# JenaLab recabled R10



## Andrew_WOT

Just shocking 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




APureSound - Where The Music Is Always Pure
 Kudos to Alex for bringing it back to life.

 R10 owner's story
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/4126483-post62.html


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## penger

Yikes. What a sad story... good ending though.


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## powertoold

Snake oil I tell you! Snake oil!

 Does this mean JenaLabs messed up that R10? Or did someone try to recable themselves (messing it up), gave it to JenaLabs, then they tried their best to cable it?


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## xand1x

Alex does a great job. I have a lot of respect for the work he puts into his customers headphones 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (Yes I am somewhat biased)


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## tkam

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *powertoold* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does this mean JenaLabs messed up that R10?_

 

Yes


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## penger

What's kinda interesting is aloaudio actually made a huge post about the JenaLabs R10 a couple months ago. I wonder if Ken over at ALO knew about this. He gave a few pairs of R10s recabled by them a listen...


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## n_maher

I'd like to hear this story from the R10 owner's perspective. I'm rather shocked to hear that Jena offered nothing in the way of compensation after apparently nearly destroying a rather expensive OOP headphone.


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## mulveling

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Andrew_WOT* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just shocking 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



APureSound - Where The Music Is Always Pure
 Kudos to Alex for bringing it back to life._

 

I can't think of a better situation to summon the mobs, pitchforks, and torches. THANK YOU for having the guts to post this debacle as a warning to other audio hobbyists, and especially R10 owners. 

 Agreed, looks like Alex is a true pro and he did a great resurrection-job (calling it a mere repair underestimates the work) here. He displays the level of competence that I strive for at my job as a software engineer


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## Lil' Knight

1500$ for the recable 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Really a good stuff


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## furball

I think I will stick with my stock headphone cables for the foreseeable future.


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## tjumper78

i'd love to hear what jenalabs has to say about this...


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## jinp6301

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *n_maher* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'd like to hear this story from the R10 owner's perspective. I'm rather shocked to hear that Jena offered nothing in the way of compensation after apparently nearly destroying a rather expensive OOP headphone._

 

same here, who's the owner anyways???


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## 2deadeyes

That's truly appalling on Jenalabs' end. Kudos to Alex for coming the rescue.


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## Uncle Erik

That's why I leave my headphones stock except for repairs.


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## smeggy

It's especially bad given how strongly they blow their own trumpet about their expert R10 recabling abilities.


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## Pars

That's a real cluster... appalling. $1500 for that?


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## vcoheda

wow!

 what a story. good job alex.


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## VeipaCray

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Uncle Erik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's why I leave my headphones stock except for repairs._

 

I couldn't agree more.


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## zippy2001

Alex,

 Great job on rescuing those R10s, it really looked like they were a mess.


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## penger

Wait... the pictures Alex took look like an R10 with the stock cable. If the recable was done by JenaLabs... shouldn't we be seeing the same copper cable in the pictures on the JenaLabs site? Now I'm a bit confused at what happened. Recabled and then decable and recabled back to original and then finally saved by Alex? o_O


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## Lil' Knight

Can't believe the JL can treat those R10s like that !
 Look like a newbie.


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## mrdeadfolx

Man, thats rough. On the bright side, apuresound has one more future customer in me.


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## [AK]Zip

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *penger* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wait... the pictures Alex took look like an R10 with the stock cable. If the recable was done by JenaLabs... shouldn't we be seeing the same copper cable in the pictures on the JenaLabs site? Now I'm a bit confused at what happened. Recabled and then decable and recabled back to original and then finally saved by Alex? o_O_

 

They were recabled by JenaLabs. The same headphone was sent back to them 2 times for recable because the customer said that there is something wrong with them when he got them back. I won't get into what all JenaLabs said to him as I believe he will be posting all of this himself here on Head-Fi. In the end he sent them back one last time to get the stock cable put back on and then they made their way to us here at APureSound where I personally worked on the headphones and discovered all of this.

 Thanks,
 Alex


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## warpdriver

That's utterly disgusting how they butchered the R10. You put your trust that they know what they are doing, and look what happens. 

 Especially laughable considering how they brag about their recabling of the R10's on the own web site.

 At least the R10's are back in working order.


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## swt61

I've met Alex on several occasions. I've had the pleasure of listening to most of his cables. I've always said and continue to say that they are the best sounding cables I've yet heard period.
 Alex is the most professional of builders, and his work is awe inspiring at times. Even his everyday stuff is flawless. I can't imagine a better choice of who to send these R-10s to for resurrection. 
 I do a lot of restoration work on Victorian homes, and detail is something I'm quite familiar with.
 Alex is the master at the details.

 It's my understanding that we may be hearing more about this debacle from the owner of the phones, and I think we all have a vested interest in knowing exactly what transpired here.


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## penger

Ahhh. Thanks for the clarification Alex. Nice work by the way.


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## LostOne.TR

Glad someone was able to fix his headphones. 

 At that price wow... was this owner the first to get an R10 modded by JenaLabs?


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## Morph201

**As the World Turns.. sheesh 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I have been in contact with the owner(s) of JenaLabs, and I would advise everyone to at least hear BOTH sides of the story and not run to the assumption that JenaLabs is at total fault. I sympathize with the R10 owner if everything he said is completely accurate, but I also find it VERY hard to believe that a reputable company such as JenaLabs would conduct themselves in a less than professional mannner. JenaLabs deals with equipment worth a lot more than R10s, do you honestly think they would risk their name for a pair of headphones??

 If what JenaLabs has told me is true it's truly SICKENING that someone would try to damage their reputation in such a manner!!


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## swt61

Hmmm, And what reply would one expect from a manufacturer that completely botched a pair of very expensive headphones "yeah that's right, we totally screwed those up", doubtful. If indeed the story is true, and by virtue of who restored the R-10s and has discussed the job done to them, I have every reason to believe it is, I seriously doubt that JenaLabs would own up to it, based on what has been said about their actions in this case so far.

 The truth is we may never know the full truth, but I'd be very interested in hearing what the owner of these headphones has to say.

 The pictures speak volumes.


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## Morph201

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *swt61* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The truth is we may never know the full truth, but I'd be very interested in hearing what the owner of these headphones has to say.
_

 

Well, whichever side you "decide" to take, what you said earlier speaks volumes.. I'm sure JL wouldn't be in business if this was common procedure with them... but hey, it's not my battle to fight, the only thing I said was it would be prudent to hear both sides before jumping to immediate conclusions like a bunch of wild monkeys.. 

 I do believe we are all presume innocent until proven guilty, no?


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## blubliss

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *swt61* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The pictures speak volumes._

 

That's what i was gonna say.

 Those pics are devastating. My recabled R10s are quivering at the sight.


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## Uncle Erik

Reminds me of some high-end watches I've seen butchered by "experts"; this is not unique to headphones. A lot of hacks count on owners not being able to judge the quality of work or inspecting it afterwards.


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## Ragonix

I wonder how much Alex charged the guy for fixing up the R10 in addition to the rewire job.


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## blubliss

Probably not much. His rates are very reasonable.


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## swt61

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I do believe we are all presume innocent until proven guilty, no?_

 

Yeah in first grade. Do you still believe OJ didn't do it?


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## warpdriver

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Uncle Erik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Reminds me of some high-end watches I've seen butchered by "experts"; this is not unique to headphones. A lot of hacks count on owners not being able to judge the quality of work or inspecting it afterwards._

 

Yeah no kidding. These repair experts are quick to point out flaws that need fixing but then when they botch it up, all of the sudden they turn deaf/blind and say that's the way it was or is supposed to be.

 Like how the dealer put a scratch in the bezel of my brand new watch, and told me it was there to begin with.

 Or the body shop who couldn't see the obvious a very mismatch in a repainted color.

 The visual evidence here is very damning....unless the owner had it recabled before JL, I really can't see how JL would ever admit to a botch job like that.


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## furball

So what's Jenalab's response to all this? I am just curious to hear their side of the story.


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## swt61

I think we should all be patient and wait for the owner of the headphones to tell his side of the story. It's not really prudent to steal his thunder for one, and it's just a guessing game until we know more facts anyway.


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## sacd lover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_**As the World Turns.. sheesh 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I have been in contact with the owner(s) of JenaLabs, and I would advise everyone to at least hear BOTH sides of the story and not run to the assumption that JenaLabs is at total fault. I sympathize with the R10 owner if everything he said is completely accurate, but I also find it VERY hard to believe that a reputable company such as JenaLabs would conduct themselves in a less than professional mannner. JenaLabs deals with equipment worth a lot more than R10s, do you honestly think they would risk their name for a pair of headphones??

 If what JenaLabs has told me is true it's truly SICKENING that someone would try to damage their reputation in such a manner!!_

 


 Why would you contact Jena Labs? You appear to have nothing to do with either party.


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## Morph201

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sacd lover* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why would you contact Jena Labs? You appear to have nothing to do with either party. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Why not? I buy their products, besides that was my perogative, as opposed to jumpin to conclusions based on one side of the story.


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## JadeEast

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why not? I buy their products, besides that was my perogative, as opposed to jumpin to conclusions based on one side of the story._

 

So what's the other side.


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## swt61

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why not? I buy their products, besides that was my perogative, as opposed to jumpin to conclusions based on one side of the story._

 

Oh, so you've talked to the owner of the headphones and gotten his side too?


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## subtle

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why not? I buy their products, besides that was my perogative, as opposed to jumpin to conclusions based on one side of the story._

 

The one I mainly see jumping to conclusions here is you, so eager to try and play devil's advocate and be that "cool one" that has to do the opposite of everyone else to stand out from the crowd. Your comments essentially imply that Alex, an individual that has earned his excellent reputation around here for being polite, knowledgeable, and providing an extremely high level of quality in his work, is lying about all of this.

 What exactly does he stand to gain from doing that? Please explain.


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## mrarroyo

Hey guys lets back off a bit. I own three of Alex re-cable jobs and I am very happy with the work and sound and I am considering sending a 4th headphone to get re-cabled. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 However, people can have their opinion and should be able to express it without being pushed into a corner. All Morph201 said was that there are two sides to an story, which is true of any story. So please lets not put words into someones mouth nor attack if you do not agree.

 Just my thoughts.


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## sacd lover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why not? I buy their products, besides that was my perogative, as opposed to jumpin to conclusions based on one side of the story._

 

Buying their products does not make this situation "your business". Furthermore, unless you have spoken with the owner of the headphones as well it appears YOU are the one jumping to conclusions based on one side of the story.


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## powertoold

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *subtle* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The one I mainly see jumping to conclusions here is you, so eager to try and play devil's advocate and be that "cool one" that has to do the opposite of everyone else to stand out from the crowd. Your comments essentially imply that Alex, an individual that has earned his excellent reputation around here for being polite, knowledgeable, and providing an extremely high level of quality in his work, is lying about all of this.

 What exactly does he stand to gain from doing that? Please explain._

 

Well, Alex heard the story from the customer. It is possible that the customer is biased, so it'd be nice to hear JL's story.


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## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *subtle* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_"....Your comments essentially imply that Alex, an individual that has earned his excellent reputation around here for being polite, knowledgeable, and providing an extremely high level of quality in his work, is lying about all of this.

 What exactly does he stand to gain from doing that? Please explain...."_

 

He will gain nothing, but you are going a little too far as well, as Alex has never said that he had contacted JL to find out what was the real truth, or their side of the story, at least he had not said so, so probably he has only the customer side of the story, (unless he had called JL) but now knowing that there is another side of the story...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 BTW I do not care who is right or wrong, nor who in guilty or innocent, and I have nothing against one or the other, to me both are very nice dealers till now, but I was just trying to put things in perspective according to the facts we have seen here till now...


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## Ragonix

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sacd lover* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why would you contact Jena Labs? You appear to have nothing to do with either party. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Because he wants to see the fireworks. Sit back and get some popcorn.


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## subtle

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mrarroyo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_However, people can have their opinion and should be able to express it without being pushed into a corner. All Morph201 said was that there are two sides to an story, which is true of any story. So please lets not put words into someones mouth nor attack if you do not agree._

 

People are certainly entitled to their opinion, however when they present it with a complete lack of tact they should expect replies such as these.

 I'm not sure how anyone is supposed to take him seriously after labeling everyone in the thread "a bunch of wild monkeys"?


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## jinp6301

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_**As the World Turns.. sheesh 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I have been in contact with the owner(s) of JenaLabs, and I would advise everyone to at least hear BOTH sides of the story and not run to the assumption that JenaLabs is at total fault. I sympathize with the R10 owner if everything he said is completely accurate, but I also find it VERY hard to believe that a reputable company such as JenaLabs would conduct themselves in a less than professional mannner. JenaLabs deals with equipment worth a lot more than R10s, do you honestly think they would risk their name for a pair of headphones??

 If what JenaLabs has told me is true it's truly SICKENING that someone would try to damage their reputation in such a manner!!_

 

so what did jena labs say?


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## swt61

I haven't come to any conclusion yet, but it's pretty clear the phones were mangled by someone. Whether that was JenaLabs, the owner of the phones himself or some other party we're not aware of yet we just don't know for sure.

 I do know Alex's character pretty well though, and I'm pretty sure that he believes the owner, or I doubt he'd post about it. 

 So at this juncture I'm leaning toward believing that JenaLabs is at fault. That doesn't make it true, and there may well be something I'm not aware of. But until JenaLabs supplies us with some solid information to make us doubt this, I'll continue to give credit to Alex's story.

 We all have biases, and it's silly to pretend we can be completely unbiased after hearing a side to a story like this. Admitting that you jumped the gun after being proven wrong is also something I have no problem doing. So if indeed JenaLabs has a credible side to this story that proves my bias wrong I'm more than willing to apologize for my haste.

 So...Let's here from you JenaLabs & R-10 owner.


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## Morph201

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mrarroyo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey guys lets back off a bit. I own three of Alex re-cable jobs and I am very happy with the work and sound and I am considering sending a 4th headphone to get re-cabled. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 However, people can have their opinion and should be able to express it without being pushed into a corner. All Morph201 said was that there are two sides to an story, which is true of any story. So please lets not put words into someones mouth nor attack if you do not agree.

 Just my thoughts._

 

Wow! Someone with intelligence.... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Thanks!


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## Morph201

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sacd lover* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Buying their products does not make this situation "your business". Furthermore, unless you have spoken with the owner of the headphones as well it appears YOU are the one jumping to conclusions based on one side of the story._

 

It is my business, that's all YOU need to know..


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## aaron313

All I can say is that I am truly honored to have my headphones recabled by Alex.


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## swt61

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It is my business, that's all YOU need to know.. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Sorry, you don't get to play all CIA secret spy guy, and not give out info you may or may not have, and then tell us we're being hasty in our opinions. It doesn't work that way. Speaks to credibility my friend.


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## LostOne.TR

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *subtle* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_People are certainly entitled to their opinion, however when they present it with a complete lack of tact they should expect replies such as these.

 I'm not sure how anyone is supposed to take him seriously after labeling everyone in the thread "a bunch of wild monkeys"?_

 

It's not like the lack of tack was *subtle*. I completely agree.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wow! Someone with intelligence.... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Thanks!_

 

I also believe that there's two sides to the story.


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## penger

I just want to hear both sides.


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## Morph201

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *swt61* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sorry, you don't get to play all CIA secret spy guy, and not give out info you may or may not have, and then tell us we're being hasty in our opinions. It doesn't work that way. Speaks to credibility my friend._

 

Ok, I have an email from Michael and Jennifer stating, in full, the events as they saw it. I would copy & paste it into this thread, but I feel I should not overstep Michael and Jennifer... I believe they will post their response soon enough. I'm not taking sides in this, just trying to remain objective and withhold any judgement until both sides have spoken. The attack on their credibility was launched, so they should be allowed to defend it, that's all.


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## jrosenth

Morph201, who do you work for?

 The only reason I ask is that I'd really like to factor in that affiliation for upcoming purchases.


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## swt61

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ok, I have an email from Michael and Jennifer stating, in full, the events as they saw it. I would copy & paste it into this thread, but I feel I should not overstep Michael and Jennifer... I believe they will post their response soon enough. I'm not taking sides in this, just trying to remain objective and withhold any judgement until both sides have spoken. The attack on their credibility was launched, so they should be allowed to defend it, that's all._

 

Fair enough, I too believe they should probably be the ones to tell their side, and I look forward to reading it.


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## Duggeh

What is the hesitancy on the part of the response if one has already been given to personal inquiries via email? From the information currently presented, its a pretty damning case of incompetent malpractice and denial of responsibility.

 I would though, like to hear comment from the owner of the set of R10 in question and from Jenalabs, or the person at Jenalabs who carried out the procedure.


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## Boilingfrog

Ok here we go... I am the owner of the R10s in question. I have been lurking on these boards for years while I have quietly built my stash. I currently own a Woo5 LE fully upgraded that was designed and built by Jack to be used exclusively with my R10s. I sold my original Woo5 to Raylinds. I also own an SDS-XLR as well as am about to take possession(after CanJam) of Mikhails crowning acheivement: an ES2 mercury rectified 24 tubed power supply. I am very close with Mikhail and have worked with Jack for quite some time. Both can vouch for my character and consistency.
 I was hoping my first post on headfi would be a bit more positive but I guess we need to get this out of the way. I originally purchased my R10s from Hart at Audio Advancement(another character reference). Mikhail susequently modified one pair to balanced to be used with my SDS-XLR. When I moved to the Woo5 I wanted to return them to single ended. Now as much as I love Mikhail I didn't want my R10s languishing in his factory for months so I opted to send them to Jenalabs after reading about Jennifers supposed expertise with R10s on headfi. I spoke with her first and she sounded convincing.
 Jennifer recabled these phones first with 18g/22g wire. I complained that they were veiled, muffled, without extension and overly resonant. She responded that I was crazy and that these were in fact the best pair of R10s that she and Ken had ever listened to. Given her reputation in the industry I was beginning to doubt my ears. Nonetheless I returned them for recabling with only 22g wire hoping this would tame some of the boominess. I sent my second pair along for comparison. Again I heard the same thing. Jennifer insisted my hearing was off and that the recabled phones sounded so much better than the stock cabling. This time there was also a channel imbalance L<R. I told Jennifer to just replace the stock cable and I would figure it out some how not really knowing what to do at this point. 
 Jennifer ended up charging me a ridiculous $1000 for all the cable switching and never said a word. 
 Shortly after I learned of Alex and his experience with R10s. In talking to him I could immediately tell he had a completely different understanding and experience with the R10s. I sent him the pair in question to examine. Alex called me shortly after opening them up to give me a detailed description of what had went horribly wrong at Jenalabs. I will not be redundant here please refer to Alex's site for details. 
 Now when Mikhail recabled these phones he cut the external cable and soldered on the new one. Jennifer was quick to point out this "shoddy" work and showcase it on her website. Yet as a result of only cutting the cable the drivers were never removed and hence were not damaged during this modification. Although it was not the greatest.
 The issues at hand relate more to Jennifers response and actions once I confronted her with her incompetence. When I called her and told her what Alex had found she was stunned silent. She then said "What do you want?" I told her I only wanted my R10s fixed. When I asked how the voice coil tore she said it was very fragile and it occurred on the second cable change. She states she had glued it back. I told her it wasn't done properly and hence the problems with the sound. She was silent again.
 She said she would try and locate a new pair of replacement drivers and call me back. Days went by without a response. When I finally emailed her I was really starting to get pissed off. I told her that I wanted my $1000 refunded less the cost of the AC outlets and CD cleaner I had purchased. Still no response. When I called her again she was very short with me and stated she would "reply by Registered letter" and hung up on me. When I called back she hung up on me again. She sent me an email that stated not to email her anymore and I would be receiving a registered letter shortly.
 I had had enough. I emailed her telling her not only did I want my money refunded I also wanted her to pay for the repair of the phones. Still no reply. Eventually i received a 5 page document email outlining the companies refund policy among other things. Jennifer stated she refused to refund any money. Not only that she also stated that the entire job should have cost closer to $4000 but she would call it even at $1000 and we would both walk away. She also denied ever having admitted to me in our conversation that she was responsible for damaging the headphones. Her long discourse was her apparent attempt at damage control.
 I must have emailed Jennifer 4-5 times. I told her that the right thing to do would be to just take responsibility and make it right with the customer. I was very clear that if this was aired on the internet the damage to her reputation and future business would be far greater then any refund. I practically begged her to do the right thing to make this go away. I still got no response. So here we are. To bad because I would rather be listening to music. 
 Jenalabs had no right putting themselves out there as qualified to repair R10s. My real issue comes with the ridiculous lies, deceit and avoidance of both the customer and taking responsibilitythat came after. Jennifer is anything but stupid. Yet I am at a loss as to why she decided to play this one this way. I hope this clears things up a little. I'm sure this won't be the last of this thread.


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## Uncle Erik

Very interesting story - sorry you haven't had a better introduction to Head-Fi. But welcome, and it is always good to gain another experienced member.


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## tkam

Sounds like jena labs has some explaining to do if you ask me. Even if their refund policy doesn't cover them breaking something they still shouldn't have been so rude to the owner. Remind me to never ever buy anything jena labs sells.


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## blubliss

It would have been so much easier for JenaLabs, to just say, "I'm sorry", wouldn't it?


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## Fungi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *blubliss* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It would have been so much easier for JenaLabs, to just say, "I'm sorry", wouldn't it?_

 

I don't know what went on in their heads, but basically they've lost any credibility they may have had for $1000. Good deal, huh?

 But it still sucks for Boilingfrog. I think a full refund is the very least one could do to compensate for this time, effort, stress, etc. At least now we know Jena wire doesn't sound good (I think the man with the SDS-XLR wouldn't have flawed ears, no matter how much someone else says otherwise).


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## barqy

wow appreciate your side of the story boilingfrog.


 several MOT have mentioned that the customer service at jenawires isn't what you'd expect for a 'reputable' company :\


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## vulc4n

wow.

 I just happened to run into this thread. For reference, I've never heard of JenaLabs before now, but it seems to me that they don't deserve anyone's business.


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## skyline889

Is anyone else curious why Ken didn't hear these problems when he posted his review of them in his forum? I'm not being accusatory against anyone but a piece of the puzzle is obviously missing here if they went from sounding amazing (As described in his review) to sounding lifeless (As described by the owner), especially since the owner heard the flaws before Jena ruined the voice coils. Sounds to me like, there was some bad soldering work done before it was even sent back the second time.

 @ Barqy; No, their customer service/public relations aren't good at all for many DIYers anymore. A year ago they used to be great to work with, I don't know what happened to them. Either way, I don't think Jena will be getting my business anymore. Their wire is very good indeed but it's not worth it to deal with a company like this.


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## powertoold

I can't believe that story is true. Seriously, that is the most immature business conduct I have heard of in a while. JenaLabs should be taking pride in their R10 recable customers. I doubt there are many of them who buy the recable. 

 It's just sad that JenaLabs didn't say anything about messing up the drivers and just wrote it off as "your hearing is bad, this is the best headphone ever", expecting the customer to be idiotic enough to believe them.

 Unbelievable. I want to hear what JenaLabs has to say about this.


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## mulveling

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *skyline889* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is anyone else curious why Ken didn't hear these problems when he posted his review of them in his forum? I'm not being accusatory against anyone but a piece of the puzzle is obviously missing here if they went from sounding amazing (As described in his review) to sounding lifeless (As described by the owner)._

 

Let's see...a long-term owner of multiple R10's on top-notch gear...vs a guy's 1-day first impressions...I know whose ears _I'd_ trust. The driver damage could certainly explain the "like a totally different headphone all together" bit of the review on the re-cabled R10. I guarantee that if your R10 sounds like a completely different headphone vs a stock R10, it is in NO WAY a good thing.


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## xand1x

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *powertoold* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I can't believe that story is true. Seriously, that is the most immature business conduct I have heard of in a while. JenaLabs should be taking pride in their R10 recable customers. I doubt there are many of them who buy the recable. 

 It's just sad that JenaLabs didn't say anything about messing up the drivers and just wrote it off as "your hearing is bad, this is the best headphone ever", expecting the customer to be idiotic enough to believe them.

 Unbelievable. I want to hear what JenaLabs has to say about this._

 

If we do end up getting something out of Jena Labs hopefully it's not a .JPG of their return policy 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




..but yeah based on this thread i'll never buy anything Jena or recommend it..they say what goes around comes around..


----------



## drlee27

It is interesting that so many parties are involved in this incident; I wonder what Ken from ALO has to say about his review of the recabled R10. Even Mikhail, a reputable amp builder, was criticized for his recabling skills.Wow!


----------



## kool bubba ice

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Boilingfrog* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ok here we go... I am the owner of the R10s in question. I have been lurking on these boards for years while I have quietly built my stash. I currently own a Woo5 LE fully upgraded that was designed and built by Jack to be used exclusively with my R10s. I sold my original Woo5 to Raylinds. I also own an SDS-XLR as well as am about to take possession(after CanJam) of Mikhails crowning acheivement: an ES2 mercury rectified 24 tubed power supply. I am very close with Mikhail and have worked with Jack for quite some time. Both can vouch for my character and consistency.
 I was hoping my first post on headfi would be a bit more positive but I guess we need to get this out of the way. I originally purchased my R10s from Hart at Audio Advancement(another character reference). Mikhail susequently modified one pair to balanced to be used with my SDS-XLR. When I moved to the Woo5 I wanted to return them to single ended. Now as much as I love Mikhail I didn't want my R10s languishing in his factory for months so I opted to send them to Jenalabs after reading about Jennifers supposed expertise with R10s on headfi. I spoke with her first and she sounded convincing.
 Jennifer recabled these phones first with 18g/22g wire. I complained that they were veiled, muffled, without extension and overly resonant. She responded that I was crazy and that these were in fact the best pair of R10s that she and Ken had ever listened to. Given her reputation in the industry I was beginning to doubt my ears. Nonetheless I returned them for recabling with only 22g wire hoping this would tame some of the boominess. I sent my second pair along for comparison. Again I heard the same thing. Jennifer insisted my hearing was off and that the recabled phones sounded so much better than the stock cabling. This time there was also a channel imbalance L<R. I told Jennifer to just replace the stock cable and I would figure it out some how not really knowing what to do at this point. 
 Jennifer ended up charging me a ridiculous $1000 for all the cable switching and never said a word. 
 Shortly after I learned of Alex and his experience with R10s. In talking to him I could immediately tell he had a completely different understanding and experience with the R10s. I sent him the pair in question to examine. Alex called me shortly after opening them up to give me a detailed description of what had went horribly wrong at Jenalabs. I will not be redundant here please refer to Alex's site for details. 
 Now when Mikhail recabled these phones he cut the external cable and soldered on the new one. Jennifer was quick to point out this "shoddy" work and showcase it on her website. Yet as a result of only cutting the cable the drivers were never removed and hence were not damaged during this modification. Although it was not the greatest.
 The issues at hand relate more to Jennifers response and actions once I confronted her with her incompetence. When I called her and told her what Alex had found she was stunned silent. She then said "What do you want?" I told her I only wanted my R10s fixed. When I asked how the voice coil tore she said it was very fragile and it occurred on the second cable change. She states she had glued it back. I told her it wasn't done properly and hence the problems with the sound. She was silent again.
 She said she would try and locate a new pair of replacement drivers and call me back. Days went by without a response. When I finally emailed her I was really starting to get pissed off. I told her that I wanted my $1000 refunded less the cost of the AC outlets and CD cleaner I had purchased. * Still no response. When I called her again she was very short with me and stated she would "reply by Registered letter" and hung up on me. When I called back she hung up on me again. She sent me an email that stated not to email her anymore and I would be re*ceiving a registered letter shortly.
 I had had enough. I emailed her telling her not only did I want my money refunded I also wanted her to pay for the repair of the phones. Still no reply. Eventually i received a 5 page document email outlining the companies refund policy among other things. Jennifer stated she refused to refund any money. Not only that she also stated that the entire job should have cost closer to $4000 but she would call it even at $1000 and we would both walk away. She also denied ever having admitted to me in our conversation that she was responsible for damaging the headphones. Her long discourse was her apparent attempt at damage control.
 I must have emailed Jennifer 4-5 times. I told her that the right thing to do would be to just take responsibility and make it right with the customer. I was very clear that if this was aired on the internet the damage to her reputation and future business would be far greater then any refund. I practically begged her to do the right thing to make this go away. I still got no response. So here we are. To bad because I would rather be listening to music. 
 Jenalabs had no right putting themselves out there as qualified to repair R10s. My real issue comes with the ridiculous lies, deceit and avoidance of both the customer and taking responsibilitythat came after. Jennifer is anything but stupid. Yet I am at a loss as to why she decided to play this one this way. I hope this clears things up a little. I'm sure this won't be the last of this thread._

 

This really makes me angry. I wouldn't give that &&&& ice water in hell..


----------



## drlee27

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ok, I have an email from Michael and Jennifer stating, in full, the events as they saw it. I would copy & paste it into this thread, but I feel I should not overstep Michael and Jennifer... I believe they will post their response soon enough. I'm not taking sides in this, just trying to remain objective and withhold any judgement until both sides have spoken. The attack on their credibility was launched, so they should be allowed to defend it, that's all._

 

I would like to read their email if jena labs fails to respond in this thread.


----------



## riceboy

I just wanted to say I feel for you Boilingfrog. No one should have to go through that much unneeded stress and bad treatment. Alex has earned another customer in my book and JenaLabs lost a customer in me.


----------



## smeggy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *drlee27* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It is interesting that so many parties are involved in this incident; I wonder what Ken from ALO has to say about his review of the recabled R10. Even Mikhail, a reputable amp builder, was criticized for his recabling skills.Wow!_

 

I find it quite galling that they are happy to sound smug and criticize one 'modder' on their site, knowing full well that they screwed up and made a mess of the R10 shown. Broke a voice coil, wired them incorrectly, very poor workmanship on dismantle/assembly and still insisted it was fine. Despite all this they still have it on their site like it's some kind of glowing endorsement. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Oh the bitter irony!

 I'm just glad the phones were salvageable as drivers for these are somewhat rare these days.


----------



## Ragonix

How do we know that Ken reviewed the JL R10 based on Frog's botched R10? Maybe it was a different one.


----------



## drlee27

Headphones are our hobby. If I want my headphones taken apart I would want someone like Alex to do the job, not someone from a big company like Jena Labs who just wants my money. Thanks to boilingfrog for sharing his story.


----------



## aaron313

Sue the b***h!


----------



## WittyzTH

wow! that was ridiculously expensive!! charging Boilingfrog $1000 for what they did a mistake. 

 sad to hear this kind of story esp. it happened with the king like R10s.


----------



## Voltron

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Ragonix* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How do we know that Ken reviewed the JL R10 based on Frog's botched R10? Maybe it was a different one._

 

This is a good point, but it should be made very clear that Ken did not do the botched work and only heard the R10s at the JenaLabs office for an audition. Mikhail also was asked to do something a lot less involved and simply snipped and recabled from a pigtail of the original cable -- some might question the "cold solder joint" or whatever, but Mikhail did no harm. Hanging either of them out to dry is misplaced because they had nothing to do with the damage. 

 JenaLabs' own web page dedicated to congratulating itself on this effort shows that they were the first to remove the drivers:

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JenaLabs* 
_BELOW:
 Here we see a view of some wires removed from yet another set of Sony R10s. The owner had previously sent them to an unknown 'modifier' for a wire change. Later, the headphones were sent to us for replacement of that wire with our Ultra-Wire. What you see is the ear-cup end of the wire harness, removed intact and in-total, and exactly as found, from the disassembled ear-cup.

 Please note that the person who did the wire exchange previously failed to remove all the original Sony wire. *The modifier simply left the ear-cups and their stock internal wire intact, cut off the original wire from the cups as a pigtail of about an inch, and then spliced in the 'new' wire.* The joints were soldered and insulated, and then simply shoved backwards into the ear-cup to hide the indiscretion. 

*It was abundantly clear that the headphone cups had never had the transducers removed.
*

 Disassembling the R10 ear-cup is a complicated and sensitive procedure requiring knowledge, skill, and dexterity. Reassembly is also difficult, and requires some special tools and several different adhesives to do the job correctly. We can see why someone would be afraid of, or incapable of, _properly_ upgrading the original wire.

*As you can see from the other photos, we DO totally disassemble the entire ear-cup, including removal of the transducer.* This allows us to properly terminate the JENA Labs Ultra-Wire directly to the transducer, leaving none of the sound-squashing original wire in the signal path._

 

You will find these quoted passages on the JenaLabs site and the pics are probably from the FIRST recabling effort if Jennifer is to be believed that she ripped the voice coil on the second one and as BF said he asked for all 22g wire the second time around, which is different from the description and pictures. It is also likely that if Ken heard BF's pair of R10s it was this version, which was less screwed up and damaged than the second recable version.

 This whole mess just goes to show that a company that steps up and makes things right even if it has to admit it screwed up privately is a lot better off than one who follows the path that led to this thread. JenaLabs may have blundered from a technical perspective, but whatever the case it clearly made matters far worse for itself by the reaction to its customer and the refusal to correct its mistakes or just refund the costs.


 Well, BoilingFrog, hard to offer you the traditional greeting on your first post given that you have lurked for 3 years and have already suffered massive wallet shock, but welcome anyway. Sorry for the hassles you have also suffered but keep up he good picks on gear. Please explain how/why you prefer your Woo5 to the SDS-XLR -- I loved the stock original Woo5 and own an SDS-XLR -- so I am curious about that. Plus, even though I am hoping that your comments about your ES2 indicate that it will be at CanJam next week, you MUST PROMISE to post pics of it when you take possession. That sounds very exciting.

 Cheers!


----------



## saint.panda

andrew_wot, could you please edit boilingfrog's reply at post#62 to the first post? Otherwise it'll get lost if the thread continues to grow.


----------



## gotchaforce

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *skyline889* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is anyone else curious why Ken didn't hear these problems when he posted his review of them in his forum? I'm not being accusatory against anyone but a piece of the puzzle is obviously missing here if they went from sounding amazing (As described in his review) to sounding lifeless (As described by the owner), especially since the owner heard the flaws before Jena ruined the voice coils. Sounds to me like, there was some bad soldering work done before it was even sent back the second time.

 @ Barqy; No, their customer service/public relations aren't good at all for many DIYers anymore. A year ago they used to be great to work with, I don't know what happened to them. Either way, I don't think Jena will be getting my business anymore. Their wire is very good indeed but it's not worth it to deal with a company like this._

 

If ken reviewed the same ones that are talked about in the OP.... then its all about relationship of ALO and jena (hint ALO gets the cryod wires from jena). you do the math.


----------



## Elephas

My sympathies to BoilingFrog.

 Recabling most headphones such as the DT880 or AD2000 doesn't seem very difficult, but the R10 seems to be much more complicated.

 I ordered a balanced V3 cable from APureSound, intending to have a local audio shop install it on an R10. This way, I could avoid shipping the headphones. The local shop has recabled several headphones for me in the past, but they had no experience with the R10 and didn't want to risk it. They installed the V3 cable on an L3000 instead. I appreciated their honesty and willingness to admit inexperience with the R10 instead of blustering and feeding me a bunch of BS.

 As an owner of two R10's and at least one in need of a balanced recable, I know I'm sending it to APureSound. I admit I was considering sending them to other companies, including JenaLabs, but not anymore.


----------



## Morph201

Quote:


 On our website is a page describing our services to rewire Sony R10 
 headphones with a special cable system of our design and manufacture. 
 The cost of materials and labor to perform this modification is 
 $1,500.00 US Dollars, plus actual shipping costs.

 After initial phone calls, S.W. sent a set of R10 headphones to JENA 
 Technologies LLC. Upon arrival it was discovered that the specific set 
 of headphones had been previously modified by installation of a 
 different wire harness by another party, and that the modification was 
 performed by pulling out the factory wires from the sealed ear speaker 
 enclosure, cut off, soldered to the new wire, and then pushed back into 
 the enclosure and fastened in place. S.W. deliberately did not inform us 
 of the previous modification prior to our being engaged to install the 
 JENA Labs wire system. After the headphones arrived at our location S.W. 
 specifically asked repeatedly, about the details of sonic qualities we 
 heard in them if we had heard any break-up or intermittent sound from 
 the headphones, which in our limited listening tests at moderate volume 
 levels, we did not hear. To me it was MOST unusual that SW
 would SO worried about our hearing some sort of sonic defect.
 Before our disassembly, only a very brief listening test of a few 
 minuted duration was performed, and at moderate volume levels, and no 
 sonic defects were noted. Upon disassembly, we also noted that on one of 
 the drive units one of the very fine wire strands, a voice coil wire 
 extending from the interior of the drive unit to the solder pad where 
 connections are made, was formed into a slightly protruded loop and had 
 been kinked. It should be noted that the other drive unit, nor any other 
 drive units from other examples of the same make and model of headphone 
 that we have seen, or seen photos of, exhibited such a protrusion. This 
 extending loop would in our opinion represent a fault in the original 
 construction. An attempt was made to stabilize this fragile protrusion 
 of very fine wire by locating it adjacent to the physical boundary of 
 the ear speaker frame, and holding it in place with adhesive. This was a 
 trivial operation and not mentioned in any communications.

 We also found that in both ear can enclosures, the soft sound absorbing 
 filler material had been displaced around inside the enclosure by the 
 pushing-in of the stiff wires in the earlier modificaion, and that the 
 material had been bunched up into approximately half the volume of the 
 enclosed space, rather than equally dispersed. The absorbent material 
 was re-distributed within the enclosure to a more uniform distribution 
 as part of the following re-assembly. Assembly proceeded and listening 
 test were performed, and performance found to be outstanding.


 In addition to our own sonic assessment, a leading industry 
 professional, Ken Ball, owner of Audio Line Out also auditioned the 
 headphones and found them to be outstanding, so much so that he created 
 a web page to share his experience. Also present at the same listening 
 session was another pair of R10 headphones with a similar cable 
 installed by JENA Labs, except terminated with independent left and 
 right XLR connectors rather than a single stereo 1/4 inch connector as 
 fitted to S.W.s headphones. Direct comparison of the XLR fitted 
 headphones and the others was made possible with the use of an adapter 
 with 2 mating XLR connectors feeding a stereo 1/4 inch connector. 
 Several sources were listened to by both Ken Ball and Jennifer Crock, 
 including iPod sourced music through several different headphone 
 amplifiers, and by direct feed from a DSD recorder playing back assorted 
 live location symphonic recordings. Also present was stock pair of 
 SonyR10s that you had send along for 'comparison'. The stock R10s 
 exhibited weak bass and slight veil in the midrange and highs. This 
 veiling was quite audible when listening to a specific passage of 
 orchestral music in which a musician turns a page o sheet music, 
 dragging a finger along the upper edge of the paper making a bit of a 
 quiet but audible 'shweep' sound as the paper is dragged along and 
 folded over, all the while the other musicians are playing. With the 
 stock R10s, this faint anomaly was barely heard as an indistinct blurr. 
 With either of the re-cabled R10s, the sound was very clear and easily 
 recognized as the turning of a page of the sheet music. The XLR fitted 
 headphones, with the additional adapter in the signal path revealed the 
 sonic detail, but not quite as distinctly as your re-cabled pair. As 
 mentioned, Ken thought enough of the listening experience that he even 
 created a web page to celebrate the event.


http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f70/fu...y-r10s-274275/


 At this point our contract was complete and the headphones were packaged 
 and returned along with your S.W.s R10 headphones that were sent 'for 
 comparison', a complimentary kit of Esoteric 3D-X of $80.00 value, and 2 
 each of our Immersion Cryo treated Hubbell A-C power outlets at $60.00 
 total value.


 At this point in time we had completed the contract, installing the new 
 wiring, providing the additional parts you ordered, and had offered a 
 complimentary gift.

 Upon receiving the package S.W. phoned and indicated that he could not 
 find the A-C power outlets and immediately accused us of lying about 
 their inclusion in the shipment. He also indicated that the modified 
 headphones 'sounded like ****'. Additionally he refused to pay for the 
 goods and services that had been completed and delivered. It should be 
 noted that the headphones that he assessed as "sounding like ****" were 
 found to be vastly superior in every respect to stock harness equipped 
 Sony R10 and other brand and models a by leading industry professional 
 outside our organization. It was at this time we offered to remove the 
 standard JENA LABS wiring harness and replace it with a lighter gauge 
 harness, also of our manufacture, that would have less bass energy. 
 Eventually S.W. returned the headphones to us for this service. We found 
 at the time of the headphones return that there was some occasional 
 intermittent sound from the ear speaker that held the drive-unit on 
 which the defect stabilization had been performed. This performance 
 fault was CLEARLY not present at the time the headphones were shipped, 
 and we can only conclude that something had happened to them while back 
 in his possession that would cause the fault of occasional sound 
 interruption. Upon disassembly we found the kinked fragile wire that we 
 had discovered the first time the headphones were worked on, to have 
 developed an intermittent open circuit at the point of the pre-existing 
 kink. This defect was easily repaired by soldering a fine copper wire of 
 similar size between the intact end of the voice coil wire, and the 
 solder tab. The repair wire was stabilized by adhering it to the body of 
 the drive unit. The lighter gauge wire harness was installed, the phones 
 reassembled, and extensively listened to for a period of approximately 5 
 hours by 3 different people, with no performance faults noted. An 
 additional 2 duplex outlets were packaged with the headphones and 
 shipped to S.W..

 Upon arrival at S.W.s, he found the 2 duplex outlets, but still claimed 
 that the headphones "sound like ****"..again, your exact words. And 
 again he refused to pay for any services and parts delivered. At this 
 time we offer to help by reinstalling the original SONY wiring harness.

 This time S.W. , or someone under his direction, removed the entirety of 
 the headphone band from the ear speaker enclosures and shipped them to 
 us for installation of the stock harness. Clearly the headphones had 
 been at least partially disassembled by persons unknown and of unknown 
 skill. The arrival of the phones in this condition prevented us from 
 making a reasonable sonic evaluation of them both before and after 
 installation of the stock Sony wire. In a phone call to us S.W. 
 described the reason for removal of the headband as to save shipping 
 weight. We suspect the real reason for breaking down the headphones was 
 to reduce the utility of them to near zero. By this time paid S.W. had 
 paid nothing for the first $1,500.00 rewire job, nothing for the first 2 
 duplexes he claimed not be able to find, nothing for the second 
 $1,300.00 rewire job, nothing for the second set of 2 duplexes he 
 admited to finding, and nothing for the job of installing the stock Sony 
 harness, for which we would have charged $450.00 if someone had asked us 
 to reinstall a stock harness back into a set of R10s. Additionally he 
 had not paid for any of the shipping and insurance that we incurred in 
 the process. We concluded the real reason that he had the phones and 
 shipped to us incomplete was that he thought we would "file a lien on 
 them" for the full value of services performed and just keep them or 
 sell them to cover our expenses. By sending us incomplete headphones,of 
 highly diminished utility and value, we believe he thought we would be 
 more likely to return them to him.

 The stock wire harness was installed and the phones listened to and 
 tested briefly by holding the loose enclosures against the head with 
 both hands. No breakup or intermittent sound was noted in approximately 
 5 minutes of listening, but the sonic deficit of weak bass and slightly 
 smeared mid-range detail associated with the stock harness was there as 
 expected. As much as we were able to listen, the headphones sounded like 
 any other stock R10s and exhibited no breakup, distortion, or 
 intermittent sound. They were packed and returned to S.W..


 A few weeks later, in a phone conversation between S.W. and Jennifer 
 Crock, an agreed settlement of $1,000.00 was negotiated for all the 
 work, materials, products and shipmen/insurance costs, which was paid in 
 full.

 It is our position that S.W.s headphones had a defect in place in the 
 form of a malformed voice coil wire, either internally, and/or 
 additionally, externally, on one of the drive units that may have been 
 further deformed or damaged in some manner during the first modification 
 by another person/firm prior to our ever seen the headphones, or that 
 may have been exacerbated by that and/or some other reason, which may 
 include but not be limited to such reasons as playing at excessive sound 
 level or being exposed to DC current in the audio signal being fed to 
 the headphone . The pre-existing external physical defect and other 
 related voice coil defects not visible from outside the drive unit may 
 have led to intermittent operation of that ear speaker. It is possible 
 that S.W. was likely aware of and had experienced that defect while 
 listening. His specific questions as to our hearing of such an 
 intermittent sound upon the very first arrival of your headphones at our 
 shop are an indication of your prior knowledge of some sort pre-existing 
 damage or defect. In any event, the defect that we could see externally 
 on the drive unit was addressed and repaired in a manner as reasonable 
 as possible without fanfare or mention at our end. At every time the 
 headphones were returned to S.W., they were in perfect operating 
 condition and sounded fine, without break-up, distortion, or 
 intermittent operation.

 We are not in any way responsible for pre-existing damage, defect, or 
 incipient defect, whether repaired by us or not, nor for any subsequent 
 failure of any product as a result of such defect, use, misuse or neglect.


 About a month later S.W. apparently experienced an intermittent sound in 
 one of the speaker, but did NOT inform us of such finding until he had 
 engaged another party to disassemble and inspect the phones. That person 
 found the external voice coil wire defect repair job that we had 
 performed at no charge. S.W. phoned and confronted us with the 
 existence of the repair, and we freely admitted to performing it. We DID 
 NOT in anyway admit verbally or in any other manner to any liability for 
 the further repair of the defect, nor are we responsible for such 
 repair, even though you were trying very hard to get us to admit so. He 
 TRIED like a vicious District Attorney to bend words and shape questions 
 so that any answer would be an admission of his acusations. 

 The total value of goods, services, and shipping/insurance provided to 
 S.W. was

 $1,500.00 First JENA Labs harness
 $1,300.00 Second, smaller gauge wire, JENA Labs harness
 $ 450.00 stock Sony harness install
 $ 60.00 duplex outlet [ forgetting about the first set sent]
 _$ 226.00 shipping and insurance._
 $3,536.00 TOTAL

 We were willing to stand by the original settlement agreement $1,000.00 
 for which payment has been received, and to write off the remaining 
 balance.


 I hope this helps you to understand the situation we were placed in. It 
 is clearly a no-win deal for everyone involved. Had S.W. been honest 
 with us in the first place, and later on when he found an intermittent 
 sound from one channel, if he had called and talked with us about it, we 
 would have arranged to replace the defective drive unit at cost of 
 parts. Instead he said nothing to us, and engaged someone else. Then he 
 comes forth with the claims of our damaging the headphones and tries to 
 extort first $700.00 and then over $1,300 from us with the threat that 
 if we didn't pay, that he would "Ruin Our Reputation" Looks like he has 
 kept his word on that.

 Jennifer Crock
 JENA Technologies LLC 
 

Not that it's going to make a difference, because most of you have already decided to lynch JL.. I understand the possible frustration, but do you think a company that's been doing this for over 20 years would seriously botch a job like this??? Something is not adding up, and I'm shocked that no one else thinks this.


----------



## Morph201

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gotchaforce* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If ken reviewed the same ones that are talked about in the OP.... then its all about relationship of ALO and jena (hint ALO gets the cryod wires from jena). you do the math._

 

It's stupid remarks like that fueling the BS. And someone asked what does Apuresound have to gain? Hmmm additional business! How's that for accusatory. Both sides have not spoken and already we're ready to run down to JL with pitchforks and torches!


----------



## stevenkelby

Morph, did Jena give you permission to post that?


----------



## tk3

Nice train wreck. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Company says customer is the bad party and vice versa.
 I like how JL is willing to simply give out detailed information to an unrelated third party that is just asking about it.
 No matter who is lying about this or altering/withholding facts to make themselves look better, between that, there is obviously a pair of very expensive nearly destroyed headphones, that is undeniable.

 One thing that sticks out to me is:

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Boilingfrog* 
_When I called her and told her what Alex had found she was stunned silent. She then said "What do you want?" I told her I only wanted my R10s fixed. *When I asked how the voice coil tore she said it was very fragile and it occurred on the second cable change.She states she had glued it back.* I told her it wasn't done properly and hence the problems with the sound. She was silent again._

 

Versus:

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *email* 
_Upon disassembly we found the kinked fragile wire that we
 had discovered the first time the headphones were worked on, to have
 developed an intermittent open circuit at the point of the pre-existing
 kink. This defect was easily repaired by soldering a fine copper wire of
 similar size between the intact end of the voice coil wire, and the
 solder tab. The repair wire was stabilized by adhering it to the body of
 the drive unit._

 

Assuming the phone call is true, they botched the job and did not even mention this to the customer.
 I don't know about you, but if I send in an item for modding or repair, I would very much like to know if something went wrong with the internals, instead of some mumbo-jumbo about repairs and conveniently "forgetting" to mention that they themselves messed something up, only to own up after they are caught red-handed.

