# Hotrodding the X-Fi: A Layman's Guide (No 56k)



## cotdt

The X-Fi is without question the best gaming card, but the sound quality is average at best. As someone who is used to high end external DACs with discrete output, to me the sound quality of the X-Fi can be best described as "low-fi". But rest assured X-Fi owners, we can make it far better! I actually prefer the fully hotrodded X-Fi XtremeMusic over the Benchmark DAC1. Yes, that's what I just said =). It matches the dynamics and detail of the DAC1, but with a wider soundstage, less fatigue, and far more musicality it's not even comparable.

 This guide works for sound cards in general and not only the X-Fi, but X-Fi is the most logical choice because of its versatility.

 Tools needed:
 Solder iron ($2) (I used Hakko 936 but any iron will work)
 Solder wick (helps remove stock opamp)
 Thin solder (only a little is needed)
 LM4562 SOIC (free samples from National Semiconductor)
 Blackgate 2200uF 16V (from www.partsconnexion.com or www.percyaudio.com)
 ERS Paper (from Partsconnexion or Percy Audio)
 X-Fi card (which ones? http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showpo...&postcount=122)

 A sound card consists of a DSP, a DAC chip, and an analog output stage that consists of opamps. Opamps and capacitors are the two worst offenders of sound quality. With any soundcard you can change these opamps to far better ones, remove capacitors no longer needed due to the better opamp, and give it more power by increasing the size of the power supply filter capacitors on the sound card. The sound card also sits inside a computer which is full of EMI radiation that introduces noise and degrades sound quality (especially treble). That's why audiophiles use external DACs. But now you have better shielding technology so it's no longer an issue. You can put a silicon carbide/nickel board on the back of the card. Alternatively, there is this thing called ERS paper that is much easier to apply. Basically, you can do what this guy did:
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=141880

 You should still mount the sound card as far away from the video card as you can. The lowest PCI slot should be used if possible. For music, use bit-matched playback in Audio Creation Mode.

 Summary:
 (1) Replace the stock JRC NJM4556 opamp with LM4562 SOIC
 (2) Replace the sound card's power supply capacitors with larger ones that are at least several times the original value. Quality matters, especially specs like ripple current. Blackgates were chosen for this application, but Nichicon KG would also be an excellent choice due to its specs.
 (3) Apply the ERS Paper onto the back of the sound card. You need a layer of insulating material between the sound card and the ERS paper since it's electrically conductive. 






 The mods make a HUGE difference. It's definately worth doing. And it's very easy to do especially with this guide. Takes less than an hour and doesn't cost much money. (Edit: Incorrectly labeled as the power filter capacitor, but regardless, change that cap!)

 Specs
 X-Fi XtremeMusic, Platinum, Fatal1ty FPS, and XtremeGamer uses a JRC NJM4556 opamp for the main channels and three ST4558 opamps for the surrounds. They utilize the CS4382 DAC, which we will prove is a very good DAC. The X-Fi Elite Pro uses the JRC NJM2114 opamp for the main, three JRC NJM2068 for the surrounds, and the even better CS4398 DAC, which is the same DAC used in the Lynx, E-MU 1820, Headroom MicroDAC, Musiland MD10, Zhaolu 2.5C and other high end DACs. As you can see, these are good DACs. With these mods, even the "lowly" XtremeMusic will blow them all out of the water.

 Impressions of the stock X-Fi XtremeMusic is that it is muddy-sounding, has a plasticky tone that lacks weight, lacks bass impact due to loose-sounding boomy bass. Background is fairly quiet due to a good board layout. Midrange detail is good but not great, while dynamics and soundstage leave much to be desired. I also have a hard time making out the notes when several instruments are playing. There is also not much texture to the instruments. Better DACs have a resonant quality to them that mimicks real life sounds, and the X-Fi lacks it. Still, the X-Fi is better than the vast majority of comsumer sound cards like low-end M-Audios and the Audigy series. It is also better than any portable player I've heard, but that's not saying much.

 Enter the National Semiconductor LM4562
 The LM4562 is a new opamp specifically designed for audio application and that's why it's a league above all other opamps for audio. Pretty much everyone I know who has used this opamp has been amazed by it. At the time of this writing, it's a league above the best OPA and LT and AD opamps I've tried. It has a PSRR (power supply rejection ratio) and CMRR (common-mode rejection ratio) above 120dB, so it doesn't care about the poor quality power that computer sound cards get! This will give sound cards that use them an edge over all DACs except ones that use an expensive discrete analog output.

 From http://www.national.com/pf/LM/LM4562.html:
 To ensure that the most challenging loads are driven without compromise, the LM4562 has a high slew rate of ±20V/µs and an output current capability of ±26mA. Further, dynamic range is maximized by an output stage that drives 2k loads to within 1V of either power supply voltage and to within 1.4V when driving 600 loads.

 One thing about the NJM4556 opamp is that it's a weird size longer than the usual SOIC opamp, but the card itself supports the smaller SOIC standard just fine. I cut off the NJM4556, desoldered the remains using a copper wick, and soldered on the LM4562. Make sure it's in the original orientation, which you can tell by the lettering.





 Pretty small, but still easy enough to solder.





 The NJM4556 has been removed. It's a terrible opamp and deserves to die.





 Put the card back in and notice the massive transformation. There are too many improvements to describe for this one! If you use the surround sound, you can also replace those three with LM4562 as well. The M33078 is the input opamp, and that can also be replaced if you do recording.





 Next up we will replace the power filter capacitor. The 470uF Jamicon that Creative uses has a record for failing and leaking brown crap. We will replace this with a 2200uF 16V Blackgate and hotglue it in place. Make sure the orientation is correct if using polar capacitors. Even if you're not a beleiver in changing power filter caps, the Blackgate has 1/5 of the ESR as other capacitors, excellent ripple current results, and is one of the only electrolytic capacitors that last nearly forever, as in dozens of lifetimes longer than other electrolytics. Nichicon KG would also be an excellent choice due to its specs. Anyway, the effect of this mod is tighter bass and greater warmth. I say that the choice of capacitor does matter. Take a listen before the next mod. This is essential because the next mod changes the sound signature and you may or may not like the change.





 We will now shield the DAC chip, DSP chip, opamps, and the entire backside of the soundcard. There are many options, from Texas Instruments to ERS Paper. This is not snake oil. Shielding really makes a difference. I used ERS Paper, which is electrically conductive so you need an insulation layer between it and the sound card. This mod made the sound noticeably warmer and more analogue-sounding. The digital, hyper-detailed sound is now gone and some will miss it. You will notice it right away and would probably want to turn up the volume since now it is less fatiguing. Who would have thought that shielding makes such a big difference?

 Update: After 20 hours, the sound has changed from the Blackgates burning in (previously it was too warm). Now I definately think that the shielding paper should be used. The LM4562 will eventually be renamed to the LME4986. Just giving you guys a heads up.

 Other Mods:

 Alternative opamps - There's a bunch, I've tried at least 40 different ones, some of them extremely esoteric, requiring its own special power supply. Some of them plain unstable. Out of all the "normal" opamps, I still recommend the LM4562.

 The X-Fi uses Jamicon capacitors, which are known to either fail or deviate very significantly from their specs over time. A complete recap is not unreasonable. You can buy Panasonics from Digikey, or Nichicons from Percy Audio.

 There are other mods but I don't have the schematics to the X-Fi so I don't know how to apply them. If others discover new mods I can add them to the list.

 Short the 22uF caps near each opamp (there are 4 of them for each one). I definately recommend it as others beside myself also think that shorting improves the detail and realism, with no ill effects on the card. They seem to be decoupling caps, not coupling caps, and make the DAC more stable. Not needed though, it's perfectly stable without them.

 Removing X-Fi muting transistors - Trodas did it and reported great results. 
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/ho...ml#post4470963

 Discrete Output Mod - you bypass the opamps completely and use a discrete analog output stage, such as a Zapfilter MK2 or your own brew. Simply hook up the discrete output stage directly to the outputs of the DAC chip. Advanced mod, but I'd like to see someone try it. Discrete puts opamps to shame IMHO, plus you get balanced output as an option.

 Passive Output Mod - like in the discrete mod, you bypass the opamps completely, and use either a transformer or a bandpass filter, and you have the option of getting balanced output. If using a transformer, use 1:1 ratio and 1.2k resistors across the outputs of the DAC chip to create a load. Alternatively, you can simply use a RC highpass filter. I used C=3.9uF and R=4k for a -3dB point of 10Hz. I didn't find a need to add a lowpass filter, but technically you should. I used a balanced Beta22 as my output buffer.

 hardnrg's Worklog: Hard-modding the X-Fi for better sound
http://forums.overclockersclub.com/i...howtopic=71127

 OCWorkbench's X-Fi Mod
http://www.ocworkbench.com/2007/arti...-Fi-Mod/g1.htm

 More pictures by Nicker:
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showpo...&postcount=297


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## soloz2

this is a good guide and I might try it w/ my x-fi, but I'm concerned about covering the entire back of the card... the x-fi's have been known to get pretty warm...


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## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *soloz2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_this is a good guide and I might try it w/ my x-fi, but I'm concerned about covering the entire back of the card... the x-fi's have been known to get pretty warm..._

 

really? mine's don't seem to that warm at all... only slightly warmer than ambient. I'm quite sure that it's safe to cover the back.


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## Norman

Noobie here 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Would these mods have any impact if I'm using the digital out?


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## videocrew

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Norman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Noobie here 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Would these mods have any impact if I'm using the digital out?_

 

power supply cap and shielding might, opamp and shorting caps won't


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## soloz2

I have not personally had a problem with my x-fi, but I have heard of more then one person who has had serious problems because theirs overheated. I am not sure if I do not have that problem because I have a good card, or because I have about $400 invested into cooling my rig.


 The op-amps would not benefit you if you use the digital output, but the OP said doing all the mods makes the x-fi sound better then the Benchmark DAC1 so unless you are using a better DAC it might be worthwhile to make these changes


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## Liver

Cotdt,

 What amplifier are you using with your modded card?

 Also, has anyone tried this mod with the breakout (large) one? I have an elite pro with all the goodness on the card, but the breakout box has the same opamps as the standard xfi line up. I never understood that. Have better opamps on the xfi elite pro and then the breakout box negates the benefit of having the elite pro.

 So, either I do the mod on the breakout box. Or on the card itself and get a good headphone amp.

 Either way, I assume that only one opamp needs to be replaced to achieve the mod if you are only using it for headphones (even with CMSS). Is that correct?


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## gates_2

Wow- I have the extremepro, and I"m looking foward to turning it into a beast DAC
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 So, I do recording, what op-amp would I replace that one with?(has anyone tried this?

 Edit: Wait, does the op-amp affect the line out signal quality? Most of us would seem to use the line out and an external amp


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## pheonix991

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gates_2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Edit: Wait, does the op-amp affect the line out signal quality? Most of us would seem to use the line out and an external amp_

 

Yes, it should change the sound some.

 Anyone know of any mods like this for an audigy zs2?


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## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pheonix991* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anyone know of any mods like this for an audigy zs2?_

 

Yes I've modded an Audigy 2 before and it would be exactly the same. Definately try it and tell us how it goes!


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## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Liver* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Cotdt,

 What amplifier are you using with your modded card?

 Also, has anyone tried this mod with the breakout (large) one? I have an elite pro with all the goodness on the card, but the breakout box has the same opamps as the standard xfi line up. I never understood that. Have better opamps on the xfi elite pro and then the breakout box negates the benefit of having the elite pro.

 So, either I do the mod on the breakout box. Or on the card itself and get a good headphone amp.

 Either way, I assume that only one opamp needs to be replaced to achieve the mod if you are only using it for headphones (even with CMSS). Is that correct?_

 

I'm using a Doge 6210 tube amp for my K701s, while my other headphones don't need any amp and are driven straight out of the X-Fi. I would just mod the card and use an amp (if you need an amp at all). The Elite Pro should be even better than the regular X-Fi because of the better DACs.


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## Liver

cotdt. thanks. so do you still recommend only replacing one opamp for headphone use? I would think that would be the case.

 If anyone is getting the mentioned blackgate cap and some ERS paper, let me know. Would like to buy some from you or tag alone on the buy. I bought some opamps from Digikey, so I can trade those as well if needed (should have them next week).


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## maarek99

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Liver* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Also, has anyone tried this mod with the breakout (large) one? I have an elite pro with all the goodness on the card, but the breakout box has the same opamps as the standard xfi line up. I never understood that._

 

That doesn't make sense as the breakout box on the elite pro does not have analogue outs.


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## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *videocrew* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_power supply cap and shielding might, opamp and shorting caps won't_

 

To add to that, for digital you want to do a different set of mods. This is taken from Empirical Audio's website for the E-MU but it applies to any sound card including the X-Fi:

 Digital Sound Card Mods
 ===================================
 This E-MU PCI card has several opportunities to improve the S/PDIF out, including reducing the output voltage (3X the spec), improving power delivery and precisely matching to 75 ohms. After the mod is installed, the S/PDIF output is 500mV peak-to-peak. The impedance is perfectly matched to 75 ohms and the risetime is an unprecedented 5 nsec, allowing use of very short S/PDIF cables. The manufacturer cannot design it this way because they would likely fail emissions testing. However, most audiophiles are expected to use high-quality S/PDIF cables, so the emissions should not be an issue.

 S/PDIF mod Details:

 1. Change pulse transformer
 2. Impedance match to 75 ohms
 3. Add power decoupling to decoder and driver chips
 4. Improve digital coupling caps
 5. Remove various filter components


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## Liver

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *maarek99* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That doesn't make sense as the breakout box on the elite pro does not have analogue outs._

 

it does. the headphone out.


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## fraseyboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cotdt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes I've modded an Audigy 2 before and it would be exactly the same. Definately try it and tell us how it goes!_

 

Oooh fun. I have an Audigy 2 ZS as well. Maybe I could mod that? Maybe not. I have no DIY skillz at all. I have used a soldering iron before, but only at school for little projects. How easy is it to perform these mods?


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## soloz2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fraseyboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Oooh fun. I have an Audigy 2 ZS as well. Maybe I could mod that? Maybe not. I have no DIY skillz at all. I have used a soldering iron before, but only at school for little projects. How easy is it to perform these mods?_

 

in my experience soldering things is much, much easier then desoldering things. make yourself a little amp or something like that to give yourself some practice. Too much heat will ruin components.


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## gates_2

I'm definately up for a group buy on the Paper/blackgates. Ordered 2 samples of the opamp from National- should be here soon

 I'm excited about the possibility of turning my elite pro into a seriously good source. I can Imagine after the initial mods(if all goes well) I'd recap the entire board...


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## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gates_2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm definately up for a group buy on the Paper/blackgates. Ordered 2 samples of the opamp from National- should be here soon

 I'm excited about the possibility of turning my elite pro into a seriously good source. I can Imagine after the initial mods(if all goes well) I'd recap the entire board..._

 

Good idea. Contact jude and he might be able to put one up, since Partsconnexion is a sponsor of head-fi. One sheet of the shielding paper is enough to do 3 cards.

 The Elite Pro should be seriously good. You'll be the first to have a modded one as far as I know.


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## mobayrasta

It's killing me I can't wait to hear it.


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## soloz2

I too would be up for a group buy


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## Norman

Just to clarify, this mod involes ONE op-amp change and ONE capacitor change, right?


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## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Norman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just to clarify, this mod involes ONE op-amp change and ONE capacitor change, right?_

 

yes, if you're going to use stereo. for 7.1 surround sound you'll need to change 4 opamps.


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## Norman

oops.. I just ordered 3 op amps from National Semiconductor.. oh well 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Thanks man~


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## wanderman

uhh, no test using rmaa? wow how depressing.


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## mobayrasta

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Norman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just to clarify, this mod involes ONE op-amp change and ONE capacitor change, right?_

 

My signature was wrong and I think it confused him. We initally ordered too many Blackgates. He is just sending me the extras when he sends my card back. cotdt is going to recap the whole card now. I hope he takes some more pics. This is a very informative thread. There are a ton of us who have these cards and can benefit from it.


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## janderclander14

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cotdt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_yes, if you're going to use stereo. for 7.1 surround sound you'll need to change 4 opamps._

 

I only have 3 LM opamps. As I am using 5.1 speakers, do you know which of the 3 surround op-amps should I replace?

 Many thanks for this extremely interesting guide. I can't wait to start modding my x-fi!


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## jmmtn4aj

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cotdt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_really? mine's don't seem to that warm at all... only slightly warmer than ambient. I'm quite sure that it's safe to cover the back._

 

Probably not all cards though, the heatsink was introduced later on for a reason


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## Tiramisu

WOW amazing awsome job on this detail review that you did. I love your review as an ex-X-Fi xtreme music owner. I currently use the Auzentech Meridian(or also known as Purity) 7.1 SC. This cards offers easy upgradable op-amps, a total of 4 - front, side surround, centre subwoofer, and back surround. The upgradable op-amps on them aren't required solder them in, it's just as easy, quickly and safely take them out with any mini sized flat (-) headed screw driver or with the proper chip remover tool recommanded from Auzen's support page. 

 Same with the OP, I also purchased my LM4562 from National Semiconductor but on their site I was redirected to Digi-Key. There is also DigiKey.ca so shipping from their warehouse in Ontario to BC only takes 2 days! Fast shipping.

 The LM4562NA-POBD I use on the Meridian is 8-DIP size whereas on X-Fi it's SOIC.





 Here's the long story short, I originally started with stock opamps on the Meridian which they're already preety decent. Then shortly after I switch the stock ones to Burr Brown OPA2134PA (recommanded from Auzen's support page) and sadly I hardly notice any difference despite many rave user reviews on them. Gladly I found the LM4562 in the forums and after the quick mod with them, I'm glad I was able to tell the difference right away. The sound is even cleaner, especially all instruments and each music notes are well seperated and defined. In the bass compartment, it's relatively better defined as well but not by a whole lot. Overall I'd say LM4562 op-amps are truely great and it's definetely a better upgrade over your stock SC's op-amps (NO placeable effect intended)

 I've being wondering ever since the beginning I started doing op-amp mod and that's how will I be able to tell one of the op-amps goes faulty? As I mentioned earlier, there is one op-amp for each channel and a total of 4 opamps (front, side surround, centre subwoofer and rear surround) The front is also used for headphones, stated in the manual. So that's like I'm only using one of the 4 opamps (front output) is that right? And how will I know that the opamps are still performing at its optimal state?? Any comments are appreciated


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## emericanchaos

anything like this for the m-audio audiophile cards?


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## cotdt

Thanks Tiramisu. The X-Meridian does make it easier to swap opamps, especially without a solder iron, although to me replacing SOIC opamps are still pretty quick and easy. But in my mods I've discovered that changing the opamps is only a fraction of the total improvements. Removing the output capacitors and the Blackgate mod makes just as big a difference, as did the ERS paper which made it noticeably warmer. You should try these things on your card! I've never had an opamp go bad, especially not with the voltages used on sound cards. If the sound degrades noticeably, then it's probably faulty, but i've never come across it.

 emericanchaos, my own sound card is the M-Audio Audiophile 192, and it looks to be the same set of mods. the only difference is the placement. The AKM DAC it uses is a very good one.


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## 003

It seems to me it wouldn't be to hard to solder opamp sockets onto the X-fi...


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## emericanchaos

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cotdt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_emericanchaos, my own sound card is the M-Audio Audiophile 192, and it looks to be the same set of mods. the only difference is the placement. The AKM DAC it uses is a very good one._

 

can anyone point out the power caps on one?


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## soloz2

you should start a new thread for info on modding other cards... lets try to keep this tread on topic and easy to follow.


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## janderclander14

Any alternatives for the ERS paper? I am not able to find it in my country


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## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *janderclander14* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Any alternatives for the ERS paper? I am not able to find it in my country 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

that thing made by texas intruments. there's a bunch of others. what country exactly?


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## janderclander14

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cotdt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_that thing made by texas intruments. there's a bunch of others. what country exactly?_

 

I am from Spain. Are you referring to "TI-Shield"? I have searched in the TI official site but haven't found any references...


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## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *janderclander14* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am from Spain. Are you referring to "TI-Shield"? I have searched in the TI official site but haven't found any references..._

 

i'm sure either partsconnexion or percy audio can ship to spain. if not, PM me and i can sell you some of mine.


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## janderclander14

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cotdt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i'm sure either partsconnexion or percy audio can ship to spain. if not, PM me and i can sell you some of mine._

 

Thanks, you are very kind. I have located a local distributor of Stillpoints (ERS manufacturer) and asked for supplies.

 I am going to buy the 2200 blackgate capacitor. As I do not mind of getting several caps, do you recommend to swap other x-fi capacitors for blackgates (assumming that I bypass the fullset of 5.1 -three opamps- output capacitors)?


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## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *janderclander14* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks, you are very kind. I have located a local distributor of Stillpoints (ERS manufacturer) and asked for supplies.

 I am going to buy the 2200 blackgate capacitor. As I do not mind of getting several caps, do you recommend to swap other x-fi capacitors for blackgates (assumming that I bypass the fullset of 5.1 -three opamps- output capacitors)?_

 

I'm glad you are able to find the supplies for this mod. If you want, you can replace all the remaining capacitors with Panasonics. But it won't be for sound quality, but for durability, since Jamicons are not reliable.


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## Joshatdot

tag for when I get a X-Fi


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## Pm@c

Umm does this affect the performance of EAX or gaming audio quality? Like will it still give good accurate 3d positioning, or does this affect that in order to increase music sound quality?


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## soloz2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pm@c* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Umm does this affect the performance of EAX or gaming audio quality? Like will it still give good accurate 3d positioning, or does this affect that in order to increase music sound quality?_

 

these mods when done properly should not affect the sound processing at all


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## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pm@c* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Umm does this affect the performance of EAX or gaming audio quality? Like will it still give good accurate 3d positioning, or does this affect that in order to increase music sound quality?_

 

You're basically changing the analog output, which everything must pass through for you to hear it (as long as you're not using the digital output). So yes, all modes will be affected. You will get more accurate 3D positioning in theory because the opamps are more accurate and detailed than stock. Game music should also be more clear and dynamic. But mainly the gains are for music, since you don't really pay attention to sound quality while gaming. Obviously the DSP will stay the same so don't expect your frame rate to go up with this mod.


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## jo427

cotdt;2779213 said:
			
		

> We will now shield the DAC chip, DSP chip, opamps, and the entire backside of the soundcard. There are many options, from Texas Instruments to ERS Paper. This is not snake oil. Shielding really makes a difference. I used ERS Paper, which is electrically conductive so you need an insulation layer between it and the sound card. QUOTE]
> 
> What did you use for an insulation layer between the ERS paper and the card? Also, you hot glued the Blackgate Cap to the board with a layer of ERS paper under the cap? Did you use an insulation layer there, and everyplace you used the ERS paper?


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## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jo427* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 What did you use for an insulation layer between the ERS paper and the card? Also, you hot glued the Blackgate Cap to the board with a layer of ERS paper under the cap? Did you use an insulation layer there, and everyplace you used the ERS paper?_

 

I used a mousepad. Anything works. The ERS paper is actually not even conductive when I measured it. I put some ERS Paper on the chips because it's potentially a source of EMI, but it probably doesn't make any difference. I would just use it on the DAC chip and the entire back side of the card. I glued the capacitor to prevent it from vibrating.


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## germanium

Be aware that the card puts out about 30millivolt D.C. with stock op amp at output with the coupling caps shorted. This may not seem like a lot & in most cases its not but if you have D.C. coupled amps upstream without D.C. offset compensation you can cause the amp to over heat & possably damage you amp & speakers.

 You will also notice some popping sounds as the computer is booting up & shutting down.

 That said the mod is really worth it especially if you have D.C. coupled amps that have D.C. offset protection. I'v done this to mine over a year ago & all my amps are D.C. coupled but with D.C. offset protection in my preamp. The sound is as good or better than my SACD player (SCD222ES).


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## GameBlaster

Very interesting Hotrodding, I would like to do it on my X-Fi Elite Pro but not on the card itself ( because the card is very imprtant to me it might be damaged if something done wrong) therefore I would like to do it in the breakbox which should be faster than doing it in the card,

 so if the detail of Hotrodding the breakbox can be provided it will be very easy and more safe . .


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## Henmyr

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Be aware that the card puts out about 30millivolt D.C. with stock op amp at output with the coupling caps shorted. This may not seem like a lot & in most cases its not but if you have D.C. coupled amps upstream without D.C. offset compensation you can cause the amp to over heat & possably damage you amp & speakers.

 You will also notice some popping sounds as the computer is booting up & shutting down.

 That said the mod is really worth it especially if you have D.C. coupled amps that have D.C. offset protection. I'v done this to mine over a year ago & all my amps are D.C. coupled but with D.C. offset protection in my preamp. The sound is as good or better than my SACD player (SCD222ES)._

 

I have a Xtremegamer and would like to do this mod, but this sounds dangerous. How do I know what I have? I uses xfi analog out to headfive and dt990. Will I damage my amp and headphones with this mod?


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Henmyr* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have a Xtremegamer and would like to do this mod, but this sounds dangerous. How do I know what I have? I uses xfi analog out to headfive and dt990. Will I damage my amp and headphones with this mod?_

 

What germanium did was DC-couple all his equipment, which is very good for sound quality but not as safe (although this can also be safe). If you use stock amp, 99% of the gear I've come across comes with input filter capacitors so you should be safe. To be absolutely safe, it's best to change opamps and the capacitors at the same time. I'm quite sure that with the LM4562s installed, you should get less than 10mV DC which is not a problem at all. Seriously though, even with the stock opamps the chances of equipment damage is small.

 Edit: The Corda Headfive should be safe. If I remember correctly, he used WIMAS in the signal path.


----------



## jo427

The prospect of making a dull sound card sound great is intriguing. The safe handling of the ERS paper also seems to be a vague art form. Why not just insert big sheets of it inside the computer case to separate the card form everything else? I am in the market for the best DAC in the $700 or less category and the more reviews I read (many good ones on head-fi) the more I go round and round. 

 Opinions differ greatly. It seems the benchmark can be beat for less $$. The Audio Note *kits* are $2,000+. Maybe the new Stello DA100? Which dealers sell Stello in America???


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jo427* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The prospect of making a dull sound card sound great is intriguing. The safe handling of the ERS paper also seems to be a vague art form. Why not just insert big sheets of it inside the computer case to separate the card form everything else? I am in the market for the best DAC in the $700 or less category and the more reviews I read (many good ones on head-fi) the more I go round and round. 

 Opinions differ greatly. It seems the benchmark can be beat for less $$. The Audio Note *kits* are $2,000+. Maybe the new Stello DA100? Which dealers sell Stello in America???_

 

Yes I agree that the Benchmark is not too hard to beat these days. When it first came out it was a giant killer, but now it itself has become the giant that new cheaper DACs aim to kill.

 Stello DA100 does look like a killer because it has discrete outputs and a very good AKM DAC chip, but I wonder why it is priced so cheap. Maybe it is indeed a killer, or maybe they cut corners somewhere. I am trying to find someone who has this DAC so I can do a shootout against my modded Zhaolu, which is my reference because it has beaten the Aqvox, Apogee, and Lavry in shootouts. My Zhaolu has the Zapfilter discrete output which is a proven and famous design.


----------



## janderclander14

Does anybody know which is the correspondence between the surround op-amps and the output channels? I only have 3 lm4562 amps and I would like to replace those corresponding to the 5.1 output.

 Thanks!


----------



## soloz2

I have not looked closely, but they are probably directly in order with the way the jacks are.... shortest traces and all.


----------



## AngryGuy

I want to get an Xtrememusic and try this mod out but I am nervous about soldering because I am terrible at it. 

 Maybe I'll use my Audigy 2ZS as a test subject 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 For clarification on the opamp model number from national semiconductor, it's the LM4562MASOIC NARROW, right?


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *AngryGuy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I want to get an Xtrememusic and try this mod out but I am nervous about soldering because I am terrible at it. 

 Maybe I'll use my Audigy 2ZS as a test subject 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 For clarification on the opamp model number from national semiconductor, it's the LM4562MA SOIC NARROW, right?_

 

Yes, the number is LM4562MA. The other one is the DIP8 version which is much bigger and require a Browndog adaptor to work. Yes, use the Audigy as your test subject! But you'll be more than happy with the X-Fi. They did a much better job on the drivers and software aspect of it, and it doesn't resample anymore. The X-Fi is a good product, and I used to be a Creative basher but now they do an excellent job.


----------



## Soymilk

im not sure about terminology like opamps and stuff like that, but i was wondering, aside from cleaner sound, does this mod increase the amount of current that the card can put out, or is it strictly a mod to increase the quality of the sound that it puts out?


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Soymilk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_im not sure about terminology like opamps and stuff like that, but i was wondering, aside from cleaner sound, does this mod increase the amount of current that the card can put out, or is it strictly a mod to increase the quality of the sound that it puts out?_

 

sound quality. although it does use a larger power supply capacitor so it might also help deliver more current. you'll still need an amp or maybe just a dedicated buffer to drive most full-sized headphones. the card can directly drive the AKG K701, but it's clearly not getting enough current so dynamics suffers.


----------



## mobayrasta

This thread is so killing me. I can't wait to see the update when the parts get to you and you recap the card. You are crazy cool for doing this for me. Thanks!


----------



## Soymilk

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cotdt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_sound quality. although it does use a larger power supply capacitor so it might also help deliver more current. you'll still need an amp or maybe just a dedicated buffer to drive most full-sized headphones. the card can directly drive the AKG K701, but it's clearly not getting enough current so dynamics suffers._

 

kinda off topic, but what's a dedicated buffer?


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Soymilk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_kinda off topic, but what's a dedicated buffer?_

 

Amps increase the voltage, but for headphones this is almost never needed. Portable sources already have enough voltage swing for almost any headphone, and sound cards usually have double that. What is needed is not amplification (more volume), but more current delivery(more oomph and dynamics). While many sound cards already have a built-in buffer, they are weak compared to the buffers in amps. A dedicated current buffer is what is needed. I don't know any companies that sell them, though. If they did, I would definately buy one.


----------



## AngryGuy

cotdt, how does running the modded X-Fi alone compare with your modded Zhaolu? Obviously putting the Zapfilter in the Zhaolu costs quite a bit of money so I'm curious about what you think. 

 Also, I ordered my Xtrememusic and all the parts for this mod so I look forward to trying it out in a week or so. However, could you possibly go into a little more detail about how you used the ERS paper because I have never used any before and I'm a little confused about how you have placed it on the soundcard. If I am understanding right you used part of a mousepad placed on the backside of the soundcard and then put ERS (adhesive?) paper on top of it. In a regular case setup this might work but for me my motherboard is upside down in my case and so unless you are adhering the mousepad to the sound card in some way this won't work for me. Also some clarification on how it is on top of the card would be helpful too. Sorry, I'm sure it's really simple but I'm just not getting it fully.


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *AngryGuy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_cotdt, how does running the modded X-Fi alone compare with your modded Zhaolu? Obviously putting the Zapfilter in the Zhaolu costs quite a bit of money so I'm curious about what you think. 

 Also, I ordered my Xtrememusic and all the parts for this mod so I look forward to trying it out in a week or so. However, could you possibly go into a little more detail about how you used the ERS paper because I have never used any before and I'm a little confused about how you have placed it on the soundcard. If I am understanding right you used part of a mousepad placed on the backside of the soundcard and then put ERS (adhesive?) paper on top of it. In a regular case setup this might work but for me my motherboard is upside down in my case and so unless you are adhering the mousepad to the sound card in some way this won't work for me. Also some clarification on how it is on top of the card would be helpful too. Sorry, I'm sure it's really simple but I'm just not getting it fully._

 


 I'm adhering the mousepad onto the back of the X-Fi using 3M spray glue, but used tape while I was still testing the mods. Basically you want the shielding to be between any potential sources of EMI/RFI and your sound card. The brute force way to do this is to shield both the front and the backside of the card. It's strange because I used to be able to hear this radio station from my amplifier, but I applied a bunch of ERS paper and it was gone. This made me a beleiver, even though a lot of the ERS paper stuff sounded like voodoo before I started using it.

 As far as the Zapfiltered Zhaolu, nothing I've heard has beaten it. It's hard to compare it to the hotrodded X-Fi, because the sound is completely different. The main difference is that the Zapfilter has more weight to the tones, and it is more dynamic than any opamp-based DAC. It also has a wider soundstage than any other DAC by quite a margin, and very detailed lows, mids, highs. It has no weaknesses at all, but this is also what people said about the Benchmark when it first came out. Maybe one day an even better DAC would come along and show weaknesses, but it's hard for me to imagine right now. One DAC that people rave about is the EMM Labs, and I've never heard it but it's a candidate for the ultimate DAC since it has propietary processing. I would love to hear that one and compare it against my modded Zhaolu.

 I like the modded X-Fi because it sounds really good already, making external DACs unneccesary. Even getting a high-end DAC would merely be something different tonally but not better. And besides, the X-Fi has 7.1 surround sound and can do recording.


----------



## GameBlaster

cotdt , can you supply us a small details about hotrodding the breakbox of X-Fi Elite Pro since the breakbox has 1/4 headphones-jack . .


----------



## Pm@c

Man its killing me that I have to wait another month and a half to do this mod, since the house I am in right now cant handle the power of a soldering iron. Damn... I really wanna do this.


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GameBlaster* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_cotdt , can you supply us a small details about hotrodding the breakbox of X-Fi Elite Pro since the breakbox has 1/4 headphones-jack . . 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I think there is a preamp/headphone amp in there. Personally I wouldn't use it because a dedicated preamp would be better. I looked at the volume pots and they are so tiny. There looks to be just too many components that need modding, and even then a dedicated component would still be better. The Elite Pro is an amazing sound card and I wish they would sell it as a standalone without the breakout box, for a cheaper price.

 But if you still want to mod it, replace all the opamps in there with LM4562.


----------



## Soymilk

hmm... how much of a difference is there between the cs4382 DAC in the xtrememusic etc vs the cs4398 in the elite pro? and is there any difference between the xtrememusic etc that would matter?

 also, for the option of getting different caps and replacing all of the caps on the soundcard, am i interpreting this wrong or do you mean replace all 20+ capacitors on the soundcard? (unless i'm stupid and am thinking of the wrong thing as capacitors)


----------



## AngryGuy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cotdt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm adhering the mousepad onto the back of the X-Fi using 3M spray glue, but used tape while I was still testing the mods. Basically you want the shielding to be between any potential sources of EMI/RFI and your sound card. The brute force way to do this is to shield both the front and the backside of the card. It's strange because I used to be able to hear this radio station from my amplifier, but I applied a bunch of ERS paper and it was gone. This made me a beleiver, even though a lot of the ERS paper stuff sounded like voodoo before I started using it._

 

I just have one more question for you about the ERS paper, and that is about how you placed it on the top of the card (on the DAC/opamp). I noticed in the picture of the Blackgate (which isn't loading for me right now) that it looks like just the ERS paper and I can't spot any insulation that you used, or at least none as big as a piece of a mouse pad. Did you use any on that side of the card? I also notice that you glued the Blackgate to the ERS.

 Thanks for my answering questions and for the tutorial, I'm really looking forward to it


----------



## GameBlaster

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cotdt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think there is a preamp/headphone amp in there. Personally I wouldn't use it because a dedicated preamp would be better. I looked at the volume pots and they are so tiny. There looks to be just too many components that need modding, and even then a dedicated component would still be better. The Elite Pro is an amazing sound card and I wish they would sell it as a standalone without the breakout box, for a cheaper price.

 But if you still want to mod it, replace all the opamps in there with LM4562._

 

The DAC in the breakbox is CS4392 and it is not amplified despite of this dedicated DAC for 1/4 Jack and I think the used opamp for it is worse
 if I replace the opamp do I need a remove or insert any capacitor like what is done in moding the card, What should I take care of when moding the breakbox?


----------



## RichyRich

Would it be possible to change the dac chip to a CS4398 on the extreme or is this not possible somehow?

 EDIT:had a look at data sheet and it is not possible as pin layout is different.

 Is there a better dac chip with same pin layout?


----------



## Soymilk

the elite pro already has the cs4398. unless you're talking about an upgrade for the xtrememusic that doesnt cost as much.


----------



## Ice Max

Does this fix the snap/crackle/pop issue


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GameBlaster* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The DAC in the breakbox is CS4392 and it is not amplified despite of this dedicated DAC for 1/4 Jack and I think the used opamp for it is worse
 if I replace the opamp do I need a remove or insert any capacitor like what is done in moding the card, What should I take care of when moding the breakbox? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

really? so i guess the breakout box is much different from the 5.25" I/O bay version. Can you take pictures of the internals?


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *AngryGuy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just have one more question for you about the ERS paper, and that is about how you placed it on the top of the card (on the DAC/opamp). I noticed in the picture of the Blackgate (which isn't loading for me right now) that it looks like just the ERS paper and I can't spot any insulation that you used, or at least none as big as a piece of a mouse pad. Did you use any on that side of the card? I also notice that you glued the Blackgate to the ERS._

 

I didn't use any insulation because the DAC chip is not conductive. Ditto for the DSP, although on the newer version the DSP has a heatsink on it. You can do it whatever way you like, I don't really think it matters.


----------



## Gilly

Thats one nice looking mod you done there!

 The capacitor shorting method, could you not remove them and short the connectors with wire or solder? ive never left a component in then soldered the connections up, made it a right arse to take it out 

 And the thing that Germanium said about the DC upflow is not to be concerned about right? I am looking for an amp eventually, but for now, running the HD595 straight into the back of the card with this mod is not gonna blow my ears out or damage the cans with this DC flow problem is it?

 And! I take it this mod is as good or better than an external DAC via USB? or is it still behind that in SQ?

 Cheers!


----------



## Soymilk

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Soymilk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_hmm... how much of a difference is there between the cs4382 DAC in the xtrememusic etc vs the cs4398 in the elite pro? and is there any difference between the xtrememusic etc that would matter?

 also, for the option of getting different caps and replacing all of the caps on the soundcard, am i interpreting this wrong or do you mean replace all 20+ capacitors on the soundcard? (unless i'm stupid and am thinking of the wrong thing as capacitors)_

 

quoted my question cuz it got no attention


----------



## aris

bedtime so soon? darn


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Soymilk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_hmm... how much of a difference is there between the cs4382 DAC in the xtrememusic etc vs the cs4398 in the elite pro? and is there any difference between the xtrememusic etc that would matter?

 also, for the option of getting different caps and replacing all of the caps on the soundcard, am i interpreting this wrong or do you mean replace all 20+ capacitors on the soundcard? (unless i'm stupid and am thinking of the wrong thing as capacitors)_

 

you're going to have to hear them for yourself, because no one has ever modded an Elite Pro that i know of. however, there are some modded Zhaolu's with CS4398 and LM4562s and it should sound the same.

 Yes, you can replace all the Jamicon capacitors. There are probably 20-30 on the board but half of them are coupling capacitors which you want to short anyway. I beleive you short almost a dozen capacitors if you do the surround channels and certain others, so in reality you're only replacing a dozen or so capacitors. This is entirely optional anyway, it doesn't affect sound quality. Personally, I would only replace the larger capacitors.


----------



## DSlayerZX

I have a question. I would like to try out the mode, but afraid to do so my self

 PS: I already screwed up pretty badly while moding my Deck Legend Keyboard

 A 160 dollar keyboard 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 So currently, I am not so confident toward my soldering skill 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





 So, here is the biggest question, would anyone do this for me? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I will pay for the shipping the component and even for the moding job as long as they are in a reasonable price. Thank you


----------



## soloz2

I am seriously considering picking up an extra x-fi card or two, modding them and then selling on other forums that are not quite as into DIY then here. Regardless of if I do that I plan to mod my x-fi. I just have to look into the budget to see if I can do it this month or if I need to wait till next month. I already have the op-amps on order 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I want to see how the analogue out sounds compared to the digital out to either my upgraded Zhaolu 1.3 or my Beresford MKIII. If I like the analogue out better I'll skip the external DAC altogether... but if I still like one or the other DACs better then I'll look into upgrading the digital out.


----------



## Nick63

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cotdt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_To add to that, for digital you want to do a different set of mods. This is taken from Empirical Audio's website for the E-MU but it applies to any sound card including the X-Fi:

 Digital Sound Card Mods
 ===================================
 This E-MU PCI card has several opportunities to improve the S/PDIF out, including reducing the output voltage (3X the spec), improving power delivery and precisely matching to 75 ohms. After the mod is installed, the S/PDIF output is 500mV peak-to-peak. The impedance is perfectly matched to 75 ohms and the risetime is an unprecedented 5 nsec, allowing use of very short S/PDIF cables. The manufacturer cannot design it this way because they would likely fail emissions testing. However, most audiophiles are expected to use high-quality S/PDIF cables, so the emissions should not be an issue.

 S/PDIF mod Details:

 1. Change pulse transformer
 2. Impedance match to 75 ohms
 3. Add power decoupling to decoder and driver chips
 4. Improve digital coupling caps
 5. Remove various filter components_

 

Would these S/PDIF mods be worthwhile? Has anyone done these and reported on the outcome?


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Nick63* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Would these S/PDIF mods be worthwhile? Has anyone done these and reported on the outcome?_

 

I'm pretty sure it would make a difference, but personally for digital I would use an I2S connection. Most modern DACs can be modified to accept I2S. This would be good for minimizing jitter. This is only worth it if the DAC was very high-end. Most budget external DACs would probably be beaten by a analog-modded X-Fi.


----------



## Nick63

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cotdt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm pretty sure it would make a difference, but personally for digital I would use an I2S connection. Most modern DACs can be modified to accept I2S. This would be good for minimizing jitter. This is only worth it if the DAC was very high-end. Most budget external DACs would probably be beaten by a analog-modded X-Fi._

 

How would you get I2S out of a computer and which sub $1000 dacs will already accept it?


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Nick63* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How would you get I2S out of a computer and which sub $1000 dacs will already accept it?_

 

For output, dddac.de has instructions on making a USB-to-I2S convertor, and empirical audio also has several solutions for it.

 As far as DACs go, most of them can be modified to accept I2S, and you can look at schematics provided by the DAC chip company.

 the non-DIY solution is to wait a few years for I2S to become more standard, but sadly it might not ever happen.


----------



## droopy1592

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Be aware that the card puts out about 30millivolt D.C. with stock op amp at output with the coupling caps shorted. This may not seem like a lot & in most cases its not but if you have D.C. coupled amps upstream without D.C. offset compensation you can cause the amp to over heat & possably damage you amp & speakers.

 You will also notice some popping sounds as the computer is booting up & shutting down.

 That said the mod is really worth it especially if you have D.C. coupled amps that have D.C. offset protection. I'v done this to mine over a year ago & all my amps are D.C. coupled but with D.C. offset protection in my preamp. The sound is as good or better than my SACD player (SCD222ES)._

 


 Is it necessary to short the caps or can I leave them be and just change the filtering cap and the op amp and still get great sound? I already have a problem with a kick at boot up and I don't want it getting any louder.


 got the parts on order and I should have them within a week. Ack, haven't soldered in almost 10 years.


----------



## soloz2

you can leave them alone and see how you like it w/ just the op-amp change. If you are really concerned you could get some better caps and swap them out.

 or even if you just use a solder bridge to sort them you can try it easily shorted and unshorted. To unshort again just clean up the solder bridge


----------



## droopy1592

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *soloz2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_you can leave them alone and see how you like it w/ just the op-amp change. If you are really concerned you could get some better caps and swap them out.

 or even if you just use a solder bridge to sort them you can try it easily shorted and unshorted. To unshort again just clean up the solder bridge_

 

Good Idea about the solder bridge. I'm glad I thought of it.


----------



## Gilly

you mention replacing the shorted caps, i take it that caps of any grade will degrade the audio, so if you have DC isolated stuff your fine to short it, and will sound best shorted?

 If i want to replace them, are blackgates of the same type as the power filter fine, just with a lower rating? i cant take my card out right now to look


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Gilly* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_you mention replacing the shorted caps, i take it that caps of any grade will degrade the audio, so if you have DC isolated stuff your fine to short it, and will sound best shorted?

 If i want to replace them, are blackgates of the same type as the power filter fine, just with a lower rating? i cant take my card out right now to look _

 

blackgates are not high enough quality as output filter caps. i recommend ~3uF teflon capacitors, or at the very least film capacitors like mundorf supreme. the best for sound quality is to not have the capacitor at all.


----------



## sonance

How hard would it be to swap out the DAC chips on the X-Fi Xtreme Music?
 How good are the DACs and OpAmps on the Elite Pro by comparison?


----------



## Gilly

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sonance* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How hard would it be to swap out the DAC chips on the X-Fi Xtreme Music?
 How good are the DACs and OpAmps on the Elite Pro by comparison?_

 

i think someone has said that the pin outs on the 2 dacs are not identical, so you cant replace the one on the xtreme music with the one on the elite pro.

 And i guess i better risk the cap shorting/ removal. I get the popping problem on the breakout box


----------



## cotdt

the x-fi elite pro has a better DAC chip and would sound fuller and weightier, but the analog stage is what makes the greatest difference in sound.


----------



## Liver

From what I gather I have labeled this pic
 The OpAmp to replaced, and the three surrounds below it. The Power Filter Cap, and the CS4398s have been labeled. But what capacitors to short?


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Liver* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_From what I gather I have labeled this pic
 The OpAmp to replaced, and the three surrounds below it. The Power Filter Cap, and the CS4398s have been labeled. But what capacitors to short?




_

 

you want to short the 16 capacitors closest to each of the 4 opamps.


----------



## Soymilk

i have another question!

 i've been reading around, and i saw that for the x-fi xtrememusic, while cmss3d is enabled, the SQ takes a noticeable hit. does this mod fix that, or does SQ still suffer while it's on?


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Soymilk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i have another question!

 i've been reading around, and i saw that for the x-fi xtrememusic, while cmss3d is enabled, the SQ takes a noticeable hit. does this mod fix that, or does SQ still suffer while it's on?_

 

it will still suffer, because the problem is in the digital domain. the best way to fix it is to turn it off =).


----------



## gates_2

never got a reply from jude about the possibility of a group buy. If anyone is interested in splitting some ERS paper, let me know. I'm ordering a sheet from parts connection on monday. I'll post pics of my elite pro breakout very soon.


----------



## mobayrasta

cotdt can you post a pic of the completed card with all opamps changed and the recap.


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mobayrasta* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_cotdt can you post a pic of the completed card with all opamps changed and the recap. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

i put ERS paper on them so you can't see anything anymore! it's no longer naked!


----------



## bDerek

Attached in the pdf is the output circuit that I have traced on an X-Fi Platinum. I cannot see any of the 22uF electrolytic caps in the ouput at all but have traced some connected to +5v and -5v rails. Replacing the op amps are a great idea but could more be done replacing the transistors Q2,Q3,Q4,Q5 that are all marked J1X on the front outputs and on the other outputs a different set of transistors are used marked O2NR. Anyone know what who makes the J1X and O2NR transistors?


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bDerek* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Attached in the pdf is the output circuit that I have traced on an X-Fi Platinum. I cannot see any of the 22uF electrolytic caps in the ouput at all but have traced some connected to +5v and -5v rails. Replacing the op amps are a great idea but could more be done replacing the transistors Q2,Q3,Q4,Q5 that are all marked J1X on the front outputs and on the other outputs a different set of transistors are used marked O2NR. Anyone know what who makes the J1X and O2NR transistors?_

 

amazing work! you sure entered head-fi with a bang. on the newer X-Fi cards, the transistors are J1(infinity) instead of J1X and O2N- instead of 02NR. any idea what they can be replaced with?


----------



## ]|[ GorE

Those capacitors dont block DC ! They are connected to the +5 and -5V lines and are meant as current reservoirs. The reason there are 4 for each opamp is to keep the capacitors impedance low . I would add a higher valued cap in parallel to the existing caps,not short them.

 And,instead of doing such a hokey mod,i would look up the datasheets of the dac and add the capacitors Creative has left out.


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *]|[ GorE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Those capacitors dont block DC ! They are connected to the +5 and -5V lines and are meant as current reservoirs. The reason there are 4 for each opamp is to keep the capacitors impedance low . I would add a higher valued cap in parallel to the existing caps,not short them.

 And,instead of doing such a hokey mod,i would look up the datasheets of the dac and add the capacitors Creative has left out._

 

hmmmz... you sure? i'll trace the board and see...

 Edit: Updated about the DC-coupling caps. I traced the opamp outputs and the 22uF are not part of the DC-coupling after all. Apparently, the X-Fi does things different from other sound cards. I still prefer the sound with those 22uF caps shorted though.


----------



## DSlayerZX

hmmm interesting, the from what you guys are saying, is it better not the short them out, since they might cause damage to the chips?


----------



## ]|[ GorE

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DSlayerZX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_hmmm interesting, the from what you guys are saying, is it better not the short them out, since they might cause damage to the chips? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

No damage will be caused to any chips;we aren't sure what is the exact use of those 22uF caps . If they are reservoir/decoupling caps for the V+ and V- of the opamps and shorting them seems to improve the sound(according to the OP),then perhaps the Jamicons should be replaced with lower ESR caps.


----------



## Soymilk

quick question:

 is this one hotrod-able? it's the xtremegamer.

http://www.buy.com/prod/creative-lab...203138686.html

 just want to make sure before i get one and figure out it's one of the new low-end x-fi's that are basically the high end audigy 2's.


----------



## DSlayerZX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Soymilk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_quick question:

 is this one hotrod-able? it's the xtremegamer.

http://www.buy.com/prod/creative-lab...203138686.html

 just want to make sure before i get one and figure out it's one of the new low-end x-fi's that are basically the high end audigy 2's._

 

From the looks of it, I believe that they are the same. the only difference is that

 the extreme gamer does not have a connection to the front panel

 that's probably where the reduction of price came from


----------



## RichyRich

Just finished the mod.I just changed opamp and cap to blackgate for now.Might try other mods later on.

 No pops or crackles on start up.

 Initial first,short listen as haven't got time at the mo but sounds like much more zip and sparkle to the music, tighter bass and bigger sound stage.Will do some more listening later when have some more time time but I'm no golden ear mind.

 Well worth doing.

 Thanks!! cotdt its much appreciated.


----------



## Gilly

just for those wanting samples... $20 postage to the UK! so im gonna pic up the opamp in the UK, it will be far cheaper! 

 I will also replace the caps you are on about, i would rather play safe. Hope to have this mod done in 2 weeks or so, part dependant of course


----------



## Soymilk

any more opinions? the xtremegamer in question is a smaller card than the xtrememusic; it's the size of the xtremeaudio. does anyone know for sure if it has the x-fi audio processor or not? i don't think that the lack of a connector to the front panel is enough for that much of a size difference for the pcb


----------



## soloz2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Soymilk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_any more opinions? the xtremegamer in question is a smaller card than the xtrememusic; it's the size of the xtremeaudio. does anyone know for sure if it has the x-fi audio processor or not? i don't think that the lack of a connector to the front panel is enough for that much of a size difference for the pcb 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

lol... no, it doesn't have the x-fi processor... but it's got the x-fi name!

 yes, it has an x-fi sound processor. It's got all the critical parts of the x-fi cards including X-RAM


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RichyRich* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just finished the mod.I just changed opamp and cap to blackgate for now.Might try other mods later on.

 No pops or crackles on start up.

 Initial first,short listen as haven't got time at the mo but sounds like much more zip and sparkle to the music, tighter bass and bigger sound stage.Will do some more listening later when have some more time time but I'm no golden ear mind.

 Well worth doing.

 Thanks!! cotdt its much appreciated._

 

Congrats! You are a brave man and now your name goes in the hall of fame! Enjoy your unique sound card.


----------



## RichB

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *]|[ GorE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Those capacitors dont block DC ! They are connected to the +5 and -5V lines and are meant as current reservoirs. The reason there are 4 for each opamp is to keep the capacitors impedance low . I would add a higher valued cap in parallel to the existing caps,not short them.

 And,instead of doing such a hokey mod,i would look up the datasheets of the dac and add the capacitors Creative has left out._

 

I put a DVM on these caps and I am reading 2.45 volts DC. It seems best not to short them, right?

 - Rich


----------



## Soymilk

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *soloz2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_lol... no, it doesn't have the x-fi processor... but it's got the x-fi name!

 yes, it has an x-fi sound processor. It's got all the critical parts of the x-fi cards including X-RAM_

 

wait... what? are you poking at my question? cuz if you didn't know, the x-fi xtreme audio has the x-fi name, but doesn't actually have the x-fi processor. just wanted to check if the x-fi xtreme gamer had it or not too, since it can be had for pretty cheap right now.


----------



## soloz2

well I was poking fun of your question, but yes it does have the x-fi sound processor



 I plan to do this mod... just want to wait a bit and make sure everything is all figured out


----------



## gates_2

OK- got my samples in from nat. semi


 Swapped it in to my elite pro
 ...


 OMG


 ....


 A completely refined, organic sound. Nothing I've ever even heard before. Listened to some favorite recordings- heard things I never did before. Rachmaninoff piano concerto no. 2 with Van Cliburn and the CSO- WOW


 i dont' think words can describe the difference really. All I can say is everyone go out and buy this card right now:

http://www.amazon.com/Creative-Sound...4346422&sr=8-1

 $199 after rebate

 I haven't heard this mod on the lower models, but this AKM dac is really shining now. That old JRC wasn't doing it justice.

 And I haven't even gotten to the blackgates or ERS yet


----------



## droopy1592

I'm getting 3 op amp samples and only plan on replacing one.,.. so if anyone is interested....


----------



## ReTiCuLe

If you could be so kind to spare a free sample, I'd be delighted. If not, can you possibly link me to the exact page to order the LM4562 SOIC Sample? I found a page, but it has slightly different product listed.


----------



## ReTiCuLe

Nvm, I found the sample page, I must be blind LOL. I miss my soldering days soo much, I can't wait to get my hands on this puppy.


----------



## ReTiCuLe

Anyone know how much the shipping is for these samples?


----------



## AngryGuy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ReTiCuLe* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anyone know how much the shipping is for these samples?_

 

They charged me $9 to ship 3 of them to CA.

 It took a few days after I ordered for them to ship them out but they shipped it with 2nd day air.


----------



## 003

*[size=xx-large]THE X-FI CARDS THAT SHOULD BE AVOIDED:[/size]*
 -X-Fi XtremeAudio
 -X-Fi XtremeGamer
 -Any of the low-profile X-Fis

*[size=x-large]THE GOOD ONES TO GET:[/size]*
 X-Fi Elite Pro
 X-Fi Fatal1ty FPS
 X-Fi Platinum
 X-Fi XtremeMusic (best value)

*[size=x-large]ONES I AM UNSURE ABOUT:[/size]*
 X-Fi XtremeGamer Fatal1ty Professional Series
 This is one of the new ones. The other new ones are the XtremeAudio and XtremeGamer, which are both low profile. The low profile models do not support digital out (not easily, anyway), and they use lower quality components. The XtremeGamer Fatal1ty Professional Series is also new, but it is not low profile. If it is based on the same model as the good ones, it would be OK, but I don't know if it is. So it would be best to just avoid it.


----------



## ReTiCuLe

Anyone found a site that takes Paypal for the Blackgate 2200uF 16V?
 The only site I found is OOS.

 P.S. Thanks for the headsup AngryGuy, I ordered 3.


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ReTiCuLe* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anyone found a site that takes Paypal for the Blackgate 2200uF 16V?
 The only site I found is OOS.

 P.S. Thanks for the headsup AngryGuy, I ordered 3._

 

partsconnexion.com accepts paypal. i think percy audio does also.


----------



## ReTiCuLe

cool, I guess I'll givem a call tomorrow and order two. How about the ESR Paper, any place local in NYC or Online that takes paypal that I can grab some at?


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ReTiCuLe* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_cool, I guess I'll givem a call tomorrow and order two. How about the ESR Paper, any place local in NYC or Online that takes paypal that I can grab some at?_

 

those same two places both sell ERS paper as well.


----------



## ReTiCuLe

cotdt, thanks bud 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. I would post here more often, it's just I'm rather new to the Audio scene. I got my first pair of AT A700's, due to the recommendations here love the site.


----------



## kamal007

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ReTiCuLe* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_cotdt, thanks bud 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. I would post here more often, it's just I'm rather new to the Audio scene. I got my first pair of AT A700's, due to the recommendations here love the site._

 

welcome here..if ure good enough u can try and mod the xfi too


----------



## Soymilk

if you're handy with a soldering iron, you should be good enough 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 for the list of cards to avoid, the xtreme gamer is the model that is directly replacing the xtreme music; the xtreme music is no longer in production. it also has the x-fi audio processor (i did some more looking around to make sure of this). i can't really speak for the statement on lower quality components though. actually, from the head-fi point of view, where people want the digital out and such, the xtreme gamer would be one to avoid since i dont think it has it. the difference between the xtreme gamer and xtrememusic is the fewer outputs on the xtreme gamer and the lower profile of the xtreme gamer.


----------



## ReTiCuLe

Cool. I have the Xtreme Music. I've also been soldering PSX's and such since 2001, this shouldn't be too hard.


----------



## Soymilk

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ReTiCuLe* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Cool. I have the Xtreme Music. I've also been soldering PSX's and such since 2001, this shouldn't be too hard._

 

yeah, it doesnt look hard. take out an opamp, solder in an opamp. take out a capacitor, put in a capacitor.


----------



## janderclander14

Hi,

 I have changed the full set of op-amps from my X-fi (no more mods at the moment). 

 My impressions:

 - Treble is cleary improved. The digital sound is gone and the sound is much more pleasant. I can raise the volume without obtaining harsh highs.

 - Bass is tighter and with more detail.

 - With multichannel music the singer IS in the room. Soundstage is also more deep and imaging more wide.

 - The outputs can reasonabely drive directly my dt990, maintaining the characteristics described. The improvement in this aspect with respect to the unamped output of the stock x-fi is enourmous. However, I suppose that an external amp is always needed for a 250 ohms cans.

 I have approximately traced the correspondence between surround op-amps and the two physical tri-pole jack outputs. From up to down (with respect to the first pic in the first post):

 - Upper surround op-amp corresponds to one side surround and one back surround (not sure if it is left or right). All go to the second line out.

 - Mid surround op-amp correspons to the other side surround (second line-out) and center/or sub (third line-out).

 - Lower surround op-amp correspons to the other back surround and the center/or sub (complementarily to the previous one). All go to the third line-out

 The conclusion is that, even with a 5.1 setup, you have to change all 4 op-amps due to the ad-hoc configuration.

 I'm going to try further mods. I have ordered the blackgate and the ERS paper. 

 With respect to the op-amp caps, I preffer not to sort them but replace the full set of 16 caps with higher value ones. 

 Which cap value do you recommend (that can fit in the available room)?

 As they seem to provide current and not transport signal, does high quality cap is really needed in this case (I suppose exchanging 16 blackgates will be quite expensive)? Do standard nichicons may be enough?

 Thanks again to cotdt for this awesome thread!


----------



## RichyRich

Quote"just for those wanting samples... $20 postage to the UK! so im gonna pic up the opamp in the UK, it will be far cheaper!"

 Gilly,where did you try and order from?

 I ordered 3 samples from nat semi conductor and it was only $9 postage.
 They sent them from Germany.
 Very well packaged too.


----------



## StevieDvd

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Soymilk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_if you're handy with a soldering iron, you should be good enough 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 for the list of cards to avoid, the xtreme gamer is the model that is directly replacing the xtreme music; the xtreme music is no longer in production. it also has the x-fi audio processor (i did some more looking around to make sure of this). i can't really speak for the statement on lower quality components though. actually, from the head-fi point of view, where people want the digital out and such, the xtreme gamer would be one to avoid since i dont think it has it. the difference between the xtreme gamer and xtrememusic is the fewer outputs on the xtreme gamer and the lower profile of the xtreme gamer._

 

Oddly enough I just bought the X-fi low profile gamer to use the optical out to feed my Stello DA100. It has asio and bit perfect so just the job. I assume all the modding here is for the analogue side. The digital port is a mini one that can be optical, which allowed me to keep my expensive cable too.

 Can't hear a difference between it and my airport express and I'm trusting that the bit perfect setting is as it states.


----------



## Gilly

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RichyRich* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Quote"just for those wanting samples... $20 postage to the UK! so im gonna pic up the opamp in the UK, it will be far cheaper!"

 Gilly,where did you try and order from?

 I ordered 3 samples from nat semi conductor and it was only $9 postage.
 They sent them from Germany.
 Very well packaged too._

 

i tried to get them direct from national semiconductor, they wanted about $19.50 postage, i might as well order them from here, there about £4 or summat


----------



## Liver

*Before*

 Testing chain: External loopback (line-out - line-in)
 Sampling mode: 24-bit, 96 kHz

 Summary
 Frequency response (from 40 Hz to 15 kHz), dB: +0.01, -0.09Excellent
 Noise level, dB (A): -112.8Excellent
 Dynamic range, dB (A): 112.5Excellent
 THD, %: 0.0006Excellent
 IMD + Noise, %: 0.0012Excellent
 Stereo crosstalk, dB: -110.5Excellent
 IMD at 10 kHz, %: 0.0012Excellent

 General performance: Excellent

*After mod, change opamp, ERS paper, new capacitor*

 Testing chain: External loopback (line-out - line-in)
 Sampling mode: 24-bit, 96 kHz

 Summary
 Frequency response (from 40 Hz to 15 kHz), dB: +0.01, -0.09Excellent
 Noise level, dB (A): -113.1Excellent
 Dynamic range, dB (A): 112.9Excellent
 THD, %: 0.0006Excellent
 IMD + Noise, %: 0.0011Excellent
 Stereo crosstalk, dB: -110.9Excellent
 IMD at 10 kHz, %: 0.0012Excellent

 General performance: Excellent


----------



## Gilly

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Liver* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*Before*

 Testing chain: External loopback (line-out - line-in)
 Sampling mode: 24-bit, 96 kHz

 Summary
 Frequency response (from 40 Hz to 15 kHz), dB: +0.01, -0.09Excellent
 Noise level, dB (A): -112.8Excellent
 Dynamic range, dB (A): 112.5Excellent
 THD, %: 0.0006Excellent
 IMD + Noise, %: 0.0012Excellent
 Stereo crosstalk, dB: -110.5Excellent
 IMD at 10 kHz, %: 0.0012Excellent

 General performance: Excellent

*After mod, change opamp, ERS paper, new capacitor*

 Testing chain: External loopback (line-out - line-in)
 Sampling mode: 24-bit, 96 kHz

 Summary
 Frequency response (from 40 Hz to 15 kHz), dB: +0.01, -0.09Excellent
 Noise level, dB (A): -113.1Excellent
 Dynamic range, dB (A): 112.9Excellent
 THD, %: 0.0006Excellent
 IMD + Noise, %: 0.0011Excellent
 Stereo crosstalk, dB: -110.9Excellent
 IMD at 10 kHz, %: 0.0012Excellent

 General performance: Excellent_

 

very slight differences in spec, what about you opinion on audible?


----------



## janderclander14

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Liver* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*Before*

 Testing chain: External loopback (line-out - line-in)
 Sampling mode: 24-bit, 96 kHz

 Summary
 Frequency response (from 40 Hz to 15 kHz), dB: +0.01, -0.09Excellent
 Noise level, dB (A): -112.8Excellent
 Dynamic range, dB (A): 112.5Excellent
 THD, %: 0.0006Excellent
 IMD + Noise, %: 0.0012Excellent
 Stereo crosstalk, dB: -110.5Excellent
 IMD at 10 kHz, %: 0.0012Excellent

 General performance: Excellent

*After mod, change opamp, ERS paper, new capacitor*

 Testing chain: External loopback (line-out - line-in)
 Sampling mode: 24-bit, 96 kHz

 Summary
 Frequency response (from 40 Hz to 15 kHz), dB: +0.01, -0.09Excellent
 Noise level, dB (A): -113.1Excellent
 Dynamic range, dB (A): 112.9Excellent
 THD, %: 0.0006Excellent
 IMD + Noise, %: 0.0011Excellent
 Stereo crosstalk, dB: -110.9Excellent
 IMD at 10 kHz, %: 0.0012Excellent

 General performance: Excellent_

 

Maybe this is the limit of the x-fi recording capabilities ?


----------



## Henmyr

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Gilly* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i tried to get them direct from national semiconductor, they wanted about $19.50 postage, i might as well order them from here, there about £4 or summat_

 

I think that they (National) have increased the price due to high demand. I got the order confirmation March 13, and payed $9 for 3 samples and delivery to Sweden.


----------



## gates_2

hmm- what card was it that you took those specs? Did you change the recording op-amp as well, or just the output opamp?


----------



## db597

I'm going to mod mine. But going easy - just changing the opamps for the LM4562 and nothing else. It's my first time at soldering, but I'm up for the challenge. Just 2 questions for you experts:

 1. Does anyone know where to get the LM4562 in the UK?
 2. Is the conclusion that we don't short the 22uF caps now?

 Cheers.


----------



## Gilly

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *janderclander14* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 With respect to the op-amp caps, I preffer not to sort them but replace the full set of 16 caps with higher value ones. 

 Which cap value do you recommend (that can fit in the available room)?

 As they seem to provide current and not transport signal, does high quality cap is really needed in this case (I suppose exchanging 16 blackgates will be quite expensive)? Do standard nichicons may be enough?

 Thanks again to cotdt for this awesome thread!_

 

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showpo...9&postcount=89

 i asked almost the same quesion. although, i dont know if the same advice still applies?


----------



## Gilly

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *db597* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm going to mod mine. But going easy - just changing the opamps for the LM4562 and nothing else. It's my first time at soldering, but I'm up for the challenge. Just 2 questions for you experts:

 1. Does anyone know where to get the LM4562 in the UK?
 2. Is the conclusion that we don't short the 22uF caps now?

 Cheers._

 

1.

 Opamp:
http://catalog.digikey.com/scripts/p...me=LM4562MA-ND

 Power Filter Capactor:
http://www.hificollective.co.uk/comp...dard_type.html

 2.

 I think so


----------



## db597

Thanks a lot Gilly! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I had thought Digikey was a US site, but just saw a UK section. That really helped.


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *janderclander14* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Maybe this is the limit of the x-fi recording capabilities ?_

 

I think the limit might be the DAC itself in this case. For example, I expect a better DAC like the Elite Pro to score better. But this X-Fi already scores very well stock.


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Gilly* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showpo...9&postcount=89

 i asked almost the same quesion. although, i dont know if the same advice still applies?_

 

unfortunately, no one is sure what exactly these capacitors do, so there is no definitive answer. i know some DAC chip engineers at CS so maybe i can ask them when i get the chance. however, the card does sound a little better shorted. if they were "critical" then if you short them then they shouldn't work at all, or sound strange. to be safe, you can try 22uF 16V Blackgates in that position. if there is any improvement then let us know. if not, then all you lose is a few dollars. i suppose 22uF polypropellenes would be too big, but the actual value does not seem to be critical.


----------



## janderclander14

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cotdt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_unfortunately, no one is sure what exactly these capacitors do, so there is no definitive answer. i know some DAC chip engineers at CS so maybe i can ask them when i get the chance. however, the card does sound a little better shorted. if they were "critical" then if you short them then they shouldn't work at all, or sound strange. to be safe, you can try 22uF 16V Blackgates in that position. if there is any improvement then let us know. if not, then all you lose is a few dollars. i suppose 22uF polypropellenes would be too big, but the actual value does not seem to be critical._

 

A little more info about caps roles:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&#post10070526

 Cap modding for an Elite pro (sadly in japanese, but the pics may help):

http://www.geocities.jp/tag627/X-Fi.html


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *janderclander14* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_A little more info about caps roles:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&#post10070526_

 

"Anyway, I shorted out the capacitors for the front 2 channels using small pieces of wire between the capacitor pins. I would say that the sound was a bit brighter and sounded a bit more real - especially for vocals. I measured dc voltages of less than 1mV for both front channels (with no sound playing)."

 Very interesting, and in fact bclare's findings mirror mine exactly. Although the caps make the DAC more stable, they are not needed in this situation. Since capacitors degrade sound, they should be removed if they are not required. Manufacterers like Creative don't care about sound quality as much as a potential lawsuit where they could lose millions, and they have no idea what kind of equipment will be used with their card, so I can understand why they would want to play it safe. 

 Since 3 different X-Fi cards have had their caps shorted with no ill effects but in fact an improvement in sound quality, I would definately recommend shorting these caps.


----------



## Liver

I just modded the output opamp. I did not touch the input stage. Perhaps that is a source of distinct limitations.

 The card is an elite pro. All parameters were that same (bit perfect, with all audio "enhancements" off, and volume at 90%).

 I have listened to the card, before and after. The biggest changes for me was to plug my headphones directly into the card itself and not into the breakout box. Large difference between breakout box and direct out from sound card.

*[rant]*

 This is a nice card. I have not heard the uber expensive DAC or DAC / Amp combos, but I like the sound. I like the music it makes. 

 Perhaps this is due to the eilte pro's inherent quality to begin with? I think Creative has made a very very good product here. I do not think it is a trade off any more between gaming and audio fidelity (at least with Windows XP). From my perspective, get the elite pro and then use it with all bells and whistles for gaming and switch to audio creation mode for the audio fidelity.

 I keep wondering about all the questions here at headfi on what DAC or Amp to upgrade to (assuming upgrading from Xfi). I think this is a great card. Creative has made bad first impressions with a lot of the sound blaster line, but the elite pro is something else.

*[/rant]*

 I have to admit my own personal limitations. If the modded card and the stock card were to be A/B tested, I may (low probability) be able to tell the difference. Not being able to A/B test, I can not make a statement that it is that different. That is a personal limitation.

 While I was making the mod I fired up the integrated audio on the Bad Axe 2. It is the Intel HD audio. Now that was a huge difference from the modded elite pro and the integrated audio! My lord, I was modding as fast as I could to get away from that!


----------



## Gilly

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Liver* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just modded the output opamp. I did not touch the input stage. Perhaps that is a source of distinct limitations.

 The card is an elite pro. All parameters were that same (bit perfect, with all audio "enhancements" off, and volume at 90%).

 I have listened to the card, before and after. The biggest changes for me was to plug my headphones directly into the card itself and not into the breakout box. Large difference between breakout box and direct out from sound card.

*[rant]*

 This is a nice card. I have not heard the uber expensive DAC or DAC / Amp combos, but I like the sound. I like the music it makes. 

 Perhaps this is due to the eilte pro's inherent quality to begin with? I think Creative has made a very very good product here. I do not think it is a trade off any more between gaming and audio fidelity (at least with Windows XP). From my perspective, get the elite pro and then use it with all bells and whistles for gaming and switch to audio creation mode for the audio fidelity.

 I keep wondering about all the questions here at headfi on what DAC or Amp to upgrade to (assuming upgrading from Xfi). I think this is a great card. Creative has made bad first impressions with a lot of the sound blaster line, but the elite pro is something else.

*[/rant]*

 I have to admit my own personal limitations. If the modded card and the stock card were to be A/B tested, I may (low probability) be able to tell the difference. Not being able to A/B test, I can not make a statement that it is that different. That is a personal limitation.

 While I was making the mod I fired up the integrated audio on the Bad Axe 2. It is the Intel HD audio. Now that was a huge difference from the modded elite pro and the integrated audio! My lord, I was modding as fast as I could to get away from that!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

i agree, onboard is pants without an external dac etc.

 and tbh, your elite pro comes with some by all acounts amazing DAC's anyway. i think that you were "spoilt" with good quality before


----------



## db597

Can I ask why you chose a 2200uF standard Blackgate? Why not a 3300 or 4700uF? These are also available for 16V.


----------



## Gilly

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *db597* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Can I ask why you chose a 2200uF standard Blackgate? Why not a 3300 or 4700uF? These are also available for 16V._

 

probibly no benefit/ cost outlay.

 2200uF is a lot of capacitance, and its being fed DC power, which in theory should be relativly clean with modern switching transistors and vregs etc. 

 the massive HT amps normally have 2x 33000 uF capactiors running maybe 8x170w DIN or whatever, so 2200uF is already overkill imo


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *db597* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Can I ask why you chose a 2200uF standard Blackgate? Why not a 3300 or 4700uF? These are also available for 16V._

 

yes Gilly is right the 2200uF is already overkill.

 a 4700uF Blackgate would be enormous and cost more! the general practice is to use something that is 10x the original value. any more than that will probably not yield any improvement. most people use the card with an amp which has a ton of capacitance, so actually with an amp the original value of 220uF is already enough. However, Blackgates have much better specs than Jamicon so the capacitor should still be replaced. I just picked the larger value because for some headphones I don't use a dedicated amp.

 btw, there are other good choices for capacitor besides Blackgates, to those who care about every dollar in their wallet. Just be sure to not use too high voltage ratings, since electrolytic capacitors work best near their voltage rating. Thus we would use a 16V capacitor for 10-16V.


----------



## db597

Thanks a lot Gilly and cotdt. You've convinced me. I'll be upgrading the capacitor too.


----------



## ReTiCuLe

The U.S. Sites I emailed in this thread about purchasing ERS paper and a capacitor, gave no response yet :S. Can Radio-shack order this for me or possibly can I buy a similar Capacitor and ERS paper at Radioshack?

 Thanks,
 - ReT


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ReTiCuLe* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The U.S. Sites I emailed in this thread about purchasing ERS paper and a capacitor, gave no response yet :S. Can Radio-shack order this for me or possibly can I buy a similar Capacitor and ERS paper at Radioshack?

 Thanks,
 - ReT_

 

have you tried that canadian site? they respond within 24 hours usually...

 Now for the more crazy modders:
http://www.bursonaudio.com/Burson_HDAM_Module.htm


----------



## DSlayerZX

alright, I finish half of my mod....

 I only changed the OPamp

 waiting for the capacitor and ERS paper 

 the problem is.. right after I solder them in.... the sound is very small and it crack and pops 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Then after .... I test it three time, try to re solder the join every time....

 finally, after removing some excess solder, I finally got the sound fixed'

 wondering what cause it though

 ================================================== ==

 after I changed the OPamp, I found that the highs are much more clear, and seems like there is a little more sound stage
 well... the bass sounds little different.. but don't know how to describe it


----------



## cotdt

congrats! see that wasn't so hard


----------



## AngryGuy

I received my Xtrememusic today. I was expecting the opamp chip to come as well but it didn't so it looks like I have to wait a little longer to mod it. 

 For the best music settings with the Xtrememusic, I should just turn off all effects and put it on audio creation mode and turn on bit perfect playback, right? With this, there's no reason to use ASIO or any other settings through Foobar, is that correct?

 I hope I get my opamp tomorrow


----------



## DSlayerZX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cotdt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_congrats! see that wasn't so hard_

 

well.. yeah, besides the hour that I tried to solve the problem scare the crap out of me

 waiting for the second mod


----------



## droopy1592

Is the 2200uF blackgate polar?


----------



## gates_2

yes


----------



## db597

So do you line up the + on the blackgate to the white semi-circle on the X-Fi's PCB, or the unfilled semi-circle? Sorry, I'm not an electrical engineer...


----------



## ]|[ GorE

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RichB* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I put a DVM on these caps and I am reading 2.45 volts DC. It seems best not to short them, right?

 - Rich_

 

YEs,i too get a reading of 2.45V DC.The 5V output of the regulator is split to +/- 2.5V to power up the opamps (which is why i replaced the JRC with a AD8620);both work very well with low voltages.

 IMO,the JRC4556 is not a bad sounding opamp by any means,just slightly less detailed and airy and warmer.


----------



## db597

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *]|[ GorE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_why i replaced the JRC with a AD8620);both work very well with low voltages._

 

How does the AD8620 compare against the LM4562 suggested by cotdt? It seems to be a lot more expensive, but it's also more easily available.


----------



## ReTiCuLe

I was bored and had some old PSU's and a PS2 powersupply around and here's what I found.

 I found a fuhjyyu 2200uF 16v Capacitor two of them in my Antec PSU, that was in working condition till I tore it apart 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.

 I also found in my PS2 a 1100uF 16v Capacitor that looks clean, forgot the name, its black. Also I have the PS2 Shield that covers the motherboard, I wonder if I can cut it up and fit it to the X-Fi like ERS paper? 

 How's those Fuhjyyur for capacitors? Think that will do ?
http://www.fuhjyyu.com.tw/

 P.S. Wouldn't adheasive ERS Tape be better than using a whole sheet to cover the card?


----------



## Soymilk

from what i understand, the ERS stuff is conductive. so unless a) the ERS tape is non-conductive? or b) i'm not thinking what you're thinking, it wouldn't really make a difference since you'd need to have something in between anyways.


----------



## ]|[ GorE

I dont think the ERS paper helps in any way because i had made a THICK aluminium faraday cage for the card leading to no improvement subjectively/objectively.


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *]|[ GorE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I dont think the ERS paper helps in any way because i had made a THICK aluminium faraday cage for the card leading to no improvement subjectively/objectively._

 

it depends what video card you're using. my video card emits nasty RFI so for me there is a difference. also, i think aluminum is the wrong shielding material. isn't iron is what should be used?


----------



## db597

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *db597* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So do you line up the + on the blackgate to the white semi-circle on the X-Fi's PCB, or the unfilled semi-circle? Sorry, I'm not an electrical engineer... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Bump on this bit... anyone?


----------



## RichyRich

If you look at the photo on the first page of this thread it should go in like that,black side facing outwards.Hope this helps.


----------



## DSlayerZX

one question, how exactly do you desolder the god dame capacitor.

 I just try to do so today with a radio shack 25 w pencil

 the result was bad, I was never able to remove one small piece of wire that is stuck in the small solder hold. Also, I can't clean the solder efficiently enough for the other leg to go through...


 I ended up soldering the top portion of the card to hold the capacitor in place. but is not very a strong bond in my opinion. 

 Yes, I use desolder braid and everything... but just can't heat up the solder efficient enough. Seems like the whole card was action as a very efficient head sink. (the heat sink on the processor actually warm up when I solder.

 my soldering iron actually cool down so much until a point that it was actually stuck on the card. 

 Also, the soldering head actually start to deform after two hour of usage...... i am pretty sure that I didn't apply too much force to it.... but the solder head just slowly changing in size and shape

 anyway...... just wanted to ask you guys. do you guys think soldering the capacitor on the top of the circuit board is safe or not?

 also.... anyone know what was my problem for my soldering process..

 (i took a robotic class in a community college before) I have being soldering for like ..... 8 weeks, 3 hours every week. but i never notice any kind of deformation on the soldering iron.... so .. is this just caused by a bad soldering iron/ soldering tip.. or what?


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DSlayerZX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_one question, how exactly do you desolder the god dame capacitor.

 I just try to do so today with a radio shack 25 w pencil

 the result was bad, I was never able to remove one small piece of wire that is stuck in the small solder hold. Also, I can't clean the solder efficiently enough for the other leg to go through...


 I ended up soldering the top portion of the card to hold the capacitor in place. but is not very a strong bond in my opinion. 

 Yes, I use desolder braid and everything... but just can't heat up the solder efficient enough. Seems like the whole card was action as a very efficient head sink. (the heat sink on the processor actually warm up when I solder.

 my soldering iron actually cool down so much until a point that it was actually stuck on the card. 

 Also, the soldering head actually start to deform after two hour of usage...... i am pretty sure that I didn't apply too much force to it.... but the solder head just slowly changing in size and shape

 anyway...... just wanted to ask you guys. do you guys think soldering the capacitor on the top of the circuit board is safe or not?

 also.... anyone know what was my problem for my soldering process..

 (i took a robotic class in a community college before) I have being soldering for like ..... 8 weeks, 3 hours every week. but i never notice any kind of deformation on the soldering iron.... so .. is this just caused by a bad soldering iron/ soldering tip.. or what?_

 


 25W solder pencil? I don't think that is enough since the whole board is a big copper heatsink. I used a 50W solder iron and the whole operation of desoldering and soldering on the Blackgate took only about a minute. You might want to add some solder to transfer the heat better, and soak up the solder afterwards. you can borrow my soldering station if you want.


----------



## DSlayerZX

alright, thank you for your concern

 so far, the sound card is working wonderful.

 just hope this will last long. but anyway. 

 I did finish the mod, even though it looks a bit ugly, but who cares.. if covered in ers paper


----------



## Nicker

Anyone have any blackgates or ERS paper, seems to be harder to find for me. (paypal and in NY).

 I got the elite pro here and the gates, going to mod it all at once. Ill give some pictures for lost people like me that had to read this whole thread 3 times to understand.


----------



## soloz2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Nicker* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anyone have any blackgates or ERS paper, seems to be harder to find for me. (paypal and in NY).

 I got the elite pro here and the gates, going to mod it all at once. Ill give some pictures for lost people like me that had to read this whole thread 3 times to understand. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I'm prob going to order in a week or so and I also live in NY if you need me to order 4 u 2


----------



## AngryGuy

I received my opamps today. I wanted to try replacing one on my audigy 2zs before I messed with my X-Fi, but i'm not sure which chip it is. I circled the one in this picture that I think is right:





 Could someone confirm this for me?


----------



## kite7

I need 4 opamps but I only have 3 from the sample shipping. I need one more...


----------



## RichyRich

One way to insert the cap, if you cant remove all the solder is remove as much solder as you can,this should give you enough to insert the cap partly in the holes.Then heat the solder and push through at the same time,then same for other leg.

 With opamp you need snips,then cut legs off and remove remainder with solder braid.


----------



## db597

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RichyRich* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If you look at the photo on the first page of this thread it should go in like that,black side facing outwards.Hope this helps._

 

Thanks RichyRich!


----------



## RichyRich

No Problem.

 Good luck with the mod.


----------



## DSlayerZX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RichyRich* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_One way to insert the cap, if you cant remove all the solder is remove as much solder as you can,this should give you enough to insert the cap partly in the holes.Then heat the solder and push through at the same time,then same for other leg.

 With opamp you need snips,then cut legs off and remove remainder with solder braid._

 

yeah, my problem is that my soldering iron was not powerful enough, so it was never able to heat up the solder and legs for the capacitor to pass through


----------



## db597

I bought a 25W solder on the internet yesterday... too late to change now. Hope it's enough. Problem is that the higher powered ones looked a lot bigger, and not suitable for soldering the tiny legs of a SOIC opamp.


----------



## cotdt

solder murder


----------



## kite7

Is it possible to order more samples than 3?


----------



## janderclander14

New update in cap mod for and x-fi elite pro

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&#post10094649


----------



## RichyRich

25w should be no problem.Mine is only 18w and melts solder no problem.Just keep the tip clean with a damp sponge and tin the tip regular.


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kite7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is it possible to order more samples than 3?_

 

yes, from digikey. otherwise you have to order 97 of them!


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *janderclander14* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_New update in cap mod for and x-fi elite pro

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&#post10094649_

 

Ah... it is as I expected. The caps should definately be shorted then.


----------



## ReTiCuLe

That ERS Paper, should it be adhesive or non-adhesive? I'm guessing Adhesive O_o. 

 Also I'm considering using the 2200uF Kyyu caps I found in the old Antec PSU I have, should I? One of them has brown crap on top... Weird since it worked the powersupply.


----------



## db597

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ReTiCuLe* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Also I'm considering using the 2200uF Kyyu caps I found in the old Antec PSU I have, should I?_

 

It's not just the size of the caps, but also the quality right? So I would stick to Blackgate, Audionote, Nichicon.


----------



## ZenFountain

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *AngryGuy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I received my opamps today. I wanted to try replacing one on my audigy 2zs before I messed with my X-Fi, but i'm not sure which chip it is. I circled the one in this picture that I think is right:_

 

I am also curious about the Audigy 2 ZS, let me know if you find anything out


----------



## ROBSCIX

Alot of guys are using these LM4562's on soundcards latley they sound amazing. Do you guys find the ERS paper helpful? I understand it should work rather well seeing how "Noisy" the inside of a PC case is electrically speaking.


