# My Two Cents:  It is NOT okay to cross signals in a cable...



## Rick

I'm making this thread because it had come to my attention that not only forum members, but also "professional" cable makers think that it is okay to not only cross signals in a cable, but actually braid 2 seperate signals together.

 Let me first start off by saying that you should never under any circumstances even cross 2 cables from eachother due to the crosstalk that will take place from the seperate signals. that being said, it is a definite "no no" to ever braid 2 different signals into a litz braid. The idea behind a litz braid is that you have multiple wires of the "same" signal, and the same multiple of negative signal (or ground signal) wires braided together in uniform. This technique of the braid creating a shield around itself ONLY works when done in that fasion, otherwise its just a breeding grounds for crosstalk and interference. 

 I honestly cannot understand how people can be selling these 3 wire litz braided cables (2 signal 1 ground) for 350$ and people are actually buying them? I know my customers are VERY pleased to receive an 8 wire cable from me (2, 4 wire litz braided cables, joined together in parallel with sleeving and shrink tube).


 *Advertisement removed*


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## Ub3rMario

Pretty sure you can't advertise here for free, especially while bashing other cable makers who pay to advertise here....


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## Uncle Erik

Do you mind putting up some facts and figures to support your assertion?


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## Budgie

You are completely wrong and need to learn more about magnetic coupling between conductors. 

 Also try to learn what a "Litz wire" actually is. 

 Then come on back and we can talk, but leave the low ball attempt at advertising out.


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## Rick

Well you could start by reading the actual official litz website for starters. Specifically the faq section where he specifically states that you should never cross 2 signals. And how he highly advises agains have more than one signal in the same litz braid. Or maybe how his tutorial is using 4 wires for 1 rca cable?


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## Rick

And budgie, your "loser" commend that you edited out was completely uncalled for, and just goes to show how competent your opinion really is. If you bother to read the litz website, or any website that has actual facts to do with signals and crosstalk / emi, you would retract your entire comment.


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## les_garten

Hello,
 I kinda have some of the same questions about the "Litz" braiding popular here. I talked to the guy who owns the Chimera Labs website about the very concerns that the OP brings up.

 Here is the same question posed on the Chimera website:

  Quote:


 *Have you tried a multi-strand Litz which is left-right channel separated just at the ends so you have what looks like a single Litz connector carrying two channels. Downside / upside to doing so?*

 I do not have any personal experience in combining channels into one Litz braid. My instinctive response is why would we want to interleave two different signals?.....sounds like a recipe for cross talk. But, the only way to learn is to build a pair and compare them to a pair braided the way I suggest. 
 

Here's the link to the page:

Chimera Labs Frequently Asked Questions

 It seems that if you have 4 wires and they are Left and Right Pairs from a Headphone cable, that as you braid the cable, your pairs are separating and pairing and intermingling with the other channel pair that is moving in and out of pairing. 

 How does this not produce a big Muddy Mess of a Signal?

 This should be an interesting discussion.


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## sachu

without going into bashing the OP for starting a valid thread on a wiring pattern, lets all try to stick to the topic. I don't think the OP is trying to bash any manufacturers here...let alone selling /hawking his wares..interesting toppic though.

 Fsma, are you saying that the star quad mini cable that I am using for my headphone cables are not what I should be using since the left and right channel pair of wires are intervleaved among themselves?


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## Rick

I would like to apologize if anyone got the impression that I was trying to create an advertisement thread or was bashing any manufacturers. I merely was attempting to inform people who spend good amounts of money on cables that they should be spending that money on ones that are going to be benefitting them the best possible way. I did not mean for it come out as an advertisement, merely trying to be helpful here.

 Sachu: that would depend, I have not had a star quad cable to look at its finer aspects, but if the wires are interweaving throughout the cable, and you aren't using it as a single RCA cable, then yes I'd say you would benefit from looking into other options. If they are not interweaving or twisted around eachother, and infact have some sort of di-electric between the cables (like what you'd find inside of say a monster mini-stereo cable, which has a rubber interior seperating each wire), then it is absolutely fine. Is this an interconnect or a headphone cable?

 The idea behind the litz cable is the way it is constructed causes it to form an EMI shielding around itself in the sense that there are equal amounts of signal and negative signal wires interweaving with one another, and then joined at the connectors (last 2 inches of each braid you should switch to just weaving or twisting together the same signal wires for better connectivity). It is my understanding that in doing this you also reduce what little resistance the cable has as well, making it similar to using a thicker guage wire, while maintaining the non-stiffness of the thinner gauge, as well as the frequency range that it has to offer.

 It also means that 2 braids ran in parallel to one another need no further shielding between the two, especially if each braided wire is braided with the exact same amounts of braids, at the same tightnes/looseness.

 That is the type of cable that I think people should be looking for / aspiring for. As a litz cable that is not made this way, loses the natural shielding that it creates for itself, so not only are you crossing signals, but you would be doing so with no actual shielding.


 And thank you les_garten, that is one of the faq questions you quoted that I was referring to.


 Sachu: and not only does this type of cable work for balanced and unbalanced setups, but it makes itself plausable to be intermittently interchangable between the two merely by changing the connector(s). So should one decide to go balanced, they don't need all new expensive cables, they simply change the connectors and seperate the ground wires from eachother and now have their negative signal wires.


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## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sachu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_without going into bashing the OP for starting a valid thread on a wiring pattern, lets all try to stick to the topic. I don't think the OP is trying to bash any manufacturers here...let alone selling /hawking his wares..interesting toppic though.

 Fsma, are you saying that the star quad mini cable that I am using for my headphone cables are not what I should be using since the left and right channel pair of wires are intervleaved among themselves?_

 

Yes, Star Quad has the same problem. It was designed to be a MIC cable correct? When Canare makes a "Multi Channel" Star Quad, they insulate the channels with Braided Copper Shield that I have seen. 

 They do make a Double Star Quad. I think I would like to try that for a Headphone cable.

 What are your thoghts?

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## sachu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fsma* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 Sachu: that would depend, I have not had a star quad cable to look at its finer aspects, but if the wires are interweaving throughout the cable, and you aren't using it as a single RCA cable, then yes I'd say you would benefit from looking into other options. If they are not interweaving or twisted around eachother, and infact have some sort of di-electric between the cables (like what you'd find inside of say a monster mini-stereo cable, which has a rubber interior seperating each wire), then it is absolutely fine. Is this an interconnect or a headphone cable?_

 

fsma,

 I have used this for both RCA and headphone cables.

 WIth RCA, I have sed seperate lengths of cable per channel which eliminates the problem altogether. But with the headphone cable i guess, there is crosstalk involved as the two pairs are not shielded from each other. Maybe I should look into the cable that les_gardens is suggesting..something that has sheilding between the pairs as well as full sheilding.
  Quote:


 Sachu: and not only does this type of cable work for balanced and unbalanced setups, but it makes itself plausable to be intermittently interchangable between the two merely by changing the connector(s). So should one decide to go balanced, they don't need all new expensive cables, they simply change the connectors and seperate the ground wires from eachother and now have their negative signal wires. 
 


 yeah, but going balanced is a pain and not really all that beneficial me thinks..


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## Rick

Everyone has their views on balanced. I haven't got a balanced setup myself, but I know a large part of switching to balanced for some people is spending 1000$ on cables all over again. (or somewhere in that ballpark)

 If you have starquad as a headphone cable, this is not to say you should throw it out and buy a new cable. What I would personally do is strip the outer jacket off so that you are left with the 4 wires. Then purchase another length of starquad the same length and do the same. then either braid the 2 sets of 4 wires and put sleeving over them placing the 2 braided cables in parallel to eachother, or if you aren't comfortable doing it yourself, there are plenty of places/people to turn to who would be happy to do it for you with your wiring at a much lower cost than purchasing a new cable all together.

 I personally have a 10 foot headphone cable at the moment that I constructed. solid copper (as stranded defeats the purpose of braiding the wires, and its only benefit as far as I've read would be that it is more bendable/less stiff), that consists of exactly as I have described, two seperately braided 4 wire cables (not sleeved at the moment as I am waiting on that shipment of sleeving to arrive, so its merely held together by a small piece of heat shrink tubing every foot or so until that arrives), and so far the only thing to cause any interference with it is my cell phone going off, but I'm quite sure that even that is solely due to the open exposed wire / contacts on my headphone drivers, as I have a MESS of cables (mostly electrical and USB) flopped on the ground beside me tangled to all hell and back again, and it has no effect on the sound that I can tell even if I place my headphone cable flat across the heaping pile, or even if I run it directly ontop of the power supply for my computer tower. Aswell I've yet to hear any other form of cable that sounds as crisp and clear as this kind, which I believe to be because of the fact that the cable is designed in a way that the signal travels as though it were balanced, and also because left channel, right channel, and ground channels are all in exact precise formation that the signals travel through them at the exact same phases.


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## Rick

And hence why I felt the need to share this information, as it did not seem that it was well known, or even accepted amongst the community (given the initial responses that I aquired), when it really is beneficial. 

 It does take more wiring to produce the cable though naturally. I used nearly 90 ft of wire for a 10 ft cable. But the difference is very much worth it in my opinion and I think not only should the listeners be concidering this as an option, but I would love to see manufacturers offer it more readily as well.


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## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sachu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_fsma,

 I have used this for both RCA and headphone cables.

 WIth RCA, I have sed seperate lengths of cable per channel which eliminates the problem altogether. But with the headphone cable i guess, there is crosstalk involved as the two pairs are not shielded from each other. Maybe I should look into the cable that les_gardens is suggesting..something that has sheilding between the pairs as well as full sheilding.



 yeah, but going balanced is a pain and not really all that beneficial me thinks.._

 



 Hi,

 Mogami W2930 is a 2-Ch Snake.
MOGAMI - The Cable of the PROS

 The problem is it is about 1mm too large in Diameter. We need it to be around 6.5mm or 0.25" Max in my opinion.

 I just sent in a request for a sample. The Canare 2-Ch. Star Quad is bigger .

 Canare L-4E3-2P
http://www.canare.com/ProductItemDis...oductItemID=55

 We need a custom 2-Ch Mini Star quad at 6.5mm!


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## Rick

thinner would be less shielding on those. hence why litz cable is convenient in my opinion since it shields itself. each channel winds up being 1/8 inch, making the entire cable 1/4 inch (0.25") vs the half inch that the custom 2-ch mini star quad would wind up being.


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## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fsma* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_thinner would be less shielding on those. hence why litz cable is convenient in my opinion since it shields itself. each channel winds up being 1/8 inch, making the entire cable 1/4 inch (0.25") vs the half inch that the custom 2-ch mini star quad would wind up being._

 


 The Canare is .350" and is Dual star quad. It would be awesome if it was just a little smaller.


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## Budgie

Yes I edited out the loser comment because _I_ decided it was uncalled for.

 As to me- 30 years of experience sending analog signals through long runs (1000's of feet) of cable might have something to do with my knowledge. Of course, I am not trying to sell anything, so maybe that invalidates my experience.

 edit- and what official litz website do you refer to?
 I will happily read any link you provide.


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## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Budgie* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes I edited out the loser comment because I decided it was uncalled for.

 As to me- 30 years of experience sending analog signals through long runs (1000's of feet) of cable might have something to do with my knowledge. Of course, I am not trying to sell anything, so maybe that invalidates my experience._

 

You've been doing a Litz braid for 30 years? You don't understand the OP's point? You think the guy's statement on the Chimera(The Owner) website is Pointless and wrong?

 The Star Quad is a single channel Mic cable. When they make the stereo mic cables they separate the Channels and shield them. The "Nice" audio snake cables are separated channels and shielded.

 Then all that engineering is suspended when we talk about Headphone Cables?? I think a 2 Channel Mini Star Quad would seem the way to go. I've been rattin' cables for a number of decades myself, and i see the point here. Some of the Custom made aftermarket cables may be made this way. I don't know them all. I can tell you this though. I'm about to have a lot of Jena Ultra for sale.

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## Rick

A link and quote was provided few posts back. And clearly if you have been cabling for 30 years you would have learnt within the first few days why you should not cross signals, let alone braid them together. 

 You don't have to sell your jena ultra, you can salvage it, I would happily braid what you have into seperate channel cables and sleeve them free of charge. Just it will take twice the amount of wiring than normal. ie. You'd need 22 ft of quad wire cable for me to make a 10 ft one. But its better than getting rid of it all together.


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## Budgie

Litz wire is a very specific type of wire. Has nothing to do with braiding. Do a web search for it. 

 Crossing left and right wires in a single cable will actually reduce crosstalk, compared to parallel configurations. It reduces loop area, which reduces noise pickup. Feel free to do a bit of research.

 Oh and thank you for the offer, but I make my own cables.

 edit- I'm tired of this thread. The facts are out there available with a simple web search. Bye.


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## Rick

one: we are not talking about litz wire, we are talking about litz cabling which is a form of braiding wires of equal amounts of signal and neutral.

 2: crossing signals INCREASES crosstalk that is a well known fact. crossing signal and neutral wires in a single cable reduces crosstalk, not cross 2 seperate signals.

 3: that offer was to les_garten, the one who mentions the jena ultras, not at all to you whom I would never concider doing such a favor for, thank you.


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## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Budgie* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Litz wire is a very specific type of wire. Has nothing to do with braiding. Do a web search for it. 

 Crossing left and right wires in a single cable will actually reduce crosstalk, compared to parallel configurations. It reduces loop area, which reduces noise pickup. Feel free to do a bit of research.

 Oh and thank you for the offer, but I make my own cables.

 edit- I'm tired of this thread. The facts are out there available with a simple web search. Bye._

 


 There's no easy way to put this other than you don't know what you are talking about. 

 Additionally, nobody said anything about Litz wire. The term was Litz Braid. Litz wire does not cross channels either.

 Show us where it is okay to intermingle Channels? The Litz Braid site uses L and R to denote where the wires start(Left side and Right side), not Stereo channels. Do you understand the significance of that statement? Most don't get that at all. That's where the problems come from. I looked at all the Canare and Mogami wires, they don't Interleave their Channels, they are separate.

 I've posted links. What have you posted? This is a discussion, discuss. Backup why you say what you say. I did.

 All due respect, you call someone a name, and then can't back up your statements?

 I'll BET YOU, I can Call Canare or Mogami and propose running Stereo down their Star Quad and they'll say get ready for Crosstalk. I'll work on that. They are going to say that their design is a MONO MIC cable.


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## sachu

ok..if you disagree about something try not to come off as a twit by sounding like the all knowing...
 We are all heere to learn and discuss views.

 It makes sense that crossing of the 2 channel wires is going to induce crosstalk and as fsma points out clearly, braiding of the signal against the ground wire has some benefits. 

 THe problem is when you cross the two channels..


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## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fsma* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_one: we are not talking about litz wire, we are talking about litz cabling which is a form of braiding wires of equal amounts of signal and neutral.

 2: crossing signals INCREASES crosstalk that is a well known fact. crossing signal and neutral wires in a single cable reduces crosstalk, not cross 2 seperate signals.

 3: that offer was to les_garten, the one who mentions the jena ultras, not at all to you whom I would never concider doing such a favor for, thank you._

 

I'm probably going to sell it. I really want a 2-Ch Start Quad shielded. I think that would be a hell of a cable. I have no confidence in the Jena Ultra now, and I have a lot of it, and can recoup some cash. I have a full 6' Braided cable with 1/4" Furutech and 50' Bulk. I also have a bunch of Cardas 4x24 and Mogami 2534 I don't really want either.