 And if they can lie or cover up something like this, it doesn't speak much of the company's integrity.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's stupid remarks like that fueling the BS. And someone asked what does Apuresound have to gain? Hmmm additional business! How's that for accusatory. Both sides have not spoken and already we're ready to run down to JL with pitchforks and torches! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Damn, you may be onto something!


----------



## LostOne.TR

So as it currently stands...we have 
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *BoilingFrog* 
_When I asked how the voice coil tore she said it was very fragile and it occurred on the second cable change. She states she had glued it back._

 

and 
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* 
_Upon disassembly we found the kinked fragile wire that we had discovered the first time the headphones were worked on, to have 
 developed an intermittent open circuit at the point of the pre-existing 
 kink. This defect was easily repaired by soldering a fine copper wire of 
 similar size between the intact end of the voice coil wire, and the 
 solder tab. The repair wire was stabilized by adhering it to the body of 
 the drive unit._

 

Now it's disagreements as to just when (and who) the R10s were damaged (by). One side claims it was done by Jena Labs, the other side says it was done before arriving at Jena Labs for the 2nd recable. I'm not going to say one side's story is better than another. 

 For the most part this thread seems to have taken alot better of an approach, and has been more open to both sides than another thread I've read regarding issues with the workmanship of a company. There's no reason to be name calling. I'm sure people may have allegiances/relationships to either side, and the initial emotion when reading something negative about them is displeasing. But it does not make the side you support look any better if you just result to name calling. In fact, it adds to the very negative image that you'd probably like to defend against.

 Still, a few things seem odd. Is Morph201 associated with Jena Labs in some special way, that he would be the one receiving such an e-mail from Jena Labs? Since, it would look like to me, it is his business and not ours. Is there any chance Jena Labs themselves can comment?


----------



## elnero

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Upon disassembly, we also noted that on one of the drive units one of the very fine wire strands, a voice coil wire extending from the interior of the drive unit to the solder pad where connections are made, was formed into a slightly protruded loop and had been kinked. It should be noted that the other drive unit, nor any other drive units from other examples of the same make and model of headphone that we have seen, or seen photos of, exhibited such a protrusion. This
 extending loop would in our opinion represent a fault in the original construction. An attempt was made to stabilize this fragile protrusion of very fine wire by locating it adjacent to the physical boundary of the ear speaker frame, and holding it in place with adhesive. This was atrivial operation and not mentioned in any communications._

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but nothing from this explanation would explain this:

 From APureSounds site
  Quote:


 When they removed the driver they broke the voice coil and didn’t fix it so they had no idea which was the correct phase of the driver. I swapped the + and – and next thing I know the left driver is giving me nearly the exact same readings as the right side. 
 

From the description of the problem and fix from Alex's site it sounds like it was far more than a stray wire or trivial procedure they performed.


----------



## 883dave

Ahhh...Headfi

 Full of Drama and Witchhunts...


----------



## swt61

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Not that it's going to make a difference, because most of you have already decided to lynch JL.. I understand the possible frustration, but do you think a company that's been doing this for over 20 years would seriously botch a job like this??? Something is not adding up, and I'm shocked that no one else thinks this._

 

Yes I do think a company like JL could most certainly botch a job like this, and try desperately to cover it up. It happens all the time. I also believe that boilingfrog's story sounds quite genuine, while JL's story seems almost ludicrous in places, and a major attempt at CYOA. 

 I also would like to agree with Voltron that Ken Law really plays no part in this, and really doesn't deserve to be brought into this mess. That may seem strange to some of you that have read the thread some time ago about the bad soldering job on a dock I purchased from ALO, but fair is fair and Ken really has no business being crucified for only commenting on the SQ of a pair of recabled headphones that he really had very little experience with in the first place. I haven't heard an R-10 stock or otherwise, and even I might have been suitably impressed at first listen. It takes time to evaluate a headphone properly, and you also need the right conditions. Also Ken as far as I know has never sunk to the levels we've read about here of JenaLabs customer service. The only thing I've ever heard about Ken's customer service is that he bends over backwards for his customers if for any reason they have an issue. This is not an endorsement of ALO's products or a comment of said products at all, but let's be prudent about who's name we drag into the mud without very good reason.


----------



## jrosenth

Morph, I don't think that email really helped the Jena case... but I'd still love to know who you work for.

 Perhaps the most interesting twist in this is Ken's reaction to those butchered cans (as part of Jena's defense): 

 "In addition to our own sonic assessment, a leading industry
 professional, Ken Ball, owner of Audio Line Out also auditioned the
 headphones and found them to be outstanding, so much so that he created
 a web page to share his experience... As mentioned, Ken thought enough of the listening experience that he even
 created a web page to celebrate the event."

 Not that Ken reacabled the cans but that his listening impressions were positive enough to create a massive write up.

 Frankly, and this is just my opinion, but that really makes me wonder.


----------



## greenhorn

I think I saw the light.

 Alex from APureSound began a "no prisoners" war agains all cable manufacturers. 

 Jena Labs is only his first victim. 

 Boilingfrog is - everybody has guessed now - Alex himself. Yes, the bad guy trying to monopolise the cable market. 

 Morph201 is a knight in shining armour coming to save not only Jena Labs (to which he isn't connected at all but as a common customer), but all honest and defenseless cable manufacturers, the potential future victims of the bad Alex.

 Sounds convincing, eh?


----------



## tkam

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_but do you think a company that's been doing this for over 20 years would seriously botch a job like this??? Something is not adding up, and I'm shocked that no one else thinks this._

 

Actually yes I very much do. They've been in the cable making business for 20 years or however long but they haven't been in the headphone recable business that long and this was one of the first R10s they'd recabled. So yeah it's very possible that they could screw it up and lie about it.


----------



## Boilingfrog

Wow. Jenas email to Morph201 contains even more spin and lies than her original email to me. While I expected there to be a response I never expected her distort the events this much. 

 Now I am being portrayed as a difficult customer who is cursing at them all the time, lying to them, refusing to pay, and manipulating numerous circumstances just to gain I am not sure what.

 Except for the fact that I did in fact send the headphones to Jenalabs for recabling several times almost everything else in that narrative is either twisted but more commonly just outright confabulated. The last thing I want to spend my time doing is refuting each lie and perpetuating a _he said she side _ argument. My relationships with several of the beacons in this industry speak for themselves. Never once have I had even one issue with a vendor that could'nt be resolved through a simple discussion. That's just not me.

 This whole dispute would place a much more onerous burden of proof on me if it weren't for Alex's involvement and clear documentation. He also can vouch that the description of the person that Jennifer would like to portray as she digs her hole deeper and deeper is not at all who I am.

 Probably even more supportive proof is the fact that Mikhail and I have been working on products continuously for over three years. While Mikhail's work is impeccable I think it's fair to say the process to get there is often not(sorry Mikhail). That said I have NEVER even had so much as a single argument or disagreement with Mikhail. Not even once. That is the true litmus test. I am patient, communicative and open to compromise in almost every situation. Life is way too short.

 Jennifer chose the wrong person to malign. I've been around way too long with a track record of excellent relationships to even feel like I need to refute any of her lies. That she would put this much dishonest effort into saving $1000.00 is still a mystery to me. I tried to make it clear to her that this is exactly what I envisioned would happen. In the last 24 hours her losses to her reputation(and business) have been incalculable but still she pushes on.

 Anyway, I have long written off my loss to Jenalabs. My mood has been salvaged by Alex's most excellent work in fixing the phones and recabling them with his V3 cable. I suspect my R10-Woo5 R10LE is among the finest examples of headphone experience in the world(more on that later when I'm not busy responding here). I will also post on my ES2 when I get it. Look for it with Mikhail at CanJam. He says it is unequivically the finest amplifier he has ever built. One day I hope to be able to say the same thing.

 Seriously, just a small very much deserved plug for Alex. As someone who very much appreciates the details in the work and the craftsmanship that goes into making something I can say that Alex is a true master at what he does. He is incredibly humble to boot. Thank you Alex.

 Enough for now. Thanks for everyones support in this matter. And thanks for the welcome to Headfi. Now that I've been sucked in I have even less time to get things done 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## Morph201

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *greenhorn* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think I saw the light.

 Alex from APureSound began a "no prisoners" war agains all cable manufacturers. 

 Jena Labs is only his first victim. 

 Boilingfrog is - everybody has guessed now - Alex himself. Yes, the bad guy trying to monopolise the cable market. 

 Morph201 is a knight in shining armour coming to save not only Jena Labs (to which he isn't connected at all but as a common customer), but all honest and defenseless cable manufacturers, the potential future victims of the bad Alex.

 Sounds convincing, eh? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 


 I am no one's Knight in shining armour, nor am I knocking anyone's credibility... I just suggested we keep a level head and hear both sides before making any quick judgements either way. Now if that makes me the bad guy, then so be it. 

 Boilingfrog: Welcome to head-fi and I'm sorry your first post had to start of this way...


----------



## AC1

So JL wants us to believe that somebody who has done everything in the background before, all of a sudden comes out just to post a lie about them.

 I mean really what is the benefit of Boilingfrog coming out here and even lying? So he can get his money back? It just doesn't add up unless Boilingfrog just wanted to waste some time which clearly he has not done on here before.


----------



## naamanf

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_$1,500.00 First JENA Labs harness
 $1,300.00 Second, smaller gauge wire, JENA Labs harness
 $ 450.00 stock Sony harness install
 $ 60.00 duplex outlet [ forgetting about the first set sent]
 _$ 226.00 shipping and insurance._
 $3,536.00 TOTAL_

 

Seriously? I mean seriously? I can't imagine a cable reinstall taking more than an hour. I know doctors that charge less. And this is something any skilled 10 year old in a third world factory can do for $.05. 

 I reserve a spot in hell for them based on this alone.


----------



## laxx

What would really explain who's lying is for Boilingfrog to post his emails with JL. If they're different than what they sent to Morph201, I think we'll know what's up.


----------



## kpeezy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *naamanf* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Seriously? I mean seriously? I can't imagine a cable reinstall taking less than an hour. I know doctors that charge less. And this is something any skilled 10 year old in a third world factory can do for $.05. 

 I reserve a spot in hell for them based on this alone._

 

Haha..


----------



## stevenkelby

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just suggested we keep a level head and hear both sides before making any quick judgements either way._

 

Like you did?

 Did you?

 Did you hear Boilingfrog's side from him before posting in defense of Jena?

 We're all curious.


----------



## tk3

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *naamanf* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Seriously? I mean seriously? I can't imagine a cable reinstall taking less than an hour. I know doctors that charge less. And this is something any skilled 10 year old in a third world factory can do for $.05. 

 I reserve a spot in hell for them based on this alone._

 

I agree, those numbers look like they mistakenly added a zero after each.
 I mean, 226 USD for shipping and insurance alone on a headphone that probably doesn't even weigh 5 KG with case?
 For that price they better teleport it right into my house with a matter transporter.
 450 to replace the stock cable back, etc.


----------



## n_maher

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tk3* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I mean, 226 USD for shipping and insurance alone on a headphone that probably doesn't even weigh 5 KG with case?_

 

Actually, that's the only figure that I can understand. They did ship it back and forth 3 times, and depending on the service used and how much insurance they provided it's not all that hard to justify that number. 

 The other portions of the bill, I guess that's their prerogative just like it's mine to never to agree to pay that much for that type of service that comes with *exactly zero guarantee*.


----------



## elnero

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sacd lover* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Buying their products does not make this situation "your business". Furthermore, unless you have spoken with the owner of the headphones as well it appears YOU are the one jumping to conclusions based on one side of the story._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It is my business, that's all YOU need to know.. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

If it is your business then it sounds suspiciously like you have financial involvement with Jena, is that the case?


----------



## morphsci

So is Jena Labs going to really respond? Unless Morph 201 works for them or is their representative I cannot accept that as their official response. Hmm... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I am also with Voltron on this as their is no indication that ALO has any involvement with this so their is absolutely no reason to drag them into this (Like Jena Labs did 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ). I have had business dealings with both Ken and Alex and both have been otstanding in terms of workmanship and customer service. I have had no dealings with Jena Labs at all.

 P.S. No relation to Morph201, I am the original Morph


----------



## Kees

I find it somewhat disturbing that some HeadFi members seem to think they are qualified to judge a situation like this....


----------



## FooTemps

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *naamanf* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Seriously? I mean seriously? I can't imagine a cable reinstall taking less than an hour. I know doctors that charge less. And this is something any skilled 10 year old in a third world factory can do for $.05. 

 I reserve a spot in hell for them based on this alone._

 

Cables I can justify as ridiculously expensive (because they have always been ridiculously expensive whether we like it or not).... but those reinstall prices are ridiculous. I've built cables and reterminated headphones and it takes nowhere near that amount of money, skill, or time to justify that price. ESPECIALLY for a STOCK REINSTALL. Ridiculous prices IMO.


----------



## stevenkelby

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Kees* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I find it somewhat disturbing that some HeadFi members seem to think they are qualified to judge a situation like this...._

 

I find it somewhat disturbing that some HeadFi members seem to think they are qualified to judge some HeadFi members...


 JK.


----------



## FooTemps

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Kees* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I find it somewhat disturbing that some HeadFi members seem to think they are qualified to judge a situation like this...._

 

I'm not here to say anything bad about JL or APS. I just think prices of custom work are ridiculous in general. I may not have the most beautiful braids, but I sure as hell know what recabling a headphone entails and can perform what's required to recable. I know it's much more difficult with headphones like the R10. The cost is prohibitive and it is very easy to get scared of destroying parts.


----------



## xnothingpoetic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *stevenkelby* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I find it somewhat disturbing that some HeadFi members seem to think they are qualified to judge some HeadFi members...


 JK. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I find is disturbing that some head-fi member seems to think they are qualified to judge some other head-fi member for judging other head-fi members for judging a situation like this.

 ...wait what?


----------



## Hirsch

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ I understand the possible frustration, but do you think a company that's been doing this for over 20 years would seriously botch a job like this??? Something is not adding up, and I'm shocked that no one else thinks this._

 

Just out of curiousity, did you receive Jena Labs' permission to post their email to you? Normal courtesy would require that. I'm also curious about why Jena Labs would send you such a detailed account of what happened, yet not make a public comment of their own. It appears that they have everything written down, and would just have had to cut and paste their letter to you (unless their legal counsel had advised against public comment, in which case you have done them a great disservice).

 Just as an aside, I've auditioned the Jena Labs Symphony interconnects at home. They have great tonality, and make a great first impression. However, they also have a lack of focus that starts to wear with time (in my case, I could only listen for about 15 minutes per session before I got frustrated). The staging simply isn't there, and it became difficult to place any instruments precisely (the pair I auditioned had been well burned-in). Definitely not something that I'd want in my systems. The staging is one area where the R10 (and the Qualia 010) lead all dynamic headphones, with the exception of the K-1000. If their headphone cable has any sonic relationship to their interconnects, there is no way that I would put that on an R10, work quality issues aside.


----------



## FooTemps

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *xnothingpoetic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I find is disturbing that some head-fi member seems to think they are qualified to judge some other head-fi member for judging other head-fi members for judging a situation like this.

 ...wait what?_

 

I find it disturbing that head-fi'ers get confused about judging members that judge other members about judging others in a situation like this...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I got that right, right? lol


----------



## naamanf

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FooTemps* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Cables I can justify as ridiculously expensive (because they have always been ridiculously expensive whether we like it or not).... but those reinstall prices are ridiculous. I've built cables and reterminated headphones and it takes nowhere near that amount of money, skill, or time to justify that price. ESPECIALLY for a STOCK REINSTALL. Ridiculous prices IMO._

 

They are ridiculously expensive on the retail side of things yes. But how much do you think it really costs them to manufacture/purchase the cable? My guess is $.10 per foot. So with this re-cable job they had maybe of $6 their cost for cable. And realistically they could give that cable the their "leading industry professional". So we won't even count the cost of cable. And I would say a realistic cost for their time on the cables would be $120. Just monkeys working with wire not brain surgeons. I would say $150 on postage. Throw another $20 for boxes and bubble wrap. So we are at $290 of their actual cost. 

 So keeping with the customer is always right (no matter how big a jerk they may or may not be) the proper thing to do would have been to send his headphones back the way you found them and call the thing a wash. 

 But what do they do instead? Try and justify charging him $1000 for a service/product he was not satisfied with that only cost them $290. And them have the nerve to say they were giving him a great deal because it was worth $4000. Poor customer service just from this aspect alone. This is all not taking into account that they might actually be at fault for the damaged headphone.


----------



## furball

Holy cow! In just one day this thread has grown to over 12 pages!

 This is better than soap opera! I'm lovin it!


----------



## morphsci

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Hirsch* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ I'm also curious about why Jena Labs would send you such a detailed account of what happened, yet not make a public comment of their own._

 

Plausible deniability?


----------



## Riboge

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Kees* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I find it somewhat disturbing that some HeadFi members seem to think they are qualified to judge a situation like this...._

 

Me, too. Your statement does NOT judge anyone. It is reports a feeling/reaction, which is not a judgment and which as such is not subject to judgment either. 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Hirsch* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just out of curiousity, did you receive Jena Labs' permission to post their email to you? Normal courtesy would require that. I'm also curious about why Jena Labs would send you such a detailed account of what happened, yet not make a public comment of their own. It appears that they have everything written down, and would just have had to cut and paste their letter to you (unless their legal counsel had advised against public comment, in which case you have done them a great disservice)._

 

One can wonder if the email from JL to Morph201 was implicitly meant to be shared indirectly or to motivate him to defend JL in lieu of them making a direct public statement they would have to answer for. In that case, he has indeed foiled them by quoting it rather than just referring to it. Given that they at least contributed to the impossible situation he found himself in by 1)commenting to him only in the first place and 2)continuing to not comment publicly once he referred to their email , I think he no longer owed them the courtesy you mention.


----------



## Voltron

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Hirsch* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just out of curiousity, did you receive Jena Labs' permission to post their email to you? Normal courtesy would require that. I'm also curious about why Jena Labs would send you such a detailed account of what happened, yet not make a public comment of their own. It appears that they have everything written down, and would just have had to cut and paste their letter to you (unless their legal counsel had advised against public comment, in which case you have done them a great disservice)._

 

Exactly, Hirsch. It is odd on many levels that Jena Labs would send a third party details about a transaction with one of its customers, but it is hilarious that they appear to have used their original letter to that customer to create the email to morph201. The email switches back and forth from "S.W./he/him/his" to "you/your" which would indicate they just modified their letter to BoilingFrog. It would really be amazing if those instances of "S.W." in the email really included his full name and morph201 decided to edit the email to initials. It is completely inappropriate for Jena Labs -- or any company -- to tell a complete stranger to the situation their customer's name!


 Oh, and speaking of names, swt61 slipped above and mentioned Ken Law when he meant to say Ken Ball, who is the actual owner of ALO. Kinda funny given that Steve was rightly saying we shouldn't drag ALO through the mud but then inadvertently associating ALO with Ken Law of Storm Audio infamy. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Funny stuff.


----------



## chesebert

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Voltron* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Oh, and speaking of names, swt61 slipped above and mentioned Ken Law when he meant to say Ken Ball, who is the actual owner of ALO. Kinda funny given that Steve was rightly saying we shouldn't drag ALO through the mud but then inadvertently associating ALO with Ken Law of Storm Audio infamy. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Funny stuff._

 

very funny observation indeed.


----------



## W.T.

Crikey this thread has blown up! There are so many posts that i would like to quote and respond to - but at this point i do not see the point of rehashing what has already been said. (No matter how much we love beating a dead horse about members who have a lack of judgement... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 )

 In the end its up to each person to believe the side of the story they want. Through several members posts some people are clearly taking specific sides based on events as they were relayed to us, i think in the end we should evaluate the workmanship and not the situation. While tragic and traumatizing to see a pair of R10's go through this kind of treatment, im more interested right now in the end results. (Yes, its the selfish 'how does this affect me' look on this)

 First im quite concerned that they were fixing the driver wire with epoxy glue. This just sounds... appaling to me. Also - my question is, if JL is so qualified to work on R10's why were they not able to repair the pair to their original condition? Which brings me to my point. Im once again impressed by Alex's workmanship, skill, and attention to detail. This is just another reason i would (and do!) trust APureSound with my gear. Devil is in the details no? and arent the details why we constantly upgrade, swap, and test new gear? 

 Once again. Im not analyzing the characters, or actions (although they are definately a factor when chosing who to buy from and work with) - simply the workmanship.

 ~*WT*~


----------



## stevenkelby

I'd like to see pics of the drivers after Alex fixed them, how did he repair the damaged coil wire and remove the epoxy?

 There are no pics without the foam covering that part.


----------



## kpeezy

Was there a response to this portion of the article on APS?

 "The voice coil of the left side driver was torn completely when removing the driver. Based on how the drivers are installed in the housing this is because either an improper tool was used or a tool was used improperly. Trying to fix the voice coil they removed the entire driver dampening and filter from the back side. The worst part is that it doesn’t seem that the voice coil extensions were ever actually soldered to the voice coil, but simply laid down to touch and glued down with epoxy which is impossible to remove without further damage to the voice coils."

 I don't see how Mikhail's recabling could have done that. Maybe it could be explained to me.

 -Kyle


----------



## recstar24

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kpeezy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 I don't see how Mikhail's recabling could have done that. Maybe it could be explained to me.

 -Kyle_

 

Well basically, without even removing the drivers and without even opening up the enclosures he found a way just by splicing the cable on causing massive destruction through telekinesis or maybe sympathetic vibrations from extreme soldering.

 I think the evidence speaks for itself and it is clear who is at fault. Said party should have done the right thing and not only refunded the money but even a simple "We are sorry, how can we accomodate you" goes a LONG way. 

 Whoever you decide to side with, I hope readers have enough smarts to interpret the evidence listed and clearly realize that at bare minimum you should probably not send your R10's to jenalabs as their are much better and knowledgeable sources to recable them. Two thumbs down to jenalabs as well for their treatment of the customer.


----------



## Uncle Erik

Quote:


 $1,500.00 First JENA Labs harness
 $1,300.00 Second, smaller gauge wire, JENA Labs harness
 $ 450.00 stock Sony harness install
 $ 60.00 duplex outlet [ forgetting about the first set sent]
 _$ 226.00 shipping and insurance._
 $3,536.00 TOTAL 
 

It shouldn't cost that much. If you look at restoration work on non-audiophile gear, like radios/transmitters and guitar amps, you'll find that you can have 30-40 capacitors and resistors replaced for less than one recable, and that would probably include an alignment, biasing, and other work. Replacing parts in an old amp is much, much, much more difficult than removing four wires and soldering four new ones to the pads. That's child's play. Sony uses a tough enamel on their wires that's difficult to remove sans chemical strippers, but that's about it.

 I've recabled headphones and replaced upwards of 80 components in a complex old tubed communications receiver. Been through more than 100 tube radios, as well. There's not much argument about which is more difficult, yet one costs $1,500 and is screwed up. Unf'nbelieveable. You could have an experienced tech do it for $50 or less.

 Not sure why cryo costs so much, either. Cryo is used for a lot of industrial applications, so most cities have a cryo facility or two. I've taken in woodworking tool blades for treatment. That's generally under $10. I'm sure you can have your cables cryo treated for under $10, as well. You can have an engine block cryo treated for less than one of these cable jobs.


----------



## FooTemps

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Uncle Erik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It shouldn't cost that much. If you look at restoration work on non-audiophile gear, like radios/transmitters and guitar amps, you'll find that you can have 30-40 capacitors and resistors replaced for less than one recable, and that would probably include an alignment, biasing, and other work. Replacing parts in an old amp is much, much, much more difficult than removing four wires and soldering four new ones to the pads. That's child's play. Sony uses a tough enamel on their wires that's difficult to remove sans chemical strippers, but that's about it.

 I've recabled headphones and replaced upwards of 80 components in a complex old tubed communications receiver. Been through more than 100 tube radios, as well. There's not much argument about which is more difficult, yet one costs $1,500 and is screwed up. Unf'nbelieveable. You could have an experienced tech do it for $50 or less.

 Not sure why cryo costs so much, either. Cryo is used for a lot of industrial applications, so most cities have a cryo facility or two. I've taken in woodworking tool blades for treatment. That's generally under $10. I'm sure you can have your cables cryo treated for under $10, as well. You can have an engine block cryo treated for less than one of these cable jobs._

 

Exactly, but the reason why it's so expensive is because our market basically demands it. No believes that high end can be cheap hence the ridiculous prices. If everyone knew about production costs and believed profit margin shouldn't somewhere in the 200% to 1200% range, a lot of companies would be gone. But as of right now, it's the opposite with cheap companies losing market share for being low priced.


----------



## subtle

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's stupid remarks like that fueling the BS. And someone asked what does Apuresound have to gain? Hmmm additional business! How's that for accusatory. Both sides have not spoken and already we're ready to run down to JL with pitchforks and torches! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

No it's intelligent remarks like that that are painfully obvious and make complete sense.

 I was the one that asked what Apuresound stands to gain. Additional business? Who are you kidding? How many R10 owners out there, outside of head-fi, would even consider a recable on a headphone that valuable? Let's be real, very few. So Alex stands to gain the business of possibly a few more R10 owners here on the forum, an amount you could count on two, possibly even one hand? Keep reaching there buddy.

 Let's not even delve in to the fact that Alex charges about a third of the ridiculous amount that JOKElabs attempts to bilk from their customers for a recable on those specific headphones.

 That email you presented is so full of lawyer speak crap. It's like a neon sign admitting their guilt while still attempting to be in denial about it. I love all the cheesy capitalized words and especially the last sentence with the District Attorney comment. People like this always get what's coming to them in the end.

 At least her last name is accurate in regards to the crock of $hit she just laid out there.


----------



## Morph201

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FooTemps* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Exactly, but the reason why it's so expensive is because our market basically demands it. No believes that high end can be cheap hence the ridiculous prices. If everyone knew about production costs and believed profit margin shouldn't somewhere in the 200% to 1200% range, a lot of companies would be gone. But as of right now, it's the opposite with cheap companies losing market share for being low priced._

 

x2.... Nordost, Shunyata,etc... You honestly think a powercord needs to cost $1200+??? Marketing 101... Don't hate the player, hate the game!


----------



## FooTemps

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_x2.... Nordost, Shunyata,etc... You honestly think a powercord needs to cost $1200+??? Marketing 101... Don't hate the player, hate the game! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

So, who wants to start a cable company with me? Cryo treated foil cables for 20 bucks a pop!? lol


----------



## jrosenth

Hey Morph,

 Did I miss it or did you ever explain your relationship with Jena?

 Or at the very least why they happened to detail a customer's information to you via email and whether they know you disseminated it on the web?

 More than a few folks have asked this - just wondering if you're planning on answering or simply going on about marketing with catchy little phrases?


----------



## markl

Quote:


 I was the one that asked what Apuresound stands to gain. 
 

 Quote:


 All I can say is that I am truly honored to have my headphones recabled by Alex. 
 

 Quote:


 On the bright side, apuresound has one more future customer in me. 
 

Bingo! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Let's face it, this thread with its links to Alex's site and showing how he rescued a valuable headphone is a nice advertisement for his services. It's identical to the page Jena put up showing how superior her services are compared to the splice job done by another mod-er. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Now before anyone jumps down my throat, I've used Alex's service which was outstanding, and the work he did (which I saw up close while mod-ing the headphone) was immaculate.


----------



## bunbut

The person willing to put up that much of money for recable and willing to work with you again after you mess up the first time. They should had done everything to make this guy happy, and he may even come back with more business, instead of all this. And they let the phones left their facility sound worse than before and tell the owner it sound better. Let forget about who mess up, but can you trust their ears with your phones now with all this?


----------



## morphsci

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Let's not be naive, though. Someone did well out of all this fuss._

 

Exactly. All those poor slobs whose R10's will not be mangled by JL.


----------



## [AK]Zip

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Bingo! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Let's face it, this thread with its links to Alex's site and showing how he rescued a valuable headphone is a nice advertisement for his services. It's identical to the page Jena put up showing how superior her services are compared to the splice job done by another mod-er. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Now before anyone jumps down my throat, I've used Alex's service which was outstanding, and the work he did (which I saw up close while mod-ing the headphone) was immaculate. 

 Let's not be naive, though. Someone one big out of all this fuss._

 

To be fair I was asked to do the write up of everything that was wrong with the R10's by BoilingFrog. The pictures were taken before to show him what all I found because that is what was asked of me. As BoilingFrog said he had no intension of going public until JenaLabs no longer wanted to have anything to do with him at which point he asked me if I can do a write up.

 Thanks,
 Alex


----------



## markl

Quote:


 Exactly. All those poor slobs whose R10's will not be mangled by JL. 
 

 morphsci, don't get me wrong, I'm not defending Jena Labs. Man, that poor R10. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


 To be fair I was asked to do the write up of everything that was wrong with the R10's by BoilingFrog. The pictures were taken before to show him what all I found because that is what was asked of me. As BoilingFrog said he had no intension of going public until JenaLabs no longer wanted to have anything to do with him at which point he asked me if I can do a write up. 
 

 Hi Alex, not picking a fight at all, but the story is the first thing we see on your home page, which is totally fine, you are certainly allowed to advertise on your own web site! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Obviously, it's a great piece of marketing for you and highlights your particular expertise in rescuing a valuable headphone, so good for you. I wouldn't suggest for a second you put anyone up to posting it all here, it would have ended up here sooner or later no matter what, it's a big story and a great scandal! But it is also great publicity for you, so enjoy. Take care.


----------



## Voltron

Maybe you edited out the last line of your post above to make it less of an obvious affront to Alex, but he must have quoted you in the process of doing the edit. You had removed the words "did well" from "someone did well out of all this fuss" and you had also removed the roll-eyes and the winky or cool smileys (can't recall exactly) but the rest of that line was still there. Really professional commentary, there. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Alex has already said his piece, but it is ridiculous to accuse him of being out for gain by attempting to enlighten potential customers of JenaLabs about an experience one of its customers suffered through. Alex was asked to post that information and it is all well-documented for those who are interested. Suggesting it is a bad idea for people to consider this information when thinking about a $1500 re-cable job is beneath you.


----------



## n_maher

Nice bit of self promotion your doing by posting in this thread as well, Mark. Or did you forget that you're an MOT now who performs headphone mods for money?


----------



## kpeezy

I think everyone knows it's publicity for APS. I don't think that's a problem. However, your winking emoticons and other statements seem to be questioning Alex's motives behind this. Maybe it was just bad wording on your part.

 -Kyle


----------



## Riboge

So many people are jumping to conclusions and making unfounded accusations in this thread. It really is shameful. None of us can make a responsible conclusion or fairly accuse anyone based on what has been presented here.
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jrosenth* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey Morph,

 Did I miss it or did you ever explain your relationship with Jena?

 Or at the very least why they happened to detail a customer's information to you via email and whether they know you disseminated it on the web?

 More than a few folks have asked this - just wondering if you're planning on answering or simply going on about marketing with catchy little phrases?_

 

Just because you'd like to know the relationship doesn't mean he is obliged to tell you, and not doing so does not warrant your conclusion or any conclusion. JL could know of the dissemination by reading this thread without his telling them or knowing if they know.

 Other plausible explanations have been proposed for JL communicating with him and not the public, so you cannot conclude that he has some special or marketing relationship to JL just because they emailed him and he supports them.
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Bingo! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Let's face it, this thread with its links to Alex's site and showing how he rescued a valuable headphone is a nice advertisement for his services. It's identical to the page Jena put up showing how superior her services are compared to the splice job done by another mod-er. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Now before anyone jumps down my throat, I've used Alex's service which was outstanding, and the work he did (which I saw up close while mod-ing the headphone) was immaculate. 

 Let's not be naive, though. Someone did well out of all this fuss._

 

I'm surprise at you, Markl. The fact that he seemingly will benefit is far from enough to conclude he set out to do that as his main motive for sharing his observations of the recabled headphones. You can wonder but no more. Naivety can keep you from the truth but so can cynicism.

 Early in this thread someone asserted that one is innocent until proven guilty and then someone else said that was long since obsolete. Sadly it may be so for many , but nothing could be worse for relations among people or for obtaining the truth.


----------



## markl

Quote:


 Alex has already said his piece, but it is ridiculous to accuse him of being out for gain by attempting to enlighten potential customers of JenaLabs about an experience one of its customers suffered through. Alex was asked to post that information and it is all well-documented for those who are interested. Claiming it is a bad idea for people to consider this information when thinking about a $1500 re-cable job is beneath you. 
 

 For the record, there were no roll-eyes.

 Dude, relax. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I've got nothing against Alex or his fine service as I said. I'm pointing out the obvious to the previous poster who wondered what APS would gain by writing this up. It's the same thing Jena hoped to gain by showing pics of the previous botched job that was done on that R10. The message is-- we know what we are doing, the other guys don't, please use our service.

 I'm happy for the poor owner of that R10 that he was able to find a solution and lucky that Alex was there to fix that precious headphone.


----------



## Voltron

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_For the record, there were no roll-eyes.

 Dude, relax. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I've got nothing against Alex or his fine service as I said. I'm pointing out the obvious to the previous poster who wondered what APS would gain by writing this up. It's the same thing Jena hoped to gain by showing pics of the previous botched job that was done on that R10. The message is-- we know what we are doing, the other guys don't, please use our service.

 I'm happy for the poor owner of that R10 that he was able to find a solution and lucky that Alex was there to fix that precious headphone. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Sorry, just a winking smiley and a cool sunglasses smiley at the end of the line you changed. Oh, and don't tell me to relax.


----------



## markl

Quote:


 I'm surprise at you, Markl. The fact that he seemingly will benefit is far from enough to conclude he set out to do that as his main motive for sharing his observations of the recabled headphones. 
 

 You're right, I don't know for a fact what his motive was for making it public (and again, he is 100% entitled to post whatever he wants on his web-site, and more power to him, this is a great case study that shows the quality of his work compared to some others). Any good business man would have done the same. 

 OK, I'm out, I got no dog in this fight!


----------



## boomana

The email morph201 posted, as has been said, is full of holes, which Voltron pointed out. Since Jena isn't probably stupid enough to post publicly, I'm very curious as to morph201's involvement:

Why email Jena with a concern not your own? Do you specifically have R10s? Had you already sent them to JenaLabs for a recable and were looking for reassurance that they wouldn't botch yours? That's the only possible innocent reason. Anything else reeks of being fishy.
If not the first, what _is_ your business since, when asked your involvement in the matter, you only responded: "It is my business, that's all YOU need to know.."?
Is your relationship with Jena so close that they felt free to actually respond in detail about a dispute involving another customer (very unethical)? I can't imagine any company with integrity and/or business sense doing that with just any old customer, even a good customer.
And, as Hirsch said, did you get permission from Jena to post their correspondence with you? If not, that's a problem. If so, that's an entirely different problem.

 Since the situation at hand doesn't concern you at all, but you decided to put yourself in the position of being Jena's spokesperson in a public forum anyway, I think these questions are fair, have been asked by others, and so far, you've side-stepped answering.


----------



## markl

Quote:


 Nice bit of self promotion your doing by posting in this thread as well, Mark. Or did you forget that you're an MOT now who performs headphone mods for money? 
 

 Hmmm, I mentioned the mod because why else would I have had the phone open to be able to see the quality of Alex's work? Also, under my title, it says what I do (placed there by Jude), so it's there in every post I make on any topic. If the mods find something amiss, I'm sure they'll fix it.

 OK, now I'm out. Cheers.


----------



## jrosenth

Um, okay MarkL.

 It just seems kind of tactless or juvenile for a Member of the Trade's contribution to be just that.

 Just IMHO


----------



## boomana

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Riboge* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 Just because you'd like to know the relationship doesn't mean he is obliged to tell you, and not doing so does not warrant your conclusion or any conclusion. JL could know of the dissemination by reading this thread without his telling them or knowing if they know.

 Other plausible explanations have been proposed for JL communicating with him and not the public, so you cannot conclude that he has some special or marketing relationship to JL just because they emailed him and he supports them._

 

You're right. He's not obliged to tell, nor can any conclusions be reached by his unwillingness to do so, other than knowing he's refusing to say. At the same time, he's perfectly willing to post accusatory statements toward the R10 owner out there, acting as a spokesperson for JenaLabs. His actions and motives do warrant questioning, and a refusal to answer why the heck he would do that without having personal involvement doesn't make sense unless he has something to hide.


----------



## smeggy

Very fishy indeed the way he interjected and sidesteps what may be very pertinent information to the discussion at hand. 

 Also, no matter what someones motives may be, as long as it's not malicious and the info is factual then it's most welcomed. If we don't keep a check on how we're treated by others we're potentially subject to similar misfortunes. We've all seen the photos of the sorry state of the R10 when Alex received them. I certainly would want to know this prior to any business dealings I might have with a company. Any company.


----------



## Ragonix

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *boomana* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The email morph201 posted, as has been said, is full of holes, which Voltron pointed out. Since Jena isn't probably stupid enough to post publicly, I'm very curious as to morph201's involvement:

Why email Jena with a concern not your own? Do you specifically have R10s? Had you already sent them to JenaLabs for a recable and were looking for reassurance that they wouldn't botch yours? That's the only possible innocent reason. Anything else reeks of being fishy.
If not the first, what is your business since, when asked your involvement in the matter, you only responded: "It is my business, that's all YOU need to know.."?
Is your relationship with Jena so close that they felt free to actually respond in detail about a dispute involving another customer (very unethical)? I can't imagine any company with integrity and/or business sense doing that with just any old customer, even a good customer.
And, as Hirsch said, did you get permission from Jena to post their correspondence with you? If not, that's a problem. If so, that's an entirely different problem.

 Since the situation at hand doesn't concern you at all, but you decided to put yourself in the position of being Jena's spokesperson in a public forum anyway, I think these questions are fair, have been asked by others, and so far, you've side-stepped answering.

_

 


 You know why? It's because Morph IS Jennifer.


----------



## Riboge

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *boomana* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_... Since Jena isn't probably stupid enough to post publicly, I'm very curious as to morph201's involvement:

Why email Jena with a concern not your own? Do you specifically have R10s? Had you already sent them to JenaLabs for a recable and were looking for reassurance that they wouldn't botch yours? That's the only possible innocent reason. Anything else reeks of being fishy.
If not the first, what is your business since, when asked your involvement in the matter, you only responded: "It is my business, that's all YOU need to know.."?
Is your relationship with Jena so close that they felt free to actually respond in detail about a dispute involving another customer (very unethical)? I can't imagine any company with integrity and/or business sense doing that with just any old customer, even a good customer.
And, as Hirsch said, did you get permission from Jena to post their correspondence with you? If not, that's a problem. If so, that's an entirely different problem.

 Since the situation at hand doesn't concern you at all, but you decided to put yourself in the position of being Jena's spokesperson in a public forum anyway, I think these questions are fair, have been asked by others, and so far, you've side-stepped answering._

 

As someone who supposedly wants answers you have foolishly done everything you could to assure that there will be none. If I were to think like you, I would conclude you want to condemn him now not give him a fair hearing. For instance, about permission to post JL's email: you say it's a problem, i.e, you will condemn, either way, so no answer is the only defense.

 Just what is so obviously, inescapably wrong or rat-like about, let's suppose, a friend wanting to seek out her point of view, defend her and speak for her in a situation in which you admit she would be "stupid" to speak herself? Given your rule out innocence then ask questions approach, it appears to me it would be stupid for him to speak further as well.


----------



## powertoold

I don't understand why we are starting personal attacks in this thread. 

 I think morph201 only had good intentions. He simply wanted both sides of the story before jumping to conclusions. Since he probably had a lot of time on his hands and is a JL customer himself, he contacted JL and asked them about this incident. I don't see anything wrong with that. Also, any email JL sent to him is probably as good as an email for everyone else. Since morph201 didn't have any specific involvement in the matter, his posting of the email shouldn't have any negative repercussions. 

 Also, Alex posted the whole ordeal on his site to not only get some publicity for himself but also to help Boilingfrog expose JL's poor practices. This is killing two birds with one stone. If Boilingfrog had simply created a thread in here, there wouldn't be as much of a stir in the community.


----------



## morphsci

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *powertoold* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ Since morph201 didn't have any specific involvement in the matter,_

 


 Bingo ... we have a winner. He opened the door so people want to know how he was privy to information that any respectable business would not share with random customers. Sorry but that is a valid question, not an attack. If he chooses not to answer that is certainly his prerogative, but in that case then you are inviting speculation to take over for fact.


----------



## Fungi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *powertoold* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don'tI think morph201 only had good intentions. He simply wanted both sides of the story before jumping to conclusions. Since he probably had a lot of time on his hands and is a JL customer himself, he contacted JL and asked them about this incident. I don't see anything wrong with that. Also, any email JL sent to him is probably as good as an email for everyone else. Since morph201 didn't have any specific involvement in the matter, his posting of the email shouldn't have any negative repercussions._

 

I think you need to read between the lines more carefully. It's painfully obvious what Morph201 wants to do.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *powertoold* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Also, Alex posted the whole ordeal on his site to not only get some publicity for himself but also to help Boilingfrog expose JL's poor practices. This is killing two birds with one stone. If Boilingfrog had simply created a thread in here, there wouldn't be as much of a stir in the community._

 

Read Alex's and Boilingfrog's posts more carefully. Alex was asked by Boilingfrog to post it and Boilingfrog really, really tried to keep this quiet. If his motive was to trash JenaLabs, he would have done so much earlier. As for not as much of a stir, I wouldn't think so, given how big the JenaLabs name is and how famous the R10 is. Alex just happened to be the one to have the skills to take apart the R10 and show how JenaLabs mangled the headphones.


----------



## Voltron

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Fungi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think you need to read between the lines more carefully. It's painfully obvious what Morph201 wants to do.

 Read Alex's and Boilingfrog's posts more carefully. Alex was asked by Boilingfrog to post it and Boilingfrog really, really tried to keep this quiet. If his motive was to trash JenaLabs, he would have done so much earlier. As for not as much of a stir, I wouldn't think so, given how big the JenaLabs name is and how famous the R10 is. Alex just happened to be the one to have the skills to take apart the R10 and show how JenaLabs mangled the headphones._

 

Plus, neither Alex nor BoilingFrog started this thread . . .


----------



## powertoold

I understand Boilingfrog tried his best to keep this under the table, but JL failed to respond to any of his requests. Now, he wants to expose the ordeal (through Alex) so that people can be warned. I'm not saying Boilingfrog is trying to trash JL. He is simply doing what any sane customer would do: tell about their experiences (especially bad ones).

 It would be horrible if JL had nothing to say. That would just mean Boilingfrog's story is accurate. If Boilingfrog's story is true, we can see that JL likes to simply turn a blind eye and do the "blah blah blah I'm not listening!" treatment on their unsatisfied customers. This is the worst way to treat a customer: simply ignoring them and giving them stupid policy reminders.


----------



## PITTM

The random people coming in to defend JL and morph are pretty good at ignoring the use of logic...yeah it is totally normal for a business owner to send some random customer a long rant about another customer...and then to have that customer post it on a message board...

 I mean really guys, just think about why such a strange thing would happen...


----------



## Edwood

Pictures speak for themselves.

 The rest.



 Is pure entertainment. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			







 Argh. Where's my evil smiley? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 -Ed


----------



## recstar24

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PITTM* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The random people coming in to defend JL and morph are pretty good at ignoring the use of logic...yeah it is totally normal for a business owner to send some random customer a long rant about another customer...and then to have that customer post it on a message board...

 I mean really guys, just think about why such a strange thing would happen..._

 

Yeah, I am not sure if that represents good business ethics on the part of JenaLabs. JL could have easily remedied the situation by owning up to their faulty work and service, refunded the money, and accomodated the customer in general. However they decided to play the blind eye, your loss card, and ultimately sharing this negative experience with the boards is at minimum a call to take precaution if one were to send their cans to JL to be recabled. If someone chooses to send their R10 to JenaLabs after reading this thread, that is their perogative. 

 Using the fabled skill of logic that appears to be lost on some here in this thread, I do believe it is quite unethical for JL to disclose their side of the story through an apparent outside party who is conveying that they have no business with either side. Only someone who actually represents JL should be allowed to represent their side. Morph would need to chime in and be transparent about any connection or involvement (especially if its financial) with JL to give that email any sense of credibility. We are not talking about a $150 portable amp here guys, this is a $1000+ botch job that could have potentially ruined a $4000+ out of production can.


----------



## swt61

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Voltron* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Oh, and speaking of names, swt61 slipped above and mentioned Ken Law when he meant to say Ken Ball, who is the actual owner of ALO. Kinda funny given that Steve was rightly saying we shouldn't drag ALO through the mud but then inadvertently associating ALO with Ken Law of Storm Audio infamy. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Funny stuff._

 

Oh crap! You are so right. What was I thinking? I would never purposely associate anyone's name with Ken Law. Yes I definitely meant to type Ken Ball. Sorry Ken, it was an unintentional slip and nothing more. And I state again (correctly this time) that I've never heard anything bad about Ken Ball & ALO's customer service.


----------



## FooTemps

lol, I find it hilarious how posting on head-fi is like watching a politcal debate about dumb black midgets. Way too many people act like they're treading on eggshells.

 /yes, I really do mean little African American people with learning disabilities
 //I'll edit this post if it's too much of a troll post. I just wanted to make a point about being too political about a cut and dry business matter.


----------



## swt61

markl, really now! Call it whatever you want, but a dig is a dig, and you've got a very hard row to hoe indeed if you're trying to sully Alex or APS. 

 Sugar coat it all you want, but even bringing that up was in poor taste IMHO.

 Yes Alex is a business man. Yes Alex's business could benefit from positive advertisement. However Alex didn't solicit this customer in any ambulance chasing fashion, and any benefit that his business may gain from this incident was obtained in a completely ethical manor. Benefiting from doing great work and giving great customer service is hardly under handed in any way.
 You didn't say it was, but you certainly had some reason for even bringing it up, and therefor it was implied. 

 At least you've learned the jab and weave technique that I suggested would be helpful to you in that last debacle where you couldn't stop talking, even though you just kept digging a bigger hole. Bravo!


----------



## FooTemps

lol? markl? he hasn't commented since page 15?


----------



## markl

Quote:


 However Alex didn't solicit this customer in any ambulance chasing fashion, 
 

 Good Lord, who said he did? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


 and any benefit that his business may gain from this incident was obtained in a completely ethical manor. 
 

 I never suggested anything unethical happened, do you read posts or just like to get upset? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Someone asked how APS benefitted from this, when anyone (even you) would have to agree, they've received lots of good publicity as the result. I call that a "benefit". 

  Quote:


 Benefiting from doing great work and giving great customer service is hardly under handed in any way. 
 






 Quote me where I said it was "underhanded". You can't, but you can quote me where I said any good businessman would have done as he did. He exploited a competitor's weakness. Well done, very smart and good for him.

  Quote:


 You didn't say it was, 
 

 Thank you.

  Quote:


 but you certainly had some reason for even bringing it up, and therefor it was implied. 
 

In your mind, maybe. 


 swt61,
 If you have some special hard-on for me, send me a PM and we can keep it off the board.


----------



## mrarroyo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *subtle* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_People are certainly entitled to their opinion, however when they present it with a complete lack of tact they should expect replies such as these.

 I'm not sure how anyone is supposed to take him seriously after labeling everyone in the thread "a bunch of wild monkeys"?_

 

You left the word "like" from the quote. Big difference, also choosing what to reference to emphasize a point of view it IMO not correct.


----------



## kpeezy

Markl your ridiculous out of place smilies are so annoying. I hate you so much 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




?? You're full of it...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Why do you do that?

 -Kyle


----------



## subtle

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mrarroyo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You left the word "like" from the quote. Big difference, also choosing what to reference to emphasize a point of view it IMO not correct._

 

LOL. Yeah that makes a huge difference. Thank you for the informative contribution.


----------



## swt61

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_






 Quote me where I said it was "underhanded"._

 

As I stated you didn't say anything negative at all, you simply implied it. I doubt you have the stones to risk actually saying what's on your mind. Instead you try to disguise your real meaning with "safe" wording that anyone can see through, and that's exactly what you want.
 Then when someone calls you on it you jump back and edit your posts to be even more benign.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Let's not be naive, though. Someone did well out of all this fuss._

 

This doesn't seem like someone patting Alex on the back for his smart business practices.
 Reach into your pants, find your testicles and use them for once! If you have a point to make, make it. Quit skittering around making little character slaps and then trying to cover them up.


