# 6922 Tube Review - 17 Top 6922 6N23P E88CC CCa 7308 E188CC tubes



## rb2013 (Jul 30, 2020)

The idea of the Grand Tube Review came from my long (20yr+) tube rolling history with the 6DJ8/6922/6N23P/E88CC tube type. I have always been amazed at the sound quality improvements that some of the better of these tubes made.

 Most recently I have been active on the Lyr tube rolling threads, but also use this tube in my modded DAC, and in two integrated amps that drive different speaker systems. So I have lots of places to try these tubes and have found they make a major difference in each application.

 A few years ago, after researching different 6922 type tubes, I stumbled on to what I thought were some pretty amazing sounding Russian tubes. After spending a year sorting and categorizing the different years and constructions, I found some I thought were the best 6922 type I had ever heard.  I'd had a long experience with the top Siemens, Amperex, Philips,etc...so the sound quality of these tubes came as shock to me.

 As much as I found these tubes to be really special – I always had a nagging feeling that the best of the very best of the 6922's out there – like the legendary Siemens early 60's Cca's or the Amperex 6922 '60's Pinched Waists, even the amazing Telefunken E188CC's would be better. I had never compared directly the Siemens CCa's against this Russian glass, but just remembered how they had sounded.  I wanted to do a direct comparison.  Especially after reading other tube shootouts (see the HK Audio Club 6DJ8 tube shootout link below). So I decided to assemble these awesome tubes together and give them an intense one week roll-a-thon. To see what's what. And so on to the review and my conclusions.

 PS Note these are just one audiophile's impressions on his unique systems and with his personal preferences. So as always you may not agree and YMMV!

http://hktubeaudio.homestead.com/files/6dj8.html

*System*
 I have been upgrading my system for a couple of decades with each component rolled many times – and I feel it has never sounded better.

 Quick story on how I came to use the Schiit Lyr. After owning a half dozen really nice headphone amps, both tube and solid state, I read the 6moons review of the Lyr, and decided to give it a try. My last amp before the Lyr was the Woo WA6 - SE that I'd owned for over a year and had tweeked and tube rolled to perfection (Mullard '50s 5U4G Black Base, 6EM7/Woo Adapters). The Woo was extremely smooth with a fantastic mid-range – the Lyr with stock tubes was more dynamic and exciting – but rough around the edges. So I started tube rolling, and after a year and over 50 different tubes, I found some that hit the mark. And with these the Lyr was exceeding (to my ears and system) the Woo. The thing about the Lyr – it's very sensitive to tube changes. A perfect microscope to exam the different 6922 type tubes.

 Last note on my system – it is far from typical. $6,500 DAC, $750 ICs, etc.. So this review should be read with this in mind. I have two speaker systems as well as a reference for my headphone system. As always YMMV!

 Custom PC Music Server (Win 7, Foobar)>Synergistic Research Tesla USB>Modded Gustard U12>Audio Sensibility Statement Silver Reference SE 1.5M Coax SPDIF>APL DAC>Aural Thrills BCS IC Tube based Active Shielding>Lyr>HD800/Moon Black Dragon V2

 Other equipment: SR Tesla electrical sockets, Synergistic Research X2 Ref Active Shield PCs for the Lyr and the APL, Shunyata Venom PCs on the PC Server, Modded Gustard U12, Aural Thrills Active Shielding Box, Tubemonger new tube risers, Still Point Mini Footers under the Lyr, Synergistic Research MiG isolation devices under the APL, Richard Gray Pro 400 power conditioner.  Elfidelity SATA and fan filters on PC server. 

 Info on the APL DAC - I had the NWO and traded down to it's little brother to raise some funds.  Same basic design but with 6 AKM 32-bit DAC's per channel instead of 10 for the NWO, ECC99 Class A output, Lundhal transformer coupled, Super Clock, etc....  http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/aplhifi/nwo30go.html

 Aural Thrills Tube Powered Biased Cable System (Mullard 60's 12au7) Interconnects http://www.auralthrillsaudio.com

 6Moons Review of the Lyr headphone amp:
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/schiit/9.html

 Audio Sensibility - Digital Cable - Statement Sliver SE Reference SPDIF RCA/RCA 1.5M
http://audiosensibility.com/blog/pr...Cable-***-New-***/p/46391588/category=4059160

 Synergistic Research Tricon Tesla USB cable:
http://www.soundstage.com/index.php...ch-tesla-tricon-usb-cable&catid=36&Itemid=146

 Links to my other threads on Headfi:
 R2R DAC Mod Project
http://www.head-fi.org/t/740362/lite-dac60-pcm1704-r2r-tubed-dac-mod-project
 SSD Fanless Music Server Project
http://www.head-fi.org/t/754654/new-pc-music-server-build-project-all-ssd-no-fans
 Soekris R2R DAC Technical Specs:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/754547/the-soekris-r-2r-dac-technical-details
 Gustard U12 USB Interface:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/754654/new-pc-music-server-build-project-all-ssd-no-fans

*Sound Qualities*
 As I thought about the best way to do this kind of tube review – with so many tubes – I had run into a 6DJ8/6922 tube shootout that was done some time ago. They had used a point system for each attribute, so I decided to follow their lead. Instead of the five they used, I chose ten separate audio criteria. So here is a brief description of the sound attributes each tube was judged for:

*Clarity*
 The ability of the tube to deliver a clear presentation of the entire frequency spectrum, but most importantly the upper mid-range through the extended highs. Sometimes referred to as 'air' or 'transparency'.

*Detail*
 The ability of a tube to deliver the deepest layers of detail. These deep hidden layers can go a long way to revealing the subtle ambient clues that help build a truly 3D holographic presentation (more on that in Sound Stage). But highly detailed tubes can also reveal background vocals, percussion, those little cymbal rattles or bells, many interesting aspects of the recording that add to their enjoyment.

*Bass*
 Well quantity and quality. Definition, and timbre being important for a natural and realistic sound (see Naturalness).

*Musicality*
 Does the tube give an edginess to the treble, or is it smooth and relaxed. Is there a bit of hardness, glassiness or harshness – very evident on female vocals and some instruments like the vibraphone and piano.  Tubes excel and generally beat solid state in Musicality and what at tracks folks (me for sure) to tubes.   A rich natural tone is one of my most important criteria - I have yet to hear a solid state pre-amp beat a tube one in this regard.

*Flow*
 Something I found with the best tubes – the ability to capture and hold your attention. For the very best an almost hypnotic or mesmerizing quality. Time seems to be suspended as the music holds your attention.

*Sound Stage*
 As mentioned under detail, the ability of the tube to project a truly holographic sound. Think of 3D musical point sources radiating out in all directions in the sound field. Not just the main frontal projection, but the subtle back and side reflections that recreate the original venue. Versus layered flattish cardboard cutouts staggered in the sound field. Also judged as to the width and depth of the sound stage itself. Image focus and resolution as well.

*Euphonics*
 The good kind! Sometimes the term 'Euphonics' is given as a negative – a kind of woolly unnaturalness. I refer to it here in the positive sense of the ability to convey emotion, and deliver a warm pleasing effect. Sort of goes hand in hand with Musicality – but with more of an emphasis on the ability to connect the listener (in this case me) with the emotions of the music. I look for the richness of tone as a good measure – maybe not the most realistic in balance.  Here is another area where tubes can outshine solid state - giving a warmth to the sound.

*Transience/Micro-Dynamics*
 This for me is very important. A tube being able to deliver a realistic and exciting presentation. It's the tubes immediacy and precision of effect. The attack of the initial frontal wave, followed by the natural trailing off of harmonics. Think of the snap of a guitar string or strike of a snare. Is it crisp and defined? Or a just a little closed in – rolled off - slow on the impulse wave. This is an area where solid state excels and tubes can seem sluggish.  I can see some would like a 'softer' more laid back presentation. But for me, this one of the deciding traits of the very best audio and tubes.

*Scale/Macro-Dynamics*
 So here the measure is the ability of the tube to deliver power and composure when the going gets loud and/or complex. Where other tubes seem to hit the wall and turn muddy, smeared, and compressed when pushed to the upper limit in output – the best seem to have an unending power reserve. On these intense passages the best tubes are a rush to hear! It's breathtaking. Exciting. They maintain their focus and clarity – the sound stage never collapsing or flattening. A judgment of dynamic compression when pushed hard.

*Naturalness/Realism*
 The balance of tonality – is it realistic? Natural? Close to a live instrument? Being a guitarist I have a good feel for what a real guitar (acoustic) sounds like. Is the tube overly titled in one direction or another. The late great Harry Pearson founder of 'The Absolute Sound' used the Yin-Yang analogy. Yin for airiness - a treble tilt, Yang for a rich creamy mid-range and tilt to the bass. For me the best tubes get it right in the middle and actually have heaps of both.

*Tube vs. Solid State*
 A note on the use of tube vs. solid state in audio gear. It's amazes me that after 40 years since the peak of tube use in stereo gear - they are still widely praised. In fact, many of the best audio manufacturers state of the art equipment is tube based. Why, you have to ask yourself? With all the attendant issues with tube equipment – why the popularity in the high end audio arena today? After all, solid state transistor science has evolved tremendously in that 40 years.

 Well I spent my first half dozen years as a serious audio hobbyist (when I could finally afford the 'good' stuff) strictly solid state. I went through much expensive and highly regarded equipment; Krell, Pass Labs, Threshold, etc... These amps, pre-amps, cd players, DAC's had great detail and lightning fast transient response. Tremendous frequency extension at both ends - boom & sizzle! But after long listening sessions I found my ears fatigued and generally unsatisfied with the sound. What was missing?

 So I started researching and discovered the early (when it was good) 'The Absolute Sound' magazine, this was back in the late 90's. The founder and main writer, who passed away last year, Harry Pearson was just an amazing audiophile. He had a different message then the stalwart 'High Fidelity' and 'Audio' magazines – where the lab bench tests were king. HP was different – he trusted his ears – and his mantra was tubes were where it was at! He spoke eloquently about their warm rich tonality, holographic imaging, forgiving nature and long listening satisfaction. Well this sent me down a whole other audio path – where I found much greater satisfaction. Going through a dozen really nice tube amps and pre-amps. I mean sota stuff like the Conrad Johnson ACT2 pre and Response Audio modded Hurricanes (200 watt 8 kt-88 tubes per channel mono blocks) to an Airtight 300b (8 watts of SET 300B magic), on and on it went. I was happy and much more satisfied then the all solid state stuff.  After having lived in both worlds for an extended period of time - I found that there are things tubes can do that no solid state I have heard can achieve.  One it is often referred to as Euphonics. 

 But some things were lacking – the air, transparency, speed, bass depth and control - I had before. So I finally stumbled on to the hybrid design. Tubes in the pre – solid state (preferably Class A) amp/outputs. At last I had it all. Funny how even today for example, the audio engineering genius Dr. Fang founder of HiFiMan would use this very design for his new statement amp the EF1000, to mate with his statement headphones (and well may be the new headphone kings), the HE1000's. Well not much is know yet about his sota creation, other then it's hybrid in design using a Mosfet Class 'A' solid state amp section and a 6922 tube pre-amp section. Don't you think a man of his caliber couldn't make a kick ass all solid state headphone amp? But no it appears he has chosen a different path. This amp is now the electronics that he is using to show case the HE1000 headphones at the latest audio shows. Rumor has it – you will have to buy them together! Or well at least be strongly encouraged. This amp has my very keen interest. It can drive speakers to 50Watts of class 'A' power – very nice.

 And so, back to the tube review. I was looking for 6922 compatible tubes that did the same. Had the speed and transient presence, but coupled with tube liquidity and warmth. A very difficult combination to find. And I have found them! Read on to see which.

*Song Tracks**:*
 I tried to choose a variety of music, so combined music from different genres - Alt Rock, Emo Rock, Classic Rock, Vocals, Classical, Jazz and New Age. The tracks were chosen because I know them very well and have particular passages I felt highlighted one or more sound qualities. And well I had to like them enough to listen to them 17 times in a row in one sitting.

*Florence and the Machine – Album 'Lungs - 'Dog Days Are Over' Emo-Rock*
 Difficult, powerful female vocals. Multilayer-ed recording with sometimes as many a three vocals layers at one time. Combining into some very difficult loud and complex passages – perfect to test the Scalability of a tube.

*Led Zeppelin – Album 'Presence' – 'Nobody's Fault But Mine' Classic-Rock*
 A great test of a classic Zepp recording. Jimmie Page's power guitar playing, Bonham's monster drumming, Plant's strong vocals. Can a tube make this '70s rock track smoother and yet keep it exciting? This was was a blast to listen to – even after having heard it hundreds or thousands of times before. Mission accomplished. It never sounded better!

*Seether – Album 'Disclaimer II' – 'Gasoline' Alt- Rock*
 Talk about guitar overdrive power chords and power drumming! I saved this track for Saturday night, so I could take a few swigs of beer between tubes to settle down a bit. It had my pulse racing every time. On some of the tubes just a Power Rush! Wow! Not for those with heart conditions or those faint of heart. (Explicit Lyrics)

*Chick Corea and Return to Forever – Album 'Romantic Warrior' – 'Sorceress' Jazz*
 For me one of the best of the '70s Jazz fusion recordings. Lenny White's great drumming. Including some awesome tympani work. Di Meola and Corea dueling each other – Stanley Clark providing the Bass.

*Joni Mitchell – Album 'Court and Spark' – 'Down to You' Vocals*
 Over the decades this has been one of my go to test tracks. All the way back before CD's. Tom Scott's excellent clarinet work. This is one I use to test the Euphonic ability to connect with the emotions of the performer. Also a section where she overloads the Apex recorders – is very, very difficult for any audio gear to get smooth and right. Some of the best tubes just nailed it!

*George Benson – Album 'White Rabbit' – 'White Rabbit' Jazz*
 Great blend of older more classic Jazz and newer styles. All kinds of winds and horns.
 A brass instrument like a trumpet can really show off a tube's Transient capabilities, flute their Musicality and Clarity. And one of the most difficult instruments for a tube to get right - the Vibraphone. Most tubes will sound awful with terrible ringing and harshness. Some in this test blew me away at how good they were.

*Locatelli -Krecek – Album 'Concerto Grossi Op1 Nos 1-6' – 'II Largo, III Allegro, IV Largo' Classical*
 This track is one of my favorites – a great test of the natural tonality of classic instruments. Euphonic connection as well. I look for a natural rich and full tone – without going overboard. Layers of instruments at times. Nice string dynamics on the 'IV Largo' opening.

*George Winston – Album 'Autumn' – 'Longing, Loving' New Age*
 Quintessential Winston Piano solo. Can the tube deliver all the amazing harmonics of his piano? Sound natural and real? You'd think a solo piano would be a breeze for any tube – not at all. On the opening piano notes he let's their overtones trail off for seconds. How far into the blackness can a tube deliver the lowest level of these? Some seem to extend almost infinitely.

*Results:*
 Well I did this tube shootout the hard way – rotating all tubes on every track in one sitting. That was 136 tube rolls over the course of a week. I did this so I could compare each tube on the same track while it was fresh in my mind. In fact, I used a spreadsheet and marked a 1-13 point assignment for each attribute as I was listening, in ½ point increments. Then after each tube I would look at the scoring and make slight adjustments after the entire track was over – sometimes re-listening to that tube if I was unsure. I also occasionally ran the top tubes against each other. I would also change the order of the tubes in rotation.

 And here is the final ranking! The point average across all songs to the right.


*Reflektor Holy Grail '75 6N23P SWGP Silver Shields *121.7*Siemens Cca Gray Shield '63s*117.8*Siemen Cca Gray Shield '65s*117.5*Telefunken Ulm E188CC '60s *117.3*Reflektor '74 6N23P SWGP Silver Shields *116.1*Amperex PW D Getter*115.2*Philips Miniwatt SQ E188CC Herleen Halo Getter VR9 '64 *114.2*Amperex USN-CEP 7308 White '65 VR5*113.7*Voskhod '75 6N23P Gray Shield SWGP *111.3*Amperex 7308 Green Print '68*109.1*Siemens E88CC '60s Gray*107.6*Telefunken Ulm E88CC '60s *107.5*Reflektor 6N23P '65 Dual Straight Wire Getter*106.8*Valvo Herleen E88CC '67 Large Halo Getter *106.3*Nevz 6N1P-E '66  *105.3*Siemens E88CC '70s Silver *100.0*Mullard England CV2492 *94.6
 
 *A sharp eyed dealer has spotted those Mullard Cv2492's as fakes - originally made in by Ei in Yugoslavia.  No wonder they ranked so low.  Buyer Beware Ebay!

 I will add the ranking by song and attribute later.

*Tube Comments:*
 Any references to the 10 tube attributes scored are capitalized so you know exactly what I'm referring to (see the Sound Qualities descriptions). The point averages were obtained from the total sum of all 8 songs and divided by 8, for an average song point total. The song totals were an average of all sound attributes for that tube on that song. The tubes were swapped through the whole lineup for each song in one sitting this took 6 hours or more. Starting fresh for each new rolling session with a new song – going through the whole lineup, etc...

 By ranking:

 The Number 1 tube in my shootout!

*#1 Reflektor 6N23p '75 Silver Shield Single Wire Getter Post (HG's) - 121.7 Ave Points*
 These amazing tubes finished #1 in 7 of the 10 sound quality categories. With 121.7 points a distinct winner! They do some things I have not heard from any of the other tubes – at least not to their extent. First off they have the greatest detail of any tube in the review, and the highest amount of Clarity while remaining completely Musical, with a warm naturally rich tone. Superb balance of air and transparency with positive Euphonics. But where they truly outclass all the other tubes, including the legendary Siemens '60's CCa's, is their realism. In particular, the Transience of these tubes stand apart from the others (well the little brother '74 is very close in this department), they are without doubt the 'fastest' tubes in the group.  I'm talking solid state fast and precise, but with tube liquidity and warmth.  There is an immediacy to the sound, crisp and tonally dense, never etched or brittle. Just the right amount of attack and decay of the waveform.  A quick and clear transient dynamics, but warm and relaxed at the same time – breathtaking! Thinking about it a little more the word 'presence' comes to mind - they produce a spooky real presence.

 The other stand out is their Scale/Macro-Dynamics – they seem to have endless reserves of energy – never losing clarity, focus and holography. As for the Sound Staging - they have a unique presentation with a spotlight of focus on center stage, some call them 'forward', and I agree. But the Sound Stage is as wide and deep as the best – at times the sound field seems to just envelop you - extending from wall to wall – then seemingly around you. Well at least on my HD800's. Sounds appearing behind you can be quite startling – I sometimes had to take my headphones off as I thought I heard my wife speaking behind me. Part of the magic of this Sound Staging is the amazing detail retrieval of these tubes, you can hear the faint echos off the back and side walls, that help replicate the recording venue. The imaging is pinpoint precise, with an inner lit quality. I find they are the most holographic of all the tubes in the review.

 Vocals are smooth and grain less – even on the female vocals, which can sound a bit pitched on lessor tubes. To illustrate their Scalability/Macro Dynamics for example, on 'Dog Days' (at minute 3:50) during the chorus, Welch shows her vocal power and these tubes stay right with her – never running out of juice. The other tubes don't quite capture the vocal intensity as it climaxes. Always smooth and Musical on these loud and complex passages – with the tubes pushed to their seeming limit - the image never flattens, the sound stage never shrinks. They present the music as whole cloth – without holes or seams – one grand unified place.  On the HD800's that slight center focus is helpful to create the effect of a live performance, as their very wide staging can sometimes be too wide - dissecting the sound field into left, right and center. This center forwardness brings the center into spotlight like it should be.

 On Seether's 'Gasoline' they have grip and bite on Morgan and Callahan's ripping power guitar chords. As someone said to me recently, they capture the 'crunch/bite' of overdrive guitars. On Josh Freese's power drums – awesome! Cavernous deep and tight – cymbal work crisp and real. Great stuff! Morgan's intense vocal screams never harsh or overloaded - again these tubes supply the power and then some. And everything in holographic clarity - crisp and decisive. What I a call my 'HG' or 'Holy Grail' tube. For me they are the tubes to measure all the others against.

 On Benson's White Rabbit they did the vibraphone thing perfect. The one criticism and the reason they only finished #3 overall on Bass ( a very close #1, #2 and #3) – at minute 2:53 there are some kit drums that come in from the extreme right channel – with the center focus on Benson's guitar - they were just a notch less noticeable with these tubes. That was the only flaw I found in the whole week of reviewing them.

 George Winston's piano solo – on the opening he strikes a few piano notes and on the last one he let's it trail off for seconds. On the HG's it seems the overtones trail longer and deeper into an ink black background then the other tubes.

 Finally, the last area they truly excelled at – Flow. They had the ability to just stop time, as one track flowed by and sometimes spilled into the next. It was hard to stop listening and go to the next tube. I just wanted to sit there and let the rest of the album keep going. Believe it or not, after 6 hour rolling sessions, I would put the HG's back in and finish the album with a cold one. What else can you say...completely addictive.

 Sources are various Ebay dealers – I have sold some pairs I've managed to assemble. Mainly for feedback from others – to see if they sound as good in their systems and to their tastes as mine. Not unanimous but for nearly everyone they've hit the mark. Including more then a few folks with Siemens Cca's and other great tubes! For those who found them forward they tend to love the Holland sound – so another path for some to explore.

 The particular pair I used for this review was not some special pair – but my only spare backups. No month matching, but output matched.

 Value for the money? Well when compared to tubes cost well north of $400/pr – and for me beating them. What's their value??

 So how did the other tubes fair? On to number two.

*Tie for #2 Siemens CCa's – '65 Gray Shield (printed plate codes), '63 (and '62) Gray Shield (etch glass codes) - 117.8 & 117.5 Ave Points*
 Well these tubes deserve their legendary reputation. They are simply incredible. The early '60s were just a hint warmer but less incisive. Or that could just be tube variances. The '63/'62 combination ended with 117.8 ave point score and the '65s 117.5 – a dead heat in my view. And they share the same characteristics. Excellent tone, superb detail, deep controlled bass (ranking slightly above the #1 HG's). They do every thing right – why not number one then? Well as I said, the things that the HG's do are so extraordinary that they are a notch above (see #1 review), especially in the Transience and Flow departments. The CCa's are just a tad less Musical – but very Musical in their own right. I never heard a hardness or glassiness in all the recordings. But the HG's were closer to the even warmer Amperex D Getter PW's and Philips MiniWatt E188CC's. That said, the CCa's are very neutral in overall presentation and balance. Excellent holographic Sound Stage. They just did not deliver the level of excitement or realism of the #1 tubes, for me.

*#3 Telefunken E188CC 60's Ulm, Germany – 117.3 Ave Points*
 Man these are some sweet tubes – finishing just a hair below the CCa's with 117.3 (really a three way tie for #2). A bit sweeter then the CCa's, with a Musicality and Euphonics actually greater then the HG's. Sort of between the best Holland tubes and the HG's in the Euphonics department, finishing at #3 in that category. Excellent Clarity, Detail and transparency – just less then the HG's and CCa's – finishing #4 and #5 respectively. They just seem to get it right in a very nice way – I could listen to them for hours. Bass was deep with excellent definition – ranked at a tie there for #2 with Amperex PW and Philips Miniwatts.

*#4 Reflektor '74 Silver Shield Single Wire Getter Post – 116.1 Ave Points*
 Well like it's better brother – it shares many of the same excellent characteristics. Especially the rich natural tone and incisive Transience. Where do they differ? They have just a bit less Clarity, Detail and Scale – finishing at #3, #4 and #3, respectfully. In two main aspects they are not quite to the HG's level as well, the Yang side of the equation Musicality, Euphonics and Naturalness. They seem to lack a bit of the HG's warm natural & rich tone and ultimate smoothness. While never disagreeable in their own right – they were a notch below the very best of the best in these categories. This was very stiff competition, not your ordinary vintage tube lineup – so to finish fourth is quite an accomplishment! I would say they are also a touch less forward then the HG's and so may appeal to some folks – who might find the HG's overpowering.

*#5 Amperex '60s 6922 D Getter Pinched Waist Holland - 115.2 Ave Points*
 Well as compared to the tubes above these are a whole other breed. One that some folks may greatly prefer to the German/Russian house sound. They finished #1 in two categories – Musicality and Euphonics. Just as warm and forgiving as any tube I have heard – this tube is just sublimely rich in tone, gorgeous on female vocals. Tonal color beautiful – the Holland sound at it's best. Amazing bass – finishing in a tie for #2. All these better then the #1 HG's. And depending on your sound preferences and system could be your #1, same applies to the Tele E188CC's. It all comes down to your personal tastes (what I'm saying is YMMV!). But for me they were not #1, or #2 or #3, or #4. Why? They lacked that ultimate Transient realism and excitement. Just slightly less forward, more laid back then the others. Polite is a great word – never offending – but never producing goosebumps as well. The more I listen to these tubes, well tubes in general, the more I appreciate what the HG's do – EXCITE! Thrill! Their immediacy, lending a kind sparkle to the music. The HG's produce this inner lit quality that is so elusive, each instrument and singer radiating out into space, so natural and incisively real. The Holland tubes just did not have that precision. The PW's produce delicious sounds on all kinds of music – not the most natural – but a ton of fun.

*#6 Philips Miniwatt SQ E188CC Halo Getter '64 Herleen, Holland- 114.2 Ave Points*
 Ok the trip to lovely Herleen Holland continues! Superb tube! Warm and Musical, with a rich Euphonic tone finishing #5 and #2, respectively. Beautiful on vocals. On Winston's piano solo – noted 'Tone! Nice Tone!' They portrayed the piano with a rich color – though the opening overtones did not extend as far into the blackness as some of the other more detailed tubes. But the tone was creamy smooth, really nice. Great Detail and Clarity finishing at #6 and #7 – not at the level of the top German and Russians, but nothing lacking unless measured in comparison. Bass tied for #2 with the best – deep, articulate. Well done. This is just a great tube of the money – and a Best Buy at under $200/pr.

*#7 Amperex USN-CEP 7308 '65 White Print 'O' Getter USA– 113.7Ave Points*
 From all the non-Russian tubes I found these to be the closest in personality to the HG's. They finished with excellent scores for Clarity and Detail, #5 and #6. Very good Scale and Transience, at #4 and #5. They have a clean, incisive presentation, a bit forward , but also very good Euphonics and Musicality. Like the HG's they combine all these differing and many times competing attributes together in one neat package. These have always been my favorite Amperex tube. There was no one area they were weak in, Bass was nice and deep, ranking at #4. A couple of comments – I have had these in the past and I have to say the 7308's sound better to me then the 6922 version. But as always YMMV. A definite 'Best Buy' tube under $175/pr.

*#8 Voskhod 6N23P '75 Gray Shield Single Wire Getter Post – 111.3 Ave Points *
 The Ruskies that started me on this quest for every 6N23P/6N1P vintage I could find. You can read my original review from nearly two years ago. They were the best 6N23P I could find at the time – until I stumbled onto those rare '75 and '74 Reflektor Silver SWGP's. They are still my #3 6N23P and ran very well in this tube Olympics. Talk about tough competition! Well they held their own and nearly tying the USN 7308's. I still find they have incredible Flow – at times I was just lost in the music, even though these came far down the listening cue. It didn't seem to matter – they had the 'magic'. Bass as well was excellent finishing at #5. They did not have as open of a presentation as the top tubes, nor the deepest level of detail. But a great natural tone and Musicality. Definitely a 'Best Buy' under $100/pr.

*#9 Amperex 7308 '68 Green Print USA 'O' Getter – 109.1 Ave Points*
 Very nice tubes. Not as good as it's earlier USN brother - despite what some say – these sounded good but the USN-CEP sounded clearly better during this review. As with the USN's they had a nice balance for an Amperex. Nice rich natural tone with good Detail and Clarity. They beat out the Tele E88CC's and the Siemens E88CC's and that says a lot. They finished #7 in Clarity and #8 in Flow. In the Bass category they finished #6. Very similar in personality to the USN's just not as good, but also less expensive. A 'Best Buy' under $120/pr

*#10 Tie Siemens '65 E88CC Gray Shields (Stamped Plate Date Codes) – 107.6 Ave Points*
*Telefunken 60's E88CC Ulm, Germany – 107.5 Ave Points*
 Well two well know and great examples of the German vintage house sound. In a 'normal' tube shootout, I'm sure these would have scored much higher. But up against a couple of pairs of CCa's, a pair PW's and the Tele 188's – Ugg! But don't let the ranking dissuade you from these awesome tubes. Nice Detail, and Clarity, good Sound Stage and Bass. Not the last word in Euphonics, but Musical enough. I feel the Tele's should have ranked a bit higher – one of the tubes started to develop a slight low level buzz near the end of the review and may be going bad. They still had really nice warmth for their level of Detail. Of the two - the Tele is the warmer, the Siemens is the more detailed. Comparing the Siemens E88CC to the Siemens CCa of the same year – well the CCa's were clearly superior in nearly every respect, and not just subtly better either. I would say both of these tubes are 'Best Buys' under $175/pr.

*#11 Reflektor 6N23P '65 Dual Straight Wire Getter Posts – 106.8 Ave Points*
 I found these very, very rare tubes in my hunting for Russian glass. They are not the common dual dimpled plate getter post Reflektors you can easily find. These are way better. At first, I was hoping they would be better then the HG's. So decided to include them in the review. Well they are very nice – smooth and laid back. They lack the Detail and Transience of their much better relatives, the '75 and '74 SWGP Silvers. But not as forward as well. A really pleasant tube to listen to. Their best finish was #8 in Clarity. Oh well – they're not top of the heap glass but way better then stock.

*#12 Valvo E88CC Herleen '67 Large 'O' Getter White Print – 106.3 Ave Points*
 Well here we have a nicely Euphonic tube but again against some super star competition. I didn't find them objectionable, nor exceptional. Just good, sweet sounding, warmish tone and Musical. Sound Stage was below average as were the dynamics, but that is below average for this group. Not below average against say an Amperex OG, or PQ orange shield or BB. I would say they are better then those. A truly 'Best Buy' at $80/pr

*#13 Nevz 6N1P-E '66 Triple Mica, Black Anode – 105.3 Ave Points*
 Easily the best 6N1P I have heard and I have almost all of them. Very energetic and lively. Fun to listen to. Not bad as far as Musicality – a few times I cringed a bit – but mostly it was smooth sailing. They run very hot and are not compatible with the Lyr 2. A good buy at $70-$50/pr depending on source.

*#14 Siemens '70s E88CC Silver Shield – 100 Ave Points*
 Well these were a come down from the greats, but again much better then stock. I ran a stock pair GE 6BZ7's for one song and I would say it would rate in the mid to high 80's for ave points. So these are clearly a step up. The issue with these was a lack of Musicality and warmth. Kind of a cold tonality, just a little thin on the bones. Good detail – not just not hitting the mark for me.

*#15 Mullard CV2492 – Made in England. - 94.6 Ave Points*
These were by far the biggest disappointments for me, as I had heard so many good things about them. I could not find a factory or date marker on this particular pair, just 'Made in England'. I know there are much better English tubes out there – just not these. Again, not awful – better then stock. Their biggest weakness lack of detail and a closed in sound.  Part of the problem is the level of game of the top tubes – just a tough crowd to stand out in. One day I will try and get a pair of the '60s CV2493 Blackburn Mullards – I hear those are excellent.
 Note: A sharp eyed dealer has spotted these as fakes - after sending him more detailed pictures he has found a mark indicating they were made by Ei in Yugoslavia.  Thanks for the tip!  I'm not as familiar with the different UK tube constructions as I am with the German, Dutch, American and Russian tubes.

 2nd Note: The dealer gave me some good info to pass along on recognizing real Mullards:


> A Mullard manufactured tube will never say Made in England, because the Mitcham and Blackburn factories were in Gt. Britain. These should say British Made, Made in Gt. Britain or Made in Great Britain depending upon the era.


 

*Final Thoughts and Thank You's*
 A shout out to two members who were kind enough to lend me their precious glass. Guidostrunk for the '65 Siemens Cca's and Lekoross for the loan of the '60's Amperex 6922 D Getter Pinched Waists. Thanks guys!

 An additional thank you to Lekoross for doing a proofing on the review - I will add in his grammatical improvements next week.  Thanks again!

 Final note – this was a huge undertaking – but lots of fun. To spend so much quality time with this amazing lineup of tubes was quite rewarding. These are just one man's opinion, so take it for what it's worth. As always YMMV.

 Some pictures:
 The line up.  What a few thousand dollars worth of tubes looks like:


 Group 1 the Russians:
 Left to right: HG '75 Reflektor Silver SWGP '74 Reflektor Silver SWGP, '75 Voskhod Gray Shield SWGP, '65 Reflektor Dual Straight Wire Getter Post, Nevz '66 6N1P-E Triple Mica, Black Plates.


 Group 2 The Germans: Siemens '65 CCa Gray Shields, Siemens '63/'62 CCa Gray Shields, Telefunken E188CC '60s, Telefunken E88CC '60s, Siemens '65 E88CC Gray Shield, Siemens '63 E88CC Gray Shield, Siemens '70s E88CC Silver Shield.


 Group 3 Amperex Holland and US, Philips Miniwatt, Valvo, Mullard:
 Amperex 6922 D Getter '60s Pinched Waist, Philips MiniWatt '64 E188CC SQ Herleen, Valvo '67 O Getter Herleen E88CC, Amperex '65 USN-CEP 7308 White Print, Amperex '68 7308 Green Print, Mullard CV2492.


 Happy Rolling!

 Edit Loaded the wrong spreadsheet of the Results tally - fixed.

 Additional Resources:
 HK Tube Club's 6DJ8 tube shootout: http://hktubeaudio.homestead.com/files/6dj8.html
http://www.audioasylum.com/scripts/d.pl?audio/faq/joes-tubes.html#6DJ8
 My original Voskhod Rockets 6N23P review: http://www.head-fi.org/t/549508/schiit-lyr-the-tube-rolling-thread/8595
 Subsequent review of the Reflektor SWGP (posts 1914-1918):
http://www.head-fi.org/t/673709/schiit-lyr-tube-rollers/1905
 Brent Jesse (Great resource for tube date and factory codes):
http://www.audiotubes.com/chinese.htm
http://www.audiotubes.com/6dj8.htm
http://www.audiotubes.com/teledate.htm
http://www.audiotubes.com/mullcode.htm

 Tube World's Ranking of the best CCa's:


> *The Best Sounding CCa=6922 ever made* TOP 5: ----- 1) CCa Siemens & Halske 1950's "U" getter halo and 1960's "O" getter halo  "Rarest and most sought after CCa, has "gray shield" between plates,   Most realistic sounding holographic soundstage, pure seductive sonic joy,  complex symphonic images emerge effortlessly" 2) CCa Telefunken West Germany 1960's   "excellent neutral holographic soundstage, vast vocabulary of tone  establishes remarkable layers of harmonics, very rare" 3) CCa Siemens & Halske A-FRAME construction late 1960's - early 1970's  "beautiful open air holographic images, low microphonic tube construction, rare" 4) CCa LORENZ West Germany early 1960's  "beautiful open air holographic images, very rare" 5) CCa VALVO Heerlen Holland 1960's  "real sonic holography, extremely rare" 6) CCa Siemens Rohre A-Frame early 1973-1974 (in stock, silver shield)


 
 Tube World's Rank of the Best 6922:


> *The Best Sounding 6922=E88CC Gold Pins ever made* (SEE THE 6922 POLL RESULTS FOR CUSTOMER FEEDBACK REGARDING 6922's) 6922 Amperex Holland "Pinched Waist" 1958, many branded Valvo 6922 or CCa Siemens Halske 1950's - 1960's (airy highs, great detail, solid bass) 6922 or CCa Telefunken 1950's - 1960's 6922 Amperex "PQ" Holland Gold Pins white printing 1960-1966 (older the better) 6922 Amperex Holland branded Amperex or Philips Miniwatt or Mullard Holland   or Philips Holland "SQ" 1960's 6922 Mullard 1960's CV2493=E88CC-01 Mullard late 1960's to mid-1970's 6922 Amperex USA "PQ" white printing 1960's then orange printing 1967-1972 GB-6922 Sylvania GOld Brand Gold Pins 1960's 6922 Sylvania, many are branded RCA 1970's - 1980's 6922 Tesla Gold Pins - older stock (very good value)


 
https://www.tubeworld.com/index_high.htm

 Schiit Lyr and Lyr 2 tube compatibility list:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/755300/schiit-lyr-lyr-2-tube-compatibility-list

 Edit: Grammar and some phrasing - added Resources links
 Edit: Added System info
 Edit: Added the 'Tubes vs. Solid State' section
 Edit: Mullard's spotted as fakes by a keen eyed dealer. Review section on those updated.


----------



## stjj89

Amazing review! You have truly done a great service for tube rollers all over. Thanks Bob!


----------



## mikoss

Nice work Bob! Thanks


----------



## rb2013

Thanks - this was an all day effort an I loaded the wrong spreadsheet (from one of the songs not the final tally), it's fixed now.  Will add individual rankings by sound attribute tomorrow.
  
 Cheers!


----------



## MWSVette

Thanks Bob...


----------



## korzena

Amazing work! Thank you.


----------



## reddog

Just a fantastic review, thanks for taking the time to do such a comprehensive review. I hope in the next year to collect some of the tubes you mentioned. I must go now and calm down my panic stricken wallet.


----------



## sfo1972

+++++++++1, WOW Man....*this is absolutely freakin AWESOME!*
  
 Thank you so much for taking the time to write this amazing review and complete this marathon shootout..... I am for one indebted to you, because you just made my tube hunting expedition much easier and straight forward. What I appreciated the most was the complexity of your review. You described the characteristics of audio that you like and why, then you described tracks and what to look for in those tracks, you then overlayed the two to pinpoint "greatness" or not so much of different tubes.
  
 I want to go back and read this in great detail but I was overwhelmed with the amount of information that I had to blurt out this reply....so more to come later with questions and thoughts....but I will leave you with the look on my face right now:


----------



## rb2013

mikoss said:


> Nice work Bob! Thanks


 
 Thanks!
  


mwsvette said:


> Thanks Bob...


 
  
 Thanks!


korzena said:


> Amazing work! Thank you.


 
 Thanks!
  


reddog said:


> Just a fantastic review, thanks for taking the time to do such a comprehensive review. I hope in the next year to collect some of the tubes you mentioned. I must go now and calm down my panic stricken wallet.


 
 I feel your pain!
  


sfo1972 said:


> +++++++++1, WOW Man....*this is absolutely freakin AWESOME!*
> 
> Thank you so much for taking the time to write this amazing review and complete this marathon shootout..... I am for one indebted to you, because you just made my tube hunting expedition much easier and straight forward. What I appreciated the most was the complexity of your review. You described the characteristics of audio that you like and why, then you described tracks and what to look for in those tracks, you then overlayed the two to pinpoint "greatness" or not so much of different tubes.
> 
> I want to go back and read this in great detail but I was overwhelmed with the amount of information that I had to blurt out this reply....so more to come later with questions and thoughts....but I will leave you with the look on my face right now:


 
 LOL!  It was like giving birth!  I'll add more resources today.


----------



## billerb1

I will be honest with you. I had prepared my bunker for the earth to stop spinning on its axis if Bob didn't pick his HG's #1. The prospect of an Eternal Winter scared me. Now I can relax and enjoy the excellent roadmap your observations and interpretations provided for some of the best glass out there. Much appreciated Bob !


----------



## billerb1

Now what am I supposed to do with these 55 gallon drums of water and all this canned 
meat ???!!!!!


----------



## Tro95

Wow! Now where the hell can I buy some of these from?


----------



## rb2013

billerb1 said:


> I will be honest with you. I had prepared my bunker for the earth to stop spinning on its axis if Bob didn't pick his HG's #1. The prospect of an Eternal Winter scared me. Now I can relax and enjoy the excellent roadmap your observations and interpretations provided for some of the best glass out there. Much appreciated Bob !


 

 Thanks!  Honestly - I was a bit relieved, to see how the HG's fared against the legendary CCa's.  That initial rolling session - pre-review was drum roll time.  I was only hoping they would at least get close - the results blew away even my own expectations.  This whole experience gave a greater insight as to what the HG's do (for me) that is so special, and really the very best of audio (again for me) can achieve.  They are not perfect by any means - finishing below #1 in 3 of the 10 categories.  But what they do right is just...so right.
  
 There are other tubes I wish I had for the review like the '50s slant U-Getter Siemens CCa's, the Lorenz Stuttgart CCa's, Mullard CV2493 Blackburns, Amperex 1960 6922 USA D Getters, etc...  So I don't claim this is the last word...hardly...it's just the beginning.
  
 And those Dutch CCa's you found - those are awesome!  Drool! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Cheers!


----------



## rb2013

billerb1 said:


> Now what am I supposed to do with these 55 gallon drums of water and all this canned
> meat ???!!!!!


 
 LOL! Well I hope you have some good glass in there as well!
  


tro95 said:


> Wow! Now where the hell can I buy some of these from?


 
 I'll be listing in the classifieds many of the review tubes, like the Siemens CCa's and E88CC's and the Tele Ulm E188CC's, Valvo, Amperex, Mullard's etc...


----------



## rb2013

rb2013 said:


> I'll be listing in the classifieds many of the review tubes, like the Siemens CCa's and E88CC's and the Tele Ulm E188CC's, Valvo, Amperex, Mullard's etc...


 
 The CCa's, Tele 188's and Voskhod '75s are all sold.


----------



## sfo1972

Lucky bastards!!....hahaha....


----------



## rb2013

sfo1972 said:


> Lucky bastards!!....hahaha....


 

 Some get to have all the fun!


----------



## Chuckjones242

Bob you are a god amongst men, thank you for all the effort!


----------



## rb2013

chuckjones242 said:


> Bob you are a god amongst men, thank you for all the effort!


 

 no god for sure - just a fellow who's been obsessed with great music and the means to get the most of it. 
 But thanks for the kind words!


----------



## Hansotek

Well done, sir! This is going to be a fantastic resource for Head-fiers for years to come!

It's cool seeing where my Teles and Miniwatts stack up. Now that I have the HD800, I gotta get my hands on some HGs as well!


----------



## rb2013

hansotek said:


> Well done, sir! This is going to be a fantastic resource for Head-fiers for years to come!
> 
> It's cool seeing where my Teles and Miniwatts stack up. Now that I have the HD800, I gotta get my hands on some HGs as well!


 

 Cheers!


----------



## Guidostrunk

Excellent , work Bob. This will definitely help others , looking for the best of the best. Thanks for all your hard work!


----------



## rb2013

guidostrunk said:


> Excellent , work Bob. This will definitely help others , looking for the best of the best. Thanks for all your hard work!


 

 Thanks!  Your help was invaluable!  Thank you for the loan of the '65 CCa's.
 I think anyone of the top 4 tubes could be a person's #1 - depending on taste and system.  Well as you can see from my gushing - the HG's are mine.
  
 They make me want to dance!  Da!

  
  
 Cheers!


----------



## billerb1

rb2013 said:


> Thanks!  Your help was invaluable!  Thank you for the loan of the '65 CCa's.
> I think anyone of the top 4 tubes could be a person's #1 - depending on taste and system.  Well as you can see from my gushing - the HG's are mine.
> 
> They make me want to dance!  Da!
> ...




LOL !!!! Priceless.


----------



## rb2013

billerb1 said:


> LOL !!!! Priceless.


 

 You inspire me!


----------



## billerb1

rb2013 said:


> You inspire me!



 


Yes that is what I was put on earth to do. And seriously your efforts on this project are much appreciated by many. Cudos, Comrade!
I will add, as to your comment about any of your top 4 ranked tubes possibly being someone's potential #1 depending on sound signature preference....I would expand that to at least the top 7. Having heard them all except the Siemens CCa's, my #1 for a long time has been, as you know, the early 60's Holland Philips Miniwatts E188CC's, until I fluked into the Holland made Pinch Waists. The PW's are by far MY #1's now. The #7 ranked USN-CEP Amperex 7308 American made white prints are many's #1 as well. Sooo much exceptional glass out there. So little time. So little cash. Anyway, great job Bob. Know it was a labor of love.


----------



## rb2013

billerb1 said:


> rb2013 said:
> 
> 
> > You inspire me!
> ...


 

 Thanks -that means a lot -sincerely!
 I completely agree any of the top 7 could hit the mark for a roller.  I feel so lucky to have the opportunity to live with these for that week.  The review is long and comprehensive - but I wanted it to be a good resource for those coming new in to this great hobby. 
  
 I wanted to give back to the community I have so greatly benefited from.  Just some of the audio experience I've gained over a few decades.  And again just one persons perspective.
  
 Would love to see you do one as well - even if it's just the Dutch tubes.  And for someone to do one on the Great Britain tubes of the '50's, 60's and 70's.  There is much I could learn from that.
  
 Cheers!


----------



## reddog

rb2013 said:


> Thanks -that means a lot -sincerely!
> I completely agree any of the top 7 could hit the mark for a roller.  I feel so lucky to have the opportunity to live with these for that week.  The review is long and comprehensive - but I wanted it to be a good resource for those coming new in to this great hobby.
> 
> I wanted to give back to the community I have so greatly benefited from.  Just some of the audio experience I've gained over a few decades.  And again just one persons perspective.
> ...



Would love to see a review of the tubes of Great Britain. I was at the music store and a guy had a pair of Ediswan cv2492 tubes, on consignment, for 160 dollars. And such a review would be great.


----------



## rb2013

reddog said:


> Would love to see a review of the tubes of Great Britain. I was at the music store and a guy had a pair of Ediswan cv2492 tubes, on consignment, for 160 dollars. And such a review would be great.


 

 +1


----------



## billerb1

rb2013 said:


> Thanks -that means a lot -sincerely!
> I completely agree any of the top 7 could hit the mark for a roller.  I feel so lucky to have the opportunity to live with these for that week.  The review is long and comprehensive - but I wanted it to be a good resource for those coming new in to this great hobby.
> 
> I wanted to give back to the community I have so greatly benefited from.  Just some of the audio experience I've gained over a few decades.  And again just one persons perspective.
> ...


 
  
 Thanks for that little push right over the cliff.  Sounds way too much like work to me, Roberto.  I'm old.


----------



## mikoss

Lol, the Dutch tubes:
PW










All others.


----------



## billerb1

mikoss said:


> Lol, the Dutch tubes:
> 
> PW
> 
> ...



 


+1 No further questions, Your Honor. To me (and obviously to Mike aka Mikoss) there is the Amperex Holland house sound...and then there is the Holland house sound on steroids, the Pinched Waists. The house sound is supreme musicality with a uniquely saturated and majestic midrange, like no other that I've heard. And somehow the magnificence of the midrange doesn't detract from the bass and treble...a very difficult trick to pull off. Detailed but not to the analytic degree of some of the Siemens. To me the sound couldn't be more real, more enveloping, more pulsating or more engaging. The Shootout thought the PW's lacked the ability to cause goosebumps. I personally have never been more excited listening to a pair of tubes in my life. Period. Just a matter of different people hearing and responding emotionally to different things. I get it. But I now also understand why many audiophiles rank the Pinched Waists at the very top of the food chain. They are a different breed of cat.


----------



## rb2013

billerb1 said:


> +1 No further questions, Your Honor. To me (and obviously to Mike aka Mikoss) there is the Amperex Holland house sound...and then there is the Holland house sound on steroids, the Pinched Waists.


 
 Bill and Mike doing the Holland Jig!  LOL!


----------



## billerb1

rb2013 said:


> Bill and Mike doing the Holland Jig!  LOL!




LOL!!! Touché Comrade.
Cheers !!!


----------



## rb2013

billerb1 said:


> LOL!!! Touché Comrade.
> Cheers !!!


 

 All in good fun - they are awesome tubes!


----------



## m-i-c-k-e-y

To the OP, my dog send his kisses...great, great post. 
  
 I was on a searchr for a good matched pair of 6922s for my upcoming HPA.
  
 So I went hunting those 70s Reflektor 6N23P....


----------



## rb2013

m-i-c-k-e-y said:


> To the OP, my dog send his kisses...great, great post.
> 
> I was on a searchr for a good matched pair of 6922s for my upcoming HPA.
> 
> So I went hunting those 70s Reflektor 6N23P....


 

 Be sure they have only one curved wire getter post.  The much more common dual dimpled plate posts were also made those years and are much more common.
  
 Good luck on the hunt!


----------



## mikoss

rb2013 said:


> Be sure they have only one curved wire getter post.  The much more common dual dimpled plate posts were also made those years and are much more common.
> 
> Good luck on the hunt!


 
 What would be really great is a thread about the different Russian tubes, including their designations. I am very lost trying to decipher the tubes and the Cyrillic!


----------



## rb2013

mikoss said:


> What would be really great is a thread about the different Russian tubes, including their designations. I am very lost trying to decipher the tubes and the Cyrillic!


 

 It just so happens sfo1972 is working on that very project as we speak.  Kudos to him for the great service he has provided!


----------



## mikoss

rb2013 said:


> It just so happens sfo1972 is working on that very project as we speak.  Kudos to him for the great service he has provided!


 
 Wicked. Looking forward to that sfo1972.
  
 Bill we should do a Holland/Philips thread


----------



## rb2013

mikoss said:


> Wicked. Looking forward to that sfo1972.
> 
> Bill we should do a Holland/Philips thread


 

 That would be great!  And someone do a Great Brittan Mullard/GEC thread - that would be a big help for me


----------



## m-i-c-k-e-y

Sorry for my ignorance...
  
 Got any more pics for that 70s Reflektor 6N23P? Thanks in advance.


----------



## rb2013

m-i-c-k-e-y said:


> Sorry for my ignorance...
> 
> Got any more pics for that 70s Reflektor 6N23P? Thanks in advance.


 

 Sure here you go!


----------



## m-i-c-k-e-y

Thanks for the help!! Now on to look for it.


----------



## rb2013

Good Luck!  I hope you find a garage full some where!


----------



## MWSVette

rb2013 said:


> Good Luck!  I hope you find a garage full some where!


 

 I bet that's what you dream about a night...  A box of 75HG's in somebody's garage, lol.


----------



## korzena

mwsvette said:


> I bet that's what you dream about a night...  A box of 75HG's in somebody's garage, lol.


 
 In our own garage!


----------



## rb2013

mwsvette said:


> I bet that's what you dream about a night...  A box of 75HG's in somebody's garage, lol.


 

 I watch that show 'American Pickers' a lot - I love old motorcycles.  I imagine picking in Russia and crawling through some old soviet Space engineer's garage and finding boxes of them.  Then banging back a few shots of vodka to seal the deal. lol


----------



## m-i-c-k-e-y

All I can search for now is a matched pair 6N23P Voskhod Rocket Single Wire Grey Shield.
  
 My first try to tube rolling (crossing fingers of not being scammed)... Thanks for the help.


----------



## rb2013

m-i-c-k-e-y said:


> All I can search for now is a matched pair 6N23P Voskhod Rocket Single Wire Grey Shield.
> 
> My first try to tube rolling (crossing fingers of not being scammed)... Thanks for the help.


 
 A word of caution - approximately 40% of the tubes I have bought from these Eastern European and Russian Ebay dealers have failed testing or are noisy.  So Buyer Beware!  The '74 and '75 Reflektors silver shield SWGP (single wire getter post) can be found - but are rare and not easy to find.
  
 Good luck on your hunt!


----------



## Guidostrunk

Bob could have probably helped you out if you were looking for a great inexpensive set of Russian tubes. Hope it all works out for you. 


m-i-c-k-e-y said:


> All I can search for now is a matched pair 6N23P Voskhod Rocket Single Wire Grey Shield.
> 
> My first try to tube rolling (crossing fingers of not being scammed)... Thanks for the help.


----------



## m-i-c-k-e-y

Thanks Bro!
  
 Just new on these things and kind of don't want to bother other people from a newbie... 
  
@rb2013's article just helped me a ton.


----------



## Guidostrunk

You're definitely not a bother. Lol. Bob is the Russian tube guru. He has a lot of great tubes , at very reasonable prices. Dealing with him , you know that you're getting the best deal for premium tested tubes. Should the ones you've ordered not work out, send him a pm , for the real deal. Cheers


m-i-c-k-e-y said:


> Thanks Bro!
> 
> Just new on these things and kind of don't want to bother other people from a newbie...
> 
> ...


----------



## rb2013

guidostrunk said:


> You're definitely not a bother. Lol. Bob is the Russian tube guru. He has a lot of great tubes , at very reasonable prices. Dealing with him , you know that you're getting the best deal for premium tested tubes. Should the ones you've ordered not work out, send him a pm , for the real deal. Cheers


 

 Saint Nicholi Robert the III they call me.  lol!
  
 I have very few left over tubes - most of what I have for sale are the Amperex, Siemens, Valvo, (Ei Yugo)labeled Mullard.  I hope one of the tube dealers would start offering the '70s vintage Russians - maybe based on this review someone will.  I know that at least one has read it.  I realize they want to buy in large bulk packs.  Dealing with some of these Eastern European Ebay dealer is a horror show.  For example, found a single HG's but had to buy three other lessor tubes with it. When it arrived the HG failed grid emissions testing on my tube tester - Ugg!  Now these might or might not work in an amp  - but they could cause problems and will likely fail soon.  So I just thrown them in the 'Fail' box.  The dealer wants me to ship it back to the Ukraine for a refund!  Yeah right.


----------



## rb2013

Speaking of sales - I'm selling my prized tuner.  To raise funds for one of the new HiFiMan EF1000's.
 I'll post here in the classifieds later today.
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/231522988837?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649


----------



## m-i-c-k-e-y

PM sent


----------



## reddog

guidostrunk said:


> You're definitely not a bother. Lol. Bob is the Russian tube guru. He has a lot of great tubes , at very reasonable prices. Dealing with him , you know that you're getting the best deal for premium tested tubes. Should the ones you've ordered not work out, send him a pm , for the real deal. Cheers



+1 What he said.


----------



## sfo1972

All righty then...once again rb2013, many thanks for this great and detailed review. I am glad you broke this off the main Lyr tube rollers thread so we can come here for a discussion on the best of the best tubes. The analysis was excellent and insightful and sure will help tweak my critical listening and evaluation of tubes rolled in.
  
 Here are questions I would like to hear people's response to:
  
 1) Would it be safe to say that certain tubes lend themselves better to a certain genres than others? And if you are so picky, you can have a set of go-to tubes based on genre?
  
 2)  Given that your top 10 tubes are so close to each other in total points, would it be a fair statement for a new tube roller to shoot for owning any one of those top 10 and he/she would be in a good shape?
  
 3) I have always disregarded claims of cryo-treatment and the like for tube pins, given that your number 1 pick does't even have gold pins, are my beliefs corroborated? Cryo- and similar fancy treatment to pins is just another way to pay more for something that doesn't add much to the sonics of the tube?
  
 4) Why has the legendary aura built up so much around the S&H CCas, Amperex OGs Halo/O-Getters, Tele's CCas (i.e. the top tubes)? Is it the higher military specs, the increased lifetime of the heater, the low-noise / micophonics for these 6dj8 that make them so sought after?
  
 5) Where is the best place for a new tube rollers to acquire tubes? While I started on eBay, I have been exclusively buying from fellow members on the tube rolling thread because I trust them. Would you guys also recommend additional places like Brent Jesse, Upscale Audio, & others?
  
 Once again Bob, well done and thank you for the reviews.
  
 Cheers


----------



## Guidostrunk

Regarding #1 , I would say the hardest part is finding an all around tube. For me , even after owning the CCa's, the HG's are so far , an all around tube. Yes , the CCa's , did things better on a lot of songs, but also made me skip songs because of it's nature. With the HG's , I hit play and whatever plays, stays. I never feel the need to skip music. 
I also believe that synergy , plays a roll with gear. The right tube , with the right amp , with the right DAC, with the right phones , are all factors , in finding the "end game" rig. One of the things I've learned here, is ALWAYS trust your ears , first and foremost. Reviews , help, but at the end of the day , it's really preference , and synergy, upon hearing it imo. 





sfo1972 said:


> All righty then...once again rb2013, many thanks for this great and detailed review. I am glad you broke this off the main Lyr tube rollers thread so we can come here for a discussion on the best of the best tubes. The analysis was excellent and insightful and sure will help tweak my critical listening and evaluation of tubes rolled in.
> 
> Here are questions I would like to hear people's response to:
> 
> ...


----------



## sfo1972

guidostrunk said:


> Regarding #1 , I would say the hardest part is finding an all around tube. For me , even after owning the CCa's, the HG's are so far , an all around tube. Yes , the CCa's , did things better on a lot of songs, but also made me skip songs because of it's nature. With the HG's , I hit play and whatever plays, stays. I never feel the need to skip music.
> I also believe that synergy , plays a roll with gear. The right tube , with the right amp , with the right DAC, with the right phones , are all factors , in finding the "end game" rig. One of the things I've learned here, is ALWAYS trust your ears , first and foremost. Reviews , help, but at the end of the day , it's really preference , and synergy, upon hearing it imo.
> 
> 
> ...


 

 +1 on the HGs...Awesome!


----------



## billerb1

guidostrunk said:


> I also believe that synergy , plays a roll with gear. The right tube , with the right amp , with the right DAC, with the right phones , are all factors , in finding the "end game" rig. One of the things I've learned here, is ALWAYS trust your ears , first and foremost. Reviews , help, but at the end of the day , it's really preference , and synergy, upon hearing it imo.


 
  
 Well said.  And always the ultimate bottom line.
  
 That being said, you guys/gals are all idiots if you don't think the Amperex Pinched Waists are the best tubes ever created !!!   (I joke. I joke !!!)


----------



## Guidostrunk

Hahahahahahahaha




billerb1 said:


> Well said.  And always the ultimate bottom line.
> 
> That being said, you guys/gals are all idiots if you don't think the Amperex Pinched Waists are the best tubes ever created !!!   (I joke. I joke !!!)


----------



## billerb1

guidostrunk said:


> Hahahahahahahaha


 
  
 Cheers, Sam !!!


----------



## rb2013

guidostrunk said:


> Regarding #1 , I would say the hardest part is finding an all around tube. For me , even after owning the CCa's, the HG's are so far , an all around tube. Yes , the CCa's , did things better on a lot of songs, but also made me skip songs because of it's nature. With the HG's , I hit play and whatever plays, stays. I never feel the need to skip music.
> I also believe that synergy , plays a roll with gear. The right tube , with the right amp , with the right DAC, with the right phones , are all factors , in finding the "end game" rig. One of the things I've learned here, is ALWAYS trust your ears , first and foremost. Reviews , help, but at the end of the day , it's really preference , and synergy, upon hearing it imo.


 

 Nailed it! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	










 
  
 PS I would add the PW's did things better then all the other tubes in certain ways and should be evaluated by any serious tube listener.


----------



## rb2013

sfo1972 said:


> All righty then...once again rb2013, many thanks for this great and detailed review. I am glad you broke this off the main Lyr tube rollers thread so we can come here for a discussion on the best of the best tubes. The analysis was excellent and insightful and sure will help tweak my critical listening and evaluation of tubes rolled in.
> 
> Here are questions I would like to hear people's response to:
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks for the kind words!  My 2cents:
 1)This has not been the case for me - as the HG's ('75 Reflektor Silver Single Wire Getter Post) won on every song.  I'll post up the top three tubes by song.  But others may, of course, feel differently.
  
 2) Yes I think you are right here, anyone of these tubes would be a game changer over stock and could be a game ender. 
 Really important - First, I don't think the point score effectively captures the 'personality' of each tube.  And it's the personality trait of great transient capabilities coupled with tube liquidity and warmth that had the HG's as stand outs for me.  Second, I have realized that audio quality improvements and musical enjoyment are not a linear function.  What I mean is that a 1% or 2% improvement does not necessarily mean a 1% or 2% increase in musical enjoyment.  As your system gets better and more refined  - small differences are really noticeable and bring great satisfaction.  The old saying the difference between a gold medal and no metal can be milliseconds.  As I've worked to improve my systems over the decades I notice that once I achieved a really good sound - I would enjoy it for many months - but a kind of complacency would set in.  I would find myself listening less and less.  I knew it was time to improve it - to bring back the excitement of revisiting my old cd tracks.  And I would improve one of more pieces of gear - then if successful - it was like hearing these old tracks for the first time.  And the process was repeated a dozen times over 20+ years.  I still feel finding the HG tubes was one of the biggest leaps and most universal across all aspects of the sound quality- for a component replacement.  Would I have wanted to start where I'm at now?  I don't think so.  So my advice is be patient - do it incrementally and enjoy the ride.
  
 3)I have been through the Cyro route and I don't believe it makes a big enough difference to warrant the expense.  I also had a bad experience of cryoing a nice vintage 50's pair of 5u4g's only to them fail right after - both.  Was that due to the Cyro process? I can't say for sure  - but it does stress the tubes.
  
 4)I believe the legend of these tubes has built over many years of folks enjoying them - tube rollers like many of us.  There some great tubes in each class from the 6dj8 to the CCa's, I don't think  it was just the military grading.  I have heard some '70s Siemens silver shield CCa's I did not care for.  And that is the reason some became legends - see the HK tube club 6dj8 blind tube shootout.
  
 5)I bought a lot of new production from: CryoSet (10 yrs), Tube Depot(10yrs)  and The Tube Store (USA), and vinatge: Tube World (20yrs), Brent Jesse (5yrs), Upscale (over 10yrs).  All have treated me fairly.  I have also bought on Audiogon (20yrs,  200+ transactions), Headfi Classifieds and Ebay - Audiogon and Headfi are more reliable.  Ebay is a scary place.
  
 Good luck!


----------



## billerb1

rb2013 said:


> 2) Yes I think you are right here, anyone of these tubes would be a game changer over stock and could be a game ender.
> Really important - First, I don't think the point score effectively captures the 'personality' of each tube.  And it's that personality trait of the HG's that stood out among the rest for me.  Second, I have realized that audio quality improvements and musical enjoyment are not a linear function.  What I mean is that a 1% or 2% improvement does not necessarily mean a 1% or 2% increase in musical enjoyment.  As your system getters better and more refined  - small differences are really noticeable and bring great satisfaction.  The old saying the difference between a gold medal and no metal can be milliseconds.  As I've worked to improve my systems over the decades I notice that once I achieved a really good sound - I would enjoy it for many months - but a kind of complacency would set in.  I would find myself listening less and less.  I knew it was time to improve it - to bring back the excitement of revisiting my old cd tracks.  And I would improve one of more pieces of gear - then if successful - it was like hearing these old track for the first time.  And the process was repeated a dozen times over 20+ years.  I still feel finding the HG tubes was one of the biggest leaps and most universal across all aspect of the sound quality for a component replacement.  Would I have wanted to start where I'm at now?  I don't think so.  So my advice is be patient - do it incrementally and enjoy the ride.


 
  
 Very well put, Bob...and great advice.


----------



## Ableza

Interestingly, in my Lyr I found I preferred Genelac Gold Lions (new with 200 hours) to my Amperex PQ White Labels from 1964.  To each his own!


----------



## CoiL

rb2013 , this is littlebit offtopic maybe but can You help me to identify those 5x Siemens E88CC grey shields:
 
  
 They have printed codes between pins on the bottom + etched codes (1 or 2 tubes may have printed codes, not sure) on usual location on the side of glass, grey plates, o-ring getter. Codes are following: GØ 1≠ 6A / GØ 1≠ 5L / EØ 1≠ 6A, No stamped metal plates inside tube like later A-frames. 
  
 Anyway, on my road and experiance with modified Aune T1 I have found those sounding best out of my ~80 tubes. They have huge holographic soundstage with great separation and transparency. Accurate imaging and very balanced/neutral signature while still having tinybit warmth and great dynamics.


