# Fooling with:APC H15 + PS Audio UPC200 + Shunyata Guardian



## eyeteeth

My Anyone have no surge protection? thread evolved in the real world (audio, power products, real world,...um we won't go there thanks!) to my borrowing a pair of boxes from my very good nearest dealer. As I went off topic I started this thread just to share what I've heard with my stuff through my ears. Not reviews, nothing definitive, just a personal opinion as I try to determine what suits me most.

 The following where the posts that led to this thread.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *eyeteeth* 
_I've BORROWED an all in one box from my local dealer. As I said earlier I do want a detachable power cord and listened/compared a PS Audio UPC200 and APC H15 hooked up to a McIntosh CD player, McIntosh amplifier set up, driving full range Triangle speakers. Prior to this I was looking at the UPC200 vs the Shunyata Hydra 4 or 6 but I took the opportunity to listen anyway. The dealer said they were suprised that the APC was OK sounding considering it was from a computer surge company. I think it's a glorified Brickwall? I have one for TV, etc. Audio stuff into a Shunyata Guardian.

 Comparing there wasn't much difference between the H15 and the UPC. I thought the UPC a bit fuzzier with looser bass, the APC sounded a bit clearer with tighter bass. But then I'm not familiar with the McIntosh/Triangle gear although I've heard them before. They sounded noisy to me on both occasions. (In hindsight a tougher load speaker would have been a better test).

 So I took the APC home, if I like it I buy it. I plugged in my amp alone and hated it. Definitely softer and veiled! I prefered the Guardian. I went back and forth a bunch of times and the hate diminished until I wasn't so sure. Now I've plugged eveything that can reach into all 12 outlets and will do some listening over the coming days. I'll just swap amp and phonostage back and forth.

 It is a smart little bugger. I might even keep it as a replacement for the Brickwall and continue the search for an audiophile grade box._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *eyeteeth* 
_All plugged in and (I do seem to play the same few songs when listening to gear).....
 Pot Kettle Black (vinyl) by Wilco sounded slightly warbled in vocals and sibilant. Or could it have always been so but now more clearly revealed? Swap back to Shunyata and warble is gone, a touch sibilant. Witchita Lineman (vinyl) cover by Cash, no warble through APC, it seems a little lighter sounding. Shunyata a little darker, more normal. The Shunyata is my normal.

 Yes I shall continue to update hourly for 5 days. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Anyone can chime in about anything at all related to this as it will help me stave off complete surrender to audio-psychosis! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *immtbiker* 
_Plugging everything into my PS Audio P500 was like taking drapes off of my speakers. The improvement is breathtaking. 

 All audio-psychosis aside, it was like when I went from a Pioneer pre-amp to a McIntosh, and before that, going from my Adcom amp to my Cary. *Huge* upgrade! But then again, I have 55 year old 2 wire in my apartment. People who have newer decent power might not notice the difference as much._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *eyeteeth* 
_Yes I'm also thinking that components with a solid power transformer or whatever are less affected by power conditioning. I may borrow the UPC as well as I have to go there to pick up some $12 tubes that their tech guy says he likes much more than the $60 Mullards that he hates which others love...which he said I can buy as well with a laugh. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 They do have the Shunyata Hydra but it's the biggest model and so had not considered due to price. It would be interesting to hear though just to borrow.

 Audio-psychosis for me is when tricks of the mind happen as the component isn't distinguishing it's self as clearly better but also not clearly worse. The bottom line on the APC is that unless it's an improvement it goes back and so far it's losing.

 EDIT: I borrowed the PS Audio UPC200 also but haven't listened through it yet. I think I know why I prefer the Guardian, because it doesn't screw with the sound. I has no filtration! Just a MOV with LED to let you know when it has taken too many hits and needs replacement._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Mr.PD* 
_I just use a Monster HTS2000 MKII.
 It handles the phone line to my DriecTV box as well as all the other stuff.
 Computer is plugged into an APC UPS thingy.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I haven't had lightning strike in years. The one I had blew and old TV and a microwave. The TV cost me nothing to repair (there was an automotive type fuse blown), and the microwave cost me 50 bucks to repair (probably the same kind of fuse, but I took it to a shop)_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *eyeteeth* 
_The dopey thing is that I only just realized (*epiphany*) that I had been enjoying my music for more than a year with the juice straight from the wall no sweetener. No wonder with the AC "conditioned" it sounded weird to me. I haven't listen to the UPC200 yet, it's still in it's box beside my rack. 

 My dealer said the UPC200 is lousy as is the Shunyata Hydra. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 They prefered the less expensive APC. Welcome to bizarro world. 
 I'll just have to whip out the Q-tips and decide for myself. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 (Off topic but isn't it great hearing totally, completely expensive speakers that you hate. ATC's, for practical purposes, zero distortion/zero colouration has ruined me for ordinary (10K+! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) audiophile stuff). 