----------



## vcoheda

where's the popcorn smiley when you need it.


----------



## markl

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz....

 Like I said, if you want to fight with me, rather than polluting the forums, and dragging the thread OT, why don't you man up and PM me.


----------



## mrarroyo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *subtle* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_LOL. Yeah that makes a huge difference. Thank you for the informative contribution. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Why are you being inflammatory and sarcastic! By choosing specific portions of a post you are attempting to fabricate a point when there isn't one there. So stop it and go back under the rock you crawled out off.


----------



## Hi-Finthen

Oh please, do it in public... And still paitiently awaiting Morph/Jenna to reenter the thread...Popcorn at hand...

 But seriously, I do feel sad for Boilingfrogs long and drawn out situation, having only wanted to improve his R10s and willing to part with $1500 to do so only to be highly disappointed and then here now treated disrespectfully, by some for having gone public...

 Following this debacle due to my interest in headphone rewiring, but not at all sure I want to risk it now, even with my $250 'phones...


----------



## Aura

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Hi-Finthen* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Oh please, do it in public... And still paitiently awaiting Morph/Jenna to reenter the thread...Popcorn at hand...

 But seriously, I do feel sad for Boilingfrogs long and drawn out situation, having only wanted to improve his R10s and willing to part with $1500 to do so only to be highly disappointed and then here now treated disrespectfully, by some for having gone public...

 Following this debacle due to my interest in headphone rewiring, but not at all sure I want to risk it now, even with my $250 'phones..._

 

*takes handful of popcorn*

 I don't think anyone needs to fear recabling; this is just one very extreme (and unfortunate) example/situation.


----------



## Wmcmanus

Since ken36 will be out of service for a while, I thought I'd pop in with a [size=x-large]_*GOOD STUFF!*_[/size] in his honor. I haven't been around much of late, but its nice to see that everyone is getting along so well.


----------



## stevenkelby

Why is everyone so angry with each other? I think we're all upset at this whole mess, looking for someone to blame and taking it out on each other.

 I also don't see anything wrong with what Markl posted. I didn't see it as inflammatory and he did speak the truth, regardless of whether you think he should have or not, he didn't lie or mis-represent anything. I don't know of anyones hidden agendas, but that's how it came across to me.


----------



## kpeezy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *stevenkelby* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why is everyone so angry with each other? I think we're all upset at this whole mess, looking for someone to blame and taking it out on each other.

 I also don't see anything wrong with what Markl posted. I didn't see it as inflammatory and he did speak the truth, regardless of whether you think he should have or not, he didn't lie or mis-represent anything. I don't know of anyones hidden agendas, but that's how it came across to me._

 

Technically, he didn't say anything inflammatory... but since did writing only imply the denotation of the words? There were definitely implied slurs in his posts.

 -Kyle


----------



## stevenkelby

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kpeezy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Technically, he didn't say anything inflammatory... but since did writing only imply the denotation of the words? There were definitely implied slurs in his posts.

 -Kyle_

 

I didn't think so, but fair enough if you did. Who were the slurs against? 

 Alex? 

 What "slur"?

 That this thread is good for business?

 That's a truth, it's undeniable, and it's not a bad thing!

 How can you disagree?

 Do you think this thread is not good for Alex?

 Or that this this thread being good for Alex is a bad thing, in anyones eyes?

 Like I said though, I may not be seeing the whole picture, that's just how I see it. 

 Do you think that Markl posted here to damage ALO or APS? I don't know if or why he would want to, but I can't see how his posts could accomplish that, no matter who reads them.

 I understand that others may have a different interpretation, I just don't understand why.


----------



## Voltron

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *stevenkelby* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I didn't think so, but fair enough if you did. Who were the slurs against? 

 Alex? 

 What "slur"?

 That this thread is good for business?

 That's a truth, it's undeniable, and it's not a bad thing!

 How can you disagree?

 Do you think this thread is not good for Alex?

 Or that this this thread being good for Alex is a bad thing, in anyones eyes?

 Like I said though, I may not be seeing the whole picture, that's just how I see it. 

 Do you think that Markl posted here to damage ALO or APS? I don't know if or why he would want to, but I can't see how his posts could accomplish that, no matter who reads them.

 I understand that others may have a different interpretation, I just don't understand why._

 

Are you referring to the edited post or the original post when you pose these questions? Here is what I believe markl's original post was before he edited and shortened it:

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* 
_ Quote:


 I was the one that asked what Apuresound stands to gain. 
 

 Quote:


 All I can say is that I am truly honored to have my headphones recabled by Alex. 
 

 Quote:


 On the bright side, apuresound has one more future customer in me. 
 


 Bingo! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Let's face it, this thread with its links to Alex's site and showing how he rescued a valuable headphone is a nice advertisement for his services. It's identical to the page Jena put up showing how superior her services are compared to the splice job done by another mod-er. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Now before anyone jumps down my throat, I've used Alex's service which was outstanding, and the work he did (which I saw up close while mod-ing the headphone) was immaculate.

 Let's not be naive, though. Someone does well out of all this fuss. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





_

 

Look, I don't know exactly what markl was doing weighing in on a thread about modding his former favorite cans before he started modding the D5000 for profit and sold his R10s because his new creation made it unnecessary, but he chose to do so. The post above is very obviously a shot at Alex, and as I have already said the last line has obvious negative implications and is really inappropriate. The fact that markl edited it makes this process go on and on, but that is what he said and that is what people reacted to.


----------



## stevenkelby

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Voltron* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ The post above is very obviously a shot at Alex, and as I have already said the last line has obvious negative implications and is really inappropriate._

 


 Thanks for the replyI don't have anything vested in this one way or another, apart from the fact I use Jena wire in my cables, but to clarify my earlier comments, I'll take apart what Markl originally posted, that you quoted.


  Quote:


 Bingo! 
 

Hi is agreeing with what others have said, none of which was a slur IMO.
  Quote:


 Let's face it, this thread with its links to Alex's site and showing how he rescued a valuable headphone is a nice advertisement for his services. 
 

True, is it not? He's not claiming it was an intentional advertisement and I don't think he is implying it was, do you?
  Quote:


 It's identical to the page Jena put up showing how superior her services are compared to the splice job done by another mod-er. 
 

True again, yes? Identical is subjective, but it's the same basic premise. He's just pointing out another fact. I see no problem with that at all, do you? I don't think it's a slur on Alex, or Jena for that matter. Just a fact with no implied negativity. I had thought the same thing myself, but see no problem with the page, or with mentioning it.
  Quote:


 Now before anyone jumps down my throat, I've used Alex's service which was outstanding, and the work he did (which I saw up close while mod-ing the headphone) was immaculate. 
 

Hardly a slur, quite the opposite!

  Quote:


 Let's not be naive, though. Someone does well out of all this fuss. 
 

Another statement of truth. There is a positive side to this, we all get to see more of Alex's excellent work. This will help Alex's reputation, as evidenced by dozens of posts in this thread confirming that fact. Again, I see no problem with this, or with mentioning it.

 Then again, maybe you know something I don't, maybe there's some past history at play I'm not aware of. A lot of people seem to have jumped down Markl's throat for that post, and I'm not sure why? I suspected everyone was just on edge and tensions are high, so people are jumping to conclusions. 

 I could certainly be wrong, maybe Markl is surreptitiously trying to hurt APS. If so, I sure don't see evidence of it, and he has almost certainly failed!

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Voltron* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Look, I don't know exactly what markl was doing weighing in on a thread about modding his former favorite cans before he started modding the D5000 for profit and sold his R10s because his new creation made it unnecessary, but he chose to do so._

 

I don't see a connection and think that's really reaching. Was Markl trying to get himself more business somehow? Can you see how? I cannot. Where people going to read that post and say to themselves, "Wow! Instead of sending my R10 to Alex for a recable, I'll sell them and buy some Markl D5000!" I can't see his post have that intent or effect.

 Anyway, I'm just watching this thread to see how it all turns out out of curiosity, and for the entertainment of seeing Morphs credibility plummet like a stone.

 At least respond to direct questions man, even if it is with "None of your business!"


----------



## markl

Quote:


 The post above is very obviously a shot at Alex, and as I have already said the last line has obvious negative implications and is really inappropriate. 
 

 No, it's a shot at people who who are pretending they can't see the *obvious* benefits for Alex in writing up this whole debacle. I always edit posts, it's the way I post. I changed that last comment so I wouldn't be mis-understood, as I have been by you. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Answer this question for me, and don't dodge it. What do you think Jena hoped to gain by posting this page: jenalabs headphone mod for sony R10

 What is the message of her article exposing the shoddy work of another headphone re-cabler? What is its purpose? Why is that page any different and its obvious purpose any different in your mind than the page Alex created about Jena's botched job?

 All I am saying all I have said is that Alex created a piece a marketing materials for his services that has been picked up here and been wildly successful. That is a neutral statement without a judgement. If you can't see that...

  Quote:


 Look, I don't know exactly what markl was doing weighing in on a thread about modding his former favorite cans before he started modding the D5000 for profit and sold his R10s because his new creation made it unnecessary, but he chose to do so. 
 

 I love it! What business is this thread of yours? Or anyone in the community other than the "victim" and Jena Labs?


----------



## stevenkelby

One more thing, does anyone think that the 


  Quote:


 very fine wire strands, a voice coil wire..... was formed into a slightly protruded loop and had
 been kinked 
 

could have been damaged by Mikhail pushing the wires back into the cups? Seems like a possible cause for the damaged wire in the first place?

 Everything that happened after that, will all come out in the wash I guess.


----------



## furball

Here are the facts,


 1) Jenalabs botched up a re-cabling job.

 2) The botch up was so bad that Jenalabs almost completely ruined a very expensive pair of Sony R10.

 3) The ruined R10 was sent to Alex for salvage.

 4) Alex was able to successfully repair the damage.

 5) And in the process, Alex discovered Jenalabs' atrocious botch up.

 6) Jenalabs' atrocious botch up is exposed.


 These are the facts of the case.


----------



## [AK]Zip

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *stevenkelby* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_One more thing, does anyone think that the 




 could have been damaged by Mikhail pushing the wires back into the cups? Seems like a possible cause for the damaged wire in the first place?

 Everything that happened after that, will all come out in the wash I guess._

 

Not possible. The voice coil wires are in no way attached directly to the stock cable. Not to mention the fact that Mikhail doesn't remove the drivers from the housing when he opens the headphone for recable for the very reason that he isn't willing to risk damage to the headphone.

 The only way of damaging the R10 or any other driver is if you actually have access to it in which case Mikhail did not since the R10 driver is glued in (once again which is why he doesn't remove them).

 Hope this helps explain some.

 Thanks,
 Alex

 EDIT: And it is easy to prove that Mikhail never removed them for the simple fact that he spliced the upgrade cable right into the stock cable. This requires more time and work than soldering directly to the drivers if you have them removed, but since he never removed them it is much easier and safer to splice into the stock cable than remove the R10 drivers from their wooden housing.


----------



## naamanf

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 OK, I'm out, I got no dog in this fight! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_


----------



## kpeezy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No, it's a shot at people who who are pretending they can't see the *obvious* benefits for Alex in writing up this whole debacle. I always edit posts, it's the way I post. I changed that last comment so I wouldn't be mis-understood, as I have been by you. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Answer this question for me, and don't dodge it. What do you think Jena hoped to gain by posting this page: jenalabs headphone mod for sony R10

 What is the message of her article exposing the shoddy work of another headphone re-cabler? What is its purpose? Why is that page any different and its obvious purpose any different in your mind than the page Alex created about Jena's botched job?

 All I am saying all I have said is that Alex created a piece a marketing materials for his services that has been picked up here and been wildly successful. That is a neutral statement without a judgement. If you can't see that...

 I love it! What business is this thread of yours? Or anyone in the community other than the "victim" and Jena Labs?_

 

I think the entire problem here is that the possible business generated for Alex is the only thing you seem to want to talk about. You don't mention that he was asked to create the article or that this is good for the community. You just chime in with "Look at all the business he's generating!" and it comes off as rude. 

 -Kyle


----------



## markl

naamanf, LOL, I'm tryin' man, but like Pacino in Godfather 3-- "They keep pullin' me back in!" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


 I think the entire problem here is that the possible business generated for Alex is the only thing you seem to want to talk about. 
 

 LOL again, oh man, well at least it all ends for me with a good laugh. If people (like you) want to stop questioning me on on this very point, I'll be glad to stop answering about it!


 OK, like I said before if you have any more OT issues with me, keep it off the boards and send me an e-mail. Cheers.


----------



## krmathis

Interesting, for sure!
 Great work by Alex, but not so great work by JenaLab. . .


----------



## kpeezy

I just realized that markl is playing the roll of the troll incredibly well. That's all markl is.

 -Kyle


----------



## stevenkelby

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *[AK]Zip* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Not possible. The voice coil wires are in no way attached directly to the stock cable. Not to mention the fact that Mikhail doesn't remove the drivers from the housing when he opens the headphone for recable for the very reason that he isn't willing to risk damage to the headphone.

 The only way of damaging the R10 or any other driver is if you actually have access to it in which case Mikhail did not since the R10 driver is glued in (once again which is why he doesn't remove them).

 Hope this helps explain some.

 Thanks,
 Alex

 EDIT: And it is easy to prove that Mikhail never removed them for the simple fact that he spliced the upgrade cable right into the stock cable. This requires more time and work than soldering directly to the drivers if you have them removed, but since he never removed them it is much easier and safer to splice into the stock cable than remove the R10 drivers from their wooden housing._

 

Thanks Alex, I get it but want to ask, if you push the cable into the cup, and it bunches up in there, doesn't it get pushed into the same chamber where the voice coil wires live, possibly touching them and pressing into them?

 Or is that a separate compartment?

 I would have thought the cable could touched the voice coil wires as the cable obviously goes to the solder pads on the driver, so it's got to be close?

 Even if there is strain relief in there, could the cable be pushed in past that and contact the voice coil wires?


 I'm not in this thread passing any judgments, who am I to decide the truth, I'm just posting points and questions that others may not have considered, and that I don't fully understand.


----------



## tcp56

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kpeezy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just realized that markl is playing the roll of the troll incredibly well. That's all markl is.

 -Kyle_

 

Look who's Talking


----------



## Kees

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kpeezy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just realized that markl is playing the roll of the troll incredibly well. That's all markl is.

 -Kyle_

 

Trolling is what you are doing right here.


----------



## [AK]Zip

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *stevenkelby* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks Alex, I get it but want to ask, if you push the cable into the cup, and it bunches up in there, doesn't it get pushed into the same chamber where the voice coil wires live, possibly touching them and pressing into them?

 Or is that a separate compartment?

 I would have thought the cable could touched the voice coil wires as the cable obviously goes to the solder pads on the driver, so it's got to be close?

 Even if there is strain relief in there, could the cable be pushed in past that and contact the voice coil wires?


 I'm not in this thread passing any judgments, who am I to decide the truth, I'm just posting points and questions that others may not have considered, and that I don't fully understand. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

You could push up 1-2 feet of wire in there until you can't get any more into that housing and you still will not be able to damage the driver. The voice coils are closed off on the driver itself making it impossible to damage them unless you actually pull them out.

 Have a look at the picture below. Driver on the left was never damaged. Driver on the right is what I repaired.





 The voice coil wires are not visible all in either of the drivers. You can only see the solder pads where the cable of your choosing would solder to.

 Anyone who has ever removed these drivers from the housing know because of how they sit inside the housing it is very easy to damage them if you do not know what you are doing when removing the drivers.

 There are many headphones which I would say are fairly simple to remove drivers from and many don't even need to be removed to recable the headphone, but the R10 is something very different even if just removing the ear pads (they are glued on unlike most all others).

 -Alex-


----------



## stevenkelby

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *[AK]Zip* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_..._

 

Good to know, thanks for the clarification.


----------



## kpeezy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tcp56* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Look who's Talking_

 

Yep, it's me Talking. Have I been unknowingly trolling? Maybe you could show me where so I don't accidentally troll again. Is calling someone a troll trolling?

 -Kyle


----------



## stevenkelby

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Kees* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Trolling is what you are doing right here._

 

Look who's talking 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 So is this post, obviously, I admit it.

 Seriously though, of all kpeezy's posts in this thread, only the first one is anything other than, broadly, "trolling". Only the first one had any content relative to the subject of the thread.

 I'm just saying...

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/search...archid=3105371


----------



## JadeEast

Has there been an official JLabs post in any of this besides the third party posting of the email? 

 The Owners post have been quite well written and seem quite reasonable IMHO. That's pretty impressive considering the cost,subject and the poop thats being flung here.


----------



## tcp56

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kpeezy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yep, it's me Talking. Have I been unknowingly trolling? Maybe you could show me where so I don't accidentally troll again. Is calling someone a troll trolling?

 -Kyle_

 

I new better than to feed it.


----------



## Fing

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No, it's a shot at people who who are pretending they can't see the *obvious* benefits for Alex in writing up this whole debacle. I always edit posts, it's the way I post. 

 All I am saying all I have said is that Alex created a piece a marketing materials for his services that has been picked up here and been wildly successful. That is a neutral statement without a judgement. If you can't see that..._

 

Of course there are benefits for Alex to document his R10 repair. We all know that. I don't think anyone here is going to deny that.

 My personal sense from your pointing this out is like saying, "Look, Alex isn't just being a well-meaning do-gooder by pointing this stuff out. He's gaining from this as well. Lets focus on this aspect too. Isn't it just like JenaLabs when they criticised another person's recable effort. He's just like them really."

 It doesn't matter if you couch your statements saying how happy you are with Alex's work or how great he a person he is. You're basically saying he's doing this to show he's better than the other guy.

 Well, as stated earlier, people do need to know that issues such as these can arise and that he was asked to by the person who owns the R10 to do so. I don't think he would have done so unless he was asked to. Alex probably has many, many stories he could tell about work he's had to look at or repair from other manufacturers and he seems to have stayed strangely silent on those.

 I think his conduct throughout this affair has been remarkably restrained and respectful.

 I'd like to think Alex has done this as much as because he is dedicated to the head-fi community and aims to provide them with the highest level of service that he can, as opposed to doing so through purely mercantile motives.


----------



## stevenkelby

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JadeEast* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Has there been an official JLabs post in any of this besides the third party posting of the email? _

 

No.


----------



## Morph201

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No, it's a shot at people who who are pretending they can't see the *obvious* benefits for Alex in writing up this whole debacle. I always edit posts, it's the way I post. I changed that last comment so I wouldn't be mis-understood, as I have been by you. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Answer this question for me, and don't dodge it. What do you think Jena hoped to gain by posting this page: jenalabs headphone mod for sony R10

 What is the message of her article exposing the shoddy work of another headphone re-cabler? What is its purpose? Why is that page any different and its obvious purpose any different in your mind than the page Alex created about Jena's botched job?

 All I am saying all I have said is that Alex created a piece a marketing materials for his services that has been picked up here and been wildly successful. That is a neutral statement without a judgement. If you can't see that...

 I love it! What business is this thread of yours? Or anyone in the community other than the "victim" and Jena Labs?_

 


 I completely understand where you're are coming from with this. Without the "accused" here to counter any of the attacks, the logical premise of this thread is to not only "warn" potential JL customers, but to increase the fanbase, err, customer base of the real "Knight in Shining Armour".... no this isn't a jab.. but a logical conclusion.


----------



## stevenkelby

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Fing* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think his conduct throughout this affair has been remarkably restrained and respectful._

 

Absolutely. Alex only wrote that page on his site because he was asked to by a customer.


----------



## Morph201

Now as far as my "relationship" with JL or my involvement in this thread, let's just say I like fairness and balance, and it appeared that from the beginning of this thread it was tipped in one direction. 

 I am in no way trying to label Boilingfrog or Alex an opportunist, but in order for me (and I assume some others) to make sense of any of this, I need to see the big picture (i.e. both sides of the coin). Take from it what you will; I will leave it at that.


----------



## kpeezy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I completely understand where you're are coming from with this. Without the "accused" here to counter any of the attacks, the logical premise of this thread is to not only "warn" potential JL customers, but to increase the fanbase, err, customer base of the real "Knight in Shining Armour".... no this isn't a jab.. but a logical conclusion._

 

I see no logic here.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Now as far as my "relationship" with JL or my involvement in this thread, let's just say I like fairness and balance, and it appeared that from the beginning of this thread it was tipped in one direction. 

 I am in no way trying to label Boilingfrog or Alex an opportunist, but in order for me (and I assume some others) to make sense of any of this, I need to see the big picture (i.e. both sides of the coin). Take from it what you will; I will leave it at that._

 

Why even preface it with the "as far as my relationship with JL" portion. The rest of the post doesn't even address that. It kinda sort of implies that you're not involved with Jena Labs but you're just skirting the topic, really.


----------



## JadeEast

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I completely understand where you're are coming from with this. Without the "accused" here to counter any of the attacks, the logical premise of this thread is to not only "warn" potential JL customers, but to increase the fanbase, err, customer base of the real "Knight in Shining Armour".... no this isn't a jab.. but a logical conclusion._

 

I gotta say reading this made me shake my head if you think that you're helping JLabs case in any way.


----------



## Morph201

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JadeEast* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I gotta say reading this made me shake my head if you think that you're helping JLabs case in any way._

 

I'm not trying to further anyone's case... just trying to make sense of it all.. that's all.


----------



## JadeEast

If you want to make sense of it look to the information at hand and not just the possible motives and bias.

Appeal to motive - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## boomana

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JadeEast* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I gotta say reading this made me shake my head if you think that you're helping JLabs case in any way._

 

Yup.


 On a positive note, I have learned from this thread that it's not necessary to be responsible for the work one does, can blame damage on someone else, and can then claim to repair that damage while also refusing to accept responsibility for doing the repairs:  Quote:


 That person
 found the external voice coil wire defect repair job that we had
 performed at no charge. S.W. phoned and confronted us with the
 existence of the repair, and we freely admitted to performing it. We DID
 NOT in anyway admit verbally or in any other manner to any liability for
 the further repair of the defect, nor are we responsible for such
 repair 
 

Hot damn! I, too, can charge big buckaroos for this type of work. Puss N Boom's Audio is now open for business (will be applying for MoT status shortly). Here's my chief technician, Ivan, getting down to business on his first R10 recable. He's truly a cable expert, so business should be booming in a few weeks. 






 I am looking for shills...er...spokespersons, however, so feel free to pm me and we can talk money and set up email exchanges that can be posted up whenever needed. I'm excited. How 'bout you?


----------



## furball

After reading through this thread, this is my impression as well.


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kpeezy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just realized that markl is playing the roll of the troll incredibly well. That's all markl is.

 -Kyle_


----------



## furball

Love the cat! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *boomana* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hot damn! I, too, can charge big buckaroos for this type of work. Puss N Boom's Audio is now open for business (will be applying for MoT status shortly). Here's my chief technician, Ivan, getting down to business on his first R10 recable. He's truly a cable expert, so business should be booming in a few weeks._


----------



## 10068

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* 
_Ok, I have an email from Michael and Jennifer stating, in full, the events as they saw it._

 

I think it's funny that Morph201 has not even attempted to answer why JenaLabs even sent him this email at all. As many others have said already, *sending what is suposedly a detailed documentation of the events and communications to a completely unrelated 3rd party* is pondering and deserves explanation at best, unethical and shady at worst.

 If JenaLabs is anticipating any kind of legal action from BoilingFrog, then their actions would be seen as violation of the victim's right to privacy at best, illegal at worst - obstruction of justice perhaps? I highly doubt that it's legal to provide a fully detailed documentation of events to whomever asks for it, ESPECIALLY over an unsecure and unverfiable medium such as Email. Really baffles me. (*I'm not a lawyer, so feel free to correct my verbiage here.*)

 It's amazing to me that anyone would try to defend or even comprehend JenaLab's actions. They should have provided a full refund and an official apology. Period. Anything less is unacceptable business practices by any business that actually gives a crap about its customers.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *subtle* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_At least her last name is accurate in regards to the crock of $hit she just laid out there._

 

HA! I second that remark 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




*Bottom line*: JenaLabs is apparently saying the customer "should" owe them upwards of $3500.00 USD ... for what? Damaging the customer's equipment in many ways that would require lack of technical aptitude and lack of intelligence, and then proceding to lie about it to the customer's face. Later, full documentation is provided to a (supposedly unrelated) 3rd party under no presence of logical or legal precedent. Nice.


 Lastly: Morph201-- grow some balls and tell us your real opinions instead of dodging everyone's direct questions. Let's start by why you think it's OK (ethically or otherwise) for JenaLabs to send you the email in question, and furthermore why it's OK (ethically or otherwise) for you to post said email on a public internet forum for all to see. I think it's safe to say that Morph's actions speak volumes of his (her?) ethics and morals.

 -DK


----------



## boomana

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *furball* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Love the cat! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

With a handle like "furball" you might be my perfect spokesperson. Here's one last pic of Ivan at work. Puss and Boom's Audio doesn't want folks to think R10s are our only specialty. Just look at the mess that ESW9 cable is in! Here's Ivan reflecting on what he needs to do to fix the problem. Any minute now, he'll go at it with speed and precision no human can match. Plus, he's got six toes. No other company out there can claim such in their technicians.






 And now, I'm outta this thread, as no more can really be said unless JenaLabs responds.


----------



## kool bubba ice

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *stevenkelby* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks for the replyI don't have anything vested in this one way or another, apart from the fact I use Jena wire in my cables, but to clarify my earlier comments, I'll take apart what Markl originally posted, that you quoted.




 Hi is agreeing with what others have said, none of which was a slur IMO.


 True, is it not? He's not claiming it was an intentional advertisement and I don't think he is implying it was, do you?


 True again, yes? Identical is subjective, but it's the same basic premise. He's just pointing out another fact. I see no problem with that at all, do you? I don't think it's a slur on Alex, or Jena for that matter. Just a fact with no implied negativity. I had thought the same thing myself, but see no problem with the page, or with mentioning it.


 Hardly a slur, quite the opposite!



 Another statement of truth. There is a positive side to this, we all get to see more of Alex's excellent work. This will help Alex's reputation, as evidenced by dozens of posts in this thread confirming that fact. Again, I see no problem with this, or with mentioning it.

 Then again, maybe you know something I don't, maybe there's some past history at play I'm not aware of. A lot of people seem to have jumped down Markl's throat for that post, and I'm not sure why? I suspected everyone was just on edge and tensions are high, so people are jumping to conclusions. 

 I could certainly be wrong, maybe Markl is surreptitiously trying to hurt APS. If so, I sure don't see evidence of it, and he has almost certainly failed!



 I don't see a connection and think that's really reaching. *Was Markl trying to get himself more business somehow? Can you see how?* I cannot. Where people going to read that post and say to themselves, "Wow! Instead of sending my R10 to Alex for a recable, I'll sell them and buy some Markl D5000!" I can't see his post have that intent or effect.

 Anyway, I'm just watching this thread to see how it all turns out out of curiosity, and for the entertainment of seeing Morphs credibility plummet like a stone.

 At least respond to direct questions man, even if it is with "None of your business!"_

 

If he was he failed. If I get A pair of denon 5000 I'd rather have Alex 'markl' mod them.. He will do a better anyways. Rather give Alex my money then this sniper. & theres no better way to market a mod you created by stating.. With my mod the D5000 sound soooooooooooooo good I even sold my R10's? Maybe you sold them cause you let Janna get a hold of them..


----------



## jrosenth

Too funny.

 Someone asks if there's been an official response from Jena Labs and Morph201 pops up to answer.

 Morph, forgive me, but I couldn't interpret youre clarification about your relationship with Jena. Are we to understand that you have no relationship with Jena?

 If so, then would you care to explain your earlier comment about your relationship with them is "for me to know an you to find out - winky face" as well as why you're disseminating an email between them and a customer and whether they know that you did that?

 If you're truly not affiliated with them then your previous comment is truly juvenile at best, intentionally misleading at worst. 

 And if you're truly not affiliated with them then them sending that email to you - an "unaffiliated 3rd party" is an extraordinarily poor act on their part and your posting it - either without their permission or without disclosing that they authorized you to post it - is likewise poor and / or misleading.


----------



## 10068

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jrosenth* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Too funny.

 Someone asks if there's been an official response from Jena Labs and Morph201 pops up to answer.

 Morph, forgive me, but I couldn't interpret youre clarification about your relationship with Jena. Are we to understand that you have no relationship with Jena?

 If so, then would you care to explain your earlier comment about your relationship with them is "for me to know an you to find out - winky face" as well as why you're disseminating an email between them and a customer and whether they know that you did that?

 If you're truly not affiliated with them then your previous comment is truly juvenile at best, intentionally misleading at worst. 

 And if you're truly not affiliated with them then them sending that email to you - an "unaffiliated 3rd party" is an extraordinarily poor act on their part and your posting it - either without their permission or without disclosing that they authorized you to post it - is likewise poor and / or misleading._

 

Morph201 probably will not respond to this, because obviously you are not worth his important time.


----------



## furball

I will take the job!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *boomana* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_With a handle like "furball" you might be my perfect spokesperson._


----------



## furball

The conclusion is obvious.

 1) Morph either works for Jena, or
 2) Morph is one of the owners of Jena (in disguise)


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jrosenth* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Too funny.

 Someone asks if there's been an official response from Jena Labs and Morph201 pops up to answer.

 Morph, forgive me, but I couldn't interpret youre clarification about your relationship with Jena. Are we to understand that you have no relationship with Jena?

 If so, then would you care to explain your earlier comment about your relationship with them is "for me to know an you to find out - winky face" as well as why you're disseminating an email between them and a customer and whether they know that you did that?

 If you're truly not affiliated with them then your previous comment is truly juvenile at best, intentionally misleading at worst. 

 And if you're truly not affiliated with them then them sending that email to you - an "unaffiliated 3rd party" is an extraordinarily poor act on their part and your posting it - either without their permission or without disclosing that they authorized you to post it - is likewise poor and / or misleading._


----------



## sacd lover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm not trying to further anyone's case... just trying to make sense of it all.. that's all._

 


 Sure you are. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 You are obviously trying to make Jena Labs case .... and failing miserably. 

 You are also taking a derogatory shot at the company responsible for righting the wrong. Instead of speculation, if you want to know the true purpose of this thread ask the OP. Neither the headphones owner nor the repair person started this thread.

 you say ....

* but to increase the fanbase, err, customer base of the real "Knight in Shining Armour".... *

 ending with ....

* no this isn't a jab... but a logical conclusion. *

 That was definitely a jab and highlights your foolishness if you think we dont recognize your statement as such.


----------



## PITTM

thread cliff notes:

 -jenalabs ruins headphones, claims that cabling(read:ruining your headphones) costs $4500 dollars.

 -alex fixes said headphones and does a great job, presumably for far far less than $4500 dollars.

 -customer asks alex to post what he saw and what he fixed.

 -morph becomes the most obvious shill in the history of the universe, says things like "lets just say...(insert something cryptic here):eyeroll:" and expects us to think he isnt trying to be sly and skirt this issue. 

 -Morph then posts email from Jenalabs about what happened, further ruining Jenalabs credibility.(could you see someone like ray samuels sending some random person an email about another customer to post on head-fi? never in a million years.)

 -markl seems to decide that a customer asking alex to post something on his website and someone else reposting it here is eye rollingly whoring for business.(hint:no.) someone calls markl a troll and is 100% spot on. (note: even if that wasnt what markl meant, it came off that way and there was no reason to make that post at all either way).

 -morph tells us to use logic, says he will tell us his relationship with JL, then rambles for multiple paragraphs, none of which have anything to do with his relationship with JL...or logic.

 -a cat could fix your headphones better than jenalabs.

 did i miss anything? (cue "some user makes crappy cliff notes" addition)


----------



## subtle

No you didn't miss anything at all. That sums it up perfectly.


----------



## indikator

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_....I'm happy for the *poor owner of that R10* that he was able to find a solution...._

 

I like your word my man, 

 lucky for all of us non-owner of R10
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 we are free from this hectic problem of choosing cable, messing up with one


----------



## Asr

Morph201, you clearly should have never entered into this situation. Regardless of your actual relationship with JenaLabs which you have not clarified, at least one of four completely negative logical assumptions can be made about you now:

 1 - You are affiliated with JenaLabs and qualify for Member of the Trade status. This means you are in violation of Head-Fi rules and may have been for some time until now.

 2 - You are not affiliated with JenaLabs yet based on some presently unknown relationship with JenaLabs you acquired an e-mail to post on Head-Fi. If you are not affiliated with JenaLabs, how do we know you aren't full of crap and that e-mail is bogus and completely made-up?

 3 - You are not affiliated with JenaLabs and were given info by them and they gave you permission to post an e-mail that is genuine. First, who are you that they gave you permission to post such an e-mail? You aren't affiliated and they gave you permission? Unless you clarify your position with JenaLabs you leave yourself open to any number of accusations and failure to respond to these accusations only makes you look more suspicious. Second, is JenaLabs so cowardly they can't make their own statement?

 4 - You are not affiliated with JenaLabs and never contacted them and made all this up. This makes you a forum troll the likes of which has not been seen before.

 It would have been better for you if you had not stuck your nose into this situation.


----------



## Morph201

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Asr* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Morph201, you clearly should have never entered into this situation. 
 It would have been better for you if you had not stuck your nose into this situation._

 

I can sum up my response by saying:

 Follow your own advice.


----------



## stevenkelby

AH HA!

 ASR, are you affiliated with JenaLabs then!!!

 (Edit: Morph, you're an) Idiot.


----------



## subtle

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *stevenkelby* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_AH HA!

 ASR, are you affiliated with JenaLabs then!!!

 Idiot._

 

Does human logic work in reverse down under, kind of like the water in the toilets?


----------



## PITTM

morph,

 I am sure you don't have the self awareness to get this, but every time you post you are making yourself and Jena Labs look worse.


----------



## boomana

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I can sum up my response by saying:

 Follow your own advice. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Since you refuse to answer questions and insist on digging deeper holes with every word you post, I'm going to be friendly and advise you to







 that is, unless you're really bent ruining your credibility on this forum for a very long time. In that case, carry on. You're doing an excellent job.


----------



## Asr

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I can sum up my response by saying:

 Follow your own advice. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Unlike other people who say they're done with a thread and don't actually mean it, I will now say that I am done with this thread and I discovered its existence through apuresound.com, as I literally haven't read the Cables forum for a while now.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *stevenkelby* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_AH HA!

 ASR, are you affiliated with JenaLabs then!!!

 Idiot._

 

Since I can't tell who you're responding to and sarcasm can't often be conveyed well on the Internet, I will state for the record that I am not affiliated and have never been a customer, and never will be.


----------



## stevenkelby

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *subtle* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does human logic work in reverse down under, kind of like the water in the toilets?_

 



  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Asr* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Since I can't tell who you're responding to and sarcasm can't often be conveyed well on the Internet, I will state for the record that I am not affiliated and have never been a customer, and never will be._

 

Guys, sorry for not being more clear, but it's pretty obvious to everyone who the idiot is.

 I have nothing but the very highest respect for ASR, as I'm sure everyone does.

 My late night sense of humor never comes across too well, might have to think about that...


----------



## Voltron

Although I have never assumed morph201 to be Jennifer [what a] Crock, it would be particularly ironic if he/she were affiliated with Jena Labs because morph201 bought JP#s' pair of ALO-modded K701s with Jena Labs cable and listened for _a whole hour_ before deciding the sell them! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Now that is funny stuff.

 EDIT: Here is the referenced ad (including misspelling of Jena Labs)

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*****SOLD*****

 After owning K701s for the third time, I finally realize K701s are not my thing! *sigh* 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I received these from jp11801 2 days ago, these are the ALO modded K701s, the same ones in this link http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f10/so...-cable-307555/. They came to me with approximately 500 hours on them, and I put an additional hour...

 The phones go for $650 new, I paid $495, so I would be looking for close to what I paid..

 Send me a PM if interested._


----------



## jinp6301

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *boomana* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_



_

 

thats a cute kitty


----------



## boomana

Thanks for the nasty and sarcastic pm, morph201. Since I can't repost it here due to content, I'll only say, no, I'm not trolling. I actually offered you some good advice about stopping posting so as not to ruin your credibility any further than you've already done. As to Puss N Boom's Audio, just adding some fun into a situation I take quite seriously. I may not be recabling my R10s any day soon, but I'm glad AndrewWOT chose to start this thread, and the owner speak out, so if and when I decide to go that route, I know where not to send them.


----------



## PITTM

oh please god repost the pm. that sounds so awesome. you guys are making my workday a lot more interesting!


----------



## subtle

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jinp6301* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_thats a cute kitty 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

He sure is. I've always loved the orange tabby style farm cats(at least that's what I call them). They have great eyes and personality. I used to have one named Sebastian aka Chubbs.

 I'll have to join in the fun and post up some pictures of my boy Jackson.


----------



## subtle

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *stevenkelby* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Guys, sorry for not being more clear, but it's pretty obvious to everyone who the idiot is.

 I have nothing but the very highest respect for ASR, as I'm sure everyone does.

 My late night sense of humor never comes across too well, might have to think about that..._

 

No problem mate. Thanks for clearing that up.

 I thought you were implying that ASR was the idiot and we both know that is not the case.

 Perhaps its time for waffles and a pillow?


----------



## furball

Please please please repost the PM, we all want to see what Morph said!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 And oh, you have a lovely cat!


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *boomana* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks for the nasty and sarcastic pm, morph201._


----------



## orkney

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *boomana* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*As to Puss N Boom's Audio, just adding some fun into a situation I take quite seriously.* I may not be recabling my R10s any day soon, but I'm glad AndrewWOT chose to start this thread, and the owner speak out, so if and when I decide to go that route, I know where not to send them._

 

WHAT???!!! And here I am packing up my cherished 1-2-3 punch of Oepheus, R10 and L3000 for a nice recable and hot gluing from Ivan the Cable Cat. 

 I note that the Jena of Jena Labs has an affiliation as some species of "technical advisor" to Positive Feedbackmagazine. Here's its editor, David Robinson in a quote one of those threads-without-end on AA:

_
 Jennifer Crock of JENA Labs is a Senior Technical Editor (special emphasis on DIY) for *PFO*, and has been for many years now. As such, she mainly acts as a resource to me when it comes to equipment setup (particularly uni-pivot tonearms/MC mounting), troubleshooting and debugging (e.g., ground loops and equipment failure issues), and technical questions. Anyone who knows her knows her superlative qualifications for those audio tasks_

 Elsewhere, the legendary John Curl describes her as _a very competent engineer_ in a thread about adding an aftermarket polarity switching device to a preamp. So did someone else do the shoddy work on these R10s? How does a "superlatively qualified" technician get it so wrong? And short of the kind of total failure experienced by Boilingfrog, how can the technical novice be sure that her/his modd'd unit is up to snuff?

 This is a depressing thread, happy ending or no.

 best,

 o


----------



## Jon L

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Boilingfrog* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Jennifer recabled these phones first with 18g/22g wire. I complained that they were veiled, muffled, without extension and overly resonant. She responded that I was crazy and that these were in fact the best pair of R10s that she and Ken had ever listened to._

 

Veiled and muffled is exactly how the Jena Labs wire sounds. It's the last cable in my DIY stable I would use for any purpose. 

 What's "crazy" is all those rave reviews of Jena Lab cables...


----------



## Wmcmanus

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *furball* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The conclusion is obvious.

 1) Morph either works for Jena, or
 2) Morph is one of the owners of Jena (in disguise)_

 

Obvious? Why would someone from Jena Labs have over 2,000 posts on Head-Fi? Doesn't seem so obvious to me.

 Maybe he's a customer or friend. That would be fine if he would have just said so to begin with. Everyone has customers and friends who think highly of them and would be willing to help in a time of crisis. 

 But what's "wrong" about it here is that its sneaky, and I hate sneaks! Given that he won't answer the direct questions about his relationship with Jena, we can all assume that he's affiliated with them in some way. In other words, we can safely label him as a shill. 

 They've obviously sent him the correspondence. We know that much. It is probably safe to assume that they're aware that he's posted it here, and that they are following the thread. Maybe it was sent to him at his own urging so that he could help them in terms of damage control. That would allow them to stay out of the thread directly.

 But of course those are all guesses. What is clear to me is that this kind of approach is destined to backfire on a public forum, as it obviously has here.


----------



## sacd lover

Morph201's cat .....


----------



## boomana

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sacd lover* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Morph201's cat .....




_

 

Does the cat work for JenaLabs? That would answer more than a few questions and wrap all mysteries in this thread up quite nicely.


----------



## Voltron

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *boomana* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does the cat work for JenaLabs? That would answer more than a few questions and wrap all mysteries in this thread up quite nicely._

 

Are you going to try to hire it away for Puss N Boom's? If it works at JL, then you know it will be a purrfect fit!


----------



## 909

bf, sorry to hear about this unfortunate and horrendous situation. alex deserves serious props and has firmly established his masterful skills repairing your r10s. if this happened to me, i would be so flipping mad i would have filed a complaint with the better business bureau of Oregon, disputed the charge with my credit card company and probably even filed an action in small claims court to recoup the cost of repair. 

 are there any other head-fiers that have had their r10s cabled by jenalabs? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 word of this botched job and their poor customer service certainly has the potential to spread like a cancer to most, if not all, the audio forums on the net and i get this sick feeling this isn't their first time... even in damage control (or lack of it) jenalabs is reaffirming they are not a good company to do business with in my book--sad, but true.


----------



## sacd lover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *boomana* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does the cat work for JenaLabs? That would answer more than a few questions and wrap all mysteries in this thread up quite nicely._

 

 No .... after reading Morph's embarrassing posts he did not wish to be indentified.


----------



## Morph201

Look, this whole thread (whether malicious in intent or otherwise) is turning into a big train wreck. I for one NEVER volunteered to be the spokesperson for anyone, but merely asked to hear both sides before casting judgement. 

 NOW I'm the brunt of attacks here and on that other site... head-kase??? Accused of "stirring the pot"? "Being a screwkin gimp with good taste in beer"??

 This thread has sadly sunk to a new low .. I'm through with this thread, we're obviously at a point of beating a dead dog with a broken stick. 

 Have at it...


----------



## Fungi

And still the question of why JL sent you details of the transactions is avoided. Good stuff!


----------



## dan_can

No more Jena labs for me. You know where I'm getting my phone(s) re-cabled.


----------



## sacd lover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Look, this whole thread (whether malicious in intent or otherwise) is turning into a big train wreck. I for one NEVER volunteered to be the spokesperson for anyone, but merely asked to hear both sides before casting judgement. 

 NOW I'm the brunt of attacks here and on that other site... head-kase??? Accused of "stirring the pot"? "Being a screwkin gimp with good taste in beer"??

 This thread has sadly sunk to a new low .. I'm through with this thread, we're obviously at a point of beating a dead dog with a broken stick. 

 Have at it..._

 

Please 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 .... you were very clearly interjected yourself as JL's spokesperson from the very begining. Moreover, once again you allude to the thread being a malicious atack on Jena Labs when the only victim was the the guy who paid $1000 for Jena Labs to wreck his irreplaceable headphones.

 Morph201's cat once again locates and dons the bag ....


----------



## Hi-Finthen

[size=x-large] GOOD STUFF[/size]


----------



## boomana

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Look, this whole thread (whether malicious in intent or otherwise) is turning into a big train wreck. I for one NEVER volunteered to be the spokesperson for anyone, but merely asked to hear both sides before casting judgement. 

 NOW I'm the brunt of attacks here and on that other site... head-kase??? Accused of "stirring the pot"? "Being a screwkin gimp with good taste in beer"??

 This thread has sadly sunk to a new low .. I'm through with this thread, we're obviously at a point of beating a dead dog with a broken stick. 

 Have at it..._

 

Don't play victim. You did volunteer by posting up emails JenaLabs sent you about a situation that didn't involve you. You refuse to answer questions about why Jena would email an "uninvolved" 3rd party info on a horrible dispute with a customer that doesn't even know you. You refuse to answer whether or not you had permission to post the information. You say things like "It is my business," and post little winkies instead. You send me an uncalled for pm, and then complain about being attacked on a site you were banned from posting on (a nearly impossible feat there) for basically your lack of judgment and attacks on members there. Bah. The cat is in the bag!


----------



## subtle

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Fungi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_And still the question of why JL sent you details of the transactions is avoided. Good stuff!_

 

Precisely. Keep tap dancing there Morph!


----------



## 909

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Look, this whole thread (whether malicious in intent or otherwise) is turning into a big train wreck. _

 

 so says the train conductor


----------



## milkpowder

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *boomana* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Don't play victim. You did volunteer by posting up emails JenaLabs sent you about a situation that didn't involve you. You refuse to answer questions about why Jena would email an "uninvolved" 3rd party info on a horrible dispute with a customer that doesn't even know you. You refuse to answer whether or not you had permission to post the information. You say things like "It is my business," and post little winkies instead. You send me an uncalled for pm, and then complain about being attacked on a site you were banned from posting on *(a nearly impossible feat there) *for basically your lack of judgment and attacks on members there. Bah. The cat is in the bag!_

 






 But otherwise x2.


----------



## Uncle Erik

Drama, comedy, mystery... This thread delivers! How about Head-Fi The Musical?

 A cat shreds a headphone cable, touching off intrigue, exposing double agents, mysterious secrets, skin effect, and so on. There would be a magic garden hose, too.


----------



## 2deadeyes

As always, all the real action seems to take place here in the cable forum.


----------



## feverfive

[crickets chirping] Still no response from anyone admitting they're w/ JenaLabs...how odd... If the claims being made against Jena were untrue, you'd think Jena would be in here refuting things at least...


----------



## Hi-Finthen

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Uncle Erik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Drama, comedy, mystery... This thread delivers! How about Head-Fi The Musical?

 A cat shreds a headphone cable, touching off intrigue, exposing double agents, mysterious secrets, skin effect, and so on. There would be a magic garden hose, too._

 

'Head-Fi, The Mus-ical / Comedy", I like it Unc...lol

 Perhaps as a finale, warterboarding "Morph The Cat" till the truth is told...LOL

 All that aside, seriously; What I know of morph on the boards and by PMs, is that he does like to stir it up, as a contrarian, just for his own entertainment and jollies; But this time he got involved a bit over his head and may have done both himself and JL more harm than good, particularly without his considering the real victim here in all of this, boilingfrog(the imagery of that moniker seems unfortunately appropo in this case).


----------



## sacd lover

After his latest post .... Morph201's other cat reacts.


----------



## Morph201

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Hi-Finthen* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_'Head-Fi, The Mus-ical / Comedy", I like it Unc...lol

 Perhaps as a finale, warterboarding "Morph The Cat" till the truth is told...LOL

 All that aside, seriously; What I know of morph on the boards and by PMs, is that he does like to stir it up, as a contrarian, just for his own entertainment and jollies; But this time he got involved a bit over his head and may have done both himself and JL more harm than good, particularly without his considering the real victim here in all of this, boilingfrog(the imagery of that moniker seems unfortunately appropo in this case)._

 

Contrary to what most may think, I was not trying to "stir" anything up, I merely wanted to view both sides with an objective eye. I'm not trying to prove a point one way or the other, reread most of my posts. I admit, some of the silly things that were said did get to me, for a minute, but calmer heads usually prevail and at this point people are going to think whatever they want due to their own biases. If I did JL an injustice by trying to present their side, then I apologize, I take full responsibility for that. 

 I already expressed my view regarding BoilingFrogs situation.

 Boomana: I'm not exactly sure what you're issue is with me (???)... I'm not sure what I've done to make you so hostile towards me. Get to know me, you might find out that I'm a decent person.


----------



## subtle

You're still tap dancing around the only question that really needs answering.

 Gregory Hines would have been proud.


----------



## tk3

The best thing to come out of this topic were the cat pictures. 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Contrary to what most may think, I was not trying to "stir" anything up, I merely wanted to view both sides with an objective eye. I'm not trying to prove a point one way or the other, reread most of my posts. I admit, some of the silly things that were said did get to me, for a minute, but calmer heads usually prevail and at this point people are going to think whatever they want due to their own biases. If I did JL an injustice by trying to present their side, then I apologize, I take full responsibility for that. 

 I already expressed my view regarding BoilingFrogs situation.

 Boomana: I'm not exactly sure what you're issue is with me (???)... I'm not sure what I've done to make you so hostile towards me. Get to know me, you might find out that I'm a decent person. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

If you really don't know why people are attacking you, then I'm just baffled.
 Either you're insanely naive or just playing the role of the "innocent troll" and hope that people start sympathizing with you.
 Seriously, you've been asked a million times what your relationship to JL is, why don't you just answer the question and people might get off your back.