----------



## rb2013

coil said:


> rb2013 , this is littlebit offtopic maybe but can You help me to identify those 5x Siemens E88CC grey shields:
> 
> 
> They have printed codes between pins on the bottom + etched codes (1 or 2 tubes may have printed codes, not sure) on usual location on the side of glass, grey plates, o-ring getter. Codes are following: GØ 1≠ 6A / GØ 1≠ 5L / EØ 1≠ 6A, No stamped metal plates inside tube like later A-frames.
> ...


 
 They look to be '66 and '65 Siemens gray shields - the later gray shields have the stamp on the inside plate - the '70s have silver shields.
 That little equal sign with the hatch is a very common marking on the real Siemens.
 They are very nice tubes!


----------



## CoiL

Yeah, I also thought that with GØ code, they are ´66 & ´65 but what about EØ ? Can it be actually relabeled E188CC? And actually that GØ 1≠ 5L is also littlebit confusing to decode for some ppl I`ve asked.
 Thanks for Your answer!
  
 Btw, I got them all for only 32€ 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Some of them had only very slight using marks on pins. Sometimes it is good idea to take a unplanned step into antique-shop


----------



## rb2013

coil said:


> Yeah, I also thought that with GØ code, they are ´66 & ´65 but what about EØ ? Can it be actually relabeled E188CC? And actually that GØ 1≠ 5L is also littlebit confusing to decode for some ppl I`ve asked.
> Thanks for Your answer!
> 
> Btw, I got them all for only 32€
> ...


 

 Well that is an unusal production code - all mine have been A's.  But I'm sure they have many production runs.  They would be marked E188CC if they were, those commanded a premium.
  
 PS post it up on the Lyr Tube Rolling thread - there are some geniuses there when it comes to obscure European production codes.
  
 Cheers!


----------



## rb2013

ableza said:


> Interestingly, in my Lyr I found I preferred Genelac Gold Lions (new with 200 hours) to my Amperex PQ White Labels from 1964.  To each his own!


 

 Wanna sell those '64 PQ's?  PM me


----------



## Willy 2 Streams

The cost of good vintage 6DJ8's and their variants have just gone stratospheric....I remember when they were $5.00 a pop! While this was an awesome amount of work, do you think you could do a similar mini review on finding some affordable _current_ production 6922's that don't sound _too _skanky? Thanks again!!


----------



## rb2013

willy 2 streams said:


> The cost of good vintage 6DJ8's and their variants have just gone stratospheric....I remember when they were $5.00 a pop! While this was an awesome amount of work, do you think you could do a similar mini review on finding some affordable _current_ production 6922's that don't sound _too _skanky? Thanks again!!


 

 Great thought!  I have toyed with the idea of a under $100/pr shootout.  I might do that - there are some great tubes in the $50-$90 range.
  
 When I started rolling the 6922 20yrs ago I could by Siemens CCa Gray Shields for under $200/pr - from Dealers!  Well as the saying goes they're not make anymore '50's, '60s. and '70s tubes.  So the price will likely rise in the future. 
  
 Especially with really totl stuff coming that use them - see the new HiFiMan EF1000.


----------



## Tuco1965

What a great piece of work!  Well done!


----------



## Krutsch

Bravo, @rb2013 ... I have been collecting and listening to a wide variety of 6922 variants, but it's obvious you've already forgotten more about these tubes than I will ever know.
  
 Great Work!


----------



## rb2013

tuco1965 said:


> What a great piece of work!  Well done!


 
 Thanks!
  


krutsch said:


> Bravo, @rb2013 ... I have been collecting and listening to a wide variety of 6922 variants, but it's obvious you've already forgotten more about these tubes than I will ever know.
> 
> Great Work!


 
 A labor of love - my favorite tube.  Thanks!


----------



## Ableza

rb2013 said:


> Wanna sell those '64 PQ's?  PM me


 
 Sorry no, they stay in my arsenal.  Or rather they went back into my Kora Hermes II.


----------



## rb2013

ableza said:


> Sorry no, they stay in my arsenal.  Or rather they went back into my Kora Hermes II.


 

 Good call!  I bet they sound great in the Kora!


----------



## bonesnv

Great thread, one to add and I am sure it is in one of the 6 pages here is the Ediswan CV2492, I found I enjoyed this tube more often than not over the CCa's, Amperex's/Valvo or Mullards.  I typically enjoy the 7308 variants than 6922's overall in my Decware though, but it could just be the amp, as it is very transparent to the tubes being used.  
  
 Setup right now is the Ediswan with the TeleFunken EL84's and a GZ37/U54 fat bottle.  I find this to produce the cleanest, detailed sounds with a very airy top end, excellent bass extension with the mid range LCD's love.


----------



## Ableza

rb2013 said:


> Good call!  I bet they sound great in the Kora!


 
 It's my standard in my 2-channel system.  I've had it for years and have yet to hear anything that I like more.


----------



## rb2013

bonesnv said:


> Great thread, one to add and I am sure it is in one of the 6 pages here is the Ediswan CV2492, I found I enjoyed this tube more often than not over the CCa's, Amperex's/Valvo or Mullards.  I typically enjoy the 7308 variants than 6922's overall in my Decware though, but it could just be the amp, as it is very transparent to the tubes being used.
> 
> Setup right now is the Ediswan with the TeleFunken EL84's and a GZ37/U54 fat bottle.  I find this to produce the cleanest, detailed sounds with a very airy top end, excellent bass extension with the mid range LCD's love.


 

 I had a pair of what I thought were Mullard CV2492's they finished last place.  Turned out they were fakes - a dealer who had read the review spotted them.  What year are your Ediswan V2492's? Me and a few of the folks from the Lyr tube rolling thread are hoping someone who has a deep experience and knowledge of the various UK vintage 6922 varients would start a thread.  I hear the CV2493's are very good.


----------



## bonesnv

rb2013 said:


> I had a pair of what I thought were Mullard CV2492's they finished last place.  Turned out they were fakes - a dealer who had read the review spotted them.  What year are your Ediswan V2492's? Me and a few of the folks from the Lyr tube rolling thread are hoping someone who has a deep experience and knowledge of the various UK vintage 6922 varients would start a thread.  I hear the CV2493's are very good.


 
  
 Finding information about dates is a pain.  I did find a page specifically about Brimar valves (which were Ediswan, Mazda, Thorn, AEI and one or two others I believe), but it didn't seem to cover the military codes, only the standards for ECC88/E88CC.  
  
 Based on the code on mine, it was made in the Rochester plant outside of Kent, England.  However, don't know the date code designation and research hasn't found much.  The Ediswan doesn't sound anything like my Mullard branded that say Made in Britain with the Mullard shield on it.  There are however Mullards which are CV designated that had the same 2493 designation but were made in a different plant.
  
 If I had to choose a secondary for my favorite, I would say my Amperex 7308 (Made in US), or my Valvo 6922 (looks similar to my Amperex 6922).  I personally don't care much for the CCa in the Decware, but it could be entirely different in another amp so obviously won't get rid of it.  Same for the Telefunken CCa, which I think the 6922 sounds better than overall.
  
 EDIT:  Helpful little site: http://www.ebay.com/gds/Decipher-Codes-on-Tubes-Valves-Mullard-Brimar-Military-/10000000008041563/g.html
 EDIT:  Helpful little site 2: http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/g8hqp/audio/brimarcodes.html (Better of the two - Brimar Specific)


----------



## reddog

bonesnv said:


> Finding information about dates is a pain.  I did find a page specifically about Brimar valves (which were Ediswan, Mazda, Thorn, AEI and one or two others I believe), but it didn't seem to cover the military codes, only the standards for ECC88/E88CC.
> 
> Based on the code on mine, it was made in the Rochester plant outside of Kent, England.  However, don't know the date code designation and research hasn't found much.  The Ediswan doesn't sound anything like my Mullard branded that say Made in Britain with the Mullard shield on it.  There are however Mullards which are CV designated that had the same 2493 designation but were made in a different plant.
> 
> If I had to choose a secondary for my favorite, I would say my Amperex 7308 (Made in US), or my Valvo 6922 (looks similar to my Amperex 6922).  I personally don't care much for the CCa in the Decware, but it could be entirely different in another amp so obviously won't get rid of it.  Same for the Telefunken CCa, which I think the 6922 sounds better than overall.



Hmm thanks for the information. It is appreciated.


----------



## Exacoustatowner

rb2013 said:


> Great thought!  I have toyed with the idea of a under $100/pr shootout.  I might do that - there are some great tubes in the $50-$90 range.
> 
> When I started rolling the 6922 20yrs ago I could by Siemens CCa Gray Shields for under $200/pr - from Dealers!  Well as the saying goes they're not make anymore '50's, '60s. and '70s tubes.  So the price will likely rise in the future.
> 
> Especially with really totl stuff coming that use them - see the new HiFiMan EF1000.



Yes please do!!


----------



## earfonia

Amazing review! Definitely must read!
Thanks a lot for your effort!


----------



## nevin

Whola!!!! Very nice article. Thanks @rb2013 for writing this.


----------



## buson160man

Wow your review was pretty extensive. I appreciate these kind of reviews because obviously there was a lot of thinking and work that went into it.


----------



## Audiofanboy

Great review rb2013! It's really interesting to see the HG 6N23P come out of on top of the shootout!
  
 Just one question about your PW 6922. Some people say every different revisions of PW sound quite different. Like the early Eindhoven-made 7L0 and 7L1 production (factory code "6") would be different from the late 50's Heerlen 7L2 and 7L3 with the common "delta" code, and the more elusive Hamburg Valvo tubes would also be different...
 For example, I have 7L3 Heerlen PW from 1958 (and I agree with what everyone says about the PW traits). Any chance you could share the date and factory codes on yours for reference? Thanks!


----------



## teb1013

Thanks for the excellent review! Your attention to detail is admirable. I have been satisfied with the Green letter Amperex 7308 from 1968, but, following your article I may have to try those Reflektors! Great stuff.


----------



## rb2013

bonesnv said:


> Finding information about dates is a pain.  I did find a page specifically about Brimar valves (which were Ediswan, Mazda, Thorn, AEI and one or two others I believe), but it didn't seem to cover the military codes, only the standards for ECC88/E88CC.
> 
> Based on the code on mine, it was made in the Rochester plant outside of Kent, England.  However, don't know the date code designation and research hasn't found much.  The Ediswan doesn't sound anything like my Mullard branded that say Made in Britain with the Mullard shield on it.  There are however Mullards which are CV designated that had the same 2493 designation but were made in a different plant.
> 
> ...


 
 Great stuff - we have someone from the Lyr Tube Rolling thread working on a master list of 6922 type tube codes, factories and identification clues - a monster job - but well needed.  Just within the UK family you have Mullard, GEC, Ediswan, of course these have been rebranded from other manufactures and vice-a-versa.  With in the UK designations you have CV2492, CV2493, CV4108, CV5358, etc...
  


exacoustatowner said:


> Yes please do!!


 
 So many projects - so little time.  Next up a Lyr Modding thread and a thread dedicated to the amazing Melodious MX-U8...
  


earfonia said:


> Amazing review! Definitely must read!
> Thanks a lot for your effort!


 
 Thanks!
  


nevin said:


> Whola!!!! Very nice article. Thanks @rb2013 for writing this.


 
 Thanks!
  


buson160man said:


> Wow your review was pretty extensive. I appreciate these kind of reviews because obviously there was a lot of thinking and work that went into it.


 
 I took six months to assemble the tubes and design the review methods.  Thanks!
  


audiofanboy said:


> Great review rb2013! It's really interesting to see the HG 6N23P come out of on top of the shootout!
> 
> Just one question about your PW 6922. Some people say every different revisions of PW sound quite different. Like the early Eindhoven-made 7L0 and 7L1 production (factory code "6") would be different from the late 50's Heerlen 7L2 and 7L3 with the common "delta" code, and the more elusive Hamburg Valvo tubes would also be different...
> For example, I have 7L3 Heerlen PW from 1958 (and I agree with what everyone says about the PW traits). Any chance you could share the date and factory codes on yours for reference? Thanks!


 
 Yes there are many variation of the Pinched Waist - including the highly prized US Amperex 6922 D Getter PW.  I did another smaller review with one of those. There are also the Holland 6DJ8 Pinched Waist - which I think are not as good as the US 6922 PW.  Someone on the Lyr thread found a Valvo CCa PW - very rare.  All these PW's are very expensive and rare - I was fortunate to have a loan from a friend of the pair in the review.  Of all the PW's I have heard they do share a common 'family' sound.  I think the review let's you know where I stand with them. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 http://www.head-fi.org/t/673709/schiit-lyr-tube-rollers/2115 post #2129 
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/673709/schiit-lyr-tube-rollers/2220 post #2229
  


teb1013 said:


> Thanks for the excellent review! Your attention to detail is admirable. I have been satisfied with the Green letter Amperex 7308 from 1968, but, following your article I may have to try those Reflektors! Great stuff.


 
 Those '68 Green print Amperex 7308's are very good - I will list the review pair for sale today in the classifieds.


----------



## Exacoustatowner

Rb! I already thanked you a couple of times in the Lyr thread- let me thank you again here- I dub thee "Tube-God!." 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






 Eric


----------



## rb2013

exacoustatowner said:


> Rb! I already thanked you a couple of times in the Lyr thread- let me thank you again here- I dub thee "Tube-God!."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Cheers!


----------



## 3 toes of fury

wooo hooo buddy!
  
 thank you thank you thank you @rb2013 for such an AMAZING analysis.  Its threads like this which caused be to change from "constant site reader" to "active site member".    Ive recently transitioned from a headphone lover to a headphone/dac/amp lover and tube roller.   (I blame Jason and Mike @ Schiit for making such amazing gear). 
  
 Question to fellow Lyr fans...and apologies if this is well-worn territory in other threads....what is your suggestion for best-bang-for-your-buck tubes for a budget conscious newbie who's looking to do some fun rolling with lyr,  available from US distributors (preferrably),  for under $150?    Please let me know what distributors you dig?    Also...if this request is a bit too specific and i really need to look globally for best tube values,  do you have preferred vendors (ie: ebay sellers?).
  
 Similar question to @rb2013:   for some of your tubes you list 'Best Buy' prices...do you have a specific distributor associated with them?
 Im thinking based on all your research that i should start with your highest rated tubes within my price range but need to find where they are.
  
 Thanks to all for such a wonderful headphone,  amp, and dac community.    This place rocks!
  
 Peace .n. "You can dance if you want too...you can leave your friends behind"  -Men w/out Hats
  
 3ToF


----------



## Oskari

bonesnv said:


> military codes


 
  
 UK CV codes: http://www.tubecollector.org/cv-valves.htm


----------



## rb2013

3 toes of fury said:


> wooo hooo buddy!
> 
> thank you thank you thank you @rb2013 for such an AMAZING analysis.  Its threads like this which caused be to change from "constant site reader" to "active site member".    Ive recently transitioned from a headphone lover to a headphone/dac/amp lover and tube roller.   (I blame Jason and Mike @ Schiit for making such amazing gear).
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks for the kind words.   Well I think FleaBay is your best bet for the best deals - not without many pitfalls.  But really the Headfi classifieds are a great place to watch.
  
 You can post up your finds from Ebay on the Lyr Tube Rolling Thread or here - many knowledgeable folks to help give you some guidance.
  
 As for the Ruskies -don't even get me started.  Long ago, being a dedicated tubey, I decided to buy a decent (not totl) tester.  That was money well spent.
 Anyway, approximately 30-40% of the tubes I have gotten from the Russian and Ukrainian Ebay dealers have been fails - and often they send you different tubes then pictured.  Ugg!  I do occasionally get a few extra tubes that I match up into pairs that I offer to the community.  I did this mostly thin my growing herd of the lessor 6n23ps I had to buy to get the very best.  And to see if others were getting the same amazing SQ that I was getting.  When I first started posting about them a few years ago, the skepticism was tremendous.  Mainly because the 6n23p's that folks had tried were the middling '80s and 90's - and really no one had delved that deeply into the various years and constructions - I had really just accidentally stumbled into this myself.  After buying a bunch of these - I did first notice the shield differences - silver and gray - and being well versed in the Siemens CCa's knew that made a difference.  Then I thought - what about finding earlier ones - usually earlier are better (not always).  That began a year long very deep dive into collecting, sorting, grading, and ranking these.
  
 Well back to your question - I would use the Headfi threads as a great resource in your quest for tube nirvana!
  
 PS here are some dealers I have dealt with successfully:
 Tube World https://www.tubeworld.com/index_high.htm
 Upscale Audio http://www.upscaleaudio.com
 TubeMonger http://www.tubemonger.com
 Tube Depot https://www.tubedepot.com
 The Tube Store (USA) http://www.thetubestore.com
 Brent Jesse http://www.audiotubes.com
  
  
 Good luck!~


----------



## Oskari

Computer Audio? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Why?


----------



## rb2013

oskari said:


> UK CV codes: http://www.tubecollector.org/cv-valves.htm


 

 Good stuff on the UK tube markings - Thanks!


----------



## 3 toes of fury

@rb2013:    huge thanks for your great reply to my questions.   i absolutely appreciate the time you took to help address my concerns about global tube orders (are they really matched,  will they really meet stated quality vals, etc).   thanks too for the awesome list o suppliers.   i was pleased to see brent jesse listed as my first set of non-stock tubes came from there (amprex 6dj8 'bugle boy' which i found to be a wonderful step up from stock).    The tip about head-fi classifieds is awesome!  i think i'll be spending some time (and money) around there.
  
 Im re-reading your tube analysis article for the 2nd time today...its just an absolutely exceptional comparison review.   Thank you soooooooooooooo much for taking the time to detail and share your tube rolling adventures with us all.  
  
*Peace &  "Music is a moral law.  It gives soul to the universe,  wings to the mind,  flight to the imagination,  and charm and gaiety to life and to everything."  - Plato*
  
                3ToF...Rockin and (tube) Rollin!


----------



## rb2013

3 toes of fury said:


> @rb2013:    huge thanks for your great reply to my questions.   i absolutely appreciate the time you took to help address my concerns about global tube orders (are they really matched,  will they really meet stated quality vals, etc).   thanks too for the awesome list o suppliers.   i was pleased to see brent jesse listed as my first set of non-stock tubes came from there (amprex 6dj8 'bugle boy' which i found to be a wonderful step up from stock).    The tip about head-fi classifieds is awesome!  i think i'll be spending some time (and money) around there.
> 
> Im re-reading your tube analysis article for the 2nd time today...its just an absolutely exceptional comparison review.   Thank you soooooooooooooo much for taking the time to detail and share your tube rolling adventures with us all.
> 
> ...


 

 Glad you found it helpful - I have to say a great pair of tubes has given one of the best bangs for the buck in all my audio adventures.
  
 I love those quotes at the end of your posts!
 Cheers!


----------



## Expeditionary

Ah just when I thought I had accumulated a large quantity of tubes to roll in my lyr 2 as well I come across this thread...I thank you for your comprehensive review but my wallet curses your name  fantastic work on the reviews.


----------



## rb2013

expeditionary said:


> Ah just when I thought I had accumulated a large quantity of tubes to roll in my lyr 2 as well I come across this thread...I thank you for your comprehensive review but my wallet curses your name  fantastic work on the reviews.


 

 I feel your pain 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, but the sound is oh so good!


----------



## Exacoustatowner

rb2013 said:


> I feel your pain
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Sooo true!


----------



## sfo1972

rb2013 said:


> Thanks for the kind words!  My 2cents:
> 1)This has not been the case for me - as the HG's ('75 Reflektor Silver Single Wire Getter Post) won on every song.  I'll post up the top three tubes by song.  But others may, of course, feel differently.
> 
> 2) Yes I think you are right here, anyone of these tubes would be a game changer over stock and could be a game ender.
> ...


 

 Good stuff Bob! Thanks for the insights. Point 5 will help a lot of new comers. I wish if I had known that when I got started in looking for tubes.
  
 On point 2, I totally agree and can attest to how critical one gets when improving the system, now this can be good or bad as we enter the OCD realm. I just dropped a wad of cash on a new Bifrost Uber + USB Gen2 to complement the Lyr2 vintage tubes I recently acquired. After setting up a new listening room, my Oppo-HA1 which IMHO has an amazing DAC was moved to the office, and I was left with a basic entry DAC in the new listening room. It didn't take long to recognize that it is a weak link in the chain.
  
 Needless to say, I am on hour 40+ of Bifrost burnin with the Isotek CD. Should cross the 100+ hours mark by mid-next week making my chain more rugged to play kick-ass music 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Cheers


----------



## rb2013

sfo1972 said:


> Good stuff Bob! Thanks for the insights. Point 5 will help a lot of new comers. I wish if I had known that when I got started in looking for tubes.
> 
> On point 2, I totally agree and can attest to how critical one gets when improving the system, now this can be good or bad as we enter the OCD realm. I just dropped a wad of cash on a new Bifrost Uber + USB Gen2 to complement the Lyr2 vintage tubes I recently acquired. After setting up a new listening room, my Oppo-HA1 which IMHO has an amazing DAC was moved to the office, and I was left with a basic entry DAC in the new listening room. It didn't take long to recognize that it is a weak link in the chain.
> 
> ...


 

 And so it goes!  Time for a bank line of credit - LOL!  I'm hoping to raise enough to cover at least half the cost of the HiFiMan EF1000 amp - then plead with wifey to combine the rest as the next 5yrs worth of B-day presents.  I need to stock up on three pairs of HG's -actually just one more pair.  As a pr will come from the Lyr and a pr from one of my intregrated it will replace as it's also a 50watt Class A speaker amp.


----------



## Exacoustatowner

rb2013 said:


> And so it goes!  Time for a bank line of credit - LOL!  I'm hoping to raise enough to cover at least half the cost of the HiFiMan EF1000 amp - then plead with wifey to combine the rest as the next 5yrs worth of B-day presents.  I need to stock up on three pairs of HG's -actually just one more pair.  As a pr will come from the Lyr and a pr from one of my intregrated it will replace as it's also a 50watt Class A speaker amp. :tongue_smile: :tongue_smile:



Good luck Tube God!


----------



## Dubstep Girl

saw this just now, omg awesome!!!!! now we have a 6922 tube review thread here on head-fi, love it!!!!!


----------



## rb2013

dubstep girl said:


> saw this just now, omg awesome!!!!! now we have a 6922 tube review thread here on head-fi, love it!!!!!


 

 Hey What's up Dubstep Girl.  I loved your Rectifier thread!


----------



## Oskari

oskari said:


> Computer Audio?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 ... is this thread in said forum?


----------



## Exacoustatowner

oskari said:


> ... is this thread in said forum?



Um. What?


----------



## mikoss

We really do need a category for tubes...


----------



## Krutsch

mikoss said:


> We really do need a category for tubes...


 

 +1 ... agreed.


----------



## Stereocilia

What about the EAT ECC88 Cool Valve ??  Musicdirect.com is selling the EAT ECC88 for $225 per tube!


----------



## sfo1972

rb2013 said:


> sfo1972 said:
> 
> 
> > Good stuff Bob! Thanks for the insights. Point 5 will help a lot of new comers. I wish if I had known that when I got started in looking for tubes.
> ...


 
  
 Please stop giving me new ideas.....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 This will never end....Hahahaha
  
 That looks awesome bro! I assume the tubes are under the hood? And it needs 3 pairs?
  
 I have been lusting after the MHA100 to replace my existing Integ Amp for speakers. Its a sweet looking machine with both HA and Speaker output. Its got that mesmerizing blue decibel meter. Have you seen one of those?


----------



## rb2013

oskari said:


> ... is this thread in said forum?


 

 Sorry you are right - I had set-up a thread in the computer audio and just went there by accident.  Oh well!  The kind folks at Headfi didn't seem to mind.  In the future I guess it should have been in? Misc?? 
  
 But I love your attention to detail my friend!  Oskari is one of the most knowledgeable folks on the Lyr Tube Rolling thread for finding and deciphering obscure factory and date codes of vintage tubes.  I have learned much from him over the years.  (He is also quite attentive to spelling mistakes on tube manufacturers - Phillips is Philips! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)
  
 Thanks!


----------



## rb2013

stereocilia said:


> What about the EAT ECC88 Cool Valve ??  Musicdirect.com is selling the EAT ECC88 for $225 per tube!


 
 No  - that is the one new production I have not tried.  The price of admission is just to high!  For that kind of dough you can get some get 1st class vintage winners.
  


sfo1972 said:


> Please stop giving me new ideas.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Very nice Mac - what a beauty!   The thing I have found (I describe in the review under Tubes vs Solid State) is the hybrid design (tubes in the pre-amp, solid state in the amp section) is optimal.  Capitalizing on the best of each audio paths.  Especially if the solid state amp section of the hybrid is run in class A, at least most of the time (adaptive class A).


----------



## Oskari

rb2013 said:


> Sorry you are right - I had set-up a thread in the computer audio and just went there by accident.  Oh well!  The kind folks at Headfi didn't seem to mind.  In the future I guess it should have been in? Misc??


 
  
 Heck, I don't know. (I mostly stay in the amp forum.) This just seemed a very odd place for this thread.


----------



## Exacoustatowner

Hey Rb
Have you heard the new HiFIMan Amp? It's hybrid? So why 6 tubes? I'm going with Ragnarok as my ultimate amp. That said I've ideas on fi find a good tube pre-amp to make it a GIANT Lyr.


----------



## rb2013

exacoustatowner said:


> Hey Rb
> Have you heard the new HiFIMan Amp? It's hybrid? So why 6 tubes? I'm going with Ragnarok as my ultimate amp. That said I've ideas on fi find a good tube pre-amp to make it a GIANT Lyr.


 

 No I have not heard it yet - but my spider senses are telling me it will be some thing special.  HiFiMan are using it to show case those amazing HE1000's.  Rumor is you'll have to buy them together.
  
 My thinking - the reason for the 6 tubes is the design of the pre-amp section will be like the Conrad Johnson 16LS with each section of the six tubes run in parallel to form each channel of signal.   At the time this was a revolutionary and outstanding design. The CJ 16ls was a smaller version of the supreme Conrad Johnson ART using the same design but with a dual-chassis design and 10 6922's.
  


> Conrad-Johnson's "composite triode" philosophy boils down to an audio circuit with a single triode gain stage comprising a number of 6922 dual-triode tubes. The more tubes in parallel, the lower the output impedance. And yes, the use of a single stage means polarity is inverted at the preamp's output. The "composite triode" output stage is backed by zero loop negative feedback and no additional audio circuits, such as the often-implemented cathode follower. Either solid-state or tube, this functions as a buffer as well as lowering output impedance.


 
  
 I had the 16ls and the purity of tone was amazing.  Running 6 Siemens CCa's got to be expensive though.  This near sota pre alone sold for $4,500 at the end of the 1990's.  The ART $25,000.
 http://www.stereophile.com/tubepreamps/565/
  
 I'm just guessing at this and we will know more once the  EF1000 is released later this summer.
  
 I'm hoping to be 'chosen' for the in home review!


----------



## reddog

I hope your chosen to do a in house review too. Your knowledge of amps and tubes, will make a review of the EF1000 most valuable to me and others on head-fi.


----------



## rb2013

reddog said:


> I hope your chosen to do a in house review too. Your knowledge of amps and tubes, will make a review of the EF1000 most valuable to me and others on head-fi.


 

 Thanks!  That would be fun


----------



## hgpsemaj

Hello guys,
  
 Are 4 x '*Reflektor Holy Grail '75 6N23P SWGP Silver Shields' *suitable for 'Marantz 9' mono blocks? Please advise.
  
 Regards,


----------



## rb2013

hgpsemaj said:


> Hello guys,
> 
> Are 4 x '*Reflektor Holy Grail '75 6N23P SWGP Silver Shields' *suitable for 'Marantz 9' mono blocks? Please advise.
> 
> Regards,


 

 What tube type does the manf spec for it?


----------



## hgpsemaj

rb2013 said:


> What tube type does the manf spec for it?


 
   It is etched 6DJ8 / ECC88.


----------



## rb2013

hgpsemaj said:


> It is etched 6DJ8 / ECC88.


 

 You are good to go -as the 6n23p is a direct substitute.
  
 PS Hey friend I just realized it was you - from the Gustard thread!
  
 This may help in terms of 6DJ8/E88CC tube compatiblity even though you don't have a Lyr
http://www.head-fi.org/t/755300/schiit-lyr-lyr-2-tube-compatibility-list


----------



## SuperU

Fantastic review. And I'm glad it is being done outside of the Lyr tube rolling thread.
  
 Was going back and forth between the Project Ember and the Lyr for use with my Audeze LCD-X.
  
 Currently have the Asgard 2 and Uber Bifrost. 
  
 Anyone have any thoughts?


----------



## MWSVette

superu said:


> Fantastic review. And I'm glad it is being done outside of the Lyr tube rolling thread.
> 
> Was going back and forth between the Project Ember and the Lyr for use with my Audeze LCD-X.
> 
> ...


 

 I love my Lyr.  For the price I do not think it can be beat and if you want to get into tube rolling there is great support on the Lyr tube rolling thread.
  
 Good luck...


----------



## rb2013

superu said:


> Fantastic review. And I'm glad it is being done outside of the Lyr tube rolling thread.
> 
> Was going back and forth between the Project Ember and the Lyr for use with my Audeze LCD-X.
> 
> ...


 
 Well if you want a real tube pre section - there is a clear choice.  The PE is a opamp with only a tube buffer.  But it is cheaper.
  


mwsvette said:


> I love my Lyr.  For the price I do not think it can be beat and if you want to get into tube rolling there is great support on the Lyr tube rolling thread.
> 
> Good luck...


 
 +1


----------



## reddog

mwsvette said:


> I love my Lyr.  For the price I do not think it can be beat and if you want to get into tube rolling there is great support on the Lyr tube rolling thread.
> 
> Good luck...



I agree my lyr 2 is wonderful. Even though I have a Ragnarok, I still like to kick back with my Lyr2 (with Telefunken E88CC platinum tubes) and jam out to Dave Bruebeck and recently some Diamond Tooth Mary. That good old tube goodness never fails to put a smile on my mug.


----------



## Exacoustatowner

reddog said:


> I agree my lyr 2 is wonderful. Even though I have a Ragnarok, I still like to kick back with my Lyr2 (with Telefunken E88CC platinum tubes) and jam out to Dave Bruebeck and recently some Diamond Tooth Mary. That good old tube goodness never fails to put a smile on my mug.



I was under the impression that the Ragnarok (on order) will make my beloved Lyr superfluous. Hmmmmnnnn....


----------



## reddog

exacoustatowner said:


> I was under the impression that the Ragnarok (on order) will make my beloved Lyr superfluous. Hmmmmnnnn....



The Ragnarok is just fantastic, in balanced mode its my best amp. But late at night, I use my lyr2, on a night stand, next to my bed, and it helps shorten my bouts of pain induced insomnia.


----------



## Exacoustatowner

reddog said:


> The Ragnarok is just fantastic, in balanced mode its my best amp. But late at night, I use my lyr2, on a night stand, next to my bed, and it helps shorten my bouts of pain induced insomnia.



Now that's a good idea!


----------



## bonesnv

So managed to find a Reflektor 6N23P from a seller in the US, should have it next week.  Had a silver logo, single wire up to the O-getter instead of the A-frame dimple disc, and looks similar to the photos.  Never know with Russian tubes though, but for the cost figured what the hell may as well see if it is legit or not, no major loss if not.


----------



## rb2013

bonesnv said:


> So managed to find a Reflektor 6N23P from a seller in the US, should have it next week.  Had a silver logo, single wire up to the O-getter instead of the A-frame dimple disc, and looks similar to the photos.  Never know with Russian tubes though, but for the cost figured what the hell may as well see if it is legit or not, no major loss if not.


 

 You bought the 6n23p-ev (-eb) made way after the vintage '70s Reflektors and are very common.  Only the ones with the inverted saucer getter disc are the best sounding.
  
 Those to me were really mediocre.  But YMMV
  
 This is what you want to look for


----------



## bonesnv

rb2013 said:


> You bought the 6n23p-ev (-eb) made way after the vintage '70s Reflektors and are very common.  Only the ones with the inverted saucer getter disc are the best sounding.
> 
> Those to me were really mediocre.  But YMMV
> 
> This is what you want to look for


 
  
 Ah, well like I said no loss on the cost.  Based on that photo (very helpful, thank you), I did find the right one just got confused which was the correct one.  Should be arriving as well but not for 2 weeks.  Then again, that is if they are legit, fun of tubes sometimes from the Kremlin. 
  
 So, guess I will have some things to futz around with.  Will have the 3 versions realistically to test.
  
 Once again, awesome thread.


----------



## rb2013

bonesnv said:


> Ah, well like I said no loss on the cost.  Based on that photo (very helpful, thank you), I did find the right one just got confused which was the correct one.  Should be arriving as well but not for 2 weeks.  Then again, that is if they are legit, fun of tubes sometimes from the Kremlin.
> 
> So, guess I will have some things to futz around with.  Will have the 3 versions realistically to test.
> 
> Once again, awesome thread.


 

 Happy Rolling!


----------



## openuser

Thank you for this post!!


----------



## bonesnv

Well, thanks for the thread?  Damn...?


----------



## Exacoustatowner

Anyone listened to Vokshod tubes from the 1980's or early 90's?


----------



## Tuco1965

I have a pair of 1980s 6n23p  Voskhod rockets currently in my Lyr and love them.  I wish I had purchased more than 2 at the time.


----------



## Exacoustatowner

tuco1965 said:


> I have a pair of 1980s 6n23p  Voskhod rockets currently in my Lyr and love them.  I wish I had purchased more than 2 at the time.



Thanks Tuco


----------



## Guidostrunk

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)


----------



## Exacoustatowner

guidostrunk said:


> ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)


 
 I can't wait to hear the "HG's" from SIR Guidostrunk! I'll be curious to compare them with the Siemens Cca Grey shields I bought from Rob!
 Heavenly sounds are coming..


----------



## openuser

Got myself a pair of 65 usn-cep 7308! On its way here! So excited to try them on my lyr2. Will update with my opinion!


----------



## Exacoustatowner

openuser said:


> Got myself a pair of 65 usn-cep 7308! On its way here! So excited to try them on my lyr2. Will update with my opinion!



US Navy? Not familiar but I hope they are awesome!!


----------



## mikoss

openuser said:


> Got myself a pair of 65 usn-cep 7308! On its way here! So excited to try them on my lyr2. Will update with my opinion!



Beautiful tubes, arguably the best of the American made 6922's. Love their atmosphere... Enjoy!


----------



## MWSVette

exacoustatowner said:


> I can't wait to hear the "HG's" from SIR Guidostrunk! I'll be curious to compare them with the Siemens Cca Grey shields I bought from Rob!
> Heavenly sounds are coming..


 

 You are going to love them.  My set have become my favorite tube by far...
  
 I am curious to see which set you prefer CCa or 75HG's.
  
 Happy Rolling
  
 Cheers


----------



## Exacoustatowner

mwsvette said:


> You are going to love them.  My set have become my favorite tube by far...
> 
> I am curious to see which set you prefer CCa or 75HG's.
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks! I am wishing I could time travel forward to when they arrive!


----------



## MWSVette

exacoustatowner said:


> I can't wait to hear the "HG's" from SIR Guidostrunk! I'll be curious to compare them with the Siemens Cca Grey shields I bought from Rob!
> Heavenly sounds are coming..


 

 Which set of CCa's from the shoot-out did you get the 62/63's or the 65's?


----------



## Exacoustatowner

mwsvette said:


> Which set of CCa's from the shoot-out did you get the 62/63's or the 65's?


 
 Hi MWSVette
  I got the 62/63's- the others were N/A. They sound quite good-better now that I've been running them 100+ hours. Leaps and bounds better than the stock GE's.


----------



## MWSVette

exacoustatowner said:


> Hi MWSVette
> I got the 62/63's- the others were N/A. They sound quite good-better now that I've been running them 100+ hours. Leaps and bounds better than the stock GE's.


 

 I knew one of the sets was a loaner for the shoot-out, forgot which set.
  
 I imagine there is a big improvement in SQ.  You've gone from valley to mountain top in one jump.  Congrats...


----------



## Exacoustatowner

mwsvette said:


> I knew one of the sets was a loaner for the shoot-out, forgot which set.
> 
> I imagine there is a big improvement in SQ.  You've gone from valley to mountain top in one jump.  Congrats...


 
 Thanks! The Reflektor Silver Shield SWPG 74's are very good as well! As you know, I'm an unintentional Tube fan-via Amazon's mistake.
 Sometimes mistakes have happy consequences! Luckily there were people like Rob around when I did leap into the Tubular Zone. 
 I still have hopes some new production tube makers will "get it right."


----------



## MWSVette

exacoustatowner said:


> Thanks! The Reflektor Silver Shield SWPG 74's are very good as well! As you know, I'm an unintentional Tube fan-via Amazon's mistake.
> Sometimes mistakes have happy consequences! Luckily there were people like Rob around when I did leap into the Tubular Zone.
> I still have hopes some new production tube makers will "get it right."


 

 Yes I agree as I have the 74's as well and of course those led me to the HG's.  And yes Rob has helped me a too and at a time when I knew nothing tubes.  Not to say I know that much now, lol...
  
 Now of course I really want a nice set of CCa's.  Upgraditis is a dangerous disease.


----------



## CoiL

exacoustatowner said:


> I still have hopes some new production tube makers will "get it right."


 
 I`m still wondering if they could make CCa replicas if proper laboratory analysis would be made about material consistency etc. to one of the best CCa`s? Why... WHY NOT?


----------



## Exacoustatowner

coil said:


> I`m still wondering if they could make CCa replicas if proper laboratory analysis would be made about material consistency etc. to one of the best CCa`s? Why... WHY NOT?



You'd think! They need to hire CSI:LV! They'd have an answer in under an hour!


----------



## Justin_Time

rb2013,

The amount of effort that has gone into making this review possible is simply mind-boggling.

I would not be surprised if you emerged from this ordeal somewhat...diminished, at least temporarily.

I once attempted to compare a combination of about half a dozen pairs of headphones, a dozen amps and a dozen different cables. I took me neartly a year and I was never quite the same afterwards. But to do what you did in one session is beyond my comprehension.

Thank you for this Herculean effort.


----------



## BleaK

Thank you for this comprehensive review!
  
 I found a pair of the *Amperex USN-CEP 7308 White '65* at tubeworldexpress, however I wonder if they take time to burn in. Because even after 20 hours I still think the sound is closed in and the treble is harsh (harsher than stock Valhalla 2). The bass is great, but I think the stock tubes still sound much more open than the 7308. Which doesn't match the description I read various places of the Amperex 7308.


----------



## openuser

I bought a pair around the same timeframe. I dont remember NOS USN-CEPs available at that time. if they were used, then wouldnt they most likely be burned in already?


----------



## Stereocilia

http://www.upscaleaudio.com  (matsu****a-national-pcc88-7dj8) Matsu****a / National PCC88 / 7DJ8
  
Are PCC88 / 7DJ8 tube compatible with Schiit amps? I have the Valhalla 2 amp, if I roll the 6N1P dual triode input tube with (6922 / 6DJ8 / 7308 / PCC88) is the difference appreciable? I don't want to spend my hard earned cashed on an unnecessary and incompatible upgrade, the stock 6N1P tubes under my magnifier appear to have gold grids. 
  
It would be nice if team Schiit would shed some light on tube swapping, like a tube rolling chart something. I'm sure that everybody has noticed by now that vintage tubes are not cheap, it would be nice if Schiit would chime in on this because the cost of better tubes is eating into my buy more Schiit budget.
  
 I'm sorry I got lost in the mix, the tube info is here, maybe its the format or something, when things get wordy my mind wanders, I'm looking for something dumbed down like this link  https://www.tubedepot.com/tube-comparison-tool the tube comparison from Tube Depot only more specifically charted to Schiit amps. 
  
 Brent Jessee tubes http://www.audiotubes.com/6dj8.htm   6922 JJ Gold Pin, "New Stock original box. A very decent current production 6922 from the Slovak Republic, carefully tested and matched by us. These have gold pins and are among the best of the current production 6922 tubes. _*TOP SECRET: These are made in the same factory that makes the tubes for EAT, which are much more costly! *_Singles are $40 each, MATCHED PAIRS JUST $80.00 PER PAIR! These come the closest to the NOS European sound, and at a great price!"
  
 Furthermore, 6DJ8 Matsu****a Japan (Mullard) factory made, "1970s vintage New Old Stock white box. Nice Japan made 6DJ8 tubes from a factory that was set up by Mullard, and these tubes have similar sonics to Mullard. Most are made for Amperex, some for RCA or National. MATCHED PAIRS JUST $50.00 PER PAIR! _*Better than any Russian or Chinese junk, and at a great price!"*_
  
_"When it comes to warmth, no other tube can top this jewel from the British crown. Silky highs, a liquid midrange, and awesome deep bass give this tube its deserved reputation for warmth and full sonics." _*Mullard *
  
 Cca Philips Holland made for Valvo (ultra premium 6DJ8/6922) "The Cca is one of the "Holy Grail" tubes in the 6922/7308 family, and _*probably the best audiophile 6DJ8 type ever made, at any time.*_ They were originally made for the German Government for use in telecommunications where low noise and long life were critical."


----------



## CoiL

You can read "TOP SECRET... Better than any... Holy Grail... Probably the best ever made" etc. kind of sayings about many different tubes. This hyping of certain tubes may guide You with direction where to go and what kind of sounding NOS tubes to hunt but at the end it is very subjective and doesn`t include gear matching with particular tube sound and isn`t definite answer to what tube to get for "best sound". I know, been on that road with my Aune T1. My recommendation is to follow recommendations from many ppl about same tube and similar or same gear to Yours. I have some real gems in my collection which are also "secret" ...they sound basically same as my top choice and most expensive tubes but are from totally different family of tubes. While I`m not familiar with Schiit amp Your`e talking about, search for compatible/similar specification tubes and also tube family-changing adapters come handy, You may find some real gems with dirt cheap price. About PCC88/7DJ8 - they should be ok replacement to 6DJ8/6922, they just have higher heater voltage and in most cases they still work without problems because even within 6DJ8/6922 family heater voltage/mA tolerance/difference is quite big and doesn`t apply to stated standard values. There was one experienced radio-tube guy who made measurement tests about it, I think it was on UK radiomuseum forum but not sure, don`t remember anymore. Though, some of 7DJ8/PCC88 tubes might sound distorted because under-voltage heater plate but I`ve only run into 2 of them out of many so far (remembered wrong - it was about PCC189, all PCC88 I have work without problems). But the findings paid off BIG. Also found some tubes within PCC189/7ES8 family that sound close to best out of my Holland tubes (69` GAC coded Heerlen Holland Orange Globe logo single leg dimpled disc getter for example, quite hard to get these days and better than white/orange PQ logo 6DJ8, imo).
 PCC189/7ES8 and ECC189/6ES8 family are really worth to check out, more chances to discover real gems than within PCC88/7DJ8 family imo. Also, 6BQ7(A) family might get You into "wonderland", I have 2 green label GE 6BQ7A`s with glow wire under getter that sound also very close to my best Heerlen tubes. There are more examples... just do some research about what tube is possible to roll.
 I haven`t got much russian tubes and can`t talk much along about these but I think the best I have is Voskhod 6H1N-EB with double wire support "cup-disc" getter, exposed heaters, small rocket logo.
  
 IMO
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 Forgot to mention... also check out this page: http://www.tubedata.info


----------



## Guidostrunk

Don't believe all the tube hype my friend. I've rolled the "best" , and at the end of the day , my measly $125 1965 Amperex Holland Dumonts , won out.
Synergy is key imo.
There's some really great tubes that can be had in the 7308 and E188CC family, for much less than the "best". 
Comes down to preference , whether you like a warmer , or colder sound sig. 

Cheers 



stereocilia said:


> [COLOR=000000]http://www.upscaleaudio.com  (matsu****a-national-pcc88-7dj8)[/COLOR] Matsu****a / National PCC88 / 7DJ8
> 
> [COLOR=000000]Are PCC88 / 7DJ8 tube compatible with Schiit amps? I have the Valhalla 2 amp, if I roll the 6N1P dual triode input tube with (6922 / 6DJ8 / 7308 / PCC88) is the difference appreciable? I don't want to spend my hard earned cashed on an unnecessary and incompatible upgrade, the stock 6N1P tubes under my magnifier appear to have gold grids.[/COLOR]
> 
> ...


----------



## Exacoustatowner

guidostrunk said:


> Don't believe all the tube hype my friend. I've rolled the "best" , and at the end of the day , my measly $125 1965 Amperex Holland Dumonts , won out.
> Synergy is key imo.
> There's some really great tubes that can be had in the 7308 and E188CC family, for much less than the "best".
> Comes down to preference , whether you like a warmer , or colder sound sig.
> ...



Thanks Guidostrunk!
Good points for us "Padawan Learners."


----------



## Stereocilia

"Don't believe all the tube hype my friend. I've rolled the "best" , and at the end of the day , my measly $125 1965 Amperex Holland Dumonts , won out.
 Synergy is key imo."
  
 I couldn't if I tried (the hype) when the tubes listed score 117.8 to 117.5, OK sure buddy I'll buy into that..
  
 The fact that the 6N1P is currently in production. The fact that Schiit is using this tube, speaks to me.
  
 http://www.rutubes.com/product/6n1p-ev-e88cc-6n1p-eb-6922-tube/
  
 While it might not be the best sounding tube it has to be the best sounding tube for the price @$3.20 per tube with gold grids


----------



## mikoss

Wow, I'd sure love to be in love with the cheapest tubes myself. I think some tube gear comes with cheaper tubes because they're more accessible, and some companies charge outrageous amounts for tube "upgrades" that cost less elsewhere. I think Bob did a very good job with this review as well. Sometimes, to fully appreciate the top of the food chain, it takes some time sampling from the less expensive offerings, and seeing what works well for you and your gear. I think for the most part, the "holy grail" tubes have qualities that can be appreciated by the less expensive tubes, although they may be much tougher to hear/appreciate. Just my take.


----------



## Krutsch

mikoss said:


> Wow, I'd sure love to be in love with the cheapest tubes myself. I think some tube gear comes with cheaper tubes because they're more accessible, and some companies charge outrageous amounts for tube "upgrades" that cost less elsewhere. I think Bob did a very good job with this review as well. Sometimes, to fully appreciate the top of the food chain, it takes some time sampling from the less expensive offerings, and seeing what works well for you and your gear. I think for the most part, the "holy grail" tubes have qualities that can be appreciated by the less expensive tubes, although they may be much tougher to hear/appreciate. Just my take.


 

 ^^ This ^^ ... I have some cheap tubes (well, not $3.00 cheap, but less expensive) that sound nice. But my favorites are, unfortunately, not in the same price/availability category and the sound is on a different shelf. Took me some time to really appreciate the difference.


----------



## Guidostrunk

I don't want anyone to misunderstand, when I say "Don't believe all the hype". 
Yes, the CCa's, HG's, Holland PW's, Mallard Blackburns, Philips Miniwatts , Amperex 7308's , ALL have something phenomenal , to offer in astounding SQ.
After spending time with the above(thanks to my friend Larry for loaning me the PW's, Mullards,&Minis), I really had a hard time choosing one to be an "All Arounder". 

If you want crazy big soundstage/holography, you want the CCa's.
If you want a good balance of bass and detailed delicate treble, PW's deliver in spades.
If you want a midrange , to die for,
Hands down , the Miniwatts.
If you want a deep , smooth , laid back liquid sound, Mullard Blackburns. 

Now for ME , the above do what they do , but fall short imo of having something that can satisfy an all around experience. And at the end of the day, my Dumonts , and HG's , cover all genres better than the above , to my ears. 

My point is, you don't have to chase down crazy expensive tubes , because of one persons review , and internet hype , when great sound can be had for a fraction of the cost. Especially when mentioning the most pricey, PW's , and CCa's. 

Anything in the 7308/e188cc , family, if you're patient, can be had for under $150 , bucks. 
Are the CCa's , and PW's , worth the extra 200 to 500+? For me, no. Others MMV. It all boils down to preference imo. 
Please take this post , with a grain of salt. It's just how my ears hear it, and personal preference. 

Happy rolling friends!


----------



## Stereocilia

I rolled my HiFIMAN EF3 amp from the stock 6J1 tubes to cyro treated new old stock (new in box) RTC (Radiotechnique) 1980's vintage French made military issue EF95 6AK5 5654 tubes. That was a $1 tube to a $20 tube, It took ten seconds for me to appreciate the difference, that made me a believer, I'm making this quest a journey not a destination, I'm doing my homework taking my time, the 6922 family has a legendary reputation for sound and the price reflects that, thing is the prices at the summit are so high I have to look at the another strains of tubes like the 6SN7 
  
 What strain of dual triode vacuum tube tubes is widely considered the best of the best? Who doesn't want to roll the best strains?


----------



## Exacoustatowner

guidostrunk said:


> I don't want anyone to misunderstand, when I say "Don't believe all the hype".
> Yes, the CCa's, HG's, Holland PW's, Mallard Blackburns, Philips Miniwatts , Amperex 7308's , ALL have something phenomenal , to offer in astounding SQ.
> After spending time with the above(thanks to my friend Larry for loaning me the PW's, Mullards,&Minis), I really had a hard time choosing one to be an "All Arounder".
> 
> ...


 
 I can personally attest to the holography from the Siemens Cca. I have a pair of Amperex PW-I think they need burn in.
 I'm now chasing 6N1P's since I have the Lyr….Next month I'll look for Telefunkens...


----------



## Guidostrunk

Not sure about the EF3 , but alternatives for the lyr , for 6922 , there's CCa,E88cc,Ecc88,E188cc,E288cc,7308,6DJ8, Pcc88,Ecc189, pcc189 ,CV2492, CV2493, CV4108, I'm sure there's many more. Lol. In the locked lyr thread, there's some great info , regarding most of the above , mentioned. Especially some of the less common tube types. 
As far as "best" goes. Here's a great shootout , with some of the best tubes , in the 6922 family. http://hktubeaudio.homestead.com/files/6dj8.html



stereocilia said:


> I rolled my HiFIMAN EF3 amp from the stock 6J1 tubes to cyro treated new old stock (new in box) RTC (Radiotechnique) 1980's vintage French made military issue EF95 6AK5 5654 tubes. That was a $1 tube to a $20 tube, It took ten seconds for me to appreciate the difference, that made me a believer, I'm making this quest a journey not a destination, I'm doing my homework taking my time, the 6922 family has a legendary reputation for sound and the price reflects that, thing is the prices at the summit are so high I have to look at the another strains of tubes like the 6SN7
> 
> What strain of dual[COLOR=000000]triode[/COLOR][COLOR=000000]vacuum tube[/COLOR] tubes is widely considered the best of the best? Who doesn't want to roll the best strains?


----------



## Guidostrunk

Pretty breathtaking , to say the least. They're definitely the best at what they do. Lol


exacoustatowner said:


> I can personally attest to the holography from the Siemens Cca. I have a pair of Amperex PW-I think they need burn in.
> I'm now chasing 6N1P's since I have the Lyr….Next month I'll look for Telefunkens...


----------



## Exacoustatowner

guidostrunk said:


> Pretty breathtaking , to say the least. They're definitely the best at what they do. Lol



Yep!! Spooky! If I'd known I'd be drawn in so much I would have just damned my financial plans and bought a high end SS amp.


----------



## Krutsch

exacoustatowner said:


> *I can personally attest to the holography from the Siemens Cca.* I have a pair of Amperex PW-I think they need burn in.
> I'm now chasing 6N1P's since I have the Lyr….Next month I'll look for Telefunkens...


 
  
 Love my Siemens CCa tubes, but my Telefunken E288CC tubes (early, re-branded Siemens and I have another pair re-branded as Philips) have the same 3D sound, but with greater clarity, IMO.
 The Tele E188CC are killer, as well. Lots of great tubes out there; I need to add a pair of Philips Miniwatts to the collection


----------



## hgpsemaj

I pair 4 x Telefunken E288CC on my Marantz 9 mono block, the low frequency is too heavy. So I switched it to E188CC, it is more appropriate in all aspect. But stiil, CCa is my favourite for my mono block.


----------



## Krutsch

hgpsemaj said:


> I pair 4 x Telefunken E288CC on my Marantz 9 mono block, the low frequency is too heavy. So I switched it to E188CC, it is more appropriate in all aspect. But stiil, CCa is my favourite for my mono block.


 
  
 A fellow Telefunken fanboy


----------



## Exacoustatowner

krutsch said:


> Love my Siemens CCa tubes, but my Telefunken E288CC tubes (early, re-branded Siemens and I have another pair re-branded as Philips) have the same 3D sound, but with greater clarity, IMO.
> The Tele E188CC are killer, as well. Lots of great tubes out there; I need to add a pair of Philips Miniwatts to the collection



I've got a pair of Amperex 6922 POQ from the late 50's I an burning in.
Beer chug!


----------



## hgpsemaj

krutsch said:


> A fellow Telefunken fanboy


 
  
 I've been collecting Telefunken tubing for many years, from their 4v rectifier, EL34 to those small tubes, they are absolutely reliable, but they don't have much character like other brands. IMO, they are nothing good; and they are nothing bad.


----------



## Exacoustatowner

hgpsemaj said:


> I've been collecting Telefunken tubing for many years, from their 4v rectifier, EL34 to those small tubes, they are absolutely reliable, but they don't have much character like other brands. IMO, they are nothing good; and they are nothing bad.



That's interesting.


----------



## hgpsemaj

exacoustatowner said:


> That's interesting.


 
  
 I don't have many valve applicants, so most of my experience are from Marantz 9; Mcintosh MC275 MKI and a DIY Pre-amp.
  
 For example: When I pair Telefunken 12AX7 with Mc275, I could hear the vocal is tend to a bit "thin". But the Marconi and GEC could outperform Telefunken easily in this particular application.


----------



## Exacoustatowner

hgpsemaj said:


> I don't have many valve applicants, so most of my experience are from Marantz 9; Mcintosh MC275 MKI and a DIY Pre-amp.
> 
> For example: When I pair Telefunken 12AX7 with Mc275, I could hear the vocal is tend to a bit "thin". But the Marconi and GEC could outperform Telefunken easily in this particular application.



Are these NOS Telefunken or new? My only experience is with the Lyr tube preamp- the amp is SS. I wonder how different the 6 and 12 volt tubes are for audio?


----------



## hgpsemaj

exacoustatowner said:


> Are these NOS Telefunken or new? My only experience is with the Lyr tube preamp- the amp is SS. I wonder how different the 6 and 12 volt tubes are for audio?


 
 Most of my collection are NOS or almost new. I might be wrong, but I always suggest friends to collect tubings which were made before 70s, especially 12AU7 of Amprex, made before March 1957 is a must.


----------



## Exacoustatowner

hgpsemaj said:


> Most of my collection are NOS or almost new. I might be wrong, but I always suggest friends to collect tubings which were made before 70s, especially 12AU7 of Amprex, made before March 1957 is a must.



I don't know about 12AU7 but the Russians were making good 6922 in the 70's


----------



## CoiL

krutsch said:


> exacoustatowner said:
> 
> 
> > *I can personally attest to the holography from the Siemens Cca.* I have a pair of Amperex PW-I think they need burn in.
> ...


 
 I would add also Amperex orange globe 6GM8 - has also great holographic 3D soundstage  Only Amperex tube that I can call "holographic" out of my collection. 
  


stereocilia said:


> The fact that the 6N1P is currently in production. The fact that Schiit is using this tube, speaks to me.
> 
> http://www.rutubes.com/product/6n1p-ev-e88cc-6n1p-eb-6922-tube/
> 
> While it might not be the best sounding tube it has to be the best sounding tube for the price @$3.20 per tube with gold grids


 
 I think this linked 6N1P-EB is almost "same" as the one I was talking about earlier but mine is without gold grid(actually not sure about it 100%) and should be NOS from 70`s with smaller rocket logo (newer ones should have larger Voskhod factory rocket logo):
 Quote:


coil said:


> I haven`t got much russian tubes and can`t talk much along about these but I think the best I have is Voskhod 6H1N-EB with double wire support "cup-disc" getter, exposed heaters, small rocket logo.


----------



## Exacoustatowner

coil said:


> I would add also Amperex orange globe 6GM8 - has also great holographic 3D soundstage  Only Amperex tube that I can call "holographic" out of my collection.



I've got a few pairs of 6N1P's coming from Bob. I'm currently burning in a pair of Vokshod 6N23P Grey shields (1975).
I'm glad I have some socket savers on the way. I don't find it hard to swap tubes but this will make it easier!


----------



## esteboune

@rb2013
  
 What a fantastic work.
  
 Thank you so much to share you knowledge with baby rollers like me!
  
 i sent you a PM!


----------



## rb2013

esteboune said:


> @rb2013
> 
> What a fantastic work.
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks!
  
 Happy Rolling!


----------



## alandlandry

Just wanted to say thanks for the most interesting and insightful 6922 tube review I've seen to date.  Love the categories you selected in evaluating each tube and the care you took in painstakingly capturing the nuances of so many quality tubes.  Your insights on the Russian tubes are invaluable.  As a newcomer to the tube world with a modest tube phono preamp, the jungle surrounding vintage tubes is thick.  Thanks for the map and trail. I am already enjoying a pair of 74 Reflektor SWGP silver shields I scored on eBay.  Great job - thanks for the effort!


----------



## aneep

I ordered a pair of the 75 gray shields from rb to try out with my Brocksieper Earmax Pro amp and I can say that I am very very pleased with the results. The default tubes on the EMP are made by TAD but the rockets take this amp to another level. In fact there is no comparison between the TAD and the 75' gray shield rockets - the latter are in a completely different league. I haven't had a chance to compare these with any other 6922 variants but I am definitely tempted to. Sound wise the rockets are very very extended on both ends, instruments and voices are very real and very sweet and yet neutral, very wide sound soundstage and most importantly - fantastic bass. The bass is very pliant, very tight with oodles of nuances and details. The tubes are also very quiet - the silence between notes is very noticeable. All in all I am happy with the purchase. Money well spent.


----------



## esteboune

aneep said:


> I ordered a pair of the 75 gray shields from rb to try out with my Brocksieper Earmax Pro amp and I can say that I am very very pleased with the results. The default tubes on the EMP are made by TAD but the rockets take this amp to another level. In fact there is no comparison between the TAD and the 75' gray shield rockets - the latter are in a completely different league. I haven't had a chance to compare these with any other 6922 variants but I am definitely tempted to. Sound wise the rockets are very very extended on both ends, instruments and voices are very real and very sweet and yet neutral, very wide sound soundstage and most importantly - fantastic bass. The bass is very pliant, very tight with oodles of nuances and details. The tubes are also very quiet - the silence between notes is very noticeable. All in all I am happy with the purchase. Money well spent.


----------



## rb2013

Great write up on the HG 6n23p over on the Woo2 Tube rolling thread - couldn't have said it better myself. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  


> I figured I should chime in with my latest discovery in tube rolling.
> 
> For the past 6 months I have been playing Western 421As, Siemens CCAs, and Brimar EZ81s......a great sounding combo I was very happy with. I read a review about the Russian tube 6N23P Reflektor 1974 or 1975 single wire getter post. I found a used pair of '74s on ebay for $45 dollars and figured I would give them a try. I was impressed, to say the least. This pair beat my beloved $300+ pair of Siemens CCAs. It just had more life, more detail and had tremendous speed and agility. It played everything I threw at it with command and ease. How did this tube evade my radar for so long.
> 
> I contacted the seller and bought one of his prized pairs of matched '75s. This was a notch better than the '74s thatI was so impressed with. Wow!! Such incredible detail and imaging. Completely clear and transparent and very musical. This tube has elevated my WA2 to a new level of sound quality. My T1s never sounded better. I am very, very enamored with the sound of  this tube. I can not stop listening. I love my WA2/T1 combo


 
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/393811/woo-wa2-tube-rolling-recommendations/480#post_11877440
 Page 33 post #482
  
 Cheers!


----------



## stjj89

rb2013 said:


> Great write up on the HG 6n23p over on the Woo2 Tube rolling thread - couldn't have said it better myself.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Bob is back!


----------



## rb2013

stjj89 said:


> Bob is back!


 

 Whut up???  Been thinking about a MJOLNIR 2- sweet looking unit.
  
 Been lost in DDC USB bridge land...about to post a 5 unit review!


----------



## stjj89

rb2013 said:


> Whut up???  Been thinking about a MJOLNIR 2- sweet looking unit.
> 
> Been lost in DDC USB bridge land...about to post a 5 unit review!




Welcome back! It is sweet looking, right? Do try it out and let us know how it compares =)


----------



## rb2013

stjj89 said:


> Welcome back! It is sweet looking, right? Do try it out and let us know how it compares =)


 

 Next on Daddy's toy list!  Exactly what I was looking for - a balanced version of the Lyr/Lyr2.  But it's even better - quieter with much lower distortion.
  
 Best of all ----- it uses my HGs!


----------



## stjj89

rb2013 said:


> Next on Daddy's toy list!  Exactly what I was looking for - a balanced version of the Lyr/Lyr2.  But it's even better - quieter with much lower distortion.
> 
> Best of all ----- it uses my HGs!


 
  
 I'm tempted too, especially if it delivers more of what I like with the Lyr. I've heard so-so things about the original MJ though, so I wonder how much it will change with the new, tube'd up version.


----------



## Rayoki

I see you're carrying the gold pin version of the tubes on your ebay page, any difference from the regular swgp?


----------



## rb2013

stjj89 said:


> I'm tempted too, especially if it delivers more of what I like with the Lyr. I've heard so-so things about the original MJ though, so I wonder how much it will change with the new, tube'd up version.


 

 Well I'm just watching to see - but it's a whole other beast then the MJ.  The MJ like a balanced Asgard? and the MJ2 a balanced Lyr2?
  
 They have done some amazing things to the power supply - the noise in balanced mode is much quieter then even the Lyr2.  More juice too.  I have heard that my HD800s respond very well to balanced in terms of sound stage depth and holographic presentation.
  
 You know how I love the Lyr with the HGs and the HD800/Moon Black DragonsV2. 
  
 PS You should read this read in Stereo Times - I get an honorable mention
 http://stereotimes.com/post/yellowtec-puc2-lite-usb-converter/
  
 Cheers!


----------



## Exacoustatowner

rb2013 said:


> Well I'm just watching to see - but it's a whole other beast then the MJ.  The MJ like a balanced Asgard? and the MJ2 a balanced Lyr2?
> 
> They have done some amazing things to the power supply - the noise in balanced mode is much quieter then even the Lyr2.  More juice too.  I have heard that my HD800s respond very well to balanced in terms of sound stage depth and holographic presentation.
> 
> ...



Hey Tube God! I'll be curious to hear your impressions. I've the Ragnarok (fully balanced) and is sounds fantastic and "tube like" with my HE-560's in balanced mode. Must be something to do with it's unusual design. I am "jealous" of the M2 having the tube option.
I have tried the Lisst solid state option with my Lyr and I have to say that while not bad the HG's and other NOS tubes make my ears "happier."


----------



## rb2013

exacoustatowner said:


> Hey Tube God! I'll be curious to hear your impressions. I've the Ragnarok (fully balanced) and is sounds fantastic and "tube like" with my HE-560's in balanced mode. Must be something to do with it's unusual design. I am "jealous" of the M2 having the tube option.
> I have tried the Lisst solid state option with my Lyr and I have to say that while not bad the HG's and other NOS tubes make my ears "happier


 
 Nice unit!  I have heard mixed things about the LISST - even Schiit warns about using them in the Lyr1 due to higher noise then tubes.
  