 It would be great if we could get a bulk of cable made up by Mogami that would do Dual Star Quad in .24"/6.5mm form Factor.

 That Jena is sure Pretty on my JVC DX1000's!!


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## Kabeer

Hi Les,

 If you remember you pm'd me about the Litz braid as well a while back (and thanks for your dignified conversation 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





)

 So you have come to the conclusion that braided wires have the problems you mentioned?

 If so then this would mean a big shake up for aftermarket cable manufacturers.


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## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Kabeer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi Les,

 If you remember you pm'd me about the Litz braid as well a while back (and thanks for your dignified conversation 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)

 So you have come to the conclusion that braided wires have the problems you mentioned?

 If so then this would mean a big shake up for aftermarket cable manufacturers._

 

Hi Kabeer,
 You have a nice cable there, it just got me thinking about what is going on with the cable Geometry. Because of the Coloration of the cable you used, it was easy to see how the cable runs, and that got me thinking. 

 The problem has been solved by the big cable guys like Mogami and Canare. hey don't make Cables like the ones we are using. I am going to try and talk to them about this and the possibility of making a custom cable. The problem is we would probably have to do 5,000 feet of cable to get one.

 If you look for a Stereo MIC cable, the Channels with be separated and shielded. All the audio Snake cables are separated and shielded. The issue is that the Dual Star Quad is a little to large in diameter for headphone cables.

 When I saw your cable I called the guy at the Chimera website. He braids big cables. Like 16 strand speaker cables. So he'll have 8 positives and 8 negatives. When he lays them out to braid, he calls them Left and Right. This doesn't mean Channel, it means what side of the center the wire starts out on.

 Carry this to it's logical conclusion. It you had a 7.1 speaker system, would it be right to braid all 8 channels together? There are "Litz Braid" patterns published that go to many strands, like for speaker cables. But you don't braid your L and R Channels together.

 Believe me I would love to here a competent rebuttal. I have about $500 worth of raw cable I'm looking at that is making me sick to my stomach! The most sickening thing is that the cable we need does not exist? Unless some of the Proprietary cables are constructed this way. I think a nice 2-Ch Star Quad with good SPOFC would be THE KILLER CABLE. My plan is to get the 2-ch star quad for my Senn 650's It's easy to do them because of the Plugs. I'll see how that sounds up against the Cardas and the stock cable. Maybe pass the cable around for evaluation against the Boutique cables out these.

 You are right, this calls for a discussion of how these Boutique manufacturers are making their cables. 

 Hopefully some folks out there will join in and hash this out a little.

 This seems to be a no brainer to me. Which means maybe I am missing something and am all wet!

 The "basic" premise is this:

 It is bad to intermingle and interleave stereo Channels as they progress down a cable.


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## les_garten

Here's a PIC of the Canare L-4E3-2P. It would be awesome if it were .25-.30" instead of .35"







 Looks like a Deep-Sea Monster in this PIC!


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## Rick

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Kabeer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi Les,

 If you remember you pm'd me about the Litz braid as well a while back (and thanks for your dignified conversation 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)

 So you have come to the conclusion that braided wires have the problems you mentioned?

 If so then this would mean a big shake up for aftermarket cable manufacturers._

 

Yes and no. Properly braided cables do not have the issues mentioned. two four wire litz braided cables running parallel held together with sleeving has outstanding performance and very good EMI rejection / does not have any crosstalk issues. However the fore mentioned braided cables that have both channels braided together in one single four wire cable do have those issues. Canare or mogami stereo cables are one option. The other option is merely braiding / making the braided cables properly as they were intended to be made. 

 Yes this does pose serious issues for aftermarket cable manufacturers, and it also questions their integrity on their knowledge of making cables as they claim that their 3 and 4 wire litz braided stereo cables have EMI shielding when they don't, as well as introducing crosstalk with no shielding present.


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## MASantos

Dude, can you show us some measurements that show increased crosstalk when braiding two signals together? 



 Chimera Labs is not the official website for litz braids or wire.

 These braids have been used by women in their hairs for centuries, and litz wire(yes, I know that we're not discussing it here) was developed quite a few decades ago, long before websites...


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## olblueyez

Does that mean this is a bad way to build a cable?


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## Peyotero

Heh fsma be carefull shouting "THE KING IS NAKED!!" here. You might get stoned.

 My first most enthusiastic hp recable atempt was also probaly the most silly one. I had good intentions though 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I just thought- "if John Grado can make a cable with 8 conductors, why can't I?" I emidiatly grabed some cat5 cable and stripped it down. Braided the 4 twised in pairs wires in "litz braid" then did the normal litz braid after the y split.. yeah. I doubt that's what Grado had in mind. 

 Then decided to try better quality cables so I ordered some SPC. While waiting for the order I've done some googling on Litz braiding and its benifits, to be prepared for some l33t recabling work. Stumbled on some thread here in head-fi in the "for sale forum" where a guy commented on a wire some dude were trying to sell, basically telling him that crossing two signals is silly.. So I ran back to the source. The place that has inspired 90% of the DIY custom cables around here and probably good slice of the after market cables, also. And there he is, clearly saying that crossing signals is to silly to even think about. And he makes perfect too, since all of the mic proffesional mic cables I've seen run their signals in paralel (cardas, mogami, canare and whatever). 

 Your thread poses a problem. Lets say I'm a fresh fish and I just finished an awesome looking cable "head-fi way" (aka blantly wrong). Everybody's doing it so it must be the proper way. So I'm selling it to some other guy now. Am I a scammer? No. I'm just ignorat. Just like the the guy who's buying it. But with a thread like this... 100% scam. Unless of course I clearly state that this cable is just for bling bling since the config is plain wrong.

 Haha man you won't even get flamed in here (not counting that guy who called you a loser and instantly made a fool out of himself). It's to embarassing.
 Do you even realise how bad this is? How the hell am I gonna stuff 8 conductors with some fancy techflex + heatshrink into that tiny Neutrik plug while maintaining the signal pass paralel?? 

 person.


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## les_garten

Hi,
 I've talked to Mogami and Canare. Both told me they don't run signals like we do. I was hoping that they would make a small run of Dual Star quad. Like 10,000 feet. Canare just flat doesn't do custom cable according to the people I talked to. Never got a straight answer from Mogami yet. Mogami has a Nice Stereo Mic cable, it's got steel in it to hang Mics from the ceiling.

 I've got a nice Dual Star quad, and I can get it in a Furutech. It "should" be the Ultimate cable. I'd take good engineereing over Boutique BS any day of the week. I'm going to make a Senn 650 Cable first because it will be the easiest to get opinions on. The cable I have is big, but very flexible and soft jacket on the outside. 

 I sold a spool of Jena Ultra Cryo. I'm over the Litz BS.

 Audiophiles are the biggest bunch of Magpies I've ever seen.

 A previous poster said, where are your measurments?

 I don't need a pectrum analyzer to know the Sky is Blue, other people have proven that.

 I don't need to sail to the Horizon to know the world is round, others have proven that.

 I don't need to shoot anybody to prove my gun is dangerous. Others have already done that.

 I don't have to build a lab to understand that Interleaving Stereo Channels is a bad thing, _*OTHERS HAVE ALREADY DONE THAT*_

 This is Galactically Obvious.

 .


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## J.D.N

I don't claim to know one way or another, but i do have a couple of questions if someone wouldn't mind trying to answer them. 

 Does it matter what 'level' the signal being transmitted is? Whether there will be less crosstalk with a line level signal, than with an amplified signal? Is there any evidence that crosstalk becomes negligible at a certain signal level? 

 If, as some do here, people use starquad cable for iPod LODs, then by using e.g. the two white wires as ground and the two blue for each channel, would the issue of crosstalk be negated due to the configuration of the wire? 

 I hope people understand these, if not ill try to explain better.


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## Peyotero

The cross talk issue applies when ppl braid their own wires incorectly. If you use a complete mic cable (aka not stripped down and braided into one cable) then crosstalk is not an issue since the proffesional cables are twisted and the two signal wires are not crossing each other.

 I don't know about signal strenth and I'm not sure I fully unerstand the question but from what I've gathered, crosstalk is a real issue in high speed network cables and there's quiet a research going on on how to configure them properly. I don't know how this applies to audio and if this is even a concern with portable audio and headphone cables but why do something knowing that there's a chance you'll degrade the performance. What is more redicilous is paying 300$+ for a cable that is fundamentally flawed.
 Unless it's for bling bling of course.


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## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Peyotero* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The cross talk issue applies when ppl braid their own wires incorectly. If you use a complete mic cable (aka not stripped down and braided into one cable) then crosstalk is not an issue since the proffesional cables are twisted and the two signal wires are not crossing each other.

 I don't know about signal strenth and I'm not sure I fully unerstand the question but from what I've gathered, crosstalk is a real issue in high speed network cables and there's quiet a research going on on how to configure them properly. I don't know how this applies to audio and if this is even a concern with portable audio and headphone cables but why do something knowing that there's a chance you'll degrade the performance. What is more redicilous is paying 300$+ for a cable that is fundamentally flawed.
 Unless it's for bling bling of course._

 

Ahhh ya missed one point. A Mic cable is Mono. If you talk to Canare, they'll tell you real quick it's not made for stereo signals. You need to use a stereo mic cable, which is basically a *Dual* Star quad. Taking a star quad and sing it to run two channels in, is a screwup. When "Pros" run channels, they do it with snake cables and all the channels are shielded and quaded in the cable, if you're dealing with top quality snake cables. All this info is available to Mogami and Canare's site.

 We need a .25-.30" OD Dual Star Quad. The Company that gets that custom cable done will have something worth looking at. Soon as my CoCobolo Cups get here for my Grado Mods, I'll build a cable up and post it here. Need to do my Senn cable too.

 The signal is low level with headphones. This makes them more susceptable to problems. 

 I'll use the cable companies stuff here. If you need to pay from $250-$1400 on a headphone cable, then can't it just have basic signal engineering backing up the design? If it's worth that much $$$ to sink into your cable, can't we just have a little Electrical Engineering to go with that please? You can learn a lot from reading Canare's site and Mogami's. Look at their STEREO Cables, or cables made for Multiple Channels.. Not MONO Mic cables. Look at a STEREO mic cable.

 It's pretty simple, THEY DON'T MAKE MULTIPLE CHANNEL CABLES THAT THE SIGNALS AND GROUNDS ARE ALL MIXED TOGETHER WITH NO SHIELDING. These guys are BROADCAST level Engineers. Think about the BS we use, and then go into a Multi Million dollar TV studio, Radio Station, Post production Studio, etc. None of these guys count how many 9's are in his Copper. These guys know about EMI, RFI, ground loops, shielding, etc.

 .


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## Peyotero

Good to know.
 What's wrong this ones besides they look "stock"?
Redco Audio
Redco Audio


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## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Peyotero* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Good to know.
 What's wrong this ones besides they look "stock"?
Redco Audio
Redco Audio_

 

The first one is "OK", but it wold be nice to see a cross section. It is not a Star Quad, and it is Very large in an Oval kind of way, basically two 9.6mm in it's widest X section. 

 The second is basic Zip cord with no twist to reduce EMI/RFI interference. Not much info there on redco.

 .


----------



## chesebert

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fsma* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm making this thread because it had come to my attention that not only forum members, but also "professional" cable makers think that it is okay to not only cross signals in a cable, but actually braid 2 seperate signals together.

 Let me first start off by saying that you should never under any circumstances even cross 2 cables from eachother due to the crosstalk that will take place from the seperate signals. that being said, it is a definite "no no" to ever braid 2 different signals into a litz braid. The idea behind a litz braid is that you have multiple wires of the "same" signal, and the same multiple of negative signal (or ground signal) wires braided together in uniform. This technique of the braid creating a shield around itself ONLY works when done in that fasion, otherwise its just a breeding grounds for crosstalk and interference. 

 I honestly cannot understand how people can be selling these 3 wire litz braided cables (2 signal 1 ground) for 350$ and people are actually buying them? I know my customers are VERY pleased to receive an 8 wire cable from me (2, 4 wire litz braided cables, joined together in parallel with sleeving and shrink tube).


 *Advertisement removed*_

 

emag vector field cancel each other out in simple twisted pair, I assume the more litz braiding is used to further reduce the emag field when it's almost impossible to do a perfect regular twisted pair in real life.

 the whole point of using simple twisted pair is so that the cross talk can be eliminated in a perfect world when running 2 *different* signals through them as compared to running them side by side; you can get fancy with twisting what not as perfect twisted pair only happens in emag models.

 I thought this was common knowledge? (use the right hand rule 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ...ahh..brings back memories


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## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *chesebert* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_horizontal and vertical emag field cancel each other out in simple twisted pair, I assume the more litz braiding is used to further reduce the emag field when it's almost impossible to do a perfect regular twisted pair in real life.

 the whole point of using simple twisted pair is so that the cross talk can be eliminated in a perfect world when running 2 *different* signals through them; you can get fancy with twisting what not as perfect twisted pair only happens in emag models._

 

You might want to clean up your thought here, I got no clue what you're saying!

 .


----------



## chesebert

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You might want to clean up your thought here, I got no clue what you're saying!

 ._

 

ok...so I don't remember much of emag...but I know that the problem ends with my summing all those vectors together and get 0 (cancels each other out)

 so twisted pair eliminates any induced voltage caused by the emag field, at least in calculation


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *chesebert* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ok...so I don't remember much of emag...but I know that the problem ends with my summing all those vectors together and get 0 (cancels each other out)

 so twisted pair eliminates any induced voltage caused by the emag field, at least in calculation_

 

That so called Litz braid is not twisted pair.

 The Signals and Grounds are all over the place.

 Twisted pair is just the Signal and the ground, not two signals twisted around each other, then untwisting, then a signal twisting around the other channels ground and then untwisting, ad infinitum.


 .


----------



## chesebert

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That so called Litz braid is not twisted pair.

 The Signals and Grounds are all over the place.

 Twisted pair is just the Signal and the ground, not two signals twisted around each other, then untwisting, then a signal twisting around the other channels ground and then untwisting, ad infinitum.


 ._

 

wrong on twisted pair. probably wrong on the litz braid (show me your vectors calculation - pic showing vector using the right hand rule is sufficient)

 didn't you learn this stuff in your emag class?


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *chesebert* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_wrong on twisted pair. probably wrong on the litz braid (show me your vectors calculation - pic showing vector using the right hand rule is sufficient)

 didn't you learn this stuff in your emag class?_

 

I have no clue what Emag is. Feel better honey!


 I do understand a twisted pair and intimacy of the twist. I guess you're going to show me a ton of Broadcast quality wiring jobs where it's JUST Fine to Interleave the signals and grounds? Is that how you do your speaker cable? Do you interleave the signals on yor Tonearm Headshells? This has got to work great everywhere! 

 If you just want to come here and throw some BS out, don't waste your breath unless you can debunk just a few basic ideas here. 

 You are more than welcome to prove how the "LITZ" braiding, and I use that term loosely, is such a great engineering feet. So, go look at Chimera's web page, which everybody uses ot make these $500 cables, and look at Lawton audio where they are being sold in droves, and explain to the unwashed here how these Signals are OK to be braided like that.