 One odd thought occured to me which I'll phone my insurance company and ask about is equipment replacement. How much extra a month to be covered for exploded equipment from misfortune? I had this with camera equipment a bunch of years ago. I'm saying if conditioning boxes under a grand are worse than unsweetened juice and extra insurance is just a few bucks a month, I may get an audiophile grade power bar like the BPT's PPC (Pure Power Center) or PS Audio's Juice bar. 






 I'm welcoming to anyone pointing out the error of my ways. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Mr.PD* 
_To be honest about the Monster thing I use. It is supposed to clean up the power a bit. I couldn't tell the difference on my audio equipment. But I have low end audio. It *did* make my TV picture a bit better. Blacker blacks and a wee bit sharper.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 If you like the sound better raw, go with raw. I think the value of filtering depends more on how bad your electricity is than anything else.
 You must have good juice.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *eyeteeth* 
_Apparently so! Who'd have thunk it! When I recognized that the Shunyata Guardian was essentially doing nothing, the APC was doing lots and I prefered the sound of "doing nothing", it was a realization.

 But it isn't over yet. I've still have to try the UPC vs nothing vs APC. The APC is cool though letting you know how much current is passing and what percentage of it's capacity is being used. I like it's claimed electronic and physical separation of the twelve outlets into four banks. It's documentation sucks bad though. It doesn't tell you anything, it's like a sales pitch. What is APC's method of surge protection? I have no idea, they don't say!_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *immtbiker* 
_The thing with the P300/500/600/1000 from PS Audio is that they is a power regenerators. Although they do have filters and AC protection, I would think that the fact that all you are getting out of the outlet is pure 117V 60Hz brickwall voltage, it shouldn't have any negative effect on the sound (at least that's what I concur). The improvement should be quite positive being that fluctuating voltage out of the wall (daytime power grids, refrigerators, microwaves) definitely is going to effect the output of components. If vibration effects quality output, then think about voltage drops or peaks.

 Again, one can bring up the fact that there are thousands of feet of wiring between your electric company and your wall outlet, and only 4 or 6 feet from the wall to your components. Even though there *is* a considerable difference in sound quality (IMHO) when using a high quality PC (a whole 'nother discussion) I believe *that* is due more to a PC's insulation from RFI and the quality of the metal purity when laying along side and on top of 20 interconnects and other PC's.

 But...this is a thread about surge protection and not power, however some units *do* come with both._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *eyeteeth* 
_The P300/500/600/1000 and battery attached version of the APC I'm trying (H15-no UPS/S15 UPS) seem like two approaches to a similar problem, voltage fluctuation and failure. Maybe the APC is leaning in favour of protection and the PS Audio in favour of sonics. I did read the Stereophilr review of the APC S15 which had mammoth mono block amps hooked up to it when they yanked the plug from the wall and all was well.

 I'm so bored of the "thousands of feet of wiring between your electric company and your wall outlet", I'm usually too lazy to make a thousands of feet of water pipe and personal water filtration in the kitchen analogy. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 One of the things I'm going to do is plug my amp straight into the wall with the Nordost Vishnu and hear the results. Those two are in love! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Here's a question: if a power conditioner, especially a regenerator, is working well, then it shouldn't matter the quality of cord attaching it to the wall outlet? As long as it's sufficient gauge._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *velogreg* 
_I have often wondered. Isn't it a bit self defeating to spend alot of money on fancy aftermarket power cords then introduce a surge protection component in the flow? Wouldn't the surge protection power strip degrade the quality of the juice? At what point, quality or price, should you not go below or risk suffering on signal quality down the line?_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *immtbiker* 
_Of course. As long as it is a sufficient guage and has adequate shielding, then a high priced cord would be a waste.

 I posed this question to the engineers at PS Audio (already knowing full well the answer), asking why they don't offer one of their own $100 power cords on a $2100 unit, and the answer they gave me is the one posed here._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *eyeteeth* 
_I've pulled this off topic and think it's best for me to start a different thread as I have now listened to the various gadgets._


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## eyeteeth

BEGIN RAMBLE:

 So....I did listen through the UPC200. 

 Trying to be logical about it all, the first thing I did was arrange everything with outlets facing me for easy plugging/unplugging. I first compared the Guardian to the APC. APC to UPC200. Both those to the wall's outlet (amp only). 

 I'm going to listen and compare more and return one or both Tuesday. The APC did improve it's standing. It is most certainly a clarifier compared to the Guardian and UPC200 which are closer alike than I would have guessed. The wall is interesting, it's softer (more natural?) with a smaller soundstage but maybe more 3D(?!). I'll be trying that again as it was kind of odd. They're each only artificial representations anyway. 