 The spec differences -
 Just comparing specs on the Lyr2 to the MJ2 - it looks like the MJ2 is much quieter and has lower distortion:
  MJ2 Specs:
 Quote:


> *Frequency Response:* 20Hz-20Khz, -0.1db, 2Hz-400KHz, -3dB
> *Maximum Power, 32 ohms:* 8.0W RMS per channel
> *Maximum Power, 50 ohms:* 5.0W RMS per channel
> *Maximum Power, 300 ohms:* 850mW RMS per channel
> ...


 
 Lyr2 Specs:


> *Frequency Response:* 20Hz-20Khz, -0.1db, 2Hz-500KHz, -3dB
> *Maximum Power, 32 ohms:* 6.0W RMS per channel
> *Maximum Power, 50 ohms:* 4.0W RMS per channel
> *Maximum Power, 300 ohms:* 660mW RMS per channel
> ...


 
 Excellent power supply - this looks like one killer HP amp!
  
 Cheers


----------



## rb2013

rayoki said:


> I see you're carrying the gold pin version of the tubes on your ebay page, any difference from the regular swgp?


 

 Just the crappy camera on my phone - poor white balance.  No gold pins


----------



## Exacoustatowner

rb2013 said:


> Nice unit!  I have heard mixed things about the LISST - even Schiit warns about using them in the Lyr1 due to higher noise then tubes.
> 
> The spec differences -
> Just comparing specs on the Lyr2 to the MJ2 - it looks like the MJ2 is much quieter and has lower distortion:
> ...



Nice amp indeed!


----------



## rb2013

exacoustatowner said:


> Nice amp indeed!


 

 Oh yeah - on the top of Daddy's toy list


----------



## Rayoki

rb2013 said:


> Just the crappy camera on my phone - poor white balance.  No gold pins



Thanks man, I appreciate the response.


----------



## LFC_SL

Awesome thread. Is there a UK or Europe based site (excluding eBay)? TIA


----------



## rb2013

lfc_sl said:


> Awesome thread. Is there a UK or Europe based site (excluding eBay)? TIA


No just Ebay unfortunately


----------



## LFC_SL

rb2013 said:


> No just Ebay unfortunately



Thanks. Saw the cautionary note about eastern EU / Russian eBay sellers. Will try to look for W. EU based sellers. 

There is something funny about American sites buying up NOS in the case of European manufactured tubes. Or a few post codes down the road in the case of Mullards!


----------



## kevnin

Hi  - new mjolnir 2 owner here and new to tube rolling. This thread is a great resource. Only problem is I can't seem to find anywhere to buy the ones listed in the review!
  
 Would "Philips Miniwatt SQ E88CC / 6922 Gold Pin, Holland" be about the same as the miniwatts listed, or does the fact that it's E88CC instead of E188CC (and maybe its not VR9 - what does that mean?) make a big difference?


----------



## Guidostrunk

E188CC is the better tube. Higher quality of production , resulting in better sound quality. The ones you want to look for are from the Heerlen plant. Here's an example of Heerlen Holland tubes. If you look at the pics you can see a faint etched code , and you'll see the delta triangle in the code. The tubes in the link are actually at a great bidding price. Most of the time they can be had for around $150 a pair. VR9= VR=e188cc 9=batch 9. http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=121778467927&alt=web 





kevnin said:


> Hi  - new mjolnir 2 owner here and new to tube rolling. This thread is a great resource. Only problem is I can't seem to find anywhere to buy the ones listed in the review!
> 
> Would "Philips Miniwatt SQ E88CC / 6922 Gold Pin, Holland" be about the same as the miniwatts listed, or does the fact that it's E88CC instead of E188CC (and maybe its not VR9 - what does that mean?) make a big difference?


----------



## Guidostrunk

Join us at the "Schiit Lyr tube rollers" thread. You'll learn a lot about tubes , pretty quick. And see all the rolling madness. Lol.
Cheers


kevnin said:


> Hi  - new mjolnir 2 owner here and new to tube rolling. This thread is a great resource. Only problem is I can't seem to find anywhere to buy the ones listed in the review!
> 
> Would "Philips Miniwatt SQ E88CC / 6922 Gold Pin, Holland" be about the same as the miniwatts listed, or does the fact that it's E88CC instead of E188CC (and maybe its not VR9 - what does that mean?) make a big difference?


----------



## rb2013

kevnin said:


> Hi  - new mjolnir 2 owner here and new to tube rolling. This thread is a great resource. Only problem is I can't seem to find anywhere to buy the ones listed in the review!
> 
> Would "Philips Miniwatt SQ E88CC / 6922 Gold Pin, Holland" be about the same as the miniwatts listed, or does the fact that it's E88CC instead of E188CC (and maybe its not VR9 - what does that mean?) make a big difference?


Yes, the E188CC's are a higher spec tube. There are some folks who really like the 'Herleen' sound and the Philips/Amperex/Valvo are popular with a group on the Lyr tube thread. I preferred the greater detail and to my ears better holography of the top 6n23p. They seem to have a greater level of clarity and transparency then the warmer Dutch tubes. Yet retain the rich, natural tone that is my #1 attribute I require. The German Tele E188CC and Siemens CCa gray shields are truly world class, with a tilt to the detail/transparency side of neutral. For me the 'Holy Grail' tube is the '75 Reflectors. Superb in my systems. I use them in 2 different amps, a DAC and the Lyr (soon to be upgraded to a MJ2).

I just recieved an email from a tube amp audio dealer in Seattle. He was skeptical that the top 6n23p's could beat his huge collection of European E88CC, E188CC's, CCa's. After spending 6 weeks evaluating them, he is blown away by how good the HG 6n23p's are! Really astonished by their clarity.

Now my systems have very high quality sources, on my main system the DAC alone was $6k, with another $1k+ in USB interface. (See my Gustard U12 thread - using the excelllent Hydra Z to feed my APL NWOjr DAC). So with lessor sources, like the Schiit Bifrost Uber ($400), the Dutch tubes warmth may be prefered. I would say, spending some money on a higher quality source would be a wise investment.

Cheers!

Oh btw, check out the comments on the WA2 tube thread, rave reviews from some long time tube rollers there recently on the top 6n23p's.


----------



## MWSVette

rb2013 said:


> Yes, the E188CC's are a higher spec tube. They are some folks who really like the 'Herleen' sound and the Philips/Amperex/Valvo are popular with a group on the Lyr tube thread. I preferred the greater detail and to my ears better holography of the top 6n23p. They seem to have a greater level of clarity and transparency they the warmer Dutch tubes. Yet retain the rich, natural tone that is my #1 attribute I require. The German Tele E188CC and Siemens CCa gray shields are truly world class, with a tilt to the detail/transparency side of neutral. For me the 'Holy Grail' tube is the '75 Reflectors. Superb in my systems. I use them in 2 different amps, a DAC and the Lyr (soon to be upgraded to a MJ2).
> 
> I just recieved an email from a tube amp audio dealer in Seattle. He was skeptical that the top 6n23p's could beat his huge colletion of European E88CC, E188CC's, CCa's. After spending 6 weeks evaluating them, he is blown away by how good the HG 6n23p's are! Really astonished by their clarity.
> 
> ...


 
 G​ood to see ya, Bob...


----------



## rb2013

mwsvette said:


> G​ood to see ya, Bob...


Same here. Been traveling in Europe for the last month. Typing this in a hotel in Paris. Heading back to the states tomorrow. Miss my stereo systems.

Have a neat travel system iFiDAC 2 and Senn PCX450's. Best noise cancelers I've had yet! Feeding the iFi with a Li Ion 16,000mA battery pack and Forza Twin Copper split USB cable. Dell laptop and 1TB of music. Been a decent substitue, but in tube withdrawals!!!!!


----------



## shultzee

rb2013 said:


> kevnin said:
> 
> 
> > Hi  - new mjolnir 2 owner here and new to tube rolling. This thread is a great resource. Only problem is I can't seem to find anywhere to buy the ones listed in the review!
> ...


 
  
 Appreciate what you do here to help us not so educated tube rollers.   Keep up the good work.


----------



## rb2013

shultzee said:


> Appreciate what you do here to help us not so educated tube rollers.   Keep up the good work.


Thanks!

Like fine wine there are so many great tubes, and with the best it comes down to system and taste.

Good Luck!

BTW I discovered a new variant of the 6n23p. Will report soon on the listening results. Teaser it a unique getter disc ( not a halo like the later 6n23p-ev's or the inverted flying saucer in the vintage Voskhods or Reflektors).


----------



## reddog

I will be rereading this thread constantly do to my two new amps. Although I will not be buying to much, till I have payed of my spontaneous audio swag. Hmm a thanksgiving of romin noodles yum.


----------



## shultzee

reddog said:


> I will be rereading this thread constantly do to my two new amps. Although I will not be buying to much, till I have payed of my spontaneous audio swag. Hmm a thanksgiving of romin noodles yum.


 

 Sign me up for some of those Turkey flavored Ramen noodles.


----------



## rb2013

Nice comparison on the Lyr tube thread of the Valvo Herleen CCa Yellow print 1961's vs the HG's. 
  
 Post by member Astral Abyss on page 61 post #7674. 
  
 Unfortunately the Valvo Herleen CCa's weren't available when I did my review.
  
 Cheers!


----------



## rb2013

Buyer beware Seller on Ebay of Russian tubes goes by nos-tube.  Received a box of tubes - 80% fails or the wrong tube.  Refuses to issue a refund.
  
 Ugg!  These Ukrainian Ebay dealers make me nuts!


----------



## SuperU

Isn't it possible to have Ebay put it in dispute and get them to return your money? I don't know too much about dealing with issues on Ebay but seems they must have something in place.
  
 Sorry to hear you were scammed and thanks for the heads up.


----------



## rb2013

superu said:


> Isn't it possible to have Ebay put it in dispute and get them to return your money? I don't know too much about dealing with issues on Ebay but seems they must have something in place.
> 
> Sorry to hear you were scammed and thanks for the heads up.


 

 Yes working on that now.  But I really don't want the money - I want the HGs!  So hard to find now - that test good.  Just posted this as a 'Buyer Beware' to those without testers.


----------



## prot

Anyone tried these already? http://ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/accessory-nos-6922-2/


----------



## rb2013

prot said:


> Anyone tried these already? http://ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/accessory-nos-6922-2/


 
 No - but looks cool.  Any details on mu, heater current, etc...?
  
 From the iFi website:


> Factory installed, the GE5670 + Adapter work as one (they cannot and should not be separated under any circumstances).
> 
> User Note* In rare circumstances, the iFi GE5670 tube set may not be a suitable replacement for the 6922 valve. No damage should result but when replacing the valve, as always, check that this does not void your product warranty. AMR/iFi is not responsible for any damage/injury caused.
> If in doubt, consult your product manufacturer prior to change the tubes/valves.


 
 Wonder what would happen if you seperated them?  Do they explode.


----------



## prot

rb2013 said:


> No - but looks cool.  Any details on mu, heater current, etc...?
> 
> From the iFi website:
> Wonder what would happen if you seperated them?  Do they explode.


Dont know anything other than that product page. Seems to be a new launch too, doubt there are any online reviews.


----------



## Sonikku13

I know that tubes are generally used for music... but, in your opinion, what's the best 6DJ8/ECC88/6922/E88CC/7308/E188CC for gaming purposes? More specifically, FPS games where footsteps are prevalent for competitive gaming. For music purposes, my ideal sound signature seems to be the AD900X headphones. But I haven't tried any major tube rolling. My current tube is a Sylvania 6922.


----------



## rb2013

sonikku13 said:


> I know that tubes are generally used for music... but, in your opinion, what's the best 6DJ8/ECC88/6922/E88CC/7308/E188CC for gaming purposes? More specifically, FPS games where footsteps are prevalent for competitive gaming. For music purposes, my ideal sound signature seems to be the AD900X headphones. But I haven't tried any major tube rolling. My current tube is a Sylvania 6922.


 

 Well I think for gaming - like watching video - solid state is probably fine.  Can't really see where the advantages of tubes (see that section of my review for my take), would make much of a difference.


----------



## rb2013

http://www.ebay.com/itm/x4-6N23P-E88CC-6DJ8-6922-VOSKHOD-SINGLE-WIRE-Russian-TUBE-4PCS-QUATTRO-/252144640807?hash=item3ab4fde327:g:Xo8AAOSwo0JWL9qP
  
 Obviously plate post Voskhods - misrepresented as Single Wire Getter Posts.
  
 Oh Ebay Russian and Ukrainian tube dealers - UGG!


----------



## rb2013

Had to share from the Schiit Mjolnir 2 listening thread:
  


> Originally Posted by *bflat*
> 
> 
> After a week of tube rolling my opinions are:
> ...


 
  
 Cheers!


----------



## rb2013

It's been a while since I've posted here - I've been busy perfecting my music server and USB audio chain (see my popular Gustard U12 thread) to great effect - my systems have never sounded better.
  
 But I have some great news on the tube front!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I have been buying and listening to all kinds of CCa's, E188CC's, 7308's (and yes lot's from the land of wooden shoes) and nothing has yet come close to the remarkable HG '75 Reflektors SWGP in my system ($8K in upstream DAC and DDCs, cables, Regen, etc...) - except....
  
 A new discovery - a very, very rare HG '75 Reflektor SWGP made for export!  These have the same construction with a greater amount of getter flashing - and an overall sound signature similar to the regular HG's - just more of it!  Just a tad sweeter, dynamic and a bit more flow factor - the sound staging a bit deeper and wider - more holographic. Just a bit more of all the traits that had me falling in love with the HGs in the beginning.
  
 So here they are the Uber-HG's!  Cheers to all the many, many folks who have tried the HG's and sent their audio nirvana stories to me. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  


  
 I have been looking all over for these and only found one source - and have a small stash to keep my home lit for many a Christmas!  They are the quietest tube I have ever heard - simply amazing glass.


----------



## DWbirdseye

Would you care to share the source?


----------



## shultzee

rb2013 said:


> It's been a while since I've posted here - I've been busy perfecting my music server and USB audio chain (see my popular Gustard U12 thread) to great effect - my systems have never sounded better.
> 
> But I have some great news on the tube front!
> 
> ...


 

 Nice!   The Holy Grail standard creeps up a notch.


----------



## rb2013

dwbirdseye said:


> Would you care to share the source?


 

 As they have run dry - it would do no good.  I had a half dozen of these overseas tube dealer looking for these for the last few months - they are extraordinarily hard to find.  I only stumbled onto them by accident.  Tried a pair and was blown away - in all the years I have been searching the Ebay and internet for new finds in the 6n23p arena I have never come across these before.
  
 I post this in hope that someone will come across another source - if you do and are not absolutely blown away by these - I will gladly buy them from you!


----------



## rb2013

shultzee said:


> Nice!   The Holy Grail standard creeps up a notch.


 

 I keep looking and listening for something better -  not yet.  I did find these unique 6n23p's Reflektors from '77 - not with the inverted saucer getter - but a small flat disc.
  
 Cool looking - but only mediocre in sound quality...here is a picture.
  

  
  
  
 Also found these unique Reflektor 6n23p's from the '65 and '66 - with a dual straight wire getter - just sold the 'test' pair on Ebay - they were pretty good - but not earth shattering.


----------



## spyder1

rb2013,
  
 I noticed that you are selling premium Russian Vacuum Tubes. Are your sales a regular occurrence, hobby, or selling overstock? The comparison test, and write up is informative. Any opinion, about E288CC, 7DJ8?


----------



## rb2013

spyder1 said:


> rb2013,
> 
> I noticed that you are selling premium Russian Vacuum Tubes. Are your sales a regular occurrence, hobby, or selling overstock? The comparison test, and write up is informative. Any opinion, about E288CC, 7DJ8?


 

 To get the best HG's I've had to buy random lots and screen through them.  That leaves me with lots of the other decent, but not totl 6n23p's.  Those I test and match up and list when I have time.  In those random lots I do occasionally come across some thing new, and that's where I found these HG's marked 'Made in the USSR' without the Reflektor logo.
  
 It's been very hard to find good matched pairs of the better 70's vintage Russian tubes from the normal tube dealers.  Probably why these amazing tubes went undiscovered for so long.  Before I came upon these I was a big European and US E188CC, 7308, 6922, CCa fan.  Stumbled onto some random '80s Voskhods on Audiogon years ago, I did like the sound.  But it wasn't until getting a Lyr HP amp - that I really got curious about these and started sorting through and doing comparative listening on the different years and constructions.  Sorry for the long story - but just wanted you to understand the history behind the review.
  
 After making the discovery of the better '70s vintages - I wanted to see if others had a similar take on them.  But again no dealer stocked the better '70s in vetted and matched prs.  So I did it and sold some - the feedback was almost universally positive.
  
 Here is a link to the original review I did back in 2013 after sorting through the 6n23p Voskhods.  My ranking for these still stands - but later I did find the very rare '74 and '75 HG Reflektor 6n23p with the unique single wire getter posts.  The silver shield version my top Russian tube, the '75 HG my #1 6922 class tube.
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/549508/schiit-lyr-the-tube-rolling-thread/8595
  
 The 7DJ8/PCC88 are a 7volt variant of the 6DJ8/E88CC.  Most I tried don't sound very good - at least in my equipment (2 amps, a DAC and the Lyr).  But there is a very rare PCC88 that is just outstanding - the famed Lorenz Stuttgart's (NOT the Lorenz SEL made in Yugoslavia!).  They are very, very good.  The best of these are the triple mica version.  They do show up on Ebay rarely but occasionally.

  
  
 The E288CC is not a member of the 6DJ8 family (as some tube dealers claim).  Here is a good link and quote:
 http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=tubes&m=71100
  


> n Reply to: Can you use the E288CC tube to replace 6DJ8 anytime? posted by blazter on December 12, 2001 at 19:02:16:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Cheers!


----------



## MWSVette

> Cheers!


 
  
 Bob just wanted you to know I am loving the HD800's and the 75 HG's.  Dressed the HD800's in new ear pads and new headband.  They sound and look great.  Thanks for the great HP's and tubes.
  
  
 Cheers
 Mike


----------



## rb2013

mwsvette said:


> Bob just wanted you to know I am loving the HD800's and the 75 HG's.  Dressed the HD800's in new ear pads and new headband.  They sound and look great.  Thanks for the great HP's and tubes.
> 
> 
> Cheers
> Mike


 

 Hey Mike - great to hear that found a good home!
  
 Still looking for a replacement - the money has been going to new cables and gear.  and more Tubes! Tubes! Tubes!.
  
 Cheers
 Bob


----------



## spyder1

rb2013,
  
 Thank you for the detailed reply,(study time needed). I will follow your listing on ebay! rb2013, can you share 1, or 2 steps, of your vacuum tube pin cleaning protocol?


----------



## rb2013

spyder1 said:


> rb2013,
> 
> Thank you for the detailed reply,(study time needed). I will follow your listing on ebay! rb2013, can you share 1, or 2 steps, of your vacuum tube pin cleaning protocol?


 

 Sure - pre-heat the tubes then soak in DeoxiT D25L for one day - use a small soft bristle brush to remove the oxidation, then wipe off the excess D25L, use a soft pad wiper to clean further, then coat with DeoxiT Gold GxMD.

 The secret is to find the right brush.
  
 Good Luck and Happy Rolling!


----------



## kolkoo

So rb I've been thinking, do you have any logical explanation as for why the russian '75 vintage single wire getter tubes, be it Voskhod or Reflector sound so good? I mean there are mid '50s tubes with gold pins and gold inside of 'em, supposedly really good materials so if they sound great - it makes sense. Then we have the russian tubes which are not gold pinned, don't look anything special and are more alike to ECC88(6dj8) than to the premium E88CC(6922) and yet they sound pretty great, there is something about them, is it the construction, the russian "earth metals" inside, and why '75 and not the previous or latter years? I mean for the premium E88CC we know that the '50s were the boom of tubes for everything then in the '60s they started to get replaced by solid state, so why did the russian tubes sound best in 1975?  Quite fascinating stuff


----------



## rb2013

kolkoo said:


> So rb I've been thinking, do you have any logical explanation as for why the russian '75 vintage single wire getter tubes, be it Voskhod or Reflector sound so good? I mean there are mid '50s tubes with gold pins and gold inside of 'em, supposedly really good materials so if they sound great - it makes sense. Then we have the russian tubes which are not gold pinned, don't look anything special and are more alike to ECC88(6dj8) than to the premium E88CC(6922) and yet they sound pretty great, there is something about them, is it the construction, the russian "earth metals" inside, and why '75 and not the previous or latter years? I mean for the premium E88CC we know that the '50s were the boom of tubes for everything then in the '60s they started to get replaced by solid state, so why did the russian tubes sound best in 1975?  Quite fascinating stuff


 

 Hi Kolkoo!
  
 Well that is a great question.  Even broader - how come any of these wonderful 40, 50, 60 year old tubes better by a huge margin the new production stuff?
  
 I don't think is has any thing to do with gold plating - as I have heard many gold plated pin tubes that sound pretty mediocre.  Take for example these Sylvania 6922 Vintage gold pins - I'd take any vintage Voskhod or SWGP Reflektor over these any day - go figure?

  
 I think it was just serendipity - that all the particular construction materials and processes just lined up the right way.  Like great wine vintages.
  
 Now I know that these Russian tubes were made for their space program - and were used into the '80's where in the west solid state were then being used.  So these had to be built hardier (the glass is thicker on the Russian tubes).
  
 They are also rated to a higher voltage then the European variants like the CCa, E188CC, E88CC, ECC88:
  
 From AA: http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=tubes&m=207502


> The 6H23p has been sometimes called the equivalent to the 6DJ8 and the "-EB" on the end is the 6922 equivalent.​​ ​ However, the Russian 6DJ8 family tubes seem to have higher ratings for current handling than the Western European designations:​​ ​ 6DJ8 ratings:​​ ​ ECC88 = 6DJ8-- 130V/1,8W​​ ​ E88CC= 6922 -- 220V/1,8W​​ ​ E188CC= 7308 -- 250V/2W​​ ​ 6H23p Sovtek 6922-- 300V/1,8W​​ ​ 6H23p-EB/ EH 6922-- 300V/2W​​ ​ -so actually, the plain 6H23p has a rating like a 6922 and the -EB is more E188CC / 7308.​


----------



## kolkoo

Nice! Thanks for the info 
  
 After I bought that HG '75 pair from you earlier and it sounded pretty awesome albeit slightly microphonic when flipping switches on the Lyr2 for example (which is totally normal and no problem at all for me), I bought 16 6n23ps on ebay from some seller that has tested them with L3-3 and most of them were rated over or around 100% on both emission and mutual conductance, and I also saw an HG in there in the pics so I went for it  Out of those I found several nice pairs but more notably '75 Voskhod SWGP and the '75 Reflector SWGP HG. So since the Voskhod construction looks exactly the same as the Reflector and the years matched I decided to try and mix/match these with the pair of HGs I have from you. And damn the Voskhod + 1 HG of yours has 0 microphonics and it sounds fantastic. So I currently have a slightly microphonic HG pair and a non-microphonic HG/75 Voskhod pair. I've burnt in the mixbreed pair for about 70-80 hours and it sounds amazing to me and I can;t hear any difference between the channels. I've read most of your reviews but still have you tried mix matching 75 voskhod with reflectors before and how much can you hear - is the difference really noticeable?
  
 Maybe on my system Bifrost MB->Lyr2 -> (LC2 rev2 no fazor / MrSpeakers AlphaDog) the difference can't be heard, but I am still curious about your opinion.
  
 Also congrats on the nice find of Uber HGs - they look sexy as hell! Not sure why the western tubes are so thin and tall but the russian ones are a bit shorter and thicker - way sexier to me


----------



## rb2013

kolkoo said:


> Nice! Thanks for the info
> 
> After I bought that HG '75 pair from you earlier and it sounded pretty awesome albeit slightly microphonic when flipping switches on the Lyr2 for example (which is totally normal and no problem at all for me), I bought 16 6n23ps on ebay from some seller that has tested them with L3-3 and most of them were rated over or around 100% on both emission and mutual conductance, and I also saw an HG in there in the pics so I went for it  Out of those I found several nice pairs but more notably '75 Voskhod SWGP and the '75 Reflector SWGP HG. So since the Voskhod construction looks exactly the same as the Reflector and the years matched I decided to try and mix/match these with the pair of HGs I have from you. And damn the Voskhod + 1 HG of yours has 0 microphonics and it sounds fantastic. So I currently have a slightly microphonic HG pair and a non-microphonic HG/75 Voskhod pair. I've burnt in the mixbreed pair for about 70-80 hours and it sounds amazing to me and I can;t hear any difference between the channels. I've read most of your reviews but still have you tried mix matching 75 voskhod with reflectors before and how much can you hear - is the difference really noticeable?
> 
> ...


 

 As you remember the pair of HG's I sold you had much less then optimal matching - of course at a very reduced price.  Just to give you an idea of their flavor - a truly top pair with closer section matching and balance would have greater detail and a much more focused sound staging.  So I think your mixing has just given you a better matching - but still wouldn't compare to a top pair of HG's.  The '75 Voskhod SWGP and the Reflektor '75 HG have a very important difference in construction - the VR's have gray shields and the HG's silver.  This makes for a very significant difference in SQ.  I have tried all kinds of mixing and matching to no avail.  The slight difference in sound character serve to muddy and blur the detail - some of the best traits of the top 6n23p - just incredible detail retrieval.  Of course on systems with mediocre sources that detail retrieval can be a negative - where many may prefer a warmer more 'rounded off' tube.
  
 Now take those Ukrainian Ebay sellers and their L3-3 'test readings' and toss them out the window.  Along with their claims of the tubes being 'NOS' or New!  I buy lot's of them and their 'tested' tubes fail even basic testing 40% of the time.  They just can not be trusted.  I used to complain and write negative feedback - and Ebay would just refund me and erase the negative comments.  The seller would then block me from buying again, looking for buyers without testers.  They protect their big sellers.  On Ebay it truly is buyer beware.
  
 I have been busy refining my source even further - making major gains these last few months focusing on the USB bridge and related enhancements (Uptone Regen, Wyrd Remedy, Jitterbugs, all kind of power supply and AC filtering on the digital stuff).  The results have been even greater souce resolution and imaging - the HG's have kept pace and are now revealing even more of what they are capable of.  The new Uber HGs are the quietest tubes I have ever - not heard.
  
 You can follow my USB source experiments on my popular Gustard U12 thread with over 250,000 views approaching the Lyr tube rolling thread!
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/736294/gustard-u12-usb-interface-8-core-xmos-chip
  
 They are sexy!  And the sound is just mesmerizing and captivating in the right system.
  
 Cheers!


----------



## kolkoo

By the way I may have found your dried up stash of uber hgs, as you got me curious about them 
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/251785398931 or maybe I'm wrong


----------



## rb2013

kolkoo said:


> By the way I may have found your dried up stash of uber hgs, as you got me curious about them
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/251785398931 or maybe I'm wrong


 

 You are good!   They were marked as PCC88's New in the box!  But the Russians never made a PCC88 - they were relabed with just a wash off stamp!  That's why they never showed up on my radar screen - until one of the dealers sent one to me in a batch of 6n23p's.  Luck!
  
 I have seen 6n23p's relabled for export from everything from ECC189's to 7308s.
  
 Here is a pair sold in Canada by Westinghouse relabeled as Made in the USA and 7308's!  Obviously  Voskhod 6n23p '78 silver shields.


----------



## kolkoo

Haha managed to find your macedonian stash as well  This is quite fun actually, unfortunately outside of that can't find anymore info, but I will keep googlin', maybe here in Bulgaria as we're close to serbia and macedonia I can try to find more of these. I have no idea where to even start looking though


----------



## rb2013

kolkoo said:


> Haha managed to find your macedonian stash as well  This is quite fun actually, unfortunately outside of that can't find anymore info, but I will keep googlin', maybe here in Bulgaria as we're close to serbia and macedonia I can try to find more of these. I have no idea where to even start looking though


 

 Do you work for the CIA?  Just kidding!  I have been searching for more of these for months - I think I may have gotten them all.  I hope not.  I have just a few spare pairs.
  
 Happy hunting!


----------



## kolkoo

Some day when I get a tester (I'm thinking of assembling a uTracer http://www.dos4ever.com/uTracer3/uTracer3_pag0.html) I can actually buy russian tubes and test them, currently as I have no way of verifying I just am thankful when I see russian auctions with ANY measurement, outside of "NOS NEW TESTED", at least when the dudes list L3-3 measurements it's better than nothing  Until that day I'll stick with the russian pairs I currently have and keep trying out different european tubes from sellers whose measurements I can trust. I saw your HGs on ebay and as tempting as they are with shipping to Bulgaria and custom fees/VAT price gets pretty steep and I've already spent a ton on different tubes to try out  Still I appreciate the work you do and the info you provide (even if it's delayed by a few months  )


----------



## rb2013

kolkoo said:


> Some day when I get a tester (I'm thinking of assembling a uTracer http://www.dos4ever.com/uTracer3/uTracer3_pag0.html) I can actually buy russian tubes and test them, currently as I have no way of verifying I just am thankful when I see russian auctions with ANY measurement, outside of "NOS NEW TESTED", at least when the dudes list L3-3 measurements it's better than nothing  Until that day I'll stick with the russian pairs I currently have and keep trying out different european tubes from sellers whose measurements I can trust. I saw your HGs on ebay and as tempting as they are with shipping to Bulgaria and custom fees/VAT price gets pretty steep and I've already spent a ton on different tubes to try out  Still I appreciate the work you do and the info you provide (even if it's delayed by a few months  )


 

 I laugh at the 'NOS' 'New' tubes I buy that arrive full of grime - bent pins - worn out test measurements!  Oh well - it's just part of the deal.
  
 The HG's have become very, very hard to find in matched, test passing quality.  I have some with wide section balances and will eventually sell those for very low prices - if someone has gear that only uses one section they would be perfect.  Tubemonger even sells a section flipper tube riser.  So it doesn't matter which section is the strong one.
  
 The Lyr does use both. 
  
 I would save up for a better DAC  - not that the Bifrost Uber isn't great for the money.  But it's only mediocre compared to many reasonably priced DACs like the Gumby or Lite DAC60.  You might get better SQ putting money in that direction vs more tubes.  You can only listen to one pair at a time. 
  
 Enjoy!


----------



## rb2013

edit - wrong thread


----------



## Mr.Tom

*Thanks for all of your time on this. I'm happy to see someone else shares my love and my findings about how good some Russian tubes sound. I've been yelling this same message for the last 10 years. I like the Russians tubes sooooooo much, that some years back I bought a few tube testers and Thousands of Russian tubes. I've sold over 100 sets for the Valhalla. My findings are close to yours,Althoe I find the best quality comes from the Novosibirsk** factory. Some of the worst I've heard were from the *Voskhod factory. Reflectors are nice, but really don't shine in my Valhalla, as they seem to have a bit of a mid range bump, leaving the bass feeling weak. They sound very good in some hybrids I've heard.


----------



## rb2013

mr.tom said:


> *Thanks for all of your time on this. I'm happy to see someone else shares my love and my findings about how good some Russian tubes sound. I've been yelling this same message for the last 10 years. I like the Russians tubes sooooooo much, that some years back I bought a few tube testers and Thousands of Russian tubes. I've sold over 100 sets for the Valhalla. My findings are close to yours,Althoe I find the best quality comes from the Novosibirsk** factory. Some of the worst I've heard were from the *Voskhod factory. Reflectors are nice, but really don't shine in my Valhalla, as they seem to have a bit of a mid range bump, leaving the bass feeling weak. They sound very good in some hybrids I've heard.


 

 Thanks for the kind words.
  
 In the Valhalla you can run 6n1p's as well as the 6n23p's.  I'm assuming you are speaking of the 6n1p (certain 6n5p's) Novo's - haven't seen many 70's vintage Novo 6n23p's.
  
 If you have any of the Voskhod '75 6n23p or single wire Reflektors '75 6n23p silver shields - shoot me a PM.   I wouldn't mind picking a few more up.
  
 BTW I have a massive collection of Novo vintage tubes (the triple mica '66s are my favorite).  Maybe we could do a swap.
  
 Cheers!


----------



## Mr.Tom

I stand corrected! It's been a couple of years since I've tried the 6n23p. After reading your findings, I dug some 71 Reflectors out and gave them a whirl. Maybe I formed my earlier opinion with some Rocket 6n23p's. You are correct! they do sound dam good! Maybe too much bass(if thats posable). Mids are smooth, highs are sweet with detail. I should have never doubted you, after all the time you put into this. Also much deeper soundstage with the Reflectors.
  
 I'm holding on to most of my more rare Russians until they increase in value to $100.+ a piece.


----------



## rb2013

mr.tom said:


> I stand corrected! It's been a couple of years since I've tried the 6n23p. After reading your findings, I dug some 71 Reflectors out and gave them a whirl. Maybe I formed my earlier opinion with some Rocket 6n23p's. You are correct! they do sound dam good! Maybe too much bass(if thats posable). Mids are smooth, highs are sweet with detail. I should have never doubted you, after all the time you put into this. Also much deeper soundstage with the Reflectors.
> 
> I'm holding on to most of my more rare Russians until they increase in value to $100.+ a piece.


 

 Those '71 Reflektors are 6n23p's?  Do they have the dual dimpled plate getter posts?
  
 The ones you want to try were only made in two years '74 and '75.  These are the very rare Reflektor 6n23p with a single curved wire getter post.  In '75 they only made the silver shield version - these are my 'Holy Grail' tubes.  In '74 they made a silver and gray shield version - with SWGP - both very good.  But the silver's are better and 2nd only to the HGs for the 6n23p family - imho.  Some folks like the '74 silver's better.  These have become extremely rare.
  
 Even rarer still are a version of the HGs made only for export - they are what I run exclusively right now.  The rarest of the rare.   Finding Siemens CCa's horseshoe getters, Tele CCa's or Valvo CCa Yellow's is a breeze compared to finding these.
  
 To my ears these export only HGs are the finest tube I have ever heard.


----------



## thecrow

rb2013 said:


> Those '71 Reflektors are 6n23p's?  Do they have the dual dimpled plate getter posts?
> 
> The ones you want to try were only made in two years '74 and '75.  These are the very rare Reflektor 6n23p with a single curved wire getter post.  In '75 they only made the silver shield version - these are my 'Holy Grail' tubes.  In '74 they made a silver and gray shield version - with SWGP - both very good.  But the silver's are better and 2nd only to the HGs for the 6n23p family - imho.  Some folks like the '74 silver's better.  These have become extremely rare.
> 
> ...


 
 are these exactly the tubes you are referring to?
  
  
 http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/6N23P-E88CC-6922-6DJ8-Matched-PAIR-REFLEKTOR-SingleWire-SilverShield-75-2-/181985604571?hash=item2a5f2ff3db:g:i7wAAOSw5dNWkBr9


----------



## rb2013

thecrow said:


> are these exactly the tubes you are referring to?
> 
> 
> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/6N23P-E88CC-6922-6DJ8-Matched-PAIR-REFLEKTOR-SingleWire-SilverShield-75-2-/181985604571?hash=item2a5f2ff3db:g:i7wAAOSw5dNWkBr9


 

 Yes - but would not trust that Ebay seller.  Sends bad tubes then if you complain - you have to send back to the Ukraine (which now almost requires a state dept approval) for a refund.  Ebay removes the negative feedback and he will block you from further purchases - as he has done to me.  I have a tube tester and close to half the tubes he sent me were fails or very noisy.  His claim these are 'NOS' (New Old Stock) are a joke - grimmie with bent pins - obviously used pulls.  To bad no legitimate dealers have these - like Brent Jesse or Tube World.
  
 If you buy from a end user - be sure to ask where they came from.  I think part of the the reason these tubes were overlooked for so long - many folks who bought them got bad tubes without realizing it.
  
 BUYER BEWARE when buying on Ebay from these Ukrainian and Russian dealers.  I just received 5 HGs - 3 were outright fails - of the two good ones, one was noisy beyond belief.  So only one good tube - ridiculous.
  
 Good luck!


----------



## CFGamescape

rb2013 said:


> BUYER BEWARE when buying on Ebay from these Ukrainian and Russian dealers.  I just received 5 HGs - 3 were outright fails - of the two good ones, one was noisy beyond belief.  So only one good tube - ridiculous.


 
 Thanks for taking one--or in this case, four--for the team.


----------



## thecrow

rb2013 said:


> Yes - but would not trust that Ebay seller.  Sends bad tubes then if you complain - you have to send back to the Ukraine (which now almost requires a state dept approval) for a refund.  Ebay removes the negative feedback and he will block you from further purchases - as he has done to me.  I have a tube tester and close to half the tubes he sent me were fails or very noisy.  His claim these are 'NOS' (New Old Stock) are a joke - grimmie with bent pins - obviously used pulls.  To bad no legitimate dealers have these - like Brent Jesse or Tube World.
> 
> If you buy from a end user - be sure to ask where they came from.  I think part of the the reason these tubes were overlooked for so long - many folks who bought them got bad tubes without realizing it.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the heads up. I won't order from this guy. 

Under what premise does ebay remove negative feedback?

Why's it so hard to return stuff to these areas? What do you end up having to do? I also wondered about that re buying from classifieds, such as here, from members in these countries


 Is there also better protection if claiming a return/refund with PayPal?


----------



## rb2013

thecrow said:


> Thanks for the heads up. I won't order from this guy.
> 
> Under what premise does ebay remove negative feedback?
> 
> ...


 

 I went to create a shipping label to send some tubes back to this Ukraine Ebay tube dealer - the USPS would not allow an online shipping label to be generated - had to got to the PO to do it.  The folks at Uptone mentioned the issues they had shipping a Regen there - needs some kind of background check for the shipper.  I just kept the tubes and eat the loss.
  
 Yes after a claim is filed and once the money is refunded that remove the negative feedback - they protect their sellers.  To get the Paypal buyer protection you have to prove the item was returned.  Try sending some tubes to the Ukraine with tracking and delivery confirmation - see how much that'll cost you.


----------



## thecrow

rb2013 said:


> I went to create a shipping label to send some tubes back to this Ukraine Ebay tube dealer - the USPS would not allow an online shipping label to be generated - had to got to the PO to do it.  The folks at Uptone mentioned the issues they had shipping a Regen there - needs some kind of background check for the shipper.  I just kept the tubes and eat the loss.
> 
> Yes after a claim is filed and once the money is refunded that remove the negative feedback - they protect their sellers.  To get the Paypal buyer protection you have to prove the item was returned.  Try sending some tubes to the Ukraine with tracking and delivery confirmation - see how much that'll cost you.


I might see how much flights from Sydney to the Ukraine are in case I need to return something in the future then. 

Sounds cheaper than bribing a few people along the way in track and tracing an item


----------



## Mr.Tom

rb2013 said:


> Yes - but would not trust that Ebay seller.  Sends bad tubes then if you complain - you have to send back to the Ukraine (which now almost requires a state dept approval) for a refund.  Ebay removes the negative feedback and he will block you from further purchases - as he has done to me.  I have a tube tester and close to half the tubes he sent me were fails or very noisy.  His claim these are 'NOS' (New Old Stock) are a joke - grimmie with bent pins - obviously used pulls.  To bad no legitimate dealers have these - like Brent Jesse or Tube World.
> 
> If you buy from a end user - be sure to ask where they came from.  I think part of the the reason these tubes were overlooked for so long - many folks who bought them got bad tubes without realizing it.
> 
> ...


 

 Yep! Total dirtbag! Lucky for me I figure him out thru messages before I bought any of his worn out(so called) NOS tubes.


----------



## rb2013

mr.tom said:


> Yep! Total dirtbag! Lucky for me I figure him out thru messages before I bought any of his worn out(so called) NOS tubes.


 

 Good for you - I have bought many, many, many of tubes from this pirates - not one I could vouch for.  Occasionally a new seller will popup on Ebay with some decent tubes - but it's quite random.


----------



## rb2013

thecrow said:


> I might see how much flights from Sydney to the Ukraine are in case I need to return something in the future then.
> 
> Sounds cheaper than bribing a few people along the way in track and tracing an item


 

 LOL! Oh look at what this hobby has done to me - roaming the dark, seedy alleys of Ukrainian Ebay tube dealers for prized glass.


----------



## Mr.Tom

rb2013 said:


> Good for you - I have bought many, many, many of tubes from this pirates - not one I could vouch for.  Occasionally a new seller will popup on Ebay with some decent tubes - but it's quite random.


 

 I have really good luck buying from the former republics, and staying away from the greedy Ukrainian capitalist.


----------



## rb2013

mr.tom said:


> I have really good luck buying from the former republics, and staying away from the greedy Ukrainian capitalist.


 

 Do you have a tester?  I've found the Bulgarian, Moldovan and Russian dealers just as bad.
  
 A truly matched pair will sound better then a pair with wide differences in section balances and pair matching.


----------



## Mr.Tom

rb2013 said:


> Do you have a tester?  I've found the Bulgarian, Moldovan and Russian dealers just as bad.
> 
> A truly matched pair will sound better then a pair with wide differences in section balances and pair matching.


 

*I have a few testers. Been playing with tube gear for 35 years. Got into Russian tubes when I heard a few sound better than most US NOS. My findings are a bit different than yours, but we are using different systems, and the same model/years tubes will sound different to us. I prefer Novosibirsk from the late 60's/Early 70's. You seem to favor *Voskhod from the mid 70's. I've found Russian tubes from the late 50's thru the early 60's to be unreliable(but sound very nice). So I stick with 1970 +/-4 years.
*Later is ok, but I find they lose the musical factor, the later one go's. *
  
*I've also found that even a poor year/model tube can sound good, if it's sections are matched within 2%(5% at most). When I sold tube set for the Valhalla, I matched section to section, and tube to tube, to better than 5%. This made a hugh difference in SQ.*


----------



## rb2013

mr.tom said:


> *I have a few testers. Been playing with tube gear for 35 years. Got into Russian tubes when I heard a few sound better than most US NOS. My findings are a bit different than yours, but we are using different systems, and the same model/years tubes will sound different to us. I prefer Novosibirsk from the late 60's/Early 70's. You seem to favor *Voskhod from the mid 70's. I've found Russian tubes from the late 50's thru the early 60's to be unreliable(but sound very nice). So I stick with 1970 +/-4 years.
> *Later is ok, but I find they lose the musical factor, the later one go's. *
> 
> *I've also found that even a poor year/model tube can sound good, if it's sections are matched within 2%(5% at most). When I sold tube set for the Valhalla, I matched section to section, and tube to tube, to better than 5%. This made a hugh difference in SQ.*


 

 Actually my favorites are not the Voskhods but the very rare Reflektors - only made in '74 and '75 - with the single wire getter post.  The silver shield version the best of the best.  Now after posting about these for sometime - and selling a few pairs to other Headfiers - the response has been almost universal agreement with my rankings.  Read the comments on the Woo WA 2 tube thread (posts #482, #492, #507-comparing to the Siemens CCa, #509, #512, #518, #546) this from very experienced tube rollers.  On the Schiit Mojnir 2 thread, Lyr Tube rolling thread, etc...
  
 I have also received comments from others using them in ARC pre-amps (and tube rolling for a decade), and all kinds of gear.  The HGs and Reflektor '74 Silver SWGP are clear winners.  There are a few 'Herleen Heads' that prefer their warmer more rounded presentation on the Lyr thread.  But even there - there are posters who have tried the Heerlens and the HGs prefer the HGs.
  
 The bottom line is the feedback on these rare Reflektor 6n23p's has been extremely positive.
  
 Here are my favorite NEVZ (Novosibrisk)  - the rare '66 triple mica, gold grid, black plates. 


  
  
 I have a large collection of 6n1p Novo's in the '66, '72, '74, '75 available in matched and tested pairs -for very cheap - PM me if anyone wants to try them.  The 6n1p is compatible with the original Vallhalla and Lyr (which use AC heaters) - but not the Val2 or Lyr2 (DC heaters).
  
 Cheers!


----------



## Mr.Tom

rb2013 said:


> The 6n1p is compatible with the original Vallhalla and Lyr (which use AC heaters) - but not the Val2 or Lyr2 (DC heaters).
> 
> Cheers!


 
 I had no idea Schiit made this change. Seems odd.


----------



## Deftone

Thank you, I appreciate the time you took to do this.


----------



## rb2013

mr.tom said:


> I had no idea Schiit made this change. Seems odd.


 
 Yes the AC heaters were very powerful - but a bit noisey.  Going to DC heaters quieted things down  - but they can't put out the current that the 6n1p need.
  


deftone said:


> Thank you, I appreciate the time you took to do this.


 
 You're welcome - I hope it helps


----------



## reddog

I re-read the review, and I was still overwhelmed with so much information. Thanks again for compiling so much information. I hope to get more tubes once I get another job .


----------



## rb2013

reddog said:


> I re-read the review, and I was still overwhelmed with so much information. Thanks again for compiling so much information. I hope to get more tubes once I get another job
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks!


----------



## Javin

Hi rb2013, Hi all,
  
 I am a new member here. I have a NOS Reflector 74' 6H23pi-EB and a Reflector 78' 6H23pi-EB . The inside structure look like the same. Both are gray plate but different getter. According to your experience. Which one is better?
  
 I am sorry about I can not attach any picture and image here.....and why??


----------



## rb2013

javin said:


> Hi rb2013, Hi all,
> 
> I am a new member here. I have a NOS Reflector 74' 6H23pi-EB and a Reflector 78' 6H23pi-EB . The inside structure look like the same. Both are gray plate but different getter. According to your experience. Which one is better?
> 
> I am sorry about I can not attach any picture and image here.....and why??


 

 The -EB's are completely different design - using a dual dimpled plate getter post.  '74 or '78 Mediocre at best. The '74 and '75 6n23p Reflektor's are very rare and have a single wire getter post.
  
 BTW the 6H23P or 6N23P are interchangeable - it's just a different interpretation of the Russian Cyrillic alphabet.


----------



## rb2013

This is what the HG's (and other components I have recently found) -  do _*'Resolution'*_, quoting Robert Harley from the latest Absolute Sound - this describes it perfectly:
  


> But can a hi-fi system ever have _too much_ resolution?
> That we would think to ask such a question reflects a general misconception of what resolution is.  To be fair, unless you've heard real honest-to-goodness resolution-it's impossible to appreciate its transformative effect on the listening experience.  Resolution has for a long time been conflated with threadbare timbres, exaggerated transients, desaturated tone colors, and a general absence of warmth.  The last iota of information is ruthlessly laid bare and the sound degenerates into sterility, resulting in rapid listening fatigue.
> That characterization is true of products that attempt to sound highly resolving without really delivering resolution.  These products hype transient leading edges, are tipped-up in the treble, add a metallic sheen to timbres, and try to impress with sonic fireworks rather then by revealing musical nuances.  As they say in Texas, "Big hat, no cattle".
> *But a hi-fi system that delivers real resolution sounds nothing like this stereotype.*  *In fact, higher resolution renders greater tonal saturation, warmth, and instrumental body by virtue of reveling the timbral microstructure, which only contributes to a sense of realism and life.  Instrumental textures simply sound more like the real thing when a system  accurately portrays the instrument's harmonic and dynamic structure in all its finely textured glory*.  Unfortunately, it's these low-level signal components that are the easiest to lose.  Resolution is shaved off in every stage of the audio chain, from tonearm resonances, to electronic colorations, the mechanical structures in transducers.  It takes extraordinarily skilled design to create products that deliver true resolution.
> ...


 
 Realism, life like, spell binding, connection to the musicians - for me that's what it's all about.


----------



## TEH725

Thanks for the work on this thread.
  
 I just stumbled across your work here seeking reinforcement for a recent tube purchase.  1974 6n23P single wire silver shields from that seller in Ukraine.  Seems I may have made a bad purchase decision.  BTW, when I inquired about 1975's, an auction appeared and they sent me a note.


----------



## rb2013

Another awesome 6922 tube hybrid HP amp - the Audeze 'The King'  Sweet!  the  HG's should sound mighty good in this baby!
  

  
Features 
Dual ¼” unbalanced jacks
True SPL power meters calibrated for specific headphones
Clipping and overload indicators
RCA signal inputs
XLR inputs (converted internally to unbalanced)
Filtered and fused AC power module
110/220V AC voltage selector
Machined aluminum chasis
Shock absorbing feet

 Package Includes 
6-ft AC power cord

 Tube Complement 
*Stock:* E88CC, matched pair
*Compatible:* 6DJ8 and variants including 6922, 7308, 7DJ8, ECC88, 6H23

 Specifications 
Output Power6W into 20 ohms load with less than 0.1% THDFrequency Response10Hz-100KHz, -0.1dBTotal Harmonic DistortionLess than 0.1%, 20Hz-20KHz, full outputSNR-120dB, A weightedOutput impedance0.3 ohmsInput impedance10k ohmsPower requirement110-120V AC, 50/60Hz; 220-240V AC, 50/60Hz, externally switchablePower consumption30W maximumDimensions300 mm x 110 mm x 325 mmWeight9 kg


----------



## shultzee

rb2013 said:


> Another awesome 6922 tube hybrid HP amp - the Audeze 'The King'  Sweet!  the  HG's should sound mighty good in this baby!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Looks good but I don't know why they didn't bother making it balanced also.


----------



## rb2013

Edit


----------



## rnros

rb2013 said:


> The 6n1p is compatible with the original Vallhalla and Lyr (which use AC heaters) - but not the Val2 or Lyr2 (DC heaters).
> 
> Cheers!


 
  
 Actually, the Val2 still uses the 6N1P. Schiit supplies the 6N1P as the stock tube.


----------



## rb2013

rnros said:


> Actually, the Val2 still uses the 6N1P. Schiit supplies the 6N1P as the stock tube.


 

 Yes you are correct - only the MJ2 and Lyr2 can not run the 6N1P.  Thanks for the correction.
  
 Good to hear - anyone want to try some vintage Russian 6N1P's?  I have 75, 74, 72, 66, etc... NevZ and Voskohod.


----------



## rb2013

shultzee said:


> Looks good but I don't know why they didn't bother making it balanced also.


 

 I agree - I guess the HEK doesn't like balanced?  I think the LCD 2,3,4 do...


----------



## yangian

Hi, Guys, I have a question, hope someone could help me out.
 I have a amplifier using 2x5670 to drive 6080. I know 5670 could be substituded by 6922. However, I just found 6922s are much expensive than 5670. I search online and I only see a site claimed 5670 is good enough, 6922s are not much better.
 So I wonder anyone has experience of both types of tubes and how much improvement of 6922 to 5670.
 Thanks in advance!


----------



## B-Dawk20

http://www.upscaleaudio.com/6922-6dj8-7308-pcc88/telefunken-e88cc-6922/


Is this the same tube the topic creator reviewed? Thinking about buying it for the Lyr 2...


----------



## rnros

b-dawk20 said:


> http://www.upscaleaudio.com/6922-6dj8-7308-pcc88/telefunken-e88cc-6922/
> 
> Is this the same tube the topic creator reviewed? Thinking about buying it for the Lyr 2...





Yes, included in the original 17 tube line-up. Nice tube.


----------



## B-Dawk20

Okay I bought it! Hoping to get more out of my Lyr 2 before thinking about buying a new amp.


----------



## rnros

My first pair were used. I liked those so much, I bought a new back-up pair. Then when more tube amps came in, well you know.
 Not saying it's my favorite all-time tube, but it is in the top grouping for me. Great benchmark tube. Glad I have them.
 Plus, it will move along with you when you upgrade to the next 6922 amp. But it is a beauty for the Lyr2.


----------



## rb2013

b-dawk20 said:


> http://www.upscaleaudio.com/6922-6dj8-7308-pcc88/telefunken-e88cc-6922/
> 
> 
> Is this the same tube the topic creator reviewed? Thinking about buying it for the Lyr 2...


 
 Yes!  They are very, very nice.  But for the same money you can get a nice pair of the much better Tele E188CC Ulm's.
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/E188CC-MATCHED-PAIR-LOT-OF-2-TELEFUNKEN-GERMANY-Hi-Fi-TUBES-7308-CV4108-CCa-/252289281589?ha
  
 Or for less money the El-Supremeo HG '75 Relfektors.
  
 Good luck!


rnros said:


> My first pair were used. I liked those so much, I bought a new back-up pair. Then when more tube amps came in, well you know.
> Not saying it's my favorite all-time tube, but it is in the top grouping for me. Great benchmark tube. Glad I have them.
> Plus, it will move along with you when you upgrade to the next 6922 amp. But it is a beauty for the Lyr2.


 
 Yes I see more and more new top HP amps using the 6922 these days - like the Audeze 'The King' and this one:
  
 Class A - tubed Hybrid Audio Technica AT- HA5050H $6000
 http://www.audio-technica.com.hk/index.php?op=productdetails&pid=996&cid=22&sid=1&modelId=AT-HA5050H&lang=eng


----------



## rnros

_*But for the same money you can get a nice pair of the much better Tele E188CC Ulm's.*_
  
_*http://www.ebay.com/itm/E188CC-MATCHED-PAIR-LOT-OF-2-TELEFUNKEN-GERMANY-Hi-Fi-TUBES-7308-CV4108-CCa-/252289281589?ha*_
  
  
 Saw those. That eBay seller from Bulgaria usually has these ranging from ~$350 to $650 depending on matching. Based on his feedback numbers he seems to be a reliable seller.
  
 Yes, already a fan of the '74/'75 6N23P SWGP Reflectors. Thanks to *rb2013 *for the introduction to these and several nicely matched pairs.


----------



## rb2013

rnros said:


> _*But for the same money you can get a nice pair of the much better Tele E188CC Ulm's.*_
> 
> _*http://www.ebay.com/itm/E188CC-MATCHED-PAIR-LOT-OF-2-TELEFUNKEN-GERMANY-Hi-Fi-TUBES-7308-CV4108-CCa-/252289281589?ha*_
> 
> ...


 

 Great to hear!  Upscale has raised their prices on the Tele E88CC's - they are exorbitant at the price they are charging  IMHO.
  
 Brent Jesse has the Tele Ulm E188CC's for $425 - he is very reputable as a tube dealer.  By the time you pay Upscale for the Platinum matching the E88CC are $378.  You can find nice early 60's Seimens CCa's gray shields as well on Ebay for about the same money.
  
 http://www.audiotubes.com/6dj8.htm


----------



## Thenewguy007

rb2013 said:


> The -EB's are completely different design - using a dual dimpled plate getter post.  '74 or '78 Mediocre at best. The '74 and '75 6n23p Reflektor's are very rare and have a single wire getter post.


 
  
 Are there any pictures showing the difference between them?
  
 Seems easy to get scammed by buying the wrong ones.


----------



## rb2013

thenewguy007 said:


> Are there any pictures showing the difference between them?
> 
> Seems easy to get scammed by buying the wrong ones.


 

 Yes it is as they go by the same yr and description.  Here you go:



 The common and inferior dimpled dual plate getter version above.
  
 Good Luck!
  
 The -Ev pr -Eb use a halo getter vs the inverted flying saucer for the 6N23P


----------



## rb2013

yangian said:


> Hi, Guys, I have a question, hope someone could help me out.
> I have a amplifier using 2x5670 to drive 6080. I know 5670 could be substituded by 6922. However, I just found 6922s are much expensive than 5670. I search online and I only see a site claimed 5670 is good enough, 6922s are not much better.
> So I wonder anyone has experience of both types of tubes and how much improvement of 6922 to 5670.
> Thanks in advance!


 

 The issue is the pinouts - they are different - but the creative folks at iFi have come up with an adapter fitted to one of the best of the NOS 5670's - the GE JAN-5670W (JAN stands for Joint-Army-Navy).
  


> From NOS General Electric 5670 tube/valve
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Anybody try these iFi's?
  
 http://ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/accessory-nos-6922-2/


----------



## yangian

rb2013 said:


> The issue is the pinouts - they are different - but the creative folks at iFi have come up with an adapter fitted to one of the best of the NOS 5670's - the GE JAN-5670W (JAN stands for Joint-Army-Navy).
> 
> 
> Anybody try these iFi's?
> ...


 
 Thank you for the information!


----------



## B-Dawk20

My tubes should be here tomorrow! Super excited.


----------



## Thenewguy007

Any tube recommendations that won't break the bank & have good warm musical sound with strong bass?
 Something to tame treble & give more bottom end?
  
 Currently using a Electro Harmonix 6922.


----------



## thecrow

thenewguy007 said:


> Any tube recommendations that won't break the bank & have good warm musical sound with strong bass?
> Something to tame treble & give more bottom end?
> 
> Currently using aElectro Harmonix 6922.


I wouldn't say they are massive on the bass but smooth, musical and slightly warm with slightly rolled treble are the Amperex bugle boys 6dj8. 

My power tubes provide the bass/punch. The bugle boys just keeps everything in check and the treble under control for my hd800s.


----------



## rb2013

thenewguy007 said:


> Any tube recommendations that won't break the bank & have good warm musical sound with strong bass?
> Something to tame treble & give more bottom end?
> 
> Currently using a Electro Harmonix 6922.


 
 Amperex Orange Globes (around $40/pr) or Bugle Boys ($50-$60/pr) - in the Russian camp the '74 Voskhod 6N23P Gray shields - ($29/pr) or the '74 Reflektor SWGP Gray 6N23P ($80/pr).  All a major step up over the new production EH's or JJ's.
  
 Good Luck!
  


thecrow said:


> I wouldn't say they are massive on the bass but smooth, musical and slightly warm with slightly rolled treble are the Amperex bugle boys 6dj8.
> 
> My power tubes provide the bass/punch. The bugle boys just keeps everything in check and the treble under control for my hd800s.


 
 Agree.  Just to my ears the BB are a bit lacking in detail and transparency for the equiv  money 6N23p's.


----------



## rnros

> Agree.  Just to my ears the BB are a bit lacking in detail and transparency for the equiv  money 6N23p's.


 
 +1


----------



## thecrow

.


----------



## B-Dawk20

Gonna give my system a quick listen first and then finally put the Telefunken E88CC in! The question is LCD-2 first, or HD650....


----------



## Thenewguy007

I read some conflicting reports on the Amperex Orange Globes vs Bugle Boys on which one is brighter & which one is warmer.
  
 I'm looking for lush, liquid, SMOOTH sound over a analytical, brighter & accurate sound.
 More emphasis on bottom end rather than top end.
  
 Preferably a lower gain as well, so I can turn the volume knob at higher levels.
  
  
 I actually do have the '74 Voskhod 6N23P Gray shields & while they are fantastic in the Woo 2, they are a bit too bright & revealing in my other tube amp.
 I'm using the HD800 headphone, which are a tad bright themselves. So I'm looking something to tame it.


----------



## thecrow

thenewguy007 said:


> I read some conflicting reports on the Amperex Orange Globes vs Bugle Boys on which one is brighter & which one is warmer.
> 
> I'm looking for lush, liquid, SMOOTH sound over a analytical, brighter & accurate sound.
> More emphasis on bottom end rather than top end.
> ...


I haven't heard the orange globes but I do have 6922 amperex PQs and bugle boys. The bugle boys are a little warmer and a bit of edge taken off the highs (definitely). And as mentioned earlier they do lose a little detail. But a touch of detail lost (for me) is okay for the edge taken off. 

I use the bugle boys with my Gec 6as7g and the 6922 PQs for my other power tubes that already have a bit more warmth. 

Also have a look on "joes tube lore" if you haven't. Just google it. It seems to be an accurate guide for the more popular tubes.


----------



## thecrow

Not also grab the cheap ones in the classifieds are go from there. That's how I bought my bugle boys


----------



## B-Dawk20

Hm, seems like whenever I plug something into my Lyr 2 now with this tubs, they make an odd hiss sound and then it dies down. Is this normal?


----------



## rnros

b-dawk20 said:


> Hm, seems like whenever I plug something into my Lyr 2 now with this tubs, they make an odd hiss sound and then it dies down. Is this normal?


 

 Hiss or ringing? High frequency ringing could sound like a hiss. Not normal for all tubes but for a percentage of tubes, it happens. Typically it fades after the initial ring.
 Tap the tubes lightly with a pencil eraser or finger nail, does it happen again? Ringing usually happens when you tap the tube or the amp or make a connection. One tube or both? Does channel switch when you switch tubes?
  
 Give the tubes some burn time anyway to settle in, at least 24 hrs, that's not full burn, just a start.
 If it's not ringing, just low level noise, it can clear up sometimes with time. Ringing will usually remain. I have several tube sets with minor ringing, but the tubes sound great and I use them.
  
 Where did you purchase the tubes?


----------



## B-Dawk20

rnros said:


> Hiss or ringing? High frequency ringing could sound like a hiss. Not normal for all tubes but for a percentage of tubes, it happens. Typically it fades after the initial ring.
> Tap the tubes lightly with a pencil eraser or finger nail, does it happen again? Ringing usually happens when you tap the tube or the amp or make a connection. One tube or both? Does channel switch when you switch tubes?
> 
> Give the tubes some burn time anyway to settle in, at least 24 hrs, that's not full burn, just a start.
> ...


 

  
 It's not really a pure ring that you'd hear from a bell or hitting glass. It's like a high pitched hiss really. It starts after full connection to the amp and within a second fully diminishes and the amp is dead silent through the volume pot, sans the dangerous levels of volume on high gain and dead silent through the whole pot on low gain. This only happens in the left channel.  It does not happen when I turn the amp on, but I wasn't willing to cool the tubes off for more than 10 minutes to cool off. Oh and I bought them from Upscaleaudio


----------



## shultzee

b-dawk20 said:


> rnros said:
> 
> 
> > Hiss or ringing? High frequency ringing could sound like a hiss. Not normal for all tubes but for a percentage of tubes, it happens. Typically it fades after the initial ring.
> ...


 
 Switch the tubes  and see if the noise switch's to the right channel to narrow it down.    Upscale is legit and I know they test their tubes.


----------



## B-Dawk20

Ok I will. Oh and I confirmed it also does the noise when turning the gain from low to high and when the amp is powered down


----------



## B-Dawk20

Yep, it switched sides. It's not as bad on this side though....or it could be me not remembering. Regardless, it's definitely just one of the tubes causing the issue, if you can call it an issue. Like I said before, the tubes sound good and there is no hissing or anything otherwise. It just comes when I turn the gain from low to high, when the amp powers down, and when I plug a headphone in.


----------



## shultzee

b-dawk20 said:


> Yep, it switched sides. It's not as bad on this side though....or it could be me not remembering. Regardless, it's definitely just one of the tubes causing the issue, if you can call it an issue. Like I said before, the tubes sound good and there is no hissing or anything otherwise. It just comes when I turn the gain from low to high, when the amp powers down, and when I plug a headphone in.


 

 I would ask Upscale about it.  Glad its not the amp.


----------



## B-Dawk20

shultzee said:


> I would ask Upscale about it.  Glad its not the amp.


 
  
 I probably will. Regardless, they work well and they sound really good, but definitely could use some burn-in time I think. We'll see how it goes.


----------



## rb2013

thenewguy007 said:


> I read some conflicting reports on the Amperex Orange Globes vs Bugle Boys on which one is brighter & which one is warmer.
> 
> I'm looking for lush, liquid, SMOOTH sound over a analytical, brighter & accurate sound.
> More emphasis on bottom end rather than top end.
> ...