----------



## sacd lover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Contrary to what most may think, I was not trying to "stir" anything up, I merely wanted to view both sides with an objective eye. I'm not trying to prove a point one way or the other, reread most of my posts. I admit, some of the silly things that were said did get to me, for a minute, but calmer heads usually prevail and at this point people are going to think whatever they want due to their own biases. If I did JL an injustice by trying to present their side, then I apologize, I take full responsibility for that. 

 I already expressed my view regarding BoilingFrogs situation.

 Boomana: I'm not exactly sure what you're issue is with me (???)... I'm not sure what I've done to make you so hostile towards me. Get to know me, you might find out that I'm a decent person. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 


 Yes .... I have little doubt you did not expect or welcome the reaction you received. But, you clearly wanted to spin the issue to make the innocent injured party the fall guy. 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ I also find it VERY hard to believe that a reputable company such as JenaLabs would conduct themselves in a less than professional mannner. JenaLabs deals with equipment worth a lot more than R10s, do you honestly think they would risk their name for a pair of headphones??

 If what JenaLabs has told me is true it's truly SICKENING that someone would try to damage their reputation in such a manner!!_

 

So much for your objectivity, there was no objectivity in your posts at all .... made worse by later posts containing subtle shots at the one person who salvaged the situation.

 After reading your post of Jena Labs response, boiligfrogs cat best expressed what Jena Labs can do with their pricing, recables and customer service ....


----------



## Elephas

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_at this point people are going to think whatever they want due to their own biases_

 

I had no bias either pro or con towards JenaLabs or you before this thread.

 Now I'm biased against JenaLabs and you.


----------



## thrice




----------



## n_maher




----------



## PITTM

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Contrary to what most may think, I was not trying to "stir" anything up, I merely wanted to view both sides with an objective eye. I'm not trying to prove a point one way or the other, reread most of my posts. I admit, some of the silly things that were said did get to me, for a minute, but calmer heads usually prevail and at this point people are going to think whatever they want due to their own biases. If I did JL an injustice by trying to present their side, then I apologize, I take full responsibility for that._

 

WHY
 DID
 JENALABS
 SEND
 YOU
 AN
 EMAIL
 ABOUT
 A
 CUSTOMER
 WHO
 WAS
 NOT
 YOU
 ?

 this alone means i would never buy from them. Before you posted I was ready to be unbiased and objective, but now that you she sent you information about another customer for you to repost it makes you the opposite of objective and is beyond unprofessional on JL's part.


----------



## Voltron

This seems funny somehow, but I am not sure why.


----------



## Fing

Superb....


----------



## manaox2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Voltron* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_





 This seems funny somehow, but I am not sure why._

 

Maybe because Morph, like this cat, has gone through the pose to stick his head up his own bottom?

 I hate getting involved in this, even this post, I'm breaking my cardinal rule here. My advise would be full disclosure by all parties as this is going nowhere fast, however entertaining as it may be. Its certainly not going to worsen anyones reputation unless the general consensus has it completely wrong some how, which I doubt.


----------



## LostOne.TR

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *2deadeyes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_As always, all the real action seems to take place here in the cable forum._

 

Seriously. Love the pictures by the way. Got me laughing like crazy.


----------



## swt61

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I completely understand where you're are coming from with this. Without the "accused" here to counter any of the attacks, the logical premise of this thread is to not only "warn" potential JL customers, but to increase the fanbase, err, customer base of the real "Knight in Shining Armour".... no this isn't a jab.. but a logical conclusion._

 

It seems to be quite apparent to everyone but you that you are the voice of the accused. 

 1) JenaLabs sends you an email completely laying out their version of this case, be they fantasy or be they fact. Why? This is not the kind of information any business owner should share with just a customer that happened to email to inquire about said case. If it looks like a fish and smells like a fish...

 2) After posting that you don't feel right about posting said email, because you felt JL should be the ones telling their version (a point with which I openly agreed) you out of the Blue post the email anyway. ???

 3) You keep making little encrypted hints that you have some importance here, and keep letting us know like a little kid with a secret that you'll keep those reasons to yourself. 

 You can't have it both ways try as you might.


----------



## vcoheda

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thrice* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_



_

 


 good one. haven't seen this before.


----------



## W.T.

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PITTM* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_oh please god repost the pm. that sounds so awesome. you guys are making my workday a lot more interesting!_

 

No Joke. There goes my productivity

 You know - i think we are all wrong about Morph.
 He is not a customer, not a troll, not Jena.... i think i have unravelled the mystery.

_Morph is Alex from APureSound. _ Why?
 1. Alex felt so bad for Jenalabs being completely decimated, that he just HAD to have at least 1 "person" side with their story
 2. Alex wanted to play instegator and provide a way for us to bash Jenalabs and promote his business. (god he is so stingy!) 
 3. Alex wanted to find a way for this thread to be bumped/replied and viewed so many times by us bashing "morph" - and boy did he do it. Jackpot APS - what a money hungry fiend!

 Alex - you sir are pure marketing genious, and a grand comedian to boot. I havent had this much fun reading a head-fi thread in.... ever. Since you are so Scrooge McDuck like, Do you charge entrance fees to see your vault of money? i have always dreamed of swimming through a vault full of gold coins and money!)

 Discuss...
_*(this is sarcasm to a highest degree if you didnt pick up on it)*_

 Lets all just say what we now realize: That, by jove, you have to be a braindead twit with common sense of lowest degree to even CONSIDER buying/sending anything from/to Jenalabs now. (eg, the kind of person who's definition of a "good time" involves a fork and a wall outlet). I wouldnt even bother buying her strands of wire to strangle anyone with. (god knows it would break, and i'd look so un-stylish doing it. All the cool kids are using V3 cables from APS nowadays anyways)

 I dont think anyone has bothered to say this either:

 Jenalabs R10 recable - ~$1500
 APS recable - ~$425 (for a 7 foot cable, plug, and super nylon)

 God knows Alex stands by his work that is: 1. never botched, 2. never breaks, 3. looks, feels, and sounds damn amazing, and 4. He stands by his work and customers.

 Jena - you get 1. Puss N Boom's quality work, 2. the It-Was-Broken-Before-They-Got-Here, or the It-Wasnt-Us, or the It-Must-Be-Your-Ears-...-No-It-Doesnt-Matter-That-You-Own-Another-Pair-Of-R10s, 3. best described as the "i wouldnt touch the 10 foot pole that wouldnt touch it", and 4. You get return policy papers... a week later... and in the snailmail

 I dont know how anyone has a right to point a finger at Alex/APS for doing anything WRONG or immoral. This man's hands are amazing, and anything he touches TURNS TO GOLD (high purity copper cored silver wire covered in two layers of Teflon in the case of wires/cables). I've seen him do amazing projects - my W3000's being one, building and troubleshooting a Blue Hawaii another, and god knows the list goes on - but Just look at the recovered R10's. I wish the doctors under my health insurance were as reliable in their (mal)practice... and as fair in pricing! 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Look, this whole thread (whether malicious in intent or otherwise) is turning into a big train wreck._

 

I strongly disagree Sir, *FULL STEAM AHEAD!*


 ~*WT*~


----------



## tyrion

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Contrary to what most may think, I was not trying to "stir" anything up, I merely wanted to view both sides with an objective eye. I'm not trying to prove a point one way or the other, reread most of my posts. I admit, some of the silly things that were said did get to me, for a minute, but calmer heads usually prevail and at this point people are going to think whatever they want due to their own biases. If I did JL an injustice by trying to present their side, then I apologize, I take full responsibility for that. 

 I already expressed my view regarding BoilingFrogs situation.

 Boomana: I'm not exactly sure what you're issue is with me (???)... I'm not sure what I've done to make you so hostile towards me. Get to know me, you might find out that I'm a decent person. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

I think that many members that have posted relative to your position in this thread did so because you came out on JL side when you took the position that people should be open minded. You contacted JL for some reason but didn't contact the OP. JL then sends you, a presumably disinterested party, a long email about the situation. I'm sorry, but like others, I find that to be more than just suspicious. I find it difficult to believe a company, like JL, with a difficult public relations problem would send that email to a disinterested third party. Again, presumably, you had nothing to do with this transaction. The position you have taken in this thread taken together with the email from JL creates an appearance of a relationship with JL that taints anything you say in their support.


----------



## smeggy

You know, in certain ‘older’ civilized cultures, when men failed as entirely as you have, they would throw themselves on their swords...


----------



## FooTemps

So who wants to take 1 week ban bet on Morph201 never telling us his relation to jenalabs and his real reasoning behind all of this?

 I'll take a 1 week ban from head-fi if he says it. Seriously. Wmcmanus, if morph201 admits anything, ban me for a week!


----------



## Hi-Finthen

Isn't this horse dead yet?

 (BTW, I do only mean about Morph,; So far as JL, well, pile on~)lol


----------



## sacd lover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Hi-Finthen* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Isn't this horse dead yet?_

 

probably not ....


----------



## 909

my current speculative read on jenalabs is they are willing to write off the entire headphone community and completely ignore the situation because our little sect and the even smaller exclusive r10 owners that might consider a re-cable job and potentially choose them represents such a minuscule piece of their business it just isn't worth it to them. if this debacle spread to say audiogon, audioasylum, stevehoffman, etc., and any one of those sites allowed it to remain indefinitely or gave the outward appearance it would then it is likely jenalabs might step up and say something. yet if it's anything like their email they would just continue to dig their own grave.


----------



## jrosenth

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PITTM* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_thread cliff notes:

 -jenalabs ruins headphones, claims that cabling(read:ruining your headphones) costs $4500 dollars.

 -alex fixes said headphones and does a great job, presumably for far far less than $4500 dollars.

 -customer asks alex to post what he saw and what he fixed.

 -morph becomes the most obvious shill in the history of the universe, says things like "lets just say...(insert something cryptic here):eyeroll:" and expects us to think he isnt trying to be sly and skirt this issue. 

 -Morph then posts email from Jenalabs about what happened, further ruining Jenalabs credibility.(could you see someone like ray samuels sending some random person an email about another customer to post on head-fi? never in a million years.)

 -markl seems to decide that a customer asking alex to post something on his website and someone else reposting it here is eye rollingly whoring for business.(hint:no.) someone calls markl a troll and is 100% spot on. (note: even if that wasnt what markl meant, it came off that way and there was no reason to make that post at all either way).

 -morph tells us to use logic, says he will tell us his relationship with JL, then rambles for multiple paragraphs, none of which have anything to do with his relationship with JL...or logic.

 -a cat could fix your headphones better than jenalabs.

 did i miss anything? (cue "some user makes crappy cliff notes" addition)_

 

Missed one thing:

 Ken of AOL writes a HUGE post extolling the virtues of the the very pair pair of cans that Jena screwed up. Their poor sound quality was obviously noticeable to Alex yet inspired Ken to do this


----------



## Morph201

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jrosenth* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ken of AOL writes a HUGE post extolling the virtues of the the very pair pair of cans that Jena screwed up. Their poor sound quality was obviously noticeable to Alex yet inspired Ken to do this_

 

Strange huh? See, 2+2 doesn't equal 5.... There are a lot of questions and holes in this, KB has a sterling reputation here, and I doubt he would perpetrate a fraud... highly doubt it.


----------



## Fungi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Strange huh? See, 2+2 doesn't equal 5.... There are a lot of questions and holes in this, KB has a sterling reputation here, and I doubt he would perpetrate a fraud... highly doubt it._

 

How many times are you going to "leave" before actually doing it?


----------



## Fing

Maybe the dilithium crystals still had a charge, before they felt the polarity needed to be reversed...


----------



## jrosenth

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Strange huh? See, 2+2 doesn't equal 5.... There are a lot of questions and holes in this, KB has a sterling reputation here, and I doubt he would perpetrate a fraud... highly doubt it._

 

Here's my take on that:

 Ken thinks said headphones sound great

 Alex and their owner think they sound like doo doo

 Alex opens them up and behold they are all messed up and judging from the pictures they look like they sound like doo doo

 Maybe Ken just hadn't heard the stock cans to compare them to?

 -

 edit - just read Ken's monster post on it and I think he mentioned he compared them to the stock there


----------



## Hi-Finthen

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jrosenth* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Missed one thing:

 Ken of AOL writes a HUGE post extolling the virtues of the the very pair pair of cans that Jena screwed up. Their poor sound quality was obviously noticeable to Alex yet inspired Ken to do this_

 

Leads me to seriously question even more so, this whole "Night & Day" difference any cable makes, to any phone!


----------



## Morph201

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Fing* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Maybe the dilithium crystals still had a charge, before they felt the polarity needed to be reversed..._

 

LOL! Trekkie are we? Hope your not living in your parents basement still...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (kidding of course)


----------



## Morph201

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jrosenth* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Here's my take on that:

 Ken thinks said headphones sound great

 Alex and their owner think they sound like doo doo

 Alex opens them up and behold they are all messed up and judging from the pictures they look like they sound like doo doo

 Maybe Ken just hadn't heard the stock cans to compare them to?

 -

 edit - just read Ken's monster post on it and I think he mentioned he compared them to the stock there_

 

Bingo! Ken has A LOT of experience regarding headphones and recable jobs, dont think he would make a newbie mistake like that! 

 Ironic, one of the MOTs on this site (won't mention names) that soooo revered and at least TWO cables I purchased from him had channel dropouts! Both interconnects AND headphone cable! Wonder how shoddy his soldering was!

 I also find it ironic how you guys b****h and b***h about their cable prices and how it's all done with pixie dust! So, who do we go after next? Nordost? TARA Labs? Stealth Indra makers? Sheesh!


----------



## jrosenth

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Bingo! Ken has A LOT of experience regarding headphones and recable jobs, dont think he would make a newbie mistake like that!_

 

Honestly? I don't know. But that's a great question.


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ironic, one of the MOTs on this site (won't mention names) that soooo revered and at least TWO cables I purchased from him had channel dropouts! Both interconnects AND headphone cable! Wonder how shoddy his soldering was!_

 

Um, wow. Just, wow.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I also find it ironic how you guys b****h and b***h about their cable prices and how it's all done with pixie dust! So, who do we go after next? Nordost? TARA Labs? Stealth Indra makers? Sheesh!_

 

If one of them butchered a can like that and treated a customer like that and, ehm, presumably send out the account via email to an "unrelated 3rd party," then, yah.


----------



## PITTM

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I also find it ironic how you guys b****h and b***h about their cable prices and how it's all done with pixie dust! So, who do we go after next? Nordost? TARA Labs? Stealth Indra makers? Sheesh!_

 

uhhh last i checked none of those companies ruined a set of headphones, then tried to tell the user the work they did was worth $4500 dollars, then have some complete retard come to head-fi to shill for them about it. Also, to be fair, people give those companies stick about their prices all the time.


----------



## Morph201

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PITTM* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_uhhh last i checked none of those companies ruined a set of headphones, then tried to tell the user the work they did was worth $4500 dollars, then have some complete retard come to head-fi to shill for them about it. Also, to be fair, people give those companies stick about their prices all the time._

 

Yeah, I'm the dumb shill, the one asking questions TRYING to find out an answer! I'm very familiar with the R10s, at least enough to know it would be very traumatic having a 6k can butchered! I would be MORE than upset..


----------



## PITTM

Would it make you feel any better if someone probably associated with the company that butchered them was posting personal emails about you from someone within the company? How about having that same person who is "trying to find out an answer" be way more biased than anyone else in the thread? I'm sure you'd be thrilled.


----------



## gp_hebert

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yeah, I'm the dumb shill, the one asking questions TRYING to find out an answer!_

 

You should start by giving answers about yourself and your special "relation" with JenaLabs...


----------



## 10068

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yeah, I'm the dumb shill, the one asking questions TRYING to find out an answer! I'm very familiar with the R10s, at least enough to know it would be very traumatic having a 6k can butchered! I would be MORE than upset.._

 

You don't need to find an answer. You need to *provide *answers:

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/4132639-post208.html

 Anyways, i'm out of this thread. It was fun while it lasted 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Thanks to all who provided intelligent viewpoints and my best wishes to BoilingFrog.

 markl and Morph201 are now blocked for me.
 -DK


----------



## naamanf

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_**As the World Turns.. sheesh 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I have been in contact with the owner(s) of JenaLabs, and I would advise everyone to at least hear BOTH sides of the story and not run to the assumption that JenaLabs is at total fault. I sympathize with the R10 owner if everything he said is completely accurate, but I also find it VERY hard to believe that a reputable company such as JenaLabs would conduct themselves in a less than professional mannner. JenaLabs deals with equipment worth a lot more than R10s, do you honestly think they would risk their name for a pair of headphones??

 If what JenaLabs has told me is true it's truly SICKENING that someone would try to damage their reputation in such a manner!!_

 

Let's just re-quote your first post. Keep in mind this was posted 3.5 hours after the thread was created. So someone who supposedly has no affiliation with JenaLabs has their side of the story with in three hours. You felt so compelled to keep this thread "fair and balanced" that the first thing you did after seeing is was get on the bat phone and call JenaLabs? And they told the entire story(and it does seem to be a story) to a complete stranger? And you were able to determine within the three hours that they were not at fault?


----------



## Voltron

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jrosenth* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Missed one thing:

 Ken of AOL writes a HUGE post extolling the virtues of the the very pair pair of cans that Jena screwed up. Their poor sound quality was obviously noticeable to Alex yet inspired Ken to do this_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jrosenth* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Here's my take on that:

 Ken thinks said headphones sound great

 Alex and their owner think they sound like doo doo

 Alex opens them up and behold they are all messed up and judging from the pictures they look like they sound like doo doo

 Maybe Ken just hadn't heard the stock cans to compare them to?

 -

 edit - just read Ken's monster post on it and I think he mentioned he compared them to the stock there_

 

Let's be clear, this is the extent of what Ken had to say about the R10s he heard at JL:

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *KB* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 *snip*

 The stock R10s - Yeah there they are, so smooth liquid and airy. Detail was just pouring out like someone removed the cotton from some of my best headphones, beautiful. Then the recabled R10s, yeah its was stunning and like a totally different headphone all together. The most impact from a headphone cable I have ever heard and easy the best headphone I have ever experienced. The biggest thing I noticed was the sheer weight and girth of the sound, yet will no loss of detail on the delicate sonics. The light lace like finger of the music so airy and expansive. A beautiful tight as hell bottom end, stunning. My jaw was on the table and she was just laughing at me with a knowing nod. I took them off and said you have got to be kidding, did you do something to the track or do something with the CD player? Of course she is just pointing to the cable. Still not believing I had her switch the phones again, still amazed I grabbed my iMod – LE-Vcap dock – LISA3 amp and qued up a track on my system to A/B the 2 phones. Yep still there and still was the huge difference. 

 *snip*

 So at the end of the day I was able to audition 3 R10s, one stock, one recabled with the UW to a balanced XLR with a 1/4 adaptor and one with the same UW cable to a 1/4 plug that was just glorious. The R10 is not my cup of tea size wise, me being a freak for anything portable and this is why I was so in love with the Edition9s. But for sheer sound quality, wow the recabled R10s was a real treat!

 I know that there will be nay sayers who will read this and go on with negativity, yeah hes in the business and has his motives for saying this for profit, your wanting to help JennaLabs out, I want to sell snake oil, I am full of poopoo, etc..and what ever. But the fact is that the cable does make a huge difference, is it for everyone, hell no. Moreover I really do not want to do a lot of headphone work because its not really that profitable, and takes a great deal of time.

 *See ToneAudio Edition 10 and 10 
Tone Audio Online - Download Tone Magazine

 Note: None of the R10s are the property of JenaLabs and they have none for sale.

 Ken @ ALO_

 

I assume the 1/4 terminated and stock models were BoilingFrog's and Ken does not even indicate which ones he is "reviewing" with his minimal comments about sound. However, I think that it is clear that Ken heard the R10s after the _first_ re-cable effort. While it is true that BF said that "they were veiled, muffled, without extension and overly resonant," it was not until the second JL re-cable effort that the real damage was done. BF said in his post #62 above that Jennifer told him the voice coil was torn during the second effort: "When I asked how the voice coil tore she said it was very fragile and it occurred on the second cable change. She states she had glued it back. I told her it wasn't done properly and hence the problems with the sound." 

 So, maybe Ken did not hear the same limitations that BF noted after the first re-cable, but BF has owned two pairs for some time and Ken certainly had far less R10 experience at that time. Anybody could hear something different between the two cans, according to ALL sources, but I don't think anybody should accuse Ken of doing anything wrong by writing up his thoughts. I also don't think it is appropriate to suggest that he intentionally misstated things because I don't believe there is any indication of that at all. Indeed, he heard a stock pair, the damaged pair and another JL re-cabled pair on that same day and his impressions are very limited although positive. As I and others have said earlier in the thread, there is no need to drag Ken into this at all.

 I would still love to hear from JenaLabs so that we know their side of the story directly and without "spokespersons" in the middle. I am a little shocked that they have not done so already.


----------



## jrosenth

Totally agree with you Volton and in no way mean that Ken misrepresented what he heard and it was bad to write up a review of it.

 It does surprise me that, as best I can tell, he heard a stock version and the Jena version after the first recabling and thought they sounded better whereas the owner seems to think they sounded worse.

 Maybe different ears. Maybe I'm mixing up the chronology.

 It is somewhat relevant in that Jena used him, assuming Morph's email is real, as an appeal to authority that they did a good job whereas the owner was complaining about the sound, thereby accusing the owner of being problematic.

 In any case it would be great to have Jena clear things up.


----------



## 909

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yeah, I'm the dumb shill..._

 

point taken plus you're acting like your own worst enemy.


----------



## sacd lover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yeah, I'm the dumb shill, the one asking questions TRYING to find out an answer!_


----------



## 909

beat you to it, Earl.


----------



## Morph201

Obviously you two lack the grey matter to maintain some type of decorum. I'll say a prayer for you tonight!

 Peace!


----------



## sacd lover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Obviously you two lack the grey matter to maintain some type of decorum. I'll say a prayer for you tonight!

 Peace!_

 

 We simply agreed with you. 

 You have it all wrong ....


----------



## KB

AAAAHHHHhhhhhh!!

 Oh my… I was really hoping to not get dragged into this. But I think I should weigh in on this mess.

 First of all I would like to say how sad all this makes me feel, for everyone. We should all be listening to music or enjoying springtime. Also I do not like to engage on tearing down or saying ill things about anyone, especially another vendor. I respect the people in the trade. This is a extremely competitive business but I believe in karma and despite having competing vendors that might not like me or my work I still would not say ill of them or post photos of others’ work on my forum or webpage. If you know me you know I am not confrontational, at all.

 I did listen to the involved R10s (infamous R10s see them on my Avatar! And I should do something about that pic eh?) Keep in mind I heard the R10s after the first re-cable, and not the subsequent re-cable. So yeah, Voltron, you were spot on, as well as to the fact that I do not have much exp with the R10. I wish I owned a pair, though, but at the time of the audition it was only the 3rd time I had heard a R10. I did compare them with a stock R10 and clearly they were much better IMO than stock. I did very much like the way they sounded. Now apparently what happened is that the owner received the same phone and hated the sound, called them muddy etc… Fine by me. I disagree with friends of mine who like this phone over that one, and everyone is going to have differing preferences. We are all different and will all see and hear things different. I sincerely did like the phones and stick by my assessment. I have not edited my mini review and do not intend to.

 I have never had any problem with the folks are JenaLabs. They have always been kind to me and again I feel bad about this whole thing. Perhaps JL made some unwise stances here and, as unfortunate as it would have been, should have cut her losses. I have stated that I would never recable a R10 and, well, for good reason. You simply cannot get replacement drivers for them and therefore I would never go there. I have not talked to Jennifer about this firestorm and only found out about this thread when I got a call from Jude yesterday. I do remember her saying that the R10 in question was recabled previously before she received them, and that the customer was now wanting a refund because they went bad. I cannot weigh in for JL. Only they can do this. 

 I think the JL wire is wonderful stuff, sound-wise. I see some people saying otherwise and again I think that in a forum you should be able to post your individual opinions, good or bad. I also think that the product should speak to you and speak for itself. I invite all to my table at the CanJam and you can draw your own conclusions on the wire, as I will have 4 or 5 modded headphone with the JL wire.

 Again I feel bad for all folks involved. 

 Ken

 PS: Volron thanks for the stick up, remind me to buy you a margarita next week!


----------



## W.T.

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *KB* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I did listen to the involved R10s (infamous R10s see them on my Avatar! And I should do something about that pic eh?) Keep in mind I heard the R10s after the first re-cable, and not the subsequent re-cable. So yeah, Voltron, you were spot on, as well as to the fact that *I do not have much exp with the R10. I wish I owned a pair, though, but at the time of the audition it was only the 3rd time I had heard a R10. I did compare them with a stock R10 and clearly they were much better IMO than stock. I did very much like the way they sounded.*_

 

Its great to hear that fair assessment and honest answer! I agree that a small audition may not be enough to assess something like this as you have honestly explained you were not able to spend as much time with them as you would have apparently liked to 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. i think i speak as a whole that we appreciate the honest answer and you sticking to your words!

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *KB* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Now apparently what happened is that the owner received the same phone and hated the sound, called them muddy etc… Fine by me. I disagree with friends of mine who like this phone over that one, and everyone is going to have differing preferences. We are all different and will all see and hear things different._

 

That is extremely true, and the small amount of time may not have been enough time to truely do the R10's their proper justice! (granted i have tested JL cables, and i wasnt impressed.... but to each his own i suppose 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ) I've had friends who arent into headphones come in and listen to 580's and HE-60's and not understand the difference in the pairs nor hear that much a difference in sound. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *KB* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*I sincerely did like the phones and stick by my assessment. I have not edited my mini review and do not intend to.*_

 

Once again - i appreciate the honest answer and you sticking to your words! Ken, you have honestly gained that much more respect from this head-fi member! 

 ~*WT*~


----------



## drlee27

Morph, would you send your R10, if you have a pair, to jena labs for recabling? I surely wouldn't!


----------



## tyrion

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *drlee27* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Morph, would you send your R10, if you have a pair, to jena labs for recabling? I surely wouldn't!_

 

I don't know why anyone would send R10s anywhere but Sony to be recabled with the stock cable, but that's just me.


----------



## Edwood

This thread still delivers.


----------



## n_maher

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ironic, one of the MOTs on this site (won't mention names) that soooo revered and at least TWO cables I purchased from him had channel dropouts! Both interconnects AND headphone cable! Wonder how shoddy his soldering was!_

 

You know, it's comments like that which pretty much remove all doubt and solidify your position in this thread as a complete waste of time. What the hell does unrelated information like this have to do with anything other than to steer attention away from the topic at hand? Did that unnamed mystery manufacturer refuse to make things right? Did they not correct the fault when given the chance? Did they cause serious damage to any of your equipment as a result and they deny any liability and still charge a large sum of money for doing essentially nothing? I'm going to guess no, or else we probably would have heard about it given your likeness for seeing your own posts.

 Here's challenge that should be easy enough for you morph201, answer any of those questions and it'll be the first time you provided any real, valuable information in this thread.


----------



## drlee27

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *KB* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_AAAAHHHHhhhhhh!!

 ..... despite having competing vendors that might not like me or my work I still would not say ill of them or post photos of others’ work on my forum or webpage. 

 Ken
_

 

I have to agree.


----------



## tyrion

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *n_maher* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You know, it's comments like that which pretty much remove all doubt and solidify your position in this thread as a complete waste of time. What the hell does unrelated information like this have to do with anything other than to steer attention away from the topic at hand? Did that unnamed mystery manufacturer refuse to make things right? Did they not correct the fault when given the chance? Did they cause serious damage to any of your equipment as a result and they deny any liability and still charge a large sum of money for doing essentially nothing? I'm going to guess no, or else we probably would have heard about it given your likeness for seeing your own posts.

 Here's challenge that should be easy enough for you morph201, answer any of those questions and it'll be the first time you provided any real, valuable information in this thread._

 

What he said!


----------



## morphsci

Could one of the admins please remove the Morph from Morph201's nomiker? Really it is becoming really embarassing and I do have priority. Thanks.


----------



## Fungi

Maybe we should just ignore him until he answers the many questions he's avoided so far. Ken@ALO came out and provided his side of the story. Now Morph201, where's your side, since you seem to care about everyone's side so much? People are asking for clarification from you and you have yet to provide it.


----------



## penger

I think it's very nice of Ken to come out and offer his side. Thanks for offering further insight in a very collected manner.


----------



## guzziguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *morphsci* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Could one of the admins please remove the Morph from Morph201's nomiker? Really it is becoming really embarassing and I do have priority. Thanks._

 

They could just change it to Dogfish or d_mcnasty69, apparently some of his aliases on other boards.


----------



## purk

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tyrion* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't know why anyone would send R10s anywhere but Sony to be recabled with the stock cable, but that's just me._

 

Yep....my point exactly. Of course, I would love to try APS cable on my R10 but I'm extremely pleased with the way my R10 sound at the moment.


----------



## W.T.

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *purk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yep....my point exactly. Of course, I would love to try APS cable on my R10 but I'm extremely pleased with the way my R10 sound at the moment._

 

to be honest - im suprised you havent purk 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Granted, of course, you are a man with amazing taste - and i would personally have to say especially in AT's (where is a hail emote when you need one?), i was this " " close to going balanced V2 from APS on my L3000s.... something about about them being 110% immaculate made me change my mind... hmm...


----------



## swt61

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *morphsci* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Could one of the admins please remove the Morph from Morph201's nomiker? Really it is becoming really embarassing and I do have priority. Thanks._

 

Sadly I did get this confused early on in this thread, but only for a few seconds, and then it was very much apparent that this wasn't your M.O.


----------



## tk3

The guy is just trolling anyway, no one can be actually like that for real, at least I like to think so.
 Now that his "JL spokesman" thing has gone down the drain (which btw, you still haven't answered), he's gone in a different direction with (not-so) subtle personal attacks and insults, along with trying to play himself out as the victim.


----------



## jrosenth

Thanks Ken. Appreciate the clarification and the honest forthright answer.

 Would be great if Jena would do the same.


----------



## Riboge

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tyrion* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't know why anyone would send R10s anywhere but Sony to be recabled with the stock cable, but that's just me._

 

I had mine recabled to go balanced, which did improve them abit. Some people DO know how to recable R10, though all are leary of the expensive risk and most won't hazard it. This is part of why the price is higher than for other recables.

 Mikhail did it. He did not leave short wires that he soldered the new cable to. He was able to remove the driver in my case, so did it in the best way. He tells me he always tries do this first, but if he can't safely remove the driver he resorts to leaving the shortest possible wire to solder to. Clearly reports that he alway cuts and solders are inaccurate and typical of the unfounded assertions and opinions rampant in this thread from all sides.


----------



## boomana

Boilingfrog made two calm and well-articulated posts stating his side of things, named respected vendors, with whom he's worked for years, as references, and has Alex's pics and well-articulated documentation to back his side up. Though it's fair to speculate Alex may have some something to gain from posting what he found, that gain is minimal compared to the risk he took of exposing shoddy workmanship from a well-established company, especially if not true. I don't think he made the decision to speak out lightly. I also see nothing wrong in documenting his skills at a difficult repair on his own website, no matter who did the damage, as it is his business to do so. Boilingfrog's only motivation seems to be to save others from a similar fate.

 All we know from JenaLabs is that they were willing to send a rambling, hole-filled email about a customer dispute to a supposedly uninvolved third party, morph201, denying responsibility for everything, including the repairs they admitted doing. This disinterested third party, morph201, then posted the email up on this site, with or without permission, then rambled on himself in numerous posts of a similar style to the email in that he admitted involvement when it served him, denied it when it didn't serve him, and launched accusations towards others for all sorts of random things. Questions remain of why JenaLabs would send such an email to anyone not involved, let alone morph201, and why morph201 would be privy to this information only a couple hours after this thread started, if he is as truly disinterested as he claims. Since morph201 has dodged answering any inquiries, we'll never know, but I personally no longer need this answer.

 If anyone wants to withhold judgment about who is to blame for the R10 damage, that is fair enough, but the manner in which each side chose to handle the situation, and the persons with whom they chose align in order to tell their side of the story, speaks volumes about who they are as people in general, as well as to their credibility and trustworthiness in business transactions. That's all I need to know.


 As for this:

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Boomana: I'm not exactly sure what you're issue is with me (???)... I'm not sure what I've done to make you so hostile towards me. Get to know me, you might find out that I'm a decent person. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

Since you can't seriously be posing that question to me, it can only be read as an appeal to a wider audience and as a ruse make readers think I'm some bad bully who is picking on you, a nice guy who can't get a break. All I've done is post my opinion in this thread about your strange involvement in the matter, as others have done even more aggressively, and respond publicly to a rather nasty and uncalled for pm you, Mr. Decent Person, sent me, not the other way around. And since your post was intended to rally others to your side and paint yourself as an innocent, please recall that many members reading this thread also remember well your posts from other threads and sites. A specific one jumps to mind in which you told me to get back in the kitchen and make you a sammich, which, as I recall, was unrelated to the topic at hand. Why would I want to get to know you more? You've showed me all I want to know.


----------



## Morph201

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *boomana* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If anyone wants to withhold judgment about who is to blame for the R10 damage, that is fair enough, but the manner in which each side chose to handle the situation, and the persons with whom they chose align in order to tell their side of the story, speaks volumes about who they are as people in general, as well as to their credibility and trustworthiness in business transactions. That's all I need to know.


 As for this:



 Since you can't seriously be posing that question to me, it can only be read as an appeal to a wider audience and as a ruse make readers think I'm some bad bully who is picking on you, a nice guy who can't get a break. All I've done is post my opinion in this thread about your strange involvement in the matter, as others have done even more aggressively, and respond publicly to a rather nasty and uncalled for pm you, Mr. Decent Person, sent me, not the other way around. And since your post was intended to rally others to your side and paint yourself as an innocent, please recall that many members reading this thread also remember well your posts from other threads and sites. A specific one jumps to mind in which you told me to get back in the kitchen and make you a sammich, which, as I recall, was unrelated to the topic at hand. Why would I want to get to know you more? You've showed me all I want to know._

 

At the risk of breathing new life into this thread, I NEVER aligned myself with a "side", granted I played devil's advocate at certain points because NO, I don't take ANYTHING at face value. And I deemed it VERY appropos that we hear both sides as is done in most courts in the free world. 

 Yes, it is a very serious allegation to state Jena Labs of shoddy work, given their history and reputation. So, we would need to hear from them in order to see if there are in fact any holes in the story.

 Examine any of my posts and you will NOT see me "defending" JL, but asking to hear both sides. Very simple concept, no?

 I am far from innocent, I agree. But, I find it somewhat comical that people felt it was OK to vent their frustrations out on me, so be it.. I can take the heat, and much more. 

 Boomana: I believe you to be much more intelligent than that, you know 95% of what I said to you was in jest, let's be for real, this is but a microcosm of the real world, nothing to lose one's cool over. Now as far as BoilingFrog, he has every right to make it known what he went through in order to educate any future customers.

 Soo, I guess this means no "samich" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Laugh a little!


----------



## warpdriver

Morph201, you are still skirting the issue. 

 Here is the question again:

 Do you have any affiliation with Jenalabs?


----------



## milkpowder

Unless he denies it, I would think so.


----------



## 2deadeyes

Keep dancing, but I think you'll need a new pair of shoes soon.


----------



## tyrion

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *warpdriver* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Morph201, you are still skirting the issue. 

 Here is the question again:

 Do you have any affiliation with Jenalabs?_

 

As boomana already pointed out, does it matter what the answer is at this point. Would anyone give any credence if he now came back and said he has not involvement. I know that I wouldn't. It's unfortunate that he didn't address this straight on when it was first asked. His failure to respond speaks volumes.


----------



## The Legend

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tyrion* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_As boomana already pointed out, does it matter what the answer is at this point. Would anyone give any credence if he now came back and said he has not involvement. I know that I wouldn't. It's unfortunate that he didn't address this straight on when it was first asked. His failure to respond speaks volumes._

 

Couldn't agree more.


----------



## boomana

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_At the risk of breathing new life into this thread, I NEVER aligned myself with a "side", granted I played devil's advocate at certain points because NO, I don't take ANYTHING at face value. And I deemed it VERY appropos that we hear both sides as is done in most courts in the free world._

 

I was concerned with JenaLab's choice to align themselves with you, which speaks to their judgment.

  Quote:


 Yes, it is a very serious allegation to state Jena Labs of shoddy work, given their history and reputation. So, we would need to hear from them in order to see if there are in fact any holes in the story. 
 

But we did hear from them. They chose to email you their side. You chose to post it, with or without permission. By this time, I'm sure they know about this thread, so unless Jena has something to add, it's safe to assume that that's their statement, and it's full of holes.


  Quote:


 Examine any of my posts and you will NOT see me "defending" JL, but asking to hear both sides. Very simple concept, no? 
 

It is a simple concept, but your posts reveal you are far from impartial. 

  Quote:


 I am far from innocent, I agree. But, I find it somewhat comical that people felt it was OK to vent their frustrations out on me, so be it.. I can take the heat, and much more. 
 

This victim stance you play is getting tiresome. 

  Quote:


 Boomana: I believe you to be much more intelligent than that, you know 95% of what I said to you was in jest, *let's be for real, this is but a microcosm of the real world, nothing to lose one's cool over. * Now as far as BoilingFrog, he has every right to make it known what he went through in order to educate any future customers.

 Soo, I guess this means no "samich" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Laugh a little! 
 

No one has lost their cool, so why try to spin it that way? That's just another way to play the victim card, but it doesn't work around here. What's for real is that you've revealed a continued lack of judgment that extends to your sense of humor as well. Adios.

 EDIT: I was trying to think what your comments reminded me of, and then it came to me: When I taught middle school, the kids would say all sorts of nasty things to each other and when called out on it, they always said, "I was just joking." No one believed the "just joking" statements because even kids are smart enough understand what's real and what's not. Why bring middle school tactics to this forum? It doesn't even work there, and it sure won't work here.


----------



## Morph201

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *warpdriver* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Morph201, you are still skirting the issue. 

 Here is the question again:

 Do you have any affiliation with Jenalabs?_

 


 No affiliation, whatsoever. Just a concerned customer.


----------



## Dzjudz

Wow, I just went through 2 bags of popcorn reading this thread. Thanks guys, you all made my day!


----------



## W.T.

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No affiliation, whatsoever. Just a concerned customer._

 

Then i have two questions for you:
 1. WHY would Jenalabs send you the email, and did they authorize/request that you post this email?

 2. Since you are only a concerned customer playing devils advocate, would you, after reading and hearing and seeing both sides of the story, send a pair of R10's to Jenalabs or consider a different competitor? And if so, which one?


----------



## Fitz

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Dzjudz* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wow, I just went through 2 bags of popcorn reading this thread. Thanks guys, you all made my day!_

 

Only 2 bags? You hurry too much, is more fun to read it slowly and savor the moments.


----------



## furball

I've been following this thread for 2 days straight now. In addition to that "my cat tore up my VD cable" thread, this thread is the best thing that has happened in this cables forum in recent memory.

 This is definitely better than soap opera!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Fitz* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Only 2 bags? You hurry too much, is more fun to read it slowly and savor the moments._


----------



## FooTemps

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No affiliation, whatsoever. Just a concerned customer._

 

holy crap am i banned?


----------



## Hi-Finthen

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Dzjudz* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wow, I just went through 2 bags of popcorn reading this thread. Thanks guys, you all made my day!_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Fitz* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Only 2 bags? You hurry too much, is more fun to read it slowly and savor the moments._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *furball* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've been following this thread for 2 days straight now. In addition to that "my cat tore up my VD cable" thread, this thread is the best thing that has happened in this cables forum in recent memory.

 This is definitely better than soap opera!
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

I'm begining not to like the taste of popcorn...

 But I just had to return to the thread, hoping not to miss the sentencing, or at the least, not the lynching 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 So, I guess we can take Morph201s word, he isn't Jenna, right folks :/


----------



## Wmcmanus

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FooTemps* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So who wants to take 1 week ban bet on Morph201 never telling us his relation to jenalabs and his real reasoning behind all of this?

 I'll take a 1 week ban from head-fi if he says it. Seriously. Wmcmanus, if morph201 admits anything, ban me for a week!_

 

Sounds like fun! I like banning people just for fun. Ask Jahn. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 No, seriously. We don't play games with banning people based on bets or whatever. It's not something to toy around with or to use as a stick. In fact, Jude very much opposes banning anyone (especially long standing members) unless there are very good reasons to do so. We want people to feel comfortable here, like they're at home and at peace. So I won't take you up on your offer, tempting though it may be from the lighter side of things.


----------



## milkpowder

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FooTemps* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_holy crap am i banned?_

 

That's assuming he's telling the truth


----------



## Wmcmanus

Quote:


 Quote:
 Originally Posted by KB 
 AAAAHHHHhhhhhh!!

 ..... despite having competing vendors that might not like me or my work I still would not say ill of them or post photos of others’ work on my forum or webpage. 

 Ken 
 

 Quote:


 I have to agree. 
 

Not me. I don't agree with this at all. 

 I do think Ken's post was excellent in every other respect, but I don't agree with the above quoted part of it. Let me explain: I do appreciate what he also said about being essentially a non-combative person. I'm sure that explains his position on this aspect of his post as much as anything. So fair enough. 

 But here's the rub: I also think that (whether Ken intended it this way or not), what he said above could be read to suggest his disagreement with Alex's decision to post pics of JL's shoddy work. Fine that he wouldn't take this approach himself, and fine that he disagrees that Alex has taken this approach, but if this is what he meant to say, he should have just said it directly. 

 It's certainly an open issue in terms of whether Alex's approach in this matter (by posting the pics and openly placing the blame on JL) resulted in a net positive or a net negative, all things considered. I think that most of the people who have posted on this thread would vote that being aware of the situation is a good thing, despite the fact that it has caused reputational damage to JL. 

 At the same time, I can see where anyone who is involved in this sort of business would become a little nervous as a result. All it takes is one major mistake like this and your reputation would be damaged pretty badly and for a long time to come. So from that perspective, I kind of agree with Ken in the sense that he wouldn't want to set out to destroy someone else's reputation any more than he would want someone to attempt to do that to him. That's just a matter of decorum and professional respect. 

 But I can also see why a friend and someone who has a direct association with JL (such as Ken) would be particularly bothered that it happened to be them on the receiving end of such negative exposure. Accordingly, to the extent that these comments were in any way suggesting that Alex is somehow to blame for any of this... that I don't agree with, as inconvenient as it may be for the parties involved. 

 I've got a pair of R10's and I've often thought of having them recabled. If/when ever I get my SDS-XRL, I may just do that. As much as I appreciate the fact that what happened to this pair is not likely to ever happen again to any other pair (i.e., lesson learned, so much less risk of a recurrence at this point), I'd still steer clear of JL at this point based on what I've read here. Thus, as an R10 owner, I do find this thread quite informative and regard Alex's decision to write up the expose' as a net positive.

 And finally... I've probably made much too much of Ken's comments about this, but since we're analyzing everything to death anyway, adding one more layer shouldn't hurt too much. Ken's an awesome guy, by the way, and so is Alex by all accounts (although I've yet to meet him).


----------



## FooTemps

, awww no fun. Ban bets aren't allowed....


----------



## kool bubba ice

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Wmcmanus* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Not me. I don't agree with this at all. 

 I do think Ken's post was excellent in every other respect, but I don't agree with the above quoted part of it. Let me explain: I do appreciate what he also said about being essentially a non-combative person. I'm sure that explains his position on this aspect of his post as much as anything. So fair enough. 

 But here's the rub: I also think that (whether Ken intended it this way or not), what he said above could be read to suggest his disagreement with Alex's decision to post pics of JL's shoddy work. Fine that he wouldn't take this approach himself, and fine that he disagrees that Alex has taken this approach, but if this is what he meant to say, he should have just said it directly. 

 It's certainly an open issue in terms of whether Alex's approach in this matter (by posting the pics and openly placing the blame on JL) resulted in a net positive or a net negative, all things considered. I think that most of the people who have posted on this thread would vote that being aware of the situation is a good thing, despite the fact that it has caused reputational damage to JL. 

 At the same time, I can see where anyone who is involved in this sort of business would become a little nervous as a result. All it takes is one major mistake like this and your reputation would be damaged pretty badly and for a long time to come. So from that perspective, I kind of agree with Ken in the sense that he wouldn't want to set out to destroy someone else's reputation any more than he would want someone to attempt to do that to him. That's just a matter of decorum and professional respect. 

 But I can also see why a friend and someone who has a direct association with JL (such as Ken) would be particularly bothered that it happened to be them on the receiving end of such negative exposure. Accordingly, to the extent that these comments were in any way suggesting that Alex is somehow to blame for any of this... that I don't agree with, as inconvenient as it may be for the parties involved. 

 I've got a pair of R10's and I've often thought of having them recabled. If/when ever I get my SDS-XRL, I may just do that. As much as I appreciate the fact that what happened to this pair is not likely to ever happen again to any other pair (i.e., lesson learned, so much less risk of a recurrence at this point), I'd still steer clear of JL at this point based on what I've read here. Thus, as an R10 owner, I do find this thread quite informative and regard Alex's decision to write up the expose' as a net positive.

 And finally... I've probably made much too much of Ken's comments about this, but since we're analyzing everything to death anyway, adding one more layer shouldn't hurt too much. Ken's an awesome guy, by the way, and so is Alex by all accounts (although I've yet to meet him)._

 

Ken is a hypocrite..He posted pics of Mikals shoddy work didn't he.. & playing the victim.. So Alex doesn't like him cause a customer asked him to fix his R10's that Jlabs ruined.. & he proved pics of the car wreck.


----------



## naamanf

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Wmcmanus* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ All it takes is one major mistake like this and your reputation would be damaged pretty badly and for a long time to come._

 

Personally I don't think it's so much the mistake they made but how they handled it. 

 My personal opinion of JL is they are greedy and out to make as much money as possible.


----------



## 883dave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FooTemps* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_holy crap am i banned?_

 

I am going to put you on my ignore list for one full week, that should teach you not to bet and loose.


----------



## 883dave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kool bubba ice* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ken is a hypocrite..He posted pics of Mikals shoddy work didn't he.. & playing the victim.. So Alex doesn't like him cause a customer asked him to fix his R10's that Jlabs ruined.. & he proved pics of the car wreck._

 

Oh goodie someone else to crucify, seeing that Morph201 came clean.

 Headfi....Drama...Rhetoric...Blame...Witchhunts... Incrimination...Accusations...Name Calling...Hidden Shills...Semantics...Opinions


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *furball* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is definitely better than soap opera!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

See the next episode of:

*"The JL Crucifiction (...benefits to come...)" *

 here in your new entertainment channel "Head-fi" ...


----------



## slwiser

Quote:


 Ken is a hypocrite..He posted pics of Mikals shoddy work didn't he... 
 

Maybe not Ken Ball but at least one other who has posted in this thread has posted pictures on his website of shoddy work of others.


----------



## PFKMan23

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *883dave* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Oh goodie someone else to crucify, seeing that Morph201 came clean._

 

From where I stand he didn't come clean, he's just trying to salvage some part of his reputation. I'm still curious how he acquired his information from Jena Labs.


----------



## Voltron

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kool bubba ice* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ken is a hypocrite..He posted pics of Mikals shoddy work didn't he.. & playing the victim.. So Alex doesn't like him cause a customer asked him to fix his R10's that Jlabs ruined.. & he proved pics of the car wreck._

 

You're just plain wrong about Ken posting any pics, KBI. Jena Labs posted those pics on its website and Ken Ball/ALO are not part of Jena Labs or really related to them other than the fact that Ken uses their cable for his cables and headphones. He has not posted any pics of Mikhail's anything. I don't agree that it is shoddy, btw, and BoilingFrog was expressly informed of his methodology. Indeed, BF did not complain about Mikhail's work, he just wanted to go from balanced back to single-ended and got interested in Jena Labs' alleged expertise in re-cabling R10s.

 As for the second sentence of your post, I cannot understand it so I am not sure what you are saying or about whom. Ken was clear in his post that he wasn't faulting Alex but stated he would not do it. IO personally agree with Wayne's take on that position, but I am amazed at how hard it is for people to separate Ken and ALO out of this issue because they literally have nothing to do with it.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PFKMan23* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_From where I stand he didn't come clean, he's just trying to salvage some part of his reputation. I'm still curious how he acquired his information from Jena Labs._

 

Agreed, and I am curious too, but he is such a lost cause I couldn't really care less about morph201's connection or lack of it at this point. It is still shameful that Jena Labs has not stepped up at all to at least state its take on all this. Heck, BF isn't even looking for anything from them any more, so it is merely their reputation that they have to think about now.