 While you're there, read the FAQ at the Chimera page where he answers this question basally saying this would be stupid to blend Stereo Channels.

 Otherwise take that nonsense and start a High End Headphone Cable Company with it, people are gettin' rich doing it!

 .


----------



## chesebert

_Please see_ Magnetic Fields of Twisted-Wire Pairs
 Shenfeld, S. 
 Navy Underwater Sound Laboratory, New London, Conn. 06320;

 Electromagnetic Compatibility, IEEE Transactions on
 Publication Date: Nov. 1969
 Volume: EMC-11, Issue: 4
 On page(s): 164-169


----------



## Peyotero

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The first one is "OK", but it wold be nice to see a cross section. It is not a Star Quad, and it is Very large in an Oval kind of way, basically two 9.6mm in it's widest X section. 

 The second is basic Zip cord with no twist to reduce EMI/RFI interference. Not much info there on redco.

 ._

 

Mann hurry up! I just got some SPC and some Canare L-4E6S and I don't know what to do with it anymore


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *chesebert* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Please see Magnetic Fields of Twisted-Wire Pairs
 Shenfeld, S. 
 Navy Underwater Sound Laboratory, New London, Conn. 06320;

 Electromagnetic Compatibility, IEEE Transactions on
 Publication Date: Nov. 1969
 Volume: EMC-11, Issue: 4
 On page(s): 164-169_

 

I guess you missed the part where that Braid is not twisted pair.

 .


----------



## chesebert

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I guess you missed the part where that Braid is not twisted pair.

 ._

 

that's what equations and models are for....


----------



## null_pointer_us

I keep getting confused while reading this thread, as to what is actually being advocated. Pardon my general ignorance, but what is the technique les_garten and fsma are interested in using, again? i.e. Is there a simple set of instructions or a diagram in case someone (like me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





) wants to make such a stereo headphone cable? I'm new to DIY audio.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *null_pointer_us* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I keep getting confused while reading this thread, as to what is actually being advocated. Pardon my general ignorance, but what is the technique les_garten and fsma are interested in using, again? i.e. Is there a simple set of instructions or a diagram in case someone (like me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) wants to make such a stereo headphone cable? I'm new to DIY audio._

 


 Hi,
 It's really simple and is a mainstay of audio wiring. 

 1) You start with two channels, R and L
 2) These Channels have a ground reference associated with them, the negative lead.
 3) Don't twist R and L with each other
 4) Twist R with it's ground
 5) Twist L with it's ground
 6) Try to keep them separated from each other, AND/OR shielded from each other(Pairs)
 7) Don't twist the R with the L, then untwist and twist with one Ground, then untwist, and twist with L again, then untwist, and twist with the other ground, etc, etc.

 The snag here is the intermixing and the interleaving of the Signal channels.

 Show me speaker cables that blend L and R like this?

 Show me Premaps that don't try to keep the inputs separated from each other and twisted around their ground references. 

 Show me a premap that twists the signals around each other, just one, and I'm not talking about the one your idiot brother made! Production models.

 I'm preparing to build a B22, this is part of the wiring scheme to keep the channels away from each other and twisted around their ground reference. Each channel is twisted around it's own ground reference. 

 R and L are not married together and twisted around each other except in the headphone cable world. Everywhere else it is FORBIDDEN.

 Why in the headphone cable world? Because of convenience. The very nature of the cables that are small enough to do this are basically MONO cables that are being re-purposed by "us".

 But think about it. The big companies making cheap Phones with Cheap cables put Dual cables on them. Why? Because they have engineers on staff telling them not to interleave the signals. Sheesh!

 The whole idea of Hi End audio gear is Dual Mono. Keep your Channels away from each other. The Best Cable would be Dual Balanced config with separate home runs to each driver with good cable and Balanced Dual Mono gear. I'm planning my build now.

 Lots of people Use a Star quad, but it's a mono cable, that's how it was designed. I called the companies. I'm just saying it should be a Dual Star Quad. For some reason that's revolutionary.

 I have a whole team of Engineers backing me up. They're at Canare and Mogami.

 I'm not an EE, but I woke up this morning with a modicum of common sense in my head and money still in my wallet from not buying that $1400 Headphone cable at SAA!


 .


----------



## chesebert

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 The snag here is the intermixing and the interleaving of the Signal channels.

*I don't think you understand what interleaving means*

 Show me speaker cables that blend L and R like this?

*How is that even possible? unless you are putting the speaker right next to each other*

 Show me Premaps that don't try to keep the inputs separated from each other and twisted around their ground references. 

*why would anyone twist all channels together and untwist at the end?? keep the cables-run short is the general goal here *

 Show me a premap that twists the signals around each other, just one, and I'm not talking about the one your idiot brother made! Production models.

*see above*

 I'm preparing to build a B22, this is part of the wiring scheme to keep the channels away from each other and twisted around their ground reference. Each channel is twisted around it's own ground reference. 

*sounds good. make sure you have short/equal distance runs*

 R and L are not married together and twisted around each other except in the headphone cable world. Everywhere else it is FORBIDDEN.

*uh? people do it all the time, try cut open your cat5 cable; you don't want to run two cables side-by-side in close proximity *


 Why in the headphone cable world? Because of convenience. The very nature of the cables that are small enough to do this are basically MONO cables that are being re-purposed by "us".

*your lack of knowledge is beyond reproach*

 But think about it. The big companies making cheap Phones with Cheap cables put Dual cables on them. Why? Because they have engineers on staff telling them not to interleave the signals. Sheesh!

 The whole idea of Hi End audio gear is Dual Mono. Keep your Channels away from each other. The Best Cable would be Dual Balanced config with separate home runs to each driver with good cable and Balanced Dual Mono gear. I'm planning my build now.

*your lack of knowledge is beyond reproach*

 Lots of people Use a Star quad, but it's a mono cable, that's how it was designed. I called the companies. I'm just saying it should be a Dual Star Quad. For some reason that's revolutionary.

 I have a whole team of Engineers backing me up. They're at Canare and Mogami.

 I'm not an EE, but I woke up this morning with a modicum of common sense in my head and money still in my wallet from not buying that $1400 Headphone cable at SAA!
*I figured that out already, which would make your comments on any technical details related to EE irrelevant at this point*

 ._

 

please see *bold*

 wow..this is like asking to prove Ohm's law in the 21centry when someone can just google the damn thing.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *chesebert* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_please see *bold*

 wow..this is like asking to prove Ohm's law in the 21centry when someone can just google the damn thing._

 

It's difficult to answer your non answer.

 I'm not sure what your agenda here is?

 Let's examine your Cat-5 statement.

 Cut it open, you have 4 Signal pairs that are intimately twisted with respect to the Tip/ring of the pair. These 4 pairs are also twisted with a varying rate of twist that tightens and loosens the twist rate as you progress down the wire.

 Ethernet is transmitted on 2 of these pairs. If you look at the ethernrt jack, The transmit pair occupies pins 1 and 2 and the receive pair occupies positions 3 and 6. Positions 1 and 2 are intimately twisted together down the cable as a signal pair. Positions 3 and 6 do the same. These are the orange and green pairs.

 Lets say you had a long cable run connecting two Ethernet switches. You terminated both ends of your cable as Blue-Orange-Green-Brown. A common way to terminate Telco cables back in the day by Ol' Telco guys. So the Blue pair is in Position 1 and 2 the orange pair is in position 3 and 4, the Green pair is in position 5 and 6, and the Brown pair is in position 7 and 8.

 Analyze the Cat 5 data capabilities of that cable run?

 Because This is exactly what I'm been talking about here.

 When we get thru this piece, then we'll do the second question. Lets do one question at a time.


 .


----------



## Peyotero

I didn't understand any word of what chesebert said (maybe I'm not smart enough) but show me one headphone from the 1$ one up to 1000$+ where it mixes both signals and I'll start listening harder.

 The idea of this thread is one of the funniest thing I've seen here yet (besides Patrick of course. no one messes with Patrick!). If crosstalk is of any significance in headphone cables, then _any_ stock hp cable will out perform 90% of the cable "upgrades" here (???).


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Peyotero* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I didn't understand any word of what chesebert said (maybe I'm not smart enough) but show me one headphone from the 1$ one up to 1000$+ where it mixes both signals and I'll start listening harder.

 The idea of this thread is one of the funniest thing I've seen here yet (besides Patrick of course. no one messes with Patrick!). If crosstalk is of any significance in headphone cables, then any stock hp cable will out perform 90% of the cable "upgrades" here (???)._

 

Headphone Cables

 .


----------



## Peyotero

Oh sorry I meant stock cables. Heh don't show me that ^#$# I don't like pink cables that costs more then my car. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 EDIT: oh it seems you have the option to put black nylon sleeve over it only for 8$ a foot (probably cryo treated). I'm selling my car.


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## les_garten

I have a cable off my DX1000, that's an Over $1000 can. I'll look at it later and see if I can expose it without sacrificing it and get some pix.

 Here's one of the most famous, if not the most famous Headphone Cable here. 10' Cable made up in this retails nearly $300 for your Daddies Senn 650s.

 Nice Cable for a MONO cable, we could do a lot better for a stereo cable.

 If this is such a good thing for Stereo, why doesn't everybody just put two RCAs on each end and make a great pair of ICs?

 >>
 >>




 >>
 >>




 >>
 >>





 >>
 >>





 >>
 >>





 >>
 >>


----------



## Rick

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Peyotero* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Heh fsma be carefull shouting "THE KING IS NAKED!!" here. You might get stoned.

 My first most enthusiastic hp recable atempt was also probaly the most silly one. I had good intentions though 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I just thought- "if John Grado can make a cable with 8 conductors, why can't I?" I emidiatly grabed some cat5 cable and stripped it down. Braided the 4 twised in pairs wires in "litz braid" then did the normal litz braid after the y split.. yeah. I doubt that's what Grado had in mind. 

 Then decided to try better quality cables so I ordered some SPC. While waiting for the order I've done some googling on Litz braiding and its benifits, to be prepared for some l33t recabling work. Stumbled on some thread here in head-fi in the "for sale forum" where a guy commented on a wire some dude were trying to sell, basically telling him that crossing two signals is silly.. So I ran back to the source. The place that has inspired 90% of the DIY custom cables around here and probably good slice of the after market cables, also. And there he is, clearly saying that crossing signals is to silly to even think about. And he makes perfect too, since all of the mic proffesional mic cables I've seen run their signals in paralel (cardas, mogami, canare and whatever). 

 Your thread poses a problem. Lets say I'm a fresh fish and I just finished an awesome looking cable "head-fi way" (aka blantly wrong). Everybody's doing it so it must be the proper way. So I'm selling it to some other guy now. Am I a scammer? No. I'm just ignorat. Just like the the guy who's buying it. But with a thread like this... 100% scam. Unless of course I clearly state that this cable is just for bling bling since the config is plain wrong.

 Haha man you won't even get flamed in here (not counting that guy who called you a loser and instantly made a fool out of himself). It's to embarassing.
 Do you even realise how bad this is? How the hell am I gonna stuff 8 conductors with some fancy techflex + heatshrink into that tiny Neutrik plug while maintaining the signal pass paralel?? 

 person._

 

First of all, how am I a scammer? do you see me attempting to sell anything? does it look like anything was done in that other thread that indicated anything other than an attempt to enlighten someone with a mean of selling a cable that did not induce crosstalk?

 second, I dont seem to have trouble fitting heatshrink and (not techflex, that just feels cheap and plastic-like), nylon multifilament and yes it all fits into that tiny neutrik connector, its a magic trick I do, wanna see how?


 Few simple rules for those of us who are wanting to learn:

 1. 8 wires can fit in a tiny neutrik connector
 2. however you are building your cable, unless you can cross signals at a 90 degree angle (or there abouts atleast), if you can't, then dont cross them. plain and simple.
 3. if braiding, braid it as loose as you possibly can. a cable is not alike a woman, you want it loose as a goose, to allow air dielectrics as well as to keep the wires from touching one another as little as possible.
 4. Upon finishing your cable, don't immediately listen to death metal, or R&B/rap and then say that you cannot hear a difference, no duh you can't, thats not hi-fi audio to begin with. put on some classical/jazz or classic rock for that matter.


 if I'm coming off arogant at all I apologize, posts like the one I quote get on my nerves and its 3am so Im tired enough to express it.


----------



## sachu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fsma* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 if I'm coming off arogant at all I apologize, posts like the one I quote get on my nerves and its 3am so Im tired enough to express it._

 

aargh!..you need to get some sleep Ryan..oh wait a minute..so do I...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 btw, will send you a PM regarding this wire stuff..need some info and recommendations


----------



## J.D.N

So would a cable like this be acceptable as both wires are screened from each other?


----------



## Rick

Those are running parallel, not braided, and there's only two wires so I'm not sure how you plan to have 2 channels out of that, but to answer your question, yes that cable is fine.

 Sachu: its Rick, hehe. and yeah I'm hitting the sack now but I'd imagine I'll be up in a few hours so send PM whenever.


----------



## J.D.N

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fsma* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Those are running parallel, not braided, and there's only two wires so I'm not sure how you plan to have 2 channels out of that, but to answer your question, yes that cable is fine._

 


 Well if you were making, say, an iPod LOD, then white would be left, red right, and then the screening would be ground. It obviously depends on what application it is going to be used in. 

 Are you saying that running signals in parallel is ok? I would have thought this would be bad, and also why cables like star quad have been named in the discussion.


----------



## Peyotero

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fsma* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_First of all, how am I a scammer? do you see me attempting to sell anything? does it look like anything was done in that other thread that indicated anything other than an attempt to enlighten someone with a mean of selling a cable that did not induce crosstalk?

 second, I dont seem to have trouble fitting heatshrink and (not techflex, that just feels cheap and plastic-like), nylon multifilament and yes it all fits into that tiny neutrik connector, its a magic trick I do, wanna see how?


 Few simple rules for those of us who are wanting to learn:

 1. 8 wires can fit in a tiny neutrik connector
 2. however you are building your cable, unless you can cross signals at a 90 degree angle (or there abouts atleast), if you can't, then dont cross them. plain and simple.
 3. if braiding, braid it as loose as you possibly can. a cable is not alike a woman, you want it loose as a goose, to allow air dielectrics as well as to keep the wires from touching one another as little as possible.
 4. Upon finishing your cable, don't immediately listen to death metal, or R&B/rap and then say that you cannot hear a difference, no duh you can't, thats not hi-fi audio to begin with. put on some classical/jazz or classic rock for that matter.


 if I'm coming off arogant at all I apologize, posts like the one I quote get on my nerves and its 3am so Im tired enough to express it._

 

So it was 3am and I forgive you 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. You missed my point in that paragraph where you thought I called you a scammer. What why would I? I'm on your side. Please re-read at 8:00/9:00AM after a tasty breakfest
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 My actual point was that if someone is trying to sell/make a wrongly made cable and call it "litz braid", *before this kind of bubble bursting thread* then he is just ignorant because he doesn't know he's doing it wrong (since everybody and his sister makes it same way).