 As for the "clarifier" (APC) I don't know if it's a false clarity or it removed more noise than the others. The UPC200 had the same slight fuzziness in comparison I heard at the dealers. 

 I'll do some more real world listening-I was turning up Coldplay's modern mastering sounding X&Y through the "clarifier" and well it's a bit of an S&M trip with equal amounts of pain and pleasure.

 The only other things I listened to were Dylan's 'Tell Me That It Isn't True' from 'Nashville Skyline' and 'The Man Comes Around' LP's opening track and 'The First Time Ever I saw Your Face' which incidentally was what caught my attention when I first plugged the Nordost Shiva power cord into my amp a week ago. That Shiva has been replaced with a twice the gauge Nordost Vishnu. I never recognized the sound of the room and the reverberations of voice of that song or the buzz of strings during two opening strums of 'Witchita Lineman' until the Nordost went in. Doubters will say I was psychologically looking. Funny then that I never heard to such an extent the other hundred times I listened, sometimes with new gear and psychologically seeking then as well. 

 These new things apparent are like footnotes in a historical account. I do question if they are essential to the musical event or not. More detail isn't really what I'm after but the APC is delivering that a bit. It is definitely a few shades lighter than the other two. I should mention that the Shunyata Diamondback PC used on all three to connect to the wall (Guardian has a captive Diamondback) is a so called noise reducer or something like that. In the past I had one, couldn't hear it, I added another and liked the affect very much, relaxed and mellow. Then I added a third and it was like someone installed a treble knob on the system and turned it counterclockwise...I wanted to fetch a fog horn to guide ships safely into harbour.

 And speaking of cords I did compare the APC's stock cord to the Diamondback. I was told that when asked, the APC folks said it wouldn't matter so long as sufficient gauge etc were met and that's what I was hoping for, for considerable savings. Well they were wrong. The APC H15 is responsive to what cord is feeding it AC.

 Preliminarily of course, but given the clarity factor I'd say the APC could give a Shunyata Hydra a run for it's money as clarity seems to be one of it's characteristics from what I've read. I want to compare them.

 More another time.


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## eyeteeth

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *eyeteeth* 
_Trying to be logical about it all, the first thing I did was arrange everything with outlets facing me for easy plugging/unplugging._

 

The logical thing wasn't the common sense box arranging but the sequence of amp and phonostage listening between the different outlets. I just didn't bother describing the procedure.


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## eyeteeth

What possessed me to chose the title "Fooling with"? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


 I was turning up Coldplay's modern mastering sounding X&Y through the "clarifier" and well it's a bit of an S&M trip with equal amounts of pain and pleasure. 
 

Before shutting down last night I listened to a few songs from X&Y and realized I was getting satisfying results at a volume level much lower than I'm accustomed to. Ordinarily my speakers (84db) don't fully open up until just before 9:00 on the rotary volume knob. But via the APC, music sounded quite fine before that. Going up to 9:00 and sure there was that step up but it was without the usual insufficiency before getting there.

 There's always a down side?:I noticed something else for the first time. With quiet music, like the openings of some of the Coldplay songs, and at this lower volume what was that very faint, annoying whine I could hear?! With head askew, like a cocker spaniel I once knew, I went in search and discovered it was my transport spinning. My first though was to blame the APC for introducing some bizarre electrical property to it to get it to sing so. Then thinking about it I thought this must be the result of the lowered noise floor I've read accounts of in every power conditioner/power cord review I've ever read. Sure I've read about it plenty but this would be my first really obvious experience of it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Reading around a bit on things APC, they're of the objectivist audio camp and don't mind pointing out what they see as fuzzy science in other power conditioning products. 

 I'm thinking very favourably towards this unit but I still have to give it more listening. I need to do what I do often which is to play some hard music at roof raising levels and see if the "clarifier" is a benefit or a burden.


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## eyeteeth

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *eyeteeth* 
_I need to do what I do often which is to play some hard music at roof raising levels and see if the "clarifier" is a benefit or a burden._

 

I think I'll just listen to music tonight and tomorrow without doing any equipment comparisons and see if I enjoy. I'll use a DVD-Audio compilation I made that has about anything my heart desires on it from the Waterboys, Springsteen and Wilco to Mayhem, Burzum and Dimmu Borgir. It's just that you have to hit the skip button like 50 times to get to what you want. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I like these threads without any disagreements, so peaceful.


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## DarkAngel

Those *APC H15* units are really cheap on the the web $200-250 for a 12 outlet balance power regenerator (compared to PS Audio, Blue Circle, BPT etc) but of course the parts used inside are more generic I'm sure.