----------



## kirimaru

is there any other website where i can buy the lm4560?
 bcause national.com want to charge me 65 dollars to ship 3 samples.
 thanks.


----------



## Henmyr

I was going to do this mod on the XtremeGamer, but ran into some problems. From what I can see, the original op-amps in the Xgamer has its "pins" on the wrong side of the amp, so some bridge or something has to be done to get the new amp in place. Check the photo of it:





 Anyone got any advice on how to proceed? Is using small bits of iron wire a good thing? First solder the wire to the xgamer and then solder the new amp to the wires?

 EDIT: It might be possible to just bend the pins a little on the new amp to get it in place.

 EDIT2: I have made another photo where both op-amps are beside each other to compare sizes. The new amp the the right of the old amp. The new amp is not soldered yet.


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Henmyr* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I was going to do this mod on the XtremeGamer, but ran into some problems. From what I can see, the original op-amps in the Xgamer has its "pins" on the wrong side of the amp, so some bridge or something has to be done to get the new amp in place. Check the photo of it:





 Anyone got any advice on how to proceed? Is using small bits of iron wire a good thing? First solder the wire to the xgamer and then solder the new amp to the wires?

 EDIT: It might be possible to just bend the pins a little on the new amp to get it in place.

 EDIT2: I have made another photo where both op-amps are beside each other to compare sizes. The new amp the the right of the old amp. The new amp is not soldered yet.



_

 

oh yikes... looks like the opamp packaging is different on that card. you'll have to find an adaptor... maybe browndog makes one.


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Alot of guys are using these LM4562's on soundcards latley they sound amazing. Do you guys find the ERS paper helpful? I understand it should work rather well seeing how "Noisy" the inside of a PC case is electrically speaking._

 

i ended up covering the motherboard inductors with the ERS paper. did get rid of the scrolling noise.


----------



## M3NTAL

Are DIP to SOIC adapters easily available and/or easily added to the board (opamp swap)?


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *M3NTAL* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Are DIP to SOIC adapters easily available and/or easily added to the board (opamp swap)?_

 

yes, you can use DIP8 with the browndog adaptors. personally, i think it's easy enough to swap SOIC opamps and with my trusty Hakko 936 can do it in under a minute.


----------



## M3NTAL

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cotdt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_yes, you can use DIP8 with the browndog adaptors. personally, i think it's easy enough to swap SOIC opamps and with my trusty Hakko 936 can do it in under a minute._

 

Thank you for the tip - I am handy with an iron (use a Weller WTCPT) - and if it is as simply as you say, I will just swap it like that. It is a bit cheaper since the adapters are pricey.

 You are saying that your on board sound card can now drive power hungry headphones? Currently (stock) it makes my HD650 sound the worst they have on anything.


----------



## AngryGuy

Could one of you fine gentleman possibly share some of your tips on desoldering the opamps? I think soldering is easy enough but I am just terrible at this desoldering stuff.


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *M3NTAL* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thank you for the tip - I am handy with an iron (use a Weller WTCPT) - and if it is as simply as you say, I will just swap it like that. It is a bit cheaper since the adapters are pricey.

 You are saying that your on board sound card can now drive power hungry headphones? Currently (stock) it makes my HD650 sound the worst they have on anything._

 

you'll need an amp for most headphones. For IEMs, it's probably better not to use an amp.

 AngryGuy - you get a small scizzor or snipper and just cut off the legs of the opamp. then use your solder iron to get rid of the leftover legs.


----------



## Pm@c

Alright Cotdt, I was the one you were originally talking to about this project. Great to see the success on your thread (11 pages, woah). Anyways, I am finally getting up the courage to do this, and I am going home next weekend. I am planning on taking my x-fi home, ordering all the parts THIS weekend, and buying a soldering iron all that stuff. 

 Do you think you could get me an exact parts list as well as links to the pages you ordered them on. Im trying to find the exact parts you used (like the EXACT, not just same voltage or w/e, because I am unsure if I will get the right ones). It would help me out alot if I got a parts list from you. After that I can probably do the rest myself. BTW any sites that ship to Canada would be nice.


----------



## AngryGuy

I honestly don't know where I went wrong with my Audigy but there are so many possibilities. The good news is that I was successful on replacing the opamp of the Xtrememusic. I still need to order a capacitor and some ERS paper to finish the mod. 

 Thanks a lot, cotdt, sounds great.

 I didn't short the caps, are we back to thinking that this is a good idea? I guess I will try this next.


----------



## kyoshiro

how are the Burr-Brown OPA-2604 opamps?


----------



## Pm@c

Can anyone tell me which parts they used?


----------



## db597

I've just swapped out the capacitor on my X-Fi for the 2200uF 16V Blackgate. Initial impressions are exactly as cotdt said - warmer and more defined bass (which addresses my main gripe with it). 

 Still burning it in - have only been using the modded X-Fi for 30mins. I haven't changed the opamp, but think it's already been a worthwhile upgrade. If you're new at this, do the capacitor replacement first. The joints are bigger, so it's easier to practice here first.

 Some points:

 1. I had problems melting solders with my 25W iron. Once it's on the card (e.g. the original solder, or if you want to readjust a solder you've just added), it's very difficult to remelt it. The heat just gets conducted away by the card. I recommend at least a 30W iron. It's really cutting it close at 25W.

 2. cotdt bent his Blackgate above the X-Fi chip - this is a good idea. Mine is protuding perpendicularly out from the card. This looks nicer, but it extends outwards a lot, so I can't use the neighbouring PCI slot. Unfortunately, I've made the "legs" on my capacitor very short, so bending it is no longer an option.

 3. how does one make small joints? My solder globules are pretty large - ok for the capacitor, but I'm really worried about the opamp. I really don't have the confidence to make such small joints.


----------



## db597

Some pictures of my X-Fi after doing cotdt's capacitor mod. Here's the view from the top with the new 2200uF Blackgate attached. It completely dwarfs all the other capacitors on the X-Fi:






 Another view showing the whole soundcard. Note that the Blackgate protrudes out by quite a bit - occupies 2 PCI slots now 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. Fortunately, there's a very short riser card at the end of my motherboard (for the audio connectors of the onboard sound). It fits fine in there, so I didn't waste any PCI slots in the end.





 A close up of the Blackgate - note that the legs have been trimmed to fit perfectly. Almost looks like it came straight from Creative like this. From this view looks pretty professional if you don't mind me saying so 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. 





 Here's the bit I'd prefer to hide - I soldered it from behind. Here you can see that see my l33t DIY soldering skills aren't great at all. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The brown paint of the X-Fi board is also a bit melted as I was chasing solder globules around to move them into position. Anyone know how to make the solder joints smaller? I could really do with some tips here. The X-Fi works 100% fine, no crackles or anything, and the bass is noticably improved. But my handy work is anything by delicate:


----------



## cotdt

That is some beautiful work, db597! I do prefer to see the giant capacitor mounted the way you did it, but I wanted to mount mine in the lowest PCI slot possible to minimize noise, so I had to bend it. Well, you'll soon see that the opamp upgrade is an even more significant mod. For soldering the opamps, you want to press the LM4562 into position, heat the opamp legs on the PCI board and draw solder into it.The hot legs on the PCI board is what melts the solder, so all you need is thin solder wire. Even a huge thick iron tip is okay because the only thing it does is provide heat.

 I know many have gotten away with low-watt irons, but personally I think they are likely to damage the board and components because you have to heat them for a very long time (especially since the ground plane is a huge copper heatsink). Use at least 50W, better would be 100W, so that you can work faster and that means less possibility of component damage. It's also much easier.


----------



## RichyRich

No offence but it's not the soldering iron.There's a saying "a bad workman always blames his tools".

 The reason your having trouble is your lack of experience with solder.

 Solder has flux in it to help it apply it self to the surface, because your over heating the solder, this is burning away and the solder becomes impossible to work with.

 It's only a case of practice.Have you some old electronics you can practice on?


----------



## db597

Sure, the problem could well be me. It's my first time at soldering 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I appreciate all your feedback.

 I do think that a 50W iron is a good idea for what cotdt is describing though. When I touch the solder directly to the tip of my 25W iron, it still takes a few seconds before it melts. Also, I've not been able to get solder to melt onto a copper wick. The temperature is just too low for indirect heating. If I heat the opamps legs only, the temp won't be enough to melt the solder.

 The solder I'm using is a 0.8mm by Antex (2.5% silver). Is this considered thin enough? Or do I need another one?


----------



## RichyRich

Are you using a damp sponge?

 If you get blobs,just get rid of them or wipe tip in a damp sponge.

 You might want to try appling a touch of solder to the tip then wiping it in a damp sponge then apply a little more solder to the tip.It's easier if you have a touch of solder on the tip.

 Then put tip on joint for a couple of seconds and apply a touch more solder.

 Maybe your iron is not up to the job but try this first.


----------



## db597

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RichyRich* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You might want to try appling a touch of solder to the tip then wiping it in a damp sponge then apply a little more solder to the tip.It's easier if you have a touch of solder on the tip._

 

Thanks for the tip. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'll try that when doing the opamp. I have a damp sponge - only used it at the end to clean the tip. Am I supposed to use it more frequently? This is a brand new tip by the way, not much residue on it yet.

 How do you get just a little solder on the tip? When I melt the solder, it tends not to break off onto the tip, but rather still sticks to the rest of the solder - forming a larger and larger blob at the end. When it finally separates off, I find I have a huge blob.


----------



## AngryGuy

I agree with RichyRich that is probably just inexperience and not your iron that is giving you some trouble. Unless your iron is just not working properly. I used a 25W iron with no problem.

 As for using a sponge and such, what you want to do is tin the tip of the soldering iron right before you go to solder. Put a good amount all around the tip, then wipe it off on a damp sponge and then immediately go to solder. Otherwise the tip of the iron will oxidize and it will not transfer heat very well. Some people also like to add just a little more solder to the tip right after cleaning it off. It's not necessary but you may find it helps a bit. If you are taking particularly long time on something, re-tin the tip of the iron. When working on the opamp I did it once for each side and I was moving quickly on each side.


----------



## kite7

The black gate is huge. I cannot afford to lose a pci slot, should I still do this mod? I only have 2 pci slots, 1 for my sound card and the other for my betwork card. My card has a heatsink


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kite7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The black gate is huge. I cannot afford to lose a pci slot, should I still do this mod? I only have 2 pci slots, 1 for my sound card and the other for my betwork card. My card has a heatsink_

 

lol... it's a monster. you can get a smaller one, like the 680uF version. you can also bend it so that it is horizontal.


----------



## RichyRich

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *db597* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 How do you get just a little solder on the tip? When I melt the solder, it tends not to break off onto the tip, but rather still sticks to the rest of the solder - forming a larger and larger blob at the end. When it finally separates off, I find I have a huge blob. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 


 Sorry, bad advice if your using a pointy tip,mine's got a little bevel for this to work.

 Just tin regular and use the sponge often,like before and after each application or every 30 seconds if its taking you a while.


----------



## kyoshiro

does the front panel have its own OPAMP for the X-Fi Platinum btw


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kyoshiro* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_does the front panel have its own OPAMP for the X-Fi Platinum btw_

 

Yes. If you use the front panel, the sound will be degraded no matter how much you mod it. I recommend that it is used only for convenience.


----------



## dty

wow this looks really interesting..


----------



## StanleyBuchanan

All reports say the front panel degrades the sound by a noticeable amount (including review sites that are nowhere near hifi/headfi experienced)


----------



## kyoshiro

mmm so should i get an extension from the back to the front?


----------



## kite7

How tall is the blackgate anyways? I might be able to fit it if I move my sound card to the last slot


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kite7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How tall is the blackgate anyways? I might be able to fit it if I move my sound card to the last slot_

 

their lengths are listed at the website that sells them. i'm sure you'll find at least one of them is short enough to fit your needs.


----------



## db597

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kite7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How tall is the blackgate anyways? I might be able to fit it if I move my sound card to the last slot_

 

For the dimensions, look here:
http://www.hificollective.co.uk/comp...dard_type.html

 The height are:

 2200uF 16V 31.5mm
 1000uF 16V 25mm
 220uF 16V 20mm

 Note that height doesn't decrease much with the smaller capacitors - it's mainly diameter that gets smaller. But really, you can bend the capacitor over the X-Fi, like cotdt. Or you can bend it to the right. Or you can bend it upwards. In fact, you can even mount the capacitor on the reverse side of the card. There's many choices. 

 The reason I posted those pictures showing the capacitor size is so that you can plan properly how you want to position it. If you make the legs too short like me, you won't have much scope for adjustment. But there's really a lot of ways to make it fit within 1 PCI slot.


----------



## sguft

I've ordered the blackgate capacitor and it should arrive in a few days. 
 The opamp however seems to be harder to get. I've ordered 3 samples from national 6 days ago (20th march) and the delivery date is still "not confirmed".

 I haven't paid for any shipping though and I wonder if there's something I have missed in the process (like maybe the confirmation mail with shipping payment info got caught by my spamfilter).

 I suppose a lot of you have been through this process and maybe could tell if I've missed something or it's just National being slow (or maybe getting suspecious about the sudden interest for their LM4562 opamp samples


----------



## sguft

ah been searching through my mails and it seems I've missed the mail regarding shipping payment. 

 Looking forward to complete the mod


----------



## GameBlaster

Ok I want to mod X-Fi elite pro, only the front channel ,,
 when changing the old power cap by the one with 2200uF, 16V , if the blackgate cap isn't used but any cap with 2200uF, 16V. Will I see big impact in sound quality for long time? 

 I've another thing, after replacing the JRC opamp with LM4562 and shorting the four caps of the front do I guarantee stability to the surround opamp and DAC provided that 2200uF, 16V cap is used also ?


----------



## dregelmyller

Is this overkill or what ? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ESR paper over and under + grounded aluminum sheild. everything sealed in plastic (except grounding point).

 I will check how hot the card gets before i place the ESR paper any closer. 

 Have not modded the card yet thought, will let someone else do it for me next week mayby.


----------



## soloz2

that does look a little overkill! I'm not sure what I'm going to do with my card... the way my case is situated with my PSU on the bottom, my card is sandwiched between my gfx card and my psu. Although, having my gpu watercooled should help since there isn't a fan directly above the card. I do have the card spaced as well as I can though. I may just put some ERS paper on the top of my card and on the top of my psu... idk.

 But I was thinking that I might just order 1000uf Blackgates instead of the 2200uf ones. they're smaller and cheaper... and the stock cap is only 220uf so it should be more then enough. I do not see any benefit from going all the way to 2200uf, someone tell me if I'm wrong but I think the 1000uf would be more then enough.


----------



## AngryGuy

Does anyone else have any impressions on using ERS paper? This is the one part of the mod I haven't tried yet but I'd like to hear more opinions on it before I spend the money on the paper.


----------



## Henmyr

Did all of the mods today on XtremeMusic. Shifted op-amp, added Blackgate 2200uF 16V, ERS Paper and shorted the caps. And wow. I never though the source would do this much. My H5 and DT990 05 32ohm are finally shining as they should. Great mod, thanks cotdt


----------



## soloz2

has anyone tried a 1000uf blackgate instead of the 2200uf cap?


----------



## ]|[ GorE

I have a low ESR 480uF cap in parallel with default cap and it does its job well enough. 1000uF is great...


----------



## DSlayerZX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RichyRich* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No offence but it's not the soldering iron.There's a saying "a bad workman always blames his tools".

 The reason your having trouble is your lack of experience with solder.

 Solder has flux in it to help it apply it self to the surface, because your over heating the solder, this is burning away and the solder becomes impossible to work with.

 It's only a case of practice.Have you some old electronics you can practice on?_

 

Actually, I am pretty sure that is is the soldering iron 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Before, I practice my soldering skill with the soldering irons that was provided by my Robotic class teacher, everything was great.

 But then, after three years, I decided to do soldering again... and now... I used a Radio Shack 25 W pencil and here is what happen.

 first of all, the top of the soldering iron does not transfer heat well
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I need to use the part that is like.. 1 or 2 mm away from the tip in order to heat up the soldering until it melts

 second. the tip deform badly just by working with it for like... five hours.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 It is badly deform until a point that there is a "hook" on the tip of it.

 Third. I really think is because the soldering iron was not hard enough... since apparently, most of the heat that I apply to the capacitor socket when I try to desolder went to the heat sink of the x-fi processor. And the tip of the soldering iron was stuck on the board 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Fourth: the tip actually gets lose after some soldering... I need to unplug the soldering iron, wait till it's cool, then tighten the tip again...

 So, today, after finally went back home, I visit a local electronic store, picked up a Philmore 30W soldering iron for 8 bux. Even the replacement tip.... (even though the store owner told me that the tip should be good for like.. a year of soldering with normal/minimum usage, but hey, what the heck)

 CONCLUSION: STAY AWAY FROM THE JUNKS IN RADIO SHACK, THEY ARE NOT GOOD, NO, NOT GOOD AT ALL


----------



## RichyRich

yeah your right, the radioshack one's aren't much good but should be alright for 8 joints.

 db597 admitted he never tinned or used a sponge so it was him in this case.

 Anyway, enough about soldering.

 How are you finding this great, cheap mod?


----------



## kyoshiro

file the iron tip?


----------



## DSlayerZX

The mod is pretty great, it made the card sounded much more clear, and much
 much more realistic when I am listening to music.... (I turn my head around few times... )

 but anyway, after the mode, my card barely fit into my case XD
 It did eventually though.


----------



## dregelmyller

Tomorrow i will have my card get modded.

 One question, i still hesitate to short the caps. The card will be connected to a pretty expensive rig so i want to play safe.

 Do i miss out on alot (sound quality wise) by not shortening the caps ?
 it is still a big improvement if i only switch to blackgate and LM4562:s right ?

 Really excited about this mod, hope i get close to what i had with my dedicated CD-player before.

 Sold the CD-player becouse its so much nicer to have all music on the comp in FLAC and swich songs with the Creative remote 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (yes i am lazy haha)


----------



## soloz2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dregelmyller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Tomorrow i will have my card get modded.

 One question, i still hesitate to short the caps. The card will be connected to a pretty expensive rig so i want to play safe.

 Do i miss out on alot (sound quality wise) by not shortening the caps ?
 it is still a big improvement if i only switch to blackgate and LM4562:s right ?

 Really excited about this mod, hope i get close to what i had with my dedicated CD-player before.

 Sold the CD-player becouse its so much nicer to have all music on the comp in FLAC and swich songs with the Creative remote 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (yes i am lazy haha)_

 

if you are really concerned about the caps instead of shorting them just replace them with higher quality caps


----------



## dregelmyller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *soloz2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_if you are really concerned about the caps instead of shorting them just replace them with higher quality caps_

 

Yeah mayby i do that. I can always add them later so i think iwill skip that part of the mod for now.


----------



## ]|[ GorE

WHY ARE YOU SHORTING THE CAPS ??


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *]|[ GorE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_WHY ARE YOU SHORTING THE CAPS ??_

 

I answered this previously. Because me and others have done this and it improves the sound subjectively.


----------



## kirimaru

well,should i short all those mentioned caps?because i havent modded yet my xfi.i am still waiting for the components.


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kirimaru* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_well,should i short all those mentioned caps?because i havent modded yet my xfi.i am still waiting for the components._

 

yes


----------



## Wincet

When would the 3 surround opamps be used so I know if I gain anything from replacing them?


----------



## ROBSCIX

The opamps are used when running the card in analog mode. If using digital the opamps have little to do with the sound quality. Does this answer your question.
 On the question of caps -if your speaking of DC blocking caps, They are a protection device to prevent DC voltage from being fed into whatever your card is connected to BUT a capacitor in this circuit position degrades sound quality. Although they are in the circuit alot of the time they are indeed redundant and/or NOT needed.


----------



## Wincet

No, I'm am asking specifically about the 3 opamps used for surround sound. In the picture and in the tutorial there is the main opamp and there are the surround opamps.


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Wincet* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No, I'm am asking specifically about the 3 opamps used for surround sound. In the picture and in the tutorial there is the main opamp and there are the surround opamps._

 

If you're not going to use surround sound, then there is no benefit in replacing them. Was that your question?


----------



## gates_2

so...finally got my stuff in from parts connection

 Got everything modded...after a while....

 For some reason, I couldn't get the old legs out of 1 the holes for the cap. and for the other hole, tHe blackgates legs were very big, so I couldn't get it through... After(literally) ripping the pad off of the back of the card, i decided to play it safe and just solder it on the front, instead of through the holes. I'm getting more and more experienced with DIY, and have built several amps, but that X-FI is really not fun to solder with, it acts as a big heatsink. Just a word of caution to those unexperienced- be careful!

 also, got the shielding paper in.

 Haven't listened to it too much yet, but the difference is noticible. Not nearly as much as the op-amp switch, but it is more refined and "organic" as you'd say. I'd consider the cap/paper the last 10%. Then again, I think I've outsourced my current rig, now I'm ready to step up the amp and probably get another pair of cans too.


----------



## DSlayerZX

about shorting the caps.
 So far, i haven't done it yet,
 so right now, we can confirm that it is safe to do so
 here is my question... do we only short the four caps that was circled in the picture?

 Because I put a total of 3 OPAMP onto the card, do i suppose to short the caps that is related to those opamp also?


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DSlayerZX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_about shorting the caps.
 So far, i haven't done it yet,
 so right now, we can confirm that it is safe to do so
 here is my question... do we only short the four caps that was circled in the picture?

 Because I put a total of 3 OPAMP onto the card, do i suppose to short the caps that is related to those opamp also?_

 

Yeah...


----------



## DSlayerZX

Alright, thanks

 this may be off topic, but how's your spring break 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I think when I got back.. I need to try to resolder my x-fi again.. another pain in the a@@ =_=

 ps... as for yeah... do you mean short all the cap related to it.. or just the one circle in the pic


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DSlayerZX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Alright, thanks

 this may be off topic, but how's your spring break 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I think when I got back.. I need to try to resolder my x-fi again.. another pain in the a@@ =_=

 ps... as for yeah... do you mean short all the cap related to it.. or just the one circle in the pic_

 

i stayed in san diego and studied the whole week. also been modding tube amps =)

 yeah, short all of them. that's four for each opamp. Good thing the X-Fi is unbalanced. My M-Audio has balanced output and has more than double the number of opamps!


----------



## DSlayerZX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cotdt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i stayed in san diego and studied the whole week. also been modding tube amps =)

 yeah, short all of them. that's four for each opamp. Good thing the X-Fi is unbalanced. My M-Audio has balanced output and has more than double the number of opamps!_

 

As I am typing, I am at home eating green tea ice cream 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 anyway, A week with out my computer/headphone set up is a pain, I literally have no entertainment at all.

 suddenly start to wonder, what M-Audio card did you got, just check the web, and they indeed are balance audiophile card. plus, how do they sound compare to x-fi


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DSlayerZX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_As I am typing, I am at home eating green tea ice cream 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 anyway, A week with out my computer/headphone set up is a pain, I literally have no entertainment at all.

 suddenly start to wonder, what M-Audio card did you got, just check the web, and they indeed are balance audiophile card. plus, how do they sound compare to x-fi_

 

Oooo... green tea ice cream is the best. I will buy some right now!

 Did you know that some M-Audio cards come with Blackgates? Yeah kinda surprising. I have the M-Audio Audiophile 192 (of the Delta series) that I got in a trade with hydrocity here. They use the AKM DAC which is very good. I actually never heard this card, since I use its digital out to my external DAC (Zhaolu 2.5). My Zhaolu doesn't use opamps but discrete Z-transistors. The sound is very different from opamps, like comparing vacuum tubes to solid state. My current system sounds warm and intimate, and altogether pretty unique. In contrast, the modded X-Fi is like an oversamplist's dream with my K701.

 The Audiophile192 has a ton of features though. You can even get 4 of them and use them all at once, like for surround sound or as speaker crossovers.


----------



## kamal007

anyone can mod my xfi for a small fee and faster turning time? i cant afford to wait like 2-3 weeks without my card cause it will make my listening experience less fun...=)


----------



## GameBlaster

regarding the power cap with 2200uF, 16V , I there a dedicated caps for audio equipments or any cap has the same function? if any cap with 2200uF, 16V is used, will this do the job in the mod ?


----------



## ]|[ GorE

Are you guys sure that the 4 22uF caps aren't necessary ? I mean,shouldn't the opamps too be given some current reserve if they are to drive headphones directly.I understand their removal if one only plans to use the card as the source(not as an amp).


----------



## dregelmyller

Plugged in my modded card one hour ago, the sound has really opened up. Everything is more clear and the soundstage is noticeable wider.

 I shorted the caps anyway despite my previous hesitations  

 Took some precaution thought. 

 I measured the DC output with a multimeter. it read 0.000mv all the way from starting the computer until i turned it off. 
 Was i supposed to play music while i measured ?

 One funny thing, i then tested with some old crappy headphones and the sound was really, really muddy.

 Thought it was the card that had got messed up but i dicovered it was the old headphones that were reeeeaaally crappy. Got a bit worried there hehe.

 Anyway, great mod !


----------



## kirimaru

first i shorted those 4 caps and when turned on my pc,there was no sound in the front channel or headphones.
 then i unshorted the caps and wow the sound was more clear and there is more soundstage.
 can i get same results if i short others caps of surround dacs?
 thanks.


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kirimaru* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_first i shorted those 4 caps and when turned on my pc,there was no sound in the front channel or headphones.
 then i unshorted the caps and wow the sound was more clear and there is more soundstage.
 can i get same results if i short others caps of surround dacs?
 thanks._

 

huh? you shorted and unshorted the caps and the sound changed? that is strange... are you sure you shorted the right caps? i'm pretty sure it will work and produce sound if shorted correctly...


----------



## kirimaru

yes,thats what i dont understand why.i also thought that shorted the wrong caps,but not i was right.


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kirimaru* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_yes,thats what i dont understand why.i also thought that shorted the wrong caps,but not i was right.


_

 

Yes, that's correct. Are you sure all four were bridged correctly? If only 3 of them are bridged, then it won't output any sound.


----------



## kirimaru

all of them were bridged properly,i am very confused.
 i am going to short all the caps of dacs and see what happen.


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kirimaru* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_all of them were bridged properly,i am very confused.
 i am going to short all the caps of dacs and see what happen._

 

I am confused as well.


----------



## RichyRich

Hi cotdt,is it ok if I pm you for help in modding a Phillips SBC HD1502U headphone amp I use for movies and MTV.Cheers.


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RichyRich* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi cotdt,is it ok if I pm you for help in modding a Phillips SBC HD1502U headphone amp I use for movies and MTV.Cheers._

 

Sure, and pictures would be nice =)


----------



## GameBlaster

What will happen if I don't replace the power caps after changing opamp to LM4562 ?


----------



## ReTiCuLe

Codt, is the sound still noticeably better without ERS Paper? I haven't gotten ahold of any yet. If I could live without it for a bit with better sound I'd start modding 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## gates_2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ReTiCuLe* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Codt, is the sound still noticeably better without ERS Paper? I haven't gotten ahold of any yet. If I could live without it for a bit with better sound I'd start modding 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





._

 

IMHO, the op-amp chage makes the biggest sound difference. Yes, it is completely worth modding the op-amp/cap first, then adding the ERS paper in later. Note that every system will probablyent respond a bit differly to the ERS, depending on the arrangement of video card/soundcard in your pci slot. Heck, some video cards don't even have fans. In my case, there was a big fan basically right on top of the card- no good!


----------



## soloz2

yeah since my gpu is water cooled there's no fan, but my case is directly below my sound card so I'm probably going to put ERS paper on my psu instead of on my sound card


----------



## wordstew

OK which one of you hotshots lives close to MA and can do the Modification for me. Send me a PM and see if we can work something out.


----------



## kirimaru

well,i have shorted all caps,now every output is working perfectly.
 thanks Codt.


----------



## kirimaru

its seems to be that i cant get the lm4562,is there any other good dac which i can use it with my xfi?


----------



## RichB

Does anyone have a picture of the output caps to short? The orginal picture is not of the output caps.

 - Rich


----------



## soloz2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kirimaru* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_its seems to be that i cant get the lm4562,is there any other good dac which i can use it with my xfi?_

 

no, you can't really change the DAC


----------



## RichyRich

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kirimaru* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_its seems to be that i cant get the lm4562,is there any other good dac which i can use it with my xfi?_

 

lm4562 is a opamp,not sure if its just a typo by you though.


----------



## Twitchy_one

What's the cheapest sound card one can get for
 practicing the Black Gate switch? I basically
 would want to practice this before I shell out
 money for the best card & somehow manage to
 break it.

 I was thinking of getting the Auzen X-Mystique 7.1
 Gold, so the opamps are easy to replace & then 
 switch the cap to a Black Gate.

 Also, how do you short the other caps? I see it
 explained but I don't know how to do this. I'm
 pretty much completely new & without tools
 but I am interested in tinkering with it... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 And for the ERS paper, does it have a sticky
 surface on one side, otherwise how does it
 stay on the card?

 Thanks,
 Twitchy


----------



## kirimaru

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RichyRich* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_lm4562 is a opamp,not sure if its just a typo by you though._

 

oh sorry for my mistake,i mean opamp.the thing is that i am looking for something comparable to lm4562 or even better.


----------



## Twitchy_one

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kirimaru* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_oh sorry for my mistake,i mean opamp.the thing is that i am looking for something comparable to lm4562 or even better._

 

How come you can't buy them online? I see the LM4562 MA & NA available
 on digikey.com which are described & photographed on the national.com
 website.


----------



## Twitchy_one

This is a photo of the Auzentech Meridian. Could someone point out to me
 which cap would need to be replaced with the Black Gate? I think it is the
 cap that has 470 in the upper left of this photo. I found some info
 on the web about cap removal & replacement, at least with motherboards.
 It seems that you can pull them out with pliers (& a screw driver underneath
 since the caps appear to be pressed on to the pcb). Once that's done I guess
 it's just a matter of using the hot glue solution. Also, if anyone can point
 out which caps to short, that would also help. Thanks!


----------



## soloz2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Twitchy_one* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is a photo of the Auzentech Meridian. Could someone point out to me
 which cap would need to be replaced with the Black Gate? I think it is the
 cap that has 470 in the upper left of this photo. I found some info
 on the web about cap removal & replacement, at least with motherboards.
 It seems that you can pull them out with pliers (& a screw driver underneath
 since the caps appear to be pressed on to the pcb). Once that's done I guess
 it's just a matter of using the hot glue solution. Also, if anyone can point
 out which caps to short, that would also help. Thanks!
_

 

not to rain on your parade, but I would really rather we keep this thread to the X-fi mods. Start a new thread in the DIY section with your questions.

 and no, simply pulling caps off and then hot gluing new ones on will not do you any good. You need to desolder the old ones (even if you pull them off w/ pliers and do not break anything other then the cap you'll need to desolder the leads so you might as well attempt to get the cap off in one piece.) And then you'll need to clean off the contacts and solder the new cap in place.


----------



## kirimaru

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Twitchy_one* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How come you can't buy them online? I see the LM4562 MA & NA available
 on digikey.com which are described & photographed on the national.com
 website._

 

i tried to buy on these sites,made the payments and next day phonedme to tell me that thay want to chargeme 130 bucks for just shipping
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ,can you believe that?.


----------



## RichyRich

Where are you? I might be able to send you one.


----------



## dregelmyller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kirimaru* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i tried to buy on these sites,made the payments and next day phonedme to tell me that thay want to chargeme 130 bucks for just shipping
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 ,can you believe that?._

 

Holy c*ap..
 When this mod thread started it cost like 9$ for 3 opamps including s&h.
 At the time i ordered them it cost me 20$.

 One week later it was like 60$.. now 130$


----------



## Twitchy_one

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *soloz2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_not to rain on your parade, but I would really rather we keep this thread to the X-fi mods. Start a new thread in the DIY section with your questions.

 and no, simply pulling caps off and then hot gluing new ones on will not do you any good. You need to desolder the old ones (even if you pull them off w/ pliers and do not break anything other then the cap you'll need to desolder the leads so you might as well attempt to get the cap off in one piece.) And then you'll need to clean off the contacts and solder the new cap in place._

 

Thanks for the info.


----------



## Twitchy_one

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kirimaru* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i tried to buy on these sites,made the payments and next day phonedme to tell me that thay want to chargeme 130 bucks for just shipping
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ,can you believe that?._

 

I guess they made a mistake on the original pricing. Bummer.


----------



## Nicker

The opamps? 

http://www.national.com/pf/LM/LM4562.html#Availability

 Got them a week ago, cost me 9$ and change.


----------



## Lockout

So, has anyone ordered any of those opamps in the past few days? Are they still asking for lots of money, or are the prices back down to normal?


----------



## soloz2

I ordered 3 not long ago and didn't have to pay anything... but then again I used my college addy and college email so they went through as educational.


----------



## Nicker

I am doing the blackgate cap. and opamps tonight, i'll post pictures later for the xfi elite pro.


----------



## Lockout

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *soloz2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I ordered 3 not long ago and didn't have to pay anything... but then again I used my college addy and college email so they went through as educational._

 

That's smart, I hadn't thought of trying that. Let's see if it works for me.


----------



## RichyRich

I just ordered another 3(MDIP for a amp)and it was just $10.04 to the UK.

 Are you other people ticking the consumer box???maybe thats the problem.


----------



## Lockout

Cool, it worked. Got 1 sample for free using my school e-mail. Says I can only order 1 free sample per item per week, but that's all I need anyway. Thanks for the tip!


----------



## soloz2

np


----------



## Nicker

Ok so I did the opamps and the blackgate on my xfi elite pro.

 First impressions (using seni 595's right into the xfi box) is that my bass went missing (im guessing I need to burn in these electronics or get an amp to drive my headphones), but mid's and highs are more define.

 I am new to this whole audio scene but there is a difference from before the mod and after, a better sound. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Here are some after pictures:


 The Blackgate:







 Blackgate mounted: (had some trouble fitting the leads into the stock hole, trimmed the leads of the blackgate down with a dremel to fit).
























 First opamp: (I removed the stock ones with a pin-point heatgun(hot air to basically melt the pins right off the board), and soldered the new opamp into place by hand.)






 The three I did:







 Back connections soldered on the blackgate:






 ERS paper locked in place with the PCI card slot plate: (make sure none of the edges are touching any electronics, I folded edges into themselves).







 Second layer of ERS paper on the bottom:










 Please critique, praise, question or comment!!! Thanks for all the help in this thread from everyone and all the advise on this board!


----------



## cotdt

Very nice, Nicker! I will post a link to your post onto my guide. Now about that missing bass... check to make sure that the Blackgate is soldered to both terminals and that all the connections are well-soldered, in case there is a loose connection somewhere. To me, there didn't seem a need for burn-in to get the bass. Burn-in did slightly change the sound, but bass was always there.


----------



## Nicker

Thanks cotdt, everything was done pretty well, but I will check the continuity from the base of the blackgate to a differnt lead on the board, and it should work if the connection is okay on the board. 

 It would not make a difference that I did only 3/4 opamp's, since I only use the 1 opamp for my headphones?


----------



## kirimaru

hey guys,can someone send 4 of lm4562? i will pay you,please PM me.
 thanks.


----------



## phalanger

I ordered a sample of the lm4562 today, directly from national semiconductor's website.
 I was charged 11$ usd for it to be shipped from a singapore warehouse to my house in the netherlands.. It's really not a bad deal.
 For the maximum amount of 3 samples it was 20$ for shipping however, so i decided to just get one for now and maybe get an additional set of 3 later.
 So its not hard to get 4 of them.. however if many people are interested maybe someone (not me) could just buy a 95-reel of them and resell them per 4..


 -phl


----------



## DSlayerZX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Nicker* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ok so I did the opamps and the blackgate on my xfi elite pro.

 First impressions (using seni 595's right into the xfi box) is that my bass went missing (im guessing I need to burn in these electronics or get an amp to drive my headphones), but mid's and highs are more define.

 I am new to this whole audio scene but there is a difference from before the mod and after, a better sound. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Here are some after pictures:


 Please critique, praise, question or comment!!! Thanks for all the help in this thread from everyone and all the advise on this board!_

 

delete pic to save space.

 Job well done, here is my two cent

 I recommand you to bend the black gate toward the opposite direction. Even though I know if might not be a big problem for most of the people, but there was few cases report the core of the sound card over heats. That's why the heat sink was added later.


----------



## ROBSCIX

You guys who have done the Blackgate Mod what do you find has improved after installing the cap? Also is there any truth to the "Burn-In" factor Black gates are supposed to exhibit?


----------



## soloz2

well I've contacted Percy Audio about getting some ERS paper and some Blackgates but haven't really heard back yet... so instead of just sitting around I decided to swap the op-amp just now and all I've got to say is WOW! I only swapped the op-amp. I didn't short the caps (not sure if I'm going to do that just because there has been some uncertainty around this aspect)

 I can't wait for the Blackgates and ERS paper now!!!


----------



## phalanger

For those who are about to do this mod and aren't too sure about their soldering skills.. i highly recommend checking out these pages:

http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/pre...?p=SMD-HowTo-2

 thats the proper and neat way to solder on an IC.. for removing the old one you can try desoldering but also can use a small side-cutter to cut each of the legs off from the side, i recommend this over the x-acto approach shown on that site.. http://www.okaphone.com/artikel.asp?id=402937 something like that.
 Also for safety a grounded soldering station is advisable, with temperature setting. Other then that, let the wick do its magic 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Just thought id add my .02$ for those feeling unsure. I haven't done the mod myself yet, still waiting on the opamp to arrive.

 Please post experiences/comments whoever does this mod! Great threat, cool mod. 
 Question to the original poster: is this opamp the definitive best choice or are there alternatives?

 -phl


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *phalanger* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Question to the original poster: is this opamp the definitive best choice or are there alternatives?

 -phl_

 

As far as ordinary opamps go, this is the best one I've tried. I've tried the AD8620, AD8066, OPA, LT1057, and some others. You can probably try the Burson discrete "opamp" or even the Zapfilter if you're brave (and crazy) enough. The Zapfilter is definately the best in terms of sound quality.


----------



## kirimaru

i have ordered 2 samples of LTC6244,i want see how thisone sound comparade to the stockone.


----------



## RichyRich

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kirimaru* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i have ordered 2 samples of LTC6244,i want see how thisone sound comparade to the stockone._

 

Where did you order from after?


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kirimaru* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i have ordered 2 samples of LTC6244,i want see how thisone sound comparade to the stockone._

 

Interesting opamp! Tell us how it sounds! Make sure you have an amp though, because this opamp might have trouble driving low impedance loads like headphones.


----------



## cotdt

Anyway, I reviewed my basic physics and figured out how the ERS Paper worked... and realized that they are WAY overpriced for what they are. You can probably make your own "ERS Paper" by obtaining a sheet of copper mesh and sandwiching it between two sheets of paper. I am sorry I advocated the use of this overpriced product, but it does work.

 btw, I think the ELNA Cerafine sounds amazing too! They are warmer than the Blackgates. BTW, 1000uF is all you need.


----------



## kamal007

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cotdt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anyway, I reviewed my basic physics and figured out how the ERS Paper worked... and realized that they are WAY overpriced for what they are. You can probably make your own "ERS Paper" by obtaining a sheet of copper mesh and sandwiching it between two sheets of paper. I am sorry I advocated the use of this overpriced product, but it does work.

 btw, I think the ELNA Cerafine sounds amazing too! They are warmer than the Blackgates. BTW, 1000uF is all you need.




_

 

wooo...thats super huge...


----------



## kyoshiro

very.... lol


----------



## DSlayerZX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cotdt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anyway, I reviewed my basic physics and figured out how the ERS Paper worked... and realized that they are WAY overpriced for what they are. You can probably make your own "ERS Paper" by obtaining a sheet of copper mesh and sandwiching it between two sheets of paper. I am sorry I advocated the use of this overpriced product, but it does work.

 btw, I think the ELNA Cerafine sounds amazing too! They are warmer than the Blackgates. BTW, 1000uF is all you need.
_

 

Holy crap, that is a really huge capacitor. I don't think my computer will fit 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 too much wire and stuff inside.


----------



## dregelmyller

hehe a _bit_ oversized cap .
 Overdoing things is always fun 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I actually removed the shielding today, the sound got a little bit too warm and cozy for my taste after testing it now for awhile.

 Guess it depens on the system/room and listeners taste.


----------



## kirimaru

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RichyRich* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Where did you order from after?_

 

i ordered them from here and also ordered the new ad8599.but i cant find anything with similar spec like lm4562
http://www.linear.com/pc/productDeta...4,C1009,P25554


----------



## RichyRich

You might want to try the LTC6244 first,the reason is, it might be crap for audio as no one seems to use it for this use and you can just cut it out(unless your a whizz with a soldering iron and can remove them with out breaking it) and insert the AD8599 which some people prefer to the LM4562.

 P.S. I take it you had no luck with NAT Semiconductor?


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bDerek* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Attached in the pdf is the output circuit that I have traced on an X-Fi Platinum. I cannot see any of the 22uF electrolytic caps in the ouput at all but have traced some connected to +5v and -5v rails. Replacing the op amps are a great idea but could more be done replacing the transistors Q2,Q3,Q4,Q5 that are all marked J1X on the front outputs and on the other outputs a different set of transistors are used marked O2NR. Anyone know what who makes the J1X and O2NR transistors?_

 

That does not look at all like the output circuit of the X-Fi for the front output at the back of the card. The shown schematic has an unbalanced input where as the X-Fi has ballanced inputs & that is why you need to short 2 capacitors for each channel, one for each signal leg.

 Oops I see you are talking of the power circuit not the input circuit, Shorting these would cause the 5 volt regulator to fail & ruin your card The caps that I shorted are in the signal path from the DAC to the opamp to both the positive & negative inputs these have less than +3 volt on them which gets cancelled in the opamp. This is true D.C. coupling & there is a small D.C. offset left over. Most amps are not D.C. coupled so this is not much of an issue but be aware some high end amps ARE D.C. COUPLED as well & may have NO D.C. OFFSET PROTECTION. 30 millivolts times 16 (a typical gain for a power amp = .48 volts). THIS IS enough to cause concern about OVERHEATING such an amp. Capitals are for emphasis.

 I can get away with this even though all my amps are D.C. coupled because my preamp has D.C. protection built in by using a D.C. servo so the excess D.C. is cancelled in the preamp.


----------



## GameBlaster

What will be the side effects of using 1000 uF, 16V power filter caps from other manufacturer like samsung . . ?


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GameBlaster* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What will be the side effects of using 1000 uF, 16V power filter caps from other manufacturer like samsung . . ?_

 

it's perfectly fine. i never used a samsung so i can't tell you how it will sound like. i do know that some of the cheaper capacitors have a tendency to blow up and emit poisonous gases, though.


----------



## GameBlaster

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cotdt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_it's perfectly fine. i never used a samsung so i can't tell you how it will sound like. i do know that some of the cheaper capacitors have a tendency to blow up and emit poisonous gases, though._

 

what I mean, is the higher uF caps will lead to higher quality sound or amplification .


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GameBlaster* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_what I mean, is the higher uF caps will lead to higher quality sound or amplification . 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Nah, 1000uF is definately enough considering that the stock one was 220uF. Anything over 470uF is an upgrade.


----------



## ROBSCIX

In what ways Does changing the power Capacitor affect the sound quality?


----------



## soloz2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_In what ways Does changing the power Capacitor affect the sound quality?_

 

by giving the card more power reserve.


----------



## ROBSCIX

No, NO you don't understand what I mean. I understand the theory behind the mod but what can you hear after doing the mod? What has changed to the sound quality?


----------



## soloz2

well I don't have my blackgates yet to actually try it, but I would guess it would be similar to larger power caps in most amps... more extended bass and slightly better dynamics


----------



## ROBSCIX

I am thinking of doing this mod myself but am unsure as I get conflicting reports so I wanted to ask somebody who has done the mod if the hear any improvements...


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am thinking of doing this mod myself but am unsure as I get conflicting reports so I wanted to ask somebody who has done the mod if the hear any improvements..._

 

There were a couple reports several pages back with only the PSU mod, but this thread is kind of long so I can't find them anymore.


----------



## ROBSCIX

So nobody has actually heard the A/B after doing this mod? I am just curious as to the amount of gains produced by this mod.


----------



## soloz2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So nobody has actually heard the A/B after doing this mod? I am just curious as to the amount of gains produced by this mod._

 

well just going from the stock op-amp to the new op-amp there is a pretty big difference. My Blackgates and ERS paper should ship tomorrow so I can complete the mod. I do have 3 x-fi's so I can do a brief listen before I mod all 3 if you would like.


----------



## WhoBeDaPlaya

Can anyone comment on the differences between the XtremeMusic and XtremeGamer (component quality wise)?
 Also, has anyone successfully modded the XtremeGamer?

 The XG is available right now at the egg for $49.99 AR, which seems like a pretty hot deal.


----------



## WhoBeDaPlaya

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cotdt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i ended up covering the motherboard inductors with the ERS paper. did get rid of the scrolling noise._

 

Careful. Doing this may induce eddy currents that will decrease the inductance and increase the resistance of the inductor.
 Best to use ferrite as it acts as a low reluctance return path or to call it the old fashioned way, a keeper strap


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *WhoBeDaPlaya* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Careful. Doing this may induce eddy currents that will decrease the inductance and increase the resistance of the inductor.
 Best to use ferrite as it acts as a low reluctance return path or to call it the old fashioned way, a keeper strap 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

how would you do it? pictures or diagrams?


----------



## Henmyr

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *WhoBeDaPlaya* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Can anyone comment on the differences between the XtremeMusic and XtremeGamer (component quality wise)?
 Also, has anyone successfully modded the XtremeGamer?

 The XG is available right now at the egg for $49.99 AR, which seems like a pretty hot deal._

 

Check post #195

 Gamer can not be modded the exact same way as music, due to differences in the op-amp sockets.

 Other differences is that Music has coax digital out, while Gamer has optical digital out.


----------



## WhoBeDaPlaya

Thanks for the heads up


----------



## cotdt

I just did some calculations and found that the 220uF cap on the power supply is large enough. It just needs better quality. Now I think that the sound quality gain I noticed by changing the capacitor is due to the Blackgate being a lower distortion capacitor, and is in fact part of the audio signal path. A better recommendation for the capacitor would be a 470uF Blackgate or perhaps even a film capacitor (although it will be very big).


----------



## kirimaru

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cotdt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just did some calculations and found that the 220uF cap on the power supply is large enough. It just needs better quality. Now I think that the sound quality gain I noticed by changing the capacitor is due to the Blackgate being a lower distortion capacitor, and is in fact part of the audio signal path. A better recommendation for the capacitor would be a 470uF Blackgate or perhaps even a film capacitor (although it will be very big)._

 

are saying to change the cap of psu of the pc?
 in that case,whichone do you recomend us? my psu is using a 430v,dont remenber the brand and model.
 can i replace my 430v for 500v or 600v?


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kirimaru* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_are saying to change the cap of psu of the pc?
 in that case,whichone do you recomend us? my psu is using a 430v,dont remenber the brand and model.
 can i replace my 430v for 500v or 600v?_

 

i meant the cap on the sound card. it's a 220uF Jamicon. i'm saying that quality of cap matters over quantity of capacitance.


----------



## GameBlaster

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cotdt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just did some calculations and found that the 220uF cap on the power supply is large enough. It just needs better quality. Now I think that the sound quality gain I noticed by changing the capacitor is due to the Blackgate being a lower distortion capacitor, and is in fact part of the audio signal path. A better recommendation for the capacitor would be a 470uF Blackgate or perhaps even a film capacitor (although it will be very big)._

 

So what is the consequences of using 2200 uF power supply cap ? will effect the card or sound signal?


----------



## mrjojoe

Hi, 
 I've been lurking around these forums for a while now and have now decided to actually join, so hello everyone.

 Right, now for me to intrude on this thread. I have an X-Fi Elite Pro (bought when they first came out, without the heatsink) and a two year old pair of Sennhieser HD650's with an Equinox HD650LE cable (3.5-mm mini connector w/ 1/4" adapter) on the way.

 I use my X-fi Elite Pro for music, movies, gaming and recording so I would need to do a little more work on it I guess? I have read through this thread and am a little confused so if someone would be kind enough to breakdown exactly what I would need to mod the Elite Pro. (PM if it will keep the thread tidy)
 Also, would I plug my Senn's into the breakout box, directly into the souncard or should I invest in a headphone amp for the best quality?

 Sorry for such a long first post, I promise this is just a build up of questions that needed venting so you shouldn't see too many of these.

 I would appreciate any help you can provide me with.

 mrjojoe


----------



## ]|[ GorE

Goodness me ! That cap is not a part of the analog stage !


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *]|[ GorE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Goodness me ! That cap is not a part of the analog stage !_

 

I don't have the schematics, but for single-ended circuits, the power supply is always part of the signal path.

 mrjojoe: It would be best to use an amp, because the breakout box's internal amp is poor quality.


----------



## mrjojoe

Thanks for the response cotdt. Sorry for going off topic but what amp would you guys recommend for the X-Fi and HD650 and how does the amp connect to the X-Fi? Also, any updates on hotrodding the Elite Pro?


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mrjojoe* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks for the response cotdt. Sorry for going off topic but what amp would you guys recommend for the X-Fi and HD650 and how does the amp connect to the X-Fi? Also, any updates on hotrodding the Elite Pro?_

 

The amp depends on taste. Gilmore Lite is a good option. You need a 1/8" phone to RCA cable, which is quite common at electronics stores. There have been some that have modded the Elite Pro, but you will have to go back into the thread and find those people. Send them a message and I'm sure they'll be able to answer your questions.


----------



## LeonvB

Quote:


 A better recommendation for the capacitor would be a 470uF Blackgate 
 

The power section will benefit most of a low ESR cap, but it'll be even be better with both a better AND a higher capacity cap. That specific cap acts as a buffer, and buffers are better when bigger: it'll give you more reserve when needed. Bigger caps have a tiny bit more leakage, but that shouldn't be too big a problem (esp. compared with the original one). 
  Quote:


 for single-ended circuits, the power supply is always part of the signal path 
 

It's not part of the signal path: you're input signal doesn't travel through the power supply. I think you mean the power supply always influences the signal quality?


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LeonvB* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The power section will benefit most of a low ESR cap, but it'll be even be better with both a better AND a higher capacity cap. That specific cap acts as a buffer, and buffers are better when bigger: it'll give you more reserve when needed. Bigger caps have a tiny bit more leakage, but that shouldn't be too big a problem (esp. compared with the original one)._

 

If you add a power switch to the soundcard, with 2200uF you can turn off the power and the sound card will still work for several minutes! So I would say it's overkill, but nothing is wrong with overkill. Smaller caps will have lower inductance and resistance, which makes the cap a better filter at higher frequencies. There probably will not be any audible difference what value you choose, though. I'm just saying that the Blackgate sounds better because it's a Blackgate, not because the capacitance is larger. Reason is because people are asking questions like "Can I use 2200uF computer-grade capacitors?" I don't think they will create the same difference I heard with the Blackgates.

  Quote:


 It's not part of the signal path: you're input signal doesn't travel through the power supply. I think you mean the power supply always influences the signal quality? 
 

It's a matter of semantics, I guess. The ground is shared, for example, and hum from the power supply will be hum in your signal, which you will hear.


----------



## kipman725

just reading this guid and thinking instead of using expensive ERS paper why not get better sheilding from a metal plate in a plastic bag stuck onto the card?


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kipman725* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_just reading this guid and thinking instead of using expensive ERS paper why not get better sheilding from a metal plate in a plastic bag stuck onto the card?_

 

yes, it should work the same.


----------



## ]|[ GorE

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kipman725* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_just reading this guid and thinking instead of using expensive ERS paper why not get better sheilding from a metal plate in a plastic bag stuck onto the card?_

 

Did that a year ago with a Oxford Compass kit;made no difference whatsoever.


----------



## LeonvB

Quote:


 I'm just saying that the Blackgate sounds better because it's a Blackgate, not because the capacitance is larger. Reason is because people are asking questions like "Can I use 2200uF computer-grade capacitors?" I don't think they will create the same difference I heard with the Blackgates. 
 

Agreed. If someone thinks of another cap type, the Nichicon "Muse" KZ (KG you suggested is updated to KZ) would be a good choice, but NOT the computer grade capacitors. Did you test the "runtime" with an amp in the setup? 
 BTW Blackgate alone does make quite a difference too.


----------



## phalanger

I would like to report another successful LM4562 mod. 

 The soundcard used is an XFi XMusic which i purchased a few days ago. The opamp came directly from national semiconductor, 11$ shipping fee (for that a UPS bus drove up to my house and i had to sign for the insured package, so i don't think i was overcharged, altough regular airmail in a padded envelope would've worked for me..)

 The result is very impressive. The difference in sound is immediately clear, the basses are tighter, highs are cleaner, the whole sound is, subjectively, improved quite dramatically. I have not changed the power capacitor (yet).

 As for the actual procedure.. 
 I cut off the old chip using a fine sidecutter, used copper wick to clean up the solderbumps from the connector pads (this will help proper placement of the new chip even if it doesnt look neccesary). 

 By far the hardest part for me (very shaky hands due to tiredness..) was placing the chip perfectly into position and keeping it there while fixating the first leg.

 Once the first leg is soldered just royally apply tin to each leg, and use copper wick to remove the excess tin. This took no more then a minute or two, much easier then the placement part!

 I was really in no shape to do this sort of thing when i did it.. but patience is not one of my virtues.. now that i'm able to actually *see* it properly on the closeup, I realize I could've removed a bit more tin but i'll leave that for when i do the capacitor bit 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Other notes: I did not bother to ground my soldering station but did do the procedure barefoot. I set the temp knob on the solder station about 1/3 the way up (~250C). No need to get hotter then needed to melt tin.

 Sorry for the lengthy post but maybe someone who plans to do this mod finds some information in it.. And for those who doubt: yes its very much worth the trouble.

 Finally a big thank you to cotdt for doing this mod and posting about it! Knowing I could improve it made me decide to get an XFi and i'm very happy I did. Before the mod, I had mixed feelings about the sound.. I only did the opamp mod yet so far but wow what a difference.. Thanks!

 Result:


----------



## ROBSCIX

Maybe it may help to put down some hot glue to hold the chip in the proper place prior to soldering it. I guess nobody has decided to put in chip sockets instead? so you could try out different amps. Though the LM are very nice soudning chips.


----------



## soloz2

there isn't really room for sockets or anything like that. Recall we are working with SOIC op-amps here.

 Basically you want to solder one pin and then you can twist the op-amp into place and then solder the diagonal pin, go back and reset the first pin and then go on to the rest


----------



## Albaholic

For those of you having problems with space for the blackgate cap. You can also solder the cap onto the back of the board and it will work fine. (this of course is if you have room under the card.)


----------



## Calroth

As to the "glue down the op-amp before soldering" thing... you can do that with a paste flux. If you're doing surface-mount soldering and don't know why you'd need flux, I recommend finding out!

 As to the chip socket thing, the BrownDog range of adapters are well-regarded. Whether you'll have room in your computer for it is another matter...


----------



## phalanger

Another question to cotdt or anyone else that may know:

 I checked my local hifi component store and they have regular black gates and 'nonpolar' black gates. The latter are said to be better and cost accordingly, but are they fit for this situation?


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *phalanger* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Another question to cotdt or anyone else that may know:

 I checked my local hifi component store and they have regular black gates and 'nonpolar' black gates. The latter are said to be better and cost accordingly, but are they fit for this situation?_

 

Of course. I'm surprised that they sell Blackgates locally.


----------



## phalanger

Me too, and very pleased 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




http://www.hificollective.co.uk/comp...gate_caps.html

 (thats not my local store.. but shows them all)

 Nonpolar would be the red ones i take it? they come in 470uF max. Could you explain in two sentences what the difference is between regular and nonpolar?


----------



## M3NTAL

Anyone thought of using the FK series Blackgate cap instead of the Standard? There is a 1000uf 16v model or a 220uf 16v.


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *phalanger* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Me too, and very pleased 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




http://www.hificollective.co.uk/comp...gate_caps.html

 (thats not my local store.. but shows them all)

 Nonpolar would be the red ones i take it? they come in 470uF max. Could you explain in two sentences what the difference is between regular and nonpolar?_

 

the color of the nonpolars can be red or black. the nonpolars are bigger. certain applications require nonpolar caps.


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *M3NTAL* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anyone thought of using the FK series Blackgate cap instead of the Standard? There is a 1000uf 16v model or a 220uf 16v._

 

probably a better choice, now that i think about it.


----------



## M3NTAL

I am having an impossible time finding a site that I can just click and purchase a cap this evening instead of having to fax/e-mail/call.


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *M3NTAL* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am having an impossible time finding a site that I can just click and purchase a cap this evening instead of having to fax/e-mail/call._

 

You can get ELNA Silmics at Digikey. They are twice the size of the corresponding Blackgates, so they must be damn good!

 Edit: Okay, not quite twice as big, but 1.5X as big. splaz sent me some and I'm putting them into my amp.


----------



## phalanger

Maybe a bit of a dumb question but before I do something stupid.. Shorting the 22uF caps is done by just making connections between the two pins of each of the 4 caps?


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *phalanger* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Maybe a bit of a dumb question but before I do something stupid.. Shorting the 22uF caps is done by just making connections between the two pins of each of the 4 caps?_

 

yeah, shorting them is the same as removing the capacitors and putting a wire across where the capacitors used to be. Except it's not necessary to remove the capacitors.


----------



## phalanger

Ok thanks. 
 One more question (hope its not getting annoying yet..)

 I'm about to take a ride to the store that has blackgates, but it seems they have the nonpolar high end series only upto 470uF at 16v. Now I know that this should work just fine, but I plan to use the card with a 595 and (for now) without a dedicated amp. And since you mentioned earlier that higher capacity will give the output more drive, would I maybe be better off with a 2200uF regular blackgate instead of a 470uF one from the nonpolar series?


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *phalanger* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ok thanks. 
 One more question (hope its not getting annoying yet..)

 I'm about to take a ride to the store that has blackgates, but it seems they have the nonpolar high end series only upto 470uF at 16v. Now I know that this should work just fine, but I plan to use the card with a 595 and (for now) without a dedicated amp. And since you mentioned earlier that higher capacity will give the output more drive, would I maybe be better off with a 2200uF regular blackgate instead of a 470uF one from the nonpolar series?_

 

nonpolar =)


----------



## phalanger

Well it turns out the voltage is just a maximum.. so I got a Blackgate non-polar 1000uf 25v cap (Nx series). According to the ppl at the hifi store these put the regular series to shame. Granted, theyre more than 3x as expensive too. I paid 12.80 euro or so versus 4 euro for the regular one.

 Another benefit of these is that they are smaller then the regular series. I forgot to put a reference item in the picture but its maybe 3cm tall and 1.5cm wide, pretty modest.

 Another final question: are capacitors like these sensitive to mechanical shock? (ie when it falls on the ground can they get internal damage, or am I worrying over nothing? (yes it fell on a floor - I didnt do it!)


----------



## cotdt

They should be fine after 1000 hours of burn in. The nonpolars take especially long to burn in, which is why I opted for the polars. Also, with the same capacitance, the nonpolars are twice as big. I decided I wanted as much capacitance as I could get, so I opted for the polars. But like you mentioned, many people who have used the nonpolars have been awed by them.


----------



## BlizzofOZ

I have an XtremeMusic board that I'm interested in hotrodding...

 What online sites offer the Black Gates?

 I've ordered from Digi-Key and Mouser, but I can't find them there.

 Thanks!


----------



## soloz2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *BlizzofOZ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have an XtremeMusic board that I'm interested in hotrodding...

 What online sites offer the Black Gates?

 I've ordered from Digi-Key and Mouser, but I can't find them there.

 Thanks!_

 

not to be rude, but refer to the OP and/or read through the thread. It has been mentioned numerous times where you can get Blackgates


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *BlizzofOZ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have an XtremeMusic board that I'm interested in hotrodding...

 What online sites offer the Black Gates?

 I've ordered from Digi-Key and Mouser, but I can't find them there.

 Thanks!_

 

You can use the Elna Silmic from DigiKey, instead of the Blackgates. They are probably just as good as the standard Blackgates.

 Edit: soloz2 beat me to it. Yes, they are mentioned in the first post.


----------



## BlizzofOZ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *soloz2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_not to be rude, but refer to the OP and/or read through the thread. It has been mentioned numerous times where you can get Blackgates_

 


 Not to be rude, but please re-read my question...

 I'm looking for these components to be orderable *online*. I could be mistaken, but Part Connecxion and Percy Audio look to be a mail order.


 Cotdt, could you direct me to a part number of the Elna's? I'm a newb and wouldn't want to order the wrong part. I don't see any product called Silmic.

 Thanks!


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *BlizzofOZ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Not to be rude, but please re-read my question...

 I'm looking for these components to be orderable *online*. I could be mistaken, but Part Connecxion and Percy Audio look to be a mail order.


 Cotdt, could you direct me to a part number of the Elna's? I'm a newb and wouldn't want to order the wrong part. I don't see any product called Silmic.

 Thanks!_

 

Digikey Part Number 604-1059-ND


----------



## BlizzofOZ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cotdt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Digikey Part Number 604-1059-ND_

 

Thanks very much for taking the time to look it up for me!


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *BlizzofOZ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks very much for taking the time to look it up for me! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

No problem. Everyone needs to hear this mod in its full glory, including you.


----------



## soloz2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *BlizzofOZ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Not to be rude, but please re-read my question...

 I'm looking for these components to be orderable *online*. I could be mistaken, but Part Connecxion and Percy Audio look to be a mail order.


 Cotdt, could you direct me to a part number of the Elna's? I'm a newb and wouldn't want to order the wrong part. I don't see any product called Silmic.

 Thanks!_

 

both Partsconnexion and Percyaudio both take orders via email with their full catalogs online. You can mail in payment if you like, but they both accept online payment


----------



## BlizzofOZ

Thanks Soloz2, good to know.


----------



## BlizzofOZ

I just put in an order at National Semiconductor for 3 samples on the LM4562 amp... nowhere did it show totaly price or shipping cost. Recieved a verification email, which I accepted. Message was displayed stating that it would at most 24 hours for review. Then recieved an email stating order will be shipped.

 Will I be charged? When?

 I hear others being charged something like $11, but I don't see that for me.


----------



## Seba

I just ordered three LM4562 and three "604-1059-ND CAP 1000UF 25V ELECT AUDIO RAD" from Digikey to Finland. Price was a little bit higher than ordering only samples from National Semiconductor but it saves me the trouble to hunt down the appropriate capacitor from Finland's stores which didn't seem to have anything good in their lists.


----------



## BlizzofOZ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Seba* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just ordered three LM4562 and three "604-1059-ND CAP 1000UF 25V ELECT AUDIO RAD" from Digikey to Finland._

 

Seba... sorry, I'll fix my post. I meant that I ordered samples from National Semiconductor.


----------



## M3NTAL

I ordered one of the FK Polarized and one of the NX Non-Polarized caps from Percy. I am not sure what the sonic differences will be.

 Anyone have a reccomendation as to which one might be "better" ?


----------



## Seba

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *BlizzofOZ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just put in an order at National Semiconductor for 3 samples on the LM4562 amp... nowhere did it show totaly price or shipping cost. Recieved a verification email, which I accepted. Message was displayed stating that it would at most 24 hours for review. Then recieved an email stating order will be shipped.

 Will I be charged? When?

 I hear others being charged something like $11, but I don't see that for me._

 

You might be the lucky one to get samples free of charge.


----------



## phalanger

I just got done soldering on the Blackgate nonpolar 1000uF 25v, and shorting the caps near the main opamp. This completes my XFi mod since i don't plan on doing the shielding paper thingy. 
 The Blackgate will take a while to burn in so i cant really comment on its sound yet, I'll post an update when it seems to be settled in a bit.

 Again many many thanks to cotdt for both his initial post as well as the excellent support to the questions me and others had/have about it. You rule.

 Heres a pic of the new capacitor on the board:









 And the shorting of the opamp capacitors:





 Yes that is copperwick you see.. I hope that doesn't violate some ethical code 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 i couldnt get the tin to bridge the connections by itself and got impatient, then saw the wick and figured why not..

 Re: M3NTAL: the people at the audiophile store i got my cap say the nonpolar ones are superior in every aspect over the polar ones, and swear by them.


----------



## BlizzofOZ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Seba* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You might be the lucky one to get samples free of charge._

 

I didn't hear that... free samples AND free shipping?!? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I don't have that kind of luck...


----------



## phalanger

I read that Black Gate capacitors are no longer being produced.. 

http://www.hificollective.co.uk/comp...ouncement.html

 Better get yours while you still can..


----------



## soloz2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *phalanger* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I read that Black Gate capacitors are no longer being produced.. 

http://www.hificollective.co.uk/comp...ouncement.html

 Better get yours while you still can.._

 


 rofl


----------



## phalanger

Not sure what it is that makes you rofl but if its the fact that its been rumored since years now then I can say i just pasted a link that was in English, since i heard it from the largest blackgate retailer in the netherlands, who posted the news of the definite stop of production today.
http://www.degroefaudio.nl/dg_nieuws.php?vNr=63


----------



## ROBSCIX

So can you guys who have done the Cap replacement mod tell me what you guys hear now that you installed the better quality cap?


----------



## kirimaru

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So can you guys who have done the Cap replacement mod tell me what you guys hear now that you installed the better quality cap?_

 

i am still waiting for my blackgate,but i have modedd my card with sanyo wg 16v 470uF to satisfy your curiosity.
 to describe i have to say that the bass is wide,clean,immersive and deep.
 i have been wathing some movies and must say that the bass is rich and more enjoyble
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ,sometimes i feel that the bass is comming from everywhere,its like saying bass with more soundstage or perception.
 sorry guys but i cant any other way to describe the impovement.
 i hope that the card will sound even better with blackgate.


----------



## x99

Black gate caps going out of production is ROFL because the boy has cried wolf too many times. The big distributors said it last time too... and the time before that... and before that.


----------



## phalanger

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So can you guys who have done the Cap replacement mod tell me what you guys hear now that you installed the better quality cap?_

 

Mine is still settling in which is very noticable by the response of certain frequency ranges varying quite a lot, apparantly the nonpolar ones will take even longer to settle then regular BG's. 
 So I wont even try to judge it just yet. What I *can* say however is that the basses seem more present without being louder, the sound seems more organic and things that are supposed to be silent are really pitchblack silent now.

 As I said i'm not gonna judge a cap thats still setting in, but it is very clear that the change of capacitor has a very noticable effect on the sound, so if that's what you were wondering: yes it does make a noticable difference.


----------



## Seba

Digikey seems to be a really fast company. They have already shipped the capacitors to me. They'll get the LM4562's in their store on 19. April.


----------



## phalanger

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *x99* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Black gate caps going out of production is ROFL because the boy has cried wolf too many times. The big distributors said it last time too... and the time before that... and before that._

 

I went to Groef audio again today to get a few more blackgates of various capacities and ask what the deal with BG is. 
 Apparantly the problem is that the people making them are all far in their 70s and just cant go on. 2 years ago they already wanted to quit but decided to go on a bit longer due to 'pressure' from the hi-fi community. Apparantly they never passed their skills/techniques on to a younger generation.. So who knows maybe they will ressurect again in some form but for now production HAS stopped with no future plans.


----------



## gates_2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *phalanger* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I went to Groef audio again today to get a few more blackgates of various capacities and ask what the deal with BG is. 
 Apparantly the problem is that the people making them are all far in their 70s and just cant go on. 2 years ago they already wanted to quit but decided to go on a bit longer due to 'pressure' from the hi-fi community. Apparantly they never passed their skills/techniques on to a younger generation.. So who knows maybe they will ressurect again in some form but for now production HAS stopped with no future plans._

 


 Lol- I'm pretty sure that can't be the reason....it's not like the capacitors are handmade


----------



## phalanger

Yeah I don't know either nor pretend to 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 but i figured i'd pass along what the main dutch importer had to say about it. It's a bit weird story indeed, but I got a few spares anyway just incase.

 Btw shorting out the decoupling caps gave me a mixed feeling about the result, though it's nothing specific i can point out and may entirely be psychological, but it gave me the impulse to turn the volume down. So I ended up unshorting 2 of them again.
 I think I will just replace the decoupling caps (have we established by now that this is what they are there for or?) by better ones instead of shorting them. Would Blackgate NP 22uF 6.3v decoupling caps be a good choice or do i need 16v ones? Its 5V that runs through the card or no? (yes im n00b'ish)


----------



## soloz2

I'd stick w/ 16v bc that's what was originally on the card. I know we have only measured 5v, but just to be safe. I ordered some nichcons to replace the decoupling caps


----------



## phalanger

[ripped]


----------



## GloryField

is there a non-creative card that is cheaper, and can obtain the same sound as the X-Fi elite pro?


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GloryField* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_is there a non-creative card that is cheaper, and can obtain the same sound as the X-Fi elite pro?_

 

What exactly are you after and why do you want the same sound as the X-Fi Elite Pro? Do you need surround sound?


----------



## GloryField

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cotdt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What exactly are you after and why do you want the same sound as the X-Fi Elite Pro? Do you need surround sound?_

 

I was thinking about something along the lines of Auzentech Xplosion, or something in the $80 range. I will be using it with an Audio-Technica ATH-A500, no surround sound.

 Currently I'm on a really old sound blaster, about to order an X-Fi, or a different card.

 What is your view on the breakout box and the 5.25" module. Are they of any use other than coolness, and easy access?


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GloryField* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I was thinking about something along the lines of Auzentech Xplosion, or something in the $80 range. I will be using it with an Audio-Technica ATH-A500, no surround sound.

 Currently I'm on a really old sound blaster, about to order an X-Fi, or a different card.

 What is your view on the breakout box and the 5.25" module. Are they of any use other than coolness, and easy access?_

 

If you don't need surround sound, then you should consider getting an external DAC. The Zhaolu 2.5A is the best option, IMHO. And the breakout module might be convenient, but they degrade sound quality.


----------



## GloryField

Is it also OK for gaming, positional sounding-wise, for fps games? I do about 25% music, 25% fps games, and about 50% of games where position don't matter

 oh, and where to I buy a Zhaolu DAC?


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GloryField* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is it also OK for gaming, positional sounding-wise, for fps games? I do about 25% music, 25% fps games, and about 50% of games where position don't matter_

 

for 3D positional gaming, the X-Fi is your only option because it has a DSP that processes 3D sound. But for general gaming, just get whatever sounds good. What is good for music is good for gaming.


----------



## GloryField

Thanks, I think I'll go for X-Fi elite pro then, if it has decent SQ after mod. Also since it's on sale for $160 after a $70 rebate, with free shipping. However, I've never soldered before, and I have none of the equipments, any tips on how I would go about soldering it? I ordered a sample of 3 LM's already, haven't ordered blackgate yet


----------



## gates_2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GloryField* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks, I think I'll go for X-Fi elite pro then, if it has decent SQ after mod. Also since it's on sale for $160 after a $70 rebate, with free shipping. However, I've never soldered before, and I have none of the equipments, any tips on how I would go about soldering it? I ordered a sample of 3 LM's already, haven't ordered blackgate yet_

 

$160 is a great deal for the elite pro- creative must be looking to come out with a new sound card very soon...

 I'm very happy with the sound quality after the mod- it's much better!


----------



## GloryField

i'm completely dumb when it comes to soldering though. I only know how to build PC's, bad at dremeling, modding pc cases, etc.


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GloryField* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i'm completely dumb when it comes to soldering though. I only know how to build PC's, bad at dremeling, modding pc cases, etc._

 

just review the basic solder tutorials and you'll be well along your way. it's not that difficult. akin to putting together a PC, and many times easier than building a watercooled rig.


----------



## GloryField

can anyone point to a decent 60w soldering iron that I can purchase online? I'm in a relatively small city, Madison, WI, we don't have any of those hardware stores that sell caps etc. I'm guessing soldering iron wouldn't be cheap at menards either.


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GloryField* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_can anyone point to a decent 60w soldering iron that I can purchase online? I'm in a relatively small city, Madison, WI, we don't have any of those hardware stores that sell caps etc. I'm guessing soldering iron wouldn't be cheap at menards either._

 

Depends on whether you want to get into this hobby or whether this is a one-time affair. If you think you may get deeper into this hobby in the future, then go for the Hakko 936.


----------



## GameBlaster

Ok, I did the first mod, I replace the opamp with LM4562 in X-Fi Elite Pro and it is of course as anyone did and said about it, My HD595 bass is clearly present now I before I always describe it the low-bass high-end, also the treble is much improved and listening at high volume is more comfortable to the ear, but I didn't hear the improvement of the vocals. I hope I'll hear it after changing the caps to the black gate or shorting the four caps and Applying ERS paper. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 So what kind of improvement I'll get after doing the next mods ?


----------



## soloz2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GloryField* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i'm completely dumb when it comes to soldering though. I only know how to build PC's, bad at dremeling, modding pc cases, etc._

 

you'll be happy w/ your x-fi. If you are uncomfortable modding your card you can always send it to myself or any one of the other capable people here to mod it for you.


----------



## BadassBob

Great, I sell the X-Fi a few months back and now I see the Franken-Fi edition. Why do you people do this to me? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 "My names Bob, and Im a member at Head-Fi". I love this hobby, always something for everybody 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## DSlayerZX

For anyone that is not comfortable with soldering

 I recommand this site

http://tangentsoft.net/elec/movies/

 It gave a very detail tutorial of what to do and what kind of equipment you should get.

 It is lengthy, but its worth it


----------



## BlizzofOZ

I posted earlier about ordering LM4562 samples from National Semiconductor and not recieving any kind of payment option.

 I also just received an email stated that order was shipped. I view my order status and it clearly shows price of samples and shipping as free.

 Has anybody ordered samples for free... including shipping?


----------



## soloz2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *BlizzofOZ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I posted earlier about ordering LM4562 samples from National Semiconductor and not recieving any kind of payment option.

 I also just received an email stated that order was shipped. I view my order status and it clearly shows price of samples and shipping as free.

 Has anybody ordered samples for free... including shipping?_

 

yes, this has been discussed a few pages back. I suspect you used a .edu email address?


----------



## Imvd85

GameBlaster, I also have Sennheiser HD595 headphones and I want to ask you do you turn the creative volume knob higher to get the same volume you were getting with these headphones in the x-fi main output before the mod? 

 I'm asking because in specs the default NJM2114 op-amp has a much higher output current capacity, 60mA vs 26mA of the LM4562, so I assume there should be a difference. People who have used the card with sennheiser HD series or other high-impedance headphones before and after the mod please comment on that.

 Thanks.


----------



## BlizzofOZ

Well... I first used my home address. When I logged in, it stated that I would be charged something.

 I did see that post about someone using their address from school, so I thought why not try using my work address?

 So, using my work address I didn't get charged for anything... I was expecting pay for the shipping. I guess not...


----------



## soloz2

you should be fine. they offer free samples for educational purposes, and probably for people they suspect might order from them... ie. corporations or industrial use.


----------



## BlizzofOZ

Well then it that case, very cool!

 Thanks for the input...


----------



## soloz2

no prob. 


 I'm waiting for UPS.... my order from percyaudio will get here today


----------



## Pm@c

Ok frick this ive put this off for too long, I think im gonna go buy a cheap soldering iron at a local store and order the parts tonight. anything changed since the original post? any suggestions to make this modding easier or w/e?


----------



## GameBlaster

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Imvd85* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_GameBlaster, I also have Sennheiser HD595 headphones and I want to ask you do you turn the creative volume knob higher to get the same volume you were getting with these headphones in the x-fi main output before the mod? 

 I'm asking because in specs the default NJM2114 op-amp has a much higher output current capacity, 60mA vs 26mA of the LM4562, so I assume there should be a difference. People who have used the card with sennheiser HD series or other high-impedance headphones before and after the mod please comment on that.

 Thanks._

 

well at high volume I measured the SQ but I think volume level is same provided that the card were in the lowest PCI slot, what is interesting is that I install my moded X-Fi Elite Pro on other PC (close to graphics card in 2nd PCI slot) I was surprise by the sharp increase in volume as crank it up but it whereas on my PC the increase in volume level is not the same


----------



## phalanger

My nonpolar 1000uF blackgate will still take a few more weeks to be fully settled in but its been about a week now and it performs pretty consistent by now. The resulting sound combined with the 4562 opamp is *very* nice. The basses are very strong (try portishead's first album on this baby..) without being boomy, the highs are detailed and clear and the sound as a whole is quite pleasant. Fluid and natural of character (try norah jones, dido). It can definately *wow* you when good music is played at proper volume.

 (observed over a pair of mordaunt-short speakers and sub, still eagerly waiting for my headphones to arrive, not in a A/B comparison so take it with some salt.. it sounded ok before but now its much more lively and dynamic, subjectively ofcourse..)

 With these modifications the XFi becomes a very usable source component for music, which it isnt really in its factory form. Highly recommended! 
 According to cotdt it can even stand up to atleast the cheaper DACs, I havent tested this as I dont have a DAC (thank you, cotdt, i owe you a beer. you posted your mod at the perfect time for me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) nor feel like i need one at this point. The stock Xfi sound is really in a different league. So doubters, yes go find that iron and try this at home! Its really not that hard and you don't need soldering experience to pull this one off (insert standard disclaimer)

 I'm not sure what the current opinion is on the 4 22uF capacitors near each opamp.. Is it clear what theyre there for yet and if they can safely be shorted in all setups (using amp, headphones directly in xfi, etc.)


----------



## ichiboy

I'm very excited about this, before this mod became popular I was considering spending a lot more on an external DAC to do bitperfect to.

 Are any of you guys going to the head-fi meet by any chance? I have all the parts but not too much experience soldering or anything, would anyone mind helping me out 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




?


----------



## Gautama

nvm


----------



## afireinside

Hmm was going to get a dac ah lite to then i saw this, might as well mod mine and not have to monkey around with using onboard for my mic. Time for new headphones instead! Great mod work 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Anywhere to get the blackgate cap without having to order by fax/mail/phone?


----------



## Seba

Today I got three Elna Silmic II 25V 1000uF capacitors from Digikey. Still waiting to get the LM4562's probably next week.


----------



## Imvd85

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GameBlaster* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_well at high volume I measured the SQ but I think volume level is same provided that the card were in the lowest PCI slot, what is interesting is that I install my moded X-Fi Elite Pro on other PC (close to graphics card in 2nd PCI slot) I was surprise by the sharp increase in volume as crank it up but it whereas on my PC the increase in volume level is not the same 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

The position of the sound card couldn't have been the reason for the different volume levels. There are two system volume knobs to check, that is the Master volume (which is the one related to the hardware, in our case Creative) and the Wave volume (which is related to Windows OS and for best perfomance it should always be 100%, this way you avoid digital attenuation). And don't forget the application's own volume, which is also digital. Plus, in applications like winamp there are also different ways of volume control, linear and logarithmic, that affect greatly the way volume changes (for winamp go to output plugin's configuration window to check).
 Quite possibly the two computers had different wave or application volume settings.

 What I asked you was, provided that only master volume is used and all other volume controls are 100% or out of the equation, is the new op-amp weaker than the default op-amp when driving your HD595s?


----------



## soloz2

well I've been at my X-fi for a while now since getting my Blackgates and Nichcons yesterday afternoon. I replaced the 4 Jamicons next to my main op-amp first and they went very smoothly. The Nichicons I got to replace them are quite a bit larger, but they fit nicely as they are not any wider, just taller. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 here's a pic of them from a slight angle so you can see





 Then I moved on to the power cap. For some reason the negative leg was really in there! the solder just would not melt at all!!! I had to crank my soldering iron up to like 700F just to get it to melt! I'm not sure what the problem was, but it wasn't flux bc I used it... I'm still struggling to get the hole clear so I can get the new Blackgate installed... the rest of the caps went easily enough so I'm not sure what the deal is with this one...


----------



## GameBlaster

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Imvd85* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The position of the sound card couldn't have been the reason for the different volume levels. There are two system volume knobs to check, that is the Master volume (which is the one related to the hardware, in our case Creative) and the Wave volume (which is related to Windows OS and for best perfomance it should always be 100%, this way you avoid digital attenuation). And don't forget the application's own volume, which is also digital. Plus, in applications like winamp there are also different ways of volume control, linear and logarithmic, that affect greatly the way volume changes (for winamp go to output plugin's configuration window to check).
 Quite possibly the two computers had different wave or application volume settings._

 



 Of course I don't have to mention that since I'm advanced user
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ,

 (Winamp + ASIO.dll + Creation Mode + Bit-perfect Playback ) and the mixer settings were all the same in both PC setup.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Imvd85* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ What I asked you was, provided that only master volume is used and all other volume controls are 100% or out of the equation, is the new op-amp weaker than the default op-amp when driving your HD595s?_

 

well I didn't install new power filter caps yet, but I don't think the new op-amp weaker than the default op-amp from my judge of listening. 
 May be the differentiation in my both PCs has something else I'll repeat this in other different PC and see what will be revealed.


----------



## Seba

soloz2, what are the specs for the 4 capacitors you replaced the old Jamicons? Any sign of improvement in the sound?


----------



## soloz2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Seba* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_soloz2, what are the specs for the 4 capacitors you replaced the old Jamicons? Any sign of improvement in the sound?_

 

They are Nichicon FG series audio grade caps. 22uf 25v. I purchased them from Percyaudio along with some ERS paper and the Blackgates. 

 here is a pic of a Nichicon right next to the stock caps




 and the blackgate 1000uf 16v next to the stock 220uf 16v




 A close up of the LM4562 and Nichicons




 A close up of the Blackgate power cap





 And the finished product





 I'm using Vista so the driver issues are still troubling and SQ is not as good as in XP, but the modded card sounds slightly better then the unmodded card in XP. I'm sure as support grows I'll be able to get even better sound out of this card. For now I'm very pleased with the results. The noise floor is much lower, with better imaging and stereo separation. The soundstage is wider, so it should be even better for gaming. Bass is slightly more impactful as well. I'll have to wait for the caps to burn in of course, but for it sounds better from the get-go which is what I had hoped for.

 I cannot comment on how much difference the Nichicon's made as I did that mod along with the Blackgate. Overall I think the largest difference was made with the new LM4562 op-amp.


----------



## Pm@c

So do you guys still short out the... what are they called??

 And perhaps could someone give a detailed parts list with URL linkings (can they be shipped to Canada?). Im gonna do this in a couple weeks and I still cant find all the parts I need online.


----------



## soloz2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pm@c* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So do you guys still short out the... what are they called??

 And perhaps could someone give a detailed parts list with URL linkings (can they be shipped to Canada?). Im gonna do this in a couple weeks and I still cant find all the parts I need online._

 

I'm not sure why you can't find all the parts... you can get a sample of the op-amp from national and the caps and ERS paper can be had at Partsconnexion

 I did not short the caps, but instead replaced them with audio grade caps


----------



## afireinside

Is there anywhere to order the caps and ERS paper ONLINE and not over the phone or fax? It baffles me that a store can have a website yet require a phone order :X


----------



## Pm@c

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *soloz2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm not sure why you can't find all the parts... you can get a sample of the op-amp from national and the caps and ERS paper can be had at Partsconnexion

 I did not short the caps, but instead replaced them with audio grade caps_

 

Well What is national? Like im not up to par on the wording.. i need a little help...