 
 Just keep in mind the '74 Voskhods are $40/pr tubes - and no where near the best of the 6N23P's.  Here was my ranking of the Voskhods:


> All Voskhod Rockets 6n23p Kaluga factory:
> 
> #1 1975 Gray Shields - Supreme detail, coupled with this magical flow or liquidity to the music...just draws you in.  I try to read while listening to my headphones.  These just make you drop the book and turn the volume up.  Sit back and enjoy the ride as they sweep you away.  Rich textured tone, deep extended tight bass...Who said the HD800 have wimpy bass!  Not with these.  Sound stage - surround sound, reflected sounds actually project behind you!  As well as wall to wall and 30 ft deep in front, with tons of air blooming from each instrument.  The effect enhanced by closing your eyes.  I did this last night...for 4 hours!  Dead quite, zero floor noise, the incredible details just project from inky blackness...you really notice this at the end of songs as they fade into this deep black silence.  The next track re-emerging, building, as you forget how high you've set the volume!  Never harsh or brittle - and here is the magic, even at higher volume levels.  Levels that would have you diving, on most other non-Super V-R tubes, to turn down as the etch becomes annoying.
> With the sweet nature of these tubes, it allows you to add this additional volume, the sound becomes enveloping.  You're really projected into a different venue.  What the high end headphone experience is all about!
> ...


 
  The best of the Voskhods -the '75 Gray only ranked only #9 in the best of shootout.  Not sayin g for $30-$40 the '74 Voskhods aren't good  - but hard to compare with tubes costing $200 to $280/pr like the BB's. For that kind of money you can get a pristine pair of HG's.
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/BUGLE-BOY-6DJ8-ECC88-6922-AMPEREX-MATCHED-PAIR-TUBES-1961-AMPLITREX-PROOF-L-K-/291509942279?hash=item43df58b807:g:EAkAAOSw5VFWN3Ib
  


> *Reflektor Holy Grail '75 6N23P SWGP Silver Shields*121.7*Siemens Cca Gray Shield '63s*117.8*Siemen Cca Gray Shield '65s*117.5*Telefunken Ulm E188CC '60s*117.3*Reflektor '74 6N23P SWGP Silver Shields*116.1*Amperex PW D Getter*115.2*Philips Miniwatt SQ E188CC Herleen Halo Getter VR9 '64*114.2*Amperex USN-CEP 7308 White '65 VR5*113.7*Voskhod '75 6N23P Gray Shield SWGP*111.3*Amperex 7308 Green Print '68*109.1*Siemens E88CC '60s Gray*107.6*Telefunken Ulm E88CC '60s*107.5*Reflektor 6N23P '65 Dual Straight Wire Getter*106.8*Valvo Herleen E88CC '67 Large Halo Getter*106.3*Nevz 6N1P-E '66 *105.3*Siemens E88CC '70s Silver*100.0


 
  
 Quote:


rnros said:


> Hiss or ringing? High frequency ringing could sound like a hiss. Not normal for all tubes but for a percentage of tubes, it happens. Typically it fades after the initial ring.
> Tap the tubes lightly with a pencil eraser or finger nail, does it happen again? Ringing usually happens when you tap the tube or the amp or make a connection. One tube or both? Does channel switch when you switch tubes?
> 
> Give the tubes some burn time anyway to settle in, at least 24 hrs, that's not full burn, just a start.
> ...


 
 You are right sometimes this kind of noise will go away.


----------



## rnros

b-dawk20 said:


> It's not really a pure ring that you'd hear from a bell or hitting glass. It's like a high pitched hiss really. It starts after full connection to the amp and within a second fully diminishes and the amp is dead silent through the volume pot, sans the dangerous levels of volume on high gain and dead silent through the whole pot on low gain. This only happens in the left channel.  It does not happen when I turn the amp on, but I wasn't willing to cool the tubes off for more than 10 minutes to cool off. Oh and I bought them from Upscaleaudio


 

 It's not a ring like a bell or glass but rather a high pitch "Ting" that fades long or short. Upscaleaudio actually mentions this with some tube selections such as the Siemens E88CC: _"...so if you hear a slight "TING!" when you flip switches or tap your preamp don't worry... it's normal." _
  
 Bottomline, it's an expensive tube set and you want to hear good sound, amazing sound, and... feel good about the purchase!
 Keep burning and listening but if it's a distraction or something you know you don't want to live with, go on record with Upscaleaudio now. Kevin is likely to tell you to burn for a while and get back to him. It's also important to Upscale that you are satisfied with the purchase. BTW, if this a Platinum match pair, I would be much less tolerant of accepting anything that is annoying. You are paying top dollar for the assurance of top quality.
  
 Trust your ears  I see you're feeding the Lyr2 with a GMB from USB, if the USB is clean and the recordings are good quality, you should have amazing sound coming from these tubes.


----------



## Thenewguy007

Could someone help me identify this 6922 tube?
 The branding is International C Servicemaster Germany. I searched & looks like that company rebrands random tubes, but doesn't make them.
  
 http://i.imgur.com/SBf22bb.jpg
 http://i.imgur.com/xfORzr0.jpg
 http://i.imgur.com/3diI3Z2.jpg
 http://i.imgur.com/gsnnCdL.jpg
  
  
 Look familiar to anyone?


----------



## kolkoo

Check this Voskhod rebrand out - http://www.ebay.com/itm/222081870444  Gold pins . I think the only other Gold pins 6N23P rebrand I've seen is Zaerix. There are many others non-gold pins ofc like Zais, Giant Electronics Brand, Amperex and more, but still rarely you see a gold pinned 6N23P (probably just gold plated).


----------



## rb2013

I have rebranded Voskhods to Amperex, Westinghouse, Mullard, etc in my collection.
  
 Unfortunately they look to be the common variety


----------



## asgeir101

Hi all,
  
 I just started listening to a single tube of this type: http://www.ebay.com/itm/222068607235?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT in my liquid crimson. Would I be correct in assuming that it is similar to the Vokshod 75 with grey shield?
  
 Regardless I am blown away, and its only had about 5 hours on it. Previously I had a telefunkeln 1966 E88CC in the amplifier, but this one seems considerably more detailed with greater bass and "flow". Its hard to concentrate when you have music in your ears in this setup. 
  
 best,
  
 Ásgeir


----------



## rb2013

asgeir101 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I just started listening to a single tube of this type: http://www.ebay.com/itm/222068607235?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT in my liquid crimson. Would I be correct in assuming that it is similar to the Vokshod 75 with grey shield?
> 
> ...


 

 It's a 1970's Voskhod gray - but no telling which year.  The sound quality varies greatly between the 1970 years - the 1975 gray being the best of the group.
  
 The 6n23p Voskhods and SWGP Reflektors from the 70's have a family sound as you describe - with the best having the most detail, dynamics and bass - couple with a smooth musical presentation.
  
 Cheers!


----------



## kolkoo

rb2013 said:


> It's a 1970's Voskhod gray - but no telling which year.  The sound quality varies greatly between the 1970 years - the 1975 gray being the best of the group.
> 
> The 6n23p Voskhods and SWGP Reflektors from the 70's have a family sound as you describe - with the best having the most detail, dynamics and bass - couple with a smooth musical presentation.
> 
> Cheers!


 

 But it's also more than that  - made for export, nickel pins, perhaps better sounding (as I recall the UberHGs were using the same principle )!


----------



## asgeir101

kolkoo said:


> But it's also more than that  - made for export, nickel pins, perhaps better sounding (as I recall the UberHGs were using the same principle )!


 
  
 I haven´t head the reflektor's so I can't comment. The seller commented that he preferred them to the Reflektors from the same period which he had in his own collection. However he didn't have those for sale so YMMV


----------



## rb2013

kolkoo said:


> But it's also more than that  - made for export, nickel pins, perhaps better sounding (as I recall the UberHGs were using the same principle )!


 
 Yes that is true - I have yet to find another pair of the UberHG's the remaining pairs are staying in my collection. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 I do have a pair of nickel pins, Voskhod SWGP gray shields, labeled Amperex Orange Globes 6DJ8/ECC88 - available for sale.  I'll post in the classifieds.

  
  


asgeir101 said:


> I haven´t head the reflektor's so I can't comment. The seller commented that he preferred them to the Reflektors from the same period which he had in his own collection. However he didn't have those for sale so YMMV


 
 Well it depends on the which Reflektor 6n23p's - there are '74 and '75 dual dimpled getter versions that are super common and only mediocre sounding.


----------



## kolkoo

rb2013 said:


> Yes that is true - I have yet to find another pair of the UberHG's the remaining pairs are staying in my collection.


 
 I keep bugging Dragan about it (tubes.rs )!


----------



## rb2013

kolkoo said:


> I keep bugging Dragan about it (tubes.rs )!


 

 Yes he is not selling anymore - I did get about 6 pairs from him though.  I sold half of those to a friend


----------



## rb2013

edit


----------



## kolkoo

rb2013 said:


> Yes he is not selling anymore - I did get about 6 pairs from him though.  I sold half of those to a friend


 
 I wonder if the HGs I have with nickel pins from the US sound similar to the UberHGs... They do sound a bit different than the other steel pinned HGs I have... and are really strong, maybe if Dragan finds the rest of his HG stash then we'll know


----------



## asgeir101

The nickel pins seem to be working. The tube also measured 16.5/16.5 ma


----------



## kolkoo

asgeir101 said:


> The nickel pins seem to be working. The tube also measured 16.5/16.5 ma


 
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/291737781567
  
 I jumped on these - yeah no measurements but for 14$ I'll take the risk  Let's see how they test and sound compared to the HGs


----------



## rb2013

kolkoo said:


> http://www.ebay.com/itm/291737781567
> 
> I jumped on these - yeah no measurements but for 14$ I'll take the risk  Let's see how they test and sound compared to the HGs


 

 Yawn...


----------



## asgeir101

kolkoo said:


> I wonder if the HGs I have with nickel pins from the US sound similar to the UberHGs... They do sound a bit different than the other steel pinned HGs I have... and are really strong, maybe if Dragan finds the rest of his HG stash then we'll know




Sounds exciting. Seems like I need to buy more tubes just to be conversational on the subject of Russian tubes


----------



## rb2013

asgeir101 said:


> Sounds exciting. Seems like I need to buy more tubes just to be conversational on the subject of Russian tubes


 

 More the merrier - but if you use my rankings as a general guide you will save a lot of money and time.
  
 Good Luck


----------



## rb2013

Edit - wrong thread


----------



## asgeir101

rb2013 said:


> More the merrier - but if you use my rankings as a general guide you will save a lot of money and time.
> 
> Good Luck




Thanks  your advice and overview was very helpful


----------



## popthropologist

These just arrived to me today: http://www.ebay.com/itm/182141663666?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
  
 One hums uncontrollably at all volumes. Looks like I've been had!


----------



## rb2013

popthropologist said:


> These just arrived to me today: http://www.ebay.com/itm/182141663666?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
> 
> One hums uncontrollably at all volumes. Looks like I've been had!


Ebay Pirates...I try to warn folks


----------



## kolkoo

popthropologist said:


> These just arrived to me today: http://www.ebay.com/itm/182141663666?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
> 
> One hums uncontrollably at all volumes. Looks like I've been had!


 
 You have two options with this seller - he will allow you to return as far as I recall. Also about the hum I've had cases where the hum goes away after burn in - if the measurements given for these tubes are correct then they should have a lot of life. So it's entirely possible the hum/noise/whatever you have goes away with burnin.


----------



## popthropologist

kolkoo said:


> You have two options with this seller - he will allow you to return as far as I recall. Also about the hum I've had cases where the hum goes away after burn in - if the measurements given for these tubes are correct then they should have a lot of life. So it's entirely possible the hum/noise/whatever you have goes away with burnin.




That's encouraging, thanks. For burn in, I suppose I could leave the amp running with the tube while I'm out of the house--otherwise it would be a no-go actually listening to music because of how loud the hum is. 

The other tube in the pair seems in good shape, but its volume is noticeably lower than my '85 Reflektors that come standard in my Decware Torii Jr.


----------



## rb2013

popthropologist said:


> That's encouraging, thanks. For burn in, I suppose I could leave the amp running with the tube while I'm out of the house--otherwise it would be a no-go actually listening to music because of how loud the hum is.
> 
> The other tube in the pair seems in good shape, but its volume is noticeably lower than my '85 Reflektors that come standard in my Decware Torii Jr.


Those are different dual getter post tubes


----------



## asgeir101

popthropologist said:


> These just arrived to me today: http://www.ebay.com/itm/182141663666?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
> 
> One hums uncontrollably at all volumes. Looks like I've been had!




That really sucks!, but given the guys eBay rating he should help you out. I would at least give it a try

Best of luck


----------



## popthropologist

Quick update--the hum has decreased dramatically after letting it burn in for the past day. Fingers crossed that this trend continues...


----------



## rb2013

popthropologist said:


> Quick update--the hum has decreased dramatically after letting it burn in for the past day. Fingers crossed that this trend continues...


 

 Good to hear!
  
 If they don't work out I have a few extra select HG pairs I can sell.  They're matched and Lyr noise tested for noise and micro-phonics.
  
 PM me if interested.


----------



## TEH725

I have had good luck with that seller ('74s).  I bought from another Ukraine dealer and one of my '75s arrived DOA.  It took him some time to find a match, but he replaced it, no questions asked. 
  
 All in all, I have had good luck with the Russian/Urkaine sellers.  I'd contact them if it persists.


----------



## Thenazgul

Anyone experience with the Mullard E188CC's ? Might buy those to pair up with the lyr 2 and HD800s


----------



## rb2013

I see some folks ranking the Mullards (UK) the highest and the Russian (HG) low, the German CCa and the US (Amperex)  the lowest.  I just want to make a comment.
  
 This person must have a very bright or harsh system.  Or a low quality source.
  
 These tubes run from emphasizing warmth and liquidity (sacrificing detail, air and transparency)  - the UK and the Dutch tubes in this category.  I consider these tubes to be far from balanced and extremely euphonic.  In my refined system way to 'wooly' sounding.  They can help to mask or tame a very bright SS system or one with a harsh source.  They seem to mask detail that would present as edginess or etch.  Many like this uber euphonic sound - not for me though.
  
 The German Siemens and Telefunken emphasizing the opposite - air, transparency and detail (but not warm or lush).  Great on all tube system as they add air and transparency.  But need top quality equipment to sound smooth.  So these present also as not neutral.
  
 The top US and Russian tubes I have heard seem to be the best balanced.  The best of the US like the Amperex 7308 USN-CEP and the Amperex PQ White shield are my favorite Amperex's - I much prefer to the Pinched Waist Amperex 6DJ8/6922 or the Valvo Herleens.  They have many of the best qualities of both sides of the tonal balance.
  
 But it's the 'HG' 6N23P that are my absolute favorites - with a perfect (for me) rich natural tonal balanced.  Plenty of warmth, musicality and smoothness - but coupled with extraordinary detail and transparency.  Perfectly neutral in presentation.  Magic with my HD800/Moon Black Dragon V2 HPs.
  
 So every person will have their personal preferences.  What makes tube rolling so much fun!
  
 Cheers


----------



## TEH725

I have rolled the 6n23ps and the Mullards and have the same observations as above.  I am mostly a speaker listener though.
  
 I prefer the Mullards in my primary systems only because I am currently running full range drivers which are bright.
  
 I run 6n23p's in a second system that is more balanced.
  
 I took my '74 6n23p's and '75's to a friend's system which I consider a little warm and they worked wonders.  He bought a pair the next day.  Wonderful tubes.


----------



## rb2013

teh725 said:


> I have rolled the 6n23ps and the Mullards and have the same observations as above.  I am mostly a speaker listener though.
> 
> I prefer the Mullards in my primary systems only because I am currently running full range drivers which are bright.
> 
> ...


 

 Yes - exactly as I spoke of.  One of the many reasons I love tubes - that and the extraodinary sound staging and holographic presentation.
  
 Just with HPs - look at the range of tonal signatures - just from the HD800's to the LCD's


----------



## Thenazgul

rb2013 said:


> Yes - exactly as I spoke of.  One of the many reasons I love tubes - that and the extraodinary sound staging and holographic presentation.
> 
> Just with HPs - look at the range of tonal signatures - just from the HD800's to the LCD's


 
 I cant see many of those single-wire reflektors on ebay. Got any other shop to buy those? I prefer mint(new)-ones and matched.


----------



## rb2013

thenazgul said:


> I cant see many of those single-wire reflektors on ebay. Got any other shop to buy those? I prefer mint(new)-ones and matched.


 

 No sorry - I cannot vouch for any of these Ebay dealers.
 None screen for noise or microphonics
  
 I have a few spare pairs of the '75 HGs matched and tested is you need another pair.
  
 None of the '74s - I sold all those as the '75 s are mu favorites.
  
 PM me if interested.


----------



## Thenazgul

rb2013 said:


> No sorry - I cannot vouch for any of these Ebay dealers.
> None screen for noise or microphonics
> 
> I have a few spare pairs of the '75 HGs matched and tested is you need another pair.
> ...


 
 I'll keep that in mind for next month. Thanks! In exactly 8 days I am buying the Sennheisers HD800s first. Month after I am buying tubes and probably a double helix cable (the compliment 4 fusion edition)


----------



## rb2013

thenazgul said:


> I'll keep that in mind for next month. Thanks! In exactly 8 days I am buying the Sennheisers HD800s first. Month after I am buying tubes and probably a double helix cable (the compliment 4 fusion edition)


 

 Nice HPs!  Let me know how you like them.  I sold my HD800 in anticipation of these


----------



## Thenazgul

rb2013 said:


> Nice HPs!  Let me know how you like them.  I sold my HD800 in anticipation of these


 
 I will. Will order the 22th


----------



## rb2013

Here is a great example of Russian.Moldovain and esp Ukrainian ripoff Ebay dealers:
  
 Bought 10 of these:
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Matched-Pair-6N23P-ECC88-6922-6DJ7-Reflector-Audiophile-Dual-Triode-Tube-NOS-/112027244074?
  
 Showing '75 HGs got a box full of common dual getter posts - worthless.
  
 Now try sending back to Russia - no fun on that intl shipping & no tracking.  And they know it.


----------



## TEH725

I would have never trusted that price.   Also, don't say single wire getter.  I always ask questions before buying.


----------



## MWSVette

rb2013 said:


> Here is a great example of Russian.Moldovain and esp Ukrainian ripoff Ebay dealers:
> 
> Bought 10 of these:
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Matched-Pair-6N23P-ECC88-6922-6DJ7-Reflector-Audiophile-Dual-Triode-Tube-NOS-/112027244074?
> ...


 
 Thanks for the heads up Bob...


----------



## rb2013

teh725 said:


> I would have never trusted that price.   Also, don't say single wire getter.  I always ask questions before buying.


 

 Fellow I have over 100 Ebay 6n23p purchases - some 1000 tubes.  Don't need your advice.  I have bought many for that price - most test out like junk.
  
 The picture is misleading and these pirates get away with it  - not to mention the 50-60% fail rate on my testers if they even send you what they show.
  
 And try communicating the difference in a HG and a elcrapo dual post to a Russian!
  
 I've tried - they say Yah -and take your money.
  
 Buyer beware!


----------



## TEH725

Sorry, I didn't mean to offend.  I've had good conversations with them over such things.  They were always straight forward with me.


----------



## rb2013

teh725 said:


> Sorry, I didn't mean to offend.  I've had good conversations with them over such things.  They were always straight forward with me.


 

 So tell me what tester are you using?


----------



## TEH725

I have Steve Deckert test them for me. I don't recall what he has. I go there at least once a year and he tests whatever I bring.


----------



## rb2013

And all these tubes you buy from Russian and Ukrainian Ebay dealers test new?  I smell....


----------



## krumley7882

Wow!  This was a fantastic, comprehensive and enjoyable read.  Just wanted to say thanks for a great review *rb2013! *


----------



## rb2013

krumley7882 said:


> Wow!  This was a fantastic, comprehensive and enjoyable read.  Just wanted to say thanks for a great review *rb2013! *


Thanks!


----------



## Thenazgul

Valvo E188CC Red Label or Siemens E188cc? I cannot really find much details about the sound signature of the Valvo's.


----------



## kolkoo

thenazgul said:


> Valvo E188CC Red Label or Siemens E188cc? I cannot really find much details about the sound signature of the Valvo's.


 
 Valvo E188CC should be the same or nearly the same as the one reviewed here -> *Philips Miniwatt SQ E188CC Herleen Halo Getter VR9 '64*


----------



## Thenazgul

kolkoo said:


> Valvo E188CC should be the same or nearly the same as the one reviewed here -> *Philips Miniwatt SQ E188CC Herleen Halo Getter VR9 '64*


 
 In which range are the Siemens E188CC? Are they better than the Valvo's?


----------



## kolkoo

thenazgul said:


> In which range are the Siemens E188CC? Are they better than the Valvo's?


 
 I have not heard the E188CC Siemens personally, only Siemens of the E88CC variety.
 So it's hard to say what is better or not it varies from person to person. I have a Siemens E188CC pair on the way but it's not here yet.
  
 Edit: As for range I guess some people put them up there with Telefunken E188CC so around that range.


----------



## Thenazgul

kolkoo said:


> I have not heard the E188CC Siemens personally, only Siemens of the E88CC variety.
> So it's hard to say what is better or not it varies from person to person. I have a Siemens E188CC pair on the way but it's not here yet.
> 
> Edit: As for range I guess some people put them up there with Telefunken E188CC so around that range.


 
 So the Siemens are better than the Valvo's then?


----------



## kolkoo

thenazgul said:


> So the Siemens are better than the Valvo's then?


 

 They are definitely with different sound signatures. What is better is hard to say - they are more rare perhaps and more expensive, more sought after, why this is - could be just people overhyping stuff, could be that they are truly better. Hard to say without taking a listen yourself.


----------



## Thenazgul

kolkoo said:


> They are definitely with different sound signatures. What is better is hard to say - they are more rare perhaps and more expensive, more sought after, why this is - could be just people overhyping stuff, could be that they are truly better. Hard to say without taking a listen yourself.


 
 Yes, I would like to know the sound signature of both. I listen rock/metal mostly. Guess for that is a tight and accurate bass needed and a bit of warmth.


----------



## rb2013

thenazgul said:


> Valvo E188CC Red Label or Siemens E188cc? I cannot really find much details about the sound signature of the Valvo's.


 
  I prefer the Siemens - but both are at the extreme ends of tonal balance.  The Valvo to the euphonic side (tonally thicker than natural) - Siemens to the airy transparent side (a bit tonally thinner than neutral).
  
 But it comes down to your equipment and preferences.  So I would say - no one could tell you, which is better for you - you need to try them both and find the ones that work for you.
  
 For me the HG's are just the perfect balance tonally and the most natural sounding.
  
 Good luck


----------



## Kirkles

Genius, Thank you so much!
 Regards


----------



## Kirkles

Actually, this scares be a bit because I know I am going to have to start secretly buying tubes. Not only that but also hiding them so I don't get told off by my partner.
 Regards


----------



## Kirkles

Agreed. I used to sell to Russia. Approximately three quarters of stock was always reported as not being received. Stopped in the end. Oh, Italy was a pain too (
 Regards


----------



## Kirkles

Thank you. I fear this kind of knowledge is slowly being lost. It's only these ind of groups and sharing that keep t going.
 Regards


----------



## Thenazgul

Could someone check for me if these are legit and not fakes?
  
 http://www.ebay.nl/itm/E88CC-TELEFUNKEN-NOS-BOXED-MATCHED-PAIR-VALVES-TUBES-/311283083356?hash=item4879eae85c:g:Gt8AAOSwBahU0041

 The seller seems to have a company (www.*langrex*.*co*.*uk) for a couple of years already.*
  
  
 Some pictures 
  

 This are the real ones.
  
  
 This are the ebay ones, the label looks exactly like the ones on tubeworldexpress:



 From bodem: I think this is a molded Diamond shape which is good right?





 Someone I know (dutch-guy) states that these eBay ones are fakes, it seems he could see it on the label. Tesla's with Telefunken print. I want to be sure. Could maybe someone with more knowledge and a better eye run a check?  Thank you in advance. In my eyes they are legit. But my eyes could be deceiving me. 
  
 http://forums.fender.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=65696 < information about fake Telefunkens with some example pictures.


----------



## Hansotek

thenazgul said:


> Could someone check for me if these are legit and not fakes?
> 
> http://www.ebay.nl/itm/E88CC-TELEFUNKEN-NOS-BOXED-MATCHED-PAIR-VALVES-TUBES-/311283083356?hash=item4879eae85c:g:Gt8AAOSwBahU0041
> 
> ...




I have an extremely legit pair of those same tubes for sale on the sale forum right now. They are gently used for a couple hundred hours, but stll have probably 95% of their life left in them. (Not to mention they are cryo-treated, which adds value, and matched at 1.5% - which is crazy, crazy close - I guarantee, even if those are legit, my pair is almost certainly going to be better.) 

Anyway, assuming you are in the CONUS, I'd match their $260 shipped price, you'd have them on Wednesday and you'd know they are the real deal. I don't usually go hawking my sale items on discussion forums, but I've purchased bunk tubes from eBay before and it sucks. Buying from Head-fi'ers who know their stuff and care about their reputation is always better. Anyway, here's a link to the classified. PM me if you are interested. 

http://www.head-fi.org/t/813324/telefunken-e88cc-ulm-germany-1968-matched-pair#post_12701549


----------



## Thenazgul

hansotek said:


> I have an extremely legit pair of those same tubes for sale on the sale forum right now. They are gently used for a couple hundred hours, but stll have probably 95% of their life left in them. (Not to mention they are cryo-treated, which adds value, and matched at 1.5% - which is crazy, crazy close - I guarantee, even if those are legit, my pair is almost certainly going to be better.)
> 
> Anyway, assuming you are in the CONUS, I'd match their $260 shipped price, you'd have them on Wednesday and you'd know they are the real deal. I don't usually go hawking my sale items on discussion forums, but I've purchased bunk tubes from eBay before and it sucks. Buying from Head-fi'ers who know their stuff and care about their reputation is always better. Anyway, here's a link to the classified. PM me if you are interested.
> 
> ...


 
 The ones you have from Upscale Audio looks fake to me, sorry to say that. This one I could see clearly the o = a 0 (zero) bigger than the rest. And the numbers are not alligned well. Difference between hand marked or machine marked.

 The ones I linked from eBay are harder to see, looks legit to me. I cannot spot a mistake. When I look at the pins on the eBay ones they are not completely straight. Also I see the square on the bodem on the eBay one (which is both good). The box (number) and used label on the eBay tubes I could not verify good enough on the pictures. I think only the Telefunken with vertical-datecode have a date-code on the box as well. But I can't do yet a water check for example. But yours is clearly easier to identify than the one on eBay . I did send two-mails to the seller and confront him and asked him to provide more information about the tubes (batch) and if he did know about being fake telefunken on the market. And if he could spot the difference.  I don't want to harm his reputation, neither I want to receive fake tubes. So I gave him a friendly warning and told him that a close friend (Tube-expert) will set his eye on them as well. 

 see here for example of the fakes:


  
 Just for your information: I did e-mail Upscale Audio Twice (about shipping internationally). Would pay for the extra costs etc.
 No response so far.


----------



## MWSVette

thenazgul said:


> The ones you have from Upscale Audio looks fake to me, sorry to say that. This one I could see clearly the o = a 0 (zero) bigger than the rest. And the numbers are not alligned well. Difference between hand marked or machine marked.
> 
> The ones I linked from eBay are harder to see, looks legit to me. I cannot spot a mistake. When I look at the pins on the eBay ones they are not completely straight. Also I see the square on the bodem on the eBay one (which is both good). The box (number) and used label on the eBay tubes I could not verify good enough on the pictures. I think only the Telefunken with vertical-datecode have a date-code on the box as well. But I can't do yet a water check for example. But yours is clearly easier to identify than the one on eBay . I did send two-mails to the seller and confront him and asked him to provide more information about the tubes (batch) and if he did know about being fake telefunken on the market. And if he could spot the difference.  I don't want to harm his reputation, neither I want to receive fake tubes. So I gave him a friendly warning and told him that a close friend (Tube-expert) will set his eye on them as well.
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 As far as Upscale Audio goes other than his prices are very high and that Kevin is somewhat full of himself.  His tubes are legit.  Most of his tubes are somewhat newer old stock from the mid late 70's and up.  Not the mid-sixties and earlier that most of us are looking for.  But he does match and test the tubes he sells.
  
 I find the advantage of dealing with a brick and mortar store is you have someone to hold accountable if the product is not as advertised.  This can be more difficult with Ebay sellers.
  
 And as far as Hansotek's tube looking fake.  From the photos I do not see anything that would lead me to think they are other than listed.  There are a very few people on this thread I believe can spot a fake from limited photos.  Most of them have far more tube rolling experience than you do at this point.  When on these threads may want to take care when calling out what you believe may be fake until you have a little more experience under your belt.


----------



## TK16

thenazgul said:


> The ones you have from Upscale Audio looks fake to me, sorry to say that. This one I could see clearly the o = a 0 (zero) bigger than the rest. And the numbers are not alligned well. Difference between hand marked or machine marked.
> 
> 
> The ones I linked from eBay are harder to see, looks legit to me. I cannot spot a mistake. When I look at the pins on the eBay ones they are not completely straight. Also I see the square on the bodem on the eBay one (which is both good). The box (number) and used label on the eBay tubes I could not verify good enough on the pictures. I think only the Telefunken with vertical-datecode have a date-code on the box as well. But I can't do yet a water check for example. But yours is clearly easier to identify than the one on eBay . I did send two-mails to the seller and confront him and asked him to provide more information about the tubes (batch) and if he did know about being fake telefunken on the market. And if he could spot the difference.  I don't want to harm his reputation, neither I want to receive fake tubes. So I gave him a friendly warning and told him that a close friend (Tube-expert) will set his eye on them as well.
> ...




I have made 3 successful trades here, 1 for a big ticket item without a hitch, I would not appreciate being called out on trading "fakes" with that tiny bit of info you posted and I'm sure the other headfier does not either. Now you injected doubt in a sale of likey real Telefunken E88CC.


----------



## Hansotek

thenazgul said:


> The ones you have from Upscale Audio looks fake to me, sorry to say that. This one I could see clearly the o = a 0 (zero) bigger than the rest. And the numbers are not alligned well. Difference between hand marked or machine marked.
> 
> 
> The ones I linked from eBay are harder to see, looks legit to me. I cannot spot a mistake. When I look at the pins on the eBay ones they are not completely straight. Also I see the square on the bodem on the eBay one (which is both good). The box (number) and used label on the eBay tubes I could not verify good enough on the pictures. I think only the Telefunken with vertical-datecode have a date-code on the box as well. But I can't do yet a water check for example. But yours is clearly easier to identify than the one on eBay . I did send two-mails to the seller and confront him and asked him to provide more information about the tubes (batch) and if he did know about being fake telefunken on the market. And if he could spot the difference.  I don't want to harm his reputation, neither I want to receive fake tubes. So I gave him a friendly warning and told him that a close friend (Tube-expert) will set his eye on them as well.
> ...




You are completely, 100%, unequivocally incorrect.


----------



## kolkoo

Can't say if Hansotek's tubes are real or not - but I recently got a pair that looks just like them - similar serial numbers too
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/182204279566
  
 And after looking at it it's real Telefunken. However it's certainly not E88CC as I while cleaning the pins with my usual process - isopropyl alcohol, then scrubbing with the metal cleaning brush from the kit and before treating with deoxit gold - some of the gold plating fell off.
 They sound identical to other pairs of real Teles that I own. They are probably ECC88 or PCC88.
 Take what you will from this


----------



## Thenazgul

mwsvette said:


> As far as Upscale Audio goes other than his prices are very high and that Kevin is somewhat full of himself.  His tubes are legit.  Most of his tubes are somewhat newer old stock from the mid late 70's and up.  Not the mid-sixties and earlier that most of us are looking for.  But he does match and test the tubes he sells.
> 
> I find the advantage of dealing with a brick and mortar store is you have someone to hold accountable if the product is not as advertised.  This can be more difficult with Ebay sellers.
> 
> And as far as Hansotek's tube looking fake.  From the photos I do not see anything that would lead me to think they are other than listed.  There are a very few people on this thread I believe can spot a fake from limited photos.  Most of them have far more tube rolling experience than you do at this point.  When on these threads may want to take care when calling out what you believe may be fake until you have a little more experience under your belt.


 
 You are right. I don't have much experience yet. I only see some posts going around on the internet about fake- Telefunken tubes and were to recognize them from.
 This dutch guy (where I had contact with) did mess a bit with my head and made me insecure. He linked a lot of information about those fake e88cc's tubes and called the tubes I bought on ebay from Langrex through the eBay-auction fake. 
  
 For what I know, Langrex exists for centuries and have a good reputation, with a lot of reviews , trusted ebay seller etc. I apologise. 
 Same with Upscale Audio. They have some good reputation as well. Although they still didn't respond on my e-mail . Hopefully they do in a couple of days


----------



## Hansotek

thenazgul said:


> You are right. I don't have much experience yet. I only see some posts going around on the internet about fake- Telefunken tubes and were to recognize them from.
> 
> This dutch guy (where I had contact with) did mess a bit with my head and made me insecure. He linked a lot of information about those fake e88cc's tubes and called the tubes I bought on ebay from Langrex through the eBay-auction fake.
> 
> ...




I think I'm the one to whom you owe the apology. Un-frickin-believable.


----------



## Thenazgul

hansotek said:


> I think I'm the one to whom you owe the apology. Un-frickin-believable.


 
 Yes, I do. Not only you but also to two companies. I sincerely apologize. It seems the source with the fake-tube examples can't be trusted completely then. 
 I am adult enough to admit my mistakes. Hopefully you could accept it ;(.


----------



## kolkoo

hansotek said:


> I think I'm the one to whom you owe the apology. Un-frickin-believable.



Nah c'mon there is no harm in reasonable doubt. Check out my previous post the tubes from upscale look a lot like mine even one of the codes is super similar. And mine are fak. Not fake telefunken but wfake e88cc. Still not what their print is saying ecc88 or pcc88. So get off this dudes case no harm in looking fotlr the truth


----------



## Thenazgul

kolkoo said:


> Nah c'mon there is no harm in reasonable doubt. Check out my previous post the tubes from upscale look a lot like mine even one of the codes is super similar. And mine are fak. Not fake telefunken but wfake e88cc. Still not what their print is saying ecc88 or pcc88. So get off this dudes case no harm in looking fotlr the truth


 
 Guess we all could admit that this whole vintage-tube thing is a bit risky. Sadly enough humans exploit it to get some fast cash. If people didn't copy paintings, tubes et, lie and deceive etc the world would look a lot better . A lot of pirates on Ebay from specific countries. It is like sailing through Tortugo (City/Pirates of the Carribbean).  Eminem wrote a song : Eminem - If I had.  Money is the root of all evil . best song he wrote (first album) he released. So much wisedom


----------



## Hansotek

thenazgul said:


> Yes, I do. Not only you but also to two companies. I sincerely apologize. It seems the source with the fake-tube examples can't be trusted completely then.
> 
> I am adult enough to admit my mistakes. Hopefully you could accept it ;(.




Thank you. I appreciate that, really. All is forgiven.


----------



## MWSVette

kolkoo said:


> Nah c'mon there is no harm in reasonable doubt. Check out my previous post the tubes from upscale look a lot like mine even one of the codes is super similar. And mine are fak. Not fake telefunken but wfake e88cc. Still not what their print is saying ecc88 or pcc88. So get off this dudes case no harm in looking fotlr the truth


 
  
 Reasonable doubt is one thing and perfectly fine.  Guessing with limited knowledge and experience then calling out someones classified listing as fake on an open forum is another. If there was concern that would have been better handled via PM. 
  
 As far as look like via limited photos is very tricky @Oskari and @gibosi are two of the few I trust to know different tube manufactures by photo of tube constuction alone.
  
 Did you buy some from Upscale and get fake tubes?   I have a couple sets from Upscale and they were just as described.  If you did then first you should return them for refund. As stated earlier Upscale has high prices but have been a reliable vendor.   If Upscale does not back the sale then do a charge-back with your cc company.  If you used Paypal you have six months.   
  
 The internet is a great tool but not always where one will find truth.


----------



## TK16

The seller already accepted an apology, maybe we should let it go.


----------



## kolkoo

Ok upscale audio aside I am 100% certain the teles I got from ebay here 
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/182204279566 are fake reprinted Tele ecc88 or pcc88. The gold plating comes off the pins with ease. The seller got them from european audio hifi store so he did not know about it. They test and sound amazing. But they are still fake printed e88cc. So if your tubes look like mine beware it might be the same case of forgery


----------



## TK16

kolkoo said:


> Ok upscale audio aside I am 100% certain the teles I got from ebay here
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/182204279566 are fake reprinted Tele ecc88 or pcc88. The gold plating comes off the pins with ease. The seller got them from european audio hifi store so he did not know about it. They test and sound amazing. But they are still fake printed e88cc. So if your tubes look like mine beware it might be the same case of forgery



How is the paint?, is it easy to take off or not removable?


----------



## kolkoo

Print is not completely white it's yellowish i have to check if it rubs off


----------



## Thenazgul

Does someone know a shop that sells the Mullard E188CC GB-version (Blue-Box). Not the RTC-France-version.
 It seems Upscale Audio sells them.  Yet they don't ship internationally. Well on their website I cannot select other countries than the US atleast.
 I did send them a e-mail with a question for international-shipping. But maybe someone else knows a shop that does, has those in bulk .
 Think i'd buy those end of august or so. I might like the warm-sound of the mullards. 

 I am kinda out of budget for this month. The Telefunken and DHC-cable


----------



## TK16

The RTC branded Mullard e188cc is made in the UK, it has an R code. Got 2 sets of them, they are definitely Mullard sounding.


----------



## MWSVette

thenazgul said:


> Does someone know a shop that sells the Mullard E188CC GB-version (Blue-Box). Not the RTC-France-version.
> It seems Upscale Audio sells them.  Yet they don't ship internationally. Well on their website I cannot select other countries than the US atleast.
> I did send them a e-mail with a question for international-shipping. But maybe someone else knows a shop that does, has those in bulk .
> Think i'd buy those end of august or so. I might like the warm-sound of the mullards.
> ...


 
  
  
 Take a look At Brent Jesse Recording and Supply.  He is another reliable vendor and very forthcoming with information and tube knowledge.  If he does not have what you want he will look for it.  Again vendors have a tendency charge more but are easier to deal with problems than the crap shoot that can be Ebay.
  
 http://www.audiotubes.com/6dj8.htm


----------



## Thenazgul

tk16 said:


> The RTC branded Mullard e188cc is made in the UK, it has an R code. Got 2 sets of them, they are definitely Mullard sounding.


 

*Quoted:*
_1) 6BZ7 - GE from Shiit (US?): dynamic, good separation but just plain, not musical. (good for source)_
_            - GE from Canada (ebay): better than the US version, fuller sounding and better separation. _
_             - Sylvania USA: As good as GE from Canada (have not audit enough to make good conclusion)_
  
_2) 6922 Philips JAN USA (green label and blue label): Sound similar to GE canada 6BZ7 but warmer sounding, more musical, little bit more detail._
  
_3) E88CC Mullard: tad better in all aspect than 6BZ7 especially the mid is sweet, but not as dynamic. Some pp may not like it as it really "soft" sounding compare to good dynamic tube._
  
_4) E188CC RTC (from Mullard but solid disk getter): Sound char is similar to E88CC mullard but more dynamic and better separation and depth (so called the 3D sounding here). I expect more from this tube but sadly, it's not the holy grill._
  
_5) E188CC Mullard: this is another steps better than the E188CC RTC. Better bass and separation, wide staging, full sounding, and the mid is airy/sweet. Take note this tube is not as "soft" as the usual Mullard, I can sense it has impact thus dynamic is not a issue._
  
_6) E88CC Philips miniwatt SQ: surprisingly it sound similar to the E188CC Mullard but at a lower price. construction is similar to E188CC Mullard as well._
  
_More tube to come....._

 Source : http://www.head-fi.org/t/549508/schiit-lyr-the-tube-rolling-thread/1665  (Mavwong)

 Maybe there is a difference between the RTC and Mullard version? Price difference is 100 vs 150 dollars (each).
  
 Think the RTC could be ordered from the tubestore (http://www.thetubestore.com/Tubes/6922-E88CC-Tube-Types/Mullard-E188CC-7308) as well. They ship international too. The other ones I cannot find apart from Upscale Audio that sell those.
  
 Interesting Upscale-Audio lowered the price : http://www.upscaleaudio.com/6922-6dj8-7308-pcc88/mullard-e188cc-7308/


----------



## TK16

You could do cheaper than that, ebay search RTC Mullard E188CC. See who delivers to your country, I got 1 set on auction for 90 usd and the other from euroclag on ebay for 119.95 usd, dont know if he delivers to your country though.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/E188CC-MATCHED-MULLARD-RTC-Dimple-Silver-Shield-Audio-PAIR-Tubes-7308-CV4108-/301959975492?hash=item464e379244:g:8fwAAOSwstxVMQnh#shpCntId
Best offer available.


----------



## Thenazgul

tk16 said:


> You could do cheaper than that, ebay search RTC Mullard E188CC. See who delivers to your country, I got 1 set on auction for 90 usd and the other from euroclag on ebay for 119.95 usd, dont know if he delivers to your country though.
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/E188CC-MATCHED-MULLARD-RTC-Dimple-Silver-Shield-Audio-PAIR-Tubes-7308-CV4108-/301959975492?hash=item464e379244:g:8fwAAOSwstxVMQnh#shpCntId
> Best offer available.


 
 That seller sadly doesn't deliver to the Netherlands ;P. Well I still have some time on those. No budget anymore till end of august.
 Yet the difference from Mullard E188CC (Blue-Box) and Mulldard E188CC RTC (made for France telecommunications) is kinda interesting information.
 Wondering if more people notice a difference between the two?


----------



## grizzlybeast

Man I am having a really tough time trying to figure out if I have the right stuff in my cart
  
 I was searching for the holy grail reflektors in the number one spot on the thread start but I found these
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-x-6N23P-6DJ8-ECC88-MATCHED-PAIR-REFLEKTOR-Single-Wire-1975-Silver-Shield-/172283912212?hash=item281cebe014:g:3UIAAOSwa-dWsodF
  
 is that what I am looking for?


----------



## spyder1

Those are the 75' Reflectors of the "6922 Tube Review." I have made purchases from JetParts, and they are Reputable Sellers.  You should make an offer first! rb2013 might have pairs of 75' Reflectors to sell, (US Seller) you can PM him.


----------



## spyder1

Are these 70's 6N23P Voskhod with gold plated pins? www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-Of-2-Zaerix-E88CC-CV2492-Power-Electron-Vacuum-Tube-NOS/272173215383?_trksid=p2045573.c100642.m3226&_trkparms=aid%3D555017%26algo%3DPL.CASSINI%26


----------



## grizzlybeast

spyder1 said:


> Those are the 75' Reflectors of the "6922 Tube Review." I have made purchases from JetParts, and they are Reputable Sellers.  You should make an offer first! rb2013 might have pairs of 75' Reflectors to sell, (US Seller) you can PM him.


 
 I just bought em. 
  
 didnt want to risk them selling out. though there may be a different pair up already.


----------



## rb2013

kirkles said:


> Agreed. I used to sell to Russia. Approximately three quarters of stock was always reported as not being received. Stopped in the end. Oh, Italy was a pain too (
> Regards


 
 They're scoundrels for sure - such a shame.  Maybe a reputable US or EU dealer will find a large batch and screen and match them.
  


kirkles said:


> Thank you. I fear this kind of knowledge is slowly being lost. It's only these ind of groups and sharing that keep t going.
> Regards


 
 Cheers!


----------



## grizzlybeast

rb2013 said:


> kirkles said:
> 
> 
> > Agreed. I used to sell to Russia. Approximately three quarters of stock was always reported as not being received. Stopped in the end. Oh, Italy was a pain too (
> ...


 
 http://www.ebay.com/usr/jetparts!?_trksid=p2047675.l2559
  
 Should I be worried about this seller?


----------



## rb2013

thenazgul said:


> Yes, I would like to know the sound signature of both. I listen rock/metal mostly. Guess for that is a tight and accurate bass needed and a bit of warmth.


 

 A tube you could look out for are the excellent Lorenz Stuttgart (NOT SEL!) PCC88 - the best are the rare triple mica versions.  But they are all very good.  They show up on Ebay from time to time.
  
 Warmish sounding but with excellent detail - at one time they where the rage on the old Lyr thread.
  
 Here are some photos.
  

 Triple Mica version
  
  

 Lorenz Stuttgart gray shield in the middle.
  

 Lorenz Stuttgart Fused Mica PCC88
  
  
 Here are four that sold for $60 recently - a steal.
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/4x-VINTAGE-LORENZ-PCC88-7DJ8-TUBES-RARE-TESTED-WITH-STRONG-EMISSIONS-/291805362286?hash=it


----------



## rb2013

thenazgul said:


> Could someone check for me if these are legit and not fakes?
> 
> http://www.ebay.nl/itm/E88CC-TELEFUNKEN-NOS-BOXED-MATCHED-PAIR-VALVES-TUBES-/311283083356?hash=item4879eae85c:g:Gt8AAOSwBahU0041
> 
> ...


 

 Must have a molded diamond on the bottom to be a real Tele.


----------



## rb2013

kolkoo said:


> Can't say if Hansotek's tubes are real or not - but I recently got a pair that looks just like them - similar serial numbers too
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/182204279566
> 
> ...


 

 Relabeling is an old trick in the shady side of the tube business.  It's more common with the CCa's - relabeled from std E88CC's.  But there is a chance that inexpensive Tele PCC88's could be relabeled E88CC's.  They would have the diamond bottom mold.
  
 With enough scrubbing the gold plating would come off any tube.  None were solid gold pins.
  
 Another reason I love the Russian tubes - they have near impermeable stenciled marking and those unique inverted saucer getters.


----------



## rb2013

thenazgul said:


> Yes, I do. Not only you but also to two companies. I sincerely apologize. It seems the source with the fake-tube examples can't be trusted completely then.
> I am adult enough to admit my mistakes. Hopefully you could accept it ;(.


 
 That is fair.
  


kolkoo said:


> Nah c'mon there is no harm in reasonable doubt. Check out my previous post the tubes from upscale look a lot like mine even one of the codes is super similar. And mine are fak. Not fake telefunken but wfake e88cc. Still not what their print is saying ecc88 or pcc88. So get off this dudes case no harm in looking fotlr the truth


 
 There are many fakes out there - buyer beware.
  
 Here are some photos of real Siemens CCa and the fakes:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/549508/schiit-lyr-the-tube-rolling-thread/3255#post_8397265
  
 Fake CCa:

  
 Real CCa:


----------



## rb2013

grizzlybeast said:


> Man I am having a really tough time trying to figure out if I have the right stuff in my cart
> 
> I was searching for the holy grail reflektors in the number one spot on the thread start but I found these
> 
> ...


 

 Yes and I have bought from that seller - the issue is he DOES NOT test for noise or microphonics and many I received from him were noisy and/or microphonic.
  
 Sending stuff back to the war torn Ukraine is not easy.  And you need to prove that it was received.
  
 $200/pr for a crap shoot is not advisable.


----------



## rb2013

spyder1 said:


> Are these 70's 6N23P Voskhod with gold plated pins? www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-Of-2-Zaerix-E88CC-CV2492-Power-Electron-Vacuum-Tube-NOS/272173215383?_trksid=p2045573.c100642.m3226&_trkparms=aid%3D555017%26algo%3DPL.CASSINI%26


 

 The gold plating was added by Zaerix - there is a huge difference in SQ between the different 1970's year with the Voskhods.
 Unfortunately Zaerix did not print the dates on them.
  
 $77 of a pr of who knows what date Voskhod gray shields is a bad gamble.  The gold plating does not effect the SQ - it was done for marketing purposes in Europe.
  
 They could '80s or any of the lower grade '70's.


----------



## rb2013

grizzlybeast said:


> http://www.ebay.com/usr/jetparts!?_trksid=p2047675.l2559
> 
> Should I be worried about this seller?


 

 I have bought many pairs from him - when his prices where way lower.  He does not test for noise or microphonics - esp on a sensitive HP amp like the Lyr.  So it's a crap shoot.
  
 If you get quiet tubes count your gamble as a win.
  
 At the prices he now charges - it's no longer an option for me to buy them from him then toss out 1/2 because of noise.  $200/pr is ridiculous.
 And good luck shipping back to Ukraine and proving it, to get the Ebay buyer protection.


----------



## grizzlybeast

rb2013 said:


> grizzlybeast said:
> 
> 
> > http://www.ebay.com/usr/jetparts!?_trksid=p2047675.l2559
> ...


 
 dang it.... 
  
 How much should they cost?
  
 I couldnt find it anywhere else. 
  
 they havent shipped yet. I probably should cancel. If you have a pair to sell PM me.


----------



## TK16

Anybody charging that much is a rip off, think I got a pair from that seller for $150, Sarmat1968 on ebay sells Russian tubes, think he charges around $80 a set, he has 74 SWGP silver shield Reflektors for $78. Send him a message he may have 75 Reflektors.


----------



## spyder1

rb2013 said:


> The gold plating was added by Zaerix - there is a huge difference in SQ between the different 1970's year with the Voskhods.
> Unfortunately Zaerix did not print the dates on them.
> 
> $77 of a pr of who knows what date Voskhod gray shields is a bad gamble.  The gold plating does not effect the SQ - it was done for marketing purposes in Europe.
> ...


 
  
 Thanks Bob, you are the 6N23P EXPERT!


----------



## rb2013

grizzlybeast said:


> dang it....
> 
> How much should they cost?
> 
> ...


 

 I used to buy them from him and other sellers on Ebay - then test and match them - running the pairs on my Lyr HP amp to check for noise and microphonics.  Occasionally I would sell some of the extra pairs I had.  This is what is left over from doing this for a few years:

  
 But I have been burned the last few purchases - paying over $100/pr for some of them.  Even from Ebay dealers who in the past had sent at least some decent HG's, did not get ONE single good HG after spending $300!
  
 So I have given up trying.
  
 I would not pay more then $100/pr with the hope that at least you have a 50/50 chance of getting a pristine pair.
  
 Do you feel lucky?

  
  
 Fortunately these Russian tubes are very hearty and last a long time (not like some of the Euro tubes I've had) and I have a small supply to last many years.
  
 I'd look for a good pair of Tele E188CC's or Siemens CCa gray shields (1960's - NOT the silver shield 1970's!) - if you see my ratings they are neck and neck with the HG's.  Although I do prefer them.
  
 I'm kicking myself for not buying those Lorenz Stuttgarts for $60.  the 7dj8/PCC88 will work in some Schiit amps but not all.  Lyr1 yes - Lyr2 - no.
  
 I've tried many other Tele, Amperex, Siemens PCC88's and they all sucked.


----------



## rb2013

tk16 said:


> Anybody charging that much is a rip off, think I got a pair from that seller for $150, Sarmat1968 on ebay sells Russian tubes, think he charges around $80 a set, he has 74 SWGP silver shield Reflektors for $78. Send him a message he may have 75 Reflektors.


 

 He's the worst.  Blocked  me from his auctions after I left negative feedbback on Ebay.  Ebay just refunded and removed the feedback from his account.
  
 I'd avoid hi like the plague.  It helps if you have a tube tester - the tubes these guys sell are 'pulls' from old Russian equipment and most time one of the two sections are weak.  The tube will work work, but will lack some of the focus, detail and tone of properly matched pairs.
  
 Too bad as these mis matched pairs do give the HGs a bad reputation.


----------



## grizzlybeast

Thanks for the help!!!
  
 Well we will see. I have a Trafomatic Head 2 which has some GOLD LIONS in them right now. Also some AMPEREX USN-CEP 6922, 6N1P (6H1N) VOSKHOD ROCKET 1978
  
  
 Maybe the stock of those tubes are drying up and so the sellers are having a tough time making the demand. In principle if they are 200/pr on ebay but perform better than the Siemens ccas which are only found right now ~350/pr then I still have better sound for the money. 
  
 If I can't cancel I better hope and see. I don't know how to tell if tubes are matched and I guess I can only use my ears to see if I hear microphonics.


----------



## spyder1

grizzlybeast said:


> Thanks for the help!!!
> 
> Well we will see. I have a Trafomatic Head 2 which has some GOLD LIONS in them right now. Also some AMPEREX USN-CEP 6922, 6N1P (6H1N) VOSKHOD ROCKET 1978
> 
> ...


 
  
 JetParts has sold me great matched pairs (68' Tesla's, 74' Reflector). I bought 3 great matched pairs of 6N23P, including 75' Reflectors from rb2013. I consider myself lucky!


----------



## grizzlybeast

My only question is why do they have 100% feedback if buying those tubes were hit or miss. I was able to cancel  so I will just be on the look out for a properly priced pair and for now be good on #7 of the list.


----------



## rb2013

grizzlybeast said:


> Thanks for the help!!!
> 
> Well we will see. I have a Trafomatic Head 2 which has some GOLD LIONS in them right now. Also some AMPEREX USN-CEP 6922, 6N1P (6H1N) VOSKHOD ROCKET 1978
> 
> ...


 

 Well you are right there on the relative SQ versus dollar - and the HG's do something I've not heard from any other 6992 equiv tube - and this may just be me - but they have this kind of magical flow factor.  In every piece of equipment I have used them, they make a significant upgrade (right now a DAC, two amps and the Lyr HP amp).
  
 The microphonic issue is very device dependent.  In my DAC, it's almost impervious to microphonics, my Lyr is super sensitive.  My amps very, very slightly sensitive.  So I've kept the well matched slightly microphonic HG pairs for use there.


----------



## rb2013

spyder1 said:


> JetParts has sold me great matched pairs (68' Tesla's, 74' Reflector). I bought 3 great matched pairs of 6N23P, including 75' Reflectors from rb2013. I consider myself lucky!


 

 Start buying lottery tickets!


----------



## rb2013

grizzlybeast said:


> My only question is why do they have 100% feedback if buying those tubes were hit or miss. I was able to cancel  so I will just be on the look out for a properly priced pair and for now be good on #7 of the list.


 

 So it works like this on Ebay feedback.  If they refund you the feedback gets deleted.  The sellers know most folks don't have tube testers, and who's to know the SQ difference unless you have heard tightly matched pairs versus mismatched pairs (or sections with in a tube).
  
 So they get a pass on most sales - as the buyers are ignorant of what they are getting.
  
 And a seller like jetparts does sell good pairs (that is not noisey or microphonic), but it's hit or miss.  So they just refund the buyer and away they go.
  
 Ebay protects it's major sellers this way.
  
 It's much different buying from a seller like Brent Jesse, Tubeworld, or Upscale Audio.


----------



## rb2013

Anybody try these yet?  They look very interesting.
  
 http://ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/accessory-nos-6922-2/
  

Stemming from the R&D work into the development of the micro iTUBE, the NOS6922 matched tube pair is another ‘atypical’ product from iFi that significantly improves the audio experience. For any tube/valve audio product from amplifiers to CD players that use the common 6922 tube/valve, the premium NOS 6922 matched pair set is a straight ‘drop-in’ replacement.*
*What is it?*
The NOS 6922 tube/valve matched pair is a higher-quality replacement set for just about every audio component that currently uses the 6922.
From NOS General Electric 5670 tube/valve






The 6922 tube/valve is one of the most famous ‘dual triode’ designs and is ubiquitous. It has and is still, used in many tube/valve audio products from CD players to headphone amplifiers.
First introduced by Western Electric in 1946 with the WE396A, from the 1950s onwards (and for the next 30 years thereafter) General Electric (and several other tube/valve manufacturers) followed Western Electric with their own premium version of 6922. This range had controlled warm-up and tight specifications on grid-current, noise and microphony. The result, significantly smoother and more organic sound qualities.
While the 9-pin design was used, the electrical pin outs changed. As such, the GE5670 was not a straight ‘drop-in’ substitute for the 6922. So the GE5670 remain unloved and unused until……2014
From Machine-fabricated adapter with noise filtration





…2014, when iFi brought out the iTUBE tube buffer/pre-amplifier. From our research of the tube inventories around the globe, we found the GE5670 to be in supply and with surprisingly good sound. While the iTUBE was designed from day one with the GE5670 in mind, we found that customers really liked the GE5670 in the iTUBE but they wanted more…yet because of the different electrical pin configuration, the GE5670 was a no go.
The iFi solution was to machine-fabricate a special ceramic adapter with a miniature capacitor circuit to bring heater supply circuit noise (a common issue) sharply down.
Enter the NOS 6922 matched pair





Factory installed, the GE5670 + Adapter work as one (they cannot and should not be separated under any circumstances). Serendipity struck as the shorter GE5670 plus the taller adapter equated to virtually the same height (tolerance within ~1mm from tube to tube).
Therefore, there should be no physical limitations to installing the NOS 6922 tube set in any 6922 audio component.*
Special rejuvenation process





General Electric manufactured the GE5670 from the 1950s through to the 1980s. Hence each valve is at least 30 years old or more. This extensive length of time in storage means one should adopt a special temperature and time-controlled oven ‘baking’ procedure to gently ‘rejuvenate’ each and every valve.
If they were just powered up after such a long time in storage, it would certainly weaken their internal architecture and shorten the life span.
With iFi’s special rejuvenation process, we gradually bring the GE5670 back to life to continue the NOS military level of performance.
Hand-selected and computer-matched





At iFi, given the AMR background, we are literally besotted about tubes/valves. Therefore, we hand-select each and inspect every valve, to ensure their internal structure has not been compromised by the long storage. We then burn them in for 48 hours before finally matching them by computer.
This ensures that each and every pair is perfectly matched and prepared for hours of usage.


----------



## rb2013

> 10/20/15 at 5:41am
> 
> THREAD STARTER
> 
> ...


 
  


> http://www.tubemaze.info/tubes-black-gray-plates/
> 
> The CCa Valve uses a standard grey anode (plate) where the GE 5670 uses a carbonized nickel 'black plate' anode.
> 
> ...


 
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/784809/ifi-nos6922-valve-tube-upgrade-set-new-product-announcement


----------



## kolkoo

I've actually gone down the rabbit hole with some 5670/2C51 tubes already:
  
 I've got two pairs based on reviews that should be in the top 3 of 2C51, I'm not sure how these would perform in a DAC but in my Lyr 2 they sound good, yet did not beat any of my favorites 6DJ8/6922:
  
 1) LM Ericsson - https://tubeworldexpress.com/products/jw-2c51-396a-western-electric-kuhl-tube-1959-best-single
  
 2) Tesla 6CC42 Pinched Waists
  
  
 They still sound great however considering price to sound ratio.
 Have not tried WE396A but might do so in the near future.


----------



## rb2013

kolkoo said:


> I've actually gone down the rabbit hole with some 5670/2C51 tubes already:
> 
> I've got two pairs based on reviews that should be in the top 3 of 2C51, I'm not sure how these would perform in a DAC but in my Lyr 2 they sound good, yet did not beat any of my favorites 6DJ8/6922:
> 
> ...


 

 I have some WE396A but need adapters for the different pinouts.
  
 Did you try the iFi version with the noise reduction?


----------



## kolkoo

rb2013 said:


> I have some WE396A but need adapters for the different pinouts.
> 
> Did you try the iFi version with the noise reduction?


 
 Nope I did not know about them. I used these (were linked by somebody from schiit in some other thread) - www.ebay.com/itm/191636111735
 They worked pretty great and I have no complaints about them. The tubes also fit really tight into them and they don't fit super tight into the sockets. So it's easy to remove them along with the tubes.


----------



## rb2013

kolkoo said:


> Nope I did not know about them. I used these (were linked by somebody from schiit in some other thread) - www.ebay.com/itm/191636111735
> They worked pretty great and I have no complaints about them. The tubes also fit really tight into them and they don't fit super tight into the sockets. So it's easy to remove them along with the tubes.


 

 Thanks will give those a try - nice part about the original Lyr - AC heaters - so a wider assortment of tubes.


----------



## r2muchstuff

*"Gold plated 5670 6n3 WE396A TO ECC88 6922 6DJ8 tube adapter"* (www.ebay.com/itm/191636111735) arrived today.
  
 Thanks to another Head-fier 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, I have a matched set of 6N3P-E Reflektor - 1986 installed in the Valhalla 2.
  
 First listen, after a 30 min. warm up, sounds "dang good" but of course they need more burn time, there is much potential here.
  
 On play for the afternoon/evening plus, as a bonus, the Beyer T90 gets more burn 
  
 Later,
 r2


----------



## grizzlybeast

So I have had the Gold lions in my tube amp. 
  
 Part of the forwardness, upper midrange forwardness, and dynamics was due to those tubes. They are clear, and transparent. The soundstage has some good height to it it seems but not a lot of width. A little bright or something but not as mellow as the Amperex USN CEP 6922 and not as wide. The amperex sounds warmer, with a warm hue down low and is less bright and forward. The Amperex can earn my preference on some songs and it seems more articulate even though is is more mellow. There is a warmness about it though that seems less clear at first. My rig is pretty aggressive so it doesn't need anymore dynamics and these are more mellow than the Gold lions and sounds more natural so far. But I really like the Gold lions transparency.  
  
 Def not done. I feel I have just begun down a rabbit trail now.


----------



## MWSVette

grizzlybeast said:


> ...
> 
> Def not done. *I feel I have just begun down a rabbit trail now*.


 
  
  
 You have no idea...


----------



## rb2013

mwsvette said:


> You have no idea...


 
 Just reading on the Woo WA2 tube thread - @billerb1's comments on the Tele ECC188's!  Herleen Bill has gone German! 
  
 He must have posted a thousand posts on the superiority of the dutch glass.  I really love the Tele E188CC as you can see from my rankings - way more then even the Amperex PW's.
  
 But I can see why some might like the PW's euphonic warmth - but for him to go from Herleen to Munich - that's quiet a leap.  Maybe will land back in Saratov.
  
 If you haven't read this:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/393811/woo-wa2-tube-rolling-recommendations/660#post_12707452
  
 Even changed his flag avatar to the German one.


----------



## billerb1

rb2013 said:


> Just reading on the Woo WA2 tube thread - @billerb1's comments on the Tele ECC188's!  Herleen Bill has gone German!
> 
> He must have posted a thousand posts on the superiority of the dutch glass.  I really love the Tele E188CC as you can see from my rankings - way more then even the Amperex PW's.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Roberto !!!!!!  Don't  get me wrong.  I still loves me my Pinched Waists and my Miniwatt E188CC's...BUT these Telefunken E188CC's have a magic synergy with the GEC 6AS7G's I just switched to in my Woo WA2.  Such a pure tone.  Detailed but not analytical or sterile at all.  Instrument timbre is resonant and pulsating...and this is where it isn't the "leap" from Heerlen to Ulm you'd think, at least to my ears, as far as richness of tone (what I associate with and love about the PWs).  I'd owned a pair of Tele E88CC's a few years ago and loved their delicate beauty...but they were definitely "delicate"...they never quite got there on an impact level.  These do !!!  Closest to "live" I've heard on my modest system.  It's been over a month now that I've had 'em  and the honeymoon is still going on.  I guess it's love.
 PS - I'm glad you got a kick out of my avatar.


----------



## rb2013

billerb1 said:


> Roberto !!!!!!  Don't  get me wrong.  I still loves me my Pinched Waists and my Miniwatt E188CC's...BUT these Telefunken E188CC's have a magic synergy with the GEC 6AS7G's I just switched to in my Woo WA2.  Such a pure tone.  Detailed but not analytical or sterile at all.  Instrument timbre is resonant and pulsating...and this is where it isn't the "leap" you think, at least to my ears, as far as richness of tone (what I associate with and love about the PWs).  I'd owned a pair of Tele E88CC's a few years ago and loved their delicate beauty...but they were definitely "delicate"...they never quite got there on an impact level.  These do !!!  Closest to "live" I've heard on my modest system.  It's been over a month now that I've had 'em  and the honeymoon is still going on.  I guess it's love.
> PS - I'm glad you got a kick out of my avatar.