 The power regenrators (balanced power) are very energy inefficient and will at least double the power consumed by everthing plugged in overall compared to passive device like Shunyata Hydra or PS Audio UPC200.

 I find the *UPC200* has a touch of euphonic sweetening or warming of sound, but definitely better overall solution for quality sound than PSA ultimate outlets for me. Many people will like this sweetening effect.

 The *Shunyata Hydra 4 or 6* cost much more but have sharper detail and greater clarity vs UPC200, so depends what your system needs. 

 Also of course the *AC cords used between conditioner and gear* effect sound, UPC200 with silver AC cords will sound faster more detailed than Shunyata Hydra 4 with large guage copper cords etc.


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## eyeteeth

Well *DA* I'll tell you what I have right now...total ear fatigue! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I skipped through some of the tougher stuff in terms of brightness like Satyricon trying to get to the tonally sane Wilco but I just gave up. 

 It was fun at first, Pearl Jam opens the DVD-A, and I was praising the APC in my mind for it's speed and articulation. It was just plain fun with a capital F. It really does the job of lowering noise way beyond the UPC200. There's just one thing, it turns bright with prolonged listening (or it's always bright?). It's not obviously bright, just a little lighter. It may be the great detail that fatigues? 

 Now my dilemma is that my power cords are different and they're rather detailed Nordosts. Who to blame? As my first impression of the Nordost Shiva was of it's deepness, it's richness plus a little more detail as a side dish, I don't think I should point my finger too much there. The Nordost Vishnu is about the same with more weight. I noticed the APC to be lighter of tone right from the start.

 It's a shame as the APC is really so admirable for what it does, it is kind of great and a steal for the price. I'd think it'd be perfect for lots of people not so already laden with detail. I've got detail that has simply crossed the line now. It's a subtle line but one that kills slowly but surely! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Too bad I'll be too busy tomorrow to do some cord swapping and A/Bing the UPC200/Shunyata again.

 For a darkish system the APC would be amazing.


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## eyeteeth

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *eyeteeth* 
_It's a shame as the APC is really so admirable for what it does, it is kind of great and a steal for the price. 

 Too bad I'll be too busy tomorrow to do some cord swapping and A/Bing the UPC200/Shunyata again._

 

I've plugged the audio stuff into the UPC200 and will go for it tonight, see if it fatigues.

 Yeah the APC...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...it'll even tell you if your dwellings wiring is faulty!
 I'm not for bells and whistles but it is amusing to see how much current is passing and what percentage of capacity is being used. I never got past 17%!


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## eyeteeth

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *eyeteeth* 
_I've plugged the audio stuff into the UPC200 and will go for it tonight, see if it fatigues._

 

A spin through the DVD-A (it's 80 tracks BTW) through the UPC200 wasn't as nerve racking. I didn't get a chance to completely recover and ideally I'd like to repeat as closely as possible what I did, exactly the songs listened to again tomorrow. I'll try.

 Radiohead's 'Everything In It's Right Place', despite being electronic, has always been an enveloping relaxed song. But too strongly backlit and it's wrong, too tense. Via the UPC200 it returns to normality as I know it.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DarkAngel* 
_I find the *UPC200* has a touch of euphonic sweetening or warming of sound, but definitely better overall solution for quality sound than PSA ultimate outlets for me. Many people will like this sweetening effect.

 The *Shunyata Hydra 4 or 6* cost much more but have sharper detail and greater clarity vs UPC200, so depends what your system needs. 

 Also of course the *AC cords used between conditioner and gear* effect sound, UPC200 with silver AC cords will sound faster more detailed than Shunyata Hydra 4 with large guage copper cords etc._

 

That's very interesting and useful the cord switch on the UPC or Hydra determining how similar they are. 

 I've read a number of times the Furutech review at Positive-Feedback. It is suppose to have a sweetening affect as well. I had discounted it but now I'm more interested.


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## DarkAngel

It's hard to switch out Power Conditoners, since must power down audio system first, do switch and then power back up everything. Really needs few hours for everything to warm up and settle back in even if all gear has 200hrs use and fully broken in.

 I do like the *PSA UPC200* and use it in system 2, much bettter sounding than PSA Ultimate Outlets which I briefly owned few years ago and then sold them feeling they restricted dynamics too noticeably. I like that both pairs of outlets are fully isolated so you can seperate digital and analog gear with some effectiveness, much more versitile and cost effective product.


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## DarkAngel

Also it takes time with power conditioners to fully grasp what they do to the sound. Some of the very best most effective ones when they remove layers of grunge and haze may initially sound *dull and relaxed* compared to the distortion/glare you were used to......but after extended listening you realize all the detail and more is there just blacker background with more relaxed fluid smooth presentation.


