12au7, 4 x Gold Lion KT88


----------



## preproman

Can you test it without the HE-adapter?  I suspect the HE-adapter to be the bottle neck here.  I have never used one but I've read where it has a negative effect on the sound.


----------



## Girls Generation

Technically.
  But sound tells us differently. I for one hear quite a large difference with the V200 and Mjolnir, over the O2.
  Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *adydula* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Its your money....and technically the O2 drives the LCD2's to it fullest potential...do the math,,
> 
> ...


----------



## jsplice

Quote: 





preproman said:


> Can you test it without the HE-adapter?  I suspect the HE-adapter to be the bottle neck here.  I have never used one but I've read where it has a negative effect on the sound.


 
   
  Unfortunately I can not.  I don't have an adapter to go straight from 4-pin XLR to bananas.  Also, with the HE-Adapter in place, I already have very little room to work with on the volume knob.  I suspect that if my usable volume range decreased even more after removing the HE-Adapter, the attenuator knob would be so low that that would now have a negative impact on the sound.  If I had a way to get a free 4-pin XLR to banana adapter, I would try it, but at this point, I don't know that I want to invest any more money in this venture.  I was going to order one from Moon Audio, but Drew told me that since it's a custom item, it's not returnable.  So that option is out.


----------



## preproman

Wow man  - I can let you use mine for a few weeks.


----------



## jsplice

Quote: 





preproman said:


> Wow man  - I can let you use mine for a few weeks.


 
  I appreciate the offer, but I always feel awkward if I were to borrow something from a Head-Fi'er.  I've had offers from others to lend me very expensive headphones, but I feel like it's just imposing.  Was yours expensive?
   
  I've been listening to this more and more with the HE-Adapter, and I'm starting to understand the sound more.  I've been using the PrimaLuna with my LSA-1 speakers for a while now, and I always thought it was the speaker's silk dome tweeter that was responsible for the very warm sound, but I'm now thinking it's just a quality of the amp itself.  My first impressions before might have been a bit harsh, but I just want to say that it definitely doesn't sound bad.  I think it's just an over-abundence of "warm" equipment.  The LCD-2.2 tend to be a bit warm on their own, and so is the PrimaLuna.  If you like a very warm sound, then this combination may be good for you.  Or maybe just a change in tubes would help improve the treble.  I would be willing to try that eventually.


----------



## preproman

Maybe $100 that's it.  Yeah - LCD-2.2 + Tubes = to warm and congested for me.  The LCD-3 might sound better and the HE-6 would benefit from it.
   
  IMO YMMV.


----------



## JamesHuntington

I want this...
  http://www.wyred4sound.com/webapps/p/74030/117839/803982


----------



## jsplice

Quote: 





preproman said:


> Maybe $100 that's it.  Yeah - LCD-2.2 + Tubes = to warm and congested for me.  The LCD-3 might sound better and the HE-6 would benefit from it.
> 
> IMO YMMV.


 
  That's what was so great about the WA22.  I've never heard an all-tube amplifier sound so detailed and transparent, with such an extended treble.  But of course this was with all the upgraded tubes, so the total cost of the WA22 with those tubes was somewhere around $2300-$2400 I think.  So it's definitely a "you get what you pay for" kind of thing.  I think you can get the PrimaLuna for about $1400 new now.


----------



## Lappy27

Quote: 





jsplice said:


> That's what was so great about the WA22.  I've never heard an all-tube amplifier sound so detailed and transparent, with such an extended treble.  But of course this was with all the upgraded tubes, so the total cost of the WA22 with those tubes was somewhere around $2300-$2400 I think.  So it's definitely a "you get what you pay for" kind of thing.  I think you can get the PrimaLuna for about $1400 new now.


 
  For $1400.00, you can go with Bryston BHA-1 and never ever look back!
   
  The LCD-2r2 are heaven match with the BHA-1.


----------



## Argo Duck

Decware Taboo is another all-tube amp capable of detail, transparency and extension. My preference is for neutral and balanced. The Taboo (with LCD2.1) is by far the best of my amps (the Meier Classic gets close in many ways). I haven't had to install expensive tubes to achieve this, having so far changed only the rectifier and driver tube. The two power tubes remain stock.
   
  I'm glad to say "warm and congested" is certainly not the sound I get, although I dare say it's capable of that with the 'right' tubes!


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





lappy27 said:


> For $1400.00, you can go with Bryston BHA-1 and never ever look back!
> 
> The LCD-2r2 are heaven match with the BHA-1.


 
   
   
*****YEP*****​


----------



## Chgm

someone here tried the lcd 2 with the hifiman EF5? if yes how the pairing is compared to yours other amps ?thanks


----------



## MorbidToaster

Ahh, but have fun powering speakers with the BHA-1. l o l
   
   
  Quote: 





preproman said:


> *****YEP*****​


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> Ahh, but have fun powering speakers with the BHA-1. l o l


 
   
  When did speakers become a requirement?


----------



## MorbidToaster

Never, just sayin' that it's a valid reason to consider the Decware other than being a fantastic amp already. 
   
  Quote: 





preproman said:


> When did speakers become a requirement?


----------



## dmcs414

chgm said:


> someone here tried the lcd 2 with the hifiman EF5? if yes how the pairing is compared to yours other amps ?thanks




My LCD-2 v2s are on their way to me, but when they arrive I should have a chance to listen to them on the EF5 I'm selling to a fellow local Head-fi'er and friend. I will report back on my findings. 

I could have kept the EF5 I was using with my last headphones (HE-500, now sold to the same friend) but wanted to do more research and then upgrade to a better desktop amp in the $700-1K range for my LCD-2s, as I've never had beyond a middling mid-fi type of rig. I'll be pre-amp'ing with my FiiO E17 and use incoming Schiit Magni as main drive power (Thanks Schiit for releasing this right when I needed it!) until I decide on a long-term amp.


----------



## longbowbbs

morbidtoaster said:


> Never, just sayin' that it's a valid reason to consider the Decware other than being a fantastic amp already.




+1 on the Decware.


----------



## Dutchi MerenGue

has anyone ever used their lcd-2's with a vintage marantz model 30?


----------



## sling5s

not the best. vintage pioneer works best on lcd-2
  Quote: 





dutchi merengue said:


> has anyone ever used their lcd-2's with a vintage marantz model 30?


----------



## Dutchi MerenGue

Quote: 





sling5s said:


> not the best. vintage pioneer works best on lcd-2


 
   
  marantz in general or that one specific model?


----------



## MorbidToaster

I pushed my LCD 2 with a Marantz 2238 before my LF and it was admirable. I generally think Pioneers sound bright and thin compared to Marantz.


----------



## sling5s

check out the thread: calling all vintage integrated/receiver owners
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/537704/calling-all-vintage-integrated-receiver-owners/6225#post_8905296
   
  There's a lot of info about which vintage receivers work well with lcd-2
  I have had several Marantz, Pioneers, and Sansui.  Marantz was good for Grados and Pioneers for LCD-2.
  But I did prefer the Pioneer SX-737 over SX-850.  The SX-737 had more warmth and sweeter midrange than the SX-850.  SX-850 was thinner and brighter by comparison. So while certain brands have a certain sound signature, they do vary somewhat. 
   
   
  Quote: 





dutchi merengue said:


> marantz in general or that one specific model?


----------



## Dutchi MerenGue

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> I pushed my LCD 2 with a Marantz 2238 before my LF and it was admirable. I generally think Pioneers sound bright and thin compared to Marantz.


 
   
  lol ahhh, good, just the sound signature i was looking for, never been a fan of the highs im sad to say


----------



## jtinto

Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> I can confirm that my MAD tube amp runs the LCD-2s very well. Although, I think I prefer the Concerto (disclaimer: subject to change with some more listening time and tube rolling).


 
  Okay, I'm a little late this party, but I'm listening to LCD-3 on a Mapletree EAR+ HD and I'm floored by how good it sounds. There's probably not much headroom available, but pure Class A tube amping is so liquid it's mesmerizing.


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





jtinto said:


> Okay, I'm a little late this party, but I'm listening to LCD-3 on a Mapletree EAR+ HD and I'm floored by how good it sounds. There's probably not much headroom available, but pure Class A tube amping is so liquid it's mesmerizing.


 
  Interesting. What tubes are you using?


----------



## LugBug1

I've recommended this amp on a few threads but just want to document on here. It's the Mistral HP509 cheap as chips and works wonders with my LCD2's. I bought it a bout a year ago and it didn't play well with my then RS1's, 650's... but when I tried it with both the LCD2 and HE500 I was very pleased! Especially the Audeze. It really brings out the speed and detail. It has a tube like sound with a welcome sharpness and light aswell as being smooth. No grain (I would expect some in the treble with an amp of this price even with orthos but there is none). It complements the LCD2's more so than my Audio gd c2.2 in regards to spead and control. I have it paired with an old warm sounding Arcam dac, but when I tried it with my more modern rdac the resolution was very good and clean. It's also very sturdily built and solid. So anyone on a budget or if you just want to try something a bit different it comes recommended. (the in-built dac is poor) Fleabay has them.


----------



## Man7rah

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Back on topic - and by way of segue - one amp that certainly has all the power you could ever need for the LCD-2, and still my favorite by far with them, is the Leben CS300X. Every time I go back to this combination I am reminded of justbhow much better it is than other combos. I can enjoy the LCD-2 with other amps, but with the Leben, there is some very serious synergy. The pair has to be an all-time top-tier combo.


 
  Has anyone compared the Leben CS300X to the Cavalli Audio Liquid Fire? If so, would anyone care to elaborate?


----------



## jtinto

Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> Interesting. What tubes are you using?


 
   
  the 12B4A are GE and the 12ax7 is new issue GoldLion
  comfortable listening levels, in my system, is about 11 o'clock with LCD-3 and 10 o'clock with RS1


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





jtinto said:


> the 12B4A are GE and the 12ax7 is new issue GoldLion
> comfortable listening levels, in my system, is about 11 o'clock with LCD-3 and 10 o'clock with RS1


 
  Nice. With the LCD-3, the 12AX7 GL is great. For the RS1s, I'd look into an NOS Sylvania (black plate).
   
  Cheers.


----------



## MorbidToaster

I really don't even think it's close to my ears. They both sound good (and I may very well own the 300XS soon), don't get me wrong...but the LF just out did the 300XS on pretty much every level except maybe pure musicality (tube magic). 
   
  Quote: 





man7rah said:


> Has anyone compared the Leben CS300X to the Cavalli Audio Liquid Fire? If so, would anyone care to elaborate?


----------



## tricka

I have owned the Leben 300 and the CS 600 and the CS 600 is a FAR better head amp than the 300. Never heard a Cavali - but boy I would love to.


----------



## MorbidToaster

Doesn't surprise that an amp twice the price of the 300 is better. 
   
  I really love Leben gear, but the wife(ish) pretty much never wants to gold faceplates in the house. 
   
  Quote: 





tricka said:


> I have owned the Leben 300 and the CS 600 and the CS 600 is a FAR beter head amp than the 300. Never head a Cavali - but boy I would love to.


----------



## h2oxide

Anyone ever paired the LCD2 with Auralic gear? Such as the Taurus and matching DAC. Pretty curious.


----------



## JamesHuntington

I got a Musical Fidelity V-can on eBay for $76- and I couldn't be happier. It can go down to 5ohm and I think it can power any headphone ever made. I paired mine with a new Wyred 4 Sound uDac and AKG K701s, and it's such a good set-up. I use the amp at about 1 third of its total volume for ear blasting sound, but isn't it better to have more than you need than need more than you have? You could get the V-can II for like $200- and DAC/Link it to all your music sources "W4S style" for an extra $400 (W4S is made in the USA and proven technology.) uDac has so many inputs for its size that I link it to my Computer TV and CD player all at the same time and can change to any of them by the flip of a switch. The V-can has in and out RCA, which works even when it's not plugged in, which is good when I turn on my stereo system and play from my Computer and W4S DAC.
    http://www.wyred4sound.com/webapps/p/74030/117839/618197
  Check the stats, the V-Can is very clear sound. Most complaints are that it's too loud, but I use mine all the time without issues. It's solid build, and doesn't get hot or nothing like tube.


----------



## tedkalaw

Just got my Schiit Lyr in the mail. On first listen, it sounds noticeably fuller than my JDSLabs C241. Will ABX later, but on first listen, it sounds incredible. Bought the Lyr on somewhat of an impulse in the classifieds, but now I'm glad I did haha.


----------



## coldwarrior1989

Just got an Audeze LC-2 and am currently running it on a Fiio E7/E9 combo.  In terms of performance and price, what amps / dac / cords / etc would you recommend that I should get in order to fully release the potential of these great headphones?


----------



## Man7rah

Quote: 





coldwarrior1989 said:


> What amps / dac / cords / etc would you recommend that I should get in order to fully release the potential of these great headphones?


 
  IMO you got your priorities right, I suggest you start reading through the thread from the very start. You'll probably find something that fits your tastes/budget.


----------



## JamesHuntington

Quote: 





coldwarrior1989 said:


> Just got an Audeze LC-2 and am currently running it on a Fiio E7/E9 combo.  In terms of performance and price, what amps / dac / cords / etc would you recommend that I should get in order to fully release the potential of these great headphones?


 

 I think your combo is pretty good until you're ready to spend some similar upper-end cash, 2000 or more. But look at what Audeze recommends on their site, a amp designed for their stuff at around $4000 if I'm not mistaken: Red Wine Audio’s new Audeze Edition Amp / DAC. If you don't care if you have balanced jacks, I really like W4S MPRE as it offers more than just amp/dac for when you also eventually decide to stream music into your home stereo. http://www.wyred4sound.com/webapps/p/74030/117839/803982 Here are just the headphone stats:
   
  [size=small]   "On the occasion that you are craving a headphone listening session, the mPRE has a ¼” headphone jack in the front panel so you can plug right into a high performance amp. The execution is nothing short of impressive. Independent power supplies and volume controls offer incredibly low crosstalk, and noise. All of these benefits the preamp offers will be even more apparent with the headphone stage that can also deliver an abundance of dynamic range which makes for a true hi fidelity headphone experience. The unit is even capable of driving headphones down in the 16ohm range."[/size]
   
  [size=small]You get a remote control and a quality product that is covered by a 5 year warranty and will not restrict your system like many products out there. And most people that have heard W4S dacs and amps know that they know what's up. I don't have LCD2 but I do have a Musical Fildeity "V-Can" amp and a W4S uDAC that is a grat combo for me and could be had for $600 or less. That little v-can is able to drive cans down to 5ohm, which is too loud for what I use. But in my opinion Musical Fidelity gives you more than you pay for or need, amp dac or whatever. See X-can reviews too[/size]. I'm also curious what others think about these items with lcd2 as a non $2000+ purchase. Good luck


----------



## Audio-Omega

Is Apex Peak a good match with LCD-2 ?


----------



## Bender1987

Man hehe I have read threw this whole thread, And it's got me nervous I have my first pair of LCD-2's coming in and the Woo WA7 on the way as well.
  Coming from a Fiio E7/E9 combo I hope the WA7 is enough to compliment the LCD-2's.
  All the speak of 4-5,000$ Amps has me nervous.. but in that good I may lose a few pay checks way.


----------



## JamesHuntington

Quote: 





bender1987 said:


> Man hehe I have read threw this whole thread, And it's got me nervous I have my first pair of LCD-2's coming in and the Woo WA7 on the way as well.
> Coming from a Fiio E7/E9 combo I hope the WA7 is enough to compliment the LCD-2's.
> All the speak of 4-5,000$ Amps has me nervous.. but in that good I may lose a few pay checks way.


 
  http://redwineaudio.com/components/audeze_edition
 http://www.wooaudio.com/products/wa7fireflies.html
 I'm no expert but I don't see a lot of problems with the specs on that Woo amp compared to the one designed for the LCD-2, except I don't understand what the Fiio is for. Are you planning on taking your LCD2 outdoors? And if so, that would worry me. But I only have Yamaha YH-100 orthodynamic headphones that are said to not fair well with dust, etc.


----------



## Bender1987

Quote: 





jameshuntington said:


> http://redwineaudio.com/components/audeze_edition
> http://www.wooaudio.com/products/wa7fireflies.html
> I'm no expert but I don't see a lot of problems with the specs on that Woo amp compared to the one designed for the LCD-2, except I don't understand what the Fiio is for. Are you planning on taking your LCD2 outdoors? And if so, that would worry me. But I only have Yamaha YH-100 orthodynamic headphones that are said to not fair well with dust, etc.


 
   No no hehe i used the Fiio E7/E9 with my Current AKG Q701's. With the upgrade to the LCD-2's I thought  an upgrade was in order for the AMP as well that is all.
  I do not think the LCD-2's will leave my house. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But yes the specs should work!


----------



## tamleo

Hi guys,
  Has anybody here experienced the Violectric V100 paired with the LCD-2s?
  How good is this amp? I found the V100 rarely mentioned at head-fi 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  And i am very confused in choosing between it and the Schiit Mjolnir now -.-
  Thanks,


----------



## sling5s

Most recommend the violectric v200 over the v100
  Quote: 





tamleo said:


> Hi guys,
> Has anybody here experienced the Violectric V100 paired with the LCD-2s?
> How good is this amp? I found the V100 rarely mentioned at head-fi
> 
> ...


----------



## Rawrbington

I've had good luck powering mine with a vintage Marantz and a Yamaha A-S500.  Both speakers amps, both sound different, both sound full and detailed.  No worries about underpowering.  And obviously, they both power my speakers as well.


----------



## JamesHuntington

Quote: 





rawrbington said:


> I've had good luck powering mine with a vintage Marantz and a Yamaha A-S500.  Both speakers amps, both sound different, both sound full and detailed.  No worries about underpowering.  And obviously, they both power my speakers as well.


 
  And we can thank the walkman and its original little headphones for the attenuation of most headphone outputs on home receivers. My only problem with going oldschool is that you lose digital ins and outs that come on newer receivers. Plus those things are about as energy efficient as a 50's refrigerator. But, if you look at some of the new receivers and pre-amps made by legitimate companies, they have decided to go back to the old ways of powering headphone jacks. It's an old/new school thing because I don't see a lot of people on this site powering speakers either.
   
  After I got my thrift store yh-100 headphones, I researched them and learned a lot about why they ended high power headphone jacks in receivers. And for newbies, they even had a special jack on Yamaha receivers that said "For Orthodynamic Only." I have a couple of older amps that I like all around, but they were not really designed for digital, which is either good or bad depending on your preference. My Sansui 7070 is quiet, has tons of technological goodies and is a true 45 wpc. Who has heard of true watts? pure watts, clean watts, undistorted watts, whatever? We usually just hear huge numbers followed by RMS. Some of the new companies still make good stuff, but you pay for it. I read that the Sansui 7070 was $550 when it came out, and to get the clean watts it puts out in a new system would cost a consumer around $900. However you do get digital ins and outs today. With most people getting component setups based on a central receiver unit, and will have to now buy a separate phonograph amp because they don't add those anymore (or for the last 5 or so years that I can tell), it might be worth finding and refurbishing a 70's monster receiver. (my apologies for the information stated, for I am not a tech guru and would really like to hear replies where I am wrong/right or in between.)


----------



## Rawrbington

The watts thing depends.  Some are total bs numbers used to decieve and sell black plastic boxes.  But others, the good stuff, is usually in some way marked truthfully.
   
  The digital part is a non-issue if you use a dac. 
  My marantz is plug and play with my computer same as the Yamaha.  Both take the LR RCA cables into the Aux port simple as that.
  If there is no stand alone DAC in your system, then the soundcard, cd player or ipod, all have a built in DAC that does the conversion, still feeding an analog signal to your amplifier.
   
  Luckily my only modern unit(the Yamaha) has a fairly nice phono section for what it is.
  Im preparing to rebuild/mod my Marantz 2245 phono board with some nice quality components, upgrading and replacing caps, replacing a few key transistors with a nice matched pair and new high quality diodes.
  We shall see how the Yamaha stands up to the Marantz with vinyl after the operation.


----------



## JamesHuntington

One thing I found is it's expensive and necessary to refurb that old equipment. But those things were built to last and if you take care of it then it should last a long time, unlike newer stuff. And it's also getting easier to find old amps and the huge speakers to go with them now that so many people are moving on to surround sound. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  But on the flip side, those receivers are not energy efficient, very heavy and usually have no remote. Also there are usually only 2 tape inputs and a phono input, which leaves little room for all my goodies. My sansui 7070 is 35 lbs., more than most new stereo systems and including speakers.
   
  My little Musical Fidelity V-Can 1 powers my YH-100 orthodynamic headphone, HD-540 (300ohm version) and k-701 with ease and low noise. I paid $75- with shipping on eBay for it. It's light, efficient and powerful. My only issue is that there is no on/off switch. I wish someone could tell me why this is not a more popular amp?


----------



## k4klcc

LCD2 is good for pop music


----------



## MatsudaMan

Burson Soloist. I know that they had Orthos in mind when designing and voicing it.  It's detailed and Oh so smooth!


----------



## LugBug1

Quote: 





jameshuntington said:


> My little Musical Fidelity V-Can 1 powers my YH-100 orthodynamic headphone, HD-540 (300ohm version) and k-701 with ease and low noise. I paid $75- with shipping on eBay for it. It's light, efficient and powerful. My only issue is that there is no on/off switch. I wish someone could tell me why this is not a more popular amp?


 
  I've not heard the Vcan but had the Xcan v3 and that was a great amp. I do however still own and use the original V-dac1 and it's a fine performer. An incredible performer for what you would pay for one now.


----------



## TGTBATQ

I just got my lcd-2's in the mail today, and I plugged them up to my NFB 15.1 that I used with my Denon D5000's, and honestly, I was a little depressed by the amount of bass (or lack there of) in these headphones.
  Could it just be the amp?
  I've gotten a recommendation to get a schiit bifrost+lyr combo and to add in nationals or something of the like to give it a really booming bass feel..
  my current setup is just foobar2k->usb to 15.1 as a dac/amp.
  i've got around 6-700$  leftover to spend on a dac and an amp, so what can I get to really give me that bass that rattles my body!
  i listen to a whole lot of electronic/house music, and I got the LCD-2's because everyone said they were hands down the absolute best for this genre of music.


----------



## nigeljames

Nothing gives a big booming bass like the Denons.
  The LCD's are more big quality bass without the boom. Thats what you are paying the money for - better quality.


----------



## rated1975

New Decware Taboo not far away. Let the countdown begin.
http://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1356975326


----------



## longbowbbs

Quote: 





rated1975 said:


> New Decware Taboo not far away. Let the countdown begin.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Congrats on the Decware rated1975!


----------



## LugBug1

Quote: 





tgtbatq said:


> I just got my lcd-2's in the mail today, and I plugged them up to my NFB 15.1 that I used with my Denon D5000's, and honestly, I was a little depressed by the amount of bass (or lack there of) in these headphones.
> Could it just be the amp?
> I've gotten a recommendation to get a schiit bifrost+lyr combo and to add in nationals or something of the like to give it a really booming bass feel..
> my current setup is just foobar2k->usb to 15.1 as a dac/amp.
> ...


 
  I woukd give them a little time and you may come to appreciate the quality of bass rather than the quantity. The Denons are famous for coloured and boomy bass. I love EDM on the LCD2's way better than my old Denon d2000


----------



## adydula

tgtbatq,
   
  What songs were you listening to that seems lacking the bass??
   
  Alex


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





lugbug1 said:


> I woukd give them a little time and you may come to appreciate the quality of bass rather than the quantity.


 
  Yep. In spades.


----------



## JamesHuntington

Quote: 





tgtbatq said:


> I just got my lcd-2's in the mail today, and I plugged them up to my NFB 15.1 that I used with my Denon D5000's, and honestly, I was a little depressed by the amount of bass (or lack there of) in these headphones.
> Could it just be the amp?
> I've gotten a recommendation to get a schiit bifrost+lyr combo and to add in nationals or something of the like to give it a really booming bass feel..
> my current setup is just foobar2k->usb to 15.1 as a dac/amp.
> ...


 

 Maybe they won't boom like the Dennons, but in theory they should handle all the other frequency details better when the boom hits. If you want bass you use woofers. If you want to hear all the frequencies without one distorting the other, I think LCD2 should be a top pick. Some burn-in may help, or amp may be the problem too. Some amp/dac combos can run with just usb power, but if it's not plugged in using power-supply adapter, that's recommended and necessary when powering bigger headphones. I looked up the amp, some info here and website below for experts, which I'm not one

 [size=x-small]Output power
 Only for headphone.[/size] 
 [size=x-small]3500mW/25 ohm
 1800mW/50 ohm
 900mW/100 ohm
 300mW/300 ohm
 150mW/600 ohm
 　[/size]
 [size=x-small]Output impedance[/size]  [size=x-small]2 ohm /  Headphone output
 2 ohm / DAC output[/size]

   
  http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/Headphoneamp/NFB15/NFB15EN_Specs.htm


----------



## LugBug1

Quote: 





jameshuntington said:


> Maybe they won't boom like the Dennons, but in theory they should handle all the other frequency details better when the boom hits. If you want bass you use woofers. If you want to hear all the frequencies without one distorting the other, I think LCD2 should be a top pick. Some burn-in may help though or amp may be the problem too. But I'm no expert,
> 
> 
> [size=x-small]Output power
> ...


 
  Yeah thats more than enough power for the LCD2 to sing comfortably. Audio gd is an aquired taste for some as they favour musicality over analytical in my limited experience, but they certainly make great gear for the money.


----------



## Man7rah

Quote: 





rated1975 said:


> New Decware Taboo not far away. Let the countdown begin.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Can't wait to see comparisons to the Mini Torii and old Taboo!


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





tgtbatq said:


> I just got my lcd-2's in the mail today, and I plugged them up to my NFB 15.1 that I used with my Denon D5000's, and honestly, I was a little depressed by the amount of bass (or lack there of) in these headphones.
> Could it just be the amp?
> I've gotten a recommendation to get a schiit bifrost+lyr combo and to add in nationals or something of the like to give it a really booming bass feel..
> my current setup is just foobar2k->usb to 15.1 as a dac/amp.
> ...


 
   
   
  Get the Mjolnir.  Problem solved..


----------



## JamesHuntington

Quote: 





preproman said:


> Get the Mjolnir.  Problem solved..


 

 http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=SCMJO
   
  Because I don't know??? but he has 6-700 and this would cost $750-. Would he still need to get balanced cables or does the lcd2 come with that? Sounds like another $80- on Audeze site if he would need them. I'm not getting a whole lot on the site to verify either way. I even watched a guy unbox his and couldn't tell by photo. After reading the Schitt info I think that is a great recommendation though.


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





jameshuntington said:


> http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=SCMJO
> 
> Because I don't know??? but he has 6-700 and this would cost $750-. Would he still need to get balanced cables or does the lcd2 come with that? Sounds like another $80- on Audeze site if he would need them. I'm not getting a whole lot on the site to verify either way. I even watched a guy unbox his and couldn't tell by photo. After reading the Schitt info I think that is a great recommendation though.


 
   
   
  I don't think the LCD-2 comes with balanced cables.  I know the LCD-3 does.


----------



## YtseJamer

preproman said:


> Get the Mjolnir.  Problem solved..




X2


----------



## TGTBATQ

Quote: 





preproman said:


> Get the Mjolnir.  Problem solved..


 
  thank you everyone for your replies and advice, i've been advised to get the Bifrost and Lyr, as opposed to just getting the Mjolnir and not using a dac.
  What are the advantages/disadvantages of one over the other?


----------



## hekeli

Zzzz... no amp change is going to make LCD-2 "rattle ur head". Just use a +6-9dB bass eq.


----------



## TGTBATQ

Quote: 





hekeli said:


> Zzzz... no amp change is going to make LCD-2 "rattle ur head". Just use a +6-9dB bass eq.


 
  i wasn't literally meaning "rattle my head", i was simply stating that the lcd-2's bass got so much praise, and i'm genuinely not seeing it come forth as much as i'd like to (or was hoping, for that matter)


----------



## hekeli

Quote: 





tgtbatq said:


> i wasn't literally meaning "rattle my head", i was simply stating that the lcd-2's bass got so much praise, and i'm genuinely not seeing it come forth as much as i'd like to (or was hoping, for that matter)


 
   
  Common misconception if you don't read between the lines. Quality is there, but quantity is "flat" (even the graphs tell you that). EDM always likes a boosted bottom.


----------



## TGTBATQ

Quote: 





hekeli said:


> Common misconception if you don't read between the lines. Quality is there, but quantity is "flat" (even the graphs tell you that).


 
  so, what you're saying is, there's really no way to get more "quantity" out of the bass?


----------



## hekeli

Quote: 





tgtbatq said:


> so, what you're saying is, there's really no way to get more "quantity" out of the bass?


 

 Use EQ / DSP / tone controls or whatever you like.
   
  If you still don't like it after that, that's fine. There's also a difference with open and closed phones. Closed ones usually can give you different punch/slam regardless of EQ due to the physical differences. I like my TH900 for electronic..


----------



## MorbidToaster

I personally found the LCD 2 to respond poorly to EQ. I'm a big EDM listener and I've tried both hardware and software stuff and preferred it without it every time.


----------



## JamesHuntington

Quote: 





tgtbatq said:


> so, what you're saying is, there's really no way to get more "quantity" out of the bass?


 

 A beefier cable should help.


----------



## dagothur

Quote: 





jameshuntington said:


> A beefier cable should help.


 
  This man's right.  Just wrap your cable in premium roast.


----------



## JamesHuntington

Quote: 





jameshuntington said:


> A beefier cable should help.


 


 [size=xx-large]www.charlestoncablecompany.com[/size]
   
  I like this companies philosophy: Chose either entry level, mid level or audiophile. Also can see
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/637059/what-are-the-most-noticeable-cable-upgrades


----------



## adydula

The bass with the LCD2's is "quality" not boomy loudness.....Its there and accurate....just not as boomy as in many other cans.
  I use a lowly O2 amp and have bass that is out of this world.....
   
  Also had the Schiit Lyr and many tubes, once I had the O2 I sold the Schiit....
   
  Alex


----------



## HeyWaj10

Anyone have extensive experience with the Musical Fidelity M1HPA?  I have seen a couple spotty comments across the forum, all seem pretty positive, but would love to hear more in-depth experiences with this amp.  I really like the look/features of it, just want to know details on how it drives the LCD-2s.
   
  Thanks!


----------



## JamesHuntington

Quote: 





heywaj10 said:


> Anyone have extensive experience with the Musical Fidelity M1HPA?  I have seen a couple spotty comments across the forum, all seem pretty positive, but would love to hear more in-depth experiences with this amp.  I really like the look/features of it, just want to know details on how it drives the LCD-2s.
> 
> Thanks!


 

 That looks really nice. And with a usb input, this looks like a great desktop upgrade for average listeners like me. I'm a huge fan of Musical Fidelity design. They seem to always know what's up. I'm still learning, too. I'm still confused about how impedance works. I still wonder if more power is good, or can it ruin an LCD2 that I always assumed was a power hungry headphone. I think clean power is the way to go and this amp boasts like 0.00005db distortion or something, which seems pretty low to me. Another idea I'm confused about is how current is involved in the planar magnetic power needs. Lots of people say that the M1HPA can do wonders with the right headphone, but do they mean Grado and Sennheizer, which are dynamic headphones and can manage a different type of power to bring out their true beauty? Or do they mean that this amp can power inefficient headphones? So maybe low power and high efficiency might be right if this amp is more suited for dynamic? I'm not worried that the M1HPa won't power them very nicely, it's just how perfectly would it do? Uh, but found this
   
  http://wiki.faust3d.com/wiki/index.php?title=Amplifiers_for_use_with_orthodynamic_headphones


----------



## Towwers

After spending a few hours reading this thread and trying to figure out  the perfect amp for my LCD2, I've decided that I will select between: the Schiit Mjolnir or the  Burson Soloist. I'm already owner of a O2 amp, and it pairs quite well with the LCD2. However, I want to upgrade and bring the full potential of my LCD2. furthermore, I also want a "friendly" amp that can pair with different types of headphones I might buy in the near future. like the Beyerdynamic T1, Grado ps500/1000 Sennheiser HD650, or even the HD800 (This one is very picky). What do you guys recommend me?


----------



## Sweden

Quote: 





towwers said:


> After spending a few hours reading this thread and trying to figure out  the perfect amp for my LCD2, I've decided that I will select between: the Schiit Mjolnir or the  Burson Soloist. I'm already owner of a O2 amp, and it pairs quite well with the LCD2. However, I want to upgrade and bring the full potential of my LCD2. furthermore, I also want a "friendly" amp that can pair with different types of headphones I might buy in the near future. like the Beyerdynamic T1, Grado ps500/1000 Sennheiser HD650, or even the HD800 (This one is very picky). What do you guys recommend me?


 
   
  I'm thinking maybe a Violectric V200 for SS.
  I have not listened to it but the Eddie Current Super 7 might be interesting to look into if you have the cash.
  Not sure how it works with low impedance Grados.
   
  The best amp I heard with all these headphones is the Leben CS300 but that is some serious cash.


----------



## adydula

Towwers....
   
  The O2 can easily provide all that your LCD2's can reproduce.....even on batteries....pure DC.....
   
  The O2 has been compared with many amps that cost a whole lot more.....
   
  If you get a more expensive amp, keep the O2 to do a real comparison....I think you will be very surprised.
   
  Oh I have LCD2's R2's and have tried many amps and dacs....sold them all and kept the O2's!
   
  All the best
  Alex


----------



## Sweden

The HD800 sound sterile and utterly boring with the O2.


----------



## Towwers

Quote: 





adydula said:


> Towwers....
> 
> The O2 can easily provide all that your LCD2's can reproduce.....even on batteries....pure DC.....
> 
> ...


 
  Indeed, the O2 is one hell of an amp! I´ll try to buy of the two mentioned so I can compare and share my comparison  in this thread. But I´ve heard so many good things about the soloist and the Mjolnir that I can´t decide which one to choose!


----------



## Towwers

Quote: 





sweden said:


> I'm thinking maybe a Violectric V200 for SS.
> I have not listened to it but the Eddie Current Super 7 might be interesting to look into if you have the cash.
> Not sure how it works with low impedance Grados.
> 
> The best amp I heard with all these headphones is the Leben CS300 but that is some serious cash.


 
  Isn't the v200 a warm amp? the lcd 2 is already warm.. I'm kinda afraid of that mixture, lol!


----------



## MorbidToaster

I'd go with Mjolnir. While I haven't heard the Soloist I haven't been inpressed by Burson otherwise. 
   
  It's also a good SS amp for the HD800. It's not as bright as a lot of others I've heard.


----------



## paradoxper

Again, it comes down to what you're looking for.
   
  The Mojo and Soloist are both superb options. However are your preferences for a warmer type of forgiving/laid back presentation or
  a revealing, aggressive presentation?
   
  I know some have had issues with fatigue when listening to Mjolnir. I can't say I share the same experience. I can go 4-8 hours no problem.
   
  Then there's also the factor of what source will you be using? Mjolnir shines balanced w/ a true differential DAC.
  Soloist is SE all throughout and of course, you have re-terminate all your cables to either 4-pin or dual 3-pin XLR for use with Mjolnir.


----------



## h2oxide

Quote: 





towwers said:


> Isn't the v200 a warm amp? the lcd 2 is already warm.. I'm kinda afraid of that mixture, lol!


 

 Nope, sounds fine


----------



## JamesHuntington

Quote: 





heywaj10 said:


> Anyone have extensive experience with the Musical Fidelity M1HPA?  I have seen a couple spotty comments across the forum, all seem pretty positive, but would love to hear more in-depth experiences with this amp.  I really like the look/features of it, just want to know details on how it drives the LCD-2s.
> 
> Thanks!


 

 http://www.head-fi.org/t/571393/are-there-amps-that-do-both-orthodynamic-high-efficiency-headphones-well
   
  I'm not trying to say this thread will answer your question, but there seems to be some good info here about how average dynamic designed amps work with orthodynamics. There may be information on what to look for in an amp that will give you the right power, not that the M1hpa won't. I would just compare the output ratings etc of recommended amps for orthos with the stats on the one you want.


----------



## adydula

the v200 is one amp that the designer of the O2 has said many good comments on, good specs, good design...but he also indicated the sound wasnt any better or worse and the price differential of the O2 vs the V200 was not worth it.
   
  He did say the v200 was "better' built mechanically...but not sonically....
   
  HD 800 boring with the O2...really I thought this was an LCD2 thread....
   
  Alex


----------



## TGTBATQ

To the people recommending a nice cable, is there anything that is a noticeable worthwhile upgrade for around 200USD?
  Also, the big deal on toxic vs norse vs others, is it really just down to preference?


----------



## adydula

Cable? You mean to replace the stock LCD2 cable??
   
  Alex


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





adydula said:


> the v200 is one amp that the designer of the O2 has said many good comments on, good specs, good design...but he also indicated the sound wasnt any better or worse and the price differential of the O2 vs the V200 was not worth it.
> 
> He did say the v200 was "better' built mechanically...but not sonically....
> 
> ...


 
  Sorry, the O2 is a good amp for the money, however the V200 is such a better match. O2 lacks in control across the spectrum
  and overall musicality. IMO, of course.


----------



## TGTBATQ

yes a cable to replace the stock cable that came with the LCDs.


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





tgtbatq said:


> To the people recommending a nice cable, is there anything that is a noticeable worthwhile upgrade for around 200USD?
> Also, the big deal on toxic vs norse vs others, is it really just down to preference?


 
  Only your ears can judge if the upgrade is worthwhile. Most of it is preference, copper vs SPC vs silver, etc.
  There's also different design options to choose from. Aesthetics pretty much and ergonomics to take into consideration.


----------



## longbowbbs

Quote: 





tgtbatq said:


> To the people recommending a nice cable, is there anything that is a noticeable worthwhile upgrade for around 200USD?
> Also, the big deal on toxic vs norse vs others, is it really just down to preference?


 
  There are several Toxic choice in that price range....


----------



## TGTBATQ

Quote: 





longbowbbs said:


> There are several Toxic choice in that price range....


 
  I'm asking which would provide the most noticeable upgrade, for what i'm after, for the money in said price range. Obviously the cheaper the better.
   
  Quote: 





paradoxper said:


> Only your ears can judge if the upgrade is worthwhile. Most of it is preference, copper vs SPC vs silver, etc.
> There's also different design options to choose from. Aesthetics pretty much and ergonomics to take into consideration.


 
  So it would be more of a "now what do i upgrade?" kind of upgrade?


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





tgtbatq said:


> I'm asking which would provide the most noticeable upgrade, for what i'm after, for the money in said price range. Obviously the cheaper the better.
> 
> So it would be more of a "now what do i upgrade?" kind of upgrade?


 
  First I think you need to establish what camp your'e in. Do cable's matter or not.
   
  Then it's clear what to do or not do.


----------



## TGTBATQ

Quote: 





paradoxper said:


> First I think you need to establish what camp your'e in. Do cable's matter or not.
> 
> Then it's clear what to do or not do.


 
  Is there a "i've never heard the difference between a stock and aftermarket cable so i'll just set my tent over there" camp?


----------



## JamesHuntington

Quote: 





tgtbatq said:


> To the people recommending a nice cable, is there anything that is a noticeable worthwhile upgrade for around 200USD?
> Also, the big deal on toxic vs norse vs others, is it really just down to preference?


 

 I heard the toxic are good. I think most people complain that upgraded cables can be stiff or harder to manage. I'd say look for flexibility as well. I posted a site about 20 comments ago with a website that does cables. But if your amp isn't up to it, then cables might not give you an improvement. I think of the LCD2 like a new car purchase, the tires (like the cable) are just enough to get you down the road for a few miles, but you'll probably want to think about throwing something on there with a little more meat. But if you're just driving your grandma to the market (like using an amp with cheap circuitry) then you'll be happy with them stock 2-ply tires (cables). 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





YeeHaa


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





tgtbatq said:


> Is there a "i've never heard the difference between a stock and aftermarket cable so i'll just set my tent over there" camp?


 
  Haha. No! Inexperience is unacceptable. You can't just set your tent in the cable camp and then later change your mind.


----------



## TGTBATQ

Quote: 





jameshuntington said:


> I heard the toxic are good. I think most people complain that upgraded cables can be stiff or harder to manage. I'd say look for flexibility as well. I posted a site about 20 comments ago with a website that does cables. But if your amp isn't up to it, then cables might not give you an improvement. I think of the LCD2 like a new car purchase, the tires (like the cable) are just enough to get you down the road for a few miles, but you'll probably want to think about throwing something on there with a little more meat. But if you're just driving your grandma to the market (like using an amp with cheap circuitry) then you'll be happy with them stock 2-ply tires (cables).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  I ordered the schiit bifrost/lyr combo to pair up with my LCD2s based off of raving recommendations from a LOT of members, I guess i'll just save my money and blow it on a cable further down the road since I don't really know what i'm looking for :s


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





tgtbatq said:


> I ordered the schiit bifrost/lyr combo to pair up with my LCD2s based off of raving recommendations from a LOT of members, I guess i'll just save my money and blow it on a cable further down the road since I don't really know what i'm looking for :s


 
  Don't worry about it, enjoy the rig ya got and focus on the music. Later on down the road you can blow money on a cable
  that offer's such stark night n day differentials.


----------



## TGTBATQ

Quote: 





paradoxper said:


> Don't worry about it, enjoy the rig ya got and focus on the music. Later on down the road you can blow money on a cable
> that offer's such stark night n day differentials.


 
  looks like i'll just set up camp here then 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  thanks for all the help everyone


----------



## sling5s

I've had the O2 and now have the V200.  I will not say the V200 is "better" because "better" sonically is a matter of preference, but I will say that the v200 sounds really different than the O2.  
  The V200 is the most musical (solid state) amp I've heard.  In this regard, very tube like.  The O2 has a very solid state, wire + gain type of sound.  So it's really a matter of preference. 
   
  Quote: 





adydula said:


> the v200 is one amp that the designer of the O2 has said many good comments on, good specs, good design...but he also indicated the sound wasnt any better or worse and the price differential of the O2 vs the V200 was not worth it.
> 
> He did say the v200 was "better' built mechanically...but not sonically....
> 
> ...


----------



## JamesHuntington

Quote: 





tgtbatq said:


> I ordered the schiit bifrost/lyr combo to pair up with my LCD2s based off of raving recommendations from a LOT of members, I guess i'll just save my money and blow it on a cable further down the road since I don't really know what i'm looking for :s


 

 A lot of companies will let you return an item if you don't like it. So what would it hurt to ask around for their return policy? Order a cable and check it out. It might cost $5 to send it back. Or you may see that you can't live without it.


----------



## h2oxide

And my obligatory 2c. I definitely wouldn't regard the V200 as tube-like in any regard.


----------



## sling5s

Even Fried, the CEO of Violectrics said in a email to me that many of his customers feel the v200 possesses some tube like qualities. 
  It's one of the reason I purchased it.  I believe if you go on the V200 thread, there are comments that many tube lovers, selling their tube amp for the V200.
  And even Project 86 saying to the effect that if you had a big large amp box with lots of tubes sticking out with a the v200 underneath, that people would not think otherwise.
   
  I don't think the v200 is tube like in the sense that it's slow and syrupy but that it's a got kind of holographic presentation that tubes do well. 
   
  Quote: 





h2oxide said:


> And my obligatory 2c. I definitely wouldn't regard the V200 as tube-like in any regard.


----------



## h2oxide

All well and good however, no matter how many people state it sounds tube-like doesn't change what I'm hearing or my opinion of what it sounds like. Like I said, it was just my 2c.


----------



## sling5s

Yes, we do all hear differently.


----------



## Towwers

Any recommendation of a good DAC for the Mjolnir or soloist? is the Schiit Modi or bifrost good enough? thanks!


----------



## MorbidToaster

They're work, but why not go Gungnir and be done? The Schiit stack is really nice.
   
  Quote: 





towwers said:


> Any recommendation of a good DAC for the Mjolnir or soloist? is the Schiit Modi or bifrost good enough? thanks!


----------



## adydula

I would rather spend my money on "great music" well recorded and mastered that on cables that really dont anything sonically..and yes I am in the cables dont matter camp after spending A LOT OF MONEY on them to prove to myself how gullible we all can be....They are all sold to happy campers...
   
  I dont have an issue having nice stuff, well made, glowing lights etc....lots of power...but the O2 amp and its existance shows me and many others that good audio doesnt have to be really expensive...not saying having expensive stuff precludes a good audio experience.
   
  Its good we can agree to disagree on this stuff...instead of flaming....
   
  All the best
  Alex


----------



## adydula

O2 "lacks control over the spectrum???" what is that all about??
   
  IMO it has "total control"...whatever that means.....
   
  OMG...well....
  
  Alex


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





adydula said:


> O2 "lacks control over the spectrum???" what is that all about??
> 
> IMO it has "total control"...whatever that means.....
> 
> ...


 
  It was said to be IMO. Do you really not know what I ment or sarcasm, bit trollin'.
   
  Anyways, the O2 lacks control in the bottom compared to other amps (such as V200), for example.


----------



## adydula

and how do you know it lacks control in the bottom end??
   
  please be more specific and what are you listening to that has this low bottom end??
   
  Alex


----------



## MorbidToaster

A lack of control usually implies the possibility of bleed and boominess. It can also tend to sound slow. 
   
  Why can't you accept the fact that the O2 just isn't the master race of amps in a lot of people's eyes? If you're happy with it, then stick with it. 
   
  It's great for the price, but to most people (and you don't need 'golden ears' to hear it) think there are better amps out there. _How many other amps have you tried?_
   
  Quote: 





adydula said:


> and how do you know it lacks control in the bottom end??
> 
> please be more specific and what are you listening to that has this low bottom end??
> 
> Alex


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> A lack of control usually implies the possibility of bleed and boominess. It can also tend to sound slow.
> 
> Why can't you accept the fact that the O2 just isn't the master race of amps in a lot of people's eyes? If you're happy with it, then stick with it.
> 
> It's great for the price, but to most people (and you don't need 'golden ears' to hear it) think there are better amps out there. _How many other amps have you tried?_


 
  Spot on.


----------



## adydula

You guys are killing me....
   
  Please define "bleed" ...again you have got to be kidding right????
   
  So what are you listening to where you hear "bleed: and or "bloom"....my goodness this is such an exact science...
   
  So because i ask you what it is your trying to explain I am challenged by how many amps have i listened to???
   
  Here's my answer to you: A LOT.
   
  Thats just as clear as loss of control bleed or bloom......
   
  OMG...this is too funny
   
  Alex


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





adydula said:


> You guys are killing me....
> 
> Please define "bleed" ...again you have got to be kidding right????
> 
> ...


 
  Haha! I listen to mostly metal. However this is pretty much apparent generally regardless of music genre. And more importantly, it's in comparison to other amps.
   
   I'll take the Mjolnir, for example. In comparison to the O2, there's better resolution, details, bass and control across the spectrum.
  Meaning, the O2 is missing out on detail cues, the bass also seems loose (as in not as focused and slow).
   
   
  MT asked how many amps you've listened to to gauge your experience with gear. Otherwise, it's a kind of  ignorance is bliss thing.
   
   
Familiarize yourself. Or don't, that's cool, too.


----------



## MorbidToaster

I'm not questioning the number of amps you've heard because you don't 'get the terms I use'. I'm questioning it because you're going back and forth with a guy that I know for a fact has heard a lot of good equipment. 
   
  Just trying to gauge your experience, not attack you. Calm down.
   
  A LOT isn't really an answer. You could have listened to A LOT of FiiO amps for all I know. So let me pull one from your playbook...Please define 'a lot'.
   
  Bleed would imply the bass making the mids less clear. Thus, not being under control. It's a common issue that I've heard in cheaper amps with the LCD 2. It's present on a number of my test tracks with this combo you love so much. One of the most noticeable being 'Sledgehammer' by Peter Gabriel. 
   
  EDIT: Wow Para, we said almost the exact same thing. 
   
  Quote: 





adydula said:


> You guys are killing me....
> 
> Please define "bleed" ...again you have got to be kidding right????
> 
> ...


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> EDIT: Wow Para, we said almost the exact same thing.


 
  Slow poke. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Oh and I have a feeling our collective thoughts go no where.


----------



## adydula

Thanks for the definition list link....
   
  I didnt see "Bleed" on the list??
   
  I did see boomy....
   
  None of the specs for the 02 suggest that this is true...but i guess we can agree to disagree...there is no attentuation to anything to include test tones looked at via an oscilliscope.
   
  That said I am an electrical engineer type, an Extra Class Amateur Radio Op, been in audio since the 50's....tubes and tubes and more tubes....and am a very analytical person...
   
  I have built more amps than you have fingers on your hands!! LOL...
   
  I would put up the O2 against many other amps with the likes of Sledgehammer any day in a real double blind test or against their spec measurements done with high end measurement instruments by people that know how to take such measurents.
   
  Using adjectives like on this list although nice to have...do not prove to me or are exact enough to really describe what your trying to tell me.
   
  I can respect what your trying to say...but I need more analytical data other than "it feels good or sounds good"..in other words "show me the beef"!
   
  In the past few years I have gone thru a variety of stuff, Matrix-M, Burson HA160, SOHA II DIY, Schiit Lyr, Shiit Asgard, Heed, Bottlehead, Insight +, Several AVR's and friends amps (to include B22). I enjoy soldering and building ...so the O2 to me after understanding what this person was really designing intrigued me and it has lived up to my expectations with real world specs, confirmed by others and by listening to a WIDE variety of source material...
   
  If you say an amp is "boomy" or has "bleed" then please include more details like what source your using, what on a particular recording you think exhibits this ?? Then I can and others try the source for ourselves and see if we can hear or not hear what your trying to share...
   
  We all probably have heard lots of equipment....and if you have its really easy for all these experiences blend together over time....even the "best" stuff by your definitions will sound different depending on many things...from your mood, state of mind and how much beer you have enjoyed!
   
  There are amps that will sound as good as the O2, there are many that will sound worse.
   
  Its your money.
   
  Enjoy
   
  Alex


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





adydula said:


> Spoiler: Warning%3A%20Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  No problem! I think the list is useful and interesting. 
   
  I am sure you've built many more amps than I could imagine. I'm 23, but I've had 
  experience with a variety gear ranging from mid-tier to high-end.
   
  If you don't feel there's any difference of meaningful value, be it subjective or objective.
  Then alright.
   
  The difference is simply that you use measurements to gauge gear, I use my ears.
  And please, don't get the idea that I'm implying that measurements are useless.
   
  There's been enough "O club" vs the rest. And as stated, it was IMO.
   
  Meaning, my subjective experience. So I won't be providing objective anything's.
   
   
   
  Sources were Bifrost and ODAC at that time.
   
  Music was:
  Lorn, Carbon Based Lifeforms, As Blood Runs Black, Impending Doom, Britney Spears,
  Lights, Owl City, The Acacia Strain, Suicide Silence, The Black Dahlia Murder, Rush, The Doors,
  Pink Floyd, Defeater and a ton more. Mostly metal, but there's a mix in there.
   
   
   
  And there are plenty of amps that sound much better than O2. IMO.
  Or not, In Your Opinion.
   
  Anyways, it's clear we disagree, glad it was kept civil.


----------



## adydula

Peace brother!!
   
  The Doors...now we have something in common!!
   
  and I do think the V200 sounds as good as the O2. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Alex


----------



## Francoy

Quote: 





tgtbatq said:


> To the people recommending a nice cable, is there anything that is a noticeable worthwhile upgrade for around 200USD?
> Also, the big deal on toxic vs norse vs others, is it really just down to preference?


 
   
  This thread is a bit in hibernation at the moment, but it contains a lot of info regarding your question, but maybe you should start reading from the end though :
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/533209/lcd-2-and-lcd-3-owners-which-aftermarket-cable-do-you-use/
   
  (In my case, I chose a brown q-audio cable [similar to the Norse cable] because of aesthetics and lightness and I can’t think of a good reason to change my cable)


----------



## MorbidToaster

adydula said:


> Peace brother!!
> 
> The Doors...now we have something in common!!
> 
> ...




Think we all have that in common. My Doors LL box just shipped. I officially own every album on vinyl. Excited.


----------



## citraian

Hi guys,
   
  Upon reading a lot of this thread I kind of set my mind on the V200 or the Soloist. What DAC would you recommend for them? Is the optional DAC board for the V200 any good?


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





citraian said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Upon reading a lot of this thread I kind of set my mind on the V200 or the Soloist. What DAC would you recommend for them? Is the optional DAC board for the V200 any good?


 
   
  If your cool with the adaptive technology its fine.  However, they're better out there. IMO..


----------



## citraian

Quote: 





preproman said:


> If your cool with the adaptive technology its fine.  However, they're better out there. IMO..


 
  Please give some examples and explain what is the difference. I'm open to suggestions


----------



## longbowbbs

Quote: 





adydula said:


> You guys are killing me....
> 
> Please define "bleed" ...again you have got to be kidding right????
> 
> ...


 
   
  There is a current discussion in the HD650 thread. One person says they are "Dry" and the person says they are "Damp"....Hey, they are probably both right to their respective ears...Gotta love audio!


----------



## preproman

In easy to understand terms.. 
   
http://www.pearlaudiovideo.com/blog/expertise/computer-audio/usb-asychronous-vs-usb-adaptive/
   
   Nowadays mostly all DAC makers are making Asynchronous USB DACS.  
   
  Adaptive USB = older technology.  Asynchronous USB = newer technology.


----------



## adydula

the ODAC is adaptive and has world class numbers....things like the HRT Technologies MSii+ use the asynchronous design... I cant tell any difference between the two.
   
  when i hear things like 'there are better' this can mean its built like a tank and or has great performance....and great specs.
   
  some folks will spend a $1000 on an amp and think that they need to spend another $1000 on a DAC....regardless of the technology....
   
  the real point to this dribble is that for the dac to perform well and have world class specs and performance it has to be layed out physically very, very well on the circuit
  board etc...
   
  The ODAC does this very well and is the 'older' technology....
   
  Alex


----------



## Towwers

So, since buying the LCD2 killed my wallet 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. I decided to buy the ODAC for my O2 and the Schiit magni + modi combo. because I want to make a comparison of both! I decided that ill buy the Mjolnir or soloist later this year. I need to save some money!!! and in the meantime i´ll keep looking at this thread for new amp options! Thanks for the tips!!!


----------



## Rawrbington

Got a WA6SE maxed.
  It sounds very very good with the LCD-2.
  You can't go wrong with the 6SE.
  The soundstage really opens up on them
  And vocals come to life even more.


----------



## dan.gheorghe

I love my lcd2 with the Burson Conductor both amp and dac wise.
   
  Here are my impressions on the Conductor and if you want to read the full story here.
   
citraian is included in the story (the reason he is here too) )


----------



## Towwers

Actually, just recently i was looking at the WA6-SE and the WA2. Woo audio has good reviews overall. However, I don´t have much knowledge about tube amplifiers 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. I wish I could buy them all!! lol. BTW, have you seen the new WA7 fireflies? it looks very promising!


----------



## longbowbbs

Quote: 





towwers said:


> However, I don´t have much knowledge about tube amplifiers
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  You have discovered the closely held secret of Head-Fi! They will be coming for you now....


----------



## Rawrbington

I couldn't recommend buying the WA2 to use with LCD2.
  Mine doesn't work great with the audeze.
  Ive read other people have more luck.  I think its tube dependent.
  The WA2's power lies in the higher impedance headphones.
  With something like 600 ohm beyers or the Sennheiser 650s heck yes the WA2 sounds fantastic.
  and the very good preamp it doubles as is a huge bonus.
   
  its just not ideal for the LCD2
   
  But the 6SE is very with them.


----------



## Dubstep Girl

WA6-SE is awesome with LCD-2!


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





adydula said:


> the ODAC is adaptive and has world class numbers....things like the HRT Technologies MSii+ use the asynchronous design... I cant tell any difference between the two.
> 
> when i hear things like 'there are better' this can mean its built like a tank and or has great performance....and great specs.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Well Alex,
   
  You just keep on using your ODAC I'm sure your happy with it.  I on the other hand like the asynchronous technology.  It's a natural progression, plus I was just sharing my opinion. 
   
  Also I never said one was better than the other now did I?  I said there is better out there.  That's a true statement.  The question wasn't about circuit board design, it was specifically about the Adaptive / Asynchronous technologies. 
   
  We all have the choice to take it or leave it.  I'll take it.  Thank you.


----------



## citraian

Is the Musical Fidelity V-DAC II good? As I said previously, I'm thinking of getting the V200 or the Soloist and I don't know which DAC to get.


----------



## Barry S

towwers said:


> Any recommendation of a good DAC for the Mjolnir or soloist? is the Schiit Modi or bifrost good enough? thanks!




The Modi really holds back the LCD2/Mjolnir combination. The Modi is terrific for what it is, an entry-level DAC, but it's flaws and limitations are very apparent out of the LCD2/Mjolnir. The Gungnir is worth the extra money if you can swing it and *perfectly* matched to the Mjolnir.


----------



## adydula

Yup , me too wish I could have several, actually over time I went thru 6 amps or so,,,buy , try...sell...finally got the O2 and got a second, one store bought from JDSLabs.
   
  So far the amps that really impressed me that are in what I would call 'affordable' for the LCD2's are the O2, V200, Burson HA160, and the WA6-SE.........
   
  Sonically to me the O2 is no slouch, but the others are built better etc...bigger, mechanically etc....but sonically they all are pretty good.
   
  Alex


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





adydula said:


> Sonically to me the O2 is no slouch, but the others are built better etc...bigger, mechanically etc...*.but sonically they all are pretty good.*
> 
> Alex


 
  Are they sonically the exact same?


----------



## adydula

Boy..thats a loaded question...
   
  To me you can blind testing and I would have a very hard time telling them apart....
   
  now what?
   
  Alex


----------



## JamesHuntington

Quote: 





citraian said:


> Is the Musical Fidelity V-DAC II good? As I said previously, I'm thinking of getting the V200 or the Soloist and I don't know which DAC to get.


 
  The v-dac is a quality product that won't disappoint you. I have the Wyred For Sound uDac and I love that it's made in the USA. It's not the DAC-2 but it's designed by the same person and gets the same warranty. Look at all the inputs on the udac. I use mine almost like a pre-amp, as i have my Computer, CD player and TV hooked up to it and can switch between each with the flip of a switch. Also see the mpre, ill post a link.  It's $1099- but it looks very useful, something you could use for a long time. Just read the stats.
   
  http://www.wyred4sound.com/webapps/p/74030/117839/618197

 http://www.wyred4sound.com/webapps/p/74030/117839/803982

 http://www.wyred4sound.com/webapps/category/74030/117839/18157


----------



## adydula

I dont really care if the dac is asynchronous or adaptive...as long as it does its job very well and there are dacs of both technologies that do this very well.
   
  Old, new. natural progression ...dont really care....just do it well....
   
  Its your money and choice for sure....
   
  All the best
  Alex


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





adydula said:


> Boy..thats a loaded question...
> 
> To me you can blind testing and I would have a very hard time telling them apart....
> 
> ...


 
  Not really at all.
   
  So yes, they do sound the same.
   
  Nothing.


----------



## adydula

Yup...at least to me....so whats next?
   
  Cost??
   
  Price / Performance?
   
  Alex


----------



## MatsudaMan

Quote: 





citraian said:


> Is the Musical Fidelity V-DAC II good? As I said previously, I'm thinking of getting the V200 or the Soloist and I don't know which DAC to get.


 
  I have the V-DAC with the Soloist and it's a great combo.  I'm actually getting the VDAC MKII and V-PSU II today, so I'll have to post some impressions on the difference between the original with Pangea PSU vs. the MKII with VPSU.  I upgraded mainly because the original didn't have 24bit 192 asynchronous capability....so if it sounds the same, I'll still be happy because I really love the sound of the original v-dac.


----------



## GrowthValue

I absolutely agree with you, pp312. People who really have been in real concert hall to listen to classical music will never associate brightness with classical music. Real concert hall sound is dark. Bass and mids are predominant while highs are subject to substantial roll-off. I suspect those who claim LCD2 are not good with classical music are those casual classical music listeners. Before they have a real concert hall experience, they feel classical music is all about huge soundstage and spiking highs from violins. At least, I still remember my first concert hall experience really makes me stunned. That's the time I feel my HD650 really lacks the real life bass.
  Quote: 





pp312 said:


> . So why are so many people insisting the LCD-2 is not at its best with classical? Those same people also tend to say that brighter phones are better for classical, but why? I don't associate classical with brightness, and the systems of most of the classical lovers I know are anything but bright. In fact I'd associate the need for a healthy treble output more with certain popular genres. So it's all a bit of a mystery to me, and not the only one on Head-Fi either.


----------



## GrowthValue

Soundstage is in your recording. LCD2 is just sound what the recording sounds like. I have tons of classical recordings. Some has huge soundstage while the others don't. If Audeze makes LCD2 have a enlarged soundstage, my good recordings will sound bad. 
   
  Quote: 





k3ct said:


> Sound-staging is certainly the LCD2's primary weakness for me... imaging-wise, it's superb but classical symphony needs an airier presentation to truly shine for me as otherwise you're gonna miss the illusion of grandeur. Soundstage is smaller than ideal with the LCD2.


----------



## Towwers

Quote: 





growthvalue said:


> I absolutely agree with you, pp312. People who really have been in real concert hall to listen to classical music will never associate brightness with classical music. Real concert hall sound is dark. Bass and mids are predominant while highs are subject to substantial roll-off. I suspect those who claim LCD2 are not good with classical music are those casual classical music listeners. Before they have a real concert hall experience, they feel classical music is all about huge soundstage and spiking highs from violins. At least, I still remember my first concert hall experience really makes me stunned. That's the time I feel my HD650 really lacks the real life bass.


 
  I agree real concerts are a lot more dark, however, I don´t know why classical/ instrumental music sounds a lot better in bright headphones, like for example the Grados. I think the string and air instruments have more life with the bright headphones. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  On the other hand, using my LCD2 and listening to classical music is a lot more close to the real thing.


----------



## LugBug1

Quote: 





citraian said:


> Is the Musical Fidelity V-DAC II good? As I said previously, I'm thinking of getting the V200 or the Soloist and I don't know which DAC to get.


 
   
  Quote: 





matsudaman said:


> I have the V-DAC with the Soloist and it's a great combo.  I'm actually getting the VDAC MKII and V-PSU II today, so I'll have to post some impressions on the difference between the original with Pangea PSU vs. the MKII with VPSU.  I upgraded mainly because the original didn't have 24bit 192 asynchronous capability....so if it sounds the same, I'll still be happy because I really love the sound of the original v-dac.


 
  I'd be really intersted to read your impressions too. I'm a big fan of the Vdac1 and still use it regularly now. It's such a great little dac, a true hifi bargain. The new one uses a different dac chip the burr brown DSD1796 over the original old but classic 1792. I do use Vdac through optical though as this is far better imo than the usb. Though this may be better now with the asynchronous add on.


----------



## GrowthValue

I agree that LCD2 makes classical recording more like real thing. First, the deep and textured bass first replicate the concert hall experience. Second, the high frequencies are still very detailed although subject to strong roll-off in a concert hall. Some dark headphones such as HD650 roll off highs but do not retain the level of detail. LCD2 compensate this area better.
   
  Quote: 





towwers said:


> I agree real concerts are a lot more dark, however, I don´t know why classical/ instrumental music sounds a lot better in bright headphones, like for example the Grados. I think the string and air instruments have more life with the bright headphones.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## JamesHuntington

Quote: 





lugbug1 said:


> I'd be really intersted to read your impressions too. I'm a big fan of the Vdac1 and still use it regularly now. It's such a great little dac, a true hifi bargain. The new one uses a different dac chip the burr brown DSD1796 over the original old but classic 1792. I do use Vdac through optical though as this is far better imo than the usb. Though this may be better now with the asynchronous add on.


 
  It's not the chip but what you do with it that really matters.
   
  As for using optical, it may be better than usb, but you can't use it to stream music from your computer.


----------



## LugBug1

Quote: 





jameshuntington said:


> It's not the chip but what you do with it that really matters.
> 
> As for using optical, it may be better than usb, but you can't use it to stream music from your computer.


 
  Absolutely  and what the vdac1 does with it is brilliant for the price and size of the thing.
   
  A lot of computers have a toslink-out now so you can stream music via optical. Also there are many USB to SPDIF convertors available for this purpose. Thats what I use and it clocks the data from the usb ready for any digital input, means you can hook up any dac.


----------



## JamesHuntington

Quote: 





lugbug1 said:


> Absolutely  and what the vdac1 does with it is brilliant for the price and size of the thing.
> 
> A lot of computers have a toslink-out now so you can stream music via optical. Also there are many USB to SPDIF convertors available for this purpose. Thats what I use and it clocks the data from the usb ready for any digital input, means you can hook up any dac.


 

 I guess if your sound card has toslink you can. I'm not sure how it matters if your coming from a computer from a USB or Tos. You could be using that toslink as an input on the dac for another unit, like a CD player. I integrated all my components to go through my dac, then they go into a V-can headphone amp and out to my headphones and receiver. The V-can with rca output is useful for that. I hate to say there's no benefit of toslink over USB for streaming tracks from a computer, but I don't think any of us could hear the difference. Maybe, maybe if you're recording studio tracks and listening for background noise in samples or something (some people do this.) I read the first 26 pages of this thread:  http://www.head-fi.org/t/415361/24bit-vs-16bit-the-myth-exploded 
  and maybe I'm assuming you won't really get to use that 24bit 192khz your dac may be promising. Anyway, I would love to have a conversation with the op of that thread and to thank him for confusing me, though I am blissfully confused.


----------



## LugBug1

Quote: 





jameshuntington said:


> I guess if your sound card has toslink you can. I'm not sure how it matters if your coming from a computer from a USB or Tos. You could be using that toslink as an input on the dac for another unit, like a CD player. I integrated all my components to go through my dac, then they go into a V-can headphone amp and out to my headphones and receiver. The V-can with rca output is useful for that. I hate to say there's no benefit of toslink over USB for streaming tracks from a computer, but I don't think any of us could hear the difference. Maybe, maybe if you're recording studio tracks and listening for background noise in samples or something (some people do this.) I read the first 26 pages of this thread:  http://www.head-fi.org/t/415361/24bit-vs-16bit-the-myth-exploded
> and maybe I'm assuming you won't really get to use that 24bit 192khz your dac may be promising. Anyway, I would love to have a conversation with the op of that thread and to thank him for confusing me, though I am blissfully confused.


 
  I agree it is confusing  But its not really the 16 or 24bit that matters when using usb. The problem with using usb straight to dac is the noise from the USB port and also the data is kind of churned out causing jitter (another big argument ha). There are two benefits from using optical via usb to spdif converter when using computers. First the data is clocked ready back to its original state (wether 16 or 24 bits) and so the dac can accept it direct to the digital input without having to do the reclock and decifer what the data is. And most receiver chips in usb dacs that are'nt asynchronous aren't the best and will cut down the bits if they are higher than 16 bit. The other is because optical is "light", it acts as a kind of cut off point for the noisy insides of computers because that will only travel through metal.


----------



## JamesHuntington

Quote: 





lugbug1 said:


> I agree it is confusing  But its not really the 16 or 24bit that matters when using usb. The problem with using usb straight to dac is the noise from the USB port and also the data is kind of churned out causing jitter (another big argument ha). There are two benefits from using optical via usb to spdif converter when using computers. First the data is clocked ready back to its original state (wether 16 or 24 bits) and so the dac can accept it direct to the digital input without having to do the reclock and decifer what the data is. And most receiver chips in usb dacs that are'nt asynchronous aren't the best and will cut down the bits if they are higher than 16 bit. The other is because optical is "light", it acts as a kind of cut off point for the noisy insides of computers because that will only travel through metal.


 
  After reading a little, maybe it depends on the computer, soundcard/software and/or the dac. If cpu is overloaded then it may matter more with usb. I notice with my uDac that tos input says 24bit 192khz and usb is 24bit 92khz, but I don't have tos on my laptop so I guess I cant AB. Heres a thread with all kinds of back and forth http://www.head-fi.org/t/527442/optical-toslink-vs-usb-which-connection-is-better-to-connect-a-dac
  and here is supposed proof optical is not always better
 http://www.stereophile.com/content/musical-fidelity-v-dac-da-processor-measurements


----------



## LugBug1

Quote: 





jameshuntington said:


> After reading a little, maybe it depends on the computer, soundcard/software and/or the dac. If cpu is overloaded then it may matter more with usb. I notice with my uDac that tos input says 24bit 192khz and usb is 24bit 92khz, but I don't have tos on my laptop so I guess I cant AB. Heres a thread with all kinds of back and forth http://www.head-fi.org/t/527442/optical-toslink-vs-usb-which-connection-is-better-to-connect-a-dac
> and here is supposed proof optical is not always better
> http://www.stereophile.com/content/musical-fidelity-v-dac-da-processor-measurements


 
  Yeah I've never noticed any difference at all between 92khz and 192. And I only notice a difference with 24 bits over 16 when listening to HD 24 bit recordings. I've read that Sterophile piece before and it does make an interesting read. I must stress that my prefered digital connection is coaxial or BNC and only use optical when I feel it does actually sound better, and the Vdac is a very good example. I know that Musical fidelity optimised it for optical use over the other inputs so this may be the case. My ears tell me it's better so thats all I care about


----------



## Francoy

All this talking about DACs... I thought this thread was about amplifiers?! Silly me


----------



## longbowbbs

Quote:


francoy said:


> All this talking about DACs... I thought this thread was about amplifiers?! Silly me


 
  After 5000+ posts I think they killed that horse....
   




   
  It'll get back on track as some new interesting amps come out, like the upcoming Decware Taboo MK 3.....


----------



## dmcs414

How many folks use a turntable as a primary source in their LCD-2 rig, and does this (or should it) influence the choice of amp? Many would seem to agree that some amps (V200,Mjolnir,etc) are well known to be great pairings with these phones, but does this apply regardless of whether the source is digital or analog?


----------



## MorbidToaster

dmcs414 said:


> How many folks use a turntable as a primary source in their LCD-2 rig, and does this (or should it) influence the choice of amp? Many would seem to agree that some amps (V200,Mjolnir,etc) are well known to be great pairings with these phones, but does this apply regardless of whether the source is digital or analog?




It really depends on the TT rig. Analog isn't necessarily 'warm' all the time. Though the V200 wouldn't be my pick with a TT rig just in case you do as it's warmer than Mjolnir.


----------



## JamesHuntington

Quote: 





francoy said:


> All this talking about DACs... I thought this thread was about amplifiers?! Silly me


 
    
  I was trying to answer a question. And btw, what amp did you recommend? 8ooo000OOOO
   
  Quote:


lugbug1 said:


> Yeah I've never noticed any difference at all between 92khz and 192. And I only notice a difference with 24 bits over 16 when listening to HD 24 bit recordings. I've read that Sterophile piece before and it does make an interesting read. I must stress that my prefered digital connection is coaxial or BNC and only use optical when I feel it does actually sound better, and the Vdac is a very good example. I know that Musical fidelity optimised it for optical use over the other inputs so this may be the case. My ears tell me it's better so thats all I care about


 
   
       I can't disagree and wish my computer had optical so I could test it.
  Quote: 





longbowbbs said:


> After 5000+ posts I think they killed that horse....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  When beating a dead horse, what amp do I want to use with lcd2 to silence the thuds?


----------



## Man7rah

Quote: 





skylab said:


> There can never be consensus on this topic.  Some people won't consider tubes; others won't consider solid state.  Some can;t spend more than $500; for others, money is no object.  Even given just those two factors, before we ever discuss actual synergy with the LCD-2, you have no chance at consensus.
> 
> For me, the ideal amp for the LCD-2 is the Decware Mini-Torii.  Lots of power, sounds great, not horribly expensive.  The downsides are that it really isn't good for using with other types of headphones, just other planars like the HE-6, and that while it's worth the money IMO, it's still $1,500.
> 
> I actually prefer the Leben CS300X with the LCD-2, but at the current US price of $3,800, it's getting really hard to recommend, given how good the Decware is at $1,500.


 
  I really like your view on it, would you say the Cavalli Audio Liquid Fire fits in between the two with price/performance levels?


----------



## MorbidToaster

man7rah said:


> I really like your view on it, would you say the Cavalli Audio Liquid Fire fits in between the two with price/performance levels?




I think the LF puts the Leben on blast for less money. No speaker amp though. 

The Liquid Fire has extordinary synergy with the LCD series.


----------



## Towwers

What's the difference (sonically) between the Schiit Modi vs gungnir DAC? does an expensive DAC really makes a difference compared to a cheap one?


----------



## Barry S

towwers said:


> What's the difference (sonically) between the Schiit Modi vs gungnir DAC? does an expensive DAC really makes a difference compared to a cheap one?




The Gungnir resolves more detail in recordings compared to the Modi. With a low-end headphone, you might not notice a big difference, but because the LCD-2 is so high resolution--a high quality DAC and amp makes a very noticeable improvement in sound quality. I don't find the Modi to be a good match for the LCD-2, although others may feel differently, particularly if they don't have a higher quality DAC as a comparison.


----------



## Francoy

Quote: 





francoy said:


> All this talking about DACs... I thought this thread was about amplifiers?! Silly me


 
   
  I was trying to answer a question. And btw, what amp did you recommend? 8ooo000OOOO

   
   
  I haven’t made an enormous amount of comparisons, but I’m satisfied with my Decware Taboo.
   
  The stock tubes are absolute garbage to my ears though, so there was a bit of work/research done on my part to get the audio bliss I’m now getting from it.


----------



## rated1975

francoy said:


> I haven’t made an enormous amount of comparisons, but I’m satisfied with my Decware Taboo.




Francoy, how would you describe the sound of your Taboo with the chosen tubes?
Can you offer any comparisons to other amps you have heard with the LCD-2's?


----------



## cswann1

Quote: 





growthvalue said:


> I absolutely agree with you, pp312. People who really have been in real concert hall to listen to classical music will never associate brightness with classical music. Real concert hall sound is dark. Bass and mids are predominant while highs are subject to substantial roll-off. I suspect those who claim LCD2 are not good with classical music are those casual classical music listeners. Before they have a real concert hall experience, they feel classical music is all about huge soundstage and spiking highs from violins. At least, I still remember my first concert hall experience really makes me stunned. That's the time I feel my HD650 really lacks the real life bass.


 
   
   
  Concert halls are typically poor places for listening to music.  Some are much worse than others but even the best will add unwanted reflections/resonances.  Higher frequencies have much higher decay than lower which is the reason for the "darker" overall sound.
   
   Many folks like brighter headphones for classical because it lets them hear more easily all the great upper frequency information that is lost in live performances much of the time.  Lets face it, how many of us get to listen to a string quartet at 3m in an acoustically inert room?  This is however what a good recording can closely represent. Many like the accentuation of information that they typically don't get to hear, but it's a fine line you walk with bright cans, as in my experience bright often walks hand in hand with more fatigue.


----------



## Francoy

Quote: 





rated1975 said:


> Francoy, how would you describe the sound of your Taboo with the chosen tubes?
> Can you offer any comparisons to other amps you have heard with the LCD-2's?


 
   
  Well, I can confirm to you that it is a significant step up from a monster Outlaw receiver, an entry NAD receiver and also a few Pioneer, Musical Fidelity and Onkyo oldies that I have lying around here. Compared to my Musical fidelity X-can v3, it’s also very impressive (wider stage, better clarity and all out sheer brutal power). But that is about it comparison-wise, I don’t have friends/relatives with decent headphone setups. I went for the Taboo based on comments from people and the fact that I have a fetish for all things wood.
   
  Regarding the tubes, I’m far from done with the rolling. The stock configuration was very treble centric to my ears, so I ditch that pretty quickly in favour of something different. At the moment I can only safely assume that the rectifier is settled upon (Tung Sol NOS 5Y3GT). But the rest is a work in progress because I now have a very mid-centric sound that I fine tune with EQ. But with the EQ, I get a sound that is very wide, precise and frighteningly powerful and I get lost in the music and the tube hunt get’s easily forgotten.
   
  I you are interested in more info regarding the Taboo here’s a handy link: http://www.head-fi.org/t/535131/review-decware-taboo-an-amazing-achievment


----------



## Sylafari

Taking a blind leap of faith and going to preorder a WA7 for my LCD-2s, praying for a miracle here >.>


----------



## Towwers

Quote: 





sylafari said:


> Taking a blind leap of faith and going to preorder a WA7 for my LCD-2s, praying for a miracle here >.>


 
  I will pray for you Sylafari, I want that amp for my LCD2 too. Give us your first impressions as soon as you receive it. Good Luck!!


----------



## Asr

Quote: 





cswann1 said:


> Concert halls are typically poor places for listening to music.  Some are much worse than others but even the best will add unwanted reflections/resonances.  Higher frequencies have much higher decay than lower which is the reason for the "darker" overall sound.
> 
> Many folks like brighter headphones for classical because it lets them hear more easily all the great upper frequency information that is lost in live performances much of the time.  Lets face it, how many of us get to listen to a string quartet at 3m in an acoustically inert room?  This is however what a good recording can closely represent. Many like the accentuation of information that they typically don't get to hear, but it's a fine line you walk with bright cans, as in my experience bright often walks hand in hand with more fatigue.


 
   
  I definitely agree that "concert halls are typically poor places for listening to music", and moreover will add that concert halls are _really bad_ for listening to classical music. Of course, most live classical music is performed _in _concert halls, so it's also inescapable. I feel sorry for anyone who listens to classical music who's only heard it live in a concert hall, and thinks that's how headphones should present the music - as in, that "sitting away from the orchestra in a concert hall" kind of thinking. Because more than likely, in most classical recording sessions, the microphones are literally placed over the orchestra (suspended from the ceiling), or really close around it on stands. It's actually more accurate to not have a fake soundstage imposed on the music (I'm looking at you HD800!).
   
  I have a bias here, as I've been able to play _in _orchestras before and know how close the entire orchestra can sound relative to the first-violin section (really close!). I view headphones that capture the sense of the orchestra as a massive entity virtually surrounding you to be more accurate than those that don't - and a headphone that puts you in the conductor's spot is even better, because that gives you the best "view" of the orchestra, aurally speaking. The entire orchestra up-close is something most people don't get to hear, which is too bad, because it's awesome-sounding. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Concert halls are so bad for listening to classical that I'd actually recommend that folks listen to a recording on headphones, or speakers as the case might be. Listening at home conveys more accuracy than buying expensive tickets to see any orchestra, regardless of how talented it is. Not that I'm discounting seeing the talent of live musicians - just that the acoustics/imaging and frequency balance will tend to be more accurate through a recording and listening at home.


----------



## LugBug1

Quote: 





asr said:


> I definitely agree that "concert halls are typically poor places for listening to music", and moreover will add that concert halls are _really bad_ for listening to classical music. Of course, most live classical music is performed _in _concert halls, so it's also inescapable. I feel sorry for anyone who listens to classical music who's only heard it live in a concert hall, and thinks that's how headphones should present the music - as in, that "sitting away from the orchestra in a concert hall" kind of thinking. Because more than likely, in most classical recording sessions, the microphones are literally placed over the orchestra (suspended from the ceiling), or really close around it on stands. It's actually more accurate to not have a fake soundstage imposed on the music (I'm looking at you HD800!).
> 
> I have a bias here, as I've been able to play _in _orchestras before and know how close the entire orchestra can sound relative to the first-violin section (really close!). I view headphones that capture the sense of the orchestra as a massive entity virtually surrounding you to be more accurate than those that don't - and a headphone that puts you in the conductor's spot is even better, because that gives you the best "view" of the orchestra, aurally speaking. The entire orchestra up-close is something most people don't get to hear, which is too bad, because it's awesome-sounding.
> 
> ...


 
  I agree with a lot of that, but I also love going to classical concerts and there are some brilliant halls that can provide exceptional sound aswell. I'm a little spoiled in this area as I have this on my doorstep.

   
  And it looks like this in the biggest hall.

   
  I've seen from Mozart to Wagner staged here and the sound has always been very good.
   
  I think for peeps who love going to concerts and the thrill i gives, no hifi experience can recreate this. Headphones for e.g will give you a brilliant window onto the music to study more closely, but this is unrealistic in the sense that all the great symphonies/operas were written for a concert hall in mind. With no microphones, only room acoustic. If Beethoven could have used studio's and placed mic's would he have wrote in the same manner that he did, with massive layers of strings and timpani? Recording studios can do what they like to change/manipulate the sound to emphasize certain aspects or dull others but in the concert hall you get the orchestra in front of you (if you have good seat) warts n'all and the cellos come from where the cello's are and the soprano sounds where she is on stage. And when the crescendo builds with the orchestra in full swing, you feel the vibrations through your whole body and feel the music like you are part of it. It's real and tangible.
  Oh well, back to my LCD2's ....


----------



## JamesHuntington

A mixed recording with expensive equipment is going to be better in your headphones than live show because they process and fix the flaws and mix the sounds on the concert albums you buy, etc. It seem like an amp with no coloration will give the best results. I know W4S uses class A output for a uDacHD  headphone out, but their bigger amps I thought were class D. Would a class D amp be good for headphones? I've heard it's close to Class A but more efficient.


----------



## LugBug1

Quote: 





jameshuntington said:


> *A mixed recording with expensive equipment is going to be better in your headphones than live show because they process and fix the flaws and mix the sounds on the concert albums you buy, etc.* It seem like an amp with no coloration will give the best results. I know W4S uses class A output for a uDacHD  headphone out, but their bigger amps I thought were class D. Would a class D amp be good for headphones? I've heard it's close to Class A but more efficient.


 
  Yes. Infact, I don't know why we still have concerts anymore... Not when we can listen to recordings of them (with all the flaws fixed!) through our headphones.
   
   
(tehehe)


----------



## MatsudaMan

Quote: 





jameshuntington said:


> A mixed recording with expensive equipment is going to be better in your headphones than live show because they process and fix the flaws and mix the sounds on the concert albums you buy, etc. It seem like an amp with no coloration will give the best results. I know W4S uses class A output for a uDacHD  headphone out, but their bigger amps I thought were class D. Would a class D amp be good for headphones? I've heard it's close to Class A but more efficient.


 
  ??????????????????????????????????????????????.........REEEEEEEEEEEEEeeeeeeeeally?  Did you say that listening to your headphones is better than a live show?  That's like saying that looking at a Van Gogh through a calibrated monitor is better than seeing it in person with your own eyes.  That's like saying virtual sex is better than the feeling of.... uh....You need to get out, bro.


----------



## MorbidToaster

There are a lot of bands that sound better on the album than they do live...Live crowds can also take away from the live recordings, too. 
   
  There are a ton of good reasons as to why someone would prefer listening at home than at a concert. Noise levels is a pretty good reason, too. Why pay $30 for a ticket to see a band just to have to muffle your sound with ear plugs (or risk deafness)?
   
  Quote: 





matsudaman said:


> ??????????????????????????????????????????????.........REEEEEEEEEEEEEeeeeeeeeally?  Did you say that listening to your headphones is better than a live show?  That's like saying that looking at a Van Gogh through a calibrated monitor is better than seeing it in person with your own eyes.  That's like saying virtual sex is better than the feeling of.... uh....You need to get out, bro.


----------



## NZheadcase

Live concerts, whether orchestral or contemporary music continue to be successful because it gives you something headphones cant. Every one should go to a live concert at least once a year. 

While live concerts wont give you the technicalities and micro detail our hobby gives, it does give you a lot that headphones won't. The adrenaline rush of cheering for your fav artists with thousands of fellow fans, the physical and emotional experience of feeling the music live with no cables and tethers. You get to see the performance itself with your own two eyes so the immersion is better(at least for me).

And seeing music performed live will help you appreciate the music more when you listen on your rig at home. 

My two cents anyway.


----------



## LugBug1

I think we're straying from the point here. Some may prefer watching movies at home in their fave armchair and 40 inch plasma rather than going to the cinema. Or even visiting an art gallery online from the comfort of their bed... 
   
  But from a pure audio perspective...
   
  If I could have say Julian lloyd Webber playing the Bach Cello suites in my living room (or a good concert hall) or listen to any other recording in my headphones, I know which one I'd choose. The real thing.


----------



## MatsudaMan

morbidtoaster said:


> There are a lot of bands that sound better on the album than they do live...Live crowds can also take away from the live recordings, too.
> 
> There are a ton of good reasons as to why someone would prefer listening at home than at a concert. Noise levels is a pretty good reason, too. Why pay $30 for a ticket to see a band just to have to muffle your sound with ear plugs (or risk deafness)?



I don't watch "bands", I listen to symphony orchestras and chamber music or piano recitals, etc...where the are no "crowds", just people who silently take in the magic that no headphone can do real justice to.

But, this is something a hipster could never in a lifetime understand.


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





matsudaman said:


> I don't watch "bands", I listen to symphony orchestras and chamber music or piano recitals, etc...where the are no "crowds", just people who silently take in the magic that no headphone can do real justice to.
> 
> But, this is something a hipster could never in a lifetime understand.


 
  You're not an ass-hole or anything. No, you kinda are. But not really.


----------



## Darkbeat

Quote: 





paradoxper said:


> You're not an ass-hole or anything. No, you kinda are. But not really.


 
   
  I agree with him that live (orchestral) performances can't be matched by any headphone, but you're right. He's being an ass-hole. Maybe.


----------



## longbowbbs

I enjoy a live event (Classical, Rock concert, whatever...) It helps me recalibrate.....me....Plus each are their own reward and circumstance. I love HP's and all my gear, but live stuff still has "Event" status for me....I have a great home theater as well, but I still like going to the movies. Different things entirely as I see it.
   
  YMMV....


----------



## dagothur

Quote: 





matsudaman said:


> I don't watch "bands", I listen to symphony orchestras and chamber music or piano recitals, etc...where the are no "crowds", just people who silently take in the magic that no headphone can do real justice to.
> 
> But, this is something a hipster could never in a lifetime understand.


 
  I only listen to music sent back in time, as music tainted by being heard after it's been made is not pure enough for my ears.


----------



## JamesHuntington

They used to record concerts straight to disc, but it was was flawed even with the best performers and concert hall. I think you can digitally record and mix a live performance in a studio on the best equipment with no audience in a controlled situation, then put that on a disc and it will be better sound than live. That's what I meant. Most concerts you go to you don't get the same quality of instruments and microphones they use in a studio.
  As far sex and paintings go; looking at a painting for hours in a museum without interruption would be impossible; and sex can be better in my mind than in real life at least 20% of the time (give or take a few percent). In a perfect world we can do everything digitally, though I know it's not possible. Don't worry about me not getting out, I go out all the time
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and uh oh that too.


----------



## LugBug1

Quote: 





jameshuntington said:


> They used to record concerts straight to disc, but it was was flawed even with the best performers and concert hall. I think you can digitally record and mix a live performance in a studio on the best equipment with no audience in a controlled situation, then put that on a disc and it will be better sound than live. That's what I meant. Most concerts you go to you don't get the same quality of instruments and microphones they use in a studio.
> As far sex and paintings go; looking at a painting for hours in a museum without interruption would be impossible; and *sex can be better in my mind than in real life at least 20% of the time (give or take a few percent). *In a perfect world we can do everything digitally, though I know it's not possible. Don't worry about me not getting out, I go out all the time
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Yup I'll go with that. Infact I'd knock it up to 80% (been married quite a few years) Actually while we're being honest, I'd rather take my computer to bed these days.... A lot less mess.


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





lugbug1 said:


> Yup I'll go with that. Infact I'd knock it up to 80% (been married quite a few years) Actually while we're being honest, I'd rather take my computer to bed these days..*.. A lot less mess*.


 
  You mean more.


----------



## LugBug1

Quote: 





paradoxper said:


> You mean more.


----------



## longbowbbs

another proof for the Jellybean theory.....


----------



## LugBug1

Erm.. I'm thinking about getting a new amp for me LCD2's. Has anyone got any recommendations?


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





asr said:


> I definitely agree that "concert halls are typically poor places for listening to music", and moreover will add that concert halls are _really bad_ for listening to classical music. Of course, most live classical music is performed _in _concert halls, so it's also inescapable. I feel sorry for anyone who listens to classical music who's only heard it live in a concert hall, and thinks that's how headphones should present the music - as in, that "sitting away from the orchestra in a concert hall" kind of thinking. Because more than likely, in most classical recording sessions, the microphones are literally placed over the orchestra (suspended from the ceiling), or really close around it on stands. It's actually more accurate to not have a fake soundstage imposed on the music (I'm looking at you HD800!).
> 
> I have a bias here, as I've been able to play _in _orchestras before and know how close the entire orchestra can sound relative to the first-violin section (really close!). I view headphones that capture the sense of the orchestra as a massive entity virtually surrounding you to be more accurate than those that don't - and a headphone that puts you in the conductor's spot is even better, because that gives you the best "view" of the orchestra, aurally speaking. The entire orchestra up-close is something most people don't get to hear, which is too bad, because it's awesome-sounding.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Polar opposite here,
   
*No classical recording whatsoever of any vintage or recording technique comes even close to the sound of the Boston Symphony Orchestra live.*
   
  It ain't about no fancy 3D soundstaging, it's all about this _intangible, very real, very honest, very organic, very beautiful_ presence that a live orchestra has.


----------



## longbowbbs

Quote: 





lugbug1 said:


> Erm.. I'm thinking about getting a new amp for me LCD2's. Has anyone got any recommendations?


 
   
  Decware Taboo....Fantastic....
   
  http://www.decware.com/newsite/TABOO.htm


----------



## MorbidToaster

Do you only drink the finest wines and smoke cuban cigars too? Pretentious much? Jeez.
   
  I'll of course agree that I'd take music like this over headphones if not for proper dynamic range alone. 
   
  Also, you do realize that the way this post is written makes you sound more like a hipster, right? It's a little ridiculous to talk down to someone that goes to see bands...
   
  Why the hell did you call me a hipster, now that we're on the subject? 
   
  Quote: 





matsudaman said:


> I don't watch "bands", I listen to symphony orchestras and chamber music or piano recitals, etc...where the are no "crowds", just people who silently take in the magic that no headphone can do real justice to.
> 
> But, this is something a hipster could never in a lifetime understand.


----------



## Man7rah

So, from what I'm seeing here in the last few pages, there are literally noone that has new experience/info about any combinations as just about EVERY good one has been exhausted to death? no?


----------



## JamesHuntington

As a non professional listener of classical music, I have to guess that there is a true expert in control of every mix/produced album ever made who gives a thumbs up to the final product. Why is that? Because you can only be in one place at one time in a concert hall. If you watch the same concert from two different angles/places you will get a different perspectives. It kinda reminds me of a guy I read on another thread that wanted technology to progress to the point where he could enjoy a trip to the ocean in his living room. Nature is impossible to recreate perfectly except by nature itself. Such as sex, there's smells and sensations you can't enjoy with only one or two senses. Eyes and ears only do what they do; and people are at most a visual species. Maybe some stax electrostats might be better than orthos for some things, but my main thought holds if you consider professionally mixed albums and hearing the full experience. I'm not saying you get everything on headphones that you get live. But I would say that what a recording takes away from the live performance is purposeful and is done for better sound quality. So, it's supposed to sound better. IMO it does


----------



## Argo Duck

^ I suggest the recording is another of the 'perspectives' you mention.

What bothers me is it's presumably (or necessarily) not the same perspective the musicians - who shape the performance - hear. So the audience, musicians, and recording engineers hear different versions of the same event.

What's "best" then? Does it, for example, 'improve' a painting to view it from a different angle than the painter painted it?

Or in other words - what do we mean by a musical event, and what are we trying to recreate with our audio systems? The excitement and discovery the audience felt (or didn't), such as Chris J and others mentioned a page back? What the musicians experienced? The abstract idea embodied in the musical notes, with the musicians merely there to reproduce them? Or something else?

Dunno. Just thinking out loud here...carry on.


----------



## TGTBATQ

So, I finally ordered my Lyr(GE 6BZ7/6BQ7A tubes) and plugged it up using my audio-gd NFB15.1 as a DAC, holy crap, the difference is absolutely breathtaking!
  Highly recommended on my end.


----------



## dagothur

Quote: 





man7rah said:


> So, from what I'm seeing here in the last few pages, there are literally noone that has new experience/info about any combinations as just about EVERY good one has been exhausted to death? no?


 
  Well, I've still got my NFB, and the balanced from that is pretty darn good.  I can run my Q701s and LCD-2s through a splitter run single ended without much strain on the unit.


----------



## Rawrbington

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> Do you only drink the finest wines and smoke cuban cigars too? Pretentious much? Jeez.
> 
> I'll of course agree that I'd take music like this over headphones if not for proper dynamic range alone.
> 
> ...


 
  cause you're a hipster.
   
  Im thinking he's trying to produce a reaction.
  But who knows.
  Just saw a live band last night.
  It was fantastic.
  And the human interaction, the smells, the beer, the beer spilt on my shirt, the random odor of marijuana, the drunk girl falling over, all of it... was awesome
   
  Love the LCD2
  But they can't replicate that.
  And neither can a piano recital lol


----------



## Darkbeat

Quote: 





lugbug1 said:


> Erm.. I'm thinking about getting a new amp for me LCD2's. Has anyone got any recommendations?


 
   
  You know what they say bro, great minds think alike. Ours do too. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
   
  I'm thinking about getting a Mjolnir, seems to compliment the Gungnir really well and I like a punchy/dynamic sound sig. Also on the potentials list is the V200 and _maybe_ the Soloist. Tube rolling sounds like far too much effort and time that could be spent cleaning my headphones instead.


----------



## LugBug1

Quote: 





darkbeat said:


> You know what they say bro, great minds think alike. Ours do too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Your not wrong there bro!
   
  Both of them are still a bit out of financial reach for me at the mo... But if it was me I'd go with the Schitt.
  I've always got two rigs running, one bedside and one in the living area. I'm content with my bedside one (Rdac and Necosoundlab v2.1). But its my "big" rig that I'm looking to improve on, and thats the C2.2 and company (Arcam black box, Vdac, modded Beresford 7510) Just need to get settled with a dac that hits the spot first then I'll be looking for a better amp. I still really like the C2, It's got such a musical presentation, very refined and smooth. I'm thinking that if I can find a more neutral and dynamic dac then I'd be happier. After all, the best amp in the world will only sound as good as the source..


----------



## Poladise

Quote: 





man7rah said:


> So, from what I'm seeing here in the last few pages, there are literally noone that has new experience/info about any combinations as just about EVERY good one has been exhausted to death? no?


 

 Well i had a home demo of the Burson Soloist, RWA Corvina and V200. Two weeks for each.
  I was least impressed with the V200, because although it had the most presence and vividness, it sounded too thick and undetailed at times with a kind of hardness and almost glassy quality to it.
   
  The Soloist had superior clarity and made to V200 sound muddy by comparison, but for me the Soloist lacked some "natural colour". A bit pale sounding.
   
  The Corvina seemed to have just as much clarity / detail, but had that slight colour and sweetness I like. It was my favourite by far. The only problem was it sounded crap at higher volume with my lcd-2 r2 (had the single ended version). Would love to hear the balanced version.
   
  For me its either going to be the new Decware Taboo MK III coming in spring or the new RWA Cassabria that replaced the Corvina. I guess this will be an improvement over the amp section of a balanced Isabellina. I'm surprised it hasnt been mentioned it on headfi yet.


----------



## Asr

Ok I'll write something on the topic subject: I recommend the HeadAmp GS-X for the LCD-2, especially in balanced mode. IMO, balanced mode kicks things up a notch on the Audeze headphones. I'd expect the GS-X MKII to be even better, but that's just a guess.
   
  Quote: 





chris j said:


> Polar opposite here,
> 
> *No classical recording whatsoever of any vintage or recording technique comes even close to the sound of the Boston Symphony Orchestra live.*
> 
> It ain't about no fancy 3D soundstaging, it's all about this _intangible, very real, very honest, very organic, very beautiful_ presence that a live orchestra has.


 
   
  Nothing in my post was meant to discount anything from the experience of seeing a live orchestra. I could just as easily make a counter-argument that a live orchestra is the ideal way to listen to classical, if I wanted to. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  But to counter your argument, the sound of any live orchestra is completely dependent on both the acoustics of a concert hall, and on the seat location, which means that unless you pay for the best seats in the house, the acoustics will more than likely be far from ideal. Listening to a recording at home can pretty much equalize that factor. I've been to lots of classical concerts myself, in which my seat location essentially sucked because it was too far away, and it took away from my enjoyment of the music's sound (not loud enough, lack of treble due to distance, etc).
   
  And no offense but I have to laugh at your "_intangible, very real, very honest, very organic, very beautiful_ presence" comment. I actually got exactly that from my Stax OII and BHSE on various recordings, and never got that feeling from any other headphones. The best-amped LCD-2 that I had (out of a B22) wasn't even remotely close. The OII/BHSE made classical music (and other genres) literally sound _real_. If I had to pick between a classical CD on the OII/BHSE and going to a concert for the "sound quality" alone, I'd go with the CD. The only reason I'd pick a concert would be to see a famous musician on tour, or if the work being performed was a particular favorite of mine, or if the orchestra was an especially good one. Having heard a fair number of different orchestras, I'd definitely say that not all of them are necessarily that good. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The best local one I've heard is the Colorado Symphony Orchestra; I've also heard NYC's, Chicago's, and San Francisco's before. Some day I'd love to see & hear the Vienna Philharmonic.


----------



## longbowbbs

I have had the privilege of attending the Sydney Opera house....Superb....Tough to carry around though. For me, I am glad I have the opportunity to do both....


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





asr said:


> Nothing in my post was meant to discount anything from the experience of seeing a live orchestra. I could just as easily make a counter-argument that a live orchestra is the ideal way to listen to classical, if I wanted to.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  No point in continuing this, I almost pity you.
  And that's the nicest thing I can think of to say.
  Although I will agree, I have sat in my share of less than optimal seats.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





argo duck said:


> ^ I suggest the recording is another of the 'perspectives' you mention.
> 
> What bothers me is it's presumably (or necessarily) not the same perspective the musicians - who shape the performance - hear. So the audience, musicians, and recording engineers hear different versions of the same event.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Just my two cents here,
  but at the end of the day, even a symphony orchestra is putting on a show.
  IMHO, the point of that particular show is for the audience to hear the performance as best they can.
  The performance is not for the musicians or the conductor, it is for the audience.
  Which is what I think Aidee is alluding to.
  And if the musicians and the conductor are enjoying the show and the audience is not, then the musicians and conductor are not projecting the essence of the performance.
  Anything else borders on self indulgence.
   
  Unfortunately, the musicians and conductor are also at the mercy of the venue.
  So if the acoustics of the hall are "not so good", then the show suffers accordingly.
   
  So what is a proper perspective for an orchestral performance?
  There are two "proper" perspectives:
  in a live performance - the audience
  for a recording - the perspective of the microphones, i.e. the perspective which is optimum for the placement of the microphones, and since the microphone is not a perfect analog of the human ear, the optimum place for microphone placement will not be the physical perspective of the audience.
  Pull the microphones too far back and the sound becomes too reverberant. Too close and it gets too dry.
   
  In a rock or pop concert, the musicians perspective cannot be trusted or employed.
  For example, from the perspective of the drummer the show sounds like (1) a drumset and (2) a monitor which is probably dominated by bass guitar, rhythm guitar and vocals and (3) any remaining ambient sound/noise.


----------



## D.Rose

What about the Bryston BHA-1, is that a good match with the LCD-2?


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





d.rose said:


> What about the Bryston BHA-1, is that a good match with the LCD-2?


 
   
  Yes it is,  Very good at that..


----------



## dmcs414

Wow, gents. This thread has reached truly epic levels of pretentiousness. Less monocle-polishing, more LCD2 ampage.


----------



## Towwers

Any amp that is good with the LCD2 and with the H800?


----------



## Anda

Quote: 





towwers said:


> Any amp that is good with the LCD2 and with the H800?


 
   
  Woo Audio WA22. I bet some of the Eddie Current offerings would be a good match too.


----------



## MorbidToaster

towwers said:


> Any amp that is good with the LCD2 and with the H800?:rolleyes:




Liquid Fire or Liquid Glass.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





dmcs414 said:


> Wow, gents. This thread has reached truly epic levels of pretentiousness. Less monocle-polishing, more LCD2 ampage.


 
   
  I don't wear a monocle.
  Just sayin'   
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Maybe I should leave you guys to your amp talk.


----------



## drews

Quote: 





towwers said:


> Any amp that is good with the LCD2 and with the H800?


 
   
  Violectric V200.


----------



## Darkbeat

Quote: 





towwers said:


> Any amp that is good with the LCD2 and with the H800?


 
   
   
  Eddie Current Super 7 and Schiit Mjolnir.


----------



## LugBug1

Quote: 





dmcs414 said:


> Wow, gents. This thread has reached truly epic levels of pretentiousness. Less monocle-polishing, more LCD2 ampage.


----------



## JamesHuntington

http://www.head-fi.org/t/593744/w4s-mini-integrated-mint-anybody-have-one-yet
  I'm saving for one of these. This is about as close to having it all you can get for under: $1500 and 8lbs. and etc. etc. etc.


----------



## Currawong

I'll throw in the Audio-gd Master 8 to the mix, but I'd honestly be surprised if it were possible to make a bad choice out of any of the serious balanced solid-state amps with output of a few Watts.


----------



## Chris J

lugbug1 said:


>




Got to the Science Forum to see some rocket polishing! LOL!


----------



## GrowthValue

When I saw you said "concert halls are typically poor places for listening to music", I know we belong to two totally different hi-fi group. For me, listening to music means listen to real life experience. I want to listen to music in a way that Beethoven wants his audience to hear. Many violin concertos have violin solo with extremely high frequency. The reason is the composers know the walls of concert hall will roll off the high frequency significantly. If you tell a composer to write something just for head-fi, I bet he will no longer use frequency as high.
   
  Anyway, I agree there are many head-fiers like you who just love the unreal music experience. That's nothing wrong with it. However, as a joke, there are also many folks who will trade their very hi end music gears with you if you can provide unlimited concert tickets to them. 
  Quote: 





cswann1 said:


> *Concert halls are typically poor places for listening to music. * Some are much worse than others but even the best will add unwanted reflections/resonances.  Higher frequencies have much higher decay than lower which is the reason for the "darker" overall sound.
> 
> Many folks like brighter headphones for classical because it lets them hear more easily all the great upper frequency information that is lost in live performances much of the time.  Lets face it, how many of us get to listen to a string quartet at 3m in an acoustically inert room?  This is however what a good recording can closely represent. Many like the accentuation of information that they typically don't get to hear, but it's a fine line you walk with bright cans, as in my experience bright often walks hand in hand with more fatigue.


----------



## GrowthValue

[size=10pt]Unfortunately, you miss a big point of classical music even though you have played in orchestras before. Classical music composers in 18th century have no idea about several hundred years later many people will just use their headphones to listen to their musics. As a result, those composers composed music that will be listened in concert halls, i.e. the music played in concert hall is the music that the composers want audience to hear. To do so, composers would write violins solos with significantly higher notes in order to let the concert hall walls roll off them. [/size]
  [size=10pt] [/size]
  [size=10pt]Overall, I regret that as a former orchestra player you prefer technical side of the sound to the real feeling of the music. Also, when I saw you said "Listening at home conveys more accuracy than buying expensive tickets to see any orchestra, regardless of how talented it is", I suspect your short orchestra playing experience may be an unpleasant one, which makes you do not want to ever be present in a concert hall again. I can accept that many people prefer the hi-fi sound to the live concert, but downplaying the talent of an orchestra will not come from a real classical music fan.[/size]
   
  Quote: 





asr said:


> I definitely agree that "concert halls are typically poor places for listening to music", and moreover will add that concert halls are _really bad_ for listening to classical music. Of course, most live classical music is performed _in _concert halls, so it's also inescapable. I feel sorry for anyone who listens to classical music who's only heard it live in a concert hall, and thinks that's how headphones should present the music - as in, that "sitting away from the orchestra in a concert hall" kind of thinking. Because more than likely, in most classical recording sessions, the microphones are literally placed over the orchestra (suspended from the ceiling), or really close around it on stands. It's actually more accurate to not have a fake soundstage imposed on the music (I'm looking at you HD800!).
> 
> I have a bias here, as I've been able to play _in _orchestras before and know how close the entire orchestra can sound relative to the first-violin section (really close!). I view headphones that capture the sense of the orchestra as a massive entity virtually surrounding you to be more accurate than those that don't - and a headphone that puts you in the conductor's spot is even better, because that gives you the best "view" of the orchestra, aurally speaking. The entire orchestra up-close is something most people don't get to hear, which is too bad, because it's awesome-sounding.
> 
> ...


----------



## GrowthValue

LugBug, I cannot agree with you more on your input here. 
   
  Quote: 





lugbug1 said:


> I think for peeps who love going to concerts and the thrill i gives, no hifi experience can recreate this. Headphones for e.g will give you a brilliant window onto the music to study more closely, but* this is unrealistic in the sense that all the great symphonies/operas were written for a concert hall in mind. *With no microphones, only room acoustic. If Beethoven could have used studio's and placed mic's would he have wrote in the same manner that he did, with massive layers of strings and timpani? Recording studios can do what they like to change/manipulate the sound to emphasize certain aspects or dull others but in the concert hall you get the orchestra in front of you (if you have good seat) warts n'all and the cellos come from where the cello's are and the soprano sounds where she is on stage. And when the crescendo builds with the orchestra in full swing, you feel the vibrations through your whole body and feel the music like you are part of it. It's real and tangible.
> Oh well, back to my LCD2's ....


----------



## GrowthValue

I really love your analogies. When I see many posts here, I start to realize there are many guys listening to the tech side of musics rather than the music side of musics.
   
  Quote: 





matsudaman said:


> ??????????????????????????????????????????????.........REEEEEEEEEEEEEeeeeeeeeally?  Did you say that listening to your headphones is better than a live show?  That's like saying that looking at a Van Gogh through a calibrated monitor is better than seeing it in person with your own eyes.  That's like saying virtual sex is better than the feeling of.... uh....You need to get out, bro.


----------



## GrowthValue

Excellent point! I can see you understand music very well.
  Quote: 





chris j said:


> Just my two cents here,
> but at the end of the day, even a symphony orchestra is putting on a show.
> IMHO, the point of that particular show is for the audience to hear the performance as best they can.
> The performance is not for the musicians or the conductor, it is for the audience.
> ...


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





growthvalue said:


> When I saw you said "concert halls are typically poor places for listening to music", I know we belong to two totally different hi-fi group. For me, listening to music means listen to real life experience. I want to listen to music in a way that Beethoven wants his audience to hear. Many violin concertos have violin solo with extremely high frequency. The reason is the composers know the walls of concert hall will roll off the high frequency significantly. If you tell a composer to write something just for head-fi, I bet he will no longer use frequency as high.
> 
> Anyway, I agree there are many head-fiers like you who just love the unreal music experience. That's nothing wrong with it. However, as a joke, there are also many folks who will trade their very hi end music gears with you if you can provide unlimited concert tickets to them.


 
   
  Quote: 





growthvalue said:


> [size=10pt]Unfortunately, you miss a big point of classical music even though you have played in orchestras before. Classical music composers in 18th century have no idea about several hundred years later many people will just use their headphones to listen to their musics. As a result, those composers composed music that will be listened in concert halls, i.e. the music played in concert hall is the music that the composers want audience to hear. To do so, composers would write violins solos with significantly higher notes in order to let the concert hall walls roll off them.  [/size]
> [size=10pt] [/size]
> [size=10pt]Overall, I regret that as a former orchestra player you prefer technical side of the sound to the real feeling of the music. Also, when I saw you said "Listening at home conveys more accuracy than buying expensive tickets to see any orchestra, regardless of how talented it is", I suspect your short orchestra playing experience may be an unpleasant one, which makes you do not want to ever be present in a concert hall again. I can accept that many people prefer the hi-fi sound to the live concert, but downplaying the talent of an orchestra will not come from a real classical music fan. [/size]


 
   
  Very well said.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





growthvalue said:


> Excellent point! I can see you understand music very well.


 
   
  Thank you.
  And so do you!


----------



## JamesHuntington

I don't think you can generalize what all composers wanted, I mean some probably wanted to get beyond the instrument and give the listener a feeling of something unnatural and futuristic. Maybe the point is to transport the listener to something beyond hearing, seeing and feeling. I still think a mastered recording has less flaws because it is a fixed entity and can be situated in such a way as to heighten the experience over a live performance. And how do we know how the original composer wanted the concert hall to look? The technology of making concert halls is a many times better than in the 1700's. The halls are bigger and hold more people than they did in the 1700's. They didn't have recording technology in the 1700's. The instruments were made differently in the 1700's. Were assuming a lot about the 18th century. If I was a composer I'd play to certain people in the audience and would know where they were, usually sitting in the box seats. Because the king might have been up there and if he had a bad experience then it might have been off with the composer's head. I feel like the best recorded music is mastered by classical music experts in order to give everyone the same perspective; and, are designed to be historically correct as far as what is believed to be the proper sound.


----------



## bsmith

Looking for a solid state amp, <$1000, ideally <$750.  Per reading this thread, it appears the v200, soloist, ha-160, and mjolnir are the options that come to mind.  Difference between soloist and ha-160?  Same price.  Was also looking at the emotiva mini but per another thread here on headfi it appears to produce a noticeable buzz, which is a shame given its price and power output (assumed linear) at ~60 ohms.  Does anyone have suggestions for solid state amps that deliver adequate power (2W?) for less than $750?  Balanced would be a plus, but is not a necessity.
   
  On a note about tube amps; was looking at the Lyr given its price, however the idea of quality tube prices continually rising is a bit off putting.
   
  Thanks.
   
  (All prices $ USD.)
   
   
  Edit:  Per some more reading, it appears the LP G109 falls within my desired range, leaving me with room to spare.


----------



## JamesHuntington

Quote: 





bsmith said:


> Looking for a solid state amp, <$1000, ideally <$750.  Per reading this thread, it appears the v200, soloist, ha-160, and mjolnir are the options that come to mind.  Difference between soloist and ha-160?  Same price.  Was also looking at the emotiva mini but per another thread here on headfi it appears to produce a noticeable buzz, which is a shame given its price and power output (assumed linear) at ~60 ohms.  Does anyone have suggestions for solid state amps that deliver adequate power (2W?) for less than $750?  Balanced would be a plus, but is not a necessity.
> 
> On a note about tube amps; was looking at the Lyr given its price, however the idea of quality tube prices continually rising is a bit off putting.
> 
> ...


 
  http://www.ebay.com/itm/Little-Dot-MK-VI-MK6-Balanced-Headphone-Amplifier-Pre-Amplifier-/170928324041?pt=US_Home_Audio_Amplifiers_Preamps&hash=item27cc1f3dc9
   






 I know, but it is 5W per channel at 120ohm. Don't people like these little dot thingies? They say it's the flag ship at little dot.
   
  http://www.ebay.com/itm/Little-Dot-MK-IV-4-SE-Headphone-Tube-Amplifier-Pre-Amp-/190785961717?pt=US_Home_Audio_Amplifiers_Preamps&hash=item2c6bbabef5
   
  Hey, I'm a eBaybe. The #29 ranked desktop amp is the MKIII, so this one cant be bad.


----------



## Barry S

Quote: 





bsmith said:


> Looking for a solid state amp, <$1000, ideally <$750.  Per reading this thread, it appears the v200, soloist, ha-160, and mjolnir are the options that come to mind.  Difference between soloist and ha-160?  Same price.  Was also looking at the emotiva mini but per another thread here on headfi it appears to produce a noticeable buzz, which is a shame given its price and power output (assumed linear) at ~60 ohms.  Does anyone have suggestions for solid state amps that deliver adequate power (2W?) for less than $750?  Balanced would be a plus, but is not a necessity.
> 
> On a note about tube amps; was looking at the Lyr given its price, however the idea of quality tube prices continually rising is a bit off putting.
> 
> ...


 

 Welcome to head-fi and sorry for your wallet. Have you already got your LCD-2s and do you have an amp currently?  I ask because the LCD-2 signature can be shaped by your choice of amp.  The Lyr accentuates the warm and dark character of the LCD-2, while the Mjolnir pushes the upper-mids and highs forward, improves detail, and cranks up the dynamics of the LCD-2. 
   
  I think the Soloist delivers more power than the HA-160.  I haven't heard the Soloist, but it sounds like a nice fairly neutral amp that can do a good job driving the LCDs.  For $750, the Mjolnir is probably a little brighter and is balanced--although it's hard to say if that makes any real difference by itself. I've only listened to the LCD-2 through the Lyr and Mjolnir from the following choices, but my impression from reviews is they roughly break as follows.  I threw in the BHA, since you can find a used one for $1K and it has a good rep--particularly if you want something on the agressive/bright side.
   
  Warmer:  Lyr   V200   Soloist   Mjolnir   BHA-1 :Brighter


----------



## wizia

The warm/bright difference has a mayor relevance regarding the type of music you listen to or is it more of a personal taste?


----------



## Barry S

wizia said:


> The warm/bright difference has a mayor relevance regarding the type of music you listen to or is it more of a personal taste?




A bit of both. For instance, orchestral music tends to sound more resolved and natural with a brighter headphone/amp combination. Ultimately, it's personal preference.


----------



## wizia

Okey, so maybe electronic, pop and rock benefit of a more warmer sound?


----------



## Barry S

wizia said:


> Okey, so maybe electronic, pop and rock benefit of a more warmer sound?




There's probably an even split for those genres. No amp is going to turn the LCD-2 into a bright headphone like the HD800, but some people are very sensitive to treble energy--so it's best to audition some gear if possible.


----------



## wewso

OK, been reading about what amp I should get with my LCD2 and I currently feel like I'm playing chess with my wallet. Its a bit of a tough one really... my budget for the amp is $200 and that's already 100% up from the original budget. I do realize how much of a difference a proper amp can make to the sound of the LCDs but that doesn't change the fact that I simply can't afford it. That said I'm looking for an amp that will squeeze as much sonic juice out of my cans without going above my price limit. I work as a producer, making bass-heavy music so heavily rely on my monitoring system for my mixes. That means I'm aiming to get a balanced and dynamic sound with clear transients and minimal spectral distortion. Luckily I have a fairly decent audio interface so at least I don't have to worry about DAC.
  I know it sounds like I'm trying to do the impossible here but I really am in a tough situation money-wise. 
  I'm currently looking at Hifiman EF2A,O2, VCan, Little Dot, ect but I can't judge the sound without hearing them. Really hope you can help me with this as I'm pretty badly versed in amps. 
   
  Thanks.


----------



## adydula

wewso...
   
  The O2 works wonderfully with the LCD2's...I have both, actually I have (2) o2 amps...!!
   
  You can buy a working board for $99. or buy it in a nice box for a bit more at JDSlabs.com
   
   
  Excellent product, excellent customer support...
   
  All the best
  Alex


----------



## JamesHuntington

Quote: 





wewso said:


> OK, been reading about what amp I should get with my LCD2 and I currently feel like I'm playing chess with my wallet. Its a bit of a tough one really... my budget for the amp is $200 and that's already 100% up from the original budget. I do realize how much of a difference a proper amp can make to the sound of the LCDs but that doesn't change the fact that I simply can't afford it. That said I'm looking for an amp that will squeeze as much sonic juice out of my cans without going above my price limit. I work as a producer, making bass-heavy music so heavily rely on my monitoring system for my mixes. That means I'm aiming to get a balanced and dynamic sound with clear transients and minimal spectral distortion. Luckily I have a fairly decent audio interface so at least I don't have to worry about DAC.
> I know it sounds like I'm trying to do the impossible here but I really am in a tough situation money-wise.
> I'm currently looking at Hifiman EF2A,O2, VCan, Little Dot, ect but I can't judge the sound without hearing them. Really hope you can help me with this as I'm pretty badly versed in amps.
> 
> Thanks.


 

 It depends weather you need an internal dac, which some of these do. There's a used EF2A for $129 right now on eBay, and you get a DAC. The V-can is has a got TONS of volume. The little dot, at least the MKII, claims to have gain control options that lets you be able to use it with any headphone.


----------



## LugBug1

I would personally stay away from OTL amps like the little dot mkii and iii, they have have got lots of voltage which is great for high impedance cans like the 650, but the LCD2's are only 50 ohms and require lots of current to shine. If you are to go with tubes I'd suggest a hybrid such as the Lyr. Or even the little dot mk1+ on the budget scale.


----------



## Ultrainferno

Quote: 





lugbug1 said:


> I would personally stay away from OTL amps like the little dot mkii and iii, they have have got lots of voltage which is great for high impedance cans like the 650, but the LCD2's are only 50 ohms and require lots of current to shine. If you are to go with tubes I'd suggest a hybrid such as the Lyr. Or even the little dot mk1+ on the budget scale.


 
   
  I really didn't like it with the Lyr, lifeless and missing a lot (but that's just my opinion). I can't say I've found a tube amp that makes it sound as good as the V200 and I've heard quite a lot


----------



## LugBug1

Quote: 





ultrainferno said:


> I really didn't like it with the Lyr, lifeless and missing a lot (but that's just my opinion). I can't say I've found a tube amp that makes it sound as good as the V200 and I've heard quite a lot


 
  Yeah, to be fair I much prefer SS with orthos. Especially the LCD2's. They really don't benefit from any added colour from tubes. I think they benefit from the speed and attack that you only get from a good SS amp.


----------



## Ultrainferno

Agree


----------



## JamesHuntington

Quote: 





lugbug1 said:


> Yeah, to be fair I much prefer SS with orthos. Especially the LCD2's. They really don't benefit from any added colour from tubes. I think they benefit from the speed and attack that you only get from a good SS amp.


 

 How about a good portable amp with plug in and a battery? Maybe that would give a more consistent current from a cheap source?


----------



## LugBug1

Quote: 





jameshuntington said:


> How about a good portable amp with plug in and a battery? Maybe that would give a more consistent current from a cheap source?


 
  Absolutely. I've tried my LCD's on a little Necosoundlabs portable and they sounded great. Cmoy amps can provide a lot of current for low imp phones, I could'nt get passed 8'oclock on the dial on mine!


----------



## bmichels

I just bought the *Red Wine Audio Bellina HPA* ( DAC/AMP with SE + Balanced output).  Will it be a good amp for the LCD ?  Has someone own or tested its predecessor, the Isabellina HPA ?


----------



## Man7rah

Quote: 





bmichels said:


> I just bought the *Red Wine Audio Bellina HPA* ( DAC/AMP with SE + Balanced output).  Will it be a good amp for the LCD ?  Has someone own or tested its predecessor, the Isabellina HPA ?


 
  From what I've read, It'll be glorious


----------



## Poladise

The Corvina SE sounded very nice with lcd-2.2. Like a sweeter more euphonic Burson Soloist.
  So I'd imagine your 5W balanced version with its made to match dac will sound amazing.
  There are reviews of the Isabellina if you seach headfi. It should just be an improvement on that.
  Look forward to your impressions.


----------



## wewso

O2 with TLE2062CP (U3 & 4) and OPA2277PA (U1) for 1x and 2.5 gains, desktop? Any DIYer assembled this before?


----------



## adydula

Built (2) O2's with:
   
  NJM2068D for U1
  NJM4556D for U3, U4...
   
  The 2062 is the low power version etc dont know anyone that has done that.
   
  Alex


----------



## Noobmachine

Guys I just bought myself a pair of second hand LCD 2.2s, and I now I'm also in the market for an amp to power these bad boys as well! I've tried reading through the 300+ pages of this thread but I don't really have the time... So, as of now, what is the best $1000 amp for the LCD 2.2? I won't really need a DAC I already have a pretty capable one, so a standalone amp is fine, but if there is a DAC/amp combo so good that I NEED to get it I would consider it  Thanks in advance!
   
  Side Note: I also kinda need this amp to power my other headphone, a HD650. From what I've heard amps like the Schiit Lyr and Burson Soloist the like are good options, but I like having more options


----------



## Satellite_6

wewso just buy an O2 and be done with it.


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





noobmachine said:


> Guys I just bought myself a pair of second hand LCD 2.2s, and I now I'm also in the market for an amp to power these bad boys as well! I've tried reading through the 300+ pages of this thread but I don't really have the time... So, as of now, what is the best $1000 amp for the LCD 2.2? I won't really need a DAC I already have a pretty capable one, so a standalone amp is fine, but if there is a DAC/amp combo so good that I NEED to get it I would consider it  Thanks in advance!
> 
> Side Note: I also kinda need this amp to power my other headphone, a HD650. From what I've heard amps like the Schiit Lyr and Burson Soloist the like are good options, but I like having more options


 
   
  For sub 1K amps my vote would got to the Mjolnir to pair with the LCD-2.2s.  The BHA-1 is another good option a little above the 1K mark.  Of course the Soloist would be good as well.


----------



## MorbidToaster

Mjolnir or BHA-1 for a budget stretcher.
   
  Quote: 





noobmachine said:


> Guys I just bought myself a pair of second hand LCD 2.2s, and I now I'm also in the market for an amp to power these bad boys as well! I've tried reading through the 300+ pages of this thread but I don't really have the time... So, as of now, what is the best $1000 amp for the LCD 2.2? I won't really need a DAC I already have a pretty capable one, so a standalone amp is fine, but if there is a DAC/amp combo so good that I NEED to get it I would consider it  Thanks in advance!
> 
> Side Note: I also kinda need this amp to power my other headphone, a HD650. From what I've heard amps like the Schiit Lyr and Burson Soloist the like are good options, but I like having more options


----------



## longbowbbs

Quote: 





noobmachine said:


> Guys I just bought myself a pair of second hand LCD 2.2s, and I now I'm also in the market for an amp to power these bad boys as well! I've tried reading through the 300+ pages of this thread but I don't really have the time... So, as of now, what is the best $1000 amp for the LCD 2.2? I won't really need a DAC I already have a pretty capable one, so a standalone amp is fine, but if there is a DAC/amp combo so good that I NEED to get it I would consider it  Thanks in advance!
> 
> Side Note: I also kinda need this amp to power my other headphone, a HD650. From what I've heard amps like the Schiit Lyr and Burson Soloist the like are good options, but I like having more options


 
   
  Awesome deal on AudiogoN on the Bryston BHA-1!
   
  http://app.audiogon.com/listings/amplifiers-bryston-bha-1-balanced-headphone-amplifier-2013-01-21-headphones-07430-mahwah-nj


----------



## MorbidToaster

He said latest greatest but as far as I can tell from the specs he posted it doesn't have the Pre-out. Be careful and get pictures.
   
  Quote: 





longbowbbs said:


> Awesome deal on AudiogoN on the Bryston BHA-1!
> 
> http://app.audiogon.com/listings/amplifiers-bryston-bha-1-balanced-headphone-amplifier-2013-01-21-headphones-07430-mahwah-nj


----------



## Argo Duck

Jan Meier's Classic is also worth considering - Jan's best amp to date IMO. Quite a different animal from the fast but dry Concerto. Lots of power (current) for LCD2 and suits high-impedance 'phones too.
   
  Would've recommended Decware Taboo (mark II) except it's just been replaced with mark III and a price rise to around $1400-1500 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  (And of course I haven't heard it yet!).


----------



## Noobmachine

Thanks for all the suggestions guys, and I've kinda narrowed it down to the Mjolnir. The only problem is now I have to get both the LCD2 and HD650 re-terminated, and that's probably gonna be a bit pricey.... How much would it cost to recable them both with balanced XLR? Since the Mjolnir is quite a bit short of the $1000, I should have some left over to get the cables done. Thanks again!


----------



## MorbidToaster

I'd try to find someone in your area to reterminate your stock cables. They should both be fairly easy to make 'balanced'.
   
  Quote: 





noobmachine said:


> Thanks for all the suggestions guys, and I've kinda narrowed it down to the Mjolnir. The only problem is now I have to get both the LCD2 and HD650 re-terminated, and that's probably gonna be a bit pricey.... How much would it cost to recable them both with balanced XLR? Since the Mjolnir is quite a bit short of the $1000, I should have some left over to get the cables done. Thanks again!


----------



## Maxvla

Audeze sells a balanced cable on their site for $80 so that is an option. Sadly no Sennheiser balanced cable for HD650. Plenty of them around though, maybe you can make a WTB thread and snag one someone never uses for cheap.


----------



## Noobmachine

Alright I just poked around and found out that cables alone will run me quite a bit, and I don't have the time or expertise to DIY them, so balanced amps are out of the picture. What single ended amps would you guys recommend?


----------



## Maxvla

Could probably get both LCD-2 and HD650 balanced cables for ~$200 total if you look hard enough for the HD650 cable. Mjolnir is $750 so if your budget is $1000 that still fits.

At worst you could buy new. Double Helix has a cable at $180 + $80 for LCD-2 cable = $260 + Mjolnir = $1010.

Found a stock HD650 cable with 2x3pin XLR for $100: http://www.headphone.com/accessories/sennheiserhr-balanced-stock-hd650-cable.php


----------



## Noobmachine

maxvla said:


> Could probably get both LCD-2 and HD650 balanced cables for ~$200 total if you look hard enough for the HD650 cable. Mjolnir is $750 so if your budget is $1000 that still fits.
> 
> At worst you could buy new. Double Helix has a cable at $180 + $80 for LCD-2 cable = $260 + Mjolnir = $1010.
> 
> Found a stock HD650 cable with 2x3pin XLR for $100: http://www.headphone.com/accessories/sennheiserhr-balanced-stock-hd650-cable.php



The thing is that shipping alone is $50 for the cable, and if I'm getting 2 of them from different sources plus shipping for the Mjolnir would end up at a +$150 :/ I'll do a little more browsing, if I can find some cables cheap locally I'll get the Mjolnir. In the meantime I'm considering other single output amps


----------



## Barry S

noobmachine said:


> The thing is that shipping alone is $50 for the cable, and if I'm getting 2 of them from different sources plus shipping for the Mjolnir would end up at a +$150 :/ I'll do a little more browsing, if I can find some cables cheap locally I'll get the Mjolnir. In the meantime I'm considering other single output amps




The LCD2 and HD650 sound amazing out of the Mjolnir--really a good match. I'm sure you could find someone to reterminate both of your stock cables without a problem.


----------



## Maxvla

Ah. I didn't notice your location. Surely there is someone on a Singapore audio board you can meet up with to re-terminate your cables for cheap.


----------



## varyV

Hey guys...Gone through dozens of pages so far looking a suitable match for a potential LCD2 in my near future, one that would also play nice with the HE-500. I'm currently using the RSA Intruder to power my he-400s in balanced mode and this amp is pretty powerful, but I'm not sure if it can drive the LCD2s to their full extent. I also have the Hifi-m8 on pre-order, but that comes towards the end of q1. So, I'm stuck here in the meanwhile, looking at amps for the next level of my headphone travels. Budget is not much...I'm looking at ~$600 for an amp and dac. So far, I've shortlisted the search to the Project Sunrise II (around $250) and the Schiit Lyr. From reviews, the Sunrise compares very favorably against the Lyr, but I'd like to know if someone has had personal experience with both?

I would also like to keep the footprint/weight as light as possible (I'm away at college and there's not a ****-ton of room around). Any opinions on the amp/dac would be very welcome.


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





varyv said:


> Hey guys...Gone through dozens of pages so far looking a suitable match for a potential LCD2 in my near future, one that would also play nice with the HE-500. I'm currently using the RSA Intruder to power my he-400s in balanced mode and this amp is pretty powerful, but I'm not sure if it can drive the LCD2s to their full extent. I also have the Hifi-m8 on pre-order, but that comes towards the end of q1. So, I'm stuck here in the meanwhile, looking at amps for the next level of my headphone travels. Budget is not much...I'm looking at ~$600 for an amp and dac. So far, I've shortlisted the search to the Project Sunrise II (around $250) and the Schiit Lyr. From reviews, the Sunrise compares very favorably against the Lyr, but I'd like to know if someone has had personal experience with both?
> 
> I would also like to keep the footprint/weight as light as possible (I'm away at college and there's not a ****-ton of room around). Any opinions on the amp/dac would be very welcome.


 
   
  For affordable amp/dac combos one place to look is Audio-gd - Compass 2   http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/Headphoneamp/Compass%202/Compass2EN.htm


----------



## Noobmachine

Quote: 





barry s said:


> The LCD2 and HD650 sound amazing out of the Mjolnir--really a good match. I'm sure you could find someone to reterminate both of your stock cables without a problem.


 
   
  Quote: 





maxvla said:


> Ah. I didn't notice your location. Surely there is someone on a Singapore audio board you can meet up with to re-terminate your cables for cheap.


 
   
  Just discovered BTG Audio, and I should be able to get a dual balanced XLR for each type of headphone for $250 plus shipping  Looks like I'm getting a Mjolnir, I'll be back with impressions soon if everything goes well, thanks guys!


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





noobmachine said:


> Alright I just poked around and found out that cables alone will run me quite a bit, and I don't have the time or expertise to DIY them, so balanced amps are out of the picture. What single ended amps would you guys recommend?


 
BTG can reterminate your HD650 and LCD-2 for around $60.
   
  Edit: Saw you just discovered 'em.


----------



## mikek200

+ 1 on BTG.
  He just finished ,doing work on my HD800 stock cable..it's now 10' 4-pin XLR..$40.00.
  Brians the best


----------



## varyV

Quote: 





preproman said:


> For affordable amp/dac combos one place to look is Audio-gd - Compass 2   http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/Headphoneamp/Compass%202/Compass2EN.htm


 
   
  I was originally looking at the NFB 10.32 because it's balanced, and would go along with the Hifi-M8. I've also gone through the Audio-GD thread and frankly, it is a little disconcerting to see devices this expensive develop problems and then, the owners running into problems with customer service. I'd be more comfortable purchasing from someone who has customer support in the US.
   
  Right now, I'm really leaning towards Project Sunrise because of its low price and good built. Then also, there's the Lyr with its power. And the EF-5, which is supposedly pretty good too and is a little lighter on the pocket.
   
  I am so ******* lost....


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





varyv said:


> I was originally looking at the NFB 10.32 because it's balanced, and would go along with the Hifi-M8. I've also gone through the Audio-GD thread and frankly, it is a little disconcerting to see devices this expensive develop problems and then, the owners running into problems with customer service. I'd be more comfortable purchasing from someone who has customer support in the US.
> 
> Right now, I'm really leaning towards Project Sunrise because of its low price and good built. Then also, there's the Lyr with its power. And the EF-5, which is supposedly pretty good too and is a little lighter on the pocket.
> 
> I am so ******* lost....


 
   
   
  Well nothing beats some good ole Schiit


----------



## MatsudaMan

Quote: 





preproman said:


> Well nothing beats some good ole Schiit


 
  Without that gimmicky name, they would be no where near as popular.  Love when people make the Schiit jokes, it just never gets old...


----------



## Argo Duck

I think the Schiit name goes along with their whole philosophy. In a sense - not the usual sense - all their products are 'statement' products, as in "they all make a statement". All have a distinctive voice and - increasingly - design.

You certainly could not accuse Jason or Mike of being shrinking violets in terms of the product specs and willingness to innovate!


----------



## dagothur

Quote: 





varyv said:


> I was originally looking at the NFB 10.32 because it's balanced, and would go along with the Hifi-M8. I've also gone through the Audio-GD thread and frankly, it is a little disconcerting to see devices this expensive develop problems and then, the owners running into problems with customer service. I'd be more comfortable purchasing from someone who has customer support in the US.
> 
> Right now, I'm really leaning towards Project Sunrise because of its low price and good built. Then also, there's the Lyr with its power. And the EF-5, which is supposedly pretty good too and is a little lighter on the pocket.
> 
> I am so ******* lost....


 
  I've never had any problems with my Audio GD amp and it sounds great with the LCD-2s.


----------



## varyV

Quote: 





dagothur said:


> I've never had any problems with my Audio GD amp and it sounds great with the LCD-2s.


 
   
  Probably most of the people who have purchased audio-gd probably don't experience problems. It's just that I don't want to be involved in sending a 10-pound amp back and forth to China in case something ever happens. Hifiman works out well because they have distributors and an office here in the U.S.. In fact, I had a problem with a faulty he-400 and they took care of it the same day. Another time, they sent me a replacement Hifiman he-series case free of charge when the original shipment was sent to my previous address.
   
  In either case you don't have to worry about C.S. because as we all know, all the big brands are focusing their marketing to take a foothold in Antarctica 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 .
   
  For the folks rolling tubes: would you recommend jumping on the tube bandwagon for my first desktop amp? I've owned/own quite a few portable ones (Fiios, the Arrow, the Intruder, uHA-120, etc) and the idea of a consumable tube inside an amp is a little foreign.
   
   
  Quote: 





preproman said:


> Well nothing beats some good ole Schiit


 
   
  Right now, this is on my "final options" list. I would jump on if I can find one for cheap, but the sunrise II/ Ember is looking even more attractive.


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





varyv said:


> I was originally looking at the NFB 10.32 because it's balanced, and would go along with the Hifi-M8. I've also gone through the Audio-GD thread and frankly, it is a little disconcerting to see devices this expensive develop problems and then, the owners running into problems with customer service. I'd be more comfortable purchasing from someone who has customer support in the US.
> 
> Right now, I'm really leaning towards Project Sunrise because of its low price and good built. Then also, there's the Lyr with its power. And the EF-5, which is supposedly pretty good too and is a little lighter on the pocket.
> 
> I am so ******* lost....


 
  Project Sunrise is an awesome, awesome lil amp. The lyr is still a better amp and more responsive to tube rolling, but I'd take the SP over O2 anyday.


----------



## varyV

Quote: 





paradoxper said:


> Project Sunrise is an awesome, awesome lil amp. The lyr is still a better amp and more responsive to tube rolling, but I'd take the SP over O2 anyday.


 
   
   
  Have you listened to both? I would love to hear a little more about the comparison between the two. The Lyr is well loved around these parts, but no one seems to have had experience with PSII.


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





varyv said:


> Have you listened to both? I would love to hear a little more about the comparison between the two. The Lyr is well loved around these parts, but no one seems to have had experience with PSII.


 
  With the Lyr it really depends on the tubes used. Overall budget factors into the Lyr as well.
   
  The PSII is the best amp I've heard in its price range, in fact, it's better than the Lyr stock.
   
  But to keep it short, I found the PSII to lack in everything behind the Lyr. Also, I had very limited experience with swapping out tubes
  on PS, but comparatively to Lyr it's a bit sterile sounding. It's got ton of details but for a tube amp is too analytical for my preference.
   
  This very well could change with tube rolling FWIW.
   
  It's pretty seductive when using the HD650. Either way you can't go wrong. The Lyr definitely has more scalability with tube rolling,
  but that does come at a price.
   
  If you're using orthos or plan to in the future, then the Lyr is a no brainer.


----------



## T.F.O.A

Hi everyone, 
   
  I'm planning to buy LCD-2, i just want to know, what amp is best for LCD-2? solid state or tube?
   
  thanks,


----------



## mbllbm

Quote: 





t.f.o.a said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I'm planning to buy LCD-2, i just want to know, what amp is best for LCD-2? solid state or tube?
> 
> thanks,


 
   
  Bryston bha1


----------



## MatsudaMan

Quote: 





mbllbm said:


> Bryston bha1


 
  BURSON SOLOIST


----------



## Francoy

Quote: 





t.f.o.a said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I'm planning to buy LCD-2, i just want to know, what amp is best for LCD-2? solid state or tube?
> 
> thanks,


 
   
  Ouch! Seriously tough question there.
  Depending on who you ask that question, you will get different answers...
   
  And of course price, preferred music genres and portability/ease of use need all to be factored in to give a vote towards one or the other.
   
  Myself, I like tubes - but - awesome tubes. So maybe SS is more accessible???
   
  There are also a few good hybrids out there.


----------



## T.F.O.A

Thanks Francoy,
   
  I listen to pop, audiophile voices, punk, and just a little bit of classic.
  I'm looking for an all-rounder amp, i know there won't be any perfect amp, but a jack of all trades master of none kinda amp.


----------



## MorbidToaster

I prefer Hybrid amps. Cavalli stuff in particular, but I'd say either hybrid or SS. Not much of a fan of orthos with tubes from the ones I've heard.


----------



## Argo Duck

^ To present the other side to MT, my *particular* all-tube amp is the best I've heard with my LCD2 rev 1, although I would settle happily enough with the SS Meier Classic. My Schiit Lyr (hybrid) has fallen into disuse, as has the SS Violectric V100.

The problem: it's not a question of SS or tubes or hybrid being 'best' with LCD2 (orthos), but which *specific* amp of whatever kind.

TFOA, kinda sounds to me like you just need to try things out and find out what you want. A "jack of all trades" won't work if you turn out to have distinctive preferences in one or other direction. It seems most of us do - which is why few of us agree on anything


----------



## MorbidToaster

Of course there's always exceptions, but I do feel like if you're playing it safe a good S amp would be the way to go. 
   
  I love tubes, myself. The Liquid Glass is a hybrid, but it may as well be a tube amp due to the voicing. It's just fantastic.
   
  Quote: 





argo duck said:


> ^ To present the other side to MT, my *particular* all-tube amp is the best I've heard with my LCD2 rev 1, although I would settle happily enough with the SS Meier Classic. My Schiit Lyr (hybrid) has fallen into disuse, as has the SS Violectric V100.
> 
> The problem: it's not a question of SS or tubes or hybrid being 'best' with LCD2 (orthos), but which *specific* amp of whatever kind.
> 
> TFOA, kinda sounds to me like you just need to try things out and find out what you want. A "jack of all trades" won't work if you turn out to have distinctive preferences in one or other direction. It seems most of us do - which is why few of us agree on anything


----------



## Argo Duck

MT I agree - "playing it safe" - SS.

Given the Audez'e's reputation as dark or even 'warm', tubes and hybrids can be risky. I remember finding the Lyr with stock tubes syrupy. Great with electric guitar but too much otherwise.
With other tubes it was terrific but that took rolling...


----------



## Francoy

^ Exactly what I was about to say... Tubes, need a bit of time/work (and money) to get the synergy of your rig in line with your preferences.
   
  For me, the time and effort was worth it (maybe not the money though) and I enjoy the LCD-2s much more from my Taboo with Siemens tubes than from my SS setups (albeit modest SS setups I have to admit).
   
  Having said that, punk sounds best with tubes to my ears (but mind you I listen mainly to old school stuff like NoFX, NoUseForAName, Propagandhi, Lagwagon, etc.) because it adds weight to the bright recordings and is less fatiguing. I would be inclined to say the same thing with Pop, but those are my tastes...
   
  As for classical and voices, I would vote for a good precise/wide SS setup.
   
  Of course, trying it for yourself is always best... If you have an opportunity to do so (like buddys/family with different setups, a local store with a good selection of headphone related gear or if Head-Fi meets happen in your corner of the planet).


----------



## T.F.O.A

Yep, that's the problem, the meet in my corner of the planet. But hey, thanks now at least i have a direction.


----------



## LugBug1

Quote: 





argo duck said:


> I think the Schiit name goes along with their whole philosophy. In a sense - not the usual sense - all their products are 'statement' products, as in "they all make a statement". All have a distinctive voice and - increasingly - design.
> 
> You certainly could not accuse Jason or Mike of being shrinking violets in terms of the product specs and willingness to innovate!


 
  Just got one of those little Magni's to try out and it powers the LCD2's no problem at all. 1.2 watts into 32 ohms. So you should be getting a nice watt into them. Only problem is that its sooo ****ing loud you have to turn your source volume down to get any ground on the volume pot. Apart from that its a no brainer. And if anyone knows about having no brains it me 
  Quote: 





dagothur said:


> I've never had any problems with my Audio GD amp and it sounds great with the LCD-2s.


 
  Agreed. My fave amp is still the good ole C2 (.2)
  Quote: 





argo duck said:


> MT I agree - "playing it safe" - SS.
> 
> Given the Audez'e's reputation as dark or even 'warm', tubes and hybrids can be risky. I remember finding the Lyr with stock tubes syrupy. Great with electric guitar but too much otherwise.
> With other tubes it was terrific but that took rolling...


 
  Yup SS all the way with the LCD2's. The only way I'd go all tubing out on them would be if they were my only hp I ever used. Because then you'd get soo adjusted to the dark signature, you wouldn't mind playing about with some added colour as much, otherwise they'd just sound too warm in comparison to others. But in general the LCD2's benefit from speed and transparency.


----------



## tamleo

Hello everybody,
   
  Does everybody think i can heard a significant difference in term of sound quality with the Schiit Mjolnir over the new Asgard's revision when paired with my old HRT music streamer 2(which is a non-balanced output DAC)?
  It is a $500 addition.
  I had a former version Asgard and think it is very nice with my LCD-2. Just want an upgrade for new lunar year.
  Thank you so much!


----------



## paradoxper

Mojo will be a step up from Asgard 2. Even with your source being the overall bottleneck of your rig.
   
  I'd personally go with the Asgard 2 with an upgrade to a new DAC.


----------



## longbowbbs

New Decware amp specifically designed for the LCD-2 or LCD-3
   
  http://www.decware.com/newsite/TABOO.htm


----------



## MorbidToaster

Really, really want one. This is what I've been waiting for from Decware. 
   
  Get it in Rosewood to match a Rosewood LCD. 
   
  Quote: 





longbowbbs said:


> New Decware amp specifically designed for the LCD-2 or LCD-3
> 
> http://www.decware.com/newsite/TABOO.htm


----------



## LugBug1

Deserves a pic


----------



## MorbidToaster

I'm just really happy they're using a black plate now. Finally.


----------



## LugBug1

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> I'm just really happy they're using a black plate now. Finally.


 
  Absolutely. But also imagine the white stripped down and varnished Rosewood styley aswell....
   
  It just looks so classy. I mean who would have thought that victorian skirting boards would become part of a hp amp design!


----------



## MorbidToaster

I'd want to do a Cherry to match my Harbeths (or maybe an Ash to match the Leben) in the modern case.
   
  Quote: 





lugbug1 said:


> Absolutely. But also imagine the white stripped down and varnished Rosewood styley aswell....
> 
> It just looks so classy. I mean who would have thought that victorian skirting boards would become part of a hp amp design!


----------



## OPR8R

Quote: 





longbowbbs said:


> New Decware amp specifically designed for the LCD-2 or LCD-3
> 
> http://www.decware.com/newsite/TABOO.htm


 
  May be pulling the trigger on one of these soon.


----------



## Noobmachine

I kinda swapped out my amp decision last minute and got the ALO Pan Am instead, and I can see why they're called the LCD-2 amp, I've been so busy re-discovering my music that I've been near inactive on this site for the past 2 days.... Audio BLISS  
   
  I haven't had the slightest thought to put on my HD650s since I got the Pan Am + LCD-2 combo, my poor little 650 may be on sale soon.....


----------



## HeyWaj10

Well, I'm a proud new owner of a pair of LCD2r2 (bamboo, black connectors), and even got some vegan pads with them 
   
  I also happened to win a bid on Ebay for a like-new Musical Fidelity M1HPA.  Currently I'm only using a uDac-2se as my source, which I feel is an obvious bottleneck in what will eventually be an amazing rig.  That all being said, how does the M1HPA compare to the Burson Soloist?  Clearly, the Soloist offers more power, but from a SQ perspective, should I waste my time looking into the Burson, or is the M1 a really solid choice that I've made?
   
  So far, I do enjoy the sound, although I can hear some audible distortion at times from the uDac-2se (the general Nuforce recipe, I suppose) when turning up the volume on some tracks. This isn't audible most of the time, just occasionally.  I'm in love with the LCD2s, but feel I could potentially be missing some of that "attack" in the snare drum department...feels a tad distant from what I'm used to.  Maybe this is just an adjustment thing with the ortho sound.
   
  I plan on upgrading to a Gungnir in the future, so will that help in the "attack" area, and make me no longer question the M1 purchase? Or is something like the Soloist more up my alley?

 Thanks!


----------



## LugBug1

Quote: 





heywaj10 said:


> Well, I'm a proud new owner of a pair of LCD2r2 (bamboo, black connectors), and even got some vegan pads with them
> 
> I also happened to win a bid on Ebay for a like-new Musical Fidelity M1HPA.  Currently I'm only using a uDac-2se as my source, which I feel is an obvious bottleneck in what will eventually be an amazing rig.  That all being said, how does the M1HPA compare to the Burson Soloist?  Clearly, the Soloist offers more power, but from a SQ perspective, should I waste my time looking into the Burson, or is the M1 a really solid choice that I've made?
> 
> ...


 
  Congrats!
  I would give your new LCD's a bit of a run in before you decide anything amp wise. They do open up more over time. Though never treble centric, the LCD2.2's do actually have a bit of a 'bite in the upper mids. You should be able to hear this soon enough as you get used to the sound sig and as they loosen up. If you have come from dynamics then there is a bit of adjusting time needed for orthos before you can appreciate the more 'liquidy/smooth' sound as opposed to  'airy/grainy' nature of dynamics. It may seem like there is less 'slam etc but you should soon get used to it and appreciate it for a more natural and controlled sound.  
  I haven't heard the M1 but I've always liked Musical fidelity stuff. They do make some great gear for the money. Also, power isn't everything with the LCD2's as they are pretty efficient and are more transparent than most hp's. So I would say SQ is more important than power.


----------



## NZheadcase

Quote: 





noobmachine said:


> I kinda swapped out my amp decision last minute and got the ALO Pan Am instead, and I can see why they're called the LCD-2 amp, I've been so busy re-discovering my music that I've been near inactive on this site for the past 2 days.... Audio BLISS
> 
> I haven't had the slightest thought to put on my HD650s since I got the Pan Am + LCD-2 combo, my poor little 650 may be on sale soon.....


 
   
  For a transportable amp, the Pan Am really does have a great synergy with the LCD 2r2. You never have the feeling that anything is missing compared to your home rig. of course if you do a side by side comparison, you'll notice a difference. Not enough to make you have buyers remorse for getting the Pan Am though.


----------



## jackwess

Quote: 





heywaj10 said:


> Well, I'm a proud new owner of a pair of LCD2r2 (bamboo, black connectors), and even got some vegan pads with them
> 
> I also happened to win a bid on Ebay for a like-new Musical Fidelity M1HPA.  Currently I'm only using a uDac-2se as my source, which I feel is an obvious bottleneck in what will eventually be an amazing rig.  That all being said, how does the M1HPA compare to the Burson Soloist?  Clearly, the Soloist offers more power, but from a SQ perspective, should I waste my time looking into the Burson, or is the M1 a really solid choice that I've made?


 
   
  Yup, power is not everything but if you upgrade to more hard to drive planars such as the HE-500/600 the soloist is a winner against the M1HPA. I did some comparisons vs the HA-160 and the Soloist as well. 
  My ears are very pleased with the soloist, (thinking on pulling the trigger on the SL version) I find the Schiit to be focused on detail retrieval, but the soloist is more fun sounding. Better instrument separation. 
   
  It will depend on the headphone combination.


----------



## Kmikko91

@HeyWaj10
   
  Quote:


> Well, I'm a proud new owner of a pair of LCD2r2 (bamboo, black connectors), and even got some vegan pads with them
> 
> 
> 
> I also happened to win a bid on Ebay for a like-new Musical Fidelity M1HPA. Currently I'm only using a uDac-2se as my source, which I feel is an obvious bottleneck in what will eventually be an amazing rig. That all being said, how does the M1HPA compare to the Burson Soloist? Clearly, the Soloist offers more power, but from a SQ perspective, should I waste my time looking into the Burson, or is the M1 a really solid choice that I've made?


 
   
  I have had some listening time with both lcd-2.2 and M1HPA. What I can say about M1HPA is that the amp section was (to me) warm sounding. Taken that lcd-2.2 itself is a warm sounding hp I'm not sure how well it would sound on M1HPA. Also in Audeze's website they state that it would be better if the amp could provide few watts of output power: ("So I would suggest an Amp that would at least be able to provide a couple of watts of output without any clipping."). According to my information and calculations M1HPA can do about 600 mW @ 60 ohms. Regardless of everything I just said, it all comes down to your likings and what you hear, so you may find M1HPA being a positive suprise.
  Hopefully this answered some guestions!


----------



## oqvist

Anybody here heard the Holographic Ear One?
http://www.holographicaudio.com/headphone-amp.html
   
  3W at 32 ohm and focus on low distortion and transparent sound. Hopefully getting one next week.
  What I am most curious about is the crossfeed function.


----------



## HeyWaj10

@ Kmikko
   
  Quote: 





kmikko91 said:


> I have had some listening time with both lcd-2.2 and M1HPA. What I can say about M1HPA is that the amp section was (to me) warm sounding. Taken that lcd-2.2 itself is a warm sounding hp I'm not sure how well it would sound on M1HPA. Also in Audeze's website they state that it would be better if the amp could provide few watts of output power: ("So I would suggest an Amp that would at least be able to provide a couple of watts of output without any clipping."). According to my information and calculations M1HPA can do about 600 mW @ 60 ohms. Regardless of everything I just said, it all comes down to your likings and what you hear, so you may find M1HPA being a positive suprise.
> Hopefully this answered some guestions!


 
   
  I definitely agree the sound of the M1HPA is on the warmer side, as well as more laid back...border line "polite'.  This is what I meant by the lack of attack I was more hoping for, which is why I have this feeling that the Soloist can deliver that.  Also, going along with *jackwess*' comments, the instrument separation is also what I'm going for.  Granted, like I said, at this stage I do believe the uDac2se is the current bottleneck in the chain, just simply not letting me see the full picture. 
   
  It's a tough spot to be in, because I know I can't truly judge the M1HPA's performance until I get a worthy dac to deliver the fullest potential to the amp.  I guess I just need to wait until I can make the upgrade before going to listen to a Soloist to make a real comparison.


----------



## LugBug1

If you a more aggresive powerful sound you could always check out a little Magni  Seriously, these really fuel the LCD2's and with a very transparent sound. $99 can't go wrong. And it could give you something to think about with what direction your want go with the LCD2's.


----------



## billerb1

Anybody tried the Yulong D-100 with the LCD-2 rev2?  I've had the Yulong D-100 MKII for a few months and it pairs great with
  my Denon 5000's.  Wondering if it has enough mojo to bring out the goods with the LCD-2's.  Any input greatly appreciated.


----------



## Panerai

I'm interested in Yulong as well.
  I really like the company.
  Has anyone tried the A18 with the LCD-2?


----------



## zilch0md

I realize that a lot of new gear has presented itself since the CEntrance DACmini CX first arrived on the scene, but I searched this thread just now for "DACmini" and was surprised to see very few posts since 2011.  
   
  For the sake of newcomers to this thread who might be looking for a DAC + Amp desktop solution in the price range of a DACmini CX, I would like to remind everyone that the DACmini CX is spectacular with the LCD-2.  
   
 
   
It was the enthusiasm of HeadphoneAddict (Larry) for this combination (DACmini CX + LCD-2) that led me to purchase the DACmini CX about 8 months ago, and having purchased a Burson Soloist for use with my LCD-2 about two months ago, I can say that not only is the DACmini CX a better value (with a DAC + amp for $200 less), the two amps are quite similar in signature - with the DACmini CX' amp section offering just a bit more detail and a more forward presentation, where the Soloist treble is somewhat sweeter - more analog sounding - and laid back, but these differences are subtle, not huge.      
   
  When volume matched with an SPL meter and a white noise file, moving back and forth between the two amps, using the DACmini CX' USB DAC as the source, the two amps are a little different to be sure, but equally appealing, in my opinion.  When I want slightly more detail and a more forward sound, I use the DACmini CX.  For everything else (and a more laid back sound), I prefer the Soloist.  Dynamics are identical.  In fact, I can't hear any traits that would indicate the Soloist is more powerful than the DACmini CX into my LCD-2 rev.1.  
   
  Another clue as to the difference between the DACmini CX and the Soloist is that, in my opinion, the Soloist's slightly smoother treble works better with the somewhat unforgiving Beyerdynamic T1, where the slightly more crisp sound of the DACmini CX works better with the LCD-2 rev.1.   Saying that, I have to add that no one would describe the DACmini's treble as being harsh or etched, but it does offer a wee bit more detail than the Soloist - perfect for a headphone like the LCD-2, which isn't known for offering a lot of resolution.
   
  Also:   I ordered the DACmini CX with the 1-Ohm output impedance mod, which yields a more neutral and perhaps brighter sound than the default DACmini CX, which ships with a 10-Ohm output impedance.  Given that the LCD-2 has shelved highs, I find that the DACmini CX with 1-Ohm output impedance has plenty of sparkle - not bright, but just right.   If you prefer a warmer, darker signature, you might want to stick with the default DACmini CX.
   
  With the CEntrance HiFi-M8 about to ship, I predict we will see a few more of these DACmini's coming up for sale.  
   
  See the DACmini threads for more info.
   
  Mike


----------



## djevoultion

I have been offered a HA-160DS Amp for the LCD2. 
   
  After looking at the specs, it lists it as 250mw output. Burson informs me it will output 100mw into 50ohm .
   
  Will this be sufficient to power the LCD2 to its potential? Burson claims it will, I need some other opinions!
   
  Help is appreciated.


----------



## Maxvla

No, go another direction.


----------



## MorbidToaster

This.
   
  Quote: 





maxvla said:


> No, go another direction.


----------



## djevoultion

Thanks for your replies, 
   
  What about the ALO Pan Am?


----------



## pandastyle

I have ~$1000 to spend on an amp and dac for the LCD-2s.  Tell me what to buy because I'm ******* sick of researching.


----------



## Francoy

^
   
  The previous page (post number 5504) mentions the DACmini CX at 800 $ (which is recommended by HeadphoneAddict).
   
  That would leave you 200 $ to re-cable your LCD-2s.


----------



## Dubstep Girl

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> This.


 
   
  +2


----------



## Chris_Himself

pandastyle said:


> I have ~$1000 to spend on an amp and dac for the LCD-2s.  Tell me what to buy because I'm ******* sick of researching.




I would try that Woo Audio WA7. Thats probably the most interesting product I've seen in a long time and I haven't heard a bad product from them.


----------



## bareyb

Quote: 





chris_himself said:


> I would try that Woo Audio WA7. Thats probably the most interesting product I've seen in a long time and I haven't heard a bad product from them.. I had heard that a if you are going to Tubes with the LCD-2 you are better off going with a Hybrid design or Solid State.  Same goes for the HE500s... Not sure if that's true, but a LOT of folks are saying it is...


 
  Is that a pure Tube amp or a hybrid? I thought I'd read that hybrids or SS amps are the way to go for LCD-2 and HE500 type headphones. Not sure how true it is, but I've seen a lot of people recommend them...


----------



## Uncle00Jesse

Quote: 





pandastyle said:


> I have ~$1000 to spend on an amp and dac for the LCD-2s.  Tell me what to buy because I'm ******* sick of researching.


 
  What about a bifrost and a lyr? I thought they sounded great with an lcd-3 I had to try a few weeks ago..


----------



## bareyb

Quote: 





francoy said:


> ^
> 
> The previous page (post number 5504) mentions the DACmini CX at 800 $ (which is recommended by HeadphoneAddict).
> 
> That would leave you 200 $ to re-cable your LCD-2s.


 
  I just ordered one from Amazon and should be here tomorrow. Heard many great things about that DAC/Amp combo. I just hope it's got enough power. It's about 1.5 watts total.


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





uncle00jesse said:


> What about a bifrost and a lyr? I thought they sounded great with an lcd-3 I had to try a few weeks ago..


 
  While I would say that the Lyr is a great option for the LCD-2s, I was never happy with it and the LCD-3s after hearing it paired with better amps (B22/WA22/LF/GS-X).


----------



## Uncle00Jesse

Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> While I would say that the Lyr is a great option for the LCD-2s, I was never happy with it and the LCD-3s after hearing it paired with better amps (B22/WA22/LF/GS-X).


 
  I would think it's not ideal but within a budget it could work for someone I guess. Btw, out of all the amps you've tried with the lcd-3s, which gave you the smoothest non-fatiguing sound with them, even at the expense of uttermost detail? I'm finding my mjolnir a little too forward and hard, making my ears hurt a bit.


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





uncle00jesse said:


> I would think it's not ideal but within a budget it could work for someone I guess. Btw, out of all the amps you've tried with the lcd-3s, which gave you the smoothest non-fatiguing sound with them, even at the expense of uttermost detail? I'm finding my mjolnir a little too forward and hard, making my ears hurt a bit.


 
  The Lyr is certainly a worthy short term solution with the LCD-3s. Honestly, the best I've heard the LCD-3s is now with my GS-X since I popped in the upgrade modules. The extra power put the finishing touches on them. Honorable mention goes to the Liquid Fire w/ a quad of E88CC Siemens tubes. The MJ is an agressive amp from what I hear...either you love it or you don't. As well, don't forget to look upstream (DAC / Source) and some burn-in too should help.


----------



## dave1109

Quote: 





longbowbbs said:


> New Decware amp specifically designed for the LCD-2 or LCD-3
> 
> http://www.decware.com/newsite/TABOO.htm


 

 Beautiful looking amp, hope it sounds as good as it looks !


----------



## Chris_Himself

HRT MSII+
Burson Soloist

This is currently my favorite setup for under $1000 until I've heard the V200 which is supposedly also a wonderamp for LCD-2's.

Over $1000, I could really only speak on what I have now, which is wonderful but I don't know if you want to embark on the journey of getting balanced cables for the LCD-2.


----------



## Panerai

Right now I have a magni/modi with LCD-2.  It sounds good, but I feel like there's more potential in these cans.
  I have a $1000 limit for a DAC and an Amp.
  I've read through this forum, but there's just so many mixed opinions.
   
  To anyone that has heard multiple amps/dacs, what would you recommend if I am looking for a more detailed and articulate sound with really good instrument separation.  Transparency of course, and nothing that will make the treble more forward as I'm pretty sensitive to that.
  Thanks!!


----------



## Panerai

Quote: 





panerai said:


> Right now I have a magni/modi with LCD-2.  It sounds good, but I feel like there's more potential in these cans.
> I have a $1000 limit for a DAC and an Amp.
> I've read through this forum, but there's just so many mixed opinions.
> 
> ...


 
  Oh, and I'm seriously considering the Mjolnir, but then what DAC would I get with the $250 left over?  I mean I could push it to maybe $450 for the DAC, but is there anything that would be considerably better than the modi I have?


----------



## Chris_Himself

panerai said:


> Oh, and I'm seriously considering the Mjolnir, but then what DAC would I get with the $250 left over?  I mean I could push it to maybe $450 for the DAC, but is there anything that would be considerably better than the modi I have?




The Gungnir is considerably better than the Bifrost, so I'd imagine there is a fair bit of performance difference between Modi and Bifrost.

If you can push it, I honestly recommend the HRT MSII+. It's probably the last DAC you'll ever need and I've been saying this over the last couple years.

If you are wondering if the Mjolnir is good, it absolutely is. I purchased it based on some findings that perhaps it was better than some of the Beta22 builds that exceed $1200 in price, so based on that I was immediately sold on it.


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





panerai said:


> Oh, and I'm seriously considering the Mjolnir, but then what DAC would I get with the $250 left over?  I mean I could push it to maybe $450 for the DAC, but is there anything that would be considerably better than the modi I have?


 
   
   
  How about this one.
   
  http://www.mav-audio.com/base/product/tubemagic_d2
   

   
   
  Or if you need to go balanced how about this one.    http://shop.emotiva.com/collections/processors/products/xda2


----------



## longbowbbs

Quote: 





dave1109 said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Long wait for this baby!


----------



## Kendoji

Does the new Taboo revision no longer 'need' a pre-amp?  They don't seem to mention it as much in the description any more.


----------



## V-Duh

Steve mentioned on the Decware forum that it's not 'needed' now. 

[quote="Steve]
As a stand alone product, the fact that it worked better with a preamp or high output DAC was a deal killer for many people, so that's one of the main things I changed about it, giving it enough gain on it's own now, so that the CSP2+ preamp is no longer needed for best results.[/quote]


----------



## Kendoji

Oh awesome, that does make it instantly more tempting.  Thanks.


----------



## V-Duh

I was tempted enough to order. The new look helped too.


----------



## longbowbbs

I talked to Steve about the pre-amp combo, since I have the CSP2+ already. He said that you would blend the volume controls of the two units to personal taste rather than the Pre-amp being the only volume control as normal.


----------



## V-Duh

Although your conversation probably leaned mostly toward the Taboo, by some chance did Steve mention revising the CSP2+'s capabilities or looks?


----------



## OPR8R

Quote: 





v-duh said:


> I was tempted enough to order. The new look helped too.


 
   
   
  Welcome to the Christmas in May club!


----------



## longbowbbs

Quote: 





opr8r said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  +1


----------



## Argo Duck

^ *very* tempted to order, but still exploring the limits of the previous Taboo. And yes, Steve upped the gain so a preamp is no longer needed - although it wasn't *essential* before. (I found taboo alone very transparent, with further tube-rolling needed to retain this transparency once I added the csp2).

As well, I think Steve has altered the power profile to suit magneplanars better - taboo was originally a pure speaker amp.


----------



## bareyb

Anyone using a Burson Soloist Amp? They have FOUR WATTS of power. I was surprised how powerful they are. Less than a grand...


----------



## oqvist

Another powerful amp. Holographic Audio Ear One. 3W at 32 ohms. Had it for two days and it´s really nice if you are looking for something transparent. Incredible easy listening also without the Ingvar Öhman crossfeed.
http://www.holographicaudio.com/headphone-amp.html


----------



## philo50

I am a Burson fanboy but don't lijke how they list their measurables....the 4W is into 16, not the more usual 32.....


----------



## bareyb

Quote: 





philo50 said:


> I am a Burson fanboy but don't lijke how they list their measurables....the 4W is into 16, not the more usual 32.....


 
  True... Which means it's probably more like 3 Watts @32 ohm. The other thing they don't state is if that Total Peak output of if that's RMS. If it's RMS then that thing has a TON of power (double it)  but I'm guessing it's not RMS....


----------



## longbowbbs

Quote: 





argo duck said:


> ^ *very* tempted to order, but still exploring the limits of the previous Taboo. And yes, Steve upped the gain so a preamp is no longer needed - although it wasn't *essential* before. (I found taboo alone very transparent, with further tube-rolling needed to retain this transparency once I added the csp2).
> 
> As well, I think Steve has altered the power profile to suit magneplanars better - taboo was originally a pure speaker amp.


 
  Steve said he built it with the LCD-2 as the primary HP in mind.


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





philo50 said:


> I am a Burson fanboy but don't lijke how they list their measurables....the 4W is into 16, not the more usual 32.....


 
  LoL, that's because 1.5 or 2 W into 32 ohms doesn't sound as good.


----------



## KingStyles

> LoL, that's because 1.5 or 2 W into 32 ohms doesn't sound as good. tongue.gif




The BA is aprox 1.5 watts and it sounds better (imo) than any of the other amps I have heard with the audeze regardless of there wattage. Wattage isnt everything, but it is a good starting point.


----------



## Panerai

Quote: 





kingstyles said:


> The BA is aprox 1.5 watts and it sounds better (imo) than any of the other amps I have heard with the audeze regardless of there wattage. Wattage isnt everything, but it is a good starting point.


 
  He meant sound good from a marketing perspective.


----------



## KingStyles

Whoops, yes from a marketing view, more wattage sounds better.


----------



## bareyb

Quote: 





kingstyles said:


> The BA is aprox 1.5 watts and it sounds better (imo) than any of the other amps I have heard with the audeze regardless of there wattage. Wattage isnt everything, but it is a good starting point.


 
  What's a "BA"?


----------



## longbowbbs

Quote: 





bareyb said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Eddie Current Balancing Act tube amp...
   
  http://www.eddiecurrent.com/Balancing_Act.html
   
  Arguably one of the the pinnacle's of Tube based dynamic amps.


----------



## MorbidToaster

No argument. It's definitely one of the best.
   
  Quote: 





longbowbbs said:


> Eddie Current Balancing Act tube amp...
> 
> http://www.eddiecurrent.com/Balancing_Act.html
> 
> Arguably one of the the pinnacle's of Tube based dynamic amps.


----------



## bareyb

Quote: 





longbowbbs said:


> Eddie Current Balancing Act tube amp...
> 
> http://www.eddiecurrent.com/Balancing_Act.html
> 
> Arguably one of the the pinnacle's of Tube based dynamic amps.


 
  Oh man... That's a sweet Amp. Haven't seen a review snippet like that in a while... 
   
   


> _"I’ll cut straight to the core of my sonic impressions and flat-out declare this amp, easily heard within the first few minutes of listening, to offer the most expansive, most realistic soundstaging of any headphone amp I have ever listened to. Its damn right other-worldly, and is simply instant transportation into something very hard to describe but easily heard and felt."​_


----------



## mentt

I compared headphone out from Audiolab M-DAC and Audiolab M-DAC/V200 combo with my LCD2r2, well I prefer headphone out from Audiolab M-DAC. Returned V200...


----------



## Panerai

Thank you for the DAC recommendations.
  How is the HRT II+ so good while still being tiny?  Does that mean all the other DACs that are huge are just a bunch of fluff?
   
  Anyways... running a HD600 off my magni, I turned the knob to 9 o'clock.
  With the LCD-2's I turn it to 9.25 o'clock.
  I thought the LCD-2 was a lot harder to drive than the 600's?
  Could anyone explain this?


----------



## djevoultion

Quote: 





panerai said:


> Thank you for the DAC recommendations.
> How is the HRT II+ so good while still being tiny?  Does that mean all the other DACs that are huge are just a bunch of fluff?
> 
> Anyways... running a HD600 off my magni, I turned the knob to 9 o'clock.
> ...


 
   
  Yes, just because your getting volume out the amp, does not necessarily mean it is 'driving' the headphone - ie providing the power it needs to sound its potential.


----------



## Panerai

Ok, I understand that loudness does that always mean driven better, but shouldn't the LCD-2 be a bit quieter at the same level on the volume knob that I use for HD600's?
  Also, that amp from TABOO is looking so delicious lol.  $1500?  I could probably save that up... sell my magni... skip the DAC for now... oh damn... my wallet...
   
  What do you guys think about their claim about it being the best amp for LCD-2?


----------



## longbowbbs

Quote: 





panerai said:


> Ok, I understand that loudness does that always mean driven better, but shouldn't the LCD-2 be a bit quieter at the same level on the volume knob that I use for HD600's?
> Also, that amp from TABOO is looking so delicious lol.  $1500?  I could probably save that up... sell my magni... skip the DAC for now... oh damn... my wallet...
> 
> What do you guys think about their claim about it being the best amp for LCD-2?


 
  Steve is a heck of an engineer. He also has justifiable pride in his work. His goal was an all out attempt on the best he could build for the LCD-2's. Given his other products terrific capabilities, it is a sure bet this will be a major amp. Versatile too considering the tube rolling,multiple SE or Balanced outputs and built in pre-amp.


----------



## alto63

The best SS headphone amp I have heard with LCD-2 is C.E.C HD 53N.
I also like the headphone output of the great Antelope Audio Zodiac Gold DAC.


----------



## ohsoslo

So after reading through, the Schiit Asgard 2 is about the best amp under ~$250 for the LCD2.2s?
  I also looked at Maverick Audio's amps/dacs, but the response on here is a bit negative


----------



## oqvist

Done some more testing. Holographic Audio Ear One certainly share a lot in common with the Goldpoint Headphone Pro. Here in Sweden the Ear One is a better deal though. It has pre out, balanced XLR in if you have such a DAC , crossfeed and impedance switch for less money then importing a GHP. Have no high impedance headphones to try with but that isn´t the forte of the GHP as I felt 
   
  Great transparent solid state amp with superb clarity.


----------



## pandastyle

So I've narrowed my choices down to the Schiit Lyr, Burson Soloist-SL, and Woo WA6. What should I get?


----------



## bareyb

Quote: 





pandastyle said:


> So I've narrowed my choices down to the Schiit Lyr, Burson Soloist-SL, and Woo WA6. What should I get?


 
  Get the Burson. It will validate the money I just spent on mine!


----------



## pandastyle

Quote: 





bareyb said:


> Get the Burson. It will validate the money I just spent on mine!


 
  Well, that's a good reason to spend my money!


----------



## bareyb

Quote: 





pandastyle said:


> Well, that's a good reason to spend my money!


 
  I'm always willing to help other people spend their money! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Seriously though. From all I've read, they are fantastic Amps. Lots of Bass and smooth detailed highs. Power for days... I needed something I can lug around and "The Conductor" is perfect for that. Just need my laptop,  the Amp and a USB cable and I'm good to go. Anyway, for my purposes it's seems like it's going to be the best DAC/Amp that I'm going to find. There are several reviews on Burson's Website for the Soloist if you are interested in doing some more research. 
   
  I have never heard a Woo, but I know those have a great reputation too. The Lyrs are on backorder right now, so you'd have to wait a week to ten days before they would ship one. The Burson is the only Solid State Amp on your wish list but as Solid States go, they Burson's are said to have a very Tubey sound for a Solid State. It's also got the extreme BALLS that a solid state amp brings. Great Bass with lots of control. 
  So for me, the convenience and reliability (and BASS) of a good solid state won me over. Any of those three Amps would be great though. You have certainly done your homework.


----------



## Megalomaniak

Quote: 





pandastyle said:


> So I've narrowed my choices down to the Schiit Lyr, Burson Soloist-SL, and Woo WA6. What should I get?


 
  You should look to the Violectric V200 too


----------



## Dubstep Girl

baby soloist or lyr, unless you're looking at the WA6-SE, the WA6 won't be as good with the LCD-2


----------



## Chris_Himself

Quote: 





panerai said:


> Thank you for the DAC recommendations.
> How is the HRT II+ so good while still being tiny?  Does that mean all the other DACs that are huge are just a bunch of fluff?
> 
> Anyways... running a HD600 off my magni, I turned the knob to 9 o'clock.
> ...


 
   
  I have no idea.. their product documentation is rather vague on Amazon as well. Most DAC's I have found to be a bunch of fluff.
   
  I really liked the Burson Soloist after I listened to it, I think it pretty much is neck and neck with the Mjolnir. It's a tricky market.


----------



## sling5s

Quote: 





megalomaniak said:


> You should look to the Violectric V200 too


 
  2X


----------



## Landmantx

Decware Taboo MKIII, Christmas in May +1. I can't wait to lay my grubby paws on that object of beauty!!!


----------



## longbowbbs

Quote: 





landmantx said:


> Decware Taboo MKIII, Christmas in May +1. I can't wait to lay my grubby paws on that object of beauty!!!


 
  I will to see one Wednesday when I am at Decware. Mine should be done in May as well.


----------



## OPR8R

Quote: 





longbowbbs said:


> I will to see one Wednesday when I am at Decware. Mine should be done in May as well.


 
   
  Can't wait to see pictures and impressions.
   
  We need Christmas in May t-shirts


----------



## negura

megalomaniak said:


> You should look to the Violectric V200 too






sling5s said:


> 2X




Agree


----------



## Argo Duck

^ Meier Classic also good with LCD2


----------



## mentt

Quote: 





megalomaniak said:


> You should look to the Violectric V200 too


 
  To my ears V200 was not good match for LCD-2...


----------



## KingStyles

> To my ears V200 was not good match for LCD-2...




agreed


----------



## negura

Could either of the above please elaborate?


----------



## oqvist

For me it has a bit of a v-shaped signature that don´t complement the LCD-2 to well. Interesting to listen to but I preferred my LCD-2 on more neutral and transparent amplifiers. V200 is not even close to do what my tube amp does anyway. The noise floor isn´t the best either but I had great fun listening to my LCD-2 with it. I do preferr the Goldpoint Headphone Pro, Audio GD C-2.1 over it. All quite transparent amplifiers to my ears. By interpolation the Holographic Audio Ear One do quite good though I wonder if not the C-2.1 still complement the LCD-2 best. It´s really close though and depend a bit on which revision I run. I am generally hunting a bit of treble with the Rev1 and sometimes a bit of warmth with my Rev2.


----------



## mentt

V200 is somewhat muddy, has less detail\resolution, also I would say little bit distorted and harsh. And has smaller soundstage...


----------



## Poladise

Similar here. I demoed the v200 and soloist together for 2 weeks and was in disbelief
  at all the positive impressions I'd read through in the v200 thread.
   
  - highs too rolled off
 - bass muddy at times and makes many instruments sound dull, thick and veiled
  - plastic / glassy sound quality occasionally
  - no sense of air around instruments


----------



## Kendoji

Good lord, I can think of a lot of words to describe the V200, but 'muddy', 'distorted', 'harsh' and 'v-shaped' are not among them.  Yikes.  Granted, I don't have an LCD-2 and of course everyone is entitled to their perspective, but I do have the V200 and find it to be a great amp with my Hifimans.  It has a tinge of warmth, but as a great quality neutral amp it doesn't 'sound like' anything.  Quite a few people regard it as a perfect match with the LCD-2.  Just thought I'd throw out a contrasting opinion before anyone gets the idea that there's a consensus here about the V200 being in anyway a crappy amp.


----------



## marillion64

Quote: 





mentt said:


> I compared headphone out from Audiolab M-DAC and Audiolab M-DAC/V200 combo with my LCD2r2, well I prefer headphone out from Audiolab M-DAC. Returned V200...


 
  Come on..the headphone out of the M-Dac really sucks. How can you say that??


----------



## sling5s

I too find the V200 especially combined with the V800 to be neutral with a touch of warmth and holographic soundstaging.  
  However, I have read somewhere in the V200 thread that those who tried bassy closed headphones did experience the "muddiness" you may be describing from the V200. 
   
  Quote: 





kendoji said:


> Good lord, I can think of a lot of words to describe the V200, but 'muddy', 'distorted', 'harsh' and 'v-shaped' are not among them.  Yikes.  Granted, I don't have an LCD-2 and of course everyone is entitled to their perspective, but I do have the V200 and find it to be a great amp with my Hifimans.  It has a tinge of warmth, but as a great quality neutral amp it doesn't 'sound like' anything.  Quite a few people regard it as a perfect match with the LCD-2.  Just thought I'd throw out a contrasting opinion before anyone gets the idea that there's a consensus here about the V200 being in anyway a crappy amp.


----------



## mentt

Quote: 





marillion64 said:


> Come on..the headphone out of the M-Dac really sucks. How can you say that??


 
  Did you A/B M-DAC headphone out with v200?


----------



## LugBug1

Quote: 





oqvist said:


> For me it has a bit of a v-shaped signature that don´t complement the LCD-2 to well. Interesting to listen to but I preferred my LCD-2 on more neutral and transparent amplifiers. V200 is not even close to do what my tube amp does anyway. The noise floor isn´t the best either but I had great fun listening to my LCD-2 with it. I do preferr the Goldpoint Headphone Pro,* Audio GD C-2.1* over it. All quite transparent amplifiers to my ears. By interpolation the Holographic Audio Ear One do quite good though *I wonder if not the C-2.1 still complement the LCD-2 best*. It´s really close though and depend a bit on which revision I run. I am generally hunting a bit of treble with the Rev1 and sometimes a bit of warmth with my Rev2.


 
  Nice to see some praise for this amp. I've got the C2.2 and its still the best that I've heard with the LCD2's and HE500's. To be fair I haven't heard many high end amps but in comparsion to a lot of mid price offerings, it is a very good amp.


----------



## kingice10

Quote: 





opr8r said:


> Can't wait to see pictures and impressions.
> 
> We need Christmas in May t-shirts


 
  X2
   
  Im near purchasing the Taboo MKIII, but WA6-SE is also around the corner. I only heard/demoed Schiit products but I liked the Woo Audio WA6-SE more. I hope MKIII can keep up as well.


----------



## RedBull

oqvist said:


> For me it has a bit of a v-shaped signature that don´t complement the LCD-2 to well. Interesting to listen to but I preferred my LCD-2 on more neutral and transparent amplifiers. V200 is not even close to do what my tube amp does anyway. The noise floor isn´t the best either but I had great fun listening to my LCD-2 with it. I do preferr the Goldpoint Headphone Pro, Audio GD C-2.1 over it. All quite transparent amplifiers to my ears. By interpolation the Holographic Audio Ear One do quite good though I wonder if not the C-2.1 still complement the LCD-2 best. It´s really close though and depend a bit on which revision I run. I am generally hunting a bit of treble with the Rev1 and sometimes a bit of warmth with my Rev2.




Have you heard Lehmann BCL oqvist?


----------



## oqvist

No haven't heard that one


----------



## oqvist

No haven't heard that one


----------



## RedBull

Ok, I am hoping to kmow comparison between bcl and audio gd c2.x. Audio gd DACs are fantastic, but still wonder how their amps sounds like. I heard Phoenix for a short while at friend' s place though.

 Anyone?


----------



## sling5s

I guess it's all matter of preference.  I had the Audio GD 2.1 and their NFB-3 dac and preferred the V200 by a lot and the V800 by even more. 
   
  Quote: 





oqvist said:


> For me it has a bit of a v-shaped signature that don´t complement the LCD-2 to well. Interesting to listen to but I preferred my LCD-2 on more neutral and transparent amplifiers. V200 is not even close to do what my tube amp does anyway. The noise floor isn´t the best either but I had great fun listening to my LCD-2 with it. I do preferr the Goldpoint Headphone Pro, Audio GD C-2.1 over it. All quite transparent amplifiers to my ears. By interpolation the Holographic Audio Ear One do quite good though I wonder if not the C-2.1 still complement the LCD-2 best. It´s really close though and depend a bit on which revision I run. I am generally hunting a bit of treble with the Rev1 and sometimes a bit of warmth with my Rev2.


----------



## marillion64

Quote: 





mentt said:


> Did you A/B M-DAC headphone out with v200?


 
  Yes. I own the V200 and a friend of mine got the Mdac. The headphone out of the Mdac is very poor sounding. Not even close to the good quality or V200


----------



## myap2328

Hi! I was wondering if a RSA Sr-71A/B can drive the LCD-2. It's really thought to get a good desktop amp here in Singapore. There is only one that is reputable which is the rsa dark star which costs a mind boggling price!


----------



## mentt

Quote: 





marillion64 said:


> Yes. I own the V200 and a friend of mine got the Mdac. The headphone out of the Mdac is very poor sounding. Not even close to the good quality or V200


 
  Which firmware version had your friends Mdac?


----------



## BRAC

djevoultion said:


> I have been offered a HA-160DS Amp for the LCD2.
> 
> After looking at the specs, it lists it as 250mw output. Burson informs me it will output 100mw into 50ohm .
> 
> ...




Although there are better sounding amps for the LCD2, not to worry, the HA160 will drive the LCD2 just fine. If the HA160 is one of the only options available to you, go ahead and pick one up, I don't think you will be disappointed. 

That said, maybe the new Soloist SL would be a better option. It will have more power and likely sound better as well. Plus, I think the cost is roughly equivalent.


----------



## zekioflo

I bought a LCD3, and really don't know whart to take.
  DAC+AMP our DAC/AMP:
  With my research i found Schiit MAGNIR+MOLJNIR or Audio-GD 27, what do you think or if you have a better option?
  I am listening Rock/Hard Rock/Post Rock.
  Ty


----------



## dan.gheorghe

Quote: 





zekioflo said:


> I bought a LCD3, and really don't know whart to take.
> DAC+AMP our DAC/AMP:
> With my research i found Schiit MAGNIR+MOLJNIR or Audio-GD 27, what do you think or if you have a better option?
> I am listening Rock/Hard Rock/Post Rock.
> Ty


 
  I have auditioned LCD3, and found that Burson Conductor is a really good match for both LCD2 and LCD3.


----------



## Chris_Himself

Quote: 





zekioflo said:


> I bought a LCD3, and really don't know whart to take.
> DAC+AMP our DAC/AMP:
> With my research i found Schiit MAGNIR+MOLJNIR or Audio-GD 27, what do you think or if you have a better option?
> I am listening Rock/Hard Rock/Post Rock.
> Ty


 
   
  I have the Schiit Stack, 100% happy. But usually when questions are asked, it really boils down to a popularity contest and it's always Violectric, Schiit, and Burson.
   
  I am actually very very fond of the AGD stuff though. He's done some great stuff for unbelievable prices.


----------



## marillion64

For what I know it's the latest available. But I don'r really think that the firmare has effects on the headphone out.


----------



## myap2328

Sorry for repost but it seems, I didn't get an answer. Will the LCD-2 be driven by the Ray Samuel Audio SR-71A?
  I can exactly get a proper desktop amp here in my country so my only option is a high-end portable amp kinda seem
  like the only way to go. I heard Tyll at innerfidelity say the  SR-71, the SR-71A's succesor, that it is a portable amp
  with desktop amp performance. Or should I get the RSA Predator because it has  a built in DAC?


----------



## Chris_Himself

Quote: 





myap2328 said:


> Sorry for repost but it seems, I didn't get an answer. Will the LCD-2 be driven by the Ray Samuel Audio SR-71A?
> I can exactly get a proper desktop amp here in my country so my only option is a high-end portable amp kinda seem
> like the only way to go. I heard Tyll at innerfidelity say the  SR-71, the SR-71A's succesor, that it is a portable amp
> with desktop amp performance. Or should I get the RSA Predator because it has  a built in DAC?


 
   
  More than fine. RSA Predator will do it too, but the LCD-2 isn't really that unforgiving of bad source, just make sure whatever is going into it is alright and you'll be happy if you already have an SR-71A.
   
  If you need a compact amp that isnt' terrible to ship, I have experience with the Audio GD and a few other sub $500 dac/amps and I can say that AGD is great bang per buck in a small package that won't cost you $100 in shipping.


----------



## myap2328

So you





chris_himself said:


> More than fine. RSA Predator will do it too, but the LCD-2 isn't really that unforgiving of bad source, just make sure whatever is going into it is alright and you'll be happy if you already have an SR-71A.
> 
> If you need a compact amp that isnt' terrible to ship, I have experience with the Audio GD and a few other sub $500 dac/amps and I can say that AGD is great bang per buck in a small package that won't cost you $100 in shipping.




What do you mean by bad source? Is it the music file quality or the device which is playing the music. If you are talking about the device, will a iPhone 4S suffice or I need to get a receiver or something. Btw, is a receiver like a desktop sized amp?


----------



## RedBull

OK, now let's put WA7 on the table.  Who's gonna comment on those? (except Currawong, of course), looks like a little cute and pretty sound.


----------



## kskwerl

Can anyone comment on what would be an upgrade below 1500 USD coming from the Schiit Lyr. I'm open to tube and SS. I really want the Decware Taboo MKIII but it's kind of over budget.


----------



## Girls Generation

Depends if you have an adequate DAC or not.
  Quote: 





kskwerl said:


> Can anyone comment on what would be an upgrade below 1500 USD coming from the Schiit Lyr. I'm open to tube and SS. I really want the Decware Taboo MKIII but it's kind of over budget.


----------



## R-Audiohead

Quote: 





kskwerl said:


> Can anyone comment on what would be an upgrade below 1500 USD coming from the Schiit Lyr. I'm open to tube and SS. I really want the Decware Taboo MKIII but it's kind of over budget.


 

 I've said it in this thread before,
   
  But people with the Bryston BHA-1 and LCD 2 are loving the combo - even some people who have rolled through a lot of amps.
   
  I demoed it with the LCD 2 myself and was pretty impressed.  It was the first ortho I've heard that doesn't necessarily have that very distinguishable ortho treble (only a very brief listening session - I bet it would still show itself).
   
  Anyway, if you like the bass the LCD2 has to offer, the Bryston pushes it with ease


----------



## Dubstep Girl

Quote: 





r-audiohead said:


> I've said it in this thread before,
> 
> But people with the Bryston BHA-1 and LCD 2 are loving the combo - even some people who have rolled through a lot of amps.
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  ortho bass!!


----------



## R-Audiohead

Quote: 





dubstep girl said:


> ortho bass!!


 

 I'd just say the ortho sound in its entirety is pretty distinguishable, even if it is hard to put into words.
   
  There is a specificity to the treble and midrange that I seem to hear consistently on orthos, headphones and speakers alike.
   
  It could be the way the bass mids and treble interact.  Who knows, the whole spectrum plays a role in the overall sound
   
  EDIT - I know what you mean by the bass though, and the LCD2 had more slam than what is typically a more tonal bass in an ortho, so I guess in that regard it didn't sound a whole lot like a classic ortho also!


----------



## kskwerl

r-audiohead said:


> I've said it in this thread before,
> 
> But people with the Bryston BHA-1 and LCD 2 are loving the combo - even some people who have rolled through a lot of amps.
> 
> ...




Thanks for the input, would the BHA-1 be an upgrade from the Lyr?


----------



## longbowbbs

Quote: 





kskwerl said:


> Can anyone comment on what would be an upgrade below 1500 USD coming from the Schiit Lyr. I'm open to tube and SS. I really want the Decware Taboo MKIII but it's kind of over budget.


 
  You may want to watch the for sale area here and on Audiogon. With the new Taboo out, there will be some MK II's available for a good value. Great little amp.


----------



## kskwerl

Quote: 





longbowbbs said:


> You may want to watch the for sale area here and on Audiogon. With the new Taboo out, there will be some MK II's available for a good value. Great little amp.


 
  I see you have the CSP2+, how much of a step up is the Taboo? That Taboo MKIII is one awesome looking amp and I hear they sound great.
   
  As for the BHA-1 I would def consider it if I could hear more impressions. Is it just fantastic with the LCD-2s or is it great in general etc.


----------



## kskwerl

lowbow is there anyway you could give me a quick run down on how the Taboo MKII sounds with headphones you've used with it, it'd be more than appreciated!


----------



## Girls Generation

Get a DAC.
  Quote: 





kskwerl said:


> lowbow is there anyway you could give me a quick run down on how the Taboo MKII sounds with headphones you've used with it, it'd be more than appreciated!


----------



## kskwerl

Quote: 





girls generation said:


> Get a DAC.


 
  A+ post, would read again.


----------



## Girls Generation

Not joking. Get a DAC first. Or, distribute $1500 on both DAC and an amp.
  Quote: 





kskwerl said:


> A+ post, would read again.


----------



## kskwerl

Quote: 





girls generation said:


> Not joking. Get a DAC first. Or, distribute $1500 on both DAC and an amp.


 
  ok I thought you were just being a jerk. I would also consider the schiit combo you have but I just don't know what to do. I really loved my Lyr!


----------



## Chris_Himself

Audio GD 10.32
   
  I've listened to HE-6 on it and it was beautiful. It was $600 and runs fully balanced operation. Also has a remote so you don't have to get hot cheeto fingers on your volume knob


----------



## Girls Generation

I am a jerk. But a serious jerk.
   
  It depends but the Mjolnir is a considerable step up to the Lyr, and same goes for Gungnir vs. Bifrost. For the price the M/G stack is unbeatable, and many share this opinion. If you have $1500 to spend, you're going to get better performance out of a good dac and amp versus a low-fi dac and a slightly better amp. Trust me. Or upgrade headphones, and wait until you have more $ saved up. :|
   
  Quote: 





kskwerl said:


> ok I thought you were just being a jerk. I would also consider the schiit combo you have but I just don't know what to do. I really loved my Lyr!


----------



## kskwerl

girls generation said:


> I am a jerk. But a serious jerk.
> 
> It depends but the Mjolnir is a considerable step up to the Lyr, and same goes for Gungnir vs. Bifrost. For the price the M/G stack is unbeatable, and many share this opinion. If you have $1500 to spend, you're going to get better performance out of a good dac and amp versus a low-fi dac and a slightly better amp. Trust me. Or upgrade headphones, and wait until you have more $ saved up. :|




Thanks, I've been considering the M/G stack for some time and think I may take the plunge!


----------



## Dubstep Girl

Quote: 





girls generation said:


> Not joking. Get a DAC first. Or, distribute $1500 on both DAC and an amp.


 
   
   
  +1


----------



## paradoxper

GG has the right idea with thought to balance, but not with your current staple of cans. IMO, that's wasting money.


----------



## Dubstep Girl

^ he has LCD-2 as well though (or so i think that's his plan) 
   
  for LCD-2 its definitely needed.


----------



## Chris_Himself

Quote: 





girls generation said:


> I am a jerk. But a serious jerk.
> 
> It depends but the Mjolnir is a considerable step up to the Lyr, and same goes for Gungnir vs. Bifrost. For the price the M/G stack is unbeatable, and many share this opinion. If you have $1500 to spend, you're going to get better performance out of a good dac and amp versus a low-fi dac and a slightly better amp. Trust me. Or upgrade headphones, and wait until you have more $ saved up. :|


 
   
  You have to listen to the AGD 10.32 for sure bud. It's the only headamp that I didn't have to use 75% gain on with HE-6 and it was equally at home with Denon D7100 in single-ended mode. Of course, Mjo will run train on that rig, but I'm just sayin' there are other good things. That combined with the remote function ams pretty brutal Toki's.
   
  I like knowing that if Schiit goes south I just mail it to Jason south of me and we're all good though and if I have to pay good money for that, and I'm supporting 'MERICA (#1), thats fine by me.. but a blanket statement saying that $1500 is MjoGun and nothing else could possibly come off as ignant homie. Again you have to keep in mind that the Violectric V200 exists plus I'm not sure if there is a DAC that beats Gung, but still thats possibly a great combo too.
   
  I wonder whatever happened to the HeadRoom amps and how well they're doing up against the modern stuff these days.


----------



## NumLock

Is there a big difference going from a Meier Concerto to a Burson Soloist?


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





dubstep girl said:


> ^ he has LCD-2 as well though (or so i think that's his plan)
> 
> for LCD-2 its definitely needed.


 
  The LCD-2 isn't much of a scaler though. Not when compared against the rest of upper-mid/hifi.
   
  I think a Lyr and Bifrost is one of the funnest LCD-2 experience out there.
   
  But of course, it does get better.


----------



## Chris_Himself

Quote: 





numlock said:


> Is there a big difference going from a Meier Concerto to a Burson Soloist?


 
   
  I'm still somewhat of a noob despite my forum presence stats, but I think the Burson can honestly be considered an end-game  single ended amp based on the unit I heard at a local meet.
   
  I can say with confidence that the Meier Concerto is not weaksauce though, it was the amp-only section of the Meier Symphony which was amp-porn to us guys back in the day when 650, 701, DT880,etc were king. I just think that the Burson was designed for a new era of thirsty headphones like orthos. T1, etc. It's very strong.


----------



## kskwerl

Thanks for all the input guys, I think I'm gunna head over to the M/G thread as well. I would like to own the HE6 in the future so if the 10.32 gets spanked by the schiit stack then ill go schiit


----------



## Chris_Himself

Quote: 





kskwerl said:


> Thanks for all the input guys, I think I'm gunna head over to the M/G thread as well. I would like to own the HE6 in the future so if the 10.32 gets spanked by the schiit stack then ill go schiit


 
   
  I can barely hear the difference between amps at the top-tier level so you may have to ask someone with better ears. That 10.32 rig was being run by someone with a presumably endless money supply so it impressed me that at even that level of headphone-ing, AGD was still being considered by audiophiles.
   
  He had this really effin' badass Norse like 16 wire cable too on his 6's hehe.
   
  I mean, look at the specs dude, 9950mw @ 25ohms in balanced? Geez. But again, you always enjoy talking about stuff you don't own, but make no mistake I couldn't be more thrilled with my MjoGung.


----------



## kskwerl

chris_himself said:


> I can barely hear the difference between amps at the top-tier level so you may have to ask someone with better ears. That 10.32 rig was being run by someone with a presumably endless money supply so it impressed me that at even that level of headphone-ing, AGD was still being considered by audiophiles.
> 
> He had this really effin' badass Norse like 16 wire cable too on his 6's hehe.
> 
> I mean, look at the specs dude, 9950mw @ 25ohms in balanced? Geez. But again, you always enjoy talking about stuff you don't own, but make no mistake I couldn't be more thrilled with my MjoGung.




Yea that's some serious power. I see a lot of reviews on there preamps but not so many in there lower end gear. Oh btw my cups for my magnums are finally on the way so ill be sending you my V5 drivers soon!


----------



## Girls Generation

I personally do not like the V200 because the Mjo does everything but pianos better. For the price of new I don't think it's a better deal than the Mjo at all. The reason why I'd suggest M/G is because you don't need to go rolling DACs for synergy with the stack. Plus it looks sexy.  650 for a used mjo/gung is a pretty good deal for the price, and then factor in resale value and ease.
  Quote: 





chris_himself said:


> You have to listen to the AGD 10.32 for sure bud. It's the only headamp that I didn't have to use 75% gain on with HE-6 and it was equally at home with Denon D7100 in single-ended mode. Of course, Mjo will run train on that rig, but I'm just sayin' there are other good things. That combined with the remote function ams pretty brutal Toki's.
> 
> I like knowing that if Schiit goes south I just mail it to Jason south of me and we're all good though and if I have to pay good money for that, and I'm supporting 'MERICA (#1), thats fine by me.. but a blanket statement saying that $1500 is MjoGun and nothing else could possibly come off as ignant homie. Again you have to keep in mind that the Violectric V200 exists plus I'm not sure if there is a DAC that beats Gung, but still thats possibly a great combo too.
> 
> I wonder whatever happened to the HeadRoom amps and how well they're doing up against the modern stuff these days.


----------



## Chris_Himself

Quote: 





kskwerl said:


> Yea that's some serious power. I see a lot of reviews on there preamps but not so many in there lower end gear. Oh btw my cups for my magnums are finally on the way so ill be sending you my V5 drivers soon!


 
   
  I'm not involved in the drivers or the cups operation actually so that whole train of communication isn't actually available to me... but glad you're onboard!
   
  Quote: 





girls generation said:


> I personally do not like the V200 because the Mjo does everything but pianos better. For the price of new I don't think it's a better deal than the Mjo at all. The reason why I'd suggest M/G is because you don't need to go rolling DACs for synergy with the stack. Plus it looks sexy.  650 for a used mjo/gung is a pretty good deal for the price, and then factor in resale value and ease.


 
   
  Not everybody has access to balanced cables though.. so you have to factor in $80 for the Audeze balanced cable at the least. But yes that is true that you can pretty much write off synnergy out of the equation with MjoGun. $650 per each unit used? Tempting.. but do I want to have to wait 2 weeks for shipping for one of those Wunder-Azn amps?


----------



## paradoxper

$30 has your SE re-terminated to XLR though. So it's not exactly a expensive venture.


----------



## kskwerl

paradoxper said:


> $30 has your SE re-terminated to XLR though. So it's not exactly a expensive venture.




I also think that if I was gunna spend the money on the schiit stack what's another 200-300 bucks over time to recable my cans


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





kskwerl said:


> I also think that if I was gunna spend the money on the schiit stack what's another 200-300 bucks over time to recable my cans


 
  Right. That's most owner's thoughts. But you could have multiples of recabled cans for under $100 even.


----------



## kskwerl

paradoxper said:


> Right. That's most owner's thoughts. But you could have multiples of recabled cans for under $100 even.




This is true


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





kskwerl said:


> This is true


 
   
  Going by your profile you have Grados and Audio Technicas - is that correct?  
   
  You don't have your Mad Dogs or LCDs anymore?


----------



## Chartreuse

If the HRT MSII can perform in line with the more expensive DACs, then does it make more sense to get one of those + a Burson Soloist ($1100 total) vs. the burson Concerto ($1850)? 
   
   
   
  Quote: 





chris_himself said:


> I have no idea.. their product documentation is rather vague on Amazon as well. Most DAC's I have found to be a bunch of fluff.
> 
> I really liked the Burson Soloist after I listened to it, I think it pretty much is neck and neck with the Mjolnir. It's a tricky market.


----------



## negura

Quote: 





chartreuse said:


> If the HRT MSII can perform in line with the more expensive DACs, then does it make more sense to get one of those + a Burson Soloist ($1100 total) vs. the burson Concerto ($1850)?


 
   
  Assuming you meant Burson Conductor, I have recently upgraded to it and I am very pleased with the synergy using the LCD-2. I find the Burson to be towards neutral while at the same time not bright at all, with good soundstage, very detailed and with good low-end mass. I have also assessed the Burson Conductor DAC using my V200 amp, and the synergy there was great as well. What was more agonising was deciding what sounds best between the V200 and Soloist (amp part of the Conductor) as they both drive the LCD-2 so well, yet sound different.  I have concluded this is as a draw between the two.
   
  I haven't heard the HRT MSII, but I did plug-in a budget DAC with both the V200 and Soloist (Conductor), priced to around the same as the HRT, which is also considered quite great value for the money and as expected it doesn't even come close to the Conductor DAC in anything from details, imaging to tone or naturalness. Whether someone would still be happy with the Soloist + budget DAC is anyone's choice I guess.
   
  It is worth considering the Burson solution is designed to work as one, so no concerns there with synergy. It will also save you some worries and money on interconnects.
   
  On the downside, the Conductor DAC is buggy when fed from USB. The bugs manifest as sometimes not starting up properly and needing a cold restart or on very rare ocassion losing connection to PC needing again a cold restart. I have checked with multiple Conductor owners and systems and this is common behaviour. It may have to do with the Tenor chip/drivers so maybe it can be addressed. The level of sound quality for the price it offers could be an argument towards saying it's offsetting the issues, but at the same time I think this  shouldn't be happening at this price level.
   
  To summarize sound wise, value wise and all considering, I fully recommend it and another plus is that it's a good fit with many headphones, from IEMs to LCD-2.


----------



## Chartreuse

Quote: 





negura said:


> Assuming you meant Burson Conductor


 
   
  Ugh, yes, too much research and it all starts to blend together. Appreciate the thoughtful response -- trying to talk myself out of spending the extra cash, but sounds like if I really want an end-game solution the Conductor may be the way to go.


----------



## kskwerl

Quote: 





preproman said:


> Going by your profile you have Grados and Audio Technicas - is that correct?
> 
> You don't have your Mad Dogs or LCDs anymore?


 
  no I sold them when we had to sell our house


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





kskwerl said:


> no I sold them when we had to sell our house


 
   
   
  Awe man - sorry about that.  It'll all work it self out.  So why do you want such a beefy amp?  But for the price you really can't beat it either way..


----------



## negura

Quote: 





chartreuse said:


> Ugh, yes, too much research and it all starts to blend together. Appreciate the thoughtful response -- trying to talk myself out of spending the extra cash, but sounds like if I really want an end-game solution the Conductor may be the way to go.


 
   
  NP - I've been there myself. Some say if you want to save money then find and get your end-game as soon as possible. I know this sometimes is a bit of a catch-22, because you only know once you've tried and sampled enough, and for some that can take years.  There are some work-arounds such as 30 days money back guarantees and assessing several things at once, if that works.
   
  From my experience so far, which is more limited than with some others here, I  am finding that getting a neutral/transparent DAC and to some extent even an AMP, goes a long way towards not having to replace them or buying another set of expensive gear for a new pair of headphones due to an outright mismatch. Without probably being a reference case here, the Burson sounds clean and neutral, while not being at all harsh, which is a big plus to me.
   
  That said I have found the Conductor an excellent choice for the LCD-2s (just as the V200 on the amping side, albeit the different sound with the latter).


----------



## longbowbbs

Quote: 





girls generation said:


> Not joking. Get a DAC first. Or, distribute $1500 on both DAC and an amp.
> Quote:
> 
> 
> ...


 
  GG and kskwerl,
   
  On many levels I can usually agree with GG's assertion. However, the new Taboo MK III is not like a normal amp. It's two Lucid mode options give you 3 types of sound adjustments, 2 of which are not on any other amp. You can listen to it straight and it is terrific. However, the 2 variations of the Lucid Mode (Old and New Lucid) create a startling change to the sound signature. 
  . 
  I am going to hold off posting my specific Taboo review until I receive mine and spend some personal time with it and my various Sennheisers and cables.
   
  I'll just say that this is an amp I would love to take to a major meet and let the big boys spend some time it. A bit of a game changer here.
   
  I will say no more!
   





   
  Prototype Taboo MK III. Toggle switch near the back next to the SE HP jack activates Old Lucid mode. There is another toggle on the other side for New Lucid mode.


----------



## longbowbbs

OK...Review is up...
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/654644/a-visit-to-decware


----------



## Girls Generation

After all this time in audio, honestly, with the LCD2 I don't think you need to spend so much on gear. I've only realized this after a long time of my own research and money spent. Just get something you can afford and enjoy the music. If you want to analyze the recording, just don't get the LCD2. Just my $0.02.


----------



## Francoy

^
  The lesser tubes I put in my Taboo tend to agree with you... But the better tubes (which happen to be prohibitively onerous) tend to disagree - If my ears are to be believed.
   
  But I get your drift that if you have LCD-2s and barely enough money left for, let’s say, a used vintage receiver from a flee market (i.e. $20) you will do just fine*.
   
   
   
  *That is until you hear them off something that can push them a little further... And it’s all downhill from there ;¬)


----------



## Girls Generation

Yeah... I mean if you got the money then by all means go for it. But if your budget is limited enough for you to have a hard time deciding on gear, researching on what performs best for the price, then that probably means you're fine with any low/mid-fi setup that can save you a lot of extra money so you can get some burgers. Modi/Magni, ODAC/O2, Bifrost/Lyr,Asgard2, Concero,Gungnir/Mjolnir. One thing to note is, getting a portable DAC and amp such as a CLAS and SR71B, for the LCD2 is such a waste... such a waste of money since for $650, you can get a used Mjolnir or Concero, and with the money to buy an RXMK3B, you can get a Mjolnir... Just my opinion.
  Quote: 





francoy said:


> ^
> The lesser tubes I put in my Taboo tend to agree with you... But the better tubes (which happen to be prohibitively onerous) tend to disagree - If my ears are to be believed.
> 
> But I get your drift that if you have LCD-2s and barely enough money left for, let’s say, a used vintage receiver from a flee market (i.e. $20) you will do just fine*.
> ...


----------



## myap2328

I read the previos posts and was wonderinf What if I cannot audition those Desktop Amps but can audition those portable amps like sr-71a, predator, etc. Shld buy the desktop amp blindly and hope for the best or Shld I buy those portable amps I can audition. Maybe I can ask for comparisons to those portable amps?


----------



## myap2328

I read the previos posts and was wonderinf What if I cannot audition those Desktop Amps but can audition those portable amps like sr-71a, predator, etc. Shld buy the desktop amp blindly and hope for the best or Shld I buy those portable amps I can audition. Maybe I can ask for comparisons to those portable amps?


----------



## LugBug1

Quote: 





girls generation said:


> After all this time in audio, honestly, with the LCD2 I don't think you need to spend so much on gear. I've only realized this after a long time of my own research and money spent. Just get something you can afford and enjoy the music. If you want to analyze the recording, just don't get the LCD2. Just my $0.02.


 
  Completely agree.
   
  I recommend the Magni at the moment, its better than most amps I've tried. Powerful and neutral. Sorted.


----------



## BRAC

Quote: 





girls generation said:


> After all this time in audio, honestly, with the LCD2 I don't think you need to spend so much on gear. I've only realized this after a long time of my own research and money spent. Just get something you can afford and enjoy the music. If you want to analyze the recording, just don't get the LCD2. Just my $0.02.


 
   
  Quote: 





lugbug1 said:


> Completely agree.
> 
> I recommend the Magni at the moment, its better than most amps I've tried. Powerful and neutral. Sorted.


 

 I would tend to disagree based on my experience with the LCD2.2. I found that my LCD2.2 scaled up quite a lot when I upgraded from an HA160 to a Soloist, and then substantially more when I moved from a Bifrost to an M51. I was shocked to say the least! Actually, my LCD2.2 improved more than my HD800 with these same upgrades and that really did surprise me. Having said that, I understand that synergy between components plays a major role here as well...
   
  Again, this is not to say that the LCD2.2 can't be enjoyed with cheaper gear, it just means that in my case the upgrades were well worth the extra cost. YMMV.


----------



## paradoxper

I think the point was more towards you don't necessarily have to
  sink big $ into the LCD-2's. Hence why they're known as sluts.
   
  They will scale only so far comparatively to the HD800, for example.


----------



## BRAC

Quote: 





paradoxper said:


> I think the point was more towards you don't necessarily have to
> sink big $ into the LCD-2's. Hence why they're known as sluts.
> 
> They will scale only so far comparatively to the HD800, for example.


 

 I agree.
   
  However, in my experience the same could be said about the HD800, which did in fact improve less with the same upgrade in electronics. Again, I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here, just giving a slightly different opinion on the subject.
   
  The one thing that I've learned is that there are no "absolutes" in this hobby.


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





brac said:


> I agree.
> 
> However, in my experience the same could be said about the HD800, which did in fact improve less with the same upgrade in electronics. Again, I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here, just giving a slightly different opinion on the subject.
> 
> The one thing that I've learned is that there are no "absolutes" in this hobby.


 
   
  The HD800s can be call a slut??  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  she's stuck up if any thing..


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





preproman said:


> The HD800s can be call a slut??
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  LOL!


----------



## Happy Camper

preproman said:


> The HD800s can be call a slut??  :blink:   she is stuck up if any thing.. :wink_face:


You know it. Such a saucey tease she is too.


----------



## Girls Generation

Really? I found HD800s crap no matter what I tried it with, with any low-fi gear.
  Quote: 





brac said:


> I agree.
> 
> However, in my experience the same could be said about the HD800, which did in fact improve less with the same upgrade in electronics. Again, I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here, just giving a slightly different opinion on the subject.
> 
> The one thing that I've learned is that there are no "absolutes" in this hobby.


----------



## BRAC

Quote: 





preproman said:


> The HD800s can be call a slut??
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  +1. Now that is just priceless!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  Quote: 





girls generation said:


> Really? I found HD800s crap no matter what I tried it with, with any low-fi gear.


 
  Well, I'm not really her biggest fan either to be honest.


----------



## negura

Quote: 





brac said:


> I would tend to disagree based on my experience with the LCD2.2. I found that my LCD2.2 scaled up quite a lot when I upgraded from an HA160 to a Soloist, and then substantially more when I moved from a Bifrost to an M51. I was shocked to say the least! Actually, my LCD2.2 improved more than my HD800 with these same upgrades and that really did surprise me. Having said that, I understand that synergy between components plays a major role here as well...
> 
> Again, this is not to say that the LCD2.2 can't be enjoyed with cheaper gear, it just means that in my case the upgrades were well worth the extra cost. YMMV.


 
   
  Similar experience. Or maybe it's not the LCD-2.2 that scales, it's just that we hear a lot more out of the same recordings with better downstream. 
  To be honest virtually all my headphones sound a lot better with higher-end gear. That's including the HD650s and IEMs.


----------



## MorbidToaster

Kinda have to agree on the HD800 being crap on almost any low/mid-fi gear. Unless we're talking syrupy OTL tube amps, but that's about it. 
   
  The LCD 2.2 is definitely more forgiving with a lesser chain than the HD800 is, but the LCD 2 also hits a wall when talking about scaling up. I keep hearing the HD800 get better and better as amp technology pushes further and further.


----------



## olor1n

Quote: 





brac said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  You must have had something seriously hindering the HD800. There is no way the improvement in going from the Bifrost to the M51 is more beneficial and apparent through the LCD-2 than the HD800.


----------



## BRAC

olor1n said:


> You must have had something seriously hindering the HD800.



Like my ears, maybe... :rolleyes:


----------



## Dubstep Girl

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> Kinda have to agree on the HD800 being crap on almost any low/mid-fi gear. Unless we're talking syrupy OTL tube amps, but that's about it.
> 
> The LCD 2.2 is definitely more forgiving with a lesser chain than the HD800 is, but the LCD 2 also hits a wall when talking about scaling up. I keep hearing the HD800 get better and better as amp technology pushes further and further.


 
   
  +1
   
  i feel as if my hd 800 are still not showing me what they're capable of, as if despite the fact that the WA6-SE and WA2 are already decent amps, theres much more to be resolved, with better amps, they still are holding back...


----------



## LugBug1

Theres been a few times when I've thought...Right I'm gonna try the HD800's, sell some gear and just go for it. But then I think my gear is just not up to task for them. Matching is so important whether its low end or high end. I'm soo happy with the K701's on my current set up that it has removed the urge for the HD800's for now.
   
  The LCD2's are imo an exception to the rule in regards to amping and source. They are a high end hp that really does play well with lower end gear, as well as high end ofcourse.


----------



## kothganesh

Quote: 





lugbug1 said:


> Theres been a few times when I've thought...Right I'm gonna try the HD800's, sell some gear and just go for it. But then I think my gear is just not up to task for them. Matching is so important whether its low end or high end. I'm soo happy with the K701's on my current set up that it has removed the urge for the HD800's for now.
> 
> The LCD2's are imo an exception to the rule in regards to amping and source. They are a high end hp that really does play well with lower end gear, as well as high end ofcourse.


 
  Hence, the Bifrost/Asgard combo should do well with the LCD 2.2 ?


----------



## LugBug1

Quote: 





kothganesh said:


> Hence, the Bifrost/Asgard combo should do well with the LCD 2.2 ?


 
  Absolutely. I would look at the Asgard2 though


----------



## kothganesh

Quote: 





lugbug1 said:


> Absolutely. I would look at the Asgard2 though


 
  Thanks. Actually, I have the Asgard 1 (got it one week before Asgard 2 was launched 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





). I am planning to get the A2 anyway.


----------



## BRAC

I agree that the LCD2 does play well with lower end gear, but boy was I in for a surprise when I inserted the M51 into my rig. It literally transformed my LCD2.2! The difference in clarity, detail and soundstaging was remarkable. I gained everything that I thought was missing from the LCD2.2. It really succeeded in making my HD800 expendable. Don't get me wrong, the HD800 also yielded some nice improvements, though mostly it just sounded a little smoother and more refined. To these ears at least, the LCD2.2 is like a whole new beast with the M51. YMMV.

EDIT: Fyi, this was coming from a Bifrost. I also tried a BDA-1 which was a nice upgrade from the Bifrost as well, but the M51 eventually won out with much better balance top to bottom.


----------



## Girls Generation

You make it seem as if the changes were night and day...
  Quote: 





brac said:


> I agree that the LCD2 does play well with lower end gear, but boy was I in for a surprise when I inserted the M51 into my rig. It literally transformed my LCD2.2! The difference in clarity, detail and soundstaging was remarkable. I gained everything that I thought was missing from the LCD2.2. It really succeeded in making my HD800 expendable. Don't get me wrong, the HD800 also yielded some nice improvements, though mostly it just sounded a little smoother and more refined. To these ears at least, the LCD2.2 is like a whole new beast with the M51. YMMV.
> 
> EDIT: Fyi, this was coming from a Bifrost. I also tried a BDA-1 which was a nice upgrade from the Bifrost as well, but the M51 eventually won out with much better balance top to bottom.


----------



## BRAC

girls generation said:


> You make it seem as if the changes were night and day...



Night and day? Maybe not...

I mean, obviously it still sounded like an LCD2. So, if I could draw some sort of parallel here, I'd say kind of similar to going from an LCD2 to an LCD3.


----------



## Maxvla

brac said:


> Night and day? Maybe not...
> 
> I mean, obviously it still sounded like an LCD2. So, if I could draw some sort parallel here, I'd say kind of similar to going from an LCD2 to an LCD3.



And it only cost *more* than actually going from a LCD-2 to a an LCD-3.

LCD-2 $1000
LCD-3 $2000

Bifrost $350-450
M51 $2000


----------



## BRAC

maxvla said:


> And it only cost *more* than actually going from a LCD-2 to a an LCD-3.
> 
> LCD-2 $1000
> LCD-3 $2000
> ...



Are you being serious?

I suppose that's true, although I'm not seeing your point. When I picked up my LCD3 I still had my M51 to pair with it.


----------



## rated1975

+1



brac said:


> I agree that the LCD2 does play well with lower end gear, but boy was I in for a surprise when I inserted the M51 into my rig. It literally transformed my LCD2.2! The difference in clarity, detail and soundstaging was remarkable. .


----------



## zilch0md

What is an "M51"?   Link?
   
  Thanks!
   
  Mike


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





zilch0md said:


> What is an "M51"?   Link?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Mike


 
Link and Link


----------



## zilch0md

Thanks!


----------



## dfarina

I placed an order on the new Burson Soloist SL to go with my hd600's,but got the upgrade bug and sold the hd600's with the intensions of getting the LCD2's.My Soloist SL is on hold right now,but I have to decide in a day or two what to do,here are the options I have given myself (a)keep the Soloist SL (b)get the original Soloist (c)get the HPA V200.Right now I am leaning towards the v200,but if the Soloist SL has enough grunt for the LCD2's I would love to go in that direction and save $400.Don't like what I am hearing about the original Soloists volume clicking noise....I'M SO CONFUSED!!


----------



## Dubstep Girl

shouldn't definitely be enough for the LCD-2, they're not hard to drive, and the SL has like 2 watts, which is still way more than enough for them. sound should be about the same, i don't know anyone that's heard both of them though.


----------



## dfarina

Burson just emailed me back about this very question and they recommend the the original Soloist over the newer SL version for the LCD2's??This is about as clear as MUD to me right now


----------



## Girls Generation

Heard both Soloist and V200. Can't go wrong with either one, though the Soloist was too relaxed sounding for my taste. Piano on the V200 was spectacular though. In the end, the Mjolnir's assertiveness swayed me.


----------



## negura

I owned and thus heard both the V200 and Soloist at length. Both are fantastic choices and the V200 is the warmer and more relaxed out of the two. The Soloist is more neutral (which is smth I learnt to appreciate) and thus sounds a bit brighter without being at all harsh. I really liked both and decided to keep the Soloist as its part of my Conductor lol. 

I find the DAC at least as important though - what are you going to run either of these amps off of?


----------



## BRAC

dfarina said:


> Burson just emailed me back about this very question and they recommend the the original Soloist over the newer SL version for the LCD2's??This is about as clear as MUD to me right now




No volume clicking issue with my Soloist. But, if you are worried about it just stick with the SL.

Fyi, any of the Burson's will drive the LCD2 with ease.


----------



## dfarina

Hey BRAC,that makes sense to me,but here is the exact quote I got from Burson......
" I think the Soloist will bring additional benefit to the LCD2. The LCD2 is not an easy to drive phone and compared to the HD-600, it does need more power. In terms of sensibility, the LCD2 is more in line with the Senn. HD-800."


----------



## BRAC

I certainly don't dispute that claim. 

It really becomes more about what you are willing to spend.

EDIT: Btw, my former HA160 was able to drive both my HD800 and LCD2.2 with good results. Now, my Soloist is obviously better, but you get the idea...


----------



## zilch0md

Quote: 





dfarina said:


> Hey BRAC,that makes sense to me,but here is the exact quote I got from Burson......
> " I think the Soloist will bring additional benefit to the LCD2. The LCD2 is not an easy to drive phone and compared to the HD-600, it does need more power. In terms of sensibility, the LCD2 is more in line with the Senn. HD-800."


 
   
  Surely, they meant to say:
   


> In terms of sensibility sensitivity, the LCD2 is more in line with the Senn. HD-800.


 
   
  If that's what they meant, I disagree.  The LCD-2 is more sensitive than the HD-800 (but it is less sensitive than the HD-600).  Try connecting an LCD-2 to a Sansa Clip+ or an iPod.  Now try the same thing with an HD800. I've never had the opportunity to try this with an HD-800, but I've read many accounts of people using even the iPod Shuttle to drive the LCD-2.  Of course, no one says the LCD-2 sounds its best on 30mW, but I've never heard anyone commenting on an HD-800 sounding "surprisingly good" on 30mW.  
   
  The LCD-2 will, however, reward the user who supplies it with more power. The more power you give it, the better it sounds - up to the maximum permissible 15W per channel.  In my experience with the LCD-2 rev.1, as power is increased, the bass control improves as one would expect, but so does the mid and treble - yielding higher resolution across the spectrum, which improves the imaging and stage, as well.  But the greatest improvement is one of dynamics, giving you more slam or punch with recordings that call for it.  Giving you drum hits that have serious impact and even a more percussive quality  when piano is played loudly (fortissimo).  In short, more power gives the LCD-2 greater detail and dynamics across the spectrum.
   
  Mike


----------



## BRAC

+1. ^^^ That.


----------



## dfarina

Yep...I agree,dat clears up the mud nicely.I figure it makes no sense going 80%,may as well get an amp that can take things to there potential.Leaning towards the V200,thanks for the input.


----------



## BRAC

Quote: 





dfarina said:


> Yep...I agree,dat clears up the mud nicely.I figure it makes no sense going 80%,may as well get an amp that can take things to there potential.Leaning towards the V200,thanks for the input.


 

 Very nice. From what I've heard the V200 is a great amp and pairs really well with the LCD2.
   
  I wish that I had gone straight to the Soloist and skipped over the HA160, it would have saved me a few bucks.


----------



## negura

Quote: 





dfarina said:


> Yep...I agree,dat clears up the mud nicely.I figure it makes no sense going 80%,may as well get an amp that can take things to there potential.Leaning towards the V200,thanks for the input.


 
   
  Agree with that. Many will vouch that going through intermediary steps is actually costing more. The other way of looking at buying the V200 OR Soloist (OR similar tier amp) is to get whatever you can get a better deal for.


----------



## dfarina

Quote: 





brac said:


> Very nice. From what I've heard the V200 is a great amp and pairs really well with the LCD2.
> 
> I wish that I had gone straight to the Soloist and skipped over the HA160, it would have saved me a few bucks.


 
  Yea...LOL, I lost a few bucks on the HA160 as well,probably not as much as yourself(hee hee)Anyway,I ordered the V200 a few min ago,I'm at inner peace right now thinking the combo(V200,LCD2 r.2) is going to fit my taste.I like a nice warm sound with no piercing highs,but good impact,think I am on the right track.


----------



## Girls Generation

I think you mean less sensitive than the HD800, but more sensitive than the HD600??? HD800 is completely utter crap with low end gear from my prolonged experience, and even so with hifi gear that doesn't pair well. I was also under the impression that the LCD2 does not scale as much and reaches a limit as I and many others have observed.
  Quote: 





zilch0md said:


> Surely, they meant to say:
> 
> 
> If that's what they meant, I disagree.  The LCD-2 is more sensitive than the HD-800 (but it is less sensitive than the HD-600).  Try connecting an LCD-2 to a Sansa Clip+ or an iPod.  Now try the same thing with an HD800. I've never had the opportunity to try this with an HD-800, but I've read many accounts of people using even the iPod Shuttle to drive the LCD-2.  Of course, no one says the LCD-2 sounds its best on 30mW, but I've never heard anyone commenting on an HD-800 sounding "surprisingly good" on 30mW.
> ...


----------



## BRAC

Quote: 





girls generation said:


> I was also under the impression that the LCD2 does not scale as much and reaches a limit as I and many others have observed.


 
  How much does one have to spend to reach the limit?


----------



## negura

Quote: 





girls generation said:


> I think you mean less sensitive than the HD800, but more sensitive than the HD600??? HD800 is completely utter crap with low end gear from my prolonged experience, and even so with hifi gear that doesn't pair well. I was also under the impression that the LCD2 does not scale as much and reaches a limit as I and many others have observed.


 
   
  I am not sure what the HD800 have to do here... If people are trying to say the HD800s sound bad on budget gear I respect that. But irregardless whether they scale less or more or sound crap or better with various gear, this should be about the LCD-2s...
   
  What I've previously said and will say again is that coming gradually from budget yet very good value downstream to a performant one, the sound quality improvement is instantly noticeable with the LCD-2s. Even someone like my girlfriend who isn't an audiophile, has not made one mistake during A/B comparing something like Soloist/V200 with lower end gear. To my surprise in 9/10 she was actually able to tell V200 and Soloist correctly apart with the LCD-2s, but that's something else. 
   
   



brac said:


> How much does one have to spend to reach the limit?


 
   
  That's a really good question, my buck stopped at V200/Soloist, but I am sure others have gone even higher up. Where it seems to get more blurry is that it's not always a rule that something expensive will have the expected return in performance, as well as some less expensive devices will grant a big bang for the buck.


----------



## dfarina

Quote: 





negura said:


> I am not sure what the HD800 have to do here... If people are trying to say the HD800s sound bad on budget gear I respect that. But irregardless whether they scale less or more or sound crap or better with various gear, this should be about the LCD-2s...
> 
> What I've previously said and will say again is that coming gradually from budget yet very good value downstream to a performant one, the sound quality improvement is instantly noticeable with the LCD-2s. Even someone like my girlfriend who isn't an audiophile, has not made one mistake during A/B comparing something like Soloist/V200 with lower end gear. To my surprise in 9/10 she was actually able to tell V200 and Soloist correctly apart with the LCD-2s, but that's something else.


 
  I have to ask,which do you prefer,the Soloist or V200 with the LCD2


----------



## Argo Duck

The lcd2 has a flat impedance curve, I.e. it's a purely resistive load. Whereas, as I understand it, dynamic headphones tend to have complex impedance curves. That is, they present weird loads to their amps. Hence the question of synergy and better/worse amps for a given hp (scaling) becomes a large one with dynamics.

Now since dynamic phones have been dominant, most of the amp know-how has presumably grown to support these loads. Being a different beast, the same rules don't apply with the LCD phones. Meaning the marvelous (and expensive) amp that does wonders for a difficult dynamic may do little or nothing - compared to some cheaper amp - for the LCD.

This may well lead to the 'finding' LCD phones "don't scale". This might be a mistake. As different rules apply, different amps are needed (e.g. higher current such as violectric gear). The usual (approximate) price-performance relationship fails.

Which I guess Is why speaker amps, old integrated amps and newer stuff like the lyr and mjolnir have been successful.

I just wouldn't be sure we have *necessarily* seen the orthodynamic amp technology fully mature yet. The counter view is these really are (with the notable exception of the he-6) easy to drive and provided there's enough current capability (with most amps this means 'power') just about anything will do!

IDK. Just putting it out there...


----------



## BRAC

negura, I think it's a fair question and could be beneficial to many LCD2 newcomers. I have seen that very claim posted on this forum countless times and by many different Head Fi'ers. Like you, I stopped at the Soloist, along with my M51, and hadn't yet reached said ceiling, at least not that I was aware of anyway.
   
  At the very least, this info could have saved me some money in upgrades...


----------



## Girls Generation

If I had to put a finger on it, LCD2's scalability would stop at the $1000-1500 mark both amp and DAC.
   
  Anyone with a budget spending a lot on the amp should consider balancing their budget out with a DAC for best price/performance since in the end, the extra $ towards a better amp won't yield a huge difference.


----------



## KingStyles

The lcd2 do tend to scale well as you go up in dacs/amps. The difference is they sound decent with lower end dacs/amps meaning there is a smaller gap between good and great seeming like they dont scale as well.


----------



## BRAC

Quote: 





girls generation said:


> If I had to put a finger on it, LCD2's scalability would stop at the $1000-1500 mark both amp and DAC.
> 
> Anyone with a budget spending a lot on the amp should consider balancing their budget out with a DAC for best price/performance since in the end, the extra $ towards a better amp won't yield a huge difference.


 
  Interesting... I will say that my DAC upgrade yielded the bigger increase in performance. Then again, my new DAC was four times the cost of the one it replaced. My amp upgrade was less than double, so there is that...
  Quote: 





kingstyles said:


> The lcd2 do tend to scale well as you go up in dacs/amps. The difference is they sound decent with lower end dacs/amps meaning there is a smaller gap between good and great seeming like they dont scale as well.


 
  That sounds feasible... But, in my case I thought the increase in performance was quite substantial. Of coarse, others may not agree with me.


----------



## MorbidToaster

Honestly the best I heard the LCD 2 was at 3k+. It's not that they don't scale up with better gear, it's that they don't scale _as much_ as the HD800. 
   
  Basically, it's not about a complete stop at scaling, it's about hitting the wall of _diminishing returns_ faster than the HD800.


----------



## Girls Generation

This is what I'm trying to imply, though I hadn't worded my thoughts correctly.   Thanks for summarizing that nicely.
  Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> Honestly the best I heard the LCD 2 was at 3k+. It's not that they don't scale up with better gear, it's that they don't scale _as much_ as the HD800.
> 
> Basically, it's not about a complete stop at scaling, it's about hitting the wall of _diminishing returns_ faster than the HD800.


----------



## R-Audiohead

Quote: 





argo duck said:


> The lcd2 has a flat impedance curve, I.e. it's a purely resistive load. Whereas, as I understand it, dynamic headphones tend to have complex impedance curves. That is, they present weird loads to their amps. Hence the question of synergy and better/worse amps for a given hp (scaling) becomes a large one with dynamics.
> 
> Now since dynamic phones have been dominant, most of the amp know-how has presumably grown to support these loads. Being a different beast, the same rules don't apply with the LCD phones. Meaning the marvelous (and expensive) amp that does wonders for a difficult dynamic may do little or nothing - compared to some cheaper amp - for the LCD.
> 
> ...


 

 Very interesting points here.
   
  Kudos


----------



## negura

Quote: 





dfarina said:


> I have to ask,which do you prefer,the Soloist or V200 with the LCD2


 
   
  I have found them on par and if I had unlimited funds, I would have kept them both. Btw. I've already posted my impressions in the previous pages and/or in the other big thread about the LCD-2s.  Technically the Soloist is probably a bit better and the V200 compensates in euphony/musicality. However my decision was mainly driven by the fact the the Soloist is part of my Burson Conductor so that was an easy choice.
   
  As I've previously said, I find the DAC at least as important as the AMP and it's worthwhile budgeting accordingly.


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> Honestly the best I heard the LCD 2 was at 3k+. It's not that they don't scale up with better gear, it's that they don't scale _as much_ as the HD800.
> 
> Basically, it's not about a complete stop at scaling, it's about hitting the wall of _diminishing returns_ faster than the HD800.


 
  Having transducers that are so hard to drive can also be inferred as a "poorer" design no? 

 Orthos by nature have a flat impedance vs. frequency response (HE-6s are the same as the LCD-2/3s in this regard), so should we penalize them for that, when that's their nature? I think I can make an argument that designing a headphone transducer that sounds great without an UBER expensive amp that can handle the "swings" of the HD800s is a good thing? I realize that this is a taboo around here, but I've been thinking about it recently. 
   
   

  FWIW, I love my HD800s and find that they are harder to get right from an amping perspective than my LCD-3s (which in turn are a bit harder to get right compared to the LCD-2s). But I think its more of a ring-dynamic transducer vs. ortho driver thing. Both properly powered are truly excellent (with my preference being for the LCD-3).


----------



## MorbidToaster

Not really penalizing them, just stating an observation. They're all good headphones, but your money goes further with the HD800s when you start to consider 'summit-fi' spending.


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> Not really penalizing them, just stating an observation. They're all good headphones, but your money goes further with the HD800s when you start to consider 'summit-fi' spending.


 
   
  Just some musings I've been having. Nothing really directed at you, but something you mentioned kinda got me thinking.


----------



## burgunder

Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> Having transducers that are so hard to drive can also be inferred as a "poorer" design no?
> 
> Orthos by nature have a flat impedance vs. frequency response (HE-6s are the same as the LCD-2/3s in this regard), so should we penalize them for that, when that's their nature? I think I can make an argument that designing a headphone transducer that sounds great without an UBER expensive amp that can handle the "swings" of the HD800s is a good thing? I realize that this is a taboo around here, but I've been thinking about it recently.


 
   
  I only have a pair off modded Fostex T50rp(which I guess are not as resolving as the LCD-3) but I have been testing various amps lately and I have come to the conclusion that the orthos don't change much with different amping, which I find great!


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> Not really penalizing them, just stating an observation. They're all good headphones, *but your money goes further with the HD800s when you start to consider 'summit-fi' spending.*


 
   
   
  I don't quite understand this.  "Not me"  - Others in this thread seem to be able to get as much - if not more out of the LCD-2.2 when compared to the HD800 regardless of amp/dac used.   A price can't be put on personal enjoyment and preference.  
   
  I may be off here though..


----------



## MorbidToaster

Quote: 





preproman said:


> I don't quite understand this.  "Not me"  - Others in this thread seem to be able to get as much - if not more out of the LCD-2.2 when compared to the HD800 regardless of amp/dac used.   A price can't be put on personal enjoyment and preference.
> 
> I may be off here though..


 
  If you're talking relative enjoyment that's one thing (and totally subjective) but you'll never convince me the LCD 2 yields more improvement than the HD800 does when paired with top tier source and amplification.
   
  'Enjoyment' was never what I was talking about.


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> If you're talking relative enjoyment that's one thing (and totally subjective) but you'll never convince me the LCD 2 yields more improvement than the HD800 does when paired with top tier source and amplification.
> 
> 'Enjoyment' was never what I was talking about.


 
   
  So if not subjective.  What's your objective point of reference that the HD800 yields more improvement over the LCD-2.2?


----------



## BRAC

Quote: 





preproman said:


> So if not subjective.  What's your objective point of reference that the HD800 yields more improvement over the LCD-2.2?


 

 +1. Exactly!
   
  People talk about it like it's absolute undeniable fact, sorry, but in my experience that was simply not the case.


----------



## MorbidToaster

I'd say MH's post on the last page about the HD800s wonky curve sums it up pretty nicely.
   
  Edit: So basically one of the HD800s imperfections is the reason. I'd also say it's easier to perceive change in the HD800 due to it's higher overall detail. I guess some may call that subjective but I'm not sure anyone could claim the LCD 2 is more detailed than the HD800.
  Quote: 





brac said:


> +1. Exactly!
> 
> People talk about it like it's absolute undeniable fact, sorry, but in my experience that was simply not the case.


----------



## BRAC

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> I'd say MH's post on the last page about the HD800s wonky curve sums it up pretty nicely.
> 
> Edit: So basically one of the HD800s imperfections is the reason. I'd also say it's easier to perceive change in the HD800 due to it's higher overall detail. I guess some may call that subjective but I'm not sure anyone could claim the LCD 2 is more detailed than the HD800.


 

 Here is my take - based on my own personal experience with these 2 great headphones. And, it wasn't too difficult to come to these conclusions since I was comparing them both on the same rig at the same time.
   
  Yes, the HD800 did have significantly more detail than the LCD2.2 on my HA160/Bifrost rig, but with the Soloist/M51 that gap closed considerably. However, I would have still given a slight edge in detail to the HD800 after the upgrades. My point in this discussion has always been about the ability of the LCD2 to scale up, and that it's not as cut and dry as some would have you believe. To automatically assume that the HD800 will always scale higher with upgrades is nothing more than an opinion or an assumption. Could this outcome change with different components? Maybe, I don't know. If the HD800 is as picky as people say, then sure... 
   
  That said, I will throw this out there as food for thought.....In my rig, my LCD3 has all the detail of the HD800, but then easily outclasses it in every other category, except for maybe soundstaging. That's my opinion. YMMV.


