# Neurophone



## Jelle Schrijver

Hi All,







Neurophone is a different kind of music listening experience. Invented in the 60's it is not a very new technology. It is mostly avertised as a learning devic or meditation apperatus. But i've once read a post somewhere of it's use as a music listening device. Used in conjunction with a normal headphone it reported a very impressive result with a lot more detail to the music. 






 It works like a AM radio with a carrier wave of +/- 40 khz. This magic frequencie makes the coupling between all the nerves of the cochlea and the single nerve to your brain resonate. The music signal imbedded in the 40 khz wave excites the nerve and you preceive music. The interesting parts is that the preceived sound is bypassed the hole ear system and thus induvidual notes can be detected. (The ear normaly collectes all the notes to a single audiovibration, creating harmonics on the way). Once you get used to the system, the placing of the transducers is not that critical. As long as it touches some bare skin. Also, the side effect is that the brain gets a lot more signal to compute and generates a lot of special hormones to make the brain cope with the increased activity. These hormones are the same hormones that make you feel happy and content. So music listening gets even more addictive. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	









 The technology is kinda simple, but the price is pretty steep. So i am looking for people (in the benelux region ?) with a electronics background to collaborate with to build a DIY neurophone. 

 There are more company's out there with this same technology, but the can not call it a neurophone and give it other names for it (and a even more heafty price tag). In the past i've had other links, but kinda lost them. So links too this kind of technology are also welcome.

 Greetz
 Jelle


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## Jelle Schrijver

bump


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## MrMajestic2

And this is related to DIY in what way?


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## Bjornboy81

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jelle Schrijver* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ So i am looking for people (in the benelux region ?) with a electronics background to collaborate with to build a DIY neurophone. _

 

Thats what it has to do with DIY.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It's kind of a neat concept...wonder how will it works from person to person. And anything that you get a natural high from is a winner in my book! haha


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## MrMajestic2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jelle Schrijver* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So i am looking for people (in the benelux region ?) with a electronics background to collaborate with to build a DIY neurophone._

 

Sorry mate, I missed that part. Mistook it for spam. Thanks Bjornboy81 for pointing it out.


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## Jelle Schrijver

UUh, sorry for the misunderstanding.

 I am looking for people with more electronical background that can help building a neurophone. RF electronics is just out of my lague. So it is kinda diy self as in who's want to help figure this one out.


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## Jelle Schrijver

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bjornboy81* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thats what it has to do with DIY.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It's kind of a neat concept...wonder how will it works from person to person. And anything that you get a natural high from is a winner in my book! haha 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Person 2 person? like how to collaborate? Or using a neurophone with more than one person?


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## Bonthouse

No, he's wondering how it affects people. So if everyone experiences it the same way, or if everyone has their own soundsignature. 
 in example, to person A it feels like a two kilowatt subwoofer in their head, to person B it feels like no subwoofer at all.
 DIYing this is a little risky, I think. Something went wrong when connecting this to that, and you end up with no memory at all


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## Jelle Schrijver

from what i've read so far, the experience is the same to most people. It sounds more spooky than it's is. But it can not harm you and it does not effect the brain direct, only like tricking the brain in hearing through you're ears. I also read that the more u use it, the less signal you need to hear it. First timers put it so hard that the skin's beginning to vibrate so loud, it becomes audible. And because of the Amplutide Modulation. I suspect it does not produce real low frequencies. Kinda like the AM radio versus the FM radio.

 The technology however was keept secret by the US goverment because you can also use it in a special way. It seems that when you radiate the signal into a room, you will not here it consious, but DO hear it subconsious. So like the 1 frame coca cola shot in the movie, it can infleunce people.


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## digitalmind

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jelle Schrijver* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The technology however was keept secret by the US goverment because you can also use it in a special way. It seems that when you radiate the signal into a room, you will not here it consious, but DO hear it subconsious. So like the 1 frame coca cola shot in the movie, it can infleunce people._

 

Oh, now I'm getting interested! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 You talked to me for a short period after the meet at Hans' place. The transducers of the system; do they vibrate themselves or are they simple antennas? A 40kHz AM transmitter is simple enough to build. If they vibrate themselves, it seems like a modification of this would get the same results. At the least, it'll get you a low-fi version of it. Those things can be picked up in stores for about €7,50 to €10. Might be worth getting one to see if you can get the same results outside of the mouth. 

 Being able to identify two different seperate tones rather than a mixup of the two opens up a lot of possibilities, not just for music. Seems like a very cool project to play with! Can you pull the Neurophone patents?

 EDIT:
 Here's some interesting reading:
Frequency transpositional hearing ... - Google Patents
Nervous system excitation device - Google Patents
Method and system for simplifying ... - Google Patents

 How much does a Neurophone cost? Considering the time needed to build/design such a thing, buying one may well prove to be the much cheaper route. 

 Maybe it's just me who hadn't heard of this thing before you brought it up, but if it isn't, why is this such an unknown invention? 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bonthouse* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_DIYing this is a little risky, I think. Something went wrong when connecting this to that, and you end up with no memory at all 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Not at all -- around 40kHz is a very harmless frequency. If you want to worry about those sort of things, you'd do much better by turning off your wireless router... That's less than a high-end headphone! 

 edit:

 For just a bit more than €300, I'm not sure if DIY is the reasonable route. Sure, it's a fun project, but if this unit does what you want...


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## sunneebear

1. Wonder if it works like a cochlear implant for deaf people. Cochlear implants receive signals from a external transmitter and stimulates the auditory nerves directly. The deaf person does not hear true sound but a close interpretation.
 2. If this Neurophone technology really works then why is it not used for the hearing impaired?