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## zdogg

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DarkAngel* 
_Also it takes time with power conditioners to fully grasp what they do to the sound. Some of the very best most effective ones when they remove layers of grunge and haze may initially sound *dull and relaxed* compared to the distortion/glare you were used to......but after extended listening you realize all the detail and more is there just blacker background with more relaxed fluid smooth presentation._

 

This is exactly my impression; I noticed this phenomenon recently with a (relatively low end) Monster HTS3500 versus no conditioning.


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## DarkAngel

ET
 Did you hear about *APC H15* before your dealer showed it to you?

 At under $250 new on web could be fun just to play with and use for low power front end gear (CDP, DAC, Preamp, Headphone amp) and run power amp or integrated amp through passive unit like PSA UPC200 or Shunyata Hydra 4.........that way power inefficency of APC H15 regenerator is minimized since only low power gear are connected and little waste generated

 Actually the APC H15 may not be a true power regenerator, they call it AVR (auto voltage regulation) which maybe different and may not waste/duplicate energy to same degree at balanced power unit??????

 Also there is even cheaper *APC H10* with almost same features as H15 but simpler display and lower power output (which is fine if you are using only for low power audio gear) for under $200 on web


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## eyeteeth

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DarkAngel* 
_ET
 Did you hear about *APC H15* before your dealer showed it to you?_

 

No *DA* I asked them what they had and they mentioned having just brought in the APC, which they were totally skeptical about, being from a non-audiophile based company. I think they went under the spell that had me when listening only short term and or they listened with equipment that wasn't highly resolving.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DarkAngel* 
_At under $250 new on web could be fun just to play with and use for low power front end gear (CDP, DAC, Preamp, Headphone amp) and run power amp or integrated amp through passive unit like PSA UPC200 or Shunyata Hydra 4.........that way power inefficency of APC H15 regenerator is minimized since only low power gear are connected and little waste generated

 Actually the APC H15 may not be a true power regenerator, they call it AVR (auto voltage regulation) which maybe different and may not waste/duplicate energy to same degree at balanced power unit??????

 Also there is even cheaper *APC H10* with almost same features as H15 but simpler display and lower power output (which is fine if you are using only for low power audio gear) for under $200 on web_

 

APC has a lot of products I've learned. You may be confusing models. APC H15 is not a regenerator. It's just a conditioner/surge protecter that can be had for $289 & $350 new at Audiogon. Now available in black. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Add the battery back up and it's an APC *S*15 for an extra $1000.
 Looks identical to the H15 but the bottom box is the battery I assume?
 It won a Stereophile award after this review.





Link

 Those lights can be lowered or brightened three steps either way or turned off entirely. Also it turns on gear attached one by one not all at once, which is cool.

 I still think it's a great addition to the right system. You're right about it in an AV system, I'd bet it makes a big screen TV very clean indeed. 

 *******************
 Me, I've got the UPC200 playing with the Vishnu to the wall and it's more to my taste. I consider the Vishnu to be high resolution rather than high detail as it isn't highlighting any area over another. 

 In terms of value, new, the Vishnu may not be worth the extra $320 at $650 over the $330 Shiva. But 2nd hand we're talking $200 vs $300-$350 and it's definitely worth the extra. I'll probably sell my Shiva.


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## DarkAngel

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *eyeteeth* 
_No *DA* APC has a lot of products I've learned. You may be confusing models. APC H15 is not a regenerator. It's just a conditioner/surge protecter that can be had for $289 & $350 new at Audiogon. Now available in black. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 *******************
 Me, I've got the UPC200 playing with the Vishnu to the wall and it's more to my taste. I consider the Vishnu to be high resolution rather than high detail as it isn't highlighting any area over another. _

 

OK add at Audiogon explains better exactly what the auto voltage regulation (AVR) feature doesn't do for *APC H15*

 ***********
_The APC performs its voltage regulation by supplementing the existing voltage coming from the wall outlet. It does not use a mechanically driven variac (essentially a large, adjustable transformer), nor does it reconstitute the complete 60Hz waveform at 120V. Both approaches are used by other manufacturers, but APC rejected them. A variac, they determined, was too slow and could produce excessive overshoot when the line voltage recovers. And devices that reconstitute the full waveform are extremely inefficient, using much of the power they draw from the wall outlet to supply their own needs, even before considering the current required by the equipment connected to them. _************

 So with that in mind *APC H15* should not consume much more energy than audio gear draws from unit............so how do you sum up APC H15, are you going to *keep it* or do you like PSA UPC200 better?


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## eyeteeth

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DarkAngel* 
_So with that in mind *APC H15* should not consume much more energy than audio gear draws from unit............so how do you sum up APC H15, are you going to *keep it* or do you like PSA UPC200 better?_

 

I think the APC H15 is an amazing bargain. 