----------



## MorbidToaster

I've owned both in world class rigs at the same time (LF, LG [Amps] PWD2 + PWT, 851C [Sources]) and the HD800 has yielded more significant differences as I went up the chain than the LCD 2.2 did. This part is subjective, but the reason why (objectively) makes sense.
   
  Again, not saying the LCD 2.2 doesn't scale up, but I feel it hits the diminishing returns wall much sooner than the HD800 when it comes to perceived improvement in sound. 
   
  As for the LCD 3...Definitely not my cup of tea. My ears got over the 'wonder' of orthos quickly after getting the HD800. They're just not for me anymore I guess. I think the HE500 is the only ortho I'd consider owning again right now.
   
  Quote: 





brac said:


> Here is my take - based on my own personal experience with these 2 great headphones. And, it wasn't too difficult to come to these conclusions since I was comparing them both on the same rig at the same time.
> 
> Yes, the HD800 did have significantly more detail than the LCD2.2 on my HA160/Bifrost rig, but with the Soloist/M51 that gap closed considerably. However, I would have still given a slight edge in detail to the HD800 after the upgrades. My point in this discussion has always been about the ability of the LCD2 to scale up, and that it's not as cut and dry as some would have you believe. To automatically assume that the HD800 will always scale higher with upgrades is nothing more than an opinion or an assumption. Could this outcome change with different components? Maybe, I don't know. If the HD800 is as picky as people say, then sure...
> 
> That said, I will throw this out there as food for thought.....In my rig, my LCD3 has all the detail of the HD800, but then easily outclasses it in every other category, except for maybe soundstaging. That's my opinion. YMMV.


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





brac said:


> ..*.In my rig, my LCD3 has all the detail of the HD800, but then easily outclasses it in every other category, except for maybe soundstaging. That's my opinion. YMMV. *


 
   
   
  I agree with this.  But also the HD800 has an edge in "instrument separation" (air and space around the instrument) as well.  IMO


----------



## BRAC

Quote: 





preproman said:


> I agree with this.  But also the HD800 has an edge in "instrument separation" (air and space around the instrument) as well.  IMO


 

 I agree.
   
  More of an "in general" statement. I would consider "instrument separation" as part of soundstaging anyway.


----------



## Girls Generation

Instrument separation as in accuracy in placement and imaging, would probably be a separate entity than sound staging imo.
  Quote: 





brac said:


> I agree.
> 
> More of an "in general" statement. I would consider "instrument separation" as part of soundstaging anyway.


----------



## BRAC

Quote: 





girls generation said:


> Instrument separation as in accuracy in placement and imaging, would probably be a separate entity than sound staging imo.


 

 Picky much? Like I said, "in general".
   
  Geeeez.....Tough crowd!


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





girls generation said:


> Instrument separation as in accuracy in placement and imaging, would probably be a separate entity than sound staging imo.


 
   
  Quote: 





brac said:


> Picky much? Like I said, "in general".
> 
> Geeeez.....Tough crowd!





   
   
  O yeah buddy - tough crowd indeed.  I agree with GG.  Left / Right opposed to 3D or stereo placement would be considered sound stage.  Being able to pick out what instrument is what easily would be instrument separation.
   
  Of course IMO..
   
  Just picking with you


----------



## BRAC

Quote: 





preproman said:


> O yeah buddy - tough crowd indeed.  I agree with GG.  Left / Right opposed to 3D or stereo placement would be considered sound stage.  Being able to pick out what instrument is what easily would be instrument separation.
> 
> Of course IMO..
> 
> Just picking with you


 

 Yes.....tough considering that I was agreeing with you.


----------



## oqvist

Quote: 





girls generation said:


> Instrument separation as in accuracy in placement and imaging, would probably be a separate entity than sound staging imo.


 
  If that isn´t soundstage then what is soundstage. there is nothing left? Soundstaging for me is a combination of those terms.


----------



## Girls Generation

Well, to me, I consider soundstage as a means of quantifying the largeness of the perception of sound with measurement terms such as width, height, and depth. Then there are different aspects of the sound, instrument placement accuracy and separation, which describes the peculiarities of imaging that the headphones render. Again, I'm not saying this is universal of any sort but just opining.
  Quote: 





oqvist said:


> If that isn´t soundstage then what is soundstage. there is nothing left? Soundstaging for me is a combination of those terms.


----------



## Maxvla

So how about them amplifiers...


----------



## BRAC

Quote: 





maxvla said:


> So how about them amplifiers...


 

 Which ones? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
   
  But seriously, good point! We did get a little off track there...


----------



## Chris_Himself

maxvla said:


> So how about them amplifiers...




You mean this $1500 stack of room heaters that makes my headphones make noise?


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> Having transducers that are so hard to drive can also be inferred as a "poorer" design no?
> 
> Orthos by nature have a flat impedance vs. frequency response (HE-6s are the same as the LCD-2/3s in this regard), so should we penalize them for that, when that's their nature? I think I can make an argument that designing a headphone transducer that sounds great without an UBER expensive amp that can handle the "swings" of the HD800s is a good thing? I realize that this is a taboo around here, but I've been thinking about it recently.


 
  I would argue that many dynamic louspeakers have the impedance that they have because that's just the nature of that kind of beast. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  It's just reality, as headphone owners, we need to get an amp that can drive the headphone impedance.
   
  Douglas Self has said that speaker designers should work on building a good sounding loudspeaker, not an easy to drive loudspeaker.
  The amplifier designers (like Douglas Self) will then design an amplifier to drive that loudspeaker.
  Of course, this all assumes the speaker designers will design a loudspekaer with a reasonable load, i.e. not like some of the early MartinLogans which had the impedance of a nail.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  Cheers, C


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





chris j said:


> I would argue that many dynamic louspeakers have the impedance that they have because that's just the nature of that kind of beast.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  There's a balance I think. Like you said, it "assumes speaker designers will design a loudspeaker with a reasonable load". But what defines the word reasonable?


----------



## myap2328

Is it possible to tell if an amp can power the lcd2 just by looking at its voltage? I am deciding whether or not to go all out on the LCD 2 or get the cheap-skate lcd2, the hd650. One of my worries are the budget I have left for my amp after buying the lcd2 is not enough to buy a good amp.


----------



## BRAC

Quote: 





myap2328 said:


> Is it possible to tell if an amp can power the lcd2 just by looking at its voltage? I am deciding whether or not to go all out on the LCD 2 or get the cheap-skate lcd2, the hd650. One of my worries are the budget I have left for my amp after buying the lcd2 is not enough to buy a good amp.


 

 Take the better headphone every time, imho.
   
  Headphone>source>amp.
   
  Just my $0.02.....


----------



## Landmantx

The true answer would be to shop around and perfectly mate the best value combo, but unfortunately, there is no place in the world that allows you to go demo all this gear in one quiet listening room so you kind of have to weigh the opinions of others who also have not heard all variations available. Makes it tough. That is where I am at ATM. 

I rather enjoyed the LCD3, but to say that an amp won't make a difference on a headphone that can handle 15 watts is a stretch too. It would be nice if I could get the LCD3 for $1,500 so I could pair it with my $1,500 Decware Zen Taboo MK3 and make the $3000 budget, but I also need a DAC. I started with the Amp first and that isn't normal, but I fell in love with the Decware gear! Whatever you do at that level you will love it. Also, keep in mind that the LCDs are not super comfortable for long sessions if that is a consideration. That is what has me taking pause for now. I really enjoyed the LCD3, but they are not nearly as comfortable as some of the other high end cans. I haven't been able to demo the LCD2.2 yet which is what I was originally set upon buying. The comfort thing has me back in my underground lair working up a new diabolical master plan for world sound domination


----------



## Girls Generation

True but you still have to find a right balance and compromise if within a limited budget. i.e) $2000 LCD3 isn't a smart choice when you can have 93% of the same sound with half the price.
  Quote: 





brac said:


> Take the better headphone every time, imho.
> 
> Headphone>source>amp.
> 
> Just my $0.02.....


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





girls generation said:


> True but you still have to find a right balance and compromise if within a limited budget. i.e) $2000 LCD3 isn't a smart choice when you can have 93% of the same sound with half the price.


 
  Blah. LCD-3 brings in over x2 the enjoyment of LCD-2.
   
  IMO, spend a few more $ and get the HD800. The LCD-2 is good, but not special. 
   
   
  I also love your 93% figure. Haha.


----------



## Landmantx

If the HD800 looked as good as an LCD2 in rosewood, I would have already made the decision. Unfortunately, I think it looks like a cheap plastic headphone. Just my opinion. With my tube settup I am assembling, it would take the edge off the HD800 sound. I really didn't enjoy the HD800 out of a very expensive SS Fostex amp/dac as much. The pairing really does make a huge difference, IMO. In fact I was amazed at how much difference synergy can create. Unfortunately, no where to go to play around with a bunch of equipment except an occasional head-fi meet. This board really is vital to getting things figured out.


----------



## LugBug1

Quote: 





myap2328 said:


> Is it possible to tell if an amp can power the lcd2 just by looking at its voltage? I am deciding whether or not to go all out on the LCD 2 or get the cheap-skate lcd2, the hd650. One of my worries are the budget I have left for my amp after buying the lcd2 is not enough to buy a good amp.


 
  The 650's are a lot more amp picky than the LCD2's. LCD2's will play well with most quality amps, but the 650's need loads of voltage.
   
  Also depends on what music you listen too. If you want a great alrounder then the 650's. If you want a more intimate dark sound with brilliant resolution then LCD's.


----------



## Girls Generation

Not unless you're using a Fiio with the 3.
  Quote: 





paradoxper said:


> Blah. LCD-3 brings in over x2 the enjoyment of LCD-2.
> 
> IMO, spend a few more $ and get the HD800. The LCD-2 is good, but not special.
> 
> ...


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





paradoxper said:


> Blah. LCD-3 brings in over x2 the enjoyment of LCD-2.
> 
> IMO, spend a few more $ and get the HD800. The LCD-2 is good, but not special.
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  +1  yeah.  93% of the LCD-3?  Not in my book.  How does one come up with a % anyway?


----------



## Kendoji

Ha, I believe Tyll said the LCD-3 was about 20% better than the LCD-2.


----------



## BRAC

Quote: 





girls generation said:


> True but you still have to find a right balance and compromise if within a limited budget. i.e) $2000 LCD3 isn't a smart choice when you can have 93% of the same sound with half the price.


 
  Budget is always a consideration, that really goes without saying.
   
  In more simple terms - start with the headphone, then consider your source, then finally the amp. You could potentially swap the order on source and amp, but the rig should always be built around the headphone first, imo.
  Quote: 





kendoji said:


> Ha, I believe Tyll said the LCD-3 was about 20% better than the LCD-2.


 
  I would probably agree with that number from a purely technical standpoint, however, my level of "satisfaction and enjoyment" has easily doubled.


----------



## Girls Generation

Roughly picking a number?
   
  Quote: 





preproman said:


> +1  yeah.  93% of the LCD-3?  Not in my book.  How does one come up with a % anyway?


----------



## myap2328

Well, the second question would be, this is my actual first entry into the audiophile world. I can get the LCD-2 but my family won't be happy, but they would still allow me to do so. They are very much fine if I purchase the hd650. Considering the fact that I have to spend a sum of money again to buy an amp/dac for the lcd2, u guys think I should start slow or go-for-it!

EDIT: Seems like an inappropriate question but I am asking this because I am afraid an appropriate amp would cost me quite a bit.


----------



## jsgraha

Imho, a good lcd2 is about 80% of a good lcd3. I've listened to 5 lcd2 and 2 lcd3 belong to various friends and a local shop, and there's variation, especially with lcd2 (either rev1 or rev2).


----------



## Girls Generation

Asgard 2, Bifrost, HE500. gogogo
  Quote: 





myap2328 said:


> Well, the second question would be, this is my actual first entry into the audiophile world. I can get the LCD-2 but my family won't be happy, but they would still allow me to do so. They are very much fine if I purchase the hd650. Considering the fact that I have to spend a sum of money again to buy an amp/dac for the lcd2, u guys think I should start slow or go-for-it!
> 
> EDIT: Seems like an inappropriate question but I am asking this because I am afraid an appropriate amp would cost me quite a bit.


----------



## myap2328

girls generation said:


> Asgard 2, Bifrost, HE500. gogogo




Hifiman isn't available in my country and if I'm no wrong the he500 is EVEN harder to drive, isn't it?


----------



## Girls Generation

Irrelevant in this case.
  Quote: 





myap2328 said:


> if I'm no wrong the he500 is EVEN harder to drive, isn't it?


----------



## varyV

I think I'm over Project Sunrise for now...was waiting for their upcoming "Project Ember" amp for a while but it kept on getting delayed and I'm thinking about jumping ship.

Anyways, has anyone heard both the Burson Soloist and the WA7 to help me make an educated choice? I'm between the two for a decision...the source for the Burson being a Dacport LX (at least for now), while the WA7 has an inbuilt DAC?


----------



## adydula

myap2328...
   
  I have the LCD2's and have gone thru sevearl amps...
   
  the one I have kept is the o2 amp....u can get for $99.....
   
  it drives the LCD2's with authority and it doesnt break the bank....
   
  Alex


----------



## mentt

Another good cheap AMP/DAC for LCD2 is Fubar 4.


----------



## Girls Generation

I found O2 lacking with LCD2.


----------



## AManAnd88Keys

Quote: 





adydula said:


> myap2328...
> 
> I have the LCD2's and have gone thru sevearl amps...
> 
> ...


 
  Somehow I have been waiting for this. Must be some kind of head-fi conditioning


----------



## adydula

hey...its your money....spend, spend, spend...and be happy.....lol...
   
  The O2 isn't lacking sonically......
   
  But that's IMHO ....
   
  Alex


----------



## Girls Generation

O2 was lacking a lot. Sounded... small. Not much attack, nor good imaging and SS, etc... It's good for the money but it doesn't change the fact that it was lacking.


----------



## bareyb

nteresting tidbit... Just found out today that Audeze is not pronounced "Ah-Deez" but like the word "Odyssey". Learn something new every day... 





   
  You're welcome...


----------



## Dubstep Girl

Quote: 





bareyb said:


> Interesting tidbit... Just found out today that Audeze is not pronounced "Ah-Deez" but like the word "Odyssey". Learn something new every day...


----------



## bareyb

Quote: 





dubstep girl said:


>


 
  So did you already know, or did I just rock your world?


----------



## Dubstep Girl

i already knew, from hearing people pronounce them on videos and such.
   
  my old roommate, when i bought my own pair of LCD-2, he saw the box arrive and hes like "OMG! its Audeze LCD-2!@#!@#" he was just joking since he doesn't know much about my headphones nor ever heard of them. but i was surprised when i heard that he pronounced audeze perfectly without knowing about them or anything.
   
  i think most people would say "ah-deez" as well.


----------



## benk97

I'm on a shoestring budget right now in terms of driving the LCD2's. My budget is 200-300 max unfortunately I can't budge on that. Any recommendations on an Amp and DAC combo? I was looking at the Modi-Magni and the O2-ODAC but haven't the slightest clue as to which is better. Perhaps I should get the Project Sunrise and put the DAC on hold but I don't think thats ideal.


----------



## Dubstep Girl

definitely keep the DAC in the setup, especially for getting most bang for the buck at such a low budget.


----------



## Girls Generation

Reports say O2/ODAC is _ever so slightly_ better. I'd go with Schiit because it looks nice though. And it's cheaper.
  Quote: 





benk97 said:


> I'm on a shoestring budget right now in terms of driving the LCD2's. My budget is 200-300 max unfortunately I can't budge on that. Any recommendations on an Amp and DAC combo? I was looking at the Modi-Magni and the O2-ODAC but haven't the slightest clue as to which is better. Perhaps I should get the Project Sunrise and put the DAC on hold but I don't think thats ideal.


----------



## Maxvla

How is the Leckerton with LCD-2?


----------



## LugBug1

Quote: 





benk97 said:


> I'm on a shoestring budget right now in terms of driving the LCD2's. My budget is 200-300 max unfortunately I can't budge on that. Any recommendations on an Amp and DAC combo? I was looking at the Modi-Magni and the O2-ODAC but haven't the slightest clue as to which is better. Perhaps I should get the Project Sunrise and put the DAC on hold but I don't think thats ideal.


 
  Haven't heard the O2, but the Magni is a good match. Its set at high gain though, so doesn't give you much control of the volume. Sounds nice, clean and fast


----------



## adydula

I dont know about the O2...here its a bit lacking???
   
  just sayin..
   
  Alex


----------



## Chris_Himself

Quote: 





lugbug1 said:


> Haven't heard the O2, but the Magni is a good match. Its set at high gain though, so doesn't give you much control of the volume. Sounds nice, clean and fast


 
   
  Once you move up the train, the Magni quickly gets overshadowed by it's bigger brothers. Asgard 2 should be pretty impressive, it already looks great on paper. The difference between Gungnir and Bifrost is quite audible and most DAC's have been a waste of money or a marginal upgrade in my experience after a certain point. I think smart shopping accounts for the hobby, not just how much money you spent. Thats why I do not like LCD-3 at all, I feel the difference is less than 10% between LCD-2 and 3 having spent an hour with one to myself. HD800 is the sonic successor to LCD-2 to me. If you make a hobby of buying amps (incredibly boring hobby lol), the LCD-2 will not bring you much joy.
   
  Going from HDP to Lyr to NFB-15.1 to Mjolnir hasn't really net me a huge crazy butt ton amount of improvement. Before you slap me with the diminishing returns BS, keep in mind that even if it's a worse headphone objectively, like K701, HD650, or T1 which I've tried, those actually end up scaling way better than LCD-2. Perhaps that is a testament to the LCD-2's efficiency, but something is telling me that the recessed treble signature and midrange bloat somewhat neuters it's absolute transparency.
   
  Regardless I think Schit pretty much dominates the LCD-2 amp-space right now. I feel somewhat sad as I've always been an RSA fanboy but the Schiit pricepoints for what I get are just too good and it's not like I'm made of money LOL. I mean for the price of an HR-2 I'm getting a fully balanced amp with a brushed aluminum case and two choices of outputs. (4-pin neutrik is way easier to deal with than dual 3-pins)


----------



## LugBug1

Quote: 





chris_himself said:


> Once you move up the train, the Magni quickly gets overshadowed by it's bigger brothers. Asgard 2 should be pretty impressive, it already looks great on paper. The difference between Gungnir and Bifrost is quite audible and most DAC's have been a waste of money or a marginal upgrade in my experience after a certain point. I think smart shopping accounts for the hobby, not just how much money you spent. Thats why I do not like LCD-3 at all, I feel the difference is less than 10% between LCD-2 and 3 having spent an hour with one to myself. HD800 is the sonic successor to LCD-2 to me. If you make a hobby of buying amps (incredibly boring hobby lol), the LCD-2 will not bring you much joy.
> 
> Going from HDP to Lyr to NFB-15.1 to Mjolnir hasn't really net me a huge crazy butt ton amount of improvement. Before you slap me with the diminishing returns BS, keep in mind that even if it's a worse headphone objectively, like K701, HD650, or T1 which I've tried, those actually end up scaling way better than LCD-2. Perhaps that is a testament to the LCD-2's efficiency, but something is telling me that the recessed treble signature and midrange bloat somewhat neuters it's absolute transparency.
> 
> Regardless I think Schit pretty much dominates the LCD-2 amp-space right now. I feel somewhat sad as I've always been an RSA fanboy but the Schiit pricepoints for what I get are just too good and it's not like I'm made of money LOL. I mean for the price of an HR-2 I'm getting a fully balanced amp with a brushed aluminum case and two choices of outputs. (4-pin neutrik is way easier to deal with than dual 3-pins)


 
  Good post.
   
  Yeah I've tried lots of amps and dacs (none high end), and you are right regarding dacs making less of an improvment once you get to a certain stage. I think the synergy with amps is more important normally but defo less so with the LCD2's. Power is the key with these. My Audio gd is still the best I've heard with the LCD2's, or any headphone for that matter.


----------



## Chris_Himself

Quote: 





lugbug1 said:


> Good post.
> 
> Yeah I've tried lots of amps and dacs (none high end), and you are right regarding dacs making less of an improvment once you get to a certain stage. I think the synergy with amps is more important normally but defo less so with the LCD2's. Power is the key with these. My Audio gd is still the best I've heard with the LCD2's, or any headphone for that matter.


 
   
  Yeah a lot of people will project what they work, but if anybody asks me what amps I want for the LCD-2, the best answer I could come up with is in the form of a list, not so much one particular thing because if amps are intended to deliver power with the least amount of interference, any "tonality" is just a lower signal to noise ratio IMO. I'd rather hear more of my music than any sort of bloat. Thats why I am a large fan of companies who are as transparent about their amp builds as possible. AudioGD, Ray Samuels, Schiit, etc. I don't buy into these boutique brands who hide everything under the case.
   
  Not that I know enough circuit engineering to do any damage if I were to build my own amp, but it's nice to compare amps spec to spec instead of a lot of buzzwords.
   
  You can say I have it out for the amp/source market haha. I just like headphones.


----------



## BRAC

chris_himself said:


> Once you move up the train, the Magni quickly gets overshadowed by it's bigger brothers. Asgard 2 should be pretty impressive, it already looks great on paper. The difference between Gungnir and Bifrost is quite audible and most DAC's have been a waste of money or a marginal upgrade in my experience after a certain point. I think smart shopping accounts for the hobby, not just how much money you spent. Thats why I do not like LCD-3 at all, I feel the difference is less than 10% between LCD-2 and 3 having spent an hour with one to myself. HD800 is the sonic successor to LCD-2 to me. If you make a hobby of buying amps (incredibly boring hobby lol), the LCD-2 will not bring you much joy.
> 
> Going from HDP to Lyr to NFB-15.1 to Mjolnir hasn't really net me a huge crazy butt ton amount of improvement. Before you slap me with the diminishing returns BS, keep in mind that even if it's a worse headphone objectively, like K701, HD650, or T1 which I've tried, those actually end up scaling way better than LCD-2. Perhaps that is a testament to the LCD-2's efficiency, but something is telling me that the recessed treble signature and midrange bloat somewhat neuters it's absolute transparency.
> 
> Regardless I think Schit pretty much dominates the LCD-2 amp-space right now. I feel somewhat sad as I've always been an RSA fanboy but the Schiit pricepoints for what I get are just too good and it's not like I'm made of money LOL. I mean for the price of an HR-2 I'm getting a fully balanced amp with a brushed aluminum case and two choices of outputs. (4-pin neutrik is way easier to deal with than dual 3-pins)



Wow.....I disagree on almost all of the above regarding the LCD2 & LCD3.

Just goes to show how subjective all of this really is. On the bright side, you can save a ton of money in upgrades.


----------



## Chris_Himself

Quote: 





brac said:


> Wow.....I disagree on almost all of the above regarding the LCD2 & LCD3.
> 
> Just goes to show how subjective all of this really is. On the bright side, you can save a ton of money in upgrades.


 
   
  What rig are you running?


----------



## benk97

Would an Asgard 2 paired with the Modi be a decent combo or would the modi bottle neck the rig?


----------



## Chris_Himself

Quote: 





benk97 said:


> Would an Asgard 2 paired with the Modi be a decent combo or would the modi bottle neck the rig?


 
   
  It would work just fine IMO. The Bifrost is probably one of the last single-ended DAC's you'd need to buy along with some others I have in mind.


----------



## benk97

Yea I want the bi frost but the problem with that is that its out of my price range. Most of my money is being allocated towards the LCD2's themselves and I only have 200-300 bucks left to pick up a Amp/DAC.


----------



## adydula

O2 amp and ODAC for $285......
   
http://www.jdslabs.com/item.php?fetchitem=48
   
  But beware its totally transparent, adds no coloration.....garbage in ...garbage out....
   
  Will run off of AC or "Pure DC".... thats batteries.
   
  And its has specs that are world class....and have been verified.
   

 Output impedance less than 2 ohms
 Input impedance >= 10K
 Frequency response +/- 0.25 dB 20 hz – 20 Khz 400 mV 16-600 Ohms
 Phase response less than +/- 2 degrees error 100 hz - 20 Khz 16-600 Ohms
 Absolute phase: Preserved
 Slew Rate greater than 3 V/uS using 10 Khz square wave near full output 600 Ohms
 Distortion under 0.01% 20hz – 20 Khz into 16 – 600 ohms from 10 mV – 400 mV RMS
 Channel separation better than -40 dB @ 16 ohms and –60 dB @ 150 ohms 400 mV RMS
 Channel balance error less than 1 dB at any setting down to –45 dB below max volume
 Noise under –105 dBv (103 dBu) unweighted (5.6 uV or -97 dBr referenced to 400 mV)
 DC offset under 5 mV typical, and ideally, under 20 mV worst case
 100% stable with any realistic reactive load from 16 – 600 ohms
 Transient ringing and overshoot tightly controlled with all realistic headphone loads and 0.01 uF
 166 mA per channel, both channels driven, peak current capability at < 1% THD
 6.25 volts RMS on AC power at < 1% THD into 150 ohms
 4.5 volts RMS on DC power (nominal battery voltage) at < 1% THD into 150 ohms
   
  After several pieces of Schiit, SOHA ii, Burson, V200, etc...they all are gone except this little world class 'lacking' amp....and dac...
   
  ...and if you dont like it you can sell it...and not be that much out of pocket....unlike spending $800 - $1000+ and finding out that you dont like them?? Ouch.
   
  All the best
  Alex


----------



## LugBug1

Quote: 





benk97 said:


> Would an Asgard 2 paired with the Modi be a decent combo or would the modi bottle neck the rig?


 
  Yup I'd say so. Just to add, I didn't hear a great lot of difference between the Asgard 1 and Magni. The Asgard had a fraction more refinement, maybe a little better soundstaging.
   
  All dacs at this price range, and that includes the Bitfrost all have similar specs and most use the same chips. The ones nearing $300 tend to have better power supplies. My recommendation for a cheap dac would be the Vdac1(or if you can stretch to the mkII even better) its discontinued but if you can pick one up 2nd hand then you'll probs pay about the same as the modi. Using optical or coaxial input, it can compete with any midfi dac


----------



## BRAC

Quote: 





chris_himself said:


> What rig are you running?


 
   
  SBT>M51>Soloist>LCD3


----------



## LugBug1

Are we witnessing a "Rig-off"


----------



## Landmantx

Rigoff commenced:

Nice flashlight. It is much better than mine 

I lose.


----------



## preproman

"Rig-Off"  Although my camera sucks..


----------



## LugBug1

Wowza!  ^^^
   
  The Dark Destroyer!


----------



## negura

Quote: 





brac said:


> SBT>M51>Soloist>LCD3


 
   
  Nice! I could see a place for these in my future...   Inner voice: No, don't! LCD-2 + Burson Conductor are all you need...


----------



## dagothur

Quote: 





preproman said:


> "Rig-Off"  Although my camera sucks..


 
  "And lo, I saw a mighty beast rise from the waters, and it had written upon its head 'Perfect Wave' and on its back rode the Black One,  and the people shall call him 'First Watt' and many headphones will bow to his power."


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





dagothur said:


> "And lo, I saw a mighty beast rise from the waters, and it had written upon its head 'Perfect Wave' and on its back rode the Black One,  and the people shall call him 'First Watt' and many headphones will bow to his power."


----------



## Uncle00Jesse

how are you connecting the sbt to the m51? edo via usb doesn't work on this dac correct?
  Quote: 





brac said:


> SBT>M51>Soloist>LCD3


----------



## Landmantx

Too funny. Love the Beast!!!


----------



## LugBug1

Quote: 





preproman said:


> "Rig-Off"  Although my camera sucks..


 
   
  You can tell a lot by someones rig.  Preproman's a lovely chap!


----------



## Girls Generation

Lacking real estate.


----------



## Man7rah

You've got an amazing rig allright but if you show me more pictures involving pepsi and mac's I think I'm gonna puke.



> Spoiler: Warning%3A%20Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## MorbidToaster

Rig off?
   

   
  Internet penises, etc.
   
  NO DIGITAL NO PROBLEM.


----------



## preproman

Ha ha ha  -  All analog huh...


----------



## MorbidToaster

Ayup. The Hilo I plan on getting will be used less for it's DAC and more for it's ADC.


----------



## preproman

I'm getting ready to compare the hilo to about 5 DACs..  "At home"


----------



## MorbidToaster

Eager to hear your thoughts. Despite your love on the HE-6. 
   
  Though like I said. I'm mainly planning to needle drop with it more than use it as a DAC.
   
  Quote: 





preproman said:


> I getting ready to compare the hilo to about 5 DACs..  "At home"


----------



## KingStyles

Since when did this become a picture thread? lol


----------



## BRAC

uncle00jesse said:


> how are you connecting the sbt to the m51? edo via usb doesn't work on this dac correct?



I'm running coax out of the SBT.

I haven't tried USB. The SBT doesn't do USB out by default, right? I usually prefer coax anyway and the SBT is brilliant via coax.

Btw, what is "edo"?


----------



## Girls Generation

Spoiler: Warning%3A%20Spoiler!%20-%20Mac%20vs.%20PC%20war



 
 Macs... 
   
  1. Better customer service - no shipping products in and waiting months for some simple warranty service
  2. Better OS that just makes sense - ease of use / fluidness / comfort / multiple desktops
  3. Better reliability
  4. Better aesthetics - thinner and lighter without compromise in performance
  5. Better at handling viruses
  6. Better mousepad - gestures
  7. Better resale value and ease
  8. Better OS upgrades - cheap / one purchase for all macs in house
  9. Better organization in general
  10. Better connection with other devices - tablet / phone / TV
   
  PCs...
   
  1. Better software compatibility
  2. Better gaming performance (?) - trade off with thicker and heavier chassis
  3.


----------



## Girls Generation

DO WANT.
  Quote: 





preproman said:


> Ha ha ha  -  All analog huh...


----------



## R-Audiohead

Quote: 





girls generation said:


> Spoiler: Warning%3A%20Spoiler!%20-%20Mac%20vs.%20PC%20war
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Price performance ratio for PCs?


----------



## Girls Generation

Oh yes, price performance ratio. But reliability, customer service, and resale value makes up for most of that. I'd rather pay the premium for the customer service alone.
   
  PC person for a good 10 years, and still going strong, but reality hit me a while back. 
  Quote: 





r-audiohead said:


> Price performance ratio for PCs?


 
   
   
  On another note, preproman, how is the GSX2 with the LCD3?


----------



## Landmantx

I switched to Mac last time and it has been the best decision. Not one spyware or virus in 2 years. I have only had to reboot one time in 2 years. It runs as fast today as it did when I bought it. I look at it all as a huge value, because after two years, I am not itching to upgrade at all. I never kept a PC more than 2 years cause they fell apart. I would just nerd out and build my own though, so overall it might have been slightly less expensive, but I had to perform so much maintenance on it that I hated it. Not to mention I got the 27" iMac and that monitor is world class.


----------



## MorbidToaster

Another Texan...
   
  Also, the 27" iMac makes an excellent TV as well. Love the fact it's accepts an IN, too.
   
  Quote: 





landmantx said:


> I switched to Mac last time and it has been the best decision. Not one spyware or virus in 2 years. I have only had to reboot one time in 2 years. It runs as fast today as it did when I bought it. I look at it all as a huge value, because after two years, I am not itching to upgrade at all. I never kept a PC more than 2 years cause they fell apart. I would just nerd out and build my own though, so overall it might have been slightly less expensive, but I had to perform so much maintenance on it that I hated it. Not to mention I got the 27" iMac and that monitor is world class.


----------



## Girls Generation

Yeah... PC laptops fail on me too quick, and I have to reinstall Windows every so often... Gets slow for no reason... Windows Update oh my god.... I have to find 'drivers' for stuff... Then new Windows OS updates come out too often, and I have to pay $100+ every time and it can only work on one computer... Christ
   
  My Retina IPS screen isn't too shabby. Damn sharp.
   
  OK I think I derailed the thread too much, although there isn't much activity in here anyways.
  Quote: 





landmantx said:


> I switched to Mac last time and it has been the best decision. Not one spyware or virus in 2 years. I have only had to reboot one time in 2 years. It runs as fast today as it did when I bought it. I look at it all as a huge value, because after two years, I am not itching to upgrade at all. I never kept a PC more than 2 years cause they fell apart. I would just nerd out and build my own though, so overall it might have been slightly less expensive, but I had to perform so much maintenance on it that I hated it. Not to mention I got the 27" iMac and that monitor is world class.


----------



## longbowbbs

Quote: 





girls generation said:


> Spoiler: Warning%3A%20Spoiler!%20-%20Mac%20vs.%20PC%20war
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  +1....


----------



## paradoxper

Yea, but using the BS Windows is more vulnerable to viruses argument is stupid.
   
  If anything, Windows is safer (from all its years of being attacked), we're finally seeing OS X viruses, not to mention the tech dumb portion of Mac user's
  being social engineered.
   
  Apple only has aesthetics over PC. Everything else is just preference. Each OS is on par with one another, at least IMO.


----------



## Girls Generation

Every day there are new viruses, and vulnerability is high. Windows is so open to attack.
   
  There are too few instances of OSX Viruses to really draw a conclusion that they're on the same level. Also, do note that I never said they were invulnerable; I said they were better and handling them, which includes preventing, and the fact that there are fewer.
   
  Preference is true, but there comes a point where ease of use, or better customer service, is too blatant to call it preference. That's like saying putting on slippers vs. boots is preference, and none are easier to put on than the other.
   
  Then there's a consensus of reliability, resale value, and OS upgrades/pricing that is fact. Sure there may be few cases of macs breaking down, but in the long run, and in a wider perspective, PC laptops are less reliable since each part is sourced by a different company and manufacturer.
  Quote: 





paradoxper said:


> Yea, but using the BS Windows is more vulnerable to viruses argument is stupid.
> 
> If anything, *Windows is safer (from all its years of being attacked)*, we're finally seeing *OS X viruses*, not to mention the tech dumb portion of Mac user's
> being social engineered.
> ...


----------



## dagothur

I'm far from curmudgeonly, but I don't think Mac vs. PC is the right discussion for this particular thread.
 Where should I go from my NFB if I decide to upgrade in the fall?  I don't want to make the jump for the LCD-3 quite yet.


----------



## MorbidToaster

Just wanted to chime in on the OT discussion. Not the Mac vs PC garbage, but this...
   
  You only get viruses if you do stupid things on your computer. I've never run an anti-virus in my life and I've never had an issue either...


----------



## Girls Generation

Yeah sorry about that.
   
  Well you'd need to tell us your budget, and your sonic preferences. Please don't get the LCD3 if you don't have a proper rig, that you'd like to end-game at, first.
  Quote: 





dagothur said:


> I'm far from curmudgeonly, but I don't think Mac vs. PC is the right discussion for this particular thread.
> Where should I go from my NFB if I decide to upgrade in the fall?  I don't want to make the jump for the LCD-3 quite yet.


----------



## Girls Generation

x2. I don't run any anti-virus programs either on my PC, and haven't for years. But it still doesn't change the fact that the plain open vulnerability is still there, exacerbated by the fact that the PC world is filled with a gazillion little things that can infect.
  Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> Just wanted to chime in on the OT discussion. Not the Mac vs PC garbage, but this...
> 
> You only get viruses if you do stupid things on your computer. I've never run an anti-virus in my life and I've never had an issue either...


----------



## dagothur

Quote: 





girls generation said:


> Yeah sorry about that.
> 
> Well you'd need to tell us your budget, and your sonic preferences. Please don't get the LCD3 if you don't have a proper rig, that you'd like to end-game at, first.


 
  I'd say up to $1000 and I'd like an amp/dac combo that's neutral and revealing.


----------



## Chris_Himself

Quote: 





benk97 said:


> Yea I want the bi frost but the problem with that is that its out of my price range. Most of my money is being allocated towards the LCD2's themselves and I only have 200-300 bucks left to pick up a Amp/DAC.


 
   
  Oh geez, don't feel pressured to buy all this brand name stuff to keep up. They really do sound good out of just a receiver. it just needs current.. it's a pretty remedial problem since it's tone isn't super dependent on amp. Source is not a place to skimp ever despite my dislike for DAC shopping.
   
  I think the AudioGD NFB wonder-boxes will do way more than fine for you. I've had an 11, 12, and 15.1 and they all sound quite quite good. I went from a Bifrost/Lyr setup when the Lyr launched to one of those without complaints. Yes I did lose a little bit of warmth and headroom, but it was a little. It's nice to pay money for American made products, but you gotta look out for you at the end of the day and the AGD stuff is still top rate for me.
   
*To everybody in the "rig-off":

 HOLY CRAP.*
   
  Thanks to everybody who participated, sorry if I seemed passive aggressive BRAC, it's just sometimes low-post guys with stock avatars rebutting to my opinions sets off my skepticism.. truth be told the Burson Soloist is my current favorite single-ended amp for LCD-2, HD650, and HD800. I think Head-Fi is more fun when we're posting pics than graphs 
   
   


morbidtoaster said:


> Just wanted to chime in on the OT discussion. Not the Mac vs PC garbage, but this...
> 
> You only get viruses if you do stupid things on your computer. I've never run an anti-virus in my life and I've never had an issue either...


 


 Depends what sites you go to for pron too lawl


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





paradoxper said:


> Yea, but using the BS Windows is more vulnerable to viruses argument is stupid.
> 
> If anything, Windows is safer (from all its years of being attacked), we're finally seeing OS X viruses, not to mention the tech dumb portion of Mac user's
> being social engineered.
> ...


 
   
  +1.
   
  Plus if you happen to be a DIY'er like me.  Well I don't DIY myself but I like having stuff made from scratch.  I like buying my own parts.  You can't do that with a MAC your stuck in that MAC vise grip of you get to have what we tell you you can have.  
   
  Building PCs is fun.  Plus you get way more out of it performance wise for the price you pay.  At that point customer service "hardware wise" is on you.


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





girls generation said:


> On another note, preproman, how is the GSX2 with the LCD3?


 
   
  It's a pretty good match.  More attack than the B22 but yet not as aggressive as the MJ or the BHA-1.  Gives the LCD-3 a larger soundstage.  I thought the B22 had a large SS.  The GS-Xs is equal if not larger.  Very Crisp. Very Clean and very good punch with bass weight and extension.  The treble is extended while staying nice and smooth.
   
  With the arrival of the GS-X mk2 - I still say - if the LCD-3 is your only headphone.  The MJ is hard to beat at that price point.  It's not until you get into multiple headphones where the GS-X and the B22 becomes better.  IMO..


----------



## myap2328

I am thinking I getting a graham slew novo with the LCD 2, it outputs 150mw rms to 32 ohm and 40mw rms to 600 ohm, if te LCD 2 requires 2 watts, would it suck?

EDIT: I realized there's somebody selling the entire Schiit line, with the Valhalla and lye priced equally, which is better and would they bring the LCD 2 to the max?


----------



## olor1n

Quote: 





brac said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  LOL. Owned.


----------



## Girls Generation

Would you say the same thing if Googleli shows up and posts pics of his crap?
  Quote: 





olor1n said:


> LOL. Owned.


----------



## ninjikiran

The amp in the compass 2 makes the LCD-2 shine quite a bit. Doesn't bring out any sibilance from the sabre either.
   
   I have used the LCD-2 extensively with the Matrix M-Stage, Concerto, Lyr, and Taboo MK2.  And the Bifrost/NFB-2 dacs.


----------



## LugBug1

Quote: 





ninjikiran said:


> The amp in the compass 2 makes the LCD-2 shine quite a bit. Doesn't bring out any sibilance from the sabre either.
> 
> I have used the LCD-2 extensively with the Matrix M-Stage, Concerto, Lyr, and Taboo MK2.  And the Bifrost/NFB-2 dacs.


 
  How did you find the LCD2's with the M-stage?


----------



## olor1n

girls generation said:


> Would you say the same thing if Googleli shows up and posts pics of his crap?
> 
> 
> olor1n said:
> ...




No I wouldn't. There were subsequent posts flaunting gear in a googleli like manner.

The ownage was inevitable. The dude puffs his chest out and posts a pic of his stack like it's unassailable. Just because someone doesn't have a sig occupying half the page and pics of their gear in every goddam thread doesn't mean they're slumming it.


----------



## Maxvla

preproman said:


> It's a pretty good match.  More attack than the B22 but yet not as aggressive as the MJ or the BHA-1.  Gives the LCD-3 a larger soundstage.  I thought the B22 had a large SS.  The GS-Xs is equal if not larger.  Very Crisp. Very Clean and very good punch with bass weight and extension.  The treble is extended while staying nice and smooth.
> 
> With the arrival of the GS-X mk2 - I still say - if the LCD-3 is your only headphone.  The MJ is hard to beat at that price point.  It's not until you get into multiple headphones where the GS-X and the B22 becomes better.  IMO..



That sounds identical to me describing the GS-X mk2 with the HD800.


----------



## Man7rah

> preproman said:
> 
> 
> > It's a pretty good match.  More attack than the B22 but yet not as aggressive as the MJ or the BHA-1.  Gives the LCD-3 a larger soundstage.  I thought the B22 had a large SS.  The GS-Xs is equal if not larger.  Very Crisp. Very Clean and very good punch with bass weight and extension.  The treble is extended while staying nice and smooth.
> ...


 
  These two posts make me sad that I don't have a spare 3k laying arround.


----------



## MorbidToaster

Quote: 





man7rah said:


>


 
  Isn't everyone sad they don't a spare 3k sitting around?


----------



## Maxvla

I wish I had a spare 3k sitting around even after I spent said 3k.


----------



## longbowbbs

Quote: 





girls generation said:


> Would you say the same thing if Googleli shows up and posts pics of his crap?
> Quote:
> 
> 
> ...


 
  I think the quote then would be Owned by my gear....
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.


----------



## Rawrbington

Quote: 





maxvla said:


> I wish I had a spare 3k sitting around even after I spent said 3k.


 

 haha
  yeah me too!
   
  had been listening to vinyl from my rebuilt marantz 2245.  sounds really good.
  my upgraded WA6SE goes great with the LCD2 as well.
  as does my Kenwood 9050 and yamaha A S500
  my WA2 didn't work as well.
  really everythign i've tried them on has worked nicely except the WA2
  would really like to give the gunjir or Bryston a go
  but i just can't justify having another 2k worth of stuff on top of what I already have.
  and my true love really lies with speakers.
  but to get really high end sound... well a teachers salary doesn't afford that luxury
  as it stands now i've got way more in my audio gear than what my car is worth...


----------



## Girls Generation

Well it IS Head-fi. Lots of newkids with no gear talking big and posting as if they've heard or have gear. I don't know if anyone would really be ignorant enough to think Mjolnir/Gungnir stack would be unassailable; I'd think it was just to test to see if BRAC indeed had gear enough to prove his prior statement regarding his disagreement with OP's thoughts.
  Quote: 





olor1n said:


> No I wouldn't. There were subsequent posts flaunting gear in a googleli like manner.
> 
> The ownage was inevitable. *The dude puffs his chest out and posts a pic of his stack like it's unassailable.* Just because someone doesn't have a sig occupying half the page and pics of their gear in every goddam thread doesn't mean they're slumming it.


----------



## KingStyles

Were going to have to add Googleli to the wiki. It would be a shame if future generations didnt know of his legacy and that his name is a verb now. Lets all get along and not pull a googleli.


----------



## Girls Generation

Quote: 





kingstyles said:


> Were going to have to add Googleli to the wiki. It would be a shame if future generations didnt know of his legacy and that his name is a verb now. Lets all get along and not pull a googleli.


----------



## Man7rah

Quote: 





kingstyles said:


> Were going to have to add Googleli to the wiki. It would be a shame if future generations didnt know of his legacy and that his name is a verb now. Lets all get along and not pull a googleli.


 
  someone please referr me to some of his posts, I want to get in on this!


----------



## Girls Generation

Me: Recommend me some amps please, I have a tight budget allowance as I'm still a starving student audiophile. I'm looking for _______ kind of sound and blah blah.
   
  Googleli: Why not just get a Liquid Fire.

   
  Me:
   
   
  Quote: 





man7rah said:


> someone please referr me to some of his posts, I want to get in on this!


----------



## myap2328

girls generation said:


> Me: Recommend me some amps please, I have a tight budget allowance as I'm still a starving student audiophile. I'm looking for _______ kind of sound and blah blah.
> 
> Googleli: Why not just get a Liquid Fire.
> 
> ...




+1! I have a budget of below 500usd, is the lyr good enough for the LCD-2 or is there others that have a better price/performance ratio?


----------



## Girls Generation

What DAC do you have?
  Quote: 





myap2328 said:


> +1! I have a budget of below 500usd, is the lyr good enough for the LCD-2 or is there others that have a better price/performance ratio?


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





preproman said:


> It's a pretty good match.  More attack than the B22 but yet not as aggressive as the MJ or the BHA-1.  Gives the LCD-3 a larger soundstage.  I thought the B22 had a large SS.  The GS-Xs is equal if not larger.  Very Crisp. Very Clean and very good punch with bass weight and extension.  The treble is extended while staying nice and smooth.
> 
> With the arrival of the GS-X mk2 - I still say - if the LCD-3 is your only headphone.  The MJ is hard to beat at that price point.  It's not until you get into multiple headphones where the GS-X and the B22 becomes better.  IMO..


 
   
  Looks like we hear the GS-X the same with the LCD-3s. I no longer have the LCD-2s around to pair it with my GS-X. But I can easily say that my LCD-3s have never sounded better (and that includes the WA22 with about $1k of upgraded tubes or the Liquid Fire with about $500 of Siemens tubes installed).
   
  Very versatile amp too, from my IEMs (Westone 4s) right up to all of my full sized dynamic cans...and all sound brilliantly through the amp.


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





myap2328 said:


> +1! I have a budget of below 500usd, is the lyr good enough for the LCD-2 or is there others that have a better price/performance ratio?


 
  For the LCD-2s, the Lyr is the best option for you IMO. A great pairing. Not so great with the LCD-3s, but fantastic with the LCD-2s.


----------



## myap2328

macedonianhero said:


> For the LCD-2s, the Lyr is the best option for you IMO. A great pairing. Not so great with the LCD-3s, but fantastic with the LCD-2s.




2 questions. Why isn't it good with the lcd-3 and how about the other schiit?


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





myap2328 said:


> 2 questions. Why isn't it good with the lcd-3 and how about the other schiit?


 
  Sounded lifeless with the LCD-3s. The LCD-3s are a much pickier headphone of amping. One of the great things about the LCD-2s IMO is that they sounded great from almost anything, but the LCD-3s are a tougher nut to crack. Could be that they are more revealing of upstream gear?
   
  I've heard very good things about the LCD-3s with the Mjolinir though.


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *MacedonianHero* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> The LCD-3s are a much pickier headphone of amping. One of the great things about the LCD-2s IMO is that they sounded great from almost anything, but the LCD-3s are a tougher nut to crack. Could be that they are more revealing of upstream gear?
> 
> I've heard very good things about the LCD-3s with the Mjolinir though.


 
   
  Yup.  Agreed on all accounts there ^^^  Also both LCDs sound pretty darn good on the MJ..  Also I like both LCDs paired with the MJ better than the HD800.


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





preproman said:


> Yup.  Agreed on all accounts there ^^^  Also both LCDs sound pretty darn good on the MJ..  Also I like both LCDs paired with the MJ better than the HD800.


 
  LoL, it was yours and Solude's experiences with the LCD-3 and Mjolinir that had me mention that it was highly regarded.


----------



## Girls Generation

If he doesn't have a DAC then I wouldn't suggest a Lyr. Magni/Modi or O2/ODAC can be a stopgap before saving up for more. Both are easy to resell as well.


----------



## myap2328

Quote: 





girls generation said:


> If he doesn't have a DAC then I wouldn't suggest a Lyr. Magni/Modi or O2/ODAC can be a stopgap before saving up for more. Both are easy to resell as well.


 
   
  Hmmm.... What if I my source were to be a iphone 4s which is already analogue (or would it sound like schiit, lol.)
  I'm not sure if what you recommended is available in my country, will check.


----------



## Girls Generation

Yeah........ iPhone to Lyr... Not good. Not good at all.


----------



## kothganesh

macedonianhero said:


> For the LCD-2s, the Lyr is the best option for you IMO. A great pairing. Not so great with the LCD-3s, but fantastic with the LCD-2s.


You just made my day. After agonizing over several amps I ordered the Lyr which I hope to pair with Bifrost.


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





girls generation said:


> If he doesn't have a DAC then I wouldn't suggest a Lyr. Magni/Modi or O2/ODAC can be a stopgap before saving up for more. Both are easy to resell as well.


 
  I would still go with the Lyr and upgrade a DAC down the road. The other way, you'd have to upgrade your amp again. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  Quote: 





kothganesh said:


> You just made my day. After agonizing over several amps I ordered the Lyr which I hope to pair with Bifrost.


 
  Nice! Congrats!


----------



## myap2328

I think since the priority is headphone>amp>dac/source, i think I would drive the lyr with my com using USB (wanna bypass my com's crappy amp). Hw much wld a dac affect it?


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





myap2328 said:


> I think since the priority is headphone>amp>dac/source, i think I would drive the lyr with my com using USB (wanna bypass my com's crappy amp). Hw much wld a dac affect it?


 
  Quite a bit actually. The Bifrost would be a good improvement for not a lot of $$. Even the Modi would help (and that's like $100ish).


----------



## Dubstep Girl

Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> Quite a bit actually. The Bifrost would be a good improvement for not a lot of $$. Even the Modi would help (and that's like $100ish).


 
   
  +1


----------



## Girls Generation

That's upgrade priority; purchase priority doesn't work like that, meaning that's only when you have all three. If you don't have one of the three, priority is to get that missing part first. You wouldn't be able to connect your computer via usb to the Lyr... You'd need to get a 1/8" to RCA. Still, you'd get garbage.
  Quote: 





myap2328 said:


> I think since the priority is headphone>amp>dac/source, i think I would drive the lyr with my com using USB (wanna bypass my com's crappy amp). Hw much wld a dac affect it?


 
   
  Not if he's using iPhone or computer motherboard.
  Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> I would still go with the Lyr and upgrade a DAC down the road. The other way, you'd have to upgrade your amp again.


 
   
  Get an amp, AND a DAC. Within your budget. Magni/Modi. O2/ODAC. Bifrost/Lyr if you can spend a bit more.


----------



## myap2328

girls generation said:


> That's upgrade priority; purchase priority doesn't work like that, meaning that's only when you have all three. If you don't have one of the three, priority is to get that missing part first. You wouldn't be able to connect your computer via usb to the Lyr... You'd need to get a 1/8" to RCA. Still, you'd get garbage.
> 
> Not if he's using iPhone or computer motherboard.
> 
> Get an amp, AND a DAC. Within your budget. Magni/Modi. O2/ODAC. Bifrost/Lyr if you can spend a bit more.




Sure will shop around for a cheap dac. It would suffice right, for now? I think that i should spend more on the amp first right?

EDIT: You mean plugging a Left-Right Plug into the lyr with a terminating USB plug won't work


----------



## Girls Generation

That depends on if you're planning on upgrading later on. Magni/Modi and O2/ODAC are very easy to resell and offer one of the best price to performance ratios, and will also suffice with the LCD2. I mean you can get a Magni and Lyr, atleast that's something. USB is digital, and RCA is analog, meaning no bueno.
  Quote: 





myap2328 said:


> Sure will shop around for a cheap dac. It would suffice right, for now? I think that i should spend more on the amp first right?
> 
> EDIT: You mean plugging a Left-Right Plug into the lyr with a terminating USB plug won't work


----------



## myap2328

Is the magni the only option at that price point, seems pretty enticing to me but I would have to buy it online and I kinda don't like doing so. My local store have some cheap Nuforce Dac but it seems like it isn't good.

Btw, what if i were to say:
Asgard vs Valhalla vs Lyr.

Their price diff don't THAT huge but if there is no need for the jump I might as well take the cheaper one right?


----------



## kothganesh

Asga





myap2328 said:


> Is the magni the only option at that price point, seems pretty enticing to me but I would have to buy it online and I kinda don't like doing so. My local store have some cheap Nuforce Dac but it seems like it isn't good.
> 
> Btw, what if i were to say:
> Asgard vs Valhalla vs Lyr.
> ...



Asgard is a good amp and I currently use it to drive my LCD2.2 and HE 400. I hear the Asgard 2 is even better assuming that the issue with the hum is resolved.


----------



## kothganesh

kothganesh said:


> Asga
> Asgard is a good amp and I currently use it to drive my LCD2.2 and HE 400. I hear the Asgard 2 is even better assuming that the issue with the hum is resolved.



Just to follow up on my last post, you don't get the Asgard from Schiit, you will get the Asgard 2


----------



## LugBug1

Quote: 





myap2328 said:


> Is the magni the only option at that price point, seems pretty enticing to me but I would have to buy it online and I kinda don't like doing so. My local store have some cheap Nuforce Dac but it seems like it isn't good.
> 
> Btw, what if i were to say:
> Asgard vs Valhalla vs Lyr.
> ...


 
  Stay clear of the Valhalla for the LCD2's its tube only and doesn't give them the current they need. It's designed for high impedance cans like 650's T1's etc


----------



## myap2328

lugbug1 said:


> Stay clear of the Valhalla for the LCD2's its tube only and doesn't give them the current they need. It's designed for high impedance cans like 650's T1's etc




Noted thanks, saw it on Schiit's website too. Valhalla down, so what about:

Magni vs Asgard vs Lyr

The magni+modi seems like great value but I am not sure if it gives the LCD-2 enough energy. If its comparable to the lye or Asgard maybe I will giv it a shot?


----------



## kothganesh

myap2328 said:


> Noted thanks, saw it on Schiit's website too. Valhalla down, so what about:
> 
> Magni vs Asgard vs Lyr
> 
> The magni+modi seems like great value but I am not sure if it gives the LCD-2 enough energy. If its comparable to the lye or Asgard maybe I will giv it a shot?


IMHO, you will need at a minimum, the Asgard 2. I have already asked this question to Jason at Schiit


----------



## myap2328

kothganesh said:


> IMHO, you will need at a minimum, the Asgard 2. I have already asked this question to Jason at Schiit




Ok. What do you guys thing abt Asgard (2)/Lyr + Modi combo?

Edit: Any comment on the WA3 from Woo-Audio?


----------



## kothganesh

myap2328 said:


> Ok. What do you guys thing abt Asgard (2)/Lyr + Modi combo?
> 
> Edit: Any comment on the WA3 from Woo-Audio?


my 0.02; Modi/Magni is the combo, Bifrost pairs better with Asgard/Lyr


----------



## myap2328

Quote: 





kothganesh said:


> my 0.02; Modi/Magni is the combo, Bifrost pairs better with Asgard/Lyr


 
  If you see the previous post, the magni isn't sufficient, said by the schiit staff themselves.


----------



## paradoxper

Plenty of people have used the LCD-2 with the M&M stack with no problems.
   
  With that said, the budget Schiit isn't bringing out the LCD's to their full potential. 
   
  But the stack is solid and easily listenable.


----------



## myap2328

Ok. I understand now. Thanks. But anybody got any views of LCD-2 + Woo Audio WA3?


----------



## LugBug1

Quote: 





paradoxper said:


> Plenty of people have used the LCD-2 with the M&M stack with no problems.
> 
> With that said, the budget Schiit isn't bringing out the LCD's to their full potential.
> 
> But the stack is solid and easily listenable.


 
  +1
   
  I've used the Magni with them and it does a great job. It powers them as good as they need. But at the end of the day, the LCD2's are a high end headphone and will of course benefit from better amping. I'm sure you will be happy with the Magni for now as there isn't a great lot of difference to the Asgard 1 IMO. Plus It will give you time to play with your LCD's and see how you like them. You can then decide which direction you want to go. I found that if you pair the Magni with a half decent dac, then you've already got a good LCD2 set up. The LCD2's are very transparent with source, I would say more so than with amping requirements.


----------



## MattTCG

Quote: 





kothganesh said:


> IMHO, you will need at a minimum, the Asgard 2. I have already asked this question to Jason at Schiit


 
   
  ^^ this +1


----------



## Maxvla

WA3 is OTL, designed for high impedance. Not a good match.


----------



## myap2328

Quote: 





matttcg said:


> ^^ this +1


 
   
   
  Quote: 





maxvla said:


> WA3 is OTL, designed for high impedance. Not a good match.


 

 Noted guys, you have been a great help! Thanks for all the very helpful replies. Finally figured my budget needed to get an lcd-2 plus worthy amp/dac.


----------



## thegrobe

I am the new owner of an LCD-2. I am awaiting the arrival of the CEntrance Hi-Fi M8 to drive it as a transportable unit. (along with Heir CIEM's). I am keeping an eye out for an eventual desktop DAC/AMP rig so following this thread. Interesting...This could get expensive! LOL
   
  Plan on me chiming in with stupid questions


----------



## dagothur

I'm thinking of upgrading my amp/dac in the fall and will have at least $1200 to spend.  I like my NFB's sound a great deal and would like to not stray too far from it.  Is there an amp/dac combo around this price that would suit my needs?  I can't upgrade my DAC without also upgrading the amp, so I would either need a new combo or two new units.


----------



## Chris_Himself

Quote: 





myap2328 said:


> Ok. I understand now. Thanks. But anybody got any views of LCD-2 + Woo Audio WA3?


 
   
  Heard it at a meet, not a bad combo to have, a little warm and mid-rangey for my taste though. I prefer solid state most of the time for something like LCD-2, HD800 is a different story.


----------



## LugBug1

I really like my Audio gd c2.2 with the LCD2's. I pair it with an Arcam Rdac and it sounds great to me and its well with in your budget. The price of the C2.2 is great for what you get, and that means you could keep the Audio gd sound that you like and spend a bit more on source. Possibly a Yulong Sabre 32 bit dac?


----------



## i019791

Quote: 





dagothur said:


> I'm thinking of upgrading my amp/dac in the fall and will have at least $1200 to spend.  I like my NFB's sound a great deal and would like to not stray too far from it.  Is there an amp/dac combo around this price that would suit my needs?  I can't upgrade my DAC without also upgrading the amp, so I would either need a new combo or two new units.


 
  NFB-1.32  +  NFB-6


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





dagothur said:


> I'm thinking of upgrading my amp/dac in the fall and will have at least $1200 to spend.  I like my NFB's sound a great deal and would like to not stray too far from it.  Is there an amp/dac combo around this price that would suit my needs?  I can't upgrade my DAC without also upgrading the amp, so I would either need a new combo or two new units.


 
   
  http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/Headphoneamp/NFB27/NFB27EN.htm
   
  http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/Headphoneamp/Reference10/RE10EN.htm
   
  Is there a reason the PCM devices cost more than the Saber devices?


----------



## Dubstep Girl

even with the best tubes, my WA2 could not drive the LCD-2 properly, rawrbington seems to have had similar experiences. i can only imagine the WA3 to be worse.


----------



## Girls Generation

Well... I'll be selling my Gungnir and Mjolnir soon, though I'm looking at 1300.


----------



## Chris_Himself

Quote: 





girls generation said:


> Well... I'll be selling my Gungnir and Mjolnir soon, though I'm looking at 1300.


 
   
  Not saying what we have is total complete end-game, but Schiit made it really easy for us to buy what we have based on hard specs and backing it with a money-back guarantee..
   
  If you find something and you actually like it more with both side-by-side, lemme know dude cuz shopping for this stuff is hard, but I'm all about getting the best gear for my money


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





chris_himself said:


> Not saying what we have is total complete end-game, but Schiit made it really easy for us to buy what we have based on hard specs and backing it with a money-back guarantee..
> 
> If you find something and you actually like it more with both side-by-side, lemme know dude cuz shopping for this stuff is hard, but I'm all about getting the best gear for my money


 
  Best gear for money, good luck bettering the Schiit.
   
  However I could totally see upgrading Gungnir. Mjolnir is as solid as they come pending preference. So no worry, Chris.


----------



## myap2328

I just realized headphone prices are peanuts when you see how much the prices of amps and dacs can go to.


----------



## olor1n

Quote: 





paradoxper said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  para, you parted with the Gungnir?! I'm stunned. What are you moving on to?


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





olor1n said:


> para, you parted with the Gungnir?! I'm stunned. What are you moving on to?


 
  Was going to happen either way. I just feel statement DAC is going to be later than already planned.
   
  I'm looking at the Hilo or PWD as a tide me over. Possibly a Lampizator or Cantata (if I can swing it) to just bypass the statement DAc.
   
  I still miss Gungnir, however I felt it was clearly the bottleneck overall. With Mjolnir I feel completely the opposite though.


----------



## wizia

Let's say the Mjolnir and the V200 cost the same where I live, which one would you choose?
   
  I know this has been discussed already but now take price out of the equation.


----------



## AManAnd88Keys

Quote: 





preproman said:


> http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/Headphoneamp/NFB27/NFB27EN.htm
> 
> http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/Headphoneamp/Reference10/RE10EN.htm
> 
> Is there a reason the PCM devices cost more than the Saber devices?


 
  Quote from Audio-Gd's product page:
   
  " [size=x-small]TI want to discontinued PCM1704 but there are still a lot hi-end fans love the real sound of the PCM1704UK.[/size]
 [size=x-small]  The Reference 5.32 built in 4 pcs PCM1704UK which is cost USD 48 /pc from TI and USD70 / pc from market , cause the Reference 5.32 price costly than NFB-17.2 , and we can't confirm when it will discontinued .[/size]"
   
  So according to them, the PCM1704UK is pricey. On those models, they often use 4 or more of the PCM chips instead of one single Sabre or a pair of (cheaper) WM chips, which adds to the price.


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





girls generation said:


> Well... I'll be selling my Gungnir and Mjolnir soon, though I'm looking at 1300.


 
   
  What's next?


----------



## Chris_Himself

Quote: 





paradoxper said:


> Best gear for money, good luck bettering the Schiit.
> 
> However I could totally see upgrading Gungnir. Mjolnir is as solid as they come pending preference. So no worry, Chris.


 
   
  Yeah here's to finding a better DAC than Gungnir. I don't like all the clicks all the time, it's really annoying when it clicks on/off just because it's streaming Windows sounds like an error message, or like an IM from somebody. I'm hoping it's just user error because I'd otherwise be a happy camper.
   
  Quote: 





myap2328 said:


> I just realized headphone prices are peanuts when you see how much the prices of amps and dacs can go to.


 
   
  Nah, the headphones don't even really sound that much better with the high dollar stuff, I'm just anal retentive and audio gear is a good investment since you can have a lot of personal enjoyment, but head-fi makes it easy since there is a thriving 2ndhand market for all of this stuff.


----------



## kothganesh

Quote: 





myap2328 said:


> I just realized headphone prices are peanuts when you see how much the prices of amps and dacs can go to.


 
  Tell me about it...the temptation is now to match a specific amp to an HP... Lyr to LCD-2, Soloist to HE-500 etc... whew, the wallet, its becoming leaner by the day


----------



## MorbidToaster

I'd actually check Audiogon first rather than Head-fi. Head-fiers tend to want to lose maybe 10-20% on used sales where 'goners will sell stuff for 40-60% in a heartbeat.
   
  Also, Maxvla seemed to think his new X-Sabre pooped all over Mjolnir. Consider that. It is quite good. I can attest to that after hearing it at the Austin meet.


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





morbidtoaster said:


> I'd actually check Audiogon first rather than Head-fi. Head-fiers tend to want to lose maybe 10-20% on used sales where 'goners will sell stuff for 40-60% in a heartbeat.
> 
> Also, Maxvla seemed to think his new* X-Sabre pooped all over Mjolnir. *Consider that. It is quite good. I can attest to that after hearing it at the Austin meet.


 
   
   
  Gungnir maybe??


----------



## MorbidToaster

My bad, getting my norse mythology mixed up. 
   
  Quote: 





preproman said:


> Gungnir maybe??


----------



## Girls Generation

Looking into Dacs right now, and probably a Super 7 or Sonett 2. Gotta hear them first. 
  Quote: 





preproman said:


> What's next?


----------



## apollo11

I had audition LCD2, I love the bass and excellent with rock. Used it once using woo audio WA6 with sophia princess & Burson conductor. Both of which sound great with this amplifier. But what engage me more with the 2 is that the WA6 put them into other perspective. it has a wider soundstage, more musical to the ear and well focused tonality. I hope I could have both. But since don't have enough money to buy them, I would just settle for the LCD 2(still saving money to buy it/ or settle with a grado ps500) using my fiio e9.


----------



## Dubstep Girl

it gets even better with the WA6-SE!!!


----------



## apollo11

Ok sir! But I have to get my hand with the lcd2 first, then go right after wa6 Se. I hope I could have enough money to get them simultaneously.


----------



## vincentc

Hello Everybody,
   
  I recently purchased the LCD2 with the Pan Am amp (from ALO audio) and a pair of Siemens 6AK5 W. I have been listening to this setup quite extensively and the sound is amazing! However, I have not try the LCD2 with any other amp/dac and I wanted your option on this matter. So basically, was it a good choice? Could I still improve my setup by using a different Dac (the Pan Am has a Dac)?
   
  BTW, I am waiting for a Toxic Cable.


----------



## Dubstep Girl

yes and yes.


----------



## dfarina

I took delivery of my new LCD-2's over a week ago but had no amp to use them as I had sold my old amp in prep of the new headphones.Been a long wait.Finally my v200 arrived yesterday,plugged in my LCD's and was very underwhelmed with what I herd.I did'nt panic as I know the the burn in process was going to help(better for $2g).After 12 hours things do sound much better,bass is tighter,less grainy.Going to let it continue playing for 100 hours before I make any conclusions,but if it keeps improving from the 12 hour mark I think I will be a happy boy.


----------



## vincentc

Quote: 





dubstep girl said:


> yes and yes.


 

 Thank you for the quick reply. Do you have any suggestion for a DAC? I was looking at the BITFROST, and I've been seeing some good review about this DAC paired with LCDs.


----------



## Dubstep Girl

Quote: 





vincentc said:


> Thank you for the quick reply. Do you have any suggestion for a DAC? I was looking at the BITFROST, and I've been seeing some good review about this DAC paired with LCDs.


 
   
  the Bifrost is a pretty good dac for the money, should be an improvement over the one inside the pan am (most amp/dac combos don't have a very good dac, they only add it for convenience). umm if you really wanted a huge jump up in improvement, you should look into a higher end dac though the bifrost is very good already. Either way,  you should be ok for now with the pan am and the internal dac, its a cute little setup and works great with the LCD-2.


----------



## vincentc

I am planing on upgrading later this year, and hopefully the budget will increase as well 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 But so far I am really pleased with the sound of my setup! Does anyone have tried toxic cable with LCD2?
   
  I am listening to the piano concerto 1 of Brahms with my LCD2 right now and the sound-stage is impressive!


----------



## Francoy

^ You might want to have a look at this thread regarding cables (and yes the Toxic cables get mentioned quite a bit)...
   
  (I suggest you start from the last post reading backwards on this one though)


----------



## vincentc

Quote: 





francoy said:


> ^ You might want to have a look at this thread regarding cables (and yes the Toxic cables get mentioned quite a bit)...
> 
> (I suggest you start from the last post reading backwards on this one though)


 
   
  That's the exact same thread that made me order the Pure Cryo OCC Stranded Silver cable fron Frank 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I just wanted to ear your impression if you had the toxic cable with different DAC/Amp setup.


----------



## myap2328

Hey guys, I have local store selling a Asgard (1st edition) and Lyr, do you think it is worth the jump in price?
  Lyr- SGD 780 (USD 630)
  Asgard- SGD 550 (USD 443)


----------



## vincentc

Quote: 





myap2328 said:


> Hey guys, I have local store selling a Asgard (1st edition) and Lyr, do you think it is worth the jump in price?
> Lyr- SGD 780 (USD 630)
> Asgard- SGD 550 (USD 443)


 
  I am not completely sure of the economy in Singapore, but here is the link to the Schiit website with the price for both the Asgard 2 and the Lyr. There are a lot cheaper there, even with a ~$100 (FedEx Express International), new and it is the Asgard 2!
   
  It could be worth it for you to order them directly on there website.
   
http://schiit.com/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=0&products_id=16


----------



## myap2328

vincentc said:


> I am not completely sure of the economy in Singapore, but here is the link to the Schiit website with the price for both the Asgard 2 and the Lyr. There are a lot cheaper there, even with a ~$100 (FedEx Express International), new and it is the Asgard 2!
> 
> It could be worth it for you to order them directly on there website.
> 
> http://schiit.com/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=0&products_id=16




Ok thanks!


----------



## vincentc

Now in terms of which one you should buy. Well IMO, it is pretty easy you were considering the Asgard 1 for $443 therefore you could simply buy the Lyr from Schiit directly by adding $6 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  I have never try any of these Amp but I personally prefer to have tubes in my amp in order to roll them and get different impression and sonic preferences.


----------



## kothganesh

Quote: 





myap2328 said:


> Hey guys, I have local store selling a Asgard (1st edition) and Lyr, do you think it is worth the jump in price?
> Lyr- SGD 780 (USD 630)
> Asgard- SGD 550 (USD 443)


 
   
   
  Quote: 





vincentc said:


> I am not completely sure of the economy in Singapore, but here is the link to the Schiit website with the price for both the Asgard 2 and the Lyr. There are a lot cheaper there, even with a ~$100 (FedEx Express International), new and it is the Asgard 2!
> 
> It could be worth it for you to order them directly on there website.
> 
> http://schiit.com/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=0&products_id=16


 
  I live in India and have bought the Asgard 1 (two months ago) and the Lyr (now). When you factor in transport costs, the price looks right actually. But do get the Asgard 2...


----------



## kothganesh

Quote: 





myap2328 said:


> Hey guys, I have local store selling a Asgard (1st edition) and Lyr, do you think it is worth the jump in price?
> Lyr- SGD 780 (USD 630)
> Asgard- SGD 550 (USD 443)


 
  I just realized my Asgard 1 has the USB card in it. Please make sure the one you are looking at is similar. Otherwise, just fyi, the prices at your local store is about USD 100 higher than one that is ordered from the Schiit website and adding in transport costs. However, the X-factor is the customs duty. In India its about 20-25%.If you add that in, then my earlier statement of the prices being right holds. Please check what your customs charge is.


----------



## myap2328

Thanks everyone for your help, I'll look into it.


----------



## vincentc

I am glad I did not have to pay any tax when I import my audio stuff to Australia! The postage is atrocious though.


----------



## olor1n

Quote: 





vincentc said:


> I am glad I did not have to pay any tax when I import my audio stuff to Australia! The postage is atrocious though.


 
   
  What? You've not bought anything over $1k have you?
   
  http://www.customs.gov.au/site/page5549.asp#Calculating


----------



## vincentc

Quote: 





olor1n said:


> What? You've not bought anything over $1k have you?
> 
> http://www.customs.gov.au/site/page5549.asp#Calculating


 

 I am scared to tell you what I imported without paying taxes in Australia now :/


----------



## Argo Duck

In nz we pay tax once gst would amount to $50 or more, i.e. anything which, including shipping, comes to us$330 or more. Means almost nothing audiophile escapes the tax and additional handling and bio-monitoring charges.

However, import volumes are high and sometimes they just let stuff through free of charge.


----------



## cssarrow

I'm looking for a balanced amp for my LCD 2 rev.2. (Bamboo)
   
  What does everyone here recommend?
  It would be great if it was under the $600 mark.
   
  Planning on getting a DAC with a Sabre ES9018 Chip, but not sure how much better it is over something like a PCM1795.
  What do you think?
   
*Tim*


----------



## vincentc

Could I have you advise on which DAC to choose : the Schiit Bifrost or the Schiit Gungnir. I am playing on using the RCA input. Is the $400 worth the jump? Or should I look for another brand? Do you have any other suggestion?


----------



## myap2328

Hey guys should I get the bitfrost + lyr or lehmann linear USB? The prices are abt 150 usd diff with the lehmann bring more ez


----------



## AManAnd88Keys

myap2328 said:


> Hey guys should I get the bitfrost + lyr or lehmann linear USB? The prices are abt 150 usd diff with the lehmann bring more ez



I own the Lehmann Linear without USB. It's very neutral and all that, but the USB option is supposedly not so great. A DAC+ Amp combo is the better choice imho, also because you might want to upgrade one of the components at a later point which is easier when they are separate.


----------



## myap2328

amanand88keys said:


> I own the Lehmann Linear without USB. It's very neutral and all that, but the USB option is supposedly not so great. A DAC+ Amp combo is the better choice imho, also because you might want to upgrade one of the components at a later point which is easier when they are separate.




Ok thx.


----------



## nam3less

I don't normally do this (not read a thread from beginning to end), but I really tried and I tried some more, and I read the last 30 pages and I searched through this one, and I found nothing conclusive.
   
  My budget is 5-600 but the lower the better. I'm pretty set on an ODAC or perhaps another Modi which leaves me with around $450 for an Amp. Buying a $450 amp is on the high side but if it makes that much more of an improvement over, say, an Asgard 2, then I'll consider it.
   
  I don't really want to roll tubes but I want enough power for my LCD-2 so that's why i'm kind of leaning away from the Lyr but at the same time torn. By the time I get done tube rolling, I could have just bought a Soloist or something like that but the Lyr will give me the power I need and then some. 
   
  I'm more of a solid state person anyway since they tend to be more transparent and much less maintenance. My initial thought was Asgard 2 but from what i'm reading it seems like while it gets the job done, I could benefit from a higher powered amp. 
   
  Any recommendations you guys have would be great. Should I indeed go ahead with the ODAC or simply get another Modi? I like the aesthetics of Schiit (hhhehehe) but I do kind of want to try out the ODAC since it is supposedly more transparent.
   
  Thanks!


----------



## Argo Duck

^ are you sure you need loads of power? This is not an HE-6.

'LCD2 is easy to drive' is one point many agree on.
Case in point - I have several amps ranging from 500mW (driven from a 2Vrms source) to 4W (Lyr).
All are ample - power is not what differentiates their quality as LCD2 amps.

With so many amps available, and relatively few head-fiers able to get together and compare performance under ideal and matched conditions, it's not surprising you cannot find consensus at your price point.


----------



## adydula

I went thru several amps, the Lyr and Asgard...and sold them all and kept (2) O2 amps and (2) ODACs...
   
  I drive my LCD2's very nicely and am totally satisfied...
   
  World class performance on a beer budget...
   
  Alex


----------



## kothganesh

Quote: 





argo duck said:


> ^ are you sure you need loads of power? This is not an HE-6.
> 
> 'LCD2 is easy to drive' is one point many agree on.
> Case in point - I have several amps ranging from 500mW (driven from a 2Vrms source) to 4W (Lyr).
> ...


 
  That's the beauty of this thread. I have the Lyr and the Burson Soloist. Amazing amps both for the LCD 2.


----------



## adydula

Yup...many flavors and tastes for all....
   
  The Asgard and the Lyr drove the LCD2's I have with out any issues....after months of use with each and within a few weeks with the O2 amps I decided for "me" that
  the sound with the o2 amp was indeed very close to what the source was in accuracty, tonality etc..it is to "me' totally transparent, allows me to hear what the LCD2's really can do
  with well recorded and mastered audio....I got tired of chasing the elusive amp, tube, combinations that provide audio nirvana.
   
  Having an amp that is designed to be basically a straight wire with gain, be totally quiet etc is the way to go vs chasing a 'sound' that can change from song to song, album to album etc..
   
  All the best
  Alex


----------



## nam3less

I'm not sure if the LCD-2 need gobs of power so that's why I asked. 
   
  Your responses are much appreciated. Thank you for the information. I will stick to a beer budget and leave my wallet room to buy actual micro brews to drink while listening. Thanks again!


----------



## adydula

and this way....your not out mega-bucks.....
   
  Alex


----------



## PhaedraCorruption

Has anyone had the chance to try both the new Taboo and the Bryston together? Or the Soloist and the Bryston for that matter.


----------



## Argo Duck

Other than the review unit sent to Frank I, no head-fiers have received the brand-new Taboo III yet.

So that's a no on the Taboo and Bryston.

Not sure any of those waiting on the III run SS as well. I do, but I own the II and have no plans to 'upgrade' ATM.


----------



## cssarrow

Anyone got a good balanced amp to recommend for the LCD-2?
   
  I'm willing to spend under $1000.
   
*Tim*


----------



## OICWUTUDIDTHAR

Lyr+Bifrost or Asgard 2+Bifrost?


----------



## kothganesh

Quote: 





oicwutudidthar said:


> Lyr+Bifrost or Asgard 2+Bifrost?


 
  Yes, would recommend the Burson Soloist (as an end-game amp for under a grand)


----------



## cssarrow

Thanks.
   
  I'll check out the Burson Solist, heard about it quite a lot.
  It's not balanced though, so that's a small turn off.
   
  Already have a LYR with Amperex E288CC and Mullards CV2492.
   
*Tim*


----------



## AManAnd88Keys

Quote: 





cssarrow said:


> Anyone got a good balanced amp to recommend for the LCD-2?
> 
> I'm willing to spend under $1000.
> 
> *Tim*


 

 Violectric V 181 ! Right now there is one on sale in the sales forum:
   
http://www.head-fi.org/t/645459/violectric-hpa-v-181-like-new-bargain
   
  The Mjolnir is supposedly a very nice balanced amp too, but with a different character.


----------



## cssarrow

Quote: 





amanand88keys said:


> Violectric V 181 ! Right now there is one on sale in the sales forum:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/645459/violectric-hpa-v-181-like-new-bargain
> 
> The Mjolnir is supposedly a very nice balanced amp too, but with a different character.


 
  ooo!
   
  Now you got me thinking about the Mjolnir again.
  That Vioelectric V 181 is pretty small.
  Makes me question it's internals.
   
*Tim*


----------



## AManAnd88Keys

The V181 is the balanced brother of the V200. It is, according to both reviews and the maker of the amp, at least equal or superior to the V200 if you use the balanced output.


----------



## Kendoji

I believe the V181 is the balanced version of the V100.  Violectric have talked about also creating a balanced brother of the V200, but their plans for new Violectric amps were delayed (as they were focusing on the new Lake People lineup).  Of course, this doesn't mean that the V200 is necessarily better sonically than the V181 running balanced.


----------



## AManAnd88Keys

Quote: 





kendoji said:


> I believe the V181 is the balanced version of the V100.  Violectric have talked about also creating a balanced brother of the V200, but their plans for new Violectric amps were delayed (as they were focusing on the new Lake People lineup).  Of course, this doesn't mean that the V200 is necessarily better sonically than the V181 running balanced.


 

 That's right. With "brother" I mean that both are Violectrics flagship amps at the moment.


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





cssarrow said:


> ooo!
> 
> Now you got me thinking about the Mjolnir again.
> That Vioelectric V 181 is pretty small.
> ...


 
   
   
  Mjolnir 
   
  Check my sig


----------



## commtrd

The Mjolnir amp I have rocks the LCD2.2's just fine thank you very much!


----------



## cssarrow

preproman said:


> Mjolnir
> 
> Check my sig




 can't see the sig on mobile device, boo hoo!
Still hate you for having an LCD-3!
Haha.



commtrd said:


> The Mjolnir amp I have rocks the LCD2.2's just fine thank you very much!




Man really looks like im going for the mjolnir.
Think the gungnir is a good dac to pair with it?

What do you use?


----------



## commtrd

DAC is the Gungnir. Very happy with the amp, dac, and cans as a system. The dell computer I am using as storage media not so much. Definitely the weak link in my system and not sure what to do about that. Ripping cd's with JRiver and using USB to the dac I have it "jumping" for lack of a better description and then resumes play which is aggravating in the extreme. Worse when playing from internal cd/DVD optical drive. But when it is playing clean sounds awesome.


----------



## cssarrow

Quote: 





preproman said:


> Mjolnir
> 
> Check my sig


 
  Out of all your amps :Balanced βeta-22 / Balanced M^3 / First Watt F1J / GS-X mk2
   
  Which do you prefer more?
  I was thinking of either the GS-X mk2 or the Mjolnir.
   
*Tim*


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





cssarrow said:


> Out of all your amps :Balanced βeta-22 / Balanced M^3 / First Watt F1J / GS-X mk2
> 
> Which do you prefer more?
> I was thinking of either the GS-X mk2 or the Mjolnir.
> ...


 
   
  I use to own the BHA-1 and I had the Mjolnir at home for a while.  Sold the BHA-1 but still like it with any LCD.  Same with the Mjolnir, really liked it with any LCDs.  Problem was IMO they didn't sound good with any other headphones.
   
  The M^3 is now the bedroom rig where the CK use to be.
   
  I like the GS-X mk and the B22 equally.  The F1J is a speaker amp that works great with the HE-6.


----------



## cssarrow

Quote: 





preproman said:


> I use to own the BHA-1 and I had the Mjolnir at home for a while.  Sold the BHA-1 but still like it with any LCD.  Same with the Mjolnir, really liked it with any LCDs.  Problem was IMO they didn't sound good with any other headphones.
> 
> The M^3 is now the bedroom rig where the CK use to be.
> 
> I like the GS-X mk and the B22 equally.  The F1J is a speaker amp that works great with the HE-6.


 
  Ah, so you're saying the BHA-1 & Mjolnir only sounds good with the LCD's?
  Not even with HE-500 or HE-6?
   
  Would you say that the GS-X mk2 sounds better than the Mjolnir?
   
  I'm mainly just going to use it with LCD-2 Rev. 2's, then upgrade to LCD-3's later on.
  Maybe that's a good choice?
   
  If the GS-X is better and works well with other headphones, that seems like a better choice.
  Since you know more than me, i take your input for granted.


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





cssarrow said:


> Ah, so you're saying the BHA-1 & Mjolnir only sounds good with the LCD's?
> YES - Only IMO
> 
> Not even with HE-500 or HE-6?
> ...


----------



## cssarrow

Thanks.
  It's decided, i'm going to get the HeadAmp GS-X mk2,
   
  Time to save up some more..
   
*Tim*


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





cssarrow said:


> Thanks.
> It's decided, i'm going to get the HeadAmp GS-X mk2,
> 
> Time to save up some more..
> ...


 
   
  Yeah but the Mjolnir is ready to purchase now.  The GS-X mk2 won't be ready until summer time at best.  Also The Schiit Statement amp is coming out as well.


----------



## Man7rah

Quote: 





preproman said:


> Yeah but the Mjolnir is ready to purchase now.  The GS-X mk2 won't be ready until summer time at best.  Also The Schiit Statement amp is coming out as well.


 
  HoldupHoldupHoldupHoldupHoldup!! Tell me more about this Schiit statement amp or at least refer me to a thread about it ^^


----------



## cssarrow

Yes, i'm very curious about this Statement Amp as well.


----------



## paradoxper

I'd recommend getting the Mjolnir as a tide me over. Schiit statement.


----------



## LionTamer

Quote: 





phaedracorruption said:


> Has anyone had the chance to try both the new Taboo and the Bryston together? Or the Soloist and the Bryston for that matter.


 
  I haven't heard the Taboo at all, but have heard both the Soloist and Bryston, though in different circumstances.  What I did is hear both of them shortly after hearing a Woo WA22.
   
  I heard the Soloist and WA22 at RMAF with LCD-3's - and thought that both sounded excellent, though different - the Woo being more dynamic and full of the texture/coloufullness (not "colored sound") of live music, and the Soloist being a bit more focused on the nuance of inner detail.  Both excellent, and while I personally prefer the Woo's presentation, I can see somebody liking either presentation - it's a matter of personal choice.  FWIW...the Dac's were the DAC portion of the Conductor being outputted to the Soloist (which didn't sound as good as the Conductor on its own), and the Woo DAC, which are likely comparable performance-wise.
   
  When I heard the Bryston at the Montreal show right before hearing the Woo WA6SE and WA22 (they were conveniently located across the hall from each other), there was no comparison - the Woo's were better on every level IMHO.  I was able to listen to the same exact tracks on the 2, which took out a potential variable.  Of course, part of that might be a preference for the Woo DAC over the Bryston - but the Woo DAC is less than half the price of the Bryston.  Once again, I listened to these with LCD-3's, which are similar but not identical in amp requirements to the LCD-2.
   
  So...by deduction/calculation...you can say that I much prefer the Soloist to the Bryston.  As a bonus, it's cheaper too - in fact, an absolute bargain IMHO.


----------



## Dubstep Girl

so the conductor sounds better than soloist?


----------



## longbowbbs

Quote: 





dubstep girl said:


> so the conductor sounds better than soloist?


 
  I thought the Conductor was a Soloist with a DAC inside....


----------



## Maxvla

liontamer said:


> So...by deduction/calculation...you can say that I much prefer the Soloist to the Bryston.  As a bonus, it's cheaper too - in fact, an absolute bargain IMHO.



Transitive properties don't work in audio gear chains.


----------



## commtrd

The Mjolnir amp is quite the synergistic match for the LCD's. I think one would have to be remiss not to at least consider the Mjolnir amp with the Audeze phones. I find it very hard to believe that this amp would not drive other cans just as well; however never having personally tried any others I cannot speak to that. The problem is you start to get into massive subjectivity on every little point and no one will hear everything exactly the same as someone else will.
   
  BTW I was able to tweak some settings on JRiver and got it to quit skipping out almost 100% so that is really nice. I can say this rig is starting to sound so awesome it is almost unbelievable to me. I would really like to hear some other phones on this system to see just how they would sound as the amp certainly has adequate power and cleanliness to drive almost anything except maybe the Stax lineup?


----------



## Dubstep Girl

Quote: 





longbowbbs said:


> I thought the Conductor was a Soloist with a DAC inside....


 
   
  ikr, thats what im trying to figure out


----------



## negura

Quote: 





dubstep girl said:


> ikr, thats what im trying to figure out


 
   
  Interconnects?


----------



## LionTamer

dubstep girl said:


> so the conductor sounds better than soloist?




That's hard to say. Either the Conductor's amp section is in fact different from the Soloist's, or the interconnect added to the chain significantly detracted from the sound. Generally, a longer signal chain with the same basic hardware doesn't sound as good.

It was a pretty clear difference...so one of the 2 possibilities has to be the case. I (and the Burson guy) was surprised by the difference - but the Burson guy was a corporate guy, not an audio guy, so his surprise was that reality wasn't bearing out the corporate line he was supposed to be toeing...


----------



## Dubstep Girl

i doubt a cable would make that noticeable of a difference (it might though), the conductor is probably just a slightly better amp, won't know for sure until someone verifys with burson.


----------



## LionTamer

Agreed that the Conductor is likely a bit better than the Soloist as an amp, but I have heard pretty significant differences in the past due to cables, power cords, power conditioners etc, so I don't have enough data to conclusively state that I prefer the Conductor to the Soloist. But it would be surprising to me if that weren't be case - the more authoritative sound of the Conductor certainly sounded like a better amp.


----------



## negura

Quote: 





liontamer said:


> Agreed that the Conductor is likely a bit better than the Soloist as an amp, but I have heard pretty significant differences in the past due to cables, power cords, power conditioners etc, so I don't have enough data to conclusively state that I prefer the Conductor to the Soloist. But it would be surprising to me if that weren't be case - the more authoritative sound of the Conductor certainly sounded like a better amp.


 
   
  That is so very interesting, but it's not the first time that I am hearing that the Conductor is actually better than the supposed sum of its parts: http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/burson10/4.html
   
  To Quote:
To recap, the Conductor's fullest excellence manifests when all functions are tapped simultaneously. As fixed-gain DAC it's directly competitive with the far costlier Eximus but not better. Ditto as preamp. It's once you enter as digital and exit on 6.3mm that this equality (which isn't sameness just to be sure!) morphs into superiority. That's a real achievement and how the Conductor ought to be used.
   
  It so happens that I own one and I've sort of assumed the amp is exactly the Soloist, which I've never heard on its own, but what I can attest is that as a whole it's absolutely brilliant with all that I've thrown at it, from HD650, to LCD-2 and HD800. The only downside are the Tenor USB bugs.


----------



## LionTamer

That opinion (much better written than mine!) matches exactly my experience with the Conductor. Its good to see that others have noticed it too! Perhaps there are some parts upgraded in the more $$ Conductor vs the Soloist? Perhaps it's just biased better?


----------



## negura

Quote: 





liontamer said:


> That opinion (much better written than mine!) matches exactly my experience with the Conductor. Its good to see that others have noticed it too! Perhaps there are some parts upgraded in the more $$ Conductor vs the Soloist? Perhaps it's just biased better?


 
   
  Glad to hear more on these lines.
  I am still surprised that the Conductor is a bit underrated around here, while the Soloist is clearly highly praised. According to the reviewer and he is not the only one saying that, it (more than) stands-up to much more expensive high-end competition.
   
  In terms of value it should be more of a no-brainer for most high-end headphones, including the LCD-2s, but that's just IMHO.


----------



## jackwess

Quote: 





negura said:


> It so happens that I own one and I've sort of assumed the amp is exactly the Soloist, which I've never heard on its own, but what I can attest is that as a whole it's absolutely brilliant with all that I've thrown at it, from HD650, to LCD-2 and HD800. The only downside are the Tenor USB bugs.


 
   
  Yep, there seems to have some issues with tenor usb. Not surprised why some companies are not using certain tenor chips, but team burson is always working hard to give a solution to problems. (some driver updates are on the way according to some guys on the conductor thread) hopefully that helps.


----------



## Dubstep Girl

Quote: 





negura said:


> Glad to hear more on these lines.
> I am still surprised that the Conductor is a bit underrated around here, while the Soloist is clearly highly praised. According to the reviewer and he is not the only one saying that, it (more than) stands-up to much more expensive high-end competition.
> 
> In terms of value it should be more of a no-brainer for most high-end headphones, including the LCD-2s, but that's just IMHO.


 
   
  probably just the cost, and most ppl would rather buy separate amp/dac, or a soloist and a different dac.


----------



## Landmantx

Yes, I considered all in one units like the WA7 and Pan Am, but in the end, I felt that it is too restrictive. If you decide to sell it for whatever reason, you are out both your amp and your Dac. I like the flexibility of having everything seperate personally. That way you can target each peice for upgrade as required.


----------



## Dubstep Girl

i just dont like amp/dac combos cause usually either one or the other will not be as good. either a good dac with a cheap amp or a good amp with a cheap dac built into it.


----------



## kothganesh

Quote: 





dubstep girl said:


> probably just the cost, and most ppl would rather buy separate amp/dac, or a soloist and a different dac.


 
  I concur. I already had the Bifrost hence I just got the Solo. In the absence of a DAC, I would have probably got the Conductor.


----------



## levinhatz

Hi there,
   
  I'm looking into upgrading to the LCD-2 from my current Grado rig. My music is mostly rock. Though I acknowledge that the LCD-2 is all around a better headphone, I definitely love the energy in the mids that my Grados bring and I want to sacrifice as little as possible of that when I upgrade. What do you think the best amp choice would be, given that criteria? 
   
  So far I have been able to test a few different amps, and I think the best I've tried is the Schiit Mjolnir. Has anybody tried anything that they would consider to be a better choice? Especially when it comes to bringing out the mids and maximizing the energy & fun factor. This thread has a lot of positive reactions to Burson gear, but how does it stack up against the Schiit?
   
  Thanks,
  E


----------



## kothganesh

Quote: 





levinhatz said:


> Hi there,
> 
> I'm looking into upgrading to the LCD-2 from my current Grado rig. My music is mostly rock. Though I acknowledge that the LCD-2 is all around a better headphone, I definitely love the energy in the mids that my Grados bring and I want to sacrifice as little as possible of that when I upgrade. What do you think the best amp choice would be, given that criteria?
> 
> ...


 
  For what its worth, I have my LCD 2.2 hooked up to the Lyr and alternate the amp with the Burson Soloist. Fantastic amps both with plenty of headroom for the LCDs. The Mjolinir is a balanced amp and unfortunately I have had no experience with balanced anything. That will change soon, though.


----------



## levinhatz

Thanks for the tip about the Soloist. I'll check it out at the LA regional summer meet in July. I did get a chance to try a different Burson (I think it was the HA160) with a different set of orthos, and I remember it having a warm, fairly pleasing sound.
   
  Nobody can think of an amp to topple the mighty Mjolnir?


----------



## zilch0md

Quote: 





kothganesh said:


> For what its worth, I have my LCD 2.2 hooked up to the Lyr and alternate the amp with the Burson Soloist. Fantastic amps both with plenty of headroom for the LCDs. The Mjolinir is a balanced amp and unfortunately I have had no experience with balanced anything. That will change soon, though.


 
   
  Hi Kothganesh,
   
  When do you reach for the Lyr instead of the Soloist (for use with the LCD-2)?  What traits does the Lyr offer that the Soloist lacks?
   
  Thanks,
   
  Mike


----------



## kothganesh

Quote: 





zilch0md said:


> Hi Kothganesh,
> 
> When do you reach for the Lyr instead of the Soloist (for use with the LCD-2)?  What traits does the Lyr offer that the Soloist lacks?
> 
> ...


 
  Hello Mike:
   
  Great question. I will try to keep this simple - I use the Lyr when I want a little warmer sound and occasional bouts of trying to listen at a higher volume. The Lyr really opens up at higher settings of the volume knob. But these bouts of insanity are few and far between. IMHO, the Lyr and the Soloist are pretty close with the latter leaning slightly more to a neutral sound.
   
  Hope this answers your question.
   
  Koth


----------



## zilch0md

Thanks Koth!


----------



## Argo Duck

I've never heard the Soloist but +1 to Koth's impressions - they could apply to Lyr versus Meier Classic, for example.

Stock (e.g. JJ E88CC tubes) Lyr could sound syrupy. Siemens 6DJ8 made it neutral, almost cold. Matsu' 6922 were kind of eye-opening: off neutral (emphasized, tuneful, textured bass) yet not warm or syrupy. I never tried uber-expensive 'top pick' tubes, as I went in a different direction. But it's definitely an amp that responds to tube-rolling, and personally I found it excelled with rock and blues guitar: just that slightly thicker, harmonically denser string sound.

I can't say I found it the most resolving amp - but (as noted) I never tried the best tubes either, so I can't say this is inherent in the design or execution.


----------



## DeadEars

Quote: 





levinhatz said:


> Hi there,
> 
> I'm looking into upgrading to the LCD-2 from my current Grado rig. My music is mostly rock. Though I acknowledge that the LCD-2 is all around a better headphone, I definitely love the energy in the mids that my Grados bring and I want to sacrifice as little as possible of that when I upgrade. What do you think the best amp choice would be, given that criteria?
> 
> ...


 

 FWIW, it is very hard to get an LCD to rock like Grados do.  They do almost everything ELSE better than Grados (except they also weigh a ton).  Rather than upgrade, you might want to do both!  The LCD-2's have a somewhat laid-back character, so even though the bass is stronger and cleaner and deeper, Grado's just do a better job of delivering the rage of Metallica or the ennui of Arcade Fire, IMHO.  I'm just sayin...
   
  To really do rock, you'll want a lot of juice.  Rocking the LCD-2's is pretty good with the Bryston BHA-1's which have complementary strengths (i.e. they're bright-ish to offset the LCD-2 dark-ishness).  As above, I think the LCD-2's rock pretty well with the Lyr, altho I don't like the stock tubes so much.  Amperex 6922's (orange globes/frame grid) worked well.  But I still don't see them out-rocking the damn Grado's.  Just something that the Grado's do better than practically anyone else.  Again IMHO.  If that's your major venue, be careful that your upgrade really is one!


----------



## Monir

It might not be as popular as the famous Lyr/160/V200 combination. But after some intense listening I'd like to recommend the Yulong Sabre A18. I've used Burson 160, Violectric V200, but not the Schiit Lyr (Only the V200 of those were paired with the LCD-2), and I definately think that the A18 sticks out by quite a great margin.
   
  Going directly from the V200 to the A18 was a great decision IMO. They both share the same analogue warm signature with a wonderfully detailed bass, but to my ears it felt that the A18 was a little more lush and was a bit more spacious than the V200. Some have said that there's a noise floor with very sensitive in-ears, but with the LCD-2 the A18 is dead silent even at max volume. I quite like the thick and lush sound that the A18 provides, and I definately can sense a slight bump in soundstage as well. To me, it's not the intimate character of the V200, but a more natural and smooth variant. There's still a lot of detail, and the sound just seems more open while still retaining its lushness and body.


----------



## ListeningAura

So I am going to be getting the LCD-2s as a direct upgrade to my HD650s (Which I LOVE) . My budget is around $1000 for an amp (+ 300 dollars when some old headphones have sold)  and I don't have a DAC. I was considering the Burson Soloist or the WA7. I know the Pan Am, which is a lot cheaper, is also very good aswell. I listen to mainly symphonic metal (Nightwish etc.), Classical, Opera, and rarely pop. The source would be my computer w/ Foobar and a library of lossless files. From there, would the Bifrost be a good pair with the Soloist or Wa7 as a DAC?


----------



## levinhatz

Quote: 





deadears said:


> FWIW, it is very hard to get an LCD to rock like Grados do.  They do almost everything ELSE better than Grados (except they also weigh a ton).  Rather than upgrade, you might want to do both!  The LCD-2's have a somewhat laid-back character, so even though the bass is stronger and cleaner and deeper, Grado's just do a better job of delivering the rage of Metallica or the ennui of Arcade Fire, IMHO.  I'm just sayin...


 
   
  I've actually considered keeping the Grados, as I'd probably still use them after getting the LCDs if I kept em. I realize that the LCDs are inherently laid back, and I guess it's my nature to want them to be both aggressive and laid back at the same time. Probably impossible.


----------



## Argo Duck

Well...I almost never use my Grado RS1 since getting the LCD2. And although I listen to a broad range of music, I do like to rock out sometimes.

Don't get the "laid-back" comment wrong - DeadEars said "_somewhat_ laid-back character". The LCDs do so many things differently - a lot of extra information for one thing - that if indeed they are 'laid-back', you may find they compensate in other ways.

And of course it depends what the rest of your chain is doing.

*ListeningAura*, I don't know any of the amps you list, but the Bifrost is pretty good - very *slightly* on the bright or lean, revealing side of neutral. The fact it's just had its output stage revised (upgrade option too) - based on the Gungnir - may make it even more of a bargain its price. Why don't you truck on over to the Schiit dacs thread started by Herokid and use 'search this thread' or ask if anyone has the combinations you're thinking about?


----------



## Monir

Quote: 





listeningaura said:


> So I am going to be getting the LCD-2s as a direct upgrade to my HD650s (Which I LOVE) . My budget is around $1000 for an amp (+ 300 dollars when some old headphones have sold)  and I don't have a DAC. I was considering the Burson Soloist or the WA7. I know the Pan Am, which is a lot cheaper, is also very good aswell. I listen to mainly symphonic metal (Nightwish etc.), Classical, Opera, and rarely pop. The source would be my computer w/ Foobar and a library of lossless files. From there, would the Bifrost be a good pair with the Soloist or Wa7 as a DAC?


 
   
  I can't answer the amplifier question, but regarding the DAC you should be fine. The Bifrost as well as the D100 work well with almost any amplifier IMO as they're not overly bright or overly warm but neutral. DACs aren't something to worry about unless we're talking about those with obvious sound colourations like Rega DAC or Yulong D18 or maybe the Audio-gd DACs.
   
  If you love the HD650, like I do, then you'll most likely adore the LCD-2. When I sat comparing the two I found that the sound of the HD650 was almost paper thin in comparison to the LCD-2s thicker and more lifelike sound.
   
  Sure, you could say that it's a bit more laid-back. But to my ears it's natural and and gives vocal tracks more life. I also found its bass very enjoyable with electronic music.


----------



## Landmantx

T





listeningaura said:


> So I am going to be getting the LCD-2s as a direct upgrade to my HD650s (Which I LOVE) . My budget is around $1000 for an amp (+ 300 dollars when some old headphones have sold)  and I don't have a DAC. I was considering the Burson Soloist or the WA7. I know the Pan Am, which is a lot cheaper, is also very good aswell. I listen to mainly symphonic metal (Nightwish etc.), Classical, Opera, and rarely pop. The source would be my computer w/ Foobar and a library of lossless files. From there, would the Bifrost be a good pair with the Soloist or Wa7 as a DAC?




There is a used Decware Taboo for sale. That would be a great option.


----------



## DefQon

I'm using a 80's Marantz PM-32 integrated amp with bass/treble dials and a headphone out port. imho sounds better than when I had the LCD2's with all the Bursons, Violectrics and few other FOTM amp's. If you want to go to tube route, the LD MK VI+ is very very good for it's price, sounds above the Woo's and is a good high end amp before you make it into summit-fi category with the $2k+ amp's such as the Stratus, BA, DZ etc.


----------



## formula1

Quote: 





listeningaura said:


> So I am going to be getting the LCD-2s as a direct upgrade to my HD650s (Which I LOVE) . My budget is around $1000 for an amp (+ 300 dollars when some old headphones have sold)  and I don't have a DAC. I was considering the Burson Soloist or the WA7. I know the Pan Am, which is a lot cheaper, is also very good aswell. I listen to mainly symphonic metal (Nightwish etc.), Classical, Opera, and rarely pop. The source would be my computer w/ Foobar and a library of lossless files. From there, would the Bifrost be a good pair with the Soloist or Wa7 as a DAC?


 
   
  Prior to the Burson, i've listened to some german amps (Lehman audio and V200) preferred the Burson by a small margin and i never regret it. 
   
  Soloist is more refined sounding with good bass extension.
   
  In my case i wanted a Dac and went for the conductor.


----------



## kothganesh

To ListeningAura:
My DAC is the Bifrost (I will be sending it for the upgrade soon) and depending on my mood, I use the Lyr or the Soloist as the amp. The Bifrost/Soloist is an excellent combination with the combo giving you a full, neutral sound with good bass extension. Sometimes I EQ it a bit to give me a slightly darker sound but that's another can of worms I do not want to open for this thread.


----------



## levinhatz

Quote: 





argo duck said:


> Don't get the "laid-back" comment wrong - DeadEars said "_somewhat_ laid-back character". The LCDs do so many things differently - a lot of extra information for one thing - that if indeed they are 'laid-back', you may find they compensate in other ways.


 
   
  I don't think I'm getting the comment wrong - from my experience the LCD-2 is a somewhat laid back headphone. Of course it's all relative, and my ears are accustomed to getting pounded by Grados.


----------



## DemonFox

Two questions for you guys:
   
  Have any of you used the LCD 2.2 with either the 15.32 or 11.32 from Audio-GD. 
   
  Is there a portable amp that has eq controls (not the Arrow I already have one) and enough power to push to Orthos cleanly? All for under or around $400 new or used doesn't matter. 
   
  Recently pick up some LCD's from Justin at headamp and right now my amp situation isn't bad but I definitely want to upgrade. Right now I have an Arrow 3G which sounded amazing but very congested and the Fournier HTA-2 which is absolutely amazing. Bought it at random off of eBay to use with my HD650's and so far with limited use I love it. Opens up the sound on the 650's and gives them a clean wide sound and they don't sound anywhere near as dark as usual. The Arrow pretty much keeps the sound the same but has a God like Bass switch that can turn almost any can into bass monsters. It actually powers the LCD's easier than the HD650's but can get a bit lose at higher volumes. So I'm looking for something with a little more composure at higher volumes, less sound congestion with solid eq features. 
   
  Not trying to break the bank here but I do want a quality piece of hardware that can be used in different setting with different cans. 
   
   
   
  Thanks,
   
   





   
  Edit: A built in DAC would be an added plus. All I have in ways of a DAC is a HIFImeDIY little Sabre USB DAC 24/96


----------



## nigeljames

Laid back is such comfusing term when it comes to headphones.
   
  An headphone can be laid back due to many reasons but only one applies to the LCD2's and that's it's treble response.
  It has good PRaT, great presence, non recessed midrange and it's fast, detailed, lively and energetic.
   
  So the only aspect that can be considered laid back is it's treble due to being slightly more recessed than most other phones.


----------



## DefQon

If it's warm and dark sounding it is laid sounding. Usually laid back just means the whole sound sounds really shelved, really distant by its treble.


----------



## nigeljames

Quote: 





defqon said:


> If it's warm and dark sounding it is laid sounding. Usually laid back just means the whole sound sounds really shelved, really distant by its treble.


 
   
  Personally 'laid back' is not a term I would use to describe the LCD2.2's that I own.


----------



## citraian

Laid back for me is a term that describes the sound layout and is opposed to in your face sound. Everything is pushed back some meters, more distant.


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





citraian said:


> Laid back for me is a term that describes the sound layout and is opposed to in your face sound. Everything is pushed back some meters, more distant.


 
  Yep and all LCD2's have a pretty laid back sound sig, some call it neutral, I call it laid back as I've heard all the rev.1, rev.2 except the newer bamboo rev.2's but I really doubt much has been changed as it will still have that Audeze house sound.


----------



## nigeljames

The presence & impact of the LCD's is one of the things I like best about them. The sound is closer and more 'in your face' than the HE6's, HD800's or my T1's.
   
  So laid back they are not, at least in my system. I have even heard people compare them to Grados which as we know have the most 'in your face' sound of any headphone.


----------



## DefQon

By more in your face, you're referring to soundstage? These don't have a very big soundstage but the sound is quite intimate.


----------



## nigeljames

Quote: 





defqon said:


> By more in your face, you're referring to soundstage? These don't have a very big soundstage but the sound is quite intimate.


 
   
  I have thought that myself but I don't think that is the case.
   
  I find the LCD's give me more of the on stage presence than any other of my headphones but it still has good depth, plenty of background sounds come from further away and are pretty wide sounding with very good channel seperation as well.
  Obviously I am not talking HD800 width/depth here but definitely more then they are normally given credit for.
  However I do use an upgraded cable, previously TWAG2 and now Toxic Silver Widow, so that might have an effect on what I am hearing.
   
  I feel that it's impossible to call the LCD's 'laid back' when they have excellent attack & punch and an on stage presence which is the opposite of what Citraian feels gives the laid back sound.
  IMO only the treble can be considered laid back.


----------



## Argo Duck

*nigeljames*, agree with all your points. I guess the definition of 'laid-back' is under debate (btw, is it being equated with 'sitting back' as in 'back row'?).

For example, when I did a DACs comparison (read "subtle differences"), my LCD2.1 were the most revealing of the phones on hand (Stax Lambda Pro, Beyer T1, Grado RS1 were the others). Lots of information and resolving power, attack and speed with amps that delivered it, and so on.

An interesting difference between DACs was that Bifrost and Eastern Electric MiniMax sounded distant with much material; Stagedac (and Beresford Bushmaster since then) up-close. (Obviously, with my particular equipment chains at that time, with my ears/brain at that time, IMO, YMMV etc).

So whilst 'laid-back' and 'LCD2' might overlap to some degree, I don't find the LCD2 the _essence_ of laid-back. In fact, not a term that has ever been first to mind - despite the other phones in my collection.

Meh, whatever. We're in murky waters anyway, as most of us have formed our descriptive palette and experiential associations individually, not through shared experience. The chances we mean the same things by the common terms we use aren't actually that good.


----------



## Dubstep Girl

Quote: 





nigeljames said:


> The presence & impact of the LCD's is one of the things I like best about them. The sound is closer and more 'in your face' than the HE6's, HD800's or my T1's.
> 
> So laid back they are not, at least in my system. I have even heard people compare them to Grados which as we know have the most 'in your face' sound of any headphone.


 
   
  +1
   
  i wouldn't call them laid back either, at least not like the HD 650s (the LCD-2 have more of an attack/aggressiveness somewhere in the sound, though they're still smooth, hard to explain).


----------



## Monir

I also think that the intimate character depends on amplifier as well. With my V200 they felt more intimate than with my Sabre A18, and I can imagine some tube amps would make it sound different as well.


----------



## cangle

So I've decided to purchase the LCD-2 and at the moment I am deciding between three amplifiers: Woo Audio WA7, ALO audio pan am with passport, and the schist lyr and schiit bifrost combo. I have a maximum budget of $1000 for both the amp and the dac and would prefer a 2 in 1 unit. Which one should I choose and do you guys have any other recommendations? If it helps, I mainly listen to jazz and occasionally some club/house music.


----------



## Dubstep Girl

i'd get the WA7 just cause of the more power and better looks/build quality over the pan am/passport stack.
   
  the Schiit stack is another great option though, and lots of tube rolling.


----------



## kothganesh

Quote: 





argo duck said:


> *......*
> 
> An interesting difference between DACs was that Bifrost and Eastern Electric MiniMax sounded distant with much material; Stagedac (and Beresford Bushmaster since then) up-close. (Obviously, with my particular equipment chains at that time, with my ears/brain at that time, IMO, YMMV etc).
> 
> ........


 
  AiDee,
   
  you've just nailed what I have been trying to come to terms to with the Bifrost. I was always puzzled as to why the LCD 2.2 sounded a little more distant and I was trying to compensate by cranking up the volume.
   
  Thanks


----------



## Argo Duck

^ 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  (Of course there's lots of other variables too, as you know!)


----------



## kothganesh

yep, like the source material. I know for a fact that some recordings (regardless of lossless) are just abysmal.


----------



## solserenade

Quote: 





demonfox said:


> Two questions for you guys:
> 
> 
> *Is there a portable amp that has eq controls (not the Arrow I already have one) and enough power to push to Orthos cleanly? All for under or around $400 new or used doesn't matter. *
> ...


 
   
   
  The only portable I know of (and have) with EQ is the Fiio E17. Whether you think it drives the phones well is up to you.


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





argo duck said:


> For example, when I did a DACs comparison (read "subtle differences"), my LCD2.1 were the most revealing of the phones on hand (*Stax Lambda Pro*, Beyer T1, Grado RS1 were the others). Lots of information and resolving power, attack and speed with amps that delivered it, and so on.


 
  You must've had a faulty or underpowered Lambda Pro because I can tell you and anybody else who own both the LCD2 and the LP, the LCD2's don't touch the LP in terms of detail retrieval, dynamics and soundstaging at all. It's such a gap I'm actually laughing at you've just said. I own both and the only compartment the LP loses to the LCD2 is the low-end.


----------



## zilch0md

Hi ListeningAura,
  Quote: 





listeningaura said:


> So I am going to be getting the LCD-2s as a direct upgrade to my HD650s (Which I LOVE) . My budget is around $1000 for an amp (+ 300 dollars when some old headphones have sold)  and I don't have a DAC. I was considering the Burson Soloist or the WA7. I know the Pan Am, which is a lot cheaper, is also very good aswell. I listen to mainly symphonic metal (Nightwish etc.), Classical, Opera, and rarely pop. The source would be my computer w/ Foobar and a library of lossless files. From there, would the Bifrost be a good pair with the Soloist or Wa7 as a DAC?


 
   
  I'm late in responding to this, but I feel compelled to point you to a post I made a couple of months ago in this thread...
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/495631/amp-recommendations-for-audeze-lcd-2/5490#post_9180000
   
  The DACmini CX doesn't have the curb appeal of something like the Burson Conductor, or a Bifrost + Soloist, but if you're after great sound, the DACmini CX is very much worthy of consideration for use with the LCD-2.  They're meant for each other.
   
  I've had the Soloist for several months, now, but after my initial infatuation wore off, I went back to using the DACmini CX with my LCD-2.  I no longer have any interest in using the Soloist with LCD-2.     (Soloist with T1?  Yes.)
   
  With the 1-Ohm output impedance mod, the DACmini CX is still in your price range.   You just have to ask yourself if your're trying to buy jewelry or sound (not that it's impossible to have both).  
   
  Mike


----------



## zilch0md

Quoting Stereophile's audio glossary:
   


> *row-A sound *     Sound which is up-front, forward.
> 
> *row-M sound *    Sound which is laid-back, distant.


 
   
  "Forward" and "laid back" are used to describe the sound stage - specifically, how close you are to the stage.  
   
  "Laid back" does not mean "mellow" or "chill," as in common parlance.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Using the Stereophile definitions, I would have to agree with those who say the LCD-2 is not laid-back.  It's very forward with all but binaural recordings, making me feel as if I'm right up on the stage with the performers.  The LCD-2's  "sound stage," imagined from overhead, is shaped like a bow-tie, and not a very big one at that.  It's mostly in your head - between the ears.  This headphone makes no apologies for not sounding like loudspeakers.  
   
  I love the superior sound stage of the Beyerdynamic T1, but if I had to spend the rest of my life with either the LCD-2 or T1, it's not a difficult decision for me at all - the LCD-2 wins.
   
  Mike


----------



## Argo Duck

*DefQon*, I really must congratulate you!! The weeks I spent carefully listening and re-listening to tracks (level-matched), then the hours documenting methodology, listening conditions, assumptions and their problems, and possible sources of cognitive bias and other unaccounted-for variance just got falsified by ... your laughter!

Really, very well done. Who would've thought that all it takes in audiophile (audiophool?) land to refute careful work is unthinking rhetorical counter-claim. Not even a question? Darn!

But thank you - your post was both instructive and amusing!

(Btw, per the principle outlined in my sig that's all I have to say on this matter).


----------



## Argo Duck

Mike, good move bringing in a documented point of reference. Cheers!


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





argo duck said:


> *DefQon*, I really must congratulate you!! The weeks I spent carefully listening and re-listening to tracks (level-matched), then the hours documenting methodology, listening conditions, assumptions and their problems, and possible sources of cognitive bias and other unaccounted-for variance just got falsified by ... your laughter!
> 
> Really, very well done. Who would've thought that all it takes in audiophile (audiophool?) land to refute careful work is unthinking rhetorical counter-claim. Not even a question? Darn!
> 
> ...


 
  I will say it again, the LCD2's don't touch the LP or any similar stat period. Bah I don't know what else to say. Can't tell if you're being serious or joking.


----------



## DemonFox

Quote: 





defqon said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  I'm sure he's done his homework and to him those were his findings. No reason for rudeness 
   
   
  Thanks,


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





demonfox said:


> I'm sure he's done his homework and to him those were his findings. No reason for rudeness
> 
> 
> Thanks,


 
  Doesn't sound like he did his homework properly. Thank you very much.


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





zilch0md said:


> Hi ListeningAura,
> 
> I'm late in responding to this, but I feel compelled to point you to a post I made a couple of months ago in this thread...
> 
> ...


 
  Mike,
   
  Tell me what you didn't like about the Soloist / LCD-2 combo.


----------



## zilch0md

Quote: 





preproman said:


> Mike,
> 
> Tell me what you didn't like about the Soloist / LCD-2 combo.


 
   
  Hey preopman,
   
  Well, I feel as if I'm about to hang myself, answering you, as I really admire all the experience you have with so many amps, but here goes...  
   
  For my ears and tastes, the Soloist + LCD-2 rev.1 sounds truly great until careful comparison to the DACmini CX with 1-Ohm output impedance.  (In both cases I'm using the DACmini's DAC section with USB input from Foobar 2000 + WASAPI event, playing WAV files from SD cards.)  
   
  Where the Soloist's treble is very smooth, amazingly so considering how much detail it manages to deliver, and quite "analog" sounding for a solid state amp (and thus, a "cure" for the too-bright-for-my-tastes Beyerdynamics T1), the slightly more detailed, somewhat edgier and brighter DACmini CX just makes a perfect match for the LCD-2's less than perfect resolving power and shelved highs.  I also find the DACmini CX to have just a bit more punch or slam (better dynamics) than the Soloist, when driving the LCD-2 rev.1.   For the LCD-2, I seriously cannot identify a single sonic trait where the Soloist outshines the DACmini CX with 1-Ohm output impedance.  Again, it's just my opinion, but I think they are a perfect match - with DAC and amp perfectly compensating the weaknesses and improving the strengths of the LCD-2.  If I had to quantify my preferences, I'd point out that I'm almost splitting hairs - the Soloist offers 98% of what the DACmini CX delivers with the LCD-2. 
   
  Keep in mind that I was really enchanted by the Soloist, on first getting it, but having listened to it almost exclusively for several weeks, going back to the DACmini CX was a real eye-opener. I didn't want to admit to myself that I was actually digging the sound of the less expensive, less prestigious amp.  Then began a long period of back and forth, over several more weeks, until finally, I threw in the towel, giving up on using the Soloist with the LCD-2.  I had just heard too many tracks that have more impact, more detail and texture, and more sparkle in the highs (not shelved at all, yet completely non-fatiguing) -- when using the DACmini CX with 1-Ohm mod + LCD-2 rev.1.
   
  All that said, without question, I consider the Soloist to be a better all-around amp (in terms of sonics) - for use with a lot of different headphones - than the DACmini CX with 1-Ohm mod.  The DACmini CX (1-Ohm) is borderline harsh with the Beyerdynamic T1, for example - too bright and a little too edgy.  In fact, even the Soloist could use a little more warmth for the T1.  I think the T1 needs some tube goodness somewhere along the chain, but I haven't gone there, yet.
   
  Mike


----------



## Dubstep Girl

WA2!


----------



## zilch0md

I hear you - WA2 + T1 seems to be a popular pairing.


----------



## dave1109

I've been thinking about trying a tube amp for my lcd 2's,
  any recommendations $1000 to $1500 price range, maybe a little more ?
  I've been looking at Decware and Woo amps, should I be looking
  at any thing else ?


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





dave1109 said:


> I've been thinking about trying a tube amp for my lcd 2's,
> any recommendations $1000 to $1500 price range, maybe a little more ?
> I've been looking at Decware and Woo amps, should I be looking
> at any thing else ?


 
  Little Dot MK VI+. Rest assured it's sound I would easily rate as comparable to amp's with in the $2.5k bracket. That's how good it is.


----------



## Monir

Quote: 





defqon said:


> Little Dot MK VI+. Rest assured it's sound I would easily rate as comparable to amp's with in the $2.5k bracket. That's how good it is.


 

 I've also been looking at the more expensive Little Dot models if I was to return to tubes. But it doesn't seem as popular of a choice as Woo Audio, so it's hard to find a lot of opinions about the VI+ pairing with LCD-2.
   
  What would you specify its tonal signature as? Do the most recent versions still have the humming/noise issue?


----------



## Dubstep Girl

WA6-SE pairs great with LCD-2. however, it takes some tube rolling to really open them up. (higher gain power tubes + the mighty 596 or GZ34 rectifier).


----------



## DefQon

monir said:


> I've also been looking at the more expensive Little Dot models if I was to return to tubes. But it doesn't seem as popular of a choice as Woo Audio, so it's hard to find a lot of opinions about the VI+ pairing with LCD-2.
> 
> What would you specify its tonal signature as? Do the most recent versions still have the humming/noise issue?


It's an unspoken gem. There is an appreciation thread for it. No hum whatsoever unless your tube is on its last legs. The tonal signature? It changes to whatever tubes you roll but it has authority to drive anything.

d I've compared mine to the higher end Woo's and the Woo's just don't compare unless its aesthetics and build quality.


----------



## AManAnd88Keys

Quote: 





dave1109 said:


> I've been thinking about trying a tube amp for my lcd 2's,
> any recommendations $1000 to $1500 price range, maybe a little more ?
> I've been looking at Decware and Woo amps, should I be looking
> at any thing else ?


 

 Maybe not a popular choice, but the RSA Raptor does a good job with the LCD-2.2s.


----------



## Man7rah

Quote: 





defqon said:


> Little Dot MK VI+. Rest assured it's sound I would easily rate as comparable to amp's with in the $2.5k bracket. That's how good it is.


 
  Putting it up against Leben and Cavalli offerings?


----------



## bfreedma

Quote: 





dubstep girl said:


> WA6-SE pairs great with LCD-2. however, it takes some tube rolling to really open them up. (higher gain power tubes + the mighty 596 or GZ34 rectifier).


 

 +1
   
  The 596 and a pair of 6EM7s haven't left my 6-SE in months.


----------



## Noobmachine

Just got a Fiio E12 today, and was thoroughly surprised after hooking my LCD-2s to it, the E12 puts out enough juice to run the LCD-2s at an impressive level! No distinct colouration that i can see, maybe a little more warmth in the mids but coming from a Pan Am it's actually a little less lush and warm than I'm used to. If anyone for some reason wants a portable amp to power the LCD-2s do consider the E12, it's about on par with the O2 at least, maybe just a little more mid colouration (warmth) as compared to the slightly more clean O2.


----------



## MattTCG

Interesting about the e12. It seems to be love hate with that amp. People seem to really like or just don't like it at all. It's voiced differently than most fiio products so maybe that's why it's so polarizing.


----------



## Dubstep Girl

Quote: 





bfreedma said:


> +1
> 
> The 596 and a pair of 6EM7s haven't left my 6-SE in months.


 
   
  nice headphones!


----------



## fabio-fi

Quote: 





noobmachine said:


> Just got a Fiio E12 today, and was thoroughly surprised after hooking my LCD-2s to it, the E12 puts out enough juice to run the LCD-2s at an impressive level! No distinct colouration that i can see, maybe a little more warmth in the mids but coming from a Pan Am it's actually a little less lush and warm than I'm used to. If anyone for some reason wants a portable amp to power the LCD-2s do consider the E12, it's about on par with the O2 at least, maybe just a little more mid colouration (warmth) as compared to the slightly more clean O2.


 
   
  We have a good contender for the O2 it seems. Would like to see how many guys try this combination.


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





man7rah said:


> Putting it up against Leben and Cavalli offerings?


 
  Those are another step ahead but the VI+ is no slouch and improvements are only subtle.


----------



## DemonFox

matttcg said:


> Interesting about the e12. It seems to be love hate with that amp. People seem to really like or just don't like it at all. It's voiced differently than most fiio products so maybe that's why it's so polarizing.




Yah it seems like the first patch that went out sounds different than the latest version. Very hit or miss but the concept is there and I love Fiio so it may be worth the risk... And by risk I mean they'll go straight back if I don't like them so not really a risk lol.

Has anyone tried the C&C amps BH or XO2 with the LCD's? I have an Arrow 3G that I think I may be wanting to sell or trade towards the purchase of the XO2 but was curious how they handle the likes of LCD's and HD650's


Thanks


----------



## DemonFox

dave1109 said:


> I've been thinking about trying a tube amp for my lcd 2's,
> 
> any recommendations $1000 to $1500 price range, maybe a little more ?
> I've been looking at Decware and Woo amps, should I be looking
> at any thing else ?




I wish I had more experience with the big dog amps but I'm not quite there yet... I did just pick up an EF5 from Hifiman and it's a great great pairing. Funny enough it's making my HD650's sound like beast right now! Mid level $399 amps, I don't know what else out there will beat that sucker


Thanks,


----------



## D2Cowones

Quote: 





dave1109 said:


> I've been thinking about trying a tube amp for my lcd 2's,
> any recommendations $1000 to $1500 price range, maybe a little more ?
> I've been looking at Decware and Woo amps, should I be looking
> at any thing else ?


 
  Icon Audio HP8 MKII, Signature edition version, wonderful pair with LCD-2
   
http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/icon-audio-hp8-mk2-tube-headphone-amplifier


----------



## vincentc

Quote: 





dubstep girl said:


> WA6-SE pairs great with LCD-2. however, it takes some tube rolling to really open them up. (higher gain power tubes + the mighty 596 or GZ34 rectifier).


 
  +1! 
   
  I have the ALO Pan Am (about $500) and the WA6-SE (about $1200). In terms of price to quality ratio I might have to admit that the Pan Am is amazing but I have been comparing them as much as possible (for me, young audiophile) and at the end of the day with the right tube pairing I got the WA6-SE to make wonders! Don't forget a good DAC (if you need).
  Regarding the tubes that I use with the WA6-SE I really enjoy the pairing of a Mullard CV378 (rectifier tube) and 6FD7.
  I hope that helped you to make a choice


----------



## preproman

Not a lot of Mjolnir / LCD-2 talk anymore - what happened?


----------



## paradoxper

No need for the regurgitation.


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





paradoxper said:


> No need for the regurgitation.


 
   
  O - I was speaking more so of new comers..


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





preproman said:


> O - I was speaking more so of new comers..


 
  Just picking.


----------



## Man7rah

Quote: 





d2cowones said:


> Icon Audio HP8 MKII, Signature edition version, wonderful pair with LCD-2
> 
> http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/icon-audio-hp8-mk2-tube-headphone-amplifier


 
  Interedasting...


----------



## DefQon

For what's available in the market now and the price the Icon Audio is at and when I did hear them, they are not a worthy competitor to other well mentioned amps for the LCD2's.


----------



## embreal

Meier corda classic also works great with the LCD-2 only crossfeet isn't that great.


----------



## bfreedma

Quote: 





dubstep girl said:


> nice headphones!


 
   
  Thanks!   Your descriptions of the T1 have me thinking......
   
  How would you compare/contrast them to your LCDs?


----------



## JmanOfIsrael

I couldn't find the amp recommendation thread so could you guys give me one? Preferably something under $500 that I could run out of my 4 year old MacBook pro to the LCD-2.2. I'm fairly new to using amps since the Pro 900 never really needed one to satisfy me. I've been using an old Pioneer receiver to drive the AKG Q701 (works fairly well considering I run a typical 1/8" stereo jack from my computer to the receiver) but I kind of want to pamper the LCD-2 as its always been a dream headphone for me--and in a few days it will be a reality!
   
  A short description of what I'd need to make the connections from computer>amp>headphones would be much appreciated as well!
   
  Thanks for the info!
   
  -an amp/headphone newb


----------



## levinhatz

> I couldn't find the amp recommendation thread so could you guys give me one? Preferably something under $500 that I could run out of my 4 year old MacBook pro to the LCD-2.2. I'm fairly new to using amps since the Pro 900 never really needed one to satisfy me. I've been using an old Pioneer receiver to drive the AKG Q701 (works fairly well considering I run a typical 1/8" stereo jack from my computer to the receiver) but I kind of want to pamper the LCD-2 as its always been a dream headphone for me--and in a few days it will be a reality!
> 
> A short description of what I'd need to make the connections from computer>amp>headphones would be much appreciated as well!


 
   
  At that price, best I've heard is the Schiit Lyr ($450). Of course, you'd need a DAC with that one as well. If you try plugging the Lyr directly into your Mac, you will hear why that wouldn't work. 
   
  You should do MBpro > optical cable > Schiit Bifrost > RCA to RCA interconnect > Schiit Lyr > LCD-2
   
  A friend of mine has been pretty satisfied using the Modi with the Lyr instead of the Bifrost, so if you're short on cash, maybe that's the way to go.


----------



## JmanOfIsrael

Thanks for the reply! I've been thinking about the O2 + ODAC combo by JDS. It's inexpensive and hopefully won't confuse me. Can I run a USB from my MB pro to the O2 + ODAC? I have an optical cable but not one that I can run from my MB pro. 

Thanks again!


----------



## citraian

You could also try the ASUS Xonar Essence One. I think it's fairly good with the LCD 2's.


----------



## migasson

I had a WA22 with my LCD-2's, and loved it. Has to sell it for financial reasons, and had to "downgrade" it to a Burson Soloist. Difference? Not as huge as the $1300AUD price disparity would indicate. There's not as much warmth, a tad less body, but I've actually gained extra drive in the bass, and I think, better PRAT, I was a little more excited playing rock, as the bass was also rhythmically tighter. Great amp, and a comparative bargain. Also for a solid state there's a splash of warmth. Synergy for me is definitely there. Feed it a better source, and it gets better and better, so if your recordings are top notch, you'll reap the benefits, as the transparency is high. And as I understand its made in Australia, so if you live here, support locally made product


----------



## JmanOfIsrael

Thanks a ton for the info, once again! I have been loving these things run out of my 10 year-old Pioneer receiver. I was worried about a loss of soundstage coming from the Q701 but the LCD-2 have this awesome, pinpoint soundstage that makes orchestral recordings feel close, intimate, and exciting (something the Q701 had difficulty with). For now, I'm simply going to enjoy these fantastically made cans. This is all great to know for the future though!
   
  Thanks again!


----------



## Dubstep Girl

Quote: 





bfreedma said:


> Thanks!   Your descriptions of the T1 have me thinking......
> 
> How would you compare/contrast them to your LCDs?


 
   
  T1 is bright, much brighter than LCD-2s. its not as full sounding, its faster with better transients, better soundstage/imaging, the bass in punchy and tight but not as clean and not as strong as LCD-2. the sub-bass seems to be better than LCD-2 (quantity not quality), has a nice full sounding decay but it isn't a strong sub-bass, you can hear it, but its not overwhelming. its a very nice bass presentation i really enjoy. still the T1 is on the leaner side, its much more detailed than LCD-2. they're basically opposites. the T1 has a slight V shaped response, the mids can be slightly recessed with the wrong amp/tubes. sounds great paired with WA2 or WA6-SE (WA6-SE not as good though, wider soundstage and more controlled sounding, but brighter and leaner midrange).
   
  i prefer T1 to LCD-2, but both are great headphones.


----------



## DefQon

Every single time I read about a Burson being made in Australia, I chuckle a bit.


----------



## migasson

I was a little suspicious... It would be interesting to know for sure how much of it is made in Australia.. I sent an email last year to Burson and they claimed that it was made in Australia. Anyone know any different?


----------



## migasson

Mind you, it's still a great amp


----------



## DefQon

Yeah I've heard the entire Burson line before, it's not bad. But I didn't know Burson was made in Aus till like late year. Surprisingly.


----------



## fabio-fi

Quote: 





defqon said:


> Yeah I've heard the entire Burson line before, it's not bad. But I didn't know Burson was made in Aus till like late year. Surprisingly.


 
   
  Where have you been man 
   
  When ordered my amp, the origin place was from Australia. (Derrimut) seems like they have the factory somewhere in Victoria.


----------



## bfreedma

Quote: 





dubstep girl said:


> T1 is bright, much brighter than LCD-2s. its not as full sounding, its faster with better transients, better soundstage/imaging, the bass in punchy and tight but not as clean and not as strong as LCD-2. the sub-bass seems to be better than LCD-2 (quantity not quality), has a nice full sounding decay but it isn't a strong sub-bass, you can hear it, but its not overwhelming. its a very nice bass presentation i really enjoy. still the T1 is on the leaner side, its much more detailed than LCD-2. they're basically opposites. the T1 has a slight V shaped response, the mids can be slightly recessed with the wrong amp/tubes. sounds great paired with WA2 or WA6-SE (WA6-SE not as good though, wider soundstage and more controlled sounding, but brighter and leaner midrange).
> 
> i prefer T1 to LCD-2, but both are great headphones.


 
   
  Thanks for the detailed response.  I'll have to locate a pair of T1s to check out!


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





fabio-fi said:


> Where have you been man
> 
> When ordered my amp, the origin place was from Australia. (Derrimut) seems like they have the factory somewhere in Victoria.


 
  DERRIMUT? NO WAY?. I live like 20 minutes away from there and know the area very very well. Might go to the factory someday and buy a Burson at manufacturers price!


----------



## DeadEars

Quote: 





citraian said:


> You could also try the ASUS Xonar Essence One. I think it's fairly good with the LCD 2's.


 
   
  This is not a bad stopgap move, especially if your wallet is screaming about the recent LCD-2 purchase.  The amplifier section of the Xonar is a bit dry sounding, but pretty clean.  Later you can buy a nicer amplifier and use the Xonar as a DAC until you can afford to get a nicer DAC.  Actually, you have to spend quite a bit to beat the DAC in the Xonar Essence One.  I'd get the Xonar and feed the stereo line output into your Pioneer receiver.  Some of those 70's era Japanese receivers can sound DARN good.  Several threads on this site about them.
   
  HTH!


----------



## Monir

Quote: 





deadears said:


> This is not a bad stopgap move, especially if your wallet is screaming about the recent LCD-2 purchase.  The amplifier section of the Xonar is a bit dry sounding, but pretty clean.  Later you can buy a nicer amplifier and use the Xonar as a DAC until you can afford to get a nicer DAC.  Actually, you have to spend quite a bit to beat the DAC in the Xonar Essence One.  I'd get the Xonar and feed the stereo line output into your Pioneer receiver.  Some of those 70's era Japanese receivers can sound DARN good.  Several threads on this site about them.
> 
> HTH!


 
   
  Or alternatively a Yulong D100 which costs almost as much as Essence One and has an extremely good DAC. Its built-in amplifier is also very good, but I can't compare it exactly to the one on Essence One. But still, it drives the LCD-2 fairly well.


----------



## Francoy

Quote: 





jmanofisrael said:


> I couldn't find the amp recommendation thread so could you guys give me one? Preferably something under $500 that I could run out of my 4 year old MacBook pro to the LCD-2.2. I'm fairly new to using amps since the Pro 900 never really needed one to satisfy me. I've been using an old Pioneer receiver to drive the AKG Q701 (works fairly well considering I run a typical 1/8" stereo jack from my computer to the receiver) but I kind of want to pamper the LCD-2 as its always been a dream headphone for me--and in a few days it will be a reality!
> 
> A short description of what I'd need to make the connections from computer>amp>headphones would be much appreciated as well!
> 
> ...


 
   
  I know it’s $300 above your desired price target, but a good match for your MacBook Pro’s anodized aluminum would be this :
http://www.amazon.com/CEntrance-CE1805-DACmini-CX/dp/B004TSHWOG
   
  All you would need is a USB cable OR a mini Optical cable (but just make sure your MacBook has a mini optical jack - mine does but it’s of the current generation).
   
  And sound-wise, I read that it pairs well with the LCD-2s on a number of occasions. So if you have a chance to audition it somewhere (you can bring your MacBook and LCD-2s and have a real-life idea of it’s performance).


----------



## Landmantx

I have the Peachtree Audio DAC-it (Sabre) and it is overall a pretty good dac in your price range especially if you will need optical or coaxial outputs. They sell them refurbished on their site.


----------



## squallkiercosa

I know this a silly question but what would be the cheapest amp with acceptable sound for the LCD-2? or at least with a decent price for starters... Thanks


----------



## DefQon

Vintage speaker amp with headphone out.


----------



## squallkiercosa

Quote: 





defqon said:


> Vintage speaker amp with headphone out.


 
  I was thinking on something newer, not necessarily with a DAC but also appreciate.


----------



## DefQon

Well just to share with you my impressions (those who have heard of this, can block there ears). I got myself a Marantz PM-32 integrated amplifier recently, 80's integrated amplifier using quality Japanese electrical components internally with bass/treble/balance control dial and a headphone out jack. I've owned the Violectrics, heard the Bursons, Phonitors etc. With the right adjustment to bass and treble this $60 amp pulls ahead of all the other alternatives I have tried. There is no reason to think lowly of vintage gear and automatically grouping them to be inferior to other more expensive "dedicated" head amps. Rob aka Skylab, an enthusiast reviewer on these boards prefers his vintage receivers and amps to dedicated headphone amps and he has a lot of experience with a lot of amplifiers. Sure vintage amp's look but ugly in some cases but don't be surprised when they smoke a $1000 headphone amplifier in terms of sound only. 
   
  That said if you want something newer, Violectric has a lot of good stuff you can look at, LD MK VI+ for tubes.


----------



## varyV

I've heard that the O2 performs rather decently. About $144 from the JDS Labs website. For a cheap DAC, you could go for the O2/ODac combo.


----------



## akhyar

Quote: 





squallkiercosa said:


> I know this a silly question but what would be the cheapest amp with acceptable sound for the LCD-2? or at least with a decent price for starters... Thanks


 
  I've demoed iFi Audio iCAN amp with LCD-2 at my local headphone store and I'm quite happy with the sound.
  On some music, I prefer listening with the Xbass on, while my wife prefers the sound with both Xbass and 3D on.


----------



## OPR8R

I have a Headroom Micro Amp that I bought for around $325.  Shortly after I bought a $125 1977 Kenwood Receiver.  There was no comparison.  The Kenwood had it all over the HR for LCD2's.
   
   
  My Kenwood is big and heavy, but if you can find a vintage amp with wood panels they actually look really nice with LCD's.


----------



## Monir

Quote: 





squallkiercosa said:


> I know this a silly question but what would be the cheapest amp with acceptable sound for the LCD-2? or at least with a decent price for starters... Thanks


 
   
  From what I've heard the O2 and Matrix M-Stage should both be just sufficient enough. The LCD-2s aren't that hard to drive, but those are the two budget amps that I come to think of that I've heard people paired with LCD-2.


----------



## squallkiercosa

Quote: 





monir said:


> From what I've heard the O2 and Matrix M-Stage should both be just sufficient enough. The LCD-2s aren't that hard to drive, but those are the two budget amps that I come to think of that I've heard people paired with LCD-2.


 
  I was thinking in a Audinstmx-1 (just for the combo Amp/DAC), but the O2 is currently the top choice.


----------



## DefQon

May as well look at the Magni if you're looking at the O2.


----------



## kothganesh

Quote: 





defqon said:


> May as well look at the Magni if you're looking at the O2.


 
  +1. Get yourself the Modi/Magni combo for USD 200 and you're off and running.


----------



## MattTCG

Regarding the comments on the vintage receivers for hp use...I used to be a skeptic, but not anymore. My old denon receiver, sitting in the attic for the past 15 years, put my doubts to rest. 
   
  Then recently at a meet I heard a Sansui that competed or sounded better than amps costing thousands.


----------



## Francoy

+ 1 on the vintage receiver part. Your dad probably has one gathering dust in his garage, so I would check that out.
   
  Their is many a guy who hunt vintage amps and "refurbishes" them on the net (for example this guy www.iavscanada.com) so you can always snoop around.


----------



## longbowbbs

Hmmm...I have a Denon 5800 sitting in the basement....


----------



## MattTCG

^^ It would be worth checking out...nothing to loose (except that you may develop a hernia carrying that behemoth upstairs 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). I have two Denon receivers. The output stage for headphones is pretty bad on the newer one and nearly brilliant on the older. The vintage receivers often developed the headphone jack to drive orthodynamic hp's. This is where the beauty for modern hp's comes in.


----------



## longbowbbs

Quote: 





matttcg said:


> ^^ It would be worth checking out...nothing to loose (except that you may develop a hernia carrying that behemoth upstairs
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  That bad boy weigh's 62 lb's! I'll have to unbox it and play with it one of these weekends. I set it aside once HDMI took hold. The amps were 170 w/CH into 8ohms and were very nice.


----------



## squallkiercosa

Unfortunately I don't have old receivers but I do appreciate every suggestion you guys make. Thanks


----------



## Monir

Quote: 





defqon said:


> May as well look at the Magni if you're looking at the O2.


 

 I completely forgot about the Magni. I can't say anything about how it sounds, but technically it should be superior to the O2 in some regards. For example, it delivers 1W into 50ohm, whereas O2 should have around ~500mW @ 50ohm.
   
  As said before, LCD-2 is a pair of planar magnetics that are fairly easy to drive, and since people do run it through ex an O2 without any issues I can't say whether you need a lot of output power at all. But according to Audeze, their recommendation is around 1W into 50ohm.
  source: http://support.audeze.com/entries/20866002-Selecting-an-amp-


----------



## OPR8R

They say 1W is "bare minimum".
   
  I got 1.4W into my LCD2's with my Kenwood KR-6030 (vintage) receiver.  And it has bass and treble nobs.


----------



## candrifter

some of the older pioneer sx receivers are very good also


----------



## nam3less

Quote: 





squallkiercosa said:


> Unfortunately I don't have old receivers but I do appreciate every suggestion you guys make. Thanks


 
  Try the Schiit Magni. I find it does extremely well with the LCD2 for $100.
   
  I'm currently running the LCD2 out of an Asgard 2/ODAC and it's very good as well. 
   
  I won't get into a debate on which amp out of the two is better. Generally you get what you pay for (pre amp outs, gain switch, better volume pot, to name a few features of the Asgard 2 over the magni), but either one will drive the LCD2 to its potential.


----------



## DefQon

Glad there are some here running it off vintage grade integrated amplifiers/receivers. Even with my PM-32 driving my HD800's sound extremely good, no need for purrins/Anax mod to tame down treble, this baby has bass, balance and treble dials for easy adjustment.


----------



## Ohmmzz

IMO and Exp, Audeze LCD2,3 doing very well with solid state amps. A hybrid amp like (Cav,L.G.) is also really good to pare with 2,3. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  Another thing that I just found that LCD2,3 need really good sources to shine too (very important).


----------



## DefQon

I found quite the opposite for the 2's. They are very forgiving with source.


----------



## Monir

Yup, I also find the LCD-2 to be very forgiving. At times even more forgiving than my HD650.


----------



## Dubstep Girl

I find the 650 more forgiving than lcd rev 2 cause the highs are more rolled off and the mids are more laid back. Rev1 might be different


----------



## squallkiercosa

I was looking for a Audinst because the all in one enclosure but I don't think Ill be moving the LCD-2 that often. I just bought the Schiit Magni/modi combo. Maybe later in life a powerful amp will be on my sight. Thanks to all of you!


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





dubstep girl said:


> I find the 650 more forgiving than lcd rev 2 cause the highs are more rolled off and the mids are more laid back. Rev1 might be different


 
  My modded rev.1's are not as forgiving as rev.2's with source as it can sound quite sibilant and harsh if fed with low bit rate mp3's or highly compressed music files. But before they were modded, the rev.1's are about on par with HD650's with forgiving crappy source input.


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





squallkiercosa said:


> I was looking for a Audinst because the all in one enclosure but I don't think Ill be moving the LCD-2 that often. I just bought the Schiit Magni/modi combo. Maybe later in life a powerful amp will be on my sight. Thanks to all of you!


 
  You should gotten the DNA Stratus, only $350.


----------



## squallkiercosa

Quote: 





defqon said:


> You should gotten the DNA Stratus, only $350.


 
  My bank account was already in pain. Besides the DAC/Amp combo sold me. I'm not in hurry, my business doesn't look that bright to spend a lot anyway.


----------



## negura

Quote: 





dubstep girl said:


> I find the 650 more forgiving than lcd rev 2 cause the highs are more rolled off and the mids are more laid back. Rev1 might be different


 
   
  This. The HD650s are more forgiving because of the rolloff and that's usually where a lot of wrongs can be found in some recordings. That said the LCD-2.2s are some of the most forgiving high-end headphones.


----------



## Ohmmzz

IMO&EXP again, I have to say both LCD2v.2,3 are not that kind of forgiving or etc. Please do this, 1.paired LCD2v.2,3 with a high power amp > 4w. 2.use good source(DAC, files) to reveal the different.
  If you use something low power output = compromise the sound of the LCD2v.2,3 (every single file is forgiving,acceptable but lacks of image,sound stage, crystal clear, and etc. In long term listening, I found that their sound signature is boring and I have to crank up the volume for details and clear image.
  When the LCD2v.2,3 pair with the right amp, the vocal is sweet and crystal clear, image is stable, sound stage is spread out from L to R.
  **Even crank up the volume higher than normal listening, no problem with ears pain at all
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.**


----------



## ListeningAura

Quote: 





ohmmzz said:


> IMO&EXP again, I have to say both LCD2v.2,3 are not that kind of forgiving or etc. Please do this, 1.paired LCD2v.2,3 with a high power amp > 4w. 2.use good source(DAC, files) to reveal the different.
> If you use something low power output = compromise the sound of the LCD2v.2,3 (every single file is forgiving,acceptable but lacks of image,sound stage, crystal clear, and etc. In long term listening, I found that their sound signature is boring and I have to crank up the volume for details and clear image.
> When the LCD2v.2,3 pair with the right amp, the vocal is sweet and crystal clear, image is stable, sound stage is spread out from L to R.
> **Even crank up the volume higher than normal listening, no problem with ears pain at all
> ...


 
  Then what is an amp that you would consider to fit your criteria? I would like the clearest and most beautiful experience tone-wise possible.


----------



## Ohmmzz

Quote: 





listeningaura said:


> Then what is an amp that you would consider to fit your criteria? I would like the clearest and most beautiful experience tone-wise possible.


 

 IMO,RSA Darkstar, Cavalli Liquid Glass, and any solid state amps that has >>high<< output are very good fit for LCD2,3.
   
  My current system Jriver 18-->USB Nordost Blueheaven---> AMR DP-777 Nordost Vishnu and Anti cable--->Cavalli Liquid Glass (Shuguang Tresure) (Nordost Heimdall2)---->LCD3(ALO S&P cable)= Not the clearest, but pretty good in over all.
   
  If you want the clear and clean sound, try Moon 380 Dac. I think its sound cleaner than AMR DP-777,Wyred DAC2 and Accuphase DP-67.


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





ohmmzz said:


> If you want the clear and clean sound, try Moon 380 Dac. I think its sound cleaner than AMR DP-777,Wyred DAC2 and Accuphase DP-67.


 
  Nice, I have that DAC on the to buy list along with Lampizator if I ever get enough money for it. The Moon 380 DAC is a detail monster.


----------



## visim91

Hi folks,
   
  I received a fine new, rosewood LCD-2 about two weeks back. At first, while I was waiting for my O2 + ODAC Headphone Amp/DAC combo, I plugged my phones into an old McIntosh 2505 amplifier and was duly unimpressed. Of course, this changed the moment my O2/ODAC arrived. I am very satisfied and experiencing some expected change in clarity and bass with break-in. So, here's another vote of confidence for Audeze LCD-2s & the O2/ODAC.
   
  P.S. Y'all had me fooled with all this talk about the LCD-2 being laid-back and warm -- it certainly is, but these phones are quite resolving; so make no mistake fellow readers, it is comparatively warm and exceptionally coherent.


----------



## migasson

I think that what you put into the LCD is what you get out of it..


----------



## cangle

Anybody know of a good headphone amp with a preamp to pair with the Audeze LCD-2 Rev2. I have a budget of around 1000 but would be happy to stretch it to 2000ish if the amp also has a DAC.
  
 That only one that I am aware of at the moment is the Burson Audio Conductor.
  
 I hope to eventually get some Audioengine speakers to plug into the preamp but at the moment I am using the M-Audio AV-40.


----------



## negura

Quote: 





cangle said:


> Anybody know of a good headphone amp with a preamp to pair with the Audeze LCD-2 Rev2. I have a budget of around 1000 but would be happy to stretch it to 2000ish if the amp also has a DAC.
> 
> That only one that I am aware of at the moment is the Burson Audio Conductor.
> 
> I hope to eventually get some Audioengine speakers to plug into the preamp but at the moment I am using the M-Audio AV-40.


 
   
  For the price it will be very difficult finding something better than the Conductor. The amp inside is the Soloist which is awesome for the money. The DAC is also very very good. This is optional, but I would also recommend buying an Audiophilleo 2 or equivalent with the Conductor for the SQ firstly and to save you any headaches from Tenor USB bugs. This combination punches well above its price.


----------



## cangle

> Tenor USB bugs


 
  What do you mean by this? I'm not sure if I have heard of any bugs relating to the USB connection on the conductor


----------



## jackwess

As negura said, the conductor is a wonderful 3 on 1 solution but seems like the usb still needs some improvements. 
   
  A Hiface (usb to coax converter) fixes it..


----------



## negura

Quote: 





cangle said:


> What do you mean by this? I'm not sure if I have heard of any bugs relating to the USB connection on the conductor


 
   
  Depends how lucky you are, you may have no issues at all. I keep in touch with several people with the Conductor. Let's say the Tenor has a certain temperament, you grow into getting used to unfortunately. It has ocassional weird driver bugs, some of them on start-up or when you change things in the OS or just whenever, which require you to sometimes unplug/replug the USB cable as an work-around or even restart the computer. It's generally rare enough to not be an issue at all during normal play, but often enough to remind you their USB is not the best pie there is.
   
  Even so, the SQ is fully worth it. Adding an USB interface to it, takes the overall SQ up a couple of notches and you get no bugs. It's fully worth it for any DAC, with an added incentive here.


----------



## i019791

Quote: 





cangle said:


> Anybody know of a good headphone amp with a preamp to pair with the Audeze LCD-2 Rev2. I have a budget of around 1000 but would be happy to stretch it to 2000ish if the amp also has a DAC.
> 
> That only one that I am aware of at the moment is the Burson Audio Conductor.


 
  Audio gd NFB-27 or Reference 10.32, Grace m903


----------



## Duncan

Quote: 





negura said:


> For the price it will be very difficult finding something better than the Conductor. The amp inside is the Soloist which is awesome for the money. The DAC is also very very good. This is optional, but I would also recommend buying an Audiophilleo 2 or equivalent with the Conductor for the SQ firstly and to save you any headaches from Tenor USB bugs. This combination punches well above its price.


 
  Ugh,
   
  As a brand new owner of LCD2's, and an owner of an HA160D this isn't what I want to see...
   
  That being said, ignorance is bliss, this combination lives up to the hype... This combo has instantly struck a chord with me, unlike the Burson and HD800, which never really did it for me...


----------



## negura

Quote: 





duncan said:


> Ugh,
> 
> As a brand new owner of LCD2's, and an owner of an HA160D this isn't what I want to see...
> 
> That being said, ignorance is bliss, this combination lives up to the hype... This combo has instantly struck a chord with me, unlike the Burson and HD800, which never really did it for me...


 
   
  I shouldn't then be saying great things about the Conductor and HD800s.  
  Which happens to be my favorite combination of what I own, with most of my music. I just didn't write this!  
  Well you probably all too well know how this hobby goes...


----------



## thegrobe

Anyone have experience with the Audio GD SA-31? Seems like it may be a good match if fed by a fairly clean, uncolored DAC.


----------



## Duncan

Quote: 





negura said:


> I shouldn't then be saying great things about the Conductor and HD800s.
> Which happens to be my favorite combination of what I own, with most of my music. I just didn't write this!
> Well you probably all too well know how this hobby goes...


 
  Shush already!!
   
  Hehe...  Nope, not going back to the HD800, no-no-no!!


----------



## citraian

A bird whispered to me that all new Conductors have a new USB board which fixes all problems. I just got one from the new batch and it seems to work perfectly. I'll make sure to post here if any problems arise.
  P.S: 160D doesn't complement the HD800s well but the Conductor takes them to a whole new level.


----------



## cangle

Are the usb bugs with the conductor only coming from computers running windows? I plan on using this with a macbook air, so should I expect these bugs as well?


----------



## jackwess

Haven't heard of driver issues running mac. Only in windows X64.


----------



## Zashoomin

Hello,
  I know this is the section for amps, but there seems to be a lot of debate about DACs so here it goes.  I currently have a gamma2 and am in the market for an upgrade for my LCD-2s.  My budget is around $700 and I don't mind buying used or demo equipment.  It would be connected to my computer, so it would need to have a usb input.  Even if it doesn't I was thinking about investing in an audio gd DI-V3 anyway, since not many usb inputs accept 24/192.  Any and all suggestions would be amazing.
  Thanks in advance.


----------



## DefQon

Advance Acoustics MDX 600.


----------



## migasson

Burson amps.. Best yet with the LCD's I've heard...


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





migasson said:


> Burson amps.. Best yet with the LCD's I've heard...


 
  He asked for a DAC not amp.


----------



## migasson

Good point. I'll shut my mouth.


----------



## varyV

Quote: 





migasson said:


> Burson amps.. Best yet with the LCD's I've heard...


 
   
   
  If you're running SE, you could give the Resonessance Labs Concero a shot. Forum impressions say that it punches above its level and has a small footprint. Has a decent Dac section, plus sound shaping filters which you can control with an apple remote. $599+shipping from Canada...and I even saw one on sale here a few days ago in the "for sale" section.


----------



## dave1109

Quote: 





thegrobe said:


> Anyone have experience with the Audio GD SA-31? Seems like it may be a good match if fed by a fairly clean, uncolored DAC.


 

 I'm running one with the NFB-2.32 dac, very nice combo. IMO, Smooth clear highs, great mids,
  thumping bass, nice detail, but perhaps not as detailed as some set-ups, but forgiving enough to
  let Pandora and Spotify sound really good. I Really need to update my source material.


----------



## Zashoomin

With both the Resonessance Labs Concerto and Advance Aucoustics MDX600 would you guys suggest that I get the DI-V3 and bypass their usb inputs?  Also I hear such good things about the Schiit Bifrost.  How do these compare to it?


----------



## varyV

Quote: 





zashoomin said:


> With both the Resonessance Labs Concerto and Advance Aucoustics MDX600 would you guys suggest that I get the DI-V3 and bypass their usb inputs?  Also I hear such good things about the Schiit Bifrost.  How do these compare to it?


 
   
  I wouldn't say it is necessary. Do keep in mind that I do not yet own the Concero, but my recommendation is based on the opinions of forum members whose opinions are highly regarded. The Concero's USB implementation seems to be quite robust and it can perform the same optical-usb conversion duties as the DI-V3.


----------



## Chris_Himself

I know you said DAC only but I want to comment that I recently started using an NFB 10.32 and I have all the reasons in the world to not like this thing, but it's probably one of my favorite amps for the LCD-2 as of now. For $600 and the ability to control volume from across the room while I do laundry or heck while watching movies from the comfort of my bed is awesome.


----------



## longbowbbs

Quote: 





chris_himself said:


> I know you said DAC only but I want to comment that I recently started using an NFB 10.32 and I have all the reasons in the world to not like this thing, but it's probably one of my favorite amps for the LCD-2 as of now. For $600 and the ability to control volume from across the room while I do laundry or heck while watching movies from the comfort of my bed is awesome.


 
  I do that with my W4S DAC-2's remote.....Nice and lazy!


----------



## Chris_Himself

Quote: 





longbowbbs said:


> I do that with my W4S DAC-2's remote.....Nice and lazy!


 

 I mean it's a hobby that involves sitting on your ass, I'm just taking it to the next level 
   
  No in all seriousness, it's a beautiful amp though, full range of sound.. very separated channels based on it's topology and the lack of a real volume pot can be a buzzkill but again.. remote is everything!
   
  My music isn't 32-bit or even 24, but that DAC has great specs and the way AGD implemented it is great, I have a real great "black volume", nothing sounds bright or overly digital (Grace M903) and for the price  I really cannot argue. I wish it was made in MURICA but you can't have errythang haha


----------



## mentt

Quote: 





cangle said:


> Anybody know of a good headphone amp with a preamp to pair with the Audeze LCD-2 Rev2. I have a budget of around 1000 but would be happy to stretch it to 2000ish if the amp also has a DAC.
> 
> That only one that I am aware of at the moment is the Burson Audio Conductor.
> 
> I hope to eventually get some Audioengine speakers to plug into the preamp but at the moment I am using the M-Audio AV-40.


 
  They say that ALO Pan Am sounds even better than Conductor. Never heared Conductor, but Pan Am sounds very very good to me. Definitely Pan Am is better choice for LCD2 than V200.


----------



## paradoxper

Sorry, Pan Am doesn't touch the Soloist (which is the amp side of Conductor.) IMO.


----------



## mentt

Quote: 





paradoxper said:


> Sorry, Pan Am doesn't touch the Soloist (which is the amp side of Conductor.) IMO.


 
  Did you heared Pan Am? What did not you liked about Pan Am compare to Soloist?
   
  Mike from headfonia thinks that Pan Am is better match for LCD2 than Soloist...


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





mentt said:


> Did you heared Pan Am? What did not you liked about Pan Am compare to Soloist?


 
  Yes. Soloist trumps Pan Am across the entire spectrum. Admittedly, I find Soloist boring
  for my taste, so I'd give the Pan Am the nod with fun factor.
   
  But Pan Am sounds congested and sloppy compared to Soloist. Just my opinion.


----------



## mentt

Quote: 





paradoxper said:


> Yes. Soloist trumps Pan Am across the entire spectrum. Admittedly, I find Soloist boring
> for my taste, so I'd give the Pan Am the nod with fun factor.
> 
> But Pan Am sounds congested and sloppy compared to Soloist. Just my opinion.


 
  Unfortunately never heared Soloist, but A/Bed Pan Am against M-DAC/V200 combo and Pan Am was clear winner for me.


----------



## varyV

Quote: 





mentt said:


> Unfortunately never heared Soloist, but A/Bed Pan Am against M-DAC/V200 combo and Pan Am was clear winner for me.


 

 Clear winner? That's very intriguing, considering that you pit the Pan Am against a combo which some would settle for end game. Could you provide more thoughts on the A/B?


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





mentt said:


> Unfortunately never heared Soloist, but A/Bed Pan Am against M-DAC/V200 combo and Pan Am was clear winner for me.


 
  We all hear gear differently. I know the V200 has had quite the following, I personally
  never really liked it. I think the Pan Am is a fun sounding amp and has a nice form factor,
  but there's just certain gear I wouldn't blink twice picking over it.


----------



## mentt

Quote: 





varyv said:


> Clear winner? That's very intriguing, considering that you pit the Pan Am against a combo which some would settle for end game. Could you provide more thoughts on the A/B?


 
  v200 sounded muddy and harsh, not fun to listen to...
  (Pan Am + Passport + Siemens tubes)


----------



## mentt

Quote: 





paradoxper said:


> We all hear gear differently. I know the V200 has had quite the following, I personally
> never really liked it. I think the Pan Am is a fun sounding amp and has a nice form factor,
> but there's just certain gear I wouldn't blink twice picking over it.


 
  Which gear would it be?


----------



## negura

Quote: 





mentt said:


> v200 sounded muddy and harsh, not fun to listen to...
> (Pan Am + Passport + Siemens tubes)


 
   
  Muddy as in wet or warm maybe, harsh no...


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





mentt said:


> Which gear would it be?


 
  A lot. Mostly everything. I'd take a Pan Am over Project Sunrise, but that's about it. And I'd take virtually all SS over the Pan Am. Just my preference.


----------



## DefQon

But project sunrise is a $200 kit lol.


----------



## NZheadcase

The Soloist is great for the LCD 2 and is head and shoulders above the Pan Am. However, I also think that the Pan Am is a fun little amp for many headphones. Love it with LCD 2, T1, A900x etc. Quite a powerhouse in a small package. I would venture to say I prefer the Pan Am over Asgard 1. It even manages to come very very close to the Lyr in the fun factor. The Pan Am is more in your face. Brings the vocals closer so it works well with less than stellar recordings and er...performers if you know what I mean. It has enough juice to give the LCD that boom and oomph that it is capable of without really exposing much of the warts in a recording. Feed it CD quality MP3s and you'll enjoy it. Feed it better recordings and you will be rewarded.
   
  The Soloist though, is definitely the better overall amp. Soundstage, bass quality, clarity. You can get lost in the music listening to the Soloist. It is more apt for appreciative listening and just relaxing. Though when called upon, it will give you enough to rock out. The Soloist will lay a recording our crystal clear especially if you pair it with a good quality DAC. It can give you a sense of a recording being more spread out or diffused if you like. You can dissect the music and thus hear imperfections and of course, reveal that certain artists or songs you thought you liked were actually quite...meh...Feed the Soloist lossy recordings and it will punish you. Feed it quality stuff and it will not only reward you, it will caress your senses.


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





defqon said:


> But project sunrise is a $200 kit lol.


 
  Yea, about that...


----------



## DemonFox

Quote: 





nzheadcase said:


> The Soloist is great for the LCD 2 and is head and shoulders above the Pan Am. However, I also think that the Pan Am is a fun little amp for many headphones. Love it with LCD 2, T1, A900x etc. Quite a powerhouse in a small package. I would venture to say I prefer the Pan Am over Asgard 1. It even manages to come very very close to the Lyr in the fun factor. The Pan Am is more in your face. Brings the vocals closer so it works well with less than stellar recordings and er...performers if you know what I mean. It has enough juice to give the LCD that boom and oomph that it is capable of without really exposing much of the warts in a recording. Feed it CD quality MP3s and you'll enjoy it. Feed it better recordings and you will be rewarded.
> 
> The Soloist though, is definitely the better overall amp. Soundstage, bass quality, clarity. You can get lost in the music listening to the Soloist. It is more apt for appreciative listening and just relaxing. Though when called upon, it will give you enough to rock out. The Soloist will lay a recording our crystal clear especially if you pair it with a good quality DAC. It can give you a sense of a recording being more spread out or diffused if you like. You can dissect the music and thus hear imperfections and of course, reveal that certain artists or songs you thought you liked were actually quite...meh...Feed the Soloist lossy recordings and it will punish you. Feed it quality stuff and it will not only reward you, it will caress your senses.


 
   
  That makes me hopeful. I have a Burson HA-160DS that will be here hopefully by weeks end or early next week. Basically its just a smaller 160D without the pre-amp and extra inputs that I have zero use for anyway. So far I've read that the amp section is quite good and pack all kinds of punch but the DAC is still above average but not on par with the amp section. Either way both will be huge upgrades to what I have right now. So I'm smiling either way  
   
  For those that may be interested.
   
  There is a Pan AM on eBay right now that comes with the Passport and other stuff. I almost bought it a few weeks ago but was beat out by $5 bucks (still mad about that)... Turns out the buyer fell through and its up for sale again so if someone wants to save money this will be a great chance if your serious about the Pan Am. 
   
http://www.ebay.com/itm/The-Pan-AM-and-Passport-Alo-Audio-Headphone-Amp-USB-Dac-Battery-/151045301693?pt=US_Headphones&hash=item232b0065bd
   
   
  Thanks,


----------



## kothganesh

.........

The Soloist though, is definitely the better overall amp. Soundstage, bass quality, clarity. You can get lost in the music listening to the Soloist. It is more apt for appreciative listening and just relaxing. Though when called upon, it will give you enough to rock out. The Soloist will lay a recording our crystal clear especially if you pair it with a good quality DAC. It can give you a sense of a recording being more spread out or diffused if you like. You can dissect the music and thus hear imperfections and of course, reveal that certain artists or songs you thought you liked were actually quite...meh...Feed the Soloist lossy recordings and it will punish you. Feed it quality stuff and it will not only reward you, it will caress your senses. 
[/quote]

Just the person to answer my question . What DAC do you think pairs very well with the Soloist? I have the amp and am pairing it with the Bifrost.
Thanks


----------



## NZheadcase

Quote: 





kothganesh said:


> Just the person to answer my question . What DAC do you think pairs very well with the Soloist? I have the amp and am pairing it with the Bifrost.
> Thanks


 
   
  Hi kothganesh, 
   
  I answered this query in the Soloist thread.   Just so we don't go off track on this thread. Cheers!
   
  Glenn
   
http://www.head-fi.org/t/613800/burson-new-soloist-headphone-amp/915#post_9435986


----------



## myap2328

Hey, 
I was thinking of doing the lyr-bitfrost combo and was thinking if there is any other options in this price range. The only one I have in mind is the Lehmann Audio's Linear Amp/Dac.


----------



## NZheadcase

Before I got the Schiit stack I briefly considered the Yulong D100 Mk2 DAC and D18 AMP, or the D18 and A18 stack. But availability in my area nixed that. I read good things about yulong products.


----------



## AManAnd88Keys

Quote: 





myap2328 said:


> Hey,
> I was thinking of doing the lyr-bitfrost combo and was thinking if there is any other options in this price range. The only one I have in mind is the Lehmann Audio's Linear Amp/Dac.


 

 The Lehmann Linear is a great amp, but the optional dac board isn't that great. A standalone DAC like the Bifrost is likely a better choice.


----------



## myap2328

amanand88keys said:


> The Lehmann Linear is a great amp, but the optional dac board isn't that great. A standalone DAC like the Bifrost is likely a better choice.




Will check that, but won't get to try the lyr till 3 weeks time.


----------



## the8o88y

I need help deciding whether to get an SS or tube amp. I've read here that tube/hybrid amps make the phones more musical and lively, but with the disadvantage of hissing noise. SS amps give the phones more clarity but also make them more neutral and dry.
   
  I just recently decided to go all in with LCD2.2's and they arrived yesterday! i don't have an amp or DAC yet, so I plugged them stock into my denon 3313 receiver to see what I'm going to be working with.
   
  I'm considering between the lyr/bifrost combo or burson HA-160D for starters. If you can suggest something better, I'm all for it. My budget for an amp and dac right now is around $1000 total. I'd like to list some pros and cons on the LCD2.2's (stock) so you can steer me in the right direction.
   
  Pros: Transparent, musical, dark sound signature. I like the coloration in mids and especially bass, since I am more of a basshead. The music feels *alive* as opposed
            to neutral, dry, grainy or too analytical.
   
  Cons: Lack of clarity in treble and mids, especially with electric guitar. Sound becomes muddy with more volume. I like to listen at high volume and know I can't without a good amp.      
            Soundstage is a bit more closed than I expected.
   
  If I could have an amp that enhances the pros and helps strengthen the weaknesses (clarifies the muddiness, allows high volume listening, opens up the soundstage, maintains the musicality and the sweet mids and bass), I'll be set. With a $1000 budget, I'm not expecting perfection, just the best value for my preferences. I listen to most if not all genres, but more than anything rock/metal/alternative. Thanks in advance!


----------



## DefQon

For tube amp. Little Dot MK VI+, I can't recommend it enough especially when it almost puts all the Woo lineup, up to the WA5 (different story here onwards) to shame in terms of sound performance and great bang for buck. Price is around $850 shipped (or a bit more).
   
  For solid state, I'm going to say Mjonir, b22 or possibly even the Soloist (as others like it) as near end game for the LCD2's at the up to $1k price range. If you change your mind about spending too much on just an amp and want a little remaining for a DAC. Any of the Violectric stuff (V100/200) fits this bill pretty easily as they go for around $750-800.
   
  Although you find this as interest, I've got my modded LCD2's hooked up to a $60 Marantz PM-32 integrated amp with bass/treble dials and I can tell you, in terms of sound this thing puts out I like it more than any of the solid state amp's I've owned (V100/V200, b22)


----------



## Monir

Quote: 





defqon said:


> For tube amp. Little Dot MK VI+, I can't recommend it enough especially when it almost puts all the Woo lineup, up to the WA5 (different story here onwards) to shame in terms of sound performance and great bang for buck. Price is around $850 shipped (or a bit more).
> 
> For solid state, I'm going to say Mjonir, b22 or possibly even the Soloist (as others like it) as near end game for the LCD2's at the up to $1k price range. If you change your mind about spending too much on just an amp and want a little remaining for a DAC. Any of the Violectric stuff (V100/200) fits this bill pretty easily as they go for around $750-800.
> 
> Although you find this as interest, I've got my modded LCD2's hooked up to a $60 Marantz PM-32 integrated amp with bass/treble dials and I can tell you, in terms of sound this thing puts out I like it more than any of the solid state amp's I've owned (V100/V200, b22)


 

 I'm getting more and more interested in tubes and I'm currently looking into Little Dot MKVI+
   
  Since you've had the V200, how would you say it compares to the Little Dot?


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





monir said:


> Since you've had the V200, how would you say it compares to the Little Dot?


 
  It doesn't compare. lol


----------



## Monir

Quote: 





defqon said:


> It doesn't compare. lol


 

 Could specify? From what I've read it should have great soundstage and bass slam, but according to others it's straight up neutral and not bloomy or warm like the V200 or A18 for example, it's a bit confusing.


----------



## DefQon

All I can say is whatever tube's you roll in the VI+ is whatever sound it is going to give. The way it behaves with each tube you roll the sound changes like a chameleon. If you roll Mullards, you're going to get a good low-end, if you roll Tung-Sol 5998's you're going to get boost in soundstage and a sparkle to your treble and mid range while retaining detail, if you roll in some regular RCA or GE's, the sound will be warmer, more bass and will sound slower. Whatever tubes are popular for regarding with there sound, is the sound you're going to get. Not to mention you have to find the best combination to roll them to suit a particular genre you mainly listen to or suit a particular headphone. Tube rolling with this amp get's pretty expensive.


----------



## myap2328

Apparently I heard many complain that the lcd-2 has a generally small soundstage (in width) compared to other open cans. I don't find it so, because I have yet audition it with classical music. Just a warming just in case you are expecting the soundstage to improve in leaps and bounds.


----------



## Monir

Quote: 





defqon said:


> All I can say is whatever tube's you roll in the VI+ is whatever sound it is going to give. The way it behaves with each tube you roll the sound changes like a chameleon. If you roll Mullards, you're going to get a good low-end, if you roll Tung-Sol 5998's you're going to get boost in soundstage and a sparkle to your treble and mid range while retaining detail, if you roll in some regular RCA or GE's, the sound will be warmer, more bass and will sound slower. Whatever tubes are popular for regarding with there sound, is the sound you're going to get. Not to mention you have to find the best combination to roll them to suit a particular genre you mainly listen to or suit a particular headphone. Tube rolling with this amp get's pretty expensive.


 

 Ah, I thought people were referring to the stock tubes. It will mostly take me time to start rolling on those expensive tubes due to budget limitations, but that's one of the things I like about tube amps is that you can easily tailor the sound signature by changing the tubes rather than replacing the entire amp.


----------



## DefQon

Yep. Not to mention the VI+ has more than enough power to drive the HE-6 or K1000, two of the most difficult headphones to drive.


----------



## Monir

Yeah I was really amazed by the high current ouput, makes me think of the SS amps from Audio-gd.


----------



## Monir

By the way, given that the amp is OTL/OCL, how does its output impedance measure? I've only read that people like using the LCD-2 with it but nothing about its pairing with lower impedance headphones. Waiting for Davidzhezhe's response as well.


----------



## justie

Just out of curiosity, how many hours does a tube usually last?


----------



## nam3less

5000ish hours. Depends on the tube of course.


----------



## justie

what about vintage or NOS tubes?


----------



## Monir

Just got a reply from David.
   
  He writes that the power output into 50 ohms is around 6W per channel and 3W per channel to 600 ohms. The balanced output impedance is 32-600 ohms. (The impedance description he gave is very standard and not that specific, so it's hard to pinpoint its exact value. The same spec was given for the MKIII which has a fairly high output impedance and did not work that well with low impedance headphones.)
   
  While the output power is really amazing on the MK6, especially for orthos, the output impedance is a little discouraging even though it is expected of a tube amp which is not transformer coupled; damping factor might not be that good with low impedance headphones, so I'm a bit concerned with how it fares with the LCD-2 in regards to damping factor.


----------



## khaine1711

Quote: 





monir said:


> Just got a reply from David.
> 
> He writes that the power output into 50 ohms is around 6W per channel and 3W per channel to 600 ohms. The balanced output impedance is 32-600 ohms. (The impedance description he gave is very standard and not that specific, so it's hard to pinpoint its exact value. The same spec was given for the MKIII which has a fairly high output impedance and did not work that well with low impedance headphones.)
> 
> While the output power is really amazing on the MK6, especially for orthos, the output impedance is a little discouraging even though it is expected of a tube amp which is not transformer coupled; damping factor might not be that good with low impedance headphones, so I'm a bit concerned with how it fares with the LCD-2 in regards to damping factor.


 
  Orthos drivers are purely resistive load, generally not affected by (electrical) damping (that much) if that's what you're worried about.


----------



## Monir

Okay, I see, thanks.


----------



## citraian

From what I know, frequency response will not be affected by output impedance but damping will.


----------



## Monir

Yeah, but I usually think of damping factor being higher with lower ouput impedances.


----------



## the8o88y

Quote: 





defqon said:


> For tube amp. Little Dot MK VI+, I can't recommend it enough especially when it almost puts all the Woo lineup, up to the WA5 (different story here onwards) to shame in terms of sound performance and great bang for buck. Price is around $850 shipped (or a bit more).
> 
> For solid state, I'm going to say Mjonir, b22 or possibly even the Soloist (as others like it) as near end game for the LCD2's at the up to $1k price range. If you change your mind about spending too much on just an amp and want a little remaining for a DAC. Any of the Violectric stuff (V100/200) fits this bill pretty easily as they go for around $750-800.
> 
> Although you find this as interest, I've got my modded LCD2's hooked up to a $60 Marantz PM-32 integrated amp with bass/treble dials and I can tell you, in terms of sound this thing puts out I like it more than any of the solid state amp's I've owned (V100/V200, b22)


 
   
   
  Quote: 





the8o88y said:


> I need help deciding whether to get an SS or tube amp. I've read here that tube/hybrid amps make the phones more musical and lively, but with the disadvantage of hissing noise. SS amps give the phones more clarity but also make them more neutral and dry.
> 
> I just recently decided to go all in with LCD2.2's and they arrived yesterday! i don't have an amp or DAC yet, so I plugged them stock into my denon 3313 receiver to see what I'm going to be working with.
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  Upon further research, I've decided I'm going to spend a little more money on an amp so I hopefully won't have to upgrade. The three names that keep coming up are Mjolnir, Soloist, and V200, as well as in DefQon's response. Out of these, what do they offer compared to one another, and which would be the best for my preferences?


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





justie said:


> Just out of curiosity, how many hours does a tube usually last?


 
  Depends on the grade of the tube. How many hours of listening time/how long you leave the amp on/the tubes being NOS or completely brand reissues. It's good to buy spares as well.
  Quote: 





nam3less said:


> 5000ish hours. Depends on the tube of course.


 
  Yeah around this mark.
  Quote: 





justie said:


> what about vintage or NOS tubes?


 
  See my above response.
  Quote: 





the8o88y said:


> Upon further research, I've decided I'm going to spend a little more money on an amp so I hopefully won't have to upgrade. The three names that keep coming up are Mjolnir, Soloist, and V200, as well as in DefQon's response. Out of these, what do they offer compared to one another, and which would be the best for my preferences?


 
  Personally for myself, I greatly prefer the VI+ out of the amps mentioned. There's not much of a con you can find with the VI+ unless you compare it directly to the > $2.5k flagship bad boys such as the higher up Cavalli amps, Leben CS300, the Eddie Current line up etc, then you notice very little subtle improvements here and there which for some people can make a minor to big difference.
   
  I also like my other dynamic headphones powered off the VI+ as well. 
   
  Just remember that the amp may cost less than $1k, once you start tube rolling, you will exceed $1k very very easily, but at the same time is very very rewarding.


----------



## khaine1711

Did you like the Hd800 with the VI also? just curious =p


----------



## DefQon

I like it but it's not the best pairing with the HD800 I have ever heard. There is the VIII SE that David designed solely for the high impedence Sennheisers (580-800) which costs a little more due to some of the parts used. I haven't heard that amp so I cannot comment how well it performs with it.


----------



## Monir

I've been reading that some members on head-fi had hum/noise issues with the MKVI, mostly via single-ended or as a preamp, and others say that they have no hum issue with their MKVI+ model. I especially remember one member that had no issues with the K1000 but had a slight buzz with the LCD-2 via single-ended.
   
  I will most likely buy the MK VI+ the coming month or so and use it single-ended until I can afford a balanced recabling. The hum noise (not the fan noise) would be an issue for me if this persists with the latest version. From what I've gathered it sounds like ground loop and/or interference noise that was reminiscent of the MKIII that I had before.
   
  What's your take on it, Defqon? Have you encountered any noise issues either via balanced or single-ended on any headphone?


----------



## the8o88y

Quote:  





> Just remember that the amp may cost less than $1k, once you start tube rolling, you will exceed $1k very very easily, but at the same time is very very rewarding.


 
   
  This is part of why I was leaning more toward a SS amp...but if it the MKVI+ is indeed better, what are some tube pairings you can recommend to me based on my preferences?
   
  Another concern is noise with tube amps. Is MKVI quiet in this regard?


----------



## khaine1711

Quote: 





monir said:


> I've been reading that some members on head-fi had hum/noise issues with the MKVI, mostly via single-ended or as a preamp, and others say that they have no hum issue with their MKVI+ model. I especially remember one member that had no issues with the K1000 but had a slight buzz with the LCD-2 via single-ended.
> 
> I will most likely buy the MK VI+ the coming month or so and use it single-ended until I can afford a balanced recabling. The hum noise (not the fan noise) would be an issue for me if this persists with the latest version. From what I've gathered it sounds like ground loop and/or interference noise that was reminiscent of the MKIII that I had before.
> 
> What's your take on it, Defqon? Have you encountered any noise issues either via balanced or single-ended on any headphone?


 
  Reterminate your LCD2 to balanced yourself, cost 10 bucks and 5 mins, since the cable already got 4 conductors.


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





monir said:


> I've been reading that some members on head-fi had hum/noise issues with the MKVI, mostly via single-ended or as a preamp, and others say that they have no hum issue with their MKVI+ model. I especially remember one member that had no issues with the K1000 but had a slight buzz with the LCD-2 via single-ended.
> 
> I will most likely buy the MK VI+ the coming month or so and use it single-ended until I can afford a balanced recabling. The hum noise (not the fan noise) would be an issue for me if this persists with the latest version. From what I've gathered it sounds like ground loop and/or interference noise that was reminiscent of the MKIII that I had before.
> 
> What's your take on it, Defqon? Have you encountered any noise issues either via balanced or single-ended on any headphone?


 
  To my knowledge (and I haven't been keeping up with the Appreciation thread) was that those were the earlier units that exhibited the hum with later units improved greatly? I could be wrong, I get no noise with neither SE or balanced. Although I run mostly balanced.
  Quote: 





the8o88y said:


> This is part of why I was leaning more toward a SS amp...but if it the MKVI+ is indeed better, what are some tube pairings you can recommend to me based on my preferences?
> 
> Another concern is noise with tube amps. Is MKVI quiet in this regard?


 
  Very hard for me to say what is good for you. I've been reading other peoples recommendations and buying in that particular order. There is the Little Dot tube rolling thread and the LD VI+ and VIII SE appreciation threads that have plenty of information on tube rolling these amps.
  Quote: 





khaine1711 said:


> Reterminate your LCD2 to balanced yourself, cost 10 bucks and 5 mins, since the cable already got 4 conductors.


 
  +1


----------



## negura

Quote:  





> Upon further research, I've decided I'm going to spend a little more money on an amp so I hopefully won't have to upgrade. The three names that keep coming up are Mjolnir, Soloist, and V200, as well as in DefQon's response. Out of these, what do they offer compared to one another, and which would be the best for my preferences?


 
   
  Depends which headphones you end up using. With the LCD-2 all 3 seem to work great. The LCD-2s are easy to pair, but again you'll only get the quality in return that you invested in your amp, so probably wise choice skipping the low/mid-fi. I've owned the V200 and now the Soloist.
   
  V200: This is a great tubey-like sounding amp. It is warm coloured. A bit rolled off at the top, good but not great soundstage. It works great with LCD-2s, HD800, but not the best with the LCD-3s, as it kind of takes the LCD-3 backwards in some respects.
  Soloist: Works great with all 3, because it's neutral, great soundstage, very detailed, engaging, dynamic, full at the top, without being bright or harsh at all. They way it's tuned is suitable to the vast majority of headphones, including IEMs.
  I didn't hear the Mjolnir at length, only at a meet, but I probably wouldn't pair with the HD800s.


----------



## mentt

Quote: 





negura said:


> Depends which headphones you end up using. With the LCD-2 all 3 seem to work great. The LCD-2s are easy to pair, but again you'll only get the quality in return that you invested in your amp, so probably wise choice skipping the low/mid-fi. I've owned the V200 and now the Soloist.
> 
> V200: This is a great tubey-like sounding amp. It is warm coloured. A bit rolled off at the top, good but not great soundstage. It works great with LCD-2s, HD800, but not the best with the LCD-3s, as it kind of takes the LCD-3 backwards in some respects.
> Soloist: Works great with all 3, because it's neutral, great soundstage, very detailed, engaging, dynamic, full at the top, without being bright or harsh at all. They way it's tuned is suitable to the vast majority of headphones, including IEMs.
> I didn't hear the Mjolnir at length, only at a meet, but I probably wouldn't pair with the HD800s.


 
  I was disappointed with V200 sound, with LCD2s and also with HD800s. After couple weeks of side by side use of Pan am and M-DAC/V200 I have decided to sell M-DAC/V200 combo and keep Pan Am. It was very easy decision.


----------



## Monir

For LCD-2 I preferred the Yulong Sabre A18 a bit more over the Violectric V200. I was also a little disappointed with the V200, if it was cheaper it would've been a teriffic amp. I thought it fared slightly better with the HD650 than the LCD-2 for some reason.


----------



## i019791

Quote: 





negura said:


> Depends which headphones you end up using. With the LCD-2 all 3 seem to work great. The LCD-2s are easy to pair, but again you'll only get the quality in return that you invested in your amp, so probably wise choice skipping the low/mid-fi. I've owned the V200 and now the Soloist.
> 
> V200: This is a great tubey-like sounding amp. It is warm coloured. A bit rolled off at the top, good but not great soundstage. It works great with LCD-2s, HD800, but not the best with the LCD-3s, as it kind of takes the LCD-3 backwards in some respects.
> Soloist: Works great with all 3, because it's neutral, great soundstage, very detailed, engaging, dynamic, full at the top, without being bright or harsh at all. They way it's tuned is suitable to the vast majority of headphones, including IEMs.
> I didn't hear the Mjolnir at length, only at a meet, but I probably wouldn't pair with the HD800s.


 
  If "tubey-like" means smooth and slightly warm, ok. But it is hard for me to consider it coloured, to my ears is neutral.


----------



## negura

Quote: 





i019791 said:


> If "tubey-like" means smooth and slightly warm, ok. But it is hard for me to consider it coloured, to my ears is neutral.


 
   
  If it's slightly warm it cannot be neutral...


----------



## Monir

Quote: 





i019791 said:


> If "tubey-like" means smooth and slightly warm, ok. But it is hard for me to consider it coloured, to my ears is neutral.


 

 Exactly my thoughts. When I was comparing the A18 to the V200 I noticed that the treble is slightly smoother on the A18 and the A18 being a little more spacious - but the LCD-2 does not benefit that much from it, it was more noticable on the K701 I borrowed; and therefore I can imagine it being a better fit for HD800. I think I read about some people really liking the A18 and HD800 pairing.
   
  Of course they are both neutral to my ears, but perhaps warm for being solid state which often are notorious for being on the cold side. After trying out HA-160, V200, and A18 I feel that the best place to get a really tubey sound is to actually go with a tube amp. Sort of miss my MKIII, when I had it running through my HD650 it sounded so much better than it ever did through the V200 or A18. I can imagine the same for LCD-2 through the MK VI+, WA2, WA6SE etc. But it remains to be heard.
   
   
  By the way, the built-in amp on the D100 MKII drives the LCD-2 very well. The only noticable difference I can discern (with soundmode 2 on) is that its bass is slightly less detailed and the vocals not as prominent as on the A18. Other than that it is more than sufficent with the LCD-2.


----------



## preproman

I've only listen to the V200 / LCD-2 for a little while, not much time at all maybe all of 3 days.  However, both the headphone and the amp share similar traits.  Both are warm, both highs are sort of rolled off at the top, both have a similar soundstage (smallish), both are colored.  
   
  IMO - not a good match.  Just not what I would like.  
   
  Now the LCD-2 and the Mjolnir really compliment each other very well.  The Mjolinr does every thing it can to bring out whats in the LCD-2.  Same with the BHA-1.  Have not heard the Soloist yet.  However, from others impressions it would seem to be a good fit as well.


----------



## Monir

Quote: 





negura said:


> If it's slightly warm it cannot be neutral...


 
   
  I also think it has to do with what people percieve as neutral, warm or cold. Some say that DAC1 is cold, others say it's straight-up cold and clinical. V200 or A18 to some may be neutral/natural, or warm to others. Back when I listened to a lot of tube amps the only thing that strikes me when I listen to the V200 and A18 is that they're neutral, detailed, and without a harsh upper-end.


----------



## i019791

Quote: 





negura said:


> If it's slightly warm it cannot be neutral...


 
  Neutral = cold ?
  If the Soloist is warmer than the Mjolnir (as I have read, if I remember well - otherwise reverse the amps in the sentence), it is not neutral ?
   
  Edit: Nevermind, as I think *Monir* above put it better than me


----------



## myap2328

monir said:


> I also think it has to do with what people percieve as neutral, warm or cold. Some say that DAC1 is cold, others say it's straight-up cold and clinical. V200 or A18 to some may be neutral/natural, or warm to others. Back when I listened to a lot of tube amps the only thing that strikes me when I listen to the V200 and A18 is that they're neutral, detailed, and without a harsh upper-end.




IMO, what one hear might not be what the other hear. Down to personal preferences too. One may perceive warm as his "neutral" as he prefers it.


----------



## hekeli

I guess I'm deaf since O2/G109/V200/Soloist all pretty much sounded the same to me. So they are all warm? Or neutral? Are you guys really talking about the last 5% differences that only some hear/care or have you actually done level matched ABing?


----------



## negura

Quote: 





hekeli said:


> I guess I'm deaf since O2/G109/V200/Soloist all pretty much sounded the same to me. So they are all warm? Or neutral? Are you guys really talking about the last 5% differences that only some hear/care or have you actually done level matched ABing?


 
   
  If you didn't hear it, you're either "lucky" and you will not have to have all these concerns, or something else at play in your system such as suboptimal source. I've level matched A/B'ed my V200 and Soloist at home. There is a clear difference, recognisable by non-audiophiles such as wife.


----------



## Monir

Quote: 





myap2328 said:


> IMO, what one hear might not be what the other hear. Down to personal preferences too. One may perceive warm as his "neutral" as he prefers it.


 

 Indeed, it's all subjective.


----------



## negura

Quote: 





i019791 said:


> Neutral = cold ?
> If the Soloist is warmer than the Mjolnir (as I have read, if I remember well - otherwise reverse the amps in the sentence), it is not neutral ?
> 
> Edit: Nevermind, as I think *Monir* above put it better than me


 
   
  Spectrum is: Warm -> Neutral -> Cold. Think of an axis with -, 0, +. The definion of neutral should be: The amp does not add/substract any coloration to the sound coming out of the DAC, or ideally the original sound.  
   
  Obviously there are individual sets of ears, preferences yada, ymmv, etc... But then again, it makes it more difficult to have a conversation where the definition of terms swings...


----------



## hekeli

Quote: 





negura said:


> If you didn't hear it, you're either "lucky" and you will not have to have all these concerns, or something else at play in your system such as suboptimal source. I've level matched A/B'ed my V200 and Soloist at home. There is a clear difference, recognisable by non-audiophiles such as wife.


 

 I just spent days comparing G109(*) and Soloist with Concero as source (and HD800's). If there was a "clear" difference, then certainly not for my ears. There might have been _very_ small differences, but I choose to ignore anything that's not clearly repeatable (maybe our definition of clear differs). I also don't count anything that requires switch times over 1 second..
   
  It's pretty funny since I wouldn't really consider my hearing bad, I score very well for example in the distortion detection test (can't remember the url right now..).
   
  (*)I compared O2/G109/V200 long time ago with instant RCA switchbox without clear differences. So I believe G109/V200 are pretty comparable.


----------



## Taliesin

Im currently looking at the Burson Soloist SL, ALO Pan Am, Schiit Bifrost + Lyr combo, Woo Audio WA7/WA6SE, Musical fidelity M1 HPA, and Centrance Dacmini.
Has anyone here tried a few of those amps with the LCD2. Which gives the strongest bass impact. Which gives the best soundstage.


----------



## kothganesh

taliesin said:


> Im currently looking at the Burson Soloist SL, ALO Pan Am, Schiit Bifrost + Lyr combo, Woo Audio WA7/WA6SE, Musical fidelity M1 HPA, and Centrance Dacmini.
> Has anyone here tried a few of those amps with the LCD2. Which gives the strongest bass impact. Which gives the best soundstage.



IMHO, Bifrost+Lyr, followed very closely by Bifrost+Soloist.


----------



## kothganesh

kothganesh said:


> IMHO, Bifrost+Lyr, followed very closely by Bifrost+Soloist.




Lyr gives both, Soloist is a little more detailed and neutral.


----------



## DefQon

I never liked any of the LCD2's with the Lyr, sound was too constricted and muffled. I liked the V100/V200 with my modded LCD2 rev.1's but it was a weird mix with the rev.2's. As I've been saying for quite a while now, you want the polar opposites of the traits of an amp to pair with the LCD2's. LCD2's are dark, warm and laid back, you want an amp that is bright/neutral to balance the flaws/sound sig of the rev.2's.
   
  For some reason I just never seemed to have gotten into the Soloist + LCD2 pairing (neither did I with the Conductor, 160A/D). Amazingly Burson's manufacturing plant is only 25 minutes drive away from me.


----------



## myap2328

defqon said:


> I never liked any of the LCD2's with the Lyr, sound was too constricted and muffled. I liked the V100/V200 with my modded LCD2 rev.1's but it was a weird mix with the rev.2's. As I've been saying for quite a while now, *you want the polar opposites of the traits of an amp to pair with the LCD2's*. LCD2's are dark, warm and laid back, you want an amp that is bright/neutral to balance the flaws/sound sig of the rev.2's.
> 
> For some reason I just never seemed to have gotten into the Soloist + LCD2 pairing (neither did I with the Conductor, 160A/D). Amazingly Burson's manufacturing plant is only 25 minutes drive away from me.




That's your opinion. I like the LCD-2 just the way it is, if you are tryin to neutralize everything might as well get a neutral can in te first place. It seems like you are attempting to do away with all of the LCD-2s traits. And NO I so not find warm Bassy and dark a negative.

500th Post- Nice!


----------



## DefQon

Warm amp + LCD2 = yuck.


----------



## OPR8R

Quote: 





myap2328 said:


> .
> 
> 500th Post- Nice!


 
   
  Grats.


----------



## HeyWaj10

taliesin said:


> Im currently looking at the Burson Soloist SL, ALO Pan Am, Schiit Bifrost + Lyr combo, Woo Audio WA7/WA6SE, Musical fidelity M1 HPA, and Centrance Dacmini.
> Has anyone here tried a few of those amps with the LCD2. Which gives the strongest bass impact. Which gives the best soundstage.




Forget about the M1HPA...I know from experience. It is FAR too polite an amp for the LCD2 signature. Treble is refined(ish), but splashy and a bit sterile. Also has no punch whatsoever. I thought it would make a solid pairing, and it does overall...I'm just left wanting more with each listen.

I'm currently auditioning the Burson Soloist SL (Burson's loaner program) and am loving the sound!!


----------



## myap2328

opr8r said:


> Grats.




Thx.


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





defqon said:


> As I've been saying for quite a while now, you want the polar opposites of the traits of an amp to pair with the LCD2's. LCD2's are dark, warm and laid back, you want an amp that is bright/neutral to balance the flaws/sound sig of the rev.2's.


 
   
  For once we agree.  Like I said befor the best I've heard the LCD-2 was on the Mjolnir.  That is is neutral to being  a tad bit on the bright side..


----------



## Monir

If anything I sometimes feel that I want the LCD-2 to be warmer lol


----------



## zilch0md

defqon said:


> *I never liked any of the LCD2's with the Lyr, sound was too constricted and muffled.* I liked the V100/V200 with my modded LCD2 rev.1's but it was a weird mix with the rev.2's. As I've been saying for quite a while now, *you want the polar opposites of the traits of an amp to pair with the LCD2's. LCD2's are dark, warm and laid back, you want an amp that is bright/neutral to balance the flaws/sound sig of the rev.2's.*
> 
> For some reason I just never seemed to have gotten into the Soloist + LCD2 pairing (neither did I with the Conductor, 160A/D). Amazingly Burson's manufacturing plant is only 25 minutes drive away from me.




We must be from the same planet! I completely agree with everything you've said here! 

Listen to DefQon, folks. He's spot on.



Mike


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





preproman said:


> For once we agree.  Like I said befor the best I've heard the LCD-2 was on the Mjolnir.  That is is neutral to being  a tad bit on the bright side..


 
  We've agreed with things more than just that (just not about the b22). But hey more the power to both us for liking and preferring different things. I reckon even a standard 2 channel b22 will match with the LCD2's, haven't tried mine in a while, both my b22 is on open bench.
  Quote: 





zilch0md said:


> We must be from the same planet! I completely agree with everything you've said here!
> 
> Listen to DefQon, folks. He's spot on.
> 
> ...


----------



## DeadEars

I somewhat agree with this point of view, however, the LCD-2 won't put back what isn't there.  So a bright amp that's starved for harmonic texture won't sound all that great. 
   
  I still prefer tubed amps with my LCD-2's.  That said, I was surprised at a mini-meet to hear how great they sounded with the Bryston BHA-1 (mine are LCD-2.1).  Tons of clean bass, a midrange that sounded "right" and a high end that was not brash or harsh.  Cymbals and piccolo's sounded just right, not splashy or screechy.  There were some bigger dollar amps there that did not do so well.  I've heard good-sounding B22's, but the 2-box unit that was at the mini-meet was a bit boring compared to the Bryston. 
   
  My heavily modded Mapletree Audio amp did pretty well, even if it does sound a bit too pretty and romantic.  It delivers nearly 1.5W into the LCD's with alternate output transformers and boosted B+ on the EL84 output tubes.  But the Bryston was a big surprise to me!  By the way, the B22's sounded better to me with the Sennheiser HD600's, and the Bryston sounded less good.  So there is certainly something about synergy, you can't just buy by the numbers.


----------



## PinkLed

The Lyr is incredible with the right tubes. With the stock tubes its just mediocre. Amperex 66' PQ o-getters have been serving me well with it. Tube rolling is a nice way to get new sounds without having to spend mega bucks on a brand new rig.


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





deadears said:


> I somewhat agree with this point of view, however, the LCD-2 won't put back what isn't there.  So a bright amp that's starved for harmonic texture won't sound all that great.
> 
> I still prefer tubed amps with my LCD-2's.  That said, I was surprised at a mini-meet to hear how great they sounded with the Bryston BHA-1 (mine are LCD-2.1).  Tons of clean bass, a midrange that sounded "right" and a high end that was not brash or harsh.  Cymbals and piccolo's sounded just right, not splashy or screechy.  There were some bigger dollar amps there that did not do so well.  I've heard good-sounding B22's, but the 2-box unit that was at the mini-meet was a bit boring compared to the Bryston.
> 
> My heavily modded Mapletree Audio amp did pretty well, even if it does sound a bit too pretty and romantic.  It delivers nearly 1.5W into the LCD's with alternate output transformers and boosted B+ on the EL84 output tubes.  But the Bryston was a big surprise to me!  By the way, the B22's sounded better to me with the Sennheiser HD600's, and the Bryston sounded less good.  So there is certainly something about synergy, you can't just buy by the numbers.


 
   
   
  I second the LCD-2 / BHA-1 combo.. Same with the LCD / Mjolnir..


----------



## Justin_Time

preproman said:


> I second the LCD-2 / BHA-1 combo.. Same with the LCD / Mjolnir..




I arrived at similar conclusion with additional shades of variation.

I started from the assumption that no piece of equipment is perfect. The ultimate reference for me is live music (The Myerson Concert Hall in Dallas) and the practical reference is my stereo system (Avid Acutus/SME V/Lyra Titan; Rowland Research consummate and Wilson Watts/Puppies 8)..

LCD2/LCD3--Things I like: coherent sound across audible range; tremendous bass impact; tight focus; front-row, you-are-there imaging. Things I don't like: constricted soundstage; a honking (hollow and echoey midrange coloration; caramel coloration over everything imparting a darkness to the sound. If you like the "strengths" and do not mind the "weaknesses" then you do not have to do any sound tailoring to your taste. You just pick the most neutral cable and amp and you're done.

I had to do a lot of careful selection of cables and amps to preserve or reinforce what I like and minimizing or eliminating what I do not like.

Cable--I found that silver cables are best at preserving/re-inforcing the strengths and reducing/eliminating the weaknesses--to my ears-- of the LCD2/3. Tighter, better controlled bass, wider soundstage; still tight focus but more realistic image (about third row) and much less darkness in the sound. Best QPR silver cables I found were by Toxic Cables: Silver Poison (OCC silver + gold cable); Silver Widow (Litz silver cable). OCC coper re-informed bot the strength and weaknes of the LCD.

Amps-- Vioelectric V200: very clean midrange; good sound stage; good bass impact; no more honking; just minimal darkness left. Bryston BHA-1: similar to V200 but even better bass impact and slightly better improvement in all department. But there is a peculiar lack of excitement to the sound compared to the V200 and especially relative to the next amp. Schiit Mjolnir: add more sparkles to the sound. The LCD came alive, especially compared to the Bryston, but at a price: the sound is fatiguing in the long run--perhaps too much of a good thing. RWA Corvina: Another step up; great bass impact (in balanced mode); wonderful midange; more natural imaging; and very detailed, musical treble. Unfortunately, too much of the darkness remained but if you are a fan of the caramel-colored sound, you'd love this combo. GSX-1 Mk2: overall probably the best sound I got from the LCDs. The darkness is gone without any detrimental effect on the inherent strengths of the LCDs. However, I wished there were a tiny bit more bass impact. I have good success using the LCD2/3 with the Peak/Vocano, Cavalli LF and Woo WA5-LE. But I prefer to give these amps more discussion space that I have today.


----------



## AManAnd88Keys

Quote: 





justin_time said:


> Cable--I found that silver cables are best at preserving/re-inforcing the strengths and reducing/eliminating the weaknesses--to my ears-- of the LCD2/3. Tighter, better controlled bass, wider soundstage; still tight focus but more realistic image (about third row) and much less darkness in the sound. Best QPR silver cables I found were by Toxic Cables: Silver Poison (OCC silver + gold cable); Silver Widow (Litz silver cable). OCC coper re-informed bot the strength and weaknes of the LCD.


 
  I don't want to go off topic, but the Silver Poison and Silver Widow are both Silver+Gold cables.


----------



## commtrd

amanand88keys said:


> I don't want to go off topic, but the Silver Poison and Silver Widow are both Silver+Gold cables.




Well that's great to read in regards to the Toxic Cables since I just paid $460 for a Silver Widow with the Neutrik connectors. Really anticipating getting the cable and hopefully it will put the finishing touches on my LCD2.2s.


----------



## DemonFox

Quote: 





justin_time said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  What you did there was very helpful thank you very much. I have the Burson HA-160DS arriving today and I can't wait to see how it all works but if it doesn't you gave me a lot of different options to consider so either way this is going to work. 
   
  Have anyone of you tried either the SR-71a or Portaphile 627 with the LCD's? I'm thinking of just going portable but I need one that is strong enough to push the LCD's and my soon to be Fostex cans to full potential. Needs loads of power and a good bottom end. Bass adjustments are a serious plus (to me). ALO RxMk3 is high on the list as well. Apex Glacier too.
   
  Help me out here gang.
   
   
  Thanks,


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





justin_time said:


> GSX-1 Mk2:


 
   
   





  What's that??


----------



## DemonFox

My Burson came in finally (woot) HA-160DS say hello... 
   
   
   
   

   
   
  First impression is this thing is clean. Not matter what volume I cranked this little sucker to it handled it with zero problem. No cracking or nasty highs and sloppy bass over here. Clean clear crisp smooth sound. I would like a little bit more focus in the lower end, the sub-bass with the LCD's doesn't need a lot of help but a little more umph would have gone a long way. So far so good!! The only other mid-level I've had was the EF5 from Hifiman and this is a better amp plus the DAC isn't half bad so I'm pleased so far. 
   
   
  Thanks,


----------



## kothganesh

Quote: 





demonfox said:


> What you did there was very helpful thank you very much. I have the Burson HA-160DS arriving today and I can't wait to see how it all works but if it doesn't you gave me a lot of different options to consider so either way this is going to work.
> 
> Have anyone of you tried either the SR-71a or Portaphile 627 with the LCD's? I'm thinking of just going portable but I need one that is strong enough to push the LCD's and my soon to be Fostex cans to full potential. Needs loads of power and a good bottom end. Bass adjustments are a serious plus (to me). ALO RxMk3 is high on the list as well. Apex Glacier too.
> 
> ...


 
  I have the SR 71-B as part of my portable rig (paired to the CLAS -dB) with the LCD 2.2. Its a very, very good amplifier and adds to the strengths of the 2.2.


----------



## myap2328

May I know what are the minimum to get these cans running, to at least a decent level. Modi/Magni? O2/ODAC? Or 
  have anyone heard of the iFi iCan/iDac or Graham Slee Novo and MicroMega MyDac?


----------



## OPR8R

Quote: 





myap2328 said:


> May I know what are the minimum to get these cans running, to at least a decent level. Modi/Magni? O2/ODAC? Or
> have anyone heard of the iFi iCan/iDac or Graham Slee Novo and MicroMega MyDac?


 
  Audeze says 1W (@50ohms)  is bare minimum.  More than that would be better/best.


----------



## myap2328

opr8r said:


> Audeze says 1W (@50ohms)  is bare minimum.  More than that would be better/best.




Yea, but any names you know?


----------



## DefQon

40watts @ 8ohms. Is that enough for the LCD2's?


----------



## OPR8R

myap2328 said:


> Yea, but any names you know?




What's your budget?

I have a Decware Taboo that outputs 1700 mw @ 50/75 ohms. There are plenty others but it starts getting pricey. I have a vintage speaker amp that does 1400 mw and sounds great. I picked that up for like $150.


----------



## OPR8R

​


defqon said:


> 40watts @ 8ohms. Is that enough for the LCD2's?




I've always said they sound good out of an iPod but they're a different animal altogether when properly powered. That (40 w @ 8 ohms) sounds like an awful lot of juice. How much is that @ 50 ohms?

... And you'd know better than me


----------



## myap2328

opr8r said:


> ​I've always said they sound good out of an iPod but they're a different animal altogether when properly powered. That (40 w @ 8 ohms) sounds like an awful lot of juice. How much is that @ 50 ohms?
> 
> ... And you'd know better than me




Woah! They sound good out I am iPod.....


----------



## Gnomeplay

Quote: 





myap2328 said:


> Woah! They sound good out I am iPod.....


 
  Yeah, they're surprisingly efficient.
   
  Definitely would never recommend them without a decent amplifier though.


----------



## myap2328

gnomeplay said:


> Yeah, they're surprisingly efficient.
> 
> Definitely would never recommend them without a decent amplifier though.




Okay.


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





opr8r said:


> I've always said they sound good out of an iPod but they're a different animal altogether when properly powered. That (40 w @ 8 ohms) sounds like an awful lot of juice. How much is that @ 50 ohms?
> 
> ... And you'd know better than me


 
  Yea lots of power = true.
   
  But I don't know the answer to the last question as to much watts that is @ 50 ohms. I can't figure it out. I've been acting like a zombie today.


----------



## solserenade

Quote: 





myap2328 said:


> Woah! They sound good out I am iPod.....





>


 
   
  I have been pleasantly surprised many times when plugging my LCD2 straight into an iPhone 4s, or iPod 2g, iPod 1g, and various Macs (with or without a Fiio E17 amp/dac) ........ and heard beautiful full sound -- not _ideal_ of course -- but my feeling is they are extremely versatile 'phones.


----------



## commtrd

solserenade said:


> I have been pleasantly surprised many times when plugging my LCD2 straight into an iPhone 4s, or iPod 2g, iPod 1g, and various Macs (with or without a Fiio E17 amp/dac) ........ and heard beautiful full sound -- not _ideal_ of course -- but my feeling is they are extremely versatile 'phones.




Yes the LCD2.2s do provide nice sound BUT with very limited sound stage and rolled off treble response.


----------



## Monir

Indeed they are, so if anyone is on a budget but really want the LCD-2 then they can just buy them and run them out of practically anything until they can afford a powerful amp.
   
  I know Audeze says minimum 1W, and others say that the best way to drive them is through very high output power amps with ~5W. But even an HA-160 with a pretty low output power can drive them perfectly, even the built-in amp on D100 MKII is sufficient enough. Of course I haven't tried very high output powered amps like the ones from Audio-gd, MKVI+, or the Schiit amps, so I can't comment on the improvement of sound apart from higher volumes; but nontheless I'm very amazed at how versatile these headphones really are, considering them being planar magnetic and all.


----------



## thegrobe

I have had the Audio-GD SA-31 here for a week, using the DACmini CX (1ohm) > SA-31 > LCD-2.2. I am pretty satisfied with this setup. The DACmini/LCD-2 combo is supposedly nearly a perfect match (from what I've read from several on here) so I was not really expecting to get any kind of improvement. My expectations were low. Before you read on, be aware that I have not used any other amps with the LCD so I don't have any comparisons with the names that always pop up on this thread. Just my portable amp, Leckerton UHA 6S-MKII, and the DACmini all-in-one. 
   
  With the DACmini feeding the LCD, the sound is really good. However I couldn't help but feel that I wanted to try an amp with some more wattage behind it to see if I could bring a bit more out of the LCD. Direct out of the DACmini, my issue is wishing for a bit more bass presence. And I also feel the sound of the combo is the best when the headphones are driven at a bit higher volume, and when you go just a bit past that I can feel the amp section is straining just a bit. Bass gets a bit looser, highs a little more harsh. (very very minor amounts) So my sweet spot with that setup is just near the cusp of pushing the amp sections ability. Probably a little room for improvement. 
   
  The Audio-GD SA-31 puts out 10 watts @ 40 ohm (so what is that at the LCD's 50 ohm?) I don't know. Maybe 9 watts? Plenty, anyway. Diamond differential design. There are 3 adjustable "warmth" settings that can be set with internal jumpers. "0", "Warm 1" and "Warm 2". This amp, while having the description of "musical flavor" and "warmth settings"...well, don't let that fool you into thinking it will be a muddy mess with the LCD. Quite the opposite.
   
  This amp pumps out gobs of clear goodness and the warmth seems to be affecting harmonics and space more so than primary notes. Compared to direct out of the DACmini, it is actually cleaner and more detailed. Adding the jumpers to the "warm 1" setting gives more depth to the space and a wonderful lifelike sensation while not affecting the clarity whatsoever. I hate to use this term, buuuuuttt..."3D" works here. That's the difference. "warm 2" is just on the cusp of affecting details a bit. Bass/ headspace gets bigger and deeper...still perfectly suitable for the LCD. I settled on "warm 1" for now. Best of both worlds. I have read on some posts describing the Audio-GD amps darkness or warmth as "Kingwa dark". Whatever that guy is doing, he is doing it right. My biggest fear was that this amp would be too dark or warm for the LCD. Not an issue. 
   
  Drawbacks? I wish it had a volume knob rather than buttons. But it was a design choice for sound quality reasons. Also, I need to now invest in some good RCA interconnects, since it's not one box anymore . (I'm using kind of cruddy ones now) Also the blue display lights are way too bright, but a touch of window tint fixed that. My wife says it's ugly. But she says that about everything audio related. 
   
  Anyway, just initial impressions. This amp gives you all juice you need for the LCD-2 without breaking a sweat. The real surprise here is the added warmth and soundstage without affecting clarity at all. This reminds me of some of my favorite gear, Heir Audio 8.A and the LCD-2. They can be warm, and fun, but serving up details as well. Speaking of which, the amp has no issue driving sensitive custom IEM's as well. Switch it to low gain and you're good. The DACmini is just too strong for my Heir 4.A's (the 8.A's are okay). I had to run the DACMini to my UHA amp to use it with the 4.A's. I can plug those right into the SA-31 and get good results. 
   
  Is it worth adding a $500 amp to the DACmini for the improvement? well that's up to you. Everybody has done stupider things! ha ha. I really would love to be able to try some other amps in this price range or some of the other gear discussed on this thread to see how the SA-31 compares. 
   
  And yes, I agree with the comments about the LCD-2 being able to be enjoyed from just about any source. I have tried the LCD-2 direct from an iPod touch 5G, Clip Zip, and Ipod classic 7G and it's not the worst thing in the world! (prepare for some funny looks if you have a clip zip dangling off the end of your LCD cable) LOL. However, upping the sources and amping brings more out of the cans for sure.


----------



## nam3less

myap2328 said:


> Yea, but any names you know?


 

   
  Magni does it. Asgard 2 does it. Plenty of people use the O2 and say it is fine and that's considerably less than either of those (1/2 the power). 
   
  The LCD2 aren't hard to drive.


----------



## DefQon

Remember guys power /= gain.


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





defqon said:


> Remember guys power /= gain.


 
   
  HUH??
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Your saying power "does not" = gain - correct?


----------



## DefQon

Power/current does not equal gain.


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





defqon said:


> Power/current does not equal gain.


 
   
  Right


----------



## zilch0md

Quote: 





defqon said:


> 40watts @ 8ohms. Is that enough for the LCD2's?


 
   
  Quote: 





opr8r said:


> [snip]
> 
> That (40 w @ 8 ohms) sounds like an awful lot of juice. How much is that @ 50 ohms?
> 
> [snip]


 
   
  We can't assume that all amps handle different impedances proportionately, so this is just a rough estimate (using inverse proportions, because power goes down as impedance goes up):
   
*For an amp rated at** 40 Watts into 8 Ohms, how many Watts will we get into 50 Ohms** (LCD-2 rev.1)**?    *
   
      x Watts / 40 Watts = 8 Ohms / 50 Ohms
   
      Solving for x, we get 8 * 40 / 50 = *6.4 Watts* (into 50 Ohms)
   
  ---
   
*For an amp rated at **40 Watts into 8 Ohms, how many Watts will we get into 60 Ohms** (current LCD-2)**?    *
   
      x Watts / 40 Watts = 8 Ohms / 60 Ohms
   
      Solving for x, we get 8 * 40 / 60 = *5.33 Watts* (into 60 Ohms)
   
  Quote: 





thegrobe said:


> [snip]
> 
> The Audio-GD SA-31 puts out 10 watts @ 40 ohm (so what is that at the LCD's 50 ohm?) I don't know. Maybe 9 watts? Plenty, anyway.
> 
> [snip]


 
   
*For an amp rated at 10 Watts into 40 Ohms, how many Watts will we get into 50 Ohms (LCD-2 rev.1)?    *
   
      x Watts / 10 Watts = 40 Ohms / 50 Ohms
   
      Solving for x, we get 40 * 10 / 50 = *8 Watts* (into 50 Ohms)
   
  ---
   
*For an amp rated at 10 Watts into 40 Ohms, how many Watts will we get into 60 Ohms (current LCD-2)?    *
   
      x Watts / 10 Watts = 40 Ohms / 60 Ohms
   
      Solving for x, we get 40 * 10 / 60 = *6.67 Watts* (into 60 Ohms)

   
   
  Audeze specifications say that the LCD-2 can handle up to 15 Watts, so amps rated any higher than 94 Watts per channel into 8 Ohms should be avoided for the earlier 50-Ohm LCD-2, and any amps rated higher than 113 Watts per channel into 8 Ohms should be avoided for the newer 60-Ohm LCD-2.
   
  Proceed at your own risk.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Mike


----------



## thegrobe

Quote: 





zilch0md said:


> Audeze specifications say that the LCD-2 can handle up to 15 Watts, so amps rated any higher than 94 Watts per channel into 8 Ohms should be avoided for the earlier 50-Ohm LCD-2, and any amps rated higher than 113 Watts per channel into 8 Ohms should be avoided for the newer 60-Ohm LCD-2.
> 
> Proceed at your own risk.
> 
> ...


 
  Cool..Thanks for sharing this useful information!


----------



## zilch0md

Hi thegrobe,
   


Spoiler: thegrobe's%20impressions%20of%20the%20Adio-GD%20SA31%20with%20LCD-2%20(vs.%20DACmini%20CX)



 


thegrobe said:


> I have had the Audio-GD SA-31 here for a week, using the DACmini CX (1ohm) > SA-31 > LCD-2.2. I am pretty satisfied with this setup. The DACmini/LCD-2 combo is supposedly nearly a perfect match (from what I've read from several on here) so I was not really expecting to get any kind of improvement. My expectations were low. Before you read on, be aware that I have not used any other amps with the LCD so I don't have any comparisons with the names that always pop up on this thread. Just my portable amp, Leckerton UHA 6S-MKII, and the DACmini all-in-one.
> 
> With the DACmini feeding the LCD, the sound is really good. However I couldn't help but feel that I wanted to try an amp with some more wattage behind it to see if I could bring a bit more out of the LCD. Direct out of the DACmini, my issue is wishing for a bit more bass presence. And I also feel the sound of the combo is the best when the headphones are driven at a bit higher volume, and when you go just a bit past that I can feel the amp section is straining just a bit. Bass gets a bit looser, highs a little more harsh. (very very minor amounts) So my sweet spot with that setup is just near the cusp of pushing the amp sections ability. Probably a little room for improvement.
> 
> ...


 
   
   


   

  I very much enjoyed reading your post regarding the SA-31, and I've just finished reading Audio-GD's page.  Very tempting.  I for one, don't want to go any darker than what I hear with the DACmini CX (1-Ohm) to LCD-2 rev.1, but I would very much like more to hear the LCD-2 with more power.  
   
  Here's an equally compelling testimony you might find interesting - yet another way to spend $500:  http://www.head-fi.org/t/629352/he-500-lcd2-d5000-dt770-sr80-on-a-speaker-amp-emotiva-mini-x-a-100-project/1005#post_9328545
   
  Thanks again for your report!
   
  Mike


----------



## DefQon

@zilch
   
  Repped post. Cheers.


----------



## Justin_Time

preproman said:


> :eek:   What's that??




Sorry, misspelling!

It's the Gilmore GS-X Mk2, an upgrade from the well, known, well-loved but alas discontinued GS model by Headamp.

Cheers,

ST


----------



## Justin_Time

amanand88keys said:


> I don't want to go off topic, but the Silver Poison and Silver Widow are both Silver+Gold cables.




True, but the difference in the gauge of the wires and more important, the construction--the Litz has much higher surface areas for each wire and a geometric arrangement of the wire (the twisting) to give each tiny wire the same time on the inside and outside of the bundle--changes the balance of high- to low-frequencies and perhaps other thing as well. The Silver Poison and Silver Widow sound noticeably different.


ST


----------



## Justin_Time

deadears said:


> I somewhat agree with this point of view, however, the LCD-2 won't put back what isn't there.  So a bright amp that's starved for harmonic texture won't sound all that great.




While I agree with you that a bright amp will sound bright with the LCD-2 and that the LCD-2 cannot reproduce what wasn't there to begin with, I would suggest that the LCD-2 itself is not a neutral transducer, far from it. While their colorations are euphonic to many (not all) Head-Fiers, other find them far from being neutral. 

So if the objective is to have a sound as free from colorations as possible, the challenge is then to select cables and amps that will minimize the LCD-2 colorations (dark sound, restricted soundstage, dominant mid-bass...) while retaining the LCD-2 strength. 

My preference has always been toward musical and also neutral (though not sterile) sound. With the LCD-2 (and to a less extend the LCD-3), that is usually a lot of work.


----------



## zilch0md

Quote: 





justin_time said:


> While I agree with you that a bright amp will sound bright with the LCD-2 and that the LCD-2 cannot reproduce what wasn't there to begin with, I would suggest that the LCD-2 itself is not a neutral transducer, far from it. While their colorations are euphonic to many (not all) Head-Fiers, other find them far from being neutral.
> 
> So if the objective is to have a sound as free from colorations as possible, the challenge is then to select cables and amps that will minimize the LCD-2 colorations (dark sound, restricted soundstage, dominant mid-bass...) while retaining the LCD-2 strength.
> 
> My preference has always been toward musical and also neutral (though not sterile) sound. With the LCD-2 (and to a less extend the LCD-3), that is usually a lot of work.


 
   
  I'm fascinated by your post, Justin, as I'm one of those people who loves the way the LCD-2 rev.1 sounds when connected to a very neutral DAC and amp (the DACmini CX with 1-Ohm output impedance mod) in combination with Toxic Cables' Silver Poison.  To my ears, my tastes, the colorations of the LCD-2 are "perfect," but I'm willing to admit that I've probably just adapted my hearing to crave this sound - that I could, in time, reform my tastes, were I forced to do so.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Meanwhile, your talk of how hard it is to make the LCD-2 more neutral, is inversely analogous to what I've been trying to achieve for about six months now - making my Beyerdynamic T1 sound more like my LCD-2 rev.1.  And yes, it's "a lot of work."  I've been moving slowly, but I'm currently using a Decware ZSTAGE (single-tube gain stage) inserted ahead of a Burson Soloist - which adds a wee bit of warmth on its own, but which is actually less dynamic and more laid back (as in fourth-row seating) than the DACmini CX 1-Ohm version, believe it or not. 
   
  I'm rolling tubes in the amazingly transparent ZSTAGE, but as yet, I've not found a 12AU7 or 12AT7 that can give the T1 the warm mids and bass signature of the LCD-2.  I would dearly love to achieve that with the T1, while retaining the T1's transparency, speed, resolution and sound stage.  Attempts at using digital EQ to reshape the T1 have been very unappealing.  I think I'm going to end up going to a tube amp, if I don't throw in the towel and sell the T1, first.
   
  Until then, when I'm not experimenting, I use the DACmini CX (1-Ohm mod) > Silver Poison > LCD-2 rev.1 as my favorite combination for just enjoying my music.  For the LCD-2 rev.1, I prefer the more forward, punchy, more neutral, and ever so slightly etched DACmini CX 1-Ohm over the Burson Soloist.
   
  Mike


----------



## Justin_Time

zilch0md said:


> Meanwhile, your talk of how hard it is to make the LCD-2 more neutral, is inversely analogous to what I've been trying to achieve for about six months now - making my Beyerdynamic T1 sound more like my LCD-2 rev.1.  And yes, it's "a lot of work."  I've been moving slowly, but I'm currently using a Decware ZSTAGE (single-tube gain stage) inserted ahead of a Burson Soloist - which adds a wee bit of warmth on its own, but which is actually less dynamic and more laid back (as in fourth-row seating) than the DACmini CX 1-Ohm version, believe it or not.
> 
> Mike




Oh, making the T1 to sound like the LCD-2 is very difficult. 

My guess is that you should look for am amp with good upper bass, lush but in you face midrange and somewhat rolled-off treble: tube! Not tube hybrid but tube. You have 7 tubes to roll!!!

I think the Eddie Current Super 7 may just do the job. You can use a Sylvania GTB for driver tube. For other tube, you could use a pair of KR for enhanced mid bass, a pair VT231 for lush midrange and then try a pair of other tube for final shaping.

The RWA Corvina, Cavalli LF and Peak Volvaco have too much treble energy for the T1 to sou=nd like the LCD-2.

Just a thought.

ST

PS: I sold my T1 so I cannot try these combo for you.


----------



## thegrobe

Quote: 





zilch0md said:


> Hi thegrobe,
> 
> I very much enjoyed reading your post regarding the SA-31, and I've just finished reading Audio-GD's page.  Very tempting.  I for one, don't want to go any darker than what I hear with the DACmini CX (1-Ohm) to LCD-2 rev.1, but I would very much like more to hear the LCD-2 with more power.
> 
> ...


 
  Hi Mike,
  I have read with interest that thread about the Mini-X A-100, and was considering the A-100 for this "brute power" experiment of mine. Somehow I missed the post regarding the Millenia (maybe I glossed over some of the 70-odd pages Ha ha) That does seem like another interesting way to go about things. I actually decided against the A-100/speaker amp direction for the following reasons: ..1) Lack of ability to use with CIEM's..(and just not as versatile overall) 2) Need to make/invest in cable which drives the price up/value down. and 3) While I'm sure it's a great solution, I had nagging feeling that maybe this wouldn't be the greatest SQ, I heard some users mention hiss. And that is a no-go for me. Let's face it the price is almost too good to be true something was scaring me off. But that's probably just me being dumb so let's scratch that last one. 
   
  But anyway, the Millenia may be a better overall quality unit so actually if I went the speaker amp route that would knock out my #3 worries. As long as hiss/hum wasn't an issue  So in the end I decided to just spend a bit more and pick up the SA-31. I wanted finesse and brute juice. I'm glad I did.
   
  Back to the SA-31. ..The way I have my setup, the DACmini on it's own is actually darker than the DACmini>SA-31 "warm 1" so if that eases any worries about things getting darker. Let me give you my thoughts on what i'm going for so you know where I'm coming from. 
   
  I am not trying hard for any kind of neutral or "reference" sound or whatever anyone may wish to call it. What I am trying to get is something that just sounds natural and engaging _to me_. So if that's warmer or not "correct" I'm not too worried. But my preference is pretty even and balanced (no boosted treble, bass, etc) just a little warmth I guess. Maybe not exactly the same thing you are shooting for. Also I note you are using the rev.1 so I'm not sure how all this translates. But I'm sure most of it does. 
   
  With that said, I do use a bit of EQ on the LCD-2, and it is basically just to even out the little peaks and dips that can be found on the included graph. A couple db up or down, precisely targeted just to give that 1k and higher range a smooth response. I also add about 2.5 db low shelf at 45 db because my LCD graph has a dip there. So my EQ'ing is basically to get a very flat response. Edit : I've learned later int his thread that EQ can harm my sound, so now I'm experimenting without EQ. There are benefits to using it, and not using it, I suppose. I also use TB Isone as a crossfeed. I find this gives me a more natural, non-fatiguing experience and I have the settings to where I'm not losing any appreciable detail or affecting the tone. 
   
  So there you go, I'm all for a bit of EQ and crossfeed to make things cohesive. So shoot me. 
   
  Aaaaaaaand back to the SA-31...(sorry I go on tangents) The SA-31 is actually less dark than the DACmini. It won't be darker than you hear. In the next couple days, I will switch to the "warm 2" settings and give it a few days listen again. And compare to the DACmini. But as things stand, with "warm 1" engaged. The difference is more space "headspace, soundstage?" and more sparkle and air to the whole feeling. Really nice the way there is more clarity than the DACmini amp section, and as I said, the warmth is more of a harmonic and space sensation that is completely natural. I'm trying to be as objective as possible  - but really I had no expectation for improvement but this is an improvement (to me) I really don't find a whole lot of change in the bass presence in "warm 1" but better control. I briefly had "warm 2" when I first got the amp and I recall it adding a bit more bass presence - I'll double check that in a few days. I suspect maybe the DACmini DAC section itself is a bit thin in bass? Perhaps that is why I don't find a huge change in that regard with a different amp? EDIT: and of course, I want to add, that these differences I notice are of course, the last 5-10% difference that we are always shooting for. Not night-n-day stuff. 
   
  Unfortunately I'm now interested in trying the matching SA-1 or SA-2 DAC! 
   
  Enough from me for now.
   
  There are a couple SA-31 for sale in the classifieds.....


----------



## DeadEars

Quote: 





justin_time said:


> While I agree with you that a bright amp will sound bright with the LCD-2 and that the LCD-2 cannot reproduce what wasn't there to begin with, I would suggest that the LCD-2 itself is not a neutral transducer, far from it. While their colorations are euphonic to many (not all) Head-Fiers, other find them far from being neutral.
> 
> So if the objective is to have a sound as free from colorations as possible, the challenge is then to select cables and amps that will minimize the LCD-2 colorations (dark sound, restricted soundstage, dominant mid-bass...) while retaining the LCD-2 strength.
> 
> My preference has always been toward musical and also neutral (though not sterile) sound. With the LCD-2 (and to a less extend the LCD-3), that is usually a lot of work.


 
   
   
  I'm not sure that I agree that the objective is to have sound as free from colorations as possible either.  I think the objective is to recreate a musical event inside your head.  Your ears are interpreting a wave of sonic information, and your brain is filling in the blanks.  So much of what happens is idiosyncratic to the individual.  You are building an illusion, but the "reality" of that illusion can be enhanced by absence of noise, reduced distortion, a broader set of frequencies at their correct respective levels, and full harmonic dimensionality delivered on time. 
   
  Some of these things can be measured, but the correlation between measurement and interpretation is pretty rough.  Nevertheless, at the end of the day it is all still an illusion.  Listening to live events, and then listening via headphones to the recording of that same event (even when such recordings are done with outstanding precision) shows us how far from "real" we still are.  The absolute best technology we have today is still a long way from perfect.  And it's hard to say for sure what is "best" when so much of what's going on is based on internal processing by the brain.
   
  So we're in the world of building illusions.  An example.  My sister is a concert flutist.  She played first flute for the New Jersey Symphony Orchestra, was piccolo and flute player at the Metropolitan Opera, and has played in a variety of other orchestras.  She can listen to an absolutely crap recording on poor equipment and get full enjoyment of a musical piece, because she is exceptionally good at recreating the musical event in her head.  She listens to scratchy mono recordings of concert performances of the 1930's and 1940's, long before high-fidelity was beginning to be achieved (in terms of measured performance).  We were sharing a recording of Bizet's L'Arlesienne suite from 1951.  I found it thin and a bit boring, but she was captivated.  She was hearing deep into the recording and listening to the interpretation of the score.  She had the full orchestra playing in here head, while I had noise in mine.
   
  I do know that I feel the LCD-2 gets cello's right.  I listen to a lot of cello music.  Frankly, I've never heard HD-800's deliver as convincing illusion of a cello concerto as I have with the LCD-2.  But that's based on how my brain processes the aural signals I get through my recording chain.  Perhaps my brain could be re-trained to do the same thing with a different set of cans.  But the LCD-2's get it right for me, and give me terrific enjoyment.  It doesn't mean they are perfect, by any means.  But NOTHING is perfect.  Fiddling with cables, parametric equalizers or balancing the sound signature with complementary products might improve your ability to be drawn into the music, and give you more enjoyment.  But if you can't use the resulting sound to build the illusion of the event in your head, it's not worth doing any of this stuff.  It's like re-arranging deck chairs on the Titanic.
   
  I'm not at all sure whether neutral helps or hurts the ability to create the illusion of real music.  I know it's very hard to achieve, and many people spend wild sums to do so.  But for me, it's all about the music, so when I get that working I lose interest in fussing around with equipment.
   
  Just my $.02


----------



## zilch0md

Thanks for the very specific recommendation ST, including which tubes to try!   I appreciate your input.
   
  I can't help but notice that the highlighted traits, below, describe the LCD-2 perfectly!   
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  That's indeed what I need for the T1.
   
  Mike
   
  Quote: 





justin_time said:


> Oh, making the T1 to sound like the LCD-2 is very difficult.
> 
> *My guess is that you should look for am amp with good upper bass, lush but in you face midrange and somewhat rolled-off treble*: tube!  Not tube hybrid but tube. You have 7 tubes to roll!!!
> 
> ...


----------



## Duncan

Quote: 





demonfox said:


> That makes me hopeful. I have a Burson HA-160DS that will be here hopefully by weeks end or early next week. Basically its just a smaller 160D without the pre-amp and extra inputs that I have zero use for anyway. So far I've read that the amp section is quite good and pack all kinds of punch but the DAC is still above average but not on par with the amp section. Either way both will be huge upgrades to what I have right now. So I'm smiling either way


 
  Having the 160D, I can confirm that you're right on the money, the DAC section isn't as good as the amp section (sounds a bit thin in comparison)...
   
  Congrats on getting the 160DS, I'm sure you'll love it as much as I do


----------



## a-widodo

Has anyone here ever tried pairing LCD-2 with hifiman HM-801 using balanced amp module?
  How does that portable setup fare with the current desktop offering?


----------



## Justin_Time

deadears said:


> I'm not sure that I agree that the objective is to have sound as free from colorations as possible either.  I think the objective is to recreate a musical event inside your head.  Your ears are interpreting a wave of sonic information, and your brain is filling in the blanks.  So much of what happens is idiosyncratic to the individual.  You are building an illusion, but the "reality" of that illusion can be enhanced by absence of noise, reduced distortion, a broader set of frequencies at their correct respective levels, and full harmonic dimensionality delivered on time.
> 
> 
> ........
> ...




That's the age old difference in taste.

I believe the role of reproducing the music as faithfully as possible to the way it sounds in the concert hall, for classical music, belongs to the recording engineer.

In a perfect world, the source (analog or digital), the amplification and the transducers (speakers, headphones) should, or dare I say MUST be a neutral or transparent chain in the music reproduction,adding or substracting a little as possible to or from the recorded music.

Reality is of course far from ideality. Each link of the chain (source, amplification, transducer) adds colorations to the music or subtract some crucial information from it.

So as a listener of music, I feel my role is to try the best I can to RESTORE the sound of the music the way that the recording engineer intent for me to hear it. My best guide is my remembrance of the way music sound in the concert hall. I attempt to faithfully the recorded music by judiciously selecting my source, the amplifier and the headphone (plus cable) i use. I think this is a valid attempt to deliver the kind of sound that is closest to the live music in the concert hall. With headphones, this is of course nearly impossible but that should not stop me from trying.

I achieve this by carefully matching the link of the chain to minimize their sonic colorations, which may be additive or substractive. That is what I meant by "neutral" sound but perhaps the word "transparent" may have been a better choice. Your choice might be to CHANGE the sound to suit your taste. That's a legitimate approach as well.

Finally, I would not put the use of parametric equalizer in the same bucket as matching components in the sonic chain (different amps and cables for a pair of headphones). This is a more brutal--sledge-hammer-- assault on the reproduced sound that introduced their own colorations which are far worse, in my opinion, than the colorations they are attempting to correct. 


cheers,

ST


----------



## Duncan

Quote: 





justin_time said:


> So as a listener of music, I feel my role is to try the best I can to RESTORE the sound of the music the way that the recording engineer intent for me to hear it. My best guide is my remembrance of the way music sound in the concert hall. I attempt to faithfully the recorded music by judiciously selecting my source, the amplifier and the headphone (plus cable) i use. I think this is a valid attempt to deliver the kind of sound that is closest to the live music in the concert hall. With headphones, this is of course nearly impossible but that should not stop me from trying.


 
  QFT...
   
  I am exactly the same, having an [admittedly, fading] recollection of my theatre and concert hall visits, how they sounded, I've yet to hear anything remotely like that, however, the LCD2's sound far more like those memories than the likes of the Senn HD800 that the Audeze replaced...
   
  In a similar vein, for out on the road - the FAD FI-BA-SB sound the nearest to my past experiences than any other IEM I've heard... compromises, but - good compromises.


----------



## zilch0md

Quote: 





justin_time said:


> [snip]
> 
> Finally, I would not put the use of parametric equalizer in the same bucket as matching components in the sonic chain (different amps and cables for a pair of headphones). This is a more brutal--sledge-hammer-- assault on the reproduced sound that introduced their own colorations which are far worse, in my opinion, than the colorations they are attempting to correct.
> 
> ...


 
   
  +1
   
  I've yet to use a digital EQ that doesn't corrupt the cleanness of a pure tone, as when playing Bink Audio Test files (WAV).  Try sending a clean, 50 Hz tone to your headphones first with and then without +2 dB applied at or near 50 Hz.  It's horrible - like taking a coffee grinder to the signal.    Try this with a pure tone at any frequency.   The corruption is not as easy to hear when listening to actual music, but it's there, just the same.
   
  I would love to find a parametric EQ plugin for Foobar 2000 (or any other Windows player) that can pass this test - increasing the amplitude of a pure tone test signal without altering it in any other way.
   
  Mike


----------



## solserenade

zilch0md said:


> +1
> 
> I've yet to use a digital EQ that doesn't corrupt the cleanness of a pure tone, as when playing Bink Audio Test files (WAV).  Try sending a clean, 50 Hz tone to your headphones first with and then without +2 dB applied at or near 50 Hz.  It's horrible - like taking a coffee grinder to the signal.    Try this with a pure tone at any frequency.   The corruption is not as easy to hear when listening to actual music, but it's there, just the same.
> 
> ...