----------



## DSlayerZX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *soloz2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_well I've been at my X-fi for a while now since getting my Blackgates and Nichcons yesterday afternoon. I replaced the 4 Jamicons next to my main op-amp first and they went very smoothly. The Nichicons I got to replace them are quite a bit larger, but they fit nicely as they are not any wider, just taller. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 here's a pic of them from a slight angle so you can see





 Then I moved on to the power cap. For some reason the negative leg was really in there! the solder just would not melt at all!!! I had to crank my soldering iron up to like 700F just to get it to melt! I'm not sure what the problem was, but it wasn't flux bc I used it... I'm still struggling to get the hole clear so I can get the new Blackgate installed... the rest of the caps went easily enough so I'm not sure what the deal is with this one..._

 

Like I said probably few hundred posts ago, the whole dam x-fi sounds card act as a large heat sink. to heat up the solder on the leg of the capacitor is hard. All the heat you apply onto the card will be transfer to the heat sink and even... the card 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Yeah, i realized that the card it self. (touching on the side of the card ) actually heated up when I doing soldering. That made me almost drop my x-fi to the ground 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 but with the right tool, you should be fine


----------



## soloz2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pm@c* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well What is national? Like im not up to par on the wording.. i need a little help..._

 

umm... the company that makes the op-amp... national semiconductor.

 had you taken the time to read the first page (you should read the entire thread) you would have known that. There is even a link!

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *afireinside* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is there anywhere to order the caps and ERS paper ONLINE and not over the phone or fax? It baffles me that a store can have a website yet require a phone order :X_

 

you can email both percyaudio & partsconnexion. I have ordered from both electonically.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DSlayerZX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Like I said probably few hundred posts ago, the whole dam x-fi sounds card act as a large heat sink. to heat up the solder on the leg of the capacitor is hard. All the heat you apply onto the card will be transfer to the heat sink and even... the card 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Yeah, i realized that the card it self. (touching on the side of the card ) actually heated up when I doing soldering. That made me almost drop my x-fi to the ground 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 but with the right tool, you should be fine_

 

yeah, I got it but it was a PITA. I just wasn't expecting there to be that much difference from one side of the card to the other. I was just getting impatient


----------



## LeonvB

Strangely enough I had the same problem removing the power cap from my card: one of the legs didn't want to let loose. Even ruined the Jamicon on it's way out. Not a great loss for this world...
 Unfortunately the opamp hasn't arrived yet, I'm using the time before it's arrival to burn in the black gate. Using a K701 unamped on the card shows a big improvement in dynamics.


----------



## afireinside

Quote:


 you can email both percyaudio & partsconnexion. I have ordered from both electonically. 
 

I guess that's what I'll do :\ Don't feel very safe giving CC info via email though.


----------



## soloz2

you can pay via paypal if you would prefer.

 I know this works for percyaudio


----------



## ichiboy

^ yup, the email and paypal worked for me as well. It was 38 bucks total for both the paper and battery shipped (with the brutal california tax too, naturally ).


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ichiboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_^ yup, the email and paypal worked for me as well. It was 38 bucks total for both the paper and battery shipped (with the brutal california tax too, naturally )._

 

battery? are you battery-powering the X-Fi? that would be a neat idea for a clean power source.


----------



## ichiboy

Oops, I meant power filter capacitor, my bad. But yeah, a battery would be an interesting idea.


----------



## Pm@c

But dude look at this: http://www.national.com/pf/LM/LM4562.html#Availability

 i can get the LM4562MA or the LM4562MAX which are both SOIC. I dont know what ****ing one to get...


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pm@c* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_But dude look at this: http://www.national.com/pf/LM/LM4562.html#Availability

 i can get the LM4562MA or the LM4562MAX which are both SOIC. I dont know what ****ing one to get..._

 

they are the same...


----------



## Pm@c

How was i to know that? so really just 4 x LM4562 (cause i use surround speakers) and one Blackgate 2200uf 16v capacitor and the job is done? Sounds easy. Only thing is for hte samples u have to be part of a company? What I did was use my university email address but used my home mailing address. Hopefully I can still get the opamps. Also if I use a hotmail addres would i still be able to get them? I might not be able to access my university address as I forget hte password


----------



## Pm@c

Damn looks like I might have to use a hotmail address. I havent gone on my university email for a long time. Unless.. could I use my work email and still get them sent to my home? I dont even work in the audio industry, but how else would i get samples?


----------



## phalanger

Everyone can request samples, you dont have to be an engineer or student.. They will probably charge you for 's&h' though, 10-20$ depending how many. Max order is 3 in a week.


----------



## Pm@c

9.77 for 3. Is that a good deal when some people are getting them for free?


----------



## Pm@c

3 sucks too.. i need 4 (since im doing surround sound) so i gotta wait another week as well...


----------



## PPkiller

how u guys short the capacitor? useing short wire or conductive pen?


----------



## phalanger

Pm@c: try to keep this thread a bit compact for those who need to plow through it all before they do the mod (something you didnt do judging by your questions )

 Yes, 9.77$ for 3 opamps is a fair deal.. some got theirs for free but most had to pay for it and often more then 9.77$. 

 PPkiller: doesnt really matter much. They're close together so you could just bridge it using tin if you have a little patience.. I used short bits of copper wire.


----------



## Seba

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *soloz2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_They are Nichicon FG series audio grade caps. 22uf 25v. I purchased them from Percyaudio along with some ERS paper and the Blackgates. 

 *PICS REMOVED*


 I'm using Vista so the driver issues are still troubling and SQ is not as good as in XP, but the modded card sounds slightly better then the unmodded card in XP. I'm sure as support grows I'll be able to get even better sound out of this card. For now I'm very pleased with the results. The noise floor is much lower, with better imaging and stereo separation. The soundstage is wider, so it should be even better for gaming. Bass is slightly more impactful as well. I'll have to wait for the caps to burn in of course, but for it sounds better from the get-go which is what I had hoped for.

 I cannot comment on how much difference the Nichicon's made as I did that mod along with the Blackgate. Overall I think the largest difference was made with the new LM4562 op-amp._

 

I couldn't find the appropriate Nichicons from Digikey, so maybe I just order 22uF 25V Elna Silmic II's for the card. I already have 1000uF 25V Elna Silmic II waiting to be installed.

 Edit: Oh, and what is the lead spacing and diameter for those 4 caps? Is the lead spacing 2,5mm and diameter 5,0mm or 6,3mm?


----------



## Pm@c

Sorry phlanger but I have another question. First off the primary mod is just the blackgate capacitor and the opamps right? Then cotdt mentioned a jamicon recap. What does that involve? What sort of values will I need, and exactly how many jamicons (and where are they) do I have to replace for a whole recap? What does the recap do for the card?


----------



## soloz2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Seba* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I couldn't find the appropriate Nichicons from Digikey, so maybe I just order 22uF 25V Elna Silmic II's for the card. I already have 1000uF 25V Elna Silmic II waiting to be installed.

 Edit: Oh, and what is the lead spacing and diameter for those 4 caps? Is the lead spacing 2,5mm and diameter 5,0mm or 6,3mm?_

 

I believe that's the correct lead spacing, but I didn't measure. diamater 5.0mm will fit although it's slightly larger then the stock jamicons.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pm@c* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sorry phlanger but I have another question. First off the primary mod is just the blackgate capacitor and the opamps right? Then cotdt mentioned a jamicon recap. What does that involve? What sort of values will I need, and exactly how many jamicons (and where are they) do I have to replace for a whole recap? What does the recap do for the card?_

 

a whole recap is exactly what it sounds like... you replace every cap on the card. You take the values off the card itself and then buy all new caps, desolder the original caps and put new ones on. 

 You'll really only get better SQ with changing the caps that have been suggested. On top of the op-amp and blackgate I have suggested replacing the decoupling caps with some nichicon fg 22uf caps.
 the rest of the caps will really just give the card more reliability. jamicons aren't known for lasting years and years...


----------



## Seba

Elna installed. I practiced desoldering on an old circuit board and it didn't work so great. Fortunately X-fi was much easier to desolder and solder and everything turned out good. Was a little bit scared if I ruin my card 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 First impressions: AKG K701 seems to have more bass and sounds great. Now some serious burn-in...


----------



## Pm@c

I know im a noob.. 

 does it matter which lead you solder where? is it clearly marked?


----------



## soloz2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pm@c* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I know im a noob.. 

 does it matter which lead you solder where? is it clearly marked?_

 

Yes!!!! the op-amp has to be placed in the correct orientation. The caps are polar so you have to get them on the card correctly.

 The good thing is that both the caps and op-amps are labeled. and the card is clearly labeled for the caps. op-amps not so much, but if you pay attention to the op-amp you take off and put the new one on the same way you're good to go.

 I suggest you watch the tutorials on tangentsoft.net. Warren explains the way to tell which lead is negative and positive in an easy to understand way. I think he even talks about SOIC op-amps.


----------



## pythagore

My Modded X-Fi Extreme music is on sale on Ebay. All 4 opamps has been replaced with LM4562.
http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...0746&rd=1&rd=1


----------



## jondl

Anybody want to do a group buy for the blackgate power filter? From my understanding, the total for 3 blackgates is $36. So, $12 a person. I just need 2 people so if you're interested give me a PM. Non-cc paypal only please


----------



## PPkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *phalanger* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Pm@c: try to keep this thread a bit compact for those who need to plow through it all before they do the mod (something you didnt do judging by your questions )

 Yes, 9.77$ for 3 opamps is a fair deal.. some got theirs for free but most had to pay for it and often more then 9.77$. 

 PPkiller: doesnt really matter much. They're close together so you could just bridge it using tin if you have a little patience.. I used short bits of copper wire._

 

thanks...

 hmm... is blackgate nx 1000uf 25v better then the blackgate std 2200uf 16v(in terms of SQ)?

 p.s. i think i'm getting my 3 opamp for free..


----------



## Fing

I tried this - unfortunately I seem to have pulled out the contact traces on the board when trying to remove the first opamp.

 Guess it's buggered ;p


----------



## PPkiller

cotdt,

 what method do you recommend for desoldering the opamp?


----------



## Seba

I ordered 22uF 25V Elna Silmic II's for replacing the caps near the op-amp. They are 6,3mm diameter so they are definately a little bit wider than the original caps. I think that they will fit just fine or with some little bending.


----------



## soloz2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PPkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_thanks...

 hmm... is blackgate nx 1000uf 25v better then the blackgate std 2200uf 16v(in terms of SQ)?

 p.s. i think i'm getting my 3 opamp for free.. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

the NX would probably be slightly better, but the standard is already a huge upgrade. You don't even need the 2200uf, just get a 1000uf 16v standard. It's smaller so it's easier to work with and it's more then big enough for this application. And it's about half the price of the 2200uf 

 16v is enough as the card should not ever have more then 12v

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PPkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_cotdt,

 what method do you recommend for desoldering the opamp?_

 

I used a heat gun... which works until I get a good desoldering iron... which is really only a matter of time 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Seba* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I ordered 22uF 25V Elna Silmic II's for replacing the caps near the op-amp. They are 6,3mm diameter so they are definately a little bit wider than the original caps. I think that they will fit just fine or with some little bending._

 


 I don't think they'll be be too hard to place on the board, but I don't think you'll be able to get them to look nice either. the Nichicons I used were 5mm and they fit nice and tight . take a look at the pics I posted a couple pages back if u want.


----------



## Seba

I looked at the specs for your Nichicon FG caps and they are indeed 5mm thick. Fortunately there are room around the 4 caps so I could bend them outwards. It doesn't matter how they look, priority is in SQ.


----------



## phalanger

I finally finished up my mod today by replacing the decoupling caps with 22uF/16V Blackgates.

 Final pic with all mods in place (for left+right anyway, surround channels maybe some other time.. i dont use them for anything important)






 As you can see the BGs are quite a bit bigger then the jamicons they replace, which is why they cant stand up straight but its fine this way.

 And for those who hadnt read yet: soldering on this card is a bit crappy cause it spreads heat so well, i had to put my soldering stations temp potmeter in the redzone to get those buggers off properly. I would definately advise against using a 25w iron for the caps (the SOIC is the easiest part of this mod imo)

 Im very happy with the result but i already noted that a few posts back.. Happy modding!


----------



## Seba

It looks like that also 22uF Black Gates are 6,3mm wide so you have proved that it is possible to solder those on the card.

 I set my 40W iron at 450 degrees Celsius to solder properly the power cap. Will be using that temp also for op-amp and other caps.


----------



## phalanger

yeah 450 is the hottest mine will go i think, and i had to turn it almost all open to keep the tin melted well enough to remove/insert the caps.

 And yeah the 6,3mm caps fit fine.. you can either let the legs stick out a bit so the caps are lifted a bit then lined up neatly but a few mm above the board..
 .. or just pull them through as far as they will go like i did and then the last 2 wont really fit nice but atleast they're pretty tight to the board. I preferred this. 

 For the opamp i used significantly lower temperature setting btw.. not much hotness needed there and the connectors there are easier to damage (if i didn't misread i think someone in this thread did ruin their SOIC connector, though i don't know if heat was the problem.. also unless needed i wouldn't put a 450 celcius iron to the actual SOIC, myself. its not needed to melt tin. I used it about 1/3 the way up for that part of the mod (my station has a temp setting but no numbers on it.. its 175-450 i think) and it went easy (much easier then the caps)


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Fing* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I tried this - unfortunately I seem to have pulled out the contact traces on the board when trying to remove the first opamp.

 Guess it's buggered ;p_

 

just trace the broken contacts to the nearest capacitor/resistor, and use that instead.


----------



## phalanger

Yeah it should be fixable, wont look pretty but would increase the frankenstein character of it: i recommend you get the biggest power capacitator you can find for it and claim its all on purpose 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 would you care to share how you managed to remove the contacts along with the IC? Did you try to just rip out the chip or what 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (sorry not meaning to poke fun at your situation, but please do share so maybe someone else won't do the same)


----------



## phalanger

cotdt: I'm interested in changing the input opamp aswell. Can the same opamp used for the outputs be used here aswell or is a different chip needed (if so, which?)


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *phalanger* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_would you care to share how you managed to remove the contacts along with the IC? Did you try to just rip out the chip or what 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (sorry not meaning to poke fun at your situation, but please do share so maybe someone else won't do the same)_

 

get a small snipper and cut off the opamp leg by leg. then desolder the tiny bits of the remains. Yes, you can use the LM4562 as the input opamp as well. It should work well.


----------



## cotdt

Filburt tells me that the AD9631 is worth trying. Might be better than the LM4562.


----------



## phalanger

for recording specifically or for output stage aswell? [edit: checked the specs and its for the input position not output from what i gather, thanks for the suggestion, Ill probably order one and give it a try.]

 and yes to the precision sidecutter (the best ones for this have 'teeth' that are small enough to insert a mm orso *between* the legs of the SOIC and shaped so the cut takes place at the very lowest point, so that it can cut right at the PCB level and not 1mm above it.. theyre not pointy as to not damage the board, ask your specialist store if you arent sure. 
 This method is the safest for the soundcard as you dont have to mess with the connectors very long or hot. It is also the best way to not kill the old opamp in cases where that would matter (legs will just be a bit shorter each time 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)






 ^ like that (Piergiacomi, 15$ orso maybe 17 but worth it, quality tools are never a bad investment 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)


----------



## Vulpix

Anyone here selling a pre-modded card?


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Vulpix* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anyone here selling a pre-modded card?_

 

I think soloz2 offered to mod them a while back.


----------



## soloz2

yeah, i can sell u a card PM me if you are interested.


----------



## dregelmyller

I dont understand why people complain about the size of the opamp,
 its actually quite large isnt it ? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (atleast in closup haha)


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dregelmyller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I dont understand why people complain about the size of the opamp,
 its actually quite large isnt it ? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 (atleast in closup haha)
_

 

Nice... what camera/lens did you use to take that pic?


----------



## dregelmyller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cotdt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Nice... what camera/lens did you use to take that pic?_

 

Canon powershot a630 + reversed 50mm


----------



## Apocalypsee

Newbie here, sorry for n00bish question, but I want to done this mod on SBLive! 5.1 but some question:

 1) Is it worth it?
 2) Which one should I replace with LM4562?
 3) There are three power filter right next to DSP chip (I believe), do I need to replace all three?

 The only mod I've done is wrapping the card with antistatic bag to reduce EMI, but I can hear audible sound difference from this mod alone!
 Here's a pic of my card (SBLive! 5.1 Digital SB0220)
http://www.buydigital.co.kr/digital/...0220_large.jpg


----------



## soloz2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Apocalypsee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Newbie here, sorry for n00bish question, but I want to done this mod on SBLive! 5.1 but some question:

 1) Is it worth it?
 2) Which one should I replace with LM4562?
 3) There are three power filter right next to DSP chip (I believe), do I need to replace all three?

 The only mod I've done is wrapping the card with antistatic bag to reduce EMI, but I can hear audible sound difference from this mod alone!
 Here's a pic of my card (SBLive! 5.1 Digital SB0220)
http://www.buydigital.co.kr/digital/...0220_large.jpg_

 

this thread is specifically for the x-fi. You will need to start a new thread with your questions for the SBLive. Try the DIY section. the op-amp may work, but you'll have to research the op-amp that is currently used and make sure the pinout is the same.


----------



## GameBlaster

Did you guys confirm removing the four caps near each opamp? 

 What do you recommend: replacing them with better caps or save money by just shorting them or no need to short them , which option is worth ?


----------



## M3NTAL

the non-polarized caps can go either way.. there is no +/- correct?


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *M3NTAL* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_the non-polarized caps can go either way.. there is no +/- correct?_

 

That's the reason why they are called non-polarized.


----------



## BigFNDeal

soloz2, I sent you a pm regarding buying a pre-modded card from you.

 Thank you in advance for your time.


----------



## ]|[ GorE

I wont recommend anyone to do this mod since we dumb ****s are not frickin electronic engineers ! We are not 100% sure what the mod even does..


----------



## Pm@c

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *]|[ GorE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I wont recommend anyone to do this mod since we dumb ****s are not frickin electronic engineers ! We are not 100% sure what the mod even does.._

 

Meh my card is like 2 years old now, I cant really lose anything by modding it. If I screw it up Ill just buy a better card. But if I do it right, and it doesnt seem too hard, oh and I already have the blackgate at home (so i can mod this weeked) and 3 of the op amps, gonna have to order 1 more this week, since Im gonna be using surround. But if it makes a huge difference its gonna be just like getting a new card.


----------



## phalanger

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *]|[ GorE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I wont recommend anyone to do this mod since we dumb ****s are not frickin electronic engineers ! We are not 100% sure what the mod even does.._

 

Well apart from the shorting of capacitors (which i decided against) its just replacing parts with better quality parts.

 Having said that I do have a problem with my X-Fi, even though I'm not sure if it's due to the mod or not.. I posted it in the soundcard forum already but I'm curious if any other modders have experienced something similar, or has an explanation.

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showth...66#post2898266

 Please have a read and post any ideas either here or there, thanks. 

 My exact mod was:
 - 1000uF 25v nonpolar Blackgate in place of the 220uF 16v jamicon
 - 4x22uF 16v regular Blackgates instead of same rated jamicons at the decoupling position
 - 1xLM4562 opamp instead of whatever there was on L+R before

 the only thing potentially 'wrong' about this i can think of is that I modified the L+R opamp and caps but not the surround ones. But that didnt seem to be a problem for others.

 The soundquality when running is flawless (and absolutely breathtaking) and I still do not exclude other causes (i had some odd ASIO things happen, problem is i modded the card the day after I got it, so I'm not sure if it started after the mod or not)


----------



## LeonvB

Quote:


 4x220uF 16v regular Blackgates instead of same rated jamicons 
 

I think you mean 22uF, as there are no 4x 220uF to be found on the board.
 The other opamps have nothing to do with the opamp you replaced. They're all on separate signal paths, so you can replace them more or less at will.


----------



## phalanger

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LeonvB* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think you mean 22uF, as there are no 4x 220uF to be found on the board.
 The other opamps have nothing to do with the opamp you replaced. They're all on separate signal paths, so you can replace them more or less at will._

 

yeah 22uF for the decoupling caps, sorry, Ill correct the post above to prevent confusion. 
 And yeah i agree theres no real reason why replacing one path and not the others should be a problem, that i can think of. Im really not sure where to search the cause for this one, if one of the capacitors or the lm4562 was somehow not working then I assume there would be problems with the sound aswell which there isnt at all.


----------



## ichiboy

It's working 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




! I did the opamp, blackgate, and ERS paper on it. Wow, this sounds very good so far- a huge improvement from the sterile sound of how the x-fi used to sound. I'm guessing I'll have to burn it in a while before I can tell, but so far so good 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.

 Edit for stupidity- Oops, we have a problem! Although it did sound quite good , there was something about it that was bothering me. I finally noticed that my right side is getting significantly more volume than my left (I'm slow on these things... ). I was able to work this out by ear by using a channel test alongside an equalizer- which is working for the time being. Yet, I kind of find this unsettling and I was wondering if anyone had any suggestions on things to check for this.


----------



## phalanger

It looks like the bad news about this mod is starting to come in 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It could be that the power capacitor still needs to settle in a bit before it can give reliable output, but as you can see above and in the other thread i started about it, you're not the only one who has problems of one kind or another after applying this mod.
 I have some serious reservations now in advising people to apply this mod - the results seem too unpredictable.


----------



## jondl

I just did the opamp mod and so far everything sounds good so far! I ran into a small problem while soldering FOR THE FIRST TIME! I basically connected two of the legs on my opamp X_X and had to desolder and clean it up.. it was tough but i managed to get it off with poor methods i don't want to discuss 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I was a bit scared since i only got 1 opamp and the whole time i was saying to myself, "I should have gotten 3 just in case!" Anyway, after the first trial and error i got the hang of it and smooth sailing from there.


----------



## phalanger

I recommend you hold off with the capacitor mods until theres more clarity as to the problems several people have reported. 
 I'm going to try putting in a 220uF one instead of the 1000uF in an attempt to find a cause or atleast exclude one (i'm thinking maybe the stored electricity leaks back into the soundcard and/or motherboard).


----------



## cotdt

strange problem, phalanger. perhaps try a different power capacitor. i didn't seem to have any problems with using polar Blackgates. You are using the 3rd headphone jack, right? and not the first one?


----------



## LeonvB

The power cap mod is impossible to cause this kind of problems, provided you simply replace the cap with another cap as in a better and/or bigger one. I would advise people to keep using a polar cap, as that's what was used on the card originally.


----------



## phalanger

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LeonvB* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The power cap mod is impossible to cause this kind of problems, provided you simply replace the cap with another cap as in a better and/or bigger one. I would advise people to keep using a polar cap, as that's what was used on the card originally._

 

This is an assumption that you cannot rely on, and nonpolarity is not the problem. It has no electrical consequences, just means the cap doesnt care where the + goes. A bigger capacity does have electrical consequences.

 I just came back from Groef audio after having discussed this problem (and the mod itself) with them for almost 2 hours. These people custom-modify amplifiers and audio components for a living, and are reputed throughout the netherlands, they are extremely knowledgable in this field. Firstly, they *dont* modify Creative cards because *it brings too much trouble*, the creative card are of particularly fragile design, the PCB has numerous coppercores and the schematics are too shady. I didn't understand everything they told me but there are a few points i'd like to mention at this point.

 1) A too big power capacitor CAN give problems on a soundcard, not so much through backleaking as the cards power circuitry may not be able to handle it and isnt designed to handle it.

 2) opamps and especially high frequency opamps cannot just be interchanged and assume the stability of the circuit isnt compromised, even if the pinout is the same. It might work in most amp-scenarios, but the XFi is much more fragile/instable.

 3) The only Blackgates that are suitable for audio circuits are the Blackgate N-type (non-polar) - the polar ones they dont even consider for these positions as they are too crappy to expect a benefit.

 4) with soundblaster cards moreso then most other products, you cannot rely on it to work outside of its exact specifications. The buggyness of the XFi as it comes stock only underlines that.

 I will be trying various things in an efford to pinpoint this problem, however this is tricky to do and the reason why Groef doesnt modify Creative soundcards anymore.

 Talking to the guys at Groef made me realize that Gore ]I[ probably has a point when he says none of us know enough about this stuff to warrant these mods.

 They had a few addition ideas for modifications aswell but since they are much more complex I will save that for perhaps another post.
 Be careful and be sure to post any peculiar behavior you might get after modding..


----------



## cotdt

phalanger, while the points you brought up are valid, there has been several dozen of us who have performed these mods without any problems. As I understand it, the laws of physics are constant. That leads me to beleive that the problem is not these mods, but something else. I've been modifying sound cards long before the X-Fi came out, never with any problems unless I messed up somewhere.

 But I agree that Creative cards are buggy in general. I just don't think these mods are responsible for your problems, unless you did something wrong.

 BTW, I used a 10,000uF capacitor and it was rock stable, so a 2200uF capacitor should be fine. That eliminates #1.

 Before I started this thread I knew that there would be a percentage of people who would mess up their cards. I should post a warning.


----------



## RichyRich

Done this mod over a month ago and have not had any problems.


----------



## Seba

I can confirm that replacing the power capacitor makes wonders to the sound. Bass seems to be more clean and highs are sharper. I have no idea when I will get the remaining caps and op-amps but despite the problems some of you have here I'll go ahead and mod the card. If it blows up, then I have a good excuse to buy X-meridian or that new Auzentech X-fi -version.


----------



## ironeisnna

Ok...

 I just register to these forums to say that I am using the same exactly nonpolar capacitor as phalanger, for more than 10 days, my computer runs 24 hours for the capacitor to burn in and I have not notice any problems. I am using windows vista 64 bit, with bit matched output. The sound is clearly more "sweet" than the stock capacitor, but not a HUGE difference. I am using my Sennheiser 650 with a Russ Andrews HP-1 (the modified stello HP 100) amplifier to test it. I haven't change yet the opamp, so probably the capacitor is not the source of the problems for Phalanger's PC. 

 Anyways, I dont think though that the difference with the new opamps will lead me to cancel the purchase of a Russ Andrews DAC-1 and as probably that is the source of the problems, I ll probably keep the original opamps.


----------



## phalanger

[edit: i forgot to mention something..]
 Well it appears that the card is stable after replacing the 1000uF/16v NP by a 220uF/6.3v NP. I have since not been able to replicate the problem. [i know.. i'm not sure either if 6.3v is safe, but they dont have 16v220uF NPs and I think it's 5v only, but dont assume thats safe, it was more to try out the concept, as its most opposite to the huge beast i had there]

 I will not pretend to know the exact cause - but it would appear the capacitor was involved (and even that I cant be fully sure of but I'll spare the details..). I would have to put the old one back up and re-test to be 100% sure, but I dont know if I'm much inclined for the moment 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 maybe in the name of pseudoscience 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 but not right now, enough excitement for one day.

 About the constant nature of physics: yes in theory thats true, in reality some people have problems with their XFi while others don't (whether they are modified or not) - the instable nature of these cards makes it possible that some things cause problems on one system and not the next.
 Also remember that until yesterday I only raved about this mod because I didn't realize something was seriously wrong until I started to swap cables.

 According to the guys at groef (sorry if i seem to suck up to them but they are some of the most knowledgable people available on this subject) a too high capacity can overload the power supply circuit of the soundcard and over time cause damage, although they were more suspect of 1) the opamp swap and 2) the high faulty charge thats on our local tv/internet cabling here. I did route the tv/internet cabling through a belkin power cleaning thingy before i changed the cap, but it did not solve the problem, replacing the cap did.

 So whats the conclusion of all this? None yet.. Except to be on the lookout for any problems and report them so we can establish the stability of this mod and if needed optimize it. Cotdt: there were a few others who reported problems aswell, if it was only me I wouldn't have put the cause at the modification, but since a few more reported after I posted a question about it, I decided to play open cards so people know what they get into 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Not trying to question your knowledge on mods or this mod specifically, I still think its a great mod and the people from Groef were very interested aswell when I mentioned which opamp I had put on there. They also tried to explain the sonic relevance and disabling of the tiny 'tor' ic's, but it was above my head 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 are you familiar with them?


----------



## Pm@c

perhaps your card was faulty to start, didnt u say u modded it like 1 day after u got it... perhaps wait a little longer before modding it. Ive had my X-FI for 2 years, so i could give a **** if it dies from modding it, its either it gets better and im happier or it dies and i dont give much of a ****, i just buy a new one. 

 so yeah, im gonna be doing this mod REGARDLESS of what the guys at "groef" say. I could give less of a **** if they know what they are talking about, ill take the word of people who say that this mod sounds amazing


----------



## phalanger

well no need for all the **'s 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I agree this mod is great and have been saying so all along. I don't give many stars either about this card: i bought it specifically so that I could mod it (and possibly ruin it). It was well worth it. But resulting stability in short- and longterm is still worth discussing/consideration imo.


----------



## afireinside

Got my OP amps today... Practiced removing ICs on my old SBL 5.1 then pulled my x-fi out... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 What are all these little things around the op amp!!! I suck at soldering, no way I'll get that done. I need a desoldering wick for sure though, this bulb sucker thing I got doesn't work at all. 

 What a disappointment


----------



## phalanger

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *afireinside* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Got my OP amps today... Practiced removing ICs on my old SBL 5.1 then pulled my x-fi out... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 What are all these little things around the op amp!!! I suck at soldering, no way I'll get that done. I need a desoldering wick for sure though, this bulb sucker thing I got doesn't work at all. 

 What a disappointment 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

They are resistors. Solder wick is indeed essential to have around for this. If the resistors get in the way, practice your accuracy some more on a crowded board (or find someone with a steadier hand 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).


----------



## LeonvB

Quote:


 This is an assumption that you cannot rely on 
 

It isn't an assumption. While it's true that a higher capacity will lead to higher ESR (more leakage), the blackgates have lower leakage than other caps. In fact, to stay in range, you'd have to replace it with about 10x the capacity when compared to the original. Surprise, surprise... this is the originally recommended value for the mod. 
  Quote:


 opamps and especially high frequency opamps cannot just be interchanged and assume the stability of the circuit isnt compromised, even if the pinout is the same 
 

Correct. You'll have to check all the specs of the opamp. Assuming it's ok just because it has the same pin out isn't smart. Some opamps need higher capacity coupling caps, so beware.
  Quote:


 The only Blackgates that are suitable for audio circuits are the Blackgate N-type 
 

Lol. Any of the blackgate types beat the original cap. Plus your not in the audio circuit, your in the power supply section. About the only reason to use polar there would be to use 2, to eliminate noise (in a configuration as described on the blackgate pages). But given the environment (a PC), space restrictions etc. I see no need for that particular configuration.


----------



## qwerty009

Anyone know good replacement for input opamp (M33078) ?
 Btw can someone explain to me (like to 5 year old since my english ait too good) what are those 22uf decoupling caps for exacly? (the ones that are reccomended to be shorted). Little schematic would be great and would help me understand it much better.


----------



## phalanger

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LeonvB* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It isn't an assumption. While it's true that a higher capacity will lead to higher ESR (more leakage), the blackgates have lower leakage than other caps. In fact, to stay in range, you'd have to replace it with about 10x the capacity when compared to the original. Surprise, surprise... this is the originally recommended value for the mod._

 

That is true for the most part, although it's not only about possible leakage but also whether the cards power circuitry can deal with such a big capacity. But there is indeed not really a clear reason why it shouldn't, but it's possible.

  Quote:


 Correct. You'll have to check all the specs of the opamp. Assuming it's ok just because it has the same pin out isn't smart. Some opamps need higher capacity coupling caps, so beware. 
 

Yeah. And the OP probably did do research on it, for me personally it's hard to see for sure, there are definite character differences between the two opamps involved, but I lack the background knowledge to conclude the level of interchangeability.

  Quote:


 Lol. Any of the blackgate types beat the original cap. Plus your not in the audio circuit, your in the power supply section. About the only reason to use polar there would be to use 2, to eliminate noise (in a configuration as described on the blackgate pages). But given the environment (a PC), space restrictions etc. I see no need for that particular configuration. 
 

This is true also. The jamicons are not hard to improve on though 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 For power cap indeed regular blackgate would already be a good improvement. For the coupling caps I still would advise nonpolars, also they dont have to be 4x22uF, I'm using 2x10uF instead at the moment (NP) (experimental setup for now). Having said that, if budget isnt too tight then nonpolars are better performers allround.

 I'm sorry if I sounded a bit like a smartass in my initial post. Reading it back I mightve had a bit too much coffee that day 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 but most of it is still valid, just a bit overstated in some regards. 

 Another thing I want to stress to people who have had some channel fallout problems and L/R balance issues, and something to take care of for those who plan to do this mod: take good care to tin each chip leg well, and if you used copperwick to clean up excess tin, always re-lick that leg afterwards, it is not unthinkable to suck out so much tin that there is no solid connection anymore.
 I felt like mentioning this cause the how-to site i linked to early on in this thread may leave the impression you can just tin up then copperwick it and then its fine. But make sure each leg is properly tinned to the connector.


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qwerty009* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anyone know good replacement for input opamp (M33078) ?
 Btw can someone explain to me (like to 5 year old since my english ait too good) what are those 22uf decoupling caps for exacly? (the ones that are reccomended to be shorted). Little schematic would be great and would help me understand it much better._

 

they are coupling caps. they are put between the DAC and opamps.


----------



## Inzane

Received the opamp LM4562MA yesterday (only mod I will do is replace the opamp), is there anything else I should know? or could I get a few tips before I start soldering?


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Inzane* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Received the opamp LM4562MA yesterday (only mod I will do is replace the opamp), is there anything else I should know? or could I get a few tips before I start soldering?_

 

You should probably read this thread in its entirety, to make sure you know the proper techniques.


----------



## LeonvB

Quote:


 Yeah. And the OP probably did do research on it, for me personally it's hard to see for sure, there are definite character differences between the two opamps involved, but I lack the background knowledge to conclude the level of interchangeability. 
 

Ok, I've looked at the data.

 Input voltage is matched, pins are matched, output voltage is almost matched (LM4562 a little higher), LM4562 itself uses a little more power (few mA). 
 On the plus side: 
 LM4562 has 20V/us slew rate vs 3V/us of the old opamp. Distortion, noise rejection, etc.: it's all better. BUT...
 On the minus side:
 LM4562 is capable of delivering 23mA, while the old opamp can do 70mA. Also, the old opamp can handle low resistance loads better than the LM4562 (though it does lead to higher distortion). 

 The NJM4556 is specificly made for directly driving headphones, while the LM4562 is the better "preamp". My conclusion: it's close enough to use as a drop-in replacement, provided you know what you're doing. If you want to plug in your headphone without amplification, it's possible the original opamp is a better choice.


----------



## kirimaru

can someone please tell how long i have to burn in my blackgate nx for the optimal sonic improvement?
 should i burn in everytime when i turn on my pc? or just the first time?


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kirimaru* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_can someone please tell how long i have to burn in my blackgate nx for the optimal sonic improvement?
 should i burn in everytime when i turn on my pc? or just the first time?_

 

i heard some very strange things about the nonpolar blackgates that do not apply to standard blackgates. they say burn-in requires thousands of hours, and prior to that the capacitance is all screwy and it doesn't even act like a capacitor should. if you don't power the capacitor for a few months, you have to start burn-in from the very beginning. i wonder if this is true. i encourage people to try them, though.


----------



## kirimaru

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cotdt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i heard some very strange things about the nonpolar blackgates that do not apply to standard blackgates. they say burn-in requires thousands of hours, and prior to that the capacitance is all screwy and it doesn't even act like a capacitor should. if you don't power the capacitor for a few months, you have to start burn-in from the very beginning. i wonder if this is true. i encourage people to try them, though._

 

what do you mean that the nonpolar doesnt act like a cap? is it bad or good?
 thousands of hours
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ? do you think that is worth to wait too long and do you notice the sonic improvment gradually or after certain time?


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kirimaru* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_what do you mean that the nonpolar doesnt act like a cap? is it bad or good?
 thousands of hours
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ? do you think that is worth to wait too long and do you notice the sonic improvment gradually or after certain time?_

 

nah, they're just rumors. just try it for yourself. i've only used the polar blackgates due to size issues.


----------



## kirimaru

well, the thing is that if i dont hear deference after 2 weeks,then i will try with other caps,and i am going to order nichicon kg gold,kz muse,elna silmic 2 and few others for the psu of my pc.


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kirimaru* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_well, the thing is that if i dont hear deference after 2 weeks,then i will try with other caps,and i am going to order nichicon kg gold,kz muse,elna silmic 2 and few others for the psu of my pc._

 

interesting idea. just be sure to fully discharge the large capacitors before removing them. A 10K resistor would work.


----------



## phalanger

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cotdt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i heard some very strange things about the nonpolar blackgates that do not apply to standard blackgates. they say burn-in requires thousands of hours, and prior to that the capacitance is all screwy and it doesn't even act like a capacitor should. if you don't power the capacitor for a few months, you have to start burn-in from the very beginning. i wonder if this is true. i encourage people to try them, though._

 

I would not be surprised.. I have had some *freaky* variances in sound with new nonpolar BG's.. The first hours it literally sounds as if a thick blanket is put over the speakers (and im not talking audiophile-ear detail, it literally sounds as if youre playing through only subwoofers, this slowly faded). Also volume going up and down, etc. The first day orso it sounds very messed up, from then on the blankets fade away and the sound evens out to just right.
 I have heard this is one of the reasons (besides price, size) that they are almost only used in custom jobs not production: it takes weeks before the unit will sound as it should. 
 The extreme varying sound and volume make me believe it if you'd say it doesnt live up to its specs by a long shot, until its settled in a while. But the final result is worth it.


----------



## kirimaru

well,for those who dont want to try or buy the ers sheet,there is a another very simple way to shield your card.
 the alternative is to use a "static bag",yes static bag which come with your pc hardware.bcause some of these bags are also made to shield the hardware from emi and rfi.
 i am using static bag instead of ers sheet(overpriced).
 when i aplied the staticbag to my card,the sonic improvment was significant
 the trebels was more clear,tranparent and detailed.
 the bass,i couldnt believe what i was hearing,i was able to hear very low frecuency bass notes in the music,bass was more clear and with more depth ,not like the muddy bass of the stock xfi.
 guys you should try it,your are not going to loose anything and its just take 5 minuts.


----------



## GameBlaster

Did the 1000uF 16V polar blackgate today in my X-Fi Elite Pro and shorted the four caps according this link:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attac...chmentid=78157

 and I got No Sound 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 , I resolder the four shorted caps back to the card and the sound restored , so the picture in the link above is not applicable so I decide to not short any caps I' wont do any mod at after installing blackgate. 
 I appreciate the SVM feature used in X-Fi very much which one of the best implementation features combined with superb SRC it helps to get a very comfortable listening volume level by moderating the dynamics of sound.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Anyway Great Mod cotdt


----------



## qwerty009

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cotdt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_they are coupling caps. they are put between the DAC and opamps._

 

Something like this? : 



 But why is there 4 of them for 2 channels?


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qwerty009* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Something like this? : 



 But why is there 4 of them for 2 channels?_

 

they are in parallel... so 22uF + 22uF


----------



## Inzane

Just finished with the mod, improvement was day and night! no more harsh highs and distorted instruments!!

 Im now able to listen to recordings I used to refuse to listen to
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 , the sound stage got wider and the bass is much accurate with a RICH CLEAR treble.

 I gotta admit I was doubting how much of a major improvement it would do but it really did make a huge diffrence. Thanks to cotdt and the head-fi members for bringing up important questions that hepled me alot in the modding process.


----------



## kirimaru

i dont know whats is going wrong,i am burning in the blackagate nx 24h continuosly since a week and i dont hear any sound diference.


----------



## soloz2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kirimaru* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i dont know whats is going wrong,i am burning in the blackagate nx 24h continuosly since a week and i dont hear any sound diference._

 

First, is the power cap the only upgrade you did? if so it will be harder to hear differences in sound then say if you replaced the op-amps. 

 We have been talking at length about how long it takes blackgates to burn in and you haven't even reached the 200hour mark. It might need some more time


----------



## kirimaru

sorry,its the first time i am using blackgate,i never had to wait to long for other caps and thats why i am confused.
 about opamp i am using the ad8599,for me the ad8599 sound more wider soundstage and realistic than the lm4562(in my opinion).


----------



## Herbal

Racked up about 100hrs on my 1000uf Blackgate (non-polar) and since putting it in there's definately an improvment.

 Bass seems a bit deeper, more rounded and has a nice kick/punch to it. Vocal range seems to be tighter now as well.

 This is running through an EL34 PP amp and integrated tube preamp through into my mishmash of drivers.


 Can't wait to change the opamp but gonna leave the blackgate burn in for another week or two just to see if it develops any problems like a few have mentioned.


----------



## elbrickodaviso

If anyone is willing to mod my XtremeMusic for me, I'd be happy to pay for it. If you have the parts to mod these things and can send it back to me modded and in perfect condition, PM me please! I'd much rather have this card modded than have to buy an 0404USB and let my card go to waste!


----------



## ]|[ GorE

Why not use the AD8620 for the opamps ? It's meant to work with low voltages(like the +/- 2.5V supplied to them from the card) and it has a max current output of 60mA with much better slew rate,THD,distortion,lower crosstalk.
 I have replaced the stocks with AD8620s for your information.


----------



## ]|[ GorE

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Herbal* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Racked up about 100hrs on my 1000uf Blackgate (non-polar) and since putting it in there's definately an improvment.

 Bass seems a bit deeper, more rounded and has a nice kick/punch to it. Vocal range seems to be tighter now as well.

 This is running through an EL34 PP amp and integrated tube preamp through into my mishmash of drivers.


 Can't wait to change the opamp but gonna leave the blackgate burn in for another week or two just to see if it develops any problems like a few have mentioned._

 

I fear alll your hear is a result of the placebo. The biggest improvement comes with the change of opamps and the addition of 0.1 uF caps left out by Creative.

 Read the DAC ,Voltage Regulator and opamp datasheets and look at their ideal implementation diagrams.Notice the missing capacitor ?


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *]|[ GorE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why not use the AD8620 for the opamps ? It's meant to work with low voltages(like the +/- 2.5V supplied to them from the card) and it has a max current output of 60mA with much better slew rate,THD,distortion,lower crosstalk.
 I have replaced the stocks with AD8620s for your information._

 

i have tried the AD8620 and AD8066, but the LM4562 sounds better to my ears. the AD8620 is thin and bright.


----------



## ]|[ GorE

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cotdt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i have tried the AD8620 and AD8066, but the LM4562 sounds better to my ears. the AD8620 is thin and bright._

 

Yes,the AD8620s do sound thin than the stock JM4556 but they have an excellent soundstage and instrument separation,IMO.The vocals were the cynosure with the JM4556 with a tubby base.Not so with the ADs.

 Maybe I'll try the LM4562s.


----------



## qwerty009

Did caps mod today. Shorted those 20uf front channel caps and replaced 220uf Jamicon with 1200uf 16V from one broken Abit nf7 mobo (im sure it aint the best but since it has greates capacity it shoult be better?). It's hard to get good cap where i live 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Opamp has been replaced some months ago. Went for ad8620 becouse had nothing else good available. 
 About the improvment...
 When i changed opamp there was a clear improvment but after caps mod - well maybe there is something but definetly nothing big. 
 Some pics:


----------



## phalanger

I think quality of the capacitor is more helpful for the sound then its capacity, but you can't do much worse then the jamicon so it shouldn't hurt.

 About the coupling caps I wonder if I'm the only one where shorting them made the sound worse instead of better. Without coupling caps I get distortion when I drive XFi volume higher than 50-60%. With coupling caps theres no distortion at any volume.
 I'm now using 2 coupling caps instead of 4, 10uF each, seems to be enough. Notice they are parallel not serial so to use 2 the remaining 2 arent shorted but taken out the circuit.
 Also I tried some anti static/interference 'paper' and it was more noticable then I expected, made the sound a little more laid back and 'rounded'.


----------



## qwerty009

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *phalanger* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 About the coupling caps I wonder if I'm the only one where shorting them made the sound worse instead of better. Without coupling caps I get distortion when I drive XFi volume higher than 50-60%. With coupling caps theres no distortion at any volume.
 I'm now using 2 coupling caps instead of 4, 10uF each, seems to be enough. Notice they are parallel not serial so to use 2 the remaining 2 arent shorted but taken out the circuit._

 

I ran RMAA test after shorting the caps and it showd basically same results as before so it should be safe to say that there didnt come extra distortion.

 Btw can u point out what caps are for left and what for right channel?
 And theres still one thing bothering me, if those are coupling caps ment for blocking dv voltage from dac then how someone mesured 2,5V DC from them? (there was post like this somewhere here).

 About the big cap... Low ESR cap was reccomended. should ESR value be as low as possible or is there some limits? Are there some other important values that i should turn intention to?


----------



## soloz2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *janderclander14* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does anybody know which is the correspondence between the surround op-amps and the output channels? I only have 3 lm4562 amps and I would like to replace those corresponding to the 5.1 output.

 Thanks!_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *soloz2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have not looked closely, but they are probably directly in order with the way the jacks are.... shortest traces and all._

 


 Can anyone confirm or disprove this? I haven't found any data to verify my thoughts here.


----------



## TonePusher

Just got my extrememusic card off ebay. When I opened the box, I found most of the caps bent. Should I worry about this or if it works, then it should be ok? Thanks.


----------



## ]|[ GorE

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qwerty009* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I ran RMAA test after shorting the caps and it showd basically same results as before so it should be safe to say that there didnt come extra distortion.

 Btw can u point out what caps are for left and what for right channel?
 And theres still one thing bothering me, if those are coupling caps ment for blocking dv voltage from dac then how someone mesured 2,5V DC from them? (there was post like this somewhere here).

 About the big cap... Low ESR cap was reccomended. should ESR value be as low as possible or is there some limits? Are there some other important values that i should turn intention to?_

 

Yep,it measures + and - 2.5 V. A couple of members including I have measured.


----------



## Mr.Austin

Just have to say ammazing guides guys, very well described and intuitive.


 Thanks for posting these great guides.


----------



## qwerty009

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *TonePusher* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just got my extrememusic card off ebay. When I opened the box, I found most of the caps bent. Should I worry about this or if it works, then it should be ok? Thanks._

 

If it works then it's 100% fine. Bent caps wont do anything, if it bothers you you can "unbend" them 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Btw, found one interresting cap that is for sale in local store: link (search for: 215-5657 ) What this audio grade exacly means and is it suitable for soundcard (as power filter cap)?


----------



## phalanger

I don't know which 2 are for left and which for right, i suppose you could find out by just removing one cap and see what channel stops working 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 but for most purposes its not important to know.. you want the same caps on left and right side anyway. 
 If you were to use 2 instead of 4 (i dont see any real advantage to doing this (it gets rid of 2 caps but since theyre parallel i dont think theres a real benefit, but im not an expert on it) I did it as a temporary measure to help find the cause of my problem I mentioned before) I just happened to have only 2 suitable caps around. Either way you dont want to parallel different size/type capacitors.

 I didnt see the post about 2,5vDC being measure from the coupling caps.. on which side of the caps was this? 

 on ESR.. lower is better. in theory a perfect cap would have zero ESR. ESR is the degree of resistance that comes as a side effect of the capacitor (someone correct me if i misdefined that). it is electric 'loss', so less is better.


----------



## LawnGnome

Capacitor leads should always be kept as short as possible. and shouldnt be as long as shown in the original mod.


----------



## robbie

Hello. 

 I've done the opamp modification, but it did not resolve the problem I'm having with my x-fi, -it's distorting at high volume when delivering to an amplifier. 

 Can this be the powercap not delivering enough power ? It's fine at lower volumes, but when raised above 60% everything goes to hell, and there is noticable crackle particularly heard in bright parts of tracks.

 Anyone else have this problem with their x-fi ?


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *robbie* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hello. 

 I've done the opamp modification, but it did not resolve the problem I'm having with my x-fi, -it's distorting at high volume when delivering to an amplifier. 

 Can this be the powercap not delivering enough power ? It's fine at lower volumes, but when raised above 60% everything goes to hell, and there is noticable crackle particularly heard in bright parts of tracks.

 Anyone else have this problem with their x-fi ?_

 

If you've had the problem since before the mod, then it is most likely your amp. What amp are you using? Are you using headphones or speakers? More information would help.

 BTW, you should use the X-Fi at 100% volume at all times. Volume attenuation should be done on the preamp/amp via a volume pot. Doing volume control on the computer decreases sound quality.


----------



## phalanger

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *robbie* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hello. 

 I've done the opamp modification, but it did not resolve the problem I'm having with my x-fi, -it's distorting at high volume when delivering to an amplifier. 

 Can this be the powercap not delivering enough power ? It's fine at lower volumes, but when raised above 60% everything goes to hell, and there is noticable crackle particularly heard in bright parts of tracks.

 Anyone else have this problem with their x-fi ?_

 

Yeah i have the same problem. somewhere around 60% volume distortion sets in and gets worse as the volume goes up. I don't think its the amp cause it still happens without an amp, but it could be a combination of things, i don't know.. Not having coupling caps didnt seem to help for me in that regard, did you short those or not?


----------



## cotdt

Strange... I never had this problem, even without an amp.


----------



## robbie

I found the bugger !

 This was the fault : crackling/distorted sound, particulary high-freq. sounds like vocals on "Feist - The Water". 

 This is when the error occured : when connected to an amplifier for speakers, regardless of what kind, -I have two and they are fault-free.

 The sound was OK on the amp when master set to below 60%, and the sound was always OK when listening with headphones (DT660). 

 I've always used the headphones through the front socket on my chassis. The wire going from the x-fi to the front port of the chassis is the bugger. Bin it, now. 

 For thoose of you who did not get any improvements in the bass department, it's probably due to a poor solder. I soldered the chip with no solder (just used what was left on the card), and that wasn't enough, so I heard no bass improvements due to one of the connectors not beeing soldered good enough. Just pressing on the opamp resolved the problem, but I'll have to add more solder when I get hold of it.

 Oh, and no I have not shorted the other caps, I've only changed the opamp. I didn't understand what shorting thoose caps was good for, but I think it was somthing about delivering enough power to the opamp or making the current out of the opamp stable ? I need stable output, as I have a sensitive and to me, expensive amplifier, for my speakers. 

 This is true, cheap bliss !


----------



## cmos.gr

Hello to everyone!

 Just found this mod and Im ready to make it cause i dont use my x-fi any more lol..(4gb ram and x64 win = @#$@$ drivers for x-fi..)

 To the point.

 I can only find LM4562MA-ND Is that right ?

 And something else...
 They are too expensive i thing...:S

 5.78 $...
 Is there any shop in europe so i can have cheaper shipping..

 Thx for readin


----------



## phalanger

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cmos.gr* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hello to everyone!

 To the point.

 I can only find LM4562MA-ND Is that right ?

 And something else...
 They are too expensive i thing...:S

 5.78 $...
 Is there any shop in europe so i can have cheaper shipping..

 Thx for readin 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

yeah thats the one;

 Digi-Key Part NumberLM4562MA-ND
 ManufacturerNational Semiconductor
 Manufacturer Part NumberLM4562MA/NOPB
 DescriptionIC OPAMP AUDIO DUAL HF 8-SOIC

 5.78$ is not a lot of money to spend on a very significant upgrade to your XFi. Youre likely to find a good use for it again after modding it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 About the distortion on high-volume, I dont use any breakout or anything - but i no longer directly connect my issues with this mod in general, it is still working but with issues, maybe i damaged something during the experimental approach I chose, I dont know, I do know one of the pin connectors of my power cap has been increasingly messed up from having not done a great job at removing the original one. This may or may not be a problem, not sure. I may end up taking it to Groef to have them take a look at it :| Ill post if anything worth mentioning comes up, other then that I still endorse this mod, and think the risk is no more then the risk that should be assumed for any mod: youre pretty sure to void your warranty 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I might give Gore ]|['s suggestion for the AD opamp a try aswell.


----------



## cmos.gr

5.78$ is not much but 

 65 Euro its TOO expensive for 4 chips... :S


----------



## Ken B.

This might sound crazy, but is it possible to do this kind of mod to a SB Live?

 I have one of the last versions of this card, which I bought about 1 year ago, and although the card is labeled as an "Audigy", it is actually just a SB LIVE with an improved s/n ratio.


----------



## phalanger

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Ken B.* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This might sound crazy, but is it possible to do this kind of mod to a SB Live?_

 

This thread is about X-Fi's specifically to not make it too confusing.. In general: yes you probably can, find out what opamps it uses and find a matching better one, maybe change a few caps.. its applicable to just about any soundcard but for specifics on other cards maybe better start a new thread.
 Also I wouldnt expect miracles.. SBLives are not very good soundcards, XFis have much higher potential to unleash.


----------



## phalanger

Update: It appears I got rid of the distortion now at full volume. Not sure what did the trick. The power cap I currently have in is a 220uF nonpolar, so the capacitor doesnt have to be any larger then that. (not saying it might not be useful). coupling caps still the odd un-parallelled 10uF NP setup. I think maybe the powercap made a faulty connection since the connector is damaged afterall, and thats the only thing i messed with since it last had distortion.

 Cheap sonic bliss in full effect here again 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 (well cheap.. ended up investing in some DIY stuff along the way but thats gonna come in useful soon enough 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)


----------



## qwerty009

I wonder how 2xOPA 627 (with adapter) will sound? Heard it HiQ stuff, but price is also hi.

 Measured today my front channel DC voltage (caps shorted and ad8620 as opamp) and it showed 180mV. Kind of high or what? Of cource amplifier should have cap against DC of its own and it wont damage headphones but it's kind of hi anyway and caps should be unshorted?


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qwerty009* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I wonder how 2xOPA 627 (with adapter) will sound? Heard it HiQ stuff, but price is also hi.

 Measured today my front channel DC voltage (caps shorted and ad8620 as opamp) and it showed 180mV. Kind of high or what? Of cource amplifier should have cap against DC of its own and it wont damage headphones but it's kind of hi anyway and caps should be unshorted?_

 

something is obviously wrong if the DC is that high


----------



## qwerty009

Theres what shematic from DAC output to opamp input looks like:



 (opamp 
 pin 1: out1
 pin 2: -in1
 pin 3: +in1
 )


----------



## Seba

Op-amp and coupling caps changed. Op-amp was a real b*tch to desolder and solder. Few times I soldered couple legs together. Caps were easy to change and they fit nicely.

 I have a small feeling that my left channel plays louder than my right channel. Would that be the result that one of op-amp legs isn't soldered properly? Is there some program which I could measure the levels of each channel (dB meter would be handy but I don't own one)


----------



## qwerty009

RMAA (5.5) should do the job.
http://audio.rightmark.org/download.shtml
 SMD (de)soldering guide, good tips, if someone is interested. http://www.infidigm.net/articles/solder/#desoldering


----------



## chipped

hey guys, nice guide you got here. i am in australia and i can not find the exact op amps and capacitors you have recommended. will these ones be ok instead?

 op amp: IC OPA2134PA OPAMP AUDIO HI PERF DIP8
http://www.jaycar.com.au/products_uploaded/ZL3972.pdf

 Capacitors: are any of these suitable?
http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView...Max=&SUBCATID=
 or
http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView...Max=&SUBCATID=

 thanks in advance


----------



## Seba

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qwerty009* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_RMAA (5.5) should do the job.
http://audio.rightmark.org/download.shtml
 SMD (de)soldering guide, good tips, if someone is interested. http://www.infidigm.net/articles/solder/#desoldering_

 

Thanks for the link. Everything seems to be OK except stereo crosstalk seems to have differences:

 R -> L L -> R
 Crosstalk at 100 Hz -103.9 -108.8 dB
 Crosstalk at 1 kHz -102.2 -101.5 dB
 Crosstalk at 10 kHz -98.9 -98.5 dB

 Edit: Second test showed some improvement: 106.6 / 105.1 & 102.2 / 102.6 & 98.3 / 98.2


----------



## qwerty009

Btw if anyone is using RMAA then they should check that from recording properties "line in" is selected. If "wave" is selected then theres a digital loopback and analog stage is not tested. 
 If u are unsure withc is selected then there is an easy wat to test it. Before pushing "start test" test button you must calibrate signal to approximately -1db. Now if you remove 3,5mm stereo cable from line in<->front out. and signal is still there then u are using digital loopback.


----------



## GameBlaster

According to RMAA the quality of this mod in X-Fi Elite Pro should matches the quality of Emu1820 or X-meridian ?


----------



## cmos.gr

So...what is better ?

 bridge caps ?
 Or change them with bigger?
 (and if..bigger =... ?)

 Something more.I cant find in my country blackgate cap...
 Its something special about that ?
 what if I install something else ? :S


----------



## ichiboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Seba* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Op-amp and coupling caps changed. Op-amp was a real b*tch to desolder and solder. Few times I soldered couple legs together. Caps were easy to change and they fit nicely.

 I have a small feeling that my left channel plays louder than my right channel. Would that be the result that one of op-amp legs isn't soldered properly? Is there some program which I could measure the levels of each channel (dB meter would be handy but I don't own one)



_

 

I have the same problem! Except on mine the right channel plays louder than my left one.... Grrr


----------



## cotdt

most likely the opamps are not properly soldered. it's easy to fix.


----------



## phalanger

Yeah L/R differences probably have to do with a faulty connection, give each solder point a quick once-over, also for the caps. 
 If all those are checked it might be some burn-in thing though personally even though burnin some caps gives weird issues, I did not get any L/R problems. And I got the most notorious caps: nonpolar blackgates, 5 of them. Temporary problems included extreme initial distortion and even the card failing to start up initially with new caps. 

 Eventually my XFi looks like this now:





 Covered in anti interference plastic.
 All the red ones are BG nonpolars. A bunch of spares in the baggie on the background, but Im sure I'll find a use for them soon enough 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Very happy with how it turned out despite having some problems along the way.


----------



## OverlordXenu

Would anyone be willing to recap the entire board, and change the opamps (except for the recording one) on my x-fi Platinum and isolate it (or whatever) with the ERS paper and insulation? If so, for how much?

 I just don't want to risk my sound card myself. I can solder well...but I would get too nervous and screw up.


----------



## cotdt

Wow phalanger, those Blackgate Nonpolars are either the worst electrolytic capacitors in existance, or the best. hehe


----------



## Herbal

Phal - Why cramp 4 caps in a small space? Could you have not soldered a pair on the back of the board? (ignoring any PCI obstruction issues).

 Would look a lot neater....although results would be the same.


----------



## kirimaru

oh sorry i forgot to mention that,if you are going to use static paper on the card ,please put a layer of fome on the card first and then the static paper,bcause one side of static paper is conductive.


----------



## robbie

I've had some serious equipment the latest years, and been thinking of getting a propper source in form of a cd player or some dac for a PC, but THIS thread ... oh cheap bliss. All previous investments now shine like never before. 

 Big thumbs up for this guide !!! I only changed the opamp, but what a difference...


----------



## fat pat

ive got an extreme music, sometimes i just use my headphones right out the back of the card, with no intermediate amp. othertimes i uses a panasonic shelf system as an amp and run my headphones from that. will this mod still work well with both(more concerned about cans straight out the back of the card)


----------



## soloz2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fat pat* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ive got an extreme music, sometimes i just use my headphones right out the back of the card, with no intermediate amp. othertimes i uses a panasonic shelf system as an amp and run my headphones from that. will this mod still work well with both(more concerned about cans straight out the back of the card)_

 

yep! I wouldn't short the coupling caps though. replace them with higher grade caps instead


----------



## ROBSCIX

Anyway you look at it. Capacitors used to block DC will degrade the sound quality. It doesn't matter what quality of cap you use it will still hurt your sound quality. Another reason bypassing these caps is no big deal is because most inputs will have their own set of caps on the inputs especially with higher quality gear. They are redundant on the card and are there as a just in case measure. The LM4562's help with any DC voltage on the outputs aswell. If you don't want to bypass them then the only other option is to use better caps. They all degrade your signal when used in this manner.


----------



## DSlayerZX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *phalanger* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 Eventually my XFi looks like this now:




 Covered in anti interference plastic.
 All the red ones are BG nonpolars. A bunch of spares in the baggie on the background, but Im sure I'll find a use for them soon enough 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Very happy with how it turned out despite having some problems along the way._

 

nice caps even though they do look kind of... weird 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Common, burn them in already and tell us about your new mod


----------



## cmos.gr

This is ok ?

 CapXon 3300μF 16v


----------



## soloz2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cmos.gr* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_



 This is ok ?

 CapXon 3300μF 16v_

 


 I'd personally go for a smaller cap of higher grade


----------



## cmos.gr

Well thats a prob cause this is the only one I can find...

 You mean I may have a prob or its just not the best for this work we want ?


----------



## soloz2

well it depends on the specs of the cap... which I don't know. And since you didn't give a series I assume you don't know either.


----------



## cmos.gr

We will know for sure in 1 week or more 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 Maybe sub woofers will explode or X-Fi lol


----------



## phalanger

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cmos.gr* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_We will know for sure in 1 week or more 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			








 Maybe sub woofers will explode or X-Fi lol_

 

Nah if its a functional capacitor it will work fine. Question is whether it will do much better then the original.

 And yeah I couldve put those caps on the backside, but I'm not sure it would look 'better' perse  not like i see it very often anyway 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I had the powercap on the other side for a while but then it used two PCI slots. But to be honest it was mostly cause I didnt realize it was going to be such a tight fit with them, started to become apparant on the 3rd cap so decided to just try and squeeze them in there


----------



## cotdt

If you guys are driving headphones directly, the AD9632 would be a better choice than the LM4562.


----------



## Cor33

Hey guys, I have to say this is greatest thing I've ever found...thanks alot cotdt. I have all the parts needed and I'm almost ready to go, I just have one stupid question that I couldn't find in the thread and that is - which side (on the board) is positive/negative for the capacitor, the gray or black, I'm guessing the black is negative but just making sure.

 ....and one more thing is that when while I was taking off the old capacitor the heatsink on my card (DSP chip) came off, now if I am not using the crystallizer or any of that other crap would I really have to worry about that heating up?

 when I'm done this mod I'll tell you what I thought of it to add to the comments, I'm a little nervous though I've never solder such small electronics before....


----------



## cotdt

you're welcome,
 nah the heatsink is just a marketing gimmick. the DSP chip doesn't really get that hot. the older version don't even have the heatsink at all.


----------



## Herbal

Cor33 - You can put the heatsink back on quite easily.

 Just get some thermal paste and paste up the X-Fi processor and then clean a small section from each corner, apply a good bit of superglue to each corner and then hold down the heatsink onto the processor for a bit while the superglue takes hold. If you ever need to take it off a little twisting and it should pop off.


 Happened to my card, stuck it back on and not had any issues.


----------



## Cor33

cotdt- ya I figured it probably didn't get that hot, and actually I've heard its the older cards that have the heatsinks, now they don't come with one...I guess the newer cards are better with heat.

 Herbal-Thanks thats a good idea, I might do that just to be safe...


----------



## cmos.gr

Quote:


 which side (on the board) is positive/negative for the capacitor, the gray or black 
 

Gray = negative ( - ) at pole of the cap 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 @phalanger 

 I solder it on the ''back'' side for 3 reasons.
 1) It wont fit cause of some other smd there
 2) last pci on the motherboard so it wont fit to case
 3) No other PCI cards to worry about


----------



## Cor33

thanks cmos.gr Its soldered on now...

 I finally finished modding it, I can't belive I actually did it either...my hands were shaking like crazy ha... this sounds amazing!...now I have to let the blackgate burn in....and I was looking to buy a DAC in the 300-400 area! thanks again for this guide....awesome!


----------



## kirimaru

replacing the caps of psu really improve the sound quality.
 i just replaced 12v,5v,3.3v lines caps and the sound was better then i expected,
 first of all the music sounded more clean and soft,it sounded more opend with more sence of space,better positioning of instruments and bass is fuller and extended.


----------



## phalanger

Interesting. At the risk of somewhat deviating off topic, Im curious what rating caps were they? And what type of caps did you replace them with?


----------



## ]|[ GorE

The placebo effect is very strong in this thread.


----------



## DSlayerZX

not quiet sure what you mean by that.
 The improvement of changing opamp and capacitor are pretty well known through out the DIY forum.
 Some people report that they felt there is a difference by shielding the card with anti static bag which cost... nothing.


----------



## cotdt

]|[ GorE, if you used better headphones than the muddy Koss UR40, then perhaps you will notice differences more easily. With the Koss UR40s, all my equipment sounded the same, because it is so muddy.


----------



## DSlayerZX

ahhhh.... codtdt, seems like you have changed your headphone @@

 but anyway, may I ask, how much does your Zhaolu cost... thinking of getting a new source at the beginning of next quarter, but then... can't decide


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DSlayerZX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ahhhh.... codtdt, seems like you have changed your headphone @@

 but anyway, may I ask, how much does your Zhaolu cost... thinking of getting a new source at the beginning of next quarter, but then... can't decide_

 

Yeah I really like these new Denons. They are a mix of HD650 and K701. The bass is very nice, and it has a big soundstage though not as big as the K701's. But I really like these, more so than even the K701.

 My Zhaolu was $129 stock but now it sounds nothing at all like it originally did. The upgrades costed $240 or so. With shipping and everything it's around $400 total. It doesn't use opamps at all. I haven't heard any sources that I've liked better. This is definately the source to get, because it has so much modding potential.


----------



## PPkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qwerty009* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I wonder how 2xOPA 627 (with adapter) will sound? Heard it HiQ stuff, but price is also hi.

 Measured today my front channel DC voltage (caps shorted and ad8620 as opamp) and it showed 180mV. Kind of high or what? Of cource amplifier should have cap against DC of its own and it wont damage headphones but it's kind of hi anyway and caps should be unshorted?_

 

i get the same reading as well... opamp changed and cap shorted.. 180mv from 1 channel and and 155mv from the other...


----------



## ]|[ GorE

I don't doubt the differences caused by the change of opamp and the ERS paper,but the difference by adding the huge valued capacitor (part of the digital and analog stage).2200 uF cap, ?? IF you read the voltage regulator datasheets as I have,you will find no use for anything more than 480uF or so..Also,lookup waht happens to the voltage noise when caps with different capacitance are connected at the output of the regulators.(google it ).

 Also,why on earth has no one on this thread added the 0.1uF caps left out by Creative ?

 And,codt,I am using a 2 way sealed Morel bookshelves hooked up to a Panasonic Digital amp now.


----------



## PPkiller

i only changed the opamp and shorted the 4 capacitor so far.. i haven't get the black gate capacitor and the ers paper... will it be safe to remain with 180mv? else i'll unshort them later..


----------



## pinkfloyd4ever

hey cotdt I have an Audigy 2ZS, is this the op-amp? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 (thanks, angryguy, yeah I did steal your pic
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) 

 also where's the power filtering cap, to the lower right of the processor? How about those 4 caps that you short? You say to mount the soundcard as far as possible from the video card, but for me that puts it as close as possible to the power supply. Is that ok or should I put a double layer of ERS paper between them?


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pinkfloyd4ever* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_hey cotdt I have an Audigy 2ZS, is this the op-amp? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (thanks, angryguy, yeah I did steal your pic) _

 

Yes, that is the opamp. I don't know which is the power filter cap. You'll have to trace the board to find it.


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *]|[ GorE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't doubt the differences caused by the change of opamp and the ERS paper,but the difference by adding the huge valued capacitor (part of the digital and analog stage).2200 uF cap, ?? IF you read the voltage regulator datasheets as I have,you will find no use for anything more than 480uF or so..Also,lookup waht happens to the voltage noise when caps with different capacitance are connected at the output of the regulators.(google it )._

 

You're right, it's not the size of the capacitor that matters. But the debate is whether or not using high quality caps as power filter effects the sound. I thought it did, but the only way to prove it is to do a blind A/B test. There are, however, instances of hundreds of people who change out their power capacitors for better ones and noted an improvement in the sound (ie. better clarity). It's hard to argue that hundreds (if not thousands) of people are all under the influence of placebo. Is it really so hard to beleive? The power supply is in the audio signal path and are not even close to acting like ideal capacitors. The specs of various capacitors are very different and these differences are directly measureable.


----------



## kirimaru

my psu stock caps was ost.
 the 12v line caps is replaced by BG STD 16v 2200uf,5v and 3.3v line with nichicon fg 16v 2200uf,16v 4700 uf(couldnt find 6.3v caps)


----------



## ]|[ GorE

I highly doubt that the big capacitor is a part of the audio signal path.


----------



## qwerty009

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *]|[ GorE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Also,why on earth has no one on this thread added the 0.1uF caps left out by Creative ?_

 

Can u tell where these caps suppose to go? I would like to try to add them.
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *]|[ GorE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I highly doubt that the big capacitor is a part of the audio signal path._

 

It's part of power circuit but doesnt more stable DC voltage that goes to DAC, opamp etc result in lesser noise and berret sound in these components?
 (hope ereryone understood what i meant, since im not too good with english)


----------



## Herbal

It's a general known fact that a cleaner and more stable DC current in audio systems is of great benefit.

 Perhaps GorE made the power cap replacement and didn't notice any difference due to A) his equipment setup or B) difference between the way people work!

 I've definately noticed a difference, forum members have noted a difference and people visiting me have noticed a difference and this is just from replacing the power cap.

 GorE - instead of just stating that everyone else is subjected to a placebo effect either prove that there is no audible benefit or please just don't comment on it.

 Also...you waffle on about 0.1uF caps left out by Creative...your the only source I've seen mention this (granted I haven't looked at any technical documents in regard to any workings of the card) so why not propose the mod, reasons for it and add a little tutorial about how and what to change.

 (can't even see that you have done this mod yourself let alone mention any noticeable benefit).


----------



## DSlayerZX

from what I know, a capacitor can act as an low pass filter, it simply filter out the noise of the signal. Creative designed it maybe so that they can filter out the noise from PCI slot to the card, but since there is already a bunch of other resistor on the card, they probably ended up realizing that these extra capacitor is not needed


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *]|[ GorE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I highly doubt that the big capacitor is a part of the audio signal path._

 

Your doubts deceive you. The power supply is always part of the signal path if you think about it. Please stop crapping my thread. You have not even tried these mods because you do not even have an X-Fi. I'll be happy to discuss electronics with you, but you seem to have some very strong beliefs. You would get a lot more respect around here if you actually made the effort to back up your arguments.


----------



## kirimaru

"cotdt" you should order some samples of ad8599 to hear your self the diference
 compared to lm4562,lm4562 sound ok to me,but ad8599 have better soundstage 
 and there is much more life and involvement with AD8599.


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kirimaru* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_"cotdt" you should order some samples of ad8599 to hear your self the diference
 compared to lm4562,lm4562 sound ok to me,but ad8599 have better soundstage 
 and there is much more life and involvement with AD8599._

 

i'll try it. there's also some other obscure but good opamps like AD9632.


----------



## pinkfloyd4ever

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cotdt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes, that is the opamp. I don't know which is the power filter cap. You'll have to trace the board to find it._

 

ummm
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 how? 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cotdt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You're right, it's not the size of the capacitor that matters. But the debate is whether or not using high quality caps as power filter effects the sound. I thought it did, but the only way to prove it is to do a blind A/B test. There are, however, instances of hundreds of people who change out their power capacitors for better ones and noted an improvement in the sound (ie. better clarity). It's hard to argue that hundreds (if not thousands) of people are all under the influence of placebo. Is it really so hard to beleive? The power supply is in the audio signal path and are not even close to acting like ideal capacitors. The specs of various capacitors are very different and these differences are directly measureable._

 

if this is the case, why not save a little dough and use the 470uf BG? Or better yet, spend a couple more bucks(than the 2200uf standard BG) and use the 470uf FK series BG?

 Is the lowest PCI slot (also the farthest from the video card) the best place for the soundcard if its the closest place to the power supply?


----------



## DSlayerZX

no, i would recommend you to place your card as far away as possible from the power source and graphic card. I believe those two are the main magnetic wave distributer in a computer.


----------



## ]|[ GorE

Okay,fine if you guys hear a difference subjectively.My comments on the capacitance are based purely on data sheets and online articles about Voltage Regulators . Great if it makes things sound better to ya.

 And,Codt...I'll post the 0.1uF capacitor mod l8r, after I have done with my college exams.In the mean time,maybe you would like to read the data sheets of the DAC and the +/- 5 V regulators on the card. Look up the part numbers of these components on the card and Google.


----------



## ]|[ GorE

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Herbal* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's a general known fact that a cleaner and more stable DC current in audio systems is of great benefit.

 Perhaps GorE made the power cap replacement and didn't notice any difference due to A) his equipment setup or B) difference between the way people work!

 I've definately noticed a difference, forum members have noted a difference and people visiting me have noticed a difference and this is just from replacing the power cap.

 GorE - instead of just stating that everyone else is subjected to a placebo effect either prove that there is no audible benefit or please just don't comment on it.

 Also...you waffle on about 0.1uF caps left out by Creative...your the only source I've seen mention this (granted I haven't looked at any technical documents in regard to any workings of the card) so why not propose the mod, reasons for it and add a little tutorial about how and what to change.

 (can't even see that you have done this mod yourself let alone mention any noticeable benefit)._

 

Umm,the DAC has its own capacitor that filters out the signal and its compliant with the manufacturers operating conditions.

 Or,perhaps the Creative card is that badly designed....and the lack of current reserve is causing bit errors in the digital section of the card as well ( which I highly doubt).
 Oh,and bet you told your visitors that you have modded the card.


----------



## PPkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kirimaru* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_"cotdt" you should order some samples of ad8599 to hear your self the diference
 compared to lm4562,lm4562 sound ok to me,but ad8599 have better soundstage 
 and there is much more life and involvement with AD8599._

 

ah.. if only u post this info a few days earlier.. i have both chips and i soldered the lm4562... guess i'll just stick to 4562 as i dunwan to waste another good opamp by cutting the 4562 legs off for ad8599...


----------



## qwerty009

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kirimaru* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_"cotdt" you should order some samples of ad8599 to hear your self the diference
 compared to lm4562,lm4562 sound ok to me,but ad8599 have better soundstage 
 and there is much more life and involvement with AD8599._

 

I hav ad8620 at a moment, but got 2 ad8599 at my posession now. Mayby you have tried 8620 and can compare these two? And also run RMAA with 8599 to check if results are ok.


----------



## kirimaru

i have done the RMAA test,please correct me if i am doing somethig wrong.


----------



## qwerty009

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kirimaru* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i have done the RMAA test,please correct me if i am doing somethig wrong.


_

 

You are usin digital loopback (analog stage is not tested). 
 In ur recording control (like volume control) select line in. Right now there should be "wave" or "what u hear" selected.

 (one way to get to recording control: open volume control -> options -> properties ->recording)

 Line in and front out must me connected via cable.


----------



## sguft

I've just completed the mod successfully (only the opamp and capacitor part though) and the effect is quite awesome - my x-fi plays music now 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Thanks very much cotdt.


----------



## kirimaru

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qwerty009* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You are usin digital loopback (analog stage is not tested). 
 In ur recording control (like volume control) select line in. Right now there should be "wave" or "what u hear" selected.

 (one way to get to recording control: open volume control -> options -> properties ->recording)

 Line in and front out must me connected via cable._

 

wait i am confused, which source i have select for output and which for input?


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PPkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ah.. if only u post this info a few days earlier.. i have both chips and i soldered the lm4562... guess i'll just stick to 4562 as i dunwan to waste another good opamp by cutting the 4562 legs off for ad8599..._

 

you don't have to cut off the legs, thereby destroying the opamp, you can simply desolder it if you are careful. i just find the cutting technique to be the quick and easy way, but there are better ways if you want to preserve the opamp.


----------



## kirimaru

wow!!! the results are worst than the stock xfi,but then why it sound far better than the stock xfi?


----------



## DSlayerZX

urrr... I have no idea what are you talking about there...


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kirimaru* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_wow!!! the results are worst than the stock xfi,but then why it sound far better than the stock xfi?


_

 

strange, how are you testing it? you have to look at the actual graphs by the way, those summary numbers are not correct. i don't expect much of a difference between stock X-Fi and modded X-Fi. should be about the same. RMAA can't measure the important parameters like transient intermodulation distortion. It only measures useless things, like THD and stereo crosstalk, which has absolutely no effect on the sound below a certain percentage (5% for THD). that's why i didn't publish the RMAA results. they are completely useless. the important parameters require some expensive equipment and a lot of knowledge to measure.


----------



## PPkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kirimaru* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_wow!!! the results are worst than the stock xfi,but then why it sound far better than the stock xfi?


_

 

try with rmaa 5.5 and see whether the results are the same as verison 6?


----------



## PPkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cotdt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_you don't have to cut off the legs, thereby destroying the opamp, you can simply desolder it if you are careful. i just find the cutting technique to be the quick and easy way, but there are better ways if you want to preserve the opamp._

 

how i hope i have the experience in desoldering... guess i'll need to borrow hot air gun if i wanna desolder it without damaging the chip..


----------



## qwerty009

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kirimaru* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_wow!!! the results are worst than the stock xfi,but then why it sound far better than the stock xfi?


_

 

Like cotdt said rmaa doesnt say how well it sounds but its useful when u want to test if opamp is forking correctly (in current circuit). Numbers are fine but i would like to see graphs also.
 My rmaa taken some months ago after opamp change (using ad8620). 
 16bit 44khz http://www.hot.ee/qwerty009/xfi.pdf
 24bit 96khz http://www.hot.ee/qwerty009/xfi2.pdf


----------



## BigFNDeal

I see alot of posters on this forum that have their x-fi connected to an EMU 0404 USB via optical, thn goto either headphones or speakers from that. Would this help or hurt the sound after this mod? I just bought a pre-mod'd xfi xm from soloz2 & a pair of Beyer DT770/80's from Naldo (Good guys BTW!) and was curious to see if getting the EMU would help for gaming? I do have a MisterX CMOY amp currently (see sig!).


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *BigFNDeal* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I see alot of posters on this forum that have their x-fi connected to an EMU 0404 USB via optical, thn goto either headphones or speakers from that. Would this help or hurt the sound after this mod? I just bought a pre-mod'd xfi xm from soloz2 & a pair of Beyer DT770/80's from Naldo (Good guys BTW!) and was curious to see if getting the EMU would help for gaming? I do have a MisterX CMOY amp currently (see sig!)._

 

using an E-MU would negate all the X-Fi mods. The modded X-Fi has a much better analog stage than the E-MU. Yeah... definately get rid of the E-MU. You can see for yourself. In my opinion, even the stock X-Fi comes very close to the E-MU.


----------



## DSlayerZX

well, the mod is focus on the analog out put of the card, so if you connect a e-mu to it by using optical/coax, you will be by passing the mod and feed the signal directly into the e-mu. So the mod will become useless.


----------



## PPkiller

hottrodd the e-mu usb as well? if i'm not wrong it has a better dac then x-fi series(except elite pro). There's tons of jrc 2068 opamp inside and 1 jrc 2114 opamp for the headphone out.. not that sure which should be changed and which should not...


----------



## Seba

Yesterday I bought a pen-type tip for my soldering station and today I resoldered the op-amp. It was much easier because I could get the tip between the legs and clean the spaces. One thing that was making it difficult was my hands shaking all the time.

 Now I can say that my channel balance is fixed and sound is wonderful. Next I will put the anti-static bag over my X-fi. Have to cut a hole for the heat sink just in case.


----------



## cmos.gr

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Seba* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 Next I will put the anti-static bag over my X-fi. Have to cut a hole for the heat sink just in case._

 


 hmmm that helps ? Cause everyone has an anti static bag...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			






 Well I have bad news from me...My 3300uf 16v cap doesn't work...
 Default cap is ok with X-Fi and working again..

 I dont have any 16V here but I have many 10V.
 Cap MUST be 16v ?


----------



## soloz2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cmos.gr* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_hmmm that helps ? Cause everyone has an anti static bag...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





 Well I have bad news from me...My 3300uf 16v cap doesn't work...
 Default cap is ok with X-Fi and working again..

 I dont have any 16V here but I have many 10V.
 Cap MUST be 16v ?_

 


 I haven't measured, but the card should get a 12v input from the mobo so you will want something at least 12v. so 16v is really the ideal


----------



## Seba

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cmos.gr* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_hmmm that helps ? Cause everyone has an anti static bag...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Have to try and it costs nothing.

 I have a feeling that AKG K701 improves its sound noticeably when I upgrade something in the signal path. I can't hear that much improvement with Sonys. Bass is very nice with AKG and heavy metal is the only music style where it still isn't good. Electronic and pop music sounds very nice.


----------



## cmos.gr

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *soloz2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I haven't measured, but the card should get a 12v input from the mobo so you will want something at least 12v. so 16v is really the ideal_

 

PCI voltage is 3.3v or 5v...

 I soldered an 6.5v 2200μF and sounds very nice.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 So I think its ok


----------



## BigFNDeal

So if the EMU would negate the upgrades, should I or should I not still use a headphone amp.


----------



## cotdt

the E-MU negates the analog stage, but the headphone amp comes after it. so yes, use an amp if your headphone or speaker requires it. don't use a CMoy though. the internal amp in the X-Fi is stronger/better than the CMoy so the CMoy would only degrade sound quality. The minimum quality amp that should be used is the Gilmore Lite in my opinion.


----------



## soloz2

here's BigFNDeal's card in action





 I masked the ERS paper upon special request for cosmetic reasons


----------



## phalanger

Yeah 6.3V should be fine as 5v is all it should ever get. My 6,3v cap hasnt blown up yet 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Use your own discretion.. 16V would be the safe choice.

 As for the static bags, yes they make a difference (the thick semi-transparant silvery kind). I'm not sure putting a 'static bag *over* the card' is such a great idea if that is what it sounds like. It will get too warm and cause some distortion (tried this). Probably only covering the backside of the card is plenty, maybe could do the DSP/DAC also but i dunno if its needed. But dont smother the card.


----------



## ichiboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cotdt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_the E-MU negates the analog stage, but the headphone amp comes after it. so yes, use an amp if your headphone or speaker requires it. don't use a CMoy though. the internal amp in the X-Fi is stronger/better than the CMoy so the CMoy would only degrade sound quality. The minimum quality amp that should be used is the Gilmore Lite in my opinion._

 

hmm... I'd disagree with you there. I'm running it off my Larocco PRII (assuming that this is worse than gilmore lite) and I think it sounds better than the internal x-fi amp.


----------



## Seba

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *phalanger* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yeah 6.3V should be fine as 5v is all it should ever get. My 6,3v cap hasnt blown up yet 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Use your own discretion.. 16V would be the safe choice.

 As for the static bags, yes they make a difference (the thick semi-transparant silvery kind). I'm not sure putting a 'static bag *over* the card' is such a great idea if that is what it sounds like. It will get too warm and cause some distortion (tried this). Probably only covering the backside of the card is plenty, maybe could do the DSP/DAC also but i dunno if its needed. But dont smother the card._

 

Thanks for this tip. I'll cut the bag in half and install it only on the backside of the card. I have the card in the lowest PCI-slot and beneath it there is only a metal frame from the case. Maybe I'll put the other half of the bag to the bottom of the case.

 Edit: Anti-static bag now installed.


----------



## phalanger

Notice any change? You could also just stick the 2 layers together so its thicker and probably more effective.


----------



## gates_2

so i've been having a problem with my elite pro lately.

 After modding it, things were great. Then I went in and installed a new hard drive. REsult? When I turned on my computer, I was getting alot of nasty system noise out of the left channel only. I unplugged the card from the PCI slot, and plugged it back in, and it worked fine after that.

 But now, I just moved from my dorm to an Apartment for the summer, and I get the same problem. I do my normal fix, it works, but then I leave for the day(got my wisdom teeth out today :-X), come back, and its making that darn noise again. I finally have gotten it to go away(unplugged it a couple more times, finally cleaned the back of the board with 91% alcohol) Hopefully it wont come back, but if so, any ideas? I'm hoping this isn't a long-term side effect of the X-fi modding (i was one of the first to do so)


----------



## cotdt

the noise comes from the power supply. there is nothing you can do about it other than get an external DAC.