 But what it does is push my system past the line of comfortable long term listening. Keep in mind I'm well into transparency country with ATC, Nordost, Benchmark (NO Nordost for him! Gadzooks, if anything the DAC1 needs to be dumbed down and wear a wool sweater!). Had those Nordost power cables not arrived a few weeks ago, who knows, maybe the APC would be staying. It's boxed by the door as is the UPC200 to be returned but I'll bring home a new UPC200 as this one is their demo model.

 Musically the UPC200 is OK. Some swapping was in there also, including cutting the UPC200 out altogether and returning to the Guardian. I tried to induce listener fatigue with the UPC/Nordost by going through the DVD-A for a few hours this afternoon at good volume levels and failed. In fact at the end I was right into the music, foot tapping, head shaking, acting the happy fool, I was myself again! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 I will have to get use to the fact that via the Nordost/UPC combo music is louder, while I'm fairly programmed to know the levels of specific music beforehand by looking at the volume knob.

 The UPC200 is probably not the final stop for me but from a system building angle it will allow me to move around and better assess power cords. That was the failing of the Guardian, it's cord was captive, a dead end. The UPC will let me progress. I suppose I could Audiogon a unit and save $100 but I think it's only fair to buy it from the dealer, which is what I'll do within the hour.


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## DarkAngel

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *eyeteeth* 
_The UPC200 is probably not the final stop for me but from a system building angle it will allow me to move around and better assess power cords. That was the failing of the Guardian, it's cord was captive, a dead end. The UPC will let me progress. I suppose I could Audiogon a unit and save $100 but I think it's only fair to buy it from the dealer, which is what I'll do within the hour._

 

UPC200 pretty easy to get used at Audiogon for $300-350......you are right though that dealer deserves some compensation for your "experiments"


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## eyeteeth

Just a last comment to finish off the mini-saga 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 as I may have made my decisions but still had questions of the musical results and hadn't finalized that opinion.

 After all the swapping and wrestling of the gear there was quite a mess of spaghetti to clean up, which yesterday I did do; untangled and kept apart there'd probably be sonic benefit as always from this. Also, changed the configuration to what I had planned all along-Vishnu from wall outlet to UPC200. Today was what I was curious about returning to listen with a fresh head, fresh ears and really not knowing what to expect, but hoping to not get that dreaded hyper-detail. I still have this mental block of expecting over detail and sterility from Nordost.

 On went the Verve LP Urban Hymns and to my delight I was treated to deep, rich music. I didn't even notice detailing nor did it occur to me at the time. Sweet! I put on Tool's Undertow and it's not as good sonically as I remembered. Figuring I'm still in transparency country I put on audiophilia to test tonal neutrality in the form of the 200g Classic Records recent pressing of 'Who's Next'. Deep, rich, even dark but without obsuration of high frequencies. Walloping! Instant transformation from audiophile to music lover, shameless involuntary singing and foot stamping.

 I'm very pleased with the Vishnu/UPC200 combo, so much so that I've another Vishnu coming to go between UPC and amp. 
 I'm addicted! $
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




$

 If you're going to try a Vishnu, *be afraid, be very afraid* for your wallet! 
 Now I'm curious about the new family of Nordost interconnects, particularly the Heimdall. 
 "HELP" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Off topic but how anyone can say cables 'n cords sound alike sure haven't listened to these babies. 
 Unless you're ears completely suck!


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## omedon

Have you tried the UPC-200 with a PS Audio PC? I wonder how well they complement.


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## DarkAngel

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *eyeteeth* 
_I'm very pleased with the Vishnu/UPC200 combo, so much so that I've another Vishnu coming to go between UPC and amp. 
 I'm addicted! $
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




$

 If you're going to try a Vishnu, *be afraid, be very afraid* for your wallet! 
 Now I'm curious about the new family of Nordost interconnects, particularly the Heimdall. 
 "HELP" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Off topic but how anyone can say cables 'n cords sound alike sure haven't listened to these babies. 
 Unless you're ears completely suck! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

You are going to go *broke* buying expensive AC cords, one Nordost Vishnu costing much more than PSA UPC200 itself! Cheaper alternatives for fast/detailed sound:
 Shunyata Diamondback (audiogon used)
 Zu Bok (ebay auctions)

 I may actually get *APC H15* for home theater use, very feature rich for under $250 no other AC conditioner product can match.


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## eyeteeth

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *omedon* 
_Have you tried the UPC-200 with a PS Audio PC? I wonder how well they complement._

 

I have no idea as I've never had a premium power cord before. I have to presume that others, whether a top of the line PS Audio, Wolff, Kimber, etc, offer dramatic improvements.