----------



## furball

Come on, deep down in your heart, you have to admit this sort of stuff is kind of fun, better than some of the sitcoms I regularly watch on cable.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_See the next episode of:

*"The JL Crucifiction (...benefits to come...)" *

 here in your new entertainment channel "Head-fi" ... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_


----------



## Hi-Finthen

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *furball* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Come on, deep down in your heart, you have to admit this sort of stuff is kind of fun, better than some of the sitcoms I regularly watch on cable.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I'd rather follow the drama unfolding in the Celtics vs. Hawks playoffs, up 2-0 and tied at the half of game 3 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The series is about as predetermined with certainty for this Celtics fan as is the one sidedness of the facts in the case here, yet still of greater entertainment value for one side going to be slaughtered for their lack of skills 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Beat 'em good~


----------



## furball

This is the reason why I love the cable forum!


----------



## smeggy

Comcast is always saying the best dramas are on cable, guess they're right.


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *furball* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Come on, deep down in your heart, you have to admit this sort of stuff is kind of fun, better than some of the sitcoms I regularly watch on cable.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

X2 and it is far better and more entertaining also than watching Godfather, parts 1,2,3,4,5,6, or Death Wish, 1,2,3,4,5,6, everyother day as they play them now....


----------



## guzziguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Hi-Finthen* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'd rather follow the drama unfolding in the Celtics vs. Hawks playoffs, up 2-0 and tied at the half of game 3 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The series is about as predetermined with certainty for this Celtics fan as is the one sidedness of the facts in the case here, yet still of greater entertainment value for one side going to be slaughtered for their lack of skills 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Beat 'em good~_

 

So far, Atlanta is doing better than Denver.


----------



## Hi-Finthen

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Hi-Finthen* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'd rather follow the drama unfolding in the Celtics vs. Hawks playoffs, up 2-0 and tied at the half of game 3 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The series is about as predetermined with certainty for this Celtics fan as is the one sidedness of the facts in the case here, yet still of greater entertainment value for one side going to be slaughtered for their lack of skills 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Beat 'em good~_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *guzziguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So far, Atlanta is doing better than Denver._

 


 LOL...And the moral of the story line : You never can be so very sure...(my Celtics lost in what I was sure to be a certainty 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )

 Humbling experience, and I was so very sure of it


----------



## monolith

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *naamanf* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ Quote:


 The total value of goods, services, and shipping/insurance provided to 
 S.W. was

 $1,500.00 First JENA Labs harness
 $1,300.00 Second, smaller gauge wire, JENA Labs harness
 $ 450.00 stock Sony harness install
 $ 60.00 duplex outlet [ forgetting about the first set sent]
 _$ 226.00 shipping and insurance._
 $3,536.00 TOTAL 
 

Seriously? I mean seriously? I can't imagine a cable reinstall taking more than an hour. I know doctors that charge less. And this is something any skilled 10 year old in a third world factory can do for $.05. 

*I reserve a spot in hell for them based on this alone.*_

 

Having just read this whole thread, I must say that this is the truest thing anyone has said here thusfar.




 Also, Morph201, if, as you say, you have no connection with JenaLabs other than being a concerned customer, please explain the meaning and the tone of this post of yours, early on in this thread:

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It is my business, that's all YOU need to know.. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I'm afraid I can't wrap my head around saying that unless you 

 1. aren't telling the truth about your lack of connection with JenaLabs, or;

 2. were being intentionally manipulative and provocative.


----------



## guzziguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Hi-Finthen* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_LOL...And the moral of the story line : You never can be so very sure...(my Celtics lost in what I was sure to be a certainty 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )

 Humbling experience, and I was so very sure of it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

That's OK, I doubt that the Celtics will be pushed too hard until the Eastern Conference finals.


----------



## 883dave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No affiliation, whatsoever. Just a concerned customer._

 


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *W.T.* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Then i have two questions for you:
 1. WHY would Jenalabs send you the email, and did they authorize/request that you post this email?

 2. Since you are only a concerned customer playing devils advocate, would you, after reading and hearing and seeing both sides of the story, send a pair of R10's to Jenalabs or consider a different competitor? And if so, which one?_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *milkpowder* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's assuming he's telling the truth
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PFKMan23* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_From where I stand he didn't come clean, he's just trying to salvage some part of his reputation. I'm still curious how he acquired his information from Jena Labs._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *monolith* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Snip.Also, Morph201, if, as you say, you have no connection with JenaLabs other than being a concerned customer, please explain the meaning and the tone of this post of yours, early on in this thread:


 I'm afraid I can't wrap my head around saying that unless you 

 1. aren't telling the truth about your lack of connection with JenaLabs, or;

 2. were being intentionally manipulative and provocative._

 

And in the interest of furthering the Drama on this channel, they keep on whipping that dead horse.


----------



## stevenkelby

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *883dave* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_And in the interest of furthering the Drama on this channel, they keep on whipping that dead horse._

 

What are you trying to say?

 We just want to know what he was thinking.

 If he was thinking.

 Which he obviously wasn't.


----------



## milkpowder

I hadn't finished my popcorn yet.


----------



## wower

This thread is a mess! See what I did there? I don't have anything to add, just wanted to post in this legendry thread. APS will recable my AD2000s when I get the chance. He does great work!


----------



## chesebert

if I have not already posted; let it be known, R10 sounds great


----------



## 883dave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *stevenkelby* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What are you trying to say?

 We just want to know what he was thinking.

 If he was thinking.

 Which he obviously wasn't._

 


 This is Headfi the headphone site, not Headfi the psychiatry site.


----------



## stevenkelby

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *883dave* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is Headfi the headphone site, not Headfi the psychiatry site._

 

All part of the fun.

 If no-one else has anything to say I guess this thread is soon to be dead.

 I guess we won't be hearing any new info.


----------



## xenithon

I vote for a "JenaLab Recabled R10" sub-forum, now that we're in the midst of a forum overhaul


----------



## furball

Yeah I've been wondering why the site layout just suddenly changed out of the blue...


----------



## manaox2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *furball* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yeah I've been wondering why the site layout just suddenly changed out of the blue..._

 

Might as well try to blithely say that I don't like it. Though I know I fail.


----------



## PFKMan23

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *stevenkelby* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 I guess we won't be hearing any new info._

 

If you look at the Jena Labs website, it seems they will be posting a reply.


----------



## milkpowder

jenalabs headphone mod for sony R10


----------



## Riboge

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PFKMan23* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If you look at the Jena Labs website, it seems they will be posting a reply._

 

You omit that they do reply there. I wonder why. For what it's worth, looking to that site one also reads that they corroborate that the much maligned Morph201 is not even a customer of theirs and quote the email he sent to them inquiring, which makes pretty clear he has no special or actually any relationship with them. They post their entire email response to him thus owning it fully and making clear they have been aware of his posting it and don' t object. They do not attempt to excuse or explain their sending info about a customer including his name and the details of their transactions with him to anyone else much less a stranger.

 I believe that the treatment Morph201, for one, has received in this thread is appalling even given the ways he has been coy and withholding herein and even given his bad rep at other discussion sites. The viciousness displayed and then applauded for the prurient entertainment derived by others is sickening to me, however uncool that makes me seem to some. I wish those that this pertains to would take their popcorn to a dogfight or some such or better yet just shove it...


----------



## Kees

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Riboge* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You omit that they do reply there. I wonder why. For what it's worth, looking to that site one also reads that they corroborate that the much maligned Morph201 is not even a customer of theirs and quote the email he sent to them inquiring, which makes pretty clear he has no special or actually any relationship with them. They post their entire email response to him thus owning it fully and making clear they have been aware of his posting it and don' t object. They do not attempt to excuse or explain their sending info about a customer including his name and the details of their transactions with him to anyone else much less a stranger.

 I believe that the treatment Morph201, for one, has received in this thread is appalling even given the ways he has been coy and withholding herein and even given his bad rep at other discussion sites. The viciousness displayed and then applauded for the prurient entertainment derived by others is sickening to me, however uncool that makes me seem to some. I wish those that this pertains to would take their popcorn to a dogfight or some such or better yet just shove it..._

 

I agree 100%.
 The level of maturity here is making me feel rather sad.


----------



## Fungi

Morph201's maturity level in posts warranted the responses.

 But come on, revealing the name of the owner of the R10 is low. The JL website is just a little blurb and the email posted earlier.

 I hope that anyone that reads about this can piece together the information and come to the right conclusion.


----------



## Hi-Finthen

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Hi-Finthen* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_'Head-Fi, The Mus-ical / Comedy", I like it Unc...lol

 Perhaps as a finale, warterboarding "Morph The Cat" till the truth is told...LOL

 All that aside, seriously; What I know of morph on the boards and by PMs, is that he does like to stir it up, as a contrarian, just for his own entertainment and jollies; But this time he got involved a bit over his head and may have done both himself and JL more harm than good, particularly without his considering the real victim here in all of this, boilingfrog(the imagery of that moniker seems unfortunately appropo in this case)._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Hi-Finthen* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_LOL...And the moral of the story line : You never can be so very sure...(my Celtics lost in what I was sure to be a certainty 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 )

 Humbling experience, and I was so very sure of it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

As I said early on Morph201 was only playing a contrarian or the devils advocate, and he did so by getting in over his head on something very serious to many and he was used by JL and abused by some here. Simply unfortunate all ways around, as I said, especially B.F....


----------



## JENA Labs

This is our reply to all of the thread contents...
 We do have something to say about all of it.
jenalabs headphone mod for sony R10

 enjoy


----------



## Andrew_WOT

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *milkpowder* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_jenalabs headphone mod for sony R10_

 

How many laws did they break disclosing customer's personally identifiable information first to some *curious* 3rd party and then publicly on their web page?


----------



## n_maher

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Andrew_WOT* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How many laws did they break disclosing customer's personally identifiable information first to some *curious* 3rd party and then publicly on their web page?_

 

Not sure if they broke any laws but if I were a potential or current customer I certainly wouldn't be happy about it.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JENA Labs* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is our reply to all of the thread contents...
 We do have something to say about all of it.
jenalabs headphone mod for sony R10

 enjoy_

 

I believe that your "something" officially qualifies as nothing new since you already provided that information to a third party (minus the personal stuff) and since you've been following the thread you know it's already been posted here. What I'd be more interesting in hearing is how you came to the conclusion that you had "repaired" the headphones before returning them to the customer. Any comment on that?


----------



## Andrew_WOT

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *n_maher* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Not sure if they broke any laws but if I were a potential or current customer I certainly wouldn't be happy about it._

 

AFAIK it's illegal without customer's written or electronic consent or if disclosure is authorized by court order.


----------



## barqy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Fungi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Morph201's maturity level in posts warranted the responses.

 But come on, *revealing the name of the owner of the R10 is low*. The JL website is just a little blurb and the email posted earlier.

 I hope that anyone that reads about this can piece together the information and come to the right conclusion._

 

agreed.


----------



## vcoheda

there really isn't any general privacy laws that apply to the internet. how information you submit is used is almost entirely dictated by the privacy terms of that particular web site.


----------



## Boilingfrog

Thanks for everyones support. In my wildest dreams I never expected this issue to become such a raging topic on Headfi. My intention was only to make the community aware of what had taken place. Yes, I fully expected JL to take a hit with this. They deserved to for how horribly they treated me(and my R10s). But not to this degree. Watching the community process this I realized that I haven't been nearly as upset as some of the members with what happened to me. Well, it's fair to say JL's decision to post my name in their rantings certainly doesn't make me happy. This was a super unprofessional move that doesn't remotely seem to help their case or their business. Jennifer's response is reminding me of the famous "Who stole the strawberrys?" scene in *Citizen Kane*. It's just becoming sheer madness. I can't even begin to think how someone seemingly so intelligent could misread a situation so badly. JL has created and subsequently perpetuated this entire tragedy on themselves. I suggest they avoid opening a PR agency any time soon. Again, thanks for everyones support. Glad to be able to liven up the board with my arrival.


----------



## jp11801

I have a pretty tough time accepting Jenna Labs side of this mess, They harp on the fact that they provided 3k plus worth of services but since they received both headphone harness' back and simply rewired the stock cable back on I fail to understand how this comes to $1000. They can reuse the wire and c'mon $1500 for a recable that is seriously OTT.


 I have never had a vendor fix something and not mention it if not for their own protection??


----------



## Ezer

Regardless of any other circumstances in this situation, I find that publicly revealing the customer's name is totally inexcusable.


----------



## WittyzTH

Actually, I don't like to argue with things like this, but kinda upset when reading some sentence.

  Quote:


 we also noted that on one of the drive units one of the very fine wire strands, a voice coil wire extending from the interior of the drive unit to the solder pad where connections are made, was formed into a slightly protruded loop and had been kinked. 
 

I really want to see pics of these since it's the real problem _not about the original wire and other wire soldering blah blah blah. _

  Quote:


 It is our position that Scott Wasserman's headphones had a defect in place in the form of a malformed voice coil wire, either internally, and/or additionally, externally, on one of the drive units that may have been further deformed or damaged in some manner during the first modification by another person/firm prior to our ever seen the headphones, or that may have been exacerbated by that and/or some other reason, which may include but not be limited to such reasons as playing at excessive sound level or being exposed to DC current in the audio signal being fed to the headphone . 
 

Did you inform him about the defective part? If so, why you didn't fix it, and then put your wire to test how it works? or at least told him you couldn't fix this, and send it back to him because it's defective.

 Moreover, interestingly, if you noticed there was something wrong about the voice coil wire, why you still do put your wire esp. for 2 times without testing how it sounds before sending him back?


  Quote:


 $ 450.00 stock Sony harness install 
 

any explain about this ridiculously price? There's no wire fee, isn't it? how come it could be expensive just removing your wires and putting the stock one instead.

 To me, you completely don't have any kind of sincerity to customers. Also, providing customers' name, information, and etc. to third party are inappropriate which the company shouldn't do. 

 You've kept reading this thread, but no post no explanation just being the whim in your own web site and inform us just nothing new, but *totally unacceptable*.


----------



## swt61

Boilingfrog, you have done a service to this community by letting us know what kind of customer service is considered acceptable by JL. I for one am not too concerned about the hit to their business. That's an appalling way to run a business and treat customers, and events like this have a way of culling the bad sheep from the herd. It's a necessary action IMO. Mistakes are acceptable, and if JL would have just tried to rectify their mistake this would not have ballooned into the disaster for them that it has.

 Furthermore JL's so called reply is on their website only, where no response can be made. Their suggestion that their ability to reply to this thread is hindered by our rules and regulations is pure fiction. They would be allowed to share their side of events without any censorship (other than foul language). 
 It seems very apparent that they want to control the situation as much as possible, without having to answer any questions.

 This just reinforces the opinion of many here that their customer service is blatantly flawed. At this point their situation is due to their own horrible decisions in this situation, and I don't think there is any reason to fell any remorse for JL. I most certainly will never give them any business, and I'll go the extra step of recommending to others to steer clear of them as well.

 And in reply to the treatment of Morph201, whether or not he has any relationship to JL is of no consiquence to me. He jumped in with both feet, and his actions have been in direct correlation to his treatment IMO.


----------



## sacd lover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Riboge* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You omit that they do reply there. I wonder why. For what it's worth, looking to that site one also reads that they corroborate that the much maligned Morph201 is not even a customer of theirs and quote the email he sent to them inquiring, which makes pretty clear he has no special or actually any relationship with them. They post their entire email response to him thus owning it fully and making clear they have been aware of his posting it and don' t object. They do not attempt to excuse or explain their sending info about a customer including his name and the details of their transactions with him to anyone else much less a stranger.

 I believe that the treatment Morph201, for one, has received in this thread is appalling even given the ways he has been coy and withholding herein and even given his bad rep at other discussion sites. The viciousness displayed and then applauded for the prurient entertainment derived by others is sickening to me, however uncool that makes me seem to some. I wish those that this pertains to would take their popcorn to a dogfight or some such or better yet just shove it..._

 

You wonder why?

 Did you ever think he probably looked at the website before the reply was made.

 As for you believing Morph201's treatment was appalling lets revisit the facts. A supposedly complete stanger emails JL and they give him intimate details of a private transaction including the individuals name. Then this indivdual involves himself in the dispute in JL's behalf, that is absolutely none of his business. I guess we will disagree. I believe Morph201 got just exactly what he asked for.

 Regarding this statement ....

 I wish those that this pertains to would take their popcorn to a dogfight or some such or better yet just shove it...

 When you come off your high horse guess what you can kiss.


----------



## guzziguy

Please note that the first response was from member "JENA Labs" and the second from "Jennifer Crock". The second one is probably fake and not from Jena Labs.


----------



## jrosenth

From Jena Labs site: 

 "S. W. [Jena Labs uses the full name here] is very vindictive and has vowed to ruin my reputation."

 Holy frick, just holy frick!

 Aside from being an ASTOUNDINGLY unprofessional response, that really treads into personal libel territory, seriously.

 BoilingFrog, you're taking this well, and folks here support you. But you just may want to look into libel issues especially if this escalates.


----------



## tk3

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HighLife* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So wait a second here, im confused...i read both sides and it seems like they were pointing the finger at each other. 

 So did Jenalabs actually fess up to messing up the R10s?_

 

There is no way that is real, it's just another head-fi user going incognito fanning the flames.
 I hope the mods can track his IP and dish out punishment accordingly.
 Think about it, why would JL bother to take the time to dedicate a whole webpage about this issue (whether in poor taste or not), and then send a message on the same day that basically comes down to *"I spit in your face and there is nothing you can do about it!"*.



 About their actual statement, that story looks concocted also.

 1) They admit that the previous modder did not remove the drivers from their housing, so they never had the chance to damage the broken part.
 So unless Boilingfrog willfully destroyed his own $6000+ headphones just to spite JL, there is no other person that could've done the awful modding job as depicted on Alex's website.
 Kinda like shooting yourself in the foot with that statement.

 2) The whole thing reads like _"we are the good guys that can't get a break from the evil customer that is blackmailing us, please give us sympathy"_.
 They keep coming back on technicalities like the "intermittent sound" issue over and over as if it is their trump card, but it's really a slight, while they completely ignore and dodge the most important issue that is the main reason people are getting on their back (i.e, headphone wrecked where they are the most likely culprit).
 And besides that, their whole story just sounds fake.

 Take their fees list for example:

 $1,500.00 First JENA Labs harness
 $1,300.00 Second, smaller gauge wire, JENA Labs harness
 $ 450.00 stock Sony harness install
 $ 60.00 duplex outlet [ forgetting about the first set sent]
 _$ 226.00 shipping and insurance._
 $3,536.00 TOTAL

 I don't know about you, but if I send off a pair of extremely expensive headphones off to be modded at an outrageous charge, I would expect top-notch customer service so that I get exactly what I want.

 What these guys are saying is basically:

*BF:*_"Hey, my headphones don't sound very good even though I'm paying you $1500 for the modding, what's up!?"_
*JL:*_"Oh, no problem, just send them back and we'll fix them for you for another $1300!"_

 Unless you are so filthy rich that you can throw away money like this, any sane person wouldn't agree to that.
 Based on that alone, the story doesn't sound believable at all.
 Unless they didn't mention to BF that there would be a $1300 extra charge for the second recable, which is just criminal.


 It's also amusing how they are listing the $450 charge to recable back to stock with a straight (internet) face, as if it's perfectly normal and not at all a sign of poor customer service, and even acting as if they are doing BF a *favor* by lowering the total cost to $1000!
 They are extorting their customer to pay for something they botched up just to get the headphones back to their previous condition. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I, for one, don't buy into this at all.


----------



## Riboge

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sacd lover* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You wonder why?

 Did you ever think he probably looked at the website before the reply was made.

 As for you believing Morph201's treatment was appalling lets revisit the facts. A supposedly complete stanger emails JL and they give him intimate details of a private transaction including the individuals name. Then this indivdual involves himself in the dispute in JL's behalf, that is absolutely none of his business. I guess we will disagree. I believe Morph201 got just exactly what he asked for.

 Regarding this statement ....

 I wish those that this pertains to would take their popcorn to a dogfight or some such or better yet just shove it...

 When you come off your high horse guess what you can kiss.




_

 

First off, it was as much his business as yours. Second, he clearly exercised bad judgment and also underestimated the hair-trigger ill will of such as you. Just how does this give a rational basis for calling him a liar, a shill, etc?

 The most pathetic thing is your thinking that if I speak up for maturity, reserving judgment and basic values of our culture until the facts are known and despite being frustrated or impatient getting them that this places me on a "high horse". That means to me your horse is way below any acceptable moral/ethical ground, making any kissing impossible in addition to being totally repugnant.

 And then, even if there were a basis for your opinion, how does this make the whole thing acceptably a matter of ghoulish entertainment? The available evidence, as opposed to your thinking that your thinking supplants the need for evidence, is that Morph201 was trying to do a good thing in a stupid way and further undermined by JL Lab's great indiscretion in sending their email (and perhaps more, of course). It could turn out it was worse but there is no evidence, only supposition, indicating that.


----------



## mark_h

The ApureSound cable looks the business!


----------



## vcoheda

that can't be real.


----------



## barqy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *vcoheda* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_that can't be real._

 

ip check?


----------



## Morph201

Regarding my treatment here or any other forum, I could really give two craps.. Like I said earlier, I have, at most, 2 people here that I actually communicate with, type whatever you want, it means nothing to me... I know for a fact 99% of you would not have the balls to say anything to my face...


----------



## naamanf

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I know for a fact 99% of you would not have the balls to say anything to my face... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Fighting words on the internet. Scary.


----------



## fatman711

And this is why I don't want to deal with Jena. Had bad experiences in the past as well...


----------



## Morph201

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *naamanf* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Fighting words on the internet. Scary._

 

No, not fighting words... just the truth.


----------



## n_maher

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I know for a fact 99% of you would not have the balls to say anything to my face... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

You're welcome to come to Florida this weekend and put that theory to the test. I'd love to have an open and honest discussion with you about this situation. Unless of course you were trying to be threatening, in which case, welcome to my ignore list.


----------



## furball

Morph, if you are not affiliated with JenaLabs, why even get yourself involved in this whole mess. Stay out of it, and let JenaLabs deal with it.


----------



## luvdunhill

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No, not fighting words... just the truth._

 

that 1% can still kick your ass though...


----------



## JadeEast




----------



## Morph201

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *n_maher* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You're welcome to come to Florida this weekend and put that theory to the test. I'd love to have an open and honest discussion with you about this situation. Unless of course you were trying to be threatening, in which case, welcome to my ignore list._

 

Look, I'm not making any threats, just stating a fact. People rush in to post crap when the ONLY thing I asked was that we wait for a response, before jumping to a conclusion, even if it looked bad from the start for Jena. Now we have an official response (which I posted in haste, I admit)... that's all. I did it with the understanding that it would put me in a precarious situation, but still there's no excuse for the BS that was posted afterwards. Florida this w\e is not doable for me, but we can arrange a date in the future to have that open discussion, I have no problems with that.


----------



## Morph201

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *luvdunhill* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_that 1% can still kick your ass though..._

 

Haha, so be it.. wont be an easy win!


----------



## Voltron

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Boilingfrog* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks for everyones support. In my wildest dreams I never expected this issue to become such a raging topic on Headfi. My intention was only to make the community aware of what had taken place. Yes, I fully expected JL to take a hit with this. They deserved to for how horribly they treated me(and my R10s). But not to this degree. Watching the community process this I realized that I haven't been nearly as upset as some of the members with what happened to me. Well, it's fair to say JL's decision to post my name in their rantings certainly doesn't make me happy. This was a super unprofessional move that doesn't remotely seem to help their case or their business. Jennifer's response is reminding me of the famous "Who stole the strawberrys?" scene in *Citizen Kane*. It's just becoming sheer madness. I can't even begin to think how someone seemingly so intelligent could misread a situation so badly. JL has created and subsequently perpetuated this entire tragedy on themselves. I suggest they avoid opening a PR agency any time soon. Again, thanks for everyones support. Glad to be able to liven up the board with my arrival._

 






 It was you, you, BoilingFrog, you stole the strawberries!

 Actually, that is from The Caine Mutiny, although in your current state of seige I don't blame you for mixing up the movie titles. Sorry you are having to go through all of this mess. Hope you are having some good time under those beautiful APS R10s as consolation!


----------



## kpeezy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Voltron* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 Actually, that is from The Caine Mutiny[/i]
 [/td] [/tr] [/table]


Good thing... I was starting to doubt whether or not I'd seen Citizen Kane._


----------



## Fitz

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kpeezy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Good thing... I was starting to doubt whether or not I'd seen Citizen Kane._

 

Hahaha, yeah, that had me confused for a moment there too.


----------



## sacd lover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Riboge* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_First off, it was as much his business as yours. Second, he clearly exercised bad judgment and also underestimated the hair-trigger ill will of such as you. Just how does this give a rational basis for calling him a liar, a shill, etc?

 The most pathetic thing is your thinking that if I speak up for maturity, reserving judgment and basic values of our culture until the facts are known and despite being frustrated or impatient getting them that this places me on a "high horse". That means to me your horse is way below any acceptable moral/ethical ground, making any kissing impossible in addition to being totally repugnant.

 And then, even if there were a basis for your opinion, how does this make the whole thing acceptably a matter of ghoulish entertainment? The available evidence, as opposed to your thinking that your thinking supplants the need for evidence, is that Morph201 was trying to do a good thing in a stupid way and further undermined by JL Lab's great indiscretion in sending their email (and perhaps more, of course). It could turn out it was worse but there is no evidence, only supposition, indicating that._

 

Maturity? .... YOU wish those that this pertains to would take their popcorn to a dogfight or some such or better yet just shove it....

 That statement was so mature. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Moving on, the facts as presented were quite clear. I dont know what more you expect to be given? A secret videotape? 

 What evidence is there JL did do the cable correctly? None! 

 We have a response from JL that offered what proof? None I see!

 I do know how I would feel if I paid $1500 to JL for a recable of my irreplaceable headphone and they nearly ruined them. So, I think JL's response was VERY sad. I think JLab's email response to a stranger, especially with the owners name revealed, was ridiculous. Moreover, how do you come to the conclusion Morph201 was trying to a good thing in a bad way? My take is he was trying to a bad thing in a bad way for his own private fun .... that blew up in his face .... and he suffered the consequences. Boo Hoo ....poor Morph201. Let's ignore the real victim.

 The ONLY evidence is the pics and they clearly do not support JLabs. JL's evidence was Morph201 undermining someone who had already suffered loss with nothing more than the company at faults email declarations .... which is then regurgitated on their website. 

 I appreciate the fact the boilingfrogs had the guts to reveal this fiasco so that others can avoid the same fate. This thread would not EXIST if JL did right by their customer.


----------



## orkney

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kpeezy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Good thing... I was starting to doubt whether or not I'd seen Citizen Kane._

 

Jena Labs ruined my Citizen Kane. I sent it to them in perfect condition and they gave me back Bogart, damn their perfidious hides.

 This thread is becoming one of those "head-fi mysteries" they're posting about over in the Member's Lounge. Will we ever know the truth? Is there a truth? Still puzzles me how anyone with JC's audiophile street cred could watch this all go down and not take restorative action. If I were them I'd scour Audiogon and then hop on a plane with an unruined, er unmodded second set of R10s and a photographer and make all this right, and quickly.

 o


----------



## Boilingfrog

The Caine Mutiny it is. I knew it was Caine something. Thank you Voltron.


----------



## powertoold

I love how Jena Labs posted BoilingFrog's real name. Now, I can Google it and find out he makes a lot of money 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 This is internet drama to the 100th degree!

 You should do something about your real name being posted BF!


----------



## Sovkiller

What will be next a chapter in YOUTUBE... ??? ...


----------



## HiGHFLYiN9

I see this threads been going strong through the weekend, I have a lot of drama to catch up on.


----------



## W.T.

I love the response on the JL website. I think we already read it all anyways posted by morph not long after this thread started. 

 I find it humorous that in the end they admit to tinkering with the driver and then lo-and-behold. Its busted. Yet Alex takes it and repairs the phones. I think this speaks volumes for their audio-repair comptence. 

 And their prices are ridiculous.
 $4000 to have end up with a botched pair of R10's with a stockcable (oh oops, was it only $1,000 for that now?)
 or $400 for a better cable and the job done right by APS.

 Don't believe the APS prices compared to JL?

 HERE: 
APureSound V3 Cable Pricing

 crickey for their original $1500 price, BF could have gotten an 80 foot recable on the R10's from APS


----------



## JENA Labs

That is correct.
 JENA Labs "settled for receiving $1000.00" it was paid and we were done.

 This is all history now. 
 More answers to questions:

 As for the use of a real name... well that individual used our real name... what did he expect. We do expect considerations to be held both ways. We give as we get.
 We are real, We have existed for many many years... if real names are not used then truth is not served. Being "punished" by a ghost will not happen. 

 Our customers are supremely important to us... However we are not now or in the past, lay downs for abuse.

 Is it not curious to anyone here why out of the thousands of clients we have had in the past... disgruntlement is so rare. We were not in the wrong. 

 Why do I post at the JENA Labs site rather than the here at the forums? because I have a website and it can not be falsified by non authentic users, 
 In other words...
 At head-fi our only handle there is: JENA Labs and none other.
 At Audio Asylum it is: Nanye Anduril and none else.

 The Jennifer Crock here is a false ID, I think the wise here know that.
 On forums it is so easy to falsely post. Not so easy to crack our website.

 At one time some years ago it was difficult for a manufacturer of products to defend themselves from posting attacks but obviously that silly policy has thankfully changed.

 One last point At the time that the customer paid us our settled fee. It was because it was a justly earned transaction and he knew it, and what is transpiring now is an unjust set of circumstances. We at JENA Labs do not of course expect anyone here save but one to know that, and hold no one here any grudge for that which they do not know.

 "The real" JENA Labs


----------



## Morph201

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sacd lover* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You wonder why?

 Did you ever think he probably looked at the website before the reply was made.

 As for you believing Morph201's treatment was appalling lets revisit the facts. A supposedly complete stanger emails JL and they give him intimate details of a private transaction including the individuals name. Then this indivdual involves himself in the dispute in JL's behalf, that is absolutely none of his business. I guess we will disagree. I believe Morph201 got just exactly what he asked for.

 Regarding this statement ....

 I wish those that this pertains to would take their popcorn to a dogfight or some such or better yet just shove it...

 When you come off your high horse guess what you can kiss.




_

 

Tell me, what did I get exactly? Oh, the chance to expose you for the jackasses you are? Yes, I guess I did accomplish that huh? Fool!


----------



## Morph201

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Riboge* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_First off, it was as much his business as yours. Second, he clearly exercised bad judgment and also underestimated the hair-trigger ill will of such as you. Just how does this give a rational basis for calling him a liar, a shill, etc?

 The most pathetic thing is your thinking that if I speak up for maturity, reserving judgment and basic values of our culture until the facts are known and despite being frustrated or impatient getting them that this places me on a "high horse". That means to me your horse is way below any acceptable moral/ethical ground, making any kissing impossible in addition to being totally repugnant.

 And then, even if there were a basis for your opinion, how does this make the whole thing acceptably a matter of ghoulish entertainment? The available evidence, as opposed to your thinking that your thinking supplants the need for evidence, is that Morph201 was trying to do a good thing in a stupid way and further undermined by JL Lab's great indiscretion in sending their email (and perhaps more, of course). It could turn out it was worse but there is no evidence, only supposition, indicating that._

 

Thanks, I guess...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Anyway, I didn't undermine JL in any way, the fools were against JL from the onset, so it pretty much a no win situation for them here, but we already know how this is going to end, right?


----------



## sacd lover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Tell me, what did I get exactly? Oh, the chance to expose you for the jackasses you are? Yes, I guess I did accomplish that huh? Fool!_

 


 You know exactly what you did. If you dont, your IQ must be in the single digits. Furthermore, you didnt expose anything but your own ignorance.


----------



## jrosenth

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JENA Labs* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ As for the use of a real name... well that individual used our real name... what did he expect. We do expect considerations to be held both ways. We give as we get... 

 Our customers are supremely important to us... However we are not now or in the past, lay downs for abuse... We were not in the wrong. 

 The Jennifer Crock here is a false ID, I think the wise here know that._

 

Holy frick!

 Maybe I'm just not too wise because, frankly, I don't see a whole lot of difference between the attitude expressed in this post and the post by the fake Jennifer.


----------



## aaron313

Dear JENA Labs,

 I am only going to address the name issue that has recently arisen. I take objection to the fact that you seemingly mock *Dr.* BoilingFrog by REPEATEDLY using his first and last name in the open letter on your website. It is customary in written professional conduct to refer to the subject by his full name only ONCE, and thereafter only as Mr./Dr./Mrs [Last Name]. When I read your letter, I became irate that you were simultaneously trying to clear your name, yet also throw more fuel onto the fire by insulting the customer and revealing his identity. Plus, we already knew your name: it was on your website, so what is to be gained by revealing BoilingFrog's name? Please keep the customer's names secret in the future regardless of whatever beef you have with them.


----------



## AC1

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I know for a fact 99% of you would not have the balls to say anything to my face... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

True, but then lets put it this way... 
 In your daily "real" life, then do you take up the cause of defending companies all the time that people around you slander since they've had a bad experiences with them? You know since you have to get the other side of the story as well and make it your business to find out? 

 I'll guess that you don't do that. Then why would you do that here. Oh wait because really all you are is an E-Hero.


----------



## BIG POPPA

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *aaron313* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Dear JENA Labs,

 I am only going to address the name issue that has recently arisen. I take objection to the fact that you seemingly mock *Dr.* BoilingFrog by REPEATEDLY using his first and last name in the open letter on your website. It is customary in written professional conduct to refer to the subject by his full name only ONCE, and thereafter only as Mr./Dr./Mrs [Last Name]. When I read your letter, I became irate that you were simultaneously trying to clear your name, yet also throw more fuel onto the fire by insulting the customer and revealing his identity. Plus, we already knew your name: it was on your website, so what is to be gained by revealing BoilingFrog's name? Please keep the customer's names secret in the future regardless of whatever beef you have with them._

 

Bravo..........Axes are GRINDING!!!!


----------



## powertoold

Quote:


 As for the use of a real name... well that individual used our real name... what did he expect. We do expect considerations to be held both ways. We give as we get. 
 

The excuse JENA Labs used to post Boilingfrog's name is so absurd that I don't doubt their immature treatment of Boilingfrog.

 Since we all know Google CEO's name, that means Google can release all our names! OMG!

 Oh geez, I am just hurling inside at how utterly absurd that line is, LOL!!!!!!


----------



## naamanf

No if they could just release his address and CC information 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Maybe if I write them posing as a concerned citizen of Nigeria they will give the information.


----------



## aaron313

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *powertoold* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The excuse JENA Labs used to post Boilingfrog's name is so absurd that I don't doubt their immature treatment of Boilingfrog.

 Since we all know Google CEO's name, that means Google can release all our names! OMG!

 Oh geez, I am just hurling inside at how utterly absurd that line is, LOL!!!!!!_

 

EXACTLY!!!

 I mean, does JENA Labs really think we are so dense as to mistake that illogical statement for a reasonable justification of its actions? *DO YOU, JENNIFER?!* Is this what you think of your potential customers? Your last name is so appropriate.


----------



## Mr.Sneis

Meh, whatever the truth is there IS an outcome of this whole fiasco. Consumers vote with their dollars & time will tell. 

 At least BF has a working r10 again.


----------



## WittyzTH

JENA Labs, please answer all of these.



  Quote:


 we also noted that on one of the drive units one of the very fine wire strands, a voice coil wire extending from the interior of the drive unit to the solder pad where connections are made, was formed into a slightly protruded loop and had been kinked. 
 

I really want to see pics of these since it's the real problem _not about the original wire and other wire soldering blah blah blah. _

  Quote:


 It is our position that Scott Wasserman's headphones had a defect in place in the form of a malformed voice coil wire, either internally, and/or additionally, externally, on one of the drive units that may have been further deformed or damaged in some manner during the first modification by another person/firm prior to our ever seen the headphones, or that may have been exacerbated by that and/or some other reason, which may include but not be limited to such reasons as playing at excessive sound level or being exposed to DC current in the audio signal being fed to the headphone . 
 

Did you inform him about the defective part? If so, why you didn't fix it, and then put your wire to test how it works? or at least told him you couldn't fix this, and send it back to him because it's defective.

 Moreover, interestingly, if you noticed there was something wrong about the voice coil wire, why you still do put your wire esp. for 2 times without testing how it sounds before sending him back?


  Quote:


 $ 450.00 stock Sony harness install 
 

any explain about this ridiculously price? There's no wire fee, isn't it? how come it could be expensive just removing your wires and putting the stock one instead.


----------



## 909

Even if JL is in the right here, which I find highly unlikely, they have not only done themselves a grave disservice in their defense, but have demonstrated themselves to be a company I can not in good conscience ever do business with either directly or indirectly. As far as I am concerned whether it be here or elsewhere, I will suggest to anyone that might consider their products and/or service to avoid them at all costs--and urge others at minimum to inform the unwitting about this fiasco. JL can point their fingers and keep that measly thousand dollars, may it serve them well.


----------



## Currawong

Wow, what drama I've missed. I'm amazed how people will dig themselves into progressively deeper and deeper holes avoiding doing the simplest things, like saying "sorry" to a customer.

 This strongly discourages me from wanting to buy from any of the MOTs involved in the future (not including Ken, who wasn't involved) as none of them seem to have considered the consequences of their actions.


----------



## manaox2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wow, what drama I've missed. I'm amazed how people will dig themselves into progressively deeper and deeper holes avoiding doing the simplest things, like saying "sorry" to a customer._

 

X2, even if you claim blackmail, it doesn't seem like it would be worth fighting it. Though its descended to owning a ring in hell's circus at this point.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This strongly discourages me from wanting to buy from any of the MOTs involved in the future (not including Ken, who wasn't involved) as none of them seem to have considered the consequences of their actions._

 

I think Alex did the right thing at the customers request. Originally, it was to settle an argument with Jena Labs before ending up on head-fi when things went bad it seems.


----------



## n_maher

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *909* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Even if JL is in the right here, which I find highly unlikely, they have not only done themselves a grave disservice in their defense, but have demonstrated themselves to be a company I can not in good conscience ever do business with either directly or indirectly. As far as I am concerned whether it be here or elsewhere, I will suggest to anyone that might consider their products and/or service to avoid them at all costs--and urge others at minimum to inform the unwitting about this fiasco. JL can point their fingers and keep that measly thousand dollars, may it serve them well._

 

Well said. 

 Jena Lab's have done nothing but prove they are a company that charges a premium price for a service and offers nothing in the way of assurances should they damage the equipment they were trying to modify. Heck, they won't even do you the courtesy of telling you they had to repair your gear while they were working on it. What we've seen here is about the equivalent of taking your car to the mechanic to get new tires and being told after the fact that, oh-by-the-way, we had to replace the engine, and we did so with a re-manufactured unit that doesn't run very well. Hope you don't mind and please still pay us for the tires! Oh wait, we took the tires back because now that your car isn't running you don't need new tires. kthxby!


----------



## skyline889

This thread has gotten quite long since I last visited. What I would like to know is; if Jena Labs is so confident they are in the right here, why have they not filed a libel suit against Boilingfrog? If they had evidence to support their claims, I would think they would like to pursue damages from him. That's what I would try to do if someone was vindictively vowing to "destroy our companies reputation".


----------



## d-cee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *skyline889* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This thread has gotten quite long since I last visited. What I would like to know is; if Jena Labs is so confident they are in the right here, why have they not filed a libel suit against Boilingfrog? If they had evidence to support their claims, I would think they would like to pursue damages from him. That's what I would try to do if someone was vindictively vowing to "destroy our companies reputation". 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Keep up would you? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Googling boilingfrog's real name reveals he could be a Harvard lawyer!


----------



## Sovkiller

One more time, and I hope this will serve as experience for future manufacturers, modders, etc...as soon as you notice that any device have been previously modified by "someone", send them back and period...Never touch anything that has been altered, as you will never know the consequences...


----------



## sacd lover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_One more time, and I hope this will serve as experience for future manufacturers, modders, etc...as soon as you notice that any device have been previously modified by "someone", send them back and period...Never touch anything that has been altered, as you will never know the consequences..._

 


 Your statement probably is good basic advice. But, in this case the damaged drivers were never altered. The cable was cut off before the drivers and the drivers were never removed from the headphone. So, the problem had nothing to do with the prior cable. The problem was the JL mod damaged the drivers.


----------



## xnothingpoetic

JL took down the entire R10 page, and even their response.
http://www.jenalabs.com/headphones/sony-r-10.html

 No where to be found on their site.


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sacd lover* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Your statement probably is good basic advice. But, in this case the damaged drivers were never altered. The cable was cut off before the drivers and the drivers were never removed from the headphone. So, the problem had nothing to do with the prior cable. The problem was the JL mod damaged the drivers._

 

Have any of you guys have ever thought in giving JL a single bit of credibility? What about, if the drivers were originally damaged, not by Mikhail but maybe from the previous owner, or maybe a manufacturer defect, how many times we have seen defective products from the factory, even while very unlikely in this case, given the level of manufacture the R-10 has, it is also a posibility...

 Sorry guys and not trying to offend anybody, but I do not believe, despite all what has been said here, that JL ruined this drivers, even an apprentice, would be careful enough considering the price of those babies...JL has experience, and knowledge to do it right, why doing it wrong? Sorry for me is extremely hard to believe...even an accident is real unlikely IMO, OTOH if you do yor math, they have money enough to cover what they damaged...


----------



## greenhorn

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JENA Labs* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is our reply to all of the thread contents...
 We do have something to say about all of it.
jenalabs headphone mod for sony R10

 enjoy_

 

WELCOME TO HEAD-FI, SORRY FOR YOUR WALLET.


----------



## PFKMan23

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Have any of you guys have ever thought in giving JL a single bit of credibility? What about, if the drivers were originally damaged, not by Mikhail but maybe from the previous owner, or maybe a manufacturer defect, how many times we have seen defective products from the factory, even while very unlikely in this case, given the level of manufacture the R-10 has, it is also a posibility...

 Sorry guys and not trying to offend anybody, but I do not believe, despite all what has been said here, that JL ruined this drivers, even an apprentice, would be careful enough considering the price of those babies...JL has experience, and knowledge to do it right, why doing it wrong? Sorry for me is extremely hard to believe...even an accident is real unlikely IMO, OTOH if you do yor math, they have money enough to cover what they damaged..._

 

Yes the thought did occur to me. However if that was the case, how/why didn't they notice that and tell the owner when the original cable was installed. If your assumption is true, they would have noticed the damage at that time and they should have notified the owner before doing the modifications and subsequently "repairing" them. I have never seen a business act as they do, especially if they have the knowledge of the high value of the item in question. In my mind, that doesn't add up. 

 And they still have the attitude of "even if we broke it, it's not our fault and you still have to pay for it".

 That said I do believe you're right about one thing, they have more than enough money to cover the damage.


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PFKMan23* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes the thought did occur to me. However if that was the case, how/why didn't they notice that and tell the owner when the original cable was installed. If your assumption is true, they would have noticed the damage at that time and they should have notified the owner before doing the modifications and subsequently "repairing" them. I have never seen a business act as they do, especially if they have the knowledge of the high value of the item in question. In my mind, that doesn't add up. 

 And they still have the attitude of "even if we broke it, it's not our fault and you still have to pay for it".

 That said I do believe you're right about one thing, they have more than enough money to cover the damage._

 

Attitude aside, which I feel also that is a result maybe of how the whole story was conducted, I have not acted like them, but not everybody has the same temper, not saying that I'm an angel, but.....Also have you ever thought that they may be pissed because of how the whole event was handled??? Not very porfessional, but honestly I would be pissed, if my reputation is at the stake as they have theirs now, and they feel that they are not at fault as they do...

 Guys nobody can be so irresponsible as to act that way, think for a while again, something is not very clear here, and IMO there are still facts that are not 100% straight to me, from both sides...

 Have you ever dealt with customers yourself, let me tell you that I have been involved in transactions outside and here with Headfi members, that I will regret my whole life, there are individuals that are simply really hard to satisfy, and even while you bend over to do your best, they still complaint...not saying that this is the case, but being in both sides I always give both sides the benefit of the doubt, till I'm 100% convinced of one thing....

 Also you are again making conclussions of what was told and was exposed here, that, could be or not 100% true, it could be partially true, it could be a big misunderstading between both parties, it could be somewhat a lack or proper communication, etc...

 We are talking of professional workers here, with common sense, and a business conducted for years, it is hard for me to believe blindly all this story sorry for being so honest...

 Alex is a nice guy, but IMO he also made a mistake from the tactical point of view. He posted his side of the story, from what he was told by the owner, as he never said anything that he was involved at all in the original transaction or event, and till now there is no evidence that he was present while the problem were discussed by phone, IMO, and unless he actually was, and that is only my opinion, but if I were in his shoes, I would never made any comment regarding this issue public, even if the customer ask me do it. A manufacturer simply should not talk about other manufacturers job publicly, good or bad. Your actions should speak for yourself, simple ethics...Again I have no dog in this fight, and I'm simply making some observations from the outside...next time Alex do yourself that favor...never miss an opportunity of remain in silence, just keep on working they way you usually do and you will be never pointed for being wrong...Just see how Ray, Tyll, Mikhail, Rudi, Drew, and many others conduct their business, you will never see them talking of any event, not related with their own business, that is the way to go IMO... 

 Till now none of the two parties, have convinced me that they are 100% right or wrong...so IMO the truth is still somewhat in the middle...


----------



## Riboge

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sacd lover* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You know exactly what you did. If you dont, your IQ must be in the single digits. Furthermore, you didnt expose anything but your own ignorance._

 

The point I keep making but you keep ducking is that HE may know exactly what he did (by which I take you to mean what he intended with is actions), but YOU DON'T! Are you really unable to back off your omniscient stance and your self-appointment as the Chief Justice of the Court of Public Opinion? So many people have acted in this thread as if this were an approved place for judgments with binding though solely implicit rules about people acting in a certain way and answering your questions at risk of being held in contempt if they don't, etc. Just why does he have to act the way you want him to or else be considered to have "asked for" being judged and punished. It is very common for those who aggress against others to rationalize that their victim asked for it, much as you did.

 This goes for JL Labs as well though there is more basis for disapproving their handling of the situation, that is, some things they clearly did wrong like emailing and posting their client's name and the particulars of the transaction and the unaccommodating tone and actions(at least for a while) of their dealings with him and those who question what happened. Yet it isn't until today that anyone asks about giving them at least some credibility, that is, considering that what they 'testify' is more like evidence than any of the reasons sited for why one should not believe them such as "if that was the case, how/why didn't they notice that and tell the owner when the original cable was installed". There is no sense that this speculation though intelligent does not rule out there being an answer in fact that doesn't involve their lying. It's just not in your ken, or you are continuing to not allow for anything inconsistent with your forgone conclusion...as in a kangaroo court.

 It is not immature, sacd lover, for me to be outraged that so many of you go on like this and to tell you to shove your self-righteously rationalized ugliness and meanness proudly proclaimed to be great fun. People when they find a rationale that helps them elude more mature restraint and judgment just love to savage one another. I don't exclude myself from this, but have learned to admit to myself that this is what it is when I fall prey to it. You should try this, too. And I have learned from practicing psychotherapy over decades that one cannot predict or discern other peoples' reasons for doing things without listening to what they say about it. If they don't say, you can't know but can only guess, usually badly.


----------



## Riboge

While I was writing and posting my just previous post Sovkiller made a statement that I find admirable and I thank him for it.


----------



## Kees

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Attitude aside, which I feel also that is a result maybe of how the whole story was conducted, I have not act like them, but not everybody has the same temper, not saying that I'm an angel, but.....Also have you ever thought that they may be pissed because of how the whole event was handled??? Not very porfessional, but honestly I would be pissed, if my reputation is at the stake as they have theirs now, and they feel that they are not at fault as they do...

 Guys nobody can be so irresponsible as to act that way, think for a while again, something is not very clear here, and IMO there are still facts that are not 100% straight to me, from both sides...