 
 Whazz-up Billy Boy!
  
 I posted this link at the bottom of my review - they rated the Tele E188CC as one of the best.
  
 http://hktubeaudio.homestead.com/files/6dj8.html
  
 Well many consider the 'German' sound as the antithesis of the Dutch sound.  I have to say compared to the gray shield Siemens CCa's the Tele's seemed more neutral.  I just wish they were cheaper.  Have you tried the Tele CCa's?
  
 Have you tried these iFi 5670W's?  I'm curious about them.


----------



## r2muchstuff

Yes, please, somebody report on the iFi 5670W's.  Curiosity is growing.
  
 The 6N3P-E Reflektor - 1986 in the Valhalla 2 is really getting along with the Beyer T90.  They are now pushing 16hrs of burn.
  
 The bass and mids are robust, the treble is ..... smooth.  On a T90?
  
 r2


----------



## billerb1

rb2013 said:


> Whazz-up Billy Boy!
> 
> I posted this link at the bottom of my review - they rated the Tele E188CC as one of the best.
> 
> ...


 
  
 As  to hearing the Tele CCa's or the iFi 5670W's my answer is NICHT !!!!


----------



## grizzlybeast

http://m.ebay.com/itm/E188CC-NOS-Telefunken-diamond-bottom-tubes-matched-by-sound-/201464364876

Are those worth 1k??


----------



## billerb1

grizzlybeast said:


> http://m.ebay.com/itm/E188CC-NOS-Telefunken-diamond-bottom-tubes-matched-by-sound-/201464364876
> 
> Are those worth 1k??




That's crazy. You can find a pair for under $300 if you're patient.


----------



## TK16

Would not pay over $300, my sets were $300 and $265.


----------



## billerb1

This listing is still open on the HeadFi For Sale forum:
  
http://www.head-fi.org/t/809575/nos-tubes-for-sale-reflektor-telefunken-amperex-pelican-case-socket-saver


----------



## TK16

Maybe I should grab it, seems I`m a set short for some odd reason.


----------



## billerb1

tk16 said:


> Maybe I should grab it, seems I`m a set short for some odd reason.


 
  
 Naw, save your money for another pair of your beloved Siemens E188CC's !!!  You see where both those pairs of Siemens CCa's went for under $200 on Ebay.  But I'm not sure they were the early (pre 1965) CCa's...and from all that I've read those are the real deal...with  the later ones not nearly as good.


----------



## grizzlybeast

billerb1 said:


> This listing is still open on the HeadFi For Sale forum:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/809575/nos-tubes-for-sale-reflektor-telefunken-amperex-pelican-case-socket-saver


 
 I already pmd him but he hasnt been on in a while.


----------



## billerb1

grizzlybeast said:


> I already pmd him but he hasnt been on in a while.


 

  Ha!  I just went to the link and now he has them listed as SOLD.  But like I said, you can find them.  Hunt some other places besides just Ebay.  There are other for sale forums around and private sellers.


----------



## TK16

billerb1 said:


> Naw, save your money for another pair of your beloved Siemens E188CC's !!!  You see where both those pairs of Siemens CCa's went for under $200 on Ebay.  But I'm not sure they were the early (pre 1965) CCa's...and from all that I've read those are the real deal...with  the later ones not nearly as good.


 
 Yeah, very hard to not bid on those but I got more than enough Germans inluding 4 sets of E88CC grey shields, I won 3 auctions in 2 days, the last was a quad of greys for $113.


----------



## rb2013

grizzlybeast said:


> http://m.ebay.com/itm/E188CC-NOS-Telefunken-diamond-bottom-tubes-matched-by-sound-/201464364876
> 
> Are those worth 1k??



Now that is down right silly. I think I paid $300 for the pair I used in my review, sold them for the same.


----------



## rb2013

billerb1 said:


> Naw, save your money for another pair of your beloved Siemens E188CC's !!!  You see where both those pairs of Siemens CCa's went for under $200 on Ebay.  But I'm not sure they were the early (pre 1965) CCa's...and from all that I've read those are the real deal...with  the later ones not nearly as good.


That I can confirm, having owned dozens of Seimens CCa's. The silver shield '70's are not not in the same league as those lovely '60's grays.

Dude you have to checkout another major, and I'm talking earth shaking audio find of mine, this new frontier AOIP. No more USB. AES67 audio over IP Ethernet. The SQ is just unbelievable.

Check out my AOIP thread.


----------



## billerb1

rb2013 said:


> That I can confirm, having owned dozens of Seimens CCa's. The silver shield '70's are not not in the same league as those lovely '60's grays.
> 
> Dude you have to checkout another major, and I'm talking earth shaking audio find of mine, this new frontier AOIP. No more USB. AES67 audio over IP Ethernet. The SQ is just unbelievable.
> 
> Check out my AOIP thread.


 
  
 Thanks bro.


----------



## grizzlybeast

I am curious where these gold lions would rank on this. I am sure it has been covered some where but I would like to share an opinion of them. Or at least what I hear when I pop them in. 
  
 Now I do not have really any experience at tube rolling and am getting into it now. 
  
*Genalex Platinum Gold Lion Gold pins:*
  
*Treble: *boosted in the lower treble, decent air, A little forward there
*Upper mids*: Sound the same and in line with the lower treble
*Midrange proper*: Forward, transparent, and resounding with out a thick lower midrange. Vocals and instruments resonate a bit more and they don't sound as intricately detailed as I would like but they are realistic and fulfilling with good tone. 
*Bass: *Really like the bass, full, rich, solid, and punchy. Not soft or smoothed over. 
*Soundstage*: Good height and layering but not super wide or deep. The soundstage sounds intimate and a little tall.
  
 After more tube rolling I am sure I will be able to nail em down better but this is my impression.


----------



## Hansotek

grizzlybeast said:


> I am curious where these gold lions would rank on this. I am sure it has been covered some where but I would like to share an opinion of them. Or at least what I hear when I pop them in.
> 
> Now I do not have really any experience at tube rolling and am getting into it now.
> 
> ...


 
  
 They're alright, but nothing special compared to some of the others. I found the treble a bit annoying, personally. IMO, you need to get yourself some of dem Holy Grails, Grizz. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200. Go straight to audio nirvana. Those babies are the truth! Huge, visceral dynamics, mounds of detail and A++ tone all the way. I tried the Reflektor back-to-back with a Gold Lion on my Liquid Crimson... it did not go well for the Gold Lion. It's position at the top of the list in the OP is well earned.
  
 You'd probably like the Miniwatt188CC's as well, since I know you love dat bass like me. Those early 70's Harleen, Holland tubes are quite beautiful.
  
 Happy rolling!


----------



## grizzlybeast

hansotek said:


> grizzlybeast said:
> 
> 
> > I am curious where these gold lions would rank on this. I am sure it has been covered some where but I would like to share an opinion of them. Or at least what I hear when I pop them in.
> ...


 
 Yes it is a bit annoying. I was being polite. 
  
 I have some amperex usn-cep 6922 NOS  that do sound better than those. They are warmer overall, less annoying in the treble, have slightly less bass, are less forward, more detailed, have a wider soundstage, and less of a resounding upper midrange and lower treble. They were someone elses Holy Grail until they sold their MJ2. They told me they preferred them to the 75 reflektors but with what I am hearing, though good, I want more and would like to hear another highly recommended pair of tubes to compare them to. @rb2013 says they are good and almost as good as the number 7308's. I have some funds reserved for the HG's when and if I can get em at a good price. I can't find em though. Friday I may just buckle down on that 200 for the 75's because I am very impatient. Or I may get some Siemens CCA's or something I dunno.
  
 The problem is that you have to wait. I had the HG's orders and probably should have just kept my order there. But the word was that 200 is overpriced yet I cant find them ne where.  
  
 I may stop here while I search and search for those 75 reflektors at a good price. 
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-E88CC-SIEMENS-6922-E88CC-6DJ8-100-HICKOK-TESTED-GRAY-SHIELD-EXTRA-STRONG-/201594012192?hash=item2eeff08220:g:104AAOSwR5dXTCwH


----------



## TK16

That's a decent price, be sure you use the best offer feature, he might accept significantly less.


----------



## rb2013

grizzlybeast said:


> I am curious where these gold lions would rank on this. I am sure it has been covered some where but I would like to share an opinion of them. Or at least what I hear when I pop them in.
> 
> Now I do not have really any experience at tube rolling and am getting into it now.
> 
> ...


 

 They may well be one of the best of the new production 6922 tube family.  I have heard them and they are pretty good.  But no where near the best of the vintage stuff from the 60's and 70's.
  
 For the price of $90/pr not a bad value either.  The good news if you buy from a reputable dealer like Tube Depot they will precisely match them for you.  Matching across section and balance between tubes helps.


----------



## rb2013

hansotek said:


> They're alright, but nothing special compared to some of the others. I found the treble a bit annoying, personally. IMO, you need to get yourself some of dem Holy Grails, Grizz. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200. Go straight to audio nirvana. Those babies are the truth! Huge, visceral dynamics, mounds of detail and A++ tone all the way. I tried the Reflektor back-to-back with a Gold Lion on my Liquid Crimson... it did not go well for the Gold Lion. It's position at the top of the list in the OP is well earned.
> 
> You'd probably like the Miniwatt188CC's as well, since I know you love dat bass like me. Those early 70's Harleen, Holland tubes are quite beautiful.
> 
> Happy rolling!


 

 +1 If you can afford the extra bucks - totl vintage is going to give you a better experience.  The way I look at it - life is short - why spend precious hours listening to mediocre tubes.
  
 What I do love about tube gear - the ability to change things up fairly easily.  Hence this insane tube rolling hobby.  I know more then a few folks with literally 100's of tubes.
  
 Cheers


----------



## rb2013

grizzlybeast said:


> Yes it is a bit annoying. I was being polite.
> 
> I have some amperex usn-cep 6922 NOS  that do sound better than those. They are warmer overall, less annoying in the treble, have slightly less bass, are less forward, more detailed, have a wider soundstage, and less of a resounding upper midrange and lower treble. They were someone elses Holy Grail until they sold their MJ2. They told me they preferred them to the 75 reflektors but with what I am hearing, though good, I want more and would like to hear another highly recommended pair of tubes to compare them to. @rb2013 says they are good and almost as good as the number 7308's. I have some funds reserved for the HG's when and if I can get em at a good price. I can't find em though. Friday I may just buckle down on that 200 for the 75's because I am very impatient. Or I may get some Siemens CCA's or something I dunno.
> 
> ...


 

 And don't discount the '74 Reflektor Silver Shield SWGP - some prefer them to the HG '75's.  At times they are cheaper and easier to find. 
  
 But the usual 'buyer beware' applies to dealing with these Ebay Russian and Ukrainian dealers.
  
 I have a nice extra pr of these if you want to try them - PM me.


----------



## billerb1

Hey Bob...off topic a little. Did you end up getting the new HD800s...how do they compare to the old version to your ears?


----------



## rb2013

billerb1 said:


> Hey Bob...off topic a little. Did you end up getting the new HD800s...how do they compare to the old version to your ears?


 

 No still on the fence.  Enjoying the life sized and life like imaging of my 5ft tall Maggie planers.  I have some Senn PXC450 for travel and tube testing.
  
 Been working hard on my digital source - first with maxing out the USB DDC connection to my DAC
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/803111/xmos-xu208-usb-bridges-the-latest-gen-has-arrived
  
 Experimentation with galvanic isolation schemes lead me to this unique device that really improved my already complex USB chain.  The ICRON/Startech GB LAN USB extender.  Tried this after hearing PS Audio Paul McGowen's You tube video on their upcoming LANRover device.
  
 That then lead to getting away from USB completely - using a new AES67 Audio Over Internet Protocol device - the REDNET 3.  This is at the very cutting edge of computer audio today. And well just to say there are no words to describe the SQ levels - just the best I have ever heard.  Including my old $30K analog rig.
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/806827/audio-over-ip-rednet-3-16-review-aes67-sets-a-new-standard-for-computer-audio
  
 All along the way the HG's have just been scaling higher and higher - have yet to hear them hold back any detail or dynamics which have improved immensely (use them in the pre-amp section of the class A Hybrid integrated amp).
 Cheers!


----------



## billerb1

rb2013 said:


> No still on the fence.  Enjoying the life sized and life like imaging of my 5ft tall Maggie planers.  I have some Senn PXC450 for travel and tube testing.
> 
> Been working hard on my digital source - first with maxing out the USB DDC connection to my DAC
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/803111/xmos-xu208-usb-bridges-the-latest-gen-has-arrived
> ...



 


Robert, I am going to run this through Google Translate. My sense is that things are going very well. Seriously I will check out your AOIP thread...sounds very interesting.
Cheers !!!!


----------



## rb2013

billerb1 said:


> rb2013 said:
> 
> 
> > No still on the fence.  Enjoying the life sized and life like imaging of my 5ft tall Maggie planers.  I have some Senn PXC450 for travel and tube testing.
> ...


 

 LOL!  Yes count me as a full fledged audio nerd.  But with 'golden' ears!  Just kidding there - on the serious side I'm absolutely floored at how important the PC/Server to DAC part of the chain is.  My original thinking was bits are bits - now I see there is so much more going on there.
  
 Just like the HG's others who have tried it agree.


----------



## MWSVette

rb2013 said:


> And don't discount the '74 Reflektor Silver Shield SWGP - some prefer them to the HG '75's.  At times they are cheaper and easier to find.
> 
> But the usual 'buyer beware' applies to dealing with these Ebay Russian and Ukrainian dealers.
> 
> I have a nice extra pr of these if you want to try them - PM me.


 
  
 I am fond of both.  But I have to give the edge to the HG's..


----------



## grizzlybeast

here we go.
  
 Got a pair on the way!!!


----------



## TK16

4 used Telefunken E188CC for $399.00 OBO.
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/4x-E188CC-Telefunken-Tube-Valve-Rohre-/381724022983?hash=item58e08658c7:g:c-kAAOSwaB5XoaLk


----------



## rb2013

mwsvette said:


> I am fond of both.  But I have to give the edge to the HG's..


 
 Me too, as you can see from the review rankings.
  


grizzlybeast said:


> here we go.
> 
> Got a pair on the way!!!


 
 Great get - you should really like these.
  


tk16 said:


> 4 used Telefunken E188CC for $399.00 OBO.
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/4x-E188CC-Telefunken-Tube-Valve-Rohre-/381724022983?hash=item58e08658c7:g:c-kAAOSwaB5XoaLk


 
 That a steal of a price.


----------



## thewatcher101

Can someone suggests me some tubes. Here are my current experience and I am kinda of a bass head. I want to try tubes that have very interesting low end detail, because I think it gives life to music. I like it when the bass tickles my ear drums.
  
 Gear is iphone -> Herus+ DAC -> pathos -> lcd 2.1
  
 The Herus+ has an aggressive treble, but trades of with rich tonal qualities. The Herus is balanced with a very forgiving amp the pathos. It pretty much takes care of the treble issue with ease.
  
 The pathos amp is very delicate and swapping tubes takes like 10 hours before my ears fully adjust and notice most of the differences in each tube. Its not a big jump like on the lyr, but making every tube sound great is a plus.
  
 LCD 2.1 lacks dynamic range but makes up for just a sweet and lush sounding headphone.
  
  
 Tubes - I've tried
  
 JJ - Didn't really like them, lacks extension.
 EH6922 - Love them for the price, recessed mid, highs and lows are nice and bloomy but messy. 
 Tele 60s ulm e88cc - Love them, not for their price, but they make the pathos sound like a solid state amp without any harshness, and a slight warm in the bass. The e88cc pick up  where the eh6922 left off in the bass, hit almost just as low, but much more detail and control.
 Amperex USA 60s USA 7308 - didn't like them, they sounded very nice, highs and lows pretty much drop off to only focus on mids. sounded great with vocals if you don't like hearing instruments.
  
 Tubes on my short list of things I want to try based on what i've read.
  
 Siemens E88CC 70s
 Amperex Bugle Boy 6DJ8/ECC88/Pope PCC88 - I might want to try these as a improvement over the Amperex
 6H23 Type 3 - A improved EH 6922
 Tungsram 6922 - Cheap Tele 60s
 Tungsram PCC88/Gold Lion E88CC - Curious all around performer.
 Siemens 7308 - Just curious about the bass
  
  
  
  
 Thanks.


----------



## Thenewguy007

grizzlybeast said:


> here we go.
> 
> Got a pair on the way!!!




Congrats. Don't forget you need to burn those in before they start sounding great.

My '75 grey shields opened up at the 10 hour-ish mark.


----------



## grizzlybeast

thenewguy007 said:


> >
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 how did they sound in the Trafomatic?
  
 wait did you sell your trafomatic? if so why?


----------



## TK16

thewatcher101 said:


> Can someone suggests me some tubes. Here are my current experience and I am kinda of a bass head. I want to try tubes that have very interesting low end detail, because I think it gives life to music.
> 
> Gear is iphone -> Herus+ DAC -> pathos -> lcd 2.1
> 
> ...


 
 If your a bass head, Blackburn Mullards may be your ticket, those are the warmest set of tubes I own, you can look in Mullard ECC88 with the "B" code, they are not expensive either. Brent Jessee describes Mullards as having sweet mids, airy highs and very rich bass. 
 All the different 6922 variants are explained and give you a general idea how different tube makers like Telefunken, Siemens, Amperex etc sound differs.
 http://www.audiotubes.com/6dj8.htm


----------



## rb2013

thewatcher101 said:


> Can someone suggests me some tubes. Here are my current experience and I am kinda of a bass head. I want to try tubes that have very interesting low end detail, because I think it gives life to music. I like it when the bass tickles my ear drums.
> 
> Gear is iphone -> Herus+ DAC -> pathos -> lcd 2.1
> 
> ...


 

 You could check out the '75 Voskhod Grey Shields - plate posts.  Solid bass and reasonable cost - although the HG's have better defined bass and a more neutral tonal balance.


----------



## TK16

@thewatcher101, this is what Brent from audiotubes says about female vocals with Mullards, that set you bought for $119.99 sells for $325 there. probably better to post in the thread instead of pm as I`m a relative tube newbie myself. That way people know you already made a purchase. There are far more  experienced people posting in this very thread.
  
*MULLARD, GENALEX, BRIMAR, and other British made NOS: * Like a warm British jacket of the finest tweed, these glorious tubes have an attractive sweet warmth in their midrange and lower regions. The top end is silky and pleasant, without being rolled-off. The best of these tubes retain a fine sense of "air" at the top, and the upper midrange is smooth and liquid. *These tubes reproduce the human voice, especially female voices, with haunting realism.* The 1970s Mullard made have an attractive sparkle at the top with the rich bass, and these tubes are usually priced less than the older types.


----------



## TK16

http://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649280973-matched-pair-telefunken-diamond-bottom-cca-gold-pin/images/1253398/
  
  
 Come across this ad for Tele CCa $300 OBO, anybody willing to take a chance on these?? Paint looks like it was recently put on imo, an added bonus! Looks too good to be true imo.


----------



## Thenewguy007

tk16 said:


> Paint looks like it was recently put on imo, an added bonus! Looks too good to be true imo.




That's usually a sign of a scam.


----------



## TK16

Could it be an E88CC, with CCa printing? They would look identical iirc?


----------



## rnros

tk16 said:


> Could it be an E88CC, with CCa printing? They would look identical iirc?


 

 Yes, they would look identical to the E88CC except for the CCa print line. Remember that all the available information indicates that the only difference was in the selection/testing process _after _coming off the production line. And actually, I have never seen any documentation that details just what that selection/testing process was, every tube? A limited number of pulls? Remember that any large client can call the shots on what they purchase, but only to a degree, because then cost of production is impacted. So quality is definitely a target, and the lowest cost is another target. But on paper it all looks good, special testing requirements (what were they?), special pricing, 'special' product (but with no change to production), and a very large client (post office/telephone/telegraph) is happy. Actually, I'm sure that the testing requirements did insure a higher level of consistency and a lower number of fails, and thus reducing costly maintenance services for the PO/T/T industries. But it's not a guarantee.
  
 It would be interesting to test a box of 'standard' E88CCs and a box of CCa's from a similar time period to see how much of a difference there actually is. Kevin @ Upscale has fresh boxes of E88CCs but I don't know if the CCa's he has are from a fresh box. Could just be a batch that has already been picked through before, thus a lower percentage of tight and quiet tubes. Kevin's opinion:
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwa6LCcPO-A  (Upscale Audio's Kevin Deal reviews the Telefunken CCa/6922)
  
 I think they are authentic, I see nothing about the paint and print that appears any different than the range of paint and print we've seen from other reputable dealers. Also, there is nothing in the CCa print line itself that would appear to indicate that only the CCa line is forged. If I were interested in more Telefunken 6922/E88CCs, I would not hesitate to purchase these. The seller has a good reputation. The price is good, if the tubes are also good. You can always ask in advance if the tubes are quiet...


----------



## TK16

Thanks for the detailed post, just bought a set of Pinched Waists, maybe another member can pick the set up.


----------



## rnros

tk16 said:


> Thanks for the detailed post, just bought a set of Pinched Waists, maybe another member can pick the set up.


 

 Good luck with the PWs, hope they're a great pair! You're collection is growing fast.
 The Tele CCa look like a nice pair. No doubt, someone will snatch those soon.


----------



## TK16

rnros said:


> Good luck with the PWs, hope they're a great pair! You're collection is growing fast.
> The Tele CCa look like a nice pair. No doubt, someone will snatch those soon.


 
 They are coming today, this link is ebay, $1000 obo, SN is 1 digit off, same year different date?
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Match-Pair-CCa-Telefunken-diamond-Tube-Same-production-code-Ulm-factory-/172153659272?hash=item2815285f88:g:OM8AAOSwsN9W~kuS
 Think people are leery becauuse of the low price. $300 obo.


----------



## r2muchstuff

I ask this over a week ago in the Valhalla 2 tube Rolling thread, so far no response.  Not much information that I can find.  Anyone here care to comment?
  
  
 I now have a pair of:
  
 6FQ7 (6CG7) RCA Clear-top +/- 1970 (side getter)
  
 According to the Lyr & Lyr 2 compatibility Chart they will work in a Lyr (1).
  
http://www.radiomuseum.org, has this:
  
  

*Base*Noval, B9A*Was used by*Radio/TV-reception etc.*Filament*Vf 6.3 Volts / If 0.6 Ampere 
  

  
 Are they OK for the Valhalla 2?
  
 I think so, but would like others thoughts.
  
 Thanks,
 r2


----------



## eschell27

Does anyone know much about the Amperex 7308/E188CC and 69cc/E88CC white labeled USN-CEP, USN, and JAN from '62-'66? I think someone has a decent lot of them. I'm curious if they are the same ones Brent Jesse sells for $350/pr. If so it's really good deal assuming it's legit...Says he will matched pairs or quads for $89 tube. Worth someone who knows more about it than me taking a look at?
 If someone with knowledge wants to investigate for me/whoever might be interested let me know!
  
 Thanks!


----------



## thecrow

Tube codes quite often can do my head in

There are some philips miniwatt e188cc tubes being sold on ebay that have the code VR5⊿2D2 

I believe vr = e188cc
The delta sign is philips heerlen

The seller is saying these are 1962 tubes. I read somewhere else the 5 in vr5 is the 5th revision and/or it means 1975. 

On e188cc heerlen tubes what codes suggest the year and what should i look for? What suggests 1970's and what 1960's?

Also im quite happy with my amperex 6922 pq usa tubes (i think maybe late 60's from memory). Am i right in thinking holland 60's e188cc tubes would have a little more warmth in the mids but not be a hige step up from my 6922? And hence no real reason to look for another outlay if about $300/$350 on these style of tubes?

Your experienced views are most welcome.


----------



## rnros

@eschell27
If this is the seller 'sojs' on USAudioMart, he has been offering these for a while and has good seller reputation. Photos look good, tubes with paint and etchings. 
I believe these are pulls from surplus military equipment with little or no use. Tubes are also tested for sound, accepts returns for bad tubes. Other than purchasing from an individual seller on one of the audio marts or eBay, this is the lowest price I've seen. If I needed more of these, I would not hesitate.

For additional price comparisons also see Upscale, $115 for same tube, or mercedesman on eBay, $299 for pair. With mercedesman you are purchasing the same pair as shown in photos. His photos may be useful to you for comparison purposes:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/AMPEREX-7308-6DJ8-6922-ECC88-VACUUM-TUBE-1965-PAIR-MATCH-PAIR-BEST-EVER-NOS-A42-/322199893985?hash=item4b049c37e1:g:YMkAAOSwDuJWz1-b


----------



## MWSVette

thecrow said:


> Tube codes quite often can do my head in
> 
> There are some philips miniwatt e188cc tubes being sold on ebay that have the code VR5⊿2D2
> 
> ...


 
 VR is E188CC
  
 The 5 would be the 5th revision of tube type VR.   They would probably be 1962 I believe 1972 would be a higher revision.
  
 Most folks would say the older the better.
  
 Check out this website.  It has pretty good discriptions of sound signature by type and manufacture,
  
 http://www.audiotubes.com/6dj8.htm


----------



## TK16

Preferring the Holland sound over the USA sound, these tubes are not in my rotation at all, some one else can give these the play time they deserve.


----------



## thecrow

tk16 said:


> Preferring the Holland sound over the USA sound, these tubes are not in my rotation at all, some one else can give these the play time they deserve.







mwsvette said:


> VR is E188CC
> 
> The 5 would be the 5th revision of tube type VR.   They would probably be 1962 I believe 1972 would be a higher revision.
> 
> ...



I have looked at tht page a lot. And bought my usa pq 6922 tubes from there. 

These pq tubes i enjoy for their overall well balanced sound. Also have some siemens cca which are a bit more lively and less warm. 

Is holland tubes quite a bit if a difference or slight? I noticed theres some valvo e188cc in ebay. Late 60's i beleive. Just sussing out my option.


----------



## TK16

http://www.audiotubes.com/6dj8.htm
 go to the section below, give you an idea on different brand/ county of origin tubes.
*OK, SO TELL ME HOW THEY SOUND!!*


----------



## thecrow

tk16 said:


> http://www.audiotubes.com/6dj8.htm
> go to the section below, give you an idea on different brand/ county of origin tubes.
> *[COLOR=FF0000]OK, SO TELL ME HOW THEY SOUND!![/COLOR]*


I can't. I haven't heard them. 

Good grief. Sorry for sourcing others' opinions

And furthermore here we are in a thread that was started with a review. 

Anyyyyyywayyyyy......i'll move on


----------



## TK16

thecrow said:


> I can't. I haven't heard them.
> 
> Good grief. Sorry for sourcing others' opinions
> 
> ...


 
 I gave you a link describing the different country of origin tubes, I did not ask you how they sound, that is the section you want to read. Starting with that title in the link I provided.
*OK, SO TELL ME HOW THEY SOUND!! *


----------



## eschell27

Okay cool. I might have to grab a pair in the near future. Been wanting to try out some good Amperex driver tubes in my WA2.
  
 Appreciate the info!


----------



## rb2013

tk16 said:


> Preferring the Holland sound over the USA sound, these tubes are not in my rotation at all, some one else can give these the play time they deserve.



I've had the opposite experience, much prefer the more neutral and natural USN-CEP's to the euphonic Herleens.

I see some uber Herleen cheerleaders have jumped to the German Tele's recently on the Lyr thread. Funny the German sound more to the lean side then, those wooly Dutch tubes. The euphonic Dutch tubes do help those with mediocre sources. So YMMV.

Best of all are the spot on neutral Ruskies.

Had'em all.


----------



## thecrow

rb2013 said:


> I agree completely. Some 'Herleen Head's' have hijacked my review thread, to push this 'Dutch' tubes are the greatest nonsense here. After the Lyr tube rolling thread's biggest 'HH' went German. Then use this thread to advertise their tubes sales...very poor taste



Thanks for that. 
I also have some 70's bugle boys. Even though the detail is lacking (relative to others mentioned) I understand why these might be of interest when looking to curb brightness. I'm guessing my Burke boys aren't the best ones/vintage going around. 

But using my 70's Siemens cca as a reference point it seems that the HG of yours will add a euphoric sound and flow(as you say), the military USA 7308 would be queue similar but a little more warmth and bass and a tad less linear detail and the Philips sq e188cc sq offering a sweeter version of the USA 7308. Does that sound around the mark?

So all three above would be a small improvement in specific areas from my amperex 6922 USA pq and again not necessarily much of an improvement but a little bit of shuffling in the offering from my cca's. 

(That was me thinking aloud whilst getting my head around the idea of whether I need more tubes and how badly)


----------



## rb2013

thecrow said:


> Thanks for that.
> I also have some 70's bugle boys. Even though the detail is lacking (relative to others mentioned) I understand why these might be of interest when looking to curb brightness. I'm guessing my Burke boys aren't the best ones/vintage going around.
> 
> But using my 70's Siemens cca as a reference point it seems that the HG of yours will add a euphoric sound and flow(as you say), the military USA 7308 would be queue similar but a little more warmth and bass and a tad less linear detail and the Philips sq e188cc sq offering a sweeter version of the USA 7308. Does that sound around the mark?
> ...


 

 I like the late Large Halo '50's BBs - but they lack tonal neutrality, detail and do not scale well in dynamic passages.  But a sweet tube none the less.  I did a Amperex vs Voshkod shootout and posted the results way back on the old Lyr tube rolling thread,  Preferred the BB to the OG's. But for $50-$70 not bad, and better than any new production I have heard.
  
 I have had so many Amperex. Philips, Valvo, etc tubes to list.  Including the famed pinched waists in E88C and E88CC versions.  Not my cup of teas - although they have tons of tonal richness - to me sounding too tonally thick.  Like pouring dark chocolate on the detail.
  
 My favorite (and many others if you read the original Lyr tube rolling thread) Amperex are the USN-CEP 7308 and the White Shield PQ's.  The most natural and neutral in tone of all the Amperex tubes - and rival the Tele E88CC and Siemens '70s Silver Shield CCa's.  The Tele E188CC and Siemens '60s Gray Shield CCa's being in a league of their own.
  
 The HG's have the tonal density and richness of the best Amperex - but coupled with greater detail, air and transparency.  So they are a touch warmer then the Siemens (the most tilted to the detail, air, transparency side of the tonal balance).  The German Tele E188Cc are very close to the HG's in neutrality and detail - a truly exceptional tube.  The very best Siemens '60's Gray Shield CCa's are very close to the HG's as well.  So the best of these Amperex, Siemens and Tele tubes converge on this rich natural sounding tone.  The best Tele and Seimens moving to the warmer side, the best Amperex to the airy side and the HG's spot on.
  
 What the HG's do that exceeds the best of those tubes - is plumb greater depths of detail and add a greater flow factor - some call musicality.  You need good gear and a great upstream  source to appreciate these differences.  Since I have done this review I have improved my already good digital source chain considerably - and the HG's have scaled right along.  I have yet to hit their limit - or feel they have serious flaws uncovered - just the opposite their 'magic' just grows with the greater detail revealed from the source chain.  I can not say that about many of the other top tubes.  With the improved dynamic range from this improved source - some tube seem to run out of juice on loud complex passages - they turn muddy and compressed.  Not the HG's they have ample reserves to stay clear and focused when presented they difficult passages.  Really fun to try and through the toughest at them and watch how the stay composed and detailed.  sorting out all the varying layers of music and dynamics with supreme finese. 
  
 I realize my systems are unique - and for many folks with bright or edgy sources the Holland tubes can help tame this so as always YMMV.


----------



## thecrow

rb2013

Some interesting reading there. My older BB's sound just like yout description. 

You mentioned the amperex pq white shield and if you mean the 6922's thats what my first tubes bought were thanks to some extra guidance from brent jessee and joes tube lore. 

And having the silver shield 70's cca (as i just checked amd never had before) those cca's are then better than what i thought. I was thinking the 70's were quite a step down from the 60's but maybe the 70's are not that bad 

I didnt think that my ccas would be described as warm. Or did you mean the best ones and the tele e188cc are on the warmer side. I expected them to be on the brighter side of neutral thanks to that linear extension in the mids and uowards. With the amperex 6922 pq shields being considered by me a tad warmishly neutral. 

and going back to the BB's i would hope the top end holland tubes (eg philips e188cc pq) would show a LOT more detail even if it was down with some fatness/texture in the mida

Some great food for thought and comparisons for considereing if its worth me spending another $200-400 for more tubes there rb2013

Edit: and all these tube contemplations are for my wa2 thats smooth and silky rather than tubey and gooey, my metrum hex thats quite naturally toned and the gec6as7g tubes that really deliver detail and great extension up and down and absolutely YMMV


----------



## thecrow

Oops double post


----------



## rb2013

thecrow said:


> @rb2013
> 
> Some interesting reading there. My older BB's sound just like yout description.
> 
> ...


 

 Yes the '60's Siemens CCa Gray Shields move toward warmth from the ones you have - converging toward neutral.  Not quite spot on neutral but close.  Same for the Tele E188CC's vs the E88CC's.  Never had the Tele CCa's to try - at $1K not going to.
  
 We are on the same page the Amperex move from warm toward neutral as they get better - to me the USN-CEP 7308's being the best - followed by the USN-CEP 6922/PQ White Shield (many say they are the same).  So they are still warmish, but the most neutral of the Amperex family.
  
 Great DAC and HP amp - so you have a nice kit to hear the differences in these tubes.  Versus say a Lyr and BiFrost.
  
 Compared to the BB's the USN's have muchmore detail and focus.  Better dynamics as well.  The Dynamics part would important on Rock and Large Orchestra.


----------



## Gondwana

My 75 reflectors came in last week.
 I bought them from ebay and they sound good, and are silent


----------



## rb2013

gondwana said:


> My 75 reflectors came in last week.
> I bought them from ebay and they sound good, and are silent


 

 Did you test them for output matching, gas grid leakage, shorts? 
  
 Good Luck


----------



## Gondwana

I do not have any test equipment unfortunately. Its just what i hear.
 He did gave me some test results.
  
*Tube **#1 (01.1975)**: Ia1 = 11.0 mA; **Ia2 = 12.0 mA;*
*Tube **#2 (06.1975)**: Ia1 = 12.0 mA; **Ia2 = 11.0 mA;*
  
 So far the tubes are a big improvement over my 1971 siemens. They are clear and spacious, detailed, with a hint of warmth.


----------



## rb2013

gondwana said:


> I do not have any test equipment unfortunately. Its just what i hear.
> He did gave me some test results.
> 
> *Tube **#1 (01.1975)**: Ia1 = 11.0 mA; **Ia2 = 12.0 mA;*
> ...


 

 Well I really don't trust these Ebay overseas sellers - as I do have a tester and most of the time their reported test results don;t match up.  But at least they are not noisy - so consider yourself lucky.

 They are still my favorite tube - enjoy!


----------



## tbish

rb2013 said:


> Anybody try these yet?  They look very interesting.
> 
> http://ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/accessory-nos-6922-2/
> 
> ...


 

 I just received a pair of these today and have been listening to them for a few hours in my Mjolnir 2. I have to say that my initial impressions are really good for these so far. The bass has a nice added kick to it with great extension. The mids are slightly warmer than neutral and have a nice, pleasing sound. The treble is slightly smoothed, but without sacrificing any detail. The soundstage has opened up as well. I feel like iFi hit a home run with this tube/adapter.

 The adapter base is wrapped in silicone, which helps with heat. I haven't been able to separate the tubes from the adapter, but I haven't tried very hard at this point. I can pull the tube out of my amp and the adapter has no problem staying attached.


----------



## rb2013

tbish said:


> I just received a pair of these today and have been listening to them for a few hours in my Mjolnir 2. I have to say that my initial impressions are really good for these so far. The bass has a nice added kick to it with great extension. The mids are slightly warmer than neutral and have a nice, pleasing sound. The treble is slightly smoothed, but without sacrificing any detail. The soundstage has opened up as well. I feel like iFi hit a home run with this tube/adapter.
> 
> The adapter base is wrapped in silicone, which helps with heat. I haven't been able to separate the tubes from the adapter, but I haven't tried very hard at this point. I can pull the tube out of my amp and the adapter has no problem staying attached.


 

 Thanks for the post - what are some of the better tubes you have tried in the MJ2?


----------



## tbish

rb2013 said:


> Thanks for the post - what are some of the better tubes you have tried in the MJ2?




I've tried a few different types of tubes. The complete list is in my profile. Some of my favorites are the 1963 Amperexs, Teslas and the Siemens. I also roll the Schiit LISSTs in often to help compare to a flat, neutral response.

I have yet to try the RCA and Phillips tubes because the iFi has my full attention at the moment.


----------



## rb2013

tbish said:


> I've tried a few different types of tubes. The complete list is in my profile. Some of my favorites are the 1963 Amperexs, Teslas and the Siemens. I also roll the Schiit LISSTs in often to help compare to a flat, neutral response.
> 
> I have yet to try the RCA and Phillips tubes because the iFi has my full attention at the moment.


Give the top Russians a try.

Someone offered to loan me their iFi pair for a quick trail, not heard back from them.


----------



## tbish

rb2013 said:


> Give the top Russians a try.
> 
> Someone offered to loan me their iFi pair for a quick trail, not heard back from them.


 
  
 I plan to try them at some point, but I also need to slow down on this tube rolling experience haha


----------



## rb2013

tbish said:


> I plan to try them at some point, but I also need to slow down on this tube rolling experience haha


 

 Yes it can become a spendy habit.
  
 My iFi loaners are on the way!


----------



## krud484

I wanted to post some tube impressions here since the Lyr tube rollers thread doesn’t wet my appetite like this thread does. Here’s a rundown of the listening setups in my house:

  

 Mine – PC -> Fidelizer -> J River (Dithering mode off) -> iFi USB 2 Power Supply + Gemini -> iFi Micro iDSD (NOS mode) -> Schiit Lyr 2 -> Grado GS2000e, Sennheiser HD600 w/ SAA Equinox cable

  

 Tubes rolled:

 ’65 Amperex 7308 USN-CEP

 ’75 Reflektor 6N23P SS SW

 Bel Philips Design SQ E88CC/6922

 Schiit LISST

  

 I also run two Furman power conditioners in conjunction with this setup.

  

 Brother – PC -> Fidelizer -> J River (Dithering off) -> Regen USB + Supra -> Benchmark DAC 2 HGC -> Benchmark XLR balanced cables -> Schiit Mjolnir 2 -> Sennheiser HD800 w/ S balanced cable

  

 Tubes:

 ’68 Telefunken E88CC 6922 Ulm

 ’70 Siemens CCa SS

  

 He runs HD Plex and Plixir power conditioners with it.

  

 I know there is a very limited exposure to the Grado GS2ke, so in short it sounds considerably close to an HD800 especially with soundstage, 3D imaging, and transparency. Grado has really upped their game; this headphone is supremely flat in its frequency response not nearly as colored as others. My thoughts on these tubes come from 75% GS2ke and 25% HD600.

  

*Amperex 7308 USN-CEP* – Very mid-centric sounding tubes. Instrument embodiment is quite full and impactful. All around soundstage depth is really tight. This leads to my 2D impression of their sound. The stereo imaging was definitely affected by this. I like stuff with impeccable imaging like Depeche Mode or New Order albums from the ‘80s. I just can’t track some of their keyboard effects all around me like I can with other tubes.

  

 The tonality is on the subtly warm side of neutral transparency. Decay has a long enough hold on the music to lack air but still be relatively clear. The sound ends up highlighting more of the dynamics of the music. Synthesizers are the absolute euphonic strength of the tube with wonderful dreamy-ness and musicality. It’s what adds that dark dripping wet atmosphere to the music, very engaging stuff. There is a resounding smoothness to vocals which make male or female vocalists sound silky and intimate. By intimate I do mean close, the air on the top is really restrained.

  

 Transient power is very impactful with crisp treble and punchy bass. Snare drum is smooth and clean. Kick drum is thunderously thumpy. Cymbals and high hats are fast and resolving never fuzzy. Bass has a nice sub-bass presence on my GS2ke. It flows fast and easy to track picking and slapping; suits well for rock stuff like Rush and Primus. On my HD600 though, I feel like there’s a slight mid-bass hump which bleeds in the upper and lower mids. It makes the guitar sound too thick and somewhat lacking texture. The mids sound congested with too much loss of separation detail. These are side effects that are stringent to what equipment is being used though.

  

 These tubes scale well with a headphone that has a fast decay response, large soundstage, and neutral flat bass presence. I didn’t find them to pair well with a headphone that has even decay and a middle of the road soundstage.

  

*‘75 Reflektor 6N23P SS SW* – Most solid state sounding tubes that retain the best qualities I look for in a tube. There truly is wall to wall clarity without a ceiling. It is very three dimensional with its pinpoint imaging. The musicality is there and ever present. The air on the top has the sparkle that’s crystal clear. The decay is rapid fast and easily matches the GS2ke which is one of fastest dynamic headphones on the market.

  

 The air with these tubes is downright haunting in their realistic presentation. The timbre to the body of the music is so clear from top to bottom and all around. The sound is wide open with immense soundstage depth. Separation is on a grand scale. I love hearing the backing vocals and overdubs with these. The layering with almost any given track is beautiful to dissect and hear how the song comes together and works musically.

  

 The tonality is densely rich in clarity while being very neutral in transparency. The roll off some tubes have in the sibilance with sharp vocals or drum cymbals is handled gracefully with these. I particularly enjoy hearing the breathe left in hot vocals on certain tracks, marvelous. Musicality is head and shoulders above any tube I’ve heard. There is something that is inherently euphonic in anything I’ve thrown at them. The atmosphere isn’t as pitch dark as the Amperex 7308 but rather out in the open shinning crystal clear in the daylight.

  

 Transient power is remarkably good given how quick the decay is. Bass is clean promptly controlled exquisitely tight. I found the bass to scale relatively neutral, flat, and transparent to the equipment being used. Treble detail and impact almost matches the Amperex 7308 but surpasses them with air and lots of it.

  

 There is a magical sense of wonder in the price to performance ratio of the ’75 Reflektor. If this is your first foray into tubes, these can be a dangerous gateway drug. A high the likes of which you may never match.

  

 Thanks to rb2013 for such an awestruck thread. It truly is a tube bible.


----------



## thecrow

krud484 thanks for the write up

Can anyone help re dario e188cc tubes?
I notice there are quite a few dario tubes on ebay generally quite cheaper than the philips e188cc. Are they not supposed to be the same and mafe by philips or is that too much of a generalisation/assumption?


----------



## ToddRaymond

Thanks krud484! Been looking to pick up some lesser expensive tubes for possibly a Vali 2 (or Lyr 2) in a bedroom system, and those Amperex 7308s sound like they could be the ticket.


----------



## rb2013

krud484 said:


> I wanted to post some tube impressions here since the Lyr tube rollers thread doesn’t wet my appetite like this thread does. Here’s a rundown of the listening setups in my house:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Great review!  Thanks for the kudos.
  
 I completely agree with your assessment of HG '75 Reflektors SWGP.  They have the ability to track complex dynamic passages exceptionally well.  Never turning muddy or compressed - revealing and tracking multiple vocal overlays for example.  The are not rolled in the highs - so depending on source and system may not be as 'forgiving' as the Dutch tubes.  Especially on middling source chains.  So YMMV.
  
 Cheers


----------



## krud484

rb2013 said:


> Great review!  Thanks for the kudos.
> 
> I completely agree with your assessment of HG '75 Reflektors SWGP.  They have the ability to track complex dynamic passages exceptionally well.  Never turning muddy or compressed - revealing and tracking multiple vocal overlays for example.  The are not rolled in the highs - so depending on source and system may not be as 'forgiving' as the Dutch tubes.  Especially on middling source chains.  So YMMV.
> 
> Cheers


 

 The roll off in the highs I get on the '75 Reflektor is subtle, it's just the way it handles sibilance that has me smitten. Out of all the tubes I've listened to, they easily have the least amount. It what gives me the solid state like impression with the only additive being the musicality. Heck, they may even out duel SS in terms of clarity and all the while still being the most transparent tubes out there.
  
 The Amperex 7308 is very forgiving and has a heavy enough roll off to take the air out of the vocals. Intimacy becomes both their strength and their weakness. That trade off can work on some material, but not everything. The '75 Reflektor is universal in making every album I've heard sound extremely faithful to the source and reveal complexities I never noticed before.


----------



## rb2013

krud484 said:


> The roll off in the highs I get on the '75 Reflektor is subtle, it's just the way it handles sibilance that has me smitten. Out of all the tubes I've listened to, they easily have the least amount. It what gives me the solid state like impression with the only additive being the musicality. Heck, they may even out duel SS in terms of clarity and all the while still being the most transparent tubes out there.
> 
> The Amperex 7308 is very forgiving and has a heavy enough roll off to take the air out of the vocals. Intimacy becomes both their strength and their weakness. That trade off can work on some material, but not everything. The '75 Reflektor is universal in making every album I've heard sound extremely faithful to the source and reveal complexities I never noticed before.


 

 Well with your HD600's could be a synergy thing, as they are a bit darker then the HD800's I used for the review.  In fact the HD800 were prone to sibilance, as a reported fact by many who have reviewed them.  I 'cured' mine by swapping the stock HP chord for a Moon Dragon V2.  Still the HD800's were extremely detailed and revealing - the Moon just smoothed out that simbilance issue and deepened the bass.


----------



## krud484

rb2013 said:


> Well with your HD600's could be a synergy thing, as they are a bit darker then the HD800's I used for the review.  In fact the HD800 were prone to sibilance, as a reported fact by many who have reviewed them.  I 'cured' mine by swapping the stock HP chord for a Moon Dragon V2.  Still the HD800's were extremely detailed and revealing - the Moon just smoothed out that simbilance issue and deepened the bass.


 

 When I think of the HD600 compared to the HD800, it’s just not in the same league. The HD800 is so much faster in its transient response, rapid quick decay. The HD600 is slower but still very neutral and resolved. It has trouble scaling to tubes that slow the decay to increase the impact and visceral transient power. That’s where the congestion comes in. I feel it is still a very transparent headphone, and I still go back to it no matter what else I’ve heard.

  

 When I listened to the HD800, it did have a balanced Black Dragon cable attached. Every time I've ever heard it, I had none of the issues that it is supposedly known for. Some say it even went through a silent revision before the S version got released. I think it goes back to those first few reviews that mention those problems, that became the general consensus. In reality, it's how the headphone scales to the listening rig. Changing the cable makes a big difference, using tubes benefits it even further etc.


----------



## rb2013

krud484 said:


> When I think of the HD600 compared to the HD800, it’s just not in the same league. The HD800 is so much faster in its transient response, rapid quick decay. The HD600 is slower but still very neutral and resolved. It has trouble scaling to tubes that slow the decay to increase the impact and visceral transient power. That’s where the congestion comes in. I feel it is still a very transparent headphone, and I still go back to it no matter what else I’ve heard.
> 
> 
> 
> When I listened to the HD800, it did have a balanced Black Dragon cable attached. Every time I've ever heard it, I had none of the issues that it is supposedly known for. Some say it even went through a silent revision before the S version got released. I think it goes back to those first few reviews that mention those problems, that became the general consensus. In reality, it's how the headphone scales to the listening rig. Changing the cable makes a big difference, using tubes benefits it even further etc.


 

 I do agree - here are David Mahler's comments on the HD 600 vs HD800:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/634201/battle-of-the-flagships-58-headphones-compared#user_HD600
  


> *SENNHEISER: HD600​*
> *STRENGTHS*
> *EXCELLENT TONE:* I adore the tone of the HD600. The bass, mids and treble are beautifully integrated. The tone is very close to neutral, featuring a pinch of extra warmth and body.
> 
> ...


 


> *SENNHEISER: HD800​*
> *STRENGTHS* *NEUTRALITY KING:* In my opinion, the HD800 is _the_ neutrality king. Depending on the setup, the HD800 may sound warm or bright. Because of its finicky nature with regard to amplification, many have described the HD800 as bright, but I cannot get on board with this description. I have heard the same pair of HD800's sound both dark and bright when paired with different setups. It really is a very amp-dependent headphone.
> 
> *GREAT SOUNDSTAGE:* While not everyone prefers a wide soundstage, I would say that for monitoring and critical listening purposes, it is beneficial. The HD800 features one of the most finely-contoured and widest soundstage presentations I've ever come across in a headphone. The height is not exceptional, but the depth and width are exemplary. This makes the HD800 an excellent choice for classical music in particular; when you listen to an 80-piece orchestra with 21 different parts all culminating at once, you really crave that width.
> ...


----------



## rb2013

Ok Had a chance to do a little tube rolling thanks to a friend who sent me a pair of the iFi 5670 with adapters to work with 6922, a pair of new production Tele 'Black Diamond' E88CC's, and a set of 6N3 to E88CC adapters into which I plugged my Western Electric 396A's:
  
  
  
 Against these I ran the ultra rare export version of the HG's - I call the Uber HG's
  
 Well here is what I heard in my Lyr 1 amp -
  
 The new production Tele BD E88CC's are a major disappointment - veiled, flattish sounding, weak bass, lacking dynamics - NADA!
 At close to $100/pr you can find much, much better NOS glass.

  
  
  
 Next the iFi 'NOS 6922'   actually GE 5670 with permanent adapters:
 Not bad!  Rich harmonics, decent bass, better then average detail and dynamics.
 Still I think you can do much better for the $100/pr cost for these

  
  
  
 The best of the three the the Western Electric 396A with these inexpensive 6N3 to ECC88 adapters (thanks Terry!).
 Rich harmonics, deep bass, nice detail - a true bargain for around $50/pr.

  
  
 Now in comparison to the Uber HG's - well no real comparison - the Uber's are just better in every way.  Much more detail - better and deeper bass, greater dynamics, and best of all the most natural and richest tone of the bunch.  But of course these are near impossible to find and when you do they are north of $230/pr.
  
 I guess if I had never heard the HGs, or the Uber HGs -the WE 396A's I could live with happily.  The problem with tube rolling once you hear greatness - it's very hard to turn back.
  
 Cautionary note: The Lyr 1 HP amp is known to be able to handle a wide array of tubes - to that group I believe the WE 396A could be added (but check with Schiit first), as for other amps like the Lyr2?  Best to contact the manufacturer and ask them.
  
 Cheers!


----------



## TK16

I think those Tele are J&J rebrands, read that somewhere.


----------



## rb2013

tk16 said:


> I think those Tele are J&J rebrands, read that somewhere.


You might be right on that, not a great tube.


----------



## kolkoo

http://www.ebay.com/itm/6N23P-E88CC-6922-6DJ8-Tube-Single-Straight-Wire-D-Getter-Strong-Ultra-RARE-/182281579025?hash=item2a70d42a11:gHQAAOSwTA9X2YNR
  
 D-Getter 6N23P supposedly? Fascinating if legit


----------



## rb2013

kolkoo said:


> http://www.ebay.com/itm/6N23P-E88CC-6922-6DJ8-Tube-Single-Straight-Wire-D-Getter-Strong-Ultra-RARE-/182281579025?hash=item2a70d42a11:gHQAAOSwTA9X2YNR
> 
> D-Getter 6N23P supposedly? Fascinating if legit


 

 Amperex rebrand?  They are not Russian.


----------



## kolkoo

rb2013 said:


> Amperex rebrand?  They are not Russian.


 
 Don't know man the micas looks awfully russian. And the construction is definitely not any other 6922 I've ever seen. Maybe @Oskari has an idea?


----------



## Oskari

kolkoo said:


> Don't know man the micas looks awfully russian. And the construction is definitely not any other 6922 I've ever seen. Maybe @Oskari has an idea?




You have a point about the micas. Also note the pointy pins. It's not something made with your typical Philips tooling.


----------



## rb2013

kolkoo said:


> Don't know man the micas looks awfully russian. And the construction is definitely not any other 6922 I've ever seen. Maybe @Oskari
> has an idea?


Russians used only three kinds of getters in the 6n23p, saucer, flat disc, halo. These are Euros.


----------



## kolkoo

rb2013 said:


> Russians used only three kinds of getters in the 6n23p, saucer, flat disc, halo. These are Euros.


 
 Got any source other than "that's just how it was" or?
  
 Edit: Anyway I guess it doesn't matter much since I doubt anyone would buy it at that price unidentified albeit "ultra rare" especially from svetlana_ua


----------



## TK16

Anybody besides the Russians used pointy pins in their tubes?


----------



## MWSVette

kolkoo said:


> Got any source other than "that's just how it was" or?
> 
> Edit: Anyway I guess it doesn't matter much since I doubt anyone would buy it at that price unidentified albeit "ultra rare" especially from svetlana_ua


 
  
  
 When it comes to information about Russian tubes rb2013 is the source...


----------



## kolkoo

mwsvette said:


> When it comes to information about Russian tubes rb2013 is the source...


 
 Of course pardon my blasphemous doubt during the search of the origins of this tube 
  
 Found a tube that kinda looks the same http://www.ebay.com/itm/SYLVANIA-6DJ8-6922-Vacuum-Tube-TESTED-GOOD-D-GETTER-/311667529527?nma=true&si=ZWKaks4vGK%252FlYLCaGwNnvf7dkGc%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557 but is also different... but kinda the same.. but different


----------



## rb2013

kolkoo said:


> Got any source other than "that's just how it was" or?
> 
> Edit: Anyway I guess it doesn't matter much since I doubt anyone would buy it at that price unidentified albeit "ultra rare" especially from svetlana_ua


 

 I wouldn't trust that seller in a million years


----------



## rb2013

kolkoo said:


> Of course pardon my blasphemous doubt during the search of the origins of this tube
> 
> Found a tube that kinda looks the same http://www.ebay.com/itm/SYLVANIA-6DJ8-6922-Vacuum-Tube-TESTED-GOOD-D-GETTER-/311667529527?nma=true&si=ZWKaks4vGK%252FlYLCaGwNnvf7dkGc%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557 but is also different... but kinda the same.. but different


 

 Interesting...
  
 These are my favorites - relabled USSR 6n23p sold by Westinghouse (our Nuke warhead manufacturer!) as 7308 - in 1978.  But in Canada.  1978 was during the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan.  The 7308 was the ruggedized military version of the 6922.
  
 Odd to say the least...would love to know the back story of how and why our main nuclear warhead defense contractor came about selling Soviet tubes with a Westinghouse brand, marked 'MADE IN USA' - at the height of the 'Cold War' - in Canada!

  
 BTW Those Sylvania's (another major US defense contractor at that time) are the Reflektor flat disc, dual straight pin 6n23p.


----------



## rb2013

BTW - exploring the 6N3P in the Lyr.  After a successful listening of the WE 396A with an adapter.
  
 The 6N3P's are dirt cheap.


----------



## kolkoo

rb2013 said:


> BTW - exploring the 6N3P in the Lyr.  After a successful listening of the WE 396A with an adapter.
> 
> The 6N3P's are dirt cheap.


 
 I've thought about that too how do they fare?


----------



## r2muchstuff

rb2013 said:


> BTW - exploring the 6N3P in the Lyr.  After a successful listening of the WE 396A with an adapter.
> 
> The 6N3P's are dirt cheap.


 

 I have some 396A incoming,  please share more on your experience with them.
  
 Ask rnros about the 6N3P 
  
 I currently have 6N3P-E OTK Reflektor - NOS 1977 - 1.6 % match in Lyr 2.  Have about 75 hours on them.  So far - really good with Beyerdynamic DT 990.
  
 r2


----------



## MWSVette

rb2013 said:


> Interesting...
> 
> These are my favorites - relabled USSR 6n23p sold by Westinghouse (our Nuke warhead manufacturer!) as 7308 - in 1978.  But in Canada.  1978 was during the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan.  The 7308 was the ruggedized military version of the 6922.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I cannot imagine that a tube that said made in the U.S.S.R. would have been accepted on an american nuke...


----------



## rb2013

mwsvette said:


> I cannot imagine that a tube that said made in the U.S.S.R. would have been accepted on an american nuke...


 

 LOL!  You right. Wonder if the 'Cold War' era USSR missiles used the same tubes - what irony


----------



## rb2013

kolkoo said:


> I've thought about that too how do they fare?


 

 The WE 396A were excellent - still preferred my HGs.  But for the money a great value.  That leads me to start on the 6N3P chase.  HGs have just become so darn expensive - the Uber HG's as well.


----------



## rb2013

r2muchstuff said:


> I have some 396A incoming,  please share more on your experience with them.
> 
> Ask rnros about the 6N3P
> 
> ...


 

 Nice - on the 6N3P-E's.  I posted my impressions a page or two back.  Compared them to the iFi 'NOS 6922' GE 5670 - and the new production Tele black diamonds - vs the HG's


----------



## r2muchstuff

rb2013 said:


> Nice - on the 6N3P-E's.  I posted my impressions a page or two back.  Compared them to the iFi 'NOS 6922' GE 5670 - and the new production Tele black diamonds - vs the HG's


 

 Thank you, I already forgot about that, dang too many distractions.
  
 r2


----------



## Oskari

tk16 said:


> Anybody besides the Russians used pointy pins in their tubes?




At least RFT sometimes did, but they tend to look a bit different.


----------



## Oskari

kolkoo said:


> Found a tube that kinda looks the same http://www.ebay.com/itm/SYLVANIA-6DJ8-6922-Vacuum-Tube-TESTED-GOOD-D-GETTER-/311667529527?nma=true&si=ZWKaks4vGK%252FlYLCaGwNnvf7dkGc%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557 but is also different... but kinda the same.. but different




Yes, there are similarities – and differences.


----------



## Oskari

rb2013 said:


> kolkoo said:
> 
> 
> > Of course pardon my blasphemous doubt during the search of the origins of this tube
> ...




I suggest you take another look. See both photos.


----------



## thecrow

Any views here of the amperex 6922 pinched waist FROM THE USA v the top end siemens cca gray shield or better telefunken e188cc tubes?

And also if there would be a substantial difference between these PW USA and the military 7308?

Thanks in advance.


----------



## rb2013

thecrow said:


> Any views here of the amperex 6922 pinched waist FROM THE USA v the top end Siemens cca gray shield or better telefunken e188cc tubes?
> 
> And also if there would be a substantial difference between these PW USA and the military 7308?
> 
> Thanks in advance.


 

 Good question - I did have (not as part of this review) the USA Amperex PW 6DJ8 vs the Holland Amperex 6922 PW.  For me the PW sound is a bit to euphonic (woolly), but might be great for system with lessor sources (their warmth can mask a verity of sins).  They are also notoriously microphonic.
  
 My favorite, for the money is still the Amperex USN-CEP 7308 and PQ white shields - both USA.  But for me the '60's Siemens CCa gray shields and Tele 188CC's are in a whole different league.
  
 Different money league as well!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 I keep hoping one day someone will make a sota new production 6922.  Right now the Ruskie HG ubers are the best for me.


----------



## thecrow

rb2013
Is this an example of the siemens we are talking about?

http://vi.raptor.ebaydesc.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemDescV4&item=282198882422&category=64627&pm=1&ds=0&t=1475851872331

It has codes of A0/1#/4F on the getter support. So i guess that makes it a 1964 tube?

What are the codes to look out for in these? The A0? I assume thats the version and the # is for the plant?

Im intrigued by what ive read about these top siemens as my 70's silver sound great to me but these top end siemens are supposed to be way better.


----------



## rb2013

thecrow said:


> @rb2013
> Is this an example of the siemens we are talking about?
> 
> http://vi.raptor.ebaydesc.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemDescV4&item=282198882422&category=64627&pm=1&ds=0&t=1475851872331
> ...


 

 Yes that the ones.  Only bettered in the Siemens line by the even earlier 'U' or 'Horseshoe' getter version.
  
 I have owned many of these Siemens CCa's - gray and silver.  Trust me the 70's silvers are no where close to the '60's grays.
  
 I never had the U getters though!
  
 From page 1 of this review:
  
 Tubeworld:


> ```
> [color=#000000][b]The Best Sounding CCa=6922 ever made[/b][/color] [color=#000000]TOP 5:[/color] [color=#000000]-----[/color] [color=#000000]1) CCa Siemens & Halske 1950's "U" getter halo and 1960's "O" getter halo[/color] [color=#000000] "Rarest and most sought after CCa, has "gray shield" between plates, [/color] [color=#000000] Most realistic sounding holographic soundstage, pure seductive sonic joy,[/color] [color=#000000] complex symphonic images emerge effortlessly"[/color] [color=#000000]2) CCa Telefunken West Germany 1960's [/color] [color=#000000] "excellent neutral holographic soundstage, vast vocabulary of tone[/color] [color=#000000] establishes remarkable layers of harmonics, very rare"[/color] [color=#000000]3) CCa Siemens & Halske A-FRAME construction late 1960's - early 1970's[/color] [color=#000000] "beautiful open air holographic images, low microphonic tube construction, rare"[/color] [color=#000000]4) CCa LORENZ West Germany early 1960's[/color] [color=#000000] "beautiful open air holographic images, very rare"[/color] [color=#000000]5) CCa VALVO Heerlen Holland 1960's[/color] [color=#000000] "real sonic holography, extremely rare"[/color] [color=#000000]6) CCa Siemens Rohre A-Frame early 1973-1974 (in stock, silver shield)[/color]
> ```


----------



## thecrow

rb2013 said:


> Yes that the ones.  Only bettered in the Siemens line by the even earlier 'U' or 'Horseshoe' getter version.
> 
> I have owned many of these Siemens CCa's - gray and silver.  Trust me the 70's silvers are no where close to the '60's grays.
> 
> ...



Are there preferred versions or years?

Is the 0 in A0 the version?

Are these very similar to tele e188cc or is there a specific point of difference from your experience?

Or should i just go with tour write up at the beginning of this thread that didnt appear to have a huge difference from memory (that ive read at leat 10 times over the last few months)?

Thanks

Btw this is the link i was wanting to send that showed the tubes
http://m.ebay.com/itm/2x-CCa-SIEMENS-audio-tubes-GREY-SHIELD-premium-6299-E88CC-CCa-/282198882422?nav=SEARCH


----------



## TK16

You would want the A0 revision Siemens grey shield CCa, 1965 or earlier. My pair is the 65`s. I prefer the CCa over the Tele E188CC. The Tele is warmer, very detailed and drier imo. Siemens are more detailed, closer to neutral and adds wetness that I like. I find Telefunkens to be a bit dry for my tastes, though quite good. Some one else may prefer the Tele to Siemens.or find them equally pleasing. YMMV. Really want to try Tele CCa but the price for those are quite high.


----------



## rb2013

thecrow said:


> Are there preferred versions or years?
> 
> Is the 0 in A0 the version?
> 
> ...


 

 Those look legit - but expensive.
  
 I would read my review for the differences I found.  I would say the Tele and Seimens in general have what I call the 'German' sound.  Clean, detailed, transparent, tonally tipped to the Yin side.  Versus the 'Holland' sound of a thicker tonality and more warmth.  For many with lessor sources (ie DAC, DDC, PC servers) this warmth and lower levels of transpancy can help cover over the sins from the source.
  
 Within the German family - I'd say the Tele E188CC's a bit more towards tonal neutrality.  But honestly - I could live happily for ever with any of these top German tubes. 
  