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DarkAngel* 
_You are going to go *broke* buying expensive AC cords, one Nordost Vishnu costing much more than PSA UPC200 itself! Cheaper alternatives for fast/detailed sound:
 Shunyata Diamondback (audiogon used)
 Zu Bok (ebay auctions)_

 

The Vishnu replaced a Diamondback, I had three. The Diamondback if OK, as I've already described it's affect in my system, but the Vishnu has been way beyond it...at least for me. Of course it could be less dramatic for someone else. The differences between the APC and UPC were minor through the McIntosh/Triangle system yet major through mine and I would guess the Diamondback/Vishnu would be less dramatic in theirs compared to mine. With that idea of "your mileage may vary" I thought this UK forum listener's experience "I borrowed a Nordost Shiva.." interesting to read as the circumstances of curiousity mirrored mine although the end result differed. 

 I thought I was done with this thread but that last listening evaluation was so dramatic that I had to report it. You know me and that I go with my ears over what I've read although reading something can intrigue me of course. The only description of the Shiva/Vishnu I read was Roy Gregory's account in HIFI+ and I don't as yet have a bead on Roy as to his accuracy versus his enthusiasm. I've seen him dislike gear such as the active version of the ATC SCM20, so he doesn't gush over everything, which is reassuring. He's a Valhalla devotee and his take was that the previous generation Nordost top PC the El Dorado was equivalent to other lines' top dogs, something I've read from other reviewers in the past. He wired a Cyrus system with standard good quality cords, got used to it's sound then the Shiva _"true to it's namesake, it promptly laid waste the world. From the first note of the first track the yawning chasm of it's superiority almost swallowed my credulity."_ I've severely abbreviated the account in order to follow Head-Fi's copyright guidelines.

 There could have been any number of PCs to choose from in the $200 used range, surely with accompanying glowing reviews also. But it was something else that Roy said that caught my attention, more so than persuade or convince me actually. Regarding the Cyrus gear, _"There is no way that spending that money on a better CD player, a PSX, rack, interconnects or any other upgrade is going to come close to what these leads can do."_

 I understood intellectually what he was saying, but without having that experience myself I wanted to try. *****Right now I'm reminded of *Markl*'s warning in the past of "just wait 'til you start trying power cords"*****





 Now I hear how Roy was correct about upgrades, again at least in my system. The reality and logic are quite evident if your speakers or some other gear are very good value in the $2000-$3000 and above range, and a meaningful upgrade will cost a few thousand dollars, $300 for a power cord is a bargain.

 Also, with all the A/B/C/D swapping short term and long term, I feel there is both an objective and subjective reality to wire. Often the quick switch back to the stock cord brings into focus the objective reality and sort of calibrates the difference (blind listening is here). Whereas the long term listen is ruled by the subjective and one's thoughts can lose some perspective often towards the positive. But that is how we listen to music, in the long term, and it is more important I think. It is a valid reality as shown by how the APC was so impressive in the short term of A/B, whilst in the long term subjective listen became wrong for my particular system.


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DarkAngel* 
_I may actually get *APC H15* for home theater use, very feature rich for under $250 no other AC conditioner product can match._

 

Be sure to let us know how it works out!


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## MikeW

though your overall review of the H15 is negative, im really interested in this unit, im attacted to the power isolation it provides, AVR, the 5 year warrenty dosent hurt either, and UL listing (rare thing for power conditioners) I liked my Monster 1000 at first, but now that i've got better power cords I can hear differnces it makes to the sound, and they are not good, my amp sounds best plugged right into the wall, I was getting glare and harshness out of the Power conditioner, which is really odd as those are the things it should eliminate. My new power cords sound alot better then the stuff I was using before. Im a bit disapointed that i've grown to dislike the monster unit. Though I still use it for my Dac which sounds fine connected to it. The price on the H15 is very attractive as well, 215 shipped from buy.com. What I want to know is if you think the brightness/fatigue you heard is just bad synergy with your setup or do you think it's a sound signature that H15 will impart on all sound equipment connected to it. My other option is a used UPC-200 off audiogon, but at ~150$ more with much less outlets, less isolation, etc. (2 banks vs 4) It also lacks AVR.


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## MikeW

Hmm im not very paitient, I know I should wait and get somthing better. I'll probably hold off on these for awhile, I doubt either can really compare to somthing like a BPT-1. From what I gather, Balenced power is in a whole different league. The BPT website has some bold claims and seems to get alot of love with reviewers. Has anyone compared a conditioner with balenced power vs a quality unbalenced conditioner? How do they compare?


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## MikeW

Hmm further research has even more forum dwelling folks claiming that BPT products limit dynamics.. this **** should not be so complicated. Somthing weird is going on with those APC H15 units, the price jumped from 200-250$ to 312-480$ at most vendors overnite. There's still a few around at the low 200$ mark.