What do you think about EQ the other way around-in other words decreasing by two dB … Does it degrade the signal in the same way?


----------



## zilch0md

Quote: 





solserenade said:


> What do you think about EQ the other way around-in other words decreasing by two dB … Does it degrade the signal in the same way?


 
   
  Yes, it does.      
   
  There is no workaround.


----------



## Justin_Time

What do you think about EQ the other way around-in other words decreasing by two dB … Does it degrade the signal in the same...


Absolutely. It is not so much the change in frequency distribution but the phase shift that really messes up the sound. The change is more complex than just the emphasis or de-emphasis of certain frequency range, which is easy to recognize. It is a phase shift that is difficult to describe but quite easy to hear. The sound is just...wrong! The impact is both there with (+) or (-) change. Personally I would live with frequency-related colorations than the kind of colorations introduced by parametric equalizer.

ST


----------



## Justin_Time

What do you think about EQ the other way around-in other words decreasing by two dB … Does it degrade the signal in the same...


Absolutely. It is not so much the change in frequency distribution but the phase shift that really messes up the sound. The change is more complex than just the emphasis or de-emphasis of certain frequency range, which is easy to recognize. It is a phase shift that is difficult to describe but quite easy to hear. The sound is just...wrong! The impact is both there with (+) or (-) change. Personally I would live with frequency-related colorations than the kind of colorations introduced by parametric equalizer.

ST


----------



## thegrobe

Hmmm..this discussion makes me rethink my use of EQ. while I do believe I'm getting a positive benefit by bringing my headphones response closer to neutral, is it worth it if it's destroying the sound!? I've only ever concentrated on if music sounds balanced and natural. Never listened specifically if I'm noticing more distortion. 

It seems with all the technology, someone could devise a software EQ that could diminish or completely do away with that issue.

Still, I use just a db or two with a very narrow q to target just a few spots. Maybe the less correction the less distortion? I could see major changes really messing stuff up, like adding a bunch of bass boost, etc. It seems lots of folks do use some EQ, I guess varying degrees of opinion are in play, as it goes in this hobby. Not trying to be argumentative, just learning.


----------



## hekeli

I guess more of a discussion for Sound Science, but how is it possible use EQ in mixing/mastering phase then? Shouldn't it destroy the music result?
   
  There are so many EQ's and methods out there, I doubt the OP has tested them all?


----------



## thegrobe

hekeli said:


> I guess more of a discussion for Sound Science, but how is it possible use EQ in mixing/mastering phase then? Shouldn't it destroy the music result?




I meant to ask that in my post...so curious about that as well. I imagine absurdly expensive professional equipment may have some way to do correct EQ processing. But we're taking about Joe Schmo with his "lowly" home equipment.

Unless there is truly no way around it. Then all music is wrecked from the get-go.
In that case, EQ away!
Lol


----------



## zilch0md

Quote: 





thegrobe said:


> I meant to ask that in my post...so curious about that as well. I imagine absurdly expensive professional equipment may have some way to do correct EQ processing. But we're taking about Joe Schmo with his "lowly" home equipment.
> 
> Unless there is truly no way around it. Then all music is wrecked from the get-go.
> In that case, EQ away!
> Lol


 
   
  Haha!  Makes perfect sense to me!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Yeah, I've barely scratched the surface of all the various EQ solutions, but it would seem that somebody out there must know a "clean" way to do it.
   
  Mike


----------



## citraian

Maybe when mastering they don't EQ and just add a few dbs on the desired instrument (since they have the music already separated by different instruments/sounds). Just a guess...


----------



## zilch0md

Quote: 





citraian said:


> Maybe when mastering they don't EQ and just add a few dbs on the desired instrument (since they have the music already separated by different instruments/sounds). Just a guess...


 
   
  I think you're onto it.  I know next to nothing about those giant mixing boards they use in recording studios, but it wouldn't surprise me to learn that there's a discrete pre-amp for each channel.  But that hunch is purely analog in thinking.  I would think that these days, all the mixing is done in the digital domain, but again, I'm completely clueless.  Somehow, they get the job done better than the toys I've played with.
   
  Mike


----------



## leafs

It seems many people like Lyr. I already targeted LCD-2, currently deciding which amp/dac to get.
   
  I actually look at 3 different setup:
   
  (1) Bifrost & Asgard2
  (2) Bifrost & Lyr
  (3) Burson HA-160DS
   
  I keep coming back and fore between Asgard2 and Lyr. I budget it max at 1.5k but if there is no reason to max out, i.e. get the best, then I should save it.
  Just wondering anyone go from Asgard2 to Lyr, or even Lyr back to Asgard.
   
  I like Burson for its combination, and I heard people prefer to it.
   
  Any advice is welcome.
   
  Cheers


----------



## AManAnd88Keys

Um... why not go for Mjolnir + Gungnir, if your budget is up to 1.5k?


----------



## preproman

Get the Mjolnir at least.  Great with the LCDs..


----------



## citraian

Or Burson Conductor...


----------



## varyV

For the 2s, get a good amp..ie the Soloist. Also, if you have the budget, get the Schiit stack. You can't go wrong.


----------



## Justin_Time

zilch0md said:


> I think you're onto it.  I know next to nothing about those giant mixing boards they use in recording studios, but it wouldn't surprise me to learn that there's a discrete pre-amp for each channel.  But that hunch is purely analog in thinking.  I would think that these days, all the mixing is done in the digital domain, but again, I'm completely clueless.  Somehow, they get the job done better than the toys I've played with.
> 
> Mike
> [/qu


----------



## leafs

Quote: 





amanand88keys said:


> Um... why not go for Mjolnir + Gungnir, if your budget is up to 1.5k?


 
   
  Quote: 





preproman said:


> Get the Mjolnir at least.  Great with the LCDs..


 
   
  Quote: 





citraian said:


> Or Burson Conductor...


 
   
  Quote: 





varyv said:


> For the 2s, get a good amp..ie the Soloist. Also, if you have the budget, get the Schiit stack. You can't go wrong.


 
   
  Quote: 





justin_time said:


>


 
   
  Many thanks for the feedback. Is my fault that I forgotten to indicate SGD for my budget, but no worries. I am open to hear about other brands or models. I'll do some search on those mention and hopefully I can work within my constraint.
   
  Thanks again. Cheers!


----------



## Justin_Time

I do not know your sound preference so it is hard to know what to recommend. The LCD2 has a very coherent sound, excellent bass, smooth mid range with very tight focus. These headphones also have distinctive flaws: small soundstage, not the last words in transparency and an overall dark character to the sound that many love and some hate.

My personal preference for amps under $1500 that have listened to with the LCD2 for at least 25-50 hours.
Vioelectric V200 ($900)
Bryston BHA-1 ($1300)
Schiit Mjolnir ($750)
RWA Corvina($1,100 discounted)

If you can afford it, do replace the cable with OCC silver cable with XLR 4-pin termination for use with balanced amp (for best impact) and an adaptor tail to 1/4" plug.

Have fun!


----------



## Francoy

Regarding EQ... if you hear distortion when EQing the sound by a few dbs, it means your EQ’s not up for it. A correct EQ functions just like any resistor does (which any system has plenty of in the electric path) when applying negative dbs. Yes, recording engineers use EQs. So do radio stations, live performance "sound guys"/DJs and technicians... Theoretically, when an engineer voices an amp, they tweak the sound practically the same way an equalizer does - only with different components, signal path, etc.
   
  And if you have a Mac by the way you have a pro-level 31 band EQ built in the system. You only need the right app that can access it (like Logic - or for a lot cheaper Vox).
   
  Now if you will excuse me, I will go and put on my fire retardant suit...


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





citraian said:


> Or Burson Conductor...


 
  Conductor is Soloist with a DAC.


----------



## citraian

Quote: 





defqon said:


> Conductor is Soloist with a DAC.


 
  I know. He will need a dac too, won't he?


----------



## zilch0md

Thanks for this Francoy!
   
  There's hope after all!  
   
  My daughter has a Macbook Pro. I'll see if I can't experiment with it sometime soon.
   
  Mike
   
  Quote: 





francoy said:


> Regarding EQ... if you hear distortion when EQing the sound by a few dbs, it means your EQ’s not up for it. A correct EQ functions just like any resistor does (which any system has plenty of in the electric path) when applying negative dbs. Yes, recording engineers use EQs. So do radio stations, live performance "sound guys"/DJs and technicians... Theoretically, when an engineer voices an amp, they tweak the sound practically the same way an equalizer does - only with different components, signal path, etc.
> 
> And if you have a Mac by the way you have a pro-level 31 band EQ built in the system. You only need the right app that can access it (like Logic - or for a lot cheaper Vox).
> 
> Now if you will excuse me, I will go and put on my fire retardant suit...


----------



## stang

Hey everyone. I'm very interested in purchasing the LCD-2 rev 2 (not just yet though as I need to sell a few things to afford them). I compared them to my DT880 600ohm at a local headphone store and to a pair of T1 all powered by a Schiit Modi (I know, not the best) and a Bryston BHA-1. I have decided I do not like the T1 (soundstage is just too huge for my liking, much larger than DT880). The LCD-2 sounded fantastic out of the single ended output of the BHA-1, but I just wish the soundstage was that little bit wider. Perhaps going balanced would fix this or another amplifier would be better for my tastes (although I have read the BHA-1 is amazing with the LCD-2, so perhaps the LCD-2 just don't have the soundstage I am after, but pretty much everything else is what I want). I plan on going there soon with my balanced Buffalo II DAC (should arrive by the end of the week I hope), but won't be trying the BHA-1 again (due to the fact I could never afford it). I am more in the price range of $700-$1000 for an amplifier. I can try my DAC with the LCD-2 on a number of amplifiers (must have balanced in and out, of course, as I want to take full advantage of my DAC), including the Schiit Mjolnir, Audio-GD NFB-6 (simply because it leaves me with plenty of money for good XLR cables and a good LCD-2 cable, although if the other amps are significantly better, I will definitely try to stretch for them) as well as the Woo Audio 2 (want to know how LCD-2 sounds on tubes, even though it is out of my price range). Would you recommend I try out any other amplifiers? I will be going to this store again: http://www.addictedtoaudio.com.au/ So would any of you recommend I try out any other amplifiers (that are listed on the website), or have I pretty much got everything sorted out? Cheers.


----------



## Monir

Quote: 





stang said:


> Hey everyone. I'm very interested in purchasing the LCD-2 rev 2 (not just yet though as I need to sell a few things to afford them). I compared them to my DT880 600ohm at a local headphone store and to a pair of T1 all powered by a Schiit Modi (I know, not the best) and a Bryston BHA-1. I have decided I do not like the T1 (soundstage is just too huge for my liking, much larger than DT880). The LCD-2 sounded fantastic out of the single ended output of the BHA-1, but I just wish the soundstage was that little bit wider. Perhaps going balanced would fix this or another amplifier would be better for my tastes (although I have read the BHA-1 is amazing with the LCD-2, so perhaps the LCD-2 just don't have the soundstage I am after, but pretty much everything else is what I want). I plan on going there soon with my balanced Buffalo II DAC (should arrive by the end of the week I hope), but won't be trying the BHA-1 again (due to the fact I could never afford it). I am more in the price range of $700-$1000 for an amplifier. I can try my DAC with the LCD-2 on a number of amplifiers (must have balanced in and out, of course, as I want to take full advantage of my DAC), including the Schiit Mjolnir, Audio-GD NFB-6 (simply because it leaves me with plenty of money for good XLR cables and a good LCD-2 cable, although if the other amps are significantly better, I will definitely try to stretch for them) as well as the Woo Audio 2 (want to know how LCD-2 sounds on tubes, even though it is out of my price range). Would you recommend I try out any other amplifiers? I will be going to this store again: http://www.addictedtoaudio.com.au/ So would any of you recommend I try out any other amplifiers (that are listed on the website), or have I pretty much got everything sorted out? Cheers.


 

 Among the solid state amps I've tried I found the Yulong A18 to have the best soundstage. It can be run balanced, but I am not sure about it being truly balanced judging by the posts in the review thread.


----------



## DefQon

George should have the Mjonir in so not sure, I'd personally call it end game with the LCD2's and that amp. Didn't know A2A had the BHA-01 in.


----------



## stang

Quote: 





monir said:


> Among the solid state amps I've tried I found the Yulong A18 to have the best soundstage. It can be run balanced, but I am not sure about it being truly balanced judging by the posts in the review thread.


 
   
  The great thing about the A18 is that it's not too expensive, but I would definitely have to try it out before purchasing it. I don't know if Addicted to Audio have any plans to stock Yulong products. 
   
  Quote: 





defqon said:


> George should have the Mjonir in so not sure, I'd personally call it end game with the LCD2's and that amp. Didn't know A2A had the BHA-01 in.


 
   
  Yes, the Mjolnir was there, I saw it, but my aim for today was to decide if I enjoyed the overall sound signature of the LCD-2, and I do. That and I was reserving balanced testing until I get my Buffalo II to bring in. The BHA-1 was just sitting there on the desk where I sat down and I knew it was a great amp (had no idea how it was praised with the LCD-2 as I didn't look up on it before I got there). So the Mjolnir pairs that well with the LCD-2, huh? I will definitely have to give it a go. I'm thinking that while I would love to own another tube amp, it just won't be the best combination with the LCD-2 for my tastes, especially since I wanted a bit more SS sound out of the LCD-2 even with the BHA-1, which, from what I've read, is far from tube sounding.


----------



## citraian

Mjolnir is SS


----------



## stang

Quote: 





citraian said:


> Mjolnir is SS


 
  I know  Perhaps my grammar isn't the best if I came off as saying it's tube 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Or are you saying I should like it since it is SS? Hopefully I find at least one amp that I want to save up for. I suppose the cost of the amp will affect my decision of whether to buy the LCD-2.2 first or the amplifier. I still have to sell all my stuff in the classifieds to afford even one


----------



## citraian

"So the Mjolnir pairs that well with the LCD-2, huh? I will definitely have to give it a go. I'm thinking that while I would love to own another tube amp..."
   
  This passage made me believe that you think Mjolnir is a tube amp. My bad 
   
  As a side note, I really like the Burson Conductor with my LCD-2s. It opened them considerately compared with my old ASUS Xonar Essence One.


----------



## preproman

I agree the Mjo can be a end game amp with the LCD-2.2s.  Now the Schiit Statement amp is on it's way out as well.  I like my LCD-3s with Mojo and the BHA-1.  However, the Mojo cost less and is just as good if not better.


----------



## citraian

How about the LCD-3s with GS-X. Don't you like that better?


----------



## preproman

I'll have to do a side by side.  I didn't have them both at the same time.


----------



## stang

Well unfortunately the soloist is only single ended. My DAC is only balanced out (I believe the RCA is the preamp output, but I may have to double check on that), hence I am only looking at balanced amplifiers. Now you're all making me very eager to try out the Mjolnir


----------



## commtrd

Quote: 





preproman said:


> I agree the Mjo can be a end game amp with the LCD-2.2s.  Now the Schiit Statement amp is on it's way out as well.  I like my LCD-3s with Mojo and the BHA-1.  However, the Mojo cost less and is just as good if not better.


 
  +1 Absolutely do agree. The Mjolnir is a beautiful match for the LCD2s. I expect it will be just as synergistic with the new LCD3s I should be receiving shortly. The amp is a brute as far as power goes and it is absolutely neutral and clean from black to ear-bleed levels in my experience. I emailed Jason to ask him about possibly using the HD800 with the amp and he said they use it with the HD800 daily. For the money I spent to buy it (<$1000) I am totally happy with it. Can't comment on any other amps used with the LCDs personally but can recommend the Mjolnir.


----------



## aqsw

Quote: 





dave1109 said:


> I've been thinking about trying a tube amp for my lcd 2's,
> any recommendations $1000 to $1500 price range, maybe a little more ?
> I've been looking at Decware and Woo amps, should I be looking
> at any thing else ?


 
  wait for the schiit statement. u can go ss or valves. I've been waiting for about 6 months now. My Lyr and Bifrst are toast when the sttements arrive.


----------



## DefQon

Didn't know about a new Schiit statement amp coming out ~ any further details on it? Tube/SS, SE/bal?


----------



## Lappy27

Quote: 





stang said:


> Well unfortunately the soloist is only single ended. My DAC is only balanced out (I believe the RCA is the preamp output, but I may have to double check on that), hence I am only looking at balanced amplifiers. Now you're all making me very eager to try out the Mjolnir


 
  Hi Stang, I have the BHA-1 since june 2012 paired with my beloved LCD-2 and can attest that I find the synergy absolutely fantastic between the two. In fact, I have never read a comment that did not praised the synergy of this headphones and amp combo.
   
  I had the chance to compare the Bryston to the Mjolnir one night at a headfier's house. I prefered the Bryston. More refined but still with alot of energy. dleblanc323 was there that night and he later had the two amps to compare. He also prefered the Bryston.
   
  As much that I like my LCD-2, the only component I don't see myself upgrading for a long time, is my BHA-1. I already changed my dac since. But this amp is here to stay.
   
  Also, if you haven't heard the LCD-2 with the BHA-1 in balanced configuration, prepare yourself to be stunned compare to the single out if you have the chance (or misfortune for your wallet) to do so.
   
  The BHA-1 maybe a stretch of about $300 over your maxout budget but I really think the sacrifices will be really rewarded.
   
  Buy it nice or buy it twice.
   
  Cheers.
   
  Steve


----------



## PhaedraCorruption

Quote: 





lappy27 said:


> Hi Stang, I have the BHA-1 since june 2012 paired with my beloved LCD-2 and can attest that I find the synergy absolutely fantastic between the two. In fact, I have never read a comment that did not praised the synergy of this headphones and amp combo.
> 
> I had the chance to compare the Bryston to the Mjolnir one night at a headfier's house. I prefered the Bryston. More refined but still with alot of energy. dleblanc323 was there that night and he later had the two amps to compare. He also prefered the Bryston.
> 
> ...


 
   
  I wonder if there is a huge loss going unbalanced from the DAC to the BHA-1 then balanced to the LCD-2 versus going fully balanced from the DAC to amp to LCD-2. 
  Usually I would think there would be a huge difference, but I'm hearing some talk about how the BHA-1 is not a fully balanced amp to begin with.
   
  It seems that DACs with BAL are quite up there in price.


----------



## stang

Quote: 





lappy27 said:


> Hi Stang, I have the BHA-1 since june 2012 paired with my beloved LCD-2 and can attest that I find the synergy absolutely fantastic between the two. In fact, I have never read a comment that did not praised the synergy of this headphones and amp combo.
> 
> I had the chance to compare the Bryston to the Mjolnir one night at a headfier's house. I prefered the Bryston. More refined but still with alot of energy. dleblanc323 was there that night and he later had the two amps to compare. He also prefered the Bryston.
> 
> ...


 
   
  I don't know if I want to hear the BHA-1 balanced with the LCD-2, because I know I could never then settle for anything worse, but also wouldn't be able to afford the BHA-1 full stop. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 As I live in Australia, brand new they are $1600-$1700 and they would be even more expensive if I were to import one (taxes etc). The only way I could afford one if I could purchase one used off these forums etc in Australia. Even then, it is still ~$700 more than the Mjolnir brand new, which is a lot of money for a uni student


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





defqon said:


> Didn't know about a new Schiit statement amp coming out ~ any further details on it? Tube/SS, SE/bal?


 
  Pf. Get your head out of the sand. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Linky


----------



## DefQon

It shows how rarely I go through the other threads besides the ones I'm subscribed to, awesome stuff hopefully it's still affordable for me.


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





defqon said:


> It shows how rarely I go through the other threads besides the ones I'm subscribed to, awesome stuff hopefully it's still affordable for me.


 
  C'mon get out and mingle!


----------



## taleniekov

Hey, I just got my LCD-2! Ive been using it with Schiit Modi/magni, but the Magni is way too bright for my taste.
  Are there any amps that can beef up the bass and make the LCD-2 sound warmer?


----------



## PinkLed

> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  I was this close to buying an Mjolnir + Gungjir or Conductor last night until I saw the post about the Statement. Hopefully it works well with the HD 800s as well as the LCD-2. End game for me could be only a few more months away! Cost may be high but the value will be there. Good Schiit.


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





pinkled said:


> I was this close to buying an Mjolnir + Gungjir or Conductor last night until I saw the post about the Statement. Hopefully it works well with the HD 800s as well as the LCD-2. End game for me could be only a few more months away! Cost may be high but the value will be there. Good Schiit.


 
   
  Might be awhile..


----------



## Justin_Time

Quote: 





stang said:


> I don't know if I want to hear the BHA-1 balanced with the LCD-2, because I know I could never then settle for anything worse, but also wouldn't be able to afford the BHA-1 full stop.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Stang,
   
  Since no headphones are completely neutral--i.e. not sterile but transparent with no coloration across the audible range--the objective is not to find the highest-quality amp or the most neutral (transparent) amp--that's relatively easy--but it is rather to find an amp that compensates for the LCD2/3 shortcomings (restricted soundstage, dominant  mid-bass, in-your-face presentation, dark coloration over midrange and treble) while preserving their strength (tight focus, coherent sound across audible rannge--a rare quality--good bass impact).
   
  I found that tube amps do not generally match the LCD2/3 well though some tube-_hybrid_ amps fare very well--the Cavalli LF, RWA Corvina/Bellina and Apex Peak/Volcano came immediately to mind.  There are, however, many SS amps that may not be the last work in neutrality or transparency but for that very reason match the LCD2/3 very well.  As I have stated in an earlier post, among the amps that I have owned, the following are excellent companions to the LCD, with prices that are affordable or not too unreasonable:
   
  Vioelectric V200 ($900)--nice and clean sound, with excellent impact 
 Bryston BHA-1 ($1300)--more open sound than the V200; plenty of power (balanced); very neutral but somewhat unexciting at times  
 Schiit Mjolnir ($750)--not as clean a sound as the V200 or the BHA-1, but plenty of power (no SE) and just the right amount of sparkles to make the LCD2/3 come alive; this exciting sound can be fatiguing in the long run
 RWA Corvina ($1,100 discounted)--gorgeous sound, especially in the midrange; good blend of impact, transparency and musicality; this is a steal at the lower price as a new but discontinued model

 In all case, I prefer OCC silver cable with the LCD for ultimate transparency, reduced and better proportioned mid-bass volume and overall much bigger dynamic impact.
   
  ST


----------



## Lazyboy_sg

+1 for the Corvina


----------



## OPR8R

I wondered about the Corvina as well (before I settled on a Decware).  It looks like they're not offering them on Audeze's site any longer.


----------



## PinkLed

Lyr with Amperex OG A-frames


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





preproman said:


> Might be awhile..


 
  Yeah, Jason posted that it may be released towards the end of this year or possibly early next year depending on how everything goes though.


----------



## stang

Okay, so I just compared the Schiit Mjolnir to the Bryston BHA-1 with my balanced Buffalo II DAC. I used the LCD-2 with an ALO Reference 8 with 4 pin XLR. In my opinion (so take this with a grain of salt), the Mjolnir sounded great and at times I would be wow'ed at the sound that was coming out of it, but there were also many times where it sounded great, but it didn't blow my mind. When I switched to the Bryston, essentially every song I listened to wow'ed me. As far as comparisons, the Mjolnir seemed to have more bass (quantity) but it was less textured and refined compared to the Bryston. The mids are where the Bryston pulls ahead. They just seem so much more forward and detailed. It really is a noticeable step up in that department, especially for vocals. For the highs, the Mjolnir seemed slightly brighter where the Bryston seemed smoother. Overall I really enjoyed the LCD-2 with both, but the Bryston seemed to have better synergy with the LCD-2. Having said all that, I'm not 100% sure I will go for the Bryston, considering the price difference ($700 for me). I hope to purchase the LCD-2 soon (before an amp) so that I can have some more time to compare the amplifiers to each other. I enjoyed the soundstage on both (must be my Buffalo II making that difference). I just need some people to buy my stuff I have listed so I can get the LCD-2


----------



## leafs

Just bought my LCD-2. I'm pretty much looking at Burson Soloist as my amp, and a DAC (yet to decide brand) to drive the LCD-2. 
   
  Anyone like to share their view on Soloist and their LCD-2 pls?
   
  Cheers


----------



## AManAnd88Keys

Quote: 





leafs said:


> Just bought my LCD-2. I'm pretty much looking at Burson Soloist as my amp, and a DAC (yet to decide brand) to drive the LCD-2.
> 
> Anyone like to share their view on Soloist and their LCD-2 pls?
> 
> Cheers


 

 Search for "Soloist" in this thread, you will find plenty of opinions and impressions.


----------



## leafs

Quote: 





amanand88keys said:


> Search for "Soloist" in this thread, you will find plenty of opinions and impressions.


 
  Yeah man, am working through it.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Cheers


----------



## citraian

If you decide to get the Soloist you can go for the Conductor which is a Soloist with a pretty good dac.


----------



## philo50

Quote: 





citraian said:


> If you decide to get the Soloist you can go for the Conductor which is a Soloist with a pretty good dac.


 
  +1


----------



## leafs

Quote: 





citraian said:


> If you decide to get the Soloist you can go for the Conductor which is a Soloist with a pretty good dac.


 
  Thanks for the recommendation. I did consider Conductor an option, and my local dealer might be able to loan me a demo set to run. Another option is Soloist, but looking for another brand dac could be tricky for me. I'm ain't expert in this field.
   
  I have another consideration when getting amp/dac. That is to have the flexibility to use for my desktop speaker. I'm using Swan M200MKIII with rca.


----------



## citraian

The Conductor can be used to output to your speakers too. That's how I use it


----------



## barid

Quote: 





citraian said:


> The Conductor can be used to output to your speakers too. That's how I use it


 

  Well, to active speakers.  For passives you'd still need a power amp correct?  It doesn't have that kind of juice does it?


----------



## DefQon

Sort of correct. You can use the Burson's with efficient speakers. The inefficient ones that require double digit watts @ whatever ohms require a dedicated power/integrated amplifier to get anywhere sort of decent volume (db).


----------



## Lappy27

Quote: 





stang said:


> Okay, so I just compared the Schiit Mjolnir to the Bryston BHA-1 with my balanced Buffalo II DAC. I used the LCD-2 with an ALO Reference 8 with 4 pin XLR. In my opinion (so take this with a grain of salt), the Mjolnir sounded great and at times I would be wow'ed at the sound that was coming out of it, but there were also many times where it sounded great, but it didn't blow my mind. When I switched to the Bryston, essentially every song I listened to wow'ed me. As far as comparisons, the Mjolnir seemed to have more bass (quantity) but it was less textured and refined compared to the Bryston. The mids are where the Bryston pulls ahead. They just seem so much more forward and detailed. It really is a noticeable step up in that department, especially for vocals. For the highs, the Mjolnir seemed slightly brighter where the Bryston seemed smoother. Overall I really enjoyed the LCD-2 with both, but the Bryston seemed to have better synergy with the LCD-2. Having said all that, I'm not 100% sure I will go for the Bryston, considering the price difference ($700 for me). I hope to purchase the LCD-2 soon (before an amp) so that I can have some more time to compare the amplifiers to each other. I enjoyed the soundstage on both (must be my Buffalo II making that difference). I just need some people to buy my stuff I have listed so I can get the LCD-2


 
  Told you not to listen to the BHA-1 in balanced mode!
   
  Jokes aside, your impression are really similar to mine from when I had the chance to compare the Mjolnir to the BHA-1. Refinement and smoothness goes to the Bryston but still with energic and engaging sound.
   
  There is a Canadian fellow selling his BHA-1 for $1000.00 at canuckaudiomart. Maybe the guy will be willing to ship in Australia.
   
  I don't know if you're like me but once I hear something better and it's within my budget reach (even stretched), I always go for it because I will always regret going for the second choice.
   
  Hence: Buy it nice or buy it twice.


----------



## stang

Quote: 





lappy27 said:


> Told you not to listen to the BHA-1 in balanced mode!
> 
> Jokes aside, your impression are really similar to mine from when I had the chance to compare the Mjolnir to the BHA-1. Refinement and smoothness goes to the Bryston but still with energic and engaging sound.
> 
> ...


 
  Thanks, I will check it out. Unfortunately I bet someone will get it before I manage to scrape the cash together for it. I was planning on purchasing LCD-2 first unless a great deal on an amp popped up. Nevertheless, it could be a few weeks until I can save the cash to buy either of them. As far as hearing something and saving every penny for it, I typically do this, but the majority of my hobby purchases (not just audio related) have always been around the $300-$500 mark, so it's very difficult for me to spend so much on something (I am also terrible at saving more than a few hundred dollars at any one time). I heard a Stax O2 rig and I was willing to sell everything for them, but luckily (I think) someone snatched them up just as I was listing everything for sale 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Now I just have to play the waiting game unfortunately.


----------



## DefQon

Go Stax, you know you want to, you can't run away forever, the temptation only increases.


----------



## leafs

Quote: 





citraian said:


> The Conductor can be used to output to your speakers too. That's how I use it


 
  Can I check that your connection to speakers are : source --> conductor --> DAC output to speakers?
   
  Quote: 





barid said:


> Well, to active speakers.  For passives you'd still need a power amp correct?  It doesn't have that kind of juice does it?


 
   
  Quote: 





defqon said:


> Sort of correct. You can use the Burson's with efficient speakers. The inefficient ones that require double digit watts @ whatever ohms require a dedicated power/integrated amplifier to get anywhere sort of decent volume (db).


 
   
  Thanks for the input mates. My speakers are active type.


----------



## citraian

Yep, I have PC > Conductor > Active speakers via DAC OUT


----------



## leafs

Thanks mate. I will seriously consider Conductor. I need to work within budget, but I might just stretch for it if possible.


----------



## kothganesh

Quote: 





defqon said:


> Go Stax, you know you want to, you can't run away forever, the temptation only increases.


 
  You're bad for my wallet 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




; looking at the SR-009 but man, that price !


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





kothganesh said:


> You're bad for my wallet
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  hehe you don't need to go for the 009 straight away, even the lower tier Lambda's are better than a large percentage of headphones out there including some flagships. If you like a fairly warm or slightly dark sounding stat, the 007 mk1, if you want neutral with bit of brightness but airy presentation the 009. The 009 actually sound like some of the vintage Lambda's on roids unlike the 007 mk1.
   
  But if you do end up aiming for the 007 or 009, I recommend listening to one first before buying, not worth it wasting your hard earned money on an impulse purchase without hearing it first hand first.


----------



## kothganesh

Quote: 





defqon said:


> hehe you don't need to go for the 009 straight away, even the lower tier Lambda's are better than a large percentage of headphones out there including some flagships. If you like a fairly warm or slightly dark sounding stat, the 007 mk1, if you want neutral with bit of brightness but airy presentation the 009. The 009 actually sound like some of the vintage Lambda's on roids unlike the 007 mk1.
> 
> But if you do end up aiming for the 007 or 009, I recommend listening to one first before buying, not worth it wasting your hard earned money on an impulse purchase without hearing it first hand first.


 
  Thanks. I am looking for the LCD sound but with a bigger soundstage and a bit more airiness. Actually, I've preordered the Kingsound so let's see where that takes me up the electrostats path. Finally, India sucks in the sense that there is no store here that carries any of these brands (I see a lot of Beats ugh !); hence any purchase of mine (have the 2.2s and the HE 400 & 500) comes from reading up on our community threads and pure instinct.


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





defqon said:


> hehe you don't need to go for the 009 straight away, even the lower tier Lambda's are better than a large percentage of headphones out there including some flagships. If you like a fairly warm or slightly dark sounding stat, the 007 mk1, if you want neutral with bit of brightness but airy presentation the 009. The 009 actually sound like some of the vintage Lambda's on roids unlike the 007 mk1.
> 
> But if you do end up aiming for the 007 or 009, I recommend listening to one first before buying, not worth it wasting your hard earned money on an impulse purchase without hearing it first hand first.


 
  Hey - what flagships would you say you prefer the lower / higher tier Lambda's over (What Lambda's)?  I ask because I want to look into that headphone.


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





kothganesh said:


> Thanks. *I am looking for the LCD sound but with a bigger soundstage and a bit more airiness*. Actually, I've preordered the Kingsound so let's see where that takes me up the electrostats path. Finally, India sucks in the sense that there is no store here that carries any of these brands (I see a lot of Beats ugh !); hence any purchase of mine (have the 2.2s and the HE 400 & 500) comes from reading up on our community threads and pure instinct.


 
  I see a SR-007 MK1 in your future.
   
  Quote: 





preproman said:


> Hey - what flagships would you say "you" prefer the lower / higher tier Lambda's over (What Lambda's)?  I ask because I want to look into that headphone.


 
  If characterising by sound the most amount of advantages.
   
  Prefer the Lambda, Lambda Nova Signature, Lambda Pro, Sigma Pro, Gamma Pro, SR-407, SR-202 and the SR-303 over my LCD2's, all the Hifiman except the HE-6 (haven't heard it long enough nor on proper gear), every Beyerdynamic can's made except the vintage DT150, all Denons and nearly all the Sennheiser except the HD580/600 and the 800.
   
  Vintage:
  The original Lambda's have a godly mid-range and quite damn neutral sounding.
  The Lambda Nova Signature is possibly one of the most neutral sounding Lambda frame earspeaker made, some say the Lambda Signature is more but I haven't heard one so cannot comment.
  The Lambda Pro is most the dynamic and bass fulfilling out of the Lambda frame family, run this off a SRD-7SB/MK2 energizer off an amp with bass and treble dial and enjoy some quality low-ends. Sort of U-shaped.
  The Gamma Pro's, very forward sounding but not bright, lots of quality low-end when music requires it, great for rock and metal on a well powered amplifier. Think of a Grado PS1k but without the mid range mess in the PS1k.
  Sigma Pro's have a very unique 3d sound presentation as if you are center position of a live performance in the auditorium, not front row nor the last row, just in the center. Not much bass due to the distance and positioning of the transducers to the ears but no other headphone has been able to recreate the soundstage and holographic imaging of this stat imo.
   
  Modernish Vintage:
  SR-202, balanced sounding, bit bright sometimes but has great depth and layering capabilities. Sort of reminds me of a treble tilted Lambda Nova Sig. Bit bass light compared to some of the vintages.
  SR-303, balanced sounding and sort of laid back and relax sounding having the traits of the SR-202 and the 404, bit bass light compared to some of the vintages.
   
  Modern in production:
  SR-407, easily better than the 507 and 307 in my opinion. The 507 is just damn sterile and cold sounding but a detail monster. 407 is sort of balanced sounding but supposedly some have reported putting on 507 pads makes it better in the detail compartment.
   
  Others worth mentioning:
  SR-Omega: Detail monster and very large soundstage
  SR-007mk1: If the LCD3 had sex with the HD800 and had its sibling in fit shape with some balancing. To some it could be bit laid back or dark sounding.
  SR-207, need to hear this in depth but well regarded here. Spritzer loves it and the SR-2170 package (SR-207 + SRM-253 amp) is a good $600 package to e-stat sound.


----------



## preproman

Wow Def..  That's a lot of info.  "Thanks" 
   
  OK.  So for a stepping stone on the way up to the 009s - What will pair well with a KGSSHV that I can get my hands on?


----------



## Justin_Time

Y





opr8r said:


> I wondered about the Corvina as well (before I settled on a Decware).  It looks like they're not offering them on Audeze's site any longer.




You can buy it directly from Vinniefor of Red Wine Audio..

Since it has been replaced by a newer model, you can get it at a discount if they are still available--$1100 instead of $1500.

Cheers,

ST


----------



## kothganesh

defqon said:


> I see a SR-007 MK1 in your future.
> 
> If characterising by sound the most amount of advantages.
> 
> ...



Wow, you my man are just awesome. What a primer on the stats. I am now at Defcon 1 . But before I pull the trigger, is there a mk2 and how different is it to the mk1 ?


----------



## OPR8R

Quote: 





justin_time said:


> Y
> You can buy it directly from Vinniefor of Red Wine Audio..
> 
> Since it has been replaced by a newer model, you can get it at a discount if they are still available--$1100 instead of $1500.
> ...


 
  $1100 seems like a good deal.  I would think it would be a step up from the <$1000 amps.


----------



## Lappy27

Quote: 





stang said:


> Thanks, I will check it out. Unfortunately I bet someone will get it before I manage to scrape the cash together for it. I was planning on purchasing LCD-2 first unless a great deal on an amp popped up. Nevertheless, it could be a few weeks until I can save the cash to buy either of them. As far as hearing something and saving every penny for it, I typically do this, but the majority of my hobby purchases (not just audio related) have always been around the $300-$500 mark, so it's very difficult for me to spend so much on something (I am also terrible at saving more than a few hundred dollars at any one time). I heard a Stax O2 rig and I was willing to sell everything for them, but luckily (I think) someone snatched them up just as I was listing everything for sale
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Maybe I will put my hands on LCD-3 soon. If I decided to keep the LCD-3, I will probably put my LCD-2 on sale.
   
  I will PM you first to know if you're ready and interested. I will make you a good price.
   
  Steve


----------



## stang

Quote: 





lappy27 said:


> Maybe I will put my hands on LCD-3 soon. If I decided to keep the LCD-3, I will probably put my LCD-2 on sale.
> 
> I will PM you first to know if you're ready and interested. I will make you a good price.
> 
> Steve


 
  Thanks very much. I will PM you when I happen to get enough money etc.


----------



## FredrikT92

Which amp would you guys recommend for a guy who likes alot of house/nu disco/electro music?
  Bryston BHA 1? V200?


----------



## MattTCG

I'm wondering how the lcd2 responds to vintage receivers. Sorry if this has already been posted.


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





preproman said:


> Wow Def..  That's a lot of info.  "Thanks"
> 
> OK.  So for a stepping stone on the way up to the 009s - What will pair well with a KGSSHV that I can get my hands on?


 
  Sorry for late reply, didn't see this one.
   
  SR-007MK1 but honestly hard to give recommendations as I don't know your preferences. Unless you can go on a hunt for a pair of SR-Omega's. Must listen to it first to hear what you like.
   


matttcg said:


> I'm wondering how the lcd2 responds to vintage receivers. Sorry if this has already been posted.


 

  Yes but also depends on the vintage amplifier/receiver.


----------



## MattTCG

^^ Thanks. Are there any specific vintage receivers that seem to do well with the LCD2's that you know of?


----------



## sling5s

Quote: 





matttcg said:


> ^^ Thanks. Are there any specific vintage receivers that seem to do well with the LCD2's that you know of?


 
  Pioneer has best synergy.  Sansui and Kenwood might be good too.  Marantz depending on the model maybe too warm for them.


----------



## MattTCG

I have always wanted to reacquire a nice Pioneer receiver. It was my very first foray into good audio back when I was barely a teenager. It's seems fitting to look into a Pioneer now.
   
  Thanks for your help...


----------



## sling5s

I have the V200 and love them.  I have not heard Bryston but from what I've read, it's more neutral.  
  I'm guessing for more dynamic and fun factor (and sometimes electronic music can be bright), the V200 might be your choice.
  The mjolnir too might be a great choice for greater bass impact than both V200 and Bryston, but they are slightly brighter than both.
   
  Quote: 





fredrikt92 said:


> Which amp would you guys recommend for a guy who likes alot of house/nu disco/electro music?
> Bryston BHA 1? V200?


----------



## FredrikT92

What about the soloist then? As I understood, the conductor pretty much is a soloist with a DAC?


----------



## citraian

I find Conductor great with electronic music


----------



## formula1

Quote: 





citraian said:


> I find Conductor great with electronic music


 
   
  Echoing citraian,
  the conductor plays nicely most of the genres i throw at it. It have well defined bass, and keeps to the pace of the songs.


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





sling5s said:


> Marantz depending on the model maybe too warm for them.


 
  Yes!


----------



## leafs

Hi all, I would like to hear some opinion. Burson Conductor may be out of my budget and I would like to know what is the second preferred option to drive LCD-2. Not going for Conductor SL since there is no dac out.
   
  I narrow down to a few which were popular for LCD-2:
  (1) Burson HA-160D
  (2) Burson Soloist + entry level dac 
  (3) Woo Audio WA7
  (4) Centrance Dacmini CX
   
  My concern for (2) is the synergy of dac due to different brands.
   
  Cheers


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





leafs said:


> Hi all, I would like to hear some opinion. Burson Conductor may be out of my budget and I would like to know what is the second preferred option to drive LCD-2. Not going for Conductor SL since there is no dac out.
> 
> I narrow down to a few which were popular for LCD-2:
> (1) Burson HA-160D
> ...


 
  DAC and Amp synergy not so much exists just a matter of sound matching. Bright/neutral amp + neutral DAC, you always want the DAC to be as neutral as possible, hearing is believing. Synergy between amp's and headphones make the night and day difference. 
   
  For the LCD2's, the Soloist is good (not my favourite). The bright or slight neutrality of the Soloist cancels out or balances the laid back tonality of the LCD2's. A good entry level DAC would either be the Schiit Modi or the ODAC. Both are neutral sounding and good for the value with the ODAC bit more expensive.


----------



## commtrd

Not seeing as selections for use with LCD2s: the Schiit Gungnir dac and Mjolnir amp. Not knowing what budget is but still these two components are just awesome with the LCDs. I will be using them with my new 3s when I get them. Would most definitely recommend at least thinking about these components if they fit in the budget.


----------



## leafs

Quote: 





defqon said:


> DAC and Amp synergy not so much exists just a matter of sound matching. Bright/neutral amp + neutral DAC, you always want the DAC to be as neutral as possible, hearing is believing. Synergy between amp's and headphones make the night and day difference.
> 
> For the LCD2's, the Soloist is good (not my favourite). The bright or slight neutrality of the Soloist cancels out or balances the laid back tonality of the LCD2's. A good entry level DAC would either be the Schiit Modi or the ODAC. Both are neutral sounding and good for the value with the ODAC bit more expensive.


 
  Thanks for sharing. I'm considering pairing Soloist with Modi for a start. Then upgrade the dac at a later stage. I will look into odac too. 
  Quote: 





commtrd said:


> Not seeing as selections for use with LCD2s: the Schiit Gungnir dac and Mjolnir amp. Not knowing what budget is but still these two components are just awesome with the LCDs. I will be using them with my new 3s when I get them. Would most definitely recommend at least thinking about these components if they fit in the budget.


 
  I took them off my list when I got a quote from my local direct dealer. I am not sure how they compute the price, but the total price of both actually cost more than Conductor. And the difference is pretty big, which I can get a good cable for my LCD-2. I even find Modi expensive. But all this is due to tax and import fees.
   
  I find the price of Burson and Woo Audio quite reasonable after tax and import fees. Nevertheless, I read great comments on Gungnir and Mjolnir. Good stuff.
   
  Thanks for the opinion.


----------



## Zashoomin

Hello everyone,
  I just got a pair of Audeze's and am in need a recommendation for a DAC and amp.  I currently have a Gamma 2 and Yamaha A-S500 (speaker amp) and was looking to upgrade.  I was looking to spend around $600 for each.  I do not mind buying used or demo gear.  I also don't mind a balanced system but would need to have single ended outputs and inputs as well.  
  I was looking into the Bifrost + Lyr  also about Meier Audio Classic + Daccord.
  Thanks in advance


----------



## DefQon

You'd be downgrading if those Yamaha's internal's are good. 
   
  Try through the headphone out or speaker taps. Personally I'd avoid the Lyr for the LCD2's because it will smear the music due to the already warm/laid back/dark sound sig of the LCD2's. What you need is something that can drive the LCD2's with authority, an amp that is either neutral or bright sounding will pair with the LCD2's wonderfully. Powering them with tubes is the last thing you'd want to do unless you like an extremely coloured warm flabby sound.


----------



## Zashoomin

The Yamaha is quite good but I feel like I could find something better as and also it is very inconvenient for me to plug my headphones into it.  But I definitely feel like I could do better on the synergy as well as the DAC as well. Alright so no Lyr then do you have any recommendations?


----------



## DefQon

Not within $600 for a DAC and amp no. For $1400 yes, the Mjonir + Gungnir or just the Mjornir itself and some cheap DAC.


----------



## stang

It would be great if this thread had a poll... Or perhaps someone wants to begin another thread with a poll... Or perhaps there should be a feature where you can view the most popular/highly rated headphones and then follow a link to a page where there is a list of the most highly recommended amplifiers for those headphones 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Or has that already been made? So many ideas and questions haha.


----------



## DefQon

There was a thread like that but not sure where it went probably locked. Too many variables to distinguish what amp's every LCD2/3 owner thinks is best of the said headphones, then you add in things such as favouritism and bias.


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





defqon said:


> There was a thread like that but not sure where it went probably locked. Too many variables to distinguish what amp's every LCD2/3 owner thinks is best of the said headphones, *then you add in things such as favouritism and bias.*


 
   
  This.  What ever amp someone ownes is the best amp with said headphones..


----------



## leafs

I'm more or less decided on Burson Soloist.
   
  Next is a decent Dac. W4S Dac-2 looks working great though, but currently out of reach.


----------



## jsgraha

I think you may put this on your list of dac. I read somewhere that there's a home trial of this as well.

https://sites.google.com/site/jkciunas/ciunas-dac


----------



## Francoy

Quote: 





leafs said:


> I'm more or less decided on Burson Soloist.
> 
> Next is a decent Dac. W4S Dac-2 looks working great though, but currently out of reach.


 
   
   
  There’s a thread for that™ ;¬)
www.head-fi.org/t/508721/does-anyone-own-the-wyred4sound-dac-2
  (you are probably aware of it, but since your profile doesn’t indicate you’ve participated in it, I thought I’d give you a heads-up)
   
   
  My 2 cents, maybe this : resonessencelabs.com/concero/


----------



## leafs

jsgraha said:


> I think you may put this on your list of dac. I read somewhere that there's a home trial of this as well.
> 
> https://sites.google.com/site/jkciunas/ciunas-dac



 
 Thanks for your input.


----------



## leafs

francoy said:


> There’s a thread for that™ ;¬)
> www.head-fi.org/t/508721/does-anyone-own-the-wyred4sound-dac-2
> (you are probably aware of it, but since your profile doesn’t indicate you’ve participated in it, I thought I’d give you a heads-up)
> 
> ...



 
 Thanks for the links too. Frankly, I get pretty much confuse as i read more and search for more. As in, there are various different brand and higher end ones with more features, but one still does the same job. Interestingly, they sound different from many others opinion. Wow.. What is the best advice for getting dac? Apart from budget. I'm pretty much using my laptop as my source, and i want my dac able to use for my active desktop speakers. But I'm enjoying my read at Wyred4sound DAC 2. Another league from what I see.


----------



## longbowbbs

Quote: 





leafs said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Since W4S has come out with the DAC-2 upgrade you might want to keep an eye out for a used DAC-2. They may be had for close to $1K.


----------



## leafs

longbowbbs said:


> Since W4S has come out with the DAC-2 upgrade you might want to keep an eye out for a used DAC-2. They may be had for close to $1K.



 
 That could be an option, but probably not likely at the present stage due to my constraint in budget. For future upgrade, very likely. I hope to read some feedback when pair with Soloist. Thanks for the heads-up.


----------



## leafs

Ordered Soloist. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Have narrow down to a few dac: 
   
- DacMagic 100
- ODAC
- DAC*iT
- ZDAC
- W4S uDAC
- Concero (Tentatively only, due to price)
   
Which dac will probably pair good, beside Concero? It will be great to hear some feedback. Don't really want to go too far with DAC price, because I assume now that I will upgrade at a later stage. Having say so, I hope to get the best out of this purchase.
   
Cheers


----------



## longbowbbs

I had the Dac Magic Plus and I currently have the W4S DAC-2. Between the two the DMPlus was brighter. Nice mids and highs's. The W4S has better overall balance and really makes the low end firm and precise. With my rig, the W4S provides superior synergy, however, the DM's brighter character may pair better with the LCD-2's.


----------



## leafs

Thanks for your input. My future upgrade will likely be W4S DAC-2, currently out of reach. That's why I also look at W4S uDAC, which receive pretty good comment.
   
  Does it also mean that W4S DAC-2 does not provide the best synergy for LCD-2? In your opinion.


----------



## longbowbbs

Leafs, I have not heard the DAC-2 with the LCD-2's. Other have enjoyed that combo. From what I have heard with the LCD-2's the DM would pair nicely as well given its warmer signature. Nothing bad either way, just different. YMMV.


----------



## OPR8R

The DAC-2 is a great with the LCD-2.


----------



## DemonFox

I just paired my LCD 2.2's with my new Continental V3 and pico Dac I was lent to by Justin @ headamp.com. That combo is fantastic!! Now I wouldn't pair it with just any can tho because of how light the bass from the pico is. The bass has basically been turned down so you'll need a can like the LCD's or HD650's that have a darker signature to get the most out of the pairing. The V3 is a powerful amp with a very dark signature but it still maintains great clarity and amazingly smooth vocals with a good pretty good amount of bass impact. Not sure if this will be my endgame portable amp (still holding out for Traid Audio L3) but for the time being I'm very pleased and can easily see the V3 giving years or pleasure to anything you plug into it.


Thanks,


D


----------



## thegrobe

It's not been discussed too much here, but I'm finding great enjoyment out of the Audio-GD SA-1.32 DAC/SA-31 Amp combo. I've got them tied together with a DH Labs Revelation silver interconnect. I've had about a month with the amp and a couple weeks with the DAC/amp combo so I am getting a good feel for it. 
   
  Although the both the DAC and amp are from the "musical" or "warm" line from Audio-GD, it is in no way too dark or warm for the LCD-2 r2. Just a wonderful sound. There are some adjustments on the DAC and amp to fine tune the signature and warmth, etc. I find the -130 "attenuation" setting on the DAC to be a large amount of treble energy, almost too bright. -90 and 8x oversample works really well. The middle setting on the amp "warm 1" matches the LCD  well. These are the settings that are working the best for me now, this may change after more time is spent and playing with the settings, etc. 
   
  The "warmth" of the setup is not dull of muddy in any way, It seems to affect harmonics and "space" in the recording, makes things really sound natural and alive. Maybe some of this is the use of PCM1704UK DAC's in there. Maybe some is the "musical" implementation of the analog circuits. I don't know. Regardless, I think it helps the LCD-2 by adding some "air" and at the same time body to the presentation. Acoustic guitars are more "jangly", vocals and reverberations sound realistic, etc. Is it more or less "correct" than something with a more dry presentation? I don't know...But it's enjoyable for me to listen to.


----------



## stang

Well, as it turns out, I couldn't hold onto my money for any longer than 5 minutes and now have a pair of LCD-2 rev2.2 Rosewood on my way.


----------



## zilch0md

Quote: 





stang said:


> Well, as it turns out, I couldn't hold onto my money for any longer than 5 minutes and now have a pair of LCD-2 rev2.2 Rosewood on my way.


 
   
  Yeah boyee!


----------



## Raptor34

Quote: 





stang said:


> Well, as it turns out, I couldn't hold onto my money for any longer than 5 minutes and now have a pair of LCD-2 rev2.2 Rosewood on my way.


 

  I thought I was bad.   
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




   Just got mine yesterday.  Only a few hours on them so far.   Glad I have a lot food and drink in the fridge because I'm not leaving the house all weekend.    They are just sooooo good.    And that bass, jeeze


----------



## kothganesh

Quote: 





stang said:


> Well, as it turns out, I couldn't hold onto my money for any longer than 5 minutes and now have a pair of LCD-2 rev2.2 Rosewood on my way.


 
  Wait until you hear the LCD - 3 !
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## zilch0md

Quote: 





kothganesh said:


> Wait until you hear the LCD - 3 !
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Brutal!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  The good news for Raptor34 is that he's 95% of the way there on half the money.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Mie


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





stang said:


> Well, as it turns out, I couldn't hold onto my money for any longer than 5 minutes and now have a pair of LCD-2 rev2.2 Rosewood on my way.


 
  lmfaoo.


----------



## stang

Quote: 





kothganesh said:


> Wait until you hear the LCD - 3 !
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Actually already have and lucky me I preferred the LCD-2! It was only about 20 minutes I had with the LCD-3 but for $1000 extra, if they don't sound considerably better after that time, then I will be holding onto my money. Well you know...for 5 minutes longer


----------



## Raptor34

Quote: 





zilch0md said:


> Brutal!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Thank you,   I needed to hear that.


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





stang said:


> Actually already have and lucky me I preferred the LCD-2! It was only about 20 minutes I had with the LCD-3 but for $1000 extra, if they don't sound considerably better after that time, then I will be holding onto my money. Well you know...for 5 minutes longer


 
  +1. I never found the LCD3 $1000 (now $800) better than the LCD2's neither. It's when people jump on the hype train and go OMG 1-5% sound difference = night and day difference and it magically fixes the flaws of the headphones design and sound which modding cannot even fix itself. The LCD3 is a fun sounding headphone but there are better alternatives for less. If money is no problem than more then power to you.


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





defqon said:


> +1. I never found the LCD3 $1000 (now $800) better than the LCD2's neither. It's when people jump on the hype train and go OMG 1-5% sound difference = night and day difference and it magically fixes the flaws of the headphones design and sound which modding cannot even fix itself. The LCD3 is a fun sounding headphone but there are better alternatives for less. If money is no problem than more then power to you.


 
  There is no hype train. But the last 10-20% is where the real cost increases lie. Are the LCD-3s better than the LCD-2s, no doubt, are they 2x better nope...but nothing is linear with respect to cost in this range. If you want the "best" in general in audio...it's gonna cost you. Once I heard the LCD-3s, I couldn't go back to listening to my LCD-2s and sold them shortly thereafter.


----------



## stang

Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> There is no hype train. But the last 10-20% is where the real cost increases lie. Are the LCD-3s better than the LCD-2s, no doubt, are they 2x better nope...but nothing is linear with respect to cost in this range. If you want the "best" in general in audio...it's gonna cost you. Once I heard the LCD-3s, I couldn't go back to listening to my LCD-2s and sold them shortly thereafter.


 
   
  I guess I am lucky then (or unlucky?) that I didn't find the LCD-3 much better. To me, all I really heard was increased treble and a couple slight improvements in the soundstage area which I didn't care for because I want something very different form the Dt880. I guess that extra $1000 should go toward an amp or something else


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





stang said:


> I guess I am lucky then (or unlucky?) that I didn't find the LCD-3 much better. To me, all I really heard was increased treble and a couple slight improvements in the soundstage area which I didn't care for because I want something very different form the Dt880. I guess that extra $1000 should go toward an amp or something else


 
  Would also depend on what your upstream rig was too. The LCD-2s play nice with almost anything, the LCD-3s are quite a bit more transparent of upfront gear and will scale higher. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The bass is tighter and more defined, but when the upstream rig is up to par, the imaging, speed and instrumental separation are some of the biggest improvements.


----------



## Lappy27

Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> There is no hype train. But the last 10-20% is where the real cost increases lie. Are the LCD-3s better than the LCD-2s, no doubt, are they 2x better nope...but nothing is linear with respect to cost in this range. If you want the "best" in general in audio...it's gonna cost you. Once I heard the LCD-3s, I couldn't go back to listening to my LCD-2s and sold them shortly thereafter.


 
  Despite the fact that nearly everybody said that LCD-3 is Superior to LCD-2 in any conceivable way, I have the courage to say that after one week of comparaison between the two a couple months ago, I still prefered the LCD-2r2...by a nose.
   
  Subtility, refinement, detail and musicality went to the LCD-3. Bass slam, smoothness, general sonic enjoyment and fun factor went to the LCD-2.
   
  BUT that was for me in my set up that has been change since then.


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





lappy27 said:


> Despite the fact that nearly everybody said that LCD-3 is Superior to LCD-2 in any conceivable way, I have the courage to say that after one week of comparaison between the two a couple months ago, I still prefered the LCD-2r2...by a nose.
> 
> Subtility, refinement, detail and musicality went to the LCD-3. Bass slam, smoothness, general sonic enjoyment and fun factor went to the LCD-2.
> 
> BUT that was for me in my set up that has been change since then.


 
  So the relatively spikey (maybe un-even is a better word) treble and closed in sound of the LCD-2s didn't bother you? What was the rig? On my Lyr/DLIII, the differences weren't as wide and I can see how you felt, but on my WA22, Liquid Fire or GS-X (with my W4S DAC-2), the differences were very noticeable.


----------



## i019791

Quote: 





defqon said:


> +1. I never found the LCD3 $1000 (now $800) better than the LCD2's neither. It's when people jump on the hype train and go OMG 1-5% sound difference = night and day difference and it magically fixes the flaws of the headphones design and sound which modding cannot even fix itself. The LCD3 is a fun sounding headphone but there are better alternatives for less. If money is no problem than more then power to you.


 
  I checked a little, but LCD3 was still 950 $ more expensive


----------



## kothganesh

Quote: 





stang said:


> Actually already have and lucky me I preferred the LCD-2! It was only about 20 minutes I had with the LCD-3 but for $1000 extra, if they don't sound considerably better after that time, then I will be holding onto my money. Well you know...for 5 minutes longer


 
  5 minutes over buddy... and ?


----------



## stang

Quote: 





kothganesh said:


> 5 minutes over buddy... and ?


 
   
  Well unfortunately I am flat broke so I can't buy anything 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Still so much to buy through. Amplifier, headphone cable, XLR cables, new coaxial cable, 'vegan' earpads...
   
  Can't wait to try out the LCD-2 with my M3 (single ended unfortunately) amplifier, though. Hopefully it will satisfy me until I can afford a new amp (must at least have balanced inputs). Then I will be back down to Addicted to Audio to try out some amps again. Definitely going to be giving the Violectric V200 a go, as I forgot about it last time. I am wondering if I should try the Woo Audio WA22 as well, but it would only be a reference to what the LCD-2 would sound like with a tube amp (probably the Little Dot MKVI+) because they do not stock Little Dot products. I'm not sure if this is a good idea though or if it is a total waste of time.


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> There is no hype train. But the last 10-20% is where the real cost increases lie. Are the LCD-3s better than the LCD-2s, no doubt, are they 2x better nope...but nothing is linear with respect to cost in this range. If you want the "best" in general in audio...it's gonna cost you. Once I heard the LCD-3s, I couldn't go back to listening to my LCD-2s and sold them shortly thereafter.


 
   
   
  +1
   
  IMO - No question the LCD-3 is the better headphone.  Just like some may consider the 009s better than the 007s.  This is if you leave cost out.  When you bring cost in the mix things change.  However, the better headphone still remains the better headphone.  
   
  I lived with the LCD-3 and the LCD-2.2 at the same time for weeks.  The LCD-2.2 just stop getting the head time.  For me the LCD-3s was better in each and every way I could think of.  Sold the LCD-2.2s with no questions asked.


----------



## kothganesh

Quote: 





stang said:


> Well unfortunately I am flat broke so I can't buy anything
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  You will find varied emotions on pairing any Audez'e to a tube amp. I currently listen to the LCD 2.2 paired to the Lyr or the Soloist. To my ears, the Lyr is awesome and exciting. The Soloist is more neutral, laid back but a tad more musical. FWIW and good luck.


----------



## zilch0md

Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> Would also depend on what your upstream rig was too. The LCD-2s play nice with almost anything, the LCD-3s are quite a bit more transparent of upfront gear and will scale higher.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  +1
   
  I experienced this at the meet in Dallas, last weekend. Having had the the LCD-2 for about two and a half years, it was my first opportunity to listen to the LCD-3 (there were at least two people who brought them).
   
  But having listened to both pair for quite a while, on various rigs, I decided I'll stick with my LCD-2.  It's happy at the end of just about any chain (relatively speaking).
   
  Mike


----------



## stang

Also, I forgot to mention, I compared the LCD-2 to the LCD-3 using my Buffalo II DAC (balanced with Sabre ES9018 chip) with a Bryston BHA-1 which is essentially beyond the limit of what I can afford for quite some time anyway. So if that didn't impress me compared to the LCD-2, I don't think anything that I can actually afford would.


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





preproman said:


> +1
> 
> IMO - No question the LCD-3 is the better headphone.  Just like some may consider the 009s better than the 007s.  This is if you leave cost out.  When you bring cost in the mix things change.  However, the better headphone still remains the better headphone.
> 
> I lived with the LCD-3 and the LCD-2.2 at the same time for weeks.  The LCD-2.2 just stop getting the head time.  For me the LCD-3s was better in each and every way I could think of.  Sold the LCD-2.2s with no questions asked.


 
  Costs should always be left out. Preference is much more important than anything else. And plenty of people find the 007 preferred to the 009. Price > performance > no correlation.
   
  When it comes to the LCD-2 and LCD-3 It's hard for me to see how/why some prefer the LCD-2 with the hard treble and more
  closed in sound comparatively to the 3's smooth treble and more open sound. But to each their own.


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





paradoxper said:


> And plenty of people find the 007 preferred to the 009. Price > performance > no correlation.


 
   
  I did say "some"


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





preproman said:


> I did say "some"


 
  You also said "However the better headphone still remains the better headphone."


----------



## MattTCG

Quote: 





paradoxper said:


> Costs should always be left out. Preference is much more important than anything else. And plenty of people find the 007 preferred to the 009. Price > performance > no correlation.
> 
> When it comes to the LCD-2 and LCD-3 It's hard for me to see how/why some prefer the LCD-2 with the hard treble and more
> closed in sound comparatively to the 3's smooth treble and more open sound. But to each their own.


 
   
  Quote: 





preproman said:


> I did say "some"


 
   
   
  Oddly, I'm one of those who preferred the 007. For one, I found the 007 more comfortable. Second, I really had a tough time telling them apart sonically. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 And hey, 007 is the coolest name ever.


----------



## DefQon

I personally preferred my Omega 1's to the 007 mk1's (underpowered at the time) and the 009 by a long shot. I also would not call the 009 completely neutral as well as there are aspects of sound my less expensive Lambdas do better.

@paradoxper: from what I've read and the measurements I've looked at the first batch of LCD3's were actually ass backedwards with the upper mids and treble compared to the rev.1's at the time. It was until some failure rates kicking in that Audeze decided to do a revisional/incremental patch update to fix things up and also fixing up the sound. Having finally heard the LCD3's I don't see anything special about them especially against my heavily modded rev.1's which no bs blows the stock rev.2's out of the water when paired right. 2 things that Audeze retained with the LCD3'S that I hoped they fixed but didn't:

1. Crappy soundstage.
2. Wall of bass, congestion.


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





paradoxper said:


> You also said "However the better headphone still remains the better headphone."


 
   
   
  Yes - which ever is better to you...  Or "some" could also say better = technical performance.  To each is own..


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





preproman said:


> Yes - which ever is better to you...  Or "some" could also say better = technical performance.  To each is own..


 
  That clears it up. I just misinterpreted your post.


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





defqon said:


> 2 things that Audeze retained with the LCD3'S that I hoped they fixed but didn't:
> 
> 1. Crappy soundstage.
> 2. Wall of bass, congestion.


 
   
  They didn't fix?
   
  They fixed it compared to the LCD-2s.  But your correct.  They still lack in these areas compared to "some" others..


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





paradoxper said:


> That clears it up. I just misinterpreted your post.


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





preproman said:


> They didn't fix?
> 
> They fixed it compared to the LCD-2s.  But your correct.  They still lack in these areas compared to "some" others..


 
  Well yeah that's the thing they are still lacking compared to other good headphones. I wouldn't exactly say it is fixed compared to the LCD2's I'd say it is masked over giving the impression of a substantial improvement but for myself, I'd probably nail the problem down to just the way the Audeze house sound signature is and being related to this slight problem. If only the LCD's had a bigger bigger soundstage that extends to the back of your head without putting glare and sibilance into the treble and mid range. Mods can you get you near this but not everyone is in a comfortable position of opening/modding $1000-2000 headphones.


----------



## Taliesin

Has anyone tried the headphone out section on any of these products
Audiolab Mdac
Musical fidelity M1HPAP 
Peachtree audio nova 125
I'm thinking about getting one of these for my speaker system but also want to be able to use headphones.
The headphones I'm looking at are either the lcd2 or HD700.


----------



## Taliesin

Has anyone tried the headphone out section on any of these products
Audiolab Mdac
Musical fidelity M1HPAP 
Peachtree audio nova 125
I'm thinking about getting one of these for my speaker system but also want to be able to use headphones.
The headphones I'm looking at are either the lcd2 or HD700.


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





defqon said:


> Well yeah that's the thing they are still lacking compared to other good headphones. I wouldn't exactly say it is fixed compared to the LCD2's I'd say it is masked over giving the impression of a substantial improvement but for myself, I'd probably nail the problem down to just the way the Audeze house sound signature is and being related to this slight problem. If only the LCD's had a bigger bigger soundstage that extends to the back of your head without putting glare and sibilance into the treble and mid range. Mods can you get you near this but not everyone is in a comfortable position of opening/modding $1000-2000 headphones.


 
   
  I can never understand the saying "giving the impression of improvements" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
   
  To my ears, the improvements are there and real when compared to the LCD-2.2.  I base this on the amount of time I put into comparing the two when I owned both for weeks. I must say the improvements are more than just an "illusion" for lack of a better word.  I wanted to make sure of this because of the 1K price difference and all.  However, in the grand scheme of things and as you pointed out - they still fall short in a few important areas "to some people" and not so much to others.


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





preproman said:


> I can never understand the saying "giving the impression of improvements"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  1. Some people want to believe big differences while the difference is there, it is only a small subtle or by a little marginal amount. Placebo, psychoacoustics and bias can all be judged for this matter. Which is why we have controlled ABX and blind testing to put things to the test.
   
  2. Precisely.


----------



## preproman

Huh - the old double blind listening test.  It will get you everytime.


----------



## mentt

Quote: 





taliesin said:


> Has anyone tried the headphone out section on any of these products
> Audiolab Mdac
> Musical fidelity M1HPAP
> Peachtree audio nova 125
> ...


 
  Mdac can't run LCD2 to it's potential.


----------



## Audiomania2

Wa2se would be more then fine.


----------



## Audiomania2

Wa2se would be more then fine.


----------



## DemonFox

So I've purchased both the Continental V3 and O2 to use with my LCD's and I'm quite pleased with both. Now of course because I've used the o2 along side a heavy hitter like the V3 of course it's not going to sound as large or as precise but all in all it's a good showing. It's been tested many times before but you be never really know until you test it for yourself. For example, my HD650's sound stupid good with the V3 but god awful with the o2. Which is crazy because I always thought that the HD650's were less picky than my LCD's but in this case it was the opposite. Now I will admit that while using the V3 by itself was good but it wasn't great with the LCD's, made them a little to dark. But throw in a decent DAC and magic! More kick more sparkle and it's go time. The O2 on the other hand saw some but little improvement when I paired it with my little Sabre Dac. Opened it up a little but the sound signature was still pretty much the same. Which isn't a bad thing but it is a bit limited but for what it is its a great budget amp for the LCD's. 

Next up is a Fiio E10. I like budget amps  Fun cheap and easy to move when you're done with them. I have a Burson that's the best amp ice ever heard that's been up for sale for Agee weeks now. If I put my O2 up for sale it'll be gone in a matter of hours! 


Thanks,


D


----------



## Mcberto

I have a $300-ish budget for a DAC/AMP as of now. Looking to upgrade in the future. What would be good to start out from?


----------



## MattTCG

So you scored the lcd2 that was up for sale? Nice!! 
   
  You don't have a lot to work with on that budget. The Asgard 2 has good punch and dynamics and pairs well. But then that would only leave you $50 for the dac. I'd stretch a few dollars and grab the modi to go with the A2. 
   
  Also consider some of the Audio GD products with integrated dacs for a good savings.


----------



## Monir

Quote: 





mcberto said:


> I have a $300-ish budget for a DAC/AMP as of now. Looking to upgrade in the future. What would be good to start out from?


 
  For $300 you can get a used D100 II, really good DAC/Amp, and it works quite well with LCD-2.


----------



## stang

Getting very excited for the arrival of my LCD-2 in 2 days 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Just have to decide between the Little Dot MKVI+ and Yulong A18 (have ruled everything else out for either cost, aesthetic or performance reasons). AFAIK, I can't demo either and I pretty much have a gauge for the sound of the A18 based on reviews etc, but not the MKVI+ as there are very little reviews and comparisons of it. They both look great in silver too which is a huge plus


----------



## Monir

Quote: 





stang said:


> Getting very excited for the arrival of my LCD-2 in 2 days
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I really liked the A18 with LCD-2, there's a sort of fluidity in the sound which compliments the natural bold sound of the Audezes. However, I feel it benefits some dynamic cans even more, for example my K701 and HE-400 were almost blissful through the A18, I guess the characteristics of the A18 go better with such headphones; even heard that the HD800 should be a great fit.
   
  Amps and I rarely get along for more than 2 months 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 so I'm going to try out other options with the LCD-2. And since I definetly can't try out anything apart from Burson and other more popular European and American products in Sweden (strangely they have Leben amplifiers at one place here though) I will have to order from China in order to 'audition' amps.
   
  I'm also considering MK VI+ but I'm worried it will be too neutral, even with tube rolling. But aside that, I had really pleasent results with my previous Little Dot amp.


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





monir said:


> I'm also considering MK VI+ but I'm worried it will be too neutral, even with tube rolling.


 
  No chance of that happening. It is a chameleon of an amp.


----------



## stang

Quote: 





monir said:


> I really liked the A18 with LCD-2, there's a sort of fluidity in the sound which compliments the natural bold sound of the Audezes. However, I feel it benefits some dynamic cans even more, for example my K701 and HE-400 were almost blissful through the A18, I guess the characteristics of the A18 go better with such headphones; even heard that the HD800 should be a great fit.
> 
> Amps and I rarely get along for more than 2 months
> 
> ...


 
   
  If only your A18 you have listed for sale was silver and I would jump on it and then you could get the MKVI+ 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The A18 is definitely still on my list, but so is the MKVI+ which makes things difficult. 
  Quote: 





defqon said:


> No chance of that happening. It is a chameleon of an amp.


 
   
  By this I assume you mean the tube's characteristics really shine through, which makes it a great choice for those who will spend some time (and money) tube rolling to get the exact sound they wish. I think I should look up various tubes that can be used with the MKVI+ and see if any have the sound characteristics I am looking for. Pretty sure the MKVI+ has a 4 week waiting time though 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It would also be a pain if something were to go wrong with it as shipping it back would take quite some time and cost quite a bit of money.


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





stang said:


> If only your A18 you have listed for sale was silver and I would jump on it and then you could get the MKVI+
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  If anything goes wrong I can fix it for you. As I have one and it's been modded. Hasn't been used in a while though its in the garage.


----------



## stang

Quote: 





defqon said:


> If anything goes wrong I can fix it for you. As I have one and it's been modded. Hasn't been used in a while though its in the garage.


 
   
  That's very generous of you, thanks. Why haven't you used it in a while? Don't enjoy it anymore, not as good pairing with your primary headphones compared to another of your amps? I am really considering it over the A18 now. All these cable upgrades are so tempting right now though but if I buy them all now (new LCD-2 cable, XLR and coax) I won't be able to afford an amp for at least a couple of months


----------



## Monir

Quote: 





stang said:


> That's very generous of you, thanks. Why haven't you used it in a while? Don't enjoy it anymore, not as good pairing with your primary headphones compared to another of your amps? I am really considering it over the A18 now. All these cable upgrades are so tempting right now though but if I buy them all now (new LCD-2 cable, XLR and coax) I won't be able to afford an amp for at least a couple of months


 

 IMO cables don't make that much difference anyway. Unless you're actually using, say, a true balanced system and running it through RCA only. You'd want XLR recabling in order to use the full potentials of the MK VI+ for instance, David wrote so himself in an email when I asked him a few questions about the amp.
   
  The A18 however sounds great even with unbalanced. I'm running it balanced right now though since I sold my Signal RCA cables.


----------



## stang

Quote: 





monir said:


> IMO cables don't make that much difference anyway. Unless you're actually using, say, a true balanced system and running it through RCA only. You'd want XLR recabling in order to use the full potentials of the MK VI+ for instance, David wrote so himself in an email when I asked him a few questions about the amp.
> 
> The A18 however sounds great even with unbalanced. I'm running it balanced right now though since I sold my Signal RCA cables.


 
   
  Yeah, but even then I need to get a balanced headphone cable (would rather not just re-terminate stock cable) and XLR cables which, as the cheapest, will be about $150 after postage (I honestly think going DIY honestly won't be much cheaper, that and I suck at soldering). Getting the cables that I really like would be around $350, however, I know in the end I will get them, so I don't know whether to go cheap now, try to re-sell and then upgrade, or just go all out now. If I go all out now, it will be months before I can get the Little dot MKVI+ if I decide to go with that (have to save for it, then there is the 3-4 week build time). I really wish there wasn't such a long build time for the MKVI+ but I understand why.


----------



## stang

LCD-2s arrived! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 They look outstanding. Don't sound quite as good as I remember them, but I am currently using them single ended with my M3 amplifier as opposed to a fully balanced setup with a ~$1000 amp. These definitely need some more power. Unfortunately I have my final exam in a few hours so I can't really spend much time with them until tonight unfortunately. I think I am just going to try and save for an amp now. $750 and several weeks remaining...


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





stang said:


> That's very generous of you, thanks. Why haven't you used it in a while? Don't enjoy it anymore, not as good pairing with your primary headphones compared to another of your amps? I am really considering it over the A18 now. All these cable upgrades are so tempting right now though but if I buy them all now (new LCD-2 cable, XLR and coax) I won't be able to afford an amp for at least a couple of months


 
  As much as I'd like to listen to them I don't have space for them in the house nor my audio rack so they are kept in there original box on my amp shelf. That said, I have far too many amp rebuilds to go through now which is what is eating my time nowadays.


----------



## jcx

M3 does lose a lot of V with the Mosfet buffer but should still put ~0.4 Wrms into 50 Ohms with AMB's 27 V supply setting - thats 116 dB SPL clipping level with the LCD-2 - not particularly short on power


----------



## FredrikT92

Alright, ill ask one last time before I make my decision!
  Which amps works good for house music? I guess I want little warmish sound, with great bass and pretty decent width in the soundstage. Is there any other then V200 & Mjolnir you guys would recommend?


----------



## OPR8R

fredrikt92 said:


> Alright, ill ask one last time before I make my decision!
> Which amps works good for house music? I guess I want little warmish sound, with great bass and pretty decent width in the soundstage. Is there any other then V200 & Mjolnir you guys would recommend?



 
 I listen to a lot of House (EDM) and love my Decware Taboo for it. Are you trying to stay around $1k?


----------



## nafees

I'm currently using Xonar Essence One.. Anyone has any idea whether it will match with LCD 2.2??


----------



## formula1

Quote: 





nafees said:


> I'm currently using Xonar Essence One.. Anyone has any idea whether it will match with LCD 2.2??


 
   
  Not a good match. Specially on the bass area, it was not controlled (sloppy)


----------



## stang

Good news. I have managed to scavenge enough money for the Little Dot MKVI+. Probably one of the worst times to buy overseas due to the fact the aussie dollar has turned to...well, just take a look at the currency exchange graph. The last time I checked it was at like $1.05usd and the next time it was $0.92 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 That also had a huge impact on the cost of my LCD-2. Anyway, shall be placing my order for a silver MKVI+ within the next 24 hours I hope. In the meantime, hopefully I can manage to save enough money to buy some nice wire and connectors for some XLR interconnects and a nice headphone cable. I may just begin with a $15 pair of XLR and then splash out on some nice ones. Definitely want a nice cable for my LCD-2's however (and yes, I have experimented with headphone cables before and to me, they can certainly make a big difference to the sound). Amplifier is first priority though; can't wait to have my ideal setup finalised.


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





fredrikt92 said:


> Alright, ill ask one last time before I make my decision!
> Which amps works good for house music? I guess I want little warmish sound, with great bass and pretty decent width in the soundstage. Is there any other then V200 & Mjolnir you guys would recommend?


 
  Wanting anything more warmer than the current LCD2's sound is something I will personally not want, unless you like a bloated mid range and congested/muffled sound from the treble with a wall of bass thumping in your cranium. That said, you can only get the best out of the LCD2's with clean power, bright or neutral to balance out the laid/darkness of the LCD2's this way you can bring out that shelved treble out bit more.
   
  My recommendation goes to the Mjonir or b22.
   
  Quote: 





stang said:


> Good news. I have managed to scavenge enough money for the Little Dot MKVI+. Probably one of the worst times to buy overseas due to the fact the aussie dollar has turned to...well, just take a look at the currency exchange graph. The last time I checked it was at like $1.05usd and the next time it was $0.92
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Yeah the current Australian currency sucks, our $1 can buy .92-94c of USA currency. I blame the Gillard clowns. 
   
  Anyway a wise move for you would be, upgrade/play around with cables last, get yourself some cheap not to expensive XLR balanced cables/IC if you haven't got one, then drop all the money on tubes because that will give you the most benefit out of the MK VI+. Once you've found the perfect tube combination, then drop in some dime for cables of your choice.


----------



## commtrd

Fully agree with Def. Mjolnir will slap those LCD2.2s into shape. Those cans need all the help they can get with brightness and detail add which the Mjo will definitely do.


----------



## Dubstep Girl

heard the LCD-2 out of the burson conductor and really liked them. was like my WA6-SE with top tubes, but with SS clarity and tightness. was really nice. they also sounded faster as well.


----------



## stang

Quote: 





defqon said:


> Anyway a wise move for you would be, upgrade/play around with cables last, get yourself some cheap not to expensive XLR balanced cables/IC if you haven't got one, then drop all the money on tubes because that will give you the most benefit out of the MK VI+. Once you've found the perfect tube combination, then drop in some dime for cables of your choice.


 
   
  Yeah I am thinking cheap $15 XLR interconnects but not sure about the headphone cable. Because within about 3 weeks of getting those cables, I will have enough to get my ideal cables (whatever that may be, but thinking around $150 to DIY XLR and about triple that for headphone cable). Perhaps a <$100 headphone cable for now. 
   
  Thing is with the tubes, that many were <$80 not too long ago and then all of a sudden shot to hundreds of dollars. I just feel like an idiot having to spend that much when they were so much cheaper not long ago. I've also had a look at the little dot tube rolling thread and I still can't figure out what tubes can be used with the MKVI+. I would love a description of each tube that is suitable (ie: soundstage, its low, mid and highs characteristics etc). There probably is around here somewhere. I would be comfortable spending up to $400 on tubes all up, but some seem to be that much just for a matched pair, never mind all of the other tubes to be upgraded.


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





stang said:


> Yeah I am thinking cheap $15 XLR interconnects but not sure about the headphone cable. Because within about 3 weeks of getting those cables, I will have enough to get my ideal cables (whatever that may be, but thinking around $150 to DIY XLR and about triple that for headphone cable). Perhaps a <$100 headphone cable for now.
> 
> Thing is with the tubes, that many were <$80 not too long ago and then all of a sudden shot to hundreds of dollars. I just feel like an idiot having to spend that much when they were so much cheaper not long ago. I've also had a look at the little dot tube rolling thread and I still can't figure out what tubes can be used with the MKVI+. I would love a description of each tube that is suitable (ie: soundstage, its low, mid and highs characteristics etc). There probably is around here somewhere. I would be comfortable spending up to $400 on tubes all up, but some seem to be that much just for a matched pair, never mind all of the other tubes to be upgraded.


 
  Just to give you a baseline of how much I've spent on tubes for my VI+ alone is around $1.5-2k. Not that I have a lot, it's just quad prices are damn expensive for nearly all variants out there.


----------



## stang

Quote: 





defqon said:


> Just to give you a baseline of how much I've spent on tubes for my VI+ alone is around $1.5-2k. Not that I have a lot, it's just quad prices are damn expensive for nearly all variants out there.


 
   
  Would you still say it was a better decision compared to perhaps starting with a $2k amp and spending a few hundred on tubes?


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





stang said:


> Would you still say it was a better decision compared to perhaps starting with a $2k amp and spending a few hundred on tubes?


 
  It is better than all the Woo stuff I tried up till the WA5LE.


----------



## philo50

Quote: 





dubstep girl said:


> heard the LCD-2 out of the burson conductor and really liked them. was like my WA6-SE with top tubes, but with SS clarity and tightness. was really nice. they also sounded faster as well.


 

 +1


----------



## fabio-fi

I'm with Dubstep. The Soloist on its own its a good match already.


----------



## DefQon

Fab's, how's the HE-5LE on the Soloist?


----------



## fabio-fi

Quote: 





defqon said:


> Fab's, how's the HE-5LE on the Soloist?


 
   
  I found it to be a nice pairing, it handles them well on the high gain. 
   
  Bass response is tight and fast, good mids, and it has been improving after some extensive burn-in (200+ hours) this is my headphone for classical and some symphonic power metal.


----------



## stang

Paypal: You just made a payment of $865usd. 
   
  Can't wait for my MKVI+


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





stang said:


> Paypal: You just made a payment of $865usd.
> 
> Can't wait for my MKVI+


 
  Noice. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Be sure to pop off the bottom panel and take a picture for some circuitry porn. I want to see if David has made any updates to the MK VI+ line since release.


----------



## stang

Quote: 





defqon said:


> Noice.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Will do 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


 I will also attempt to take a decent pic of the tubes glowing, but the last time I tried that it turned out absolutely dreadful.


----------



## stang

MKVI+ is on its way to me now 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Might have to get a cheap 4 pin XLR cable for the LCD-2 while I wait to gather more funds for the one I have been planning for a little while now.


----------



## Zashoomin

Quote: 





stang said:


> MKVI+ is on its way to me now
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Build a cable yourself. It is quite fun 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.  Plus with the left over materials you can build even more cables...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## stang

Quote: 





zashoomin said:


> Build a cable yourself. It is quite fun
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  I was going to, but I wanted some nice connectors and those are getting custom made . I figured it would be a lot quicker for that same person (in the U.S) to order in the wire and sleeving etc (all from the U.S) as well at the same time and assemble it there.


----------



## stang

It's here! My MKVI+ has arrived 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Was that quick or what? Both channels read the same. The fans are annoying though. It's not the type of noise I get from computer fans normally, but when a plastic panel on the case is loose and vibrates due to the fans. Will probably get some foam feet or something and replace the fans/use rubber washers or something if that's not too difficult. I don't want to open the amplifier up just yet as I am warming it up right now and will have a listen for a while. Should be about 2-3 weeks before I get my balanced headphone cable. That's gonna suck waiting that long, but it will be worth it (don't know if it is worth picking up a ~$70 cable now to get me through the 3 weeks or if I should just wait it out.


----------



## DefQon

Congratz, that makes you the 2nd Melbournian here with the VI+ other than myself. Change the fan's for a good Noctua or Antec silent fan, the stock fan's are pretty bad. Be sure to take snips of the insides when you do open the bottom panel off.


----------



## stang

Quote: 





defqon said:


> Congratz, that makes you the 2nd Melbournian here with the VI+ other than myself. Change the fan's for a good Noctua or Antec silent fan, the stock fan's are pretty bad. Be sure to take snips of the insides when you do open the bottom panel off.


 
   
  Yeah Noctua are great fans, I just don't use them in my computer due to the fact I wanted an orange/black colour scheme (also with a hint of purple 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). Recently built another computer (will be blue and black scheme) to use with my racing simulator I built last year. What size fans are in the MKVI+? I only looked at the bottom of the amp for a second but it looked like 80mm. Are they 25 or 20 deep? I need to go to pccasegear again sometime soon for some stuff so perhaps they will have something. And yes, I will definitely take some photos soon 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Also, initial impressions: The bass is what I expected from the LCD-2 now. It actually hits you, instead of just hovering around you. Mids are as good as ever and I can't really tell any difference there (not A-B'ing right now though). The highs seem to have more presence (strange going from SS to tubes, but I love the change) and the soundstage is MUCH better. It is deeper, higher and wider with noticeably improved instrument separation. Can't wait to hear it burned in and through the balanced output


----------



## stang

I tried haha. Not very good but will try again some other time. Had the headphones there for a photo with the flash on and it doesn't look very good without the flash but oh well:


----------



## DefQon




----------



## preproman

Quote: 





stang said:


> I tried haha. Not very good but will try again some other time. Had the headphones there for a photo with the flash on and it doesn't look very good without the flash but oh well:


 
   
  Nice looking buffalo you got therre..


----------



## stang

Quote: 





preproman said:


> Nice looking buffalo you got therre..


 
   
  It sure is, got if off Fallen Angel (you might be able to make out that name on the faceplate) a little while back and can't wait to try it balanced with the MKVI+ once I get a balanced headphone cable (should be within 3 weeks from now).


----------



## tropicana

I recently sold my WA6SE which I had for about 11 mths.
  The sound with my LCD2.2 + Q cable was decent.
  I am sure it could be a lot better if I had upgraded the stock tubes but I just didn’t get down to it.
   
  For the interim, I am using the LCD2 with my secondary amp O2 + ODAC.
  I am actually very impressed with it to begin with.
   
   
  In the search for a SS amp, I started with V200 and Soloist which are highly recommended in this thread.
   
  I purchased a used V200.
  The midrange sounded full and had very good separation, better than the WA6SE with stock tube.
  Bass was deep and controlled, but I did feel like it was over powering the mids a little.
  What I found unacceptable was the highs.  There was no sense of air at all and it sounded dull.
  I am tempted to say that details were lost but this perception could be due to the lack of high freq.
  After spending a few long nights with it, I decided it was not for me and sold it within a week of owning it.
  In my opinion, it is a poor match with the LCD2.
   
  Moving on I had the opportunity to audition the Soloist at home for about an hour.
  The Soloist fared better than the V200 in the highs.
  Overall it sounded clean and certainly more balanced compared to the V200.
  I am not too sure if the stepped volume control was an advantage.
  On some tracks, I found the sweet spot to be between steps.
  Overall, I was not impressed by the performance and am certain that I wouldn’t fork out 1KUS$ for it.
   
  Comparing these two amps with the O2 + ODAC, I prefer the O2.
  I am not saying that O2 is better than V200 or Soloist.
  But IMO, it is a better match with LCD2.
   
  I found that the V200 and Soloists were too focused on the low freqs LCD2.
  It sounds as if the driver of the LCD2 were too busy producing bass, hence forgoing the highs.
  The O2 sounds more realistic, accurate, faster, more energetic and have better sense of airiness.
  As if the drivers could breathe better, as opposed to being overwhelmed by the need to produce lots of bass.
  Bass is taut but not as a deep.  In terms of quantity, it is about right and does not interfere with the rest of the freq.
   
  Having said all that, if I still had my HD800, I would imagine pairing it with the O2 to be disastrous.
  Probably sounds shrill and thin.  V200 would likely be a better match with the HD800.
   
  In closing, I was a little disappointed with the results of V200 and Soloist.
  The O2 really did surprised me.
   
  The search continues…


----------



## jsgraha

tropicana said:


> I recently sold my WA6SE which I had for about 11 mths.
> The sound with my LCD2.2 + Q cable was decent.
> I am sure it could be a lot better if I had upgraded the stock tubes but I just didn’t get down to it.
> 
> ...




I'm curious regarding the source that being used for all these amp (6SE, v200 and soloist)...
IMO, if these amp + LCD2 not agreeable with you, It's time to find other headphone (or source)


----------



## HeyWaj10

I would give anything to get to try the Little Dot MKVI+ with my LCD2's. I really do enjoy my Soloist SL, but the prospect of wider/deeper soundstage and more oomph really is appealing. Plus the looks of that amp are just awesome.


----------



## Dubstep Girl

Quote: 





jsgraha said:


> IMO, if these amp + LCD2 not agreeable with you, It's time to find other headphone.


 
   
  +1
   
   
  LCD-2 sound great on Soloist and WA6-SE (with mighty 596 tube)


----------



## mojolo

jsgraha said:


> I'm curious regarding the source that being used for all these amp (6SE, v200 and soloist)...
> IMO, if these amp + LCD2 not agreeable with you, It's time to find other headphone (or source)




Agree that choice of DAC can make a difference here. I originally was using the Soloist with a CIAudio VDA-2 DAC with dual pcm1794 chips (fed through audio-gd DI v3 USB converter) - the sound was a bit boring and there was a mid bass hump. Sound wasn't that bad but I was about to give up on the combo and get a decware taboo. My Yulong DA8 with sabre chip then arrived and now I have no more desire to upgrade. While the VDA-2 is a nice, smooth, analog sounding DAC, the DA8 is livelier, even more detailed in the highs (without harshness whatsoever) and has less mid bass emphasis. The Soloist is a pretty transparent amp which allows one to hear these differences. Good match IMHO with the LCD-2.3s. (Note that this is through the DA8s own amanero combo384 USB implementation.)


----------



## Tony1110

jsgraha said:


> I'm curious regarding the source that being used for all these amp (6SE, v200 and soloist)...
> IMO, if these amp + LCD2 not agreeable with you, It's time to find other headphone (or source)




+2. The V200 is awesome with the LCD 2. I'll hook mine up to my old CD player and see how it performs minus the expensive DAC.


----------



## tropicana

jsgraha said:


> I'm curious regarding the source that being used for all these amp (6SE, v200 and soloist)...
> IMO, if these amp + LCD2 not agreeable with you, It's time to find other headphone (or source)



 
 You are right, I should sell the LCD2 immediately.
  Oh wait, what am I going to do with my O2 + ODAC?
  Among all the headphones in the world, the only headphone that can be used with the O2 is the LCD2.
  Guess I'll be keeping it after all...
   
 The DAC i used is the ODAC, which is probably too good to be true?
   
 Also, a turntable setup:
  Roksan Radius 5 w/ Nima arm (US$2000) 
  Shure M97xE (US$70) with Jico SAS (US$167) 
  Graham Slee Era Gold V with PSU1 (US$1000) 
  All sitting on a Solid Steel 6.3 rack (US$1000) 
  
  No, ODAC sounds better to my ears.
   
 Take it easy man... its just my opinion.


----------



## mojolo

tropicana said:


> You are right, I should sell the LCD2 immediately.
> Oh wait, what am I going to do with my O2 + ODAC?
> Among all the headphones in the world, the only headphone that can be used with the O2 is the LCD2.
> Guess I'll be keeping it after all...
> ...




Its your SS rack that's the culprit man, I know it.

In all seriousness, I think he just means that the V200 and Soloist are said to be good pairings with the LCD2s by many so perhaps another headphone may suit your tastes better. While most of us in this thread are very fond of our LCD2s, we can understand that the sound wouldn't be for everyone.


----------



## Jamesdeandoa

monir said:


> It might not be as popular as the famous Lyr/160/V200 combination. But after some intense listening I'd like to recommend the Yulong Sabre A18. I've used Burson 160, Violectric V200, but not the Schiit Lyr (Only the V200 of those were paired with the LCD-2), and I definately think that the A18 sticks out by quite a great margin.
> 
> The yulong a18 is awesome paired with the lcd2 and I find the soundstage superb.
> 
> Going directly from the V200 to the A18 was a great decision IMO. They both share the same analogue warm signature with a wonderfully detailed bass, but to my ears it felt that the A18 was a little more lush and was a bit more spacious than the V200. Some have said that there's a noise floor with very sensitive in-ears, but with the LCD-2 the A18 is dead silent even at max volume. I quite like the thick and lush sound that the A18 provides, and I definately can sense a slight bump in soundstage as well. To me, it's not the intimate character of the V200, but a more natural and smooth variant. There's still a lot of detail, and the sound just seems more open while still retaining its lushness and body.


----------



## FredrikT92

It came a Burson The Conductor on the used market which I bought as I thought the price was nearly irresistible
  Cant wait to see how it is with LCD2's
   I was actually rooting towards schiit mjolnir, but I think I might wait till they release their statement amp!


----------



## Tony1110

The Conductor should be good. I looked around for one secondhand prior to getting the Violectric stack but couldn't find any at a reasonable price. Another amp which is supposed to be great with the LCD-2 is the NJC Monitor II - although I think it's only available to British buyers.


----------



## Dubstep Girl

ive heard lcd-2 on conductor, its very good.


----------



## DemonFox

fredrikt92 said:


> It came a Burson The Conductor on the used market which I bought as I thought the price was nearly irresistible
> Cant wait to see how it is with LCD2's
> I was actually rooting towards schiit mjolnir, but I think I might wait till they release their statement amp!




You'll love it. Loads of power and super fast. Great combination.

I've got the Pan Am coming my way and three sets of tubes to roll so I'm looking forward to this weekend with my 2's. 


Thanks,


:evil:


----------



## Tony1110

Do they sell a Conductor without the pre amp now?


----------



## DefQon

The Conductor is what it was before. But there is a new Soloist SE I think.


----------



## Tony1110

Soloist SL. There's a Conductor with lots of numbers but I'm not sure what it is exactly.


----------



## K_19

Quote: 





tony1110 said:


> Soloist SL. There's a Conductor with lots of numbers but I'm not sure what it is exactly.


 
   
  Conductor SL 9018 and Conductor SL 1793 I believe. Named after the ESS and PCM chips used on those respective units.
   
  These however have the SL version of the amps which don't have the stepped attenuator and have the power output slashed in half.


----------



## fabio-fi

Quote: 





k_19 said:


> Conductor SL 9018 and Conductor SL 1793 I believe. Named after the ESS and PCM chips used on those respective units.
> 
> These however have the SL version of the amps which don't have the stepped attenuator and have the power output slashed in half.


 
   
  They are probably very similar sounding to the full sized conductor. Burson launched a new program where users are able to try both models at home.


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





fabio-fi said:


> They are probably very similar sounding to the full sized conductor. Burson launched a new program where users are able to try both models at home.


 
  Pretty cool, might give them a call tomorrow see if they can give a factory demo of the whole manufacturing process.


----------



## Randomlogic

I'm finding that the LCD 2 rev 2 match very well with the Meier audio classic headphone amp


----------



## commtrd

Both Audeze phones sound awesome with the Mjolnir/Gungnir IMHO. For the capital outlay to acquire that stack really hard to beat them with the 2r2s and the 3s. However that is not to say that the HeadAmp GS-X MkII would not be just phenomenal with either as well. In my experience the Schiit stack was (is) a really synergistic set to go with the 2r2s or LCD3 phones. Great value for the money.


----------



## Tony1110

I'm interested in running mine balanced so the Schiit stack appeals to me. Kinda wish I'd gone for the V181 or Mjolnir over the V200.


----------



## levinhatz

I've heard the LCD-2 with Mjolnir twice (both times hooked up to a Gungnir DAC and with the stock balanced cable) and the first time I heard it it sounded amazing, second time I remember it sounding a bit cold and analytical. I was more impressed with how the LCD-2 sounded thru a Woo WA6-SE with RCA 6DR7 tubes.


----------



## Dubstep Girl

Quote: 





levinhatz said:


> I've heard the LCD-2 with Mjolnir twice (both times hooked up to a Gungnir DAC and with the stock balanced cable) and the first time I heard it it sounded amazing, second time I remember it sounding a bit cold and analytical. I was more impressed with how the LCD-2 sounded thru a Woo WA6-SE with RCA 6DR7 tubes.


 
   
  it gets even better when u add a *MIGHTY 596*!!!!


----------



## levinhatz

Quote: 





dubstep girl said:


> it gets even better when u add a *MIGHTY 596*!!!!


 
   
  What's that, a tube?


----------



## Dubstep Girl

Quote: 





levinhatz said:


> What's that, a tube?


 
   
  yes


----------



## Tony1110

I don't know the first thing about tubes. I've been very tempted to pull the trigger on a Woo amp loads of times but the price of tubes and the confusion surrounding them (all those numbers) has always put me off. The WA22 looks lovely but the premium parts upgrade is way too expensive for me. Having said that, it'd probably be easier than changing amps every few weeks like I seem to be doing at the moment.


----------



## guystp

The Consonance M10S tube amp sounds very good with the LCD-2's. The amp sells for around $1100. Canadian. It is switchable from triode to ultra linear mode at the flip of a switch. ( the amp needs to be turned off for about 5 mins, prior to switching ) and runs at 12.5 watts in ultra linear, and 8 watts in triode mode. It's an El34 based amp but I'm told you can use KT88's by rebiasing the amp. This is a very smooth sounding amp that's very musical. I actually prefer it to the Yulong A-18 which is also a great match to the LCD2's. I think a lot of the younger crowd may prefer the A18 as its a little more analytical and detailed than the M10S, but the latter is more musical and analog sounding in my opinion.


----------



## kothganesh

commtrd said:


> Both Audeze phones sound awesome with the Mjolnir/Gungnir IMHO. For the capital outlay to acquire that stack really hard to beat them with the 2r2s and the 3s. However that is not to say that the HeadAmp GS-X MkII would not be just phenomenal with either as well. In my experience the Schiit stack was (is) a really synergistic set to go with the 2r2s or LCD3 phones. Great value for the money.



+1. And, IMHO, the HE 500 as well.


----------



## linglingjr

I understand this is the LCD 2 amp thread but do you guys have recommendations for the best DAC for $200 or lower?  I'm 99% sure I'll be getting the Lake People G103 as my amp and I would be using that amp and what ever dac I can get for the money with HD600s I own right now if that means anything. Thanks.


----------



## Zashoomin

The Schiit Modi is a good option, so is the O2.  Or if you are into DIY the Gamma 1 or Gamma 2 are also really good dacs.


----------



## Taliesin

Anyone managed to compair one or more of these with a lcd2:
Centrance dacmini
Woo audio wa7
Burson soloist
Schiit mjolnir
Wa6se


----------



## zilch0md

Hi Taliesin,
   
  Quote: 





taliesin said:


> Anyone managed to compair one or more of these with a lcd2:
> *Centrance dacmini*
> Woo audio wa7
> *Burson soloist*
> ...


 
   
  See my earlier post to this thread (regarding DACmini CX vs. Burson Soloist, for LCD-2).
   
  And this post, too.
   
  Mike


----------



## Dubstep Girl

Quote: 





taliesin said:


> Anyone managed to compair one or more of these with a lcd2:
> Centrance dacmini
> Woo audio wa7
> Burson soloist
> ...


 
   
   
  yeah. i did WA6-SE vs. Soloist.
   
  both where great with LCD-2 and i can't really say one is better than the other. the WA6-SE is a little warmer cause of that tube sound, the Soloist is more defined, a little faster still, and tighter cause its an SS amp.


----------



## jsgraha

dubstep girl said:


> yeah. i did WA6-SE vs. Soloist.
> 
> both where great with LCD-2 and i can't really say one is better than the other. the WA6-SE is a little warmer cause of that tube sound, the Soloist is more defined, a little faster still, and tighter cause its an SS amp.




+1
That's correct, but depending on the tube, 6se can have more extension on its treble.
The mids of 6se always warmer than soloist.
Sound stage width about the same (using sophia, while 596 slightly smaller) and depth is better on soloist.

Soloist a little faster if 6se using sophia, but with 596, it's about the same.
Regardless the tube, imaging and resolution on soloist is slightly better than 6se, imo.
But doesn't mean that 6se imaging and resolution is poor though, it's quite good.
It's better than my old v100, v200 (belong to a friend) and wa7 (based on my poor audio memory from 10-15 min audition =) )

Mjolnir is the fastest I guess (but never heard dacmini).
Imo, if lcd2 is the only phone, mjolnir is my pick (provided don't mind going balance).
But if other phone involve, 6se or soloist is better (from rs1i, hd800 or th900), imo of course.


----------



## Dubstep Girl

Quote: 





jsgraha said:


> +1
> That's correct, but depending on the tube, 6se can have more extension on its treble.
> The mids of 6se always warmer than soloist.
> Sound stage width about the same (using sophia, while 596 slightly smaller) and depth is better on soloist.
> ...


 
   
  596, the 6SE sounds very SS like, more than the big rectifier tube would suggest. 
   
  besides the audeze, i really like how grados and fostex/denon pair with WA6-SE (th-900, d2k,d7k) as well. i also liked pairing with the AKGs and the 300 ohm senns.


----------



## Bjorn2379

Has anyone tried the Yulong DA8 with them? I'm actually planning on pulling the trigger for my LCD2.


----------



## Tony1110

Burson Conductor arriving tomorrow. Cannot wait


----------



## Dubstep Girl

tony1110 said:


> Burson Conductor arriving tomorrow. Cannot wait




Wow congrats!!


----------



## Tony1110

Thanks DG. I've been using and enjoying the Violectric stack for the past few weeks but I decided that I have too much audio equipment lying around my house so a 3-in-1 like the Conductor fits my needs perfectly. There will be a Violectric 200, a Beyerdynamic T1 and an LCD-2 going up for sale in the coming weeks. With the proceeds I'll buy the LCD-3 and a decent USB interface and then I'm done with headphone obsessing - for a while anyway


----------



## Dubstep Girl

I thoughtconductor had decent usb


----------



## Tony1110

I've been told it can be troublesome.


----------



## Tony1110

Do you use the Mytek USB? Or that SPDIF converter you have up for sale?


----------



## Dubstep Girl

mytek usb. its pretty good implementation  as far as i know. it is asynchronous as well and if i had USB/SPDIF converter, i wouldn't be able to do DSD through the myteks usb.
   
  so far no problems here and really happy how it plays DSD just as easily as PCM and with no issues at all. (on jriver 18mc windows 7)
   
   
  i liked my usb/spdif on my digital link III though, really improved its sound over the regular USB which sucked.


----------



## Tony1110

If you look at the Conductor thread they're all raving about the USB interfaces they have. The man who sold me the Conductor swears by the Audiophilleo 2. I'd never really thought of them as significant upgrades but now I'm starting to think that there must be something in it. I downloaded the ASIO driver for the Burson last night. I'll see how the USB is on that and perhaps loan an Audiophilleo before taking the plunge. Apparently they can improve most DACs. Don't know how many of them are compatible with DSD though.


----------



## haejuk

I've been wanting to ask for awhile now, so I might as well.  Am I missing anything by using LCD-2 with a Burson HA-160D?  It sounds really smooth and far better than anything else I have tried, but I know it lacks in power compared to the usually recommended amps in this thread.  As far as I can tell, that just means that I will get clipping when I turn it up, but I can't go much past 12:00 on low gain without it getting too loud, and I don't notice any clipping at those levels.  Should I be ok with my Burson, or is it worth it to upgrade?


----------



## Tony1110

You'll read plenty on here that might make you feel the need to upgrade but you have a great amp already. I don't think LCD-2 really needs 4 watts to sound good. 

Having said that, the Burson Conductor is awesome


----------



## kothganesh

haejuk said:


> I've been wanting to ask for awhile now, so I might as well.  Am I missing anything by using LCD-2 with a Burson HA-160D?  It sounds really smooth and far better than anything else I have tried, but I know it lacks in power compared to the usually recommended amps in this thread.  As far as I can tell, that just means that I will get clipping when I turn it up, but I can't go much past 12:00 on low gain without it getting too loud, and I don't notice any clipping at those levels.  Should I be ok with my Burson, or is it worth it to upgrade?



IMHO, the Conductor and LCD 2 make a great pair. I own the Soloist and am completely satisfied. What you might miss though is a little energy that a Lyr might bring to the table (again, in my experience).


----------



## barid

I had both 160d and soloist. Liked both. I found the major difference in the low end. The 160d has more of it, the soloist sounds more refined. 

Ultimately i think the 160d is just fine unless you want to burn cash. That being said i plan to buy a conductor again after the leben.


----------



## haejuk

Quote: 





barid said:


> I had both 160d and soloist. Liked both. I found the major difference in the low end. The 160d has more of it, the soloist sounds more refined.
> 
> Ultimately i think the 160d is just fine unless you want to burn cash. That being said i plan to buy a conductor again after the leben.


 
  Thanks for this.  I had thought about the power difference and what it could mean for LCD-2, but the biggest benefit I could figure out was like 6 dB more headroom, which I don't need.  I will now happily stick my 160D


----------



## Dubstep Girl

i've been thinking of trying out soloist myself for LCD-3 and HE-500..... wish i still had LCD-2 to try it out with again, its one hell of a combo with LCD-2, endgame sound.


----------



## kothganesh

Quote: 





dubstep girl said:


> i've been thinking of trying out soloist myself for LCD-3 and HE-500..... wish i still had LCD-2 to try it out with again, its one hell of a combo with LCD-2, endgame sound.


 
  I was a little underwhelmed with the Soloist/LCD 3/HE 500 (to my ears). I wanted to get the latest GS amp from Justin but decided not to wait 12 weeks (or longer). I bought the Gungnir/Mjolnir stack and to me, this is near end-game.


----------



## Chris_Himself

Quote: 





kothganesh said:


> I was a little underwhelmed with the Soloist/LCD 3/HE 500 (to my ears). I wanted to get the latest GS amp from Justin but decided not to wait 12 weeks (or longer). I bought the Gungnir/Mjolnir stack and to me, this is near end-game.


 
   
  I once thought that. Once.


----------



## linglingjr

chris_himself said:


> I once thought that. Once.



Lol I see the lcd 2 has moved into the "gone" list on your profile, what did you upgrade to?


----------



## Tony1110

dubstep girl said:


> i've been thinking of trying out soloist myself for LCD-3 and HE-500..... wish i still had LCD-2 to try it out with again, its one hell of a combo with LCD-2, endgame sound.




You should. You need a good, powerful SS amp in your collection. It would be great for your Fostex too.


----------



## amoeba1126

Guys, I would appreciate any and all feedback. I am struggling between getting a Burson Soloist or the Yulong A18 for my Audeze LCD-2 rev2. If there is anyone who has had the chance to listen to both amps using the LCD-2, can you let me know your thoughts? Thanks!


----------



## zilch0md

amoeba1126 said:


> Guys, I would appreciate any and all feedback. I am struggling between getting a Burson Soloist or the Yulong A18 for my Audeze LCD-2 rev2. If there is anyone who has had the chance to listen to both amps using the LCD-2, can you let me know your thoughts? Thanks!




I strongly recommend you read the posts of "Gary in MD" at the "Speaker amps for headphones" thread. 

Gary's writings evidence a great ear and the ability to communicate what he hears. He's an experienced HiFi guy who's jumping into Head-Fi, buying, comparing, and returning amps at the moment, for suitability with his having previously settled on the LCD-3. 

Having dismissed the Burson Soloist and a few other amps, he has narrowed his search down to two speaker amps: The 32W into 8-Ohm TBI Millemia MG3 and the 110W into 8-Ohm Odyssey Cyclops.

http://www.head-fi.org/t/649107/speaker-amps-for-headphones/480_20#post_9673952

Mike


----------



## amoeba1126

Quote: 





zilch0md said:


> I strongly recommend you read the posts of "Gary in MD" at the "Speaker amps for headphones" thread.
> 
> Gary's writings evidence a great ear and the ability to communicate what he hears. He's an experienced HiFi guy who's jumping into Head-Fi, buying, comparing, and returning amps at the moment, for suitability with his having previously settled on the LCD-3.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Cool thanks! Can either of those speaker amps be safely used with headphones?


----------



## stuartypoorty

Hello,
   
Currently using Grado RS-1 headphones with a LaRocco PR II.
   
Considering a set of Audeze LCD-2.2 as replacements.
   
I have a question for Audeze users: will the LaRocco prove adequate to drive the Audeze cans? 
As I often travel the LaRocco is ideal for my needs.
   
I see the PR II mentioned as one of the partnering amps in the 50 best shoot out, do any forum members have experience with this combination.
   
I live in the UK and each dealer is a considerable distance from me.
   
Thanks,
Stuart


----------



## zilch0md

Quote: 





amoeba1126 said:


> Cool thanks! Can either of those speaker amps be safely used with headphones?


 
   
  More safely with Audeze and HiFiMan orthos than with dynamic headphones that can't handle as many Watts.  I read in the Emotiva a-100 Mini-X thread that Audeze support says you can directly connect the LCD-2/3 to a speaker amps' terminals with amps rated as high as 80 Watts per channel into 8 Ohms.  That translates to about 13 Watts per channel into 50 Ohms.  But lots of people have gone to even higher power amps.  You just have to be diligent with how you turn on, connect, disconnect, and turn off the amp, as well as how you handle the volume control.  Best practice is to turn down the amp's volume control before turning on the amp and to turn it down again before turning off the amp.  If the amp has anything in the way of a significant pop, even with the volume turned down, you could also connect the headphones only after turning on the amp disconnect before turning it off. 
   
  I'm using LCD--2 with the Emotiva a-100 Mini-X (50 Wpc into 8-Ohm, which translates to about 8 Wpc into 50-Ohm - where the Soloist is only about 1.2 Wpc into 50-Ohm).   I've not had any problems, but with the standard 2Vrms signal coming from my CEntrance DACmini CX' DAC section, I have to keep the amp's volume control at or below 9 o'clock - which makes it fairly sensitive to fine tune, but not annoying in the least.
   
   

   

   
  I've inserted a Decware ZSTAGE between the DACmini CX and the Emotiva a-100 Mini-X, to smooth the treble and to enjoy the sound tailoring that comes with tube rolling - but lots of people find the currently $189 Emotiva amp to be terrific, when directly fed by whatever DAC they use.  I think I can say with some objectivity, however, that the Emotiva is a little bit brighter (than neutral) and a little bit harsh in the treble - thus the tube buffer.  But that might just be my tastes or a lack of synergy with the DACmini CX DAC which, on its own, does have a bit of a etch to in the treble - at least enough to not play well with the Emotiva - not with both the DAC and the amp being very detailed.  
   
  The LCD-2 plugged directly into the DACmini CX headphone jack is about perfect, in my opinion, except for the tremendous dynamics and bass control that come with more power.  Lastly, the Emotiva + ZSTAGE isn't harsh, but the tube kills some of the resolution I crave.  So... I'm very interested in Gary in MD's experiments with the TBI Millenia M3 and the Odyssey Cyclops, especially.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
Here's a photo of a Cyclops Extreme that sold on AudioAsylumTrader, recently.
   
  By the way, the integrated, 110 Wpc Odyssey Cyclops is, essentially, a Odyssey Khartago amp, with a pre-amp added to the same chassis.  Check out this Absolute Sound review of the Khartago as an indicator of why Gary of MD decided to test the Cyclops as an amp for his LCD-3.
   
  Resistor networks can be added at the speaker taps for use with more sensitive headphones (with resistors running parallel, across the terminals, to protect the headphones) and/or with resistors in series, to match impedance and possibly protect the amp).  If anyone who understands this stuff better than I do cares to make a correction to anything I've said, please jump in, but my understanding is that you really don't need any resistors if you are connecting Audeze or HiFiMan orthos.  Gary's getting a better sound quality by doing so for his LCD-3, however, at least with the TBI Millenia MG3.
   
  Mike


----------



## wizia

That's a very interesting read, thanks zilch0md.


----------



## zilch0md

You're welcome!


----------



## amoeba1126

Quote: 





zilch0md said:


> More safely with Audeze and HiFiMan orthos than with dynamic headphones that can't handle as many Watts.  I read in the Emotiva a-100 Mini-X thread that Audeze support says you can directly connect the LCD-2/3 to a speaker amps' terminals with amps rated as high as 80 Watts per channel into 8 Ohms.  That translates to about 13 Watts per channel into 50 Ohms.  But lots of people have gone to even higher power amps.  You just have to be diligent with how you turn on, connect, disconnect, and turn off the amp, as well as how you handle the volume control.  Best practice is to turn down the amp's volume control before turning on the amp and to turn it down again before turning off the amp.  If the amp has anything in the way of a significant pop, even with the volume turned down, you could also connect the headphones only after turning on the amp disconnect before turning it off.
> 
> I'm using LCD--2 with the Emotiva a-100 Mini-X (50 Wpc into 8-Ohm, which translates to about 8 Wpc into 50-Ohm - where the Soloist is only about 1.2 Wpc into 50-Ohm).   I've not had any problems, but with the standard 2Vrms signal coming from my CEntrance DACmini CX' DAC section, I have to keep the amp's volume control at or below 9 o'clock - which makes it fairly sensitive to fine tune, but not annoying in the least.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Thank you for the informative response. Will I be able to use the Cyclops with earphones?


----------



## zilch0md

Quote: 





amoeba1126 said:


> Thank you for the informative response. Will I be able to use the Cyclops with earphones?


 
   
  What do you mean by "earphones?"  
   
  It's important to understand that I'm not recommending the Odyssey Cyclops for anyone's use - not yet, anyway.  I've never heard it and I only know one person (Gary in MD) who has tried it - and he has only just begun experimenting with the Cyclops and the Audeze LCD-3.
   
  110 Watts (per channel into 8-Ohms) is more than the maximum 80 Watts that Audeze support says can be used with the LCD-3.  I don't know how much your "earphones" cost, but even if they're not worth $2000, like the LCD-3, I'd think twice about hooking them up to a 110-Watt speaker amp.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




   Remember also that dynamic headphones can't handle as many watts as orthos can.  
   
  Let's wait and see what Gary in MD reports on the Cyclops at the Speaker amps for headphones thread.   
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Mike


----------



## DefQon

Just to add on, I've had earphones and high impedence dynamic headphones killed by hooking them up to tube/power and integrated amplifiers. No resistors used but a dummy load did kill one of the test K701's I had at the time (gosh hated that headphone).


----------



## Chris_Himself

Quote: 





linglingjr said:


> Lol I see the lcd 2 has moved into the "gone" list on your profile, what did you upgrade to?


 
   
  Oh I rarely update my stuff, I still run 2's. I tried going back to HD800 but it's a bit sharp for me. It's not deathly like some anti-800 people would have, but I really proved to myself that I'll take a bit less detail for sonic comfort. I operate with cans on my head for about 4-5 hours a day if not more if you can understand. There are analytical listeners who "know" headphones, but headphones really are my life.
   
  Whats the latest and greatest amp for these? I've been away from Head-Fi for a while LOL. Been a little busy with the site changes and all.


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





chris_himself said:


> Whats the latest and greatest amp for these? I've been away from Head-Fi for a while LOL. Been a little busy with the site changes and all.


 
  BHSE + 007mk1 or 009.


----------



## Chris_Himself

Quote: 





defqon said:


> BHSE + 007mk1 or 009.


 
   
  Wow that is a lot of money downrange LOL


----------



## DefQon

Yup LOL!


----------



## dan.gheorghe

Quote: 





kothganesh said:


> I was a little underwhelmed with the Soloist/LCD 3/HE 500 (to my ears). I wanted to get the latest GS amp from Justin but decided not to wait 12 weeks (or longer). I bought the Gungnir/Mjolnir stack and to me, this is near end-game.


 
  Conductor/soloist is a very good combo with lcd2. However, the interconnects / power cable can change your experience with it. I didn't like the wireworld aurora power cable with it for example.


----------



## NZheadcase

tony1110 said:


> You should. You need a good, powerful SS amp in your collection. It would be great for your Fostex too.




+1

Th900 and the soloist is very good. I reserve the right not to say great and awesome until i have heard other amps with the th900. With no burn in, they are already keepers in my book paired with the soloist. however, LCD 2 and Soloist is already a great pairing (to my ears, of course).


----------



## Tony1110

This guy's post really made me want to try the combo 

http://www.head-fi.org/t/653932/item-audio-burson-soloist-fostex-th-900


----------



## formula1

Quote: 





tony1110 said:


> This guy's post really made me want to try the combo
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/653932/item-audio-burson-soloist-fostex-th-900


 
   
  He describes pretty much what i feel with the TH-900's now, i went for the conductor because i needed more functions. Im happy.


----------



## Jesterphile

I already posted this in the LCD-2 thread but this one seems more active so...
   
 I'm in the process of making a 'transportable rig' I've bought an Audioquest Dragonfly to use as a DAC/Amp for my SRH840's for on the run, but I'd like to get a smallish amp to take with me when I visit my parents etc so I can take the LCD-2s with me.
  
 My current short list is

 Corda Quickstep
 AHA-120
 Corda Concerto (Probably the upper limit in size)
   
 Anyone got any recommendations? As you can see by the Concerto I'm not looking for anything tiny, just something that isn't incredibly bulky with tubes sticking out the top


----------



## DemonFox

Rk Mk3b+ Came in a few days ago and yah, its far and away the strongest portable I've ever heard. Gives weight to the sound not just ear piercing volume which it can do as well but why... Its powers my LCD's unlike anything I've ever owned. The + version on the Mk3 also has also improved its lower gain setting so if I have sensitive IEM's and lower impedance cans I can still use with without having that God awful hiss. Very impressed. 
   
  Also not sure if I mentioned this at another time but the Headstage Arrow 3G is still one of the best amps I've ever used with the LCD's. Drives it with major umph and the bass boost feels like it was made for the LCD's. Used for $200 and under I doubt there is a better option out there at least from a portable standpoint. 
   
  Thanks,


----------



## zilch0md

Quote: 





jesterphile said:


> I already posted this in the LCD-2 thread but this one seems more active so...
> 
> I'm in the process of making a 'transportable rig' I've bought an Audioquest Dragonfly to use as a DAC/Amp for my SRH840's for on the run, but I'd like to get a smallish amp to take with me when I visit my parents etc so I can take the LCD-2s with me.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Quickstep, yes!


----------



## demon321

I recommend Bakoon amp. I have heard it with LCD3 the sound is fantastic. THen The LCD2 should work too.


----------



## Jesterphile

Quote: 





demon321 said:


> I recommend Bakoon amp. I have heard it with LCD3 the sound is fantastic. THen The LCD2 should work too.


 
  The Bakoon looks sexy. Bloody expensive though.


----------



## BournePerfect

Well-I'm in. I have a balanced LCD 2.2 and BHA-1 arriving in short order this week. Should be interesting as it will probably be the polar opposite of the HD800 rigs I own and love so much. I promise to give them a fair shake though. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  -Daniel


----------



## longbowbbs

Quote: 





bourneperfect said:


> Well-I'm in. I have a balanced LCD 2.2 and BHA-1 arriving in short order this week. Should be interesting as it will probably be the polar opposite of the HD800 rigs I own and love so much. I promise to give them a fair shake though.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## molika

between the v200 and the woo wa6 which one would pair better with the lcd-2.2.


----------



## jsgraha

I prefer v200, although wa6 is quite good as well.
If you can, you should audition soloist or soloist sl on your price bracket.

I have wa6se (with all the tubes on my profile) that I keep thinking to let go...
Kindly pm me if interest in them.


----------



## Dubstep Girl

Quote: 





jsgraha said:


> I prefer v200, although wa6 is quite good as well.
> If you can, you should audition soloist or soloist sl on your price bracket.
> 
> I have wa6se (with all the tubes on my profile) that I keep thinking to let go...
> Kindly pm me if interest in them.


 
   
  so what do you think WA6-SE vs. Soloist with LCD-2? especially with 596 tube/6GL7/6FD7?


----------



## jsgraha

Soloist vs 6SE in general, IMO or course, Soloist is more laid back while 6SE more assertive. Treble on 6SE is more extended (depend on tube as well), while soloist drier. The mid on 6SE have a touch of euphonic. Basically, if I summarize 6SE in one word, it's "fun", while Soloist "laid-back neutral".
  I keep all my setup (inc soloist, exc 6SE) on 24/7, and anytime I'm going to give a quick listen, I just plug my hp.
   
  Also, I'm not a good audiophile, I guess 
  With my chores, children and work (in 2 cities), probably on average, I only listen my desktop setup for about 1 hr/day.
  More on weekend, but not by much.
   
  On a month, probably I turn on my 6SE (on weekend), only 4 times a month. And I wait at least 1 hour, before listening.
  In ideal world, I would like to have one tube setup and one ss setup.
  But it seem in my case, I may have to give up my tube...


----------



## Tony1110

Saw a Woo WA6-SE on eBay UK last night. It was listed an hour prior to me spotting it but within the 5 minutes it took to decide how much to offer the seller it had already gone. Gutted! Really want to try one.

Soloist/Conductor is wonderful with LCD 2 though. It gets better every time I listen. I don't find it laid back at all compared to V200.


----------



## Wyd4

Thanks for the head amp advice previously in this post but I must say its almost overwhelming trying to go through the hundreds of pages.
I am currently debating between a few options. Barring in mind I need to be able to get this to work and back daily, otherwise I would get the lyr.

Modo/magni by Schiit
Alo pan am
Alo international (though I don't know how I feel about a portable as my main amp, nor do I know how much better it would power them than my e12, though I have heard some good things.
Burson soloist sl.

I really don't know which way to go.
Another issue is going the burson lcds me with no money for a real dac, meaning I would be stuck with an e17, which would let that anp down.
Any other suggestions for transportable amps/dacs for sub $600

Thanks guys and girls you are awesome


----------



## wgxbyzvbL

This is a very "organic" sounding headphone, as opposed to a clinical, sterile, or dark sounding one. It's sound strikes as effortless, and completely unstrained.
   
  Spotlessly "clean" is another term that comes to mind.  The Pro-900s lack the cleanness of the ED8.  The ED8 lacks the cleanness of the LCD-2.  The LCD-2 goes much deeper than either of the Ultrasones, yet the midrange and high end are spotless and pristine.  The Ultrasones, are "punchier."  The sonics of the LCD-2 are completely integrated from top to bottom.


----------



## Zashoomin

Quote: 





wyd4 said:


> Thanks for the head amp advice previously in this post but I must say its almost overwhelming trying to go through the hundreds of pages.
> I am currently debating between a few options. Barring in mind I need to be able to get this to work and back daily, otherwise I would get the lyr.
> 
> Modo/magni by Schiit
> ...


 
  If it needs to be transportable I would not go with the Soloist SL.  Though smaller than the Soloist it is still heavy and quite large.  Honestly I would go with the ALO Pan Am in this case.


----------



## i019791

Quote: 





wyd4 said:


> Any other suggestions for transportable amps/dacs for sub $600


 
  Audio gd NFB-11.32


----------



## Tony1110

wyd4 said:


> Thanks for the head amp advice previously in this post but I must say its almost overwhelming trying to go through the hundreds of pages.
> I am currently debating between a few options. Barring in mind I need to be able to get this to work and back daily, otherwise I would get the lyr.
> 
> Modo/magni by Schiit
> ...




Sennheiser Momentum


----------



## Wyd4

tony1110 said:


> Sennheiser Momentum


Discuss


----------



## Tony1110

It sounds like you need a portable headphone and the Momentum is supposed to have a similar signature. I don't think it has but that's what they say in the Momentum thread.


----------



## Wyd4

tony1110 said:


> It sounds like you need a portable headphone and the Momentum is supposed to have a similar signature. I don't think it has but that's what they say in the Momentum thread.



I only need it to be transportable as I don't like the idea of leaving hardware at work. I commute with a small suitcase I guess you would call it. I use in ears for portable.
I only want a transportable amp while I am at work (where I listen to music the most)

Yeah I wouldn't agree with the momentums sounding similar. I sold my momentum's and vmodas to buy the lcd and even with my current sub par setup they are worlds apart IMO


----------



## Wyd4

i019791 said:


> Audio gd NFB-11.32



I was looking at the audio gd amps. Apparently the 11.32 is quite bright due to the sabre chip. Though I have not heard the amp to say whether or not this is a good thing with the lcd.
I was also looking at the 15.2 as I think it uses the Wolfson DAC, again though your advice would be appreciated here as I have no comparison point with this going to be my first desktop setup if you will.
The 5.32 I think is too big for the commute with a bigger form factor than the 2 mentioned above. 
I may have to measure up the space left in my case when I get into work in 20 mins


----------



## Tony1110

If I were in your shoes - and I haven't heard any of the amps on your shortlist - I'd probably go for the Pan Am as it fits your needs and is supposed to be great with LCD-2. Failing that, you could save your pennies for a WA7 - although that might be a bit heavy


----------



## DefQon

If you're spending $1k on a WA7, I see it as a waste of money as you can get the LD MK VI+. None of the Woo compares except the WA5 in sound perspective. First hand experience here as I've compared them because I was a little skeptical of the VI+ praise back then.


----------



## Tony1110

Yeah, I only mentioned WA7 because it looks small and transportable (despite the weight). I researched it a few weeks ago. Some say it's great, others say that it's outdone by O2 and ODAC. I've always had my suspicions that it's a style over substance amp.


----------



## i019791

wyd4 said:


> I was looking at the audio gd amps. Apparently the 11.32 is quite bright due to the sabre chip. Though I have not heard the amp to say whether or not this is a good thing with the lcd.
> I was also looking at the 15.2 as I think it uses the Wolfson DAC, again though your advice would be appreciated here as I have no comparison point with this going to be my first desktop setup if you will.
> The 5.32 I think is too big for the commute with a bigger form factor than the 2 mentioned above.
> I may have to measure up the space left in my case when I get into work in 20 mins


 I remember that nfb-12 (nfb-15.32 predecessor)was too warm for me with Senn hd-650, while the Senn was very good with neutral audio gds. By analogy the 11.32 and lcd2 could match well. Better perhaps to ask in the 11.32 thread


----------



## radlyant

Hi all I just ordered the LCD 2 and was wondering if the NuForce Icon HDP or the iFi iCan would be viable options for amps, right now I intend to use these headphones with my turntable that uses a Pro-ject  amp box. I'm trying not to spend too much and preferably keep it under 1k.


----------



## DarKen23




----------



## nigeljames

Quote: 





wyd4 said:


> I was looking at the audio gd amps. Apparently the 11.32 is quite bright due to the sabre chip. Though I have not heard the amp to say whether or not this is a good thing with the lcd.
> I was also looking at the 15.2 as I think it uses the Wolfson DAC, again though your advice would be appreciated here as I have no comparison point with this going to be my first desktop setup if you will.
> The 5.32 I think is too big for the commute with a bigger form factor than the 2 mentioned above.
> I may have to measure up the space left in my case when I get into work in 20 mins


 
   
  Audio-gd do not do 'bright' gear.
  Also the Sabre32 chip is not a bright chip just fully extended up high.


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





tony1110 said:


>





> I've always had my suspicions that it's a style over substance amp.


 
  Your suspicions is bang on the money. Aesthetics and quality over actual circuit implementation and sound. And that's where most of the money are poured into on the Woo stuff.


----------



## dagothur

Quote: 





nigeljames said:


> Audio-gd do not do 'bright' gear.


 
  My amp is most certainly on the brighter side of neutral.  You can tell with a headphone in either extreme.


----------



## DarKen23

defqon said:


> > I've always had my suspicions that it's a style over substance amp.
> 
> 
> 
> Your suspicions is bang on the money. Aesthetics and quality over actual circuit implementation and sound. And that's where most of the money are poured into on the Woo stuff.



My wallet would like to personally thank you for your input. I can now look past the woo stuff.


----------



## Headphonejunky

I currently own the Vmoda M100 and will be using those on the Go and using my Ferrari T350 on the plane for noise cancelling. My next major investment is going after the LCD2 which I am doing in stages. The headphone amplifier i would like to purchase next. 
   
  I was wondering thoughts on the HIFIM8 portable amplifier.
   






  
 I was looking at using this as I will be using an Ipod or Iphone 5, or my computer direct through USB. I will be using the regular headphone jack for my M100 and planning on using the balanced XLR cables for the LCD2.
  
 So is this the right amplifier if I am looking at LCD2? Also is balanced worth it?


----------



## dagothur

Quote: 





headphonejunky said:


> So is this the right amplifier if I am looking at LCD2? Also is balanced worth it?


 
  In my experience, very much so.  More power, more control, and a more refined sound.


----------



## DarKen23

headphonejunky said:


> I currently own the Vmoda M100 and will be using those on the Go and using my Ferrari T350 on the plane for noise cancelling. My next major investment is going after the LCD2 which I am doing in stages. The headphone amplifier i would like to purchase next.
> 
> I was wondering thoughts on the HIFIM8 portable amplifier.
> 
> ...



I'm sure the portable amp can drive it at decent levels but there's a big difference between portable amps and desktop amps. Personally I've never felt that portable amps do the LCD2 justice. You have to consider other things in the chain as well, and if we're talking about portable stuff then your dac isn't going to be quite ideal for headphones like the LCD2.


----------



## mentt

Can somebody comment if Musical Fidelity M1 DAC is good match with LCD2? If not which DAC is better choice for LCD2?


----------



## DarKen23

mentt said:


> Can somebody comment if Musical Fidelity M1 DAC is good match with LCD2? If not which DAC is better choice for LCD2?



Get the one that sounds best to you.


----------



## levinhatz

Quote: 





mentt said:


> Can somebody comment if Musical Fidelity M1 DAC is good match with LCD2? If not which DAC is better choice for LCD2?


 
   
  It does a pretty decent job, but I think the Music Hall 25.3 does better for the money.


----------



## radlyant

Hi guys what are your thoughts on the TBI Millenia MG3 amp ? And if I do get it, do I need a DAC and which one would be a good one ?


----------



## molika

Would a metrum octave or a jkdac32  be a good match for lcd2.2 and a soloist amp. Or is the v200 a better choose.


----------



## DarKen23

molika said:


> Would a metrum octave or a jkdac32  be a good match for lcd2.2 and a soloist amp. Or is the v200 a better choose.



The metrum octave is a great dac. Between the soloist and v200, I prefer the v200.


----------



## Headphonejunky

Quote: 





darken23 said:


> I'm sure the portable amp can drive it at decent levels but there's a big difference between portable amps and desktop amps. Personally I've never felt that portable amps do the LCD2 justice. You have to consider other things in the chain as well, and if we're talking about portable stuff then your dac isn't going to be quite ideal for headphones like the LCD2.


 
  So what do you mean by that. What is the big difference between a DAC desktop and a DAC portable. The Hifim8 is a class A portable headphone amplifier. Please explain. I dont want to put my eggs all in one basket if is not right.


----------



## Headphonejunky

Quote: 





darken23 said:


> The metrum octave is a great dac. Between the soloist and v200, I prefer the v200.


 
  Finally a headphone amplifier that lists damping factor. Lists it at a 50 ohm load with 800 damping factor. Thats awesome as far as amps are concerned. But why no XLR connectors?


----------



## molika

Thx for your reply DarKen23.   I think I will be going with the v200.
   
  Headphonejunky - I've thought about the mjolnir but decided to go SE. All my other cans are SE as are my DACs. Also I can buy the soloist and v200 locally.
   
  Cheers


----------



## DarKen23

headphonejunky said:


> darken23 said:
> 
> 
> > The metrum octave is a great dac. Between the soloist and v200, I prefer the v200.
> ...



There is a balanced version. Though slightly different.


----------



## Zashoomin

So I thought I would just write a little something about what I think about properly amping the LCD2 and 3.
   
  So when I first auditioned these headphones they sounded fantastic.  So organic and smooth with that base to die for but after I bought my own pair and hooked them up to my amp (a speaker amp)  I kept trying to figure out why everything sounded a bit off.  Just a couple days ago I finally finished building my Bottlehead SEX with C4S and Impedence Switch upgrade and plugged in my headphones and all I could do is gape in awe of how good everything sounded.  Lesson learned: PROPERLY AMP YOUR HEADPHONES.  When Audeze says they need at least 1W at 50ohms they mean it.  My SEX puts out 2W and finally the LCD2's can sing like they where meant to.  
   
  On another note to anyone who needs a recommendation for an amp and is willing to build one, the Bottlehead SEX is the best amp I have heard with these headphones to date.  Minus the EC Ballancing Act but that is effectively 6 time the price.


----------



## DarKen23

zashoomin said:


> So I thought I would just write a little something about what I think about properly amping the LCD2 and 3.
> 
> So when I first auditioned these headphones they sounded fantastic.  So organic and smooth with that base to die for but after I bought my own pair and hooked them up to my amp (a speaker amp)  I kept trying to figure out why everything sounded a bit off.  Just a couple days ago I finally finished building my Bottlehead SEX with C4S and Impedence Switch upgrade and plugged in my headphones and all I could do is gape in awe of how good everything sounded.  Lesson learned: PROPERLY AMP YOUR HEADPHONES.  When Audeze says they need at least 1W at 50ohms they mean it.  My SEX puts out 2W and finally the LCD2's can sing like they where meant to.
> 
> On another note to anyone who needs a recommendation for an amp and is willing to build one, the Bottlehead SEX is the best amp I have heard with these headphones to date.  Minus the EC Ballancing Act but that is effectively 6 time the price.



I was getting 5v@50ohms . Do you prefer a tube amp for the LCD? I much more preferred a solid state, while many prefer a tube

Btw, how are you liking the headband? .


----------



## Zashoomin

Quote: 





darken23 said:


> I was getting 5v@50ohms
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  You know I could say I like tube or SS but honestly some SS sound like tube and some tube sound like SS so I am not sure.  Overall though I prefer the tube sound.  But what I can say is that I have heard them through the SEX, Soloist, Gungir, Lyr and EC Ballancing Act and the best was the EC but at a reasonable price the SEX is my favorite so far.  I think DIY stuff is highly underrated because people don't have the time or patience to build them so I would really like to hear them off of the new Bottlehead Mainline and also the Beta22.  
   
  Honestly the foam is more comfortable but the leather looks better and still works just fine for me.  No discomfort so far.


----------



## DarKen23

zashoomin said:


> darken23 said:
> 
> 
> > I was getting 5v@50ohms  . Do you prefer a tube amp for the LCD? I much more preferred a solid state, while many prefer a tube
> ...



Indeed, my mjolnir has some tube characteristics while having transparency of solid states. It's all a matter of preference and synergy really. 
The gungnir is not an amp btw. I don't if you were referring it as a amp given that you've listed only amps.


----------



## Zashoomin

Quote: 





darken23 said:


> Indeed, my mjolnir has some tube characteristics while having transparency of solid states. It's all a matter of preference and synergy really.
> The gungnir is not an amp btw. I don't if you were referring it as a amp given that you've listed only amps.


 
  Ya sorry I mean Mjolnir.  Ya it is a fantastic sounding amp but I think the DIY stuff which is a lot cheaper competes with it or surpasses it.  On the down side though you have to spend many many hours building it yourself.


----------



## DarKen23

zashoomin said:


> darken23 said:
> 
> 
> > Indeed, my mjolnir has some tube characteristics while having transparency of solid states. It's all a matter of preference and synergy really.
> ...


Lol


----------



## Barra

Has anyone tried the balanced 901 with the LCD2s balanced or single ended? Does the balanced 901 do a reasonable job of driving the LCD2s? How does the 901 compare to some of these desktop setups?


----------



## Todeon

Hey everyone! Sorry if this has been asked before but just wondering... Can i use lcd 2 rev 2 with audioquest dragonfly>matrix m-stage or just straight out of either one or is it not a good match? Which one is the better/do you recommend something else? I have a budget of about 300$ for a new amp if thats necessary... Thanks!


----------



## Jesterphile

Quote: 





todeon said:


> Hey everyone! Sorry if this has been asked before but just wondering... Can i use lcd 2 rev 2 with audioquest dragonfly>matrix m-stage or just straight out of either one or is it not a good match? Which one is the better/do you recommend something else? I have a budget of about 300$ for a new amp if thats necessary... Thanks!


 
  You'll need more powah to get the best out of them. Best bet is to look used for something at that budget (or any budget really) or DIY!


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





barra said:


> Has anyone tried the balanced 901 with the LCD2s balanced or single ended? Does the balanced 901 do a reasonable job of driving the LCD2s? How does the 901 compare to some of these desktop setups?


 
  The 901 can drive them but not adequately. Subjective on the volume though, but the LCD2/3's need a notch up or two more than regular headphones to sound better.


----------



## FredrikT92

I'm thinking about swapping my Conductor for something more exciting. 
   I listen to alot of electronica, EDM, Alternative rock/experiemental rock (like Radiohead) 
   
  Whats ur guys suggestion?


----------



## DarKen23

EDM? Mjolnir or BHA1, look no further


----------



## Archerious

Beta22 vs others around $1000 for my LCD-2 Rev 1. I would make a new thread, but perhaps many of you will assist . If it helps I have a M^3 right now, and while I like it, I want a more fun amp. In the past I used the Burson HA-160D, and I didn't really like it. So perhaps that helps  Oh and my DAC right now is the Bifrost Uber. I listen to rock, and a little bit of jazz 

Thanks,

Thomas


----------



## Zashoomin

Quote: 





vampire5003 said:


> Beta22 vs others around $1000 for my LCD-2 Rev 1. I would make a new thread, but perhaps many of you will assist
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Bottlehead SEX .  Sounds amazing with my LCD2.2's.  Man I need to mod mine. New Pot and Caps incoming.


----------



## Archerious

zashoomin said:


> Bottlehead SEX .  Sounds amazing with my LCD2.2's.  Man I need to mod mine. New Pot and Caps incoming.




Ok, well that's interesting, as I'd need to find a builder, just like with the Beta22. Well there are so many used Beta22 on the FS forum, it is simple. Perhaps a experienced DIY'er could build a S.E.X? First thing though is more suggestions, like what do others think? Usually on head-fi everyone disagrees with each other lol


----------



## DarKen23

vampire5003 said:


> zashoomin said:
> 
> 
> > Bottlehead SEX .  Sounds amazing with my LCD2.2's.  Man I need to mod mine. New Pot and Caps incoming.
> ...



Don't do the LCD with tubes man.


----------



## Zashoomin

Quote: 





vampire5003 said:


> Ok, well that's interesting, as I'd need to find a builder, just like with the Beta22. Well there are so many used Beta22 on the FS forum, it is simple. Perhaps a experienced DIY'er could build a S.E.X? First thing though is more suggestions, like what do others think? Usually on head-fi everyone disagrees with each other lol


 
  I bet you could find a builder.  But ya many people do have different opinions.
   
  Quote: 





darken23 said:


> Don't do the LCD with tubes man.


 
  I mean yes the SEX does that that "tube" sound but even than it does a very good job of controlling the LCD2's.  The base is well controlled and I don't have any problems with the highs either.  The one thing I will say about it is the mids could use a tad bit of work but I have heard the LCD's through a lot of different amps and so far the only one that I have found to trump it is the EC Ballancing Act.  I know you have the Schiit stack and while I respect it I still like mine better.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Also a lot of people go for the vioelectric V200 and that sounds more tube-y than a lot of tube amps so honestly its a matter of preference.


----------



## Archerious

zashoomin said:


> I bet you could find a builder.  But ya many people do have different opinions.
> 
> I mean yes the SEX does that that "tube" sound but even than it does a very good job of controlling the LCD2's.  The base is well controlled and I don't have any problems with the highs either.  The one thing I will say about it is the mids could use a tad bit of work but I have heard the LCD's through a lot of different amps and so far the only one that I have found to trump it is the EC Ballancing Act.  I know you have the Schiit stack and while I respect it I still like mine better.
> 
> ...




What does the Beta22 sound like? Is it transparent like the M^3 w/ sigma or different? I am so curious! Oh and about the casework, I'd probably be useless when it comes to that sort of thing. Shoot I don't even know how to opamp roll on my M^3


----------



## Archerious

darken23 said:


> Don't do the LCD with tubes man.




What's your amp recommendation?


----------



## Zashoomin

Quote: 





vampire5003 said:


> What does the Beta22 sound like? Is it transparent like the M^3 w/ sigma or different? I am so curious! Oh and about the casework, I'd probably be useless when it comes to that sort of thing. Shoot I don't even know how to opamp roll on my M^3


 
  The beta22 is more transparent than the M^3.  Both acctually use the same power supply.  Also the base is a bit punchier, tight and extended.  Also the highs will extend better as well and be less harsh and everything will be a bit more detailed.  Well opamp rolling is pretty easy. You just take out the old one and put in a new one.  There are a list of different opamps you can use to build the M^3 on the AMB website you can try to roll those in to start with.


----------



## Archerious

zashoomin said:


> The beta22 is more transparent than the M^3.  Both acctually use the same power supply.  Also the base is a bit punchier, tight and extended.  Also the highs will extend better as well and be less harsh and everything will be a bit more detailed.  Well opamp rolling is pretty easy. You just take out the old one and put in a new one.  There are a list of different opamps you can use to build the M^3 on the AMB website you can try to roll those in to start with.




So if I wanted a more fun, amplifier, with lots of details etc would Mjolnir be that amp? I love my Bifrost Uber, so the Schiit products are VERY appealing to me. Beta22 is so nice too, especially with a aluminum chassis.


----------



## Zashoomin

Quote: 





vampire5003 said:


> So if I wanted a more fun, amplifier, with lots of details etc would Mjolnir be that amp? I love my Bifrost Uber, so the Schiit products are VERY appealing to me. Beta22 is so nice too, especially with a aluminum chassis.


 
  If you want something that is very fun than you can also try out the vioelectic v200 it is known to be tube-y and a warm also will work well with the lcd's.  You could try the Schiit but it is only balanced so unless you have everything terminated in something that is balanced I would go with something with a single ended output unless you want to reterminate everything.  Otherwise though the Schiit puts out a lot of power so it is very good at controlling the lower end not to mention the detail that it outputs as well.  There is no question its a very good amp but I do think its a bit overhyped.  Also if you want an aluminum chassis that will be no problem as well.


----------



## Archerious

zashoomin said:


> If you want something that is very fun than you can also try out the vioelectic v200 it is known to be tube-y and a warm also will work well with the lcd's.  You could try the Schiit but it is only balanced so unless you have everything terminated in something that is balanced I would go with something with a single ended output unless you want to reterminate everything.  Otherwise though the Schiit puts out a lot of power so it is very good at controlling the lower end not to mention the detail that it outputs as well.  There is no question its a very good amp but I do think its a bit overhyped.  Also if you want an aluminum chassis that will be no problem as well.




Can you PM me a final price quote with everything including casework silver aluminum, and some kind of build time estimate. Lastly with the $ amount. 

Thanks,

Thomas


----------



## DarKen23

zashoomin said:


> vampire5003 said:
> 
> 
> > Ok, well that's interesting, as I'd need to find a builder, just like with the Beta22. Well there are so many used Beta22 on the FS forum, it is simple. Perhaps a experienced DIY'er could build a S.E.X? First thing though is more suggestions, like what do others think? Usually on head-fi everyone disagrees with each other lol
> ...



I agree it really is a matter of preference. But for orthos I much prefer a solid state, especially for EDM. And FYI, Ive never had the schiit STACK, I had a schiit amp, not the gungnir/Mjolnir which would be consider the "schiit stack". Im highly considering a tube amp down the road for my current HD800, Ive parted with the LCDs.


----------



## Archerious

darken23 said:


> I agree it really is a matter of preference. But for orthos I much prefer a solid state, especially for EDM. And FYI, Ive never had the schiit STACK, I had a schiit amp, not the gungnir/Mjolnir which would be consider the "schiit stack". Im highly considering a tube amp down the road for my current HD800, Ive parted with the LCDs.




What made you part with the LCD-2?! I love them for rock music . What music other than classical would the HD800's reproduce better?


----------



## DarKen23

vampire5003 said:


> darken23 said:
> 
> 
> > I agree it really is a matter of preference. But for orthos I much prefer a solid state, especially for EDM. And FYI, Ive never had the schiit STACK, I had a schiit amp, not the gungnir/Mjolnir which would be consider the "schiit stack". Im highly considering a tube amp down the road for my current HD800, Ive parted with the LCDs.
> ...



A broken neck is a very serious injury..






























All Jokes aside, there wasnt anything the HD800 couldnt do what the LCD2 had to offer. I found the lcd lacking too much in dynamics really, had it not been for the mjolnir-even EDM would have put me to sleep. LCD's bass was fun, but do you really believe the HD800 bass is non existent? Dont believe that "HD800 is only good for classical" crap.


----------



## philo50

Quote: 





darken23 said:


> A broken neck is a very serious injury..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## DarKen23

philo50 said:


> darken23 said:
> 
> 
> > A broken neck is a very serious injury..
> ...



Come at me bro, come


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





zashoomin said:


> Bottlehead SEX .  Sounds amazing with my LCD2.2's.  Man I need to mod mine. New Pot and Caps incoming.


 
  Isn't that an OTL tube amp? Not ideal for orthos or low impedance headphones generally. My WA2 was great with my T1s and HD800s, but not so much with my LCD-2s or any low impedance dynamic headphones. The high output impedance of the amp isn't ideal, nor is the low current output. But the voltage swings are great for high impedance cans.


----------



## philo50

too funny....


----------



## Jesterphile

Anyone got any experience using a lake people amp with the LCDs? I'm looking at the g109s as I've heard its less warm compared to the v200

I'm also interested in the pan am if anyone can comment on that pairing


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





jesterphile said:


> Anyone got any experience using a lake people amp with the LCDs? I'm looking at the g109s as I've heard its less warm compared to the v200
> 
> I'm also interested in the pan am if anyone can comment on that pairing


 
  For the $, I'd go with the Soloist and the LCD-2s. A better match IMO.


----------



## fishski13

Quote: 





vampire5003 said:


> What does the Beta22 sound like? Is it transparent like the M^3 w/ sigma or different? I am so curious! Oh and about the casework, I'd probably be useless when it comes to that sort of thing. Shoot I don't even know how to opamp roll on my M^3


 
   
  what pot or stepped attenuator is in your M3?  also, what opamps do you have?  the newer generation opamps sound better than those recommended on the AMB website.  if appropriate, i would get a better pot/attenuator and better opamps.  i don't think a B22 will make you any happier unless you need the extra voltage swing - which you don't driving the LCDs.  while the stock quiescent current bias is more than enough to keep the LCDs in Class A, it can be upped to B22 levels even with the stock heatsinks and a larger transformer if necessary.


----------



## Archerious

fishski13 said:


> what pot or stepped attenuator is in your M3?  also, what opamps do you have?  the newer generation opamps sound better than those recommended on the AMB website.  if appropriate, i would get a better pot/attenuator and better opamps.  i don't think a B22 will make you any happier unless you need the extra voltage swing - which you don't driving the LCDs.  while the stock quiescent current bias is more than enough to keep the LCDs in Class A, it can be upped to B22 levels even with the stock heatsinks and a larger transformer if necessary.




I don't know anything about DIY, in fact I'm looking for a thread on how to change opamps lol. I am good with PC's, I repair them, and build them but when it comes to amplifiers its like rocket science.


----------



## linglingjr

Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> For the $, I'd go with the Soloist and the LCD-2s. A better match IMO.


 
  lol what? The Soloist is a $900 amp and the G109S is $450.  I've heard that the Lake People amps pair very well with the LCD 2s.  That's what I plan I getting atm.


----------



## MacedonianHero

linglingjr said:


> lol what? The Soloist is a $900 amp and the G109S is $450.  I've heard that the Lake People amps pair very well with the LCD 2s.  That's what I plan I getting atm.




Just mentioned the Soloist because you we're talking about the V200.


----------



## Zashoomin

Quote: 





darken23 said:


> I agree it really is a matter of preference. But for orthos I much prefer a solid state, especially for EDM. And FYI, Ive never had the schiit STACK, I had a schiit amp, not the gungnir/Mjolnir which would be consider the "schiit stack". Im highly considering a tube amp down the road for my current HD800, Ive parted with the LCDs.


 
  Quote:  





> All Jokes aside, there wasnt anything the HD800 couldnt do what the LCD2 had to offer. I found the lcd lacking too much in dynamics really, had it not been for the mjolnir-even EDM would have put me to sleep. LCD's bass was fun, but do you really believe the HD800 bass is non existent? Dont believe that "HD800 is only good for classical" crap.


 
  Sorry I thought you had the stack.  Didn't realize you just had the amp.  Also I agree that in general solid state is better but there are always exceptions. 
   
  The HD800s sound good, very good but I think the LCD's sound better.  Smoother and the base, oh goodness that base.  What the HD800 I think is better at is treble, upper mids, soundstage and imaging but in detail, base, and lower mids the LCD has the edge.  Also on top of that the LCD's aren't as fatiguing and overall has a faster smoother sound.  But again...preference.  
  Quote: 





vampire5003 said:


> What made you part with the LCD-2?! I love them for rock music
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Honestly I heard some blues and jazz over the HD800s and I was amazed at how good it sounded but for anything like rock the LCDs are in my opinion better than the HD800s.  
   
  Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> Isn't that an OTL tube amp? Not ideal for orthos or low impedance headphones generally. My WA2 was great with my T1s and HD800s, but not so much with my LCD-2s or any low impedance dynamic headphones. The high output impedance of the amp isn't ideal, nor is the low current output. But the voltage swings are great for high impedance cans.


 
  No the Crack is an OTL the SEX is definately not OTL otherwise I can't explain the huge transformers that are all over the amp so it works very well with orthos and also the HD800s and T1.  I have the output impedence switches so I can even use it to power efficient speakers.


----------



## Jesterphile

macedonianhero said:


> Just mentioned the Soloist because you we're talking about the V200.




I understand why you mentioned the soloist. Its on my list as well and I'm currently leaning towards it


----------



## Zashoomin

Quote: 





jesterphile said:


> I understand why you mentioned the soloist. Its on my list as well and I'm currently leaning towards it


 
  I heard the soloist once and honestly wasn't extremely impressed by it but it definitely can drive the LCD's.  Maybe it was the source but I felt that for $1000 you could do better.  Honestly I liked the Schiit better than the Soloist.


----------



## DarKen23

zashoomin said:


> jesterphile said:
> 
> 
> > I understand why you mentioned the soloist. Its on my list as well and I'm currently leaning towards it
> ...


So basically you don't like every amp other than yours.


----------



## Zashoomin

Quote: 





darken23 said:


> So basically you don't like every amp other than yours.


 
  no...I do like mine and I think there are better I just don't think the soloist is worth it.  Like I said I like the Schiit also the V200.  If you want a list I have more.  
   
  Edit: I got mine for $500.  For $500 it is very good in my opinion one of the best. But again there are better.


----------



## DarKen23

zashoomin said:


> darken23 said:
> 
> 
> > So basically you don't like every amp other than yours.
> ...


OHHH I SEE..INTRIGUING


----------



## DefQon

The Sex is the non-OTL version of the Crack (different circuit but voiced with similar goals) which is suited for high Z headphones. The Sex is designed to push power into low Z headphones. Alternatively you can add a choke to the Crack and be able to run low Z headphones properly but how much it changes the sound compared with it I can't say. 
   
  The only tube amp I can recommend for the LCD2's or any power hungry headphone is the LD MK VI+ with the appropriate tubes this amp destroys every Woo I've had a play with up to the WA5 levels but yet again Jack Woo prefers aesthetics and quality over circuit implementations and that's where most of his high rise price charges are from.
   
  Given that I've built a few B22 and M3 amps both balanced, active and passive ground configurations, the M3 is almost a B22 except a few things, it is OPAMP based and as fishski has mentioned with the appropriate mA tuned with bigger sinks for heat dissipitation, power output levels can be matched to the B22, but a B22 can be pushed for more to suit what ever heavy duty load you will be powering it for.
   
  I would describe the M3 as a warm sounding version of the B22, the B22 complements the Audeze orthos very well (bright or flat sounding amp meets laid back warm darkness), the same as the Mjonir. I haven't heard the Bryston BHA-1 but it is often described as too clinical or bright sounding with the HD800's from other users so it may be a good match with the LCD2's.
   
  I really liked the Violectric V100/V200/V181 series amplifiers when I heard em few years back with the rev.2's when it came out (enjoyed it with the HD580/600/650's as well). The V100 is pretty much 80-90% of the V200 while costing $200-300 cheaper. I could not discern much differences between the V181 and V200 in SE mode but balanced out the soundstage is incremented by a subtle bit, subjectively enough for some to state it is a whole lot better but not the case IME.
   
  From what I've gathered the V181 is a balanced version of the V100 which I use to think it a balanced V200 due to hardly any differences in sound between the V200 SE out and the V181 SE out, but I was corrected on this. Opamp also has no affect on the Violectrics and is a good way to void your warranty. Avoid any of the Violectrics with the rev.1 LCD2's as it get's too romantic and mushy sounding.
   
  Although I'm not a fond fan of the Burson line of amps, the only decent sounding (but far from perfect matching) amp with the LCD2's is the Soloist/Conductor (same thing just with a DAC). Detail retrieval is not the biggest point of the Soloist but it is good sounding nonetheless, what I don't like may be something you may.
   
  And finally, if you have $600-800 to drop on a new or used Schiit Mjonir, I recommend doing so. I've been a bit wary of Schiits past amps due to the incident of some of there amps killing headphones with no DC relay implemented, the Mjonir is almost the perfect amp for the LCD2's rev.1 or rev.2 if you can dismiss the fact that you'll have to run balanced (so extra cost, but imho very worth it if you're after a bit of refinement). 
   
  Powering the orthos off speaker amp's/vintage amplifiers is a another whole story.
   
  As always imo.


----------



## DarKen23

defqon said:


> The Sex is the non-OTL version of the Crack (different circuit but voiced with similar goals) which is suited for high Z headphones. The Sex is designed to push power into low Z headphones. Alternatively you can add a choke to the Crack and be able to run low Z headphones properly but how much it changes the sound compared with it I can't say.
> 
> The only tube amp I can recommend for the LCD2's or any power hungry headphone is the LD MK VI+ with the appropriate tubes this amp destroys every Woo I've had a play with up to the WA5 levels but yet again Jack Woo prefers aesthetics and quality over circuit implementations and that's where most of his high rise price charges are from.
> 
> ...



Thank you kindly sir, as ive stated, I too found the Mjolnir to be THE amp for the LCD2. Why? Maybe because it was built around the Audeze headphone? Im not saying thats always the case with other amps but for a solid state, look no further.


----------



## Zashoomin

Quote: 





darken23 said:


> Thank you kindly sir, as ive stated, I too found the Mjolnir to be THE amp for the LCD2. Why? Maybe because it was built around the Audeze headphone? Im not saying thats always the case with other amps but for a solid state, look no further.


 
  The only problem I have found with it is it only has balanced outputs.  I don't know if its the amp but it is very good.


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





zashoomin said:


> I don't know if its the amp but it is very good.


 
  Huh ?


----------



## DarKen23

defqon said:


> zashoomin said:
> 
> 
> > I don't know if its the amp but it is very good.
> ...



I think I read that about 10x as well


----------



## DarKen23

I confuse


----------



## Zashoomin

haha you called it THE amp for the LCD 2's.   I said I am not sure if its THE amp but its very very good.


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





zashoomin said:


> haha you called it THE amp for the LCD 2's.   I said I am not sure if its THE amp but its very very good.


 
   
  Well so far every other experienced user who have had time with a lot of the mentioned amps for the LCD2's have said the Mjonir is pretty much the best. Of course subjective experiences vary as well, especially for those that like the LCD2's with certain tube amps.


----------



## DarKen23

zashoomin said:


> darken23 said:
> 
> 
> > Indeed, my mjolnir has some tube characteristics while having transparency of solid states. It's all a matter of preference and synergy really.
> ...



Dont mean to put you on the spot, but Id really like to know.


----------



## Zashoomin

Quote: 





darken23 said:


> Dont mean to put you on the spot, but Id really like to know.


 
  I think the Beta 22 competes with it.  If you are into DIY than you can get the parts for a 2 channel beta 22 for about $400 for a very cheap version of it.  But of course that cost doesn't include labor.


----------



## Archerious

Ok so Mjolnir vs my current M^3! Bifrost Uber vs D18. I can get a Yulong D18 and Mjolnir for $1000.


----------



## molika

totally agree, soloist and lcd-2 is a great match (esp if you buy in Australia - the Mjolnir is over $1000 down under and got the soloist for under $800). got my soloist 2 days ago and it does a very decent job running the lcd-2. now the search is for a decent dac. any views on the nad m51.
   
  MacedonianHero - macedonian folk music sounds so good on the lcd-2.2


----------



## NZheadcase

Quote: 





molika said:


> totally agree, soloist and lcd-2 is a great match (esp if you buy in Australia - the Mjolnir is over $1000 down under and got the soloist for under $800). got my soloist 2 days ago and it does a very decent job running the lcd-2. now the search is for a decent dac. any views on the nad m51.
> 
> MacedonianHero - macedonian folk music sounds so good on the lcd-2.2


 
   
  NAD-M51 + Soloist is a great match. Unfortunately I can only compare it to the Bifrost. M51+Soloist is better than Bifrost+Soloist in terms of soundstage, clarity, and coherence. Bass is also more nuanced on the NAD. Is it a leaps and bounds difference? I think no. Thankfully, since the Soloist has three inputs, it's easy to quickly AB. The NAD is also smoother in its presentation than the Bifrost (non uber).
   
  If you are thinking dollar for dollar performance, just know that law of diminishing returns come into play. Even a second hand NAD M51 is still about twice the price of a new Bifrost. If I had to put a percentage of improvement, I would say 20% better in terms of performance. 
   
  If you count the other features of the NAD - multiple inputs and outputs; balanced out; HDMI input and video passthru - then the cost of the NAD is justifiable. I use it for my PS3, Macbook, and Blu-ray and honestly, my only regret was I did not get it earlier. It is so flexible and convenient. I love it. This chain is easily my favorite (now) for the LCD2 more than the Lyr or Pan Am (the other amps in my setup).


----------



## molika

thx  NZheadcase, your impressions of the nad + soloist are very much appreciated.
   
  the usb gen 2 uber upgraded bifrost is around $700 while the nad around $1300 in Australia (for some reason the nad is much cheaper here than in the rest of the world). it's the features of the nad and the good reviews i've read that are swaying me that way and obviously the upgrade bug has bitten me. otherwise i have a few decent dacs including an octave, rega and jkdac32 that are not to bad with the burson. will be getting rid of them with the exception of the metrum.


----------



## Zashoomin

Quote: 





vampire5003 said:


> Ok so Mjolnir vs my current M^3! Bifrost Uber vs D18. I can get a Yulong D18 and Mjolnir for $1000.


 
  I would give the edge to the Mjolnir and the D18 but unless someone is giving them away I don't think you get get both for $1000.  The Mjolnir is at least $600 used and the D18 I haven't seen it lower than $600 as well.


----------



## Archerious

zashoomin said:


> I would give the edge to the Mjolnir and the D18 but unless someone is giving them away I don't think you get get both for $1000.  The Mjolnir is at least $600 used and the D18 I haven't seen it lower than $600 as well.




It was a offer I got from a friend. But at the same time if I return my Bifrost Uber, then that's $428 back, but then I'd have to sell the M^3. I'd be lucky if I get $500 for it since that's what I paid. Even then unless it's a good upgrade I lose around $100. I was also talking to him about $1060 for a Silver Balanced LCD-2 cable, and one balanced shielded interconnect to connect the DAC and Mjolnir together.


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





zashoomin said:


> I think the Beta 22 competes with it.  If you are into DIY than you can get the parts for a 2 channel beta 22 for about $400 for a very cheap version of it.  But of course that cost doesn't include labor.


 
  2 channel b22 for $400? Yeah sure you can it will probably burn your house down in the process. A properly built B22 2 channel configuration base parts will be around $400-450 including a basic 50va trafo for the o22 psu, price does not include case/enclosure/jacks/shipping. 
   
  You'd be looking at $500+ and assuming you already have some parts on hand and a very cheap crappy enclosure.
   
  Considering that you can readily buy a used Mjonir for as low as $600, that is imho bang for buck good value and better than your basic 2 channel b22.


----------



## Zashoomin

Quote: 





vampire5003 said:


> It was a offer I got from a friend. But at the same time if I return my Bifrost Uber, then that's $428 back, but then I'd have to sell the M^3. I'd be lucky if I get $500 for it since that's what I paid. Even then unless it's a good upgrade I lose around $100. I was also talking to him about $1060 for a Silver Balanced LCD-2 cable, and one balanced shielded interconnect to connect the DAC and Mjolnir together.


 
  So you are saying $1060 for everything or just the cables?
   
  Quote: 





defqon said:


> 2 channel b22 for $400? Yeah sure you can it will probably burn your house down in the process. A properly built B22 2 channel configuration base parts will be around $400-450 including a basic 50va trafo for the o22 psu, price does not include case/enclosure/jacks/shipping.
> 
> You'd be looking at $500+ and assuming you already have some parts on hand and a very cheap crappy enclosure.


 
  I mean I might be wrong but its like $100 per board plus about $100 for the psu and another $100 for the enclosure and you can mill it yourself so about $400.  I guess if you include the jacks and cables and everything else it would come to about $500.  ya your right never mind.


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





zashoomin said:


> So you are saying $1060 for everything or just the cables?
> 
> I mean I might be wrong but its like $100 per board plus about $100 for the psu and another $100 for the enclosure and you can mill it yourself so about $400.  I guess if you include the jacks and cables and everything else it would come to about $500.  ya your right never mind.


 
  That's also a very basic 2 channel based off the prices from GJA. Don't forget you'd need a pot which is not very expensive but adds up to the cost overall. Not to mention if you're going DIY the whole point is not skimp out on quality just because you have a small budget to begin with (but also saving money compared to retail), most would also opt for a better transformer.


----------



## Archerious

zashoomin said:


> So you are saying $1060 for everything or just the cables?




Everything, or at least was. I upset him by asking for a second opinion. As usual I **** something good up. Ah well, I guess I'll stick to my current setup.


----------



## spyrko

Hi, I've just read about last 50 posts but I haven't found any amp that could fulfill my requirements. I'm looking for the amp that can strengthen​ and boost the sub and lower bass spectrum of LCD-2's Rev2. I primarily need to hear what is going on between 40-120Hz as with a magnifying glass​. I'll be glad for any recommendations between $500-1000.
 Thanks.


----------



## Barry S

spyrko said:


> Hi, I've just read about last 50 posts but I haven't found any amp that could fulfill my requirements. I'm looking for the amp that can strengthen​ and boost the sub and lower bass spectrum of LCD-2's Rev2. I primarily need to hear what is going on between 40-120Hz as with a magnifying glass​. I'll be glad for any recommendations between $500-1000.
> Thanks.


 
  
 If the boosted bass is a listening preference, you may want to find another set of headphones. If you need to enhance the bass for technical reasons and aren't concerned with the overall musicality of the headphones, then EQ may be the solution. I (thankfully) don't know of any good amplifiers that are going to bloat the LCD2 bass and sub-bass.


----------



## spyrko

I'm sorry for my incorrect expression, I meant not to blow them to extremes, more likely to emphasize and extend details of the low end and perhaps to just a bit toughen it up.


----------



## Barry S

Do you currently have the LCD2s?


----------



## spyrko

Yes I have them for a few days and I quite like the low end they are able to reproduce but I feel I need it just a bit more emphasized and hear all its detail a bit more closely.


----------



## Barry S

spyrko said:


> Yes I have them for a few days and I quite like the low end they are able to reproduce but I feel I need it just a bit more emphasized and hear all its detail a bit more closely.


 
 That's the nature of the LCD2s. The bass and sub-bass are there when needed, but aren't going to thump you on every beat like bass-head headphones. I think EQ is tough to do without messing up the overall sound, but you should try it and see if it does the job for you.  What amp have you got now?


----------



## spyrko

I've got Apogee Duet 2 which I quite like so far but actually I think I need something more powerful, mainly to focus on the low end as I want to use LCD2's also for the technical reasons and I would prefer to buy a better amp that will be more powerful and can reveals more details in low end than just to use EQ. I found the sound character of LCD2's almost ideal for all my requirements, and just need to tune this low to make it perfect for me.


----------



## Barry S

I'm currently using a Mjolnir with my LCD2s and I think it's a great match. Very powerful--it brings a lot of resolution, detail, and dynamics to the LCD2 sound. However, it doesn't add anything beyond accuracy to the bass and sub-bass.  A good DAC might help you get where you want to go. I find low end DACS to be more congested--they can blur fine details in music. If you A-B with a better DAC, you hear how it better resolves and reproduces the music. Again, not more bass, but more detail across the spectrum.


----------



## Tony1110

Burson Conductor with Audiophilleo 2. Great DAC and amp on its own but AP2 takes everything up a notch or two.


----------



## kothganesh

You could try the Lyr with the LCD -2. It brings the tube warmth to the LCD -2 but I'm not sure whether you can "magnify" the lower end of these headphones. I use the Amarra player on my MacBook Air instead of iTunes. Amarra has an EQ setting called Audeze -LCD 2. I do get a boost when using that setting but I generally don't EQ.


----------



## DefQon

spyrko said:


> I've got Apogee Duet 2 which I quite like so far but actually I think I need something more powerful, mainly to focus on the low end as I want to use LCD2's also for the technical reasons and I would prefer to buy a better amp that will be more powerful and can reveals more details in low end than just to use EQ. I found the sound character of LCD2's almost ideal for all my requirements, and just need to tune this low to make it perfect for me.


 
  
 Get yourself a vintage/good modern day receiver or integrated amp with bass dials. You will have what you're looking for then.


----------



## Lappy27

tony1110 said:


> Burson Conductor with Audiophilleo 2. Great DAC and amp on its own but AP2 takes everything up a notch or two.


 
 True. I added an Audiophilleo2 with PurePower to my NAD M51 and it made a huge improvment in the sound. Especially in the bass region (quality and quantity).
  
 BTW, if you can find a Bryston BHA-1 used, you will be very, very happy with LCD-2.


----------



## longbowbbs

lappy27 said:


> tony1110 said:
> 
> 
> > Burson Conductor with Audiophilleo 2. Great DAC and amp on its own but AP2 takes everything up a notch or two.
> ...


 
  
 They are showing up on Audiogon for under $1100 USD now pretty regularly.


----------



## MacedonianHero

longbowbbs said:


> They are showing up on Audiogon for under $1100 USD now pretty regularly.


 
  
 Here too.


----------



## longbowbbs

I am just not a fan of Crystal DAC's....I love Bryston gear though.


----------



## ericfarrell85

The Dynahi is proving to be the best amp I've heard with the LCD's. CSP2+ and Taboo were also excellent (together), but do not provide the same degrees of clarity or heft the Dynahi bring. Still have the Balancing Act to try and need a balanced cable for the 4 ch Beta (3 ch. was very good, so have an affinity for the house sound), but darn if I could say there is anything missing from the Dynahi.


----------



## Jd007

ericfarrell85 said:


> The Dynahi is proving to be the best amp I've heard with the LCD's. CSP2+ and Taboo were also excellent (together), but do not provide the same degrees of clarity or heft the Dynahi bring. Still have the Balancing Act to try and need a balanced cable for the 4 ch Beta (3 ch. was very good, so have an affinity for the house sound), but darn if I could say there is anything missing from the Dynahi.


 
  
 better than the gs-x mk2?


----------



## jackwess

tony1110 said:


> Burson Conductor with Audiophilleo 2. Great DAC and amp on its own but AP2 takes everything up a notch or two.


 
  
 Definitely, it's a lovely combination indeed. Now users have the chance to switch Dac pcb, wicked cool!


----------



## ericfarrell85

jd007 said:


> better than the gs-x mk2?




Can't say. I don't own the GS-X...yet. It's one of the few still on my radar.


----------



## Viper2005

Try the Rega DAC. It's quite warmish and has 5 filter settings. I find setting 1 to be best for bass.


----------



## Chris_Himself

LCD-2 do not have bass impact, it's more of a bass tone in favor of not distracting you with one particular bit of the range. It's less fatiguing to listen to that way as well.


----------



## Tony1110

chris_himself said:


> LCD-2 do not have bass impact, it's more of a bass tone in favor of not distracting you with one particular bit of the range. It's less fatiguing to listen to that way as well.




They have plenty of bass impact when the music calls for it.


----------



## DarKen23

chris_himself said:


> LCD-2 do not have bass impact, it's more of a bass tone in favor of not distracting you with one particular bit of the range. It's less fatiguing to listen to that way as well.


That's the first time anyone had said the LCD2 does not have impact. I don't know what sort of amp you were using but I can assure you, they have plenty of impact.


----------



## Dubstep Girl

Lcd-2 had tons of impact more than any other headphone ive heard except he-5le (more punch less slam), and ultrasone pro 900


----------



## Chris_Himself

tony1110 said:


> They have plenty of bass impact when the music calls for it.


 
  
 The magnetic field doesn't move air the same way to give you the bass impact that a driver does IMO. It's what gives orthos their clarity since there isn't any distortion due to driver speed/rigidity but it lacks some impact at times.
  


darken23 said:


> That's the first time anyone had said the LCD2 does not have impact. I don't know what sort of amp you were using but I can assure you, they have plenty of impact.


 
  
 Schiit Mjolnir + Schiit Gungnir, and AudioGD NFB 10.32 balanced out. Both optical-in.

  
  


dubstep girl said:


> Lcd-2 had tons of impact more than any other headphone ive heard except he-5le (more punch less slam), and ultrasone pro 900


 
  
 Punch being mid-bass impact, and slam being the lower sub-bass impact right? HD800, HD600, K550, and HD700 are some recent ones I've tried that have it. It's not a BAD thing, it's just something I feel the LCD-2 doesn't have. In exchange you get a perfectly clear mid-range free of distortion at any volume and a very soothing tonality. Pro900 is a fart cannon, they rumble across my desk if I set them down.


----------



## DarKen23

I don't know, you musta had something wrong, there's no way you didn't get impact from LCD2. Especially with Mjolnir.


----------



## Chris_Himself

darken23 said:


> I don't know, you musta had something wrong, there's no way you didn't get impact from LCD2. Especially with Mjolnir.


 

 I've had the headphones since the Rev 2 came out, multiple times. It's just that other headphones do a couple things that 2's dont, and 2's do things that really no other headphone really can


----------



## DarKen23

chris_himself said:


> darken23 said:
> 
> 
> > I don't know, you musta had something wrong, there's no way you didn't get impact from LCD2. Especially with Mjolnir.
> ...



Yea but..Impact...? Which headphone did you feel more beats by dre?


----------



## Jesterphile

I agree with Chris, the LCD's definitely don't have amazing bass _impact_ but they do have oodles of body


----------



## DarKen23

Am I missing something. I dont understand, how do the LCD2 lack impact. Can you throw out a few other headphones that have better or strong impact so that I can compare?


----------



## Zashoomin

darken23 said:


> Am I missing something. I dont understand, how do the LCD2 lack impact. Can you throw out a few other headphones that have better or strong impact so that I can compare?


 
  
 Yes please.  I mean other than headphones with a more bloated base I can't think of any with a larger impact than the LCD2's.  Even the 3's are almost the same if not seemingly a little less.


----------



## DarKen23

zashoomin said:


> darken23 said:
> 
> 
> > Am I missing something. I dont understand, how do the LCD2 lack impact. Can you throw out a few other headphones that have better or strong impact so that I can compare?
> ...



I haven't heard the 3s so I can't comment on those. But from what I've heard and read, the 3s bass have better control, not as bloomy as the 2s. I'm sure the impact is definitely still there. I just find it hard to believe that people think that the LCD2 lack impact, that's just.. So odd..


----------



## Tony1110

I think the question here is more about the definition of bass impact as opposed to punch. The LCD-2 can make your skull rattle. That's how I always defined bass impact


----------



## Zashoomin

tony1110 said:


> I think the question here is more about the definition of bass impact as opposed to punch. The LCD-2 can make your skull rattle. That's how I always defined bass impact


 
  
 +1 Ya that base and the smoothness of the overall presentation is what drew me to the LCD's


----------



## ninjapirate9901

darken23 said:


> Am I missing something. I dont understand, how do the LCD2 lack impact. Can you throw out a few other headphones that have better or strong impact so that I can compare?


 
  The LCD-2 definitely doesn't lack bass impact imo, but there are certainly headphones out there that have more. From my collection, the DT 990, DN-19, and D5000 (the D5000 really makes everything else seem bass light, it's a freak) all have more of what I consider to be bass impact.


----------



## DarKen23

ninjapirate9901 said:


> darken23 said:
> 
> 
> > Am I missing something. I dont understand, how do the LCD2 lack impact. Can you throw out a few other headphones that have better or strong impact so that I can compare?
> ...



Yes, Im absolutely certain that there are more beastly impactful cans out there. It just didnt make any sense to me that someone would say that the LCD2 does not have ANY impact.


----------



## DarKen23

tony1110 said:


> I think the question here is more about the definition of bass impact as opposed to punch. The LCD-2 can make your skull rattle. That's how I always defined bass impact


+1


----------



## Dubstep Girl

tony1110 said:


> I think the question here is more about the definition of bass impact as opposed to punch. The LCD-2 can make your skull rattle. That's how I always defined bass impact


 
  
  
 +1
  
 when i turn the WA6-SE up to about 12 o clock with the LCD-2, the bass hits so hard it feels like its gonna rip your ear drums out. 
  
 i guess its kinda confusing to define impact and punch, but the LCD-2 definitely have alot of whatever u wanna call it.


----------



## DarKen23

dubstep girl said:


> tony1110 said:
> 
> 
> > I think the question here is more about the definition of bass impact as opposed to punch. The LCD-2 can make your skull rattle. That's how I always defined bass impact
> ...



+1

Whoever did not get a impactful bass response from the LCD2 should revisit the headphones. Thats where half the fun is.


----------



## thecourier

dubstep girl said:


> +1
> 
> when i turn the WA6-SE up to about 12 o clock with the LCD-2, the bass hits so hard it feels like its gonna rip your ear drums out.
> 
> i guess its kinda confusing to define impact and punch, but the LCD-2 definitely have alot of whatever u wanna call it.


 
  
 Dubstep, is your WA6-SE Maxxed out?


----------



## Dutchi MerenGue

jesterphile said:


> I agree with Chris, the LCD's definitely don't have amazing bass _impact_ but they do have oodles of body





I dont know what set up you have or what music you listen to or even if you bother with eq, but out of my pioneer sa-9500 headphone out, with the bass knob turned a couple notches right, my lcd-2's hit harder than my xb1000's with comparable sub bass but way better mid bass slam/punch/kick whatever.


Set up right, they can hit like closed cans without interrupting or bleeding into the mids


When I listen to burial - truant, wu tang clan - triumph, or phaelah - the cold in you, the bass vibrates my entire skull violently lol


----------



## Jesterphile

dutchi merengue said:


> I dont know what set up you have or what music you listen to or even if you bother with eq, but out of my pioneer sa-9500 headphone out, with the bass knob turned a couple notches right, my lcd-2's hit harder than my xb1000's with comparable sub bass but way better mid bass slam/punch/kick whatever.
> 
> 
> Set up right, they can hit like closed cans without interrupting or bleeding into the mids
> ...


 
  
 I was thinking more of instant impact of kick drums etc which I guess is more mid-bass.


----------



## spyrko

Could someone recommend me any amp with the bass knob, please? I think that's exactly what I'm looking for.


----------



## Jesterphile

Lots of vintage integrated stereo amps do. My Yamaha A-500 goes great with the LCD-2s


----------



## Dutchi MerenGue

Jesterphile is correct. A nice vintage integrated amp may be what you're looking for.

If bass is what you're after and youre on a budget, an o2 amp has enough juice to power a pair of lcd-2's with ease and then all you need is a good digital graphic eq or good bass dsp plugins for foobar or mediamonkey like the h82 harmonic maximizer set on bass drum settings


----------



## Girls Generation

darken23 said:


> Yea but..Impact...? *Which headphone did you feel more beats by dre?*


 
  
 Can you reword this so that we can have an idea of what kind of tone you're using when you say this?
  
  
 Also, LCD-2 has good impact, but in a relative sense, it doesn't. It definitely doesn't have the slam of HD800 bass, and it definitely doesn't have the rumble and impact of a JH16. I guess we can call this balanced, but I don't believe Audeze's have "so much impact it shakes my core." I guess this all depends on what you have heard and what your reference point is. Even with the DNA Stratus, I didn't think it had that much impact, definitely more, but still not THAT much as suggested in this thread.
  
 Maybe Dubstep Girl can give us a quick bass comparo between Audeze and TH900 on an ideal setup?


----------



## Chris_Himself

dutchi merengue said:


> I dont know what set up you have or what music you listen to or even if you bother with eq, but out of my pioneer sa-9500 headphone out, with the bass knob turned a couple notches right, my lcd-2's hit harder than my xb1000's with comparable sub bass but way better mid bass slam/punch/kick whatever.
> 
> 
> Set up right, they can hit like closed cans without interrupting or bleeding into the mids
> ...


 
  
 Yeah I'm not gonna EQ my setup and then talk about my setup compared to others as if we're listening to the same headphone even remotely. I also don't have bass knobs on my Schiit Mjolnirs but I'll talk to Jason about it.
  
*Dubstep, I know exactly what you're talking about and I completely agree, it has the bass tone so you get the rumble, but actual drum hits aren't emphasized is what I mean. *I trust that you and I are hearing the same thing.
  
 To me bass impact and punch are the exact same thing. Quantity of bass the LCD-2 has. The LCD-2 is perfectly capable of representing the lower tones perfectly, but it's how much attack is in the bass per drum kick for example.
  
 So I listen to a lot of percussion where the HD800's snappy bass is great, but sometimes I'll settle down after a drink with LCD-2's while listening to cello where the lush midrange that melts with the bass and treble comes in handy. It's not to say that somehow the LCD-2 is missing an entire range of sound, it's there, it just doesn't have the attack of other cans.
  
 Other cans I feel have bass impact but are not necessarily more quantity ie boomyness. Just because something has more bass impact than lcd-2 does not automatically class it in fart cannon territory, the LCD-2 isn't exactly a neutral benchmark itself, which is why it's so fun to listen to in the first place.
  
 HD800
 HD700
 HD600
 Grado RS-2i
 Beyerdynamic DT880
 Beyer T70 (have not heard T1)
  
 None of those are particularly bassy headphones right? But they do have bass impact. 
  
*Jesterphile and I both see eye to eye, we both clearly own the headphones to this day so nobody is saying the LCD-2's suck guys.*


----------



## spyrko

dutchi merengue said:


> Jesterphile is correct. A nice vintage integrated amp may be what you're looking for.
> 
> If bass is what you're after and youre on a budget, an o2 amp has enough juice to power a pair of lcd-2's with ease and then all you need is a good digital graphic eq or good bass dsp plugins for foobar or mediamonkey like the h82 harmonic maximizer set on bass drum settings


 
  
 Just tried the H82, and I only set the LO MIX to 1.0 and put the input gain a bit down and that's it, that is exactly what I was looking for!! Thanks a lot


----------



## Dubstep Girl

thecourier said:


> Dubstep, is your WA6-SE Maxxed out?


 
  
 nop


----------



## Dubstep Girl

chris_himself said:


> Yeah I'm not gonna EQ my setup and then talk about my setup compared to others as if we're listening to the same headphone even remotely. I also don't have bass knobs on my Schiit Mjolnirs but I'll talk to Jason about it.
> 
> 
> To me bass impact and punch are the exact same thing. Quantity of bass the LCD-2 has. The LCD-2 is perfectly capable of representing the lower tones perfectly, but it's how much attack is in the bass per drum kick for example.
> ...


 
  
 the LCD-2 has a kind of bass and other headphones like TH-900 have another kind of bass.  i also feel like the HD 800 have good  bass, but its different.


----------



## Dubstep Girl

girls generation said:


> Can you reword this so that we can have an idea of what kind of tone you're using when you say this?
> 
> 
> Also, LCD-2 has good impact, but in a relative sense, it doesn't. It definitely doesn't have the slam of HD800 bass, and it definitely doesn't have the rumble and impact of a JH16. I guess we can call this balanced, but I don't believe Audeze's have "so much impact it shakes my core." I guess this all depends on what you have heard and what your reference point is. Even with the DNA Stratus, I didn't think it had that much impact, definitely more, but still not THAT much as suggested in this thread.
> ...


 
  
  
 try listening at higher volumes, i think most people listen too quietly sometimes, and the audeze definitely needs volume for the bass to come out.
  
 but the LCD-2 i think has a type of impact thats kinda like HE-500 but still different. it definitely isn't always a rumble though or a boom, i don't know how you guys are trying to explain it, i seem confused since i always though it was impact that the LCD-2 have, but not the same type of bass as like a TH-900 would have, that kind of bass is mostly sub-bass and it has much more presence, like a subwoofer, it just fills your head with bass, the LCD-2 definitely doesn't have that. its more of just a midbass impact/punch, it definitely has more of it than the LCD-3. though the LCD-3 seems to have a little more sub-bass, but the LCD-3 seems lighter in the bass than LCD-2.


----------



## DefQon

Some of you's need to get your terminology up to date. Sub-bass != mid-bass. Chris_Himself is right, none of the LCD2's have a large amount of bass impact (if you want lots of impact look at the closed headphones in the Basshead thread). What the LCD's (2/both revisions and 3/both revisions) excel in is sub-bass, the low-end rumble.


----------



## DefQon

dubstep girl said:


> try listening at higher volumes, i think most people listen too quietly sometimes, and the audeze definitely needs volume for the bass to come out.


 
 The LCD2's need volume up a notch extra or too for treble and the mids to come out, you want to cancel that wall of dominating bass otherwise if you have volume on too low, or you get is a wall of bass, everything sucked out.


----------



## Viper2005

darken23 said:


> I don't know, you musta had something wrong, there's no way you didn't get impact from LCD2. Especially with Mjolnir.




I too also do not feel any bass impact from my 2011 rev2. The bass is there, but its not fast enough to give impact. Listening to Hotel California from the Eagles Hell Freezes Over, the kick drums at the start just sound like a moderately low bass rumble. Nothing like the impact I get from the same song on speakers. 
My lcd2 is on a V200 and Rega dac, so there should be no shortage of power there.


----------



## Tony1110

dubstep girl said:


> try listening at higher volumes, i think most people listen too quietly sometimes, and the audeze definitely needs volume for the bass to come out.
> 
> but the LCD-2 i think has a type of impact thats kinda like HE-500 but still different. it definitely isn't always a rumble though or a boom, i don't know how you guys are trying to explain it, i seem confused since i always though it was impact that the LCD-2 have, but not the same type of bass as like a TH-900 would have, that kind of bass is mostly sub-bass and it has much more presence, like a subwoofer, it just fills your head with bass, the LCD-2 definitely doesn't have that. its more of just a midbass impact/punch, it definitely has more of it than the LCD-3. though the LCD-3 seems to have a little more sub-bass, but the LCD-3 seems lighter in t




TH600 have a really fun bass. Nowhere near as accurate as LCD-2 but as you say it's completely different. I know what you mean when you say "fills your head with bass" as they do have that immersive quality to them. LCD-2 by comparison is tight, precise and impactful. 

LCD-2 mids piss all over TH600 but overall I'm enjoying the Fostex just as much. They're definitely not reference headphones but they have qualities that the LCD-2 can't match, like great treble and big soundstage (even though I never found LCD-2 to be particularly lacking in these areas, especially after adding AP2 to my setup).


----------



## Chris_Himself

defqon said:


> Some of you's need to get your terminology up to date. Sub-bass != mid-bass. Chris_Himself is right, none of the LCD2's have a large amount of bass impact (if you want lots of impact look at the closed headphones in the Basshead thread). What the LCD's (2/both revisions and 3/both revisions) excel in is sub-bass, the low-end rumble.


 
  
  


defqon said:


> The LCD2's need volume up a notch extra or too for treble and the mids to come out, you want to cancel that wall of dominating bass otherwise if you have volume on too low, or you get is a wall of bass, everything sucked out.


 
  
 My faith in the community hath been restored


----------



## DarKen23

chris_himself said:


> defqon said:
> 
> 
> > Some of you's need to get your terminology up to date. Sub-bass != mid-bass. Chris_Himself is right, none of the LCD2's have a large amount of bass impact (if you want lots of impact look at the closed headphones in the Basshead thread). What the LCD's (2/both revisions and 3/both revisions) excel in is sub-bass, the low-end rumble.
> ...


Pfff...


----------



## roskodan

defqon said:


> Some of you's need to get your terminology up to date. Sub-bass != mid-bass. Chris_Himself is right, none of the LCD2's have a large amount of bass impact (if you want lots of impact look at the closed headphones in the Basshead thread). What the LCD's (2/both revisions and 3/both revisions) excel in is sub-bass, the low-end rumble.


 
 bass impact would be slam, not quantity, so pressure is the key, closed cans have an advantage, but on my rig my lcd2 have enough slam to impress even the most hardcore bass heads ,what is not a surprise if you take in account the size of the driver and the amount of excursion, which likely makes it the can with most slam ever
  


defqon said:


> The LCD2's need volume up a notch extra or too for treble and the mids to come out, you want to cancel that wall of dominating bass otherwise if you have volume on too low, or you get is a wall of bass, everything sucked out.


 
 this is true, cancels the dominating bass quantity, but should rise slam on capable rigs as well, lcd2 need good rms with a lot of peak power reserve
  
 another thing is that the lcd2 is extremely linear unlike most closed cans, which are L or U shaped so the slam is more distributed and doesn't peak in a narrow lf region
  
 lcd2 needs a powerhouse


----------



## DefQon

roskodan said:


> bass impact would be slam, not quantity, so pressure is the key, closed cans have an advantage, but on my rig my lcd2 have enough slam to impress even the most hardcore bass heads ,what is not a surprise if you take in account the size of the driver and the amount of excursion, which likely makes it the can with most slam ever
> 
> this is true, cancels the dominating bass quantity, but should rise slam on capable rigs as well, lcd2 need good rms with a lot of peak power reserve
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yes indeed pressure is the key which is why most (but not all) closed headphones excel in because the soundwaves are reflected off the inner housing and back into the listener's ears, nonetheless the bass from the LCD's are still impressive considering they are open as hell and still can do sub-bass low end rumble very well, but as you described this is no surprise considering the size of the driver.
  
 But heck even when I just need bass sometimes with bass dial's on maxed out 5db's the bass isn't enough, this is being powered on taps by a Marantz PM-32 amp with upped mA on the 4 transistors for MOAR POWAH and SOUND TRANSIENTS. Best bass-impact headphone I have heard to date is my modded HD438's, volume cannot be upped too much otherwise distortion from the driver which you can literally see the coil and membrane pump up and down, they are for my other level of electronic music (hardcore, darkcore, industrial/experimental and dark dnb).
  
 I really do like my LCD's for metal though, sounds great with the djent and progressive stuff. Get's me drunk faster as well as I usually drink here and there when I listen to music. Gotta love Balkan made rakija, something you're very familiar with roskodan.


----------



## Chris_Himself

darken23 said:


> Pfff...


 
  
 It's not a contest, we're all buds here


----------



## roskodan

defqon said:


> I really do like my LCD's for metal though, sounds great with the djent and progressive stuff. Get's me drunk faster as well as I usually drink here and there when I listen to music. Gotta love Balkan made rakija, something you're very familiar with roskodan.


 
  
 for metal i could use a brighter amp than my v200 maybe, lcd2 kinda slows things down and treble energy isn't huge, but imo that's how the lcd2 are meant to sound, which is kinda of enjoyable in regard to the details that it can effortlessly transmit from even the most high gain screaming metal
  
 btw i'm more into local wines, eventually cognac, continental europe and irish beer, like to mix good votka with fresh fruit juice too... not a heavy drinker really


----------



## DefQon

roskodan said:


> btw i'm more into local wines, eventually cognac, continental europe and irish beer, like to mix good votka with fresh fruit juice too... not a heavy drinker really


 
 I'm really disappointed man..lol. Wines and vodka is good.


----------



## Chris_Himself

defqon said:


> I'm really disappointed man..lol. Wines and vodka is good.


----------



## Taliesin

Panam, Schiit lyr or Icon Audio HP8?


----------



## DarKen23

taliesin said:


> Panam, Schiit lyr or Icon Audio HP8?


None of the 3


----------



## Tony1110

taliesin said:


> Panam, Schiit lyr or Icon Audio HP8?




V200, Mjolnir or Soloist ... although I've had my eye on the Icon Audio HP8 for ages. Not sure I'd buy it exclusively for LCD-2 though.


----------



## DarKen23

tony1110 said:


> taliesin said:
> 
> 
> > Panam, Schiit lyr or Icon Audio HP8?
> ...


I couldn't agree more with the 3 recommended amps. I personally give the edge to the Mjolnir.


----------



## Girls Generation

chris_himself said:


>


----------



## DarKen23

Mmm beringer is great :]. Though my choice would be Patron Silver.


----------



## Dubstep Girl

oooh Remy Martin XO


----------



## Chris_Himself

girls generation said:


>


 
  
 Yeah mine is actually empty though so I win, sport.


----------



## Girls Generation

chris_himself said:


> Yeah mine is actually empty though so I win, sport.


 
  
 I sure hope mine don't empty.


----------



## DefQon

I still look at Remy Martin's as display or gift alchy.


----------



## DefQon

taliesin said:


> Panam, Schiit lyr or Icon Audio HP8?


 
 The Lyr is not too bad but avoid those amp's for the LCD's.
  


darken23 said:


> None of the 3


 
 +1
  


tony1110 said:


> V200, Mjolnir or Soloist ... although I've had my eye on the Icon Audio HP8 for ages. Not sure I'd buy it exclusively for LCD-2 though.


 
 +1. Definitely prefer the Mjolnir out of the 3. Soloist is not bad but some like it more so with the LCD's, I find them a bit bland sounding. V200 is a good all-rounder for lot's of headphones.


----------



## Chris_Himself

defqon said:


> I still look at Remy Martin's as display or gift alchy.


 
  
 I'm Vietnamese so it's only like bragging rights alcohol for when you have guests over. 
  
 Vodka is the staple drink, usually Chopin, Stoli, or Russian Standard for me.
  
 Second comes scotch, scotchy scotch scotch, but usually in a 12 year, I like full flavor. I also enjoy a good blanco tequila.
  
 Thats just liquor. I'm a HUGE beer nerd. I homebrew, trade, and go to tastings all the time.


----------



## ninjapirate9901

Why is the Lyr not recommended for the LCD-2's? I was under the impression they were decent for most planars.


----------



## MacedonianHero

ninjapirate9901 said:


> Why is the Lyr not recommended for the LCD-2's? I was under the impression they were decent for most planars.


 
  
 I recommend it for the LCD-2s. But definitely not the LCD-3s.


----------



## Barry S

ninjapirate9901 said:


> Why is the Lyr not recommended for the LCD-2's? I was under the impression they were decent for most planars.




I don't think the Lyr is bad with the LCD2s, but it's not a great pairing. The LCD2 has a lush dark signature that gets a bit muddied by the Lyr's tube harmonics. The LCD2 is best with a very clean neutral to forward amp. The LCD2 is very capable of reproducing the natural timbre and harmonics of recorded music and the Lyr's added harmonics may degrade that fidelity somewhat--lessening detail and collapsing the soundstage. If you A/B the LCD2 between the Lyr and the Mjolnir or GS-X mkII, it's a clear difference.


----------



## Archerious

barry s said:


> I don't think the Lyr is bad with the LCD2s, but it's not a great pairing. The LCD2 has a lush dark signature that gets a bit muddied by the Lyr's tube harmonics. The LCD2 is best with a very clean neutral to forward amp. The LCD2 is very capable of reproducing the natural timbre and harmonics of recorded music and the Lyr's added harmonics may degrade that fidelity somewhat--lessening detail and collapsing the soundstage. If you A/B the LCD2 between the Lyr and the Mjolnir or GS-X mkII, it's a clear difference.


 
  
 I agree completely, Kingwa recommended NFB-10ES2 (I was comparing 10.33, 10ES2 etc), due to the speed, microdetails, and he said it was a great choice for LCD-2, since its neutral.


----------



## DefQon

chris_himself said:


> I'm Vietnamese so it's only like bragging rights alcohol for when you have guests over.


 
 Yeah same for my family I guess as well. 
  
 I like beer


----------



## levinhatz

Can anyone comment on which one is the better pairing for the LCD-2 between Woo WA6-SE and Little Dot MKVI+? Does it depend on the tube, or is there a clear winner? Is there another tube amp under $1.5K that is recommended?


----------



## DarKen23

levinhatz said:


> Can anyone comment on which one is the better pairing for the LCD-2 between Woo WA6-SE and Little Dot MKVI+? Does it depend on the tube, or is there a clear winner? Is there another tube amp under $1.5K that is recommended?


Ive never liked tube amps for the LCD2


----------



## Archerious

levinhatz said:


> Can anyone comment on which one is the better pairing for the LCD-2 between Woo WA6-SE and Little Dot MKVI+? Does it depend on the tube, or is there a clear winner? Is there another tube amp under $1.5K that is recommended?


 
  
 Bottlehead SEX outputs 2 watts per channel, on paper that is good. Trust your ears though. Tube amps normally don't mix well with LCD-2, but hey you might like the sound. WA6SE outputs a lot of power as well. Look into Bottlehead Mainline as well. Violectric V200 is good as well, very warm if that's your preference. I personally have grown to like a neutral amp with my LCD-2 rev 1.


----------



## levinhatz

vampire5003 said:


> Bottlehead SEX outputs 2 watts per channel, on paper that is good.


 
  
 LDMKVI+ outputs 5 watts per channel, on paper that is better.
   
 Quote:


> Trust your ears though. Tube amps normally don't mix well with LCD-2, but hey you might like the sound.


 
  
 I do! Seems like every amp that I've tried with the LCD-2 that has made me say "wow" has been a tube or hybrid amp. Maybe I'm just addicted to that sound.
  


> Look into Bottlehead Mainline as well. Violectric V200 is good as well, very warm if that's your preference. I personally have grown to like a neutral amp with my LCD-2 rev 1.


 
  
 Hadn't thought of the Bottlehead Mainline. Intriguing.


----------



## Archerious

levinhatz said:


> LDMKVI+ outputs 5 watts per channel, on paper that is better.
> 
> I do! Seems like every amp that I've tried with the LCD-2 that has made me say "wow" has been a tube or hybrid amp. Maybe I'm just addicted to that sound.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Glad you are interested, Bottlehead designs great amplifiers. Woo Audio is popular on here as well. Pick what you think sounds best.
 After all at the end of the day it's your wallet taking the hit not mine  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Cheers,
  
 Thomas
  
 PS: Bottlehead is DIY....just letting you know. If you aren't a DIY guy, then get a builder to do it.


----------



## levinhatz

vampire5003 said:


> Pick what you think sounds best.
> After all at the end of the day it's your wallet taking the hit not mine


 
  
 Yeah, I know, I know, and truthfully I've heard both the WA6-SE and the LDMKVI+ on seperate occasions and liked both. Just never had a chance to compare them. Hoping that someone here has. Ultimately I've gotta be the judge for myself tho 
  
 Trying to nurse my wallet back to health, but I do love to beat and punish it.


----------



## DefQon

levinhatz said:


> LDMKVI+ outputs 5 watts per channel, on paper that is better.
> 
> I do! Seems like every amp that I've tried with the LCD-2 that has made me say "wow" has been a tube or hybrid amp. Maybe I'm just addicted to that sound.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I'm going to be unbiased and un-LD fanboy as possible. I haven't heard the Mainline or build a SEX but have heard it, the LD VI+ is one of those tube amp's just does everything right, yeah there are a few issues that I'd nitpick out of it mainly concerned with the cooling and enclosure size, it really punches above it's weight. It is a chameleon of an amp, whatever tubes you roll is what sound you're going to get.


----------



## Dubstep Girl

levinhatz said:


> Can anyone comment on which one is the better pairing for the LCD-2 between Woo WA6-SE and Little Dot MKVI+? Does it depend on the tube, or is there a clear winner? Is there another tube amp under $1.5K that is recommended?


 
  
 the LCD-2 worked very very well with the WA6-SE, especially with 6GL7/6FD7 and 596 tubes.
  
 the LCD-3 as well, but seem to be able to scale higher, the LCD-2 paired better with WA6-SE imo.


----------



## DefQon

I preferred the VI+ before I was this skeptical of what I was paying for sound per buck with the WA6 and the WA22.


----------



## Dubstep Girl

WA22 is the next tube amp i wanna get, might be my endgame


----------



## DefQon

WA22 is far from end game. Since you're a strong Woo follower, I'd get the WA5.


----------



## Zashoomin

The biggest problem I have with tube amps is the tube rolling.  Usually in order to get the sound you want you need to roll the tubes and a lot of the time you will end up paying the same if not more for the tubes than the amp is worth.  To me it just seems contradictory because you can just get a better amp right?  I don't know it was just kind of an idea that I have been having.  Yes I  know I have a tube amp but I do not spend obcene amounts of money on rolling it and also it only has 2 tubes vs say like 8.  Where you would need matched quads.  Also just a final thought but to the people that spend thousands of dollars on tubes...what happens when they burn out.  Do you spend thousands yet again trying to find those tubes?
  
 I don't know with solid state the sound is chosen for you which is a down side but if it sounds good why change it?
  
 again this is just an idea that I want to throw out there not trying to say tubes are bad...I own a tube amp.  Also not trying to offend anyone.


----------



## Dubstep Girl

defqon said:


> WA22 is far from end game. Since you're a strong Woo follower, I'd get the WA5.


 
  
  
 maybe though i'm kinda turned away from it since the 300B are very expensive tubes, and i would have to get doubles of all my rectifiers, whereas with the WA22 i can use my 596 rectifiers as well as my other 5U4G/274B/5AR4s and i can use 6AS7G/5998 power tubes.
  
 only thing i would prefer is if the WA22 also had the 6922 tubes, then it'd be the perfect amp 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
  
 im excited to hear how my GSX compares to my woos as well, since i'm already pretty happy with their performance. especially the WA2, which could very well be my endgame if i only had the beyerdynamic T1.


----------



## Taliesin

If you had a 3pin XLR to spades cable made, do you think you could power desktop speakers out of the Mjolnir?


----------



## vkalia

Subscribing to this thread. 
  
 I've just ordered a AudioGD amp for my LCD2s, and am also looking for a single-ended amp to go with the LCD2 (fully aware of their warm nature).
  
 The WA6 or 6SEs are two options i am looking it.    Anything else in that price range?  I dont want OTL - looking for SET, transformer-coupled amp with that glorious tubey sound.   
  
 Thanks!


----------



## thegrobe

vkalia said:


> Subscribing to this thread.
> 
> I've just ordered a AudioGD amp for my LCD2s, and am also looking for a single-ended amp to go with the LCD2 (fully aware of their warm nature).
> 
> ...




Which audio-gd amp did you order? I'm curious to hear impressions of the new precision 1.


----------



## vkalia

The SA-31SE.   It shipped out today, so should arrive by end of next week - but sadly, i am out of town for 2 weeks, so will only be able to try it out when back.


----------



## thegrobe

vkalia said:


> The SA-31SE.   It shipped out today, so should arrive by end of next week - but sadly, i am out of town for 2 weeks, so will only be able to try it out when back.


 
  
 Ah, the SA-31 is a good amp. I enjoyed it with the LCD-2's. Mine is up for sale but I keep waffling, pulling the ad, re-posting it. LOL. Kind of don't want to see it go. I used it on low gain and it was great with the LCD-2. Plenty of juice and a nice soundstage and smooth presentation. I liked either no jumpers or "setting 1" for the warmth with the LCD-2. 
  
 I also have the Decware Taboo mk3, which falls into your tube amp requirements. I LOVE it....I haven't actually heard the LCD-2 from it, only the LCD-3 but I can't imagine it being a bad pairing, it was designed with the LCD in mind. It is very transparent and has very nice treble extension that works well with the LCD. Also very responsive to tube rolling to fine tune the signature. IMO, for the LCD It is a step up from the SA-31 but better be for the much greater price. Check into that amp maybe?
  
 You mentioned you wanted to "also" get a single ended amp? You know the SA-31 is single ended, right? The XLR jack is just for flexibility of plugging balanced cables in. Both XLR and 1/4 jacks output the identical signal.


----------



## Archerious

thegrobe said:


> Ah, the SA-31 is a good amp. I enjoyed it with the LCD-2's. Mine is up for sale but I keep waffling, pulling the ad, re-posting it. LOL. Kind of don't want to see it go. I used it on low gain and it was great with the LCD-2. Plenty of juice and a nice soundstage and smooth presentation. I liked either no jumpers or "setting 1" for the warmth with the LCD-2.
> 
> I also have the Decware Taboo mk3, which falls into your tube amp requirements. I LOVE it....I haven't actually heard the LCD-2 from it, only the LCD-3 but I can't imagine it being a bad pairing, it was designed with the LCD in mind. It is very transparent and has very nice treble extension that works well with the LCD. Also very responsive to tube rolling to fine tune the signature. IMO, for the LCD It is a step up from the SA-31 but better be for the much greater price. Check into that amp maybe?
> 
> You mentioned you wanted to "also" get a single ended amp? You know the SA-31 is single ended, right? The XLR jack is just for flexibility of plugging balanced cables in. Both XLR and 1/4 jacks output the identical signal.


 
  
 On the SA-31SE are the outputs watts the same? I know on 10ES2 its like 4x the output if your run balanced. IMO its better as 1.6 watts in 50ohm is below Audeze's recommended output. While 5.9watts in 50ohm on 10ES2 in balanced mode in within Audeze's recommended specs.


----------



## Archerious

vkalia said:


> The SA-31SE.   It shipped out today, so should arrive by end of next week - but sadly, i am out of town for 2 weeks, so will only be able to try it out when back.


 
  
 That is a good choice if you like a warm sound. Which I believe you do


----------



## Dubstep Girl

vkalia said:


> Subscribing to this thread.
> 
> I've just ordered a AudioGD amp for my LCD2s, and am also looking for a single-ended amp to go with the LCD2 (fully aware of their warm nature).
> 
> ...


 
  
 i do not recommend the regular version of the WA6, barely enough power/dynamics for HD 800, LCD-2 will be even worse.
  
  the WA6-SE for sure (with 6FD7 tubes).the sophia 274b should be enough tubey for LCD-2 if thats the sound you're looking for. the 6FD7 is probably the best and most balanced sounding tube for the WA6-SE. (the 6GL7 has more power, but is also darker and slightly V shaped in response, thats why i don't recommend it unless you pair with 596 rectifier, and even then, i think im gonna recommend 6FD7 from now on, also its cheaper to get).
  
  
 if you want SS, definitely the soloist


----------



## thegrobe

vampire5003 said:


> On the SA-31SE are the outputs watts the same? I know on 10ES2 its like 4x the output if your run balanced. IMO its better as 1.6 watts in 50ohm is below Audeze's recommended output. While 5.9watts in 50ohm on 10ES2 in balanced mode in within Audeze's recommended specs.




Both outputs are the same. The amp is single ended. Just a 4 pin xlr out for convenience.


----------



## Chris_Himself

vkalia said:


> Subscribing to this thread.
> 
> I've just ordered a AudioGD amp for my LCD2s, and am also looking for a single-ended amp to go with the LCD2 (fully aware of their warm nature).
> 
> ...


 
  
 I have the NFB11, 15.32, and 10.32. I think at $500 the 10.32 is one of the best deals in audio today.


----------



## Archerious

chris_himself said:


> I have the NFB11, 15.32, and 10.32. I think at $500 the 10.32 is one of the best deals in audio today.


 
  
 10.32 is now the reference 10.32 at like $1000+. I think your referring to the now named 10.33.


----------



## Archerious

thegrobe said:


> Both outputs are the same. The amp is single ended. Just a 4 pin xlr out for convenience.


 
  
 Oh I see, that is one powerful SE amp. My god! I'm impressed...(currently checking wallet lol). If only SA31 was balanced


----------



## fatcat28037

dubstep girl said:


> WA22 is the next tube amp i wanna get, might be my endgame


 
  
 Its proved to be my endgame.


----------



## vkalia

thegrobe said:


> I also have the Decware Taboo mk3, which falls into your tube amp requirements. I LOVE it....I haven't actually heard the LCD-2 from it, only the LCD-3 but I can't imagine it being a bad pairing, it was designed with the LCD in mind. It is very transparent and has very nice treble extension that works well with the LCD. Also very responsive to tube rolling to fine tune the signature. IMO, for the LCD It is a step up from the SA-31 but better be for the much greater price. Check into that amp maybe?
> You mentioned you wanted to "also" get a single ended amp? You know the SA-31 is single ended, right? The XLR jack is just for flexibility of plugging balanced cables in. Both XLR and 1/4 jacks output the identical signal.


 
  
 Thanks thegrobe - will check out the Decware.   Although, my budget caps out at around the WA6-SE (which is already pushing the limits a little, TBH).     I am not really one to sit around and obsess over sound instead of the music (I'd rather listen to Furtwangler in a 50's mono recording than that boring Reference Recordings tripe), so I think $1000 or so puts me in the right zone.   Especially $1000 for a Chinese-made amp.
  
 Also, by single-ended, I am referring to the circuitry - single-stage, zero-feedback - not the connectors.
  


vampire5003 said:


> That is a good choice if you like a warm sound. Which I believe you do


 
  
 Hehe, heya V-man.  
  


dubstep girl said:


> the WA6-SE for sure (with 6FD7 tubes).the sophia 274b should be enough tubey for LCD-2 if thats the sound you're looking for. the 6FD7 is probably the best and most balanced sounding tube for the WA6-SE. (the 6GL7 has more power, but is also darker and slightly V shaped in response, thats why i don't recommend it unless you pair with 596 rectifier, and even then, i think im gonna recommend 6FD7 from now on, also its cheaper to get).


 
  
 I have to admit, I have read a couple of off-the-cuff remarks about Woo Audio being more about looks and style than great circuits.    Now, a single-ended triode amp is a fairly simple design (my DIY amp from the 90s cost me <$500 in parts and provided pretty much end-game audio quality for me), so I am not sure if this is really something to worry about or not.
  
 Btw, side note - anyone know where to get an inexpensive balanced cable for the LCD-2 (thick gauge wire, robust construction is all I care about - I dont buy the "cables affect sound" argument)?


----------



## Chris_Himself

vampire5003 said:


> 10.32 is now the reference 10.32 at like $1000+. I think your referring to the now named 10.33.


 
  
 I don't think the upgrade to 32-bit DAC was really all that necessary in the 15-series but I'll take it if they're serving it lol. Damn AGD upgrades their stuff almost monthly..


----------



## Archerious

chris_himself said:


> I don't think the upgrade to 32-bit DAC was really all that necessary in the 15-series but I'll take it if they're serving it lol. Damn AGD upgrades their stuff almost monthly..


 
  
 I barely have anything in 24/96, most in 16/44, so I agree with you. What kind of music is even encoded at 32bit 384k?


----------



## Archerious

vkalia said:


> Thanks thegrobe - will check out the Decware.   Although, my budget caps out at around the WA6-SE (which is already pushing the limits a little, TBH).     I am not really one to sit around and obsess over sound instead of the music (I'd rather listen to Furtwangler in a 50's mono recording than that boring Reference Recordings tripe), so I think $1000 or so puts me in the right zone.   Especially $1000 for a Chinese-made amp.
> 
> Also, by single-ended, I am referring to the circuitry - single-stage, zero-feedback - not the connectors.
> 
> ...


 
 I really like Charleston Cable Company's LCD-2 cables, but they are not the cheapest. If you want like $100 or less, then look for a cable built by a DIY'er with larger gauge wire like maybe Canare or Mogami wire?  If you budget is $150+ then go for the Charleston Cable Company's cable. The stock Audeze balanced cable is a joke.


----------



## thegrobe

vkalia said:


> Also, by single-ended, I am referring to the circuitry - single-stage, zero-feedback - not the connectors.




Lol, right, of course. I've just seen several folks confusing the SA-31 as balanced, probably due to the xlr jack in front and the abundance of balanced audio-gd gear available. Was the first thing popped into my head.


----------



## maskofkpax

Hey guys,
 I'm going to buy a set up at home for my LCD2 and narrow down to Audio GD NFB 10.33 or NFB 28. A volume pot is a must and i will not choose 10ES2.
 Anyone here has experience with those Dac/Amp? Can you tell me ES or Wolfson is better with LCD2? I also have AKG K701.
 Thank you much!


----------



## DefQon

vampire5003 said:


> What kind of music is even encoded at 32bit 384k?


 
 None I believe.


----------



## Tony1110

defqon said:


> None I believe.




I'm yet to find any.


----------



## Archerious

maskofkpax said:


> Hey guys,
> I'm going to buy a set up at home for my LCD2 and narrow down to Audio GD NFB 10.33 or NFB 28. A volume pot is a must and i will not choose 10ES2.
> Anyone here has experience with those Dac/Amp? Can you tell me ES or Wolfson is better with LCD2? I also have AKG K701.
> Thank you much!




Do you want a neutral or warm sound? That's the differences. Both amps are balanced.


----------



## wizia

vampire5003 said:


> Do you want a neutral or warm sound? That's the differences. Both amps are balanced.


 
  
 Just to clarify, NFB 10.33 is warm (WM8741) and NFB 28 is neutral (ES9018)
  
 Is that correct?


----------



## Archerious

wizia said:


> Just to clarify, NFB 10.33 is warm (WM8741) and NFB 28 is neutral (ES9018)
> 
> Is that correct?




Your correct :wink_face:


----------



## Raptor34

vampire5003 said:


> The stock Audeze balanced cable is a joke.


 
 Please tell me why you think it is a joke?   Mine seems to be working well.


----------



## Archerious

raptor34 said:


> Please tell me why you think it is a joke?   Mine seems to be working well.


 
  
 It's made cheap. I was gifted a stock balanced cable, and it tore within only a few months. It is not worth $90 IMO (Audeze stock price). I almost bought another Audeze balanced on the FS forum for $45, but I ended up with a Charleston Cable Company LCD-2 4 pin balanced cable. It is really nice.


----------



## DarKen23

vampire5003 said:


> raptor34 said:
> 
> 
> > Please tell me why you think it is a joke?   Mine seems to be working well.
> ...


That makes no sense. How and why would you consider it cheap? If you do not have a viable reason behind your statement, it's nothing but an artifact.

And why would you "almost" buy it again if you thought it was of that quality.


----------



## Archerious

darken23 said:


> That makes no sense. How and why would you consider it cheap? If you do not have a viable reason behind your statement, it's nothing but an artifact.
> 
> And why would you "almost" buy it again if you thought it was of that quality.




Because its cheap. Not everyone wants to spend $100-$200 on a cable.


----------



## Raptor34

vampire5003 said:


> It's made cheap. I was gifted a stock balanced cable, and it tore within only a few months. It is not worth $90 IMO (Audeze stock price). I almost bought another Audeze balanced on the FS forum for $45, but I ended up with a Charleston Cable Company LCD-2 4 pin balanced cable. It is really nice.


 
 I thought you meant that the stock cable somehow degraded performance.


----------



## DarKen23

vampire5003 said:


> darken23 said:
> 
> 
> > That makes no sense. How and why would you consider it cheap? If you do not have a viable reason behind your statement, it's nothing but an artifact.
> ...



So basically you'd spend another 45.00 and then have it go bad on you yet again which would force you to get ANOTHER cable? Seems to me like you'd be spending much more than intended.


----------



## Zashoomin

Alright I guess I'll just give my two cents.  The Audeze cable is probably not worth $80 but I don't think it was made so that they could make a huge profit but just so that when you got headphones you would have a cable that could connect to that fancy amp that you have.  It is free and comes with the headphones so who cares.  As for the ones they sell on their website I personally don't think its worth it but again I think they have it because it is convient to some people.  They are a headphone company not a cable company. If you want to spend $80 I suggest you go somewhere else but if you have the stock cable and are happy with it what is the problem.  
  
 The point I am getting at is the cable doesn't really matter.  It is just something that comes with headphones.  I would be willing to sell my stock cable to make a couple extra bucks since I have a nicer one.


----------



## Taliesin

Has anyone here tried the TEAC HA-501


----------



## DarKen23

zashoomin said:


> Alright I guess I'll just give my two cents.  The Audeze cable is probably not worth $80 but I don't think it was made so that they could make a huge profit but just so that when you got headphones you would have a cable that could connect to that fancy amp that you have.  It is free and comes with the headphones so who cares.  As for the ones they sell on their website I personally don't think its worth it but again I think they have it because it is convient to some people.  They are a headphone company not a cable company. If you want to spend $80 I suggest you go somewhere else but if you have the stock cable and are happy with it what is the problem.
> 
> The point I am getting at is the cable doesn't really matter.  It is just something that comes with headphones.  I would be willing to sell my stock cable to make a couple extra bucks since I have a nicer one.


Imho, cables make a difference when gear scales higher.


----------



## Zashoomin

darken23 said:


> Imho, cables make a difference when gear scales higher.


 
  
 I mean depends on who you are asking so I am not going to touch this one with a ten foot poll but if you believe in cables, maybe.  If you don't than no it doesn't make any difference.


----------



## DarKen23

zashoomin said:


> darken23 said:
> 
> 
> > Imho, cables make a difference when gear scales higher.
> ...


Whoa, I was not asking anyone anything.. I was only stating my opinion.. If I wanted to ask or was at the time referring to you as an example, I would have said "cables make a difference when YOUR gear scales higher"


----------



## Archerious

darken23 said:


> So basically you'd spend another 45.00 and then have it go bad on you yet again which would force you to get ANOTHER cable? Seems to me like you'd be spending much more than intended.




If you re-read my posts, you'll see I was contemplating buying another stock Audeze balanced cable, but due to the bad experience I ended up getting a Charleston Cable.


----------



## DarKen23

vampire5003 said:


> darken23 said:
> 
> 
> > So basically you'd spend another 45.00 and then have it go bad on you yet again which would force you to get ANOTHER cable? Seems to me like you'd be spending much more than intended.
> ...


I've read your post as well as the one stating that the Audeze cables are a JOKE.


----------



## Raptor34

vampire5003 said:


> If you re-read my posts, you'll see I was contemplating buying another stock Audeze balanced cable, but due to the bad experience I ended up getting a Charleston Cable.


 
 What bad experience.   You got the cable for free!


----------



## Dubstep Girl

its a free cable, i dont think its anything amazing because audeze knows that most people will typically want to upgrade their cable eventually, thats why its detachable and of only average quality.
  
 also detachable is important to know.
  
 if the cable was the same quality but hardwired, you wouldn't be happy now would ya?


----------



## Archerious

dubstep girl said:


> its a free cable, i dont think its anything amazing because audeze knows that most people will typically want to upgrade their cable eventually, thats why its detachable and of only average quality.
> 
> also detachable is important to know.
> 
> if the cable was the same quality but hardwired, you wouldn't be happy now would ya?




Audeze didn't give me a balanced LCD-2 cable for free. Lol.


----------



## Dubstep Girl

comes with LCD-3 i think.


----------



## MacedonianHero

dubstep girl said:


> comes with LCD-3 i think.


 
  
 They used to.


----------



## Archerious

dubstep girl said:


> comes with LCD-3 i think.


 
  
 I have LCD-2


----------



## Chris_Himself

defqon said:


> None I believe.


 
  
 I guess if you theorhetically ripped a vinyl to FLAC at that bitrate it'd work, but that would require so much work you might as well just get a phono stage and run your cans from your headphone amp as-is lol.
  


wizia said:


> Just to clarify, NFB 10.33 is warm (WM8741) and NFB 28 is neutral (ES9018)
> 
> Is that correct?


 
  
 Some people do not like the way the ES9018 sounds. It comes off as "digital" and I've heard it being described as "glassy". The thing is, there is so much that could go right or wrong from the PSU to your output jacks on a DAC that I don't know if a DAC chip specifically sets the tone by itself. That being said yes I've had the Sparrow and FUN back in the day and I can agree with 8741 being warm.


----------



## Raptor34

dubstep girl said:


> comes with LCD-3 i think.


 
 The LCD 3 gets both cables.  See below.   That's why I had to buy the 4 pin XLR cable when I bought my  Mjolnir .   The cable is not a "joke" or "cheap".  It's what's provided with the lcd's and it's good enough until I decided to upgrade to something that looks like a boat anchor chain and adds even more unsprung weight to the HP's.  Yikes, they weight enough already and thats probably why Audeze used the slim wire design.   Anyway, lets get back to the original purpose of this thread shall we, please. 

ADZ6SE Cable (single-ended 1/4"): 1/4” TRS to 2x4-pin mini XLR
ADZ6B4 Cable (balanced 4-pin):  4-pin XLR to 2x4-pin mini XLR
1/4" to 1/8" adapter


----------



## Taliesin

Has anyone here tried the TEAC HA-501


----------



## Tony1110

There is very little mention of it on Head-Fi.


----------



## Raptor34

taliesin said:


> Has anyone here tried the TEAC HA-501


 
 There is this:   http://www.head-fi.org/t/646075/teac-ha-501-headphone-amp.


----------



## Taliesin

I have but there aren't any good impressions of the amp with the LCD2 on there so don't be a patronising **** Raptor


----------



## Raptor34

taliesin said:


> I have but there aren't any good impressions of the amp with the LCD2 on there so don't be a patronising **** Raptor


 
 Huh?  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





    I see you haven't found the spell checker either.


----------



## DarKen23

chris_himself said:


> defqon said:
> 
> 
> > None I believe.
> ...


That really depends on how its built around the ES9018. My experience with sabre chips are nowhere near "digital" sounding.


----------



## Taliesin

I see you have removed the patronising part of your comment,and what do you by I have found the spell checker? Everything wad spelt correctly as far as I can tell, or are you referring to the automated ****?


----------



## DarKen23

taliesin said:


> I see you have removed the patronising part of your comment,and what do you by I have found the spell checker? Everything wad spelt correctly as far as I can tell, or are you referring to the automated ****?


:blink:


----------



## DefQon

I find Sabre chips overrated. At the end of the day it's all about how the IC is implemented in the circuit.


----------



## Chris_Himself

defqon said:


> I find Sabre chips overrated. At the end of the day it's all about how the IC is implemented in the circuit.


 
  
 24 bit was/is overrated, 32 is just playing a numbers war. Shame you can't really upgrade analog components these days at a fixed cost structure. Thats where the flagship products come in.


----------



## nigeljames

darken23 said:


> That really depends on how its built around the ES9018. *My experience with sabre chips are nowhere near "digital" sounding*.


 
  
 +1
 Personally I find the PCM1704 chips vastly overrated in the DAC's I have heard.
  
 But I agree it's the implementation that counts, more so than the actual chip.


----------



## longbowbbs

chris_himself said:


> defqon said:
> 
> 
> > I find Sabre chips overrated. At the end of the day it's all about how the IC is implemented in the circuit.
> ...


 
  
 Numbers game? My receiver with the .000000000000000000001% THD sounds awesome!


----------



## RedBull

THD is one of the most useless parameters to get a feeling of sound, almost except thd 10% vs thd 0.1% might be very obvious.

Those tube amps with thd 0.2% sound awesome!!

.ps, I know you are joking, btw.


----------



## longbowbbs

redbull said:


> THD is one of the most useless parameters to get a feeling of sound, almost except thd 10% vs thd 0.1% might be very obvious.
> 
> Those tube amps with thd 0.2% sound awesome!!
> 
> .ps, I know you are joking, btw.


 
  
 Seems like there is always another spec for marketing to get fired up about....


----------



## Raptor34

taliesin said:


> I see you have removed the patronising part of your comment,and what do you by I have found the spell checker? Everything wad spelt correctly as far as I can tell, or are you referring to the automated ****?


 
 You say "patronising"  the dictionary say's  patronizing  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  
 zzzzzzzzzzzzz


----------



## Taliesin

Its spelled patronising in English english, but patronizing in American English so since I live in the UK I spelt it right.


----------



## Raptor34

taliesin said:


> Its spelled patronising in English english, but patronizing in American English so since I live in the UK I spelt it right.


 
 Can we just forget this and move on?


----------



## Tony1110

Handbags


----------



## Chris_Himself

tony1110 said:


> Handbags


 
  
 Correct.


----------



## Raptor34

tony1110 said:


> Handbags


----------



## levinhatz

Two goodies coming in the mail: A Little Dot MK VI+ and a Q cable for my LCD-2s. I'll post impressions in a few days!


----------



## pdrm360

How is the Bifrost/Lyr combo for the LCD-2?  Is the Asgard 2 a better amp for LCD-2?


----------



## kothganesh

pdrm360 said:


> How is the Bifrost/Lyr combo for the LCD-2?  Is the Asgard 2 a better amp for LCD-2?


 
  
 IMHO, Asgard is good...Lyr is better with the right tubes.


----------



## DarKen23

pdrm360 said:


> How is the Bifrost/Lyr combo for the LCD-2?  Is the Asgard 2 a better amp for LCD-2?


Nay for both. As for the lyr, I don't like tubes with the LCD


----------



## MattiaFalsetti

Arcam Solo Neo


----------



## Wil

Just curious, has anyone tried the TEAC HA-501 with the LCD-2.2s? 
  
 The damping factor control looks like it would be useful.


----------



## Pepper

Hey, would anyone be able to recommend what type of amplifier I should get if I am looking to spend max $500 (preferably lower). I am willing to buy the amplifier from someone on Head-Fi, and so we are looking at* after market prices. *Are there any kind of semi-consensus views on solid amps at this price point? 
  
 I was initially interested in the Lyr, and I know it's a solid choice, but I see comments every so often from people who insist that the Lyr gets its butt kicked by a good number of other amps with the LCD-2 Rev 2s.
  
 I should add that I'm currently just using the Schiit Modi DAC. I am unable to invest in a better DAC until I get my amplifier in order!
  
 Thanks a lot!


----------



## Zashoomin

pepper said:


> Hey, would anyone be able to recommend what type of amplifier I should get if I am looking to spend max $500 (preferably lower). I am willing to buy the amplifier from someone on Head-Fi, and so we are looking at* after market prices. *Are there any kind of semi-consensus views on solid amps at this price point?
> 
> I was initially interested in the Lyr, and I know it's a solid choice, but I see comments every so often from people who insist that the Lyr gets its butt kicked by a good number of other amps with the LCD-2 Rev 2s.
> 
> ...


 
  
 for under 500 it doesn't get much better than the lyr.  I know some people might disagree but with the extra money put into tubes I think you could get a nice little set up going for your LCD2's


----------



## pdrm360

zashoomin said:


> for under 500 it doesn't get much better than the lyr.  I know some people might disagree but with the extra money put into tubes I think you could get a nice little set up going for your LCD2's


 
  
 +1  
  
 Schiit Lyr w/Amperex Orange Globe tubes


----------



## pdrm360

pdrm360 said:


> Schiit Lyr w/Amperex Orange Globe tubes


 
  
 Though some people believes the Asgard 2 is a better amp for the LCD-2.


----------



## DefQon

For under $500 I'd rather get a good vintage grade integrated amp with optional headphone out than the Lyr.


----------



## Pepper

pdrm360 said:


> Though some people believes the Asgard 2 is a better amp for the LCD-2.


 
  
 I am interested in this comparison but am struggling to find sources for a comparison between the Asgard 2 vs. the Lyr.
  
 Would anyone have anymore input?
  
 Also, thanks a lot guys for all your feedback so far! People seem to be very into the Schiit products!


----------



## DarKen23

defqon said:


> For under $500 I'd rather get a good vintage grade integrated amp with optional headphone out than the Lyr.



+1


----------



## kothganesh

pdrm360 said:


> +1
> 
> Schiit Lyr w/Amperex Orange Globe tubes




+2. This is a very good combo. I use it currently and the LCD 2.2 pairs very very well with it. IMO, of course.


----------



## DarKen23

If it must be between the Lyr and Asgard, Id go with the Asgard.


----------



## Pepper

defqon said:


> For under $500 I'd rather get a good vintage grade integrated amp with optional headphone out than the Lyr.


 
  
 You, my friend, just opened my eyes to a whole... new... world...
  
 I need recommendations, now!  I'm also Googling and searching frantically. 
  
 I'm keeping everyone's comments in mind. Thanks. (I love vintage stuff.)


----------



## DarKen23

pepper said:


> defqon said:
> 
> 
> > For under $500 I'd rather get a good vintage grade integrated amp with optional headphone out than the Lyr.
> ...


You can start here http://www.head-fi.org/t/537704/calling-all-vintage-integrated-receiver-owners. Its only 662 pages


----------



## Synthax

poladise said:


> Well i had a home demo of the Burson Soloist, RWA Corvina and V200. Two weeks for each.
> I was least impressed with the V200, because although it had the most presence and vividness, it sounded too thick and undetailed at times with a kind of hardness and almost glassy quality to it.
> 
> The Soloist had superior clarity and made to V200 sound muddy by comparison, but for me the Soloist lacked some "natural colour". A bit pale sounding.
> ...


 
  
 Is Cassabria better paired with LCD 2?


----------



## DefQon

I must say I am impressed with the aesthetics of the Cassandra (let's just stick with Cassandra for the name now kay?).


----------



## DarKen23

Trumped


----------



## pdrm360

darken23 said:


> Trumped


 
  
 X


----------



## Dubstep Girl

darken23 said:


> Trumped


 
  
  
 +2
  
 l0l0l
  
 i was thinking the same thing as soon as i saw the picture....


----------



## Pepper

I wish I had the money to afford this Isabella, shmizzabelle, Cassabria, Cassandria spiel. Stop making me cry.
  
 I think I'm going to suck it up and get a Mjolnir (used market price) ... It just really sucks that Mjo ONLY has balanced outputs, which means I won't be able to use any other phones with them unless I find some crazy balanced cables. This is the biggest, biggest downside.
  
 Is there anything comparable to the MJO / better and roughly in the same price range used? I've been kind of pushed away from the Lyr because I keep reading that it is just too thick and dark for the LCD2s, which are already fairly thick sounding. I get the impression that the good reviews for the Lyr + LCD2 come from folks who just haven't heard what different / slightly higher end amps can do with the LCD2. And so it's by all means very good in absolute terms, but comparatively speaking it is suboptimal. 
  
 I couldn't find anything clear on the vintage integrated amps. So many worries about who's selling them, if they'll last, etc. It's upsetting. So I think I might stick with dedicated amps...


----------



## DarKen23

dubstep girl said:


> darken23 said:
> 
> 
> > Trumped
> ...


LOL


----------



## DarKen23

pepper said:


> I wish I had the money to afford this Isabella, shmizzabelle, Cassabria, Cassandria spiel. Stop making me cry.
> 
> I think I'm going to suck it up and get a Mjolnir (used market price) ... It just really sucks that Mjo ONLY has balanced outputs, which means I won't be able to use any other phones with them unless I find some crazy balanced cables. This is the biggest, biggest downside.
> 
> ...


Dont you worry now my child, once you hear the LCD2 with the mjolnir all those fear will go away


----------



## perrew

pepper said:


> It just really sucks that Mjo ONLY has balanced outputs, which means I won't be able to use any other phones with them unless I find some crazy balanced cables. This is the biggest, biggest downside.


 
  
 Just get a balanced-to-6.3mm adapter and you can use all phones


----------



## kothganesh

darken23 said:


> Dont you worry now my child, once you hear the LCD2 with the mjolnir all those fear will go away


 
  
 +1. I switch the 2.2s between the Lyr (with Amperex tubes) and the Mojo. Mojo just kills the Lyr. End of story.


----------



## DrNope

Is it that good? I'm using a burson HA160 at the moment and people on here seems to think it's not good enough for the 2.2s. But I'm not listening that loud, would a mjolnir really improve things? What is improved? Normally when I here "underpowered" that means that a better more powerful amp improves low end with more bass and less harsh upper frequency, less fatiguing. Is that what you get by switching to a mjolnir? Still a bit pussled since the impedance of the LCDs are so flat and 50ohmish throughout.


----------



## Chris_Himself

defqon said:


> For under $500 I'd rather get a good vintage grade integrated amp with optional headphone out than the Lyr.


 
  
 You forreal?


----------



## Anavel0

Check the vintage integrated receiver/amp thread. You'd be surprised.


----------



## G600

+1, I'm lost at the same point.
 I would love tou read your thoughts about that before buying LCD-2 and matching amp.
  
 Quote:


pepper said:


> Hey, would anyone be able to recommend what type of amplifier I should get if I am looking to spend max $500 (preferably lower). I am willing to buy the amplifier from someone on Head-Fi, and so we are looking at* after market prices. *Are there any kind of semi-consensus views on solid amps at this price point?
> 
> I was initially interested in the Lyr, and I know it's a solid choice, but I see comments every so often from people who insist that the Lyr gets its butt kicked by a good number of other amps with the LCD-2 Rev 2s.


----------



## haejuk

drnope said:


> Is it that good? I'm using a burson HA160 at the moment and people on here seems to think it's not good enough for the 2.2s. But I'm not listening that loud, would a mjolnir really improve things? What is improved? Normally when I here "underpowered" that means that a better more powerful amp improves low end with more bass and less harsh upper frequency, less fatiguing. Is that what you get by switching to a mjolnir? Still a bit pussled since the impedance of the LCDs are so flat and 50ohmish throughout.


 
 As a fellow HA-160D + LCD2.2 owner.  I wonder the exact same thing as you.  Since I haven't been able to listen to my LCD2 on any of the popular amps with high current output, I haven't been able to compare either.  I can only read the good things people say.  I am pretty satisfied with HA-160D, as even loud listening for me works quite well.  I am however curious how these other amps compare.  Ignorance is probably bliss in this case, but if anyone out there has any direct comparisons of amps like the Mjolnir with HA-160 I would really like to hear about them.


----------



## Barry S

kothganesh said:


> +1. I switch the 2.2s between the Lyr (with Amperex tubes) and the Mojo. Mojo just kills the Lyr. End of story.


 
  
 +2  Have the Lyr (with orange globes, yada yada) and the Mojo--and it's clear the Mojo was tuned for the LCD2. The Mojo is not the swiss army knife of amps, but it's perfect for the LCD2.


----------



## DarKen23

barry s said:


> kothganesh said:
> 
> 
> > +1. I switch the 2.2s between the Lyr (with Amperex tubes) and the Mojo. Mojo just kills the Lyr. End of story.
> ...


+2, with orthos especially the LCD line up, the mojo is the best imo. Keep in mind what Barry S stated "the mojo is not the swiss army knife", I couldnt use my HD800 with the mojo. If I still had an LCD id pick the mojo any day of the week though.


----------



## DarKen23

perrew said:


> pepper said:
> 
> 
> > It just really sucks that Mjo ONLY has balanced outputs, which means I won't be able to use any other phones with them unless I find some crazy balanced cables. This is the biggest, biggest downside.
> ...


WRONG


----------



## thegrobe

perrew said:


> Just get a balanced-to-6.3mm adapter and you can use all phones







darken23 said:


> WRONG




Exactly...that is a good way to severely damage some balanced amplifiers. It may be okay with some amps, best to check directly with the amp manufacturer. Please don't ever bring an adapter like that to a meet and start plugging into people's amplifiers.


----------



## kothganesh

thegrobe said:


> Exactly...that is a good way to severely damage some balanced amplifiers. It may be okay with some amps, best to check directly with the amp manufacturer. Please don't ever bring an adapter like that to a meet and start plugging into people's amplifiers.




 +2. Please do not use adapters. Schiit is very emphatic against the use of such adapters for the Mojo.


----------



## Pepper

So ... Wow, Mjo feedback is extremely, extremely positive. I'm pretty sure I'm buying a Mjolnir now... All I need is the balanced cable now. *dies*
  
 This is what my wallet has to say to you guys:
  


 My wallet is Obamer, lol.