 For me the Russian have the most natural and neutral tonal balance - with air, transparancy and detail (in my view surpassing the top Germans here) - but coupled with a neutral, realistic tonal warmth.  They go one step further - the 'flow factor' - this is very hard to discribe - but in my systems they seem to have a greater holographic effect.  And a mezmerizing quality - to a degree not found in any of the other top tubes.
  
 PS For what I've heard the 1950's U getter Siemens CCa's have the greatest warmth of all Germans - and all the other positive attribute.  But expect to pay over $600 a pair or more if you ever could find a decent matched pair.  Many for a Hedge fund or Vulture Capitalist  - pocket change - but way to rich for my blood.  Would prefer to spend that on Mundorf Sup S/G/O caps or a totl LPS.


----------



## thecrow

rb2013 said:


> Those look legit - but expensive.
> 
> I would read my review for the differences I found.  I would say the Tele and Seimens in general have what I call the 'German' sound.  Clean, detailed, transparent, tonally tipped to the Yin side.  Versus the 'Holland' sound of a thicker tonality and more warmth.  For many with lessor sources (ie DAC, DDC, PC servers) this warmth and lower levels of transpancy can help cover over the sins from the source.
> 
> ...



And one (perhaps) final question between the miltary amperex usa 7308, the siemens cca and tel e188cc which would you say has the richest fullest mids and could any of them be considered as having sonewhat thin mids

Thanks heaps for all this info

Ps the recent valvo e188cc '65 holland tubes i bought are a fun tube that i will use at times but i do understand what you meant as woolly mids (which makes them fun) and they are lacking some naturalness so i guess thats the typical holland sound that i probably dont need to further explore.....at least not at the moment for my system


----------



## Thenewguy007

rb2013 said:


> Good question - I did have (not as part of this review) the USA Amperex PW 6DJ8 vs the Holland Amperex 6922 PW.  For me the PW sound is a bit to euphonic (woolly), but might be great for system with lessor sources (their warmth can mask a verity of sins).  They are also notoriously microphonic.
> 
> My favorite, for the money is still the Amperex USN-CEP 7308 and PQ white shields - both USA.  But for me the '60's Siemens CCa gray shields and Tele 188CC's are in a whole different league.
> 
> ...




What audio chain do you use? Amp/dac?


----------



## rb2013

thenewguy007 said:


> What audio chain do you use? Amp/dac?


 

 The HP amp I used for the review is listed at the beginning of the thread - but I have had many - too many to list.  One was the Woo WA6-SE modded with upgraded caps and NOS tubes. 
  
 As for source you can read my threads - again the development of my source is really sota USB and AOIP.
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/806827/audio-over-ip-rednet-3-16-review-aes67-sets-a-new-standard-for-computer-audio
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/803111/xmos-xu208-usb-bridges-the-latest-gen-has-arrived
  
 DACs are the APL NWO 3.0 GO Jr
 http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/aplhifi/nwo30go.html
  
 And my heavily modded R2R PCM1704U-K tubed DAC60
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/740362/lite-dac60-pcm1704-r2r-tubed-dac-mod-project
  
 Now in one system the BURL B2B DANTE AOIP DAC heavily modded.
  
 All three run circles around the Yggie - let alone the Gumby.


----------



## rb2013

thecrow said:


> And one (perhaps) final question between the miltary amperex usa 7308, the siemens cca and tel e188cc which would you say has the richest fullest mids and could any of them be considered as having sonewhat thin mids
> 
> Thanks heaps for all this info
> 
> Ps the recent valvo e188cc '65 holland tubes i bought are a fun tube that i will use at times but i do understand what you meant as woolly mids (which makes them fun) and they are lacking some naturalness so i guess thats the typical holland sound that i probably dont need to further explore.....at least not at the moment for my system


 

 Definitely the Tele 188CC - then the CCA Grays - then the USN-CEP 7308.  Really hard to compare the later as the other two are in a different league.
  
 Say comparing the Siemens E88CC to the USN 7308 - definitely the Amperex fuller mids.  The USN-CEP 7308 is the least euphonic of all the Amperex I have heard - the PQ White shield USA 6922 are close.
  
 On the 'Dutch' sound - glad you hear what I do.  As I wrote in the review they are great fun - the PW's especially.  I would love to have a pair to pop in every so often.  But they are rich (in price and euphonics!) and tough to find that are quiet (non-microphonic).
  
 You have to remember these are all 'bulbs' and will burn out eventually - so unlike a great cable or even an amp - they will last at most 5000 hours.  I'm talking NOS vintage tubes from the '50s, 60's and 70's.  Even ones rated MTBF when new of 10,000hrs.
  
 By far the Russian 6N23P has been the heartiest signal tube I have owned (I have as well had long experience with 6SN7's, 12ax7's, 12au7's, etc...).  In fact I stumbled on to them many, many years ago, after a Philips Mini Watt and a Siemens CCa gray both failed on me within one month.   Ever see a grown man cry?
  
 I went through a 'cryo' phase, buying many from CyroSet, even sending him batches to cyro for me.  That didn't work - they failed just as often.
  
 Good Luck!


----------



## rb2013

Speaking of the difficulty in finding matched tubes - I have been playing with the idea of a 6922 socket that allows the use of only one section from each tube.  Since the 6922, is a dual triode - and often you find that these rare NOS tubes have one strong section and one weak section.  My thought was why not a riser that has one set of output pins but two input sockets?  And could include a section flipper as well.  Only one section of each tube would be used.
  
 Here is something similar:



 This one would not work as it ws designed as an adapter for *6BL7 TO 6AS7.  They're $25 on Ebay.*
  
  
 Since only one section would be heated - the amps heater circuit should not have to experience any greater demands.  Just heat one section from each tube.
  
 With a riser like this- one could hunt for much cheaper tubes with one of the sections weak.
  
 Tubemonger triode flipper riser:
 http://www.tubemonger.com/TRIODE_FLIPPER_with_Vibration_Reduction_Base_p/triodeflipper.htm


----------



## thecrow

rb2013 said:


> Definitely the Tele 188CC - then the CCA Grays - then the USN-CEP 7308.  Really hard to compare the later as the other two are in a different league.
> 
> Say comparing the Siemens E88CC to the USN 7308 - definitely the Amperex fuller mids.  The USN-CEP 7308 is the least euphonic of all the Amperex I have heard - the PQ White shield USA 6922 are close.
> 
> ...



Couldn't you just have said the cca grays are the fullest mids from those so the one tube could tick all the boxes?

Im trying to avoid a tube that will come up too lean

Is it likely my '75 siemens cca would be similar to the earky 60's in richness? But the earlier ones are just better in clarity, detail etc? I don't find the '75 too lean and they are nicely rich in sound and detail already. 

My 6922 amperex pq's are nicely versatile and inoffensive
In a good way but those '75 cca tubes just have a real razzle dazzle and they usually are not too lean or bright

Teles ive never heard

And than you had to add how fund tbe PW holland tubes can be just to keep them at the back of my mind......


----------



## rb2013

thecrow said:


> Couldn't you just have said the cca grays are the fullest mids from those so the one tube could tick all the boxes?
> 
> Im trying to avoid a tube that will come up too lean
> 
> ...


 

 No the '70s silver shields are way leaner then the '60's grays.  I would prefer to have the gray shield regular ECC88 (remember the CCa's were just specially select ECC88's).
  
 If you find the silver shields rich enough - then the grays will be perfect for you.  They have a more neutral balance.  So much of this tube matching is system - preference dependent.
  
 The only way to know for sure is to try a few of the best out and see what is optimal for you.
  
 Why we love to tube roll.  I use the HGs in two hybrid integrateds, my HP amp, and  a DAC.  They seem to work everywhere for me.


----------



## TEH725

I took some tubes to test at this year's Decfest.  Those in the original box tested NOS.  Those not in a box, did not.  I only paid top dollar for the boxed ones.  The others, I kind of figured they would not really be NOS given their price.
  
 I am not seeing any 6n23p SSSWG deals out there anymore.  Russia or elsewhere.


----------



## rb2013

teh725 said:


> I took some tubes to test at this year's Decfest.  Those in the original box tested NOS.  Those not in a box, did not.  I only paid top dollar for the boxed ones.  The others, I kind of figured they would not really be NOS given their price.
> 
> I am not seeing any 6n23p SSSWG deals out there anymore.  Russia or elsewhere.


 

 They have become very scarce.  Wonder why??


----------



## m-i-c-k-e-y

They were "ROBbed"....


----------



## TEH725

One of the dealers I had an email exchange with trying to verify I was getting what they were advertising, mentioned this thread.


----------



## rb2013

teh725 said:


> One of the dealers I had an email exchange with trying to verify I was getting what they were advertising, mentioned this thread.


 

 It should be well known to them - it caused the prices to go from $40 to $230/pr.  One dealer told at one point he was getting 3-4 PM's on his Ebay account per day - from folks looking for these.
  
 I still do not trust any of these dealers - even the better ones do not test for noise or microphonics.  Try proving you returned tubes from the US to Ukraine.


----------



## thecrow

rb2013 the woolly character of my newly acquired 65 heerlen valvos has nicely tamed down. Either that or my ears have gotten used to it. 

That slightly un natural balance has mostly subsided and i can see these getting some heavy use as well


----------



## rb2013

thecrow said:


> @rb2013 the woolly character of my newly acquired 65 heerlen valvos has nicely tamed down. Either that or my ears have gotten used to it.
> 
> That slightly un natural balance has mostly subsided and i can see these getting some heavy use as well


 

 Good to hear.
  
 Enjoy!


----------



## Oskari

rb2013 said:


> Since only one section would be heated - the amps heater circuit should not have to experience any greater demands.  Just heat one section from each tube.




You can't do this with the E88CC/6922.


----------



## rb2013

oskari said:


> You can't do this with the E88CC/6922.


 

 So both sections must be heated - even if only one section is used?


----------



## Oskari

rb2013 said:


> So both sections must be heated - even if only one section is used?




The tube only has two heater pins.


----------



## rb2013

oskari said:


> The tube only has two heater pins.


 

 Yes I know - but they both don't have to be heated - just the one for the section used.  The 6922/E88CC is a dual triode. 
 In essence two tubes in one glass.
  
 The only common pin is #9 the internal shield.
  
 So for the adapter could be wired with pins 5,6,7,8,9 for tube 1 and pins 1,2,3,4,9 for tube 2.  Pins 5,6,7,8,9 for Section 1 of the 1st tube and pins 1,2,3,4,9 for Section 2 of the 2nd tube.
  
 I can't see any reason it wouldn't work.  The amp heater would only see 2 sections and 2 heater pins - just like in a single tube.


----------



## Oskari

rb2013 said:


> The only common pin is #9 the internal shield.
> 
> So for the adapter could be wired with pins 5,6,7,8,9 for tube 1 and pins 1,2,3,4,9 for tube 2.  Pins 5,6,7,8,9 for Section 1 of the 1st tube and pins 1,2,3,4,9 for Section 2 of the 2nd tube.
> 
> I can't see any reason it wouldn't work.  The amp heater would only see 2 sections and 2 heater pins - just like in a single tube.




Pin 9 is not connected to the heaters in the ECC88/6DJ8 family. (It is in the ECC83/12AX7 family, for example.)


----------



## rb2013

oskari said:


> Pin 9 is not connected to the heaters in the ECC88/6DJ8 family. (It is in the ECC83/12AX7 family, for example.)


That's good. Running a single section from two tubes should be doable then.


----------



## Oskari

rb2013 said:


> That's good. Running a single section from two tubes should be doable then.




It isn't. You need a circuit, 6.3 volts across pins 4 and 5 of each tube.


----------



## rb2013

oskari said:


> It isn't. You need a circuit, 6.3 volts across pins 4 and 5 of each tube.


 

 Too bad


----------



## thecrow

rb2013 said:


> No the '70s silver shields are way leaner then the '60's grays.  I would prefer to have the gray shield regular ECC88 (remember the CCa's were just specially select ECC88's).
> 
> If you find the silver shields rich enough - then the grays will be perfect for you.  They have a more neutral balance.  So much of this tube matching is system - preference dependent.
> 
> ...


Apologies if ive already asked this of you (rb) but in having just discovered that the cca's that i have that i do really enjoy are 1966 tubes and not 76 does your experience (or knowledge) have you believe there would be much difference between my '66 A1 silver shields and early 60's (say 63,64,65) A0 gray shields ?

Thanks
Peter


----------



## rb2013

thecrow said:


> Apologies if ive already asked this of you (rb) but in having just discovered that the cca's that i have that i do really enjoy are 1966 tubes and not 76 does your experience (or knowledge) have you believe there would be much difference between my '66 A1 silver shields and early 60's (say 63,64,65) A0 gray shields ?
> 
> Thanks
> Peter


 

 Hi Peter - Well I told those '60s gray shields were better then the '70's silver shields.  Now I have not owned every year of the Seimens CCa's  - that would require silly money spent.
  
 So I can't say - but please post your findings!
  
 If I win Lotto tonight I might look for a pair of the '50s 'U'Getters - they go for close to a grand  - if you can find them..
  
 As you you know my absolute favorites are the Uber HGs.  They were the game changer for me - and my tube lust was finally quenched!  That's a great place to be.


----------



## thecrow

rb2013 said:


> Hi Peter - Well I told those '60s gray shields were better then the '70's silver shields.  Now I have not owned every year of the Seimens CCa's  - that would require silly money spent.
> 
> So I can't say - but please post your findings!
> 
> ...


Thanks heaps for all the info. 

I'll mull it over before i decide whether to go tele e188cc (have never heard a tele) or grab a gray cca to pair with my silver. In that process i'll probably read your comparison on page 1 another dozen times again 

I lean to the cca's from your reviews but do i already have that 95% covered with my silvers? We shall see


----------



## rb2013

thecrow said:


> Thanks heaps for all the info.
> 
> I'll mull it over before i decide whether to go tele e188cc (have never heard a tele) or grab a gray cca to pair with my silver. In that process i'll probably read your comparison on page 1 another dozen times again
> 
> ...


 

 Please post your impressions either way. 
  
 Cheers


----------



## eschell27

Crow, have you ever heard the '74 or '75 Reflektors?
 I'm using some '75s in my WA2 with TS5998 and Brimar EZ80...been a wonderful combo so far.


----------



## thecrow

eschell27 said:


> Crow, have you ever heard the '74 or '75 Reflektors?
> I'm using some '75s in my WA2 with TS5998 and Brimar EZ80...been a wonderful combo so far.


No

Last time i asked Bob about them hw was limited in what he had and im wary of these sellers on ebay of them from what ive heard so i feel ive missed the boat


----------



## rb2013

thecrow said:


> No
> 
> Last time i asked Bob about them hw was limited in what he had and im wary of these sellers on ebay of them from what ive heard so i feel ive missed the boat


 

 Really wish Brent Jesse or Tube World  - even Upsacle would find a pallet of NOS '75 HGs and sell them.  The one seller on Ebay 'Jetparts' is fairly reliable on his tube testing - but does not screen for noise or microphonics.  So it's a bit of a $200/pr 'Russian Roulette" there.


----------



## eschell27

I'm with you...in all honesty i'd have no reservations at all paying $200/pair if i KNEW they were going to be quality tubes.


----------



## thecrow

rb2013 said:


> Please post your impressions either way.
> 
> Cheers



Thanks to kolkoo i mght have impressions of the '75 HG to post in a few weeks or ao


----------



## Lucifigus

I just want to say Thank You to all the people who have contributed to this great thread.  I recently purchased a Woo Audio WA2 and I was shopping for upgrade tubes before the amp arrived.  I am currently using some 1975 Voskhod Gray Shields and they sound wonderful.   I have a few other pairs of driver tubes (6922), 70’s Reflektors, ‘74 Silver Shield Reflektors, and others.  The question I have is how does one definitively determine the pedigree of the tubes?  It seems that if the tube has the correct physical structure (single wire, saucer getter etc.), the seller can claim it’s from any year, or in many cases, the year is not specified.  Is there any way to accurately determine the year?  Do the physical parameters change from year to year?
  
 Lucifigus


----------



## rb2013

lucifigus said:


> I just want to say Thank You to all the people who have contributed to this great thread.
> I recently purchased a Woo Audio WA2 and I was shopping for upgrade tubes before the amp arrived.
> I am currently using some 1975 Voskhod Gray Shields and they sound wonderful.
> 
> ...


Great question. This is where deep experience comes in handy. You just learn over time, with purchasing hundreds of tubes, what's 'normal' and what's bs. With Ruskies the dates are plain to read and stenciled on. Those damn Euro and US vintage tube makers used a hieroglyphic date coding. Worst the codes were painted on, and of course over the decades the paint just wore off or flaked off. So then it becomes very hard to determine dates.


----------



## Lucifigus

> You just learn over time, with purchasing hundreds of tubes, what's 'normal' and what's bs.


 
  
 Essentially then, the rabbit hole I stumbled into is much deeper than originally thought!  I was afeard of that.
 All the more important to recognize and appreciate the hard work and expense you and others have undertaken, thus allowing me and others to get close to "Holy Ground" without breaking the bank.
  
 Lucifigus


----------



## rb2013

lucifigus said:


> Essentially then, the rabbit hole I stumbled into is much deeper than originally thought!  I was afeard of that.
> All the more important to recognize and appreciate the hard work and expense you and others have undertaken, thus allowing me and others to get close to "Holy Ground" without breaking the bank.
> 
> Lucifigus


 

 Yes that was the intent of this thread - good luck!


----------



## cheeseeater

In case any tube rollers out there are interested, I'm selling a Cavalli Liquid Glass on EBay.


----------



## thecrow

thanks to rb2013 for bringing his HG's to out attention and for kolkoo for selling me a pair
  
 after an hour or two my initial impressions of the pair in my set up (woo wa2 amp with hd800) are mostly in line with Bob's - 
  
  
 *** an exceptional blend of a touch of warmth with high level of detail and nuances particularly in the mids and a little higher. nice air up there
  
 yes i have heard some nice things that have not caught my ear before
  
 i haven't noticed any grain at all
  
 the bottom end is good/decent
  
  
 i wouldn't say that i'm finding them extremely high on the musicality scale (as i would describe it) but the flow that Bob mentions is definitely there
  
 i wouldn't describe them as big on punch and dynamics but that's what i have my siemens cca's for (generally my favs)
  
 a great listen for mids, definite keepers and money well spent
  
 it's like my hd800's have turned into a super-uber hd600 with extra detail
  
 i'll have to delve into some piano and guitar track listening
  
  
 a great addition to what i have


----------



## MWSVette

thecrow said:


> thanks to rb2013 for bringing his HG's to out attention and for kolkoo for selling me a pair
> 
> after an hour or two my initial impressions of the pair in my set up (woo wa2 amp with hd800) are mostly in line with Bob's -
> 
> ...


 
 I agree 100%,
  
 Thanks Bob...


----------



## ScareDe2

Hi everyone,
 just wanted to ask, does anybody think the HG reflector 1975 lack rhythm/groove ? I would agree those tubes are spectacular in terms of soundstage imaging resolution and realism. But musical or euphonic I can't agree. Also, they are more pleasant tonally, very crankable without much fatigue, than the stock tubes in Lyr 2, but still a bit bright. To me, the number one problem is the groove.


----------



## thecrow

scarede2 said:


> Hi everyone,
> just wanted to ask, does anybody think the HG reflector 1975 lack rhythm/groove ? I would agree those tubes are spectacular in terms of soundstage imaging resolution and realism. But musical or euphonic I can't agree. Also, they are more pleasant tonally, very crankable without much fatigue, than the stock tubes in Lyr 2, but still a bit bright. To me, the number one problem is the groove.


Yes i agree as mentioned a few posts back

In my limited time with them, newly acquired, with my gear thats already quite smooth (woo wa2) i find them nicely flowing and easy listeneing. So i shall us them in that capacity but not as my main tubes. 

I love my siemens cca. Punchy, dynamic very detailed. Nice extension. Not laid back at all. 

I have some tele e188cc on the way but i have never heard any tele before

I also posted recently that my humble bugle boys ate fantastic value. They have ended up opening up quite similar to the siemens cca but not quite as detailed as layerd but heading that way and a touch warmer for half the price. These are quite musical and euphonic in a nice subtle way

If you dont find your system (too) bright then the siemens cca are worth looking at for something special IMHO. YMMV. 

and if you find some cheap bugle boys (60's) then also maybe worth a look

I have also found the amperex usa 6922 with a nice level of detail (but not as much as the teles) without any harshness, nice even balance and a touch or round smoothness. Again my recently acquired amperex military 7308 are a little brighter/neutral but a little leaner as my first impression of them

Hope that helps a little


----------



## rb2013

scarede2 said:


> Hi everyone,
> just wanted to ask, does anybody think the HG reflector 1975 lack rhythm/groove ? I would agree those tubes are spectacular in terms of soundstage imaging resolution and realism. But musical or euphonic I can't agree. Also, they are more pleasant tonally, very crankable without much fatigue, than the stock tubes in Lyr 2, but still a bit bright. To me, the number one problem is the groove.


They're re likely revealing a weak source, or you bought from Ukrainian EBay dealers mismatched tubes. They didn't go from $25 to $230 because they sound as you describe.

What's your source and hps?


----------



## rb2013

thecrow said:


> Yes i agree as mentioned a few posts back
> 
> In my limited time with them, newly acquired, with my gear thats already quite smooth (woo wa2) i find them nicely flowing and easy listeneing. So i shall us them in that capacity but not as my main tubes.
> 
> ...


Those were TK's mismatched noisy pair he could sell. Like many ( read the original Lyr thread) found the BB's pretty mediocre. Harsh and veiled.

Comparing the BB's to the CCa's is ridiculous. You lost any credibility with me.

But since you're gving poor advice, I would suggest the best of the BB's - the 50's D getters.

I hope you guys and your silly posts drive the price down on the HG' s. I need a few more pairs.


----------



## ScareDe2

rb2013 said:


> They're re likely revealing a weak source, or you bought from Ukrainian EBay dealers mismatched tubes. They didn't go from $25 to $230 because they sound as you describe.
> 
> What's your source and hps?


 

 Hi,
 www.ebay.com/itm/182300519746 I bought these here.
 I am using Audeze LCD2.2F with solid silver cable, Schiit Bifrost MB and Schiit Lyr 2. Foobar2k, Asio for generic USB device. I am listening to tons of music higher than CD quality. Thanks for any help.


----------



## thecrow

rb2013 said:


> Those were TK's mismatched noisy pair he could sell. Like many ( read the original Lyr thread) found the BB's pretty mediocre. Harsh and veiled.
> 
> Comparing the BB's to the CCa's is ridiculous. You lost any credibility with me.
> 
> ...



I was worried about that 

The ccas are definitely better but i find my bb good bang for buck. A good solid cheaper set up


----------



## rb2013

scarede2 said:


> Hi,
> www.ebay.com/itm/182300519746 I bought these here.
> I am using Audeze LCD2.2F with solid silver cable, Schiit Bifrost MB and Schiit Lyr 2. Foobar2k, Asio for generic USB device. I am listening to tons of music higher than CD quality. Thanks for any help.


Yeah figured


----------



## thecrow

rb2013 said:


> They're re likely revealing a weak source, or you bought from Ukrainian EBay dealers mismatched tubes. They didn't go from $25 to $230 because they sound as you describe.
> 
> What's your source and hps?




I have a metrum hex and hd800. I got my HG from Ivan. 

Talking to Ivan i wouldnt be surprised if they get better as i put more hours into them. At the moment the mids are the highlight together with their flow

Im hoping the bottom end opens up like a flower too


----------



## rb2013

thecrow said:


> I have a metrum hex and hd800. I got my HG from Ivan.
> 
> Talking to Ivan i wouldnt be surprised if they get better as i put more hours into them. At the moment the mids are the highlight together with their flow
> 
> Im hoping the bottom end opens up like a flower too


Nice DAC and HPs. The Hex is in class way above the Bumby.

How are you feeding the Hex. This part of the source chain is critical. See the comments on my XU208 and AOIP Rednet threads.


----------



## ScareDe2

thecrow said:


> Yes i agree as mentioned a few posts back
> 
> In my limited time with them, newly acquired, with my gear thats already quite smooth (woo wa2) i find them nicely flowing and easy listeneing. So i shall us them in that capacity but not as my main tubes.
> 
> ...


 
 Hi,
 thanks for the help
 I am gonna try the PQ amperex 6922 USA gold pins soon I got them for $40 I think it's good deal.


----------



## rb2013

scarede2 said:


> Hi,
> thanks for the help
> I am gonna try the PQ amperex 6922 USA gold pins soon I got them for $40 I think it's good deal.


You guys have me rolling on the floor laughing. $40 for a of Amperex PQ 6922's. 

What did PT Braun say about suckers?

Thanks for turning this into a comedy thread.:etysmile:


----------



## ScareDe2

rb2013 said:


> You guys have me rolling on the floor laughing. $40 for a of Amperex PQ 6922's.
> 
> What did PT Braun say about suckers?
> 
> Thanks for turning this into a comedy thread.


 

 Hi,
 I bought them here www.ebay.com/itm/131988847324


----------



## thecrow

scarede2 said:


> Hi,
> thanks for the help
> I am gonna try the PQ amperex 6922 USA gold pins soon I got them for $40 I think it's good deal.


Thats a great price. 

Let me know how you find them

And if you decide to sell them later for whatever reason you wont lose anything on them


----------



## thecrow

rb2013 said:


> Nice DAC and HPs. The Hex is in class way above the Bumby.
> 
> How are you feeding the Hex. This part of the source chain is critical. See the comments on my XU208 and AOIP Rednet threads.



Ill have a look at that when i get a chance later. Im always interested in learning from others and listening to their findings/opinions

I havent looked much into how im feeding the hex. Just using audirvana (aiff foles) or tidal app via usb connection from my mac

And some chord chameeon vee 3 rca connections. 

And some gec 6as7g power tubes

And some norne hp cables (silver amd hybrid and copper)

Just basic stuff perhaps


----------



## TK16

scarede2 said:


> Hi,
> I bought them here www.ebay.com/itm/131988847324



That was quite the steal there, congrats.


----------



## rb2013

scarede2 said:


> Hi,
> I bought them here www.ebay.com/itm/131988847324


 

 Seller has a great deal on some auto parts and these awesome boots - those test values I'm sure are legit 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  

  
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/8-EE-Double-H-Mens-10-inch-Steel-Toe-Boots-AG7-Briar-Ranch-Wellington-2635-NIB-/131972202556?hash=item1eba28003c:g:8xQAAOSw65FXq3d0


----------



## ScareDe2

Hi,
 With the pair I got here (two seems to be 75 single wire silver shield) for $25 http://www.ebay.com/itm/142177008402 + the other one I bought and the one I already have, I will be testing 3 pairs of Reflector 1975  From there, hopefully, I will have a good idea how it's supposed to sound. But the first pair I bought is probably very good already, no noise. The sound match your description except for the "musicality" and "euphonic".
  
 When I roll to Orange Globes 1969 (not the best but what I have now) the music is more groovy.


----------



## notfitforpublic

I've been skulking around this thread for some time and finally had a chance to try the *Reflektor '74 6N23P SWGP Silver Shields. *Fantastic tubes for what I paid and more enjoyable than the 70's Amperex Orange Globe A-Frames I was using prior.
  
 Now the problem created is finding more. I'd like a back up set if some one has some they're willing to let go of...


----------



## ScareDe2

notfitforpublic said:


> I've been skulking around this thread for some time and finally had a chance to try the *Reflektor '74 6N23P SWGP Silver Shields. *Fantastic tubes for what I paid and more enjoyable than the 70's Amperex Orange Globe A-Frames I was using prior.
> 
> Now the problem created is finding more. I'd like a back up set if some one has some they're willing to let go of...


 
 Maybe ask this seller he seems to have a couple of Ref '74 www.ebay.com/itm/142165593160
 There is many lot of this kind on ebay. I suppose at a lower price it is ok to take a risk you end up with many pair of tubes and an interesting resell value.


----------



## notfitforpublic

scarede2 said:


> Maybe ask this seller he seems to have a couple of Ref '74 www.ebay.com/itm/142165593160
> There is many lot of this kind on ebay. I suppose at a lower price it is ok to take a risk you end up with many pair of tubes and an interesting resell value.


 

 I'm without a tube tester (yes I know...) to be into buying lots. May have already sourced some from a reliable source, we'll see how it turns out.
  
 Anybody know what the average pair of 74 's and 75's are going for tested and matched?


----------



## rb2013

scarede2 said:


> Maybe ask this seller he seems to have a couple of Ref '74 www.ebay.com/itm/142165593160
> There is many lot of this kind on ebay. I suppose at a lower price it is ok to take a risk you end up with many pair of tubes and an interesting resell value.


Radiotube! Oh you better get a tube tester! Good Luck.


----------



## rb2013

notfitforpublic said:


> I'm without a tube tester (yes I know...) to be into buying lots. May have already sourced some from a reliable source, we'll see how it turns out.
> 
> Anybody know what the average pair of 74 's and 75's are going for tested and matched?


I was the ONLY seller to reliably sell well vetted matched HG pairs. Actually tested for noise and microphonics. Guess you never bothered to read this thread. Bought hundreds from these Ukrainian Ebay thieves. Grimmy bent pin tubes sold as new, what a joke. Ebay sucks for enforcement of bad sellers.

Before I started this thread, I could buy HG pairs for $40. 40% where fails if they where actually HG's. ALL where pulls! But after buying enough I could test and listen to assemble quality mtached pairs. See my Ebay history rb90002009. 

Not so anymore. But jacka** show up here occasionally with there bs $25/pr stories.

Yeah right. Good luck. You are lucky to pay $200/pr for a lottery ticket to a decent pair.


----------



## infohou

> <stuff removed>
> 
> Yeah right. Good luck. You are lucky to pay $200/pr for a lottery ticket to a decent pair.



 
"*There's a sucker born every minute*" is the phrase attributed to P. T. Barnum.  Apparently there is no evidence he actually said it.
 
I however have read the entire thread and appreciate the knowledge and advice given here.
 
I am breaking in some HD700 Sennheiser headphones connected to a new Valhalla 2 that I am also breaking in.  The Valhalla 2 came with Voskhod's with 75 on the front.  I will see if the best of my iPhone pics is worth posting.  The Valhalla 2 has about 120 hours on it and the HD700s have maybe 200 hours on them.  Since the Valhalla 2 arrived they have been on together only a bit less that 24x7.  The issues are too much bite to horns,etc., lower to mid treble peak, and weaker bass than I would prefer.  Also,  I am getting a sharp edge to the treble some of the time which is noticeable on cymbals.  Source is mainly 2010 MacBook Pro 17" i7 (maxxed out with SSD added internally) running MacOS Sierra playing Tidal HiFi and other streams to a Meridian Explorer2 USB DAC to the Valhalla 2 via Monster's lowend 3/8 to rca's cable that is connected to the line ins on the back of the Valhalla 2.
 
I don't want to loose the high end as I am someone who listened to loud rock during his youth and am enjoying hearing mostly all the cymbal work in the better Jazz recordings.  I would like smooth the upper mids and lower treble and add some additional weight to the bottom end.  Any ideas?
 
Overall I am enjoying the system.  By the way,  the Explorer2 sounds surprisingly good feeding the main HiFi.  And you folks should hear MQA.  Take it from an analog guy.
 
Thanks to RB2013 for starting this informative thread.
 
Y'all take care,
Robert A. Ober


----------



## rb2013

infohou said:


> > <stuff removed>
> >
> > Yeah right. Good luck. You are lucky to pay $200/pr for a lottery ticket to a decent pair.
> 
> ...


 

 Most likely the harshness in the treble is coming from the source chain.  I would look for some tubes in the 'Dutch' variety - Philips/Valvo/Amperex...they can tame a bright top end.
  
 Good luck


----------



## Naugrim

cheeseeater said:


> In case any tube rollers out there are interested, I'm selling a Cavalli Liquid Glass on EBay.


 
 Did you sell it? If so, for how much? I couldn't find one and just ordered a Mjolnir 2.


----------



## Naugrim

I know this is going to sound lazy, and I guess it is. But, what's the best quality 6922 tube I can get for my Mjolnir 2 by simply going to a website and ordering? I'm not interested in rolling, just pointing and clicking. Thanks in advance!


----------



## reddog

naugrim said:


> I know this is going to sound lazy, and I guess it is. But, what's the best quality 6922 tube I can get for my Mjolnir 2 by simply going to a website and ordering? I'm not interested in rolling, just pointing and clicking. Thanks in advance!



Well if you do not want to roll and get some superb NOS tubes, you could get some Genalex Gold Lion E88CC/ 6922 tubes, for about $49.95 a tube, from sites like Upscale Audio or Tube World/ Tubemonger.


----------



## cheeseeater

naugrim said:


> Did you sell it? If so, for how much? I couldn't find one and just ordered a Mjolnir 2.







naugrim said:


> I know this is going to sound lazy, and I guess it is. But, what's the best quality 6922 tube I can get for my Mjolnir 2 by simply going to a website and ordering? I'm not interested in rolling, just pointing and clicking. Thanks in advance!



Yep. Yep. I sold it, 2,550.
The second "yep" is that it does sound lazy. And I asked the exact same question many times. It's a perfectly reasonable question and it has no answer. Choice of cans, musical taste, volume levels, dac used; there is no answer because there are too many variables to consider. If there were such a thing as a best tube there would a best headphone. But different ears have different loves. The best you can do is feel around the descriptions and figure out what matters to you. There is some trial and error involved. Good luck.


----------



## cheeseeater

reddog said:


> Well if you do not want to roll and get some superb NOS tubes, you could get some Genalex Gold Lion E88CC/ 6922 tubes, for about $49.95 a tube, from sites like Upscale Audio or Tube World/ Tubemonger.



 This quote may be correct but I found listener's reviews more valuable than the recommendations of the merchant. Even the most well meaning merchant is influenced by the profitability of various tubes. It's only human.


----------



## reddog

cheeseeater said:


> This quote may be correct but I found listener's reviews more valuable than the recommendations of the merchant. Even the most well meaning merchant is influenced by the profitability of various tubes. It's only human.



I am not a merchant, but I like the gold lion because they are pretty easy to obtain and I like the way the tubes sound in my various amps. I use the Gold Lion for every day jamming and will use my NOS tubes for special occasions. I prefer using the Gold Lions in the Liquid Glass. I agree the merchant is influenced by the profitability of the various tubes. I also know one can sometime score a pair of NOS tubes for less than a pair of Gold Lions. I was very fortunate to get my NOS Telefunken E88CC tubes for relatively cheap, however I rarely use them.


----------



## Naugrim

reddog said:


> I am not a merchant, but I like the gold lion because they are pretty easy to obtain and I like the way the tubes sound in my various amps. I use the Gold Lion for every day jamming and will use my NOS tubes for special occasions. I prefer using the Gold Lions in the Liquid Glass. I agree the merchant is influenced by the profitability of the various tubes. I also know one can sometime score a pair of NOS tubes for less than a pair of Gold Lions. I was very fortunate to get my NOS Telefunken E88CC tubes for relatively cheap, however I rarely use them.


 
 When you say you "snagged" them, are you able to say how one might "snag" some for themselves? Is it all ebay or what? If these tubes are so old..how are they still available?


----------



## reddog

naugrim said:


> When you say you "snagged" them, are you able to say how one might "snag" some for themselves? Is it all ebay or what? If these tubes are so old..how are they still available?



Somebody I knew, was going into a assisted living facility and he sold me a extra pair for a very reasonable price, but I had been moving his stuff and watching his wife. I have never had any luck on EBay. That is the main reason I only have a few sets of tubes.


----------



## Naugrim

reddog said:


> Somebody I knew, was going into a assisted living facility and he sold me a extra pair for a very reasonable price, but I had been moving his stuff and watching his wife. I have never had any luck on EBay. That is the main reason I only have a few sets of tubes.


 
 Thats why I don't even want to try... lol


----------



## rb2013

reddog said:


> Well if you do not want to roll and get some superb NOS tubes, you could get some Genalex Gold Lion E88CC/ 6922 tubes, for about $49.95 a tube, from sites like Upscale Audio or Tube World/ Tubemonger.


Those suck...way over priced


----------



## rb2013

naugrim said:


> I know this is going to sound lazy, and I guess it is. But, what's the best quality 6922 tube I can get for my Mjolnir 2 by simply going to a website and ordering? I'm not interested in rolling, just pointing and clicking. Thanks in advance!


Brent Jesse Siemens 60's gray shields CCa's. Buy'em and forget tube rolling


----------



## reddog

rb2013 said:


> Brent Jesse Siemens 60's gray shields CCa's. Buy'em and forget tube rolling



I need to try out these tubes. Rather have these tubes than the Gold Lions.


----------



## thecrow

naugrim said:


> Thats why I don't even want to try... lol


 

 That's what i was worried about when i first started with tubes 2 years ago. And bought some from Brent Jessee who was very useful
  
 But they are a lot cheaper on ebay.
  
 You_ should _be fine - just stick to sellers that sell a lot of tubes and have a great history - as in 99.8% success.
  
 And you can always ask here or in the "Schiit Lyr tube rollers" thread or even in a woo wa2 thread about any experiences with particular buyers.
 There are a lot of compulsive, addicted tube buyers that are always part of the thread - they probably call ourselves themselves tube connoisseurs, rather than addicts. They can usually give you some sound advice.
  
 and of course you can always look for sellers with very strong histories that also accept refunds (listed on their items) if there is an issue. You also always have the paypal protection too.
  
 at the end of the day i won't say it's 100% foolproof but by exercising a good level of caution you should be fine
  
 anyway that's my 2c worth


----------



## TK16

reddog said:


> I need to try out these tubes. Rather have these tubes than the Gold Lions.


 
 I would not bite on his website for $600 for 60`s grey`s. Too much imo.


----------



## Naugrim

tk16 said:


> I would not bite on his website for $600 for 60`s grey`s. Too much imo.


Yea, a little rich for my blood.


----------



## rb2013

reddog said:


> I need to try out these tubes. Rather have these tubes than the Gold Lions.


 

 I had the GL's and really not much better then ave NOS OG's or VR's
  
 You can find the CCa Gray's cheaper on Ebay - but  Buyer beware


----------



## rb2013

thecrow said:


> That's what i was worried about when i first started with tubes 2 years ago. And bought some from Brent Jessee who was very useful
> 
> But they are a lot cheaper on ebay.
> 
> ...


 

 Get access to a good tube tester if you buy off Ebay.  How do you know what you are getting otherwise? 
  
 These Ebay dealer know you don't so can post any test reading they choose - and know that 99% of the buyers won't verify the tubes life left and/or quality.
  
 Take it from a guy who has bought 100's of tubes off Ebay


----------



## r2muchstuff

rb2013 said:


> Ok Had a chance to do a little tube rolling ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I now have 80 hours on a pair of these in the Mjolnir 2.
 I have also operated with 6N3P-E and 5670W in Lyr 2, Valhalla 2, and MJ2.
  
 This is not an endorsement of the use of any of these in the MJ2, Lyr 2 and Valhalla 2.  Proceed at your own risk, or not.  Ask Schiit.
  
 YMMV & JMTC,
  
 r2


----------



## rb2013

r2muchstuff said:


> I now have 80 hours on a pair of these in the Mjolnir 2.
> I have also operated with 6N3P-E and 5670W in Lyr 2, Valhalla 2, and MJ2.
> 
> This is not an endorsement of the use of any of these in the MJ2, Lyr 2 and Valhalla 2.  Proceed at your own risk, or not.  Ask Schiit.
> ...


 

 And how do you like the SQ?


----------



## r2muchstuff

rb2013 said:


> And how do you like the SQ?


 

 In my quest to find tubes that bring my Sennheiser HD 650 to life, I would place these near the top.  I run the 650s balanced out of the Mjolnir 2 from Gungnir Multibit using USB and Apple Lossless.
  
 Your statement "Rich harmonics, deep bass, nice detail - a true bargain for around $50/pr." is right on target, at least with the HD 650.
  
 A surprise is that the Beyerdynamic T 1.2 single ended out of the MJ is responding well to these tubes also.  The treble is well contained and the bass is rich.
  
 Have some GE JAN - 5670W NOS - 1988 that will go in the MJ next.  If they settle in as well as the 396A, a I have real bargain going 
  
 YMMV & JMTC,
  
 r2


----------



## rb2013

r2muchstuff said:


> In my quest to find tubes that bring my Sennheiser HD 650 to life, I would place these near the top.  I run the 650s balanced out of the Mjolnir 2 from Gungnir Multibit using USB and Apple Lossless.
> 
> Your statement "Rich harmonics, deep bass, nice detail - a true bargain for around $50/pr." is right on target, at least with the HD 650.
> 
> ...


 

 Good stuff!  Maybe try some vintage 6N3P's?


----------



## winders

Does anyone have a single REFLEKTOR 75 "HG" for sale? I would like to have one to try out. Failing that, does anyone know where I might be able to buy one without risking buying from a Russian eBay seller?
  
 Thanks!


----------



## TK16

winders said:


> Does anyone have a single REFLEKTOR 75 "HG" for sale? I would like to have one to try out. Failing that, does anyone know where I might be able to buy one without risking buying from a Russian eBay seller?
> 
> Thanks!


 
 These 2 ebay dealers sold me noisy tubes. Svetlana and JetParts. Stay away from them, maybe somebody here has a spare Reflektor. Do not think those 2 sellers test for noise or microphonics.


----------



## rb2013

tk16 said:


> These 2 ebay dealers sold me noisy tubes. Svetlana and JetParts. Stay away from them, maybe somebody here has a spare Reflektor. Do not think those 2 sellers test for noise or microphonics.


 

 I know they don't - same experience.


----------



## DecentLevi

Wouldn't this one be equal to the 1975 6N23P? (though made in 74)
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-x-6N23P-6DJ8-ECC88-MATCHED-PAIR-REFLEKTOR-Single-Wire-1974-SilverShield-/182400627190
  
 Though it is from JetParts, not sure this guarantees noisy microphonics.
  
 PS- I've already got my holy grail, just tryin' to help out others who are interested elsewhere


----------



## winders

decentlevi said:


> Wouldn't this one be equal to the 1975 6N23P? (though made in 74)
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-x-6N23P-6DJ8-ECC88-MATCHED-PAIR-REFLEKTOR-Single-Wire-1974-SilverShield-/182400627190
> 
> Though it is from JetParts, not sure this guarantees noisy microphonics.
> ...


 

 No, those are the 74 version. They finished in 4th place in the big review that is post #1 of this thread. I asked Bob about them and he told me that, no, they are not as good as the 75.


----------



## DecentLevi

Yes I've personally been lucky enough to attain the '75 holy grail version thanks to the first post leading me there; but was under the pretense that the '74 version may sound the same being they appear to be identical internally. Guess somehow there may be a difference though between those.
  
 Here's a couple photos of my 6N23P pair I've acquired, in case anyone wants to confirm these are the holy grail? 
  
 
  
  
  
 I've yet the chance to hear these solo, but they're doing an immaculate job as drivers in my Elise OTL tube amp. I have the same as the version on the left of the photo lower right. They are a "Matched PAIR REFLEKTOR SingleWire SilverShield 1975 #4" from Svetlana_UA seller on eBay... and I've not noticed any noise issues in the month I've owned them.


----------



## winders

Is this a really good Siemens CCa and worth more than a "normal" CCa or is it just a rare novelty that sounds no better or worse?
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-nos-tube-Siemens-CCa-E88CC-6922-71-4-from-50s-rare-edition-/112264633268?hash=item1a237e5bb4:g:0KoAAOSwopRYdRvv


----------



## rb2013

decentlevi said:


> Yes I've personally been lucky enough to attain the '75 holy grail version thanks to the first post leading me there; but was under the pretense that the '74 version may sound the same being they appear to be identical internally. Guess somehow there may be a difference though between those.
> 
> Here's a couple photos of my 6N23P pair I've acquired, in case anyone wants to confirm these are the holy grail?
> 
> ...


 

 Nice photos!  Well the issue with old Svetlana go beyond just noise and micro-phonics - his matching and reported test results are a joke.  Better get them tested and see the section matching and tube balance.  Weak section matching will muddy the outstanding class leading clarity of these tubes - details become masked and the holographic effect diminished.


----------



## kolkoo

rb2013 said:


> Nice photos!  Well the issue with old Svetlana go beyond just noise and micro-phonics - his matching and reported test results are a joke.  Better get them tested and see the section matching and tube balance.  Weak section matching will muddy the outstanding class leading clarity of these tubes - details become masked and the holographic effect diminished.


 
 You know I always wondered why their matching is bad, it can't be the tester L3-3 is a wonderful tester, if calibrated properly of course, seems unlikely that they would also lie in the auctions... so not sure what the problem is there


----------



## rb2013

kolkoo said:


> You know I always wondered why their matching is bad, it can't be the tester L3-3 is a wonderful tester, if calibrated properly of course, seems unlikely that they would also lie in the auctions... so not sure what the problem is there


 

 I'd love to get my hands on a L-3 calibrated.  It is a wonderful MT tester.
  
 They're just con artists and hustlers.
  
 They know that 99% of their buyers don't have testers.  At least with noise you can hear that.
  
 Trouble is returning, and proof of return to Ukraine is not easy. I tried - the USPS Postal clerk wanted me to fill out State Dept info for shipping there!


----------



## mateusfig

Hello. I just received some 6n23p tubes and I'm trying to install one on my Bravo v3 (accept 6922 tubes). I can't bias and the sound go out only from one channel always. I tried 3 diferent units of 6n23p. The "bad" channel bias is around 23v!! The "normal" channel bias is around 12v. When I move the pot to adjust the bias, nothing happens to this bad channel.
  
 Anybody could help me?


----------



## infohou

Uh,  sucka broke?


----------



## infohou

rb2013 said:


> Most likely the harshness in the treble is coming from the source chain.  I would look for some tubes in the 'Dutch' variety - Philips/Valvo/Amperex...they can tame a bright top end.
> 
> Good luck


 
  
 Nope,  was apparently a streaming anomaly as I heard on it my pro video system as well but the issue has not re-occurred in weeks.  It wasn't a normal hardness, more like high frequency shriek added to the sound.
  
 One of the '75 Rockets went bad so the fine folks at Schiit sent a new foursome.  The input tubes are 75 and 77 Novosibirsk which had me concerned but they appear to be matched.  I was overall concerned as the '75 Rockets did sound good once they were fully broken in.  Could have been stronger on the bottom end.
  
 Surprisingly, the Novosibirsks are at least as good as the Rockets.  Partly due to Schiit matching the inputs to outputs I would guess.  The Novosibirsks actually sound a bit more extended on the top.  Not bright like too much mid treble, but more extended as in more cymbal detail.  The high end also seems crisper without being dry.
  
 You folks take care


----------



## Thenazgul

Do they look authentic ? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Siemens-CCa-/122355023817?hash=item1c7ced7fc9:g:qJMAAOSwWxNYofxs


----------



## winders

thenazgul said:


> Do they look authentic ? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Siemens-CCa-/122355023817?hash=item1c7ced7fc9:g:qJMAAOSwWxNYofxs


 

 Yes, they look real. They aren't the better "gray shield" version from the early 60's though. Also, at least one of the tubes looks cracked when looking at the bottom. Maybe both. I took a photo of the bottom of one of my CCa's and did not see the same cracked look. I, personally, would not bid on them.
  
 Here are three very important traits all Siemens Halske tubes must have:
  
 1. They have the four ridges on the top of the tube emanating from the center. 
 2. The circular getter base has the raised rectangles sections opposite of each other. 
 3. They have numbers molded into the inside bottom of the tubes.


----------



## Thenazgul

winders said:


> Yes, they look real. They aren't the better "gray shield" version from the early 60's though. Also, at least one of the tubes looks cracked when looking at the bottom. Maybe both. I took a photo of the bottom of one of my CCa's and did not see the same cracked look. I, personally, would not bid on them.
> 
> Here are three very important traits all Siemens Halske tubes must have:
> 
> ...


 
 Thank you for the information. Hopefully we have soon-ish a new bid auction on some E188CC Telefunken/Siemens/Philips or Siemens CCa's. Next month I place my order for new DAC/AMP (Gungnir Multibit + Mjolnir 2) . And these stock-tubes of Schiit delivered are really really bad.


----------



## DWbirdseye

Anyone know why rb2013 was banned?


----------



## MWSVette

dwbirdseye said:


> Anyone know why rb2013 was banned?


 
 See this post,
  
http://www.head-fi.org/t/829639/usb-strikes-back-watch-out-aoip-usb-ethernet-chain-beats-all-at-least-for-me/555#post_13217528


----------



## mateusfig

infohou said:


> Uh,  sucka broke?


 
 I don't know what happened but appears it's working now LOL Maybe the tubes lot I bought was bad?| the 8th (I bought 8 6n23p) tube worked fine.


----------



## DWbirdseye

mwsvette said:


> dwbirdseye said:
> 
> 
> > Anyone know why rb2013 was banned?
> ...




Too bad, his contribution to the community was outstanding and his critical analysis skills were 2nd to none. I know for myself I rely on trustworthy opinions to make important buying decisions. In the end everybody is allowed to express an opinion, but some carry a lot more weight than others. Rob's Tube Review is one that I have in hard copy and refer to whenever I consider a new tube purchase.


----------



## MWSVette

dwbirdseye said:


> Too bad, his contribution to the community was outstanding and his critical analysis skills were 2nd to none. I know for myself I rely on trustworthy opinions to make important buying decisions. In the end everybody is allowed to express an opinion, but some carry a lot more weight than others. Rob's Tube Review is one that I have in hard copy and refer to whenever I consider a new tube purchase.


 

 Agreed...


----------



## winders

dwbirdseye said:


> Too bad, his contribution to the community was outstanding and his critical analysis skills were 2nd to none. I know for myself I rely on trustworthy opinions to make important buying decisions. In the end everybody is allowed to express an opinion, but some carry a lot more weight than others. Rob's Tube Review is one that I have in hard copy and refer to whenever I consider a new tube purchase.


 
  
  


mwsvette said:


> Agreed...


 

 Ditto!!
  
 I joined up over at his new forum home just so I can interact with him. I know I bring nothing to the table as his knowledge and experience far surpass mine. His advice has been invaluable. He can be a pain in the butt, but so can I!


----------



## Thenazgul

Alright bought some Siemens CCA's, Grey-shields A0-revision. (check)

 - End of march the Gungnir Multibit and Mjolnir 2 (and Wyrd)
 - End of april Eve Audio SC305 speakers and stands.
 - End of may another Sennheiser HD800S.

 This will be all connected to my other high-end system.

 Lets go XLR-balanced.


----------



## Rozenberg

Anyone know if these Amperex are the same albeit one is orange label?
 Seller only says 2x Amperex USA 6922 (E88CC/CCa), Gold pins, gray shield.
 Tube 1: 10,5/11,0 mA
 Tube 2: 11,0/10,5 mA
  

  
 Am looking to replace the ECC81 in my SOHA to ECC88 variants by switching the heater jumper.
 Though I don't really want to spend a lot on em so pretty much I'm just looking at tubes with great value.
  
 Thanks.


----------



## winders

Look at the Getter support. They are different so the tubes are not the same.


----------



## Rozenberg

Thanks for the answer. I guess gotta scratch it off the list then.
  
 Time to go for the ECC88 Bugle Boy then, or is there other tubes that known to have better value for like $80/80€ a pair?
 Been trying to find a pair of Reflektor '75 back then but kinda hard to find in EU...


----------



## TK16

rozenberg said:


> Thanks for the answer. I guess gotta scratch it off the list then.
> 
> Time to go for the ECC88 Bugle Boy then, or is there other tubes that known to have better value for like $80/80€ a pair?
> Been trying to find a pair of Reflektor '75 back then but kinda hard to find in EU...


 
 Here is a pair of 74`s if your interested. I liked them better than the 75`s before I got rid of em.
 Rob is the seller.
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/6N23P-74-Reflektor-SWGP-Gray-Shields-US-SELLER-ECC88-6922-CCa-E188CC-/232257186036


----------



## MattRG

I have a pair of 75's in my Lyr 2 and I absolutely love them.  I've been tempted to pick up another 74 or 75 pair but the pair I have has less than 500 hours on them so hopefully they are good to go for a nice long time yet.


----------



## Rozenberg

tk16 said:


> Here is a pair of 74`s if your interested. I liked them better than the 75`s before I got rid of em.
> Rob is the seller.
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/6N23P-74-Reflektor-SWGP-Gray-Shields-US-SELLER-ECC88-6922-CCa-E188CC-/232257186036




lol it got sold when I was asleep.
Oh well, I don't really want to import anyway.

Also does anyone know the current price of a pair of Reflektor '75 recently?


----------



## notfitforpublic

rozenberg said:


> lol it got sold when I was asleep.
> Oh well, I don't really want to import anyway.
> 
> Also does anyone know the current price of a pair of Reflektor '75 recently?


 

 Bought 2 pairs of 74's from a member here for $100 each shipped. Think he was selling 75's for $125 shipped at the time.


----------



## Rozenberg

notfitforpublic said:


> Bought 2 pairs of 74's from a member here for $100 each shipped. Think he was selling 75's for $125 shipped at the time.


 
 Yeah, from @kolkoo I assume? I just bought a pair of new '75 from him as well.
 Can't wait to test it, hopefully it's everything what I'd hoped for.


----------



## notfitforpublic

rozenberg said:


> Yeah, from @kolkoo I assume? I just bought a pair of new '75 from him as well.
> Can't wait to test it, hopefully it's everything what I'd hoped for.


 

 Yup, great guy. Nothing but good things to say about him and the tubes I received.


----------



## winders

rozenberg said:


> Yeah, from @kolkoo I assume? I just bought a pair of new '75 from him as well.
> Can't wait to test it, hopefully it's everything what I'd hoped for.


 
  
  


notfitforpublic said:


> Yup, great guy. Nothing but good things to say about him and the tubes I received.


 

 Yes, kolkoo is great! I have purchased from him and he stands behind what he sells.


----------



## ScareDe2

By far the best result I had is to pair tubes from different year/brand.  What I can do is put a reflektor 75 on the right channel and try every other tubes that I have on the left channel one by one. Reflektor 75 and 74 pair very well together. But lately I discovered an AMAZING pairing. The reflektor 75 with a reflektor EV from year 1988. Very 3 dimensional sound, every part of the music make sens togheter, and I can feel an effortless seperation between the parts but also the environment in which the music was recorded like if the sound was bouncing on the walls. Very immersive. Tonality speaking it's not exactly perfect, the mediums, depending on the recording can hit quite aggressively. Snare drums can be killing at times. But on most high quality recordings it's close to perfection 
   
The reflektor 75 also pair well with pretty much all the tubes that I have, Orange Globes and Amperex PQ usa.

  
 Any thought on this kind of pairing?


----------



## TK16

winders said:


> Yes, kolkoo is great! I have purchased from him and he stands behind what he sells.


 

 Me too got a great pair of Heerlen Valvo E88CC 1959 D-getters.


----------



## LouisArmstrong

I have the Siemens CCa's and the Telefunken CCa's. Presumably the best of all 6922's, no?


----------



## kolkoo

There is no best - to me Siemens CCa sounds the same as Siemens E88CC we are talking equally testing tubes. 
To other people it sounds better. 

Siemens CCa is a top tube no doubt but I can name at least 5-10 better in my book, so it is all based on what you can find and how well it fits your overall system and sound signature preference


----------



## MWSVette

LouisArmstrong said:


> I have the Siemens CCa's and the Telefunken CCa's. Presumably the best of all 6922's, no?





kolkoo said:


> There is no best - to me Siemens CCa sounds the same as Siemens E88CC we are talking equally testing tubes.
> To other people it sounds better.
> 
> Siemens CCa is a top tube no doubt but I can name at least 5-10 better in my book, so it is all based on what you can find and how well it fits your overall system and sound signature preference



Agreed.  Depends most on personal preference and system.

Do love my CCa's...


----------



## ostewart

Quick question for you 6922 tube rollers. I have the Feliks Audio Espressivo, and am still trying to find the right combo.

I have the stock tubes, 6N1P-EV dated 86 I think, which are a nice linear sounding tube.

I then got some 6N23P Voskhod's which were lusher and worked well with my Amirons at the time.

I have since moved to Grados and can't get it right,

I got a pair of these: https://www.langrex.co.uk/products/e88cc-tesla-goldpin-nos/ and although the mids are lush, they lack sparkle.

Any suggestions for a more neutral sounding tube, I know I could go solid state but I love this amp, and it has been with me for a couple of years and works really well with quite a few headphones.


----------



## kolkoo

ostewart said:


> Quick question for you 6922 tube rollers. I have the Feliks Audio Espressivo, and am still trying to find the right combo.
> 
> I have the stock tubes, 6N1P-EV dated 86 I think, which are a nice linear sounding tube.
> 
> ...



If you bought these exact tubes pictured then they are actually Siemens A-Frame 1970s 1980s (depending on what it says on the metal plate we can tell which year they are from) . Funny thing my experience with these Siemens is that they are more on the analytical side with an almost harsh high end and very slightly lushier mids, but my pair was early 1970s.


----------



## HeavenNotes

ostewart said:


> Quick question for you 6922 tube rollers. I have the Feliks Audio Espressivo, and am still trying to find the right combo.
> 
> I have the stock tubes, 6N1P-EV dated 86 I think, which are a nice linear sounding tube.
> 
> ...


Hello

I have Grados's and my best sound is with my Mac Book Pro a silver USB cable and my Tube Amp with my CCs gem.  You will never regret it the investment.


----------



## Oscar-HiFi (May 30, 2017)

kolkoo said:


> If you bought these exact tubes pictured then they are actually Siemens A-Frame 1970s 1980s (depending on what it says on the metal plate we can tell which year they are from) . Funny thing my experience with these Siemens is that they are more on the analytical side with an almost harsh high end and very slightly lushier mids, but my pair was early 1970s.



I did buy those exact tubes. Interesting they are Siemans. The mid range is beautiful but they lack some sparkle (to be honest I've only given them a couple of hours use so far) - do you think it would be good to run them in, or try and sell them on?

I am back using the stock driver tubes (6N1P-EV), with some better power tubes: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/331621071562?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

With the stock tubes, no lack of treble but it's not overly detailed.


----------



## LouisArmstrong

I use four Siemens CCa's on my Cavalli Liquid Fire. People say that the amp does not actually produce the tube sound and it is what I am hearing as well - just a very clear natural sound. I know nothing about its circuitry but would it be a waste for 4 Siemens CCA's to be put in it?


----------



## Oscar-HiFi

LouisArmstrong said:


> I use four Siemens CCa's on my Cavalli Liquid Fire. People say that the amp does not actually produce the tube sound and it is what I am hearing as well - just a very clear natural sound. I know nothing about its circuitry but would it be a waste for 4 Siemens CCA's to be put in it?



It would be a waste of my money 

More than the amp cost me... trying the keep the costs down.

I could run other tubes, like 6SN7 with adaptors to be honest.


----------



## MWSVette (Jun 2, 2017)

LouisArmstrong said:


> I use four Siemens CCa's on my Cavalli Liquid Fire. People say that the amp does not actually produce the tube sound and it is what I am hearing as well - just a very clear natural sound. I know nothing about its circuitry but would it be a waste for 4 Siemens CCA's to be put in it?



The CCa's are some of the best vintage tubes you can get in 6DJ8 family.  However, if you cannot hear the difference buy the least expensive tubes that you can find that have a sound signature you enjoy....


----------



## LouisArmstrong (Jun 5, 2017)

Thanks dudes - Compared with the 12AX7s on my McIntosh, I am not hearing as much difference between 6922 tubes. My C2300 preamp is currently served by a pair of vintage Goldlion B759 12AX7s. Not even the vintage Marconi tubes, the legendary Telefunken 803S or the gold pin 10M Mullards can touch them. Not even close. The difference is big. Maybe it's because I am using the CCa's on a headphone amp and the 12AX7s on a speaker system, that may be why the difference is much more prominent on the 12AX7's. Sylvania 12AX7s always have a special place in my heart though. The bass is just so good.


----------



## HeavenNotes

LouisArmstrong said:


> Thanks dudes - Compared with the 12AX7s on my McIntosh, I am not hearing as much difference between 6922 tubes. My C2300 preamp is currently served by a pair of vintage Goldlion B759 12AX7s. Not even the vintage Marconi tubes, the legendary Telefunken 803S or the gold pin 10M Mullards can touch them. Not even close. The difference is big. Maybe it's because I am using the CCa's on a headphone amp and the 12AX7s on a speaker system, that may be why the difference is much more prominent on the 12AX7's. Sylvania 12AX7s always have a special place in my heart though. The bass is just so good.



Using the T1 the difference is huge.  CCs is earth to heaven compared with my other tubes.


----------



## winders

HeavenNotes said:


> Using the T1 the difference is huge.  CCs is earth to heaven compared with my other tubes.



Nice pair for sale here:

https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/fs-siemens-halske-cca-matched-pair-nos.851910/


----------



## ostewart

I just posted a review up of the iFi Audio NOS 6922 tubes: https://www.head-fi.org/f/showcase/ifi-audio-nos-6922-valves.22541/reviews#review-18909


----------



## winders

ostewart said:


> I just posted a review up of the iFi Audio NOS 6922 tubes: https://www.head-fi.org/f/showcase/ifi-audio-nos-6922-valves.22541/reviews#review-18909



Those General Electric 5670 tubes are not a very good example of 5670 tubes. I would recommend you getting some 5670 to 6922 adapters and trying NOS Western Electric 396A (D Getter) tubes or NOS
General Electric 5670WA (5 Star, Triple Mica) tubes. Both are far better than the tubes iFi has chosen.


----------



## ostewart

winders said:


> Those General Electric 5670 tubes are not a very good example of 5670 tubes. I would recommend you getting some 5670 to 6922 adapters and trying NOS Western Electric 396A (D Getter) tubes or NOS
> General Electric 5670WA (5 Star, Triple Mica) tubes. Both are far better than the tubes iFi has chosen.




Thanks for the feedback, I would love to try them but I have no money  these iFi ones are good enough for now


----------



## yangian

winders said:


> Those General Electric 5670 tubes are not a very good example of 5670 tubes. I would recommend you getting some 5670 to 6922 adapters and trying NOS Western Electric 396A (D Getter) tubes or NOS
> General Electric 5670WA (5 Star, Triple Mica) tubes. Both are far better than the tubes iFi has chosen.



I got a pair 396A and I agree they are great. But you are misleading when you claim GE5670 is not very good. 5670s are only $4 on ebay, and 396As usually is more than 10 times price than 5670! Don't we expect 396A to be better? Actually compared to 5670, their price cannot justify their sound quality.


----------



## winders

yangian said:


> I got a pair 396A and I agree they are great. But you are misleading when you claim GE5670 is not very good. 5670s are only $4 on ebay, and 396As usually is more than 10 times price than 5670! Don't we expect 396A to be better? Actually compared to 5670, their price cannot justify their sound quality.



I guess you and I place different values on sound quality. I don't care if the GE5670 cost 50 cents a pair. They just don't sound good enough to use compared to the other options out there.


----------



## yangian

winders said:


> I guess you and I place different values on sound quality. I don't care if the GE5670 cost 50 cents a pair. They just don't sound good enough to use compared to the other options out there.



Yes. Cost-effective is the first consideration for me to buy sth. I'm not a "tuhao."


----------



## winders

yangian said:


> Yes. Cost-effective is the first consideration for me to buy sth. I'm not a "tuhao."



Cheap does not necessarily equal cost effective. You don't have to be wealthy to buy decent tubes. I am not talking about spending $200 for a pair of tubes. You can get the GE tubes I mentioned for $30 a pair. The iFi GE5670 tubes are $100 per pair. Heck, you can get the awesome Western Electric 396A tubes for less than $99.