----------



## hdaboliv

Man what a difference!!!
 Just modded mine (opamps only) and I'm listening now X-Fi Platinum via 5 1/4 bay (modded that opamp also) + HD 650 directly and the bass is punchier and de highs are more defined!

 Also, using static bag as shield. In those bags specification, it has a 40% EMI blocking. As I'm using them around the X-Fi, there are 2 layers, = 80% EMI blocking 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Great job!
 Will try the capacitor now...

 (You made me write my first post just to congratulate you cotdt 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)


----------



## cotdt

You're welcome, hdaboliv. You might find that the sound is even better straight out of the X-Fi card rather than through the 5.25" bay.


----------



## shoenberg3

question about them static bags:
 so i would cover the card with static bag, but place a foam sheet on TOP of the card inside the static bag?


----------



## hdaboliv

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *shoenberg3* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_question about them static bags:
 so i would cover the card with static bag, but place a foam sheet on TOP of the card inside the static bag?_

 

I use no foam or anything else. Imagine a taco. You don't open the static bag, just put the X-Fi in the middle like a taco, with the static bag around.

 Also, I want to say something else:

 Before doing the opamp mod, the X-Fi + HD 650 sound so awful that I liked more the sound of my workplace combo, a Onboard audio SoundMax + HD 280.

 After the mod, X-Fi + HD 650 is waaaaay better!


----------



## joneeboi

I can't really check the thread search function for this but what other opamps are people using and has anyone compared other opamps to the LM4562? Surely someone is using something other than the LM4562. I checked the spec sheet and it doesn't look very different from any other dual opamp.


----------



## shoenberg3

so would i just cover the backside of the card? or should i also shield the front? (which is facing down to the case)

 And which side of the paper should i set it to put it over the x fi? i assume the inner part of the paper to face down? 

 And finally, how close should the paper be to the card? Do they need to be stuck together or can the paper just be kind of floating around between the x fi and the GPU? 

 sorry for all these questions. Yes, I am paranoid ;?


----------



## Pm@c

I did this mod last night, put the op-amp on VERY easily, but when I desoldered the capacitor, I just cut the legs off near the board and desoldered each leg. Thing is, one of the holes still has a piece of the leg that I cant get out and I cant solder the capacitor in correctly until I get it out. My soldering iron is only 30w, I think maybe I need a hotter one (45w or 60w?) to desolder it properly. It pisses me off. For now I just stuck the one leg through the hole and the other is resting on top, and I soldered it to the top of the board and the other leg is soldered properly at the other side. But yeah my soldering iron is a big piece of crap, doesnt even tin properly... 

 Im wondering if since my capacitor isnt soldered 100% correctly if I should even be using my sound card. I watched some shows last night and it sounded pretty good, but playing games and listening to movies I dont hear much of a difference. You guys sure this mod is supposed to make a huge difference, because I dont really notice it (I think you guys are blowing this mod out of proportion).


----------



## cotdt

what headphone and amp are you using, Pm@c? it's true that with some headphones, there is no difference in sound. But with my K701 or Denons, to me the difference is quite big.


----------



## cmos.gr

Just modded


----------



## phalanger

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hdaboliv* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I use no foam or anything else. Imagine a taco. You don't open the static bag, just put the X-Fi in the middle like a taco, with the static bag around._

 

I don't recommend putting your soundcard inside of a closed plastic bag... the generated warmth cant escape. I'd rather put a double folded bag on the backside (for 4 layers total) and optional another on the other side of the card, but i dont think bagging it up is a good idea.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Has anybody done a A/B listening test before and after applying sheilding?
 I figured toget the most out of ERS paper pr other sheilding your would need some space between the card and the material. Consider a plan card with no sheilding will give off alot of EMI, RFI...etc. If you put ERS paper on both sides of the card what happens to this interference? I personally think it would reflect back to the card. What do you guys think? Possibly leaving a couple inches would help...


----------



## hdaboliv

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *phalanger* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't recommend putting your soundcard inside of a closed plastic bag... the generated warmth cant escape. I'd rather put a double folded bag on the backside (for 4 layers total) and optional another on the other side of the card, but i dont think bagging it up is a good idea._

 

Yeah, I agree with that.

 But I have a Thermaltake Xaser III, it has superb ventilation.
 Other people with normal/low airflow case might consider your option though.

 Thanks for the touch


----------



## pinkfloyd4ever

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cotdt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes, that is the opamp. I don't know which is the power filter cap. You'll have to trace the board to find it.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pinkfloyd4ever* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
ummm
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 how?

 

_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *]|[ GorE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't doubt the differences caused by the change of opamp and the ERS paper,but the difference by adding the huge valued capacitor (part of the digital and analog stage).2200 uF cap, ?? IF you read the voltage regulator datasheets as I have,you will find no use for anything more than 480uF or so.. Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cotdt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
You're right, it's not the size of the capacitor that matters. But the debate is whether or not using high quality caps as power filter effects the sound. I thought it did, but the only way to prove it is to do a blind A/B test. There are, however, instances of hundreds of people who change out their power capacitors for better ones and noted an improvement in the sound (ie. better clarity). It's hard to argue that hundreds (if not thousands) of people are all under the influence of placebo. Is it really so hard to beleive? The power supply is in the audio signal path and are not even close to acting like ideal capacitors. The specs of various capacitors are very different and these differences are directly measureable. 
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pinkfloyd4ever* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
if this is the case, why not save a little dough and use the 1000 or 470uf BG? Or spend a few more bucks(than the 2200uf standard BG) and use the 470 or 1000uf FK series BG?

 



 

_

 

anyone, anyone? Bueller?


----------



## BigFNDeal

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cotdt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_the E-MU negates the analog stage, but the headphone amp comes after it. so yes, use an amp if your headphone or speaker requires it. don't use a CMoy though. the internal amp in the X-Fi is stronger/better than the CMoy so the CMoy would only degrade sound quality. The minimum quality amp that should be used is the Gilmore Lite in my opinion._

 

OK, cotdt so I'm making the changes you suggested, as you can see from my sig (though I haven't gotten the x-fi yet, that should be here Friday). But since I am removing the CMoy, and there's no way I can swing the amp you suggested, how do I turn off sound to the headphone when I want to use my speakers? I had planned on simply turning on the CMoy when I wanted to use the 'phones and turning on the speakers when I wanted to hear them. I still have my old Plantronics headphone switch, but I'm sure thats going to create an issue if I try and use it. (Now please don't suggest some $300 item here, I'm currently over budget for audio as it is! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 <--for now!)


----------



## soloz2

you can use a mini 'Y' adapter and just plug both speakers and headphones in


----------



## Pm@c

I dont have an amp. I plug directly into the soundcard with my DT770/80's. I was thinking about getting an amp. Also can anyone comment on what I said about desoldering the capacitor. I dont have my capacitor soldered 100% correctly, I could only get 1 leg through, the other hole is blocked by the old legs, so I rested the new leg on top and soldered on the topside of the card. If there isnt a proper connection, what risks am I running? Would the card even work, or would it just not work to its full capacity? Im just unsure of whether I can settle for a crappy solder job and possibly a not so good connection or if I should bring it in to work where we have hotter soldering irons and try to get that leg out (although its stuck in there pretty good).


----------



## VFXCode

Can anyone tell me which opamps is for each channel??

 I use a 5.1 system currently and if can i dont want to swap the opamp for the side channels.


----------



## BigFNDeal

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *soloz2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_you can use a mini 'Y' adapter and just plug both speakers and headphones in_

 

Thats what I am doing currently, but my issue with that is that the headphones will be outputting sound, when I have the speakers on. I would prefer a way to disable the speakers, aside from unplugging them.


----------



## soloz2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *BigFNDeal* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thats what I am doing currently, but my issue with that is that the headphones will be outputting sound, when I have the speakers on. I would prefer a way to disable the speakers, aside from unplugging them._

 

if you plan to use your Cmoy, just turn the cmoy off and then no sound through your headphones while your speakers are on. likewise turn your speakers off and the cmoy on and there will not be sound from your speakers while u listen w/ your headphones.


----------



## YCH

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cotdt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_strange, how are you testing it? you have to look at the actual graphs by the way, those summary numbers are not correct. i don't expect much of a difference between stock X-Fi and modded X-Fi. should be about the same. RMAA can't measure the important parameters like transient intermodulation distortion. It only measures useless things, like THD and stereo crosstalk, which has absolutely no effect on the sound below a certain percentage (5% for THD). that's why i didn't publish the RMAA results. they are completely useless. *the important parameters require some expensive equipment and a lot of knowledge to measure*._

 

I use an Audio Precision 2722 analyzer quite frequently, so measuring THD+N, IMD, and TIM are quite easy as long as I set things up right. Suggestions for applicable measurements are welcome as I would like to see what the differences are before and after changing the opamp (I'm gonna do one mod at a time).


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *YCH* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I use an Audio Precision 2722 analyzer quite frequently, so measuring THD+N, IMD, and TIM are quite easy as long as I set things up right. Suggestions for applicable measurements are welcome as I would like to see what the differences are before and after changing the opamp (I'm gonna do one mod at a time)._

 

Yes, please tell us the before and after results for TIM.


----------



## kirimaru

the reason of why many of you are getting distortion and harsh sound with the static paper,is that your are not aplying the static paper correctly.
 please dont put the static paper directly on the card,put a thin layer of foam and then the inner side of static paper on foam and ground it.(when you put the static paper without foam and grounding,the emi and rfi go back to the card making distortion).


----------



## hardnrg

well this is an extremely interesting mod... I've already done various hard-mods to graphics cards, cpus and motherboards... never a sound card...

 the audio quality of my Audigy2 ZS is starting to show its shortcomings as I upgrade various other audio components...

 I'm going to get an X-Fi XtremeMusic *anyway* for my main rig... but if I'm going to be buying ERS cloth and various ICs, I may as well mod both cards (current and new)...

 I guess you identified the marked op-amp as the main stereo out?

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cotdt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pinkfloyd4ever* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
hey cotdt I have an Audigy 2ZS, is this the op-amp? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (thanks, angryguy, yeah I did steal your pic
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)

 

Yes, that is the opamp. I don't know which is the power filter cap. You'll have to trace the board to find it._

 

so I just trace the 3.5mm sockets to ID the surround op-amps yes? and then just replace all of them I'm guessing

 p.s. if these questions are answered in this thread, please ignore me lol... I'm going to read the whole thing as I expect some people have asked the same questions


----------



## gates_2

no.. that noise was like really loud(to the point where I couldn't listen to music). After messing around, i went back to a near silent noise floor...

 Building a new comp in a couple of days... hopefully never hear it again


----------



## pinkfloyd4ever

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hardnrg* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_well this is an extremely interesting mod... I've already done various hard-mods to graphics cards, cpus and motherboards... never a sound card...

 the audio quality of my Audigy2 ZS is starting to show its shortcomings as I upgrade various other audio components...

 I'm going to get an X-Fi XtremeMusic *anyway* for my main rig... but if I'm going to be buying ERS cloth and various ICs, I may as well mod both cards (current and new)...

 I guess you identified the marked op-amp as the main stereo out?


 so I just trace the 3.5mm sockets to ID the surround op-amps yes? and then just replace all of them I'm guessing

 p.s. if these questions are answered in this thread, please ignore me lol... I'm going to read the whole thing as I expect some people have asked the same questions_

 

would you happen to know how to trace the board to find the power filter cap? Sorry, I have no idea bout the surround op-amps, the layout isnt as logical as the x-fi

 EDIT: yes, the one with the red box is the main op-amp


----------



## n19htmare

Put in the LM4562 OpAmp and shorted the assumed coupling caps. 
 There is definitely a difference from the OPAMP change. The majority of the change comes from the OPAmp, i have not installed my black gate yet but I don't think it will make as much a difference as the OPamp.
 There was a very minimal improvement from shorting the caps, very slight improvement in the upper midbass and midrange areas. Not everyone will notice it.

 The Shield I though made no difference, again I'm just using an anti static bag for now. I think the shield is one of those mods that will work for some and not others. If your other parts are emitting noise, the shield mayhelp, for me.... it did not make a difference.

 My blackgate should be here in the next couple of days, we'll see how that works out.

 Been in SQ Car Audio for quiet some time, I'd say my ears are decently trained and I can say with confidence that the OPamp is a positive Mod, But I'm not too sure on the others yet.

 Cousin has an unmoded Xtrememusic, and I also have an xtremegamer so gonna try to do some comparison. 

 But so far, I'm liking how Clair Marlo, Michael Ruff and Pat Coil are sounding...


----------



## ]|[ GorE

Uh....EMI doesn't reflect.It travels through the nearest layer of the conducting material inside the ERS bag / paper.Its a faraday cage,just like your car.If lightning were to hit your car,it's the best if you stay inside.THe lightning wont bounce around or back into the heavens.It will pass through the outer metallic layer of your car,keeping you unharmed.


----------



## VFXCode

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *VFXCode* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Can anyone tell me which opamps is for each channel??

 I use a 5.1 system currently and if can i dont want to swap the opamp for the side channels._

 

Anybody ???


----------



## PPkiller

i think u need to change every opamp.. there's a post in the previous pages that mention that if u want to mod for 5.1 channel, u need to change every opamp...


----------



## qwerty009

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *VFXCode* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Can anyone tell me which opamps is for each channel??

 I use a 5.1 system currently and if can i dont want to swap the opamp for the side channels._

 

Side channel Opamp is the nearest to sidechannel output. In other words, if u dont want to change all opamps skip the ones that are near the output(s) you are not using.


----------



## Pm@c

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pm@c* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I dont have an amp. I plug directly into the soundcard with my DT770/80's. I was thinking about getting an amp. Also can anyone comment on what I said about desoldering the capacitor. I dont have my capacitor soldered 100% correctly, I could only get 1 leg through, the other hole is blocked by the old legs, so I rested the new leg on top and soldered on the topside of the card. If there isnt a proper connection, what risks am I running? Would the card even work, or would it just not work to its full capacity? Im just unsure of whether I can settle for a crappy solder job and possibly a not so good connection or if I should bring it in to work where we have hotter soldering irons and try to get that leg out (although its stuck in there pretty good)._

 


 Would be nice to get some insight on this.

 Like ive had my soundcard running for a good 3 days now, sounds not much different than before. What is the capacitor mod supposed to do, and how can I tell if I soldered it correctly? Like I said, I have one leg soldered properly and the other leg is resting on the top of the card, over the other hole which has a piece of the old capacitor's leg stuck in there, and I just applied solder on the topside of the card. If the capacitor isnt soldered correctly would the card malfunction? It outputs sound for me, sounds pretty decent on DVD movies and tv shows, but my music still sounds crappy (at least I know its my music quality, even though I am apparantly playing bit-perfect music). So Im just confused on whether I should take another stab at trying to get the leg out and then solder the capacitor properly.


----------



## Seba

Covering the card's backside with anti-static bag wasn't such a good idea. I got a huge buzz and after that distorted sound. I took the card out from the case and it was warm. Now it works flawlessly without the anti-static bag.

 Have to figure out different approach, maybe some non-conductive poles above the card and anti-static bag on top of those so there will be room for the card to breathe.


----------



## ROBSCIX

ASfar as I can tell the X-fi chip is sensitive to heat. This is why there is a heat sink on the chip.


----------



## ]|[ GorE

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *YCH* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I use an Audio Precision 2722 analyzer quite frequently, so measuring THD+N, IMD, and TIM are quite easy as long as I set things up right. Suggestions for applicable measurements are welcome as I would like to see what the differences are before and after changing the opamp (I'm gonna do one mod at a time)._

 

Eager for the Audio Precision results.


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pm@c* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Would be nice to get some insight on this.

 Like ive had my soundcard running for a good 3 days now, sounds not much different than before. What is the capacitor mod supposed to do, and how can I tell if I soldered it correctly? Like I said, I have one leg soldered properly and the other leg is resting on the top of the card, over the other hole which has a piece of the old capacitor's leg stuck in there, and I just applied solder on the topside of the card. If the capacitor isnt soldered correctly would the card malfunction? It outputs sound for me, sounds pretty decent on DVD movies and tv shows, but my music still sounds crappy (at least I know its my music quality, even though I am apparantly playing bit-perfect music). So Im just confused on whether I should take another stab at trying to get the leg out and then solder the capacitor properly._

 

you need good headphones and an amp. low impedance headphones work poorly straight out of the sound card. higher impedance but power-hungry headphones also would need an amp.


----------



## McKebapp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qwerty009* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Side channel Opamp is the nearest to sidechannel output. In other words, if u dont want to change all opamps skip the ones that are near the output(s) you are not using._

 

Could anybody please be a little preciser?
 I also wasn't able to get more than three LM4562MA. I use a 7.1 Teufel Concept G THX System but the side speakers aren't used that much, so that I can leave them with the old oamp. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Unfortunately the side speakers are divided on two jacks (see attachment).

 Or does anybody have a fourth LM4562MA for me?


----------



## n19htmare

I measure the temp on the back of the card, right behind the x-fi chip with my fluke52 and it registered at 48C.That is very warm. Could it cause long term effect if you cover the back and that heat has no where to go?

 BTW the Senn. HD580 get plenty loud plugged directly into the soundcard.


----------



## cotdt

48 °C is nothings. it is fine.


----------



## brn80

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *BigFNDeal* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thats what I am doing currently, but my issue with that is that the headphones will be outputting sound, when I have the speakers on. I would prefer a way to disable the speakers, aside from unplugging them._

 

Could try making a simple A-B box, or buy one from here: http://electronicsusa.com/mk1and2.html

 I probably will grab one myself as I intend to get an xtrememusic soon.


----------



## Pm@c

Nobody is really answering my question. Im asking if I should try to resolder the capacitor because I didnt do the best of job soldering it. Its a really sketchy soldering job and Im wondering how I would know if the capacitor was soldered correctly. Would the card not work or just sound worse? What does the capacitor mod do so that I can know if I soldered the capacitor correctly. Please PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE read my question and answer it, I know its difficult but please can someone just answer me.


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pm@c* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Nobody is really answering my question. Im asking if I should try to resolder the capacitor because I didnt do the best of job soldering it. Its a really sketchy soldering job and Im wondering how I would know if the capacitor was soldered correctly. Would the card not work or just sound worse? What does the capacitor mod do so that I can know if I soldered the capacitor correctly. Please PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE read my question and answer it, I know its difficult but please can someone just answer me._

 

do you have pictures?


----------



## McKebapp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *McKebapp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Could anybody please be a little preciser?
 I also wasn't able to get more than three LM4562MA. I use a 7.1 Teufel Concept G THX System but the side speakers aren't used that much, so that I can leave them with the old oamp. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Unfortunately the side speakers are divided on two jacks (see attachment).

 Or does anybody have a fourth LM4562MA for me? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 


 Hmm... I'll receive my LM4562MA's tomorrow. Do you guys think, that a try&error method will help with my/our issue?

 I'd solder one IC out, reinstall the soundcard to my rig, and listen which pair of speakers don't work anymore. Then I'd do this with the second one, and so on.

 Or will this damage my soundcard, if I run it without one IC?

 Thnx,

 McK

 (please excuse my poor English 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )


----------



## Pm@c

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cotdt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_do you have pictures?_

 

No, but I can take them and upload later today when I get home from work.


----------



## hardnrg

Ok, so my XtremeMusic arrived today.. after the drivers have finished downloading I'll pull the A2ZS, do a little visual comparison, then put the X-Fi in my main rig...

 I've read the thread from start to finish now, and the opinion on the power capacitor seems to have changed throughout the course of the thread. I seem to get the impression that a 470uF standard polarised Blackgate would be the most suitable replacement. Is that right?

 The op-amp ICs are a bit bigger than I thought they'd be. It'll be an easier job than the graphics cards voltmods I've done in the past anyway lol.

 Edit:

 Ok, I just looked at the A2ZS and it has the same CS4382 DAC, same JRC 4556A main op-amp and same three ST4558C surround op-amps... it even has the same 33078 input IC... So I guess it's fairly safe to assume that this X-Fi mod could be done on the A2ZS (pending the identification of the power capacitor)


----------



## ROBSCIX

@hardnrg, Your saying the Audigy 2 ZS has the same parts as the X-fi?
 but yeah you can mod any soundcard aslong as you know which parts are which. Your just putting in better parts.


----------



## hardnrg

they appear to have the same 8-channel DAC and op-amps... it's actually widely documented... I just wanted to confirm it by eye for my own cards and pose the question


----------



## ROBSCIX

So really the only difference between the Audigy 2 ZS and the X-fi are the DSP chip and filter capacitors? -Interesting I didn't know that. YOu have links to any info showing this? 
 Not trying to get offtopic...just didn't know that...


----------



## hardnrg

you only have to look at the cards to see they have these components in common... I found this information around on the internet for both cards before I looked however...

 Anyway, my point of this is that I'm going to be hand-me-downing my A2ZS to my downloading/htpc rig to replace the rather uninspiring SB Live 5.1 Digital (Dell OEM SB0220 nightmare, not EMU10k1) so upgrading the op-amps and power filter cap would be a nice pick-me-up for the hand-me-down


----------



## ROBSCIX

Yeah, If you upgrade the opamps and power cap on the A2 it's gonna sound alot better.


----------



## theBigD

where do you get the lm4562 op-amp? i tried the link at the begining of the thread and i can find the part but now it seems they have 24hr samples. does that mean you only get to try and return? also they want you to log in and that seems to time out for me. ive been grazing this thread for a while now, i am a complete noob to soldering, so ive been pretty nervous about doing this but i think i am ready to try. thanx for your help.


----------



## soloz2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *theBigD* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_where do you get the lm4562 op-amp? i tried the link at the begining of the thread and i can find the part but now it seems they have 24hr samples. does that mean you only get to try and return? also they want you to log in and that seems to time out for me. ive been grazing this thread for a while now, i am a complete noob to soldering, so ive been pretty nervous about doing this but i think i am ready to try. thanx for your help._

 

the 24hr samples is where you can order the free samples. You can get a max of 3 and you might have to pay S/H.

 I wouldn't advise you do this mod if you don't have much soldering experience. The card acts like a heatsink and is a PITA to solder at times. Also, SOIC op-amps aren't exactly beginners level.


----------



## theBigD

ok i just ordered 3 sample lm4562 opamps. i am also getting a govibe v5s, and op amp rolling with it will the lm4562 roll into the govibe? does it need to be soldered onto an adapter? i am thinking i could practice a little soldering this and rolling into govibe.


----------



## McKebapp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *McKebapp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hmm... I'll receive my LM4562MA's tomorrow. Do you guys think, that a try&error method will help with my/our issue?

 I'd solder one IC out, reinstall the soundcard to my rig, and listen which pair of speakers don't work anymore. Then I'd do this with the second one, and so on.

 Or will this damage my soundcard, if I run it without one IC?

 Thnx,

 McK

 (please excuse my poor English 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )_

 


 O.k.. Even if nobody didn't answer, I made my try and error method. The soundcard still works. With the missing IC, the two "missing" channels only were a little more quiet then with soldered IC!? Are there any more IC mods for the complete analog stage?

 Unfortunately I discovered this:





 Now, after all, I've changed every IC, except the one for "side left + subwoofer", 'cause I've only three 4562MA's.

 Is there anybody out, willing to sell me a fourth one _please_ ?


----------



## phalanger

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pm@c* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Nobody is really answering my question. Im asking if I should try to resolder the capacitor because I didnt do the best of job soldering it. Its a really sketchy soldering job and Im wondering how I would know if the capacitor was soldered correctly. Would the card not work or just sound worse? What does the capacitor mod do so that I can know if I soldered the capacitor correctly. Please PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE read my question and answer it, I know its difficult but please can someone just answer me._

 

If the soundcard works fine then its probably connecting well enough to work.. But ofcourse its not really a desirable way to attach a capacitor. You could try carefully drilling out the hole with a precision drill (from both sides to reduce the chance of damage to the board). you can also try to use a piece of metal (like a spare capacitor leg), bend it into an L shape and press it into the hole with your solder iron (on hot). if its only stuck there cause theres nothing to pull or push on that should work, if cutting it off has made it get *really* stuck then you might have to drill it out.


----------



## PPkiller

maybe you can try useing a multimeter and measure if there is any resistance from the leg of the capacitor to the other side of the board... i'm not sure if this method is reliable.. but it's better then nothing.. ^-^


----------



## Seba

I used a 1mm drill to drill out the capacitors holes. I bought a solder pump after I did the mods =)


----------



## cotdt

the legs are easy to solder if your iron is powerful enough. i got this iron for $2, and it got so hot that it can melt solder anywhere. too bad the metal tip of the iron also melted when i left it on for over 10 minutes one day.


----------



## phalanger

Yeah they're not too hard to get out if you to it right. But his problem is that he didn't pull it out but cut the legs off, leaving a small bit stuck in there (i did the same, wont happen again 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





). If its really stuck, take a precision drill to it. Apparantly seba already succesfully did so.


----------



## DSlayerZX

well... what I did is flooded the hole with solder, then apply anther wire through it while it is heated. This will push out the wire in the hole


----------



## YCH

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *]|[ GorE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Eager for the Audio Precision results._

 

Bah today I tried everything I could think of to get the Digital-In on my X-Fi to work but for some reason it doesn't (I enabled the Digital I/O, and un-muted Digital In in the mixer...looks like there's nothing else I can choose). I read somewhere that the X-Fi Digital In needed +5V digital signals to drive it, so I even hooked up the AP's SPDIF signal to a buffer so it was boosted from 2.5V to 5V...no luck. I was really hoping to be able to drive the X-Fi with the AP so I can make sweeps from 20Hz to 20kHz and produce pretty graphs for everyone to see 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 So far, the measurements I made with the AP and a software test tone generator were some THD+N numbers at a few frequencies and a few different volume settings. I also made some FFT plots. 

 I don't remember all the exact details now but in case some of you are curious, here are some numbers I remember off the top of my head:

 X-Fi ExtremeGamer Fatality Before Mod (All effects off, Wave Volume 100%)
 1) Entertainment Mode, Lineout @ 1.35V (master vol 85%): THD+N @ 1kHz: -96dB
 2) Entertainment Mode, Lineout @ 2.2V (master vol 100%): THD+N @ 1kHz: -94dB
 3) Entertainment Mode, Digital Out (master vol @ 85%): THD+N @ 1kHz: -101dB
 4) Entertainment Mode, Digital Out (master vol @ 100%): THD+N @ 1kHz: -103dB 

 * I took the Digital Out numbers just to get a reasonable reference as to what the best result may be without all the analog output circuitry. Looks like even with the lowest distortion opamps and ultra-low noise resistors, the output will hit a wall at around -103dB.

 This is just my first round of tests as I get things set up properly. The next time I measure the card I may actually use a realistic headphone load too (the numbers above were taken @ 100K I think set from within the AP). I'll get some more numbers after I change the opamps. However, if anyone knows how to get the Digital In to work on the X-Fi, or if there are suggestions to improve testing, let me know!!!


----------



## cotdt

Can you measure the transient intermodulation distortion? The LM4562 is reputed to have much better results than the jelly bean opamps (like the one on the stock X-Fi). As far as THD, all opamps will measure pretty much the same, which is to say extremely good.


----------



## YCH

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cotdt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Can you measure the transient intermodulation distortion? The LM4562 is reputed to have much better results than the jelly bean opamps (like the one on the stock X-Fi). As far as THD, all opamps will measure pretty much the same, which is to say extremely good._

 

I'm having some problems measuring TIM. I saw some standard IMD and TIM test signals and from the AP software, but without digital-in working on my X-Fi I don't really have a good way to test it. I don't want to use Analog-In on the X-Fi because from what I've measured, it degrades distortion/noise performance by around 6dB (which is a lot when I'm measuring really low level distortions) Also, I've never actually run a TIM test before, so if there are some standards for testing TIM, I'm all ears (or eyes since I can't hear you speak). 

 Regarding the THD+N performance of opamps, I think at their best settings they're pretty comparable, but depending on the supply rails, output level and load, things change quickly. If you look at the THD curves of the 4556A versus the LM4562 from their datasheets, they're actually quite different.


----------



## YCH

Also, for what it's worth, I recorded some square wave and triangle wave response...so in case I fail horribly at measuring the TIM, at least maybe the response graphs may show some differences between the 4556A and the LM4562.


----------



## hardnrg

Well, I've got 2 orders coming to me... one was $20 S&H, and one was free 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 so $20 for 6x 4562's... can't complain 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Will most probably do the mod to my Audigy2 ZS as well (pending a 3rd order)

 Picked up some micro side cutters, flux, and solder wick at work today... already have a variable iron, silver solder, silver conductive pen...

 So just have to order the Blackgates now...


----------



## Pm@c

So I love this mod now. I did the anti static bag mod, and it sounded horrible. I started reading how people didnt like it so I took it out and now the sound is wonderful. ALOT NICER. I love it. Absolutely love it.


----------



## theBigD

should you replace the input amp if you run dvd player through soundcard? do you replace with same opamp as output?


----------



## Pm@c

Yeah I cut the legs too short. Maybe ill try drilling out the holes tonight and resoldering.


----------



## cmos.gr

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pm@c* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So I love this mod now. I did the anti static bag mod, and it sounded horrible. I started reading how people didnt like it so I took it out and now the sound is wonderful. ALOT NICER. I love it. Absolutely love it._

 

Yeah...anti static bug is not a good idea


----------



## Pm@c

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *soloz2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_the 24hr samples is where you can order the free samples. You can get a max of 3 and you might have to pay S/H.

 I wouldn't advise you do this mod if you don't have much soldering experience. The card acts like a heatsink and is a PITA to solder at times. Also, SOIC op-amps aren't exactly beginners level._

 

Its funny (because of my situation) but soldering the op-amp was 100x easier than the capacitor (just because I cant get one of the legs out). I havent drilled it out yet cause I was watching the hockey game last night, but hopefully I get to it tonight and get the capacitor properly soldered.


----------



## theBigD

yeah, i though capacitor would be easier than the opamp to solder. any advice for capacitor? i ordered op amps and am ordering cap today. this will be my first soldering experience. any advice? also still trying to find out if i should replace input op amp with lm 4562?


----------



## cotdt

my advice is to get a hotter iron. they are only $2 each.


----------



## theBigD

what about changing the input op amp for running dvd player through computer?


----------



## Pm@c

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cotdt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_my advice is to get a hotter iron. they are only $2 each._

 

I paid 15 for mine and its 30W. Maybe a 60W? If I can find one...


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *theBigD* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_what about changing the input op amp for running dvd player through computer?_

 

yes, i have mentioned that you can change the input opamp.


----------



## theBigD

will a 40w iron from radioshack be enough? looking at adjustable temp irons they seem a little spendy. this will be my first project, and dont want to spend alot.


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *theBigD* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_will a 40w iron from radioshack be enough? looking at adjustable temp irons they seem a little spendy. this will be my first project, and dont want to spend alot._

 

No, but you can try it. My 60W iron was only $2.


----------



## Henmyr

I used a cheap 30W and it worked perfectly.


----------



## McKebapp

Well... The Watts are secondary....

 It's the temperature it's depending on.
 If you try to solder around 250°C, nothing will happen. At 450°C, you won't only solder the oamps, you'll also solder the most of the pcb and/or the 
 conductive strips (dunno the real English word!?).

 Try something around 300°C - 350°C at max. and everything will be fine. I use a so called "LÖTSTATION ST081" from www.conrad.de an everything worked fine.


----------



## theBigD

so radio shack says 40 watt pencil iron is around 600 deg. is this too hot?


----------



## phalanger

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *theBigD* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_so radio shack says 40 watt pencil iron is around 600 deg. is this too hot?_

 

Not if you work fast and know what youre doing. I would advise to get one with adjustable temperature if you can spare a few extra bucks.


----------



## hardnrg

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cotdt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_yes, i have mentioned that you can change the input opamp._

 

I noticed that... but I can't remember you saying if you could just use a 4562, or if the input op-amp is completely different to the 4556/8 and 4562...

 is the 33078 totally different? I really tried to find out on the Ti datasheet (MC33078) and then I realised I didn't have a clue what I was looking for lol


----------



## phalanger

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hardnrg* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I noticed that... but I can't remember you saying if you could just use a 4562, or if the input op-amp is completely different to the 4556/8 and 4562...

 is the 33078 totally different? I really tried to find out on the Ti datasheet (MC33078) and then I realised I didn't have a clue what I was looking for lol_

 

Yeah the 4562 should work in the line-in position aswell. I ordered a AD9631 sample for this position the other day after someone here recommended it, however looking at the pinout they dont seem compatible? 9631 seems to not be dual :|

http://www.onsemi.com/pub/Collateral/MC33078_PKG.GIF
http://www.analog.com/UploadedFiles/...D9631_9632.pdf


----------



## Pm@c

Man I ordered 3 more opamps like 3 weeks ago and they still arent here... maybe ill have to order another 3. I need full surround. Oh and my soldering iron is 30W and like 400 or so temp. It was easy soldering and the opamp, my only problem is that stuck leg. There seems to be NO soldering around it, its just stuck in there.. and it wont come out. I havent gotten to drilling it yet, I really should get on that.


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hardnrg* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I noticed that... but I can't remember you saying if you could just use a 4562, or if the input op-amp is completely different to the 4556/8 and 4562...

 is the 33078 totally different? I really tried to find out on the Ti datasheet (MC33078) and then I realised I didn't have a clue what I was looking for lol_

 

i used LM4562.


----------



## phalanger

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hardnrg* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I noticed that... but I can't remember you saying if you could just use a 4562, or if the input op-amp is completely different to the 4556/8 and 4562...

 is the 33078 totally different? I really tried to find out on the Ti datasheet (MC33078) and then I realised I didn't have a clue what I was looking for lol_

 

Since i mistakenly ordered a mono opamp sample (always double check recommendations 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





) i now ordered an AD8066 which seems a worthwhile try for the input opamp (aswell possibly as output opamp). Also ordered a few AD8599 which i'm gonna give a spin for the surround channels, since National is still charging quite a bit for 4562's and AD isnt, for me anyway, and they have some interesting opamps. AD8620 is an interesting one aswell but is a bit more costly and no free samples. Have a look around the sites of National and AD, they have a lot of opamps that in most cases will probably be compatible, id stick to fast opamps though, and ofcourse Dual, and 8pin SOIC. Browse the spec sheets for recommended applications.


----------



## Pm@c

phalanger;2961431 said:
			
		

> Also ordered a few AD8599 which i'm gonna give a spin for the surround channels, since National is still charging quite a bit for 4562's and AD isnt, for me anyway, and they have some interesting opamps. QUOTE]
> 
> I got my 4562's for free..


----------



## BigFNDeal

WOW! Now understand that I really don't have alot to compare to, as my old setup was no match for my new one, (<-- still in need of a pimeta, PLEASE COME BACK SOON MISTERX!!!) but all I can say is WOW! This new setup rocks! I can't wait to get an amp and this thing truly kick some butt! Thank you so much to Soloz2 and cotdt for thier help and for everyone in the forums. DO THIS MOD, you will be pleased in the end!


----------



## PPkiller

wow.. anti static bag really make a big difference.. i tried removing it and all the songs sound so muddy(the high freqency component seems to be less, making it sounds muddy)... with anti static bag back on improve the sound...


----------



## phalanger

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PPkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_wow.. anti static bag really make a big difference.. i tried removing it and all the songs sound so muddy(the high freqency component seems to be less, making it sounds muddy)... with anti static bag back on improve the sound..._

 

the modded Xfi should not sound 'muddy' without ESD shielding. But yeah the ESD bags do work nicely, I used several of them to build a cage of sorts around the card, but with enough breathing room between the card and the shielding layers. 

 I got confirmation of a bunch of opamps from AD being sent my way, so more soldering fun up soon 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 (line-in and surround chans) Pm@c: yeah some get them for free from National, not me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 but Analog sent them free of charge, maybe cause I used my uni address there and didn't with National. I'll probably try a few different ones on the line-in position to see which works best (my turntable tends to be hooked upto it and guitars), ill record some samples of each and compare and report if there are any notable differences.

 *grooving it to his pimped up XFi as he writes, thanks again cotdt 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




*


----------



## PPkiller

or maybe i rephrase... with anti static bag.. the highs is MUCH better...


----------



## Pm@c

Thats strange because the anti static bag had an adverse affect on the sound for me. With the anti-static bag on I was getting alot of crackling and harsh sounds. I didnt like it very much at all. I got rid of the bag and it sounds so much better. I think it might depend on your PC too, mine is crowded with lots of wires (which I NEED to clean up some day, although its been messy for the whole 2 years I have had it with no problems yet). but yeah I guess its just preference. I personally dont like the static bag.


----------



## hardnrg

Well, I did the LM4562 mod for the main line out, and the cap (470uF blackgate)...

 Here's a pic of my cunning use of masking tape to hold the new op-amp in place while I soldered the first corner, damn thing kept slipping around everytime it saw the soldering iron! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	









 and then here is the capacitor, mounted vertically, I have plenty of space, the soundcard is in the last (bottom) pci slot.






 I was going to try and do some kinda RMAA tests of before and after, but I'm just enjoying the new clarity and liveness of the music. It's like I have new ears lol

 cotdt, thankyou for making this guide/thread, I've made my own thread over at Overclockersclub.com if you would like to link to it or use pictures from it in this one


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## cotdt

ah i haven't been to overclockersclub for a while. yes i will post a link! cool!


----------



## BlackJackSkanz

Damn this should be a sticky.


----------



## phalanger

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hardnrg* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, I did the LM4562 mod for the main line out, and the cap (470uF blackgate)...

 Here's a pic of my cunning use of masking tape to hold the new op-amp in place while I soldered the first corner, damn thing kept slipping around everytime it saw the soldering iron! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Nice looking job hardnrg . The masking tape is a smart idea 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'll keep that in mind for next time cause those soic's do get very jumpy


----------



## Pm@c

See I cant keep my capacitor straight up like that. I had to keep the legs full length and bend it over, since I have a PhysX card (need to put it in the last spot and X-Fi in the top spot with my modem in between. My PC is REALLY crowded. I need a new one..


----------



## ViciousXUSMC

Guys im going to jump on the bandwagon here and mod my xfi xtreme music.

 I have 3 of the op-amps en-route from NS, I am still up in the air about changing out the power cap or not.

 If I do Im looking at probably a 

 470Uf 16v FK Black Gate (polarized)

 or a

 470Uf 16v N Black Gate (non polarized)

 Im still trying to determin the effects of a larger cap and if it lead to any of the problems I read about on page 25 of this thread, also the effects of polar vs non-polar. 

 I have like 8 more pages to read before I have read the whole thread but I wanted to post this up in the mean time.

 I am concerned with this:

  Quote:


 Ok, I've looked at the data.

 Input voltage is matched, pins are matched, output voltage is almost matched (LM4562 a little higher), LM4562 itself uses a little more power (few mA). 
 On the plus side: 
 LM4562 has 20V/us slew rate vs 3V/us of the old opamp. Distortion, noise rejection, etc.: it's all better. BUT...
 On the minus side:
 LM4562 is capable of delivering 23mA, while the old opamp can do 70mA. Also, the old opamp can handle low resistance loads better than the LM4562 (though it does lead to higher distortion). 

 The NJM4556 is specificly made for directly driving headphones, while the LM4562 is the better "preamp". My conclusion: it's close enough to use as a drop-in replacement, provided you know what you're doing. If you want to plug in your headphone without amplification, it's possible the original opamp is a better choice. 
 

So this applies to me directly, I run my soundcard to a splitter one goes to my sterio to amp for my speakers when I want to play loud or watch a movie. The other side goes to my headphones for when I want max SQ or have to be quiet. Note that I dont have both plugged in at the same time, I always unplug my headphones when not in use as to not actually have the signal running to two sources at once.

 Here is the specs on my headphones.

 Audio Technica A700's
 Type: Closed Dynamic 
 Driver Unit: 53mm, CCAW voice coil 
 Magnet: Neodymium 
 Frequency response: 5-35,000 Hz 
 Impedence: 64Î© 
 Max. Input Power: 500mW 
 Sensitivity: 102dB 

 They drive quite nice directly from the sound card wich was a priority of mine when I was buying them since I didnt want to have to buy an amp and also maybe use them with somthing like an Ipod down the road if need be.

 50% volume on the creative panel is about perfect for me, so based on what I quoted above, what do I need to expect to happen with my direct soundcard ==> headphone connection after I do the mod?


----------



## cotdt

the soundcard can drive your headphones, but consider getting an amp if you want good sound quality. if you're using 50% volume, then you're losing detail. the amount of detail and dynamics you lose is proportional to the amount of digital volume attenuation. the volume should always be set to 100% and the attenuation should be done in analog.


----------



## ViciousXUSMC

I can just plug them into my sterio as the amp, however I heard you lose SQ running a pre-amp like that and your best off directly from the sound card.

 Mayhaps I can rig an adapter from parts @ radio shack that has a 1/8 in/out with some resistance in the circut so I have proper listening volume at 100%, maybe an aduustable resistor of sorts??

 I cant tell a diffrence in SQ from 50% volume to 100% with my sterio and its a professional series type amp, also my speakers are what I would consider quality awell (Klipsh Quintet III) Infact I think I put the volume to 50% for my sterio vs 100% because there was distortion at 100% but its been so long I cant remember.


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ViciousXUSMC* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I can just plug them into my sterio as the amp, however I heard you lose SQ running a pre-amp like that and your best off directly from the sound card.

 Mayhaps I can rig an adapter from parts @ radio shack that has a 1/8 in/out with some resistance in the circut so I have proper listening volume at 100%, maybe an aduustable resistor of sorts??

 I cant tell a diffrence in SQ from 50% volume to 100% with my sterio and its a professional series type amp, also my speakers are what I would consider quality awell (Klipsh Quintet III) Infact I think I put the volume to 50% for my sterio vs 100% because there was distortion at 100% but its been so long I cant remember._

 

the output of your sound card has poor dampening compared to an amp. the improvements that come with an amp outweigh the disadvantages. consider that you attenuate the volume 1/8 of the original volume and play 16-bit music. then mathematically you are listening to 12-bit! try an experiment where you set your digital volume to minimum and your amp gain to the max, then listen. you'll notice that there is very little dynamics and it will sound flat and mushy. you might not notice with 50% but you're still losing bits.

 if you're going to do that resistor trick you might as well use a volume pot. in any case the sound quality won't be very good with the poor dampening of sound straight out of the sound card.


----------



## Herbal

ViciousXUSMC - installed my 1000uf Non-polar blackgate 1 month ago and since then have aquired over 200hrs of use and no issues whatsoever.


----------



## ViciousXUSMC

Thanks Herbal,

 @cotdt... what you say makes sense. I have noticed that phenomina before. I figured tho that its because you have no signal "power" or strenght and thus just need to turn it up some.

 I notice nothing diffrent from 10% to 50% but at 0 volume I just figured the signal is too weak, not that its a direct influence on signal quality.

 I actually thought on my own from trial and error that max volume was too much and causing distortions because the signal was over powered, and that some of the quality was now being subsituted for raw amplitude.

 Of course this is all on the other side of the tree for me, I am more familiar with say how a speaker works and the relationship of soundwaves and there amplitude and how high amplitude can cause sound wave distortions due to the inperfections of speakers. So I dont doubt what you say, but I have to play around with it some and see what happens.

 Im still doing the mod when the parts are here, I dont listen to my headphones nearly as often as I used too so I would benifit from the better SQ on my speakers. I will also try to power my headphones from the reciever and see if there is any noticable quality loss.

 When I use my headphones I go for maximum sound clairty and sound stage, usually 3dcmss mode, I figured it would be disturbed some running thru my reciver and equalizer even tho I havnt tried.


----------



## cotdt

if you're powering your headphones straight out of the soundcard, then yeah if you turn it up too much it will start clipping. it shouldn't be a problem for soundcard -> amp since the input impedance is very high (ie. the amp won't "suck" as much power as headphones).

 yes, you'll need DSPs to get some soundstage out of your headphones. or consider getting a K701.


----------



## Seba

I could hear noticeable difference in dynamics between 90% and 100% volumes from the soundcard. Music kinda opens up more when it is set to 100%. I use to keep the 90% because old soundcards and cheap computer speakers seem to have distortion if set to full volume, but I have no problems with the latest set.


----------



## ViciousXUSMC

I was right about the problems at 100%. Not driving my headphones directly (100% would blow my ears up) but 100% out on the computer going into my sterio reciever gives me some craking on certian songs in the high treble. Im doing 90% now vs the 50% I was at and so far no issues.

 Also having 100% makes my volume so touchy on my reciever (its super powerfull 135w per channel and just pushing small spekers right now)

 Not sure what the deal is with the poping/cracking, I coudlnt hear a diffrence between 90 and 100% myself anyways.


----------



## Awake77

I just wanted to pop in and say thanks to cotd and everyone else for this awesome thread!! I just modded my X-Fi XtremeGamer with the BlackGate 2200uf and LM4562 on the main out.

 The improvement in sound quality is dramatic - my X-Fi is a pleasure to listen to know and sounds nearly as nice as my Echo Layla 24 (a pro audio interface).

 I'd like to try replacing the op-amps and caps on the breakout box too...has anyone done this yet?

 Thanks,
 A77


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Awake77* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just wanted to pop in and say thanks to cotd and everyone else for this awesome thread!! I just modded my X-Fi XtremeGamer with the BlackGate 2200uf and LM4562 on the main out.

 The improvement in sound quality is dramatic - my X-Fi is a pleasure to listen to know and sounds nearly as nice as my Echo Layla 24 (a pro audio interface).

 I'd like to try replacing the op-amps and caps on the breakout box too...has anyone done this yet?

 Thanks,
 A77_

 

glad you like it. i've modded the breakout box, but it sounds best straight out of the soundcard. it's worth modding if you have no choice but to use it, though.


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ViciousXUSMC* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I was right about the problems at 100%. Not driving my headphones directly (100% would blow my ears up) but 100% out on the computer going into my sterio reciever gives me some craking on certian songs in the high treble. Im doing 90% now vs the 50% I was at and so far no issues._

 

strange, but don't worry you're not the only person who reported this problem. i was never able to figure out what the problem is since i've never experienced it myself.


----------



## Awake77

Quote:


 glad you like it. i've modded the breakout box, but it sounds best straight out of the soundcard. it's worth modding if you have no choice but to use it, though. 
 

What did you do to mod the breakout box? Just swap out the op-amps?

 I dont need to use it I guess but I like plugging into it for gaming, etc. If it makes a difference Id like to give it a shot.

 Thanks!
 A77


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Awake77* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What did you do to mod the breakout box? Just swap out the op-amps?

 I dont need to use it I guess but I like plugging into it for gaming, etc. If it makes a difference Id like to give it a shot.

 Thanks!
 A77_

 

i also used LM4562, but there are just too many things that can be modded on the breakout box, you might as well make your own breakout box. personally i would stick a nicer headphone amp in there.


----------



## trodas

I would like to do this mod as well, but since I already exchanged some caps on my X-Fi Fatal1ty ( http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=219118 ) so I would rather measure the RMAA results first now, as they are, and then compare what each change do to the X-Fi sound quality.

 The thing is, I can't seems to get the RMAA work with my X-Fi 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 I definitively will contribute my RMAA result - as soon, as I figure out where to plug the loopback thing I made... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Getting weird results (eg. the RMAA complaining that signal is too high or low, no matter what I do - or that there are too many noise in the signal and definitively the signal is unbalanced...) when using the jack to jack cable between the mic input and "green" output, supposedly used for the 2/2.1 channels output... Any ideas?

 Also I have question about the big Audio rated caps used there. I measured and on the cap 1.25V on it and like 50mV ripple = it must, simply MUST be a just power line for the circuit.
 It is connected to the chip Vcore pin and it it - on the other side - connected to that voltage regulator thing on the card.

 So in a voltage filtering job perform simply MUCH better Low or Super Low ESR caps (like Panny FM, Samxon GC, Os-cons...) that the Audio caps, witch does suxx at the job badly. Hence we are back at my original question WHY use BlackGate cap there.
 If the sound get better - by some measurments like using RMAA - then I start looking where to gather one of these BlackGate cap. But I bet that when I exchange the Panny FM 470uF 16V I use there now for say like Sanyo Os-con ESVP 820uF 4V then nothing happen to the audio quality output.
 (even the difference between the caps specs are like night and day...)

 But the other mods sounds very reasonable to me - time to order the samples...


----------



## Awake77

Quote:


 i also used LM4562, but there are just too many things that can be modded on the breakout box, you might as well make your own breakout box. personally i would stick a nicer headphone amp in there. 
 

That's actually a great idea - any recommendations? Ideally I'd like to build my own headphone pre...


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Awake77* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's actually a great idea - any recommendations? Ideally I'd like to build my own headphone pre..._

 

any amp that can be powered by 12V would be nice. there are many choices.


----------



## cotdt

RMAA measurements have been discussed previously. According to it, the mods make no difference. According to it, the CMoy is one of the best amps ever...

 Bottom line is that it cannot do what are considered the more important measurements. If you want low ESR, the Blackgates are unbeatable in the realm of electrolytics.


----------



## LeonvB

Just picked up the opamps that finally arrived. Replacing the opamp was very easy, cutting the legs on one side and using a big iron to solder off the rest did the trick. A little of the masking tape did wonders for positioning the new opamp. Thanks for those tips.
 The difference is indeed bigger than swapping out the cap. IMO The cap improved mainly the low end, while the opamp dusts off the entire spectrum.


----------



## phalanger

I put a AD8599 in place of the 4562 today with good results (mostly for diagnostic reasons but also curiosity). The resulting sound is very good. Hard to say which is better but since a few have mentioned wondering about it i'd like to report it does work fine and sounds very nice. The reason I wasn't too sure is that on the AD site its rated for a higher voltage range than 5v (9-36v), but googling some more found me a info sheet that did mention 5v as being adequate.. either way yeah it works just fine 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It scored a bit better in RMAA i think then 4562 but ive not been able to do optimal tests on either opamp due to the same RMAA complaining about the signal being either too soft or clipped, which is why i tried the different opamp, but unfortunately that problem still exists even though when i do run RMAA the test results are still fairly good so it doesnt seem to be a serious issue. How is this for others, any problems getting RMAA to give the 'green light' without having to resort to increasing the recording level to >0dB?
 Since I started modding this card right away I don't know if its any different with stock parts. I thought it was just me having this problem but since someone else mentioned the exact same, Im curious how RMAA goes for others.

 Also I cleaned the mods up a bit and reshorted the coupling caps (the nice way this time 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). tomorrow ill do the line-in and surround opamps 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Does anyone know if any (and if so, which) capacitors are in the line-in signal path?

 And yes the masking tape made it a breeze to put/keep the SOIC in place while soldering the first legs, thanks again for that tip


----------



## cotdt

very nice, phalanger. which opamp works better unamped?


----------



## Awake77

Quote:


 Also I cleaned the mods up a bit and reshorted the coupling caps (the nice way this time ). 
 

Did shorting the caps make a noticeable difference? I havent done that to my x-Fi yet...


----------



## phalanger

cotdt: I cant really say, I tend to plug the headphones into a 7.1 amp, but I have had it plugged directly aswell with the 4562, ill try with the 8599 soonish and let you know if it seems clearly better or worse for feeding phones directly. 4562 did so-so on my 595's. I won't try right now yet cause as you mightve spotted i put in a different power cap which might give a bit unreliable basses while it settles in a bit. Atleast its a regular polarized one so Ill give it a try tomorrow orso, no serious settling problems so far like with the red ones 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Even though its impossible to be objective about this sort of thing I'll say I'm not unhappy I put in the 8599 despite it not solving the RMAA problem, I would say it sounds atleast as nice as the 4562, anything else I'd say would be highly subjective so I'll keep it short. I like them both a lot, but would tend to choose the 8599 if I had to choose again. It seems the 8599 is a bit more open/transparant and lively, but I cant really flaw the 4562 on those areas either. The transparancy seems especially apparant on high-quality voice-only or single instrument recordings (used Chesky's demonstration cd for first impressions)

 Tomorrow another 8599 is going in the line-in position, Im curious if that will give as significant an improvement to the input as replacing the output opamps did for the output. 

 Awake77: Yeah shorting the caps makes a difference. As coupling caps are redundant in most systems its just unneeded capacitors in the signal path, which degrades the sound. Before I shorted them I had nonpolar blackgates in there which have good audio properties. Still it sounds noticably more opened up without any caps at all. Its very easy to just short them without removing them to see if you like it and if you want take some measurements of the voltage on the outputs. If you plug in your headphones directly into the soundcard you might want to keep the caps, when it connects to an amp there should be no need for them.


----------



## cotdt

great, phalanger! i really like reading your posts. now i think it is time for you to build your own DAC, using discrete outputs


----------



## phalanger

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cotdt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_great, phalanger! i really like reading your posts. now i think it is time for you to build your own DAC, using discrete outputs 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

hehe and make these mods redundant 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 is building a 24bit DAC a feasible DIY? I remember my first DIY project some 15 years ago, an 8 bit DAC made up from a handful of resistors 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 btw my multimeter shows ~0.1v DC over the front channel outputs now (not entirely surprising I guess as its what the coupling caps are there for). Is this an issue at all when using an amp or will the coupling just happen within the amp now instead of the soundcard? (the DC is gone on the output-end of the amp)


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *phalanger* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_hehe and make these mods redundant 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 is building a 24bit DAC a feasible DIY? I remember my first DIY project some 15 years ago, an 8 bit DAC made up from a handful of resistors 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 btw my multimeter shows ~0.1v DC over the front channel outputs now (not entirely surprising I guess as its what the coupling caps are there for). Is this an issue at all when using an amp or will the coupling just happen within the amp now instead of the soundcard?_

 

the amp has its own input coupling caps, so you're fine.

 yes making your own DACs is very easy. the easy way would be to get an evaluation board for the DAC chip, a power supply (make or buy), and the analog output stage such as a Zapfilter. put into chassis and there is your DAC. i like the AD and AKM DAC chips. you can get the AD1852 DAC board for like $40 from diykits.hk.


----------



## zbomb56

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *phalanger* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I put a AD8599 in place of the 4562 today with good results (mostly for diagnostic reasons but also curiosity). The resulting sound is very good. Hard to say which is better but since a few have mentioned wondering about it i'd like to report it does work fine and sounds very nice. The reason I wasn't too sure is that on the AD site its rated for a higher voltage range than 5v (9-36v), but googling some more found me a info sheet that did mention 5v as being adequate.. either way yeah it works just fine 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It scored a bit better in RMAA i think then 4562 but ive not been able to do optimal tests on either opamp due to the same RMAA complaining about the signal being either too soft or clipped, which is why i tried the different opamp, but unfortunately that problem still exists even though when i do run RMAA the test results are still fairly good so it doesnt seem to be a serious issue. How is this for others, any problems getting RMAA to give the 'green light' without having to resort to increasing the recording level to >0dB?
 Since I started modding this card right away I don't know if its any different with stock parts. I thought it was just me having this problem but since someone else mentioned the exact same, Im curious how RMAA goes for others._

 

My cousin first installed the lm4562 in his xtrememusic card, so i decided to try out the ad8599 after hearing good things about it, it completely lacked low end and mid bass punch compared to the lm4562. Mid bass punch is a must have for me, didn't have the snap of the lm4562 in my opinion. So i swapped it out for the lm4562 and it sounds great, way better bottom end then the ad8599 imo. Have any of you noticed the same thing with the ad8599? or do you think i might have had a bad ad8599 and i should try out a different one, i have about 4 of them just sitting in a small package.

 I also added the 1000uf blackgate cap and shorted the coupling caps, sounds great. my 5.1 logitech x-530's also came in so i should probably change out the other opamps to lm4562's also, or should i do a mix with the ad8599 on the surround opamps? I wonder if the x-530's will sound better than my current altec lansing ATP3's.

 thanks for this thread cotdt and everyone else who has contributed, great info and made getting the xtrememusic an easy choice, especially since i only had to pay for the cap thanks to my school email.


----------



## phalanger

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *zbomb56* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My cousin first installed the lm4562 in his xtrememusic card, so i decided to try out the ad8599 after hearing good things about it, it completely lacked low end and mid bass punch compared to the lm4562. Mid bass punch is a must have for me, didn't have the snap of the lm4562 in my opinion. So i swapped it out for the lm4562 and it sounds great, way better bottom end then the ad8599 imo. Have any of you noticed the same thing with the ad8599?_

 

I can't say I noticed a lack of bass, though I wouldnt be surprised if the 8599 has more emphasis on the mids and highs compared to the 4562. On Chesky's reference CD i noticed things the AD8599 does particularly well but most of that doesnt happen in the bass-end . Since you asked, I put on some bass-heavy music and it does seem a bit less bassy. I suppose preference would be atleast partly based on the kind of music played. The AD8066 reportedly has a very nice bass response if thats what youre looking for. I may or may not be bothered to try one of those on that position aswell, since I do have a few of them around. For hooking headphones straight into the soundcard the AD8066 just might be better then both the 4562 and the 8599, but thats speculation until I tried it.

  Quote:


 I also added the 1000uf blackgate cap and shorted the coupling caps, sounds great. my 5.1 logitech x-530's also came in so i should probably change out the other opamps to lm4562's also, or should i do a mix with the ad8599 on the surround opamps? I wonder if the x-530's will sound better than my current altec lansing ATP3's. 
 

The speaker sets you mentioned are low budget computerspeakers, they're not going to benefit too much from the high specs of these opamps. If that's what you listen to music with then I wonder why soundcard modding came to mind.. or do you spend most listening time with headphones instead? For mixing opamps the real reason I do that is cause I dont have 4 of the same opamps.. It might be interesting for the tonal picture too though, but I'd keep with atleast driving both rears with the same opamps to retain some sort of logic coherency. 

 BTW your old altec lansing might just outperform your new Logitech. I guess you're about to find out 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It's your first post i just noticed, dare i say it? 'welcome to head-fi, sorry about your wallet'. If you stick around, a bout of upgradititis is bound to strike you sooner rather than later


----------



## djork

Reporting my success with the mod. Spent a good 30 mins with it - i'd say the opamp part was the easiest. i didn't destroy the original op amp by cutting the legs though.

 As expected, the power cap part was a pain in the arse. i gave up trying to make a hole through it, but soldered it at the back instead 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I lack the vocab to describe the improvements, but it was definitely noticeable, the mids felt so much better than the old amp! incredible, only if creative has made the right op-amp choice in the first place!

 The soundstage is somewhat wider, and the instruments seems "brighter"...! aww! Thanks to the threadstarter, you made my day!


----------



## phalanger

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *djork* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Reporting my success with the mod. Spent a good 30 mins with it - i'd say the opamp part was the easiest. i didn't destroy the original op amp by cutting the legs though.

 As expected, the power cap part was a pain in the arse. i gave up trying to make a hole through it, but soldered it at the back instead 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Welcome to team hotrodded-xfi 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Why won't the hole of the capacitor clear? Are you unable to melt the tin or is there a stuck piece of leg? Capacitors should not dangle on a PCB hanging from only some tin, but go through the via hole thingy for proper connection and reliability, especially for caps this large. If you have a dremel and a drill bit of 1mm or less then this is easy to fix.


----------



## djork

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *phalanger* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Welcome to team hotrodded-xfi 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Why won't the hole of the capacitor clear? Are you unable to melt the tin or is there a stuck piece of leg? Capacitors should not dangle on a PCB hanging from only some tin, but go through the via hole thingy for proper connection and reliability, especially for caps this large. If you have a dremel and a drill bit of 1mm or less then this is easy to fix._

 

I'd like to fix it too. but i don't have a dremel... the tin was almost impossible to melt, even with the desoldering wick it was such a difficult task. Is a 40W iron insufficient? but the op amps were easy to desolder though. hmm...


----------



## zbomb56

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *phalanger* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I can't say I noticed a lack of bass, though I wouldnt be surprised if the 8599 has more emphasis on the mids and highs compared to the 4562. On Chesky's reference CD i noticed things the AD8599 does particularly well but most of that doesnt happen in the bass-end . Since you asked, I put on some bass-heavy music and it does seem a bit less bassy. I suppose preference would be atleast partly based on the kind of music played. The AD8066 reportedly has a very nice bass response if thats what youre looking for. I may or may not be bothered to try one of those on that position aswell, since I do have a few of them around. For hooking headphones straight into the soundcard the AD8066 just might be better then both the 4562 and the 8599, but thats speculation until I tried it.

 The speaker sets you mentioned are low budget computerspeakers, they're not going to benefit too much from the high specs of these opamps. If that's what you listen to music with then I wonder why soundcard modding came to mind.. or do you spend most listening time with headphones instead? For mixing opamps the real reason I do that is cause I dont have 4 of the same opamps.. It might be interesting for the tonal picture too though, but I'd keep with atleast driving both rears with the same opamps to retain some sort of logic coherency. 

 BTW your old altec lansing might just outperform your new Logitech. I guess you're about to find out 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It's your first post i just noticed, dare i say it? 'welcome to head-fi, sorry about your wallet'. If you stick around, a bout of upgradititis is bound to strike you sooner rather than later 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

thanks phalanger, i actually compared both opamps with a pretty nice set of sennheiser headphones, jut wanted to test the sounds of instruments and so on, wasn't too much worried about soundstage right away. At first i was thinking the ad8599 might be better, thought it sounded cleaner. Then I noticed the lm4562 had more snap to certain things, which made me prefer it over the ad8599. You can definitely notice the punch/snap that the ad8599's lack with certain songs that have some very rapid drum beats. I didn't worry too much about the sound stage, but i have some audio reference cd's since i use to compete in sq comps for car audio, even have a few friends that won world champs iasca this last year in missouri. I am pretty familiar with sound stage scoring and tonality, etc.

 The x-530 is just a temp setup since i wanted to try a 5.1 set to just play with, i will be upgrading to a high end 5.1 or even 7.1 setup over the summer. I go all out in my final decisions of what i want, when my car was broken into and my sound system stolen, i got back $7k+, and most of the stuff was brands people haven't heard of, very high end stuff (zapco, horns, pioneer d9, not sure if you are familiar with those). Either way, the mods to the xtrememusic made a huge difference even on my altec lansing 2.1 set, so a difference is a difference, and i notice it so i am happy. I can't wait to get a nice surround sound setup, then i know i will get the best performance out of this sound card.

 I definitely know about the wallet hurting, it always hurts and i never give it time to recover. I have one of those mind sets where i don't want to get something and wish i had gotten something slightly better, so i usually try to set it up the best i can the first time around which means spending more money. You should have seen me a few years ago when i was setting up a sound system for my car, went through about 7 different setups before i started my last one that was stolen, i really thought that was going to be the one, but then i switched over to car performance (been out of the audio scene for a while), and then i saw this thread and decided to do this since i built a computer a few months ago, still need a video card and waiting on dx10.


----------



## phalanger

Quote:


 thanks phalanger, i actually compared both opamps with a pretty nice set of sennheiser headphones, jut wanted to test the sounds of instruments and so on, wasn't too much worried about soundstage right away. At first i was thinking the ad8599 might be better, thought it sounded cleaner. Then I noticed the lm4562 had more snap to certain things, which made me prefer it over the ad8599. You can definitely notice the punch/snap that the ad8599's lack with certain songs that have some very rapid drum beats. I didn't worry too much about the sound stage, but i have some audio reference cd's since i use to compete in sq comps for car audio, even have a few friends that won world champs iasca this last year in missouri. I am pretty familiar with sound stage scoring and tonality, etc. 
 

Which sennheisers? And directly into the XFi or through your amp? Im asking cause when plugged in directly the perceived difference could have to do with the impedance of the headphone aswell, some opamps drive headphones better then others, without being better opamps perse.
 That said, our experience seems to be similar for the most part - the AD8599 sounding somewhat 'cleaner'/'more transparant' and the 4562 seeming to have a bit more impact on the basses. 

  Quote:


 Either way, the mods to the xtrememusic made a huge difference even on my altec lansing 2.1 set, so a difference is a difference, and i notice it so i am happy. I can't wait to get a nice surround sound setup, then i know i will get the best performance out of this sound card. 
 

Indeed, you just created yourself a really nice source component with a lot of potential, now the hunt for amps, speakers, headphones, etc, can begin 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Welcome again, lots of audiophile knowledge to be found here.


----------



## phalanger

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *djork* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'd like to fix it too. but i don't have a dremel... the tin was almost impossible to melt, even with the desoldering wick it was such a difficult task. Is a 40W iron insufficient? but the op amps were easy to desolder though. hmm..._

 

Yeah they use really annoying solder tin at the creative factories and the board sucks away the heat. Wattage doesn't say so much about what temperature they get, and adjustable heat is a nice thing to have cause as you noticed, the SOICs dont require or desire anything near the amount of heat (though its still fine with a hot iron, just work quick). Me and others have given some suggestions for trying to poke free clogged holes with a cap-leg pressed with hot iron, etc, you're not the only one who had that problem.

 If that doesnt work then, well, you know you always wanted a dremel tool! Here's your excuse to get one 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 You can get very decent Dremel clones for not much money. Just look for adjustable speed and if its of decent build quality, replacable brushes etc. And get proper drills/bits as the cheap ones come with crap. But then it's still not a big investment, and dremel tools are great to have around.


----------



## zbomb56

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *phalanger* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Which sennheisers? And directly into the XFi or through your amp? Im asking cause when plugged in directly the perceived difference could have to do with the impedance of the headphone aswell, some opamps drive headphones better then others, without being better opamps perse.
 That said, our experience seems to be similar for the most part - the AD8599 sounding somewhat 'cleaner'/'more transparant' and the 4562 seeming to have a bit more impact on the basses. _

 

They were sennheiser HD580's plugged in through an amp. But i found the midbass/bass to lack with the altec ATP3's also. And you were right, the x-530 sound is horrible for my tastes, selling them on craigslist at the moment. I would rather just play with the 2.1 until i really dish out some money for a nice 5.1 system.

 I think i will just stick with the lm4562's for now, i am pretty happy with them and it seems like there are pros/cons to both opamps, so it is pretty much a toss up as to what you like.


----------



## phalanger

Yeah after hearing various genres of music I think it's indeed a tossup. I did do a (ear-based) frequency range test to see if there was a rolloff of basses but the lower frequencies responded with no notable rolloff until the one that is to be expected by limit of my ears and/or amp/speakers/phones. 

 I also put a AD8599 as the input opamp and first impressions are excellent. I'll compare some recordings i made with both opamps later on to see about differences.
 I spent some time reading ADC schematics and measuring connectivity on many points trying to find input coupling caps. The 3 near the input plug seem likely suspects, problem is its a flexijack so its line-in/mic in/digital i/o, and then theres the aux-in above it, so its a fairly complex path. The ADC datasheet says there should be two 10uF caps in the input path. I have a few suspects but until I figure out more I won't put in any precious audio caps just yet. Anyone else looked into this?


----------



## hardnrg

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *phalanger* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_And yes the masking tape made it a breeze to put/keep the SOIC in place while soldering the first legs, thanks again for that tip 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

Hehe, I didn't even realise it was a tip 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I just did it out of necessity, I have pretty steady hands, but not steady enough to start the mod without the tape! lol


----------



## phalanger

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *zbomb56* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My cousin first installed the lm4562 in his xtrememusic card, so i decided to try out the ad8599 after hearing good things about it, it completely lacked low end and mid bass punch compared to the lm4562. Mid bass punch is a must have for me, didn't have the snap of the lm4562 in my opinion. So i swapped it out for the lm4562 and it sounds great, way better bottom end then the ad8599 imo. Have any of you noticed the same thing with the ad8599? or do you think i might have had a bad ad8599 and i should try out a different one, i have about 4 of them just sitting in a small package._

 

I was wondering how long did you have the 8599 in when you decided it lacked bass? Cause where yesterday I agreed it had less of a punchy bass then 4562, right now I would not repeat saying that. In fact I even turned off the equalizer which i usually use(d) to get a bit more bass response from my headphones. I don't know if opamps can need settling in time aswell or if its a burning in of the ears 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I put it in 2 or 3 days ago. Also the burn-in of the capacitor may be a factor. Did you change yours? at the same time as the opamp? I did mine, so it could be either.

 For cotdt: i plugged the 595s into the soundcard straight with the 8599 as you asked. Hard to be specific in comparing with distant memory, but it does drive these headphones quite adequately. No lack in lower frequencies here either. Sound was quite nice actually.. the amount of detail between a 8599 opamp and 595 headphones is pretty amazing. I really like this opamp for its detail and transparancy.

 But I think both are great, next week somewhere I should have it set up in such a way that i can directly A/B compare them, since i decided to use 4562's for the rear speakers and my 7.1 cable turns both front and rear outs into stereo jacks, making for easy swapping and comparison.


----------



## kirimaru

yeh,you are right i also experienced similar results in the begining,after one week of burning in it sounded even way better,now it sound very detailed and transparent.
 you feel that the singer is singing in front of you and the instruments around you.
 i have to admit,i never heard so detailed opamp in my life,the music come alive,its just amazing.
 i am not saying that ad8599 is better then lm4562,keep in mind that both have there pros and cons and they a diferent sound singnature.


----------



## djork

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kirimaru* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_yeh,you are right i also experienced similar results in the begining,after one week of burning in it sounded even way better,now it sound very detailed and transparent.
 you feel that the singer is singing in front of you and the instruments around you.
 i have to admit,i never heard so detailed opamp in my life,the music come alive,its just amazing.
 i am not saying that ad8599 is better then lm4562,keep in mind that both have there pros and cons and they a diferent sound singnature._

 

it's the biggest improvement of sound to my pc for the least amount of money ever!


----------



## phalanger

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kirimaru* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_yeh,you are right i also experienced similar results in the begining,after one week of burning in it sounded even way better,now it sound very detailed and transparent.
 you feel that the singer is singing in front of you and the instruments around you.
 i have to admit,i never heard so detailed opamp in my life,the music come alive,its just amazing.
 i am not saying that ad8599 is better then lm4562,keep in mind that both have there pros and cons and they a diferent sound singnature._

 

Yep i think you're right, as a few more days pass by the sound seems to get better and richer still. I must say I'm quite impressed with this opamp! detail and transparancy are definately the keywords, but it is also very musical and plenty of rich bass, maybe its the jfet design making it need some time to reach its full potential, i dont know enough about that sort of thing to tell, but it definately took a few days to really come to life, and right now i'm totally in love with its sound <3
 I still won't say a bad word about the 4562 because i liked that one a lot aswell, but personally my preference is with this one, its at the least an equally good alternative with probably better luck on getting free samples.. at the moment anyway. Very recommendable for the line-in aswell if you use that for anything hifi related.


----------



## zbomb56

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *phalanger* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I was wondering how long did you have the 8599 in when you decided it lacked bass? Cause where yesterday I agreed it had less of a punchy bass then 4562, right now I would not repeat saying that. In fact I even turned off the equalizer which i usually use(d) to get a bit more bass response from my headphones. I don't know if opamps can need settling in time aswell or if its a burning in of the ears 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I put it in 2 or 3 days ago. Also the burn-in of the capacitor may be a factor. Did you change yours? at the same time as the opamp? I did mine, so it could be either.

 But I think both are great, next week somewhere I should have it set up in such a way that i can directly A/B compare them, since i decided to use 4562's for the rear speakers and my 7.1 cable turns both front and rear outs into stereo jacks, making for easy swapping and comparison._

 

I only played with them for about an hour before i decided the lm4562 was the sound i preferred. Not sure if it would have helped to let everything break in a little more, but i think either choice is fine.

 Glad to hear you are liking those ad8599's though.

 and i have the blackgate FK series 1000uf 16v cap in my card, my cousin has the standard polarized. But the ad8599 was only tested with the standard polarized cap.


----------



## Evisu

can it use OPA627 opamp?


----------



## eriksson

Just put the 2200uf BlackGate capacitor on my X-Fi Xtrememusic 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Liking the bolder sound, thanks for the guide!


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Evisu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_can it use OPA627 opamp?_

 

No, a dual opamp is required. There is a way to use it, but if you have to ask, it's probably too complicated for you. There are better sounding opamps anyway.


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *eriksson* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just put the 2200uf BlackGate capacitor on my X-Fi Xtrememusic 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Liking the bolder sound, thanks for the guide!_

 

glad you like it!


----------



## djork

Before the mod, I used to listen to the music with the CMSS3D / crystalizer on, now after the opamp & cap mod it sounds even better than with the "enhancements"!

 Loving it......


----------



## ichiboy

OCworkbench did an article on this-

link


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ichiboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_OCworkbench did an article on this-

link_

 

Cool! I'm amazed how many people are doing this mod. Will add link to original post.


----------



## Evisu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cotdt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No, a dual opamp is required. There is a way to use it, but if you have to ask, it's probably too complicated for you. There are better sounding opamps anyway._

 

Thanks for the answer, Cotdt. ill try to get LM4562MA.
 may i also ask which you prefer between the caps below? wanted to get better sound quality and dont have the money to fiddle around with different parts.

 FK 1000uF 16v BG (smaller in size better fits in pc, pinkfloyd mentioned its better quality) vs Standard 2200uF 16v BG
 Shorting the 4 caps near the opamp vs Replacing them with 22uf 16v BG (x4)?

 i apologize if you have already answered to this. i only skimmed thru the 1st 30 pages, may have missed it.


----------



## zoob

Replaced the opamp with the LM4562 today. Thanks for the guide! I just need to order and replace the capacitor next.


----------



## Evisu

woah DigiKey is charging me 37us (really expensive shipping and service fee) for one LM4562


----------



## zoob

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Evisu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_woah DigiKey is charging me 37us (really expensive shipping and service fee) for one LM4562 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Order samples from National. They sent me 3 for the cost of shipping (around $10 USD).


----------



## Evisu

was looking into ERS paper shielding the interference. and found something interesting

 a Soundcard shield, from taiwan 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 so i think it definitely have effect to some extent.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Auzen X-FI Prelude 7.1 PICTURE!!
http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/audio...html#post10627

 I though you X-fi modders may be interested in this.
 @Evisu, Nice find on that soundcard sheild. I will check it out. THX.


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Auzen X-FI Prelude 7.1 PICTURE!!
http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/audio...html#post10627

 I though you X-fi modders may be interested in this.
 @Evisu, Nice find on that soundcard sheild. I will check it out. THX._

 

Very, very nice. It pretty much makes this whole mod obsolete since it already uses LM4562, but too bad it will probably cost $199 or maybe even more.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Uses the LM4562NA's for the Fronts ONLY. It uses the 2134's for all other channels, which are also widley used in audio and sound good. When you guys mod your cards is it possible to put Sockets in there for normal Dip IC's are is the spacing to small?
 Guys will still want to do the mods.


----------



## Evisu

Cotdt for the Power filter cap, would you recommend spending a little more for the FK 1000uf 16v?


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Evisu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Cotdt for the Power filter cap, would you recommend spending a little more for the FK 1000uf 16v?_

 

Yes.


----------



## kirimaru

guys if you want more bass,rich and with even more extention,you can try blackgate nx,elna silmic 2 for decoupling.


----------



## Evisu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kirimaru* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_guys if you want more bass,rich and with even more extention,you can try blackgate nx,elna silmic 2 for decoupling._

 

decoupling = the 4 to short on the 1st page, rite?
 blackgates nx (6.3v or 16v ones?) > Short ?

 also, sorry for being a noob here, in x-meridian thread, they mentioned about "the individual caps on the Opamps "for the x-fi, does anyone happen to know which caps are those??
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=241403


----------



## Safrout

Hi all,

 I own a X-Fi xtrememusic and will receive a HD555 headphone the next week

 from this very LONG thread i concluded that the mod will give very nice results

 the problem is that i am located in Egypt and i can't find neither the amp nor the cap

 so does anyone know a site that have all of what i need for this mod and will ship to me ? or can anyone accept sending them to me after i pay him their price ???

 from what i have read i need 4 x lm4562 amp and 1 x 16v2200uf cap, anything else i need that may increase the sound quality ?

 also will i need to use an external amp for my headphones ??

 sorry for the long post and many questions

 Thanks in advance and sorry for bothering


----------



## ichiboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cotdt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Very, very nice. It pretty much makes this whole mod obsolete since it already uses LM4562, but too bad it will probably cost $199 or maybe even more._

 

They have better DAC's too.

 Oh well, this mod is cheaper still 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## phalanger

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Auzen X-FI Prelude 7.1 PICTURE!!
http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/audio...html#post10627

 I though you X-fi modders may be interested in this._

 

hehe yeah saw a pic of that a while back, didnt know it used the lm4562 though. Thats a sweet soundcard no doubt. Looks very well made. Wonder what it costs... I think those who succesfully did this mod to their stock XFi's will be content enough to not get more then just a bit jealous maybe of that 
 Nice components on that card though. any reviews on it yet?


----------



## phalanger

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Safrout* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi all,

 I own a X-Fi xtrememusic and will receive a HD555 headphone the next week

 from this very LONG thread i concluded that the mod will give very nice results

 the problem is that i am located in Egypt and i can't find neither the amp nor the cap

 so does anyone know a site that have all of what i need for this mod and will ship to me ? or can anyone accept sending them to me after i pay him their price ???

 from what i have read i need 4 x lm4562 amp and 1 x 16v2200uf cap, anything else i need that may increase the sound quality ?_

 

You can order the opamps straight from National Semiconductor's site (samples-you may or may not have to pay s&h). For capacitors you should also be able to just order online somewhere. I heard digikey mentioned several times, personally I have the luck to have some well stocked hi-fi stores in town so i can't recommend any specific online store.
 If you have no creditcard, analog devices tends to send samples free of charge and their AD8599 is a good alternative for the LM4562.
 Number of opamps you need depends what you want from your card:
 Stereo out: 1 opamp
 Surround out: 3 more opamps
 Line-in: 1 more opamp

 so yeah 4 opamps for surround out and no line-in change. Other possible improvements include electrostatic shielding, for which you could use ESR paper or bags, but this part of the mod seems to be more a matter of taste than an absolute must. Also may depend on your specific computer if theres a use for it. You probably do not want to short the coupling caps if you use your headphones directly with your soundcard.


----------



## kite7

Got my opamps today, just wondering if it's possible to desolder the opamps without any other tools but the iron itself


----------



## McKebapp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kite7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Got my opamps today, just wondering if it's possible to desolder the opamps without any other tools but the iron itself_

 

It is possible. I simply bent a needle and pushed it underneath the pins of the oamps. Then I placed a little more solder on the pins and they wrapped of, nearly, by themselves....


----------



## Awake77

Quote:


 guys if you want more bass,rich and with even more extention,you can try blackgate nx,elna silmic 2 for decoupling. 
 

Do you mean as replacements for the coupling caps?


----------



## Safrout

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *phalanger* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You can order the opamps straight from National Semiconductor's site (samples-you may or may not have to pay s&h)._

 

ya i i tried them and they refused to ship to Egypt


----------



## phalanger

terrorist!  did you try with analog devices aswell? As others have mentioned some 3rd party retailers do carry the chip aswell, even though often a bit overpriced. Numerous sources for both capacitors and opamps have been mentioned throughout this thread. All it needs now is a little effort to find places that ship to your country of residence for a reasonable price.
 I'm curious why National won't ship opamp samples to your country though.. But if they won't do it theres always Analog and Texas Instruments to try who both make great opamps aswell


----------



## Safrout

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *phalanger* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_terrorist!  did you try with analog devices aswell? As others have mentioned some 3rd party retailers do carry the chip aswell, even though often a bit overpriced. Numerous sources for both capacitors and opamps have been mentioned throughout this thread. All it needs now is a little effort to find places that ship to your country of residence for a reasonable price.
 I'm curious why National won't ship opamp samples to your country though.. But if they won't do it theres always Analog and Texas Instruments to try who both make great opamps aswell_

 

LOL

 i did order 6 of AD8599ARZ from analog.com

 and gonna search for a good enough cap here in Egypt next sunday

 are those amp i got good enough or should i wait till i find a way for getting the LM ?


----------



## kite7

I can't wait to hear mine today, got someone to do the mod for me since he's very high skilled in soldering and I don't want to screw mine up. Gotta wait until the evening to get it back


----------



## phalanger

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Safrout* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_LOL

 i did order 6 of AD8599ARZ from analog.com

 and gonna search for a good enough cap here in Egypt next sunday

 are those amp i got good enough or should i wait till i find a way for getting the LM ?_

 

The AD8599 is a great audio opamp just like the LM4562, I have tried them both and like the AD8599 atleast as much.


----------



## kirimaru

i am going to try to put 2 pairs of blackgates nx for L canceling to see how its afects to the sound.


----------



## Safrout

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *phalanger* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The AD8599 is a great audio opamp just like the LM4562, I have tried them both and like the AD8599 atleast as much._

 

Thanks


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kirimaru* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i am going to try to put 2 pairs of blackgates nx for L canceling to see how its afects to the sound._

 

Just make sure you burn them in. the nonpolars can flip polarity as they burn in, becoming unstable.


----------



## kite7

I just got my X-Fi back. The new opamps are incredible, so much better than the original opamps in every way and heck it hasn't even burned in yet 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	









 Do changing the opamp for the subwoofer make a big difference?


----------



## Evisu

anyone know which are the power supply Caps for the front channel opamp?


----------



## MrDerrick

Hi guys, new here.

 Just tried doing the mod and came with a big problem. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	








 Whilst removing the old opamp the 3rd copper rail came off with it!

 Can I bridge a wire from the 3rd leg to the back of the board or somewhere else? I tried tracing the track on the back but couldn't find it.
 Other then that great sound improvement, but no left channel


----------



## ironeisnna

Heh yours is nothing... I tried to do the mod for the opamp and SIX out of eight coper rails came off. I destroyed my card. Just an advice to anyone that wants to do the mod... The board is so fragile that can be VERY easily destroyed. Just a warning.


----------



## MrDerrick

Yeah, advice use a dremel to cut off the legs!!! Then remove with soldering iron. This will be easier, if only I knew from the start. Now I'm trying to trace the tracks. It still can be saved.


----------



## phalanger

MrDerrick: Yeah it can be saved, just find out where it connects to.
 Dremeling off the legs could work but why not just a mini sidecutter as has been shown several times in this thread? Personally I wouldnt trust the steadyness of my hands to cut off legs that tiny using an electric rotating blade..

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ironeisnna* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Heh yours is nothing... I tried to do the mod for the opamp and SIX out of eight coper rails came off. I destroyed my card. Just an advice to anyone that wants to do the mod... It's NOT that easy as many guys try to convince us. I have a degree in computer science and currently doing master in embedded systems. I really know how to work with the soldering iron. Yet again, the board is so fragile that can be VERY easily destroyed. Just a warning._

 

ironeissna: Sorry to hear about that, but you must have done something wrong if you ruined 6 out of 8 connectors while replacing 1 opamp, and others including myself have replaced all 5 opamps (some of them several times) and have had no problems at all with connectors coming loose. I'm curious how you went about removing the opamp. If you took with it all those connectors, my first thought is you probably tried to pull up the opamp while trying to melt the tin meanwhile, maybe while using some leverage to press the opamp up?

 I dont see how this could happen with first cutting off the opamp with sidecutters and then using copperwick to clean up the connectors. Not even in one out of 100 tries. I'll agree with you it's easy enough to destroy this board, but mostly by doing things the wrong way.


----------



## LeonvB

Quote:


 It's NOT that easy as many guys try to convince us. 
 

On the contrary: it's VERY easy, provided you know what you're doing. F.i.: I wouldn't use a dremel to cut the legs: the dust you get is conductive, you don't want that in your PC.
 Simplest way to do it: cut of the legs of the opamp on one side. I used an old Stanley knife: no mess to remove from the PCB afterwards. Bend the opamp upwards, remove the parts with braid. Lay the new opamp in place, and secure it with some tape. Solder half the legs, remove the tape and solder the remaining ones. The cap is even simpler as it only has 2 legs.