 Have you ever dealt with customers yourself, let me tell you that I have been involved in transactions outside and here with Headfi members, that I will regret my whole life, there are individuals that are simply really hard to satisfy, and even while you bend over to do your best, they still complaint...not saying that this is the case, but being in both sides I always give both sides the benefit of the doubt, till I'm 100% covinced of one thing....

 Also you are again making conclussions of what was told and was exposed here, that, could be or not 100% true, it could be partially true, it could be a big misunderstading between both parties, it could be somewhat a lack or proper communication, etc...

 We are talking of professional workers here, with common sense, and a business conducted for years, it is hard for me to believe blindly all this story sorry for being so honest...

 Alex is a nice guy, but IMO he also made a mistake from the tactical point of view. He posted his side of the story, from what he was told by the owner, as he never said anything that he was involved at all in the original transaction or event, and till now there is evidence that he was present while the problem were discussed by phone, IMO, and unless he actually was, and that is only my opinion, but if I were in his shoes, I would never made any comment regarding this issue public, even if the customer ask me do it. A manufacturer simply should not talk about other manufacturers job publicly, good or bad. Your actions should speak for yourself, simple ethics...Again I have no dog in this fight, and I'm simply making some observations from the outside...next time Alex do yourself that favor...never miss an opportunity of remain in silence, just keep on working they way you usually do and you will be never pointed for being wrong...Just see how Ray, Tyll, Mikhail, Rudi, Drew, and many others conduct their business, you will never see them talking of any event, not related with their own business, that is the way to go IMO... 

 Till now none of the two parties, have convinced me that they are 100% right or wrong...so IMO the truth is still somewhat in the middle...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

On this one I could not agree more with you.
 Well said.


----------



## warpdriver

This will indeed go down as one of the great HeadFi mysteries.


----------



## 2deadeyes

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *xnothingpoetic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_JL took down the entire R10 page, and even their response.
http://www.jenalabs.com/headphones/sony-r-10.html

 No where to be found on their site._

 

Thanks to Google 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




jenalabs headphone mod for sony R10


----------



## 909

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *xnothingpoetic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_JL took down the entire R10 page, and even their response.
http://www.jenalabs.com/headphones/sony-r-10.html

 No where to be found on their site._

 

This is intriguing, telling, and utterly consistent with how they have handled themselves throughout this whole debacle. 

 If I gave it a theme it would be, they know not what they do. It's clear to me now that they do not think before they act, speak or write--they're impulsive and in a perpetual self-serving bias mode. 

 Vaporizing all mention of the R10s from their website evinces a seemingly desperate attempt to make it appear as if they never worked on R10s and this pitiful situation never happened. This looks so freaking shady and it's not as if no one has those pages off JL's website saved. This is one class-act of a company and reaffirms my position that they should be avoided at all cost.


----------



## 909

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *2deadeyes* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks to Google 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




jenalabs headphone mod for sony R10_

 

yeah it should be saved and posted plus someone needs to get and save their reply to this thread too.


----------



## Sovkiller

Another point that you may consider, if Hirsch, or Tyll, or Dr. Meier, markl, or Voltron, or Jude, or Aaron, or Buze, or Jahn, or any other trusty old member come here with a complaint about any company, knowing their reputation we may assume that they are 100% right, but keep in mind that we never heard of that person before comming here just to expose his version of the facts, that IMO are somewhat a little hard to digest, and in a minute, everybody agree and jump in the accusatory wagon, trying to crucify JL....Guys not to be an ass, but why trusting a first poster so blindly, whitout knowing him first, not saying that he is lying but why not taking his post with grain of salt, and at least give the benefit of the doubt to JL... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Everybody took a side before JL made any comment, after they posted their own version, everybody still took the same side, now they remove the info, and everybody is still on the same side, what bother asking then? 

 They simply did what comon sense indicates, if nobody is interested in our version of the facts, why bother to offer them, believe what you want and period...!!!! Trust them that this issue will not affect their business a single bit, they have customers for years and years that trust them and their reputation, they may not have any other from here maybe, but what this represents in their business, numbers talking?

 Guys stop beating a dead horse, the let things settle, I think that everybody got what they wanted now...


----------



## jrosenth

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Another point that you may consider, if Hirsch, or Tyll, or Dr. Meier, markl, or Voltron, or Jude, or Aaron, or Buze, or Jahn, or any other trusty old member come here with a complaint about any company, knowing their reputation we may assume that they are 100% right, but keep in mind that we never heard of that person before comming here just to expose his version of the facts, that IMO are somewhat a little hard to digest, and in a minute, everybody agree and jump in the accusatory wagon, trying to crucify JL....Guys not to be an ass, but why trusting a first poster so blindly, whitout knowing him first, not saying that he is lying but why not taking his post with grain of salt, and at least give the benefit of the doubt to JL... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Everybody took a side before JL made any comment, after they posted their own version, everybody still took the same side, now they remove the info, and everybody is still on the same side, what bother asking then? 

 They simply did what comon sense indicates, if nobody is interested in our version of the facts, why bother to offer them, believe what you want and period...!!!! Trust them that this issue will not affect their business a single bit, they have customers for years and years that trust them and their reputation, they may not have any other from here maybe, but what this represents in their business, numbers talking?

 Guys stop beating a dead horse, the let things settle, I think that everybody got what they wanted now..._

 

Hey Sovkiller,

 Let's say that BH is a total shill and that JL is 100% in the right.

 Question for you as a MOT:

 Would you handle this the way JL did?

 Would you send an email naming the customer to a (supposedly) random customer?

 Would you charge the way JL is admittedly charging (not just amount but for the "work" as they describe in their email)?

 Would you post a customer's full name on your site with an accusation that he's vindictive?

 Would you then come in and post a pretty snarky post when questioned on it?

 Would you then delete the whole page on your site?

 -

 People have questioned BH and Alex's motives and made insinuations, even taken some shots, and you don't see them pulling any of that. I'd like to believe that you wouldn't either.

 That puts put all of you in a very different camp than JL.


----------



## Voltron

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Another point that you may consider, if Hirsch, or Tyll, or Dr. Meier, markl, or Voltron, or Jude, or Aaron, or Buze, or Jahn, or any other trusty old member come here with a complaint about any company, knowing their reputation we may assume that they are 100% right, but keep in mind that we never heard of that person before comming here just to expose his version of the facts, that IMO are somewhat a little hard to digest, and in a minute, everybody agree and jump in the accusatory wagon, trying to crucify JL....Guys not to be an ass, but why trusting a first poster so blindly, whitout knowing him first, not saying that he is lying but why not taking his post with grain of salt, and at least give the benefit of the doubt to JL... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Everybody took a side before JL made any comment, after they posted their own version, everybody still took the same side, now they remove the info, and everybody is still on the same side, what bother asking then? 

 They simply did what comon sense indicates, if nobody is interested in our version of the facts, why bother to offer them, believe what you want and period...!!!! Trust them that this issue will not affect their business a single bit, they have customers for years and years that turst them and their reputation, they may not have any other from here maybe, but what this represents in their business, numbers talking?

 Guys stop beating a dead horse, the let things settle, i think that everybody got what they wanted now..._

 

I appreciate being put in the list of trusty old members Alberto, well except the old part 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, but it seems you are giving all the benefit of the doubt to JL because they are an established company and have experience with headphones. I'm sorry, but they can screw up too. I did not jump on any accusatory wagon, but made an assessment of what facts were available. No, I do not know BoilingFrog but I do have a pretty good sense of Alex and his business that he has built on reputation and experience in the Head-Fi community. I believe him and his analysis, I see the pictures, and I understand he had some dealings with JL directly that backed up what BF told him about his treatment. 

 And once again, I do not agree with your opinion that Alex should keep this to himself. He showed that he could not only do the basic job for a lot less than the "established company" but also that he could repair the damage in a thorough and professional manner. He put his neck out to inform the community of the facts, and if he gets business from it then more power to him. I suggest if you are really unclear about who did what and who is to blame that you re-read the details in his account and the JL account and I think you will discover that there is no way the damage was done by anyone else.

 I also believe that BF had the experience he described based upon the abhorrent behavior of JL since Alex posted his information and this thread started. I simply stupefied how a reputable company -- as I assumed them to be -- could handle a situation the way JL has handled this matter. Providing the name and other private information of a customer to a random third party individual simply because he asked about a thread on Head-Fi is inexcusable. Allowing the pot to boil for several days and then actually posting a direct attack against that customer and including his full name repeatedly on their website is beyond belief. Their posts here on Head-Fi were even more ridiculous, confrontational, immature and to my mind further evidence of their lack of judgment. Now that they have eradicated any reference to R10s or this incident on their site, I guess that JL is just cutting losses and moving on.

 Yes, this type of thread causes a lot of side-taking and even name-calling and other internet behavior that detracts from the point. To me, however, the window dressing is not as important as the core issue and there is no way I will buy a Jena Labs product or any gear containing Jena Labs products because I won't do business with people who conduct their business in the way they THEMSELVES have done here and on their website.


----------



## boomana

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *xnothingpoetic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_JL took down the entire R10 page, and even their response.
jenalabs headphone mod for sony R10

 No where to be found on their site._

 

Out of sight, out of mind.

 As far as giving JenaLabs any benefit of the doubt for the damage caused, I've certainly weighed that in as a possibility, but I have a problem with these issues:

Regarding the Damage


They claim the owner complained of sound problems before they ever had the headphones: 

  Quote:


 After the headphones arrived at our location S.W. specifically asked repeatedly, about the details of sonic qualities we heard in them if we had heard any break-up or intermittent sound from the headphones, which in our limited listening tests at moderate volume levels, we did not hear. 
 

I'm not sure I believe that, but again, giving them benefit of the doubt, why do "limited" tests if they are about to mess around with expensive and difficult R10s. If they are the "experts" they themselves claimed on their website, wouldn't they, as a business, want to limit their liability by checking the complaints out thoroughly, and reporting back to the owner before messing around with them? Apparently not. 

 Oh wait. They did check everything out! They removed the drivers. In fact, they bragged that the previous modder hadn't done so, thus eliminating him as the cause, but later saying he could have been the cause. You can't have it both ways. Strike two to credibility.

 But they then say:  Quote:


 Upon disassembly, we also noted that on one of the drive units one of the very fine wire strands, a voice coil wire extending from the interior of the drive unit to the solder pad where connections are made, was formed into a slightly protruded loop and had been kinked. It should be noted that the other drive unit, nor any other drive units from other examples of the same make and model of headphone that we have seen, or seen photos of, exhibited such a protrusion. This extending loop would in our opinion represent a fault in the original construction. An attempt was made to stabilize this fragile protrusion of very fine wire by locating it adjacent to the physical boundary of the ear speaker frame, and holding it in place with adhesive. This was a trivial operation and not mentioned in any communications. 
 

Now they admit they saw a problem, but never thought to mention it to the owner who had been repeatedly asking about why he heard problems (if true at all)? That makes NO sense whatsoever, especially considering they were sooo busy being proud of the other problems they found and documented on their website. They also say it was a problem of original construction, not Mikhail's recable. All I see is that they want to aim potential blame two separate places (Mikhail, whom they claimed never touched the drivers, and Sony, for their poor construction), all the while admitting they were the ones who removed the drivers, "repaired" the voice coil, and chose to not tell anyone at all. Nothing rings true here. Nothing. But, giving them the benefit of the doubt, let's say all that is true, and move on.

 This is still the first time they've had the headphones. They tested them, and said they sounded great. Jennifer claims they sent them to Ken Ball for him to hear, and Ken reports that she brought them over for him to hear. Either way, I have huge problems with this. Did the owner gave them permission to be carting his headphones all over town? I would personally be furious if anyone just up and decided to transport my R10s to other people without my permission. Permission given or not, I immediately noticed the way the wood cups were placed down on the desk in the pictures Ken provided. Not good, and potentially damaging. Regardless, Ken is innocent in this matter, and shouldn't be getting any flack in this thread or anywhere. He said they also sounded fine. Jena claims they sounded outstanding. Boilingfrog reports not liking the sound, but doesn't complain about the intermittent sound break-ups. He sends them back for a different cable.

 When Boilingfrog sends them back, Jena claims they heard problems, but now blame boilingfrog: 

  Quote:


 This performance fault was CLEARLY not present at the time the headphones were shipped, and we can only conclude that something had happened to them while back in his possession that would cause the fault of occasional sound interruption. Upon disassembly we found the kinked fragile wire that we had discovered the first time the headphones were worked on, to have developed an intermittent open circuit at the point of the pre-existing kink. This defect was easily repaired by soldering a fine copper wire of similar size between the intact end of the voice coil wire, and the solder tab. The repair wire was stabilized by adhering it to the body of
 the drive unit. 
 

So far, they admit to messing with the voice coil twice, but never mentioned either "repair" to anyone? Why keep this a secret? Considering they are already in a dispute over sq with boilingfrog, why hide this? Not once, but twice? Doesn't make sense at all.

Later they say they received the headphones for the third time, but report they arrived disassembled. WTH? They claim they can't do sq tests due to this, but put the stock cable back on. Can boilingfrog confirm he sent the headphones to them this way? Why wouldn't Jena just say, "we won't touch them because we can't hear anything or test anything since you sent them to us disassembled"? Why take that risk, if true? That, again, makes no sense. Instead, they go back into the R10s for a third time? A third time?

Lastly, they claim to have made repairs to the voice coil twice and acknowledged doing three recables which require driver removal. They then announce after Alex discovers their handiwork: 

  Quote:


 That person found the external voice coil wire defect repair job that we had performed at no charge. S.W. phoned and confronted us with the
 existence of the repair, and we freely admitted to performing it. We DID
 NOT in anyway admit verbally or in any other manner to any liability for
 the further repair of the defect, nor are we responsible for such
 repair, even though you were trying very hard to get us to admit so. 
 


 They announce that they've "repaired" the voice coil *twice *and removed the drivers *three times*, didn't even test after the third time, but say, "we are not responsible for such repair." *They make repairs, don't tell anyone, then admit to making them, but deny responsibility. * I can't even wrap my head around this one. Regardless of anything else that has gone on before, just wow.

After the mess came out on the Alex's site and here
Jena states (before deletion) on their own website that morph201, who is not even a customer and a complete stranger to them, emails them with questions about what he's read here. Without batting an eye, they email him compete details of a dispute with a private customer, knowing full well it will be posted at least in part. How freaking unprofessional! 


They publish boilingfrog's real name on their website, and post links here and on audio asylum. I don't care how right or wrong anyone is with anything else or how angry they are as persons, as a company, you just don't do that. If they can do that, why wouldn't they also be equally unethical in every other matter? With every action, they have opened the doors to doubt and suspicion, not the other way around.

 JenaLab's own words make their case completely unbelievable, even if there's a drop of truth to their version of things. With each step of the way, they have acted unprofessionally and/or unethically, and destroyed their own credibility without help from anyone, except maybe morph201, who posted their email to him.

 In a way, we should thank morph201 for allowing us to see how very unethical JenaLabs is willing to be when their back is against the wall. As to morph201's treatment here, he set it up and perpetuated it. If he'd simply said from the beginning he was just a curious guy who emailed them for their side, and this is what he got, he would have received no flack, at least not from me. Instead, he posted little winkies and made cryptic claims that it was "his business." People responded to the garbage he chose to put out, and continued to put out, page after page. He could have stopped it any time he chose, but chose to toy with people for whatever sick reasons he held. He deserves no sympathy.

 I think I'm going to go listen to my stock R10s now and be happy. CanJam is in less than one week. Wonderful MoTs will be there: professional, ethical, talented, and personable. A community of great head-fiers will be hanging out for a couple days, listening to great gear and having fun. At this point, that's what matters to me.


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Voltron* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I appreciate being put in the list of trusty old members Alberto, well except the old part 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, but it seems you are giving all the benefit of the doubt to JL because they are an established company and have experience with headphones. I'm sorry, but they can screw up too. I did not jump on any accusatory wagon, but made an assessment of what facts were available. No, I do not know BoilingFrog but I do have a pretty good sense of Alex and his business that he has built on reputation and experience in the Head-Fi community. I believe him and his analysis, I see the pictures, and I understand he had some dealings with JL directly that backed up what BF told him about his treatment. 

 And once again, I do not agree with your opinion that Alex should keep this to himself. He showed that he could not only do the basic job for a lot less than the "established company" but also that he could repair the damage in a thorough and professional manner. He put his neck out to inform the community of the facts, and if he gets business from it then more power to him. I suggest if you are really unclear about who did what and who is to blame that you re-read the details in his account and the JL account and I think you will discover that there is no way the damage was done by anyone else.

 I also believe that BF had the experience he described based upon the abhorrent behavior of JL since Alex posted his information and this thread started. I simply stupefied how a reputable company -- as I assumed them to be -- could handle a situation the way JL has handled this matter. Providing the name and other private information of a customer to a random third party individual simply because he asked about a thread on Head-Fi is inexcusable. Allowing the pot to boil for several days and then actually posting a direct attack against that customer and including his full name repeatedly on their website is beyond belief. Their posts here on Head-Fi were even more ridiculous, confrontational, immature and to my mind further evidence of their lack of judgment. Now that they have eradicated any reference to R10s or this incident on their site, I guess that JL is just cutting losses and moving on.

 Yes, this type of thread causes a lot of side-taking and even name-calling and other internet behavior that detracts from the point. To me, however, the window dressing is not as important as the core issue and there is no way I will buy a Jena Labs product or any gear containing Jena Labs products because I won't do business with people who conduct their business in the way they THEMSELVES have done here and on their website._

 

They can screw it up too, of course we have seen cases, but just that it has not been proved yet to me, if they did I 100% agree with you...

 About Alex, I feel that posting the repair in their website as an info of resurrecting an heapdhone, and showing the quality of his work, and with all the details he wish, was a good move for his business, but posting info here publicly is a no no in my book...and I even feel a little rather unethical, sorry to disagree with you...

 Of course we all need to know who is good or bad, but I rather leave that to others to post it, not being a dealer or manufacturer in that same field, just a personal point of view, nothing else...and my personal ethics...

 If JL did all what they say they did, I feel really sorry for the owner of those heapdhones, and trust me that I personally would press charges against them for the damages in the small claims court section, I would feel the same way you do, and I agree with all the members that took sides since the first post, now as I do not know the truth behind this, I rather refrain from believing a newbie, than a reputable company, unless I have more elements, whatever was exposed here is not a single fact, all words, that can be said by anybody, and i agree wiht you that the other side has not been very cooperative giving info neither, maybe they do not feel the need...

 What would you think if instead of JL would be Ray Samuels??? Would you also believe him first??? Sorry I will not...


 Now for jrosenth:

 No of course not, everytime I have had a somewhat disatisfied customer trust me that at the end I have lost money, rather than making them pay, I preffer to pay them, all what they have invested in us, and sometimes more, to keep them at least satisfied in that regard...I feel that the custmer is always right, period...Fortunatelly for us, that do not happen to often to me at least, and honestly I have not gotten too many disatisfied customers, most of the times the ones I got, have been fully satisfied customers...with a couple of exceptions of course...

 Names are confidential, of course, for me, and I do not feel Alex made anything wrong, except posting this public here, I would refrain from doing it, if he felt the need of that, that is his prerrogative...About the page I'm so lazy writting that probably I would have never written it...LOL...


----------



## PITTM

I pointed out pages ago how insane giving out the users name and details to an unassociated party(morph) was on Jena's part. Now they post it on their website. How on earth could anyone possibly consider buying something from a company that will post your full name on their website and complain about you. Every audiophile I know now knows full well to stay away from JenaLabs forever. The way she has handled the situation is just diabolically bad. Scott looks like a nice dude from his website though. lol.

 fwiw i know that 99% of people here would not be scared to confront morph in real life. If i saw him at a meet I would tell him what a pos he was acting like in this thread. I would have no intention of starting a fight over it, but if he wanted to I would be fine with it as I am a pretty big athletic dude. The idea of saying "hey you tough guys wouldnt confront me in real life!" after acting like a total ******* jackass to many users on this site EXCLUSIVELY OVER THE INTERNET is pretty hilarious.

 As I said earlier, name ONE other member of the trade company that would have posted the user in question's name. I can't. 0 other companies would have done it. 0 other companies would have such ridiculous prices for a crap product. IMO this makes the decision to not use jenalabs incredibly easy.


----------



## kpeezy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_About Alex, I feel that posting the repair in their website as an info of resurrecting an heapdhone, and showing the quality of his work, and with all the details he wish, was a good move for his business, but posting info here publicly is a no no in my book...and I even feel a little rather unethical, sorry to disagree with you...

 [snip]

 Names are confidential, of course, for me, and I do not feel Alex made anything wrong, except posting this public here, I would refrain from doing it, if he felt the need of that, that is his prerrogative...About the page I'm so lazy writting that probably I would have never written it...LOL..._

 

Alex didn't post this here.


----------



## Morph201

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Another point that you may consider, if Hirsch, or Tyll, or Dr. Meier, markl, or Voltron, or Jude, or Aaron, or Buze, or Jahn, or any other trusty old member come here with a complaint about any company, knowing their reputation we may assume that they are 100% right, but keep in mind that we never heard of that person before comming here just to expose his version of the facts, that IMO are somewhat a little hard to digest, and in a minute, everybody agree and jump in the accusatory wagon, trying to crucify JL....Guys not to be an ass, but why trusting a first poster so blindly, whitout knowing him first, not saying that he is lying but why not taking his post with grain of salt, and at least give the benefit of the doubt to JL... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Everybody took a side before JL made any comment, after they posted their own version, everybody still took the same side, now they remove the info, and everybody is still on the same side, what bother asking then? 

 They simply did what comon sense indicates, if nobody is interested in our version of the facts, why bother to offer them, believe what you want and period...!!!! Trust them that this issue will not affect their business a single bit, they have customers for years and years that trust them and their reputation, they may not have any other from here maybe, but what this represents in their business, numbers talking?

 Guys stop beating a dead horse, the let things settle, I think that everybody got what they wanted now..._

 


 Thanks Sov! At least there's a couple of people on here capable THINKING! I too found it somewhat "odd" that all this info (one side of course) would be taken at face value. 

 Boomana: I never asked for "sympathy" or chose to play the victim, if you intrepreted those words from my threads than that's result of your myopic viewpoint.


----------



## Morph201

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PITTM* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I pointed out pages ago how insane giving out the users name and details to an unassociated party(morph) was on Jena's part. Now they post it on their website. How on earth could anyone possibly consider buying something from a company that will post your full name on their website and complain about you. Every audiophile I know now knows full well to stay away from JenaLabs forever. The way she has handled the situation is just diabolically bad. Scott looks like a nice dude from his website though. lol.

 fwiw i know that 99% of people here would not be scared to confront morph in real life. If i saw him at a meet I would tell him what a pos he was acting like in this thread. I would have no intention of starting a fight over it, but if he wanted to I would be fine with it as I am a pretty big athletic dude. The idea of saying "hey you tough guys wouldnt confront me in real life!" after acting like a total ******* jackass to many users on this site EXCLUSIVELY OVER THE INTERNET is pretty hilarious.

 As I said earlier, name ONE other member of the trade company that would have posted the user in question's name. I can't. 0 other companies would have done it. 0 other companies would have such ridiculous prices for a crap product. IMO this makes the decision to not use jenalabs incredibly easy._

 


 Wow, you're a pretty big athletic dude? And what does that mean? Nothing. Trust me when I say that... Get a grip, get a life, and move on dimwit!


----------



## PITTM

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wow, you're a pretty big athletic dude? And what does that mean? Nothing. Trust me when I say that... Get a grip, get a life, and move on dimwit!_

 

Enough for you to send me the following pm apparently:

 "I saw your thread... If you're serious about that, let me know..."

 If you guys want to ban me for posting a PM, whatever. This was just too awesome.


----------



## Morph201

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PITTM* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Enough for you to send me the following pm apparently:

 "I saw your thread... If you're serious about that, let me know..."

 If you guys want to ban me for posting a PM, whatever. This was just too awesome._

 

Haha... Whatever... tell me what did I say that was sooo bad in my PM?? It's obvious you're a waste,among other things. You're now on ignore.


----------



## [AK]Zip

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Names are confidential, of course, for me, and I do not feel Alex made anything wrong, except posting this public here, I would refrain from doing it, if he felt the need of that, that is his prerrogative...About the page I'm so lazy writting that probably I would have never written it...LOL..._

 

That actually isn't very fair since I didn't even know someone posted it on here until I got an email about it. I did not post it on Head-Fi nor did I have any intension of posting it here otherwise I would have posted as soon as I added it to my site. Boilingfrog was the one who planned on posting it on Head-Fi as it was between him and Jena Labs but someone beat him to it.

 The only times I posted in this thread was to clear up anything that may have been misinterpreted and nothing more than that.

 I am not out to give Jena Labs a bad name. I do feel that what they did was wrong, but it wasn't between Jena Labs and I. I simply repaired the headphones documenting what all was repaired and what I found to be wrong based on my experience with the R10's. I have recabled quite a few of them so I would say I know them quite well including the fact I owned a few pairs myself.

 I also want to make a point that I do not make posts saying oh here look I fix this that X company messed up or did a bad job on simply because it isn't public matter. I do a lot of repairs which I feel are just crazy, but I never post about them simply because it isn't any of my business. If the customer wanted to make comments about it he could. This time was different and it became my business when my customer asked me to document it since Jena Labs no longer wanted to resolve this privately. Again all I did was document the process and post the repair on my site. I did not post it here.

 Thanks,
 Alex


----------



## Morph201

People on here and that OTHER side seem to be scurrying trying to find a cached page. 

 Just click on the link: jenalabs headphone mod for sony R10

 It's still available..


----------



## cantsleep

great weather today. go out, have some fun, and be happy.


----------



## Morph201

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cantsleep* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_great weather today. go out, have some fun, and be happy._

 

X2!


----------



## jrosenth

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ About the page I'm so lazy writting that probably I would have never written it...LOL..._

 

Sovkiller, that's too funny. I was kind of thinking about all the effort that that would demand. Too funny that you noted the same thing


----------



## mark_h

Been out, had fun, saw a guy wearing some nice AT's. All is good.


----------



## Pars

Really good, concise post! 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *boomana* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Out of sight, out of mind.

 As far as giving JenaLabs any benefit of the doubt for the damage caused, I've certainly weighed that in as a possibility, but I have a problem with these issues:

Regarding the Damage


They claim the owner complained of sound problems before they ever had the headphones: 



 I'm not sure I believe that, but again, giving them benefit of the doubt, why do "limited" tests if they are about to mess around with expensive and difficult R10s. If they are the "experts" they themselves claimed on their website, wouldn't they, as a business, want to limit their liability by checking the complaints out thoroughly, and reporting back to the owner before messing around with them? Apparently not.
_

 

Yes, curious. The owner apparently heard things from the Singlepower rewiring? If I was doing mods (and I have done work on other people's equipment), I would definitely note that and take a look. When I saw that the product had been modded before (probably just unpacking them and noting the non-stock cable) I would have contacted the customer to discuss this with them before doing anything else.


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *boomana* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 Oh wait. They did check everything out! They removed the drivers. In fact, they bragged that the previous modder hadn't done so, thus eliminating him as the cause, but later saying he could have been the cause. You can't have it both ways. Strike two to credibility.

 But they then say: 

 Now they admit they saw a problem, but never thought to mention it to the owner who had been repeatedly asking about why he heard problems (if true at all)? That makes NO sense whatsoever, especially considering they were sooo busy being proud of the other problems they found and documented on their website. They also say it was a problem of original construction, not Mikhail's recable. All I see is that they want to aim potential blame two separate places (Mikhail, whom they claimed never touched the drivers, and Sony, for their poor construction), all the while admitting they were the ones who removed the drivers, "repaired" the voice coil, and chose to not tell anyone at all. Nothing rings true here. Nothing. But, giving them the benefit of the doubt, let's say all that is true, and move on.
<snipped>
_

 

This I think is one of the most disturbing aspects of this event... they find a problem, "repair" it (apparently half-assed) and do not *ever* mention it to the owner (until now). If I had been doing this work to a $5K pair of phones (or whatever), I would have stopped and contacted the owner, with perhaps pics of what I saw as damage, and proceed only at the owner's request. And with the owner having a clear understanding of what the risks and possible outcomes would be.


----------



## boomana

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_

 Boomana: I never asked for "sympathy" or chose to play the victim, if you intrepreted those words from my threads than that's result of your myopic viewpoint._

 

I was referring Riboge's defensive of you. You did not ask for sympathy. Your posts asked for responses of suspicion, frustration, and disgust. You toyed with people from the get-go when all they were trying to do was make sense of the situation. You could have made the situation clearer, but you chose the opposite. You refused to answer simple questions, or made statements like:

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It is my business, that's all YOU need to know.. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

You sent me an aggressive pm (I never sent you anything), calling me a troll, when all I wanted to know, like everyone else, was why you had the information you did. Rather than answering, you bullied. You just sent me another pm asking if we can start over. The answer is "NO." At the same time, I will never seek you out in threads or respond unkindly to reasonable posts you make on this site. Since I have never done other, I don't know what you mean by "starting over." Behave like you have on other sites, though, and I will respond as I have there. I've said this before to another member, but it fits here as well: you teach people how to treat you. I don't know what else to say.


----------



## Dominat0r

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Snoop Dogg* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_"with soo much drama in the LBC, its kinda hard being Snoop D-O (double) G.."_

 

Cant we all just get along? I h8 no one, i love you all. 

 God is Love....fin!


----------



## W.T.

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_About Alex, I feel that posting the repair in their website as an info of resurrecting an heapdhone, and showing the quality of his work, and with all the details he wish, was a good move for his business, but posting info here publicly is a no no in my book...and I even feel a little rather unethical, sorry to disagree with you..._

 

Um... maybe you didnt notice, but Alex didnt post this Andrew_WOT did. So, does this mean you are saying you are taking his side? And Alex has only posted to clarify the details on the matter only when there was ambiguity on HIS side of the story. He has been nothing short of frank and honest to clarify the details and present as much FACT as possible.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *boomana* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Out of sight, out of mind.

 As far as giving JenaLabs any benefit of the doubt for the damage caused, I've certainly weighed that in as a possibility, but I have a problem with these issues:

Regarding the Damage


They claim the owner complained of sound problems before they ever had the headphones: 



 I'm not sure I believe that, but again, giving them benefit of the doubt, why do "limited" tests if they are about to mess around with expensive and difficult R10s. If they are the "experts" they themselves claimed on their website, wouldn't they, as a business, want to limit their liability by checking the complaints out thoroughly, and reporting back to the owner before messing around with them? Apparently not. 

 Oh wait. They did check everything out! They removed the drivers. In fact, they bragged that the previous modder hadn't done so, thus eliminating him as the cause, but later saying he could have been the cause. You can't have it both ways. Strike two to credibility.

 But they then say: 

 Now they admit they saw a problem, but never thought to mention it to the owner who had been repeatedly asking about why he heard problems (if true at all)? That makes NO sense whatsoever, especially considering they were sooo busy being proud of the other problems they found and documented on their website. They also say it was a problem of original construction, not Mikhail's recable. All I see is that they want to aim potential blame two separate places (Mikhail, whom they claimed never touched the drivers, and Sony, for their poor construction), all the while admitting they were the ones who removed the drivers, "repaired" the voice coil, and chose to not tell anyone at all. Nothing rings true here. Nothing. But, giving them the benefit of the doubt, let's say all that is true, and move on.

 This is still the first time they've had the headphones. They tested them, and said they sounded great. Jennifer claims they sent them to Ken Ball for him to hear, and Ken reports that she brought them over for him to hear. Either way, I have huge problems with this. Did the owner gave them permission to be carting his headphones all over town? I would personally be furious if anyone just up and decided to transport my R10s to other people without my permission. Permission given or not, I immediately noticed the way the wood cups were placed down on the desk in the pictures Ken provided. Not good, and potentially damaging. Regardless, Ken is innocent in this matter, and shouldn't be getting any flack in this thread or anywhere. He said they also sounded fine. Jena claims they sounded outstanding. Boilingfrog reports not liking the sound, but doesn't complain about the intermittent sound break-ups. He sends them back for a different cable.

 When Boilingfrog sends them back, Jena claims they heard problems, but now blame boilingfrog: 



 So far, they admit to messing with the voice coil twice, but never mentioned either "repair" to anyone? Why keep this a secret? Considering they are already in a dispute over sq with boilingfrog, why hide this? Not once, but twice? Doesn't make sense at all.

Later they say they received the headphones for the third time, but report they arrived disassembled. WTH? They claim they can't do sq tests due to this, but put the stock cable back on. Can boilingfrog confirm he sent the headphones to them this way? Why wouldn't Jena just say, "we won't touch them because we can't hear anything or test anything since you sent them to us disassembled"? Why take that risk, if true? That, again, makes no sense. Instead, they go back into the R10s for a third time? A third time?

Lastly, they claim to have made repairs to the voice coil twice and acknowledged doing three recables which require driver removal. They then announce after Alex discovers their handiwork: 

 They announce that they've "repaired" the voice coil *twice *and removed the drivers *three times*, didn't even test after the third time, but say, "we are not responsible for such repair." *They make repairs, don't tell anyone, then admit to making them, but deny responsibility. * I can't even wrap my head around this one. Regardless of anything else that has gone on before, just wow.

After the mess came out on the Alex's site and here
Jena states (before deletion) on their own website that morph201, who is not even a customer and a complete stranger to them, emails them with questions about what he's read here. Without batting an eye, they email him compete details of a dispute with a private customer, knowing full well it will be posted at least in part. How freaking unprofessional! 


They publish boilingfrog's real name on their website, and post links here and on audio asylum. I don't care how right or wrong anyone is with anything else or how angry they are as persons, as a company, you just don't do that. If they can do that, why wouldn't they also be equally unethical in every other matter? With every action, they have opened the doors to doubt and suspicion, not the other way around.

 JenaLab's own words make their case completely unbelievable, even if there's a drop of truth to their version of things. With each step of the way, they have acted unprofessionally and/or unethically, and destroyed their own credibility without help from anyone, except maybe morph201, who posted their email to him.

 In a way, we should thank morph201 for allowing us to see how very unethical JenaLabs is willing to be when their back is against the wall. As to morph201's treatment here, he set it up and perpetuated it. If he'd simply said from the beginning he was just a curious guy who emailed them for their side, and this is what he got, he would have received no flack, at least not from me. Instead, he posted little winkies and made cryptic claims that it was "his business." People responded to the garbage he chose to put out, and continued to put out, page after page. He could have stopped it any time he chose, but chose to toy with people for whatever sick reasons he held. He deserves no sympathy.

 I think I'm going to go listen to my stock R10s now and be happy. CanJam is in less than one week. Wonderful MoTs will be there: professional, ethical, talented, and personable. A community of great head-fiers will be hanging out for a couple days, listening to great gear and having fun. At this point, that's what matters to me._

 

That is beautiful *brings a tear to my eye*
 Spot on with the details.

 Sovkiller, im not sure where you are confused with the lack of "facts"? Or are you so willing to believe something that has been picked apart and proven to be full of holes? Or are you just trying to play the happy medium in this?

 also - morph. why should anyone offer to meet and talk with you? You will simply will cower and run - much like you do from the legitimate questions that are being asked of you here.

 ~*WT*~

_edit'ed PS:
 i just read through this and i realized that you may take this as a personal attack sovkiller, I am merely curious and wondering why you stand where you stand?_


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kpeezy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Alex didn't post this here._

 

Really, I stopped on page 6, not sure if there is any other post later on, of course I never said he posted here all what he posted in his site, but he posted info pertinent to the case, which is what I find wrong...My personal point of view, I do not feel that you nor anybody else need necesarily to agree with it neither, not even expect that...again he can do what he wants, I have no beef for that, just that I would preffer that personally him, would ahve not done it, as personally I would not do it, same as posting the name of the customer by JL, that was as wrong as well...


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *[AK]Zip* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_They were recabled by JenaLabs. The same headphone was sent back to them 2 times for recable because the customer said that there is something wrong with them when he got them back. I won't get into what all JenaLabs said to him as I believe he will be posting all of this himself here on Head-Fi. In the end he sent them back one last time to get the stock cable put back on and then they made their way to us here at APureSound where I personally worked on the headphones and discovered all of this.

 Thanks,
 Alex_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *[AK]Zip* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_To be fair I was asked to do the write up of everything that was wrong with the R10's by BoilingFrog. The pictures were taken before to show him what all I found because that is what was asked of me. As BoilingFrog said he had no intension of going public until JenaLabs no longer wanted to have anything to do with him at which point he asked me if I can do a write up.

 Thanks,
 Alex_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *[AK]Zip* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Not possible. The voice coil wires are in no way attached directly to the stock cable. Not to mention the fact that Mikhail doesn't remove the drivers from the housing when he opens the headphone for recable for the very reason that he isn't willing to risk damage to the headphone.

 The only way of damaging the R10 or any other driver is if you actually have access to it in which case Mikhail did not since the R10 driver is glued in (once again which is why he doesn't remove them).

 Hope this helps explain some.

 Thanks,
 Alex

 EDIT: And it is easy to prove that Mikhail never removed them for the simple fact that he spliced the upgrade cable right into the stock cable. This requires more time and work than soldering directly to the drivers if you have them removed, but since he never removed them it is much easier and safer to splice into the stock cable than remove the R10 drivers from their wooden housing._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *[AK]Zip* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You could push up 1-2 feet of wire in there until you can't get any more into that housing and you still will not be able to damage the driver. The voice coils are closed off on the driver itself making it impossible to damage them unless you actually pull them out.

 Have a look at the picture below. Driver on the left was never damaged. Driver on the right is what I repaired.





 The voice coil wires are not visible all in either of the drivers. You can only see the solder pads where the cable of your choosing would solder to.

 Anyone who has ever removed these drivers from the housing know because of how they sit inside the housing it is very easy to damage them if you do not know what you are doing when removing the drivers.

 There are many headphones which I would say are fairly simple to remove drivers from and many don't even need to be removed to recable the headphone, but the R10 is something very different even if just removing the ear pads (they are glued on unlike most all others).

 -Alex-_

 




 Sorry Alex, I worded it wrong, while I said that you *feel the need of that*, I'm sure that you did not do it intentionaly, but maybe as you said, just for offer some input to the discussion, and clear things a ittle bit, but IMO intentionally or not, your posts contributed to damage even more, the name and the reputation of another dealer in our field (acting right or wrong, it is not our call to determine that, let others be the judge). Sorry but I do not feel that you should have posted that above info here, even less where you were the one fixing them. 
 That could be, and I'm sure it was by some, misunderstood, and taken the wrong way, as to try to get benefits from the situation, etc...We, specially the old guys here, know that you do not need that, and your work is top notch, and your customer support second to none, so why open the door for malicious misinterpretations of the facts? A healthy advice, next time try to stay away, and let people talk all they want...


----------



## blubliss

I, for one, am very happy that Alex posted here. It afforded me a wealth of knowledge on R10 recabling which I have had done and may have done on a second pair (definitely not by JL).

 I especially like where he refuted the insinuation made by JL that Mikhail had damaged the phones. Not possible.

 Thanks, alex

 I think Boomana stated everything quite eloquently. Thank you.


----------



## kool bubba ice

So if someone ruins someone R10 it should be kept under wraps? So more people with R10's can get theirs ruined too.


----------



## cantsleep

anyways, just in case he says something about his r10 again, i think you (Alex) are pretty much covered.


----------



## greenhorn

Unbelievable how some can mix black and white into a greyish pulp


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kool bubba ice* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So if someone ruins someone R10 it should be kept under wraps? So more people with R10's can get theirs ruined too._

 

Regardless of whatever happen here, I think if I ever own a pair of R-10, and if I ever decided to recable it, it will never go to JL. First they use a completelly unpractical cable, huge, heavy, and extremelly blinky cable...I personally preffer something more like Alex do, or Drew, or others, more like the original one, second I od not see myself ever spending $1500.00 for a clear insulated cooper wire, nor any other neither...


----------



## W.T.

Well wait a second here...

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_... now as I do not know the truth behind this, I rather refrain from believing a newbie, than a reputable company, unless I have more elements, whatever was exposed here is not a single fact, all words, that can be said by anybody..._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_... he posted info pertinent to the case, which is what I find wrong..._

 

You say you have no facts and don't know any facts, yet you admit that Alex posted "info pertinent to the case" - and that he is wrong for doing this. Someone you also claim to be an outstanding person and who runs a reputable company?

 ~*WT*~


----------



## boomana

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pars* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Really good, concise post! 

 Yes, curious. The owner apparently heard things from the Singlepower rewiring? If I was doing mods (and I have done work on other people's equipment), I would definitely note that and take a look. When I saw that the product had been modded before (probably just unpacking them and noting the non-stock cable) I would have contacted the customer to discuss this with them before doing anything else.


 This I think is one of the most disturbing aspects of this event... they find a problem, "repair" it (apparently half-assed) and do not *ever* mention it to the owner (until now). If I had been doing this work to a $5K pair of phones (or whatever), I would have stopped and contacted the owner, with perhaps pics of what I saw as damage, and proceed only at the owner's request. And with the owner having a clear understanding of what the risks and possible outcomes would be._

 


 Either way, it's bad. If they're not telling the truth, that the owner reported problems with intermittent sound and break-ups prior to them opening the headphones, that's as unprofessional as it gets. If they are telling the truth, they're admitting to lacking the most basic common sense, and/or have no procedures in place that even the most unethical car repair shops know to be necessary. They're demonstrating they are unprofessional and dismissive of the customer from day one. Lose-lose for JenaLabs.


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *W.T.* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well wait a second here...

 You say you have no facts and don't know any facts, yet you admit that Alex posted "info pertinent to the case" - and that he is wrong for doing this. Someone you also claim to be an outstanding person and who runs a reputable company?

 ~*WT*~_

 

He posted information, that he beleives was right, about how things happen, but I do not think that he was present while things happen, and probably he is talking for what the customer told him, which he has his prerrogative of trusting or not, but as I do not know him, nor anybody of us, I will take that side fo the story as a grain of salt, period, and he could be right or wrong...same as the other guys at JL...

 If you want to read my posts it is fine, otherwise man, I do not have time to say things time after time...

 I have read all these pages and still I do not feel that any of the two is 100% believable for me...

 Now I'm out, I have better things to do that going in circles in this dead horse beating thread...


----------



## Uncle Erik

Has anyone noticed that there seems to be a relationship between the cost of an item and fraud?

 As the price goes up, the amount of fakery, fraud, charlatanism, scams, snake oil, and plain old BS increases proportionally.

 Money attracts scammers - they see big ticket items and know that anyone buying it has other money to spend. They cook up an ancillary service/product and market it as necessary.

 It's not just audio, all sorts of unnecessary crap is sold with any big ticket item.


----------



## Currawong

Erik: Mainly the amount of noise over the fraud. Seen plenty of scamming even over cheap stuff, it just doesn't involve the fun of police stings and discovering perpetrators that were also running drug labs, had houses full of stolen goods and were wanted in half a dozen states for everything under the sun. Hmmm, yeah, maybe you're right.

 Maybe the amount of idiocy increases as well? What do you think?


----------



## subtle

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Haha... Whatever... tell me what did I say that was sooo bad in my PM?? It's obvious you're a waste,among other things. You're now on ignore._

 

Morph...you are one total delusional wreck.

 It's not that you said something bad in the PM, it's the fact you taunted him via PM trying to be that internet tough guy you're so convinced that you are. Immediately after posting to him that he should "get a grip, get a life and move on" you go out of your way to taunt him via PM?!?

 God you are a mental case and so fun to watch...like a howler monkey at the zoo.


----------



## subtle

Oh, by the way, please feel free to send some e-threats my way via PM. I feel left out and really enjoy receiving them.

 I'm your Huckleberry.


----------



## Morph201

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 I have read all these pages and still I do not feel that any of the two is 100% believable for me...

 Now I'm out, I have better things to do that going in circles in this dead horse beating thread..._

 

I wholeheartedly agree! The only thing left to this thread is a bunch of chest beating and knuckledraggin'! Sheesh!


----------



## Fitz

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I wholeheartedly agree! The only thing left to this thread is a bunch of chest beating and knuckledraggin'! Sheesh!_

 

Don't be so hard on yourself.


----------



## Voltron

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Fitz* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Don't be so hard on yourself._

 

Nicely played. I was thinking of this:


----------



## Fing

I think Morph201 and Sovkiller should commiserate together. Because, you know, it's they who are right and everyone else who is wrong, the poor deluded slobs. Thank goodness we have your awesome light of truth to illuminate the darkness that blinds us from the pearly understanding you clearly possess and gracefully share with us, ungrateful swine.


----------



## Hi-Finthen

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I wholeheartedly agree! The only thing left to this thread is a bunch of chest beating and knuckledraggin'! Sheesh!_

 

And learning who to put on ignore by posts & PMs, as well per advertisements for future business in the case of JennaLabs and their products too!

 Wondering why Morph201 initially alerted me to this thread, and then asked by PM, "Whos side are you on?" ... Leaving me wondering if there was more collusion going on than I at first suspected... (shrugs)

 Enjoy the tunes, all~


----------



## Riboge

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *boomana* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I was referring Riboge's defensive of you. You did not ask for sympathy. Your posts asked for responses of suspicion, frustration, and disgust. You toyed with people from the get-go when all they were trying to do was make sense of the situation. You could have made the situation clearer, but you chose the opposite. You refused to answer simple questions..._

 

You boggle the mind with basic incomprehension underlying impressive but irrelevant justifications. * I made no defense of him* whom I called stupid and of whom I said he showed bad judgment, etc. I was commenting on the likes of you straight out for your over-board indignation and substitution of fascination for your own inner machinations and suppositions for sufficient facts to reach such firm conclusions. I see how he did all that you describe and how aggravating it was. What I don't see is how that justifies your actions or conclusions about anything. His asking for it does not justify or excuse your perpetrating it on him and, worse, enjoying it so much. You must have heard that two wrongs don't make a right very early in your life. That and the golden rule are as simple and fundamental as it gets. No amount of brilliant diatribing overrules either of these.

 You don't like how JL Labs behaved, by all indications to this point, in the face of their customer's complaints and others' subsequent criticisms. I don't either. Nonetheless, that will never rightfully serve to resolve the underlying issue of who did what to a pair of R10s and who should pay or do what as a result. That is at best grey to all so far not matter how desperately many want to establish black or white. Many want to declare they have sufficient reasons not to deal with JL in the future. You don't but also don't need to. You're free to do what you choose. You don't need to convince everyone else to support you in it or to defame anyone as a premise for it.


----------



## Morph201

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Riboge* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You boggle the mind with basic incomprehension underlying impressive but irrelevant justifications. * I made no defense of him* whom I called stupid and of whom I said he showed bad judgment, etc. I was commenting on the likes of you straight out for your over-board indignation and substitution of fascination for your own inner machinations and suppositions for sufficient facts to reach such firm conclusions. I see how he did all that you describe and how aggravating it was. What I don't see is how that justifies your actions or conclusions about anything. His asking for it does not justify or excuse your perpetrating it on him and, worse, enjoying it so much. You must have heard that two wrongs don't make a right very early in your life. That and the golden rule are as simple and fundamental as it gets. No amount of brilliant diatribing overrules either of these.

 You don't like how JL Labs behaved, by all indications to this point, in the face of their customer's complaints and others' subsequent criticisms. I don't either. Nonetheless, that will never rightfully serve to resolve the underlying issue of who did what to a pair of R10s and who should pay or do what as a result. That is at best grey to all so far not matter how desperately many want to establish black or white. Many want to declare they have sufficient reasons not to deal with JL in the future. You don't but also don't need to. You're free to do what you choose. You don't need to convince everyone else to support you in it or to defame anyone as a premise for it._

 


 Ok, Riboge. I have tolerated you enough. Just because my level of "play" is beyond your comprehension, no need for name calling. I mean, I didn't call you a talking\writing baboon, due to your lack of undestanding now did I? Well, now I did, but only because it was necessary at this juncture.

 No need to continue arguing with Boomana, it will be futile. Her hostility towards me is built up of something different that this ... audio gear talk... isn't that right Vicki? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I digress...

 Anyway, there's no need to justify yourself. The stick is broken, my friend.. let it go.


----------



## tcp56

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Fing* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think Morph201 and Sovkiller should commiserate together. Because, you know, it's they who are right and everyone else who is wrong, the poor deluded slobs. Thank goodness we have your awesome light of truth to illuminate the darkness that blinds us from the pearly understanding you clearly possess and gracefully share with us, ungrateful swine._

 


 Wow thats some dark stuff, Fing I think Sovkiller got it right. 

 for Alex to stake his reputation and the reputation of his company to say that "JenaLabs did this" When in fact all he has is the word of a customer that brought him some damaged headphones and a story. That is a limb that alot of people would not be crawling on.