----------



## DarKen23

pepper said:


> So ... Wow, Mjo feedback is extremely, extremely positive. I'm pretty sure I'm buying a Mjolnir now... All I need is the balanced cable now. *dies*


Just make sure you are absolutely content on using that amp with the LCDs and orthos only as I found that everything else just didn't work. "The amp is not a Swiss Army knife" quoted by another member, should be highly considered. So ask yourself if you plan on getting more than 1 type of high end headphones and if you are going own more than 1 amp before making the decision.

If you are sure that the LCD will be your main headphone then mojo is THE amp to get. 

Imho, given that you have a LCD2--its only a matter of time that an HD800 will come around the corner and you might very well end up falling for the HD800. 

Decisions, decisions...


----------



## HPDJ

I have a VERY extensive review of the RWA Signature 16 amp that I'll post a link to here in this thread when it's done. Just some finishing touches....It's a very favorable review and much overdue. Folks need to know what this amp can bring to the table! It's the same single ended headphone output section as the Cassabria standalone headphone amp. But the Cassabria has a balanced headphone output as well...
  
 More very soon!


----------



## DarKen23

hpdj said:


> I have a VERY extensive review of the RWA Signature 16 amp that I'll post a link to here in this thread when it's done. Just some finishing touches....It's a very favorable review and much overdue. Folks need to know what this amp can bring to the table! It's the same single ended headphone output section as the Cassabria standalone headphone amp. But the Cassabria has a balanced headphone output as well...
> 
> More very soon!


So the signature 16 does not have a balanced headphone out?


----------



## HPDJ

No. I believe that is not an option due to space limitations within the amp. The Sig 16 is an integrated speaker amp, with the headphone output avail as an add on (without a compromise to either speaker/headphone listening quality in my experience)...
  
 If you don't need your amp to power speakers as well as headphones then the Cassabria will be what you want for a standalone headphone amp from RWA...my review should give a sense of how the Cassabria performs via it's single ended headphone output since (as I mentioned) it's the same on the Sig 16


----------



## Pepper

So, thanks to you guys, I'm getting my Mjolnir tomorrow!!! I am so excited!
  
 I have a further question, though. I currently am using a Schiit Modi as my DAC. This is obviously a limiting factor, but I think it'll do for now. But, the problem is that the Modi does not have a balanced output ... Are there any bang-for-the-buck balanced DACs for a Mjolnir > LCD-2.2 setup? And, is there a big difference between a balanced DAC and an unbalanced?
  
 And, do DACs make that much of a difference? I am under the impression that they're not close to as important as amplifiers and headphones... Because I really do not think I would ever feel comfortable dropping half a grand on something like the Gungnir.
  
 Thanks a bunch. You guys are so helpful and passionate!


----------



## kothganesh

pepper said:


> So, thanks to you guys, I'm getting my Mjolnir tomorrow!!! I am so excited!
> 
> I have a further question, though. I currently am using a Schiit Modi as my DAC. This is obviously a limiting factor, but I think it'll do for now. But, the problem is that the Modi does not have a balanced output ... Are there any bang-for-the-buck balanced DACs for a Mjolnir > LCD-2.2 setup? And, is there a big difference between a balanced DAC and an unbalanced?
> 
> ...


 
  
 Pepper, IMHO, the Gungnir's is the ying to the Mjolnir's yang. You do need a good DAC, absolutely. You will get some very good recommendations in the various threads about DACs. As I am typing this, I have my Air feeding the Gungnir/Mjolinir into the LCD 2.2. Talk about having a blast. Now I need to temper my enthusiasm versus practical needs like budget etc. So, take that into account.


----------



## DarKen23

pepper said:


> So, thanks to you guys, I'm getting my Mjolnir tomorrow!!! I am so excited!
> 
> I have a further question, though. I currently am using a Schiit Modi as my DAC. This is obviously a limiting factor, but I think it'll do for now. But, the problem is that the Modi does not have a balanced output ... Are there any bang-for-the-buck balanced DACs for a Mjolnir > LCD-2.2 setup? And, is there a big difference between a balanced DAC and an unbalanced?
> 
> ...


The mjolnir is great, the gungnir--not so much..What kind of sound are you looking for? Also, if you decided on the gungnir, save yourself $100 and pass up the usb implement and spend it on a decent external converter.


----------



## kothganesh

darken23 said:


> The mjolnir is great, the gungnir--not so much..


 
  
 For my own edification, what do you not like about the Gungnir ? At the end of the day, everything is subjective but getting more insights into the Gungnir are always welcome. Thanks.


----------



## DarKen23

kothganesh said:


> darken23 said:
> 
> 
> > The mjolnir is great, the gungnir--not so much..
> ...


I didnt like the way its timbre sounded. It lacked too much top end extension. I thought the D18 dac was an excellent match with the mojo, actually I loved it with the LCD2. The D18 is an extremely forgiving dac, that could be a good and bad thing depending on what he/she is looking for.. But I assure you, the pairing is quite wonderful.


----------



## Zashoomin

darken23 said:


> I didnt like the way its timbre sounded. It lacked too much top end extension. I thought the D18 dac was an excellent match with the mojo, actually I loved it with the LCD2. The D18 is an extremely forgiving dac, that could be a good and bad thing depending on what he/she is looking for.. But I assure you, the pairing is quite wonderful.


 
  
 I would have to agree with DarKen the D18 is wonderful and the DA8 is even better if you can afford it.  The only issue I had with the D18 though is it doesn't have a USB input.  If you are going to be using USB I highly recommend the Resonessence Labs Concero but if not than the D18.


----------



## Chris_Himself

kothganesh said:


> For my own edification, what do you not like about the Gungnir ? At the end of the day, everything is subjective but getting more insights into the Gungnir are always welcome. Thanks.


 
  
 I didn't like that it was slightly on the bright side. I think paired with a different DAC, the Mjolnir performs splendidly with HD800's.


----------



## DefQon

haejuk said:


> As a fellow HA-160D + LCD2.2 owner.  I wonder the exact same thing as you.  Since I haven't been able to listen to my LCD2 on any of the popular amps with high current output, I haven't been able to compare either.  I can only read the good things people say.  I am pretty satisfied with HA-160D, as even loud listening for me works quite well.  I am however curious how these other amps compare.  Ignorance is probably bliss in this case, but if anyone out there has any direct comparisons of amps like the Mjolnir with HA-160 I would really like to hear about them.


 
  
 If you like the 160D + LCD2 (which I never did), if you do upgrade in the future I think the Soloist may be something you might like, major improvement over the HA-160 but still far cry from being in my personal top 10 amp list for the LCD2's. YMMV.


----------



## Chris_Himself

Are the V200's still the shizzle? I haven't heard about those for a while.. dang was that setup expensive though.


----------



## DefQon

You know hype wears off for new products eventually. V200 are still good contenders but it seems more people have moved onto the Soloist and other Burson stuff and moved onto LCD3's or other headphones from the LCD2's.


----------



## Chris_Himself

defqon said:


> You know hype wears off for new products eventually. V200 are still good contenders but it seems more people have moved onto the Soloist and other Burson stuff and moved onto LCD3's or other headphones from the LCD2's.


 
  
 In that case I wonder if the Headroom amps are actually really good even though they've been out forever...


----------



## longbowbbs

chris_himself said:


> defqon said:
> 
> 
> > You know hype wears off for new products eventually. V200 are still good contenders but it seems more people have moved onto the Soloist and other Burson stuff and moved onto LCD3's or other headphones from the LCD2's.
> ...


 
  
 HP Amp tech has been advancing quickly. My first HP amp was a Headroom, but it is not up to the competition today.


----------



## paradoxper

longbowbbs said:


> HP Amp tech has been advancing quickly. My first HP amp was a Headroom, but it is not up to the competition today.


 
  
 Amp tech?


----------



## longbowbbs

paradoxper said:


> longbowbbs said:
> 
> 
> > HP Amp tech has been advancing quickly. My first HP amp was a Headroom, but it is not up to the competition today.
> ...


 
  
 The increasing popularity of Headphones means more research and innovation in materials, op amps, etc. The available quality of gear has improved a lot in the last few years.


----------



## HPDJ

My EXTENSIVE review of the RWA Signature 16 is up for viewing:
  
http://www.head-fi.org/t/683531/review-red-wine-audio-signature-16-integrated-headphone-speaker-amplifier
  
  
 Enjoy


----------



## paradoxper

longbowbbs said:


> The increasing popularity of Headphones means more research and innovation in materials, op amps, etc. The available quality of gear has improved a lot in the last few years.


 
 Well, opamps are in a lot of electronics, but they aren't a headphone amplifier specific type of tech. I see what you mean though.


----------



## zilch0md

*TBI Audio Millenia MG3 *(Class BD, 32Wpc into 8-Ohm on 24VDC power)
  
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue62/millenia.htm
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue67/tbi_millenia.htm
http://tbisound.com/dsp_products_millenia.asp
  

  

  
 HPRC 2400F case, with Touch shown for scale.
  
 Mike


----------



## Poladise

hpdj said:


> My EXTENSIVE review of the RWA Signature 16 is up for viewing:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/683531/review-red-wine-audio-signature-16-integrated-headphone-speaker-amplifier
> 
> ...


 
  
 Nice review HPDJ. The fact that you mostly described details you notice in the recordings rather than the specific way the amp is reproducing the sound must mean it's doing it's job well. In such a long review I did find this bit amusing though 


> my amp at the time (Decware Taboo MKIII) and did a shoot-out. Long story short, the Sig 16 made my demo tracks sound a little more detailed and the bass was tighter.


 
  That comparison is probably main thing people would like a 'long story' on.
  
 Also you mentioned wanting to hear the difference between your SE and the balanced headphone output version. It might be worth checking if you can re-terminate your LCD-2's & run directly from the speaker terminals. You'd should get at least 2W into your LCDs. Reading about success people are having with speaker amps like the 'TBI mg3' above, would love hear a comparison between a balanced Cassabria and a Signature 16 from the speaker terminals.


----------



## DrNope

defqon said:


> If you like the 160D + LCD2 (which I never did), if you do upgrade in the future I think the Soloist may be something you might like, major improvement over the HA-160 but still far cry from being in my personal top 10 amp list for the LCD2's. YMMV.


 
  
 Why did you not like it?
 Soloist should sound the same I'd guess, the company is the same and probably also the ears tuning the amp. More power, but if you don't push the HA160, would you notice? I don't listen louder then at 9 o'clock on normal records. Should be plenty of head-room left?
  
 edit: Sorry, you already commented on the fact that the soloist and HA160 would sound alike....


----------



## Dubstep Girl

drnope said:


> Why did you not like it?
> Soloist should sound the same I'd guess, the company is the same and probably also the ears tuning the amp. More power, but if you don't push the HA160, would you notice? I don't listen louder then at 9 o'clock on normal records. Should be plenty of head-room left?
> 
> edit: Sorry, you already commented on the fact that the soloist and HA160 would sound alike....


 
  
 i doubt they'd sound anything alike.
  
 the HA-160 is known to be a poor match with many headphones and theres mixed reviews of it. i always heard bright, harsh, bassy, and underpowered as some of the words used to describe it.
  
 the soloist however, sounds absolutely fantastic and is one of the best SS amps available in its price range.


----------



## DefQon

drnope said:


> Why did you not like it?
> Soloist should sound the same I'd guess, the company is the same and probably also the ears tuning the amp. More power, but if you don't push the HA160, would you notice? I don't listen louder then at 9 o'clock on normal records. Should be plenty of head-room left?
> 
> edit: Sorry, you already commented on the fact that the soloist and HA160 would sound alike....


 
 The HA-160 was just not focused enough with the headphones it was praised here to pair well with. The HA-160 sounded like an amp that was trying to impress me with all aspects of sound but only halfway, it was just a mixed bag. 
  
 The Soloist and HA-160 won't sound very similar if you have brief hearing comparison's between the two, but if you listen to both for a little longer you can definitely go point at the Soloist and say "hey this bit sounds like the HA-160 but improved". This was definitely the case with a lot of users here that went from the HA-160 to the Soloist.
  


dubstep girl said:


> i doubt they'd sound anything alike.
> 
> the HA-160 is known to be a poor match with many headphones and theres mixed reviews of it. i always heard bright, harsh, bassy, and underpowered as some of the words used to describe it.
> 
> the soloist however, sounds absolutely fantastic and is one of the best SS amps available in its price range.


 
  
 They have the same sound signature but the Soloist is a step or two ahead of it. Funny I never saw mixed reviews here of it, especially not in the old LCD2's thread where people endlessly raved about how a HA-160 + LCD2 (non angled) is on par with the HD800's, those impression/posts were a good laugh.
  
 The Soloist one of the best SS amps in it's price range? 
 Let me guess you took that out of Soludes book didn't cha?


----------



## Dubstep Girl

defqon said:


> The HA-160 was just not focused enough with the headphones it was praised here to pair well with. The HA-160 sounded like an amp that was trying to impress me with all aspects of sound but only halfway, it was just a mixed bag.
> 
> The Soloist and HA-160 won't sound very similar if you have brief hearing comparison's between the two, but if you listen to both for a little longer you can definitely go point at the Soloist and say "hey this bit sounds like the HA-160 but improved". This was definitely the case with a lot of users here that went from the HA-160 to the Soloist.
> 
> ...


 
  
 actually i didn't 





  
 but i think it is, i've heard it and i love how it pairs with LCD-2.
  
 i know people like HA-160 with LCD-2 as well, but i know ive heard terrible things about it pairing with HD 800/T1. and ppl still say it lacks power for some of the planars. so thats mostly the reviews i've heard.


----------



## DefQon

Well in reference to what I was originally saying about the praise the HA-160 originally received was being a godfather pairing with the LCD2's nothing else. I didn't find this the case and so same many other experienced posters/owners.
  
 The Soloist is ok but it still doesn't depreciate the sounding flaws of the LCD2's to the extent the Mojo does which IMHO I'd consider an excellent amp for the LCD2's and HD650's.
  
 But it's ok to agree to disagree.


----------



## jsgraha

I do live with Soloist for more than a year, and still like it. I've tried to replace it, but still can't find a solid state that I like. Tried almost all ss amp at Addicted to Audio (from schiit, bryston, sudgen, v200, to cavalli) still prefer my soloist. I never live with 160d though so I don't know how it compare.

Only with Lcd2, mjolnir is better than soloist to my ears. With others inc hd800, Soloist is better. So if I have to choose 1 amp for my phones, definitely soloist.

The next on my list will be schiit statement, master 8 and gs-x. Hopefully one of them can replace my soloist (already prepare the fund, but won't buy new amp unheard)


----------



## Dubstep Girl

defqon said:


> Well in reference to what I was originally saying about the praise the HA-160 originally received was being a godfather pairing with the LCD2's nothing else. I didn't find this the case and so same many other experienced posters/owners.
> 
> The Soloist is ok but it still doesn't depreciate the sounding flaws of the LCD2's to the extent the Mojo does which IMHO I'd consider an excellent amp for the LCD2's and HD650's.
> 
> But it's ok to agree to disagree.


 
  
 yeah i used to heard that too.
  
 probably becuase there weren't so many options for LCD-2 when it came out. planars where fairly new.
  
 never heard the mojo, so can't comment on it. there was one last meet i was at, unfortunately didn't get time to check it out.


----------



## Dubstep Girl

jsgraha said:


> I do live with Soloist for more than a year, and still like it. I've tried to replace it, but still can't find a solid state that I like. Tried almost all ss amp at Addicted to Audio (from schiit, bryston, sudgen, v200, to cavalli) still prefer my soloist. I never live with 160d though so I don't know how it compare.
> 
> Only with Lcd2, mjolnir is better than soloist to my ears. With others inc hd800, Soloist is better. So if I have to choose 1 amp for my phones, definitely soloist.
> 
> The next on my list will be schiit statement, master 8 and gs-x. Hopefully one of them can replace my soloist (already prepare the fund, but won't buy new amp unheard)


 
  
 i finally like my LCD-3 now that i have GS-X. i didn't like them alot before.
  
 i wish i had LCD-2 again to try out with GS-X, it must be a killer pairing, as are all my other headphones with the GS-X


----------



## DefQon

I feel like buying a Mojo now with all this talk.


----------



## FredrikT92

How is Audio GD with LCD-2?
 They have some pretty damn powerful amps!


----------



## Dubstep Girl

defqon said:


> I feel like buying a Mojo now with all this talk.


 
  
 i did a while ago too, but after all the GS-X impressions i decided to just go for it instead. i was gonna get mojo for lcd-2/3, wa2 for t1, and basically go down my list and get an amp for each headphone i had.


----------



## Tony1110

dubstep girl said:


> i did a while ago too, but after all the GS-X impressions i decided to just go for it instead. i was gonna get mojo for lcd-2/3, wa2 for t1, and basically go down my list and get an amp for each headphone i had.




Which amp would you have chosen for your Fostex?


----------



## Dubstep Girl

tony1110 said:


> Which amp would you have chosen for your Fostex?


 
  
 soloist or just would of kept WA6-SE.
  
 originally i was gonna go for zana deux, and i heard it, the synergy with the TH-900 is there, but i like a bassy presentation out of the TH-900, the zana made it more ethereal and open sounding, like a closed version of a HD 800, the soundstage was massive. but i have the HD 800 for that.


----------



## Barry S

The LCD2 sounds great with the GS-X mk2. I like the LCD2 just a hair more with the Mjolnir because it brightens the signature a bit, but both amps are amazing pairings with the LCD2 and LCD3. The GS-X also pairs well with brighter headphones that sound harsh on the Mjolnir, like the HD800. No question, the GS-X is a better all-arounder.


----------



## Tony1110

barry s said:


> The LCD2 sounds great with the GS-X mk2. I like the LCD2 just a hair more with the Mjolnir because it brightens the signature a bit, but both amps are amazing pairings with the LCD2 and LCD3. The GS-X also pairs well with brighter headphones that sound harsh on the Mjolnir, like the HD800. No question, the GS-X is a better all-arounder.




I should think so. It's about four times the price


----------



## Blurpapa

Dude. Give the Denon headphones a spin. You may like them. 



tgtbatq said:


> thank you everyone for your replies and advice, i've been advised to get the Bifrost and Lyr, as opposed to just getting the Mjolnir and not using a dac.
> What are the advantages/disadvantages of one over the other?


----------



## Dubstep Girl

barry s said:


> The LCD2 sounds great with the GS-X mk2. I like the LCD2 just a hair more with the Mjolnir because it brightens the signature a bit, but both amps are amazing pairings with the LCD2 and LCD3. The GS-X also pairs well with brighter headphones that sound harsh on the Mjolnir, like the HD800. No question, the GS-X is a better all-arounder.


 
  
 ah i see. kinda like how i still prefer the WA2 by a hair to the GS-X with the T1 cause it adds more fullness and smoothness, though its subtle and the GSX does perform better in other things.
  
 for now i'm convinced the GS-X is the best all rounder for planars, sounding great with LCD-3 as well as both my hifimans. i hope to hear the mojo sometime in the future, since it seems like its the best you can get for audeze under $1000


----------



## preproman

barry s said:


> The LCD2 sounds great with the GS-X mk2. I like the LCD2 just a hair more with the Mjolnir because it brightens the signature a bit, but both amps are amazing pairings with the LCD2 and LCD3. The GS-X also pairs well with brighter headphones that sound harsh on the Mjolnir, like the HD800. *No question, the GS-X is a better all-arounder.*


 
  
 I agree 100%  I've owned the Burson HA - 160D, after that I didn't want to try another Burson.  Although the Soloist just may be a good amp - I'll never know.  
  
 I also like the LCDs with the Mjolnir over any other amp I've heard - just the LCDs / Mjolnir.  
  
 If I had multiple headphones of all kinds there is no question I'll pick the GS-X mk2 - just no question.  Yes the DAC does show it's true colors or lack there of with the GS-X mk2.  So if you have the GS-X mk2 the DAC is just as important of a purchase IMO..


----------



## Dubstep Girl

preproman said:


> I agree 100%  I've owned the Burson HA - 160D, after that I didn't want to try another Burson.  Although the Soloist just may be a good amp - I'll never know.
> 
> I also like the LCDs with the Mjolnir over any other amp I've heard - just the LCDs / Mjolnir.
> 
> If I had multiple headphones of all kinds there is no question I'll pick the GS-X mk2 - just no question.  Yes the DAC does show it's true colors or lack there of with the GS-X mk2.  So if you have the GS-X mk2 the DAC is just as important of a purchase IMO..


 
  
 very happy with GSX mk2 and my DAC. 
  
 so the Mjolnir really is THE amp for the LCD-2/LCD-3. guess its not the dark star or the liquid fire/liquid glass as others here would have me believe


----------



## Poladise

Gary in MD's comments on it from the speaker amp thread are interesting
  


> The Mjolnir is like a 2D 1080P (or maybe even 4K) HDTV that only reproduces black and white (and to be fair, shades of gray) in 2D.  The details are there, but lifeless, cold, unreal.


----------



## Dubstep Girl

poladise said:


> Gary in MD's comments on it from the speaker amp thread are interesting


 
  
 ouch. ive heard the same thing about amps like the Bryston BHA-1.


----------



## kothganesh

dubstep girl said:


> i did a while ago too, but after all the GS-X impressions i decided to just go for it instead. i was gonna get mojo for lcd-2/3, wa2 for t1, and basically go down my list and get an amp for each headphone i had.


 
  
 That's how I feel too. Have the Lyr, Soloist, Mojo. Between you, Solude and MacedonianHero, GS-X beckons.


----------



## kothganesh

poladise said:


> Gary in MD's comments on it from the speaker amp thread are interesting


 
  
 Were his comments with reference to a particular headphone with Mojo or generally about the amp. I find the Mojo to be great with the LCDs and the HE 500. YMMV, I suppose.


----------



## Wil

Just a thought...i have the Almarro 318BN. Is it possible to DIY a connector to the speaker binding posts (ending with a 1/4" female connection) to connect my LCD 2s directly to the amp? Or is there the need for some sort of resistor in between (im no electrician, my apologies!).
  
 Amp specs as follows:
  
 Tube complement: 2x6C33C, 1x6SL7, 1x6SN7
 Connections: 3 RCA inputs, 4/8-ohm outputs
 Output power: 18wpc


----------



## preproman

kothganesh said:


> *Were his comments with reference to a particular headphone *with Mojo or generally about the amp. I find the Mojo to be great with the LCDs and the HE 500. YMMV, I suppose.


 
  
 The LCD-3


----------



## kothganesh

preproman said:


> The LCD-3


 
  
 Thanks. To each his own. I am listening to the Mojo/LCD-3 right now. Lifeless ? Dull ? Wow.


----------



## Poladise

I don't think any dullness was reported. Its more like turning the colour control all the way down on a TV.

 I got a similar impression from the Soloist actually (with LCD2). I tried one for a week and all my music sounded unnaturally colourless / cold / pale.


----------



## DefQon

poladise said:


> I don't think any dullness was reported. Its more like turning the colour control all the way down on a TV.
> 
> I got a similar impression from the Soloist actually (with LCD2). I tried one for a week and all my music sounded unnaturally colourless / cold / pale.


 
  
 That's exactly how I felt about the Soloist + LCD2 combo as well.


----------



## zilch0md

defqon said:


> That's exactly how I felt about the Soloist + LCD2 combo as well.


 
  
 Me three!


----------



## Dubstep Girl

i thought soloist + lcd-2 was very good, though i did prefer my WA6-SE by a small margin. i guess its just the SS sound.


----------



## NZheadcase

After half a year with the Soloist+LCD 2.2, I really can't agree that it makes music lifeless, cold, etc. it is a great combination in my experience. I won't go as far as saying it is end game extremely excellent as I have yet to hear higher end amps, but it has given me many, many enjoyable hours and holy **** moments. 

The best compliment I can pay the Soloist NAD M51 combo is that since putting them together, I have not made nor plan to upgrade gear. I am just presently very pleased with this. The soloist with nad m51 makes my LCD 2 and all other cans I have (except the HE500) really shine.


----------



## Dubstep Girl

nzheadcase said:


> After half a year with the Soloist+LCD 2.2, I really can't agree that it makes music lifeless, cold, etc. it is a great combination in my experience. I won't go as far as saying it is end game extremely excellent as I have yet to hear higher end amps, but it has given me many, many enjoyable hours and holy **** moments.
> 
> The best compliment I can pay the Soloist NAD M51 combo is that since putting them together, I have not made nor plan to upgrade gear. I am just presently very pleased with this. The soloist with nad m51 makes my LCD 2 and all other cans I have (except the HE500) really shine.


 
  
 u didn't like soloist with HE-500?


----------



## NZheadcase

Not that I didn't like them or they weren't good. It feels to me in this setup, the HE500's were the least synergistic. T1, LCD 2, TH900, all excellent. Mucho overkill on the TH900 but excellent as well.


----------



## DefQon

nzheadcase said:


>





> I have not made nor plan to upgrade gear. I am just presently very pleased with this. The soloist with nad m51 makes my LCD 2 and all other cans I have (except the HE500) really shine.


 
 If you're happy with your current setup, why upgrade?


----------



## NZheadcase

Thats what I just said. Previous setups and some of my other gear, when on listening sessions, there's that creeping thought in your mind that says "that was good! But it could use a bit more [insert adjective here]."

The Soloist+NAD M51 paired with the LCD 2.2 banishes such thoughts away. I guess I'm lucky there are no meets up my way. Heehee. Otherwise, I think upgradeitis will have its way.


----------



## Pepper

Hey guys,
  
 I am running a Modi > Mjolnir > LCD-2.2 setup right now.
  
 I know that the Modi is the weakest part of the chain right now. With that in mind, it seems like my LCD-2s are lacking bass. They sound fantastic, but there is not a lot of bass slam or anything, and it doesn't sound impactful nor punchy. If anything, it sounds like the same quantity of bass as my HD650s, which were pretty polite about bass.
  
 I suspect it is the Modi. Is it possible that the Modi is somehow causing a lack of bass with my LCD-2s?
  
 I wonder which affordable DAC would solve this problem (if this is indeed a DAC issue).
  
 Thanks!


----------



## jsgraha

nzheadcase said:


> Thats what I just said. Previous setups and some of my other gear, when on listening sessions, there's that creeping thought in your mind that says "that was good! But it could use a bit more [insert adjective here]."
> 
> The Soloist+NAD M51 paired with the LCD 2.2 banishes such thoughts away. I guess I'm lucky there are no meets up my way. Heehee. Otherwise, I think upgradeitis will have its way.




Ap2 + m51 + Soloist setup make me bought hd800 (hate this phone before)
It is a really nice dac.
One of the good dac in my book.
M51 + Mjolnir is a nice setup for Abyss =)


----------



## NZheadcase

The Mjolnir has been on my radar for a while as well, but I don't feel the need to shift just now. From what I read, the Mjolnir is really a great amp for Audeze's cans and HiFiMan cans as well.
  
 I'm holding out for impressions on the Schiit statement once they come out - specifically the tube hybrid version in 2014. Jason mentioned he is confident they can squeeze out a bit more performance from the topology used in the Mjolnir. That also has a single ended out, which will be good as I don't think I will reterminate my current SE dynamics.


----------



## mentt

poladise said:


> I don't think any dullness was reported. Its more like turning the colour control all the way down on a TV.
> 
> I got a similar impression from the Soloist actually (with LCD2). I tried one for a week and all my music sounded unnaturally colourless / cold / pale.


 
  
 I have same feeling regarding MF M1DAC
 "unnaturally colourless / cold / pale"


----------



## ninjapirate9901

Well I ended up puling the trigger on a Soloist which arrived this afternoon.
  

  
 Not bad, not bad at all. The added treble energy is a nice change of pace from what I'm used to. Bass is tight and punchy, mids are pretty neutral. Definitely a brighter sounding amp compared to my HA-160 or Mini-X.
  
 More listening required...


----------



## NZheadcase

Burson recommends 30 minutes of burn in time before use. I used to not put much stock in that but through experience, the longer the Soloist is on, the better the overall experience you get. It also does need a bit of burn in time before it fully gives you all its got. 
  
 Waiting for impressions.


----------



## fabio-fi

ninjapirate9901 said:


> Well I ended up puling the trigger on a Soloist which arrived this afternoon.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 It's a nice improvement over the 160 series, once it reach the 50/80+ hours mark its a whole new level of performance.


----------



## DefQon

Is it me or are the newer LCD2's actually getting lighter in wood tone?


----------



## DarKen23

nzheadcase said:


> The Mjolnir has been on my radar for a while as well, but I don't feel the need to shift just now. From what I read, the Mjolnir is really a great amp for Audeze's cans and HiFiMan cans as well.
> 
> I'm holding out for impressions on the Schiit statement once they come out - specifically the tube hybrid version in 2014. Jason mentioned he is confident they can squeeze out a bit more performance from the topology used in the Mjolnir. That also has a single ended out, which will be good as I don't think I will reterminate my current SE dynamics.


Im not too excited about the new statement amps..I believe the MJ will still come out on top at a better value. 

The MJ is great with every planar, it was built around planar phones afterall.


----------



## NZheadcase

Please don't tempt me! Lol! Well, at least if the new statement gear does not blow the mjolnir out of the water, maybe I can score a good deal on a hand me down from the classifieds. 

Though since it is supposed to used the same core design, I do expect it to be at least a Mjolnir Plus.

Meantime, the LCD 2's will be driven happily here by the soloist.


----------



## DarKen23

nzheadcase said:


> Please don't tempt me! Lol! Well, at least if the new statement gear does not blow the mjolnir out of the water, maybe I can score a good deal on a hand me down from the classifieds.
> 
> Though since it is supposed to used the same core design, I do expect it to be at least a Mjolnir Plus.
> 
> Meantime, the LCD 2's will be driven happily here by the soloist.


If you are happy with the soloist, wait till you hear the LCD with MJ..

The beating of the wallet continues...


----------



## DarKen23

ninjapirate9901 said:


> Well I ended up puling the trigger on a Soloist which arrived this afternoon.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Great photo btw.


----------



## DarKen23

tony1110 said:


> barry s said:
> 
> 
> > The LCD2 sounds great with the GS-X mk2. I like the LCD2 just a hair more with the Mjolnir because it brightens the signature a bit, but both amps are amazing pairings with the LCD2 and LCD3. The GS-X also pairs well with brighter headphones that sound harsh on the Mjolnir, like the HD800. No question, the GS-X is a better all-arounder.
> ...


Price should not be a factor with "which sounds better". While the GS-X may be the better amp while costing plenty more in this case, it does not indicate that spending more guarantees better sq in a similar scenario.

I wouldnt be surprised and go bananas if the Mjolnir proves to be the winner with the LCD lineup.


----------



## kothganesh

Anyone using LCD 2 (or 3) try out the AuraliC Taurus MK II amp ? Just read a review and got my curiosity perked up.


----------



## DarKen23

kothganesh said:


> Anyone using LCD 2 (or 3) try out the AuraliC Taurus MK II amp ? Just read a review and got my curiosity perked up.


Ive been very curious about that Taurus amp. Its said to be a warm amp which is exactly what Im looking for with HD800.


----------



## DrNope

ninjapirate9901 said:


> Not bad, not bad at all. The added treble energy is a nice change of pace from what I'm used to. Bass is tight and punchy, mids are pretty neutral. Definitely a brighter sounding amp compared to my HA-160 or Mini-X.
> 
> More listening required...


 
 Brighter? I'd want mine to be less bright, calm down the upper part a bit. But then again, when using my HD650 I'm surprised how they sound as if there's a blanket put between my ears and the headphone, don't like that a bit anymore now that I have something else to compare with which apparently is better. Guess I really should turn toward tubes instead?


----------



## preproman

darken23 said:


> Im not too excited about the new statement amps..I believe the MJ will still come out on top at a better value.
> 
> *The MJ is great with every planar, it was built around planar phones afterall.*


 
 All planars don't sound the same.  While I like the MJ with the LCDs I don't like it with the HiFimans or the Mad dogs.  Thats just me.  The good thing about the Statement amp is that it will have a gain switch, this will allow it to pair better with other headphones.  Have to wait and see if that holds true..


----------



## DarKen23

preproman said:


> darken23 said:
> 
> 
> > Im not too excited about the new statement amps..I believe the MJ will still come out on top at a better value.
> ...


And a single ended input for headphones


----------



## Barry S

preproman said:


> All planars don't sound the same.  While I like the MJ with the LCDs I don't like it with the HiFimans or the Mad dogs.  Thats just me.  The good thing about the Statement amp is that it will have a gain switch, this will allow it to pair better with other headphones.  Have to wait and see if that holds true..




+1

The HiFiman planars I've tried with the the Mjolnir (HE-400/HE-500) didn't pair well. The HE-500, which is tuned to be a brightish can, got bright to the point of harshness. The HE-400--well, do you really want to emphasize that tizziness? The HiFiman planar I like is the HE-6, and my understanding is it isn't great with the Mjolnir.

The statement amp may not be a quantum improvement in powering the LCDs, but if it becomes more GS-X like in its versatility, that would be worth a lot. By its definition, a "statement" amp should blow people away--and I think Schiit wouldn't send out a flagship that has people saying, meh!


----------



## G600

Hello guys.
  
 I'm looking for an amp for my upcoming LCD-2, and I need some advices.
 I hold the Mjolnir at the top of my list, but are there amps less "clinical" - that bring more emotion to the music ?
 I'm open to tube amps and Dac-Amp combos, and looking between 500 and 1000$ (2nd hands are OK, but on the lower side of the range).
  
 Best regards and thanks for help!


----------



## levinhatz

g600 said:


> Hello guys.
> 
> I'm looking for an amp for my upcoming LCD-2, and I need some advices.
> I hold the Mjolnir at the top of my list, but are there amps less "clinical" - that bring more emotion to the music ?
> ...


 
  
 The Woo WA6-SE or the Little Dot MK VI+. I spent some time debating between the two and ultimately went with the Little Dot. It sounds pretty fantastic and even better with a good set of tubes. Tube rolling is where it can get expensive. I picked up my Little Dot for $600 used.


----------



## knopi

g600 said:


> I hold the Mjolnir at the top of my list, but are there amps less "clinical" - that bring more emotion to the music ?


 
  
 Mm LCD2 bring enough emotion with solid state amp, it is their character. So my recomend for you hold Mjolnir at the top, Audeze is darker you need help them a little.


----------



## Barry S

There's nothing clinical or overly analytical about the LCD-2 out of the Mjolnir--controlled, detailed, and powerful is how I'd describe the sound. A clean, powerful, and accurate amp like the Mjolnir preserves the harmonic detail that makes recordings sound realistic and maximizes the separation and dynamics in the mix.


----------



## kothganesh

knopi said:


> Mm LCD2 bring enough emotion with solid state amp, it is their character. So my recomend for you hold Mjolnir at the top, Audeze is darker you need help them a little.


 
 +1. Just got off an extended session with the Mojo and lcd 2/3. The Mojo is on the brighter side , IMO, and the 2 works well with it.


----------



## preproman

How about the Mojo paired with a tube DAC?


----------



## kothganesh

preproman said:


> How about the Mojo paired with a tube DAC?



Happy to betray my ignorance to learn . Please tell me about tube DACs. I did not know that they existed.


----------



## preproman

Well it really depends on how much $$$ you want to spend.  They can start out really cheap get really expensive.


----------



## zilch0md

g600 said:


> Hello guys.
> 
> I'm looking for an amp for my upcoming LCD-2, and I need some advices.
> I hold the Mjolnir at the top of my list, but are there amps less "clinical" - that bring more emotion to the music ?
> ...


 
  
 An amp "that brings more emotion to the music"?
  
 $500 to $1000?
  
 I have to put in another plug for the *TBI Audio Millenia MG3* (a stunningly analog-sounding 32-Watts into 8-Ohm speaker amp that offers a wonderful, organic, natural reproduction of any and all acoustic instruments and vocals, which is to say, it can handle everything else very well, too.  Piano sounds like piano, guitar, brass instruments, you name it - this amp makes music instead of reproducing it.  
  
 It has none of the harsh, analytical glare of many solid state amps, with a very smooth treble and superb rendering of micro details necessary for soundstage and imaging.  It really sounds GREAT with my LCD-2 rev.1, using a custom-made impedance match (crafted and tuned by the amp's designer, Jan Plummer).   The impedance match delivers around 5 Watts per channel into the 50-Ohm LCD-2, providing plenty of power for dynamics and bass control.
  
 Better still, the amp can be powered by 12- to 24-Volt DC batteries or external power supplies.  I use a 24-Volt, 6-cell LiPo battery that can operate the MG3 for 35 hours on a single charge - providing ultra-clean power for both desktop use and for my "travel rig".
  
 I also use the MG3 (without the impedance match, but still on battery power) with some very efficient, 8-Ohm Definitive Technology SM45 monitors that offer 90 dB SPL at standard parameters.  Again, they sound great with the MG3 - very organic and natural.  
  
 The MG3 sells for $500, new, and the impedance match for LCD-2 was another $100.
  

 Quoting Steve Hoffman's enthusiastic review at Positive Feedback:  http://positive-feedback.com/Issue67/tbi_millenia.htm
  


> The 2.0 series [MG3] amplifier now dissolves several more sonic artifacts, and projects an honest rendition of the music into the room that makes an immediate connection with the listener. Over the years Mary Chapin Carpenter has logged a great many hours on my systems, and I find her music to be satisfying over the long haul, but also very well recorded. "John Doe No. 24" [_Stones In the Road_; Columbia CK 64327] is a long time reference, and *the Millenia turns in a performance that is worthy of an affordable high end amplifier.* Carpenter is located well out into the room with an immediacy that brings out the subtle texture of her dark and introspective vocal style. Her guitar playing has a languid pace, and you can just close your eyes and see her fingers work over each string, and slide across the neck in a an unhurried pace. Branford Marsalis is responsible for the poignant saxophone work on this song, and while the instrument is located farther back in the sound stage, it has such compelling tone and texture that it cannot be ignored. Marsalis closes the song with a melancholic solo, and the saxophone has such a vibrant feel to it that all the emotion he places in this passage flows out to the listener. *The Millenia now has the ability to affect an emotional connection between artist and audience, and that is a rare trait that separates the pedestrian consumer grade level of electronics from what the hobbyist would consider to be higher performance audio gear.*


 
  
 My "travel rig":
  

  

  
 And as a desktop rig:
  

  
 Jan Plummer offers a 30-day return policy, so I would encourage you to give it a try.  
  
http://www.tbisound.com/dsp_products_millenia.asp
  
 Mike


----------



## DarKen23

zilch0md said:


> g600 said:
> 
> 
> > Hello guys.
> ...


 
 That amp sounds interesting. Have you had a chance to pair it with the HD800? Would you say the MG3 is a neutral amp?


----------



## G600

Thank you very much guy for your help.
 You are a pleasure to read, and I'm looking forward new replies !


----------



## zilch0md

darken23 said:


> That amp sounds interesting. Have you had a chance to pair it with the HD800? Would you say the MG3 is a neutral amp?


 
  
 I've never heard it with the HD800, but I would describe it as neutral and extremely transparent.  
  
 Here's a Head-Fi member (FlySweep) who thinks a lot of the HD800 with MG3 (using an impedance match that Jan Plummer optimized for the HD800):  http://www.head-fi.org/t/649107/speaker-amps-for-headphones/1005#post_9794963


> *I totally understand how many SET owners have found the Millenia [MG3] to be one of the first solid state amps to satisfy them.  The sound possesses a uniquely elegant warmth & extremely refined liquidity.. while simultaneously sounding unbelievably clean, speedy, clear, detailed, and boasting excellent bandwidth.  I (personally) haven't heard anything quite like it, actually.. it's, quite simply, mesmerizing.  How it manages to sound so accurate and transparent through all this.. I have no idea.*
> 
> *It's accurate.. but not remotely fatiguing, clinical, or harsh.  The background is remarkably silent.  I've never heard dynamic swings come across so smooth, well controlled, and effortless.  The tonal purity is hypnotizing.  I simply love linear, wonderfully extended, tight, punchy, fast bass & crisp, airy, open (and again, linear) treble.. but the Millenia's midrange, is nothing short of sublime.*
> 
> *This is, without a doubt, one of the finest amps I've heard the HD800 with.*


 
  
 And with the HD600 (using the same impedance match):   http://www.head-fi.org/t/649107/speaker-amps-for-headphones/1140#post_9851367    
                         
                                                                           AND    http://www.head-fi.org/t/649107/speaker-amps-for-headphones/1140#post_9851606   
  
 One thing to keep in mind regarding the impedance matches that Jan Plummer builds.  Aside from being matched for a specific headphone - gain as well as impedance (it's amazing that he takes the time to do this for his customers), the $100 impedance match boxes come in two flavors - one for use with balanced headphones and one for use with single-ended (TRS) cabling.  Pick one or the other or both, but don't try to use an adapter to get from the balanced impedance match to a headphone with single-ended cabling, _because... _the MG3's speaker terminals do not have a shared ground.
  
 Mike


----------



## Poladise

zilch0md said:


> The impedance match delivers around 5 Watts per channel into the 50-Ohm LCD-2


 
  
 For 32W @ 8ohm I would expect about 5W @ 50ohm (with no adapter). The impedance adapter adds more resistance doesn't it? so shouldn't the power less than 5W @ 50ohm?


----------



## zilch0md

poladise said:


> For 32W @ 8ohm I would expect about 5W @ 50ohm (with no adapter). The impedance adapter adds more resistance doesn't it? so shouldn't the power less than 5W @ 50ohm?


 
  
 If the output is linear across various impedances, you're probably right.  I don't know what the resistor values are, but looking inside the "magic box," each channel has two resistors, arranged end-to-end, together bridging the binding posts of that channel, and a third resistor in series, coming off the junction of those end-to-end resistors, for the (+) conductor of the headphone cable.  (If that makes any sense...)
  
 Mike


----------



## panersche

My apologies if I'm double posting. But I'm also very interested in the audeze line up. But really uncertain about the type of amp it would qualify to its potential. I see a lot of great reviews on headphone amps. But they are solely dedicated to headphone amps only. I'm looking at some of the peachtree products. As I can use them to power my speakers as well as headphones. Im looking at the Schitt and Woo but they're dedicated to headphones only. Would audio quality depreciate or not being able to reach to its max potential if played on a two channel amp? 

Sorry for the long post any input would highly be appreciated thanks


----------



## preproman

panersche said:


> My apologies if I'm double posting. But I'm also very interested in the audeze line up. But really uncertain about the type of amp it would qualify to its potential. I see a lot of great reviews on headphone amps. But they are solely dedicated to headphone amps only. I'm looking at some of the peachtree products. As I can use them to power my speakers as well as headphones. Im looking at the Schitt and Woo but they're dedicated to headphones only. Would audio quality depreciate or not being able to reach to its max potential if played on a two channel amp?
> 
> Sorry for the long post any input would highly be appreciated thanks


 
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/649107/speaker-amps-for-headphones


----------



## DarKen23

panersche said:


> My apologies if I'm double posting. But I'm also very interested in the audeze line up. But really uncertain about the type of amp it would qualify to its potential. I see a lot of great reviews on headphone amps. But they are solely dedicated to headphone amps only. I'm looking at some of the peachtree products. As I can use them to power my speakers as well as headphones.* Im looking at the Schitt and Woo but they're dedicated to headphones only*. Would audio quality depreciate or not being able to reach to its max potential if played on a two channel amp?
> 
> Sorry for the long post any input would highly be appreciated thanks


Not really. There are a number of headphone amplifiers that offer a pre for speakers, schiit is one of them.


----------



## DefQon

And the LCD2/LCD3 don't need speaker amps to sound good period.


----------



## paradoxper

defqon said:


> And the LCD2/LCD3 don't need speaker amps to sound good period.


 
 Yup, recommending speaker amps for the Audez'es is pretty stupid.


----------



## DefQon

paradoxper said:


> Yup, recommending speaker amps for the Audez'es *is pretty stupid.*


 
  
 Yeah it seems stupid is the common trend in posts lately on head-fi.


----------



## paradoxper

defqon said:


> Yeah it seems stupid is the common trend in posts lately on head-fi.


 
 And it sucks!


----------



## DefQon

paradoxper said:


> And it sucks!


 
 Tell me about it.


----------



## jackwess

defqon said:


> Yeah it seems stupid is the common trend in posts lately on head-fi.


 
  
 We should ditch headphone amps then?


----------



## DefQon

jackwess said:


> We should ditch headphone amps then?


 
 Yeah we should and get one of these badasses to drive headphones.


----------



## dotrunghieu

nice amp


----------



## iso300and8

Stunning wow...


----------



## angelsblood

gonna pull the trigger on the Soloist SL for my LCD 2, any objections?


----------



## philo50

angelsblood said:


> gonna pull the trigger on the Soloist SL for my LCD 2, any objections?


 
 I loved the Soloist when I owned it......


----------



## angelsblood

philo50 said:


> I loved the Soloist when I owned it......


 
  
 its just here is a second hand V200 and full size Soloist... around the same price as a new Soloist SL, just considering!


----------



## Zashoomin

angelsblood said:


> its just here is a second hand V200 and full size Soloist... around the same price as a new Soloist SL, just considering!


 
 Personally I always buy used whenever I can especially on headfi because all the members here take impeccable care of the gear so usually its like new.  also it saves me a lot of money and when I resell to upgrade to newer gear I take a small loss on it rather than a large one. Some people though just prefer to buy new.  It is up to you.  So far 0 problems with buying and selling gear here.


----------



## angelsblood

zashoomin said:


> Personally I always buy used whenever I can especially on headfi because all the members here take impeccable care of the gear so usually its like new.  also it saves me a lot of money and when I resell to upgrade to newer gear I take a small loss on it rather than a large one. Some people though just prefer to buy new.  It is up to you.  So far 0 problems with buying and selling gear here.


 
  
 Good point, i guess i need to take a leap, as i always get paranoid buying second hand... (even cars i buy brand new, even though its very stupid to do so, especially in the UK).
  
 Thing is, I heard Soloist SL is basically the Soloist with less power and no pre out, sound wise is same in terms of signature. Nobody seems to talk about V200 nowadays XD


----------



## Chris_Himself

angelsblood said:


> gonna pull the trigger on the Soloist SL for my LCD 2, any objections?


 
  
 9 thumbs up. Excellent choice.


----------



## iso300and8

How does the Soloist SL compare to the Lyr with good tubes?


----------



## Chris_Himself

iso300and8 said:


> How does the Soloist SL compare to the Lyr with good tubes?


 
  
 Soloist is more lively than the Lyr. Not saying the Lyr isn't good, it's just the Soloist is one of my favorite single-ended amps on the block.


----------



## iso300and8

chris_himself said:


> Soloist is more lively than the Lyr. Not saying the Lyr isn't good, it's just the Soloist is one of my favorite single-ended amps on the block.


 
 Oh right. Even when the Lyr has good tubes?


----------



## Chris_Himself

iso300and8 said:


> Oh right. Even when the Lyr has good tubes?


 
  
 Soloist takes it for me. I like the signature more just because I'm not a huge fan of tubes one way or another. I'll explain why:
  
 Choice is a prison for me and I could never sleep knowing there are a set of tubes I haven't auditioned yet and that was my problem so thats why I was like FUGGIT and ordered the Mjolnir haha..


----------



## iso300and8

chris_himself said:


> Soloist takes it for me. I like the signature more just because I'm not a huge fan of tubes one way or another. I'll explain why:
> 
> Choice is a prison for me and I could never sleep knowing there are a set of tubes I haven't auditioned yet and that was my problem so thats why I was like FUGGIT and ordered the Mjolnir haha..


 
 Haha! I'm kind of like me haha. I love collecting things like knives, cards and limited edition stuffs and the thought of there being more out there just drives me insane... If I upgrade my Lyr to the Soloist, will I hear a difference?


----------



## NZheadcase

You will definitely hear a difference.  I appreciate the LCD 2 more on the Soloist vs Lyr (with stock tubes). There are improvements, and then there are differences. I can't say there is a huge gap in sq, but there is a difference enough for you to notice and decide which suits your preferences best.

What dac will you be pairing with it?


----------



## NinjaHamster

The Lyr with the right tubes is indeed a beautiful thing.


----------



## iso300and8

The Bifrost UBER with USB. I feel like the Soloist SL with the Bifros would be a great combo and wouldn't mind selling off my Lyr for it.


----------



## NZheadcase

Hmmmm...I have no experience with the SL specifically, but if it is anything like the full sized soloist, it will be a good match. Don't sell off your Lyr just yet though. It is always adviseable to let gear grow on you before making a decision on which stays and which goes. Sellers remorse is worse than buyer's remorse imho.


----------



## iso300and8

Oh right thanks, i still haven't tube rolled with my Lyr yet too.
  
 Also, what is a pre amp? The normal Soloist has a preamp where the SL doesn't...


----------



## NinjaHamster

iso300and8 said:


> Oh right thanks, i still haven't tube rolled with my Lyr yet too.
> 
> Also, what is a pre amp? The normal Soloist has a preamp where the SL doesn't...


 
 DO roll your Lyr - it scales very well with better tubes.  A pre-amplifier allows you to control the volume of a power amplifier.


----------



## iso300and8

ninjahamster said:


> DO roll your Lyr - it scales very well with better tubes.  A pre-amplifier allows you to control the volume of a power amplifier.


 
  
 Is a preamp really worth it? Which tubes should I roll? People say there are many tubes that scale well with the Lyr but man, they're all so rare and expensive... I saw some Laradiotechnique tubes made in holland going for $400 on ebay... And the triple micas go for over $500 on ebay and they're really rare although most are NOS. Thats more than the amp itself so might as well go with the Soloist and plus people say its a minor difference. I am running Matsu****a 6922's with my Lyr and I heard no difference between them and the stock tubes and these tubes cost me $80 for the pair so... Maybe my ears aren't trained enough to hear the differences. Hearing no difference between the tubes makes me a bit skeptical about buying more tubes. AND, they only last 5,000 - 10,000 hours where other amps last pretty much forever.


----------



## NinjaHamster

iso300and8 said:


> Is a preamp really worth it? Which tubes should I roll? People say there are many tubes that scale well with the Lyr but man, they're all so rare and expensive... I saw some Laradiotechnique tubes made in holland going for $400 on ebay... And the triple micas go for over $500 on ebay and they're really rare although most are NOS. Thats more than the amp itself so might as well go with the Soloist and plus people say its a minor difference. I am running Matsu****a 6922's with my Lyr and I heard no difference between them and the stock tubes and these tubes cost me $80 for the pair so... Maybe my ears aren't trained enough to hear the differences. Hearing no difference between the tubes makes me a bit skeptical about buying more tubes. AND, they only last 5,000 - 10,000 hours where other amps last pretty much forever.


 
 If you needed a preamplifier, you would know you needed a preamplifier, so it is probably not worth anything to you (the Lyr can be used as a preamplifier anyway).  The Matsu tubes are meant to be OK, so if you hear no difference between them and the stock tubes, then maybe it is also not worth rolling in other tubes - though if you do, and want some cheaper recommendations, the Amperex Bugle Boys and Orange Globes in 6DJ8 are both good - and will cost you about $80 per pair on eBay.


----------



## iso300and8

Yeah I heard the Bugle Boys with D getters were great and I only bought the 6922s because they were from tube monger which I love purchasing from. They didn't have the orange globes at the time which were meant to be on par with the 6922s. Thanks for the great info, I may look to upgrade to the Soloist in the next couple of months, hopefully early 2014. Will the Bifrost Uber suffice with the Soloist?


----------



## DefQon

Due to the design of the Lyr tube rolling on it is not as substantial as pure tube amps. The Amperex BB's or Orange Globes are as good as you can get for the average decent asking prices around.


----------



## Peti

Allow me to join in the conversation. Would someone be so kind to conclude the ruling opinion about the Lyr + Byfrost combo for LCD-2 or should I go through the nearly 700 pages of this thread? This combination of LCD-2 + Lyr + Byfrost tickles my interest for quite a while and it seems that will be next investment. If it counts, my source is a laptop with Foobar and Jetaudio, and I listen 80% Metal, like Manowar, Savatage, Vicious Rumors, Metal Church, Omen, and NWOBHM all lossless with numerous SHM, Blu-Spec, 24/96, 24/192 rips.
  
 So LCD-2 + Lyr + Byfrost?


----------



## Dubstep Girl

the orange globes (regular and A-frame variants) as well as the bugle boys are very nice.....
  
 i've heard them on the Lyr with the LCD-2 and enjoyed the combination. i also used them with my WA2 and really liked how they sounded over other 6922 tube types. im sure the rarer 6922 tubes sound alot better, but the orange globe and bugle boys are great for the price.


----------



## kothganesh

peti said:


> Allow me to join in the conversation. Would someone be so kind to conclude the ruling opinion about the Lyr + Byfrost combo for LCD-2 or should I go through the nearly 700 pages of this thread? This combination of LCD-2 + Lyr + Byfrost tickles my interest for quite a while and it seems that will be next investment. If it counts, my source is a laptop with Foobar and Jetaudio, and I listen 80% Metal, like Manowar, Savatage, Vicious Rumors, Metal Church, Omen, and NWOBHM all lossless with numerous SHM, Blu-Spec, 24/96, 24/192 rips.
> 
> So LCD-2 + Lyr + Byfrost?


 
 My vote....a resounding yes for the combo...make sure to have the Amperex tubes ...enjoy


----------



## Barra

Why isn't anyone talking about pairing with the Mjolnir? Has it gone out of favor?


----------



## Zashoomin

barra said:


> Why isn't anyone talking about pairing with the Mjolnir? Has it gone out of favor?


 
 Read the past 400 pages it basically only talks about the MJ.  There are plenty of wonderful combos...some better than others but ultimately if you like the sound who cares what other people think.  To answer your questions no it is not out of flavor and it has been talked about to death here I think.


----------



## Barra

zashoomin said:


> barra said:
> 
> 
> > Why isn't anyone talking about pairing with the Mjolnir? Has it gone out of favor?
> ...




Cool, I'm looking at buying one and started noticing that it seldom is mentioned in current posts. It is taking forever to read all the past posts in all the relevant threads.


----------



## Peti

barra said:


> Why isn't anyone talking about pairing with the Mjolnir? Has it gone out of favor?


 

 Well, we can talk about it...my budget for amp and/or DAC is about 700$. So would I be better off with the Mjolnir alone or Lyr+Byfrost?


----------



## NinjaHamster

peti said:


> Well, we can talk about it...my budget for amp and/or DAC is about 700$. So would I be better off with the Mjolnir alone or Lyr+Byfrost?


 
 What DAC would you use if you got the Mjolnir ?  If you would be using a soundcard then, good as the Mjolnir is, DEFINITELY the Bifrost/Lyr combo ... the Lyr is amazing for the money - just get the GE tubes to start with ... then when you have saved up a little, buy a pair of Amperex tubes - Early Bugle Boys and Early Orange Globes are best ... but the Orange Globe "A-Frames" are also nice ... there's a tube rolling thread you can check out when you have a little more money, but for now, the Bifrost/Lyr combo is certainly not "chopped liver" !!


----------



## Peti

ninjahamster said:


> What DAC would you use if you got the Mjolnir ?  If you would be using a soundcard then, good as the Mjolnir is, DEFINITELY the Bifrost/Lyr combo ... the Lyr is amazing for the money - just get the GE tubes to start with ... then when you have saved up a little, buy a pair of Amperex tubes - Early Bugle Boys and Early Orange Globes are best ... but the Orange Globe "A-Frames" are also nice ... there's a tube rolling thread you can check out when you have a little more money, but for now, the Bifrost/Lyr combo is certainly not "chopped liver" !!


 

 Yep, that's the point I don't have a DAC unless my Fiio X3 does count as a DAC with the Mjolnir...? But I doubt it'd be a viable combination. So I just go for the Lyr+Bydrost combo instead of Mjolnir alone.
  
 Thanks for the tube suggestions kothganesh and NinjaHamster, I have yet to dig deeper in that issue. By the by, the factory tubes of the Lyr are that..."minimal" to those what you listed above? But I don't want to get off topic.


----------



## kothganesh

peti said:


> Yep, that's the point I don't have a DAC unless my Fiio X3 does count as a DAC with the Mjolnir...? But I doubt it'd be a viable combination. So I just go for the Lyr+Bydrost combo instead of Mjolnir alone.
> 
> Thanks for the tube suggestions kothganesh and NinjaHamster, I have yet to dig deeper in that issue. By the by, the factory tubes of the Lyr are that..."minimal" to those what you listed above? But I don't want to get off topic.



Glad to assist. I quickly got off the stock tubes and following the recommendations in the tube rolling thread ( a must read ) I settled on the Amperex.


----------



## Stil

Hello,
  
 I'm new here (Just joined, but have been reading here a while).  I must say, it is very interesting reading about some equipment I haven't heard about before.   I have a question though.  I just recently got a LCD-2.2 and came across this thread and read the past 50 pages or so.   I also have a NAD D1050 as a DAC before I got the LCD.  While listening is very pleasant with this dac/amp combo, I would like get more out of the cans.  When I auditioned them at the store, they were hooked up to Mcintosh D100 through its headphone amp and liked the sound there.  Would it be ok to get an Amp and hook it up to the NAD Dac?  It does have balanced pre-outs on the back, would it be advisable to use those for the interconnects rather than the RCA pre-outs?
  
 Reading the threads, I was thinking of picking up the Schiit Mjolnir and a set of cables, but that might be a few months away.  I would probably just use the NAD's built in Headphone amp for now.  Not sure if anyone has heard things through this DAC yet, so I don't know how it compares to other DACs in the price range.  The store only said that it sounded like NAD's house sound, if that means anything.
  
 Anyways, any answers would be appreciated.
  
 Thanks


----------



## Eugguy

What is the best option between the Lyr vs the Asgard2?

 I would love as much bass presence with volume as possible.


----------



## Zashoomin

eugguy said:


> What is the best option between the Lyr vs the Asgard2?
> 
> I would love as much bass presence with volume as possible.


 
 I wouldn't worry about volume.  Both will drive them to high volumes but the Lyr will be a bit better overall.  A lot better if you roll in the correct tubes. You can change the base response as you like depending on the tubes.


----------



## Chris_Himself

eugguy said:


> What is the best option between the Lyr vs the Asgard2?
> 
> I would love as much bass presence with volume as possible.


 
  
 Asgard2 is probably for the most part going to serve you as well. The Lyr is just a good deal more powerful for when you're pushing serious bsness loads. The Lyr will have more bass since tubes open the option of having a warmer sound signature with a deeper bottom end with your cans depending on how you run your stuff.


----------



## Eugguy

Thank You for the replies. I am between the Lyr and the Asgard2. Is the difference in sound noticeable? I am more heavily towards the Asgard2 at the moment. Using the Asgard2 will I be able to take full advantage of what a headphone like the LCD2 has to offer? The LCD2 says to power with at least 1 watt? The Asgard has 1 watt, the Lyr has 4 watts?

 Right now I am running the headphone from a DJ Mixer (Allen & Heath Xone 92)  that states it uses a 1 Watt chip...I don't think I am getting the most out of my headphone from this...
  
 I am planning on connecting the headphone output of my mixer to the input of the (lyr or asgard2)...


----------



## Chris_Himself

eugguy said:


> Thank You for the replies. I am between the Lyr and the Asgard2. Is the difference in sound noticeable? I am more heavily towards the Asgard2 at the moment. Using the Asgard2 will I be able to take full advantage of what a headphone like the LCD2 has to offer? The LCD2 says to power with at least 1 watt? The Asgard has 1 watt, the Lyr has 4 watts?
> 
> Right now I am running the headphone from a DJ Mixer (Allen & Heath Xone 92)  that states it uses a 1 Watt chip...I don't think I am getting the most out of my headphone from this...
> 
> I am planning on connecting the headphone output of my mixer to the input of the (lyr or asgard2)...


 
  
 Asgard good. Lyr better. If $200 isn't that big of a deal for you, always take Lyr. I'm just trying to appeal to your sensible side by telling you that Asgard will indeed do the job.


----------



## Joong

Hi guys,
I just just bought phones, and listened to them.
My Lcd-2.2 with Lyr with Siemens seems inferior to He-5Le.
I did not read through all this long thread, but Lcd with Lyr seem not very good.
I will try with different tubes, and will post the review.


----------



## paradoxper

chris_himself said:


> Asgard good. Lyr better. If $200 isn't that big of a deal for you, always take Lyr. I'm just trying to appeal to your sensible side by telling you that Asgard will indeed do the job.


 
 Plus $ for tubes.


----------



## Eugguy

Lyr seems to be 50/50 on reviews....some say it matches well...others say it doesn't match at all...I am going for a warmer sound, as much bass impact, slam as possible...obviously with quality. So far vs the Asgard2, the Lyr is said to have more impact and warmth...I have been running most of my mid-fi and iems through a JDS C421...I think having an amp such as the Lyr may just be an upgrade for all my headphones...minus the Iems...


----------



## vkalia

Well, I am using an Audio-GD SA10SE, and I think it pairs really, really well, as far as solid state goes.


----------



## NinjaHamster

eugguy said:


> Lyr seems to be 50/50 on reviews....some say it matches well...others say it doesn't match at all...I am going for a warmer sound, as much bass impact, slam as possible...obviously with quality. So far vs the Asgard2, the Lyr is said to have more impact and warmth...I have been running most of my mid-fi and iems through a JDS C421...I think having an amp such as the Lyr may just be an upgrade for all my headphones...minus the Iems...


 
 50/50 ?  Where are you finding all these people who say the Lyr doesn't match up with the LCD-2 ??  It is generally regarded as a great combination, and out of the responses you have received directly to your question, 3 people have said the Lyr is better (but more expensive) and one person has said it is not a good combo ... that makes a 75/25 % split towards the Lyr in direct response to your question ... and across the whole of Head-Fi's history, there are probably less than 10 people who don't think the Lyr and the LCD-2's are a good match.  50/50 on reviews indeed !!


----------



## Joong

The ultimate solution is a current mode amplifier like Questyle or Bakoon to prevent the phase distortion for signal band.
 Speaker motor is driven not by voltage but current that generates magnetic flux to produce acoustic pressure.
 But expensive 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.


----------



## Steve Eddy

joong said:


> The ultimate solution is a current mode amplifier like Questyle or Bakoon to prevent the phase distortion for signal band.
> Speaker motor is driven not by voltage but current that generates magnetic flux to produce acoustic pressure.
> But expensive :mad: .




What phase distortion are you referring to exactly?

And voltage produces magnetic flux as well. The only difference is that the driver sees a much higher source impedance, which can cause changes in frequency response depending on the driver. Orthos are pretty tolerant, but dynamics can have some problems.

se


----------



## Joong

Signal = voltage in voltage based amps
 Signal = current in current mode amps.
  
 When voltage amps drive HP, current is generated by V=IZ where Z= impedenace.
 Current is function of voltage with respect to phase.
 And magnetic flux is in phase with current, not with voltage.
 Because magnetic flux = H is only function of current. This means that only current generates magnetic flux, and voltage can be generated without any current for example open circuit having maximum voltage but zero current that generates no magnetic flux.
  
 Of course voltage generates magnetic flux in relation to impedance=Z, but a phase amount delay.
  
 Sorry for my adoption of math.
 Especially impedance Z is function of frequency, when it approaches to resonance the phase will delay or advance in 90 degrees.
  
 Because all these relations, voltage amplifier drives by voltage signal and HP responds only to current, so that there is a phase difference between signal generator ( driver) and signal producer (HP) due to impedance that depends on frequency. The higher the frequency, the larger the phase difference between driver (AMP) and driven (HP).


----------



## Steve Eddy

joong said:


> Signal = voltage in voltage based amps
> Signal = current in current mode amps.




Yes, I know.



> When voltage amps drive HP, current is generated by V=IZ where Z= impedenace.




You mean I = V/Z.



> Current is function of voltage with respect to phase.




The phase of what?



> And magnetic flux is in phase with current, not with voltage.




And why does that matter? Whether you drive the headphone from a current source or a voltage source, for a given current through the headphone, you'll have a given voltage across the headphone. I = V/Z, V = IZ. 



> Because magnetic flux = H is only function of current.




Yes, just as voltage is a function of current. 



> Of course voltage generates magnetic flux in relation to impedance=Z, but a phase amount delay.




But the impedance of an ortho, such as the LCD-2, which is what this thread is about, is virtually purely purely resistive. So you may just as well use R instead of Z.



> Especially impedance Z is function of frequency, when it approaches to resonance the phase will delay or advance in 90 degrees.




As I said, the LCD-2sare virtually resistive.

And even if you are talking about a resonant circuit, at resonance, phase is 0 degrees and Z is purely resistive. You only get a 90 degree lead or lag when the load is PURELY reactive, i.e. pure inductance or pure capacitance. When there is any loss, such as resistance, the lead/lag will always be less than 90 degrees.

se


----------



## DefQon

The people that recommended the Lyr with the LCD2's are old new's when there weren't any V100/V200's or the Burson stuff on the market. Things have changed greatly over the past 2 years.


----------



## Joong

The voltage phase is actually signal phase in Voltage based amps.
 The actual HP is a motor that responds only to current.
 This means that original sounds lacks or advances with respect to actually produced sounds.
  
 This phase difference is well related to V=IZ, so that this may not be equal to usual jitter, but there is certainly phase difference between driver and driven.
  
 The LCD-1/2/3 or any orthors, must have inductive to produce or interact with DC field of magnet array.
 There is no conductive trace that have 100% resistive only.
  
 Of course the orthors has much less inductive than dynamic ones, so that orthos requires lots of current than those of dynamic phone, in order to compensate the lack of inductance through which magnetic flux is generated.
  
 I generally agree that for the audio signal band there is not much appreciable inductance as you mentioned.
 However, these crazy headfiers consider that any tiny amount of electric quantity might be controlled by expert like the founder of Bakgoon, for example.
  
 He considers seriously an comfortable in several pico seconds jitter, and he tried to correct it by current mode amps. Amazing!!! He simply had been inspired by that fact that the turn table got several hundred kilograms to prevent the rotational speed variation of the turn table by gaining weight that much. That turn-table example was parallel with modern jitter concept, which pushes the DAC with superior jitter control by considerable effort.
 I am also one among them crazy people.
  
 As you mentioned, the phase difference between voltage based amps and HP will be negligible when we consider very tiny amount inductance. But when we consider signal as voltage, and sound as current of magnetic flux; there is jitter like action is always there.
  
 That is something like the piston motion as resistive component of impedace, whereas crank acts as jittering reactive comp.
 Therefore due to the length of piston rod ( resistive) much longer than the crank ( reactive) there is no way v-amp signal delaying or advancing for 90 degree, but very tiny amount that bothers headfiers here.


----------



## Steve Eddy

joong said:


> I am also one among them crazy people.




Then I'll not waste my time trying to discuss the physics with you.

se


----------



## Joong

The audiophiles' concerns might not be measured by physics, but by the limit of human brain's sensing capability.
Therefore there is always some argue.
Nice talking was it.


----------



## Steve Eddy

Then don't bring any physics into the discussion. And don't speak of the brain's sensing capability unless you have something to back it up other than some audiophile said so.

se


----------



## paradoxper

Steve Eddy takin' 'em to school, again.


----------



## NinjaHamster

steve eddy said:


> Then don't bring any physics into the discussion.


 
  
 Zing !!  
  
 Although I thought you were going to say something a little more insulting when you started with "And don't speak of the brain's sensing capability unless you have ...".  Actually, almost feel a little let down now that I think about it ...


----------



## Steve Eddy

ninjahamster said:


> Zing !!
> 
> Although I thought you were going to say something a little more insulting when you started with "And don't speak of the brain's sensing capability unless you have ...".  Actually, almost feel a little let down now that I think about it ...


 
  
 Sorry to have let you down. But I'd like to think you'd feel even more let down if I got myself banned. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 se


----------



## DrNope

Guessing, but I'd assume that headphones uses some kind of equalizing filter at the input to tweak the signature. That filter might not behave as intended if you replace the voltage driver with a current driver. In normal filters for instance the first pole will be removed by doing this.


----------



## Steve Eddy

drnope said:


> Guessing, but I'd assume that headphones uses some kind of equalizing filter at the input to tweak the signature. That filter might not behave as intended if you replace the voltage driver with a current driver. In normal filters for instance the first pole will be removed by doing this.




I'm not aware of any headphones that have any response shaping equalization built into them. I'm pretty sure there's probably something out there that does, but everything I've seen has the driver driven directly.

Nor am I aware of any loudspeaker or headphone driver that's designed to be driven by a current source. Everything assumes it will be driven by a voltage source.

If you look at the impedance plot of a typical dynamic driver, whether loudspeaker or headphone, you'll see that it peaks at the driver's resonant frequency. This is where the driver is working most efficiently compared to above and below this frequency. And as was mentioned previously, it's current through the voice coil that produces the magnetic field that interacts with the driver's magnets and causes the diaphragm to move.

So now when you drive it with a voltage source, because Ohm's Law says that current is equal to voltage divided by impedance, and since impedance is highest at the resonant frequency, there will be less current flowing in the voice coil at that frequency. Which makes sense because where it's most efficient is where you need less power to get the same amount of output.

But drive that same driver from a current source, and everything gets turned upside down. Because a current source wants to drive the same amount of current through the load regardless of the impedance, when you get to the peak of the impedance curve, which again is where the driver is most efficient, there will be much more current flowing through the voice coil compared to driving it with a voltage source and as a consequence, the output of the driver will be much greater. It's the same as if you used a voltage source and used EQ to give it a peak in the response at the resonant frequency.

In other words, if you start out with a driver that has a flat response when driven from a voltage source, as you transition to a current source, the frequency response starts to look like the impedance curve with a peak at the resonant frequency (as well as at high frequencies where the voice coil inductance starts coming into play). When Nelson Pass began experimenting with current source amplifiers to drive single driver loudspeakers, he had to add networks to compensate for this and avoid peaks in the low frequency response.

This isn't an issue with orthos though due to their flat impedance. But with dynamic drivers, they're designed to be driven from a voltage source.

se


----------



## goldendarko

I'm looking for a new headphone amp for my LCD 2.2's, just wondering what some of the best headphone amps are in the following price ranges:

$500-$1000
$1000-$1500
$1500-$2000

Three of the ones I am considering in each range are the Woo Audio WA7 Fireflies, Schiit M & G combo & Burson Conductor. what do you guys think is the best bet for the LCD-2 in those price ranges?


----------



## barid

goldendarko said:


> I'm looking for a new headphone amp for my LCD 2.2's, just wondering what some of the best headphone amps are in the following price ranges:
> 
> $500-$1000
> $1000-$1500
> ...




Sounded good from my burson soloist. Can probably find one for around $700 on the FS forums. I think those are still en vogue these days. 

Also sounds good from my dacmini.


----------



## Chris_Himself

goldendarko said:


> I'm looking for a new headphone amp for my LCD 2.2's, just wondering what some of the best headphone amps are in the following price ranges:
> 
> $500-$1000
> $1000-$1500
> ...


 
  
 1. Audio GD NFB10.33
 2. Burson Soloist, Violectric V200, Schiit Mjolnir
 3. I don't have an answer for #3 because I don't believe amps should cost that much.


----------



## kothganesh

chris_himself said:


> 1. Audio GD NFB10.33
> 2. Burson Soloist, Violectric V200, Schiit Mjolnir
> 3. I don't have an answer for #3 because I don't believe amps should cost that much.




Wait a minute. The Mjolnir costs like $ 750. Why is it in bucket 2 unless I'm missing something ?


----------



## Chris_Himself

kothganesh said:


> Wait a minute. The Mjolnir costs like $ 750. Why is it in bucket 2 unless I'm missing something ?


 
  
 Close enough.. you can afford something that costs less, but not something that costs more, would you rather I put it in the first category?


----------



## jaywillin

chris_himself said:


> 1. Audio GD NFB10.33
> 2. Burson Soloist, Violectric V200, Schiit Mjolnir
> 3. I don't have an answer for #3 because I don't believe amps should cost that much.


 

 i currently have the soloist, but i've recently aqired an lcd2, and i'm curious about going balanced,  but my headphone amp is also my preamp for my psb ps1's
 i guess i'd need to get monitors with balanced inputs then ??


----------



## Rawajakaj

I have been using the Centrance DACmini for the past 3 months.  Also using the Apple TV to connect my IPAD wirelessly to the DACmini.  Did some comparisons with the Burson Conductor, which sounded slightly more powerful in the bass and perhaps a bit more resolved in the high frequencies, but had problems working with the Apple TV dropping the signal.   In the end I thought the price/sound ratio of the DACmini was great and have not looked back.


----------



## kothganesh

chris_himself said:


> Close enough.. you can afford something that costs less, but not something that costs more, would you rather I put it in the first category?


 
 I must misunderstand. I thought you were listing amps by cost ....Hence the bucket 1, 2 etc. Trust I am making myself clearer ?


----------



## barid

rawajakaj said:


> I have been using the Centrance DACmini for the past 3 months.  Also using the Apple TV to connect my IPAD wirelessly to the DACmini.  Did some comparisons with the Burson Conductor, which sounded slightly more powerful in the bass and perhaps a bit more resolved in the high frequencies, but had problems working with the Apple TV dropping the signal.   In the end I thought the price/sound ratio of the DACmini was great and have not looked back.


 
  
 I had a similar situation.  Had the Soloist paired with the DA160 and moved to the DACmini PX because I needed to power some passive monitors and didn't have room for a separate power amp.  There were not a whole lot of difference between the 2 setups initially so I ended up staying with the DACmini.  However I do feel the DACmini is a bit harsher up top compared to the Soloist/DA160 combo, and also sounds a tad flatter (or maybe just more forward where the Soloist was relaxed).  These differences were very minor and I opted to the utility of the DACmini in the end.


----------



## jaywillin

friday i took delivery of the wadia 121 decoding computer, it is a great dac/amp/pre
 i was amazed how well it drives the lcd2's,and it handles the grado rs1i great too.
 and at retail prices, its cheaper than my soloist/uberfrost combo
 though maybe not as flexible


----------



## angelsblood

jaywillin said:


> friday i took delivery of the wadia 121 decoding computer, it is a great dac/amp/pre
> i was amazed how well it drives the lcd2's,and it handles the grado rs1i great too.
> and at retail prices, its cheaper than my soloist/uberfrost combo
> though maybe not as flexible


 
  
 the Wadia 121 looks awesome all in one solution! Did you use the headphone out from it? How does it compare to the Soloist?


----------



## jaywillin

angelsblood said:


> the Wadia 121 looks awesome all in one solution! Did you use the headphone out from it? How does it compare to the Soloist?


 

 the headphone amp section surprised me more than just the dac section, i expected the dac to be great, its a wadia,
 its every bit as good, if not better, than the soloist, i've used it with the lcd2, and my rs1i, two different loads
 and both sound great, and the headphone out can be adjusted to particular headphones, i haven't gotten around to
 that yet.
 the main difference i can hear when going directly between the soloist, and directly into the wadia, directly into the wadia seems clearer
 which kinda makes sense, no extra cable(audioquest big sur) in between
  
 there was some talk of the 121 being noisy when it came out, i've noticed no noise at any level with either headphone
 now saying all that, the soloist bifrost combo is great too, plus there's the benefit of being separates if you change gear a lot,
 i haven't even hooked up my powered speakers(psb ps1) to it yet, i'll do that today,


----------



## goldendarko

What kind of power does the Wadia 121 put out? I may look into that to power my LCD-2's if that's a good combo?


----------



## jaywillin

goldendarko said:


> What kind of power does the Wadia 121 put out? I may look into that to power my LCD-2's if that's a good combo?


 

 actual numbers, not sure, there's a review on audiostream, i'd i have to go back and look,
 i know there is a high gain, and low gain setting
 it drives my lcd's higher than i can listen to


----------



## goldendarko

Ok thanks I will check that out. Some of the other options I am considering are a Schiit Lyr/Bifrost combo and a Burson Conductor. Do you think it compares favorably to those for use with the LCD-2?


----------



## jaywillin

goldendarko said:


> Ok thanks I will check that out. Some of the other options I am considering are a Schiit Lyr/Bifrost combo and a Burson Conductor. Do you think it compares favorably to those for use with the LCD-2?


 

 i had the lyr bifrost combo when i first got the lcd's , it seemed the base was a little loose, so i got the soloist, but now, i think i just wasn't used to the lcd's amount and type of base,
 the lyr is supposed to be a good match.
 the soloist is very good with the lcd's imo
 i'm not sure as to the conductor, but its basically a soloist with a dac i believe


----------



## goldendarko

Yeah, im kind of hoping to get an all in one combo (DAC & HP Amp), but the Lyr/Bifrost is nearly half the price of the Conductor so I'm kind of leaning that way for my LCD-2's right now.


----------



## jaywillin

goldendarko said:


> Yeah, im kind of hoping to get an all in one combo (DAC & HP Amp), but the Lyr/Bifrost is nearly half the price of the Conductor so I'm kind of leaning that way for my LCD-2's right now.


 

 yeah, the wadia is killer, i got it for $900, it was todd the vinyl junkies deal of the day, i've seen used around $1000, its like $1299, it does sound killer


----------



## goldendarko

Yeah I currently see a demo version for sale on Music Direct for $1000, about $300 off retail. If it's a better option than the Lyr/Bifrost I might just pick this thing up as it is right around the same price, and what I am looking to spend. The Burson Conductor is just too far out of my price range right now @ $1850.


----------



## jaywillin

goldendarko said:


> Yeah I currently see a demo version for sale on Music Direct for $1000, about $300 off retail. If it's a better option than the Lyr/Bifrost I might just pick this thing up as it is right around the same price, and what I am looking to spend. The Burson Conductor is just too far out of my price range right now @ $1850.


 

 no knobs or buttons on it, don't loose the remote !!


----------



## goldendarko

Haha, thanks for the advice.


----------



## jaywillin

goldendarko said:


> Haha, thanks for the advice.


 

 if you get it, let us know how you like it


----------



## goldendarko

Will do, still might go with the Lyr/Bifrost, gotta give it some more thought


----------



## jaywillin

goldendarko said:


> Will do, still might go with the Lyr/Bifrost, gotta give it some more thought


 

 i may go back to the lyr/ bifrost, you have power to spare, flexibility , and i'm probably going to let the lcd's go, i love grado's, and i want a gs1000i,  so, i'm always changing it seems


----------



## goldendarko

Yeah I really want those 6 watts too! Then I can drive anything I may plan on getting in the future (HD800's, T1's, GS1000's)


----------



## trojan2900

A Cayin HA-1A gets my vote. Sounds splendid with a wide range of headphones and IEM's. The Audeze LCD 2 is no exception.


----------



## jaywillin

goldendarko said:


> Yeah I really want those 6 watts too! Then I can drive anything I may plan on getting in the future (HD800's, T1's, GS1000's)


 

 i got my 6 watts back ! soloist for sale !! lol


----------



## jackwess

jaywillin said:


> i got my 6 watts back ! soloist for sale !! lol


 
  
 Power is not everything mate


----------



## jaywillin

jackwess said:


> Power is not everything mate



Oh I know, I just regretted selling my first lyr, so I was happy to have one again


----------



## jackwess

jaywillin said:


> Oh I know, I just regretted selling my first lyr, so I was happy to have one again


 
  
 Yeah, i know the feeling. You can have both 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I'm planning to add a tubey amp on my rig, and wait for a good deal on a LCD2


----------



## goldendarko

I ended up pulling the trigger on a Burson Conductor that I scored for $1250 used! Will post impressions soon.


----------



## NZheadcase

goldendarko said:


> I ended up pulling the trigger on a Burson Conductor that I scored for $1250 used! Will post impressions soon.




That is a pretty good score! Congrats.


----------



## goldendarko

Just got my Conductor today (1 day after ordering it too). Sounds amazing so far, way better than my Peachtree Audio NovaPre's headphone output. Much better bass control, really separates the different ranges better as well. Excellent PRaT, this is the best sound quality I've ever heard, though I'm still fairly new to the Hi-Fi world, this amp is absolutely sumptous with my Audeze LCD-2.2's. I am literally scooping my jaw off the floor as I write this....


----------



## jackwess

goldendarko said:


> Just got my Conductor today (1 day after ordering it too). Sounds amazing so far, way better than my Peachtree Audio NovaPre's headphone output. Much better bass control, really separates the different ranges better as well. Excellent PRaT, this is the best sound quality I've ever heard, though I'm still fairly new to the Hi-Fi world, this amp is absolutely sumptous with my Audeze LCD-2.2's. I am literally scooping my jaw off the floor as I write this....


 
  
 Congrats for your purchase. 
 LCD-X its also a pretty nice match


----------



## goldendarko

Yeah I had debated between the LCD-2 and the newly released X, but I got the LCD-2 at Black Friday Special for $796. I figured I would use the savings and get a pair of Sennheiser HD800's next to complement different types of music. Love the Audeze sound so far though, I'm very impressed, I feel like I could just listen to these suckers all day


----------



## goldendarko

Here's a pic of the new rig!


----------



## angelsblood

goldendarko said:


> Here's a pic of the new rig!


 
  
 nice, i got similar setup with the soloist, although i didn't like the lcd 2 when i first got it. it has somewhat grown on me now, and have more head time XD
  
 those kef speaker are beautiful, only got the one?


----------



## jaywillin

angelsblood said:


> nice, i got similar setup with the soloist, although i didn't like the lcd 2 when i first got it. it has somewhat grown on me now, and have more head time XD
> 
> those kef speaker are beautiful, only got the one?



I didn't like my LCDs at first either, I was used to grados, its been about a month now, I changed from the lyr to the soloist back to the lyr, It now sounds good with either amp


----------



## goldendarko

Thanks Anglesblood, there's another speaker, just on the other side, 220 watts would be a lot of power for just one speaker 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Yeah I'm still burning both the LCD-2's & the Conductor in right now since they are brand new. Sounds a let better than what I was coming from, Bowers & Wilkins P5's.


----------



## kothganesh

jaywillin said:


> ............................, I changed from the lyr to the soloist back to the lyr, It now sounds good with either amp


 
 I'm glad I am not the only one....I found the Soloist (awesome detail) a little too "lazy" for my tastes...Lyr grabs you by the scruff of the neck and demands your attention...


----------



## goldendarko

Wow, the bass on these things is AMAZING, even before being broken-in. The bass solo by Willie Weeks on Donny Hathaway's "Voices Inside (Everything Is Everything)" was the best sounding bass solo I've ever heard! It just blew my mind


----------



## NZheadcase

> Originally Posted by *goldendarko* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 That's a nice looking setup. 
  
 Just a little note on the Schiit thing you posted a while back. I love my Lyr and Bifrost. They're not going anywhere, but tbh, they get a fraction of the listening time compared to the Soloist for the LCD 2.2 (and the other cans I have). For the music I listen to, the Soloist is the one I prefer rather than the Lyr with stock tubes. About the only thing better on the Lyr is more quantity down low and just a little more sub bass. The Soloist edges it in everything else. Not done any rolling - I don't want to try - as that may lead down another rabbit hole...or nor yet anyway. 
  
 The Soloist is also great with the T1, which I recall you were interested in.


----------



## goldendarko

nzheadcase said:


> That's a nice looking setup.
> 
> Just a little note on the Schiit thing you posted a while back. I love my Lyr and Bifrost. They're not going anywhere, but tbh, they get a fraction of the listening time compared to the Soloist for the LCD 2.2 (and the other cans I have). For the music I listen to, the Soloist is the one I prefer rather than the Lyr with stock tubes. About the only thing better on the Lyr is more quantity down low and just a little more sub bass. The Soloist edges it in everything else. Not done any rolling - I don't want to try - as that may lead down another rabbit hole...or nor yet anyway.
> 
> The Soloist is also great with the T1, which I recall you were interested in.


 

 Not having hear the Lyr/Bifrost I can't really comment or compare, but I definately don't find the Conductor to be light in the bass department. It is clean, fast and doesn't overpower the midrange or the treble, just the way I like it.


----------



## Zashoomin

goldendarko said:


> Not having hear the Lyr/Bifrost I can't really comment or compare, but I definately don't find the Conductor to be light in the bass department. It is clean, fast and doesn't overpower the midrange or the treble, just the way I like it.


 
 honestly you can't say much about the Lyr because depending on the tubes it can change the sound.


----------



## goldendarko

yeah that's the main reason I went with the Conductor instead of the Lyr/Bifrost (the other reason being I wanted an all-in-one unit). I feel like if I got into tube rolling it would just be a rabbit hole and I would always be tinkering with it, I prefer equipment that I can just plug in and leave alone.


----------



## Zashoomin

goldendarko said:


> yeah that's the main reason I went with the Conductor instead of the Lyr/Bifrost (the other reason being I wanted an all-in-one unit). I feel like if I got into tube rolling it would just be a rabbit hole and I would always be tinkering with it, I prefer equipment that I can just plug in and leave alone.


 
 Haha thats why I try to stay away from tube gear as well.  Plus solid state just tends to work better with the lcd2 anyway


----------



## formula1

goldendarko said:


> Wow, the bass on these things is AMAZING, even before being broken-in. The bass solo by Willie Weeks on Donny Hathaway's "Voices Inside (Everything Is Everything)" was the best sounding bass solo I've ever heard! It just blew my mind


 
  
 You made a nice investment goldendarko, are you still using the tenor usb receiver?


----------



## trojan2900

I've picked up a Virtue Sensation M901 amp and I want to hook up my Audeze LCD 2's to the speaker posts. I've read this sounds great. I'm not sure of the headphone cable thoough. I'll probably have to get something made so I don't fry the amp and/or the Audeze. Any guidance would be helpful. Thanks.


----------



## goldendarko

formula1 said:


> You made a nice investment goldendarko, are you still using the tenor usb receiver?


 

 Yeah still just using the default USB receiver, is the upgrade worth it? I've had no problems with it so far, think the upgrade was only like $65 though, so would be a pretty affordable upgrade if it's worth it for improved sound quality.


----------



## formula1

goldendarko said:


> Yeah still just using the default USB receiver, is the upgrade worth it? I've had no problems with it so far, think the upgrade was only like $65 though, so would be a pretty affordable upgrade if it's worth it for improved sound quality.


 
  
 It's recommended.
 There are certain areas of the sound quality that are improved, and better compatibility with certain software.


----------



## goldendarko

formula1 said:


> It's recommended.
> There are certain areas of the sound quality that are improved, and better compatibility with certain software.


 
  
 Which software? I am using Songbird on my Windows 7 based PC, have had no problems so far.


----------



## formula1

goldendarko said:


> Which software? I am using Songbird on my Windows 7 based PC, have had no problems so far.


 
  
 I recall some guys having issues with Jplay (Xtream engine) but the latest driver release helped on stability.


----------



## goldendarko

Yeah I've got up to date drivers. No issues so far so I don't see a need to upgrade yet


----------



## formula1

You know? sometimes it's good to forget about technicalities and enjoy the music 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 specially when you like what you're hearing.


----------



## goldendarko

My thoughts exactly


----------



## vkalia

deleted - duplicate


----------



## vkalia

zashoomin said:


> Haha thats why I try to stay away from tube gear as well.  *Plus solid state just tends to work better with the lcd2 anywa*y


 
  
 Eh?  That's news to me.  2 of the best combos for the LCD2 are supposed to be the Alo Pan Am and the Red Wine Audio.   I have the former - and while I dont have the Cavalli, i do have a different 2A3 amp, and can personally vouch for how amazing that sounds.
  
 Let's not just repeat second- and third-hand info and make it into a self-referential truism, please.


----------



## vkalia

also a duplicate - sorry, Safari was acting up


----------



## Zashoomin

vkalia said:


> Eh?  That's news to me.  2 of the best combos for the LCD2 are supposed to be the Alo Pan Am and the Red Wine Audio.   I have the former - and while I dont have the Cavalli, i do have a different 2A3 amp, and can personally vouch for how amazing that sounds.
> 
> Let's not just repeat second- and third-hand info and make it into a self-referential truism, please.


 
 Ok so you dont' have to agree with me but here is what I think.  The ALO Pan Am is good...for portable use.  And RWA is overrated.  I can't say cavalli LG isn't good because it is fantastic but I will say the LAu is better IMHO and it is solid state.  Also the Burson Soloist/Conductor (they are the same amp) Schiit Mjolnir, Beta 22, Vioelectric V200, Head-Amp GS-X MKII (Considered one of the best if not the best pairing)...etc are all solid state and I have heard all of them and can say they all sound fantastic. 
  
 Hey if you like your tube stuff great.  Sound is an opinion.  I mean I love my Bottlehead SEX and it powered my LCD2's and I thought it was amazing so if you like your 2A3 amp great don't let anyone else tell you otherwise but don't tell me that I am dumb and regurgitating information from other people.  No, I just agree with them.  And yes I have listen to every single amp I put on that list.  Also, one last comment. If you look at my profile I also have a Beta 22 and I think it sounds better than my SEX and if you don't know already it is solid state. 
  
 So any other insults I have to take from you?  or are you done?


----------



## barid

They sound good on both solid state and tube to me. But solid state plays better to their strengths imo. If i had to pick id go with a solid state amp.


----------



## goldendarko

barid said:


> They sound good on both solid state and tube to me. But solid state plays better to their strengths imo. If i had to pick id go with a solid state amp.


 

 I would have to agree, sounds much better on my Conductor than they do on the Peachtree NovaPre, which is tube based, though not technically a headphone amplifier. Sounds too loose and gooey though compared to the Conductor which gives me my damn whiskey the way I like it .... straight.


----------



## vkalia

zashoomin said:


> Ok so you dont' have to agree with me but here is what I think.  The ALO Pan Am is good...for portable use.  And RWA is overrated.  I can't say cavalli LG isn't good because it is fantastic but I will say the LAu is better IMHO and it is solid state.  Also the Burson Soloist/Conductor (they are the same amp) Schiit Mjolnir, Beta 22, Vioelectric V200, Head-Amp GS-X MKII (Considered one of the best if not the best pairing)...etc are all solid state and I have heard all of them and can say they all sound fantastic.
> 
> Hey if you like your tube stuff great.  Sound is an opinion.  I mean I love my Bottlehead SEX and it powered my LCD2's and I thought it was amazing so if you like your 2A3 amp great don't let anyone else tell you otherwise but don't tell me that I am dumb and regurgitating information from other people.  No, I just agree with them.  And yes I have listen to every single amp I put on that list.  Also, one last comment. If you look at my profile I also have a Beta 22 and I think it sounds better than my SEX and if you don't know already it is solid state.
> 
> So any other insults I have to take from you?  or are you done?


 
  
 The same argument also holds for you - *you* may think solid state is better than tube amps with the LCD2, which is fine (having heard LCD2s off a Bakoon and comparing it to my own amp, I still disagree but that's a subjective thing).    
  
 What I take issue with is you presenting that statement as if it as it were a truism that everyone agrees and accepts.    Add an "IMO" there, and I have no issues.
  
 And dont get your knickers in a twist - i was disagreeing with you, that's all.  If you think my post was somehow an insult, then you perhaps need to get a skin upgrade, b/c quite frankly, I have *no* idea what part of my post comes across that way.


----------



## DefQon

Say what ALO Pam and RWA good with the LCD2's? This is news to me and I've heard both (both pretty bad and overrated).
  
 Most people (those have had there fair share experience with both the popular tube and solid state amps available) would tend to agree that the best for the LCD2 is the Mojo, Soloist/Conductor (excluding the $2k+ range amps). You don't hear many people nowadays rave about pairing a tube amp with the LCD2, at least back in the Lyr days where we didn't have the Violectric and Burson offerings, there are better stuff now and for less too.


----------



## jaywillin

defqon said:


> Say what ALO Pam and RWA good with the LCD2's? This is news to me and I've heard both (both pretty bad and overrated).
> 
> Most people (those have had there fair share experience with both the popular tube and solid state amps available) would tend to agree that the best for the LCD2 is the Mojo, Soloist/Conductor (excluding the $2k+ range amps). You don't hear many people nowadays rave about pairing a tube amp with the LCD2, at least back in the Lyr days where we didn't have the Violectric and Burson offerings, there are better stuff now and for less too.


 

 just to show how subjective this hobby is, in direct comparison, i owned both at the same time, i kept the lyr, sold the soloist, different strokes, different folks


----------



## angelsblood

jaywillin said:


> just to show how subjective this hobby is, in direct comparison, i owned both at the same time, i kept the lyr, sold the soloist, different strokes, different folks


 
  
 I too am thinking of selling my soloist... I find the sparkling treble unbearable. Yes its really subjective, because to you come from grados and you are opposite of me ; )


----------



## NZheadcase

To continue the trend, again another differing opinion. I have the Lyr and Soloist. The Lyr is not being used much.

All three recently mentioned amps are good with LCD 2 in my opinion. By order of preference and percieved quality, its Soloist, Lyr, PanAm.

I have to respectfully disagree with DefQon here. The PanAm is not a bad amp, and worth the price for what it delivers. I obviously don't have as much experience as others, but having these side by side it sems to me they all have strengths and weaknesses, but none of them I could call bad. 

Bad synergy with some cans, yes, but great with others.

Anyhow, this just illustrates the subjectivity of perception in anything, really, not just in this hobby. Best way, try before you buy. Failing that, find opinions of people you trust and share musical tastes with. Emphasis on the shared musical taste for better reference methinks.


----------



## jaywillin

and my selling the soloist was no statement on whether its good or bad, its very good.
 i have two (very diff. sound sigs)cans right now,  and with those two cans, the lyr was the better to me at driving both.
 for me, i made a compromise(a small one) that serves my needs, and preferences. happy, happy !


----------



## gibbro

Hi Guys,
  
 Been reading quite a bit but after about 200 pages got bored 
  
 Just purchased some LCD2's that are on the way, I have a HA160 that has worked well and I feel its time for an upgrade. Can you recommend a better amp than the 160 that has a similar signature (deep bass, smoothness) that is a little more detailed?
  
 I will also be using this amp with LA5000 and Q701. DAC is DA8.
  
 I was thinking Buson Soloist (non SL) but have heard mixed reception of this.
  
 Cheers.


----------



## Trendin

What about the woo audio WA7? is it any good with the lcd 2?


----------



## levinhatz

trendin said:


> What about the woo audio WA7? is it any good with the lcd 2?


 
  
 Honestly folks, the LCD-2 sounds pretty fantastic no matter what you plug it into, but I think I've seen better results from the Woo WA-6SE with the right set of tubes (for me it was the RCA 6DR7s and the Sophia Princess) but the Woo WA7 sounded great too. Powerful tube amps are probably the way to go. 
  
 I ended up powering mine with a Little Dot MKVI+, and chose some nice RCA black plate tubes for it. Drive tubes are Tung-Sol 6SL7GT and it sounds really nice and punchy/powerful. Soundstage and separation are great with this amp.
  
 But I'd say as long as you are giving the LCD-2s at least 1 watt worth of headphone ampage, it's probably going to sound great.


----------



## goldendarko

gibbro said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> Been reading quite a bit but after about 200 pages got bored
> 
> ...


 

 I'm listening to them with the Burson Conductor, and I find them to be a great match, obviously the Soloist is a great choice if you don't want the built in DAC. The Conductor is supposed to be a pretty big improvement from the HA-160 from what I read, but I couldn't say for sure as I haven't heard it.


----------



## philo50

goldendarko said:


> I'm listening to them with the Burson Conductor, and I find them to be a great match, obviously the Soloist is a great choice if you don't want the built in DAC. The Conductor is supposed to be a pretty big improvement from the HA-160 from what I read, but I couldn't say for sure as I haven't heard it.


 
 having owned both, there is no question but that the Soloist(Conductor) is a large step up from the HA-160....and the HA-160 is not exactly chopped liver......


----------



## goldendarko

Yeah that seems to be the sentiment, large step and not just incremental improvement.


----------



## G600

levinhatz said:


>


 
 Thank you for the tubes precisions.
 I have the same setup as you since a month, and don't know exactly what to roll.
 I'm waiting for a pair of RCA 6sl7, and about to pull the trigger on some.


----------



## Trendin

Thanks for the tips guys.


----------



## levinhatz

g600 said:


> Thank you for the tubes precisions.
> I have the same setup as you since a month, and don't know exactly what to roll.
> I'm waiting for a pair of RCA 6sl7, and about to pull the trigger on some.


 
  
 The power tubes I have are RCA 6AS7G and compared to the stock tubes they are full of that warm, potent goodness that you look for in tubes, but they're also pretty all-round. Great way to do justice to the LDMKVI+ without shelling out $500 for tubes.


----------



## vkalia

goldendarko said:


> Yeah that seems to be the sentiment, large step and not just incremental improvement.


 
  
 I've wondered about that, personally.   Small improvements I can get - but a large improvement?  It isnt as if amplifier technology has suddenly taken a giant leap forward, so what gives?


----------



## gibbro

Thanks for the opinions, I was also considering a V200 as I hear it will synergize well with my other cans (although you never know until you actually hear it). However so does the Soloist and the Soloist is marginally cheaper. I never thought changing an amplifier would be a large step, considering the HA160 was no slouch in the first place. I guess I will have to find out.
  
 I hear the non SL version is better with a stepped attenuator like the HA160 and double the power output as the SL, can someone please explain how it would affect the LCD2's or my other cans (the Q701's like a bit of current) as I would be selling the HA160.
  
 This might be a question for another thread, apologies if it is.
  
 I appreciate any comments, thanks.


----------



## DefQon

nzheadcase said:


> I have to respectfully disagree with DefQon here. The PanAm is not a bad amp, and worth the price for what it delivers. I obviously don't have as much experience as others, but having these side by side it sems to me they all have strengths and weaknesses, but none of them I could call bad.
> 
> Bad synergy with some cans, yes, but great with others.
> 
> Anyhow, this just illustrates the subjectivity of perception in anything, really, not just in this hobby. Best way, try before you buy. Failing that, find opinions of people you trust and share musical tastes with. Emphasis on the shared musical taste for better reference methinks.


 
 That's fine but put it bluntly it doesn't sound like you've owned or heard many headphone amp's at all, given that you've only had 3 that you've named.
  


goldendarko said:


> I'm listening to them with the Burson Conductor, and I find them to be a great match, obviously the Soloist is a great choice if you don't want the built in DAC. The Conductor is supposed to be a pretty big improvement from the HA-160 from what I read, but I couldn't say for sure as I haven't heard it.


 
 Any of the latest Burson offering is a big step up from the 160D, that amp was lifeless sounding with many headphones I tried them with before I went down the rabbit hole with electrostatic earspeakers.


----------



## NZheadcase

Ah, yes. Such is life for me that I am humbly limited by my means. To be precise though, I've managed to listen to 5 amps, not just three. Yup, just two more than that which I have listed. 

But hopefully that does not diminish one's opinion. I hope. Well, one can hope. 



Despite my limited experience, I have personally had many enjoyable hours with the PanAm and LCD 2, and other headphones as well. Its not the ultimate amp, oh no, absolutely not. But its good for me, and worth keeping for what it brings to the table. There are some who agree, and some of course who don't - like any other equipment in head-fi.


----------



## vkalia

nzheadcase said:


> Ah, yes. Such is life for me that I am humbly limited by my means. To be precise though, I've managed to listen to 5 amps, not just three. Yup, just two more than that which I have listed.
> 
> But hopefully that does not diminish one's opinion. I hope. Well, one can hope.
> 
> ...


 
  
 The Pan Am is indeed a really, really nice combo with the LCD2.    I wonder how much of gear snobbery goes into the "well, it is only a portable amp" argument.    I have only heard the LCD2 with 2 $1000+ amps (my own and a Bakoon), and with 3-4 other $500-1000 amps (again, one of which i own, and 2-3 of which i auditioned), but I do have a passing familiarity with how a live orchestra sounds, and the LCD2-Pan Am combo do a damn good job of recreating that.


----------



## gibbro

Oh well, no used ones going around so ended up purchasing new Soloist from AddictedtoAudio in Melbourne. Arrives Monday.
  Also waiting on Silver Poison Cable.


----------



## goldendarko

gibbro said:


> Oh well, no used ones going around so ended up purchasing new Soloist from AddictedtoAudio in Melbourne. Arrives Monday.
> 
> Also waiting on Silver Poison Cable.



 


Congrats on the purchase! I think your gonna like the Burson/Audeze gumbo yaya! I would recommend a significant break in on the Burson though, I think they recommend 100 hours.


----------



## zilch0md

I had a Soloist for several months.  Burson support says you should allow the Soloist to warm up for a few minutes before using it.  
  
 I can't say I ever noticed any differences in performance between cold and warm, but then again, I never really tried to analyze that - I just followed their advice.
  
  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 Mike


----------



## goldendarko

Yeah the say a 30 minute warm up before using it, but I also have not noticed any difference so I am not as adamant about that. Break in period definately made a difference though.


----------



## FredrikT92

Those who only own a Burson should try a 5W @ 50Ohm amp.
 Just try it and you will know why!


----------



## goldendarko

fredrikt92 said:


> Those who only own a Burson should try a 5W @ 50Ohm amp.
> Just try it and you will know why!


 

 Such as?


----------



## Chris_Himself

goldendarko said:


> Such as?


 
 Emotiva Mini-X is 50w lol.. but then you'd use a resistor or speaker tap adaptor for more useable attenuation


----------



## DarKen23

goldendarko said:


> fredrikt92 said:
> 
> 
> > Those who only own a Burson should try a 5W @ 50Ohm amp.
> ...


The mjolnir, obviously


----------



## DefQon

Get yourself some 500watt per channel monoblocks. Should definitely get everybody's e-peen here erect.


----------



## G600

defqon said:


> Get yourself some 500watt per channel monoblocks. Should definitely get everybody's e-peen here erect.


 
 Not so wrong !


----------



## vkalia

defqon said:


> Get yourself some 500watt per channel monoblocks. Should definitely get everybody's e-peen here erect.



 


You forgot the $1000 power cable and the squash balls underneath the amp, b/c that is what really changes the sound signature of the set-up. 

Although the truly committed will move their system off-planet to a state of true galactic rest, to prevent planetary vibrations.


----------



## Chris_Himself

vkalia said:


> defqon said:
> 
> 
> > Get yourself some 500watt per channel monoblocks. Should definitely get everybody's e-peen here erect.
> ...


 
  
 Organic asian pears bolted to the bottomof my Mjolnir as the feat really liven the treble energy for my LCD-2's


----------



## HiFiRobot

vkalia said:


> defqon said:
> 
> 
> > Get yourself some 500watt per channel monoblocks. Should definitely get everybody's e-peen here erect.
> ...




Can you recommend an appropriate bluetooth receiver for this off-planet setup or do we need to crowdfund a satellite with the necessary communication protocols ?


----------



## mmlogic

I picked up a cheap Sansui vintage receiver/amplifier 2 weeks ago, the synergy with LCD-2 is ridiculously good, very open yet involving, silky smooth and super airy, l actually like it more than Leben CS300.


----------



## mentt

gibbro said:


> Thanks for the opinions, I was also considering a V200 as I hear it will synergize well with my other cans (although you never know until you actually hear it). However so does the Soloist and the Soloist is marginally cheaper. I never thought changing an amplifier would be a large step, considering the HA160 was no slouch in the first place. I guess I will have to find out.
> 
> I hear the non SL version is better with a stepped attenuator like the HA160 and double the power output as the SL, can someone please explain how it would affect the LCD2's or my other cans (the Q701's like a bit of current) as I would be selling the HA160.
> 
> ...


 
 Also consider MEIER AUDIO CLASSIC AMP. ALO Pan Am AMP suppose to be great match for LCD2. I have both Pan Am and CLASSIC and I think that CLASSIC is step up from Pan Am...


----------



## oqvist

mmlogic said:


> I picked up a cheap Sansui vintage receiver/amplifier 2 weeks ago, the synergy with LCD-2 is ridiculously good, very open yet involving, silky smooth and super airy, l actually like it more than Leben CS300.


 
 Vintage is the way to go. What did you pay for it?
  
 I finally after some insane delay got hold of my speaker adapter. Yamaha RDS-440 really is it when it comes to LCD-2 for me. I have tried this before with a stock stripped LCD-2 cable now running a Norse Audio Skuld V2 and it´s an improvement absolutely over stock cable.
  
  I have gone through a series of decent commonly liked amplifiers like  Violectric V200, SPL Auditor, Holographic Audio Ear One, Audio GD C-2.1, Goldpoint Headphone Pro, Audio GD NFB10.32SE and Trafomatic Audio Head One among others and this used 15$ surround receiver in yamahas budget series just totally destroy them all. It´s not really close. It´s like one league the receiver and the rest it´s more or less personal preferences. It´s like the Yamaha have no sound it´s real. Plays bigger and more effortless where my dedicated headphone amplifers are just to sterile and can´t quite keep the soundstage open. Some of those do offer 5W though but maybe it´s not always enough???
  
 If I ever would feel start experimenting again I would solely look for stereo amplifiers for speakers I am done with headphone amplifiers.


----------



## jaywillin

i'll have a mjolnir today, but my balanced cable from audeze just shipped today,, the lyr, and mjo, and a soloist will ship thursday, i'll have them here all at the same time , which will be very nice , i'm excited


----------



## goldendarko

What is the most recommended cable for the LCD-2, Silver or Copper? I am using a Burson Conductor for an amp, just curious.


----------



## oqvist

Wrong thread. I have one silver and one copper both works


----------



## Trendin

99% you wont hear a difference between them.


----------



## DarKen23

mmlogic said:


> I picked up a cheap Sansui vintage receiver/amplifier 2 weeks ago, the synergy with LCD-2 is ridiculously good, very open yet involving, silky smooth and super airy, l actually like it more than Leben CS300.


 
 Nice Leben!


----------



## Jeff Y

I tried a vioelectric amp for these at some shop in hong kong. I went there for vacation. I would like to try out Graham Slee with these though because the vioelectric made them sound a bit too analystical.


----------



## mmlogic

mmlogic said:


> I picked up a cheap Sansui vintage receiver/amplifier 2 weeks ago, the synergy with LCD-2 is ridiculously good, very open yet involving, silky smooth and super airy, l actually like it more than Leben CS300.


 
  
 Since the mid-fi Sansui sound so good with LCD2, I manage to get a hi-fi Snasui.
 Now the Sansui AU5500 is officially my main LCD2 amp


----------



## CDCollector

Gungnir + Mjolnir + LCD-2 = good?
  
 Or is the Conductor + LCD-2 better?


----------



## goldendarko

Probably depends on what kind of sound you prefer and what kind of music you listen too, but I would vote for the Conductor + LCD-2 myself.


----------



## DarKen23

cdcollector said:


> Gungnir + Mjolnir + LCD-2 = good?
> 
> Or is the Conductor + LCD-2 better?



Something else + Mjolnir + LCD2 = better


----------



## Barry S

cdcollector said:


> Gungnir + Mjolnir + LCD-2 = good?
> 
> Or is the Conductor + LCD-2 better?


 

 I haven't heard the Conductor, but Burson has a good reputation. I do have the Gungnir/Mjolnir and owned the LCD-2.2 for just over a year (until I got the LCD-X). The Gungnir/Mjolnir is an excellent match for the LCD-2. I haven't heard any better amps for the LCD-2 than the Mjolnir--it's a fantastic pairing and I think the Mjolnir was tuned with Audeze in mind. I just got done comparing the Gungnir to an assortment of DACs in the $500-$2000 range, and the Gungnir was the equal of the top sounding DACs.


----------



## CDCollector

darken23 said:


> Something else + Mjolnir + LCD2 = better


 
  
 What's wrong with the Gungnir?


----------



## DarKen23

cdcollector said:


> darken23 said:
> 
> 
> > Something else + Mjolnir + LCD2 = better
> ...


Just wasn't my thang.


----------



## Zashoomin

The gungnir is good but I think you can do better for the price.  Mjolnir for the price though is excellent but so is the burson.  Though I did find the Burson to be a bit boring.  I would say that the Conductor is better but Mjolnir plus gungnir is more fun.  I would have to agree with DarKen though something + mjolnir sounds like a good idea.


----------



## CDCollector

zashoomin said:


> The gungnir is good but I think you can do better for the price.  Mjolnir for the price though is excellent but so is the burson.  Though I did find the Burson to be a bit boring.  I would say that the Conductor is better but Mjolnir plus gungnir is more fun.  I would have to agree with DarKen though something + mjolnir sounds like a good idea.


 
  
 What would be your suggestions for that "something"? They'd have to be balanced I guess?


----------



## Zashoomin

cdcollector said:


> What would be your suggestions for that "something"? They'd have to be balanced I guess?


 
 Doesn't have to be balanced but if you want it to be balanced I would suggest a Yulong D18 (if you don't need USB input)  If you do need USB I would get a M2Tech hiface with it or the Yulong U18(USB interface supposed to pair with the D18).  If you don't care about balanced though I would go with the Resonessence Labs Concero HD or Meier Audio Daccord.  If you want to go a bit up in price there are a million more options.  As well as a lot more balanced options.  
  
 Also if you want to go balanced (or unbalanced) Audio GD makes a bunch of amazing products that will or will not break the bank depending on what you want.


----------



## jaywillin

cdcollector said:


> What would be your suggestions for that "something"? They'd have to be balanced I guess?


 

 the mjo will accept a single ended inputs, im using it right now, with the wadia 121, i'm using the balanced inputs though
 i'm waiting for my balanced cables to arrive from audeze, and i have a soloist coming as well, i'll be able to compare
 side by side, the lyr, the mjo, and the soloist with the lcd2, and the hifiman he-5le , should be interesting


----------



## kothganesh

barry s said:


> I haven't heard the Conductor, but Burson has a good reputation. I do have the Gungnir/Mjolnir and owned the LCD-2.2 for just over a year (until I got the LCD-X). The Gungnir/Mjolnir is an excellent match for the LCD-2. I haven't heard any better amps for the LCD-2 than the Mjolnir--it's a fantastic pairing and I think the Mjolnir was tuned with Audeze in mind. I just got done comparing the Gungnir to an assortment of DACs in the $500-$2000 range, and the Gungnir was the equal of the top sounding DACs.


 
 The huge exhalation that you may have heard is me since I own the Gungnir/Mjolnir combo. After reading Gary's experiments, I was about to pull the trigger on any one of Yulong or Metrum. Man, I am more peaceful after reading this.


----------



## goldendarko

kothganesh said:


> The huge exhalation that you may have heard is me since I own the Gungnir/Mjolnir combo. After reading Gary's experiments, I was about to pull the trigger on any one of Yulong or Metrum. Man, I am more peaceful after reading this.



 


...


----------



## kothganesh

goldendarko said:


> kothganesh said:
> 
> 
> > The huge exhalation that you may have heard is me since I own the Gungnir/Mjolnir combo. After reading Gary's experiments, I was about to pull the trigger on any one of Yulong or Metrum. Man, I am more peaceful after reading this.
> ...


 
 Ouch...


----------



## Barry S

kothganesh said:


> The huge exhalation that you may have heard is me since I own the Gungnir/Mjolnir combo. After reading Gary's experiments, I was about to pull the trigger on any one of Yulong or Metrum. Man, I am more peaceful after reading this.


 

 The Yulong is clearly the FOTM, but there's no evidence it sounds any better than the other good sounding DACs. There's a lot of other features higher on my list than a DSD decoder. The Metrum sounded very close to the Gungnir, and certainly not better to me. Sleep easy.


----------



## DarKen23

barry s said:


> kothganesh said:
> 
> 
> > The huge exhalation that you may have heard is me since I own the Gungnir/Mjolnir combo. After reading Gary's experiments, I was about to pull the trigger on any one of Yulong or Metrum. Man, I am more peaceful after reading this.
> ...


For the price, the Yulong da8 is hard to beat. The USB implement is quite wonderful, it's got a very competitive amp, and just about everything you'd need.


----------



## paradoxper

barry s said:


> The Yulong is clearly the FOTM, but there's no evidence it sounds any better than the other good sounding DACs. There's a lot of other features higher on my list than a DSD decoder. The Metrum sounded very close to the Gungnir, and certainly not better to me. Sleep easy.


 
 Yulong is actually pretty good, not FOTM. Just gonna put in a vote for Gungnir. It took a whole lot for me to find something I prefer more to it.


----------



## DarKen23

paradoxper said:


> barry s said:
> 
> 
> > The Yulong is clearly the FOTM, but there's no evidence it sounds any better than the other good sounding DACs. There's a lot of other features higher on my list than a DSD decoder. The Metrum sounded very close to the Gungnir, and certainly not better to me. Sleep easy.
> ...


When you say "good", that's based on what you've read, amirite? I remember you've stated that you haven't listen to the DA8 it at all.


----------



## paradoxper

darken23 said:


> When you say "good", that's based on what you've read, amirite? I remember you've stated that you haven't listen to the DA8 it at all.


 
 Nope. I've spent enough time with the DA8 to know it's good and not FOTM. We discussed this already.


----------



## gibbro

Can confirm DA8 and Soloist is a great combo so far.


----------



## radlyant

Hi all, I'm looking to upgrade the headphone amp for my turntable and I would like something that can really smooth out female vocals, I'm looking for anything below 600USD and I've heard good things about the Schitt Lyr, however I don't know how it affects female vocals so far, anybody care to shed some light on this for me? any help would be appreciated, also feel free to recommend me other amps.


----------



## oqvist

hmm if I would look for a speaker amplifier in the used market that offer crazy bang for the buck what should I keep my eyes open for? Any better then http://shop.emotiva.com/products/a100
  
 do miss a remote a bit with that one but then I don´t have a remote on my cd-changer either.


----------



## DarKen23

oqvist said:


> hmm if I would look for a speaker amplifier in the used market that offer crazy bang for the buck what should I keep my eyes open for? Any better then http://shop.emotiva.com/products/a100
> 
> do miss a remote a bit with that one but then I don´t have a remote on my cd-changer either.


 
 The FirstWatt F5 amplifier.


----------



## paradoxper

With LCD-2 those amps are wasted.


----------



## DarKen23

paradoxper said:


> With LCD-2 those amps are wasted.


 
 Well he did say "bang for buck" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 . 'Crazy' bang for buck at that.


----------



## paradoxper

darken23 said:


> Well he did say "bang for buck"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I'd almost feel it's a poor value bottlenecking the F5 like that.


----------



## Zashoomin

LCD2's don't need speaker amps to sound amazing.  The only headphones I have come across that sound better off of speaker amps are the HE-6 and K1000.  Other than that they will all do very well off of a high powered headphone amp.  If you can push at least 1W of power into the LCD2's they will sing for you.


----------



## oqvist

paradoxper said:


> I'd almost feel it's a poor value bottlenecking the F5 like that.


 
 Thanks for the suggestion but yes a a bit more expensive then what I considered. Just a good decent stereo amplifier that would duh not be awful with single driver speakers either apart from driving the LCD-2 with low noise floor 
  
 I have no faith in headphone amplifiers anymore tried to many and there is just no value there I feel based on my Yamaha RDS-440 jackpot


----------



## DarKen23

oqvist said:


> paradoxper said:
> 
> 
> > I'd almost feel it's a poor value bottlenecking the F5 like that.
> ...


So spend more and try the rest


----------



## Archerious

darken23 said:


> So spend more and try the rest


 
 I noticed you got the HE-6? Is it a neutral can or bassy? I'm too lazy to google the reviews.


----------



## DarKen23

vampire5003 said:


> darken23 said:
> 
> 
> > So spend more and try the rest
> ...


That's for you to decide.


----------



## esmBOS

Anyone having any experience with the Meier Classic + Daccord for driving the LCD-2's?


----------



## mentt

esmbos said:


> Anyone having any experience with the Meier Classic + Daccord for driving the LCD-2's?


 
 I have this combo and compare to ALO Pan AM, Meier combo is better match for LCD2.


----------



## mentt

mentt said:


> I have this combo and compare to ALO Pan AM, Meier combo is better match for LCD2.


 
 I also liked Meier combo more then M-DAC/V200 combo.


----------



## Viper2005

I love my Yulong DA8/V200 combo with the new Toxic Silver Widow cable I got today


----------



## Tony1110

viper2005 said:


> I love my Yulong DA8/V200 combo with the new Toxic Silver Widow cable I got today




Nice


----------



## Axirra

Hi,
  
 I've recently purchased a 2nd hand pair of LCD2's and am looking into amp options for them. I am somewhat new to powered headphones and amps so am looking for some suggestions from more experienced users.
  
 I am currently powering my LCD2s via an MOTU 828 Mk2 firewire sound card. The LCDs sound good, but I can't help but feel I'm not getting the most out of them with the MOTU so am looking at something with some more power. fyi the MOTU's output is 30½ at 200mW.
  
 My requirements are for something with a relatively small footprint as space is limited, and under £5-600 that will drive the cans well with an accurate freq response down to 20-25hz. I'm using the LCD's alongside a Subpac (http://thesubpac.com) and intend to run my audio in the following chain > computer/firewire soundcard/subpac/amp/headphone and am keen to maintain low freq, accurate bass as this set up will be used as another mix reference tool in my home studio.
  
 I was looking at the PanAM amp, but its unavailable in the UK and has a freq range of 40hz-30hkz so doesn't really meet the requirements I'm after but its in the right ball park I think. If theres any suggestions I'd be most grateful. In the meantime I'm going to start twilling through the 478(!) pages in this thread for suggestions but hoping someone might spot this and lend a hand in the meantime.
  
 Thanks in advance!


----------



## oqvist

I am doing some final experimenting. I bought an Argon DA2 V2 speaker amplifier in a small and nice format. It didn´t work at all massive white hiss and only got marginally better running digital in.
  
 Now got home a Yamaha R-S300 and I wonder if it´s not the most inky black headphone amplifier I ever owned. Not the most power ful just 2x50 not sure it is able to drive my XTZ 89 satellites as they are rated for . 70 RMS and 120W peak is they rated for. But that don´t mean much because I have neighbours to consider anyway which also mean I have to limit my LCD-2 use too. Will see how well I got the LCD-2 going on it. It surely sound good on a first listen and I have absolutely no hiss whatsoever. Nice when marketing is true they clame they focused hard on this I can´t hear any noise whatsoever that shouldn´t be there.


----------



## oqvist

Okay the ONLY positive about the R-S300 is the noise floor. a 300$ Yamaha AV Receiver from 2005 beats a 200$ Yamaha stereo receiver and it´s not even a match. The LCD-2 is as close to total transparency I ever got on the RDS-400. Deep deep soundstage and so effortlessly superb. Only kink in the armour is the noise floor but it´s quite easy to live with when all else is so superb. 
  
 Strange...


----------



## sashua

Can I get a few recommendations for portable amps to properly drive the LCD-2's? I have a Fiio X3 and expect that it will need some more juice 
  
 I was going to buy the Fiio E12 Mont Blanc but if there are some better choices out there I am all ears (get it...a headphone joke LOL)
  
 Thanks,
 Russ


----------



## zilch0md

Meier Audio Corda Quickstep (on 15V external battery)

iBasso PB2 Pelican

RSA SR71B

Triad Audio Lisa 3

(To name a few that are capable...)


----------



## Brendanz

Hey guys , do you guys have any recommendations for a tube amplifier for the LCD-2 Rev 2 ? I would like a tube amp that has a warm , lush ,dark sounding and smooth sound signature to it . I was thinking of something like the woo audio WA2 , would that be a good choice? My budget is around $1500 .


----------



## Trendin

Im' using WA7 and it's great.


----------



## senson

brendanz said:


> Hey guys , do you guys have any recommendations for a tube amplifier for the LCD-2 Rev 2 ? I would like a tube amp that has a warm , lush ,dark sounding and smooth sound signature to it . I was thinking of something like the woo audio WA2 , would that be a good choice? My budget is around $1500 .


 
 I would go with WA6-SE instead off WA2. it is more suitable for LCDs and sounds better.
 To my ears WA2(TS 5998s, Amperex Orange Globe, RFT EZ80) makes LCD2R2 little too warm and lush it loses details compares to WA6-SE(6DR7+596s)
 I don't know how dark, warm, lush sounds you want your system to be, but to my ears WA6-SE was tuby enough.
 I heard Decware Taboo is a very good amp for Audeze and it's kinda in your budget, but haven't heard it personally.


----------



## Dubstep Girl

I highly recommend the WA6-SE over the WA2 as well.
  
 theres also the WA7 available now as well and that is supposed to be great with audeze too.


----------



## Tony1110

Hey Dubstep Girl, did you ever try the WA6SE with the LCD-X or XC?


----------



## Zashoomin

brendanz said:


> Hey guys , do you guys have any recommendations for a tube amplifier for the LCD-2 Rev 2 ? I would like a tube amp that has a warm , lush ,dark sounding and smooth sound signature to it . I was thinking of something like the woo audio WA2 , would that be a good choice? My budget is around $1500 .


 
 I would also consider the Decware Taboo.  An amazing tube amp for the LCD2's.


----------



## jaywillin

now don't laugh, but i'm listening to the lcd2 with the schiit vali right now, better than you'd ever think !


----------



## Dubstep Girl

tony1110 said:


> Hey Dubstep Girl, did you ever try the WA6SE with the LCD-X or XC?


 
  
 no


----------



## DefQon

Mojo + LCD2 = end game and the best amp, solid state and tube I've tried. Though I haven't heard any of the dynamic Gilmore amps with the LCD2's but I would assume they would also be very good as people from the LCD3 thread have reported that it is an end game amp for the LCD3's, given I've heard and owned both for a substantial amount of time to put forth my analysis the difference between the LCD3 and LCD2 is not very big objectively but some people make it out to be a big deal of difference just from that one peak or dip etc. 
  
 The Soloist/Conductor is a definite improvement over the old 160 range but I'd gladly take a LCD2 via speaker taps or headphone out from a vintage 25-60w/channel amp over it.
  
 If going fully balanced is a deal breaker the Soloist/Conductor path makes perfect sense.
  
 I've had negative experience with some Audio-gd's stuff in the past but I may need to re-evaluate my impressions once I hear there TOTL amp's/dac's the Master series since Kevin Gilmore has given much praise to the design and price it is at, which is really saying something.


----------



## jaywillin

i actually liked the lyr more than the soloist, but the solist was indeed very good, but the mjo has them both beat IMO, but
 i'm curious about the bryston bha-1,


----------



## Dubstep Girl

I prefer Soloist over Lyr but Lyr over Mojo for LCD-2, so definitely a difference in preference there.


----------



## jaywillin

different strokes as they say , thats one of the things that makes this so fun !


----------



## DefQon

dubstep girl said:


> I prefer Soloist over Lyr but Lyr over Mojo for LCD-2, so definitely a difference in preference there.


 
 Well you also like the WA6SE for the LCD's so it's also saying something there.


----------



## kothganesh

Throwing my hat in the ring, the Mojo to my ears is the best amp to pair with the Audeze cans. I have the Lyr and the Soloist and the former does pair very well with the 2.2.


----------



## Dubstep Girl

defqon said:


> Well you also like the WA6SE for the LCD's so it's also saying something there.


 
  
 yes i do (only with 596 tube though, other combinations aren't as good).
  
 i would put it close to the Soloist in terms of how good it pairs with audeze


----------



## jubjubb

Hello!
I'm kind of noob here...
I was wondering if you could help me with my choice of amp matching.
I have the LCD-2 and I'm about to get an amp.
Considering I can get these two amp for about the same price used, what would be the best choice?
1-Schiit Lyr
2-Woo Audio WA-2 with custom upgrade (Black gate caps, and the following tube kit : - one pair of 1959 Amperex Bugle Boys (<200 hours, should last many years) plus original stock tubes (~200 hours)
- one pair of Russian Sovtek Winged "C" 6AS7G (~300 hours) plus 3 more brand new pairs for replacement
- one pair of 6Z4 rectifier tubes (<200 hours, should last many years) with one more brand new pair for replacement

I listen to all kind of music, but I have to tell: I'm a basshead...
I know the Woo is supposed to be highest rated, but I see the watt output is under 1watt per channel, and audeze consider that 2watt minimum is recommended...

What do you guys think?


----------



## kothganesh

Jubjubb, my 0.02$. Get the Lyr, the Amperex Orange Globes and enjoy.


----------



## jubjubb

Ok!
What's special about the Amperez Globes?
The Lyr i'm lookimg for comes with the G.E globes by the way...


----------



## kothganesh

To my ears they provide very good extension and slam that the stock tubes don't.


----------



## DarKen23

Or you can just get the mjolnir and call it a day.


----------



## vkalia

brendanz said:


> Hey guys , do you guys have any recommendations for a tube amplifier for the LCD-2 Rev 2 ? I would like a tube amp that has a warm , lush ,dark sounding and smooth sound signature to it . I was thinking of something like the woo audio WA2 , would that be a good choice? My budget is around $1500 .


 
  
 Get a single-ended tube amplifier, running 45s or 2A3s.   I have a custom 2A3 integrated amp and with my LCD2,2s, the result is pure magic - lush, meaty, warm, midrange-to-die-for.
  
 I think the Decware Taboo fits the bill.   Plus, as the 2A3s put out around 2-3W, that is perfect for the headphones.


----------



## Zashoomin

jubjubb said:


> Hello!
> I'm kind of noob here...
> I was wondering if you could help me with my choice of amp matching.
> I have the LCD-2 and I'm about to get an amp.
> ...


 
 WA 2 is an OTL amp and will not put out enough current to drive the LCD2's well. I would definately go with the lyr.  That or if you have enough money to buy a used WA2 buy a Mjolnir instead.  If you are a basehead Mjilnir will be a wonderful choice.


----------



## Dubstep Girl

jubjubb said:


> Hello!
> I'm kind of noob here...
> I was wondering if you could help me with my choice of amp matching.
> I have the LCD-2 and I'm about to get an amp.
> ...


 
  
  
 the WA2 will have trouble driving the LCD-2, the Lyr is a much better choice.
  
 But, how can you get them the same price used? Even used, the WA2 is triple the cost of the Lyr, they're not even close price-wise. If it wasn't for the fact that the WA2 can't drive the LCD-2 well, it would be foolish to either overpay for the lyr or pass up a killer deal on the WA2.


----------



## Tony1110

dubstep girl said:


> the WA2 will have trouble driving the LCD-2, the Lyr is a much better choice.
> 
> But, how can you get them the same price used? Even used, the WA2 is triple the cost of the Lyr, they're not even close price-wise. If it wasn't for the fact that the WA2 can't drive the LCD-2 well, it would be foolish to either overpay for the lyr or pass up a killer deal on the WA2.




+1. 

Wish I could find a WA2 at the same price as a used Lyr.


----------



## DefQon

Lol 2A3's, KT88/66/77 and 300B family tubes are all very expensive to roll.
  
 I'd personally avoid the entire Woo line up of amps if you have the LCD's.
  
 Solid state camp:
  
 Common candidates
  
 GS1, GSX MK2, B22, Soloist/Conductor, Mojo, Master series from audio-gd or vintage amp/receiver or DIY
  
 Tube/valve camp:
  
 S.E.X, Decaware lineup, Schiit's tube stuff, Manley Neo or Stingray II (bloody great on taps for the HE-6), Eddie Currents stuff and DIY


----------



## White Lotus

defqon said:


> Lol 2A3's, KT88/66/77 and 300B family tubes are all very expensive to roll.
> 
> I'd personally avoid the entire Woo line up of amps if you have the LCD's.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Fantastic post, a big help. Thanks mate!


----------



## Brendanz

I have a budget issue unfortunately being only a student. I have to limit myself to $1500USD . I found a used Woo audio wa 2 about 1 year old selling for about $780 USD ith stock tubes and thought of getting that. What do you guys think ? Should I avoid the entire Woo audio line up with the LCD-2 ?


----------



## Brendanz

defqon said:


> Lol 2A3's, KT88/66/77 and 300B family tubes are all very expensive to roll.
> 
> I'd personally avoid the entire Woo line up of amps if you have the LCD's.
> 
> ...


 
 I was thinking of getting a used Manley Stingray ll because of the great reviews it has but I can't find one locally and I have trust issues with buying used products from ebay.


----------



## DefQon

white lotus said:


> Fantastic post, a big help. Thanks mate!


 
 No problems, there's a whole bunch of other integrated tube/solid state/mono-block/headphone amp's that I've heard but I'm too lazy too list them and the ones I listed are the more better bunch for the LCD2's sound and synergy wise speaking.
  


brendanz said:


> I have a budget issue unfortunately being only a student. I have to limit myself to $1500USD . I found a used Woo audio wa 2 about 1 year old selling for about $780 USD ith stock tubes and thought of getting that. What do you guys think ? Should I avoid the entire Woo audio line up with the LCD-2 ?


 
 Sure you can get the WA2 for $780 but it won't suit the 50ohm LCD2's well at all period unless you like to do a bit of modding.
  
 Grab yourself a Mojo and call it a day.
  


brendanz said:


> I was thinking of getting a used Manley Stingray ll because of the great reviews it has but I can't find one locally and I have trust issues with buying used products from ebay.


 
 Yeah I hear ya, since the Manley stuff ain't cheap $3k+ I'd recommend you audition one locally or somebody who owns one. ebay is alright sometimes even for expensive amp's but be sure to ask for lots of pictures, any past tampering (i.e modding and such), warranty transfer and ownership etc.
  
 I've only recently tried the Stingray II for a few speakers I was auditioning till I ripped out the HE-6 and a friends LCD2's I borrowed (mine are in pieces) and boy was the sound great.


----------



## Brendanz

If the Wa2 is not good for the LCD-2 and I have budget issues , I should settle for something cheaper like a Schitt audio Lyr or something? If I increase my budget , what would you guys recommend ?


----------



## White Lotus

I have the chance to pick up a 2nd hand Audiotailor Jade with aftermarket tubes..
  
 Bad idea? I'm pretty sure it's OTL.


----------



## kothganesh

brendanz said:


> If the Wa2 is not good for the LCD-2 and I have budget issues , I should settle for something cheaper like a Schitt audio Lyr or something? If I increase my budget , what would you guys recommend ?


 
 IMO, Lyr is plenty good.


----------



## Zashoomin

brendanz said:


> If the Wa2 is not good for the LCD-2 and I have budget issues , I should settle for something cheaper like a Schitt audio Lyr or something? If I increase my budget , what would you guys recommend ?


 
 WA2 is not very good with the LCD2's but is a very very good amp with higher impedance headphones.  The lyr is a wonderful amp but if you can stretch your budget just a little bit get the schiit mjolnir.


----------



## Brendanz

Other than woo audio what other brands make a full tube amplifier that has enough power for the LCD-2 .


----------



## Dubstep Girl

if you can stretch your budget the Burson is pretty good or the Mjolnir (pretty good for LCD-2, but not my favorite).


----------



## Brendanz

I meant Tube amplifiers. I don't quite like the sound of SS amps , I like something which is very lush ,warm ,smooth and dark sounding. I might be able to stretch my budget to at most 1800.


----------



## goldendarko

Decware Taboo Mark III is supposedly a good tube amp for the LCD-2, though I haven't heard it for myself yet, hope too soon though.


----------



## Brendanz

goldendarko said:


> Decware Taboo Mark III is supposedly a good tube amp for the LCD-2, though I haven't heard it for myself yet, hope too soon though.



 I heard of decware but they don't seem as highly regarded/ famous by the community or rather famous as the woo audio products.


----------



## goldendarko

I don't know, I haven't heard it myself like I said, but I have read pretty good reviews on it. Other tube amps to check out besides the Woo are the Schiit Lyr if your on a tight budget and if cost is no object I would myself want an ALO Studio 6.


----------



## Tony1110

goldendarko said:


> Decware Taboo Mark III is supposedly a good tube amp for the LCD-2, though I haven't heard it for myself yet, hope too soon though.




I thought about it enough to warrant sending Decware an email. The lead time is 8-12 weeks and I'm too impatient to wait that long.

Is there such thing as a single-ended 10 watt headphone amp? That's what I'm searching for.


----------



## jaywillin

tony1110 said:


> I thought about it enough to warrant sending Decware an email. The lead time is 8-12 weeks and I'm too impatient to wait that long.
> 
> Is there such thing as a single-ended 10 watt headphone amp? That's what I'm searching for.


 

 don't know exact wattages , but how about the bryston bha-1, or the big hifiman(5 watts-50ohm) ? both have single ended as well as balanced headphone outputs
 the bryston:

Hi-Z Load: 20 Volts into 600 ohms (667mW) at 001% THD + N at 20-20K
Low-Z Load: 4 volts into 32 ohms (500 mW) at 001% THD + N at 20-20K


----------



## philo50

jaywillin said:


> don't know exact wattages , but how about the bryston bha-1, or the big hifiman ? both have single ended as well as balanced headphone outputs


 
 the EF-6 is single ended front to back.....the 4 pin XLR is a courtesy output and runs as single ended.....5 watts per channel


----------



## jaywillin

philo50 said:


> the EF-6 is single ended front to back.....the 4 pin XLR is a courtesy output and runs as single ended.....5 watts per channel



Yep, looked after I posted


----------



## i019791

tony1110 said:


> I thought about it enough to warrant sending Decware an email. The lead time is 8-12 weeks and I'm too impatient to wait that long.
> 
> Is there such thing as a single-ended 10watt headphone amp? That's what I'm searching for.


 
 Audio gd SA-31SE is 10W @ 40 ohm
 Audio gd Precision 1 is 16W @ 40 ohm


----------



## vkalia

tony1110 said:


> Is there such thing as a single-ended 10 watt headphone amp? That's what I'm searching for.


 
  
 Do you mean single-ended as in output type of single-ended as in circuit design?
  
 If the former, the AudioGD SA31SE, as  i019791 pointed out (I own it and it is technically a very,  very good amp - pretty much at the point where I dont feel the urge to spend any more on solid-state amplification, despite having a fairly flexible budget).
  
 If the latter, 300B SETs typically provide about 8W output.    I think that would be overkill - I used to get complaints from my neighbors listening to Stravinsky on a 3Wpc 2A3 amp, so i cannot imagine you'll need that much wattage for headphones.   Also, tube amps clip a lot more gently/pleasantly than solid state amps, so the peak power requirements can be a lot lower (at 110dB, you arent listening to fine details anyway).


----------



## DefQon

The ALO Studio 6 has some serious design flaws from the schematics and stuff I've read and another problem is it that it is a $600-700 amp in parts in a fancy case priced at $6000?


----------



## goldendarko

defqon said:


> The ALO Studio 6 has some serious design flaws from the schematics and stuff I've read and another problem is it that it is a $600-700 amp in parts in a fancy case priced at $6000?



 


DefQon, where have you heard this? From everything I've read it sounds like a world class amp.


----------



## Zashoomin

goldendarko said:


> defqon said:
> 
> 
> > The ALO Studio 6 has some serious design flaws from the schematics and stuff I've read and another problem is it that it is a $600-700 amp in parts in a fancy case priced at $6000?
> ...


 
  
 When I listened to it, it sounded very good to my ears as well.  Maybe I am missing something.


----------



## DefQon

Check your PM's.


----------



## Zashoomin

defqon said:


> Check your PM's.


----------



## leafs

Hi all,
  
 I would like to find out if there will be noticeable difference in using higher-end DAC. I'm currently using ODAC with Soloist for LCD-2.2 for quite a while.
  
 Thanks in advance.
  
 Cheers


----------



## jubjubb

Thank you guys for your recommendations!
 I bought the Schiit Lyr with the Uber Bifrost DAC as well 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Waiting it to be shipped with impatience.


----------



## DarKen23

jubjubb said:


> Thank you guys for your recommendations!
> I bought the Schiit Lyr with the Uber Bifrost DAC as well
> Waiting it to be shipped with impatience.


but we told you to get the mjolnir


----------



## jubjubb

Haha!
 Next upgrade maybe.


----------



## DarKen23

leafs said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I would like to find out if there will be noticeable difference in using higher-end DAC. I'm currently using ODAC with Soloist for LCD-2.2 for quite a while.
> 
> ...


Some claim that the odac is no different in terms of sound performance compared to a number of higher scaled dacs.

Some also report otherwise. I've personally never owned a odac long enough to make any statement. But I believe the ones that reported otherwise are likely to be more correct. You've just gotta make that call for yourself, try different dacs, compare. There's no point in taking someone's word that 'this is better than that', there are too many holes to fall in.


----------



## Barry S

leafs said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I would like to find out if there will be noticeable difference in using higher-end DAC. I'm currently using ODAC with Soloist for LCD-2.2 for quite a while.
> 
> ...


 

 I have a Modi, which is an inexpensive DAC often compared to the ODAC, and a Gungnir--and have auditioned a lot of DACs. In my experience, DACS fall into three broad categories that are easily distinguishable with highly resolving headphones and amplifiers. There are the basic DAC circuits found in phones, sound cards, and consumer audio equipment. There are mid-level DACs like the Modi, (possibly) ODAC, stock Bifrost, and DACs found in some high-end audio components. Finally, there are the high-end DACs like the Gungnir, DA8, M51, Metrum, Benchmark DAC2, Concero, PWD mk2, and Dangerous Source. The high-end DACs have noticeably larger sound stages, and finely resolve music without any trace of harshness or grain. This is a simplification, and there are some variances within these groups, but I think it's a useful way to look at distinct performance levels.
  
 I believe you'd hear a noticeable difference by moving up to one of the high-end DACs, but I agree you should audition or order with a return policy. There's no sense in paying for differences you can't hear, but when you're at the high-end, a single lower performing component can hold everything else back.


----------



## DarKen23

barry s said:


> leafs said:
> 
> 
> > Hi all,
> ...


Well said.


----------



## DefQon

DAC's are a hit and miss and don't scale as highly as an amp would do. 99% of the time people and reviewer's shill or over exaggerate.
  
 Unlike amp's there is only 2 categories which DAC sound signature full into:
  
 1. Neutral, cold, bright, clinical, sterile, lack of life, ESS Sabre chip DAC's some of the PCM1792 and possibly some of the cheap AKM and Cirrus Logic variants.
  
 2. Neutral-warm, meaty, fat and tubey, dark, musical, NOS, TDA1541/Crown DAC, TDA1543/47, BB PC61P/54/80/66, Wolfson stuff...
  
 If you heard an ODAC and had it next to a PWD2, a large chance for someone with untrained ear's would not be able to greatly distinguish the two since they are both part of category one.


----------



## SP Wild

^ Disagreed.
  
 Quote:


darken23 said:


> Well said.


 

 Agreed.


----------



## DarKen23

defqon said:


> DAC's are a hit and miss and don't scale as highly as an amp would do. 99% of the time people and reviewer's shill or over exaggerate.
> 
> Unlike amp's there is only 2 categories which DAC sound signature full into:
> 
> ...


ESS sabre dacs imo are nowhere near the bright, sterile and etc as you've mentioned, in fact I find them to be the most analog sounding with exceptional detail. 

I'm sure there are ESS sabre dacs configured to sound brittle, so I'm not disagreeing with you. I am only stating that the sound is completely in the other direction of your description with the sabre dacs I've auditioned.


----------



## goldendarko

darken23 said:


> ESS sabre dacs imo are nowhere near the bright, sterile and etc as you've mentioned, in fact I find them to be the most analog sounding with exceptional detail.
> 
> I'm sure there are ESS sabre dacs configured to sound brittle, so I'm not disagreeing with you. I am only stating that the sound is completely in the other direction of your description with the sabre dacs I've auditioned.


 

 +1, I own two different ESS Sabe DAC's (24 & 32 bit) and find neither one to be bright nor sterile.


----------



## DefQon

darken23 said:


> ESS sabre dacs imo are nowhere near the bright, sterile and etc as you've mentioned, in fact I find them to be the most analog sounding with exceptional detail.
> 
> I'm sure there are ESS sabre dacs configured to sound brittle, so I'm not disagreeing with you. I am only stating that the sound is completely in the other direction of your description with the sabre dacs I've auditioned.


 
  
 Analog sounding? You're the first person on the internet to state such thing, you've obviously not heard a NOS TDA1541/43/47 or Crown DAC before be it by itself or in one of them TOTL vintage CDP's. Why do you think some of the most hardcore audiophiles out there still run old CDP's and NOS DAC's that sport those old Philips or Burr Brown PCM IC's? 
  
 My description of the classification I've written above isn't what you're misinterpreting, for example, either of the family of DAC's can of one or possibly more of the fitting description I've written, I didn't group ESS Sabre's as all of the above description, it can be either neutral or clinical sounding, or both.


----------



## White Lotus

defqon said:


> it can be either neutral or clinical sounding, or both.


 
  
 Do they have varying frequency response?


----------



## DarKen23

defqon said:


> darken23 said:
> 
> 
> > ESS sabre dacs imo are nowhere near the bright, sterile and etc as you've mentioned, in fact I find them to be the most analog sounding with exceptional detail.
> ...


Neutral yes, even then it's just slightly neutral. ESS sabre dacs in general, are warmer sounding imo.


----------



## MacedonianHero

darken23 said:


> Neutral yes, even then it's just slightly neutral. ESS sabre dacs in general, are warmer sounding imo.


 
 I find the upper mids/lower treble to be problematic. At least with the one's I've owned / auditioned.


----------



## DarKen23

macedonianhero said:


> darken23 said:
> 
> 
> > Neutral yes, even then it's just slightly neutral. ESS sabre dacs in general, are warmer sounding imo.
> ...


That isn't new, there are reports of others claiming that as well.

I think the important thing to keep in mind is how a dac or product as a whole was built around the ESS sabre chip, not the chip on its own.


----------



## MacedonianHero

darken23 said:


> That isn't new, there are reports of others claiming that as well.
> 
> I think the important thing to keep in mind is how a dac or product as a whole was built around the ESS sabre chip, not the chip on its own.


 
 As a result, I wouldn't classify the Sabre based DACs I've heard as "warm". YMMV.


----------



## DefQon

white lotus said:


> Do they have varying frequency response?


 
 It's not varying frequency responses with DAC's it's gets really fussy and complicated, the final sound warm or bright comes down to whatever chip the DAC is sporting and the output stage.
  


darken23 said:


> Neutral yes, even then it's just slightly neutral. ESS sabre dacs in general, are warmer sounding imo.


 
 No, warm is not a fitting description for ESS Sabre chips even if you had a 6SN7 SRPP stage added with a Broskie follower to the analogue output (i.e RCA) and it still wouldn't give a warm sounding output like the meaty and analogue sounding Philips TDA's. The whole reason the industry starting moving away from the old analogue/musical sounding Philips TDA's was not because Philips put a big EOL sticker on there IC line but because the high fi industry saw fit that people wanted something less musical but more neutral and accurate so bam 4 years later and you start seeing Sabre chips implemented everywhere up till now. The Sabre and newer AKM chips are far from analogue or warm sounding. One can argue and say but all the DAC chip is as it's name says convert analogue to digital, binary 0's and 1's. No it's much more complicated than that and the implementations that surround each particular DAC IC is very different to each other. 
  


macedonianhero said:


> I find the upper mids/lower treble to be problematic. At least with the one's I've owned / auditioned.


 
 I always found the treble to be of a problem with the lesser expensive ESS based DAC's, the only worthwhile ones I've heard that sounds good is a modified Buffalo 3 and this is still under the $1.5k price tag even for a diy project. 
  


macedonianhero said:


> As a result, I wouldn't classify the Sabre based DACs I've heard as "warm". YMMV.


 
 +1.


----------



## DarKen23

Well maybe I'm wrong.

But I certainly don't agree that they are bright, sterile, and that they lack life.


----------



## SP Wild

defqon said:


> Analog sounding? You're the first person on the internet to state such thing, you've obviously not heard a NOS TDA1541/43/47 or Crown DAC before be it by itself or in one of them TOTL vintage CDP's. Why do you think some of the most hardcore audiophiles out there still run old CDP's and NOS DAC's that sport those old Philips or Burr Brown PCM IC's?
> 
> My description of the classification I've written above isn't what you're misinterpreting, for example, either of the family of DAC's can of one or possibly more of the fitting description I've written, I didn't group ESS Sabre's as all of the above description, it can be either neutral or clinical sounding, or both.


 

 I agree with you on this.  If you spend big on dacs - digititus is significantly reduced...if I was on a budget though - I would track down a good nos dac.
  
 Having said that - I don't think amping the LCD2s for power is a big issue with todays current crop of amps.  Get a good one and the LCD2s reward with better dacs - in big ways.  But I am firmly in the source first crowd.


----------



## DefQon

darken23 said:


> Well maybe I'm wrong.
> 
> But I certainly don't agree that they are bright, sterile, and that they lack life.


 
 No you're not wrong that's your opinion and I respect that but remember you need to back up ridiculous claims with evidence and experience you've had with both sides of the fence not just primarily one side. 
  
 As regards with my previous post as well I'm not dismissing all ESS Sabre chip based DAC's as sterile, bright and lack life...no but I stated that it could be one of those adjectives I've thrown in the post that classifies the Sabre quite boldly, be it neutral sounding or bright or even both it becomes quite evident when you hear it from the transducers speakers or headphones, music source is 0's and 1's they have no attributes to attaining whether they are warm or bright sounding that is outputted by the rest of the chain of your setup, but mastering of the recording very well results whether or not it will make it enjoyable to listen to for the end user.
  


sp wild said:


> I agree with you on this.  If you spend big on dacs - digititus is significantly reduced...if I was on a budget though - I would track down a good nos dac.
> 
> Having said that - I don't think amping the LCD2s for power is a big issue with todays current crop of amps.  Get a good one and the LCD2s reward with better dacs - in big ways.  But I am firmly in the source first crowd.


 
 The true thing about most NOS is that it is not done right, no I'm not engineer but I've read white papers by leading industry engineers and designers evaluating and critisizing some of the designs other people have been following off old stuff for decades. With a bit knowledge one can gather off these days off the internet or forum you can fix and implement true non-oversampling to DAC IC's in old CDP's or DAC's. CDP's are the best platform to try it on because they are easy, cheap and give a very rewarding experience to both knowledge and joy to the music it literally sometimes put's them up on the same plane as the big boys - 4 to 5 digit priced players. 
  
 One of the very few engineers that I know of that knows NOS back to front, right to left and has done it properly as well as me hearing it is Guido Tent's "Tent Labs" DAC's and his DIY CDP (not sure if he still does NOS mods though), good schit is good.


----------



## White Lotus

How do these specs sit with you guys?
  


> Analog Output RCA Output Level： 2Vrms at 0dBFS
> 
> XLR Output Level： 4Vrms at 0dBFS(XLR:1=GND,2=HOT,3=COLD)
> 
> ...


 
  
 Is that output impedance something I need to worry about - if it's purely for driving LCD-2.2?


----------



## Tony1110

white lotus said:


> How do these specs sit with you guys?
> 
> 
> Is that output impedance something I need to worry about - if it's purely for driving LCD-2.2?




Don't think output impedance matters so much with planars.


----------



## NinjaHamster

tony1110 said:


> Don't think output impedance matters so much with planars.


 
 They are a purely resistive load, so it may not be as important as some dynamic drivers.  You probably wouldn't want an output impedance too much higher than 8 ohms however.  12 ohms is a little bit higher than you would ideally like, but it should still work reasonably well.


----------



## TsukiNick

How well would a Schiit Magni work with these cans?  Later on I'd likely upgrade the amplification but I'm wondering if they'd be fine with this amp in the mean time.


----------



## White Lotus

Posted photos of my new DAC/amp unit in the LCD2 thread, but it's worth posting here, as it pairs with the LCD2.2 beautifully.
  
 Matrix Mini-i PRO (DSD DXD):


----------



## NinjaHamster

300B single ended amplifiers (speaker amplifiers not headphone) putting out 18 watts per channel sound sublime with the LCD-2's ..


----------



## White Lotus

.....Woah.


----------



## NinjaHamster

You're from Melbourne, aren't you ?  If ever you want to hear them, let me know ...


----------



## vkalia

ninjahamster said:


> 300B single ended amplifiers (speaker amplifiers not headphone) putting out 18 watts per channel sound sublime with the LCD-2's ..


 
  
 Whoa... how are you getting 18W out of 300Bs?   They usually top out at 8W or so, IIRC.


----------



## NinjaHamster

vkalia said:


> Whoa... how are you getting 18W out of 300Bs?   They usually top out at 8W or so, IIRC.


 
 Yes - you are right ... most amplifiers will run 300b's at around 7-9 Watts.  These amplifiers have 2 x 300b tubes per monoblock (4 in total) run in parallel.  I'm not sure that I need the extra power at all, but they sound amazing, which is all that counts !!


----------



## joespride

I am considering buying the lcd-2.2, and an amp to drive them. One of the amps I am looking at has a max output of 1 watt,  and the other amp has 3 watts output, according to Audeze website they suggest between 1 and 4 watts.  I am inclined to believe the 3 watt amp is a better choice as the first is only able to produce the minimum watts suggested.  does anyone have experience with amps rated at 1 watt with the lcd-2, and if so what were your impressions in regards to having enough power
  
 Both amps i am looking at are tube amps, single end topology  (I refrain from posting company names as I'm not looking for biased opinions given because someone likes company A better than B)
  
 Thanks for any help


----------



## goldendarko

Moar watts always wins! Seriously though it just depends on the synergy, between the two. 1 watt from a Tube amp can be plenty for the LCD-2, I think they are very good with the WA7 which I think puts out around 1 watt. Have you any chance to listen to them both?


----------



## brunk

For the latecomers/unaware, I am still accepting orders for a Robinette v3 box. See details in the Robinette Box thread 
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/706029/robinette-box-speaker-amp-to-headphone-interface#post_10279059


----------



## joespride

goldendarko said:


> Moar watts always wins! Seriously though it just depends on the synergy, between the two. 1 watt from a Tube amp can be plenty for the LCD-2, I think they are very good with the WA7 which I think puts out around 1 watt. Have you any chance to listen to them both?


 
 No place to audition, only buy and hope they work out, the 3 watt does offer a 14 day no question return for refund


----------



## goldendarko

What amps are you looking at specifically?


----------



## vkalia

joespride said:


> I am considering buying the lcd-2.2, and an amp to drive them. One of the amps I am looking at has a max output of 1 watt,  and the other amp has 3 watts output, according to Audeze website they suggest between 1 and 4 watts.  I am inclined to believe the 3 watt amp is a better choice as the first is only able to produce the minimum watts suggested.  does anyone have experience with amps rated at 1 watt with the lcd-2, and if so what were your impressions in regards to having enough power
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 


Get the one with the better transformers. If a 3W 2A3 amp can fill my mid-sized room to ear-bleed levels with 94dBW speakers, a 1W SET amp will drive your LCDs plenty loud, unless you really do listen to music with 120dB peaks.

(I assume you mean single-ended amplification design)


----------



## DefQon

or SET design.


----------



## exsomnis

Just jumped on the LCD 2.2 bandwagon and I'm enjoying my cans immensely....on a DIY O2 amp > iFi iDSD nano > FLAC from either PC or iDevice.
  
 I have heard them on a beefier setup before and I have to say that the O2 is more than sufficient for the job - which is surprising given that it's not putting 1W into 60 ohms that Audeze recommends.  
  
 That said, I'm still looking forward to auditioning amps with sufficient power output but given how well it's been going so far, I can take my own sweet time, thank you very much.   
  
 I love these phones.


----------



## bassboysam

Can anyone comment if this amp would be ok to use with the LCD2 off the speaker taps?
http://www.hifiengine.com/library/jvc/a-x1.shtml


----------



## mmlogic

bassboysam said:


> Can anyone comment if this amp would be ok to use with the LCD2 off the speaker taps?
> http://www.hifiengine.com/library/jvc/a-x1.shtml


 
 I don't see there will be any problem, I connect my LCD2 to LUXMAN L-504's speaker out, and I think it's much better than headphone out.


----------



## bassboysam

i just read somewhere about how the taps are grounded or something like that where one needs to be careful??


----------



## kahldog

After many years and much money, of searching for "Audio Nirvana" via the full range speaker with separate tube components I inadvertently stumbled on the Audeze LCD 2's. My only other exposure to this type of listening experience was a pair of Quad ESL 67's. It is very difficult to overcome the room influences in a full home stereo system.
 I first tried the LCD 2's with  Music Fidelity's MPHA 1 headphone amp and at that time, thought I was blown away. I started reading about the power requirements for these ortho's and how they could be connected to the speaker outputs of a power amp, using a divider network. I purchased a small tube amp from Sophia Electric called the "BABY". It is 10 watts/ch in triode mode. I hooked up my LCD 2's using an 8ohm resistor in parallel. All I can say is WHOW!!!!
 This amp retails for around $800.00 USD but can be picked up used for between 4-5 hundred. The only mods I had done were to replace the coupling caps with a Russian paper in oil. Much smoother.
 This amp gets quite good reviews on various sites but no mention of it being used in this type of application. In all honesty I have never enjoyed my music so much even in comparison to my $50,000.00 plus full range speaker system. 
 If you have the chance give it a try and post your thoughts.


----------



## YtseJamer

kahldog said:


> After many years and much money, of searching for "Audio Nirvana" via the full range speaker with separate tube components I inadvertently stumbled on the Audeze LCD 2's. My only other exposure to this type of listening experience was a pair of Quad ESL 67's. It is very difficult to overcome the room influences in a full home stereo system.
> I first tried the LCD 2's with  Music Fidelity's MPHA 1 headphone amp and at that time, thought I was blown away. I started reading about the power requirements for these ortho's and how they could be connected to the speaker outputs of a power amp, using a divider network. I purchased a small tube amp from Sophia Electric called the "BABY". It is 10 watts/ch in triode mode. I hooked up my LCD 2's using an 8ohm resistor in parallel. All I can say is WHOW!!!!
> This amp retails for around $800.00 USD but can be picked up used for between 4-5 hundred. The only mods I had done were to replace the coupling caps with a Russian paper in oil. Much smoother.
> This amp gets quite good reviews on various sites but no mention of it being used in this type of application. In all honesty I have never enjoyed my music so much even in comparison to my $50,000.00 plus full range speaker system.
> If you have the chance give it a try and post your thoughts.




Nice


----------



## kahldog

It definitely won't bother the LCD 2's. If your amp is putting out 30W/ch into 8 ohms it will only be putting out about 4.8 watts into your 50ohm Audeze's. If you notice hum or other noise you can run an 8ohm resistor in parallel between the positive and negative speaker taps and this should lower the noise. I have done this with a 10 watt amp and it works great. I believe Audeze states you can hook these up to an 80 watt amp. I'd be very careful with that. Good luck. By the way it is recommended to use a wire wound, non inductive resistor. 10 watt value should be OK.


----------



## kahldog

They need to have a common ground. This can be confirmed by running a continuity test with a multimeter. Simply put one lead on each negative speaker terminal and if you get tone then you have a common ground.


----------



## DefQon

Interesting, never tried the Baby with direct speaker out to my LCD2's but I'll give it a go. I did find it too coloured and euphonic for my liking for various bookshelfs and powering my Stax via SRD-7 mk2 adaptor. There are also identical clones of the Baby floating around the internet you can buy for $230-300.


----------



## mmlogic

I'm using LUXMAN L-504's speaker out to drive my LCD2, it's better than headphone out IMHO.


----------



## jbbikerider

Woo Audio WA22, upgraded tubes listening with new LCD2.2's with a new Artemis Medusa cable. I'm sound drunk. Unreal and the Woo is is barely breathing on the volume knob.  What a treat.


----------



## Poladise

Been using an O2 amp for a while. Thinking about going for a Mjolnir next. Only thing is the O2 can be harsh/hard/forward in the mid range with my LCD-2r2s on many tracks and I'm thinking the Mjolnir might be the same. Can anybody give a comparison of the two?


----------



## kahldog

I've never tried it with speakers as I have abandoned that avenue. I have sold all my Wadia, Audio Research and PMC equipment. Too expensive for my crazy affliction. I have seen many amps that look identical such as Music Angel and Ming something. I guess the only reason I chose the Sophia is because of the feedback on line about it.They also have a factory in the US which is closer to Canada than China.What I can glean from all the reports is that there is alot of discrepancy in the layouts and actual assembly.
 I guess I lucked out in finding a combination that really appeals to my enjoyment of the music. I now spend more time than ever just enjoying the music. Unfortunately the malady still plagues me and now I am looking at an EL34 amp in triode with a bit more power for the same application.


----------



## exsomnis

poladise said:


> Been using an O2 amp for a while. Thinking about going for a Mjolnir next. Only thing is the O2 can be harsh/hard/forward in the mid range with my LCD-2r2s on many tracks and I'm thinking the Mjolnir might be the same. Can anybody give a comparison of the two?


 
  
 What DAC are you using?  I don't get that at all with my O2 and iFi DAC - mid range is right where it should be, not forward and not recessed.


----------



## kahldog

I think it is important to look closely at the wattage of the amps you are considering. Manufacturers typically post the spec's with regard to power output given a specified load. For example 10 watts into 8ohm. Given that the LCD's are approximately a 50ohm load one must consider the output of the amp into that load. Use the following formula; 10 x 8 / 50 = 1.6 watts output to the LCD 2"s.
 The next thing to consider is that most tube amps will not be comfortable seeing only a 50ohm load and can in some cases damage them. You can install an 8ohm 10 watt wirewound noninductive resistor between the positive and negative speaker outputs on each channel to satisfy the amp. Next it is important that the amp have a common ground as most stereo jack plugs whether 1/4 or 1/8 have a 3 pole connector which means they share a common ground. Simply do a continuity test between the two negative speaker terminals and this will tell you if you have a common ground or not. Connect the leads from a multi-tester to both negative[ground] speaker terminals and set to continuity. If you get tone it means you have common ground. Most amps have common ground but it is better to be certain. I found that more power is better when it comes to my LCD 2's.
 To obtain the best possible sound it is important to have the best possible source. If you are using your computer true lossless formats and 320kbps MP3's seem to sound best to me. Also remember that all tracks are not recorded or mastered to the same level so not all songs will sound great. It is imperative to have a good DAC in this application. I use the HRT MS II + in my setup and am pleased with it. I know there are better out there but at what cost? A good player software is important as well. I use the JRiver 19 which has great capabilities. I have heard that Media Monkey is good too. Windows Media Player did not cut it for me.
 If you are using CD's or Lp's as your source then get the best components you can afford. Hope this helps. Good luck!!


----------



## DefQon

O2 by itself will make any headphone harsh or sterile sounding at times (which is why I call it an overhyped piece of crap). The Mojo is a different amp all together on the other hand. The Mojo's sound should've been what the O2 should've been. But oh wait it's made by an egotistical designer.


----------



## Zashoomin

defqon said:


> O2 by itself will make any headphone harsh or sterile sounding at times (which is why I call it an overhyped piece of crap). The Mojo is a different amp all together on the other hand. The Mojo's sound should've been what the O2 should've been. But oh wait it's made by an egotistical designer.


 
 I would have to agree that the O2 is overhyped but it is quite good (for the price).  Now it most definately doesn't compete with thousand dollar amps like some people say but it is definately a good peace of gear for $100 so I would not call it a piece of crap.  It doesn't have enough power to power the LCD2's but it is good for some headphones that don't require as much power.


----------



## bassboysam

kahldog said:


> I think it is important to look closely at the wattage of the amps you are considering. Manufacturers typically post the spec's with regard to power output given a specified load. For example 10 watts into 8ohm. Given that the LCD's are approximately a 50ohm load one must consider the output of the amp into that load. Use the following formula; 10 x 8 / 50 = 1.6 watts output to the LCD 2"s.
> The next thing to consider is that most tube amps will not be comfortable seeing only a 50ohm load and can in some cases damage them. You can install an 8ohm 10 watt wirewound noninductive resistor between the positive and negative speaker outputs on each channel to satisfy the amp. Next it is important that the amp have a common ground as most stereo jack plugs whether 1/4 or 1/8 have a 3 pole connector which means they share a common ground. Simply do a continuity test between the two negative speaker terminals and this will tell you if you have a common ground or not. Connect the leads from a multi-tester to both negative[ground] speaker terminals and set to continuity. If you get tone it means you have common ground. Most amps have common ground but it is better to be certain. I found that more power is better when it comes to my LCD 2's.
> To obtain the best possible sound it is important to have the best possible source. If you are using your computer true lossless formats and 320kbps MP3's seem to sound best to me. Also remember that all tracks are not recorded or mastered to the same level so not all songs will sound great. It is imperative to have a good DAC in this application. I use the HRT MS II + in my setup and am pleased with it. I know there are better out there but at what cost? A good player software is important as well. I use the JRiver 19 which has great capabilities. I have heard that Media Monkey is good too. Windows Media Player did not cut it for me.
> If you are using CD's or Lp's as your source then get the best components you can afford. Hope this helps. Good luck!!


 
  
  
 what happens if you don't have common ground?


----------



## DefQon

zashoomin said:


> I would have to agree that the O2 is overhyped but it is quite good (for the price).  Now it most definately doesn't compete with thousand dollar amps like some people say but it is definately a good peace of gear for $100 so I would not call it a piece of crap.  It doesn't have enough power to power the LCD2's but it is good for some headphones that don't require as much power.


 
  
 See here lies the problem. When nwavguy was designing and bad mouthing the rest of the manufacturers out there, he called most of the designs oriented around opamp's flawed and hyped and overpriced for what it is, he stated (early in his blog) that the point of the O2 is objectively (hence name) based on a simple circuitry that will compete and overshadow the big boys of similar design out there. And this is where myself and other experienced users come in and say it's a piece of crap designed around tech sheets from IC manufacturers, regardless of price, he egotistically said the O2 will blow expensive crap out of the way, I'm afraid that is far from true. The Schiit Magni is better then the O2, has more power, similar low distortion measurement figures, although it is not portable it is still small enough and actually sounds great for it's value. But you don't hear Jason Stoddard going around claiming the Magni will blow $1000+ SS amp's out of the water, nope you don't.


----------



## Barry S

bassboysam said:


> what happens if you don't have common ground?


----------



## goldendarko

Don't cross the streams!!!


----------



## bassboysam

I read that if the amp doesn't have a common ground then you can still connect your headphones if you use a balanced cable. Is this true?


----------



## kahldog

bassboysam said:


> I read that if the amp doesn't have a common ground then you can still connect your headphones if you use a balanced cable. Is this true?


 

 That would make sense as you are not twinning the grounds together, as you would, on a typical 3 pin connector found on most 1/4 and 1/8 TRS connectors. If I remember correctly, on an unbalanced jack, one connector is for the tip which is typically left channel, another for the pin which is right channel and the last is ground where both channels are connected.


----------



## kahldog

barry s said:


>


 

 Yes it would probably be ELECTRIFYING!!


----------



## DannyBuoy

An update on system choices. So I sold the Ref 5 DAC and bought a violectric v200 to go full balanced with the v181. After 3 months, I felt the system lacked dynamics, big sounds just did not deliver like they did on my home setup. I knew I was lacking some energy. So I sold the v181 and v200 and got a complete audio-gd balanced setup with 32 bit usb and using the audio-gd cable between dac and amp instead of XLR. I have had this setup for over a year now and it is an excellent match for the LCD for me. The nfb6 amp is fully discreet with lots of power (I think it is 5 watts at 50 ohms) and the nfb 1.32 DAC is very, very detailed without the harshness I have heard on another 32 bit Sabre DAC. Anyway, this has proven to be the best sounding, most dynamic, energized setup so far. I also have the upgrades in both units, and have audio-gd power cords, and furman filtering and conditioning. Oh yeah, and the silver starlight usb cable. Happiness....
 Quote:


dannybuoy said:


> For what its worth; I owned a WA6SE (Sophia Princess) with Audio-Gd premium power cord and Audio-Gd NFB2 DAC when I first got my LCD2. I thought the sound quality was a big advancement from my D7000 cans and I liked it a lot.
> 
> About a week later I ordered a Violectric V181 with 24/96 USB module (needed to sell WA6 and NFB2 to fund V181) and for a week or so I had both the V181 and the WA6. After a few A/B comparisons, I unplugged the WA6 and boxed it up for sale. I was thoroughly convinced the SQ of the V181 was vastly better than the WA6 with the LCD2.
> 
> ...


----------



## DannyBuoy

Having went through 5 different dac amp combos on my lcds I can tell you I kept looking for more power until I got to the audio-gd nfb6. I went from yamamoto ha-01 single ended triode, to woo wa6se, to violectric v181, to audio gd- nfb6. I finally felt like I had the dynamics I liked once I was in the 4 to 5 watt range. I also went through several dacs to get to the audio-gd nfb1.32 which I love. So, I reached a point of happiness about a year ago, and have not changed anything since.


----------



## DefQon

The HA-01 pairs wonderfully with Audio Technica woodies and able to drive super efficient speakers just fine. How was it with the LCD2's?


----------



## bassboysam

got confirmation from Fiio that the A1 amp does not have a common ground.  looks like i'll need a balanced cable if i want to run the LCD-2 off of the A1 speaker taps.


----------



## esmBOS

What do you guys think about driving the LCD2's with this little hybrid: http://www.22tutu.com/en/

 12W @ 6 Ohm, Class-D, BTL output, does not have common ground, so I guess you'd have to have a balanced adapter?


----------



## Poladise

esmbos said:


> What do you guys think about driving the LCD2's with this little hybrid: http://www.22tutu.com/en/
> 
> 12W @ 6 Ohm, Class-D, BTL output, does not have common ground, so I guess you'd have to have a balanced adapter?


 

 Could be a good match, but depends. Site says 12W @ 6-8ohm, so you should get just under 2W into the LCDs, but if you need to use resistors to reduce hiss, you'll end up will too little power I think.


----------



## GrindingThud

The Krell KSA-5 Clone is an outstanding LCD-2 amp. Super transparent and fast, not too bright. Dead black silent. It will drive the LCD-2 well beyond listenable levels with no signs of clipping. Class A.


----------



## Zashoomin

grindingthud said:


> The Krell KSA-5 Clone is an outstanding LCD-2 amp. Super transparent and fast, not too bright. Dead black silent. It will drive the LCD-2 well beyond listenable levels with no signs of clipping. Class A.


 
 My Krell is in the works and probably will be for at least another 3 months but I am excited to get it working.  Even if I am going to be running LCD3's off of it.  What I am really excited is to compare the Krell to the Dynahi to the Beta.  That will be very interesting.


----------



## GrindingThud

I would love to have those three side by side. 


zashoomin said:


> My Krell is in the works and probably will be for at least another 3 months but I am excited to get it working.  Even if I am going to be running LCD3's off of it.  What I am really excited is to compare the Krell to the Dynahi to the Beta.  That will be very interesting.


----------



## DefQon

Is this the KSA? I'm guessing it will be balanced Dynahi > balanced KSA > balanced b22.


----------



## GrindingThud

No need for balanced with LCD-2.2 imho. 28V swing of the KSA single ended is insanely loud. I've heard that Dynahi and KSA are very close, which is why I'd like to hear them side by side. 


defqon said:


> Is this the KSA? I'm guessing it will be balanced Dynahi > balanced KSA > balanced b22.


----------



## Zashoomin

defqon said:


> Is this the KSA? I'm guessing it will be balanced Dynahi > balanced KSA > balanced b22.


 
 Ya it is the KSA...well a clone but yes KSA.  The KSA will be single ended but the Beta and Dynahi will be balanced so I don't know how the KSA will do against the other two.  Because the boards on the KSA are so big and expensive to populate I think that going just 1 board will be the most logical thing to do.


----------



## molika

would the woo wa2 be a good compromise amp for the hd800 and lcd 2.2. i have briefly heard the hd800 with the wa2 and it sounded very good. however not so good with my soloist. on the other hand the lcd2 pairs very well with the soloist to my ears. i dont want to have 2 amps so trying to find one that compliments both headphones. anyone had any experience with the lcd 2 with the wa2 and the soloist that can offer an opinion. cheers


----------



## kahldog

dannybuoy said:


> Having went through 5 different dac amp combos on my lcds I can tell you I kept looking for more power until I got to the audio-gd nfb6. I went from yamamoto ha-01 single ended triode, to woo wa6se, to violectric v181, to audio gd- nfb6. I finally felt like I had the dynamics I liked once I was in the 4 to 5 watt range. I also went through several dacs to get to the audio-gd nfb1.32 which I love. So, I reached a point of happiness about a year ago, and have not changed anything since.


 

 That is great that you have been happy with your system for a year now! For me I think the WOW factor is dissipating a little with my Sophia Electric Baby. I hate when this happens as my mind starts to wander thinking there must be something better available. I have been looking at some SET amps with 300B and 2A3 tubes as well as EL34's. I truly wish there was a place near me where you could take your phones and demo different equipment, before laying out your money with the possibility of being disappointed with your new purchase. I guess part of this is what keeps it interesting and fun.


----------



## kahldog

grindingthud said:


> The Krell KSA-5 Clone is an outstanding LCD-2 amp. Super transparent and fast, not too bright. Dead black silent. It will drive the LCD-2 well beyond listenable levels with no signs of clipping. Class A.


 

 This sounds very much like what I experienced with my Music Fidelity M1HPA. However, when I heard my MF in comparison to the Sophia Baby, the Baby had just so much more Musical sound to it if that makes any sense. Although the MF sounded great with the dead black background and clarity it just sounded more compressed than the Sophia if that is the correct word to describe it. Maybe it is just that midrange bloom with tubes that I enjoy. I also found the bass more musical and highs much more extended with Sophia. I can't seem to find the right words to describe my experience but the MF sounded sterile, somewhat compressed and dry compared to the extended, musical and enjoyable sound of the Sophia. Don't get me wrong the MF M1HPA is one hell of a unit and enjoyable as well.


----------



## DefQon

grindingthud said:


> No need for balanced with LCD-2.2 imho. 28V swing of the KSA single ended is insanely loud. I've heard that Dynahi and KSA are very close, which is why I'd like to hear them side by side.


 
 Oh right forgot it's the LCD2. I did read that KG's post on the other site while back you need balanced KSA to drive the HE-6 to sound acceptable.
  


zashoomin said:


> Ya it is the KSA...well a clone but yes KSA.  The KSA will be single ended but the Beta and Dynahi will be balanced so I don't know how the KSA will do against the other two.  Because the boards on the KSA are so big and expensive to populate I think that going just 1 board will be the most logical thing to do.


 
 Yeh I know it's a clone I'm still waiting for my boards (been for a long time since thingo on the other site is MIA atm). I haven't tried balanced Dynahi before but have built passive, active and balanced configs of the b22 for some of my customers it's definitely getting old in terms of some of the newer stuff is better less effort into diy and such. Still nice amp with the right headphone.


----------



## Zashoomin

defqon said:


> Yeh I know it's a clone I'm still waiting for my boards (been for a long time since thingo on the other site is MIA atm). I haven't tried balanced Dynahi before but have built passive, active and balanced configs of the b22 for some of my customers it's definitely getting old in terms of some of the newer stuff is better less effort into diy and such. Still nice amp with the right headphone.


 
 Ya Little Knight just sent them for me from Vietnam a couple of days ago, so I think that it will be a couple more weeks before I recieve them.  Its ok though because I have enough projects on my plate right now. 
  
 I know what you mean by less effort and whatnot but where is the fun in that?  Overkill is fun and complex is fun.   The more complex, the more challanging , and the more rewarding.  Most people nowadays just ask me to build them cracks, or modified cracks but that is besides the point.


----------



## GrindingThud

Yea, HE-6 would not be an ideal match with KSA5....not enough power or gain. 


defqon said:


> Oh right forgot it's the LCD2. I did read that KG's post on the other site while back you need balanced KSA to drive the HE-6 to sound acceptable.


----------



## Pingfloid

After trying many amps, I've build my own tube amp for the LCD2
  
  

  
 The front panel is still provisional (after one year since I've finished it
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





).

 http://www.head-fi.org/t/645073/the-ultimate-ear-max-pro-morgan-jones-cavalli-sense-g3-amplifier-with-6f8g-big-bottles


----------



## bassboysam

For fun, i tried the LCD-2 with a Fiio E10.  Very pleasantly surprised with how good it sounded to me.


----------



## goldendarko

Good to know. I have a fiio x5 DAP and e12 amp coming. Will have to check it out and see how it powers my lcd-2's


----------



## MRC001

I'm using a 1999 Headroom Maxed out Home to drive LCD-2 rev 2 phones. Audeze recommends 1 watt but I think that is more than than most people need because Audeze's assumptions are conservatively high. The LCD-2 is amazingly efficient for an Ortho, actually play slightly louder at the same voltage than the HD-600s. They're easy to drive and don't need much power, you want a super clean low distortion amp but it doesn't need a ton of power.
  
 Audeze suggests your music has 60 dB of dynamic range. Sure you can invent sounds that have 60 dB or more of dynamic range but the only *music* I know of with 60 dB of dynamic range is something like the Carmina Burana or the 1812 Overture with cannons being fired. In this case if you listen with the quiet parts at 90 dB SPL the loud parts will make your ears bleed and possibly explode your head.
  
 After saying that, Audeze provides a more realistic example: listen at 90 dB with 30 dB of dynamic range.
 Power in dB is 10*log(ratio), here it's equal to 30 dB, so we have ratio = 1,000.
 30 dB louder requires 1,000 times the power so that's 1 milliwatt to 1 Watt.
  
 But listening with the quiet parts at 90 dB SPL is *super freaking loud*. Most people who listen that loud are listening to rock which has a lot less dynamic range (more like 12 dB instead of 30). So let's get realistic: suppose we listen with the quiet parts at 67 dB SPL and there's 30 dB of dynamic range.
 Peaks will be 97 dB SPL.
 The LCD-2 needs 1 mW for 90 dB, so for 97 dB it needs: 10 * log(x) = 7 --> x = 5. That's 5 mW of power. Five milliwatts. That's nothing!
 Now if you really crank it up, suppose you listen with the quiet parts at 80 dB SPL, so peaks are 110 dB SPL. That's ear bleeding loud, but hey...
 That's 20 dB louder than the reference 90 dB @ 1 mW, so we have:
 10 * log(x) = 20 --> x = 100
 So we need 100x more power, which is 100 milliwatts.
 Still nowhere near 1 Watt of power. Any decent solid state headphone amp will put this out nicely, and most tube amps should too.
  
 Of course the amp could run out of current and clip, so how much current would it need?
 The LCD-2 has an impedance of about 50 ohms.
 Power is current squared * impedance, so 0.1 W = i^2 * 50 --> i = 0.044. That's 44 milliAmps. Any decent solid state headphone amp should be able to do this no problem. Even most tube amps should.
  
 Anyone feel free to check my math, but I can say the LCD-2 sounds absolutely freaking great with my Headroom Maxed out Home. It's a beefy little amp with super smooth yet detailed sound, ruler flat response with negligable distortion, perfect for high quality recordings of acoustic music. Those OPA627s are mighty smooth and clean and the little toroidal power supply shows nary a ripple on the DC. I'm not sure where it maxes out in power, but I've bench tested it to about 250 mW and 180 mA of current, at which it has no sign of clipping, all harmonics in spectrum at -85 dB or lower. That's way louder than I will ever need.


----------



## Argo Duck

^ Agreed. I suppose a _possible_ justification for these higher power recommendations - but only as a rule of thumb - might be that amps rated for 'good' (low) distortion at 1-4W are more likely to be "super clean" at the power and current levels _actually_ used by the LCD2. In other words, they're idling.


----------



## illyria

What would be my best bet for an amp/DAC combo with a $750 budget (+/- $100)?
  
 Thank you.


----------



## Zashoomin

illyria said:


> What would be my best bet for an amp/DAC combo with a $750 budget (+/- $100)?
> 
> Thank you.


 
 I would personally look on the for sale forums and get a resonessence labs concero and a schiit mjolnir.  I think you can do that for about $800.  I maybe a bit over budget.


----------



## Argo Duck

^ or substitute a Bushmaster DAC (there's a thread for the mark II with a lot of interesting impressions and some light comparisons. I own the mark I - it's very good).

I think you could get that new and still swing the Mjolnir from the FS forums.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

illyria said:


> What would be my best bet for an amp/DAC combo with a $750 budget (+/- $100)?
> 
> Thank you.


 
  
 CEntrance DACmini !!!
  
 Fantastic with LCD-2 rev1 and rev2, with great power and detail, soundstage, etc


----------



## kahldog

zashoomin said:


> I would personally look on the for sale forums and get a resonessence labs concero and a schiit mjolnir.  I think you can do that for about $800.  I maybe a bit over budget.


 

 I am using a Sophia Electric Baby. I find this amp amazing with my LCD 2's. The midrange is phenomenal as well as the highs and bass. It puts out 10 watts per side in class A and uses 5670 preamp tubes and 6P1T output tubes. You need to use a 8ohm wirewound resistor in parallel with the speaker terminals. It retails for $1000.00usd but I have seen them for as low as 450.00.


----------



## MRC001

illyria said:


> What would be my best bet for an amp/DAC combo with a $750 budget (+/- $100)?
> 
> Thank you.



You can get a used Benchmark DAC 1 on Ebay for that price.


----------



## i019791

illyria said:


> What would be my best bet for an amp/DAC combo with a $750 budget (+/- $100)?
> 
> Thank you.


 
 Audio gd NFB-28


----------



## esmBOS

kahldog said:


> I am using a Sophia Electric Baby. I find this amp amazing with my LCD 2's. The midrange is phenomenal as well as the highs and bass. It puts out 10 watts per side in class A and uses 5670 preamp tubes and 6P1T output tubes. You need to use a 8ohm wirewound resistor in parallel with the speaker terminals. It retails for $1000.00usd but I have seen them for as low as 450.00.


 
 When you say "need to", do you mean need to, as in otherwise you might damage headphones/Sophia, or need to as in otherwise there's too much noise?


----------



## kahldog

esmbos said:


> When you say "need to", do you mean need to, as in otherwise you might damage headphones/Sophia, or need to as in otherwise there's too much noise?


 

 I guess the correct grammar would have been " You Could " leaving the choice to the individual. It serves two purposes that I am aware of.
 1. It did in my case lower the noise floor.
 2. I was advised by Sophia that the amp needs to see a load that it was designed for. According to Audeze the LCD 2 can take a load of 15watts but they did not specify for how long and that the headphones could be directly connected to an amp having an 80 watt into 8ohm output. To the best of my knowledge 80watts into 8ohms would equate to 12.8 watts into 50ohms.
 In closing I have not had any trouble with the Sophia or the LCD 2's using this configuration and find the sound totally amazing. I have compared it directly to my Musical Fidelity M1HPA DAC/headphone amp and while it sounds good it does not hold a candle to the Sophia. I have also tried my LCD's with a Fiio E12 amp and directly out of my RWAK100 Astell Kern player and both sound OK and able to drive the Audeze's to listenable levels but with nowhere near the joy of the Sophia.


----------



## MRC001

kahldog said:


> According to Audeze the LCD 2 can take a load of 15watts but they did not specify for how long and that the headphones could be directly connected to an amp having an 80 watt into 8ohm output. To the best of my knowledge 80watts into 8ohms would equate to 12.8 watts into 50ohms.


 
 I don't understand why you're worried about that. The headphones see only the power corresponding to the volume level you're listening to. It doesn't matter if the amp's maximum output is 1 Watt or 1 kiloWatt, if you're listening at 90 dB SPL, the amp is only putting out 1 milliWatt, and that's what the headphones are seeing.
  
 If you actually ran one full watt of power through the LCD-2 and put them on, the volume level would make your ears bleed!


----------



## kahldog

mrc001 said:


> I don't understand why you're worried about that. The headphones see only the power corresponding to the volume level you're listening to. It doesn't matter if the amp's maximum output is 1 Watt or 1 kiloWatt, if you're listening at 90 dB SPL, the amp is only putting out 1 milliWatt, and that's what the headphones are seeing.
> 
> If you actually ran one full watt of power through the LCD-2 and put them on, the volume level would make your ears bleed!


 

 It sounds like you are itching for some kind of debate but I will not oblige you. Carry on with whatever you want to do and I will do the same. You should take great comfort in the vast amount of knowledge you have.


----------



## MRC001

kahldog said:


> It sounds like you are itching for some kind of debate but I will not oblige you. Carry on with whatever you want to do and I will do the same. You should take great comfort in the vast amount of knowledge you have.


 
 I'm not itching for debate, just don't understand why you're concerned about power levels far beyond what anyone could ever listen to. Whatever amp you want to drive the LCD-2 with, 1 Watt of output is about 10x more than most people will ever use. The LCD-2 is easy to drive and doesn't need much power, which gives you a lot of choices in what amp you use.


----------



## GrindingThud

From the Audeze LCD-2 website undefined the specifications tab.....power handling is rated for 200ms:
http://www.audeze.com/products/headphones/lcd-2
Diaphragm excursion: 2.5 mm peak to peak
Sound pressure level (SPL): 130 db (maximum)
Frequency response: 5 Hz - 20 KHz, usable high-frequency extension of 50 KHz
Impedance: 60 Ohms, purely resistive
Efficiency: 90 dB/1 mW
Maximum power handling: 15 W (for 200 ms)
Optimal power requirement: 1-4 W

What you end up with is a rating that can handle a 10VRMS signal (28V) peak swing (1.6W RMS into the LCD-2)





kahldog said:


> I guess the correct grammar would have been " You Could " leaving the choice to the individual. It serves two purposes that I am aware of.
> 1. It did in my case lower the noise floor.
> 2. I was advised by Sophia that the amp needs to see a load that it was designed for. According to Audeze the LCD 2 can take a load of 15watts but they did not specify for how long and that the headphones could be directly connected to an amp having an 80 watt into 8ohm output. To the best of my knowledge 80watts into 8ohms would equate to 12.8 watts into 50ohms.
> In closing I have not had any trouble with the Sophia or the LCD 2's using this configuration and find the sound totally amazing. I have compared it directly to my Musical Fidelity M1HPA DAC/headphone amp and while it sounds good it does not hold a candle to the Sophia. I have also tried my LCD's with a Fiio E12 amp and directly out of my RWAK100 Astell Kern player and both sound OK and able to drive the Audeze's to listenable levels but with nowhere near the joy of the Sophia.


----------



## kahldog

grindingthud said:


> From the Audeze LCD-2 website undefined the specifications tab.....power handling is rated for 200ms:
> http://www.audeze.com/products/headphones/lcd-2
> Diaphragm excursion: 2.5 mm peak to peak
> Sound pressure level (SPL): 130 db (maximum)
> ...


 

 Thanks. That is great information and hopefully lifts some of the veil off the topic. There are a number of threads on here regarding voltage divider networks for connecting the LCD 2's
 directly to the speakers output terminals of amplifiers. In their most basic form they are a combination of resistors in series and parallel with the speaker outputs to protect the LCD 2 and the amp. Very interesting reading and provides another option, for people to experiment with, in search of a sound "THEY" like.


----------



## zilch0md

headphoneaddict said:


> CEntrance DACmini !!!
> 
> Fantastic with LCD-2 rev1 and rev2, with great power and detail, soundstage, etc




Yes!!


----------



## MRC001

kahldog said:


> Thanks. That is great information and hopefully lifts some of the veil off the topic. There are a number of threads on here regarding voltage divider networks for connecting the LCD 2's
> directly to the speakers output terminals of amplifiers. In their most basic form they are a combination of resistors in series and parallel with the speaker outputs to protect the LCD 2 and the amp. Very interesting reading and provides another option, for people to experiment with, in search of a sound "THEY" like.


 
 Ah, so that's what you're doing? With an 8 ohm resistor in parallel with the LCD-2 headphones, you're not only changing the load impedance closer to what the tube amp wants to see, which is important since tube amps are much more load sensitive than transistor amps, but you're also absorbing a lot of the power in that resistor. With 8 ohms in parallel with 50, the resistor is absorbing about 86% of the power, the LCD-2 are getting only about 14% of the power. And that's why you're talking about power levels beyond what the LCD-2 alone can handle.
  
 That's interesting, though it makes me curious, if you want that tubilicious sound why not simply use a tube headphone amp? It would have lower power output and designed for higher impedance loads so you wouldn't need resistors across the output?


----------



## kahldog

mrc001 said:


> Ah, so that's what you're doing? With an 8 ohm resistor in parallel with the LCD-2 headphones, you're not only changing the load impedance closer to what the tube amp wants to see, which is important since tube amps are much more load sensitive than transistor amps, but you're also absorbing a lot of the power in that resistor. With 8 ohms in parallel with 50, the resistor is absorbing about 86% of the power, the LCD-2 are getting only about 14% of the power. And that's why you're talking about power levels beyond what the LCD-2 alone can handle.
> 
> That's interesting, though it makes me curious, if you want that tubilicious sound why not simply use a tube headphone amp? It would have lower power output and designed for higher impedance loads so you wouldn't need resistors across the output?


 

 I guess I was just adapting to what I owned already. After reading some of the posts on here I thought I would explore this option. I already owned the Musical Fidelity M1HPA and the Fii0 E12 headphone amps neither one tube and wanted to give it a try. I was nervous at first due to my ignorance on the topic but found the courage to give it a try, based on what I had read, and am really happy with the outcome.
 I do not have a strong background in electronics and am by no means an expert in the field. I guess that is why I come to these forums to learn from others who share their knowledge and opinions.
 I sincerely wish I had an unlimited budget which would allow me to try every piece I could get my hands on. For now I have to pursue my hobby based on the budget I have. It is still fun.


----------



## MRC001

kahldog said:


> I guess I was just adapting to what I owned already. After reading some of the posts on here I thought I would explore this option. I already owned the Musical Fidelity M1HPA and the Fii0 E12 headphone amps neither one tube and wanted to give it a try. I was nervous at first due to my ignorance on the topic but found the courage to give it a try, based on what I had read, and am really happy with the outcome.
> I do not have a strong background in electronics and am by no means an expert in the field. I guess that is why I come to these forums to learn from others who share their knowledge and opinions.
> I sincerely wish I had an unlimited budget which would allow me to try every piece I could get my hands on. For now I have to pursue my hobby based on the budget I have. It is still fun.


 

 About 15 years ago I had a Wheatfield HA-2. It's an OTL design. It had a great tubey musical liquid midrange with the HD-580 and HD-600 headphones. Not sure whether it can handle the LCD-2 at 50 Ohms. You can find 'em used, and Pete Millett (guy who designed it) made the design public on his site so anyone so inclined can build one himself.
 http://www.pmillett.com/wheatfield/ha2.htm


----------



## Argo Duck

I followed the speaker amps for headphones thread for a while. One motivation seemed to be that high quality speaker amps can be bought for less than 'similar' quality hp amps. I suppose the reputedly hard-to-drive HE6 may have started it all.

Whilst happy with my built-for-hp amps I was curious enough to try my two speaker amps with my LCD 2. There's no doubt they sounded great and interestingly the softer transients of one of the two was more obvious through the LCD than through speakers.


----------



## SP Wild

mrc001 said:


> I don't understand why you're worried about that. The headphones see only the power corresponding to the volume level you're listening to. It doesn't matter if the amp's maximum output is 1 Watt or 1 kiloWatt, if you're listening at 90 dB SPL, the amp is only putting out 1 milliWatt, and that's what the headphones are seeing.
> 
> If you actually ran one full watt of power through the LCD-2 and put them on, the volume level would make your ears bleed!


 
  
 Why do people keep bringing up the sensitivity and using this as a guideline for music power?  It does not make sense.  The standard for measuring sensitivity is with a singular sine wave at 1 khz.  If you wanna enjoy a 1 khz sinewave at 90 db than 1 milliwatt is just fine.
  
 1 freakin khz...correct me if I am wrong, but I am certain any sound has more than a singular khz? I think music might have up to 2 more extra khz, bringing the grand total to about 3 indivdual khz's.  So really we need about 3 milliwatts to drive the additional 2 extra khz's as found in modern music.
  
 I think FM radio uses even more khz's to push the khz's through the air...they use tubes to accomplish this.  That is why I like my tube amp...it is capable of more khz's than I will ever use, y'know - for extra headroom.  Computers have JIGAHERTZES....that's a lot.  I wonder why we don't drive headphones with CPU's?


----------



## jjacq

Alright question. From what I understand the Aune T1 does not drive the LCD-2 that well. I was thinking of getting an O2/ODAC stack instead. Now the problem with this is that I don't want to let go of the Aune T1 tubes just yet since I just got a majority of them that I've been wanting to try. So, I thought of this and I would like some input if it can now drive the LCD-2 well:
  
 Computer > Aune T1 (as a Tube DAC) > O2 > LCD-2
  
 If so, that'll be so great. I think I will sell the Aune eventually and get an ODAC but I really do want to try different tubes for now.


----------



## kahldog

sp wild said:


> Why do people keep bringing up the sensitivity and using this as a guideline for music power?  It does not make sense.  The standard for measuring sensitivity is with a singular sine wave at 1 khz.  If you wanna enjoy a 1 khz sinewave at 90 db than 1 milliwatt is just fine.
> 
> 1 freakin khz...correct me if I am wrong, but I am certain any sound has more than a singular khz? I think music might have up to 2 more extra khz, bringing the grand total to about 3 indivdual khz's.  So really we need about 3 milliwatts to drive the additional 2 extra khz's as found in modern music.
> 
> I think FM radio uses even more khz's to push the khz's through the air...they use tubes to accomplish this.  That is why I like my tube amp...it is capable of more khz's than I will ever use, y'know - for extra headroom.  Computers have JIGAHERTZES....that's a lot.  I wonder why we don't drive headphones with CPU's?


 

 Sounds like your quite frustrated by the ineptitudes of others. I found in life the more perfect I became the worse other people appeared to me and their foolishness became intolerable.
 Did you ever consider gardening as a hobby instead?


----------



## MRC001

sp wild said:


> Why do people keep bringing up the sensitivity and using this as a guideline for music power?  It does not make sense.  The standard for measuring sensitivity is with a singular sine wave at 1 khz.  If you wanna enjoy a 1 khz sinewave at 90 db than 1 milliwatt is just fine.
> 
> 1 freakin khz...correct me if I am wrong, but I am certain any sound has more than a singular khz? I think music might have up to 2 more extra khz, bringing the grand total to about 3 indivdual khz's.  So really we need about 3 milliwatts to drive the additional 2 extra khz's as found in modern music.
> 
> I think FM radio uses even more khz's to push the khz's through the air...they use tubes to accomplish this.  That is why I like my tube amp...it is capable of more khz's than I will ever use, y'know - for extra headroom.  Computers have JIGAHERTZES....that's a lot.  I wonder why we don't drive headphones with CPU's?


 

 I was going to say you're confusing frequency with power, but it sounds like you're just being sarcastic.
  
 You're right that pure 1 kHz tones don't exist in nature. But even though we don't listen to pure 1 kHz tones, sensitivity measurements are still useful. A real musical signal with full spectrum bandwidth at the same amplitude as the 1 kHz wave, will require more power. But it will also be louder than 90 dB. Conversely, a real musical signal with full spectrum bandwidth at 90 dB SPL, would have less amplitude than a pure 1 kHz tone at 90 dB SPL. Either way, the sensitivity measurement is a useful guide - not perfect but useful - to how much power you need for a given listening level.


----------



## montanari

Audeze sound even from the iphone
 ...
 but it s seat, slow..
  
 it s all matter how you want to listen and how far you want to go


----------



## SP Wild

kahldog said:


> Sounds like your quite frustrated by the ineptitudes of others. I found in life the more perfect I became the worse other people appeared to me and their foolishness became intolerable.
> Did you ever consider gardening as a hobby instead?


 
  
 Ya, I did try gardening...I found a seed in my grass...it is legal to grow 1 plant for personal use.  What the heck...I put this seed on wet cotton and put the cotton in a small puddle of water in a dish and put it on the window sill for sunlight.  To my surprise, the next time I remembered about it, I checked and it had split and was beginning to sprout.  I picked up the dish for a closer look and spilled the seed on the floor...when I went to pick it up...it was really soft and I squished it...it did not grow anymore after that. 
  
 I was so happy to have become a father...then so sad to have killed my baby with my own bare hands.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 But I agree with you, it is tough being a product of perfection...when I'm not killing my own children.


----------



## mmlogic

Luxman 38FDII + AUDEZE LCD2 sound as great as they look.


----------



## Adamora

Quote:


mmlogic said:


> Luxman 38FDII + AUDEZE LCD2 sound as great as they look.


 
  
 Few things in this world make me stare for 10 minutes straight in awe.


----------



## jjacq

I was wondering if anyone has a single DAC/AMP device that they use for the LCD-2. Was thinking of the Matrix Mini-I Pro but I heard the amp is not that good for it. I would like to ask for input, thanks!


----------



## montanari

burson conductor works very well with


----------



## jjacq

montanari said:


> burson conductor works very well with


 
 Thanks for the reply. I was just looking at the HA-160DS and HA-160D, is the DS rare or something? I can't seem to find it sold anywhere.

 EDIT: Nm seems like the Conductor is the best choice! Thank you.


----------



## MRC001

montanari said:


> burson conductor works very well with


 

 I'm curious how the Burson compares with the Benchmark DAC1 or the Grace M902.
 Objectively, it's hard to imagine any DAC or headphone amp having better measurements than the DAC1.
 Yet subjectively, that doesn't mean they sound the same.
 And personal preferences are important too. Not everyone wants the pure unadulterated sound of a live mic feed. Some like a touch of warmth, tubilicious midrange, or other types of euphonics.


----------



## montanari

i don t know the Benchmark and the grace
 maybe as a standalone dac the Benchmark is better than the sabre in the conductor..
 but you should think as a combo, and the conductor has a very good dac ) iprefer it over the conceroHD) and an amzing headphone (the soloist)


----------



## kahldog

I have used the Musical Fidelity M1HPA with the LCD 2's and it sounds great. Stereophile gave it a Class A rating and it gets amazing reviews. It has a dead quiet background and is very neutral sounding through its entire bandwith. It just happens that I prefer the sound of tubes and use my Sophia Electric Baby with my HRT Music Streamer ii +.


----------



## PTom

I'm trying to compile a list of the most widely recommended amps for the LCD 2 within different price ranges. From what I've read, this is what I've got so far:
  
 Below $2000:
  
 - Burson Conductor (DAC/amp)
 - Beta 22
  
 Below $1000:
  
 - Meier Concerto 
 - Schiit Mjonir
- Audio GD NFB 28 (DAC/amp)
  
 Below $200:
  
 - O2
  
 Any more widely recommended amps for the LCD 2? i.e. amps that have been tried by a large number of HeadFiers with the LCD 2 and frequently and repeatedly recommended on the forums for the LCD 2.


----------



## Argo Duck

^ Below $2000 add *Decware Taboo* mk II and/or mk III. Among tube users this has a small but strong following.

Below $1000 *Meier Classic* and I _think_ the older Violectrics V100, V181 and *V200* all fall in this range. The V200 seems to have many happy LCD2 owners. I think *one of the Little Dot tube amps* fits here too but I don't know the specific model. IIRC DefQon used to recommend it.


----------



## Zashoomin

argo duck said:


> ^ Below $2000 add *Decware Taboo* mk II and/or mk III. Among tube users this has a small but strong following.
> 
> Below $1000 *Meier Classic* and I _think_ the older Violectrics V100, V181 and *V200* all fall in this range. The V200 seems to have many happy LCD2 owners. I think *one of the Little Dot tube amps* fits here too but I don't know the specific model. IIRC DefQon used to recommend it.


 
 The only Little Dots that I think are worth considering are the MKVI+ and MKVIII.  I have been lusting over the Taboo MKIII for a while now.  It is an amazing AMP for the LCD's.  The wait time for it is about 2 months after you order it form Decware though.  


ptom said:


> I'm trying to compile a list of the most widely recommended amps for the LCD 2 within different price ranges. From what I've read, this is what I've got so far:
> 
> Below $2000:
> 
> ...


 
 Under $2000 I would also add a Dynahi, if you can fine one that is.  I highly recommend the Beta, that is what I am using.  Also the LD amps mentioned above.
  
 Under $1000 I would honestly not consider anything other than the Mjolnir.  I just blows the other amps out of the water at that price.  I used to not be a fan but I got a chance to really sit down with it and it blew me away. 
  
 Below $200  I think the Magni sounds better than the O2.  Also I would consider the Vali.


----------



## MRC001

In the below $1000 range I would add any Headroom "max" amp (or "maxed out Home", which has the same excellent internals as the Max without the fancy box). They're not made anymore but they occasionally show up on eBay. In their day they cost 1-3 kilobucks but they sell in the $500 to $1k range used on eBay - if you can find one; they last forever and most of the owners don't want to part with them. FWIW, in its day, the Headroom Max was on the Stereophile class A list.
  
 The maxed out home or MOH is what I use for my LCD-2s and since I got the LCD-2s recently I find myself staying up way past my bedtime every night rediscovering recordings I've already heard many times over the years. As for character, the MOH doesn't have much of its own and to my ears that's a good thing. It's a simple design built with top quality internals and has a neutral sound - you hear whatever is in the recording, for better or for worse, all the way down to subtle details like musicians breathing, the piano bench creaking as the player moves slightly, or HVAC turning on or off outside the studio. Stuff that most amps and headphones just don't resolve.
  
 Prior to the MOH I had the regular Headroom "home". It was a great amp with wonderfully neutral voicing but I couldn't recommend it for serious audiophiles because it lacked that last milliscrump of detail in the mids and treble, which I find to be a common though subtle shortcoming of solid state amps. I tried a Wheatfield HA-2 (SET OTL by Pete Millet), and it had the wonderful mids and treble I sought but it didn't have the deep bass grip and absolute dead silent S/N of the Home. That's what led me to the MOH to find the best of both worlds. The MOH midrange doesn't have that tubalicious sound of the HA-2 but it does have all the detail and clarity of the tubes without a hint of grain or brightness.
  
 The MOH is not super powerful but it does have enough power to drive the LCD-2 (and the HE-500 which is significantly less efficient than the LCD-2) to levels beyond what my ears can take before it shows any sign of distortion. I listen to acoustic music around 70-80 dB SPL and my ears start distorting around 100 so super high power levels are academic to me. I like to listen to acoustic music at about the same level one hears it live, because that's the only way it sounds realistic, because FR of human hearing changes with volume level. Incidentally, that's why level matching is so important when comparing audio equipment, but that's a whole differen subject.


----------



## i019791

ptom said:


> I'm trying to compile a list of the most widely recommended amps for the LCD 2 within different price ranges. From what I've read, this is what I've got so far:
> 
> Below $2000:
> 
> ...


 
 Mixing amps with dac/amps complicates things, I think
 I would put:
  Burson Soloist (instead of Conductor)
 Audio gd SA-31SE or NFB-6 or Master 9 (instead of NFB-28)
 I would also add Lake People G-109 to the list


----------



## vkalia

+1 to Audio-GD SA31SE.   And also the Schiit Lyr.    
  
 I've tried the Bakoon separately, and while it wasnt a direct A/B test, I didnt hear enough of a difference between that the the SA31SE to make me want to upgrade.    The SA31SE is a damn good amp, period.


----------



## PTom

So the updated list of the most widely recommended amps for the LCD 2 within different price ranges is:
  
 Below $2000:
  
 - Auralic Taurus
 - Beta 22
 - Burson Soloist
 - Burson Conductor (DAC/amp)
 - Bryston BHA-1
 - Decware Taboo MK II/MK III
 - M2tech Marley
  
 Below $1000:
  
 - Audio GD SA31SE/MFB 6/Master 9
 - Audio GD NFB 28 (DAC/amp)
 - Centrance DACmini (DAC/Amp)
 - Lake People G109
 - Little Dot  MKVI+/MKVIII
 - Meier Concerto/Classic
 - Nuforce Icon DAC (DAC/amp)
 - Schiit Mjonir/Lyr
 - Violectric V200 
 - Yulong A18
  
 Below $200:
  
 - O2
 - Schiit Magni/Vali
  
 As mentioned before, I'm looking for the *most widely recommended *amps for the LCD 2. Any more suggestions? Are there any in the above list that should be removed since they are not universally praised with the LCD 2 or are uncommon?
  
Update
  
 Added: 
  
 - Bryston BH1
 - Auralic Taurus
 - M2tech Marley
 - Yulong A18
 - Decware Taboo MK II/MK III
 - Nuforce Icon DAC 
 - Centrance DACmini (DAC/Amp)


----------



## G600

I would say Mjolnir below 1000$ and Bryston BHA-1 below 2000$, if you are looking for some kind of consensus.


----------



## montanari

You forgot
Bryston bh1
Auralic taurus
M2tech marley
(Balanced amps seem provide a better sinergy But I never tried )


----------



## montanari

Someone say yolung a18 as well


----------



## PTom

Ok, I've added:
  
 - Bryston BH1
 - Auralic Taurus
 - M2tech Marley
 - Yulong A18
  
 Any more to add or maybe any controversial ones that should be removed from the list?


----------



## levinhatz

+1 for the Little Dot MK VI+.

I love the tube sound with the LCD2. The LD can be a very neutral amp with the right tube, and the improvements to soundstage/imaging/dynamics are immense. I have heard but cannot confirm, that the VI+ is better than the VIII+ for the LCD2.

Also, I can say that I've tried the Mjo, the V200, and the MKVI+, and I preferred the MKVI+.


----------



## montanari

but i wrote the conductor because you were asking for a dac/amp
 actually the amp section of the conductor is exactly a soloist
 ..


----------



## G600

levinhatz said:


> +1 for the Little Dot MK VI+.
> 
> I love the tube sound with the LCD2. The LD can be a very neutral amp with the right tube, and the improvements to soundstage/imaging/dynamics are immense. I have heard but cannot confirm, that the VI+ is better than the VIII+ for the LCD2.


 
 That's my daily rig and I enjoy it very much !
 I've tweaked the VI+ by the way (coupling caps + 5W resistor) and it's big improvements to LCD-2 became huge.
 A no brainer below 1000$ for me (spare some for tube rolling and maybe amp tweaks).
 Don't forget you must go balanced with it, it's poor on SE input/outputs.


----------



## GrindingThud

Don't forget the KSA5 clone.....or the real one.


----------



## PTom

I'm trying to get more information on the KSA5 clone. What price range is it and is it widely praised with the LCD 2? Isn't it a DIY amp? Regarding the original, isn't it super rare and super expensive?


----------



## Zashoomin

ptom said:


> I'm trying to get more information on the KSA5 clone. What price range is it and is it widely praised with the LCD 2? Isn't it a DIY amp? Regarding the original, isn't it super rare and super expensive?


 
 The price range depends on the if it is original or a clone.  The original is really expensive and really rare to find while the DIY one can range in price greatly.  I think you are looking at a minimum of $750-$2000 for someone to build it for you.  I think in parts you can get away with $400.  It does sound amazing though.


----------



## GrindingThud

It's a DIY much like the Beta22 already on the list but without a large following yet. A self build should be between 700 and 1000 depending on case quality. The original is rare and expensive. Widely praised.....not yet. I don't think there are enough of them out there yet, so maybe that disqualifies it from the list. 



ptom said:


> I'm trying to get more information on the KSA5 clone. What price range is it and is it widely praised with the LCD 2? Isn't it a DIY amp? Regarding the original, isn't it super rare and super expensive?


----------



## SilverEars

How the hell did I not run into this thread?
  
 Hi, I'm a new LCD 2.2 owner.  
  
 I just received HE-6 today, man is it hard to drive even with Beta 22 2 channel.


----------



## Zashoomin

silverears said:


> How the hell did I not run into this thread?
> 
> Hi, I'm a new LCD 2.2 owner.
> 
> I just received HE-6 today, man is it hard to drive even with Beta 22 2 channel.


 
 For an HE-6 I think you will need 4 channels out into balanced operation.


----------



## SilverEars

zashoomin said:


> For an HE-6 I think you will need 4 channels out into balanced operation.


 
 The Beta has enough juice to drive the HE-6 to potential from what I'm experiencing.  I say it's seems hard to drive is because I'm used to comfortable volume level to listen to at pi/2


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

ptom said:


> So the updated list of the most widely recommended amps for the LCD 2 within different price ranges is:
> 
> Below $2000:
> 
> ...


 
  
 Add the Nuforce Icon DAC as being truly great with the LCD-2 rev2, and during the close to half-price sale it's only $199


----------



## PTom

I've added it but is it widely recommended? Or is it one of those amps with a small passionate following?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

ptom said:


> I've added it but is it widely recommended? Or is it one of those amps with a small passionate following?


 
  
 Small passionate following, started by me.  I've got a lot of great amps here, some costing $3K, but sometimes you just want a quick to use solid state DAC/amp that doesn't need a lot of warmup time and costs a fraction of the big dogs.
  
 I've just noticed the DACmini is missing from the under $1000 list, and that one's been widely known to be good with LCD-2. Not a small following.


----------



## montanari

CAVALLI AUDIO
 REDWINE AUDIO
 (up to 2000)


----------



## Loquah

Just saw this thread. Would anyone care to second the Bottlehead SEX as a great option?


----------



## PTom

montanari said:


> CAVALLI AUDIO
> REDWINE AUDIO
> (up to 2000)


 
 Any specific amps?


----------



## levinhatz

g600 said:


> I've tweaked the VI+ by the way (coupling caps + 5W resistor) and it's big improvements to LCD-2 became huge.


 
  
 Would you like to elaborate on what you did? Was it difficult? Expensive? And what types of improvements did you get?
  
 Thanks.


----------



## Zashoomin

loquah said:


> Just saw this thread. Would anyone care to second the Bottlehead SEX as a great option?


 
 I would.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.  I owned one though and traded it up for a Beta22.  The SEX was an amazing amp though.  Loved mine.


----------



## Loquah

zashoomin said:


> I would.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I'm currently hot-rodding my SEX (attenuator, coupling caps and output caps) just for my new LCD 2s


----------



## Zashoomin

loquah said:


> I'm currently hot-rodding my SEX (attenuator, coupling caps and output caps) just for my new LCD 2s


 
 Do you have the C4S upgrade in there as well?  That makes it sound so much better.


----------



## Loquah

zashoomin said:


> Do you have the C4S upgrade in there as well?  That makes it sound so much better.


 
  
 Absolutely!


----------



## d marc0

Hi guys, I need some advice please...
  
 Has anyone tried the LCD v2.2 with JDSlabs C5? I just need confirmation if the amp can drive this headphone properly.
  
 Cheers!


----------



## Zashoomin

d marc0 said:


> Hi guys, I need some advice please...
> 
> Has anyone tried the LCD v2.2 with JDSlabs C5? I just need confirmation if the amp can drive this headphone properly.
> 
> Cheers!


 
 Audeze highly suggests at least 1W into 50ohms.  so that it can drive the heaphones without clipping.  the C5 does not have enough power for that. Many people like to play the lcd2's off of cheap amps but I personally think that if you are going to buy a $1000 pair of headphones it deserves much better than a $200 amp.


----------



## Loquah

d marc0 said:


> Hi guys, I need some advice please...
> 
> Has anyone tried the LCD v2.2 with JDSlabs C5? I just need confirmation if the amp can drive this headphone properly.
> 
> Cheers!


 
  
 Perhaps consider adding an E12 / E12DIY to your collection. It drives the LCD 2s nicely according to a Head-fier who sold me his.


----------



## goldendarko

loquah said:


> Perhaps consider adding an E12 / E12DIY to your collection. It drives the LCD 2s nicely according to a Head-fier who sold me his.




+1. The E12 drives the lcd-2.2 almost as well as my Burson conductor did though I just sold my lcd-2s. It puts out a hefty 880mW so almost the 1 Watt audeze recommendation too. Don't think you can beat its capabilities for the price as I picked mine up for only $100 and had been using it with my X5 DAP.


----------



## goldendarko

Dang, just realized you were referring to me that sold you the lcd-2. Guess we follow the same threads, haha!


----------



## MRC001

zashoomin said:


> Audeze highly suggests at least 1W into 50ohms.  so that it can drive the heaphones without clipping.  the C5 does not have enough power for that. Many people like to play the lcd2's off of cheap amps but I personally think that if you are going to buy a $1000 pair of headphones it deserves much better than a $200 amp.


 

 This came up earlier in the thread, but I'll summarize that Audeze's power recommendations are ridiculously high. 1 watt into the LCD-2 would be over 120 dB which will melt your ears. Nobody can listen that loud without hearing damage. I believe Audeze does this on the assumption that if the amp can put out 1 watt then it will be very clean at the lower power levels people actually use. But that's not necessarily true, and if you do the math 100 mW will have plenty of headroom for any volume level that won't damage your hearing. This gives you a lot more options for a headphone amp. If you follow Audeze's 1W recommendation you'll miss out on some really clean great sounding headphone amps.
  
 That said, the C5 is not a good choice for the LCD-2 primarily because at that price point it's simply impossible to have the quality of internal parts and design that will do justice to a headphone as transparent as the LCD-2. The C5 is also underpowered - it can only deliver about 45 mW to a 50 Ohm load. That's pitifully weak.


----------



## Loquah

mrc001 said:


> This came up earlier in the thread, but I'll summarize that Audeze's power recommendations are ridiculously high. 1 watt into the LCD-2 would be over 120 dB which will melt your ears. Nobody can listen that loud without hearing damage. I believe Audeze does this on the assumption that if the amp can put out 1 watt then it will be very clean at the lower power levels people actually use. But that's not necessarily true, and if you do the math 100 mW will have plenty of headroom for any volume level that won't damage your hearing. This gives you a lot more options for a headphone amp. If you follow Audeze's 1W recommendation you'll miss out on some really clean great sounding headphone amps.
> 
> That said, the C5 is not a good choice for the LCD-2 primarily because at that price point it's simply impossible to have the quality of internal parts and design that will do justice to a headphone as transparent as the LCD-2. The C5 is also underpowered - it can only deliver about 45 mW to a 50 Ohm load. That's pitifully weak.


 
  
 I believe the reason for the 1W recommendation is more about ability to have sufficient current available rather than requiring it for sheer sound pressure output because you're correct that not-one needs that level out of headphones.


----------



## Loquah

goldendarko said:


> Dang, just realized you were referring to me that sold you the lcd-2. Guess we follow the same threads, haha!


 
  
 LOL I thought you were just trying to stay anonymous!


----------



## d marc0

Thank you guys! I've learned a lot. I guess I'll have to secure a more capable amp to properly review the LCD v2.2. Unfortunately I don't really need another amp as I mainly have IEMs for personal use. I will work on other possible options...

Thanks again!


----------



## Zashoomin

loquah said:


> I believe the reason for the 1W recommendation is more about ability to have sufficient current available rather than requiring it for sheer sound pressure output because you're correct that not-one needs that level out of headphones.


 
 +1.


----------



## MRC001

loquah said:


> I believe the reason for the 1W recommendation is more about ability to have sufficient current available rather than requiring it for sheer sound pressure output because you're correct that not-one needs that level out of headphones.



Possible, but Audeze gives a different explanation. They give an example of listening with quiet parts at 90dB with 30dB dynamic peaks to 120dB. If anyone did this he wouldn't be an audiophile for long because he'd go deaf.

The current requirements are easy to determine. 100mW into 50 ohms takes 45 mA, which any decent headphone amp can do easily.

The LCD-2 is an easy headphone to drive. The critical requirement for an amp is quality, not output power.


----------



## Loquah

mrc001 said:


> Possible, but Audeze gives a different explanation. They give an example of listening with quiet parts at 90dB with 30dB dynamic peaks to 120dB. If anyone did this he wouldn't be an audiophile for long because he'd go deaf.
> 
> The current requirements are easy to determine. 100mW into 50 ohms takes 45 mA, which any decent headphone amp can do easily.
> 
> The LCD-2 is an easy headphone to drive. The critical requirement for an amp is quality, not output power.


 
  
 Interesting that Audeze say that.
  
 I've been wondering about all this with the HE-500s because they definitely seem to benefit from more power - the sound becomes fuller and better controlled, but going strictly by the numbers there should be no reason for this improvement. I don't fully understand what's going on with planars and their apparent need for power.


----------



## MRC001

mrc001 said:


> Possible, but Audeze gives a different explanation. They give an example of listening with quiet parts at 90dB with 30dB dynamic peaks to 120dB. If anyone did this he wouldn't be an audiophile for long because he'd go deaf.
> 
> The current requirements are easy to determine. 100mW into 50 ohms takes 45 mA, which any decent headphone amp can do easily.
> 
> The LCD-2 is an easy headphone to drive. The critical requirement for an amp is quality, not output power.







loquah said:


> Interesting that Audeze say that.
> 
> I've been wondering about all this with the HE-500s because they definitely seem to benefit from more power - the sound becomes fuller and better controlled, but going strictly by the numbers there should be no reason for this improvement. I don't fully understand what's going on with planars and their apparent need for power.



The HE-500 are less efficient than the LCD-2, needing 2.5x the power and 3x the current for the same Volume.

Also, level matched listening is critical when comparing. A more powerful amp can play louder, and the same sound played louder sounds fuller and richer, not just louder.


----------



## Poladise

mrc001 said:


> Also, level matched listening is critical when comparing. A more powerful amp can play louder, and the same sound played louder sounds fuller and richer, not just louder.


 
  
 Surely the many reports of a more full and rich sound arent all due to comparing at a level the lower amp struggles at, because it doesnt take much power to push the phones loud. I tried my LCDs from a 30W Naim speaker amp (4.8W @ 50 ohm) and compared to LD i+, LD mk iii, O2 and RWA corvina, the Naim had a really full and effortless sound. I'm aware that could just be the components of the amp, but I cant help thinking the extra 4+ watts on tap have something to do with it.
 Have you tried and an amp that can put over 2W into the LCD-2s?


----------



## MRC001

poladise said:


> Surely the many reports of a more full and rich sound arent all due to comparing at a level the lower amp struggles at, because it doesnt take much power to push the phones loud.


 
 It's often the case that lower powered amps (such as the C5 mentioned earlier) are of inferior design and build quality, so they sound worse. But not always. For example Headroom made some well designed and built great sounding amps that max out around 250 mW of power. Within their rated power, they have better measurements and sound quality than more powerful amps. If you're listening at levels equal or less than the amp's rated power output, the way the amp is designed and built is far more important than its rated power output.
  
 Human perception gets interesting near the threshold of audibility. When two sounds are so close you can barely tell them apart, the actual differences are perceived as something different from what they really are. I've read about (and done myself) level controlled double blind tests where one clip was exactly the same in every way except 0.5 dB quieter than the other. The only difference is in how loud the clip is, but it's perceived not as a difference in volume, but in space or richness.
  
 This frequently reveals itself in subjective reviews of audio equipment. For example, a company makes their CD player output 0.5 dB louder than another. When reviewers A/B compare them, the reviewer perceives this tiny difference in volume as sounding slightly more rich, more full, and glows about a "veil lifted from the music". It's not a placebo effect - the reviewer is definitely hearing a real difference. But what he's hearing is not what he thinks it is.
  
 I'm not against high powered amps at all. All I'm saying is the LCD-2 doesn't need a full Watt of power so don't overlook an otherwise great headphone amp just because its rated power is less than a full Watt.


----------



## SilverEars

Guys how about the mass produced SS receiver amps? They should have high wattage output.  They are produced by companies that can keep prices low.  Not sure how well it will sound, but it's definitely a cheaper option than looking for high wattage headphone amp since it's such a limited space ans will most likely be costlier the more wattage it has.


----------



## sotto123

I'm looking for an amp for my LCD-2 Rev2. I'm currently using my laptop and the ODAC/O2 combination and have narrowed it down to the V200, Soloist SL and Mjolnir.
  
 I don't find my pair to be warm or dark at all, it sounds neutral to me, which is why I'm leaning towards the V200. I'm not interested in listening out for the details in the music, I simply want my music to sound as fun and engaging as possible.
  
 The only thing putting me off the V200 is that I might eventually upgrade to the LCD-3, but that could be many months or a year away considering I only received my pair a few days ago. Then again, I may not even upgrade.
  
 The Soloist SL has its price going for it, and I hear is a decent match with the LCD-3. The Mjolnir is more expensive, which is putting me off it a bit, but it's also not meant to be as warm/laidback or fun sounding as the V200, although it's good to know that it's a good match for the LCD-3.
  
 If you were in my position, which one would you go for, specifically if musicality was the priority? Any chance of what each one does well/badly?
  
 Note: I listen mostly to modern guitar and vocal centric music, so the recording quality isn't the greatest. Focus should be on a richer, fuller sound, a larger soundstage and on the mids.


----------



## MRC001

sotto123 said:


> I'm looking for an amp for my LCD-2 Rev2. ... have narrowed it down to the V200, Soloist SL and Mjolnir. ...
> If you were in my position, which one would you go for, specifically if musicality was the priority? Any chance of what each one does well/badly?


 
 Three great headphone amps, any of which will have no problem driving the LCD-2. The Mjolnir is balanced only. It's easy to convert the LCD-2 to balanced but it makes it cumbersome to switch back and forth side by side with standard unbalanced amps. If I were in your position I'd find a way to listen to all 3 of them side by side. If I couldn't find a local shop, club or friend who has them, I'd buy all 3 from vendors that have good return policies. Trying different equipment for yourself is half the fun of this hobby.
  
 If you value musicality over sonic accuracy, you should listen to some good tube amps. The sound of a good tube amp is magical. It's not my kind of magic, but for people who value "musicality" you gotta hear it before getting a solid state amp.


----------



## Poladise

sotto123 said:


> I'm looking for an amp for my LCD-2 Rev2. I'm currently using my laptop and the ODAC/O2 combination and have narrowed it down to the V200, Soloist SL and Mjolnir.
> 
> I don't find my pair to be warm or dark at all, it sounds neutral to me, which is why I'm leaning towards the V200. I'm not interested in listening out for the details in the music, I simply want my music to sound as fun and engaging as possible.
> 
> ...


 
  
 You’re in the same position as me. I probably chose the ideal amp last year: a Decware Taboo mkiii, but it arrived with a loose volume pot, transformer buzz coming from the amp, hum through the headphones and sounded harsh with very poor bass. They said all due to shipping (UK). I was worried seeing as the amp didn’t survive that journey, maybe it wouldn’t survive the next after repair and I’d be stuck in a game of pass the parcel overseas, so sent back for refund.
  
 I got an epiphany O2 to use while I look for something else. I find LCD2r2 with O2 the same as you: no warmth in the mid range, but I'd say below neutral towards unnatural. I find some tracks actually unpleasant to listen to. Sounds quite ‘grey’ and lifeless. I know how alive the LCD2 can sound though, because I tried a V200 for a while, which filled out the sound with vividness, impact and warmth. Mixed in with that though, was a kind of dull, muddy ‘plastic-y’ quality too, which was too distracting. I have a feeling (hoping) it may have been a slight issue with the unit I demoed, because that’s not what others report.
  
 A musical and powerful sound is what I’m after. I’ve been trying to find something in the UK like the Sophia Electric Baby that ’kahldog’ uses. You might be interested in the same amps I'm considering.
  
*Little Dot VI+* - If these had a UK supplier I'd own one already (might take a gamble)
  
*Icon Audio - Stereo 20 PP *(15W tube speaker amp - should around 2.4W 50 ohm)
*Icon Audio - Stereo 25 MK II* (triode output mode 15W - should around 2.4W 50 ohm)
 Apart the resistors to create the 8 ohm load, hopefully I wont need any more resistors to reduce hiss and affect the power.
  
*Violectric V281 *_-_ We'll see what it's like with LCD-3s because I want to upgrade to those at some point.
  
*Mjolnir *- Just because hearing a powerful clean amp in total control of LCD2s might remove my craving for tube sound. Just got a feeling it might sound a bit unnatural to me though, like I find with the O2 / Soloist.
  
 Anyone know of any other low powered tube speaker amps available in the UK?


----------



## vkalia

^^^    Lyr with Amperex tubes.    I had the original tubes and swapped them out a couple of days ago and oh. my. lord.....


----------



## MRC001

poladise said:


> Anyone know of any other low powered tube speaker amps available in the UK?


 
 The best tube amp I ever heard was a Wheatfield HA-2, designed by Pete Millet. It is a SET OTL design. It's discontinued but Pete has the schematic on his web site for DIY, and they show up for sale occasionally here and on eBay.
 However, I never listened to the LCD-2 on this amp.


----------



## Zashoomin

mrc001 said:


> The best tube amp I ever heard was a Wheatfield HA-2, designed by Pete Millet. It is a SET OTL design. It's discontinued but Pete has the schematic on his web site for DIY, and they show up for sale occasionally here and on eBay.
> However, I never listened to the LCD-2 on this amp.


 
 If it is an OTL amp, I don't think it will have enough currently for the LCD's or any other planar and low impendance headphone.


----------



## Poladise

Not sure what the Wheatfield HA-2 puts out, but the Little Dot Mk VI+ is  an OTL which puts out 5W at 120 ohms.


----------



## Argo Duck

*Poladise* that's a shame about the Taboo - it (the mk II version) and a CSP2+ preamp survived their journies to New Zealand 3 and 2 years ago perfectly. They were well packaged by Decware - tons of bubble wrap; paper and double-boxed. Bad luck, as I find my (neutrally tuned) Taboo superb with both LCD2 and LCD3FZ.

I had no idea the LD VI+ had that much power! I have an LD 1+ hybrid that's a surprisingly great match with Grados.

*MRC001*, great recent posts in this thread and your LCD2 review - outstanding :beer chug:

Edit: I can imagine *vkalla's* Lyr/Amperex recommendation is very good. I found Lyr with stock tubes syrupy with LCD2, but with Matsu tubes it started to show it's potential and it was easy to believe the top picks in the mammoth Lyr tube-rolling thread were good indeed.


----------



## MRC001

zashoomin said:


> If it is an OTL amp, I don't think it will have enough currently for the LCD's or any other planar and low impendance headphone.


 
 You're probably right. The HA-2 has an output impedance of 100 ohms and max rated power is 400 mW into 270 ohms. It was well matched to the Sennheiser HD-600 at 300 ohms but the LCD-2 at 50-60 ohms may not be a good match for it.


----------



## SilverEars

mrc001 said:


> You're probably right. The HA-2 has an output impedance of 100 ohms and max rated power is 400 mW into 270 ohms. It was well matched to the Sennheiser HD-600 at 300 ohms but the LCD-2 at 50-60 ohms may not be a good match for it.


 
 Current delivery will be more since the total impedance is less with the LCD, but I think 600 is more sensitive, so it can react more to less power than the LCD.  These are specs though.  I don't like the low impedance relative to the ouput though(not sure what affect it would have on planars).  I don't think damping factor comes into play for planars since it has no resonance like like dynamic drivers.  So impedance mismatch shouldn't matter?


----------



## MRC001

silverears said:


> Current delivery will be more since the total impedance is less with the LCD, but I think 600 is more sensitive, so it can react more to less power than the LCD.  These are specs though.  I don't like the low impedance relative to the ouput though(not sure what affect it would have on planars).  I don't think damping factor comes into play for planars since it has no resonance like like dynamic drivers.  So impedance mismatch shouldn't matter?


 

 The LCD-2 has slightly higher voltage sensitivity than the HD-600: it plays slightly louder on the same volume setting. That doesn't mean it's more efficient though. It's lower impedance, so at the same voltage it's drawing more current, which means more power.
  
 The problem with driving the LCD-2 with an HA-2 is the LCD-2's low impedance. As a general rule, you want the amp's output impedance to be much lower than the headphone's impedance. That's why tube amps designed to drive speakers usually have an output transformer. The HA-2 is designed without one, because it's relatively low powered and designed to drive headphones 200 ohms and higher, so the OT is not needed, and it only adds complexity and is just one more electrical part to color the sound.
  
 Note: You'll read different opinions on this but I believe damping factor does matter even with orthos. Everything has a resonant frequency, including an ortho's driver membrane. If it flaps back and forth it generates its own voltage just like a dynamic driver does. The amp's output impedance is what the headphone is "driving", and if that impedance is low, it requires more power/current which sucks up the energy faster, damping the motion. If I had to guess why there is some debate on whether damping factor matters for orthos, I'd say an ortho's Q is probably less sharp and the amount of EMF it generates is lower, so damping is less of an issue than it is with a conventional voice coil driver.


----------



## SilverEars

Well, 600 is more sensitive, 97dB/mW for HD600 and 94 for LCD-2.  LCD-2 draws slightly more power, but HD600 provides more dB/mW.


----------



## MRC001

silverears said:


> Well, 600 is more sensitive, 97dB/mW for HD600 and 94 for LCD-2.  LCD-2 draws slightly more power, but HD600 provides more dB/mW.


 
 Sensitivity and efficiency are completely different things. Sensitivity is about voltage, efficiency is about power. To simplify, wensitivity tells you how loud it will be for a given position of the volume knob. Efficiency tells you how much power it's going to draw at that volume knob position.
  
 According to Inner Fidelity, the LCD-2 is more sensitive, but less efficient.
  
 The LCD-2 is more sensitive: the same voltage plays slightly louder.
 LCD-2: 0.225 Vrms for 90 dB
 HD-600: 0.230 Vrms for 90 dB
 The LCD-2 is 0.2 dB more sensitive
  
 The LCD-2 is less efficient: the same power plays quieter.
 LCD-2: 0.87 mW for 90 dB
 HD-600: 0.17 mW for 90 dB
 The LCD-2 is 7.1 dB less efficient
  
 Having compared the LCD-2 and HD-600 side by side, I can tell you the LCD-2 plays a bit louder at the same volume knob position. The specs suggest they're only 0.2 dB different which would not be noticable. But subjectively, the difference sounded much bigger than that; it was quite noticeable. I had to turn it up for the HD-600 and down for the LCD-2, to match the levels.


----------



## SilverEars

Ok, I've gotten efficiency and sensitivity mixed up.  When it comes to volume level and loudness, it's sensitivity.  The volume level is voltage without load. I'm assuming.


----------



## bassboysam

mrc001 said:


> The LCD-2 has slightly higher voltage sensitivity than the HD-600: it plays slightly louder on the same volume setting. That doesn't mean it's more efficient though. It's lower impedance, so at the same voltage it's drawing more current, which means more power.
> 
> The problem with driving the LCD-2 with an HA-2 is the LCD-2's low impedance. As a general rule, you want the amp's output impedance to be much lower than the headphone's impedance. That's why tube amps designed to drive speakers usually have an output transformer. The HA-2 is designed without one, because it's relatively low powered and designed to drive headphones 200 ohms and higher, so the OT is not needed, and it only adds complexity and is just one more electrical part to color the sound.
> 
> Note: You'll read different opinions on this but I believe damping factor does matter even with orthos. Everything has a resonant frequency, including an ortho's driver membrane. If it flaps back and forth it generates its own voltage just like a dynamic driver does. The amp's output impedance is what the headphone is "driving", and if that impedance is low, it requires more power/current which sucks up the energy faster, damping the motion. If I had to guess why there is some debate on whether damping factor matters for orthos, I'd say an ortho's Q is probably less sharp and the amount of EMF it generates is lower, so damping is less of an issue than it is with a conventional voice coil driver.


I've read this type of explanation countless times. I understand the science behind it but no one has ever explained how it affects the sound. and it's pretty much impossible to do any A/B test because you'd need an amp that allows you to set the output impedance, which I've never seen.

Can anyone shed some light?


----------



## SilverEars

bassboysam said:


> I've read this type of explanation countless times. I understand the science behind it but no one has ever explained how it affects the sound. and it's pretty much impossible to do any A/B test because you'd need an amp that allows you to set the output impedance, which I've never seen.
> 
> Can anyone shed some light?


 
 Hey, I don't disagree with you.  We're just talking about specs that's all.  Specs are useful to have a basic idea of the gear.  
  
 I can't do a proper A/B tests myself, but I do try to compare gear as I try to move up when I get a new DAC or Amp.  I swap out DACs with the same Amp, and do the same with Amps, and use my ears to find out which sounds the best.  After all, it's how the setup is heard that you will be enjoying.


----------



## MRC001

bassboysam said:


> ... no one has ever explained how it [damping factor] affects the sound. and it's pretty much impossible to do any A/B test because you'd need an amp that allows you to set the output impedance, which I've never seen.


 
 I mostly agree and mentioned it only as a secondary concern. I believe the primary reason you want the amp's output impedance to be less than the headphone's impedance, is because otherwise its likely to be current limited and clip before reaching reasonable power outputs.


----------



## Loquah

Also, is it safe to assume that headphones have varying efficiency at different frequencies? Would this explain why planars seem to sound more full with more power? I.e. that a more powerful amp can handle less efficiency at lower frequencies?
  
 All just hypothesizing on my part to try and understand better so don't flame me if this isn't the case.


----------



## SilverEars

I believe so if you are talkin phones that have varying impedance on the graph like the dynamics.  Look at planar graphs, it's flat like a resistor(no resonance, no coils?), and phase is flat also.  I agree with more powerful amps not dipping at the low end.  I have never seen portable amps with headphones like LCD or HE-6 being measured, but my guess is that low end will dip based on my experience with portable amps.  I've seen headphones as load on DAPs where the response would skew like crazy, I would guess it would skew on the low end for the big cans.


----------



## MRC001

loquah said:


> Also, is it safe to assume that headphones have varying efficiency at different frequencies? Would this explain why planars seem to sound more full with more power? I.e. that a more powerful amp can handle less efficiency at lower frequencies?


 
 Some headphones do, but the LCD-2 do not. If a headphone has flat frequency response it means its sensitivity is the same at all frequencies. But its efficiency might not be the same at all frequencies - it might not have a flat impedance curve. However, orthos (including the LCD-2) do have a flat impedance curve, so their efficiency curve has the same shape as their sensitivity curve.
  
 Consider the LCD-2: it has flat impedance vs. frequency and also has flat sensitivity vs. frequency. Thus it should require the same power to produce any frequency at the same level.


----------



## Androb

poladise said:


> *Little Dot VI+* - If these had a UK supplier I'd own one already (might take a gamble)


 
 You can't go wrong with that amp. It's amazing!


----------



## d marc0

I can only afford a Schiit MAGNI right now.
 I hope it's good enough for the LCD v2.2.
 Has anyone tried this amp with LCD?


----------



## Loquah

mrc001 said:


> Some headphones do, but the LCD-2 do not. If a headphone has flat frequency response it means its sensitivity is the same at all frequencies. But its efficiency might not be the same at all frequencies - it might not have a flat impedance curve. However, orthos (including the LCD-2) do have a flat impedance curve, so their efficiency curve has the same shape as their sensitivity curve.
> 
> Consider the LCD-2: it has flat impedance vs. frequency and also has flat sensitivity vs. frequency. Thus it should require the same power to produce any frequency at the same level.


 
  
 OK, thanks. I wasn't sure if impedance vs frequency was directly applicable to efficiency as well


----------



## jodgey4

d marc0 said:


> I can only afford a Schiit MAGNI right now.
> I hope it's good enough for the LCD v2.2.
> Has anyone tried this amp with LCD?


 
 As far as I know, it has the most power of any amp in that price range. The LCD-2's are best paired with an amp that can put out between 1 and 4 watts... though these cans are generally forgiving on ideas such as synergy. I'd suggest saving up for something that can do those cans justice.