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## infinitesymphony

If it's transmitting a ~40 kHz signal and it becomes audible, wouldn't that imply that humans can hear or detect signals that high? The commonly-accepted frequency range of human hearing (e.g. audibility) is 20 Hz-20 kHz. Just curious.


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## digitalmind

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *infinitesymphony* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If it's transmitting a ~40 kHz signal and it becomes audible, wouldn't that imply that humans can hear or detect signals that high? The commonly-accepted frequency range of human hearing (e.g. audibility) is 20 Hz-20 kHz. Just curious. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

It would imply that sounds at that frequency are modulated back to the 'normal' frequencies that we can hear while bypassing the ear (either in our brains or somewhere else along the route). So, in a way, we can detect signals above ~20kHz -- just not through use of our eardrums. 

 Really interesting would be to find out if we can hear a larger frequency range with this method.... though I suspect not (since there's no information about this at all on the Neurophone site). It would enable an entire new array of instruments and music.


sound therapy, accelerated learning, hearing loss and attention deficit relief.

 A more 'hifi' version compared to the Neurophone?


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## infinitesymphony

The Neurophone information says that the saccule in the ear is capable of sensing ultrasonic frequencies. As far as I've seen, there hasn't been any research that has conclusively demonstrated the detectability of ultrasonic frequencies, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they have no effect, subliminal or otherwise.

 Even if the Neurophone turns out to be pure marketing nonsense, this is a subject that has always interested me.


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## digitalmind

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f4/ech...paired-278315/

 A review of the Echofone right here on this forum.


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## Bjornboy81

Bonthouse is exactly right in my question. thanks for clearifying.

 My guess is that you're not hearing the 40KHz itself, but rather sensing the modulation of the signal. With some serious signal processing you could probably do some prettty bad ass surround sound! 20.1 anyone!


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## Jelle Schrijver

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sunneebear* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_1. Wonder if it works like a cochlear implant for deaf people. Cochlear implants receive signals from a external transmitter and stimulates the auditory nerves directly. The deaf person does not hear true sound but a close interpretation.
 2. If this Neurophone technology really works then why is it not used for the hearing impaired?_

 

1) cochlear "feeds" small electric impulse to the thousends of nerves inside the cochlear, neurophone vibrates the "coupling" between these nerves and the "master" nerve to your brain.

 2) Good point! That's one of the reasons i don not already have a neurophone! If you ask them about precived audio quality, you wount get a clear answer.


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## Jelle Schrijver

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *infinitesymphony* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If it's transmitting a ~40 kHz signal and it becomes audible, wouldn't that imply that humans can hear or detect signals that high? The commonly-accepted frequency range of human hearing (e.g. audibility) is 20 Hz-20 kHz. Just curious. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

it is not the 40khz you're hearing, but the embedded (modulated) "normal" frequencies.

 edit: The nerve barrier resonates on the 40khz in the manner of the imbedded normal freq sounds and thus the resonance follows the normal freq.


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## infinitesymphony

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jelle Schrijver* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_it is not the 40khz you're hearing, but the embedded (modulated) "normal" frequencies._

 

Do you mean aural harmonics in the inner ear, or harmonic distortion / virtual harmonics from the system itself? It's not clear to me where or why a steady 40 kHz signal would be modulated.

 The Neurophone and the Echophone seem to be following different concepts. If I read the information correctly, the Neurophone only plays back at 40 kHz, while the Echophone plays back a range between 400 Hz to even higher than 40 kHz. At least the Echophone's range is well within the known limits of hearing.


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## Jelle Schrijver

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *digitalmind* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The transducers of the system; do they vibrate themselves or are they simple antennas?_

 

vibration, simple piezo elements found in those "musical" greetingcards will do. There very cheap to buy.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *digitalmind* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_A 40kHz AM transmitter is simple enough to build._

 

 Not for me, hens the new tread...

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *digitalmind* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If they vibrate themselves, it seems like a modification of this would get the same results. At the least, it'll get you a low-fi version of it. Those things can be picked up in stores for about €7,50 to €10. Might be worth getting one to see if you can get the same results outside of the mouth._

 

This is another (thou also very interesting) technology. It's called boneconducting and it works by fysicaly vibrate the cochlea and thus the small hears inside. That's making you hear. example. 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *digitalmind* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Being able to identify two different seperate tones rather than a mixup of the two opens up a lot of possibilities, not just for music. Seems like a very cool project to play with! Can you pull the Neurophone patents?

 EDIT:
 Here's some interesting reading:
Frequency transpositional hearing ... - Google Patents
Nervous system excitation device - Google Patents
Method and system for simplifying ... - Google Patents_

 

you already found them!

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *digitalmind* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How much does a Neurophone cost? Considering the time needed to build/design such a thing, buying one may well prove to be the much cheaper route. _

 

Close, but no cigar. The price you found is the US price. The really bad news is that the will not sell to europe, you have to order here and her price is €650. What i am still missing is a stereo option (neurophone is mono). Also i've read reports that states that the analogue version was more bassy (which i am for). And i am not comfertable to put down so much cash for such a "simple" device. You can by it, experience it and if you don't like it, return for a refund. My problem is that my financial funds don't strech all the way to cover all my interest. So if i can do it cheap (and use my hard urned money on other interst), i am all up for it. The electronics can not be that expensive and the design is pretty straight forward. In my view it is building a AM device with a variable carrying frequencie. Feed it audio and connect to a piezo buzzer and where off. I am opting the analogue route hear, not the fancy DSP route. That's really above my head.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *digitalmind* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Maybe it's just me who hadn't heard of this thing before you brought it up, but if it isn't, why is this such an unknown invention? _

 

Mayby because it is pre internet and the aiming for people to help them learn and meditatie. That it can play music is just a gimmick for them. 