----------



## yangian

winders said:


> Cheap does not necessarily equal cost effective. You don't have to be wealthy to buy decent tubes. I am not talking about spending $200 for a pair of tubes. You can get the GE tubes I mentioned for $30 a pair. The iFi GE5670 tubes are $100 per pair. Heck, you can get the awesome Western Electric 396A tubes for less than $99.



But ebay has $4 5670 and have sold several thousands! Why buy those expensive items.
BTW, my pair of 396A was bid with very low price since only one person to bid with me.  396A is great indeed.


----------



## AuditoryCanvas

Can anyone help identify these 6n3p tubes? The brand is apparently ELECTRONORGTECNIKA, for which I can only find one reference to in a 1973 Computerworld magazine, who were a "Soviet foreign trade organization that handles electronic equipment."

I got them for $5 a pair. They look totally brand new, so new, they look possibly fake, but the boxes and paper specs inside look pretty old, and I can't imagine anyone bothering to produce fakes and hten sell them so cheaply, although my knowledge is limited, I've only been into this tube world for a few months. 

They sound pretty incredible, better than my favorite pair of Voskhod 76 6n23p rockets. Wide soundstage, great top and a really great bottom end, clean mids, quite holographic, and great detail. For the price, I'm totally stunned. I'm using them in a Mjolnir 2, with 5670 to 6992 adapters.

I've been on a spree of around 30 plus russian tube pairs at varying prices, and these just really standout over just about all of them. 

Does anyone know anything about these or the brand?


----------



## kolkoo

They look like ordinary 6N3Ps except made for export as you can tell by the nickel pins. Should try the 6N3P-E s and compare them with these. The consensus on the other threads is that the 6N3P-Es are the best of the "6N3P" variations but not much collective research has gone into this. Mostly we trust @rnros ' opinion


----------



## AuditoryCanvas (Oct 17, 2017)

kolkoo said:


> They look like ordinary 6N3Ps except made for export as you can tell by the nickel pins. Should try the 6N3P-E s and compare them with these. The consensus on the other threads is that the 6N3P-Es are the best of the "6N3P" variations but not much collective research has gone into this. Mostly we trust @rnros ' opinion



Thanks very much for the info, interesting about the pins. I'm curious if they're branded from a different manufacturer? They look almost identical to some 6n3p reflectors I have, but sound much better.

I have some 6n3p-e and -ev on the way, so I'm keen to hear them if you suggest they may sound better than the 6n3p.

I have 12 pairs of 6n23p from various manufacturers and years, but these outshine all of them so far.


----------



## kolkoo (Oct 17, 2017)

Do you have to so called HGs (1975  Reflektor SWGPs) ?  I have a few pairs of HGs with nickel pins made for export and also some with steel pins. For similar testing HGs - steel and nickel pins both sound the same to me.

For the 6N3Ps they should be made by the same people, maybe they test better, it's hard to tell why they sound better.The ones you linked look to be Voskhod made. Maybe your other pairs are Reflektors? Post a picture here.


I have a pack of 25 Reflektor 6N3P-Es and they are great, I've also tried every russian tube there is from the 6N23P and the HGs are the best. The 6N3P-E is really close however and at 2$ a pop it's an insane deal.

Edit 5: On the other hand I can barely find any 6N3PXXX tubes that were not made by Reflektor, Saratov. But these don't seem to have the little Reflektor logo on top... Maybe the ones for export were made in the Voskhod factory.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/6N3P-E-6N3P...316805?hash=item33d7784a05:g:obAAAOSwX61ZB65z 
This polish auction for  6N3P-E claims they are from Voskhod and they also have nickel pins and look like they are made for export.


----------



## AuditoryCanvas

Well, it turns out the reflector 6n3p I  said looks identical, are actually 6n23p-e....they're from 87, I definitely think these 6n3p with the nickel pins sound much better, perhaps because of the older year? I'm curious to hear a few more pairs, perhaps older ones. I have found a good bit of difference from the various rockets I have, even some from the same year sounding way better over others. Perhaps some of them were better matched than others.

I don't have the Reflector 75's, I have a few slightly older ones, some silver shield, some single wire, but I prefer the 76 Voskhod Rockets I have to all the reflectors to be honest. Not that the Reflectors sound bad, the rockets just seem to have a more magical sparkle to them.

What I find almost amusing is that I prefer almost all of the russian tubes I have over a platinum pair of '64 Amperex Jan 7308s from Upscale.






This tube addiction is getting really expensive, haha, but so much fun.


----------



## kolkoo

Haaa! Really expensive you say  If most of your tubes are Russians you have barely scraped the surface, don't get too addicted though or you will end up like me or like @TK16 who is lurking this thread right now!
I suggest you check out the Lyr 2 tube rollers thread https://www.head-fi.org/threads/schiit-lyr-tube-rollers.673709 if you want more ideas - the current trend is 2C51 tubes such as the 6N3Ps you enjoy.


----------



## AuditoryCanvas

kolkoo said:


> Haaa! Really expensive you say  If most of your tubes are Russians you have barely scraped the surface, don't get too addicted though or you will end up like me or like @TK16 who is lurking this thread right now!
> I suggest you check out the Lyr 2 tube rollers thread https://www.head-fi.org/threads/schiit-lyr-tube-rollers.673709 if you want more ideas - the current trend is 2C51 tubes such as the 6N3Ps you enjoy.



Yeah, I recently grabbed some GE 5670, and some '62 Raytheon CK5670s when i got the adapters. I quite like the Raytheons, the GEs were nothing to write home about. I've been trying to find a good pair of Western Electrics that don't cost a testicle. Also have some Philips 6992s, and the Schiit LISSTs. I overpaid for some of the older Rockets I have, but they were kind of worth it.


----------



## AuditoryCanvas

kolkoo said:


> Edit 5: On the other hand I can barely find any 6N3PXXX tubes that were not made by Reflektor, Saratov. But these don't seem to have the little Reflektor logo on top... Maybe the ones for export were made in the Voskhod factory.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/6N3P-E-6N3P...316805?hash=item33d7784a05:g:obAAAOSwX61ZB65z
> This polish auction for  6N3P-E claims they are from Voskhod and they also have nickel pins and look like they are made for export.



I just found these, which are totally identical, exact same markings, ink, placement etc, only difference is the October logo is missing, which makes sense if they were for export?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/8-x-6N3P-Do...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2648


----------



## kolkoo

AuditoryCanvas said:


> I just found these, which are totally identical, exact same markings, ink, placement etc, only difference is the October logo is missing, which makes sense if they were for export?
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/8-x-6N3P-Double-triode-tubes-6CC42-ECC42-SELECTED-BY-DATE-AUG-1975-y-p/252575332505?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2648



I guess they were made in the October factory. So if your other 6N3Ps were Reflektors maybe that could lead to the sonic difference. I bought  2*8 of these so I can test and match them and see if I like their sound.


----------



## AuditoryCanvas

kolkoo said:


> I guess they were made in the October factory. So if your other 6N3Ps were Reflektors maybe that could lead to the sonic difference. I bought  2*8 of these so I can test and match them and see if I like their sound.



oh, cool. I have 8 of those on the way as well. I have 4 more pairs of the ones I originally posted about heading my way in the mail, if you want me to send you a pair when they arrive?


----------



## TK16

kolkoo said:


> Haaa! Really expensive you say  If most of your tubes are Russians you have barely scraped the surface, don't get too addicted though or you will end up like me or like @TK16 who is lurking this thread right now!
> I suggest you check out the Lyr 2 tube rollers thread https://www.head-fi.org/threads/schiit-lyr-tube-rollers.673709 if you want more ideas - the current trend is 2C51 tubes such as the 6N3Ps you enjoy.


Found out the hard way some of the very best tubes I like cost a fraction of the 6922 variants and most sound better imo. My Bendix 2C51 pair is harsh on the highs, do not care much for the GE 5670 square getters. Everything else has been home run after home run. WE JW 396A square getter, CBS 5670 square getter, Tung Sol 2C51 square getter. Quite impressed with the Reflektor 6N3P-E. Better than my Reflektor 74 and 75 pairs. 6N23P swgp silver shield and a mere fraction what these expensive 6N23P. Dirt cheap.


----------



## AuditoryCanvas

TK16 said:


> Found out the hard way some of the very best tubes I like cost a fraction of the 6922 variants and most sound better imo. My Bendix 2C51 pair is harsh on the highs, do not care much for the GE 5670 square getters. Everything else has been home run after home run. WE JW 396A square getter, CBS 5670 square getter, Tung Sol 2C51 square getter. Quite impressed with the Reflektor 6N3P-E. Better than my Reflektor 74 and 75 pairs. 6N23P swgp silver shield and a mere fraction what these expensive 6N23P. Dirt cheap.



That's good to hear, I was beginning to wonder if I was crazy liking the 'cheaper' tubes to the expensive ones. My favorites so far are a magical pair of Voskhod '76 6n23p rockets, and these new 6n3ps. Both surprising though, as they both sound so much better than other rockets and 6n3ps I have, and were also cheaper than all of them. I nearly bought some Tung Sol recently, if you're rating them, then there's a good chance I'll like them by the sound of your preferences. 

The pair of 6n3p-e Reflectors I have are from '87, and don't sound as good as my '76 6n23p rockets or these '75 6n3p, I have some older ones being shipped at the moment, hopefully they're better than the '87s I have. Also have some '70s Voskhod 6n3p on the way.


----------



## doraymon

New to tube rolling here and my first tube amp is on the way (a hybrid class A headphone amp, Pathos Aurium with 6922 tubes).

Can you suggest where I can safely buy tubes online?
It would be great if someone could suggest an "upgrade strategy", how do I move depending on how I want to tune the sound signature or sound characteristics?

Thanks


----------



## HeavenNotes

doraymon said:


> New to tube rolling here and my first tube amp is on the way (a hybrid class A headphone amp, Pathos Aurium with 6922 tubes).
> 
> Can you suggest where I can safely buy tubes online?
> It would be great if someone could suggest an "upgrade strategy", how do I move depending on how I want to tune the sound signature or sound characteristics?
> ...


https://www.upscaleaudio.com


----------



## doraymon

HeavenNotes said:


> https://www.upscaleaudio.com


Thanks. 
Is it normal that two good gold pin tubes cost like half the price of the amp?
Is that a proportion you would accept? 
In other words, why not investing that money to buy a better amp...? 
Sorry for the silly question as I said I'm a newbie at tube rolling!


----------



## thecrow

doraymon said:


> Thanks.
> Is it normal that two good gold pin tubes cost like half the price of the amp?
> Is that a proportion you would accept?
> In other words, why not investing that money to buy a better amp...?
> Sorry for the silly question as I said I'm a newbie at tube rolling!


Upscale audio is overpriced. 

For info on 6922 tubes google joe’s tube lore. Also go to brent jesse tubes page. Lots of info there. 

Then you can search various threads here


----------



## MWSVette

doraymon said:


> Thanks.
> Is it normal that two good gold pin tubes cost like half the price of the amp?
> Is that a proportion you would accept?
> In other words, why not investing that money to buy a better amp...?
> Sorry for the silly question as I said I'm a newbie at tube rolling!



When I bought my first set of tubes for my Lyr I had a $50.00 max for any tubes.  That did not last long.

I probably could buy 5 or 6 Lyr's with what I have in my glass menagerie.

But to answer your question is it normal?  Well....


----------



## unclebrudy

MWSVette said:


> When I bought my first set of tubes for my Lyr I had a $50.00 max for any tubes.  That did not last long.
> 
> I probably could buy 5 or 6 Lyr's with what I have in my glass menagerie.
> 
> But to answer your question is it normal?  Well....


_*Menagerie.*_ I love that. I will henceforth refer to my own still-humble tube collection as a menagerie as well.


----------



## doraymon

thecrow said:


> Upscale audio is overpriced.
> 
> For info on 6922 tubes google joe’s tube lore. Also go to brent jesse tubes page. Lots of info there.
> 
> Then you can search various threads here


Yes they are not cheap and just found out they don't ship internationally. I live in Hong Kong...


----------



## kolkoo

AuditoryCanvas said:


> I just found these, which are totally identical, exact same markings, ink, placement etc, only difference is the October logo is missing, which makes sense if they were for export?
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/8-x-6N3P-Double-triode-tubes-6CC42-ECC42-SELECTED-BY-DATE-AUG-1975-y-p/252575332505?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2648



So I got my 16 tubes from this auction. They are all the same codes yeah, but look nothing like the ones in the photo. COde is 0982, they have a tiny October logo instead of a big one like in the pictures, grimy steel pins (some really bent but I can fix that), and they have only a single getter support instead of double (like on the picture).  Surely not SELECTED AUG 1975 as advertised. I am a bit annoyed, of course given the price it's not a big deal but yeah... Imma give that seller some negative feedback after asking him what gives


----------



## AuditoryCanvas

kolkoo said:


> So I got my 16 tubes from this auction. They are all the same codes yeah, but look nothing like the ones in the photo. COde is 0982, they have a tiny October logo instead of a big one like in the pictures, grimy steel pins (some really bent but I can fix that), and they have only a single getter support instead of double (like on the picture).  Surely not SELECTED AUG 1975 as advertised. I am a bit annoyed, of course given the price it's not a big deal but yeah... Imma give that seller some negative feedback after asking him what gives



That’s frustrating, I haven’t received mine yet, I’m guessing I’ll get the same


----------



## TK16

MWSVette said:


> When I bought my first set of tubes for my Lyr I had a $50.00 max for any tubes.  That did not last long.
> 
> I probably could buy 5 or 6 Lyr's with what I have in my glass menagerie.
> 
> But to answer your question is it normal?  Well....


Normal and highly addictive as you well know my friend. I compensated my 8 to 10 Lyr 2 ratio by buying more tubes gear. Ratio is better now, but with discovering 2C51 variants tubes I am buying more tubes now. Thought I was finished buying tubes. Apparently not.


----------



## gannjunior (Nov 1, 2017)

Hi Bob,
thank you for sharing you great review!

a question: I'd like to try *#2 Siemens CCa's – '65 Gray Shield (printed plate codes), '63 (and '62) Gray Shield (etch glass codes)*
in my PATHOS AURIUM

just found a couple and the seller says me "...._these are genuine Siemens CCa, renamed 6922 for RCA, Siemens CCa factory codes can’t be wrong: AØ 1≠ 3K & AØ 1≠ 3L.
These are in perfect condition & fully tested, no problem to expect in the next 1000+ hours_...."

for 250 eur

So may I expect they are the "same" you reviewed ?

thank you very much

ciao,
lorenzo


----------



## Guidostrunk

Save yourselves some money folks. Look into the 5670/2c51/396a tubes. The Lyr thread is loaded with info over the last 3 months. You can also search Mike Moffats @Baldr  posts regarding said tubes. 

There isn't a 6922 tube that competes imo. The Siemens CCa's, that were used for the shootout in this thread were mine. They don't even come close to my favorite tube right now. The Tung-sol 2c51. And they're many steps down from most of the 5670 variants. 

You can find the adapters on ebay for around $20 for a pair. 10 days to the US from China. Most of the 5670 variants can be had for under $100. Tung-sol's for $35. 

Of course it's all subjective, but the majority of the rollers in the Lyr thread, objectively are hearing what I'm hearing. Good luck folks.


----------



## winders

gannjunior said:


> Hi Bob,
> thank you for sharing you great review!
> 
> a question: I'd like to try *#2 Siemens CCa's – '65 Gray Shield (printed plate codes), '63 (and '62) Gray Shield (etch glass codes)*
> ...



Siemens made the CCa tubes for "German Post" only. They were never rebranded. What you have here is a rebranded Siemens E88CC tube. These tubes had the same exact codes as the CCa tubes made for German Post. These rebranded tubes are nothing special.


----------



## winders

Guidostrunk said:


> Save yourselves some money folks. Look into the 5670/2c51/396a tubes. The Lyr thread is loaded with info over the last 3 months. You can also search Mike Moffats @Baldr  posts regarding said tubes.
> 
> There isn't a 6922 tube that competes imo. The Siemens CCa's, that were used for the shootout in this thread were mine. They don't even come close to my favorite tube right now. The Tung-sol 2c51. And they're many steps down from most of the 5670 variants.
> 
> ...



I agree. But, I have a different favorite tube. I prefer the Western Electric 396A tube with the square getter. I prefer the "JW" version slightly.


----------



## gannjunior

So, guys, what kind of tubes (I'd like to avoid adapters) do you suggest for my Pathos Aurium ? I'd like to give more energy in the medium/high. (bass, soundstage and warm effect are all enough).

thank you


----------



## doraymon

gannjunior said:


> So, guys, what kind of tubes (I'd like to avoid adapters) do you suggest for my Pathos Aurium ? I'd like to give more energy in the medium/high. (bass, soundstage and warm effect are all enough).
> thank you


I am interested in this as well. 
My Aurium is on the way and already eager to roll tubes!!


----------



## thecrow (Nov 2, 2017)

gannjunior said:


> So, guys, what kind of tubes (I'd like to avoid adapters) do you suggest for my Pathos Aurium ? I'd like to give more energy in the medium/high. (bass, soundstage and warm effect are all enough).
> 
> thank you


Siemens cca’s are great for that. Pretty much exactly what you are seeking from what i understand. Lots of energy and detail. They pack a good punch. Good extension on top and bottom end. Soundstage is not sacrificed. 

Early/mid 60’s like you said. 

Like a lot of tubes, they appear to have gone up in price in recent years

I have often heard there may not be (much of ) a difference between the silver and grey options.

The only time i would be wary of them would be if you had a slightly brighter sound already happening and you were using the hd800. Then they may get too energetic. Doesn’t sound like thats a worry for you


----------



## gannjunior

ok thank u.
but from the previous page I've understood what I found is not exactly what I'm looking for.
basically this auction
http://www.ebay.it/itm/2x-CCa-6922-...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649


----------



## kolkoo

Guys... please let's not get carried away, as I can't seem to find any info if 2C51 tubes are compatible with the Pathos Aurium and if they will work well with it. The Schiit amps have auto-bias using a Constant Current Source and run the tubes at low current to start, so the 2C51 fit perfectly but you have to ask the makers of the Aurium what they think about the 2C51 before using them!


----------



## thecrow

gannjunior said:


> ok thank u.
> but from the previous page I've understood what I found is not exactly what I'm looking for.
> basically this auction
> http://www.ebay.it/itm/2x-CCa-6922-E88CC-RCA-by-SIEMENS-1963-AØ-1-3K-L-Matched-Tubes-NOS-NIB/302379246183?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649


Do you mean that listing is not what youre looking for because it looks like BS or youve moved on to other tube pursuits?


----------



## Whitigir

I really don’t like the new forum functions as there is no search within thread.....anyways, how is the Sylvania 1970 NOS 6DJ8 ? Thanks


----------



## kolkoo

Whitigir said:


> I really don’t like the new forum functions as there is no search within thread.....anyways, how is the Sylvania 1970 NOS 6DJ8 ? Thanks


You can search within thread if you click on the top right Search box after you open a thread and mark the check box "Search within thread"   It's a bit hard to find...
Also I don't believe many people have heard the tube you are referring to


----------



## AuditoryCanvas

kolkoo said:


> So I got my 16 tubes from this auction. They are all the same codes yeah, but look nothing like the ones in the photo. COde is 0982, they have a tiny October logo instead of a big one like in the pictures, grimy steel pins (some really bent but I can fix that), and they have only a single getter support instead of double (like on the picture).  Surely not SELECTED AUG 1975 as advertised. I am a bit annoyed, of course given the price it's not a big deal but yeah... Imma give that seller some negative feedback after asking him what gives



Mine just arrived. I received 8 x 1979, large logo, but single getter wire. Grimy pins, some bent, like you, not what we ordered. I've written to the seller to see if he wants to rectify it before I create havoc. Unlikely, but worth a try.

I also received another 8 of these, I ordered 2 a while ago, and loved them, so ordered more. The arrived in sparkling condition, like the left the factory yesterday. All made in May '73.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/6N3P-6CC42...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649


----------



## doraymon

My new Pathos Aurium comes standard with Electro-Harmonix 6922 tubes.
Do you think a matched pair of a Siemens E88CC/6922 of the 60' or 70' would bring an audible improvement in terms of sound quality?

The crazy thing is that I haven't even received yet the new amp and I am already looking for an upgrade!
I definitely got "the disease" and if you're reading this you know what I'm talking about!


----------



## m-i-c-k-e-y

A linear power supply would be nice...


----------



## doraymon

m-i-c-k-e-y said:


> A linear power supply would be nice...


what do you mean?


----------



## m-i-c-k-e-y

OT:

You want a nice upgrade for your Pathos Aurium?  Add/use a linear power supply instead of the wall wart that it comes that provides dirty power.


----------



## doraymon

m-i-c-k-e-y said:


> OT:
> 
> You want a nice upgrade for your Pathos Aurium?  Add/use a linear power supply instead of the wall wart that it comes that provides dirty power.


Already got an Sbooster for the Aurium ready to go. 
My doubt was more if NOS tubes would help.


----------



## thecrow

doraymon said:


> Already got an Sbooster for the Aurium ready to go.
> My doubt was more if NOS tubes would help.


Well in my woo wa2 the stock tubes, which i think are the same as yours, are fine but better tubes definitely gave an improvement. I ended up with the “top end” pinched waist holland and usa tubes and some tele e188cc tubes and have been very happy

The siemens mid 60’s e88cc tubes i had were a good solid sound. Slightly weighty neutral sound with a decent level of detail. Not outstanding compared to others (more expensive) but solid. 

Pretty well suited for rock music kind of stuff that ibwas listening to. 

I write all of the above from my own personal experience with my amp and having never heard yours

Is there a thread here specific to your amp for tube rolling ideas?

What music do you lean to/are you most concerned about?


----------



## doraymon

thecrow said:


> Well in my woo wa2 the stock tubes, which i think are the same as yours, are fine but better tubes definitely gave an improvement. I ended up with the “top end” pinched waist holland and usa tubes and some tele e188cc tubes and have been very happy
> 
> The siemens mid 60’s e88cc tubes i had were a good solid sound. Slightly weighty neutral sound with a decent level of detail. Not outstanding compared to others (more expensive) but solid.
> 
> ...


Yeah there is thread but I opened it recently and it seems my amp is a bit niche because I had no reaction whatsoever. Also, on another thread I found on the amp a few folks dropped some comments but honestly they didn't seem to have listened what they were talking about or at list didn't have much experience with many different tubes.

I am quire eclectic but mainly classic rock, electronic, folk (mainly female singers) and classical music.

My preferred sound signature is on the warm side of neutral. At the same time I love micro details, an airy sound and realistic transient reproduction but I am extremely sensitive to sibilance and harsh highs in general.

I found a good offer on both a pair of Telefunken E88CC and a pair of Siemens E188CC (the second one being 25% cheaper).
Not sure which of the two will match better my system, I guess I'll have to just... guess...


----------



## thecrow

doraymon said:


> Yeah there is thread but I opened it recently and it seems my amp is a bit niche because I had no reaction whatsoever. Also, on another thread I found on the amp a few folks dropped some comments but honestly they didn't seem to have listened what they were talking about or at list didn't have much experience with many different tubes.
> 
> I am quire eclectic but mainly classic rock, electronic, folk (mainly female singers) and classical music.
> 
> ...


I dont think ive ever had the siemens e188cc. I do have and love my siemens cca. They have great ounch, great detail and great extension on both top and bottom end. Potentially could be too bright up high if your set up is already close. But agreat tube if it may work. Of the e188cc is a hybrid in sound of the e88cc and cca then that could be good. 

With the teles i cant help there except to say the e188cc is clean, pretty good detail and quite transparent. Potentially lean, depending on your set up. I have often read there is a noticeable difference between the tele e88cc and the e188cc but maybe they could work too. 

Sorry i cant be more help. But it sounds like, that if the tubes are well priced then they would be decent. The siemens I’m guessing/thinking might have a little more weight in sound


----------



## thecrow

You could also consider the amperex usa 7308 military tubes (usn cep). They are slightly on the warmer side of neutral. Probably a bit more airy (space than the siemens). Nice neutral mids, touch of weight down low but well controlled and some air on the top end that has good extension and i dont find gets too bright or aggressive (like siemens cca).

Comparable in price. Probably a little less weight on sound than the siemens but a little more air in them. 

All good tubes so down to your personal prefs i think


----------



## doraymon

@thecrow thanks a lot mate.
I just ordered a pair of perfectly matched Telefunken E88CC.
My strategy is to get the best of the Germans I can afford and see how do I like them.
If the highs are too harsh I'll go down the road of warmer sounding tubes (Mullard & Co)


----------



## thecrow

doraymon said:


> @thecrow thanks a lot mate.
> I just ordered a pair of perfectly matched Telefunken E88CC.
> My strategy is to get the best of the Germans I can afford and see how do I like them.
> If the highs are too harsh I'll go down the road of warmer sounding tubes (Mullard & Co)


cool

i don't think they should be harsh at all

enjoy


----------



## Whitigir

doraymon said:


> @thecrow thanks a lot mate.
> I just ordered a pair of perfectly matched Telefunken E88CC.
> My strategy is to get the best of the Germans I can afford and see how do I like them.
> If the highs are too harsh I'll go down the road of warmer sounding tubes (Mullard & Co)



Where did you buy the Telefunken at ?


thecrow said:


> cool
> 
> i don't think they should be harsh at all
> 
> enjoy



Have you tried Philips SQ ?


----------



## winders

.....or, you could get 5670 tubes and adapters. I am not lying when I say the best 5670 tubes (e.g., WE JW 2C51 or WE396A) are better than all the 6922 tubes and cost MUCH less.


----------



## TK16

doraymon said:


> @thecrow thanks a lot mate.
> I just ordered a pair of perfectly matched Telefunken E88CC.
> My strategy is to get the best of the Germans I can afford and see how do I like them.
> If the highs are too harsh I'll go down the road of warmer sounding tubes (Mullard & Co)


I am a big Mullard, Brimar UK tubes fan but the WE 396A square getters are MUCH better without the negatives of Mullards. They are easily in my top 3 tubes if not the best.


----------



## thecrow (Nov 5, 2017)

Whitigir said:


> Where did you buy the Telefunken at ?
> 
> 
> Have you tried Philips SQ ?


I bought my tele e188cc off an ebay sellee called crumchak and i’ve had no issues at all with them.

The holland tubes i’ve owned are valvo e188cc which were very good, philips miniwatt ecc88 which were ok but no big deal, my bugle boys were probably better for me - great value (perhaps i expected more from the miniwatt) and my beloved pinch waist valvo e88cc that are (slightly) my preferred tube with my hd800. They are a step up from the e188cc if they fall within one’s budget.  The siemens cca are great with my elear


----------



## Whitigir (Nov 5, 2017)

thecrow said:


> I bought my tele e188cc off an ebay sellee called crumchak and i’ve had no issues at all with them.
> 
> The holland tubes i’ve owned are valvo e188cc which were very good, philips miniwatt ecc88 which were ok but no big deal, my bugle boys were probably better for me - great value (perhaps i expected more from the miniwatt) and my beloved pinch waist valvo e88cc that are (slightly) my preferred tube with my hd800. They are a step up from the e188cc if they fall within one’s budget.  The siemens cca are great with my elear



Thank you for your respond, that is kinda sad as the Philips SQ are so expensive, just behind the Telefunken Gold pin.  Could you find me a link to your eBay seller please.  Thanks


----------



## TK16

Euroclag is a good seller of German tubes, top notch stuff, bit pricey.


----------



## gannjunior

Yes guys would be nice if who found and tested with good results some tubes in the Pathos Aurium could share the specific ebay link of the specific product so we can compare with some other ebay shop (for example I have to found in Europe, like in German for example)

And would be also nice if who suggested to change the adapter with a linear one or something like this could suggest the specific product name. Just to avoid mistake in buying the products....

Many many thanks!


----------



## thecrow

Whitigir said:


> Thank you for your respond, that is kinda sad as the Philips SQ are so expensive, just behind the Telefunken Gold pin.  Could you find me a link to your eBay seller please.  Thanks


I hope this link works. Let me know if it gives my private details away. 

https://m.ebay.com.au/itm/2-x-E188C...ld-pins-RARE-DIAMOND/112630313218?_mwBanner=1

I bought the tubes from him late last year. I believe he had a swag of them. I think he told me he had a guitar/music shop/repair shop. 

He’s been using the same photo everytime i see a listing like this. 

This is the only tele i have ever heard. Having said that my transaction with him was all good. The tubes have been great and i have had no issues at all. The tubes are as others describe these tele e188cc tubes should be


----------



## Whitigir

Thank you much! I will pm him and see what else he has


----------



## doraymon

The two Telefunken E88CC I bought are perfectly Mu matched (the exact same value) and produced in the Ulm plant in the same day of 1962!
Not sure if I will be able to appreciate such a fine matching but it feels somehow reassuring...
Tubes will be with me probably next week.
Can't wait.


----------



## AuditoryCanvas

Is there anyone in LA with a tube tester that I could pay to test and potentially match a bunch of tubes for me? 

Looking at about 30 tubes in total. Mostly 6n3s and 6n23 types, but also a few 5670s.


----------



## doraymon

Whitigir said:


> Where did you buy the Telefunken at ?



After long research I ordered the tubes from this Italian shop: www.audioantiquary.com
You can select English language and the guy ships worldwide (VAT free for countries outside the EU, so the prices are actually much lower than what you see in the site) and shipping to Hong Kong was not crazy expensive.

It appears they have the strictest Mu (gain) and Ia (anode current) matching philosophy I have found online and each tube or couple of tubes is identified with a tag reporting all measurements (scroll among the pictures, you'll see the photos of the actual tube you are buying with all details).

Valerio, the guy who runs the shop, is crazy passionate and knowledgeable, I've been bombing him with questions which he always answered in almost real time despite the time zone difference!


----------



## Whitigir

doraymon said:


> After long research I ordered the tubes from this Italian shop: www.audioantiquary.com
> You can select English language and the guy ships worldwide (VAT free for countries outside the EU, so the prices are actually much lower than what you see in the site) and shipping to Hong Kong was not crazy expensive.
> 
> It appears they have the strictest Mu (gain) and Ia (anode current) matching philosophy I have found online and each tube or couple of tubes is identified with a tag reporting all measurements (scroll among the pictures, you'll see the photos of the actual tube you are buying with all details).
> ...


Please let me know how your tubes perform like, when you receive it


----------



## gannjunior

just ordered  2 x ECC88 68J8 Amperex for pathos aurium. should arrive in the next days


----------



## Whitigir

gannjunior said:


> just ordered  2 x ECC88 68J8 Amperex for pathos aurium. should arrive in the next days


Did you order from Audio antique linked above ?


----------



## gannjunior

no mate, from an italian ebay auction, a trust man who made me a good feeling


----------



## winders

I had a wonderful pair of Telefunken CCa tubes. They were better than any Telefunken E88CC or E188CC tubes I ever heard. But they were not as good as the Western Electric JW 2C51 tubes I have now. On top of that, the Telefunken tubes cost 3.5 times as much. Seriously folks, you need to take a look at the 5670 family of tubes. They are better than the 6922 family.


----------



## doraymon

Whitigir said:


> Please let me know how your tubes perform like, when you receive it


Will do


----------



## doraymon

@Whitigir Just a quick update: the tubes are with me since weeks now but the new amp arrived in the wrong colour and the replacement unit arrived with a scratch on the front panel! Long story made short I’m sending back the amp for the second time and will have to wait another couple of weeks to try the tubes...


----------



## Whitigir

doraymon said:


> @Whitigir Just a quick update: the tubes are with me since weeks now but the new amp arrived in the wrong colour and the replacement unit arrived with a scratch on the front panel! Long story made short I’m sending back the amp for the second time and will have to wait another couple of weeks to try the tubes...


Ouch! Thanks for the updates.  I hate it when it happens where you just have to spend extra time and shipping


----------



## doraymon

Whitigir said:


> Ouch! Thanks for the updates.  I hate it when it happens where you just have to spend extra time and shipping


Finally the third amp has arrived, this time with no issues... Wow that was a long, bumpy ride!
Anyhow, I took some time to write a review of the amp in which I mention also tube rolling with the NOS 1962 Telefunken E88CC.
Check it out HERE if you are still interested.


----------



## lordcloud

winders said:


> I had a wonderful pair of Telefunken CCa tubes. They were better than any Telefunken E88CC or E188CC tubes I ever heard. But they were not as good as the Western Electric JW 2C51 tubes I have now. On top of that, the Telefunken tubes cost 3.5 times as much. Seriously folks, you need to take a look at the 5670 family of tubes. They are better than the 6922 family.



You know it's funny, on a MHDT Labs thread, the opposite was stated. 

What are the sonic differences between the tube families, in your opinion?


----------



## winders

Better and more three dimensional soundstage. High levels of detail without harshness or clinical sound.  More musical.


----------



## lordcloud

winders said:


> Better and more three dimensional soundstage. High levels of detail without harshness or clinical sound.  More musical.



I have to say that based on my limited listening with my Pagoda, that the GE 5670 it comes with, does indeed son's much better than an Amperex 7308 with adaptor. Now, who knows how much of an impact the adaptor has (not audiophile quality), but it really has me trying to find the most transparent, neutral, and information rich 5670 tube I can find.

The 5670 is so much more spacious, palpable, and clean, versus the 7308. It's really got me questioning things.


----------



## giraz

Very very interesting, as a Lyr 2 owner.
I feel a little bit stupid.. but I cannot find the spreadsheet mentioned in the first post...


----------



## Thefatmanrocks

Haven’t seen anyone talk about these in a while. I just rolled the dice and got this pair for 40 bucks...we will see

https://m.ebay.com/itm/6N23P-Reflek...22-1-matched-pair/332575381204?epid=166819594


----------



## AuditoryCanvas

Thefatmanrocks said:


> Haven’t seen anyone talk about these in a while. I just rolled the dice and got this pair for 40 bucks...we will see
> 
> https://m.ebay.com/itm/6N23P-Reflek...22-1-matched-pair/332575381204?epid=166819594


I have a bunch of them for sale, some in my signature, and also have other pairs all tested and matched if you're interested.


----------



## Thefatmanrocks (Mar 7, 2018)

AuditoryCanvas said:


> I have a bunch of them for sale, some in my signature, and also have other pairs all tested and matched if you're interested.


I might be.  We'll see how I like the 75s I get. I thought the single wire was only in 74 and 75?


----------



## infohou

Thefatmanrocks said:


> I might be.  We'll see how I like the 75s I get. I thought the single wire was only in 74 and 75?



Hey Folks,

My Valhalla 2 is sending loud crackles through the headphone out again.  Probably through the line outs as well, but I have not checked.  This set of tubes is 14 months old.  They are warranty replacements from Schiit.

Anybody know which are the likely culprits?  The input or the output side?  I am thinking of getting two 6922 from AuditoryCanvas to see if that fixes anything.  I might be able to find the original tubes to try swapping in pursuit of troubleshooting.

The last time (first time) the crackling happened it was not exactly the same and one of the 6922's was noticeably discolored.  This time they look OK.

Ideas?

Thanks,
Robert A. Ober


----------



## TK16

infohou said:


> Hey Folks,
> 
> My Valhalla 2 is sending loud crackles through the headphone out again.  Probably through the line outs as well, but I have not checked.  This set of tubes is 14 months old.  They are warranty replacements from Schiit.
> 
> ...


May be your tubes most likely, easiest way to tell if you have other tubes to try out for trouble shooting, Is the crackling coming out from 1 channel? If it is swap the tubes around and see if the crackling goes to the other channel. @AuditoryCanvas is an excellent seller, dealt with him a couple months ago. Could maybe be your other non 6922 tubes as well? But I do not have any experience with your amp.


----------



## infohou

TK16 said:


> May be your tubes most likely, easiest way to tell if you have other tubes to try out for trouble shooting, Is the crackling coming out from 1 channel? If it is swap the tubes around and see if the crackling goes to the other channel. @AuditoryCanvas is an excellent seller, dealt with him a couple months ago. Could maybe be your other non 6922 tubes as well? But I do not have any experience with your amp.



Thanks,  As I said, I am wondering if it is more likely the input or output side.

I think it is in both channels but I will check again.

Y'all take care,
Robert


----------



## AuditoryCanvas

infohou said:


> Thanks,  As I said, I am wondering if it is more likely the input or output side.
> 
> I think it is in both channels but I will check again.
> 
> ...


Are you using socket savers? Try without them if so, just in case it's those. Also try cleaning the tube pins, in case it helps.


----------



## DaveLT

I found this thread from somewhere, just chimed in to say that I somehow have a Reflektor 6N23P-EB from 1974 that I got cheap and in very new condition. Is that very revered? I use it in my OTL 6080 tube amp (not a crack, nothing as crass as that) 

It has been a really great tube but I haven't tried voshkods and I won't be able to find the same tube cheaply anymore but I can confirm it's a 1974 6N23P-EB


----------



## sotto123

I've checked the manual of a DAC and it says to use 6922/E88CC. But am I also able to use 7308, ECC88, E88CC as direct replacements safely too?


----------



## aamefford

Those are all 6dj8 variants, and all, along with the 6dj8 should work fine.


----------



## Happytalk

I hope this thread continues. I have have an audible illusions pre amp and I've been trying to stock up slowly.  But tied up right now, but I'll report back on which I like best. Right now it's a set of sovtek 6922's. Not quite as good sounding as the tubes I had in there prior, but are holding up better. Very close in sound though. In fact I changed speakers and the synergy is technically better now. Anyway.  If anyone wants to share a reputable deal or two after they grab some, please remember to do so here.


----------



## AuditoryCanvas

Happytalk said:


> I hope this thread continues. I have have an audible illusions pre amp and I've been trying to stock up slowly.  But tied up right now, but I'll report back on which I like best. Right now it's a set of sovtek 6922's. Not quite as good sounding as the tubes I had in there prior, but are holding up better. Very close in sound though. In fact I changed speakers and the synergy is technically better now. Anyway.  If anyone wants to share a reputable deal or two after they grab some, please remember to do so here.



There's a really active thread on the link below, which covers mostly 6922 types, as well as other compatible tubes (with adapters). Totally worth reading through most of the thread. Will take while, but well worth the read, and there's a good friendly bunch contributing daily. 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/schiit-lyr-tube-rollers.673709/page-1145


----------



## TheSnafu

infohou said:


> Thanks,  As I said, I am wondering if it is more likely the input or output side.
> 
> I think it is in both channels but I will check again.
> 
> ...



it's good to have one spare pair of new/ish tubes, get some cheap and working tubes (audio doesn't really matter) 
and when you start suspecting tube problems you have one set to compare and test if the problems go away or not.

cheers


----------



## tracyca (Apr 12, 2018)

CCa Valvo for my Felkis Audio Espressivo mk2.


----------



## infohou

AuditoryCanvas said:


> Are you using socket savers? Try without them if so, just in case it's those. Also try cleaning the tube pins, in case it helps.



Right channel only.  Forgot about cleaning the pins, but it was so severe I doubt that would have helped.

For speed and price I ordreed the Schiit replacements.  Interesting thing is the 6922 variants don’t appear to be the same model as the markings are different.  I will try to remember to post pics.

Sent PM to AuditoryCanvas to see about availability and pricing of some better 6922’s.  Hope to harass the Schiit folks as well.

After some runin, the Schiit set sounds good.  Maybe not as good as the Rockets it shipped with but these need more hours.

Hope you folks are well and good,
Robert A. Ober


----------



## infohou

TheSnafu said:


> it's good to have one spare pair of new/ish tubes, get some cheap and working tubes (audio doesn't really matter)
> and when you start suspecting tube problems you have one set to compare and test if the problems go away or not.
> 
> cheers



Good idea


----------



## infohou

Hey Again,

Thinking about:
https://www.audioantiquary.com/en-us/philips-ecc88-3764/

Any of you fine folks bought from Audio Antiquary?

Thanks,
Robert


----------



## doraymon

infohou said:


> Hey Again,
> 
> Thinking about:
> https://www.audioantiquary.com/en-us/philips-ecc88-3764/
> ...


Yes I did. Very professional guy.


----------



## infohou

doraymon said:


> Yes I did. Very professional guy.



Thanks,
Robert


----------



## infohou

The Schiit replacements have gotten better with more hours.  Mids are no longer hard and highs are better and easier to hear.  My older ears need that.

They are perhaps a bit light on the bottom end and the sound is a bit thin overall.  Many apparently like this these days but I prefer a more natural/fuller sound.

Hard to complain when the set of four(ins and outs) was $50.00.  Still planning on posting pics so maybe somebody can clue me in as to the 6922's origin.

Hope you folks are well and good,
Robert


----------



## infohou

Hey Folks,

These are the 6922's I got recently from Schiit.  Any help identifying them would be appreciated.


 

This one has a pentastar on the side.  Similar to the Chrysler logo.


This one is has no logo or brand on the side or front.


Pentastar logo.  Apologies, I thought I had a sharper shot of this.



The one with no name or logo.  X-83 on the back.

Hope you folks are having a fun weekend,
Robert


----------



## AuditoryCanvas

infohou said:


> Hey Folks,
> 
> These are the 6922's I got recently from Schiit.  Any help identifying them would be appreciated.
> 
> ...


Hi Robert, the pentastar logo is a generic logo used to denote "for military use". The X is roman numeral for May (5), and the 83 is the year. Most Russian tubes used to use a roman numeral for the month, then normal 2 digit for the year. That changed later on, and they typically used normal numbers for both month and year.

The tubes are 6n1p, and the ones you have are made by Orel (ORZJEP factory (Orel city)) - the small circle with a horizontal line through, is their logo (between the month and year on that tube).

You can usually find them for around $1 to $2 each.

https://www.siberian-shop.com/orzep-orel-city-m-14.html

https://www.ebay.com/itm/6N1P-ORZEP...OF-ECC88-6DJ8-6CG7-NOS-LOT-OF-8-/272194876149


----------



## infohou

AuditoryCanvas said:


> Hi Robert, the pentastar logo is a generic logo used to denote "for military use". The X is roman numeral for May (5), and the 83 is the year. Most Russian tubes used to use a roman numeral for the month, then normal 2 digit for the year. That changed later on, and they typically used normal numbers for both month and year.
> 
> The tubes are 6n1p, and the ones you have are made by Orel (ORZJEP factory (Orel city)) - the small circle with a horizontal line through, is their logo (between the month and year on that tube).
> 
> ...



Thanks,

But with the different markings wouldn't that denote the two tubes may be from different manufacturers?

Take it EZ,
Robert


----------



## AuditoryCanvas

infohou said:


> Thanks,
> 
> But with the different markings wouldn't that denote the two tubes may be from different manufacturers?
> 
> ...


Aside form different months/years, the only difference I can see in your photos is that one of them doesn't have the Orel logo, so it's likely made by Voskhod. They were the two main manufacturers for 6n1p, and the print and construction supports that.

The pentastar is used on most Russian manufactured tubes denoted for military use, so that isn't an indicator of brand.


----------



## infohou

AuditoryCanvas said:


> Aside form different months/years, the only difference I can see in your photos is that one of them doesn't have the Orel logo, so it's likely made by Voskhod. They were the two main manufacturers for 6n1p, and the print and construction supports that.
> 
> The pentastar is used on most Russian manufactured tubes denoted for military use, so that isn't an indicator of brand.




The one with X-83 has no logo and the one with the Orel logo has the pentastar, so very different in terms of markings.   I would say it makes sense that the X-83 one is Voskhod or something else.

When the ones I bought from you show up tomorrow I will pull the Schiits out again and look harder at the construction.

Thanks again,
Robert


----------



## zeroduke

[


AuditoryCanvas said:


> Hi Robert, the pentastar logo is a generic logo used to denote "for military use". The X is roman numeral for May (5), and the 83 is the year. Most Russian tubes used to use a roman numeral for the month, then normal 2 digit for the year. That changed later on, and they typically used normal numbers for both month and year.



Roman numeral X is 10, so in this case it is October.


----------



## AuditoryCanvas

zeroduke said:


> [
> 
> 
> Roman numeral X is 10, so in this case it is October.


Indeed, not sure where my head was at. V is May.


----------



## AuditoryCanvas

infohou said:


> The one with X-83 has no logo and the one with the Orel logo has the pentastar, so very different in terms of markings.   I would say it makes sense that the X-83 one is Voskhod or something else.
> 
> When the ones I bought from you show up tomorrow I will pull the Schiits out again and look harder at the construction.
> 
> ...


The pentastar doesn't have anything to do with brand. You will find some with and without it from the same brand, so as I said, the only difference in relation to brand indicators is the Orel logo being absent on the other one.


----------



## infohou

AuditoryCanvas said:


> The pentastar doesn't have anything to do with brand. You will find some with and without it from the same brand, so as I said, the only difference in relation to brand indicators is the Orel logo being absent on the other one.



I understand your contention about the pentastar, although this site says otherwise:
http://www.ominous-valve.com/russtube.html .

I would expect tubes that appear to be from the same year to have the same style date coder or similar if from the same manufacturer.  

Take it EZ,
Robert


----------



## TK16

infohou said:


> The one with X-83 has no logo and the one with the Orel logo has the pentastar, so very different in terms of markings.   I would say it makes sense that the X-83 one is Voskhod or something else.
> 
> When the ones I bought from you show up tomorrow I will pull the Schiits out again and look harder at the construction.
> 
> ...


What tubes did you buy?


----------



## AuditoryCanvas (May 6, 2018)

infohou said:


> I understand your contention about the pentastar, although this site says otherwise:
> http://www.ominous-valve.com/russtube.html .
> 
> I would expect tubes that appear to be from the same year to have the same style date coder or similar if from the same manufacturer.
> ...



That site covers brand logos - as you can see there, the Orel logo which you have on one of yours. What I'm trying to explain is that the pentastar isn't a brand related logo. I have Oktyabr 6n3p, Voskhod 6n23p, and various Reflektor tubes that all have that logo. It's a military logo, on tubes denoted for military use. It's not brand specific.

As for similar markings in the same year, I have Refketors and Oktyabr from the same year, and they have different size logos, and different size and font date codes, with different placement. Some have a military symbol, some don't.

Here's a few examples of the universal russian star logo for military being on various different brands. As you can see, all three brands use that military logo:

Voskhod tubes:






Oktyabr:








Reflektor:


----------



## infohou

AuditoryCanvas said:


> That site covers brand logos - as you can see there, the Orel logo which you have on one of yours. What I'm trying to explain is that the pentastar isn't a brand related logo. I have Oktyabr 6n3p, Voskhod 6n23p, and various Reflektor tubes that all have that logo. It's a military logo, on tubes denoted for military use. It's not brand specific.
> 
> As for similar markings in the same year, I have Refketors and Oktyabr from the same year, and they have different size logos, and different size and font date codes, with different placement. Some have a military symbol, some don't.
> 
> ...



Yes,  but they do show the pentastar as representing *Novosibirsk*.

I am not as dumb as I look


----------



## infohou

TK16 said:


> What tubes did you buy?



They are Audio Research Corporation ECC88, with gold grid.  Of course they are made by someone else.  AC says they look and sound like the Teslas.

They are significantly more detailed than the Schiit cheapies, including midrange and lower overtones.  Currently still a bit hard in the mids as in middle key piano.  Hopefully that will get better as the Schiit cheapies did.  They also have more of everything else, dynamics, bass, and upper highs with clarity.  Yet they are not harsh. Its like when I went from a cheaper cartridge to a Lyra Kleos, except for the hardness in the mids, the Kleos definitely does not have that.

I was concerned at first as the post office folks crushed the box somewhat.

I received my Philips ECC88's (supposedly Herleens) today from an Italian seller.  Burning them in as I write this.  Surprisingly similar to the ARCs except for apparently less energy in the highs and softer middle key piano.  This after only a few minutes in the Valhalla2.  As I listen to Jazz At The Pawnshop via Tidal and my Dragonfly Red feeding HD700s they don't appear to have as much high frequency clarity as the ARCs but I will give them time.  Perhaps overall a bit more polite than the ARCs.

Y'all be cool,
Robert


----------



## AuditoryCanvas

infohou said:


> Yes,  but they do show the pentastar as representing *Novosibirsk*.
> 
> I am not as dumb as I look


*Novosibirsk logo is a hollow/empty pentagon. Not to be confused with the universal USSR logo. 

I was trying to help you identify your tube, not debate the finer points of logo identification. I’ve spent the last year plus studying Russian 6n23p, 6n3p, and their variants, and the various manufacturers.

*


----------



## infohou (May 8, 2018)

AuditoryCanvas said:


> *Novosibirsk logo is a hollow/empty pentagon. Not to be confused with the universal USSR logo.
> 
> I was trying to help you identify your tube, not debate the finer points of logo identification. I’ve spent the last year plus studying Russian 6n23p, 6n3p, and their variants, and the various manufacturers.
> *



Ah,  thanks for the correction.  I did not realize the distinction.  I don't doubt you know more.  I wasn't debating,  I was merely pointing out what I saw.  That's part of how one learns.

I appreciate the help.  As you probably realize,  knowledge is important with so many scammers in the tube business.

Let me know if you get a good pair of mid 70's rockets as I want to try them again.

Take it EZ,
Robert


----------



## tracyca

Just recieved a pair of Amperex 6922 USA PQ D getters first impressions dynamic and crispy clear. I also have some telefunken E88cc coming this week. I Admit I am a tube fien. Addicted and I won't quit. That is until the wife realizes how much these little glass tubes cost.


----------



## Justin_Time

I suspect the Telefunken E88CC will be even better.  I have them in my ModWright Oppo 205.  Sound great: clean, detailed and sweet!  ModWright run them hard so the E88CC last quite a bit longer than the ECC88.  They were not cheap!  Mind telling me what you paid for them?


----------



## tracyca

Telefunkens I paid 460 for a match pair.


----------



## ScareDe2 (Jul 23, 2018)

I would have been interested to see a comparison review with authentic Mullard 2492 and how they scale compared to the other ones mentionned. I recall I liked the sound of the Mullard E88CC 10M series a lot (or was it ECC88). They are on a whole different level in terms of soundstage, sweetness and musicality. A unique experience. I had to return them because one tube was weaker than the other. Other than that, the sound was fabulous and it would have been one of my top choices. I never tested the cv2492 or 2493. Also, if anyone know of cheaper alternative to get that sound please let me know. The 10m goes for a pretty penny, especially matched pair.


----------



## Dubstep Girl

hello everyone!

just checking in!


----------



## bokat57

Hi

Does anybody have any information on the Zaerix 7DJ8 ?  It is my understanding That Zaerix was a tube re-brander in England. I received a pair of them today and they look very similar to my Reflektor 6N23P.

Thanks
Bob


----------



## TK16

bokat57 said:


> Hi
> 
> Does anybody have any information on the Zaerix 7DJ8 ?  It is my understanding That Zaerix was a tube re-brander in England. I received a pair of them today and they look very similar to my Reflektor 6N23P.
> 
> ...


Do they have an upside down flying saucer getter? If they do they are Russian tubes.


----------



## bokat57

TK16 said:


> Do they have an upside down flying saucer getter? If they do they are Russian tubes.



Yes They have the upside down flying saucer getter. I agree I think they are Russian tubes. Is it possible that the Zaerix tubes are re-branded 6N23P's as they are drop in replacements ( at least in my amp ) I wonder who actually made the Zaerix     Reflektor, Voskhod etc.


Thanks
Bob


----------



## BlakeT

Question:

I have 4 Reflektor 6N23P SWGP '75 tubes I purchased on Ebay, they were fairly expensive, but the Ukraine seller seems pretty legit and had measurement data.  I swapped them into my amp last night and the balance seems off, in that the left channel seemed stronger than the right, shifting the soundstage to the left.  It is pretty noticeable.

I've done a bit of tube rolling over the years, but I have yet to experience tube failure because I rotate tubes fairly often.  I am sending the tubes off for testing, but in the meantime, do you think my issue may relate to one or more of the tubes going bad?

Thanks


----------



## MarkR7

Curious, did you swap the tubes left to right channel and vice versa, and did the balance / soundstage shift with the change as well?


----------



## BlakeT

I am planning to do that tonight after work.


----------



## mateusfig

BlakeT said:


> Question:
> 
> I have 4 Reflektor 6N23P SWGP '75 tubes I purchased on Ebay, they were fairly expensive, but the Ukraine seller seems pretty legit and had measurement data.  I swapped them into my amp last night and the balance seems off, in that the left channel seemed stronger than the right, shifting the soundstage to the left.  It is pretty noticeable.
> 
> ...



I have got this problem with 6N23P, used on Bravo V3, to replace the 6922. The problem used to happen because the tube was badly inserted.


----------



## BlakeT

Good point about checking the insertion.  The tube sockets on my amp (Blue Circle Audio BC-204) have a tight hold on the tubes and it takes a fair bit of careful effort both to insert tubes and also to remove them.  Perhaps one of the tubes was not seated in properly?


----------



## mateusfig

BlakeT said:


> Good point about checking the insertion.  The tube sockets on my amp (Blue Circle Audio BC-204) have a tight hold on the tubes and it takes a fair bit of careful effort both to insert tubes and also to remove them.  Perhaps one of the tubes was not seated in properly?


Try to turn the tube around a little bit, with the amp turned on and try to adjust to get the correct balance.


----------



## TK16

BlakeT said:


> Question:
> 
> I have 4 Reflektor 6N23P SWGP '75 tubes I purchased on Ebay, they were fairly expensive, but the Ukraine seller seems pretty legit and had measurement data.  I swapped them into my amp last night and the balance seems off, in that the left channel seemed stronger than the right, shifting the soundstage to the left.  It is pretty noticeable.
> 
> ...


Probably bad testing tubes, if its from that Svetlana or something from Ukraine, got bad testing and noisy tubes years ago.


----------



## BlakeT

The Ebay seller was brandmix19


----------



## Happytalk

IT is fairly common knowledge that the Ukraine sellers tend to just flat out lie about testing, etc. it’s a drag


----------



## BlakeT

It turns out one of my tubes was just not seated in all the way.  No more imbalance issues.  I still plan on sending them for testing.  Also, these tubes sound absolutely fantastic!


----------



## mateusfig

BlakeT said:


> It turns out one of my tubes was just not seated in all the way.  No more imbalance issues.  I still plan on sending them for testing.  Also, these tubes sound absolutely fantastic!



Nice. I had such a problem, like I said before.


----------



## Roll'em tubes

I was wondering if anybody knows how the 6922 tube shootout was scored. I had read rb2013 used (0.5) increments however the final scores show (0.1) increments. I didn't
 read an explanation for that. It is an outstanding review and was able to duplicate his results with the same tube types.


----------



## Happytalk

Please update us after testing.


----------



## Nostoi

Resurrecting this thread in order to ask whether someone in the know can tell me if these look legit - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/254417633949 Price looks fair. Thanks.


----------



## spyder1

They have the "single wire getter post" which is a sign of authenticity. Etched label on glass cannot be forged. Better photos, and more of them would help.


----------



## Nostoi

spyder1 said:


> They have the "single wire getter post" which is a sign of authenticity. Etched label on glass cannot be forged. Better photos, and more of them would help.


Many thanks. I've ordered a pair from the seller, so I'll find out how they are soon.


----------



## AuditoryCanvas

Nostoi said:


> Many thanks. I've ordered a pair from the seller, so I'll find out how they are soon.


Just make sure to get them tested. The last batch of 50 Reflektors I had that were sold as NOS, tested over 60% of them dead (below min levels, or had shorts). 

I'd be happy to test them for you if you're stuck for testing.


----------



## Nostoi

AuditoryCanvas said:


> Just make sure to get them tested. The last batch of 50 Reflektors I had that were sold as NOS, tested over 60% of them dead (below min levels, or had shorts).
> 
> I'd be happy to test them for you if you're stuck for testing.


Thanks, that's very kind of you. I ended up getting these - which have more detailed photos and test results. Be curious to your impressions.


----------



## AuditoryCanvas

Nostoi said:


> Thanks, that's very kind of you. I ended up getting these - which have more detailed photos and test results. Be curious to your impressions.


Looks promising, but I still recommend testing them to be sure.


----------



## KenMan85

X


BlakeT said:


> Question:
> 
> I have 4 Reflektor 6N23P SWGP '75 tubes I purchased on Ebay, they were fairly expensive, but the Ukraine seller seems pretty legit and had measurement data.  I swapped them into my amp last night and the balance seems off, in that the left channel seemed stronger than the right, shifting the soundstage to the left.  It is pretty noticeable.
> 
> ...


I bought same tubes from literally the h same seller.  In the end did you find thet last a long time and were they as advertised?


----------



## BlakeT

KenMan85 said:


> X
> 
> I bought same tubes from literally the h same seller.  In the end did you find thet last a long time and were they as advertised?



No problems so far.


----------



## KenMan85

BlakeT said:


> No problems so far.


I hope not fake.  They don't say holy Grail in the ad.  And I saw a posting on ebay from someone else.. That does, and those tubes were twice as much lol


----------



## gkg2k

BlakeT said:


> It turns out one of my tubes was just not seated in all the way.  No more imbalance issues.  I still plan on sending them for testing.  Also, these tubes sound absolutely fantastic!



I bought a pair of these 1975 Reflector 6N23P SWGP Silver Shield's from the same ebay seller and they do work perfectly.
I'm sure it's the so-called "Holy Grail" variety.

They are _fighting against_ my burned-in pair of 1963 & 1968 Telefunken E88CC Gold Pins.

The playground is my ModWright LS300 preamp with a pair of 1953 & 1955 GEC U52 rectifiers + a pair of preamp tubes.

*What I can say :*

1] the pair of Reflectors has to burn-in yet but I believe that _a good day starts in the morning _and I will express my opinion now

2] the Refectors are exceptionally transparent, the sound has an incredible clarity (slightly excessive in my system, but I can get used to it, hopefully the treble will get more refined by burning-in)

3] Soundstage is good but not as wide and deep than the E88CC. Now I understand why someone defines the 1975 Reflector as a "forward" tube. Anyway I think soundstage can get better with use

4] Bass and Pace : where are they? That's the part that's scaring me about the Reflectors. I don't believe they'll get so much better to match the bass weight and the pace of the Telefunken's. Let me state my E88CC's are not bass-monsters, but these Reflectors are too lightweight for my system. There's a lack of body in the mid-bass and bass frequencies that can't fit my system. After the initial super-transparency and super-clarity intoxication you start wondering : *where's bass?*

5] I re-inserted my Telefunken's as daily runners, but I don't give up with the Reflector's : I'll try to burn them in spare time hopefully they get better.

6] All the above is related to MY OWN system. My next objective could be the Siemens CCA's...

Thanks,
Gianluca


----------



## KenMan85

gkg2k said:


> I bought a pair of these 1975 Reflector 6N23P SWGP Silver Shield's from the same ebay seller and they do work perfectly.
> I'm sure it's the so-called "Holy Grail" variety.
> 
> They are _fighting against_ my burned-in pair of 1963 & 1968 Telefunken E88CC Gold Pins.
> ...


I bought a pair that arrive Monday, I worry if their legit and I hope to like them.  For the price is fairly steep.


----------



## gkg2k

KenMan85 said:


> I bought a pair that arrive Monday, I worry if their legit and I hope to like them.  For the price is fairly steep.



Same eBay seller mentioned above?

Mine seem original and the sound signature is recognizable.

So I'd concentrate in the _"I hope to like them"_ part 

Gianluca


----------



## KenMan85

gkg2k said:


> Same eBay seller mentioned above?
> 
> Mine seem original and the sound signature is recognizable.
> 
> ...


Yah brandmix was my eBay seller via Ukraine,  can you follow up after burn in plz?


----------



## gkg2k

KenMan85 said:


> Yah brandmix was my eBay seller via Ukraine,  can you follow up after burn in plz?



Yes, brandmix19 is serious, imho.

I'll post again about the Reflector '75's after they burn-in 

It will be a long matter since I can't use them everyday being their sound too light for my system.

Please, post your early impressions!

Gianluca


----------



## KenMan85

gkg2k said:


> Yes, brandmix19 is serious, imho.
> 
> I'll post again about the Reflector '75's after they burn-in
> 
> ...


My plan will be leave the amp on over night / day for 24 hrs


----------



## gkg2k

KenMan85 said:


> My plan will be leave the amp on over night / day for 24 hrs



Too short  because they're NOS, but you can still express your first opinion after 24h.

My tubes run 12h a day with TV audio during the day and music playback during the night and I think it's a good way to burn-in. Music signal must flow.

Let us know!


----------



## KenMan85

Ok fair I'll make note of that


----------



## BlakeT

I use my quad of the "Holy Grails" from brandmix (agree, he is a very serious seller and I am sure my tubes are legitimate) in my speaker system, where I have two subwoofers.  Therefore it is possible that I would not be detecting any reticence in the low frequencies.  

Yes, these Grails have extreme clarity and detail. My normal preferred tubes have been NOS Amperex PQ white labels. I have not done any back and forth comparisons with my PQ's and the Grails, as the Grails have been in the amp since they arrived but I suppose I should do that at some point in the near future. It is a bit of a hassle to do it because my amp is large and heavy, resting on Rollerblocks and I have to lift the heavy amp out of the rack, so that is the reason I have avoided the A/B tube comparisons so far.


----------



## KenMan85

BlakeT said:


> I use my quad of the "Holy Grails" from brandmix (agree, he is a very serious seller and I am sure my tubes are legitimate) in my speaker system, where I have two subwoofers.  Therefore it is possible that I would not be detecting any reticence in the low frequencies.
> 
> Yes, these Grails have extreme clarity and detail. My normal preferred tubes have been NOS Amperex PQ white labels. I have not done any back and forth comparisons with my PQ's and the Grails, as the Grails have been in the amp since they arrived but I suppose I should do that at some point in the near future. It is a bit of a hassle to do it because my amp is large and heavy, resting on Rollerblocks and I have to lift the heavy amp out of the rack, so that is the reason I have avoided the A/B tube comparisons so far.


I was torn between these and the amperex. 

How's, the stage and clarity of them? I understand it's not as much in either as the hg


----------



## gkg2k (May 28, 2020)

BlakeT said:


> I use my quad of the "Holy Grails" from brandmix (agree, he is a very serious seller and I am sure my tubes are legitimate) in my speaker system, where I have two subwoofers.  Therefore it is possible that I would not be detecting any reticence in the low frequencies.
> 
> Yes, these Grails have extreme clarity and detail. My normal preferred tubes have been NOS Amperex PQ white labels. I have not done any back and forth comparisons with my PQ's and the Grails, as the Grails have been in the amp since they arrived but I suppose I should do that at some point in the near future. It is a bit of a hassle to do it because my amp is large and heavy, resting on Rollerblocks and I have to lift the heavy amp out of the rack, so that is the reason I have avoided the A/B tube comparisons so far.



Having subwoofers I think the Reflectors would be great if their highs gets sweeter after the burn-in! (and soundstange a bit bigger).

I only have 1x wideband 215mm (8,5") per speaker and I do need more presence in the mid-bass / bass region.

Gianluca


----------



## BlakeT

KenMan85 said:


> I was torn between these and the amperex.
> 
> How's, the stage and clarity of them? I understand it's not as much in either as the hg



I will need to A/B the Grails against my PQ's in order to provide any worthwhile input.  I will try to do that within the week and report back.