 For removal of parts I suggest using a powerful iron: if you apply force while the soldering is too cold, you'll wreck the board (as you've demonstrated). A big iron will allow you to work faster: the tip is big enough to touch all legs on one side at the same time. Less time on the board means less heat buildup in the remaining parts on the PCB, which is always a good thing.


----------



## phalanger

My 4562's for the back channel came in, all opamps replaced now:

 1xAD8599 for line-in
 1xAD8599 for L+R out
 2xLM4562 for L+R rear
 1xAD8066 for subwoofer (I use 5.1 not 7.1 so its irrelevant that the side channels are on different opamps)







 It may seem a bit random matchup but its not 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 the AD8599 for the line-in and main outs due to their exceptional detail and transparancy, the 4562's in the back because i can swap between 8599 and 4562's by a simple cable switch, and 8066 for sub cause I read good things abouts its deep bass response. The system is used in 2.1 most of the time, for music, and 5.1 mode for movies and sometimes for music (rare). 

 I'm still undecided what to do with the other coupling capacitors, either remove or replace. Putting all nonpolar blackgates there would get fairly expensive especially if shorting them would work even better. However I did have some problems with the main line-out which I don't think are caused by shorting the caps but i'm not entirely sure either.. 
 I asked before but not much response: is everyone able to get a green light from RMAA right away without hassle, or are there more people besides me and one or two who mentioned it, that had trouble getting a clean signal on peak output levels, such as RMAA requires. Especially from people who shorted the coupling caps I'd like to hear this.


----------



## ROBSCIX

I was told using different amps would yeild mixed results as some amps respond differently at different levels so they may sound louder or less then the others at set levels. So I was told. How does it sound?
 The 2227's also have a great bass response. Do you guys not have the room to just put sockets in there instead so you can try whatever amps you want.


----------



## phalanger

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I was told using different amps would yeild mixed results as some amps respond differently at different levels so they may sound louder or less then the others at set levels. So I was told. How does it sound?
 The 2227's also have a great bass response. Do you guys not have the room to just put sockets in there instead so you can try whatever amps you want._

 

95%+ of my use is for music which tends to be just 2 channels. Using different opamps may compromise the levels of the surround system (though I doubt the difference will be very significant), but for me thats of secondary importance. Besides you can set the relative volume of every speaker in the THX console anyway (or on the amp. this 'calibration' should be done either way unless you sit right in the center of all speakers). I preferred the ability to switch over having the most pure surround configuration. In my system there are other much more realistic reasons why I need to attenuate certain speakers over others to get a balanced sound, so for me this is no problem.

 As for sockets, anything is doable i guess, its a small surface though so itd be hard to just put on any socket, but i'm sure soic-to-socket thingies exist.


----------



## MrDerrick

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *phalanger* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_MrDerrick: Yeah it can be saved, just find out where it connects to._

 

MY eyes are bad, do you have any idea where it might go to?
http://img471.imageshack.us/my.php?image=xfieh9.jpg
 This image was posted way back in the thread. 
 I'm guessing it would be one of the 3 SMDs?

 EDIT: 


 A picture to show which ones I mean.


----------



## phalanger

Best view would be without the opamp in place. can't say from the picture really. macro-photos and magnifying glasses can help, best would be if someone use a multimeter on those points to see which it connects to. I had mine out enough for today but maybe someone else can? else I'll try to look for you next time i open up the pc


----------



## phalanger

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MrDerrick* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_MY eyes are bad, do you have any idea where it might go to?
http://img471.imageshack.us/my.php?image=xfieh9.jpg
 This image was posted way back in the thread. 
 I'm guessing it would be one of the 3 SMDs?

 EDIT: 


 A picture to show which ones I mean._

 

Ok I took a quick look

 According to my multimeter, in the picture you marked, the point(s) marked with '1' appears to connect to the connector thats missing on your PCB. 

 Hope that helps


----------



## brokensound

Has anyone attempted to mod the front panel box that comes with the X-fi platinum yet? I do wonder how it stacks up to different amps.


----------



## phalanger

After some pondering I recapped the surround coupling minus the subwoofer. The bigger size of the blackates becomes more of a problem as you replace more of them. To prevent having to use long bended legs on the caps I put the other 4 on the backside of the card (each lm4562 opamp having 2 caps on front and 2 on the back). 






 Now it's time for me to find a new project to mess with, this one is about as pimped up as I can think of, save a total recapping (which wouldnt be that much more work now 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 maybe some rainy bored day). It's been a good practice for soldering/desoldering


----------



## cotdt

phalanger, if you're interested in building a USB DAC from stratch, PM me and I've got some links to interesting projects that I will be taking up soon.


----------



## Safrout

what is a USB DAC ?


----------



## dimasdw

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Safrout* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_what is a USB DAC ?_

 

a Digital to Analog converter with USB connection maybe 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 i am using x-fi front panel to plug my headphone ..,is replace the main op amp can improve the sound from front panel ? or any another op amp should i replace ?


----------



## Seba

I put in an unmodified Xtrememusic in my computer to have some comparing before I mod that too.

 First thing I note that the bass doesn't go so low and it isn't so enjoyable, also a bit boomy in some places. Also those great little nuances in music are gone. I'm not sure about this but I can hear some hissing in vocal parts in songs. With LM4562 the singer sounds so much better and natural. Background hiss is also much more noticeable.

 For example Kraftwerk sounds so lame. It doesn't have that foot tapping drive.

 I only used AKG K701 to do the compare because I have listened mostly with these.


----------



## zoob

I finally received my Black Gates today and soldered it in. If you're having trouble with solder in the holes, heat it up from the back of the board and push the capacitor leg through at the same time. Doing that was much easier than trying to use wick to soak up the solder.


----------



## djbigbear

guys, i was wondering...







 will it be ok if i change A to 12xNichicon Gold 22uF 50v?
 and, will it be ok if i change B to 2xElna Cerafine 1000uf 35v?
 since locating blackgate in my country(indonesia) will be hard. and i don't have a cradit card to do international transaction.

 as for opamp, i think i go with what phalanger use.

 my friend modified his x-fi to this stage:








 and it did gave some pleasant results.
 he's using 3xOPA2134, 6xNichicon Gold 22mF 50v, and 1xElna Cerafine(dunno about the type tho)

 thank you.


----------



## tomtomvoj

First thanks for this wonderfull guide.

 I just want to ask *X-Fi xtreme music* is no longer avaliable. I heard that is it no longer in production. Will be Creative *X-Fi XtremeGamer Fatal1ty Pro* as good as Music? Have someone closer info about dac etc...

 Thank you very much 

 Tomas


----------



## cotdt

X-Fi XtremeGamer Fatal1ty Pro is the same card is the XtremeMusic, but has that 5.25" bay.

 Edit: it also has RAM


----------



## Seba

At least in Finland I bought a new Xtrememusic week ago. It's available as bulk-packed and the price is between 70-80 euros. It's a shame if they have ended the production of Xtrememusic because the next best thing is the Xtreme Gamer Fatal1ty which has the same board with X-ram. That costs 126 euros.


----------



## djbigbear

@cotdt
 can u help me with my question above? especially about elna cerafine...
 your help will be highly appreciated.


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *djbigbear* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_@cotdt
 can u help me with my question above? especially about elna cerafine...
 your help will be highly appreciated._

 

answer is yes. i've used ELNA Cerafine (the picture is earlier in this thread)


----------



## djbigbear

yes.. i did read this thread from page 1 till this page, but i'm not much of a wizz @ audio thingie, so i didn't quite get what u guys talking about (approx 70% of all post)
 but that cerafine of yours is humongous.... that's like 10KuF right?

 i mean, will it be ok if i use 1000uF 35v instead? and if u look (and please do) at my first pic. i'm planning to swap 2 of those with cerafine.

 thank you for your first reply. (i know how exhausting it is to answer noob questions all the time)


----------



## cotdt

answer is yes. you can use almost any values you want.


----------



## djbigbear

u don't know how happy i am to hear those
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 it's almost impossible to get blackgate here, even if i can, the price could be tripled or maybe more....

 thank you cotdt


----------



## phalanger

djbigbear: your friend's modified card looks weird.. Looks like he left the coupling caps for the main channels alone and replaced *half* of the ones for the surround channels? Those caps are in parallel, replacing half of them in that way would be a pretty undesirable modification. And what's that dark-red cap used for?


----------



## Seba

I ran into problems. First try I got nothing but noise from the left channel. I resoldered every opamps legs and the sound was fine for couple of minutes. Now the left channel is silent.

 Could it be the opamp legs or the 4 coupling capacitors?

 Edit: I resoldered the 4 coupling caps and now the sound is fine. Strange thing but thank god it's working now.


----------



## djbigbear

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *phalanger* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_djbigbear: your friend's modified card looks weird.. Looks like he left the coupling caps for the main channels alone and replaced *half* of the ones for the surround channels? Those caps are in parallel, replacing half of them in that way would be a pretty undesirable modification. And what's that dark-red cap used for?_

 

yes i know his modification is quite weird, and i'm a bit concerned too.
 but hey it actually perform better... that's why i thought this thread can make my x-fi even better.

 and i'm really interested with your modification phalanger. somehow it looks... promising.

 that dark red cap my friend using is elna cerafine and i don't know which type he use. and for the purpose of that red caps.... i'm totally clueless...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 so i thought it will be better if i use 2 elna cerafine 1000uF 35v both in his spot and beside the chipset.

 as for the caps beside op-amps (i really don't know what are those called) i'll follow your setup but all replaced with Nichicon 22uF 50v instead

 can i ask you about the cost to modify your x-fi? i need to calculate my budget since it will be much more expensive here...

 thank you phalanger, pardon my grammar


----------



## phalanger

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *djbigbear* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_yes i know his modification is quite weird, and i'm a bit concerned too.
 but hey it actually perform better... that's why i thought this thread can make my x-fi even better.

 and i'm really interested with your modification phalanger. somehow it looks... promising.

 that dark red cap my friend using is elna cerafine and i don't know which type he use. and for the purpose of that red caps.... i'm totally clueless...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 so i thought it will be better if i use 2 elna cerafine 1000uF 35v both in his spot and beside the chipset.

 as for the caps beside op-amps (i really don't know what are those called) i'll follow your setup but all replaced with Nichicon 22uF 50v instead

 can i ask you about the cost to modify your x-fi? i need to calculate my budget since it will be much more expensive here...

 thank you phalanger, pardon my grammar
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I'm not sure it's a good idea to replace a cap by one with a massively different capacity size, unless you know what that capacitor is there for and that the higher capacity is beneficial (as on the power-capacitor). It looks like its used for the AD-link connector that's near it, so unless you own/use an XFi I/O Console then it's a waste of your time/money either way.

 BTW do I see a piece of metalwire over one of the opamps? Did he rip off a connector and hardwire it? I wonder if MrDerrick got his bypass working aswell meanwhile.

 As for the cost.. it would depend a lot on what you count..

 AD8599's + AD8066 = free
 LM4562's = ~10€ (for 2 of them)
 Blackgate 1000uF nonpolar = 13€
 Blackgate 22uF nonpolar N-type = 4x4.50€
 Blackgate 22uF regular = 8x1.30€
 desolder wick = ~3€ for a roll that will last several jobs

 so a bit over 50€ (=70$) for all upgrades. It could be done significantly cheaper by using less nonpolars as they are quite expensive (worth it though if you can spare the extra $), and using all-free opamps is possible too.
 This assumes ofcourse you won't need to buy any additional tools to perform the job.


----------



## djbigbear

ahhhhh
 more enlightment...

 aaah, so that's for front panel... so i just cancel 1 elna cerafine.

 i will be using these components:
 1 x elna cerafine 1000uf 35v
 12 x Nichicon Gold 22uF 50v
 2 x AD8599
 2 x LM4562
 1 x AD8066

 and i don't think any of those caps ar nonpolar
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 but it should be fine right?
 and i suppose elna cerafine cost waaaay less than black gate....

 for modifying, i'd better pay an engineer to do the work... i'm not much of a precision worker... i got very chubby fingers... lol


----------



## Seba

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *djbigbear* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ahhhhh
 more enlightment...

 aaah, so that's for front panel... so i just cancel 1 elna cerafine.

 i will be using these components:
 1 x elna cerafine 1000uf 35v
 12 x Nichicon Gold 22uF 50v
 2 x AD8599
 2 x LM4562
 1 x AD8066

 and i don't think any of those caps ar nonpolar
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 but it should be fine right?
 and i suppose elna cerafine cost waaaay less than black gate....

 for modifying, i'd better pay an engineer to do the work... i'm not much of a precision worker... i got very chubby fingers... lol_

 

You don't have to buy caps rated for 35V or 50V, 16V will do fine or 25V. Isn't a 22uF 50V cap much bigger than 22uF 16V or 25V?


----------



## phalanger

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Seba* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You don't have to buy caps rated for 35V or 50V, 16V will do fine or 25V. Isn't a 22uF 50V cap much bigger than 22uF 16V or 25V?_

 

The size difference is not neccesarily very big but capacitors tend to perform best when staying somewhat near the ballpark range of their rated voltage. XFi uses 16v caps so that's plenty and 6.3v should still enough as the card gets 5v max as far as has been measured. Knowing that and that lower voltage caps tend to be a bit cheaper and smaller, 16v or 25v (or even 6.3v, at your own discretion) is definately preferable over 50v caps, if there's a choice anyway. If 50v/35v is your only choice then thats fine too.

 bigbear: the precision needed is only relative, the opamps probably look intimidatingly small but those are the easy parts to modify 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Removing the power capacitor is a bit tricky but not much of a precision job. 
 The trickiest part of your mod is that you plan to replace all of the coupling caps by bigger ones, that proved to be a bit of a puzzle of sorts and for best results needs some planning/trying before doing the final solders and cutting their legs of (btw those coupling caps are not hard to remove, just add a little fresh tin to the already tinned backsides, stir it a bit so it blends with the old tin, then use copper wick to suck it up. This way works much better then without adding a bit of your own tin, same with the power cap)

 Doing it yourself would be more rewarding 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 but then the risk is also yours ofcourse, and since you plan to do the full set of mods I can imagine your concern.

 And yeah nonpolar caps is something only Blackgate makes as far as I know, i think some other brands make bipolar ones though.. But Elna cerafine and Nichicons are excellent. The nonpolar blackgates are a bit of a class on their own but for that you pay a lot extra (just compare the nonpolars to the regular blackgates in my pricelist :S The caps you mentioned are excellent aswell.


----------



## djbigbear

@seba
 the nichicon 22uF 50V is the same caps my friend uses(2nd and 3rd pic)
 so i think it will fit just fine

 @phalanger
 thx for your advice, but i really don't have the guts to do it myself
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and beside i don't have the proper tools.

 by next monday, the modification will be done, just wish me luck ok bro
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 really looking forward to enjoy my modded x-fi


----------



## zbomb56

I ended up sending a modded x-fi to someone, but i believe the shipping may have pushed up on the legs to the cap and loosened the solder/leg connection so the cap legs aren't completely secure to the pcb of the sound card. The person pointed out that he could push on the legs to the cap and they kind of moved in and out rather than being secure.

 The person that bought the card noticed a lot of rebooting during start up, sometimes right from the beginning, and sometimes a few min into windows.

 Would the cap legs not being secure to the pcb cause those problems? and if the cap were to be resoldered back into place, are chances likely that the card will come out alright without problems?

 I asked the person to try to get a hold of a soldering gun and heat up the solder that is there to redo the connection, or maybe get a friend or someone with a soldering gun to help out, so I am just waiting for them to reply now to see if they were able to get the cap legs resoldered.

 Card was sturdy and perfect before I shipped it out, checked all outputs for sound also since 4 opamps were replaced, even shorted the coupling caps, and it also has the FK series blackgate 1000uf 16v cap rather than the standard series. I personally used it for 2 weeks and it was awesome, i really enjoyed it. I even bought another one for myself again after shipping that one out.

 just thought i would see what you guys thought about the situation and if you had any pointers.

 I am hoping the person has access to a soldering gun or at least has a friend that can help. I am really surprised that the cap legs became unsecured.


----------



## eriksson

Just had to do the opamp upgrade too even though I only have some pretty simple Boston Acoustics speakers hooked up to the analog output of my X-Fi 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The "helping hands" was awesome while soldering the opamp. Also I'm in Sweden and there was no problem getting samples from National, shipped from Singapore, only took 3 days and cost about 20 dollars.

 Very noticeable upgrade in detail with the new opamp, loving it


----------



## phalanger

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *zbomb56* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I ended up sending a modded x-fi to someone, but i believe the shipping may have pushed up on the legs to the cap and loosened the solder/leg connection so the cap legs aren't completely secure to the pcb of the sound card. The person pointed out that he could push on the legs to the cap and they kind of moved in and out rather than being secure.

 The person that bought the card noticed a lot of rebooting during start up, sometimes right from the beginning, and sometimes a few min into windows.

 Would the cap legs not being secure to the pcb cause those problems? and if the cap were to be resoldered back into place, are chances likely that the card will come out alright without problems?_

 

Bummer. Yeah unsecured cap legs is enough to destabilize any system, especially if its a power capacitor. Sounds like it wasnt soldered on as properly as you thought and/or not packaged properly. Probably have him send it back unless he can fix it himself in a satisfactory way.


----------



## cotdt

my Hakko 936 can solder the legs with ease. with a cheap 15W, it will take some skill. unregulated irons will get hotter than regulated irons.


----------



## kirimaru

did someone compared the ad8066 and ad8599 i bass area?
 i have seen people saying that ad8066 has better was response,but i was looking on the spec. of ad8599 and i found that it has "80 nV p-p input noise, 0.1 Hz to 10 Hz" this is something extraordinary when it is in an active low pass crossover for subwoofers=extraordinarily nano volts.
 every time when i hear it i am even more impressed.


----------



## phalanger

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kirimaru* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_did someone compared the ad8066 and ad8599 i bass area?
 i have seen people saying that ad8066 has better was response,but i was looking on the spec. of ad8599 and i found that it has "80 nV p-p input noise, 0.1 Hz to 10 Hz" this is something extraordinary when it is in an active low pass crossover for subwoofers=extraordinarily nano volts.
 every time when i hear it i am even more impressed._

 

I have both opamps but havent compared them for subwoofer performance (would be tricky to compare i think), the ad8599 is indeed a very impressive opamp all around, but numbers don't say all too much. the 8066 is FET-based which may explain its perceived strong bass response. But i also think that 8599 would do great for subwoofer aswell.


----------



## zbomb56

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *phalanger* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Bummer. Yeah unsecured cap legs is enough to destabilize any system, especially if its a power capacitor. Sounds like it wasnt soldered on as properly as you thought and/or not packaged properly. Probably have him send it back unless he can fix it himself in a satisfactory way._

 

so the guy got back to me, and seems he has it fixed for the moment, he might need to add a bit of solder, but everything is still working great. He is happy with it but he isn't using that great of speakers (x-530) which to me didn't sound as good as my 2.1 altec ATP3's that I have.

 I have another card on its way to mod for myself, and I think there is another guy that wants one sent to him as well.

 I might just order several extra caps so i can mod about 5 cards worth and I don't have to worry about reaching the minimum $25 order that most places have when ordering.


----------



## Arc4173c7

Hiy bros. I have just registered to ask you for one BIG invocation.
 Im from Czech republic and I couldnt find a way how to ship those parts (in reasonable price).

 either Blackgate 2200uF 16V or Blackgate 1000uF nonpolar
 3xLM4562
 AD8066
 AD8599
 ERS paper!
 Maybe 4x to 12x Blackgate 22uF regular

 I wanted free samples of 1xAD8066,2xAD8599, but I gotta this from AD: "We're sorry but online sample orders can only be accepted from valid email addresses with domain urls that originate from a company..." Unfortunately I dont have any.
 The same for free samples at National semiconductor (I dont have any company).
 I have got very low budget (about 50$
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




), so that might be a problem.

 And Im asking you, if you would be so kind and send me those (ofc Ill pay it)? In the worst case one LM4562 and Blackgate 2200uF 16V (and 4xBlackgate 22uF regular) would be enough... Maybe it could be cheaper (coz only my friends gotta right tools), if some1 would mod my X-Fi, I would send it.

 Just help me to bring my ARS-225 and Genius 5000 alive! Anyway I found head-fi.org very interesting.
 Sorry for quite OT.


----------



## phalanger

You can still get opamps from AD without having a company, you just will be charged for them then and they wont be samples (but you can order by any amount). If your budget is 50$ then you probably will have to settle for cheaper caps then blackgates, let alone nonpolars. Getting it all together for 50$ will require some searching but I wouldn't expect total strangers to do all that work for you and send it as a ready-made kit without making profit on it.


----------



## ironeisnna

I bought a second x-fi xtreme music from e-bay (a new victim after the death of my previous one!). I did the mod. This time I used a very thin screwdriver and I pushed the legs of the old opamp one by one to cut them. 

 I can honestly say that the card now produces a very enjoyable sound. The harsh highs have gone. The bass is more extended and the soundstage is.. wider! All these sound cliché but that's the true... I use a 1000μuf nonpolar blackgate without any problems. My headphones are a pair of sennheiser 650 with a Stefan AudioArt equinox cable. Comparing the sound to the stello dac DA100 (with a stello amplifier HP100), to be honest, I prefer by far the sound of the stello. I just can't compare it to the one of the mod. The instruments feel "real" and the vocals are like having their own personality. I can’t express an opinion about the benchmark dac1, as I haven't heard it but from what I have read, it's sound is more precise rather than enjoyable. Maybe cotdt (like me) is a music lover and not a music analyst, and he prefers the mod rather than the benchmark dac. 

 Just for fun I used a regular cmoy on the output of the card, and yes... all the soundstage destroyed!!! The sound, was thin and "electric". It's far better to use the soundcard unamped, rather than using a cheap amp like cmoy. And think that my headphones are 300 ohms (not very easily driven), which means that headphones with lower impedance will probably have a better synergy with the unamped soundcard (not sure though).

 Thanks cotdt for your idea 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I owe you a beer


----------



## soloz2

What package are the tiny resisters to the left of the main op-amp? I accidentally knocked one off on a card yesterday and then dropped it... and the damn thing is so tiny I couldn't find it in the carpet. I believe it's a 35ohm value


----------



## sil0nt

I am interested in these mods for my X-Fi, but I don't have any way to get them done due to lack of workspace and lack of time. Is anyone modding these cards as a service? I have bulit in sound on the motherboard, so I could be without the card for a couple of weeks.


----------



## Seba

I have two cards and one is for sale. It has LM4562 for the front channels, 4x22 uF Elna Silmic II's and 1000 uF Elna Silmic II.


----------



## soloz2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sil0nt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am interested in these mods for my X-Fi, but I don't have any way to get them done due to lack of workspace and lack of time. Is anyone modding these cards as a service? I have bulit in sound on the motherboard, so I could be without the card for a couple of weeks._

 

Kamal has his for sale here
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=244514

 I modded his card for him, but he decided it just wasn't for him and is trying something else. You can pick that card up from him, or I could mod one for you.


----------



## phalanger

.


----------



## hdaboliv

Anyone have got a chance to compare the modded X-Fi to the EMU 0404USB in terms of sound quality?


----------



## ade1982

Can I ask if anyone knows a reasonably placed price where I can buy the LM4562MA-ND op-amps from in the UK ... Digi-Key costs as much in shipping as the actual goods!

 I need enough for all 7.1 channels, which I believe is 4?

 Cheers

 Ade

 edit: or any of the other op-amps that are recommended in this thread, that aren't too expensive!


----------



## phalanger

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ade1982* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Can I ask if anyone knows a reasonably placed price where I can buy the LM4562MA-ND op-amps from in the UK ... Digi-Key costs as much in shipping as the actual goods!

 I need enough for all 7.1 channels, which I believe is 4?

 edit: or any of the other op-amps that are recommended in this thread, that aren't too expensive!_

 

You could try to get samples from national semiconductor directly, or 8599 from analog devices which is an excellent alternative. AD also sells them in small amounts I think if you're not eligible for free samples.
 And yeah you'd need 4 opamps, 5 if you want to do the line in aswell.


----------



## theBigD

ok, i finally got the courage up to do this mod. i removed old op am. used a copper wick to remove solder and insteat of eight pads to solder to i only have 7. the bottom right hand corner pad is missing. i tried to solder new op amp on anyway but it isnt working right. no left channel. of course this is my first foray into soldering. did i burn off the pad on board? is there anyway to fix this? boy do i feel stupid right now.


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *theBigD* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ok, i finally got the courage up to do this mod. i removed old op am. used a copper wick to remove solder and insteat of eight pads to solder to i only have 7. the bottom right hand corner pad is missing. i tried to solder new op amp on anyway but it isnt working right. no left channel. of course this is my first foray into soldering. did i burn off the pad on board? is there anyway to fix this? boy do i feel stupid right now._

 

you can fix it easily, just find out where the missing pad is supposed to connect to. it's probably one of those tiny SMD parts nearby.


----------



## theBigD

what do you do, run a solder bridge to that part?


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *theBigD* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_what do you do, run a solder bridge to that part?_

 

yes, or a little wire


----------



## ade1982

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *phalanger* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You could try to get samples from national semiconductor directly, or 8599 from analog devices which is an excellent alternative. AD also sells them in small amounts I think if you're not eligible for free samples.
 And yeah you'd need 4 opamps, 5 if you want to do the line in aswell._

 

Cheers mate. That's very much appreciated.

 I got to this page, and then I am stumped. I am looking for the MA SOIC Narrow?

http://www.national.com/pf/LM/LM4562.html#Availability

 What does the 24-hour sample mean? That they will burn out after 24 hours?? And if the lead time is 6 weeks, does that mean it will take 6+ weeks to get to me? I would be comfortable buying them if it's that sort of time-frame, and it doesn't cost me £40 / $80!!

 Cheers guys.


----------



## ROBSCIX

@4hrs, means you an oder them 24hrs a day. 6weeks lead time usually refers to any type of large order I would think.


----------



## phalanger

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ade1982* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Cheers mate. That's very much appreciated.

 I got to this page, and then I am stumped. I am looking for the MA SOIC Narrow?

http://www.national.com/pf/LM/LM4562.html#Availability

 What does the 24-hour sample mean? That they will burn out after 24 hours?? And if the lead time is 6 weeks, does that mean it will take 6+ weeks to get to me? I would be comfortable buying them if it's that sort of time-frame, and it doesn't cost me £40 / $80!!

 Cheers guys._

 

Yes the SOIC narrow is the one you want. 24h just means they send it within 24h or something along those lines. The opamps are not self destructive  
 And no it doesnt take 6 weeks, it should arrive worldwide within a week from ordering. The 6 weeks applies for large orders. You want sample-orders, the blue button.


----------



## phalanger

Re: the guy who found 7 pins instead of 8. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 hate so say we told you so but, sidecutters :S but one missing connector isn't too bad, the easiest way to trace it is with an XFi that doesnt miss the connector, unless you can somehow still touch the contact with a multimeter. I located the one for MrDerrick that way, if you point out your missing pad on the macropic that was posted earlier, someone can easily check it for you which of the little SMDs it should go. I think it's someone elses turn this time though


----------



## theBigD

anybody know where bottom right hand leg of 4562 in first picture on ops post is supposed to be wired to? im missing the pad for that leg. i floated a bit more solder in to try to make contact now i get really tiny sound from both channels instead of just one. not really sure what to do next. i shorted the four caps from illustration. and replaced op-amp. havent changed cap to blackgate yet. just hoping for some guidance i guess. i am a complete newb this is my first soldering project. thanx for your help. on the bright side i do seem to be getting the hang of soldering and especially desoldering.


----------



## soloz2

take off the op-amp and set your DMM for continuity test and see where that lead is supposed to connect to. It'll be one of the nearby components


----------



## theBigD

sorry, what is dmm?


----------



## soloz2

digital multi-meter


----------



## theBigD

thanx soloz. is it very hard to learn how to use dmm? i will probably have to get one of these sometime to try to fix this i guess.


----------



## soloz2

no, they're pretty easy. You can find a cheap one at Sears or harbor freight. It won't be able to do everything, but a basic one will get you started


----------



## theBigD

do i absolutely have to take opamp off to test? it was such a pain to orient that thing correctly i am hoping i could just test under the pin on opamp.


----------



## flashnolan

Just as a reference a link to partsconnexion.com selling the cap: Here

Here I found an interesting explanation as to why the sound changes (possibly to the worse) when additional shielding:

 "However, in some analog circuits, the presence of EMI/RFI was tuned into the frequency response of the device. ers can effect of the amplitude of the high frequency and/or the low frequency extremes resulting in a less than desirable balance."


----------



## ade1982

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *phalanger* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ The opamps are not self destructive  _

 

LoL! 

 I swear I was drinking when I wrote that! (I really was!)

 Thanks for the replies


----------



## soloz2

For those who have modded their X-Fi Elite Pro cards:

 I got this picture off avs forums and am curious if anyone can verify it.






 Also, the power caps by the output should theoretically be upgraded as well.

 What is everyones thought on this?


----------



## gates_2

I thought the caps near the port were for the breakout box?

 Hmm

 I believe the other caps near the dacs are correct...Although I haven't modded past the main power cap- got lazy!

 What are the reported results with say, a blackgate recap of those couple of caps near the dac?


----------



## GameBlaster

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *soloz2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_For those who have modded their X-Fi Elite Pro cards:

 I got this picture off avs forums and am curious if anyone can verify it.






 Also, the power caps by the output should theoretically be upgraded as well.

 What is everyones thought on this?_

 

I did that when I shorted the four caps and I got No Sound , I resolder the four shorted caps back to the card and the sound restored , so the picture in the link above is not applicable so I decide to not short any caps I' wont do any mod at after installing blackgate.


----------



## soloz2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GameBlaster* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I did that when I shorted the four caps and I got No Sound , I resolder the four shorted caps back to the card and the sound restored , so the picture in the link above is not applicable so I decide to not short any caps I' wont do any mod at after installing blackgate._

 

So the circled caps are not the standard coupling caps? alright.

 Anyone else mod their Elite Pro?


----------



## phalanger

I just wanted to drop a line on the very, very pleasing results I have gotten from the AD8599 at line-in position. I feed turntable and tube-preamped guitars and microphones into it and the results by far surpass what I could get out of it before I replaced the line-in opamp. Very highly recommended for those plugging in any analog audio sources. Even though I expected an improvement I did not expect it to sound this good, especially since I did not replace any capacitors around it (still not sure which does what).

 I have not tried the LM4562 or any other opamp in this position besides the one that it came with and the AD5899. So those may or may not yield similarly good results.


----------



## theBigD

well, it looks like my xfi is toast. had a friend come by who builds speakers to help be try to fix card and it seems too far gone. what is the cheapest xfi card that can be modified with good results. mine was the xfi music which is no longer in production. i saw some on ebay for $65 though. what are some other options? this time ill get my friend to do the soldering instead of trying to learn on the fly.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Wait and buy a prelude and you won't need to do the mods and you get more features.
 Then again you can mod the Prelude! I like modding card aswell making them better then they were with a little bit of time -It's great.


----------



## phalanger

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *theBigD* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_well, it looks like my xfi is toast. had a friend come by who builds speakers to help be try to fix card and it seems too far gone. what is the cheapest xfi card that can be modified with good results. mine was the xfi music which is no longer in production. i saw some on ebay for $65 though. what are some other options? this time ill get my friend to do the soldering instead of trying to learn on the fly._

 

Why is it toast? Is there more damage then just one missing connector? If it's just that it would be a shame to toss it aside as its easily fixed. It may look bad but those legs are connected straight to one of those tiny SMD's (resistors), you just have to find which one and there arent so many options.. just see which connects. Surely someone here with an xfi and a multimeter is willing to do the measure for you.
 Else if you still want a new xfi then 65$ isnt a bad deal i suppose. the other xfi's that are full-height all are more expensive then the x-music, so either grab it or wait for a better alternative. Or fix your X-fi which still doesnt look like toast to me.


----------



## PPkiller

phalanger... what's the method u used now to desolder the opamp? still side cuting?


----------



## phalanger

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PPkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_phalanger... what's the method u used now to desolder the opamp? still side cuting?_

 

yeah for all 5 opamps i used the precision sidecutter and cut the legs off one by one right near the PCB. you could even get away with not cleaning up the pads this way cause very little remains, but i recommend you still make them nice and shiny with solderwick before installing the new opamp. Despite some unfortunate modders problems, these connectors dont just rub off like that. Just dont take too long doing it, do it gentle and always with a well-heated iron. And don't try to pull on non-properly cut legs ofcourse, some will require a few bites to snap.


----------



## Chu

I just got my X-Mod back after sending it out to Soloz to mod. Here are my impressions after half an hour. X-Mod -> META42 -> HD600 is the chain.

 First off, there definitely is a difference. The track at the top of my playlist was "Thou Shalt Kill," and my very first impression was "is there something wrong with my card?" There was a _ton_ of background noise coming through the headphones, noise that certainly wasn't so imposing before the mod or with the onboard sound I've been listening to.

 Not the card's fault though. Next track I put up was "My Name is Mud" since there is so much silence in the song. No noise where there wasn't supposed to be. So the X-Mod certainly is more revealing.

 Now, the soundstage. It's been a month since I've heard my X-Fi, but I am fairly confident in saying that the soundstange has been narrowed. From my original X-Fi to onboard sound I noticed almost no change, but there does seem to be a constriction going from onboard sound to the X-Mod.

 Now, the sound itself. First, the low bar. The X-Mod seems better then Onboard Sound (ASUS A8N-SLI Priemium, nForce 4 SLI) in almost every way. I don't really feel a need to qualify that further 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Compared to the original X-Fi though? Well, it's been a month, and I am very very hesitant to make comparisons considering the time that has elapsed. I do feel however that there is a bit more detail now. There are details in the guitars of "Rusty Cage" that I do not remember, however I would not say that there is necessarily more transparency. Even though I feel I can hear more details, the separation between instruments on pretty much every track I have played, at best, is the same as before. My gut feeling is that it is in fact somewhat worse. I feel that the soundstage has been changed to emphasize the mids and base more, which could explain this; or that there is much more detail in the X-Mod in these regions and thus they are more prominent, which generally works against transparency. Possibly both. Again almost impossible to say, it's been too long.

 So, there is my first half-hour review. Maybe something more in depth after I play around with EQ and explore some more music outside of Rock with them. I will however say that with the altered soundstage my gut feeling is that the X-Mod will pair _much_ better with my Grado's, and I can't wait to try them. I just wanted to give a good listen in my Senns first since they are my primary computer headphones.

 Now, is it worth it? If you are doing it yourself, I would say yes. If you are buying a new sound card, I would again say yes. Paying to have it done for you? Jury is still out, but a hesitant yes. Will post more after I give them a better listen


----------



## theBigD

yea, we nocked around one of those resisters with a soldering iron. so i think that may be the problem now. i actually get sound out of both channels but the left channel is very constricted and the volume on the left channel is much lower. if i adjust the balance then the right side become very congested. just doesn't sound quite right. oh and when we removed the opamp and cleaned things up on the board another trace came off, the trace on this board is very fragile. if i had a little more experience i probably would try to save this board but with so little i am probably gonna have to get another xfi music. my friend is pretty confident with the next board he'll be able to mod it without a hitch. i hope this is worth it.


----------



## ]|[ GorE

Ahh,yes...now the disaster stories are coming in..I was wondering they would.the next time,try practicing on dead cards from your local pc hardware store.
 And the variety of capacitor mods you guys keep coming up with is ridiculous...oh,i forgot that head-fiers are better than the multiple Electronic degrees holders at Creative.


----------



## phalanger

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *]|[ GorE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ahh,yes...now the disaster stories are coming in..I was wondering they would.the next time,try practicing on dead cards from your local pc hardware store.
 And the variety of capacitor mods you guys keep coming up with is ridiculous...oh,i forgot that head-fiers are better than the multiple Electronic degrees holders at Creative._

 

It would be both more enjoyable and more useful if you would add something else besides your blobs of criticism about this mod (which you did not actually perform i think) and the people who have done it. 
 For instance it would be nice if you would've actually told something usable about 'the capacitor creative left out' as others have also asked you. But to be honest I think you have no clue about it either.

 So I kinda wonder why you keep dropping in with nothing but negative comments and without adding anything useful, about a topic which you apparantly don't have much to really say about at all.


----------



## theBigD

yes gore does seem to be the doom and gloom guy, doesn't he? it does seem like most people are satisfied with the results of this mod, and the majority of experiences doing it are positive. i definently would caution someone with little experience about doing this though because of the tiny parts and small space to deal with on this card. also it seems the trace on this card is pretty fragile.


----------



## ]|[ GorE

Oh yes,i have done the capacitor mods and the opamp ones on my Audigy SE which has a similar analog output stage as that of the X-Fi.
 It's just that the capacitor values and the kind of caps you guys are using are unnecessary;I'm sure no one in this thread has looked through the datasheets of the Voltage Regulators,the opamps and the DAC,coz if you had,you wouldn't be using these inane caps with their inane capacitance.

 PS : I think those Onkyo cards with their loadful of caps are baloney too;products made to satisfy the gullible and undiscerning .


----------



## ]|[ GorE

And yeah,those caps Creative left out are mentioned in the DAC datasheet.


----------



## ]|[ GorE

do your research,i ain't handing out free food.


----------



## twc5964

I have not attacked the op amps but I did change out the one 100uf 16 volt cap(largest cap on this card) on my old Audigy 4.I used a Rubycon 470uf 50 volt za/zl and bypassed it with a poly cap. This really surprised me !

 Blacker background and slightly better dynamics...especially on poor recordings.Also,used some really good contact cleaner....a definite improvement already. Thanks for this thread.My only regret is not being able to swap out the other caps. I have plenty but need a new soldering iron with a sharp tip.

 Now I want the Extreme music,new iron,and opamps !


----------



## phalanger

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *]|[ GorE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_do your research,i ain't handing out free food._

 

Please just **** in that case then and keep your negative attitude to yourself. You just proved again you have absolutely nothing useful to add here, nobody is waiting for your arrogant you-all-suck posts, especially since they contain NO useful information. Also stop trying to cap this thread.


----------



## holland

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *]|[ GorE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_do your research,i ain't handing out free food._

 

...

 Anyhow. I *think* this is the DAC from some specs I saw on the web, but I don't know as I don't have the board. Any goon can post "specs" on a web page, so take it with a grain of salt.

CS4382_F1 datasheet

 As far as the missing cap, I don't know as I don't know what's there to begin with. I'd have to get my hands on a board. Check out page 12, 13, 24 and 27 of the datasheet though.


----------



## turtletrax

Hey guys. Been reading this thread for a couple days now and have done many of the mods already. I have ordered samples from National but you are only allowed 3 so I am short two. Anybody have a couple I can buy from you??

 I have desldered the original opamps and it went really smooth. I used to mod xboxs so that is fairly easy soldering in comparison. 

 Well if anyone has a couple to spare drop me a PM and I will gladly buy them


----------



## phalanger

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *turtletrax* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey guys. Been reading this thread for a couple days now and have done many of the mods already. I have ordered samples from National but you are only allowed 3 so I am short two. Anybody have a couple I can buy from you??

 I have desldered the original opamps and it went really smooth. I used to mod xboxs so that is fairly easy soldering in comparison. 

 Well if anyone has a couple to spare drop me a PM and I will gladly buy them 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

You can just place another sample order at NS next week. It's a 3-per-week maximum.


----------



## turtletrax

Thanks phalanger. Are you on XS too? I remember your name for some reason 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





 Laters

 Turtle


----------



## mobayrasta

Well it has been a few months since my card was modded and I have had absolutely no problems. I have been comparing it to lots of external DAC's and have not found any commercial product under 600 dollars that sounds as good as my card. I know this is totally subjective but I am SO happy with my modded card.


----------



## LeonvB

Quote:


 i forgot that head-fiers are better than the multiple Electronic degrees holders at Creative. 
 

Of course. And it's easy too: our budgets are bigger. Plus we don't need to use the cheapest contractor for a part.

 P.S. You might not hand out free food, but you sure made me laugh...


----------



## twc5964

I went ahead and changed out 4 more caps on my Audigy 4.The next largest in size aside from the 100uf is four 47uf(used Rubycon za/zl again since I have quite a few of them) located all around the main processor chip.Also,touched up the solder joints on this old card.Quite an improvement I might add.Very pleased with the results as this simple swapping out parts yielded pleasant results.I can say....it's a real pain changing out these caps as they are seated tightly in the board with very little room .Had to use a steady hand but it was worth the effort.


----------



## turtletrax

Wow, I got my three samples from National in 4 business days and just got three of five put in and holy crap does it ever sound better. I am amazed, and worth multiple times what the mod costs.

 Awesome. I cant wait to get the other two and finnish the mod


----------



## PPkiller

i'm gonna change my opamp from lm4562 to ad8599.. and instead of bypassing the cap i intend to purchase 4x bgNX HI-Q 22uf 6.3V and solder those... any one able to help me to confirm whether 22uf and 6.3v is sufficient?


----------



## phalanger

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PPkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i'm gonna change my opamp from lm4562 to ad8599.. and instead of bypassing the cap i intend to purchase 4x bgNX HI-Q 22uf 6.3V and solder those... any one able to help me to confirm whether 22uf and 6.3v is sufficient?_

 

In my experience it works just fine. Do your own voltage measurements to be sure, but it shouldnt get over 5v


----------



## PPkiller

wow.. ad8599... love at first sight..


----------



## kirimaru

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PPkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_wow.. ad8599... love at first sight.._

 

i am glad to hear that,just leave it for burning-in for a week and you will be very pleased with sound.


----------



## kirimaru

there is a very easy way to accelerate the burning-in for blackgate.
 you just have to turn-off the pc, unplug it and turn it on and off for while.do it as many time as you can.
 i was doing it this trick and i was amazed with results,the sound become more and more clearer,open and detailed.
 how its works?acording to blackagte:it remove the previus residual electricity remaing in the cap and make the internal components react faster.


----------



## hardnrg

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *]|[ GorE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_do your research,i ain't handing out free food._

 

I don't want any of your food... how about you get an x-fi and add these "missing capacitors" that only you know about?

 maybe you can write a song about it too


----------



## theBigD

ok, i got my reconditioned xfi music card from creative as a refurb off of ebay. cost me around 75$ with shipping. i decided to short out caps first this time and replace the cap with blackgate and then have my friend come over and let him replace opamp because he has a steadier hand and more experience than i do, also if you do this with an extra hand you can hold that tiny little op amp while the other person solders. 

 you know i thought doing the cap replacement was going to be the hardest part of this mod because so many people had problems doing it. but for me it was the easiest. just apply heat to the wire and pry the cap out one side at a time. wick out the extra solder and push the new cap in. solder and its done. 

 so many posts indicate replacing opamp is a breeze. but i found it to be very nerve racking. op amp is so tiny and board tracing is quite fragile. 

 funny thing about my new refurb, is that it is an older version than the board i fried. there is no heatsink over xfi chip. i took a double take on it when i looked at both cards side by side. there also appear to be a couple of different chips onboard as well but everything else is the same.

 anyway i cant wait to replace opamp. having a hard time noticing much diff. with blackgate or shorted caps. maybe a little wider soundstage. maybe a little tighter bass. will the polarized blackgates take a little while to burn in as well?


----------



## ]|[ GorE

caps burn in ?


----------



## cotdt

the cap mod doesn't make that big of a difference, most of the difference is the opamp mod. polar caps are not supposed to change with burn-in, but bipolar caps do change with burn-in. that's according to my electronics book.


----------



## PPkiller

hmm.. but in reality polar cap do benefit from burn-in rite?


----------



## Pm@c

I havent visited this thread in a while, did someone come to the conclusion that ad8599 is better than the LM4562, if so I might have to mod it again..


----------



## Soymilk

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cotdt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_the cap mod doesn't make that big of a difference, most of the difference is the opamp mod. polar caps are not supposed to change with burn-in, but bipolar caps do change with burn-in. that's according to my electronics book._

 

i think the cap mod was mostly for reliability / longevity than for a change in sound, although it does still change it a little iirc.


----------



## Seba

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kirimaru* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_there is a very easy way to accelerate the burning-in for blackgate.
 you just have to turn-off the pc, unplug it and turn it on and off for while.do it as many time as you can.
 i was doing it this trick and i was amazed with results,the sound become more and more clearer,open and detailed.
 how its works?acording to blackagte:it remove the previus residual electricity remaing in the cap and make the internal components react faster._

 

And doing this it is also very easy to mess up or damage your hard drives.


----------



## qwerty009

At output stage (after opamp) there are 2 transistors (caps and resistors too but they are for filtering) on signal path. Schematic is attached to this thread.
 Anyway i was thinking how would card sound without those transistors? When i was checking the card i noticed that after 33ohm resistor the wire goes directly to this "socket" near "aux in". so basically it can be tried without soldering. Can anyone try it and share the results? I would do it myself but i had a little accident with my leg here and i cant move for some time.


----------



## kirimaru

guys if you dont hear any sonic diference with the cap mod,it couldbe that your 
 headphones,audio systems arent good enough,or the problem is your "ears".
 i notice nice improvement in the sound,the sound warmth,cristal clear and detailed,deep bass.there are more things that i cant say with words.


----------



## theBigD

ive had a little more time with just shorting caps and blackgate replacement. havent done the op-amp change yet. i have really noticed more seperation and clarity in the soundfield. with my akg 701s, after mod many more of the "what was that sound?" further out of the soundstage experiences. also i am running xfi out to govibe 5 with 8610/20 and before xfi mod if i cranked volume up 100% there was distortion in low bass response so i left vol at 90%percent and it cleared up. now after mod running at 100%, no distortion. i cant wait to change op amp. probably get around to that in next couple of days.


----------



## phalanger

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Seba* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_And doing this it is also very easy to mess up or damage your hard drives._

 

Yeah seriously, switching the device off and on a few hundred times in a row may not be much of a problem in a cd player or something along those lines but you really don't want to do that with your computer.


----------



## phalanger

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pm@c* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I havent visited this thread in a while, did someone come to the conclusion that ad8599 is better than the LM4562, if so I might have to mod it again.._

 

Some have said to prefer the AD8599 over LM4562 yeah. I have them both installed (see pic in my sig) and can use both as stereo out. I like them both, if it's worth removing the 4562 i don't know, theyre quite different from eachother but both are excellent. 8599 has a more transparant feel to it.


----------



## ROBSCIX

This is the reason I suggested people install sockets. This way they can use whatever the want. Opamps are extremely subjective. Some say they can hear no difference at all. I personally can and like trying out different ones to get a sound I like. I am using the X-Meridian though so I have sockets.
 Each time you remove and install another you are further damaging the board and the traces. I really suggest figuring out a way to install Dip sockets.


----------



## qwerty009

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is the reason I suggested people install sockets. This way they can use whatever the want. Opamps are extremely subjective. Some say they can hear no difference at all. I personally can and like trying out different ones to get a sound I like. I am using the X-Meridian though so I have sockets.
 Each time you remove and install another you are further damaging the board and the traces. I really suggest figuring out a way to install Dip sockets._

 

Unfortunately there is no way to install those sockets. Even if you somehow manage to solder that dip socket in place it simply wouldn't stay there as strong as it should. And when you would attempt to change op amp you would simply break it.


----------



## Seba

How about making a small board with a dip-socket and then 8 wires from the board to the traces of the soundcard?


----------



## turtletrax

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Seba* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How about making a small board with a dip-socket and then 8 wires from the board to the traces of the soundcard?_

 


 Then you risk damage to the traces


----------



## PPkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kirimaru* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_guys if you dont hear any sonic diference with the cap mod,it couldbe that your 
 headphones,audio systems arent good enough,or the problem is your "ears".
 i notice nice improvement in the sound,the sound warmth,cristal clear and detailed,deep bass.there are more things that i cant say with words._

 

yes i did.. previously i was useing cap bypass... but recently i removed the bypass and changed the 4 caps to blackgate nx high q... maybe it is due to lack of burn in(still under 20hrs as i dun have time to keep it running)... i missed the sound bypass gave me.. clearer.. micro details are damn good.. 

 ad8599 do sound better then lm4562(at least when unamp)


----------



## kirimaru

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PPkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_yes i did.. previously i was useing cap bypass... but recently i removed the bypass and changed the 4 caps to blackgate nx high q... maybe it is due to lack of burn in(still under 20hrs as i dun have time to keep it running)... i missed the sound bypass gave me.. clearer.. micro details are damn good.. 

 ad8599 do sound better then lm4562(at least when unamp)_

 

i am also using bg nx hiq caps,it will sound a bit muddy and less detailed in begining,but after 200hrs of burning-in you will hear the sound with more body,better detailed instruments separation,resolution and more bass in lower frequencies
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 .


----------



## kamal007

anyone compared the modded xfi to the X-Meridian?


----------



## qwerty009

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kamal007* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_anyone compared the modded xfi to the X-Meridian?_

 

I like x-meridian little better.


----------



## theBigD

alright, finally finished this mod tonight. changed out the input and headphone opamp for lm4562. wow! i really like how much more engaging the soundfield is. haven't had a chance to fully evaluate yet but the bass is much cleaner and more defined and the midrange has greater seperation and a real sense of detail. screwed up the first card learning to do this. but i think it was worth it. i learned a bit about soldering and electronics. and now i have a freakin awesome sounding soundcard. thanks codt and all who have participated in this thread!


----------



## djbigbear

ahhh.... i'm having a hard time looking for ad8599..... it's out of stock @ analogdevices.

 i think i just have to be satisfied with LM4562MA


----------



## kamal007

just wondering, will this mod be kinda useless if we use an external headphone amplifier?


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kamal007* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_just wondering, will this mod be kinda useless if we use an external headphone amplifier?_

 

no, this mod is a mod for the DAC, while the amp comes after the DAC. in fact, i would recommend an external amp for anything beyond IEMs. and even IEMs can benefit from amping.


----------



## ROBSCIX

COTDT, I seen a guy on another forum using a Passive out on a X-Meridian and thought it would work for the X-fi aswell. I don't know if you know what it is or not so I will explain. A Passive output taps the circuit after the DAC and before the Opamp so it bypasses the opamps and caps actually th whole output section. There is a small circuit that needs to be built but I guess it gives great results if you are into trying it out. I think he only taps the front L & R for headphones or stereo output. 5.1 would need a bit more work.


----------



## djbigbear

just wondering....
 after all this mod....
 which mp3 player did u guys use to play your mp3s?

 i use my fully customized foobar.


----------



## PPkiller

flac + asio on foobar


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_COTDT, I seen a guy on another forum using a Passive out on a X-Meridian and thought it would work for the X-fi aswell. I don't know if you know what it is or not so I will explain. A Passive output taps the circuit after the DAC and before the Opamp so it bypasses the opamps and caps actually th whole output section. There is a small circuit that needs to be built but I guess it gives great results if you are into trying it out. I think he only taps the front L & R for headphones or stereo output. 5.1 would need a bit more work._

 

you mean just a low-pass filter? i've tried that with my DAC and couldn't get enough volume out of it...


----------



## ]|[ GorE

Yeah,the opamps up the voltage of the audio signal to somewhere near the standard,2 Vrms.


----------



## ROBSCIX

@COTDT, The mod is called a passive out. It uses a small coupling circuit to tap into the analog signal PRIOR to the opamp. Theory being the output section does more to hurt the signal the enhance it. The guy did it with a Blue gears 8788 card but the idea is generic so it could be done to any sound card. The owner states a passive output sounds better then any opamps. I am only mentioning it to you I have not tried it and I am not even sure I am a advocate of the mod or not. My education tends to instill some reservations about this modification...


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_@COTDT, The mod is called a passive out. It uses a small coupling circuit to tap into the analog signal PRIOR to the opamp. Theory being the output section does more to hurt the signal the enhance it. The guy did it with a Blue gears 8788 card but the idea is generic so it could be done to any sound card. The owner states a passive output sounds better then any opamps. I am only mentioning it to you I have not tried it and I am not even sure I am a advocate of the mod or not. My education tends to instill some reservations about this modification..._

 

the way i understand it, a passive out uses passive components to filter the output of the DAC chip and bypasses all the opamps. is this what he did? with a high enough input impedance on the amp, it should work and is worth trying out.


----------



## MasZakrY

ATTENTION to anyone who is thinking of doing the L4562 mod: The IC is way smaller then you would think. I was expecting 555 timer size (not MDIP obviously) but holy *#&$#. When I got it in the mail I almost crapped my pants thinking of soldering this baby in. After the dust had settled I was able to install it with no problems (braid + silver solder + micro snips + micro tweezers + 45w iron /w micro tip). Keep in mind if you aren't 100% confident in your skills, please do not attempt.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cotdt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_the way i understand it, a passive out uses passive components to filter the output of the DAC chip and bypasses all the opamps. is this what he did? with a high enough input impedance on the amp, it should work and is worth trying out._

 

That is what he did. Here is a link to the thread where it is discussed. There is a embedded link to pics aswell as a small circuit design. The circuit is just a decoupling circuit bu the look of it a few resistors and some caps.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=867750

 You think the output of this circuit would give better sound then a output section on a card using opamps such as LM4562's?


----------



## Seba

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MasZakrY* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ATTENTION to anyone who is thinking of doing the L4562 mod: The IC is way smaller then you would think. I was expecting 555 timer size (not MDIP obviously) but holy *#&$#. When I got it in the mail I almost crapped my pants thinking of soldering this baby in. After the dust had settled I was able to install it with no problems (braid + silver solder + snips + tweezers + 45w iron). Keep in mind if you aren't 100% confident in your skills, please do not attempt. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			








_

 

Yes it is small in the beginning, but when you start to work with it and concentrate size isn't problem anymore. I highly recommend pen-type tip for the soldering iron. Much easier to work with SOIC than chisel-type tip. You can clean up the gaps by running the pen-tip between the legs.


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You think the output of this circuit would give better sound then a output section on a card using opamps such as LM4562's?_

 

Yes I'm sure it would sound better because I've tried it with various external DACs (but never with any sound cards), but it would be considered a more advanced mod. Thanks for bringing up this idea, I should try it with my sound cards.


----------



## fierce_freak

I've decided to start gaming again, so I just bought an XtremeMusic (should be here next week). I'm going to be using an external DAC, though, so I'm more interested in potential mods to improve the digital out section. I've read the whole thread and saw some of the earlier posts regarding general ideas to improve it, but I was wondering if there was anyone else that was interested in it, too, and wanted to help out. Once I get the card, I'll be able to look it over and see what might be able to be done.


----------



## Kizza

Man if only someone could release a card like this commercially


----------



## Apocalypsee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Kizza* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Man if only someone could release a card like this commercially_

 

Wait For Auzentech X-Fi Prelude then....


----------



## ROBSCIX

The X-Meridian is already out. I use LM4562's on mine...


----------



## fierce_freak

Anyone have any very high res shots of the card in it's entirety (front and back)? I could just wait for mine to get here, but I want to start taking a look at the digital section as soon as I can (yes, I'm impatient ;D)


----------



## gamer539

Hey Cotdt,

 Do you still use your Hotrodded X-fi or your Zapfiltered Zhaolu in your setup or both? How do they compare to each other in sound, and which do you prefer?

 I was looking at the National Semiconductor's website, http://www.national.com/pf/LM/LM4562.html , and I was wondering which is the Opamp chip that is used in this mod.


----------



## rbui

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gamer539* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey Cotdt,

 Do you still use your Hotrodded X-fi or your Zapfiltered Zhaolu in your setup or both? How do they compare to each other in sound, and which do you prefer?

 I was looking at the National Semiconductor's website, http://www.national.com/pf/LM/LM4562.html , and I was wondering which is the Opamp chip that is used in this mod._

 

you want part number LM4562MA, the SOIC NARROW type.


----------



## seeker010

I have a couple of questions

 anyone know how many opamps need to be replaced in the breakout box?
 and would OPA2107AU work just as well?


----------



## Dagnarus

Is this mod possible with an extreme gamer model since it has the low profile construction? 

 I know it's on the 'not recommended' list but alas, I have one anyways.

 sorry if this has been said already I can't go through 30 pages to find out!


----------



## jeuda

Anyone has seen this before?






 Except mine has GE instead of NHG on it. I can't seems to find any info for this cap.

 It is a [M] Japan GE 105deg C 1000uf 6.3v

 Thinking of using this to replace the 220uf 16v cap.


----------



## hardnrg

(M) stands for Matsu****a, brands include Technics and *Panasonic* - i.e. one of the best capacitor brands, up there with Nichicon and Rubycon

 GE however, sounds like it might be one of the more "general purpose" series, rather than audio-grade caps


----------



## soloz2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Dagnarus* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is this mod possible with an extreme gamer model since it has the low profile construction? 

 I know it's on the 'not recommended' list but alas, I have one anyways.

 sorry if this has been said already I can't go through 30 pages to find out!_

 

no, the op-amps are not standard SOIC so you cannot swap op-amps. you can do the rest of the mods if you want though


----------



## Dagnarus

word.

 Is it worth it to do the other mods then? Or is the main improvement from the op amps.


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Dagnarus* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_word.

 Is it worth it to do the other mods then? Or is the main improvement from the op amps._

 

the main improvement is from the opamps. but if you're creative, you can still find a way to change the opamps. it just won't be as easy as the mod for the mainstream x-fi cards.


----------



## jeuda

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hardnrg* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_(M) stands for Matsu****a, brands include Technics and *Panasonic* - i.e. one of the best capacitor brands, up there with Nichicon and Rubycon

 GE however, sounds like it might be one of the more "general purpose" series, rather than audio-grade caps_

 

But i can't seems to find any info on GE


----------



## panda67

Just read the whole post, dont know if i want to do this or just buy a X-fi Prelude. Gotta due more research on that.


----------



## dytln_02

Try change Capacitor at ATX PSU. with better Caps..RubyconZL, Panasonic FC Or blackgate......It will improve sound............ 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I have try it...using rubycon ZL and Panasonic FC caps....but not all caps...because I don't have all value...

 After modification this what i get ....Better separasi at high, mids and better bass....

 Before mod...

http://www.digitaluploader.com/1/04e...a7492b3225.jpg

 Remove Caps dan Replacement caps

http://www.digitaluploader.com/1/b1c...22113edac7.jpg

 After mod..

http://www.digitaluploader.com/1/d99...c941506b6b.jpg


----------



## cadobhuk

I'm not interested in this right now,but in the future I plan on getting the Elite Pro for my new pc and taking its analog outs to a speaker amp..Problem is,I have no soldering iron nor any expirience with it,are there people who would mod it for me?


----------



## jeuda

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dytln_02* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Try change Capacitor at ATX PSU. with better Caps..RubyconZL, Panasonic FC Or blackgate......It will improve sound............ 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I have try it...using rubycon ZL and Panasonic FC caps....but not all caps...because I don't have all value...

 After modification this what i get ....Better separasi at high, mids and better bass....

 Before mod...

http://www.digitaluploader.com/1/04e...a7492b3225.jpg

 Remove Caps dan Replacement caps

http://www.digitaluploader.com/1/b1c...22113edac7.jpg

 After mod..

http://www.digitaluploader.com/1/d99...c941506b6b.jpg_

 


 U must be kidding right?


----------



## dytln_02

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jeuda* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_U must be kidding right?_

 

May be it's crazzy .... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 using different psu give different sonic sound, also using different caps give different sonic sound.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Why people change caps on x-fi with blackgate if it will give the same sound....


----------



## djbigbear

eh ada mas hidayat
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 guys, i'm having a problem in hi frequency sound after the mod
 only heard when i'm playing a movie dvd (not exactly original
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 but ripped close enough
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )
 it's a crackle sound, tested on tokyo drift dvd...

 i'm not using ERS paper shielding tho....

 any help here?


----------



## dytln_02

add bypass caps at op-amp psu.

http://tangentsoft.net/audio/hs-opamp.html


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cotdt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_they are in parallel... so 22uF + 22uF_

 

They are not in parallel. It is a balanced input circuit that have both a plus & minus input to cancel distortion & increase output for a given input voltage/current. There is a coupling capacitor in both input circuits thus it requires 2 per channel. These can be bypassed but if you do both legs of the input must be bypassed or you will have massive D.C. offset at the output. With both legs of the input bypassed the D.C. offset cancels out.


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_They are not in parallel. It is a balanced input circuit that have both a plus & minus input to cancel distortion & increase output for a given input voltage/current. There is a coupling capacitor in both input circuits thus it requires 2 per channel. These can be bypassed but if you do both legs of the input must be bypassed or you will have massive D.C. offset at the output. With both legs of the input bypassed the D.C. offset cancels out._

 

ah that makes sense. i stand corrected.


----------



## germanium

When I had modded the card before I had bypassed the wrong capacitors. I bypassed the ones right beside the ones I should have. I now have the proper ones bypassed & oh what a DIFFERENCE. Big time improvements in the bass & dynamics. Midrange is also much clearer throughout the range though on some songs but not all there appears a little glare in the upper mids. Treble is way more defined but not increased in level, there is just more spaciousness & detail combined with smoothness.

 The dynamics are killer now, very much like live music. You can get a real gut massage with the bass comes from my speakers now. It sounded compressed before. The bass now is so strong & yet so defined that can give you a headache after a while if your not used to it. Yet it never covers up any of the other parts of the spectrum.

 I'm still running stock opamps even.

 D.C. offset is a little high but still safe at 180mV


----------



## ROBSCIX

Do you have a Pic, so guys know which caps to bypass?


----------



## event

How will this mod on an XtremeAudio compare to the new Azuntech X-Fi Prelude that should be out soon?


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *event* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How will this mod on an XtremeAudio compare to the new Azuntech X-Fi Prelude that should be out soon?_

 

no one has yet heard the Auzentech Prelude, but I have heard that same DAC chip with the same LM4562, and I like it a lot. It is definately the card to get, but I heard it will be expensive and if it is, you might as well go for certain external DACs. Even opamps like the LM4562 lack the slew rate and bandwidth required for true transparent sound.


----------



## rbui

^I believe the Auzentech Prelude should run somewhere around $200, making it a bit pricey when you consider the fact that a fully modded XtremeMusic would still run under $100

 anyways, I thought I'd comment on National Semiconductor's sample LM4562 OpAmps and their level of service...and to sum it all up in one word, it would be *remarkable*.

 I ordered three sample OpAmps on a Thursday (at around 1AM mind you) and selected the quickest shipping/handling option that was available, as I was in a hurry to get them soon before I left town. Incredibly, the quickest option I chose resulted in National Semiconductor sending me the OpAmps via UPS Next Day Air, and I received them on Friday at 9AM. total cost of this endeavor? zilch, after using my school (educational) email address. It was unbelievable, I never expected this level of business and customer service.

 3 LM4562MA samples + UPS Next Day Air = $0.00 + extremely happy customer


----------



## djbigbear

guys.... help me....

 i'm using:
 1 BLKGATE- NX 1000uF 25v
 4 BLKGATE- NX Hi-Q 22uF 6.3v
 8 BLKGATE- Std 22uF 16v 
 3 LM4562MA
 1 AD8066ARZ

 when i set spdif on and dolby dynamic range to maximum... i got crackle whenever large booming or screeching sound occurs on movie.
 it only happens in movie....
 any help?


----------



## mojo

I have been reading this thead looking for some information on how to stick the ERS paper on?

 It needs to be insulated, so I am planning to stick the ERS paper to some non-conductive ESD foam. How can I attach this to the card though? I could just let it rest (the solder joints will keep it in place) but...


----------



## soloz2

spray adhesive


----------



## mojo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *soloz2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_spray adhesive_

 

Wouldn't that trash the card though?

 I'm thinking maybe a bit of electrical tape or something. The photos on the forum don't really show anything though.


----------



## soloz2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mojo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wouldn't that trash the card though?

 I'm thinking maybe a bit of electrical tape or something. The photos on the forum don't really show anything though._

 

As long as the stuff you use isn't conductive and you don't use a lot you'll be alright.


----------



## ROBSCIX

ERS paper has given quite a few people Negative returns when used for soundcards. In fact some have said it noticeably degrades sound quality. If this paper keeps EMI/RFI out of the card from other sources it will keep these negative interferences from escaping from the card and will just be reflected back into the circuitry. Atleast that is how it should work. I figure if your gonna use it, shield the card but leave some space between the card and the paper, a few inches...
 If you can put the card in the bottom slot and use the paper to make a barrier between the card and the rest of the mobo... If you understand what I mean.
 This will probably give you the best results without too much negative impact on sound.


----------



## germanium

One of the other mods I did to my X-Fi card, besides D.C. coupling, was bypass the power supply caps. I bypassed the large one 220uf with 3.3uf metalized film & the 2 power supply caps closest to the D.A. converter with 3.3uf metalized film caps. This improves the dynamics across the board, from the highest treble well into the bass. I believe this has much more effect than replacing the electrolytics with any kind of higher grade electrolytic including the black gates. I venture to say that it would even trump the opamp replacement. The distortion level of the JRC opamp while nothing to write home about is not of any real consequence either. Much more improvement can be had elsewhere soundwise without compromizing it's ability to drive headphones to a reasonable level. The highest distortion componant with my soundcard set up the way it is is below -100db for THD & below -90 DB for the TID. Niether of these distortion levels would be audible. .0012% THD is not going to be any more audible than .00006%. Both are well below the hearing threshhold.

 The thing with the antielectrostatic paper backed with foam is the glue used to hold it to the soundcard can have negative effects on the sound (loss of detail & fuzziness to the sound in some cases at least temporarely anyway).

 These are besides the D.C. coupling mods.


----------



## mojo

I suppose the thing to do is lay it on top and do some ABX testing with and without.

 BTW, the card is an Onkyo SE-200PCI. I will mainly be using the optical out to a C.E.C. DA53, and the analogue out to monitors for casual listening and games.


----------



## djbigbear

@germanium
 any pic of your mod?


----------



## cadobhuk

so,would anyone mod the x-fi for me when the need arises?Are there people who do it for others?


----------



## djbigbear

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cadobhuk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_so,would anyone mod the x-fi for me when the need arises?Are there people who do it for others?_

 

soloz2!
 well me too... but i live on different continent in a country which has suck-ass shipment custom.


----------



## jeuda

I did mine with 5xLM4562, 1xRubycon 1200uf 16v ZL. 

 Can't really tell the difference....


----------



## djbigbear

not until u hear the default X-Fi


----------



## dufflover

I've done a lot of reading here and elsewhere, but after so long, time to get a final answer from the pros 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 . Also will point out now I only plan to do the regulation op-amp and power cap mod.

*A capacitor question.*

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hardnrg* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_(M) stands for Matsu****a, brands include Technics and Panasonic - i.e. one of the best capacitor brands, up there with Nichicon and Rubycon_

 

Like many others, needed a Blackgate alternative, and researched Nichicon and Rubycon being mentioned in this thread with a good rep. Eventually ordered the 2200uF/16V caps thru Uni and recently received them; a Rubycon ZL, and 5x (minimum order size 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) Nichicon HE.
 But just today after following the X-Fi thread on my local forums, someone mentioned the Panasonic FM which I've looked at and it has better specs (longer life, lower impedance, higher ripple) and is also cheaper ... go figure 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 . In hindsight I stupidly dismissed this cos I thought the Ruby's and/or Nich's were better, and the Panasonic being a more ... generic-type thing (like good "ideal" ratings but bad reliability/quality in real life).

*So I am wondering if it is worth using (upgrading to?) the Panasonic instead?*
 Cost wise shouldn't matter, but I won't go through the hassle and delay (and the result of having 7 unused big caps), if it won't that much of a difference.

 Links to the products and datasheets are here for those who are keen (many thanks 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ) and need more details:
 - Rubycon ZL
 - Nichicon HE
 - Panasonic FM


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dufflover* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've done a lot of reading here and elsewhere, but after so long, time to get a final answer from the pros 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 . Also will point out now I only plan to do the regulation op-amp and power cap mod.

*A capacitor question.*



 Like many others, needed a Blackgate alternative, and researched Nichicon and Rubycon being mentioned in this thread with a good rep. Eventually ordered the 2200uF/16V caps thru Uni and recently received them; a Rubycon ZL, and 5x (minimum order size 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) Nichicon HE.
 But just today after following the X-Fi thread on my local forums, someone mentioned the Panasonic FM which I've looked at and it has better specs (longer life, lower impedance, higher ripple) and is also cheaper ... go figure 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 . In hindsight I stupidly dismissed this cos I thought the Ruby's and/or Nich's were better, and the Panasonic being a more ... generic-type thing (like good "ideal" ratings but bad reliability/quality in real life).

*So I am wondering if it is worth using (upgrading to?) the Panasonic instead?*
 Cost wise shouldn't matter, but I won't go through the hassle and delay (and the result of having 7 unused big caps), if it won't that much of a difference.

 Links to the products and datasheets are here for those who are keen (many thanks 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ) and need more details:
 - Rubycon ZL
 - Nichicon HE
 - Panasonic FM_

 

Your missing the best part of the mod process it you don't direct couple the DAC to the output opamp as this is where the greatest difference is & makes all the other mods all that much more appearant. The coupling caps are what holds this card back the most & while you may hear small improvements without the direct coupling (D.C. coupling actually in this case), you will be able to hear any other improvements much better when D.C. coupled. You see the electrolytic capacitors should never be used as coupling capacitors as they absorb too much of the signal with their high dielectric absorbtion (minimum 5% dielectric absorbtion compared to for example metalized film .01% max dielectric absorbtion & 0% for D.C. coupling). With D.C. coupling power supply mods can be easily heard on evey song. I prefer to just bypass certain powersupply caps with large value mettalized films as this produces the lowest ESR accross all frequencies & is readilly audible (much more life to the music yet smoother more detailed treble to boot.


----------



## dufflover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Your missing the best part of the mod process it you don't direct couple the DAC to the output opamp as this is where the greatest difference is & makes all the other mods all that much more appearant._

 

I'll go back through the thread to double-check this, but you're talking about shorting those smaller coupling caps right? (I'll add a link later if I can find it)

 I thought the amps and cap were biggest difference. (just from reading around anyway). I definitely won't be going as far as that ERS paper and stuff though. I already think the X-Fi sounds pretty good (coming from onboard/X-530s then onboard/Z-5400s)

_this thing?_
 Are you referring to this part of the mod? (in the OP) I know basic electronics from being an Eng student, but certainly not the nitty gritty of analog electronics (I hate it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




), and coupling/decoupling is one of those things. The thing I've learnt on decoupling is to put it across the Vcc/GND supply pins of a digital IC to help isolate it from voltage variation in the DC supply rails 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


 "Short the 22uF caps near each opamp (there are 4 of them for each one). I definately recommend it as others beside myself also think that shorting improves the detail and realism, with no ill effects on the card. They seem to be decoupling caps, not coupling caps, and make the DAC more stable. Not needed though, it's perfectly stable without them. 
 

this post too:
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showth...72#post2801572


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dufflover* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'll go back through the thread to double-check this, but you're talking about shorting those smaller coupling caps right? (I'll add a link later if I can find it)

 I thought the amps and cap were biggest difference. (just from reading around anyway). I definitely won't be going as far as that ERS paper and stuff though. I already think the X-Fi sounds pretty good (coming from onboard/X-530s then onboard/Z-5400s)

this thing?
 Are you referring to this part of the mod? (in the OP) I know basic electronics from being an Eng student, but certainly not the nitty gritty of analog electronics (I hate it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




), and coupling/decoupling is one of those things. The thing I've learnt on decoupling is to put it across the Vcc/GND supply pins of a digital IC to help isolate it from voltage variation in the DC supply rails 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






 this post too:
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showth...72#post2801572_

 

Hi there Dufflover. 

 The caps I'm refering to are in fact coupling caps not decoupling. There are 2 long rows of caps near the output opamps then there are 4 caps that are slightly set back from the rest. These are the coupling caps for the front channels. You will notice that these are turned 90 degrees from the rest when you look at the bottom of the card. These are the ones you need to short for stereo output. You can short the others in that long row as well for multichannel sound.There are 4 caps for each opamp that need to be shorted. If you get a bad short through a bad solder joint though you will end up having huge D.C. offset that can damage the opamp & any device you send the signal to if they are direct coupled so care must be taken to make sure thatall solder joints are properly made. They don't have to look pretty, just make a good connection without storting anything else out with stray solder.

 This info referes to all the original X-Fis with the true X-Fi chip except the Elite Pro version. Not sure if it will work with the Extreme audio or the smaller size gamer card. The Elite Pro uses diferent DACs & has a lot more capacitors near the opamps some of which are coupling & the others powersupply decoupling caps. I have no experience with that card but I do with the standard size true X-Fi cards.

 Ron B. 
 hope this helps some.


----------



## rbui

ugh, I finally received my XtremeMusic and bought the soldering tools, but I'm not so confident in my modding skills just yet, especially on a task like this. You'd think they would be bigger, but when you put it all into perspective, like next to a dime or ruler...


----------



## kite7

I would not risk it especially if you are not confident enough. Get a few pcbs and practice for awhile


----------



## bobarrigo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Your missing the best part of the mod process it you don't direct couple the DAC to the output opamp as this is where the greatest difference is & makes all the other mods all that much more appearant. The coupling caps are what holds this card back the most & while you may hear small improvements without the direct coupling (D.C. coupling actually in this case), you will be able to hear any other improvements much better when D.C. coupled. You see the electrolytic capacitors should never be used as coupling capacitors as they absorb too much of the signal with their high dielectric absorbtion (minimum 5% dielectric absorbtion compared to for example metalized film .01% max dielectric absorbtion & 0% for D.C. coupling). With D.C. coupling power supply mods can be easily heard on evey song. I prefer to just bypass certain powersupply caps with large value mettalized films as this produces the lowest ESR accross all frequencies & is readilly audible (much more life to the music yet smoother more detailed treble to boot._

 


 Holy crap am I excited! I just ordered an X-Fi Platinum Fatal1ty and I am going to mod the hell out of it.


----------



## ter1

I've elite pro card and I've orderred 5 LME49860 (upgrade to LM4562) and BG 16v2200uF caps. I have some questions, could someone answer these? Thanks in advance!!

 1. The 2 columns of caps near the ops of elite pro is similar with the pics for standard x-fi, is someone successfully shorted the coupling caps for elite pro? Can someone post a picture?

 2. besides the 4 caps for each 2channels, what's the functions for the other caps in the 2 columns? I want to further mod the card, can someone give me some advice on how to deal with them? Replace them with audio-grade caps? Which models do you suggest?

 3. I'm doing recording, can someone tell me if I need to replace the line-in op? Which is the line-in op on elite pro? Can I replace it with LME49860?

 4. Besides the 2200uf 16v BG and shield, is there other ways to improve the spdif output?

 5. How about the remaining caps? Some are coupling ones and some are decoupling ones, can someone post a picture for the 2 kinds for elite pro? What replacements do you suggest for these 'other' caps?

 Thanks in deed for your kind information, I know someone is interested in above questions either. I've read through all the posts, but never find answers to many of above my questions.

 Also, I attached the RMAA results for my elite pro card below...












 It seems x-fi elite pro already has good quality, if I got most of above questions answered, I'll start modding the card, and post the new result on this topic.

 Waiting your answers. Best regards! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ===========================================


----------



## cotdt

Just replace all the output opamps with LM4562, and short all the coupling capacitors.


----------



## djork

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cotdt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just replace all the output opamps with LM4562, and short all the coupling capacitors._

 

Hi cotdt, I'm using the LM4562, but without the coupling caps shorted, will there be a noticeable difference if i short the caps?

 Thanks


----------



## Sir Nobax

Hmmm, just my thoughts, but i see quite alot of highly regarded brands on that X-Fi, what are the components which makes the sound bad, only the op-amps and the usage/type of caps?

 Pretty dumb that the 'top model' isn't "pre-modded" already.

 [edit]

 Oh ***, the Caps are jamicon's ... no wonder why the sound is 'crap'.


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *djork* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi cotdt, I'm using the LM4562, but without the coupling caps shorted, will there be a noticeable difference if i short the caps?

 Thanks_

 

yeah, just try it! if you don't like it, it is easy to reverse.


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sir Nobax* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hmmm, just my thoughts, but i see quite alot of highly regarded brands on that X-Fi, what are the components which makes the sound bad, only the op-amps and the usage/type of caps?

 Pretty dumb that the 'top model' isn't "pre-modded" already.

 [edit]

 Oh ***, the Caps are jamicon's ... no wonder why the sound is 'crap'._

 

That, and also the opamps are crappy. The capacitors inside the opamps are even crappier than the Jamicons, and the opamp introduces a lot of time smear, which does not show up in simple RMAA measurements.


----------



## soloz2

I've seen mixed opinions on which caps are the coupling caps on the Elite Pro


----------



## dufflover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cotdt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_yeah, just try it! if you don't like it, it is easy to reverse._

 

I'm still a bit confused as to which specific caps are the coupling ones to short? Maybe someone could just explicitly circle which ones in a pic? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm kinda sure on what capacitor "field" being referred to, but it's not _that_ obvious which ones are the smaller ones, to me anyway


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dufflover* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm still a bit confused as to which specific caps are the coupling ones to short? Maybe someone could just explicitly circle which ones in a pic? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



_

 

it's the 4 that is closest to the opamp. they are 22uF jamicons.


----------



## dufflover

ok, just to confirm then, here's what I've taken that to mean and I've used paint to dot the 16 caps which I think are the ones to short.

 (note, I haven't physically taken my card out to see which ones are 22uF ones yet)


----------



## ter1

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dufflover* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ok, just to confirm then, here's what I've taken that to mean and I've used paint to dot the 16 caps which I think are the ones to short.

 (note, I haven't physically taken my card out to see which ones are 22uF ones yet)




_

 

Hi, is the caps with red dots the exact caps I need to short for elite pro? if yes, I'll mod short this way.

 Another question, which is the line-in op? I'm doing recordings, so I want to replace it with LM4562 too, thanks!!


----------



## Jingo Lingo

How would you remove the stock op amp if you don't have micro side cutters? Sorry if this has already been answered.


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dufflover* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ok, just to confirm then, here's what I've taken that to mean and I've used paint to dot the 16 caps which I think are the ones to short.

 (note, I haven't physically taken my card out to see which ones are 22uF ones yet)




_

 

seems right. go for it!


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jingo Lingo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How would you remove the stock op amp if you don't have micro side cutters? Sorry if this has already been answered._

 

you can get copper wick and suck up all the solder. or... just add a huge amount of solder, turn the solder iron to max temperature, and lift the opamp out of the molten solder with a tweezer. there are also other ways.


----------



## Jingo Lingo

Thanks for the advice. I just ended up using small scissors. This mod if awesome and practically free, two thumbs up cotdt.


----------



## holland

Would it be possible to zapfilter this? Run the DAC signals out an empty bay in the back and mount the zapfilter in a box on the desk? Not that I would seriously do it, but just curious.


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *holland* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Would it be possible to zapfilter this? Run the DAC signals out an empty bay in the back and mount the zapfilter in a box on the desk? Not that I would seriously do it, but just curious._

 

of course you can, but such a mod would be more involved than just swapping out the opamp. there are also certain opamps with better specs than the LM4562 that can be used, but they require a different voltage and not just a direct-swap in. alternatively, you can also use a transformer-based output. there are many, many ways to do it.


----------



## spiftacu1ar

OMG, i am doing this with my fata1ity pro (with the breakout). I am so glad i didn't get the elite pro now (because i am replacing opamps anyways). For those wondering, the only reason i got the x-fi was that it was on sale at Fry's electronics for (cannot display price, too low, people might kill. lol, jk, twas $50). thats right, i got it for more than 75% off. double rebatage FTW.

 I can't wait to do this mod, does anybody know how much those opamps cost? 

 *looks at ****** old soldering iron* aww, crap, i hope i don't fry the thing.


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *spiftacu1ar* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I can't wait to do this mod, does anybody know how much those opamps cost? 

 *looks at ****** old soldering iron* aww, crap, i hope i don't fry the thing._

 

wow, that was a nice deal. the opamps are free if you order samples for your "company". if you have a university email address, they'll even give you free shipping. the first post of this thread has all the details.


----------



## spiftacu1ar

I think im terribly blind. I read the first post several times over, and i don't see anything about ordering.

 ALso, i may be 16, but i have a stanford.edu email hehe (free shipping) (i am going there for summer school, lol)


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *spiftacu1ar* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think im terribly blind. I read the first post several times over, and i don't see anything about ordering.

 ALso, i may be 16, but i have a stanford.edu email hehe (free shipping) (i am going there for summer school, lol)_

 

You can request free samples here:
http://www.national.com/pf/LM/LM4562.html

 Study some physics, it really pays off in this hobby


----------



## spiftacu1ar

I got this instead: http://www.national.com/pf/LM/LME49860.html
 it's the same thing right? (i ordered 5 free samples b4 you posted)

 Also, do i need to put these in the breakout box (not the elite pro one, but the fata1ity one that goes in the drive bay) as well if i am using the headphone port in the front? Are there any capacitors in the breakout box that need to be changed.


----------



## L0rD_Luke

Alright, I've got a question.

 I tried the mod, and I screwed it up. I tore one of the pads off when I took the old chip off, and I also tore one of the nearby traces. I had someone try to fix it for me, and they did a great job, but there's a lot of noise coming from the right speaker, and it's very quiet.

 So, my quesiton is this: If I buy the I/O drive kit, would that fix my problem? The only thing I tried modding was the opamp, does the drive kit have it's own opamp?


----------



## Log1c

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *L0rD_Luke* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Alright, I've got a question.

 I tried the mod, and I screwed it up. I tore one of the pads off when I took the old chip off, and I also tore one of the nearby traces. I had someone try to fix it for me, and they did a great job, but there's a lot of noise coming from the right speaker, and it's very quiet.

 So, my quesiton is this: If I buy the I/O drive kit, would that fix my problem? The only thing I tried modding was the opamp, does the drive kit have it's own opamp?_

 

I did the same thing, but was able to fix it. The traces that go directly to the op amp are very short, remove the old one and trace the via (alternate word for trace on pcb) back to where it meets a surface mount component. Take a couple thin strands of stranded wire and solder it to the sm part. then carefully bend the wires around so that they meet the input pin on the op amp where its missing the trace. Then cut the wire to the proper length and solder down. I covered my op amp in hot glue so that the wire wouldn't go anywhere. Also make sure you don't short the signal wire to any other pin on the op amp.

 I bought the X-fi platinum because it was $80 bucks after rebate but the front i/o box muddles sound a bit. Either that, or the op amp mod really changed the sound quality.


----------



## L0rD_Luke

It tried fixing it... I think it's just not gonna happen.

 But, if I get the I/O drive, would I still be able to use the card, and just use the drive instead of the actual card port?

 I have enough money for the drive, but not enough for a whole new card. So, I've either gotta get the drive, or just buy a cheaper card.


----------



## ter1

cotdt, can you tell us which one is for line-in op for Elite Pro? Because I'm doing recordings, so I want to change it too. Thanks in advance.


----------



## hyyam85

has anyone tried opamps other than the LM4562? what about the OPA2227 or OPA2107? can they be used as well? they look pretty promising.


----------



## ROBSCIX

I used them on the X-Meridian they are nice amps. CL used craps amps when they built the card so changing them with ANY decent opamp will yield great results. 2107 is expensive last time I checked and has a very clear analytical sound. The 2227 has a very nice bass heavy tone with glossy highs.
 Hope that helps.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dufflover* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ok, just to confirm then, here's what I've taken that to mean and I've used paint to dot the 16 caps which I think are the ones to short.

 (note, I haven't physically taken my card out to see which ones are 22uF ones yet)





_

 

There aren't any 22uf caps on the Elite Pro. They are 47uf. Don't bypass any in the row closest to the DACs except the closest one to you when the card is mounted in the computer. The rest are power supply caps & you will damage the card if you bypass those.