 But now, with a thread like this, where the flaw/blunt mistake was discovered if I'd try to make a cable that way and call it "litz braid" I'd be liying to myself. That's still fine though, ppl do it everyday. But the moment I try to sell it saying "it's litz braided", I'd be a scammer. The guy who invented/suggested this Litz braid made it with a specific configuration for a specific purpose. If I do it completley wrong, it ceases to be "litz braid" and becomes just a "braid".

 But i'm not really flaming _anyone_ (just the way I talk). Its easy to understand how this mistake accured and turned into a fasion. Not to many ppl readed that faq on chimera lab's page. Most folks (meself included) just googled/was reffered by someone else to it for instructions on how to do this particular braid. And on that page he just braids *one of the channels* of RCA. So peeps just picked it up from there and instead of making an 8 conductor stereo cable they've made a stereo cable out of 4 conductor MONO configuration. Relatively simple to do, relatively fast to do and relatively *economical*! So why the hell not? Well why not besides the fact that you're doing it wrong and by trying to get some work-around-shielding get some crosstalk party with it.

 This is also why not to many ppl jumping all over this thread screaming OMG you're right/OMG you're wrong. It's a little embarrasing. Peeps repeated the same mistake years upon years. 

 As for the "neutrik magic" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 yeah I know It can be done, it's just that I never tried to fit two separate 4 conductor braids in there.. Although the plug might be fine, especialy if drilled, but I actually thought heatshrinking the two braids seperatly and entierly so that they won't have any contact with eachother and then some nylon sleeve over them.. I imagine it should work. Just need a huge sleeve... two techflex runs ander the nylon sleeve would be easier to work with, I guess. 

 That config might be good for interconnects but I wonder if shielding is even that needed in a hedphone cable. If not, I could get away with just 4-conductors-twisted-in pairs-and-heatshrinked-seperatly combo...

 EDIT: J.D.N@ I'd really like to think that this Starquad Canare I used yesterday for my porta's is perfectly fine (since I freaking love that thing) but les_garten put doubts in me.. 




 But then if I got fsma's idea right, starquad used this way should be fine (correct me if I'm wrong). 
 Personaly I still feel it's not a good idea to run two signals in such a close proximity to each other, paralel or not..


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Peyotero* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So it was 3am and I forgive you 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. You missed my point in that paragraph where you thought I called you a scammer. What why would I? I'm on your side. Please re-read at 8:00/9:00AM after a tasty breakfest
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 My actual point was that if someone is trying to sell/make a wrongly made cable and call it "litz braid", *before this kind of bubble bursting thread* then he is just ignorant because he doesn't know he's doing it wrong (since everybody and his sister makes it same way).

 <<<SNIP>>>
 But then if I got fsma's idea right, starquad used this way should be fine (correct me if I'm wrong). 
 Personaly I still feel it's not a good idea to run two signals in such a close proximity to each other, paralel or not.._

 

I would say be a little patient. I'll shoot some pix of the cable I have. I "think" i can get it in a Furutech or neutrik. Guitar Center Roadies looked at my wire and plug and said it would go in there with some work and technique.

 You can't drill out the one's I've seen because you would take the threads out.

 The Chimera site perpetuated a problem based on pure happenstance. When I talked to the guy about his cable technique, after some discussion he finally got something across to me. This is very important, because here is where a lot of the problems started.

 On his instructions, you see left and right labels. Everybody looked at that and thought it meant Left and Right Channels. I thought that was what he meant. I kept coming back to how that was screwing up the twist and what not. Pay attention to the next part.

 He finally got it across to me that that was labeling L and R sides of the vise holding the Cable!!! It's for starting reference!! Has nothing to do with signale channels. His braid is meant to scale to 4/4 8/8 or 24 and 24. He's just showing a braid for a +/- wireset.

 That's where the FAQ question/answer came in. I talked with him at length about making a Stereo Cable and he was confused about why anyone would do that!!

 His L/R labels could have been just as easily A and B if that's how we labeled our hands. DOESN'T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH CHANNELS!!

 He locks his wire ends in a vise to start the twist, you divide them up into L and R. When all the Lefts are back on the Left side you have completed a set!

 He also did the Positives on the inside and the negatives on the outside which confuses the hell out of folks who don't understand that it has nothing to do with Stereo.


----------



## null_pointer_us

(deleted)


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *null_pointer_us* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_[size=xx-small](I'm just summarizing others' posts here so that I can get a handle on what's been found so far.)[/size]

 To recap:


*1. The litz-braiding technique uses 4-wires per channel.*

 Proper litz-braided mono cable:

 - 4-wire braid (channel 1): --{1-, 1+, G+, G-}--

 Proper litz-braided stereo cable:

 - 4-wire braid (channel 1): --{1-, 1+, G+, G-}--
 - 4-wire braid (channel 2): --{2-, 2+, G+, G-}--

 Naturally, grounds aren't considered separately with this technique because, with the litz braid, the grounds are integrated into each channel; additionally, the grounds of all channels are linked at the beginning and end of the cable.


*2. No hard evidence has (yet) been provided to prove the hypothesis that proper litz-braiding has a practical benefit.*

 Maybe a discussion could be started in the sound science forum? From what I've read, crosstalk can be measured objectively; surely someone in that forum has the proper equipment and would be willing to test the hypothesis. Personally, I'd really like to see the results.


*3. Regardless, improper litz-braiding: a) is misleading, b) can never be more than a gimmick, and c) may even be detrimental.*

 Combining wires from different channels in the same braid doesn't have any positive effect (because it doesn't fit the hypothesis behind litz braiding's supposed benefits); and, it may even introduce the opportunity for problems (if the improper braid is assumed to eliminate/reduce the need for shielding between the channels)._

 

You may want to re-read since you missed everything.

 .


----------



## Rick

I apologize peyotero, my bad.

 Yes, I agree with you completely on that matter.

 I easily fit 8 wires into any connector, listening using furutech FP-704 as I'm typing this, except there's 16 wires, but I won't get into that. I'd post pics but that would be against commercial posting policies.

 Les_gartens: exactly, glad some are honestly getting it. 

 And no, actually, shielding is not needed with this style of braiding IF and only if, it is done correctly. multiple conductors of each pos and neg signal, braided in that specific fasion, starting and ending with negatives on outside, positives on inside, as this creates a shielding of EMI and RF rejection around the cable as the wavelength passes through it.


----------



## Peyotero

Here's a nice thread that was bumped recently of how to and how not to when you go up the scale http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f4/cab...-w-pic-250230/ "stright from Denon".

 les_garten@ when you post that pic of your cable. plz plz plz resize it. Thanks!


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Peyotero* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Here's a nice thread that was bumped recently of how to and how not to when you go up the scale http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f4/cab...-w-pic-250230/ "stright from Denon".

 les_garten@ when you post that pic of your cable. plz plz plz resize it. Thanks!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

You don't like those Pix?

 Those are the smallest my Camera Makes 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 .


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## Peyotero

I love'em man
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 it's just if they are to large they break the thread normal size and it's hard to read and respond.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Peyotero* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I love'em man
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 it's just if they are to large they break the thread normal size and it's hard to read and respond._

 

Yeah, I post'em that size when I'm too lazy to do a Batch resize.

 .


----------



## Peyotero

As long as you aren't to lazy to work on the actual cable, I'm fine with any pic size


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Peyotero* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_As long as you aren't to lazy to work on the actual cable, I'm fine with any pic size
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 


 Ahhhh, Ohhhh!

 .


----------



## fierce_freak

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fsma* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_4. Upon finishing your cable, don't immediately listen to death metal, or R&B/rap and then say that you cannot hear a difference, no duh you can't, thats not hi-fi audio to begin with. put on some classical/jazz or classic rock for that matter._

 






 I'm with you on everything else, but this statement is pretty lame. I'm sure hi-fi appropriate recordings can probably be found in most genres, and genre has nothing to do with something being hi-fi or not. Sure, you're more likely to get "hi-fi" recordings in the classical genre, but that doesn't preclude other genres from having hi-fi appropriate recordings.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fierce_freak* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_





 I'm with you on everything else, but this statement is pretty lame. I'm sure hi-fi appropriate recordings can probably be found in most genres, and genre has nothing to do with something being hi-fi or not. Sure, you're more likely to get "hi-fi" recordings in the classical genre, but that doesn't preclude other genres from having hi-fi appropriate recordings._

 

I would say separating Layers of Grunge is always a good thing and the intended goal!






 .


----------



## Peyotero

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fierce_freak* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_





 I'm with you on everything else, but this statement is pretty lame. I'm sure hi-fi appropriate recordings can probably be found in most genres, and genre has nothing to do with something being hi-fi or not. Sure, you're more likely to get "hi-fi" recordings in the classical genre, but that doesn't preclude other genres from having hi-fi appropriate recordings._

 

Yup. Some stuff from Tool for instance... or The liquid Tension Experiment ***


----------



## slypher

I think maybe he was thinking was some rock and rap songs have a lot going on so it can be hard to destiguish subtle changes in sound. I also agree with your statement there should be quality recordings of every kind of music available.


----------



## fierce_freak

Yeah, I considered that could be what he meant, too. I just was a little annoyed and probably over-reacted


----------



## Xan7hos

Subjectively speaking, when people speak of improvements due to recabling..whether be it Star Quad (Canare, Mogami, and even Cardas) or litz braided Jena, SPC, or UPOCC wires, how much of an influence does crosstalk play? Putting psychological biases aside, can we assume that even with the same wire, with a different implementation, should the sound sound better?

 I.e. a dual litz braid 2x4 wire braid, which are isolated from each other would be superior to that of a litz braid (4 wires interbraided together in stereo format)?


----------



## Peyotero

I'm not sure this thread is about different quality cables/materials and their impact on sound. More about the right way to make a cable and a freestyle cable (aka no rules applied).

 I.e you missed the whole point of it. aka 8 conductor cable with 4 conductor separatly Litz Braided= proper Litz Braid for unbalanced stereo cable. 
 4 conductor cable braided "Litz Braid style" then y split into a stereo configuration= cheap workaround shortcut that probably introduces crosstalk and it's not clear if you even achieve Litz Braid's main and only goal- shielding.


 SQ differences between cables are a cloudy subgect and there's no concensus about it. +SQ is subgective and metter of tatse. One could argue about it till the world goes back flat again.
 While *there is* a general concensus on the right and wrong way to make a stereo cable- YOU DON'T MIX CHANNELS. Pure science backed up by scientists and not us audio loonies 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 As for crosstalk influence, just google it. It's pretty severe. Here's an extreme example.

 Regardles, if you'd ask me, I'd pick a professionally made durable cable over some freestyle aftermarket bling bling stuff any day. Unless it atleast folows one basic rule- don't mix them damn channels. No one does that. Why would you? I'd understand if one made up good enough reason for that and try to sell it as the new big thing. I wouldn't mind since I don't belive 90% of the rest of the stuff he said (aka cryo treatment etc..) But no one even proposed a reson for intermixing channels aside from cutting costs and convinience.


----------



## Xan7hos

Okay, so lets say I want to recable my headphone, and i have a 100ft. spool of [you favorite wire here] @ [favorite AWG here] and I want to terminate in a 1/8" Stereo Plug (or 1/4" plug if you prefer). 

 What in your opinion is the best way to do this? (assuming you have material to shield it as well..or any and all material for that matter)


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Xan7hos* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Okay, so lets say I want to recable my headphone, and i have a 100ft. spool of [you favorite wire here] @ [favorite AWG here] and I want to terminate in a 1/8" Stereo Plug (or 1/4" plug if you prefer). 

 What in your opinion is the best way to do this? (assuming you have material to shield it as well..or any and all material for that matter)_

 

Hopefully I'll have PIX in two weeks to show the whole deal. Although my favorite wire won't do 1/8".

 .


----------



## Peyotero

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Xan7hos* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Okay, so lets say I want to recable my headphone, and i have a 100ft. spool of [you favorite wire here] @ [favorite AWG here] and I want to terminate in a 1/8" Stereo Plug (or 1/4" plug if you prefer). 

 What in your opinion is the best way to do this? (assuming you have material to shield it as well..or any and all material for that matter)_

 

That one is a better question. I'm still in the prosess of figuring out this for myself. I thought either about making two 4 litz braid runs with some SPC with heatshrink all over each run and then both in nylon sleevin. OR stripping the pvc insulation from two canare/mogami/whatever then shrink all over the shield (or even strip the shield aswell) and then nylon sleeve/tech flex.

 Way more expencive then your typical recables around here but that's what I have for now...


----------



## Xan7hos

yes it seems like ideally the best headphone recable is a balanced setup where the channels are completely indepedent from one another (sort of like speaker wires i assume), however being that they are headphone cables that are terminated in a phono plug, there's a matter of how to address the part below the "Y" split and how they can be joined without cross talk.

 Looking forward to your pictures!


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Xan7hos* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_yes it seems like ideally the best headphone recable is a balanced setup where the channels are completely indepedent from one another (sort of like speaker wires i assume), however being that they are headphone cables that are terminated in a phono plug, there's a matter of how to address the part below the "Y" split and how they can be joined without cross talk.

 Looking forward to your pictures!_

 

Hi,
 The only really good scenario is Fully Balanced wiring. But we'll see if we can come up with a decent single ended solution.

 Les


----------



## Good Times

Ha, I'm glad, and yet frustrated that I've found this thread. I thought I had an adequate knowledge of cable building, and now you guys bring this up!!


----------



## slypher

I am in the prosses of having some 8 wire litz braided balanced sennheiser hd650 cables made. When I have them I will tell you what thay are like, hopefully by the weekend.


----------



## dazzer1975

This is an interesting discussion, and perhaps naively I thought there may have been a definitive answer and consensus on which was the correct way of braiding a headphone cable.

 However, it would be interesting to know if anyone with a headphone cable "incorrectly braided" has been bothered even in the slightest with emi/rfi and/or cross talk?

 Is there even a real world problem that people need to overcome here? Simply from the point of view of people's listening experiences.


----------



## slypher

It pionts out in the FAQ section of the chimera web site that he would not do it himself but he did recomend trying it to see what it was like and if any of the theorized chrosstalk exists.


----------



## Good Times

Can anyone tell me why crossing signal wires can cause more potential crosstalk than having two signal wires parallel to each other? Isn't it more about proximity rather than their relationship to each other?


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Good Times* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Can anyone tell me why crossing signal wires can cause more potential crosstalk than having two signal wires parallel to each other? Isn't it more about proximity rather than their relationship to each other?_

 

FSMA can't speak in this thread anymore. I actually started the original discussion with Kabeer about his cable. I don't make money building cables so I can speak here. The "crossing" phrase means putting the signals(L/R) in close intimate proximity with each other.

 Headphone cables by their nature make handling of the signal wires difficult. The so called "Litz braid" takes these signal wires and moves them close together and away from each other as you run down the braid. 

 The Chimera site was designed around building MONO Interconnects. Not mixing up your signal wires in a pretty braid. 

 .


----------



## S J

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dazzer1975* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_However, it would be interesting to know if anyone with a headphone cable "incorrectly braided" has been bothered even in the slightest with emi/rfi and/or cross talk?_

 

Nope! But then I've never heard a 'correctly' braided one, so maybe there is a difference that you can't hear... till... you hear it..... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 If I read this thread correctly, 2 parallel twisted pairs should be okay? You don't get the shielding effect of a Litz braid, but you don't get the crosstalk you would from a braid with crossed L/R, right?