----------



## subtle

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Riboge* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You don't need to convince everyone else to support you in it or to defame anyone as a premise for it._

 

It's a matter of want, not need. Surely someone as bright as yourself, with all of your psychobabble, can understand that concept?


----------



## subtle

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tcp56* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_for Alex to stake his reputation and the reputation of his company to say that "JenaLabs did this" When in fact all he has is the word of a customer that brought him some damaged headphones and a story. That is a limb that alot of people would not be crawling on._

 

Read the entire thread first, comprehend it, then post. In that order.


----------



## Fing

What is truth?

 I can't post the evidence that leads to it more eloquently nor argue it more rationally than has already been done. 

 Alex clearly doesn't share your view and neither do a lot of other people, including a moderator of this forum.


----------



## jrosenth

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No need to continue arguing with Boomana, it will be futile. Her hostility towards me is built up of something different that this ... audio gear talk... isn't that right Vicki? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I digress..._

 

Deleted my comment about this - think it's self-evident.

 I'm out of here.


----------



## vcoheda

this thread seems to have taken its course.


----------



## Fitz

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No need to continue arguing with Boomana, it will be futile. Her hostility towards me is built up of something different that this ... audio gear talk... isn't that right Vicki? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I digress..._

 

Ahhh, this is what is known as "projecting"


----------



## JENA Labs

Hello everyone.
 First please notice the mostly removed < jennifercrock at jenalabs.com> postings. Those postings from the UK were bogus and were removed. 

 We understand that quite often on forums some assumptions will be made that don't always depict an actual sequence of events in the order the evolved.

 That leads to confusion and anger.

 So with a calm mind we have a detailed sequence of actions and states of efforts noted and performed on what must be admitted to be a well traveled set of Sony R-10's

 Perhaps if we realized that these would end up a star attraction we would have better documented every minute with minutia documentation... but we did not assume such would have been necessary. 

 When we received the R-10 the first time they were ALREADY modified.
 * I noticed this on page 32 of this forum message 316*

 "I had mine recabled to go balanced, which did improve them abit. Some people DO know how to recable R10, though all are leary of the expensive risk and most won't hazard it. This is part of why the price is higher than for other recables.

 Mikhail did it. He did not leave short wires that he soldered the new cable to. He was able to remove the driver in my case, so did it in the best way. He tells me he always tries do this first, but if he can't safely remove the driver he resorts to leaving the shortest possible wire to solder to. Clearly reports that he alway cuts and solders are inaccurate and typical of the unfounded assertions and opinions rampant in this thread from all sides."

 If Mikhail did not remove the driver as is his normal approach, ( the first mod prior to JENA Labs receiving these headphones ) Then it was because something alerted him that he should not have done so... What was that abort point for him? How much pushing and pulling occurred before not going any further? 

 We don't know who worked on the headphones before they were sent to us. There are inferences in the chain posting that it may have been Mikhail, but PLEASE DO UNDERSTAND THIS> We Don't know who worked on them first!! And we are not making assertions that it was anyone in particular, it just was not us!

 We only mention this because ultimately we did have to splice a driver coil wire after these were returned on the third time. Perhaps we should have notified Scott of the “kinked” driver coil wire but at that time it was a judgment call to simply fix it with solder, a length of fine wire and placed it with a a few drops of epoxy. We believe that the pushing and pulling of lead wires into and out of the cup during the first rewire job damaged the voice coil wire which led to its eventual failure. We also believe that at the time of original manufacture, the length of voice coil wire between the body of the driver and the terminal was not properly routed, leaving an exposed portion of wire unsupported. Had the phones never been take apart, this would likely never been a problem.

 Note - pictures from start of the thread, page 1 first entry
 The torn urethane spongy material and fabric 'filter' shown in the photos on "A Pure Sound" had already been damaged before we got them. The cushions were also not installed properly, as the 2 metal pins that fit into corresponding alignment holes were not in those holes, and had been simply bent over. The adhesive surface of the cushion that is intended to hold it to the ear cup had very little adhesion left to it. We DID use a series of double coated adhesive strips on the cushions to help them hold in place, as the original adhesive surface would lo longer hold the pads in place. Removing the spongy material and the fabric to gain access to the drive units was a delicate operation. They were stuck down with lots of glue in a manner that we had not seen on other the R10s we had previously worked on.

 When Scott was not happy with the now improved and validated headphones...
 *reviewed and heralded by others than ourselves* (Part of a validation process we employ sometimes to get others to notice the quality of our work... Not casual, very controlled exposure to others qualified to judge. ) 
 ...we said we would put lighter gages of our ultra wire.

 When he returned those, repeat of a full processing of events with a new smaller harness... 
 ...and at that point we said that we would restore to the factory wiring.

 They were sent back to us *_*already disassembled*_* from the head band by an unknown party. We received them in pieces!, missing the entire head. we had to send back the headphones with the stock wire now attached with NO headband and with no way to properly test them. We believe that when someone later did install the headband, they pulled on the wires and again created additional damage.

 This turned out to be a real loose/loose deal for everyone involved. The headphones were already worked on before they were sent to JENA Labs. The sponge material and fabric screening were already messed up and torn here and there, with excess glue used to put it back together before we ever saw them. Lead wires had been spliced poorly with the splice and very stiff solid core wire being shoved back into the ear cup. It is here where we believe the original problem with the voice coil wire developed, being tugged or pushed on by the wire mass being pushed in. We did our best to place the previously damaged urethane foam and screen fabric back in place each time the headphones were apart. We KNOW that some of the damage the Alex found was done before we ever saw the headphones. Some of it was done putting the headband back on by persons unknown, we believe that the ripped lead wires he found was caused by whoever it was that put the headband back on. 
 Several weeks went by after they were returned to Scott the final time before he agreed to pay us anything. Eventually we agreed on only $1000. This was plenty of time for him to have heard any defects and to have said so. Later on they apparently failed and Scott sent them to Alex. Alex found the same original damage to the foam and other elements of the headphones that we did and that we had to deal with. He also found the voice coil wire repair that we performed. This was a repair made because of a condition that PRE-EXISTED our involvement with the headphones. Scott then demanded a refund of $700, and later yet a larger amount in excess of $1000. We refused, citing the preexisting condition and the fact that in the final install of the stock wire he send us the headphones in pieces and we had no control over how there re-disassembled to put a headband back on them. He then threatened to "ruin our reputation" if we didn't pay up, so he went public with it.

 As I said there does seem to be quite a few assumptions on this forum and the exact sequence of events is being assumed rather than understood.

 Perhaps we were brave to attempt to work on pre-distressed headphones but a part of our character is to do what others will not.

 I don't think we need to apologize to anyone, but we have learned from this experience... 
 Something about rare customers.
 Something about forums and chaos.
 And something about never touching someone else's damaged goods.


 JENA Labs.


----------



## azncookiecutter

Get more popcorn: we're in for a long haul here.


----------



## drlee27

Would love to read a response from boilingfrog.


----------



## kool bubba ice

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JENA Labs* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hello everyone.
 First please notice the mostly removed < jennifercrock at jenalabs.com> postings. Those postings from the UK were bogus and were removed. 

 We understand that quite often on forums some assumptions will be made that don't always depict an actual sequence of events in the order the evolved.

 That leads to confusion and anger.

 So with a calm mind we have a detailed sequence of actions and states of efforts noted and performed on what must be admitted to be a well traveled set of Sony R-10's

 Perhaps if we realized that these would end up a star attraction we would have better documented every minute with minutia documentation... but we did not assume such would have been necessary. 

 When we received the R-10 the first time they were ALREADY modified.
 * I noticed this on page 32 of this forum message 316*

 "I had mine recabled to go balanced, which did improve them abit. Some people DO know how to recable R10, though all are leary of the expensive risk and most won't hazard it. This is part of why the price is higher than for other recables.

 Mikhail did it. He did not leave short wires that he soldered the new cable to. He was able to remove the driver in my case, so did it in the best way. He tells me he always tries do this first, but if he can't safely remove the driver he resorts to leaving the shortest possible wire to solder to. Clearly reports that he alway cuts and solders are inaccurate and typical of the unfounded assertions and opinions rampant in this thread from all sides."

 If Mikhail did not remove the driver as is his normal approach, ( the first mod prior to JENA Labs receiving these headphones ) Then it was because something alerted him that he should not have done so... What was that abort point for him? How much pushing and pulling occurred before not going any further? 

 We don't know who worked on the headphones before they were sent to us. There are inferences in the chain posting that it may have been Mikhail, but PLEASE DO UNDERSTAND THIS> We Don't know who worked on them first!! And we are not making assertions that it was anyone in particular, it just was not us!

 We only mention this because ultimately we did have to splice a driver coil wire after these were returned on the third time. Perhaps we should have notified Scott of the “kinked” driver coil wire but at that time it was a judgment call to simply fix it with solder, a length of fine wire and placed it with a a few drops of epoxy. We believe that the pushing and pulling of lead wires into and out of the cup during the first rewire job damaged the voice coil wire which led to its eventual failure. We also believe that at the time of original manufacture, the length of voice coil wire between the body of the driver and the terminal was not properly routed, leaving an exposed portion of wire unsupported. Had the phones never been take apart, this would likely never been a problem.

 Note - pictures from start of the thread, page 1 first entry
 The torn urethane spongy material and fabric 'filter' shown in the photos on "A Pure Sound" had already been damaged before we got them. The cushions were also not installed properly, as the 2 metal pins that fit into corresponding alignment holes were not in those holes, and had been simply bent over. The adhesive surface of the cushion that is intended to hold it to the ear cup had very little adhesion left to it. We DID use a series of double coated adhesive strips on the cushions to help them hold in place, as the original adhesive surface would lo longer hold the pads in place. Removing the spongy material and the fabric to gain access to the drive units was a delicate operation. They were stuck down with lots of glue in a manner that we had not seen on other the R10s we had previously worked on.

 When Scott was not happy with the now improved and validated headphones...
 *reviewed and heralded by others than ourselves* (Part of a validation process we employ sometimes to get others to notice the quality of our work... Not casual, very controlled exposure to others qualified to judge. ) 
 ...we said we would put lighter gages of our ultra wire.

 When he returned those, repeat of a full processing of events with a new smaller harness... 
 ...and at that point we said that we would restore to the factory wiring.

 They were sent back to us *_*already disassembled*_* from the head band by an unknown party. We received them in pieces!, missing the entire head. we had to send back the headphones with the stock wire now attached with NO headband and with no way to properly test them. We believe that when someone later did install the headband, they pulled on the wires and again created additional damage.

 This turned out to be a real loose/loose deal for everyone involved. The headphones were already worked on before they were sent to JENA Labs. The sponge material and fabric screening were already messed up and torn here and there, with excess glue used to put it back together before we ever saw them. Lead wires had been spliced poorly with the splice and very stiff solid core wire being shoved back into the ear cup. It is here where we believe the original problem with the voice coil wire developed, being tugged or pushed on by the wire mass being pushed in. We did our best to place the previously damaged urethane foam and screen fabric back in place each time the headphones were apart. We KNOW that some of the damage the Alex found was done before we ever saw the headphones. Some of it was done putting the headband back on by persons unknown, we believe that the ripped lead wires he found was caused by whoever it was that put the headband back on. 
 Several weeks went by after they were returned to Scott the final time before he agreed to pay us anything. Eventually we agreed on only $1000. This was plenty of time for him to have heard any defects and to have said so. Later on they apparently failed and Scott sent them to Alex. Alex found the same original damage to the foam and other elements of the headphones that we did and that we had to deal with. He also found the voice coil wire repair that we performed. This was a repair made because of a condition that PRE-EXISTED our involvement with the headphones. Scott then demanded a refund of $700, and later yet a larger amount in excess of $1000. We refused, citing the preexisting condition and the fact that in the final install of the stock wire he send us the headphones in pieces and we had no control over how there re-disassembled to put a headband back on them. He then threatened to "ruin our reputation" if we didn't pay up, so he went public with it.

 As I said there does seem to be quite a few assumptions on this forum and the exact sequence of events is being assumed rather than understood.

 Perhaps we were brave to attempt to work on pre-distressed headphones but a part of our character is to do what others will not.

 I don't think we need to apologize to anyone, but we have learned from this experience... 
 Something about rare customers.
 Something about forums and chaos.
 And something about never touching someone else's damaged goods.


 JENA Labs._

 

So Boilfrog is lying?


----------



## FooTemps

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kool bubba ice* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So Boilfrog is lying?_

 

100 page thread confirmed


----------



## Voltron

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kool bubba ice* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So Boilfrog is lying?_

 

According to Jena Labs, BoilingFrog is straight up lying and has threatened them with libelous comments to ruin their reputation. According to Jena Labs, Mikhail must have twisted and turned the drivers to find out he could not get them out. According to Jena Labs, Mikhail and any and all prior owners of the R10s in question caused all PREEXISTING damage, including the damage to the pads and cushions, the voice coil, and perhaps other areas. According to Jena Labs, BoilingFrog and/or Alex reassembled the R10s and caused the "ripped lead wires" that Alex claims he found upon opening up the cans. According to Jena Labs, they did not have to inform their customer of the delicate and serious "repair" they did to the voice coil at any juncture even though they have claimed he was complaining about sound quality and shorting issues. According to Jena Labs, they were entitled to $1000 even though they did not sell BoilingFrog an "upgrade" cable and merely swapped cables on it to rectify deficiencies in the mind of their customer. According to Jena Labs, BoilingFrog is not entitled to a refund of the $1000 because they worked real hard on these cans and shipped them to him 3 times.

 On balance, according to Jena Labs, they did everything right and everybody else behaved badly and caused all of these troubles and all of the damage to the R10s. Puhlease! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I do agree that this is a "loose/loose deal" as Jena Labs suggests: their loose business practices and loose ethics let loose this maelstrom against them. I don't agree that they have learned any lessons from this experience because their latest explanation comes across as disingenuous and as pointless as the rest.


----------



## tom hankins

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JENA Labs* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hello everyone.
 First please notice the mostly removed < jennifercrock at jenalabs.com> postings. Those postings from the UK were bogus and were removed. 

 We understand that quite often on forums some assumptions will be made that don't always depict an actual sequence of events in the order the evolved.

 That leads to confusion and anger.

 So with a calm mind we have a detailed sequence of actions and states of efforts noted and performed on what must be admitted to be a well traveled set of Sony R-10's

 Perhaps if we realized that these would end up a star attraction we would have better documented every minute with minutia documentation... but we did not assume such would have been necessary. 

 When we received the R-10 the first time they were ALREADY modified.
 * I noticed this on page 32 of this forum message 316*

 "I had mine recabled to go balanced, which did improve them abit. Some people DO know how to recable R10, though all are leary of the expensive risk and most won't hazard it. This is part of why the price is higher than for other recables.

 Mikhail did it. He did not leave short wires that he soldered the new cable to. He was able to remove the driver in my case, so did it in the best way. He tells me he always tries do this first, but if he can't safely remove the driver he resorts to leaving the shortest possible wire to solder to. Clearly reports that he alway cuts and solders are inaccurate and typical of the unfounded assertions and opinions rampant in this thread from all sides."

 If Mikhail did not remove the driver as is his normal approach, ( the first mod prior to JENA Labs receiving these headphones ) Then it was because something alerted him that he should not have done so... What was that abort point for him? How much pushing and pulling occurred before not going any further? 

 We don't know who worked on the headphones before they were sent to us. There are inferences in the chain posting that it may have been Mikhail, but PLEASE DO UNDERSTAND THIS> We Don't know who worked on them first!! And we are not making assertions that it was anyone in particular, it just was not us!

 We only mention this because ultimately we did have to splice a driver coil wire after these were returned on the third time. Perhaps we should have notified Scott of the “kinked” driver coil wire but at that time it was a judgment call to simply fix it with solder, a length of fine wire and placed it with a a few drops of epoxy. We believe that the pushing and pulling of lead wires into and out of the cup during the first rewire job damaged the voice coil wire which led to its eventual failure. We also believe that at the time of original manufacture, the length of voice coil wire between the body of the driver and the terminal was not properly routed, leaving an exposed portion of wire unsupported. Had the phones never been take apart, this would likely never been a problem.

 Note - pictures from start of the thread, page 1 first entry
 The torn urethane spongy material and fabric 'filter' shown in the photos on "A Pure Sound" had already been damaged before we got them. The cushions were also not installed properly, as the 2 metal pins that fit into corresponding alignment holes were not in those holes, and had been simply bent over. The adhesive surface of the cushion that is intended to hold it to the ear cup had very little adhesion left to it. We DID use a series of double coated adhesive strips on the cushions to help them hold in place, as the original adhesive surface would lo longer hold the pads in place. Removing the spongy material and the fabric to gain access to the drive units was a delicate operation. They were stuck down with lots of glue in a manner that we had not seen on other the R10s we had previously worked on.

 When Scott was not happy with the now improved and validated headphones...
 *reviewed and heralded by others than ourselves* (Part of a validation process we employ sometimes to get others to notice the quality of our work... Not casual, very controlled exposure to others qualified to judge. ) 
 ...we said we would put lighter gages of our ultra wire.

 When he returned those, repeat of a full processing of events with a new smaller harness... 
 ...and at that point we said that we would restore to the factory wiring.

 They were sent back to us *_*already disassembled*_* from the head band by an unknown party. We received them in pieces!, missing the entire head. we had to send back the headphones with the stock wire now attached with NO headband and with no way to properly test them. We believe that when someone later did install the headband, they pulled on the wires and again created additional damage.

 This turned out to be a real loose/loose deal for everyone involved. The headphones were already worked on before they were sent to JENA Labs. The sponge material and fabric screening were already messed up and torn here and there, with excess glue used to put it back together before we ever saw them. Lead wires had been spliced poorly with the splice and very stiff solid core wire being shoved back into the ear cup. It is here where we believe the original problem with the voice coil wire developed, being tugged or pushed on by the wire mass being pushed in. We did our best to place the previously damaged urethane foam and screen fabric back in place each time the headphones were apart. We KNOW that some of the damage the Alex found was done before we ever saw the headphones. Some of it was done putting the headband back on by persons unknown, we believe that the ripped lead wires he found was caused by whoever it was that put the headband back on. 
 Several weeks went by after they were returned to Scott the final time before he agreed to pay us anything. Eventually we agreed on only $1000. This was plenty of time for him to have heard any defects and to have said so. Later on they apparently failed and Scott sent them to Alex. Alex found the same original damage to the foam and other elements of the headphones that we did and that we had to deal with. He also found the voice coil wire repair that we performed. This was a repair made because of a condition that PRE-EXISTED our involvement with the headphones. Scott then demanded a refund of $700, and later yet a larger amount in excess of $1000. We refused, citing the preexisting condition and the fact that in the final install of the stock wire he send us the headphones in pieces and we had no control over how there re-disassembled to put a headband back on them. He then threatened to "ruin our reputation" if we didn't pay up, so he went public with it.

 As I said there does seem to be quite a few assumptions on this forum and the exact sequence of events is being assumed rather than understood.

 Perhaps we were brave to attempt to work on pre-distressed headphones but a part of our character is to do what others will not.

 I don't think we need to apologize to anyone, but we have learned from this experience... 
 Something about rare customers.
 Something about forums and chaos.
 And something about never touching someone else's damaged goods.


 JENA Labs._

 

In your original add about the rewire you stated that Mikhail had never opened the cups to do the splice. 
 Didnt Boiling frog use the phones with his SDS-XLR for quite some time after Mikhail recabled them balanced with zero problems?
 In other words, werent they fine until they got back from you the first time?
 If they did work fine, how was the voice coil broke when you got them?
 Why didnt you think it was a big deal to tell BF about the problem? Because, it sure looks like you were trying to cover up a screw up on your part by not bringing it to his attention. 
 Originally you never said the phones were damaged, just that the cables were spliced, and you would would not do it that way. 
 This sounds like a total 180 from most of your original add and responce???


----------



## penger

At least they said _something_?


----------



## yepyep_

Hilarious.


----------



## Boilingfrog

Im exhausted from this. Too many lies. In my first conversation with Jennifer I told her I was sending her my R10s that Mikhail had recabled to balanced. Now she says I sent her my phones without even telling her that someone had ever worked on them previously. Did I think she wouldn't notice? That was the whole point in sending them to her in the first place. Of course I told her that Mikhail had recabled them. I had opportunity to speak with Jennifer multiple times over the course of this work. At no point did she even suggest that she had found anything more than the splicing job done previously by Mikhail. There is no question that she is not telling the truth.
 I wish I had a recording of our conversation where I confronted her with the botched repair job. Her silence was an immediate admission of responsibility. This followed by "Well, what do you want?" That first 30 sec of the conversation where she was caught off guard was her only honest communication to date about what really happened.
 Does anyone really think that JL mailed me back my headphones first and then waited several weeks to negotiate payment? OMG. She didn't send them out until I relinquished $1000 through paypal. The documentation of those facts are easy to prove. The reason why I didn't say anything more after the HPs were returned to me the last time was because all the other times I had complained I was told it was my hearing and that the HPs were perfect. Hence the reason I searched elsewhere for answers since clearly they didn't seem to think there was a problem. 
 To those who have suggested that since I am a first time poster I might not be credible I assure you this is not the case as I outined in the beginning. I am reminded now also that it was Tom Hankins who first introduced me to the goodness that is HP listening and Headfi. He is someone else who can speak to my credibility. Thanks Tom.
 All in all the more I see Jennifer post her lies(which are getting worse and worse) the more disgusted I become. I know I don't need to be posting further since she seems to dig her own grave just fine. Just the same some things need to be said.


----------



## Hi-Finthen

JL should have stuck with their first message and messenger, at least that left some doubt; Now they have both spoken up too much and removed all doubt by their own storylines... That's what I've learned...


----------



## PITTM

Even with that explanation, it makes 0 sense why jenalabs didnt mention the damaged driver until like...3 days ago...


----------



## Dominat0r

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Boilingfrog* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Im exhausted from this. Too many lies. In my first conversation with Jennifer I told her I was sending her my R10s that Mikhail had recabled to balanced. Now she says I sent her my phones without even telling her that someone had ever worked on them previously. Did I think she wouldn't notice? That was the whole point in sending them to her in the first place. Of course I told her that Mikhail had recabled them. I had opportunity to speak with Jennifer multiple times over the course of this work. At no point did she even suggest that she had found anything more than the splicing job done previously by Mikhail. There is no question that she is not telling the truth.
 I wish I had a recording of our conversation where I confronted her with the botched repair job. Her silence was an immediate admission of responsibility. This followed by "Well, what do you want?" That first 30 sec of the conversation where she was caught off guard was her only honest communication to date about what really happened.
 Does anyone really think that JL mailed me back my headphones first and then waited several weeks to negotiate payment? OMG. She didn't send them out until I relinquished $1000 through paypal. The documentation of those facts are easy to prove. The reason why I didn't say anything more after the HPs were returned to me the last time was because all the other times I had complained I was told it was my hearing and that the HPs were perfect. Hence the reason I searched elsewhere for answers since clearly they didn't seem to think there was a problem. 
 To those who have suggested that since I am a first time poster I might not be credible I assure you this is not the case as I outined in the beginning. I am reminded now also that it was Tom Hankins who first introduced me to the goodness that is HP listening and Headfi. He is someone else who can speak to my credibility. Thanks Tom.
 All in all the more I see Jennifer post her lies(which are getting worse and worse) the more disgusted I become. I know I don't need to be posting further since she seems to dig her own grave just fine. Just the same some things need to be said._

 

Another thing that would clue her in that it was previously modded was THE NEW CABLE. Obviously if has a new cable on it that someone put it there. 

 I wondered why they didnt tell you about the damages prior to fixing them. I mean, what do you think people will think? Even when you take a car into the shop, they verify that there is any damage on the car prior to make sure people dont say "hey you put a dent on my car".

 When JL opened it up and saw the damage they should of stopped right that second and contacted BF to inform him. Them not doing that only says that they were responsible for the damage and were covering up for it.

 Really sucks this happened to you BF, sorry for your R10s....hope they are all better and back pleasing you ears.


----------



## drlee27

Assuming there was already damage to the headphone when JL received them. They said nothing but went ahead to repair them. Why they did not just stop and inform BF or send them back/decline the repair? Because of greed. They thought they could easily fix the defects and recable the headphones and charge BF an expensive fee.


----------



## Uncle Erik

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JENA Labs* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Had the phones never been take apart, this would likely never been a problem._

 

I agree with this part. The rest... not so much.

 But I do hope Jena Labs keeps posting. The entertainment value continues to climb.


----------



## jp11801

so now JL has essentially pushed the blame to singlepower and bullfrog, this may go down as the most short sighted customer service debacle of all time. At this point JL can't come clean as it kills the slim semblance of integrity they have and it is razor thin at this point. Sad to see a company ruin it's rep over a relatively small amount of cash. A good reputation is built over years of hard work and a poor one is made with one lapse in integrity, like the one we have seen here. I am sure JL will score sales from hapless audio people that fall for their massively overprice cables but for those that do a google search those folks will stay away.


----------



## Dominat0r

I think that if they really did do it, they would of shown more character by fessing up and say they messed up. No body is perfect. We all make mistakes...however how we handle them shows much more. IN the end the $1K they made will never make up for the damage to their rep. 

 In the least i would of not charged him for the work and sent back the headphones. I dont think its fair to charge him to replace the his R10s to stock if he wasnt happy with the work done.


----------



## boomana

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Riboge* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You boggle the mind with basic incomprehension underlying impressive but irrelevant justifications. I made no defense of him whom I called stupid and of whom I said he showed bad judgment, etc. I was commenting on the likes of you straight out for your over-board indignation and substitution of fascination for your own inner machinations and suppositions for sufficient facts to reach such firm conclusions. I see how he did all that you describe and how aggravating it was. What I don't see is how that justifies your actions or conclusions about anything. His asking for it does not justify or excuse your perpetrating it on him and, worse, enjoying it so much. You must have heard that two wrongs don't make a right very early in your life. That and the golden rule are as simple and fundamental as it gets. No amount of brilliant diatribing overrules either of these._

 

My comprehension skills are not lacking. Let's look at your post! Dripping as it is with indignation, black and white judgments of members, and exhibiting every trait you rail against, I comprehend that the irony in this post is pure win! 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Voltron* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_According to Jena Labs, BoilingFrog is straight up lying and has threatened them with libelous comments to ruin their reputation. According to Jena Labs, Mikhail must have twisted and turned the drivers to find out he could not get them out. According to Jena Labs, Mikhail and any and all prior owners of the R10s in question caused all PREEXISTING damage, including the damage to the pads and cushions, the voice coil, and perhaps other areas. According to Jena Labs, BoilingFrog and/or Alex reassembled the R10s and caused the "ripped lead wires" that Alex claims he found upon opening up the cans. According to Jena Labs, they did not have to inform their customer of the delicate and serious "repair" they did to the voice coil at any juncture even though they have claimed he was complaining about sound quality and shorting issues. According to Jena Labs, they were entitled to $1000 even though they did not sell BoilingFrog an "upgrade" cable and merely swapped cables on it to rectify deficiencies in the mind of their customer. According to Jena Labs, BoilingFrog is not entitled to a refund of the $1000 because they worked real hard on these cans and shipped them to him 3 times.

 On balance, according to Jena Labs, they did everything right and everybody else behaved badly and caused all of these troubles and all of the damage to the R10s. Puhlease! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I do agree that this is a "loose/loose deal" as Jena Labs suggests: their loose business practices and loose ethics let loose this maelstrom against them. I don't agree that they have learned any lessons from this experience because their latest explanation comes across as disingenuous and as pointless as the rest._

 

Just about covers it all. Even after JenaLabs's latest damage control post, and boilingfrog's new comments, Voltron's summed it up pretty nicely. JenaLabs's own words take us step by step through loose business practices and looser ethics. They, and only they, created all the problems they have now, regardless of any, if any, prior damage to the R10s. Still they insist they are completely in the right, and everyone else is wrong or misguided. What colossal arrogance! Do they think readers of this forum are blind or stupid to all that they've said and done (emails, website)? We really should give them some kind of award. They've earned it.


----------



## BIG POPPA

What has JENA Labs gained from all this? I'm just frickin' curious? Do they have a cult following? Where has been the wool been pulled? Really?


----------



## Dominat0r

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *BIG POPPA* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What has JENA Labs gained from all this? I'm just frickin' curious? Do they have a cult following? Where has been the wool been pulled? Really?_

 

$1k and a bad rep =( hardly seems worth it...


----------



## BIG POPPA

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HighLife* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_$1k and a bad rep =( hardly seems worth it..._

 

That is just a shame. I could have done without the money myself, if it was me?


----------



## wower

Wow... This thread continues to give...


----------



## WittyzTH

If what JENA said were real (BF lies), is that common to charge the customers 3 times about recabling? (no warranty? no checking if the cable or something else were defective.)

 Also, if the driver was damage, is it fair to recable it without informing him?

 Moreover, is it sincere that you charge him the 2nd time when you know the problem is not the cable, but the driver? 

 Then, is it usual, you offer BF to pay only $1000? (while the regular price you wanted to charge him was about an half of $10,000?) when there were nothing wrong?

 and finally, is it fair that BF paid you $1000 for nothing, but his own R10s with stock wire?


 hope you'll answer these.


----------



## Fungi

Not to mention that Jena Labs advertises themselves as experts on the R10, so there's no reason to have such an absurd charge for working with it either.


----------



## Hardflip

Jena Labs is not saying BF is a liar, they confirmed his basic story, that he sent it in 3 times and it had been breaking out intermittently. So Alex had not placed his trust recklessly. The stories differ in the various entities that JL is finding to blame the broken voice coil on, including the mod the customer did not tell them about (I guess being R10 experts they know they come with balanced inputs) to Sony themselves. Basically everyone but themselves, though they through their own admission were the first ones to remove the driver. They then fix this very serious flaw without telling anyone, squarely placing the cause on themselves. Any repair shop would understand this reality. If you don't disclose it first, you caused it. End of story. Having caused you it, you are obliged to take responsibility for it.

 This is not a judgement from a forum, it is a reality. If they are babes in the woods, sorry, but take the blame, learn the lesson and move on. If you are a business for years, you know this reality, and you almost certaintly caused it and hid your blame, hoping the next person to mod it would take the hit.

 Also, I don't think this is a trivial sum we are talking about. It is not just the lost labor costs (afterall they got back the wire), this is the damaging of a headphone without a pricetag or repair cost. These run for ridiculous amounts, BF could claim the worth for the most one ever went for. It is not easy to write this off depending on your current finances in this poor economy.

 Either BF is a hopeless scammer who just wants cause trouble and spend money to tarnish reputations or he is telling the truth. Why spend thousands on headphones to ruin them yourself to get less back in extortion? JL depiction of this makes no sense and if true should have been handed to the authorities. Instead they fix a potentially fatal damage out of the generousity of their heart and don't tell anyone??? Just does not make sense.


----------



## monolith

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Boilingfrog* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does anyone really think that JL mailed me back my headphones first and then waited several weeks to negotiate payment? OMG. She didn't send them out until I relinquished $1000 through paypal. The documentation of those facts are easy to prove. The reason why I didn't say anything more after the HPs were returned to me the last time was because all the other times I had complained I was told it was my hearing and that the HPs were perfect. Hence the reason I searched elsewhere for answers since clearly they didn't seem to think there was a problem._

 

The fact that they wanted money from you for what they did (let alone the *sheer ridiculousness* of that amount [noting that it's actually *less* then what they claim they charge for a "normal recable"]) is appalling. Appalling! Not only should they have not asked for this, but they should have paid for the APS recable without even having to ask for it.


----------



## aaron313

What do some of you think the odds BF will be fully reimbursed (including the APS recable) eventually are?


----------



## Currawong

arron: probably zero. What will more likely happen is that at some point a search for them on Google brings up this thread on the first page, they'll threaten to sue head-fi if this thread isn't deleted. 

 Then you'll need a ****load more popcorn.

 My offer to Jena Labs: For $4500 I'll teach you how not to destroy your reputation on the internet the next time you have a public customer issue. I have over 15 years experience...


----------



## Riboge

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *boomana* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My comprehension skills are not lacking. Let's look at your post! Dripping as it is with indignation, black and white judgments of members, and exhibiting every trait you rail against, I comprehend that the irony in this post is pure win!_

 

You surely have not demonstrated any comprehension skills here! I did not "rail" against black and white judgments per se but ones based on insufficient evidence--big difference. Since I'm talking about the behavior of many in this thread including you, I have the evidence of your unfounded conclusions and underlying motivation to find opportunities to be viscious and to "win" at others' expense and toward no good end. Two wrongs don't make a right much less two supposed wrongs. As I said before, there is no way you and the mob of popcorns eaters can overrule this try as you may to rationalize this feeding frenzy. *It is disgusting, destructive, and greatly degrading to Head-Fi and its members.*


----------



## sacd lover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Riboge* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You surely have not demonstrated any comprehension skills here! I did not "rail" against black and white judgments per se but ones based on insufficient evidence--big difference. Since I'm talking about the behavior of many in this thread including you, I have the evidence of your unfounded conclusions and underlying motivation to find opportunities to be viscious and to "win" at others' expense and toward no good end. Two wrongs don't make a right much less two supposed wrongs. As I said before, there is no way you and the mob of popcorns eaters can overrule this try as you may to rationalize this feeding frenzy. *It is disgusting, destructive, and greatly degrading to Head-Fi and its members.*_


----------



## cosmic castaway

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Riboge* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You surely have not demonstrated any comprehension skills here! I did not "rail" against black and white judgments per se but ones based on insufficient evidence--big difference. Since I'm talking about the behavior of many in this thread including you, I have the evidence of your unfounded conclusions and underlying motivation to find opportunities to be viscious and to "win" at others' expense and toward no good end. Two wrongs don't make a right much less two supposed wrongs. As I said before, there is no way you and the mob of popcorns eaters can overrule this try as you may to rationalize this feeding frenzy. *It is disgusting, destructive, and greatly degrading to Head-Fi and its members.*_

 

Will you just quit already?

 You seem a little out of topic here..


----------



## xnothingpoetic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JENA Labs* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hello everyone._

 

Hey. Sup?


  Quote:


 We only mention this because ultimately we did have to splice a driver coil wire after these were returned on the third time. _Perhaps we should have notified Scott of the “kinked” driver coil wire but at that time it was a* judgment call*_ 
 

A pretty piss poor one at that. 


  Quote:


 We believe that the pushing and pulling of lead wires into and out of the cup during the first rewire job damaged the voice coil wire which led to its eventual failure. We also believe that at the time of original manufacture, the length of voice coil wire between the body of the driver and the terminal was not properly routed, leaving an exposed portion of wire unsupported. 
 

Why don't you tell us how you really killed them? Because according to YOU, the drivers were [size=medium]NEVER [size=x-small]removed prior to when you got them. See the below quote from your website.

 [/size][/size]_ Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JENA Labs* 
[size=x-small] It was abundantly clear that the headphone cups had *[size=medium]never had the transducers removed[/size]*.[/size]

 

_
 Abundantly clear you say?


  Quote:


 Had the phones never been take apart, this would likely never been a problem. 
 

No ****.



  Quote:


 I don't think we need to apologize to anyone 
 

Apology accepted.


----------



## warpdriver

Whatever doubt I had for Jenalabs being even remotely innocent is gone now. It seems they shot themselves in the foot just fine. Their story just doesn't add up and seems to change with the wind direction.


----------



## wower

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What will more likely happen is that at some point a search for them on Google brings up this thread on the first page, they'll threaten to sue head-fi if this thread isn't deleted. 

 ..................

 My offer to Jena Labs: For $4500 I'll teach you how not to destroy your reputation on the internet the next time you have a public customer issue. I have over 15 years experience... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

hhehehe... I was already searching "JenaLabs r10" and this thread is already on the first page. I've been thinking about this a bit and I think puresounds seems to understands how internet rep works and has built up goodwill in the community. It must be frustrating for the owners of JL; they don't seem to understand the dynamics of a narrow market in a small community. They never woke up thinking they would need to put out an internet forest fire started with one, to them, innocent bad experience.

 And for those (rare people) wanting to censor this thread until there is some sort of suspreme court judgement come down about the case, I say, get serious. I'm an open-minded person and don't think I'm quick to judge, but there is more than enough info here to raise suspicion. Why can't consumers have proper info to make choices? Why should this whole thing be buried leaving the consumer with incomplete info? In fact, I'm so openminded I'm more than willing to see JL make this right. That long post by them was a joke: "no reason to apologize"? That maybe so but in a thread with over 25 000 views, wouldn't a conciliatory tone have been better?


----------



## jrosenth

Just wait until this thread/post starts getting Diggs or migrates to a more mainstream tech site/forum


----------



## ecclesand

Based on the facts presented in this thread, Jena Labs are a bunch of incompetent and dishonest bufoons. I wouldn't buy anything from them if my life depended on it. To everyone that plans to never buy from Jena Labs, that should also carry to any vendor that uses Jena Labs wire in their own products.

 For Jena Labs:


----------



## ephrank

This thread keeps me entertained for hours. Good stuff. Don't stop


----------



## jgonino

I have been reading this thread for the last few days, and now that I have caught up, I have to say I COMPLETELY AGREE with Eccelsand.

 This company stole bunch of money from a customer. If you include the cost of potentially replacing the headphones, JL could have owed BF almost $10k.


----------



## Hi-Finthen

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ephrank* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This thread keeps me entertained for hours. Good stuff. Don't stop _

 

Entertained? What, like you think this is "Funny" ?

 Entertained and funny, like what, a "Clown" is funny and entertaining, is that what you mean to imply?

 Hmmm, Yeah now I see it, a big red nose, floppy shoes with big yellow gloves working furiously, with a maniacal laugh escaping a painted face while working
 on R10s replacing the original cord, for the steal of a price of $1000


----------



## feverfive

Man, I'm still grinding over the fact that Jena Labs repeatedly, publicized BF's real name!! Their "logic" for doing so is beyond ridiculous... They are a company holding themselves out as experts; they sell their services for profit. Thus, their name IS in the public domain. BF is a private citizen, a customer. He presumably does not pay Jena Labs for pecuniary gain, thus his real name is immaterial to this dispute.

 Even given all the other sins of Jena Labs, it is this one that sickens me the most. That they would sell out a customer who they appear to have fleeced goes beyond the pale. This alone will give me motivation to never buy a product or service from Jena Labs, and I will warn anyone I know, in real life & on various internet forums, to avoid Jena Labs. What a text book example of how NOT to handle a customer service dispute...


----------



## cantsleep

I dont know about other audio forums but it seems to me that Jena Labs just lost Headfi.


----------



## manaox2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cantsleep* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I dont know about other audio forums but it seems to me that Jena Labs just lost Headfi._

 

If you search google for "jena R10", you'll see that they also lost audio asylum.


----------



## WittyzTH

why don't we also put this thread on the audiogon forum, wait and see how it grows.


----------



## Riboge

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cosmic castaway* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Will you just quit already?

 You seem a little out of topic here.. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Well, then, please clue me in as to what the topic is at this point. It was abundantly clear after just a few pages that JL Labs handled this whole matter stupidly and self-destructively and that there is plenty of reason to be *suspicious* of bad things (vs. sure of it) about their work and their account of it. It was also clear that was going to be enough for many to decide to take their needs elsewhere. So what has it been about after those things were said dozens of more times in a few more pages? To get absolutely everyone to do so? To see their heads on a pike? What? Lately the only other things stated are about popcorn and low entertainment and about hoping this conflagration of ill-will would spread further and further.

 [Just for the record: I have never once defended any of the parties in regard to the original issues. I have never once suggested any kind of censorship. I have only commented on the process and ugliness of this thread. I am an expert in observing and understanding this sort of thing, and I care about the level of discourse at Head-Fi. If that's a high horse, I'm staying on it. There's plenty of room 'up' here for those who remember what Head-Fi was and could be that is far better than this and many other recent threads.]


----------



## Morph201

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Riboge* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, then, please clue me in as to what the topic is at this point. It was abundantly clear after just a few pages that JL Labs handled this whole matter stupidly and self-destructively and that there is plenty of reason to be *suspicious* of bad things (vs. sure of it) about their work and their account of it. It was also clear that was going to be enough for many to decide to take their needs elsewhere. So what has it been about after those things were said dozens of more times in a few more pages? To get absolutely everyone to do so? To see their heads on a pike? What? Lately the only other things stated are about popcorn and low entertainment and about hoping this conflagration of ill-will would spread further and further.

 [Just for the record: I have never once defended any of the parties in regard to the original issues. I have never once suggested any kind of censorship. I have only commented on the process and ugliness of this thread. I am an expert in observing and understanding this sort of thing, and I care about the level of discourse at Head-Fi. If that's a high horse, I'm staying on it. There's plenty of room 'up' here for those who remember what Head-Fi was and could be that is far better than this and many other recent threads.]_

 


 X2, Glad to see someone else using their brains... Very well put, Riboge... Unfortunately I think a majority of people will turn a deaf (dumb\and blind) ear to your statement and try to stoke this conflagration for a all it's not worth!


----------



## stevenkelby

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_X2, Glad to see someone else using their brains... Very well put, Riboge... Unfortunately I think a majority of people will turn a dead (dumb\and blind) ear to your statement and try to stoke this conflagration for a all it's not worth! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

You may have misunderstood Riboge's sentiments.

 Either that or I have,

 Riboge, is this the high level of discourse you are hoping for?:

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ Get a grip, get a life, and move on dimwit!_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ Oh, the chance to expose you for the jackasses you are? Yes, I guess I did accomplish that huh? Fool!_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ I could really give two craps.._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Obviously you two lack the grey matter to maintain some type of decorum!_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yeah, I'm the dumb shill_


----------



## purk

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_X2, Glad to see someone else using their brains... Very well put, Riboge... Unfortunately I think a majority of people will turn a dead (dumb\and blind) ear to your statement and try to stoke this conflagration for a all it's not worth! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Seriously, next time don't forget to put more thought into posting that e-mail in the first place. Sorry...I've been obseving this thread for awhile now but for you to tell others to use their brains, you should have do the exact same thing in the beginning.


----------



## Morph201

Sure, taken out of context would give it the contradictory appearance.. And I admit I took the less than high road a couple of times.. pity!


----------



## blubliss

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Riboge* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ I am an expert in observing and understanding this sort of thing, and I care about the level of discourse at Head-Fi. If that's a high horse, I'm staying on it. There's plenty of room 'up' here for those who remember what Head-Fi was and could be that is far better than this and many other recent threads.]_

 

From one expert to another, your posts do seem a bit emotional. What is so upsetting. Sure there is some questionable behavior, but why has it gotten you so upset. This thread is quite tame in my professional opinion. Is there a deeper issue here you need to look at?

 (I can already hear the response of, "I was never upset". Think deeply before you post that)


----------



## PITTM

Is there any reason morph isnt banned? Seriously. His posts are: "OH SWEET ANOTHER PERSON MINDLESSLY DEFENDING JENALABS! LET ME TELL THEM THEY ARE SMART AND THAT EVERYONE ELSE IS DUMB!!"


----------



## FooTemps

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PITTM* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is there any reason morph isnt banned? Seriously. His posts are: "OH SWEET ANOTHER PERSON MINDLESSLY DEFENDING JENALABS! LET ME TELL THEM THEY ARE SMART AND THAT EVERYONE ELSE IS DUMB!!"_

 

It's hard to get banned on head-fi. (no ban bets 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)


----------



## Kees

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *blubliss* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_From one expert to another, your posts do seem a bit emotional. What is so upsetting. Sure there is some questionable behavior, but why has it gotten you so upset. This thread is quite tame in my professional opinion. Is there a deeper issue here you need to look at?

 (I can already hear the response of, "I was never upset". Think deeply before you post that)_

 

Just curious: what is your expertise in these matters?
 And what is your expert opinion on this situation (that is, the behaviour of people in this thread)?


----------



## W.T.

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JENA Labs* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_... <snip> ..._

 

Thanks for the response, but i have several questions/points.

 You claim to be the first to remove the driver, and that the damage was there prior to it being removed. You also say that Mikhail did it (verbatim on that part) He did this damage by either removing the driver (which you said he didnt) or by pushing the cable into the cup. However, Alex has said that there is simply no way that the voice coil wire could be damaged in such a manner by doing so, even shoving the whole cable in the cup. I'll take his experience/expertise in this versus yours. (after all he didn't need a piece of wire and epoxy to make the driver worse - er - fix it). 

 Now I do not understand the phase change. How did you guys mess that part up? The R10's aren't some wal-mart $5 pair of headphones to make a mistake like that. Perhaps THAT was part of the original problem once you recabled them the first time. 

 Now lets look at the part that they came from BF with an after market cable already. Im pretty sure that being the R10 experts you are, you would have instantly noticed the non-stock cable. As a business i would have taken this grand opportunity to test my product versus the competition... or to at least SAMPLE the work. Which would, through this test show they sound outstanding (be it better or worse than your offered cables)... or are a flawed pair. I can dive further into this point, but its already been hashed and rehashed...

 And an apology for blatantly disregarding the customer by sending - within hours of this thread's start - an email to a random and then posting his name all over your website would be nice I think? or at least an "oops, my bad..." 

 Also. Your last statement on touching broken/defective goods. Thats a given/elementary concept by any company. You weren't hired/payed to repair them were you? And if they did need the repair, you could/should have charged the customer for it. Even if you didn't and did it for free, good business would state that you at least let the customer know that you will repair this massive flaw in his headphones for free. Thus earning a return customer, maybe for life (oh wow! she saved my $5-6K headphones for free! I'll always goto JL now!).... "fixing" this without telling him? what for? So you guys can sleep easier at night for the outrageous prices? 

 Finally common sense would have definitely raised an eyebrow if BF really DID pester you about sonic quality(which i doubt) the FIRST time they were sent and you noticed the defect. i can only imagine the dialog (if it existed... which i also doubt)
_*BF*: (on the phone with JL) "Is there something wrong with the sound? do you hear something odd? could there be anything that might cause a slight discrepancy in the sound?"_
_*JL*: (staring at the defect voice coil wire) "No... nothing wrong.... noooothing wrong at all. They sound outstanding... something must be wrong with your ears." (takes out a bottle of epoxy). "You have nothing to worry about, we are professionals."_

 Please. As if...

 ~*WT*~


----------



## Morph201

Sorry PITTM, could you speak up? I didn't quite hear you, you're on ignore.. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 *hint* *hint*


----------



## boomana

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Riboge* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, then, please clue me in as to what the topic is at this point. It was abundantly clear after just a few pages that JL Labs handled this whole matter stupidly and self-destructively and that there is plenty of reason to be *suspicious* of bad things (vs. sure of it) about their work and their account of it. It was also clear that was going to be enough for many to decide to take their needs elsewhere. So what has it been about after those things were said dozens of more times in a few more pages? To get absolutely everyone to do so? To see their heads on a pike? What? Lately the only other things stated are about popcorn and low entertainment and about hoping this conflagration of ill-will would spread further and further.

 [Just for the record: I have never once defended any of the parties in regard to the original issues. I have never once suggested any kind of censorship. I have only commented on the process and ugliness of this thread. I am an expert in observing and understanding this sort of thing, and I care about the level of discourse at Head-Fi. If that's a high horse, I'm staying on it. There's plenty of room 'up' here for those who remember what Head-Fi was and could be that is far better than this and many other recent threads.]_

 

You complain about the level of discourse and the conflagration of ill-will, and yet your continuing contributions are the most aggressively nasty in this thread, though couched in highbrow vocabulary as if to elevate (thus excuse?) your very low blows. You are surely this week's King of Irony, and for this, you deserve an award and token of appreciation:







 Carry on.


----------



## sacd lover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PITTM* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is there any reason morph isnt banned? Seriously. His posts are: "OH SWEET ANOTHER PERSON MINDLESSLY DEFENDING JENALABS! LET ME TELL THEM THEY ARE SMART AND THAT EVERYONE ELSE IS DUMB!!"_

 

Now this is a good question.


----------



## zotjen

YEAH, BABY! I finally made it to the end! Instead of working like I should be, I spent most of my morning reading this thread. 

 There is so much I would love to post right now, including something that would blow this thread sky high. But since I'm a calm, collective, and quiet type of guy not interested in adding fuel to the fire, I'll just keep my mouth shut.