 Just bought the Elite Pro today & modded it already

 Correction there is one or two 22uf caps but not where they can be bypassed as they are part of the power circuit


----------



## germanium

By the way *VERY PLEASED* with the sound of the modded Elite pro compared to the modded platinum. Significantly better!!


----------



## hyyam85

I can't find any Blackgates in my country. Is there anyone who can kindly ship it to me? Of course, I will pay accordingly. I am in New Zealand by the way.

 If not, are there any other alternatives for the Blackgates?


----------



## soloz2

Panasonic FM, or a good Nichicon cap


----------



## hyyam85

can you elaborate more on "good Nichicon cap"? what series?


----------



## ter1

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_By the way *VERY PLEASED* with the sound of the modded Elite pro compared to the modded platinum. Significantly better!!_

 

Hi Germanium, could you confirm the red-dotted ones in the picture are the exact caps need to be shorted?

 Do you know which op is for line-in recording? one 5532? I want to replace it with LME49860 too. Thanks!


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ter1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi Germanium, could you confirm the red-dotted ones in the picture are the exact caps need to be shorted?

 Do you know which op is for line-in recording? one 5532? I want to replace it with LME49860 too. Thanks!_

 

Yes indeed the red dotted caps are the ones to short. The one in the pic that you labled "Line In" is correct. I don't have the card out of my computer now as I'm enjoying it very much. Next time I pull it out I will compare your pics with the real deal & see if the area you asked is dell specific though that may be a while. I looked up the specs on the AKM ADC & though not quite top of the line it is extremely good. Those four large caps next to it can be increased to 1000uf from 470uf. The pdf from the website for akm confirms that that will lower distortion in the bass region, not that that is a real problem though as creative has done a good job on this board, at least in that respect.

 I also bypassed the 220uf power supply cap with1-3.3uf metalized film cap and in the row of caps closest to the DACs I bypassed the 100uf cap with 2-3.3uf metalized film caps in parallel & the 47uf cap was bypassed with 1-3.3uf metalized film cap. I wanted to keep these proportional to each othe to match the prportion of the caps they were bypassing. This is what really opened up the soundstage. There is only room enough to do this with one of the dacs so make sure it is the front channels DAC which is closest to you when you open computer case. 



 Bypassing the power supply caps with metalized film not only opened up the soundstage but made the treble smoother sounding as well as way more detailed. Bypassing power supply cap with metalized film is not new but I do it differently because the way most companies do it leaves a discontinuity in the sound in that the mids still sound slightly muffled & the highs sound open & sweet the way they do it (they do with caps that are way smaller than mine such as 1uf or less). I wanted to open up the midrange so it doesn't sound muffled & going to bypass caps this large improves the sound all the way down into the upper bass so there in no muffled sound anywhere in whole frequency range. It does this by lowering the output impedance of the powersupply throughout the frequency range. It is this lack of muffled sound that brings out the sounstage & life of the music

 By the way don't let anyone tell you if you can't measure it you can't hear it. I have run the tests & it measure dead on in frequence response to the stock card. Distortion measured .0001% worse (big WOW) but when you look at the spectrum the modded card looks superior to the stock card in that the noise floor is much cleaner with a lot fewer spikes but just one or two spikes that go slightly higher than the stock card. Even though there are very slight diferences in the measured performance none are sufficient to explane the difference in audible performance!!


----------



## dufflover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There aren't any 22uf caps on the Elite Pro. They are 47uf. Don't bypass any in the row closest to the DACs except the closest one to you when the card is mounted in the computer. The rest are power supply caps & you will damage the card if you bypass those.

 Just bought the Elite Pro today & modded it already

 Correction there is one or two 22uf caps but not where they can be bypassed as they are part of the power circuit_

 

Well just to clarify with the above post as well where you say they are ones to short 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 , I personally have the XtremeMusic - so are those caps the right ones then?
 (sorry if the photo was of the Elite Pro ... looks very similar to the Music)


----------



## ter1

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes indeed the red dotted caps are the ones to short. The one in the pic that you labled "Line In" is correct. I don't have the card out of my computer now as I'm enjoying it very much. Next time I pull it out I will compare your pics with the real deal & see if the area you asked is dell specific though that may be a while. I looked up the specs on the AKM ADC & though not quite top of the line it is extremely good. Those four large caps next to it can be increased to 1000uf from 470uf. The pdf from the website for akm confirms that that will lower distortion in the bass region, not that that is a real problem though as creative has done a good job on this board, at least in that respect.

 I also bypassed the 220uf power supply cap with1-3.3uf metalized film cap and in the row of caps closest to the DACs I bypassed the 100uf cap with 2-3.3uf metalized film caps in parallel & the 47uf cap was bypassed with 1-3.3uf metalized film cap. I wanted to keep these proportional to each othe to match the prportion of the caps they were bypassing. This is what really opened up the soundstage. There is only room enough to do this with one of the dacs so make sure it is the front channels DAC which is closest to you when you open computer case. 



 Bypassing the power supply caps with metalized film not only opened up the soundstage but made the treble smoother sounding as well as way more detailed. Bypassing power supply cap with metalized film is not new but I do it differently because the way most companies do it leaves a discontinuity in the sound in that the mids still sound slightly muffled & the highs sound open & sweet the way they do it (they do with caps that are way smaller than mine such as 1uf or less). I wanted to open up the midrange so it doesn't sound muffled & going to bypass caps this large improves the sound all the way down into the upper bass so there in no muffled sound anywhere in whole frequency range. It does this by lowering the output impedance of the powersupply throughout the frequency range. It is this lack of muffled sound that brings out the sounstage & life of the music

 By the way don't let anyone tell you if you can't measure it you can't hear it. I have run the tests & it measure dead on in frequence response to the stock card. Distortion measured .0001% worse (big WOW) but when you look at the spectrum the modded card looks superior to the stock card in that the noise floor is much cleaner with a lot fewer spikes but just one or two spikes that go slightly higher than the stock card. Even though there are very slight diferences in the measured performance none are sufficient to explane the difference in audible performance!!_

 






 Thank you for your very detailed info!! I'm now want to have a summary w/ picture....

 1. The red-dotted caps need to be shorted.
 2. The blue-dotted op is for line-in, need to be replace with LME49860.
 3. The 4 caps with blue "100" be bypassed with 2 3.3uf metalized film caps in parallel.
 4. The 4 cpas with "47" be bypassed with 1 3.3uf metalized film cap.
 5. The blue-line 4 caps can be replaced to 1000uf ones for ADC.

 Are the above right? If so, I think lots of modder will follow...

 but is the 220uf power supply cap as you stated "I also bypassed the 220uf power supply cap with1-3.3uf metalized film cap" the Jamicon near the DSP?

 Also, I have some questions about your mod, 
 1. Do you suggest to replace the power caps (both "100" and "47") with more capacitance BG ones? If with more capacitance ones, the capacitance for film caps need to be changed too, right? --------or--------------
 Just replace them with the same capacitance 100uf/25v and 47uf/16v BG ones with your suggested bypassed caps, 
 which will be the better choice?

 2. After your mod, how about the RMAA frequency response line for 96kHz? Still sharp drop after 20kHz?

 3. I'm thinking the caps of 4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11 are for the ADC, what's your suggestions of them? Replace with better BG ones? How about the capacitances? Bigger?

 4. What's the functions of cap 1,2 and 3? What's your suggestions?

 5. What metalized film caps are you using? Suggest more better ones?

 I know it's quite a lot of questions, but we all want to make elite pro even better.... thx...


 It's better you take a shot of your mod!~~


----------



## Gautama

I own the XtremeGamer version, I should still be able to replace the opamp and cap and sheild it shouldn't I? If yes, can someone provide a picture of which caps I would short?


----------



## dufflover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Gautama* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I own the XtremeGamer version, I should still be able to replace the opamp and cap and sheild it shouldn't I? If yes, can someone provide a picture of which caps I would short?_

 

Wouldn't it be the same ones as on the XtremeMusic? (which I think are the red dotted ones on the above pic and mine).
 haha, confirmation would be good so I don't fry my soundcard 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *soloz2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Panasonic FM, or a good Nichicon cap_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hyyam85* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_can you elaborate more on "good Nichicon cap"? what series?_

 

heh, I've got access to a Panasonic FM (well "CE FM" on the actual cap), a RubyCon ZL, and/or a Nichicon HE.
 I take it then the preferred ranking is?:
 1. Pana FM
 2. Nichicon HE
 3. Rubycon ZL

 (the Pana FM is quite ahead of the other two in specs, but the Nichicons were the most expensive 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )


----------



## Gautama

I read through the thread and saw you can't do it on a XtremeGamer, so I've found someone to trade with for an XtremeMusic. Now no one has done an in depth comparison of the LM4562 vs AD8599... So if I want a sound that is maximized for detail, not musicality (Think an anemic sound that reveals every nuance of each instrument) would I want the LM4562 or AD8599? I'm thinking the AD8599 would be best? I'll be using my LDII++ so I don't need tons of coloring in the opamp.


----------



## vixro

I tried to mod my card and at first it didn't work (no sound coming in on the headphones, although windows showed it was sending sound.

 When I went to fix it, I tore 3 of the pads off of the card and couldn't fix it.

 Be forewarned, if you are not good with soldering very small electronics (or have the right tools) you can ruin your hardware.


----------



## germanium

Deleted


----------



## germanium

shorted the line in coupling caps as well as the other mods & got these results in windows vista.

 24 bit 96Khz
 Frequency response +.01,-.04
 Noise level -116.2
 Dynamic Range -116.0
 THD .0007%
 IMD+noise .0010%
 Crosstalk -111.2 
 IMD+noise (swept freq).0008%

 Very very good results I would say. Noise floor lowered a bit in windows vista when I shorted the line in coupling caps & distortion went down slightly. Stereo seperation improved as well. Mine is totally clean on the noise test, Only one low frequency spike no higher than -124db Otherwise all noise is below -130db. All noise above 200Hz is below-140db & at 3KHz is -151.43!!!!!


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ter1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_






 Thank you for your very detailed info!! I'm now want to have a summary w/ picture....

 1. The red-dotted caps need to be shorted.
 2. The blue-dotted op is for line-in, need to be replace with LME49860.
 3. The 4 caps with blue "100" be bypassed with 2 3.3uf metalized film caps in parallel.
 4. The 4 cpas with "47" be bypassed with 1 3.3uf metalized film cap.
 5. The blue-line 4 caps can be replaced to 1000uf ones for ADC.

 Are the above right? If so, I think lots of modder will follow...

 but is the 220uf power supply cap as you stated "I also bypassed the 220uf power supply cap with1-3.3uf metalized film cap" the Jamicon near the DSP?

 Also, I have some questions about your mod, 
 1. Do you suggest to replace the power caps (both "100" and "47") with more capacitance BG ones? If with more capacitance ones, the capacitance for film caps need to be changed too, right? --------or--------------
 Just replace them with the same capacitance 100uf/25v and 47uf/16v BG ones with your suggested bypassed caps, 
 which will be the better choice?

 2. After your mod, how about the RMAA frequency response line for 96kHz? Still sharp drop after 20kHz?

 3. I'm thinking the caps of 4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11 are for the ADC, what's your suggestions of them? Replace with better BG ones? How about the capacitances? Bigger?

 4. What's the functions of cap 1,2 and 3? What's your suggestions?

 5. What metalized film caps are you using? Suggest more better ones?

 I know it's quite a lot of questions, but we all want to make elite pro even better.... thx...


 It's better you take a shot of your mod!~~
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

The above description is correct except I did not change the 470uf caps to 1000 but did read in the design sheet that that could be done to get very slightly better low frequency distortion. I also only did the front channels so I only bypassed the 100uf closest to the outside of the board & the second 47uf cap in the back row. There is not enough room to put 12 of these mettalized film caps that it would take to do all channels. I only use stereo anyway.


 1. No do not change those caps size as that is what Cirrus logic calls for as far as the 100uf one, the design sheet calls for 33uf where the 47uf cap is but I doubt that that one is critical but 100uf one is probably critical.

 2 excellent response to 43KHz. -.12db. The recording setting setting settings must have been set wrong. That is why other people were getting the sound chopped at 20KHz. Set correctly it should go all the way to 44KHz with almost no rolloff.

 3. cap 4&5 are coupling caps & can be shorted. The others I'm pretty sure are powersupply. I would leave these at their stock size & maybe use BG caps. Shorting 4&5 improved performance in several areas with no drawbacks.

 4.caps 1&2 are +&-12volt powersupply for the analog output opamps. I'm not sure of th number 3 cap.

 5.Didn't see a brand name but they are polyester 3.3@100volt. Higher voltage ones may sound better but take up much more room & would stress the solder connections. 

 no pics as Headfi won't accept my pics as they are to large.


----------



## phalanger

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Gautama* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I read through the thread and saw you can't do it on a XtremeGamer, so I've found someone to trade with for an XtremeMusic. Now no one has done an in depth comparison of the LM4562 vs AD8599... So if I want a sound that is maximized for detail, not musicality (Think an anemic sound that reveals every nuance of each instrument) would I want the LM4562 or AD8599? I'm thinking the AD8599 would be best? I'll be using my LDII++ so I don't need tons of coloring in the opamp._

 

I've used both and even though I'm not going to do an in-depth review about opamps right now, I can tell you that neither of them sound anemic, which would be a lack of bass response and 'gusto'/impact, as far as i know. Both opamps do just fine in that department. So if your amp is too bassy then neither of the opamps will change that. In my experience with the two, the AD8599 has a bit more detail and separation to it than the LM4562.
 Hope that helps.


----------



## Gautama

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *phalanger* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've used both and even though I'm not going to do an in-depth review about opamps right now, I can tell you that neither of them sound anemic, which would be a lack of bass response and 'gusto'/impact, as far as i know. Both opamps do just fine in that department. So if your amp is too bassy then neither of the opamps will change that. In my experience with the two, the AD8599 has a bit more detail and separation to it than the LM4562.
 Hope that helps._

 

By anemic I meant bland and a "flat" sound. So good bass was wanted 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'll probably grab the AD8599.


----------



## phalanger

try em both if you can 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 though swapping opamps too often increases risk of problems ofcourse. You can also use both if youre mostly after 2 channel sound and have a 7.1 cable, thats what i did. It comes out a stereo plug for both of them after that cable. Then with the mixer panel you can route where the channels are mapped. If you have to go for one of them then yeah the AD is probably your best bet. It has amazing clarity and detail.


----------



## ter1

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The above description is correct except I did not change the 470uf caps to 1000 but did read in the design sheet that that could be done to get very slightly better low frequency distortion. I also only did the front channels so I only bypassed the 100uf closest to the outside of the board & the second 47uf cap in the back row. There is not enough room to put 12 of these mettalized film caps that it would take to do all channels. I only use stereo anyway.


 1. No do not change those caps size as that is what Cirrus logic calls for as far as the 100uf one, the design sheet calls for 33uf where the 47uf cap is but I doubt that that one is critical but 100uf one is probably critical.

 2 excellent response to 43KHz. -.12db. The recording setting setting settings must have been set wrong. That is why other people were getting the sound chopped at 20KHz. Set correctly it should go all the way to 44KHz with almost no rolloff.

 3. cap 4&5 are coupling caps & can be shorted. The others I'm pretty sure are powersupply. I would leave these at their stock size & maybe use BG caps. Shorting 4&5 improved performance in several areas with no drawbacks.

 4.caps 1&2 are +&-12volt powersupply for the analog output opamps. I'm not sure of th number 3 cap.

 5.Didn't see a brand name but they are polyester 3.3@100volt. Higher voltage ones may sound better but take up much more room & would stress the solder connections. 

 no pics as Headfi won't accept my pics as they are to large._

 


 Thanks so much for your detailed info!!

 but is the 220uf power supply cap as you stated "I also bypassed the 220uf power supply cap with1-3.3uf metalized film cap" is cap 1 and 2 in the picture or the 220uf Jamicon near the DSP?

 If it's 1&2, do I need to bypass both with 1 polyester 3.3@100v for each?

 How about the main powersupply cap near DSP? Is there a need to bypass with 1 polyester 3.3@100v also?


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ter1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks so much for your detailed info!!

 but is the 220uf power supply cap as you stated "I also bypassed the 220uf power supply cap with1-3.3uf metalized film cap" is cap 1 and 2 in the picture or the 220uf Jamicon near the DSP?

 If it's 1&2, do I need to bypass both with 1 polyester 3.3@100v for each?

 How about the main powersupply cap near DSP? Is there a need to bypass with 1 polyester 3.3@100v also?_

 

Yes the one near the DSP. I found that the combined total if you also bypass the ones near the opamp makes it seem a little too bright.


----------



## LawnGnome

Shorting the caps used to provide enough current for the opamp to function properly is ridiculous. 

 It makes absolutely no sense at all from a design view. And they aren't in the signal path, so there goes that theory.

 Provide real information to support your claims instead of "i think it sounds better"

 EDIT: 

 Also, if those capacitors actually were coupling capacitors, wouldn't shorting them let the DC signal pass along with the AC signal result in very bad results?

 Also, think about it, if the capacitors only do harm to the sound quality, and do no good for the circuit, why would creative put them there? Why would a company which is notorious for being cheap, unnecessarily increase its product costs?


----------



## bichi

*X-FI OP AMP, CAP MOD - SOLDERING PASTE METHOD:*
 - a bit wordy, but after a bit of practice, much easier to execute than with "wire" solder

*Link to pictures:*
http://www.esnips.com/web/X-FIOpAmpandCapModification

 PREP:
 - secure the board to prevent movement while work is in progress
 (ie., PCB vice or masking-tape board to kitchen type cutting board)
 (imagine trying to solder, hold parts with board skating across desk...)
 (admit it, even experienced pukes have done this..)
 - eye-loupe or magnifying glass
 - sleep
 - no triple-java-double-pump vente coffee or 5 cans of Jolt cola
 - proper tools (no hardware store wire-cutters, pliers, prying with screwdrivers)
 - practice on scrap, if needed

_STANDARD Sn/Pb Leaded Solder vs. Lead-Free SnAgCu (ROHS)
 - melting point of "Lead-Free" solder is higher, about 218c/424f, as opposed to Sn/Pb, 183c/362f, depending on brand
 - as of July 1, 2006, lead was to be eliminated from electronics manufacturing_ 

 OP AMP REMOVAL: 
 Clipping leads of NJM4556 preferred over heating joints and "pulling" part off board. (can cause solder pads to be pulled off)
 - carefully clip NJM4556 leads with appropriate "small tip" cutter and remove body
 - heat each remaining lead and "lift/slide" off with tip of soldering iron or small tipped tool (ie., fine tipped tweezer, toothpick)
 - remove remaining solder with solder wick or "vacuum-pump" based desolder tool
 - clean pad area with acetone, denatured alcohol or other suitable "flux remover"

 INSTALLING NEW OP AMP:
 - place small amount of solder paste on each solder pad on board with fine tipped tool 
 - carefully place new op amp in correct orientation/position (dot indicates pin 1)
 - wipe soldering iron tip to remove any residual solder (wet sponge preferred method) (repeat this, before each lead or set of leads)
 - hold new op amp in place with fine tipped tool and "touch" clean soldering iron tip to one joint
 - solder paste should go molten very quickly (less than 1 sec)
 - remember to wipe tip before next lead! 
 - check for correct lead/pad position before soldering remaining leads
 - (soldering one lead will hold the part in correct position while soldering remaining leads)
 - (soldering one lead, makes for easy removal and repositioning, if op amp shifted out of correct position)
 - clean soldered area with acetone, denatured alcohol or other suitable "flux remover"
 - inspect solder joints with eye-loupe for solder bridges, gaps and other soldering defects

 CAPACITOR REMOVAL:
 - as stated in this thread, removal of the 220uf filter capacitor requires different technique
 - mass of PCB ground plane acts as a "heatsink" and takes a bit of time for joint to "soften" enough for safe removal
 - pulling the capacitor lead, if solder joint is not "soft/molten" state, can lead to pulling the PCB VIA out
 - overheating the joint can cause copper VIA to oxidize, become brittle, intermittent or disintigrate
 - techniques I use: 
 1) heat the joint with both soldering iron and desolder tool and when solder is "molten" state, activate pump
 2) clip the capacitor out, leaving just leads and desolder, removing lead stubs
 3) if capacitor is close to PCB, then "cut capacitor body" until only the leads are left, then desolder, removing lead stubs
 4) "heat" and push-out with pin is effective, but attention to "solder softness" of joints, prior to "push-pull" is key
 5) easy way out: clip out capacitor, leaving enough of "stub" length to solder new capacitor

*Link to pictures:*
http://www.esnips.com/web/X-FIOpAmpandCapModification

_SOLDER PASTE:
http://www.digikey.com/scripts/DkSea...e=SMD291SNL-ND
http://webtronics.stores.yahoo.net/noclsopas29.html

 SOLDERING TOOLS:
 Hakko 454 25W soldering iron: http://shop2.outpost.com/product/155...H:MAIN_RSLT_PG
 Hakko 808 desolder tool: http://shop2.outpost.com/product/276...H:MAIN_RSLT_PG

 SIDE CUTTER:
 Xcelite 170M: http://shop2.outpost.com/product/191...H:MAIN_RSLT_PG

 PARTS USED:
 Opamp: National Semiconductor: *LME49860* - http://www.national.com/pf/LM/LME49860.html
 Press Release: http://www.edn.com/pressRelease/2140057957.html
 C177 Capacitor: Panasonic: FK, Low-ESR Series, SMT, 1500uf @ 16vdc (best fit part on hand)_

*Two RMAA v6.0.5 test results*
 - 16bit / 44khz and 24bit / 96khz


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LawnGnome* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Shorting the caps used to provide enough current for the opamp to function properly is ridiculous. 

 It makes absolutely no sense at all from a design view. And they aren't in the signal path, so there goes that theory.

 Provide real information to support your claims instead of "i think it sounds better"

 EDIT: 

 Also, if those capacitors actually were coupling capacitors, wouldn't shorting them let the DC signal pass along with the AC signal result in very bad results?

 Also, think about it, if the capacitors only do harm to the sound quality, and do no good for the circuit, why would creative put them there? Why would a company which is notorious for being cheap, unnecessarily increase its product costs?_

 

I'm not shorting the power supply caps. I'm bypassing them with metalyzed film caps of relative high value. I have already posted my RMAA results to show no loss of performance. RMAA results however cannot predict actual sound. The sound from the modded card is substantially clearer than the stock card yet the frequency response measures exactly the same,THD only very very slightly worse & IMD is actually better in the modded card by a good margin.

 Yes shorting the coupling caps does result in a small amount of D.C. at the output but in most situations it is of little or no consequence. It is many cases more expensive to direct couple as you have to use better active parts & do more work to ensure that the D.C. from the DACs input into the output opamps is perfectly balanced so the D.C. output is within spec. Creative has in fact produced D.C. coupled soundcards. The Audigy 2 series is a good example. In many ways the Audigy 2 sounded clearer & cleaner than the stock X-Fi cards even though technical performance was worse. D.C. coupling the X-Fi brings them up to snuff with & improves to above the Audigy 2 series in sound quality as X-Fi uses better DACs.

 In just about every transistor design the power supply is in signal path as the signal almost always has to return to the powersupply when it is finished doing it's work. Precious few designs get around this with transistors.Push-pull class A1 transformer coupled tube amps the power supply is not in any way in the signal path as the total power though the output transformer is not modulated at all until you reach near max power and that is only due to the nonlinearity of the tubes at that power level. Below that they are very linear.


----------



## trodas

Somebiody shoud ASAP fix the first picture missing about the removing caps... It is not there and no way to get it from the cursed Imagetrash thing...
 See:
http://img232.imageshack.us/my.php?i...labeledal7.jpg


----------



## spiftacu1ar

HI, i did this mod, but i only did one opamp to start. I was about to order more opamps for the rest of the mod, when i found this: LME49720

 I was wondering if it is also a drop in replacement, because it is better than the other one which is recommended in the tutorial.


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *spiftacu1ar* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_HI, i did this mod, but i only did one opamp to start. I was about to order more opamps for the rest of the mod, when i found this: LME49720

 I was wondering if it is also a drop in replacement, because it is better than the other one which is recommended in the tutorial._

 

LME49720 and LME49860 announced July 23, 2007
 Press Release: http://www.edn.com/pressRelease/2140057957.html

 From the datasheets, there are no "technical" audio performance differences between the parts and are "interchangeable," relative to X-FI mod
 - both LM4562 and LME49720 can use Vs(+/-) (supply voltage) of 2.5 to *17vdc*
 - LME49860 uses Vs(+/-) (supply voltage) of 2.5 to *22vdc*
 - op amp section of X-FI uses (+/-) 5vdc, therefore, there is no advantage (larger voltage swing only at higher Vs)
 - LM4562 and LME49720 at about $2.83 USD and LME49860 about $3.54 USD each, budgetary pricing

 Human "perception" of how the newer parts sound, is another matter
 - only time will tell, since the new parts have only recently been released.....

 I installed a new LME49860, only because it came in a "design sample" pack (see post #1062 above)
 - if I were to design for a Vs(+/-) 5vdc, most likely would have selected either LM4562 or LME49720

 REF:
 National Semiconductor: LM4562 - http://www.national.com/pf/LM/LM4562.html
 National Semiconductor: LME49720 - http://www.national.com/pf/LM/LME49720.html
 National Semiconductor: LME49860 - http://www.national.com/pf/LM/LME49860.html


----------



## LawnGnome

bichi,

 Your rmaa tests results are worse than a stock x-fi xtrememusic.

 Sure you didn't make any mistakes?


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LawnGnome* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_bichi,

 Your rmaa tests results are worse than a stock x-fi xtrememusic.

 Sure you didn't make any mistakes?_

 

They seem to me to be within a margin of exceptable tolerance for a new card. 1 or 2 thousandths differance isn't going to make or break the sound of the card. You can get that much variance between new cards in other words & be acceptable. Most of those specs are already good enough so as not to contribute to the actual quality of the audible sound. There are many other factors that determine the actual sound that the spec sheet just cannot truthfully address. Zero feedback class A1 push pull vacumm tubes have much poorer specs but still sound worlds better than most transistor amps.

 It is the going after the spec sheet that has in many ways damaged the enjoyment of music when listening to amps that use tons of feedback in order to get those nice beautifull specs. feedback squashes in many cases the dynamics that make music sound live. So does poor power supply design especially with transistors.This is especially true when driving speakers or headphones as these are highly reactive loads. It's not so bad when driving a purely resistive load. I have head this with my own ears comparing different levels of feedback on an amp with variable feedback with the option of no feedback. On Class A1 push pull tubes you can choke the power supply till the cows come home & not negatively effect the sound. All the chokes do in this case is knock down the hum very significantly, especially the harmonics..


----------



## LawnGnome

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_They seem to me to be within a margin of exceptable tolerance for a new card. 1 or 2 thousandths differance isn't going to make or break the sound of the card. You can get that much variance between new cards in other words & be acceptable. Most of those specs are already good enough so as not to contribute to the actual quality of the audible sound. There are many other factors that determine the actual sound that the spec sheet just cannot truthfully address. Zero feedback class A1 push pull vacumm tubes have much poorer specs but still sound worlds better than most transistor amps.

 It is the going after the spec sheet that has in many ways damaged the enjoyment of music when listening to amps that use tons of feedback in order to get those nice beautifull specs. feedback squashes in many cases the dynamics that make music sound live. So does poor power supply design especially with transistors.This is especially true when driving speakers or headphones as these are highly reactive loads. It's not so bad when driving a purely resistive load. I have head this with my own ears comparing different levels of feedback on an amp with variable feedback with the option of no feedback. On Class A1 push pull tubes you can choke the power supply till the cows come home & not negatively effect the sound. All the chokes do in this case is knock down the hum very significantly, especially the harmonics.._

 

I understand that, however according to the chips spec's, it should perform better than it is. Especially the THD+Noise. It shouldn't be limited by the DAC either, since the DAC is rated for higher than that.

 I think it may have something to do with the voltage. I don't think either the DAC or the opamp is receiving enough voltage to reach its full potential. 

 If this was the case, it is something that could be easily remedied with a TREAD. Hook the TREAD up to the 12v rail, and have the TREAD regulate to 18V, then cut the trace feeding the opamp/dac and solder on the lead from the TREAD.

 There also might be an easier way. The mosfet near the bottom of the card may be for regulating the voltage to the opamps, if this is fed from the 5V line, you could lift the leg of the FET and solder a lead from 12V.

 I have done this before on motherboards and videocards for overclocking. And I'd bet DIMM slot power management is more complex than feeding an opamp.


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LawnGnome* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_bichi,
 Your rmaa tests results are worse than a stock x-fi xtrememusic.
 Sure you didn't make any mistakes?_

 

No, no mistakes...
 - only did the op amp and power cap mods, which is too simple to fek-up. (will not work or have missing channel)
 - what I failed to do is take RMAA measurements prior to doing mod to compare against. (yeah, yeah, sux2bme)
 - to *germanium's* point about "component tolerance" between individual cards, or any mass-produced product, is absolutely true. (ie., Jamicon couple/decouple caps have tolerance of +/- 20%) 
 - only "valid" way to measure performance improvements is using the same card (SB0460 F1), system, X-FI drivers, RMAA and mixer settings, etc., before and after. 
 - secondly, I used the newer *LME49860* with Vs range of 2.5~22vdc, instead of 2.5~17vdc and might be out of performance "sweet-spot," relative to older, lower voltage LM4562 or newer LME49720.
 - just for curiosity's sake, might change to LME49720 and do comparison, if I have time. (relative to LME49860)

 Subjectively, I can hear/feel a difference with my simple, "stereo" setup in "tighter bass" and "cleaner highs," compared to original NJM4556. (better slew rate)
 - Playback: http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_u...BX5a-main.html


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LawnGnome* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I understand that, however according to the chips spec's, it should perform better than it is. Especially the THD+Noise. It shouldn't be limited by the DAC either, since the DAC is rated for higher than that.

 I think it may have something to do with the voltage. I don't think either the DAC or the opamp is receiving enough voltage to reach its full potential. 

 If this was the case, it is something that could be easily remedied with a TREAD. Hook the TREAD up to the 12v rail, and have the TREAD regulate to 18V, then cut the trace feeding the opamp/dac and solder on the lead from the TREAD.

 There also might be an easier way. The mosfet near the bottom of the card may be for regulating the voltage to the opamps, if this is fed from the 5V line, you could lift the leg of the FET and solder a lead from 12V.

 I have done this before on motherboards and videocards for overclocking. And I'd bet DIMM slot power management is more complex than feeding an opamp._

 

Bear in mind also that you have 2 major systems you are testing, the DAC & the ADC. You have the combined noise & distortion of both with the RMAA test if you want to isolate the DAC you will have to go to an external tester which should give substantially better readings of the DAC. The ADC is the weak link in the RMAA tests. The tests I've run on the Elite pro seem to indicate that I'm at the true limit of the ADC which is slightly worse than the DACS spec wise but very very close.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bichi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No, no mistakes...
 - only did the op amp and power cap mods, which is too simple to fek-up. (will not work or have missing channel)
 - what I failed to do is take RMAA measurements prior to doing mod to compare against. (yeah, yeah, sux2bme)
 - to *germanium's* point about "component tolerance" between individual cards, or any mass-produced product, is absolutely true. (ie., Jamicon couple/decouple caps have tolerance of +/- 20%) 
 - only "valid" way to measure performance improvements is using the same card, system, RMAA and mixer settings, etc., before and after. 
 - secondly, I used the newer *LME49860* with Vs range of 2.5~22vdc, instead of 2.5~17vdc and might be out of performance "sweet-spot," relative to older, lower voltage LM4562 or newer LME49720.
 - just for curiosity's sake, might change to LME49720 and do comparison, if I have time. (relative to LME49860)

 Subjectively, I can hear/feel a difference with my simple, "stereo" setup in "tighter bass" and "cleaner highs," compared to original NJM4556.
 - Playback: http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_u...BX5a-main.html_

 

The higher voltage power input yields higher voltage signal out putential & the specs will reflect this in the noise & distortion tests. If one were to give the noise & distortion as a actual voltage instead of a percentage the specs would be very very close indeed no matter what the power supply voltage. The readings as such are taken at such high output levels that they will never see those output voltages in any real usefull design for audio purposes.

 CD output voltage is 2 volts by design
 Most power amps with few exceptions will clip before they reach 2 volt input.

 This is to say the voltage they test at are in fact meaningless to the average consummer. They should measure it at the CD max output voltage of 2 volts if they want to be truely honest with thier measurements. That way the percentage reading would actually mean something to the actuall consummer even if it doesn't make any real difference sound wise.


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The higher voltage power input yields higher voltage signal out putential & the specs will reflect this in the noise & distortion tests. If one were to give the noise & distortion as a actual voltage instead of a percentage the specs would be very very close indeed no matter what the power supply voltage. The readings as such are taken at such high output levels that they will never see those output voltages in any real usefull design for audio purposes.

 CD output voltage is 2 volts by design
 Most power amps with few exceptions will clip before they reach 2 volt input.

 This is to say the voltage they test at are in fact meaningless to the average consummer. They should measure it at the CD max output voltage of 2 volts if they want to be truely honest with thier measurements. That way the percentage reading would actually mean something to the actuall consummer even if it doesn't make any real difference sound wise._

 

Agreed, but thats the art of "specmanship," and if it were standardized, all the "engineers-turned-product/marketing" and "validation engineers" would be out of a job.....

 And it sounds like you have had "analog-engineering" experience and know the "internal" dark secrets of "optimization," which can mean "compromise..." (meaning the ability to handle larger Vsupply range, based on the same "core" amp and its "possible" impact on "best-performance" window, or in a design assessment meeting, where the new-grad engineer mumbles: "but the specs say....")


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bichi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Agreed, but thats the art of "specmanship," and if it were standardized, all the "engineers-turned-product/marketing" and "validation engineers" would be out of a job.....

 And it sounds like you have had "analog-engineering" experience and know the "internal" dark secrets of "optimization," which can mean "compromise..." (meaning the ability to handle larger Vsupply range, based on the same "core" amp and its "possible" impact on "best-performance" window, or in a design assessment meeting, where the new-grad engineer mumbles: "but the specs say....")_

 

Unfortunately none of the above. Just the experiance that comes with age & having been in this hobby since I was young, with exception of the time I was in the foster home of which abuse seemed to be the name of the game & I was at the receiving end of it all. Before that time of my life I was into stereo as early as 7 years old. I went into the foster home when I was 9. I left when I was 19. I wanted to run away many times but didn't know where to go & was afraid that if I was returned to them after having run away things would be even worse for me. I'm 50 now. I've had a chance to see & hear a lot out there & had a friend that was a very high up audio engineer for a while until he passed away a couple of years ago due to cancer. He built one of the most fantastic sounding & accurate zero feedback vacumm tube amps. Unfortunately he had to sell the design to cover medical expenses & passed away shortly thereafter. He never seen it marketed & I don't know who he sold it to though he did tell me at one time.

 Jack sold it to Red Rock Audio. They unfortunatele changed his design considerably from the original. The original was much nicer than the production from Red Rock Audio & a lot less expensive had he been able to market it even though he used much better parts. The output transformers on jacks amps were nearly 2x the size of the Red Rock ones & were wound completely different. There were no taps to speak of on Jacks Amps but plugs that when inserted rewired the connections of the internal windings of the output transformer. The 4 ohm plug actually Split & paralelled the 16ohm windings providing 2X the current capability in the associated windings than a simple 4 ohm tap would ensuring that the winding resistance would not be a factor in the output impedance of the amp. The Red rock amp is way over priced considering Jack before he got sick was going to sell them for 3500 dollars & Red Rock wants almost 39,000 dollars. Let me assure you there is nothing in that amp that justifies the 35,500 dollar increase in price. The parts quality in many cases is lower than Jack used.

 Oops,,,,, I mentioned the would be price of the ATP TA-25 instead of the ATP TA-50 with would have been 7000 dollars. adjusted very very generously for inflation it still would have been less than 10,000 with is still 1/4th of what Red Rock is charging. The ATP TA-50 would have been directly comparable power wise but the parts quality was much much higher on the ATP TA-50 than Red Rocks amp. Unfortunately these models never reached mass production. Only about 5 ATP TA-25s were made & only 2-3 ATP TA-50s were made before Jack became ill.


----------



## LawnGnome

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Bear in mind also that you have 2 major systems you are testing, the DAC & the ADC. You have the combined noise & distortion of both with the RMAA test if you want to isolate the DAC you will have to go to an external tester which should give substantially better readings of the DAC. The ADC is the weak link in the RMAA tests. The tests I've run on the Elite pro seem to indicate that I'm at the true limit of the ADC which is slightly worse than the DACS spec wise but very very close._

 

But that doesn't explain why a better spec'd opamp would lead to lower results.

 A stock card measures better than a card with the upgraded opamp. 

 This leads me to think that the amp stage is more complicated that people expect, and a simple drop in part needs more research.



 The card SHOULD measure better after the opamp upgrade, but it doesn't. The ADC or DAC wont matter, since they stay unchanged.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LawnGnome* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_But that doesn't explain why a better spec'd opamp would lead to lower results.

 A stock card measures better than a card with the upgraded opamp. 

 This leads me to think that the amp stage is more complicated that people expect, and a simple drop in part needs more research.



 The card SHOULD measure better after the opamp upgrade, but it doesn't. The ADC or DAC wont matter, since they stay unchanged._

 

Unfortunately the stock card was never tested by Bichi so we have no clue as to how the actual stock card of his performed in RMAA But then again does it really matter if the sound is better. Again RMAA is no indicator of the actual sound. I no longer have the X-Fi Platinum only the Elite Pro. This he admits himself but the specs that he has provided are in tolerance for a stock card so nothing to really worry about. I can radically change the sound of a card with very little change in the RMAA specs & I have measured wide variances in specs yet very little change in sound.


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_"...I'm 50 now. I've had a chance to see & hear a lot out there & had a friend that was a very high up audio engineer for a while until he passed away a couple of years ago due to cancer..."_

 

An old fart, eh?
 - then you might recognise the "blue" part in the first "size" reference picture.
 - gives you a clue on my age and experience... LOL
 - http://www.esnips.com/doc/1b9968af-0.../X-FI-MOD-000b


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LawnGnome* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_But that doesn't explain why a better spec'd opamp would lead to lower results.
 A stock card measures better than a card with the upgraded opamp. 
 This leads me to think that the amp stage is more complicated that people expect, and a simple drop in part needs more research.
 The card SHOULD measure better after the opamp upgrade, but it doesn't. The ADC or DAC wont matter, since they stay unchanged._

 

Don't get too caught up in "paper" specs and simple RMAA test results.
 - most of the improvements are subjective in nature.
 - too many variables involved.
 - maybe post your RMAA test results for comparison sake?

 Its always assumed, (at least I do), that Creative's design is optimised for a NJM4556.
 - since circuit design details are not known, ie., passive component values governing gain, impedance, freq equalization, etc., there is always risk of causing "undesireable" side effects by a simple "op amp" swap.
 - since I didn't take "reference" RMAA results before doing the mod, I have no "objective" comparision reference to play with.
 - bottom line, it "subjectively" sounds better to me....

 - will probably replace the "line-in" op amp with an LME49860 and might replace coupling caps with "bi-polar" electrolytics
 - have loads of RMAA test results to compare against, based on LME49860
 - just cheap entertainment for me and since it keeps me at home, Wifey is chuffed too...


----------



## LawnGnome

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bichi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_An old fart, eh?
 - then you might recognise the "blue" part in the first "size" reference picture.
 - gives you a clue on my age and experience... LOL
 - http://www.esnips.com/doc/1b9968af-0.../X-FI-MOD-000b




 Don't get too caught up in "paper" specs and simple RMAA test results.
 - most of the improvements are subjective in nature.
 - too many variables involved.
 - maybe post your RMAA test results for comparison sake?

 Its always assumed, (at least I do), that Creative's design is optimised for a NJM4556.
 - since circuit design details are not known, ie., passive component values governing gain, impedance, freq equalization, etc., there is always risk of causing "undesireable" side effects by a simple "op amp" swap.
 - since I didn't take "reference" RMAA results before doing the mod, I have no "objective" comparision reference to play with.
 - bottom line, it "subjectively" sounds better to me....

 - will probably replace the "line-in" op amp with an LME49860 and might replace coupling caps with "bi-polar" electrolytics
 - have loads of RMAA test results to compare against, based on LME49860
 - just cheap entertainment for me and since it keeps me at home, Wifey is chuffed too..._

 

I have a thread of my rmaa results, its a few threads down.

 And the simple fact is, it SHOULD measure better, but its NOT.

 All of this "on paper" stuff like its useless is BS.

 Circuits are built around these data sheets. The data sheets provide the TESTED AND PROVEN performance of a part.

 The opamp you replaced the stock opamp with is TESTED AND PROVEN to electrically perform better. 

 Yet performance decreases with the better spec'd opamp. So either it was damaged during install, or not soldered properly.

 Or the new opamp does not just drop in.


 either way, its extra time and money for a measured downgrade in performance.

 Your results themselves prove this.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bichi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_An old fart, eh?
 - then you might recognise the "blue" part in the first "size" reference picture.
 - gives you a clue on my age and experience... LOL
 - http://www.esnips.com/doc/1b9968af-0.../X-FI-MOD-000b




 Don't get too caught up in "paper" specs and simple RMAA test results.
 - most of the improvements are subjective in nature.
 - too many variables involved.
 - maybe post your RMAA test results for comparison sake?

 Its always assumed, (at least I do), that Creative's design is optimised for a NJM4556.
 - since circuit design details are not known, ie., passive component values governing gain, impedance, freq equalization, etc., there is always risk of causing "undesireable" side effects by a simple "op amp" swap.
 - since I didn't take "reference" RMAA results before doing the mod, I have no "objective" comparision reference to play with.
 - bottom line, it "subjectively" sounds better to me....

 - will probably replace the "line-in" op amp with an LME49860 and might replace coupling caps with "bi-polar" electrolytics
 - have loads of RMAA test results to compare against, based on LME49860
 - just cheap entertainment for me and since it keeps me at home, Wifey is chuffed too..._

 

Of note I decided at the beginning not to change the opamps. I felt that I could get the results I wanted with D.C. coupling & powersupply mods as I have had great success with this in the past. I was not denied either in this case.

 I would not use non polarized caps between the DACs & the opamps as there is a fair D.C. voltage on them & I understand they take a very long time to break in as well. D.C. coupling is a better route in most cases. The D.C. voltage could alter the caps characteristics over time. Non polarized caps are designed to be used situations with very little or no D.C. offset. Polazed caps should have at least a 50% voltage bias on the so they don't go negative on the positive terminal with A.C. signal applied. When D.C. coupling the DACs to the opamps on the X-Fi cards The D.C. cancels out in the opamps so it is not a problem in most cases. 

 The ADC already uses nonpolarized caps but I sugest getting rid of these too as you will see an actual improvement in the signal to noise & distortion in the ADC circuit + sound better.The spec sheet for the ADC tells me that it is not sensitve to D.C. offset & cancels it within the ADC.

 Oops, forgot you arn't talking the Elite pro so do not D.C. couple the lower X-Fi ADCs. The above only applies to the Elite Pro as far as the ADCs are concerned.


----------



## LawnGnome

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Of note I decided at the beginning not to change the opamps. I felt that I could get the results I wanted with D.C. coupling & powersupply mods as I have had great success with this in the past. I was not denied either in this case._

 

This I agree with. 

 I have had measurable increases in SQ even when only changing the power caps on the digital side and for the DAC.

 Test results in my thread.


----------



## trodas

(X-Fi Fatal1ty Sanyo Os-con SEPC 820uF 2,5V for main chip voltage filtering used)

 This attempt not helped me to get rid of the pause bug - eg. pausing and unpausing movie with any player, using AC3 filter 24bit output cause switched channels or terrible noise after unpause.
 Damn.
 Bridging the polymer with 10uF SMD ceramic helped more, but it is still like 50/50 chance to get a pause bug there. Panny FM 470uF with 4,7uF ceramic helped me much more before, damn.


----------



## LawnGnome

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *trodas* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_(X-Fi Fatal1ty Sanyo Os-con SEPC 820uF 2,5V for main chip voltage filtering used)

 This attempt not helped me to get rid of the pause bug - eg. pausing and unpausing movie with any player, using AC3 filter 24bit output cause switched channels or terrible noise after unpause.
 Damn.
 Bridging the polymer with 10uF SMD ceramic helped more, but it is still like 50/50 chance to get a pause bug there. Panny FM 470uF with 4,7uF ceramic helped me much more before, damn._

 

That's the dumbest thing I've seen, 2.5V is no where near what voltage rating is needed. Now 16v is above spec, but you need 6.3v minimum.

 Especially since oscons are sensitive to overvolting.


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_"...I would not use non polarized caps between the DACs & the opamps as there is a fair D.C. voltage on them & I understand they take a very long time to break in as well. D.C. coupling is a better route in most cases. The D.C. voltage could alter the caps characteristics over time. Non polarized caps are designed to be used situations with very little or no D.C. offset. Polazed caps should have at least a 50% voltage bias on the so they don't go negative on the positive terminal with A.C. signal applied. When D.C. coupling the DACs to the opamps on the X-Fi cards The D.C. cancels out in the opamps so it is not a problem in most cases. _

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LawnGnome* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This I agree with. 
 I have had measurable increases in SQ even when only changing the power caps on the digital side and for the DAC.
 Test results in my thread._

 

I should have been more clear...
 - not the polarized DAC facing caps, but the output facing coupling caps for line-out.
 - **oops** looking at the card more carefully, it appears op amp outputs are DC.
 - can't tell if the MOSFETs (J1, 02N) are used as buffers or switches. (mute?) 

 Replaced Line-In, MC33078 (MIC-IN, mono-mode with 1/2 the opamp not used, *not LINE-IN opamp*) with LME49860.
 - this op amp is coupled with bi-polar 10uf @ 16vdc.

 While the card was out...
 - replaced two Jamicon 100uf @ 16vdc (C16, C46) with Panasonic FC 220uf @ 25vdc

 Picture of mod summary, to date:
http://www.esnips.com/doc/b1bf5a95-d.../X-FI-MOD-013b


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *trodas* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_(X-Fi Fatal1ty Sanyo Os-con SEPC 820uF 2,5V for main chip voltage filtering used)_

 

[size=xx-small]Get that 2.5vdc cap off and replace with unit rated at 6.3vdc or more!
 - PCI bus/slot is feeding 5vdc.[/size]

 EDIT:
**wait one* 
 - trodas* might have a point....
 - the TI PS54352 is a switching down-regulator, 5vdc in, with an output of 1.2vdc.
 - so the 2.5vdc he installed might be ok, depending on which side of the regulator its on.
 - will have to yank and look at card again.....

 EDIT 2:
 - *trodas* is either lucky or knows what he's doing. (guessing the latter...)
*- [size=medium]C177 is on the 1.2vdc side of the down-regulator![/size]*
 - measured, card installed and powered-up, across C177, with Fluke 8012A
 - thanks for the new data!

_Texas Instruments PS54352:
http://www.ti.com/lit/gpn/tps54352_


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bichi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I should have been more clear...
 - not the polarized DAC facing caps, but the output facing coupling caps for line-out.
 - **oops** looking at the card more carefully, it appears op amp outputs are DC.
 - can't tell if the MOSFETs (J1, 02N) are used as buffers or switches. (mute?) 

 Replaced Line-In, MC33078 with LME49860.
 - not much effect on RMAA tests.
 - this op amp is coupled with bi-polar 10uf @ 16vdc.
 - will have to test with live recordings, some future date.

 While the card was out...
 - replaced two Jamicon 100uf @ 16vdc (C16, C46) with Panasonic FC 220uf @ 25vdc

 Picture of mod summary, to date:
http://www.esnips.com/doc/375f3914-8.../X-FI-MOD-013b_

 

The nonpolarized caps might be line in coupling caps. Check the voltages on them. If there is substantial voltage do not remove if very little the Direct couple it. I can't see you picture clearle enough to determine which are polar & which are nonpolar caps.


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The nonpolarized caps might be line in coupling caps. Check the voltages on them. If there is substantial voltage do not remove if very little the Direct couple it. I can't see you picture clearle enough to determine which are polar & which are nonpolar caps._

 

eh?
 - they are line-in coupling caps, as stated in post above.
 - its a cluster of 4, non-polarized caps, most likely for L+R "line-in/mic-in" and L+R "aux-in"
 - will most likely leave those alone for now...

 ps: recognize the "blue" transistor in pix?


----------



## LawnGnome

Anybody know the voltage swing the bypass caps face?


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bichi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 ps: recognize the "blue" transistor in pix?_

 

Not for sure.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LawnGnome* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anybody know the voltage swing the bypass caps face?_

 

Bypasses on the powersupply caps don't see much of any voltage swing. They do see fair amount of current swing though That is what makes my bypasses have such an effect on the sound as the signal has a lower impedance supply to return to.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bichi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_eh?
 - they are line-in coupling caps, as stated in post above.
 - its a cluster of 4, non-polarized caps, most likely for L+R "line-in/mic-in" and L+R "aux-in"
 - will most likely leave those alone for now...

 ps: recognize the "blue" transistor in pix?_

 

After some research it appears to be an early Raytheon germanium transistor. Almost all of the early transistors of that period were germanium. Silicone came out in the second half of the 1950-1960 decade. It was germanium transistor failure rate that put Scott out of business. They couln't handle the back electromotive force generated when there was a poor connection at the speaker causing a flash voltage when a crossover coil suddenly discharged at the breaking of contact. Germanium transistors could really only survive well when they seen less than 50 volts across them. Ideally 35 volts max. This made for very low powered amplifiers by todays standards. One advantage germanium has though is very low forward voltage drop which can be beneficial in low voltage digital electronics. Germanium is used in newer processors to stretch the silicone molecules allowing the silicone to take on a lower foward voltage higher current characteristic of germanium without some of the drawbacks of germanium. This allowed higher switching speeds.


----------



## LawnGnome

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Bypasses on the powersupply caps don't see much of any voltage swing. They do see fair amount of current swing though That is what makes my bypasses have such an effect on the sound as the signal has a lower impedance supply to return to._

 

Whoops, meant coupling caps. I have 6.3v oscons.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LawnGnome* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Whoops, meant coupling caps. I have 6.3v oscons._

 

They have about 2.5 volts D.C. on them & I have measuered .5 volt swing on them but that was tith music not a test signal so it is probably double that. 6.3 volt caps would be safe in that scenerio. May be a good option if you don't want to D.C. couple them. I personally have not had any problem with D.C. coupling though as the D.C. though not very very low is atill at a safe level for most equipment that a computer soundcard is likely to see.


----------



## bichi

FYI:
 - two interesting articles on coupling caps, between DACs, op amps and general cap apps in audio engineering.
 - doing an engineering "refresh" on audio freq coupling methods, before attacking more fun with X-FI.

 Choose capacitor types to optimize PC sound quality
http://www.edn.com/index.asp?layout=...leid=CA6430345

 Capacitor Characteristics (Audio Applications)
http://sound.westhost.com/articles/capacitors.htm

 ps:
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_After some research it appears to be an early Raytheon germanium transistor. Almost all of the early transistors of that period were germanium..._

 

yep, Raytheon CK722
 - rare, nowadays...
 - thought you might know it off the top of yer head, considering your nickname...
 - father was with embassy corps and lived in a few foreign countries, growing up.
 - was "fekked," being a kid, reading Popular Electronics and trying build projects.
 - try buying a CK722 in Brazil, in 1962...
 - have collected quite a few old, germanium transistors, over the past years and use a "potted" one when interviewing new-grads seeking employment, along with an old 6L6 tube....
 - still build one-of-a-kind "fuzz-boxes" with old, 2N404 germaniums for musicians.
 - CK722 Museum: http://www.ck722museum.com/


----------



## LawnGnome

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bichi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_FYI:
 - two interesting articles on coupling caps, between DACs, op amps and general cap apps in audio engineering.
 - doing an engineering "refresh" on audio freq coupling methods, before attacking more fun with X-FI.

 Choose capacitor types to optimize PC sound quality
http://www.edn.com/index.asp?layout=...leid=CA6430345

 Capacitor Characteristics (Audio Applications)
http://sound.westhost.com/articles/capacitors.htm
_

 


 Great links.

 Also, here is something for the people who love to attach boutique capacitors, and allow long leads to get them to fit.

  Quote:


 With a 1uF cap (hardly massive), a mere 10mm of lead length (6nH) creates a series resonant circuit at close to 2MHz. Increase the capacitance to 10,000uF, and it is now 20kHz.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LawnGnome* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Great links.

 Also, here is something for the people who love to attach boutique capacitors, and allow long leads to get them to fit._

 

I'm not a fan of boutique capacitors as many underperform when compared to a good milspec cap. I had a tube amp that had MIT Multicap capacitors for coupling & I had a problem of shifting bias current that was causing the tubes to overheat. This amp came from the factory with these caps. I suffered through this for some months then finally figured out it was the boutique caps that was causing this. I replaced them with milspec Sprague brand Orange drop film foil caps. The leakage stopped through the caps & the bias became rock stable & the amp sounded much much better to boot.


----------



## bichi

Got a hold of a "free" X-FI ExtremeGamer, SB0703, installed in second machine, P5W64 WS Pro, QX6700 @ 3.0g.
 - Creative X-FI Driver: v5.12.6.1187, dated 08/17/06. (same driver used in P5WDH, Q6700 @ 3.0g, running X-FI SB0460)
 - both machines running XP Pro SP2
 - RMAA v6.0.5 (exe dated: 06/01/07)

 - same NJR4556 for Line-Out (smaller package) and same TI M33078 for MIC-IN, as SB0460. 
 - caps are a combo of G-Luxon 604H(M), Jamicon SS, WinCap SM.
 - DC converter cap is G-Luxon 605B(M), 220uf @ 25vdc, 105c.

 - has the same sonic quality of pre-mod SB0460, _"muddy" bass with "harsh, low energy, tinny" highs._
 - RMAA results of stock, SB0703, both 44k/16b and 96k/24b posted below.

 - plan to update with lower Vs (+/-17vdc), LME49720 as opposed to previously used LME49860.
 - update DC converter cap to same Panasonic FK, 1500uf @ 16vdc.

*Stock: 44khz / 16b*
http://www.esnips.com/doc/84ea4532-4...I-MOD-015b-XFG

*Stock: 96khz / 24b*
http://www.esnips.com/doc/16c3f3df-1...I-MOD-016b-XFG


*RMAA tests done by Creative, with RMAA v5.5:*
http://audio.rightmark.org/downloads...MAA%20v5.5.pdf
 - as additional comparison reference, prior to modifications:

*44/16*
http://www.esnips.com/doc/dbcedbb4-8...I-MOD-018b-XFG

*96/24*
http://www.esnips.com/doc/3d339799-6...I-MOD-017b-XFG 

 X-FI SB0703 (ExtremeGamer)
http://www.esnips.com/doc/25625c6e-c...I-MOD-014b-XFG


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bichi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Got a hold of a "free" X-FI ExtremeGamer, SB0703, installed in second machine, P5W64 WS Pro, QX6700 @ 3.0g.
 - Creative X-FI Driver: v5.12.6.1187, dated 08/17/06. (same driver used in P5WDH, Q6700 @ 3.0g, running X-FI SB0460)
 - both machines running XP Pro SP2
 - RMAA v6.0.5 (exe dated: 06/01/07)

 - same NJR4556 for Line-Out (smaller package) and same TI M33078 for Line-In as SB0460. 
 - caps are a combo of G-Luxon 604H(M), Jamicon SS, WinCap SM.
 - DC converter cap is G-Luxon 605B(M), 220uf @ 25vdc, 105c.

 - has the same sonic quality of pre-mod SB0460, "muddy" bass with "harsh, low energy, tinny" highs.
 - RMAA results of stock, SB0703, both 44k/16b and 96k/24b posted below.

 - plan to update with lower Vs (+/-17vdc), LME49720 as opposed to previously used LME49860.
 - update DC converter cap to same Panasonic FK, 1500uf @ 16vdc.

*44khz / 16b*
http://www.esnips.com/doc/84ea4532-4...I-MOD-015b-XFG

*96khz / 24b*
http://www.esnips.com/doc/16c3f3df-1...I-MOD-016b-XFG

 X-FI SB0703 (ExtremeGamer)
http://www.esnips.com/doc/25625c6e-c...I-MOD-014b-XFG_

 

Your sound assesment agrees with mine. good portion of the treble defects solved with D.C. coupling here. The rest was bypassing the power sypply caps near the DAC for me. No opamp change reqired at my end here. 

 By the way I like to say you gave an excellent tutoriial though if someone did want to chng the opamps though


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LawnGnome* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_But that doesn't explain why a better spec'd opamp would lead to lower results.

 A stock card measures better than a card with the upgraded opamp. 

 This leads me to think that the amp stage is more complicated that people expect, and a simple drop in part needs more research.



 The card SHOULD measure better after the opamp upgrade, but it doesn't. The ADC or DAC wont matter, since they stay unchanged._

 

Some of the things that might explain a possable reason for lower performance of the "better" part is the "better" part was designed to work with 600 or more ohms at the output. This resistance needs to be as close to the output of the opamp as possable to shield it from excessive capacitance that it might see with the cabling. This is if indeed there is a decrease in performance specwise compared to his card stock.

 The X-Fi soundcards are designed to be able to drive headphones through the line-out & as a consequence do not have the required resistance for the "beter" opamp to work into so the 'better" opamp is being stressed beyond it's capabilities current wise hence an increase in distortion is possable. The opamp that came with the X-Fi was designed to be able to drive headphones at least at modest levels so the sensitivity to capacitance in the cabling may be less than the "better" part.

 This is one of the primary reasons I didn't change my opamps out. The other is I didn't have the confidence to be able to do the job myself in this regard though after reading Bichi's excellent tutorial I do believe I could have done it, but I'm not going to for the first reason.


----------



## bichi

Updated post #1096 above
 - added RMAA v5.5 tests done by Creative as additional "pre-mod" references.
 - note test result deviations, but all within nominal "tolerance-stackup" ranges.
 - (technical deviations are less than .01%, on average, which are excellent, given mass-produced, consumer grade audio)
 - but the real object is to improve "subjective" audio quality, or at least "con" ourselves into "feeling," the improvements are real....
 - loads of afternoon fun and worth the entertainment value, eh?

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_"...This is one of the primary reasons I didn't change my opamps out. The other is I didn't have the confidence to be able to do the job myself in this regard though after reading Bichi's excellent tutorial I do believe I could have done it, but I'm not going to for the first reason...."_

 

- chicken****! (LOL)
 - I've got 5yrs on yer butt and still did it....


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bichi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Updated post #1096 above
 - added RMAA v5.5 tests done by Creative as additional "pre-mod" references.
 - note test result deviations, but all within nominal "tolerance-stackup" ranges.
 - (technical deviations are less than .001%, on average, which are excellent, given mass-produced, consumer grade audio)
 - but the real object is to improve "subjective" audio quality, or at least "con" ourselves into "feeling," the improvements are real....
 - loads of afternoon fun and worth the entertainment value, eh?_

 

Believe me if the mods are good mods the improvement is not a con, they are real. By the way I dicided to go back & rebypass the +&- 12 volt caps on the Elite Pro & ran the tests again . I found the the bypasses reduced IM distortion above 15KHz. It dropped from -102db to -106db but only above 15KHz. The sound is slightly brighter as I reported before but I'm finding it livable for a time till I can get bigger metalyzed film bypass caps. Something on the order of 10uf. Right now it is only 3.3uf on each. This should solidify the bass more & have more body throughout the spectrum without losing the beautifull detail I now have. The detail & soundstage is excellent especially with the bypasses on the +/- 12volt rails.

 No, not chicken**** but still not going to do it for the first reason. If I was chicken I wouldn't have done any mods but then I couldn't live with myself knowing there was more potential.


----------



## germanium

Looked at Creatives RMAA results for my card & mine are exacly the same in frequency response & all distortion specs. I get more than 3db better signal to noise & dynamic range. My noise spectrum in the distortion tests are radically cleaner looking. In the THD graph my second harmonic distortion is higher but everything else is lower. Thier IMD is a quite a bit higher than mine above 20Khz. This could be audible as IMD products tend get dumped back into the audible range. My stereo seperation is better by a lot, 10db in fact.

 Thanks for the link to Creatives tests Bichi.


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_"...Believe me if the mods are good mods the improvement is not a con, they are real. By the way I dicided to go back & rebypass the +&- 12 volt caps on the Elite Pro & ran the tests again . I found the the bypasses reduced IM distortion above 15KHz. It dropped from -102db to -106db but only above 15KHz. The sound is slightly brighter as I reported before but I'm finding it livable for a time till I can get bigger metalyzed film bypass caps. Something on the order of 10uf. Right now it is only 3.3uf on each. This should solidify the bass more & have more body throughout the spectrum without losing the beautifull detail I now have. The detail & soundstage is excellent especially with the bypasses on the +/- 12volt rails._

 

- damn bastid! What started out as a "quicky" is turning into a project.
 - might have to slap in a PCI extender and probe around with scope...
 - (nagging thoughts, back of head, about possible ringing at upper freqs with wider-band op amp, inside unknown circuit design)
 - at the "obsessive" end, might have to buy/build SOIC socket/flipchips and try different op amps (have AD8599s staring at me)

 Yeah, DC supply impulse performance is another curiosity.
 - but do agree with Cyril Bateman's and Rod Elliott's theories on parallel power-cap bypassing and will probably replace with larger values, as opposed to adding smaller bypass caps across larger valued caps.
 - counter-intuitive to me, since my standard practice is to add 1uf tantalum power bypass, close to target chip and/or local DC regulator, in the digital world...

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_[size=xx-small]"...No, not chicken**** but still not going to do it for the first reason. If I was chicken I wouldn't have done any mods but then I couldn't live with myself knowing there was more potential...[/size]_

 

[size=xx-small]
 - so you let me be the "sacrificial" rat-boi, eh?
 - still think yer a chicken-poo, LOL! (its much easier with solder-paste with SOIC sized parts, than with wire solder...)
 - I see yer located in Tukwila. Might have to look you up, next time I'm at Microsoft campus...
 - prime rib dinner, on me, IF you bring your X-FI with modded SOIC op amp...[/size]


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bichi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_- damn bastid! What started out as a "quicky" is turning into a project.
 - might have to slap in a PCI extender and probe around with scope...
 - (nagging thoughts, back of head, about possible ringing at upper freqs with wider-band op amp, inside unknown circuit design)
 - at the "obsessive" end, might have to buy/build SOIC socket/flipchips and try different op amps (have AD8599s staring at me)

 Yeah, DC supply impulse performance is another curiosity.
 - but do agree with Cyril Bateman's and Rod Elliott's theories on parallel power-cap bypassing and will probably replace with larger values, as opposed to adding smaller bypass caps across larger valued caps.
 - counter-intuitive to me, since my standard practice is to add 1uf tantalum power bypass, close to target chip and/or local DC regulator, in the digital world..._

 

Larger electrolytics are counterproductive generally I've found but bigger bypasses with metalyzed film works wonders for me every time. Note in the post above that my IMD is lowered compared to stock especially above 15KHz. Even below 15KHz it is slightly better. Bigger electrolytics may actually increase IMD in this case unless it is a stacked electrolytic & these are very expensive & usually quite large & industrial. Too large for this application. Polymer electrolytics may help though. They are claimed by Sanyo to have near metalyzed film properties.

 You should at least try the bypass method, It is easily reversed unlike the opamp swap.


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_"...Polymer electrolytics may help though. They are claimed by Sanyo to have near metalyzed film properties..."_

 

Agreed
 - only consideration for me was low-ESR, solid electrolytic types, possibly at higher wvdc for lower res freqs, if physical size remains reasonable....
 - will have to compare results, now that we have a common, third-party standard.
 - caps and bypass only, compared with op amp, no-bypass and larger value, power cap solid electrolytics

 For my information:
 - what X-FI driver version?
 - OS?
 - RMAA rev?
 - MB model, processor and speed?
 - PSU?


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bichi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Agreed
 - only consideration for me was low-ESR, solid electrolytic types, possibly at higher wvdc for lower res freqs, if physical size remains reasonable....
 - will have to compare results, now that we have a common, third-party standard.
 - caps and bypass only, compared with op amp, no-bypass and larger value, power cap solid electrolytics

 For my information:
 - what X-FI driver version?
 - OS?
 - RMAA rev?
 - MB model, processor and speed?
 - PSU?_

 

2_13_0012 
 Windows Vista Ultimate 64 bit version on 750GB RAID 0 drive. I also have Windows XP sp2 on a 400GB RAID 0 drive.
 RMAA 6.05
 Abit AB9Pro, Core2Duo E6600 overclocked to 3.006 GHZ & 4GB memory.
 Pure power 480

 By the way I have the Elite Pro which is a different card altogether than you have. Different DACs & ADCs


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_2_13_0012 
 Windows Vista Ultimate 64 bit version.
 RMAA 6.05
 Abit AB9Pro, Core2Duo E6600 overclocked to 3.006 GHZ & 4GB memory.
 Pure power 480_

 

More additional work for me....
 - will have install Vista 64 Ultimate so our tests are "apples-apples..."
 - don't know for sure, but rumors say Vista series have "cleaner" audio core than XP SP2?

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_By the way I have the Elite Pro which is a different card altogether than you have. Different DACs & ADCs_

 

- yep, assumed that to be the case from your past posts... SB0550, right?


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bichi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_More additional work for me....
 - will have install Vista 64 Ultimate so our tests are "apples-apples..."
 - don't know for sure, but rumors say Vista series have "cleaner" audio core than XP SP2?_

 

Makes no difference though if you use the bit perfect playback option though but yes it is cleaner than XP sp2. You can also control the core sample rate in Windows Vista but make sure that both the recording & the playback are the same sample rate or you will see massive degradation. Test with RMAA only in music creation mode or you could pay the price of crashing window sound & have to reinstall the driver like I had to once. Test will not work at all in entertainment mode & Mine crashed the driver in gaming mode.


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Makes no difference though if you use the bit perfect playback option though but yes it is cleaner than XP sp2. You can also control the core sample rate in Windows Vista but make sure that both the recording & the playback are the same sample rate or you will see massive degradation. Test with RMAA only in music creation mode or you could pay the price of crashing window sound & have to reinstall the driver like I had to once. Test will not work at all in entertainment mode & Mine crashed the driver in gaming mode._

 

Interesting info, thanks...
 - no "audio creation" mode, eh?
 - all my RMAA tests were done in "audio-creation" mode, with all effects "off"
 - off to dinner and maybe some more X-FI fun, later this evening...


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bichi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_More additional work for me....
 - will have install Vista 64 Ultimate so our tests are "apples-apples..."
 - don't know for sure, but rumors say Vista series have "cleaner" audio core than XP SP2?



 - yep, assumed that to be the case from your past posts... SB0550, right?_

 

My tests come out exactly the same in windows Vista & Windows XP sp2 if the bit perfect box is checked but radically worse in XPsp2 if not. 

 Doesn't list the model number in Windows Vista but yes that is the card.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bichi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Interesting info, thanks...
 - no "audio creation" mode, eh?
 - all my RMAA tests were done in "audio-creation" mode, with all effects "off"
 - off to dinner and maybe some more X-FI fun, later this evening..._

 

Audio creation is what I meant, sorry. I was just trying the different modes but audio creation did in fact work.

 Have a good dinner ok.


----------



## bichi

X-FI SB0730 (compact) ExtremeGamer:
 - replaced G-Luxon 220uf @ 25vdc with Panasonic FK, 1500uf @ 16vdc (C164)
 - will not be able to change NJR4556 (SSOP) with LME4920; 49860 or AD8599 (SOIC)
 - SSOP vs SOIC package size difference: http://www.esnips.com/doc/9da5669f-0...I-MOD-019b-XFG)
 - M33078 is not Line-In, but MIC-IN.

 - short "subjective" listening: bass definition less "muddy" and improved highs, but still "tinny.."

 RMAA v6.0.5 test results:
 - cap change only:
 44/16: http://www.esnips.com/doc/7e3d3920-5...I-MOD-020b-XFG
 96/24: http://www.esnips.com/doc/9d981375-3...I-MOD-021b-XFG

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Audio creation is what I meant, sorry. I was just trying the different modes but audio creation did in fact work. Have a good dinner ok._

 

- ahhh, right - had me worried there for a sec.....


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bichi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_X-FI SB0703 (compact) ExtremeGamer:
 - replaced G-Luxon 220uf @ 25vdc with Panasonic FK, 1500uf @ 16vdc (C164)
 - will not be able to change NJR4556 (SSOP) with LME4920; 49860 or AD8599 (SOIC)
 - SSOP vs SOIC package size difference: http://www.esnips.com/doc/9da5669f-0...I-MOD-019b-XFG)
 - might replace Line-In M33078 with LME49860, just for comparison sake, later date...

 - short "subjective" listening: bass definition less "muddy" and improved highs, but still "tinny.."

 RMAA v6.0.5 test results:
 - cap change only:
 44/16: http://www.esnips.com/doc/7e3d3920-5...I-MOD-020b-XFG
 96/24: http://www.esnips.com/doc/9d981375-3...I-MOD-021b-XFG



 - ahhh, right - had me worried there for a sec....._

 

Sound with coupling caps shorted & power supply caps bypassed with metalyzed films is vibrant & lively. Cymbles have natural shimmer & body, not weak, harsh & tinny sounding at all like stock. High frequency sounds are brought out better without sounding harsh or out of place. Some sounds near the top of the hearing range may be heard for the first time as they now have sufficient energy. This in spite of no appearant change in actual frequency response according to RMAA. Bass is rock solid but with ambiance not heard before. This can still be improved apon with bigger bypasses on the +/- 12 volt caps. Very open sounding mids with lots of ambiance extraction from recording which seemed lacking in stock card. This gives the modded card a huge advantage in the creation of a huge believable soundstage with lots of depth both projected forward & back up to 50 feet behind the speakers.

 You will not likely see huge differences or even small ones with your card in distortion or noise specs on the any card except the Elite Pro as the limiting factor on the lower cards is the ADC. Specs on everything except on the noise will not change much even on the Elite Pro except the spectrum analysis of the vaious tests for noise & distortion looks much better on the modded Elite Pro. Noise specs improve by about 3db or more on modded Elite Pro. The lower cards ADC seems to be limited to 16 to 17 bits resolution even though they do put out 24 bit word length data. The Elite Pro on the other hand has ADCs that truly have near 24 bit resolution & specs that at least suggest 20 bit resolution. Only in the spectum analysis can you see the true 24 bit like noise level on the Elite Pro especially through the critical midband where noise hovers around the -150db mark when modded, before it hovered in the -145db range but with a fair amout of spikes going up into the -130db range as can be seen in creative tests. The modded card has absolutely no spikes at all in the critical midrange or top end until you get past 20 KHz & then only one or 2 spikes that goes up to about -138db. The rest is clean all the way up to 44KHz.

 This goes to show that specs can be very very misleading considering the very small changes in specs but the total revamping of the audible results.


----------



## hyyam85

does anyone know if I hardwire a DIP8 socket on to where the SMT opamp should be, will that affect the sound quality (due to the length of the wire)?


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hyyam85* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_does anyone know if I hardwire a DIP8 socket on to where the SMT opamp should be, will that affect the sound quality (due to the length of the wire)?_

 

Not recommended as it would be too easy to damage the solder pads when changing the opamps out & sound quality issues not limited to lenth of wire as soldering direct to the board makes a much better connection.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bichi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_- damn bastid! 


 [size=xx-small]
 - so you let me be the "sacrificial" rat-boi, eh?
 - still think yer a chicken-poo, LOL! (its much easier with solder-paste with SOIC sized parts, than with wire solder...)
 [/size]_

 

No one forced you to change the opamps & I for one have never advocated it. My feeling is that there are other much more revealing mods than the opamp mods alone.


----------



## holland

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sound with coupling caps shorted & power supply caps bypassed with metalyzed films is vibrant & lively._

 

Sorry, just catching up on this thread after a couple of months, so if this question is redundant forgive me. What do you mean by bypassing the power supply caps?

 When you say bypassing, do you mean running the 3.3uf in parallel to the 220uf power cap, for instance?


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *holland* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sorry, just catching up on this thread after a couple of months, so if this question is redundant forgive me. What do you mean by bypassing the power supply caps?

 When you say bypassing, do you mean running the 3.3uf in parallel to the 220uf power cap, for instance?_

 

Yes that is exactly what I mean, I found though that it is better to bypass the caps that power the opamps than the one by the DSP chip.


----------



## holland

That's interesting. Which cap did you use? I did a quick search and haven't turned up anything with a small enough lead spacing. Would SMD tantalum caps be good?

 So, it's an increase in total capacitance to 103.3uf but I'm not sure how the different materials of the 3.3uf cap act with 100uf electrolytic.

 Do you have an understanding of what's happening? If so, would you mind explaining it to me?

 Thanks.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *holland* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's interesting. Which cap did you use? I did a quick search and haven't turned up anything with a small enough lead spacing. Would SMD tantalum caps be good?

 So, it's an increase in total capacitance to 103.3uf but I'm not sure how the different materials of the 3.3uf cap act with 100uf electrolytic.

 Do you have an understanding of what's happening? If so, would you mind explaining it to me?

 Thanks._

 

I used polyester metalyzed film. They had long leads from the factory so I was able to cut them down to what I needed & bend the leads to get the spacing.

 Metalyzed film caps have lower ESR & much lower dielectric absorbsion than electrolytics do but they are huge for the amount of capacitance you get out of them. Used in combination with the electrolytic cap can significantly lower the impedance in the power supply & provide a better return path for the signal ground. Most people don't think of the powersupply being in the signal path but it *IS* in a vast majority of transistor amps. All signal must return to the power supply so the lower the impedance the better & the less the dielectric absorbsion the better. There are other factor that may contribute too as metalyzed films I use are noninductive & have frequency capabilities well into the MHz. Electrolytics are generall inductively wound internally & hence are far from a perfect capacitor.


----------



## bichi

Going run down a different path, not going to accept the "classic" power cap, "paralleling" with smaller cap just yet...
 - the math just does not work out... (also ref Rod Elliott's article, page 14, Figure 11)
 - to be clear, the only reason I use RMAA is to detect any radical changes from it's "spec'd" behavior, not it's "sonic" quality.
 - achieved improved lows and cleaner highs, at least for my taste, with no coupling cap changes or shunting power caps, but with faster slewing op amp and increasing power filter cap values. (C16, C47 and C177)

 Took the time to read Cirrus Logic CS4382 datasheet, Eval board description and Filter App Note:
 - datasheet, page 4, I can see I am still well within the DAC's performance tolerances.
 - datasheet, page 38, figure 42, shows the "recommended" output "filter/buffer" and can better "guess" at Creative's design.
 - datasheet, page 13, figure 6, note VD, VA, VLS, VLC DC inputs and how they "typically" treat power bypass.
 - traced VD, VA on a SB0703 and appears 10uf @ 16vdc polar electrolytics are installed. (C91, C119)
 - of interest to me is FLIT+ (C107, 47uf) and VQ (C108, 10uf) functions and the capacitor "network" they show, relative to ground. (will leave those alone for now)
 - cannot tell how VLS is wired and related cap(s) (could be C43, C16?)

 As an experiment, will replace C91 and C119 with 6.8uf @ 25vdc tantalums (parts on hand, otherwise, 4.7uf)
 - will post back results in a few hours.
 (modified card is sounding wonderful at this point, not sure why any more modifications are needed, except for curiosity's sake....)

_*REFS and Remedial reading:*
 Capacitor Characteristics: (Audio Applications, Rod Elliott)
http://sound.westhost.com/articles/capacitors.htm

 Cirrus Logic CS4382 datasheet, Eval board description and Filter Design App Note:
http://www.cirrus.com/en/products/pro/detail/P223.html

 AVX TAP Technical Summary & Application Guidelines:
http://www.avxcorp.com/docs/Catalogs/techsuml.pdf

 Electronic Power Supplies: (page 141)
 Irving M Gottlieb - ISBN0-8306-8540-5

 Art of Electronics: (Chapter 7)
 Paul Horowitz; Windfield Hill - ISBN 0-521-37095-7_

 ps: *Gemanium*
 - got yer note and will PM back info


----------



## germanium

You will notice in the spec sheet that the power caps are already bypassed with .1uf. All I'm doing is increasing that by a huge margin so that it can benefit the whole audio spectrum. Also you will notice that the DAC is rated fo 114db signal to noise & dynamic range. The ADC is limiting the ability to read that spec & so dynamic range is way out of spec due to the ADC.


----------



## bichi

Current Changed List (SB0460):
 - LME49860 (Line In and Out)
 - C177: Panasonic FK, 1500uf @ 16vdc from Jamicon WL 220uf @ 16vdc
 - C16, C46: Panasonic FC, 220uf @ 25vdc from Jamicon SS 100uf @ 16vdc
 - C91, C119: 6.8uf @ 25vdc tant from Wincap 10uf @ 16vdc

*RMAA v6.0.5 results vs., Creative RMAA v5.5, after Cirrus Logic DAC, VA, VC +DC bypass cap change to tantalum:*

*24b/96k*
 Frequency response (from 40 Hz to 15 kHz), dB +0.01, -0.07 (Creative: +0.02,-0.17)
 Noise level, dB (A) -100.8 (Creative: -102.2)
 Dynamic range, dB (A) 100.8 (Creative: 102.0) (Cirrus DAC: 111 typ)
 THD, % 0.0016 (Creative: 0.0008)
 THD + Noise, dB (A) -91.2 (Creative: n/a) (Cirrus DAC: -100, 0db)
 IMD + Noise, % 0.0030 (Creative: 0.0025)
 Stereo crosstalk, dB -97.1 (Creative: -98.6)
 IMD at 10 kHz, % 0.0057 (Creative: 0.0052)
 General performance: Excellent (for both)

*16b/44k*
 Frequency response (from 40 Hz to 15 kHz), dB +0.01, -0.08 (Creative: +0.02, -0.08)
 Noise level, dB (A) -93.9 (Creative: -94.1)
 Dynamic range, dB (A) 93.8  (Creative: 94.0) (Cirrus DAC: 94 typ)
 THD, % 0.0016 (Creative: 0.0009)
 THD + Noise, dB (A) -86.8 (Creative: n/a) (Cirrus DAC: -94, 0db)
 IMD + Noise, % 0.0059 (Creative: 0.0057)
 Stereo crosstalk, dB -94.8 (Creative: -97.0)
 IMD at 10 kHz, % 0.0080 (Creative: n/a)
 General performance: Excellent (Creative: n/a)

*Subjective Listen Tests:*
 - much tighter bass definition, less "muddy/boom."
 - clearer, well defined highs with better definition, without "shattering, tinny-ness."

*Mods with greatest "sonic" improvement:*
 - C177 cap value increase
 - LME49860 change

*Mods not as obvious, sonically:*
 - C16, C46 changes (op amp power source)
 - C91, C119 tantalum changes (CS4382 DAC power input, VA and VD)

 Probed around with oscope, looking for any unexpected ringing, between 20khz to 10mhz
 - nothing unusual found 

 Appears LME49860 (or LM4562, LME49720) opens frequency response range and is technically measurable.
 C177 cap value increase appears to "clean-up" lows and highs. Not too sure about DAC VA/VD (C91, C119) cap changes to tantalum yet, need to listen for a few days...

 Gotta get some dinner now, before it's all gone....

 PICS:
 Cap Change: http://www.esnips.com/doc/4e51b1cf-3.../X-FI-MOD-022b
 44k/16b: http://www.esnips.com/doc/94f9b2d7-9.../X-FI-MOD-023b
 96k/24b: http://www.esnips.com/doc/fe9e0802-2.../X-FI-MOD-024b


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bichi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Current Changed List (SB0460):
 - LME49860 (Line In and Out)
 - C177: Panasonic FK, 1500uf @ 16vdc from Jamicon WL 220uf @ 16vdc
 - C16, C46: Panasonic FC, 220uf @ 25vdc from Jamicon SS 100uf @ 16vdc
 - C91, C119: 6.8uf @ 25vdc tant from Wincap 10uf @ 16vdc

*RMAA v6.0.5 results vs., Creative RMAA v5.5, after Cirrus Logic DAC, VA, VC +DC bypass cap change to tantalum:*

*24b/96k*
 Frequency response (from 40 Hz to 15 kHz), dB +0.01, -0.07 (Creative: +0.02,-0.17)
 Noise level, dB (A) -100.8 (Creative: -102.2)
 Dynamic range, dB (A) 100.8 (Creative: 102.0)
 THD, % 0.0016 (Creative: 0.0008)
 THD + Noise, dB (A) -91.2 (Creative: n/a)
 IMD + Noise, % 0.0030 (Creative: 0.0025)
 Stereo crosstalk, dB -97.1 (Creative: -98.6)
 IMD at 10 kHz, % 0.0057 (Creative: 0.0052)
 General performance: Excellent (for both)

*16b/44k*
 Frequency response (from 40 Hz to 15 kHz), dB +0.01, -0.08 (Creative: +0.02, -0.08)
 Noise level, dB (A) -93.9 (Creative: -94.1)
 Dynamic range, dB (A) 93.8 (Creative: 94.0)
 THD, % 0.0016 (Creative: 0.0009)
 THD + Noise, dB (A) -86.8 (Creative: n/a)
 IMD + Noise, % 0.0059 (Creative: 0.0057)
 Stereo crosstalk, dB -94.8 (Creative: -97.0)
 IMD at 10 kHz, % 0.0080 (Creative: n/a)
 General performance: Excellent (Creative: n/a)

*Subjective Listen Tests:*
 - much tighter bass definition, less "muddy/boom."
 - clearer, well defined highs with better definition, without "shattering, tinny-ness."

*Mods with greatest "sonic" improvement:*
 - C177 cap value increase
 - LME49860 change

*Mods not as obvious, sonically:*
 - C16, C46 changes
 - C91, C119 tant changes

 Probed around with oscope, looking for any unexpected ringing, between 20khz to 10mhz
 - nothing unusual found 

 Appears LME49860 (or LM4562, LME49720) opens frequency response range and is technically measurable.
 C177 cap value increase appears to "clean-up" lows and highs. Not too sure about DAC VA/VD (C91, C119) cap changes to tantalum yet, need to listen for a few days...

 Gotta get some dinner now, before it's all gone....

 PICS:
 Cap Change: http://www.esnips.com/doc/4e51b1cf-3.../X-FI-MOD-022b
 44k/16b: http://www.esnips.com/doc/94f9b2d7-9.../X-FI-MOD-023b
 96k/24b: http://www.esnips.com/doc/fe9e0802-2.../X-FI-MOD-024b_

 

All your tests are within a margin of error & may improve very slightly with more time the computer is booted so of no particular concern. How does the spectrum analysis look though or did you compare those?


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You will notice in the spec sheet that the power caps are already bypassed with .1uf. All I'm doing is increasing that by a huge margin so that it can benefit the whole audio spectrum. Also you will notice that the DAC is rated fo 114db signal to noise & dynamic range. The ADC is limiting the ability to read that spec & so dynamic range is way out of spec due to the ADC._

 

Yes, well aware of what Cirrus Logic suggests and tracing SB0460, Creative implemented the same "parallel-bypass-cap" technique.
 - experiment was to "improve" supply decoupling and see if there were any "sonic" changes.
 - to test Elliott/Bateman's "stacked-bypass," conjecture, removal of the .1uf SMT caps is required. (will do this soon, if time permits)

*CAUTION* for casual capacitor bypassing: (SB0460)
 - watch out for C107 47uF and C108 10uf, where shorting may cause unexpected results.
 - they form capacitive coupling to ground, for pins FILT+ and VQ: (see page 24, Cirrus CS4383 datasheet)

*FILT+* = Positive Voltage Reference (Output) - Positive reference voltage for the internal sampling circuits.
 Requires the capacitive decoupling to analog ground, as shown in the Typical Connection Diagram.