----------



## BlakeT

gkg2k said:


> Having subwoofers I think the Reflectors would be great if their highs gets sweeter after the burn-in! (and soundstange a bit bigger).
> 
> I only have 1x wideband 215mm (8,5") per speaker and I do need more presence in the mid-bass / bass region.
> 
> Gianluca



I've been very happy with my Grails, but this discussion has sparked my curiosity to do A/B against the PQ's.  I do have a vague recollection of my thoughts when I first swapped in the Grails, and that was that the Grails were not as sweet up top, which may or may not be to one's preference.


----------



## gkg2k

BlakeT said:


> I've been very happy with my Grails, but this discussion has sparked my curiosity to do A/B against the PQ's.  I do have a vague recollection of my thoughts when I first swapped in the Grails, and that was that the Grails were not as sweet up top, which may or may not be to one's preference.



Please, check the mid-bass dynamics compared to the Amperex. Can you switch the subwoofers off for this part of the test?


----------



## Nostoi

I also bought a pair of matched NOS 1975 Reflector 6N23P SWGP Silver Shield's recently. I'm also curious to what extent these need burning in. I'm A/Bing them with a pair of Tungsram E88CC, and the latter somehow sound more engaging and more energetic. The 6N23P's are refined, but smoother than I expected. I'm hoping they open up more. We'll see.


----------



## KenMan85

Nostoi said:


> I also bought a pair of matched NOS 1975 Reflector 6N23P SWGP Silver Shield's recently. I'm also curious to what extent these need burning in. I'm A/Bing them with a pair of Tungsram E88CC, and the latter somehow sound more engaging and more energetic. The 6N23P's are refined, but smoother than I expected. I'm hoping they open up more. We'll see.


I'd say give a 24 hr burn in to start and see if theirs any change.  Then decide if it's worth it for you to keep them n try more time


----------



## gkg2k

Nostoi said:


> I also bought a pair of matched NOS 1975 Reflector 6N23P SWGP Silver Shield's recently. I'm also curious to what extent these need burning in. I'm A/Bing them with a pair of Tungsram E88CC, and the latter somehow sound more engaging and more energetic. The 6N23P's are refined, but smoother than I expected. I'm hoping they open up more. We'll see.



Opening up in dynamics maybe? I mean I have the impression the Reflector is more "flat" than expected. Is that what you mean by more engaging and energetic related to the E88CC?


----------



## Nostoi

KenMan85 said:


> I'd say give a 24 hr burn in to start and see if theirs any change.  Then decide if it's worth it for you to keep them n try more time


Definitely had them running longer than that. I'll likely keep them, as I got them for a decent price. It's hard to do a fair A/B because of letting the tubes cool off and warm up again. The Tungsram E88CC somehow make more of an impression when I roll them, but as I say, hard to say.


----------



## Nostoi

gkg2k said:


> Opening up in dynamics maybe? I mean I have the impression the Reflector is more "flat" than expected. Is that what you mean by more engaging and energetic related to the E88CC?


Yes, flatter - that's right. Possibly the E88CC are more v-shaped. I think they definitely accent the sub-bass a little more. Ultimately the Reflectors might be less fatiguing over time.


----------



## gkg2k

Nostoi said:


> Yes, flatter - that's right. Possibly the E88CC are more v-shaped. I think they definitely accent the sub-bass a little more. Ultimately the Reflectors might be less fatiguing over time.



OK, actually I've never tried the Tungsram and I can't judge. I find the Reflector more ringing and prone to the high frequencies than the Telefunken E88CC Gold Pins 1963-1968 (so someway the opposite than your comparison with the Tungsram) but less "alive" at the same time (here our impressions match).


----------



## KenMan85

Sounds like they may be to bright for me.  Hope the holographic nature, mids, and sound stage can  make these great


----------



## gkg2k

KenMan85 said:


> Sounds like they may be to bright for me.  Hope the holographic nature, mids, and sound stage can  make these great



You'll know very soon!  Did you request an express courier from Ukraine to Canada?


----------



## KenMan85

Nah FedEx economy, but it's only 4 days total shipping it turns out.   It will be here before my trafomatic head 2


----------



## KenMan85

Either of you have any burning time yet on those reflector


----------



## gkg2k

KenMan85 said:


> Either of you have any burning time yet on those reflector



Delivered?


----------



## KenMan85

gkg2k said:


> Delivered?


Mine are today. Amp tomorrow.  Just seeing if they opened up for you guys after some more burn in


----------



## gkg2k

KenMan85 said:


> Mine are today. Amp tomorrow.  Just seeing if they opened up for you guys after some more burn in



Great! Have fun with your new gear!

My '75 Silver Shield Reflectors are still on the box while the 'Fukens are sounding so well after 1000 hours of use. Yes, I think it took 1000 hours of sound playback to disclose the full potential of my E88CC Gold Pins!

Keep us informed 😉


----------



## KenMan85

I'm not sure I want to do $1,000 of burning though lol


----------



## gkg2k

KenMan85 said:


> I'm not sure I want to do $1,000 of burning though lol



No, it doesn't cost so much to burn-in


----------



## Nostoi

KenMan85 said:


> Either of you have any burning time yet on those reflector


I have to say, I've had my Tungsram's plugged in since this last thread, so I've not heard the Reflectors for a few days. I'm doing an A/B now with a fresh set of ears. My set-up is Pathos Aurium, RME ADI-2, and ZMF Eikon. I'm listening now and would say that the Reflectors have a bit more bottom end; I don't find them lacking here at all. To my ears, though, they retain a smoothness that I find not as engaging as the Tungsram's. I would not say they're bright at all. I'm listening to a 32/192 rip of Metallica's Black Album, and on some set-ups, the cymbal and hi-hats can sound piercing. I don't find that here at all. Mids are quite forward and fairly detailed. On the holographic issue, a good track for that is the end of "Holier Than Thou," where a series of layered guitars come in at different spaces within the track. I just A/B'd that between my tubes and have to say the Tungsram's won on clarity. I don't know. You may prefer the Reflectors, everyone responds differently, but for me I find Tungsram's more satisfying. I don't know if the Reflectors need more burning time. I've had that for perhaps a month or so, they sound as though they could open up more, but what I'm hearing might also be there sound. Let me know what you think when you get yours. I'm undecided if I'll keep mine.


----------



## KenMan85

Nostoi said:


> I have to say, I've had my Tungsram's plugged in since this last thread, so I've not heard the Reflectors for a few days. I'm doing an A/B now with a fresh set of ears. My set-up is Pathos Aurium, RME ADI-2, and ZMF Eikon. I'm listening now and would say that the Reflectors have a bit more bottom end; I don't find them lacking here at all. To my ears, though, they retain a smoothness that I find not as engaging as the Tungsram's. I would not say they're bright at all. I'm listening to a 32/192 rip of Metallica's Black Album, and on some set-ups, the cymbal and hi-hats can sound piercing. I don't find that here at all. Mids are quite forward and fairly detailed. On the holographic issue, a good track for that is the end of "Holier Than Thou," where a series of layered guitars come in at different spaces within the track. I just A/B'd that between my tubes and have to say the Tungsram's won on clarity. I don't know. You may prefer the Reflectors, everyone responds differently, but for me I find Tungsram's more satisfying. I don't know if the Reflectors need more burning time. I've had that for perhaps a month or so, they sound as though they could open up more, but what I'm hearing might also be there sound. Let me know what you think when you get yours. I'm undecided if I'll keep mine.


Thanks!  

If mine aren't very spacious after 40 hrs of burn, I'll probably sell /trade for some amperex white PQ.  Go for a more woo audio type of liquid smooth. That would compliment my dry sounding stock pair.


----------



## Nostoi

KenMan85 said:


> Thanks!
> 
> If mine aren't very spacious after 40 hrs of burn, I'll probably sell /trade for some amperex white PQ.  Go for a more woo audio type of liquid smooth. That would compliment my dry sounding stock pair.


Do let me know what you think. I'm also looking at the Amperex tubes for my set-up.


----------



## KenMan85

Nostoi said:


> Do let me know what you think. I'm also looking at the Amperex tubes for my set-up.


I would like a tube with slam, liquid rich mids and 3d holograph sound with a large stage. 

Treble detail being the least I care about.


----------



## BlakeT (Jun 1, 2020)

Ok, I've done my A/B testing of my quad of '75 Holy Grails against my quad of early 60's Amperex PQ White labels.  I selected the Amperex a number of years ago after lots of tube rolling.  I was pretty much ready to have an Amperex logo tattooed on my arm.  Then, I came across this thread and couldn't help myself.  I've had the Holy Grails in the system for the last year and only put the Amperex back in last week.

Background:  My listening is with my speaker setup, which is in a dedicated room for my hifi.  Speakers and listening chair are in ideal locations, and I have lots of acoustic room treatments from Vicoustic and GIK (bass traps, absorption and diffusion on side walls and rear), etc.  

My system is really quite revealing of all details and nuances, has exceptional clarity, and throws a massive, holographic sound stage (I am nuts/obsessive about a large holographic sound stage), regardless of what tubes I use.  My opinions below are just comparative assessments of my Amperex PQ's to the Holy Grail tubes, nothing more.  

In my setup to my ears and preferences and just my opinion (which is not worth more or less than any other opinion): 

1. Both of these tubes are at the very top of the tubes I have tried in this family, no question about it.  I could happily live forever with either tube.  I have not tried the legendary pinched waist Amperex or Siemens CCA's (although I have some of the Siemens CCA's that were intended for a tube DAC which never materialized- my CCA's are a bit too microphonic to use in an amp, but are perfect for DAC use).

2. The Holy Grails are comparatively more caffeinated/energetic.  The details are more overt or obvious.  The overall clarity is amazing.  They are pretty linear but the overall balance is somewhat more toward the highs.  They are a very refined tube.  I had no issues with the bass performance.  Sound staging is exceptional, with very strong imaging and instrumental layering.  They are slightly drier.

3. The Amperex are comparatively wetter sounding.  The Amperex are just as detailed but the detail is presented in a more calm and relaxed manner.  Similarly strong in terms of sound stage, imaging and layering, but the Amperex sound just a bit more natural here, like the sound stage and images were cut with a knife, whereas the sound stage and images with the Grails are cut with a scalpel.  I very slightly prefer the Amperex in the bass department.  The Amperex are linear but the balance is comparatively more in the middle range of the frequency response. 

I can see why so many people love the Holy Grails.  If I had to guess, I would bet more audio enthusiasts would pick the Holy Grails over the Amperex if they tested in their system.  My reasoning is, in your typical hifi system, the user is seeking ever more clarity and detail.  If you want a tube that will really "wake up" your system, the Grails will do it.  If your system already has all of the clarity and detail you want, then I would guess that person might favor the Amperex.  For me, I think I am going to stick with my Amperex PQ's and go ahead and get that Amperex tattoo.


----------



## KenMan85

BlakeT said:


> Ok, I've done my A/B testing of my quad of '75 Holy Grails against my quad of early 60's Amperex PQ White labels.  I selected the Amperex a number of years ago after lots of tube rolling.  I was pretty much ready to have an Amperex logo tattooed on my arm.  Then, I came across this thread and couldn't help myself.  I've had the Holy Grails in the system for the last year and only put the Amperex back in last week.
> 
> Background:  My listening is with my speaker setup, which is in a dedicated room for my hifi.  Speakers and listening chair are in ideal locations, and I have lots of acoustic room treatments from Vicoustic and GIK (bass traps, absorption and diffusion on side walls and rear), etc.
> 
> ...


I'll try to grab a pair of amperex one day, but for now I'll burn in these Grail and take them for a spin.


----------



## KenMan85

A day with them and I get it. The 75 are very vocal and guitar (mid) forward. 
The detail is incredible.  A fun sound. 

Bass isn't as detailed as my stock tubes mind you.


----------



## gkg2k

KenMan85 said:


> A day with them and I get it. The 75 are very vocal and guitar (mid) forward.
> The detail is incredible.  A fun sound.
> 
> Bass isn't as detailed as my stock tubes mind you.



Totally agree so far...


----------



## KenMan85

Further findings on my 75.
/trafomatic head 2 amp 
(good amp, easy to pick up everything) 

Overall presentation :  the signature is tonaly fantastic when it comes to the presentation of cymbals, guitars, and piano.  They hit crisp, clean and have very natural and organic resonance and decay.  Music is energetic and addictive.   I legitimately have a difficult time turning the audio off and going to bed at night now.  

Stage:

The stage is wide, but it almost seems the opposite.  This is mainly due to how much music is right in your face.  The forward, aggressive, energetic method that the music hits you makes you on the tube focused mud region.  Because of this it can make it somewhat difficult to open your own scenes to the far off sounds.  When you listen to live recordings and hear the crowds it becomes very apparent that their is in fact some pretty good width. 

Height is what I've come to expect, nothing more, nothing less.  With my hifiman Arya, my bass region seems to sound like it's coming from around my chest in a dedicated sub woofer.  The mid come from roughly chin to eye level depending on imaging.  
Vocals more often than not come t
Elevated on the stage, but not nearly as high as the Tom Tom, cymbals and other pieces of drum kit. Which, I find can often feel like is floating a foot or so abovf my head; putting me right in the drummers seat. 

Depth: the forward layering is pretty great, once your hearing adapts to the very in your face nature of the vocals.   In tracks where you're used to your lead blending in somewhere on a stage maybe in a blues club... Now they're sitting across from you / you're front and centre getting a private show.
Everything else often feels behind that, but their are exceptions. 
That said theirs very much so a great deal of layering. Instrument tracks are layered in such a way that it keeps passages from Getting unpleasantly busy.  Music is layered like a sandwich or sounds in front you. 
However in my experience I found  their to be less sound passing behind. The music only ever comes from just as if someone is a step behind to the left or right. But never seems to totally be behind me. 


Imaging and seperation :
the sound positioning and seperation, simply exceptional. 
Everything has its own place.  With my Arya their isn't a 3 blob sound.  Music arches over head like a rainbow where music can be heard sweeping across all space. 
The foreground seems to be almost a grid, with a slot for each sound.  Very 3d and holographic.  I can very very easily close my eyes and see the exact origin point of each sound in my mind while staring into the black canvas. 
Coupled with a lot of air between sounds the seperation gives the experience of being at live shows and intimate venues alike, the realistic air each venue would likely afford. 

Bass: pleasing, registers to a low frequency and is controlled tight and accurate.  In standard rock its enough but its not gonna be enough for some. 
In electronic music and modern pop / rap the genres naturally push the bass up and these tubes keep up. A full rich sound that is very satisfying. 

My gripe being they it's not as easy to tell in some songs if the bass is a note from a computer or an instrument 
Noticed in Dr Dre - the difference.  My stock tubes it was clear the bass line was a tuba and trumbone n with the hg it sounded more like generic bass notes. 

The mids and vocals:
The focal point.  And in many ways the star. Detail from here up to the highs are impeccable. 
As mentioned they're very in your face, and for me it's very enjoyable.  I love hearing a singer exhale and inhale,  to hear the wavering in a note.  The hg can, at times make a record sound live.  Very evident in, 3 doors down - kryptonite. 
Guitar strings are holographic, you can very easily picture the neck of a guitar and see the vibration of steel / nylon strings.  Tonally accurate and incredibly crisp. 

Highs:  pronounced, sharp, natural and detailed.  Lots of air.  Love em.  No need to say more it's simply done right. 


Final thought:  the hg are very fun, fast and engaging.  They they have a definite bias for mids that can be polarizing.  But if you're looking for clarity  and detail in spades, they're a clear winner.  I would definitely recommend them to anyone as a must try.  They may not be the one for you, but you'll at the very least appreciate them for what they can do right.


----------



## gkg2k

KenMan85 said:


> I would definitely recommend them to anyone as a must try.  They may not be the one for you, but you'll at the very least appreciate them for what they can do right.



Thanks for your report!

I totally agree, the HG does mervellously what it is famous for.

But it's not perfect, as any other tube, and my system requires *perfect bass* that the HG can't deliver.

I'll make them burn-in before selling them!

Gianluca


----------



## TK16 (Jun 5, 2020)

Hey fellas, schitt lyr thread tube rollers thread is chock full of 6922 variants tube rolling experience. Mostly towards the beginning. Last few 3 plus years are mostly adapter tubes 5660 variants, ECC81, ECC82 variants, 6CC41, 6CC42, 6N3P etc.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/schiit-lyr-tube-rollers.673709/
You can skim through the comedy related posts, I most certainly are not guilty of those posts.


----------



## Nostoi

KenMan85 said:


> Further findings on my 75.
> /trafomatic head 2 amp
> (good amp, easy to pick up everything)
> 
> ...


Great report, thanks. How much burning in did you do for this out of interest? I think you're right about them being mid-centric, which is possiblly why I resist mine.


----------



## KenMan85

Nostoi said:


> Great report, thanks. How much burning in did you do for this out of interest? I think you're right about them being mid-centric, which is possiblly why I resist mine.


None.  Tubes burn in is only required if they make noise. These do not. 

After 40 hrs of listening theirs been no sonic change.


----------



## gkg2k

KenMan85 said:


> None.  Tubes burn in is only required if they make noise. These do not.
> 
> After 40 hrs of listening theirs been no sonic change.



40h are too few to hear differences.

imho.

Gianluca


----------



## KenMan85

gkg2k said:


> 40h are too few to hear differences.
> 
> imho.
> 
> Gianluca


How many than?


----------



## gkg2k

KenMan85 said:


> How many than?



~400


----------



## CaptainFantastic

Hi everyone. I am happy to have found this thread.

I am very new to tube amps. I use as driver tubes on my Woo WA3 either Telefunken E88CCs by JJ Audio or Tesla E88CCs NOS.

Do you think that these 6922s (wooaudio.com/tubes/amperex-6922-pair) are a good upgrade and not too overpriced? Being new to tubes, I am hesitant to purchase on eBay as I have very little experience to evaluate if what I got is good. 

Thanks!


----------



## KenMan85

CaptainFantastic said:


> Hi everyone. I am happy to have found this thread.
> 
> I am very new to tube amps. I use as driver tubes on my Woo WA3 either Telefunken E88CCs by JJ Audio or Tesla E88CCs NOS.
> 
> ...


Buy from a tube dealer when possible,  if you have to use eBay, check feedback. I can voucher for brandmix19 as a seller of real tubes in there. Bug that's it. So far.


----------



## gkg2k

CaptainFantastic said:


> Hi everyone. I am happy to have found this thread.
> 
> I am very new to tube amps. I use as driver tubes on my Woo WA3 either Telefunken E88CCs by JJ Audio or Tesla E88CCs NOS.
> 
> ...



I'd go for NOS. I bought my NOS original 60's Telefunken E88CC pair (not made by JJ  ) from Tubeworld Express and it was great to deal with Brendan!


----------



## Nostoi

I'm selling my Reflectors here if anyone's interested. They're great tubes but too mid-centric for me. I'm quite happy with my Tungsram tubes but I'll probably go for Telefunkens next.


----------



## Nostoi

Can someone with Telefunken knowledge give me a brief heads up on the different gradients they come in? The prices seem to vary widely as do the specification. Is there a broad agreement which are the best? What's the deal with the Lorenz label versions? And the diamond bottom ones? Any overview of what to avoid would be much appreciated. Thanks.


----------



## spyder1

Nostoi,
Telefunken come in different 6DJ8 gradients. As you go up the gradient ladder the price increases. They are 6DJ8/ECC88, 6922/E88CC, 7308/E188CC, and CCa. All have etched diamond on the bottom of vacuum tube.


----------



## hp4fun

Hello 2021!

I have a quick question: I got some 6922 variants (Amperex 6Dj8 and 6N23P to be exact) and they all have the same problem: the left channel volume is much lower than the right channel. I have to increase the volume to 3pm to hear some music on the left channel. but if so, occasionally the left channel have some broken sound that are as loud as the right channel.

They are from different sources and I am surprised that they have the same problem. If they are all dying / dead, why it is always the left channel? 

The right channel sound is actually pretty good for all of them. The amp is fine too. I have a 7308 and used to have a GL 6922 that sounds pretty nice on it.


----------



## AuditoryCanvas

hp4fun said:


> Hello 2021!
> 
> I have a quick question: I got some 6922 variants (Amperex 6Dj8 and 6N23P to be exact) and they all have the same problem: the left channel volume is much lower than the right channel. I have to increase the volume to 3pm to hear some music on the left channel. but if so, occasionally the left channel have some broken sound that are as loud as the right channel.
> 
> ...


If you switch the tubes (left tube in right socket and vice versa) does the problem follow the tube, or does it stay on the left channel? Are you using socket savers?


----------



## hp4fun

AuditoryCanvas said:


> If you switch the tubes (left tube in right socket and vice versa) does the problem follow the tube, or does it stay on the left channel? Are you using socket savers?



No socket saver.

My amp only has a single tube. Sad that I cannot verify it by swapping.

Thanks for the prompt reply!


----------



## AuditoryCanvas

hp4fun said:


> No socket saver.
> 
> My amp only has a single tube. Sad that I cannot verify it by swapping.
> 
> Thanks for the prompt reply!


Do you have tubes that don't have the issue? If so, it sounds like the new tubes you got are dying on one triode.


----------



## hp4fun

AuditoryCanvas said:


> Do you have tubes that don't have the issue? If so, it sounds like the new tubes you got are dying on one triode.



I have a 7308 that works fine on both channels. I also thought one triode is dying but if so, the fact that all 5 have the same problem and the same channel surprised me.

The 6n23p was described as tested. I don't think they are the 75 reflector but hope they did not fake the test too:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/TESTED-PAI...860623?hash=item3b55ff3b0f:g:sT4AAOSwJ09gADK2


----------



## AuditoryCanvas

hp4fun said:


> I have a 7308 that works fine on both channels. I also thought one triode is dying but if so, the fact that all 5 have the same problem and the same channel surprised me.
> 
> The 6n23p was described as tested. I don't think they are the 75 reflector but hope they did not fake the test too:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/TESTED-PAI...860623?hash=item3b55ff3b0f:g:sT4AAOSwJ09gADK2


The year is stamped on the bottom right of the logo on those. Most Russian tubes have the year on them in standard form, as opposed to a date code like other tubes. 

It is unusual that all 5 have the same bad triode.  Do both triode heaters light up? Try giving the pins a clean?

What amp is it?


----------



## Velomane (Feb 14, 2021)

What's a socket saver? The first few pages of an internet search shows plumbing stuff.


----------



## AuditoryCanvas

Velomane said:


> What's a socket saver? The first few pages of an internet search shows plumbing stuff.


Try searching tube socket saver.

they basically stay in the amp, and you put your tubes into it. It saves the pins on the amp socket from wear if you’re doing a lot of tube swapping.

https://tubedepot.com/products/9-pi...MI7_CKh7Lq7gIVLfbjBx2M0AxaEAQYAiABEgK5TPD_BwE


----------



## hp4fun

AuditoryCanvas said:


> The year is stamped on the bottom right of the logo on those. Most Russian tubes have the year on them in standard form, as opposed to a date code like other tubes.
> 
> It is unusual that all 5 have the same bad triode.  Do both triode heaters light up? Try giving the pins a clean?
> 
> What amp is it?



It is a SMSL T1. I wanted to resurrect it as a tube preamp. Both sides light up and I feel the heats too.





The pins are too clean and that's why I don't think it was made in 1975, regardless the year stamp on it. Steel still shows its age after 30+ yrs.


----------



## AuditoryCanvas

hp4fun said:


> It is a SMSL T1. I wanted to resurrect it as a tube preamp. Both sides light up and I feel the heats too.
> 
> 
> The pins are too clean and that's why I don't think it was made in 1975, regardless the year stamp on it. Steel still shows its age after 30+ yrs.


I don't doubt the year. the one you pictured has rhodium plated pins, hence them remaining shiny. The internal construction is also classic 70s Russian tube.

Stock tube for that amp is a 6N11, which is a chinese equivalent of 6922, 6n23p being a Russian equivalent, electrical spec across all of them is very close, so that shouldn't be an issue.

I would normally suggest checking the amp socket pins are tight, but the Russian tubes typically have a slightly thicker pin, so if the 7308 you have works, I doubt that's the issue. 

If the amp has been sat a while, I do recommend using electrical switch cleaner on the tube socket. Make sure it's unplugged from the power when you do.

I've had several large batches of 6n23p in the past, and while they were sold as NOS, about 40% plus of each batch were bad, but that seller is relatively trustworthy, and also provide test results, so I think it's worth giving the pins a clean with switch cleaner, and also giving the tube socket a clean just to be sure.


----------



## hp4fun (Feb 19, 2021)

AuditoryCanvas said:


> I don't doubt the year. the one you pictured has rhodium plated pins, hence them remaining shiny. The internal construction is also classic 70s Russian tube.
> 
> Stock tube for that amp is a 6N11, which is a chinese equivalent of 6922, 6n23p being a Russian equivalent, electrical spec across all of them is very close, so that shouldn't be an issue.
> 
> ...



Answering my own questions. I solved the problem.

It turns out there are two "knobs" (with the number 202 shown in the picture) that I can turn using a screwdriver. Not sure what they control but apparently one controls each channel, and the left channel knob was slightly "off".

When I plugged 6DJ8 and 6N23P and turned it to the full, the left channel started to have great sound.

Does anyone know what they are for?


----------



## MikeO3 (Feb 27, 2021)

Just a forewarning I am a total noob to tube rolling and the headphone amp hobby diversion (😊) but over the last couple of months I have really appreciated rolling a few different tubes with my Liquid Platinum. I definitely don’t feel qualified to provide an authoritive review on what consists of various audio acoustic differences and deep analysis of my cans with different tubes. I hear what I hear and appreciate sound delivery from my POV. That’s what it’s all about isn’t it? What sounds good to me maybe crap for someone else!

But what I can offer is a one paragraph comment about what I think about the three sets of tubes I popped into my LP amp. Perhaps overtime I can become more refined in my analytical reviewing skills and re-post a better review. Tube rolling opinions appear to have grown into something somewhat like cigar wannabee aficionados’ opinions… What is a pepper and coffee taste in the 1st half of a cigar? Cigar leaves have no pepper and no coffee in them so how can smoking a cigar provide these flavours? Tube/amp/headphone reviews and audiophile opinions seem to have taken on a lingo of their of their own with interpretive meaning to the reviewer and complete verbal diarrhea for a reader! Just saying...

Anyway, let’s move on… I have read Post #1 and hopefully my comments cover the various aspects of an expected evaluation and feedback when it comes to tube opinions.


*1st up is the Monolith LP stock 6922 Electro-Harmonix*
These sounded pretty nice, clear and certainly provided multi-tiered sound-stage in my Senn HD820’s and no distortion at various sound levels for high, mid and low frequencies. Blackness was black and bass kinda meh but was certainly present without EQ adjustments. Sting’s Brand New Day sounded pretty good.

*2nd set is Russian Reflector 6H23P-EB / 6922*
These are very nice all round and represented a wide sound stage (maybe the headphones of course). Very clear rendition and provided a warm sound with Jazz and female vocals. Rock, House and heavy pounding are well represented and certainly did not tire after long sessions. Classical and opera very clear and sharp vocals for soprano's. On some tracks there definitely seemed to be tiny highs rendered which was a little painful but maybe could be attributed to crap engineering and track laydowns.

*3rd up is the Mullard Holland E188CC 7308 O Getter Gold Pins (Holland build)*
Like wow, OMG… Sorry for the Valley Girl lingo but I can’t believe the acoustical & clear rendering compared to the other two tubes above. There is so much fullness on all levels and clarity representation no matter what I throw at them. Alison Balsom trumpets are so vivid, Keith Richards raunchy vocals & sharp guitar notes are totally clear. Deep bass organ music and classical orchestral renditions are present with multi-level back, front, top presence in the headphones. Skrillex Bangarang and Morcheeba’s Set your Sails are awesome with immersion and a lot of depth for electro tracks as if you were in a Rave Club! Sting’s Brand New Day is the best version I have heard even comparing to my CIEM’s sound-stage. I could just go on but you probably need to listen for yourself.

Hopefully you find the above useful in your quest to find the perfect roll! Seriously been thinking my next hardware quest to be an expensive OTL or maybe the new McIntosh MHA200 but honestly listening to these latest tubes I think it will be sometime before I can top the sound of my current configuration.


----------



## hp4fun

I have a good experience with the dirt cheap Amperex orange global 6DJ8 (steel pin). I like it better than the 75' 6N23P (assuming I got the genuine one), the Gold Lion 6922, and the amperex orange globe 7308.


----------



## jamess71

hp4fun said:


> Answering my own questions. I solved the problem.
> 
> It turns out there are two "knobs" (with the number 202 shown in the picture) that I can turn using a screwdriver. Not sure what they control but apparently one controls each channel, and the left channel knob was slightly "off".
> 
> ...


I would assume that they are biasing potentiometers. They would be used to adjust the voltage going to the tubes, left and right. It could be to adjust for voltages for different tubes and also for balancing the tubes. You can also see a jumper switch to change from 6v to 12v.


----------



## hp4fun

Today I tried 6922/6DJ8 on a 6SN7 preamp using an adapter.

It works "fine" (nothing blown, hot, no one cried), except that I feel 6SN7 has a wider soundstage and full(er) bodied experience. Any comments about (not) doing this?

6922 tube: Amperex OG 6DJ8
6SN7: Raytheon brown base 6SN7WGT
preamp: Schiit saga

I am also waiting for a 6SN7 to 6922 adapter, so I can try the 6SN7 on the 6922 amp. Risky business everyday!


----------



## carrots99

Hi, I didn't yet go through this whole thread, but can't yet decide which tubes to buy to put on my Matisse clone : 6N3P, Tesla 6CC42, Tesla E88CC or some Reflektor 6N23P-EV. 6N3P are the cheaper ones, but are they worth it comparing 5o all other ones?


----------



## KenMan85

I bought the hg.  I will literally not buy another tube variant now. But I want forward, crisp and detailed.  I suppose you need to decide what you're wanting first.


----------



## carrots99

I would want a tube where I could get a nice soundstage and instrument separation, but also a touch of the old tubey sound. 

Had the same doubts on whatever tube should I use on my Fxaudio Tube 03, where I love the Russian 6J1P-EV and 6J38P, having a nice bass, but then I tried a 6BE6W that I consider to have a much better soundstage and instrument separation, but lacks bass a little more and it heats up a lot...


----------



## M-83

Hi,  Does anyone have experience of Sylvania 6B27 6BQ7A tubes? I have inherited a couple from the previous owner of Lyr 2, along with a pair of Genalex Gold Lion.

Currently have Amperex ECC88 tubes in Lyr 2, and I like the sound they produce more than my Amperex Bugle Boys.


----------



## sahmen

I would like a matched pair of Amperex 7308 tubes, the type one associate with "great bass," particularly those from Holland. (i think they might be the ones ranked at #5 in the lead post of this thread.  The issue is that it is hard for me to sort out the authentic ones from the inappropriate ones in the open market, especially since I see some for sale on ebay listed as Amperex 7308, without those numbers seemingly appearing on the Tubes themselves.  

Are these for example legit ?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/133496417028?hash=item1f1501ab04:g:9WEAAOSwyKlfOwKp

If not what is the best way to identify the appropriate ones when I see them?

Are there any reliable dealers who sell these regularly at a reasonable price?


----------



## Wes S (Jul 3, 2021)

sahmen said:


> I would like a matched pair of Amperex 7308 tubes, the type one associate with "great bass," particularly those from Holland. (i think they might be the ones ranked at #5 in the lead post of this thread.  The issue is that it is hard for me to sort out the authentic ones from the inappropriate ones in the open market, especially since I see some for sale on ebay listed as Amperex 7308, without those numbers seemingly appearing on the Tubes themselves.
> 
> Are these for example legit ?
> 
> ...


Those are not 7308 or E188CC, they are normal E88CC.

7308 is the USA version, so I would look for E188CC if you want to find the Holland version.  Also, look for the acid etched codes on the tube and there should be a the letters VR followed by a number and then below that a little triangle followed by a number, letter, number.

Here is a pair of the E188CC from Holland.  https://www.ebay.com/itm/402891345764?hash=item5dce320f64:g:YI4AAOSwpnZghmvs

and another https://www.ebay.com/itm/184896793323?hash=item2b0cb52aeb:g:BAQAAOSwso5gzxPb

one more pair https://www.ebay.com/itm/393253631070?hash=item5b8fbe345e:g:vDEAAOSwcChgC7VQ

The E188CC from Holland is becoming quite rare and hard to find, hence the prices.


----------



## sahmen

Wes S said:


> Those are not 7308 or E188CC, they are normal E88CC.
> 
> 7308 is the USA version, so I would look for E188CC if you want to find the Holland version.  Also, look for the acid etched codes on the tube and there should be a the letters VR followed by a number and then below that a little triangle followed by a number, letter, number.
> 
> ...


Thanks


----------



## thecrow

@sahmen in case you haven’t come across these sources these might help identify tubes.

they were the first source I used when looking at 6dj8 tubes

http://www.audiotubes.com/6dj8.htm

https://www.audioasylum.com/scripts/d.pl?audio/faq/joes-tubes.html#6DJ8


----------



## Wes S

@sahmen  I would also suggest looking through this thread, as it is the best tube rolling thread on the forum and I promise you will find every answer you could ever need in this thread.  https://www.head-fi.org/threads/schiit-lyr-tube-rollers.673709/.

There is a ton of info, and the search option is your friend.


----------



## thecrow

Wes S said:


> @sahmen  I would also suggest looking through this thread, as it is the best tube rolling thread on the forum and I promise you will find every answer you could ever need in this thread.  https://www.head-fi.org/threads/schiit-lyr-tube-rollers.673709/.
> 
> There is a ton of info, and the search option is your friend.


+1

(though you guys get a bit crazy on that thread with adapters and collecting tubes like they were going out of fashion)


----------



## Wes S

thecrow said:


> +1
> 
> (though you guys get a bit crazy on that thread with adapters and collecting tubes like they were going out of fashion)


All it takes it a quick listen of said tubes "going out of fashion...with adapters" and you will understand why we get so crazy.


----------



## sahmen

thecrow said:


> @sahmen in case you haven’t come across these sources these might help identify tubes.
> 
> they were the first source I used when looking at 6dj8 tubes
> 
> ...


@thecrow those are really helpful sources. Thanks.


----------



## CJG888

Currently running a Reflektor 6H23N-EB (balanced triodes, selected by Watford Valves) on the input of my WBA Tzar. It is clearly better than the NOS disc getter Mullard CV4108 (equivalent to 7308) and 1975 Sylvania 7308 which I was using before. Wider image, more midrange detail, tighter bass. It only loses out slightly in bass extension and PRaT. And no microphony. At all.

Bargain!


----------



## LLee7582

Just discovered this thread a couple of months ago... recently purchased a Lyr3 and bc I was so impressed and made so curious with this thread that I purchased an adaptor so I can roll the 6922. Was wondering if anyone here has rolled the 6922 w/ adaptor in place of 6SN7 tubes. Impressions?


----------



## K3cT

Guys, new to the tube game here. Are the 1975 Reflektor still considered the 'Holy Grail' nowadays? Their prices are insane now. 😓


----------



## KenMan85

K3cT said:


> Guys, new to the tube game here. Are the 1975 Reflektor still considered the 'Holy Grail' nowadays? Their prices are insane now. 😓


I have four or 5 of them in my stock.  I like them.


----------



## K3cT

I am trying the 1974 SWGP silver shield Reflektor (I believe they're #4 in OP's ranking?) and while overall they sound excellent, they sound a bit bass light and there is a sheen in the upper mid / low treble that sounds a bit unnatural. I'm going to compare them with some Philips SQ E88CC and see how they do.


----------



## thecrow

K3cT said:


> I am trying the 1974 SWGP silver shield Reflektor (I believe they're #4 in OP's ranking?) and while overall they sound excellent, they sound a bit bass light and there is a sheen in the upper mid / low treble that sounds a bit unnatural. I'm going to compare them with some Philips SQ E88CC and see how they do.


I found the “holy grails” of this thread a little too bass lite for me too and subsequently sold them


----------



## sahmen

sahmen said:


> I would like a matched pair of Amperex 7308 tubes, the type one associate with "great bass," particularly those from Holland. (i think they might be the ones ranked at #5 in the lead post of this thread.  The issue is that it is hard for me to sort out the authentic ones from the inappropriate ones in the open market, especially since I see some for sale on ebay listed as Amperex 7308, without those numbers seemingly appearing on the Tubes themselves.
> 
> Are these for example legit ?
> 
> ...


I seller just found a pair of these Amperex 7308/188CC Holland babies for. I just want to know whether they're the legit legendary bass version before I pounce :  
'
'https://www.ebay.com/itm/1150938834...,osub=osub,crd=crd,segname=segname,chnl=mkcid

So what do you think? Are they?


----------



## K3cT

sahmen said:


> I seller just found a pair of these Amperex 7308/188CC Holland babies for. I just want to know whether they're the legit legendary bass version before I pounce :
> '
> 'https://www.ebay.com/itm/115093883450?mkevt=1&mkpid=0&emsid=e11051.m43.l1123&mkcid=7&ch=osgood&euid=624b64f0bb0a401ea976a4b000acd353&bu=43202486616&osub=-1~1&crd=20211118214742&segname=11051&sojTags=ch=ch,bu=bu,osub=osub,crd=crd,segname=segname,chnl=mkcid
> 
> So what do you think? Are they?



Gone. Did you manage to get them?


----------



## bagwell359

Oh man those 188CC's look a tad underrated, but a great list,


----------



## watchnerd

I have one pair of Toshiba 7DJ8 / PC88 but can't find any others.


----------



## K3cT

So after testing the Philips SQ in the SFD-2 for about 2 weeks I can conclude that they do indeed have a great bass and a very 3D sound. They do add a slight "sweet" colouration and a slight relaxed presentation (the edges of sound are not emphasized so much, unlike the 70s Siemens E88CC or the Reflektor SWGP '74). This happens to work very well with my rather neutral frontend (GS-X MK2 and Utopia) but I think you need to be cautious of the whole system synergy with these particular tubes.


----------



## watchnerd

bagwell359 said:


> Oh man those 188CC's look a tad underrated, but a great list,



I'm coming to like my E188CC's (Siemens, Mullard, Amperex) a lot.

Listening to my Siemens E188C's now.  I think they're from the 1960s, but I can't decipher the date code and it doesn't match the format I've seen before.


----------



## adrenal (Dec 13, 2021)

Can anyone identify these. Markings:
National
6922/E88CC
Made in USSR

Look like 80's Voskhod maybe?
I know they made tubes under other brand names..


----------



## sahmen

K3cT said:


> Gone. Did you manage to get them?


Yes.


----------



## watchnerd

adrenal said:


> Can anyone identify these. Markings:
> National
> 6922/E88CC
> Made in USSR
> ...



But National is usually Matsushita, i.e. Japanese.

I thought at first that was the Svetlana logo, but I don't think it is.

That's a weird one.


----------



## adrenal (Dec 14, 2021)

With the UFO getter its def Russian.
Looks like 80's Voskhod per the attached pic which I found in this thread...
I'll take some better pics.


----------



## CJG888

I got a few tubes from that brand from Cricklewood Electronics in the 1990s. Definitely Russian NOS, presumably 80s. IIRC, they weren’t bad.


----------



## adrenal (Dec 14, 2021)

I kinda like em too. Mind you, only rolled 3 x types: Electro Harmonix 9266 (original vanilla fitment), Siemens E188CC's, and these strange Nationals which sounded the best.
Can't for the life of me remember where I got them from or what their story was. Have been away from this stuff for years  - just getting back into it. Hence the question about what, exactly, I have plugged into the amp. My, tubes have become exy in my absence. Should have bought up big way back when..!


----------



## CJG888

adrenal said:


> I kinda like em too. Mind you, only rolled 3 x types: Electro Harmonix 9266 (original vanilla fitment), Siemens E188CC's, and these strange Nationals which sounded the best.
> Can't for the life of me remember where I got them from or what their story was. Have been away from this stuff for years  - just getting back into it. Hence the question about what, exactly, I have plugged into the amp. My, tubes have become exy in my absence. Should have bought up big way back when..!


Are you based in the UK?

I wonder if those National tubes may be Cricklewood rebrands. Chelmer did something similar at the time.


----------



## adrenal

CJG888 said:


> Are you based in the UK?
> 
> I wonder if those National tubes may be Cricklewood rebrands. Chelmer did something similar at the time.



Nope, Antipodes (Melbourne). All I remember is that I bought them from Europe somewhere. Could have been the UK. Checked things like paypal records but zip, too far back.
The mysterious good sounding tube..


----------



## K3cT

A kind colleague has this interesting 6922 tube. Is this the Sylvania D-getter type?


----------



## MWSVette (Mar 8, 2022)

K3cT said:


> A kind colleague has this interesting 6922 tube. Is this the Sylvania D-getter type?




Yes... Though probably manufactured by someone else and labeled Sylvania.


----------



## BlakeT

Just for experimental/messing around purposes, I would like to try some 6922-family tubes that are excessively warm, rolled-off, gooey, to the extreme.

If anyone has recommendations, please let me know.  Again, I'm looking for the most extreme examples of warm, rolled-off, etc.  TIA.


----------



## K3cT

BlakeT said:


> Just for experimental/messing around purposes, I would like to try some 6922-family tubes that are excessively warm, rolled-off, gooey, to the extreme.
> 
> If anyone has recommendations, please let me know.  Again, I'm looking for the most extreme examples of warm, rolled-off, etc.  TIA.



From what I read elsewhere, a Western Electric 396A with adapter fits this kind of sound profile well.


----------



## sahmen

Okay will these tubes do for someone looking for a pair of Amperex 7308's with that famous bass and excellent resolution?  I'm intrigued by the D-Getter tag, but have no way of knowing if this is the genuine article or if it is some overpriced junk.  In other words, I still do not know how to separate "great'" from "no so great" or "snake oil" on the market. So y'all's help would be much appreciated :

https://www.ebay.com/itm/3940235876...,osub=osub,crd=crd,segname=segname,chnl=mkcid

The amp of interest is the Pathos InPol Ear. Many thanks.


----------



## AudioDuck

sahmen said:


> Okay will these tubes do for someone looking for a pair of Amperex 7308's with that famous bass and excellent resolution?  I'm intrigued by the D-Getter tag, but have no way of knowing if this is the genuine article or if it is some overpriced junk.  In other words, I still do not know how to separate "great'" from "no so great" or "snake oil" on the market. So y'all's help would be much appreciated :
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/394023587638?mkevt=1&mkpid=0&emsid=e11021.m43.l3160&mkcid=7&ch=osgood&euid=5861ea222439493d9164c94e6b136337&bu=43202486616&ut=RU&osub=-1~1&crd=20220409041532&segname=11021&sojTags=ch=ch,bu=bu,ut=ut,osub=osub,crd=crd,segname=segname,chnl=mkcid
> 
> The amp of interest is the Pathos InPol Ear. Many thanks.


Two thoughts:
1. From what reviews of seen for this seller, they seem legit. *That said, I’ve not bought from this seller.*
2. That is really darn expensive for Amperex 7308s. I know they’ve increased in price a great deal since I bought mine for $175 on Head-Fi a year or so ago, but I’d be tempted to look for them under $300, at least.

I do love mine, they are amazing, but I would not have paid over $400 for them.


----------



## BlakeT

sahmen said:


> Okay will these tubes do for someone looking for a pair of Amperex 7308's with that famous bass and excellent resolution?  I'm intrigued by the D-Getter tag, but have no way of knowing if this is the genuine article or if it is some overpriced junk.  In other words, I still do not know how to separate "great'" from "no so great" or "snake oil" on the market. So y'all's help would be much appreciated :
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/394023587638?mkevt=1&mkpid=0&emsid=e11021.m43.l3160&mkcid=7&ch=osgood&euid=5861ea222439493d9164c94e6b136337&bu=43202486616&ut=RU&osub=-1~1&crd=20220409041532&segname=11021&sojTags=ch=ch,bu=bu,ut=ut,osub=osub,crd=crd,segname=segname,chnl=mkcid
> 
> The amp of interest is the Pathos InPol Ear. Many thanks.



The seller is great to deal with.  I purchased some old first series Mullard E88CC's from him a few weeks ago.


----------



## K3cT

$465 is too expensive for a pair of well used tubes. Prices of 6922 tubes are insane now, perhaps it's worth investigating using adapters to substitute them. The Schiit Lyr tube rolling thread has some great resources on this topic.


----------



## Wes S

sahmen said:


> Okay will these tubes do for someone looking for a pair of Amperex 7308's with that famous bass and excellent resolution?  I'm intrigued by the D-Getter tag, but have no way of knowing if this is the genuine article or if it is some overpriced junk.  In other words, I still do not know how to separate "great'" from "no so great" or "snake oil" on the market. So y'all's help would be much appreciated :
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/394023587638?mkevt=1&mkpid=0&emsid=e11021.m43.l3160&mkcid=7&ch=osgood&euid=5861ea222439493d9164c94e6b136337&bu=43202486616&ut=RU&osub=-1~1&crd=20220409041532&segname=11021&sojTags=ch=ch,bu=bu,ut=ut,osub=osub,crd=crd,segname=segname,chnl=mkcid
> 
> The amp of interest is the Pathos InPol Ear. Many thanks.


Those are legit, but are not 7308 and will have a slightly different sound sig.  The 7308 are more forward in the mids and mid bass.  The 6922  D Getters have more subbass focus, and are not quite as forward in the mids (especially vocals) with better extension up top, compared to the 7308.  Those tubes in the listing are the very rare "tall bottle" D Getter version of which are more organic and natural sounding than the latter O Getter version.  $465 is quite high, but honestly those are as rare as they come these days, so I imagine the prices will only keep rising. . .


----------



## gkg2k

Hi, did anyone try the super-expensive Telefunken EC8020?


----------



## K3cT

I have a chance to get another unusual E88CC tubes, supposedly Philips Heerlen D getter. Do these look like the real deal?


----------



## Wes S (Jun 12, 2022)

K3cT said:


> I have a chance to get another unusual E88CC tubes, supposedly Philips Heerlen D getter. Do these look like the real deal?


Looks like a 58' Heerlen D Getter, and is one of the better examples of that tube type.  Can't beat having that acid etched code that tells all. The triangle = Heerlen and the 8 is for 58' and C is for 3rd month = March


----------



## billerb1

That's a keeper.


----------



## K3cT

Thanks @billerb1 and @Wes S ! I'm pretty new to this tube world and it's hard finding authentic tubes in this part of the world. If I can ask for your advise again what do you guys think of these tubes offered by the same seller? Supposedly Siemens E188CC and the code in metal tag (G 1 7 C ?) seems to indicate that these are later production tubes?


----------



## reg66

Hi guys, I just bought a 1975 reflector, single wire, advertised as silver shield (I don't know what the silver shield is that I'm looking for. Can any of you experts tell me if this tube is the real deal (the Holy grail mentioned in post 1). I appreciate its not got a military stamp on it. Does that matter? Cheers


----------



## wirefriend

reg66 said:


> Hi guys, I just bought a 1975 reflector, single wire, advertised as silver shield (I don't know what the silver shield is that I'm looking for. Can any of you experts tell me if this tube is the real deal (the Holy grail mentioned in post 1). I appreciate its not got a military stamp on it. Does that matter? Cheers


It looks legit to me. The military ratings are to be expected for -EV series, not this one.
See: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/where-is-the-grey-or-silver-shield-of-a-tube.926728/


----------



## spyder1

reg66 said:


> I don't know what the silver shield is that I'm looking for


Silver shield is the two silver posts on each side of vacuum tube. Grey shield is two grey posts. Your 6N23P Reflector, is an authentic 1975 Silver Shield vacuum tube.


----------



## reg66 (Jul 28, 2022)

So my tube, the 1975 Reflector above, arrived today from ebay. All is well apart from the tube has a ringing in the right channel with the slightest touch of any of the surrounding things in close proximity. Even my amp (Lyr 3) has a cut off until the tube has warmed up for around 45 secs, after the 45 sec warm up time even the relay(?) clicking the tube sound on causes it to ring in the left channel.

Being a noob to tubes, does this mean the tube has A. had a knock, B. on its way out - EOL, or could it be as simple as C. that the tube just needs time to burn in?

The tube was advertised as NOS, but no returns. Going to look for a local business that has a tester at the weekend to test the tube but would like opinions in the mean time from you guys in the know about these things.

I have a Ken Rad VT231 that rang on the right channel when touching anything close by, but that also had an audible hum intermittently in same channel. My father reckons it _could _be because it's on its way out. Is it the same case with the ringing mentioned above - that the tube is dying? The ringing clears after a few seconds each time its present. But even pausing loudish music causes it to ring for a few seconds also. There is no deep hum like the Ken Rad, but the reflector does ring like a chime if you tap it super gently whilst on (left channel only).

Any help is much appreciated


----------



## K3cT

Have you tried adding dampening rings to the tube?


----------



## reg66 (Jul 29, 2022)

K3cT said:


> Have you tried adding dampening rings to the tube?


Not yet, got some on order at the mo to see if that helps. Can a new (NOS) tube have this issue or only old used ones?

My main concern is that the tube will blow whilst headphones plgged in and wipe out the headphones (pretty sure I read somewhere this happened to at least 1 person with a Lyr amp)


----------



## K3cT

If isolating the tube or equipment doesn't work then either tube is EOL or just doesn't work well in that circuit. I find that some tube that's noisy in equipment A can surprisingly work well in equipment B, this whole thing has been an interesting learning experience. 

Still I will note that the 6N23P has been one of my quieter tube.


----------



## CJG888

I have found that all ECC88-equivalent tubes are somewhat prone to noise and microphony. About half of my NOS collection are absolutely quiet.

Best have proven to be disc-getter Mullards.


----------



## reg66 (Aug 9, 2022)

So! The original is microphonic, dampers haven't arrived yet but... I found another reflector 6N23p advertised as a holy grail tube and bought it from USSR tubes here.

However, I now have reservations. There is no mention of SWGP. What even is the SWGP part of its designation!? Have I just paid for an inferior tube? It says Voshod Plant for the brand, although it's listed as Reflector.... Confused!!

EDIT: Single Wire Getter Post!! Have just found out... Now just the brand confsuses me lol

Any help is most appreciated


----------



## K3cT

reg66 said:


> So! The original is microphonic, dampers haven't arrived yet but... I found another reflector 6N23p advertised as a holy grail tube and bought it from USSR tubes here.
> 
> However, I now have reservations. There is no mention of SWGP. What even is the SWGP part of its designation!? Have I just paid for an inferior tube? It says Voshod Plant for the brand, although it's listed as Reflector.... Confused!!
> 
> Any help is most appreciated



SWGP = single wire getter plate. It refers to the construction of the getter, you can search in this thread for a more detailed diagram. 

Voskhod and Reflektor are different factories that make the 6N23P IIRC. Voskhod tubes have this rocket like emblem on their tubes. Reflector has a different emblem, like the one you linked.


----------



## reg66

K3cT said:


> SWGP = single wire getter plate. It refers to the construction of the getter, you can search in this thread for a more detailed diagram.
> 
> Voskhod and Reflektor are different factories that make the 6N23P IIRC. Voskhod tubes have this rocket like emblem on their tubes. Reflector has a different emblem, like the one you linked.


Ahh ok, so providing the pics match when it arrives it's a Reflector, right? Should a Voskhod turn up, do they even sound close? Cheers very much for the prompt reply


----------



## K3cT

I have used 1974 Reflektor SWGP with silver shield, they're pretty decent tubes. not warm sounding at all. Quite fast and airy. Can be a bit bright. 

I haven't tried Voskhod before. I just ordered a 1975 gray shield but they haven't arrived yet. I'm curious how they compare myself because there isn't a clear consensus which one is better.


----------



## reg66

K3cT said:


> I have used 1974 Reflektor SWGP with silver shield, they're pretty decent tubes. not warm sounding at all. Quite fast and airy. Can be a bit bright.
> 
> I haven't tried Voskhod before. I just ordered a 1975 gray shield but they haven't arrived yet. I'm curious how they compare myself because there isn't a clear consensus which one is better.


OK, many thanks. Still a bit doubtful of what will turn up as, like you say, the pics show a Reflector but the brand description says Voskhod Plant. Will have to wait and see i guess!


----------



## K3cT (Oct 3, 2022)

Based on the older discussion in this thread there is a possibility to replace 6922 / 6DJ8 with 2C51 / 396A type + adapter and since I've tried almost all the popular 6922 types I thought I wanted to try something different. I went with the Western Electric 396A JW square getter from early 50s since they seem to be a safe bet.

I still need to listen to them more but initial impressions that the 396A sounds "big", esp. human vocal sounds taller and presented quite upfront. Soundstage is also excellent in terms of width and depth, probably better than any of my 6922s. The 396A also has a punchy and hard hitting bass, I actually need to dial down the low shelf knob on my monitor speakers lol. These definitely lean towards warmth but they're not muddy and still have quite good details unlike some Mullard tubes.


----------



## CAJames (Oct 1, 2022)

Yes. I like 2C51 / 396A types instead of 6DJ8/6922 in my speaker amps as well. I haven't actually tried the WE, my favorite is the Tesla 6CC42. I have some really nice pinched waist, cross swords that sound fantastic, but even "plain" 6CC42s sound really good. For cheap the humble GE 5670 and the Russian 6N3P-DR (but not so much other designations) punch well above their weight, at least in my gear. FTR/FWIW I bought all my 6N3Ps before the war, I don't know what the current prices are like.


----------



## K3cT

CAJames said:


> Yes. I like 2C51 / 396A types instead of 6DJ8/6922 in my speaker amps as well. I haven't actually tried the WE, my favorite is the Tesla 6CC42. I have some really nice pinched waist, cross swords that sound fantastic, but even "plain" 6CC42s sound really good. For cheap the humble GE 5670 and the Russian 6N3P-DR (but not so much other designations) punch well above their weight, at least in my gear. FTR/FWIW I bought all my 6N3Ps before the war, I don't know what the current prices are like.



Thanks for the tip! I'm on the lookout for a more "neutral" pair as a partner for the WE so these look like they will fit the bill. I read that Tung-sol and some old Soviet ones are worth trying too.


----------



## BlakeT

reg66 said:


> OK, many thanks. Still a bit doubtful of what will turn up as, like you say, the pics show a Reflector but the brand description says Voskhod Plant. Will have to wait and see i guess!



Did the tube ever show up?  Curious if you received the tube that was pictured in the advert or something different.


----------



## reg66

BlakeT said:


> Did the tube ever show up?  Curious if you received the tube that was pictured in the advert or something different.


Yeahh, it showed up fine and dandy.... but it's very microphonic in one channel. Although the images were as advertised, I've got a feeling the seller had had the item returned already for the same issue or something - as soon as I said I needed to return the item due to being microphonic, the seller just refunded me off the bat and said keep the tube!! The microphonics are only noticable if you tap literally anything in th surrounding area, the ringing in one channel is real obvious, but when sat completely still it's not there. So I at least had a brief go with the tube. I say brief because I have amassed a fair collection. As soon as I found the ringing sound, it kind of got left behind. 

You've actually reminded me of the tube, think I'll give it a wee whirl again!! Cheers


----------



## BlakeT

I had a quad of the '75 "grails".  It's a nice tube, just depends on system matching and sonic preferences.  I found it to be very detailed, clear and transparent.  More of a "solid state" squeaky clean sound imho.


----------



## billerb1

Since I moved to the Telefunken G73R's, my former #1 Telefunken ECC801S's (matched pair) are now available in the Classifieds.  Great deal.
PM me.


----------



## MooMilk

My testing standard for tubes is the behavior in a microphone circuit, so far most stable among the ECC88 series are the older Reflector tubes up until 75', while with most samples of Amperex \ Telefunken \ Valvo - I'm getting higher noise floor and random noises - this is due to lower input resistance and current leaks,

If shameless plugs are allowed here 
 Got a matched pair of NOS Reflector 6N23P 75' SWGP Silver shields - tested strong and noise free - open to reasonable offers


----------



## Grunt66

I recently bought my first tube amp (Schiit Folkvangr) several months ago. I have been reading about the 6922, 7308, and 6DJ8 tubes that are installed in the Schiit. One tube I keep coming back to is the Tesla Cross Swords blue tip built in factory 32. Recently I came across a red tip variant of the Tesla with Cross Swords. I am looking for a warm tube and not that sounds like a solid state amp. Will the Tesla blue tip provide a warm sound? Thanks in advance.


----------



## K3cT

Grunt66 said:


> I recently bought my first tube amp (Schiit Folkvangr) several months ago. I have been reading about the 6922, 7308, and 6DJ8 tubes that are installed in the Schiit. One tube I keep coming back to is the Tesla Cross Swords blue tip built in factory 32. Recently I came across a red tip variant of the Tesla with Cross Swords. I am looking for a warm tube and not that sounds like a solid state amp. Will the Tesla blue tip provide a warm sound? Thanks in advance.



If you seek a warmer sound then Amperex, Mullard, Philips Holland are all safe bets I think. 

I think none of my Eastern European tubes have a “warm” sound. Voskhod, Reflektor and Tesla are all more SS-ish.


----------



## Grunt66 (Nov 3, 2022)

K3cT said:


> If you seek a warmer sound then Amperex, Mullard, Philips Holland are all safe bets I think.
> 
> I think none of my Eastern European tubes have a “warm” sound. Voskhod, Reflektor and Tesla are all more SS-ish.


Thanks for the input. I recently changed out the stock tubes which were two different brands due to a static noise when turning the volume knob, it could only be heard when no music was playing. I installed some Amperex 6DJ8 / ECC88 that I purchased on Ebay for $42 for the pair. The static noise is no longer present and I have about 20 hours on these tubes. Any thought on these tubes?


----------



## K3cT

That looks like late 60s / early 70s A frame construction type, I confess I haven't heard that type before but you can read some info about it here: https://www.audioasylum.com/audio/faq/joes-tubes.html#6DJ8


----------



## jonathan c

Grunt66 said:


> Thanks for the input. I recently changed out the stock tubes which were two different brands due to a static noise when turning the volume knob, it could only be heard when no music was playing. I installed some Amperex 6DJ8 / ECC88 that I purchased on Ebay for $42 for the pair. The static noise is no longer present and I have about 20 hours on these tubes. Any thought on these tubes?


Those are quite nice. I have ‘rolled’ them in Liquid Platinum, Woo WA2, Woo WA3.


----------



## BlakeT

jonathan c said:


> Those are quite nice.



Agreed, I rolled some in the past and recalled liking them, but Amperex is my definitely my preferred tube for this type so I like the Amperex house sound.


----------



## highstream

Having recently picked up a VAC preamp that takes the 6DJ8 and 12 DJ8 families of tubes, I was pointed to this thread, which has been very helpful in getting started (and maybe ended, having picked pairs of Philips Holland and Reflektor 6N23P 1975 tubes).. One question I’ve had for reference, Was the evaluation of tubes done entirely with headphones or were loudspeakers involved too? The latter seem to be mentioned in the system presentation, but the write-ups for the tubes only refer to headphones. Thanks,


----------



## K3cT

Came across these interesting E88CC tubes. Labelled as AEG but construction is clearly of the Telefunken... diamond stamp at the bottom and 45 degree slanted getter post. I couldn't find any date mark unfortunately.


----------



## keithc

Woohoo!! Out went the JJ 6922s, in went a pair of ....


----------



## MikeO3

How does everyone store their tubes? I have cigar boxes and others  with a bunch of tubes in foam, box, bubble wrap, pairs in elastic bands, etc... What a mess. When I was a kid there were large square compartment type on the tube testing machines. I can't seem to find anything suitable and was wondering what others where doing.

Thanks.


----------



## GaryP

MikeO3 said:


> How does everyone store their tubes? I have cigar boxes and others  with a bunch of tubes in foam, box, bubble wrap, pairs in elastic bands, etc... What a mess. When I was a kid there were large square compartment type on the tube testing machines. I can't seem to find anything suitable and was wondering what others where doing.
> 
> Thanks.


I use tea wooden box


----------



## CAJames

MikeO3 said:


> How does everyone store their tubes? I have cigar boxes and others  with a bunch of tubes in foam, box, bubble wrap, pairs in elastic bands, etc... What a mess. When I was a kid there were large square compartment type on the tube testing machines. I can't seem to find anything suitable and was wondering what others where doing.
> 
> Thanks.



I say store your tubes like a pro:


----------



## highstream

What tubes have people found offers a bit of warmth, without becoming romantic or the classical tube sound? The 1975 Reflektor Silver Shields I have are not cool but unfortunately not warm either. I’m using them in a preamp known for being a bit on the warm side.


----------



## K3cT

highstream said:


> What tubes have people found offers a bit of warmth, without becoming romantic or the classical tube sound? The 1975 Reflektor Silver Shields I have are not cool but unfortunately not warm either. I’m using them in a preamp known for being a bit on the warm side.



Philips Holland or Amperex should be a good start.


----------



## jonathan c

highstream said:


> What tubes have people found offers a bit of warmth, without becoming romantic or the classical tube sound? The 1975 Reflektor Silver Shields I have are not cool but unfortunately not warm either. I’m using them in a preamp known for being a bit on the warm side.


Sylvania 6922, Sylvania 7308, Philips BEL ECC88…


----------



## highstream (Saturday at 12:14 PM)

K3cT said:


> Philips Holland or Amperex should be a good start.


Thanks. I’ve got a pair of Philips Holland Miniwatt E88CC that are very good but sometimes feel too warm. Trying to find something in between them and the 6N23P, while getting as close as possible to the latter in other respects. The original review mentions the Telefunken as an option, but someone wants $650 for a pair of those, three times what I paid for the others.


----------



## BlakeT

highstream said:


> What tubes have people found offers a bit of warmth, without becoming romantic or the classical tube sound? The 1975 Reflektor Silver Shields I have are not cool but unfortunately not warm either. I’m using them in a preamp known for being a bit on the warm side.



Amperex 6922 PQ (white label) USA.


----------



## highstream

BlakeT said:


> Amperex 6922 PQ (white label) USA.



Thanks. They come dear.


----------



## BlakeT (Saturday at 4:01 PM)

Unfortunately, the PQ's are expensive.

Another cheaper but still very good option:  *Amperex Orange Globe 6DJ8/ECC88 Holland*

From the other thread, you mentioned you prefer a bit of warmth as opposed to pure neutrality, so I think you might prefer the Orange Globes to your '75 Reflektors.


----------



## highstream (Saturday at 4:15 PM)

BlakeT said:


> Unfortunately, the PQ's are expensive.
> 
> Another cheaper but still very good option:  *Amperex Orange Globe 6DJ8/ECC88 Holland*
> 
> From the other thread, you mentioned you prefer a bit of warmth as opposed to pure neutrality, so I think you might prefer the Orange Globes to your '75 Reflektors.



Orange Globe = orange globe on tube. Years preferred?


----------



## BlakeT

Correct, orange globe on the tube.  My pair is 60's vintage.


----------



## K3cT (Sunday at 12:28 AM)

highstream said:


> Thanks. I’ve got a pair of Philips Holland Miniwatt E88CC that are very good but sometimes feel too warm. Trying to find something in between them and the 6N23P, while getting as close as possible to the latter in other respects. The original review mentions the Telefunken as an option, but someone wants $650 for a pair of those, three times what I paid for the others.



$650 seems excessive. I lucked out on the Telefunken AEG and while they’re pretty good I don’t think they’re worth that much. These don’t have the top end openness and clarity of the better 6N23P but seem more balanced from top to bottom.


----------



## highstream (Sunday at 2:32 AM)

BlakeT said:


> Correct, orange globe on the tube.  My pair is 60's vintage.



Just picked up an NOS-like testing pair of 1968 Orange Globes for a reasonable price. Be fun to hear what they have to offer.

Btw, is there any relationship between these and the Philips Holland Miniwatt E88CC of the same period?


----------