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *S J* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Nope! But then I've never heard a 'correctly' braided one, so maybe there is a difference that you can't hear... till... you hear it..... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 If I read this thread correctly, 2 parallel twisted pairs should be okay? You don't get the shielding effect of a Litz braid, but you don't get the crosstalk you would from a braid with crossed L/R, right?_

 

I would say that's a good assessment. Shielding between the pairs, mo' better. We're not just talking Crosstalk, Less RFI/EMI from the other channel should yield lower noise floors, and better overall SQ.

 .


----------



## S J

Yeah, so its the middle ground between the two braiding styles, but doesn't require the huge 8-conductor cables


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *S J* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yeah, so its the middle ground between the two braiding styles, but doesn't require the huge 8-conductor cables 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I think the cable that the OP suggested was two separate "Litz Braids" I think better than that is two separate or Dual Star Quads.

 .


----------



## S J

Hrmm, I didn't see the cable he posted before it got edited out. You have a link saved? Star Quads are 4-conductor twisted geometry right? Thats what it looks like in the pictures, but its hard to tell. When you wire them up, you put two conductors from the same cable to the left signal, 2 to left ground, and the same for the other wire and the right channel?


----------



## Peyotero

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dazzer1975* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_<snip>
 Is there even a real world problem that people need to overcome here? Simply from the point of view of people's listening experiences._

 

Not the best example but still an intresting enough example of what might happen when running unscreened signals in close proximity. Re: Video down Audio Cable : Audio Professionals
 Numerious exapmles like that in the video/networking dome. 
 Audio is a bit trickier since you can't _show_ someone what you hear unless something is seriously ******* up. Also the fact that someone can't hear what/how someone else does, doesn't mean it doesn't exists. I'm pretty sure that a random newb like myself can't hear half of the stuff that a sound engenier or a musician does.

 Crosstalk should be easy to mesure since we aren't talking about better/or worse sound here because again, to each his own. Crosstalk is plain WRONG. It's an error. An error that isn't really open for debate. It's not a metter of taste either. 

 I've no doubt that cross talk as a _real_ issue in the audio world and there are dozens of interconnects that mesure difrently and have a millions of different configurations (we're talkin professional audio here. not after market).

 What puzzles me is headphone cables. It seems that they all are pretty much the same zip cord from low-fi to high-fi.
 So either there was a research and no significant problem was found with that style (dunno maybe the signal that the hp cable carries is so low that it doesnt couse much trouble), or they just didn't bother. Which is sorta unlikly, but who knows? Fact is that even the punniest headphone has both signals running in paralel separated with insulation.

 Anyone knows if there are any headphones that have a shielded cable?


----------



## S J

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Peyotero* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anyone knows if there are any headphones that have a shielded cable?_

 

Not stock, but I believe the Cardas and some Moon headphone cables have shields.


----------



## Peyotero

Yeah I meant stock.
 Moon stuff aside, does Cardas makes their own hp cables? Not talking about tweaked mono cables here by DIY's..

 EDIT: lol stumbled on this while googling crosstalk. Since the word crosstalk is mentioned in the comments it popped up in the search heh


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Peyotero* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yeah I meant stock.
 Moon stuff aside, does Cardas makes their own hp cables? Not talking about tweaked mono cables here by DIY's..

 EDIT: lol stumbled on this while googling crosstalk. Since the word crosstalk is mentioned in the comments it popped up in the search heh_

 

Hi,
*Please don't post that or discuss it here. That will get this thread closed quick. And there are folks that want this thread closed.*

 I think headphones are a small market

 I think Hi End Headphones are an even smaller market

 Then there's the Headphone Nutz that are after the ultimate signal quality, and that is even a smaller market. Those that would actually tweak their cables.

 My Plan is to build a Balanced amp to match my Balanced DAC, then do balanced cables on all my phones.

 The Star Quad wiring for one Channel is to take the two white wires and use them for Signal and the two blues wires and use them for ground. That would make the signal wires(same Channel) Diagonally opposed across the quad config. As you run down the cable they twist with the grounds.

 .


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Peyotero* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Not the best example but still an intresting enough example of what might happen when running unscreened signals in close proximity. Re: Video down Audio Cable : Audio Professionals
 Numerious exapmles like that in the video/networking dome. 
 Audio is a bit trickier since you can't show someone what you hear unless something is seriously ******* up. Also the fact that someone can't hear what/how someone else does, doesn't mean it doesn't exists. I'm pretty sure that a random newb like myself can't hear half of the stuff that a sound engenier or a musician does.

 Crosstalk should be easy to mesure since we aren't talking about better/or worse sound here because again, to each his own. Crosstalk is plain WRONG. It's an error. An error that isn't really open for debate. It's not a metter of taste either. 

 I've no doubt that cross talk as a real issue in the audio world and there are dozens of interconnects that mesure difrently and have a millions of different configurations (we're talkin professional audio here. not after market).

 What puzzles me is headphone cables. It seems that they all are pretty much the same zip cord from low-fi to high-fi.
 So either there was a research and no significant problem was found with that style (dunno maybe the signal that the hp cable carries is so low that it doesnt couse much trouble), or they just didn't bother. Which is sorta unlikly, but who knows? Fact is that even the punniest headphone has both signals running in paralel separated with insulation.

 Anyone knows if there are any headphones that have a shielded cable?_

 

Of all the issues out there, crosstalk is one of the easiest to quantify. Imaging, resolution, detail, soundstagre, PRAT, and all the other stuff is subjective.

 .


----------



## Peyotero

Could you eleborate more on the "balanced" part? I've heared it supposed to be superior to un-balanced but what it has got to do with the topic?


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Peyotero* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Could you eleborate more on the "balanced" part? I've heared it supposed to be superior to un-balanced but what it has got to do with the topic?_

 

Read all the articles here and then think how that would translate to Single ended. Once you understand all the ideas behind balanced, you kinda get the idea about this thread and why it happened.

About Balanced Headphones - HeadRoom - Right Between Your Ears

 .


----------



## Good Times

Les, the velco holding my wallet shut just made a rip sound. Are you dooming me to try balanced!? Nah I'm enjoying learning actually.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Good Times* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Les, the velco holding my wallet shut just made a rip sound. Are you dooming me to try balanced!? Nah I'm enjoying learning actually._

 

I hear Ya! 

 But i feel yo can get some of the idea behind Balanced gear by having a good Headphone cable for single ended.

 .


----------



## Good Times

Dodgy iPhone pic, but here's how I've laid out my latest LOD in light of discussions here - the ground is the centre wire. Easy enough for a short run anyway.....


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Good Times* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Dodgy iPhone pic, but here's how I've laid out my latest LOD in light of discussions here - the ground is the centre wire. Easy enough for a short run anyway....._

 

Hi,
 That's a tough situation. Not sure what the ideal method is.

 .


----------



## Zaubertuba

Great discussion, guys. I actually taught a class on balanced -vs- unbalanced electrical theory for a pro sound course at our university--so this thread's bringing back a lot of memories....and making me want to rationalize getting a balanced headphone amp all the sooner. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi,

 Mogami W2930 is a 2-Ch Snake.
MOGAMI - The Cable of the PROS

 The problem is it is about 1mm too large in Diameter. We need it to be around 6.5mm or 0.25" Max in my opinion.

 I just sent in a request for a sample. The Canare 2-Ch. Star Quad is bigger .

 Canare L-4E3-2P
Canare Corp. - Quality Cables and Connectors:

 We need a custom 2-Ch Mini Star quad at 6.5mm!


 ._

 

Hey Les, do you think the .3" diameter of the Mogami would really be too unmanageable? I'm really interested in trying this--I've been looking at making a long headphone cable replacement, and using either of these two channel snake cables seem a heckuva lot easier than braiding 16-20' of wire. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 If I did it right I could probably even convert it to a balanced cable later...after I got a balanced-output amp, of course.


----------



## smeggy

This thread is awesome... If I braid enough unshielded cable together really tightly I can make a nice subtle crossfeed without added components, just what I want 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Thanks 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Wait, maybe this is what people are talking about when they say they get better soundstage after upgrading... what do you think? Hehe


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Zaubertuba* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Great discussion, guys. I actually taught a class on balanced -vs- unbalanced electrical theory for a pro sound course at our university--so this thread's bringing back a lot of memories....and making me want to rationalize getting a balanced headphone amp all the sooner. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






 Hey Les, do you think the .3" diameter of the Mogami would really be too unmanageable? I'm really interested in trying this--I've been looking at making a long headphone cable replacement, and using either of these two channel snake cables seem a heckuva lot easier than braiding 16-20' of wire. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 If I did it right I could probably even convert it to a balanced cable later...after I got a balanced-output amp, of course. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Mogami was supposed to send me a sample and they never got it to me. I think that Mogami wouldn't be That hard to work with. Would make a nice balanced cable too.

 I need to get bck in touch with them. I got the Canare and forgot about the Mogami.

 .


----------



## Peyotero

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Good Times* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Dodgy iPhone pic, but here's how I've laid out my latest LOD in light of discussions here - the ground is the centre wire. Easy enough for a short run anyway....._

 

I still havn't done a direct, proper, comparison with one config over another, but personally I'd either add another wire for the ground or atleast run both signal wires in a smaller gouge then the ground.
 The reasoning behind this, if I get electricity right, is that an external interference will allways pick the easiest route (aka the one with the lowest resistance). Just like it happens with lightning when it "decides" to hit the ground.
 Higher qouge= lower resistance. 
 And we wan't unwanted interference to hit the ground and not the signal. Hence the reasoning.

 Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

 p.s
 Thanks for the link, les. So if I get this right, not only we want both channels to be as screened as possible from each other, we also want the negative signal screened from the positive signals? (??).


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Peyotero* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I still havn't done a direct, proper, comparison with one config over another, but personally I'd either add another wire for the ground or atleast run both signal wires in a smaller gouge then the ground.
 The reasoning behind this, if I get electricity right, is that an external interference will allways pick the easiest route (aka the one with the lowest resistance). Just like it happens with lightning when it "decides" to hit the ground.
 Higher qouge= lower resistance. 
 And we wan't unwanted interference to hit the ground and not the signal. Hence the reasoning.

 Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

 p.s
Thanks for the link, les. So if I get this right, not only we want both channels to be as screened as possible from each other, we also want the negative signal screened from the positive signals? (??)._

 

Hi,
 You want the Signal and the ground in a twist configuration with each other


----------



## Peyotero

Meh that's easy as strawberry pie. You just canibalize a canare/mogami quad cable and separate the channels. You also get perfect machine made twists.

 I've heared it's good for balanced but I still don't get why it's good for us..


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Peyotero* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Meh that's easy as strawberry pie. You just canibalize a canare/mogami quad cable and separate the channels. You also get perfect machine made twists.

 I've heared it's good for balanced but I still don't get why it's good for us.._

 

You even should do this if you build an amp. All the wires, even the power wires are twisted. Somebody will come up with a link I'm sure.

 .


----------



## slypher

From my understandind after reading the chimera web site to creating a shielded cable you have to have a minimum of 4 solid core wires of the same length, 2 for each channel that have to be braided loosely (add 2 aditional cables for grounds or shields). 

 He described a simple tightly swisted wires as a pseudo/alternate litze but it does not contain the same properties ie increaced bandwidth and exelent phase performance as the litz braid. 

 I do not know what increaced bandwidth and high phase performance have to do with music but maybe someone ells will chime in.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *slypher* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_From my understandind after reading the chimera web site to creating a shielded cable you have to have a minimum of 4 solid core wires of the same length, 2 for each channel that have to be braided loosely (add 2 aditional cables for grounds or shields). 

 He described a simple tightly swisted wires as a pseudo/alternate litze but it does not contain the same properties ie increaced bandwidth and exelent phase performance as the litz braid. 

 I do not know what increaced bandwidth and high phase performance have to do with music but maybe someone ells will chime in._

 

Can you post a link to where you saw the Chimera site reference "two for each channel"?

 .


----------



## Peyotero

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You even should do this if you build an amp. All the wires, even the power wires are twisted. Somebody will come up with a link I'm sure.

 ._

 

I came up with my own link
 Here's a little quote:
  Quote:


 So, what's it all mean to audio cable design?

 First, a little bit of thought about common mode noise rejection will explain why it is important to use balanced cable for balanced circuits, and unbalanced cable for unbalanced circuits. If we were to make the mistake of using coaxial cable in a balanced audio circuit, we'd get plenty of noise--because coax is designed to focus as much of the noise as possible onto the shield conductor and as little as possible onto the center conductor, and common mode noise rejection only works if noise affects the two conductors equally. If, on the other hand, we were to use an unshielded twisted pair to convey signals in an unbalanced circuit, figuring that twisted pair cables provide common mode noise rejection, we'd get a rude surprise. Common mode noise rejection won't work in an unbalanced circuit, because we're not getting signal current flow in the ground conductor; meanwhile, by dispensing with a shield, we've given up the only protection that an unbalanced circuit can provide against noise.

 Confusion of these concepts is fairly common, and understandable. One will often hear in audio discussions that "twisted pairs provide superior noise rejection," because it's often assumed that it is the cable construction itself, rather than the equipment circuitry, that accounts for common mode noise rejection; as we've discussed above, it's really the combination of the two which account for the phenomenon. This misconception sometimes leads to people using shielded twisted-pair balanced audio cable as an unbalanced interconnect; they will ground one of the two signal wires at both ends of the cable, and then ground the shield--sometimes at both ends, but sometimes only at one end, causing a loss of shield effectiveness. The problem with this sort of construction is that it dramatically increases the capacitance of the cable by adding the shield to the one side. Instead of just the capacitance between the two conductors, one now has the total of (1) the capacitance between the two conductors, and (2) the capacitance between the signal wire and the shield. As capacitance in audio cable is very definitely an enemy, this is a serious sacrifice to make, especially when there is no noise rejection benefit. Coaxial cable, not twisted pair audio cable, is the right choice when connecting unbalanced components. 
 

Which made me wonder if some one has ever tried to use two damn COAXIAL cables for an hp recable


----------



## slypher

I emaild Cimera labs regarging a stereo conector and his reply was

 RE: Stereo interconnect using litz braid‏
 From: ChimeraLabs (chimeraone@worldnet.att.net) 
 Sent: March 31, 2009 5:03:48 PM 
 To: 'Stephen McArthur' (stephen_mcarthur@hotmail.com) 

 You braid 6 conductors. Two on the right channel, two on the Left channel and two on the ground. You end up with a single stereo cable. If you braid with 24AWG or larger, you only need one strand on right, left and ground for a three strand braid. It should be a solid core conductor with cloth or very thin insulation. Magnet wire would work the best. 



 Best Regards,. 



 Dennis Boyle

 Chimera Laboratories

 Website: Chimera Labs exceptional audio cables, pure copper, superior sonics, speaker cables, audio interconnects, internal speaker wire

 Website: Audio Information Audio Products

 This section is quoted from Chimeras DIY section of their web site
 "RCA Jacks - Butt the two tinned positive strands together and solder them to the center pin of your RCA connector. Take one negative strand and solder it to the right side face of the slot in the Jack's shell or body. Solder the remaining negative strand to the left side face of the jack's slot. Make sure each strand has the same length from its solder point to the rear edge of the Jack shell. This is important because you are trying to make sure each strand in the braid is the same length. Take your brush and clean off all the flux residue on all the solder joints. Your next step is braiding the cable."
 Quoted from Chimer Labs website.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *slypher* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I emaild Cimera labs regarging a stereo conector and his reply was

 RE: Stereo interconnect using litz braid‏
 From: ChimeraLabs (chimeraone@worldnet.att.net) 
 Sent: March 31, 2009 5:03:48 PM 
 To: 'Stephen McArthur' (stephen_mcarthur@hotmail.com) 

 You braid 6 conductors. Two on the right channel, two on the Left channel and two on the ground. You end up with a single stereo cable. If you braid with 24AWG or larger, you only need one strand on right, left and ground for a three strand braid. It should be a solid core conductor with cloth or very thin insulation. Magnet wire would work the best. 