----------



## MRC001

loquah said:


> OK, thanks. I wasn't sure if impedance vs frequency was directly applicable to efficiency as well


 

 I believe they're related just not directly, based on my basic understanding of EE. EE gurus correct me if I'm wrong:
  
 Consider a hypothetical headphone with flat frequency response and impedance of 50 ohms at 20 Hz and 100 ohms at 1 kHz. The flat freq response means voltage sensitivity is the same at all frequencies. Yet impedance at 20 Hz is half what it is at 100 Hz.
  
 Suppose we give this headphone 1 V at 20 Hz and at 1 kHz and see how much power it draws. At 20 Hz, R is half what it is at 1 kHz, so it draws twice the current. Power is i^2 * R, so twice the current squared is a factor of 4, times half the resistance, is twice the power. This this headphone is half as efficient at 20 Hz as it is at 1 kHz.
  
 Or do the numbers we get the same result: the headphone is half as efficient at 20 Hz as it is at 1 kHz.
 At 20 Hz: i = V / R = 1 / 50 = 0.02 A. P = i^2 * R = 0.02^2 * 50 = 0.02 W.
 At 1 kHz: i = V / R = 1 / 100 = 0.01. P = i^2 * R = 0.01^2 * 100 = 0.01 W.
  
 With the LCD-2, both the sensitivity AND the impedance curves are flat vs. frequency, so its efficiency must be flat vs. frequency as well. Edit: this is an oversimplification because it ignores HRTF. A headphone with subjectively "flat" frequency response must follow the HRTF curve which isn't flat so the headphone cannot have a flat sensitivity vs. frequency response.


----------



## Loquah

mrc001 said:


> I believe they're related just not directly, based on my basic understanding of EE. EE gurus correct me if I'm wrong:
> 
> Consider a hypothetical headphone with flat frequency response and impedance of 50 ohms at 20 Hz and 100 ohms at 1 kHz. The flat freq response means voltage sensitivity is the same at all frequencies. Yet impedance at 20 Hz is half what it is at 100 Hz.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Ah, my confusion was that I don't think I've ever seen a graph of efficiency versus frequency. Or is it called something different?


----------



## SilverEars

mrc001 said:


> I believe they're related just not directly, based on my basic understanding of EE. EE gurus correct me if I'm wrong:
> 
> Consider a hypothetical headphone with flat frequency response and impedance of 50 ohms at 20 Hz and 100 ohms at 1 kHz. The flat freq response means voltage sensitivity is the same at all frequencies. Yet impedance at 20 Hz is half what it is at 100 Hz.
> 
> ...


 
 Yes, since R is constant since the impedance is flat throughout the spectrum.  That means it only depends on voltage even for efficiency, although V^2.  This all depends on if voltage is constant at all frequencies.  
  
 What I'm not understanding is the FR graph not being flat, why is that?


----------



## MRC001

silverears said:


> Yes, since R is constant since the impedance is flat throughout the spectrum.  That means it only depends on voltage even for efficiency, although V^2.  This all depends on if voltage is constant at all frequencies.
> 
> What I'm not understanding is the FR graph not being flat, why is that?


 

 Unlike loudspeakers, a headphone with subjectively flat response does NOT have objectively flat response. Because the headphone is attached to your head it has to compensate for sounds traveling through your head and bypassing your ears in ways that actual sounds in the real world don't. That's called the HRTF curve. Essentially, the headphone has to have a response that is the opposite of the HRTF curve in order to sound subjectively "flat" or neutral to the listener.
  
 That means a headphone with subjectively "perfect", neutral flat response (the LCD-2 is close to this) does NOT have a flat sensitivity vs. frequency curve. Its sensitivity is different at different frequencies, and since the LCD-2 impedance is actually flat, its efficiency is NOT flat. Thus it requires more power at some frequencies than others.
  
 Some loudspeakers also need to have non-flat response in order to have flat response at the listener position. For example, Magnepan 3.6 speakers have a response bump at 50 Hz. You place them the right distance from the back wall so the back wave is 180* out of phase with the front wave which cancels the bump. If you measure them near-field, you see a big bump at 50 Hz, but if you measure them far-field at the listener position you get flat response (if they're correctly positioned). Similar concept as headphones with HRTF corrected response, just a different application.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

d marc0 said:


> I can only afford a Schiit MAGNI right now.
> I hope it's good enough for the LCD v2.2.
> Has anyone tried this amp with LCD?


 
  
 I think you will enjoy it as long as your DAC is better than the Modi DAC (which is slightly lacking detail and energy vs an AE D1 or uDAC-2 SE).


----------



## d marc0

headphoneaddict said:


> I think you will enjoy it as long as your DAC is better than the Modi DAC (which is slightly lacking detail and energy vs an AE D1 or uDAC-2 SE).




Thank you! I'll check them out...


----------



## Poladise

vkalia said:


> ^^^    Lyr with Amperex tubes.    I had the original tubes and swapped them out a couple of days ago and oh. my. lord.....


 
  
 What was the difference you noticed?
  


> poladise said:
> 
> 
> > *Little Dot VI+* - If these had a UK supplier I'd own one already (might take a gamble)
> ...


 
  
 Yeh, I bet it is. I've just become a little paranoid about shipping tube amps overseas. I'm very close to ordering one though.


----------



## PTom

ptom said:


> So the updated list of the most widely recommended amps for the LCD 2 within different price ranges is:
> 
> Below $2000:
> 
> ...


 
 Based on the above nominations, I've started a poll to find Head Fi's favourite amp to drive the LCD 2.
  
 To vote in the $200-$1000 category click on the following link:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/716576/head-fis-favourite-amp-for-the-audeze-lcd-2-200-1000-poll
  
 For the $1000-$2000 category click on the following:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/716577/head-fis-favourite-amp-for-the-audeze-lcd-2-1000-2000-poll


----------



## vkalia

poladise said:


> What was the difference you noticed?


 
  
 I didnt do an A/B comparison with specific songs, so can only provide general impressions, based on long-term listening at different levels before and after.   
  
 With the Amperex, the Lyr started sounding more like a single-ended-triode tube amp - voices had a fullness that sounded closer to live than recorded, instruments gained a presence that they did not have before.  I am guessing the lower mids gained some.    In short, the music has gained more "weight", realism and greater dynamic impact/slam.    
  
 I am actually quite surprised - i was expecting a much smaller difference (I am the guy that typically takes all the talk about huge differences between amps, DACs, cables, etc with several grains of salt).


----------



## G600

levinhatz said:


> Would you like to elaborate on what you did? Was it difficult? Expensive? And what types of improvements did you get?
> 
> Thanks.


 
 Hello, and apologies for late reply.
  
 Yes it was quite painful. Not that difficult but it requires patience and care. The soldering job is not a problem, but unscrewing and tearing the amp's PCB down is not easy.
  
 After that you can replace the 8*330 Ohm 5W resistor, which are very poor. I chose Kiwame, they are well built, heavy and sound excellent.
 I've also upgraded the 4 Wima MKP coupling caps for Audyn true copper caps (decent prices, good reports on the net). You can also choose Russian NOS paper in oil caps. Just increase the capacitance for a slightly better bass response, but beware of the space inside the chassis (some caps are huge).
 You can find some tweaks and reviews on the MK VI's thread, and I'll post some photos some day.
  
 For the improvements, unfortunately I've done the 2 tweaks at the same time, so dunno who's who.
 The VI's big soundstage became bigger, more air in the stereo image, more defined and better bass. The neutrality of the circuit is still there, but everything is more natural, more defined and refined. The highs are less dry, and more detail retention. And finally there was an increase in dynamic.
 It's indeed a big big improvement in sound quality, affordable, and with no drawbacks for me (the tweaks stays at your own risk). One MUST give it a try before selling the amp, or ask Sword Yang at Little Dot to build a custom MK VI+ (you just send him the parts).
 And the differences in tubes are more obvious.


----------



## sotto123

V200 vs Soloist SL comparison, anyone?
  
 I found a good thread comparing the two with the LCD2, but the poster was talking about the Soloist.
  
 What attracts me to the Soloist SL is that I've heard it is a slightly warm SS like the V200, the soundstage is also meant to be bigger. Fun instead of detail retrieval etc. is more important to me, though.


----------



## levinhatz

g600 said:


> Hello, and apologies for late reply.
> 
> Yes it was quite painful. Not that difficult but it requires patience and care. The soldering job is not a problem, but unscrewing and tearing the amp's PCB down is not easy.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thank you for the reply! This is very helpful.


----------



## G600

My pleasure levinhatz !


----------



## Poladise

sotto123 said:


> V200 vs Soloist SL comparison, anyone?
> 
> I found a good thread comparing the two with the LCD2, but the poster was talking about the Soloist.
> 
> What attracts me to the Soloist SL is that I've heard it is a slightly warm SS like the V200, the soundstage is also meant to be bigger. Fun instead of detail retrieval etc. is more important to me, though.


 
 The SL is supposed to have the same signature as the big Soloist. I made some notes when I compared the Soloist & V200 with LCD2r2 about a year ago. I guess you could call the Soloist slightly warm, but compared to the V200, Soloist was quite colourless (the mental image of instruments to me was like watching black&white TV).
  
 Soloist had more defined bass instrument textures and higher resolution treble, but V200 was a way more 'musical' and fun listen.


----------



## sotto123

V200 it is then. I just put my order in.


----------



## Poladise

sotto they're bringing a new the version V220 out in june, might wanna wait a bit longer.


----------



## latimerfripp

I'm looking to get a new amp for my LCD2Rev2 and HD800. I can get the Violectric V200 and the Schiit Lyr for the same price. Using a Bifrost Uber with USB as DAC.
  
 anyone can compare between the two amps? thanks


----------



## Zashoomin

latimerfripp said:


> I'm looking to get a new amp for my LCD2Rev2 and HD800. I can get the Violectric V200 and the Schiit Lyr for the same price. Using a Bifrost Uber with USB as DAC.
> 
> anyone can compare between the two amps? thanks


 
 If you can get the lyr and v200 for the same price I think the V200 is the no brainer there.  But that might just be me.  They are supposed to be at competely different price points.


----------



## Argo Duck

^ As well I think either suits the slightly dry but quick bifrost. Based on my experiences with Lyr and *V100*, Violectric gives a hint of warmth and of course the Lyr can be whatever you want.

Perhaps the main difference is the Lyr's many tube-rolling options. Can be a mixed blessing though...


----------



## Jones Bob

kahldog said:


> After many years and much money, of searching for "Audio Nirvana" via the full range speaker with separate tube components I inadvertently stumbled on the Audeze LCD 2's. My only other exposure to this type of listening experience was a pair of Quad ESL 67's. It is very difficult to overcome the room influences in a full home stereo system.
> I first tried the LCD 2's with  Music Fidelity's MPHA 1 headphone amp and at that time, thought I was blown away. I started reading about the power requirements for these ortho's and how they could be connected to the speaker outputs of a power amp, using a divider network. I purchased a small tube amp from Sophia Electric called the "BABY". It is 10 watts/ch in triode mode. I hooked up my LCD 2's using an 8ohm resistor in parallel. All I can say is WHOW!!!!
> This amp retails for around $800.00 USD but can be picked up used for between 4-5 hundred. The only mods I had done were to replace the coupling caps with a Russian paper in oil. Much smoother.
> This amp gets quite good reviews on various sites but no mention of it being used in this type of application. In all honesty I have never enjoyed my music so much even in comparison to my $50,000.00 plus full range speaker system.
> If you have the chance give it a try and post your thoughts.




That inexpensive little amp is unbelievably good with Audeze. Used it with my LCD-2.2, LCD-3C, LCD-X, and now LCD-3F. Especially when you do a few simple mods (be careful, the PCB is very fragile). No noise, superb dynamics, wonderful tone, great PRAT -when called for. Even has a 3.5mm headphone jack on the front face. And the wood trim is Zebrano to match my LCD-3. 

In the Sophia Baby, replace the 2 stock rectifiers in the voltage doubler PS with high voltage Schottky's, RCA inputs with Eichmann, trash the stock Chinese tubes and get good 1960-70s vintage Soviet Military 6N1P-EV and 6P1P-EV tubes on Ebay. Did that to my $150 Meng Music Angel (same amp as the Sophia) along with copper Obbligato coupling caps and it slayed my Mjolnir. Better highs, better bass, more emotion in the music. BTW, the Sophia is PP 6P6P pentode wired.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Music-Angel-Meng-MINIP1-6P1-x-4-Push-Pull-Valve-Tube-Integrated-Amplifier-BK-/310818347087?pt=US_Home_Audio_Amplifiers_Preamps&hash=item485e37984f

I've since built my own PP 6V6 triode strapped amp with ElectraPrint Partial Silver OPTs that is quite a bit better. But that little Meng Music Angel can really hold its own. Its a sweet little amp. Even used it as my everyday amp to drive my Altec Model 19s.


----------



## PTom

So after 20 votes in the LCD 2 amp poll ($200-$1000 category), we're starting to see certain amps dominate:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/716576/head-fis-favourite-amp-for-the-audeze-lcd-2-200-1000-poll
  
 I'm quite surprised by how well Schiit Lyr is doing! In the $1000-$2000 category after 11 votes we're not yet seeing any one amp dominate to such a large extent:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/716577/head-fis-favourite-amp-for-the-audeze-lcd-2-1000-2000-poll
  
 If you haven't voted yet and are interested, please vote in these polls!


----------



## montanari

who tried to make a comparison with all these amps ???
pretty pointless
...


----------



## PTom

It's not a comparison but to see which are the most popular amps. i.e. you can vote for as many amps as you like that you feel works well with LCD 2.


----------



## montanari

ochei!
 it could be a funny game
 but i mean: i have a conductor, for me it drive well the audezes
 better than the 2/3 others i had before
 but i m quiet sure there is something that can do a better job..
 (cavalli liquid for example, that is not in the list, or redwine, or taurus.. etc etc.. and for sure someones that i even don t know)


----------



## Argo Duck

^ the polls are capped at $1000 and $2000 respectively


----------



## PTom

If it's not on the list you can vote by writing a comment and I'll keep a tally. Taurus is in the $1000-$2000 category. The Cavalli Liquid is in a higher price range than either polls. I can start a  $2000+ poll but I'm not sure how many people would have experienced such amps or be willing to spend that kind of cash...


----------



## Argo Duck

Oh there are enough people who have bought those amps


----------



## kahldog

jones bob said:


> That inexpensive little amp is unbelievably good with Audeze. Used it with my LCD-2.2, LCD-3C, LCD-X, and now LCD-3F. Especially when you do a few simple mods (be careful, the PCB is very fragile). No noise, superb dynamics, wonderful tone, great PRAT -when called for. Even has a 3.5mm headphone jack on the front face. And the wood trim is Zebrano to match my LCD-3.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Glad to see that someone else has discovered this GEM. It is really something to hear. I agree that the tone is just so correct and that everything sounds so real or just like a live unaltered sound, if you will. I am so surprised how delicately it handles the sound and then out of nowhere it kicks when it has to with the dynamics of the music. It was actually startling at first because I have never heard this in my equipment before. I recently purchased a Cayin A88-T integrated and while it sounds nice the Sophia is more enjoyable to listen to. For me it is a perfect match with my Audeze LCD 2's and I would be very very reluctant to change unless I heard something better. I actually have no desire to change as I am totally satisfied and have been disappointed before with my upgrade sickness.


----------



## Jones Bob

kahldog said:


> Glad to see that someone else has discovered this GEM. It is really something to hear. I agree that the tone is just so correct and that everything sounds so real or just like a live unaltered sound, if you will. I am so surprised how delicately it handles the sound and then out of nowhere it kicks when it has to with the dynamics of the music. It was actually startling at first because I have never heard this in my equipment before. I recently purchased a Cayin A88-T integrated and while it sounds nice the Sophia is more enjoyable to listen to. For me it is a perfect match with my Audeze LCD 2's and I would be very very reluctant to change unless I heard something better. I actually have no desire to change as I am totally satisfied and have been disappointed before with my upgrade sickness.




The magic is with this model only. The similar EL-84 and larger EL-34 amps are MEH at best. The secret is in the tubes and extremely good iron. The output tube is similar to the US 6AQ5 with a different pinout. Triode strapped they are as nearly as linear as a DHT 45, and sound it too. The OPTs are special too. Being the amp is from China, I take it as a happy accident that works far above its other siblings.


----------



## Poladise

Can't resist trying the Music Angel for that cost. Don't think I'll make it past today without ordering one. Just what I was after.
  
 Jones Bob, do you think it would still sound good with just the tube change to begin with? I plan to do the other changes you mention, but never tried that before, so want to take my time with it.


----------



## kahldog

poladise said:


> Can't resist trying the Music Angel for that cost. Don't think I'll make it past today without ordering one. Just what I was after.
> 
> Jones Bob, do you think it would still sound good with just the tube change to begin with? I plan to do the other changes you mention, but never tried that before, so want to take my time with it.


 

 The biggest change in sound quality for me was in changing the coupling caps. I installed 4 Russian paper in oil 0.1uf 630V in place of the stock MKV's. The midrange became so open and smooth and all the high frequency grain that is often a complaint with this amp was gone. With my Sophia Baby I actually preferred the tubes they supplied preferable to the Russian replacements not that they are bad by any means. The coupling caps can be had for under $20.00 on Ebay for all 4. They are a must change. There is a Sophia Baby on Ebay for auction right now going fairly cheap.


----------



## kahldog

kahldog said:


> The biggest change in sound quality for me was in changing the coupling caps. I installed 4 Russian paper in oil 0.1uf 630V in place of the stock MKV's. The midrange became so open and smooth and all the high frequency grain that is often a complaint with this amp was gone. With my Sophia Baby I actually preferred the tubes they supplied preferable to the Russian replacements not that they are bad by any means. The coupling caps can be had for under $20.00 on Ebay for all 4. They are a must change. There is a Sophia Baby on Ebay for auction right now going fairly cheap.


 

 Just an adder note. Remember to order yourself either 2 10ohm 5watt wirewound resistors to be used in parallel with the speaker outputs or 2 - 6ohm 5watt in series with 2 - 2ohm 3watt in parallel which gives the amp the load it needs to see while lowering the noise floor as well as attenuating the output so use have more useable volume control. Just Google Robinette box and you will find all the info required plus tons of info.


----------



## Poladise

Thanks kahldog. Guess I'll be attempting the caps swap soon then. I want to try the Music Angel first. If that's good, I might go for a fully upgraded Sophia Electric Baby later.
  
 What piqued my interest in this design was low noise claims and the impression that no more than the 10 ohm resistors for 8 ohm load would be required. Is there a noticeable noise floor with no attenuation resistors? Not keen on using those, because Robinett's Headphone Resistor Calculator excel showed a drop from 1.6W to 93mw with 6&2 resistors.


----------



## kahldog

poladise said:


> Thanks kahldog. Guess I'll be attempting the caps swap soon then. I want to try the Music Angel first. If that's good, I might go for a fully upgraded Sophia Electric Baby later.
> 
> What piqued my interest in this design was low noise claims and the impression that no more than the 10 ohm resistors for 8 ohm load would be required. Is there a noticeable noise floor with no attenuation resistors? Not keen on using those, because Robinett's Headphone Resistor Calculator excel showed a drop from 1.6W to 93mw with 6&2 resistors.


 

 I did notice some audible noise in idle but it gets hidden during music playback. It is just my obsession that didn't want to hear it. I find the 10 ohm in parallel works fine without as much attenuation as the 6 and 2 combination. I can get to about 12 o'clock on the volume knob before maxing out. Sophia recommended using the 10 ohm in parallel. Maybe they were right. I also noticed the entire sound was much smoother with the 10 ohm. All the brightness in the treble seemed to disappear. When I first listened to SRV's Tin Pan Alley it blew me out of my socks. I had the urge to tell the whole world. Just simply amazing. Let me know how you make out as it is simple to use the 10ohms in parallel. Just connect them between the load and ground right on the speaker terminals. I guess because of my lack of knowledge I was also afraid of damaging the output transformers.


----------



## Jones Bob

Using the headphone jack output of my Meng Music Angel (and no load resistor), I get no noise using my original LCD-3, and maybe some slight imagined noise with my new LCD-3 with fazors. I would attribute my mod of Shottky rectifiers for that. 

The new LCD-3 are around 10dB more SPL at the same setting. I set system gain via the volume knob on the amp at about 9:30, and use digital volume via Audirvana on my Mac mini to adjust volume as required per recording. 

Top to bottom, this amp sounds amazing with LCDs.


----------



## Jones Bob

poladise said:


> Can't resist trying the Music Angel for that cost. Don't think I'll make it past today without ordering one. Just what I was after.
> 
> Jones Bob, do you think it would still sound good with just the tube change to begin with? I plan to do the other changes you mention, but never tried that before, so want to take my time with it.




That would be a good start. I have used most vintage of Soviet tubes, and usually the older datecode the better. Just bought eight 1960s vintage NOS 6P1P output tubes off Ebay for $17.95 delivered. For inputs, I would recommend early Novosibirsk (NEVZ) 6N1P-VI Pentagram logo if you can find them over the more common Voskhod 6N1P-EV Rocket logo. 

http://www.ominous-valve.com/russtube.html 

All the Soviet tubes sound good (much better than Chinese) but older the better. I have found a bit better ultimate SQ from the early Novosibirsk 6N1P. YMMV.


----------



## Poladise

Ah, I didnt even consider using the headphone socket. Great to know it still sounds good from that socket if the speaker taps are too noisy.


----------



## kahldog

jones bob said:


> That would be a good start. I have used most vintage of Soviet tubes, and usually the older datecode the better. Just bought eight 1960s vintage NOS 6P1P output tubes off Ebay for $17.95 delivered. For inputs, I would recommend early Novosibirsk (NEVZ) 6N1P-VI Pentagram logo if you can find them over the more common Voskhod 6N1P-EV Rocket logo.
> 
> http://www.ominous-valve.com/russtube.html
> 
> All the Soviet tubes sound good (much better than Chinese) but older the better. I have found a bit better ultimate SQ from the early Novosibirsk 6N1P. YMMV.


 

 I just got a quote from Sophia and their replacement tube set costs about $150.00. The Russian equivalents are much cheaper and there is no shortage. I just received a pair of 6N1P's with the DR suffix. These sound amazing but are rare and a tad more expensive. Supposedly 10,000hr life expectancy.
 I wonder if those 7pin to 9 pin adapters would allow me to run the 6AQ5 without any mods to the internal wiring? Anybody know anything on this.
 Unfortunately the Sophia does not come with a headphone output on my unit but I suppose they would have to install some type of resistor network for this output.
 I agree though that these amps sound phenomenal from top to bottom with my LCD 2 rev.1's. I have looked for a long time to find music sounding like this. Even my Wadia, ARC, PMC stuff didn't sound this enjoyable.


----------



## Jones Bob

I don't recall the DR suffix, but bet it is good stuff!

Have not tried 7 to 9 pin adapters. That would give you a bigger selection of tubes to try. 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-6AQ5-to-6P1-7pin-to-9pin-vacuum-tube-adapter-socket-converter-02-/290973107611?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item43bf59459b


----------



## PTom

Here's an update on the results so far on the "Head Fi's Favourite Amp for the LCD 2" poll. These threads are for finding out the most popular amps within the Head Fi community for the LCD 2. Within the $200-$1000 price range we've had 42 votes so far and some clear leaders have emerged:
  
 - Schiit Lyr (18 votes)
 - Schiit Mjolnir (14 votes)
 - Violectric V200 (7 votes)
  
 after these 3 amps the remaining have received 4 or less votes. For the full results or to vote here's the link for the thread:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/716576/head-fis-favourite-amp-for-the-audeze-lcd-2-200-1000-poll
  
 Within the $1000-$2000 category there have been 23 votes so far. No clear leaders have emerged:
  
 - Decware Taboo MKIII (7 votes)
 - Bryston BHA-1 and Burson Conductor (Both with 5 votes each)
 - Beta 22 (4 votes)
  
 The rest have 3 votes or below. For the full results or to vote here's the link for this thread:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/716577/head-fis-favourite-amp-for-the-audeze-lcd-2-1000-2000-poll


----------



## Zashoomin

Interesting that the lyr has more votes than the mjolnir.  Honestly I think that you need to spend hundreds on tubes before it even touches the mjolnir but maybe that is just me.  Price wise the Lyr is definately better value, especially since you don't have to go balanced.


----------



## Argo Duck

^ With a 42 vote sample the Mjolnir and Lyr are statistically indistinguishable. Lyr and Mjolnir are only separated by 10% whereas the margin of error approaches twice that (very roughly speaking - this model is complicated by each 'voter' being able to vote for more than one choice).

So, the _sample_ has the Lyr with more votes, but among the _population_ of headfiers who have heard both the truth could be the other way. Or not!

Taking the result as it stands though, I speculate the Lyr having more votes reflects the big splash it made at the time and that a lot of people own one. It was revolutionary and caught the imagination (deservedly). As a hybrid it appealed to die-hard toob and even curious SS people. Plus, it rode the ortho wave.

Speculating further I wouldn't be surprised if the very successful Mjolnir has nevertheless sold less units, in part because plans for the Ragnarok were already announced by then.

The other poll is even more uncertain. It's meaningless but I'm personally pleased the Taboo III has a good showing. I'm a Taboo mk II owner so didn't vote for the III, but FWIW I've heard the latter is slightly better than the II.


----------



## Barry S

I'd guess that people are generally voting for the amp they own.  I had a Lyr when I bought the LCD-2 and added a Mjolnir later. I spent many hours comparing the Lyr and Mjolnir out of the Gungnir with my LCD-2. The Mjolnir blows away the Lyr in terms of quality. The LCD-2 sounds good out of the Lyr, and you can tweak it with tubes, but it's never going to match the transparency and tightness of the Mjolnir. You could easily spend more than the $300 difference between the two on tubes for the Lyr, but still be a mile away on quality.  The two amps have different signatures and I can imagine a few people might like the warmth of the Lyr, but LCD-2 is already a warm headphone and you have to trade detail, transparency, and soundstage to get the extra warmth from the Lyr. The Mjolnir has better synergy with the LCD-2 than the $2800 GS-X mk2.


----------



## MRC001

This thread is potentially useful but something about it bugs me. These are separate questions yet the answers are mixed.
  
 (1) Is it about which amps can properly drive the LCD-2 headphones? Properly means the sound levels the listener will actually use, are within the amp's normal continuous power, voltage, current, impedance, distortion ratings. In short, was the amp designed to drive a load like the LCD-2?
  
 (2) Is it which amps have a sonic signature that the listener believes compliment the LCD-2 headphones? "sonic signature" simply means distortion. All amps have distortion though distortion comes in many forms. Some is more or less audible, or more or less euphonic, depending on the listener.


----------



## Argo Duck

^ Do you mean this thread or PTom's polls? Good questions either way!

I think _this_ thread is no different than any other...people come with different standards and expectations, and searching for different things. The threads end up catering to all tastes, and don't often focus particularly well on any one question. IMHE of course...


----------



## sludgeogre

Been listening to my brand new LCD-2 on my Schiit Asgard 2 and I can't turn this thing up past noon or 1 o'clock without melting my brain, and I'm a death metalhead with sub-par hearing. I can't believe this thing needs more power, but my K550's definitely sound much better with excess power behind them. I can't believe how much I love the LCD-2 now, and I can't wait to hear them out of an amp with a higher power rating. Will a 2-4 W amp really make them sound that much better than the near 1 W with Asgard 2?


----------



## PinkLed

sludgeogre said:


> Been listening to my brand new LCD-2 on my Schiit Asgard 2 and I can't turn this thing up past noon or 1 o'clock without melting my brain, and I'm a death metalhead with sub-par hearing. I can't believe this thing needs more power, but my K550's definitely sound much better with excess power behind them. I can't believe how much I love the LCD-2 now, and I can't wait to hear them out of an amp with a higher power rating. Will a 2-4 W amp really make them sound that much better than the near 1 W with Asgard 2?


 
I believe the Lyr was designed for the LCD2, I may be mistaken. From my experience it drives them excellently though. @ 50 ohms the Lyr outputs 4W compared to the 1W of the Asgard. It may not seem like a lot since Audeze recommends 1-4W for the LCD2 but currently you are driving them at the minimum optimization. 
  
I've heard the LCD2 through Mjolnir as well and It may be an option for you if you do not like the idea of using tubes and have plenty of desk space you need to use up 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 . If you are considering tube rolling the Lyr, you will quickly be spending just as much as the Mjolnir even counting the balanced cables you will have to buy for it. 
  
I would also look at Woo Audio. When I was making this decision a while back most of the comments I received recommended the WA7 over anything Schiit. I probably pulled the plug too early. 
  
Schiit does offer a 15 day satisfaction return policy. You can always just buy one, sample it, compare it, and if you notice no difference, return it. As said many times on this forum, everyone's ears are different. Good luck.


----------



## sludgeogre

I realize I'm at the bottom end, I'm just surprised at how great they sound. The latest version is more efficient so that must help as well. I'm not a huge fan of tube sound and I don't like the prospect of rolling to get good sound. I only kept my Vali for a month. I'm also not going to spend a ton of money on balanced equipment when I'm in a room with no electrical noise in it and cable runs of 6 inches.
  
 I have a McIntosh MC2105 coming next month from my Dad and I can't wait to hear what they sound like with it.
  
 The WA7 only puts out 1 W at 32 Ohms, so at 70 its a lot less, so its waaaay below optimum power. For that kind of price, no thanks.


----------



## Zashoomin

sludgeogre said:


> The WA7 only puts out 1 W at 32 Ohms, so at 70 its a lot less, so its waaaay below optimum power. For that kind of price, no thanks.


 
 So first of all the lcd2's are 50ohms... secondly it won't be that below "optimum" power (the reason it is in quotes is because you don't need an amp with 1W and that is shown by the fact that some amps with less than 1W sound better than some with more than 1W.) . Also the reason that the WA7 is that expensive is because it also has a DAC portion.  Thirdly and lastly, just because the output power of the amp is low doesn't mean that it is bad in anyway. 
  
 With that being said I would not pair the LCD2's with the WA7 either.


----------



## jodgey4

The recent updated LCD-2's with the Fazor tech are now at 70 ohms, though more sensitive I believe. Doesn't really change anything, just thought I'd share the info so nobody gets confused. The ALO Pan Am is very popular, and doesn't provide near 1 W either.


----------



## PinkLed

sludgeogre said:


> I realize I'm at the bottom end, I'm just surprised at how great they sound. The latest version is more efficient so that must help as well. I'm not a huge fan of tube sound and* I don't like the prospect of rolling to get good sound*. I only kept my Vali for a month. I'm also not going to spend a ton of money on balanced equipment when I'm in a room with no electrical noise in it and cable runs of 6 inches.
> 
> I have a McIntosh MC2105 coming next month from my Dad and I can't wait to hear what they sound like with it.
> 
> The WA7 only puts out 1 W at 32 Ohms, so at 70 its a lot less, so its waaaay below optimum power. For that kind of price, no thanks.


 
 The Lyr sounds phenomenal at its price range with the standard GE 6dj8's they sell from the schitt website even without tube rolling. So many people recommend it because of its price/performance value. 
  
 Quote:


zashoomin said:


> So first of all the lcd2's are 50ohms... secondly it won't be that below "optimum" power (the reason it is in quotes is because you don't need an amp with 1W and that is shown by the fact that some amps with less than 1W sound better than some with more than 1W.) . Also the reason that the WA7 is that expensive is because it also has a DAC portion.  Thirdly and lastly, just because the output power of the amp is low doesn't mean that it is bad in anyway.
> 
> With that being said I would not pair the LCD2's with the WA7 either.


 
 Does the source output impedance play a factor here? The Lyr has an output impedance of less then 1 ohm (http://www.head-fi.org/t/530556/new-schiit-lyr-hybrid-6w-headphone-amp-yes-six-watts-rms/600#post_7354290) .2 according to elerno asking Jason in this thread, while the WA7 is much higher, around 36 for the low 1/4" jack and varies depending on selection modes, ref http://kenrockwell.com/audio/woo/wa7.htm#z.
  
 Perhaps the higher voltage of the wa7 plays a factor?
  
 Voltage is the work done per unit charge. Power is the rate of work done over unit time. 
  
 Power(watts) = V(voltage) * I(amps)
  
P = V^2/Impedance,
  
Schiit Lyr:
  
 P = 6W (@32 ohms) = V^2/(.2ohms), V = 1.095 volts
  
 WA7:
  
 P = 1W (@32 ohms) = V^2/(36ohms), V = 6 volts
  
Its very possible I am wrong can someone please clarify and elaborate.


----------



## BeyerMonster

zashoomin said:


> Interesting that the lyr has more votes than the mjolnir.


 
 I'd be willing to bet that the difference is purely based on cost.
  
 One problem with most of these kinds of polls is that there's no good way to represent models that you listened to, but didn't vote for. Perhaps many of the people that voted for the Lyr didn't even demo something in the $500 and up range.


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## PinkLed

--My above post was probably 100% wrong. After reading these two articles I have a much better understanding.
  
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan03/articles/impedanceworkshop.asp
  
 "Any device which generates a voltage has what is called an output impedance — the impedance value of its own internal circuitry as 'seen' from the outside (ie. as measured across its outputs). Similarly, any device which expects to receive a voltage input has an input impedance — the impedance 'seen' by any equipment connected to its inputs (ie. the impedance measured across the inputs). The output voltage from the source is developed across the input impedance of the destination (often called the load impedance, or simply the load), and therefore the signal voltage is passed from source to destination. However, the input and output impedance will also affect the current that flows around the circuit too."
  
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Output_impedance (scroll down to audio amplifiers)
  
 --Also by stv014 in regards to dynamic headphones, perhaps planar has a similar effect?
  


> An ideal amplifier applies a voltage gain to the input signal, while having infinite input impedance, zero output impedance, and no distortion (be it linear or non-linear) or noise. In practice, the headphone output stage of a low quality "unamplified" source may fail to get close enough to meeting these requirements by having:
> - insufficient maximum voltage or current output, so you cannot get sufficiently loud sound without clipping distortion
> - *high output impedance that reduces the electrical damping of dynamic headphones* (this usually most noticeably affects the bass response)
> - capacitor coupled outputs that roll off the bass with low impedance headphones
> ...


 
  
 --Also to quote http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/how-planar-magnetic-headphones-work-page-2
  
 "*Easy on the Amplifier* --- Unlike the coiled winding of a dynamic driver, which creates inductive peaks in the impedance characteristics of the headphone, current planar magnetic headphones use a serpentine pattern for their voice coil, which makes their impedance characteristics almost purely resistive. Though they sometimes need quite a bit of voltage to drive them, they are not difficult loads to drive at all."


----------



## PTom

mrc001 said:


> This thread is potentially useful but something about it bugs me. These are separate questions yet the answers are mixed.
> 
> (1) Is it about which amps can properly drive the LCD-2 headphones? Properly means the sound levels the listener will actually use, are within the amp's normal continuous power, voltage, current, impedance, distortion ratings. In short, was the amp designed to drive a load like the LCD-2?
> 
> (2) Is it which amps have a sonic signature that the listener believes compliment the LCD-2 headphones? "sonic signature" simply means distortion. All amps have distortion though distortion comes in many forms. Some is more or less audible, or more or less euphonic, depending on the listener.


 
 What I had in mind was (2) i.e. vote for amps you feel has a good synergy with the LCD 2. Then the results should show which are the most popular amps among those that go well with the LCD 2. I guess popularity would depend on a mixture of different factors i.e. cost and quality. So like someone pointed out earlier the cost aspect might be what makes the Lyr more "popular" than other amps on the list.


----------



## PTom

zashoomin said:


> Interesting that the lyr has more votes than the mjolnir.  Honestly I think that you need to spend hundreds on tubes before it even touches the mjolnir but maybe that is just me.  Price wise the Lyr is definately better value, especially since you don't have to go balanced.


 
 Since you can vote for as many amps as you like, it doesn't necessarily mean the Lyr is better than the Mjolnir. There are a few possibilities for the results:
  
 1) More people drive or have heard their LCD 2 with the Lyr than Mjolnir
 2) More people prefer the Lyr with the LCD 2 than the Mjolnir
  
 Due to the lower cost of the Lyr, I'd guess that (1) is probably the most likely reason.
  
 Now comparing the Mjolnir or Lyr to the Violectric V200, the reason the Schiit amps are getting more votes might have similar reasons:
  
 1) More people drive or have heard their LCD 2 with Schiit amps than the V200
 2) More people prefer the Schiit amps with the LCD 2 than the V200
  
 Since Head Fi has, I'm guessing, mostly North American members, again I'm leaning towards (1) being the main reason.
  
 In conclusion, I'd say that all three amps should be great with the LCD 2 and the choice should consider budget/your location.


----------



## MRC001

Originally Posted by *PinkLed* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 





> --My above post was probably 100% wrong. After reading these two articles I have a much better understanding.


 
   
Nah, you're on the right track. If you run the numbers you'll see why Audeze's recommendation of 1 W is about 10x higher than you really need. This is explained in detail in prior posts so I won't repeat it here. The LCD-2 is efficient and easy to drive. The most important thing in an amp for the LCD-2 is quality, not output power.

  
 Incidentally, I needed a second headphone amp for my LCD-2 and HD-580s for a second system. So I have a *Meier Corda Jazz* on the way ... will report back how it compares against the *Headroom Maxed Out Home* that I'm using now (which I like a lot and am keeping).


----------



## sludgeogre

zashoomin said:


> So first of all the lcd2's are 50ohms.


 
 I have the newest version, and from the spec sheet on the website it says:

Impedance: 70 ohms, purely resistive
 So, yeah. I understand that the sound quality has nothing to do with the power it puts out, but I'm just curious as to how that is affecting my LCD-2. I'm totally in love with the sound as it is right now, so I'm not really concerned, just curious.


----------



## PinkLed

mrc001 said:


> Nah, you're on the right track. If you run the numbers you'll see why Audeze's recommendation of 1 W is about 10x higher than you really need. *This is explained in detail in prior posts so I won't repeat it here*. The LCD-2 is efficient and easy to drive. The most important thing in an amp for the LCD-2 is quality, not output power.
> 
> Incidentally, I needed a second headphone amp for my LCD-2 and HD-580s for a second system. So I have a *Meier Corda Jazz* on the way ... will report back how it compares against the *Headroom Maxed Out Home* that I'm using now (which I like a lot and am keeping).


 
 MRC001 can you site the pages that this is explained? I am very curious to learn more. Thanks!


----------



## MRC001

If the impedance increased from 50 to 70 ohms, all else equal (assuming voltage sensitivity didn't change), the LCD-2 is now even more efficient than it was before, drawing less current and power at the same voltage and sound level. The old sensitivity was 0.225 Vrms for 90 dB SPL. Is the new sensitivity the same?


----------



## sludgeogre

They only list efficiency on the spec sheet, not sensitivity, so I'm not sure. Audeze has said that the newest revision is much more efficient. Somehow the Fazor is supposed to help that, but I think they just dialed back the requirements a bit because the Fazor added so much. It certainly is a lot easier to drive than many people claim.
  
 Thanks for the clarifications, everyone. I've been reading this thread a lot more, back to the previous posts that were referenced, and it has cleared up a lot of confusion for me. Thanks.


----------



## jodgey4

The latest revision is stated to be 70 ohms and 94 dB/ 1 mW. Under the 'old' Rev. 2 at 50 ohms and 90 dB/ 1 mW, it took about one watt to reach 120 dB, which is a number usually chosen as being the highest amount of dB overhead you might need. Now, to reach 120 dB with the Fazor tech, it's just about half of that. It takes twice the wattage to get 3 more dB, so 94 dB/mW - 90 dB/mW (new-old) = 4 dB ~= a little less than half the power needed. And yet, Audeze keeps their 1-4 W recommendation, even though a similar ratio for the 2.2f should be 0.5 - 2 Watts.
 Tyll, I want your article to clear everything up! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
  
 EDIT:: I misspoke on the voltage at 120 dB, wasn't thinking clearly.


----------



## MRC001

jodgey4 said:


> The latest revision is stated to be 70 ohms and 94 dB/ 1 mW. Under the 'old' Rev. 2 at 50 ohms and 90 dB/ 1 mW,


 
 If that's true, and my sensitivity spec of 0.225 Vrms for 90 dB for the old LCD-2 is correct, then the new LCD-2 is both more sensitive and more efficient.
 Obviously, 4 dB more efficient - the same power plays 4 dB louder.
 How about sensitivity:
 1 mW @ 94 dB into 70 ohms is about 3.8 mA of current and 0.266 Vrms.
 94 to 90 dB is 4 dB less voltage which is 63.1%: .266 * .631 = 0.168 Vrms.
 So the new LCD-2 sensitivity is 0.168 V @ 90 dB.
 The old LCD-2 sensitivity was 0.225 V @ 90 dB.
 The difference is 20*log(.225/.168) = 2.54 dB more sensitive.
  
 So at the same volume knob setting:
 The new LCD-2 is about 2.5 dB louder and draws (4 - 2.5) = 1.5 dB less power.
 So now Audeze's recommendation of 1 W power is even more ridiculous than it was before. To their credit, it's just a very conservative estimate and they publish their methodology so anyone can adjust the numbers to fit their own situation.


----------



## Argo Duck

MRC explained it not many pages back in this very thread IIRC. It's well worth reading.



pinkled said:


> MRC001 can you site the pages that this is explained? I am very curious to learn more. Thanks!


----------



## Argo Duck

Look forward to this comparison. Jan Meier does good stuff. I have his flagship amp the Classic and one of his DACs, both somewhat under-rated on headfi IMHO.

The Classic is a great match with the LCD3F - better (from memory) than with my LCD2.1



mrc001 said:


> I have a *Meier Corda Jazz* on the way ... will report back how it compares against the *Headroom Maxed Out Home* that I'm using now (which I like a lot and am keeping).


----------



## MRC001

sludgeogre said:


> I have the newest version, and from the spec sheet on the website it says:
> 
> Impedance: 70 ohms, purely resistive
> So, yeah. I understand that the sound quality has nothing to do with the power it puts out, but I'm just curious as to how that is affecting my LCD-2. I'm totally in love with the sound as it is right now, so I'm not really concerned, just curious.


 

 This could explain something. I bought my LCD-2 about a month or so ago. Its voltage sensitivity is almost the same as the HD-600 that I compared it with. But I noticed it played significantly louder at the same volume setting despite the spec saying otherwise. Perhaps I got one of these new ones that has higher sensitivity and efficiency. I should put a multimeter on it and measure impedance - see if it's closer to 50 or to 70 ohms.
  
 Yep, looks I got the new ones - they measure 68 ohms on my multimeter. That's at DC, but ortho impedance is not frequency dependent. Funny because when I first reviewed them a month ago I expected their sensitivity to be the same as the HD-600, because that was the previous spec that Audeze had on their site at the time. I subjectively estimated them to be 2-3 dB louder despite the spec - looks like I was right.


----------



## Zashoomin

pinkled said:


> Does the source output impedance play a factor here?


 
 As a rule of thumb you want about 8x lower output impedance of the headphone from the output.  I think.  If I remember correctly. 
  


sludgeogre said:


> I have the newest version, and from the spec sheet on the website it says:
> 
> Impedance: 70 ohms, purely resistive
> So, yeah. I understand that the sound quality has nothing to do with the power it puts out, but I'm just curious as to how that is affecting my LCD-2. I'm totally in love with the sound as it is right now, so I'm not really concerned, just curious.


 
 Ya I just checked and you are correct.  I stand corrected.   Interested that they upped the impedance on the headphones.  On a side note, they also increased the impedance of the LCD3's to 110ohms...or maybe it was that all along and I was just hollucinating. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Hey if you like how it sounds don't let anyone ever tell you otherwise.  Unfortunately for me I always want something more or better 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## Argo Duck

^ You're right about the LCD3; previously ~45 ohms. Or else we're sharing a collective delusion 

IIRC (from contributions by various EEs around these parts) the 8x rule of thumb isn't applicable with purely resistive loads like orthos. FWIW - I'm no EE.


----------



## jodgey4

argo duck said:


> ^ You're right about the LCD3; previously ~45 ohms. Or else we're sharing a collective delusion
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Supposedly true, but when members try their orthos on OTL amps like the BHC or otherwise, you don't get good results, even before the sound starts to clip.


----------



## Argo Duck

^ Agreed. My orthos definitely sound much better on my transformered than my OTL amp. Is Zout all there is to it though? IDK - just asking...


----------



## Zashoomin

The reason that the OTL amps don't work well with orthos is because they don't have enough current to drive the drivers.  Tubes deliver a high amount of voltage but not much current.  That is why you need an output transformer to increase the current and lower the voltage.  But with higher impedance headphones, you don't need that much current so the high voltage is plenty to power them.   That is how I understand it anyway.  I don't think it has anything to do with the output impedance...then again it might as well.


----------



## PTom

Does Audeze recommend any particular amp for the LCD 2? Or is there a particular amp that they normally use to demo the LCD 2?


----------



## commtrd

I used my M/





poladise said:


> Been using an O2 amp for a while. Thinking about going for a Mjolnir next. Only thing is the O2 can be harsh/hard/forward in the mid range with my LCD-2r2s on many tracks and I'm thinking the Mjolnir might be the same. Can anybody give a comparison of the two?



I used my M/G stack with LCD2s and the sound was superlative. I kind of think the whole "forward" thing is blown out of proportion somewhat especially when used with LCD2s. Using with my 3s and it is excellent. Now I am wondering how synergistic the stack will be with the new fazors/drivers of the Audezes.


----------



## MRC001

ptom said:


> Does Audeze recommend any particular amp for the LCD 2?


 
 No, and I can think of several good reasons why they wouldn't. Audeze does it right: publish the specs of their headphones so people using them can decide what amps are suitable. This is a lot of different amps because the LCD-2 are so efficient and easy to drive. There's no way Audeze could keep up with them all, and recommending one (or a list) implies a negative connotation on any amps not mentioned. That could mislead LCD-2 owners and create bad karma with amp makers.


----------



## GrindingThud

Do we know what amp they voiced it with?


----------



## MRC001

argo duck said:


> Jan Meier does good stuff. ...  somewhat under-rated on headfi IMHO.


 
 Generally speaking, audio gear that looks like a utilitarian black box without fancy faceplates and knobs and without a big price tag tends to be under-rated. The fact is, ampifying audio signals is not rocket science, it's a well known field with proven designs, high quality internal parts aren't too expensive, so there's no reason for a reference quality sonically transparent headphone amp to cost a fortune *when produced in sufficient volume*.


----------



## MRC001

grindingthud said:


> Do we know what amp they voiced it with?


 
 I don't know - but will venture a guess. The sonic differences between good solid state amps are so small they pale in comparison to the huge differences in headphones. They could voice it with pretty much any good solid state amp and be assured of a good neutral reference point.


----------



## HPiper

Is there any consensus on the best tubes to use in a Lyr amp for the LCD2's. I am about to get some LCD2 phones and while I am going to listen to the stock tubes to begin with, I'd like to know where to go if I don't like what I hear that much.


----------



## vkalia

mrc001 said:


> Generally speaking, audio gear that looks like a utilitarian black box without fancy faceplates and knobs and without a big price tag tends to be under-rated. The fact is, ampifying audio signals is not rocket science, it's a well known field with proven designs, high quality internal parts aren't too expensive, so there's no reason for a reference quality sonically transparent headphone amp to cost a fortune *when produced in sufficient volume*.


 
  
 Yeah, but hand-made by virgins, using snake-oil-based solder yields better results, dont you know?
  
 I've always wondered about the people selling $5000 solid stage amps and $500 cables - please explain the design objectives used to make the amp or cable sound better.     Never had anyone say "our amp has a faster/better/XYZ ____, which improves performance".


----------



## Argo Duck

Search for the Lyr tube rolling thread. It's long, but there's consensus FWIW.



hpiper said:


> Is there any consensus on the best tubes to use in a Lyr amp for the LCD2's. I am about to get some LCD2 phones and while I am going to listen to the stock tubes to begin with, I'd like to know where to go if I don't like what I hear that much.


----------



## MRC001

vkalia said:


> ... please explain the design objectives used to make the amp or cable sound better. Never had anyone say "our amp has a faster/better/XYZ ____, which improves performance".


 
 Oh I've heard people say that, like "we use OPA627 op amps" or "toroidal transformer" or "discrete components, no op amps" - all are objectively defensible claims about improving performance.
  
 Yet you've touched the key difference: "sound better" versus "improves performance". One is subjective, the other objective and measurable. To confuse things further, some - but not all - subjective preferences disappear in level matched double blind testing.
  
 All that said, music is about artistic expression and entertainment. If someone *likes* a particular thing, what right does anyone have to say it's a waste of money? Even if it doesn't sound like natural acoustic music or a live mic feed, maybe euphonic distortion is the sound he likes. Even if he can't tell it apart in a double blind test, he may simply enjoy the satisfaction of owning and using it.


----------



## vkalia

mrc001 said:


> Oh I've heard people say that, like "we use OPA627 op amps" or "toroidal transformer" or "discrete components, no op amps" - all are objectively defensible claims about improving performance.


 
  
 Sure - toroidal transfers, discrete components, Class A / zero feedback designs:  all of these do have an impact on the sound and affect sonic quality.    But these can all be made for $1000 or less.     I was thinking more in terms of the significantly more expensive amps - what exactly are they using that makes them more expensive?
  


mrc001 said:


> Yet you've touched the key difference: "sound better" versus "improves performance". One is subjective, the other objective and measurable. To confuse things further, some - but not all - subjective preferences disappear in level matched double blind testing.
> 
> All that said, music is about artistic expression and entertainment. If someone *likes* a particular thing, what right does anyone have to say it's a waste of money? Even if it doesn't sound like natural acoustic music or a live mic feed, maybe euphonic distortion is the sound he likes. Even if he can't tell it apart in a double blind test, he may simply enjoy the satisfaction of owning and using it.


 
  
 I agree with the last paragraph - if someone is happy with their perception, more power to them - who cares if it is a placebo or not?  I am a single-ended triode kinda guy, so it isnt as if i am married to the idea of DBT-uber-alles.
  
 My only issue is that when it comes to reviews, a little more skepticism would be a good idea - hifi has a lot of snake oil that no one bothers to question (dunno if anyone remembers Shakti Stones and the Green Pens).   Forums are a place where people come to get advice, and at some point, if the vast majority are parroting the same statements of questionable veracity, then that doesnt help anyone.  
  
 Or at the very least, qualifying some of these statements would be a good idea.    I mean, there are people talking about noticeable improvements in bass and treble performance with a change in cables - that means we are talking about atleast a few dB of difference.      Who really thinks that is possible?  An audible difference would be ridiculously easy to measure - so where are those measurements?
  
 There are 2 extremes - one where everything has to be DBT-verified, and one where every claim is acceptable and where we all live in a yellow submarine.    I guess I am arguing for a world that is a compromise of the 2 - where subjective claims are subject to a certain basic degree of objective rigor.
  
 In the context of the LCD2s, I find it hard to believe that 4W makes a difference over 2W of power - esp when most of the time, the amp is likely putting out <100mW of power.   There would have to be a serious performance issue with the 2W amp at/near peak output for there to be an audible difference.
  
 I auditioned a Bakoon in Bangkok a few months ago, with a view to upgrading my Audio-GD SA31-SE.   It wasnt a direct A/B comparison, of course, but i heard nothing in the Bakoon which would merit spending the additional money.


----------



## Argo Duck

^ agree with all the above. As a side note, the validity of DBT for testing audiophile claims depends on the assumption the ear/brain system (EBS) is exactly like reliable and properly calibrated test equipment. Test equipment performance isn't affected by how a cable looks or the topology of an amp. Nor presumably does EBS performance vary under blind testing conditions. However, if under sighted conditions EBS _performance_ varies then DBT is not as appropriate a methodology as it seems.

I think the cost of some 'high end' gear is a question of economics. Ours is a niche market, and for some producers who know they can only do low volumes they have to price high to be able to do business full time, or else run it as a hobby while earning their living elsewhere, or not produce at all.


----------



## MRC001

vkalia said:


> Sure - toroidal transfers, discrete components, Class A / zero feedback designs:  all of these do have an impact on the sound and affect sonic quality.    But these can all be made for $1000 or less.     I was thinking more in terms of the significantly more expensive amps - what exactly are they using that makes them more expensive?


 
 I agree. Here are the top 2 reasons high end gear is so expensive:
 1. Low production volume: hand built is obviously expensive, and even machine built stuff gets expensive if you have low volume.
 2. Fancy faceplates and knobs - can comprise more than half the overall parts cost.
  


> Originally Posted by *vkalia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> ... there are people talking about noticeable improvements in bass and treble performance with a change in cables - that means we are talking about atleast a few dB of difference.      Who really thinks that is possible?  An audible difference would be ridiculously easy to measure - so where are those measurements?


 
 Example: a long cable with high capacitance is a low pass filter with phase shift. If the capacitance and device impedances are high enough, the effects will be audible. The cable becomes an expensive tone control. It's not difficult or expensive to build low reactance cables, so in most cases these design flaws are intentional.
  



> Originally Posted by *vkalia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> There are 2 extremes - one where everything has to be DBT-verified, and one where every claim is acceptable and where we all live in a yellow submarine.    I guess I am arguing for a world that is a compromise of the 2 - where subjective claims are subject to a certain basic degree of objective rigor.
> In the context of the LCD2s, I find it hard to believe that 4W makes a difference over 2W of power - esp when most of the time, the amp is likely putting out <100mW of power.   There would have to be a serious performance issue with the 2W amp at/near peak output for there to be an audible difference.


 
 Agree completely. I believe DBTs are a useful and have used them for many years. Participating in any proper level matched DBT is a humbling and educational experience for any audiophile. And the experience teaches one to be a better critical listener which increases enjoyment of music. However, the DBT is only a useful guide, not *THE TRUTH* carved in stone tables from the mountain. In the same vein, objective measurements are a useful indicator how well designed and built something is, but listening (whether critically or for the joy of the music) remains the ultimate test.


----------



## MRC001

> Originally Posted by *vkalia*
> I agree with the last paragraph - if someone is happy with their perception, more power to them - who cares if it is a placebo or not?  I am a single-ended triode kinda guy, so it isnt as if i am married to the idea of DBT-uber-alles.


 
  
 SET amps can be reliably differentiated from solid state in DBT. The tubilicious sound is no placebo effect; it's real and audible.
 EDIT: I'll add that DBT doesn't answer "which is better" or "which is more realistic". It doesn't express judgment or preference.
 It only answers, "Can you tell these apart based purely on listening with no other clues."


----------



## vkalia

argo duck said:


> ^ agree with all the above. As a side note, the validity of DBT for testing audiophile claims depends on the assumption the ear/brain system (EBS) is exactly like reliable and properly calibrated test equipment. Test equipment performance isn't affected by how a cable looks or the topology of an amp. Nor presumably does EBS performance vary under blind testing conditions. However, if under sighted conditions EBS _performance_ varies then DBT is not as appropriate a methodology as it seems.


 
   
 Point taken.
  
 I guess the question becomes - if we all knew that the error margins of our EBS was greater than the sonic differences between a Parasound amp and a Krell amp, or a $500 amp and a $5000 amp, then would our purchasing behaviors be different?    For some people, I imagine not.   For others, I imagine yes.   And thereby, people would still be able to follow their preferences, but would be able to make a slightly more informed decision.   
  
 Let me say that I dont actually think every bit of equipment necessarily needs to DBTed.    I dont know if anyone here remembers Arny Kruger, a big proponent of ABX testing from the 90s,  but that DBT-uber-alles mindset leads to such a sordid mindset that sucks the life out of enjoying music.   "Verify or ****" is a needlessly antagonistic and excessive position to take.
  
 However, I think the industry would do well to test atleast a few of the more debatable concepts - cables, burn in (Ty's article - excellent start!),  high-res audio, etc.   At the very least, this lets people put into context some of the non-verifiable claims being made on Head-Fi (especially when the EBS is so prone to confirmation bias and where often-repeated beliefs become dogma as a result).
  
 Quote:


mrc001 said:


> SET amps can be reliably differentiated from solid state in DBT. The tubilicious sound is no placebo effect; it's real and audible.
> EDIT: I'll add that DBT doesn't answer "which is better" or "which is more realistic". It doesn't express judgment or preference.
> It only answers, "Can you tell these apart based purely on listening with no other clues."


 
  
 Sorry - I dont think i was clear in my earlier post.  My reference to SETs was to make the point was that I am strongly in the "listen to whatever you prefer" camp, and so am definitely inclined to support your point that everyone should listen to whatever makes them happy, even if it is placebo.   
  
 Love the word "tubilicious" btw.


----------



## HeretixAevum

Does anyone here have any insight about the Audio GD NFB15.32 with the LCD2? The LCD2 is a possible future upgrade for me and I'd prefer no to have to invest in another amp. The GD is supposed to have quite a bit of power. I know it's supposed to be a warmer sounding unit but with the new fazer LCD2's having a bit more a neutral sound that shouldn't be too much worry I would think.


----------



## MRC001

Yeah, I knew Arny back in the day on RAHE. He was rather argumentative and did some serious flaming but seemed like a decent guy in private conversations. Strange.
 Incidentally, if anyone wants to try a real level matched DBT, I wrote an Android app called "ABX Audio" that makes it easy to try.
 Now when my Meier Corda Jazz arrives - any day now - I'll crawl into my hidey hole with the LCD-2 and a thousand or so CDs and come out a day later with a review.


----------



## bblegram

I Have a WooAudio WA3 - OTL AMP. Please, I would like to know if anyone had experience with LCD-2 + WA3. 
 Because the WA3 be a OTL, I have problems with low impedance headphones? Can I damage the amp?


----------



## sludgeogre

vkalia said:


> I dont know if anyone here remembers Arny Kruger, a big proponent of ABX testing from the 90s,  but that DBT-uber-alles mindset leads to such a sordid mindset that sucks the life out of enjoying music.   "Verify or ****" is a needlessly antagonistic and excessive position to take.


 
  
 Hoooooly crap. I read about 30 pages of argument between him and Amir Majidimehr* *on AVS. Arny was such a horrible dick to Amir and called him a newbie over and over again. Amir owns Madrona Digital and was a corporate vice president at Microsoft and helped create WMA. The kind of crap Arny would throw at him was amazing, but it gave me a lot of insight to his side of the argument, even if I completely disagreed with him most of the time when he'd throw his opinions in. There's a few guys on there, like Ethan, that just go berserk any time people cross them.
  


mrc001 said:


> Yeah, I knew Arny back in the day on RAHE. He was rather argumentative and did some serious flaming but seemed like a decent guy in private conversations. Strange.


 
 This reminds me of one of my favorite Penny Arcade comics, positing one of the truest statements in internet history: normal person + anonymity + audience = total f**kwad.
  
 http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19


----------



## Argo Duck

^ that's also one if the truest statements in social psychology: anonymity --> diffusion of responsibility (loss of accountability) --> antisocial behavior.


----------



## MRC001

heretixaevum said:


> Does anyone here have any insight about the Audio GD NFB15.32 with the LCD2? The LCD2 is a possible future upgrade for me and I'd prefer no to have to invest in another amp. The GD is supposed to have quite a bit of power. I know it's supposed to be a warmer sounding unit but with the new fazer LCD2's having a bit more a neutral sound that shouldn't be too much worry I would think.


 

 I've been listening to the LCD 2.3 - a name I just made up for the latest ones with fazer or whatever they call it. I haven't used that amp, but I have been using an amp on the dark/warm side of neutral and I find it spectacular. The LCD 2.3 is a very neutral headphone with almost perfectly flat frequency response after HRTF correction so I would not call it a "dark" headphone. It sounds like whatever amp is driving it. Dark or bright is not necessarily a bad pairing, just depends on what you like.
  
 The amp I've been using is a Headroom Maxed Out Home, a solid state amp that is very clear and detailed, but a touch on the warm and dark side of neutral. These things are subjective. I feel that with live acoustic music, you have to listen for details like musicians breathing, fingers sliding on strings and pages turning. So I don't like amps or headphones that accentuate that detail - it sounds false and ultimately fatiguing. Nor do I like audio that veils that detail. It should be there, but you should have to listen for it.
  
 "Dark" sometimes means "veiled" but it doesn't have to be. Just like "bright" often means "harsh" but doesn't have to be. You can't say one is more "real" than the other. Even if you consider live acoustic music as the absolute reference, it's not really absolute, more like a moving target because it sounds completely different when played in different rooms and when listened to from different places in the room. Do you like the sound of the 10th row back, the front row, or sitting in a chair on stage next to the musicians? All equally valid but each sounds quite different.
  
 Currently playing:
 http://www.amazon.com/Tour-De-France-Debussy/dp/B000WM803A
 This is the most jaw dropping incredible flute recording I've ever heard. And as a flute player myself I have a lot of flute recordings in my library.


----------



## GrindingThud

I have both. You won't hurt the amp, it's capacitor coupled. That being said, it does not produce enough power to get very loud. At low levels it sounds ok. It sounds better with 5998 than 6080 with LCD-2. Output from an iPad actually sounds better IMHO.



bblegram said:


> I Have a WooAudio WA3 - OTL AMP. Please, I would like to know if anyone had experience with LCD-2 + WA3.
> 
> Because the WA3 be a OTL, I have problems with low impedance headphones? Can I damage the amp?


----------



## Zashoomin

bblegram said:


> I Have a WooAudio WA3 - OTL AMP. Please, I would like to know if anyone had experience with LCD-2 + WA3.
> Because the WA3 be a OTL, I have problems with low impedance headphones? Can I damage the amp?


 
 You won't damage it but OTL doesn't have enough current to dive the can well.  I would either go with a solid state amp or a tube amp that will deliver a lot of power.  Tubes traditionally deliver a very high amount of voltage, which is fine for high impedance headphones but will not have the current to drive the lower impedance stuff.  I would get a mjolnir over a WA3.


----------



## bblegram

grindingthud said:


> I have both. You won't hurt the amp, it's capacitor coupled. That being said, it does not produce enough power to get very loud. At low levels it sounds ok. It sounds better with 5998 than 6080 with LCD-2. Output from an iPad actually sounds better IMHO.


 
 With your answer, I just test my LCD-2 with WA3. 
 You are right! The sound was much worse compared to LCD + fiio e17. 
 With low volume, it was not too bad, but .... When I plugged my Sennheiser HD 650 into WA3 ... The difference is huge! 
 Thank you!


----------



## bblegram

zashoomin said:


> You won't damage it but OTL doesn't have enough current to dive the can well.  I would either go with a solid state amp or a tube amp that will deliver a lot of power.  Tubes traditionally deliver a very high amount of voltage, which is fine for high impedance headphones but will not have the current to drive the lower impedance stuff.  I would get a mjolnir over a WA3.


 
 I did some calculations, with the specifications of LCD-2, so I get 120 dBSPL .. I need the AMP delivered approximately 790mW (6.0 Vrms and 115mA) considering LCD-2 with 60 ohms / 90dBSPL/1mW 
 You think I'm right in the calculations? 
 I'm buying a Meier CONCERT to pair with LCD-2. I believe the Meier CONCERT easily provide that. 
 What do you think?


----------



## bassboysam

I finally got a balanced headphone to speaker out cable and tested the LCD2s with a Fiio A1 amp.  There is a little bit of hiss but nothing noticeable once the music starts.  I haven't spent a lot of time with it but considering the price, the A1 outperforms a lot of headphone amps that cost a lot more than it.  Compared to my WA6, the A1 sounds a more clear, the WA6 sounds very muddy in the mids compared to the A1.  The bass extends lower with the A1 as well.  I may look into adding some resistors on the speaker outs to get a little more play with the volume knob.  I can't turn it up much past 9 o'clock without it getting too loud.


----------



## MRC001

bblegram said:


> I did some calculations, with the specifications of LCD-2, so I get 120 dBSPL .. I need the AMP delivered approximately 790mW (6.0 Vrms and 115mA) considering LCD-2 with 60 ohms / 90dBSPL/1mW
> You think I'm right in the calculations?
> I'm buying a Meier CONCERT to pair with LCD-2. I believe the Meier CONCERT easily provide that.
> What do you think?


 

 I think your calculations are little off.
 90 to 120 dB is 30 dB louder which is 1,000 times the power. If 90 dB takes 1 mW then 120 dB takes 1 Watt.
 1 Watt into 60 ohms requires 7.8 V and draws 130 mA of current.
  
 I don't think you need a headphone or amp that goes up to 120 dB. Have you ever heard what 120 dB sounds like? It is so loud the safe exposure time is about 5 minutes. Most people wince and express discomfort or pain beyond 100 dB. Anyone who listens that loud would not be an audiophile for long; he'd go deaf.
 You might say, well it's only for transient dynamic peaks that last a few seconds. But most music has well under 30 dB of dynamic range. So if the peaks are at 120 dB then the average music level is above 90 dB. Continuous listening at 90+ dB can cause hearing damage.
 [ Not trying to rain on anyone's lifestyle - listen as loud as you want. Just trying to convey that the 120 dB standard is unrealistically high. ]


----------



## bblegram

mrc001 said:


> I think your calculations are little off.
> 90 to 120 dB is 30 dB louder which is 1,000 times the power. If 90 dB takes 1 mW then 120 dB takes 1 Watt.
> 1 Watt into 60 ohms requires 7.8 V and draws 130 mA of current.
> 
> ...


 
  


mrc001 said:


> I think your calculations are little off.
> 90 to 120 dB is 30 dB louder which is 1,000 times the power. If 90 dB takes 1 mW then 120 dB takes 1 Watt.
> 1 Watt into 60 ohms requires 7.8 V and draws 130 mA of current.
> 
> ...


 
  
 OK! You are right! 
 I do not want to listen to 120db ... what I would like is an amp that can deliver this power, not necessarily in this volume I will listen. 
 I believe that an AMP that can deliver this power, has much better quality at lower volumes (11 o'clock for example ...) with low distortion ... 
 But thank you very much for your explanations .. I'm beginner in this hobby .. and I have a lot to learn!


----------



## MRC001

bblegram said:


> ...
> I believe that an AMP that can deliver this power, has much better quality at lower volumes (11 o'clock for example ...) with low distortion ...


 
 Possibly but not necessarily.
  
 What you can be sure of is that an amp "X" rated to deliver 1 W of power at a certain level of distortion, will have equal or less distortion at lower output levels.
 However, you may find a different amp "Y" with a max output of only 100 mW that has lower distortion than amp "X" at 100 mW and below.
 If you only listen at 100 mW or less, then amp "Y" is better.
 And for the LCD-2, 100 mW makes 110 dB - even louder on the new LCD-2. This is super freaking loud.
  
 This is how unrealistically high power ratings can mislead people by encouraging them to overlook less powerful amps that have higher sound quality. The LCD-2 is easy to drive and doesn't need a ton of power. Quality is far more important.


----------



## bblegram

mrc001 said:


> Possibly but not necessarily.
> 
> What you can be sure of is that an amp "X" rated to deliver 1 W of power at a certain level of distortion, will have equal or less distortion at lower output levels.
> However, you may find a different amp "Y" with a max output of only 100 mW that has lower distortion than amp "X" at 100 mW and below.
> ...




again thank you! I'm learning a lot from you. taking advantage of their knowledge, what is your opinion on LCD -2 + meier audio CONCERT? is a good combo? I'm asking this because I'm almost buying a CONCERT.


----------



## Zashoomin

bblegram said:


> again thank you! I'm learning a lot from you. taking advantage of their knowledge, what is your opinion on LCD -2 + meier audio CONCERT? is a good combo? I'm asking this because I'm almost buying a CONCERT.


 
 it will work.  don't worry it is a very good amp.  I think you mean Concerto though.


----------



## MRC001

bblegram said:


> again thank you! I'm learning a lot from you. taking advantage of their knowledge, what is your opinion on LCD -2 + meier audio CONCERT? is a good combo? I'm asking this because I'm almost buying a CONCERT.


 
 I don't know yet. I bought a Meier Jazz because his design, parts selection, build quality and reasonable pricing impressed me, and he actually responds to emails. Also as someone who knows a little about EE the articles on ground driving and crossfeed on his web site were some of the few I've read that actually make sense - quite a relief from the techno-babble most companies publish.
  
 Haven't received the amp yet so I can't offer an opinion on sound quality with the LCD-2.


----------



## sling5s

I've used the LCD-2 with Lyr, Asgard, Violectric V200, Pioneer Vintage Amp and Vali.  I got to say that the Vali so far is the best for my preferences.  It really makes the LCD-2 lively and detailed.


----------



## Poladise

jones bob said:


> The magic is with this model only. The similar EL-84 and larger EL-34 amps are MEH at best. The secret is in the tubes and extremely good iron. The output tube is similar to the US 6AQ5 with a different pinout. Triode strapped they are as nearly as linear as a DHT 45, and sound it too. The OPTs are special too. Being the amp is from China, I take it as a happy accident that works far above its other siblings.


 

 Jones Bob, the Music Angel delivered a couple of days ago. Used the ebay trader from the link you posted.
 With only about 7 hours on it at the mo, it sounds pleasant sometimes with hints of vividness on vocals and strummed guitars. The midrange isn't as smooth as I'd like, but I'm sure burn-in and a caps swap will fix that.
  
 The thing I'm concerned with though is the lack of bass. It feels like I'm listening to mostly mid range and is quite fatiguing. With LCD2s, my Objective2 amp (which some think lacks weight) has more body and weight to the sound. Did burning in or changing caps affect the bass weight for you?


----------



## Poladise

sling5s said:


> I've used the LCD-2 with Lyr, Asgard, Violectric V200, Pioneer Vintage Amp and Vali.  I got to say that the Vali so far is the best for my preferences.  It really makes the LCD-2 lively and detailed.


 
 I like it when people list all amps they've heard and say why one was preferred. I think it'd be really useful if more people did that.
 I'll go too:
  
 Little Dot i+, Little Dot mkiii, O2, V200, RWA Corvina (single ended), Soloist.
  
 RWA Corvina because you could listen for hours with no fatigue. Also had the most refined treble and prettiest midrange.


----------



## MRC001

> Now when my Meier Corda Jazz arrives - any day now - I'll crawl into my hidey hole with the LCD-2 and a thousand or so CDs and come out a day later with a review.


 
 The postman brought my Corda Jazz today. I took a brief break from sonic heaven to add my thoughts to the Corda Jazz reviews already on this site. *I can definitely recommend the Corda Jazz amp as a good match for the LCD-2*.
 http://www.head-fi.org/products/meier-audio-corda-jazz/reviews/11023


----------



## Mirininc

I have 800 dollars to spend on a new amp/dac combo for my LCD-2 rev 2 Fazor. My only stipulation is that I don't want a tube amp. I can wait a couple more months and get a Conductor but that might be a little more than I am wanting to spend on an amp/dac. Thoughts?


----------



## goldendarko

Have you considered the Schiit Lyr as an amp, good pairing for the LCD-2. Also, you may want to look for a used Conductor, I picked mine up for $1100 (the highest end one retails for $1850), may be able to get a good deal on one, even though that's still a stretch in your price range.


----------



## jodgey4

An Audio-GD NFB-28 is right about at that price point, and is what I have. It's fully balanced with many functions, never sounds digital, can do ~7W into LCD-2.2f's IIRC, and is quite neutral. It should work great with anything but the most sensitive IEM's as I recently discovered. One idea, at least.


----------



## Zashoomin

mirininc said:


> I have 800 dollars to spend on a new amp/dac combo for my LCD-2 rev 2 Fazor. My only stipulation is that I don't want a tube amp. I can wait a couple more months and get a Conductor but that might be a little more than I am wanting to spend on an amp/dac. Thoughts?


 
 I never thought that the conductor was worth it.  I think that it is way overpriced and sounds stale but maybe that is just me.  I think you should wait a month and get a used Resonessence labs Concero and Schiit Moljnir.  That combo is just wow.  Other DACs are Bifrost and Gungnir (I think this DAC is overrated though).  Other amps to consider are Lyr, Bottlehead SEX, some audio-GD offerings, and Corda Classic.


----------



## Wildcatsare1

mirininc said:


> I have 800 dollars to spend on a new amp/dac combo for my LCD-2 rev 2 Fazor. My only stipulation is that I don't want a tube amp. I can wait a couple more months and get a Conductor but that might be a little more than I am wanting to spend on an amp/dac. Thoughts?




The Schiit Lyr, now in a "2" version/Bitrost DAC would put you slightly over your $800 budget, a Modi DAC at $109,comfortably under budget.


----------



## Mirininc

goldendarko said:


> Have you considered the Schiit Lyr as an amp, good pairing for the LCD-2. Also, you may want to look for a used Conductor, I picked mine up for $1100 (the highest end one retails for $1850), may be able to get a good deal on one, even though that's still a stretch in your price range.


 
  


wildcatsare1 said:


> The Schiit Lyr, now in a "2" version/Bitrost DAC would put you slightly over your $800 budget, a Modi DAC at $109,comfortably under budget.


 
 I am not considering a tube amp and I was going to go with a used Conductor as I can't justify the brand new price.
  
  
  


zashoomin said:


> I never thought that the conductor was worth it.  I think that it is way overpriced and sounds stale but maybe that is just me.  I think you should wait a month and get a used Resonessence labs Concero and Schiit Moljnir.  That combo is just wow.  Other DACs are Bifrost and Gungnir (I think this DAC is overrated though).  Other amps to consider are Lyr, Bottlehead SEX, some audio-GD offerings, and Corda Classic.


 
 I will definitely consider the Concero / Mjolnir combo. Thanks


jodgey4 said:


> An Audio-GD NFB-28 is right about at that price point, and is what I have. It's fully balanced with many functions, never sounds digital, can do ~7W into LCD-2.2f's IIRC, and is quite neutral. It should work great with anything but the most sensitive IEM's as I recently discovered. One idea, at least.


 
 That is crazy 7W? I am kind of torn because it is a chinese product. Does build quality feel cheap?


----------



## jodgey4

Not one bit cheap, it has a beautiful brushed finish, quite a bit of weight to it, solid connectors, and good warranty. I just rechecked my numbers, it's more like ~4.5 W balanced, maybe ~1.25 W SE. AGD is known for powerful and clean amps. Kingwa, the owner, is awesome.


----------



## vkalia

I have an Audio GD SA-31SE and LCD2s, and as I've said before on this thread:  I've listened to that, and I've listened to a Bakoon - and while I wasnt able to do an A/B test, I didnt hear anything in the session with the Bakoon to make me want tp buy it (and I had gone in to buy it  or something comparable - the SA31SE was intended as a stop-gap purchase).


----------



## Yitaro

Can someone offer their experience with the following 2 tube amps for my lcd-2 v.2. 
Little Dot mk6+ and Bottlehead S.E.X. 2.1 with C4S mod. 
I'm looking at going back to tube amp. Had the Mjolner but didn't like the sound. The sound is fatiguing after a while. I like the sound of Woo Audio WA6 but just wish it had more power and better sound stage.
Help me decide which amp to buy.


----------



## Mirininc

I do like the NFB-28, which is incredible for the price, and the  Mjolnir/Concero. With that being said, I don't know if I would go with them just because they only goes down to 20hz. I'd like to get a setup that goes down lower but I am finding the price jumps up the lower you go. I know I can't exactly hear much at 5hz but I sure can feel it. I saw a couple setups that go down that low but they are expensive. I am thinking that is the trend or am I wrong?


----------



## sling5s

Now there's new Lyr 2.  More neutral I heard.  Might be even better match with LCD-2


----------



## Wildcatsare1

20 HZ ????? That is not correct


----------



## Mirininc

wildcatsare1 said:


> 20 HZ ????? That is not correct


 
 I am only going off what they list on the sites. They might be able to go down lower but they don't list it?


----------



## Wildcatsare1

mirininc said:


> I am only going off what they list on the sites. They might be able to go down lower but they don't list it?




The Lyr 2 is listed at 20 HZ - 20 KHZ + or - 0.1 DB, which means it is flat in the audible spectrum, it provides power/current across to your HP, with virtually no change to the signal across the audio spectrum, you are misunderstanding this value.


----------



## Mirininc

wildcatsare1 said:


> The Lyr 2 is listed at 20 HZ - 20 KHZ + or - 0.1 DB, which means it is flat in the audible spectrum, it provides power/current across to your HP, with virtually no change to the signal across the audio spectrum, you are misunderstanding this value.


 
 Ohm I wasn't talking about Lyr 2. I don't want to use a tube amp though. Sorry for the confusion.


----------



## Argo Duck

Wildcats' observation is correct in general though, not just for Lyr2. Manufacturers (when they state a range at all) do so with a given dB tolerance like Wildcats mentioned. It doesn't mean there isn't usable energy outside the range. IIRC my power amp is 0.5 dB down at 5Hz, for example...


----------



## exsomnis

Dropping by to attest to the wonderful synergy with the Audio-gd Precision 1 headphone/speaker amp in high gain mode.  
  
 From another thread:
_"If I had to sum it up in one word, the LCD 2 + Precision 1s combo = natural.  It's a balanced, neutral and superbly well articulated sound - liquid without losing clarity.  The bass is full and textural.  The mids and vocals are present without being in your face about it.  The treble is precise and never harsh.  There's a here-ness to the presentation, the music envelopes and engages you and keeps you in suspension of belief because everything is really real."  _


----------



## TontonJoK

Love how my lcd 2 sounds with pan am and passport, compare to my SS amp the music is more alive


----------



## SP Wild

mirininc said:


> I am only going off what they list on the sites. They might be able to go down lower but they don't list it?


 

 The reason everything is specd 20 to 20 is because that is the standard.  CD players generally go a lot lower, and nearly all amps.  The 20 hz standard is to allow for techniques to block out DC.  This is normally accomplished in the first 2 hertz.  Look at a spectrum analyser and you will find a significant proportion of most recordings from many genres indicate activity well below 20 hz all the time.  Whether your transducer can create this or whether you can hear this is debatable.


----------



## Mirininc

sp wild said:


> The reason everything is specd 20 to 20 is because that is the standard.  CD players generally go a lot lower, and nearly all amps.  The 20 hz standard is to allow for techniques to block out DC.  This is normally accomplished in the first 2 hertz.  Look at a spectrum analyser and you will find a significant proportion of most recordings from many genres indicate activity well below 20 hz all the time.  Whether your transducer can create this or whether you can hear this is debatable.


 
 That is good to know thanks for the information. I am using the O2 right now and it doesn't list a sub 20hz on the specs page but I can still hear 10hz. I am using http://www.audiocheck.net/soundtests_headphones.php to hear the different levels. Granted I don't know how much + or - I am getting at that level but I can still hear it. 
  
 On another note, I chose the b22. I'll have my hands full on reading and picking out parts in the next couple months but it sounds like fun.


----------



## MRC001

sp wild said:


> The reason everything is specd 20 to 20 is because that is the standard.


 
 That's correct, though this standard is an approximation chosen for round numbers. Actual human hearing range is shifted slightly lower. Most people can hear below 20 Hz though very few can hear 20 kHz or higher. That said, many of the audible differences between headphones and amps are well within the audible spectrum. Differenting A from B is more about the brain than the ears. Your ears are already picking up some of the differences, but your brain is ignoring them so you don't "hear" them. Listener training makes a big difference.


----------



## stringgz301

Long-time LCD-2 owner here (version 1).  7500 posts into this thread and I'm going back to page 1 from Skylab.  Just picked up a used Leben CS300.  All I have to say is: Oh sweet lord, the music!
  
 I've played the LCD-2 through a bunch of headphone amps, including a balanced Cavalli EHHA (strong tight sound, very precise) and recently from the headphone out on my Benchmark-2 Dac (very clinical, a touch fatiguing).  The temptation with the LCD-2 is to want to analyze the music.
  
 Now listening to the Benchmark feeding the Leben and with great performances all I hear is music. All the detail is there, but instead of hearing how separate and distinct all the instruments are, I hear how they all fit together and how great the musical phrasing is.
  
 A few highlights:
  
 Skip, Hop, and Wobble (by Jerry Douglas, Russ Barenberg, & Edgar Meyer) - one of my all-time favorite recordings by 3 of the greatest studio musicians out there.  Gorgeous, tasty phrasing all day. You can see the three of them sitting there jamming
  
 Let It Bleed (Rolling Stones) - layers and layers of sound. The groove is completely infectious
  
 Live at Ronnie Scott's (Jeff Beck) - wow. Sitting in the front row for this incredible ensemble performance
  
 A Love Supreme (John Coltrane) - always loved this performance, but holy crap! Pushed play on this and didn't notice anything else for the next 35 minutes
  
 The First Time (Roberta Flack) - one of the best written songs ever. Put the LCD-2's on my wife to listen to this and she just closed her eyes and smiled for the whole song
  
  
  
 So, thanks Skylab. Short of some tube rolling, I'm not going to touch a thing with this setup.  Just sit and listen to great music.  Who needs sleep anyway.


----------



## kahldog

stringgz301 said:


> Long-time LCD-2 owner here (version 1).  7500 posts into this thread and I'm going back to page 1 from Skylab.  Just picked up a used Leben CS300.  All I have to say is: Oh sweet lord, the music!
> 
> I've played the LCD-2 through a bunch of headphone amps, including a balanced Cavalli EHHA (strong tight sound, very precise) and recently from the headphone out on my Benchmark-2 Dac (very clinical, a touch fatiguing).  The temptation with the LCD-2 is to want to analyze the music.
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks for the excellent review and recommendation! I have always read nothing but great things about the Leben amps. I am still backing my horse the Sophia Electric Baby. It outperforms everything I have compared it to. It puts  me in the same space as your Leben for exactly the same reason. Of course it requires a voltage divider network on the output as the 10watts is too much straight out for my Audeze LCD2.


----------



## saxelrod92

mrc001 said:


> I'm using a 1999 Headroom Maxed out Home to drive LCD-2 rev 2 phones. Audeze recommends 1 watt but I think that is more than than most people need because Audeze's assumptions are conservatively high. The LCD-2 is amazingly efficient for an Ortho, actually play slightly louder at the same voltage than the HD-600s. They're easy to drive and don't need much power, you want a super clean low distortion amp but it doesn't need a ton of power.
> 
> Audeze suggests your music has 60 dB of dynamic range. Sure you can invent sounds that have 60 dB or more of dynamic range but the only *music* I know of with 60 dB of dynamic range is something like the Carmina Burana or the 1812 Overture with cannons being fired. In this case if you listen with the quiet parts at 90 dB SPL the loud parts will make your ears bleed and possibly explode your head.
> 
> ...


 

 I'm glad this post exists on here, because for so long I've seen people say things like "that amp running a max of 1 watt is only the bare minimum for your LCD 2s" yet every now and then I would see a post of someone using them with an amp that maxes out less than 1 watt and they love the sound, even compared to more powerful amps. Even on the Audeze forum post that has these power suggestions, theres a guy running them with an amp that outputs about 500 mW into 50 ohms and he loves the sound. So thank you for showing all the proper math behind why this is true. I thought of the analogy of like driving on the highway: one car with 200 horsepower is driving at 65 mph, and then next to it is a supercar with 700 horsepower also driving at 65 mph. if 65 mph is the same as maximum normal listening volume, then you see how whether you have 200 horsepower of 700 horsepower, you still easily achieve the same level of volume and dynamics. granted the lesser powered car will be using a bit more effort to maintain 65 mph, whilst the higher power car will be borderline idling in first or second gear. But in musical and amps terms, you would never really notice the difference. What you would notice is how good the ride is, and as long as your car can at least make it to 120 mph, then how good the ride is, is the only real difference and important factor.

 Also I'd like to note that I play drums, and for anyone else here whose ever played or stood next to someone who was playing, without ear protection, you will know exactly what 105-120dB actually sounds like. Because I feel a lot of people on here might not have a clear picture of how painfully loud that really is. Its a volume level that after 20 minutes of sound, you will literally be partially deaf for a good hour or two after. A loud cymbal will physically make your ear hurt as you feel the sound waves vibrating the inside of your ear (high pitched frequencies I should add). So yea, if you think you listen to music on the loud side and need an amp that can go close to 110 dB (excluding dynamic peaks) then you might want to rethink the dB number that you're actually listening to lol.

 On another quick side note/question, I tried plugging in my LCD 2's into my laptops 3.5mm jack just for curiosities sake (since that jack can drive my Denon d5000 pretty well) and in turn it sounded horrible, I mean not in qudio quality, but like it literally was too quiet to actually listen to it to any normal level at maxed out volume. I should mention to get the Denon's even at normal listening volume I have to max it out lol. So I was wondering if it only takes 1mW to get 90dB out of the LCD 2, and like 116dB for the Denons (I think, close to ti at least), then how ridiculously low of an output power does my laptop's 3.5mm jack have lol? According to the math it has to be less than 1mW lol, which is super low.


----------



## philiptw

Received my Burson Soloist SL today and did a quick A/B with my Little Dot MK3 (M8100 + 6H30Pi-EH) on my LCD-2.2. My Source was Line Out from a DX90.
  
 Some have said "OTL does not work with planar, you must get a powerful solid state"
 I have to say, the difference is not actually that big.. 
  
 Yes the bass sounds slightly better defined on the Soloist SL, yes the mid is a bit more spacious on the Soloist SL and yes the details are nicer on the Soloist SL
  
 BUT I think the Little Dot certainly does a competent job at driving the LCD2. 
  
 As @mrc001 suggested earlier, I now think the whole "you need 1W to drive LCD2" is rather untrue, unless you want to blow your eardrums up!
  
  
  
 If I gave the Soloist SL ~80%, the Little Dot would get ~70%
  
 Musicality between the 2 amps are equally as good and it just comes down to personal preference and financial status.
  
 So does the 10% difference between the 2 justify the price difference (~150-200GBP)?
  
 I personally think it doesn't. If one has the Little Dot already, I would not recommend buying the Burson Soloist SL.
 Unless money is no object, which I think is not the case for a significant amount of users on this forum....
  
 So would I return the Soloist SL?
 I am contemplating and at the moment it seems like a rather tempting option to free up 490GBP for very little degradation in sonic enjoyment..


----------



## HiFiRobot

I´m using the LCD-2 with the O2, ALO RX MK3-B, Violectric V200, ALO the National, ALO the Continental and BenchMark DAC1. And I have tried them with Burson Soloist (not Soloist SL) and some other amps can't rembember all of them. I listen to a lot of genres of Electro, Indie, Electronic Rock, EDM, Singer/Songwriter, some hiphop and some other stuff as well. Artist like Daft Punk, Florence & The Machine, Ratatat, The XX, Kid Cudi etc.
  
 The Soloist together with LCD-2 was a big disappointment for me. I was very excited to hear this combo but to my ears the Soloist turned the LCD-2 into an über-analytical bookshelf speaker with the LCD warmth and punch replaced by surgeon tools. After that I realized that musicality is much more important to me than detail retrieval. Although soundstage was good with Soloist. And that pairing might very well suit a lot of people, depending on what kind of sound signature you like. It just didn't work for me at all.
  
 For me the best pairing so far is Violectric V200. Which just is at another level compared to the other amps I own.
  
 Next step for me is probably tubes, the sound of my ALO Continental got me interested. Alo Pan Am or Lyr 2 are top on the list currently.


----------



## HPiper

philiptw said:


> Received my Burson Soloist SL today and did a quick A/B with my Little Dot MK3 (M8100 + 6H30Pi-EH) on my LCD-2.2. My Source was Line Out from a DX90.
> 
> Some have said "OTL does not work with planar, you must get a powerful solid state"
> I have to say, the difference is not actually that big..
> ...


 

 I listen to my LCD2's on my LDMk3 a LOT. It is a perfectly capable amp for those phones. Certainly they sound better on my Lyr but using the LD is still a pleasant experience.


----------



## montanari

audeze 2 with the soloist (conductor) and even more with a silver cable (silver widow) it s perfect for my tastes
 with a good aftermat copper cable the sound is fuller but less fast with a smaller soundstage
 i think with the violectric it become too dark and warm
 so, again, i guess it s just a matter of taste
  
 I listen from  jazz avant free modern to folk to heavy dark electronic (everything except classical)


----------



## Megalomaniak

hifirobot said:


> I´m using the LCD-2 with the O2, ALO RX MK3-B, Violectric V200, ALO the National, ALO the Continental and BenchMark DAC1. And I have tried them with Burson Soloist (not Soloist SL) and some other amps can't rembember all of them. I listen to a lot of genres of Electro, Indie, Electronic Rock, EDM, Singer/Songwriter, some hiphop and some other stuff as well. Artist like Daft Punk, Florence & The Machine, Ratatat, The XX, Kid Cudi etc.
> 
> The Soloist together with LCD-2 was a big disappointment for me. I was very excited to hear this combo but to my ears the Soloist turned the LCD-2 into an über-analytical bookshelf speaker with the LCD warmth and punch replaced by surgeon tools. After that I realized that musicality is much more important to me than detail retrieval. Although soundstage was good with Soloist. And that pairing might very well suit a lot of people, depending on what kind of sound signature you like. It just didn't work for me at all.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yep, I agree with you, I dont like the Bursons with my LCD2.2, not being a matter of power but tone, I guess in a few weeks I'll have my V281 at home


----------



## buhd4life

Anyone heard the LCD-2rev2's with the project ember kits? I was thinking of getting one as an alternative to the Lyr2 but wanted to hear some opinions/feedback first. Would be using my Aune T1 as a DAC for the mean time!


----------



## Justin_Time

hifirobot said:


> I´m using the LCD-2 with the O2, ALO RX MK3-B, Violectric V200, ALO the National, ALO the Continental and BenchMark DAC1. And I have tried them with Burson Soloist (not Soloist SL) and some other amps can't rembember all of them. I listen to a lot of genres of Electro, Indie, Electronic Rock, EDM, Singer/Songwriter, some hiphop and some other stuff as well. Artist like Daft Punk, Florence & The Machine, Ratatat, The XX, Kid Cudi etc.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 


I fully concur. The Soloist performance with the LCD2/3 was belows my expectations given many glowing reviews I have read here. 

If you have been in this game long enough, however, you know that no audio component is perfect--shocking! So you often have to try various combinations of DAC/amp/cable/headphones to get to your favorite sound.

As good as it is, the LCD2.2 and LCD3 still suffer from a pervasive coloration over most of the audible range: a caramel coating that sweetens the sound. This is a euphonic coloration that many love but some--myself included--find a little "dark." I personally perceive this coloration as a slightly muffled honking akin to the sound made when you talk with your hands cupped around your mouth.

At a relatively affordable price range, I also found the combination LCD/Silver Poison or Silver Widow/V200 to produce excellent sound with much reduced caramel coating. You get a clearer, more opened sound with excellent bass impact (tight and punchy) and wide dynamic range (contrast between low and high volume), The Schiit Moljnir adds much needed sparkles to the LCD sound, which many will find exciting but may be fatiguing in the long run for others.

If you are willing to invest more money into the system, I found two SS amps that can do an oustadining job with the LCD: the Bakoon HPA-21 with a (surprisingly) warm but vividly detailed and smooth midrange and excellent bass. My favorite SS amp with the LCD is the GS-X Mark2. What you get is a very smooth midrange nearly free of the caramel (dark) corolation. Gone is the slightly muffled honking. What you get is feathery, silky details, palpable presence and outstanding bass, tight and impactful. 

Two tube/hybrid amps also work great with the LCD. Both amps produce highly musical sound with the LCD. The Woo WA5-LE (with upgraded parts and tubes) delivers a clean, dynamic midrange supported by a thunderous bass--one of the best I have ever heard. The other amp, the EAR HP-4, has a sweet, musical and yet detailed and dynamic sound with the LCD with plenty of tight bass and excellent impact. I did not try to roll the tubes as the HP-4 designer insisted that the amps was tuned with the stock tubes and sounded best with them.

While these 4 amps are expensive ($3000-$5000) they make good investment if you have many pairs of headphones or plan on getting different ones. My personal experience is that these amps perform exceedingly well with the GradoPS1000, HD800, TH-900, Ultrasone 8 and 10, HE-500 and HE-6--yes all these four amps, even the diminutive Bakoon, can drive the HE-6 to a very satisfying volume! They also minimize the harshness/raspiness in the PS1000, with tend to sound like screeching banshees with lesser amps.


----------



## Argo Duck

^ Nice notes. This "caramel coating" may be what Audez'e referred to recently (with reference to the LCD3/LCD3F changeover) as "burnished".

I keep hearing good things about the GS-X mk 2, but plan to see how Ragnarok fares first. Tube-wise I'm more than happy with a (pure tube) Decware Taboo mk2 which can be tuned over a wide range, including toward neutral, dynamic ("vivid") and resolving of low-level detail and dynamics.


----------



## Justin_Time

argo duck said:


> ^ Nice notes. This "caramel coating" may be what Audez'e referred to recently (with reference to the LCD3/LCD3F changeover) as "burnished".
> 
> I keep hearing good things about the GS-X mk 2, but plan to see how Ragnarok fares first. Tube-wise I'm more than happy with a (pure tube) Decware Taboo mk2 which can be tuned over a wide range, including toward neutral, dynamic ("vivid") and resolving of low-level detail and dynamics.




Aidee,

Thanks for I your comments.

The GS-X is not a good amp. It is a great one! 

From my experience with SS amps, only the Bakoon is on the same level, with better warmth in the midrange -- the GS-X can sound sterile sometimes with poor recordings--but the GS-X has more punch in the bass . The Bakkon may need a bigger power supply.

With tube amps I have owned or heard, only the Apex Pinnacle sounds slightly better than the GS-X Mark 2 overall--at a whopping 10 grands, it better.

Please report on the Ragnarok when you can. I am very curious.

Cheers.


----------



## Argo Duck

^ Will do. Could be a while though. I plan to wait for Yggdrasil first. Cheers!


----------



## mmlogic

stringgz301 said:


> Long-time LCD-2 owner here (version 1).  7500 posts into this thread and I'm going back to page 1 from Skylab.  Just picked up a used Leben CS300.  All I have to say is: Oh sweet lord, the music!
> 
> I've played the LCD-2 through a bunch of headphone amps, including a balanced Cavalli EHHA (strong tight sound, very precise) and recently from the headphone out on my Benchmark-2 Dac (very clinical, a touch fatiguing).  The temptation with the LCD-2 is to want to analyze the music.
> 
> ...


 
 You took the words right out of my mouth stringgz, I'm also a long-time LCD-2 owner, I've tried many amps these years (Tabbo3, Beta22, Soloist, Mjolnir, V200, SoloUL, LittleDot6... ), no one came close to CS300 in reproducing live like music.
  
 To me there are two kinds of headphone amp, CS300 and the others.


----------



## willmax

Hi guys, I just acquired a LCD2.2 from a fellow head-fier. Now I tell you it is a bit daunting 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 to have to plow through 500 pages of amp recommendation for the LCD2
 Can someone please tell me/ or point me to the right post about what is the consensus on the best sub $500 (new) $400 (used) amp or DAC/amp combo for the LCD2.2?

  
 I've been thinking about Yulong D100 MKII, Asus Xonar E1, Asgard 2, Qinpu A-6000 mkii.
  
  
 Any help would be appreciated. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Cheers
  
 Edit: _Forgot to mention, I'm mainly after solid state, Qinpu only exception above._


----------



## sludgeogre

willmax said:


> Hi guys, I just acquired a LCD2.2 from a fellow head-fier. Now I tell you it is a bit daunting
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I'm using the Asgard 2 and I absolutely love it.


----------



## TontonJoK

The alo pan am with Russian tubes is just about love too


----------



## willmax

sludgeogre said:


> I'm using the Asgard 2 and I absolutely love it.


 

 Thank you, the Asgard 2 looks tempting.


----------



## Justin_Time

stringgz301 said:


> Long-time LCD-2 owner here (version 1).  7500 posts into this thread and I'm going back to page 1 from Skylab.  Just picked up a used Leben CS300.  All I have to say is: Oh sweet lord, the music!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 


Stringgz,

Thank you for sharing you experience with us. Very useful information.

I have owned and listened to many, many amps with the LCD2/3 and would hate to try another one unless it is a must-have killer amp.

Could you compare the sound of the LCD2/3 - Leben combination with the sound of the LCD2/3 driven by some of the following amps that I have owned and whose sound I am intimately familiar with:

Burson soloist 
Bryston BHA-1
Schiit Mjolnir
Vioelectric V181or V200
GS-X Mk2
Bakoon HPA-21
Apex Peak/volcano
Eddie Current Super 7
RWA Corvina or Bellina
Cavalli Liquid Fire
Woo WA5-LE or Woo WA5
EAR HP4

To my ears, so far the best amps for the LCD2/3 (and the HE-6) are GS-X Mk2 and the Bakoon HPA-21 for SS design and the Woo WA5-LE (or WA5) and the EAR HP4 for tube/hybrid design.

Cheers,

Justin Time (ST)


----------



## willmax

willmax said:


> Hi guys, I just acquired a LCD2.2 from a fellow head-fier. Now I tell you it is a bit daunting
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 ^ Any more opinions on the above, anyone?


----------



## TontonJoK

Schiit Mjolnir or Violectric V200 used but it's closer to 600 $ than 500

If you want to enhance the highs then get schiit or a warm sound then the Violectric


----------



## MRC001

mrc001 said:


> The postman brought my Corda Jazz today. I took a brief break from sonic heaven to add my thoughts to the Corda Jazz reviews already on this site. *I can definitely recommend the Corda Jazz amp as a good match for the LCD-2*.
> http://www.head-fi.org/products/meier-audio-corda-jazz/reviews/11023


 

 I finally got around to measuring the Jazz. It was a bit tricky to measure due to its balanced active ground output stage. It's one of the cleanest amps I've ever measured, which was no surprise given how great it sounds subjectively.
http://mclements.net/Mike/mrc-blog/blog-140615.html
 If you want to hear what the actual recording sounds like without any coloration or distortion, it's hard to image whether "better performance" has any real meaning in practical terms. So long as you keep the volume knob below the 3:00 position, the Jazz has no measurable or audible flaws, either subjectively or objectively. I'm not sure if it has the oomph to drive really inefficient headphones like the HE-6, but for the 99% of other headphones in the world, including my LCD-2 rev 3, it would be hard to beat at any price.


----------



## Skydog71

I have a RWA bellina HPA and love it.  Nice because you can do a little tube rolling and it is portable from room to room.


----------



## willmax

tontonjok said:


> Schiit Mjolnir or Violectric V200 used but it's closer to 600 $ than 500
> 
> If you want to enhance the highs then get schiit or a warm sound then the Violectric


 

 Thanks, I'm sure those are great amps - highly praised here too, unfortunately they are way over my budget even if in used condition.
 After a bit more research now I'm leaning towards either Audio GD NFB-15 or Matrix M-Stage amp. Both seem to deliver great sound for buck and also capable to be used not only with the LCD2 but my other cans as well.


----------



## Megalomaniak

willmax said:


> Thanks, I'm sure those are great amps - highly praised here too, unfortunately they are way over my budget even if in used condition.
> After a bit more research now I'm leaning towards either Audio GD NFB-15 or Matrix M-Stage amp. Both seem to deliver great sound for buck and also capable to be used not only with the LCD2 but my other cans as well.


 
  
 If you can get it cheap there in Aus, the Asgard 2 from Schiit is a ver good Amp, or the Lyr. Also the Compass 2 from AudioGD.
  
 I drive my LCD-2s out of a Matrix M-Stage and it sounds good, with a better amp you get more slam and bass/sub-bass, but for the price you cant get better. Also I like it with the HD6X0, Beyer DTs and the Senn HD800s.
  
 Im waiting for a Violectric V281 tho


----------



## willmax

megalomaniak said:


> If you can get it cheap there in Aus, the Asgard 2 from Schiit is a ver good Amp, or the Lyr. Also the Compass 2 from AudioGD.
> 
> I drive my LCD-2s out of a Matrix M-Stage and it sounds good, with a better amp you get more slam and bass/sub-bass, but for the price you cant get better. Also I like it with the HD6X0, Beyer DTs and the Senn HD800s.
> 
> Im waiting for a Violectric V281 tho


 

 Thanks for your impression, we even have a very similar headphone line-up by the looks of it


----------



## Sound Eq

i recently bought a used well maintained audeze lcd2 rev2, and i noticed in the low end frequencies that sometimes the sound is like rumbles or distorts when there is extra bass, I am waiting for my chord hugo to arrive so right now I am using just the ifi ican nano as an amp connected to fiio 18 as dac.
  
 so for example if i play the song magic by coldplay which has a lot of low end notes i feel something is not right in the low end, is that because i am using a bad dac and amp, and things will improve with chord hugo or is the audeze lcd2 rev2 not good in playing heavy bass music


----------



## Megalomaniak

sound eq said:


> i recently bought a used well maintained audeze lcd2 rev2, and i noticed in the low end frequencies that sometimes the sound is like rumbles or distorts when there is extra bass, I am waiting for my chord hugo to arrive so right now I am using just the ifi ican nano as an amp connected to fiio 18 as dac.
> 
> so for example if i play the song magic by coldplay which has a lot of low end notes i feel something is not right in the low end, is that because i am using a bad dac and amp, and things will improve with chord hugo or is the audeze lcd2 rev2 not good in playing heavy bass music


 
  
 Coldplay has some of the worst recording Ive ever heard, so im pretty sure the problem comes from the lack of detail, high distorsion of the recording and all the compressing crap.
  
 Im listening to it right now from youtube and sounds like crap (no offense)
  
 Try these for bass quality:
  

  
 Thats clean electronic bass.
  
 Some clean acoustics bass:
  

  
 Electronic sub-bass (volume up please!)


----------



## DarrenLays

sound eq said:


> i recently bought a used well maintained audeze lcd2 rev2, and i noticed in the low end frequencies that sometimes the sound is like rumbles or distorts when there is extra bass, I am waiting for my chord hugo to arrive so right now I am using just the ifi ican nano as an amp connected to fiio 18 as dac.
> 
> so for example if i play the song magic by coldplay which has a lot of low end notes i feel something is not right in the low end, is that because i am using a bad dac and amp, and things will improve with chord hugo or is the audeze lcd2 rev2 not good in playing heavy bass music


 
  
  
 I figured I'd give it a listen and compare, I'll listen to it on spotify premium with LCD-2 rev 3 with o2+odac as my source+amp:
  
  
 The bass has quite a bit of "thump thump" and impact, you definitely notice it's there, I don't notice any rumbles or distorts.
  
  
 What source are you listening to the song on?  Youtube, pandora, itunes, spotify, something else perhaps?


----------



## Sound Eq

darrenlays said:


> I figured I'd give it a listen and compare, I'll listen to it on spotify premium with LCD-2 rev 3 with o2+odac as my source+amp:
> 
> 
> The bass has quite a bit of "thump thump" and impact, you definitely notice it's there, I don't notice any rumbles or distorts.
> ...


 
 i have both in flac and mp3
  
 its not distortion its as if the bass in not hitting right , i can't describe it good, its thump thump with rattling  i will check when my chord hugo arrives as the fiio18 as a dac has high mid bass, and sometimes when i use bass boost on fiio18 that what happens the rattling thump thump bass


----------



## DarrenLays

sound eq said:


> i have both in flac and mp3
> 
> its not distortion its as if the bass in not hitting right , i can't describe it good, its thump thump with rattling  i will check when my chord hugo arrives as the fiio18 as a dac has high mid bass, and sometimes when i use bass boost on fiio18 that what happens the rattling thump thump bass


 
  
  
 Hmmph, yes definitely try it with the hugo first, because mine doesn't have a rattling noise. (Atleast not that I can notice)


----------



## Sound Eq

megalomaniak said:


> Coldplay has some of the worst recording Ive ever heard, so im pretty sure the problem comes from the lack of detail, high distorsion of the recording and all the compressing crap.
> 
> Im listening to it right now from youtube and sounds like crap (no offense)
> 
> ...





 I will try those at home, I totally agree their recording quality is so bad, I really cant figure it out how come artists don't care about their quality recordings and accept what record companies push out.
  
 its so bad as most of the music genres I like ( synthpop, progressive rock, metal ) most suck in quality, and really sometimes if i like a band and their quality recordings suck then I stop listening to them completely, but many music gems are suffering from bad recording.
  
 One band I started to really dislike is ( Hurts )  especially their latest album ( exile ) their first song in the album is maybe the worst ever recoded quality ever.
  
 What a shame


----------



## Megalomaniak

sound eq said:


> I will try those at home, I totally agree their recording quality is so bad, I really cant figure it out how come artists don't care about their quality recordings and accept what record companies push out.
> 
> its so bad as most of the music genres I like ( synthpop, progressive rock, metal ) most suck in quality, and really sometimes if i like a band and their quality recordings suck then I stop listening to them completely, but many music gems are suffering from bad recording.
> 
> ...


 
 Yeah, neither I can. This is a common topic around my audio-hobby friends, with the technology we have nowadays, that many youtubers can compose and record very nice songs/covers with just one computer and a couple thousand dollars midi-mixer, why the hell the recording studios have such bad quality on their releases.
  
 I dont get it, drives me nuts.


----------



## Sound Eq

Really I am so amazed how come a band like HURTS in their exile album record such bad quality, I really wish to hear from you guys about what you think about the song called also Exile which is their first song in that album how bad you think it is


----------



## Megalomaniak

sound eq said:


> Really I am so amazed how come a band like HURTS in their exile album record such bad quality, I really wish to hear from you guys about what you think about the song called also Exile which is their first song in that album how bad you think it is


 
  
 I will give it a try as soon as I arrive home today (9 hours from now).


----------



## DarrenLays

sound eq said:


> Really I am so amazed how come a band like HURTS in their exile album record such bad quality, I really wish to hear from you guys about what you think about the song called also Exile which is their first song in that album how bad you think it is


 
  
  
 Where are you listening to it and what part has really bad quality in the recording?  I'll give it a listen and see if I notice


----------



## TontonJoK

sound eq said:


> i recently bought a used well maintained audeze lcd2 rev2, and i noticed in the low end frequencies that sometimes the sound is like rumbles





How old is the lcd 2.2 ??
At worst with audeze I read somewhere in the forum that you could claim for warranty even not being the first buyer


----------



## Sound Eq

megalomaniak said:


> Coldplay has some of the worst recording Ive ever heard, so im pretty sure the problem comes from the lack of detail, high distorsion of the recording and all the compressing crap.
> 
> Im listening to it right now from youtube and sounds like crap (no offense)
> 
> ...




I played these files on my audeze and no rattling, about the Coldplay song ( mqgic) the rattling occurs whem i increase the low wnd frequencies by 1 or 2 db in audiravna player but when flat no rattling. Sometimes i like to increase the low end frequencies so i get more punch in low end notes on my audeze and this is where sometimes in some songs i experience rattling bass.


----------



## jodgey4

sound eq said:


> I played these files on my audeze and no rattling, about the Coldplay song ( mqgic) the rattling occurs whem i increase the low wnd frequencies by 1 or 2 db in audiravna player but when flat no rattling. Sometimes i like to increase the low end frequencies so i get more punch in low end notes on my audeze and this is where sometimes in some songs i experience rattling bass.


 
 EQ'ing up tries to add info that isn't there, so it always sounds awful. Instead, EQ what you don't want down, and then just turn your volume up. That will help stop the rattle.


----------



## Megalomaniak

sound eq said:


> I played these files on my audeze and no rattling, about the Coldplay song ( mqgic) the rattling occurs whem i increase the low wnd frequencies by 1 or 2 db in audiravna player but when flat no rattling. Sometimes i like to increase the low end frequencies so i get more punch in low end notes on my audeze and this is where sometimes in some songs i experience rattling bass.


 
  
 What jodgey4 said, Software EQ should be for decrease, not increase.
  
 Also, you are EQing a song that sounds awfuly compressed, thats not a good idea!
  
 Anyway, if you dont get rattling with my files, dont worry at all.


----------



## Amish

This is a nice pairing I must say. Been totally impressed with the Project Ember amp.


----------



## willmax

I'm getting a lot of enjoyment just running my LCD2 rev2 from ODAC/O2 combo. I don't think one can get any better performance at this price point.
 By the way I don't think I'll be missing the Modi/Magni much


----------



## buson160man

I recommend the concept 16.5 vintage circa 1978 monster receiver. This baby is big it weighs in at a back breaking 67 pounds!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You just have to see the power supply on this puppy. I seriously doubt any normal headphone amp has one that is this beefy including ones like the cavallis. I very recently bought a recapped and serviced unit. After two weeks I am in heaven. The 16.5 drives the lcd2 v2s with an authority that I have never heard from the lcd2. I picked the receiver up for a grand and frankly I have to say that I feel that I stole it for that price. I doubt very seriously that I could find anything that can match this combination for that price at least not easily unless it was another restored 16.5. Check this one out on the internet and do a google search for a concept 16.5 receiver.


----------



## DarrenLays

Could someone perhaps help me?  I want to upgrade from my o2+ odac, but not sure what I want. Preferably around the ~500 $ range.
 I've looked at the lyr, but not sure. Someone that has an o2+lyr tested them A/b and said he couldn't really tell any big differences apart, but not sure what else to look at really.
  
 Sometimes I feel the o2 just doesn't have the umph at higher volumes to keep up.
  
 I have LCD-2 w/ fazor, 70 ohms if that matters.


----------



## jodgey4

The non-Fazor 2's are reccomended between 1-4W of clean power; the Fazor increases efficiency (though at 20 ohms higher impedance) by 3db/mW, so the new recommendation should be 0.5-2W of clean power... if that helps your decision any.


----------



## DarrenLays

jodgey4 said:


> The non-Fazor 2's are reccomended between 1-4W of clean power; the Fazor increases efficiency (though at 20 ohms higher impedance) by 3db/mW, so the new recommendation should be 0.5-2W of clean power... if that helps your decision any.


 
  
  
 It still says 1-4 w on the site , should I concern myself with that, or have they just not updated it?


----------



## jodgey4

darrenlays said:


> It still says 1-4 w on the site , should I concern myself with that, or have they just not updated it?


 
 I'm just assuming they haven't updated it, most power recommendations come from figuring out how much power it would take to reach a certain db peak level (120 db is the upper-end standard, some argue that 106 or something is the max you'd ever need for 99% of listening). Remember, you need 2x the power to get ~3db louder. So, the difference between a 2W max amp and 4W is just 3 db.


----------



## MRC001

darrenlays said:


> Could someone perhaps help me?  I want to upgrade from my o2+ odac, but not sure what I want. Preferably around the ~500 $ range.
> I have LCD-2 w/ fazor, 70 ohms if that matters.


 
 I have the same model LCD-2 as you. I am using a Meier Corda Jazz. Look it up on the reviews section of this site and you'll find it's an superb amp - it sounds great and also has excellent meaurements. Cost was $415 as of a few months ago. It's comparable to the best amps at 3+ times its price.


----------



## DarrenLays

mrc001 said:


> I have the same model LCD-2 as you. I am using a Meier Corda Jazz. Look it up on the reviews section of this site and you'll find it's an superb amp - it sounds great and also has excellent meaurements. Cost was $415 as of a few months ago. It's comparable to the best amps at 3+ times its price.


 
  
  
 What's the output wattage at 70 ohms? I'm not sure it says on the spec-sheet what the output wattage is, all I see is "power uptake"
  
 Maybe I'm blind though :3


----------



## MRC001

When I asked Jan Meier this question, he said the Jazz can output 300 mA / 15 V as peak power and can easily cruise along at 500 mW continuous power.
  
 I've read that 25% efficiency is a rough general guide for class A biased amps like the Jazz. With power uptake of 5W, that would give 1.25W continuous power, making Jan's 500 mW estimate very conservatively low for distortion-free continuous power.
  
 500 mW into an LCD-2 fazer is 120 dB SPL, enough to melt your skull and cause permanent hearing damage. The Jazz has an electronically actuated ladder stepped attenuator volume control (no potentiometer in the signal path), so it has virtually perfect channel balance and no noise or distortion throughout the entire range of the knob.


----------



## Argo Duck

Jan does indeed quote conservatively. Unfortunate as there is a tendency on head-fi to say orthos need "moar power" :rolleyes:


----------



## dsd-7

I have heard the LCD-2's and Woo Audio amps go well together.  I am thinking of pairing LCD-2's with a Woo Audio WA6.


----------



## Lohb

Hi, a friend was asking for something in the $2k range for LCD-2s...what would be about the best at that price range ?


----------



## bassboysam

dsd-7 said:


> I have heard the LCD-2's and Woo Audio amps go well together.  I am thinking of pairing LCD-2's with a Woo Audio WA6.




I have this combo and they work well together. The WA6 can certainly drive the LCD-2 but with my Rev1 the sound was a bit too dull in the treble region and there was a little less dynamics than I would like. I prefer my Fiio A1 with the LCD-2 than the WA6 but not by much, I mean we're splitting hairs and if I'm causally listening to music while doing other things there is no way I would hear a difference.


----------



## dsd-7

Yea I have heard the LCD-2's sound signature is somewhat rolled off in the treble.  I figure rolling some tubes with the WA6 could be interesting.  Maybe tubes with a clear, detailed sound characteristic?  I'm going off on a tangent here, but tube rolling can be fun.  I wouldn't try overly warm sounding tubes with this combo though.  Probably too much of a good thing.


----------



## MRC001

dsd-7 said:


> Yea I have heard the LCD-2's sound signature is somewhat rolled off in the treble


 
 True of the LCD-2 rev 1. The rev 2 and latest version fazor don't roll off the treble. They have virtually perfect flat frequency response. I say "virtually perfect" because the definition of "flat" depends on the HRTF you use.


----------



## dsd-7

Ahh, thanks for clarifying that.


----------



## MRC001

lohb said:


> Hi, a friend was asking for something in the $2k range for LCD-2s...what would be about the best at that price range ?


 

 Is there a reason he wants to spend $2k on an amp? The LCD-2 is an easy headphone to drive (purely resistive, highish impedance, good efficiency). For half that price or less you can get an amp capable of driving the LCD-2 at any volume your ears can withstand, with complete sonic transparency. By "sonic transparency" I mean all forms of distortion well below audible thresholds.


----------



## bassboysam

My Fiio A1 cost $75.


----------



## dfarina

I have in the past owned a Violectric V200($1000 new) with a set of LCD-2's and found it to be an amazing combination,regretting selling that combo so much that I just re-purchased again.Hope that magic it had together is not lost with the new LCD-2 fazor that I am waiting for to be delivered


----------



## Lohb

mrc001 said:


> Is there a reason he wants to spend $2k on an amp? The LCD-2 is an easy headphone to drive (purely resistive, highish impedance, good efficiency). For half that price or less you can get an amp capable of driving the LCD-2 at any volume your ears can withstand, with complete sonic transparency. By "sonic transparency" I mean all forms of distortion well below audible thresholds.


 

 He just wanted a tip for a DAC/amp at entry-level and stuff higher up as well. Right now I'm only familiar with entry-level stuff...sub-$500.


----------



## Lohb

bassboysam said:


> My Fiio A1 cost $75.


 

 Like you, I will not immediately discount the ability of an amp based on price.


----------



## MRC001

lohb said:


> He just wanted a tip for a DAC/amp at entry-level and stuff higher up as well. Right now I'm only familiar with entry-level stuff...sub-$500.


 

 Ah, a DAC+amp, not just an amp. That does bump the price a bit higher.
 The Benchmark DAC-1 and Grace m902 or m903 are both what I would consider well designed, well built from high quality parts, reference quality and sonically transparent.
 By "sonically transparent" I don't mean to imply they sound exactly the same... but both being well designed for clean, neutral, transparent response, with measurable distortion below audible levels, they can't help but sound similar, even if not identical.
 If he's looking for something different, like that tubiliciuos sound, that's a whole 'nuther thing.


----------



## DarrenLays

Is there any decent tube amps I could try without breaking the bank? ~200$?
 Preferably something with a good resell value, as I'd end up re-selling it if I didn't like it.
  
 (Even if it costs more, as long as the company has a really good return policy I'd be ok)
 I mostly want to demo it in-home for a week or so, out of curiosity!


----------



## goldendarko

Schiit lyr used. Excellent resale value.


----------



## Amish

darrenlays said:


> Is there any decent tube amps I could try without breaking the bank? ~200$?
> Preferably something with a good resell value, as I'd end up re-selling it if I didn't like it.
> 
> (Even if it costs more, as long as the company has a really good return policy I'd be ok)
> I mostly want to demo it in-home for a week or so, out of curiosity!


 

 Contact Garage1217 and see if Jeremy can send you a demo. Doesn't hurt to ask.


----------



## DarrenLays

amish said:


> Contact Garage1217 and see if Jeremy can send you a demo. Doesn't hurt to ask.


 
  
 What sort of amp should I ask to demo? I'm really quite new to this scene!


----------



## Amish

darrenlays said:


> What sort of amp should I ask to demo? I'm really quite new to this scene!


 

 Depends what you want. If solid state then ask for the Polaris. If tube rolling then the Ember, Starlight or Sunrise III.
  
 Personally I'd ask for the Ember if possible but the others are good choices.


----------



## Yitaro

Just took delivery of the Musical Paradise Mp-401 mk2. I am very impressed with the headphone output of this tube integrated amp. This is a great pairing with the lcd-2. The MP-401 mk2 has smooth midrange of the Woo Audio wa6 and the slamming bass of the Mjolner. The sound stage is huge. My lcd-2 never sounded better. As an added bonus, this amp has 18 watt se speaker output. Another thing, this amp is dead silent. Just like the wa6.


----------



## DarrenLays

yitaro said:


> Just took delivery of the Musical Paradise Mp-401 mk2. I am very impressed with the headphone output of this tube integrated amp. This is a great pairing with the lcd-2. The MP-401 mk2 has smooth midrange of the Woo Audio wa6 and the slamming bass of the Mjolner. The sound stage is huge. My lcd-2 never sounded better. As an added bonus, this amp has 18 watt se speaker output. Another thing, this amp is dead silent. Just like the wa6.


 
  
 How much did it run ya?


----------



## Yitaro

DarrenLays,  it cost me $830 plus $150 for the shipping.  This amp is very well build and it sounds just amazing.  Been looking for tube amp that has the attributes of the WA6 and Mjolner combined and I found it in the MP-401 mk2.  With the Mjolner, the bass guitar sounds like a bass guitar but with the MP-401 mk2, the bass guitar sounds like a bass guitar being plugged by the musician's fingers.    Instruments and voices sound so real.  The only time I heard something similar  to  this was with the Woo Audio WA6 SE but the MP-401 mk2 has better bass attack and bigger sound stage.  I am happy to pay the asking price just for the headphone section.  It is that good.
 According to Garry, the owner of Musical Paradise, the MP-401 mk2 provides 2.88 watt of power at 50ohm.


----------



## DarrenLays

Has anybody heard the LCD-2 with an Emotiva Mini X?
 I found one for cheap, and I'm not sure if it'd be worth the upgrade from my objective 2?


----------



## Sound Eq

i have the chord how do u see its fits the audeze lcd2 rev2, is there a better mobile amp/dac than chord to suit audeze lcd 2 rev2


----------



## fabio-fi

sound eq said:


> i have the chord how do u see its fits the audeze lcd2 rev2, is there a better mobile amp/dac than chord to suit audeze lcd 2 rev2


 
  
 If you mean the Chord hugo, Yes. But i prefer use it as a Dac with a separate headphone amp for better results with Audeze LCD2 and other planars


----------



## sexhero

I am thinking about getting LCD 2.2. I currently have Centrance Hifi-M8 and have a couple questions:
  
 1. How does M8 pair with LCD 2.2? 
  
 2. What other desktop amp and DAC would pair better with LCD 2.2? My budget is ~$1000 for both amp and DAC.
  
 Thanks!


----------



## Sound Eq

fabio-fi said:


> If you mean the Chord hugo, Yes. But i prefer use it as a Dac with a separate headphone amp for better results with Audeze LCD2 and other planars


 

 any great portable amps that can drive the  audeze  and have bass boost using chord hugo as dac


----------



## Chris_Himself

sexhero said:


> I am thinking about getting LCD 2.2. I currently have Centrance Hifi-M8 and have a couple questions:
> 
> 1. How does M8 pair with LCD 2.2?
> 
> ...


 
  
 1.4W, it would do it but it wouldn't be happy with it.
  
 I would probably go have a look at some of Schiit's offerings


----------



## montanari

my burson conductor should provide around 1.5W to my lcd2 and i m more than satisfy..


----------



## sludgeogre

chris_himself said:


> 1.4W, it would do it but it wouldn't be happy with it.
> 
> I would probably go have a look at some of Schiit's offerings


 
 My Asgard 2 does a bit under a watt and I absolutely love it with my LCD-2.2, the newest ones are lower impedance and higher sensitivity, so they don't need quite as much power. I think he should be fine.


----------



## TontonJoK

For 550 $ 399 +150 
Go for alo pan am + passport
Just perfect
big bass and pure bliss

:atsmile:


----------



## fabio-fi

sexhero said:


> I am thinking about getting LCD 2.2. I currently have Centrance Hifi-M8 and have a couple questions:
> 
> 1. How does M8 pair with LCD 2.2?
> 
> ...


 
  
 1- Can't comment on the M8. 
 2- The conductor SL models are a good option. Or you can also go with separates such as the Soloist SL + Dac which are very popular among Audeze users. 
  


sound eq said:


> any great portable amps that can drive the  audeze  and have bass boost using chord hugo as dac


 
  
 Look into the Ray samuels portable range. 
 If i were you. try the hugo with the audeze first and see if you feel the need of extra driving power.


----------



## sexhero

fabio-fi said:


> 2- The conductor SL models are a good option. Or you can also go with separates such as the Soloist SL + Dac which are very popular among Audeze users.


 
  
 What DAC would you recommend with Soloist? I was actually comparing Soloist SL, Lyr and WA6. Could you tell anything about the difference between those 3?


----------



## sexhero

montanari said:


> my burson conductor should provide around 1.5W to my lcd2 and i m more than satisfy..


 
 How do you like synergy between your Conductor and LCD-2? It would be great if you have other amps to compare to!


----------



## montanari

Hi
I like very much the match between lcd2 and conductor cause this one is not warm and open a lot the headphone
His dac is detailed and with a huge slam pretty amazing bass
I add a usb/spdif converter and it improved even more..
I tried the audeze with the graham ulde with a mdac and with a concero hd that I still have, I thought they sound very good until someone left to my place a conductor to demo for a week. It never get out from my house!
I tried a leben cs300sx and it's very nice, but I still prefer my conductor cause has more energy and sounds more live


----------



## montanari

Try the soloist , not the sl


----------



## listen4joy

is lyr2 pair well with lcd2.2.?


----------



## goldendarko

It's actually probably the most popular pairing. Lyr and lcd-2


----------



## Chris_Himself

listen4joy said:


> is lyr2 pair well with lcd2.2.?


 
  
 Quite well, it was basically made for it and the HE-500/HE-6..


----------



## Yitaro

sexhero said:


> What DAC would you recommend with Soloist? I was actually comparing Soloist SL, Lyr and WA6. Could you tell anything about the difference between those 3?


 
 I had the WA6 and the Mjolner sold both cause I didn't the sound with my LCD-2 v.2.  You should definitely try the Musical Paradise MP-401 mk2.  This is a great sounding amp with the lcd-2.  Plenty of power with 2.88 watt  at 50ohm.


----------



## Poladise

What aspects of the the mjolnir's sound did you not like?


----------



## CanadianMaestro

I use LCD-2.2 in balanced, from a Bryston BHA-1 (sources are BDP-1 and BCD-1). SE also from Burson Soloist. DAC is a BDA-1.
 I think the Soloist is a best match for LCD-2.2, but not by a lot over the BHA-1, which is more transparent and does a better soundstage.
  
 Divine....


----------



## montanari

Soloist better than bryston??
I never thought..
Better For my monkey


----------



## Yitaro

poladise said:


> What aspects of the the mjolnir's sound did you not like?


I find the Mjolner to be to bright for my taste. I find myself not enjoying the music as much. Don't get me wrong, Mjolner has some impresive bass attack but overall, it just not music to my ear. The MP-401 mk2 amp produces 90% of the Mjolner's bass but has the wonderful tube mids and nice extended treble without being harsh. The MP-401 has the tungsol kt120 power tubes. I think this has a lot to do with mp-401 wonderful sound.


----------



## saxelrod92

Has anyone tried the auralic taurus mk II with the lcd 2.2 (pre-fazor)? I'm sure somewhere in these over 500 pages there is a post or two, but I have no clue which page, and can't spend the next 12 hours searching lol. Plus some new opinions would be nice since now in that price range we will soon have ragnarok, and in a few weeks the new violectric amps. So I'm curious what people think of the auralic in general, as there is not much talk about it on here, at least in comparisons that is. So far I'm leaning towards the new violectric v281, and for anyone that knows the youtuber/head-fi member HeadphoneAddictdotcom, he had the original taurus mk II and felt it was a bit bright with the lcd 2 rev 1, and preferred the v200. I have tried my lcds out of a burson soloist sl, and found it pushed the mids too far back, as well as dulled the treble/the overall sound, and was not powerful enough (had to turn the volume on high gain to about 2 and it felt lacking still). I feel that I have a similar sound preference to him, as well as to Tyll. Love detail, love bass, love mids, love thickness, but also a good solidity and edge. which is why for now I feel like the violectric amps seem like the right fit, plus all the great reviews. But I dont want to disregard something like the Auralic when it is used so often as most reviewer's reference/nearly flawless in most of its reviews. If anyone with a similar sound preference to myself, and as I mentioned above, has heard violectric amps and the taurus mk II, I'd love to hear what you thought of the differences and if you had to pick one to stick with for a whilst (they are pricey after all) which one would it be and why? And of course in context of being paired the lcd 2 pre-fazor (I got mine september 2013).

 Thanks in advance!


----------



## Lohb

There are v200 v181 clones on taobao.com from Accurate Audio A200 + A181. I might give one a whirl for fun as they are 1/4 Violectric price. Side-by-side ignoring branding, they look almost the same. Of course the best way is to  AB Violectic side-by-side.
  
 Internal layout same anyway from open top comparison. If it sounds as good, it opens some higher end DAC choices with the savings at 1/4 of Violectric prices.
 Balanced A181 below


----------



## DarrenLays

lohb said:


> There are v200 v181 clones on taobao.com from Accurate Audio A200 + A181. I might give one a whirl for fun as they are 1/4 Violectric price. Side-by-side ignoring branding, they look almost the same. Of course the best way is to  AB Violectic side-by-side.
> 
> Internal layout same anyway from open top comparison. If it sounds as good, it opens some higher end DAC choices with the savings at 1/4 of Violectric prices.
> Balanced A181 below


 
  
  
  
 Do they ship to the US? think it has the same components, and would it work with a standard US power cord? 
  
 I'm actually debating buying one if so.


----------



## Lohb

u need to buy through a shipping proxy such as taobaofocus.com + 10% for them and reasonable onward shipping.
 I got a set of cans that way. They would let you choose your voltage 115/230.


----------



## esmBOS

lohb said:


> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Lohb

esmbos said:


>


 

 Darn, really. You tested one then ?


----------



## Megalomaniak

Ive read many times that this clone is not as good / famous as the Matrix clone of the Lehmann. This one does not sound and power as the Violectric stuff at all, its just similar casing, different sounding.


----------



## DarrenLays

megalomaniak said:


> Ive read many times that this clone is not as good / famous as the Matrix clone of the Lehmann. This one does not sound and power as the Violectric stuff at all, its just similar casing, different sounding.


 
  
  
 What's different about them, are the components different?  The internals look sooooooooooooo similar.  Perhaps the same thing, but placebo saying it doesn't sound as good because of the price?


----------



## rrRazr

Has anyone tried the LCD2 with "The Island" from ALO?


----------



## CanadianMaestro

rrrazr said:


> Has anyone tried the LCD2 with "The Island" from ALO?


 

 No. But LCD-2 sounds great out of another portable, SR71B balanced mode.


----------



## roflcopter159

Looking for something relatively cheap to power the LCD 2 I just ordered. I have been looking at the O2/ODAC or a Schiit amp and eventually a DAC upgrade further down the road. If I don't get a combo then I'll be using an Aune T1 until I get more money to upgrade the DAC. I'm looking at spending $200-$300


----------



## CanadianMaestro

roflcopter159 said:


> Looking for something relatively cheap to power the LCD 2 I just ordered. I have been looking at the O2/ODAC or a Schiit amp and eventually a DAC upgrade further down the road. If I don't get a combo then I'll be using an Aune T1 until I get more money to upgrade the DAC. I'm looking at spending $200-$300


 
  
 O2/ODAC. +1
 JDS Labs C5 is also good.
 http://www.headphonebar.com/jds-labs-c5/
  
 off to work. tonight, maybe. On deck:


----------



## Lohb

roflcopter159 said:


> Looking for something relatively cheap to power the LCD 2 I just ordered. I have been looking at the O2/ODAC or a Schiit amp and eventually a DAC upgrade further down the road. If I don't get a combo then I'll be using an Aune T1 until I get more money to upgrade the DAC. I'm looking at spending $200-$300


 

 Sabre U2 DAC + Bantam Gold amp if you can get your cables on taps ?


----------



## roflcopter159

Thoughts on Aune T1 --> O2 --> LCD 2? I figure that way I can keep the tube sound while still having adequate power? Or would I just be better off waiting to get the combo and just use the T1 until then. Both will take a bit of time to get but I could definitely get the O2 standalone much sooner than the combo. In the meantime I'll be using the T1 alone which I have heard isn't quite powerful enough for the LCD 2.


----------



## CanadianMaestro

roflcopter159 said:


> Thoughts on Aune T1 --> O2 --> LCD 2? I figure that way I can keep the tube sound while still having adequate power? Or would I just be better off waiting to get the combo and just use the T1 until then. Both will take a bit of time to get but I could definitely get the O2 standalone much sooner than the combo. In the meantime I'll be using the T1 alone which I have heard isn't quite powerful enough for the LCD 2.


 
  
 RULE #1: Shortest signal path possible.
  
 Get the combo O2/ODAC.  All in one.
 http://www.headphonebar.com/jds-labs-o2-odac/
  
 over and out...appointments tonight.


----------



## roflcopter159

canadianmaestro said:


> RULE #1: Shortest signal path possible.
> 
> Get the combo O2/ODAC.  All in one.
> http://www.headphonebar.com/jds-labs-o2-odac/
> ...


 
 Ok, makes sense. Hopefully the T1 will be adequate power in the mean time.


----------



## Poladise

I think running from a tube dac might be the only way I could stand to listen to the O2 with lcd-2 for more than 30 minutes.


----------



## DarrenLays

poladise said:


> I think running from a tube dac might be the only way I could stand to listen to the O2 with lcd-2 for more than 30 minutes.


 
  
 What didn't you like about the o2? I feel it's thin sounding at times.. If that's a way to describe it.


----------



## Poladise

With LCD-2r2
  
 The good:
  
 Texture detail on bass instruments.
 Never muddy sounding.
 Transparent - Can clearly hear differences between sources.
  
 The bad:
  
 Mids are cold, uninvolving and often harsh.
 Sometimes sounds like there's a kinda glare or haze over the midrange. 
 Lacks bass weight and body to the sound.
 Listening fatigue kicks in pretty fast. 
  
 Impressions after owning one for over a year.


----------



## CanadianMaestro

poladise said:


> With LCD-2r2
> 
> The good:
> 
> ...


 
  
 With respect, based on gear listed on your profile, imo your amps are severely limiting your LCD2r2.
  
 I've had one for > 18 months. Quite the opposite of your "Bad" impressions. Great mids, no haze/glare whatsoever, tight, amazing bass, no fatigue whatsoever.
  
 But then, I use BHA-1 and Burson Soloist, tops for LCD2.2.  I don't crank it up past 12'oclock with music I listen to. Don't have to for me to get into the music.
  
 Everyone hears differently, but I hope you can get the most out of the sublime 2.2.
  
 Off to work. later tonight, maybe.


----------



## CanadianMaestro

poladise said:


> With LCD-2r2
> 
> The bad:
> 
> ...


 
 Three big strikes. Violates every rule of great SQ in any gear.
 SELL THEM. If I had cans with these attributes, they would be gone in a flash.
 Why are you then holding onto them? No amp is gonna fix these perceived flaws.
  
 cheers,


----------



## goldendarko

canadianmaestro said:


> Three big strikes. Violates every rule of great SQ in any gear.
> SELL THEM. If I had cans with these attributes, they would be gone in a flash.
> Why are you then holding onto them? No amp is gonna fix these perceived flaws.
> 
> cheers,




I have to disagree, the amp pairing is the most likely culprit. The LCD-2's are generally regarding as having some of the best mids and bass in the business and can be enjoyed without fatigue for long periods of time. If he had said they were treble light , not well defined or lacking soundstage then that would be him not enjoying the Audeze sound most likely. I would highly recommend trying a different pairing before selling them, perhaps the Burson Soloist.


----------



## nigeljames

goldendarko said:


> I have to disagree, the amp pairing is the most likely culprit. The LCD-2's are generally regarding as having some of the best mids and bass in the business and can be enjoyed without fatigue for long periods of time. If he had said they were treble light , not well defined or lacking soundstage then that would be him not enjoying the Audeze sound most likely. I would highly recommend trying a different pairing before selling them, perhaps the Burson Soloist.


 
  
 + 1
  
 Certainly not what most people hear when they listen to the LCD2.2's, including myself.


----------



## Poladise

Ah just to clear up any confusion, those are O2 (epiphany acoustics EHP-O2) impressions.
 I was answering DarrenLay's question directly above me.


darrenlays said:


> What didn't you like about the o2? I feel it's thin sounding at times.. If that's a way to describe it.


 
  
 I know how awesome my LCD-2s can sound, because I ran them through a V200 and RWA Corvina for a couple of weeks.
 I've just been looking for an amp that was kinda between those two with the vividness and impact of the V200 and the refined treble of the Corvina.
  
 In the meantime I've been using the Little dot i+, which is actually not bad, just a bit underpowered and small soundstage, but still really nice and musical.
 The cold mids, weak bass and listing fatigue are all with the O2.


----------



## goldendarko

Oh ok. Sounds like just a bad amp pairing then if it's bringing out those characteristics in the LCD-2. You might want to look at the soloist next, it is an excellent pairing with the lcd-2 and a relatively good value as well.


----------



## roflcopter159

Hmm... Well perhaps I won't grab an O2/ODAC then. Perhaps a Schiit Asgard 2 with my current Aune T1 (for a DAC) instead?


----------



## Megalomaniak

canadianmaestro said:


> With respect, based on gear listed on your profile, imo your amps are severely limiting your LCD2r2.
> 
> I've had one for > 18 months. Quite the opposite of your "Bad" impressions. Great mids, no haze/glare whatsoever, tight, amazing bass, no fatigue whatsoever.
> 
> ...


 
  
 +1
  
 8 months long with them, and I agree with you, totally disagree with Poladise.


----------



## DarrenLays

poladise said:


> With LCD-2r2
> 
> The good:
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 I can agree with a lot of that.  The listening fatigue not so much.
  
 I want a different amp, just dunno what to look into :/


----------



## Poladise

megalomaniak said:


> +1
> 
> 8 months long with them, and I agree with you, totally disagree with Poladise.


 
  
 Sounds like you only read CanadianMaetro's comment who thought I was talking about the LCDs. I was talking about the O2 amp.
 I'm never replying to a question (even directly above my post) without quoting again haha


----------



## Poladise

darrenlays said:


> I can agree with a lot of that.  The listening fatigue not so much.
> 
> I want a different amp, just dunno what to look into :/


 
  
 Yeh there's a few on the O2 thread that report the same with LCDs, but I think I must more sensitive to it than most.


----------



## CanadianMaestro

Apologies, Folks, in my orig response to Poladise, I stated that I thought that the amp may be the limiting factor messing up SQ here. And yes, I mistakenly misinterpreted Poladise's remarks to mean he was referring to LCD2.2, when it really was the O2 amp pairing that was the likely culprit.  Blush blush blush. So, no, don't sell your 2.2, Poladise, but let's help him find a suitable amp that won't put him in the poorhouse, tubed.
  
 My rec:
  
 Musical Paradise MP301 Mk3 from Canada. $<400CAD and v.g. SQ. Can also serve as an integrated to drive full spkrs. Sold mine a while back because had no more room for it. Check the limited reviews.
  
 Cheers


----------



## Poladise

Thanks Maestro. I've got the MP-401(& 301) on my list along with the Little Dot Mk Vi. My girlfriend has banned me from shipping any more amps into the UK though. Last two orders: broken Decware Taboo mk iii and a broken Music Angel MINI P1 6P1.
  
 If anyone knows a good tube amp (£500-£1500) to power the LCD-2s available in the UK, please point me to it.
  
 Cheers


----------



## Megalomaniak

poladise said:


> Sounds like you only read CanadianMaetro's comment who thought I was talking about the LCDs. I was talking about the O2 amp.
> I'm never replying to a question (even directly above my post) without quoting again haha


 
  
 Ohmygosh, my bad hahaha.
  
 Well, I just read the "With the LCD-2r2" and I thought it was your experience with them haha.
  
 For me, LCD headphones should be paired with warmer than neutral amplifiers. I run them with the V281 and its a superb combination. They sound smoother and cleaner than with the Matrix M-Stage I was using before too.


----------



## TontonJoK

My best advice would be to get an Alo pan am before they stop selling it, and add a passport battery

I've tried different amps from schiit, little dot and lake people and the sound was good but the difference was not obvious when switching

When I switch between those amps I have to wait for my brain to adjust to the sound and then question myself about the sonic changes, when I do that with the pan am I know right the way that the improvement is there !

I was about to sell my audeze thinking my hifiman he 400 was closed sounding comparing, but since I got that pan am I just love my lcd 2.2 and would never sell it


----------



## TontonJoK

I agree with Megalomaniak the lcd 2 must be paired to a warmer than neutral amp such as violectric v200 for SS 
or Woo wa 7, pan am, schiit lyr 2 ??? (only tried lyr 1 but had electric noise issues) for tubes


----------



## CanadianMaestro

I've always loved LCD2.2 with Burson Soloist. Analog sound (if that equates to tubey, then so be it). Not harsh. You need a v.g. source. No computer files; I find that introduces too much "grain". Then use a good dac. But Soloist is superb, I found. Should be available to audition in UK. Another amp is the Decware line. Dont remember which specific model, but it can easily drive the Beyer T1 600 ohms. http://www.decware.com/newsite/homepage.html
  
 Too bad Graham Slee doesn't make tubes. Maybe audition some of his S-S as well?
  
 I wouldn't rule out S-S amps -- some like the Soloist can give really analog-like sound with better slam and deeper, more accurate bass of solid-state.


----------



## CanadianMaestro

Poladise:
  
 Soloist + LCD2/3:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/633831/subjective-review-of-the-violectric-v200-and-the-burson-soloist-for-use-with-audeze-lcd-2
 http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/viewpoint/0113/aa_chapter_158.htm
 http://www.cnet.com/news/the-burson-soloist-will-make-your-headphones-sound-better-than-ever/
 http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/burson-audio-soloist-headphone-amplifier-page-2
  
 Power issues:
 https://audeze.zendesk.com/entries/20866002-Selecting-an-amp-
  
 cheers


----------



## dfarina

Computer files introduce too much grain?What source do you use?


----------



## CanadianMaestro

USB audio is never as good as BNC coaxial digital.
 I don't do computer audio anymore....why compromise?
  
 I use Bryston BDP-1 BNC out for my digital files (via BDA-1 DAC), to headphone amp or to main speakers. It is NOT a streamer.
  
 https://sites.google.com/site/audiomeisterssystem/audio-components/digital-player
  
 Happy Listening!


----------



## Argo Duck

Gee I'm not sure about the warmer than neutral recommendation, TME of course. I prefer Jan Meier's Classic to the Violectric V100 for example, the V100 being distinctly the warmer of the two. I get best results from tuning my tube amps neutral. Stock, I found the Lyr (original version) too warm and syrupy.

I would say avoid *dry* upstream gear. Audez'es excel at reproducing fine timbral and harmonic detail, which a dry DAC or amp takes away. Makes an Audez'e sound 'quicker' and 'cleaner' but you might as well go for a dynamic like the Beyer T1 instead.

Concerning Decware, the CSP2+ (2nd hand) or CSP3 (current model) for higher impedance phones; Taboo mk II (2nd hand) or Taboo mk III (current) for orthos. Taboo mk II is definitely the top amp of those in my stable followed by the Meier Classic.


----------



## aaronelmore

I had the opportunity last night to try out a set of LCD-s's on two of the lower end Schiit products.  The Asgard 2 and the Lyr2.  The Asgard sounded great but paired with these headphones was just lacking.  I had to have the volume all the way up to get them to really sing.  One thing that did surprise me however was that even though I had the asgard at full volume there was no noticeable distortion.  Now over to the Lyr2 yes a tube amp and the sound signature was much warmer but power wise holy crap!!!! I couldn't get even close to turning up fully without my skull and poor brain saying STOP.  Now that I am considering getting a pair of LCD-2's I know that i will need to upgrade from my asgard to at least the Lyr2.  Within that price range i see many other options to consider but with my really liking the schiit brand and company I think I have found my next amp.


----------



## Argo Duck

^ strange you had to turn the Asgaard up full power  Does your DAC produce standard voltage out (2Vrms)? Could there be a problem there.

The original Asgaard was 1W 50 ohms and the Lyr 4W. In terms of sound pressure level that gives the Lyr only a 6dB advantage. Certainly noticeable but not huge.

+1 - Schiit is an excellent company.


----------



## aaronelmore

AiDee - Looking at the spec of the DAC the meridian explorer it states that it is a fixed 2v RMS.  You are right the Asgard2 at 50 Ohm is 1W so maybe I need to look into this a little further maybe i had the volume down on the dac or in clementine (thats the flac player i use on my mac).  To bad i don't have the LCD-2's readily available to dig into it  My plan though was to still get the LCD's and then later down the road upgrade ams's so we will see hopefully in the near future. Thanks for catching that though now i have some playing and investigation to do.


----------



## saxelrod92

aaronelmore said:


> AiDee - Looking at the spec of the DAC the meridian explorer it states that it is a fixed 2v RMS.  You are right the Asgard2 at 50 Ohm is 1W so maybe I need to look into this a little further maybe i had the volume down on the dac or in clementine (thats the flac player i use on my mac).  To bad i don't have the LCD-2's readily available to dig into it  My plan though was to still get the LCD's and then later down the road upgrade ams's so we will see hopefully in the near future. Thanks for catching that though now i have some playing and investigation to do.


 

 Yea good idea to look into it a bit, because when I still used the Burson soloist sl which only puts out 650 mW into 50-60 ohms, I could still get full volume by around 1-3 o'clock. but it was still obvious that it wasn't powerful enough because you could hear that it just was not driving them properly with ease. so Something that has twice the output power at that resistance should at the very least sound very loud way before you max it out.


----------



## Lohb

canadianmaestro said:


> USB audio is never as good as BNC coaxial digital.
> I don't do computer audio anymore....why compromise?
> 
> I use Bryston BDP-1 BNC out for my digital files (via BDA-1 DAC), to headphone amp or to main speakers. It is NOT a streamer.
> ...


 

 So in your ranking would it be :-
  
 BNC Coax
 USB
 Toslink optical ?


----------



## CanadianMaestro

lohb said:


> So in your ranking would it be :-
> 
> BNC Coax
> USB
> Toslink optical ?


 

 For digital transmission with no signal reflection (i.e. best SQ) and absolute preservation over modest distances, 1. BNC coax, 2. USB, 3. Tos
  
 James Tanner of Bryston recommended BNC to me two years ago, and he was right on. Use 75-ohm BNC connectors.
  
 cheers, off to slumber. tiring day at the lab.


----------



## peterinvan

Not sure if anyone has commented on the LCD-2F with the Centrance M8? I am using the headphone output of my Meridian Explorer at about 70% volume ( 16/44 FLAC files, Windows 7 & Foobar2000). It's very nice, no major complaints. I use EasyQ to boost the bass and highs on some tracks that sound a bit dark, but mostly run flat without EQ.

I have purchased a good balanced cable.

I am looking for a bit more clarity, separation, bass, etc.
Thanks
Peter


----------



## thomascrown

I sometimes use the lcd 2f with my m8, and I'm pretty happy with the result: coming from the hd650, I tried at the beginning to get closer to the sennheiser sound, adding a little more bass using the back switch, then with the time, I started preferring the "flat" setting and let the headphones sing their music. Volume wise at mid gain, I am ok at around 12 o'clock


----------



## Aikanaro

alo's pan am!


----------



## AN94Master

Is it sensible to buy the LCD 2 for my fiio x5 with a suitable amp?? If so, what amp should I buy?


----------



## jodgey4

If it's the LCD-2 with Fazor, it's pretty easy to drive, it only would need about a 0.5 W of clean power. Depending on your budget, I'm sure there are some good options.


----------



## goldendarko

an94master said:


> Is it sensible to buy the LCD 2 for my fiio x5 with a suitable amp?? If so, what amp should I buy?




Yes in use my x5 with my lcd-3 and love it actually. Definately needs an amp though as it's pretty weak without one. Obvious recommendation is the E12 which is only around 100 too


----------



## aaronelmore

AiDee / saxelrod92,
     So after receiving my set of LCD-2 rev 2 and playing around with different volume configurations i have found that the Shiit Asgard2 is more than enough to power these suckers.  I be a very happy listener now


----------



## AN94Master

goldendarko said:


> Yes in use my x5 with my lcd-3 and love it actually. Definately needs an amp though as it's pretty weak without one. Obvious recommendation is the E12 which is only around 100 too



LCD has a 70 ohm impedance,about 20 more than the lcd 3. I'm on a tight budget so how much difference would I feel if I used, say, the schitt Valhalla 2 instead of the e12?I can't go beyond $400 for an amp. And doesn't the x5 have a powerful internal amp?


----------



## saxelrod92

an94master said:


> LCD has a 70 ohm impedance,about 20 more than the lcd 3. I'm on a tight budget so how much difference would I feel if I used, say, the schitt Valhalla 2 instead of the e12?I can't go beyond $400 for an amp. And doesn't the x5 have a powerful internal amp?


 

 not to go too deep into the whole science around the new impedance and sensitivity ratings for the LCD line, but basically the new LCD 3 is 110 ohm now I believe, close to there and the LCD 2 is indeed 70 ohm now. But they also have slightly higher sensitivity ratings, so despite a slightly higher impedance, they dont need as much power as they used to. If your budget is 400 for an amp then I would get something from schiit. When I was looking at amps for my LCD 2 before I bought it, I started small (a year later went big), and I was going to buy a schiit asgard 2. During my research I could not find another amp at that price with the same specs and high praise. and if you push your budget by 50 more dollars then you can get a lyr 2. I ended up getting the bifrost uber as my dac, and just went all out for my amp very recently. But a valhalla 2 is not a good for the LCD 2 because it has a high output impedance and low output power (unless someone here who uses this combo actually likes it for some reason).


----------



## goldendarko

an94master said:


> LCD has a 70 ohm impedance,about 20 more than the lcd 3. I'm on a tight budget so how much difference would I feel if I used, say, the schitt Valhalla 2 instead of the e12?I can't go beyond $400 for an amp. And doesn't the x5 have a powerful internal amp?



 


The amp on the X5 is pretty powerful by most standards (Compared to an iPhone for example) but it still only does 255 mW@32Ω and Audeze recommends at least 1-4 watts for the LCD-2. In my testing of the X5 alone without added amplification, well I would just say it's pointless even owning an LCD-2 if your not going to feed them with sufficient power as they sounded dull, lacking dynamics and clarity as well as body. Your really not getting what you paid $1000 for headphones for, a $100 E12 brings the juice that is needed to make the LCD-2 special. 

As far as the Valhalla 2, it's not really meant for planars but would probably work ok, but the Schiit Lyr is really meant for those. In fact, Schiit's website even says about the V2, "You MAY even like it with high-efficiency planars like LCD-X, LCD-XC, Oppo PM-1 and HE-400" all of which are more efficient headphones than the LCD-2, so I don't think it would be a great match. 

 The Schiit Lyr 2 sells for $450 new, but the original can often be had on the for sale forums for around $300, if fact I think someone had one listed for $275 with extra tubes thrown in right now. The Lyr is also a noted pairing for the LCD-2, and IMO probably the best you can do for under $500. If your looking for something more portable or cheaper the FIIO E12 is a great pairing, and what I am currently using with my X5 as my portable rig. Hope this helps.


----------



## Sound Eq

for portable use just get the hugo end of story, i tried today the alo pan am boy the hugo is miles better from pan am which had the siemens tubes


----------



## goldendarko

sound eq said:


> for portable use just get the hugo end of story, i tried today the alo pan am boy the hugo is miles better from pan am which had the siemens tubes



 


Think he said his budget was $400, the Hugo is like $2500.


----------



## AN94Master

Just to be clear, exactly how much difference would it make if I use a $500-$1000 amp as compared to the E12 for the LCD 2 and x5 combo?


----------



## goldendarko

I think the E12 performs exceptionally well for it's price, and is an excellent pairing with the X5. Obviously if you stepped up to something like the Burson Soloist ($1000) amp you are going to get more power, more clarity, better instrument seperation, better bass control, etc. but whether or not it is worth 10 times the price I would say no. That's the way high end audio works though, you begin to pay a lot more for a little better and at a certain point you have to decide what good enough is. I think the Soloist is definitely worth the price for a headphone as good as the LCD-2 but the E12 is quite an overachiever at it's price range too. Maybe you can audition some amps in your price range before deciding? Or you could always buy something and if you don't think it's worth it the resell market here on Head-Fi is quite robust and makes it easy to resell things you don't like and still recoup most of your money, especially if your willing to buy used too.


----------



## Sound Eq

just spare up for hugo u will never regret it, instead of buying things and selling for loss, in the end you will always ask how the hugo sounds and might pull the trigger after you lost on other amps/dacs
  
 yesterday u i just realised how much i made a good decision when i heard the pan am, boy its a night and day difference the hugo is so so so so many light years ahead of pan am


----------



## goldendarko

sound eq said:


> just spare up for hugo u will never regret it, instead of buying things and selling for loss, in the end you will always ask how the hugo sounds and might pull the trigger after you lost on other amps/dacs
> 
> yesterday u i just realised how much i made a good decision when i heard the pan am, boy its a night and day difference the hugo is so so so so many light years ahead of pan am


 

 Are you a Chord salesman or something? I think the guy has said twice now his price range is $500-1000 max? Hugo goes for almost $2500. Might as well just say buy a Woo Audio 234 monoblock and be done with it too, but real people set real budgets and stay within them for a reason.


----------



## Sound Eq

goldendarko said:


> Are you a Chord salesman or something? I think the guy has said twice now his price range is $500-1000 max? Hugo goes for almost $2500. Might as well just say buy a Woo Audio 234 monoblock and be done with it too, but real people set real budgets and stay within them for a reason.


 
 not at all i live in a country where no one besides me has the hugo  
  
 but i swear on my life that is exactly how i felt comparing the 2 
  
 i am just telling him my own dam journey that costed was a roller coaster of buying gear then selling for loss until i found what i truly liked.


----------



## goldendarko

Well I've yet to hear the Hugo either but I have heard it is fantastic as well. But if he is considering the E12 I think something similar to it would be a better recommendation as far as jumping up in terms of quality, like maybe the Centrance M8 for example. The Hugo is like the top of the line as far as portable amps go, I think it's silly to get the absolute best right away anyways because you won't even really appreciate how good it is unless you've tried some other things first, just my opinion.


----------



## AN94Master

Well, for my budget, the lyr 2 seems like a nice option because it gives an output power of 4 watts @50ohms while the e12 gives just 850mW @32.Audeze recommends 1-4 watts for the LCD 2.


----------



## goldendarko

an94master said:


> Well, for my budget, the lyr 2 seems like a nice option because it gives an output power of 4 watts @50ohms while the e12 gives just 850mW @32.Audeze recommends 1-4 watts for the LCD 2.



 


I think that's probably a good idea, the E12 drives them very well, but still not quite as well as real desktop rig will, especially one with some serious power like the Lyr. Also, if you are looking to save some money, and don't mind buying used, I would highly recommend buying the original Lyr from the forums here as there is always one going for a good price on there. The difference's between the two are not that significant from what I've read and you can pick up a used one almost half the price of the Lyr 2 which costs $450. Here is one going for $265 for example, hope you enjoy the Lyr!

http://www.head-fi.org/t/728889/lyr-amp-excellent-condition-with-a-set-of-new-tubes-price-dropped


----------



## jodgey4

Yeah, but the new Fazor increases efficiency by 3 db/mW... and to get 3 db more sound, you need 2x the Wattage... so those requirements should probably be closer to 0.5W-2W instead for Fazor models, if that's what you have. The E12 probably would be quite hard to beat until much higher price points.


----------



## AN94Master

Thanks guys,this has been quite helpful and I've decided upon a new lyr 2.I wanna get my lcd 2's full worth; I listen mostly to 48,96 and 192/24 flac.


----------



## goldendarko

Glad to hear, you certainly will the lyr is a great match for the lcd2


----------



## Megalomaniak

Better amp for the Audeze means airier sound due to the better separation and soundstage, better bass tonality and body, plus all the extension (depending on the amp you lose it) and mid detail/transparency.


----------



## Justin_Time

an94master said:


> Thanks guys,this has been quite helpful and I've decided upon a new lyr 2.I wanna get my lcd 2's full worth; I listen mostly to 48,96 and 192/24 flac.


 
 If you haven't bought the amp yet, you could check out my post on High End Forum on my experience  matching headphones , cables and amps.  You may find some helpful info on the LCD2/3 and other headphones as well.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/729976/matching-headphones-cables-amplifiers-harder-than-it-should-be-very-long-post


----------



## aaronelmore

Ok so for sh1t'5 and giggles I decided to pick up the xDuoo TA-01.  I would have to say with the stock tube this thing is not that bad.  I can easily listen at half volume and it is loud enough with the LCD2'.  I think once i put a gold lion in it the sound should warm up even more.  Question i have for the group the only spec it shows for output is 2100Mw @32 Ohms what do you think it is pushing at 50 Ohms?  I know this is not a class a amp in any way but i am really surprised by the output and lack of that tube hum you get from other low end amp/dac combo's like this.


----------



## Yitaro

For anyone thinking of a headphone amp for the LCD-2 should seriously consider the Musical Paradise MP-401 mk2.  From my experience with my previous amps, nothing comes close to the sound of this amp.  Just the headphone section alone is worth the asking price.  But as a bonus, you get a beautiful sounding 18 watts SET tube speaker amp.
 Just like everyone here, my headphone amp roller coaster ride took me from iBasso PB-2 to Woo Audio amps and Schiit Mjolner.  Took a chance with the MP-401 mk2 and ordered it.  I am glad that I did cause after 2 months of ownership, the sound amazes me every time I listen to it.  This amp is the end game for me as an amp for the LCD-2.


----------



## TontonJoK

sounds like me and my pan am,


----------



## Gerzom

Hi, does anybody here have any experience with the Bakoon HPA-01 combined with the LCD-2.2? I would love to get your feedback here.
 I'm thinking of auditioning this amp as possible upgrade for my Mjolnir.
 I've read some good reviews, specially for the HPA-01 pared with the LCD 2


----------



## TontonJoK

1 watt (50 Ω, 1 kHz) should be enough to drive the lcd2's
The amp looks nice and solid


----------



## Justin_Time

gerzom said:


> Hi, does anybody here have any experience with the Bakoon HPA-01 combined with the LCD-2.2? I would love to get your feedback here.
> I'm thinking of auditioning this amp as possible upgrade for my Mjolnir.
> I've read some good reviews, specially for the HPA-01 pared with the LCD 2


 
 I have used the bigger brother (Bakoon HPA-21) with the LCD2/3 and even the HE-6.  No problems in terms of power! 
  
 The Bakoon  HPA-21 has a warm mid-range (dissimilar though from tube warmth) that can do wonder with the PS1000, HD800 and HE-6. It works well with the LCD2/3 but does not necesarily make the best match.  While the incredible resolution and vivid details of the Bakoon can compensate for the slightly veiled sound of the LCD2.2, you may be disappointed coming from the Mjolnir, which adds the much needed sparkles to the LCD sound. The bass impact, while quite good, cam use a bit more slam (bigger power supply?). 
  
Also remember that the Bakoon does not have the balanced output of the Mjolnir so you have to use the 1/4 plug of you LCD cable.
  
 Assuming that the 01 has the family sound of the 21, I strongly recommend that you audition it first, several times if needed, before purchasing. The Bakoon HPA-21 is a very good amp.  It works well with the LCDs but is not, for my taste, the best match for them.


----------



## Poladise

Well my quest for a tube amp lead nowhere. Seems I cant get them into the UK without faults, so I'm trying the Mjolnir next week. Hopefully it will manhandle my LCD2s enough to make me stop looking for tube amps.


----------



## Justin_Time

poladise said:


> Well my quest for a tube amp lead nowhere. Seems I cant get them into the UK without faults, so I'm trying the Mjolnir next week. Hopefully it will manhandle my LCD2s enough to make me stop looking for tube amps.


 
 I found the Vioelectric V200 and the Schiit Mjolnir too be two of the best "affordable" amps for the LCD2/LCD3
  
 (See http://www.head-fi.org/t/729976/matching-headphones-cables-amplifiers-harder-than-it-should-be-very-long-post)
  
 If you are in the UK, perhaps you should check out the EAR HP-4:  outstanding tube amp with great bass impact.  The sound will be better but a little "darker" than with the Schiit Mjolnir.


----------



## Poladise

Thanks Justin I have already read through your article. Contributed to Mjolnir being high on my list. Very enjoyable and useful read. Yeah I'm pretty sure I'd love the HP4 lol, it's £4000 in the UK though. I've looking around the £700-£1500 area. I'm hoping the Mjolnir paired with a warm dac will work for me.


----------



## TontonJoK

People on headfi love the combo I bet you will too


----------



## commtrd

Been listening to the M/G stack with all three LCD (2.2, 3[c], and X) and the amp and dac have been superlative with all three. Hard to beat really for the money IMHO. Also read that the M with say the M51 dac was really nice too. Someday I would like to audition the Auralic Taurus MkII with the Vega. But for now absolutely no problems with the M/G stack I have. Highly recommended...


----------



## Gerzom

I just bought a Bakoon HPA-01 as a replacement for my Mjolnir 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 What struck me most with the Bakoon (and made me pull the trigger) was the clarity of the music/sound and all the different layers that I could hear. I lacks a tiny little bit in the lower regions (compared to Mjolnir), but as I'm not a real bass-head, this doesn't bother me. Especially the combination with my vinyl rig is magical. All in all I think this is a real step upwards from the Mjolnir. But looking at the price difference between the 2 amps, I still feel the Mjolnir plays way above it's league (very well done Schiit!!!!)
  
 Crappy blackberry picture:


----------



## Justin_Time

gerzom said:


> I just bought a Bakoon HPA-01 as a replacement for my Mjolnir
> 
> What struck me most with the Bakoon (and made me pull the trigger) was the clarity of the music/sound and all the different layers that I could hear. I lacks a tiny little bit in the lower regions (compared to Mjolnir), but as I'm not a real bass-head, this doesn't bother me. Especially the combination with my vinyl rig is magical. All in all I think this is a real step upwards from the Mjolnir. But looking at the price difference between the 2 amps, I still feel the Mjolnir plays way above it's league (very well done Schiit!!!!)
> 
> Crappy blackberry picture:




You are spot on about the relative performance of the two amps with the LCD2.

The Bakoon does something very unusual for a SS. Amp combining warmth in the mid- range with vivid and smooth details. And yes, I fully agree with you again on the sound with vinyl. Simply glorious. Regarding the Bakoon bass, I once again agree; it is a little light--I think this amp needs, no, deserves a bigger power supply, may be even a separate unit. I found that I prefer using the SME to the Avid to get a decent bass with the Bakoon/LCD combo thus giving up the stunning, airy details of the Avid.

The only area my opinion differs from yours is on the value. The Mjolnir's performance with the LCD is fantastic: that is some good Schiit! But it could be fatiguing sometimes--too much of a good thing--and the pairing with other cans besides the LCD are not always as successful. So I think the Mjolnir represents great value with the LCD but only good value overall.

Compared to the sound, features, construction cost and quality of the GS-X Mk2 at exactly the same price, I think the Bakoon is overpriced. That could be just the result of import taxes but from a consumer's view point I would have felt better if the Bakoon is priced around $2,000-$2,500 rather than $3,000. But even at $3,000, I like the unique sound of the Bakoon enough that I am keeping the unit. And that may be the only valid measuring stick.

Enjoy your new toy with the LCD!


----------



## Gerzom

justin_time said:


> You are spot on about the relative performance of the two amps with the LCD2.
> 
> The Bakoon does something very unusual for a SS. Amp combining warmth in the mid- range with vivid and smooth details. And yes, I fully agree with you again on the sound with vinyl. Simply glorious. Regarding the Bakoon bass, I once again agree; it is a little light--I think this amp needs, no, deserves a bigger power supply, may be even a separate unit. I found that I prefer using the SME to the Avid to get a decent bass with the Bakoon/LCD combo thus giving up the stunning, airy details of the Avid.
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks Justin!
  
 Good to see you have the same experience with Bakoon. But based on your final comments regarding price I think you are referring to the HPA-21, where I'm talking about the HPA-01 (approx. 1800 euro in Netherlands) 
 I can't really comment on the Mjolnir with other headphones as I only used them with my LCD's (my Hifi-man HE-400's don't have balanced cables)


----------



## Justin_Time

gerzom said:


> Thanks Justin!
> 
> Good to see you have the same experience with Bakoon. But based on your final comments regarding price I think you are referring to the HPA-21, where I'm talking about the HPA-01 (approx. 1800 euro in Netherlands)
> I can't really comment on the Mjolnir with other headphones as I only used them with my LCD's (my Hifi-man HE-400's don't have balanced cables)



 


Wow! The import taxes must be much higher where you are than in the US!

Just for your info, the pairing LCD2/Mjolnir is quite special. The Mjolnir adds the much needed sparkle to the rather "dark" sound of the LCD, especially the original LCD2.

There are very few such synergistic pairings for "affordable" amps. The Grado PS1000/MAD Ear+ HD is another one of them. BTW, the V200 is also a very good match for the LCD2, less exciting than the LCD2/Mjolnir pairing but also more balanced and less fatiguing in the long run


----------



## Lohb

The geek's Bakoon.... at sub-$600 I'm guessing.
  
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/chip-amps/239321-joe-rasmussen-trans-amp-40-watt-transconductance-current-amplifier.html


----------



## NzAudezey

I would highly recommend the M/g schiit stack for the LCD 2/3 I've been using now for just over a year and have never regretting making the plunge.

The synergy between the 3 is amazing and creates a highly immersive listening experience ( best I've ever heard)


----------



## Zashoomin

nzaudezey said:


> I would highly recommend the M/g schiit stack for the LCD 2/3 I've been using now for just over a year and have never regretting making the plunge.
> 
> The synergy between the 3 is amazing and creates a highly immersive listening experience ( best I've ever heard)


 
 I can agree with it for the 2 (not the best I have ever heard, but it does sound good), but i think the 3 can get a bit better.  I think that if you are going to spend $2k on a headphone that it deserves a bit more than a $1.5k stack.


----------



## DarrenLays

Does anyone here have the schiit lyr with LCD-2 fazor?
  
 How is it?


----------



## guglia72

I'm trying to catch up with the 511 pages of this thread, so the question might have already been asked (and answered) but... what do you think of WooAudio WA7 + LCD-2?
  
 Thanks


----------



## NzAudezey

i couldn't agree with you more, I am just staging my upgrade path, am now saving for the Auralic stack =)


----------



## kahldog

I guess I don't understand the interest in the expensive dedicated headphone amp route. I have gone that path and gotten reasonable results which sounded pretty good and quite enjoyable. But this path has come nowhere near the sound from a full power amp equipped with a proper voltage divider network. My first experience was with a 10 watt/ch Sophia Electric and my LCD's. I picked up the Sophia for $350.00 and they can be had for less. The voltage divider cost me about $300.00 to build. You can buy a prebuilt Robinette Box for about $75.00 $100.00. This blew me right out of my chair. I could not believe what I was hearing. I have had a $75,000.00 full stereo setup that could not touch this setup.
 Audeze states that the LCD 2 can withstand 15watts of instantaneous power for milliseconds but they recommend between 3-5 watts of power. Remember that amp manufacturers quote their rated power output into certain loads. For example 10 watts into 8 ohms will only give you approximately 1.5 watts into 53 ohms but does that make those LCD's sing. I find the LCD's very warm and this is accented more by using tubes. I tried the Musical Fidelity M1HPA which is supposed to put out 1.1 watts into 32ohms. Still a bit underpowered for the LCD's.
 People worry about the noise floor coming off the speaker taps and not having enough volume control to work with. The voltage divider network solves both these problems. The Sophia was dead quiet and I could max the LCD's out at about 10 o'clock on the volume. A good class A biased solid state would sound good as well.


----------



## kahldog

kahldog said:


> I guess I don't understand the interest in the expensive dedicated headphone amp route. I have gone that path and gotten reasonable results which sounded pretty good and quite enjoyable. But this path has come nowhere near the sound from a full power amp equipped with a proper voltage divider network. My first experience was with a 10 watt/ch Sophia Electric and my LCD's. I picked up the Sophia for $350.00 and they can be had for less. The voltage divider cost me about $300.00 to build. You can buy a prebuilt Robinette Box for about $75.00 $100.00. This blew me right out of my chair. I could not believe what I was hearing. I have had a $75,000.00 full stereo setup that could not touch this setup.
> Audeze states that the LCD 2 can withstand 15watts of instantaneous power for milliseconds but they recommend between 3-5 watts of power. Remember that amp manufacturers quote their rated power output into certain loads. For example 10 watts into 8 ohms will only give you approximately 1.5 watts into 53 ohms but does that make those LCD's sing. I find the LCD's very warm and this is accented more by using tubes. I tried the Musical Fidelity M1HPA which is supposed to put out 1.1 watts into 32ohms. Still a bit underpowered for the LCD's.
> People worry about the noise floor coming off the speaker taps and not having enough volume control to work with. The voltage divider network solves both these problems. The Sophia was dead quiet and I could max the LCD's out at about 10 o'clock on the volume. A good class A biased solid state would sound good as well.


 

 The divider network cost me $30.00 not $300.00. Sorry.


----------



## Poladise

kahldog said:


> I guess I don't understand the interest in the expensive dedicated headphone amp route. I have gone that path and gotten reasonable results which sounded pretty good and quite enjoyable. But this path has come nowhere near the sound from a full power amp equipped with a proper voltage divider network. *My first experience was with a 10 watt/ch Sophia Electric* and my LCD's. I picked up the Sophia for $350.00 and they can be had for less. The voltage divider cost me about $300.00 to build. You can buy a prebuilt Robinette Box for about $75.00 $100.00. This blew me right out of my chair. I could not believe what I was hearing. I have had a $75,000.00 full stereo setup that could not touch this setup.
> Audeze states that the LCD 2 can withstand 15watts of instantaneous power for milliseconds but they recommend between 3-5 watts of power. Remember that amp manufacturers quote their rated power output into certain loads. For example 10 watts into 8 ohms will only give you approximately 1.5 watts into 53 ohms but does that make those LCD's sing. I find the LCD's very warm and this is accented more by using tubes. I tried the Musical Fidelity M1HPA which is supposed to put out 1.1 watts into 32ohms. Still a bit underpowered for the LCD's.
> People worry about the noise floor coming off the speaker taps and not having enough volume control to work with. The voltage divider network solves both these problems. The Sophia was dead quiet and I could max the LCD's out at about 10 o'clock on the volume. A good class A biased solid state would sound good as well.


 
  
 Have you moved onto another setup now? I tried that Music Angel sophia copy that was talked about... lasted 3 days before left channel burnt out and sounded like crap before that anyway, harsh mids and no lowend grunt at all. I'd love to try a proper Sophia Electric, but I'm looking for something similar in the UK instead. This one from Icon Audio seems similar http://www.iconaudio.com/portfolio-item/stereo-20-pp/ what do you reckon?


----------



## kahldog

I regret selling my Sophia Electric baby so much. This is a sick hobby, always willing to try something new hoping it will be better. I am using a Cayin A88T amp with my LCD 2 right now and love it but there is something I miss about that Baby. It was just so tonally correct, musical and had bass you wouldn't believe. I am tempted again as there is one listed on Audio Asylum Trade right now for $400.00. The Icon looks very nice and the EL84 has a sound close to the 6P1T but I am not familiar with the EC83 drivers. The Sophia had the option of the 2C51, 396A or 5670 as drivers. I liked the tubes supplied by Sophia the best. The Icon is modelled after the Leak 20 that still gets rave reviews. I wouldn't count on using the headphone output on the PP20 though. They are made for easy to drive IEM's and such and will not drive the LCD properly. It needs the power and to get that you need to use the speaker taps. Good luck.


----------



## Poladise

Hope I find something soon or I'm selling the LCD2s. I havent had much luck:
  
 V200 - too muddy
 Little Dot i+ - too small soundstage
 Soloist - too dead
 Decware Taboo Mkiii - too broken
 Little Dot mkiii - too weak
 Mjolnir - too thin and bass light
  
 Considering people call the LCD2 an amp slut, it seems very hard find a suitable one.
 If I could combine the V200s vivid colour + the Soloists bass Solidity + the LD MKiiis soundstage and warmth + the Mjolnirs sparkle, I think i'd be onto a winner lol


----------



## Argo Duck

Even my 2r1 clearly reveals amp differences (V100 much as you describe V200 btw) and most I tried not great. Hardly an amp slut then.

It's a shame the Taboo III didn't survive the crossing 

Have you tried/considered the Meier Classic? Although if the Mjo didn't work for you not sure the Classic would...


----------



## kahldog

You are listing some pretty big gun headphone amps. I don't know a lot about the spec's on them but most reviews praise them. Have you ever experienced what you are expecting, before with any other gear. I think that most tube amps biased in class A have more options available for creating different outputs via tube rolling and sometimes coupling cap changes. I like the paper in oil caps for their smoothness. For me the trick is to find one that can put out at least 5 watts into the Audeze's impedance load. I found the EL84 based amps really hit the mark but am also enjoying the 6550/KT88 tubes as well. It can be a bit expensive but great fidelity usually is. Think about giving a tube amp a try using the speaker tap outputs with a voltage divider network. I think you will find the overall cost in line with what you have listed in your post. Those are not cheap pieces of equipment.


----------



## rated1975

poladise said:


> Hope I find something soon or I'm selling the LCD2s. I havent had much luck:
> 
> V200 - too muddy
> Little Dot i+ - too small soundstage
> ...




Some EQ really helps the LCD's. Its the only reason i have kept mine. I use a vintage receiver.


----------



## Poladise

*AiDee*, the mjolnir was surprising, I did like it. It was smoother than I'd expected and the top end sounded
 very refined. After seeing it branded a dynamics monster, I was just expecting bass impact similar to the V200
 only a bit cleaner, but in a comparison it was actually a bit less than my o2 amp.

*Kahldog*, I've experienced part of what I'm after and that might be the problem. LCD2s with V200 or my Naim
 speaker amp had this full effortless tone. An extra presence and depth to sounds that seems to come from having
 lots of power to spare. I've been trying to find that with a bit more treble extension and better soundstage.
 V281 could be the ticket, but I'd prefer something from UK really.
  
*Rated1975*, what is your eq curve like?


----------



## oldson

i am sure it must have been said before? but anyone who overlooks the "project ember" wants their lumps feeling, imho.


----------



## oldson

rated1975 said:


> Some EQ really helps the LCD's. Its the only reason i have kept mine. I use a vintage receiver.


 
 i am sure that is true but why not try a correction filter to give a true "flat response"?


----------



## Zashoomin

Poladise,
  
 I have a couple more amps you could try.  Try a beta22, that is what I used to run my LCD2's on also try a head-amp GSX-MKII.  Beta's are pretty easy to get your  hands on and but the GSX can be a bit difficult.


----------



## kahldog

Based on what you have told me tubes will give you more air and soundstage. I always found SS a bit compressed but I am reluctant to say anything negative about them. It is all in your preference. I am just burning in a set of Svetlana winged C 6550C made in the St Petersburg plant. At first I was so sure  but that always happens when putting a new set of tubes in an amp. As they open up I am starting to experience more of what I had with the Sophia. It just grabs your soul and won't let go. The only thing I can compare it too is butterflies in your stomach but that is just a close example. I was listening to Steve Ray Vaughan's "Tin Pan Alley" and it is difficult to hear the cymbals in the opening part of the track. Wow they are coming through loud and clear. I'd say go for the tube PP-20. The EL84 is a super sounding tube. Good luck. Let me know how you make out as I am dying to hear. Don't give up on the Audeze as I don't think there is anything better out there.


----------



## Lohb

kahldog said:


> I guess I don't understand the interest in the expensive dedicated headphone amp route. I have gone that path and gotten reasonable results which sounded pretty good and quite enjoyable. But this path has come nowhere near the sound from a full power amp equipped with a proper voltage divider network. My first experience was with a 10 watt/ch Sophia Electric and my LCD's. I picked up the Sophia for $350.00 and they can be had for less. The voltage divider cost me about $300.00 to build. You can buy a prebuilt Robinette Box for about $75.00 $100.00. This blew me right out of my chair. I could not believe what I was hearing. I have had a $75,000.00 full stereo setup that could not touch this setup.
> Audeze states that the LCD 2 can withstand 15watts of instantaneous power for milliseconds but they recommend between 3-5 watts of power. Remember that amp manufacturers quote their rated power output into certain loads. For example 10 watts into 8 ohms will only give you approximately 1.5 watts into 53 ohms but does that make those LCD's sing. I find the LCD's very warm and this is accented more by using tubes. I tried the Musical Fidelity M1HPA which is supposed to put out 1.1 watts into 32ohms. Still a bit underpowered for the LCD's.
> People worry about the noise floor coming off the speaker taps and not having enough volume control to work with. The voltage divider network solves both these problems. The Sophia was dead quiet and I could max the LCD's out at about 10 o'clock on the volume. A good class A biased solid state would sound good as well.


 

 When you say "a proper voltage divider network" it is basically same idea as resistors over speaker taps to give the speaker amp better volume control dial-in ?
  
 I'm also with you there that boutique amp pricing does not necessarily reflect quality but profits spread over a much lower volume of units vs mainstream speaker amps which benefit from economies of scale which reduce the cost to the buyer....and flat impedance with planars opens up that whole area of new/vintage speaker amps. You could probably match the SQ of a Leben etc at 1/4 of the price with a speaker amp if you have enough knowledge of speaker amp company house sounds.


----------



## jodgey4

lohb said:


> When you say "a proper voltage divider network" it is basically same idea as resistors over speaker taps to give the speaker amp better volume control dial-in ?
> 
> I'm also with you there that boutique amp pricing does not necessarily reflect quality but profits spread over a much lower volume of units vs mainstream speaker amps which benefit from economies of scale which reduce the cost to the buyer....and flat impedance with planars opens up that whole area of new/vintage speaker amps. You could probably match the SQ of a Leben etc at 1/4 of the price with a speaker amp if you have enough knowledge of speaker amp company house sounds.


 
 A proper voltage divider network does a few things, it gives you better volume control, less noise, and adjusts the impedance seen by the amp so it can operate it better conditions. There's quite a few fantastic designs out there, for cheap you can build a really great box that will really open up your options to almost any speaker amp on the market.


----------



## kahldog

That is partially correct on the voltage divider network. Typically it is 2 resistors per channel with one in series and the other in parallel. If your amp has 8 ohm output then a 6 ohm in series and a 2ohm in parallel per channel would satisfy your amplifiers output impedance requirement of 8 ohm. It would also lower the noise floor as background noise, hum and hiss would be much more noticeable with headphones as opposed to speakers. This configuration would attenuate your speaker output by about -12db giving more useable volume. I have only done this with planar magnetic headphones that require more power. If you do a google search on the Robinette Box there is a lot of great stuff on there as well as a voltage divider calculator which calculates the resistors required for your amp output and headphone impedance.


----------



## AN94Master

Hey is the e12 with the x5 good enough for the LCD 2? My brother just gifted me the headphone but I don't have the budget for an expensive amp(just bought a TV).I have been using the momentum for an year, and I don't have any experience with amps.


----------



## goldendarko

Yes, it works surprisingly well actually. I use the X5 with the E12 for my LCD-3's and it rivals more expensive desktop amps IMO


----------



## DarrenLays

What do you think would be better guys?
  
 Schiit lyr + schiit bifrost, or NFB-28? or Yulong A28?
 The nfb-28 is fully balanced and around the same price as the bifrost+lyr used. (~750 for both)
  
 To an extent I want to think NFB-28 because it's balanced and the lyr+bifrost aren't, but I have seen many people say balanced isn't worth it, and some say it is.
  
 I found a great price for a Yulong A28 (or atleast I think it's a good price) Does anyone have any experience with it + the LCD-2?


----------



## kahldog

Schit Lyr by a long shot will be your best bet of the three you mentioned although they all have respectable power the Lyr is at the top and gives you the benefit of tube sound. The Yulong would be your second best bet.


----------



## kahldog

I used the E12 with my RWAK100 and my LCD 2. At first I thought it was OK then I preferred the sound directly out of the RWAK100. It wasn't until I used my LCD 2 with my Sophia Electric Baby I knew what they were capable of. In comparison the sound of most portables is anemic compared to a higher powered amp. If it is portable that you are after Cayin has a new model out called the C5. Might be worth a try and is in the price range of the E12.


----------



## DarrenLays

kahldog said:


> Schit Lyr by a long shot will be your best bet of the three you mentioned although they all have respectable power the Lyr is at the top and gives you the benefit of tube sound. The Yulong would be your second best bet.


 
  
  
 Wouldn't the fact that the Lyr isn't balanced and the other two options are make it a lesser option?


----------



## kahldog

Well I am not really sure on that as I know very little about balanced operation nor have I ever tried it. I must read up on this and give it a try one day. What are the benefits of balanced or single ended? I would really like to know as my addiction needs another avenue to pursue.


----------



## montanari

Usually with a balanced amp, and dac as well, the headphone sound louder and it open a bit in the treble region
Technically I don't know


----------



## kahldog

Balanced VS. Single ended - Poll
 See this thread for an explanation from a Benchmark engineer and others. If I am getting the drift correctly they are recommending single ended.


----------



## TontonJoK

Balanced or not balanced...

It's not a night and day difference, just subtle


----------



## jodgey4

I have heard that the NFB-28 will sound better on the balanced output than SE b/c every step before that is balanced so there's no conversion... or something like that. I'll try it one of these days. @kahldog, I didn't know you had tried all three (NFB-28, A28, Lyr)... what didn't you like about the NFB-28? Just curious


----------



## jhljhl

Try a jolida fx dac/preamp III with a decware taboo.  Transparent and dynamic.


----------



## cute

jhljhl said:


> Try a jolida fx dac/preamp III with a decware taboo.  Transparent and dynamic.


 
  
 Someone else who has discovered the awesomeness of the Jolida Tube Dac/Preamp!  I have been enjoying mine feeding into my Denon 2800, and using speaker taps to my LCD 3!


----------



## kahldog

Sorry_  didn't mean to imply I have tried all three of these. Actually I haven't tried any of them. The only SS dedicated headphone amps I have tried are the Musical Fidelity M1HPA and the Fiio E12. The M1HPA sounded decent and the E12 was OK. My recommendations were based purely on the specifications I read on each of the mentioned headphones. The Lyr puts out a whopping 6 watts into 32 ohms I believe which is almost 4 watts into the LCD 2 quoted impedance of 50 ohms. Simply multiply the manufacturer's rated output in watts by the load they have stated for that output. Then divide that by the impedance of the headphones you plan on using and the result will be the power output of your amp into that load. If the amp is rated at 10 watts output into an 8 ohm load and the headphone impedance that you will be using is 50 ohms then it would look like this; 10x8= 80/50= 1.6 watts. The LCD 2 has a sensitive rating of 91bd/mw. The result is for 1milliwatt of output power you will get 91 decibels of sound pressure. For every additional increase of 3 decibels you need to double the output power. So to go from 91 decibels to 94decibels you need to put out 2 milliwatts. This just keeps repeating itself for every 3 decibel increase. Given the dynamic nature of music you can have some peaks as high as 130 decibel. If you amp is maxed out at that level it starts to clip and results in distortion. The music will also sound thin or anemic and possibly a tad bright with little to no bass over the full dynamic range of the recording. The right amount of power output is critical to getting the most out of your headphones. Some of the IEMs are 16ohm impedance and 112 db/mw efficient making them very easy to drive and the lower watt power amps can work fine here. The planar magnetics definitely don't fall into this category. I hope that explains why I listed the Lyr as the best bet from the list mentioned but is far from the best for the LCD's. I prefer an all tube amp running off the speaker taps with a divider network to suit. No problem hearing all the glory the LCD can put out then._


----------



## jodgey4

Ahh, I see. For other readers, to reach 130 dB with the Fazor model, you need 4W. Most recommend 120 db as a good target, which would be 0.5W. For the older non-Fazor models, double the power requirements (as they are 3 db less efficient). Audeze states 1-4W is preferable, though for Fazor models I think those bounds should be cut in half for just pure volume requirements. I'll expand on this below. The NFB-28 will do about 6W, Lyr 4W, and A28 2W... all should be plenty sufficient, especially on Fazor models. If we're just going for power, the NFB-28 wins 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 (I love mine, though have never heard any other amps with cans I know well enough).
  
 I've never heard of someone needing 130 dB peaks, even under most people's 'loud' volumes, peaks will usually not come close even to the 120 dB goal. In fact, many use the 120 dB goal as a high achieving goal, to make sure that you can get enough _clean_ power into your cans. When you push an amp into the higher volumes, it can cause excessive distortion. Having power overhead is never a problem in my book, so people using 100W (or what have you) speaker amps in my book might be justified... I'd love to see some THD type measurements into headphone loads. Considering how many people love it (I never hear bad things)... it's something I feel I should try.


----------



## jodgey4

And while we're on the topic, has anyone tried the Bottlehead S.E.X. with the Fazor model? Some felt the S.E.X. probably needed more power for the 2's to sound it's best, but now that the Fazor has brought more efficiency... I wonder if the S.E.X. is now a better pairing... and if you say it's a great pairing, don't tell my wallet!


----------



## kahldog

Great info. I always enjoy expanding my knowledge on these topics. The only music I have ever heard of that may hit the 130db peaks would be some classical pieces but not many of them.
 What exactly is the Fazor model as I am not familiar with it? I tried something different last night on my nightly walk. I used my LCD 2's directly out of my RWAK100 and it actually sounded quite nice. Not as good as my home setup but still enjoyable. The volume control on the RWAK100 has a range of 0-75 and I was running it at about 60 which was plenty loud with great detail and nice musical tone but I could tell it lacked the air, sound stage and bass of my home setup which is the Cayin A88T with a voltage divider network. On the home setup I can't turn the volume beyond 9 o'clock. I have ordered new resistors to change the divider ratio from 3:1 to approximately 8:1 which should give me about -25db attenuation thus more useable volume control. Can't help myself. I love to try new things to see if the sound is improved. I must have looked quite GEEKY walking around with those LCD's on my head. Even my dog was giving me strange looks. That's OK as I live in Canada and we are used to seeing GEEKY things.


----------



## jodgey4

Lol, nice. I'd probably never wear mine in public, but to each his own!
  
 In Dec. 2013, Audeze began including the Fazor waveguide from the X and XC cans in the 2's and 3's as well, which increases efficiency from 90 db/mW to 93. Here's Tyll's article about the topic. http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/audeze-lcd-x-fazor-and-fresh-listen-current-lcd-2-and-lcd-3 .There's much more to it on the sound debate side of things, but I won't get into that here, it's the wrong thread for that. The Fazor guides do make amping more easy, so any amp that has been reported to sound good but potentially lack power now might be more feasible.


----------



## Poladise

kahldog said:


> I must have looked quite GEEKY walking around with those LCD's on my head. Even my dog was giving me strange looks.


 
  
 haha love it


----------



## DarrenLays

jodgey4 said:


> Ahh, I see. For other readers, to reach 130 dB with the Fazor model, you need 4W. Most recommend 120 db as a good target, which would be 0.5W. For the older non-Fazor models, double the power requirements (as they are 3 db less efficient). Audeze states 1-4W is preferable, though for Fazor models I think those bounds should be cut in half for just pure volume requirements. I'll expand on this below. The NFB-28 will do about 6W, Lyr 4W, and A28 2W... all should be plenty sufficient, especially on Fazor models. If we're just going for power, the NFB-28 wins
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  
  
 Isn't the "recommended safe listening level" like ~85 db?  I feel like most music wouldn't peak that high unless you were already listening at well over safe listening levels, but I'm not sure
  
 Does the NFB-28 have a good sub-bass extension?  I read some reviews about the Yulong A28 and a few mentioned it has a dip in the sub-bass compared to other amps they owned.


----------



## jodgey4

Yes, safe levels are 85 dB, and even that's a little loud IMHO. But peaks in music, depending on compression, can be much higher, there's a good thread about this (dynamic range in digital audio = bits, if you're wondering how on earth this is related). http://www.head-fi.org/t/731964/10-bits-of-sample-depth-is-more-than-enough-for-audio-with-tests-that-you-can-perform-to-prove-it-to-yourself
 Like I said... I couldn't make any valid comparisons to other amps. Ask in the NFB-28 thread... Sorry!


----------



## Sound Eq

quick question can the all national drive the audeze lcd2 rev2 good, and what sound signature it has, and how is the bass on it


----------



## kahldog

Hi,
 I just tried the Continental V2 with my LCD 2's and it drove them without any problem whatsoever. Apparently the National and the Continental have similar output power so you should not have any problem. What have you been driving them with currently? If it is solid state it will more than likely sound the same. If it is tube based then it might not sound as warm. I must point out that IMHO the LCD 2 sounds best with an amp that can drive 3-5 watts into the LCD's impedance load.


----------



## DarrenLays

I just received my Schiit Lyr, man... I've never enjoyed my time with my LCD-2's this much.
  
 I previously had an O2 + ODAC, and I feel as if the Lyr made the soundstage better, and the bass more resonant + present.
  
  
 My friends are obsessed with double blind tests, and measurements + placebo effect etc, and won't shutup about telling me it's in my head + o2 measures better and without blind tests I can't say it sounds better.
 (Even though it does to me, which is all I care about)
  
  
 I understand measurements etc are important, but I prefer my personal opinion + preferences and enjoying my hobby over measurements.


----------



## Argo Duck

^ Good for you. My job is all about measurement, its validity and reliability, but I haven't found _anything_ in complex, multifactorial settings that approach a perfect closed system with absolute predictability as a given.

My suspicion (but that's all it is) is listening is just exactly one of these complex phenomena!

Enjoy the Lyr - what tubes?


----------



## DarrenLays

argo duck said:


> ^ Good for you. My job is all about measurement, its validity and reliability, but I haven't found _anything_ in complex, multifactorial settings that approach a perfect closed system with absolute predictability as a given.
> 
> My suspicion (but that's all it is) is listening is just exactly one of these complex phenomena!
> 
> Enjoy the Lyr - what tubes?


 
  
  
 The stock GE ones,
  
 man it's so pretty looking as well!


----------



## Argo Duck

Oh yeah the GEs are pretty nice. You're in for a treat from some of the other options - Lyr is very responsive to tube rolling.

Watch your wallet though!


----------



## DarrenLays

argo duck said:


> Oh yeah the GEs are pretty nice. You're in for a treat from some of the other options - Lyr is very responsive to tube rolling.
> 
> Watch your wallet though!


 
  
  
 Any recommendations?


----------



## Argo Duck

Well I didn't explore too many options before I got a Decware, but read a lot of accounts of what others were enjoying.

Of those I personally tried, Matsushiita (National) 6922 tubes were something of a revelation. About $40 each, MacedonianHero first put me on to them. He described them as having a "wonderful, earthy" quality with nice bass. I found they had clarity and tone and yes nice bass. They had sparkle but it was their layer and texture lower down that worked well with my LCD2r1. Not syrupy like some; not boring (lacking dynamics) like others.

All these qualities yet I think most in the Lyr tube rollers thread saw these as pretty much entry level!


----------



## kahldog

darrenlays said:


> I just received my Schiit Lyr, man... I've never enjoyed my time with my LCD-2's this much.
> 
> I previously had an O2 + ODAC, and I feel as if the Lyr made the soundstage better, and the bass more resonant + present.
> 
> ...


 

 Great stuff!! I couldn't agree more with you statements. Unfortunately for me it never seems to end looking for that next jewel. I guess that is what keeps the HOBBY alive. Enjoy your music!!!


----------



## DarrenLays

http://linustechtips.com/main/topic/221772-calculating-audeze-lcd-2s-power-requirement-vs-o2/#entry3039796
  
 I really don't agree with this, my experience with the Objective 2 disagrees with these findings IMO.


----------



## kahldog

darrenlays said:


> http://linustechtips.com/main/topic/221772-calculating-audeze-lcd-2s-power-requirement-vs-o2/#entry3039796
> 
> I really don't agree with this, my experience with the Objective 2 disagrees with these findings IMO.


 

 Whether you agree or disagree is irrelevant as it is purely a subjective experience in what we enjoy. It is great that you enjoy the Objective 2. Enough said.


----------



## DarrenLays

kahldog said:


> Whether you agree or disagree is irrelevant as it is purely a subjective experience in what we enjoy. It is great that you enjoy the Objective 2. Enough said.




Experiencing clipping and distortion at high volumes is not subjective and I didn't have an enjoyable experience with it because of those reasons


----------



## kahldog

darrenlays said:


> Experiencing clipping and distortion at high volumes is not subjective and I didn't have an enjoyable experience with it because of those reasons


 

 That must have been very disappointing. I am fortunate as I enjoy the even order harmonic distortion my tube setup affords and that is subjective. Some would say, based on measurements and techno babble, that this is not in holding with the purest notion of music reproduction but I think it has been adequately demonstrated that we are unable to recreate the original music event to perfection because there are too many variables in the reproduction chain. Why else would we have so many different brands, models and  technologies, available on the consumer market, in pursuit of attaining this state of nirvana. Read all of the different reviews and how they praise the virtues of each component from cables to modifications. If that isn't subjective I certainly need to redefine the word.


----------



## Poladise

darrenlays said:


> Experiencing clipping and distortion at high volumes is not subjective and I didn't have an enjoyable experience with it because of those reasons


 
 That must have been some seriously loud listening. I had clipping once on the o2, but it stopped when I reduced the volume in windows. Realised high gain was selected on o2. Turned the gain to lowest and put windows back to full. I guess high gain is only for low output sources. Never heard clipping again after that.


----------



## sling5s

Is the Lyr 2 and LCD-2 Fazor still the most popular combo?  
 And is the Vali sufficient for the LCD-2 Fazor?


----------



## goldendarko

Schiit website says the vali isn't great with orthos or other hard to drive headphones so no you should stick with the lyr


----------



## sling5s

thanks


----------



## Argo Duck

When did the Lyr2/LCD2F become the most popular combo? Did I miss the news flash? Seriously, has there been a poll or something?

And yep, Vali has never previously been recommended with orthos. Don't know whether the altered impedances of the F-series changes this though


----------



## sling5s

That was long ago (many years ago), poll.  When the Lyr was one of the few amps that power the hard to drive LCD-2 rev.1.


----------



## Argo Duck

Gotcha. There's been a lot of good options since, including Lyr 2, Mjolnir and now (it seems) Ragnarok just to focus on the Schiit stable.

Might be the fazor versions require a re-think about LCD/amp combos because of the greater apparent brightness and improved sound-stage...(speculating...)


----------



## jodgey4

And less power requirements, which is why I want to try the Bottlehead S.E.X.


----------



## Skyfall

I have been enjoying both ALO Continental and RSA Intruder on my LCD 2.2 with the later being a little better.
  
 Intruder has got very good power even on low gain but I'd like to use high gain since I feel LCD responses a lot better with more power and it gives tighter bass respond, wider and more pronounce sound stage. It also has this smooth, airy and open sound like a sea breeze with deep punchy bass. Overall, I am very happy with the pairing so far but..that's not it. It is just the tip of the iceberg because it's all done on a single ended output.
 On balance, Intruder becomes a different beast and does everything with bigger sound and more authority. At least that's what people swear on the the thread as I'm still waiting for my balance cable from Headphone Lounge....Hi Ted!
  
 Long story short, I struck a very good deal on ALO MK3-B and this thing....OMG!!!
 It is EVERYTHING I ever want on this hobby. Pairing it with LCD is simply S T U N N I N G.


----------



## Lohb

I heard the RSA stuff tends to be on the dark side, would that be correct ? I love that style, but all the planar micro-detail goodness style streams through !


----------



## Justin_Time

lohb said:


> I heard the RSA stuff tends to be on the dark side, would that be correct ? I love that style, but all the planar micro-detail goodness style streams through !


 
 Just the Opposite.
  
 My RSA Dark Star is quite bright.  That's why it mates with the LCD so well.


----------



## Lohb

justin_time said:


> Just the Opposite.
> 
> My RSA Dark Star is quite bright.  That's why it mates with the LCD so well.


 

 Ah yeah the big boy monster amp....but I thought generally the portables had this dark top-grade SQ to them ?


----------



## sling5s

argo duck said:


> When did the Lyr2/LCD2F become the most popular combo? Did I miss the news flash? Seriously, has there been a poll or something?
> 
> And yep, Vali has never previously been recommended with orthos. Don't know whether the altered impedances of the F-series changes this though


 
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/716576/head-fis-favourite-amp-for-the-audeze-lcd-2-200-1000-poll
  
 thinking I was referring to this one.


----------



## Argo Duck

I'd forgotten about that poll! Needed more votes, lots of uncontrolled variables but it certainly found the 'big 3' (Lyr, Mjolnir, V200) of recent years.

One caveat with the Lyr and presumably Lyr2 is that better tubes make a profound difference compared to stock. I bet most of those votes were with other tubes! Lyr is _very_ responsive to tube-rolling (Lyr tube rolling thread).


----------



## sling5s

Just placed an order for the Lyr 2.  I'm hoping: Lyr + Vali = Lyr 2.
 Vali microdyanamics and Lyr macrodynamics both togeter in Lyr 2.


----------



## Poladise

Vali was a weird match with LCD2. The high frequencies were brilliant, but bass was loose and wet. Overall it had a smooth, but cold sound to it.


----------



## Argo Duck

AFAIK Vali was never meant for orthos. Decware have a similar division: CSP amp/preamp for dynamics and Taboo for orthos.


----------



## Poladise

argo duck said:


> AFAIK Vali was never meant for orthos.


 
  
 Yeah dont think it is, but I'd read reports of it being quite pleasing with LCD2s despite lacking some control. Thought it might be something good and cheap to use while looking for other amps. Just preferred the o2 and ld i+ to it, so sent it back. Worth a try.


----------



## squallkiercosa

How come nobody ever mention receivers or interfaces like those from focusrite? The one I tried sounded pretty much neutral to me.


----------



## Justin_Time

poladise said:


> Vali was a weird match with LCD2. The high frequencies were brilliant, but bass was loose and wet. Overall it had a smooth, but cold sound to it.



 


The Mjolnir is a far better match for LCD2 though the fireworks may be fatiguing in the long run.I like it a lot for short-term listening with exciting music.


----------



## Poladise

justin_time said:


> poladise said:
> 
> 
> > Vali was a weird match with LCD2. The high frequencies were brilliant, but bass was loose and wet. Overall it had a smooth, but cold sound to it.
> ...


 
  
 Tried one for a few days. The treble was great. The anemic bass and thin mid range was not nice to listen to though.


----------



## Justin_Time

poladise said:


> Tried one for a few days. The treble was great. The anemic bass and thin mid range was not nice to listen to though.



 


I had the same problem. Three things solved the problem.

First do not use any power conditioner, especially small ones. Use the AC plug directly.

I threw away the stock power cord, replaced it with a big, fat WireWorld power cord and connect it directly to the wall AC: the bass mproved.

Also to get the best bass, you must use the balanced output (XLR connector), not the SE output (1/4" plug. What did you use?


----------



## Poladise

justin_time said:


> Also to get the best bass, you must use the balanced output (XLR connector), not the SE output (1/4" plug. What did you use?


 
  
 Used the 3 pin XLR outputs. Sources: ODAC, Xonar Essence ST and Naim CD5 player. All single ended.


----------



## Flisker

When I see talk about Lyr and LCD2 , what tubes do you guys prefer for this combo ? Just recently bought Lyr & LCD2.2 and I'am thinking about getting some nice tubes.
  
 Thanks in advance


----------



## jaywillin

new owner of a pair of lcd2F, and i have a lyr now, i like my telefunken tubes


----------



## Argo Duck

Which telefunkens? IIRC a terrific match with the non-fazored LCD2.


----------



## jaywillin

argo duck said:


> Which telefunkens? IIRC a terrific match with the non-fazored LCD2.


 
 i have a pair of ec189's , they are were cheaper than ecc88's, 
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/380855716390?_trksid=p2059210.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


----------



## Argo Duck

Cool. Telefunkens are good tubes. Obviously they sound good with your 2F :tongue_smile:


----------



## jaywillin

argo duck said:


> Cool. Telefunkens are good tubes. Obviously they sound good with your 2F


 
 check out the lyr tube rollers thread


----------



## Argo Duck

Thanks. Been there, done that (found National/Matsu 6922s very good with my Lyr 1).

Use a Decware Taboo and CSP2 for my tube fix these days - tube rolling is _way_ cheaper!


----------



## sling5s

With the LCD-2F, you really don't need much to drive it.  
 I have the Lyr 2 with Uber Bifrost but most of the time use the lowly 450 Geek Out and it sounds pretty good.


----------



## Todeon

Hey Guys! I have the lcd 2 rev 2 with some kickass toxic cables to go along with it. 6.3 plug. Currently running it throug V90-Dac with Power Supply and the matrix m stage . Im thinking im gonna upgrade it to a dac/amp combo in the 600-1000$ area. I've been looking att Yulong D200 and Audio-gd NFB-10ES2 as two alternatives. Do you guys know if they would match up well and have good synergy with the lcd2 rev 2 or do you have any other suggestions? Thanks in advance!


----------



## muad

What is the difference between the Audio-gd NFB-10ES2 and the NFB-28?


----------



## jodgey4

muad said:


> What is the difference between the Audio-gd NFB-10ES2 and the NFB-28?


 
 10ES2 is I think a discontinued version with an older USB implementation IIRC.


----------



## dagothur

The NFB has amazing synergy with the LCD-2s.  I haven't had the temptation to upgrade from it since I bought it in February 2012.


----------



## i019791

muad said:


> What is the difference between the Audio-gd NFB-10ES2 and the NFB-28?


 
 10ES2 does not have line in
 Probably it does not support DSD without an extra kit


----------



## madwolfa

With LCD-2F, I don't see why anyone would need more power than what Asgard 2 offers. I'm using that combo in LOW GAIN with volume pot at 9-10 am and there's ton of juice to spare.


----------



## diamondears

Anybody tried LCD-2fazor with iFi micro iDSD? What's the sound like? And if you've tried it as well with iFi nano iDSD, what's the difference in sound?

Cheers.


----------



## roflcopter159

diamondears said:


> Anybody tried LCD-2fazor with iFi micro iDSD? What's the sound like? And if you've tried it as well with iFi nano iDSD, what's the difference in sound?
> 
> Cheers.


 
 I tried it pretty briefly (micro) at a meet last weekend. From my little bit of time with the combo, I liked it. It will likely be the next amp I get (and keep) until I stop having to move my set up so frequently and can get something in a larger form factor. Pretty impressive device for the price in my opinion. 
  
 EDIT: Can't really give too many specifics on what it sounds like since
 A) it was at a meet
 B) I don't remember exactly what it sounded like, just that I liked how it sounded and performed with my LCD 2
 C) Even if I did remember exactly what it sounded like, I'm pretty inexperienced with how to describe that sound


----------



## diamondears

roflcopter159 said:


> I tried it pretty briefly (micro) at a meet last weekend. From my little bit of time with the combo, I liked it. It will likely be the next amp I get (and keep) until I stop having to move my set up so frequently and can get something in a larger form factor. Pretty impressive device for the price in my opinion.
> 
> EDIT: Can't really give too many specifics on what it sounds like since
> A) it was at a meet
> ...


 How do you compare it to the sound of your equipment at that time and what's uour equipment? We're you also able to try the nano iDSD, how does it compare to the micro iDSD?


----------



## roflcopter159

diamondears said:


> How do you compare it to the sound of your equipment at that time and what's uour equipment? We're you also able to try the nano iDSD, how does it compare to the micro iDSD?


 
 The nano was at the meet, but I did not get a chance to try that out. Someone else will have to chime in to help you out there. 
  
 As for comparing it to my own equipment, it is a huge improvement to what I have. I have an Aune T1 and I don't think that my equipment currently allows the LCD 2 to reach their full potential. 
  
 I noticed you have the O2. I tried the O2 at the meet as well (same owner as the Micro) and I thought that the Micro was a bit more fun to listen to but I'm not sure I could describe how at this point. I think that the number of features that the Micro provides over the O2 alone is worth the purchase to me, and I thought that it sounded (subjectively) better than the O2. Like I said, the Micro is likely to be my next purchase (as well as a stopping point until I'm out of school). I have no doubts that the Micro would be able to adequately power any pair of headphones you could throw at it and have them all sound pretty solid. 
  
 EDIT: In case you are interested/looking for other options for home setups, my absolute favorite amp that I was able to try at the meet was a modded Bottlehead S.E.X.


----------



## diamondears

roflcopter159 said:


> The nano was at the meet, but I did not get a chance to try that out. Someone else will have to chime in to help you out there.
> 
> As for comparing it to my own equipment, it is a huge improvement to what I have. I have an Aune T1 and I don't think that my equipment currently allows the LCD 2 to reach their full potential.
> 
> ...


 Thanks for the replies roflcopter59. Appreciate it.


----------



## roflcopter159

diamondears said:


> Thanks for the replies roflcopter59. Appreciate it.


 
 No problem, hopefully I was able to help some. If you end up with a Micro, I'd love to hear your thoughts on it.


----------



## Lohb

I wonder if anyone is using the likes of Bakoon with LCD-2 ...is it an amazing pairing ?


----------



## snip3r77

I'm currently using the La Figaro 339.
  
 Moving from HE-500, which Audeze is an upgrade ( not ) sidegrade for me?


----------



## diamondears

All I can say about iFi micro iDSD>>Audeze LCD-2F is wow. It's battery powered, so it's very convenient using it at home as you can move around and not fixed to a certain part of your house. And very iPhone/iTouch friendly. 

That iFi/AMR house sound is just incredible. The detail, the deep bass, the silky midrange and treble... For those who likes these characteristics, I suggest the iFi micro iDSD. It's not actually cheap for a portable, but it's worth it. This could be an end game DAC-amp for headphones whether for home or portable/transportable use. Highly recommended for Audeze LCD-2 owners. 

P.S.: For those who find the LCD-2F a tiny bit short on deepest bass (40hz below), you'll like the iFi micro iDSD's XBass boost. Doesn't bleed at all to upper bass. And for those who thinks the LCD-2 Rev. 2's imaging, mids and treble lacks that tiny bit of precision, you'll like the iFi micro iDSD's 3D option. Enjoy.


----------



## diamondears

snip3r77 said:


> I'm currently using the La Figaro 339.
> 
> Moving from HE-500, which Audeze is an upgrade ( not ) sidegrade for me?


 "Just" the LCD-2 is an upgrade, whether Rev. 2 or Fazor edition.


----------



## Decoy

I've got an LCD 2.2 run off a Yulong DA8 and I've got an A28 and a balanced cable in the mail.  Does anyone have any experience running the LCD2.2 off this combo?


----------



## NinjaHamster

diamondears said:


> "Just" the LCD-2 is an upgrade, whether Rev. 2 or Fazor edition.




+1


----------



## Lohb

Anyone seen this new Capella amp from Beresford UK ?
http://www.homehifi.co.uk/S2/tc-7110%20f.htm
 I'm trying to find out  if it is powerful enough for the older LCD 2.1's...should be fine for Fazor.
  
 Features...
  
 Gain Control
 Damping Control
 HF Control
 Soundstage depth dialability.
Soundstage width dialability.
 L/R channel Balance
  

  
 Edit : I think it can do 6 watts on 12 volts power/ 7.5 watts on 15 volts.
 Loads of headroom.
 Though I had issues with the Bushmaster Mk2 DAC @ 24/96 on OSX/A+. ...his stuff is known to over-deliver significantly on the price.


----------



## Kevinspeed

I have had a really good experience using a Burson Soloist with my LCD 2.  I upgraded to the Cavalli LAu and it did amazing stuff with the LCD 2.  I decided to move up to the LCD 3 so I sold my LCD 2 recently.  I still have the Burson and it works great with the LCD 3 (w/fazor).  I am thing I am going to sell the Burson and try a tube amp with the Audezes.


----------



## Amish

I'm thinking about picking up a WooAudio WA2, La Figaro 339, or Inspire IHA-1. Have some time to decide as I have to return my current amp for a refund after a little more testing. I loved the Ember amp with LCD-2f so i think I need to go back to tubes.


----------



## levinhatz

amish said:


> I'm thinking about picking up a WooAudio WA2, La Figaro 339, or Inspire IHA-1. Have some time to decide as I have to return my current amp for a refund after a little more testing. I loved the Ember amp with LCD-2f so i think I need to go back to tubes.


 
  
 I trust you'll post your comparison?


----------



## Amish

levinhatz said:


> I trust you'll post your comparison?


 

 Not sure if I will be buying any of them. Since receiving my balanced audeze cable the Bryston BHA-1 has come alive like no other. This just might be a keeper!
  
  
 Okay. I will officially go on record as stating that the BHA-1 is a perfect match for the LCD-2 R2F.


----------



## korzena

I've gone through a part of this thread, but it's really really long and I have a question in mind. If someone would care to answer it, I'd be grateful.
  
 Could I get a better amp for my LCD-2 (rev.2) than Lyr with v.good tubes for the similar price (that is around $600). Or would I be better off upgrading my DAC (Bifrost Uber) for this money? Which upgrade would make more sense sound quality wise? Thank you.


----------



## madwolfa

korzena said:


> Could I get a better amp for my LCD-2 (rev.2) than Lyr with v.good tubes for the similar price (that is around $600). Or would I be better off upgrading my DAC (Bifrost Uber) for this money? Which upgrade would make more sense sound quality wise? Thank you.


 
  
 I would leave it as is and spend money elsewhere (I just got a pair of high-end IEMs, for instance). I don't see how upgrading any of those would significantly increase sound quality.
  
 Unless you have a severe case of upgraditis, of course.


----------



## korzena

madwolfa said:


> I would leave it as is and spend money elsewhere (I just got a pair of high-end IEMs, for instance). I don't see how upgrading any of those would significantly increase sound quality.
> 
> Unless you have a severe case of upgraditis, of course.


 
 Probably not a severe upgraditis at the moment, just a mild one I've been reading for some time that Lyr/Bifrost may be limiting the potential of LCD-2. The question is to what extent and how much more I could get from the headphones with a relatively cheap upgrade (say $600) in my audio chain, which is:
 J.River Media Center 19> MK3 JKSPDIF (usb-spdif converter)> Schiit Bifrost > Schiit Lyr > LCD-2 rev.2


----------



## madwolfa

korzena said:


> Probably not a severe upgraditis at the moment, really just a mild one after I've been reading for some time that Lyr/Bifrost may be limiting much greater potential of LCD-2.
> The question is how much more I could get from the headphone and if it is possible to achieve relatively cheaply (let's say $600).


 
  
 Hard to say. I would try buying something with a great return policy at least. It's not going to be a night and day difference, though. Schiit stuff is very solid at any price level.


----------



## DemonFox

Honestly the only amp I've ever tried that gave me the most out of my LCD-2 was my vintage Pioneer. It was the only one with REAL power. 

It allowed me to play them at low volumes but with loads of kick so I got the most out of them at all times. 

Never a dull moment 

So do yourself a favor and hop on Craigslist and see if you can find a nice Pioneer, Yamaha, marantz, or others and you'll never look back. 


Thanks,


:evil:


----------



## Justin_Time

korzena said:


> Probably not a severe upgraditis at the moment, just a mild one I've been reading for some time that Lyr/Bifrost may be limiting the potential of LCD-2. The question is to what extent and how much more I could get from the headphones with a relatively cheap upgrade (say $600) in my audio chain, which is:
> J.River Media Center 19> MK3 JKSPDIF (usb-spdif converter)> Schiit Bifrost > Schiit Lyr > LCD-2 rev.2


 
 Clean and powerful SS amps are typically good matches for the LCD2. 
  
 I can only recommend what I have listened to for a long time. I suggest two relatively affordable amps:  the Vioelectric V200 and the Schiit Mjolnir, both under $1,000 new and, I hope, in your price range.  You can pick up a used one, in excellent condition for a lot less than $1,000, especially now that many are upgrading to the bigger brothers (V281 and Ragnarok).
  
 Of the two, the  V200 had a cleaner sound and power enough for the LCD2 but you could get even more power with slightly less sophisticated sound with the balanced V181:  thunderous bass but somewhat dark sound. To stick with the Schiit family, the Mjolnir can make the LCD2 really shine:  good bass and clear mid-range with much of the dark sound of the LCD2 gone.  But, depending on your sensitivity, the sizzling treble may prove to be fatiguing in long run so it's best to audition first.


----------



## jaywillin

amish said:


> Not sure if I will be buying any of them. Since receiving my balanced audeze cable the Bryston BHA-1 has come alive like no other. This just might be a keeper!
> 
> 
> Okay. I will officially go on record as stating that the BHA-1 is a perfect match for the LCD-2 R2F.


 
 the bha-1 is super with just about anything


----------



## korzena

justin_time said:


> Clean and powerful SS amps are typically good matches for the LCD2.
> 
> I can only recommend what I have listened to for a long time. I suggest two relatively affordable amps:  the Vioelectric V200 and the Schiit Mjolnir, both under $1,000 new and, I hope, in your price range.  You can pick up a used one, in excellent condition for a lot less than $1,000, especially now that many are upgrading to the bigger brothers (V281 and Ragnarok).
> 
> Of the two, the  V200 had a cleaner sound and power enough for the LCD2 but you could get even more power with slightly less sophisticated sound with the balanced V181:  thunderous bass but somewhat dark sound. To stick with the Schiit family, the Mjolnir can make the LCD2 really shine:  good bass and clear mid-range with much of the dark sound of the LCD2 gone.  But, depending on your sensitivity, the sizzling treble may prove to be fatiguing in long run so it's best to audition first.


 
  


jaywillin said:


> the bha-1 is super with just about anything


 
  
  
 Thank you guys for the recommendations!


----------



## Justin_Time

korzena said:


> Thank you guys for the recommendations!


 
 If you like, please check my opinion of the Bryston BHA-1/LCD pairing in an old (and very long) post of mine:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/729976/matching-headphones-cables-amplifiers-harder-than-it-should-be-very-long-post
  
 Happy hunting!


----------



## diamondears

The LCD-2s, IMHO, could be enjoyed or taken advantaged mostly with a NEUTRAL AND TRANSPARENT amp, like the Bryston BHA-1, Benchmark or the Objective2. I think its designer has grown tired of dark-warm sounding amps for bright or no-sub bass sounding HPs..


----------



## diamondears

justin_time said:


> If you like, please check my opinion of the Bryston BHA-1/LCD pairing in an old (and very long) post of mine:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/729976/matching-headphones-cables-amplifiers-harder-than-it-should-be-very-long-post
> 
> Happy hunting!




My next amp purchase due to its true neutrality and HP output options. And that 20-year warranty, wow.


----------



## lestatdi

hi!

im using atm my LCD2 Fazor with the O2/ODAC combo.
i think i would prefer a little more bass in the sound than the O2 could provide.

what amp/dac combo would u recommend?

if i buy the Schiit Lyr would be a ULTRAGORGEOUS diference or something that only trained ears could hear?
or maybe the idsd micro with the bass boost?

Well, in my case, what amp would u recommend? max $ 300/400 if the difference really worth!


----------



## diamondears

lestatdi said:


> hi!
> 
> im using atm my LCD2 Fazor with the O2/ODAC combo.
> i think i would prefer a little more bass in the sound than the O2 could provide.
> ...




The micro iDSD is US$500, I believe. 

If you're me at that budget, I'll get a 2nd hand DAC with multiple filters to connect to the O2. DacMagic+ Would fit your budget. Rega DAC also. M-DAC is much better with excellent digiyal fikters that would bring out the bass in a recording, but it's slightly higher than your budget. 

I have an Audiolab 8200CD (CD player+M-DAC integrated) and it sounds very bass sufficient, especially with the Optimal Transient DD filter for the great sub-bass (which I've found only the Audezes can dig, btw).


----------



## x RELIC x

As a general recommendation I really enjoy my LCD-2 with balanced cable plugged in to the Oppo HA-1. There is plenty of power on tap for the dynamics and the LCD warmth plays well with the detail from the HA-1. It doesn't put me in to a musical coma like the Pan Am but sure gets the PRaT right.


----------



## korzena

lestatdi said:


> hi!
> 
> im using atm my LCD2 Fazor with the O2/ODAC combo.
> i think i would prefer a little more bass in the sound than the O2 could provide.
> ...


 
  
 Some users here give a lot of praise to GUSTARD H10 amp ($350 shipped) especially with planar headphones (LCD-2 included of course!)
(The discussion about the amp: http://www.head-fi.org/t/735828/gustard-h10-high-current-discrete-class-a-output-stage-headphone-amplifier) ...from which it seems that Gustard H10 has more bass extension and power than O2 and in general is a very very good amp.
  
I am considering myself  buying it, although I am still researching the topic as I would like to be sure it will be a clear upgrade from my Lyr. At the moment I haven't found the definite answer (but i am in the middle of the thread so maybe there is more info ahead)


----------



## lestatdi

but these amps you did recommend would be night and day difference between the O2?

and what do you think about the Ifi IDSD micro? the extra bass button would be what im looking for?
i just want more bass for my LCD2. i really dont need any changes in sound signature...


----------



## yuri001

Just bought a LCD2! Currently i'm using ifi nano can and if i switch to Lyr2, would it be a huge difference? 
  
 I was going to wait for the new Audeze dac/amp but seems it won't come out until march.


----------



## roflcopter159

lestatdi said:


> but these amps you did recommend would be night and day difference between the O2?
> 
> and what do you think about the Ifi IDSD micro? the extra bass button would be what im looking for?
> i just want more bass for my LCD2. i really dont need any changes in sound signature...


 
 If you are looking for something that would just bump up the bass just a touch or two, then yea, the extra bass switch is pretty nice. If you are looking for more of a boost than that, the iDSD micro isn't really the right choice.


----------



## Justin_Time

lestatdi said:


> but these amps you did recommend would be night and day difference between the O2?
> 
> and what do you think about the Ifi IDSD micro? the extra bass button would be what im looking for?
> i just want more bass for my LCD2. i really dont need any changes in sound signature...


 
 Compared to most IEMs and headphones, the LCD2 is power-hungry, less so than the AKG K1000 and HE-6, but more so than most anything else.
  
 You can get a slight bass boost with small portable amps but to get a real bass, you will likely need at least a desk-top size amp with big enough power supply and high current to feed the hungry monster.
  
 And about the sound signature of the LCD2, with all due respect, I do not think you have heard it yet until you give the LCD2 adequate amplification.


----------



## diamondears

justin_time said:


> Compared to most IEMs and headphones, the LCD2 is power-hungry, less so than the AKG K1000 and HE-6, but more so than most anything else.
> 
> You can get a slight bass boost with small portable amps but to get a real bass, you will likely need at least a desk-top size amp with big enough power supply and high current to feed the hungry monster.
> 
> And about the sound signature of the LCD2, with all due respect, I do not think you have heard it yet until you give the LCD2 adequate amplification.




What's "adequate" amplification for LCD-2?


----------



## Justin_Time

diamondears said:


> What's "adequate" amplification for LCD-2?



 


I left that ambiguous on purpose as it varies a lot from one person to another.

The LCD2/3 are designed for desk-top or home use, not really as portable headphones--though some, to my surprise, have used them as such--so as a rule of thumb, you need a desk-top or full-size amp to drive these cans properly. The distinction made by Head-Fi forums of portable vs. full-size is a good guideline.


----------



## diamondears

justin_time said:


> diamondears said:
> 
> 
> > What's "adequate" amplification for LCD-2?
> ...



LCD-2.2 only needs around 1.99Vrms to reach 110dB, IIRC. LCD-2F around 1.89Vrms.


----------



## Justin_Time

diamondears said:


> LCD-2.2 only needs around 1.99Vrms to reach 110dB, IIRC. LCD-2F around 1.89Vrms.



 


If that is the criteria you are using to select the amp for your LCD, who am I to disagree?


----------



## diamondears

justin_time said:


> diamondears said:
> 
> 
> > LCD-2.2 only needs around 1.99Vrms to reach 110dB, IIRC. LCD-2F around 1.89Vrms.
> ...



What's your criteria then? Must be desktop and expensive, eh?


----------



## dagothur

diamondears said:


> What's your criteria then? Must be desktop and expensive, eh?


 
 It's not pretentious to think they could benefit from a powerful amp, from experience.  The difference between running them from a Nuforce HDP or a portable and from a Lyr is not insignificant.


----------



## Amish

I have to agree with dag on this one. My LCD2F sounds much better via a home amp Vs a portable. Like it is a big difference to me. Just because he is saying you might benefit with a home amp does not mean you have to spend thousands of dollars. A $250 Polaris does these cans justice. In my experience I have used the following equipment to power my LCD2F cans:
  
 Windows phone
 ipod
 ipad
 lappy
 PC
 Fiio E12
 HK 3490
 Onkyo TX-SR605
 Project Polaris
 Project Ember
 Bryston BHA-1
  
 And let me say that it sounded leaps better with the last 5 units in my list.


----------



## diamondears

Well, I've found that the limiting or differentiating factor on portable setups vs desktops is the DAC, not the amp.


----------



## x RELIC x

I find that with a more powerful amp the dynamics in the music improve exponentially. The bass has more impact and the mids and highs feel clearer. There just seems to be more PRaT. Sure, I can drive the LCD-2 to loud volumes with less powerful gear, but it sounds flat overall. I'm looking for a quality musical experience which I why I paid for an expensive headphone. Why would I hobble its potential with an amp that robs it of such potential. 

As far as DAC improvements, I agree that the planar drivers seem more detailed to me so the same thing applies. A better DAC shows the potential of the headphone.


----------



## diamondears

x relic x said:


> I find that with a more powerful amp the dynamics in the music improve exponentially. The bass has more impact and the mids and highs feel clearer. There just seems to be more PRaT. Sure, I can drive the LCD-2 to loud volumes with less powerful gear, but it sounds flat overall. I'm looking for a quality musical experience which I why I paid for an expensive headphone. Why would I hobble its potential with an amp that robs it of such potential.
> 
> As far as DAC improvements, I agree that the planar drivers seem more detailed to me so the same thing applies. A better DAC shows the potential of the headphone.




Did you compare the portable vs desktop amp (with both having enough power) using the same DAC?

I have previously thought so like you too, until I noticed that I was actually comparing the portable setup vs desktop setup using different portable DAC vs desktop DAC as well.


----------



## x RELIC x

diamondears said:


> Did you compare the portable vs desktop amp (with both having enough power) using the same DAC?
> 
> I have previously thought so like you too, until I noticed that I was actually comparing the portable setup vs desktop setup using different portable DAC vs desktop DAC as well.




Yes, volume matched @85db, listening to a variety of genres from classic rock to classical:

X5 DAP (high gain) HO to LCD-2

X5 DAP line-out to e12(high gain) to LCD-2

X5 DAP line-out to HA-1 SE to LCD-2

X5 DAP coaxial out to HA-1 SE to LCD-2

X5 DAP coaxial out to HA-1 Balanced to LCD-2

Out of the first three relevant comparisons the line-out to the HA-1 was better to me than the HO or the line-out to the e12 and they all used the X5 PCM1792 DAC. 

The coaxial to the HA-1, using the ESS9018 32 DAC, is an improvement for me, but not in the same areas. The impact and dynamics were the same, but the signature was slightly different and the micro detail was improved.

Edit: My list goes from top to bottom, worst to best.


----------



## Lohb

Any of you guys expert in amp design/schematics...?
  
 Would there be any obvious technical mis-matching with slightly harder to drive LCD 2.1's with this DIY current domain 40 watts/8 ohm amp ?
  
40 Watt Transconductance "Current Amplifier"
 Had looked at the dual-mono current domain LH Geek Out but want to choose a more organic DAC vs analytic for a full-size system...so seperate DAC/amp the way to go....think it would have circa 2.5 watts of headroom per ear @ 60 Ohms....within the recommended range for older Audeze cans.


----------



## diamondears

x relic x said:


> Yes, volume matched @85db, listening to a variety of genres from classic rock to classical:
> 
> X5 DAP (high gain) HO to LCD-2
> 
> ...



Well, all I I'm saying is that being a desktop amp doesn't always or automatically mean it would be better than a portable amp. 

I was really trying to find a portable amp and DAC where I can bring around the house and room. I've found that there are a few portable amps that is even better than a desktop amp (using the same DAC). If you consider the O2 a portable, I'll add it to my list. 

I think the primary reason desktop amps has been generally better than portables is because of the desktop DACs that goes along with it. Once the audio industry has found a way to make more portable DACs, there would be no more need for desktop amps. And as I said, there are already a few.


----------



## x RELIC x

diamondears said:


> Well, all I I'm saying is that being a desktop amp doesn't always or automatically mean it would be better than a portable amp.
> 
> I was really trying to find a portable amp and DAC where I can bring around the house and room. I've found that there are a few portable amps that is even better than a desktop amp (using the same DAC). If you consider the O2 a portable, I'll add it to my list.
> 
> I think the primary reason desktop amps has been generally better than portables is because of the desktop DACs that goes along with it. Once the audio industry has found a way to make more portable DACs, there would be no more need for desktop amps. And as I said, there are already a few.




Some good points for sure and I agree that just adding more power isn't the only answer. I would add that although I adore the Pan Am(portable?) with the LCD-2 I just hate it's DAC, so I say it goes both ways. The whole audio chain and all that. 

The fact remains that if a headphone is designed to run with more power it won't be used to its full potential if underpowered.


----------



## Lohb

diamondears said:


> Well, all I I'm saying is that being a desktop amp doesn't always or automatically mean it would be better than a portable amp.
> 
> I was really trying to find a portable amp and DAC where I can bring around the house and room. I've found that there are a few portable amps that is even better than a desktop amp (using the same DAC). If you consider the O2 a portable, I'll add it to my list.
> 
> I think the primary reason desktop amps has been generally better than portables is because of the desktop DACs that goes along with it. Once the audio industry has found a way to make more portable DACs, there would be no more need for desktop amps. And as I said, there are already a few.


 
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/729545/the-new-cayin-c5-portable-power-house/1080#post_11215071
 + U2 Sabre DAC + OTG compatible phone.... bang for the buck.
  
 You can also use a Light Harmonic GO1000 DAC/AMP with a phone that supports OTG + free HIBY player etc...need a splitter USB cable for add-on external battery power if ES9018M DAC chip is to your flavor.
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/711267/light-harmonic-geek-out-em-1000-impressions-thread/375#post_10489140


----------



## dagothur

diamondears said:


> I was really trying to find a portable amp and DAC where I can bring around the house and room. I've found that there are a few portable amps that is even better than a desktop amp (using the same DAC). If you consider the O2 a portable, I'll add it to my list.


 
 The O2 is a fantastic little unit.  I've found it compares well against much more expensive units.


----------



## x RELIC x

+1

Dagothur, you really in Antarctica?


----------



## diamondears

dagothur said:


> The O2 is a fantastic little unit.  I've found it compares well against much more expensive units.



+1. Haven't found any that's better actually, though I haven't heard some popular and expensive amps. Others color/tweaks the sound. I want to hear the actual recording, which, among the amps I've heard, is the best atm.


----------



## dagothur

diamondears said:


> +1. Haven't found any that's better actually, though I haven't heard some popular and expensive amps. Others color/tweaks the sound. I want to hear the actual recording, which, among the amps I've heard, is the best atm.


 
 The Lyr and NFB-10 (now the NFB-27) are a must for you to try.  I prefer the latter as the former isn't much of a 'wow' unit, but you'll do well with either.


x relic x said:


> +1
> 
> Dagothur, you really in Antarctica?


 
 I would tell you, but then I'd have to shoot you.


----------



## diamondears

dagothur said:


> The Lyr and NFB-10 (now the NFB-27) are a must for you to try.  I prefer the latter as the former isn't much of a 'wow' unit, but you'll do well with either.
> I would tell you, but then I'd have to shoot you.



Would the SQ improvement, if any to my ears, worth the extra money vs the O2's price? I decided to just use that money to buy any other HP I like to try.


----------



## dagothur

diamondears said:


> Would the SQ improvement, if any to my ears, worth the extra money vs the O2's price? I decided to just use that money to buy any other HP I like to try.


 
 I prefer the NFB vastly over the O2 and you can run it balanced.  The Lyr is a solid amp that would work with most headphones but I don't recommend it over the O2 unless you're looking to make other upgrades in your system.


----------



## diamondears

dagothur said:


> I prefer the NFB vastly over the O2 and you can run it balanced.  The Lyr is a solid amp that would work with most headphones but I don't recommend it over the O2 unless you're looking to make other upgrades in your system.



The NFB has an integrated DAC, what Audio-GD amp only model would equal the NFB?


----------



## dagothur

diamondears said:


> The NFB has an integrated DAC, what Audio-GD amp only model would equal the NFB?


 
 The NFB-6, as far as I'm aware.  King-wa has changed the lineup quite a bit in the past three years since I first got my amp, so there's no telling what he'll be doing this year as well.


----------



## korzena

I couldn't find a similar thread for DAC for LCD-2 recommendations topic. So let me ask here.
  
 Which DAC, up to $1500, would synergize best with LCD-2 (rev.2) and Bryston BHA-1? 
  
I was thinking:
 Wyred4sound DAC-2
 Lavry DA11
 Schiit Gungnir 
 NuForce DAC9
 Anedio D2
  
 Could you help me decide?


----------



## diamondears

dagothur said:


> The NFB-6, as far as I'm aware.  King-wa has changed the lineup quite a bit in the past three years since I first got my amp, so there's no telling what he'll be doing this year as well.




NFB-6 is the balanced, C-2 Class A looks pretty good too. And both are under $500!


----------



## diamondears

korzena said:


> I couldn't find a similar thread for DAC for LCD-2 recommendations topic. So let me ask here.
> 
> Which DAC, up to $1500, would synergize best with LCD-2 (rev.2) and Bryston BHA-1?
> 
> ...




Assuming the BHA-1 sounds exactly like the O2, which it's designer claims it is in a double blind test he did IIRC, Audiolab 8200CD/CDQ/M-DAC. Its multiple digital filters are just amazing. The best non-digitally (aka analogue) sounding digital filters I've heard and studied. If you want digitally, it has that too. What more can you ask for? The DAC chip, the power supply, the implementation, the CD player, the digital inputs, balanced design, the preamp function, it's a complete package. It's only critique is it has no DSD atm. YMMV though, but that's my honest advise.


----------



## korzena

diamondears said:


> Assuming the BHA-1 sounds exactly like the O2, which it's designer claims it is in a double blind test he did IIRC, Audiolab 8200CD/CDQ/M-DAC. Its multiple digital filters are just amazing. The best non-digitally (aka analogue) sounding digital filters I've heard and studied. If you want digitally, it has that too. What more can you ask for? The DAC chip, the power supply, the implementation, the CD player, the digital inputs, balanced design, the preamp function, it's a complete package. It's only critique is it has no DSD atm. YMMV though, but that's my honest advise.


 
 Thanks. I've heard good things about Audiolab M-DAC (I don't need CD).
  
 I don't have Bryston yet, but I am about to buy one soon. BHA-1 is supposed to be an amazing pairing with LCD-2. I hope it is much better sounding amp for LCD-2 than O2. Otherwise I would not like to pay more unnecessarily.


----------



## diamondears

korzena said:


> Thanks. I've heard good things about Audiolab M-DAC (I don't need CD).
> 
> I don't have Bryston yet, but I am about to buy one soon. BHA-1 is supposed to be an amazing pairing with LCD-2. I hope it is much better sounding amp for LCD-2 than O2. Otherwise I would not like to pay more unnecessarily.



Yeah. I have to say, I'm extremely happy with the O2 with both my DacMagic Plus and 8200CD as DACs. The O2 is so transparent with the LCD-2 Rev. 2 that when I first heard the them together it was the first time that I could clearly hear the differences between the different digital filters.


----------



## Lohb

Anyone tried the Gustard H10 with LCD-2's ?


----------



## dermott

I have the LCD-2.2 (pre-fazor) currently paired with a Yulong DA8. I wanted to get an amp to go with the Yulong and wondering where the cost/benefit ceiling is. I would like to have a fully balanced rig to take full advantage of the DA8 as well as get some improvement on the soundstage of the LCD-2. Sounds like the big hitter, high output amps like the Violectric 281 and Schiit Ragnarok do very well with planars, but are they necessary if we are talking pre-fazor LCD-2? Yulong A28 can be had for quite a bit less, is fully balanced and will throw ~ 2 watts into the LCD-2.2 (not to mention keeping it "in the family"). Is this the "sweet spot" I should be looking at or is higher power going to produce better results? Perhaps a second hand Violectric V200?


----------



## Justin_Time

dermott said:


> I have the LCD-2.2 (pre-fazor) currently paired with a Yulong DA8. I wanted to get an amp to go with the Yulong and wondering where the cost/benefit ceiling is. I would like to have a fully balanced rig to take full advantage of the DA8 as well as get some improvement on the soundstage of the LCD-2. Sounds like the big hitter, high output amps like the Violectric 281 and Schiit Ragnarok do very well with planars, but are they necessary if we are talking pre-fazor LCD-2? Yulong A28 can be had for quite a bit less, is fully balanced and will throw ~ 2 watts into the LCD-2.2 (not to mention keeping it "in the family"). Is this the "sweet spot" I should be looking at or is higher power going to produce better results? Perhaps a second hand Violectric V200?




I would go for the V181 instead: balanced, more power (better bass) and a slightly less smooth sound, which is actually a plus for the LCD2.

For real fireworks, I like the Schitt Mjolnir (balanced output only) though that much excitement could be fatiguing in the long run. 