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## eyeteeth

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MikeW* 
_Hmm further research has even more forum dwelling folks claiming that BPT products limit dynamics.. this **** should not be so complicated. Somthing weird is going on with those APC H15 units, the price jumped from 200-250$ to 312-480$ at most vendors overnite. There's still a few around at the low 200$ mark._

 

You're not reading too much into it? I see the same prices for new at audiogon for APC $289 & $350. 
 I liked what I saw of the BPT CPC for $350-click "details".

 I've been puzzled by claimed restriction of dynamics in the past, especially for a headphone rig. Some boxes will pass 2,300 watts but they restrict dynamics to someones Sennheisers. That needs to be explained to me. The K-1000 needs like 5 watts or something. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm liking a power cord so I feel funny suggesting someone else is imagining restricted dynamics.


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## MikeW

Im talking about the vendors for APC products that you see on Froogle and Pricegrabber, not audiogon. There's also a few on ebay as well. About 75% of them raised the price signifgantly over the past 3 days. I'd like to try a APC H15 but it's to much of a pain in the ass to risk it and not like the results, i wouldent be able to tolerate any fatique or harshness. The CPC for 350$ does not even have the isolation transformer, or isolated sockets. You have to pay an extra 150$ to just get a 2.5amp isolation transformer /sarcasm woohoo that should power my dvd player /sarcasm. Im leaning towards the UPC200 the more I read about it, it actually uses a balenced transformer like device to cancel common mode noise and then output unbalenced powr, that's pretty clever. Though im not to impressed with some reviewers claiming it warms up the sound, i'd rather it be clean and transparant, but not even the Hydra's are transparent. Why can't their be a clean, transparant, affordable surge supressor and power conditioner /sigh.


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## MikeW

Doing alot moe reading on UPC-200 and BPT stuff, im confident the UPC-200 would be a good product, about half the opinions i've read about it claim that it makes a differnce in audio quality, the other half claim it's a good surge protector. With the BPT stuff though, almost 100% of people that have heard it claim that there's an unmistakeable differnce that you don't have to try hard to notice. Most owners of upc200 say that the differnce's are subtle and you have to listen for them. With reviews and opinions like that it is hard to pull the trigger on the upc-200 when I may find myself wanting more in the future. It wasent but a couple months ago that I purchased my Monster PC1000 and my DAC and im already looking to replace them, i'd have been better off getting the better stuff from the get-go. To many choices, I love to hate this hobby.


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## Welly Wu

eyeteeth:

 I auditioned the APC S15 last weekend in my home. The bugger is big, heavy, and it has that "bling" look to it. Sonics wise, it doesn't do anything which in my experience is classified as a plus. "First, do no harm" Hippocratic Oath kind of mojo. I kind of tested it by hooking up my entire system et al including the HP desktop and Samsung LCD HDTV and I turned off the power to my home. The battery lasted a whole frickin' 10 minutes. Of course, my devices are not exactly power hungry compared to a proper hi-fi stereo. It is so neat. There are so many different configurations depending upon your custom installation needs that this thing will just work. It is very expensive at $1500 USD, but I feel it is a must have for me sometime next year. My BPT is only rated 300 watts with 2.5 amperes for 120VAC maximum draw.

 I got real curious about this APC S15 and I am glad for having had the opportunity to audition it. I know it is not audiophile kosher, but I can put my entire AV, headphone hi-fi, and computer together on one wall socket and still have plenty of reserve power for backup. Cool.

 Just wanted to update your thread. If I get a profit-sharing bonus at the end of this year, which may very well be the case, then I think I will spring for it sooner.

 Soo cool. Impressions, pictures, and a review to come.


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## eyeteeth

The one I tried was without battery. What I remember of it was that after all the intense leaning in to listen with superior sounding software I just tried to ignore it and play a more standard set of music, do so for a number of hours, and man did that ever become fatiguing. Maybe the thing worked as advertised, lowering noise floor and increasing detail, but it sure wasn't enjoyable for me in my system. My system became more artificial sounding. Again maybe it was a system thing and that system is different now with larger three way speakers, proper room treatment, basic stock cabling and nothing between DAC, amp and wall.


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## Welly Wu

I discovered that the APC S15 has virtually no end user retailers available. Except one: http://www.avscience.com . These are the same guys and gals that run http://www.avsforum.com . I contacted Jason their salesman about the unit for stock availability, pricing, and shipping information. They are a very reputable high end custom home theater design store.

 So, I'm thinking about buying mine this October or December right after the Meridian 808i. I also need to buy a black Salamander Archetype 3.0 for my growing AV system.

 Looking good so far.


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