 Best Regards,. 



 Dennis Boyle

 Chimera Laboratories

 Website: Chimera Labs exceptional audio cables, pure copper, superior sonics, speaker cables, audio interconnects, internal speaker wire

 Website: Audio Information Audio Products

 This section is quoted from Chimeras DIY section of their web site
 "RCA Jacks - Butt the two tinned positive strands together and solder them to the center pin of your RCA connector. Take one negative strand and solder it to the right side face of the slot in the Jack's shell or body. Solder the remaining negative strand to the left side face of the jack's slot. Make sure each strand has the same length from its solder point to the rear edge of the Jack shell. This is important because you are trying to make sure each strand in the braid is the same length. Take your brush and clean off all the flux residue on all the solder joints. Your next step is braiding the cable."
 Quoted from Chimer Labs website._

 

As mentioned earlier, I talked with Dennis at some length on the phone:

 Here's the quote from his FAQ:

*Have you tried a multi-strand Litz which is left-right channel separated just at the ends so you have what looks like a single Litz connector carrying two channels. Downside / upside to doing so?*
_I do not have any personal experience in combining channels into one Litz braid. My instinctive response is why would we want to interleave two different signals?.....sounds like a recipe for cross talk. But, the only way to learn is to build a pair and compare them to a pair braided the way I suggest. 
_


 He told you how to do it, he doesn't advocate it. Theat's a distinction with a definite difference.



 .


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Peyotero* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I came up with my own link
 Here's a little quote:


 Which made me wonder if some one has ever tried to use two damn COAXIAL cables for an hp recable 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Thanks for the BJC link. I thought his pulley thing was confusing, but the rest was good.

 .


----------



## dazzer1975

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 He told you how to do it, he doesn't advocate it. Theat's a distinction with a definite difference.


_

 

to read the quoted email directly from dennis, it doesn't appear that he was advising against using three conductors for a stereo interconnect, simply that if using wire of a certain gauge and above to use 3 conductors, 1 for each signal and 1 for ground.

 If you could get dennis to comment in this thread that would be great.

 I still have yet to hear from all those people with "incorrectly" braided unshielded headphone cables who have suffered problems from rmi, efi and crosstalk.

 With all the money they have invested in these aftermarket boutique cables you would have thought they would at the very least, contribute to this thread and warn others of the problems associated with such cables.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dazzer1975* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_to read the quoted email directly from dennis, it doesn't appear that he was advising against using three conductors for a stereo interconnect, simply that if using wire of a certain gauge and above to use 3 conductors, 1 for each signal and 1 for ground.

 If you could get dennis to comment in this thread that would be great.

 I still have yet to hear from all those people with "incorrectly" braided unshielded headphone cables who have suffered problems from rmi, efi and crosstalk.

 With all the money they have invested in these aftermarket boutique cables you would have thought they would at the very least, contribute to this thread and warn others of the problems associated with such cables._

 

Well he has commented on it publicly. Did you read my post above? I cut and pasted it from his website. I also mentioned I talked with him at length on the phone about this.

 Also, I don't know if you've noticed this phenomena here. If someone owns something, they don't pan it till after they sell it. Up till then, it's GREAT! 

 Regards to you other mention, people do state that some cables sound better than others. That's what we're talking about here. If you can get as much EMI/RFI, Crosstalk, Capacitance, and inductance out of the equation, hopefully you are left with Dead Black silent backgrounds and beautiful transparent SQ.

 IMHO to believe in that braid in a Stereo configuration, you must suspend Common Sense.

 .


----------



## Good Times

I wonder how thin you can get coax, sounds like a good solution for HF recabling.....


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Good Times* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I wonder how thin you can get coax, sounds like a good solution for HF recabling....._

 

I just bought some very small and flexible coax to do some wiring on a soundcard. Got it from Markertek.

 .


----------



## Peyotero

Since our mate, les garten has abandoned us mortals and left us without pics, I'll spice it up with two lil' prototypes I'm foolin' around with.

 This one I call 'Heavy MOFO'... right, cause he weights more then the phones themselves
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 He also complains that the neutrik plug looks redicilous on him so he ordered the buffier Canare F12




 Two paralel litz braids for each channel dressed with some huge ass nylon. 24awg for ground and 26awg for signal.
 Aye, an absolut overkill for the porta's but that's all I have and need for now.

 This one's called 'SiLLY person' because some one once told him he and Hevy MOFO are relatives so now he thinks he's cool, too. But infact Heavy MOFO is from the Navships SPC tribe and SiLLY person is from the Mogami OFC tribe. He's still young, too, so he doesn't wear nylons yet.




 Same gauge 2 wire twists running paralel.

 No comment on sound yet because the porta's are kramer modded and the KSC35's are not. Also can't compare to stock cable because it's on the KSC75's. When I'll come to recabling them (gonna use 30awg two litz braids for them or just two twisted pairs if I manage to make an even twist) I'll see if there's something worth mentioning going on in there.

 As of yet, the modded porta's sound absolutly awesome but they sounded awesome before, aswell, so no overhyped-placebo driven comments for now.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Peyotero* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Since our mate, les garten has abandoned us mortals and left us without pics, I'll spice it up with two lil' prototypes I'm foolin' around with.

 This one I call 'Heavy MOFO'... right, cause he weights more then the phones themselves
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 He also complains that the neutrik plug looks redicilous on him so he ordered the buffier Canare F12




 Two paralel litz braids for each channel dressed with some huge ass nylon. 24awg for ground and 26awg for signal.
 Aye, an absolut overkill for the porta's but that's all I have and need for now.

 This one's called 'SiLLY person' because some one once told him he and Hevy MOFO are relatives so now he thinks he's cool, too. But infact Heavy MOFO is from the Navships SPC tribe and SiLLY person is from the Mogami OFC tribe. He's still young, too, so he doesn't wear nylons yet.




 Same gauge 2 wire twists running paralel.

 No comment on sound yet because the porta's are kramer modded and the KSC35's are not. Also can't compare to stock cable because it's on the KSC75's. When I'll come to recabling them (gonna use 30awg two litz braids for them or just two twisted pairs if I manage to make an even twist) I'll see if there's something worth mentioning going on in there.

 As of yet, the modded porta's sound absolutly awesome but they sounded awesome before, aswell, so no overhyped-placebo driven comments for now._

 

Monstrous!! Been a little busy with two new pieces of gear I'm listening to/burning in. But I'm so irritated with my Denon Cabling twisting, It's beginning to give me the impetus to recable it.

 .


----------



## S J

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Peyotero* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This one I call 'Heavy MOFO'... right, cause he weights more then the phones themselves
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 He also complains that the neutrik plug looks redicilous on him so he ordered the buffier Canare F12




 Two paralel litz braids for each channel dressed with some huge ass nylon. 24awg for ground and 26awg for signal.
 Aye, an absolut overkill for the porta's but that's all I have and need for now._

 

lol that is a huge cable. Looks really nice though.


----------



## Peyotero

heh thanks. It's not a very practical one. Made just for testing out. That thing could feed a small pair of floorstanding speakers
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




:
 I'll think I'll transform it into a mini-to-RCA when I'm done fooling.

 les_garten@ you should put those flexy coax cables you've got into a got DIY use


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Peyotero* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_heh thanks. It's not a very practical one. Made just for testing out. That thing could feed a small pair of floorstanding speakers
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




:
 I'll think I'll transform it into a mini-to-RCA when I'm done fooling.

 les_garten@ you should put those flexy coax cables you've got into a got DIY use 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I've got a porta pro that needs all the pads redone. How did you do those on yours? Very nice!

 .


----------



## Peyotero

Those are px200 pads. They fit the porta's perfectly. They're not on the cheapest side but combined with the kramer mod.. you have to hear it to believe it... 

 If you'll tell me the music genres you like to listen to, I could tell you if you'll be knocked off your chair and hit the carpet or just sit there with a silly maniac smile on your face skimming through your music library as it it was the first time.. Yeah just like that


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Peyotero* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Those are px200 pads. They fit the porta's perfectly. They're not on the cheapest side but combined with the kramer mod.. you have to hear it to believe it... 

 If you'll tell me the music genres you like to listen to, I could tell you if you'll be knocked off your chair and hit the carpet or just sit there with a silly maniac smile on your face skimming through your music library as it it was the first time.. Yeah just like that
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I like a lot of alternative, blues rock, Female voice.

 .


----------



## Peyotero

Well naturally the porta's rock with rock and they just get better with the pads. Tons better. Acoustic stuff sounds outright amazing, too (for a noob like me atleast).

 As for female vocals, frankly, I didn't venture into that realm much. I'll do some listening to some Norah Jones stuff tommorow and see what's going on in there.
 Bear in mind though, that my only refference point for half decent mids are the Yuin Pk3 buds..


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Peyotero* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well naturally the porta's rock with rock and they just get better with the pads. Tons better. Acoustic stuff sounds outright amazing, too (for a noob like me atleast).

 As for female vocals, frankly, I didn't venture into that realm much. I'll do some listening to some Norah Jones stuff tommorow and see what's going on in there.
 Bear in mind though, that my only refference point for half decent mids are the Yuin Pk3 buds.._

 

I just ordered the PX200 pads, so we'll see how those do.

 .


----------



## Peyotero

Right on! I really love them. I'm especially intrested with your impressions on the higher frequencies. I want to know if they improve or not. I really can't tell. Simply because I don't know how proper highs are supposed to sound like.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.

 If you won't like them, you can sell them to me. I have another pair of ksc35 drivers that are waiting for a Kossheiser mod.


----------



## apatN

Nice work. Would love to see some A/B testing with your new cable.


----------



## Xan7hos

Beautiful 'phones Peyotero, can't wait to have my own set of KSC35s (and maybe the 25th PortaPro)

 So for one of my recable projects, I was thinking with going with Neotech NEI-300 interconnect cable, stripping off the outter pvc cable, + heatshrink per channel and maybe some nylon multifilament below the Y-split. My concern is that it is 20AWG and with the PVC jacket it comes out to 8.5mm. I'd like to terminate with a Neutrik 1/4 Phono plug. Opinions?


 Also, for the Y-split, would a ferrite core be beneficial? Actually, I guess the real question is would it be detrimental? I'd like to add one for mostly aesthetics.


----------



## Peyotero

Thanks for the compliments guys the big one was a bitch to make (I'm pretty green in DIY). I jast wanted to see if it's possible. Well, it is. But from a realistic POV, there's no real need for such a large cable with those tiny headphones.

 Xan7hos, man, 20AWG? Why??? For the UPOCC cooper wire?
 Are there no smaller awg for UPOCC out there? You could make a small power cable with that one
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 EDIT: which headphones?


----------



## Xan7hos

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Peyotero* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Xan7hos, man, 20AWG? Why??? For the UPOCC cooper wire?
 Are there no smaller awg for UPOCC out there? You could make a small power cable with that one
	

	
	
		
		

		
			








 EDIT: which headphones?_

 

20AWG is the smallest they (Both Neotech and Soniccraft) offer :/, Believe me I'd go for 22 or 24 in a heartbeat. For a future project, MS2i


----------



## Peyotero

I see. Good luck with the project. Might not be that bad with the size of those phones.


----------



## les_garten

Hey,
 Got my Mondo Canare cable into the Furutech bushing today. Tight, baby Tight! I've decided to go Balanced on everything so not sure where that leaves my testing here. I will make a balanced<<>>TRS adapter for SE amps for all my CANz.

 Ok, I got an idea. I'll make the Mondo Dual Quad canare cable about a foot longer than intended. Then I'll finish it out as a Senn cable. When I no longer need it single ended, I'll cut the end off and make a balanced adapter and term the cable balanced.

 I'll make another Senn Cable with Cardas Smurf cable., and maybe another with Mogami Star Quad 2534.

 And I'll have a stock Senn cable.

 Then Compare and sell off all the Bad ones. I suspect my Dual Quad Canare will put them all in their place!

 I'll shoot PIX.

 Dis Freakin' Cable looks like an Anaconda!!

 .


----------



## Bonthouse

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Xan7hos* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_20AWG is the smallest they (Both Neotech and Soniccraft) offer :/, Believe me I'd go for 22 or 24 in a heartbeat. For a future project, MS2i_

 

I spy with my little eye some 22, 24 & 28 awg Neotech UPOCC wire. All in teflon insulation


----------



## Xan7hos

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bonthouse* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I spy with my little eye some 22, 24 & 28 awg Neotech UPOCC wire. All in teflon insulation
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Hi, I purposely chose an interconnect cable so that each channel will be shielded and isolated from one another. Otherwise I'd go opt with a custom litz braid *Stranded*UPOCC per channel design. I think Vampire Wire makes a good stranded cast copper cable, though they're 20AWG again. :/ Thanks though!


----------



## Peyotero

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey,
 Got my Mondo Canare cable into the Furutech bushing today. Tight, baby Tight! I've decided to go Balanced on everything so not sure where that leaves my testing here. I will make a balanced<<>>TRS adapter for SE amps for all my CANz.

 Ok, I got an idea. I'll make the Mondo Dual Quad canare cable about a foot longer than intended. Then I'll finish it out as a Senn cable. When I no longer need it single ended, I'll cut the end off and make a balanced adapter and term the cable balanced.

 I'll make another Senn Cable with Cardas Smurf cable., and maybe another with Mogami Star Quad 2534.

 And I'll have a stock Senn cable.

 Then Compare and sell off all the Bad ones. I suspect my Dual Quad Canare will put them all in their place!

 I'll shoot PIX.

 Dis Freakin' Cable looks like an Anaconda!!

 ._

 

Yep, eventually, fully balanced seems to be the ultimate way to go. But I find this thread to be very usefull/intresting, still, because single ended is very widespread. And is gonna stay that way for a while.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Peyotero* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yep, eventually, fully balanced seems to be the ultimate way to go. But I find this thread to be very usefull/intresting, still, because single ended is very widespread. And is gonna stay that way for a while._

 

I ordered all the parts from Markertek this weekend. I should have the first three or four cables to test this week. The cables under test will be:

 Senn Original
 Senn My Dual Star Quad
 Senn Cardas
 Senn Mogami 2534

 All cables will be terminated with Cardas Senn connectors and Furutech 1/4" Plugs.

 TEST SETUP: HT Claro Halo >> BNC COAX OUT >> Audio-GD REF1 DAC >> DV 337SE >> TEST Cable >> SENN 650s

 .


----------



## AudioCats

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_FSMA can't speak in this thread anymore. ._

 


 why not?

 how did you know?


----------



## S J

I think it was because of MotT issues... I believe he originally posted a link to cables he manufactured and sold. Not entirely sure as it was corrected by the time I first read the thread, but if you look at the first few comments you can probably get that impression...