I had a long post on amps for the LCD and other HPs. Just check under my user names about post I started.


----------



## diamondears

justin_time said:


> I would go for the V181 instead: balanced, more power (better bass) and a slightly less smooth sound, which is actually a plus for the LCD2.
> 
> For real fireworks, I like the Schitt Mjolnir (balanced output only) though that much excitement could be fatiguing in the long run.
> 
> I had a long post on amps for the LCD and other HPs. Just check under my user names about post I started.



By "less smooth" you mean more grainy? Which could mean more mids and treble details, right?


----------



## Justin_Time

diamondears said:


> By "less smooth" you mean more grainy? Which could mean more mids and treble details, right?




Right.


----------



## diamondears

justin_time said:


> Right.



Thanks. Looks like a neutral balanced amp. Been wondering why the V181 is less popular than the V200. That may be the answer.


----------



## Justin_Time

diamondears said:


> Thanks. Looks like a neutral balanced amp. Been wondering why the V181 is less popular than the V200. That may be the answer.




The V200 has a smoother midrange than the V181 and a softer treble as well. It is an excellent match for the HD800, reducing its tendency toward a sibilant upper midrange-treble. But with the LCD2/3, the V200 being the more neutral amp has minimal impact on the LCD tendency toward a dark sound many love but that I find too far from neutral--really a personal preference. The V181 being just slightly less refined and a tad brighter but quite a bit more powerful than the V200, is a better match for the LCD2 by providing less caramel-coated sound and better bass.


----------



## mmlogic

dermott said:


> I have the LCD-2.2 (pre-fazor) currently paired with a Yulong DA8. I wanted to get an amp to go with the Yulong and wondering where the cost/benefit ceiling is. I would like to have a fully balanced rig to take full advantage of the DA8 as well as get some improvement on the soundstage of the LCD-2. Sounds like the big hitter, high output amps like the Violectric 281 and Schiit Ragnarok do very well with planars, but are they necessary if we are talking pre-fazor LCD-2? Yulong A28 can be had for quite a bit less, is fully balanced and will throw ~ 2 watts into the LCD-2.2 (not to mention keeping it "in the family"). Is this the "sweet spot" I should be looking at or is higher power going to produce better results? Perhaps a second hand Violectric V200?


 
 Or a V200 clone?
http://www.head-fi.org/t/735828/gustard-h10-high-current-discrete-class-a-output-stage-headphone-amplifier


----------



## Lohb

mmlogic said:


> Or a V200 clone?
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/735828/gustard-h10-high-current-discrete-class-a-output-stage-headphone-amplifier


 

 Yeah, been following this thread too. Going to pick one up this year. Seems to pair EXCELLENTLY with a wide range of planars barring HE-6.....


----------



## dermott

justin_time said:


> The V200 has a smoother midrange than the V181 and a softer treble as well. It is an excellent match for the HD800, reducing its tendency toward a sibilant upper midrange-treble. But with the LCD2/3, the V200 being the more neutral amp has minimal impact on the LCD tendency toward a dark sound many love but that I find too far from neutral--really a personal preference. The V181 being just slightly less refined and a tad brighter but quite a bit more powerful than the V200, is a better match for the LCD2 by providing less caramel-coated sound and better bass.


 

 I am confused. I thought the V200 was the more powerful amp (2700 mW @50 ohms vs. 2100 mW for the V181).


----------



## Justin_Time

t.





dermott said:


> I am confused. I thought the V200 was the more powerful amp (2700 mW @50 ohms vs. 2100 mW for the V181).




I do not recall the power rating of each amp but the main difference as I recall is that the V200 uses more expensive discrete components but is limited to SE operation while the v181 uses IC opamps but is fully balanced and thus more powerful. I have both amps but have not used them for a great while. All I recall is that with the V181 I could play the HE-6 pretty loud while I could not with the V200.

I understand that the new V281 is the V200 balanced and thus with more power. My memory is far from infallible these days but that is what I recall and I am too lazy to look up the specs in the manuals.

UPDATE: If my recollection is correct, the V200 (SE) edges out the V181 (balanced) by about 20% or so in power into 50 ohms. Strangely, the V181 (balanced) produces about 10-20% more power than the V200 at the higher impedance of 600 and 100 ohms and some other impedances I do not recall. It struck me as a strange behavior at the time I read this so the fact stuck in my mind. But I clearly recall that the V200 sounded a little better than the V181 overall but this latter sounded better and more powerful in the balanced mode with the HE-6 than the former limited to only the SE mode. If you use the V181 in SE mode, it will be less powerful than the V200, for sure.


----------



## NoxNoctum

Strongly considering getting these headphones and I'm leaning towards getting a Lyr for them.
  
 Do I also need to buy a DAC to get the most out of the LCD-2? Currently I have a Fiio X3 which I believe can serve as a DAC but maybe an upgrade is necessary?


----------



## jodgey4

The X3 should be fine, you can always audition and upgrade later. Schiit sells B-stock Lyr 1's on their site and Amazon for cheap, btw.


----------



## Lohb

Portable Cayin C5 amp pairing nicely with LCD-2.
 Surprised due to the price and output. Low-end does not go loose and the bass boost is great for some tracks when you want even more of that planar low-end goodness.
  
 The tonality and sound-stage presentation are key synergy features for LCD-2's. A tad smooth overall being the only negative with 2.1's. The bass boost may go well with F if some feel it is lighter than before subjectively. Using OPA134 chip, described elsewhere as   'airy, deep, hugely 3D'.
  
 The biggest hump would be getting over price prejudice if you feel $500 is a starting point for a portable amp for LCD-2's.


----------



## Sam Quentin

Does anyone run the LCD-2 on a Marantz HD-DAC1?
 What Gain-Settings do you use?


----------



## BTD III

In terms of a combo unit (dac/amp) has anyone heard the Auralic Gemini 2000 or the BMC PureDAC on the LCD-2(F)? Impressions of experience or second-hand info?


----------



## LancerFIN

Had a chance to listen LCD2.2F out of MuFi M1HPAp. Bass packed a punch and went so deep. Instantly fell in love. With NFB-15 bass comes nowhere as close. Any other amps that make the bass go deep? Preferably something that would go for around 350€ used. Definitely keeping eye on those M1HPAp's.


----------



## Moosi

lancerfin said:


> Had a chance to listen LCD2.2F out of MuFi M1HPAp. Bass packed a punch and went so deep. Instantly fell in love. With NFB-15 bass comes nowhere as close. Any other amps that make the bass go deep? Preferably something that would go for around 350€ used. Definitely keeping eye on those M1HPAp's.




Local store in Helsinki is selling that M1HPA for 380 euros at the moment .


----------



## LancerFIN

moosi said:


> Local store in Helsinki is selling that M1HPA for 380 euros at the moment
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Yeah I know. There was one for sale in hifiharrastajat for 320e couple days ago. It sold on instantly. I'm not sure what the difference between HPA and HPAp is other than there is more inputs in the newer model. If only I lived there I'd go test listen it.


----------



## NoxNoctum

So I've got a pair of LCD-2 rev.2s, as well as a new fazored rev. 3 version. My situation is this: I love the overall tone, but I *need* more grit/bite/crunch in the sound of distorted electric guitars. With some exceptions on specific recordings, the guitar tone just sounds too laid back/polite. Someone from the Lyr tube rolling thread is shipping some tubes that are supposed to remedy this but I want a back up plan in case it doesn't give me quite the sound I'm looking for. Any amp recommendations? So far I have only tried the Lyr and Mjolnir. The Mjolnir added some aggressiveness that helped, but I really didn't like the overall sound, it just came across as sterile - so I'm guessing tube amps are my thing (I'm brand new to the whole hifi world).
  
 I have both Bifrost and Gungnir DACs. I'm going to sell one at one point but I kept both past the trial period because they both seemed to have different strengths.
  
 I also have an LCD-X I'm trying out which added more bass punch which I liked but still didn't quite get the distorted guitar sound where I want it.
  
 I listen to other genres but this is the priority for me in getting the sound I want. To be a bit more specific about what kind of music I mean, think Queens of the Stone Age rock-wise and Immortal, Enslaved, Emperor, etc. metal-wise. Throw in Weezer too somewhere in the mix. Even though they're basically pop-rock (not a dig in any way) they have a lot of "heavy" power-chording on their earlier albums, and the "bite" or lack thereof is very noticeable.
  
 Budget is up to $3K-ish if I find something perfect. Though I'd like to spend less if possible . My "comfortable" budget is $1-2K. Ideally something that I can get shipped to me quickly so that I can return it if needed before my window on trying out the LCD-2 fazored and LCD-X run out (I bought the rev 2 used so I have that as long as needed) I'm in South Carolina, USA.


----------



## jodgey4

I'd look into Hifiman offerings, Audeze is probably just not your ideal sound. The X + Mjolnir was probably your best bet for bite and crunch afaik.


----------



## blackcatSVK

Is there anyone using MapleTree Ear+ HD to fit with LCD-2?
 How do you think about this amp?


----------



## diamondears

noxnoctum said:


> So I've got a pair of LCD-2 rev.2s, as well as a new fazored rev. 3 version. My situation is this: I love the overall tone, but I *need* more grit/bite/crunch in the sound of distorted electric guitars. With some exceptions on specific recordings, the guitar tone just sounds too laid back/polite. Someone from the Lyr tube rolling thread is shipping some tubes that are supposed to remedy this but I want a back up plan in case it doesn't give me quite the sound I'm looking for. Any amp recommendations? So far I have only tried the Lyr and Mjolnir. The Mjolnir added some aggressiveness that helped, but I really didn't like the overall sound, it just came across as sterile - so I'm guessing tube amps are my thing (I'm brand new to the whole hifi world).
> 
> I have both Bifrost and Gungnir DACs. I'm going to sell one at one point but I kept both past the trial period because they both seemed to have different strengths.
> 
> ...



Try the iFi micro iDSD, its a DAC+amp integrated portable/battery powered. It has 3 digital filters, one brighter than each other. And it has bass boost, and 3D boost that adds some treble for better imaging/3D/holographic sound. Sounds amazing on the LCD-2.2, though I myself prefer both the XBass and 3D turned off. It's $500. There's an upcoming desktop version that would sell for around $1,500 IIRC that I'm waiting for.


----------



## Justin_Time

blackcatsvk said:


> Is there anyone using MapleTree Ear+ HD to fit with LCD-2?
> 
> How do you think about this amp?




Bad pairing.

Use the Mad Ear with the Grados and HD800. Great sound.

Not so much with the LCD2/2.2/3: in-your-face midrange, limited treble (very dark sound with no sparkle), weak and loose bass.

For the LCD2.2, get a SS amp like the Schiit Mjolnir, the Burson Soloit or the Oppo HA-1.


----------



## Amish

Bryston BHA-1. Done deal after that. Best amp to pair with this can IMO. I've heard a lot too.


----------



## NoxNoctum

I highly recommend the Lyr with Russian '74 6n23p SWGP tubes for anyone listening to lots of hard rock and/or metal. Those tubes added a ton of crunch to the sound and fixed all my issues with the LCD2 sounding too laid back. Blew away the Mjolnir in terms of guitar bite.
  
 Go the Lyr tube thread to see more about these tubes, a bunch of people over there are raving about them (including yours truly now)


----------



## Justin_Time

amish said:


> Bryston BHA-1. Done deal after that. Best amp to pair with this can IMO. I've heard a lot too.


 
 Bryston is a smooth sounding amp.  This fellow is looking for more more "grit/bite/crunch in the sound of distorted electric guitars." 
  
 I am afraid the Bryston is the wrong amp for him as it can't deliver that; it is a rather polite sounding amp, a very nice amp mind you, but definitely not his cup of tea (espresso?).


----------



## DeadEars

blackcatsvk said:


> Is there anyone using MapleTree Ear+ HD to fit with LCD-2?
> How do you think about this amp?


 

 That would be me.  If you like intimate recordings (girl with piano, jazz quartets, chamber music) then it works pretty well.  Forget it for rock or big orchestral recordings, or EDM or grunge.  I use mine at work and listen at low level, so it is nearly perfect for my needs.  I did end up modding my EAR to pump up the juice a bit and get rid of the electrolytics in the output path.  I'm very happy with the results.
  
 As others have said, the MAD amps are an ideal match with many Grado's.  When I want to rock out, those are the cans I reach for.
  
 Best of luck in your search!


----------



## blackcatSVK

deadears said:


> That would be me.  If you like intimate recordings (girl with piano, jazz quartets, chamber music) then it works pretty well.  Forget it for rock or big orchestral recordings, or EDM or grunge.  I use mine at work and listen at low level, so it is nearly perfect for my needs.  I did end up modding my EAR to pump up the juice a bit and get rid of the electrolytics in the output path.  I'm very happy with the results.
> 
> As others have said, the MAD amps are an ideal match with many Grado's.  When I want to rock out, those are the cans I reach for.
> 
> Best of luck in your search!


 
  
 Grado HF-2 is ok for this amp? Good for rock and instrumental?
 My preference music is acoustic and country, do you think LCD-2 will good for this?


----------



## sling5s

For those with LCD-2F (Fazor Version).  The Vali is really good. The Vali will give you 95% of the Lyr 2 with the top of the line Voskhod/Reflector tubes.


----------



## DeadEars

blackcatsvk said:


> Grado HF-2 is ok for this amp? Good for rock and instrumental?
> My preference music is acoustic and country, do you think LCD-2 will good for this?


 

 I've heard half a dozen different Grados with the MAD amp.  I generally have a problem with Grado comfort, so I rarely listen to mine.  When I do, I tend to crank up the volume and that gets me in trouble at work   They do rock out!  With the LCD-2's the bass gets a bit flabby when the volume goes up, but the midrange is to-die-for.
  
 Some original RS-1's were about the best I've heard although the PS-1000's were really good too.  Even RS225's were darn nice.  From what I remember, the the HF-2 is less peaky than the RS1 or my current RS1i.  I would think it is probably a good match, but I've never heard it. 
  
  
 Hope this helps.


----------



## BTD III

Would that desktop version be called the iDSD Pro? Do you know any specifics about this unit? Heard only that it was coming out ~ May/June. Any links available?? Thanks for any help.


----------



## diamondears

btd iii said:


> Would that desktop version be called the iDSD Pro? Do you know any specifics about this unit? Heard only that it was coming out ~ May/June. Any links available?? Thanks for any help.



Yes, I think that's the plan now. Previously the plan is mini iDSD (to differentiate from nano iDSD and micro iDSD).


----------



## blackcatSVK

deadears said:


> I've heard half a dozen different Grados with the MAD amp.  I generally have a problem with Grado comfort, so I rarely listen to mine.  When I do, I tend to crank up the volume and that gets me in trouble at work   They do rock out!  With the LCD-2's the bass gets a bit flabby when the volume goes up, but the midrange is to-die-for.
> 
> Some original RS-1's were about the best I've heard although the PS-1000's were really good too.  Even RS225's were darn nice.  From what I remember, the the HF-2 is less peaky than the RS1 or my current RS1i.  I would think it is probably a good match, but I've never heard it.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Nice reply. Thanks mate.
 This will help me a lot, I think I'm gonna keep my HF-2 or change to RS-1 and saving more money for LCD-2 later


----------



## Amish

justin_time said:


> Bryston is a smooth sounding amp.  This fellow is looking for more more "grit/bite/crunch in the sound of distorted electric guitars."
> 
> I am afraid the Bryston is the wrong amp for him as it can't deliver that; it is a rather polite sounding amp, a very nice amp mind you, but definitely not his cup of tea (espresso?).


 
 I suppose I would have to hear this to know what the heck you are talking about. lol
  
 The Bryston is a very neutral amp. So what the source sends out comes through to the cans. I take it he wants to 'add' color to his music in the form of crunch of an electric guitar?
  
 In any case I wasn't replying to that guy. I was just stopping in to mention that the Bryston is a great amp for the LCD2. In fact i don't even know who you think I was talking to?


----------



## MattTCG

After reading through this thread it seems that the fiio x5 will not drive the lcd2 to sufficient levels. I'd like to get a transportable listening station setup at my recliner. So what suggestions are there to pair with the x5 to be able to enjoy the lcd2? I have the ifi micro idsd on hand already btw. Not looking to spend more than around $100 or so.


----------



## jodgey4

Fiio E12 and Cayin C5 are both portable powerhouses, the C5 has better staging and detail, but is more expensive. Haven't heard either, but they come well recommended from two trusted sources who have both.


----------



## MattTCG

^^ Thanks!! Those were both coming up regularly during searches. Looking into them now.


----------



## x RELIC x

+1 on the X5/e12 combo. Definately has enough authority for the LCD-2.


----------



## Madeupword

How's LH Labs Geek Out 450 and 1000 with LCD2 with fazor?
  
 Pardon me, not trying to spam, merely trying to widen the search and result.


----------



## Amish

I used to own the E12 and can confirm it powers the LCD2 good enough. Not good enough for me but it works.


----------



## DivergeUnify

diamondears said:


> Assuming the BHA-1 sounds exactly like the O2, which it's designer claims it is in a double blind test he did IIRC, Audiolab 8200CD/CDQ/M-DAC. Its multiple digital filters are just amazing. The best non-digitally (aka analogue) sounding digital filters I've heard and studied. If you want digitally, it has that too. What more can you ask for? The DAC chip, the power supply, the implementation, the CD player, the digital inputs, balanced design, the preamp function, it's a complete package. It's only critique is it has no DSD atm. YMMV though, but that's my honest advise.


can you please explain to me how these filters work?


----------



## jodgey4

You'd have to look up the filters individually, they all serve different purposes. There's issues of pre and post ringing, different level frequency cutoffs....... until we get perfect filters, analog will always have an advantage in this sense. There might be a YouTube video with a few good examples, if I run across one I'll post it here or PM you with it.


----------



## diamondears

divergeunify said:


> can you please explain to me how these filters work?



+1 on what jodgey4 said, that's basically it. 

You can go to Audiolab's website and download the manual, which explains in more detail how all the filters work. The Optimal Transient filters are as analogue-like as they can be to my ears. And the CD player is excellent as well. The Minimum Phase filter is the one claimed by Audiolab to be most analogue-like though. 

I think it has all the popular filters out there.


----------



## diamondears

diamondears said:


> +1 on what jodgey4 said, that's basically it.
> 
> You can go to Audiolab's website and download the manual, which explains in more detail how all the filters work. The Optimal Transient filters are as analogue-like as they can be to my ears. And the CD player is excellent as well. The Minimum Phase filter is the one claimed by Audiolab to be most analogue-like though.
> 
> I think it has all the popular filters out there.



Oh, to add, there's also the issue of timing/phase delay, meaning some frequencies gets delayed or advanced a bit in terms of timing. This is usually the trade off for removing the pre-ringing that occurs (pre-ringing is the culprit on that digitally sounding sound). So, conversely, pre-ringing is the trade off for perfect timing/phase. 

Some are saying these pre-ringing and timing/phase delays are not discernible to one's ears---I disagree, I hear it.


----------



## diamondears

Minimum Phase is my favorite, and iMHO is the best compromise of all. It doesn't have pre-ringing, which doesn't exist on all music recordings and live music, but has slight timing phase delays, which actually exists in real music especially live music (musicians are never perfect you know, plus it makes the music more jazzy ). And this delays are really very slight, the pre-ringings aren't, so good choice here. The remaining post-ringing I think really helps on soundstaging. Come to think of it, there's post-ringings on real music---the echoes and whistles. There's a white paper somewhere re this Minimum Phase filter. I think it's spot on.


----------



## DivergeUnify

jodgey4 said:


> You'd have to look up the filters individually, they all serve different purposes. There's issues of pre and post ringing, different level frequency cutoffs....... until we get perfect filters, analog will always have an advantage in this sense. There might be a YouTube video with a few good examples, if I run across one I'll post it here or PM you with it.


thanks for the response. I would also appreciate the pm, if you happen to remember!


----------



## shadowspine

Hi,
 I have a Heir Audio Rendition 1 amp. Is this enough to power the LCD-2?
  
 Ive heard it amps the HD650 very well.
 Thanks


----------



## a-mal

Hows the Schiit Asgard for these headphones? I understand the Lyr is great for it.


----------



## sludgeogre

a-mal said:


> Hows the Schiit Asgard for these headphones? I understand the Lyr is great for it.


 
 I use my Asgard 2 with my LCD-2 every day and I love it.


----------



## Lohb

Hearing the Beresford Caiman Mk2 is superb with LCD 2.2F from one member....the internal amp stage more than enough to power it vs the older Bushmaster Mk2 which could not power planars on its own.
  
 The price is a steal considering it's a DAC/amp combo.....powered off battery and many aspects bump up a level again. The designer has just released a new firmware for it which improves the bar again.
 Depth/width imaging/natural SQ presentation are supposed to be its main strength...
  
 EDIT: There may be volume pot issues with the very easy to drive F version LCD-2.. as in the pot is too sensitive from 7-9 a.m position....


----------



## madwolfa

a-mal said:


> Hows the Schiit Asgard for these headphones? I understand the Lyr is great for it.


 
  
 Asgard is just fine.


----------



## diamondears

madwolfa said:


> Asgard is just fine.



That's Schiit. O2 is great.


----------



## porridgecup

Currently using a Magni/Modi with a pre-Fazor LCD 2.2. Planning on upgrading both amp and DAC soon.
  
 How do the Lyr 2 and the Mjolnir sound with the LCD 2 compared to the Magni? Brighter, less bright?
  
 Also, what are some of the more noticeable sound differences between the Schiit amps and the Burson Conductor/Soloist with the LCD 2?


----------



## aqsw

I was very happy with my setup for years. Lyr and Bifrost. I bought an Oppo Ha-1 because I
I wanted to go balanced. I only received it yesterday, but I can't get the 2.2s off my head. This is one great unit with
the 2.2s


----------



## korzena

aqsw said:


> I was very happy with my setup for years. Lyr and Bifrost. I bought an Oppo Ha-1 because I
> I wanted to go balanced. I only received it yesterday, but I can't get the 2.2s off my head. This is one great unit with
> the 2.2s


 
 Oppo Ha-1 sounds great also with LCD-X.


----------



## x RELIC x

And balanced to the XC.


----------



## porridgecup

aqsw said:


> I was very happy with my setup for years. Lyr and Bifrost. I bought an Oppo Ha-1 because I
> I wanted to go balanced. I only received it yesterday, but I can't get the 2.2s off my head. This is one great unit with
> the 2.2s


 
  


korzena said:


> Oppo Ha-1 sounds great also with LCD-X.


 
  
 Thanks for the feedback.
  
 Anyone have any input regarding the Bryston BHA-1 vs. the Burson Conductor and how their sound signatures differ with the (pre-Fazor) LCD 2.2 (and LCD 3, if I ever move up)?
  
 And if it helps, I'm a fan of mostly electronic music.


----------



## korzena

porridgecup said:


> Thanks for the feedback.
> 
> Anyone have any input regarding the Bryston BHA-1 vs. the Burson Conductor and how their sound signatures differ with the (pre-Fazor) LCD 2.2 (and LCD 3, if I ever move up)?
> 
> And if it helps, I'm a fan of mostly electronic music.


 
 +1  Very interested in this comparison, too!
 I've heard about the great synergy of BHA-1 as well as Conductor with LCD-2s.
 I listen mostly to EDM, too


----------



## Joong

Krell KSA5 clone


----------



## Zashoomin

joong said:


> Krell KSA5 clone


 
 Quite hard to get a hold of but yes it does sound good.


----------



## LesT73

I cannot comment on the Burson Conductor but I use a Bryston BHA-1 with my (pre-Fazor) LCD 2.2 and it sounds fantastic to my ears.  FWIW I am a keen electronic/house music fan also.


----------



## porridgecup

lest73 said:


> I cannot comment on the Burson Conductor but I use a Bryston BHA-1 with my (pre-Fazor) LCD 2.2 and it sounds fantastic to my ears.  FWIW I am a keen electronic/house music fan also.


 
 I've heard a ton of good things about it for sure.
  
 What DAC are you pairing it with? One big reason I was interested in the Conductor was the combination amp/DAC. Saves a little desk space and just seems more convenient; also saves me the headache and hassle (and possible additional DAC price compared to the Conductor's price) of deciding on the right DAC to buy.
  
  
 Also, I read a few comments that the BHA-1 is a little on the bright side. I know that probably won't be an issue with the LCD 2 since it's so dark by default, but I feel like that might limit my options if I decide to pick up the HD800 some day. I'd prefer to get one top tier amp and one top tier DAC and use them for many years if possible, without buying their competitors.
  
 For reference, my current setup is Schiit Magni/Modi (1, not 2) with the Beyer DT880. That combo is considerably too bright for me, so I have it pretty heavily equalized to boost the lower ranges and decrease the higher ranges. My EQ is roughly +4.7 dB for lows and -5.5 dB for highs, if that helps show just how bright I feel the combo is out of the box.
  
 I'm still waiting for my LCD 2 to come in, and I'm not sure I even want to plug it into my Magni because I suspect it'll heavily skew my perception both due to it being too bright for my tastes and too low-end for Audeze cans.


----------



## LesT73

I use it either with a bel canto DAC 3.5 or my oppo bdp 95eu. I also use it with AKG 550 and it also sounds great. In fact, it made these sound more balanced than with the Lehmann Linear that I used to own. Certainly doesn't sound too bright to me. Sorry, I have not had a chance to hear the kit you listed.


----------



## Rayoki

porridgecup said:


> I'm still waiting for my LCD 2 to come in, and I'm not sure I even want to plug it into my Magni because I suspect it'll heavily skew my perception both due to it being too bright for my tastes and too low-end for Audeze cans.


 
 Just plug it in, the headphones will sound great and you will be able to appreciate the upgrade when you eventually do it.


----------



## sludgeogre

porridgecup said:


> I'm still waiting for my LCD 2 to come in, and I'm not sure I even want to plug it into my Magni because I suspect it'll heavily skew my perception both due to it being too bright for my tastes and too low-end for Audeze cans.


 
 I've spent many hours listening to my LCD-2 through the Magni and they certainly play very well together. The brightness is largely tamed by the LCD-2 and the sound is super detailed and sweet.


----------



## porridgecup

Thanks, I'll certainly give it a fair try in that case.


----------



## Lohb

Waiting on some ADA4637-1BRZ opamps to roll into the underdog portable CAYIN C5 amp which powers my hard to drive 2.1's just fine at volume position 5/6 as a point of reference.
 Low-end quality and heft/control supposed to get better vs stock opamp. Cheap upgrade - $20 + shipping.
  


audioman2013 said:


> So I ordered new op amps for this amp and made it sound fantastic - very smooth, detailed highs, tight bass with good quantity, and a bit of liquid 3d sound. I am using 2 ADA4637-1BRZ op amps and they sound fantastic.  The ad8597 and the original TI OPA ones were a no go for my ears.


----------



## korzena

Chord Hugo has been getting so much praise in the recent months that I really got interested.
 In this thread I couldn't find too many impressions of LCD-2 with Hugo (as a DAC/amp or just as a DAC).
 My current setup of is Bifrost Uber > Lyr > LCD-2.2. I feel there is still quite a lot of potential of LCDs to be uncovered with a better source and amp. I wonder how big upgrade Hugo would be for my LCD-2s and if it is worth the price or there are better options at the price or below. I am looking for a desktop solution, although portable would work fine, too, if it is really worth it.
  
 So how is LCD-2 with Chord Hugo?


----------



## jodgey4

I've heard numerous times that it's a bad pairing - too thin. What you have is probably better.


----------



## diamondears

korzena said:


> Chord Hugo has been getting so much praise in the recent months that I really got interested.
> In this thread I couldn't find too many impressions of LCD-2 with Hugo (as a DAC/amp or just as a DAC).
> My current setup of is Bifrost Uber > Lyr > LCD-2.2. I feel there is still quite a lot of potential of LCDs to be uncovered with a better source and amp. I wonder how big upgrade Hugo would be for my LCD-2s and if it is worth the price or there are better options at the price or below. I am looking for a desktop solution, although portable would work fine, too, if it is really worth it.
> 
> So how is LCD-2 with Chord Hugo?



Have you tried the LCD-2 with the iFi micro iDSD? If you can compare it with the Hugo, please let me know, in this thread or thru PM. Hugely interested on that.


----------



## korzena

diamondears said:


> Have you tried the LCD-2 with the iFi micro iDSD? If you can compare it with the Hugo, please let me know, in this thread or thru PM. Hugely interested on that.


 
 Unfortunately, I haven't had a chance yet. If I manage to listen to iFi and/or Hugo, I will remember to report. 
  
 Maybe someone else already had a chance to listen to them and could share some impressions?


----------



## porridgecup

sludgeogre said:


> I've spent many hours listening to my LCD-2 through the Magni and they certainly play very well together. The brightness is largely tamed by the LCD-2 and the sound is super detailed and sweet.


 
 Just want to update: my LCD-2s came in and I'm listening to them right now through the Magni/Modi. You were right, it sounds absolutely fantastic. This is way better than anything I've ever listened to in the past. I can only wonder how they'll sound once I upgrade to a top tier amp/DAC.
  
 Out of curiosity, how many adjustment notches (not sure there's a better word for that... the little metal bar that lets you raise or lower each can) do you all use when wearing the headphones? I'm still trying to find the best adjustment for my own head. They actually fit comfortably at several different positions, but I'm noticing changes in sound signature at the different elevations (as with all headphones, I suppose), so I'm wondering what other people tend to use. Obviously it'll vary based on head shape and size, but I'm still curious.
  
 Also, do you generally try to keep the headband at the center of the top of your head, or the back of your head, or elsewhere?


----------



## Rayoki

porridgecup said:


> Just want to update: my LCD-2s came in and I'm listening to them right now through the Magni/Modi. You were right, it sounds absolutely fantastic. I can only wonder how they'll sound once I upgrade to a top tier amp/DAC.
> 
> Out of curiosity, how many adjustment notches (not sure there's a better word for that... the little metal bar that lets you raise or lower each can) do you all use when wearing the headphones? I'm still trying to find the best adjustment for my own head. They actually fit comfortably at several different positions, but I'm noticing changes in sound signature at the different elevations, so I'm wondering what other people tend to use. Obviously it'll be vary based on head shape, but I'm still curious.


 
 My LCD's came with http://www.ebay.com/itm/181620833688?_trksid=p2060778.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
  
 so I use the last extender to give myself a ton of room (I have a relatively large head).
  
  
 I recommend you listen to the headphones for a bit before settling on an amp. alternatively, you can buy from a place with a return policy so that you can A/B amps (my recommendation is to check out the LYR+ some tubes or the Gustard H10)


----------



## jodgey4

I slide the headphones back on my head, so the front of the pad is basically against my ear, so it has to be real close to centered on my ears at 2 notches. Works well for me, looks better that way too .


----------



## a-widodo

For me personally, hugo + lcd2 r2 pairing is not that bad. To my ears, it is not thin, but the impact is not as strong as when we add better amps. Just my personal experience though.


----------



## sludgeogre

porridgecup said:


> Just want to update: my LCD-2s came in and I'm listening to them right now through the Magni/Modi. You were right, it sounds absolutely fantastic. This is way better than anything I've ever listened to in the past. I can only wonder how they'll sound once I upgrade to a top tier amp/DAC.
> 
> Out of curiosity, how many adjustment notches (not sure there's a better word for that... the little metal bar that lets you raise or lower each can) do you all use when wearing the headphones? I'm still trying to find the best adjustment for my own head. They actually fit comfortably at several different positions, but I'm noticing changes in sound signature at the different elevations (as with all headphones, I suppose), so I'm wondering what other people tend to use. Obviously it'll vary based on head shape and size, but I'm still curious.
> 
> Also, do you generally try to keep the headband at the center of the top of your head, or the back of your head, or elsewhere?


 
 Glad you like the combo! I know I love it.
  
 I have a rather massive head, so I wear mine on the second to last position on the gimbals. I've found that they need to sit with the band on the exact top of my head or else it starts to hurt after a few minutes.


----------



## porridgecup

sludgeogre said:


> Glad you like the combo! I know I love it.
> 
> I have a rather massive head, so I wear mine on the second to last position on the gimbals. I've found that they need to sit with the band on the exact top of my head or else it starts to hurt after a few minutes.


 
  
 I have a quite small head, so I've been shifting between the 2nd and 3rd positions on the gimbals. Still deciding which is best.
  
 Regarding an amp to upgrade to: I'm still unsure which direction I should go in. I'm pretty sure I am sensitive to treble and brightness (I'm pretty young, under 24, which might play a role). The Magni/Modi with my DT-880s sounded way too bright to me, but they sound perfect with the (pre-Fazor) LCD-2s, with no instances of harsh treble at all.
  
 I assume if I upgrade to the Bryston BHA-1, I'll also very likely enjoy them a lot with the LCD-2s. However, I do plan on buying other headphones some day, and I'd like to not have to buy a new amp for the new headphones if I can help it. Based on numerous reviews of the BHA-1 with other headphones, I fear the BHA-1 in combination with some cans that aren't as dark as the LCD-2 could very likely be too harsh for me, so I'm trying to find a middleground solid state amp which will sound really good with the LCD-2s but still be acceptable for LCD-3Fs or even maybe the HD 800.
  
 Anyone have any recommendations? It's probably going to be between either the Mjolnir, Soloist, or possibly one of the Violectric ones. Auralic Taurus seems interesting too. I'm open to anything under $2000 though.


----------



## new482

I'm using Violectric V200 + Resonessence Labs Concero HD as a DAC with LCD 2F. I think the soloist is too warm for LCD2.
 Under $2000, if you have budget, I would recommend to go for Violectric V281 since V200 is matched with Audeze and HD800 in my opinion. It also depends on your DAC. I'm using the Concero HD that using ESS9018-2M Dac chip, very very superb implementation.
  
 The Mjolnir is a great amp but it's quite aggressive IMO.

 So good luck for your selection and happy listening.


----------



## diamondears

porridgecup said:


> I have a quite small head, so I've been shifting between the 2nd and 3rd positions on the gimbals. Still deciding which is best.
> 
> Regarding an amp to upgrade to: I'm still unsure which direction I should go in. I'm pretty sure I am sensitive to treble and brightness (I'm pretty young, under 24, which might play a role). The Magni/Modi with my DT-880s sounded way too bright to me, but they sound perfect with the (pre-Fazor) LCD-2s, with no instances of harsh treble at all.
> 
> ...



The iFi gears, for that money I'll check out the iFi Retro 50, which I haven't heard, but the LCD-2F (had it for 1 month) sounded wonderful on the iFi nano iDSD.


----------



## Acquire

So, anyone have any quick input on the Grace Design m920 or SPL Phonitor 2?  My current setup is an Asus Essence STX as my DAC with a Schiit Lyr as my amp.  I'm interested in getting a good amp that has built in crossfeed support.  I love the options of the Phonitor 2, but I like how the Grace is a DAC/AMP combo, is cheaper, and I can order from HeadRoom and return if I choose I don't like it.


----------



## AN94Master

How does the LCD 2 pair up with the Lyr 2? I'm planning to use this combo with my x5(I listen to rock,electronic, edm,rap and classical, also like a deep thundering bass performance).I currently have the e12+momentum, bass is very good on these for me


----------



## jodgey4

The Lyr was practically designed for the LCD-2's. There's no bass boost like the E12 offers (idk if you're using that), but you could roll tubes I'm sure to get something you like.


----------



## Amish

porridgecup said:


> I assume if I upgrade to the Bryston BHA-1, I'll also very likely enjoy them a lot with the LCD-2s. However, I do plan on buying other headphones some day, and I'd like to not have to buy a new amp for the new headphones if I can help it. Based on numerous reviews of the BHA-1 with other headphones, I fear the BHA-1 in combination with some cans that aren't as dark as the LCD-2 could very likely be too harsh for me, so I'm trying to find a middle ground solid state amp which will sound really good with the LCD-2s but still be acceptable for LCD-3Fs or even maybe the HD 800.


 
  
 I'll chime in. I own the BHA-1 and can say without a doubt it works very well with Grado cans (which tend to be on the bright side. Which is why I bring this up. As I have heard from others that they love this amp with the HD800). In fact the BHA-1 gave my Grado 325's new life. They sound amazing with this amp. In fact every headphone I have plugged into it sounds awesome. But my LCD-2 R2 seem as if they were made just for the BHA-1. Simply amazing.
  
 The only thing about the BHA-1 you should know if you don't already is it is best to use a balanced cable with this amp. Makes quite a big difference. Even if you are only feeding the amp with a SE source.


----------



## porridgecup

amish said:


> I'll chime in. I own the BHA-1 and can say without a doubt it works very well with Grado cans (which tend to be on the bright side. Which is why I bring this up. As I have heard from others that they love this amp with the HD800). In fact the BHA-1 gave my Grado 325's new life. They sound amazing with this amp. In fact every headphone I have plugged into it sounds awesome. But my LCD-2 R2 seem as if they were made just for the BHA-1. Simply amazing.
> 
> The only thing about the BHA-1 you should know if you don't already is it is best to use a balanced cable with this amp. Makes quite a big difference. Even if you are only feeding the amp with a SE source.


 
  
 I have definitely read the reviews of the BHA-1, and it's certainly tempting. I know it's a great amp. But I also read many complaints about sizzling treble when in use with bright headphones.
  
 Of course, I do have the option of EQing some of the treble down, but it would feel kind of wrong to spend well over $2000 on, say, the HD 800, BHA-1, and some DAC, and then artificially neuter it. I do obviously want to optimize my listening experience with the LCD-2, but amps are pricey enough that I don't want to buy this now and then have to go and throw down another $1000-2000 on another amp while also spending $1000-2000 on another pair of headphones.
  
 I am willing to give it a shot; it might be a long time before I buy a different pair of headphones. It's also quite possible the HD 800 is simply not for me (though I have not auditioned it yet, so can't be sure) and should be avoided.
  
 What balanced DAC would you recommend with the BHA-1, preferably under $1500 (and honestly, preferably a lot cheaper than that even, but I'll spend that much if necessary)?


----------



## Arnotts

porridgecup said:


> I have definitely read the reviews of the BHA-1, and it's certainly tempting. I know it's a great amp. But I also read many complaints about sizzling treble when in use with bright headphones.
> 
> Of course, I do have the option of EQing some of the treble down, but it would feel kind of wrong to spend well over $2000 on, say, the HD 800, BHA-1, and some DAC, and then artificially neuter it. I do obviously want to optimize my listening experience with the LCD-2, but amps are pricey enough that I don't want to buy this now and then have to go and throw down another $1000-2000 on another amp while also spending $1000-2000 on another pair of headphones.
> 
> ...


 
 Look at the Gustard H10 - it's been compared favourably to amps that cost many times its price, including the V200.


----------



## AN94Master

How is the LCD2 with the Lyr 2? How does the bass come out?


----------



## Fernando Pancho

Have you considered the Capella? In the Beresford thread some people own the LCD-2 and say it sounds fabulous with the Capella. I myself cannot afford the LCD-2 but the bass on the Capella is terrific. You can even adjust it for best performance. I think all headphone amp should have such a control so that all headphones can perform to their best.


----------



## Amish

porridgecup said:


> What balanced DAC would you recommend with the BHA-1, preferably under $1500 (and honestly, preferably a lot cheaper than that even, but I'll spend that much if necessary)?


 
  
 I'm the wrong guy to ask this question. I have a pretty good DAC but it is not balanced. I would love to have a balanced DAC but I love my Pagoda so much I just can't stand the thought of pushing it to the side.
  
 That said; using a balanced headphone cable is what is needed for sure. I use a 4-pin jobbie instead of the dual 3-pin cables.


----------



## Joong

Krell ksa5 clone is very good match to LCD-2.2.
SMSL dac M8 is very good economical solution for the phones.
Chinese presence is strong in this auiophile world.
Let these cheap amp and dac pair run your phones.
The prices are many times less than you expect.


----------



## aqsw

An old schitter here. , but you have to try the Oppo Ha1. A swiss army knife of headphone amps. Built like a tank, and WOW, does it ever sound good with my LCD 2.2 pre fazor. 
It really is that good!


----------



## x RELIC x

+1 ^^^^^


----------



## pippen99

Anyone here attend Canjam Socal and listen to the Cavalli Liquid Carbon.  It goes on sale for a limited production run tomorrow at $599.  It's rated at 1500 Mw output.  Will that drive the lcd-2f adequately?


----------



## madwolfa

pippen99 said:


> Anyone here attend Canjam Socal and listen to the Cavalli Liquid Carbon.  It goes on sale for a limited production run tomorrow at $599.  It's rated at 1500 Mw output.  Will that drive the lcd-2f adequately?


 
  
 I drive LCD-2F from Schiit Asgard 2, which is rated at 1000mW output. It has tons of power to spare even on low gain.


----------



## diamondears

porridgecup said:


> I have definitely read the reviews of the BHA-1, and it's certainly tempting. I know it's a great amp. But I also read many complaints about sizzling treble when in use with bright headphones.
> 
> Of course, I do have the option of EQing some of the treble down, but it would feel kind of wrong to spend well over $2000 on, say, the HD 800, BHA-1, and some DAC, and then artificially neuter it. I do obviously want to optimize my listening experience with the LCD-2, but amps are pricey enough that I don't want to buy this now and then have to go and throw down another $1000-2000 on another amp while also spending $1000-2000 on another pair of headphones.
> 
> ...


Audiolab.


----------



## Lohb

pippen99 said:


> Anyone here attend Canjam Socal and listen to the Cavalli Liquid Carbon.  It goes on sale for a limited production run tomorrow at $599.  It's rated at 1500 Mw output.  Will that drive the lcd-2f adequately?


 

 Triple post, steady there ! Someone will answer if you wait...


----------



## jodgey4

The 2F needs 0.5W+. Older versions need 1W+. That's all according to Audeze, which seems to be a lot of power when you do calculations, but IME, it helps with quiet sources and tracks. So I still think it's a good guideline.


----------



## mrip541

an94master said:


> How is the LCD2 with the Lyr 2? How does the bass come out?


 
  
 I just switched to the Lyr 2 and immediately thought THIS is what I've been missing! LCD-2f is just effortlessly putting out ridiculous bass.


----------



## nayajoeun

@Fernando Pancho
  
 +1 for the Capella.
  
 Have tried the following w/ the LCD2f's:
  
 JDS C5
 O2
 Magni 1
 Cayin C5
 Emotiva Mini-x A-100
 Capella
  
  
 The Capella has been the best performer so far from memory. Very transparent, best bass response of the lot. Love the tweakability, especially in tuning the bass response.


----------



## buson160man

My recommendation in my case is a recapped vintage (circa late seventies) monster receiver. I purchased a 16 5 concept receiver that was recapped and it works very well with the LCD-2 v2. This beast weighs in at sixty seven pounds and puts out 165 watts rms per channel into 8 ohm loads. I do not use it with speakers I purchased it to use specifically with headphones. It also works really well with my akg 701 phones.
    I do not know how much  power it pumps out with headphones but it gets much too loud beyond the 9 oclock position of the stepped attenuator on the unit. The sound with my LCD 2 is extremely powerful sounding much more than just about any high powered dedicated headphone amp that includes the cavaliis.
    One downside is that this beast is large and heavy not exactly easy to move around.
  I bought it specifically to use with my headphones but it did sound pretty good with speakers. It was recently recapped when I bought it so the sound has improved since I purchased it with the caps breaking in. I also upgraded the fuses on the back panel to two isoclean 7 amp fuses(one for each channel) obviously this receiver has the ability to put out lots of power .
   I was fortunate to land this unit for just short of a thousand dollars. The prices on some of these old vintage monsters have been rising the last few years.


----------



## Rayoki

mrip541 said:


> I just switched to the Lyr 2 and immediately thought THIS is what I've been missing! LCD-2f is just effortlessly putting out ridiculous bass.


 
 what tubes are you running? if you are running stock then you are in for a pleasant surprise when you pick up a "nicer" pair of tubes.


----------



## MarioD

To the OP - depends on what you're looking for - transparent sound or just entertaining sound. Regardless, here are my 2 cents... LCD-2F (no experience with pre-fazor) is not as great as its price tag suggests. As you improve your rig over time, you will reach the LCD-2 limit very quickly. If you have already spent the cash on the phones and you're rather looking for an entertaining sound, here's a funny suggestion - buy an Asus Xonar U7, buy a long high quality USB cable, wind it 5-6 times around a ferrite core and plug it into your computer. The sound you'll get for a hundred bucks will be about 60-70% of what you'll get from a 10K+ system with these particular headphones. IMHO I would not invest loads of money into a rig around the LCD-2. It doesn't exactly live up to the hype, but you will never know that unless your source, converter and amp are all hi end.
  
 PS: The X and 3 are a whole different story.
  
 Regards,
 Mario


----------



## LancerFIN

mariod said:


> To the OP - depends on what you're looking for - transparent sound or just entertaining sound. Regardless, here are my 2 cents... LCD-2F (no experience with pre-fazor) is not as great as its price tag suggests. As you improve your rig over time, you will reach the LCD-2 limit very quickly. If you have already spent the cash on the phones and you're rather looking for an entertaining sound, here's a funny suggestion - buy an Asus Xonar U7, buy a long high quality USB cable, wind it 5-6 times around a ferrite core and plug it into your computer. The sound you'll get for a hundred bucks will be about 60-70% of what you'll get from a 10K+ system with these particular headphones. IMHO I would not invest loads of money into a rig around the LCD-2. It doesn't exactly live up to the hype, but you will never know that unless your source, converter and amp are all hi end.
> 
> PS: The X and 3 are a whole different story.
> 
> ...


 

 What amps have you head with the LCD-2F? But yeah if you want treble cannon that's not where LCD-2F shines. HE-560, LCD-X and LCD-3 all have better treble whereas LCD-2F beats them all in bass. LCD-2 pre-fazor is again on another level in bass department but with expense of lacking even more treble than LCD-2F.
  
 To me LCD-2 is worth every penny. Better than any dynamic I have heard. Sennheisers aren't any fun.


----------



## Lohb

lancerfin said:


> What amps have you head with the LCD-2F? But yeah if you want treble cannon that's not where LCD-2F shines. HE-560, LCD-X and LCD-3 all have better treble whereas LCD-2F beats them all in bass. LCD-2 pre-fazor is again on another level in bass department but with expense of lacking even more treble than LCD-2F.
> 
> To me LCD-2 is worth every penny. Better than any dynamic I have heard. Sennheisers aren't any fun.


 

 Really, I thought X beats out all the LCD-2 revisions on the low-end ?
  
 Edit: but there are multiple aspects to that low-end , and I'm sure they both win on various aspects.. so not so clear-cut.


----------



## jodgey4

I found the 2.2 to have a drier, more textured response that was deeper. The X was crispier and tighter, but lacked some of the depth and smoothness. All Audeze LCD cans have _amazing_ bass, and one could easily prefer the presentation of one can over another.


----------



## MarioD

lancerfin said:


> What amps have you head with the LCD-2F? But yeah if you want treble cannon that's not where LCD-2F shines. HE-560, LCD-X and LCD-3 all have better treble whereas LCD-2F beats them all in bass. LCD-2 pre-fazor is again on another level in bass department but with expense of lacking even more treble than LCD-2F.
> 
> To me LCD-2 is worth every penny. Better than any dynamic I have heard. Sennheisers aren't any fun.


 
 To be fair, I haven't tried the LCD-2F with any amsp from the mainstream.  That said, I've listened to them extensively on numerous platforms, starting with different off-the shelf DACs (reasonably priced) and going into custom built tube implementations of TDA1541,PCM63 (K-grade) and PCM58 that I currently use. Amping  ranged from simple opamp and mosfet solutions to ones based around custom built 6N1P, 6N6P, 6N5C implementations and my current amp which relies on a heavily customized GU50 build. Output transformers for all of the rigs where custom wound to accommodate my headphones, while aimed at achieving my personal audio reproduction goals, which revolve around transparency and clarity above all else.
  
 After countless customizations and rig swaps the headphones did not deliver what I personally expected. That's the main reason why I don't fancy the LCD-2F as much as it's bigger brothers from Audeze.
  
 Having said that, what set-up do you think would allow them to deliver their full potential?
  
 Sennheisers can be fun too!  When I first bought HD800 I was a little bit frustrated with the sound. However, with a tube amp and the right set of output transformers it can be both analytical and fun!  It's a very elegant sounding headphone with unmatched imaging capabilities.


----------



## LancerFIN

mariod said:


> Having said that, what set-up do you think would allow them to deliver their full potential?


 
 As far as I know something like Burson Conductor or Bryston BHA-1 from high end stuff. From "money is no object" category I have no idea.


----------



## x RELIC x

mariod said:


> ............................
> 
> Having said that, what set-up do you think would allow them to deliver their full potential?
> 
> ..........................




ALO Studio Six would sound amazing with the LCD-2F!

With that said they will never reach the level of their bigger brothers.


----------



## MRC001

mariod said:


> ... That's the main reason why I don't fancy the LCD-2F as much as it's bigger brothers from Audeze.
> Having said that, what set-up do you think would allow them to deliver their full potential?


 
 The LCD-2F is easy to drive - purely resistive, good efficiency and impedance that is not too high or too low - so achieving its potential is more about amp quality than power output. And quality is subjective - everyone's HRTF is a bit different, tastes are different, and individual recordings are FAR more different sounding than good solid state amps.
  
 However, because the LCD-2F is so easy to drive, it should be easy to find an amp that can deliver their full potential. I'm using a Meier Corda Jazz and it's totally excellent. I've listened to more expensive amps but see no need to get one. Most well designed solid state amps built with high quality components will do the job nicely with the LCD-2F.
  
 But this depends on one's goal. Do you want natural, accurate sound - the most neutral response with the lowest distortion? Or are you looking for interesting/fun/exciting or otherwise euphonic sound?
  
 Well designed and built solid state amps driving loads well within their designed parameters sound so similar, I believe much of the differences people talk about with amps has to do with the recordings they're listening to, or subjective differences in audio perception due to HRTF differences or other causes. Perhaps their favorite most revealing recordings are on the bright (or dark, or crunchy, whatever) side, or perhaps their head is slightly different shape or density, which changes their perception of the sound. So the amp that sounds best for these people may not be the most neutral or transparent, but one that happens to have euphonics that complement these differences.
  
 NOTE: I'm not saying all amps sound the same. Only that the differences between well designed solid state amps are small compared to these other factors. So take amp recommendations - including my own - with that grain of salt.


----------



## MRC001

lancerfin said:


> What amps have you head with the LCD-2F? But yeah if you want treble cannon that's not where LCD-2F shines. HE-560, LCD-X and LCD-3 all have better treble whereas LCD-2F beats them all in bass. ...
> 
> To me LCD-2 is worth every penny. Better than any dynamic I have heard. Sennheisers aren't any fun.


 
 I'm not sure those other cans have "better" treble than the LCD-2F. Depends on what you mean by "better". That depends on the type of music and recording, and subjective preferences. While many folks find the LCD-2F treble to be on the tame side, I find it to be realistically neutral where most other headphones are artificially bright (not necessarily harsh - a headphone can be smooth and natural sounding, yet still too bright). Excessive brightness is in my opinion a common flaw of many high-end audio systems. Also, too many recording engineers slant brighter than reality, to meet euphonic tastes whether their own or the listeners.
  
 What I mean by "too bright" is comparing the sound of a live acoustic musical event (like a chamber music concert) from ideal seating - like 1st row center, 10-15 feet away from the musicians - to the sound of a variety of excellent recordings of the same thing.
  
 Your definition of "too bright" or 'better treble' may be different yet equally valid. These things are subjective.


----------



## Arnotts

lancerfin said:


> What amps have you head with the LCD-2F? But yeah if you want treble cannon that's not where LCD-2F shines. HE-560, LCD-X and LCD-3 all have better treble whereas LCD-2F beats them all in bass. LCD-2 pre-fazor is again on another level in bass department but with expense of lacking even more treble than LCD-2F.
> 
> To me LCD-2 is worth every penny. Better than any dynamic I have heard. Sennheisers aren't any fun.


 

 LCD-2's are good, but they definitely don't have better bass than the X's!


----------



## nayajoeun

According to the freq responses from reviews on the web, I thought so too! 
  
 Completely linear...
  
  
  
 Thanks for confirming!
  
 Can't wait to upgrade someday!
  
  
 EDIT - The X's aren't sibilant at all are they?


----------



## jodgey4

In very rare cases, some users find them sibilant. I find it hard to comprehend, the X's are the most neutral can I've ever heard.


----------



## Arnotts

jodgey4 said:


> In very rare cases, some users find them sibilant. I find it hard to comprehend, the X's are the most neutral can I've ever heard.


 

 Same here. I can imagine some poor synergy in the audio chain bringing some extra treble sharpness, but I do not experience any. I do not even hear sibilance with my HD800's (unless it is really inherent to the source material).
  
 I also think the LCD-X's are the most neutral, natural, true-to-life sounding headphones I've ever heard. To me the X's have excellent detail retrieval, but perform the great balancing act of also being smooth and musical. HD800's are also great, but in a different way... and I consider the LCD-X's to offer an overall better experience in my setup.


----------



## MarioD

@ [u][color=rgb(0, 102, 204)]LancerFIN[/color][/u] & [u][color=rgb(0, 102, 204)]x RELIC x[/color][/u]
  
 Thanks. Brunson Conductor isn't my cup of tea. I'm not sure Bryston BHA-1 would be either.
  
 ALO Studio Six on the other hand looks very interesting. So interesting, I might even take a leap of faith and purchase it to compare with the amps I've got. I wish I could peek inside the box first though 
  
 Guys, don't you think that no matter what amps we use, the source/transport and DAC are somewhat a little more important?  I believe there's an old audiophile saying your rig sounds only as good as your weakest component in the audio chain.
  
 Regards,
 Mario


----------



## MarioD

mrc001 said:


> The LCD-2F is easy to drive - purely resistive, good efficiency and impedance that is not too high or too low - so achieving its potential is more about amp quality than power output. And quality is subjective - everyone's HRTF is a bit different, tastes are different, and individual recordings are FAR more different sounding than good solid state amps.
> 
> However, because the LCD-2F is so easy to drive, it should be easy to find an amp that can deliver their full potential. I'm using a Meier Corda Jazz and it's totally excellent. I've listened to more expensive amps but see no need to get one. Most well designed solid state amps built with high quality components will do the job nicely with the LCD-2F.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I think we've opened Pandora's box with this discussion  To me as an audiophile the rig should be able to deliver transparency and clarity above all. However, the situation is not really black and white. All recordings are mastered differently, especially throughout the years. Some recordings are recorded and mastered outright poorly, think "Exploited"; and punk music in general is a stark example. "Clarity and transparency" all of a sudden become your enemies for that type of music.
  
 All transistors sound similar within their designed parameters, granted. However, swap capacitors and the sounds signature changes a bit. Implementation of the board is key. On top of that the most expensive components don't always sound best. Things get even more complicated with tubes. Different topology = different sound. Change slightly a resistor value and your tube sounds different. What is the right sound? Sometimes it's easy to say this or that setting provides a more accurate reproduction, other times it simply gets a slightly different character but still sounds accurate to my ears. What's the right sound? 
  
 With regards to LCD-2F - to my ears it is a bit muffled on top, which makes it a really nice headphone for bright recordings when paired to mid-fi systems. However, the sound isn't clean. And it's not just the treble. There's not enough air, separation of instruments and depth of the picture. The bigger brothers are significantly better in every respect. And with that said, LCD-2F is still better than the 95% of the headphones out there in the market.
  
 Regards,
 Mario


----------



## nayajoeun

@Arnotts & @jodgey4
  
 Sweet, thanks for that guys.
  
 I found the LCD2f's 10k treble spike a tad painful when I first got them, after a week or so, I just got used to it I guess and don't notice it at all anymore 
  
  
  
  
 Much obliged!


----------



## MarioD

mrc001 said:


> Your definition of "too bright" or 'better treble' may be different yet equally valid. These things are subjective.


 
  
 I wouldn't necessarily agree. "Too bright" relates to tonal balance. "Better treble" relates to the quality of reproduction. A trained "ear" can identify, let's call it, a "sound picture" with better definition.
  
 People with less experience in critical listening, however, are really easy to trick. A few years ago, before I delved into the headphone realm, I asked 2 friends who came around to tell me which setting of my DAC sounded better. They both concluded the brighter setting sounded with more clarity, but what I had really done was just EQ the tonal balance just a tad. Haven't touched the DAC at all.


----------



## MRC001

mariod said:


> All transistors sound similar within their designed parameters, granted.
> ...
> Things get even more complicated with tubes. ... What is the right sound?
> 
> With regards to LCD-2F - to my ears it is a bit muffled on top, which makes it a really nice headphone for bright recordings when paired to mid-fi systems. However, the sound isn't clean. And it's not just the treble. There's not enough air, separation of instruments and depth of the picture. The bigger brothers are significantly better in every respect. And with that said, LCD-2F is still better than the 95% of the headphones out there in the market.


 
 In my opinion, accuracy and tubes do not go together. That tubilicious sound can be wonderful but it is euphonic. Tubes can't match solid state when it comes to neutrality and accuracy.
 We disagree on the LCD-2F. I don't find it muffled on top at all. All the detail is there, it just doesn't jump out and grab you. The big brothers do have a slightly different sound in the treble, and if I hear them side-by-side I understand how some people can prefer the big brothers. But when I compare each against the actual musical event - playing in rehearsal with a violin on one side and cello on the other, or sitting in the first row listening - the LCD-2F is closest to that sound. The big brothers - and many other good high-end headphones - are adding something that sounds like artificial "clarity" or "brightness" to the sound. This is common in high end gear and the LCD-2F was a pleasant surprise to me.
 That's just my subjective impression as an amateur musician, professional engineer and well trained listener. Different people perceive differently, which is what makes these discussions interesting.


----------



## sludgeogre

mrc001 said:


> In my opinion, accuracy and tubes do not go together. That tubilicious sound can be wonderful but it is euphonic. Tubes can't match solid state when it comes to neutrality and accuracy.
> We disagree on the LCD-2F. I don't find it muffled on top at all. All the detail is there, it just doesn't jump out and grab you. The big brothers do have a slightly different sound in the treble, and if I hear them side-by-side I understand how some people can prefer the big brothers. But when I compare each against the actual musical event - playing in rehearsal with a violin on one side and cello on the other, or sitting in the first row listening - the LCD-2F is closest to that sound. The big brothers - and many other good high-end headphones - are adding something that sounds like artificial "clarity" or "brightness" to the sound. This is common in high end gear and the LCD-2F was a pleasant surprise to me.
> That's just my subjective impression as an amateur musician, professional engineer and well trained listener. Different people perceive differently, which is what makes these discussions interesting.


 
 I totally agree with this. I listen mostly to metal and progressive rock and the LCD-2F gives the most honest presentation of both genres in the best possible way. Everything is there, but the tight low end is all present without the high end glossing everything over.


----------



## MRC001

sludgeogre said:


> I totally agree with this. I listen mostly to metal and progressive rock and the LCD-2F gives the most honest presentation of both genres in the best possible way. Everything is there, but the tight low end is all present without the high end glossing everything over.


 

 Here I am extolling the virtues of the LCD-2F for natural acoustic music (including unamplified voice). And you're saying it rocks with heavy metal. That's quite a range and speaks volumes about the neutrality of this headphone.
 P.S. I understand and resemble your comment. I occasionally listen to rock and electronic music. Swans The Seer is one of the albums I use to test equipment. On lesser headphones and speakers it sounds overly gritty, crunchy, harsh and the detail is lost in the noise. It takes a fast, neutral, low distortion transducer to resolve it into something listenable. However, most of the reference recordings I use (and listen to) are natural acoustic music, so midrange quality is the most important aspect of the sound for me. For example, the HiFiMan HE-500 passed the Swans The Seer test, but it didn't pass the acoustic music test because of their recessed midrange.


----------



## burlap

hi all - new LCD-2.2 owner here - love them so far - I've had many cans over the years but I'd been listening to my old senn 580s (!) most lately before grabbing these...  I listen to a lot of electronic music and rock etc and was deeply curious about the bass extension and impact I've heard discussed so often, especially in contrast to the bass-shy senns. I've read 50+ pages of the thread (not the full 500ish) and searched for this particular case, so please bear with me for a sec - 
  
 I'm currently driving them with a McCormack micro integrated drive from the 90s - the extension is great, I'm digging the LCDs a lot but I'm not feeling the "slam" so much... I'm also using the RCA outs from my M-audio audiophile 2496 soundcard, ASIO drivers in foobar2000... 
  
 SO - has anyone heard the LCDs with the mccormack? would I get more bass performance from a better amp and/or DAC? this gear is pretty dated but decently regarded. I think the MID puts out 5w? or perhaps this is a case of heightened expectations? 
  
 would love to hear some opinions before I drop some decent $ on amplification "just to see". I'm intrigued by tubes in the Lyr or the balanced mjolnir, woo audio et al. please advise!


----------



## sludgeogre

burlap said:


> I'm currently driving them with a McCormack micro integrated drive from the 90s - the extension is great, I'm digging the LCDs a lot but I'm not feeling the "slam" so much...
> 
> would love to hear some opinions before I drop some decent $ on amplification "just to see". I'm intrigued by tubes in the Lyr or the balanced mjolnir, woo audio et al. please advise!


 
  
 You probably aren't getting enough power into them. You should be getting at least 500 mW into them, but Audeze recommends 1-4 watts. I'm highly doubting that old headphone amp puts out a lot of juice. You can pick up a Schiit Magni for 100-150 bucks and it'll drive them much better. Of course, there are a loooot of other, better options. Just depends on how much you want to spend. I love anything in the Schiit line. You can't go wrong with any of them, except for the Vali, with the LCD-2. Anything Woo as well.


----------



## Lohb

burlap said:


> hi all - new LCD-2.2 owner here - love them so far - I've had many cans over the years but I'd been listening to my old senn 580s (!) most lately before grabbing these...  I listen to a lot of electronic music and rock etc and was deeply curious about the bass extension and impact I've heard discussed so often, especially in contrast to the bass-shy senns. I've read 50+ pages of the thread (not the full 500ish) and searched for this particular case, so please bear with me for a sec -
> 
> I'm currently driving them with a McCormack micro integrated drive from the 90s - the extension is great, I'm digging the LCDs a lot but I'm not feeling the "slam" so much... I'm also using the RCA outs from my M-audio audiophile 2496 soundcard, ASIO drivers in foobar2000...
> 
> ...


 

 Are they a 'slam can' or 'bottomless bass can' is the question ?!


----------



## Amish

The LCD2 R2: Best bang for the buck period. Brilliant.


----------



## MarioD

mrc001 said:


> In my opinion, accuracy and tubes do not go together. That tubilicious sound can be wonderful but it is euphonic. Tubes can't match solid state when it comes to neutrality and accuracy.
> We disagree on the LCD-2F. I don't find it muffled on top at all. All the detail is there, it just doesn't jump out and grab you. The big brothers do have a slightly different sound in the treble, and if I hear them side-by-side I understand how some people can prefer the big brothers. But when I compare each against the actual musical event - playing in rehearsal with a violin on one side and cello on the other, or sitting in the first row listening - the LCD-2F is closest to that sound. The big brothers - and many other good high-end headphones - are adding something that sounds like artificial "clarity" or "brightness" to the sound. This is common in high end gear and the LCD-2F was a pleasant surprise to me.
> That's just my subjective impression as an amateur musician, professional engineer and well trained listener. Different people perceive differently, which is what makes these discussions interesting.


 
  
 You make some very interesting points, but I can't agree with most of them. I don't want to ignite a flame war, neither we can resolve these arguments we make in a reasonable way, so if you wish just take my input for what it's worth. The statement that transistors sound more natural and accurate is, well, not true. Someone else can make the same statement about transistors, but it won't be completely true either. It all comes down to implementation. To me tubes come with more benefits than shortcomings compared to transistors. I won't delve into this further, as it will turn into a never-ending discussion  Unfortunately great tube amps are rare and most commercially sold tube amps aren't great.
  
 When we refer to accuracy, I think you and I are referring to different things, and I should have picked a different word (English isn't my native language). To me accuracy of a system is its ability to extract the finest detail out of a recording (resolution/definition), and not tonal balance. Tonal balance titled towards the treble indeed creates the artificial sense of more detail and spatial dimension. I think when we talk about naturalness and accuracy, we have to look at the audio chain as a whole - from the transport down to the transducers. The beauty of being a DIY-er for so many years is that I can adjust the sound signature and tonal balance of my system to a great extent. I would bet the origin of your dissatisfaction with the X and 3F is in your audio chain.
  
 When I say LCD-2F is muffled on top, that's indeed my preference and probably due to the components and design of my audio chain. (Though i'm sure it sounds muffled in general, but i won't delve into this  . However, the resolution of the 2F is not even close to the X and 3F. There's an audible distortion across the whole frequency range compared ot the "bigger brothers", it's especially easy to spot it in the treble. The 3F on the other hand sounds much cleaner and transparent, despite the fact it has a very similar, but even darker signature. Test it yourself even with the X, for example - EQ the FR to tilt it towards the bottom end or any way you like. The X will always sound cleaner and more transparent and as a result it will have a better spatial projection of sounds and there's nothing artificial about that.
  
 I think I get your overall point though and I share the same sentiment - every time I visit an audio show I find many systems overly bright and harsh, and these range from tens of thousands of dollars to over a hundred.
  
 Despite all I said so far, listen to an audio system that you truly enjoy, and ignore what some annoying audiophile DIY're says on some forum


----------



## MarioD

burlap said:


> hi all - new LCD-2.2 owner here - love them so far - I've had many cans over the years but I'd been listening to my old senn 580s (!) most lately before grabbing these...  I listen to a lot of electronic music and rock etc and was deeply curious about the bass extension and impact I've heard discussed so often, especially in contrast to the bass-shy senns. I've read 50+ pages of the thread (not the full 500ish) and searched for this particular case, so please bear with me for a sec -
> 
> I'm currently driving them with a McCormack micro integrated drive from the 90s - the extension is great, I'm digging the LCDs a lot but I'm not feeling the "slam" so much... I'm also using the RCA outs from my M-audio audiophile 2496 soundcard, ASIO drivers in foobar2000...
> 
> ...


 
  
 In my experience I never managed to extract "bass slam" out of the LCD-2F. It's entertaining to drive them with a 25W 1.2 kilovolt GM-70... still no bass slam like the LCD-X or dynamic phones.


----------



## roflcopter159

burlap said:


> hi all - new LCD-2.2 owner here - love them so far - I've had many cans over the years but I'd been listening to my old senn 580s (!) most lately before grabbing these...  I listen to a lot of electronic music and rock etc and was deeply curious about the bass extension and impact I've heard discussed so often, especially in contrast to the bass-shy senns. I've read 50+ pages of the thread (not the full 500ish) and searched for this particular case, so please bear with me for a sec -
> 
> I'm currently driving them with a McCormack micro integrated drive from the 90s - the extension is great, I'm digging the LCDs a lot but I'm not feeling the "slam" so much... I'm also using the RCA outs from my M-audio audiophile 2496 soundcard, ASIO drivers in foobar2000...
> 
> ...


 
  
  


mariod said:


> In my experience I never managed to extract "bass slam" out of the LCD-2F. It's entertaining to drive them with a 25W 1.2 kilovolt GM-70... still no bass slam like the LCD-X or dynamic phones.


 
  
  
 I agree. I haven't ever gotten much of a slam out of mine either (exception being music with absurd amounts of bass), but the extension and detail that the 2F gives is fantastic and definitely makes up for it. I get much more of a slam from my Mad Dogs, but I'll always turn to the 2F for anything acoustic or anything that reaches for the deep frequencies.


----------



## MRC001

mariod said:


> You make some very interesting points, but I can't agree with most of them.
> ...
> When we refer to accuracy, I think you and I are referring to different things, and I should have picked a different word (English isn't my native language). To me accuracy of a system is its ability to extract the finest detail out of a recording (resolution/definition), and not tonal balance.
> ...
> ...


 

 It's OK to disagree - in fact it's encouraged - that's what makes the discussion interesting. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 To me, accuracy is a combination of several factors including but not limited to detail, tonal balance, tonal purity/distortion, spatial cues/imaging, etc. Each system is an engineering compromise, strong in some areas weaker in others. So the ultimate accuracy test is fidelity. But *fidelity* means fidelity *to something*. For me, that *something* is the sound of actual live musicians playing acoustic instruments in front of you. That is the absolute reference and I gauge accuracy based on overall how close to that does the system sound to me.
 Yours or anyone else's definition of accuracy can be different and equally valid.
 The summary of my point: the objective measurements of these headphones (2F, 3F, X) are very similar; the 2F, 3F or X can be slightly better or worse in some measurements, no single one of them is clearly superior to the others in every measurement. In an objective sense, it's provably false that the 2F has audible distortion compared to the 3F - if if did it would show up in measurements, but it doesn't. What is true is that you perceive a difference in the sound that you describe as "distortion" or "muffled'. That is a perfectly valid observation, but it is subjective.
 Because their objective measurements are so similar, which of these headphones is more accurate or closer to "the truth" is a matter of subjective preference. Our perceptions and preferences are different and we share them here for the benefit of everyone to help pick which he will like the most.


----------



## MRC001

sludgeogre said:


> You probably aren't getting enough power into them. You should be getting at least 500 mW into them, but Audeze recommends 1-4 watts. I'm highly doubting that old headphone amp puts out a lot of juice. You can pick up a Schiit Magni for 100-150 bucks and it'll drive them much better. Of course, there are a loooot of other, better options. Just depends on how much you want to spend. I love anything in the Schiit line. You can't go wrong with any of them, except for the Vali, with the LCD-2. Anything Woo as well.


 

 It's true that Audeze recommends a minimum of 1W for the amp. But this is a hugely conservative and way more power than you actually need. The LCD-2F is a reasonably efficient headphone, easy to drive, and they don't need nearly that much power unless you are listening at levels that will damage your hearing.
  
 The old Headroom amps using the "Max" circuit based on OPA627 op amps sound fantastic and have enough power to drive the LCD-2F, even though some of them max out around 300 mW that's enough because they are so clean and well designed. You can find them on eBay. Also Jan Meier's amps - the Jazz and and Classic - are even better in my opinion.
  
 Far earlier in this thread about a year ago I posted some actual numbers on this - you can find it easily.
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/495631/amp-recommendations-for-audeze-lcd-2/7230#post_10424733


----------



## MarioD

mrc001 said:


> It's OK to disagree - in fact it's encouraged - that's what makes the discussion interesting.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yep, disagreement is what makes this discussion interesting, but I have the feeling this will be a discussion to no end  I'm not going to argue, as you put it well - we all hear differently. I'd suggest conducting a little experiment for yourself though. If you ever get a chance, listen to someone playing an acoustic guitar in the recording studio cabin. Then put a microphone exactly where your head was in XYZ and record it. Listen to the raw material without corrections and tell me then if LCD-2F or LCD-X sounds more natural to your ears; in terms of, as you put it, "detail, tonal balance, tonal purity/distortion..." (and yet the sound will still depend on the mic and pre-headphone equipment).. Then, for the fun of it, try the same experiment in a less acoustically damped environment to see how the headphones deal with the reproduction of both the recorded reverberations and primary sound source => IMO a good test for spatial projection. Here we shouldn't bring the HD800 into the discussion, as it utilizes an open capsule design (rather semi-open between the driver and the pads) to further enhance the imaging/spatial projection that has nothing to do with it's driver capabilities (and it's a very capable dynamic driver, despite the fact the magnet system is neodymium-based).
  
 If you ever speak to speaker driver designers, one thing they will tell you is there's no perfect driver. However, some are better than others. I'm really not going to venture into the realm of objective measurements of drivers. I'm scared there may be far too many very knowledgable engineers here who would bash me from here to eternity, if I even scratch the surface. 
  
 I believe if you invest the time and money into improvement of your audio chain, I think you will recognize the difference between the 2F and X. The X is capable of a much better detail retrieval and spatial projection. And to my ears it is very close to natural sounding, but we already agreed, I believe, perception is affected by both the audio chain and subjective listening experiences, so this is a moot point.
  
 If you ever decide to take this path of thorough audiophilia sickness though, one advice from me. If your wife threatens you to stop or she'll divorce you, because she just found out you had secretly blown the savings for your new family house and you're contemplating if your kid reeeeaally needs to go to college, I suggest you to listen to her and stop, because she means it 
  




  
 Regards,
 Mario


----------



## MRC001

mariod said:


> ... I'd suggest conducting a little experiment for yourself though. If you ever get a chance, listen to someone playing an acoustic guitar in the recording studio cabin. Then put a microphone exactly where your head was in XYZ and record it. Listen to the raw material without corrections and tell me then if LCD-2F or LCD-X sounds more natural to your ears; in terms of, as you put it, "detail, tonal balance, tonal purity/distortion..." (and yet the sound will still depend on the mic and pre-headphone equipment).. Then, for the fun of it, try the same experiment in a less acoustically damped environment to see how the headphones deal with the reproduction of both the recorded reverberations and primary sound source => IMO a good test for spatial projection.
> ...
> I believe if you invest the time and money into improvement of your audio chain, I think you will recognize the difference between the 2F and X.
> ... If you ever decide to take this path of thorough audiophilia sickness though
> ...


 
 I'm sure you didn't intend so, but this sounds a bit condescending.
 I'm already well on my journey through audiophilia sickness; it started over 20 years ago. I play in a small ensemble and attend local concerts regularly, so I know well what the real thing sounds like. And I've made high quality recordings of natural acoustic music in various rooms (I use a balanced pair of Rode NT1-As) so I know what the live mic feed sounds like in different rooms, at different distance and mic configurations.
 And there is no need to improve my audio chain. I certainly can recognize the difference between these headphones - I simply prefer the 2F over the others. I'm fortunate to have no budget limitations so price is not a factor. It sounds like you have a hard time understanding that - you seem to think my preference for the 2F must be due to lack of knowledge or insufficient equipment. Yet it's simply due to preference. I don't disparage the X, 3F or other headphones; they are fine headphones and I understand why some people prefer them to the 2F. Yet I know what the real thing sounds like and the 2F sounds closest to that *to me*. You prefer the X or 3F. I describe why, you describe why and we all learn something and have fun.


----------



## MarioD

mrc001 said:


> I'm sure you didn't intend so, but this sounds a bit condescending.
> I'm already well on my journey through audiophilia sickness; it started over 20 years ago. I play in a small ensemble and attend local concerts regularly, so I know well what the real thing sounds like. And I've made high quality recordings of natural acoustic music in various rooms (I use a balanced pair of Rode NT1-As) so I know what the live mic feed sounds like in different rooms, at different distance and mic configurations.
> And there is no need to improve my audio chain. I certainly can recognize the difference between these headphones - I simply prefer the 2F over the others. I'm fortunate to have no budget limitations so price is not a factor. It sounds like you have a hard time understanding that - you seem to think my preference for the 2F must be due to lack of knowledge or insufficient equipment. Yet it's simply due to preference. I don't disparage the X, 3F or other headphones; they are fine headphones and I understand why some people prefer them to the 2F. Yet I know what the real thing sounds like and the 2F sounds closest to that *to me*. You prefer the X or 3F. I describe why, you describe why and we all learn something and have fun.


 
  
 Apologies, although I realize now it does, I didn't mean this to sound condescending. It just came out this way. And the last paragraph was a joke, which reflected my personal experience, though vastly exaggerated.  Different people, different sense of humor!
  
 Okay, I get it now. Indeed I had hard time understanding the point you were trying to make. To me the X and 3F are better than the 2F in every concievable way, with the X sounding most neutral to my ears. I took it for granted everyone would see it this way, if they had good enough audio chain. I understand now your preference for the 2F isn't a result of insufficient knowledge or audio chain shortcomings. Even though I cannot comprehend what makes you prefer the 2F, I respect your choice now. Like I said in a previous post, listen to an audio system that you truly enjoy, nothing else matters.
  
 Regards,
 Mario


----------



## porridgecup

My BHA-1 just came in, and it really sounds amazing with the LCD-2. BHA-1/Gungnir is a major step up from my Magni/Modi in terms of sound quality. I'm pretty sure this will be my end game setup for quite a while.


----------



## korzena

porridgecup said:


> My BHA-1 just came in, and it really sounds amazing with the LCD-2. BHA-1/Gungnir is a major step up from my Magni/Modi in terms of sound quality. I'm pretty sure this will be my end game setup for quite a while.


 
 What's the biggest improvement for you?


----------



## porridgecup

korzena said:


> What's the biggest improvement for you?


 
  
 I've only been listening for 2 days now, but my initial impressions are:
  
 - The bass feels cleaner and more precise, while still being just as powerful if not more so.
 - Greater dynamic range.
  
 There may be other factors at play; I don't know a whole ton about audio or music theory. It is definitely quite a bit more enjoyable to listen to, though.


----------



## Chuckjones242

porridgecup said:


> I have definitely read the reviews of the BHA-1, and it's certainly tempting. I know it's a great amp. But I also read many complaints about sizzling treble when in use with bright headphones.
> 
> Of course, I do have the option of EQing some of the treble down, but it would feel kind of wrong to spend well over $2000 on, say, the HD 800, BHA-1, and some DAC, and then artificially neuter it. I do obviously want to optimize my listening experience with the LCD-2, but amps are pricey enough that I don't want to buy this now and then have to go and throw down another $1000-2000 on another amp while also spending $1000-2000 on another pair of headphones.
> 
> ...


 
  
 If you can get a chance to audition a semi-expensive DAC you'll notice the difference over something like a Schiit Bifrost almost instantly.   At least that was my experience with the Antelope Zodiac that I own now.  I had no business buying one, I'm in debt as a result, but I'm in love with it.   I can recommend the Lyr 2 as well if you're into the thought of valves, you can roll different tubes to suit the headphone or style of music.  I have some cheapo tubes that service metal beautifully and another expensive set that work wonderfully with electronic, jazz, classical / anything else.  But heavily evangelize the not oft mentioned Antelope Zodiac.  I tested it out at B&H in NYC, never heard of it, had no intent of buying one.  Just floored me when I was demoing Audeze cans.


----------



## Chuckjones242

Of course I just notice you bought a BHA-1 and Schiit DAC - lol
  
 I'm looking to upgrade to a BHA-1, been in love with Bryston since I was a kid aspiring to be an audiophile.  Let me know what you think!
  
 Good luck with them, enjoy!


----------



## Sound Eq

i was wondering which is the best for money amp with bass adjustment for audeze lcd2 that is very warn and great great bass punch, that i can connect it to my ifi micro dsd ,


----------



## diamondears

sound eq said:


> i was wondering which is the best for money amp with bass adjustment for audeze lcd2 that is very warn and great great bass punch, that i can connect it to my ifi micro dsd ,



Did you try the iFi micro iCAN?


----------



## roflcopter159

diamondears said:


> Did you try the iFi micro iCAN?




If he already has the micro idsd, why bother with the micro ican? From what I remember, I'm fairly certain they have very similar amps, right?


----------



## diamondears

roflcopter159 said:


> If he already has the micro idsd, why bother with the micro ican? From what I remember, I'm fairly certain they have very similar amps, right?



Different. The iFi micro iCAN is Class A amp. And it has 3D and XBass switches that he's looking for. Desktop amp though (not portable).


----------



## porridgecup

chuckjones242 said:


> Of course I just notice you bought a BHA-1 and Schiit DAC - lol
> 
> I'm looking to upgrade to a BHA-1, been in love with Bryston since I was a kid aspiring to be an audiophile.  Let me know what you think!
> 
> Good luck with them, enjoy!


 
  
 I'm not sure how much the DAC is contributing vs. the amp, but either way the combo is excellent. It's like night and day compared to the Magni/Modi. I was not expecting such a stark change by only switching the DAC and amp with the same headphones. The LCD-2 feels like it's at its full potential now, and the sound quality is better than I imagined and hoped it would be.
  
 I've noticed it really shines best when the BHA-1 pot is at or past the 8 o'clock point. I can't articulate it very well, but it just sounds "right". Everything feels extremely impactful, both highs and lows. Transparency is improved quite a bit too: I am noticing several new things in songs. Only exception to the impactfulness improvement is the upper highs, but that's just a given for the LCD-2, and is what I prefer.
  
 All that said, this is the only high end combo I have tried yet; I've only had lower and mid end cans and gear until now. You may want to take what I say with a grain of salt. So there certainly might be a better combo out there for the LCD-2, though I can't imagine how it would improve from this.


----------



## roflcopter159

diamondears said:


> Different. The iFi micro iCAN is Class A amp. And it has 3D and XBass switches that he's looking for. Desktop amp though (not portable).


 
 Guess I missed that part about the class A vs class A/B. Though, the iDSD does have the 3D and XBass switches too. Looking briefly at the specs of the iCan and the iDSD, it also appears that the iDSD outputs more power at 32 ohms (though, I may just be reading that wrong).


----------



## Sound Eq

diamondears said:


> Did you try the iFi micro iCAN?


 

 I have the ifi micro dsd, I think I need something more powerful, and besides I am already using alo mk3 B with the ifi micro, so I do not think that ifi ican will be more powerful or better than my current setup
  
 ifi micro dsd---- alo mk3 B--- audeze lce2
  
 unless the ifi ican is way more powerful than the alo mk3 B


----------



## diamondears

sound eq said:


> I have the ifi micro dsd, I think I need something more powerful, and besides I am already using alo mk3 B with the ifi micro, so I do not think that ifi ican will be more powerful or better than my current setup
> 
> ifi micro dsd---- alo mk3 B--- audeze lce2
> 
> unless the ifi ican is way more powerful than the alo mk3 B



Why do you need more power? LCD-2.2 only needs 80mW/2Vrms, LCD-2F needs only 51mW/1.9Vrms to reach 110dB. The iFi micro iCAN is 400mW at 32 ohms. 

It's a Class "A" amp, so it would definitely be more warm and analogue/like. Plus has both 3D and XtraBass (2 levels up) switches. Haven't you heard it?


----------



## Sound Eq

diamondears said:


> Why do you need more power? LCD-2.2 only needs 80mW/2Vrms, LCD-2F needs only 51mW/1.9Vrms to reach 110dB. The iFi micro iCAN is 400mW at 32 ohms.
> 
> It's a Class "A" amp, so it would definitely be more warm and analogue/like. Plus has both 3D and XtraBass (2 levels up) switches. Haven't you heard it?


 
  


diamondears said:


> Why do you need more power? LCD-2.2 only needs 80mW/2Vrms, LCD-2F needs only 51mW/1.9Vrms to reach 110dB. The iFi micro iCAN is 400mW at 32 ohms.
> 
> It's a Class "A" amp, so it would definitely be more warm and analogue/like. Plus has both 3D and XtraBass (2 levels up) switches. Haven't you heard it?


 

 is the ifi micro ican more powerful than alo mk3 B


----------



## diamondears

sound eq said:


> is the ifi micro ican more powerful than alo mk3 B



On balanced mode no, single ended yes. But even if no, why the fuss? 400mW at 32ohms is way enough for the LCD-2. Being Class A with excellent implementation is enough for me. It's waaaaay better than the iFi micro iDSD's amp IMO. 

Why you looking for another amp btw?


----------



## Sound Eq

i thought if if i have a more powerful amp than alo mk3 i will get more than what i am getting now, also the bass i like in alo mk3 but i thought if there is an amp with better and more punchy bass


----------



## CanadianMaestro

chuckjones242 said:


> I'm looking to upgrade to a BHA-1, been in love with Bryston since I was a kid aspiring to be an audiophile.  Let me know what you think!
> 
> Good luck with them, enjoy!


 

 +10 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 More headroom, greater sense of "ease" with dynamic music, astounding clarity and transparency.


----------



## Chuckjones242

canadianmaestro said:


> +10
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Sorry for the newbie question, but putting this in language I can understand, does that mean you can play complex music with multiple instruments playing in unison and be able to distinguish them separately?  This seems to be one of the hardest thing for DAC's and amp's to do.   There is probably a term for this


----------



## CanadianMaestro

It's called separation and placement in our lingo. A good DAC will do this without sacrificing clarity and can integrate the "whole". Seeing the forest as well as the trees is an important aspect of musicality.
 Transparency and clarity are not the same thing. Trans. means you hear everything on the recording. If it's there, you should hear it. But what you hear may/may not be crystal clear.


----------



## Chuckjones242

canadianmaestro said:


> It's called separation and placement in our lingo. A good DAC will do this without sacrificing clarity and can integrate the "whole". Seeing the forest as well as the trees is an important aspect of musicality.
> Transparency and clarity are not the same thing. Trans. means you hear everything on the recording. If it's there, you should hear it. But what you hear may/may not be crystal clear.


 
  
 Thank you!  So a good DAC will be transparent and feature all the music, but will also separate with clarity.  
  
 To that end, it's amazing how good this AK120 is as a full blown DAP.  Off topic I know, but the DAC is great.  It doesn't have the musicality of the Antelope, it's a little colder / harsher but the separation is just amazing.  Part of the reason it's great is probably related to the fact that the amp and DAC are integrated together which allows for tight control (think of a Mac versus a DIY PC) - and a reason to use higher sensitivity headphones and not amplifying the analog output yourself.
  
 Is it fair to say that an amp's job is to not "lose" the exposed qualities from the DAC?  Not losing the sources sound.  But adding in it's own flavors / qualities gives it personality that you either like or don't.  It's not like an amp can "add" clarity by this definition.  If it's harsh from the DAC, it's not going to be saved / made clear.
  
 Thanks again for the lesson - very helpful


----------



## CanadianMaestro

Synergy is the key. Not perfection, whatever that is. Amp, DAC, source, all working well together. Concentrate on your sources. If they're corrupted, it doesn't matter what the quality of the DAC/amp is. It all flows down/starts from the sources, like a waterfall. For me, neutrality is a prized trait with my amps. Then transparency. As little coloration as possible.


----------



## Audiogalore




----------



## chancee

Could I get some opinions as to what would be the better DAC for some LCD-2's I just picketdup.  I'll be using v200 for an amp and I'm trying to decide between the concero HD or the Yulong da8 for the DAC.  I'm wondering which of these will open up the soundstage of the LCD's more.


----------



## Zashoomin

chancee said:


> Could I get some opinions as to what would be the better DAC for some LCD-2's I just picketdup.  I'll be using v200 for an amp and I'm trying to decide between the concero HD or the Yulong da8 for the DAC.  I'm wondering which of these will open up the soundstage of the LCD's more.


 
 I have owned both a concero (not HD) and DA8 as wel as LCD2's and have to say that the DA8 is a decent step up in almost every way compared to the concero, except for size and build quality.  The concero is milled from a single block of metal and I don't think that any chassis can really compete with that.  That being said I think that the DA8 will definately sound better.


----------



## Noodlz

So i finally got myself a LCD-2~~ Wondering what i should be getting next to step up the amp. I'm currently using an indeed G2 with a 7308 phillips JAN tube, Should the next thing be a Lyr 2 or Project Ember? (if so which one would you guys recommend?) Or Should i just go straight up to the $800 range of a Violectric V200 / Schitt Mjolnir/ Burson Soloist? Or lastly... just save for like a Beta22 or something?


----------



## Lohb

noodlz said:


> So i finally got myself a LCD-2~~ Wondering what i should be getting next to step up the amp. I'm currently using an indeed G2 with a 7308 phillips JAN tube, Should the next thing be a Lyr 2 or Project Ember? (if so which one would you guys recommend?) Or Should i just go straight up to the $800 range of a Violectric V200 / Schitt Mjolnir/ Burson Soloist? Or lastly... just save for like a Beta22 or something?


 

 One to check out is the Gustard H10 thread....From reports its high current class A output goes great with planars.


----------



## Rayoki

noodlz said:


> So i finally got myself a LCD-2~~ Wondering what i should be getting next to step up the amp. I'm currently using an indeed G2 with a 7308 phillips JAN tube, Should the next thing be a Lyr 2 or Project Ember? (if so which one would you guys recommend?) Or Should i just go straight up to the $800 range of a Violectric V200 / Schitt Mjolnir/ Burson Soloist? Or lastly... just save for like a Beta22 or something?


 
 do you prefer tube sound or solid state?

 tubewise pick up a lyr 2 used off the forum. Woo has some offerings higher up but that's out of my price range and can't contribute from experience.
  
 if solid state is your thing then pick up a V200 clono (the Gustard H10) cheap, or go big with the soloist.


----------



## Noodlz

Wow that Gustard H10 looks pretty amazing. According to some ppl on the other thread it actually sounds better than the V200. I might just get this and call it a day for a while. I do like the tube sound, but solid states work too, really just looking for an optimal match to the LCD2's. 
  
 Side note: while looking up the V200  & Gustard H10, i found this:
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/HIFI-OmniBalance-Headphone-Amplifier-Reference-Germany-Violectric-HPA-V181-AMP-/271807827603?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f49024e93
  
 Are these any good? Or should i just go with the Gustard H10 since there seems to be a good following of positive reviews on that


----------



## Rayoki

if you can wait then wait for the next H10 massdrop. otherwise just pick it up from pollychen on ebay


----------



## chancee

Thanks...


----------



## esteboune

hello all!
  
 this is my previous config
  
 Macbook air -> USB -> Arcam irDac -> Litte Dot Mkiii -> B&W p7
  
 i enjoyed this configuration for about a year and recently decided acquire the pretty amazing LCD-2.
  
 I can clearly hear a big improvement from the p7 using this configuration, but i'm afraid the LD mkiii is not really fitted for the LCD2.
  
 So i ended up on this thread, and order a Lyr2 !!!
  
 feedback coming soon. Thanks for all your great information


----------



## Noodlz

Wanted to report after getting my H10 and doing the 100 hour burn in, it has transformed my LCD2's. Highly highly highly recommended. Everything sounds AMAZING with it.


----------



## Jeangenie

spyrko said:


> I've got Apogee Duet 2 which I quite like so far but actually I think I need something more powerful, mainly to focus on the low end as I want to use LCD2's also for the technical reasons and I would prefer to buy a better amp that will be more powerful and can reveals more details in low end than just to use EQ. I found the sound character of LCD2's almost ideal for all my requirements, and just need to tune this low to make it perfect for me.


 

 How far did you have to turn the dial for the Apogee duet + LCD2s? Did you ever upgrade your amp? how was the characteristics of the Apogee duet + The LCD 2s?


----------



## Jeangenie

Regarding the sound signature. Is the Asgard considered to be warmer than the lyr? (Both second gen)

I've been reading and it seems like the Asgard is warmer and brings out the bass of the lcd2s while the lyr is brighter and brings out the treble a bit more. 

I have a Valhalla 2 and know it won't work with the lcds. So basically I'm trying to figure out with amp to go with while hopefully having something different enough from the valhalla. (Valhalla works nicely with the hd600


----------



## Acquire

Hey guys, so I'm looking for a dac to go with my amp.  I've been using my xonar essence stx sound card on my PC as my dac for years, but I want something that isn't tied to my PC and I have too many video cards >_> so its become a problem keeping the sound card in there.
  
 I'm not really caring for an improvement in sound quality.  As long as it doesn't sound worse.  I'm looking for similarly priced one with a toslink or coaxial digital input.  Don't want to be limited to just usb.
  
 I was looking at the schiit modi 2 uber.  Seems to have what I want.  Any other recommendations or suggestions?
  
 My amp is the fosgate signature headphone amp.


----------



## Lohb

acquire said:


> Hey guys, so I'm looking for a dac to go with my amp.  I've been using my xonar essence stx sound card on my PC as my dac for years, but I want something that isn't tied to my PC and I have too many video cards >_> so its become a problem keeping the sound card in there.
> 
> I'm not really caring for an improvement in sound quality.  As long as it doesn't sound worse.  I'm looking for similarly priced one with a toslink or coaxial digital input.  Don't want to be limited to just usb.
> 
> ...


 

 As an entry-level but pretty great DAC IMO, try and hunt down a used Bushmaster Mk2 on the F/S board.
 The chip in it is known to sound analog and it has great depth/width for LCD-2s. The chip in it is an obscure Wolfson WM8524 DAC chip.
 Run it off a battery for jet-black background. Hidden gem.
 Need an amp though as it does not power planars very well.


----------



## Acquire

lohb said:


> As an entry-level but pretty great DAC IMO, try and hunt down a used Bushmaster Mk2 on the F/S board.
> The chip in it is known to sound analog and it has great depth/width for LCD-2s. The chip in it is an obscure Wolfson WM8524 DAC chip.
> Run it off a battery for jet-black background. Hidden gem.
> Need an amp though as it does not power planars very well.




I want something practical. Don't want to be hunting down used products and running them off batteries.


----------



## Amish

The Modi is a good entry level but the Bifrost would give you the options you would like. I also like the Arcam irDAC as well. I almost bought one last year. But it's a bit more expensive.
  
 If I were you I'd just pick up the bifrost and be done.


----------



## Lohb

acquire said:


> I want something practical. Don't want to be hunting down used products and running them off batteries.


 

 Then buy it new and plug in the wall.


----------



## Synthax

Dear Collegues,
 Will single tube (per channel) 2A3 speaker amp drive LCD2 sufficent ? It gives 3,8W into 8 ohm
  
 Thank you


----------



## Acquire

Haha. So, I ended up buying an ifi retro stereo 50.  Pretty drastic change from the original plan.  The headphones sound amazing with it.  It also has built in 3d and bass boost, which I'm thoroughly enjoying.  The speakers it comes with are also pretty sweet.


----------



## x RELIC x

acquire said:


> Haha. So, I ended up buying an ifi retro stereo 50.  Pretty drastic change from the original plan.  The headphones sound amazing with it.  It also has built in 3d and bass boost, which I'm thoroughly enjoying.  The speakers it comes with are also pretty sweet.




Love to see a pic of that!


----------



## echineko

intrawert said:


> What is it?



This: ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/retro-stereo-50/

Retro-styled amp/dac with full features and format support


----------



## x RELIC x

echineko said:


> This: ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/retro-stereo-50/
> 
> Retro-styled amp/dac with full features and format support




Lol, I thought you've miss-spelled 'HiFi' and I was expecting an actual vintage tube amp. Glad you're liking it.


----------



## Acquire

It's pretty awesome.  The problem is, I don't have any space to appropriately position the speakers on my desk.  I'll figure that part out later.


----------



## DDDamian

echineko said:


> This: ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/retro-stereo-50/
> 
> Retro-styled amp/dac with full features and format support


 
 You bought one of those?! Been drooling since I stumbled across an ad for it here the other day. Stunned by both the concept/looks and the sheer amount of goodness they packed into it. Review please!


----------



## Acquire

Yeah.  I've only had it for a few days.  First impressions are positive.  It looks beautiful.  The top vent outputs tons of heat.  The speakers are nice, though a small sub would definitely help it out.  My headphones so far sound better than they have on other amps/dacs.  I've only tried usb and bluetooth as sources for it.
  
 Here's my pretty lame speaker setup.  Like I said I need to figure that out.  I mostly listen to headphones though.  Perhaps, an even bigger desk.


----------



## x RELIC x

acquire said:


> Yeah.  I've only had it for a few days.  First impressions are positive.  It looks beautiful.  The top vent outputs tons of heat.  The speakers are nice, though a small sub would definitely help it out.  My headphones so far sound better than they have on other amps/dacs.  I've only tried usb and bluetooth as sources for it.
> 
> Here's my pretty lame speaker setup.  Like I said I need to figure that out.  I mostly listen to headphones though.  Perhaps, an even bigger desk.




Two words....... speaker stands. :wink_face:


----------



## DDDamian

x relic x said:


> Two words....... speaker stands.


 
 Or lose the flat panels for a VR interface 
  
 Still congrats on the unit - was rated very highly - lots of juice on the headphone taps too


----------



## vinyl addict

preproman said:


> buson160man said:
> 
> 
> > I have lcd-2 v2s and I have heard the bryston BHA-1 balanced amp but only in single ended fashion at one of the local audio salons in my area.I listened for about two hours with cds that I brought with me and I have to say that I liked what I heard.The lcd-2 tends to sound a little warm in general with any of the amps I have heard them with, but the bryston really tightens them up and makes them sound more neutral in general ( keep in mind I heard them in only single-ended fashion ). I also have to comment about the brystons bass it was just spectacular with the lcd-2 tremendously powerful and the sound had much greater dynamics than I have ever heard with my lcd-2 before.Of course I have only heard the lcd-2s with my burson ha-160 and ray samuels otl raptor headphone amps.But the burson does work pretty well with them.
> ...


 

 I have the same combo with vinyl as my source.  Single ended now but am considering a balanced connection.  However, my phono preamp has _*no*_ balanced connections or circuitry
  
*Q:*  What advantages (if any) can be had going balanced in this situation?


----------



## petezjunior

suggestions on a dac to match the audeze lcd-2 fazor and a violectric v200? really don't want to spend over $500, if there is a very good match with these two, can you suggest any? if not, then what is a good dac under $1000 in your opinion? ty.


----------



## Gibsonmac

petezjunior said:


> suggestions on a dac to match the audeze lcd-2 fazor and a violectric v200? really don't want to spend over $500, if there is a very good match with these two, can you suggest any? if not, then what is a good dac under $1000 in your opinion? ty.


schiit bifrost uber w/ usb is pretty stellar for $520, and the Schiit gungnir with usb for $849 is also pretty killer, and it has balanced outs if you are into that sort of thing.


----------



## marcan

Bryston BHA-1 with a LCD-2r2 here. So good that I had to buy a new DAC (Weiss DAC202).
 Balanced cables is very important because it drives your headphones both ways. It gives you a faster, deeper and clearer sound with more headroom. So for the price it's a no brainier.
  
 I compared my good old LCD-2r2 with the new LCD-X and LCD-3... I would be happy to get something better but I was surprised that my LCD-2r2 was somehow better for me.
 More natural sound with a flatter presentation. Lower bass. The big brothers have more treble but it wasn't very natural for me (spikes).
 So I think I'm going to keep my LCD-2r2 for long time now...


----------



## DDDamian

marcan said:


> Bryston BHA-1 with a LCD-2r2 here. So good that I had to buy a new DAC (Weiss DAC202).
> Balanced cables is very important because it drives your headphones both ways. It gives you a faster, deeper and clearer sound with more headroom. So for the price it's a no brainier.
> 
> I compared my good old LCD-2r2 with the new LCD-X and LCD-3... I would be happy to get something better but I was surprised that my LCD-2r2 was somehow better for me.
> ...


 
 +1 to that. Quite enjoying a Teac HD-501 -> Gustard H-10 -> LCD2.2c. Maybe even a touch more than with my BH S.E.X. amp, although it's going through a cap & iron upgrade atm.
  
 Amazing bass, fast transients, non-fatiguing....


----------



## jodgey4

petezjunior said:


> suggestions on a dac to match the audeze lcd-2 fazor and a violectric v200? really don't want to spend over $500, if there is a very good match with these two, can you suggest any? if not, then what is a good dac under $1000 in your opinion? ty.




A smooth and detailed ES9018 DAC from Audio-gd would be my choice in that setup. NFB-3 and the TCXO upgrades would be great. Expensive, though.


----------



## sikki-six

For Mac users, Apogee DUET (1st version) seems to work great with LCD-2s. Much better than my Fiio E7/E9 -combo, which is kind of odd. Since the Fiio should have a much better output impedance etc. compared to the Thunderbolt-powered Duet. Does the DAC make such a clear difference?
  
 What's going on?


----------



## Gibsonmac

sikki-six said:


> For Mac users, Apogee DUET (1st version) seems to work great with LCD-2s. Much better than my Fiio E7/E9 -combo, which is kind of odd. Since the Fiio should have a much better output impedance etc. compared to the Thunderbolt-powered Duet. Does the DAC make such a clear difference?
> 
> What's going on?


The fiio combo is a entry level setup better for IEMs and dynamic drivers. The dac can make a huge difference, the caveat to that is once you hit the point of diminishing returns, you'll spend hundreds or more to get a negligible improvement.


----------



## Jeangenie

sikki-six said:


> For Mac users, Apogee DUET (1st version) seems to work great with LCD-2s. Much better than my Fiio E7/E9 -combo, which is kind of odd. Since the Fiio should have a much better output impedance etc. compared to the Thunderbolt-powered Duet. Does the DAC make such a clear difference?
> 
> What's going on?


 

 Do you know if the duet 2 works (at least as a temporary solution until one can save up for a better amp)? I just want to make sure its safe to use with a duet 2?


----------



## Gibsonmac

jeangenie said:


> Do you know if the duet 2 works (at least as a temporary solution until one can save up for a better amp)? I just want to make sure its safe to use with a duet 2?



Safe? Yes, it's safe to use, you won't damage your equipment. But you will want an upgrade imo.


----------



## sikki-six

gibsonmac said:


> The fiio combo is a entry level setup better for IEMs and dynamic drivers. The dac can make a huge difference, the caveat to that is once you hit the point of diminishing returns, you'll spend hundreds or more to get a negligible improvement.


 
  
 E9 seems to have a full 1W of power - isn't that enough for LCDs? (Because that's enough to get evicted in some places with a guitar amp.) I bet the Apogee has much less.


----------



## sikki-six

gibsonmac said:


> Safe? Yes, it's safe to use, you won't damage your equipment. But you will want an upgrade imo.


 
  
 I'd still see what it sounds like first. Because it just might work, as I explained.
  
 And yes, it is very safe.


----------



## Jeangenie

sikki-six said:


> I'd still see what it sounds like first. Because it just might work, as I explained.
> 
> And yes, it is very safe.





Thanks both of you! It will be my stopgap solution until I can save up for a better amp


----------



## sikki-six

jeangenie said:


> Thanks both of you! It will be my stopgap solution until I can save up for a better amp


 
  
 I hope you already have it - and not just buy for amping 
  
 Duet's are very nice, great integration with macs.


----------



## Jeangenie

sikki-six said:


> I hope you already have it - and not just buy for amping
> 
> Duet's are very nice, great integration with macs.




Oh yeah! I already own a diet because I use it for recording! It's nice to know that it can work as a stopgap amp for the lcd2s


----------



## x RELIC x

jeangenie said:


> Oh yeah! I already own a *diet* because I use it for recording! It's nice to know that it can work as a stopgap amp for the lcd2s




Gotta love auto correct.


----------



## DDDamian

x relic x said:


> Gotta love auto correct.


 
 I once had orthodynamic come out as orthopedic. But when the mail came I had really, really comfortable shoes.


----------



## Gibsonmac

sikki-six said:


> E9 seems to have a full 1W of power - isn't that enough for LCDs? (Because that's enough to get evicted in some places with a guitar amp.) I bet the Apogee has much less.



A)wattage is not a standard unit of measure, there are many ways for a manufacturer to manipulate the way it's measured to pad their numbers. 

B)there is much more to it that wattage, things like output impedance and current are equally if not more important when looking at an amps performance and matching it to cans or speakers. 

Even things like power cables and connections matter in the world of headfi... With traditional hifi and home theater, spending lots on cables yields negligible improvements. However in headfi, upgrading your cables, while still somewhat subtle compared to an amp upgrade, the difference in going with higher end cables is much more apparent.


----------



## Jeangenie

I was wondering if I could get some opinions.
  
 By the end of this year I will have enough funds for an HD800 as well as a LYR2.
  
 Question is, should I get the LYR 2 first or the HD800?
  
 I have an LCD2.2 F with an Apogee Duet 2 currently.
  
 Would it be best to hold off until later this year for the HD800 (with the possibility of a black friday sale and/or new Senny Flagship) or should I hold off on the LYR 2 (assuming that it will be a marginal difference in sound compared to the DUET 2)?


----------



## echineko

jeangenie said:


> I was wondering if I could get some opinions.
> 
> By the end of this year I will have enough funds for an HD800 as well as a LYR2.
> 
> ...


 
 I'm using a Lyr 2 right now, and I'm really happy with the sound (especially with upgraded tubes). But if I were thinking of running a HD800 at home (currently only the LCD-2 and HD700), I would be thinking of upgrading to a higher end amp first, really. From all reports the HD800s demand more out of amplification, eh? Can't recommend anything since I haven't researched them.


----------



## Gibsonmac

jeangenie said:


> I was wondering if I could get some opinions.
> 
> By the end of this year I will have enough funds for an HD800 as well as a LYR2.
> 
> ...


the hd800 is a very picky set of cans, and it doesn't pair very well with the lyr2. Look as getting a woo wa6/wa2/wa6se. Any of those will be exponentially better with the hd800, but I would recommend the wa6se if you already have the lcd2, because it is absolutely phenomenal with the lcd2. 

Honestly the lyr2 is a nice little amp, but I ended up sending mine back. I mean by the time you end up with the right tubes to open up the bass extension and power, the extra cash puts you into the woo price points anyway, and they are a superior tube amp in my opinion. BUT the schiit customer service is beyond superb, so that is worth something.


----------



## White Lotus

Hey guys, my LCD 2.2 will be here by the end of the week.
  
 I was hoping to drive them with my Matrix Quattro.
  
 The specs of the Quattro are as follows:
  


> Balanced Mode:
> Maximum Output Current: 1000mA
> Output Power: 400mW/300Ω, 800mW/60Ω
> 
> ...


 
  
 Even in balanced mode, it's not quite up to the "1-4 watts" recommended by Audeze.
  
 Should I be concerned about this, and start looking for a new amp? Or would the difference be negligible?


----------



## DDDamian

white lotus said:


> Hey guys, my LCD 2.2 will be here by the end of the week.
> 
> I was hoping to drive them with my Matrix Quattro.
> 
> ...


 
 I'd be sourcing a nice balanced cable and giving it a try. Not all watts are created equally, and you may well enjoy the pairing. If not, well, you have a nice cable and an itch to upgrade


----------



## marcan

It also depends on your listening level.
 But LCD-2 likes a bit of violence 
 Actually %THD+noise is better at 100dB than 90dB
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/AudezeLCD2Rev2.pdf


----------



## White Lotus

marcan said:


> It also depends on your listening level.
> But LCD-2 likes a bit of violence
> Actually %THD+noise is better at 100dB than 90dB
> http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/AudezeLCD2Rev2.pdf


 
  
 I don't listen at extreme levels, but I do like a good amount of bass-boost.
  
 Will this change things?


----------



## marcan

white lotus said:


> I don't listen at extreme levels, but I do like a good amount of bass-boost.
> 
> Will this change things?


 
 Yes it will eat up the juice.
 But don't bass boost your lcd, it's like fake boobs, it's bigger but it's not the real feeling


----------



## LancerFIN

How's the pairing with audio-gd Reference 10?


----------



## strreamix

Anyone with a LCD-2 Rev 2 with an amp+dac that can hit the 7 Hz note in "Bass, I love you". If you think you're up for the challenge, PM me your email, I'll send you over a .flac off the song unless you have it yourself.
  
 Point is, I am looking for the amp/dac combo that can achieve the lowest of the low bass and produce it with strength and accuracy. I know what it sounds like as the subwoofer in my car is tuned to 21 Hz and is able to hit the note.
  
 I'm having a difficult time buying anything besides the o2+odac. Not to offend anyone's equipment, I've just seen multiple individuals who say there is hardly a difference between the o2+odac and all the regulars (soloist, lyr, v200, etc).
  
 My LCD-2 Rev 2 is about to be on the way; I need to make this decision! (I've read this whole entire thread and still I find myself undecided).


----------



## White Lotus

strreamix said:


> My LCD-2 Rev 2 is about to be on the way; I need to make this decision! (I've read this whole entire thread and still I find myself undecided).


 
  
 Hey mate, I've done relentless research over the past few days, and my findings are as follows:
  
 o2 is absolutely fine for the LCD 2.2.
  
 I won't go into detail as to "why", but PM me if you want details.


----------



## marcan

strreamix said:


> Anyone with a LCD-2 Rev 2 with an amp+dac that can hit the 7 Hz note in "Bass, I love you". If you think you're up for the challenge, PM me your email, I'll send you over a .flac off the song unless you have it yourself.
> 
> Point is, I am looking for the amp/dac combo that can achieve the lowest of the low bass and produce it with strength and accuracy. I know what it sounds like as the subwoofer in my car is tuned to 21 Hz and is able to hit the note.
> 
> ...


 
 I tried it and I can hear the sub but it isn't very present.
 Regarding your car, it is possible that you rather hear some harmonics of 7hz (14, 28, ...). Also you might feel it which isn't completely possible with headphones.


----------



## diamondears

strreamix said:


> Anyone with a LCD-2 Rev 2 with an amp+dac that can hit the 7 Hz note in "Bass, I love you". If you think you're up for the challenge, PM me your email, I'll send you over a .flac off the song unless you have it yourself.
> 
> Point is, I am looking for the amp/dac combo that can achieve the lowest of the low bass and produce it with strength and accuracy. I know what it sounds like as the subwoofer in my car is tuned to 21 Hz and is able to hit the note.
> 
> ...





marcan said:


> I tried it and I can hear the sub but it isn't very present.
> Regarding your car, it is possible that you rather hear some harmonics of 7hz (14, 28, ...). Also you might feel it which isn't completely possible with headphones.



O2 is very transparent, so if there is deep bass, you'll hear it on the LCD-2.2. 

But if you want some extra options to still bump up the bass, or ensure its there to your satisfaction, try the iFi micro iCAN. With it, you can bump the deep bass by 2 levels up. And it's Class A, so definitely bass capable. It's not transportable/battery powered like the O2 though. 

For a DAC, aside from the ODAC (which I've not heard btw), there is the iFi nano iDSD at same price range. Also, iFi micro iDAC and iFi micro iDSD, but more expensive.


----------



## LancerFIN

Flat frequency response doesn't mean jack if you don't have the power required to get the subbass out of lcd-2.


----------



## buson160man

strreamix said:


> Anyone with a LCD-2 Rev 2 with an amp+dac that can hit the 7 Hz note in "Bass, I love you". If you think you're up for the challenge, PM me your email, I'll send you over a .flac off the song unless you have it yourself.
> 
> Point is, I am looking for the amp/dac combo that can achieve the lowest of the low bass and produce it with strength and accuracy. I know what it sounds like as the subwoofer in my car is tuned to 21 Hz and is able to hit the note.
> 
> ...


 

  I recommend the concept 16.5 vintage late 1970s receiver. That is what I use of course mine was recapped and I did upgrade the fuses to isoclean fuses. My lcd2 v2s have never had the authority on the bass end with any dedicated headphone amp I have heard them with. the concept 16.5 produces 165 watts rms per channel into speakers and weighs in at 67 lbs. Not exactly portable or easy to move around. But boy if you like authority you should listen to this beast. You definitely will not be disappointed. Of course there  is no dac  back in the day they probably did not have dac amps. But if you want authority the concept really delivers the goods.


----------



## diamondears

lancerfin said:


> Flat frequency response doesn't mean jack if you don't have the power required to get the subbass out of lcd-2.



Which has no enough power for the LCD-2.2's sub-bass?


----------



## White Lotus

LCD 2.2 came in this week!
  
 Matrix Quattro is an AWESOME combo. 
  
 LCD 2.2 is absolutely fantastic out of the balanced outputs.


----------



## Lohb

white lotus said:


> LCD 2.2 came in this week!
> 
> Matrix Quattro is an AWESOME combo.
> 
> LCD 2.2 is absolutely fantastic out of the balanced outputs.


 







 
 Are you using hardware EQ or just as it is ?
 I saw there was talk about software EQ adding artifacts crap before in the thread, but unsure where a quality hardware EQ sits in not mucking up other areas of the presentation....


----------



## White Lotus

Hardware EQ is absolutely awesome with the LCD 2.
  
 The pure amount of bass slam available in the LCD 2.2 is amazing - and you can dial it in as little or as much as you want.
  
 I highly recommend it.


----------



## marcan

lohb said:


> Are you using hardware EQ or just as it is ?
> I saw there was talk about software EQ adding artifacts crap before in the thread, but unsure where a quality hardware EQ sits in not mucking up other areas of the presentation....


 
 Hardware eq will add slight saturation and phase shidt.


----------



## Amish

I do prefer no EQ with anything I run but I have to say that of all the headphones I own the LCD-2 R2 without a doubt do not require EQ. With my equipment anyway.


----------



## Gibsonmac

The WA6SE is pretty fantastic with the LCD-2F, and I'll be getting the Rev 2 next week, I'm anticipating magic. I have to firmly disagree that the O2 performs as well as higher end amps, even the Lyr2(which I didn't really like) blows it out of the water. For what the O2 is, it's not bad, it'll do in a pinch, but it just can't compete with say a Lyr or better.


----------



## White Lotus

marcan said:


> Hardware eq will add slight saturation and phase shidt.


 
  
 And..?
  
  
  
 Part of my job is live sound reinforcement, and I use the both hardware/software EQ all the time for work.
  
 I specifically use it at home to give the LCD 2.2 a bass boost - it's how I personally like to listen to my cans.
  
 It's cool if you guys aren't into that - I am!
  
 Part of the reason this hobby is so great, is that we can all be happy with our own setups.
  
 To each their own, I say.


----------



## CanadianMaestro

amish said:


> I do prefer no EQ with anything I run but I have to say that of all the headphones I own the LCD-2 R2 without a doubt do not require EQ. With my equipment anyway.


 

 +1 on LCD-2.2 with my gear as well. In general, I think that adding bass with EQ will mess up the overall SQ of the HP. Easing off the bass does less interference overall. Lot harder to add bass without disrupting the overall musicality, imo. But to each his own, I guess.


----------



## BassDigger

strreamix said:


> Anyone with a LCD-2 Rev 2 with an amp+dac that can hit the* 7 Hz note* in "Bass, I love you". If you think you're up for the challenge, PM me your email, I'll send you over a .flac off the song unless you have it yourself.
> 
> Point is, I am looking for the amp/dac combo that can achieve the lowest of the low bass and produce it with strength and accuracy. I know what it sounds like as* the subwoofer in my car is tuned to 21 Hz and is able to hit the note*.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi strreamix, I've been reading through a few of your posts, around this forum. It seems like we have very similar preferences. (I hope that my screen name hints at what I'm talking about.)
  
 I'll try and discuss the various elements that you've raised, in other threads, as I find the time.
 But, first I just wanted to do a bit of a 'reality check'.
 7Hz?!? Really? Your other posts seem quite sane and reasonable. Maybe I'm misunderstanding; I don't get this statement. I know that you're aware that WAV recordings cut-off at 20Hz. I think that DVD audio goes to 15Hz. Maybe master tapes go lower. But as far as I'm aware, to experience these kind of low notes, you need something live; not a recording.
 Also, if your car system really is producing a full-on 7Hz note, it probably wouldn't do you much good; a French scientist found this out, the hard way, via an experiment with a huge whistle, some years back.
  
 Anyway, a 'problem' (that we share) is that the deepest notes are felt, as much as they are heard. This puts headphones at a distinct disadvantage, when compared to speakers. When phones can reproduce those notes, most of the sensation is the cups rattling around on your head, rather than any 'flare-flapping', gut thumping, total immersion experience.
  
 But, as I think that we have both found, finding equipment that actually reproduces anything meaningful, below 50Hz, isn't easy. With speakers, it's just difficult (read expensive); hence the rarity of good bass. But with headphones, it seems to be a different problem, but it produces a similar result; transducers that just roll-off, or totally mis-represent the deepest notes. We appear (I note that you've now moved to some LCD3s) to have found the same (or similar) answer to our problem; some Audeze planars. (BTW, Your response from Audeze, mentioned elsewhere, is both disappointing and a concern!).
  
 I've previously tried the Denon D2000: rolled-off by 30Hz and the bass that they do produce is excessive, uncontrolled and lacking tunefulnessesesis _(sorry; got carried away). _Next was the Hifiman he400: dry, very fast and all impact and texture. They lacked warmth and rolled-off by about 35Hz.
 The LCD2 is sort of halfway between the two; they have the warmth that's missing from the he400, but they've got proper definition (and balance), unlike the D2000. But, I've got the fazor version. I haven't made any direct comparisons against the other phones, but I know that, with my current amp, they ain't going _all_ the way down! The bass extension seems similar to the other 2 phones. 
  
 How much of a trade-off the fazor is, I'd reeeeally like to know. I guess that there're some answers somewhere on this forum, but I haven't had the (search) luck, or reading time, to find them. All that I can say is that I'm very happy with the rest of the frequency spectrum (that the lcd2f reproduces); I'm finding, for the first time in many years of hifi 'experimentation', that equipment warm-up (along with the quality of the recording) is making a big difference to my listening sessions; the sound can become magical, but only after at least half an hour of listening. I think that this is testimony that I've found a reasonable level of transparency, and the lcd2f has only had a positive influence; indeed, it's been the final piece and a clear step up. Overall, I like the balance (I usually find headphones to be treble hot or bass shy), but ultimately the presence of the lowest octaves is somewhat lacking (so far).
  
 Back to the topic: my current amp (a Beyer A1 clone) is undoubtedly underpowering the lcd2; the real item is quoted at little more than 100mw! Not enough for planars!!! After a lot of head scratching (see http://www.head-fi.org/t/741024/he-400-bass-not-as-present-as-i-expected/60#post_11515919), I've eventually realised this, and I'm going to try the Gusturd H10 in the not too distant future. I was tempted (after reading some of this thread) to try a Krell clone (http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1z3o.7695460.14.28.JtH7sF&id=39227514703), but it's too much of an unknown, and needs more research. The Gustard is a quite well received V200 clone(ish). And of course, it's cheap!! I'm hoping that it will help the lcd2f find those lower octaves, and I'm anticipating that it will give a bit more bass impact and control. I'll find out in a few weeks.
  
_Dig (for) that bass._


----------



## Jeb Listens

white lotus said:


> And..?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Hi there White-Lotus! 
  
 I'm interested in this approach! - If you are using software EQ - would you mind sharing how you find best to implement this on a frequency curve whilst causing minimum disruption to the rest of the sound ?  I haven't found a satisfactory way to do it yet but I think this might well be more a reflection of my lack of skills/knowledge. 
  
 I understand if it's a secret recipe, though!
  
 Regards
  
 Jeb.


----------



## DDDamian

bassdigger said:


> After a lot of head scratching (see http://www.head-fi.org/t/741024/he-400-bass-not-as-present-as-i-expected/60#post_11515919), I've eventually realised this, and I'm going to try the Gusturd H10 in the not too distant future. I was tempted (after reading some of this thread) to try a Krell clone (http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1z3o.7695460.14.28.JtH7sF&id=39227514703), but it's too much of an unknown, and needs more research. The Gustard is a quite well received V200 clone(ish). And of course, it's cheap!! I'm hoping that it will help the lcd2f find those lower octaves, and I'm anticipating that it will give a bit more bass impact and control. I'll find out in a few weeks.
> 
> _Dig (for) that bass._


 
 The Gustard H-10 is a nice amp with my pre-fazor late 2013 2.2's. Quite warm while still retaining detail, and power to spare. Hope you enjoy the sound!


----------



## Arnotts

bassdigger said:


> _Dig (for) that bass._


 


dddamian said:


> The Gustard H-10 is a nice amp with my pre-fazor late 2013 2.2's. Quite warm while still retaining detail, and power to spare. Hope you enjoy the sound!


 
 I love electronic music (and all music in general, but electronic makes up a significant part of my current listening songs), as you should be able to tell from my avatar.
  
 The issue of FEELING the bass (which is an experience that headphones can never truly give you), like with a powerful speaker system, was solved for me by using the SubPac S2.
  
 The experience I get from listening to music with my LCD-X's (and also LCD-2's to a lesser extent) along with the SubPac is absolutely incredible. Could not recommend any more highly


----------



## BassDigger

arnotts said:


> Spoiler: Text
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 SubPac?!? Is it more neighbour friendly than fitting a seat to a sub-woofer?


----------



## Arnotts

bassdigger said:


> SubPac?!? Is it more neighbour friendly than fitting a seat to a sub-woofer?


 
 Much more neighbour friendly 
  
 When it's set up to be "neutral" even someone sitting next to you wouldn't notice it. You can of course increase the intensity to increase the impact even more without annoying anyone, but I don't personally do this. It feels like a natural extension of headphone bass (especially once you set it up properly). You also hear more bass because of bone-conduction.
  
 The Subpac is much more than a gimmick, it's a good replacement for a studio subwoofer in an acoustically treated room.
  
 I had been searching for the experience of listening to EDM on a high-end speaker system, but with headphones so as to not disturb everyone else in the house. The LCD-X's + SubPac gives me this experience (although I have no doubt that different headphones without such a high price tag would do extremely well, too).
  
 Also, in terms of making the headphones sound "speaker-like", the H10 is not the best pairing. The H10 is a nice, powerful, smooth amp, but it provides a more intimate, closer sound.
  
 EDIT: To be honest, I think a lot of peoples issues with headphone bass would be solved with something like the Subpac. A lot of people are chasing truly impactful bass, when headphones are always going to leave you wanting in that area.


----------



## marcan

Right, while having a lots of benefits, one of the main drawback of headphones is the lake of physical perception. It starts at around 200hz and below 40hz sounds are rather felt than heard. That's why imo headphones have to compensate in the bass region.
 Never tried a subpack but I red few testimony of people using it on gearslutz who said it was great. A friend of mine tried it but told me he had an annoying delay. I should be able to fix it with foobar because I have more than two channels output on my DAC.
 So it's on target


----------



## BassDigger

@Arnotts
  
 Verrrrrry interesting suggestion; I've been thinking about some sort of similar solution (hence the sub/seat idea 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ).
  
 I've got some queries that maybe you could help with. To save cluttering this this thread with more OT I've posted a question on the most recent Subpac thread that I could find:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/708899/subpac-for-sub-referencing#post_11754149
  
 Yours, and anybody else's, input would be most welcome.


----------



## marcan

Just for the record, I tried few times ago a solution with a subwoofer but there was insoluble phase issues and the bass reflection of the sub just ruined the precision of the bass from the audeze. So don't bother.


----------



## Vosegus

do you guys think my NFB15 can power the LCD2 properly??


----------



## LancerFIN

vosegus said:


> do you guys think my NFB15 can power the LCD2 properly??


 
 For the money it works well. Gustard H10 $300-350 was quite big improvement but you need DAC so total price would be $500ish compared to less than $300 for shipped NFB-15.


----------



## Jeangenie

is there a consensus on if we should run the lyr 2 on low or hi gain for the lcd 2.2?


----------



## petezjunior

Please don't listen to him. The nfb is good enough. Anyone telling you that you need to spend more and more is just lying through his teeth. Don't worry just get the nfb and you'll be fine.


----------



## DDDamian

petezjunior said:


> Please don't listen to him. The gustard is good enough. Anyone telling you that you need to spend more and more is just lying through his teeth. Don't worry just get the nfb and you'll be fine.




Huh? I think I missed something.


----------



## Gibsonmac

vosegus said:


> do you guys think my NFB15 can power the LCD2 properly??


properly? Well it should be able to drive the LCD2. Will it drive them optimally? I highly doubt it, but if it sounds good enough for you, then that's all that really matters. 

I've had mine plugged into all manner of amps, and while it sounded perfectly adequate on something like the Lyr2, the LCD2 sounds much better, to me, on the WA6SE.


----------



## petezjunior

Smh the NFB is perfectly fine to drive the lcd 2 at 1-2 o clock and high gain. You'll be fine. Please stop recommending 500 + amps for the lcd 2. There are plenty of amps and dacs under 500 that can PROPERLY drive the lcd 2. Take it from an audio engineer.


----------



## Gibsonmac

petezjunior said:


> Smh the NFB is perfectly fine to drive the lcd 2 at 1-2 o clock and high gain. You'll be fine. Please stop recommending 500 + amps for the lcd 2. There are plenty of amps and dacs under 500 that can PROPERLY drive the lcd 2. Take it from an audio engineer.


Well I guess that settles it guys... The 'audio engineer' has spoken!! Guess it's time we all sell our $500+ amps and DACs if you have an LCD2... SPREAD THE WORD!


----------



## petezjunior

gibsonmac said:


> Well I guess that settles it guys... The 'audio engineer' has spoken!! Guess it's time we all sell our $500+ amps and DACs if you have an LCD2... SPREAD THE WORD!




I just told you what I do. I can back it up with information and stats. What will you say besides the fact that you're an "audiophile" and use the information on this website as your own personal Bible.


----------



## echineko

I actually own a Lyr 2, and it seems to sound just fine with my LCD 2. But I gotta admit, I'd love to demo a WA6SE or the like to see if it sounds different, and if so, if I prefer it. I don't need a telephone directory full of measurements to decide if its my kind of sound signarture, but now I am motivated to do some proper amplifier auditioning after reading the recent posts 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Good luck finding your audio nirvana, guys


----------



## Jeangenie

echineko said:


> I actually own a Lyr 2, and it seems to sound just fine with my LCD 2. But I gotta admit, I'd love to demo a WA6SE or the like to see if it sounds different, and if so, if I prefer it. I don't need a telephone directory full of measurements to decide if its my kind of sound signarture, but now I am motivated to do some proper amplifier auditioning after reading the recent posts
> 
> Good luck finding your audio nirvana, guys




Low gain or high gain?


----------



## echineko

jeangenie said:


> Low gain or high gain?


 
 Was on low so far, reading the comments earlier I just switched it to high, waiting for it to warm up and try


----------



## Jeangenie

echineko said:


> Was on low so far, reading the comments earlier I just switched it to high, waiting for it to warm up and try


 

 nice, let me know what you think!


----------



## echineko

jeangenie said:


> nice, let me know what you think!


 
 I seem to like high gain. There's either a slight difference, or a placebo effect, but I definitely prefer this sound compared to previously. Will mess about with it more over the week, but for now I think I've found what works for me


----------



## Jeangenie

yeah it's funny, I tried both also, and I didn't want to tell you how I felt about it until you tried to avoid swaying your opinion consciously/subconsciously; I found no difference between lo/high


----------



## diamondears

Why don't the manufacturers just invent how to create a 2-way or 3-way HP with 1 driver as sub-woofer. If they coukd make it in an IEM, why not on a HP?


----------



## Audiogalore

echineko said:


> I seem to like high gain. There's either a slight difference, or a placebo effect, but I definitely prefer this sound compared to previously. Will mess about with it more over the week, but for now I think I've found what works for me


 
 Yes Jack Woo has admit that the LCD2 performs better and has more control and dymanics in the high gain circuit even though the LCD2 is a 70 ohms transducer and technically should be low gain impedance setting.
  
 Enjoy music!


----------



## echineko

audiogalore said:


> Yes Jack Woo has admit that the LCD2 performs better and has more control and dymanics in the high gain circuit even though the LCD2 is a 70 ohms transducer and technically should be low gain impedance setting.
> 
> Enjoy music!



Totally agree with the general sentiment of your post, one thing though, I'm using a Lyr 2, what's Jack Woo got to do with it, though I'm sure he's perfectly reliable in his own right


----------



## Audiogalore

echineko said:


> Totally agree with the general sentiment of your post, one thing though, I'm using a Lyr 2, what's Jack Woo got to do with it, though I'm sure he's perfectly reliable in his own right


 
 I was only giving you some info pertaining the demo of the WA6SE that you made mentioned


----------



## echineko

audiogalore said:


> I was only giving you some info pertaining the demo of the WA6SE that you made mentioned


 
 Haha, got it, thanks


----------



## Gibsonmac

echineko said:


> I seem to like high gain. There's either a slight difference, or a placebo effect, but I definitely prefer this sound compared to previously. Will mess about with it more over the week, but for now I think I've found what works for me


 I always use high-gain on the Lyr with planars, they like power. Play around with tubes, the Lyr is really responsive to tube rolling. 



petezjunior said:


> I just told you what I do. I can back it up with information and stats. What will you say besides the fact that you're an "audiophile" and use the information on this website as your own personal Bible.



As to Mr. 'THE AUTHORITY' of sound, there is so much more to it then numbers on a spec sheet. There is a reason why the HE-6 sounds like complete dog **** on some amps that *should be able to drive them to perfection according to the numbers, yet sounds like pure bliss on others. Not to mention everyone looks for different things in what they want out of their gear, sound quality differs from amp to amp. Some people love their LCD2 with a simple O2, some people love the Lyr2, others swear by the Taurus mkII. Guess what, they all sound different, they all bring something different to the table, I've had them all in my home, I've put them head to head, and I chose the WA6SE. I used this site to narrow the selection down from, every headphone amp ever made, to 5 that are generally thought to pair well; then I bought or rented them and decided what I liked the best. As a 20 year studio musician, who has spent a fair amount of time behind the board and with pro-tools, I'm fairly confident I'm able to figure out my own listening preferences. 

 Maybe it all sounds the same to you because your ears are not the most discerning, or maybe it's just that YOUR listening preferences tell YOU the NFB is a good match. Because guess what, we all hear things a little differently and have sensitivities to different frequencies.


----------



## LancerFIN

I didn't say NFB-15 was bad. It's good for the money. Spending more of course gets you better gear. I was happy when I upgraded from NFB-15 to Gustard H10.


----------



## Vosegus

Thank you guys for the answers about my NFB15 
 I actually own it already and tested the LCD2 with it, and I liked the sound very much as a matter of fact.
 The price was just right for me, for this powerfull amp and a dac...300$..its doesnt get any better than that. I really wanted the Lyr2, but I was on budget..and I simply cant see myself shell out more money on an amp than on my headphones...


----------



## White Lotus

lancerfin said:


> Spending more of course gets you better gear.


 
  
 I would be wary of using this as a rule of thumb!


----------



## LancerFIN

white lotus said:


> I would be wary of using this as a rule of thumb!


More expensive isn't always better is true. That's why forums like this are good. We already know the products where price and performance are good. 

Try using high gain on NFB-15. It makes notable difference in sound quality. Mostly in subbass. Sound gets loud really quick but the Alps volume pot is good. No problem with channel imbalance.


----------



## petezjunior

gibsonmac said:


> I always use high-gain on the Lyr with planars, they like power. Play around with tubes, the Lyr is really responsive to tube rolling.
> As to Mr. 'THE AUTHORITY' of sound, there is so much more to it then numbers on a spec sheet. There is a reason why the HE-6 sounds like complete dog **** on some amps that *should be able to drive them to perfection according to the numbers, yet sounds like pure bliss on others. Not to mention everyone looks for different things in what they want out of their gear, sound quality differs from amp to amp. Some people love their LCD2 with a simple O2, some people love the Lyr2, others swear by the Taurus mkII. Guess what, they all sound different, they all bring something different to the table, I've had them all in my home, I've put them head to head, and I chose the WA6SE. I used this site to narrow the selection down from, every headphone amp ever made, to 5 that are generally thought to pair well; then I bought or rented them and decided what I liked the best. As a 20 year studio musician, who has spent a fair amount of time behind the board and with pro-tools, I'm fairly confident I'm able to figure out my own listening preferences.
> 
> Maybe it all sounds the same to you because your ears are not the most discerning, or maybe it's just that YOUR listening preferences tell YOU the NFB is a good match. Because guess what, we all hear things a little differently and have sensitivities to different frequencies.





Tldr: "I'm wrong and still don't know anything about high fidelity."


----------



## CanadianMaestro

1. Trust your ears. Not the specs. Some great-sounding gear have avg specs on paper. And vice versa. Audition when possible.
 2. Synergy is key.
 3. Very little correlation exists between price and auditory satisfaction.
 4. Law of diminishing returns. Once you get near the top of the food chain, every $ spent gets you less back in net performance boost.
  
 cheers


----------



## Gibsonmac

canadianmaestro said:


> 1. Trust your ears. Not the specs. Some great-sounding gear have avg specs on paper. And vice versa. Audition when possible.
> 2. Synergy is key.
> 3. Very little correlation exists between price and auditory satisfaction.
> 4. Law of diminishing returns. Once you get near the top of the food chain, every $ spent gets you less back in net performance boost.
> ...



So very true. Especially with diminishing returns... Just because something costs twice as much, doesn't mean it's twice as good(though sometimes it can). When I auditioned A/B the LCD2 and LCD3 through The Cable Co. lending library, I honest to God preferred the LCD2 with my setup, just better synergy to my ears, and the LCD2 costs half as much as the 3. It's all so subjective anyway, ymmv and all that.


----------



## CanadianMaestro

gibsonmac said:


> So very true. Especially with diminishing returns... Just because something costs twice as much, doesn't mean it's twice as good(though sometimes it can). When I auditioned the LCD2 and LCD3 through The Cable Co. lending library, I honest to God preferred the LCD2 with my setup, just better synergy to my ears, and the LCD2 costs half as much as the 3. It's all so subjective anyway, ymmv and all that.


 

 +1.  I did not like the LCD-3, and its price vs. LCD-2.2 exemplifies the Law of DR.


----------



## marcan

canadianmaestro said:


> +1.  I did not like the LCD-3, and its price vs. LCD-2.2 exemplifies the Law of DR.


 
 +1


----------



## DDDamian

canadianmaestro said:


> +1.  I did not like the LCD-3, and its price vs. LCD-2.2 exemplifies the Law of DR.


 
 @mikoss felt the same way. So glad I didn't pony-up the extra grand. Ofc there'll be a ton of dissenters - Tyll (himself!) claims the 3 does just about everything better.


----------



## CanadianMaestro

dddamian said:


> @mikoss felt the same way. So glad I didn't pony-up the extra grand. Ofc there'll be a ton of dissenters - Tyll (himself!) claims the 3 does just about everything better.


 

 If I remember right, Tyll also said that, if LCD-3 did not exist, he still would be quite content to live with the LCD-2 as a flagship-calibre HP. Hinting perhaps that the diff he heard may not be substantial to warrant the diff in moola back then.


----------



## DDDamian

canadianmaestro said:


> If I remember right, Tyll also said that, if LCD-3 did not exist, he still would be quite content to live with the LCD-2 as a flagship-calibre HP. Hinting perhaps that the diff he heard may not be substantial to warrant the diff in moola back then.


 
 Quite right. Sounds like we're both happy with the LCD-2. IMO they're desert-island calibre.


----------



## Vosegus

I really liked the synergy between the NFB15 and the LCD2. Maybe, in retro perspective, I would get a NFB11 but im really satisfied with my current setup ^_^


----------



## marcan

dddamian said:


> Quite right. Sounds like we're both happy with the LCD-2. IMO they're desert-island calibre.


 
 I wouldn't exchange my LCD-2.2 with two LCD-3


----------



## DDDamian

marcan said:


> I wouldn't exchange my LCD-2.2 with two LCD-3


 
 Heh - me too. I hear there's those actively seeking out some of the pre-fazors - can see them becoming some of the more sought-after cans. I for one have no intention of upgrading mine to the fazor model. True - they don't image as well as some cans (my AKG's image better and my HD-800's are on the way) but there's little I would want to change about them. Not if it means sacrificing any of what they do well now.


----------



## LancerFIN

When you are talking about LCD-2 being better than LCD-3, I guess you are talking about Rev2? LCD-2F vs LCD-3F?
  
 I need to find European person who would trade my LCD-2F to LCD2.2. Mine are still under warranty till 4-11-17


----------



## DDDamian

lancerfin said:


> When you are talking about LCD-2 being better than LCD-3, I guess you are talking about Rev2? LCD-2F vs LCD-3F?
> 
> I need to find European person who would trade my LCD-2F to LCD2.2. Mine are still under warranty till 4-11-17


 
 I think you'll find many different answers to the first question. There are many who love the 3F. Another issue will be that even within the same variant of LCD they are not all alike - part of the Audeze legacy will be that no two pairs are exactly the same, and according to Tyll at InnerFidelity there seems to be a trend over time in their toning.
  
 If you really want to do what you say in the second line - give the classifieds a whirl. To upgrade to fazors is USD$250 and shipping both ways, plus you lose your headphones for a few weeks (from Europe). There may also be things you'll miss: the fazors were said to improve imaging. Tough call only you can make.


----------



## Audiogalore

gibsonmac said:


> So very true. Especially with diminishing returns... Just because something costs twice as much, doesn't mean it's twice as good(though sometimes it can). When I auditioned A/B the LCD2 and LCD3 through The Cable Co. lending library, I honest to God preferred the LCD2 with my setup, just better synergy to my ears, and the LCD2 costs half as much as the 3. It's all so subjective anyway, ymmv and all that.


 
 I found the same!


----------



## JK-47

diamondears said:


> Why don't the manufacturers just invent how to create a 2-way or 3-way HP with 1 driver as sub-woofer. If they coukd make it in an IEM, why not on a HP?


 

 JVC SZ1000/2000....


----------



## psgarcha92

Dear Head-fi brethren,
  
 I took the plunge, and brought myself an Audeze LCD-2 Rev2. The only natural progression from that point onwards seemed to be buying a Schiit Lyr. Deed's done, people. 
  
 Now. I have been looking into hifi audio for quite some time now. The one weak link it seems in my chain now, is the DAC. At the moment I use an iPod Video 5G, LOD with caps, and I am currently waiting for the front plate and back plate to arrive, to perform the diyMod on it. Needless to say it still wont be hifi as it wont be decoding 192khz/24bit files. 
  
 I was planning to get a hold on an Audio-GD NFB 15.32 but Audio-gd have not replied to my mail yet. 
  
 My question is, is the Fiio-X3 ii worthwile for my setup? Or should I go for desktop size sources only?
  
  
 TL;DR: Have the LCD 2.2, Schiit Lyr. Need a DAC. Should I go for full size DAC or is it ok going for the Fiio X3 ii? Please suggest DACs.
  
 Please Note I have a budget of ~300USD, not more.
  
 Regards


----------



## x RELIC x

For what it's worth I use the FiiO X5 Line Out to my desktop amp sometimes and I like the sound. FiiO does a great job with the Line Out implementation in their DACs but I haven't heard the X3ii directly. The X5 and X5ii Line Out are fantastic though.


----------



## psgarcha92

Hey! 
 I just found a Cambridge Dacmagic Plus selling for 400 Dollars (Canadian) in my area. The NFB15.32 will fall in the same range almost. The DacMagic Plus has balanced out, which I plan to implement in the future diying a Balanced AMP. The Audio-gd on the other hand has a good AMP section. Which comes down to me owning 2 amplifiers, the Lyr (hybrid) and NFB 15.32 (SS). I would actually like to see how this makes my LCD 2.2 sound different.
  
 WOW this got even more difficult now. Budget is a max of 400 CDN, haveto decide between Audio-gd NFB 15.32 (if Audio-Gd replies, that is), Cambridge Dacmagic Plus, and Fiio X3ii.
  
 Damn.


----------



## Lohb

psgarcha92 said:


> Dear Head-fi brethren,
> 
> I took the plunge, and brought myself an Audeze LCD-2 Rev2. The only natural progression from that point onwards seemed to be buying a Schiit Lyr. Deed's done, people.
> 
> ...


 

 Check out Caiman Mk2 DAC, you will get the outside UK discount (-20% VAT) that will offset shipping. It will ship from Taiwan. It will help address sound-stage/imaging v Fazor sound-stage/imaging abilities _to a degree._
_DIY Fazor (if you are a geek and like to mod stuff) with the savings - http://www.head-fi.org/t/618659/fostex-t50rp-incremental-mods-and-measurements/1425#post_11113216_


----------



## Synthax

Full size expensive LCD headphones deserves desktop tube amp with output transformers.


----------



## x RELIC x

psgarcha92 said:


> Hey!
> I just found a Cambridge Dacmagic Plus selling for 400 Dollars (Canadian) in my area. The NFB15.32 will fall in the same range almost. The DacMagic Plus has balanced out, which I plan to implement in the future diying a Balanced AMP. The Audio-gd on the other hand has a good AMP section. Which comes down to me owning 2 amplifiers, the Lyr (hybrid) and NFB 15.32 (SS). I would actually like to see how this makes my LCD 2.2 sound different.
> 
> WOW this got even more difficult now. Budget is a max of 400 CDN, haveto decide between Audio-gd NFB 15.32 (if Audio-Gd replies, that is), Cambridge Dacmagic Plus, and Fiio X3ii.
> ...




The Dacmagic Plus has a lot of features you're paying for that you need to consider if you'll use. For example with the lyr you won't be using the balanced output of the Dacmagic Plus. On the other hand you may enjoy the convenience of the Bluetooth feature.

X3ii gets you a very good portable player (for the price) as well as a DAC and source to feed your headphone amp.

Audio-GD NFB15.32 is fairly inexpensive for what you get and Audio-GD makes good equipment. The fact that it has a dual DAC design is nice and the amp could be good for a different flavour from your lyr now and again. I've heard good things about the NFB15.32, and it has enough power for the LCD-2.

Strange they aren't responding as I just bought the Audio-GD DAC-19 (10th Anv) yesterday and have had a few responses from them.


----------



## jodgey4

Make sure you're using the right email address with Audio-GD. "The Great Firewall" in China will also sometimes block emails, and A-GD will never know about it. *snide comment about surveillance here*


----------



## psgarcha92

Wow! Head fi at its best!
  
 Can you help me decide then. How much of a difference does balanced actually make? I just got a reply from Audio-GD. Just have to pull the trigger now. 
 I have RE272s which i always wanted to try balanced. I now have this lovely LCD 2.2 that I would want to run balanced. Anybody with some experience with Balanced LCD 2.2 here? 
  
 Another thing that i just recently became aware of, is USB Jitter in DACs. Now, the Audio-gd has USB32. The Dacmagic plus on the other hand, the much smoother Optical in. My laptop happens to have Optical out. The Audio-gd appeals to me more because of the amp section. But if there would be jitters i would really like to go with the other DAC.
  
 Thanks for the fazer mod, brother. This is why i like Head Fi
  
 Regards


----------



## x RELIC x

psgarcha92 said:


> Wow! Head fi at its best!
> 
> Can you help me decide then. How much of a difference does balanced actually make? I just got a reply from Audio-GD. Just have to pull the trigger now.
> I have RE272s which i always wanted to try balanced. I now have this lovely LCD 2.2 that I would want to run balanced. Anybody with some experience with Balanced LCD 2.2 here?
> ...




Well, this isn't going to help but the Audio-GD has asynchronous USB which is how it controls jitter, like most every other USB input on most every other DAC. Almost all modern DACs handle jitter pretty well IMO and all digital media needs to deal with jitter. Oh, and there is also optical and coaxial input on the NFB15.32. Audio-GD wouldn't produce a DAC that had poor jitter IMO.

I run the LCD-2 balanced out of my Oppo HA-1 and the biggest difference is 4x the output power running balanced vs single ended on the Oppo unit. There's also common ground noise rejection inherent in a balanced chain which helps clean up noise in the signal path. I really like the sound from balanced output to the planar cans, but YMMV.

Edit: Optical SPDIF is more prone to jitter than coaxial SPDIF, but effectively isolates all form of EMI.


----------



## psgarcha92

My bad, i should have researched before saying that NFB 15 doesnt have Optical in.
 Would you please be kind enough to describe the differences between SE and Balanced configurations in your setup? In what way does the sound change else than being cleaner?
  
 Regards


----------



## x RELIC x

The primary effect of balanced is more power. More power with the Audeze headphones results in more dynamic range. The lyr has more than enough power already so for you power is not a requirement from balanced output.

This is from Audeze regarding amp requirements for the LCD-2:

_"When deciding what amp to buy It is very subjective and opinions vary a lot. Here are some thoughts on selecting a good amplifiers
for LCD-2. We have tested the LCD-2 with quite a number of studios and recording engineers.

The LCD-2 has an impedance of 50 ohms, which is purely resistive and is almost perfectly flat across the entire frequency range.http://www.audeze.com/2009/12/waterfall-plots-low-frequency-extensi...

Lets us say you listen to symphony-orchestra. This type of music can have dynamic range of 60 dB. i.e if silence (room noise) is at 60 dB (LCD-2 is pen type headphone design with almost no attenuation of ambient noise) and the maximum occasional peak needs to be 120 dB. I am just giving an example here, but depending upon the type of music and the recording this varies. 120 dB is very loud - almost Rock Concert level close to the speaker.

For the LCD-2, if you put 1 mw of power, you get about 90dB output. For this example, let us assume 90dB is the level you listen normally. To reproduce the occasional 120 dB peak without clipping on the LCD-2, the amplifier would have to output 1000 times more power than 1mw, i.e 1 W.

So, an amplifier that can output 1w is the bare minimum. Amplifiers will have distortion metrics at different wattage levels. If an amp can output maximum 1w it would be barely sufficient and might have a lot of distortion at full output.

So I would suggest an Amp that would at least be able to provide a couple of watts of output without any clipping. Damping in amplifiers is not a big problem for LCD-2 since the impedance doesn't vary."_


For noise rejection it helps with the clarity of the signal which helps the sense of imaging and placement of instruments and sense of soundstage. The difference from SE to balanced can be subtle in this regard though, however I enjoy it over single ended. When volume matched the differences between balanced and SE output aren't as large as one may think if there is enough power in both applications.


----------



## BassDigger

synthax said:


> Full size expensive LCD headphones deserves desktop tube amp with output transformers.


 
  






 One day, I'll have such an amp!!!


----------



## marcan

According to my experience with my Bryston BHA-1 the balanced output is really better.
 Level matching is trivial on the brysto because you have hi/low gain of exactly 6db which is the gain you have with the balanced output. So for me balanced is really better in all the department:. Definition, separation, soundstage, bass treble and mainly authority.
 LCD 2.2 really shine with balanced output and on my setup its really more than subtle.
 I think that an important part of the virtue comes from the push/pull nature of the balanced amplification.


----------



## BassDigger

I really don't know about the Bryston, but some amps, with both balanced and unbalanced connections, are very biased towards the balanced output, in their design._ (I've realised that i may be repeating someone else. But I haven't the time to read this entire thread. Sorry.) _Some balanced amps are just half an amp, when you use their unbalanced connection.
  
 It's quite a controversial topic; some learned people say that a balanced design is actually worse than a proper unbalanced design; it supposedly doubles an amplifier's bad attributes, whilst gaining little advantage.
  
 I guess you've just got to go with what sounds best (after finding some good advice, first!).
  
 Has anybody put together a list of LCD2 amplifier top recommendations, anywhere?


----------



## x RELIC x

marcan said:


> According to my experience with my Bryston BHA-1 the balanced output is really better.
> Level matching is trivial on the brysto because you have hi/low gain of exactly 6db which is the gain you have with the balanced output. So for me balanced is really better in all the department:. Definition, separation, soundstage, bass treble and mainly authority.
> LCD 2.2 really shine with balanced output and on my setup its really more than subtle.
> I think that an important part of the virtue comes from the push/pull nature of the balanced amplification.




I'd never say level matching is trivial but regardless, some amps will show a larger difference than others switching between balanced and SE. It all depends on the topology. If the SE output is derived from the balanced path then the differences will seem less than having SE on a separate path (I don't know how the Bryston implements their SE). If the SE path has enough juice to drive the required load then it will sound very close. Typically a SE amp output doesn't have the juice so it's very noticble.

If the SE (of the lyr) and balanced (of another amp) have _comparable power output_ the difference is minimal when volume matched. Typically more power from a balanced output will drive the LCD-2 with better authority than a weaker SE output. But the lyr is already more than powerful enough to take control of the drivers so the benefits of common ground noise rejection really becomes the focus. In my experience it isn't huge, but I do prefer the result. Of course your experiences may be different.


----------



## Lohb

bassdigger said:


> Has anybody put together a list of LCD2 amplifier top recommendations, anywhere?


 
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/716576/head-fis-favourite-amp-for-the-audeze-lcd-2-200-1000-poll


----------



## marcan

x relic x said:


> I'd never say level matching is trivial but regardless, some amps will show a larger difference than others switching between balanced and SE. It all depends on the topology. If the SE output is derived from the balanced path then the differences will seem less than having SE on a separate path (I don't know how the Bryston implements their SE). If the SE path has enough juice to drive the required load then it will sound very close. Typically a SE amp output doesn't have the juice so it's very noticble.
> 
> If the SE (of the lyr) and balanced (of another amp) have _comparable power output_ the difference is minimal when volume matched. Typically more power from a balanced output will drive the LCD-2 with better authority than a weaker SE output. But the lyr is already more than powerful enough to take control of the drivers so the benefits of common ground noise rejection really becomes the focus. In my experience it isn't huge, but I do prefer the result. Of course your experiences may be different.


 
 I just said that level matching is trivial *on the brysto* because the balanced output double the power and passing from high to low gain divide the power by two. The SE implementation of the brysto simply uses half of the amp (the other half is exclusively used on the pull with the balanced output). The power in SE is 1 watt per channel which is enough for the LCD 2.2. 
 In the end you have to compare by yourself and see what you prefer. If you already have a balanced output just get the balanced cable to try.
 I highly recommend the Bryston BHA-1. With the LCD 2.2, in balanced output it's a combo made for heaven. I know that the price is > 1000$ but you can try to catch one on the second hand market < 1000$. With 20 years warranty you don't have to worry


----------



## JamesBr

lohb said:


> http://www.head-fi.org/t/716576/head-fis-favourite-amp-for-the-audeze-lcd-2-200-1000-poll


 
  
 +1


----------



## cjc

So the Lyr 2 is the most favorite recommended amp for the Audeze LCD-2.
 Has anybody compared it to the Asgard 2 ?


----------



## porridgecup

Just a quick testimony for the BHA-1 and LCD-2 combo:
  
 I am very glad I followed this advice. I've been using this amp with the LCD-2 (pre-Fazor) for 3 or 4 months now. The pairing is phenomenal and really brings the LCD-2 to life more than anything else I've tried. I do have to set the volume knob to at least like 7-8 o clock to start getting the full potential, but I think that's probably standard with many amps. It scales incredibly well at any volume beyond that point. The bass in particular is absolutely perfect and shatteringly intense, both in amount and quality, especially on well-produced and well-mastered recordings.


----------



## DDDamian

porridgecup said:


> Just a quick testimony for the BHA-1 and LCD-2 combo:
> 
> I am very glad I followed this advice. I've been using this amp with the LCD-2 (pre-Fazor) for 3 or 4 months now. The pairing is phenomenal and really brings the LCD-2 to life more than anything else I've tried. I do have to set the volume knob to at least like 7-8 o clock to start getting the full potential, but I think that's probably standard with many amps. It scales incredibly well at any volume beyond that point. The bass in particular is absolutely perfect and shatteringly intense, both in amount and quality, especially on well-produced and well-mastered recordings.


 
 That's awesome news!!! I literally just got back from the post office and plugged in my BHA-1 to my LCD2.2(pre-fazor)'s!! Just warming it up and can't believe I just saw this post lol. What's the odds?? Supposed to be great with the HD-800's too - my other go-to pair right now.
  
 This calls for a beer


----------



## BassDigger

How does the BHA-1 compare to the BH s.e.x.?


----------



## DDDamian

bassdigger said:


> How does the BHA-1 compare to the BH s.e.x.?


 
 Will have to keep you eating popcorn just a bit longer lol - still in my first hour with the unit so a little unfair  It's used - got it from a great Head-Fi'er here via CAM, so it's already burned in. Give me a couple days with it and I'll compare the two.
  
 Right now the chain is: Foobar>ASIO>Teac UD-501>Solid silver RCA>BHA-1>Moon Audio BD balanced XLR>LCD2.2(pre-fazor)
  
 Waiting for a good-quality pair of 0.5m XLR interconnects to arrive (that might be a week or so) before I can go fully-balanced through, but will compare all-SE out of fairness to the S.E.X., and then the fully balanced BHA-1 chain just 'cause 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 Edit: P.S. the unit was factory modded to drop the gain on the Low Gain setting so using High Gain with the LCD's.
  
 Edit: P.P.S. the S.E.X. is a 2.0 with upgraded iron to match the 2.1's output transformers (huge improvement) and has Mundorf Supremes in the coupling and parafeed circuits (another definite plus over stock). Should be a nice contest and that brings them a little closer price-wise.


----------



## DDDamian

bassdigger said:


> How does the BHA-1 compare to the BH s.e.x.?


 
 Okay, initial impressions. In an icon: 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




!
  
 So far I would say: the overall sound is as close as can be between the two amps. I love the S.E.X for it's dynamics and tone. I would say the S.E.X. seems just a little more dynamic in natural sounds, e.g. when a guitar string is plucked the reverberation and decay just seem a little more natural, and the attack just a little less digital. The BHA-1 seems to expand the soundstage just a little better - a result of the balanced connection? After upgrading the S.E.X the soundstage seemed to close in a bit, but that was more than offset by the added bass extension and control. The BHA-1 is the more accurate - no surprise with SS and very neutral - nothing pops out as forward or recessed - dead flat.
  
 Both have great PRaT and a live sound. I was worried the BHA-1 would be warm and a little duller like the Gustard H-10 - no worries there at all. At the same time that means any hiss or defects are coming straight through with no masking at all.
  
 Which would I give up over the other? So far neither. Both amazing. The BHA-1 has a 20-year warranty (!) and is as close to wire-with-gain as I've heard yet. The S.E.X does better with rougher recordings and just makes everything sound great without compromising details or musicality. A touch more bass in the deeper end.
  
 Really both great amps! Like tubes the S.E.X is the winner, like to hear exactly what's in the recording good or bad, the BHA-1 is the winner (so far).
  
 Poor, poor me!


----------



## BassDigger

I thought that you were gonna give me some popcorn consumption time! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Well, thanks for your feedback!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 It seems that your description (as I understand it), of the bhsex, fits what a good tube amp does; it sounds natural, with realistic transients and dynamics. And maybe your description of the BHA describes a good SS design; it sounds clean, clear and very neutral. (Of course the very best amps, tube or SS, defy their tech, because they have no 'sound'.)
  
 Anyway, it seems that, at the mo', you prefer the BHA for its clarity; it resolves the treble extremes better. Is that correct?
 Your previous description, of the bhsex vs Gustard, suggests that you, like me, find that the Gustard lacks some fine treble detail. The BHsex improves on this, and then the BHA improves some more. (But hasn't quite got the bass of the of the BHsex.)
 That's my understanding of your findings.
  
 I guess, from that description, my preferences would lean towards the BHsex, for the extra bass. I'm finding that whilst the Gustard H10 has good bass, with plenty of extension, it sometimes lacks the fullness, power and body with the lcd2 fazors. Most of this is the lcd2, I guess. But, they did sound a little warmer and fuller with my other amp.
 My Gustard still has only 50 hours on it, so it's unfair to make a final conclusion. But I get the feeling that I'd prefer some improved treble and fuller bass (more weight and 'body'; it seems like there maybe a frequency dip, somewhere in the deep bass region), regardless of run in.
  
 So, both these amps would help with the treble (vs the Gustard), how about the bass?


----------



## DDDamian

What you've read into my scrambled first impressions is bang on.

in terms of treble resolution best to worse: BHA-1, Sex, H-10.
Bass extension and power: Sex, H-10, BHA-1

I think the treble resolution tilts the perceived FR towards brighter on the BHA-1, almost the opposite of the warm Gustard, but the BHA-1 comes across as more neutral. This would imply the H-10 is very warm which is my impression. Paired with the LCD2.2 the H-10 lacks much air or high detail, but sure can rumble. Paired with the 650 I found it too treble-shy.

So the Sex is left covering the middle here. In a good way. A bit miore tolerant of vinyl hiss, finely detailed and bass that is right in the zone for most I think. 

All three are good amps, but the H-10 showss its warm character a bit too much for my taste. The Sex will come across as more lively and musical with good depth, the BHA-1 oh so close, but a bit brighter still, with great resolution and very true to the source.

Hope that helps,


----------



## BassDigger

Thanks. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Just one thing; I wouldn't say that the H10 is warm sounding; it just has messy treble, with the highest frequencies being rolled off. I'd say it lacks treble extension; the overall balance is about right (so far), neither too warm nor too dry. Maybe you're saying that it's warm because it misses treble information that the other amps reproduce.
  
 Perhaps our definitions, our use of the adjective, my vary; 'warm', to me, means a little excessive from the lower mids downwards into the bass. Or alternatively, slightly lacking treble and upper mids.
  
 Maybe I'd say that the H10 treble is a bit on the 'safe' side. But, it still has too much mid (metallic, cymbals etc) to be really 'safe'. 
  
 Anyway, I'm very intrigued about the sexy BH!


----------



## DDDamian

Heh heh - we're working our way around words to the same thing. Let's go with rolled-off treble 
  
 If you've got the inclination to build I really can't recommend the BH Sex enough. And you won't be tempted to drop a mint on tubes. Roll a couple of caps if you feel like it. If you don't fancy a build then they do come up for sale every now and then, but nowhere near as often as the Crack. I think because the Crack is so very common and well-recommended for the 650's etc, and has so much DIY capability. But the Sex, once heard, just doesn't get sold on as much. It's that good lol. Can handle almost any can and efficient speakers, and can look mighty fine dolled up. Can't say enough about it


----------



## nicholars

How much power do the LCD-2 need to get good performance? The LCD-2 are 70 ohms, the only specs I can get for my amp are "Maximum Power, 32 ohms: 1.2W RMS per channel, Maximum Power, 50 ohms: 0.80 RMS per channel"... so I guess about 0.7w per channel at 70 ohms... Do you think that would be enough for decent performance? Or do they need at least xxx watts? Thanks


----------



## Vosegus

Im powering the LCD2 on low gain with the NFB15 with ease, on 1 o'clock it's tearing my ears apart.
 I think your amp will do but you probably want to get a beefier amp for headroom


----------



## BassDigger

A low powered amp will 'tear your ears apart' for all the wrong reasons; as it runs out of steam, it'll go into distortion sooner. Actually, I think the volume position is determined by the gain of the amp, as much as anything else.
  
 But saying that, I totally agree with Vosegus's recommendations. Your amp has enough power, but you may want to consider upgrading to something with at least twice the power, when you next satisfy your upgraditus.
  
 I used to drive my planar 'phones with a totally underpowered amp (about 150mw into 100 ohms), and for a long time I wasn't really sure if I needed to upgrade (Although, I didn't actually realise that the figure was so low). Driving the he400 I had to turn it up to 4 O'clock, a totally (minispeaker) insane listening level, and only with the bassiest, most power sapping, tracks could I hear any audible distortion! Incidentally, normal listening was @ about the 11 o'clock position.
  
 I then swapped to the lcd2f. I found that these phones had a softer, warmer sound, compared to the he400. The mid-range and treble is spot on, and the bass had the fullness that the he400 was lacking. The volume was mostly around the 10 o'clock position.
 Now I've changed to a Gustard H10, with around 10x the power of my other amp. The sound has taken on a much more 'hifiman like' presentation; the bass is now tight, punchy and fast. This is, no doubt, because of the extra power. The main purpose of power, in an audio amplifier, is control. The volume setting is now (@0 dip gain setting) usually around the 9 o'clock position.
  
 So, I guess, if you think that your lcd2 needs a bit more punch and speed, get a more powerful amp. If not, don't worry about it.


----------



## ghostchili

I just wrote a review on the Violectric V281. It's the best amp I've heard the LCD-2's on.
  
http://www.head-fi.org/products/violectric-hpa-v281/reviews/13835


----------



## marcan

ghostchili said:


> I just wrote a review on the Violectric V281. It's the best amp I've heard the LCD-2's on.
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/products/violectric-hpa-v281/reviews/13835


 
 So you prefer the Violectric V281 against the Bryston Bha-1?
 What was the difference?
 I guess you used the balanced output on both?


----------



## ghostchili

marcan said:


> So you prefer the Violectric V281 against the Bryston Bha-1?
> What was the difference?
> I guess you used the balanced output on both?




Yes balanced on both. The Bha-1 is a great amp. When I went from listening to my Schitt Lyr2 to the Bryston I was shocked how much better the Bha-1 sounded. I had the same reaction going from the Bryston to the Violectic. The V281 has more authority with maintaining a mega low noise floor. Everything sounds fuller.
Try this awesome review.

http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/authoritative-and-potent-violectric-v281-headphone-amplifier-page-2#SJiZEWjfYFIjWdfW.97


----------



## nicholars

The power specs of the bryston are not very good considering the size of the thing.


----------



## porridgecup

It is worth considering that the BHA-1 is $1400 and the V281 is $2300.


----------



## 13713

I am new to the headphone audio game but I had a chance to listen to the V281 a few days ago. Wow... truly an amazing amp. The pairings were with LCD-2 and HD800. If you can fork over the difference of whatever your looking at amp wise and the V281 then go for the V281 it is worth it.


----------



## echineko

Wondering if anyone on here has had a chance to audition or even purchase the new Mjolnir 2 from Schiit Audio? Seems an interesting amp, and I for one am curious how other Audeze owners like them (considering getting one for my LCD-2).
  
 Cheers!


----------



## cjc

Don't know about the Mjolnir, but my Asgard 2 does a splendid job paired with my LCD-2.


----------



## JK-47

echineko said:


> Wondering if anyone on here has had a chance to audition or even purchase the new Mjolnir 2 from Schiit Audio? Seems an interesting amp, and I for one am curious how other Audeze owners like them (considering getting one for my LCD-2).
> 
> Cheers!


 

 I'm listening to that combo right now in balanced mode. Very nice synergy...


----------



## nicholars

I am looking at the LCD-2, I keep reading they have a small soundstage.... Does the fazor improve the soundstage compared to the non fazor? Anyone compare the LCD-2 to the SRH 1540? How does the soundstage size compare? Or what about compared to the HD650?


----------



## cjc

The Audeze LCD-2 Fazor is more pleasing to me than the Sennheiser HD-650.
  I bought them BOTH about the same time and ended up returning the HD-650 and kept the LCD-2.
 They are both fantastic headphones but I like Audeze the most.
 Can't comment or give my opinion on the other headphone you are asking about.


----------



## JK-47

I have the LCD2.2F and the Senn HD650. The HD650 seems to be a bit more picky about the amp supplying the signal. My HD650 sounds much better out of my Elekit TU-8200DX than the Mojnir 2 (I tried balanced and single ended). My LCD2.2F sound fantastic with both amps. Over all it's too close to pick a favorite, but The HD650 gives up almost nothing in terms of sound quality (the LCD has a tighter low end, but the HD650 has nicer mids) if paired with an amp that it works well with.


----------



## White Lotus

nicholars said:


> I am looking at the LCD-2, I keep reading they have a small soundstage.... Does the fazor improve the soundstage compared to the non fazor? Anyone compare the LCD-2 to the SRH 1540? How does the soundstage size compare? Or what about compared to the HD650?


 
  
 I personally think the sound-stage is amazing. I didn't find it lacking compared to my HD600.


----------



## BassDigger

nicholars said:


> I am looking at the LCD-2, I keep reading they have a small soundstage.... Does the fazor improve the soundstage compared to the non fazor? Anyone compare the LCD-2 to the SRH 1540? How does the soundstage size compare? Or what about compared to the HD650?


 
  
 I've the fazors: they have great soundstage and are capable of amazing imaging!


----------



## DDDamian

Mine are the pre-fazor, and are a very in-close sound, much like the 650. If you want wider the HD-800 or AKG's are good, but very different sounds.


----------



## BassDigger

dddamian said:


> Mine are the pre-fazor, and are a very in-close sound, much like the 650. If you want wider the HD-800 or AKG's are good, but very different sounds.


 
  
 Maybe I got a bit carried away. But with a good live recording the audience 'sounds' come from way off to the left or right; they don't sound 'attached' to the drivers, at all.


----------



## DDDamian

bassdigger said:


> Maybe I got a bit carried away. But with a good live recording the audience 'sounds' come from way off to the left or right; they don't sound 'attached' to the drivers, at all.


 
 I'm guessing (well, more what I've read) that this is where the fazors really do help, along with the imaging. For mine I get great texture, bass and naturalness to the timbre and tone of instruments, but little imaging, separation and stage. I wish I had a fazor'd pair to try A/B'ing! That said, they can pry my classics out of my cold, dead hands lol.


----------



## marcan

pre fazor gets a deeper sound while fazor gives you a more detailed sound. I prefer the fisrt.


----------



## BassDigger

marcan said:


> pre fazor gets a deeper sound while fazor gives you a more detailed sound. I prefer the fisrt.


 
  
 Have you A/B tested them?


----------



## marcan

bassdigger said:


> Have you A/B tested them?


 
 Yes. I brought my LCD 2.2 and compared it to LCD2, LCDX and LCD3 (all fazor).


----------



## BassDigger

marcan said:


> Yes. I brought my LCD 2.2 and compared it to LCD2, LCDX and LCD3 (all fazor).


 
  
 Going a bit OT. But, if you have the time, it would be nice if you could give some comparisons between these 'phones, maybe on another thread.
  
 Of course, I'm most interested to read about how the LCD2F compares i.e. what does the non-fazor (lcd2.2) give away, in terms of imaging and resolution, to the lcd2f? It's becoming well established that the non-fazor has better bass, but what about the rest of the frequency spectrum and any other factors?
  
 Cheers.


----------



## marcan

bassdigger said:


> Going a bit OT. But, if you have the time, it would be nice if you could give some comparisons between these 'phones, maybe on another thread.
> 
> Of course, I'm most interested to read about how the LCD2F compares i.e. what does the non-fazor (lcd2.2) give away, in terms of imaging and resolution, to the lcd2f? It's becoming well established that the non-fazor has better bass, but what about the rest of the frequency spectrum and any other factors?
> 
> Cheers.


 
 Well 2F had more detailed and had a larger soundstage but was less involving because there was less foundation (bass). The LCD2.2 sounded more natural and balanced for me. Also with my amp (bryston bha-1) the LCD2.2 has enough details for my taste.


----------



## DDDamian

marcan said:


> Well 2F had more detailed and had a larger soundstage but was less involving because there was less foundation (bass). The LCD2.2 sounded more natural and balanced for me. Also with my amp (bryston bha-1) the LCD2.2 has enough details for my taste.


 
 Out of all the reading I did (many, many pages lol) that seems as good a consensus as any. I trade-off, and pick your poison.


----------



## marcan

dddamian said:


> Out of all the reading I did (many, many pages lol) that seems as good a consensus as any. I trade-off, and pick your poison.


 
 Yes. It's a question of taste and listening level.


----------



## pldelisle

Simple question here : Is the Schiit Asgard 2 enough to power the LCD-2? I'm planning to get these since everywhere I read reviews it seems it can change the way your listen to music 

DAC is a Schiit Gungnir.


----------



## DDDamian

pldelisle said:


> Simple question here : Is the Schiit Asgard 2 enough to power the LCD-2? I'm planning to get these since everywhere I read reviews it seems it can change the way your listen to music
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 By the specs it'll drive them decently. Someone may come along who has one but specs say 1W @ 50ohms so likely around 750mW @ 80ohms.


----------



## pldelisle

I'm kind of new to this world so I must admit I have no idea what these numbers represent in real life. It's loud enough ? I don't usually listen to music very loud but I want to be sure before paying 1300$ CND for a pair of headphones


----------



## DDDamian

pldelisle said:


> I'm kind of new to this world so I must admit I have no idea what these numbers represent in real life. It's loud enough ? I don't usually listen to music very loud but I want to be sure before paying 1300$ CND for a pair of headphones


 
 No worries - yes that's going to get you quite loud  BTW, one of the beauties of the headphone community is people sell on their gear, usually in very good shape, Used LCD2.2's often run anywhere from Cdn$650 to $800 if you're patient on CanuckAudioMart, mint and with no tax. Here in the Head-Fi classifieds most will be in the U.S. and our dollar is down a bit. Just saying, they don't have to cost you that much. But they are worth it 
  
 I'd say your amp in on the lower-end power-wise for what I'd ideally recommend, but you're in the zone and it will sound very good.


----------



## theblueprint

My LCD2.2 (no fazors) are driven by an Asgard 2. It does hit the minimum requirements for the headphones, and it drives them pretty well. I'll be upgrading to a mjolnir one day, but that won't be for a long time. In the meantime, the Asgard will be keeping me happy. If you search the LCD2 threads or the LCD2 amp threads, you'll find that many of us are using the Asgard 2 and are having no problems. 

Don't quote me, but it probably brings out 80% of my LCD2's potential. To be honest, I'll probably upgrade my DAC first before the Asgard.


----------



## cjc

Asgard 2 drives my new LCD-2's (fazors) very nicely. I also use my Beyerdynamic A20 sometimes.


----------



## pldelisle

Thanks all ! You reassure me about my amp !


----------



## korzena

marcan said:


> Yes. It's a question of taste and listening level.


 
 By 'listening level' you mean the volume knob?
 I've heard opinions that LCD-2 sound best when played louder. Did you mean this thing?


----------



## korzena

dddamian said:


> Mine are the pre-fazor, and are a very in-close sound, much like the 650. If you want wider the HD-800 or AKG's are good, but very different sounds.


 
 I have LCD-2.2 pre-fazor, too and their 'closed-in sound' bothers me sometimes, especially with various kinds of electronic/soundtrack music. I miss spaciousness/air listening to these genres.
 I use Lyr as an amp. I wonder if another amp would help LCD-2 in this regard? Any recommendations?


----------



## Joong

Marantz pm8003/4/5 through speaker taps.


----------



## DDDamian

korzena said:


> I have LCD-2.2 pre-fazor, too and their 'closed-in sound' bothers me sometimes, especially with various kinds of electronic/soundtrack music. I miss spaciousness/air listening to these genres.
> I use Lyr as an amp. I wonder if another amp would help LCD-2 in this regard? Any recommendations?


 
 One thing about the 2.2's is they seem to keep their distinctive sound across different amps, and also seem to react less to EQ settings. Some cans are real chameleons and can change dramatically on different amps or EQ settings, but the 2.2's distinctive sound seems to always come through.
  
 I have several amps, but none of them seem to change the soundstage much, even though they may change other factors like texture or the highs. Various DSP effects may be the best route with these if you want to simulate a wider more spacious sound. Just my opinion.


----------



## theblueprint

dddamian said:


> One thing about the 2.2's is they seem to keep their distinctive sound across different amps, and also seem to react less to EQ settings. Some cans are real chameleons and can change dramatically on different amps or EQ settings, but the 2.2's distinctive sound seems to always come through.
> 
> I have several amps, but none of them seem to change the soundstage much, even though they may change other factors like texture or the highs. Various DSP effects may be the best route with these if you want to simulate a wider more spacious sound. Just my opinion.




What amps are you driving them with? My friends and I noticed that when you give them more power or run them balanced, it'll open up the sound a bit more, tightens it too. For instance, the schiit mjolnir will do that.


----------



## DDDamian

theblueprint said:


> What amps are you driving them with? My friends and I noticed that when you give them more power or run them balanced, it'll open up the sound a bit more, tightens it too. For instance, the schiit mjolnir will do that.


 
 There's three I'll use them with: balanced out of the Bryston BHA-1, single-ended out of the Bottlehead S.E.X, and single-ended out of the Gustard H-10. Out of the three the first two sound best to me.
  
 The Bryston is SS, very detailed and tight. The S.E.X. is more musical with excellent dynamics and texture, and ample power. Both are very very good with it. The Gustard H-10 gives it incredible bass but quite rolled-off highs and reduced detail. Good if you like minimal treble. That's partly a factor of the op-amps in there now.
  
 All three have sufficient power to make them shine.
  
 Edit: yes I'd agree - more power does give it more oomph in the bass but with greater control. The LCD2.2's really handle power well with minimal distortion as you go up in volume, as long as the amp can dish it out.


----------



## marcan

korzena said:


> By 'listening level' you mean the volume knob?
> I've heard opinions that LCD-2 sound best when played louder. Did you mean this thing?


 
 If you listen loud a darker sound is less fatiguing. And yes LCD2 sound best loud.


----------



## cjc

My LCD-2 fazors sound good at low volume to me but, I did like my Hifiman HE-400's played a bit louder.


----------



## DDDamian

cjc said:


> My LCD-2 fazors sound good at low volume to me but, I did like my Hifiman HE-400's played a bit louder.


 
 Yeah, I'm surprised how much they keep some dynamics when at low volume. The HD-650 seems to need a bit of volume to come alive. Likewise for the HE-400's.


----------



## korzena

dddamian said:


> One thing about the 2.2's is they seem to keep their distinctive sound across different amps, and also seem to react less to EQ settings. Some cans are real chameleons and can change dramatically on different amps or EQ settings, but the 2.2's distinctive sound seems to always come through.
> 
> I have several amps, but none of them seem to change the soundstage much, even though they may change other factors like texture or the highs. Various DSP effects may be the best route with these if you want to simulate a wider more spacious sound. Just my opinion.


 
 Thank you, to be honest I have the same experience with different amps and LCD-2. Probably just wanted to make sure I can hear 
 The DSP effects is exactly my way to go when listening to the music that requires more air. I use J.River - DSP effects - Surround Field.


----------



## porridgecup

With the Bryston BHA-1 and LCD 2.2 pre-Fazor, subjectively they sound a lot better when they're quite loud. Though they're still good even when pretty quiet.


----------



## pldelisle

I listened for the first time today to the Audeze. 
  
 It will be for sure the next pair of headphone that will be plugged into my Asgard 2


----------



## marcan

porridgecup said:


> With the Bryston BHA-1 and LCD 2.2 pre-Fazor, subjectively they sound a lot better when they're quite loud. Though they're still good even when pretty quiet.


 
 Actually all audeze have less distortions (% THD) at 100 dB than 90 dB. And their warm sound makes them still comfortable at high level.


----------



## nicholars

dddamian said:


> Mine are the pre-fazor, and are a very in-close sound, much like the 650. If you want wider the HD-800 or AKG's are good, but very different sounds.


 
  
 I don't find the HD650 closed in, I like the HD650, except for the "3 blob" soundstage, not a huge soundstage, but not "closed in" like you get from some closed headphones etc. Maybe we are confusing terminology.


----------



## Rob80b

porridgecup said:


> With the Bryston BHA-1 and LCD 2.2 pre-Fazor, subjectively they sound a lot better when they're quite loud. Though they're still good even when pretty quiet.


 

  
 I can attest to that, as a new/first owner of a pair of planar magnetic headphones I was pleasantly surprised by the LCD-2.2s (non-fazor) tonal presentation at all volumes with the BHA-1….my initial impressions were relatively skewed though…finding them while pleasant…lacking base and dynamics, the opposite of what I’ve been reading and even heard at my local dealer with the fazor model 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





…that was until I discovered the balanced cable was wired out of phase.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 All has been corrected and I find that they do stand up to all the hype and a nice compliment to my HD700s…wonderful deep extended base and a very natural presentation.


----------



## nicholars

marcan said:


> Well 2F had more detailed and had a larger soundstage but was less involving because there was less foundation (bass). The LCD2.2 sounded more natural and balanced for me. Also with my amp (bryston bha-1) the LCD2.2 has enough details for my taste.


 
  
 Are the fazor relatively bass light compared to the originals? Or is it a small difference? Same with soundstage etc. are they big differences or small? Can you also compare either of them to the SRH 1540 or HD650?
  
 As I prefer darker headphones... But also don't like small soundstage, that leaves me with a bit of a predicament.


----------



## DDDamian

nicholars said:


> I don't find the HD650 closed in, I like the HD650, except for the "3 blob" soundstage, not a huge soundstage, but not "closed in" like you get from some closed headphones etc. Maybe we are confusing terminology.


 
  
 Possibly lol. Perhaps intimate is a better description. I just did a mini-review of the 650 with the Byston BHA-1 on their threads and was quite surprised how much the BHA-1 (a brighter-to-neutral amp) opened up the soundstage on the 650's compared to my other amps when run balanced. Three-blob and intimate is how I would normally describe them, but the combo above did wonders for a wider and more spacious soundstage. Smoothed out that mid-bass hump too, although that's one of the nicer and defining characteristics of the 650.
  


rob80b said:


> I can attest to that, as a new/first owner of a pair of planar magnetic headphones I was pleasantly surprised by the LCD-2.2s (non-fazor) tonal presentation at all volumes with the BHA-1….my initial impressions were relatively skewed though…finding them while pleasant…lacking base and dynamics, the opposite of what I’ve been reading and even heard at my local dealer with the fazor model
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Quite agree. The 2.2c and BHA-1 are a great pairing - really compliment each other. The great bass of the 2.2c still comes through while the darker presentation of the 2.2c seems evened out by a bit more high end from the BHA-1. Combined with the power and detail of the balanced output it's a very good pair.


----------



## marcan

nicholars said:


> Are the fazor relatively bass light compared to the originals? Or is it a small difference? Same with soundstage etc. are they big differences or small? Can you also compare either of them to the SRH 1540 or HD650?
> 
> As I prefer darker headphones... But also don't like small soundstage, that leaves me with a bit of a predicament.


 
 The fazor isn't bass light but has less low end than the pre-fazor. It's not night and day. Fazor having a bit more treble than the pre-fazor the soundstage is a bit larger.
 I had a HD650 long time ago. The difference is big. The LCD fazor or pre fazor beats the HD650 in all department (sub, bass, medium, treble, soundstage, precision, distortion, ...).
 I can't say for the  SRH 1540.
  


dddamian said:


> Possibly lol. Perhaps intimate is a better description. I just did a mini-review of the 650 with the Byston BHA-1 on their threads and was quite surprised how much the BHA-1 (a brighter-to-neutral amp) opened up the soundstage on the 650's compared to my other amps when run balanced. Three-blob and intimate is how I would normally describe them, but the combo above did wonders for a wider and more spacious soundstage. Smoothed out that mid-bass hump too, although that's one of the nicer and defining characteristics of the 650.
> 
> 
> Quite agree. The 2.2c and BHA-1 are a great pairing - really compliment each other. The great bass of the 2.2c still comes through while the darker presentation of the 2.2c seems evened out by a bit more high end from the BHA-1. Combined with the power and detail of the balanced output it's a very good pair.


 
 Another LCD2.2 / BHA-1 lover here. And balanced please


----------



## Lohb

marcan said:


> If you listen loud a darker sound is less fatiguing. And yes LCD2 sound best loud.


 

 You might damage your hearing listening to planars 'loud', as the distortion cue (which can show with dynamic cans) is not there to tell you they may be into the hearing loss territory.
 Edit : (Actually I've been finding IEM's worse with this due to their laser-like presentation at higher volumes)
  
 http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/earbud-increases-hidden-hearing-loss-risk-study-article-1.2230945


----------



## marcan

lohb said:


> You might damage your hearing listening to planars 'loud', as the distortion cue (which can show with dynamic cans) is not there to tell you they may be into the hearing loss territory.
> Edit : (Actually I've been finding IEM's worse with this due to their laser-like presentation at higher volumes)
> 
> http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/earbud-increases-hidden-hearing-loss-risk-study-article-1.2230945


 
 Yep I know. In this this article, they talked more precisely about earbuds.
 Anyway I don't go up 104 dB (otherwise I start to have stereo imaging issues) and if I listening at high level, I take breaks.
 Actually the bass will trigger your ears compression which is a natural protection. I wouldn't say the same with a more high/mid oriented headphone, the ear being more sensitive to the the 3khz -5khz region due to internal resonance.
 So with the LCD having good bass and being not bright you can more easily listen to the them at a comfortable level.
 Now with a good amp the LCD won't distort and you can easily go up to the dangerous territory without notice it.
 But all things being equal I would say that 110dB on a LCD will be less damaging than the HD800 at the same level.


----------



## Dennis Chen

I currently purchased a pair of LCD-2, and I also have SRH1540 on hand.
 Regarding SRH1540, it's a closed back design. The air cannot pass the ear cup in and out, so the sound stage suffered quit a bit.
  
 Many people considering LCD-2 lacks the open feeling of most open back headphones, but in my humble opinion, the sound stage is much wider than the SRH1540.
  
 I have never tried HD650, so I cannot comment on this.  But the sound stage of my other headphone HD700 is even better than the LCD-2,
 but sometimes the brightness of HD700 causes fatigue on my ears, and that's the reason I prefer the warm feeling of LCD-2.


----------



## Lohb

dennis chen said:


> I currently purchased a pair of LCD-2, and I also have SRH1540 on hand.
> Regarding SRH1540, it's a closed back design. The air cannot pass the ear cup in and out, so the sound stage suffered quit a bit.
> 
> Many people considering LCD-2 lacks the open feeling of most open back headphones, but in my humble opinion, the sound stage is much wider than the SRH1540.
> ...


 

 There are various version of LCD-2 and the older talk was of that restricted sound-stage/or intimate dpending on how you see it, but if you have F version that is simply why, each revision has dealt with that.


----------



## JamesBr

marcan said:


> Yes. It's a question of taste and listening level.


 
 Ya, it's really subjective  and personal I agree


----------



## Dennis Chen

Hi Lohb,
  
 Although I just purchased my LCD-2 a few days ago, the manufacture date is back in late 2014.
  
 I searched the web and dogged out all the documentation from the package, but I still have no idea what version my LCD-2 is.
  
 Is there anyway to know the exact version of my pair?
  
 Thanks in advance for any information!


----------



## nicholars

dennis chen said:


> I currently purchased a pair of LCD-2, and I also have SRH1540 on hand.
> Regarding SRH1540, it's a closed back design. The air cannot pass the ear cup in and out, so the sound stage suffered quit a bit.
> 
> Many people considering LCD-2 lacks the open feeling of most open back headphones, but in my humble opinion, the sound stage is much wider than the SRH1540.
> ...


 
  
 What about the bass amount / impact of the LCD 2 vs the 1540? I would like more bass resolution than the 1540, but the quantity the 1540 is about right, as opposed to the HD650 for example which have almost no sub bass. For example if you EQ'd both 1540 and LCD 2 to have as much bass as possible, which is the most powerful? Most music I leave it flat or almost flat with the 1540, but electronic music I like to add bass below 60hz. HE400 had about perfect amount of bass as well, It does not sound bloated or mess up the lower mids in normal music, but can be EQ'd to have a lot of bass for electronic music. I also don't like sibilance or bright treble, the 1540 are about right, the HE400 sibilance was just horrible tbh, HD650 was nice but a bit boring.


----------



## Dennis Chen

Hi Nicholars,
  
 It's kind of weird, my amp is Marantz HD-DAC1. It seems it can't pull out the bass from LCD-2, but it does a good job to drive SRH1540.  There maybe something wrong with the setting or I need a more powerful amp.
  
 I am kind of interested in Schiit Lyr2 and keep my HD-DAC1 as a pure DAC.
  
 Schiit Lyr2 is out of stock in my country, I think it will take a while for me to get it and give you a correct answer.
  
 Audeze is giving a 30 days of evaluation without charge.
 It might be a better idea for you to get a pair and listen to it with your own ears.
  
 Sorry I cannot give you my opinion right now, but don't miss the chance that  Audeze is offering.


----------



## DDDamian

dennis chen said:


> Hi Lohb,
> 
> Although I just purchased my LCD-2 a few days ago, the manufacture date is back in late 2014.
> 
> ...


 
 That's after the time the fazors were introduced in the LCD2 models I believe. Mine are September 2013 and are non-fazored 2.2c's (for classic). Anything much later would be a 2.2f (for fazor).
  
 Lightly feel the inside of the earcup where the sound emanates from. If you feel a series of pointy ridges that is the fazor waveguide assembly and you have a 2.2f. If it feels like flat ridges you have the 2.2c.


----------



## Arnotts

dddamian said:


> That's around the time the fazors were introduced in the LCD2 models I believe. Mine are September 2014 and are non-fazored 2.2c's (for classic). Anything much later would be a 2.2f (for fazor).
> 
> Lightly feel the inside of the earcup where the sound emanates from. If you feel a series of pointy ridges that is the fazor waveguide assembly and you have a 2.2f. If it feels like flat ridges you have the 2.2c.


 

 Surely you mean September 2013?


----------



## DDDamian

arnotts said:


> Surely you mean September 2013?


 
 Surely you are correct - original post edited and thanks!


----------



## nicholars

dennis chen said:


> Hi Nicholars,
> 
> It's kind of weird, my amp is Marantz HD-DAC1. It seems it can't pull out the bass from LCD-2, but it does a good job to drive SRH1540.  There maybe something wrong with the setting or I need a more powerful amp.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I don't know what the specs of the headphone amp are... It is surprising how hard it is to find such simple information from most manufacturers.


----------



## jodgey4

nicholars said:


> I don't know what the specs of the headphone amp are... It is surprising how hard it is to find such simple information from most manufacturers.


 
 "800mW / 32 ohm", so about ~400mW for the LCD-2s. Enough to not have volume issues, but perhaps some would argue more power helps bring them to life.


----------



## Bigdog33

Hi all, I was wondering if anyone could shed some light on me about how powerful of an amp the LCD2f would require?  I am going to be obtaining the LCD2f hopefully soon, and currently have the Woo Audio WA6 amp.  From reading older posts about the LCD2 and LCD2.2, I was under the impression that the WA6 would not supply enough current to drive them sufficiently, but after reading some of the more recent posts regarding the new fazor technology, many posters make it sound like they are less demanding?  Is this true?  Would the WA6 be a good pairing?


----------



## jodgey4

The Fazor tech increases sensitivity by about 3dB/1 mW, so the Fazor means you need only half the power of non-Fazored 2.2's. Power also depends on tubes, IIRC, so maybe check on that?


----------



## DDDamian

The WA6 is an SET with output transformers that (according to the specs I can find) can drive about 500mW but I couldn't find at what impedance that was. If it's at 32ohms it's going to be challenged to really drive them, even with the fazors. At least it's the right topology for what you're looking to drive and not OTL.
  
 Hopefully someone with that pairing can chime in. There's a lot of WA6 reviews that undoubtedly pair them with Audeze's: would be worth a read through those until someone with prior experience can chime in.


----------



## Bigdog33

Thank you all so much for your feedback.  I took a year of physics in college and remember ohm's law, but I definitely need to brush up because I find matching an amp to a headphone to be tricky business!  Anyway, I was doing some research into the WA6 manual, and the output looks like it does: 
      
 580mW @32Ω 
 550mW @60Ω 
 590mW @120Ω
 460mW @300Ω
 400mW @600Ω 




  
 Most of the reviews that I saw found the pairing to be lacking, but I was thinking that since they were older reviews and not likely fazor LCD2, maybe I wouldn't have to get a new amp!


----------



## jodgey4

Assuming this is a perfect voltage amp (which nearly never happens (0 ohm output impedance, and no current limiting/non-linear behavior))... then there should be _half_ the power at 64Ω compared to 32Ω. P=V^2/R is what we should use. The behavior shown here is very typical of a tube amp - especially an OTL design with a high output impedance and current limiting. Strange this behavior occurs even with a transformer as strongly as it does... where did you find this info?
  
 EDIT:: Found the info - doesn't say which impedance setting the amp is at, though it does say it was with the use of a 6DR7 tube. Maybe this is at the high-impedance output setting?


----------



## Bigdog33

I got it from the owner's manual PDF on woo audio's website: http://www.wooaudio.com/manuals/WA6_Owners_Manual.pdf


----------



## ahnafakeef

Has anyone here used an LCD-2 with an O2 amp? I have the amp and am looking forward to getting these headphones, so please share your experience to help me finalize my decision. Thank you.


----------



## CanadianMaestro

Burson Soloist does a great job with LCD-2.2. So does the BHA-1 in balanced.


----------



## ahnafakeef

canadianmaestro said:


> Burson Soloist does a great job with LCD-2.2. So does the BHA-1 in balanced.


 
 Thank you, but I was hoping to get something MUCH cheaper.
  
 So I'll rephrase - what is the CHEAPEST amp that will sufficiently power an LCD-2?
  
 Thank you.


----------



## CanadianMaestro

ahnafakeef said:


> Thank you, but I was hoping to get something MUCH cheaper.
> 
> So I'll rephrase - what is the CHEAPEST amp that will sufficiently power an LCD-2?
> 
> Thank you.




Tough call.

WA6. BH Crack.
Not sure about Polaris, check their specs at Garage1217. It certainly drives the Senn and T1 cans, but not sure about planars.

Edit. Polaris drives my HE560 very well, but 560 is a single-sided Planar mag, whereas LCD is double.


----------



## ahnafakeef

canadianmaestro said:


> Tough call.
> 
> WA6. BH Crack.
> Not sure about Polaris, check their specs at Garage1217. It certainly drives the Senn and T1 cans, but not sure about planars.
> ...


 
 Thanks for the suggestions. The BH Crack seems to be a fairly low-priced amp. Quick question - does it require the user to assemble it?
  
 Also, what specs must an amp meet to be able to properly drive an LCD-2?
  
 Thank you.


----------



## Rob80b

ahnafakeef said:


> Thank you, but I was hoping to get something MUCH cheaper.
> 
> So I'll rephrase - what is the CHEAPEST amp that will sufficiently power an LCD-2?
> 
> Thank you.


 
 One more for the Bryston BHA-1/Audeze synergy…but I was pleasantly surprised how they also sounded quite fine direct off the headphone jack from my iMac..if you’re looking for much cheaper look for something with the highest current…there are a lot of affordable amps out there. One of my favorites was the Shanling PH100, very well built with lots of output, quite reasonably priced off ebay.
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/SHANLING-PH100-HEADPHONE-AMPLIFIER-PH-100-HEAD-AMP-/220554411981?hash=item335a113fcd
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/475918/shanling-ph100/30#post_6564193


----------



## CanadianMaestro

ahnafakeef said:


> Thanks for the suggestions. The BH Crack seems to be a fairly low-priced amp. Quick question - does it require the user to assemble it?
> 
> Also, what specs must an amp meet to be able to properly drive an LCD-2?
> 
> Thank you.


 

 Yes assembly, but apparently it's easy. There's a guy here, DDDamian, who has experience. Contact him. He also has LCD-2.
  
 Specs: You need juice.


----------



## CanadianMaestro

rob80b said:


> One more for the Bryston BHA-1/Audeze synergy…but I was pleasantly surprised how they also sounded quite fine direct off the headphone jack from my iMac..if you’re looking for much cheaper look for something with the highest current…there are a lot of affordable amps out there. One of my favorites was the Shanling PH100, very well built with lots of output, quite reasonably priced off ebay.
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/SHANLING-PH100-HEADPHONE-AMPLIFIER-PH-100-HEAD-AMP-/220554411981?hash=item335a113fcd
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/475918/shanling-ph100/30#post_6564193


 
  
 Have never heard the Shanling, so don't misunderstand my comments.
 Does it have the crystal-clear resolution and imaging as something higher up the ladder $$? I'm wary of using a $200 amp to match with a $1K headphone like LCD-2.2.
 Just curious


----------



## Rob80b

canadianmaestro said:


> Have never heard the Shanling, so don't misunderstand my comments.
> Does it have the crystal-clear resolution and imaging as something higher up the ladder $$? I'm wary of using a $200 amp to match with a $1K headphone like LCD-2.2.
> Just curious


 

 ReH100
  
 It's not a Bryston and it's single ended but IMHO it did compete with quite a few of the the under $1k SS amps, it took the Bryston to replace it in my setup.
 I did give it to a friend so I should be able to borrow it and see how it pairs with the LCD2.2s as it did a nice job powering my hungry AKG K501s/K701s and the Senn HD580/600s. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
 Should note that Shanling is highly regarded for their product, price performance and have a strong following.
 In Canada it was labeled the PH1000 and originally imported by Charisma Audio here in Ontario.
http://www.charismaaudio.com/?page_id=1084


----------



## Rob80b

canadianmaestro said:


> Have never heard the Shanling, so don't misunderstand my comments.
> ................


 
 Just to go off topic for a bit...but you may have seen their CD players...hard to miss....I've never heard one though.


----------



## CanadianMaestro

rob80b said:


> Just to go off topic for a bit...but you may have seen their CD players...hard to miss....I've never heard one though.


 
  
 Dang, and all that time...I thought that was a miniature Millenium Falcon!


----------



## jodgey4

canadianmaestro said:


> Tough call.
> 
> WA6. BH Crack.
> Not sure about Polaris, check their specs at Garage1217. It certainly drives the Senn and T1 cans, but not sure about planars.
> ...


 
  
  


ahnafakeef said:


> Thanks for the suggestions. The BH Crack seems to be a fairly low-priced amp. Quick question - does it require the user to assemble it?
> 
> Also, what specs must an amp meet to be able to properly drive an LCD-2?
> 
> Thank you.


 
  
 These aren't good choices for the LCD-2. The WA6 probably needs twice the rated power to be sufficient, and the BHC is an OTL design which is horrendous for planars.
  
 Schiit Magni 2 Uber or Asgard 2 (for smoother Class A amplification), Audio-GD NFB-3AMP, etc. is what you should be looking for. The Polaris would be a great choice.
  
 The BHC requires assembly unless bought used or through a private member who assembles for a fee.
  
 0.5W+ is recommended for the LCD-2 IMO, Audeze says 1W+. That's for a ~60-70ohm purely resistive load.


----------



## MRC001

jodgey4 said:


> These aren't good choices for the LCD-2. The WA6 probably needs twice the rated power to be sufficient, and the BHC is an OTL design which is horrendous for planars.
> 
> Schiit Magni 2 Uber or Asgard 2 (for smoother Class A amplification), Audio-GD NFB-3AMP, etc. is what you should be looking for. The Polaris would be a great choice.
> 
> ...


 
 I agree the LCD-2 doesn't need nearly as much power as Audeze recommends - their recommendation of 1 watt is at least 10 times higher than you really need.
 The LCD-2 needs about 0.2 mW for 90 dB SPL (which is very loud).
 1 Watt is 5,000 times more power. That's 37 dB louder, which is 127 dB SPL, which will fry your ears & melt your brain.
*Even a measly 100 mW is enough for an LCD-2, if the amp produces that 100 mW cleanly and effortlessly.* That 100 mW makes 117 dB SPL, which is loud enough to cause hearing damage with less than 1 minute of exposure. Anyone who listens that loud would soon lose his hearing.
  
 The LCD-2 is an efficient, purely resistive load that is easy to drive, and 70 ohms isn't too low an impedance for any solid state amp. Tube amps will need an output transformer - an OTL tube amp won't drive a 70 ohm load well.
  
 The amp driving LCD-2 doesn't need a lot of power. It just needs to be clean, very clean. Audeze's recommendation stems in part from the fact that a powerful amp loafing along at less than 1% of its rated power is probably clean. That's often true, but not always. Most of the time, with the LCD-2, a cleaner amp will sound better than a more powerful one.


----------



## ahnafakeef

mrc001 said:


> I agree the LCD-2 doesn't need nearly as much power as Audeze recommends - their recommendation of 1 watt is at least 10 times higher than you really need.
> The LCD-2 needs about 0.2 mW for 90 dB SPL (which is very loud).
> 1 Watt is 5,000 times more power. That's 37 dB louder, which is 127 dB SPL, which will fry your ears & melt your brain.
> *Even a measly 100 mW is enough for an LCD-2, if the amp produces that 100 mW cleanly and effortlessly.* That 100 mW makes 117 dB SPL, which is loud enough to cause hearing damage with less than 1 minute of exposure. Anyone who listens that loud would soon lose his hearing.
> ...


 
 I'm sorry that I've to ask but I'm not particularly educated on audio equipment - by the measurements you mentioned, how will the O2 fare in driving an LCD-2?
  
 Also, if it's possible, please tell me how much (a percentage number would work) of the LCD-2's potential I'll be able to extract with an O2 amp.
  
 Thank you.


----------



## Lohb

Maybe they just mean 1 watt of HEADROOM so your amp is not taxed out.


----------



## MRC001

ahnafakeef said:


> I'm sorry that I've to ask but I'm not particularly educated on audio equipment - by the measurements you mentioned, how will the O2 fare in driving an LCD-2?
> 
> Also, if it's possible, please tell me how much (a percentage number would work) of the LCD-2's potential I'll be able to extract with an O2 amp.


 
 I can explain what the specs suggest. The specs don't tell the whole story, but they'll help you avoid obvious problems.
 According to InnerFidelity, the JDS labs O2 when AC powered can put at least 4 Volts into 70 ohms cleanly, which is about 230 mW of power.
 That's more than enough to drive the LCD2. When playing the LCD2 at any normal listening level the O2 is loafing along.
  
 However, this only means the O2 and LCD2 are compatible from an electric / load standpoint. It doesn't mean they sound good. That's for your ears to decide.


----------



## x RELIC x

MRC001, at those low power ratings are you considering the juice needed for bass output vs treble output? Bass frequencies require much more power to reproduce than mid and treble frequencies. Sure, your example of low output power can drive the headphones to loud db levels but it'll sound like listening out of a tin can (not quite but still), at least that's the effect when I use low power amps with the LCD-2.


----------



## MRC001

The LCD-2 have the same impedance at all frequencies, and their voltage sensitivity is also flat vs. frequency. They are purely resistive, so there is no frequency-dependent change in impedance or efficiency.
  
 Given this, how could they require more current for a low vs. high frequency, at the same amplitude? V=IR applies to resistors in an AC circuit. *When we're talking about pure resistors*, a given voltage requires the same current, at any frequency, even down to zero (DC). And the LCD-2, being orthos, are resistors for all practical purposes.
  
 The notion you suggest is relevant to conventional speaker drivers, which tend to have lower impedance at the bottom of their frequency range, which requires more current (and thus more power) to produce the same voltage. In short, they are less efficient at their lowest frequencies. Orthos like the LCD-2 are not like that. This is one reason why Orthos are easier for an amp to drive than a conventional headphone of the same nominal impedance and efficiency.


----------



## psgarcha92

@ahnafakeef,
  
 look for used amps. 
 These headphones can be "end game". I brought them this month, and I am pretty sure am on my way to getting used to them so bad, that nothing else will sound good.
  
 first things first,
 I see that you have 14 posts here. Now, don't mind, I don't know your audio history. Gear used/experienced.
 Please dont mind this, but if you havent had much experience, you "might" not be able to appreciate what these is all about. 
  
 You have limited funds, get a decent pair of phones and a good source, save the rest. Learn your way through or something. Come back when you have enough funds & experience. I will explain why.
  
 When you get the phones, and cannot power them up properly, you do not take them to the eargasmic levels. Granted the power they are advertised at will melt your brain, if you listen at those levels, but do not settle with them without a decent amp. I have had earphones open up beautifully with an amp. Its quite simple, these transducers need power to be tamed. More power will almost always (with properly designed amps) mean less distortion.
  
 The bass on these is killing. and I will tell you to your relief that they sound sweet from my Mini^3 amp. But that wont get you even close to what these can do. Seriously. 
  
 I got them used at 700 USD and a Used Schiit Lyr for another 300. Put in more money, and got myself a DAC, the AudioGD nfb 15. The setup is a fine, fine setup, and blows my older setups (all portable) out. The presentation is so beautifully different. Its natural. These are detailed too. They will sound more real than anything you have listened to before, i can assure you. I have heard stuff on them (bass, bass i heard, people) that I wouldn't normally hear on my RE272 or TF10. No sir. I heard footsteps in a movie, they were not focused on the performer moving, but these reproduced the sound so so so very naturally, I got scared thinking someone was home (i was home alone). Every now and then I have to move my headphones off to make sure it wasn't an intruder. 
  
 And. Laptop audio is almost universally ****ty. Don't go that way. If nothing, an O2 "might" sound "ok". Nothing mind blowing. Do not dismiss them without listening to them properly.
  
 P.S. This is all my opinion, people, please don't get pi**ed off.
  
 Regards


----------



## ahnafakeef

psgarcha92 said:


> @ahnafakeef,
> 
> look for used amps.
> These headphones can be "end game". I brought them this month, and I am pretty sure am on my way to getting used to them so bad, that nothing else will sound good.
> ...


 
 Thanks a lot for your input.
  
 Unfortunately, I'm not going to opt for buying used equipment. Could you please recommend a proper amp+DAC setup that can drive pretty much any headphone in the world? Then I'll get that and be done with it for a long while.
  
 And yes, you are right. My knowledge on audio equipment is extremely limited. As for experience, I have had an O2+ODAC combo paired with a DT990 Pro 250 Ohm for over a year. This is my first and only "real" audio setup. When I was recommended this setup, I was told that I'd be able to run $1000 headphones off of it without any issue. Apparently they weren't all that correct.
  
 Anyway, I was actually planning on getting the headphones now and then investing another ~$1000 for the DAC/Amp some months down the road. But I suppose that is not a feasible idea.
  
 Now, I'm currently ready to spend ~$1000. Given the situation, I'm contemplating getting a $550 HiFiMan HE-500 along with a ~$500 DAC or Amp (whichever is necessary, assuming it's one or the other). This scenario is applicable only if the new Amp/DAC is more than sufficient for whatever uber-end headphone (LCD-2, HE6, T1 etc.) I get in the future.
  
 So bottom line, it's going to be either of the two:
  
 a) Get a $1000 LCD-2 now, and get a $1000 Amp+DAC setup 8-10 months later
 b) Get a $550 HE-500 + an Amp or a DAC now, and get the LCD-2 or HE6 T1 8-10 months later
  
 Thanks for bearing with my long post. I hope this will help you provide a sound recommendation.


----------



## jodgey4

The order of priorities should always be headphones, then an amp powerful enough to drive them, then a clean DAC. Always go for the better headphones - try and audition them too! Anybody who tells different usually has _no_ understanding of how easy it is to make decent DACs and amps compared to headphones! LCD-2 + Audio-GD NFB-11 would be the best bang for buck setup IHMO (ES9018 + Class A amp). The Fazor 2.2 is pretty easy to drive for a double-sided planar. Many people do like the HE-500 more though, as tastes are subjective. I haven't heard them myself.


----------



## MRC001

ahnafakeef said:
			
		

> .
> So bottom line, it's going to be either of the two:
> 
> a) Get a $1000 LCD-2 now, and get a $1000 Amp+DAC setup 8-10 months later
> ...



I've listened to the HE500 extensively. It does some things well but wasn't the headphone for me because the midrange is recessed and voiced differently from the bass and treble. The LCD2F has the same excellent bass as the HE500 yet with more natural mids and a flatter overall frequency response. That's important to me as most of my listening is acoustic music and I want it to sound natural. Your preferences may vary. The HE500 is also less efficient than the LCD2, requires more voltage and power to drive.

Its true you need a good amp to get the most from the LCD2, but it is easier to drive than the HE500, giving you a wider choice of amps than the HE500 does.

Because of this, I would pick option A. But that's just my personal preference.


----------



## psgarcha92

jodgey4 said:


> The order of priorities should always be headphones, then an amp powerful enough to drive them, then a clean DAC. Always go for the better headphones - try and audition them too! Anybody who tells different usually has _no_ understanding of how easy it is to make decent DACs and amps compared to headphones! LCD-2 + Audio-GD NFB-11 would be the best bang for buck setup IHMO (ES9018 + Class A amp). The Fazor 2.2 is pretty easy to drive for a double-sided planar. Many people do like the HE-500 more though, as tastes are subjective. I haven't heard them myself.


 
  
 The restrictive criteria is funds as you can see here, so the Audio-GD NFB 11, doesn't quite fit his budget.
  
 I have seen people driving HD598s with a cellphone, brother. I have cursed. I have tested them with an amp and I have cringed at these people. 
  
 People are usually not at the luxury of thinking of amp first and then phones. Phones come first and then the amp/source. But that doesn't happen that very often in HiFi land, dont you think? Only after I brought my pair, I noticed this thing. Usually, a person who has enough funds for an LCD2 will have the funds for a decent amp too. Then you move onto better amps. "better"
  
 But if you gotta drive something out of your phone/laptop, I would suggest not doing that anyway whatsoever.
 (The info, that the guy owns an O2 already wasn't available before his last post, as you might notice)
  
 Why the abuse of something beautifully crafted  aesthetically & sound wise, on which you spend money, that too a crapload of. One might lose the patience, and forget about the LCD2's capabilities whatsoever. Placebo is something that exists in the land of the Audio Psyche. You fall out of love with equipment and don't give it enough justice. By the time he gets the amp, he might have lost appreciation. Specially if he doesn't have that much experience. 10 Months is a long time to lose patience with any phone. Ofcourse, my opinion.
  
 I know exactly what you mean by the amount of effort it goes into coming up with decent phones. Compared to sources. But we have seen quite a few different things in life. Don't buy phones that need an amp, if you don't have the money. By that i mean this: If your headphones need power, think of that criterion first. What are you gonna run 250 Ohms headphones from? a Fiio E3, by that philosophy?
  
  
 EDIT: PS. 250 Ohms is an example, not the impedance of the LCD2s. 
 EDITahnafakeef, The LCD2 and Audio-GD NFB 11 will be best bang for buck, as @jodgey4 pointed out. Also, you own the O2 + ODAC setup. You are not without amplification, so i would say go ahead and pull the trigger on the LCD2s.
 Regards


----------



## ahnafakeef

@psgarcha92 now that you know that I have an O2+ODAC, what do you recommend?

 Also, just came across this: https://www.massdrop.com/buy/littledot-tube-amp
  
 Would it be better than the NFB 11 or worse?
  
 Also, is the ODAC a "clean" enough DAC to complement an LCD-2?
  
 If the MKIII is good enough and I can get it at that price, I can probably squeeze it in with the LCD-2.
  
 Would that be a good enough setup?
  
 Thank you.
 ------------------------------------------------------
*EDIT: *Also, my question remains - what is the ideal DAC+Amp setup that would drive the LCD-2 and any other headphone in existence with ease?


----------



## psgarcha92

ahnafakeef said:


> @psgarcha92 now that you know that I have an O2+ODAC, what do you recommend?
> 
> Also, just came across this: https://www.massdrop.com/buy/littledot-tube-amp
> 
> ...


 
 @ahnafakeef, dont rush into an amp, for now. Do your research.
 Why I say this is, because, in a previous post, it was pointed out that OTL amps do not complement the LCD2s well. The LittleDot linked here, is an OTL. I havent heard it, but its a deduction from what people pointed out. 
  
 The ODAC will be good enough or not, is really for you to decide. Why, because we don't listen to just one component in a system. We listen to the whole system. The LCD2s are dark. Put them in with a warm sounding DAC, and you will be disappointed if you wanted more sparkle. To me it sounded detailed on my RE272s, more detailed than my iPod Video 5G. TF10s were not affected by it in the chain, at least I could not detect a change.
 What I think is this: You have an External DAC. This puts you leaps and bounds ahead the Laptop Audio scene. So don't bother yet.    
  
 Also, NFB 11 is Solid State. It wont have the inherent distortion that Tube Amps have. I am not saying all distortion is bad. Tube distortion can sound good. 
 Do more research on amps.
  
 Regards


----------



## ahnafakeef

psgarcha92 said:


> @ahnafakeef, dont rush into an amp, for now. Do your research.
> Why I say this is, because, in a previous post, it was pointed out that OTL amps do not complement the LCD2s well. The LittleDot linked here, is an OTL. I havent heard it, but its a deduction from what people pointed out.
> 
> The ODAC will be good enough or not, is really for you to decide. Why, because we don't listen to just one component in a system. We listen to the whole system. The LCD2s are dark. Put them in with a warm sounding DAC, and you will be disappointed if you wanted more sparkle. To me it sounded detailed on my RE272s, more detailed than my iPod Video 5G. TF10s were not affected by it in the chain, at least I could not detect a change.
> ...


 
 Okay, so no tube amps.
  
 I don't mean to seem like I'm rushing to buy an amp. I just want to know which amp and DAC would perfectly complement an LCD-2 so that I can get an idea of the expense I'm looking at. If the IDEAL amp isn't too expensive, I might just pull the trigger on both an amp and the LCD-2 and get the DAC later.
  
 Also, slightly off-topic, would my O2+ODAC suffice for a Tesla T1?
  
 Thank you for your patient guidance.


----------



## psgarcha92

Check out the Schiit LYR.
  
 Please see, that I am not saying No to tube amps. The LYR and LYR 2, you can see, are sworn upon as  good performers for the LCD2. Out of your budget though. Was the same for me, but I brought one used, and god am I glad that I did. 
  
 But. If you dont like the LCD2s and choose to go with another phone like the HD800, it might not pair well.
  
 I would say, only High End amps can actually be expected to work like a charm with just about any phone on the market. They still would sound different. Power wise, they would be beautifully equipped. 
  
 https://www.massdrop.com/buy/gustard-h10
 This pairs well with the LCD2 but dont know about other headphones. 
  
 There wouldnt be a sure shot Universal solution amp for this, maybe the 2-3k USD amps. BHA-1 or the Violectric Audio HPA V281 show good promise on the specs.
 Way out of your budget for now. 
  
 EDIT: No idea about Tesla T1, brother. No experience with that at all. 
 Regards


----------



## Arnotts

If you're looking for an amp that will drive almost everything, and generally sound very good while doing it (although not perfect, as perfection comes from achieving perfect synergy in your entire signal chain), then the Gustard H10 is a superb choice.
  
 I owned it for 9 months and paired it with ALL of my headphones (including the LCD-2's and LCD-X's). I sold it because, although it's an excellent jack of all trades, I want to upgrade to the Schiit Mjolnir 2 or Cavalli Liquid Carbon.


----------



## ahnafakeef

psgarcha92 said:


> Check out the Schiit LYR.
> 
> Please see, that I am not saying No to tube amps. The LYR and LYR 2, you can see, are sworn upon as  good performers for the LCD2. Out of your budget though. Was the same for me, but I brought one used, and god am I glad that I did.
> 
> ...


 
 I sincerely apologize for being so obscure. What I meant is, suggest the best amp and DAC setup for the LCD-2 when money is no object. Then I'll be able to judge the situation and proceed with my purchases accordingly.
  
 Also, which of these would you recommend for the LCD-2?
  
 a) Gustard H10: http://www.aliexpress.com/item/GUSTARD-H10-amp-high-current-Class-A-Headphone-Amplifier-AC115V-230V/32264637987.html?spm=2114.01020208.3.2.1YPzrm&ws_ab_test=201407_2,201444_6,201409_1
  
 b) Schiit Lyr: http://www.amazon.com/Schiit-Lyr-Hybrid-Headphone-Amplifier/dp/B004T335BK/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1441780986&sr=1-1&keywords=lyr
  
 And what DAC would go well with it?
  
 Thank you.


----------



## x RELIC x

ahnafakeef said:


> *Okay, so no tube amps.*
> 
> I don't mean to seem like I'm rushing to buy an amp. I just want to know which amp and DAC would perfectly complement an LCD-2 so that I can get an idea of the expense I'm looking at. If the IDEAL amp isn't too expensive, I might just pull the trigger on both an amp and the LCD-2 and get the DAC later.
> 
> ...




Specifically no OTL tube amps. I had the ALO Pan Am with the LCD-2 and it was a match made in heaven! I should never have sold it because they are discontinued now but if you can find a used one I highly suggest you grab one.

Also, for $599 the Cavalli Liquid Carbon, as suggested earlier, has a lot of Head Fi-ers excited including myself (I have one on order). The only issue with that one is parts are delayed so it won't ship until mid November. Cavalli Audio typically makes very excellent amps.

The Schiit Lyr 2 is also another good amp for the LCD-2. For a DAC to match it would make sense to get the Bifrost. Or if you really want to get a DAC that will last you a long time save some money to get the Gungnir multibit.

Edit: Or have a good look at the Audio-gd amps and DACs. Although they look cheap from their web page I can assure you that they produce world class leading gear at their price point.


----------



## ahnafakeef

Alright, so if I am to get the Lyr 2 and the LCD-2 WITHOUT a DAC right now, what kind of constraints/negative performance may I face from using the setup without a DAC?


----------



## x RELIC x

ahnafakeef said:


> Alright, so if I am to get the Lyr 2 and the LCD-2 WITHOUT a DAC right now, what kind of constraints/negative performance may I face from using the setup without a DAC?




What would your source be?


----------



## Arnotts

x relic x said:


> Specifically no OTL tube amps. I had the ALO Pan Am with the LCD-2 and it was a match made in heaven! I should never have sold it because they are discontinued now but if you can find a used one I highly suggest you grab one.
> 
> Also, for $599 the Cavalli Liquid Carbon, as suggested earlier, has a lot of Head Fi-ers excited including myself (I have one on order). The only issue with that one is parts are delayed so it won't ship until mid November. Cavalli Audio typically makes very excellent amps.
> 
> ...


 

 Yeah, basically, my audio journey has shown me that (generally) all of the differences between equipment are subtle. The only reason you keep buying and trying different pieces of gear is to get closer to your idea of perfection. The problem with starting off is that you don't really know what your ideal sound actually sounds like! You need to try different pieces of equipment until you nail down your preferences.
  
 The most cost effective option is to settle for "good enough". If you want perfection, it's going to cost you a lot of time and money (which I'm seemingly willing to do).
  
 I gotta tell you, though... with the Gungnir Multi Bit and even a Valhalla 2, music takes me to a different world.


----------



## x RELIC x

arnotts said:


> Yeah, basically, my audio journey has shown me that (generally) all of the differences between equipment are subtle. The only reason you keep buying and trying different pieces of gear is to get closer to your idea of perfection. The problem with starting off is that you don't really know what your ideal sound actually sounds like! You need to try different pieces of equipment until you nail down your preferences.
> 
> The most cost effective option is to settle for "good enough". If you want perfection, it's going to cost you a lot of time and money (which I'm seemingly willing to do).




Lol! Exactly. I just picked up the Audio-gd DAC-19 DAC and discovered how much I love the sound. Now I want to buy the Master 7 which is 2.5 time more expensive. Thankfully good used audio gear doesn't depreciate as much as my vehicles. Btw, with the Audeze cans the DAC-19 sounds superb.


----------



## Lohb

arnotts said:


> I gotta tell you, though... with the Gungnir Multi Bit and even a Valhalla 2, music takes me to a different world.


 
 The Schitt stuff is only US voltage though right ?


----------



## x RELIC x

lohb said:


> The Schitt stuff is only US voltage though right ?




Nope. Select your plug and voltage when you order.


----------



## ahnafakeef

x relic x said:


> What would your source be?


 
 Pardon my question. For a second there, I was thinking that a headphone and an amp are able to produce sound without a DAC. :facepalm:
  


arnotts said:


> Yeah, basically, my audio journey has shown me that (generally) all of the differences between equipment are subtle. The only reason you keep buying and trying different pieces of gear is to get closer to your idea of perfection. The problem with starting off is that you don't really know what your ideal sound actually sounds like! You need to try different pieces of equipment until you nail down your preferences.
> 
> The most cost effective option is to settle for "good enough". If you want perfection, it's going to cost you a lot of time and money (which I'm seemingly willing to do).
> 
> I gotta tell you, though... with the Gungnir Multi Bit and even a Valhalla 2, music takes me to a different world.


 
 By how much and why is the multi bit version better than the regular one? Is it worth the $1250 price tag, or are there significantly better options available out there for that kind of money?
  
 Also, will it handle almost any headphone in existence properly?
  
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
 Now that I've returned to reality and realize that I need to get both a DAC and an amp, I need to find the best DAC+Amp combo within $1500 so that I can wrap everything up within $2500. So please recommend your choice of DAC+Amp within $1500 for an LCD-2.
  
 Thank you.


----------



## x RELIC x

ahnafakeef said:


> Pardon my question. For a second there, I was thinking that a headphone and an amp are able to produce sound without a DAC. :facepalm:




Well, you could just be using the sound card in your computer (not recommended by me). If you have DAP (Digital Audio Player) like an X5ii (great unit by the way, very clean Line Out from the DAC) with a line out function that could serve as your music file source and as a DAC to the Lyr 2. 




> By how much and why is the multi bit version better than the regular one? Is it worth the $1250 price tag, or are there significantly better options available out there for that kind of money?
> 
> Also, will it handle almost any headphone in existence properly?




For me multibit / R-2R is preferable. Sounds more natural to me yet retains all the same micro detail in a well implemented DAC. The how and why are a very large conversation based on the very different way it handles the digital to analogue conversion. I suggest you search Head Fi or use Google to find out. A good search would be R-2R vs Delta Sigma.




> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Now that I've returned to reality and realize that I need to get both a DAC and an amp, I need to find the best DAC+Amp combo within $1500 so that I can wrap everything up within $2500. So please recommend your choice of DAC+Amp within $1500 for an LCD-2.
> 
> Thank you.




For a fantastic pairing you can pick up the very well regarded Audio-gd DAC-19 (R-2R / multibit DAC so no DSD format) for $800 and the Audio-gd NFB-1amp for $520. This will leap you ahead of most gear at this price point. Or if you want DSD for some reason you can look at the other Audio-gd Sabre based DACs.

Or as I suggested above, pick up a nice DAP like the X5ii for $350 and plug that in to the Lyr or NFB-1amp using the Line Out from the DAP. 

Or try the Lyr and Bifrost Uber (with USB) for around $1000 total. 

Or if you want a fantastic all-in-one unit you should really look at the Oppo HA-1 DAC/amp for $1199. I don't think there is a unit with more functionality than the HA-1 at this price. You can even use Bluetooth or connect your iPhone, iPad, or iPod classic directly to the front USB. Plus it has every connection you'll ever need and more than enough power for pretty much any headphone you'll purchase.

Yet another all in one for a good price is also the NFB-28 from Audio-gd. It should serve all your needs for $750, and it's well regarded as also. 

There are so many good amps and DACs that these are just the ones I have used or read up on. It's hard to recommend something as everyone's tastes are so different.

Another question would be is balanced output important to you? If not some of the above listed items could be replaced with less expensive single ended options.

My suggestion is to look at all of these options. Research them and get to know what the benefits and drawbacks are of each. Learn what each feature they have means. It'll take time but the more you know the better off you will be, unless you wish to endlessly purchase new gear to satisfy your curiosity (which will more than likely happen anyway, like the rest of us).


----------



## CanadianMaestro

@*ahnafakeef, * can you audition the LCD-2 and a few choice amps, where you are? In the end, specs on paper, calculations of wattage, and reviews won't tell the whole story -- it's what you hear that matters in the end. They're useful but only up to a point.


----------



## ahnafakeef

@x RELIC x Thank you for such a detailed reply. That really did help. I've decided to go for a dedicated DAC and a dedicated amp and am considering Schiit's Gungnir and Mjolnir 2 combo at the moment. This is intended to achieve what I think you head-fiers call 'end game'. Although, I have zero knowledge as to whether I want a multi bit or delta sigma Gungnir and whether I want a tube or solid state Mjolnir 2. It would really help if someone could explain the difference it makes in the sound quality *in layman's terms*.
  
 And what does balanced output mean?
  
 Also, please do not hesitate to chime in if you feel that I could make a more educated decision in any regard.
  
@CanadianMaestro Unfortunately, I do not have the option of trying out these high end amps/headphones as they are not locally available. So I cannot but trust the expertise of audiophiles on these forums.
  
 Again, thanks a lot to everyone for bearing with me to help me make an educated decision. I really appreciate your patience.


----------



## CanadianMaestro

Here's a link on balanced cabling:
 http://www.headphone.com/pages/balanced-headphones-guide
  
 In a nutshell, there is a larger voltage swing (output) with balanced, and better noise rejection.
  
 Here's a link about tube vs. SS:
 http://headphonehub.blogspot.ca/2013/03/pitfalls-of-vacuum-tube-amplifiers.html
  
 Other headamps to browse:
 http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/1212/headphone_amplifier_shootout.htm
  
 Hope these help.


----------



## BassDigger

ahnafakeef said:


> Thank you, but I was hoping to get something MUCH cheaper.
> 
> So I'll rephrase - what is the CHEAPEST amp that will sufficiently power an LCD-2?
> 
> Thank you.


 
  
 Wow! This thread's come alive!
  
 My suggestion was going to be as Arnotts mentioned, the Gustard H10. It's not end-game, but it does work nicely with planar 'phones, like the LCD 2, and it's well made and excellent value for money.
  
 It does frustrate me when people try to judge power requirements with simple maths and transducer sensitivity calculations. Yeah, sure, a few micro-watts will get the driver moving, and may be plenty loud, but an amp's main job is to control the driver, and for that you need good power. I've used the LCD 2's underpowered (but still many times what some are recommending), and whilst the sound was good, it really tightened up and gained some kick when I got the more powerful amp.
  
 My suggestion would be 500mw minimum; this should have reasonable control, but you'd want more power at your next upgrade.
 1 watt, as Audeze suggest, would be ok, especially if it's a transformer equipped tube amp; tubes have more flexible power delivery than SS.
 2 + watts is plenty.
  
 Also, the advice to concentrate on getting the best 'phones, for you, I agree with. You choose the amp to drive the phones. The phones are the thing that you actually hear; the quality, and characteristic, differences between different headphones are much more apparent than the differences between other components.
  
 That leaves the DAC. Basically, my opinion is to just get the best that you can afford. The LCD 2's, as already mentioned, are perhaps an end-game headphone; they really will show the quality of whatever you have connected. And I mean that in ultimate terms. Yes, some phones do certain things better. But if you want reality and tonal purity, you can't get much better.
 So, I'd spend more on the dac; the difference in tonal balance tends to be less, than amps or 'phones; you simply just get more of the music, the more you spend. And I'm an R-2R man; I'd definitely suggest the Gungnir MB, if your funds can stretch that far.
  
  P.S. Don't go there; balanced, single-ended? That's just another rabbit hole...either will do.


----------



## CanadianMaestro

Going balanced made a BIG improvement when I had my LCD-2.2 prefaz. SE ain't bad, but balanced left it in the dust. just sayin'...


----------



## BassDigger

canadianmaestro said:


> Going balanced made a BIG improvement when I had my LCD-2.2 prefaz. SE ain't bad, but balanced left it in the dust. just sayin'...


 
  
 Sure, I believe you. But was it the 'balance', or was it just a better amp that made the difference?
  
 I'm open to any possibilities; I've read stuff arguing both ways. I thought it would be better just to keep things simpler, for now.
  
 BTW, comparing balanced and SE, on the same amp, probably doesn't count.


----------



## CanadianMaestro

bassdigger said:


> Sure, I believe you. But was it the 'balance', or was it just a better amp that made the difference?
> 
> I'm open to any possibilities; I've read stuff arguing both ways. I thought it would be better just to keep things simpler, for now.
> 
> BTW, comparing balanced and SE, on the same amp, probably doesn't count.


 

 I used LCD on a balanced amp, BHA-1, with balanced sources.
 Compared it to SE from same amp.
  
 p.s. I don't listen to my music at loud levels, and I am not a basshead.


----------



## BassDigger

I think that in most balanced amps, with SE outputs, the SE output is compromised, compared to the balanced output.
  
 It's easy enough to get a balanced cable and fit it to the LCD2, so to just get the best option, whether it's balanced or not, would be my advice.
  
 EDIT: "p.s. I don't listen to my music at loud levels, and I am not a basshead." 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 What's the relevance?


----------



## CanadianMaestro

SE output is not "compromised". It just has half the V swing of the bal output. Can still drive many HPs with authority, the BHA-1 that is. Don't know about other bal amps like WA22, etc.
  
 If our friend has a "no compromise" mind-set, all I'm saying is that he should take a serious gander at going balanced for a headphone like LCD-2.


----------



## CanadianMaestro

bassdigger said:


> EDIT: "p.s. I don't listen to my music at loud levels, and I am not a basshead."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Some have a misconception that amps with lots of juice are only good for playin' loudly and with bassy music. Not necessarily true, obviously.


----------



## jodgey4

canadianmaestro said:


> SE output is not "compromised". It just has half the V swing of the bal output. Can still drive many HPs with authority, the BHA-1 that is. Don't know about other bal amps like WA22, etc.
> 
> If our friend has a "no compromise" mind-set, all I'm saying is that he should take a serious gander at going balanced for a headphone like LCD-2.




Even the Bryston engineers will tell you the SE is compromised. Amps designed to perform with balanced outputs usually have an SE thrown on just for convenience, and that output isn't given much attention. Same exact story with my NFB-28, even the Ragnarok and Mjolnir have the same thing, ask Schiit. Please do your research before posting. Balanced is not always better - you're paying for two amps, so parts are usually cheaper when compared to similarly priced SE products.


----------



## MRC001

ahnafakeef said:


> Thank you, but I was hoping to get something MUCH cheaper.
> 
> So I'll rephrase - what is the CHEAPEST amp that will sufficiently power an LCD-2?
> 
> Thank you.


 

 The cheapest I have found is the Meier Corda Jazz. It is just an amp - no DAC. Costs around $400 when I bought it over a year ago. Its low price belies its absolutely excellent sound quality. Super clean, neutral, transparent, enough oomph to drive almost any headphone, with selectable gain (high/low) and it also has the best crossfeed circuit I've heard, which can be turned off if that's not your thing. It also has no potentiometer in the signal path, but a ladder stepped switch electronically actuated by an analog potentiometer that is not in the signal path. This is totally unheard of at its price range, providing perfect channel balance and the same transparent sound quality throughout the full range of the volume knob. Its sound compares with amps that cost several times its price. You can find reviews here on this site.
  
 PS I just looked at Meier's site and the price of the Jazz has dropped to $340. He's based on Germany so we can thank Greece and the historically low value of the Euro vs dollar for that. Definitely fits the bill for "cheapest amp that will sufficiently power an LCD-2". More than sufficient.
  
 PPS I have no business affiliation with Meier other than being a very satisfied customer.
  
 PPPS *Recommend way to get the most out of the LCD-2 or any good headphone, on minimum budget*: make your DAC a high quality sound card (like an ESI Juli@), run sound card analog output to a Corda Jazz. Cost would be about $150 for the sound card, $350 for the amp, total $500 for a DAC and amp with great sound and that will let you listen to anything and drive almost any SE headphone.


----------



## CanadianMaestro

jodgey4 said:


> Even the Bryston engineers will tell you the SE is compromised. Amps designed to perform with balanced outputs usually have an SE thrown on just for convenience, and that output isn't given much attention.


 

 SE doesn't *sound *compromised to my ears -- I use it with my HE560.
  
 I didn't say balanced was *always* better. Definitely with LCD-2.2 in my experience.
  
 cheers


----------



## MRC001

canadianmaestro said:


> SE doesn't *sound *compromised to my ears -- I use it with my HE560.
> I didn't say balanced was *always* better. Definitely with LCD-2.2 in my experience.


 
 Running my LCD2-F from the Oppo HA-1, I can't tell a difference in sound quality between SE and Balanced. But it takes long enough to swap the SE to Balanced cable at the headphone, and adjust the volume 6 dB to account for the SE lower output level, it's not an ideal switch. Fast switching is better for hearing subtle differences.
  
 That said, the HA-1 was designed to run in balanced mode from the DAC implementation through the analog stage; measures slightly better in balanced mode. And the 6 dB higher output enables me to use low gain mode. So I'm sticking with balanced output whether or not I can hear any difference in sound quality.


----------



## Stealthyduc

I bought the JDS labs Element about a month ago with my LCD-2s and it sounds great. I'm not a seasoned veteran by any means but the pair definitely sends shivers down my spine (in a good way).


----------



## CanadianMaestro

So many amps, so little time.....


----------



## Amish

Having owned the BHA-1 and SE as well as a couple pair of balanced cables for my LCD2 I can say without a doubt that the BHA-1 using balanced cables was a marked improvement. I'm not talking SQ here..but it really brought the LCD's alive.
  
 A good amp with just SE output is amazing too with these headphones. I still haven't found an amp that makes me smile with my LCD's as much as the Project Ember amp does. It just can't be beat in it's price range. IMO of course.


----------



## CanadianMaestro

amish said:


> Having owned the BHA-1 and SE as well as a couple pair of balanced cables for my LCD2 I can say without a doubt that the BHA-1 using balanced cables was a marked improvement. I'm not talking SQ here..but it really brought the LCD's alive.
> 
> A good amp with just SE output is amazing too with these headphones. I still haven't found an amp that makes me smile with my LCD's as much as the Project Ember amp does. It just can't be beat in it's price range. IMO of course.


 

 Why'd you sell it?


----------



## jodgey4

Those saying that balanced on a BHA-1 is better still can't say if that's a product of amp design or actual power output. I just don't want people to conflate the two. Saying balanced is always better than SE is not viable, when all other variables are the same (power, slew rate, internal noise levels, etc.). The only time this would certainly be true is over long runs, where balanced wins due to common noise rejection.


----------



## Amish

canadianmaestro said:


> Why'd you sell it?


 
 The BHA-1? Because I preferred the Ember. I'm on my second Ember which is the mkII (sold my first Ember to put money towards the BHA-1) and though the BHA-1 is an amazing amp and one of the most dead silent amps I have had the pleasure to use but I found I missed the Ember so I bought the Ember mkII and ran it along side the BHA-1. After a couple of months I realized the Ember was the more enjoyable amp for me so I sold the BHA-1 because I didn't see the point of having it just sit there.
  
 Also I have to admit that I'd not buy another BHA-1 again.


----------



## CanadianMaestro

Bryston a while back when they first came out with the BHA-1, acknowledged that SE is the "default" state of most, if not all, HPs. As such, the notion that SE circuitry in their amp is an "afterthought" is just plain wrong. Everything Bryston designs and implements is not an after-thought for marketing filler or whatever.
  
 http://bryston.com/PDF/brochures/BHA1_BROCHURE.pdf
  
 The balanced output is an intentional product of their design and is manifested as boosted voltage swing at the jacks.
  
 In the end, their amp does very well with a lot of HPs, SE and balanced.


----------



## Amish

jodgey4 said:


> Those saying that balanced on a BHA-1 is better still can't say if that's a product of amp design or actual power output. I just don't want people to conflate the two. Saying balanced is always better than SE is not viable, when all other variables are the same (power, slew rate, internal noise levels, etc.). The only time this would certainly be true is over long runs, where balanced wins due to common noise rejection.


 
  
 To me it comes down to the ouput. SQ sounded the same to me but the output makes a big difference when running balanced.


----------



## CanadianMaestro

amish said:


> The BHA-1? Because I preferred the Ember. I'm on my second Ember which is the mkII (sold my first Ember to put money towards the BHA-1) and though the BHA-1 is an amazing amp and one of the most dead silent amps I have had the pleasure to use but I found I missed the Ember so I bought the Ember mkII and ran it along side the BHA-1. After a couple of months I realized the Ember was the more enjoyable amp for me so I sold the BHA-1 because I didn't see the point of having it just sit there.
> 
> Also I have to admit that I'd not buy another BHA-1 again.


 

 I toyed with getting Ember. Got Polaris instead. I just didn't know where to begin with tube rollin', and didn't want the added expenses of tubes down the road. No regrets.


----------



## CanadianMaestro

amish said:


> Also I have to admit that I'd not buy another BHA-1 again.


 
 It's certainly not for every taste. Very honest in its delivery of the goods.


----------



## jodgey4

SE =/= balanced on the BHA-1. The SE is a summed output from the balanced section, which usually alters the signal. If I'm mistaken, please use facts, not anecdotes and mythology. Balanced and SE are merely different, not in a hierarchy.


----------



## CanadianMaestro

I humbly stand corrected.


----------



## Amish

canadianmaestro said:


> I toyed with getting Ember. Got Polaris instead. I just didn't know where to begin with tube rollin', and didn't want the added expenses of tubes down the road. No regrets.


 
 Hey I own the Polaris as well. I find it to sound quite a lot like the Ember (other than being able to swap tubes of course) and I think the Polaris is another great amp for hardly no coin.
  