 Mayby we can invite the european department of Neurophone to the next head-fi meeting? 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *digitalmind* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_For just a bit more than €300, I'm not sure if DIY is the reasonable route. Sure, it's a fun project, but if this unit does what you want..._

 

not quite, i am also trying to find out if it can carry to complete audiospectrum (neurohone spec's are unknown and the echofone is 400 hz- 100khz, did i already mention i like bass...) so you can listen to music without anybody knowing. Keeping your ears clear. And i really like stereo while the neurophone is mono. I've understood that if you get more used to the neurophone principle, you can put the transducers anywhere on your body. So hidding the transducers in your belt would be very cool idea.


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## Jelle Schrijver

bump


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## Kel Ghu

I think I am gonna try it. There is a 30-day return policy... It will replace my predator


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## Kel Ghu

I am actually very interested in this thing. I am going to explain why...

 I am an adept of Tai Chi Chuan (Tai Ji Quan), a chinese martial art (you know Tai Chi Master movies and stuff I guess). And the biggest part of that art is meditation. And like all other meditation system, you seek to be connected to the universe and be one with it. And masters in meditation (whether it is buddhist, Daoist, Zen, Yogi, etc...), often describe part of that by being feeling rooted (grounded in neurophone FAQ) and being more present with a clearer mind (heightened awareness). According to Neurophone FAQ, many people using it are feeling the same way... That is incredible! It could save the world! I mean, it is believe that all great guides felt it, like Siddharta, Lao Tseu or Jesus Christ. They all described that connection to the universe differently. Siddharta called it Nirvana, it is Lao Tseu's Vacuity and Jesus' God, which describe the same thing with different approach.

 Meditation is very hard and not many people can reach even the lowest level. And it sounds that the neurophone can help us gaining that "6th" sense without doing anything... Even if they don't claim it, that's what they "advertise"... I know I sound crazy. But for you guys out there who are interested in meditation, check this out... I don't know what it is worth, but it sounds miraculous.


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## Jelle Schrijver

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Kel Ghu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think I am gonna try it. There is a 30-day return policy... It will replace my predator 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Go for it, and please keep us posted about the experiences of the neurophone as a way of listening music.

 Keep in mind you have to get used to the new sensory input...

 And about meditation, yes it's hard...
 But also look into binaural beats with imbedded alpha/theta waves. There was a CD out there that was advertised as the quickguide to mediation. But it was just BB with the mentioned above brainwaves. Don't have the link anymore. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Here are some links that could get you started:
wiki
Binaural Beat Brain Wave Experimenter's Lab
browser based BB generator

 And Kel Ghu, email me if you want some more tips. I have still some at hand, but not all are suitable for sharing it here out in the open.


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## Kel Ghu

I am not sure the binaural beats will work with the neurophone, as it is monoral. We will see. I can listen to it through headphones though while using the neurophone. Have you tried the binaural beats?
 This is going to be a scary experience... I am a bit worried...


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## Jelle Schrijver

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Kel Ghu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am not sure the binaural beats will work with the neurophone, as it is monoral. We will see. I can listen to it through headphones though while using the neurophone._

 

Correct, one of the this is dislike about the neurophone. I would be very handy/cool if the perceived sound is equal/better then listening with IEM. That way I could listen to music and keep my ears for listening to my surroundings. 

 And Binaural Beats don't work with neurophone technology, because the trick of BB is to play to slightly different tones to each ear so the brain calculates the difference between them. That's way BB only works with headphones and not with speakers. Also if your amp/player has some kind of 3d/crossfeed kinda stuff, it should be turned off!! 

 The whole idea behind BB is that your brain receives a tone in the 4-12 hz region, which is not possible by normal hearing. Seen the technology of neurophone, i would think that it would be possible to play the 4-12hz tones themselves through the neurophone, because the neurophone bypasses the normal hearing process.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Kel Ghu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Have you tried the binaural beats?_

 

Yes, i use PowerNap regularly, a BB cd (apple lossless on iPod) with embedded sleepbrainwaves the simulates the 3 hours sleep cycle in 20 min. 
 And tried the various BB samples of the theta/alpha waves. Effects are very strange to experience and are not the same for all people. Also, the more you use a certain type of BB sample, the faster and easier your brain adapts to it. Kinda like learning.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Kel Ghu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is going to be a scary experience... I am a bit worried..._

 

 You should not be worried more then about the marketing boys that used the famous 1 shot of coca cola between the other frames of the movie. Your brain is highly influential, but in the end, your the master of your own brain and have a free will. So it is all about how free you are letting yourself to be influenced by outside stimuli. So in my view, it is not scarier then all that advertising that is going on around you.


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## Jelle Schrijver

Found that BB meditation CD:

brain music power


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## buddha01

Hi, 

 I just started to get re-interested in the nurophone once again after hearing about it many years ago.

 My interest in the nurophone is as follows.

 1-Making a cheaper but as capable version. I have read that the commerical nurophone is actually sealed in carbon to limit its back engineering, I believe a standard analoge version should be fairly easy for a genus to make but to make it digital is harder?

 2-I have also completed many Hemi-sync courses and would be interested in how they may assist meditation.

 3-I would be interested in how to make a wireless transmitting verion of the nurophone so as to project audio and music as a consenting persons skull.