*VQ* = Quiescent Voltage (Output) - Filter connection for internal quiescent voltage. VQ must be capacitively coupled to analog ground, as shown in the Typical Connection Diagram. The nominal voltage level is
 specified in the Analog Characteristics and Specifications section. VQ presents an appreciable source
 impedance and any current drawn from this pin will alter device performance. However, VQ can be
 used to bias the analog circuitry assuming there is no AC signal component and the DC current is less
 than the maximum specified in the Analog Characteristics and Specifications section.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_All your tests are within a margin of error & may improve very slightly with more time the computer is booted so of no particular concern. How does the spectrum analysis look though or did you compare those?_

 

Yep, again, well aware of limits of DAC and it's influence on op amp performance, relative to RMAA results.

 Spectrum analysis? You mean the graphs?
 - link to 24b/96k RMAA Result HTML and GIFs (28kBytes): 
http://www.esnips.com/doc/9346e7bf-f.../X-FI-MOD-025b

 We having PHUN yet?


----------



## germanium

Your graphs look excellent but it appears that the test was for 96KHz but the card sample rate was set for 48KHz. The noise floor looks very clean. Any distortion in the dynamic range test is completely buried by noise from the less than ideal adc chip.


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Your graphs look excellent but it appears that the test was for 96KHz but the card sample rate was set for 48KHz. The noise floor looks very clean. Any distortion in the dynamic range test is completely buried by noise from the less than ideal adc chip._

 

Thanks for the feedback, Germanium...
 - yeah, RMAA setup was 24b / 96khz, for that test
 - were does one select/check for sample rate? (using demo version, RMAA v6.0.5)


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bichi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks for the feedback, Germanium...
 - yeah, RMAA setup was 24b / 96khz, for that test
 - were does one select/check for sample rate? (using demo version, RMAA v6.0.5)_

 

Audio creation mode there is a button in the lower left hand corner that says settings. There you can set the master sample rate of the card. You can also select bit matched playback there


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Audio creation mode there is a button in the lower left hand corner that says settings. There you can set the master sample rate of the card. You can also select bit matched playback there_

 

Nope, don't see it
 - will have to poke around Creative stuff.
 - maybe because you have a more advanced model?


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bichi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Nope, don't see it
 - will have to poke around Creative stuff.
 - maybe because you have a more advanced model?_

 

You have to go to the mixer for Audio creation mode. Not the console.


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You have to go to the mixer for Audio creation mode. Not the console._

 

ahhh...
 - don't have Creative Mixer installed...
 - will do and retest, probably tomorrow.
 - thanks for the tip!


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bichi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ahhh...
 - don't have Creative Mixer installed...
 - will do and retest, probably tomorrow.
 - thanks for the tip!_

 

I have photos of my RMAA tests but would have to send the direct to you through msn or some other program that does file transfers.


----------



## bichi

_forgot its Labor Day holiday tomorrow and stay up a bit later....._

 Thanks to *Germanium,* corrected sample rate settings for RMAA tests, "audio-creation" mode, with Creative "Volume Panel":
 - had to install. (never cared for simplified, PC-screen, "sound board mixers")

 (44k/16b) - C91, C119: 6.8uf @ 25vdc tant from Wincap 10uf @ 16vdc - (corrected sample rate setting: 44khz)
http://www.esnips.com/doc/74980e5b-8.../X-FI-MOD-026b

 (96k/24b) - C91, C119: 6.8uf @ 25vdc tant from Wincap 10uf @ 16vdc - (corrected sample rate setting: 96khz)
http://www.esnips.com/doc/4f06eff5-9.../X-FI-MOD-027b

 RMAA v6.0.5 - [24b/96k] - HTML and GIFs - ZIPPED - (corrected sample rate setting: 96kz)
http://www.esnips.com/doc/7a5a181a-1.../X-FI-MOD-028b


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bichi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_forgot its Labor Day holiday tomorrow and stay up a bit later.....

 Thanks to *Germanium,* corrected sample rate settings for RMAA tests, "audio-creation" mode, with Creative "Volume Panel":
 - had to install. (never cared for simplified, PC-screen, "sound board mixers")

 (44k/16b) - C91, C119: 6.8uf @ 25vdc tant from Wincap 10uf @ 16vdc - (corrected sample rate setting: 44khz)
http://www.esnips.com/doc/74980e5b-8.../X-FI-MOD-026b

 (96k/24b) - C91, C119: 6.8uf @ 25vdc tant from Wincap 10uf @ 16vdc - (corrected sample rate setting: 96khz)
http://www.esnips.com/doc/4f06eff5-9.../X-FI-MOD-027b

 RMAA v6.0.5 - [24b/96k] - HTML and GIFs - ZIPPED - (corrected sample rate setting: 96kz)
http://www.esnips.com/doc/64878699-c.../X-FI-MOD-028b_

 

Hmmm, still shows like its at 48KHZ. early rolloff. You need to set the recording sample rate & bit depth in the lower right hand side of the mixer as well.


----------



## bichi

yeah, my brain-fart
 - posted the wrong file
 - http://www.esnips.com/doc/7a5a181a-1.../X-FI-MOD-028b


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bichi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_yeah, my brain-fart
 - posted the wrong file
 - http://www.esnips.com/doc/7a5a181a-1.../X-FI-MOD-028b_

 

much better


----------



## germanium

I suspect that the reason my 2nd harmonic distortion went up is because of the D.C. offset due to D.C. coupling. All othe distortion componants are lower on my card than the stock card.


----------



## bichi

well krappers!
 - gotta set BOTH sample rate AND record rate?
 - geeeeeeze....
 - need a snack before any more RMAA test fun.....


----------



## bichi

ha!
 - three RMAA crashes, with Creative Volume panel
 - Creative set for 96k sample and record set for 96k 24b
 - RMAA set for 96k/24b test.....

 Will plod on tomorrow.....
 - twists Germanium's gain bias pot to high....


----------



## germanium

Here is link to my tests on Esnips http://www.esnips.com/web/X-FiRMAAtests/

 Notice how clean the noise floor is compared to creatives own tests & how you can see all the harmonic distortion spurie all the way up to 44KHz because the noise floor is so low. Here you can also see the increased second harmonic but everthing else is lowered. This is probably due to the D.C. coupling as there is about 100mv D.C. offset at the output.

 Notice also the very very low IMD at high frequencies on my modded card. The stock card is really quite bad up there especially beyond 30KHz. One may think that that is ok but IMD products frequently get dumped back into the audio band & are quite audible potentially even at that level if the products make it back into the 1-5KHz range.


----------



## ter1

Hi, Germanium, you have lots of explanations since post #1055, do you have other mods besides the ones stated in your post #1055?

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showpo...postcount=1055

 Thanks!

 Another question, you said in #1112 that "Bass is rock solid but with ambiance not heard before. This can still be improved apon with bigger bypasses on the +/- 12 volt caps. ", but in your #1055, you said, bypass with 1 3.3uf is fine, do you suggest more capacitance metalized cap here?

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showpo...postcount=1112


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ter1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi, Germanium, you have lots of explanations since post #1055, do you have other mods besides the ones stated in your post #1055?

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showpo...postcount=1055

 Thanks!

 Another question, you said in #1112 that "Bass is rock solid but with ambiance not heard before. This can still be improved apon with bigger bypasses on the +/- 12 volt caps. ", but in your #1055, you said, bypass with 1 3.3uf is fine, do you suggest more capacitance metalized cap here?

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showpo...postcount=1112_

 

Yes I was going to try that & see if it helps here . It has gernerally worked before. This is bypassing the 2 -220uf caps by the opamps I tried it before but never looked closely at the IM distortion which improved in good portion. Even though the bass is very solid now, better than stock , I feel there is still room for improvement. Looking to put about 10uf here. You see my tests Ter1?

 I guess I have been very busy on here lately haven't I??


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bichi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ha!
 - three RMAA crashes, with Creative Volume panel
 - Creative set for 96k sample and record set for 96k 24b
 - RMAA set for 96k/24b test.....

 Will plod on tomorrow.....
 - twists Germanium's gain bias pot to high...._

 

My gain pot already set to high, HaHa Oh you mean bias pots, eh. Well I don't have any of those so your out of luck, HaHaHaHeeeeHaaaawwwww


----------



## LawnGnome

Got some burrbrown opa2132's coming in tomorrow, might see how they fair.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LawnGnome* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Got some burrbrown opa2132's coming in tomorrow, might see how they fair._

 

Seems to have very similar specs to the National part being recommended right down to the current capability. Nothing here to get my upgrade juices going. Would want similar specs but higher current drive capability & ability to work with lower output impedance without lowering performance. Performance drops as output loading impedance drops & is sensitive to capacitance.


----------



## LawnGnome

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Seems to have very similar specs to the National part being recommended right down to the current capability. Nothing here to get my upgrade juices going. Would want similar specs but higher current drive capability & ability to work with lower output impedance without lowering performance. Performance drops as output loading impedance drops & is sensitive to capacitance._

 

Yeah, the BB OPAx132 series has a good reputation for quite a while as a nice little opamp.

 I also have some single channel versions coming that I might use to replace the opamps in my amp.


----------



## holland

OPA2132 is ho-hum. The LM4562 is *much* better sounding. They don't spec anything alike neither. The LM4562 has a much higher input bias and offset currents and voltages.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *holland* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_OPA2132 is ho-hum. The LM4562 is *much* better sounding. They don't spec anything alike neither. The LM4562 has a much higher input bias and offset currents and voltages._

 

I stand corrected on the specs but still looking for higher current part that can drive sub 100 ohm loads without loss of performance & not be reactive to capacitance in the cables when the resistance at the output is below 100 ohms. Thats what I get for going by memory when comparing specs. Looking at the specs these do actually look better than I originally remembered & said. But there is this nagging thing that I've seen some that seemed to have a drop in performance in these cards. I wish someone could in fact show me the case where it actually performed better. The NJM2114 seems to perform better than the specs suggest in my card.

 This may be an unobtainable goal but I don't want to put an amp in & not have at least as good performance as I already have.


----------



## CloseToTheHedge

Thank you so much for this thread. I'm almost salivating at the prospect of teaming up a modded elite pro with my HD595s. Problem is I'm a wimp...

 I apologies if I'm posting in the wrong place, but is there anyone offering to mod an Elite Pro for me? Preferably in the UK/Europe since shipping and tax elsewhere could be nasty. I already have the opamp, but I may be tempted to put a blackgate in too. I'd really prefer someone with some feedback if possible, since I've had bad experiences with forum trades before. Naturally, I'll pay whatever you think is reasonable for labour, as well as all shipping costs. I can pay by Paypal, cash, cheque, bank transfer, or anything else you suggest. You can even keep the two extra opamps I was sent, since I only need the headphone out modding.

 Considered doing it myself, since I CAN solder/desolder, but with the size of the opamp it's slightly above what I'm willing to do.

 If anyone is interested in helping out a beginner, please reply/PM/email me.

 Thanks in advance.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *CloseToTheHedge* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thank you so much for this thread. I'm almost salivating at the prospect of teaming up a modded elite pro with my HD595s. Problem is I'm a wimp...

 I apologies if I'm posting in the wrong place, but is there anyone offering to mod an Elite Pro for me? Preferably in the UK/Europe since shipping and tax elsewhere could be nasty. I already have the opamp, but I may be tempted to put a blackgate in too. I'd really prefer someone with some feedback if possible, since I've had bad experiences with forum trades before. Naturally, I'll pay whatever you think is reasonable for labour, as well as all shipping costs. I can pay by Paypal, cash, cheque, bank transfer, or anything else you suggest. You can even keep the two extra opamps I was sent, since I only need the headphone out modding.

 Considered doing it myself, since I CAN solder/desolder, but with the size of the opamp it's slightly above what I'm willing to do.

 If anyone is interested in helping out a beginner, please reply/PM/email me.

 Thanks in advance._

 

check out Bichi's tutorial here about swapping opamps.http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showth...229350&page=54


----------



## CloseToTheHedge

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_check out Bichi's tutorial here about swapping opamps.http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showth...229350&page=54_

 

Thanks for the reply. I did read that before but it still sounded a bit over my head. However after looking at the pictures I just might be able to manage that if I got hold of some soldering paste. I also have an old Audigy 2 ZS, so I guess I could feasibly try switching the opamp on that, and if it works go ahead and mod the x-fi.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *CloseToTheHedge* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks for the reply. I did read that before but it still sounded a bit over my head. However after looking at the pictures I just might be able to manage that if I got hold of some soldering paste. I also have an old Audigy 2 ZS, so I guess I could feasibly try switching the opamp on that, and if it works go ahead and mod the x-fi._

 

Good plan I would say.


----------



## holland

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I stand corrected on the specs but still looking for higher current part that can drive sub 100 ohm loads without loss of performance & not be reactive to capacitance in the cables when the resistance at the output is below 100 ohms. Thats what I get for going by memory when comparing specs. Looking at the specs these do actually look better than I originally remembered & said. But there is this nagging thing that I've seen some that seemed to have a drop in performance in these cards. I wish someone could in fact show me the case where it actually performed better. The NJM2114 seems to perform better than the specs suggest in my card.

 This may be an unobtainable goal but I don't want to put an amp in & not have at least as good performance as I already have._

 

Hmm, I only know of one chip that'll fit the pinouts and can truly drive a headphone and that's the AD8397, but it's a finicky chip. It doesn't need an external buffer, since it pumps out 200+mA. Since I'm not familiar (haven't invested the time or effort) with the output stage of the X-Fi, I don't know if it can fit in there without issues. The AD8620 (a bit thin and tinny) and the OPA2107 (dark and slightly veiled) both have higher currents than the LM4562 (which is very meak and not really made for driving low impedence directly), and I do use them in CMoy configurations. They work OK, but depending on your headphone drivers it might not be adequate. If push comes to shove, I would use the AD8620. There are other high speed opamps which are better, but they are much much finickier.

 I do have the LM4562 in my X-Fi, but I use a headphone amp as well. The high input offset and bias voltages and currents of the LM4562 is what causes the high DC offset in my CMoy (~170mv/channel). I would have to tweak some resistances to resolve it, but I just dropped a different opamp in, since I have a few different ones and I need to order different resistors (plain lazy). I went blindly with the transplant on the X-Fi, and I do like the sound of the LM4562 a lot. The extension is much cleaner on both ends compared to the stocker.


----------



## LawnGnome

Why hasn't anyone considered super high speed opamps?

http://focus.ti.com/docs/prod/folder...t/opa2822.html

 Looks interesting, 

 Only 2nv noise, 32ns settling time to .1%, 170 v/us slew rate.


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_"...but still looking for higher current part that can drive sub 100 ohm loads without loss of performance & not be reactive to capacitance in the cables when the resistance at the output is below 100 ohms..."_

 

Here ya go, ya assquack (LOL!)
 - now pull-finger and get your soldering iron out...

 Going to assume AD8599 will operate at lower Vs range and install now...
 - and if it doesn't, I'll never admit it....

*Analog Devices AD8599*
 - 1 nV/√Hz at 1 kHz noise
 - Slew rate: 16 V/μs
 - 30ma output drive
 [size=xx-small]- (small on purpose: assuming at 15vdc) [/size]

 Comment at Analog Zone:
http://www.analogzone.com/acqp1009.htm

 Preliminary datasheet says ±5V to ±15V Operation:
http://www.silica.com/media.php/Imag...ept06.pdf?dl=1

 Released datasheet says ±15 V operation:
http://www.analog.com/UploadedFiles/...ets/AD8599.pdf


----------



## holland

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bichi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*Analog Devices AD8599*
 - 30ma output drive_

 

That's about average. 30-60 is the range of most opamps. My reading was he wanted to drive it with authority, meaning you would need a couple hundred mA. The opamp was also mentioned early on, as an alternative to the LM4562, if driving headphones.

 LawnGnome, if you're going to try and run a finicky opamp, you need to figure out the entire opamp circuit. There's a decent chance you will oscillate.


----------



## bichi

Decided not to install AD8599 this round, but installed LME49720, to compare against previous LME49860.
 - curious to see if any compromises were made, given higher Vs voltage range. (+/-17 vs., +/-22)
 - appears to have the same "excellent" sonic quality.
 - RMAA results show no obvious deviations.

 Will have to order SOIC socket/flipchip, this week.

 Eyeballing NJM2144 for possible installtion...
 - just so I can win a prime-rib dinner from "GermaniumShortedByPassBoi."
 - so our gear is more "apples-to-apples," his with caps stapled on and my tants... (LOL) 

 Change Status: ** Sep 04, 2007 **
 - LME49720 from NJM4556 (Line-Out) (<-- new, was LME49860)
 - LME49860 from TI M33078 (Line-In)
 - (C177) Panasonic FK, 1500uf @ 16vdc from Jamicon WL 220uf @ 16vdc
 - (C16) Panasonic FC, 220uf @ 25vdc from Jamicon SS 100uf @ 16vdc (replaced C46 with original Jamicon 100uf)
 - (C107) 47uf @ 20vdc TANT from G-LUXCON, 47uf @ 16vdc (<- new add)
 - (C72) 10uf @ 16vdc TANT from Jamicon SS 22uf @ 16vdc
 - (C91, C119, C108) 4.7uf @35vdc TANT from Wincap 10uf @ 16vdc (<- new add C108)

 Hardware Pic:
http://www.esnips.com/doc/f8a6eac3-9.../X-FI-MOD-029b

 RMAA Results Summary:
http://www.esnips.com/doc/fae858ca-8.../X-FI-MOD-030b

 RMAA Results Detail:
http://www.esnips.com/doc/aa2e8487-3.../X-FI-MOD-031b


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Here is link to my tests on Esnips http://www.esnips.com/web/X-FiRMAAtests/_

 

Nice!
 - gonna be hard to "whup" yer bypassed, shorted hinder...
 - got me beat by 10db in noise, at the low end!

 And now that you're all set on eSnips, post a picture of yer, umm, umm, "thing..."


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bichi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Nice!
 - gonna be hard to "whup" yer bypassed, shorted hinder...
 - got me beat by 10db in noise, at the low end!

 And now that you're all set on eSnips, post a picture of yer, umm, umm, "thing..."_

 

Shoot, I even beat Creatives own tests by 3db in the noise catagory. Check out the IMD swept distortion. Mine is way better at the top end.


----------



## LawnGnome

I'll play this game, and whoop you all.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Be right back with 24bit 96khz tests.


----------



## LawnGnome

Here's what I got so far.

 Will see how it does with a new opamp, and once the new caps go through a few power cycles.

 EDIT: Also bichi, me and you at a big disadvantage since germanium has a better DACs.

 Our big improvement can come from sound detail and such from using high slew rate, low settling time opamps.

 By picking something much faster than a slow 16v/us.


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LawnGnome* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'll play this game, and whoop you all.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Be right back with 24bit 96khz tests._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LawnGnome* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_EDIT: "...Also bichi, me and you at a big disadvantage since germanium has a better DACs...."_

 

cool!
 - the fun is comparing DC-coupled and parallel-bypassing against AC-coupled, op-amp swap and tantalum bypassing.
 - plan for me was to complete tant bypass stuff, then test direct coupling, as the final step, using *Germanium's* excellent results, as a reference. (yes, well aware his SB0550 is a superior card)
 - all this prodded by Rod Elliott's and Cyril Bateman's papers and caused me to re-think design habits. (ref below)

 So we can see each other's complete RMAA results:
 - both "[DirectSound] SB X-Fi Audio [7C00]-xxx" folder and "[DirectSound] SB X-Fi Audio [7C00]-xxx-set.htm," zipped.
 - also, *Germanium* provides excellent analysis of RMAA detailed results too... 
 - open an eSnips account? - (free) http://www.esnips.com/
 - pictures would be nice too...

 You are the one with "recapped MB and PSU," right?

*Germanium:*
 OS: Vista Ultimate 64b; XP sp2
 X-FI Driver: 2_13_0012
 AUD: X-FI Elite Pro (SB0550)
 TRICK: metalized bypass; DCouple; stock NJM2114
 RMAA: RMAA 6.0.5
 MB: Abit AB9Pro, Core2Duo E6600 overclocked to 3.006 GHZ & 4GB memory
 PSU: Pure power 480
 Link to pics and Results: http://www.esnips.com/web/X-FiRMAAtests/

*bichi*
 OS: XP SP2
 X-FI Driver: 5.12.6.1187
 AUD: X-FI F1 (SB0460)
 TRICK: tantalum bypass; LME49720 L-Out; LME49860 L-In
 RMAA: RMAA 6.0.5 (demo)
 MB: ASUS P5WDH, Q6700 @ 3.0, 2/4G RAM @ 500mhz (PC-8800)
 PSU: Seasonic S12+ 550
 Link to pics and Results: http://www.esnips.com/web/X-FIOpAmpandCapModification

_REF:
 Capacitor Characteristics; Ron Elliot, (Audio Applications)
http://sound.westhost.com/articles/capacitors.htm_


----------



## holland

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bichi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_- plan for me was to complete tant bypass stuff, then test direct coupling, as the final step, using *Germanium's* excellent results, as a reference. (yes, well aware his SB0550 is a superior card)_

 

Interesting. Why tantalum? I've heard of it being preferenced in other threads, but never really sure why. Germanium seems to prefer film. I'm thinking of tantalum as well, just cause it's easier to squeeze an SMD part in parallel and tantalum is easier to obtain.


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *holland* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Interesting. Why tantalum? I've heard of it being preferenced in other threads, but never really sure why. Germanium seems to prefer film. I'm thinking of tantalum as well, just cause it's easier to squeeze an SMD part in parallel and tantalum is easier to obtain._

 

umm, short answer:
 - tantalums have very low-dissipation and ESR figures, with much better stability/drift, compared to electrolytics.
 - to your point, they are compact and are space efficient.
 - downside: are sensitive to voltage abuse and are more expensive than AL electrolytics.
 - (but MUCH cheaper than AuriCap <-- points at Germanium...)
 - since tantalums are constructed with a "solid slug" electrolyte and are not "wound," do not have the same inductive characteristics. (subject of high controversy, see Ron Elliot's paper, figure 11)
 - Creative (SB0460) uses "parallel power bypass" with an electrolytic and small-value chip cap for the CS4382 DAC power pins. (VA, VD, VLS, VLC: see Cirrus Logic CS4382 datasheet, figure 6)
 - much, much more technicals on tantalum with Google.....

 My "casual" theory is, given the very noisy PC environment (ghz hash), the DAC's digital nature, tantalum's ability to shunt effectively (hash in as well as out, given close proximity to audio op amps) energy density (power transient) and space on the card, tantalum would be as effective or maybe more effective than adding "external" bypassing caps.

 In the current state of mods, listening to "Finding Neverland" track (from movie DVD), there is a section where theme song is playing, characters are moving about in a playhouse. A bell "tinkles" and an "electrical" special-effect is present.
 The damn "tinkle" sounded like it was "INSIDE" my head, I felt like I was sitting IN the balcony and the "electrical" special-effect was amazing..... Positive I never heard it the same way with stock card. (never thought such high-quality, with precision phase and dynamics could come from PC audio.....) Playback is not anything special, just a pair of M-Audio BX-5's....

 REF:
 Electromagnetism 1 - Ivor Catt
http://www.ivorcatt.com/em.htm


----------



## holland

Oh, sorry, didn't mean relative to electrolytic. I meant relative to film (Germanium's preference). I guess that's answered by your second bullet (size)?

 Yep, saw the CS spec some time ago. I haven't checked to see what's on the X-Fi board though, so I'm just leeching.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bichi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_umm, short answer:
 - tantalums have very low-dissipation and ESR figures, with much better stability/drift, compared to electrolytics.
 - to your point, they are compact and are space efficient.
 - downside: are sensitive to voltage abuse and are more expensive than AL electrolytics.
 - (but MUCH cheaper than AuriCap <-- points at Germanium...)
 - since tantalums are constructed with a "solid slug" electrolyte and are not "wound," do not have the same inductive characteristics. (subject of high controversy, see Ron Elliot's paper, figure 11)
 - Creative (SB0460) uses "parallel power bypass" with an electrolytic and small-value chip cap for the CS4382 DAC power pins. (VA, VD, VLS, VLC: see Cirrus Logic CS4382 datasheet, figure 6)
 - much, much more technicals on tantalum with Google.....

 My "casual" theory is, given the very noisy PC environment (ghz hash), the DAC's digital nature, tantalum's ability to shunt effectively (hash in as well as out, given close proximity to audio op amps) energy density (power transient) and space on the card, tantalum would be as effective or maybe more effective than adding "external" bypassing caps.

 In the current state of mods, listening to "Finding Neverland" track (from movie DVD), there is a section where theme song is playing, characters are moving about in a playhouse. A bell "tinkles" and an "electrical" special-effect is present.
 The damn "tinkle" sounded like it was "INSIDE" my head, I felt like I was sitting IN the balcony and the "electrical" special-effect was amazing..... Positive I never heard it the same way with stock card. (never thought such high-quality, with precision phase and dynamics could come from PC audio.....) Playback is not anything special, just a pair of M-Audio BX-5's....

 REF:
 Electromagnetism 1 - Ivor Catt
http://www.ivorcatt.com/em.htm_

 

Not using Auricap, Just a cheap no name but good polyester metalyzed film cap. I see no purpose in going to epensive ones unless you realy need large caps such as 200mf which used to & may still be made by Solen. Solen makes realy good caps but are expensive & really only worth it if you can't get a film cap of your size requirement any where else.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *holland* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's about average. 30-60 is the range of most opamps. My reading was he wanted to drive it with authority, meaning you would need a couple hundred mA. The opamp was also mentioned early on, as an alternative to the LM4562, if driving headphones.

 LawnGnome, if you're going to try and run a finicky opamp, you need to figure out the entire opamp circuit. There's a decent chance you will oscillate._

 

Actually not looking for massive current just good current with no loss of performance with a load resistance less than 100ohms is all bu I'm finding that very hard to find. Most opamps seem to like 600 or more ohms with 2000 oms being optimal for them. Unfortunately 600 ohms & above is not optimal for driving headphone or capacitative cabling as values that high leave the sound somewhat muffled if you have to run any lenth of even modestly capacitative cable. That is why I make my own cables for connecting everything else but the PC, to keep the capacitance below 50pf. If it gets up to anywhere near 100pf i start hearing a slightly lifeless modestly muffled sound. The higher the value of the load resistor the more muffled the sound for a given capacitance. 

 The reason I haven't made my own PC interconnects is the load resistance hence output impedance is small enough the even moderately capacitive cables don't take the life out of the music. There is still enough output impedance though to protect the amp from oscillating in the presence of capacitative cabling. Some amps by the way are not stable into capacitative cable & will oscilate like crazy if exposed to the capacitance with no resistance between the amp and the cabling.


----------



## germanium

By the way I relooked at the specs of the lm4562 & I have to say I was dead wrong on the voltage where it performed best. It's 4-5 volts instead of 10 volts. My bad memory getting me in trouble again I guess, anyway I just wanted to correct that.

 4-5 volts is actually A reasonable test voltage as it is not very much worse at 2 volts but would still like to see 2 volts as a standard for testing the opamps but still post the graphs for those that need the higher output voltage such as some car stereo preamp outs.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LawnGnome* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 EDIT: Also bichi, me and you at a big disadvantage since germanium has a better DACs._

 

It's not that my DACs are that much better as there should only be 6db noise difference in the DACs. It is the ADCs that are really handicapping you. The noise spec for the DAC in the lower X-Fi cards is 114db & mine is 120db. My ADC has a noise spec from the factory of 123db which is better than the DACs 120db. The ADC on the lower cards is rated only 102db S/N.

http://www.wolfsonmicro.com/uploads/.../en/WM8775.pdf


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_http://www.wolfsonmicro.com/uploads/.../en/WM8775.pdf
 It's not that my DACs are that much better as there should only be 6db noise difference in the DACs. It is the ADCs that are really handicapping you. The noise spec for the DAC in the lower X-Fi cards is 114db & mine is 120db. My ADC has a noise spec from the factory of 123db which is better than the DACs 120db. The ADC on the lower cards is rated only 102db S/N.
http://www.wolfsonmicro.com/uploads/.../en/WM8775.pdf_

 

So that means we get a 6db noise handicap.... (weeeeeee!)

 Stopped by tech surplus and might have found a cheap, low-friction, low-pull SOIC op amp socket solution.
 - a bit of careful cutting and it appears I can make a pair of sockets and plugs (chip carrier) per strip.
 - about $2.75 USD for each part
 - back in a bit, after installing and dinner... 

 pic: http://premium1.uploadit.org/bichi00...t-hack-001.jpg


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bichi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So that means we get a 6db noise handicap.... (weeeeeee!)

 Stopped by tech surplus and might have found a cheap, low-friction, low-pull SOIC op amp socket solution.
 - a bit of careful cutting and it appears I can make a pair of sockets and plugs (chip carrier) per strip.
 - about $2.75 USD for each part
 - back in a bit, after installing and dinner... 

 pic: http://premium1.uploadit.org/bichi00...t-hack-001.jpg_

 

More like 18db handicap. 120db S/N DAC compared to 102db S/N ADC best case scenerio noise figures. Only problem there is enough noise in the ADC to completely obliterate any differences in the analog output from the DACs & opamps unless you make a really serious design error. If you go by creatives specs for my card which is 116db then it is a 14db handicap


----------



## LawnGnome

Well, I have another 40 opamps coming of various specs. Most for my amp though.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LawnGnome* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, I have another 40 opamps coming of various specs. Most for my amp though._

 

Wow, you have a lot of soldering ahead of you Lawn Gnome


----------



## bichi

Cheapo SOIC Socket-Hack done.
 - no more slobbering on X-FI SMT pads and feeling guilty about cutting legs off "good" op amps. - (weeeeee!)
 - SMT pads on board seem to be robust enough to handle insertion forces. (very light with this mod, compared to DIP8)
 - will most likely add some epoxy for added safety.

 AD8599 is a very nice sounding op amp, compared to LME49860/720
 - first impression is, ummm, "more classical" than LME's, with same low and high clearity. 

 RMAA results show no obvious anomalies and slightly better distortion figures.
 - will leave it to *Germanium* to critique 

 SOIC socket hack - parts:
http://www.esnips.com/doc/90a2332b-8.../X-FI-MOD-032b

 Finished op amp "module:"
http://www.esnips.com/doc/f87daa51-8.../X-FI-MOD-033b

 SOIC socket hack - AD 8599 installed in Line-Out position:
http://www.esnips.com/doc/a80ab9fb-c.../X-FI-MOD-034b

 SB0460 with AD8599 op amp, Line-Out - sample rate: 96k - tantalum bypass - op amp SOIC "socket hack"
 RMAA Results: http://www.esnips.com/doc/202603be-5.../X-FI-MOD-035b
 RMAA Detailed: http://www.esnips.com/doc/d13bdb7a-3.../X-FI-MOD-036b


----------



## TMM

Audigy 4 (non-pro) hotrod results:





 100uf changed to 470uf Samxon
 47uf's piggy backed with cheapo 100uf caps.
 4x 22uf near front channel opamp changed to Samxons
 Opamp changed to LM4562
 Rear of card shielded

 24bit/96khz is not much different to stock. 16bit/44khz has improved dramatically from stock though (THD and IMD was about twice as much)


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bichi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Cheapo SOIC Socket-Hack done.
 - no more slobbering on X-FI SMT pads and feeling guilty about cutting legs off "good" op amps. - (weeeeee!)
 - SMT pads on board seem to be robust enough to handle insertion forces. (very light with this mod, compared to DIP8)
 - will most likely add some epoxy for added safety.

 AD8599 is a very nice sounding op amp, compared to LME49860/720
 - first impression is, ummm, "more classical" than LME's, with same low and high clearity. 

 RMAA results show no obvious anomalies and slightly better distortion figures.
 - will leave it to *Germanium* to critique 

 SOIC socket hack - parts:
http://www.esnips.com/doc/90a2332b-8.../X-FI-MOD-032b

 Finished op amp "module:"
http://www.esnips.com/doc/f87daa51-8.../X-FI-MOD-033b

 SOIC socket hack - AD 8599 installed in Line-Out position:
http://www.esnips.com/doc/a80ab9fb-c.../X-FI-MOD-034b

 SB0460 with AD8599 op amp, Line-Out - sample rate: 96k - tantalum bypass - op amp SOIC "socket hack"
 RMAA Results: http://www.esnips.com/doc/202603be-5.../X-FI-MOD-035b
 RMAA Detailed: http://www.esnips.com/doc/d13bdb7a-3.../X-FI-MOD-036b_

 

Slightly higher low order THD on LME49680 but way less high order spurie. Less noise when signal present with LME49680.

 definately lower IMD swept distortion on AD8599 & very definately cleaner IMD spectrum. LME49680 still has slighly lower noise floor in spectum analysis of IMD.

 Crosstalk worse on AD8599 but only in one direction.

 Since IMD distortion is likely to be more audible than THD the AD8599 would seem to have the upper hand though the high order spurie does cause me slight concern on the THD.

 Noise with no signal slightly higher on AD8599. Spurie in noise with no signal slightly higher on on LME49680.

 The LME49680 appears to have the classic lower negative feedback distortion characteristics. Higher low order distortion & cleaner high order which acording to the accepted thought on feedback & distortion the LME49680 would have the upper hand & sound less clinical. Is that what you mean by discribing the AD8599 as more "classical" as in more clinical like older opamp designs Bichi??


----------



## germanium

The fact that the distortion characteristics are plainly visable & different, even with such a low grade ADC handicapping the design, it appears that the LME49680 is not the low distortion part it is claimed to be.

 I would try to get the NJM2114 to compare as that is what comes stock on my card. It seems to actually have better distortion characteristics than either of these in this circuit.


----------



## ter1

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes I was going to try that & see if it helps here . It has gernerally worked before. This is bypassing the 2 -220uf caps by the opamps I tried it before but never looked closely at the IM distortion which improved in good portion. Even though the bass is very solid now, better than stock , I feel there is still room for improvement. Looking to put about 10uf here. You see my tests Ter1?

 I guess I have been very busy on here lately haven't I??_

 


 Hi Germanium, can you have a summary of all your mod of x-fi elite pro in one post? Of course you can modify it based on your new founds. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Some other questions,

 1. I remember you said after you bypassed the 2 220uf caps by the opamps, the highs are too bright, so you don't suggest doing that? You have changed you mind on this? You suggest 1 10uf metalized caps now for the 2?

 2. The 2 220uf by the opamps are for power supply? If so, BG will be good choice, right? The original is 25v 220uf, can I replace them with 16v 1000uf BG ones? The voltage is okay?

 3. What are the functions of the 2 columns of 25v 100uf and 16v 47uf caps? For power supply use or other use? What caps do you suggest besides BG caps that I can replace them with the same voltage and capacitance? 

 4. For question 3, do you still suggest "100" be bypassed with 2 3.3uf and "47" be bypassed with 1 3.3uf ?

 5. Do you still suggest bypass the 220uf power supply cap near DSP with1-3.3uf metalized film cap?

 Thanks! You are so welcome here!~


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_"...The LME49680 appears to have the classic lower negative feedback distortion characteristics. Higher low order distortion & cleaner high order which acording to the accepted thought on feedback & distortion the LME49680 would have the upper hand & sound less clinical. Is that what you mean by discribing the AD8599 as more "classical" as in more clinical like older opamp designs Bichi??..."_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The fact that the distortion characteristics are plainly visable & different, even with such a low grade ADC handicapping the design, it appears that the LME49680 is not the low distortion part it is claimed to be.
 I would try to get the NJM2114 to compare as that is what comes stock on my card. It seems to actually have better distortion characteristics than either of these in this circuit._

 

Ge32,

 Thanks for the detailed analysis!
 - guess I'll have to send you two sockets and a few op-amp "carriers" so you can enjoy easy op-amp swaps, eh?
 - PM with mailing data, if interested.

 Yes, "classical" as in clinical. Refrained with accuracy and "blending," as opposed to, ummm, "excited."
 - would be interesting to see how a LME49840/760 would spec on your SB0550 and its digital section...
 - could mount a LME and NJM2114 on two carriers, provided you manage to get a socket soldered on.

 Completed an analysis of various single freq, whitenoise digital playbacks and RMAA.
 - see no ill effects of digital section power (tant) and socket modifications.
 - beginning to wonder if "technical" improvement limit is the DAC/ADC, and not so much the op-amps.

 Have ordered a handfull of NJM2114's and should be here in a week or so.

 Also pondering "pinning" coupling cap terminals, for easy shorting or cap coupling with various types.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ter1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi Germanium, can you have a summary of all your mod of x-fi elite pro in one post? Of course you can modify it based on your new founds. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Some other questions,

 1. I remember you said after you bypassed the 2 220uf caps by the opamps, the highs are too bright, so you don't suggest doing that? You have changed you mind on this? You suggest 1 10uf metalized caps now for the 2?

 2. The 2 220uf by the opamps are for power supply? If so, BG will be good choice, right? The original is 25v 220uf, can I replace them with 16v 1000uf BG ones? The voltage is okay?

 3. What are the functions of the 2 columns of 25v 100uf and 16v 47uf caps? For power supply use or other use? What caps do you suggest besides BG caps that I can replace them with the same voltage and capacitance? 

 4. For question 3, do you still suggest "100" be bypassed with 2 3.3uf and "47" be bypassed with 1 3.3uf ?

 5. Do you still suggest bypass the 220uf power supply cap near DSP with1-3.3uf metalized film cap?

 Thanks! You are so welcome here!~_

 

1.Yes going to try the bigger metalyzed film caps on the 2-220uf caps. can only get 12uf caps at the local store so going to pick them up this weekend. Yes I have changed my mind & am going to leave these bypassed. See below for reason.

 2. BG might be better if you arn't going to bypass the power caps but a waste of time & money if you are as the film bypasses are probably substantially superior.

 3. 4 of the 47uf caps serve as a ref voltage supply & may not be critical. The 100uf caps are to the intermal regulated supply on the DAC & appear to be critical. Do not change these but bypassing seems to help the clearity. The red marked caps are definately coupling caps & can be shorted.

 4.yes definately on the 100uf cap not sure whether the 47uf cap bypass matters but leaving mine bypassed with 1 3.3uf cap.

 5. Yes but going to try bigger 12uf bypasses there as well as there may be an improvement there. There was definately a drop in IMD swept distortion at 15KHZ & above though even with just the 3.3uf bypass caps there. Sound is slightly brighter but not overwhelmingly bright. There is definately a fair amount more detail there. 

 If you look at my tests & compare them to Creatives own tests mine are subtantially better. Bypassing input coupling caps to the ADC helps the noise floor of the ADC & slightly flattens the low frequence response of the ADC. Creative poor noise result is likely because of these caps.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bichi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ge32,

 Thanks for the detailed analysis!
 - guess I'll have to send you two sockets and a few op-amp "carriers" so you can enjoy easy op-amp swaps, eh?
 - PM with mailing data, if interested.

 Yes, "classical" as in clinical. Refrained with accuracy and "blending," as opposed to, ummm, "excited."
 - would be interesting to see how a LME49840/760 would spec on your SB0550 and its digital section...
 - could mount a LME and NJM2114 on two carriers, provided you manage to get a socket soldered on.

 Completed an analysis of various single freq, whitenoise digital playbacks and RMAA.
 - see no ill effects of digital section power (tant) and socket modifications.
 - beginning to wonder if "technical" improvement limit is the DAC/ADC, and not so much the op-amps.

 Have ordered a handfull of NJM2114's and should be here in a week or so.

 Also pondering "pinning" coupling cap terminals, for easy shorting or cap coupling with various types._

 

Sounds like my analysis was correct for the sound of the AD8599 from the graphs you provided. 

 I also noticed an wild variation of open loop phase distortion in the audio band in the graphs provided by Analog Devices which may be contributing to thier less favorable high order distortion plot but on the other hand this may be a case of AD being more honest than many others in the open loop plots. AD provided substantially more detail about a lot of things including what percentage of thier yields tested to within certain tolereances.

 Let me know how thing go in your tests, ok.


----------



## LawnGnome

bichi

 Yes the DAC is our limit. Our opamp mods or cap mods won't better the RMAA numbers.

 BUT, changing the opamp can change qualities RMAA doesn't measure, like detail.

 Look for an opamp with higher slew rate. 50-150 V/us, and lower settling time (500 to 50ns). This will help bring out detail.


 I have to change this damn OPA2132 though, the sound is nice and detailed, but lacks the impact and brightness I need. Way to mellow for me.


----------



## bichi

Last of the power-cap mods for me, then, on to coupling caps (for SB0460):
 - changed C101 and C124 to 33uf @ 16vdc TANT from Jamicon 22uf @ 16vdc.
 (ref: C1, DVDD and C3, AVDD on WM8775 datasheet, page 37, figure 29)
 - changed C115 and C123 to 6.8uf @ 16vdc TANT from Wincap 10uf @ 16vdc.
 (ref: C5, ADCREFP and C7 VMIDACD on WM8775 datasheet, page 37, figure 29)

 Noticable increased bass definition and power, without being muddy. Highs remain tight, clear...
 - listened with both LME49860 and AD8599, installed as Line-Out.

 When attempting to install SOIC socket for Line-In op amp and inspecting with eye-loupe, discovered:
 - only 1 of two amps is active, where second amp's inputs are grounded.
 - appears it's function is mono "mic" preamp only. (original MC33078 op amp on SB0460)
 - appears Line-In/Mic jack, when in stereo-mode, goes direct to Wolfson WM8775 ADC, coupled with two Jamicon 22uf NP's
 - so careful, most of the assumptions in this thread about Line-In op amp are *WRONG* 

 *yawn* - time to make some coffee and get out the door...
 - RMAA, pics, later this evening....

 REF:
 Wolfson WM8775 Datasheet:
http://www.wolfsonmicro.com/uploads/.../en/WM8775.pdf


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sounds like my analysis was correct for the sound of the AD8599 from the graphs you provided. 

 I also noticed an wild variation of open loop phase distortion in the audio band in the graphs provided by Analog Devices which may be contributing to thier less favorable high order distortion plot but on the other hand this may be a case of AD being more honest than many others in the open loop plots. AD provided substantially more detail about a lot of things including what percentage of thier yields tested to within certain tolereances.

 Let me know how thing go in your tests, ok._

 

AtomicNumber32,

 - will do....
 - interesting you mention "phase distortion" on AD8599
 - could have sworn a bassoon "moved" on a fade out, during a listening test (wrote it off as my imagination...)


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LawnGnome* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_bichi
 Yes the DAC is our limit. Our opamp mods or cap mods won't better the RMAA numbers. BUT, changing the opamp can change qualities RMAA doesn't measure, like detail. Look for an opamp with higher slew rate. 50-150 V/us, and lower settling time (500 to 50ns). This will help bring out detail. I have to change this damn OPA2132 though, the sound is nice and detailed, but lacks the impact and brightness I need. Way to mellow for me._

 

Yep, was always an "assumed," but did not know where the limit was.
 - now I know, I think, what the practical bounds are.

 Ummm, not sure high-slew instrumentation class op amps would behave in audio circuits, stability and ringing at upper freqs. (beyond audio)
 - will take your word on OPA2132 sounding, ummm, "instrumentation" like....

*EDIT:* 
 Ahhh, never-mind
 - just looked at datasheet and TI mentions "audio," along with instrumentation stuff.....
 - FET, eh?
 - January 1995?


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bichi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_AtomicNumber32,

 - will do....
 - interesting you mention "phase distortion" on AD8599
 - could have sworn a bassoon "moved" on a fade out, during a listening test (wrote it off as my imagination...)_

 

When I said open loop that is without any negative feedback to correct distortion. Having a fair degree of phase distortion open loop can throw some little monkey wrenches into the works so that while the feedback can correct some distortion prducts, it wouldn't be able to correct as much as it would normally without the phase distortion being there. High order distortion would likely be harder to correct than low order in this scenerio.

 By the way lower feedback amps generally do have better sound in spite of increased distortion as the distortion tends to be mostly low order. Which likely explains the better sound that people are reporting with the LME49720. It seems to have the classic low order distortion characteristics that are less audible & hence sound more accurate to the ear.

 My friend Jacks amps had 0 feedback & only about .02% distortion @ half power which was almost exclusively 3rd order. Second order distortion being cancelled out by the closely matched push-pull output section. This amp was very wide band & not just at milliwatt output as some tube amp builder like to quote but at full power. This amp was very very lively sounding with excellent dynamics that put the likes of Krell & Mark Levinson to shame in direct comparisons. I should know because I was there in those comparisons. The sound of the big tranny amps was restrained dynamically compared to the 0 feedback tube amps Jack built. By the way there was 0 phase distortion in the audio band on these amps & was like only 1-2 degrees off at 30,000 cycles. A far cry from the wild 30 degree variations of the AD8599.


----------



## LawnGnome

Well, I installed the OPA2822U.

 It has a much higher slew rate, and a greatly quicker response time.

 I've gotten back the edge and brightness back that I lost with the OPA2132. This amp is very detailed, and isn't forgiving to poor recordings.

 I find the sound very clear and clean sounding, but the soundstage is definitely lacking.

 Overall though it works well. And the numbers got measurably better as well.


----------



## bichi

Did some more interesting power-cap changes: (SB0460)

*WOLFSON WM8775 Power Section:*
 - changed C101 and C124 to 22uf @ 16vdc TANT from Jamicon 22uf @ 16vdc.
 - changed C115 to 6.8uf @ 16vdc TANT from Wincap 10uf @ 16vdc.
 - changed C123 to 10uf @ 16vdc TANT from Wincap 10uf @ 16vdc.

 WM8775 Datasheet Refs:
 - note 3, page 6 (VMID)
 - C1, (DVDD) C3, (AVDD), C5, (ADCREFP), page 37, figure 29
 - note 3, fig 29

*CREATIVE CA20K Power Section:*
 - C172, changed Jamicon 22uf @ 16vdc to Panasonic S, SMT, 33uf @ 25vdc

 Seems to have added more, ummm, "kick," to low end, without "muffles, muddyness..."
 High still retain "clean, clearity with definition." (small cymbal "ting, ting" as opposed to "tick, tick")

 Off to reload food stocks, back in a hour or so.....

 AD8599 Line-Out installed with changes above: (do your excellent magic, that is, if you feel up to it...*GermaniumAtomic32!*)
 - RMAA Summary: http://www.esnips.com/doc/208e13ad-6.../X-FI-MOD-038b
 - RMAA Detail: http://www.esnips.com/doc/77b34e7f-1.../X-FI-MOD-039b

_REF:
 WM8775 Datasheet:
http://www.wolfson.co.uk/uploads/doc.../en/WM8775.pdf_


----------



## bichi

Another nice, cheap power section change:

*OP AMP -5vdc SECTION:*
 C72 - 10uf @ 16vdc TANT from Jamicon
 C74, C75 - 33uf @ 35vdc SMT, from Jamicon 22uf @ 25vdc

 - Stereo Crosstalk reduced by about 1.9db, -98.2 vs. -96.3 
 - THD and IMD figures improved as well

 Sonically reproducing with excellence, accuracy and clearity, across, vocals, instruments, etc...

 Said it before, but I NOW think I'm ready to experiment with coupling capacitors....

 SB0460 with AD8599 installed:
 Socket Hack close-up: http://www.esnips.com/doc/87ab1b96-f.../X-FI-MOD-033c
 RMAA Summary: http://www.esnips.com/doc/6e57a231-9.../X-FI-MOD-040b
 RMAA Detail: http://www.esnips.com/doc/d1839503-f.../X-FI-MOD-041b
 PIC: http://www.esnips.com/doc/690156f4-f.../X-FI-MOD-042b


----------



## ter1

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_1.Yes going to try the bigger metalyzed film caps on the 2-220uf caps. can only get 12uf caps at the local store so going to pick them up this weekend. Yes I have changed my mind & am going to leave these bypassed. See below for reason.

 2. BG might be better if you arn't going to bypass the power caps but a waste of time & money if you are as the film bypasses are probably substantially superior.

 3. 4 of the 47uf caps serve as a ref voltage supply & may not be critical. The 100uf caps are to the intermal regulated supply on the DAC & appear to be critical. Do not change these but bypassing seems to help the clearity. The red marked caps are definately coupling caps & can be shorted.

 4.yes definately on the 100uf cap not sure whether the 47uf cap bypass matters but leaving mine bypassed with 1 3.3uf cap.

 5. Yes but going to try bigger 12uf bypasses there as well as there may be an improvement there. There was definately a drop in IMD swept distortion at 15KHZ & above though even with just the 3.3uf bypass caps there. Sound is slightly brighter but not overwhelmingly bright. There is definately a fair amount more detail there. 

 If you look at my tests & compare them to Creatives own tests mine are subtantially better. Bypassing input coupling caps to the ADC helps the noise floor of the ADC & slightly flattens the low frequence response of the ADC. Creative poor noise result is likely because of these caps._

 


 Germanium, thank you very much for your explanation. Another 4 questions!~

 1. Have you tested all the 3 power supply cap bypassed by 12uf polymer film cap? What the max cap do you suggest for bypass caps? 18uf? 22uf or even 47uf? Solen is the good choice, right?

 2. What capacitance and voltage do you suggest for the 2 opamp power supply caps that I want to replace?

 3. You suggested not to touch the 47uf and 100uf caps for DAC to opamp path. Just bypass them with 3.3uf polymer (1 for 47uf and 2 for 100uf). Do you think these 47 and 100 caps are handicaps?

 4. Beyond all above, what's your other suggestions for hotrodding?


 Thanks!


----------



## ter1

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_... You see my tests Ter1?_

 


 Yes, I see your 24bit 96kHz pictures, very perfect!!!

 I posted your pictures on other forums, the response is very positive, but often challenged that "16bit 44.1kHz" is the main parameters we usually use, "24bit 96kHz" is rarely used!!

 So can you post the results for "16bit 44.1kHz" and "24bit 48kHz" results pictures?

 Lots of people are waiting them.......

 Thanks!


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ter1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Germanium, thank you very much for your explanation. Another 4 questions!~

 1. Have you tested all the 3 power supply cap bypassed by 12uf polymer film cap? What the max cap do you suggest for bypass caps? 18uf? 22uf or even 47uf? Solen is the good choice, right?

 2. What capacitance and voltage do you suggest for the 2 opamp power supply caps that I want to replace?

 3. You suggested not to touch the 47uf and 100uf caps for DAC to opamp path. Just bypass them with 3.3uf polymer (1 for 47uf and 2 for 100uf). Do you think these 47 and 100 caps are handicaps?

 4. Beyond all above, what's your other suggestions for hotrodding?


 Thanks!_

 

1. Have not tested any 12uf caps yes & only have 2 as they are quite expensive even for cheapies. 11 dollars each. I'm on a very tight budjet for a few weeks so can't afford any more.

 2.16-25 volts & no more than 1000uf cap if you are changing electrolytic. If just bypassing I don't see much sense in going over 25uf per cap. Metalyzed films are very effective at 10% of the original caps size & even 5% is probably enough for the purposes as a bypass. Solen is a very good brand. They are also very large but I do believe they have come out with some smaller lower voltage caps that may be suitable. You will have to check thier catalog out.

 3. These caps are for an internal voltage regulator for the DAC only. I shorted the coupling caps.

 4. Nothing extra at the moment.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ter1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes, I see your 24bit 96kHz pictures, very perfect!!!

 I posted your pictures on other forums, the response is very positive, but often challenged that "16bit 44.1kHz" is the main parameters we usually use, "24bit 96kHz" is rarely used!!

 So can you post the results for "16bit 44.1kHz" and "24bit 48kHz" results pictures?

 Lots of people are waiting them.......

 Thanks!_

 

The pure 16 bit graphs are not really all that good interestingly. Look no better than the lower X-Fi photos, maybe even worse!!! 24 bit 44.1KHZ looks really good though. If you run the record section at 24 bit though & feed the DACs 16 bit it doesn't look to bad. You can actually tell your DACs are at the limit of the 16 bit system when read with 24 bit ADC. The ADC really needs to be run in 24 bit mode though to get the best readings.

 24 bit 48 pics really the same as the 96KHz pics but less bandwidth is all. exact same distortion characteristics. 

 Will post pics though a little later going to listen to music a little now so check back later for the pics.


----------



## germanium

16 bit DAC tests with 16 bit ADC reads

http://www.esnips.com/web/16bitRMAAtests

 16 bit DAC tests with 24 bit ADC reads

http://www.esnips.com/web/16bitRMAAtests24bitread

 You will see in the 24 bit read tests that I am at the 16 bit performance limits for this DAC & possably the real world 16 bi capabilities. In some ways the 16 bit DAC performance is better than the 24 tests on the lower X-Fi card.

 The pure 16 bit DAC & 16 bit ADC read is a little worse but within reach of the lower cards 24 bit performance.

 All in all not as bad I was thinking as I was thinking the other tests were for 16 bit but then remembered that they were for 24 bit performance on the lower card.

 Here is the results list. The first is 16 bit DAC 24 bit ADC read. The second is 16 bit DAC 16 bit ADC read both at 44.1 KHZ. Third is 24 bit DAC & ADC read at 48KHz sample rate.

http://www.esnips.com/doc/bb043116-8...erent-settings

 Hope this helps ter1


----------



## bichi

SB0460 - Coupling Capacitor Socket Hack:
 - socketed Line-IN (C48, C49) and Line-OUT caps (C23, C50, C76, C77)

 Basic RMAA and listen tests for correct function and baseline, after adding coupling cap sockets.
 RMAA Test Configuration:
 - AD8599 op amp
 - tantalum bypass changes, to date.
 - LINE-IN: (C48, C49) Panasonic A, 4.7uf @ 35vdc SMT from G-Luxon 4.7uf @ 25vdc NP
 - LINE-OUT: (C23, C50, C76, C77) Panasonic S, 22uf @ 16vdc, SMT from Jamicon 22uf @ 16vdc
 - AUX-IN (C102, C104) Panasonic A, 4.7uf @ 35vdc, SMT from Wincap 4.7uf @ 25vdc (not installed)
 - (C18, C19 ??) G-Luxon 4.7uf @ 25vdc (not installed) (need more study, not sure of function)

 Odd that Creative used NP for LINE-IN and polar for AUX-IN coupling caps. Both couple to Wolfson WM8775
 AIN2L/R, #27/26, AIN4L/R, #22/23 mux inputs, respectively.

 Ready for coupling-cap shorting, metal-film, ceramic, value change, peanutbutter-cap, experiments...

 Still sounding excellent, but have lost "ear," for now. Too much test listening this past week.

 RMAA v6.0.5 Test Results:
 Summary: http://www.esnips.com/doc/7e1a1e8a-6.../X-FI-MOD-044b
 Detail: http://www.esnips.com/doc/c3346183-b.../X-FI-MOD-045b

 Picture:
http://www.esnips.com/doc/eccf8cc2-7.../X-FI-MOD-043b


----------



## ter1

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_16 bit DAC tests with 16 bit ADC reads

http://www.esnips.com/web/16bitRMAAtests

 16 bit DAC tests with 24 bit ADC reads

http://www.esnips.com/web/16bitRMAAtests24bitread

 You will see in the 24 bit read tests that I am at the 16 bit performance limits for this DAC & possably the real world 16 bi capabilities. In some ways the 16 bit DAC performance is better than the 24 tests on the lower X-Fi card.

 The pure 16 bit DAC & 16 bit ADC read is a little worse but within reach of the lower cards 24 bit performance.

 All in all not as bad I was thinking as I was thinking the other tests were for 16 bit but then remembered that they were for 24 bit performance on the lower card.

 Here is the results list. The first is 16 bit DAC 24 bit ADC read. The second is 16 bit DAC 16 bit ADC read both at 44.1 KHZ. Third is 24 bit DAC & ADC read at 48KHz sample rate.

http://www.esnips.com/doc/bb043116-8...erent-settings

 Hope this helps ter1_

 

Yes, definitely, the recording depth should be 24bit with the same sample rate as in RMAA testing to get the best result. Also, the shared playback depth should be 24bit to get the best too!

 For 16bit 44.1kHz RMAA, I got the following result in following condition:
 1. bit-matched playback
 2. playback shared mode format: 24bit 44.1
 3. recording shared mode format: 24bit 44.1
 4. master sample rate: 44.1

 Frequency response (from 40 Hz to 15 kHz), dB +0.01, -0.06 Excellent (+0.01, -0.07)
 Noise level, dB (A) -102.8 Excellent (-103.5)
 Dynamic range, dB (A) 95.1 Excellent (94.9)
 THD, % 0.0013 Excellent (0.0017)
 THD + Noise, dB (A) -89.0 Good 
 IMD + Noise, % 0.0047 Excellent (0.0050)
 Stereo crosstalk, dB -103.3 Excellent (-103.7)
 IMD at 10 kHz, % 0.0052 Excellent (0.0055)
 General performance Excellent 

 Seems your results (after mod) are a little bit worse (except noise & crosstalk) than my stock results. 

 Do you think the real listening are far better than the stock ones?


----------



## ter1

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bichi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_SB0460 - Coupling Capacitor Socket Hack:
 - socketed Line-IN (C48, C49) and Line-OUT caps (C23, C50, C76, C77)

 Basic RMAA and listen tests for correct function and baseline, after adding coupling cap sockets.
 RMAA Test Configuration:
 - AD8599 op amp
 - tantalum bypass changes, to date.
 - LINE-IN: (C48, C49) Panasonic A, 4.7uf @ 35vdc SMT from G-Luxon 4.7uf @ 25vdc NP
 - LINE-OUT: (C23, C50, C76, C77) Panasonic S, 22uf @ 16vdc, SMT from Jamicon 22uf @ 16vdc
 - AUX-IN (C102, C104) Panasonic A, 4.7uf @ 35vdc, SMT from Wincap 4.7uf @ 25vdc (not installed)
 - (C18, C19 ??) G-Luxon 4.7uf @ 25vdc (not installed) (need more study, not sure of function)

 Odd that Creative used NP for LINE-IN and polar for AUX-IN coupling caps. Both couple to Wolfson WM8775
 AIN2L/R, #27/26, AIN4L/R, #22/23 mux inputs, respectively.

 Ready for coupling-cap shorting, metal-film, ceramic, value change, peanutbutter-cap, experiments...

 Still sounding excellent, but have lost "ear," for now. Too much test listening this past week.

 RMAA v6.0.5 Test Results:
 Summary: http://www.esnips.com/doc/7e1a1e8a-6.../X-FI-MOD-044b
 Detail: http://www.esnips.com/doc/c3346183-b.../X-FI-MOD-045b

 Picture:
http://www.esnips.com/doc/eccf8cc2-7.../X-FI-MOD-043b_

 

Hi, during your various mods to getting better results, I think the it's the limit by your card itself (DAC & ADC, etc). I think it will be huge improvement if you mod elite pro since you're willing to try different mods and looking into reference pdf files!~


----------



## germanium

oop looking at you post wrong so deleted this one. Yes the real listening is where it counts & that is substantially better. All tests are within a margine of error for a good stock card so nothing to worry about. Besides the pure 24 bit numbers speak for themselves. It is there that you can tell that I'm actually near or at the limit of the DACs & the DATA sent them when dealing with 16 bit DATA as those tests are much better. Remember also I'm testing in Windows Vista which may account for some very small differences & you have to admit the differences are extreemely small in this case.

 Will retest in Windows XP


----------



## germanium

The higher distortion definately an artifact of running Windows Vista as is the lower noise figures. Noise is not actually increased at all in XP, just the way it's read is all.

 Noise in XP. -95.0 db
 THD in XP .0009
 IMD + noise in XP .0050
 IMD swept in XP .0052
 crosstalk in XP -96.0
 Dynamic range in XP 95.0 db

 You must have been testing in Windows Vista also though given my XP results

http://www.esnips.com/web/WindowsXPR...ts441KHz16bit/

 Here you can see that the distortion tests in XP are actually considerably better in 16 bit THD & Dynamic range tests


----------



## germanium

Enabled bit matched recording in XP, New results

 noise -96.6db
 Dynamics 96.7db
 THD .0009%
 IMD .0042
 IMD swept .0043
 crosstalk -96.9db

 Will retest in Windows Vista with bit matched recording enabled


----------



## germanium

No differences in Windows Vista with bit matched recording enabled. Appearently Windows Vista is optimized for 24 bit resolution playback.

 I've done some tests in Windows Vista with 24 bit DATA sent to the DACs but read at 16 bit by the ADC. no appearent distortion was added, only noise by reading the 24 bit tests in 16 bit read mode. These AKM ADCs are excellent performers & are perfectly capable of revealing any limitations found elsewhere!!!

 Noise effects the distortion tests readout but in looking at the spectrum analysis the distortion is not actually increased at all compared to the full 24 bit read & write tests


----------



## djbigbear

i don't understand what were u guys talking about in the last few pages...
 less words, more pics please.

 is using ERS paper really making the sound a lot warmer?
 coz i find my X-Fi with LM4562+BG NX Hi-Q a bit too bright to my ears.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *djbigbear* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i don't understand what were u guys talking about in the last few pages...
 less words, more pics please.

 is using ERS paper really making the sound a lot warmer?
 coz i find my X-Fi with LM4562+BG NX Hi-Q a bit too bright to my ears._

 

Lots of pics in the links provided. Pics need explanation & analysis though & that why all the words.


----------



## djbigbear

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Lots of pics in the links provided_

 

try posting thumbnail links or maybe direct image.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *djbigbear* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_try posting thumbnail links or maybe direct image._

 

My pics too large DATA wise for my account on headfi & thumb nails themselve don't tell you much. Not sure how to do a thumbnail link.


----------



## djbigbear

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My pics too large DATA wise for my account on headfi & thumb nails themselve don't tell you much. Not sure how to do a thumbnail link._

 

ok... anyway...

 my second question please.... is there anyway i can make my X-Fi warmer....
 it's piercing my ear.


----------



## djbigbear

figures....
 no answer....


----------



## Apocalypsee

Change your speaker cables then, or use LME49720 which is slightly warmer than LM4562


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *djbigbear* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ok... anyway...

 my second question please.... is there anyway i can make my X-Fi warmer....
 it's piercing my ear._

 

Not sure what you listening to your X-Fi with but most of these mod actually are to bring out more detail not less. I find with my listening equipment more detail & high frequence extension without sounding piercing at all. It sound smoother & sweeter but definately not warmer like you seem to want. A little bit of EQ can warm things up for you if you need as can reducing the treble reduce the piercing quality but I would really look at the rest of your playback system as my mods do not make the high frequencies piercing or harsh. Only more detailed & sweeter to the ear. Certain earphones like the UE superfi 5 pro can be piercing to the ear even with the stoc X-Fi cards


----------



## djbigbear

i doubt a humble z5500 will do that....
 detailed, yes.... very detailed indeed...
 but clearly it's way to fatiguing.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *djbigbear* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i doubt a humble z5500 will do that....
 detailed, yes.... very detailed indeed...
 but clearly it's way to fatiguing._

 

The Z5500 is exactly the type of speaker that I would expect to do that. It is a single full range driver sattilite with subwoofer set up. That would have to use a fair amount of EQ in the sattilite driver amps to get good high frequence output & the drivers themselve would likele start to "breakup" as the driver is not optomized for high frequencies. 

 I'm running professional biamped near field monitors with a 5 1/4" woofer & 3/4" tweeter & a very high quality subwoofer. I modified the amps in these to improve even on these qualities.

 3" full range drivers cannot match this setup for warmth or detail w/sweetness.


----------



## djbigbear

so?
 will ERS paper helps?
 coz i haven't use any


----------



## Distroyed

So I finally got around to doing mine. The only soldering that I've ever done was to reconnect a headphone wire that was shorted (the hd580 wires are cheap as hell). That being said, the walkthroughs found here and elsewhere allowed me to competently perform the swap in less than 30min. Indeed, my sloppy removal worked in my favor as I was able to use the old solder for some of the reconnections. I havent made up my mind on the difference in sound yet. Thanks to everyone who has contributed to these guides.


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ter1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi, during your various mods to getting better results, I think the it's the limit by your card itself (DAC & ADC, etc). I think it will be huge improvement if you mod elite pro since you're willing to try different mods and looking into reference pdf files!~_

 

*ter1,*

 I fully understand the DAC/ADC "limit(s)" of the X-FI SB0460 vs. SB0550.
 - main purpose of my "experiments," is to prove/disprove theories and design habits about capacitors, both coupling and bypass, in the audio frequency range, and potential improvements by op amp change-outs.
 - to make the card "easily changeable," sockets had to be added for SOIC op amps and coupling capacitors.
 - wanted to find the objective improvement limits by op amp changes only.
 - objective performance improvements to the card is secondary, but will take any "sonic" improvements, if they occur.

 Purpose for publicly posting results is:
 - act as a sanity-check/reference.
 - third-party analysis. (*Germanium's* excellent RMAA analysis, for example)
 - provide mod data/methods for others on their mod quests. (soldering paste method vs., wire solder, for example)

 Challenges I have made, "gonna kik-yer-DirectCoupled-hinder," are in jest and not serious at all.
 - more to "prod" Germanium to socketing his Kung-Pow SB0550, in a "fun" way....

 When all the SB0460 "experimental" fun is completed, I might find a SB0550 in my Christmas stocking and with the body of experimental data, it will be much easier to achieve top "modded" performance.

 Hopefully, you and others will find some useful data/methods for your mods from my experiments.

 On that note, back to swapping coupling capacitor types and testing....

 EDIT: *ter1:* if you have practical experience coupling with metal-film vs., electrolytic, P and NP, or tantalum, I'd like to hear about it.....


----------



## germanium

Just got done with the 12uf mod. Sound slightly more full now, still retain detail though.

 The long leeds on the 12uf caps did bite a little on the noise figures but not very bad. just a few small spikes in the upper mids but still reads the S/N ratio as better than 116db


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just got done with the 12uf mod. Sound slightly more full now, still retain detail though.

 The long leeds on the 12uf caps did bite a little on the noise figures but not very bad. just a few small spikes in the upper mids but still reads the S/N ratio as better than 116db_

 

metalized-film? - power bypass or coupling? (thought you are using direct-coupling, right?)

 about to measure DC component on coupling caps, both Line-In (to Wolfson WM8775 ADC) and Line-Out (from Cirrus CS4382 DAC to op amp(s) differential input) 

 Back in a bit, with results....


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bichi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_metalized-film? - power bypass or coupling? (thought you are using direct-coupling, right?)

 about to measure DC component on coupling caps, both Line-In (to Wolfson WM8775 ADC) and Line-Out (from Cirrus CS4382 DAC to op amp(s) differential input) 

 Back in a bit, with results...._

 

Power bypass for the opamp power supply. Yes metalyzed film 12uf caps & yes DACs direct coupled


----------



## germanium

Sound like there is enough capacitance in the by passes to be able to rely strickly on the bypasses. sound quite full compared to the the smaller 3.3uf caps but retains the detail of the smaller bypasses.

 This is what I figured would happen with the larger bypasses


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sound like there is enough capacitance in the by passes to be able to rely strickly on the bypasses. sound quite full compared to the the smaller 3.3uf caps but retains the detail of the smaller bypasses.
 This is what I figured would happen with the larger bypasses_

 

Interesting.... replaced electrolytics with tantalums as bypass:
 - 22uf on analog and digital power inputs, on Wolfson DAC.
 - 6.8uf to 47uf on Cirrus ADC power inputs, depending on function.
 - 10uf on Op amp -5vdc section.

 Wonder if we are getting the same "sonic" impact/improvements?

 DC Bias on Line-Out coupling caps:
 - *2.15vdc @ 827ua* (Cirrus CS4382 DAC AOUTA+/A- and AOUTB+/- to op amps)
 - (corrected...)

 DC Bias on Line-In coupling caps:
 - 2.44vdc (Line-In to Wolfson ADC, AIN2L/R, pins #26, #27)
 - odd thing is Creative installed NP 4.7uf G-Luxon caps - (replaced with Panasonic S, 4.7uf @ 25vdc, polarity correct)

 EDIT: decimal error


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bichi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Interesting.... replaced electrolytics with tantalums as bypass:
 - 22uf on analog and digital power inputs, on Wolfson DAC.
 - 6.8uf to 47uf on Cirrus ADC power inputs, depending on function.
 - 10uf on Op amp -5vdc section.

 Wonder if we are getting the same "sonic" impact/improvements?

 DC Bias on Line-Out coupling caps: *2.15vdc @ 827ma* (Cirrus CS4382 AOUTA+/A- and AOUTB+/- to op amps)
 - 827ma (1.88watts!) seems very high, so no shorting bypass caps for me, at the moment, until I figure out the circuit_

 

D.C. cancels when both + & - caps are bypassed at the output of the opamps. The amperage you quote sounds like you shorted the output of the DACs to ground which is very bad. you have to be carefull when testing. But then again it seems that you would know that.


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_D.C. cancels when both + & - caps are bypassed at the output of the opamps. The amperage you quote sounds like you shorted the output of the DACs to ground which is very bad. you have to be carefull when testing. But then again it seems that you would know that._

 

WHAT? - yer a toad! short to ground? - LMAO!
 - made a stupid decimal error
 - set 2ma range setting and seeing .827 in display....
 - need some food, LOL!


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bichi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_WHAT? - yer a toad! short to ground? - LMAO!_

 

croak, croak, rivit, rivit, croak,croak


----------



## germanium

So thats microamps then. Thats a lot better


----------



## ter1

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Enabled bit matched recording in XP, New results

 noise -96.6db
 Dynamics 96.7db
 THD .0009%
 IMD .0042
 IMD swept .0043
 crosstalk -96.9db

 Will retest in Windows Vista with bit matched recording enabled_

 

woo, very good result!!

 Someone told me using the latest beta driver 
http://file9.mydrivers.com/sound/cre...a_20070711.zip

 the stock card can also reach very good result as below: (don't know whether is under XP or Vista32 or Vista64, but the driver is for all platforms)

 Frequency response (from 40 Hz to 15 kHz), dB +0.02, -0.07 Excellent 
 Noise level, dB (A) -96.1 Excellent 
 Dynamic range, dB (A) 96.3 Excellent 
 THD, % 0.0005 Excellent 
 THD + Noise, dB (A) -90.1 Very good 
 IMD + Noise, % 0.0043 Excellent 
 Stereo crosstalk, dB -95.7 Excellent 
 IMD at 10 kHz, % 0.0044 Excellent 
 General performance Excellent 


 details below:
http://bbs.bacao.net/sound/xfi_new.htm


 I'm using Vista always, I don't have XP installed, so all the results from me are under Vista 32bit. I think the result from XP is better than from Vista, right? Is there any listening different?

 Germanium, which driver are you using under Vista? You can try the latest beta driver since I was told "results are better and sound quality is better too"!


----------



## ter1

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sound like there is enough capacitance in the by passes to be able to rely strickly on the bypasses. sound quite full compared to the the smaller 3.3uf caps but retains the detail of the smaller bypasses.

 This is what I figured would happen with the larger bypasses_

 


 That's wonderful result! Do you think bypass the 3 with 18uf or 22uf is even good for fullness and distortion?

 Can you indicate which are ADC power supply caps? From your aboves, I think bypass these caps with your suggested capacitance film caps will improve too.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ter1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_woo, very good result!!

 Someone told me using the latest beta driver 
http://file9.mydrivers.com/sound/cre...a_20070711.zip

 the stock card can also reach very good result as below: (don't know whether is under XP or Vista32 or Vista64, but the driver is for all platforms)

 Frequency response (from 40 Hz to 15 kHz), dB +0.02, -0.07 Excellent 
 Noise level, dB (A) -96.1 Excellent 
 Dynamic range, dB (A) 96.3 Excellent 
 THD, % 0.0005 Excellent 
 THD + Noise, dB (A) -90.1 Very good 
 IMD + Noise, % 0.0043 Excellent 
 Stereo crosstalk, dB -95.7 Excellent 
 IMD at 10 kHz, % 0.0044 Excellent 
 General performance Excellent 


 details below:
http://bbs.bacao.net/sound/xfi_new.htm


 I'm using Vista always, I don't have XP installed, so all the results from me are under Vista 32bit. I think the result from XP is better than from Vista, right? Is there any listening different?

 Germanium, which driver are you using under Vista? You can try the latest beta driver since I was told "results are better and sound quality is better too"!_

 

My THD is higher mainly due to the D.C. couplind as there is some D.C. offset but all other distotion on my card seems to measure better on my card. The THD increase is solely 2nd harmonic & not an issue really as that is the most benign THD componant. Studies have shown that the 2nd harmonic can be as high as 5% before it is audibe as it is easily masked by the nearby much louder fundemental. I'm not worried about the THD numbers really as it is no consequence to the quality of the output.

 I'm using the driver that came on the CD for XP & 2.13.0012 for Windows Vista X-64 Ultimate.


----------



## ter1

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My THD is higher mainly due to the D.C. couplind as there is some D.C. offset but all other distotion on my card seems to measure better on my card. The THD increase is solely 2nd harmonic & not an issue really as that is the most benign THD componant. Studies have shown that the 2nd harmonic can be as high as 5% before it is audibe as it is easily masked by the nearby much louder fundemental. I'm not worried about the THD numbers really as it is no consequence to the quality of the output.

 I'm using the driver that came on the CD for XP & 2.13.0012 for Windows Vista X-64 Ultimate._

 

Thanks! Any differences of listening experience between your Vista64 and XP?

 I definitely suggest you use the latest driver. May there by huge improvement!


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ter1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's wonderful result! Do you think bypass the 3 with 18uf or 22uf is even good for fullness and distortion?

 Can you indicate which are ADC power supply caps? From your aboves, I think bypass these caps with your suggested capacitance film caps will improve too._

 

You can get away with replacing the electrolytic altogether At those sizes I think.The ESR of metalyzed films are lower than electrolytics at 10% the elctrolytics size. 

 Not sure what the power supply caps near the ADC are for. Whether for DAC or ADC but wouldnt hurt to bypass them I believe. 

 The 4 cap at the edge of the board near the ADC need to stay electrolytic of some form as they need to be large to reduce distortion in the ADC. You can increase them to 1000uf according to the ADC manufacturer as that would lower distortion at the low end.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ter1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks! Any differences of listening experience between your Vista64 and XP?

 I definitely suggest you use the latest driver. May there by huge improvement!_

 

haven't done much listening on XP lately but given the numbers XP might actually be better but only if certain criteria are met.

 1. Bit matched playback is checked
 2.card sample rate changed to 44.1KHz from 48KHz which can only be done on xp in the Audio Creation Mode when listening to CDs. 48 or 96KHz when listening to or watching DVDs


----------



## germanium

Going to get something to eat be back ibn couple of hours. Bye for now.


----------



## Yukon Trooper

Do you guys think the Prelude or XtremeMusic with LM4562 op amps and Black Gate capacitor would be able to drive the HD650's OK or would I see major benefits using an external amp?


----------



## bichi

SB0460 with LME49860
 - hardware configuration TEST-012

 I think something cool has happened, but will wait for *Germanium's* RMAA Detailed test result evaluation...

 RMAA v6.0.5 Test Results:
 Summary: http://www.esnips.com/doc/ef41dea9-0.../X-FI-MOD-046b
 Detail: http://www.esnips.com/doc/a562738d-6.../X-FI-MOD-047b


----------



## GameBlaster

I'm going to receive AD8599 and install it on my X-Fi Elite Pro Breakbox, I already installed LM4562 in the front-out and I directly plug HD595 without amp but I think the supplied current from LM4562 isn't enough for driving HD595 to its potential.
 So, will AD8599 drive HD595 better than LM4562 with almost the same sound quality?


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bichi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_SB0460 with LME49860
 - hardware configuration TEST-012

 I think something cool has happened, but will wait for *Germanium's* RMAA Detailed test result evaluation...

 RMAA v6.0.5 Test Results:
 Summary: http://www.esnips.com/doc/ef41dea9-0.../X-FI-MOD-046b
 Detail: http://www.esnips.com/doc/a562738d-6.../X-FI-MOD-047b_

 

Linked tests perfectly overlap with old tests, No differences at all here. Are you sure you posted the correct graphs?? Never mind the test results exactly the same also.


----------



## ter1

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_haven't done much listening on XP lately but given the numbers XP might actually be better but only if certain criteria are met.

 1. Bit matched playback is checked
 2.card sample rate changed to 44.1KHz from 48KHz which can only be done on xp in the Audio Creation Mode when listening to CDs. 48 or 96KHz when listening to or watching DVDs_

 

Hi, do you want to change to latest official (/beta) driver to do a test in 16/44.1 and 24/96?


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yukon Trooper* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Do you guys think the Prelude or XtremeMusic with LM4562 op amps and Black Gate capacitor would be able to drive the HD650's OK or would I see major benefits using an external amp?_

 

The Prelude would likely have a better chance out of the 2 soundcards & would likely sound better overall even if you used a seperate amp. not sure of the voltage on the opamps on the Prelude but it is probably the same as the Elite Pro which has +/- 12 volts where as the lower cards have only +/- 5volts which could seriously limit the output of the lower card into your phones. Either way though you still may need an amp. I don't have your particular model of phones so I don't know how they would actually work. Out of the soundcards though the Prelude has the best chance is all.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ter1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi, do you want to change to latest official (/beta) driver to do a test in 16/44.1 and 24/96?_

 

Maybe later as I use Vista almost exclusively as I have fewer problems with it than XP. Especially since EAX always crashes on shutdown on XP with my dual core CPU. It never does this on Vista. Vista seems to handle 2 CPUs better than XP.


----------



## ter1

I'm just using the latest drivers from creative from time to time for my x-fi under Vista. It's stable every time. 

 Just now, I installed the latest beta driver 0711 , everything's okay except when I start the RMAA, the application will crash, it's strange and I have no idea to that ... and can't do testings...

 Hope creative will release a new driver lately...


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ter1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm just using the latest drivers from creative from time to time for my x-fi under Vista. It's stable every time. 

 Just now, I installed the latest beta driver 0711 , everything's okay except when I start the RMAA, the application will crash, it's strange and I have no idea to that ... and can't do testings...

 Hope creative will release a new driver lately..._

 

If I install the latest official driver on Vista I get nothing but static so sticking with the original full release driver there too.


----------



## ter1

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If I install the latest official driver on Vista I get nothing but static so sticking with the original full release driver there too._

 

You can go to Creative official forum to get the latest applications that can be used with all the latest drivers released. The driver and applications on the original CD are outmoded. 

http://forums.creative.com/creativel...board.id=Vista


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ter1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You can go to Creative official forum to get the latest applications that can be used with all the latest drivers released. The driver and applications on the original CD are outmoded. 

http://forums.creative.com/creativel...board.id=Vista_

 

I have all the latest software that totally works. The ones posted on creatives site are actually inferior to the ones on the Vista CD. None of it does any good if the bare driver itself doesn't work at all.


----------



## germanium

Looked at the latest beta drivers & they seriosly recommend no more than 2GB memory & I have 4GB memory. I also have plans to go to 8GB memory in the future.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ter1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm just using the latest drivers from creative from time to time for my x-fi under Vista. It's stable every time. 

 Just now, I installed the latest beta driver 0711 , everything's okay except when I start the RMAA, the application will crash, it's strange and I have no idea to that ... and can't do testings...

 Hope creative will release a new driver lately..._

 

You must have less than 2GB memory or running the 32 bit version. I have the 64 bit version & 4GB memory.


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Linked tests perfectly overlap with old tests, No differences at all here. Are you sure you posted the correct graphs?? Never mind the test results exactly the same also._

 

What?
 - different line-out caps (not the normal conventional type)
 - different op amp
 - no component details, sort of a "blind test" experiment
 - you sure you didn't have too much wine with your dinner?


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bichi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What?
 - different line-out caps (not the normal conventional type)
 - different op amp
 - no component details, sort of a "blind test" experiment
 - you sure you didn't have too much wine with your dinner?_

 

compared to the results you got with the previous tests with the LME49720. The graphs perfectly overlay. I went back forth several times & not even one spike changed in size or position.


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_compared to the results you got with the previous tests with the LME49720. The graphs perfectly overlay. I went back forth several times & not even one spike changed in size or position._

 

Thanks again for your analysis!
 Following configuration used to produce those RMAA results:
 - LME49860 installed
 - tantalum 22uf @ 16vdc for Line-Out coupling
 - tantalum 4.7uf @ 35vdc for Line-In coupling

Tantalum vs Polarized Electrolytic (same values):
 Frequency response (from 40 Hz to 15 kHz), dB +0.02, -0.16 (+0.02, -0.18)
 Noise level, dB (A) -101.9 (-101.9)
 Dynamic range, dB (A) 101.9 (101.9)
 THD, % 0.0020  (0.0014)
 THD + Noise, dB (A) -90.3 (-92.2)
 IMD + Noise, % 0.0037 (0.0029)
 Stereo crosstalk, dB -97.1 (-96.4)
 IMD at 10 kHz, % 0.0088 (0.0058)

 - fraction flatter, and fraction less crosstalk with tantalum coupling.
 - fractionally worse on THDs and IMD.
 - surprising result for me, since conventional thinking shuns tantalum audio coupling...

 Sonically, tantalum coupling seem to deliver more bass, but a taste "muddier" and clear, well defined highs.
 - overall, both are pleasing to listen to...
 - if forced to choose for a design, at this point, polarized electrolytics. (still have to test direct, NP, metal film)

*EDIT:* Germanium's RMAA re-analysis pending, due to his, umm, low wireless mouse battery?


----------



## germanium

Went back & looked again & I don't know why but when I clicked on the graphs before it showed no difference but I finally by continuing with the overlay sceme can now very clearly see a difference. Lower noise & distortion in the 048b file than the 028b file. 

 I must have had 2 of the same files open & didn't realize it as I could switch back & forth ad noseum & there was no diference at all


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Went back & looked again & I don't know why but when I clicked on the graphs before it showed no difference but I finally by continuing with the overlay sceme can now very clearly see a difference. Lower noise & distortion in the 048b file than the 028b file. 
 I must have had 2 of the same files open & didn't realize it as I could switch back & forth ad noseum & there was no diference at all_

 

assquack!
 - LMAO!
 - will call and yell at you later this evening and sort this out ....


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bichi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_assquack!
 - LMAO!
 - will call and yell at you later this evening and sort this out ...._

 

going to get something to eat be back in an hour or so.


----------



## germanium

Pics of Modded X-Fi Elite Pro

http://www.esnips.com/web/ModdedX-Fipics


----------



## LawnGnome

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Pics of Modded X-Fi Elite Pro

http://www.esnips.com/web/ModdedX-Fipics_

 

Those leads are insane, and go against one of the most basic rules about capacitors.

 Those things would be beacons for interference in your computer.

 Those leads most definitely eliminate the positive effect those caps could of had.

 Not to mention you had to solder extra lead on to get it long enough.


 Sorry to say, but a good capacitor with a crappy utilization is no benefit. And that is one of the worst examples of this I've seen.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LawnGnome* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Those leads are insane, and go against one of the most basic rules about capacitors.

 Those things would be beacons for interference in your computer.

 Those leads most definitely eliminate the positive effect those caps could of had.

 Not to mention you had to solder extra lead on to get it long enough.


 Sorry to say, but a good capacitor with a crappy utilization is no benefit. And that is one of the worst examples of this I've seen._

 

The proof is in the sound, isn't it??
 I assure you the sound is glorious. The spectrum analysis shows almost no noise added & it still specs at better than 116db S/N ratio. So much for theory. It is always prctical experiance that counts, isn't it?


----------



## soloz2

at least use some heatshrink to insulate those leads!