 I really need to bring my polaris and a dac to work for my desk.


----------



## CanadianMaestro

amish said:


> Hey I own the Polaris as well. I find it to sound quite a lot like the Ember (other than being able to swap tubes of course) and I think the *Polaris is another great amp for hardly no coin.*
> 
> *I really need to bring my polaris and a dac to work for my desk.*


 
 +1 on that.
  
 It's not "work" then if you're listening to musik....


----------



## jodgey4

canadianmaestro said:


> I humbly stand corrected.


 
 Sorry if I was short with y'all, lots of caffeine, no food, high stress kinda day. . It's a complicated subject with lots of nuance.
  
 I really wanna try the Ember tbh, I think a hybrid would be fun to hear, and should be versatile for my Q701's as well.


----------



## CanadianMaestro

I thought Texans were a laid back bunch?


----------



## jodgey4

canadianmaestro said:


> I thought Texans were a laid back bunch?


 
 We're laid back until you mess with Texas! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 My family is from California, so that doesn't explain it either!


----------



## MRC001

jodgey4 said:


> SE =/= balanced on the BHA-1. The SE is a summed output from the balanced section, which usually alters the signal.


 
 One simple way to convert balanced to SE is to short the balanced - to unbalanced ground, wire the balanced + to unbalanced +, and don't connect the balanced shield ground to anything on the unbalanced side. This cuts the signal voltage in half, 6 dB quieter, which means if the noise level remains the same, the S/N ratio got worse by the same 6 dB. But theoretically, other than a noise floor 6 dB higher, it doesn't introduce any distortion. If the noise floor was low enough to begin with, it's subjectively transparent.
  
 In that sense, SE is not necessarily inferior to balanced in practice. Balanced done right is theoretically superior, but SE can be just as good for all practical purposes. For an extreme example, my phono head amp has 60 dB of gain, all cabling unbalanced, yet the noise level is incredibly low. It's properly grounded and cable runs are short.


----------



## jodgey4

mrc001 said:


> One simple way to convert balanced to SE is to short the balanced - to unbalanced ground, wire the balanced + to unbalanced +, and don't connect the balanced shield ground to anything on the unbalanced side. This cuts the signal voltage in half, 6 dB quieter, which means if the noise level remains the same, the S/N ratio got worse by the same 6 dB. But theoretically, other than a noise floor 6 dB higher, it doesn't introduce any distortion. If the noise floor was low enough to begin with, it's subjectively transparent.
> 
> In that sense, SE is not necessarily inferior to balanced in practice.


 
 True about grounding. I've just always heard that manufacturers do it differently, couldn't tell ya why. If you have any info on the BHA-1 that contradicts what I've asserted, let me know so we can set the record straight. I just find it very unlikely that going to balanced alone produces all the tales of marvel and awe.


----------



## MRC001

jodgey4 said:


> I just find it very unlikely that going to balanced alone produces all the tales of marvel and awe.


 
 I share your skepticism.
  
 Balanced was designed for pro situations, like mics with very low level signals and high output impedance traveling along a 50' cord. That's a worst case scenario begging for hum/noise which balanced eliminates or at least reduces.
  
 In most home audio situations, it makes no practical difference. If single ended doesn't sound right, better to find and fix the underlying problem, than use balanced mode to hide it.
  
 It's nice to have but not a must-have. If your gear supports balanced mode, use it and smile. But if it doesn't don't worry, you're not missing anything.


----------



## BassDigger

mrc001 said:


> ...
> *Balanced *was designed for pro situations,...
> 
> ...*It's nice to have but not a must-have. If your gear supports balanced mode, use it and smile. But if it doesn't don't worry, you're not missing anything.*


 
  
 +1
  
 I think that's a good mantra for any of us scratching our head and trying to decide on an amp, especially for the LCD2.
  
 Balanced is just another rabbit hole; you could get lost for years. But there's just too little agreement on the merits and de-merits. There're enough, more important rabbits holes, that should be investigated first.


----------



## marcan

It is the push/pull of the BHA-1 that makes the balanced output really shine on the LCD.


----------



## jodgey4

marcan said:


> It is the push/pull of the BHA-1 that makes the balanced output really shine on the LCD.


 If I'm not mistaken, push/pull implies balanced by default. So what you're saying is the balanced output makes the balanced output shine.


----------



## Rob80b

mrc001 said:


> I share your skepticism.
> 
> Balanced was designed for pro situations, like mics with very low level signals and high output impedance traveling along a 50' cord. That's a worst case scenario begging for hum/noise which balanced eliminates or at least reduces........


 
 Balanced headphone connections and balanced interconnect connections should not be confused as they do not serve the same purpose, balanced interconnects as you've noted are used mainly to reduce noise though cancellation by incorporating a +  a - and a common ground. Headphones being a passive devise are more or less immune to noise due to grounding or RF signals and even very long runs of single ended headphone cables will not be inherent to induced noise, resistance and a change in impedance possibly and balanced headphones are powered with a left + and - and a right + and - signal and do not share a common ground and therefore totally discrete, no cross-talk.
   
 Quote:


jodgey4 said:


> If I'm not mistaken, push/pull implies balanced by default. So what you're saying is the balanced output makes the balanced output shine.


 
 Possibly….the Bryston BHA-1 in discussion does supply a discrete + & - signal in balanced mode to the headphone which could be beneficial to some headphone drivers.
 I’ve only had my LCD2.2s for a short while but being planar magnetics they do appear to benefit the most from the balanced connection more than all my other previous dynamic headphones with added stage width and depth and possibly better base over the single ended connection.


----------



## BassDigger

jodgey4 said:


> If I'm not mistaken,* push/pull implies balanced by default*. So what you're saying is the balanced output makes the balanced output shine.


 


rob80b said:


> *Balanced headphone connections and balanced interconnect connections should not be confused* ...
> 
> ….the Bryston BHA-1 in discussion does supply a discrete + & - signal in balanced mode to the headphone which could be beneficial to some headphone drivers.
> I’ve only had my LCD2.2s for a short while but being planar magnetics they do appear to benefit the most from the balanced connection more than all my other previous dynamic headphones with added stage width and depth and possibly better base over the single ended connection.


 
  






 Are we still down this rabbit hole?
  
 Ok. I can see why a push/pull design could work better, with planars, with their higher power requirements and the way that they have a trace through the driver, rather than a coil.
  
 It reminds me that single-ended outputs, are just that; outputs from a single-ended design. But, does that mean that all balanced headphone outputs are push/pull?
  
 That's why this rabbit hole is such a distraction; there's even confusion about what 'balanced' means!


----------



## Rob80b

jodgey4 said:


> SE =/= balanced on the BHA-1. The SE is a summed output from the balanced section, which usually alters the signal. If I'm mistaken, please use facts, not anecdotes and mythology. Balanced and SE are merely different, not in a hierarchy.


 
 Maybe I have misread you…but you cannot sum neither the minus nor positive outputs from a balanced amp such as the BHA-1 as that would combine the left and right channels…. definitely a no no. The single ended out put comprises solely from the left + and right + and chassis ground…although one would get the same results using the left – and right – and chassis ground.


----------



## CanadianMaestro

bassdigger said:


> Are we still down this rabbit hole?
> 
> Ok. I can see why a push/pull design could work better, with planars, with their higher power requirements and the way that they have a trace through the driver, rather than a coil.
> 
> ...


 
 See this post from James Tanner:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/560499/new-headphone-amplifier-from-bryston/1590#post_11716014


----------



## MRC001

jodgey4 said:


> If I'm not mistaken, push/pull implies balanced by default. So what you're saying is the balanced output makes the balanced output shine.


 
 Audio terminology can be ambiguous and confusing.
  
 Push-pull is also used to describe class B and AB amplifiers, which drive the output with 2 tubes or transistors in reverse polarity to each other - one side to handle negative swings, the other to handle positive.
  
 Single ended is also used to describe class A amplifiers, which bias the tube or transistor so high, the sum of signal + bias never goes negative, so one device handles the entire waveform both positive & negative swings; it doesn't have pairs in reverse polarity.


----------



## BassDigger

canadianmaestro said:


> See this post from James Tanner:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/560499/new-headphone-amplifier-from-bryston/1590#post_11716014


 
  


Spoiler: Post from James Tanner:



Quote: 





james tanner said:


> Hi Folks,
> 
> I wrote this a while ago but it may help.
> 
> ...


 
  
 To me, it seems to read like he's describing balanced line level connections, between electronic components, rather than the output topology of a headphone amp. (Or implying that this is the relevant/correct meaning of the phrase.)
  
 Also, he doesn't seem to be advocating fully balanced as a preferable solution, unless I'm misunderstanding.
  
 The rabbit hole continues to wind and turn!


----------



## Rob80b

canadianmaestro said:


> See this post from James Tanner:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/560499/new-headphone-amplifier-from-bryston/1590#post_11716014


 

 Not to be applied to balanced headphone cables
  
 To quote myself.


rob80b said:


> Balanced headphone connections and balanced interconnect connections should not be confused as they do not serve the same purpose, balanced interconnects as you've noted are used mainly to reduce noise though cancellation by incorporating a +  a - and a common ground. Headphones being a passive devise are more or less immune to noise due to grounding or RF signals and even very long runs of single ended headphone cables will not be inherent to induced noise, resistance and a change in impedance possibly and balanced headphones are powered with a left + and - and a right + and - signal and do not share a common ground and therefore totally discrete, ...........


----------



## MRC001

rob80b said:


> Maybe I have misread you…but cannot sum neither the minus nor positive outputs from a balanced amp such as the BHA-1 as that would combine the left and right channels…. definitely a no no. The single ended out put comprises solely from the left + and right + and chassis ground…although one would get the same results using the left – and right – and chassis ground.


 
 A headphone or speaker naturally responds to the difference between signal & ground. So it works the same way whether or not the incoming signal is balanced. If the incoming signal is unbalanced, the ground is in fact a ground, and if it's balanced, the ground is another signal that is the exact opposite of the + signal, but either way the difference between them is your musical signal.
  
 Because the signal - on a balanced output is always the exact opposite of the +, you can simply ignore it and take the + alone. Doing so, you've converted balanced to unbalanced. Theoretically, nothing is lost, except the amplitude is cut in half (thus 6 dB quieter).


----------



## Rob80b

mrc001 said:


> A headphone or speaker naturally responds to the difference between signal & ground. So it works the same way whether or not the incoming signal is balanced. If the incoming signal is unbalanced, the ground is in fact a ground, and if it's balanced, the ground is another signal that is the exact opposite of the + signal, but either way the difference between them is your musical signal.
> 
> Because the signal - on a balanced output is always the exact opposite of the +, you can simply ignore it and take the + alone. Doing so, you've converted balanced to unbalanced. Theoretically, nothing is lost, except the amplitude is cut in half (thus 6 dB quieter).


 

 Correct... but a balanced headphone output could also in theory reduce any inherent cross talk as there is no common ground to the drivers as there is with the single ended output.
  
 BHA-1 outputs.

  
 (The dual XLR 3 pin outputs  do show a common ground at pin 1 but again that is not used or shouldn’t be with the actual balanced headphone cable.)


----------



## Rob80b

Another consideration to keep in mind and may be beneficial to the very thin planar magnetic membrane and their quicker electrical response is if the amp in question is a full Class “A”, which produces a better linear output…. less crossover distortion of the reproduced/amplified waveform and constant standing current availability …unlike  Class A/B…..but.. class “A” amps like the Bryston BHA-1 can get a little toasty at times.
  
 Class A
  

  
  
 Class B


----------



## CanadianMaestro

This thread's turnin' into a Physics class.


----------



## Rob80b

canadianmaestro said:


> This thread's turnin' into a Physics class.


 

 We'll switch over to "chemistry" and headphones later on this evening. lol


----------



## CanadianMaestro

^^ All for that, man.


----------



## ahnafakeef

canadianmaestro said:


> Here's a link on balanced cabling:
> http://www.headphone.com/pages/balanced-headphones-guide
> 
> In a nutshell, there is a larger voltage swing (output) with balanced, and better noise rejection.
> ...


 
 Thanks a lot for the links, @CanadianMaestro. They were very informative.
  


mrc001 said:


> The cheapest I have found is the Meier Corda Jazz. It is just an amp - no DAC. Costs around $400 when I bought it over a year ago. Its low price belies its absolutely excellent sound quality. Super clean, neutral, transparent, enough oomph to drive almost any headphone, with selectable gain (high/low) and it also has the best crossfeed circuit I've heard, which can be turned off if that's not your thing. It also has no potentiometer in the signal path, but a ladder stepped switch electronically actuated by an analog potentiometer that is not in the signal path. This is totally unheard of at its price range, providing perfect channel balance and the same transparent sound quality throughout the full range of the volume knob. Its sound compares with amps that cost several times its price. You can find reviews here on this site.
> 
> PS I just looked at Meier's site and the price of the Jazz has dropped to $340. He's based on Germany so we can thank Greece and the historically low value of the Euro vs dollar for that. Definitely fits the bill for "cheapest amp that will sufficiently power an LCD-2". More than sufficient.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks for your valuable input, @MRC001


bassdigger said:


> Wow! This thread's come alive!
> 
> My suggestion was going to be as Arnotts mentioned, the Gustard H10. It's not end-game, but it does work nicely with planar 'phones, like the LCD 2, and it's well made and excellent value for money.
> 
> ...


 
 Thank you for your detailed response, @BassDigger
  
 ----------------------------------------------------
 Now, after having processed all that information, I have a few questions, and some more assistance to ask of. Please note that I'm maintaining the end-game stance in the following opinions.
  
 a) SS, tube, hybrid? No problem, since I'm leaning very much towards the Mjolnir 2 right now. Question - what's the difference between different tubes (LISST, 6B27 etc.) and which one(s) should I get?
  
 b) As for the DAC, I'm leaning towards the Gungnir. Question - multi bit or standard Gungnir? I'm still confused as to what difference it makes in the ultimate sound quality.
  
 c) Do I need an USB interface such as the Schiit Wyrd? It's $99, and I don't want to cut corners at this point.
  
 d) Last but not least (in fact the most important), could I possibly get a better setup for my money instead of an LCD-2+Gungnir+Mjolnir setup? I've opened up a new thread here (http://www.head-fi.org/t/780582/best-summit-fi-end-game-setup-for-3000) in order to find out. So please provide me with your valuable input and help me reach a decision.
  
 Thank you all very much for your kind cooperation. I really am grateful for your hospitality.


----------



## jodgey4

rob80b said:


> Possibly….the Bryston BHA-1 in discussion does supply a discrete + & - signal in balanced mode to the headphone which could be beneficial to some headphone drivers.
> I’ve only had my LCD2.2s for a short while but being planar magnetics they do appear to benefit the most from the balanced connection more than all my other previous dynamic headphones with added stage width and depth and possibly better base over the single ended connection.


 
 I wonder if a single sided planar has the same results. Probably shouldn't, but it does make me wonder.
  


bassdigger said:


> Are we still down this rabbit hole?
> But, does that mean that all balanced headphone outputs are push/pull?


 
  
 Yup. NOPE. Rectangle/square thing.


rob80b said:


> Maybe I have misread you…but you cannot sum neither the minus nor positive outputs from a balanced amp such as the BHA-1 as that would combine the left and right channels…. definitely a no no. The single ended out put comprises solely from the left + and right + and chassis ground…although one would get the same results using the left – and right – and chassis ground.


 
  
 Yes you can sum them, by inverting the - into a +. Like I said, I'm not really sure what summing means or why it's used (if that's how they do it at all),,, but I'm told that's how most balanced amps with SE outputs work.
  
 Also, you can connect the headphone cable shield to the ground pin1 on the 3-pin XLR balanced connector sometimes. Shouldn't really matter though because of noise rejection and sometimes weird ground loops.


----------



## jodgey4

ahnafakeef said:


> b) As for the DAC, I'm leaning towards the Gungnir. Question - multi bit or standard Gungnir? I'm still confused as to what difference it makes in the ultimate sound quality.
> c) Do I need an USB interface such as the Schiit Wyrd? It's $99, and I don't want to cut corners at this point.
> 
> d) Last but not least (in fact the most important), could I possibly get a better setup for my money instead of an LCD-2+Gungnir+Mjolnir setup? I've opened up a new thread here (http://www.head-fi.org/t/780582/best-summit-fi-end-game-setup-for-3000) in order to find out. So please provide me with your valuable input and help me reach a decision.


 
 b.) Multibit uses R2R chips instead of chips that use D-S approximation, which some say results on a smoother, more natural sound without as much glare in the treble. I can't comment on that, as I've only heard D-S ES9018 chips.
  
 c.) That's really system dependant. I'd probably say yes if you're using a USB cable length over 6' in total. Otherwise, it just depends on if your DAC uses the +5V from your PC PSU or not, and how clean or not that is.
  
 d.) I'd personally look into the LCD-X or 3, and buy a cheaper DAC/amp combo (I love my NFB-28, the NFB-29 would be great). Headphones >> gear... but also IME there's no clear winner amongst the LCD models. I basically like the X>2.2=2.2F>3>XC.


----------



## nicholars

Wow 100 posts in 48 hours good work.


----------



## Rob80b

jodgey4 said:


> ........................
> Yes you can sum them, by inverting the - into a +. Like I said, I'm not really sure what summing means or why it's used (if that's how they do it at all),,, but I'm told that's how most balanced amps with SE outputs work.


 
 I did do a little experiment a while ago with the BHA-1 to see I could indeed run a single ended headphone cable from the 4 pin balanced out, can’t remember why though (believe it was for my AKG K712s), but what happens as the left and right channel’s + and –‘s are discrete to those channels, at least with the Bryston BHA-1, what happens depending which minus one uses one gets let say one normal channel and sum of the left and right signal in the other channel., if one were to sum/combine the two –‘s the overall output would give you a mono signal instead of stereo.
  


jodgey4 said:


> ........................ Also, you can connect the headphone cable shield to the ground pin1 on the 3-pin XLR balanced connector sometimes.


 
 This you can do.


----------



## jodgey4

rob80b said:


> I did do a little experiment a while ago with the BHA-1 to see I could indeed run a single ended headphone cable from the 4 pin balanced out, can’t remember why though (believe it was for my AKG K712s), but what happens as the left and right channel’s + and –‘s are discrete to those channels, at least with the Bryston BHA-1, what happens depending which minus one uses one gets let say one normal channel and sum of the left and right signal in the other channel., if one were to sum/combine the two –‘s the overall output would give you a mono signal instead of stereo.


 
 What you  could do is build an adapter cable where it's TRS to 4-pin XLR, use the 2 + channels for L & R, and then tie the sleeve ground to the chassis of the 4-pin XLR and that should act as a common ground (assuming Bryston grounded the female end's chassis per the 4-pin XLR spec, which is 50/50.) But ya, that's off-topic, haha.


----------



## Rob80b

jodgey4 said:


> What you  could do is build an adapter cable where it's TRS to 4-pin XLR, use the 2 + channels for L & R, and then tie the sleeve ground to the chassis of the 4-pin XLR and that should act as a common ground (assuming Bryston grounded the female end's chassis per the 4-pin XLR spec, which is 50/50.) But ya, that's off-topic, haha.


 

 Tried that but the output for the 4 pin XLR is isolated from the chassis, could have used the dual 3 pin XLRs and used pin 1 as the common ground.
 IMHO not really off topic as we're really looking at different ways to get the most from our LCD-2s and an amp and cable are sort of essential.


----------



## BassDigger

ahnafakeef said:


> Thank you, but I was hoping to get something MUCH cheaper.
> 
> So I'll rephrase - *what is the CHEAPEST amp that will sufficiently power an LCD-2?*
> 
> Thank you.


 


ahnafakeef said:


> Thanks a lot for the links, @CanadianMaestro. They were very informative.
> Thanks for your valuable input, @MRC001
> Thank you for your detailed response, @BassDigger
> 
> ...


 
  
 Your original question was a very good one!
  
 Fair play for both your appreciation of the responses and starting a new thread. But those goal posts (remit, budget and topic) haven't half moved!


----------



## BassDigger

doriton said:


> I bought my LCD3 headphone from bay bloor radio, Toronto.* I need to know about external amp. From where exactly I can get it?*


 
  
 Hello Doris. Welcome. (It'd be a sensible precaution to remove your surname from your introductory post; you never know; all kinds of people lurking around on the internet! Just click on the pencil icon in the bottom left corner, and you can edit your post). 
  
 Regarding your questions:

That's what this thread is all about. _(Is there an lcd*3* amp thread? I dunno) _Rather than posting such an open question, I'd suggest that you read around, and start forming an idea about your budget and preferences. But yes, you'll definitely need an amp, to get the best out of the lcd3. But I'd suggest that you'll need to spend at least $1000, on an amp, to do justice to them.
This is the internet; I'm sure that it'll become very apparent when you start doing some research. But as always, once you've decided what you want, shop around; there's always a big variety of prices (and versions, if you're ok with Chinese clones) of the same thing.


----------



## Rob80b

doriton said:


> I bought my LCD3 headphone from bay bloor radio, Toronto. I need to know about external amp. From where exactly I can get it?


 

 Hi Doris
  
 Well… first off welcome to Head-Fi.
  
 BBR do have a few amps on hand, bought my Sennheiser HD800s from them around this time last year… did you audition the LCD-3s before buying and if so what did you try them on.
 I was actually there a few weeks ago to audition the 2.2Fs off their Bryston BHA-1, which I have, so I had a good grasp of what they were capable of and can highly recommend the Bryston /Audeze combo if it’s within your budget.
  
 But I am surprised you’ve jumped into the deep end with the LCD-3s without prior knowledge of heads-amps.... I just recently joined the Audeze club with a pair of used 2.2s pre fazor.... but hey you've got to start somewhere. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Robert


----------



## sikki-six

I can't really see why LCD3s necessarily "need" a +1000 dollar amp - aren't there many amps with very good specs for less money? Educate me too


----------



## CanadianMaestro

^ +1.  My LCD-2.2 sounded great out of a used Burson Soloist a few yrs ago. I suspect/expect LCD-3 should do the same.
 With planars, however, choose your amp carefully with due regard to mW output ratings.


----------



## sikki-six

What exactly is a very expensive amp going to do that the cheaper ones don't? (Even the most pricey parts are not gonna be expensive for the manufacturer, really.) I believe specs such as SNR, THD, power and output impedance are the most meaningful things to consider, not the price.


----------



## CanadianMaestro

Listening to amps/HPs will best answer your question. Synergy is important, and often defies specs on paper and pricing.


----------



## sikki-six

canadianmaestro said:


> Listening to amps/HPs will best answer your question. Synergy is important, and often defies specs on paper and pricing.


 
  
 Yeah, I guess you're right. One thing that makes a big difference too is the overall feel of the amp - does it look good, work well and hence, have an "aura" of good sound? An ugly cheapo amp might not do that for a lot of people, even if the sound is very good. There's that feeling of an amp being "enough", that's when you get some piece of mind with it.
  
 I realize this is what I'm going through with the Lyr 2. Maybe the Asgard 2 would have been all I need, but I'd second guess what I hear too much. Damn Head-fi!


----------



## CanadianMaestro

Enjoy the music first, sound analysis and looks last.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 But I hear ya about the amp's sonic qualities. Just don't let them overwhelm the musicality, in the end.


----------



## Rob80b

canadianmaestro said:


> ...................... Synergy is important, ...............


 
 With my setup the Bryston BHA-1 and LCD-2.2s have so far displayed a nice synergy, I’m running them balanced which may or may not make a huge difference, I‘ll try them once more unbalanced once their signature is properly etched into my memory 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




…  but what I can say so far is that I’m surprised by the amount of  stage width and depth which is contrary from I’ve read…so a nice surprise…not too different from my HD700s..but richer and fuller..the Senns having more extended treble produce more distinct layering and image separation and special cues.  The LCD2.2s are slightly more natural sounding timbre wise from many of my past headphones, base is extremely well executed, as is the midrange, the only thing they do lack is extended treble, which is to be expected just by glancing at their supplied frequency chart, which is not sorely missed and has been addressed to some degree with the inclusion of the fazor or one moves up to the LCD-3s.
 How much my overall impressions are on account of powering them off the BHA-1, my main source is also a Bryson BCD-1….but from what I’ve read and experienced so the Audeze/Bryston pairing is somewhat unanimous, but I’m sure other setups will produce similar impressions.


----------



## MRC001

sikki-six said:


> I can't really see why LCD3s necessarily "need" a +1000 dollar amp - aren't there many amps with very good specs for less money? Educate me too


 

 +1 exactly.
 Any well designed, well built solid state amp with high quality parts can drive the LCD3 to their full potential.
 Such amps don't have to cost a kilobuck - the Meier Corda Jazz is one example, there are several others.
  
 Proviso 1: they don't all necessarily sound the same, though they will be very similar and differences will be subtle.
  
 Proviso 2: beyond a certain point - among well designed, well built amps with high quality parts - the price has little relationship to the quality of build or sound.


----------



## BassDigger

bassdigger said:


> ...* to get the best out of the lcd3*. But* I'd suggest that you'll need to spend at least $1000, on an amp, to do justice to them.*


 
  


sikki-six said:


> I can't really see why LCD3s necessarily "need" a +1000 dollar amp - aren't there many amps with very *good specs* for less money? Educate me too


 
  


mrc001 said:


> +1 exactly.
> *Any well designed, well built solid state amp with high quality parts can drive the LCD3 to their full potential.*
> Such amps don't have to cost a kilobuck - the Meier Corda Jazz is one example, there are several others.
> 
> ...


 
  
 The lcd3 is a good $2000usd headphone. Getting a good amp to get the most out of them, makes sense, to me.
 If someone buys a good (and expensive) pair of headphones, why would they want to get a cheap amp? They might as well, just get cheaper headphones, and have more cash leftover, maybe to get a more synergistic amp.
  
 I'm not saying that you HAVE to spend $1000+ bucks, but that's probably the easiest solution for someone who's already splashed $2000usd on their headphones, and apparently has little understanding of audio equipment.
  
 If you're going to buy your amp, just based on the spec sheets, or what wattage should be enough to get 'X' volume level, with 'X' sensitivity headphone.....well, good luck with that!
  
 Beyond what price point is it that the price has little effect on SQ? Please let me know; it'll save me a lot of time and money!
  
 P.S. Doris's original post seems to have disappeared; was it something I said?


----------



## CanadianMaestro

rob80b said:


> With my setup the Bryston BHA-1 and LCD-2.2s have so far displayed a nice synergy, *I’m running them balanced which may or may not make a huge difference*, I‘ll try them once more unbalanced once their signature is properly etched into my memory
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I will say it (again)...BHA-1 bal made a substantial improvement for *my* LCD-2.2 in *my *system. Period.   I'm never hesitant to express my experiences firmly, regardless of whether I know the scientific basis for the sound profile.


----------



## Rob80b

bassdigger said:


> P.S. Doris's original post seems to have disappeared; was it something I said?


 
 Yep..all of 3 doriton's post have gone. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




..maybe something I said.


----------



## Rob80b

canadianmaestro said:


> I will say it (again)...BHA-1 bal made a substantial improvement for *my* LCD-2.2 in *my *system. Period.   ..........


 
 I won’t dismiss the fact, even an old dog can sometimes learn new tricks 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, but it is quite possible that planar magnetic drivers do indeed benefit more by having their left and right drivers fed a discrete +& - signal with no common ground...plus there's the added 3dB gain.
 But like I said I’ll will try the unbalanced connection, try and match the gain and see if indeed there is a noticeable difference and report back.


----------



## MRC001

bassdigger said:


> If someone buys a good (and expensive) pair of headphones, why would they want to get a cheap amp? They might as well, just get cheaper headphones, and have more cash leftover, maybe to get a more synergistic amp.
> 
> I'm not saying that you HAVE to spend $1000+ bucks, but that's probably the easiest solution for someone who's already splashed $2000usd on their headphones, and apparently has little understanding of audio equipment.


 
 There are different motivations in high end audio. Someone might get the most expensive stuff he can afford because he likes heavy nice looking gear or wants to impress his friends. But let's assume a different person who wants to get the best sound for a given dollar amount. For example for $2500 he can get an LCD2F with a $1500 amp, or an LCD3F with a $500 amp. Which will be better?
  
 It is possible to build a solid state amp, using top quality components where it matters (in the signal path, I'm not talking about giant fancy volume knobs), of good design, with all forms of distortion below human audible thresholds, when driving any normal headphone, like an LCD3F, which is an easy load to drive. And produce it for well under $1000.
  
 That doesn't mean it will sound the same as any other well designed and built amp. It does mean the differences will be subtle, and it also means whatever differences exist, are not necessarily "better" or "worse", just different. However, because of expectations in sighted listening, people tend to attach preferences to differences they hear aligned with price.
   
Consider for example the Meier Jazz vs the Bryston BHA-1. Differences will be subtle because both are very close to "the absolute sound". But let's assume a discerning listener could reliably tell them apart in a DBT. Knowing the BHA costs 4 times the Jazz ($1400 vs. $350), he would tend to assume the differences are in favor of the BHA. Yet without this knowledge - not knowing which was the Jazz or the BHA - preferences evaporate or split 50/50.

  
 Key point: hearing a difference is different from having a preference. Just cuz they sound different doesn't mean you like one over the other. And just cuz you prefer one to the other doesn't mean you can tell them apart in a double blind test.
  
 This is not mere supposition. Tests like this have been done many times and the results are consistent.
  
 I don't mean to pick on these 2 particular amps - just examples meeting the requirement of "past a certain point". Both of these amps are well designed and built, using top quality components with measurable distortion below human audible limits when driving any normal headphone load like the LCD-3F.


----------



## CanadianMaestro

There is the law of diminishing returns.
  
 A $2000 HP/amp is never twice better than a $1000 one.
  
 The higher you go, the less the effective sonic return on your money.


----------



## MRC001

rob80b said:


> it is quite possible that planar magnetic drivers do indeed benefit more by having their left and right drivers fed a discrete +& - signal with no common ground...plus there's the added 3dB gain.


 
   
Actually it's 6 dB (twice the voltage, 4x the power). I know of no law of physics that allows a planar driver to respond any differently from a discrete + / - signal versus a + signal at twice the amplitude against ground. Since there is no 3rd wire to give the headphone any sense of independent ground, electrically, they are indistinguishable. The difference in voltage between the 2 wires is exactly the same, and that's what any driver, planar magnetic or conventional, responds to. The only possible difference I can imagine is the higher noise floor of unbalanced or some form of noise being cancelled by the balanced that the unbalanced carries.


----------



## CanadianMaestro

Differential amps will have lower noise thru their balanced outputs. I think that's what may give the "better" oomph of a bal HP vs. a SE HP.


----------



## MRC001

canadianmaestro said:


> Differential amps will have lower noise thru their balanced outputs. I think that's what may give the "better" oomph of a bal HP vs. a SE HP.


 
 Possibly. Yet an SE amp can have a noise floor below -100 dB. The noise is already below threshold of hearing with music at any normal listening level. What difference does it make if it's 6 dB quieter? Does it matter if the noise you couldn't hear in the first place, is even quieter?
  
 Maybe it does, to some people. They like knowing their amp is super quiet. They couldn't hear the lower noise in a double blind test, they just like knowing it's lower.
  
 Others might ask, why pay twice as much for an amp whose noise is even quieter than noise I can't hear in the first place? The extra kilobuck I save buys a lot of music I can listen to.


----------



## CanadianMaestro

If one lives in a noisy environment like a condo/high-rise, where *dedicated power lines* aren't possible....then noise floor might be critical for enjoying small-scale classical music on HPs.
  
 cheers


----------



## MRC001

canadianmaestro said:


> If one lives in a noisy environment like a condo/high-rise, where *dedicated power lines* aren't possible....then noise floor might be critical for enjoying small-scale classical music on HPs.
> 
> cheers


 

 I agree. But this would not differentiate SE from balanced. The power supply on a SE amp can have enough filtration to run on quite a noisy AC line without a hint of ripple passing into the signal. In both cases noise floor well below human audibility.
  
 Don't take me wrong: balanced does have measurable advantages. But not necessarily audible advantages, compared with high quality SE amps in most normal audiophile applications. Most of the time, there's no *practical* drawback to well engineered and built SE.


----------



## MRC001

canadianmaestro said:


> There is the law of diminishing returns.
> 
> A $2000 HP/amp is never twice better than a $1000 one.
> 
> The higher you go, the less the effective sonic return on your money.


 
 Agree. Yet this is the price curve, not the performance curve.
  
 The performance curve is uncorrelated to price past a certain point. In some cases, paying more gives you inferior performance.
  
 So a $2000 amp is not necessarily ANY better than a $1000 one. It might be better, it might indistinguishable, it might actually be worse. In many cases, it costs twice as much for no reason other than it's produced in smaller batches (which is inherently more expensive). Or it has a fancier box and knobs.


----------



## Rob80b

mrc001 said:


> Actually it's 6 dB (twice the voltage, 4x the power). ....


 
 Quite sure it's 3db with the balanced out over single ended...6dBs total if one is also using a balanced source...the difference between the hi and low gain switch is 6dbs......if I'm not mistaken.


----------



## Rob80b

canadianmaestro said:


> Differential amps will have lower noise thru their balanced outputs. I think that's what may give the "better" oomph of a bal HP vs. a SE HP.


 
 The BHA-1 is basically two mono amps…not differential amps as used within components to cancel noise, balanced headphone cables offer no noise cancellation as there is between components with balanced connections. The only inherent advantage with a balanced headphone amp is in keeping the left and right channels discrete from one another, therefore reducing cross talk, there is no real increased gain but only perceived as such if the amp also offers a single ended output which will only use half of the amps output with a common ground to both channels.


----------



## CanadianMaestro

I think the advantage of diff amps, is that they don't pass on the noise to components downstream. Right?


----------



## MRC001

rob80b said:


> Quite sure it's 3db with the balanced out over single ended...6dBs total if one is also using a balanced source...the difference between the hi and low gain switch is 6dbs......if I'm not mistaken.


 

 I was referring to the 6 dB drop you get in theory, by cutting the voltage amplitude in half, which is what happens if you simply ignore the - side and take + to ground.
 It's not always converted that way, so actual amount may vary.


----------



## Rob80b

canadianmaestro said:


> I think the advantage of diff amps, is that they don't pass on the noise to components downstream. Right?


 

 Correct, for example the input of the BHA-1 is fully balanced but initially I ran single ended interconnects from my Bryston BCD-1 at the front of the living room to the BHA-1 behind the sofa which requires 35' of cable to follow the room boundaries  and had lots of noise and hum and very annoying with headphones 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





, but once I got them hooked up with balanced interconnects no noise, hum what so ever.... dead quiet.


----------



## Rob80b

And getting back to wither or not balanced headphone cables make a difference at least with the Bryston BHA-1, I spent the afternoon listening to Dead Can Dance’s “Spirit Chaser” with has lots going on in terms of the soundstage, great base etc but switching between single ended and balanced with the LCD-2.2s and once levels  were matched I could not perceive, try as I might, any perceived differences at all.
 I’ll give it more long term listening but I did the same awhile back with my AKG K701s,  Senn HD580/600s and my current HD700s and the results were the same, so much for my theory if whether or not planar magnetics would react differently.


----------



## CanadianMaestro

That's unsettling. If the noise floor is lowered in balanced, one should hear more in the recording vs. vol-matched SE.
 Get a live choral recording, like *Mozart's Requiem*, that has voices way at the back of the choir, and also lots of vocal inflections of the front-row soloists. Then get back to me.
  
 (this stuff should be in the *BHA-1 thread*...there are many other amps suited for the LCD-2 also here....)


----------



## Rob80b

canadianmaestro said:


> That's unsettling. If the noise floor is lowered in balanced, one should hear more in the recording vs. vol-matched SE.


 
 Again....there is no reduced noise with the balanced headphone cable, the volume control attenuates the output to the phones but not the amps actual power to achieve the same volume level between the single and balanced headphone output, not to be confused with with increasing or lowering volume to increase/decrease loudness with the same connection.
 Matching volume between different phones is another matter as efficiency and current draw will vary.


----------



## CanadianMaestro

rob80b said:


> Again....there is no reduced noise with the balanced headphone cable, the volume control attenuates the output to the phones but not the amps actual power to achieve the same volume level between the single and balanced headphone output.
> Matching volume between different phones is another matter as efficiency and current draw will vary.


 

 OK I got it, brain cramp on my part.
  
 So....no benefit with BHA-1 balanced out?? Is that the message? Even if I ran bal out from my BDA-1 fed by AES from BDP-1? That's what I do, and I hear better imaging.


----------



## Rob80b

canadianmaestro said:


> OK I got it, brain cramp on my part.


 
 Either way the BHA-1 is specked at >103 dBv (with 20 Hz to 22 kHz band pass filter) so very quiet and is pretty evident with the Audeze producing a very black background, as I'm sure you know.


----------



## Rob80b

canadianmaestro said:


> .........
> 
> So....no benefit with BHA-1 balanced out?? ......


 
 Only from the balanced "pre-outs" but do not use those to power your headphones. Using balanced between components is another matter...and I always use balanced when available.


----------



## MRC001

canadianmaestro said:


> That's unsettling. If the noise floor is lowered in balanced, one should hear more in the recording vs. vol-matched SE.


 
 Rob 80b gave a good answer. But even if the noise floor was lower, you won't hear any difference in the recording unless the prior noise floor was high enough to be audible (directly or indirectly). That won't happen with any well built solid state amp.


----------



## BassDigger

mrc001 said:


> *There are different motivations in high end audio.* Someone might get the most expensive stuff he can afford because he likes heavy nice looking gear or wants to impress his friends. But let's assume a different person who wants to get the best sound for a given dollar amount. For example for $2500 he can get an LCD2F with a $1500 amp, or an LCD3F with a $500 amp. Which will be better?
> 
> *It is possible to build a solid state amp, using top quality components where it matters (in the signal path, I'm not talking about giant fancy volume knobs), of good design, with all forms of distortion below human audible thresholds, when driving any normal headphone, like an LCD3F, which is an easy load to drive. And produce it for well under $1000.*
> 
> ...


 


canadianmaestro said:


> *There is the law of diminishing returns.*
> 
> A $2000 HP/amp is never twice better than a $1000 one.
> 
> The higher you go, the less the effective sonic return on your money.


 
  
 Guys, you're preaching to the converted; I am more than aware of diminishing returns, placebo effects and expectation bias!
 My lcd2's are my most expensive single hifi related purchase, only 'cos I didn't know of any kit headphones that would be as good. All my other gear is either S/H, clone, kit or modified vintage.
  
 Let's keep this in context; I was responding to a question about an amp for the $2000ish lcd3, from someone who didn't seem to know much about anything. I think that it was fair to suggest that spending some cash was going to be her easiest option; after all, her 'phones weren't cheap; if she could afford those, then why not the amp? And remember, these 'phones are good; they're about equivalent to a $3-5000+ pair of speakers, maybe more!
  
 Regarding what a 'good' amp _should_ cost: I guess it will be about $100 in parts. So by your reasoning, it appears that the finished product wouldn't cost much more to buy. Of course, we know that this is not the case. Although, perhaps I am in some agreement, when it comes to headphone amps, I think that to suggest that anything (or everything) above a certain price point is pretty much the same, is ultimately a little ignorant and naive. (Just look at the other discussion(s) taking place here.) The vast difference in headphone loads really does mean that different amps (technologies) work best for different 'phones. Some of those are surely more expensive to implement.
 Anyway, that's why I'm here; to learn about which equipment is more substance than lustre.
  
 One last point: I think that relying on measurements and theory is also a little naive; theory is just that, and measurements have yet to tell the whole story. Unfortunately, we've just got to trust ourselves, and our own hearing, to decide what really is getting us the best sound per pound. But a little help, from some like-minded people, is always appreciated!


----------



## MRC001

bassdigger said:


> ... when it comes to headphone amps, I think that to suggest that anything (or everything) above a certain price point is pretty much the same, is ultimately a little ignorant and naive. (
> ...
> One last point: I think that relying on measurements and theory is also a little naive; theory is just that, and measurements have yet to tell the whole story.



I generally agree. If anyone said everything above a certain price point sounds the same, or that measurements tell the whole story, I missed it.

When you say 'trust our ears' I would add 'trust but verify'. We must have the humility to acknowledge perceptions can be distorted by appearances, prices, expectations. We should trust our ears yet also apply knowledge and common sense to protect against that.


----------



## Vosegus

my 300$ NFB15 power LCD2F like nothing and they sound amazing.
 The only upgrade I might consider in the future is a powerfull tube amp. I honestly don't see a reason to shell out so much money on a solid state amp.


----------



## BassDigger

vosegus said:


> my 300$ NFB15 power LCD2F like nothing and they sound amazing.
> The only upgrade I might consider in the future is a powerfull tube amp. I honestly don't see a reason to shell out so much money on a solid state amp.




I spent the equivalent of about $250usd, on an amp for my lcd2f. It sounds great. But I know that they can sound better; like you, I fancy trying a potent tube amp. 

I think that it's just about trying to find that 'sweet spot', where you can be confident that you're getting enough out of your phones, and you know that your phones are the right ones. All within your budget, of course!


----------



## Rob80b

mrc001 said:


> Rob 80b gave a good answer. But even if the noise floor was lower, you won't hear any difference in the recording unless the prior noise floor was high enough to be audible (directly or indirectly). That won't happen with any well built solid state amp.


 

 Not only that, most of us do not have a noise free environment...here in TO we often get the odd power blackout, it's amazing the eerie silence that pursues…but then we have no power to run our rigs.


----------



## CanadianMaestro

A separate power generator for the floor rig is a good investment, with everything plugged into a power distributor/surge protector.
  
 Best time to listen to music is between 1030pm-2am here. Dead quiet, electrically.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
  
  
  
  
  
 (jk 'bout the generator)


----------



## Rob80b

canadianmaestro said:


> So....no benefit with BHA-1 balanced out?? ................


 
 Hey Maestro
  
 Now here’s a blurb completely supporting the superior benefits of a completely balanced headphone set-up.
http://www.headphone.com/pages/balanced-headphones-guide
  
 Now it may be because of the fact that the Bryston BHA-1 is a fine piece of electrical engineering to start with, incorporating a balanced dual mono circuitry with well thought out power supplies, which greatly benefits not only the balanced out but the single ended output so that the difference is negligible if non existent between the two, which could account to my inability to hear any differences once levels were matched. Other amps offering balanced and single ended may produce varying results with more obvious differences supporting a fully balanced configuration.


----------



## CanadianMaestro

looks familiar, that page... 
  
 The fact that Bryston engineered the hell out of the BHA-1 would indeed explain why some (not me) do not hear even the tiniest difference between SE and balanced. I had no doubt about the BHA-1's technical strengths, or about my hearing capabilities on HPs like LCD-2.2  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Thanks for the research and technical prowess -- time to just kick back, enjoy the music....


----------



## Rob80b

canadianmaestro said:


> looks familiar, that page...
> 
> The fact that Bryston engineered the hell out of the BHA-1 would indeed explain why some (not me) ............


 
 That may be because you get get that "Dead quiet" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...and that can make all the difference in the world.


canadianmaestro said:


> Best time to listen to music is between 1030pm-2am here. Dead quiet, electrically.


----------



## konstzorro

The IFI Retro Stereo 50, with LCD-2 and LS3.5 speakers (to the right) and a IKEA cutting board to balance the turntable (to the left). Besides the fact that everything is in bamboo, LCD-2 sings like never before with this EL84 amp. Seriously, I was ready to sell my LCD-2 because I could not get the amping right, but now I am VERY glad I didn't.


----------



## chillaxing

Alright guys. I know its been beaten to death.

Which amp out of all of these

Nfb-10
Nfb-15
Bustard
Lyr

Of course the latter 2 is going to need an amp, but which one has the best synergy out of the bunch. There a couple on the classies right now, and would like to get one before i get the my lcd


----------



## jodgey4

Do you mean the NFB-11? Or the 10.33?
  
 The Gustard is great for SS, and the Lyr is great for a hybrid. The NFB-11 and NFB-15 have fantastic musicality and power for the price. What's your total budget? You don't have a DAC?


----------



## chillaxing

jodgey4 said:


> Do you mean the NFB-11? Or the 10.33?
> 
> The Gustard is great for SS, and the Lyr is great for a hybrid. The NFB-11 and NFB-15 have fantastic musicality and power for the price. What's your total budget? You don't have a DAC?




My total budget is 500. 

Theres a nfb10es usb ver.
And a 10.33. If its worth the extra $
Woyldnt mind getting a new nfb11, if it comes down to it

No dac yet.

Which one will give me better bass. Since the 2.2f are "bass light"


----------



## chillaxing

Another question. Will i get a true tuby sound even though the lyr is a hybrid


----------



## CanadianMaestro

chillaxing said:


> Another question. Will i get a *true tuby sound* even though the lyr is a hybrid


 
 Define "true tuby sound"?
  
 If you want *full tube sound,* don't do hybrid. Get a tubed amp that is *not OTL* to adequately drive planars like LCD-2.


----------



## diamondears

konstzorro said:


> The IFI Retro Stereo 50, with LCD-2 and LS3.5 speakers (to the right) and a IKEA cutting board to balance the turntable (to the left). Besides the fact that everything is in bamboo, LCD-2 sings like never before with this EL84 amp. Seriously, I was ready to sell my LCD-2 because I could not get the amping right, but now I am VERY glad I didn't.



What's "not right" with your amping before with the LCD-2? How did the iFi retro 50 improve the sound?


----------



## chillaxing

alright boys and gals.  Just picked up a Lyr2, now to wait patiently for the other two pieces.....
  
 what do you guys think of the Asus xonar for my dac.  Headphone use for me is strictly at my desktop, thats why i was thinking of the soundcard.
  
 Or would a Modi2 or any of the mid-tier dacs be better?
  
 I would spend more on the dac but after some reading, it seems like I wont notice a difference in sound till I get to the really high end stuff.


----------



## jodgey4

An external DAC is a better choice for noise and guaranteed 2Vrms output. Stoner Acoustics UD120, Hifimediy, and some others make DACs in that price range. My DGX wasn't worth the money.


----------



## nicholars

How "bass light" is the LCD 2 fazor compared to the older LCD2? in %? 10%? 20%?


----------



## jodgey4

5% IHMO. It's a very slight difference - I notice more of a difference in the top octave of treble (about 10%).


----------



## nicholars

jodgey4 said:


> 5% IHMO. It's a very slight difference - I notice more of a difference in the top octave of treble (about 10%).


 
  
 You mean the fazors have more extended treble compared to the old ones? Maybe that is a reason why people hear them as "bass light" they are actually hearing more treble.


----------



## jodgey4

That's the theory. I wouldn't call it more extended, because it's less smooth, thus not being as easy for the ear to follow up to the top.


----------



## x RELIC x

I would agree. The idea of the Fazor LCD-2 being bass light comes from the perception of a clearer treble, IMO. All the wave guides do is help keep the sound pressure leaving the membrane more cohesive, which helps most in the treble region.


----------



## BobMonkhouse

Hm! I've been following this thread since I heard the pre-fazor LCD-2 a few months ago and loved it, so I started saving for a pair. It sounded just perfect out of O2/ODAC between 11 and 12 o'clock volume level. I also liked HD 650 with a WA2 amp. So, I thought I'd figured it all out - my agenda was to buy LCD-2 then HD 650, then an Ember hybrid amp, followed by another solid state amp alternative like O2/ODAC, NFB-11, NFB-15, Gustard H10, or thanks to this thread suggestion - Meier Audio Corda JAZZ. Now, I don't know if I'll like the fazor version because of the more prominent treble. I'm quite sensitive to the low 7 Khz range and don't like forward upper mids and highs in general. Probably, I should try to find a used pre-fazor LCD-2.


----------



## marcan

x relic x said:


> I would agree. The idea of the Fazor LCD-2 being bass light comes from the perception of a clearer treble, IMO. All the wave guides do is help keep the sound pressure leaving the membrane more cohesive, which helps most in the treble region.


 
 The LCD2 pre fazor has more low end than the the fazor, it's not psychoacoustic.


----------



## x RELIC x

marcan said:


> The LCD2 pre fazor has more low end than the the fazor, it's not psychoacoustic.




Not according to these ears, or these measurements. The treble is the biggest difference, but the bass barely changes from 40Hz to ~500Hz. More / added treble will always result in a perception of less bass.




Edit: I consider less than 40Hz not very relevant as there isn't much of it in most music.


----------



## marcan

x relic x said:


> Not according to these ears, or these measurements. The treble is the biggest difference, but the bass barely changes from 40Hz to ~500Hz. More / added treble will always result in a perception of less bass.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Come on.. It perfectly shows what I'm saying. Less low end in the 2F. The roll off starts at 50Hz on the 2F.
 Below 50Hz is relevant and hearable. Saying it's not relevant is a like saying above 10,000Hz is not relevant. You have one octave between 25 and 50Hz as between 10,000 and 20,000Hz.


----------



## x RELIC x

Fine, getting nit picky about 1db (yes I realize it's audible, but barely discernible at 40Hz and below) vs the 5db difference in the all important mids and various areas of the treble. Point is there is much more difference in the mids and treble than the bass between models. Plus sub bass that low simply isn't present in most music. Not counting pipe organs. The differences in 60Hz and up in the important bass region are definitely negligible. So in my opinion the bass difference with the Fazor compared to other releases of the LCD-2 is not really that different. You're welcome to your opinion.


----------



## burkut

I am happy with ifi micro idsd +  LCD-3 combo.
  
 Burkut


----------



## marcan

x relic x said:


> Fine, getting nit picky about 1db (yes I realize it's audible, but barely discernible at 40Hz and below) vs the 5db difference in the all important mids and various areas of the treble. Point is there is much more difference in the mids and treble than the bass between models. Plus sub bass that low simply isn't present in most music. Not counting pipe organs. The differences in 60Hz and up in the important bass region are definitely negligible. So in my opinion the bass difference with the Fazor compared to other releases of the LCD-2 is not really that different. You're welcome to your opinion.


 
 Of course I'm nit picky about bass and low end so I do hear the difference. That's why I love the LCD2.2 and I don't feel I need more high mids and treble with them.
 There is a lot happening below 60Hz. A bass guitar go down to 42Hz or even 30Hz (6 string bass). A kick can go down to 25Hz.
 Even if not everybody can put the finger on the low end it will definitely sound different without it for everybody.


----------



## nicholars

Maybe I would be better off with the old LCD2 then, I don't like bright treble or sibilance etc. and I like bass. Only problem is IDK if my amp will be powerful enough for the non fazor version. Maximum Power, 32 ohms: 1.2W RMS, 50 ohms: 0.80 RMS, 300 ohms: 145mW RMS.
  
 The things that look good about the fazor to me are a) lower amp requirement b) bigger soundstage / better imaging. The originals look good because better bass and smoother treble. But IDK how big the differences are and also if my amp will power the LCD 2.2 non fazor.
  
 MAIN thing that appeals to me about the LCD2 would be the bass and smooth treble... So it looks like the Fazor is not the same as what the LCD2 was famous for.


----------



## x RELIC x

marcan said:


> Of course I'm nit picky about bass and low end so I do hear the difference. That's why I love the LCD2.2 and I don't feel I need more high mids and treble with them.
> There is a lot happening below 60Hz. A bass guitar go down to 42Hz or even 30Hz (6 string bass). A kick can go down to 25Hz.
> Even if not everybody can put the finger on the low end it will definitely sound different without it for everybody.




Well, yes I agree that the low frequencies are important _when they are there_ but the difference with Fazor bass really is not as large as many seem to think it is. The thing is the original poster wanted to know if there was a _huge difference_ in bass. The fact is that there isn't a _huge difference_ in bass so he shouldn't be mislead. _The Fazor accentuates more mids and treble than affects the bass_. Yes, it's slightly reduced. Not as much as the mids and treble are enhanced, which gives the perception of even more reduced bass. That's it. That's all I was sharing with the original poster, and I'm not alone in this opinion as a couple others have also stated in the previous page. If the difference is huge to you that's great for you. Just not in my opinion, or what the measurements show.


----------



## CanadianMaestro

I haven't heard the fazor models, but did own 2.2 prefaz for a few years. Its bass was deep, tight, and very satisfying. Treble was smooth. Whether or not one places top priority on <50-Hz bass presence or not, the bass was there with the 2.2 to engage me in music containing kick drums, double bass, etc. And the graphs only tell part of the story. Your ears will be definitive, as will also the upstream amps and sources.
  
 cheers


----------



## marcan

x relic x said:


> Well, yes I agree that the low frequencies are important _when they are there_ but the difference with Fazor bass really is not as large as many seem to think it is. The thing is the original poster wanted to know if there was a _huge difference_ in bass. The fact is that there isn't a _huge difference_ in bass so he shouldn't be mislead. _The Fazor accentuates more mids and treble than affects the bass_. Yes, it's slightly reduced. Not as much as the mids and treble are enhanced, which gives the perception of even more reduced bass. That's it. That's all I was sharing with the original poster, and I'm not alone in this opinion as a couple others have also stated in the previous page. If the difference is huge to you that's great for you. Just not in my opinion, or what the measurements show.


 
 Fair enough. THe bass isn't that different but you have more low end in the pre fazor. And yes the high mids treble difference is more obvious.
 But in the end it's a question of taste.


----------



## chillaxing

Has anyone tried the e18 for the dac part?
  
 I was gonna get one for my portable rig, and was wondering if anyone used it for part of their lcd chain


----------



## BassDigger

bobmonkhouse said:


> Hm! I've been following this thread since I heard the pre-fazor LCD-2 a few months ago and loved it, so I started saving for a pair. It sounded just perfect out of O2/ODAC between 11 and 12 o'clock volume level. I also liked HD 650 with a WA2 amp. So, I thought I'd figured it all out - my agenda was to buy LCD-2 then HD 650, then an Ember hybrid amp, followed by another solid state amp alternative like O2/ODAC, NFB-11, NFB-15, Gustard H10, or thanks to this thread suggestion - Meier Audio Corda JAZZ. *Now, I don't know if I'll like the fazor version because of the more prominent treble. I'm quite sensitive to the low 7 Khz range and don't like forward upper mids and highs in general.* Probably, I should try to find a used pre-fazor LCD-2.


 
  
 I've continued this conversation here,
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/773138/lcd-2-r2-fazor-upgrade-worth-it#post_11921421
  
 as it's the closest topic _(that I can find)_


----------



## JamesBr

bassdigger said:


> I've continued this conversation here,
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/773138/lcd-2-r2-fazor-upgrade-worth-it#post_11921421
> 
> as it's the closest topic _(that I can find)_


 
 thanks for the link! appreciated!


----------



## pldelisle

Just bought a pair of used LCD-2 for a ridiculous price. It's incredible the sound that comes out of these cans. Asgard 2 drives them nicely.


----------



## Amish

Yeah I have listened to more headphones than I can remember and the LCD-2's are the best that have been on my head.
  
 Ether's tempt me but I have not heard them yet.


----------



## oAmadeuso

Got these and a Schiit Lyr 2 on order. Cant wait


----------



## munce31

oamadeuso said:


> Got these and a Schiit Lyr 2 on order. Cant wait


 
 I've got that combo already (w/LCD-2F). Also have the Bifrost Uber/USB dac. 
  
 You'll love it! I know I am.


----------



## oAmadeuso

munce31 said:


> I've got that combo already (w/LCD-2F). Also have the Bifrost Uber/USB dac.
> 
> You'll love it! I know I am.


 
 Couldn't quite stretch the budget to a Bifrost but hopefully the Modi 2 will do the job.
 Can't wait for the parcels to arrive 
  
 How are you getting on with the tubes? 
 I've got the LISTT (solid state) and 6BZ7's  but aware there's a whole world of options beyond those.
Have you found a particularly good match with the LCD-2Fs?


----------



## munce31

oamadeuso said:


> Couldn't quite stretch the budget to a Bifrost but hopefully the Modi 2 will do the job.
> Can't wait for the parcels to arrive
> 
> How are you getting on with the tubes?
> ...


 
  
 I currently have two sets of tubes -  Telsa E88CC's and the stock 6BQ7A's that come with amp - they're not too bad, but won't blow you away. I find the E88CC's to be more suited to my liking - a warmer sound. With the 6BQ7A's, I tend to find they loose the warmth of the E88CC's but the imaging is slightly more open. 
  
 I'm currently waiting on some Russian Voskhod 6N23P silver shield's. They're supposed to really open up the sound and the frequency extension in both ways (low to high) and offer better imaging. I'll report back when I get the 6N23P's and have had a good listen to them, 
  
 I've been wanting to get the LIIST cans but my local supplier is currently waiting for stock. Let us know how they sound with the LCD-2Fs. Should be a good match as the LCD-2's are a warmer sounding headphone, so having a set of LIIST cans in your Lyr can even out and bring the sound to a more neutral signature.


----------



## oAmadeuso

I'll be sure to post back on the LIISTs.
  
 Very new to this but there's a lot of posts here on tubes, have to get stuck in and do my research..
 Also need to find reliable suppliers in the UK.
  
 Some cheap russians on Etsy.


----------



## TheEnthusiast

I've read quite a bit of this thread and haven't seen anyone recommend the Deckard. Is Audeze's own amp no good for driving the LCD-2's? Or is it just garbage in general?


----------



## jodgey4

I've heard nothing but good things about the pairing... hmm.


----------



## TheEnthusiast

I read the thread on the Deckard itself. The people that had it seemed to like it very much. Just haven't seen it mentioned in this thread.
  
 Maybe my search-fu is weak still...


----------



## Sound Eq

is there a destop dac/amp with bass boost and treble boost all in one for a great price that will not cause a big hole in wallet
and at the same time drive the lcd2 much better than my portable alo mk3 amp

i like warm sound and big bass


----------



## Lohb

sound eq said:


> is there a destop dac/amp with bass boost and treble boost all in one for a great price that will not cause a big hole in wallet
> and at the same time drive the lcd2 much better than my portable alo mk3 amp
> 
> i like warm sound and big bass


 

 I'd personally go the speaker amp route with bass treble controls for what you are asking, then find a DAC that goes well with the amp and LCD-2.


----------



## CanadianMaestro

sound eq said:


> is there a destop dac/amp with bass boost and treble boost all in one for a great price that will not cause a big hole in wallet
> and at the same time drive the lcd2 much better than my portable alo mk3 amp
> 
> i like warm sound and big bass


 

 Do EQ. There good EQ software out there.


----------



## Sound Eq

canadianmaestro said:


> Do EQ. There good EQ software out there.


 
 as if i dont know that there good eq softwares out there, but sometimes i just liuke to do it on the go without the hassle of a software, old style knobs


----------



## PilotNorman

using schiit lyr and bifrost, they are pretty good for lcd2 and the price is affordable


----------



## nicholars

sound eq said:


> as if i dont know that there good eq softwares out there, but sometimes i just liuke to do it on the go without the hassle of a software, old style knobs


 
  
 The 31 band EQ in foobar is good. I tried using electriQ but after some time came to the conclusion it is more hassle than gain.


----------



## incursore61

Hello I bought back a LCD2, now that I have that with Fazor use with amp / dac WOO AUDIO WA7;
 My main source is iMac 27 "retina with Audirvana plus, now I want to try another type of solid state amplification maybe even balanced, I would use an amplifier without DAC because my Lector Digitube 192.
 What do you recommend ?
 thank you


----------



## CanadianMaestro

incursore61 said:


> Hello I bought back a LCD2, now that I have that with Fazor use with amp / dac WOO AUDIO WA7;
> My main source is iMac 27 "retina with Audirvana plus, now I want to try another type of *solid state amplification maybe even balanced, I would use an amplifier without DAC *because my Lector Digitube 192.
> What do you recommend ?
> thank you


 
 My reference bal amp is the Bryston BHA-1. 
 It was excellent with my LCD-2.2. Silver Dragon cable.


----------



## JamesBr

nicholars said:


> The 31 band EQ in foobar is good. I tried using electriQ but after some time came to the conclusion it is more hassle than gain.


 
 I realized that pretty quick to be honest ...


----------



## SashimiWu

Waddup guys!
  
 Doing a lot of reading lately on amplifiers since I recently purchased an LCD2-F.  It seems that generally, planar headphones require a lot more current than voltage.  I currently have the Element from JDSLabs which puts out around 1.1W @ 32 ohms.  Would I be better off with something like the Lyr 2 which puts out 6W @ 32ohms?  Would it make that much of a difference in terms of audible improvements?


----------



## jodgey4

That means you're getting about 500mW into the LCD-2, which is the minimum of what I recommend for the Fazor version. I say stick with the gear, you can always try new stuff later .


----------



## SashimiWu

jodgey4 said:


> That means you're getting about 500mW into the LCD-2, which is the minimum of what I recommend for the Fazor version. I say stick with the gear, you can always try new stuff later
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks for all the info dude.  You have been really helpful so far!


----------



## nicholars

So with a medium power amplifier, would the fazor actually work out having more bass and sounding better than the original 2.2 non fazor?
  
 For example 500mw powering the fazor vs 500mw powering the non fazor....
  
 Usually more power = better bass, so if the fazor is getting the recommended power vs the non fazor getting under the recommended power, would the fazor sound better at 500mw vs the non fazor which is recommended 1w ? (talking about the amount of bass)
  
 Trying to decide if I want the 2.2 or the fazor, my amp would be approx 500mw with the LCD2, the fazor apparently have less bass, but also have a lower amp requirement. Do the non-fazor LCD2 lose bass response when underpowered? So the fazor version would actually be better with 500mw?


----------



## CanadianMaestro

More power often translates into better, effortless control of the drivers. As compared to less power.


----------



## nicholars

canadianmaestro said:


> More power often translates into better, effortless control of the drivers. As compared to less power.


 
  
 Yeh and also low power often = weak bass, so with a 500mw amp I don't know if I would actually be better off with the fazor as they have 1/2 the amp requirement. Non fazer are supposed to have more bass, but what about an underpowered 2.2 vs a fazor with 500mw?


----------



## CanadianMaestro

nicholars said:


> Yeh and also low power often = weak bass, so with a 500mw amp I don't know if I would actually be better off with the fazor as they have 1/2 the amp requirement. Non fazer are supposed to have more bass, but what about an underpowered 2.2 vs a fazor with 500mw?


 
  
 My "policy" when I first acquired gear for my floor system was to assess my future upgrade requirements -- asking myself, if I upgrade my speakers later on, would my amps be deficient for driving them? So, having the means, I went for a high-wattage power amp that would not only drive my current spkrs but would leave me with plenty of room for future spkr u.g. For me, there's no such thing as "too much power". It's good to have plenty in reserve.  I might apply that to HPs, but to a less extreme degree. You should audition the amp with your LCD, before making a decision, especially if the amp is a pricey one. But there are lots of excellent amps that can drive the LCD to satisfying musicality.
  
 Note edit: I've used LCD-2.2 pre-faz, with Soloist and BHA-1. I have not used the fazors, nor an amp that might be regarded as "under-powered".


----------



## jodgey4

500mW ain't underpowered - it's just the low side of what you need for 120dB peaks - so you're already good to go with overhead. Claims about power and bass response aren't founded in anything scientific, so it's either the amp or loudness curves working that magic.


----------



## JK-47

nicholars said:


> Yeh and also low power often = weak bass, so with a 500mw amp I don't know if I would actually be better off with the fazor as they have 1/2 the amp requirement. Non fazer are supposed to have more bass, but what about an underpowered 2.2 vs a fazor with 500mw?


 

 The bass isn't necessarily weaker with lower power, but it will distort or clip sooner.


----------



## jodgey4

Power is V^/R, independent of frequency. Bass shouldn't be any different.


----------



## nicholars

I have always noticed one of the first things on underpowered headphones / amps, is weak bass, or distorted bass, but maybe I am wrong.


----------



## nicholars

canadianmaestro said:


> My "policy" when I first acquired gear for my floor system was to assess my future upgrade requirements -- asking myself, if I upgrade my speakers later on, would my amps be deficient for driving them? So, having the means, I went for a high-wattage power amp that would not only drive my current spkrs but would leave me with plenty of room for future spkr u.g. For me, there's no such thing as "too much power". It's good to have plenty in reserve.  I might apply that to HPs, but to a less extreme degree. You should audition the amp with your LCD, before making a decision, especially if the amp is a pricey one. But there are lots of excellent amps that can drive the LCD to satisfying musicality.
> 
> Note edit: I've used LCD-2.2 pre-faz, with Soloist and BHA-1. I have not used the fazors, nor an amp that might be regarded as "under-powered".


 
  
 Yes I sort of wish that I bought a 100w amp because with the 50W NAD 326Bee I am sort of stuck with standmounts now because I don't think it would be enough for for 3 way floorstanders.


----------



## jodgey4

nicholars said:


> I have always noticed one of the first things on underpowered headphones / amps, is weak bass, or distorted bass, but maybe I am wrong.


 
 I've definitely heard marked improvements from properly amping HE-400's, that's about it. I know what I heard (and I'm as cynical and skeptical as they come)... but I can't explain it. To be fair, the original source _was_ being pushed to its limits on current output. That exact observation is why I still recommend amps with overhead, even though the pure objectivists I normally side with probably hate me .


----------



## chillaxing

jodgey4 said:


> I've definitely heard marked improvements from properly amping HE-400's, that's about it. I know what I heard (and I'm as cynical and skeptical as they come)... but I can't explain it. To be fair, the original source _was_ being pushed to its limits on current output. That exact observation is why I still recommend amps with overhead, even though the pure objectivists I normally side with probably hate me .


 
  
  
 I'm like you, i'm a skeptic too.  thats why i don't believe in overly priced amps and dacs.  But I do believe in headroom for any driver.  
  
 Headroom is a good thing, and this is why.  So ie, lets take the lyr.  it put out 6w@32ohms.  That output will only be seen at full tilt with hi-gain.  at that point you are clipping the amp and distortion will veer its ugly head in.  so if you bring in the lcd-2, which audeze recommends 1.5w @ 70ohms, the lyr will barely be efficient enough to drive the lcd-2 at half volume, giving it maybe 1 - 2w@70ohms, since schiit claims 4w@50ohms.  Remember that the wattage a company claims is at full volume on hi-gain.  You can thank marketing strategies for this.
  
 edit: i have both lcd-2 and he-500 running of a lyr-2 with listening position on the lyr-2 in between 10-12 o'clock.  10 for mellow listening sessions and 12 when i want to bang it out.


----------



## jodgey4

I should've clarified, that I just err on the side of the caution - I don't believe in overpowering. A properly designed dedicated amp shouldn't have clipping problems. Also, some sources aren't coming in at 2V so, so overhead fixes that problem.


----------



## chillaxing

jodgey4 said:


> I should've clarified, that I just err on the side of the caution - I don't believe in overpowering. A properly designed dedicated amp shouldn't have clipping problems. Also, some sources aren't coming in at 2V so, so overhead fixes that problem.


 
  
  
 I know what you meant brotha.  I also didn't mean overpowering. what I believe in, is headroom.  and headroom does fix the problem with sources not coming in at 2v.  You got understand that every amps clips when pushed to its limits.  I come from car audio and I've smoked amps that were supposedly well made from good reputable companies.  
  
 Thats why I had such a hard time choosing my amp for the lcd and he-500.  I didn't want to underpower them.  Right now i'm thinking of selling the lyr and picking up the mini-x or a vintage receiver.
  
 And bass is the first thing that is affected when underpowering a driver.  Thats why bass difference is so noticeable when you feed your driver enough power.


----------



## madwolfa

chillaxing said:


> so if you bring in the lcd-2, which audeze recommends 1.5w @ 70ohms, the lyr will barely be efficient enough to drive the lcd-2 at half volume, giving it maybe 1 - 2w@70ohms, since schiit claims 4w@50ohms.  Remember that the wattage a company claims is at full volume on hi-gain.  You can thank marketing strategies for this.


 
  
 And this is RMS power too, not peak. So there's more headroom than that. Schiit is quite conservative in their power specs.
  
 Also, "Lyr barely enough to drive the LCD-2 at half volume"? You must be kidding. I'm using Asgard 2, which is rated much lower than that and I don't ever have to crank volume past 9 at high-gain with my LCD-2F.


----------



## chillaxing

madwolfa said:


> And this is RMS power too, not peak. So there's more headroom than that. Schiit is quite conservative in their power specs.
> 
> Also, "*Lyr barely enough to drive the LCD-2 at half volume"*? You must be kidding. I'm using Asgard 2, which is rated much lower than that and I don't ever have to crank volume past 9 at high-gain with my LCD-2F.


 
  
 what i meant is that, at half volume, I know that amp isn't clipping and no distortion is introduced.  with my lcd2 non-f, volume is at 12 o'clock, and the he500 is at 1 o'clock.  
  
  
 It might be RMS thats posted on Schiits web site, i dont know.  what I do know, it clearly says MAXIMUM OUTPUT @ said ohms.  Which means in order to see that power, you will need to have the amp at full volume on high gain.  Which in turn, your probably clipping the amp.  So until someone with the right equipment measures all these headphone amps and post the measurements.  i'll stand by what i said. Having headroom is a good thing.  Buy the amp that has the most power that you can afford.  Cause the higher you have that volume knob, the more likely you are clipping the amps and introducing distortion.  I have no loyalty to any company. I'm loyal to my wallet.  I buy whats the best bang for my buck.  
  
 This might also be the reason why drivers are failing.  people are underpowering their headsets, and to compensate the lack of power, they have the volume knob up all the way.  Clipping and distortion is bad for drivers of any type.
  
 also, the lcd-2f is more sensitive so it doesn't require as much power than the non-f
  
 I'm no expert, so take everything i said with a grain of salt


----------



## madwolfa

chillaxing said:


> This might also be the reason why drivers are failing.  people are underpowering their headsets, and to compensate the lack of power, they have the volume knob up all the way.  Clipping and distortion is bad for drivers of any type.


 
  
 To drive any modern, even moderately powered headphone amp into distortion, your ears would bleed and fall off first before you notice it.


----------



## chillaxing

madwolfa said:


> To drive any modern, even moderately powered headphone amp into distortion, *your ears would bleed and fall off first before you notice it*.


 
  
  






  this is true, but we don't know what peoples listening habits are.  My usual levels are around 90-120 db depending on my mood.


----------



## madwolfa

chillaxing said:


> this is true, but we don't know what peoples listening habits are.  My usual levels are around 90-120 db depending on my mood.


 
  
 Something tells me that people with such listening habits don't have much hearing left anyway. This is far above safe threshold.


----------



## marcan

Hmm difficult to precisely measure but 120dB is very loud. And it comes from someone who like it loud sometimes but 120 dB...


----------



## chillaxing

marcan said:


> Hmm difficult to precisely measure but 120dB is very loud. And it comes from someone who like it loud sometimes but 120 dB...


 
  
  
 give you a rough gestemate.  A rock concert gets up to about 120db.  I get up there while in my car and in my headsets, but i dont' stay up there for to long, usually 2-3 songs.  i would say average listening levels for me is about 100db or so.
  
 I was just at a AC/DC concert this pass weekend and i can honestly say that it was pass 120db, its was probably in the 130db range.  my ears were ringing for about 2 days after.  Who ever was the sound engineer for that concert is a dumbass, cause it was to a point where you couldn't even hear the music for some songs.


----------



## x RELIC x

chillaxing said:


> give you a rough gestemate.  A rock concert gets up to about 120db.  I get up there while in my car and in my headsets, but i dont' stay up there for to long, usually 2-3 songs.  i would say average listening levels for me is about 100db or so.
> 
> I was just at a AC/DC concert this pass weekend and i can honestly say that it was pass 120db, its was probably in the 130db range.  my ears were ringing for about 2 days after.  Who ever was the sound engineer for that concert is a dumbass, cause it was to a point where you couldn't even hear the music for some songs.




That's why, ironically, ear plugs are highly recommended when wanting to enjoy a live concert. Serious permanent damage can occur very quickly at those levels, and may not show up right away. 

http://www.noisehelp.com/noise-dose.html


Maximum Recommended Noise Dose
Exposure Levels
Noise Level (dBA) Maximum Exposure Time per 24 Hours
85 8 hours
88 4 hours
91 2 hours
94 1 hour
97 30 minutes
100 15 minutes
103 7.5 minutes
106 3.7 minutes
109 112 seconds
112 56 seconds
115 28 seconds
118 14 seconds
121 7 seconds
124 3 seconds
127 1 second
130–140 less than 1 second
140 NO EXPOSURE


----------



## CanadianMaestro

x relic x said:


> That's why, ironically, ear plugs are highly recommended when wanting to enjoy a live concert. Serious permanent damage can occur very quickly at those levels, and may not show up right away.
> 
> http://www.noisehelp.com/noise-dose.html
> 
> ...


 

 These measurements were done on a hapless human or animal?


----------



## madwolfa

x relic x said:


> That's why, ironically, ear plugs are highly recommended when wanting to enjoy a live concert. Serious permanent damage can occur very quickly at those levels, and may not show up right away.


 
  
 I went to Mastodon's live show last year and tried using some quality ear plugs. It really sucked and I threw them away after half an hour.


----------



## x RELIC x

canadianmaestro said:


> These measurements were done on a hapless human or animal?  :eek:




They aren't too far off from most recommended listening exposure times in a 24 hour period. Keep in mind they mention damage _may occur_, and may not be immediately perceivable, at the lower levels.

They key is that this is a play now pay later kind of scenario. Personally I like to keep it on the safe side. Anyone listening at 120db (which is twice as loud as 110db due to the logarithmic nature of the decibel scale) should feel very uncomfortable. If not there is already hearing damage.


----------



## chillaxing

madwolfa said:


> I went to Mastodon's live show last year and tried using some quality ear plugs. It really sucked and I threw them away after half an hour.


 
  
  
 yup, been to many concerts and show, across many genres.  Loudness was never a problem, till this last show.  Ask all my friends if they thought the same, and consensus was it was way to loud.


----------



## x RELIC x

Back to the amps for the LCD-2, the overall point is that many of these specs for peak power output are mostly for headroom on transient notes and amplifier clipping. If pushing the amp to run continuously at max spec you won't be in Head Fi very long.


----------



## tomb

A few things:
  
 1. Gain and power are two different things.  It matters little where your volume knob is positioned relative to power.  Volume travel is not an indication of power - at all.  It's totally a function of the gain setting on the amp and the efficiency of your headphones.  An amp could be rated for 1W at 32 ohms and produce that power at 1/4 volume setting with one pair of  headphones and at 1/2 volume setting with another.  Impedance of the load plays a factor, but only in the respect that the amplifier will tend to produce different power levels at different load impedances.  This is because every amplifier design makes choices (compromises?) between how it amplifies voltage vs. current.  The load impedance dictates how much of each is needed - voltage vs current.  The amp may be very good at supplying one, but maybe not another.
  
 2. Tests for power are not done at high gain and technically, they are not done at max volume setting, either.  Although the volume control is often shorted out anyway.  Power is tested with a load at a specified resistance.  Then _usually_, the source signal is varied (increased) until the signal output from the amplifier begins to clip.  It is very easy to see when the signal sine wave begins to clip on an oscilloscope.  Sometimes, the measurement is set to register 1% THD (or some other THD value) as the threshold to define the clipping point.  Voltage is then measured across the load and as referenced in an earlier post, P = (V^2)/R.  This also assumes the metering is registering RMS voltage for that "V."
  
 3. The interesting thing about #2 above is that this is often done at one frequency - typically 1K, unless the power is quoted as from 20 - 20Khz.  If the frequency range is not specified, you can bet it was done at 1K.  RMS power from 20-20Khz is the most stringent specification, because that shows the mfr has actually tested the entire range of frequencies.  Important: if this is not specified, the amp may produce less power at the lower frequencies (or at some other frequency) than at 1K.  It's a reason for the common understanding that lack of power may be noticed in the bass frequencies, first.  Good amps should be ruler flat in their frequency response, but that response may be measured using a different method than max power at different frequencies, although they should be closely similar.
  
 It is still very important to make measurements and if not useful as absolutes, they are certainly worthy to use for comparisons between products/designs.  Realize however, that the playing field is not always the same.  The measurements are also not all-encompassing.  Like a lot of things, they paint a good picture, but not the whole picture.  Your ears determine the final ruling.
  
 EDIT: I typed too much.  Maybe I'll repeat some of what I deleted at another time.


----------



## jodgey4

tomb said:


> 3. The interesting thing about #2 above is that this is often done at one frequency - typically 1K, unless the power is quoted as from 20 - 20Khz.  If the frequency range is not specified, you can bet it was done at 1K.  RMS power from 20-20Khz is the most stringent specification, because that shows the mfr has actually tested the entire range of frequencies.  Important: if this is not specified, the amp may produce less power at the lower frequencies (or at some other frequency) than at 1K.  It's a reason for the common understanding that lack of power may be noticed in the bass frequencies, first.  Good amps should be ruler flat in their frequency response, but that response may be measured using a different method than max power at different frequencies, although they should be closely similar.


 
 Can you show an example of an amp that isn't ruler flat at all volumes?


----------



## tomb

jodgey4 said:


> tomb said:
> 
> 
> > 3. The interesting thing about #2 above is that this is often done at one frequency - typically 1K, unless the power is quoted as from 20 - 20Khz.  If the frequency range is not specified, you can bet it was done at 1K.  RMS power from 20-20Khz is the most stringent specification, because that shows the mfr has actually tested the entire range of frequencies.  Important: if this is not specified, the amp may produce less power at the lower frequencies (or at some other frequency) than at 1K.  It's a reason for the common understanding that lack of power may be noticed in the bass frequencies, first.  Good amps should be ruler flat in their frequency response, but that response may be measured using a different method than max power at different frequencies, although they should be closely similar.
> ...


 
  
 I thought that might confuse some folks and debated leaving it in my post.  Frequency response is often conducted at a given power level, not the max power level.  Many amps can produce more power _before they clip_ at 1K than they can at 20 Hz.  It doesn't mean they don't have a ruler-flat frequency response at lower power outputs.  Would you accept that distortion can vary according to frequency, or is that contrary to your beliefs, too? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Maybe this quote from Wikipedia can help:
  
 Quote (Wikipedia article on Audio Power): 





> In its 1974 Amplifier Rule meant to combat the unrealistic power claims made by many hi-fi amplifier manufacturers, theFederal Trade Commission prescribed continuous power measurements performed with sine wave signals on advertising and specification citations for amplifiers sold in the US. Typically, an amplifier's power specifications are calculated by measuring its RMS output voltage, with a continuous sine wave signal, at the onset of clipping—defined arbitrarily as a stated percentage of total harmonic distortion (THD)—into specified load resistances. Typical loads used are 8 and 4 ohms per channel; many amplifiers used in professional audio are also specified at 2 ohms.
> 
> *Continuous power measurements do not actually describe the highly varied signals found in audio equipment* (which could vary from high crest factor instrument recordings down to 0 dB crest factor square waves) but are widely regarded as a reasonable way of describing an amplifier's maximum output capability. *Most amplifiers are capable of higher power if driven further into clipping, with corresponding increases in harmonic distortion*, so the continuous power output rating cited for an amplifier should be understood to be the maximum power (at or below a particular acceptable amount of harmonic distortion) in the frequency band of interest. For audio equipment, this is nearly always the nominal frequency range of human hearing, 20 Hz to 20 kHz.


 
  
 Again, my initial post clearly stated, "... they should be closely similar."


----------



## jodgey4

> Originally Posted by *tomb* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Would you accept that distortion can vary according to frequency, or is that contrary to your beliefs, too?


 
 Lol, I think you're quite confused about what I've said on these forums. Also, amps clipping at lower frequencies sooner than higher ones? Clipping just has to do with max output, frequency should have no bearing on that. I'm assuming you're saying that once you take in to account that most recorded tracks have stronger low frequencies stored, this is the case? You're not being very clear, and this information is quite misleading.


----------



## chillaxing

Is there a is way to put a o-scope on a headphone amp and measure?
  
 I'm a man of actual facts and its killing me not knowing if what i claim, is right.


----------



## tomb

jodgey4 said:


> Power is V^/R, independent of frequency. Bass shouldn't be any different.


 
 Just to be clear, this glosses over a huge issue in many portable amps, portable players, and phones.  Bass can vary - quite a bit.
  
 Less sophisticated amplifiers often have DC blocking capacitors in the signal path.  Combined with the headphone resistance, these form an RC circuit.  The RC circuit creates a high-bandpass filter that can limit low-frequency response.  A -3dB characteristic of the RC circuit could very easily impinge on the lower part of the 20-20Khz audio band.  So, practically speaking, the amplifier's power is going to be severely limited, depending on the load.
  
 Let's just take a common amplifier - a very famous one - typically used for Sennheiser HD580/600/650 headphones, the Bottlehead Crack.  It uses 100uf output coupling capacitors.  If we look at a chart, we can see the results of this with headphones other than 300 ohm Sennheisers:

  
 The above chart is generated using the governing equation for an RC circuit with different load impedances.  The "C" in the RC circuit equation forms the basis of the chart and is 100uf, the value used for the output coupling capacitors in the Bottlehead Crack.  Note the different load impedances, especially for 16 (IEMs), 32 (Grados and most portable headphones), and 60 ohms (AKG K701 family).  The -3dB point is bad enough, but note that the -1dB point is all the way up into the high-bass for the lowest impedances.
  
 This is not a criticism of the Bottlehead Crack.  It's simply to point out that there _could be_ a lot more going on with an amplifier than just quoting frequency response or power level at a given impedance.
  
 Yeah, many people know better these days than to pair an OTL amplifier with a low impedance headphone.  Yet, maybe they don't know exactly why other than some output impedance vs. load impedance rule-of-thumb that they've heard about.


----------



## jodgey4

@chillaxing Yeah, you can absolutely do that. Take an old unused cheap 3.5mm cable, chop off one end, put the scope on one or both channels with resistors in series to simulate a load... and go to town. Take a track, analyze the frequencies recorded, and use that to run single test tones through that are easy to evaluate. Here's a recording I ripped off of YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQYV_v2Fo1U) of Steve Jordan and Bernie Worrell (240p)... you can see the energy laid out over a 15 second sample or so near the height of the song.


----------



## tomb

jodgey4 said:


> > Originally Posted by *tomb* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> >
> > Would you accept that distortion can vary according to frequency, or is that contrary to your beliefs, too?
> 
> ...


 
 OK - see my previous post if I'm confused about what you said. No offense.


----------



## jodgey4

tomb said:


> >['Me: power = V^2/R, no frequency involved']
> 
> Just to be clear, this glosses over a huge issue in many portable amps, portable players, and phones.  Bass can vary - quite a bit.
> 
> ...


 
 Still doesn't address how bass can change with power, and you cherry-picked an amp with some of the most unique properties on the market - not dismissing that most people don't know much about amps, but I think we're either talking past each other or coming from a different understood premise.


----------



## tomb

jodgey4 said:


> tomb said:
> 
> 
> > >['Me: power = V^2/R, no frequency involved']
> ...


 
 The Bottlehead Crack has no different properties than most any other OTL amp, which are relatively common.
  
 But you're right - we are obviously talking past each other and this is pointless to continue.


----------



## Thenewguy007

Is the Violectric V200 still one of the better amps for the LCD-2?
 What gains settings are recommended for it?


----------



## Kevinspeed

The first amp I got for my LCD was the Bruson Soloist.  It did a great job for the money.  It is a good place to start for sure.  I would like to hear their amp/dac combo.  My first DAC was an arcam rDac I moved to an Ayre QB9 pretty quickly and that was a good combo.


----------



## Kevinspeed

The Cavalli LAu does magic with the LCD2


----------



## Lohb

thenewguy007 said:


> Is the Violectric V200 still one of the better amps for the LCD-2?
> What gains settings are recommended for it?


 

 For the money, a tricked out Gustard H10 may be a better deal and you can roll the savings into a much better MULTIBIT  DAC.
 H10 upgrades - opamps/emi shielding.
 http://www.hillas.com/Categories/3M-EMI-Absorber/3M-EMI-Absorber-AB5100S-210-mm-x-297-mm.html
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/735828/gustard-h10-high-current-discrete-class-a-output-stage-headphone-amplifier/795#post_11342558
 Here is the mother of all opamp rolls on it but 797BRZ seems to be a winner for dynamics/transparency..
 Genclaymore
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/735828/gustard-h10-high-current-discrete-class-a-output-stage-headphone-amplifier/3300#post_11952188
 stumc
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/735828/gustard-h10-high-current-discrete-class-a-output-stage-headphone-amplifier/2985#post_11829037
 Some say ditch the crappy mains cable and buy what you can afford....


----------



## MattTCG

Anyone got the mjolnir 2 with the lcd2.2?


----------



## Outpost31

Hey guys/gals, been trawling through the thread and feel so overwhelmed that I felt the need to post.
Recently purchased myself a pair of the lcd-2 fazor, coming from the fidelity X2, my only dac/amp I have is the dac magic xs and a yamaha rx-v667 a receiver. Now I'm looking at getting something better to pair with the headphones but I don't want to spend too much. Not sure where to start. I like a warm sound. Can spend up to about 500. A couple I've looked at is the O2/dac and the audio-gd nfb15.
Any help would be awesome. Cheers, Jimbo


----------



## madwolfa

outpost31 said:


> Hey guys/gals, been trawling through the thread and feel so overwhelmed that I felt the need to post.
> Recently purchased myself a pair of the lcd-2 fazor, coming from the fidelity X2, my only dac/amp I have is the dac magic xs and a yamaha rx-v667 a receiver. Now I'm looking at getting something better to pair with the headphones but I don't want to spend too much. Not sure where to start. I like a warm sound. Can spend up to about 500. A couple I've looked at is the O2/dac and the audio-gd nfb15.
> Any help would be awesome. Cheers, Jimbo


 
  
 Schiit Magni 2U/Modi 2U combination would set you back only $300 and work just fine with your Audeze. I personally use Asgard 2 with mine (it has slightly less power) and it plays beautifully. You don't need a ton of power for LCD-2F.


----------



## Outpost31

madwolfa said:


> Schiit Magni 2U/Modi 2U combination would set you back just $300 and work just fine for your Audeze. I personally use Asgard 2 with mine (it has slightly less power) and it works beautifully. You don't need a ton of power for LCD-2F.




Thanks for the quick reply, this was something else I was also looking at. The combo looks sleek and sexy too.


----------



## chillaxing

madwolfa said:


> Schiit Magni 2U/Modi 2U combination would set you back only $300 and work just fine with your Audeze. I personally use Asgard 2 with mine (it has slightly less power) and it plays beautifully. You don't need a ton of power for LCD-2F.


 
  
  
 You don't need it, but sure is good when you have more on tap.  I just feel that the more you power these things, the more dynamic they get.   Thats why i'm going speaker taps, and the lyr2 is going up on the chopping block.


----------



## Outpost31

I see a lot of people recommend the Lyr, what would be a good dac to match? I'm aware of the bifrost but wondered if anything cheaper that's just as good?


----------



## chillaxing

outpost31 said:


> I see a lot of people recommend the Lyr, what would be a good dac to match? I'm aware of the bifrost but wondered if anything cheaper that's just as good?


 
  
  
 if i didn't have my e18, i would have probably gone with a modi2 uber or odac


----------



## LancerFIN

Entry level amp for LCD2 go for NFB15 and use high gain.


----------



## Outpost31

So I'm down to either the lyr(2ndhand)/modi-uber or the audio-gd nfb15. Both will work out at about the same price for me (in the uk)


----------



## jodgey4

I'm very partial to Audio-GD but I'd go with the Schiit stack in this instance in a heartbeat .


----------



## BobMonkhouse

I still need a couple of more months to buy a pair of LCD-2 but reading a lot about amps for those and this thread. I like how they sound a lot with ODAC/O2, so I consider the new JDS Labs Element is a good more powerful option.


----------



## a-widodo

Anyone heard LCD-2 rev 2 (pre fazor) driven directly from chord hugo? What do you guys think?


----------



## jodgey4

I think I heard somewhere that it sounded a bit thin and underpowered?


----------



## nicholars

Chord products seem very overpriced to me.


----------



## madwolfa

nicholars said:


> Chord products seem very overpriced to me.


 
  
 They scream overpriced and tacky to me.


----------



## BassDigger

nicholars said:


> So with a medium power amplifier, would the fazor actually work out having more bass and sounding better than the original 2.2 non fazor?
> 
> For example 500mw powering the fazor vs 500mw powering the non fazor....
> 
> ...


 
  
 I'm sorry, I'm not trying drag up any finished debates, I've just been catching up and wanted to add my two penneth:
  
 To say less power equals less bass, means extremes; it means there's far too little power available. As I understand it, bass is the most power hungry part of the musical spectrum. But maybe that's more for loudspeakers, rather than headphones.
  
 But conversely, more power can equal less (perceived) bass. As generally speaking, the function of power is control of the driver (unless the amp is totally underpowered); the extra control means that the driver is moving less, therefore producing less sound (or noise). This can give the effect of reducing the warmth and fullness at some frequencies. But, as others have mentioned, the payback is an improvement in definition, dynamics, punch and speed. I know this because this is exactly what I experienced when changing from a 170mW A1 clone to the 2W+ Gustard H10 (V200 clone). The A1 had plenty of volume and, in isolation, didn't seem to lack power. But the H10's bass is just so much tighter and tauter. 
  
 Referring to the original question: My point is that there's likely to be little difference between the 2.2 and fazor, due to the amp's power. And if there are differences, they may not manifest themselves in the way that you anticipate. So, I wouldn't worry about it. Just follow Jodgey's advice.


----------



## Asym9

matttcg said:


> Anyone got the mjolnir 2 with the lcd2.2?


 
 I made my way to this thread by wondering the exact same thing, since I have a pair of LCD2.2 on the way.


----------



## theblueprint

asym9 said:


> I made my way to this thread by wondering the exact same thing, since I have a pair of LCD2.2 on the way.




The original Mjolnir was a match made in heaven with the LCD2.2. I'm not sure how the new tubes fare with it, but if you LISST it, it should be as good.


----------



## BobMonkhouse

I'll buy a pair of LCD-2 in December. My current gear is portable, and I don't have a desktop amp/DAC. I can't make up my mind which amp to buy for the LCD-2. I've heard it fed by ODAC/O2, and I liked this combo a lot. I've narrowed down the candidates to a few models, so I'm looking for opinions which of the following amps I should buy - Meier Corda Jazz, Audio-GD NFB-15 or 11, JDS Labs Element, Gustard H10? I can buy a separate DAC, if necessary. A good match for Senn HD6x0 will be a bonus.


----------



## chillaxing

bobmonkhouse said:


> I'll buy a pair of LCD-2 in December. My current gear is portable, and I don't have a desktop amp/DAC. I can't make up my mind which amp to buy for the LCD-2. I've heard it fed by ODAC/O2, and I liked this combo a lot. I've narrowed down the candidates to a few models, so I'm looking for opinions which of the following amps I should buy - Meier Corda Jazz, Audio-GD NFB-15 or 11, JDS Labs Element, Gustard H10? I can buy a separate DAC, if necessary. A good match for Senn HD6x0 will be a bonus.


 
  
  
 When I first got the lcd, I thought that I needed a lot of power, so i got an lyr2.  What I've come to find out is, a lot of amps can drive the lcd-2 with good results.  A combo that I like a lot right now is the iFi iCan Micro stacked with iFi iDSD Micro


----------



## kchapdaily

Hey guys, just picked up an LCD-2 after my HIFIMAN HE-4 earcup mount broke. I have been very impressed so far. Been listening to a lot of traditional irish tunes. I am running a Burson HA-160 from a Bifrost (no uber, no multibit) over optical from my macbook.
  
 I have been thinking about upgrading my amp and dac to something a bit higher end, maybe balanced. I want to move my current set up to my desk at work.
  
 Any recommendations for traditional irish, classical, and maybe some metal every once in a while? I was thinking maybe mjolnir + gungnir. Or should i just get the multibit upgrade for the bifrost and be happy? I know multibit is new, i haven't seen a lot of opinions yet.
  
 EDIT: If possible i am interested in driving small passive desktop speakers/studio monitors.


----------



## jodgey4

I've got an Audio-GD NFB-28 DAC/amp... fully balanced, ES9018 chips, lots of power. The 27H is awesome as well, or if you can spring the extra dough, the Master 11 is endgame (R2R instead of Delta-Sigma). There's also the NFB-1 DAC and amp if you like separate units (D-S).


----------



## kchapdaily

Thank you for the recommendations, around 2K$ is pretty much what i am looking for. I will read up on these. The master 11 certainly seems like it would fit the bill, I generally lean towards separate amp and dac. Either way i have some research to do. R2R DAC would be nice.


----------



## jodgey4

Sadly there's no R2R DAC from A-GD. And with the reviews of the Gumby... I'd probably just go for the Schiit, as much as I love Kingwa and his crew. Violectric might also have options?


----------



## munce31

jodgey4 said:


> Sadly there's no R2R DAC from A-GD. And with the reviews of the Gumby... I'd probably just go for the Schiit, as much as I love Kingwa and his crew. Violectric might also have options?




Aren't the pcm1704uk based Dacs by Audio-GD r2-r?


----------



## x RELIC x

jodgey4 said:


> *Sadly there's no R2R DAC from A-GD*. And with the reviews of the Gumby... I'd probably just go for the Schiit, as much as I love Kingwa and his crew. Violectric might also have options?




DAC-19 (10th anniversary) is R-2R. I have one and it's great but no balanced. Master 7 is also great as a stand alone, real endgame for sure, but costs $2225 vs the DAC-19 $800.


----------



## marcan

I might be interested in the DAC-19 (10th anniversary) but I red somewhere that it was a bit weak in the bass department.
 Any comment about it?


----------



## x RELIC x

marcan said:


> I might be interested in the DAC-19 (10th anniversary) but I red somewhere that it was a bit weak in the bass department.
> Any comment about it?




Um, not weak in the bass. Not at all.


----------



## marcan

x relic x said:


> Um, not weak in the bass. Not at all.


 
 Thx for your answer. And how does it sound with the LCD2rev2?


----------



## x RELIC x

marcan said:


> Thx for your answer. And how does it sound with the LCD2rev2?




Really good IMO. Actually, it can get a bit lush for my tastes with the LCD-2 but not in any way bad. The thing about the DAC-19 is it has loads of detail and sounds very natural.

Of course a good transparent amp in the mix helps.


----------



## marcan

x relic x said:


> Really good IMO. Actually, it can get a bit lush for my tastes with the LCD-2 but not in any way bad. The thing about the DAC-19 is it has loads of detail and sounds very natural.
> 
> Of course a good transparent amp in the mix helps.


 
 I have a Bryston BHA-1. Very transparent.


----------



## CanadianMaestro

marcan said:


> I have a Bryston BHA-1. Very transparent.


 

 +1


----------



## Rob80b

canadianmaestro said:


> +1


 

 #3


----------



## marcan

rob80b said:


> #3


 
 Combo made in heaven.


----------



## Lohb

Anyone running the LCD-2s straight off the new Chord MOJO....synergy ?


----------



## x RELIC x

lohb said:


> Anyone running the LCD-2s straight off the new Chord MOJO....synergy ?




Frankly, it's awesome.

I have a blurb about the pairing in my review. Hope this helps.


----------



## Lohb

x relic x said:


> Frankly, it's awesome.
> 
> I have a blurb about the pairing in my review. Hope this helps.


 

 Nice...and technically it has no amp section like normal dac/amps from following the thread.


----------



## Arnotts

lohb said:


> Nice...and technically it has no amp section like normal dac/amps from following the thread.


 
 I haven't read the thread (not really interested in it), but IIRC if it's got a headphone output, it's got a headphone amp in it. It might not have separate circuitry for the headphone output and the line output, but everything with a headphone output has a headphone amp.


----------



## jodgey4

Unless it's just a high level DAC output with maybe a buffer?


----------



## x RELIC x

jodgey4 said:


> Unless it's just a high level DAC output with maybe a buffer?




This. It's a very simple active stage. Rob Watts has posted more than a few times on the lack of an amp stage in his Hugo design, and the same analogue out is in the Mojo.

If you want I can find the link to his long, technical post on the matter.


Edit: here it is.........


http://www.head-fi.org/t/702787/chord-hugo/1830#post_10459450

Of note is his comments in item # 3 that he lists. In it he says:




> ............
> 
> 
> _3. The lack of DAC RF OP noise means that the analogue section can be made radically simpler as the analogue filter requirements are smaller. Now in analogue terms, making it simpler, with everything else being constant, gives more transparency. You really can hear every solder joint, every passive component, and every active stage. Now Hugo has a single active stage - a very high performance op-amp with a discrete op-stage as a hybrid with a single global feedback path. This arrangement means that you have a single active stage, two resistors and two capacitors in the direct signal path - and that is it.* Note: there is no headphone drive. Normal high performance DAC's have 3 op-amp stages, followed by a separate headphone amp. *So to conclude - Hugo's analogue path is not a simple couple of op-amps chucked together, it is fundamentally simpler than all other headphone amp solutions._
> ...




By the way, the output from the Mojo was measured as 4.3 V.


----------



## marcan

So if I understand it correctly, the headphones are not directly connected to the DAC but the path is shorter than a traditional DAC/amp.


----------



## wildwood88

Hey guys, received an used headphone for lcd2.2 non fazor and pair with lyr. May I ask what kind of tube I should change instead of using the stock tube? Some people suggest amperex orange globe, how is it? And the last question is how loud is consider loud? I control in around 10-11 clock, but if goes to those rock and metal song, I sometimes will turn to 12 clock, is that normal? Or it will actually too loud hurt my ears?


----------



## oAmadeuso

wildwood88 said:


> Hey guys, received an used headphone for lcd2.2 non fazor and pair with lyr. May I ask what kind of tube I should change instead of using the stock tube? Some people suggest amperex orange globe, how is it? And the last question is how loud is consider loud? I control in around 10-11 clock, but if goes to those rock and metal song, I sometimes will turn to 12 clock, is that normal? Or it will actually too loud hurt my ears?


 
 I'm loving the miniwatts personally but it's all about the type of sound you want to get.
 The stock tubes sound pretty medicore once you upgrade in my opinion.
 Have a look at the Lyr tube rollers thread.
http://www.head-fi.org/t/673709/schiit-lyr-tube-rollers


----------



## Orky261

New owner of an LCD 2 here, I don't know which version but it has improved cable snapping mechanism. I'm using D1050 + Valhalla 2 to drive these and I've been seeing some sayings that Valhalla 2 is not really a good pairing. I'm using the low gain on Valhalla 2 and so far it sounds really good, I know there must better amps out there but for now this is what I can afford. I don't know whether I made the right decision or not, any opinions?


----------



## jodgey4

The Vahalla 2 is an OTL amp, which usually has a hard time pushing enough current into lower impedance cans. The Asgard 2 would be better... or something like the Audio-GD NFB-3AMP (both are smooth Class A, fully discrete SS amps).


----------



## echineko

orky261 said:


> New owner of an LCD 2 here, I don't know which version but it has improved cable snapping mechanism. I'm using D1050 + Valhalla 2 to drive these and I've been seeing some sayings that Valhalla 2 is not really a good pairing. I'm using the low gain on Valhalla 2 and so far it sounds really good, I know there must better amps out there but for now this is what I can afford. I don't know whether I made the right decision or not, any opinions?


 
 Previously I was using the Lyr 2 with my LCD-2 with great results. Not sure if you're into the tube signature, or planning to move away to a pure solid state setup, but for my money, the Lyr 2 is a great pairing. Only got rid of mine because I'm moving up to the Mjolnir 2.


----------



## Orky261

I'm using low gain at 11 o'clock mark and it's already loud enough for me. I don't plan on blasting my ears to oblivion lol.
  
 Yea I was trying to get Lyr 2 but Schiit just entered my country in a special event, they only brough Magni2 +Modi2, Valhalla2 + Bifrost2, Yggdrasil and Ragnarok, when I asked about Lyr 2 the stand ownder said it would probably take 3 months from now to get it and at that time Valhalla 2 was like $300. Well I would probably wait a couple of months and sell it in order to step up.


----------



## echineko

orky261 said:


> Yea I was trying to get Lyr 2 but Schiit just entered my country in a special event, they only brough Magni2 +Modi2, Valhalla2 + Bifrost2, Yggdrasil and Ragnarok



Don't even know if there's official distributors here, just got it myself directly from Schiit Audio. Bisa diatur, pak


----------



## Orky261

@echineko Forwarder bro? I got it from a Singaporean uncle, I wish I can just get Lyr 2 straight away but can't I really do hope they will enter Indonesia officially though, we really need more desktop dac/amp brands here. Too much focus on portable, desktop setup gets no love at all.


----------



## HiGHFLYiN9

orky261 said:


> New owner of an LCD 2 here, I don't know which version but it has improved cable snapping mechanism. I'm using D1050 + Valhalla 2 to drive these and I've been seeing some sayings that Valhalla 2 is not really a good pairing. I'm using the low gain on Valhalla 2 and so far it sounds really good, I know there must better amps out there but for now this is what I can afford. I don't know whether I made the right decision or not, any opinions?


 
 You can tell it's a Fazor by lightly running your finger over where the driver faces your ear. If you feel ridges, that's the Fazor model. 
  

  
  
 Regarding amps that mate well with the LCD-2, I enjoy mine the most with my Bottlehead S.E.X. and a silver clad copper cable. It's a slightly warm and full sound with very ample bass. I prefer the silver clad cable to an all copper cable to bump up the detail a bit, as the LCD-2 is warm/dark on its own.


----------



## aqsw

Audio Nirvana

Solid state or tube.


----------



## Orky261

Well for now I gotta contend with my DAC AMP combo but I just changed out to tube 6922, woahhhh, the sound signature fits me so well but shamefully one of the tube has crackling and popping. I gotta return it but the shop opens on Thursday because of national holiday and I can't go back there now because it's already too late.


----------



## sludgeogre

highflyin9 said:


> Regarding amps that mate well with the LCD-2, I enjoy mine the most with my Bottlehead S.E.X. and a silver clad copper cable. It's a slightly warm and full sound with very ample bass. I prefer the silver clad cable to an all copper cable to bump up the detail a bit, as the LCD-2 is warm/dark on its own.


 
 I use a silver clad copper cable as well and I totally agree. It unlocks that last level of detail with the LCD-2. It's almost like a different headphone with a great cable. It's the only cable purchase I've ever made that made a difference, and it was a major one.


----------



## HiGHFLYiN9

sludgeogre said:


> I use a silver clad copper cable as well and I totally agree. It unlocks that last level of detail with the LCD-2. It's almost like a different headphone with a great cable. It's the only cable purchase I've ever made that made a difference, and it was a major one.


 
 You have a very good ear my friend. I've built a number of cables to try with the LCD-2... UP-OCC in polyvinyl chloride (PVC), copper in polyethylene (PE) and ultra-pure copper in Teflon, both solid and stranded, and low-strand count silver clad copper in teflon/PTFE. The silver clad had the best synergy in my ears for the LCD-2. The LCD-X and LCD-XC are different animals though, I preferred the UP-OCC cables I made for those, as they are already on the crisp/neutral side of the spectrum.


----------



## Orky261

Decided on getting a Burson Soloist when I go for a vacation in Aussie, I really like HA160's sound on my LCD-2 but something is still lacking. Although that was the case, I read that Soloist pretty much mends those problem and even improve on it.


----------



## catspaw

I tested the Burston soloist (4W version) and the asgard 1 for LCD 2 fazors and the sound on both was rather similar.
 I will say thou that I was running both amps near max volume to loud listening, so Going for something like Lyr seems to make sense.


----------



## HPiper

catspaw said:


> I tested the Burston soloist (4W version) and the asgard 1 for LCD 2 fazors and the sound on both was rather similar.
> I will say thou that I was running both amps near max volume to loud listening, so Going for something like Lyr seems to make sense.


 
 Second that, I am using my LCD2's with the older Lyr and it sounds fantastic. I DID upgrade the tubes to a matched pair of Orange Globe's, though to be honest,  it sounded pretty darn good with the stock tubes too but the OG tubes cleaned up the midrange/treble considerably.


----------



## cuiter23

catspaw said:


> I tested the Burston soloist (4W version) and the asgard 1 for LCD 2 fazors and the sound on both was rather similar.
> I will say thou that I was running both amps near max volume to loud listening, so Going for something like Lyr seems to make sense.


 
  
 Max volume? I listened to the LCD-2 on my SL Mk2 (only 2.5W vs. 4W). And I didn't need to go past 10 o'clock on high gain to get a loud listening volume.


----------



## catspaw

cuiter23 said:


> Max volume? I listened to the LCD-2 on my SL Mk2 (only 2.5W vs. 4W). And I didn't need to go past 10 o'clock on high gain to get a loud listening volume.


 
 My source was not the best, that might be it....


----------



## NeoWilson

https://www.massdrop.com/buy/aune-x1s-32bit-384-dsd128-mini-dac
  
 Is the Aune good enough for LCD-2 guys? Budget is 200-400usd
  
 THanks


----------



## cuiter23

neowilson said:


> https://www.massdrop.com/buy/aune-x1s-32bit-384-dsd128-mini-dac
> 
> Is the Aune good enough for LCD-2 guys? Budget is 200-400usd
> 
> THanks


 
  
  
 Shows quite dismal performance under heavy loads. Then again, power doesn't mean anything. The LCD-2 definitely requires some power for it to shine.


----------



## NeoWilson

cuiter23 said:


> Shows quite dismal performance under heavy loads. Then again, power doesn't mean anything. The LCD-2 definitely requires some power for it to shine.


 
 What exactly does heavy loads mean? Any other recommendation around 200-400$ price range, not something too hard to buy since I live down under


----------



## chillaxing

neowilson said:


> What exactly does heavy loads mean? Any other recommendation around 200-400$ price range, not something too hard to buy since I live down under


 
  
  
 these are the ones i've tried
  
 lyr 2
 iCan micro
 iDsD micro
 vintage stereo amp.
  
 All are great, but if you like a little more bass.  The iCan has a great bass boost.  Not as powerful as the others but it does a great job.


----------



## cuiter23

neowilson said:


> What exactly does heavy loads mean? Any other recommendation around 200-400$ price range, not something too hard to buy since I live down under


 
  
 High impedance (resistance).
  
 Ahh... Australia, land of beautiful Asian females (with Aussie accents ofc), Kangaroos, and most importantly, Burson Audio.


----------



## echineko

cuiter23 said:


> High impedance (resistance).
> 
> Ahh... Australia, land of beautiful Asian females (with Aussie accents ofc), Kangaroos, and most importantly, Burson Audio.


 
 Wallabies > Kangaroos, much higher cuteness/volume ratio


----------



## domho7

I just got a ican se. Can go up to +24db gain. Presently set to +12db and very happy with it. 

Sent from my LG-D855 using Tapatalk


----------



## chillaxing

Where are you guys at that your already getting the ican SE?   They haven't hit the US yet...


----------



## turbo87

New owner of LCD 2.2F headphones. Looking for a reasonable priced headphone amp. Locally I can get the Asgard 1 for Around $150 or the Burson Solo for around $600. Is there a big noticeable difference between these two? I also have an old Marantz 1060 Amp and the LCD 2.2F sounds good through the headphone amp. But looking for a dedicated headphone amp to drive the LCD 2s. Thanks.


----------



## cuiter23

turbo87 said:


> New owner of LCD 2.2F headphones. Looking for a reasonable priced headphone amp. Locally I can get the Asgard 1 for Around $150 or the Burson Solo for around $600. Is there a big noticeable difference between these two? I also have an old Marantz 1060 Amp and the LCD 2.2F sounds good through the headphone amp. But looking for a dedicated headphone amp to drive the LCD 2s. Thanks.


 
  
 Soloist SL or Soloist? 
  
 I upgraded from an Asgard 2 to an SL Mk2, there is an appreciable difference.


----------



## turbo87

Soloist. So Soloist MK2 is also a good option?


----------



## cuiter23

turbo87 said:


> Soloist. So Soloist MK2 is also a good option?


 
  
 Soloist is the Soloist SL bigger brother. Mind if I ask how you're getting the Soloist for $600? Doesn't retail for $1000?


----------



## catspaw

cuiter23 said:


> Soloist is the Soloist SL bigger brother. Mind if I ask how you're getting the Soloist for $600? Doesn't retail for $1000?


 
 I can give you a small advice but it is based on an estimation, so take it with a grain of salt:
  
 I have: Asgard 1 (1W).
 I listened to Burston soloist (4W edition, not sure what version it is).
  
 Source was: Cowon i9 directly to the burston.
  
 When I was listening to the LCD 2-Soloist this way, I would not go over 80% volume (it would be sinply put, painfull).
 When I would listen from my Asgard and my HE-400 at home from the cowon i9, I could max the amp and be within crazy but listenable levels.
  
 When I Hooked my HE-400 to the asgard one BUT with the Bifrost multibit, I would not go over 50% of the volume on the asgard (most of the time stayin at 30%).
  
 http://www.audiobot9000.com/match/audeze/lcd-2/with/schiit/asgard-2
  
 As you can see, it seems that you can get 128 db from the asgard on the Audeze, so in terms of volume it should be far more than enough.
  
 In terms of quality.... Cant say... most of these amps sound very similar to me.


----------



## cuiter23

catspaw said:


> I can give you a small advice but it is based on an estimation, so take it with a grain of salt:
> 
> I have: Asgard 1 (1W).
> I listened to Burston soloist (4W edition, not sure what version it is).
> ...


 
  
 Yea, 4W compared to 1W you will definitely not get 4 times the volume. The dB increases are relative.
  
 Also, the Bifrost is probably lower voltage (more efficient) than the cowon therefore you need less power on both amps before going into red.
  
 Scalability all depends on equipment and of course, your ears


----------



## NeoWilson

Hi guys, still no closer to buying my amp 
  
 Shall i just go Schiit stack Modi Magni non-uber. Is there a point in getting the Uber version? When would i need to use the optical ports on the DAC, and on the amp?
  
 Or Schiit Modi + Lyr 2


----------



## cuiter23

neowilson said:


> Hi guys, still no closer to buying my amp
> 
> Shall i just go Schiit stack Modi Magni non-uber. Is there a point in getting the Uber version? When would i need to use the optical ports on the DAC, and on the amp?
> 
> Or Schiit Modi + Lyr 2


 
  
 Uber is a bit more powerful. The RCA Outputs are there so you can control your active speakers (volume) with the Magni Ubers' knob.
  
 Modi + Lyr 2 is my choice.


----------



## chillaxing

neowilson said:


> Hi guys, still no closer to buying my amp
> 
> Shall i just go Schiit stack Modi Magni non-uber. Is there a point in getting the Uber version? When would i need to use the optical ports on the DAC, and on the amp?
> 
> Or Schiit Modi + Lyr 2


 
  
  
 I would just spend the little extra for the modi uber just in case you want to connect more one source to it.  
  
 If there is truly no need, just regular modi is good.


----------



## oAmadeuso

neowilson said:


> Hi guys, still no closer to buying my amp
> 
> Shall i just go Schiit stack Modi Magni non-uber. Is there a point in getting the Uber version? When would i need to use the optical ports on the DAC, and on the amp?
> 
> Or Schiit Modi + Lyr 2


 
 I had the Modi usb + Lyr 2 and was very happy with it for about a month.
 The Lyr2 was recommended to me here I think, volume wise about %50 was a good listening level on low gain.
 Also tube rolling can add another dimension to the sound.
  
 I would be worried about the Magni having enough "oomph" to properly power the LCD-2 but got no experience on using that.
  
 Good though the Modi is I would say that if your budget allows it consider a Bifrost MB.
 The sound difference was amazing, but it's another large amount of cash to spend I know.


----------



## Orky261

I got the soloist at the end of the year for 890 AUD from addicted to audio, man I'll probably keep this amp for a very long time.


----------



## NeoWilson

oamadeuso said:


> I had the Modi usb + Lyr 2 and was very happy with it for about a month.
> The Lyr2 was recommended to me here I think, volume wise about %50 was a good listening level on low gain.
> Also tube rolling can add another dimension to the sound.
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks for everyone's input. Budget does allow me to get the Bifrost MB + Lyr 2 but i am trying not to jump too fast and keep the cost to a minimum at the moment.
 3 months ago, all i had was ATH-AD700 then came the HE 400i sale during Black Friday.. 6 weeks later, bought the LCD2+AK JR. Hopefully I can sell the AK JR in australia so I can put that towards my ampdac 
  
 Starting to think .. it's a trap!


----------



## Orky261

@NeoWilson it's a slippery slope from here on unless you managed to find a very good combo that can hold your upgradeitis from becoming more malignant for some months lol.


----------



## chillaxing

neowilson said:


> Thanks for everyone's input. Budget does allow me to get the Bifrost MB + Lyr 2 but i am trying not to jump too fast and keep the cost to a minimum at the moment.
> 3 months ago, all i had was ATH-AD700 then came the HE 400i sale during Black Friday.. 6 weeks later, bought the LCD2+AK JR. Hopefully I can sell the AK JR in australia so I can put that towards my ampdac
> 
> Starting to think .. it's a trap!


 
  
  
 yeah... you fell into it, just like the rest of us....


----------



## aqsw

neowilson said:


> Thanks for everyone's input. Budget does allow me to get the Bifrost MB + Lyr 2 but i am trying not to jump too fast and keep the cost to a minimum at the moment.
> 3 months ago, all i had was ATH-AD700 then came the HE 400i sale during Black Friday.. 6 weeks later, bought the LCD2+AK JR. Hopefully I can sell the AK JR in australia so I can put that towards my ampdac
> 
> Starting to think .. it's a trap!



you are screwed. Next you will want the really good stuff, like the Feliks Elise.,
I'm not kidding. It is phenominal.
don't use that word much , but it is.
Best 600 you will ever spend. 600 with no tubes. 
Read the forums for best tube choice.


----------



## bmd1191

Just posted this same question in the Deckard thread but might as well ask it here.
  
 Which would be better for the LCD2 the Deckard or Schiit Asgard 2/ Bifrost stack? The LCD2 will be my first pair of high end headphones and I don't have an amp or dac at all. Source for this will be my 2015 Macbook Pro. Any info will help! Thanks!


----------



## DivergeUnify

neowilson said:


> Hi guys, still no closer to buying my amp
> 
> Shall i just go Schiit stack Modi Magni non-uber. Is there a point in getting the Uber version? When would i need to use the optical ports on the DAC, and on the amp?
> 
> Or Schiit Modi + Lyr 2


if you want to connect to a gaming console


----------



## klyzon

looking for recommendations for tube amps as i like a warmer sound.
  
 any other recommendations other than the lyr 2? Don't really have a good impression of schiit as my friends have all experienced some sort of QC issues with em


----------



## Chuckjones242

Hey Klyzon - I get your question. I have a Lyr 2 and have done a lot of tube rolling with my LCDs. More recently I've tried to find an amp that's "better" than it and I just haven't. It may be the style of music that I listen to (metal, rock) but the lyr connects you directly to the tubes and let's you tailor the sound in ways that are fantastic. The price may seem cheap for it, but once you spend $500 for old Seimens CCA or Bugle Boy tubes it's not cheap anymore.


----------



## aqsw

klyzon said:


> looking for recommendations for tube amps as i like a warmer sound.
> 
> any other recommendations other than the lyr 2? Don't really have a good impression of schiit as my friends have all experienced some sort of QC issues with em


 
 My Feliks Elise absolutely kills the Lyr I owned. The Lyr is not in the same league as the Elise. It may cost you a tad more and the Elise will take time to arrive, as it is made after you order, but it is well worth it.


----------



## Chuckjones242

Ooooo that's nice. I may be tempted by that .....


----------



## klyzon

after sourcing around, i found a WA7fireflies thats slightly more expensive than a lyr2


----------



## sludgeogre

klyzon said:


> looking for recommendations for tube amps as i like a warmer sound.
> 
> any other recommendations other than the lyr 2? Don't really have a good impression of schiit as my friends have all experienced some sort of QC issues with em


 
 I've heard of very few QC issues with Schiit and I've never had a single problem. Any problems I have seen they will deal with immediately and fairly. I wouldn't let that put you off. What issues have they had?


----------



## klyzon

a friend blew a couple of headphones with it. I guess i might go with the wa7 firefllies


----------



## sludgeogre

klyzon said:


> a friend blew a couple of headphones with it. I guess i might go with the wa7 firefllies


 
 That's certainly not a QC issue, that's someone plugging in headphones that can't handle the power. The Lyr 1 is especially well known to melt headphones that people use without thinking "can this little guy handle a couple watts of power?"


----------



## lvince95

sludgeogre said:


> That's certainly not a QC issue, that's someone plugging in headphones that can't handle the power. The Lyr 1 is especially well known to melt headphones that people use without thinking "can this little guy handle a couple watts of power?"


 

 Not sure about the Lyr 1, but the Asgard 1 definitely blew headphones


----------



## cuiter23

sludgeogre said:


> That's certainly not a QC issue, that's someone plugging in headphones that can't handle the power. The Lyr 1 is especially well known to melt headphones that people use without thinking "can this little guy handle a couple watts of power?"





For these affordable amps, Schiit couldnt afford to put a muting relay in them at the beginning. People started knowing when their drivers are going poof...


----------



## lvince95

cuiter23 said:


> For these affordable amps, Schiit couldnt afford to put a muting relay in them at the beginning. People started knowing when their drivers are going poof...


 

 Lol, couldn't afford putting a muting relay? So you are saying it's better to price it cheaper and sell it cheaper, but have the risk of damaging headphones? As always Schiit fanboys are always blinded by smart marketing.


----------



## cuiter23

lvince95 said:


> Lol, couldn't afford putting a muting relay? So you are saying it's better to price it cheaper and sell it cheaper, but have the risk of damaging headphones? As always Schiit fanboys are always blinded by smart marketing.


 
  
 1. How does this have to do with Schiit fanboys being blinded? This is the truth, not marketing.
  
 2. I'm sure that Schiit does not give a damn whether you blow your headphones up or not. If it explicitly says there is no muting relay on the manual, the onus is on the end user to do his due diligence.
  
 You'd be surprised that many relatively affordable amplifiers do not come with muting relays. Even if they did, I always advise to unplug before shutting off.


----------



## lvince95

cuiter23 said:


> 1. How does this have to do with Schiit fanboys being blinded? This is the truth, not marketing.
> 
> 2. I'm sure that Schiit does not give a damn whether you blow your headphones up or not. If it explicitly says there is no muting relay on the manual, the onus is on the end user to do his due diligence.
> 
> You'd be surprised that many relatively affordable amplifiers do not come with muting relays. Even if they did, I always advise to unplug before shutting off.


 

 Are you seriously trying to defend them when they put out a product meant for headphones, but have the ability to blow headphones???? They intentionally excluded DC offsets relay because it has a high failure rate, which directly contradicts how they pride themselves on their 'excellent 5 year warranty'. Yet people still worship the Schiit altar while trashing Chinese companies like Audio-Gd, Aune, etc. for poor warranty service.
  
 Schiit does not care if you blow your headphones or not???? Seriously, what kind of company doesn't care if they deliver a product that can blow your headphones? So by your definition, you're saying Schiit doesn't care about their customers? Maybe, yeah.
  
 EDIT: This is what I meant when I talk about fanboys. Schiit intentionally excluded a component that is critical to power delivery safety, but somehow their fanboys still think Schiit is right and definitely not at fault. Instead it's the user's fault for blowing their headphones (excellently said by cuiter23). I've gone through this argument several times, but all replies always end with 'Schiit is still great!' or 'The Asgard still sounds good!'. There's no point in cooking up a reply to mine, I'm done debating this.


----------



## cuiter23

lvince95 said:


> Are you seriously trying to defend them when they put out a product meant for headphones, but have the ability to blow headphones???? They intentionally excluded DC offsets relay because it has a high failure rate, which directly contradicts how they pride themselves on their 'excellent 5 year warranty'. Yet people still worship the Schiit altar while trashing Chinese companies like Audio-Gd, Aune, etc. for poor warranty service.
> 
> Schiit does not care if you blow your headphones or not???? Seriously, what kind of company doesn't care if they deliver a product that can blow your headphones? So by your definition, you're saying Schiit doesn't care about their customers? Maybe, yeah.


 
  
 First you called me a Schiit fanboy and now you say I am criticizing Schiit? Where did I ever say I was backing them up or let alone supporting them at all? My post was more negative (i.e. No muting relay = bad) rather than singing praises about them.
  
 My response was to "WHY" the headphones kept blowing, I did not place any judgements on Schiit as a company until you came along and falsely imposed that association.
  
 Let me reiterate - the reason why headphones blew was precisely because the Lyr 1 and Asgard 1 did not have muting relays built-in and cost was one of the factors.
  
 It is important to note that the statement above does not entail any sort of prejudices or opinions towards Schiit whatsoever.


----------



## lvince95

cuiter23 said:


> First you called me a Schiit fanboy and now you say I am criticizing Schiit? Where did I ever say I was backing them up or let alone supporting them at all? My post was more negative (i.e. No muting relay = bad) rather than singing praises about them.
> 
> My response was to "WHY" the headphones kept blowing, I did not place any judgements on Schiit as a company until you came along and falsely imposed that association.
> 
> ...


 

 I see. I must have misunderstood then. It's just that when you mentioned 'couldn't afford putting a muting relay', the terminology used seems to show that you were defending them. I would say 'decided not to' would be a better term if you wanted to portray yourself as completely neutral about the issue.
  
 Anyway, doesn't matter, I assumed wrongly. It's an issue of the past anyway, and I don't want to derail the thread.


----------



## dagothur

lvince95 said:


> Not sure about the Lyr 1, but the Asgard 1 definitely blew headphones


 
 The Lyr 1 was infamous for destroying D7000s when it first came out.  The start-up transient was more than 25-ohm cans could handle.  Thankfully I only ever used a small Nuforce unit with my Denons when I had them. 

 On topic, has anybody used the LCD-2s with TOTL Audio-GD gear?  I'm thinking of either upgrading my amp in a year to the NFB-27H or going straight to the HE1000.


----------



## sludgeogre

lvince95 said:


> Are you seriously trying to defend them when they put out a product meant for headphones, but have the ability to blow headphones???? They intentionally excluded DC offsets relay because it has a high failure rate, which directly contradicts how they pride themselves on their 'excellent 5 year warranty'. Yet people still worship the Schiit altar while trashing Chinese companies like Audio-Gd, Aune, etc. for poor warranty service.
> 
> Schiit does not care if you blow your headphones or not???? Seriously, what kind of company doesn't care if they deliver a product that can blow your headphones? So by your definition, you're saying Schiit doesn't care about their customers? Maybe, yeah.
> 
> EDIT: This is what I meant when I talk about fanboys. Schiit intentionally excluded a component that is critical to power delivery safety, but somehow their fanboys still think Schiit is right and definitely not at fault. Instead it's the user's fault for blowing their headphones (excellently said by cuiter23). I've gone through this argument several times, but all replies always end with 'Schiit is still great!' or 'The Asgard still sounds good!'. There's no point in cooking up a reply to mine, I'm done debating this.


 
 Well, I guess you better never, ever buy an amplifier and tower speakers, because it's actually pretty easy to blow speakers up with normal amplifiers if you don't know how to match them. As another user said, the onus is on you. The'yre providing you an amp with really high power, telling you upfront exactly what power it will deliver to your headphones, and that it doesn't give a damn if your headphones can handle the power or not. I'm a big fan of this, personally. It just requires you to understand your headphones and your amp better.
  
 It's not a critical device by any stretch of the imagination. Many companies put as few devices in the signal path as they can. Others put more in there so they won't ever have to deal with people's problems. It's just a design philosophy.


----------



## klyzon

lvince95 said:


> EDIT: This is what I meant when I talk about fanboys. Schiit intentionally excluded a component that is critical to power delivery safety, but somehow their fanboys still think Schiit is right and definitely not at fault. Instead it's the user's fault for blowing their headphones (excellently said by cuiter23). I've gone through this argument several times, but all replies always end with 'Schiit is still great!' or 'The Asgard still sounds good!'. There's no point in cooking up a reply to mine, I'm done debating this.


 
  
  
 i got the wa7 so no problem there


----------



## taxiq

sludgeogre said:


> Well, I guess you better never, ever buy an amplifier and tower speakers, because it's actually pretty easy to blow speakers up with normal amplifiers if you don't know how to match them. As another user said, the onus is on you. The'yre providing you an amp with really high power, telling you upfront exactly what power it will deliver to your headphones, and that it doesn't give a damn if your headphones can handle the power or not. I'm a big fan of this, personally. It just requires you to understand your headphones and your amp better.
> 
> It's not a critical device by any stretch of the imagination. Many companies put as few devices in the signal path as they can. Others put more in there so they won't ever have to deal with people's problems. It's just a design philosophy.


 
  
 Please excuse my confusion, but the Asgard 2 manual specifically states it has a relay mute, quote from manual FAQ:  "Can I leave my headphones plugged in all the time? Yes. Asgard 2 includes a time-delayed relay mute, so you can leave headphones plugged in as you turn it on and off."      Problem solved?    
  
 FWIW, am interested in an amp for my newly arrived LCD 2, which sound terrific when powered by  a preamp, but am wondering if  there is better out there, thus Schiit is on the horizon.


----------



## cuiter23

taxiq said:


> Please excuse my confusion, but the Asgard 2 manual specifically states it has a relay mute, quote from manual FAQ:  "Can I leave my headphones plugged in all the time? Yes. Asgard 2 includes a time-delayed relay mute, so you can leave headphones plugged in as you turn it on and off."      Problem solved?
> 
> FWIW, am interested in an amp for my newly arrived LCD 2, which sound terrific when powered by  a preamp, but am wondering if  there is better out there, thus Schiit is on the horizon.


 
  
 The amplifiers at hand are the Asgard *"1"* and Lyr *"1"*
  
 Either way, I would still unplug the shut off. That click is unsatisfying.


----------



## jodgey4

taxiq said:


> Please excuse my confusion, but the Asgard 2 manual specifically states it has a relay mute, quote from manual FAQ:  "Can I leave my headphones plugged in all the time? Yes. Asgard 2 includes a time-delayed relay mute, so you can leave headphones plugged in as you turn it on and off."      Problem solved?
> 
> FWIW, am interested in an amp for my newly arrived LCD 2, which sound terrific when powered by  a preamp, but am wondering if  there is better out there, thus Schiit is on the horizon.


 
 Which pre-amp? Does it have a dedicated headphone amplifier? If not, any Class A amplifier that can do 500mW+ into your model would really do the trick .


----------



## taxiq

jodgey4 said:


> Which pre-amp? Does it have a dedicated headphone amplifier? If not, any Class A amplifier that can do 500mW+ into your model would really do the trick .


 
 Pass Labs X1 off the pre's RCA's by an AudioQuest  RCA to trs 3.5  cable (until Audeze's balanced cable and balanced adapter arrives.   What I am hearing from the pre is quite impressive with all my cans, EL- 8, HD 600, HD 570, but the LCD 2's are distinctly the best of the bunch.    It would seem the X1 does the trick.   
  
 EDIT:  plus 3 weeks and have pickup a rag and while the X1 still does the trick the rag does it better.   How so, just providing a more richer, more dynamic, more satisfying music experience enough so that the added cost is well spent.
  
 enjoyin' the music, hope you are too.


----------



## jodgey4

Interesting... I'm surprised you get enough power. Idk how comfortable I'd feel running off the pre-outs, but I guess if it sounds good that's all that matters . Most pre-amps are designed to run higher impedance loads for stability. The high output impedance won't really change much for the planars, and the Sennheisers will warm up a bit in the mid bass. If you've got the money, http://audio-gd.com/Pro/Headphoneamp/NFB1AMP/NFB1AMPEN.htm the Audio-GD NFB-1 balanced Class A amp would be the last amp you'd ever need IMHO. It's a pre-amp as well, so you might be able to replace the X1 as well. All just my thoughts , haha.


----------



## taxiq

>


 
@jodgey4  If it surprises you that a preamp would have the power, might take a look at it.  Have you?    If you haven't don't bother, consider this instead.   These HP's might need less juice than one would think.   Took the RCA's, plugged them into the output of the Yggy, and hooked up directly to LCD 2's (after first testing with some junk HP's).   Now would you be surprised that the volume, straight off the DAC, was too loud for comfortable listening (guesstimate say ~ 95db).  And that was off the SE output, the balanced is twice the voltage.  Give it a try with your DAC.
  
  Don't think much more power is needed.  Today, fired up the First Watt F3  (5W to 15W) feed by a Placette passive pre.   No power shortage, in fact needed the fine volume increments its has, i.e. playing volume is about a quarter max. and the many increments aid in setting a pleasant listening level.   Hesitate to be too euphoric regarding the results as SQ should improve with balanced LCD 2 cables.  Audeze points out that with two wires the current flow greater and the resistance less.   Am looking forward testing the new cables out.    'til then will be enjoying the LCD 2s.   By the way, I'm thinking they do need burn in.  Has that been your experience?


----------



## jodgey4

No, I think it's really cool you can do that! Most pre-amps just aren't capable of much current output, only voltage. That's what I was talking about when I mentioned running higher impedance loads for efficiency (often 50k for SE, 100k for balanced).
  
 And hey, if it ain't broke, don't fix it . Adding an amp would only create a longer signal path - useful if you wanted to color the sounds though most people are against that.
  
 Btw the current flow won't change with balanced unless you actually listen louder (which you can do on your X1 vs. SE), though balanced has many advantages. The resistance doesn't change on the cable, and actually, the amp's output impedance is going to double.
  
 It might be that the treble on my LCD-2s smoothed out with time, hard to know. I wasn't really listening, haha. The older models were more prone to it... they've changed their burn-in procedure and materials .


----------



## Deftone

guys, top 3 amps for this headphone? tube or solid. thank you.


----------



## jodgey4

Depends on budget, lol. Gotta give more info than that!


----------



## dagothur

deftone said:


> guys, top 3 amps for this headphone? tube or solid. thank you.


 
 I have heard very good things about:
 Leben CS600
 Antelope Audio Zodiac Gold
 Audio-GD NFB-27

 Haven't heard them but they're TOTL amps and I'm willing to trust Skylab's opinions.


----------



## Deftone

No budget, BUT if there is a fantastic bang for buck option i wont turn it down.


----------



## Deftone

thanks @dagothur


----------



## Chuckjones242

dagothur said:


> I have heard very good things about:
> 
> Leben CS600
> 
> ...




I have the Zodiac which is a fantastic DAC, but not a great headphone amp, especially for the LCD-2. I have used the Lyr for a couple years and more recently the Woo-SE6 with a ton of power and clearly I love tubes.


----------



## buson160man

My lcd2s are with the older wooden encased jacks . I use as my primary headphone amp for the lcd2.2 and my akg 701 my vintage concept 16.5 receiver circa late 1970s . My unit was recapped before I purchased it a year ago and it has been a very stellar headphone amp for the LCD2s . But at least with the 16.5 you have way more power than you need and you do have to watch the level you could easily damage your hearing with this beast when used as a headphone amp. I can not go above the 9 oclock position on the volume it just gets way to loud for safe listening levels. But I do have to say that while I have heard numerous fairly powerful headphone amps I have never heard the kind of authority through any dedicated headphone amp that I have heard that I get from listening to my concept receivers headphone output. The weight and authority is pretty impressive. This beast just loafs when driving headphones and it rarely gets even mildly warm when used in that fashion.
    Of course it is not exactly portable and weighs in at a hefty 67 pounds . But for home use it makes an excellent headphone amplifier for hard to drive headphones. It would be interesting to see how the 16.5 would work with something like the hifiman HE6 . I am sure it would have no trouble at all driving that headphone to deafening levels . These old vintage monsters can make excellent amplifiers as long as they have been recapped and refurbished .


----------



## CanadianMaestro

deftone said:


> guys, top 3 amps for this headphone? tube or solid. thank you.


 
 LCD-2.:
 Bryston BHA-1
 Burson Soloist (original)
 WA7


----------



## leftside

I can give you my thoughts on the BHA-1 and WA22 with the LCD-3 next week if that helps? I'll be picking up a WA22 and already have a BHA-1 and LCD-3.


----------



## CanadianMaestro

leftside said:


> I can give you my thoughts on the BHA-1 and WA22 with the LCD-3 next week if that helps? I'll be picking up a WA22 and already have a BHA-1 and LCD-3.


 

 Looking forward to it!  WA22 is a monster of an amp, never heard it yet. For LCD-2.2 I vastly preferred SS over tubes. Cleared up the lower mids quite a bit with better dynamics than a tube like WA7.
  
 Further reading while you await your 22:
  
 http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/1212/headphone_amplifier_shootout.htm


----------



## leftside

canadianmaestro said:


> Looking forward to it!  WA22 is a monster of an amp, never heard it yet. For LCD-2.2 I vastly preferred SS over tubes. Cleared up the lower mids quite a bit with better dynamics than a tube like WA7.
> 
> Further reading while you await your 22:
> 
> http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/1212/headphone_amplifier_shootout.htm


 

 Yes I've read that. It was one of the reasons why I purchased a BHA-1.It looks like he had a defective WA22.


----------



## CanadianMaestro

leftside said:


> Yes I've read that. It was one of the reasons why I purchased a BHA-1.It looks like he had a defective WA22.


 

 Small world. Surprised he didn't ask for another 22 to review. Very uncharacteristic of WA to have a defective unit.
  
 Let me know in due time how the 22 measures up against the BHA-1. I'm end-game for a while now with BHA-1; don't do much HP as I do with my floor system, so the BHA-1 more than fills my cup (Polaris too for the den!).


----------



## leftside

I can already tell you that the BHA-1 sounds great with the LCD-3. I also have a HiFiMan HE-500 and I prefer the LCD-3. The LCD-3 has an all encompassing sound that I really like. I recently added a tube phono pre, and I really liked what that did to my system, so now it's also time to do some experimenting with a tube headphone amp. I'll report back in a week or so.


----------



## CanadianMaestro

I had LCD-2.2 for almost 3 yrs, loved it for many genres -- it was just too heavy for my neck, so I sold it for an HE560. No looking back. I find it frustrating that an HP like LCD-2 (and -3) can't be made lighter.
  
 With a 20-yr warranty, the BHA-1 is a great value (on top of its SQ). For practically all HPs too.

 I toyed with getting a tubed phono preamp, but didn't know where to start. Very happy with my Simaudio 310LP, very transparent but not at all clinical. With the right interconnect, it really does well. My one reservation with a tubed phono is whether it would make an already warmish LP playback system too warm or thick.


----------



## 394216

Has anyone heard the Burson Soloist SL MKII? is the 100$ difference to the MKI that noticeable? How would these compare to ifi iCan SE or the Liquid Carbon?
  
 I will be using my iDSD Micro as DAC.


----------



## marcan

Got the Brysto BHA-1 and I can say it goes very well with LCD2. Detailed, powerful and deep. Particularly with the balanced output.
 It is extremely transparent so I had to change my dac because it revealed its flaw.


----------



## leftside

canadianmaestro said:


> I toyed with getting a tubed phono preamp, but didn't know where to start. Very happy with my Simaudio 310LP, very transparent but not at all clinical. With the right interconnect, it really does well. My one reservation with a tubed phono is whether it would make an already warmish LP playback system too warm or thick.


 
 I tried many phono preamps. None could beat the MC input on my C100 preamp. But, then I tried an Allnic H-1201. It was exactly what I was looking for. Biggest improvement was the highs. But, the Simaudio 310LP is a very nice phono preamp. I think you'd have to spend considerably more to beat it... Shame we don't live a little closer - we could have done a comparison.


----------



## leftside

marcan said:


> Got the Brysto BHA-1 and I can say it goes very well with LCD2. Detailed, powerful and deep. Particularly with the balanced output.
> It is extremely transparent so I had to change my dac because it revealed its flaw.


 

 I also found it to be very revealing when combined with the rest of my system. I consider this to be a positive, but I've become very fussy to the vinyl I listen to.


----------



## marcan

leftside said:


> I also found it to be very revealing when combined with the rest of my system. I consider this to be a positive, but I've become very fussy to the vinyl I listen to.


 
 Yes I'm getting very picky sound wise. I'm avoiding bad recording/mastering.
 The stereo image is also very precise. Bad panning or flawed stereo balance are easily catched.


----------



## CanadianMaestro

leftside said:


> I tried many phono preamps. None could beat the MC input on my C100 preamp. But, then I tried an Allnic H-1201. It was exactly what I was looking for. Biggest improvement was the highs. But, the Simaudio 310LP is a very nice phono preamp. I think you'd have to spend considerably more to beat it... Shame we don't live a little closer - we could have done a comparison.


 

 Gimme a PM next time you plan to be in Edmonton. Vancouver ain't that far off.
  
 The Allnic looks cool. Probably smokes my 310LP. Too bad my shelf won't accommodate its height.


----------



## Matias

After testing side by side I believe an Asgard 2 is a better value against the Soloist for the LCD-2s. The difference was already small using LCD-X, with LCD-2 should be minimum, and definitively not worth the price difference. Asgard 2 is an insane value.


----------



## 394216

matias said:


> After testing side by side I believe an Asgard 2 is a better value against the Soloist for the LCD-2s. The difference was already small using LCD-X, with LCD-2 should be minimum, and definitively not worth the price difference. Asgard 2 is an insane value.


 
 Too bad I cant audition any schiit and burson products here in our country. We have iFi here but iCAN SE is not yet available. Anyone compared the iCAN with the Asgard 2?


----------



## HPiper

torpedorag said:


> Too bad I cant audition any schiit and burson products here in our country. We have iFi here but iCAN SE is not yet available. Anyone compared the iCAN with the Asgard 2?


 
 I'd like to second that, I am looking at getting a good solid state amp for my LCD2's and the Asgard 2 is in the final group and leading I'd say, based in large part to it's price.


----------



## 394216

These 3 are on my radar right now. But I can only audition the iFi
  
 -iFi iCAN orig/SE
 -Burson Soloist SL MKI/II
 -used Liquid Carbon?
  
  
 I'm hoping that iCAN SE is good enough, my iDSD Micro amp sounds lean sometimes.
  
 I'm tempted by the price of the Burson right now, at 399 and 499.


----------



## Chuckjones242

what a huge thread!  I picked up a Woo Audio SE-6 a couple weekends ago (instead of the WA7) as a replacement for my Schiit Lyr (with $500+ Siemens CCA tubes) and I could not be happier with it.  Tubes aren't for everyone, and I'm not someone who listens to chamber music or Norah Jones either, it's more like Black Sabbath, Electric Wizard, Elder, Deafheaven, etc.  If you want more details about my experiences let me know.  Both the Lyr and the SE-6 have phenomenal power for the LCD-2,3, probably 4 (but if you have the $ for a 4 I doubt you'll be looking at these amps).  I got a Burson Soloist SL for Christmas and after a couple of weeks I had my fiance return it.  It wasn't near the Schiit Lyr for my tastes.


----------



## SupaFuzz

torpedorag said:


> These 3 are on my radar right now. But I can only audition the iFi
> 
> -iFi iCAN orig/SE
> -Burson Soloist SL MKI/II
> ...


 

 I can whole heartedly recommend the Burson Soloist SL!  And I hear great things about the LC but for the $$$, the Burson is impossible to beat!!


----------



## 394216

supafuzz said:


> I can whole heartedly recommend the Burson Soloist SL!  And I hear great things about the LC but for the $$$, the Burson is impossible to beat!!


 
 Do you have the mkI or mkII? I'm thinking on getting just the mkI since my LCD-2 is relatively sensitive already.


----------



## Lohb

torpedorag said:


> Do you have the mkI or mkII? I'm thinking on getting just the mkI since my LCD-2 is relatively sensitive already.


 

 Is there a Mk1 going ? Don't see them much these days for sale.


----------



## 394216

lohb said:


> Is there a Mk1 going ? Don't see them much these days for sale.


 
 I think burson still makes them. There is a "BUY NOW" button here:
  
 http://www.bursonaudio.com/products/soloist-sl/


----------



## Lohb

torpedorag said:


> I think burson still makes them. There is a "BUY NOW" button here:
> 
> http://www.bursonaudio.com/products/soloist-sl/


 

 Aha, my mistake I thought you were after an LCD 2.1....


----------



## 394216

lohb said:


> Aha, my mistake I thought you were after an LCD 2.1....


 
 LOL. As for LCD-2 2.1, There is someone selling in our local forums for 450$. Too bad I already got the fazor.


----------



## leftside

leftside said:


> I can give you my thoughts on the BHA-1 and WA22 with the LCD-3 next week if that helps? I'll be picking up a WA22 and already have a BHA-1 and LCD-3.


 

 I've been listening to the BHA-1 + LCD-3 for a while now and I really like that combo. I've also been trying out the WA22 with the tubes mentioned in my signature this weekend. The Sylvania 7236's definitely make a big difference with the LCD-3's. They appreciate the more power, but it's not still not as powerful as the BHA-1. I have some more power tubes arriving shortly, so perhaps they will make even more of a difference.
  
 The BHA-1 suits the LCD-3's very well. You just plug it in and away you go. The WA22 is a bit of a different beast. More effort (and expense) is required with the tube rolling. I've spent many, many hours on the Internet this week researching different tubes and different tube combos. If you want the "very best" tubes then it will cost you a lot of money! This is if you can find those tubes in the first place...
  
 I did multiple A/B comparisons (I can drive both amps at the same time), and I have to give the preference to the WA22. It just has such a silky smooth sound to it, but I'm also keeping the BHA-1.


----------



## CanadianMaestro

^ What is it about the BHA-1 that makes it less "smooth" (than WA22)? I value transparency and lack of coloration ("neutrality") the most. Both give Musicality in the end. Not the only road to M, as there are multiple paths to Nirvana.


----------



## leftside

Hard to say/describe. You'll have to pop over and give it a listen


----------



## dagothur

In the next year I'd like to upgrade my amp to either the Oppa HA-1 or an Audio-GD TOTL unit.  I really enjoy the sound signature of the NFB-10SE as well as the copious power and general aesthetics.  I primarily listen to heavy metal and classical music and the budget is up to $2000.  Which should I choose?


----------



## Hifi59

I can state from my experience with various headphone amps and a variety of LCD (LCD-2f ,X and 3f) headphones, they benefit greatly from fast amps. That usually means solid state. And for me, I narrowed it down to Burson.
I happen to believe that the synergy between Burson Amps and Lcds is fantastic. Bursons have the heft and sparkle that really brings the Lcds to life. I recently violated my own advice and bought a Schiit Mjolnir 2 with some of the best known tubes for it amongst other tubes. I used it in balanced mode. I tried se mode, and it was just sad , sound quality wise and lacked power too. After two weeks of giving it a chance, I decided to reconnect my Burson Soloist.
It was an AHHHH moment. Life returned to the music. The weight of the bass was back. Tight and controlled.That Burson sparkle to the high end (not brightwise) was back. Needless to say, I sold the Schiit.


----------



## 394216

hifi59 said:


> I can state from my experience with various headphone amps and a variety of LCD (LCD-2f ,X and 3f) headphones, they benefit greatly from fast amps. That usually means solid state. And for me, I narrowed it down to Burson.
> I happen to believe that the synergy between Burson Amps and Lcds is fantastic. Bursons have the heft and sparkle that really brings the Lcds to life. I recently violated my own advice and bought a Schiit Mjolnir 2 with some of the best known tubes for it amongst other tubes. I used it in balanced mode. I tried se mode, and it was just sad , sound quality wise and lacked power too. After two weeks of giving it a chance, I decided to reconnect my Burson Soloist.
> It was an AHHHH moment. Life returned to the music. The weight of the bass was back. Tight and controlled.That Burson sparkle to the high end (not brightwise) was back. Needless to say, I sold the Schiit.


 
 Looks like I made the right decision. I ordered the clearance Soloist SL mkI direct from Burson a few days ago. Can't wait for it to arrive!


----------



## Chuckjones242

torpedorag said:


> Looks like I made the right decision. I ordered the clearance Soloist SL mkI direct from Burson a few days ago. Can't wait for it to arrive!


 
  
 Let me know how it goes for you.  I have the LCD-X and didn't care for the Soloist SL match.  From what I understand the Soloist is quite different from the SL however.  At any rate I returned the SL and eventually would up with the Woo Amp which I love.  Good luck!


----------



## cuiter23

chuckjones242 said:


> Let me know how it goes for you.  I have the LCD-X and didn't care for the Soloist SL match.  From what I understand the Soloist is quite different from the SL however.  At any rate I returned the SL and eventually would up with the Woo Amp which I love.  Good luck!


 
  
 IIRC  the Soloist SL uses the same design philosophy and very similar topology as the Soloist except with "downsized" transformers and other components. 
  
 I paired my SL Mk2 with the LCD-2 and it drove them effortlessly. Haven't heard the LCD-X.


----------



## 394216

I read somewhere that the change from step attenuator to alps pot is what changes the sound of the soloist and the SL

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk


----------



## SupaFuzz

chuckjones242 said:


> Let me know how it goes for you.  I have the LCD-X and didn't care for the Soloist SL match.  From what I understand the Soloist is quite different from the SL however.  At any rate I returned the SL and eventually would up with the Woo Amp which I love.  Good luck!


 

 I found that the LCD-X paired better with the BHA-1...


----------



## Chuckjones242

supafuzz said:


> I found that the LCD-X paired better with the BHA-1...




That figures, was contemplating the Bryston but hadn't heard much about it in years...


----------



## lbrown062

I'm saving up for LCD-2s. Due to their cost and my budget, I'll have limited funds to spend on an Amp (and maybe a DAC). I need something that will drive them well for under $300. Based on my research, some options I've seen are:
  
 Schiit Asgard 2
 Schiit Magni/Modi stack
 JDS Labs O2/ODAC
 OPPO HA-2
 Little Dot MK III
 DarkVoice 336SE
 FiiO E12
  
 Which would you recommend? Are there better options in this price range?
  
 Thanks!


----------



## dagothur

I've done some serious listening with the LCD-2/O2 pairing and found them to be a musical combo.  It's not something you'll want to stick with in the long term if you have the cheddar for improvements, but if you're budget minded and want bang/buck the O2 is your unit.


----------



## SupaFuzz

lbrown062 said:


> I'm saving up for LCD-2s. Due to their cost and my budget, I'll have limited funds to spend on an Amp (and maybe a DAC). I need something that will drive them well for under $300. Based on my research, some options I've seen are:
> 
> Schiit Asgard 2
> Schiit Magni/Modi stack
> ...


 

 Get an Amp/DAC.  The Mojo is the best there is under $1500 and it is only $600.


----------



## Maio

Hi,
  
 I just caught a whiff of the upgrade bug  I have the LCD-2 with a M1 DAC and the M1HPA and I'm looking into at least upgrading the amp. Is the Violectric V200 one of the better choices out there? Appreciate any input! 
  
 Thanks!


----------



## SupaFuzz

maio said:


> Hi,
> 
> I just caught a whiff of the upgrade bug  I have the LCD-2 with a M1 DAC and the M1HPA and I'm looking into at least upgrading the amp. Is the Violectric V200 one of the better choices out there? Appreciate any input!
> 
> Thanks!


 

 BHA-1


----------



## Maio

supafuzz said:


> BHA-1


 
 Really? Is the Bryston much better than the Violectric?


----------



## SupaFuzz

V281>BHA-1>V200
  
 In my opinion.  Better is subjective of course...


----------



## Maio

Yeah it's all subjective 
  
 Arranged after price as well. I'm looking not spend more than 1000usd, I guess the question is if the V200 is still relevant now? It was launched in 2010 I think?


----------



## SupaFuzz

I like the XLR option which the V200 does not have...


----------



## Maio

I'm probably not gonna be using XLR anyways.
  
 Interested in hearing more opinions on whether the V200 is still one of the better choices for the LCD-2 in 2016


----------



## jodgey4

The H10 is getting a lot of attention, especially with upgraded OPA. Although the parts aren't as high quality as the V200... so it's apples to apples but more red to green. I like green more, so just imagine that's the V200.

 This metaphor is falling apart.


----------



## Lohb

Anyone running the MOJO into any kind of tube amp (such as project ember 2) with the LCD-2s ?
 I'd imagine it would be a great combo/contrast between MOJO alone and the MOJO + tube for less total cost together than some SS amps....Tube coming in for older recordings...MOJO for fast and technical electronic music....
 Just received a MOJO and it's a little box of magic.


----------



## Maio

jodgey4 said:


> The H10 is getting a lot of attention, especially with upgraded OPA. Although the parts aren't as high quality as the V200... so it's apples to apples but more red to green. I like green more, so just imagine that's the V200.
> 
> This metaphor is falling apart.


 
 Hahah yeah it's pretty much broken now! Cool, I'm very close to purchasing the V200 to be honest, feels like a great choice after what I've read.


----------



## bavinck

lohb said:


> Anyone running the MOJO into any kind of tube amp (such as project ember 2) with the LCD-2s ?
> I'd imagine it would be a great combo/contrast between MOJO alone and the MOJO + tube for less total cost together than some SS amps....Tube coming in for older recordings...MOJO for fast and technical electronic music....
> Just received a MOJO and it's a little box of magic.


 
 I just ordered an lcd2 and already have a mojo. Good pairing? I sure hope so lol.


----------



## Lohb

bavinck said:


> I just ordered an lcd2 and already have a mojo. Good pairing? I sure hope so lol.


 

 You won't be disappointed


----------



## x RELIC x

bavinck said:


> I just ordered an lcd2 and already have a mojo. Good pairing? I sure hope so lol.




IMO, yes!


----------



## Steve Wilcox

That's exactly what I'm listening to as a write - I really don't think you'll be disappointed.


----------



## Alchemist007

What would be a recommended upgrade going from an O2/ODAC for <$500 for a 2.2 pre-fazor?


----------



## Lohb

alchemist007 said:


> What would be a recommended upgrade going from an O2/ODAC for <$500 for a 2.2 pre-fazor?


 

 A used MOJO if you can grab one.
 Or one of these used..
 http://us.marantz.com/us/products/pages/ProductDetails.aspx?CatId=hificomponents&ProductId=PM6005
 It has a lot of overlap with Questyle QP1-R.....The same Cirrus DAC chip, discrete boutique amp chips vs off-the-shelf OPAMP stuff, high current drive - perfect for planars.
 For the older 2.1, it could even go on speaker taps balanced, 2.2 and F, in here below -

  
  
 What price point would it be if they stuck 'headphone amp' on it vs desktop speaker amp...double...or more.


----------



## Alchemist007

After reading some more of this thread I'm wondering if I should go with a DAC instead, after playing around with my old udac2 and then also my computer as sources (using the O2 as the amp), I think it made a big difference as well. What would be a good DAC for the same price point of sub $500? Assuming there's something better than the Mojo (since it's a dac + amp), or is the answer the same?


----------



## Lohb

alchemist007 said:


> After reading some more of this thread I'm wondering if I should go with a DAC instead, after playing around with my old udac2 and then also my computer as sources (using the O2 as the amp), I think it made a big difference as well. What would be a good DAC for the same price point of sub $500? Assuming there's something better than the Mojo (since it's a dac + amp), or is the answer the same?


 

 HRT microStreamer DAC is like a baby MOJO to my ears - natural and detailed.


----------



## x RELIC x

alchemist007 said:


> After reading some more of this thread I'm wondering if I should go with a DAC instead, after playing around with my old udac2 and then also my computer as sources (using the O2 as the amp), I think it made a big difference as well. What would be a good DAC for the same price point of sub $500? Assuming there's something better than the Mojo (since it's a dac + amp), or is the answer the same?




The output of the Mojo is a lot more powerful that its size would portray and the DAC is very very clean. The analogue output is fully discrete so there are no op-amps to bypass. Think of the Mojo as an exceptional DAC with full time variable line out. In essence, you buy the Mojo for the DAC and don't have to worry about double amping because the signal is so clean.


----------



## SupaFuzz

x relic x said:


> The output of the Mojo is a lot more powerful that its size would portray and the DAC is very very clean. The analogue output is fully discrete so there are no op-amps to bypass. Think of the Mojo as an exceptional DAC with full time variable line out. In essence, you buy the Mojo for the DAC and don't have to worry about double amping because the signal is so clean.


 

 What he said...


----------



## Alchemist007

I'm hearing that it's a bit on the bright end (I'm trying to avoid sibilance, with some tracks I have due to mastering...), how does the Bifrost compare to the mojo in terms of DAC?


----------



## bavinck

alchemist007 said:


> I'm hearing that it's a bit on the bright end (I'm trying to avoid sibilance, with some tracks I have due to mastering...), how does the Bifrost compare to the mojo in terms of DAC?


 
 Mojo is bright? If that's what you mean - no. If anything Mojo is a warm sound sig.


----------



## ph58

Just received the Audio GD NFB 29H for my LCD 2F . The MOJO is very good but the Audio GD is much better, better soundstage , better bass , mids , highs , everythings open up ! For the price i thinks that is an excellent combo .


----------



## coolcat

dont know if anyone already mention M3 amp


----------



## OctaviaeZ

Just bought an LCD 2.2 Pre-fazor, would I be making a mistake using it with a modi magni stack? I don't have too much to spend, so not sure what to do


----------



## jodgey4

The Magni has enough power certainly. Personally, I'd look for just a ~$200 Class A SS amp with enough power, and add a DAC later.


----------



## sludgeogre

octaviaez said:


> Just bought an LCD 2.2 Pre-fazor, would I be making a mistake using it with a modi magni stack? I don't have too much to spend, so not sure what to do


 
 I always enjoyed my LCD-2 with my Modi/Magni. That will keep you happy until you can upgrade.


----------



## OctaviaeZ

sludgeogre said:


> I always enjoyed my LCD-2 with my Modi/Magni. That will keep you happy until you can upgrade.







jodgey4 said:


> The Magni has enough power certainly. Personally, I'd look for just a ~$200 Class A SS amp with enough power, and add a DAC later.




Thanks for the replies! Any affordable tube amps under $200? I was looking at a little dot mk-2... There was also a schiit valhalla in the for sale forums


----------



## jodgey4

Those amps probably don't have enough power for planars. They require lots of current, which OTL designs can't output. Your best bet would be a high powered hybrid like the Garage1217 Ember.


----------



## bavinck

I bet cayin c5 would do it for you. It powered my alpha primes great when I had them. It's a portable too, so you can move it around easily.


----------



## OctaviaeZ

jodgey4 said:


> Those amps probably don't have enough power for planars. They require lots of current, which OTL designs can't output. Your best bet would be a high powered hybrid like the Garage1217 Ember.



Wish i could afford one :c



bavinck said:


> I bet cayin c5 would do it for you. It powered my alpha primes great when I had them. It's a portable too, so you can move it around easily.



Worth it over a magni tho?


----------



## sludgeogre

octaviaez said:


> Wish i could afford one :c
> Worth it over a magni tho?


 
 I wouldn't step up to a tube amp until you can afford a decent one. Maybe keep your eyes out for a used Lyr or Lyr 2. I don't think the C5 is worth it over the Magni, unless you need it for portable use.


----------



## bavinck

octaviaez said:


> Wish i could afford one :c
> Worth it over a magni tho?



Magni and c5 have a similar sound. Magni has more power, c5 has a nice bass boost. You pick.


----------



## OctaviaeZ

sludgeogre said:


> I wouldn't step up to a tube amp until you can afford a decent one. Maybe keep your eyes out for a used Lyr or Lyr 2. I don't think the C5 is worth it over the Magni, unless you need it for portable use.




I could maybe get this lyr if i sold the stack, how important is the modi?


----------



## jodgey4

What's your source? Most non-super-low-budget motherboards made in the last 5 years are good enough that you could wait. I'd go for the amp, add the DAC later, regardless lol.


----------



## OctaviaeZ

jodgey4 said:


> What's your source? Most non-super-low-budget motherboards made in the last 5 years are good enough that you could wait. I'd go for the amp, add the DAC later, regardless lol.




P8P67 Deluxe, seems to be pretty decent


----------



## sludgeogre

Honestly I prefer the sound of solid state to tubes and I've found the Modi to be better than most motherboards. Tubes are fascinating and look pretty, but I listen to mostly death metal, so they're just not a good match.
  
 I'd say stick with the Modi/Magni for a while, get used to how that sounds, and when you upgrade in a year or so you'll really be able to appreciate it.


----------



## jodgey4

Dude(tte), I have the same motherboard! Haha. Yea, the chipset in it is good enough IMHO though sometimes noisy with sensitive loads. The noise might be enough of a reason to get an external DAC.


----------



## bavinck

I strongly agree with the m&m stack. The modi is an excellent dac and will serve you well. The Magni might be the only amp you ever need. Avoid onboard dacs like the plague. Even if they are half decent, it would be very noisy.


----------



## CanadianMaestro

^ A separate quality DAC will make a significant difference than an all-in-one.


----------



## OctaviaeZ

welp got a Schiit Lyr with golden globes for a good price  i agree i probs should've stayed with the stack for a while, but with this price i have enough money to keep my dac


----------



## bavinck

canadianmaestro said:


> ^ A separate quality DAC will make a significant difference than an all-in-one.


 
 Not necessarily. Mojo is an amazing dac that acts as a quality amp as well. Most Audio GD stuff is all in one and sounds excellent. It's not the "separateness" of the dac that is important, but the implementation of the chipset is what counts.


----------



## exsomnis

canadianmaestro said:


> ^ A separate quality DAC will make a significant difference than an all-in-one.


 
 Quote:


bavinck said:


> Not necessarily. Mojo is an amazing dac that acts as a quality amp as well. Most Audio GD stuff is all in one and sounds excellent. It's not the "separateness" of the dac that is important, but the implementation of the chipset is what counts.


 
  
 Agreed. It is always about the quality of the implementation and design of the DAC or amp or both together. So saying that a separate DAC is always better is just wrong. 
  
 A cheap standalone USB DAC is not going to beat the DAC portion of, say, the Audeze Deckard or Burson Conductor or Audio-gd Master 11 or any number of well regarded DAC/Amps. 
  
 Having a separate DAC and amp is simply useful for the option to upgrade either DAC or Amp at any time down the road. Any difference between separate DACs and an integrated DAC section of an amp will be down to implementation and design. Having a separate DAC may possibly reduce electrical interference from the amp circuitry but designers of good DAC/Amps will have taken care of that to the point of there being no discernible difference in SQ, if the equivalent DAC design was done separately.
  
 That's worth a test with an O2+ODAC integrated combo vs a standalone O2 and standalone ODAC. (Excellent starting point for a DAC/AMP combo, just btw).


----------



## CanadianMaestro

exsomnis said:


> Agreed. It is always about the quality of the implementation and design of the DAC or amp or both together. So saying that a separate DAC is *always better* is just wrong.


 
 I didn't quite say "always better" now, did I?


----------



## CanadianMaestro

bavinck said:


> It's not the "separateness" of the dac that is important, but the implementation of the chipset is what counts.


 

 definitely agree about implementation. Separate PS for analog and digital sections, dual mono design, etc.


----------



## exsomnis

canadianmaestro said:


> I didn't quite say "always better" now, did I?


 
  
 No, you didn't. But that is the inference to make from your statement.


----------



## bavinck

exsomnis said:


> No, you didn't. But that is the inference to make from your statement.


 
 In fairness, that was the same interpretation I had of the comment.


----------



## CanadianMaestro

Let it stand, it's still relevant.


----------



## bavinck

canadianmaestro said:


> Let it stand, it's still relevant.



 

Let what stand? I agree with the other poster that your assertion of a dac-only device being better is wrong. That cannot stand.


----------



## CanadianMaestro

bavinck said:


> canadianmaestro said:
> 
> 
> > Let it stand, it's still relevant.
> ...


 
 sue me. I stand by it. Verbatim.


----------



## sludgeogre

bavinck said:


> canadianmaestro said:
> 
> 
> > Let it stand, it's still relevant.
> ...


----------



## CanadianMaestro

sludgeogre said:


>


 
  
 LOL. Or this...




  
 Seriously, I do believe that having separates (DAC + amp) that are *rightly implemented* (to appease our learned friend @bavinck  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ) would offer not only better SQ, but more latitude for tweaking the sound down the line.....by making adjustments to amp or DAC, or both (fuses, tube rolling, etc). Without the confounding complexities of a combined DAC/Amp (e.g. say one hears some anomaly in a combo unit -- is it the DAC part, or the amp part? Not eazy to figure out).


----------



## sludgeogre

I'll leave the complexities of combined designs to the engineers. As far as I can tell, as long as things are separated nicely as far as interference/noise and power supplies, everything is good. Also, my DX80 DAP sounds really, really good and I can't argue with that. I think it's fair to say that doing separates is just easier, while a combined design needs to be more complex. Meh, whatever floats your boat.


----------



## mkarikom

maio said:


> I'm probably not gonna be using XLR anyways.
> 
> Interested in hearing more opinions on whether the V200 is still one of the better choices for the LCD-2 in 2016


 
  
 It totally rocks with the LCD-2F.  That said, I'm in line for the Pass Labs HPA-1.  If I buy that then I'll sell you my V200


----------



## exsomnis

canadianmaestro said:


> LOL. Or this...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Let me keep the fire burning with what I should have stated out loud to begin with, so to speak - to make it clear for everyone what I implied.
  
 Given the different designs and implementations of standalone DACs and integrated DAC solutions, and their varying degrees of fidelity in processing digital sound into an analog signal output, and the word 'better' referring to the relative sound quality of the DAC, it stands that:
  
 Some standalone DACs are better than the DAC sections of Amps with integrated DACs.
  
 Some DAC sections of Amps with integrated DACs are better than standalone DACs.
  
 All standalone DACs are not better than the DAC sections of Amps with intgerated DACs.
  
 All DAC sections of Amps with integrated DACs are not better than standalone DACs.


----------



## CanadianMaestro

^ This is all good and fine. The cardinal rule is still, do what sounds right to one's own ears and system matching. Separates or integrated.
  
 onwards and upwards.


----------



## bavinck

canadianmaestro said:


> ^ This is all good and fine. The cardinal rule is still, do what sounds right to one's own ears and system matching. Separates or integrated.
> 
> onwards and upwards.



You're like the energizer bunny. I think we all know how you feel - no need to keep repeating.


----------



## CanadianMaestro

bavinck said:


> You're like the energizer bunny. I think we all know how you feel - no need to keep repeating.


 

 OK I'll shut up.


----------



## Alchemist007

ph58 said:


> Just received the Audio GD NFB 29H for my LCD 2F . The MOJO is very good but the Audio GD is much better, better soundstage , better bass , mids , highs , everythings open up ! For the price i thinks that is an excellent combo .


 

 How are the details? I've heard some say it's too smooth.


----------



## Lohb

alchemist007 said:


> How are the details? I've heard some say it's too smooth.


 

 ES9018 smooth in the A-GD ? There must be some strong custom filtering going on in there then.


----------



## ph58

alchemist007 said:


> How are the details? I've heard some say it's too smooth.


 

 Plenty of details , not smooth at all !


----------



## White Lotus

Hey guys, is this all I would need to plug my LCD 2.2 into a (suitable) speaker amp?
  
 Or do I need a full custom cable made?


----------



## Skampmeister

I currently have the latest revision of the LCD 2's (made in March this year) and I am using them with a Chord Mojo.
Someone on another forum mentioned that he liked the Schiit Mjolnir 2 for the LCD2's. 

So the question is, what would be better in people's opinion, the LCD's only with the Mojo or the Mojo as a source running into a Schiit Mjolnir. 

I can't audition one because there's none for sale in my city. 

Cheers.


----------



## Lohb

white lotus said:


> Hey guys, is this all I would need to plug my LCD 2.2 into a (suitable) speaker amp?
> 
> Or do I need a full custom cable made?


 

 That is looking weird bro. I'd get custom taps kit made. Mine had 4 tap connections (L +- and R +- whereas that has 2???) I'd also go with robust XLR plugs so you
 Have your headphone cable terminating in 1)  XLR Male then 2) a female XLR to speaker taps adapter and 3) a female XLR to single end plug adapter. So you can flip between SE or taps as required.
  
 This is what I had before..
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/736710/audeze-speaker-taps-single-end-cryo-up-occ-litz-cableset#post_11168305


----------



## White Lotus

lohb said:


> That is looking weird bro. I'd get custom taps kit made. Mine had 4 tap connections (L +- and R +- whereas that has 2???) I'd also go with robust XLR plugs so you
> Have your headphone cable terminating in 1)  XLR Male then 2) a female XLR to speaker taps adapter and 3) a female XLR to single end plug adapter. So you can flip between SE or taps as required.
> 
> This is what I had before..
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/736710/audeze-speaker-taps-single-end-cryo-up-occ-litz-cableset#post_11168305


 
  
 Thanks for the advice!
  
 I actually have a fully balanced cable (4-pin XLR) from Audeze.
  
 Perhaps I just need to connect it to something like this?


----------



## Lohb

white lotus said:


> Thanks for the advice!
> 
> I actually have a fully balanced cable (4-pin XLR) from Audeze.
> 
> Perhaps I just need to connect it to something like this?


 

 Yep, that will work out of the speaker taps.


----------



## desik

Hi,
 Anyone tried both H10 and Lyr/ Lyr2? Which one was better with LCD-2.2F?


----------



## chesebert

Is there a reason why my AMB M3/Q11 sounds better than the Beta22 (3 channel with DACT) with LCD-2f? 
  
 All my other cans are the other way around, as it should be.


----------



## exsomnis

chesebert said:


> Is there a reason why my AMB M3/Q11 sounds better than the Beta22 (3 channel with DACT) with LCD-2f?
> 
> All my other cans are the other way around, as it should be.


 
  
 There are definitely some situations where the LCDs are good with certain amps as opposed to other headphones (this is well documented with all kinds of cans). But for LCDs I see that it mainly comes down to power requirements.
  
 The LCD-2F has an impedance of 70 ohms and should be driven by an amp that can provide 1-4 watts of power at that impedance to provide the best results. Given two amps of similar quality but different power output, the one that provides good, clean power within the sweet spot of 1-4W will sound better. 
  
 And of course, there is that personal preference that comes in to play.


----------



## Alchemist007

What determines whether the amp is really good enough? I would think loudness, the O2 doesn't give close to 1W but sounds plenty loud to me at the 9-11 o'clock position - not even close to max. What about a 4W amp would make it sound different, because I think at the same positions it would blow your ears out as far as loudness is concerned.


----------



## sludgeogre

alchemist007 said:


> What determines whether the amp is really good enough? I would think loudness, the O2 doesn't give close to 1W but sounds plenty loud to me at the 9-11 o'clock position - not even close to max. What about a 4W amp would make it sound different, because I think at the same positions it would blow your ears out as far as loudness is concerned.


 
 Headroom for big dynamic peaks and transients is the biggest difference to my ears, but it all depends on the amp topology as well. If it's a Class A amp, I don't think you need 4 watts of power, 1 watt max seems to do me just fine. I've plugged into beefier amps and it sounded just as delicious. If you compare a 1 watt Class A and Class D amp, you'll want to light the class D amp on fire, as those need a whole lot more headroom to sound good.
  
 As far as I'm concerned, a well designed amp that can put 1 true watt of power into a headphone around 50 ohms is all you need for almost any application besides really crazy headphones.


----------



## exsomnis

alchemist007 said:


> What determines whether the amp is really good enough? I would think loudness, the O2 doesn't give close to 1W but sounds plenty loud to me at the 9-11 o'clock position - not even close to max. What about a 4W amp would make it sound different, because I think at the same positions it would blow your ears out as far as loudness is concerned.


 
  
 I too once thought that my O2 was all that with my LCD 2. Until I heard a few 1W+ amps. My current amp does crazy numbers but the main difference in sound for me is the gravitas and immediacy of the music. It is night and day between having the power and not - especially listening at moderately loud to loud levels. A drum getting beaten is _getting beaten in your vicinity_ as opposed to sounding like a recording of it. Bass is thunderous and reaches down low - you'll finally realise what people mean when they say that LCD 2 bass is slamming. It's a full bodied sound that is the closest one can get to a proper speaker setup - for me at least.
  
 You will also have a better sense of the air and transient sounds in and around instruments, because the instruments have become distinct. Transients are better, strings are more present, pianos are more liquid...it's hard for me to describe but you will definitely recognise the difference.


----------



## marcan

exsomnis said:


> It's a full bodied sound that is the closest one can get to a proper speaker setup - for me at least.


 
 It is even better for me at least. No room treatment can give you this transients and distortion free sub bass.


----------



## Dr John

I have tried a simple Pangea amp, and a few other more elaborate units with different technologies- OTL, poor bass response, class 'A' , too bright, hybrids, too bright, poor staging. But then i found the match for the LCD2's - The WOO AUDIO WA6-SE with the tube upgrade to the Sophia Prrincess. Once broken iin they ar the best > IMO


----------



## coolcat

chesebert said:


> Is there a reason why my AMB M3/Q11 sounds better than the Beta22 (3 channel with DACT) with LCD-2f?
> 
> All my other cans are the other way around, as it should be.


 
 I've also found the M3 match my LCDX better than the B22. have you also found that  the M3 doesn't try to change the LCD into something else, it just emphasize the strong points of the LCD , it doesn't try to make the soundstage bigger or give you a better instruments seperation (actually everything is fine with M3 but I think there are some amps which do it better), it just give the bass punch, emphassize the mid, open up the high just a bit , that's it, but the overall listening experience is just right, this is the LCD(X), I wanna listen to


----------



## chesebert

coolcat said:


> I've also found the M3 match my LCDX better than the B22. have you also found that  the M3 doesn't try to change the LCD into something else, it just emphasize the strong points of the LCD , it doesn't try to make the soundstage bigger or give you a better instruments seperation (actually everything is fine with M3 but I think there are some amps which do it better), it just give the bass punch, emphassize the mid, open up the high just a bit , that's it, but the overall listening experience is just right, this is the LCD(X), I wanna listen to


 
 Your impression is pretty much spot on. However, I have been using my LCD exclusively with my B22 but not without some tweaking. My Linn Klimax DS allows me to input a customized parametric function within the DS's firmware. Specifically, I have dialed up the bass shelf, lowered the peak at 10k and add a little lift to the 1-2k range. The result is the best of all worlds. All the soundstage and transparency that B22 provides with tremendous bass slam, sweet mid and easy to listen treble. Yes, I realize this is sort of "cheating" but the result is the best headphone I have ever heard. 
  
 For those with Linn DS, I am using the "Space Optimization" feature but customized to generate a Harmon curve based on LCD2f's frequency response.


----------



## coolcat

@chesebert wowww nice tweaking. Great how you've found out.


----------



## tamleo

Does bigger Watt always mean bigger Ampere? Or voltage and current magnitude delivered depends on amp topology? Thanks


----------



## ElDibujante

In my country only get the FIIO E17k, it will be enough to connect to Audize LC2?


----------



## Lohb

eldibujante said:


> In my country only get the FIIO E17k, it will be enough to connect to Audize LC2?


 

 At that size and price zone try and get a Cayin C5 amp even used price and pick up a separate DAC unit.
 Cayin C5 is a small wonder for its price, slightly on the warm tubey side of things.


----------



## taxiq

Have been running the 2's through a tube pre with 6sn7's to a First Watt F3 with considerable success especially in opening the high end to something approaching an HE6.
  
  
 edit: typo


----------



## Lohb

taxiq said:


> Have been running the 2's through a tube pre with 6sn7's to a First Watt F3 with considerable success especially in opening the high end to something approaching an HE6.
> 
> 
> edit: typo


 

 Nice, I have something similar planned. Tube pre into a fully balanced amp....dial the tubes until I get what I'm looking for. Wider sound-stage/raise the treble.


----------



## hernandoco

eldibujante said:


> In my country only get the FIIO E17k, it will be enough to connect to Audize LC2?


 
  
 I have a FIIO E17 (the original one) and it works just fine for portable use with the LCD2.2.


----------



## Jim Dickson

the lcd 2 sound wonderful with tube amps!!!​


----------



## oAmadeuso

jim dickson said:


> the lcd 2 sound wonderful with tube amps!!!​



Agreed, the Lyr2 and some NOS tubes are a match in heaven with the Lcd-2's.


----------



## coolcat

I used to own the Minute EL34 amp pairing with LCD2.1 and LCD2 2.2 , I used the el34 telefunken and Mulard XF1 tubes , the sound is so great, if I want to listen to some fast pace music I used the telefunken, for vocal I reached for the Mulard.
 By the way if you want to spare some money from the tubes (both cost me 300$ per pair) , please try the M3 amp. It matches so well, I dont think the M3 amp is inferior to my El34 amp.
 But if you have enough money go for the 300B, I think the sound is in another level (might be overkill though concerning the price of the amps and 300B tube)


----------



## JBal4

Has anyone tried the Grace m9xx with the lcd-2?


----------



## jodgey4

I did with my LCD-2.2F. Perfect amount of power and detail . Pretty crisp sound overall.


----------



## mammal

I very much prefer m9xx to Mojo when it comes to LCD-2 and LCD-3, definitely enough power for me.


----------



## JBal4

I just grabbed a little tube amp the other day so I'm going to see how well that does. thanks for the info on the m9xx


----------



## dermott

I have a set of pre-Fazor, 50 Ohm LCD-2 and am looking for a balanced SS amp. I have a Yulong DA8 MK1 DAC that will feed the amp. I am looking at the Schiit Ragnarok and the Violectric V280. Any thoughts on these amps for the particular cans? The V280 is newer, so not really finding much by way of reviews or impressions.


----------



## Lohb

mammal said:


> I very much prefer m9xx to Mojo when it comes to LCD-2 and LCD-3, definitely enough power for me.


 

 Yes, MOJO seems to work best with IEMs and dynamic cans under $800....


----------



## cjc

The  Musical fidelity X-cans V2 with the Audeze LCD-2F is a nice match. I just put in some NOS tubes from Russia that sound surprising good. Hard to tell if it is any better yet than my Asgard 2.


----------



## kashmiami

I recently bought the LCD 2.2, I don't have an amp yet.
 Even without the amp, listening to it from the laptop--they sound incredible. better than the Grado 225's I had.[execept mids]
 2 questions.
 1)Do I need an amp, if I do-- can anyone reccomend a portable amp.
 2)Some of the female singer voices are in background when compared to male & the mids are a tad bit recessed. Are these actual issues or are they due to a lack of amp. I do not want to return these back if I can figure out these issues. I love the bass.
 Thanks in advance for your time.


----------



## Alchemist007

Sounds like a prefazor. It helps to have a more revealing dac/amp. The GE 6dj8 tube running from a Project Ember helped female vocal revelation but it's still noticeable say compared to other headphones. I think a fazor model would be a step up in that regard specifically, assuming it's not a fazor 2.2 already.


----------



## desik

alchemist007 said:


> Sounds like a prefazor. It helps to have a more revealing dac/amp. The GE 6dj8 tube running from a Project Ember helped female vocal revelation but it's still noticeable say compared to other headphones. I think a fazor model would be a step up in that regard specifically, assuming it's not a fazor 2.2 already.


 

 I don't recommend switching to fazor. Completely different headphones. Especially for a bass-lover. I don't have any issues with female voices on LCD-2.1, but never tried them unamped. Evanescence/Nightwish - all sound wonderful.


----------



## Lohb

desik said:


> I don't recommend switching to fazor. Completely different headphones. Especially for a bass-lover. I don't have any issues with female voices on LCD-2.1, but never tried them unamped. Evanescence/Nightwish - all sound wonderful.


 

 2.1 un-amped, oh no.


----------



## kashmiami

Thanks for folks who responded.
 Obviously, a newbies question here..but, 50 percent of my desktop volume is too loud for me. I am curious why I need an amp at all, I understand the DAC part, but not the amp. Can anyone please refer me to an article or something which explains this in a lucid manner. Thanks!


----------



## Lohb

kashmiami said:


> Thanks for folks who responded.
> Obviously, a newbies question here..but, 50 percent of my desktop volume is too loud for me. I am curious why I need an amp at all, I understand the DAC part, but not the amp. Can anyone please refer me to an article or something which explains this in a lucid manner. Thanks!


 

 Amps are not just about loudness, it is also about the quality of the sound presentation at different volume levels.
 Quality amps performing well below their peak limit usually offer better low-end control/presence, dynamics, sound-stage, micro-detail.
 They also have a unique overall tonality....from cool/dry along the sliding scale lush/rich.
 Paired right, they can also give the various deficiencies of various headphones an 'audio repair' towards YOUR target overall SQ preference.


----------



## Steve Wilcox

kashmiami said:


> I recently bought the LCD 2.2, I don't have an amp yet.
> Even without the amp, listening to it from the laptop--they sound incredible. better than the Grado 225's I had.[execept mids]
> 2 questions.
> 1)Do I need an amp, if I do-- can anyone reccomend a portable amp.
> ...


 
 I bought a Chord Mojo for portable/computer use but its finished up replacing my Schiit Asgard in my main system and sounds fantastic with my LCD2Fs.  You do need a digital signal but it has optical, coaxial and USB options.  Don't let its diminutive size fool you - it's got bags of power and its digital to analogue conversation puts the sound out from a laptop, PC or phone into the same league as set ups costing serious money.  If you've been using the headphone out from a laptop you're likely to be amazed by the sound quality you can get via the Mojo - just make sure you're using uncompressed files to get the most from it.
  
 I very much much doubt you'll have any of the problems you describe via the Mojo.  I'm finding the Mojo/LCD2F coupling wonderful from any source.


----------



## ruddypulido

Hey guys... First post here...
  
 I am considering buying LCD-2 but I am in big doubt about the amp...
  
 My main source is from Vinyl of my dedicated stereo system ( PM6004 + Pro-Ject Debut III ).
  
 At first I was convinced to go with a Gustard H10. But lately, after some reviews, I have start to thinking about the micro iDSD. 
  
 Although my main focus is my stereo system it would be nice to have a portable amp/dac that I could take with me on travel, or even to another room and use with my laptop or iPhone.
  
 So, I have some questions and wanna see if you help me.
  
 Will I be missing something in terms of sound quality / capability going micro iDSD instead of H10 ?
  
 In terms of power, how the two compare ?
  
 As far as I could see, to use the micro iDSD I will need an RCA from my stereo out to 3.5mm in the iDSD. Are there any loss of quality going this route ? Will I be able to charge the iDSD while using it through the 3.5mm input ?
  
 Another possibility would be both a Gustard H10 and a small AMP/DAC like nano iDSD ou DragonFly, but I don't know if these ones can drive satisfactory the LCD-2.
  
 I don't know if it makes any difference but, about 80% of my listening is extreme metal.
  
 Thanks a lot for the help !
  
 Updated: JDS Labs The Element or some schiit may also be an option


----------



## catspaw

To be honest, I found that even portable amps do a decent job on headphones.
  
 I have used 3 amps: Fiio E17, Fiio E12 and Asgard 1.
 Tested on HE-400 and HD600.
  
 When comparing the sound from the mp3 alone (Cowon i9) to the Fiio E17, there was a substantial difference, mostly in bass.
 However, from there to E12 and Asgard 1 the difference was small. I had to A/B, other way it was way too similar, and we are talking of 250 mW (into 16 Ohm) on the E17 to 1 W (on 50 Ohm) on the asgard.
  
 When going from cowon i9 to bifrost multibit, the volume went up nuts (on the asgard), and I went from listening at 70-80% of volume to 50%.
  
 In other words, unless the Amp is of poor quality, Id assume that the LCD-2 will be driven well with anything that has close to 1 W (how well it will synergize is another thing at all, since thats sound signature and that is subjective).
  
 I can confirm however that Valhalla is NOT a good option for planar as my HE-400 on it did not have good volume, dynamics or even detail for that matter (of, no bass).
  
 When I did listen to the LCD-2.2 Fazor it was on a Burson Soloist (the 4W version) but from the cowon i9. It sounded very good and quite loud on max volume (after I discovered the massive change of volume when using the Bifrost multibit as source with the asgard 1, my rough estimation is that the asgard will be enough for the LCD-2.2 fazor, but its an estimation).
  
  
 Dont know if this helps much... .


----------



## BassDigger

Let's say that I have a penchant for Chinese equipment; like the ever increasing number of clones, or near clones, and the original Chinese designed stuff.
  
 I'm looking to upgrade my Gustard H10 (a dual transformered V200 clone) that has been performing quite well powering some LCD2Fs.
  
 I was originally going to commit to a Chinese made Beta 22. But, reading back earlier in the thread, there seems to be consensus that a Krell KSA5 clone is even better than the B22.
  
 As for my sound preferences: after listening to my set-up for the first time in 6 months, I found that the sound is quite detail-forward; a little bright. This was my first impression, compared to my perception of both real sound, and familiar old recordings. This, I expect, is the character of the fazored lcd2. So, I'm definitely not looking for a 'bright' sounding amp; a little warmer/fuller sound would be preferential.
  
 Out of the the known Chinese contenders, I'm looking at B22 and KSA5 clones. But, the better looking versions of these are getting into Audio-GD territory, in price; a fairly established and reputable brand. So, maybe I should also consider the Audiogd C2 (or NFB-1; I could go balanced). If reliability was a concern, I guess this would be my choice. But it's not; SQ is the No.1 priority here!
  
 Here are some pics of some contenders:
  
*KSA5*
  


  
  
*B22*
  


  
  
*Audio-GD C2* (NFB1)
  

  
  
 If anyone has made comparisons (with anything), has any feedback, or has a better (Chinese sourced) suggestion, your input would be much appreciated.


----------



## Lohb

bassdigger said:


> Let's say that I have a penchant for Chinese equipment; like the ever increasing number of clones, or near clones, and the original Chinese designed stuff.
> 
> I'm looking to upgrade my Gustard H10 (a dual transformered V200 clone) that has been performing quite well powering some LCD2Fs.
> 
> ...


 

 Is the one with water bottle on top also a B22 clone ? Link ?


----------



## BassDigger

> Originally Posted by *Lohb* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


 
  
 The 2 box model?


----------



## BassDigger

lohb said:


> Is the one with water bottle on top also a B22 clone ? Link ?


 
  
 Yeah. She's real purrrdy. Ain't she? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 (Although it also demonstrates Chinese style awareness of potential hazards; to be comfortable with placing a bottle of water on top of a live/connected electrical device!? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




!)
  
 The first four:
  
 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.14.39.Hygqol&id=524853281211&ns=1&abbucket=14
  
 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.14.16.CEP6lR&id=39835698285&ns=1&abbucket=14
  
 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.14.150.rtT3wf&id=528663465664&ns=1&abbucket=14
  
 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.14.26.rtT3wf&id=12588170899&ns=1&abbucket=14


----------



## GrindingThud

If you go KSA5 clone, make sure you use one sourced from the KG board design like you show in the zero zone link...the others are not the same. The KG KSA5 clone is one of my favorite builds.


----------



## BassDigger

DIY, unfortunately, is not for me (I won't entertain you with the list of reasons why not). And besides, isn't this one of the best things about Chinese hifi; cheap labour? And that ZeroZone ksa5 looks quite tasty. But I know that looks don't tell the whole story; I was wondering how it reeeally compares to the others.
  
 I'm glad that you like the building of the KG ksa5. But actually, I'm sure that it was your comment, earlier in the thread, that extolled the virtues of the ksa5's sq. Can you please give some more details, impressions or comparisons? (Like, what's the balance? Is it slightly detail forward, or warm and weighty?)


----------



## Kumabro

Anyone got any recommendations for an amp which is good at electronica/rock?


----------



## deafdoorknob

kumabro said:


> Anyone got any recommendations for an amp which is good at electronica/rock?




Violectric V-series 
Chord Mojo (portable solution with DAC)
Schiit Magni 2 Uber (budget solution)
Audeze Deckard 

in my experience, despite being a resistive load, LCD 2 tend to benefit from amps with highish (40 and up) damping factor, could be due to the size of the planar itself.


----------



## BassDigger

deafdoorknob said:


> Violectric V-series
> Chord Mojo (portable solution with DAC)
> Schiit Magni 2 Uber (budget solution)
> Audeze Deckard
> ...


 
  
 Oh no! That would mean that I have the same curse with finding a good headphone amp, as I do finding a the right amp for my transmission line speakers; damping factor, to control the movement of the driver (especially for deep bass), being a key factor.
  
 I too like electronica and rock, and your suggestion of Violectric makes sense to me; the Gustard H10 is based on the V200, and i noticed a very significant tightening of the bass, when i got it.
  
 Although your theory, about the size (mass?) of the planar driver, doesn't make so much sense; i thought that planar diaphragms were supposed to be very light, and low inertia; that's why they're so fast sounding; they shouldn't need much 'controlling', when compared to a higher mass dynamic driver.
 But, saying that, maybe it's the configuration of the magnet/voice 'coil' interaction that is the planar's weakness; hence the need for a bit of power to get the best out of them. Yeah. That must be it. Makes sense to me, now.
  
 But nonetheless, it's observations, not explanations, that matter. I've always found it very difficult to know the damping factor of full size amps, never mind headphone amps! How do you find out?


----------



## Amish

I've used a number of amps with these cans. Polaris, Ember, Ember II, BHA-1, HK3490, Onkyo, SONY, Pioneer, etc...
  
 I have now found that feeding this headphone with crazy watts does it wonders. I'm running it off a Maggie 8802 amp off the speaker taps which provide 12 watts per channel via a HiFiMan HE adapter and the LCD-2f is a whole new beast. Damn.


----------



## BassDigger

amish said:


> I've used a number of amps with these cans. Polaris, Ember, Ember II, BHA-1, HK3490, Onkyo, SONY, Pioneer, etc...
> 
> I have now found that feeding this headphone with crazy watts does it wonders. I'm running it off a Maggie 8802 amp off the speaker taps which provide 12 watts per channel via a HiFiMan HE adapter and the LCD-2f is a whole new beast. Damn.


 
  






 Tell me more! Please! Tell me more! What about the bass? What does 12 watts do for the bass reproduction of the lcd2f? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I'm not (yet) planning on getting a 12watt amp. But, I am 'saving' (read 'softening up the wife') for a Krell klone, which is supposed to have about 8 watts output.
  
 It's always interesting to read about the effects of 'excess' power; especially when there are those who quote sensitivity and power equations, and insist that a nanowatt (or something like that) is more than ample.


----------



## ToroFiestaSol

bassdigger said:


> Let's say that I have a penchant for Chinese equipment; like the ever increasing number of clones, or near clones, and the original Chinese designed stuff.
> 
> I'm looking to upgrade my Gustard H10 (a dual transformered V200 clone) that has been performing quite well powering some LCD2Fs.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Just avoid the hustle, NFB-1AMP is perfect for LCD-2, and uses higher quality parts than any of the amps you listed, fully balanced, zero feedback and class A.
 The difference between Master 9 and NFB-1AMP is that almost 3 watts of 8 in NFB-AMP at 40ohm are pure class A, and once passed that limit it switchs to class A/B to provide more power. Master 9 has 6 of 9w at pure class A, that's the reason of why it is like 3 times bigger with only 1 more W of power.
 With LCD-2, it can take 4w at 70ohm (NFB-1AMP has 5w of power at 70ohm), but that's the maximum they can take, way less power is used 99% of ocasions, so NFB-1AMP will run LCD-2 in pure class A almost all the time. NFB-1AMP is overkill and will drive 95% of headphones out there in pure class A.


----------



## BassDigger

torofiestasol said:


> Just avoid the hustle, NFB-1AMP is perfect for LCD-2, and uses higher quality parts than any of the amps you listed, fully balanced, zero feedback and class A.
> The difference between Master 9 and NFB-1AMP is that almost 3 watts of 8 in NFB-AMP at 40ohm are pure class A, and once passed that limit it switchs to class A/B to provide more power. Master 9 has 6 of 9w at pure class A, that's the reason of why it is like 3 times bigger with only 1 more W of power.
> With LCD-2, it can take 4w at 70ohm (NFB-1AMP has 5w of power at 70ohm), but that's the maximum they can take, way less power is used 99% of ocasions, so NFB-1AMP will run LCD-2 in pure class A almost all the time. NFB-1AMP is overkill and will drive 95% of headphones out there in pure class A.


 
  
 Yeah, I am indeed sorely tempted by the A-gd products. They really are quite comprehensive in their connections, and features. And it's interesting to know that, most of the time, most of the power will be class A (although I still don't understand the technicalities, of this).
 Also, it's good that these A-gd amps have plenty of power: I'm a believer in 'excess' power: nomatter what the maths says, I still believe that amps need reserves, to really control a transducer.
  
 Although, one concern still remains: this regards the bass; I'm not sure that A-gd amps have much damping factor. I know this, because Kingwa told me so, when I enquired about one of his integrated amps. It's because of the unique circuit architecture. I've yet to hear one, but it seems like this line of products must be very tube-like, in their characteristics. And a characteristic of tube amps is low DF.
  
 This only really matters for those lowest of notes, and only then if the transducer is capable of reproducing them. But, be it headphones, or loudspeakers, that's what I'm trying to achieve, and that's what Audeze 'phones are supposed to be famous for.


----------



## jodgey4

Class A is the most "pure" amplification. But it's very inefficient and hard to keep low distortion on it, so it's usually found in audiophile gear only. It's supposed to sound more smooth and natural, though I've never really been able to test that myself. My A-GD NFB-28 certainly sounds that way at least, and it's Class A .

 Damping factor has to do with output impedance - most A-GD amps are 2 ohms or less, which IMO, is plenty. That'll keep any frequency response issues/bloating from happening. It otherwise shoudn't affect low frequencies differently from higher ones, especially on planars.


----------



## Lohb

Anyone using the Nelson Pass DIY dual mono amp kit with LCD series cans ?
 http://diyaudiostore.com/products/amp-camp-amp-kit
  
 This amp kit must be amazing for the price.


----------



## BassDigger

jodgey4 said:


> Class A is the most "pure" amplification. But it's very inefficient and hard to keep low distortion on it, so it's usually found in audiophile gear only. It's supposed to sound more smooth and natural, though I've never really been able to test that myself. My A-GD NFB-28 certainly sounds that way at least, and it's Class A .
> 
> Damping factor has to do with output impedance - most A-GD amps are 2 ohms or less, which IMO, is plenty. That'll keep any frequency response issues/bloating from happening. It otherwise shoudn't affect low frequencies differently from higher ones, especially on planars.


 


lohb said:


> Anyone using the Nelson Pass DIY dual mono amp kit with LCD series cans ?
> http://diyaudiostore.com/products/amp-camp-amp-kit
> 
> This amp kit must be amazing for the price.


 
  
 A quote from the 'Amp Camp'-
  
 "_*A Pure "Class A" Design* _
_Most amplifier designs switch transistors on and off causing noise. Class A amplifiers are always operating in their sweet spot, which is why people say they sound "silky smooth"._"
  
I guess the transistors spend more time in the 'on' position; that's why class A amps run hotter, and use more juice.
  
The ACA kit looks like an interesting headphone amp. I'm not convinced that it would be much use for the combination of rock and electronica, plus some transmission line speakers. But, if I lived in the US, I'd probably give it go, just for headphones.
  
I'm still trying (and probably will never manage) to get my head around the differences between driving planar and dynamic diaphragms, as far as amping is concerned.
  
Planar diaphragms have less mass (inertia): it takes less physical force to get them to move, and less to control that movement. So, maybe damping factor is less of an issue.
  
 But, that's just the physical aspect. The other part is the amp's ability to effect the driver. And planars, with their (struggling here!) circuit track(?) in the diaphragm, and magnet array, are less efficient, electrically speaking. This effects the amps ability to manage the movement of the driver.
  
 So, dynamic drivers = electrically efficient - more mass/inertia (to overcome)
       Planar drivers = electrically inefficient - less mass
  
I've noticed that planar 'phones sound fast and tend to really hit the beginning of a (bass) note, but can then sometimes lose some oomph. e.g. Planars go 'THump', or 'KIck'; whereas dynamics go 'tHUMp' and 'kICk'. (if that makes any sense.) Planars really produce the initial impact of the note, very well.
  
This would suggest that the amp can get the driver moving, quite easily enough. But, is then maybe losing some steam, as the less efficient planar circuit track 'voice coil' drains it of its reserves of power. (Does this make sense, to anyone?).
  
If I'm right, then some extra juice, over the 2 watts that the H10 is already capable of, may do something to 'fill out' the lower registers, somewhat. But, it could also have the opposite effect, due to increased control and damping. 




  
 I guess there's only one way to find out.......Audio-GD or ..........???


----------



## ScareDe2

I will not read the 579 pages of this thread but what about the deckard from audeze? Isn't suppose to be the best thing to match audeze headphones such as the LCD2?


----------



## jodgey4

It's got enough power (Class A too), and a clean DAC. It's a very safe choice .


----------



## BassDigger

scarede2 said:


> I will not read the 579 pages of this thread but what about the deckard from audeze? Isn't suppose to be the best thing to match audeze headphones such as the LCD2?




It's a shame that you're so adamant that you "will not" read through the thread. But, with so many pages, it's understandable. However, you could use the search function: it's a bit fiddly to use, but it serves a purpose.


----------



## BassDigger

jodgey4 said:


> It's got enough power (Class A too), and a clean DAC. It's a very safe choice .




TBH, if I didn't already have a good dac, I'd looking getting an A-gd dac/amp solution. But, I'd still probably go for separates, and use their acss connection.
But now, I'm definitely looking at getting a stand-alone amp: if it's an ag-d, then the C2/NFB1. Or otherwise, maybe something more 'experimental'.


----------



## sludgeogre

I think the new Schiit Jotunheim is an insanely attractive choice, with how much crazy power it's capable of, especially balanced. I kinda want one.


----------



## ScareDe2

I am just listening to the LCD2, it's a good sound but I am surprised it doesn't have bigger soundstage than a closed cans like the dt770. I expected more on that end, the bass is OK but could be improved and the imaging is slightly weird. I hope to find a dac/amp that will correct these issues and everything will be perfect.


----------



## sludgeogre

scarede2 said:


> I am just listening to the LCD2, it's a good sound but I am surprised it doesn't have bigger soundstage than a closed cans like the dt770. I expected more on that end, the bass is OK but could be improved and the imaging is slightly weird. I hope to find a dac/amp that will correct these issues and everything will be perfect.




Sometimes people can take a bit to get used to the bass, as they expect a ton of it, but then get addicted to the accuracy and texture of the bass. The headphones should image great, but yeah soundstage isn't actually that good, my closed AKG K550 has a bigger soundstage, but it doesn't sound anywhere near as good. You may be able to improve bass control and power as well as imaging with a more powerful headphone amp. Many people report great things when you increase power. I'm really tempted to get a new amp soon as well.


----------



## BassDigger

scarede2 said:


> I am just listening to the LCD2, it's a good sound but I am surprised it doesn't have bigger soundstage than a closed cans like the dt770. I expected more on that end, the bass is OK but could be improved and the imaging is slightly weird. I hope to find a dac/amp that will correct these issues and everything will be perfect.




Sound-stage? I think that this is an often mentioned 'factor', with planar HPs: it ain't that good. I don't think that it's any wider, with my lcd2f, than with my closed headphones. Although, imaging is in another league.

It also depends on which model (revision) you have: the fazors (apparently) have a very different sound signature, to the pre-fazors, such as improved imaging.

This also includes the bass. Additionally, as Sludgeogre mentioned, the choice of amp can have a profound effect on the bass performance (I have further experiments to make). But generally, the lcd2f could never be labelled as a basshead's phone, unless (unlike me) you're happy to use EQ: planars are supposed to respond, very well, to this!


----------



## Lohb

Going balanced nudges the sound-stage wider and you can use this VST AU plug-in to dial sound-stage if your player support plug-ins...

TB Isone 

http://www.toneboosters.com/tb-isone/


----------



## ScareDe2

Is there anything better than the soloist mk2 below $500?


----------



## sludgeogre

scarede2 said:


> Is there anything better than the soloist mk2 below $500?


 
 Schiit Jotunheim might be pretty stellar, I haven't heard it but the amount of power and control it has could be perfect for the LCD-2. Worth looking into. I really want to hear about the pairing.


----------



## ScareDe2

amish said:


> I've used a number of amps with these cans. Polaris, Ember, Ember II, BHA-1, HK3490, Onkyo, SONY, Pioneer, etc...
> 
> I have now found that feeding this headphone with crazy watts does it wonders. I'm running it off a Maggie 8802 amp off the speaker taps which provide 12 watts per channel via a HiFiMan HE adapter and the LCD-2f is a whole new beast. Damn.


 
  
 Hi, 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 wow you say it sounds better than with the BHA-1? What else than the magnavox 8802 I can get with the HiFIMan HE adaptor to feed those little babies?


----------



## BassDigger

scarede2 said:


> > Quote:
> >
> >
> > amish said:
> ...


 
  
 C'mon @Amish! Spill the beans!!
  
 What differences have you noticed with so much juice powering the LCD2f?


----------



## Amish

bassdigger said:


> C'mon @Amish! Spill the beans!!
> 
> What differences have you noticed with so much juice powering the LCD2f?


 
  
 Sorry I haven't been on lately. I've noticed it gets a heck of a lot louder and stays clean. lol IMO it brightens up slightly too. That might not be liked by some. 
  
 I listen to my music pretty loud (to the point that is most likely bad for me) and with all of my other amps there was always a point where if I went just a little bit louder it started to not sound as good. Looking back I figure this was due to the amps running out of juice but with the extra watts I can push with the Maggie this issue does not happen. They just take it and I have not found the point where the headphones cannot handle it. It's gets louder than what my ears can take and while doing it they sound more open or spacious, very slightly brighter, mids are still lush sounding and bass is tighter. Bass seems really precise. It is hard to explain. In any case the headphones seem to liven up with the extra wattage.
  
 As for the BHA-1, I always thought it was a solid amp but it never excited me. The BHA-1 is one of the most dead silent amps I have heard and IMO it worked wonderfully with my Grado 325is. In fact it actually got to the point that I just didn't want to use the LCD-2 with the BHA-1 and would only use the Grado with it. IMO the BHA-1 (balanced) was the best way to run it with the LCD2 but it never had enough power to satisfy me. I would have the gain adjusted way high to get the output I wanted. To me the Bryston wasn't worth the cost of entry when I found that I would prefer to listen to any of my other amps over it. 
  
 Before I bought the BHA-1 I sold my original Ember amp to help fund it. Within 6 months of owning the Bryston I could not stop thinking about how much more I enjoyed the Ember with the LCD. So I bought another Ember and was very happy that I did.
  
 That's not to say that the BHA-1 is not a fantastic amp but it just didn't excite me like other amps have with the LCD2.
  
 I really enjoy the LCD2 with my Ember II amp and it continues to be one of my favorite combos but I always wished for just a little bit more power, a little bit more volume output and the Maggie has provided that. 
  
 The LCD2 hasn't been changed. It sounds like the LCD2 but it now goes much louder, remains clean sounding and I guess if anything a bit more spacious with very slightly opened up highs.
  
 Little differences that seem to be how the LCD2 should have always been but had it full potential locked away just waiting for some extra power to set it free.
  
  
 I'm not sure what else to say. I've never been great at explaining what i hear well but all I can say is it is the most happy I have been with any amp to date. I haven't thought of buying an amp in the last 2 months....that has got to mean something lol
  
 I think I should be clear on one thing though; I'm a tube guy. I enjoy how it can flavor music. I think if you are a SS guy then the BHA-1 is a fine choice but I also think for less money the SS guy can get the same experience elsewhere. IMO the BHA-1 is overpriced. Sure it is built like a tank, has the best warranty in the business but I feel that you are paying more because of the badge on it. I have compared that amp to multiple amps and came away feeling that my other amps do it just as well. The BHA-1's main thing going for it IMO is how dead silent it is. The only other amp I have that is just as dead silent is my Maggie tube amp and I have to give the builder credit....he made one dead silent tube amp and it is not something I usually expect from anything with tubes. I can crank the volume up to max and hear...nothing. That's good in my book. The other thing the BHA-1 does well is sound neutral. It doesn't color the music at all and some people will prefer that. I like a little color though so... 
  
  
 /edit 9/15/16   I might have to add this one more time. With this extra power these cans get SOOO much louder than with amps like the BHA-1, Ember, Polaris, among others I have on hand. Louder but still clean music. It is quite shocking as I am again listening to this combo as I type and It's shocking the difference when pumping 10+ watts per channel. of course the HiFiman HE-adapter makes this possible. I was for the last half hour running these cans off the Ember II and very much enjoying myself. Then I plugged it into the maggie and my smile increased 10fold. The LCD2 with this much power will get louder and done cleanly than anyone can stand. I'd bet money on it. It's the closest I have come to floor speakers....on my ears. Lush.
  
 I'd like to add that none of my current headphones other than the LCD2 can handle this kinda power. I'm now tempted to look at headphones like the HE-6.


----------



## Loose-Leaf

There's a literal flood of headphone amps on the market however Ag audios master 9 with Audeze line is quite good , I use the HE 9 with Audeze 3f and currently the Audeze 4 .


----------



## Amish

loose-leaf said:


> There's a literal flood of headphone amps on the market however Ag audios master 9 with Audeze line is quite good , I use the HE 9 with Audeze 3f and currently the Audeze 4 .


 

 I can only dream of the Audeze LCD4. Good lord I cannot make myself spend that kinda money on headphones but I can live vicariously through people like you.
  
 Ive played with the LCD3 for a good while as my buddy owns a set and brought them over. TBH the improvement is not enough over my LCD2 to make me consider them but the Audeze4 is another story.


----------



## Loose-Leaf

amish said:


> I can only dream of the Audeze LCD4. Good lord I cannot make myself spend that kinda money on headphones but I can live vicariously through people like you.
> 
> Ive played with the LCD3 for a good while as my buddy owns a set and brought them over. TBH the improvement is not enough over my LCD2 to make me consider them but the Audeze4 is another story.



Hi Amish , I don't mean to come across as smug and please don't take me wrong however there is a good difference between the Audeze 2 Fazor and the 3 Fazor mostly overall refinement of the sonic picture all though is it worth the extra dough ? I would look for slightly used for a discount .

Audeze is still evolving however even with the statement LCD 4 I don't feel it is fully mature yet as there are some issues in the treble . This pair I purchased slightly used at just slightly over a grand off .


----------



## Amish

loose-leaf said:


> Hi Amish , I don't mean to come across as smug and please don't take me wrong however there is a good difference between the Audeze 2 Fazor and the 3 Fazor mostly overall refinement of the sonic picture all though is it worth the extra dough ? I would look for slightly used for a discount .
> 
> Audeze is still evolving however even with the statement LCD 4 I don't feel it is fully mature yet as there are some issues in the treble . This pair I purchased slightly used at just slightly over a grand off .


 
 Yeah I agree that there is a difference between the two. I just don't think the difference is worth upgrading to IMO. I listened to both side by side for a good amount of time. I have not listened to the LCD 4 but I feel that if anything that should provide a big enough jump to warrant the purchase but unfortunately I do not have the dough to make the jump.
  
 Don't get me wrong I am not putting down the LCD 3 I just don't think the differences are worth the higher cost. The LCD 2 does many things right on it's own. Not the perfect headphone but perfectly well suited for me.


----------



## qaminh

Can Ath ha22tube can pair with audeze lcd 2 rev 2.2 as a "temporary amp" ?? I mean can ha22tube sound how much performence of lcd 2?


----------



## Amish

Man....at 12 watts per channel...clean clear and awesome. Am i listening to this combo again? Yes....YES I am.


----------



## Lohb

amish said:


> Man....at 12 watts per channel...clean clear and awesome. Am i listening to this combo again? Yes....YES I am.


 

 Which amp would that be ?


----------



## BassDigger

lohb said:


> Which amp would that be ?


 






 You'll probably have to shout!


----------



## Amish

Don't mind me. I put my LCD's on about once a week and I'm still like a little kid it seems and I get overly excited. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 I was referring to my LCD2 & Magnavox 8802 combo. Maybe I should listen to it more often so I don't get so damn excited lol.


----------



## oqvist

Wow this thread is still alive. Been a happy camper with my Lcd 2 on my modest Yamaha rds-440. I decided I wanted to try my speaker terminals so I unhooked my adapter then realizing it didn't have markings to easilly recognize which connector goes where. I have stock Lcd cable stripped with a red and white on one channel and light red and transparent on the other. Which connectors go to black versus red?


----------



## CarlosUnchained

Anybody tested LCD-2 with the Jot?


----------



## sludgeogre

carlosunchained said:


> Anybody tested LCD-2 with the Jot?


 
 Not I, but have heard amazing things, and I want one.


----------



## Nick727

Anyone know how well the LCD-2 works with Magni2/Modi2? Just ordered b-stock and very excited! Will likely upgrade my amp down the line but for now any idea how the Schiit stack will fare?


----------



## sludgeogre

nick727 said:


> Anyone know how well the LCD-2 works with Magni2/Modi2? Just ordered b-stock and very excited! Will likely upgrade my amp down the line but for now any idea how the Schiit stack will fare?


 
 It sounds fantastic. Go for it.


----------



## Scott Branham

nick727 said:


> Anyone know how well the LCD-2 works with Magni2/Modi2? Just ordered b-stock and very excited! Will likely upgrade my amp down the line but for now any idea how the Schiit stack will fare?


 

 ​Where do you get the b-stock units, Nick?


----------



## Nick727

scott branham said:


> ​Where do you get the b-stock units, Nick?


 
  
 I may have worded that sentence incorrectly. I already own the Magni2/Modi2. The Audeze b-stock sale can be found here: https://www.audeze.com/promotional-products/audeze-black-friday-b-stock-sale


----------



## cuiter23

carlosunchained said:


> Anybody tested LCD-2 with the Jot?


 
  
 Should be a safe route. Can't go wrong with the Schiit.


----------



## Blotto80

So I grabbed a Burson/Supreme Sound Lycan today with the SS5 OpAmp after only using my LCD2.1 through a Dynalo for the last while, these are like a whole new headphone. The bass response and weight has taken a huge leap forward and the overall sound is much more open. I've loved these 2.1s since the first time I heard them but I've been listening with the biggest grin on my face all evening.


----------



## HarryWarner1

Burson Soloist Sl Mk2?


----------



## Blotto80

No, the Lycan. Considerably cheaper and seems to be a great value so far:

http://www.head-fi.org/products/burson-audio-lycan


----------



## Scott Branham

Well, I ended up ordering the Deckard. And since I have no experience with amplifying headphones (always used IEMs) , I'll have absolutely ZERO baseline or frame of reference to judge it buy! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





With all this talk of 8 watts, 12 watts, etc, I'm a little curious with the Deckard being 4 watts, which I do understand will way beyond drive the LCD-2f. I'm also curious how the Deckard will do with d5000 and 770 pro.


----------



## bassaddicted

scott branham said:


> Well, I ended up ordering the Deckard. And since I have no experience with amplifying headphones (always used IEMs) , I'll have absolutely ZERO baseline or frame of reference to judge it buy!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 The difference between 1mW and 1 watt  is only about 30dB. With the LCD-2, that would be about 130dB with 1w. From there, another 4 watts would get you half way to 140dB. They state 15w would get you >130dB, but if their 101dB/1w is accurate, 15w would be over 140dB. That is insane. 
  
 If their specs are correct, you can drive these more than adequately with a tiny cmoy. No need to worry about having gobs of reserve power.


----------



## qaminh

Finally got a LCD 2 Fazor for myself after a long time  I'm looking an amp to pair with it. Now i'm wondering if the Schiit Jotunheim or Audio-gd C2 will be the better choice  A friendly seller ( who sold me the LCD 2 ) adviced me should go with the Jot ( clean power, clean sound ) . But the C2 also have good scale . Both of them can drive Lcd2 well and have the same price. 
 (I also think to use ESS9018 as Chip for the DAC)
 Can anyone give me the advice, what amp should i choose ?


----------



## David Maki

Anyone have any thoughts on powering the LCD-2 with the Jolida Glass FX Tube DAC III?


----------



## jimmyjim

One piece of the Puzzle.
  
 He ya Folks... 
  
 I just received my LCD-2 headphones...  I have not had any decent stereo equipment since I bought a Pioneer Receiver a CD-player  and 4 loudspeakers at the age of 16. Worked that whole summer in a hot factory and after those 2 months were up I payed the Audio man in cash for this system... Did it sound good who knows... I had the thing blasting when ever I had it on, but I sure did love it. 
  
 Now without any Stereo equipment for over 13 years and listening to some pretty awesome set ups from friends family ect I thought maybe it's time I throw away my no name book shelves speakers  that sit on my PC desk.  I do have a question regarding amps is the AMPS goal to make it like there was no amp even there?  What I am saying is if I am looking for the most realistic sound that the medium was released as would it make sense to pick the most Neutral Amp?   One that does not add anything or take anything away as much as possible...
  
 Reason I am asking is I want a AMP that will not make my Cans different. I do not want rounded bass mids this highs that... I do not want my AMP to do nothing but power my Cans.. If a song lacks bass then it lacked bass. Not by my AMP but it just had bad bass.. Not sure if I am even making sense. What I am looking for is a AMP that tries do stay in the background and I never even think about it Ever...      
  
 Thanks a lot guy's I spent a lot and I mean a lot of hours reading this forum and thought after grabbing my Cans I could finally join in
  
 My budget would be 500 max for both a DAC and AMP. Size does not matter.   Hope to get a few suggestions. I got my Cans. I need the Rest..... Peace and Love from Canada


----------



## cuiter23

qaminh said:


> Finally got a LCD 2 Fazor for myself after a long time  I'm looking an amp to pair with it. Now i'm wondering if the Schiit Jotunheim or Audio-gd C2 will be the better choice  A friendly seller ( who sold me the LCD 2 ) adviced me should go with the Jot ( clean power, clean sound ) . But the C2 also have good scale . Both of them can drive Lcd2 well and have the same price.
> (I also think to use ESS9018 as Chip for the DAC)
> Can anyone give me the advice, what amp should i choose ?


 
  
 I prefer the look of the Jot more. AGD stuff looks honestly horrid.


----------



## Steve Wilcox

jimmyjim said:


> One piece of the Puzzle.
> 
> He ya Folks...
> 
> ...


 
 I don't think there's really a simple answer to your question.  If your cans and DAC are exactly as you like them you probably don't want an amp to add its own flavour to the mix.  But if, for example, your DAC is on the bright side, you might want an amp to warm things up a bit.  Synergy is the thing.
  
 I'm using a Chord MOJO in my HiFi rig with my LCD2s and couldn't be happier.  This doesn't have a separate amp as such but provides more than enough power for the LCD2s (and all but a few particularly power hungry cans).  It's been compared favourably to DACs costing several thousand £ and has the added advantage that you can use it portibly if you want.  Possibly slightly over your budget if bought new but really worth pushing the boat out for if you can.


----------



## jimmyjim

Thank you Steve for your reply... 
 My headphones are sitting proudly on my desk. I have no DAC or AMP yet. I am a fresh start. I am willing to spend after careful thought to bring my total budget to 750.00  This site is pretty amazing.. I feel out of my league in terms of gear and wallet size but I am just happy I can soon hear music that is gonna sound SWEET 
  
 Thanks again Steve


----------



## jimmyjim

Well I did it.... After many many hours of searching the web for a Amp/DAC I have decided to pick up a JDS Element.
  
 Then the only thing I will have left to decide is what will be the very First song I will listen to......I am thinking Brothers in Arms by Dire Straights...  Question when you first got your Cans set up what was your Very First song you played on it...
  
 Anyway's I have to shout out to Head-Fi and the forums... You have all been a big help.......


----------



## ceiji

I recently bought an LCD-2 and have an Oppo HA-2. Is Oppo HA-2 sufficient or should I upgrade?


----------



## darkninja67

jimmyjim said:


> Well I did it.... After many many hours of searching the web for a Amp/DAC I have decided to pick up a JDS Element.
> 
> Then the only thing I will have left to decide is what will be the very First song I will listen to......I am thinking Brothers in Arms by Dire Straights...  Question when you first got your Cans set up what was your Very First song you played on it...
> 
> Anyway's I have to shout out to Head-Fi and the forums... You have all been a big help.......


 
 Brothers In Arms is one of the first songs I use when I first get a new pair of cans. Great song.


----------



## Amish

ceiji said:


> I recently bought an LCD-2 and have an Oppo HA-2. Is Oppo HA-2 sufficient or should I upgrade?


 

 I'd upgrade. I'm sure it sounds fine but more power sounds better with these cans IMHO.
  
 I have found success using a 2 watt per channel amp or more with these myself. I'm currently powering them off an amp that is capable of 12 watts per channel and they sound amazing.
  
  
 Anyways...sure it will power them and I'm sure you will be happy. Only upgrade if you feel the cans are lacking due to the amp. if you are happy that is all that matters.


----------



## marcan

I think that a powerfull amp is necessary to fully get the marvelous sound of the LCD2. Particularly the sub bass content will require a lot of headroom in order to be perfectly reproduced.
 The LCD2 having one of the best sub on the market it would be sad to not fully get them.


----------



## WayTooCrazy

I just picked up the LCD-2F from the Black Friday "B" stock sale. I have the Modi2U w/Vali 2 and it sounds nice. I was just thinking it may need more power to push it. So, I'm saving my pennies to get something nicer in the beginning of the summer (in my family... right after the holidays begin the birthdays till summer, ugh). I was heavily leaning towards an Oppo HA-1, but due to the fact I won't be looking to actually purchase till the summer, I'm sure more DAC/Amps will be introduced in that time period.
  
 Though, I was looking at the NuPrime uDSD as, it looks nice (though would end up attached to my laptop in my bedroom for evening listening).
  
 NVM, the uDSD doesn't have enough power.


----------



## ceiji

Between Schiit Jotunheim, Audeze Deckard and Alo Pan Am, which do you think will pair nicely with Audeze LCD-2? I currently have Oppo-HA2 and am thinking of upgrading to a decent desktop setup. I have not tried any of these and do not have any retailers nearby to demo these. Any inputs are really appreciated.


----------



## Bubblejuice

Has anyone been able to compare the differences between the Audeze Deckard, Shiit Lyr 2 w/ decent DAC, and Jotunheim with the LCD-2s?
  
 I have an O2 amp connected and i'm feeling it lacking fullness/sound-stage compared to when I tried it on a Deckard. Also, the vocals come from above me now, but with the deckard they came from the front?


----------



## eruditass

Will my SOHA II (Super SE Hybrid) be sufficient for the LCD-2f's? 

  

They were adequate for my AKG Q701 and Beyerdynamic DT880 600 Ohms, though as I understand it the LCD-2fs are low impdance and current hungry, like a much more extreme Q701.  My amp is a hybrid, but is it enough?


----------



## WayTooCrazy

Ok, so say I wanted to bring my headphones to friends/family's houses and let them try them out (yes, I have some Music appreciators...but they're more speaker than anything). If I were to take along an amp (and either run from my portable device or laptop), which should it be? I was thinking a Woo Audio WA8, a Mojo, Hugo, or a few others. The restriction is, it has to be under $2k. I'm looking to purchase come spring time.


----------



## jimmyjim

Update... Went to a friends house who has a Pair of LCD-2's. 
 He had me plug my cans into a Emotiva DC-1 and I am now selling my Element.
 I had no idea a full size amp would pair well with Cans.. I am not sure about the amp and DAC specs on the Emotiva but wow the difference was night and day... Is this because of the Power of Emotiva or is there something else in play.?


----------



## WayTooCrazy

jimmyjim said:


> Update... Went to a friends house who has a Pair of LCD-2's.
> He had me plug my cans into a Emotiva DC-1 and I am now selling my Element.
> I had no idea a full size amp would pair well with Cans.. I am not sure about the amp and DAC specs on the Emotiva but wow the difference was night and day... Is this because of the Power of Emotiva or is there something else in play.?


 

 As I understand it, the Element is a pretty Odac in a nice case. I had one for under 2 weeks, sold it and picked up a Modi2U/Vali2 and was much happier with that setup. Now I'm looking to move up again. The DC-1 is a nice price. It is right in-line with the Jotunheim though.


----------



## bassaddicted

jimmyjim said:


> Update... Went to a friends house who has a Pair of LCD-2's.
> He had me plug my cans into a Emotiva DC-1 and I am now selling my Element.
> I had no idea a full size amp would pair well with Cans.. I am not sure about the amp and DAC specs on the Emotiva but wow the difference was night and day... Is this because of the Power of Emotiva or is there something else in play.?




By full size amp, are you referring to the enotiva mini-x?


----------



## joed83

im interested in trying to use the speaker terminals of a power amp and have the possibility to use a spare Linn LK 85 or 100 or 140 (http://docs.linn.co.uk/wiki/images/3/39/Lk85_lk140_info.pdf and http://docs.linn.co.uk/wiki/images/7/7f/Lk100_user_manl.PDF)
  
 i have the LK100 in front of me now and im very tempted to chop off the 1/8 jack and solder on some banana plugs and give it a go, would that be advisable? alternatively i can grab a hifiman adapter today as there is a shop close by that has a few


----------



## jimmyjim

I am referring to the Emotiva stealth dc-1. This thing rocked my socks off.. It blew me away compared to my Element, I am just curious if there are bad specs on it somewhere. The stealth must have something sub par in it for the price no?  I am just shocked that this product has not blown up on the headphone forums.. Would love to hear comparisons on specs and sound vs other products under 500 bucks..
  
 If anyone is looking for a Balanced headphone system I would check it out.. Do not be like me and BUY something that paled in comparison.
 I have to give a shout out to my work friend Steve he introduced me to the  product. Also to all of you for all your insightful and enthusiastic
 discussions regarding matching up are Glorious CANS....    
  
 Peace my friends.. I hope you find your PERFECT match that is right for you...
  
  
  
 Merry XMAS to me


----------



## WayTooCrazy

I'm trying to decide between Jotunheim or Oppo HA-1. I'm not sure i need all the features of the Oppo. Just looking for great sound from my LCD-2f and future LCD-XC. I will be using USB input. Thoughts?


----------



## Bubblejuice

waytoocrazy said:


> I'm trying to decide between Jotunheim or Oppo HA-1. I'm not sure i need all the features of the Oppo. Just looking for great sound from my LCD-2f and future LCD-XC. I will be using USB input. Thoughts?


 

 Personally, i've still found that the Audeze Deckard is my favorite Amp/Dac for my LCD-2f.


----------



## WayTooCrazy

bubblejuice said:


> Personally, i've still found that the Audeze Deckard is my favorite Amp/Dac for my LCD-2f.


 
 Have you tried either of the others?  The feature set of the HA-1 draws my eye, but if I were to be honest with myself, that is better as a Headphone amp/pre-amp to a 2.1 channel system. If I'm sitting at my 2.1 system, then I'm not listening to headphones... but my speakers in near-field configuration. That is why, I think the Jotunheim might be my best bet. I have not really have privy to listen to the Deckard with the LCD-2f, but I have briefly with the EL-8... and at the time, was not impressed with either (I was running the HE-400i out of a Vali 2). With that being said, I don't know if I'd want to pony up for the extra $$$ for the Deckard over the Jotunheim (which I have not heard).
  
 Right now I'm using a Micca Origen+, and it does drive the LCD-2f with authority... but somewhat blandly. I've decided on Audeze as "my" brand of headphones so I need to find an amp that will synergize with their full lineup (as I intend to get the LCD-XC and possibly others).


----------



## Bubblejuice

waytoocrazy said:


> Have you tried either of the others?  The feature set of the HA-1 draws my eye, but if I were to be honest with myself, that is better as a Headphone amp/pre-amp to a 2.1 channel system. If I'm sitting at my 2.1 system, then I'm not listening to headphones... but my speakers in near-field configuration. That is why, I think the Jotunheim might be my best bet. I have not really have privy to listen to the Deckard with the LCD-2f, but I have briefly with the EL-8... and at the time, was not impressed with either (I was running the HE-400i out of a Vali 2). With that being said, I don't know if I'd want to pony up for the extra $$$ for the Deckard over the Jotunheim (which I have not heard).
> 
> Right now I'm using a Micca Origen+, and it does drive the LCD-2f with authority... but somewhat blandly. I've decided on Audeze as "my" brand of headphones so I need to find an amp that will synergize with their full lineup (as I intend to get the LCD-XC and possibly others).


 

 I have not unfortunately. I've only tried 4 amps with them. The O2, Deckard, Lyr 2, some really expensive amp whose name I can't remember ($3,000 range).
  
 I've heard good things about the HA-1. Most people seem to start off with that one with the LCD-2s as far as I can tell.
  
 I've also heard good things about  the Jotunheim. I hear it's better with the Bifrost than it's internal DAC, but the internal should do fine usually.
  
 I tried the Deckard with the EL-8 also. I was also not impressed. Not by the Deckard, but by the EL-8. Maybe they are not good with that amp, but the LCD-2f definitely are. At least to me. I think it would be to your advantage to find a way to listen to a Deckard with your pair, considering you'll be spending a few hundred on an amp/dac regardless. The Deckard I think should only be like $100-200 more than the Jot with a DAC.
  
 Yeah I get you, and I agree. I am in the same place, though I may be looking at some HD-650s in the future too. Definitely take a look at the Deckard if you get the chance. The only amp I can tell you I straight up did not like was the Lyr 2. Maybe it was tubes they had or something, but they just didn't resonate well with me. The Deckard was perfect synergy so far, but I've not had the pleasure to try the Jotunheim. I'm currently using the O2 with no DAC.


----------



## Ashah

bubblejuice said:


> Personally, i've still found that the Audeze Deckard is my favorite Amp/Dac for my LCD-2f.


 
 I 2nd this and agree , still testing the Ly2, /modi uber , Audeze Deckard and Peachtree Nova 150 among the 3 I still prefer the Deckard


----------



## WayTooCrazy

ashah said:


> I 2nd this and agree , still testing the Ly2, /modi uber , Audeze Deckard and Peachtree Nova 150 among the 3 I still prefer the Deckard




I have to agree now as well. I went to my local BestBuy Magnolia and tried it, and the McIntosh MHA100. The Mac was very nice, but out of my price range for now. The Deckard sounded fantastic. So, i ordered a lightly used one through eBay.


----------



## daddyo1973

Count me in as a happy camper using the Schiit Jotunheim / LCD-2 combo.  Real nice upgrade over my Leckerton UHA 6S MkII and Audioquest Dragon Fly Red.  
  
 I may try and experiment in the future with using the Dragon Fly as a DAC into the Jotunheim just to see how the DAC sections compare.


----------



## parttimelovah

Has anyone used a supremesound lycan (http://www.ssaudio.com.au/lycan-op-amp-test-bench/) amp for their LCD-2s? I found a new one for a pretty good price (nearly 140 off retail) with the v5 opamps, i would likely just keep it as it is and none of the opamp rolling stuff. I was just going to save for a deckard/jotunheim, but this is pretty interesting and for the discount I found I'm willing to potentially give it a shot. Upgrading from a magni 2


----------



## WayTooCrazy

The Emotiva is still quite interesting, and I may purchase it to try out.
 https://emotiva.com/products/amplifiers/100


----------



## Blotto80

parttimelovah said:


> Has anyone used a supremesound lycan (http://www.ssaudio.com.au/lycan-op-amp-test-bench/) amp for their LCD-2s? I found a new one for a pretty good price (nearly 140 off retail) with the v5 opamps, i would likely just keep it as it is and none of the opamp rolling stuff. I was just going to save for a deckard/jotunheim, but this is pretty interesting and for the discount I found I'm willing to potentially give it a shot. Upgrading from a magni 2




I've got one and to pretty kickass with my 2.1s and my 2.2s. Huge upgrade over my Dynalo.


----------



## Blotto80

So I loved the Lycan so much that when the opportunity came up, I grabbed a Soloist and WOW!!! This thing takes the LCD2 to another level. The soundstage has opened up well beyond what I could have expected. I'm pretty convinced that this is the perfect match for the LCD2.  If anyone wants to try the Lycan I've got it posted the the classified forum.


----------



## tbxmar

This may be a silly question (I'm fairly new to the technical aspects of headphones and headphone amps), but I'm hoping someone can help since I've searched around quite a bit and couldn't find something that touched on this precisely.
  
 Is the Woo WA7 w/ WA7tp powerful enough to drive the Audeze LCD-2 headphone to full capability/performance? I understand that the optimal power range for the LCD-2 as specified by Audeze is 1-4W (and they're a 70 ohms impedance headphone). The WA7 is specified to have a *max* output of 1W @ 32 ohms. So, I'm curious if the WA7 is enough to feed the power hungry LCD-2, especially since the WA7 is beautiful and I'd love to have it.


----------



## hernandoco

tbxmar said:


> This may be a silly question (I'm fairly new to the technical aspects of headphones and headphone amps), but I'm hoping someone can help since I've searched around quite a bit and couldn't find something that touched on this precisely.
> 
> Is the Woo WA7 w/ WA7tp powerful enough to drive the Audeze LCD-2 headphone to full capability/performance? I understand that the optimal power range for the LCD-2 as specified by Audeze is 1-4W (and they're a 70 ohms impedance headphone). The WA7 is specified to have a *max* output of 1W @ 32 ohms. So, I'm curious if the WA7 is enough to feed the power hungry LCD-2, especially since the WA7 is beautiful and I'd love to have it.


 
  
 I'm using a chord mojo on my LCD-2 and it's fine.  The mojo has way less power than the WA7.
  
 Edit:  I also use my LCD-2 on a Burson Conductor which has way more power and within the "recommended" power range.  I can't tell the difference.  I'm happy either way.


----------



## SP Wild

More power and better power supplies always seem to manifest itself in bigger bass. Going loud means more power and perhaps a warmer amp. But using bright gear, one does not need to crank up the LCD2s so much and exponentially less power is required. Portable gear seems to have an ability to emphasise details because bass is less bold overall. This seems to help significantly when listening at a lower level.


----------



## Mosauwer

Just a little bit off topic here. I am seeking help for my EL8 
Anyone here using EL8 with Audeze Deckard? How is the performance? Should i get it? or should i go for schiit Jotunheim? or any other suggestions would have been great 

THanks


----------



## tbxmar

Thanks for the replies, guys. Two different perspectives it seems.
  
 This is where I just wish I understood how amps work a little bit better, as that would probably help me answer the question. Filtering through what's placebo and what's not.
  
 Say I have a (max output) 4W amp. When I'm turning the volume knob up, from my understanding that's increasing the mW being fed to the headphone. A headphone _should_ always reproduce the same sound level with the same amount of mW being fed, right (all else being equal, of course)?
  
 And if I have a 4W max output amp, but I'm only using, say, 800mW, it's not like that other 3200mW is still being fed to the headphone because that would increase the volume. _Only _800mW at that time is being used, correct?
  
 If that 800mW is bringing my headphone to an appropriate listening level, then how would the headphone benefit from having an extra 3200mW that's not being used and not being fed to it?


----------



## sludgeogre

tbxmar said:


> If that 800mW is bringing my headphone to an appropriate listening level, then how would the headphone benefit from having an extra 3200mW that's not being used and not being fed to it?


 
 It's called headroom, and you want it for big dynamic peaks. When you have some big dynamics in the signal, that extra power reserve can sometimes be used. Also, generally things sound better when you use less power on an amp. I don't know why, I'm sure other people can chime in, but IMO things sound best when you have a lot of extra power and you don't end up using it. My Sierra Tower speakers and Magnepan Tympani 1D speakers are like this as well. They just continue sounding better the more power you have available for them.


----------



## hernandoco

tbxmar said:


> Thanks for the replies, guys. Two different perspectives it seems.
> 
> This is where I just wish I understood how amps work a little bit better, as that would probably help me answer the question. Filtering through what's placebo and what's not.
> 
> ...


 
 I had the same dilemma when I had IEMs and I wanted an amp.  Decided to use a 1.2W @32 ohm Schiit Magni, the original one without the gain adjustment, bad choice on my part.  I can barely turn the knob past 9 o'clock.  Any lower than than I had channel imbalance.  Even when using the LCD-2 on a magni, I can't even pass 12 o'clock before it becomes too loud to enjoy.  Basically don't buy because of how powerful it is.  I'd buy that Woo Audio if I had the money but only because I think it would look awesome at the office lol.
  
  


sludgeogre said:


> It's called headroom, and you want it for big dynamic peaks. When you have some big dynamics in the signal, that extra power reserve can sometimes be used. Also, generally things sound better when you use less power on an amp. I don't know why, I'm sure other people can chime in, but IMO things sound best when you have a lot of extra power and you don't end up using it. My Sierra Tower speakers and Magnepan Tympani 1D speakers are like this as well. They just continue sounding better the more power you have available for them.


 
  
 I've done a lot of reading on this and since I'm no sound engineer I'm not really too understanding of how this works.  However I hear the difference more noticeably only on speakers.  On headphones, no matter how hard I try or convince myself that my headphones sound different on different powers of amps, I really can't hear the difference.
  
 Can anyone chime in on this? I'm kinda curious how headroom works on headphones.  If you're listening to a song with high dynamics, how much more power does it actually demand versus a song that's less dynamic.  Headphone drivers are so tiny versus full sized speakers, that the power demand swing shouldn't be that much right?


----------



## SP Wild

If you want to experience the power of a live concert in the comfort of your own home without pissing of neighbours...I don't think there is a better headphone, combined with a watt of power. They can sink a full watt and drive them into your head, and it will be fun.

The other 90 percent of sane listening needs only a fraction of that watt.

I think with these headphones, driving the LCD2 to full potential means one watt, not because it must, but because it can. Without distortion. It's an experience upon itself. 

But like every thing enjoyable, this isn't healthy for you.

It's an option, not a necessity.


----------



## jodgey4

Another thing to consider is that sometimes amps will switch from like pure Class A output to Class AB to get more power on tap near the end of the volume knob. I'm generally not a believer in "more power is always better", but you really need to take it case by case and check out each amp. I'd take a pure Class A 1W amp (or less, really, the Fazor is pretty efficient) for Audezes any day over a more powerful but lesser topology. My current amp is a pure Class A NFB-28 which is gorgeous, and the extra power is nice for quiet sources and to be able to EQ the bass up when I want . Also, there's enough power to use my LCD-2's as speakers with no risk of driver damaging .


----------



## gward4

I just got the Audeze Deckard amp a few days ago, and the LCD-2 sounds fantastic. Lots of detail. Plenty of power. I am also considering the Burson Soloist, based on several reviews that rave about its abilities with the LCD-2, but I'm so pleased with the Deckard I will hold off for now. 

Setup was nice and easy with my iPhone 7 too. No problem using the iPhone 7 > camera USB converter > USB a to b. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Blotto80

I haven't heard the Deckard but I can tell you, I've been in bliss since I got my Soloist. Every time I fire it up I get the biggest smile on my face.