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *AudioCats* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_why not?

 how did you know?_

 

He sent me a PM after one of my posts telling me he had been throttled as a member of the trade. 

 .


----------



## Good Times

Any updates Les? I'm keen to hear your impressions.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Good Times* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Any updates Les? I'm keen to hear your impressions._

 

Made other cables last week, so hopefully on the schedule for this week.

 .


----------



## pdupiano

Finally got around to reading this thread.... and the OP's initial remarks' questions come from the site that Les Garten Points out (the chimera labs). Well ... I'm a bit skeptical of the information written on that site especially after reading this under the faq section. I think if you litz braid (4 braid-round) the wire you won't develop cross talk in fact you'd minimize it as opposed to starquad configurations. I'll post a more detailed reasoning thats quasi-scientific (ie. dumbded down science) but here is the portion of the faq that makes me question all the info provided from that site. If you can understand what's wrong with these quotes, you'll quickly dismiss a good majority of what's been brought up in this thread. While this thread has raised questions, I think a good majority of hurt feelings and yelling matches have misled people. Please read the original post, and the original poster's source material. 

 From:
Chimera Labs Frequently Asked Questions

 "Do you use some special tweaks or parts on your Advantage Interconnects, that will make them sound better than cables I build using your wire, solder and information?
 Yes, in some cases my cables do sound better to some DIY efforts. I always
 recommend that constructors read the Advantage Specification Sheet. It clearly details all the materials I use and covers almost all of the processes I use. I believe not stressing the wire and braiding a uniform “long” braid where the braid is not to tight is very important. Also rubbing and melting wax into the finished braid significantly improves low level detail resolution(dampens mechanical resonance?).

 But I will come clean and tell you about my “Mystery Process”, which I don’t think is mentioned in the Spec Sheet, but I will add now that I am telling you. I use a Jewelers File and a Small Tool Grinder to remove the Gold Plate on the outer body of the Plug and in the conductor mounting hole in the Plug’s Center Pin. That way I am soldering a “tinned” copper conductor to tinned copper without the gold getting in the way. Yes, I can hear a difference and the low level detail resolution and instrument voicing is better. "

 Barbeque + itouch + beer + wifi = .... its a pretty damn good sunday barbecue...


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pdupiano* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Finally got around to reading this thread.... and the OP's initial remarks' questions come from the site that Les Garten Points out (the chimera labs). Well ... I'm a bit skeptical of the information written on that site especially after reading this under the faq section. I think if you litz braid (4 braid-round) the wire you won't develop cross talk in fact you'd minimize it as opposed to starquad configurations. I'll post a more detailed reasoning thats quasi-scientific (ie. dumbded down science) but here is the portion of the faq that makes me question all the info provided from that site. If you can understand what's wrong with these quotes, you'll quickly dismiss a good majority of what's been brought up in this thread. While this thread has raised questions, I think a good majority of hurt feelings and yelling matches have misled people. Please read the original post, and the original poster's source material. 

 From:
Chimera Labs Frequently Asked Questions

 "Do you use some special tweaks or parts on your Advantage Interconnects, that will make them sound better than cables I build using your wire, solder and information?
 Yes, in some cases my cables do sound better to some DIY efforts. I always
 recommend that constructors read the Advantage Specification Sheet. It clearly details all the materials I use and covers almost all of the processes I use. I believe not stressing the wire and braiding a uniform “long” braid where the braid is not to tight is very important. Also rubbing and melting wax into the finished braid significantly improves low level detail resolution(dampens mechanical resonance?).

 But I will come clean and tell you about my “Mystery Process”, which I don’t think is mentioned in the Spec Sheet, but I will add now that I am telling you. I use a Jewelers File and a Small Tool Grinder to remove the Gold Plate on the outer body of the Plug and in the conductor mounting hole in the Plug’s Center Pin. That way I am soldering a “tinned” copper conductor to tinned copper without the gold getting in the way. Yes, I can hear a difference and the low level detail resolution and instrument voicing is better. "

 Barbeque + itouch + beer + wifi = .... its a pretty damn good sunday barbecue..._

 

If you converse with Dennis he'll tell you about the braid and the Long and the short of it.

 The exposing the Copper to solder to, I can see all kinds of ways to go at OR support that statement.

 .


----------



## pdupiano

Well If I remember correctly, gold plating does nothing to the sound. Its done to prevent oxidation. His constant refferal to "Low Level Detail resolution" for both taking off the gold plating and rubbing wax on the connectors... is well BS. In so far as I'm concerned Low Level Detail Resolution is a meaningless term. To think that wax affects the sound is just beyond any electronic theory. Unless were moving beyond the world of physics I'd dismiss his statement regarding the wax (don't forget we are talking about stationary RCA plugs here, not headphone cables). Then when he uses the EXACT same "low level detail resolution" for removing the gold plating... well let's just say I'm suspicious to say the least. 

 When we open up data transfer cables (ie lan cables) we find twisted pairs. These twisted pairs are like one channel + ground in terms of headphones. They are twisted in an effort to make sure that the noise is "evenly" applied to both cables (to ensure they are in differential mode). Now take two of those twisted pairs, rotate one at 90 degrees and manage to find a way to put them together. Take a VERY close look at the Litz 4 braid:
http://i373.photobucket.com/albums/o...s/100_0945.jpg

 Notice that one pair (the black or red) is the hot + ground. This form of braiding does the EXACT same thing as twisted pairs in the data cables. At some length, there is a 1/2 turn so that the wire exposed to the noise keeps changing back and forth. This is the same for both sets (red and black). Now when we're dealing with cross talk what we have to worry about is the magnetic field caused by the wires. The magnetic field is perpendicular to the flow of electrons, so what we have is here:

 Magnetic field: || || || || || || || || || || ||
 Wire: =============================
 Magnetic Field: || || || || || || || || 

 you can imagine a magnetic field that moves in a clockwise direction around the wire. This magnetic field when next to another wire, will induce another current. In this case it induces cross talk in the wires. so now lets examine the braid again. There are two points of interest (relative to one set of wires, either black or red):
 1. Wires intersect
 2. Wires do not intersect

 Lets take the black wires for example
 When the wires intersect you have the black wires intersecting in the middle with the red wires on opposite sides.
 We have two opposing magnetic fields, one rotating in the clockwise direction and one rotating in a counterclock wise direction, so they end up canceling each other out for the black wires.

 When the black wires do not intersect and we have the red wires in the middle, we have the magnetic field on the black wires inducing crosstalk on the red wires. But once again the induced field from one side is canceled out by the other. So what you end up getting is a net result of zero. 

 This is for Standard L/R/G audio When using a balanced set up, you actually have crosstalk taking place... BUT it doesn't matter because of the differential mode/operation of your equipment. In fact the 4litz braid is probably your best option for balanced set up because what you have is a constantly induced field on all 4 wires. The red wires induce crosstalk on the black wires, and the black wires induce crosstalk on the red wires, but when you look at the differential on both ends, all the noise cancels out and all you are left with is the signal itself. The real issue with balanced set ups is that the wires MUST, MUST be the same length, and you MUST keep a constant pitch with the braiding. Otherwise you will get crosstalk that will not cancel out when you look at the differences. 

 Hope that helps


----------



## Turgidson

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pdupiano* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_[...]Take a VERY close look at the Litz 4 braid:
http://i373.photobucket.com/albums/o...s/100_0945.jpg

 Notice that one pair (the black or red) is the hot + ground.
 [...]
 (relative to one set of wires, either black or red):
 [...]_

 

... excepted that in the picture, we don't have one set that's "two reds", and one set that's "two black"... each set is one black, one red, as the separation shows (op left of the picture).

 I'm too lazy to check if this would work in this configuration too; a priori it still would due to the intrinsic symetry of the braiding. Still, it's simpler to use this geometry as one set being the red, the other set being the black.

 On the other side, if I'm not wrong, the pairs of a data signal cable would be separated (and shielded as a pair), not united within such a Litz braid.


----------



## pdupiano

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Turgidson* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_... excepted that in the picture, we don't have one set that's "two reds", and one set that's "two black"... each set is one black, one red, as the separation shows (op left of the picture).

 I'm too lazy to check if this would work in this configuration too; a priori it still would due to the intrinsic symetry of the braiding. Still, it's simpler to use this geometry as one set being the red, the other set being the black.

 On the other side, if I'm not wrong, the pairs of a data signal cable would be separated (and shielded as a pair), not united within such a Litz braid._

 

I'm sorry I dont understand what you are saying. Don't be confused with how I terminated the ends, this is not an actual cable, I did it to explicitly show the 4 wire litz braid. As far as im concerned, one set = 1black hot + 1black ground.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pdupiano* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is for Standard L/R/G audio When using a balanced set up, you actually have crosstalk taking place... BUT it doesn't matter because of the differential mode/operation of your equipment. In fact the 4litz braid is probably your best option for balanced set up because what you have is a constantly induced field on all 4 wires. The red wires induce crosstalk on the black wires, and the black wires induce crosstalk on the red wires, but when you look at the differential on both ends, all the noise cancels out and all you are left with is the signal itself. The real issue with balanced set ups is that the wires MUST, MUST be the same length, and you MUST keep a constant pitch with the braiding. Otherwise you will get crosstalk that will not cancel out when you look at the differences.._

 

Standard L/R/G? Besides Headphone cables where does that exist, and where is it a standard to do that in a cable? I have DACs/HeadAmps/Pre-amps/Amps, you name it. Every effort is made to keep the channels separate, with walls and Mu shielding, you name it.

 Where is there Crosstalk in a Balanced cable. There is Hot/Cold/Shield. How does that have Interchannel cross talk?

 My postulation is that the reason why L/R/G is done in Headphone cables is because we are re-purposing other types of cables because the appropriate cable doesn't exist, or the proper cable is too large in diameter, or almost too large.

 I think you can braid cables together just fine for a Mono cable. 

 Just a quick question, do you build and sell braided cable Jobs?
 .


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## pdupiano

Sorry when I said Standard L/R/G I meant SE (whatever gets terminated into a TRS connector). Its certainly not the standard (if I were to judge most pro audio equipment, the standard would be xlr connectors -I assume balanced config). 

 Channels are kept separate in all audio equipment because cross talk is even worse in the internal connection of components. Everything I mentioned in my previous post results in cancelling or reducing induced effects (cross talk) but when you're dealing with signals in the process, nothing cancels out so you have to keep them separate, you're absolutely right about that. But after wards when your transmitting the signal, you can use differential transfer (like telephone lines, data lines) to reduce cross talk and noise, by using twisted cable pairs). And I think this is what we're discussing in this thread. If I'm wrong about what topic I'm discussing then know that all the info I've written down is for headphone cables not for interconnects and or internal construction of amps/dacs etc...

 As for balanced cables, I was referring to balanced cables constructed from the quad litz braid (obv no shield, just hot/cold pins with a floating pin left over). In this case, there is no cross talk from using a 4 litz braid because once again all the noise gets canceled out due to the differental mode of operation. The difference between balanced and SE (or whatever you want to refer it to) is that the means of transferring the audio signal in a balanced set up results in the cleanest possible signal, its like your headphones are connected right to the output of your amp and the wire doesn't exist(a bit of an exaggeration but I'm just trying to say balanced is about as clean as you can get while having a long cable). SE on the other hand reduces noise through the twisted cable method (at the very last when dealing with the litz 4 braid). This uses a form of differential transfer but it is not as good as a balanced set up. A balanced set up inherently uses differential means of transferring the signal so at the end so you get just the signal. SE (with twisted pairs) is just a method to try and reduce the noise/crosstalk created from long transfers. 

 I think that the previous solution somewhere near the middle of this thread (p5?) someone used a twisted pair for the r+g and a second twisted pair for the l+g. All I'm saying is that you get the same result when you do a quad litz braid (see the sample braid in my previous post). The difference is that you're sandwiching another pair of cables in between. But because of the geometry, the magnetic fields cancel each other out or at the very least they are greatly reduced. 

 Braiding cables for mono cable is fine, my point is a dual channel is fine aswell. In fact I would go so far as to say, that if it were possible to create a geometric design similar to the litz quad braid for multiple channels (greater than 2) then I would go so far as to say that even more channels would be fine. But to be honest, I don't think its possible because other braiding techniques don't utilize a twisted pair geometry in directly opposed axis like the quad litz braid.

 No, no braided... too much work, I learned the hard way. You guys ever try flat braiding with jena labs wire it looks gorgeous but...pita I've recabled my headphones for the sake of doing it myself. I've come to learn why so many companies charge high prices for their services. Grant it the cost of material may not be that high, but the amount of time and effort required to recable a pair of headphones adds 2+ hours to any job. I'll be doing a recable on my akg701's and I'm still undecided what to do with them, I think I'll just stick with a quad litz vampire wire braid. 

 On a side note, if you're interested in making a cable that is left/right channel separate, shielded etc... I think I know of a way to do it. But I think it would more than double the weight of a cable, double its thickness and well... basically turn it into an interconnect rather than a headphone cable. 

 Final points I want to emphasize:
 1) I still question the source of OP's information (particularly that website) If someone can point me to what waxing does (I assumed it was always to prevent oxidation, Dr. Xin used it in one of his tutorials and I figured that was the prupose) and what "low level detail resolution" means then I'll certainly correct/retract any of my comments regarding that site and the information available from the site. Furthermore, the gold issue.

 2) As you mention Les, we are making compromises... its the engineering principle. So long as we don't all live near a military base or a radio station, we don't all have to run balanced set ups in shielded bunkers to reduce noise. And as far as I'm concerned, the amount of cross talk you find in a headphone cable is drastically minimized by using twisted pairs and quad braiding. And yes I could go insane using shielded cables for left, right and end up with a garden hose for cables, but its just not feasable. So I make the compromise and accept some noise in my system. Or if you want both a thin cable and absolutely no noise, I would drop an extra 2 grand to get a balanced source, balanced amp, and recable all my headphones to a balanced set up. In terms of RCA connectors though where the signal is still being "processed" by your system, I would err on the side of separate channels, plus I really can't imagine interwoven interconnects, its just...well .. I dunno I find no benefit in having them versus separated lines. As far as I know the cost of building an interwoven 2 channel interconnect might be higher or at least take more time to construct. 

 3). with the exception of high end dennons, I think every cable I've cut into has some form of arrangement where the signal wires are encased in a metal shield but not from one another.


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## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pdupiano* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sorry when I said Standard L/R/G I meant SE (whatever gets terminated into a TRS connector). Its certainly not the standard (if I were to judge most pro audio equipment, the standard would be xlr connectors -I assume balanced config). 

 Channels are kept separate in all audio equipment because cross talk is even worse in the internal connection of components. Everything I mentioned in my previous post results in cancelling or reducing induced effects (cross talk) but when you're dealing with signals in the process, nothing cancels out so you have to keep them separate, you're absolutely right about that. But after wards when your transmitting the signal, you can use differential transfer (like telephone lines, data lines) to reduce cross talk and noise, by using twisted cable pairs). And I think this is what we're discussing in this thread. If I'm wrong about what topic I'm discussing then know that all the info I've written down is for headphone cables not for interconnects and or internal construction of amps/dacs etc...