 4-I have read that images can be placed onto a uhf carrer with the nurophone, I am a computer gamer and would like to know if this is one step closer to VR computer gaming? think matrix 

 Oh and lastly I am trying to learn another language and find it very interesting that it may assist with long term memory access, help with studying etc.


 I think the nurophone in the right hands could be a kind of key to much more.

 Does any one have any thoughts about my thoughts.

 bud


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## Jelle Schrijver

Hi Bud, 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *buddha01* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_1-Making a cheaper but as capable version. I have read that the commerical nurophone is actually sealed in carbon to limit its back engineering, I believe a standard analoge version should be fairly easy for a genus to make but to make it digital is harder?_

 

Cheaper is always better (i am dutch
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ) but the current neurophone feels somewhat overpriced and is missing some things for my needs. As you may have read some posts ago i am trying to find people to build one ourselves. 
 I was busy with digitalmind, but he seems to be to busy. What i need is a schematic of a amplitude modulation (AM) amp where i can adjust the carrier freq between 30khz and 50 khz. That should be simple enough, but have not found a schematic on the internet....

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *buddha01* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_2-I have also completed many Hemi-sync courses and would be interested in how they may assist meditation._

 

I quess your talking about this. The quick look tells me it is about Binaural Beats (BB), but that should not work while listening to speakers, because the tones need to be isolated from each other. BB should not work with the standard neurophone, because it's mono. But my goal is to build a stereo system. Then it could work, but it depands about the amount of crosstalk between the 2 channels. BUT, the whole idea is about using infrasub (1-40 hz) frequencies. BB is a way to get infrasub frequents into the brain. This is because our ears are not capable for hearing infrasub freq. What an interesting experiment should be is to get a tone generator and use a neurophone to play the infrasub frequencies by itself. Because the neurophone bypasses the normal hearing mechanism, it should be possible to "hear" those infrasub freq and thus it do its work in synching the brainwaves. Side step: our visual system is however capable to (subconscious) register the infrasub frequencies. So a idea of mine was that watching television creates a 25hz wave in your brain. That is in the beta waves range, associated with Active, busy or anxious thinking and active concentration, arousal, cognition and this could explain the hurried feeling most of us western citizens are experiencing. 

 edit: Also i am curious about your experiences with the hemi-sync material. PM or email me if you want, because i am not sure this is the right tread to share it.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *buddha01* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_3-I would be interested in how to make a wireless transmitting verion of the nurophone so as to project audio and music as a consenting persons skull._

 

Not shure what you are saying here. Is it to send music as a raygun to someone's head? It is already done by Flanagan itself, but it was not powerful enough to actually hear it. It was picked up subconscious. So i am not sure how much power would be needed (and thus EMC radition) to actually hear it concisely. The way Flanagan did it is very simple, we only should need a bigger amp. I am however not gone tell here how it is done, because it also could be misused. The reason why the American government confiscated the invention in it's early years. Also, from what i've read, you get more sensitive to the new audio input the longer you use it. And so, need less power to hear it. About wireless, my dream is to create a small wireless bodypack in conjunction with a belt with buildin transducers. By wearing the belt underneath your clothing you could, as a musician, listen to the monitorsignal and still keep your ears free for (on stage) conversation and ambience sounds. 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *buddha01* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_4-I have read that images can be placed onto a uhf carrer with the nurophone, I am a computer gamer and would like to know if this is one step closer to VR computer gaming? think matrix _

 

the carrier wave of the neurophone is way lower than the UHF band. And your tapping into your hearing nerve, not your visual nerve. So in this application i do not think sending images to brain would be possible 

 But, it is not as strange as it at first sight seems. Just have to figure out:
 1) carrier frequency of your visual nerve.
 2) figure out how the eye converts a picture to the electrical signal passed to the visual nerve.


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## buddha01

Hello again.

 I often find myself watching and listening to two different video and audio sources at the same time.

 I wounder what it would be like to have two audio sources playing (spoken tounge) one through the nurophone one through standard sterio headphones...

 Think of the film, the man who fell to earth.

 Also... I am trying to learn a language at the moment, I am native english although you would not tell with my grammer.

 How about playing spanish through the neurophone with the like for like english words at the same time, time matched, through standard speakers, 

 through in a small hemi sync for studying, the phase the forgin words louder, this might be a good way to "fit the feel, for new words".

 Also would be interested in how this would work with two different audio sources, Ok im not a women but I have a data hungry mind most of the time, of that generation + coffee etc.. 


 comments..

 bud


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## Jelle Schrijver

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *buddha01* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_... but I have a data hungry mind most of the time, of that generation + coffee etc.. _

 

That's how Flanagan started and ended up inventing the neurophone. He saw a film or series where people could upload info to there brain. He tried to copy that. 

 Also i was thinking about, based on the BB waves of PowerNap, a short burst sequence of say a few minutes. Then study for 10-20 min, listen with closed eyes to the BB sequence to store the new info, and then start fresh again for another batch of info.


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## dgbiker1

So is the wave electrical or physical? As a biomedical engineer I take some interest in this, but if your wave is electrical there are some pretty big risks in making this a DIY project. There are set tolerances for trans-dermal power transfer and I can see things going very bad as people build their first neurophone (ie a big DC offset could fry you instead of your headphones
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





). I worked on a project a couple years ago where we transfered power through the skin, so I probably still have the numbers if you need them.