----------



## sacd lover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *boomana* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You complain about the level of discourse and the conflagration of ill-will, and yet your continuing contributions are the most aggressively nasty in this thread, though couched in highbrow vocabulary as if to elevate (thus excuse?) your very low blows. You are surely this week's King of Irony, and for this, you deserve an award and token of appreciation:







 Carry on._

 

Hey Booms, can I get one of those to cook some popcorn? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Ribs seems sort of upset and I doubt he will share.


----------



## vulc4n

Okay Head Fi, how do we get this story on Digg?


----------



## jrosenth

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *zotjen* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There is so much I would love to post right now, including something that would blow this thread sky high. But since I'm a calm, collective, and quiet type of guy not interested in adding fuel to the fire, I'll just keep my mouth shut._

 

You can't just say that and leave us hanging.

 Spill the beans.


----------



## Riboge

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *boomana* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You complain about the level of discourse and the conflagration of ill-will, and yet your continuing contributions are the most aggressively nasty in this thread, though couched in highbrow vocabulary as if to elevate (thus excuse?) your very low blows. You are surely this week's King of Irony, and for this, you deserve an award and token of appreciation:

 Carry on._

 

Aggressive, certainly. Nasty, no. I fail to see the irony. There are no "low blows" other than my needing to aim low to reach where you are. Unlike you and others I am not attempting to ruin reputations or do financial or any other kind of harm to anyone. You and others undeniably are. Your responses to me attempt nothing but to ridicule and never address much less answer anything I raise. Just what do you take to be the topic of this thread at this point, save to attempt to ridicule, smear or harm various people who come into your sights?


----------



## Hi-Finthen

Yeah, quit trying to get the truth out, like Riboge said; You are just ruining JLabs reputation at this point!


----------



## WittyzTH

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Riboge* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Unlike you and others I am not attempting to ruin reputations or do financial or any other kind of harm to anyone. You and others undeniably are._

 

I think most of us want to disclose the true story, make this as the case study for other party, and warn other customers to do the business with them (if the story were real.)

 I don't want to see only the final answer who win or lose, or who's right or wrong, but it's interesting to see how they interact with customers and others as one of their market targets. 

 It's all worth even the story turn to either way.


----------



## boomana

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Riboge* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Aggressive, certainly. *Nasty, no. I fail to see the irony. There are no "low blows" other than my needing to aim low to reach where you are. * Unlike you and others I am not attempting to ruin reputations or do financial or any other kind of harm to anyone. You and others undeniably are. Your responses to me attempt nothing but to ridicule and never address much less answer anything I raise. Just what do you take to be the topic of this thread at this point, save to attempt to ridicule, smear or harm various people who come into your sights?_

 

You still fail to see the irony, even in these very words? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 No one set out to ruin anyone's reputation or ruin anyone financially or otherwise. JenaLabs's sent morph201 an email, then posted on their website and in this thread. Readers, including yourself, have simply offered observations on what they gave us to observe. I, and others, gave benefit of the doubt when benefit of the doubt was due, and pointed out the problems we saw as they were given to us to see. If you don't like the tone this thread's taken, don't blame readers. Had Jena made different choices, this thread would have taken a different course.


----------



## Morph201

Interesting how people that have NOTHING invested financially in this are the first to critique and throw "low blows" (and sometimes paste pretty pictures). Obviously there's nothing new to add to this thread, so I will leave the knuckledraggin and chest beatin' to the experts.. Have a good day!


----------



## Riboge

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *boomana* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You still fail to see the irony, even in these very words? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 No one set out to ruin anyone's reputation or ruin anyone financially or otherwise. JenaLabs's sent morph201 an email, then posted on their website and in this thread. Readers, including yourself, have simply offered observations on what they gave us to observe. I, and others, gave benefit of the doubt when benefit of the doubt was due, and pointed out the problems we saw as they were given to us to see. If you don't like the tone this thread's taken, don't blame readers. Had Jena made different choices, this thread would have taken a different course._

 

You are responsible for you own actions. I repeat: Someone "asking for it" does not explain or justify your giving to them. That is your choice and responsibility. Reacting badly to complaints is no justification for trying to harm them beyond others being informed of FACTS and you making a personal decision about any future dealings with them.

 Making the excuses of a child while doing the reputational and financial harm only an adult can do that you are intending and inviting others to do is low. It just is. I have the facts for what I am saying. You don't for all of what you are doing and saying. That's why it's not ironic. There is no equivalence.


----------



## Voltron

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I wholeheartedly agree! The only thing left to this thread is a bunch of chest beating and knuckledraggin'! Sheesh!_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Interesting how people that have NOTHING invested financially in this are the first to critique and throw "low blows" (and sometimes paste pretty pictures). Obviously there's nothing new to add to this thread, so I will leave the knuckledraggin and chest beatin' to the experts.. Have a good day!_

 

I thought you were going to drag your knuckles out of here yesterday.


----------



## sacd lover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Interesting how people that have NOTHING invested financially in this are the first to critique and throw "low blows"._

 

You should take a look into one of these.


----------



## kool bubba ice

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Interesting how people that have NOTHING invested financially in this are the first to critique and throw "low blows" (and sometimes paste pretty pictures). *Obviously there's nothing new to add to this thread,* so I will leave the knuckledraggin and chest beatin' to the experts.. Have a good day!_

 

Yet, you continue to post..


----------



## sacd lover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Riboge* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You are responsible for you own actions. I repeat: Someone "asking for it" does not explain or justify your giving to them. That is your choice and responsibility. Reacting badly to complaints is no justification for trying to harm them beyond others being informed of FACTS and you making a personal decision about any future dealings with them.

 Making the excuses of a child while doing the reputational and financial harm only an adult can do that you are intending and inviting others to do is low. It just is. I have the facts for what I am saying. You don't for all of what you are doing and saying. That's why it's not ironic. There is no equivalence._

 

Just what are those facts? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 All I read is hypocrisy ..... someone ranting and throwing insults while claiming they are taking the high road.


----------



## jrosenth

Hey Riboge, what was you're expertise again? Something about observing on-line communities or something like that. I think I missed it. Would you mind clarifying?

 Oh, morph, you may not be getting the same sort of reactions as I think a lot of folks are blocking/ignoring it. I thought about it, and on one hand it makes a lot of sense. But on the other hand, it's sort of like a car wreck in that the appeal to watch is, despite all common sense to the contrary, sometimes just too strong too ignore.

 I bet morph posts in the next five minutes.


----------



## Riboge

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *blubliss* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_From one expert to another, your posts do seem a bit emotional. What is so upsetting. Sure there is some questionable behavior, but why has it gotten you so upset. This thread is quite tame in my professional opinion. Is there a deeper issue here you need to look at?

 (I can already hear the response of, "I was never upset". Think deeply before you post that)_

 

From one expert to another: it is not very friendly or professional to invite me to do this in a public forum, much less one so inflamed. Likewise about implying that if I see things differently from you I have "a deeper issue", which we all know is code for I must be off the deep end about it. I am replying to you by pm in case your intentions are benign and you really want to know not just lure me into vulnerable exposure. It would also be nice if you do mean well that you make clear here you did not intend this implication.


----------



## immtbiker

I was able to finish _Dante's _"Inferno" and "War and Peace" by _Leo Tolstoy_, back to back, faster than reading this thread from beginning to end. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Relative to those two novels, I would say that some people in this thread better read up, so they know what it's going to be like living in eternal damnation during war times.

 Wow!

 Kindly fill out this simple quiz and see if you are one of them...


----------



## Riboge

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sacd lover* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just what are those facts? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 All I read is hypocrisy ..... someone ranting and throwing insults while claiming they are taking the high road._

 

Oh, please! One thing I'm sure of is being articulate enough that I don't need to repeat what I've written to be understood and that there is an abundance of demonstration of what others have advocated in the way of seeking to do harm to one business while deliberately overlooking doubtful things about other businesses they like, seeking to be sure it spreads to everywhere, showing evil amusement about it all which is good for no one and popcorn, popcorn, popcorn. Read again if you never carefully read before (as seems the case).

 I have acted this way at past times in my life. People are people. But here there is no hypocrisy in decrying the malice, obscene enjoyment of others' misfortune, the hair trigger attacks on people for the way they go about things like asking for the other side to be represented or withhold answers as if this were evidence of some substantive wrongdoing, etc, etc. I am not enjoying this, I have not aimed to harm anyone or to invite harm on anyone. I am not seeking to insult but to be as blunt as possible about what I observe that I object to. I know that those I direct this to will likely feel insulted, but that is not my purpose but rather something I am willing to have happen in order to be frank about what I believe needs to be confronted. If you can't or won't see the difference, I can't help it.


----------



## boomana

Hey, Aaron! How'd you do on that quiz? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Interesting how people that have NOTHING invested financially in this are the first to critique and throw "low blows" (and sometimes paste pretty pictures). Obviously there's nothing new to add to this thread, so I will leave the knuckledraggin and chest beatin' to the experts.. Have a good day!_

 

Only boilingfrog and JenaLabs have anything financially invested in the topic of this thread (maybe Ken Ball and Alex), and they seem to have reached an agreement of purpose. Boilingfrog is trying to save others from making a financial investment with JenaLabs, and JenaLabs's emails, website, and posts in this thread are helping him with that plan beautifully.

 Here's a pasted pretty picture:






 Cats, like people, also like to critique things:


----------



## ecclesand

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Obviously there's nothing new to add to this thread, so I will leave the knuckledraggin and chest beatin' to the experts.. Have a good day!_


----------



## subtle

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Riboge* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*There are no "low blows"* other than my needing to aim low to reach where you are._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Riboge* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I fail to see the irony._

 

You most certainly do. In fact, you pretty much fail on all levels.


----------



## sacd lover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Riboge* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Oh, please! One thing I'm sure of is being articulate enough that I don't need to repeat what I've written to be understood and that there is an abundance of demonstration of what others have advocated in the way of seeking to do harm to one business while deliberately overlooking doubtful things about other businesses they like, seeking to be sure it spreads to everywhere, showing evil amusement about it all which is good for no one and popcorn, popcorn, popcorn. Read again if you never carefully read before (as seems the case).

 I have acted this way at past times in my life. People are people. But here there is no hypocrisy in decrying the malice, obscene enjoyment of others' misfortune, the hair trigger attacks on people for the way they go about things like asking for the other side to be represented or withhold answers as if this were evidence of some substantive wrongdoing, etc, etc. I am not enjoying this, I have not aimed to harm anyone or to invite harm on anyone. I am not seeking to insult but to be as blunt as possible about what I observe that I object to. I know that those I direct this to will likely feel insulted, but that is not my purpose but rather something I am willing to have happen in order to be frank about what I believe needs to be confronted. If you can't or won't see the difference, I can't help it._

 

Articulate? Really .... ever heard of periods. Babbling endlessly is what comes across to me. Maybe you should look closely at what you write? I would love to see my Freshman English teacher critique this one. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




* One thing I'm sure of is being articulate enough that I don't need to repeat what I've written to be understood and that there is an abundance of demonstration of what others have advocated in the way of seeking to do harm to one business while deliberately overlooking doubtful things about other businesses they like, seeking to be sure it spreads to everywhere, showing evil amusement about it all which is good for no one and popcorn, popcorn, popcorn *.

 ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

 Hypocrisy at its best!

 I am not seeking to insult but to be as blunt as possible about what I observe that I object to.

*Read again if you never carefully read before (as seems the case).*

 ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

 Without a doubt, YOU are the one who has lacked the understanding and ability to accept divergent opinions .... and you will continue to do so until you stop being a pompous ass.

 pompous 
 Part of Speech: adjective 
 Definition: Characterized by an exaggerated show of dignity or self-importance.


----------



## sacd lover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *subtle* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You most certainly do. In fact, you pretty much fail on all levels._

 

I like you .... you have common sense.


----------



## subtle

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Morph201* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Interesting how people that have NOTHING invested financially in this are the first to critique and throw "low blows" (and sometimes paste pretty pictures). Obviously there's nothing new to add to this thread, so I will leave the knuckledraggin and chest beatin' to the experts.. Have a good day!_

 

Everybody look! It's a tap dancing howler monkey on a broken record. Look at it go.

 Your use of the word conflagration and "low blows" is beyond humorous, along with your repetition of the knuckle dragging and chest beating drivel. Why don't you just start quoting Riboge's posts and using them as your own reply, word for word? That's essentially what you are already doing, yet putting this college plagiarism twist on it to make it sound as though it's your own thoughts. We all know you aren't pseudo-intellectual enough to actually use the word conflagration in real life.

 Please continue to reply. You are truly the one "making" this thread.


----------



## subtle

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sacd lover* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I like you .... you have common sense. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Thanks man! You obviously do as well and I respect that. I've thoroughly enjoyed the pictures you've provided thus far.

 BTW...a bit off topic...but what is that cool looking amplifier in your avatar? Never seen that one before.


----------



## vcoheda

at this point, it seems that those who continue to post are all guilty, to some degree, of just wanting to continue the argument.

 in truth, this thread has about 5 relevant posts. everything else is mere speculation or interpretation about them.


----------



## FooTemps

i was hoping that this would hit page 60 by the time I left for class...


----------



## sacd lover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *subtle* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks man! You obviously do as well and I respect that. I've thoroughly enjoyed the pictures you've provided thus far.

 BTW...a bit off topic...but what is that cool looking amplifier in your avatar? Never seen that one before._

 

The Darling 1626, a DIY project many build. The amp is a SET based on the 1626 power triode .... delivering 0.75 watt. The tube compliment for the amp shown is a 12sl7gt driving the 1626 x 2. The amp should be here by Friday so I will be giving some impressions soon. 

 This amp does not have a headphone jack so I am converting a senn cable to spades and using the speaker outputs.






















 and here is a good link about the amps ....

Darling Club


----------



## jgonino

That is so awesome!


----------



## Currawong

I must say, the only further useful purpose in Riboge, boomana and the like's posts are the cool pictures people come up to use as replies afterwards.

 I was reading a series of short stories by Rudyard Kipling from around a century ago (Stalky and Co.) where a boy was trapped in an embarrassing situation, after which he was publicly demolished when trying to deny the events. After the demolishing, his mates said to effect, _"If you'd admitted you'd [done it] it would have been a thousand times better."_ A century ago. People never learn...


----------



## drlee27

It seems for certain Jena Labs will lose a lot of business now. But I am curious whether merchants such as ALO will also be affected. Ken uses JL wires in a lot of his mods and I wonder whether head-fi memebers will boycott the use of JL brand wires.


----------



## Currawong

I was wondering that too. I feel sorry for Ken, who's going to be caught up in this as collateral damage. Then again, after a week or two everyone will have forgotten about the drama and just get on with life. Might be interesting to ask him in a couple of months if he's noticed any significant drop in sales.


----------



## dreamwhisper

Great thread


----------



## KB

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I was wondering that too. I feel sorry for Ken, who's going to be caught up in this as collateral damage. Then again, after a week or two everyone will have forgotten about the drama and just get on with life. Might be interesting to ask him in a couple of months if he's noticed any significant drop in sales._

 

Yeah I am sort of high list to be bummed about all this. I have been searching for other suitable conductors for a long time now to use in my builds just so I can have some needed insulation against things like this, supply interruptions or pricing problems. 

 Ken


----------



## Ragonix

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *drlee27* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It seems for certain Jena Labs will lose a lot of business now. But I am curious whether merchants such as ALO will also be affected. Ken uses JL wires in a lot of his mods and I wonder whether head-fi memebers will boycott the use of JL brand wires._

 


 Not necessarily, headphone recabling is a very small market for JL. People will be wary of sending their headphones to JL to recable, but I don't think it'll stop people from buying JL cables or headphones recabled by others even if it uses JL cables.


----------



## kool bubba ice

I still don't understand why Ken agreed with Janna about Boilfrog recabled R10's sounding wonderful.. & *"The Best I heard",* When the owner clearly stated that the headphones sounded very muffled, among other things.. Maybe Ken is covering for Jenna?


----------



## xnothingpoetic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Ragonix* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't think it'll stop people from buying JL cables or headphones recabled by others even if it uses JL cables._

 

I think you may be wrong.

 Ken is in an unfortunate situation. There will be those who will still buy from Ken, but I would bet my entire system that his sales will go down in the following months because of the cables he uses comes from a company not well respected.

 Situations like this happen all too often (non-audio), and the companies like ALO almost always suffer. 

 I hope I am wrong and I hope that will not be the case for Ken. (even though I don't care much for the JL wire from previous experience)


----------



## FooTemps

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *xnothingpoetic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think you may be wrong.

 Ken is in an unfortunate situation. There will be those who will still buy from Ken, but I would bet my entire system that his sales will go down in the following months because of the cables he uses comes from a company not well respected.

 Situations like this happen all too often (non-audio), and the companies like ALO almost always suffer. 

 I hope I am wrong and I hope that will not be the case for Ken. (even though I don't care much for the JL wire from previous experience)_

 

Yeah, I also kinda feel bad for ALO since they are a client of JL. Bad pr like this really can kill sales if you aren't careful. Many people on head-fi understand the situation though so I really hope Ken doesn't lose any customers.


----------



## elnero

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FooTemps* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yeah, I also kinda feel bad for ALO since they are a client of JL. Bad pr like this really can kill sales if you aren't careful. Many people on head-fi understand the situation though so I really hope Ken doesn't lose any customers._

 

I'd imagine it's kind of a catch 22 for some people, they won't want to hurt Ken/ALO but at the same time won't want to support Jena by buying from him.


----------



## 909

ALO should offer customers a choice besides the tarnish JL brand. given the situation it would go a long way and work towards repairing JL's mangled reputation (and benefit ALO too), if JL at minimum refunded BF the $1000 and an additional goodwill gesture would be to reimburse the cost, if any, for the repair job Alex did. in my experience, JL's actions are so typical where a company or even a person accused denies all liability and aren't easily motivated to do much of anything without a little teeth pulling. it's never too late to make amends and doing the right thing even if it's considered a goodwill gesture can be chalked up as a risk/cost of doing business and doesn't necessarily admit fault.


----------



## manaox2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kool bubba ice* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I still don't understand why Ken agreed with Janna about Boilfrog recabled R10's sounding wonderful.. & *"The Best I heard",* When the owner clearly stated that the headphones sounded very muffled, among other things.. Maybe Ken is covering for Jenna?_

 

Don't fall into Jena's trap of including Ken in this. He really has no reason to be blamed.


----------



## Beefy

This thread _delivers_.

 Anyway, I scanned the last 10 pages, and I don't think that this has been mentioned yet:

  Quote:


 At this time JENA Labs is not going to be custom modifying any more products as it is just not a situation were we have full control of all of the parameters of manufacture.
 In part this can be highlighted by an unfortunate incident regarding a set of headphones involved in the review above. To many cooks in the kitchen.

 However independent of any and all uncontrollable situations of custom reworking of other peoples products, is the reality of the superior performance of our Ultra Wire.

 So we are bringing to market a new product.
 A pre-made headphone harness for installation by other manufactures or those so inclined to install for themselves the best headphone cable available.

 The Avenger headphone harness - will be made for easy installation by any competent technician or the talented owner themselves if they feel so inclined.
 A variety of installation components will be included in this kit.

 - More details will follow as the product is developed. 
 

From jenalabs headphone mod for sony R10, updated April 30 - 08

 It seems that Jenalabs has decided to get their nose out of jobs that they are too incompetent to adequately perform.


----------



## mark_h

What has any of this got to do with ALO? Their products are great. Why should one companies apparent error effect another?


----------



## sunneebear

The Avenger headphone harness? Truly doubt that. When this catastrophe makes its round to all the audio forums I doubt Jenalabs will still be in the snake oil business. Whether its HP, ICs, speakers or power cables.


----------



## 883dave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mark_h* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What has any of this got to do with ALO? Their products are great. Why should one companies apparent error effect another?_

 

It is because Jenna has been bleed dry, and to keep this perverse Drama going "they" have to find another company that could just possibly be involved.

 This thread has run it's course and should be closed before another whitchhunt can be started.


----------



## elnero

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mark_h* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What has any of this got to do with ALO? Their products are great. Why should one companies apparent error effect another?_

 

ALO uses Jena Labs wire, by buying products with this cable from ALO you would be indirectly supporting Jena Labs which I'm sure after all this would make more than a few Head-Fier's uncomfortable, hence it becomes a catch 22. It's unfortunate that ALO gets caught in the middle but as 909 suggested offering a non Jena wire alternative might go a long way to alleviating any backlash he might inadvertently feel from all this.


----------



## Kees

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *883dave* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It is because Jenna has been bleed dry, and to keep this perverse Drama going "they" have to find another company that could just possibly be involved.

 This thread has run it's course and should be closed before another whitchhunt can be started._

 

X2.


----------



## elnero

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *883dave* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It is because Jenna has been bleed dry, and to keep this perverse Drama going "they" have to find another company that could just possibly be involved.

 This thread has run it's course and should be closed before another whitchhunt can be started._

 

I don't think there are many people, if any, who are actually suggesting ALO had any type of involvement with what happened, it's more of an unfortunate occurrence that could indirectly affect their sales.


----------



## 883dave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *elnero* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't think there are many people, if any, who are actually suggesting ALO had any type of involvement with what happened, it's more of an unfortunate occurrence that could indirectly affect their sales._

 

Read reply #581.

 This is the nonsense that I was refering too...

 Lets close this thread before the Witchhunt continues


----------



## elnero

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *883dave* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Read reply #581.

 This is the nonsense that I was refering too...

 Lets close this thread before the Witchhunt continues_

 

I admit I thought he was initially joking in his earlier posts and missed that most recent one, regardless though, it's one person and one person does not constitute a witch hunt.


----------



## zotjen

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kool bubba ice* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I still don't understand why Ken agreed with Janna about Boilfrog recabled R10's sounding wonderful.. & *"The Best I heard",* When the owner clearly stated that the headphones sounded very muffled, among other things.. Maybe Ken is covering for Jenna?_

 

People perceive things differently. What may sound muffled to one person may sound wonderful to another (e.g. the Sennheiser veil). This doesn't make either person wrong in their assessment of said headphones.


----------



## warpdriver

If I was Ken from ALO, I'd try to distance myself as much as possible, I'd try to find another supplier ASAP. 

 There is no way I'd ever give my money to JL, and that includes buying their products through ALO. JL will probably continue to thrive despite head-fi'ers scorn whereas ALO will probably suffer the most if he continues to sell products using their parts.


----------



## PITTM

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *manaox2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Don't fall into Jena's trap of including Ken in this. He really has no reason to be blamed._

 

I really don't understand this. Ken gave a very positive review of headphones that were flawed. I feel like someone should be responsible for the quality of their reviews. Too many people just get whatever product they can to review, give it as positive a review as possible and hope to get more. When was the last time you read a BAD review on some audiophile gear by someone in the industry? Don't you think you don't read these because if the reviewer published them they would stop getting gear to review? I have heard "this $400 amp/dac/whatever beats many $2000 amp/dac/whatever's" and it is just an attempt to hype a product as much as possible. I believe if someone gives a broken set of headphones an incredibly positive review they should be held responsible for the content of their review being bogus. I am not saying Ken should take blame for the incident itself or that JL paid him off or whatever people are insinuating, but he should take the blame for a poor, incorrect review.


----------



## elnero

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PITTM* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I really don't understand this. Ken gave a very positive review of headphones that were flawed. I feel like someone should be responsible for the quality of their reviews. Too many people just get whatever product they can to review, give it as positive a review as possible and hope to get more. When was the last time you read a BAD review on some audiophile gear by someone in the industry? Don't you think you don't read these because if the reviewer published them they would stop getting gear to review? I have heard "this $400 amp/dac/whatever beats many $2000 amp/dac/whatever's" and it is just an attempt to hype a product as much as possible. I believe if someone gives a broken set of headphones an incredibly positive review they should be held responsible for the content of their review being bogus. I am not saying Ken should take blame for the incident itself or that JL paid him off or whatever people are insinuating, but he should take the blame for a poor, incorrect review._

 

I'm sorry but I don't necessarily agree with this at all, there's no evidence to say the headphones were actually broken when Ken reviewed them, to say his review was incorrect would IMO be.... well... incorrect. It's obvious Ken likes the sound of Jena wire so it stands to reason he would like a headphone recabled with it but it doesn't necessarily mean that BoilingFrog would have to have the same opinion. 

 As for your comments about positive reviews I suspect the reason is many professional reviewers will send back an item if they really don't think it's up to an expected standard therefore we don't tend to see many really negative reviews. That is speculation on my part though. I'm not a professional reviewer but I've done a few for the site and I know I wouldn't post an overly negative review of a product, instead I would send it back to the supplier with reasons why.


----------



## vcoheda

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *elnero* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_As for your comments about positive reviews I suspect the reason is many professional reviewers will send back an item if they really don't think it's up to an expected standard therefore we don't tend to see many really negative reviews._

 

i've heard this as well. i'm sure there is some truth to it.


----------



## 909

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PITTM* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I really don't understand this. Ken gave a very positive review of headphones that were flawed. I feel like someone should be responsible for the quality of their reviews. Too many people just get whatever product they can to review, give it as positive a review as possible and hope to get more. When was the last time you read a BAD review on some audiophile gear by someone in the industry? Don't you think you don't read these because if the reviewer published them they would stop getting gear to review? I have heard "this $400 amp/dac/whatever beats many $2000 amp/dac/whatever's" and it is just an attempt to hype a product as much as possible. I believe if someone gives a broken set of headphones an incredibly positive review they should be held responsible for the content of their review being bogus. I am not saying Ken should take blame for the incident itself or that JL paid him off or whatever people are insinuating, but he should take the blame for a poor, incorrect review._

 

that's harsh as there are so many variables when it comes to listening impressions and likely in this particular situation the unknown/unclear factors could have resulted in this positive MOT review. however, we shouldn't fault a manufacturer that's in the business of selling the very thing they are critiquing by offering a positive spin as it has the potential to better their bank account. under such a context, consumers must realize they are being sold and they have to rely on their own ears, people that have proven themselves or at least ears they trust. if anything, when a manufacturer doesn't offer a trial period/return policy and especially when it's clouded under the title "return and exchanges" but rambles on and buries it right before the very end that they do NOT accept returns or exchanges doesn't bode well or garner much confidence.


----------



## 909

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *elnero* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_As for your comments about positive reviews I suspect the reason is many professional reviewers will send back an item if they really don't think it's up to an expected standard therefore we don't tend to see many really negative reviews._

 

also can't fail to appreciate that if a person/mag were known to slam products they did not like I seriously doubt any manufacturer would risk having them review their products or support the mag with ads. negative review(s) can adversely affect profits and potentially put these relatively small companies out of business.


----------



## elnero

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *909* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_negative review(s) can adversely affect profits and potentially put these relatively small companies out of business._

 

I've witnessed this in action a long time ago. While it didn't put the company out of business it severely hurt them in the short term which in the long term probably contributed to their going out of business.


----------



## 909

also it's an evil cycle that goes hand and hand whereas a mag that doesn't offer up predominantly positive reviews is unlikely to do well and poised to tank.


----------



## PITTM

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *909* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_we shouldn't fault a manufacturer that's in the business of selling the very thing they are critiquing by offering a positive spin as it has the potential to better their bank account._

 

Wow really? IMO this is EXACTLY what we should be criticizing. Making positive reviews that border on lies just because it will better your bank account is certainly not something that should be accepted by our community. It is stuff like this that makes reviews almost worthless. I know I don't read commercial or MOT reviews anymore because they are ALL positive. Writing a positive review about every single product makes "reviewing" them pointless. It's like if video game magazines just gave every single game a 10.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *909* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_also can't fail to appreciate that if a person/mag were known to slam products they did not like I seriously doubt any manufacturer would risk having them review their products or support the mag with ads. negative review(s) can adversely affect profits and potentially put these relatively small companies out of business._

 

I am in disbelief that I am reading this. So because reviewers can't risk losing manufacturers ads, you have no problem with them ONLY writing positive reviews? It takes away all their credibility in the eyes of the reader and then the advertisers will have no one to advertise to. I'm not suggesting that people should be over the top with their rudeness, but more that reviewers should be honest and lose credibility if they call a broken headphone with crappy cabling a fantastic product and write a rave review about it. I mean think about it, the review is no longer based on the product, but the situation the manufacturer of the product puts reviewers in. This kind of attitude being exposed seems like it should lead to the end of credible, professional audio reviews, which is certainly a bad thing.


----------



## PITTM

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *909* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_also it's an evil cycle that goes hand and hand whereas a mag that doesn't offer up predominantly positive reviews is unlikely to do well and poised to tank._

 

google "jeff gerstman gamespot" and you will see that there is a backlash with regard to magazines buckling to the pressure of advertisers.


----------



## aluren

to be fair to ken at alo, he did review a pair of R-10's, the supposedly king of all headphones. how bad could it have sounded? it's like filet mignon that's over-cooked, it's still better than tri-tip...


----------



## elnero

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PITTM* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wow really? IMO this is EXACTLY what we should be criticizing. Making positive reviews that border on lies just because it will better your bank account is certainly not something that should be accepted by our community. It is stuff like this that makes reviews almost worthless. I know I don't read commercial or MOT reviews anymore because they are ALL positive. Writing a positive review about every single product makes "reviewing" them pointless. It's like if video game magazines just gave every single game a 10._

 

You honestly think a manufacturer is going to post a negative review of a product they manufacture or use on their own website/forum space????

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PITTM* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am in disbelief that I am reading this. So because reviewers can't risk losing manufacturers pull ads, you have no problem with them ONLY writing positive reviews? It takes away all their credibility in the eyes of the reader and then the advertisers will have no one to advertise to. I'm not suggesting that people should be over the top with their rudeness, but more that reviewers should be honest and lose credibility if they call a broken headphone with crappy cabling a fantastic product and write a rave review about it. I mean think about it, the review is no longer based on the product, but the situation the manufacturer of the product puts reviewers in. This kind of attitude being exposed seems like it should lead to the end of credible, professional audio reviews, which is certainly a bad thing._

 

You're kind of jumping all over the place here, on one hand you're implying magazine reviews but then seem to be referring to Ken's review of the R10's which in my view are two separate things. See above for reasons why. 

 Just because a reviewer posts generally positive reviews it does not mean they aren't being honest and it's not necessarily advertising pressure either. Again, I think it's become a matter of responsibility, I think many of the mainstream magazines have seen the effects an overly negative review can have on a company and many choose now to send a piece of gear back with reasons why they can't review it or give them the opportunity to fix glaring flaws if that's the case. I don't doubt there is an element of advertising pressure as well and I don't deny I could be wrong but I don't think these things are as cut and dry as people seem to think they are.


----------



## PITTM

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *elnero* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You honestly think a manufacturer is going to post a negative review of a product they manufacture or use on their own website/forum space????_

 

I was talking more about reviews on webforums/magazines, not on your own website. No one FORCED ken to write an incredibly positive review of a broken headphone for JenaLab's site, I hope... I mean honestly, have you ever seen say, 6moons write a negative review? This is more what I was talking about. My main point was that if you review a pair of broken headphones with a cable that is sub par and say its the greatest thing since sliced bread, you shouldnt be excused for it. I'm not saying Ken is a bad guy or a bad reviewer even, but that it is very troubling that people are giving broken headphones "best ive ever heard" caliber reviews. Maybe we should have people like boilingfrog, who heard veiled muddiness, reviewing headphones.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *elnero* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You're kind of jumping all over the place here, on one hand you're implying magazine reviews but then seem to be referring to Ken's review of the R10's which in my view are two separate things. See above for reasons why._

 

I see your point here. Sorry that I was confusing before.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *elnero* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just because a reviewer posts generally positive reviews it does not mean they aren't being honest and it's not necessarily advertising pressure either. Again, I think it's become a matter of responsibility, I think many of the mainstream magazines have seen the effects an overly negative review can have on a company and many choose now to send a piece of gear back with reasons why they can't review it or give them the opportunity to fix glaring flaws if that's the case. I don't doubt there is an element of advertising pressure as well and I don't deny I could be wrong but I don't think these things are as cut and dry as people seem to think they are._

 

Like I said before. I have never seen a company like 6moons give a product any review besides "WOW THIS SOUNDS BETTER THAN ANYTHING ELSE 10X THE PRICE!!!" which is why I never read their reviews anymore since it is a waste of time. They just aren't in a nonbiased position and therefore can't give credible reviews. I often take my mother out to dinner and she will ask the waiter, "Is _______ good?" To this day, I have never had a waiter/waitress say "not really". I don't see the point of asking a question if you already know what the answer will be no matter what the actual answer SHOULD be.


----------



## sunneebear

This may help Ken out a bit but this is just from my personal experiance. After reading Ken's review of the JL R10s not long ago, I decided to try different braids to see what all the hype was about. 

 I copied the flat multistrand braid like JLs using various cables. Mogami, Canaire, Belden and some Milspec silverplate. My conclusion was that large multistrand = high copper mass = overall warm tone. Preburn braided cable sounds great. Way too airy to the point of some lost detail and imaging but some may like it as headroom or decay. The bass was enormous but just not to my liking. Some may like that sound.

 The problem came after full burn in of the cables. 80-100 hours. The airiness was gone with most of the high end. To me it sounded quite muddy and boomy because the bass had overshadow the other frequencies. I am no engineer so I don't know if the change was due to the high copper content or EFI build up from the braiding configuration or some other law of physics.

 So my my conclusion is that multistrand flat braiding is no good for HPs or ICs. I did not try making speaker cables. So from this I can see why BF would say that the JL UW sounded muddy. Most important is why Ken thought they sounded so good in his review because it may have taken place prior to complete burn in.


----------



## elnero

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PITTM* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No one FORCED ken to write an incredibly positive review of a broken headphone for JenaLab's site_

 

There is no evidence to support this statement that the headphones were "broken" when Ken reviewed them, more likely a difference of preference. From my understanding Ken listened to the R10's after the Jena's first recable, the evidence seems to point to the damage being done when they did the second recable. Of course we don't know anything for sure but to state that Ken reviewed a broken headphone is simply wrong IMO. 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PITTM* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I mean honestly, have you ever seen say, 6moons write a negative review?_

 

Here's one and I don't even really read 6Moons much anymore.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PITTM* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm not saying Ken is a bad guy or a bad reviewer even, but that it is very troubling that people are giving broken headphones "best ive ever heard" caliber reviews. Maybe we should have people like boilingfrog, who heard veiled muddiness, reviewing headphones._

 

Again, there are a lot of factors at play here, personal preference being first and foremost. If I say I think the Sennheiser HD600's sound veiled and muddy does that make it an absolute truth for everyone in every situation?

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PITTM* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Like I said before. I have never seen a company like 6moons give a product any review besides "WOW THIS SOUNDS BETTER THAN ANYTHING ELSE 10X THE PRICE!!!" which is why I never read their reviews anymore since it is a waste of time. They just aren't in a nonbiased position and therefore can't give credible reviews. I often take my mother out to dinner and she will ask the waiter, "Is _______ good?" To this day, I have never had a waiter/waitress say "not really". I don't see the point of asking a question if you already know what the answer will be no matter what the actual answer SHOULD be._

 

If you don't want to read reviews just because they don't typically turn into train wrecks that's you're prerogative, personally I think there is a lot of info that can be garnered even from a glowing review. Generally though, of the reviews I've read in recent years, I've found most to be approached with attempted even handedness describing both the pieces virtues and faults. And again, an overly negative review can do far more damage to a company than people seem to realize. 

 If you want to be stuck on the "all reviews are positive therefore they've been bought and paid for thus useless" train, that's your call. I'm sure in some instances that's the case but as I stated previously, I think there's far more to it than that.

 Oh and FWIW, I've often had a waiter or waitress point me towards one meal over another and even on occasion blatantly say one is crap.


----------



## Beefy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *elnero* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've witnessed this in action a long time ago. While it didn't put the company out of business it severely hurt them in the short term which in the long term probably contributed to their going out of business._

 

Maybe, juuuuuuust maybe........ if they are getting negative reviews, their products are crap....... and it was their crap products that put them out of business???

 On the balance of evidence presented, and the relative maturity of all parties, I'm quite convinced that Jenalabs completely screwed the pooch, and Ken gave glowing reviews to broken headphones. Many may not agree, of course. But they *deserve* to lose my potential business as a result.

 On another note, if the majority are afraid to give negative reviews, then just sending back a bad product helps *nobody*. The company will just keep sending it out until they find a willing shill to give a positive review - and the whole community suffers.

 From my perspective as someone new to the hobby, confirmation bias and shilling are absolutely rife through this community. And I think that everyone will be for the better if people get over their insecurities, are willing to be a little more objective, and a LOT more willing to call a spade a spade.


----------



## elnero

Double post.


----------



## elnero

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Beefy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Maybe, juuuuuuust maybe........ if they are getting negative reviews, their products are crap....... and it was their crap products that put them out of business???_

 

A review is one person opinion based on their personal preferences. I don't think any company should be put out of business because of one review. Unfortunately many people put far too much stock in reviews and this can be the case. Maybe not publishing negative reviews is not the best thing but as I said, having witnessed firsthand the effects of one negative review in a national publication I think it's probably the lesser of two evils.

 Here's the story, I worked briefly at high end audio shop where we had a young guy, maybe early 20's, coming in regularly, he had decided on a particular pair of speakers so while he was saving up he'd come in to take a listen and try them with different associated equipment. Then Stereophile publishes quite a negative review of the speakers and within a week the guy has decided to go with something else even though he admits he still loves his original choice. It's totally irrational but he can't seem to get around the negative review and thinks there must be something wrong with him or his hearing. In my opinion the review was unnecessarily harsh, it was some truth to it but it went over the top which wasn't terribly surprising considering the reviewer and his preferences. This one review pretty much killed all the companies NA sales for a couple of years at least and almost put them out of business altogether. The company eventually did go out of business and I do think the review among other things was a factor in that.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Beefy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_On another note, if the majority are afraid to give negative reviews, then just sending back a bad product helps *nobody*. The company will just keep sending it out until they find a willing shill to give a positive review - and the whole community suffers._

 

You're now talking about posting reviews on HF which I think is a very different case than a review published in a national magazine. If a national magazine sent back a piece and refused to review it, that might give the manufacturer pause but a member on HF sending it back probably wouldn't and it would just be sent on to another member. 

 I've done a few reviews for the community over the years but I by no means consider myself a “reviewer” like some members consider themselves. If a manufacturer sent me a something to try or I bought something myself and totally hated it I'm sure my thoughts would come out in posts but I don't think I could in good conscience, knowing the possible affect it could have, post a full on negative review, I just wouldn't want that responsibility on my shoulders. What I would do is send the piece back and state my reasons for doing so. 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Beefy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_From my perspective as someone new to the hobby, confirmation bias and shilling are absolutely rife through this community. And I think that everyone will be for the better if people get over their insecurities, are willing to be a little more objective, and a LOT more willing to call a spade a spade._

 

I think you're probably right, I'm fairly sure there is an element of shilling going on but I don't think it's as bad as some people think. This is a community made up of audio enthusiasts, we get excited when we hear something new that we like, typically other people around us don't understand our enthusiasm so the result is we post here. That enthusiasm can often be construed as shilling when it's really not, it's just that... enthusiasm.

 Alas, this really has nothing to do with the issue at hand, people will believe what they're going to believe. From what I've read it seems fairly obvious Jena "screwed the pooch" as you say but I don't believe Ken reviewed a "broken" pair of headphones and I don't think he knowingly tried to mislead anyone. I think he's just the poor guy caught in the middle who will probably end up being the one to suffer the most.


----------



## Beefy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *elnero* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think he's just the poor guy caught in the middle who will probably end up being the one to suffer the most._

 

I think that Boilingfrog has suffered _far_ more.


----------



## KB

Hey guys, Just checking in with the thread. I saw some questions that I thought I might give my opinion on.

 I think I addressed the differing views on how the R10s in question sounded. Again, I heard them as sounding wonderful, they are R10s after all. Moreover what I hear will not be exactly what you hear. Boilingfrog did not like them after the first re cable (fair enough), this is personal preference. This is consistent with the 18AWG Ultra Wire because I like the way it sounds for many applications. The line for “best” in high-fi is very blurry or nonexistent. I am not trying to cover for JenaLabs (as someone suggested) when I say I liked the way the R10s sounded. I have made a cable and plugged into one amp and it sounding like poo, took that same IC and used it in another system and it sounded awesome. It really depends on many factors, from your personal preference your source and all the gear you are running the signal through etc.. No I am not trying to back pedal, if I was I would have removed my initial mini review the second I saw all this happening. 

 Ken

 Edit: FWIW - I auditioned the R10s in question after the very first JL re cable, they were re cabled a second time after I heard them and thats when the problem occured.


----------



## elnero

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Beefy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think that Boilingfrog has suffered far more._

 

I'm not trying to diminish Boilingfrogs losses but what I meant is Ken could potentially lose far more financially than Boilingfrog or Jena and have his business hurt far more than Jena as well.


----------



## Beefy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *elnero* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You're now talking about posting reviews on HF_

 

No, I'm not. But it is nevertheless applicable to both scenarios.

  Quote:


 This one review pretty much killed all the companies NA sales for a couple of years at least and almost put them out of business altogether. 
 

Get your hand off it. That would assume that every single one of this company's intended market read that review, and applied it to their entire product line. I find that *VERY* hard to believe.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *KB* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Again, I heard them as sounding wonderful, they are R10s after all._

 

This is EXACTLY the problem I'm talking about. It seems quite clear to me that you were listening to the name of the headphones, rather than the headphones themselves.


----------



## 909

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PITTM* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It is stuff like this that makes reviews almost worthless._

 

bingo--we have a winner!!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PITTM* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ So because reviewers can't risk losing manufacturers ads, you have no problem with them ONLY writing positive reviews?_

 

a problem with it? i am so numb to it, it doesn't phase me anymore. this is the unadulterated crude and unflattering reality, which we are certainly painting with an exceedingly broad and wide brush. 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PITTM* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This kind of attitude being exposed seems like it should lead to the end of credible, professional audio reviews, which is certainly a bad thing._

 

no tude, but hopeful more people open their eyes to this element or at least thinking about it when reading any review. different perspective--it is a very good thing, if readers are skeptical and take these audio reviews with a big grain of salt.


----------



## elnero

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Beefy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Get your hand off it. That would assume that every single one of this company's intended market read that review, and applied it to their entire product line. I find that *VERY* hard to believe._

 

Believe what you like, I actually worked for the company a couple of years after the fact so I know what the situation was when I started. Fact is they were a small company that were trying to get their feet under them and after that review it was almost impossible for them to find dealers and get a foothold in NA. This is well before the internet had such dominance in our lives so magazines like Stereophile and The Absolute Sound were the main resources for the audiophile community. Those magazines still have a significant voice to influence the community but I don't think it's anything like it was.

 Again, I'm not trying to say the idea of reviewers/magazines sending back gear is necessarily right, heck I don't even know for sure that it's actually done, I've just heard allusions to it. I do think it would be right in certain situations but I also think for the most part a professional reviewer should be able to determine the positive and negatives about a piece and present them in an unbiased fashion. Is this truly possible? I don't know, to be honest I don't read many professional reviews anymore as my main audio interest is now headphones and none of the major magazines seem to take headphones seriously so most of the reviews I read are here on HF or other headphone related sites. I did have a subscription to Stereophile for a couple of years recently and for the most part I didn't see the reviews as being over the top glowing but any negativity was fairly tempered as well. Or maybe I've just become numb to it. 

 As 909 says readers should be skeptical and take what they read with a grain of salt.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Beefy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is EXACTLY the problem I'm talking about. It seems quite clear to me that you were listening to the name of the headphones, rather than the headphones themselves._

 

I've sat back for hundreds of posts in this thread, but I can't ignore this. You've gotta be freaking kidding me? You must be a politician, to be able to do such a superb job at spinning what Ken just said. I have to applaud you, I've never seen it done so well, and so transparently. Regardless of the fact that you are completely wrong about Ken. 

 I sat back and watched people speculate about whether the R10 were bad when he listened or not, and knowing that Ken and I have listened to the same thing and had the same impression, I wasn't worried because with what I know about Ken I believe they sounded good if he says they did.

 There is no way to prove they were bad when he listened. So, instead you managed to completely change the issue from "were they good or bad before the review" to "Ken is too easily swayed by the brand to hear correctly". I say that is a crock of excrement. YOU CREATED A PRETTY LITTLE SAYING about "listening to the brand/model and not the headphone", and some people will read it with some grain of truth that never existed. And the straw-man argument distracts from the real issue, so instead of dealing with whether JL or SW is telling the truth, or some blend of the truth, the thread now goes off on a different witch-hunting tangent.

 I think an apology is due to Ken.


----------



## AC1

No offense to Ken, but you guys think just because he is in the audio biz, he knows what "good" or even "right" sound is. Sure it depends on preference as well which makes it even more complicated. 

 I'll tell you guys a head-fi story to illustrate why I don't trust anyones ears other than my own...
 I bought a pair of HP-2s from a pretty established member at the time. It ended up having a blown driver with the top end in one side diminished. Sent it back to him, and he said it was fine. He didn't hear any problems with it! Well we argued over reimbursement of shipping and he posted on head-fi about the issue where he I was a reliable buyer, but he did not believe there was a problem (he returned the money fine just not shipping, so I doubt he was scamming me to go through all that trouble). 

 The kicker is later on he sold it to another member which I ended up meeting at a head-fi meet, and the guy that bought it also said there was a blown driver. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The seller of course said there was no problems (though by this second time it's just scamming since two people now had this problem). 

 This guy had decent gear too and a speaker rig. But come on, if you can't hear a blown driver, why even bother with a high end stereo system.


----------



## wower

I would like speak up for ALO. I have no association with them nor have I ever even bought anything from them. This is coming only from me. I hope people don't penalize ALO for using Jena Labs wire. (Though from a purely practically standpoint it might be a better idea to find a new supplier.) I guess personally, I can draw a clear distinction between the work of Jena Lab's modders and an inanimate wire (which probably never hurt anyone). Some will feel differently and that is _totally_ cool. I would just never trust jena lab to touch, let alone mod, an irreplaceable object for me. Again, it just speaks to Jena Lab's need to have covered this whole thing above board. They could have said, we have a tech, he made a mistake, now he only mods.. I donno - those little lamps in old sony receivers - and the community would have cheered and like... thrown a parade for how great their customer service is. Instead we get this whole line about doing (major repair) work they didn't tell anyone about. It's very suspect. So from me to Ken, you have no worries with me man.


----------



## PITTM

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *909* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_._

 

I guess are are more on the same page than i thought. Sorry I misunderstood.


----------



## Beefy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've sat back for hundreds of posts in this thread, but I can't ignore this. You've gotta be freaking kidding me? You must be a politician, to be able to do such a superb job at spinning what Ken just said. I have to applaud you, I've never seen it done so well, and so transparently._

 

Not a politician no, but a 'professional arguer' nonetheless - I'm a postdoctoral research scientist 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


 Regardless of the fact that you are completely wrong about Ken. 

 I sat back and watched people speculate about whether the R10 were bad when he listened or not, and knowing that Ken and I have listened to the same thing and had the same impression, I wasn't worried because with what I know about Ken I believe they sounded good if he says they did. 
 

Maybe I am wrong about Ken, maybe I'm not. But as hard as it is over the internet, let me assure you that I have no vested interest one way or the other, and no preconceived notions. I have no affiliation with Jena, Ken, or APS, or Boilingfrog.

 All I've done is read a long thread, do what I'm trained to do in terms of digesting and comprehending a large quantity of conflicting information, and come to a conclusion. I believe that Ken gave a glowing review to a 'broken' headphone, and that he didn't notice it because he wasn't being objective.

 Don't get me wrong - if this is indeed the case, I do NOT believe that Ken did it out of any malice or deliberate misconception, and I apologise if it came across that way. I believe that it is purely a function of how people in this hobby tend to carry themselves; the massively subjective nature of sound means that we set up 'rules' in our own minds.

 Ken thought the R10 should sound good, so it did sound good. It is there in his own words, plain as the light of day.

  Quote:


 I think an apology is due to Ken. 
 

Until any further information comes to light, no apology will be forthcoming. Just my interpretation of the facts. I'm very sorry if you feel that this is an attack against Ken - it is very obvious that the real 'villain' of this story is JL.


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## zotjen

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Beefy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is EXACTLY the problem I'm talking about. It seems quite clear to me that you were listening to the name of the headphones, rather than the headphones themselves._

 

Well then isn't it possible that maybe, just maybe, Boilingfrog was expecting _too much_ from the R10s based on their reputation.


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## jude

I think this thread has now run its course, as well as veered off it.


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