----------



## Ashah

gward4 said:


> I just got the Audeze Deckard amp a few days ago, and the LCD-2 sounds fantastic. Lots of detail. Plenty of power. I am also considering the Burson Soloist, based on several reviews that rave about its abilities with the LCD-2, but I'm so pleased with the Deckard I will hold off for now.
> 
> Setup was nice and easy with my iPhone 7 too. No problem using the iPhone 7 > camera USB converter > USB a to b.
> 
> ...


 
 I have a Deckard that I purchased during the Audeze black Friday sale , just love this amp with LCD 2F


----------



## WayTooCrazy

Anyone else here use/have used the Oppo HA-1 with the LCD-2f? I've built cables for my LCD that will allow me to go balanced, and now I'm curious. I could sell my Deckard for my purchase price, but is it worth the upgrade?


----------



## sludgeogre

hernandoco said:


> I've done a lot of reading on this and since I'm no sound engineer I'm not really too understanding of how this works.  However I hear the difference more noticeably only on speakers.  On headphones, no matter how hard I try or convince myself that my headphones sound different on different powers of amps, I really can't hear the difference.
> 
> Can anyone chime in on this? I'm kinda curious how headroom works on headphones.  If you're listening to a song with high dynamics, how much more power does it actually demand versus a song that's less dynamic.  Headphone drivers are so tiny versus full sized speakers, that the power demand swing shouldn't be that much right?


 
 It varies quite a bit depending on the headphone design. With speakers, you're dealing with room gain and speaker power, so if you have really power hungry speakers with a wild impedance curve, a very powerful amp does wonders. It's the same with headphones, and planar headphones tend to need more power than many dynamic headphones. The size of the driver isn't what matters, it's the electrical design behind it. For planar headphones, the magnet structure and field strength has quite a bit to do with how much power you'll end up needing. Some headphones (like the HE6) can draw massive amounts of power, while others (sensitive IEM's, low imepdance/high sensitivity headphones) can run with barely any power and sound great. It all depends on the design. With the LCD-2, if you can get between 500 mW and 1 W into them, they are rather happy, but many report great results with more power, but as others have said this can sometimes have to do with how the amp is biased (when it goes from class A to class A/B). I have the Asgard 2, which doesn't put a ton of power into them, but it is fully class A and I think it sounds pretty good, but I would like to get the Jotunheim to get more headroom one day.


----------



## merrixk

Currently stuck between getting either a Soloist SL MK2 or Ember 2, pairing with a Modi Multibit for my LCD2.2's. Anyone here have any experience with these pairings?


----------



## HarryWarner1

merrixk said:


> Currently stuck between getting either a Soloist SL MK2 or Ember 2, pairing with a Modi Multibit for my LCD2.2's. Anyone here have any experience with these pairings?


 

 i'm happy to answer questions about the Soloist SL MK2, let me know if you have any queries


----------



## merrixk

harrywarner1 said:


> i'm happy to answer questions about the Soloist SL MK2, let me know if you have any queries


 
 Hey Harry, thanks for the reply. Why did you end up choosing the MK2 over an alternative in its range?


----------



## HarryWarner1

merrixk said:


> harrywarner1 said:
> 
> 
> > i'm happy to answer questions about the Soloist SL MK2, let me know if you have any queries
> ...


 

 I went into addicted to audio, which is like an audio shop in Melbourne, and I listened to a few different amps with the 2's, that included the Jot, SL MK2, LYR2, + a friend of mine owns a $1500 questyle CMA 600i so I had a decent gauge of what I liked. the Questyle was the most transparent, the jot was the most fun, the Lyr was imo worse than the jot in terms of most areas bar total power output,  and the SL MK2 was also very transparent with my LCD-2, and considering the price difference between the 600i and the MK2 I found the Burson to be really good value.
  
 EDIT: plus a2a offered to sell me their demo unit so I got a really good price on what I had already decided to buy at full price


----------



## WayTooCrazy

harrywarner1 said:


> I went into addicted to audio, which is like an audio shop in Melbourne, and I listened to a few different amps with the 2's, that included the Jot, SL MK2, LYR2, + a friend of mine owns a $1500 questyle CMA 600i so I had a decent gauge of what I liked. the Questyle was the most transparent, the jot was the most fun, the Lyr was imo worse than the jot in terms of most areas bar total power output,  and the SL MK2 was also very transparent with my LCD-2, and considering the price difference between the 600i and the MK2 I found the Burson to be really good value.
> 
> EDIT: plus a2a offered to sell me their demo unit so I got a really good price on what I had already decided to buy at full price


 
 Congrats... but lets go back to the Jot shall we? How did you like them with the LCD-2? I already have the Deckard... but for some reason, Balanced headphones keep calling me. So, if the Jot sounds as good as the Deckard and swings more power in balanced, then... I'm in.


----------



## HarryWarner1

waytoocrazy said:


> Congrats... but lets go back to the Jot shall we? How did you like them with the LCD-2? I already have the Deckard... but for some reason, Balanced headphones keep calling me. So, if the Jot sounds as good as the Deckard and swings more power in balanced, then... I'm in.


 
 The Jot was a lot more 'fun' sounding with the 2's. I think because of the lcd-2's FR curve the burson would make it closer to neutral, where the Jot would do that less. So with the jot you essentially have what i'd almost call more of a v-shaped sound... but I don't actually think this is the case, that's just what I can compare it to in my mind, also another thing to note about the Jot is it can be fairly forgiving, I gave it some amazing recordings and then also stuff like Imagine by Lennon and it sounded pretty good.
  
 I have at times wished I got the Jot, however for the majority of the music I listen to the Burson win's for me. What is your music genre preference?


----------



## WayTooCrazy

harrywarner1 said:


> I have at times wished I got the Jot, however for the majority of the music I listen to the Burson win's for me. What is your music genre preference?


 
 Wonderful question... not 100% sure, but I like Diana Krall, St. Germain compilations (alot actually), some Folk, Smooth Jazz, R&B, some Pop. A mix in general (that is with the LCD). When I want EDM, Dub, Metal, Hair Metal, etc... I use the TH-X00 PH.
  
 Actually... anyone with Tidal... do you listen to similar music? Do you have a playlist that you can share?


----------



## hawkward

Has anyone managed to try the ALO PanAm with the LCD-2f? I just got the LCD-2f and I'm currently being offered a very good deal for it but am unsure of how the tubes would impact the sound. Any thoughts?


----------



## HarryWarner1

waytoocrazy said:


> harrywarner1 said:
> 
> 
> > I have at times wished I got the Jot, however for the majority of the music I listen to the Burson win's for me. What is your music genre preference?
> ...


 

 Haha, it seems like in an ideal world you'd have a mix between the two amps. Could you either listen to them both, or buy them both and return the one you don't prefer?


----------



## robtms

markj said:


> I am using SPL Phonitor amp (pro audio) and playing Dire Straits Brothers In Arms makes it sound like 3D, drums way in front of the head and guitar on the side, just like watching them. I don't know where they were standing at the recording, but it is a new scale of experience compare to other headphones on same setup. Headphone out of my cd player with LCD-2 sounds better then with T1. No previous experience with orthos (that I remember).


 
 Absolutely cosign the Phonitor. If you can afford it, it's an absolutely monster amp, and it's perfect with these cans.


----------



## WayTooCrazy

Anyone find an amp that they like the pairing with, that are portable/transportable for these? I kind of like listening at different areas around the house, and 'am thinking that I'd like to pick up the Onkyo DP-X1.


----------



## Blotto80

It's been a while since I've paid much attention to the portable amps available but I once looked at the Ray Samuels SR71b and it was phenomenal. If you want something with a DAC, I hear the Chord Mojo is pretty good.


----------



## Dynasty62

Out of curiosity, has anyone tried the Neve RNHP with the LCD2s?


----------



## WayTooCrazy

Anyone try the Teac UD-503?


----------



## ripwallet

Looking to buy a more suitable amp for my LCD-2s. Currently using a Valhalla2 with my HD650s. Any recommendations for an amp that will suit the needs for both the HD650s and the LCD-2s. I'm leaning towards Lyr 2 or the Vali 2.


----------



## Odin412

ripwallet said:


> Looking to buy a more suitable amp for my LCD-2s. Currently using a Valhalla2 with my HD650s. Any recommendations for an amp that will suit the needs for both the HD650s and the LCD-2s. I'm leaning towards Lyr 2 or the Vali 2.


 
  
 The Vali 2 works well - and you can change the sound slightly by trying other tubes. Depending on your budget I would also recommend taking a look at the Cavalli Liquid Carbon - it's one of my favorite combos with the LCD-2s.


----------



## WayTooCrazy

I did not like the Vali 2 with the LCD-2f. I had the stock tube and the BEL E88CC upgraded tube. They sounded good on everything I had, except the Audeze EL-8O and even worse on the LCD-2f. I sold it off and picked up the Deckard which sounds much better with the LCD-2f to my ears. I felt the Vali2 slowed the LCD-2f down more than it needed and made them seem bloated.


----------



## ripwallet

waytoocrazy said:


> I did not like the Vali 2 with the LCD-2f. I had the stock tube and the BEL E88CC upgraded tube. They sounded good on everything I had, except the Audeze EL-8O and even worse on the LCD-2f. I sold it off and picked up the Deckard which sounds much better with the LCD-2f to my ears. I felt the Vali2 slowed the LCD-2f down more than it needed and made them seem bloated.


 
 Maybe i'll save up and wait for the Deckard, need to move to something since my Valhalla 2 won't be the best choice for the LCD-2.


----------



## SP Wild

The Valhalla2 is actually a good tonal match to the LCD2. 

Just a matter how loud you wanna go.


----------



## ripwallet

sp wild said:


> The Valhalla2 is actually a good tonal match to the LCD2.
> 
> Just a matter how loud you wanna go.


 
 Worth trying out before i sell it? Would i just throw it on high gain and see what happens and  loud enough as in not enough power? Relatively new to amps trying to educate myself.


----------



## SP Wild

ripwallet said:


> Worth trying out before i sell it? Would i just throw it on high gain and see what happens and  loud enough as in not enough power? Relatively new to amps trying to educate myself.




Bingo.


----------



## WayTooCrazy

Hi, I think I'm addicted. I keep looking at new DACs and Amps for my headphones. Worst part is, I don't use them all that much. Ugh. So, I decided to plug the LCD-2f back into the Deckard and clicked through Tidal Hi-Fi. Hmmm, maybe I'm getting ahead of myself. They sound GREAT together. Do I really need to replace, or do I just want "shiny" new toys?


----------



## SP Wild

waytoocrazy said:


> Hi, I think I'm addicted. I keep looking at new DACs and Amps for my headphones. Worst part is, I don't use them all that much. Ugh. So, I decided to plug the LCD-2f back into the Deckard and clicked through Tidal Hi-Fi. Hmmm, maybe I'm getting ahead of myself. They sound GREAT together. Do I really need to replace, or do I just want "shiny" new toys?




You want shiny new toys, you want to explore what they have to offer. 

I know this, we are all somewhat afflicted, that is why I am here, because I am no different to you.


----------



## Lohb

waytoocrazy said:


> Hi, I think I'm addicted. I keep looking at new DACs and Amps for my headphones. Worst part is, I don't use them all that much. Ugh. So, I decided to plug the LCD-2f back into the Deckard and clicked through Tidal Hi-Fi. Hmmm, maybe I'm getting ahead of myself. They sound GREAT together. Do I really need to replace, or do I just want "shiny" new toys?


 

 ...it's the mirage of believing the next shiny one that has got you curious just out of reach is finally the last one....fun if you have the money to burn in the quest of getting every last bit out of your headphones.


----------



## WayTooCrazy

lohb said:


> ...it's the mirage of believing the next shiny one that has got you curious just out of reach is finally the last one....fun if you have the money to burn in the quest of getting every last bit out of your headphones.


 
 I agree. The "balanced" possibility is drawing my attention lately. I keep telling myself that it won't make a big enough difference (sitting 3ft from the amp) to justify the cost of replacing the Dac/Amp and new headphone cable. Though, if the Jotunheim is as good or better than the Deckard... that is probably where I'd end up going, as I could probably sell my Deckard for what I paid and almost make an even swap for the Jotunheim.


----------



## exsomnis

waytoocrazy said:


> I agree. The "balanced" possibility is drawing my attention lately. I keep telling myself that it won't make a big enough difference (sitting 3ft from the amp) to justify the cost of replacing the Dac/Amp and new headphone cable. Though, if the Jotunheim is as good or better than the Deckard... that is probably where I'd end up going, as I could probably sell my Deckard for what I paid and almost make an even swap for the Jotunheim.


 
  
 What does balanced cabling have to do with your distance from the amp? Anyway, I can tell you from experience that the difference between a well designed single ended system and a well designed balanced system is zero.
  
 Sure, there are benefits to having a grounded signal going through balanced cables and having much less interference getting into them but signal interference in RCA cables only really affects you when you're going into the realm of hundreds of feet. Even then, that's only when your RCA cable is unshielded - and any decent RCA cable will have that shielding. 
  
 Some people (on here too) will tell you that balanced mode is undeniably better but they've never double blind tested the comparison between single ended and balanced systems with sound level matching. 
  
 Don't make the mistake either of comparing the single ended output vs the balanced output of any amp that has both, because they are not equal. The single ended output circuitry is usually added for convenience and an afterthought, and thus the quality is not as high. 
  
 That said, there are very good balanced amps out there but to get the full benefit of them you need to be balanced from DAC till headphone - and that will cost you. Then again, there are single ended amps that are just as good too, But if you want to listen around (we all do), by all means, take the plunge. Just setting your expectations there.


----------



## opero

Hi everybody,
  
 I have a new LCD-2, very happy about it. I would like to buy a nomad amplifier (or dac, whathever), with the particularity of be plugged through my Zen Tour Antelope (audio interface), which has a SPDIF connection (in/out). Do you have a nomad amp to recommend me with a SPIF connector behind, under 500$ ? thanks


----------



## WayTooCrazy

If I was determined to take my LCD-2F around the house (to a different room than where my Deckard is located), or over to a friend's house or even the Patio. What would be a good suggestion for a portable/transportable DAC/Amp that powers them fairly well like the Deckard does?


----------



## sludgeogre

waytoocrazy said:


> If I was determined to take my LCD-2F around the house (to a different room than where my Deckard is located), or over to a friend's house or even the Patio. What would be a good suggestion for a portable/transportable DAC/Amp that powers them fairly well like the Deckard does?


 
 Look no further than the Chord Mojo. It's really the best option by a mile, especially from a price/performance perspective.


----------



## WayTooCrazy

sludgeogre said:


> Look no further than the Chord Mojo. It's really the best option by a mile, especially from a price/performance perspective.


 
 I was thinking the same thing, but I've also been reading that the DAC on the Mojo is Fantastic... but the amp is a bit on the weaker side, and probably won't drive the LCD-2f well. There was also a reference to synergy and the LCD-2f not being that great. I'm sure people have tried them here...so I figured I'd ask.


----------



## x RELIC x

waytoocrazy said:


> I was thinking the same thing, but I've also been reading that the DAC on the Mojo is Fantastic... but the amp is a bit on the weaker side, and probably won't drive the LCD-2f well. There was also a reference to synergy and the LCD-2f not being that great. I'm sure people have tried them here...so I figured I'd ask.




Mojo doesn't have a separate amp, it essentially drives headphones from the DAC's line out stage, so no, the _amp section_ isn't weak.... there isn't one. The output power of the Mojo is 600mW @32 Ohm with 500mA current delivery. I find it drives my LCD-2.2 very well and I have some other quality gear to compare in my possession (see my profile). 

Now, as far as synergy is concerned then that's an entirely different matter. The Cavalli Liquid Gold adds a certain warmth and has a wider soundstage, but it adds that to all my headphones, even much easier to drive headphones, not just the LCD-2.2. I barely use 1/8th of the volume on the Liquid Gold. From a power perspective the Mojo is fine and I personally like the pairing. From a synergy perspective you need to demo the gear to know for yourself.


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## WayTooCrazy

x relic x said:


> Mojo doesn't have a separate amp, it essentially drives headphones from the DAC's line out stage, so no, the _amp section_ isn't weak.... there isn't one. The output power of the Mojo is 600mW @32 Ohm with 500mA current delivery. I find it drives my LCD-2.2 very well and I have some other quality gear to compare in my possession (see my profile).
> 
> Now, as far as synergy is concerned then that's an entirely different matter. The Cavalli Liquid Gold adds a certain warmth and has a wider soundstage, but it adds that to all my headphones, even much easier to drive headphones, not just the LCD-2.2. I barely use 1/8th of the volume on the Liquid Gold. From a power perspective the Mojo is fine and I personally like the pairing. From a synergy perspective you need to demo the gear to know for yourself.


 
 Unfortunately I don't really have the opportunity to demo prior to purchase. Would you be content listening to the LCD-2 and LCD-XC (another headphone that I really want) through the Mojo alone? I'm looking to take this rig (HP Spectre X2, Mojo, LCD-2f and soon LCD-XC) as a Transportable setup as I move around the house (and especially the patio) a lot. I even intend to bring it to family's house who are interested in headphones as well. I have a Deckard, but I rarely turn it on as when I'm at my desk or at my listening area, I never reach for headphones (instead I prefer speakers).


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## x RELIC x

waytoocrazy said:


> Unfortunately I don't really have the opportunity to demo prior to purchase. Would you be content listening to the LCD-2 and LCD-XC (another headphone that I really want) through the Mojo alone? I'm looking to take this rig (HP Spectre X2, Mojo, LCD-2f and soon LCD-XC) as a Transportable setup as I move around the house (and especially the patio) a lot. I even intend to bring it to family's house who are interested in headphones as well. I have a Deckard, but I rarely turn it on as when I'm at my desk or at my listening area, I never reach for headphones (instead I prefer speakers).




For the LCD-2.2 I like the Mojo very much. with the XC not so much. Although the XC is _much easier _to drive I find the XC too bright for my tastes nowadays. You can read my Mojo review from last year to see _my thoughts_ on each pairing (near the end of the review). Compared to the Deckard the Mojo may sound not as full (from what I've read - I haven't personally heard the Deckard). 

If you want very good transients and exceptional transparency to the source the Mojo is your device. The DAC of the Mojo is special. If you want a more lush or euphonic presentation you may want to look at other gear like the WA8, ALO CDM, ALO Cv5, all transportable tube amps with the ALO CDM and WA8 having a built in DAC. There are a couple solid state amps like the FiiO e12 or Cayin N5 with gobs of power and bass boost, but i find their sound to be slightly grainy. Some find the Mojo thin with certain gear and I can see how they feel this way depending on where they are coming from. Others find the Mojo to be warm, and again, this depends on what gear one is coming from.

Edit: I should emphasis that my LCD-XC is weak in the bass, and my LCD-2.2 is likely not as bright as the LCD-2f. Good 'ol Audeze variance.


----------



## hawkward

I actually would! I just got a 2nd hand Mojo and i find that it actually improves imaging and the soundstage by a fair bit as compared to the O2. However, it suffers a little in terms of the treble as there tends to be a bit of roll-off towards the higher ends. Still, the Mojo itself is an extremely capable DAC/amp that does sound worth it's price with the LCD-2f.


----------



## WayTooCrazy

x relic x said:


> For the LCD-2.2 I like the Mojo very much. with the XC not so much. Although the XC is _much easier _to drive I find the XC too bright for my tastes nowadays. You can read my Mojo review from last year to see _my thoughts_ on each pairing (near the end of the review). Compared to the Deckard the Mojo may sound not as full (from what I've read - I haven't personally heard the Deckard).
> 
> If you want very good transients and exceptional transparency to the source the Mojo is your device. The DAC of the Mojo is special. If you want a more lush or euphonic presentation you may want to look at other gear like the WA8, ALO CDM, ALO Cv5, all transportable tube amps with the ALO CDM and WA8 having a built in DAC. There are a couple solid state amps like the FiiO e12 or Cayin N5 with gobs of power and bass boost, but i find their sound to be slightly grainy. Some find the Mojo thin with certain gear and I can see how they feel this way depending on where they are coming from. Others find the Mojo to be warm, and again, this depends on what gear one is coming from.
> 
> Edit: I should emphasis that my LCD-XC is weak in the bass, and my LCD-2.2 is likely not as bright as the LCD-2f. Good 'ol Audeze variance.


 
  
  


hawkward said:


> I actually would! I just got a 2nd hand Mojo and i find that it actually improves imaging and the soundstage by a fair bit as compared to the O2. However, it suffers a little in terms of the treble as there tends to be a bit of roll-off towards the higher ends. Still, the Mojo itself is an extremely capable DAC/amp that does sound worth it's price with the LCD-2f.


 
  
 Thanks guys. I just ordered up my Mojo. Now, do you prefer USB or Optical in for best sound on the Mojo? I'm looking at USB to Optical converters and wondering if I should even bother.


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## martinrajdl

Really interested to see your comparison of Mojo and Deckard sound quality wise. I have been looking into different desktop amps for the LCD2 but at the same time, I would like the versatility and portability of Mojo. I know you were looking into getting Jot too, so if you do that as well, let me know what they sound like 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


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## WayTooCrazy

martinrajdl said:


> Really interested to see your comparison of Mojo and Deckard sound quality wise. I have been looking into different desktop amps for the LCD2 but at the same time, I would like the versatility and portability of Mojo. I know you were looking into getting Jot too, so if you do that as well, let me know what they sound like
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 The Jot is off the table for now. I'm more concentrating on a portable rig. If anything, I may add an RSA Protector in the mix (in future) if I feel I need more swing in power.


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## martinrajdl

@WayTooCrazy oh that's too bad, but definitely understandable decision considering that you already have the Deckard.
 The balanced setup of Jot and LC (and others) is still very intriguing though, at least to me.


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## ripwallet

is there any easy way to tell which revision you have? Checking my proof of authenticity card from Audeze it looks like mine were purchased in 2014 and they are the fazor model.  I bought them used, can grab the exact serial # is that helps. 

 So far loving my Lyr2 with them, looking forward to some tube rolling to experiment with the LCD-2s.


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## hawkward

The Fazors feel like grilles located on the centre of the headphones. If you can feel it, then it's fazored. To confirm, you can also email Audeze CS; they can confirm warranty status and provide you with the individual FR graph for your unit as well.


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## garretwp

Those of you with a Jotunheim and LCD-2, at what volume position do you have your Jotunheim set at for both SE and Balanced? I have the Jot set at low gain and with SE, I have to have the volume set to around 11-12 o'clock position to be at a reasonable volume. When using balanced, it is around 10-11 o'clock. Does this seem about the same for you?

- Garrett


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## martinrajdl

Hey, just a question here, *but is it crazy to be considering getting a Mojo as my only **dac**/amp combo to use with the LCD-2*? Since I got them and got rid of Val2 I have been picking out a replacement, but I can't really settle on anything, and I really like the fact that I could take mojo around the house etc, even though my primary use is would be a desktop. 
  
 I have been considering other things as well, namely *Jot* (which will probably be then one I'll get if I don't get Mojo), Lyr2, NFB-11, *Liquid Carbon* (I would like this one the most, but price and import fees), Deckard (still pretty darn expensive), Corda Jazz and *Classic* and Soloist SL mk2 and even *Elise*, but I'm not sure if it would be such a great pairing.
  
 I currently own an Odac, but I am thinking about selling it and going with either this or other Dac/amp combo or keeping in and getting one of the amps above.
  
 So my question is, would it be crazy to get Mojo instead of the other desktop amps above, even though desktop use is my main priority? Any opinions?


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## WayTooCrazy

martinrajdl said:


> Hey, just a question here, *but is it crazy to be considering getting a Mojo as my only **dac**/amp combo to use with the LCD-2*? Since I got them and got rid of Val2 I have been picking out a replacement, but I can't really settle on anything, and I really like the fact that I could take mojo around the house etc, even though my primary use is would be a desktop.
> 
> I have been considering other things as well, namely *Jot* (which will probably be then one I'll get if I don't get Mojo), Lyr2, NFB-11, *Liquid Carbon* (I would like this one the most, but price and import fees), Deckard (still pretty darn expensive), Corda Jazz and *Classic* and Soloist SL mk2 and even *Elise*, but I'm not sure if it would be such a great pairing.
> 
> ...


 
 I'm actually hoping the Mojo is all it is cracked up to be. If it "sounds" good, but doesn't have the driving power, I may pair it up with an Ray Samuels Protector or something similar for extra driving power. I don't intend to use the desktop amps often. I will probably keep my Deckard, as I like how it sounds feeding my desktop setup, but that could also change as well and if I replace it, I might go with a Schiit Modi Multibit.


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## martinrajdl

@WayTooCrazy Huh, like I mentioned before, I am really looking forward to your opinion about it when you get it. A lot of people seem to consider the Deckard an exceptional pairing for the LCD-2, and if the mojo manages to somewhat keep up, I would probably be sold.


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## WayTooCrazy

martinrajdl said:


> @WayTooCrazy Huh, like I mentioned before, I am really looking forward to your opinion about it when you get it. A lot of people seem to consider the Deckard an exceptional pairing for the LCD-2, and if the mojo manages to somewhat keep up, I would probably be sold.


 
 What I meant was, I'm actually quite interested in the pairing of the Mojo with the LCD as well. I will be heavily comparing the two (Mojo and Deckard). If I find that I enjoy the sound (DAC) of the Mojo, but think that I need more power (according to everyone, that isn't likely)...then I would consider adding on the RSA Protector to the Mojo to give it more driving power for the headphones (and also adding in Balanced mode). I prefer to stay "mobile", so I do not intend on looking further at many desktop style amps.


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## Tom Blake

@garretwp- I have my Jot at about 10-11 o'clock for SE connection on High Gain with my LCD2.2F. I will try balanced connection later this week when I get a cable. Very happy with my Jot/LCD2 combo!


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## Steve Wilcox

I use the Mojo with my LCD2s in my main listening rig connected by optical and with a power cable permanently connected from my power conditoner. I generally listen in the orange zone which is very near the bottom. I don't think anyone would find the Mojo lacking in power for the LCD2s.


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## WayTooCrazy

martinrajdl said:


> @WayTooCrazy Huh, like I mentioned before, I am really looking forward to your opinion about it when you get it. A lot of people seem to consider the Deckard an exceptional pairing for the LCD-2, and if the mojo manages to somewhat keep up, I would probably be sold.


 
 The Deckard is nice. The Mojo has a "crisper" sound to it. The Deckard sounds more like tubes, and the Mojo is more refined. I'm not sure if I'm keeping the Deckard anymore.
  


steve wilcox said:


> I use the Mojo with my LCD2s in my main listening rig connected by optical and with a power cable permanently connected from my power conditoner. I generally listen in the orange zone which is very near the bottom. I don't think anyone would find the Mojo lacking in power for the LCD2s.


 
 100% correct. The Mojo can power the LCD2 without issue.


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## sludgeogre

waytoocrazy said:


> The Deckard is nice. The Mojo has a "crisper" sound to it. The Deckard sounds more like tubes, and the Mojo is more refined. I'm not sure if I'm keeping the Deckard anymore.


 
 Chord designs tend to win people over pretty quick, same as Schiit. I have a Bifrost Uber and an Emotiva XMC-1 so I have yet to make the jump to Chord, but one day I really want to get the Mojo/Poly combo, but man, their stuff is pricey.


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## martinrajdl

@WayTooCrazy Wow, that's pretty interesting. Seems like all the hype is very well deserved.
 I have also come to the conclusion that I would much rather have something somewhat portable, and with what you have to say about Mojo, I guess I'll be getting me rather soon.


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## WayTooCrazy

sludgeogre said:


> Chord designs tend to win people over pretty quick, same as Schiit. I have a Bifrost Uber and an Emotiva XMC-1 so I have yet to make the jump to Chord, but one day I really want to get the Mojo/Poly combo, but man, their stuff is pricey.



Agreed. It is a bit pricey. I also 'am looking at adding the Poly as I can leave my tablet in the house and just take that combo to the patio to listen. Now I just need to get into wine and I'll be set.



martinrajdl said:


> @WayTooCrazy
> Wow, that's pretty interesting. Seems like all the hype is very well deserved.
> I have also come to the conclusion that I would much rather have something somewhat portable, and with what you have to say about Mojo, I guess I'll be getting me rather soon.



The hype is real, the hype is worthy. I'm tempted to put the Deckard and LCD-2 up as a pair and put that towards an Elear.


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## martinrajdl

I don't know really about mojo being pricey, compared to everything I would have to pay import fees and taxes for, it's pretty OK to me.
 However, before I got the LCD-2 I was also heavily considering the Elear, and I am glad that I got the LCDs. I definitely wouldn't mind having the Elear as well, but between the two, I like the LCD-2 much better. 
  
 What makes you consider the switch ?


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## sludgeogre

martinrajdl said:


> I don't know really about mojo being pricey, compared to everything I would have to pay import fees and taxes for, it's pretty OK to me.
> However, before I got the LCD-2 I was also heavily considering the Elear, and I am glad that I got the LCDs. I definitely wouldn't mind having the Elear as well, but between the two, I like the LCD-2 much better.
> 
> What makes you consider the switch ?


 
 Mojo is very affordable on it's own, but adding a Poly it gets a little pricey for me. I just love the idea of controlling it with airplay. I have an iBasso DX80 for office/portable use right now and it sounds great, but can't drive my LCD-2 at work so I have to connect it to an Asgard 2.
  
 I also really like Chord's designer Rob Watts' work. Their line of DACs are really interesting designs. Everyone loves the DAVE, and it's a really weird product that sounds like it shouldn't work, but apparently it works great.


----------



## WayTooCrazy

martinrajdl said:


> I don't know really about mojo being pricey, compared to everything I would have to pay import fees and taxes for, it's pretty OK to me.
> However, before I got the LCD-2 I was also heavily considering the Elear, and I am glad that I got the LCDs. I definitely wouldn't mind having the Elear as well, but between the two, I like the LCD-2 much better.
> 
> What makes you consider the switch ?


 
 The reviews of the match, but now that I hear that the upper mids are a bit recessed, I'm no longer considering the Elear. I'm happy with what I have and will continue my search for my perfect closed headphone. I want the LCD-XC, but would like to listen to them before committing to purchase. I need to try out the Mojo more as a "Pre", since the 1 time I tried it, I preferred the Deckard as a "Pre". So... if it continues this way, I will keep everything and wait till end of year to purchase a nice closed headphone.


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## WayTooCrazy

sludgeogre said:


> Mojo is very affordable on it's own, but adding a Poly it gets a little pricey for me. I just love the idea of controlling it with airplay. I have an iBasso DX80 for office/portable use right now and it sounds great, but can't drive my LCD-2 at work so I have to connect it to an Asgard 2.
> 
> I also really like Chord's designer Rob Watts' work. Their line of DACs are really interesting designs. Everyone loves the DAVE, and it's a really weird product that sounds like it shouldn't work, but apparently it works great.


 
 I'm also considering the Poly for use outside on Patio... where I will not need to bring my Tablet. Even on the go, I can outfit my phone with a 256GB card instead of the 128GB and just use it wirelessly.   BTW: I hate the DAVE, not because it isn't good... because I can't afford it or justify the cost of giving it more than a side glance.


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## WayTooCrazy

@martinrajdl Doing more listening to the Mojo vs the Deckard. To be honest, I still really like the sound of the Deckard. It has a somewhat Tube sound that I really enjoy. The Mojo is definitely no slouch and a bit "cleaner", but also more analytical. I believe that the Deckard would pair better with more headphones than Mojo. If the Deckard was mobile, it would be what I'd take around with me over the Mojo I think. Still testing more music though.


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## WayTooCrazy

Deckard has gone up for sale if anyone is interested.

 http://www.head-fi.org/t/836365/fs-audeze-deckard


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## martinrajdl

Wow, that went downhill for deckard pretty quickly. Anyway, thanks for the impressions, I think it is really impressive that a tiny portable amp is good enough to give a popular pick like the Deckard a run for its money.
 I am almost certain I will be picking it up too as I became very fond of the idea of being able to take the LCD-2 around with me to different rooms and to bed etc.
 Can't wait to get it. 
  
 I don't really get all the hype about Poly though, I really don't think that the wireless possibilities are such a big deal, especially considering how much it costs. I don't see what is so bad about just plugging it via a cable. Maybe I am missing something but at least for right now, I am not very interested.


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## WayTooCrazy

martinrajdl said:


> Wow, that went downhill for deckard pretty quickly. Anyway, thanks for the impressions, I think it is really impressive that a tiny portable amp is good enough to give a popular pick like the Deckard a run for its money.
> I am almost certain I will be picking it up too as I became very fond of the idea of being able to take the LCD-2 around with me to different rooms and to bed etc.
> Can't wait to get it.
> 
> I don't really get all the hype about Poly though, I really don't think that the wireless possibilities are such a big deal, especially considering how much it costs. I don't see what is so bad about just plugging it via a cable. Maybe I am missing something but at least for right now, I am not very interested.


 
 I would suggest you find someone local who has the Mojo and at least give it a listen with your LCD-2. Not everyone feels the way I did. There are also times when I feel the "slam" on the Deckard is better, but that is to be expected going from an "A" weighted Desktop amp to a portable one. I'm still looking around for a differential balanced headphone amp to pair with the Mojo. I'd still like to try it.


----------



## SP Wild

waytoocrazy said:


> I would suggest you find someone local who has the Mojo and at least give it a listen with your LCD-2. Not everyone feels the way I did. There are also times when I feel the "slam" on the Deckard is better, but that is to be expected going from an "A" weighted Desktop amp to a portable one. I'm still looking around for a differential balanced headphone amp to pair with the Mojo. I'd still like to try it.




A differetially signalling amp to pair with Mojo doesn't make sense. The Mojo doesn't output a differential signal. 

Although having a balanced amp seems to be the defacto upgrade path these days, dvelopment of balanced amps will probably be humming along nicely. 

Be wary and educate yourself on balanced amps... Its a minefield.

I keep looking at the Joteheim and the Asgard 2. I can't decide and money isn't the issue.


----------



## WayTooCrazy

sp wild said:


> A differetially signalling amp to pair with Mojo doesn't make sense. The Mojo doesn't output a differential signal.
> 
> Although having a balanced amp seems to be the defacto upgrade path these days, dvelopment of balanced amps will probably be humming along nicely.
> 
> Be wary and educate yourself on balanced amps... Its a minefield.


 
 As I understand it.. The RSA Amps (a couple of them anyway) can take the SE output from something like the Mojo and internally separate the signal into two opposing signals (isn't the differential... unless I have the concept completely wrong, and is likely the case) that can then be output via a balanced connector. It may not be "fully" balanced throughout, but this workaround still provides a workable balanced solution I would think. I was just wondering if there was anything else out there that does something similar.


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## sludgeogre

sp wild said:


> A differetially signalling amp to pair with Mojo doesn't make sense. The Mojo doesn't output a differential signal.
> 
> Although having a balanced amp seems to be the defacto upgrade path these days, dvelopment of balanced amps will probably be humming along nicely.
> 
> Be wary and educate yourself on balanced amps... Its a minefield.


 
 This is totally spot on. Absolutely zero point in buying a differential/balanced amp when you aren't pairing it with a balanced DAC. Chord makes everything single ended. They encourage XLR interconnects to their devices that have XLR to reduce noise that makes it's way to the device, but their designs are completely single ended. The more I read about balanced designs, the less I actually care about them for headphones, but my home theater is balanced all the way through.


----------



## SP Wild

waytoocrazy said:


> As I understand it.. The RSA Amps (a couple of them anyway) can take the SE output from something like the Mojo and internally separate the signal into two opposing signals (isn't the differential... unless I have the concept completely wrong, and is likely the case) that can then be output via a balanced connector. It may not be "fully" balanced throughout, but this workaround still provides a workable balanced solution I would think. I was just wondering if there was anything else out there that does something similar.




Most balance amps can do something like this. My AudioGD Phoenix does, as does my WA22... Actually the WA22 is balaced but not differentially signalled... Just to confuse you some more.


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## WayTooCrazy

sp wild said:


> Most balance amps can do something like this. My AudioGD Phoenix does, as does my WA22... Actually the WA22 is balaced but not differentially signalled... Just to confuse you some more.


 
 Interesting, I was looking to keep it portable though. I no longer have interest in Desktop amps.


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## SP Wild

Well I'm out if my depth here. 

I made it a point to keep all my portable stuff non balanced... Too much connection types to muck around with... I am steering clear away from balanced portables.


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## sludgeogre

waytoocrazy said:


> Interesting, I was looking to keep it portable though. I no longer have interest in Desktop amps.


 
 I would highly recommend you stay single ended with the LCD-2 then. Because balanced designs operate at higher voltages, and you have to have double the parts (left and right channels are seperated) they use a lot more power and can't put out a lot of juice for very long running off a battery.
  
 I really think that balanced only matters if the full signal chain is taking advantage of the topology to accomplish certain goals of power, efficiency, and sound quality, but sometimes it can introduce more problems than it solves. The Mojo has far fewer parts in the signal path than anything you'll add to the sound chain has.
  
 Your options are super limited anyway. Only some of the super high end DAPs have balanced outputs, and I only know of several balanced, portable headphone amps, the Cavalli LC being by far the most popular, but again, it's designed for a balanced input/output. The SE connections are there for convenience.


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## paruchuribros

waytoocrazy said:


> Thanks guys. I just ordered up my Mojo. Now, do you prefer USB or Optical in for best sound on the Mojo? I'm looking at USB to Optical converters and wondering if I should even bother.


 
 I am using Mojo with Shanling M1. These 2 are made for each other. Best combo ever.


----------



## martinrajdl

Damn, I just realized the Mojo is a lot more expensive in the US than here in Europe. I just wish I could try it out somewhere. I guess I'll just have to give it a shot. Until I have heard so many good things about the Mojo, I didn't even consider getting something portable, but the idea of being able to carry it around really grew on me.


----------



## WayTooCrazy

martinrajdl said:


> Damn, I just realized the Mojo is a lot more expensive in the US than here in Europe. I just wish I could try it out somewhere. I guess I'll just have to give it a shot. Until I have heard so many good things about the Mojo, I didn't even consider getting something portable, but the idea of being able to carry it around really grew on me.


 
 Me too! FYI: Read the Mojo thread. Especially the FAQ section (for charging). A few of us are dealing with a "coil" whine while it charges. I ended up ordering a new charger and cable, but also custom built a cable to see if that helps eliminate the coil issue.
  
 BTW: I've decided to keep the Deckard. It is too good of an amp with fantastic Synergy with the LCD-2 to just let it go. It also works great as a pre-amp to my active desktop setup... so, it's here to stay.


----------



## martinrajdl

waytoocrazy said:


> Me too! FYI: Read the Mojo thread. Especially the FAQ section (for charging). A few of us are dealing with a "coil" whine while it charges. I ended up ordering a new charger and cable, but also custom built a cable to see if that helps eliminate the coil issue.
> 
> BTW: I've decided to keep the Deckard. It is too good of an amp with fantastic Synergy with the LCD-2 to just let it go. It also works great as a pre-amp to my active desktop setup... so, it's here to stay.


 
 I just subscribed it earlier today, but haven't really had a chance to read anything yet. I was planning to buy it with the cable kit, so I'll see how that goes, but I don't know about the noise, hope there is a way to get rid of it.
 One thing that worries me is the battery life degrading over time, and really everything that has to do with charging, but I think, the pros outweigh the cons. I really fell in love with the idea of just using the LCD2 properly amped in bed 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 - it's something about the leather that just makes them feel so cozy. 
  
 Btw, I also think it is a smart decision to keep the Deckard, at least for right now. If you end up not finding a use for it in, you can always sell it in the future. (At least that is what I always do with used, stuff, keep it, and when I am sure I have no use for it, sell it)


----------



## Lohb

waytoocrazy said:


> Me too! FYI: Read the Mojo thread. Especially the FAQ section (for charging). A few of us are dealing with a "coil" whine while it charges. I ended up ordering a new charger and cable, but also custom built a cable to see if that helps eliminate the coil issue.
> 
> BTW: I've decided to keep the Deckard. It is too good of an amp with fantastic Synergy with the LCD-2 to just let it go. It also works great as a pre-amp to my active desktop setup... so, it's here to stay.


 

 The Deckard was used in this $4k cans (LCD-4 + Utopia) shoot-out with $60k speakers + sub combo.
  
 http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/katz%E2%80%99s-corner-episode-13-big-shootout-audeze-lcd-4-vs-focal-utopia
  
 Wise choice


----------



## WayTooCrazy

lohb said:


> The Deckard was used in this $4k cans (LCD-4 + Utopia) shoot-out with $60k speakers + sub combo.
> 
> http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/katz%E2%80%99s-corner-episode-13-big-shootout-audeze-lcd-4-vs-focal-utopia
> 
> Wise choice


 
 Hot Dang! The Deckard is a fantastic amp! I've listened to a bunch more tracks... trying to figure out the buzzing issue with my Mojo...and while the "DAC" might be cleaner in the Mojo... the Deckard has more "weight" to it, and is a more "fun" and engaging amp to me. If the replacement Mojo buzzes too... I'm just returning it... to find the equivalent of the Deckard in the Mobile space (whatever that is).


----------



## sludgeogre

waytoocrazy said:


> Hot Dang! The Deckard is a fantastic amp! I've listened to a bunch more tracks... trying to figure out the buzzing issue with my Mojo...and while the "DAC" might be cleaner in the Mojo... the Deckard has more "weight" to it, and is a more "fun" and engaging amp to me. If the replacement Mojo buzzes too... I'm just returning it... to find the equivalent of the Deckard in the Mobile space (whatever that is).


 
 I would try the optical input on the Mojo first and see if that buzzes before returning it. If you're using it over USB it could just be noise from the USB port. I know I get a lot of noise on my Bifrost when I plug it into most windows computers I have, even with a Wyrd connected.


----------



## WayTooCrazy

sludgeogre said:


> I would try the optical input on the Mojo first and see if that buzzes before returning it. If you're using it over USB it could just be noise from the USB port. I know I get a lot of noise on my Bifrost when I plug it into most windows computers I have, even with a Wyrd connected.


 
 This is with no connection (other than charger) as well, and it buzzes. No at all time mind you.
  
 Side Note: What speaker is that in your Avatar? It looks awesome, especially the ribbon tweeter!


----------



## sludgeogre

waytoocrazy said:


> This is with no connection (other than charger) as well, and it buzzes. No at all time mind you.
> 
> Side Note: What speaker is that in your Avatar? It looks awesome, especially the ribbon tweeter!


 
 Aw, shucks, that certainly could be an issue. Good thing you sent it back.
  
 That would be one of my Ascend Acoustics Sierra Towers with RAAL tweeters. Best speakers I've ever heard, insanely detailed and smooth at the same time. Great for someone with tinnitus from listening to too much death metal, like me. Really stepped up another notch in realism and detail when I put the XMC-1 into my system, Dirac is magical.
  
 http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/SRT/srt.html


----------



## WayTooCrazy

sludgeogre said:


> Aw, shucks, that certainly could be an issue. Good thing you sent it back.
> 
> That would be one of my Ascend Acoustics Sierra Towers with RAAL tweeters. Best speakers I've ever heard, insanely detailed and smooth at the same time. Great for someone with tinnitus from listening to too much death metal, like me. Really stepped up another notch in realism and detail when I put the XMC-1 into my system, Dirac is magical.
> 
> http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/SRT/srt.html


 
 I haven't sent the Mojo back "yet". Waiting on the supposed AudioQuest Forest cable that was referenced to fix it. I'm still in touch with the Vendor though and will send it back in a heart beat (and not miss out on my return window). I'm going to look into those speakers for my near-field setup.


----------



## sludgeogre

waytoocrazy said:


> I haven't sent the Mojo back "yet". Waiting on the supposed AudioQuest Forest cable that was referenced to fix it. I'm still in touch with the Vendor though and will send it back in a heart beat (and not miss out on my return window). I'm going to look into those speakers for my near-field setup.


 
 Gotcha, I have doubts about the cable doing anything, but look forward to seeing your impressions.
  
 For near field I would consider going with the Sierra-2. It has very intense holographic imaging capabilities.


----------



## xrk971

A simple two transistor Single Ended Class A amp that fits in your pocket can drive the LCD-2 very nicely. See here:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/group-buys/302859-xrk971-pocket-class-headamp-gb-24.html#post4997809

This amp is available as a DIY PCB group buy or you can get it pre-populated. The sound of a SE Class A amp is very special. Here you get the SE Class A tube like sound without the tube. 

http://www.head-fi.org/t/837656/new-portable-amp-pocket-class-a-by-xrk971-now-available-as-complete-pcb


----------



## WayTooCrazy

The Cambridge DacMagic XS that I lost (and is now found) also powers the LCD-2F to loud levels. I don't know how dynamic the headphone will be, but I can check that later (after charging my phone)...


----------



## martinrajdl

@WayTooCrazy Hi, sooo how is your Mojo ? still buzzing or did you manage to get rid of the issue?


----------



## WayTooCrazy

martinrajdl said:


> @WayTooCrazy Hi, sooo how is your Mojo ? still buzzing or did you manage to get rid of the issue?


 
 It still does "whine", but it is less than it used to be. Still an annoyance considering the cost of the unit, but it isn't the end of the world. It does typically go "away" once you power on the device. I'm still in deciding phase, as I still think the Deckard match is better at "desk side" listening with LCD-2F. Now that I've located my DacMagic XS... I'm wondering if this $120 device is "good enough" for portable listening with the LCD-2F that I can safely return the Mojo and get another headphone instead? Will continue testing.


----------



## martinrajdl

Damn, that is really disappointing, I was already somewhat decided that I will go with Mojo, but this made me reconsider and I again have no idea what I will end up getting. I tend to be super obsessed about little annoyances like this so that's probably a no go for me.


----------



## WayTooCrazy

martinrajdl said:


> Damn, that is really disappointing, I was already somewhat decided that I will go with Mojo, but this made me reconsider and I again have no idea what I will end up getting. I tend to be super obsessed about little annoyances like this so that's probably a no go for me.


 
 I'm keeping it. I don't intend to keep it running or plugged in all the time at my desk, as I will keep the Deckard there. It does sound better with better instrument separation than the Cambridge or my LG V20... so, there is always that. I don't think I'll return it, as I think the Hugo 2 is too much for me. I want to work on my 2 channel setup and stop with the headphones pretty much.
  
 What about an iFi iDSD Micro BL or something?


----------



## martinrajdl

waytoocrazy said:


> I'm keeping it. I don't intend to keep it running or plugged in all the time at my desk, as I will keep the Deckard there. It does sound better with better instrument separation than the Cambridge or my LG V20... so, there is always that. I don't think I'll return it, as I think the Hugo 2 is too much for me. I want to work on my 2 channel setup and stop with the headphones pretty much.
> 
> What about an iFi iDSD Micro BL or something?


 
 I haven't really heard a lot about the iFi products, but I might check them out. My top pick at the moment is probably the Jot. I am also considering Corda Classic and Jazz and NFB-11. 
 I think the Jot might be the best bang for the buck and I think that the general opinion is that it might be a good pairing with the LCD2, but it hasn't been available for the longest time on schiit eu and now that it is, I am not really that sure about it, oh decisions....


----------



## WayTooCrazy

martinrajdl said:


> I haven't really heard a lot about the iFi products, but I might check them out. My top pick at the moment is probably the Jot. I am also considering Corda Classic and Jazz and NFB-11.
> I think the Jot might be the best bang for the buck and I think that the general opinion is that it might be a good pairing with the LCD2, but it hasn't been available for the longest time on schiit eu and now that it is, I am not really that sure about it, oh decisions....


 
 Get it... utilize their return window if you don't like the pairing.


----------



## paruchuribros

How 





waytoocrazy said:


> I'm keeping it. I don't intend to keep it running or plugged in all the time at my desk, as I will keep the Deckard there. It does sound better with better instrument separation than the Cambridge or my LG V20... so, there is always that. I don't think I'll return it, as I think the Hugo 2 is too much for me. I want to work on my 2 channel setup and stop with the headphones pretty much.
> 
> What about an iFi iDSD Micro BL or something?


How is the mojo overall quality compared to AUDEZ'E Deckard?


----------



## WayTooCrazy

paruchuribros said:


> How
> How is the mojo overall quality compared to AUDEZ'E Deckard?


 
 The Mojo has a very clean presentation. It would be like a nice SS amp. The Deckard is like a very nice Tube amp. Where the LCD-2F comes in, the Deckard handles the LCD a bit better and synergizes a little better with it. It all depends on your taste and where you intend to use them. If I could only have one, and it was mainly for deskside listening, I would go with the Deckard.


----------



## Fastnbulbous

It sounded really nice with my Meier Corda Classic/Daccord. I'm selling it BTW (see my sig).


----------



## Sam Quentin

Today i got my Burson Soloist SL MKII for the Audeze LCD-2F.
 I ordered directly from Australia to Germany, took about a week.
 As far as i can say from first listening...i am impressed 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 Had a Marantz HD-DAC1 before, connected via USB and used the Marantz DAC.
 Now i go from Auralic Aries Mini's DAC via analog out to the Burson.
 Much wider Soundstage, better seperation and a very clean and dynamic Sound.
 After a long time of "try and error" with crap like usb conditioners, different DAC's and Amps, i think i reached the goal.
 The Music now with the Burson sounds just right.
  
 I thought about getting a Burson Conductor, but now i am glad i decided to go for the little brother.
 The Power it delivers is more than enough to drive the LCD-2.
 On High-Gain there is no need the Volume getting past 10 o'clock.


----------



## Craftyman

Currently have a Magni/Modi 1 powering my brand new LCD-2F. Needless to say it's not enough . Picking up a Lyr 2 next week for sure!


----------



## Ashah

craftyman said:


> Currently have a Magni/Modi 1 powering my brand new LCD-2F. Needless to say it's not enough . Picking up a Lyr 2 next week for sure!


 
 You will be happy with a Lyr 2 although tube rolling is an expensive hobby , I was lucky to have a lyr 2 for two months during Christmas season thanks to Amazon's generous return Policy , in the end I decided to keep keep the Audeze Deckard that I got from audeze  during their November sale.- Love the amplifier with the LCD 2 , I am thinking of picking up a Mjr2 for its balanced output and to use it as a preamp in my main system. which is in my living room


----------



## ahmadfaizadnan

have anyone paired the lcd2 with liquid carbon?


----------



## Odin412

oqvist said:


> Please chime in what your best amps are for this headphone or educated guesses compared to previous ortho experiences.



I use the Cavalli Liquid Carbon with the balanced cable and I really like that combo.


----------



## ahmadfaizadnan

Odin412 said:


> I use the Cavalli Liquid Carbon with the balanced cable and I really like that combo.



I second this!


----------



## moby1974

Budget £300=$400 this is utter max for me 

Would like dac/amp with XLR front out, neutral to slightly warm sound...but for that budget, not going to happen.

But in asking, any neutral/slightly warm amps with XLR front out, all I can see is Aune X7s, any others

thanks


----------



## xrk971

A desktop version of the Pocket Class A can be made with XLR out.  Many users have reported excellent match between this amp and LCD-2.  It is Single Ended Class A with slightly warm sound.


----------



## yufeng23

moby1974 said:


> Budget £300=$400 this is utter max for me
> 
> Would like dac/amp with XLR front out, neutral to slightly warm sound...but for that budget, not going to happen.
> 
> ...



If you're alright with secondhand goods, try getting the Schiit Mjolnir which I find has excellent pairing with the LCD-2. I waited patiently for mine and searched the forums everyday, eventually got one at SGD420, about £235. All the best!


----------



## moby1974

yufeng23 said:


> If you're alright with secondhand goods, try getting the Schiit Mjolnir which I find has excellent pairing with the LCD-2. I waited patiently for mine and searched the forums everyday, eventually got one at SGD420, about £235. All the best!




Thats a good price, all that I find is the V2.

Seen Schiit Audio Asgard 2 for £200, just need to read up on it, though I think its neutral sounding.


----------



## exsomnis

Consider the Schiit Jotunheim for $400. The Mjolnir does not have a built-in DAC and the Asgard does not have an XLR out. You can't go wrong with Schiit for Audeze cans, there's sufficient output power and the house sound is balanced and neutral. 

$400 for built-in DAC and XLR balanced output does severely limit your options though.

Think about getting a separate DAC too, that way you can upgrade either the DAC or the amp when the time comes. Because you know you'll be looking at upgrades sooner or later.


----------



## moby1974

lol I am bad enough with upgrading PC, this started of as a wanting to get back into music.

So start of the year bought Westone W40 IEMs and Cayin I5...now LCD-2f and wanting a good enough dac/amp to last a year or two..need to calm down.

Schiit Jotunheim is one I like, has all I need, just spent up, next thing is Aune X7, but no dac, or forget XLR and Aune X1s.


----------



## UntilThen

Heard LCD2.2 with Ragnarok. It's incredible. Almost bought the headphone but ordered ZMF Eikon instead.


----------



## Carcajou

yufeng23 said:


> If you're alright with secondhand goods, try getting the Schiit Mjolnir which I find has excellent pairing with the LCD-2. I waited patiently for mine and searched the forums everyday, eventually got one at SGD420, about £235. All the best!


I second this, the LCD-2 sound spectacular when paired with the Mjolnir. They're my favorite Planars to go with tubes.


----------



## BftdATL

Very happy with the pairing of my LCD-2's with the audio_gd NFB-28, the balanced output specifically has great bass impact and extension. Mostly use it with my LCD-3's since I've upgraded but it still is a good compliment for the 2's.


----------



## gLer (Nov 19, 2017)

WayTooCrazy said:


> I'm keeping it. I don't intend to keep it running or plugged in all the time at my desk, as I will keep the Deckard there. It does sound better with better instrument separation than the Cambridge or my LG V20... so, there is always that. I don't think I'll return it, as I think the Hugo 2 is too much for me. I want to work on my 2 channel setup and stop with the headphones pretty much.
> 
> What about an iFi iDSD Micro BL or something?


Just joined this thread having recently got my own LCD-2F (2016 Alu). I started off with an ifi Micro iDSD (silver not BL - not enough of a difference to justify an upgrade IMO) as my main desktop dac/amp as it has an amazing dac section and plenty of power in its clean AB-class amp. More recently I bought a Matrix HPA-3B balanced amp when I tested my iDSD with my brother’s Matrix and found the synergy to be incredible. Both are warm of neutral, and the Matrix gives the brilliant iDSD dac so much more headroom (and the option of powerful balanced output, which I take full advantage of).

FWIW the Deckard is OEMed by Matrix - in fact the Matrix HPA-3U is basically the Deckard with a few different components and a different dac section for half the price. The combination of the iDSD and HPA-3B essentially gives me a more powerful, more dynamic ‘Deckard’, with the option of going mobile with the ifi should I ever need to.

It’s a winning combination for the LCD-2F, and I’m hoping it will prove likewise for my incoming ZMF Atticus (giving me my endgame TOTL open/closed/desktop/portable headphone setup).

HTH.


----------



## marcan

For a very good amp for the LCD-2 I would suggest the audio-gd HE-9. Extremely precise, potent and musical. Bass is to die for.


----------



## GarageBoy

So I'm thinking of a nice used amp for my new lcd2 (my 6080otl amp is not going to pair well)

For the same price, I can get a chord mojo, deckard, or burson soloist SL+ some dac, probably a schiit. I picked up the lcd2s for the bass and mids. Which routes should I try? Thanks!


----------



## gLer

GarageBoy said:


> So I'm thinking of a nice used amp for my new lcd2 (my 6080otl amp is not going to pair well)
> 
> For the same price, I can get a chord mojo, deckard, or burson soloist SL+ some dac, probably a schiit. I picked up the lcd2s for the bass and mids. Which routes should I try? Thanks!


If you're going single-ended, the Deckard has no peer when it comes to powering the LCDs with beautiful music.


----------



## Àedhàn Cassiel (Dec 21, 2017)

I own an HD800 with Valhalla 2, and I'm getting the LCD2C as my complimentary pair (I kept some LCD2s for a month and then sold them in anticipation of the C release).

For the forseeable future, this is my endgame.

I'd like to try Stax, but it'll be way over my budget for a long time. I'd love to return the LCD2s and grab the 3s, but $600 is about the limit of what I feel comfortable putting in something that I know will eventually die. If Audeze's handling of driver death were more reliable I might even sell the HD800s to get them, but alas.

As things stand, unless or until I get to hear a real high-end amp with the HD800s this is my setup. So I do not need and probably don't want my LCD2s to sound neutral. That's why I went with the Cs instead of getting the $700 deal on 2Fs.

So I'll use the HD800s mainly for female vocals, acoustic stuff like City & Colour, stuff like The Mars Volta, CHON, Polyphia with lots of treble energy, and anything wide and airy ... and the LCD2's for stuff with heavy 'wall of sound' guitar effects and lots of bass impact. Nine Inch Nails, Swans, Tool, Mastodon ... stuff where raising the treble would also prevent me from blasting it as loud as I want to.

That said, what's the best amp I can get to power the LCD2s that ...

1. Is preferably under $500, the cheaper and better performance per dollar the better;
2. Focuses on improving the LCD2s in the areas where they already outperform the HD800s, rather than balancing them by complementing their weaknesses (liquidify the mids, improve bass slam and texture, who even cares about treble);
and as a bonus 3., would also pair decently with the HD800s as a second option for them?


----------



## gLer

Àedhàn Cassiel said:


> I own an HD800 with Valhalla 2, and I'm getting the LCD2C as my complimentary pair (I kept some LCD2s for a month and then sold them in anticipation of the C release).
> 
> For the forseeable future, this is my endgame.
> 
> ...


I can only speak from my own experience but the Matrix HPA-3B ($419) has incredible synergy with both my LCD (2F, but latest rev, so 2C will be similar), and the HD800. Its also balanced, which gives you more options with both headphones and more scalability as well. FWIW Matrix OEMs the Deckard for Audeze, and the 3B is essentially the balanced Deckard minus the dac.


----------



## Àedhàn Cassiel (Dec 21, 2017)

gLer said:


> I can only speak from my own experience but the Matrix HPA-3B ($419) has incredible synergy with both my LCD (2F, but latest rev, so 2C will be similar), and the HD800. Its also balanced, which gives you more options with both headphones and more scalability as well. FWIW Matrix OEMs the Deckard for Audeze, and the 3B is essentially the balanced Deckard minus the dac.



Awesome, based on reviews it sounds right in my alley.

My only, and I mean only reference for how much an amp can change a HP's sound is from going Magni 2 to Valhala 2 on HD800s ("Really really cool, I've never heard a soundstage this wide but some stuff is unlistenable" to "HOLY F@$#!"). 

*How much* improvement do you think I would see going from a Magni 2 to an HPA-3b for the LCD2s? If it's the last audio purchase I'll make for quite some time, is that the best place to put $380 with a Valhalla 2, Modi 2, LCD2C setup (vs. saving up for another amp)?


----------



## gLer

Àedhàn Cassiel said:


> Awesome, based on reviews it sounds right in my alley.
> 
> My only, and I mean only reference for how much an amp can change a HP's sound is from going Magni 2 to Valhala 2 on HD800s ("Really really cool, I've never heard a soundstage this wide but some stuff is unlistenable" to "HOLY F@$#!").
> 
> *How much* improvement do you think I would see going from a Magni 2 to an HPA-3b for the LCD2s? If it's the last audio purchase I'll make for quite some time, is that the best place to put $380 with a Valhalla 2, Modi 2, LCD2C setup (vs. saving up for another amp)?


Hi, to be honest I can’t really say that you’re going to get a “wow” moment at this level. I also have an ifi Micro iDSD, which to my ears matches the Matrix in most regards. I use the iDSD as a dac to feed the Matrix, but going from the iDSD (which is FAR more powerful than the Magni) to the Matrix gives me a notable refinement in the sound, but we’re talking lower order percentages. 

Once you reach a certain point of efficiency and power, you’re paying a lot of money for really incremental upgrades. For example, was I to upgrade to a $1000 amp, would it be twice as “good” as the Matrix. Nope, probably not even 10% better, but some people will pay a lot of money for that extra 5-10%, and pay much more than that ($2000+) for another 5 or 10. It’s the law of diminishing returns.

The main factor in all this is your headphones. Some headphones will take every bit of improvement you can give them, while others will hit their peak sound with mid-level gear. 

If it were me, I’d find a really solid source for your headphones that plays YOUR preferred music in a way that really ticks all the boxes, for you. It doesn’t matter what I or anyone else says - after all, I may not even listen to your type of music. For my needs, I’ve built up a system with a super solid source and two top-tier headphones (one open, one closed) that gives me as much flavour and variety that I need to listen to my music in the best way I can afford. I can throw hundreds, even thousands more into the system and maybe buy a few differences, but none that would justify the time and cost for *me*.

Once you get to the point where you don’t have to think about your equipment and just enjoy the music, then nothing else really matters.

(Sorry for the essay)


----------



## blargman

It seems the more I read about amps/dac's. I see some folks saying they are great, some say they suck. It's a difficult thing to wrap your head around. I just bought a Benchmark Dac1 USB for mine and I hear folks saying it's garbage.  meh. It's got enough power for my needs. We'll see.


----------



## exsomnis

blargman said:


> It seems the more I read about amps/dac's. I see some folks saying they are great, some say they suck. It's a difficult thing to wrap your head around. I just bought a Benchmark Dac1 USB for mine and I hear folks saying it's garbage.  meh. It's got enough power for my needs. We'll see.



The problem is that different people have different perceptions of what good audio is like. This is all influenced by their hearing limitations (ie, the older you are, the lower your high frequency hearing is), their preferences (bass-heads, treble-heads, etc) and their experience with audiophile audio (ie, they’re convinced that product A is the knees bees, not considering product B that they’ve never heard before and might very well be better in all respects). Not to mention the people just talking out of their asses for whatever reason.

Unfortunately, you cannot rely on people’s opinions for something as subjective as audio. You’re better off finding out for yourself what you like and what you think is good. Even if it means buying what you think is a dud, but even then you’ll usually find a willing buyer if it’s a popular item.



Àedhàn Cassiel said:


> I'd like to try Stax, but it'll be way over my budget for a long time. I'd love to return the LCD2s and grab the 3s, but $600 is about the limit of what I feel comfortable putting in something that I know will eventually die. If Audeze's handling of driver death were more reliable I might even sell the HD800s to get them, but alas.
> 
> 1. Is preferably under $500, the cheaper and better performance per dollar the better;
> 2. Focuses on improving the LCD2s in the areas where they already outperform the HD800s, rather than balancing them by complementing their weaknesses (liquidify the mids, improve bass slam and texture, who even cares about treble);
> and as a bonus 3., would also pair decently with the HD800s as a second option for them?



Post 2016, Audeze drivers have been updated for that reliability aspect. As a result we don’t see many if any reports of new driver failures. 

I was a victim with my LCD2.2Cs but the drivers were replaced under warranty to the 2016 fazors, which have been flawless. My 2016 LCD 3s are also still rocking it. It remains to be seen if this stays true in the long run but on what we’ve seen so far it looks like Audeze has gotten this fixed.

Based on your preference for rock/alternative you want an amp that can supply the power for dynamics and transients. The first rule of thumb there is to get an amp that can output between 1W and 4W at the 70 ohms that the new LCD 2C does. You will be covered then.

My preference is to go for anything Audio-gd but you can’t go wrong with Schiit, Deckard and all the other recommendations people have on here - provided the power requirements are met.


----------



## marcan

Actually the amp choice for the LCD is very sensitive. It will greatly benefit from a better amp. The bottom end, which is one of quality of the LCD, require a good and generous amp. Balanced having very good slew rate can be spectacular.
Trying several amp, I came to the conclusion that you should spend around 2k€ to get the LCD's to their full potential. While I never been convinced with their dac, Audi-gd amp is probably the best bang for the buck.
Now when you have a good amp, it can reveal the dac weakness...


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## LightBlue77 (Jan 9, 2018)

bumping this thread 
i just received fazors. next, about to buy an ifi micro ican, original edition from a guy in my town.
people on web say they are a good pairing.
Anyone has some extended experience with these together? seems fazors are easier to drive than non-fazor version.
Source will be fiio x3 and x5 3rd gen. fiio x3 has a good built-in amp, it greatly drives beyer's dt880 250ohm, better then the one in x5iii which i think doesn't count too much when it comes about amping. i think x3 is fiio's first dap, still sounds great after all these years, curious how audezes will output straight from it without additional amping, even though i don't have many expectations.
Thanks in advance.


----------



## jksoon

Speaking from experience, my Grace m9xx does well with the Audeze LCD-2.  I also have an Audio GD NFB-12. To my ears when using the LCD-2, the Grace is a bit sweeter on the upper frequencies while the Audio GD is a bit cleaner with more authority especially in the bass. When I want a bit more energy on the upper frequencies I use the Grace and when I want neutral, I go to the Audio GD.

I think the reason the Grace tends to work decent with the Audeze LCD-2 is that they are laid back and there is a dip in the upper mids in the LCD-2 that the Grace compensates for by being slightly brighter sounding. In other words, don't use dark sounding headphones with dark sounding amps or vice versa (bright with bright).  Hope this helps.


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## LightBlue77 (Jan 9, 2018)

thanks, makes sense to balance sound signatures.
ok, first impressions: magic sound straight from fiio x3. but i have nothing to compare with yet. i didn't try x5iii, nor pairing with any addition amp, only with headphones i already use.
anyway, the built in amp in x3 does at list gaining job, it may be set to low and high levels, on high gain, using volume at 23-25 out of 60 is enough! maybe 2-3 steps up for some recordings. and that's it. which make me wonder if i need an amp at all 
but i know, there is already a long discussion, it will sound even better with superior daps and good amping, i would under utilize the fazors if i stick to x3. but as semi-portable rig, might be great.

p.s.: great survival kit box


----------



## isoa4k

What do you guys think about the lcd2 pair with Audio GD R2R 11? And also, any tips for ordering from audeze website? Im ready to pull the trigger


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## LightBlue77 (Jan 10, 2018)

Update to my story: bought ifi micro ican first edition, it's an amp only and impressive how much power it gives on low gain. I set volume level at around 30-40%, is enough and i wonder what it would do on next 2 gain levels, +10 and 20 db. So, it clearly drives very well the lcd-2 fazors. in fact it gives a lot more power than needed. This also showed me how well first fiio x3 dap was made, it has a good built in amp and makes these headphones sing very well without ifi. Which i cannot say about x5iii, it's still good but pricey for what it offers as dap, less amping, i find few soundwise improvements, maybe there are but one pays extra for smart hardware and android.  All in all, good combo.


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## MiRaCL (Jan 13, 2018)

So finally joined the Audeze club today with a pair of used LCD-2.
Right now i'm using them with a Chord Mojo and having a blast. The audio quality of these headphones are impressive and i'm really liking them so far.

I'm looking at other dac & amps and reading through this thread. Would like to have a home setup since i mainly use the mojo for portable use.

I also got a Blue dragon XLR cable with the headphones.

Schiit Jotunheimen seems interesting. How is this paired with lcd2?

Any other recomendations(sub $1000)?


----------



## gLer

Hey guys - also looking for impressions of the LCD-2 with the Audio-GD R2R-11. I have a feeling the value of this amp/dac is only starting to hit home so hopefully more people will have impressions of this combo soon. I’m currently using the 2016 LCD-2F with an ifi Micro iDSD (as dac) and Matrix HPA-3B balanced amp but I reckon the R2R-11 will give this combo a serious run for its money.


----------



## pantsdeamor

Hi - I made the jump to LCD-2 (Fazor), and have narrowed down my future amp purchase to either the Schiit Jot, or Audeze Deckard (if you have a different suggestion, please feel free). I'd love to read a comparison, or recommendation on one or the other. I listen to mostly indie rock and electronica if it makes any difference.


----------



## Jack-A

Waiting for my LCD-2Cs to arrive next week. Is it a good idea to get the Schiit Magni 3 for $99? It puts out freaking 1.3 watts @ 50 ohms, that should be well enough.  I could add a DAC later(I have a Sabaj DA2 which is fine for me at the moment) maybe a Modi 2. What about Vali 2? This on wputs out 650mW @ 50 ohms. I really don't want to spend like 500 or 1000 bucks right now. These are gonna be my first REAL headphones ever, I've mostly owned IEM's only(well Meze 99 Classics that I have doesen't really require an amplifier, because of their efficiency)


----------



## isoa4k

I went for the AudioGD R2R11 dac/amp combo because in the end i realized that going with the magni modi stack was almost the same price but a quality downgrade. Next week i will get my brand new LCD2s and on day 22nd my R2R.


----------



## LightBlue77

Does anyone know if an integrated full speakers amp like marantz pm7005 would work great with lcd2f?
i'm undecided between this and burson soloist mkii. i know burson is great but it's amp only, whereas marantz has usb dac and is speakers amp too.
i know there's always the question if headphone output of an integrated amp uses same amplification circuit as for speakers or not. How may i find if the headphone output is properly amplified? besides actually listening to it  i assume i would need to see the blueprint but only a specialist could tell.


----------



## capetownwatches

gLer said:


> Hey guys - also looking for impressions of the LCD-2 with the Audio-GD R2R-11. I have a feeling the value of this amp/dac is only starting to hit home so hopefully more people will have impressions of this combo soon. I’m currently using the 2016 LCD-2F with an ifi Micro iDSD (as dac) and Matrix HPA-3B balanced amp but I reckon the R2R-11 will give this combo a serious run for its money.



So what do you reckon now about the R2R-11 / LCD-2 combo, Good Sir...?   

From my side, NFB-11.32 (Special Edition) plus LCD-2.2F plus just about any recording you care to listen to = AUDIOVANA!
I have a serious problem...


----------



## gLer

capetownwatches said:


> So what do you reckon now about the R2R-11 / LCD-2 combo, Good Sir...?
> 
> From my side, NFB-11.32 (Special Edition) plus LCD-2.2F plus just about any recording you care to listen to = AUDIOVANA!
> I have a serious problem...


I don't see it as a problem, it's the solution! 

R2R-11 with the LCD-2F is insane; likewise with the Atticus. Probably the best all-in-one I've heard to date; the amp and dac are worth the asking price on their own. Currently no desire to look further; I'd have to spend well over $1,000 to get better, possibly, and even then I don't know if I could justify the expense.


----------



## isoa4k

Thats good to hear. Ive just purchased a brand new pair of LCD2F latest rev. It arrives next wednesday  Also i pulled the trigger on a R2R11 delivered locally in Beijing and being brought to me on day 24th. Final cost was 285 euros so its unbeliavable worthy. I come from an German Maestro 8.35D with nonbetter amp than my meizu's pro5 one ( and hey, killer portable combo, i must say). So reading your impressions my hype skyrockets! Its gonna be a huge jump from my previous gear. Thanks!


----------



## gLer

isoa4k said:


> Thats good to hear. Ive just purchased a brand new pair of LCD2F latest rev. It arrives next wednesday  Also i pulled the trigger on a R2R11 delivered locally in Beijing and being brought to me on day 24th. Final cost was 285 euros so its unbeliavable worthy. I come from an German Maestro 8.35D with nonbetter amp than my meizu's pro5 one ( and hey, killer portable combo, i must say). So reading your impressions my hype skyrockets! Its gonna be a huge jump from my previous gear. Thanks!


You're going to love it. That's an end-game-worthy combination of gear. Enjoy!


----------



## pantsdeamor

Has anyone here tried vintage receivers with their LCD-2? So far, out of the Lyr, various Fiio amp/dacs, and the Cavali Liquid Fire, my Pioneer SX-850 has paired the best with my LCD-2f.


----------



## wellers73

pantsdeamor said:


> Has anyone here tried vintage receivers with their LCD-2? So far, out of the Lyr, various Fiio amp/dacs, and the Cavali Liquid Fire, my Pioneer SX-850 has paired the best with my LCD-2f.



I have a Sansui G-3500 as a backup amp, and it drives my LCD2s like a champ! It's a bit noisy (it's been a while since it was cleaned up), but sounds like it's putting a lot of power into them. I can't find any specs about the headphone output, but it must be considerable.


----------



## oqvist

Is a Yamaha rds-440 vintage?


----------



## bboris77

I just got a Burson Soloist SL Mk2 to use with my Audeze LCD2C. I upgraded from the Magni 3 which is a great entry-level amp, but the Soloist is just unreal. The biggest difference is the soundstage which is vastly more spacious on the Soloist. Burson is definitely a more neutral-sounding amp compared to the Magni 3 which is slightly warm and a bit more closed-in sounding. I have also tried the LCD2C with my Valhalla 2 and it was pretty good in terms of timbre and soundstage (better than the Magni 3), but it simply does not have the slam and the power of the Soloist. 
In conclusion, the Soloist has fantastic synergy with the LCD2C and I cannot recommend it high enough.


----------



## exsomnis

oqvist said:


> Is a Yamaha rds-440 vintage?


If you can only find reviews for it on audioreview.com, then yes. 



wellers73 said:


> I have a Sansui G-3500 as a backup amp, and it drives my LCD2s like a champ! It's a bit noisy (it's been a while since it was cleaned up), but sounds like it's putting a lot of power into them. I can't find any specs about the headphone output, but it must be considerable.



They really don't make headphone sections in integrated amps like they used to. I think it has to do with designing a separate headphone output stage from the gain stage, going to the headphones instead of the speakers - it's cheaper these days to just have a separate tack on headphone amp section, I suppose.


----------



## pantsdeamor

Well, I bit the bullet and bought a Jotunheim (mostly for the sake of future headphone purchases, as my Pioneer SX850 is plenty for the LCD-2). The Jot certainly ranks in the top 3 for amps I've tried with the LCD-2, among the WA6-SE and the SX850. I liked all three of these even better than the Chord Dave (crazy, right?).

The Jotunheim seems to widen the soundstage of the LCD-2 substantially, but you pay for it with nearly too-sharp treble on songs with already high peaks. The sound is extremely clear and crisp, but lacks in overall dynamics compared to the WA6 or SX850. The bass is a real treat on the Jot; it's impactful and crisp - even more-so than it already is on the LCD-2.

One thing I will recommend, is that if you decide to buy a Jot (and don't already own a DAC), buy one with the DAC module. It makes a huge difference compared to listening to the Jot on its own.


----------



## cirodts

I have AR M2 is enough to drive lcd2?


----------



## FrostyP

How does the HeadAmp Gilmore mk2 pair with the LCD2 and the Classic


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## Monstieur (May 19, 2018)

The entry level FiiO Q1 can drive the current LCD-2 / LCD2C models to a sustained peak of 115 dB. They only need around 25 mW at 1.33 Vrms.


----------



## gLer

Monstieur said:


> The entry level FiiO Q1 can drive the current LCD-2 / LCD2C models to a sustained peak of 115 dB. They only need around 25 mW at 1.33 Vrms.


Don’t make the mistake of confusing volume for control. The LCDs are easy to drive loud, but much harder to drive well.


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## Monstieur (May 19, 2018)

gLer said:


> Don’t make the mistake of confusing volume for control. The LCDs are easy to drive loud, but much harder to drive well.


The Q1 does not distort even at 150 ohms and can supply much more power than 25 mW. No meaningful improvement can be had over this. If it sounds different, the amp is coloured / defective.

It _will_ distort if the audio peaks at 120 dB SPL, which the Q1 cannot do on the LCD-2.


----------



## gLer

Monstieur said:


> The Q1 does not distort even at 150 ohms and can supply much more power than 25 mW. No meaningful improvement can be had over this. If it sounds different, the amp is coloured / defective.
> 
> It _will_ distort if the audio peaks at 120 dB SPL, which the Q1 cannot do on the LCD-2.


If that’s what you believe, that’s great. You’ll save yourself a lot of money.


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## Monstieur (May 19, 2018)

gLer said:


> If that’s what you believe, that’s great. You’ll save yourself a lot of money.


Given the age of the thread, many here probably have the earlier LCD-2 models with efficiencies as low as 93 dB / mW. Those literally require 10x the power (250 mW) to hit 115 dB SPL. I'm only talking about the current LCD-2 and LCD2C.


----------



## gLer

Monstieur said:


> Given the age of the thread, many here probably have the earlier LCD-2 models with an efficiency of 93 dB / mW. Those literally require 10x the power (250 mW) to hit 115 dB SPL. I'm only talking about the LCD2C and current LCD-2.


I had the LCD-2F (2016) for quite a while. My advice stands. You don’t have to break the bank either; my $350 Audio-Gd R2R-11 (and it’s sibling the NFB-11) have beautiful synergy with the LCD-2 (and LCD-3 for that matter).


----------



## Monstieur

gLer said:


> I had the LCD-2F (2016) for quite a while. My advice stands. You don’t have to break the bank either; my $350 Audio-Gd R2R-11 (and it’s sibling the NFB-11) have beautiful synergy with the LCD-2 (and LCD-3 for that matter).


Which amp failed to drive it properly?


----------



## gLer

Monstieur said:


> Which amp failed to drive it properly?


I’m not pointing fingers at any specific amps. My only point is that you can’t equate volume with control when it comes to current-hungry planars like the LCDs. That’s all. The Fiio might do a very good job indeed. I have no idea. The only point I was making is that adequate volume is not the only measure of how suitable an amp is for a given headphone. If that was the case there’d be no market for anything other than very basic amps. And it has nothing to do with colour - the very best high end amps add zero colour to the sound of a headphone. In fact that transparency is why they’re so highly valued.


----------



## Monstieur (May 19, 2018)

gLer said:


> I’m not pointing fingers at any specific amps. My only point is that you can’t equate volume with control when it comes to current-hungry planars like the LCDs. That’s all. The Fiio might do a very good job indeed. I have no idea. The only point I was making is that adequate volume is not the only measure of how suitable an amp is for a given headphone. If that was the case there’d be no market for anything other than very basic amps. And it has nothing to do with colour - the very best high end amps add zero colour to the sound of a headphone. In fact that transparency is why they’re so highly valued.


They are not current hungry anymore. The peak draw is ~20 mA at 115 dB SPL - well within the limits of most entry level amps. I agree on the colouration part, but an amp has to measure really bad on paper for it to even be audible.


----------



## spacequeen7

Monstieur said:


> They are not current hungry anymore. The peak draw is ~20 mA at 115 dB SPL - well within the limits of most entry level amps. I agree on the colouration part, but an amp has to measure really bad on paper for it to even be audible.


It's about tonality,it's like changing density  ,volume have nothing to do with it
On high gain LCD-.. just sound better and you can tell the difference ..yes you need good amp or you can toss in pre-amp


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## cirodts

a chord mojo is enough for lcd2c?


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## oqvist (May 19, 2018)

Monstieur said:


> Given the age of the thread, many here probably have the earlier LCD-2 models with efficiencies as low as 93 dB / mW. Those literally require 10x the power (250 mW) to hit 115 dB SPL. I'm only talking about the current LCD-2 and LCD2C.


Interesting so the new lcd-2 classic is easier to drive then the old one? My old lcd 2 pre fazor has always faired better on the power houses then supposedly more higher end amps. And very low end entry level Yamaha receiver beats them all from the speakers plugs. Very inconvenient space occupying solution I am trying the massdrop thx 789 aaa amplifier and hope I can remove it from service.

Excuse the spelling my phone has some virus I believe.


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## LightBlue77 (May 19, 2018)

I have lcd2 fazor edition. I drive them with a burson soloist mkii and i really wonder if it is necessary. I plug the headphones directly to lg v20 and i feel there is no audible degradation in sound quality. Maybe there is, but after a quick session i was pleased about the sound produced by v20. I also have fiio x5iii but i like more sound signature of v20. I plan to try it using a mojo with and without burson. Maybe it's the cable between v20 and burson, a ~12 euro gold plated hama cable, who knows. I also am in pursuit of a good dac for lcds, either portable or desktop but until then i think that indeed new lcds are way easier to drive then previous versions.
Until recently i had a ifi micro ican amp, which is way smaller but still very powerfull and transparent.
How do i test that the amp is doing what is suppose to? Beside talking to an sound/electronic engineer that might take a look and measure it just to be sure burson has no hidden flaws.


----------



## cirodts

LightBlue77 said:


> I have lcd2 fazor edition. I drive them with a burson soloist mkii and i really wonder if it is necessary. I plug the headphones directly to lg v20 and i feel there is no audible degradation in sound quality. Maybe there is, but after a quick session i was pleased about the sound produced by v20. I also have fiio x5iii but i like more sound signature of v20. I plan to try it using a mojo with and without burson. Maybe it's the cable between v20 and burson, a ~12 euro gold plated hama cable, who knows. I also am in pursuit of a good dac for lcds, either portable or desktop but until then i think that indeed new lcds are way easier to drive then previous versions.
> Until recently i had a ifi micro ican amp, which is way smaller but still very powerfull and transparent.
> How do i test that the amp is doing what is suppose to? Beside talking to an sound/electronic engineer that might take a look and measure it just to be sure burson has no hidden flaws.


I have the v20 and the sound is very good but, as soon as I have connected to the mojo the sound is exceptional, it also exceeds the sound of my AR M2.


----------



## LightBlue77

Well, it's supposed to sound better, mojo is dedicated dac and amp at around same price as v20. I listened to it once for a few minutes and remember it was very good but i was testing the ifi amp, was more focussed on the ability of it to power lcds.


----------



## Josh.33

Hello everyone names Josh and this is my first post! I found this forum while searching for a amp for my LCD-2 I just ordered  

I have a question regarding my demo experience at a world wide stero retail store. I demoed the LCD-2 on a McIntosh headphone amp/dac and I was blown away, considerably. However when I plugged them into their Marantz HD-DAC1 (that I was about to purchase lol) they suddenly sounded god awful! There was no base, the sound went from airy and alive to dead and unresponsive. Surely nothing like a $1000 dollar pair of phones :/ I asked the sales rep and he informed me it's the McIntosh sound that made them sing... To put things into perspective they sounded like a $20 dollar pair of headphones from Walmart on the Marantz! Dispite this I purchased a pair of lcd-2 second hand for $600 there a store demo 2017 model. 

My question now is what went wrong in the store, why did the McIntosh sound amazing yet the marantz sound awful and where does this leave me in regards to finding a suitable amp? I had contacted shiit and they recommended the Lyr 3 for the lcd-2. Thought? 

P.S. I'm new to higher end audio please be kind


----------



## isoa4k

I do have a brand new LCD2s 2018 paired with an Audio GD R2R11. This is my only hifi equipment but i do love the quality of this combo. Check it out!


----------



## Josh.33

Does anyone know of any amp/dac that sounds similar to the McIntosh? Or am I just chasing some far away dream lol also what went wrong with the lcd-2 and the Marantz?


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## LightBlue77 (Jun 16, 2018)

If the Marantz is just a dac without amplification, or just low amping, then this would be the reason of poor sound.
I have the fazor version and it sounds pretty good straight from a lg v20 smartphone. It is a version that doesn't need as much amping as classic versions. But i also use it with a ifi micro idsd and it is better of course.


----------



## exsomnis

Josh.33 said:


> My question now is what went wrong in the store, why did the McIntosh sound amazing yet the marantz sound awful and where does this leave me in regards to finding a suitable amp? I had contacted shiit and they recommended the Lyr 3 for the lcd-2. Thought?
> 
> P.S. I'm new to higher end audio please be kind



Headphone outs are not all created equal and there are varying types of headphones too. This means that you will get wildly varying results depending on the amp and headphones you connect to them.

Dedicated headphone amps have been designed to feed headphones and typically cater to the large range of headphone impedances and power requirements. High end headphone amps also cater to high end headphones which tend to have higher impedances and power requirements than normal headphones.

The LCDs are more power hungry than regular headphones - Audeze recommends 1-4 watts at the rated impedance of the cans. The LCD 2 in particular has a 70 ohm impedance. You will be able to get decent sound if there’s less power but for the most enjoyment you want that 1-4 watt at 70 ohms sweet spot.

The problem with headphone output sections on integrated amps is that they don’t always put much money (aka components and circuitry to make them sound nice and to drive different headphone impedances) into them. Their design emphasis was to drive speakers, not headphones.  There are some exceptions to this but it’s safe to say that you won’t get an optimal headphone experience from an integrated amp. The best example of this exception, of course, is something like the Schiit Ragnarok.

Schiit is one of those headphone amp makers that does cater to power hungry headphones for a very reasonable price point in comparison to the McIntosh and is well regarded in head-fi circles. I’m an Audio-gd fan myself. And there are other brands like Violectric/Lake People, Burson Audio, Cayin, Questyle and such that have large followings too.

You will want to go out and hear all these different amps out to see what you like as everyone’s taste and sense of hearing is different. Do not assume that what applies to someone on the forum applies to you to, that’s my advice. Go and form your own opinion about stuff and you can’t go wrong.


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## Josh.33 (Jun 18, 2018)

I appreciate your response I never considered that the integrated would be of a lesser quality since its a multi function unit. Today I received my *LCD-2* I purchased them used they were a demo model for $650 they are the 2017 edition. Everything's mint with all original items. Love the case haha that being said since I don't have anything to drive them I hooked them into my computer and they still sound better then the Marantz  still tho they are pretty dead, no punch no space no nothing. I been reading hundreds of pages here and other forums and at this point i'm more lost then when I started! All I know so far is they need power so I'm looking for* 2-3W a channel at 70ohms*. That leaves me with a *Lyr 3* but I read allot of opinions where the reviewer felt it lacked a wide sound stage. Wheres the *Lyr 3 owners* at? Also considering the *Oppo HA-1*  or the *Burson Audio Conductor* with USB. I think I might just randomly pick on at this point :/


----------



## seldenr

Hey Josh:  You are a lucky guy to have those headphones.  I have a pair of HiFiMan HE-500, and love them.  Right now I am using a Chord Mojo, and it sounds great.  However, before that I had a Woo Audio WA6SE, which replaced a Burson Soloist.  Something extremely pleasing about tubes (you can read about their merits, and demerits, all over this site and many others).  There are a lot of great headphone amps out there, and the Burson was great, but the Woo was a whole new category.  I've not tried the McIntosh, but tend to think if that's the sound you are looking for, then you really should try to hear an appropriate Woo Audio model.  They are very well regarded, and if you bought one and decided to try something else, you would find they sell really fast and maintain their value.  And yes, the headphone amp makes a huge difference in the sound of the headphones.  You won't notice a difference in amps with low quality headphones, but with any of the Audeze, you will notice a huge difference in the amplification.  Have fun!!!


----------



## Josh.33

Looks scary  I do believe I am going to be more interested in a hybrid or full tube I just remembered my Onkyo RZ series receiver has a headphone out and I been enjoying the LCD-2 much more! However its a very digital and harsh sound very tiring after a short period. Its amazing how much detail theses phones can produce but  I definitely need a more laid back amp and DAC haha


----------



## areek

Looking for urgent suggestions from LCD-2 owners please.
I was recently using a schiit bifrost and lyr 1 combo (bought 2nd hand) with my lcd-2 2017 drivers. Recently decided to sell the lyr because I wanted to get something wider and with better imaging & my parents are visiting USA for 2 weeks. My primary choice was a schiit Jotunheim. However, schiit did not accept any of my parents credit card due to assumptions of fraudulent acts (purchased with same card from amazon, B&H, adorama). They are only willing to accept varified paypal which our country does not have.
So, I am in urgent need of an amplifier for around 500$ that I can get preferably from amazon or other sites where they accept int. credit cards, will ship to us address within 7-8 days and compliments the LCD-2 & the bifrost DAC. I saw options like burson soloist sl mk2, matrix m-stage hpa-3b, rupert neve rnhp etc but at this moment I am unsure which one to get. Please gimme quick suggestions. Thank you.


----------



## Fastnbulbous

I've been really happy with my iFi iCAN Pro for it's versatility and power. The Micro iCAN might work for your budget, though I don't know that it's an upgrade from the Lyr. Cayin HA-1A amp is on Massdrop for $400 at the moment.


----------



## Lohb (Jul 12, 2018)

Anyone know if the nano iDSD BL has good synergy/dynamics/low-end presence with the new LCD2c ? I know the output is more aimed at IEMs..I know its best to have a good bit of headroom with planars, but I'm looking for something more transportable than the
bigger "swiss army knife" iDSD BL ...and the LCD2C seems waaaay easier to drive from previous models I've owned.....2.1 needed a lot more grunt to release the beast 

Will be running it balanced TRRS.


----------



## capetownwatches

areek said:


> Looking for urgent suggestions from LCD-2 owners please.
> I was recently using a schiit bifrost and lyr 1 combo (bought 2nd hand) with my lcd-2 2017 drivers. Recently decided to sell the lyr because I wanted to get something wider and with better imaging & my parents are visiting USA for 2 weeks. My primary choice was a schiit Jotunheim. However, schiit did not accept any of my parents credit card due to assumptions of fraudulent acts (purchased with same card from amazon, B&H, adorama). They are only willing to accept varified paypal which our country does not have.
> So, I am in urgent need of an amplifier for around 500$ that I can get preferably from amazon or other sites where they accept int. credit cards, will ship to us address within 7-8 days and compliments the LCD-2 & the bifrost DAC. I saw options like burson soloist sl mk2, matrix m-stage hpa-3b, rupert neve rnhp etc but at this moment I am unsure which one to get. Please gimme quick suggestions. Thank you.



Without knowing your preferences in terms of sound quality and music, it's impossible to recommend anything for you.

All 3 of the amps you mention are of high quality, and will drive a headphone perfectly well.

That said, of the 3, the Burson would be my _personal_ choice for the LCD2, and not by a small margin either.


----------



## areek

capetownwatches said:


> Without knowing your preferences in terms of sound quality and music, it's impossible to recommend anything for you.
> 
> All 3 of the amps you mention are of high quality, and will drive a headphone perfectly well.
> 
> That said, of the 3, the Burson would be my _personal_ choice for the LCD2, and not by a small margin either.


Interestingly enough, I found a guy selling audio gd r2r11 that he brought from china himself. who would have thought.


----------



## loungecat

*Audeze Lcd-2 pairing with Audio Gd NFB11. 28*. 
Looking at jumping in on one of these amp's to drive my Audeze Lcd-2. 
Anybody else running the same setup as this,would love to hear some thoughts on what I can expect from this beauty. 
Much appreciated


----------



## capetownwatches

loungecat said:


> *Audeze Lcd-2 pairing with Audio Gd NFB11. 28*.
> Looking at jumping in on one of these amp's to drive my Audeze Lcd-2.
> Anybody else running the same setup as this,would love to hear some thoughts on what I can expect from this beauty.
> Much appreciated



I run a 2017 NFB11.32 [35W PSU, 2xTCXO] with my LCD2F and to my ears it's a match made in heaven. I have listened to a friend's NFB11.28 and cannot hear any difference between the two. 

The amp is slightly warm of neutral, very detailed and more than powerful enough to drive the planars with authority (~1450mW @ 70 ohm). Mine has basically not been switched off since I got it, and continues to perform faultlessly.

At the price it's a bargain of note too. You really can't go wrong.


----------



## loungecat

capetownwatches said:


> I run a 2017 NFB11.32 [35W PSU, 2xTCXO] with my LCD2F and to my ears it's a match made in heaven. I have listened to a friend's NFB11.28 and cannot hear any difference between the two.
> 
> The amp is slightly warm of neutral, very detailed and more than powerful enough to drive the planars with authority (~1450mW @ 70 ohm). Mine has basically not been switched off since I got it, and continues to perform faultlessly.
> 
> At the price it's a bargain of note too. You really can't go wrong.


Thanks Capetownwatches..
I have read so many posts and watched a few YT videos of this amp. 
I eventually want to run it from my Win 10 laptop via Usb, I DOD find the ordering process a little weird as well, but it is, what it is I guess. 
I think my mind is made up on this.
Thank you for your reply.


----------



## gLer

capetownwatches said:


> I run a 2017 NFB11.32 [35W PSU, 2xTCXO] with my LCD2F and to my ears it's a match made in heaven. I have listened to a friend's NFB11.28 and cannot hear any difference between the two.
> 
> The amp is slightly warm of neutral, very detailed and more than powerful enough to drive the planars with authority (~1450mW @ 70 ohm). Mine has basically not been switched off since I got it, and continues to perform faultlessly.
> 
> At the price it's a bargain of note too. You really can't go wrong.


I second that. I’d say give the Audio-gd R2R-11 a think as well in case you like your sound more ‘organic’ but both amp sections are about the best you’ll find at this price range.


----------



## ucan

I'm really enjoying my LCD-2F's with the following:
FiiO X5iii>FiiO E12>iFi iCAN. I like to sit outside on the back porch, all year round, with a decent scotch, and the iCAN plugged in out there. I didn't buy the LCD-2's as a portable or desktop option...but a sitting-in-one-place with access to mains power outside option. Yeah, I get a great sound too from my igalvanic3.0>iDAC2>iCAN>LCD-2, but that requires a computer... don't use my laptop outside really, but that may be a 'better' sounding set-up.


----------



## Slashn77

Has anyone tried the Headamp Gilmore Lite Mk2? I am on the fence between getting a Lyr3 or Gilmore Lite Mk2(both $500) with my Mimby to drive my LCD-2c and HD 700's. never owned a tube amp before so a hybrid may be a good way to start. Vali 2 even? the Lyr 3 gets such amazing praise which is putting the idea into my head to try hybrid tube vs another SS like the Magni3


----------



## zimbao2339

Has anyone paired a JDS Labs El amp or The Element with their LCD2?


----------



## areek

Anybody tried the Massdrop THX AAA 789 with the LCD-2 paired with the R2R11 dac?


----------



## oqvist

Not with the R2R11 but hte THX AAA 789 does a great job with my LCD-2.


----------



## areek

That is great news for me as I have decided to spend the bucks on the 789. Which DAC pairing do you prefer most with the LCD-2 and the 789?


----------



## blackdragon87

Anyone have the JDS Labs element? Wanting to try this with an LCD 2 I have coming

Thanks


----------



## exhale

So i'm on the verge of  buying either the WooAudio WA6 or Klipsch Heritage Amplifier ... i'm really interested as to how these headphones sound via balanced output but my question is, if i were to go with the WooAudio, how much more time and money would i have to spend in tube rolling, to get the most out of it? I'm already exhausted by the Aune T1se and sonically, i love what i hear right now but there's this unshakeable feeling that i'm not powering them well enough (although my trusty DIY amp goes to 600mw/120ohm via SE). Which one of these 2 amps would suit the LCD2s better?


----------



## Andrey2019

Hi all! 
I have posted this questions on LCD2c thread - but had no specific propositions.
And as amp requirements for the LCD2c and LCD2 are similar I will ask this question again here:

Recently I have bought LCD2c and like them a lot! Now after reading a lot of information from this and other threads on this forum decided to join the discussion.
Now I have following audio setup:
FiioX7 mark 2 > Fiio A5 > Audeze LCD2classic

Bought it this autumn. And quite like how everything sounds.
But after reading this forum I have some new thoughts. A lot of people saying that if I will upgrade Fiio A5 amp with more expensive amp in this chain I will have much more quality from it.

I have listened several $500 amps in store and I think everything sound pretty much the same as my current setup:
Matrix HPA-3B (420$)
Nuprime HPA9 (600$)
Questyle CMA400i (700$) amp/dac
HiFiman EF100 (300$)

Also spent 2 hours listening CAYIN iHA-6 (700$) / in balanced and regular mode + Cayin iDAC-6 (700$) - and as for me it is still in the same sound quality range that my current setup is.

So now I have opinion that amps with price about 500$ and my current setup have similar quality. So I do not see a sense to buy something from things that I listed above...

*My question is: which amps (my budget is: 1000$ +/- $300) should I try to significantly increase sound quality from FiioX7 mark 2 and Audeze LCD2classic?*

Products from companies Monoprice, Burson Audio, Schiit not available in my city. (I need to try product before buying it, so it needs to be on sale in local store).
I searched for recently discussed WooAudio and Klipsch - prosucts of such companies are not available here too.
Same with Massdrop products - I will not be able to listen them before buying.

My current short list to try is:
Questyle CMA-600i (1300$ local price)
Audio-GD NFB-1AMP (600$ local price)

*If you will add some propositions - what I should add to my shortlist before visiting store - it will be great! Please note that some companies that I mentioned are not available in my city.*
Thanks!


----------



## spacequeen7

@Andrey2019 ..since you are in H20 ballpark ,might want to consider Gustard H20 ,this amp saved my LCD-2's (no-fazor ) from chopping block 
Synergy is outstanding


----------



## Andrey2019

spacequeen7 said:


> ..since you are in H20 ballpark ,might want to consider Gustard H20 ,this amp saved my LCD-2's (no-fazor ) from chopping block
> Synergy is outstanding


Thanks a lot for the advice. We have Gustard A20H DAC (DAC/AMP $1000) in shops. When I will visit stores - I will ask salesman about it too. But $1000 price is quite high indeed...


----------



## Andrey2019

By the way @spacequeen7 , I can see you are also using Topping D50 in your audio chain. Why is it so? 
Gustard A20H DAC is not capable as dac and you think I will need to add custom dac section to it?
Or you just have version of this amplifier without DAC inside? (In my local shops there are only amp + dac version).

From product description I can see that ballanced DAC part of this device is it is main advantage and main selling feature.


----------



## spacequeen7

Andrey2019 said:


> By the way @spacequeen7 , I can see you are also using Topping D50 in your audio chain. Why is it so?
> Gustard A20H DAC is not capable as dac and you think I will need to add custom dac section to it?
> Or you just have version of this amplifier without DAC inside? (In my local shops there are only amp + dac version).
> 
> From product description I can see that ballanced DAC part of this device is it is main advantage and main selling feature.



I'm sorry , didn't realized you were looking for all in one unit since you also mention stand alone amps,H20 is an amp only and yes it's little pricey considering you would want to "pimp your ride" and get third party discrete opamps ,Questyle CMA-600i sounds like a descent choice ,see if you can audition some of the gear you mentioned ,there is also ESS/AKM part dilemma that you might consider and evaluate


----------



## Andrey2019

Hi @spacequeen7 

Seems like in our shops this unit with DAC+AMP is for sale https://www.amazon.com/GUSTARD-A20H-AK4497EQ-Headphone-Amplifier/dp/B01M5DA9V6
And it has both DAC and AMP inside it. Cost here about $1000.
And, yes, I will definitely audition such expensive device before purchase. Otherwise  there is no sense to pay such huge amount of money 

Thanks for the suggestion 

By the way, just to continue discussion. I saw that Questyle in this November produced new upgraded version of CMA600i: Questyle Audio CMA Twelve (review here: https://headphone.guru/questyle-aud...amplifier-wireless-receiver-look-ma-no-wires/).

So it is interesting - how is it sounds... 
I think it will be available in shops soon (I have already asked salesman to check). So it might be cool thing too


----------



## exhale

Andrey2019 said:


> Hi @spacequeen7
> 
> Seems like in our shops this unit with DAC+AMP is for sale https://www.amazon.com/GUSTARD-A20H-AK4497EQ-Headphone-Amplifier/dp/B01M5DA9V6
> And it has both DAC and AMP inside it. Cost here about $1000.
> ...



I'd definitely look for an amp which outputs more power (mW) around 64ohm. The LCD-2s need somewhere around 1,5W (1500mW) in 70ohm (IIRC, if not, someone please correct me) to be properly "fed". I'm also in the market for a new amp and so far, my eyes have stopped at Burson Conductor V2(the + version is more expensive but it also adds a DAC; the normal V2 is amp only), Klipsch Heritage, WooAudio WA6(SE) but with different tubes and a few models from Schiit (you can go check their european store, they have some decent products). Just as you, i'm also chasing balanced output (which my current amp lacks) but this shouldn't be a primary focus, if you could get an amp that delivers the necessary power via normal 6,3mm, like the Conductor does. At the same time, i've read about some people complaining about a constant buzz in their headphones, when using the Conductor v2, due to it's stupidly huge output power (around 8 full Watts in 32ohm!!!).


----------



## Andrey2019

Hi @exhale 
Thanks for suggestion!

Unfortunately - as I mention in initial question Monoprice, Burson Audio, Schiit, WooAudio and Klipsch are not available in my city. 
Buying product in internet without auditioning it - too much gamble for me... So I'm searching for different options.


----------



## mushin1989

The Emotiva A-100, as others have mentioned, will pretty much definitely do the job. However, it is massive compared to most other amps you might grab, especially if you don't have any need to drive speakers.


----------



## evolutiontheory

I have a Fiio Q5 and just ordered LCD2C. Can it drive the LCD2C via the 3.5 mm port? Any suggestions to make it work other than getting an all new balanced cable?


----------



## psuKinger (Dec 20, 2018)

Monstieur said:


> The entry level FiiO Q1 can drive the current LCD-2 / LCD2C models to a sustained peak of 115 dB. They only need around 25 mW at 1.33 Vrms.





gLer said:


> Don’t make the mistake of confusing volume for control. The LCDs are easy to drive loud, but much harder to drive well.





Monstieur said:


> The Q1 does not distort even at 150 ohms and can supply much more power than 25 mW. No meaningful improvement can be had over this. If it sounds different, the amp is coloured / defective.
> 
> It _will_ distort if the audio peaks at 120 dB SPL, which the Q1 cannot do on the LCD-2.



I happen to own a pair of LCD-2C's, and also have available both a Fiio Q1 and a Schiit Jotunheim to drive them with.  I have not spent any time A-B comparing the LCD-2Cs via both power sources, but I have done at least a little A-B comparing of a much cheaper Planar Magnetic (HiFiMan HE-4XX) on both power sources.  The HiFiMan are definitely a step (or three) down, performance wise, AND this isn't apples-to-apples (35 ohms vs. 70, 93 db/wm vs 101), but in my brief A-B comparisons the HiFiMan 4XX's don't benefit *THAT* much from being on my Jot vs. the Fiio.  It's certainly a "law of diminishing returns" improvement.  I will try to spend some time comparing the Audeze's on both, because I'm interested now in what I learn.

That said, Audeze's own guidance on this is as follows:
"Any good amp with an output of 1/2 watt at the headphone's rated impedance should have no trouble driving them.  A good rule of thumb is that if you get sufficient volume with your gain knob set between 1 and 2 o'clock, the amp has enough power to drive the phones."
Per: https://audeze.zendesk.com/hc/en-us...ell-if-an-amp-can-drive-my-Audeze-Headphones-

Some simple P = V^2/R math shows that my My Schiit Jot, unbalanced, should be providing just about 0.57 Watts at 70 ohms (based on assuming 6.32 volts, consistent with what I calculated for the advertised ratings at 50 ohm and 16 ohm).
Conversely, if I assume something like 2.6 volts for my Fiio (based on what I calculate for the advertised values at 32 ohms and 150 ohms), the Fiio only has about 0.1 Watts to give... which is well below the guidance/rule of thumb provided by Audeze of wanting 0.5 watts at rated resistance.

I *think* I'm getting a balanced XLR cable from periapt for my Audeze's for Christmas... which should allow my Jot to put ~2.1 watts into 70 ohms (based on 12.2 volts, consistent with the ratings advertised for 32 ohm and 50 ohm).  Which will give me a little bit more fun A-B comparing to try...

Also, it may be worth noting that Audeze's own amp, the Deckard, is rated to put out 1.73 watts into 70 ohms... that might tell us something about what Audeze themselves think is truly optimal for highest performance.
https://audeze.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/115001634403-What-is-the-Output-Power-of-the-Deckard-


----------



## psuKinger

Monstieur said:


> The entry level FiiO Q1 can drive the current LCD-2 / LCD2C models to a sustained peak of 115 dB. They only need around 25 mW at 1.33 Vrms.





gLer said:


> Don’t make the mistake of confusing volume for control. The LCDs are easy to drive loud, but much harder to drive well.





Monstieur said:


> The Q1 does not distort even at 150 ohms and can supply much more power than 25 mW. No meaningful improvement can be had over this. If it sounds different, the amp is coloured / defective.
> It _will_ distort if the audio peaks at 120 dB SPL, which the Q1 cannot do on the LCD-2.



Follow-up to my previous post, I spent a brief amount of time tonight A-B comparing my Audeze LCD-2C's off the two different DAC/AMP combo units mentioned (Portable fiio Q1 and desktop Schiit Jotunheim).
I tested on two very different songs.  A 16/44.1 lossless FLAC rip (using Exact Audio Copy) of the hard rock song "Song for a Broken Mosque" by the band Kyng for a heavy, hard-hitting, sludgy, "wall of sound", and a 24/96 FLAC purchase from HDTracks of Norah Jones song "Sunrise" for a more nuanced, strings+vocals track.

The difference between the two DAC/AMPs was significantly more noticeable on the Audeze LCD-2C then I've observed in A-Bing the much cheaper HiFiMan HE-4XX.  
Note: I didn't have any means to test whether the difference I'm hearing is the differences between the two DACs or the two Amps (or what % it is of both).  I had them both act as both DAC and Amp.

As was previouly noted.  The Fiio was plenty powerful for achieving "loud listening volumes."  But the similarities ended there.  It's hard to describe the difference I'm hearing in a way that won't make a non-believer's eyes roll, but for both songs the Jot sounds more “open” and “expressive”. And I know how that reads/sounds to a skeptic. For lack of better vocabulary to express what I'm hearing, and trying to be as objective as I can, the sounds off the fiio all sound like their emanating from the same “elevation” (vertical height as measured from the floor). The Jot has more sounds coming at my ears from more/varied elevations inside the earcups. Less concrete and more subjectively, the fiio sounds like the sounds are being squeezed thru a tube of toothpaste, and the Jot sounds like it's giving the music more room to “flow down the pipe” to my ears.

Norah's vocals are excessively forward on the fiio. The nuances of the strings and piano are considerable more recessed and in the background. The Jot is a much more balanced expression of the music, which to me sounds more like what Norah probably intended.  Just to add a little more variety in the mix, for the Norah Jones song, I added my Sennheiser HD-6XX into the mix.  In order of preference, from worst (#4) to best (#1), my preference was:
4) Sennheiser HD-6XX off Fiio Q1
3) Audeze LCD-2C off Fiio Q1
2) Audeze LCD-2C off Schiit Jot
1) Sennheiser HD-6XX off Schiit Jot


FWIW, in my A-B comparison time, my experience agrees with what @gLer descried... the fiio did not fail to deliver adequate power in terms of achieving loud listening volumes, but sound quality was substantially improved when using the Jotunheim.  TIFWIW.


----------



## gLer

psuKinger said:


> Follow-up to my previous post, I spent a brief amount of time tonight A-B comparing my Audeze LCD-2C's off the two different DAC/AMP combo units mentioned (Portable fiio Q1 and desktop Schiit Jotunheim).
> I tested on two very different songs.  A 16/44.1 lossless FLAC rip (using Exact Audio Copy) of the hard rock song "Song for a Broken Mosque" by the band Kyng for a heavy, hard-hitting, sludgy, "wall of sound", and a 24/96 FLAC purchase from HDTracks of Norah Jones song "Sunrise" for a more nuanced, strings+vocals track.
> 
> The difference between the two DAC/AMPs was significantly more noticeable on the Audeze LCD-2C then I've observed in A-Bing the much cheaper HiFiMan HE-4XX.
> ...


Great post and very useful observations. I was a skeptic myself for years before actually hearing such differences for myself, especially with the LCDs. The differences can vary from subtle to startling, but they’re always there. I tear my hair out now when I see people claiming that as long as you give a headphone enough power it’s properly amped. Just doesn’t work that way in the real world, and I have no idea why, nor do I claim to understand the science behind it. I can only describe what I’m hearing.


----------



## newaudio46

I just got my lcd2f 2016 model. I’ve used my denon av to try them out and the sound quality is not all that impressive. Is it just me or is the the denon?

I have a chord mojo, I’m just waiting for Apple camera adapter to come so I can use it, dontuo guys think this will make an improvement?


----------



## tamleo (Dec 27, 2018)

newaudio46 said:


> I just got my lcd2f 2016 model. I’ve used my denon av to try them out and the sound quality is not all that impressive. Is it just me or is the the denon?
> 
> I have a chord mojo, I’m just waiting for Apple camera adapter to come so I can use it, dontuo guys think this will make an improvement?


Many say the LCD2s are not amp-nitpicking headphones. However I don't think it is really true in my case. The LCD2s go from OK headphones to great headphones depended on what amp they are plugged-in. I think the HD800s go from terrible ones.
I like my LCD-2s to pair with warm to neutral ss amps. SS amps with rich-mids and natural-sounding characteristic will show the full potency of the LCD2s.


----------



## blackdragon87

I have a Apex Hi-fi Butte amp. It sounds great with my LCD2


----------



## newaudio46

I will just have to wait for my cable for the mojo to come. Most of not all of the people ok the forum say that it can power the lcd2 well and also sounds very good as well


----------



## gLer

newaudio46 said:


> I will just have to wait for my cable for the mojo to come. Most of not all of the people ok the forum say that it can power the lcd2 well and also sounds very good as well


Don’t mean to be a party pooper but you’re definitely not going to make the most of your LCD-2 with a Mojo. As a dac it’s fine but you’ll need a more powerful amp to control them properly and give them the power they really need to shine. Doesn’t have to be anything too fancy. You should easily find something in the Mojo’s price range. In fact an Audio-gd R2R-11 or NFB-11 costs less than a Mojo, sounds just as good, and has enough power to drive your LCDs perfectly.


----------



## paruchuribros

newaudio46 said:


> I will just have to wait for my cable for the mojo to come. Most of not all of the people ok the forum say that it can power the lcd2 well and also sounds very good as well


I do connect R3 usb c -> micro usb - >Mojo - >3.5 mm to LR splitter->Audeze Deckard ->  best sound quality for me


----------



## capetownwatches

gLer said:


> Don’t mean to be a party pooper but you’re definitely not going to make the most of your LCD-2 with a Mojo. As a dac it’s fine but you’ll need a more powerful amp to control them properly and give them the power they really need to shine. Doesn’t have to be anything too fancy. You should easily find something in the Mojo’s price range. In fact an Audio-gd R2R-11 or NFB-11 costs less than a Mojo, sounds just as good, and has enough power to drive your LCDs perfectly.



I have to agree with my esteemed colleague on this one - the LCD2 will certainly reward more current than the Mojo can deliver, and your ears will thank you.


----------



## newaudio46

At the moment my budge has been spent.I do appreciate that a more powerful amp would be better but I needed a more portable option and the mojo was the best I could find for the price point.

I’m just hoping that it will sound better out of the mojo than the denon. Is that a strong possibility?


----------



## evolutiontheory

Anyone tried LCD2C with Fiio Q5? Not all that impressive to me. Thinking about buying AM5 module at this point. Suggestions?


----------



## evolutiontheory

newaudio46 said:


> At the moment my budge has been spent.I do appreciate that a more powerful amp would be better but I needed a more portable option and the mojo was the best I could find for the price point.
> 
> I’m just hoping that it will sound better out of the mojo than the denon. Is that a strong possibility?


Did you consider Fiio Q5? I am in the same boat; looks like AM5 module can drive LCD2s but then again you are dealing with new cables etc.


----------



## newaudio46

When I get the cable I will report back and let you know. I did, but I decided to go with the mojo.

My denon sounds ok but it’s quite base heavy, I don’t know if it’s the am


----------



## gLer

newaudio46 said:


> At the moment my budge has been spent.I do appreciate that a more powerful amp would be better but I needed a more portable option and the mojo was the best I could find for the price point.
> 
> I’m just hoping that it will sound better out of the mojo than the denon. Is that a strong possibility?


If it’s portability you need, the ifi Micro iDSD BL has much more power and (many say) sounds better than the Mojo. It also costs about the same.


----------



## newaudio46

I had a look and it was £600. I got the mojo for £280 open box. The other was out of my price range at the time


----------



## LightBlue77

That ifi is not portable, it is too big.


----------



## ucan

LightBlue77 said:


> That ifi is not portable, it is too big.


Well, I don't really use my LCD-2's in the true portable sense...I go somewhere in my house, sit on a comfy chair, plug my ifi ICAN SE into the wall nearby. I don't find open-backed headphones to be 'portable' anyway unless I am going somewhere really quiet: the woods, maybe, the backyard too. For the most part, as long as I can use a DAP and a plug-in HP amp, I am happy. I could take my laptop and sit in that same chair in my home, and get the same experience, but the laptop is simply too much of a distraction. So, no, for me it is 100% portable DAP + plug-in amp + open-back headphones in the one environment where I do most of my listening: my home.


----------



## newaudio46

So I got my cable for my I phone. is a big improvement over my denon. Does anyone know why this is as the denon must be sending out more power than the mojo? Or is it more to do with the dac?

When I can I will get down to an av shop and test out a desktop amp but that might not be the best idea because I can’t afford one and if the quality is better I will want it


----------



## gLer

newaudio46 said:


> So I got my cable for my I phone. is a big improvement over my denon. Does anyone know why this is as the denon must be sending out more power than the mojo? Or is it more to do with the dac?
> 
> When I can I will get down to an av shop and test out a desktop amp but that might not be the best idea because I can’t afford one and if the quality is better I will want it


AVR's like the Denon usually have poor headphone-out circuits with very high impedance, which causes all sorts of wonky sound especially in the bass region. It's not a matter of power but rather high impedance and noise in the circuit. A desktop amp will definitely sound better with the LCDs, so go easy...


----------



## newaudio46

To be honest, I think it sounded better out of the i phone than the denon, but with the mojo it sounds more open, less base more separation and wider soundstage.


----------



## newaudio46

Any recommendations for an amp to go with my chord mojo and lcd2. After a good few hours of listening, I’m coming to the conclusion that it might not have enough power. I know it has been said before. I don’t t know if it’s the head phones or the tracks themselves, but on some tracks I find I can dectect some slight distortion on vocals or when multiple instruments are being played at once. And also on some tracks they don’t seem as open as others


----------



## paruchuribros

newaudio46 said:


> Any recommendations for an amp to go with my chord mojo and lcd2. After a good few hours of listening, I’m coming to the conclusion that it might not have enough power. I know it has been said before. I don’t t know if it’s the head phones or the tracks themselves, but on some tracks I find I can dectect some slight distortion on vocals or when multiple instruments are being played at once. And also on some tracks they don’t seem as open as others


I do use Audeze Deckard with it and l love the audio nirvana with the combo


----------



## newaudio46

I’m in the U.K. and I can’t see any for sale, do you know how much they retail for and also why are they so good the the lcd2?

I do love the headphone overall but i think I could get s bit more out of them, it could be how some of the tracks are mastered rather that the mojo 100%.


----------



## viveksaikia22

newaudio46 said:


> Any recommendations for an amp to go with my chord mojo and lcd2. After a good few hours of listening, I’m coming to the conclusion that it might not have enough power. I know it has been said before. I don’t t know if it’s the head phones or the tracks themselves, but on some tracks I find I can dectect some slight distortion on vocals or when multiple instruments are being played at once. And also on some tracks they don’t seem as open as others



Just checking if you have found an amp for your Mojo + LCD2 combo?
I have a Mojo and I will be receiving an LCD2 soon. I may soon end up in your position and my amp hunt may start soon.


----------



## marcan

I have an audio-gd HE-9 with my LCD2C and LCD2rev2 and this one is a killer. It really gives the power and precision that perfectly match the audeze. Bass is particularly impressive.


----------



## nephilim32

I believe firmly that a Burson Soloist SL is an awesome pairing. 

I use this amp to drive my LCD XC's . Fantastic!! 
Major power flexibility.


----------



## Terozzzz

What balanced tube amp you recommend in 300-500$ class for LCD 2C? Currently using Audio-GD 28.28 amp dac.


----------



## OldSkool

I had been using a Woo WA2 to power two headphones over the last couple of years, HD800 and LCD2F. The WA2/HD800 is a tremendous pairing, but the WA2/LCD2...not so much.

Decided to add a dedicated SS balanced amp for the LCD2 and chose a Schiit Mjolnir. This combo is blowing me away. The MJ has such total control over the Audeze and is showing me effortless power and a level of detail retrieval that is very satisfying.

The LCD2's are my "change of pace" cans and I'm thrilled that the Audeze musicality has returned.

My .02, YMMV.


----------



## Terozzzz

I have been thinking about Schiit Mjolnir and i might pull the trigger on it  Even tho i got that Audio-GD NFB 28.28 but i can use it as an DAC for Schiit Mjolnir.


----------



## capetownwatches

Terozzzz said:


> I have been thinking about Schiit Mjolnir and i might pull the trigger on it  Even tho i got that Audio-GD NFB 28.28 but i can use it as an DAC for Schiit Mjolnir.


I'm curious as to why you assume the Schiit amplifier will be somehow superior to the Audio-gd? I've heard both and to my ears the Chinese product sounded significantly more sorted.


----------



## Terozzzz

capetownwatches said:


> I'm curious as to why you assume the Schiit amplifier will be somehow superior to the Audio-gd? I've heard both and to my ears the Chinese product sounded significantly more sorted.


Well it is not that but that mjolnir has TUBEs  Im looking for second amp beside to Audio-GD. I know NFB28.28 is killer good amp/dac i just want "colored" sound too. NFB28.28 is clean and sharp as katana (samurai sword)  So i am keeping Audio-GD too. Except maybe upgrade it to a  Audio-GD Master 11 or so this year.


----------



## capetownwatches

Terozzzz said:


> Well it is not that but that mjolnir has TUBEs  Im looking for second amp beside to Audio-GD. I know NFB28.28 is killer good amp/dac i just want "colored" sound too. NFB28.28 is clean and sharp as katana (samurai sword)  So i am keeping Audio-GD too. Except maybe upgrade it to a  Audio-GD Master 11 or so this year.



I'm not sure that a hybrid amp will do it for you. Sounds like you're after a pure tube experience. The Mjolnir sounded solid state to me and I would've guessed that it is in a blind test!


----------



## Terozzzz

AHaa ok. Yes im after that extended soundstage and buttery sound. I might go as high as 1-2K$ as price goes.


----------



## leesure

Terozzzz said:


> AHaa ok. Yes im after that extended soundstage and buttery sound. I might go as high as 1-2K$ as price goes.


I have owned both an A-GD balanced amp and a Mjolnir. I much preferred the MJ. More dynamic and I appreciate the ability to contour the sound with the tubes. That said, if you’re looking for that really warm lush tubey sound, it’s tough to come by in a balanced tube amp at your price point. I really like my Woo WA22, but it’s $2k and still not what I’d call lush. That sound you’re after usually comes from SE tube amps like the Ampsandsound Kenzie. The Kenzie is my go to amp for tube warmth.


----------



## leesure

https://www.ampsandsound.com/products/kenzie-headphone-amp


----------



## areek

I have been using the Massdrop THX AAA 789 for a month now and can say that this, paired with an Audio-GD R2R11 is superior to everything that I have listened to. THe R2R11 amp sound doesn't even come close. The difference can even be heard from the outside when someone else is using it.


----------



## blackdragon87

zimbao2339 said:


> Has anyone paired a JDS Labs El amp or The Element with their LCD2?



interested to know as well. looking at the element specifically


----------



## viveksaikia22

I tried a couple of amps like Rupert Neve RNHP, Chord Mojo, Jotunheim with my LCD2.2 but finally settled with a Violectric V200. It is a marriage made in heaven. The power of the V200 drives these planar magnetics with absolute control. I can easily recommend this amp over the above mentioned ones.


----------



## newaudio46

I’m using the chord mojo, I’ve been using it for around two months now and I can say I’m very happy with it. Maybe that’s because it’s quite portable.


----------



## MiRaCL

I was using a mojo as well up until recently. Bought a questyle cma-400i and in my ears this is a perfect match for the lcd-2's. Still using the mojo when I'm not at home.


----------



## viveksaikia22

newaudio46 said:


> I’m using the chord mojo, I’ve been using it for around two months now and I can say I’m very happy with it. Maybe that’s because it’s quite portable.


Chord Mojo is quite a capable amp in itself. I preferred it over Jotunheim. Mojo has more finesse in the top end. The Mojo DAC is really nice with almost warm sound but with great detail. The V200 really pairs well with Mojo, giving the LCD some additional power for a more controlled bass. The LCD2.2 works quite well with lower powered amps as well but with the additional power, the sound just transforms to another level.


----------



## AlexKalopsia

Are there decent headphones amps that are around 200-300$ and that don't look horrible? (yes, I do care also about the looks  )


----------



## evolutiontheory

Button fun vivid and little dot mk2 worked well for me on LCD2C


----------



## LightBlue77

why should you care about the looks? 
ifi micro ican (or micro idsd with dac) looks nice and is porta...transportable.
burson soloist also.
these are devices i had, drive very well the lcds and are within your budget.


----------



## AlexKalopsia

Well, it's more like I have my sound system in my living room nice and tidy in black finish, and I want simple shapes and looks. Many of the ones I see are silver. Thanks for the tips so far though!


----------



## LightBlue77

break the pattern, it's boring


----------



## seldenr

Regarding your request for decent amp plus good looks, I understand!  If you are a big tube fan like me, (loved my Woo WA6-SE and regret selling it!), and want to stay around $200, you might look at this:  https://www.massdrop.com/buy/little...ontent=1553600504083.115956759934194043189282  .  I've not tried one, but read about them over the years.  With a tube input stage and SS output, it has high power, and at least in my opinion, a nice looking amp.

Hope that helps!


----------



## AlexKalopsia

seldenr said:


> Regarding your request for decent amp plus good looks, I understand!  If you are a big tube fan like me, (loved my Woo WA6-SE and regret selling it!), and want to stay around $200, you might look at this:  https://www.massdrop.com/buy/littledot-tube-amp?utm_placement=0&referer=3WJN3T&mode=guest_open&utm_campaign=Automated Daily Promotional 2019-03-26&utm_source=SparkPost&utm_medium=email&utm_term=Daily Promotional&utm_content=1553600504083.115956759934194043189282  .  I've not tried one, but read about them over the years.  With a tube input stage and SS output, it has high power, and at least in my opinion, a nice looking amp.
> 
> Hope that helps!


That looks very interesting, unfortunately I'd have to pay quite some taxes to get it to EU  But thanks for the tip, it does look very nice!


----------



## spookanide (Jun 1, 2019)

AlexKalopsia said:


> That looks very interesting, unfortunately I'd have to pay quite some taxes to get it to EU  But thanks for the tip, it does look very nice!


Just look the littledot up on ebay. You can also consider the Schiit Asgard:
https://www.schiit.com/public/uploa...humbnail_product_mobile/Asgard-2-top-1920.jpg

I don't own one but I hear it pairs well with the LCD2 if you're looking for just a touch of warmth, or rather not losing the LCD2s character.



tamleo said:


> Many say the LCD2s are not amp-nitpicking headphones. However I don't think it is really true in my case. The LCD2s go from OK headphones to great headphones depended on what amp they are plugged-in. I think the HD800s go from terrible ones.
> I like my LCD-2s to pair with warm to neutral ss amps. SS amps with rich-mids and natural-sounding characteristic will show the full potency of the LCD2s.



Agreed 100%. I used the ican SE for a while at home and wanted a signature more in between the bass switch and not so overwhelming.
I traded in my HE400i and ican SE for a questyle CMA400i to power the LCD2 and it's been a regret since. I did audition the combo on a different pair of LCD2, but at that point I wasn't spoiled yet by the iCan SE pairing I used at home for a while with my LCD2f 2016.

I'm currently eyeballing the schiit asgard and violectric v200. Any ideas if these will cut what I'm looking for?


----------



## Lohb

ican SE...., I found the treble on it to dominate as volume was ramped up.


----------



## spookanide

Lohb said:


> ican SE...., I found the treble on it to dominate as volume was ramped up.


I didn't get that impression on mine, but there was some grain to it from what I remember that I don't see as a positive. I just got spoiled by the low end as I often used one bass tick on the amp, but I'd rather have a less overwhelming signature. I currently quite like the littledotmk2 that I do still have, so that's where the potential upgrade to a violectric V200 comes in.


----------



## Lohb

spookanide said:


> I didn't get that impression on mine, but there was some grain to it from what I remember that I don't see as a positive. I just got spoiled by the low end as I often used one bass tick on the amp, but I'd rather have a less overwhelming signature. I currently quite like the littledotmk2 that I do still have, so that's where the potential upgrade to a violectric V200 comes in.


Yep, slight graininess as well. Wonder if anyone paired the Emotiva BasX A-100 amp with Audeze cans, its SE front output is the same as the speaker output watts if you adjust it inside...crazy amout of power more matched to old school LCD-2.1 and HFM HE-6 !!


----------



## Amish

Over the years I have bought and sold multiple headphone amps and even though I don't own this any longer I still say that the Garage1217 Ember II is one of the nicest and most powerful little amps for the LCD2. The Ember is so good that I bought it twice. I sold both though to make room for other amps but whenever i pull out the LCD2 for a listen; I think back to the Ember and miss it. 

Another amp i sold (to a member here I think) was a Bryston BHA-1 and it too was a great amp for the LCD2. Preferring tubes though I sold the Bryston. I have a couple of custom made amps that work well with the LCD's but no sense in posting them since you can't buy 'em. The Garage1217 Polaris (which i still own and use) is yet another great (small) SS amp that works wonderful with the LCD2.


----------



## Lohb

Did you ever try Project Sunrise 3..? I think a couple people recommended that one for LCD to me over Ember 2.


----------



## Amish (Jun 11, 2019)

Lohb said:


> Did you ever try Project Sunrise 3..? I think a couple people recommended that one for LCD to me over Ember 2.


I have owned the Sunrise II and sold it. I bought it used from another guy and though I think it sounds awesome I prefer more power and If I recall it pushes around 850mW at 50 ohms. Sure it works and the LCD2 sounds good on it but I have found that more power brings these cans to life. The Ember will push a solid 2 watts @ 50 ohms and up to 2.4 watts. This is much more pleasing to me. Plus tube rolling is super easy in the Ember with its auto bias. You can roll a butt load wide range of tubes.

I bought The Ember I, & Ember II from Garage1217 directly. The Sunrise II I picked up used off ebay and  I was provided the Polaris by Garage1217 because I had a table at CAMJAM a number of years ago and I hosted the Garage1217 partial line up. Afterwards he let me keep the Polaris for helping spread the word. I'll never sell my Polaris for that very reason.

If you are on the fence about rolling tubes or which amp to get you might consider the Polaris. It is a SS amp but it shares a striking sound resemblance to the hybrid Ember II. It also has the power to push just about any set of cans out there. If you want a tube amp with power and you want to experience the joy of rolling tubes then the Ember is the way to go. I have a large tube collection and it is so much fun rolling tubes in that amp.

Frans knows his stuff and Jeremy is one heck of a dude. Awesome customer service.

I wouldn't mind owning another Ember. If they ever release the Ember III I would have to buy it. This time I would keep it. I regret selling both my Embers but damn...how many amps do I need? lol

My review of the original Ember amp: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/project-ember-review.746221/

I'd like to add that the amp that replaced the Ember I was Bryston's BHA-1 and I was never satisfied with it so I sold it and bought an Ember II, now let me clarify...the Bryston is one awesome amp. But I soon discovered that tube amps are for me. I'm a tube nut and I don't think I'd buy another SS amp for headphones again. Nothing bad can be said of the Bryston though. Stellar amp for sure.

The bottom line is if the Ember was placed in a proper enclosed case (like most amps) I would have it on my desk now. I loved the open design but keeping it clean became a issue for me. I hate dust and it would have to be taken apart and cleaned often.


----------



## spookanide

Main issue I have with those amps is they're so exposed to the elements. Do they rattle like crazy when you lay your phone anywhere near on the desk?


----------



## Lohb

Amish said:


> I have owned the Sunrise II and sold it. I bought it used from another guy and though I think it sounds awesome I prefer more power and If I recall it pushes around 850mW at 50 ohms. Sure it works and the LCD2 sounds good on it but I have found that more power brings these cans to life. The Ember will push a solid 2 watts @ 50 ohms and up to 2.4 watts. This is much more pleasing to me. Plus tube rolling is super easy in the Ember with its auto bias. You can roll a butt load wide range of tubes.
> 
> I bought The Ember I, & Ember II from Garage1217 directly. The Sunrise II I picked up used off ebay and  I was provided the Polaris by Garage1217 because I had a table at CAMJAM a number of years ago and I hosted the Garage1217 partial line up. Afterwards he let me keep the Polaris for helping spread the word. I'll never sell my Polaris for that very reason.
> 
> ...



Which tubes rolled in did you settle on for LCD ?


----------



## FaezFarhan

I only have the Grace M9XX from Massdrop currently. Would it be sufficient to drive the LCD2f? How much performance am I losing?


----------



## Amish

FaezFarhan said:


> I only have the Grace M9XX from Massdrop currently. Would it be sufficient to drive the LCD2f? How much performance am I losing?



Sure it will work but I'd upgrade to something more powerful. That IMO will not drive the LCD2 properly. Less than a watt is not enough to really bring the LCD2 alive.


----------



## FaezFarhan

Amish said:


> Sure it will work but I'd upgrade to something more powerful. That IMO will not drive the LCD2 properly. Less than a watt is not enough to really bring the LCD2 alive.


I’d probably will in the future but right now if I do get the LCD2 it’ll be with the M9XX. Maybe the Drop AAA 789 or something similarly priced in a few months time. Thank you for the reply btw!


----------



## ucan

Amish said:


> Sure it will work but I'd upgrade to something more powerful. That IMO will not drive the LCD2 properly. Less than a watt is not enough to really bring the LCD2 alive.


What about the Schiit Magni 3 for the LCD-2's?


----------



## tamleo

ucan said:


> What about the Schiit Magni 3 for the LCD-2's?


A little thick sounding at times. Kinda "look at me" sound. I don't think it lacks power or something. But I always hope I find a new additional amp that sounds more natural and wider.


----------



## Amish (Jul 31, 2019)

ucan said:


> What about the Schiit Magni 3 for the LCD-2's?



That would be fine. The Magni outputs 1.3 watts per channel at 50 Ohms. I prefer 2 watts per channel myself and run my LCD off 2 watts to 10 watts per channel depending on the amp I use at any given time. I think 2 watts is great for the LCD2. 1.3 is nothing to laugh at though and I'm sure it would be fine. I have not heard that amp though so I cannot comment on SQ.


----------



## FaezFarhan

Amish said:


> That would be fine. The Magni outputs 1.3 watts per channel at 50 Ohms. I prefer 2 watts per channel myself and run my LCD off 2 watts to 10 watts per channel depending on the amp I use at any given time. I think 2 watts is great for the LCD2. 1.3 is nothing to laugh at though and I'm sure it would be fine. I have not heard that amp though so I cannot comment on SQ.


What are the cheaper options that output 2 watts (maybe more) per channel? 

Btw would a ‘17 Fazor satisfy my bass needs, especially because mostly I listen to mainstream music & rap. I had the HD800S before but had to boost the bass with the Schiit Loki. Needed money so I sold them last year.


----------



## Amish

FaezFarhan said:


> What are the cheaper options that output 2 watts (maybe more) per channel?
> 
> Btw would a ‘17 Fazor satisfy my bass needs, especially because mostly I listen to mainstream music & rap. I had the HD800S before but had to boost the bass with the Schiit Loki. Needed money so I sold them last year.



I can't think of anything new for $99 that would be better or worse than the Magni. Personally I'd skip it and just spend more money. I mean the LCD2 R2F was not a cheap headphone so why put it with a cheap amp? If I really couldn't spend money on a decent headphone amp then I'd just use any stereo receiver I had laying around the house. 

Garage1217 Project Polaris is what? $249? It powers the LCD2 wonderfully. I think it pushes around 2-2.5 watts per channel at 50OHm. Of course it is an open design so many people might not like it. $249 give or take can buy a nice used amp too.


----------



## FaezFarhan

Amish said:


> I can't think of anything new for $99 that would be better or worse than the Magni. Personally I'd skip it and just spend more money. I mean the LCD2 R2F was not a cheap headphone so why put it with a cheap amp? If I really couldn't spend money on a decent headphone amp then I'd just use any stereo receiver I had laying around the house.
> 
> Garage1217 Project Polaris is what? $249? It powers the LCD2 wonderfully. I think it pushes around 2-2.5 watts per channel at 50OHm. Of course it is an open design so many people might not like it. $249 give or take can buy a nice used amp too.


I’m getting the LCD2 for a decent 2nd hand price, can’t really spend too much right now but I have the Grace M9XX with me at the moment. It’s probably better for me to save up and buy a decent amp in a few months or so. 

I’m from Malaysia so there’s not really much used option you can get from. Right now I’m in the UK for a week so looking for some steals if there’s any. What about the iFi iMicro?


----------



## Amish

Never listened to the iFi Micro but looking at the specs it would work better than your current amp. In turbo mode it will provide around 1 watt or maybe a bit more per channel. It is advertised as being a warm sound (burr brown dac) which I love but the LCD2 is a warm sounding headphone so might not be the best pairing, depends on the sound signature you want.


----------



## FaezFarhan (Aug 1, 2019)

Amish said:


> Never listened to the iFi Micro but looking at the specs it would work better than your current amp. In turbo mode it will provide around 1 watt or maybe a bit more per channel. It is advertised as being a warm sound (burr brown dac) which I love but the LCD2 is a warm sounding headphone so might not be the best pairing, depends on the sound signature you want.


Definitely warmth but not to the point it becomes dark, & bass boost is always a bonus!

What about the Audio GD NFB11.28?


----------



## Amish

FaezFarhan said:


> Definitely warmth but not to the point it becomes dark, & bass boost is always a bonus!
> 
> What about the Audio GD NFB11.28?



Of everything you listed so far that is the one I'd buy. Yup.


----------



## FaezFarhan

Amish said:


> Of everything you listed so far that is the one I'd buy. Yup.


I see. Found another used one too, Schiit Lyr 2. Not sure if tubes are good for the LCD2f tho.


----------



## OldSkool

I can highly recommend the Schiit Mjolnir. Mine is the first SS version and it pairs incredibly well with my LCD2F. Running balanced and couldn't be happier. 

YMMV.


----------



## Amish

FaezFarhan said:


> I see. Found another used one too, Schiit Lyr 2. Not sure if tubes are good for the LCD2f tho.



I use my LCD2 almost exclusively with tube amps.


----------



## Amish (Aug 1, 2019)

spookanide said:


> Main issue I have with those amps is they're so exposed to the elements. Do they rattle like crazy when you lay your phone anywhere near on the desk?



No rattle at all. 




Lohb said:


> Which tubes rolled in did you settle on for LCD ?



With the Ember II, I ultimately I never settled on one tube. I own a lot of tubes so I would roll all the time but if I had to choose a few I enjoyed the most it would be the following: 1960's Sylvania 6SN7GTB Red label, Black Triangle plates, halo getter w/ adapter, 1959 Telefunken 12AT7 and 1964 Amperex Holland treble clef logo Bugle Boy 12ax7.


----------



## LightBlue77 (Aug 2, 2019)

LCD2 fazor version was mention earlier, i'd like to point they do not need as much power as classical (or non-fazor versions). i've been using fazors directly (without additional amping) wih fiio x5iii, lg v20/v30, pioneer xdp-300r and the sound was excelent, didn't feel something was missing. Of course most of the time i pair it with ifi micro idsd. The idea is they are made to be easily driven and some say they sound better than classical LCD2s, most likely they shouldn't have been part of LCD2 series, but some separate "versioning".


----------



## Amish (Aug 2, 2019)

LightBlue77 said:


> LCD2 fazor version was mention earlier, i'd like to point they do not need as much power as classical (or non-fazor versions). i've been using fazors directly (without additional amping) wih fiio x5iii, lg v20/v30, pioneer xdp-300r and the sound was excelent, didn't feel something was missing. Of course most of the time i pair it with ifi micro idsd. The idea is they are made to be easily driven and some say they sound better than classical LCD2s, most likely they shouldn't have been part of LCD2 series, but some separate "versioning".



I have the same headphone, sure they work with low power but they sound better with more power. I have tested mine with all sorts of amps over the years including my iphone, some portable amps, and the A&K SR15 and non of them brought the LCD2 R2F to life like an amp with good power. The sweet spot for me is around 2 watts per channel. My LCD2 are 50 ohm. I understand that at some point the LCD2 F went to 70 ohms the same as the LCD2C but the older LCD2 R2F is 50 Ohms. You are correct that 50 ohms is easier to drive than 70 ohms but its not like they are 32 ohms which is easily driven by a smart phone. They do require more power for the best sound quality.

Specs stated on the latest LCD2 F:

Minimum power requirement >100mW
Recommended power level >250mW

So yeah I'm sure they work fine with say 250mW per channel but do they come alive at that power? Do you really get the most out of them? Not in my opinion. I would prefer at least 1 watt per channel myself.

My LF 339 is claimed to output around 800mW to 1watt per channel throughout the 25-600OHM range. Using the LCD2 R2F on that amp works great but not until I put the Tung Sol 5998 greens in did it output the power to make the LCD's really shine.

I guess what I'm saying is...yes 100 to 250mW will work but 1w plus sounds better...with the older LCD2's to me.
of course each to their own.


----------



## LightBlue77 (Aug 2, 2019)

True, still, by comparing portables with what ifi micro idsd outputs, and it is very powerful and clean sounding device, there is not much difference, if any, in term of sound quality.
With higher quality dac and amps, the result will be better. Just saying that, in this case, medium quality devices will give close outputs.


----------



## Amish

LightBlue77 said:


> True, still, by comparing portables with what ifi micro idsd outputs, and it is very powerful and clean sounding device, there is not much difference, if any, in term of sound quality.
> With higher quality dac and amps, the result will be better. Just saying that, in this case, medium quality devices will give close outputs.



lol I had deleted my post because I really do not feel like debating this but then you responded and I felt obligated to place my post back in so your post would make sense...haha

Yeah I agree with you on that.


----------



## FaezFarhan (Aug 2, 2019)

Choices now are

M9XX(owned) + Schiit Lyr 2

Audio GD NFB11.28

iFi iMicro iDSD


----------



## LightBlue77

i don't know about first 2 but i think ifi is the cheapest and has the best price/quality ratio. especially if you could find a good used one since i think it is discontinued and replaced by bl version which is more powerful. In Romania, used ones are sold with ~3-400usd.
it depends on how much money you're willing to spend and of course you're expectations.


----------



## marcan

Yes I have the LCD2rev2 and the LCD2C.
The rev2 is clearly more power hungry. Particularly if you want a solid bottom (which the rev2 gives you) you'll need a powerful amp.
The LCD2C or LCD2 fazor are less demanding. However you still need a decent power tu use them to their full potential..


----------



## FaezFarhan

marcan said:


> Yes I have the LCD2rev2 and the LCD2C.
> The rev2 is clearly more power hungry. Particularly if you want a solid bottom (which the rev2 gives you) you'll need a powerful amp.
> The LCD2C or LCD2 fazor are less demanding. However you still need a decent power tu use them to their full potential..


Which one would you go with?


----------



## Amish

FaezFarhan said:


> Choices now are
> 
> M9XX(owned) + Schiit Lyr 2
> 
> ...




M9XX(owned) + Schiit Lyr 2

The Lyr is a little power-house.


----------



## marcan

FaezFarhan said:


> Which one would you go with?


LCD2rev2 without hesitation.
For me the LCD2C is a Mercedes while the rev2 is a Rolls Royce. I'm talking about the sound not the confort. LCD2C is faster but rev2 is more lush.


----------



## awcamaro

So I've decided on a pair of LCD-2C's, but that puts my budget for an amp/dac under 200. I've been really interested in the Topping MX3's for their really great functionality and ability to output to speakers as well, but I've heard some reviewers that aren't Zeos saying the distortion levels are quite high, and the unit itself isn't reliable.

In my budget, I could also pick up an Aune X7S, but that wouldn't leave me any money for a DAC. And, I'm also not too sold on using balanced, nor do I feel like I really have a good grasp on how to use balanced. 

My question would be if it's worth it to get the X7S simply for it's performance, and stick with it's regular headphone out, while pairing it with just the internal dac of my 2016 MBP 15 for now, and upgrading to a better dac in the future? Or would the Topping MX3 be enough for now, and later down the line I can add an additional amp, and use the Topping as a preamp (set at 0db). Or should I get a JDS Atom or MP Liquid Spark, and spend the remaining $100 on a DAC. 

Thanks!


----------



## Amish

awcamaro said:


> So I've decided on a pair of LCD-2C's, but that puts my budget for an amp/dac under 200. I've been really interested in the Topping MX3's for their really great functionality and ability to output to speakers as well, but I've heard some reviewers that aren't Zeos saying the distortion levels are quite high, and the unit itself isn't reliable.
> 
> In my budget, I could also pick up an Aune X7S, but that wouldn't leave me any money for a DAC. And, I'm also not too sold on using balanced, nor do I feel like I really have a good grasp on how to use balanced.
> 
> ...



You seem like you don't really know what you want. Maybe hold off on the amp and dac for now and save up money. Those headphones can run off of MBP for now. The MBP can be used as a dac for now anyway (like you said) and then just buy a better amp to power the headphones.

Honestly I'd save up more money and get a nice dac/amp combo down the road. If you really need something now then just get the x7s


----------



## awcamaro

Amish said:


> You seem like you don't really know what you want. Maybe hold off on the amp and dac for now and save up money. Those headphones can run off of MBP for now. The MBP can be used as a dac for now anyway (like you said) and then just buy a better amp to power the headphones.
> 
> Honestly I'd save up more money and get a nice dac/amp combo down the road. If you really need something now then just get the x7s



You're right about me not really knowing what I want. I haven't really had the opportunity to test out dac/amps, so I'm not positive what I should be spending my money on or if I should be saving up. The reason I'm taking the plunge for the 2C's is because I had the chance to visit an audio store during a trip to NYC, and after trying several pairs from the 990's, 660's, 1990's, some Hifiman stuff, I absolutely fell in love with the 2C's. I figure it'd save me money in the long run to go for something I know I love, instead of messing around with things that almost get me there, especially since I have the budget for it. Problem is in the store, I was listening to them off the iFi Micro iDSD BL's, which are $600, and definitely puts me over budget. They didn't really have any cheaper amps in store, nor were they very adamant about recommending anything from JDS or Schitt. 

I guess it just seems wrong to be listening to the LCD's off a MBP, but I suppose to more experienced audiophiles, it's equally wrong sounding to be listening to them off cheap amp/dacs. But saving up for a better dac/amp combo does make sense. Any way I can get a better sense of what I want/need, especially if I don't really have any access to audiophile stores to test out dac/amps?

Thanks!


----------



## Amish (Aug 21, 2019)

Yeah I hear you man. Starting off with the headphones you love is awesome. The MBP might not do them justice but at least you own them now.

One thing that happens to a lot of people just getting started is they settle for the gear they can afford then quickly realize they want something better. Ultimately they end up spending more than if they just bought what they really wanted early on, hence my suggestion to save up.

The X7S is a decent little amp so I figure you can't go wrong with it. But if you really liked that iFi Micro then you will most likely always have that in the back of your mind.

I wouldn't worry about a dac since the MBP can handle that well enough. Just put your money into a good amp. Or a good amp/dac combo unit.

No matter what you do, good luck! You already have a head start since you bought the headphones you really dig. This hobby can get expensive that's for sure.

To answer your question, if you can't test the equipment then its a hard one. Reading a lot of reviews might help, finding people that use your headphones and seeing what they use might help. Nothing beats testing the equipment yourself. I mean if enough people love something there is a good chance you will too. No guarantee but it can help.


----------



## awcamaro

Amish said:


> Yeah I hear you man. Starting off with the headphones you love is awesome. The MBP might not do them justice but at least you own them now.
> 
> One thing that happens to a lot of people just getting started is they settle for the gear they can afford then quickly realize they want something better. Ultimately they end up spending more than if they just bought what they really wanted early on, hence my suggestion to save up.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the advice! I failed to mention, one of the things that drew me into the Topping setup was the fact that it has great remote control functionality. I've been working on the layout of my setup, and right now it's gravitated towards being a "living room" esque setup (I live in a studio, so more like couch+coffee table+tv esque setup). The dac/amp would probably be situated on the tv stand, so being able to control it from the couch, as well as the ability to switch between headphones and speakers would be a great plus. It probably won't be migrating to the coffee table due to the fact that it'll probably also be plugged into the PS4 and TV.

I'd like to do most of these longer listening sessions here instead of at my desk where I'm constantly standing and moving around between my computer and drafting table. At the couch, I'd probably be listening from the laptop or phone (LDAC), or watching a bluray with the headphones. I have powered speakers so I don't really need the speaker amp of the MX3 so I've been looking a lot into the DX3 Pro's and all the issues that came with them. Got me into a rabbit hole of headphone impedance vs output impedance, number crunching and what not.

Related question - so I've heard mixed things about the 1/8 or 1/10 rule with headphone and output impedances, and that planar's aren't really affected by this. (DX3 Pro got downgraded to a 10 ohm output impedance when Topping released the new, more "reliable" unit). And I haven't found much anecdotes of people using the DX3 Pro's with LCD's. 

Any thoughts? 
And thanks again!


----------



## PascalT

Hey all, been out of the game for a while but just went through my storage unit and found a pair of lcd-2s! I thought I lost them in a move. I sold my dac/amp a while back... I'm looking to get back in it 

I used an mhdt Havana as an amp before and loved the *smooth, warm and rich sound*. That was 4-5 years ago and I'm sure there's some newer recommendations in that department of sound signature.. what are yours? My budget is up to $2k. I've seen in this thread recommendations for the violectric v200 and the Kenzie.

Thks!


----------



## Lohb

PascalT said:


> Hey all, been out of the game for a while but just went through my storage unit and found a pair of lcd-2s! I thought I lost them in a move. I sold my dac/amp a while back... I'm looking to get back in it
> 
> I used an mhdt Havana as an amp before and loved the *smooth, warm and rich sound*. That was 4-5 years ago and I'm sure there's some newer recommendations in that department of sound signature.. what are yours? My budget is up to $2k. I've seen in this thread recommendations for the violectric v200 and the Kenzie.
> 
> Thks!


It might be too low ticket that you immediately dismiss it, but *Emotiva basX A-100* has the "vintage amp sound" and you can remove jumpers on the front to divert the speaker taps watts output to the 6.3" for older LCD-2s that needed more headroom than the newer stuff. 
It was not avail. 4 years ago...you'll have lot more money for a better DAC at the amp price, as I said elsewhere recently. They have
a 30 days return policy maybe if in a country that ships it domestically..


----------



## Amish

PascalT said:


> Hey all, been out of the game for a while but just went through my storage unit and found a pair of lcd-2s! I thought I lost them in a move. I sold my dac/amp a while back... I'm looking to get back in it
> 
> I used an mhdt Havana as an amp before and loved the *smooth, warm and rich sound*.



How did you use that as an amp? That's a dedicated DAC. 

The Violectric v200 is a solid choice for sure.


----------



## PointyFox

The V200 would be fine for the LCD-2, but not for anything sensitive like IEMs. It introduces low level transformer hum.
I'd recommend what I'm going with which is the ADI-2 DAC which is also an amp. It has great measurements and output, but what sets it apart is all the built in features, like a built in parametric EQ PER CHANNEL.


----------



## NitePhlight

recently joined the  club myself - picked up a pair of used LCD2F, Fazor edition not for a terribly specific reason but my understanding is that they're (a little) easier to drive than other versions (and also i'm a sucker for the rosewood!).

this is my first major upgrade from a super transparent entry level setup with *ODAC > Gilmore Lite (OG /w dedicated power supply) > AKG 7XX*. still love the impressive soundstage and separation with this setup, but i'm looking to explore a more musical setup. the LCD2 seemed like a good bridge to cross, and is a potential endgame component from what i hear.

thus far i've been driving them with the same DAC/Amp combo above, and the output seems _sufficient_? i certainly want to allow ample time to adjust before forming any strong opinions, but i can't help but feel that the ~1W drive power isn't doing these cans justice. the thing is, i'm not sure if it's some preconceived bias or perhaps a taste for these legendary headphones that I have not acquired yet. even more likely is the fact that i am not comfortable enough yet with the circuitry and science to articulate what is missing.



Amish said:


> Specs stated on the latest LCD2 F:
> 
> Minimum power requirement >100mW
> Recommended power level >250mW
> ...



@Amish thanks for this post - leads me to believe i'm not crazy, but do you think that the full potential of these headphones is currently limited by just the amp, or could the ODAC be contributing to the somewhat anemic sound? i'm not quite ready to explore the dedicated DAC rabbit hole just yet, but i do also own an LG V40 which houses a Sabre ES9218P - will probably test this out as an alternative later.

you also mentioned that you exclusively use tube amps with your cans - i was recommended for pairing the Shiit Lyr 2 or Cavalli Liquid Fire (a bit out of my price range though). these both appear to be popular hybrid amps, more than enough power but would these be enough tube for your tastes?


----------



## ucan

Nitephlight: I'm using 'demo' version (or customer return or something) LCD-2 F's that I got for half the list price. While I don't listen to headphones much compared to my speaker set-up, I like to have the option. So, I am not looking to spend a huge amount on a dedicated headphone amp set-up, just an add-on to what I already have (without any cable swapping). I use a Schiit Saga tube amp with my powered monitors which has two pairs of OUTS. I find it simple to keep an iFi iCAN headphone plugged permanently into the second pair of OUTS. I just connect my LCD2's into the iCAN and turn off the monitors if I want to listen without disturbing anyone around me. Sounds pretty good to my untrained ear, although I don't really do any serious comparing. The two set-ups (monitor/headphone) in this case are as follows:

1. Windows 10 running JRiver 25 (with some EQ'ing) > iFi iGalvanic3.0 (USB decrapifier) > iFi IDAC2 > Schiit Saga > Neumann KH120 monitors
2. Windows 10 running JRiver 25 (with some EQ'ing) > iFi iGalvanic3.0 (USB decrapifier) > iFi IDAC2 > Schiit Saga > iFi iCAN headphone amp > LCD-2 F


----------



## Amish (Oct 10, 2019)

@NitePhlight Well exclusively might be not the right word but yes I'm a tube guy. Most of my amps, dacs, preamps and even my cd player are all tube. I do have a couple of SS amps though and have owned a bunch. I think a hybrid amp would be perfect for the LCD2 and the last one I owned was the Garage1217 Ember II and it was KILLER with the LCD2.The Cavalli would be great with the LCD2!

Yeah I like hybrid amps so I'd be down for one or two. I've drifted from hybrids to straight tube amps but I think a good hybrid offers the best o both worlds. Good power and added dynamics along with a more lush and smooth sound (depending on tubes of course).

Personally I am not a Schiit fan. No hidden meaning or hate here just not for me.


----------



## smoothb0re

@NitePhlight 

For a less expensive option I would recommend checking out Xduoo's TA-10 if you don't have a balanced dac, and TA-20 if you do. 10 is a tube hybrid dac/amp combo, 20 is a balanced tube hybrid amp. Both sound wonderful with the LCD2, especially after some tube rolling. The drop.com Cavalli LCX and LCX+SDAC is also a fantastic, affordable option, and the amp has a certain tubeness to it.


----------



## dasmodul

oqvist said:


> Please chime in what your best amps are for this headphone or educated guesses compared to previous ortho experiences.


Ray Samuels Dark Star. I used to have this combo and it was legendary.


----------



## BobMonkhouse

I just got my Gilmore Lite Mk2 yesterday and listened to it last night for a couple of hours. So, what follows are first thoughts. For the first time, I didn't feel I wanted to EQ my LCD-2f 2019. This amp could be everything I needed because it sounded equally impressive with my HD 6XX and AFO. And it didn't get much different switching between OL DAC, Modi 3, and Topping DX3 Pro. Its sounded definitely more satisfying than my Atom amp which reveals more the differences between the DACs. I don't know now how much these less expensive DACs hold the full potential of the Mk2. Saying that, I still see myself enjoying a lot the different sound of my Ember 2 with those headphones.


----------



## Lohb

BobMonkhouse said:


> I just got my Gilmore Lite Mk2 yesterday and listened to it last night for a couple of hours. So, what follows are first thoughts. For the first time, I didn't feel I wanted to EQ my LCD-2f 2019. This amp could be everything I needed because it sounded equally impressive with my HD 6XX and AFO. And it didn't get much different switching between OL DAC, Modi 3, and Topping DX3 Pro. Its sounded definitely more satisfying than my Atom amp which reveals more the differences between the DACs. I don't know now how much these less expensive DACs hold the full potential of the Mk2. Saying that, I still see myself enjoying a lot the different sound of my Ember 2 with those headphones.


Stock tubes on Ember 2 ?


----------



## BobMonkhouse

Lohb said:


> Stock tubes on Ember 2 ?



I haven`t heard better sound than a dual Visseaux 6J5G setup from the Ember. Other than that, Sylvania 6SN7 are my favourite, the JAN CHS 6SN7GT in particular. My experience with 6SN7 is limited to a few brands and versions though.  I have quite a few mini 9 pin tubes; among them, I prefer the Raytheon JAN-CRP-5814A. Amperex 7062 and Triotron ECC189 are two not very popular tubes which I like a lot.


----------



## thegen

Have anyone paired the LCD-2/C with something like JDS Labs EL Amp? Would this have enough to drive the LCD’s as intended?


----------



## Amish

Sure it will power them but I wouldn't bother myself. Doesn't seem to be a good match looking at the power output.


Max Continuous Power, 600 Ω 165 mW (9.9 VRMS)
Max Continuous Power, 150 Ω 656 mW (9.9 VRMS)
Max Continuous Power, 32 Ω 1.3 W (6.53 VRMS)
But of course it will power the headphones....just not to my standards.


----------



## thegen

Thats to bad, I thought it would be a good match for the LCD’s. It is somewhat bothersome to find amplifiers matching what I seek in Sweden, even in europe for that matter. I dislike everything made in China and all real powerhouses like Violectric cost a fortune. 

Those that might not cost a small fortune, look like garbage instead.

What would you recommend Amish? 

I like your beard by the way


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## Amish (Nov 20, 2019)

Have you considered the Garage1217 Polaris? That has a fair price, and is a killer little amp with plenty of power for the LCD2. You can find them used as well.

/edit: The LCD2C doesn't require a lot of power so maybe that JDS amp will do the trick. I really believe that these headphones perform better with more power but if you are limited on what is available to you at a fair price, try the JDS out. Return it if you are not happy.


----------



## marcan

Audeze (LCD at least) always loves more powa. It's not a question of loudness, it's a question of authority and bottom end.
While the LCD2 family is now more sensitive, those rules still apply.


----------



## LightBlue77

I've been using ifi micro idsd for a few years and it's very good in both power and sound. it drives any headphone. Should  be cheap  enough if you could find an used unit or turn to black label version if you want a new one.


----------



## thegen (Nov 25, 2019)

Just got my LCD-2C after waiting for about a month. Meanwhile I had the LCD-X's on loan. Where the hell is the low-end?! There is almost no bass, or atleast not nearly as much as there was with the LCD-X's. They had a ton of low-end candy. Is 20Ohms really that much easier to drive than 70Ohms? I really hope this is just because I'm using my onboard audio card. Supposedly, it should drive HP's up to 600Ohms but maybe this is not true?

Would the Asgard 3 be better suited than the EL AMP? It has more power atleast


----------



## marcan

I wouldn't make a definitive judgement without a good amp. Low end is a power sucker.


----------



## Lohb (Nov 26, 2019)

thegen said:


> Just got my LCD-2C after waiting for about a month. Meanwhile I had the LCD-X's on loan. Where the hell is the low-end?! There is almost no bass, or atleast not nearly as much as there was with the LCD-X's. They had a ton of low-end candy. Is 20Ohms really that much easier to drive than 70Ohms? I really hope this is just because I'm using my onboard audio card. Supposedly, it should drive HP's up to 600Ohms but maybe this is not true?
> 
> Would the Asgard 3 be better suited than the EL AMP? It has more power atleast


Yes, it can be the difference in Ohms rating. I have a 70-ohm 2CB and 18-ohm other planar and my small low-gain amp powers the 18-ohm one just fine but the 2CB really needs high gain jumper setting as its anemic out the low gain setting. You're O/B card is obviously below its threshold. 2C/2CB are rated >250mWatts (recommended) and upwards for a baseline level of decent sound and your O/B will be 100mWatts or less probably into 70-Ohms.


----------



## Rattle

thegen said:


> Just got my LCD-2C after waiting for about a month. Meanwhile I had the LCD-X's on loan. Where the hell is the low-end?! There is almost no bass, or atleast not nearly as much as there was with the LCD-X's. They had a ton of low-end candy. Is 20Ohms really that much easier to drive than 70Ohms? I really hope this is just because I'm using my onboard audio card. Supposedly, it should drive HP's up to 600Ohms but maybe this is not true?
> 
> Would the Asgard 3 be better suited than the EL AMP? It has more power atleast



I have a liquid platinum already and I picked up an asgard 3 to mess with. LCD2 is great out of it. Excellent pairing IMO, I figure @ 70ohm the asgard 3 does about 2 watts. Nice low end control and bass.


----------



## Amish

thegen said:


> I really hope this is just because *I'm using my onboard audio card*



Get an amplifier and your bass will return.


----------



## thegen

Amish said:


> Get an amplifier and your bass will return.



I figured I'll have to wait for the amp before doing anymore listening, they sound so damn flat and bad out of my onboard output, even though it is supposed to have a "good" amplifier.The LCD-X however, sounded damn good, lots of low end power. Unfortunately the wait will extend to after christmast as I can't afford the Asgard 3 atm.


----------



## 441879

thegen said:


> Just got my LCD-2C after waiting for about a month. Meanwhile I had the LCD-X's on loan. Where the hell is the low-end?! There is almost no bass, or atleast not nearly as much as there was with the LCD-X's. They had a ton of low-end candy. Is 20Ohms really that much easier to drive than 70Ohms? I really hope this is just because I'm using my onboard audio card. Supposedly, it should drive HP's up to 600Ohms but maybe this is not true?
> 
> Would the Asgard 3 be better suited than the EL AMP? It has more power atleast



sounds like you’re short on power. My experience with the LCD2CB is plenty of gorgeous bass. Asgard 3 should definitely do it. Personally I prefer the Lyr 3, but the A3 is a good bit cheaper and won’t have any problems.


----------



## thegen

will f said:


> sounds like you’re short on power. My experience with the LCD2C is plenty of gorgeous bass. Asgard 3 should definitely do it. Personally I prefer the Lyr 3, but the A3 is a good bit cheaper and won’t have any problems. Depending on your computer sound card, I’d get a DAC too. Either one added to the A3 or a separate DAC. I found the Topping D50 to be an exceptional DAC for the price.



Yes, seems like it. I'll most likely end up with the Asgard 3, though I haven't decided for a DAC just yet. I'll be needing S/PDIF so the 4490 module won't do it. The Bifrost 2 seems nice and would fit like a gloove with the A3 but prices here in europe are nuts. The Bifrost 2 is $960. Perhaps something like the Meridian Direct. I really liked how the Explorer 2 sounded, though it was with a pair of Grados but still, great sounding DAC so the Direct should be even better.


----------



## roru100

Hi guys,

I have auditioned the lcd 2 Fazor with a proper headphone amp. I cannot recall the model/brand but I loved the sound. 

Well, would you say that a dragonfly cobalt can adequately power the lcd 2? I guess there are always benefits it getting something better, but if I get 90% of the performance with this combo I would be totally fine.


----------



## Amish

roru100 said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I have auditioned the lcd 2 Fazor with a proper headphone amp. I cannot recall the model/brand but I loved the sound.
> 
> Well, would you say that a dragonfly cobalt can adequately power the lcd 2? I guess there are always benefits it getting something better, but if I get 90% of the performance with this combo I would be totally fine.



I would say that yes, you will get music through the LCD2 and the DF Cobalt but it will be thin and uninspiring. The Cobalt just doesn't have the power to push the LCD2. If you spend the money needed for an LCD 2 then buy a proper amp. It doesn't have to be an expensive amp, just something with a bit more power.


----------



## Monstieur

roru100 said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I have auditioned the lcd 2 Fazor with a proper headphone amp. I cannot recall the model/brand but I loved the sound.
> 
> Well, would you say that a dragonfly cobalt can adequately power the lcd 2? I guess there are always benefits it getting something better, but if I get 90% of the performance with this combo I would be totally fine.


It will work fine. The new LCD-2 and LCD-2 Classic only need 25 mW at 1.33 V / 19 mA to reach a deafening 115 dB SPL. Because they have flat impedance, you can run them out of anything provided they can supply the above voltage and current.


----------



## marcan

Power is not juste about SPL, particularly with the audeze that goes very low.
I don't know the frequency used for your 115 db spl but I can tell you that 25mW won't make it all. Your low end will be completely anemic.


----------



## Rattle

you need a decent amp that will do about 2 watts IMO to make these LCD2 really shine.


----------



## Monstieur

marcan said:


> Power is not juste about SPL, particularly with the audeze that goes very low.
> I don't know the frequency used for your 115 db spl but I can tell you that 25mW won't make it all. Your low end will be completely anemic.


It’s 25 mW at all frequencies because of flat impedance.


----------



## Lohb

Monstieur said:


> It’s 25 mW at all frequencies because of flat impedance.


Refer to Audeze website they recommend a minimum of 200mWatts and up for all the new gen. "2" stuff and 1-2 watts per channel probably best just to have that large headroom for current pull spikes for sub-bass/complex mids passages.

You'll get "sound" out of 25mWatts that is about it.... I use less than 100mWatts device if I wants mids emphasis and to tame down both ends.


----------



## Monstieur (Dec 20, 2019)

Lohb said:


> Refer to Audeze website they recommend a minimum of 200mWatts and up for all the new gen. "2" stuff and 1-2 watts per channel probably best just to have that large headroom for current pull spikes for sub-bass/complex mids passages.
> 
> You'll get "sound" out of 25mWatts that is about it.... I use less than 100mWatts device if I wants mids emphasis and to tame down both ends.


The voltage & impedance to SPL graph on Innerfidelity says otherwise. It’s practically constant at all frequencies. Claiming otherwise is pseudoscience.

The recommendations don’t mean anything. The Mobius supposedly has a 1 W amp inside it which is questionable. They don’t specify the headphone impedance for that value. It does not correspond to the headphone model on the page because they blindly copy the same recommendation on all their headphone pages with varying impedances. I doubt it’s better than a Fulla 3 at 70 ohms. By that scale, a real 50 mW amp at 70 ohms far exceeds their recommendations.

I hear zero audible difference at 20 Hz on my LCD-2 Classic when using my Sound Blaster ZxR, Realtek onboard, Marantz SR6012, iPad, and various higher powered FiiO headphone amps which I discarded because they were pointless.

I’m the first person to trash a system if it doesn’t reproduce 20 Hz properly at reference levels.


----------



## marcan

Monstieur said:


> It’s 25 mW at all frequencies because of flat impedance.


No I mean your number of 25 mW what was the frequency used for this measurement. But I guess you don't know.


----------



## marcan

Monstieur said:


> The voltage & impedance to SPL graph on Innerfidelity says otherwise. It’s practically constant at all frequencies. Claiming otherwise is pseudoscience.
> 
> The recommendations don’t mean anything. The Mobius supposedly has a 1 W amp inside it which is questionable. They don’t specify the headphone impedance for that value. It does not correspond to the headphone model on the page because they blindly copy the same recommendation on all their headphone pages with varying impedances. I doubt it’s better than a Fulla 3 at 70 ohms. By that scale, a real 50 mW amp at 70 ohms far exceeds their recommendations.
> 
> ...


How do you verify your 20hz?


----------



## Monstieur

marcan said:


> No I mean your number of 25 mW what was the frequency used for this measurement. But I guess you don't know.


At all frequencies. The impedance is a flat line.


----------



## marcan

Monstieur said:


> At all frequencies. The impedance is a flat line.


Which graph are you referring to?


----------



## Monstieur (Dec 20, 2019)

marcan said:


> Which graph are you referring to?


The newer LCD-2 model’s impedance (70 ohms) vs frequency graph. Though the sensitivity of 101 dB / mW is rated at 1 kHz, it’s constant for all frequencies (apart from variances in frequency response) as the impedance is constant. It’s effectively a resistor, so the power required is constant at all frequencies. The older LCD-2 models with higher impedance needed 10x the power.


----------



## Monstieur (Dec 21, 2019)

Lohb said:


> Refer to Audeze website they recommend a minimum of 200mWatts and up for all the new gen. "2" stuff and 1-2 watts per channel probably best just to have that large headroom for current pull spikes for sub-bass/complex mids passages.
> 
> You'll get "sound" out of 25mWatts that is about it.... I use less than 100mWatts device if I wants mids emphasis and to tame down both ends.


I’ll put it another way. There are no current spikes on the LCD-2 as it’s a resistive load. When playing at 115 dB, it consumes 25 mW regardless of whether it’s producing powerful bass or feeble treble. At low frequencies most of the power drawn is turned into sound energy, and at high frequencies most of the power drawn is dissipated as heat. So the amp just needs to be able to supply the minimum power (and voltage) for your listening level, which is less than 25 mW at 70 ohms.

Audeze’s blanket power recommendations are probably at 300 ohms as they clearly do not correspond to the model of headphone on the page.


----------



## marcan

Monstieur said:


> it consumes 25 mW regardless of whether it’s producing powerful bass or feeble treble. At low frequencies most of the power drawn is turned into sound energy, and at high frequencies most of the power drawn is disappeared as heat.


How do you came to this conclusion?!


----------



## Monstieur

marcan said:


> How do you came to this conclusion?!


That is what a constant impedance vs frequency value means - it’s effectively a resistor. It draws constant power at a given voltage regardless of frequency.


----------



## newaudio46

I’m probably going to sell my lcd2 f, second revision from late 2016/ early17.


----------



## marcan

Monstieur said:


> That is what a constant impedance vs frequency value means - it’s effectively a resistor. It draws constant power at a given voltage regardless of frequency.


No, constant impedance vs frequency doesn't mean equal power at all the frequencies for the same SPL.


----------



## Monstieur (Dec 22, 2019)

marcan said:


> No, constant impedance vs frequency doesn't mean equal power at all the frequencies for the same SPL.


Same voltage, not SPL. SPL at the same voltage varies with frequency response from the nominal sensitivity value at 1 kHz. I incorrectly conflated the two in my previous response.


----------



## xoxiax (Mar 19, 2020)

I know is not the ideal config, but do you guys think that the balanced output of the* Sony zx300* (supposed to deliver 200 mW @ 16 ohms) could be enough to enjoy the *LCD2C* (although not at it's full potential obviously)
I'm thinking about buying the Audezes but i'm a rookie in the amp world. Only have a *headstage arrow 4* from years ago. If it's not enough i'd prefer a portable amp to move around the house and not be chained to my chair when i use them (i can't imagine myself with these monsters on the street), but it seems that all the options are really expensive... Is there any amp under 200 euros that could drive them properly? (sorry if i repeat a question already answered, but i've been trying to find something on the thread but the 600 pages through 10 years mark too much evolution to follow)
Thanks in advance


----------



## LightBlue77

I have Lcd2 fazor edition, it's easy to drive, and Sony zx300. They sound great together via single ended output. Balanced output is more powerful and I think it would sound very well with LCD2c but as you say, not at full potential. 
I would say either buy LCD2 fazor or if you want LCD2c, you might try a topping dac/amp or an ifi micro idsd, or if you add some money, the black label edition of ifi micro. They sound great together, still not at the full potential but you kind of need to double or triple the budget for a dac/amp to reach the potential these headphones have. Try to find used devices, on my country I've seen ifi micro bl sold for around 220 euros.


----------



## LightBlue77

One more thing, have you activated the high gain mode on your zx300?


----------



## xoxiax (Mar 19, 2020)

LightBlue77 said:


> I have Lcd2 fazor edition, it's easy to drive, and Sony zx300. They sound great together via single ended output. Balanced output is more powerful and I think it would sound very well with LCD2c but as you say, not at full potential.
> I would say either buy LCD2 fazor or if you want LCD2c, you might try a topping dac/amp or an ifi micro idsd, or if you add some money, the black label edition of ifi micro. They sound great together, still not at the full potential but you kind of need to double or triple the budget for a dac/amp to reach the potential these headphones have. Try to find used devices, on my country I've seen ifi micro bl sold for around 220 euros.



Well, that's good news, thank you very much for your answer!

I use the high gain with all my headphones with the zx300 and to my ears they all deliver their better with more juice (Flares pro 2hd, Sennheiser ie 800, Dali io 6 and Audeze Sine). My only experience with planars was the Sine (which i'm changing with a friend, plus some money, for the LCD2 Classic, so there's no choice there about the Fazors) and i can assure that the jump from the single ended output to the balanced one, in high gain, was huge. I was afraid about the combo with the L33cds sounding low, dead and dull from the zx300 without an amp, but now i can have small expectations about achieving, at least, minimums of enjoyment and goosebumps.

Now i'm on the center of the storm living in Madrid, so i will wait till things go back to normality (that grey thing that we only appreciate when it's gone) to look for an amp, but following your recommendation the ifis will be high on my list. Looks like someone is selling an ican old version of it at good price close to my house. Would it be enough?:
https://www.milanuncios.com/amplificadores/ifi-micro-ican-amplificador-auriculares-306547009.htm Are there big differences between this one and the Black label edition??

Thanks again for the answers!


----------



## LightBlue77

Ican is an amp only but it will better drive your headphones. If possible, test it first, ican is very powerful but balanced mode on zx300 with high gain might be enough.


----------



## xoxiax

LightBlue77 said:


> Ican is an amp only but it will better drive your headphones. If possible, test it first, ican is very powerful but balanced mode on zx300 with high gain might be enough.


After some research i'm finding the ifi xcan specially tempting, although a little expensive for my budget. I'll test before my devices and if they don't deliver as i'd like, well, you've put the devil's seed on me...


----------



## ThanatosVI

Would a Schiit Mjolnir2 be a good endgame amp for the LCD-2C?


----------



## phcjpp

I don't think it was mentioned in this thread already (its a large thread) but the Questyle golden stack sounds great with my LCD-4's. I have run it in single amp and dual-mono block mode.

Very Best
Chris


----------



## paulybatz

Woo WA7


----------



## OldSkool

ThanatosVI said:


> Would a Schiit Mjolnir2 be a good endgame amp for the LCD-2C?



I would think so. I'm running the Mjolnir1 into LCD-2F's and find the pairing to be excellent. YMMV

Cheers, JC


----------



## ThanatosVI

OldSkool said:


> I would think so. I'm running the Mjolnir1 into LCD-2F's and find the pairing to be excellent. YMMV
> 
> Cheers, JC


That Sounds promising. Looking so forward to it


----------



## Mocs123

I just stumbled upon a pretty good deal on a pair of pre Fazor LCD-2's.   Would my JDS Atom provide enough power or do they need more? If not, would a Magni Heresy be enough.  What inexpensive amp would be enough?     I'm using a Topping D10 as my DAC.


----------



## BobMonkhouse

I'm satisfied how my Atom performs with my LCD-2 fazor on high gain. I don't pass 12 o'clock on the volume. The pre-fazor is a bit more demanding but shouldn't make a big difference for the amp.


----------



## flailure

I don't have the atom, but I do have the JDS element (pretty much the same amp) and a Magni and both runs them no problems at all.  I have not done a lot of comparison between the 2 amps however, so I couldnt tell you which one of those 2 would be my preference with the lcd2f, I would advise you to use what you have first (atom) at any rate and then decide afterwards if you want to pursue something else.  


If after listening you decide you do not like that pairing, then spend some time looking for the right upgrade.  If I get a chance I will do a comparison of the element vs magni for the lcd2f and let you know, but it could be a bit, I recently got a schiit lyr 3 amp and it has been using all of my listening time.


----------



## droido256

Just got a LCD-2F now while most of the time they will be mated to the little dot, there might be some times that I want to move around with them. While the iphone directly surprisingly can handle the LcD-2 well, what is a good portable amp (preferably less than $500) that can make them to their full potential? Maintains or even goes better on the holographic soundstage, maintains good solid clean bass, doesnt mess with those heavenly vocals and doesnt mess up the treble? Currently have the stock non balanced cable.


----------



## Monstieur

droido256 said:


> Just got a LCD-2F now while most of the time they will be mated to the little dot, there might be some times that I want to move around with them. While the iphone directly surprisingly can handle the LcD-2 well, what is a good portable amp (preferably less than $500) that can make them to their full potential? Maintains or even goes better on the holographic soundstage, maintains good solid clean bass, doesnt mess with those heavenly vocals and doesnt mess up the treble? Currently have the stock non balanced cable.


There's no audible difference on my LCD-2 Classic between any amp ranging from on-board audio to my THX 788 amp. Even direct output from my iPhone sounds the same except for the maximum volume.


----------



## droido256

Monstieur said:


> There's no audible difference on my LCD-2 Classic between any amp ranging from on-board audio to my THX 788 amp. Even direct output from my iPhone sounds the same except for the maximum volume.


Hmm so sounds like not worth the extra money, just direct line it when I feel restless.


----------



## spookanide (May 4, 2020)

Questyle cma 600i vs violectric v100?

I found both units second hand for roughly the same price. I was wondering who has listening experience on both of these. I did read that the questyle 600i amp has a smoothness to it when used with an external DAC (I have a TEAC which sounds neutral). I also read the v100 has great bass extension and good warmth. So which one to grab? It'll be tough to audition them with the current situation and it's both a far drive.

I am using the LCD2-fazor rev2 and I prefer a darker amp signature. I also own a questyle cma400i and it's been boxed again doing nothing, too bright/peaky sounding. It's mostly down to the DAC I think, since on speakers it gave the same peaky character. It got swapped for a littledot mk2. I listen to anything from classical OST to electronic, really enjoy a good sub rumble from the LCD2. Any thoughts?

*edit* doing some more A/B with the littledot mk2 and the CMA400i, the bass seems too controlled (or held back compared to the rest of the spectrum) to me on the 400i. I am doing this with the 400i on full gain and on the balanced output.

Checking the power ratings on the 400i/600i/V100 and some feedback I've seen throughout this thread, it seems like I need some more powa. I did some basic spreadsheeting based on impedance measurements of the LCD2 fazor (64 Ohms) and came to the following power delivery of each, assuming a linear power/impedance response of each:

400i: 1107 mW (gives 30 and 300 Ohms)
600i: 1748 mW (same)
V100: 2172 mW (multiple data points, this is based on their 50 and 100 Ohm data)

My guess is that my best bet will be a V100.


----------



## Three

Is the RobinetteBox still the recommended solution for connecting these headphones directly to the speaker terminals on a tube amp? I have a pretty decent stereo (see profile info) running 300B monoblocks and it would be great to utilize as much of the existing equipment as I can when listening with headphones.

Are there pre-built versions of the RB or is it strictly a DIY affair?
https://robrobinette.com/RobinetteBox.htm


----------



## Devarika Woulf (May 26, 2020)

Hey. I'm an old member long time out of the game. I bought a LCD-2 Rev.2 way back at the end of 2011 (Rosewood w/ straight connectors so pretty OLD). They are still working great which is shocking. I've been using a V200 amp alongside a Rega DAC for 8 years (which has a pleasing warm sound). I'm wondering lately if there is a better amp out there that would push these better than the V200? I've followed the Audeze evolution these years but not the amp/dac game so I need some tips. If anyone can recommend anything better I'm all ears. Thanks.


----------



## DeadEars

Devarika Woulf said:


> Hey. I'm an old member long time out of the game. I bought a LCD-2 Rev.2 way back at the end of 2011 (Rosewood w/ straight connectors so pretty OLD). They are still working great which is shocking. I've been using a V200 amp alongside a Rega DAC for 8 years (which has a pleasing warm sound). I'm wondering lately if there is a better amp out there that would push these better than the V200? I've followed the Audeze evolution these years but not the amp/dac game so I need some tips. If anyone can recommend anything better I'm all ears. Thanks.



My LCD-2's date back from the first year of Audeze, and I did have to send them back once for splitting wood around the connector, but they are very original.  Recently I picked up a used Schiit Ragnarok, which is rated for speaker use as well as headphone use.  It is outstanding on the early LCD-2's like ours.  It runs in Class A (a modified Circlotron topology which is very cool for an OTL tube guy like me) for headphone use and sound spectacular with my old Audeze cans.  Highly recommended.


----------



## Monstieur

Devarika Woulf said:


> Hey. I'm an old member long time out of the game. I bought a LCD-2 Rev.2 way back at the end of 2011 (Rosewood w/ straight connectors so pretty OLD). They are still working great which is shocking. I've been using a V200 amp alongside a Rega DAC for 8 years (which has a pleasing warm sound). I'm wondering lately if there is a better amp out there that would push these better than the V200? I've followed the Audeze evolution these years but not the amp/dac game so I need some tips. If anyone can recommend anything better I'm all ears. Thanks.


The new THX AAA amps are objectively among the best amps made, and they are relatively cheap. They have enough power for the most inefficient headphones and are transparent, so there is no point in buying anything else.


----------



## Devarika Woulf (May 27, 2020)

DeadEars said:


> My LCD-2's date back from the first year of Audeze, and I did have to send them back once for splitting wood around the connector, but they are very original.  Recently I picked up a used Schiit Ragnarok, which is rated for speaker use as well as headphone use.  It is outstanding on the early LCD-2's like ours.  It runs in Class A (a modified Circlotron topology which is very cool for an OTL tube guy like me) for headphone use and sound spectacular with my old Audeze cans.  Highly recommended.



I never used the supplied oil on my pair. They're kinda dry actually but the wood never cracked. I read so many stories about it along with the drivers dying so I've been lucky. 

I remember Schiit getting big right after I bought my gear and they've really done a lot since then. I'm reading nothing but great things about the Ragnarok with the LCD-2. It could be a good pairing with the Yggdrasil for a complete upgrade but I've gotta do some reading. 



Monstieur said:


> The new THX AAA amps are objectively among the best amps made, and they are relatively cheap. They have enough power for the most inefficient headphones and are transparent, so there is no point in buying anything else.



I wish they had more amps like that around back in the day. Could have saved some money!


----------



## droido256

droido256 said:


> Hmm so sounds like not worth the extra money, just direct line it when I feel restless.


Flash forward and I have a ifi micro idsd black label. Makes a biiiiiig difference.


----------



## spookanide (Jun 4, 2020)

Paired with TEAC UD-H01, dual mono style DAC with balanced outs.
I am currently testing out a THX 789, just got it yesterday. First impression is that it's very nice, but not a detail monster and might lack a little bite in that sense. Sub-bass extension is very good, but doesn't slam compared to an iCAN SE with the bass EQ on 1 notch up. I'd say this amp presents the headphones as they are and very gently evens out any percieved sibbilance and harshness. This amp brings out the mids the most I'd say.
I am still very curious to try the LCD2 with a violectric V100 and 200. Still chasing low end slam.

(tested my impressions on balanced in/out only, have not tested on the SE cables that I usually use as interconnects.)

2nd sit down with it and A/Bing the SE and balanced inputs from my TEAC. The balanced inputs are the bassiest, which is what I like, but only by an extremely slight margin. This amp leans ever so slightly towards warmth compared to others and I'm really liking it so far. Just make sure you use the balanced inputs to get the most from it. According to my extrapolation of the specs, it should deliver 5380 mW per channel into the 64 Ohm LCD2f.

update 2020 06 03:
I upgraded my balanced cable to the current stock LCD black braided model. I figured that the sound difference between balanced and SE could not be this significant, so it must be the cable. I now have the SE and balanced of the LCD braided variant so I can compare more fairly.
Comparing the THX 789 to the Questyle CMA400i, the CMA400i is a lot more sterile sounding. I think the CMA400i sounds like it has more negative feedback going on to keep everything under control. Personally I think it's to the detriment of bass response on the 400i, but makes way for a little bit of mid congestion in the 789. The staging and presentation on the CMA400i however is still absolutely excellent, if you mostly listen to jazz and classical it could be perfect for you. However I listen to a wide variety of genres, so I love me a good quantity of low-end. The THX 789 does not disappoint, especially on a *quality *balanced cable. It should not have costed $400 in my opinion, $300 is pretty good. It does seem to have some flaws on my LCD2f. I never got mids seemingly ringing on any other amp like this (some pianos, low glockenspiel). I'm exaggerating a little of course, it's relative terms.

The littledot mk2 into the ifi iCan SE is still pretty excellent, but construction of the littledot is just not very good. Sometimes I need to poke the tubes into the right position to get the correct balance. I can fix this myself by redoing all soldering.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

I bought the LCD-2 V1 eons ago when they came out, and Alex and Sankar let me update to the V2 a few years later, which I really liked. But with my cervical spine disc disease they were soooo heavy and big that they hurt my neck after listening for one full album.

i traded them for a Moon-Audio Black Dragon cable for my HE-1000se, and I do miss them. They ran great out of my CEntrance DACmini for years, as well as my Eddie Current ZDT. I’d bet money that the Schmitt Audio Magni 3+ would be the best bang for the buck with them these days.


----------



## Rattle

A great inexpensive amp for LCD2F (late 2019 fazor model) is the Asgard 3. For some reason it has insane synergy and was very surprised. I have 2 technically more capable and expensive amps and I could be happy 24/7 ...


----------



## Steve Wilcox

I initially ran my LCD2Fs direct from a Mojo to get that purity of signal but added in my Asgard 1 and felt that added a little special sauce.  A very nice combination.


----------



## Steemax

Just received my LCD-2's from Audeze the other day and have been enjoying them. They are my second pair of headphones after the 6xx so i'm new to this world of Audiophile headphones. 

I have a Fiio K5 Pro, Topping D50s/A50 stack, and the Little Dot MKIII with stock tubes. 

I've read a lot about how LCD-2's don't sound good on the Little dot or tubes in general but i've had the opposite experience. 
They sound amazing on my Topping stack. Tons of clarity but for whatever reason I prefer to listen to them on my Little Dot. I have the LD3 set to the 2nd gain setting which is +4db and I don't go above noon. Absolutely no distortion and it sounds so smooth and buttery to me compared to the very sterile sound out of both Solid state setups I have that get fatiguing after a while. 

Is there something I'm missing? I'm wondering why others are having a bad experience on the LD3, it seems to have plenty of power to run these planars.


----------



## OldSkool

DeadEars said:


> My LCD-2's date back from the first year of Audeze, and I did have to send them back once for splitting wood around the connector, but they are very original.  Recently I picked up a used Schiit Ragnarok, which is rated for speaker use as well as headphone use.  It is outstanding on the early LCD-2's like ours.  It runs in Class A (a modified Circlotron topology which is very cool for an OTL tube guy like me) for headphone use and sound spectacular with my old Audeze cans.  Highly recommended.



My LCD2's are early Fazor and bamboo, circa 2014, and still working flawlessly. I know what you mean about nicely driving them with a Schiit Rag, but my Schiit Mjolnir 1 (balanced SS) sounds identical and is a cheaper option, if you can find one.


----------



## xRaptorxPunisher

Rattle said:


> A great inexpensive amp for LCD2F (late 2019 fazor model) is the Asgard 3. For some reason it has insane synergy and was very surprised. I have 2 technically more capable and expensive amps and I could be happy 24/7 ...


It's a fantastic amp with gobs of power. I actually think the Asgard 2 pairs a little better, less power but the Asgard 2 has this really nice tone, so smooth in the treble, easy listening they're both such a cozy pairing that I find it hard to get rid of it for the Audeze phones. The 3 is such a good amp but I found them more compliments, Asgard 3 sounds more like an improved Jot than an Asgard 2 successor, both are fantastic amps.


----------



## gosxicotet

exhale said:


> I'd definitely look for an amp which outputs more power (mW) around 64ohm. The LCD-2s need somewhere around 1,5W (1500mW) in 70ohm (IIRC, if not, someone please correct me) to be properly "fed".



Hello,
I return to the subject, since I am currently looking for an amplifier for the LCD2.

“1,5W (1500mW) in 70ohm”. is this true? 
With these characteristics it has few head amps and always balanced.

This is the official info taken from Audeze
Minimum power requirement: >100mW
Recommended power level: >250mW


----------



## Baam

Hi,

There's... over 600 pages, lol. I have read like the last 3 but still I will go ahead and ask for a recommendation. My budget is around 500€ (give or take, lol) and I am currently using a CTH that is having some issues. I really like(d) its sound, dark and boomy, perfect for metal, but the build quality is awful (and Drop's customer support is so bad I'm never buying a single thing from them again). What can you recommend me that would fit?

Thanks!


----------



## Ham Sandwich

Baam said:


> Hi,
> 
> There's... over 600 pages, lol. I have read like the last 3 but still I will go ahead and ask for a recommendation. My budget is around 500€ (give or take, lol) and I am currently using a CTH that is having some issues. I really like(d) its sound, dark and boomy, perfect for metal, but the build quality is awful (and Drop's customer support is so bad I'm never buying a single thing from them again). What can you recommend me that would fit?
> 
> Thanks!



The Cavalli Liquid Platinum sold by Monoprice is a great match that will keep the style of sound you like and do it even better. It's a balanced amp so you'd need to also get balanced cables for your LCD-2. Balanced cables direct from Audeze are about $150. The combo of the amp and cable would put you a little over budget, give or take.


----------



## Monstieur (Nov 11, 2020)

Ham Sandwich said:


> The Cavalli Liquid Platinum sold by Monoprice is a great match that will keep the style of sound you like and do it even better. It's a balanced amp so you'd need to also get balanced cables for your LCD-2. Balanced cables direct from Audeze are about $150. The combo of the amp and cable would put you a little over budget, give or take.


There's no reason to buy anything other than the THX AAA amps, unless you want distorted sound.


----------



## Ham Sandwich

Monstieur said:


> There's no reason to buy anything other than the THX AAA amps, unless you want distorted sound.



LOL
The THX AAA amps have a flat soundstage and flat imaging. And don't have good synergy with the Audeze LCD series headphones. The Audeze headphones can have good depth and imaging if the amp can do it. The THX AAA amps don't. Plus their treble is not going to be ideal for listening to metal.

Read the post I responded to and tell him why the THX AAA amps would be perfect for what he's after.

I have a Liquid Platinum and LCD-2 Classic and LCD-2rev2. I listen to some metal and other similar music. The Liquid Platinum is a great match for that music with the LCD-2. The sound is full and powerful and filled in while taming the treble nasties that metal music can have.


----------



## Monstieur (Nov 11, 2020)

Ham Sandwich said:


> LOL
> The THX AAA amps have a flat soundstage and flat imaging. And don't have good synergy with the Audeze LCD series headphones. The Audeze headphones can have good depth and imaging if the amp can do it. The THX AAA amps don't. Plus their treble is not going to be ideal for listening to metal.
> 
> Read the post I responded to and tell him why the THX AAA amps would be perfect for what he's after.
> ...


Amps don't have "soundstage", "depth", or "imaging". They reproduce the input waveform with greater amplitude. If an amp does anything else, it's called distortion and the amp is defective (by design).


----------



## Amish (Nov 11, 2020)

Ham Sandwich said:


> LOL
> The THX AAA amps have a flat soundstage and flat imaging. And don't have good synergy with the Audeze LCD series headphones. The Audeze headphones can have good depth and imaging if the amp can do it. The THX AAA amps don't. Plus their treble is not going to be ideal for listening to metal.
> 
> Read the post I responded to and tell him why the THX AAA amps would be perfect for what he's after.
> ...



(quoting you but not to debate)

I own the Monoprice THX AAA 887 and I also own the LCD2 and they do indeed work very well together. I listen to metal as well. I'm not really sure why Ham dislikes the AAA so much but rest assured, this amp is a great value for the money. I have owned many amps over the years and the AAA compares well with my old BHA-1. (I mean c'mon, I paid $1600 after tax and shipping for my BHA-1 and to get the same SQ out of a $300 AAA or whatever I paid for it is just...crazy)

If anything I think the AAA helps bring the LCD2 to life more so than tubes and I am a tube guy for sure. Now don't get me wrong, I love the LCD on tube(s) but when I tested the AAA I was really shocked at the synergy. I own multiple tube amps and I have to say the LCD2 really loves a good SS amp or even better yet a good hybrid.

So if anything, this only goes to prove that each person is different. I'm sure to Ham the AAA sucks but to others (like me) it rocks. Each to their own and all that jazz.


----------



## Ham Sandwich

Monstieur said:


> Amps don't have "soundstage", "depth", or "imaging". They reproduce the input waveform with greater amplitude. If an amp does anything else, it's called distortion and the amp is defective (by design).



LOL 
Too much feedback reduces soundstage, depth and imaging. Listen to a variety of amps with switchable gain settings where each gain setting has a different amount of feedback. The amount of feedback and implementation of that feedback does affect the style and degree of soundstage, depth, imaging and layering. Same amp. Different amount of feedback. Sound different. I guess those amps are defective by design.


----------



## Rattle

Liquid platinum is great with LCD2. It's my break from the usual Sennheiser thang. Asgard 3 is great with LCD2 also if needing something cheaper. I personally wouldn't bother with much in between those amps.


----------



## Monstieur (Nov 12, 2020)

Ham Sandwich said:


> LOL
> Too much feedback reduces soundstage, depth and imaging. Listen to a variety of amps with switchable gain settings where each gain setting has a different amount of feedback. The amount of feedback and implementation of that feedback does affect the style and degree of soundstage, depth, imaging and layering. Same amp. Different amount of feedback. Sound different. I guess those amps are defective by design.


Those are just different kinds of distortion, regardless of what pseudoscientific terms people call them. The THX AAA amps have no audible distortion, and thus cannot be meaningfully surpassed. If you want to change the frequency response, use an EQ.


----------



## Ham Sandwich

Monstieur said:


> These are just different kinds of distortion, regardless of what pseudoscientific terms people call them. The THX AAA amps have no audible distortion and thus cannot be meaningfully surpassed. If you want to change the frequency response, use an EQ.



LOL. Let me laugh harder.


----------



## LightBlue77

Topping A90?


----------



## Baam

Ham Sandwich said:


> The Cavalli Liquid Platinum sold by Monoprice is a great match that will keep the style of sound you like and do it even better. It's a balanced amp so you'd need to also get balanced cables for your LCD-2. Balanced cables direct from Audeze are about $150. The combo of the amp and cable would put you a little over budget, give or take.





Rattle said:


> Liquid platinum is great with LCD2. It's my break from the usual Sennheiser thang. Asgard 3 is great with LCD2 also if needing something cheaper. I personally wouldn't bother with much in between those amps.



Thanks! It looks great, the problem is that it seems really hard to find here in Europe  I do have a balanced XLR cable, though. I've found it only in a French site and going for a whooping 1199€, which is damn too much, it would be cheaper to import from US, as crazy (and dumb) as it sounds, lol. 

I fear the Asgard being a bit of a downgrade, although I have not tested it so it's just the dumb bias of "more expensive = better" which isn't always true.



Amish said:


> (quoting you but not to debate)
> 
> I own the Monoprice THX AAA 887 and I also own the LCD2 and they do indeed work very well together. I listen to metal as well. I'm not really sure why Ham dislikes the AAA so much but rest assured, this amp is a great value for the money. I have owned many amps over the years and the AAA compares well with my old BHA-1. (I mean c'mon, I paid $1600 after tax and shipping for my BHA-1 and to get the same SQ out of a $300 AAA or whatever I paid for it is just...crazy)
> 
> ...



Thanks as well! Why do you like it better? The THX AAA 887 is actually in the same French site but for 449€, which seems reasonable. I personally love the lil distorsion in the CTH and how it delivers its dark yet engaging sound along the LCD2, so I would like to keep this or get even a bit darker.



LightBlue77 said:


> Topping A90?



I see this one in Amazon UK for 450 GBP, although sold by a Chinese dealer (or again, the French store for 499€). How is the quality? I would kinda like something built like a tank or that their customer won't be a joke like Drop. And more important: Why do you like its sound with the LCD2?

Thanks everyone!


----------



## Ham Sandwich

Baam said:


> Thanks! It looks great, the problem is that it seems really hard to find here in Europe  I do have a balanced XLR cable, though. I've found it only in a French site and going for a whooping 1199€, which is damn too much, it would be cheaper to import from US, as crazy (and dumb) as it sounds, lol.



Are there any European based Amazon sites selling it? Any European based eBay sellers selling it?
The Liquid Platinum uses a switching mode power supply that is able to handle 50-60 Hz power and 100-240 Volts. So the US amp will work worldwide with the power supply that is shipped with it.

The Liquid Platinum really is an excellent pairing with the LCD-2. There is sonic synergy going on. The sound character of the amp merges with the sound character of the LCD-2 to make both sound better than they do individually. It's a case where the whole sounds better than the sum of the parts. My primary listening system is a Cavalli Liquid Fire, Schiit Gungnir multibit, and LCD-2 Classic (or my older LCD-2r2). I've been using that system setup for over 5 years and I really like that sound. The Liquid Platinum is a lot of that same sound. The combination of the Liquid Fire or Liquid Platinum with the LCD-2 just works. It's synergy. I've heard the LCD-3 on other systems and I prefer listening to the LCD-2 on my system than the LCD-3 on other systems. The Liquid Fire and Liquid Platinum get the LCD-2 to perform above its weight class (that's an audiophile cliché but its so fun to say when it is true). I'm recommending the Liquid Platinum and LCD-2 combo because it is a combo that I really like and I've heard systems and setups that cost much more and deliver less enjoyment and synergy.


----------



## Baam

Ham Sandwich said:


> Are there any European based Amazon sites selling it? Any European based eBay sellers selling it?
> The Liquid Platinum uses a switching mode power supply that is able to handle 50-60 Hz power and 100-240 Volts. So the US amp will work worldwide with the power supply that is shipped with it.
> 
> The Liquid Platinum really is an excellent pairing with the LCD-2. There is sonic synergy going on. The sound character of the amp merges with the sound character of the LCD-2 to make both sound better than they do individually. It's a case where the whole sounds better than the sum of the parts. My primary listening system is a Cavalli Liquid Fire, Schiit Gungnir multibit, and LCD-2 Classic (or my older LCD-2r2). I've been using that system setup for over 5 years and I really like that sound. The Liquid Platinum is a lot of that same sound. The combination of the Liquid Fire or Liquid Platinum with the LCD-2 just works. It's synergy. I've heard the LCD-3 on other systems and I prefer listening to the LCD-2 on my system than the LCD-3 on other systems. The Liquid Fire and Liquid Platinum get the LCD-2 to perform above its weight class (that's an audiophile cliché but its so fun to say when it is true). I'm recommending the Liquid Platinum and LCD-2 combo because it is a combo that I really like and I've heard systems and setups that cost much more and deliver less enjoyment and synergy.


I checked and I didn't find any besides that outrageous French one. On eBay, Monoprice sells it new but open box at 440 USD, but with customs and shipping it would end up at around 620 USD, ~523 euros which isn't that bad, although there's two things:

1) I don't know how the warranty would be. I don't wanna be in the same pickle as with the CTH, in which it started giving issues shortly one year after.
2) Honestly? I would rather take my chances and buy it "ilegally", paying customs only if I'm caught, but I believe that using eBay US (or Amazon US) would imply paying customs beforehand.

I will keep looking, I really like the CTH sound, but I've got really ****ed by its build quality and Drop's awful support, so I'm hoping for the Liquid Platinum to be step up on both.


----------



## Ham Sandwich

Baam said:


> I checked and I didn't find any besides that outrageous French one. On eBay, Monoprice sells it new but open box at 440 USD, but with customs and shipping it would end up at around 620 USD, ~523 euros which isn't that bad, although there's two things:
> 
> 1) I don't know how the warranty would be. I don't wanna be in the same pickle as with the CTH, in which it started giving issues shortly one year after.
> 2) Honestly? I would rather take my chances and buy it "ilegally", paying customs only if I'm caught, but I believe that using eBay US (or Amazon US) would imply paying customs beforehand.
> ...



Order direct from Monoprice. They ship to Europe. The LP is currently on sale at Monoprice for $400 USD.
Don't get an open box version. Those are returns. Some of those are returns that the customer has damaged (customers can be really stupid with audio gear). You don't want to risk getting an open box one that has been damaged. Especially if you're in Europe and would need to ship it back to the US to get a replacement.

The Liquid Platinum also shows up in the for sale section here on head-fi. Could buy a used one here as long as you can trust the seller to have not damaged the amp by being stupid.


----------



## Baam

Ham Sandwich said:


> Order direct from Monoprice. They ship to Europe. The LP is currently on sale at Monoprice for $400 USD.
> Don't get an open box version. Those are returns. Some of those are returns that the customer has damaged (customers can be really stupid with audio gear). You don't want to risk getting an open box one that has been damaged. Especially if you're in Europe and would need to ship it back to the US to get a replacement.
> 
> The Liquid Platinum also shows up in the for sale section here on head-fi. Could buy a used one here as long as you can trust the seller to have not damaged the amp by being stupid.


Just checked, I see that the original price was 800 USD and now is at 400... I am going to think about it and I might probably end up getting it, as I estimate it would end up for more or less 550 euros if I have to pay customs. Thanks for all your help!


----------



## Lohb

Baam said:


> Just checked, I see that the original price was 800 USD and now is at 400... I am going to think about it and I might probably end up getting it, as I estimate it would end up for more or less 550 euros if I have to pay customs. Thanks for all your help!


.....am curious how this tube amp fuses with planars...let us know !


----------



## Baam

Lohb said:


> .....am curious how this tube amp fuses with planars...let us know !


I sure will!! And.... I've pulled the trigger, let's see when I get it  and hope not to get caught by customs hahaha

This said, I believe it is hybrid and not just tubes, like the CTH. I've only tested them with it and the iFi Nano BL, which sounds a bit anemic and boring in comparison, so I will be lacking perspective when talking on how they run on different amps.


----------



## Ham Sandwich

Lohb said:


> .....am curious how this tube amp fuses with planars...let us know !



Planars love the Liquid Platinum. There are some planar headphone manufacturers who have used or use the Cavalli Liquid Fire or Liquid Crimson blended hybrids as one of their reference amps. The Liquid Platinum is also a Cavalli blended hybrid design.


----------



## Baam

Quick update on my Liquid Platinum: Not happening. Basically Monoprice made me waste my time, 10 days after cancelled my order and support has been completely useless, no solution or actual explanation given. At this point, I've removed Monoprice from my options and have them join Drop as people I do not want to ever make any kind of business with (despite how little of a deal I am).

Any other recommendation? Quoting myself below:



Baam said:


> Hi,
> 
> There's... over 600 pages, lol. I have read like the last 3 but still I will go ahead and ask for a recommendation. My budget is around 500€ (give or take, lol) and I am currently using a CTH that is having some issues. I really like(d) its sound, dark and boomy, perfect for metal, but the build quality is awful (and Drop's customer support is so bad I'm never buying a single thing from them again). What can you recommend me that would fit?
> 
> Thanks!


----------



## Lohb (Dec 19, 2020)

Can anyone recommend either a speaker SS amp or speaker tube amp (push-pull) that will go with the power requirements of LCD2.1 ?
I'm also mindful of the noise floor on the older sweet sounding monster speaker amps also...anyone find a hidden gem that can be hooked up to on the speaker taps ?


----------



## Canonlon

Is the Dragonfly cobalt a good match for the LCD-2?
Cheers


----------



## Lohb

Canonlon said:


> Is the Dragonfly cobalt a good match for the LCD-2?
> Cheers


Which version...power requirements differ between a few distinct models...you'd be holding it back generally with that.
Look at E1DA PDV2 if you can pair with a warmer meatier dongle style dac/amp...it has a tubey veneer...killer for the price and it drives a wide range of planars.


----------



## Lohb (Dec 19, 2020)

...for E1DA PDV2, you do need a balanced 2.5" terminated cable...so equate that in to your total costs.
The other E1DA stuff is buggy as heck on system interoperabilty which is a shame as his E1DA9038 iterations make a planar IEM sound like you have a full-size planar can on your head...it's crazy !! Just hope his next 9038x dac/amp unit release is extensively beta tested...as he is a good guy (Ivan) with excellent pricing.


----------



## mikecheck95 (Mar 30, 2021)

Anyone using Bifrost 2 and Asgard 3 with their LCD-2f? I’m looking for an amp/DAC for my set under 1k preferably matching...


Edit: I prefer to buy new...


----------



## paulybatz

Get a used RME ADI2 PRO


----------



## NoNameNPC

Anyone use Cayin IHA6 with LCD2C? What about soundstage wide on this amp?


----------



## tamleo

mikecheck95 said:


> Anyone using Bifrost 2 and Asgard 3 with their LCD-2f? I’m looking for an amp/DAC for my set under 1k preferably matching...
> 
> 
> Edit: I prefer to buy new...


It is very warm dac/amp combo. I don't know if it suits your LCD2


----------



## mikecheck95

This was my concern :\ any recommendations?


----------



## tamleo

mikecheck95 said:


> This was my concern :\ any recommendations?


Put most of your money into a good amp. LCD2 love a good and suitable amp much more than a good dac. So you can always buy a better dac later. You can search the Burson Soloist 3x


----------



## mikecheck95

tamleo said:


> Put most of your money into a good amp. LCD2 love a good and suitable amp much more than a good dac. So you can always buy a better dac later. You can search the Burson Soloist 3x


I still need a DAC though…. Any experience with the Burson combo units?


----------



## Deleeh (May 5, 2021)

Hello,
I have never regretted buying the Singxer Sda 2 C.
And meanwhile upgraded with the Singxer Su 2 connected via I2S.


Questsyle Cma 400i is also a nice combo.
It was also tuned for it in development.

Individually as a Dac, of course, you have other options.
There are enough, depending on what you're looking for.
More in the direction of analytical or warm, full sound.


----------



## spookanide

Deleeh said:


> Hello,
> I have never regretted buying the Singxer Sda 2 C.
> 
> Questsyle Cma 400i is also a nice combo.


The older TEAC burrbrown DAC I have really brings out the big swings and low-end warmth that I found the CMA400i lacking. I still own both but I barely use the CMA. 
When I heard the LCD2f+400i combo on its own that's what sold me, but after getting it I just went back to my ifi icanSE amp + seperate TEAC burrbrown DAC combo. It's really down to taste. The CMA400i is much more accurate, but the signature just isn't there for me. I listen to a wide wide variety of music, and imo the questyle falls a bit flat with things like rock which is the type of full sound I prefer. I do lack a bit of refinement and detail, but I don't want to lose the signature along the way.
I've been looking at a chord qutest but they're a bit out of reach even 2nd hand. Bifrost2 is the next best possibly, but I have no way to demo those.

I have been recently looking at that singxer sda2 as well, how do you think it compares to the 400i in case you've heard both? One guy on youtube mentioned it has a musical edge reminiscent of burrbrown DACs.


----------



## Deleeh

spookanide said:


> The older TEAC burrbrown DAC I have really brings out the big swings and low-end warmth that I found the CMA400i lacking. I still own both but I barely use the CMA.
> When I heard the LCD2f+400i combo on its own that's what sold me, but after getting it I just went back to my ifi icanSE amp + seperate TEAC burrbrown DAC combo. It's really down to taste. The CMA400i is much more accurate, but the signature just isn't there for me. I listen to a wide wide variety of music, and imo the questyle falls a bit flat with things like rock which is the type of full sound I prefer. I do lack a bit of refinement and detail, but I don't want to lose the signature along the way.
> I've been looking at a chord qutest but they're a bit out of reach even 2nd hand. Bifrost2 is the next best possibly, but I have no way to demo those.
> 
> I have been recently looking at that singxer sda2 as well, how do you think it compares to the 400i in case you've heard both? One guy on youtube mentioned it has a musical edge reminiscent of burrbrown DACs.


Hello,
I haven't heard the Cma 400i, unfortunately.
I only know from the test that it comes along relatively with very good marks.
And the price-performance ratio is really very good.
And from the reviews here and in various forums, there are differences here and there compared to the Singxer.
Which is normal, otherwise it would be boring.
It tends to be the personal preferences that win out.

For me, the Singxer offered the additional technical possibility of going one step further with the I2S connection without having to buy a new Dac.

And in terms of sound, it really is very musically oriented.
And it harmonises very well with the Lcd 2, especially via XLR it is simply even finer in resolution, more energetic, more powerful in all areas.
I like to listen to it with it, and with the Feliks Euforia, if the tubes fit, it goes one step further.

In the meantime, I listen almost exclusively to the Lcd 2 with the Singxer or Singxer/Euforia.
And I've also come down a bit from the Basshead trip.
But the Singxer also shines as a Basshead fan and doesn't have to hide.

I would still like to listen to the Cma 400i and the Twelve, but I don't really want to buy them.
From my personal point of view, the Singxer SDA 2 C was the right choice.
If something else appealed, the Denafrips Ares 2 would be an incentive to buy, but as a pure Dac it would be a bit expensive for the questioner.

Questyle, Teac are certainly very good candidates, if it is to go a step further later I would say Singxer Sda 2 later coupling with the Su 2 or 6 or other I2S capable devices such as Matrix Audio Spidf 2.


----------



## dagothur

mikecheck95 said:


> This was my concern :\ any recommendations?


I'm a big fan of Audio-GD units.  They last forever, have loads of power and pair well with a variety of headphones.


----------



## iFi audio

spookanide said:


> but after getting it I just went back to my ifi icanSE amp + seperate TEAC burrbrown DAC combo.



This combo slightly on the warm, soft and pleasant side, isn't it?


----------



## spookanide (May 6, 2021)

iFi audio said:


> This combo slightly on the warm, soft and pleasant side, isn't it?


Exactly, and to bring out the sub-bass I click the iCAN SE bass enhancer on +1. As mentioned I could do with a bit more accuracy so I've been considering a DAC upgrade based on AKM4497 or a budget R2R. The questyle 400i AKM4490 implementation just doesn't 'slam' and holds back the crescendo's like a strong negative feedback circuit. Just relatively speaking, and it's not all across the spectrum. First impressions are fast and accurate and immediate, but in direct comparison I just don't like it that much.

If it were up me (going by testimonials) I'd probably own a chord qutest or hugo TT and a violectric v200.


----------



## Golyatx

yo guys, about to receive tomorow my LCD 2 CLASSIC, using with RME ADI 2 DAC FS, anyone have this comb? hows the pairing? any eq reccomendations? 
have F. Clears now, wanna try planars
thanks!!


----------



## Deleeh

Golyatx said:


> yo guys, about to receive tomorow my LCD 2 CLASSIC, using with RME ADI 2 DAC FS, anyone have this comb? hows the pairing? any eq reccomendations?
> have F. Clears now, wanna try planars
> thanks!!


Hello,
Yes, I had the Adi 2 there for a short time.
But not the Lcd 2 c.
If it has too little bass for you, switch on the loudness function.
I wouldn't do anything to the Eq itself until you are familiar with the Signature and its settings.
 Only then would I play around with it.
I didn't like the Ado at all, it was too unmusical and the handling was really bad.
Otherwise, the functions are okay.

My secret tip is to pair it with the Violectric v280 or equivalent.Rupert neve not bad either.

In the end, however, the Eq is again a matter of taste and there is no need to play around with it.


----------



## Crowbar44

mikecheck95 said:


> Anyone using Bifrost 2 and Asgard 3 with their LCD-2f? I’m looking for an amp/DAC for my set under 1k preferably matching...
> 
> 
> Edit: I prefer to buy new...


I used my Asgard 3 MB and LCD-2f's for a while, I have a Bifrost on backorder...

Others have reported that the MB card on the Asgard 3 sounds more veiled than the Asgard 3/Bifrost, though the essential qualities and tonality are very similar.  I think the A3/BF is a great combination, with which you probably can't go wrong with LCD-2fs.

With that said, I upgraded my Asgard 3 to a McIntosh MHA200, it's a profound improvement with the LCD-2f, deeper base, more refined highs, and the best midrange I've ever heard (it better be - the MHA200 costs 6x what an Asgard 3 MB costs...and the Schiit has a built in DAC)!


----------



## Deleeh

Crowbar44 said:


> I used my Asgard 3 MB and LCD-2f's for a while, I have a Bifrost on backorder...
> 
> Others have reported that the MB card on the Asgard 3 sounds more veiled than the Asgard 3/Bifrost, though the essential qualities and tonality are very similar.  I think the A3/BF is a great combination, with which you probably can't go wrong with LCD-2fs.
> 
> With that said, I upgraded my Asgard 3 to a McIntosh MHA200, it's a profound improvement with the LCD-2f, deeper base, more refined highs, and the best midrange I've ever heard (it better be - the MHA200 costs 6x what an Asgard 3 MB costs...and the Schiit has a built in DAC)!


How good is the mha 200 ?


----------



## Whazzzup

11 years and you haven’t concluded what a good amp is for lcd2?


----------



## ThanatosVI

Deleeh said:


> How good is the mha 200 ?


Not many reviews out yet, since McIntosh had delays in their supply chain (like almost everyone else) and the Release was only this month.

The little Feedback we have So far, says it's incredible tho!


----------



## mikecheck95

Whazzzup said:


> 11 years and you haven’t concluded what a good amp is for lcd2?


I know right? I'm just kind of looking for like a "tried and true" option that will get some decent results. I'm surprised there is no consensus. It seems that the "best" options are: Gugnir/moljnir combo or Monoprice Liquid platinum some people liked the Burson Soloist... I don't get it like I shouldn't need to spend more than the headphones themselves when they get loud enough off of a phone. I think JDS Atom could work... but it's quite cheap and plastic... kind of annoying that there are 600 pages but no consensus.


----------



## ThanatosVI

mikecheck95 said:


> I know right? I'm just kind of looking for like a "tried and true" option that will get some decent results. I'm surprised there is no consensus. It seems that the "best" options are: Gugnir/moljnir combo or Monoprice Liquid platinum some people liked the Burson Soloist... I don't get it like I shouldn't need to spend more than the headphones themselves when they get loud enough off of a phone. I think JDS Atom could work... but it's quite cheap and plastic... kind of annoying that there are 600 pages but no consensus.


Well there are tons of options and the headphones are of high enough quality that you can hear improvements in the chain.

Also in 11 years a lot of gear has been released.
As a rough recommendation that should be in the Budget of most LCD-2 users I'd Name
Schiit Bifrost 2 + Schiit Jotunheim 2
If you want EQ throw a Schiit Loki+ in there as well.

Of course you can spend more and get even better sound or spend less and still have something good.
The named mid tier Schiit stack is already delivering great performance though.


----------



## Crowbar44

Deleeh said:


> How good is the mha 200 ?


It sounds absolutely phenomenal, my impressions thread is here if you want the details.


----------



## Whazzzup

well then ill throw down for fun. GSX MK2 is awesome, with anything. although don't own lcd2


----------



## mikecheck95 (May 11, 2021)

ThanatosVI said:


> Also in 11 years a lot of gear has been released.
> As a rough recommendation that should be in the Budget of most LCD-2 users I'd Name
> Schiit Bifrost 2 + Schiit Jotunheim 2


That's fair. I've been considering that combo for a while - it does seem like a good option although I'm pretty torn on the Bifrost... do you have direct experience with the combo? (I'm concerned mainly that it might be a little smooth/warm for the LCD-2). It seems people who have it absolutely love it but people who are critical cite poor measurements. A rep from Audeze said he likes the Chord Mojo and that would be a step up over entry-level DACs/Amps but it's looking like Chord might be releasing something new soon. Hard to say whether Chord will have something new before I would receive the backordered Jot/Bifrost combo.


----------



## Crowbar44

mikecheck95 said:


> That's fair. I've been considering that combo for a while it does seem like a good option although I'm pretty torn on the Bifrost... do you have direct experience with the combo? (I'm concerned mainly that it might be a little smooth/warm for the LCD-2). It seems people who have it absolutely love it but people who are critical cite poor measurements. A rep from Audeze said he likes the Chord Mojo and that would be a step up over entry-level DACs/Amps but it's looking like Chord might be releasing something new soon. Hard to say whether Chord will have something new before I would receive the backordered Jot/Bifrost combo.


So Schiit Multibit/Ladder DACs and Chord DACs sit on two opposite ends of a typical Head-Fi argument, with "subjective listening" folks preferring Schiit Multibit and "measurement" folks preferring the Chord (Qutest, Mojo, etc.).  The Chord is sometimes considered a bit dry by the subjective folks.  As with everything, listen for yourself and decide...


----------



## ThanatosVI

mikecheck95 said:


> That's fair. I've been considering that combo for a while - it does seem like a good option although I'm pretty torn on the Bifrost... do you have direct experience with the combo? (I'm concerned mainly that it might be a little smooth/warm for the LCD-2). It seems people who have it absolutely love it but people who are critical cite poor measurements. A rep from Audeze said he likes the Chord Mojo and that would be a step up over entry-level DACs/Amps but it's looking like Chord might be releasing something new soon. Hard to say whether Chord will have something new before I would receive the backordered Jot/Bifrost combo.


I don't have direct experience, however many here have and it even seems to be a General consensus that they are phenomenal at that price.
I don't Think that it will be too smooth or warm with the LCD 2 unless you dont like the LCD 2 to begin with and want a bright headphone like a focal clear.

Personally the smoother Sound would be a reason for me to get it.
A crisper/brighter alternative for the same price would be a Topping D90 + A90 stack, if you're really concerned


----------



## Whazzzup

concerning chord, start at TT, work your way up.  It’s throaty enough in the low end that you can’t get with the portables, hugo mojo


----------



## mikecheck95

ThanatosVI said:


> I don't have direct experience, however many here have and it even seems to be a General consensus that they are phenomenal at that price.
> I don't Think that it will be too smooth or warm with the LCD 2 unless you dont like the LCD 2 to begin with and want a bright headphone like a focal clear.
> 
> Personally the smoother Sound would be a reason for me to get it.
> A crisper/brighter alternative for the same price would be a Topping D90 + A90 stack, if you're really concerned


I EQ (boosting sub-bass, upper mids and lowering treble) so I'm not too concerned about it affecting the tonality. I'm mainly concerned with how it will affect the technical aspects. I bought the LCD-2 because I find it has excellent dynamics, detail, separation. Ideally I'd find something that enhances those characteristics while leaving the tonality more or less where it is.


----------



## ThanatosVI

mikecheck95 said:


> I EQ (boosting sub-bass, upper mids and lowering treble) so I'm not too concerned about it affecting the tonality. I'm mainly concerned with how it will affect the technical aspects. I bought the LCD-2 because I find it has excellent dynamics, detail, separation. Ideally I'd find something that enhances those characteristics while leaving the tonality more or less where it is.


Then the Schiit stack is amazing. 
Also depending on how you EQ the analogue Schiit Loki could give a cleaner result in maintaining technical aspects.

From my experience Software EQ often comes at a loss of sound quality.


----------



## Contrails

Amps I have heard the LCD-2.2 with. I am guessing the Classic would be similar.

Studio 6
WA6SE
V200
WA22
Burson (can’t remember the model)
O2
April Music Eximus
MDAC

Studio 6 and WA6SE were very very good. Excellent grip on the Bass with good extension. April Music Eximus was amazing but I heard a Rev 1 with it. V200 is too soft with rolled off highs. WA22 was a mess - too soft even in balanced mode. Sounded ok with 7236 tubes. Burson and MDAC were really good but I am a Toob man.  

Neutral or with a touch a warmth and decent power is what I would look for to power the LCD-2.


----------



## tamleo

The best aspect of the LCD2 is its capability of performing natural sound. I don't want to pair the LCD2 with amps and dacs that sound artificially.
The Schiit multibits have quite natural timbre and euphoric sound but there are too much good things when paired with my LCD2 sometimes. Because they are v-shape and dull sounding
I like pairing my LCD2 with dac with Burr-Brown or pcm chip inside and Class A amps but YMMV


----------



## spookanide (May 15, 2021)

Golyatx said:


> yo guys, about to receive tomorow my LCD 2 CLASSIC, using with RME ADI 2 DAC FS, anyone have this comb? hows the pairing? any eq reccomendations?
> have F. Clears now, wanna try planars
> thanks!!


I don't know this amp but I know the LCD2fazor. If you like bass then it helps to compensate the roll-off that you'll probably experience compared to the clears: https://diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com/headphones/measurements/audeze/lcd-2-classic/

You might want to dial in a bit of 'bite' in the upper mids as well as you can see. Planars take very well to EQ, so have fun with that if you enjoy tweaking.



tamleo said:


> The best aspect of the LCD2 is its capability of performing natural sound. I don't want to pair the LCD2 with amps and dacs that sound artificially.
> The Schiit multibits have quite natural timbre and euphoric sound but there are too much good things when paired with my LCD2 sometimes. Because they are v-shape and dull sounding
> I like pairing my LCD2 with dac with Burr-Brown or pcm chip inside and Class A amps but YMMV


I can vouch for burrbrown based DACs, I still use one to this day that I bought in 2014. I am now looking at maybe an upgrade to a topping D70s, but sadly I can't demo.


----------



## Golyatx

Yea thanks @spookanide 
Out of box, the sound was trash compared to F. Clears. 
With EQ, I literally cant believe what they are capable of.
Using this + additional BB function so of total about +11db BB, playing giga loud, playing bassboosted song and they still hold it... its insane! 
Especialy this:


----------



## tamleo

Golyatx said:


> Yea thanks @spookanide
> Out of box, the sound was trash compared to F. Clears.
> With EQ, I literally cant believe what they are capable of.
> Using this + additional BB function so of total about +11db BB, playing giga loud, playing bassboosted song and they still hold it... its insane!
> Especialy this:



I think all LCD lines lacking the high mids range and already having plenty of bass? The Focal Clear is the headphone that I want the most to add to my headphone collection now


----------



## Golyatx

tamleo said:


> I think all LCD lines lacking the high mids range and already having plenty of bass? The Focal Clear is the headphone that I want the most to add to my headphone collection now



Yea man.. 
I just wanted to sold F. Clears bcs "i want that audeze bassssss". 
but...I just put Clears on my head again and holy *** those details..... 
The only reason I want to swap Clears for LCDX (yea i want to spend more then 2C to be more satysfied....) is the capability of planars to handle EVERYTHING I want... 



BUT.. the Clears detail...... 

So Im hoping the X can do both things for me...


----------



## tamleo (May 15, 2021)

Golyatx said:


> Yea man..
> I just wanted to sold F. Clears bcs "i want that audeze bassssss".
> but...I just put Clears on my head again and holy *** those details.....
> The only reason I want to swap Clears for LCDX (yea i want to spend more then 2C to be more satysfied....) is the capability of planars to handle EVERYTHING I want...
> ...


Yeah understood bro. But I don’t know your RME dac+amp combo can push out the Audeze known bass. Planar headphones are strange when it comes to power vs bass quality. Some headamps that have huge power and impressive snr number cannot give my LCD2 the sound quality from the “lower-specs” headamps


----------



## Golyatx

tamleo said:


> Yeah understood bro. But I don’t know your RME dac+amp combo can push out the Audeze known bass. Planar headphones are strange when it comes to power vs bass quality. Some headamps that have huge power and impressive snr number cannot give my LCD2 the sound quality from the “lower-specs” headamps


I think yes, I can have head massage from 20-100hz and still hear clean sound from 100 to xxx Hz ... 

But yea I know that... external amp is also on my wish list... probably Burson Soloist 3XP


----------



## spookanide

tamleo said:


> Yeah understood bro. But I don’t know your RME dac+amp combo can push out the Audeze known bass. Planar headphones are strange when it comes to power vs bass quality. Some headamps that have huge power and impressive snr number cannot give my LCD2 the sound quality from the “lower-specs” headamps


So what are your suggested amps you own/tried?


----------



## Contrails

Out of the box LCD-2F with new pads  (2021) powered by WA6SE.  I changed the Rectifier tube from a GZ32 to a GZ34 Brown base. The Bass definitely woke up after.  Has more Bass than HD660S in regards to quantity and quality.  Dare I say, it's on the same level as a Rev 2.2 Pre Fazor I had (powered by V200 then). 

Or, the new pads are starting to form a better seal. Will change the Rectifier again later on.


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## tamleo (May 21, 2021)

spookanide said:


> So what are your suggested amps you own/tried?


i ll tell you after i get my Burson Soloist that is being shipped oversea


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## spookanide

Writing here again to chime in. I upgraded to a ifi neo idsd DAC going into the ican SE, both with the power supply upgrade. This setup rocks if you want to keep that warmer tone. I also demo'd the Violectric V200 with this as the DAC and that is my next upgrade goal.
Gobs of power, gobs of drive and dynamics. My current setup comes close with the 1 bass up tick on the ican.


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## Crowbar44

Absolutely love the LCD 2F with my McIntosh MHA200, the MHA200's accuracy and neutrality are a nice complement to the LCD-2's warmth IMHO.  However, buying an amp that costs more than your cans doesn't make a ton of sense....so a cheaper Schiit amp (Jotunheim) probably makes more sense.


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## iFi audio

spookanide said:


> both with the power supply upgrade.



Makes quite the difference, doesn't it   ?


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## spookanide

iFi audio said:


> Makes quite the difference, doesn't it   ?


Haven't exactly done AB, but I'd say it's worth it as an affordable little step in the sound improvement. Seems to make the background quieter on the iCAN and I haven't even heard the neo without it lol. If you like the sound as it is, then it's worth improving it even a little.


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## iFi audio

spookanide said:


> Seems to make the background quieter on the iCAN



Exactly. Background quietness, better instrumental separation, smoother sound and less grit are the benefits of clean power in general.


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## ToxicRisk

I've a Topping D90 and a Little Dot MK3SE (hybrid amp) in fully balanced, does the LCD-2 will fit with a hybrid amp?
Thanks


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## Deleeh

Hello,
Yes, there is nothing better to drive planar headphones with a hybrid amplifier.
The only important thing is that the tube on the Ld Mk3 fits.
Unfortunately I can't tell you which tube is good for the Mk3.
You might want to ask in the Little Dot threath if you haven't done anything to it yet.

The Monoprice Liquid Platinum amplifier would be ideal if you are looking for an upgrade.


ToxicRisk said:


> I've a Topping D90 and a Little Dot MK3SE (hybrid amp) in fully balanced, does the LCD-2 will fit with a hybrid amp?
> Thanks


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## Ninja Theory

ToxicRisk said:


> I've a Topping D90 and a Little Dot MK3SE (hybrid amp) in fully balanced, does the LCD-2 will fit with a hybrid amp?
> Thanks


I owned a Little Dot MK3 for a long time. Look for Mullard M8200. It is fantastic in every way with the LCD-2 and LCD-3.


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## ToxicRisk

Ninja Theory said:


> I owned a Little Dot MK3 for a long time. Look for Mullard M8200. It is fantastic in every way with the LCD-2 and LCD-3.


Great, did you run the MK3 with a LCD-2 ?
I've question about tube rolling, does it impact output impedance ?
I also read that output impedance is double when the amp is balanced, true ?


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## iFi audio

ToxicRisk said:


> I've a Topping D90 and a Little Dot MK3SE (hybrid amp) in fully balanced, does the LCD-2 will fit with a hybrid amp?
> Thanks



LCD-2 are thick and warm, so ideally they would benefit from an amp that's quick, resolving and with lots of power to boot.


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## Ninja Theory

@ToxicRisk I agree with iFi, however, you have a D90 DAC which to my ears was pretty clean when I spent time with it, albeit a bit too digital sounding for my liking. That said, it should pair well with the LCD-2 and open options for your amp stage selection. A hybrid could be really good. Personally, I found that the LCD-2 sounded great on tubes, as does my current LCD-3. I upgraded a while back from the Little Dot MK3 to the MKVI+.


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## Contrails (Oct 7, 2021)

Look out for a WA6-SE Gen 1 on the classified forums. Can be had for $600. Power output is around 1900mW @100ohms. The Gen one has no sonic differences from the Gen 2. The WA6-SE is a SET amp and Purrin from the forum that shall not be named rated this amp very highly.  It's not slow and lush sounding like other Woo amps. I have the Gen two and it makes the LCD-2F sing. P.S.  I have heard the Gen 1 with LCD-2.2 PF and got to compare it to an ALO Studio six.  I am using a Topping D70S DAC.

The Liquid platinum is another beast. I remember reading close to 3000mW @100ohms. This is a Hybrid design.


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## fattycheesebeef

Watching this thread for amp options for my LCD2 2021


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## Terco

I use A90 with LCD 2 & X and so far I'm happy.


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## spookanide

I recently went up to an early model Violectric V200 (2011 or so) with the LCD2f 2016. It's paired with the ifi neo idsd used as a stand-alone DAC. It's amazingly dynamic and linear. The bass extends really well. Those little distortions from saturated vocal passages and things like that are just gone. 

The ifi neo idsd has a really good headphone out too! I really wouldn't be unhappy with it, but I'm looking for some more bass quantity.


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## Terco

spookanide said:


> The ifi neo idsd has a really good headphone out too! I really wouldn't be unhappy with it, but I'm looking for some more bass quantity.



The iCan Pro Signature with the Xbass switch can be what are you looking for but the price is high $2300


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## spookanide (Dec 8, 2021)

Terco said:


> The iCan Pro Signature with the Xbass switch can be what are you looking for but the price is high $2300


Been eyeing that for a while too. I actually used an ifi ican SE before this, was amazing but was certainly not the final word in refinement and pulling apart the mids. Still an amazingly capable little thing that I am not planning on selling.

For those not looking for bass quantity or spending Burson money, the entry model Rupert Neve RNHP works really really well too.


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## fattycheesebeef

Side note, I've been hanging my LCD2 on a "banana stand" and it stretches it out of shape. I had to stretch it back to fit it properly


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## iFi audio

Terco said:


> The iCan Pro Signature with the Xbass switch can be what are you looking for but the price is high $2300



Yes, Pro iCAN Signature is costly in the grand scheme, but that's the best one we have and for good resons. Although vast majority of folks who got this product like it a lot for its sound quality, this is a subjective matter. Versatility however is the next big thing worth taking into accout. This amp is like three amps executed in one rather compact package that also is very capable and flexible as a preamp for power amps.


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## NoNameNPC

Have someone compare violectric v280fe via balanced vs gustard h10? Headphones lcd2c, is v280fe have better soundstage width?


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## spookanide (Jan 11, 2022)

NoNameNPC said:


> Have someone compare violectric v280fe via balanced vs gustard h10? Headphones lcd2c, is v280fe have better soundstage width?


I'm a V200 owner myself and the presentation is pretty horseshoe shaped overall where a burson soloist would be paint more of a stage in front of the listener like speakers (exaggerating a little here to give you an idea). The v200 design is from the same era as the v280, so that might give you an idea. I'm not entirely sure what you'd call 'better width' for an amp though. The V200 (and other Violectrics) certainly feels like the final word on planar bass if you enjoy that (and I do).


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## hikaru12

This has probably been asked a bunch of times but what combo for $1k to get the most quantity of bass and smooth, clear mids? I currently am using a HDV820 that can put around 2W max but overkill never hurts. AIO is preferred as this is a secondary system.


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## spookanide

hikaru12 said:


> This has probably been asked a bunch of times but what combo for $1k to get the most quantity of bass and smooth, clear mids? I currently am using a HDV820 that can put around 2W max but overkill never hurts. AIO is preferred as this is a secondary system.


I'd go for a burrbrown based DAC combined with an ifi iCAN SE. I love that little amp and they can be had for cheap 2nd hand.


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## hikaru12

spookanide said:


> I'd go for a burrbrown based DAC combined with an ifi iCAN SE. I love that little amp and they can be had for cheap 2nd hand.


I had it - didn’t sound like a typical Burr Brown - was very clear and a bit harsh to my ears. I’m used to darker R2R Dacs.


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## iFi audio

hikaru12 said:


> didn’t sound like a typical Burr Brown - was very clear and a bit harsh to my ears. I’m used to darker R2R Dacs.



I hear you regarding the general R2R flavor and some of such products can be perceived as a bit darkish, but our Burr-Brown implementations are on the warmer and denser side rather than clear and harsh


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## Sibloo

Hello all, I have been using the lcd2 classic on the headphone out of a Naim xs2, would they benefit from using a specialised headphone amp instead? It 's the same class A amp as the Supernait 2 apparently, but I don't know how that compares to a dac/headphone amp? If so how much should I spend to improve upon it, and any makes that stand out right now?


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## Deleeh

Hello,
the hybrid amplifier on Monoprice Liquid Platinum is one of the reasonable amplifiers to drive the Lcd 2C.
It will be superior to your Naim xs2, which is probably not optimised for headphones.

Do you already have a Dac or do you prefer to use a different source?


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## iFi audio

Sibloo said:


> Hello all, I have been using the lcd2 classic on the headphone out of a Naim xs2, would they benefit from using a specialised headphone amp instead?



It depends on an amp, I think. Probably there aren't many people who own your Naim, so if I were you I'd have a think about what I dislike or would like to change in your LCD-2's performance. IIRC their sound is fairly thick and bassy, so a quick amp that would open them up is my bet.


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## Sibloo

Deleeh said:


> Hello,
> the hybrid amplifier on Monoprice Liquid Platinum is one of the reasonable amplifiers to drive the Lcd 2C.
> It will be superior to your Naim xs2, which is probably not optimised for headphones.
> 
> Do you already have a Dac or do you prefer to use a different source?


Hiya, thanks for that, I need a dac by the looks of it, I have an old Naim cd3 that has no inputs so yeah. The headphone amp of the XS2 should be pretty decent, my CD player sounds good through it. I just want to get a load of my cd's uploaded into flac and play them through it, so looking at options. Most dacs seem to come with a headphone amp don't they? I looked at reviews of the monoprice you mention, it looks a nice piece of kit, but most seem to think it excels with accoustic and my taste is mostly electronic, so I need something with a fast attack and good bass and preferably without the headphone amp? Any ideas? I'm based in the UK too, so it needs to be sourced here. Many thanks


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## Sibloo

iFi audio said:


> It depends on an amp, I think. Probably there aren't many people who own your Naim, so if I were you I'd have a think about what I dislike or would like to change in your LCD-2's performance. IIRC their sound is fairly thick and bassy, so a quick amp that would open them up is my bet.


Hiya, it's a very popular amp in the UK, superceded by the XS3 now. As I said above I really need a Dac to connect to my XS2, any ideas for options in the UK? Many thanks


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## Deleeh

Yes, then I would go straight for the Ifi Dac Signature that you get in England.
And it's technically up to date.

It's a good Dac for beginners and even better than the Topping E30.

However, I can only talk about the Hip Dac 2, but tonally it is certainly in the same direction with the Signature, probably a good corner better.

If you want to hold on to your Naim, it's the Dac itself.
Otherwise, Ify has other products in its range such as the Zen can, Zen Dac, which are also suitable for beginners.

For planar headphones, however, a hybrid amplifier is always the better choice. Unfortunately, it is also very limited on the market.
The Liquid Platinum is simply very popular and suitable in the scene.
It also harmonises very well with the Lcd2C.

Otherwise, there is the Rupert Neve amplifier, which is also solid, but not quite as good as a hybrid amplifier.

If you really want to get the best value, take a look at the Little Dot 1+ hybrid amplifier, replace the standard tubes with 2 Ef94 Brimar tubes and enjoy.


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