 Sorry if I just missed this information, it's late and I've been writing my thesis all day so I'm completely worn out


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## Jelle Schrijver

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dgbiker1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So is the wave electrical or physical? As a biomedical engineer I take some interest in this, but if your wave is electrical there are some pretty big risks in making this a DIY project. There are set tolerances for trans-dermal power transfer and I can see things going very bad as people build their first neurophone (ie a big DC offset could fry you instead of your headphones
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). I worked on a project a couple years ago where we transfered power through the skin, so I probably still have the numbers if you need them.

 Sorry if I just missed this information, it's late and I've been writing my thesis all day so I'm completely worn out
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Welcome aboard. You raised a very good question. From what i've gathered it seems physical, but i am not so shure. That's why I suggested using Piezo elements to get that vibration. But, because you cold place it anywhere of your body, and looking at the schematic, it could be very well electrical. And I agree, in the latter you should keep the voltage (And more important) the amperage at the very save side. All information is welcome. 

 I just start to wonder, in case of the electrical, if the used voltage is between levels that could pass through skin, but are not as high so there able to fry anything of activate muscles. 

 Mhhm, mayby I should start licking my HP socket to get this experiment starting. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Experience learned me that a healthy 9V of your tongue is quit educate to get your attention... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Edit: 2 afterthoughts. If electrical and it should pass the skin barrier, you should take sweat into the equation, because moisture lowers the resistance of your skin. Second; i've read about the neurophone that when used on "loud" settings, people could hear the actual signal. This would suggest it is Physical because I don't see how electrical could make your skin turn into a speaker. Our there should be some piezo properties too live skin. But then I am wondering how high frequencies could travel through/over your skin to your ear region.

 Love to hear your input on this dgbiker1! And I saw you're using B&O A8. Tried the iPodArt iBuds? Maybe the WHoomp of comply would also do the trick.


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## dgbiker1

I was thinking electrical because your nerves operate off electrochemical signals, they don't actually vibrate in response to sound (or anything). It could be physical, but the neurophone is then acting indirectly on the nerves (physical vibration is picked up by afferent nerves in the same way you sense touch) so it would be more of a dermaphone than neurophone... but such is marketing
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 On the electrical side, don't worry too much about voltage. Muscles respond to current, so that's what you need to worry about. The good news is that the electrical impedance of the body is very high a 40kHz, our impedance is lowest at a little under 60Hz (power line frequency, great!) and goes up above and below that. I would recommend using a battery or using an optocoupler in the circuit to protect the user if this is indeed an electrical signal. Looking at this again, I'm starting to think it's just a physical vibration though. In that case your piezo idea is great.

 I haven't tried the ibuds, but I should. It looks like they would take care of the things I don't like about them (bass and comfort) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Thanks for the tip!


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## Jelle Schrijver

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dgbiker1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_... It could be physical, but the neurophone is then acting indirectly on the nerves (physical vibration is picked up by afferent nerves in the same way you sense touch) so it would be more of a dermaphone than neurophone... but such is marketing
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Thanks again. Learning new things here 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 And a new search phrase for google. Never heard of the term dermaphone. But i am still trying to find a schematic for Amplitude Modulated Amp with a adjustable carrier frequencie wave in the 30-50kHz band. I'll start with piezo and if that does not do the trick, design an isolated loop for getting voltage to your skin. 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dgbiker1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I haven't tried the ibuds, but I should. It looks like they would take care of the things I don't like about them (bass and comfort) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Thanks for the tip!_

 

Bass becomes way more and comfort is way better. But the headphone tends to stick out (as seen on picture below). These iBuds are for the old apple headphone which are a little bigger then the A8. I have remedied this by double adhesive tape. But if you could find a version for the new apple earbuds, that it should be a nice fit.


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## dgbiker1

Do you think this would work if the carrier wave is a square wave instead of a sine wave? If so, you could put together an adjustable AM circuit with a 555 timer (carrier signal) and a couple op-amps (one multiplier combining the carrier and sound, and one amplifier to drive the piezo) pretty easily. Might be worth a shot as a proof of concept/ prototype. Another thought is that some piezo drivers oscillate at a set frequency (unfortunately the carrier wouldn't be adjustable), so you could use the natural frequency of the driver as your "carrier" and use the sound wave to control the power going to the piezo, effectively controlling the displacement amplitude.

 I just made up the dermaphone (derma=skin) term When I heard neurophone I assumed it actually sent electrical signals to the nerves, but the more I look at it the more I think it physically vibrates the skin and bone. Maybe I should actually read the guy's article, but I've been reading journal articles 6 hrs/day this week so I'm reluctant to read any more


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## Jelle Schrijver

Understand your reluctance of reading all this material. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 There are moments that the brian is just full and our biological recorder just quits. All in good time shall we say 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I personally have a dislike of square waves. There are some studies around that suggest that the abrupt change in voltage (and EM field) causes deceases like cancer (the whole GSM discussing). And if memory serves me correctly the studies also stated that sinus waves are far less intruding to our bodies and organs. But like you stated, I have only have to figure out 2 parts. 1) A variable Sinus generator 30-50Khz. 2) how to overlay the audiosignal with the carrier wave. Part 2 is what troubles me. The amping stuff is something i feel comfortable with designing myself. Time to start googling again I guess 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 How hard can it be...


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## dgbiker1

That's good, I'm pretty comfortable combining a carrier and a target signal but I haven't done anything with generating sinusoids
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'll look up my multiplier circuits and send you some information.

 It's been a couple years, but as I recall AM is multiplication of the two signals and FM is addition, so just using an opamp operating as a multiplier should work for AM!


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## Jelle Schrijver

I was already googling and poundering and came up with this schematic. Simple and a clear case of my imperfect design skills. I am not shure of this schematic will work and if it is temperature stable. And i am also not shure if the C3 smoothing cap would do the trick in transforming the square waves into sinus waves. If it would work, it will be sensitive to value fluctuations. 