 As for balanced cables, I was referring to balanced cables constructed from the quad litz braid (obv no shield, just hot/cold pins with a floating pin left over). In this case, there is no cross talk from using a 4 litz braid because once again all the noise gets canceled out due to the differental mode of operation. The difference between balanced and SE (or whatever you want to refer it to) is that the means of transferring the audio signal in a balanced set up results in the cleanest possible signal, its like your headphones are connected right to the output of your amp and the wire doesn't exist(a bit of an exaggeration but I'm just trying to say balanced is about as clean as you can get while having a long cable). SE on the other hand reduces noise through the twisted cable method (at the very last when dealing with the litz 4 braid). This uses a form of differential transfer but it is not as good as a balanced set up. A balanced set up inherently uses differential means of transferring the signal so at the end so you get just the signal. SE (with twisted pairs) is just a method to try and reduce the noise/crosstalk created from long transfers. 

 I think that the previous solution somewhere near the middle of this thread (p5?) someone used a twisted pair for the r+g and a second twisted pair for the l+g. All I'm saying is that you get the same result when you do a quad litz braid (see the sample braid in my previous post). The difference is that you're sandwiching another pair of cables in between. But because of the geometry, the magnetic fields cancel each other out or at the very least they are greatly reduced. 

 Braiding cables for mono cable is fine, my point is a dual channel is fine aswell. In fact I would go so far as to say, that if it were possible to create a geometric design similar to the litz quad braid for multiple channels (greater than 2) then I would go so far as to say that even more channels would be fine. But to be honest, I don't think its possible because other braiding techniques don't utilize a twisted pair geometry in directly opposed axis like the quad litz braid.

 No, no braided... too much work, I learned the hard way. You guys ever try flat braiding with jena labs wire it looks gorgeous but...pita I've recabled my headphones for the sake of doing it myself. I've come to learn why so many companies charge high prices for their services. Grant it the cost of material may not be that high, but the amount of time and effort required to recable a pair of headphones adds 2+ hours to any job. I'll be doing a recable on my akg701's and I'm still undecided what to do with them, I think I'll just stick with a quad litz vampire wire braid. 

 On a side note, if you're interested in making a cable that is left/right channel separate, shielded etc... I think I know of a way to do it. But I think it would more than double the weight of a cable, double its thickness and well... basically turn it into an interconnect rather than a headphone cable. 

 Final points I want to emphasize:
 1) I still question the source of OP's information (particularly that website) If someone can point me to what waxing does (I assumed it was always to prevent oxidation, Dr. Xin used it in one of his tutorials and I figured that was the prupose) and what "low level detail resolution" means then I'll certainly correct/retract any of my comments regarding that site and the information available from the site. Furthermore, the gold issue.

 2) As you mention Les, we are making compromises... its the engineering principle. So long as we don't all live near a military base or a radio station, we don't all have to run balanced set ups in shielded bunkers to reduce noise. And as far as I'm concerned, the amount of cross talk you find in a headphone cable is drastically minimized by using twisted pairs and quad braiding. And yes I could go insane using shielded cables for left, right and end up with a garden hose for cables, but its just not feasable. So I make the compromise and accept some noise in my system. Or if you want both a thin cable and absolutely no noise, I would drop an extra 2 grand to get a balanced source, balanced amp, and recable all my headphones to a balanced set up. In terms of RCA connectors though where the signal is still being "processed" by your system, I would err on the side of separate channels, plus I really can't imagine interwoven interconnects, its just...well .. I dunno I find no benefit in having them versus separated lines. As far as I know the cost of building an interwoven 2 channel interconnect might be higher or at least take more time to construct. 

 3). with the exception of high end dennons, I think every cable I've cut into has some form of arrangement where the signal wires are encased in a metal shield but not from one another._

 

We're most likely ultimately on the same page with an exception or two. The purpose of a lot of Head-Fi "stuff" is to get that last bit of resolution, blackness, detail, etc. Crosstalk is an issue with intermingling channels. I've talked to Mogami and Canare on the phone at length about their cables. The Star Quads are mono cables, PERIOD. These companies make Dual Quads for Stereo. There's good reasons why they do things the way they do.

 We make headphone cables out of the "Crap" available to us. It is re-purposing of Mono cables and this braid deal. It is, in my opinion, just 'settling" for what's there. If one of these companies truly wanted to "create" a proper cable they would keep all these things in mind and do a cutome Headphone cable, basically a well constructed and purpose built "Stereo" cable.

 This is how I arrived at the Dual Star Quad. It's only issue is that it is the "Monster Cable" of headphones. Seems to me that if anybody thinks a Star Quad is a Good idea, a Dual Star Quad is a Perfect Idea.

 Also of note, the Dual Star quads and all Snake cables are rated in their attenuation of Crosstalk, with Specs and Graphs. So the Crosstalk is there even in separated, shielded Star Quads. 

 These facts are really indisputable, I fail to understand the continued issues. 

 If we could get a "Mini" dual Star Quad we would have the Perfect cable IMHO.

 .


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## pdupiano

I certainly can't debate that. Thats why I didn't touch it. All I'm trying to say is that if you braid wire properly in a symmetric fashion (such as the quad round litz braid) you will cut down the cross talk. You know what I'll even say that if you build a wire with perfect geometry, I say it eliminates ALL cross talk. As for other noises, well thats just something that you have to deal with because you're using an unshielded headphone cable. the point is the OP of this tread, and I assume you (since I think you mentioned he can't post here anymore) are arguing against these diy /mot cables from reputable and not so reputable headfiers/cablebuilders/professionals etc.. etc.. because they induce cross talk. All I'm saying is, cables built similar to those from lawton audio which look like VERY VERY tight and geometrically perfect quad round braids will no induce cross talk in the channels. My reasoning for this is the canceling of all induced electromagnetic fields. The only reason why I know that is because geometry cuts down on calculations you have to perform... and I never liked having to do 5 hours worth of homework when I did EMF analysis. This is one of the short cuts. It's not an approximation either... its like newton forces if I push in one direction and you push in the other they cancel out. 

 So as far as I'm concerned, there's no cross talk in quad litz round braid if braided in a perfectly tight gemetrical way (its not that hard if you use a machine, human hand braiding could be questionable unless you braid it VERY tightly or have some guide). 

 But once again, one channel starquads etc.. yeah I definitely agree those should be one channel. BTW I checked out some of ALO's braiding and its a bit tougher to do the math on those it does a wierd cross over that unless I can duplicate and have in front of me, I might not be able to say if the fields cancel or not. my initial instinct is that they don't cancel and will induce some cross talk, but I can't be certain since I haven't been able to copy a braid like theirs. 

 And I guess I have to end it this way.

 Those are my 2 cents.


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## dfkt

I've got some lengths of Mogami Quad (Regular and Mini) lying around, I might whip up a stereo cable with them and do an RMAA test, checking if there's anything within the audible range that's different to other cables.

 Of course I believe companies like Mogami and Canare know what they're doing, and that there's a good cause for them to specify those cables for mono-use.


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## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dfkt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've got some lengths of Mogami Quad (Regular and Mini) lying around, I might whip up a stereo cable with them and do an RMAA test, checking if there's anything within the audible range that's different to other cables.

 Of course I believe companies like Mogami and Canare know what they're doing, and that there's a good cause for them to specify those cables for mono-use._

 

That would be interesting, but may or may not prove/disprove anything. There may be a difference that may be lost on the resolution of the test equipment. I think if there was a way to measure crosstalk in the Braids and what you are talking about, I just have to feel it would be revealing. Noise floors would be interesting as well.

 .


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## Turgidson

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pdupiano* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm sorry I dont understand what you are saying. Don't be confused with how I terminated the ends, this is not an actual cable, I did it to explicitly show the 4 wire litz braid. As far as im concerned, one set = 1black hot + 1black ground._

 

What I wanted to say is that the way you terminated the end is very confusing, vs. the demonstration: it tended to suggest that one pair = 1 red + 1 black, in which case your reasoning wouldn't work anymore. Ending the wire with a pair of red and a pair of black would have clearly lifted the confusion. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			






 As for signal transmission: the case where the "ground" is shared between both components and signal only runs through the signal cable, and the case where the "ground" line is also used to transmit real current seem different to me.
 From a headphone's view, the driver's "ground" is actually floating (and the two drivers shouldn't even share the same ground)... If I'd base calculations on the current _I_, there's as much going through the signal wire, than from the return "ground" wire. That's why dual-mode rejection is working, and it's good to twist the cables.
 On the contrary, if the ground had been "shared" by the two components, then the signal itself is transferred by the "hot" cable alone... dual-mode rejection doesn't work, and a coaxial cable would have been better.

 Thus, it'd seem to me that single-ended isn't such a bad solution for headphones... the gains of balanced headphones would be more on the dual amplification (push-pull), allowing to stay lower in the requirements on each amp section for the same output power. The electric field itself stays quite low for headphones, the gain of having a balanced ( +/- V, -/+ V) vs. the single ended ( +/- 2 V, 0) doesn't seem that huge electrically speaking... but as I'm no electrical engineer, I'd prefer someone else to confirm (or not 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).


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## pdupiano

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Turgidson* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_... the gains of balanced headphones would be more on the dual amplification (push-pull), allowing to stay lower in the requirements on each amp section for the same output power. The electric field itself stays quite low for headphones, the gain of having a balanced ( +/- V, -/+ V) vs. the single ended ( +/- 2 V, 0) doesn't seem that huge electrically speaking... but as I'm no electrical engineer, I'd prefer someone else to confirm (or not 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)._

 

The main conclusion I can draw from what I've read about balanced cables is their true differential trasmission of a signal. By carrying and allowing the noise to propagate through both signals then only "seeing" the difference between the two, you end up with just the audio signal. But your absolutely right about your last statement... which is one of the main reasons why I was hesitant to even post on this thread... for headphonecables, the issue isn't that "big." Then again as Les pointed out, headfiers are looking for that 1 - 2% improvement in their audio gear.


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## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pdupiano* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The main conclusion I can draw from what I've read about balanced cables is their true differential trasmission of a signal. By carrying and allowing the noise to propagate through both signals then only "seeing" the difference between the two, you end up with just the audio signal. But your absolutely right about your last statement... which is one of the main reasons why I was hesitant to even post on this thread... for headphonecables, the issue isn't that "big." Then again as Les pointed out, headfiers are looking for that 1 - 2% improvement in their audio gear._

 

Hey,
 I think the last bit is what can make something sound truly magical. I don't know how to quantify SQ in %. I see people do it with DACs or amps or whatever and say this DAC is 80% of such and such. hat just doesn't work for me.

 However, that last 1-2% if you like or the lack of Crosstalk or EMI/RFI can cause you to notise that focus and clarity we all are looking for. Where in complex Musical passages you hear much more detail, layering and separaion. Maybe you get the combination that makes an unintelligible phrase in a voice finally resolve. I have a Cyndi lauper tune I use for that. Or complex percussion sequences where the bits being banged now come alive. that blcok of wood sounds different on each strike, instead of the same like a synthesizer did it. You now have the feel of a Human swinging wood, and it's different with each swing of the stick. That's what we call musical, alive, engaging, Magical!

 I think it is hard to measure this, if not impossible. I don't think you can always pcik it up in Freq graphs/responces, that's for sure. I think this is an overriding reason amongst others for "Fully" Balanced and Differential gear. 

 The ideal gear, to me, is fully balanced. The Headphone Cable wold be two totally separated pieces/runs of Cardas 4x24. These would be balanced and going into the Headamp on opposite sides of the Chassis.

 Obviously, that is a bit unwieldy. So from there, you pick your compromises. I don't want to compromise much since I've sunk as much as I have in Electrics and Canz. So this cable is where I have landed so far. L-4E3-2P I am in the process of terminating it SE first and then I'll eventually do everything balanced. The SE test is that I think it will be better for SE also.

 .


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## nick_charles

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dfkt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've got some lengths of Mogami Quad (Regular and Mini) lying around, I might whip up a stereo cable with them and do an RMAA test, checking if there's anything within the audible range that's different to other cables._

 

Please do so, I think it would be important, I have done my own tests so am always interested to hear the results of similar empirical tests. Can I ask how you assess crosstalk with the RMAA thingy, I may try this myself.

 My own tests have failed to show notable measurable differences between many different cable designs including braided silver strands, solid copper, copper strands, silver plated copper and $0.77c stock cables and I was toyng with the idea of getting some of the OP's cables for testing in the future. The only thig I did find was a bit more noise on the stock cables and also on the Silver ones as well (whch are braided) , not audible but interesting.

 cheers

 Nick


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## dfkt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nick_charles* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Can I ask how you assess crosstalk with the RMAA thingy, I may try this myself._

 

I would test the cables in a loopback configuration on the input/output of my Echo AudioFire soundcard. The card measures very well on its own, here's a loopback with some bog standard stock cables (crosstalk at -108dB): RightMark Audio Analyzer test : [MME] Analog out 3-4 (AudioFire 8)


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## Xan7hos

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nick_charles* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Please do so, I think it would be important, I have done my own tests so am always interested to hear the results of similar empirical tests. Can I ask how you assess crosstalk with the RMAA thingy, I may try this myself.

 My own tests have failed to show notable measurable differences between many different cable designs including braided silver strands, solid copper, copper strands, silver plated copper and $0.77c stock cables and I was toyng with the idea of getting some of the OP's cables for testing in the future. The only thig I did find was a bit more noise on the stock cables and also on the Silver ones as well (whch are braided) , not audible but interesting.

 cheers

 Nick_

 

Good stuff to know. Also, I'm wondering if shielding, particularly wires having too much shielding, is playing a negative effect on sound (veiled sounding?)


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## les_garten

Hello,
 Chnage of Plan. Here's my Balanced Canare "DUAL" Star Quad set of Custom Grados. It's being drive like this

 HT Omega Claro Halo COAX BNC out >> Audio-GD REF 1 DAC >> CAST Interconnect >> Audio-DG Phoenix Headamp >> Balanced Out.

 After the SC, everything is Fully Balanced. The sound on this CAN I'm showing here is outrageous! I would implore some of you guys to try this cable out.

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f4/pos...ml#post5796820
   

  
   

   
  .


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## Xan7hos

So I've been speaking with Dennis Boyle over @ Chimera Labs, and this is his advice in regards to a 8-conductor litz braided headphone cable

 "A single braid with both right and left channel combined has the best performance versus two independent cables placed side by side. There was no crosstalk or background noise. You could try individual cables separated by at least ½” using tape but that will increase the insulation to conductor ratio.."

 I think I'll still opt for the 4-litz braid per channel that are independent from each other.


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## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Xan7hos* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So I've been speaking with Dennis Boyle over @ Chimera Labs, and this is his advice in regards to a 8-conductor litz braided headphone cable

 "A single braid with both right and left channel combined has the best performance versus two independent cables placed side by side. There was no crosstalk or background noise. You could try individual cables separated by at least ½” using tape but that will increase the insulation to conductor ratio.."

 I think I'll still opt for the 4-litz braid per channel that are independent from each other._

 

That goes counter to his FAQ page it would seem.

 .


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## Xan7hos

He suggested to me that a 6-8 conductor would be best, (i.e. 3+3 -> 6 or 4+4 -> 8) to which i inquired if crossfeed was going to be an issue, and that was his response. I think Dennis is more concerned about the transparency of his cable designs, which is mostly influenced by the insulation on the wires.


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