 Edit: I just figured out that after the audio buffer it needs some Low pass filtering to keep frequencies above, say 20khz, away from the "multiplier". I am no shure what will happen if 40khz audio signals would be mixed with the +/- 40khz carrier wave. Beat frequencies or phase problems could happen then.






 Looking forward to your info dgbiker1!


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## buddha01

Link posted for reference includes circuit diagrams??

G. Patrick Flanagan: Neurophone ~ Patents & articles

 Shame on me I studyed microelectronics + radio (c&g1-2-3) for three years and never looked at another cuit again after studys..


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## Jelle Schrijver

I am really shure it is Physical because i'm remembering a story about how the neurophone worked an audience without them connected to the device. The speculation was that skin is sensitive to high frequency soundwaves. So it's either physical or EM. Doubt the latter.

 @ Buddha01: Because i am not an native american, what does C&G1-2-3 mean? If your familiar with radio electronics, then your input is very valuable in the AM field. What did you think of the above schematic? 

 About the link, thanks for bring it to our intention, if read that website a few months ago, so i thought it was already mentioned in this thread. 

 I've been interested in this device for quite some time now. Thanks to windows i've lost my old links a had gathered so far including some other manufactures making similar products. The called it a different name and i didn't find them anymore with google. I do remember it was a whole lot more expensive then the neurophone from flanagen. I believe that it was a german company.


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## Jelle Schrijver

I am not shure if i am correct, but a piezo speaker is constructed out of 2 pieces of metal that are not electrically linked. So the impedance would be infinitive/ So you need to short the piezo element to make a current (and voltage) run by it and make it vibrate. Looking at the schematic that buddha1 mentioned in the previous post, it seems that the peddles at the right side of the schematic, is just a way of drawing a piezo. 


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pm* 
_I think the difficult part is the timing of the coding to make it recognised as audio in the brain... right?_

 

From what i have read so far, the difficult part for now is to find that magic resonance frequency (30-50khz) and find out if that is the same for all people (which i think it is because there doesn't seem to be a trim on the neurophone, only volume). The way i see it how it works, is that the hairs in your cochlea create electrical pulses that are the same as the line level analogue audio signal that goes towards the headphone. The neurophone simply resonates a junction from the nerves from the cochlea and the central nerve towards your brain. So the embedded signal would just be a plain audiosignal. The carrierwave is just there to get the junction resonating and to transfer the musicsignal. The resonating itself would induce electrical signals on itself which would be simular as the musicsignal. And in doing so,the brain heres music. That's why it is AM and not FM (which would be a nice follow up experiment BTW). 
 If we got the basics right, we cold evolve there for better SQ and stereophonic implementation.

 Addition: 



The Auditory Nerve Pathway

 I am beginning to hesitate if i understood the workings correctly. Is it like i mentioned above a junction between the auditory nerve and the cochlea or is it the sand like part inside semicircular canals that is passed on to the auditory nerve and is recognised by the brain as signals coming from the cochlea and thus processes it as sound/music...

 Addition II:
 Found this on the net:




  Quote:


 Neurophone

 Invented in 1968 by Patrick Flanagan. The Neurophone is a device that allows the user to hear through the skin. It bypasses the normal audio channels and allows hearing of information using a direct connection to the brain! There have been many reports of deaf people who are able to hear using the device. When he applied for a patent, the Defense Intelligance Agency took posession of the technology under the excuse that it was a matter of national security. A national security order forbade Patrick from working on the device or discussing it with anyone. After challenging the order for more than 4 years, the patent was finally released and approved in 1972. The device is about the size of a cassette tape and runs on a 9 volt battery. It has an input jack where you can feed any standard audio from a cd player, or tape player into the Neurophone. There are 2 electrodes that transmit the audio information directly to the brain. When the electrodes are placed anywhere on your head or face, the sound actually appears to be coming from inside your head! It takes most people about a week of using the machine to hear clearly with it. This is apparently because many people do not have the right neural connections formed yet in their brains. After using the device for a few days, the sound becomes much clearer. If you plugged your ears with your fingers or used earplugs while using the device, the Neurophone sound actually becomes louder as a booming voice from inside your head! Here are some of the reported effects of using the device: Accellerated learning, Reportedly allows some nerve deaf people to hear, Electronic telepathy, Information is transmitted directly to brain, Has been used to communicate with dolphins, Increases concentration, Stress reduction, Synchronizes left and right side of brain, Information is fed directly to subconscious mind, Enhanced psychic, abilities, Reprogram your brain. Many aspects of the Neurophone technology are not completely understood but it appears to have incredible potential for learning. We have tested the device here at Future Horizons and found it amazing. The unit comes with an attractive carrying case, instruction booklet, hookup probes, demonstration CD, and is easy to use. We also have a complete technical booklet about the Neurophone technology and details about how it works. It also contains lots more info about its history and potential uses. Patent information about the device is also included. The Neurophone booklet is included with all Neurophone purchases and is also available seperately. PLANS: $20.00, Ready to use: $895.00 
 

This raises an interesting question. You need approx. a week to "learn" the new audio input. How are we gone test the device for proper functioning. It would be great if we could borrow the original neurophone to "learn" recognise the audio. And with that new skill it would be much handier to test our own designs.


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## dgbiker1

Ohhhh dear, I wouldn't put much weight in that site. They sell the neurophone alongside anti-gravity machines and mind control crystals
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 The neurophone site looks like a much better (scientific) source. I'll send you a PM on some thoughts I've been having.


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## Jelle Schrijver

All data is welcome, we only have to turn it into information, but I agree, there selling some really strange (stranger then the neurophone that is) stuff....

 Just added the link just so people could backtrack.


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## Jelle Schrijver

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pm* 
_I've done some background research and now understand a bit more the concept of the application. After reading the background I have positive and negative impressions of the concept.

 The positive: I believe the majority of the cost of their device is in profits and signal processing that may not be necessary to replicate (pink noise generators, etc) for this application. The basic concept of the circuit for the application you were describing (amplitude modulated audio signal) could easily be built for under $30 per channel (we could have a stereo version for $60!) as a prototype to test the concept.

 I want to emphasize "to test the concept." I believe this is a very interesting concept with great potential, and for $30 it wouldn't hurt to try it. Before I mention the drawbacks, I just want to be clear that I am absolutely interested in trying this product.

 I do have some big problems however. I first did some background research on Dr. Flanagan and found that some of his other inventions have come under intense scrutiny, including toxic supplements that are banned by the Food and Drug Administration in the U.S. His publications are generally found in "fringe" publications that are generally not peer reviewed and not reliable sources. He has many other inventions that are described as "snake oil". While this raises concerns, I chose to ignore his qualifications as I looked for information (keeping an open mind!). 

 I read about the concepts behind the neurophone and it is claimed to work through the vestibular system with electromagnetic waves (which cause hallucinations and health problems). I find this strange because the vestibular system is responsible for balance, not hearing (even though it is in the ear) and operates between 0.1 and 10Hz. Most parts of the human nervous system actually behave like filters (I model neuromuscular systems for my research, so I know this!), so it makes no sense that the vestibular system would work up to 10Hz, then not work between 10-30,000Hz and suddenly recognize a specific frequency in the 40,000Hz range. If it did work with ultrasonic frequencies, the vestibular system would not have the problem you were describing of being very dependent on which frequency it is set at, it would work with a range of frequencies (we operate on logarithmic scales, so in the ultrasonic range, the vestibular system should work over a range of many thousand hertz if it did work).

 I read a bit of the Lenhardt article in Science magazine (the one cited on the neurophone site), and it confirmed my suspicions that this is a bone conduction device. While the neurophone site claims the neurophone doesn't work through bone conduction, the Science article states very clearly that it is bone conduction. Dr. Flanagan's experiments are not convincing (the beat frequency discussion), so I believe that bone conduction is much more likely than electromagnetic waves acting through the vestibular system as Flanagan explains. Bone conduction explains why you need to tune the frequency as you had described, since different people have different bone densities and geometries that will affect the very specific natural frequency of their bones.

 Most importantly overall, I believe that the neurophone can work, but I think it would be good to move away from Dr. Flanagan's information. I believe the device works, but Dr. Flanagan's interpretation of WHY it works is incorrect. The advantage is that there is thorough, scientifically acceptable literature on bone conduction that will give us more specific information on how to modulate the audio signal. It also makes the implementation of the device more flexible. At this point, I believe it is more sensible to approach this as a bone-conduction device to guide the research and design._

 

If in my rambling i got something wrong or against the general scientific believes, feel free to correct me.

 As you said, Strange man that Dr. Flanagan. A good question that is still not answered: If this device works that great; why are there still conventional hearing devices and cochlea implant surgery? 

 About bone conductance, from what i have seen, it does not need a carrierwave. The vibrate the audio spectrum directly to the cochlea, where the hairs inside pick it up as sound and is processed the old fashion way. So way a learning time? Is it maybe that the higher carrier wave makes for a better conductance. You would expect low frequencies are more suitable for it. Also, for maximum workings, it should sit as near as possible to the cochlea, which would place it just before your ear. In the case of more efficient bone conductance. You would expect that because of the different shapes and sizes of our skeleton (and thus different length pathways) it would be necessary to easily (for the user to) offset the carrierwave. As it seems that both the echofone and the neurophone does not allow to change the carrierfrequency, it's a save beth to say that one frequency fits all and in doing so it is not a "classic" bone conducting device. Also, when used to the neurophone, the pads could be placed anywhere on your body. In the case of bone conductance, that would be highly inefficient. And there are reports of people which are deaf (non function cochlea) that could hear with the neurophone. 

 About EMF; looking at the first (patent) schematic, there is no coil and the end for generating an EMF. So i believe that electromagnetic waves are not the case here. 

 In danger of becoming annoying by repeating myself. I excuse myself for being this reluctant. But i am trying to understand this thoroughly. 

 I understand now it is a plane inside the saccule that picks the signal up and that the plane has a resonance frequency of (+/- 40kHz, the magic frequency where after. That's way in our first setup, it should be adjustable. Once found, you could used a fixed frequency oscillating electronics because we have learned now to what frequency it should be tuned). As it resonates, the vibrating plane creates electrical pulses that are picked up by the auditory nerve. Now by modulating that resonance, you create wave like pulses that are similar to electrical music waves. Could it be because there are several nerve endings in that proximity that the brain does the filtering. And so, it needs to learn to see past the 10hz filter point to recognise the new audio stream? And that this explains the learning time? By new, i mean (seeing from inside the brain) misplaced audio pulses. Normally it receives the 20hz-20khz pulses from the neighbour nerve that is connected to the cochlea. Not this signal is also present as noise on the saccule nerve. This all seems very possible in my ears. The resonating theory. Funny thought. Because where resonating a plane, which is stiff to begin with, we could call it "burn in time". 

 There are some things not quit clear on what i have mentioned above. Can a high frequency travel through the body that easily. In other words, what is the resistance of the body to soundwaves depending on frequency (does resistance go up or down when freq. goes up). I don not know how the device is called in english (we dutch call it "echo") but the device uses ultrasone sound waves to make pictures of internal organs. Mostly used for checking on pregnant woman. This would show that ultrasone freq. do travel through our body. Maybe it uses our bone structure to travel in our case to get more efficiently to the saccule? And that is the reason it's called a bone conductance device?


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## dgbiker1

Jelle et. al.,
 Sorry I haven't posted the new information I came across. It's been a crazy week/weekend between preparing for a conference coming this sunday, finishing my thesis research and completing my first draft, moving across the state, interviews, work, and of course a head-fi meet tomorrow
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 I did find out some interesting tid-bits about bone conduction and the vestibular system that I want to post about that addresses some of the concerns I had in my PM to Jelle, as well as some other concerns Jelle expressed. I also jumped the gun a bit and conceptualized another possible circuit implementation. I'm hoping to have time to post something on Tuesday, but it might be another week and a half (after I'm done moving) before I have time to post something of adequate quality and value


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## Jelle Schrijver

No Problem dbiker1. Already glad your onboard on team neurophone. really appreciate the time you put in this project despite your already busy schedule. Can't wait till Tuesday (or later, which i hope is not 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) to see what you came up with. I reckon it is newer/additional info then that in your last PM.


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## buddha01

Hello Masters..


 I believe you will find this product interesting also.

 OCZ's Neural Impulse Actuator..
OCZ's Neural Impulse Actuator - The Tech Report - Page 1


 It could be a good combination with the nurophone, the neural impluse actuator.

 There is also this product: Half Past Human - Speed Reading

 Basicly it flashes your words in the same spot and allows the absorbtion of many hundreds of words a minute, I thought this was interesting at least.


 Maybe in the near future learning will be like the matrix but untill then maybe asking questions about the combinations of available tech is a good thing.

 I hope the thread grows, I hope to post back when I can, am I to understand there is a team growing to build a nurophone?


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## organicphoto

It looks like this discussion has petered out, but if anyone is interested, I recorded an interview with Patrick Flanagan from a 2003 radio show where he talks about the role of the saccule in hearing ultrasonic frequencies through the skin. It's a really long interview, so you'll have to slug through several other topics interspersed with discussion about the neurophone.

 FYI, I did borrow a friend's Neurophone a couple years ago and confirmed that it works as advertised. I (and several friends) also confirmed that there's no audible sound from the probes, even if you put them right up against your ear at full volume. Both probes need to be in contact with your skin in order for it to work.

 I'm not an expert on this subject and I'm not trying to sell anyone on this, I'm just sharing what I learned from personal experience.


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## Jelle Schrijver

@organicphoto:

 third time is a sharm.....

 First of, welcome to head-fi.

 dgbiker1 and me had some further conversations through PM, but dgbiker1 is a very busy individual and my time has been consumed by a very interesting project. A complet new way of making sound. Very promising properties. I hope someday i could scale it enough down to use it as a headphone. Never thought a loudspeaker could outperform a headphone 

 The interview sounds very interesting. especially if it could contribute more info on this interesting technology. So if it is not to much trouble, please share. Is it not already on youtube?

 Also i am very curious about your real life experiences with the neurophone. What generation was it? Did you use it in conjunction with a headphone? How does it "sounds" solo? Did it take you long to get accustomed to the new way of hearing?

 Love to hear more....


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## Jelle Schrijver

Here is some info, If i find the time, i would try to contact the man to see if he is willing to share his schematic

neurophone
Translated to english


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## andreashahn

Hi all I have posted my Neurophone project in a new thread:
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/621552/hearing-with-ultrasound-using-a-neurophone


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## siris

Hey there, this thread caught my attention as I am very intrigued by Flanagans Neurophone as well as his other work. I just wanted to point out a link that I came across,  not sure if you all had seen this.      http://neurophone.wordpress.com/2012/08/05/make-a-diy-flanagan-neurophone-with-a-tl494/     It sounded like it may be a little limited in its functioning but could be a good place to start.  Peace.


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## bozomask

Hi,

Very interesting device, but if deaf people don't hear with it, it is not what it claims to be. So, can the deaf hear through it? Especially those that lost hearing through physical damage to the ear drum and connecting bones. They would be the most likely to benefit. Born deaf should likewise hear if it indeeds acts upon the brain itself. Thanks and I await an answer.

bozo


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## Adhanda888

I need to learn spanish quick. Have you noticed any such benefits using your circuit?
   
  Check out
   
  pat flanagan tesla society
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gd-52ZeMq_4
   
  pat flanagan 2005
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWxJsysqNu4
   
  Alternative Energy Hour
  Pat announces HE is the reincarnation of TESLA.....................
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWxJsysqNu4
   
  Cheers!
   
  adhanda888@gmail.com


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## wiinippongamer

So, did anyone end up getting Flanagan's neurophone??


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## andreashahn

So it turns out Flanagan's Neurophone does two things:
  - It replaces the rising and falling edges of the audio signal wave with edges that have the _slope_ of a 40-50kHz ultrasonic wave. The 40kHz carrier is unimportant, the slope is key.
  - It then double differentiates and highpass filters the result. This mimicks what would happen if you fed the signal into an antenna and then received the electromagnetic waves with your brain! The double-differentiated signal is now converted to mechanical energy with a piezo speaker, bypassing the brain's radio receiver.
   
  The implication of this is that there are bits of our brain that act as a radio receiver with 100kHz bandwidth, and can process incoming audio. Which is crazy.


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