----------



## LawnGnome

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The proof is in the sound, isn't it??
 I assure you the sound is glorious. The spectrum analysis shows almost no noise added & it still specs at better than 116db S/N ratio. So much for theory. It is always prctical experiance that counts, isn't it?_

 

Then where are the graphs comparing before and after?

 "the proof is in the sound" means nothing. There is no proof in that unless you have done blind testing.

 The ESR and inductance now present because of how you implemented those caps probably makes it higher than a high quality electrolytic or polymer with proper length leads.

 Also, the statement saying practical experience is better over theory is crap. Thank god the world's science community doesn't have that attitude, or we definitely would not be as advanced as we are today.


----------



## Yukon Trooper

*FLAMEEEE WAAARRRR!!!!*


----------



## LawnGnome

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yukon Trooper* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_



*FLAMEEEE WAAARRRR!!!!*



_

 

Please don't.


----------



## Yukon Trooper

Sorry. Maybe I have a bad habit of pointing out the obvious.

 @ germanium - perhaps you could do a blind test with a couple of friends to make LawnGnome a happy camper.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LawnGnome* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Then where are the graphs comparing before and after?

 "the proof is in the sound" means nothing. There is no proof in that unless you have done blind testing.

 The ESR and inductance now present because of how you implemented those caps probably makes it higher than a high quality electrolytic or polymer with proper length leads.

 Also, the statement saying practical experience is better over theory is crap. Thank god the world's science community doesn't have that attitude, or we definitely would not be as advanced as we are today._

 

It may be true that the science community isn't overly dogmatic after all that is how we got the advances we did. It is not science when one only seeks to disprove the ideas of others. I have seen this all to often. For example I find much adu about why delta sigma DACs shouldn't be even mediocre yet there are excellent examples of the same out there that put 99% of the old ladder type DACs to shame. It is only a few very very expensive DACs of the ladder type that can beat highend delta sigma in performance. Even mediocre delta sigma can beat most highend ladder DACs performance wise. All this was done in a very scholarly looking style. Does that make it so?? Absolutely not!!!!!

 I go by my own experience as to what works for me. Will everyone like the sound , probably not. But will most people like it? I would say yes.

 I have had compliments on the sound of my system when it was not even as good as it is now from someone just passing though my room where it was setup before. They told me they could tell the sound was really special that it didn't sound like it was coming from the speakers at all. Isn't that what stereo was originally meant to do? Yet I find all too lacking these days. 

 No I didn't provide RMAA results but let me assure you there was really nothing outragously wrong with them & I was honest that there was a few new spikes in the noise floor in the upper mids & lower treble but not of any sufficient value to even come close to being a problem. The tests still came out with better than 116db S/N ratio & dynamic range so what is the problem LawnGnome? All the distortion plots were so close you would have had to use a magnifier to see any diference at all.

 The reason I haven't posted new tests is I've been enjoying the sound so much that I have been listening to music almost nonstop for the whole remainder of the weakend.


----------



## germanium

Here is those tests with those big fat knarly interference grabbers you think I have LawnGnome

http://www.esnips.com/web/Testswith12ufcaps

 A whole lot of interference huh!! -135 db at worst. I don't really see a problem there. do you??

 Other specs of interest
 Noise -116.5
 Dynamics 116.4
 THD .0007%
 IMD .0010% 
 IMD swept .0008%
 Crosstalk at 1KHz -113.7


----------



## holland

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Pics of Modded X-Fi Elite Pro

http://www.esnips.com/web/ModdedX-Fipics_

 


 What's the pic of the front of the board? It's not a steady pic so I can't make out what it is that's supposed to be shown.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *holland* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What's the pic of the front of the board? It's not a steady pic so I can't make out what it is that's supposed to be shown._

 

The removed caps that now have wire in thier place


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yukon Trooper* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sorry. Maybe I have a bad habit of pointing out the obvious.

 @ germanium - perhaps you could do a blind test with a couple of friends to make LawnGnome a happy camper._

 

Can't really do that as I don't have a stock card nor the means to conduct such a test. Also soldering & desoldering on these boards is murder on them which is what I would have to de currently to a test & that would not fit into the testing requirements as it would take too long.


----------



## LawnGnome

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Here is those tests with those big fat knarly interference grabbers you think I have LawnGnome

http://www.esnips.com/web/Testswith12ufcaps

 A whole lot of interference huh!! -135 db at worst. I don't really see a problem there. do you??

 Other specs of interest
 Noise -116.5
 Dynamics 116.4
 THD .0007%
 IMD .0010% 
 IMD swept .0008%
 Crosstalk at 1KHz -113.7_

 

Single results don't prove anything. You need to posts results before those caps were installed to see a difference.

 The results from before the mod would be considered the baseline. You need a baseline for a comparison.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LawnGnome* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Single results don't prove anything. You need to posts results before those caps were installed to see a difference.

 The results from before the mod would be considered the baseline. You need a baseline for a comparison._

 

They have already been posted. I have posted lots of results previously. Check my previous posts. These tests are good enough in & of themselves to show nothings really badly wrong& that is what you seemed to be concerned about anyway wasn't it?


----------



## LawnGnome

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_They have already been posted. I have posted lots of results previously. Check my previous posts._

 

Yes, but which results are the ones directly before adding those capacitors?

 I tried looking through your esnips, but can't figure out which is which.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LawnGnome* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes, but which results are the ones directly before adding those capacitors?

 I tried looking through your esnips, but can't figure out which is which._

 

All the ones before these are before the big caps were added


----------



## ter1

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Here is those tests with those big fat knarly interference grabbers you think I have LawnGnome

http://www.esnips.com/web/Testswith12ufcaps

 A whole lot of interference huh!! -135 db at worst. I don't really see a problem there. do you??

 Other specs of interest
 Noise -116.5
 Dynamics 116.4
 THD .0007%
 IMD .0010% 
 IMD swept .0008%
 Crosstalk at 1KHz -113.7_

 

definitely, the RMAA results will beat the analog out of every other cards in the world. Even Lynx 2 do not have such good result. That's all...

 If the spikes can be removed by some ways, that will be perfect!!

 You're still using ESR papers after the 12uf? What's the signal line for your front-out and line-in loop?


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ter1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_definitely, the RMAA results will beat the analog out of every other cards in the world. Even Lynx 2 do not have such good result. That's all...

 If the spikes can be removed by some ways, that will be perfect!!

 You're still using ESR papers after the 12uf? What's the signal line for your front-out and line-in loop?_

 

I have never used ESR paper


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ter1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_definitely, the RMAA results will beat the analog out of every other cards in the world. Even Lynx 2 do not have such good result. That's all...

 If the spikes can be removed by some ways, that will be perfect!!

 You're still using ESR papers after the 12uf? What's the signal line for your front-out and line-in loop?_

 

Will work on that this weekend as far as getting rid of the spikes. They technically really aren't a problem as they are so low in level. The sound is absolutely incredable though as it is. No conjested sounds whatsoever even on songs that had always seemed conjested before on my previous soundcards & CD players. This soundcard has amazing potential. 

 Still having minor issues with the drivers for Vista. The mixer settings don't always sinc up with what is shown by the operating system & that sometimes makes testing very difficult as the level will show low but the sound is being clipped. I sometime have to fiddle with it for 1/2 hour to get one good reading. When set right it measures very well though as you can see from the tests. This is only an issue on the record side of the mixer, not the playback.

 As far as the spikes I believe raising the caps off the board slightly will take care of the spikes. especially the one near the PCI slot.

 I'm using a about a 6 inch loopback cable from Radioshack for testing purposes.


----------



## LawnGnome

Bypassed the DAC power caps for the DACs analog and digital power section with 6.3v 100uF SMD ceramics, as well as the APU power cap.

 The DAC is what is holding us back, and its not performing up to its max.


----------



## LawnGnome

Well I installed the AD8066AR, Thank goodness I like this opamp.

 Not quite as detailed as the burrbrown opamps. More intense sounding than the OPA2132, but not as much as the other BB opamp I tried.

 But the soundstage on this one is much improved.

 Good thing, since I think that was the last opamp swap those smd pads can handle.


----------



## germanium

Post number 500. Made it to 500 in my first year.


 Enjoying the modded X-Fi Elite pro much. Can't stop listening to the music.


----------



## bichi

Finally, got some time to do "shorted" Line-Out cap testing.
 - includes both power and coupling cap modifications and will post details soon.
 - XP SP2
 - X-FI Driver: v5.12.6.1187; 08/17/06

 SB0460 - LME49860 Installed - Socketed:
 - SOIC op amp - LINE-OUT, C23, C50, C76, C77 (shorted, 100ohm SMT)
 - LINE-IN, C48, C49 (Panasonic S, 10uf @ 16vdc SMT)
 - AUX-IN, C102, C104 (Panasonic S, 10uf @ 16vdc SMT)

 Line-Out, with sleeve as ground, no-load, caps shorted: -0.253vdc DC bias. (could cause a problem with direct amps)
 With coupling caps installed, +0.029vdc DC bias. Measured with Fluke 97-2.

 Small gain loss, about 0.2db, when setting output for RMAA test, compared to cap-coupled.

 RMAA v6.0.5 Results, 44/24/48, comparing shorted vs., cap-coupled (33uf):

 Frequency response (from 40 Hz to 15 kHz), dB +0.01, -0.08 (+0.01, -0.08)
 Noise level, dB (A) -101.7 (-101.8)
 Dynamic range, dB (A) 101.7 (101.7)
 THD, % 0.0019 (0.0014)
 THD + Noise, dB (A) -90.4 (-92.2)
 IMD + Noise, % 0.0034 (0.0029)
 Stereo crosstalk, dB -99.5 (-98.6)
 IMD at 10 kHz, % 0.0068 (0.0062)

 Sounds clean, even, high definition, without audible peaking. Very nice and well balanced... 

 Any cautions with newest Creative beta driver, v20070827?
http://connect.creativelabs.com/beta/default.aspx

 Picture:
http://www.esnips.com/doc/beb79ee4-b.../X-FI-MOD-055b

 RMAA v6.0.5 TEST Results: (shows 44/16/44 - 44/16/48 - 44/24/48 - 96/24/96)
 Summaries: http://www.esnips.com/doc/73d6220a-c.../X-FI-MOD-056b
 Details: http://www.esnips.com/doc/dd1f7592-a.../X-FI-MOD-057b


----------



## ter1

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Post number 500. Made it to 500 in my first year.


 Enjoying the modded X-Fi Elite pro much. Can't stop listening to the music._

 

Do you suggest using the (modded) x-fi ep with Gigaworks S750?

http://www.guru3d.com/article/sound/194/1/

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/mul...orks-s750.html

 should be perfect with s750, but hard to mod all the 7.1 channels on x-fi card...


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ter1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Do you suggest using the (modded) x-fi ep with Gigaworks S750?

http://www.guru3d.com/article/sound/194/1/

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/mul...orks-s750.html

 should be perfect with s750, but hard to mod all the 7.1 channels on x-fi card... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I honestly have not heard them so I cannot comment on them. I use modified professional biamped nearfield monitors from M-Audio (model BX5 Modifications are made with my own ideas) & Tannoy Ts10subwoofer.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bichi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Finally, got some time to do "shorted" Line-Out cap testing.
 - includes both power and coupling cap modifications and will post details soon.
 - XP SP2
 - X-FI Driver: v5.12.6.1187; 08/17/06

 SB0460 - LME49860 Installed - Socketed:
 - SOIC op amp - LINE-OUT, C23, C50, C76, C77 (shorted, 100ohm SMT)
 - LINE-IN, C48, C49 (Panasonic S, 10uf @ 16vdc SMT)
 - AUX-IN, C102, C104 (Panasonic S, 10uf @ 16vdc SMT)

 Line-Out, with sleeve as ground, no-load, caps shorted: -0.253vdc DC bias. (could cause a problem with direct amps)
 With coupling caps installed, +0.029vdc DC bias. Measured with Fluke 97-2.

 Small gain loss, about 0.2db, when setting output for RMAA test, compared to cap-coupled.

 RMAA v6.0.5 Results, 44/24/48, comparing shorted vs., cap-coupled (33uf):

 Frequency response (from 40 Hz to 15 kHz), dB +0.01, -0.08 (+0.01, -0.08)
 Noise level, dB (A) -101.7 (-101.8)
 Dynamic range, dB (A) 101.7 (101.7)
 THD, % 0.0019 (0.0014)
 THD + Noise, dB (A) -90.4 (-92.2)
 IMD + Noise, % 0.0034 (0.0029)
 Stereo crosstalk, dB -99.5 (-98.6)
 IMD at 10 kHz, % 0.0068 (0.0062)

 Sounds clean, even, high definition, without audible peaking. Very nice and well balanced... 

 Any cautions with newest Creative beta driver, v20070827?
http://connect.creativelabs.com/beta/default.aspx

 Picture:
http://www.esnips.com/doc/beb79ee4-b.../X-FI-MOD-055b

 RMAA v6.0.5 TEST Results: (shows 44/16/44 - 44/16/48 - 44/24/48 - 96/24/96)
 Summaries: http://www.esnips.com/doc/73d6220a-c.../X-FI-MOD-056b
 Details: http://www.esnips.com/doc/dd1f7592-a.../X-FI-MOD-057b_

 

Only signicant harmonic that increased was the second harmonic as expected, All other are either the same or lower.

 IMD swept did seem to increase across the board. It seems related to the increased second harmonic distortion however when you look at the IMD spectrum analysis. You will notice that the IMD & IMD swept increased by approximately the same amount as the THD & the THD increase was 100% second harmonic only increase. While I wasn't quite expecting an increase in IMD I was expecting the THD increase & the fact that it was solely second harmonic increase &that the IMD in fact mirrored that increase.

 frequency response slightly improved with D.C. coupling.

 Crosstalk definately improved toward higher frequencies especially.

 Difference in dynamic range though visable is too hard to tell which is better by the graph.

 Overall even though there is a slight increase in distortion there is an overall more optimal distortion characteristic than the cap coupled cousin.

 Lastly you D.C. offset seems higher than usual at least compared to what I've seen with the stock opamp


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Only signicant harmonic that increased was the second harmonic as expected, All other are either the same or lower.
 IMD swept did seem to increase across the board. It seems related to the increased second harmonic distortion however when you look at the IMD spectrum analysis. You will notice that the IMD & IMD swept increased by approximately the same amount as the THD & the THD increase was 100% second harmonic only increase. While I wasn't quite expecting an increase in IMD I was expecting the THD increase & the fact that it was solely second harmonic increase &that the IMD in fact mirrored that increase.
 frequency response slightly improved with D.C. coupling.
 Crosstalk definately improved toward higher frequencies especially.
 Difference in dynamic range though visable is too hard to tell which is better by the graph.
 Overall even though there is a slight increase in distortion there is an overall more optimal distortion characteristic than the cap coupled cousin.
 Lastly you D.C. offset seems higher than usual at least compared to what I've seen with the stock opamp_

 

Thank you for the excellent analysis, as usual!
 - will have to think about the (-0.253vdc) DC bias, with shorted Line-Out coupling caps....
 - package in the mail to you tomorrow...
 - check out next post... (dang OSCON solids might be a good thing for audio power caps...)


----------



## bichi

Sept 14, 2007 - SB0460
 - Test OSCON Polymer ultra-low ESR/Impedance for noise reduction over low-ESR type.
 - Change: C46, OSCON F8, 330uf @ 6.3vdc from Panasonic FC, 220uf @ 16vdc [size=xx-small]_<-- (see note below)_[/size]
 - Change: C177, OSCON F8, 330uf @ 6.3vdc from Panasonic FK 1500uf SMT @ 16vdc
_
 [size=xx-small]*note:* 6.3vdc voltage rating margin too low for +5vdc environment and not recommended. Part was on hand from samples and installed for experimental purposes.[/size]_

 Got a bit of noise and IMD improvement....
 And the sound quality, OooLaaLaa!

 48/24/48 - Comparsion with OSCON solid-polymer power caps vs., low-ESR, similar to Panasonic FC/FK, same configuration:
 Frequency response (from 40 Hz to 15 kHz), dB +0.01, -0.08 (+0.01, -0.09)
 Noise level, dB (A) -101.7 (-101.6)
 Dynamic range, dB (A) 101.7 (101.5)
 THD, %  0.0014 (0.0015)
 THD + Noise, dB (A) -92.3 (-91.6)
 IMD + Noise, % 0.0029 (0.0033)
 Stereo crosstalk, dB -98.4  (-98.3)
 IMD at 10 kHz, % 0.0063  (0.0073)

 Picture:
http://www.esnips.com/doc/cef37c13-2.../X-FI-MOD-058b

 RMAA v6.0.5 Results:
 Summary: http://www.esnips.com/doc/daeb977a-8.../X-FI-MOD-059b
 Details: http://www.esnips.com/doc/122b8afc-c.../X-FI-MOD-060b


----------



## the.oldman

Okay first time poster and sound card modder here
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 so howdy everyone. I followed the mod changing out the the cap for the 2200uf 16v blackgate and it works noticed a differance imediatly
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 .Im going to wait for burn in before I change the opamps out so I can see/hear for a differance. My other card I just shielded no other mod and I can hear a differance also softer sounding warmer I can crankit without any annoying sounds like b4. I noticed bichi has used differant caps smaller I think panasonics? any differance Im asking because the blackate is huge and I dont like it hanging all out I cant stand it up I have no room.


----------



## Yukon Trooper

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *the.oldman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Okay first time poster and sound card modder here
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 so howdy everyone. I followed the mod changing out the the cap for the 2200uf 16v blackgate and it works noticed a differance imediatly
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 .Im going to wait for burn in before I change the opamps out so I can see/hear for a differance. My other card I just shielded no other mod and I can hear a differance also softer sounding warmer I can crankit without any annoying sounds like b4. I noticed bichi has used differant caps smaller I think panasonics? any differance Im asking because the blackate is huge and I dont like it hanging all out I cant stand it up I have no room._

 

You can bend the Black Gate over without any ill effects. However you won't be able to if you've already made the leads very short obviously.


----------



## LawnGnome

Well, my card setup is doing really nice right now. The AD8066 sounds great, very quick opamp when compared to the slow slew rate of the recommended national opamp. (180v/µs vs 20v/µs)

 I should hopefully have some Chemicon PSA series polymer caps coming soon to put in the analog section.


----------



## LawnGnome

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *the.oldman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Okay first time poster and sound card modder here
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 so howdy everyone. I followed the mod changing out the the cap for the 2200uf 16v blackgate and it works noticed a differance imediatly
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 .Im going to wait for burn in before I change the opamps out so I can see/hear for a differance. My other card I just shielded no other mod and I can hear a differance also softer sounding warmer I can crankit without any annoying sounds like b4. I noticed bichi has used differant caps smaller I think panasonics? any differance Im asking because the blackate is huge and I dont like it hanging all out I cant stand it up I have no room._

 

I'd save your money and get panasonic FM capacitors instead. The blackgates aren't really needed in most of the positions on the card.

 Only possible place you could benefit from them is in the coupling stage.

 I'd have to say I doubt the cap change for the APU with the blackgate would make an audible difference, if ANY at all.

 That cap smooths the voltage going to the APU, which is 100% digital. The only way the blackgate would make a difference is your psu has bad voltage regulation which was making its way to the card, and it was bad enough to make the APU create processing errors. And if that happened, you would most likely get crashes. 

 I'm also pretty sure the x-fi APU implements error checking and correction.

 The replacement of that cap is more for reliability and not performance.


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *the.oldman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_"...I noticed bichi has used differant caps smaller I think panasonics? any differance Im asking because the blackate is huge and I dont like it hanging all out I cant stand it up I have no room._

 

Welcome to the monkey-house!

 - Experimental stuff I am doing, so don't pay too much attention to parts I am using, relative to parts recommended in this thread. My parts change every other day or so....

 Some notes/suggestions:
 - Diameter for C177 (power cap) on an SB0460 is 10mm (0.40inch), for it to fit, standing up.
 - PCI interslot spacing is about 15mm (0.60inch), so try to say below 14mm (0.55inch) height.

 - Most suggest Blackgates, but even an "N," 470uf @ 16vdc is 16x24mm and "standard" 2200uf @ 16vdc is 16x31.5mm.
 - Mounting and keeping leads short as possible is the "creative" part...

 - Power capacitor(s) I am currently playing with are Sanyo OSCON series, which are "solid polymer" electrolytics.
 - OSCON part with highest value for "drop-in," would be SEP series, 330uf @ 16vdc, F13 size.

 Selection of capacitor type is subjective and depends on your tastes, budget, etc...

 Theory: (per Sanyo OSCON "Technical Marketechture...")
 - objective is to attenuate as much power-supply noise with lowest ESR/Impedance.
 - OSCON's pack more capacitance in smaller packages, with extremely low ESR/Impedance, compared to any aluminum or tantalum electrolytics.
 - due to polymer electrolytic and its ESR abilities, theory says a 330uf OSCON is more effective than a 2000uf aluminum.
 - (thus, all the fun testing...)

 As an alternative, Panasonic, Elna, Nippon-Chemicon, etc., all make excellent low-ESR aluminum capacitors.
 (Panasonic FK SMT specs below, as an example)
 - had a Panasonic FK series, SMT, 1500uf @ 16vdc, (12.5x13.5mm), installed, on its side, prior to current experimental OSCON. (lower right corner) http://www.esnips.com/doc/beb79ee4-b.../X-FI-MOD-055b

_REFs:
 Blackgate: http://www.kyoto-electro.com/nx.html
 OSCON Characteristics: http://us.sanyo.com/industrial/elect...n_noisecap.pdf
 OSCON Size Charts: http://us.sanyo.com/industrial/elect...ystemtable.pdf
 Panasonic FK SMT: http://industrial.panasonic.com/www-...BA0000CE88.pdf_


----------



## LawnGnome

Don't forget Nichicon or Rubycon!

 The Rubycon MCZ series is supposed to match the ESR performance of OSCONs.


----------



## the.oldman

Hey Lawngnome well it may be my psu I power z5500's and I can set my volume lower yet it seems louder and cleaner. Call me a crack head I know I want improvement
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 .The extreme music card Is my frankenstein my Fatality gamer will be my tru mod with pre testing and such b4 I claim victory. I dwnloaded RMMA 6.0.5 now I just have to figure out how to use it correctly.
 Yukon T I did bend it over, b4 doing the cap changeout I measured my space so I knew going in it was going to be tight so I left the leads long to bend over the opposite way to what everyone else has but thats the only way itll fit. Bichi keep up the good work Because Ill probally copy /follow you down the same path of changing and rechanging things out to allways get better. ***actually it may be my motherboard its a chainteck vn4 ultra which I regrett ever getting but Im riding this pony into the ground untill the end of the year when I upgrade**


----------



## LawnGnome

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *the.oldman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey Lawngnome well it may be my psu I power z5500's and I can set my volume lower yet it seems louder and cleaner. Call me a crack head I know I want improvement
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 .The extreme music card Is my frankenstein my Fatality gamer will be my tru mod with pre testing and such b4 I claim victory. I dwnloaded RMMA 6.0.5 now I just have to figure out how to use it correctly.
 Yukon T I did bend it over, b4 doing the cap changeout I measured my space so I knew going in it was going to be tight so I left the leads long to bend over the opposite way to what everyone else has but thats the only way itll fit. Bichi keep up the good work Because Ill probally copy /follow you down the same path of changing and rechanging things out to allways get better. ***actually it may be my motherboard its a chainteck vn4 ultra which I regrett ever getting but Im riding this pony into the ground untill the end of the year when I upgrade**_

 

If that's the case, then I'd order a bunch of different opamps from texas instruments and analog devices (they both have 100% free samples) and do some swapping of the opamps. Since that will be where the big improvement comes from.

 Then, once you have an opamp you like, then start swapping caps. With the cap mods, your squeezing the rest of the performance out of the amp and DAC.


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *the.oldman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_"...Bichi keep up the good work Because Ill probally copy /follow you down the same path of changing and 
 rechanging things out to allways get better..."_

 

Yeah? one more note/suggestion:
 - Op Amp SOCKET/PLUG!
 - got mine from local tech surplus, but can be purchased from Digikey.
 - SMT pads are strong enough for SOIC type socket insertion/de-insertion forces, compared to DIP8 type sockets.
 - if you have steady hands/tools, buying "headers" with more pins and cutting is cheaper.
 - example: Header 20pins ($4.40) = 2 x 8-pin headers. (destroy 2-pins when cutting in half + 2 "awww sheeit" safety pins) 

 SAMTEC
 SOCKET: (.050" (1.27mm))
 CLP Series: Positions: 8 - Digikey PN: SAM1154-04-ND ($4.33)

 HEADER: (Micro Strips)
 FTS Series, Surface Mount: Positions: 8 - Digikey PN: SAM1159-04-ND ($3.80)
 FTSH Series, Surface Mount: Positions: 8 - Digikey PN: SAM1161-04-ND ($3.80) a bit longer, but easier to handle

 Digikey Catalog, Samtec section: http://dkc3.digikey.com/PDF/T073/0118-0119.pdf

 Op Amp SOIC Socket Hack Pictures:
http://www.esnips.com/doc/90a2332b-8.../X-FI-MOD-032b
http://www.esnips.com/doc/f87daa51-8.../X-FI-MOD-033b
http://www.esnips.com/doc/87ab1b96-f.../X-FI-MOD-033c


----------



## bichi

Comparison between "common" LM358D op amp and newest LME49860
 - a bit of afternoon fun...
 - does not sound as bad as RMAA results imply...

 48/24/48 - LM358D (2005?) vs., LME49860 (July 2007)
 Frequency response (from 40 Hz to 15 kHz), dB +0.01, -0.08 (+0.01, -0.08)
 Noise level, dB (A) -100.8 (-101.7)
 Dynamic range, dB (A) 100.9 (101.7)
 THD, % 0.015 (0.0014) 
 THD + Noise, dB (A) -75.1 (-92.3) 
 IMD + Noise, % 0.019 (0.0029)
 Stereo crosstalk, dB -97.4 (-98.4)
 IMD at 10 kHz, % 0.172 (0.0063)
 General performance: Very good (Excellent)

 REF: LM358D Datasheet:
http://www.national.com/ds.cgi/LM/LM158.pdf

 RMAA TEST Results:
 Summary: http://www.esnips.com/doc/6c48c141-1.../X-FI-MOD-061b
 Detail: http://www.esnips.com/doc/fa885135-e.../X-FI-MOD-062b


----------



## LawnGnome

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bichi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Comparison between "common" LM358D op amp and newest LME49860
 - a bit of afternoon fun...
 - does not sound as bad as RMAA results imply...

 48/24/48 - LM358D (2005?) vs., LME49860 (July 2007)
 Frequency response (from 40 Hz to 15 kHz), dB +0.01, -0.08 (+0.01, -0.08)
 Noise level, dB (A) -100.8 (-101.7)
 Dynamic range, dB (A) 100.9 (101.7)
 THD, % 0.015 (0.0014) 
 THD + Noise, dB (A) -75.1 (-92.3) 
 IMD + Noise, % 0.019 (0.0029)
 Stereo crosstalk, dB -97.4 (-98.4)
 IMD at 10 kHz, % 0.172 (0.0063)
 General performance: Very good (Excellent)

 REF: LM358D Datasheet:
http://www.national.com/ds.cgi/LM/LM158.pdf

 RMAA TEST Results:
 Summary: http://www.esnips.com/doc/6c48c141-1.../X-FI-MOD-061b
 Detail: http://www.esnips.com/doc/fa885135-e.../X-FI-MOD-062b_

 


 Just a quick question, why would you install that chip?

 Its specs don't look good, and it doesn't even list slew rate or settling time.

 Was it just to test?


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bichi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Comparison between "common" LM358D op amp and newest LME49860
 - a bit of afternoon fun...
 - does not sound as bad as RMAA results imply...

 48/24/48 - LM358D (2005?) vs., LME49860 (July 2007)
 Frequency response (from 40 Hz to 15 kHz), dB +0.01, -0.08 (+0.01, -0.08)
 Noise level, dB (A) -100.8 (-101.7)
 Dynamic range, dB (A) 100.9 (101.7)
 THD, % 0.015 (0.0014) 
 THD + Noise, dB (A) -75.1 (-92.3) 
 IMD + Noise, % 0.019 (0.0029)
 Stereo crosstalk, dB -97.4 (-98.4)
 IMD at 10 kHz, % 0.172 (0.0063)
 General performance: Very good (Excellent)

 REF: LM358D Datasheet:
http://www.national.com/ds.cgi/LM/LM158.pdf

 RMAA TEST Results:
 Summary: http://www.esnips.com/doc/6c48c141-1.../X-FI-MOD-061b
 Detail: http://www.esnips.com/doc/fa885135-e.../X-FI-MOD-062b_

 

THD & IMD distortion almost off the charts. At least the THD has a general good direction in that it goes down as the order of harmonic goes up but that is about all I can say good about it.

 The IMD swept is way out there. It is -60db at 10KHZ but skyrockets from there to -42db at 20KHz & -16db at 44KHz. Seeing as how these are for intermodulation products from such high IMD even that far above the audio band can dump back into the audio band. Fortunately as the IMD spectrum shows they seem to track with the harmonics of the 7KHz signal & continue only upwards & not downward into the heart of the midrange. This may be the reason that Bichi didn't report really bad sound in spite of the outragious distortion pattern. A different IMD test signal though could alter that though.

 Noise look resonable but slight increse.

 Same for Dynamics, No visable harmonics on either but slight increase in noise.

 Very slight improvement in crosstalk at the midband but worse as you go higher.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bichi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sept 14, 2007 - SB0460
 - Test OSCON Polymer ultra-low ESR/Impedance for noise reduction over low-ESR type.
 - Change: C46, OSCON F8, 330uf @ 6.3vdc from Panasonic FC, 220uf @ 16vdc [size=xx-small]<-- (see note below)[/size]
 - Change: C177, OSCON F8, 330uf @ 6.3vdc from Panasonic FK 1500uf SMT @ 16vdc

 [size=xx-small]*note:* 6.3vdc voltage rating margin too low for +5vdc environment and not recommended. Part was on hand from samples and installed for experimental purposes.[/size]

 Got a bit of noise and IMD improvement....
 And the sound quality, OooLaaLaa!

 48/24/48 - Comparsion with OSCON solid-polymer power caps vs., low-ESR, similar to Panasonic FC/FK, same configuration:
 Frequency response (from 40 Hz to 15 kHz), dB +0.01, -0.08 (+0.01, -0.09)
 Noise level, dB (A) -101.7 (-101.6)
 Dynamic range, dB (A) 101.7 (101.5)
 THD, %  0.0014 (0.0015)
 THD + Noise, dB (A) -92.3 (-91.6)
 IMD + Noise, % 0.0029 (0.0033)
 Stereo crosstalk, dB -98.4  (-98.3)
 IMD at 10 kHz, % 0.0063  (0.0073)

 Picture:
http://www.esnips.com/doc/cef37c13-2.../X-FI-MOD-058b

 RMAA v6.0.5 Results:
 Summary: http://www.esnips.com/doc/daeb977a-8.../X-FI-MOD-059b
 Details: http://www.esnips.com/doc/122b8afc-c.../X-FI-MOD-060b_

 

Slight improvement in even low order THD ,less improvement on low odd order THD. Mixed bag above 5th order THD. Overall better though.

 Too close to call on the noise graphs by sight. Have to take RMAA word on the improvement.

 IMD spectrum very close but slightly improved with new caps. 

 IMD swept is very slightly higher according to the graphs, Strange as RMAA gives the new caps a better score than the old ones.

 Getting tired Accidently closed the wrong windows

 Hope this is what you were looking for Bichi.


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_"...Hope this is what you were looking for Bichi..."_

 

Yep, perfect, Much Thanks!
 - finding similiar anomolies between simple RMAA tests, Bruel-Kjaer tests and theoretical simulations.
 - of interest, at the moment, is harmonic/reasonant-coupling of all the PC switching supplies.
 - including the local switcher supplying the SB0460 CA20K1.
 - appears its "buck-noise" is coupling to the SB0460 ground plane and causing crap to appear in analog sections, above 32khz.
 - OSCON's seem to have notched most of the parasitics down, by about -5 to -8db, depending on harmonic frequency.
 - LM385 was to set "worst case" model reference and behavior template.

 back to FFT's, Bode's and sims....
 - hope you manage to get your backup card and sockets installed.
 - would be interesting if I could send you "mystery" op amps and give you an additional headache. LOL
 - and rock on with your "long leaded" by-pass stuff... planning to do a "long-lead" experiment to see interactions/coupling dynamics in a few days...

 Picture: (new change: C72, OSCON 15uf @ 25vdc (-5vdc section)
http://www.esnips.com/doc/385fcb4e-9.../X-FI-MOD-063b


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ter1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_definitely, the RMAA results will beat the analog out of every other cards in the world. Even Lynx 2 do not have such good result. That's all...

 If the spikes can be removed by some ways, that will be perfect!!

 You're still using ESR papers after the 12uf? What's the signal line for your front-out and line-in loop?_

 

Tried lifting the caps off the board some but no difference. Interesting though is most of my D.C. offset disappeared with these caps. I have no explanation for this as it does not seem reasonable but it dropped from 100mV to less than 5mV. Distortion pattern remains the same though with high second order THD relatively speaking compared to stock, all others lower.


----------



## nysulli

finally got around to doing the mod, but just stuck with the L/R opamp for now

 lm4556 swap, bridged the coupling caps, replaced the power cap with a 1000uf muse KZ (its what I had spare from my millet MAX build)

 noise floor seems to be darker, sounds more crisp then before, cleaner, just a sharper, punchier sound with better seperation then before the mod, overall i'm really pleased with the mod for the ~1 hour and $1.50 it cost me

 after 2 hours of use, seems to be a bit more detail, hearing some things i didn't hear before, as well as some vocals that used to get lost in the song coming through a bit more


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nysulli* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_finally got around to doing the mod, but just stuck with the L/R opamp for now

 lm4556 swap, bridged the coupling caps, replaced the power cap with a 1000uf muse KZ (its what I had spare from my millet MAX build)

 noise floor seems to be darker, sounds more crisp then before, cleaner, just a sharper, punchier sound with better seperation then before the mod, overall i'm really pleased with the mod for the ~1 hour and $1.50 it cost me

 after 2 hours of use, seems to be a bit more detail, hearing some things i didn't hear before, as well as some vocals that used to get lost in the song coming through a bit more_

 

Congratulations. Sounds like it worked for you.


----------



## bichi

Did some verification fun on TI TPS54352 switching section, C177 cap change from low-ESR (Jamicon WL) to ultra-low ESR (OSCON).
 - both TI and OSCON discuss design differences between ultra-low ESR, as opposed to low-ESR. (see ref below)
 - did some simple validation with TI's design calcs, using Creative's 100uh inductor and guessing at the rest. (no public CA20K1 specs)
 - compared theoretical with practical measurements below:

 +1.2vdc waveforms, SB0460, C177, stock Jamicon WL 220uf @ 16vdc vs., OSCON 330uf @ 6.3vdc:
 - taken while WAV playing looped, output max'ed into 50ohm resistor load.
 - OSCON might be causing a bit of "ringing," compared to standard low-ESR.
 - will have measure with better scope and possibly change 100uh inductor to smaller value.
 - OSCON remains steady, while stock Jamicon "wanders" as load changes. (very small deltas, in reality)
 - OSCON does attenuate noise coupling on analog sections, small deltas...
 - did not find any "catastrophic" negative changes.
 - recommend staying with standard low-ESR caps for C177 for now.....

 Comparison Waveforms:
http://www.esnips.com/doc/23843031-4.../X-FI-MOD-064b

 REFS:
 TI TPS54352 Datasheet, pages 22~23
http://www.ti.com/lit/gpn/tps54352

 OSCON TechBook v14, pages 70~86
http://www.edc.sanyo.com/english/pdf/oscon/E70.pdf


----------



## bichi

Suspicions confirmed, not the best idea to replace C177 with ultra low-ESR type capacitor, equiv. to OSCON.
 - noticable effect from switching power supply, feeding CA20K1 and impact on analog sections.
 - issue is TI TPS54352 PWM and Creative designing for low-ESR and not ultra-low ESR capacitors.
 - requires different PWM inductor value, corner frequency, to match ultra-low ESR types.
 - sonically, both have excellent qualities and is tough to hear any difference...

 Other power caps, on linear regulators and power-in from PC bus, remain candidates for ultra-low ESR cap tweaks...

 RMAA Test Results comparing C177 - OSCON 330uf @ 6.3vdc vs., Panasonic FK, 1500uf @ 16vdc:
http://www.esnips.com/doc/800ccc44-3.../X-FI-MOD-065b


----------



## bichi

Mystery Op Amp
 - just a bit of evening fun
 - *Germanium,* care to take a crack at it?
 - will post op amp part number, after analysis...

 Picture:
http://www.esnips.com/doc/d4060c65-6.../X-FI-MOD-066b

 RMAA Test Results:
 Summary 48/24/48: http://www.esnips.com/doc/75b77315-8.../X-FI-MOD-067b
 Detail 48/24/48: http://www.esnips.com/doc/83411bbd-3.../X-FI-MOD-068b
 Detail 96/24/96: http://www.esnips.com/doc/6fe645db-d.../X-FI-MOD-069b


----------



## LawnGnome

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bichi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Mystery Op Amp
 - just a bit of evening fun
 - *Germanium,* care to take a crack at it?
 - will post op amp part number, after analysis...

 Picture:
http://www.esnips.com/doc/d4060c65-6.../X-FI-MOD-066b

 RMAA Test Results:
 Summary: http://www.esnips.com/doc/75b77315-8.../X-FI-MOD-067b
 Detail: http://www.esnips.com/doc/83411bbd-3.../X-FI-MOD-068b_

 

Why shield the top of the chip, when it has such excessively long, unprotected leads? Worst thing you could do if your worried about interference. 

 Leads are short for reasons.


----------



## ter1

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Tried lifting the caps off the board some but no difference. Interesting though is most of my D.C. offset disappeared with these caps. I have no explanation for this as it does not seem reasonable but it dropped from 100mV to less than 5mV. Distortion pattern remains the same though with high second order THD relatively speaking compared to stock, all others lower._

 


 Have you tried other methods to get the IMD spikes less eminent? Like shielding paper/cover? Replace to the 4 6.3v1000uf? 

 For THD, why there are spikes at 2k, 3k, 5k, etc? Any ways to reduce these?

 For crosstalk, why raised dramatically after 1kHz till 44kHz (-84dB)? Any way to get better results?

 It shows the left channel line and right channel line are not superimposed in graphs of your testing, and very clear in your crosstalk graph? Do you think it's caused by shorting the caps? Any suggestions?

 Thanks!


----------



## LawnGnome

I'm going to replace the clock crystal, with one with better tolerance and stability. Since the stock one probably isn't that great.

 FYI, if you want to do the same, the clock has a CL of 30pf. and needs to be 24.5760mhz.

 I'm getting a Fox one with 10ppm +/- tolerance, and a 30ppm +/- stability.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bichi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Mystery Op Amp
 - just a bit of evening fun
 - *Germanium,* care to take a crack at it?
 - will post op amp part number, after analysis...

 Picture:
http://www.esnips.com/doc/d4060c65-6.../X-FI-MOD-066b

 RMAA Test Results:
 Summary: http://www.esnips.com/doc/75b77315-8.../X-FI-MOD-067b
 Detail: http://www.esnips.com/doc/83411bbd-3.../X-FI-MOD-068b_

 

Comparing test 60b old to 68b newest.

 slightly higher even order THD in 68b compared to 60b but fewer high order spurie in 68b.

 According to graph slightly lower IMD swept in 68b.

 Slightly lower IMD in spectrum analysis.

 Noise & dynamics too close to call in graphs.

 Slightly better crosstalk at midband but worse at high frequencies.

 According to test analysis provided by RMAA they appear very evenly matched accross the board but graphs tell a slighly different story especially in IMD distortion where 68b definatly does better. I think the test interprets the even order THD increase as part of the IMD score but IMD swept & spectrum analysis are definately better in 68b according to the graphs.

 Wish you had done tests at 96KHz so I could see the higher order spurie but overall looks pretty good. Slightly higher THD but lower IMD distortion according to graphs.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ter1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Have you tried other methods to get the IMD spikes less eminent? Like shielding paper/cover? Replace to the 4 6.3v1000uf? 

 For THD, why there are spikes at 2k, 3k, 5k, etc? Any ways to reduce these?

 For crosstalk, why raised dramatically after 1kHz till 44kHz (-84dB)? Any way to get better results?

 It shows the left channel line and right channel line are not superimposed in graphs of your testing, and very clear in your crosstalk graph? Do you think it's caused by shorting the caps? Any suggestions?

 Thanks!_

 

The THD spikes at 2K, 3K & 5K while they can be reduced especially the 2K spike the overall spectrum always seems to stay about the same. Capacitor coupling reduces the 2K spike somewhat dramatically but increases the others slightly. Due to the increase in second order harmonics (the 2K spike) the overall score for THD is slightly worse but second order THD is really nothing to worry about. If you do a lot of reading about THD you will find that It is preferable to have higher second harmonic distortion & lower high order products. In my experiments the 3K & 5K distortion is actually lowered slightly by direct coupling. Only the second harmonic is higher.

 Crosstalk will almost always tilt up at high frequencies due to capacitive coupling. My crosstalk is actually substantially better across the board than creatives own tests for my card.

 The difference between channels for crosstalk is present in almost every graph I have seen & not just from my card. There is a slight difference in the frequence response of the left & right channels which developed after moving the capacitors around to different locations on the board that didn't originally exist & moving them back to the original locations did not fix it. originally after direct coupling both the DACs & the ADCs the specs were even & were +.01/-.05 but the left channel went back to +.01/-.07 & the right channel stayed at +.01/-.05. Don't ask me why because I don't know & all attempts to fix it failed but it still sounds very good none the less. bare in mind though these are really tiny differences.

 For some reason the big 12uf caps seems to have fixed the D.C. offset to where there is almost none where there was 100mV before, Again don't ask me why as this is very strange behavior but again welcome at the same time as there is no more pop when booting or shutting down.


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_"...Wish you had done tests at 96KHz so I could see the higher order spurie but overall looks pretty good. Slightly higher THD but lower IMD distortion according to graphs..."_

 

Your wish is my command
 - added RMAA 96/24/96 detailed results to "Mystery OpAmp," #1297


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bichi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Your wish is my command
 - added RMAA 96/24/96 detailed results to "Mystery OpAmp," #1297_

 

Specs don't look so good on IMD at 96KHz. Substantially worse compared to the IMD taken at 48KHz sample rate. Even at this level it is really meaningless as it is not likely to be heard by mere mortals like us.

 High order distortion spurie decreased @ 96KHz compared to 60b but IMD distortion increased @ 96KHz compared to 48KHz

 Did you change anything else between the 48KHz pass & the 96KHz pass??

 The 96KHz pass didn't seem to do too much better, very little improvement anywhere except above the audio band & that is only slight as far as THD is concerned.

 Cross talk better at midband than 60b test but like the 48KHz test worse at the high end.

 Nothing special to report on Noise or Dynamics. Both look very good & are too hard to tell which is better.

 By the way the MDR-D777LPs arent really worth the effort to modify. They are way too much midrange oriented. My modifications reduced the excessive warmth caused by the lower midband & upper bass but the area center around 1KHz still too emphasized. The high frquencies sound better modified & the bass is still very strong yet pretty well defined but that midband hump is just way over the top. It tries to drown everything else though not really successfull at it. In a word even at thier best very colored presentation. Looking forward to trying the Denon AH-D1001 or the Sony MDR-SA1000 earphones.


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_"...Did you change anything else between the 48KHz pass & the 96KHz pass??..."
 The 96KHz pass didn't seem to do too much better, very little improvement anywhere except above the audio band & that is only slight as far as THD is 
 concerned. Cross talk better at midband than 60b test but like the 48KHz test worse at the high end. Nothing special to report on Noise or Dynamics. Both look very good & are too hard to tell which is better..."

 By the way the MDR-D777LPs arent really worth the effort to modify. They are way too much midrange oriented. My modifications reduced the excessive warmth caused by the lower midband & upper bass but the area center around 1KHz still too emphasized. The high frquencies sound better modified & the 
 bass is still very strong yet pretty well defined but that midband hump is just way over the top. It tries to drown everything else though not really 
 successfull at it. In a word even at thier best very colored presentation. Looking forward to trying the Denon AH-D1001 or the Sony MDR-SA1000 earphones._

 

Thanks for the analysis, *Germanium.*
 - mystery opamp is the original NJM 4556A.
 - no, no hardware changes between 48k and 96k.
 - was cleaning home-lab and couldn't just throw out clipped opamps.
 - decided to try soldering leads to SOIC stubs and test new lead-free solder-paste, just for grins.
 - would also serve as "stock" reference." 

 Sony MDR-D777LP, Denon AH-D1001, MDR-SA1000, closed earphones, eh?
 - closed get too hot for me.
 - considering building simple buffer amp with Burr-Brown/TI BUF634 to use with old Sennheiser HD-414SL open headphones.

 Just a few more experiments left with this SB0460...
 - might try a trick I used when designing LNA GaAs MMIC parts, ten years ago, based on "close-field" electrostatic theory.
 - when I finish calcs, will send modification to you for trial and analysis.
 - considering playing with either Auzentech X-Fi Prelude or E-MU 1212M (balanced-out).


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bichi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks for the analysis, *Germanium.*
 - mystery opamp is the original NJM 4556A.
 - no, no hardware changes between 48k and 96k.
 - was cleaning home-lab and couldn't just throw out clipped opamps.
 - decided to try soldering leads to SOIC stubs and test new lead-free solder-paste, just for grins.
 - would also serve as "stock" reference." 

 Sony MDR-D777LP, Denon AH-D1001, MDR-SA1000, closed earphones, eh?
 - closed get too hot for me.
 - considering building simple buffer amp with Burr-Brown/TI BUF634 to use with old Sennheiser HD-414SL open headphones.

 Just a few more experiments left with this SB0460...
 - might try a trick I used when designing LNA GaAs MMIC parts, ten years ago, based on "close-field" electrostatic theory.
 - when I finish calcs, will send modification to you for trial and analysis.
 - considering playing with either Auzentech X-Fi Prelude or E-MU 1212M (balanced-out)._

 

Denons & sony MDR-D777LPs are closed. The Sonys MDR-SA1000s are open bigtime.

 Doesn't look like they performed to bad at all really (the JRC part). Worked better at 48KHz than the LME parts I feel but the LME parts seem to do better at 96KHz.


----------



## Ranma13

bichi and germanium, I respectfully ask that you two please take your discussion elsewhere, as it doesn't really belong in this thread anymore.

 So I read through this entire post (sans the last few pages) and have decided to do the mod. I want to make sure I got all my information correct though, and had a few questions.

 1. I'm only interested in modding the stereo output. From what it seems like, I need to replace the op amp and the power capacitor, and then short 4 smaller capacitors. Is this correct?

 2. Regarding the power capacitor, it seems like any Blackgate capacitor will do, as long as it is 1 Farad or above at 16V. Is this correct? Also, I've read that non-polar capacitors have better sound characteristics than their polar counterparts but they take a while to burn in, is this also correct? Also, which one would be better, the 1 F or the 2.2 F one?

 3. Regarding shorting the 4 smaller capacitors, I'm currently using speakers but I want to switch over to headphones, directly connected to the stereo out. Someone mentioned however that shorting the 4 smaller capacitors is inadvisable with headphones. Can anybody verify this?

 4. cotdt had mentioned that running the output through an amp is preferred. Which amp would be good? I read that someone had horrible experiences with a CMOY amp.

 5. If I were to replace the 4 smaller capacitors instead of shorting them, which ones should I get?

 6. There was mention of using an anti-static bag to shield the sound card. Some people reported that it made it sound a lot worse and introduced noise, and other people mentioned that it was because the bag is slightly conductive and was touching the top of the capacitors. Can someone clarify this?

 7. I currently do not have a soldering iron, and I read that the Radio Shack ones are real cheapy and not worth picking up. I know cotdt recommends the Hakko 936 but I don't want to drop $90 for a soldering iron I'll only use a few times. From what people said, it seems like I should get a variable temperature iron with a needle tip or a soldering pencil. Any recommendations on a cheap one that can do the job? I'm especially concerned about removing the power capacitor, as many people have had issues with it.

 8. I have a X-fi XtremeMusic and I bought the breaker bay for it separately. I read that changing out the power capacitor might do funky things to the breaker bay, is this true?


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Ranma13* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_bichi and germanium, I respectfully ask that you two please take your discussion elsewhere, as it doesn't really belong in this thread anymore.

 So I read through this entire post (sans the last few pages) and have decided to do the mod. I want to make sure I got all my information correct though, and had a few questions.

 1. I'm only interested in modding the stereo output. From what it seems like, I need to replace the op amp and the power capacitor, and then short 4 smaller capacitors. Is this correct?

 2. Regarding the power capacitor, it seems like any Blackgate capacitor will do, as long as it is 1 Farad or above at 16V. Is this correct? Also, I've read that non-polar capacitors have better sound characteristics than their polar counterparts but they take a while to burn in, is this also correct? Also, which one would be better, the 1 F or the 2.2 F one?

 3. Regarding shorting the 4 smaller capacitors, I'm currently using speakers but I want to switch over to headphones, directly connected to the stereo out. Someone mentioned however that shorting the 4 smaller capacitors is inadvisable with headphones. Can anybody verify this?

 4. cotdt had mentioned that running the output through an amp is preferred. Which amp would be good? I read that someone had horrible experiences with a CMOY amp.

 5. If I were to replace the 4 smaller capacitors instead of shorting them, which ones should I get?

 6. There was mention of using an anti-static bag to shield the sound card. Some people reported that it made it sound a lot worse and introduced noise, and other people mentioned that it was because the bag is slightly conductive and was touching the top of the capacitors. Can someone clarify this?

 7. I currently do not have a soldering iron, and I read that the Radio Shack ones are real cheapy and not worth picking up. I know cotdt recommends the Hakko 936 but I don't want to drop $90 for a soldering iron I'll only use a few times. From what people said, it seems like I should get a variable temperature iron with a needle tip or a soldering pencil. Any recommendations on a cheap one that can do the job? I'm especially concerned about removing the power capacitor, as many people have had issues with it.

 8. I have a X-fi XtremeMusic and I bought the breaker bay for it separately. I read that changing out the power capacitor might do funky things to the breaker bay, is this true?_

 

Why should we take it somewhere else?? We are on topic which is modifyiing the X-Fi. Almost all of our discussiion has been related to that. Both of us are also qualified to answer your questions. Bichi is a electronics tech with experience in designing circuits & I personally have been involved with audio since I was young though admitedly not a tech. I have done many modifications that if I told you them all you would think I was crazy but they worked very well.

 You can't just come in & tell others who are on topic to go elsewhere especially when you have contributed nothing to the conversation yourself. 

 Concerning your questions

 1. I would suggest you read up very carefully before changing the opamp as these boards are very fragile & it is easy to tear up the solder pads for the opamps. A number of people who have tried the opamp mod have ended up with dead boards as a result so if you have no experience in this field don't bother until you can practice on something else less valuable. On the extreme music the caps that need to be shorted or replaced are the 4-22uf caps that are setback from the rest & turned 90 degree from the others as well when you look at the bottom of the board.

 2. 1 farad is a huge capacitor & the inrush to fill such a capacitor can be damaging to other componants on the board so I recommend smaller caps for this board. Black gates are indeed ok though there are some newer designs that may be better such as solid polymer. The large cap near the DSP is probably best with a standard low ESR blackgate cap though rather than very low ESR as bichi has pointed out.

 3. That someone that told you not to connect headphones to the direct coupled output of the modded X-Fi is wrong It is best to connect direct to the headphones as that is where you will see the best quality in most cases. Care has to be taken when connecting the modded card to other amps as some are D.C.coupled and will amplify any incoming D.C. & overheat the amp or damage the headphones due to excessive D.C. current through the voice coil. I have done several D.C. coupled amps so I am definately qualified in this area. The D.C. offset on the modded extreme music with stock amps is about 180 millivolts which is plenty safe for the headhones if directly connected to the output of the sound card. However if you use a seperate amp & it happens to be also D.C. coupled depending on the gain you could end up with more than 1 volt at the earphone which in some cases could damage it or cause the amp to overheat. For this reason I always check D.C. offset at the source and the output of the amp.

 4. Some earphones will require an amp but if you can get away without one that would be preferable as then there is zero coloration introduced beyond that of the soundcard itself which I can assure you is very low in the modded card with D.C. coupling between the DAC 7 the output opamp. I have no recommendations for amps so I will skip that.

 5. Blackgates or solid polymer OS-CONs 

 6.Haven't went there as my card is already very quiet (-116db on Elite Pro). Yiou will see more improvement in other areas like powersupply caps on the analog sections both sonically and noise wise.

 7. I use a 15 watt radioshack iron for the shorting & a heavier 40 watt unit for the power caps. I also have a 40 watt desoldering tool from radio shack. I sincerely suggest you read bichi's instructions on the opamp change though for his recommendationsif you plan on changing the opamps. I recommend against it myself though due to problems others are having. In spite of what this thread starter has said of the JRC opamps they are actually quite good in & of themselves. The bit about the caps inside the opamps causing smearing is B.S.. All caps inside any opamp used in audio are made of the same materials & that is silicon dioxide otherwise known as glass. Glass has low dielectric constant & low dielectric absorbsion & consequently no meaningfull time smear in the audio band. How they may be used is a different matter but the JRC opamps don't sound smeard to me in my configuration. In fact my system resolves an incredable amout of detail & still sound musical with the JRC opamps.

 8. The breakout box has its own power supply via floppy power connector But I'm not rulling out that some rediculous sized cap like 1 farad couldn't cause a problem due to overloading & burning out the regulators from excessive inrush current but that could also ruin the card as well.


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_"...Bichi is a electronics tech with experience in designing circuits..."_

 

- nope, not a tech, but an engineering dingdong with "bunch of letters" after the name in title...
 - too bad you took the time to answer that assquack...
 - would have liked to have seen a "1~2.2 Farad" capacitor installed... LOL!

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_"...JRC opamps they are actually quite good in & of themselves..."_

 

- agree 100%!
 - kind of odd, all the NJR opamp bashing, which seems based on "he said/she said," more than anything objective.


----------



## bichi

Sept 21, 07
 - Model: X-FI Fat1; SB0460
 - Line-Out opamp: *NJM2114*
 - Line-Out: Panasonic S, SMT, 33uf @ 16vdc
 - Line-In: Panasonic S, SMT, 10uf @ 16vdc
 - C177: Panasonic FK, SMT, 1500uf @ 16vdc
 - Other power caps: Mix of tantalum and solid-polymer (see Part ID link below)
 - XP SP2; Creative Driver: v5.12.6.1187

 Subjective audio quality is excellent, with less "sharpness" on the highs, compared to LME49860 opamp
 Do your magic, *Germanium!*

 Picture: (annotated with part ID/Location)
http://www.esnips.com/doc/14278041-4.../X-FI-MOD-070b

 Part ID and Values Installed: (simple zipped TXT format)
http://www.esnips.com/doc/12dd4e0d-8.../X-FI-MOD-070c

 RMAA Test Results: (48/24/48 - 96/24/96)
 Summary: http://www.esnips.com/doc/28f4d867-3.../X-FI-MOD-071b
 Details: http://www.esnips.com/doc/1c6148ab-6.../X-FI-MOD-072b


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bichi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sept 21, 07
 - Model: X-FI Fat1; SB0460
 - Line-Out opamp: *NJM2114*
 - Line-Out: Panasonic S, SMT, 33uf @ 16vdc
 - Line-In: Panasonic S, SMT, 10uf @ 16vdc
 - C177: Panasonic FK, SMT, 1500uf @ 16vdc
 - Other power caps: Mix of tantalum and solid-polymer (see Part ID link below)
 - XP SP2; Creative Driver: v5.12.6.1187

 Subjective audio quality is excellent, with less "sharpness" on the highs, compared to LME49860 opamp
 Do your magic, *Germanium!*

 Picture: (annotated with part ID/Location)
http://www.esnips.com/doc/c32611e6-4.../X-FI-MOD-070b

 Part ID and Values Installed: (simple zipped TXT format)
http://www.esnips.com/doc/12dd4e0d-8.../X-FI-MOD-070c

 RMAA Test Results: (48/24/48 - 96/24/96)
 Summary: http://www.esnips.com/doc/28f4d867-3.../X-FI-MOD-071b
 Details: http://www.esnips.com/doc/1c6148ab-6.../X-FI-MOD-072b_

 

On 96KHz Slighly higher odd order THD, Slightly lower even orderTHD. More spurie at high end beyand audio spectrum

 Somewhat higher IMD distortion Both swept & spectrum.

 Woaaaa Much better crosstalk at high frquencies with the 2114 slightly worse at botom end. Overall much better

 Noise & Dynamics to close to call once again.

 Nothing here to explane difference in sound except crosstalk & even that still shouldn't be audable. Overall still in the ballpark compared to 69b

 It must be an interaction with the DACs on my card that makes it perform so well on RMAA as for the most part it tests slightly worse on your but not much except for the crosstalk which really shines & is consistant with what I see with mine.

 Your subjective analysis tells me it is probably one of the best real world performers compare to the LMEs even though it specs slightly worse. A reduction in sharpness allows you wring more detail out of it without sounding hard through other tweaks.

 About answering the other person you notice that I first criticized how approched us & my answers were to his questions were to someone that lacks experience as that seems to be the case with them.

 I did mention that you have circuit design experience which means you are of a higher caliber than most of the techies on here meaning you were possably an engineer though I couldn't remember that for sure. Sorry that I got it wrong.


----------



## bichi

thanks again, *Germanium!*

 some more stuff to possibly help persons decide on Line-Out capacitor values:

 Simple demonstration of Line-Out capacitor values and it's effect on frequency response
 - SB-0460 Line-Out capacitors: C23, C50, C76, C77 (socketed)
 - LME49860 opamp (socketed)

 1uf: (selected to exaggerate effect on frequency output)
 - note severe loss on low and significant loss on highs

 22uf: (stock value)
 - sounds well behaved with nice lows and highs

 33uf: (my current favorite value, playback via M-Audio BX-5A powered speakers)
 - slight increase in bass and bass tightness, with crisp, clear highs

 47uf: (not shown)
 - very little sonic change from 33uf, if any at all

 Shorted: (100ohm)
 - sounds very similar to 33uf sonic signature 

 RMAA Frequency Response Data:

*1uf @ 63vdc film:*
 Frequency response (from 40 Hz to 15 kHz), dB +0.31, -4.81 - Poor
 Noise level, dB (A) -101.7 - Excellent
 Dynamic range, dB (A) 101.6 - Excellent
 THD, % 0.0014 - Excellent
 THD + Noise, dB (A) -92.2 - Very good
 IMD + Noise, % 0.0038 - Excellent
 Stereo crosstalk, dB -99.3 - Excellent
 IMD at 10 kHz, % 0.0065 - Excellent
 General performance: Very good

 From 20 Hz to 20 kHz, dB -10.03, +0.31
 From 40 Hz to 15 kHz, dB -4.81, +0.31

*22uf @ 16vdc (stock value)*
 Frequency response (from 40 Hz to 15 kHz), dB +0.01, -0.08 - Excellent
 Noise level, dB (A) -101.7 - Excellent
 Dynamic range, dB (A) 101.8 - Excellent
 THD, % 0.0014 - Excellent
 THD + Noise, dB (A) -92.1 - Very good
 IMD + Noise, % 0.0029 - Excellent
 Stereo crosstalk, dB -99.1 - Excellent
 IMD at 10 kHz, % 0.0063 - Excellent
 General performance: Excellent

 From 20 Hz to 20 kHz, dB -0.29, +0.01
 From 40 Hz to 15 kHz, dB -0.08, +0.01

*33uf @ 16vdc*
 Frequency response (from 40 Hz to 15 kHz), dB +0.01, -0.08 - Excellent
 Noise level, dB (A) -101.7 - Excellent
 Dynamic range, dB (A) 101.6 - Excellent
 THD, % 0.0014 - Excellent
 THD + Noise, dB (A) -92.1 - Very good
 IMD + Noise, % 0.0029 - Excellent
 Stereo crosstalk, dB -99.9 - Excellent
 IMD at 10 kHz, % 0.0062 - Excellent
 General performance: Excellent

 From 20 Hz to 20 kHz, dB -0.20, +0.01
 From 40 Hz to 15 kHz, dB -0.08, +0.01

*SHORTED (100ohms)*
 Frequency response (from 40 Hz to 15 kHz), dB +0.01, -0.08 - Excellent
 Noise level, dB (A) -101.7 - Excellent
 Dynamic range, dB (A) 101.7 - Excellent
 THD, % 0.0019 - Excellent
 THD + Noise, dB (A) -90.4 - Very good
 IMD + Noise, % 0.0034 - Excellent
 Stereo crosstalk, dB -99.5 - Excellent
 IMD at 10 kHz, % 0.0068 - Excellent
 General performance: Excellent

 From 20 Hz to 20 kHz, dB -0.15, +0.01
 From 40 Hz to 15 kHz, dB -0.08, +0.01

 RMAA Summary Graphic:
http://www.esnips.com/doc/015457a8-e.../X-FI-MOD-073b


----------



## germanium

Get rid of the electrolitic coupling caps & electrolitic caps going to ground out from the negative feedback of the BXAs & I bet you will hear the diference between shorted & 33uf coupled DACs. It is not all that slight either. There are several in mine & getting rid of them opened up the soundstage in a very big way on the BX5's that I have. It is really in the soundstage you hear the biggest difference but instruments sound much more harmonically intact as well especially the most dificult to reproduce instrument of all, the piano. Piano looses it's life so quickly that it is one of the best instruments to test with.


----------



## LawnGnome

Ranma,

 DON'T use a blackgate for a power cap, they are not the best for this application, and cost much more. 

 Use panasonic FM series.

 Also, I will say do not short those caps. That has not been shown to provide any benefits.

 ALSO, unlike what germanium has told you, they are power caps. They are connected to -5 and +5. From what other members have found.

 Testing proves the card performs worse with those caps shorted.

 Instead of spending 10$ to replace a few caps with Blackgates, spend 10$ to replace ALL the caps with panasonic FM. I did this, and found several leaking stock caps in the process.

 AND GERMANIUM AND BICHI, USE PM. This is bloody too far. Also, bichi, what are you even using to listen to this?

 you dont have any amps or headphones listed, which lead me to believe your just using random junk. Which would mean your setup isn't nearly good enough to pickup any of the slight changes being made.


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LawnGnome* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_"...Also, bichi, what are you even using to listen to this?
 you dont have any amps or headphones listed, which lead me to believe your just using random junk. Which would mean your setup isn't nearly good enough to pickup any of the slight changes being made._

 

it makes little difference what playback devices people use/have, its all relative to them, not you.
 but [...] find list below. (of which, my PC playback has been posted previously)

 Oh, and your explanation to the other fella:
 - considering his level of expertise, highly doubt he could understand what you mean.
 - based on testing? YOUR testing?

 PC STUFF:
 Sennheiser HD-414SL originals (not fond of headphones)
 M-Audio BX-5A

 AUDIO, (not used with PC)
 Mcintosh C2505 x 2; C45
 Bang & Olufsen MC120.2 x 4; S35 x 4
 additional bunch of custom designed gear

 AUDIO ANALYZER:
 Bruel Kjaer
 1049-Sine/Noise Generator
 2636-Measuring Amp
 2609-Measuring Amp (two)
 4134-Microphone Cartridge (.5 inch)
 2639-Preamp and cable (for 4134 Mic)
 4135-Microphone Cartridge (.25 inch)
 2633-Preamp and cable (for 4135 Mic)
 UA 0196 Extensions for 4134/2639 (two)

 SCOPES: (at home)
 Fluke 97
 Tektronics TPS2014


----------



## Ranma13

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why should we take it somewhere else?? We are on topic which is modifyiing the X-Fi. Almost all of our discussiion has been related to that. Both of us are also qualified to answer your questions. Bichi is a electronics tech with experience in designing circuits & I personally have been involved with audio since I was young though admitedly not a tech. I have done many modifications that if I told you them all you would think I was crazy but they worked very well.

 You can't just come in & tell others who are on topic to go elsewhere especially when you have contributed nothing to the conversation yourself. 

I'm sorry if I offended you. It's just that the last few pages had very little to do with how to apply the mod, and more about the technical specs of various ICs (I think, I didn't bother reading it all). As a result, from my standpoint at least, it seems to have turned into a conversation between 2 people and everybody else stopped responding. Hence why I thought it was better if it was taken elsewhere, but hey, I'm just the new guy, maybe this discussion will lead to some important revelations down the line 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.

 Concerning your questions

 1. I would suggest you read up very carefully before changing the opamp as these boards are very fragile & it is easy to tear up the solder pads for the opamps. A number of people who have tried the opamp mod have ended up with dead boards as a result so if you have no experience in this field don't bother until you can practice on something else less valuable. On the extreme music the caps that need to be shorted or replaced are the 4-22uf caps that are setback from the rest & turned 90 degree from the others as well when you look at the bottom of the board.

I'm willing to take the risk, as I have some experience soldering small components onto a PCB. Thanks for the clarification.

 2. 1 farad is a huge capacitor & the inrush to fill such a capacitor can be damaging to other componants on the board so I recommend smaller caps for this board. Black gates are indeed ok though there are some newer designs that may be better such as solid polymer. The large cap near the DSP is probably best with a standard low ESR blackgate cap though rather than very low ESR as bichi has pointed out.

Oops, what I meant was a 1000 uF capacitor, which is 1 mF. I think I'll be going for the Blackgate 2200 uF 16V polar capacitor.

 3. That someone that told you not to connect headphones to the direct coupled output of the modded X-Fi is wrong It is best to connect direct to the headphones as that is where you will see the best quality in most cases. Care has to be taken when connecting the modded card to other amps as some are D.C.coupled and will amplify any incoming D.C. & overheat the amp or damage the headphones due to excessive D.C. current through the voice coil. I have done several D.C. coupled amps so I am definately qualified in this area. The D.C. offset on the modded extreme music with stock amps is about 180 millivolts which is plenty safe for the headhones if directly connected to the output of the sound card. However if you use a seperate amp & it happens to be also D.C. coupled depending on the gain you could end up with more than 1 volt at the earphone which in some cases could damage it or cause the amp to overheat. For this reason I always check D.C. offset at the source and the output of the amp.

I'll be hooking it up to a CMOY amp later on. Unfortunately I don't have a multimeter handy so I can't check the DC offset, but maybe I can borrow one from a friend. Always better safe than sorry, I just bought some Grado SR225's today and I don't want to fry them just yet...

 4. Some earphones will require an amp but if you can get away without one that would be preferable as then there is zero coloration introduced beyond that of the soundcard itself which I can assure you is very low in the modded card with D.C. coupling between the DAC 7 the output opamp. I have no recommendations for amps so I will skip that.

As stated above, I'll be getting a CMOY amp. This way I can max out the volume control in the OS and use the amp to control the volume. This will also give me a portable amp to use with my Zune. I know that Grado's are low impedance headphones and don't need to be driven with as much amps, but I'm lead to believe that there will be a sound quality increase in the bass if I do use one.

 5. Blackgates or solid polymer OS-CONs 

I've decided to try shorting them first, but if that doesn't work, I'll pick up some Blackgates.

 6.Haven't went there as my card is already very quiet (-116db on Elite Pro). Yiou will see more improvement in other areas like powersupply caps on the analog sections both sonically and noise wise.

I've decided to forego the shielding. I stuck an anti-static bag between my sound card and graphics card and there wasn't any difference in the sound.

 7. I use a 15 watt radioshack iron for the shorting & a heavier 40 watt unit for the power caps. I also have a 40 watt desoldering tool from radio shack. I sincerely suggest you read bichi's instructions on the opamp change though for his recommendationsif you plan on changing the opamps. I recommend against it myself though due to problems others are having. In spite of what this thread starter has said of the JRC opamps they are actually quite good in & of themselves. The bit about the caps inside the opamps causing smearing is B.S.. All caps inside any opamp used in audio are made of the same materials & that is silicon dioxide otherwise known as glass. Glass has low dielectric constant & low dielectric absorbsion & consequently no meaningfull time smear in the audio band. How they may be used is a different matter but the JRC opamps don't sound smeard to me in my configuration. In fact my system resolves an incredable amout of detail & still sound musical with the JRC opamps.

From the numerous claims, it seems the LM4562 does provide a better sound output. Personally, I'm fine with the stock op amp, but I'm curious as to how much the sound quality will increase with the LM4562.

 8. The breakout box has its own power supply via floppy power connector But I'm not rulling out that some rediculous sized cap like 1 farad couldn't cause a problem due to overloading & burning out the regulators from excessive inrush current but that could also ruin the card as well._

 

The LM4562's have already shipped (for free might I add, since I applied for the samples using my school e-mail and cited my purpose for using them as educationsl) and I'll be phone ordering the capacitor on Monday. Hopefully I'll have the mod done by the end of next week.


----------



## ter1

Lehmann Black Cube Linear from Germany is the choice for HD650.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LawnGnome* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ranma,

 DON'T use a blackgate for a power cap, they are not the best for this application, and cost much more. 

 Use panasonic FM series.

 Also, I will say do not short those caps. That has not been shown to provide any benefits.

 ALSO, unlike what germanium has told you, they are power caps. They are connected to -5 and +5. From what other members have found.

 Testing proves the card performs worse with those caps shorted.

 Instead of spending 10$ to replace a few caps with Blackgates, spend 10$ to replace ALL the caps with panasonic FM. I did this, and found several leaking stock caps in the process.

 AND GERMANIUM AND BICHI, USE PM. This is bloody too far. Also, bichi, what are you even using to listen to this?

 you dont have any amps or headphones listed, which lead me to believe your just using random junk. Which would mean your setup isn't nearly good enough to pickup any of the slight changes being made._

 

You seem to be full of all sorts of misinformation in this post. I will only point out one that bichi didn't.

 The caps that I recommended shorting are not power caps in any shape or form. Shorting any power cap would in fact ruin the card & maybe even the whole computer. I do my measurement before D.C. coupling anything & there is not +/-5 volts on them. It is +2.5volts or less depending on which card you have. His card should measure less than +2.2 volts on all caps that I said to short in in answer to his question. Mine has +2.5 volts As I now have the Elite Pro card. When properly shorted the D.C. cancels out in the opamp with only a small D.C. offset left over & I listed that amount in my answer to Ranma13.

 I have actually traced the signal. You appearanly are taking someone elses word as fact & not checked it for your self.


----------



## holland

Ranma13,

 I'd suggest you start with a generic low ESR cap before moving to a Blackgate. First is cost and second is whether or not you can hear the change. If you can't hear it, it was a worthless mod. Generally boutique caps measure worse than caps like Panasonic FM for instance, but it's the tone that is imparted that is important for the users of Blackgates. I'm not really a fan of boutique due to the cost, but I would go component quality first (like $0.10-$0.20 USD).

 You should be fine with the CMoy on shorting the coupling caps, as long as you didn't remove the input cap. My amps no longer block DC on the input, so I put the X-Fi caps back in place, the DC offset was too high for my comfort out of the amp otherwise. I tend to prefer total offsets < 10mV-30mV if possible, though higher won't really cause issue, but may affect driver movement as the range of the driver is limited so adding offset moves it from it's resting position. Aside from burning up the voice coils, you get less range of movement. Audible? Probably not at normal volumes for a small offset, but definitely my preference.

 For an iron, the radio shack kind of sucks. I have an old one a dual wattage (15 or 30) and the tip wiggles no matter what I did, and I can't recall what it was like new as it's over 10 years old. Temperature control was hard too and it didn't seem to get hot enough for short hold times. I like to hold no more than 5 sec when desoldering. For cheap, I bought an ECG J-060VT (up to 60 watts and I got it for about $16), it's much better, much more solid, but it's longer from the grip so you need a steadier hand. There are a number of irons you can get in a store for moderate work. Walk around, feel them, and see if you like it. ECG is fine, Weller is fine, etc. The important parts for small amounts of work is a sturdy construction and tips. Notice I didn't mention temperature control, because I don't feel it's all that important as long as you don't cook your parts and you are careful in your work. A small heatsink also goes a long way. I use, at times, some small pliers or tweezers to draw heat away when necessary.

 For testing, I always use freebie earbuds before I plug any cans in. If it's going to blow, better that than anything I paid for.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *holland* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ranma13,

 I'd suggest you start with a generic low ESR cap before moving to a Blackgate. First is cost and second is whether or not you can hear the change. If you can't hear it, it was a worthless mod. Generally boutique caps measure worse than caps like Panasonic FM for instance, but it's the tone that is imparted that is important for the users of Blackgates. I'm not really a fan of boutique due to the cost, but I would go component quality first (like $0.10-$0.20 USD).

 You should be fine with the CMoy on shorting the coupling caps, as long as you didn't remove the input cap. My amps no longer block DC on the input, so I put the X-Fi caps back in place, the DC offset was too high for my comfort out of the amp otherwise. I tend to prefer total offsets < 10mV-30mV if possible, though higher won't really cause issue, but may affect driver movement as the range of the driver is limited so adding offset moves it from it's resting position. Aside from burning up the voice coils, you get less range of movement. Audible? Probably not at normal volumes for a small offset, but definitely my preference.

 For an iron, the radio shack kind of sucks. I have an old one a dual wattage (15 or 30) and the tip wiggles no matter what I did, and I can't recall what it was like new as it's over 10 years old. Temperature control was hard too and it didn't seem to get hot enough for short hold times. I like to hold no more than 5 sec when desoldering. For cheap, I bought an ECG J-060VT (up to 60 watts and I got it for about $16), it's much better, much more solid, but it's longer from the grip so you need a steadier hand. There are a number of irons you can get in a store for moderate work. Walk around, feel them, and see if you like it. ECG is fine, Weller is fine, etc. The important parts for small amounts of work is a sturdy construction and tips. Notice I didn't mention temperature control, because I don't feel it's all that important as long as you don't cook your parts and you are careful in your work. A small heatsink also goes a long way. I use, at times, some small pliers or tweezers to draw heat away when necessary.

 For testing, I always use freebie earbuds before I plug any cans in. If it's going to blow, better that than anything I paid for._

 

I will admit that radio Shacks irons are poorly constructed but they served thier purpose for me & they are indeed cheap. 

 I wish I had tons of money to spend on this hobby but then again if I did I would have been able to by top line stuff already & not learned the virtues & pitfalls of modding various audio componants.

 Good Idea to test with freebie earphones but even better to test with multimeter first to make sure that the shorts were done correctly as if they weren't there would be huge D.C. offset (at least 2.1 volts depending on your card & that can cause the output opamp to overheat very quickly if connected to those freebie earphones as most of them have really low impedance of 16ohms).


----------



## holland

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_even better to test with multimeter first to make sure that the shorts were done correctly_

 

Yes, I agree 100%. I wouldn't know where to start without a meter or a scope. It also helps to check for cold joints when you solder down your components. I don't have a dummy load though (need to build one), so I use these free headphones as a load. I have hit oscillation issues with certain opamps when a headphone is plugged in (into a CMoy), but it's fine without a load. The LM4562 isn't anywhere near as cranky though.


----------



## bichi

Any requests for tests/measurements of coupling capacitors, C177 bypass, DC bias, etc., on a SB-0460?
 - SB-0460 Fatality 1 board is modded with Line-Out capacitor and Line-Out opamp sockets.
 - will be switching to an Auzentech X-Fi Prelude in 2 weeks or so. 

 Soldering irons, eh?
 - simple, low-cost "temp" controller for small, resistive element soldering irons. (about $6.00 USD for switch, diode and cord)
 - when used with HAKKO N454, 25watt pencil, "low" setting for small parts and "hi" for work needing more heat. (ie., ground-plane connected caps)
 - HAKKO N454 with stock tip has enough thermal mass, tip-shape and temperature to work with all X-FI level mods.
 - quick "heat-up" and "heat-down." (about 3mins)
 - purchase interchangeable tips to match your personal soldering technique or needs.

 Usually leave in "low" setting for almost all work.
 - "low" setting tip temp, idle: about 580f/304c
 - stock Hakko N454 gets a bit too hot for my usual type of work. (~800f/426c)
 - have not detected soldering defects using standard 60/40 or "lead-free" wire solder or paste.
 - less bench space compared to stations.
 - in use for about 3 years without issues.

 Picture:
http://www.esnips.com/doc/0302ee2f-2.../X-FI-MOD-074b

 HAKKO N454:
http://shop2.outpost.com/product/155...H:MAIN_RSLT_PG

 HAKKO N454 Description and TIPS:
http://www.hakko.com/english/products/hakko_dash.html


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bichi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Any requests for tests/measurements of coupling capacitors, C177 bypass, DC bias, etc., on a SB-0460?
 - SB-0460 Fatality 1 board is modded with Line-Out capacitor and Line-Out opamp sockets.
 - will be switching to an Auzentech X-Fi Prelude in 2 weeks or so. 

 Soldering irons, eh?
 - simple, low-cost "temp" controller for small, resistive element soldering irons. (about $6.00 USD for switch, diode and cord)
 - when used with HAKKO N454, 25watt pencil, "low" setting for small parts and "hi" for work needing more heat. (ie., ground-plane connected caps)
 - HAKKO N454 with stock tip has enough thermal mass, tip-shape and temperature to work with all X-FI level mods.
 - quick "heat-up" and "heat-down." (about 3mins)
 - purchase interchangeable tips to match your personal soldering technique or needs.

 Usually leave in "low" setting for almost all work.
 - "low" setting tip temp, idle: about 580f/304c
 - stock Hakko N454 gets a bit too hot for my usual type of work. (~800f/426c)
 - have not detected soldering defects using standard 60/40 or "lead-free" wire solder or paste.
 - less bench space compared to stations.
 - in use for about 3 years without issues.

 Picture:
http://www.esnips.com/doc/0302ee2f-2.../X-FI-MOD-074b

 HAKKO N454:
http://shop2.outpost.com/product/155...H:MAIN_RSLT_PG

 HAKKO N454 Description and TIPS:
http://www.hakko.com/english/products/hakko_dash.html_

 

Be very interested in you review of the Prelude


----------



## ter1

Germanium, I just did some mods today, then I tested the result on my elete pro, please comment!

 Since I did not do much audition, but first the sound is full, I'll find more...

 24bit 96kHz front-out to line-in

 Mods:
 1. shorted all the 4 of line-out.
 2. shorted the 2 of line-in.
 3. changed to LMA49860 of front-out and line-in.
 4. changed to BG 16v 3300uf power cap.

 Result:


----------



## ter1

from the results,

 1. frequency response +0.00 -0.03 vs. yours +0.01 -0.07, more superimposed for mine.
 2. Noise level, -109.3 vs. yours -116.5
 3. Dynamic range, 109.1 vs. yours 116.4
 4. THD%, 0.0003 vs. yours 0.0007
 5. IMD + noise, 0.0013 vs. yours 0.0009
 6. crosstalk, -107.7 vs. yours -113.0.

 more detailed,
 1. mine has very lots of spikes in background noise around 50~60, 120, 160, 250~1k, beyond 25k. Your is very clean.

 2. mine has very lots of spikes in dynamic range chart same as in noise level chart.

 3. in HTD + Noise, the spikes in noise also contribute.

 4. in IMD, the spikes in noise also contribute.

 5. cross talk is higher than yours.

 6. IMD swept almost the same.

 In general, it seems all the noises contribute to this very bad results! Germanium, did you encountered the same thing after my steps of mods? If so, please advise!

 Earlier next month, I'll do the further mods as you suggested. Hope will get better results!


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ter1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_from the results,

 1. frequency response +0.00 -0.03 vs. yours +0.01 -0.07, more superimposed for mine.
 2. Noise level, -109.3 vs. yours -116.5
 3. Dynamic range, 109.1 vs. yours 116.4
 4. THD%, 0.0003 vs. yours 0.0007
 5. IMD + noise, 0.0013 vs. yours 0.0009
 6. crosstalk, -107.7 vs. yours -113.0.

 more detailed,
 1. mine has very lots of spikes in background noise around 50~60, 120, 160, 250~1k, beyond 25k. Your is very clean.

 2. mine has very lots of spikes in dynamic range chart same as in noise level chart.

 3. in HTD + Noise, the spikes in noise also contribute.

 4. in IMD, the spikes in noise also contribute.

 5. cross talk is higher than yours.

 6. IMD swept almost the same.

 In general, it seems all the noises contribute to this very bad results! Germanium, did you encountered the same thing after my steps of mods? If so, please advise!

 Earlier next month, I'll do the further mods as you suggested. Hope will get better results!_

 

Woa, IMD looking really bad & so is noise. Opamp is different from mine & i'm just bypassing with large value metalysed film on the powercaps. I didn't actually change opamps or power caps at all. You went way beyond my mods actually. I stayed there I was at due to the excellent results I was getting.

 First thing I would do is go back to the stock power cap & leave that one alone. This is likely where your noise is coming from at least at the top end. It is not a good Idea to alter swich mode type power supplys as they can be very finicky if operated out of original spec. That is why if you look at the picks of mine there is no changes in that area. Only in the analog power supply sections. You might want to look at your computers powersupply as it may be suspect. Try borrowing a better powersupply & see if that helps. I'm using an Antec Pure Power supply. 

 Did you RMAA test it before the mods??


----------



## ter1

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Woa, IMD looking really bad & so is noise. Opamp is different from mine & i'm just bypassing with large value metalysed film on the powercaps. I didn't actually change opamps or power caps at all. You went way beyond my mods actually. I stayed there I was at due to the excellent results I was getting._

 

from spec, my opamp is the same as yours. I looked through my previous results for 24bit 96kHz, the spikes were already there, but after mod, more prominent for some. But the IMD (swept tones) was lower after mods. 

 I suspect for some of the spikes are caused by my very noisy pc psu and other PCI components.

 I'll do further mods with bypassed caps with 22uf, 3.3uf and 6.8uf SOLEN ones in order to do some filtering of the power supply. (is that the filtering true?)
 and replace all other stock caps with audio-grade ones. And shield the whole card with iron plate to see the improvements.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ter1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_from spec, my opamp is the same as yours. I looked through my previous results for 24bit 96kHz, the spikes were already there, but after mod, more prominent for some. But the IMD (swept tones) was lower after mods. 

 I suspect for some of the spikes are caused by my very noisy pc psu and other PCI components.

 I'll do further mods with bypassed caps with 22uf, 3.3uf and 6.8uf SOLEN ones in order to do some filtering of the power supply. (is that the filtering true?)
 and replace all other stock caps with audio-grade ones. And shield the whole card with iron plate to see the improvements._

 

I'm using the stock NJM2114 opamp not the LME. Yes i do believe a lot of the noise is your power supply. The THD distortion is better on that so leave the opamp but work on the powersupply & return the 3300uf cap you put in there with the stock cap. Bichi has noticed that going to a very low ESR cap here is counterproductive without other changes in the circuit.


----------



## ter1

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm using the stock NJM2114 opamp not the LME. Yes i do believe a lot of the noise is your power supply. The THD distortion is better on that so leave the opamp but work on the powersupply & return the 3300uf cap you put in there with the stock cap. Bichi has noticed that going to a very low ESR cap here is counterproductive without other changes in the circuit._

 

Thanks Germanium! I'll wait until all the mods are done to see if improved. If not, I'm going to replace my PSU to a purer one to see.

 But sonically, I like the sound so far after my 1st mod hours before... much full in it, I like it.

 I'm using HD650 directly with no amp.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ter1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks Germanium! I'll wait until all the mods are done to see if improved. If not, I'm going to replace my PSU to a purer one to see.

 But sonically, I like the sound so far after my 1st mod hours before... much full in it, I like it.

 I'm using HD650 directly with no amp._

 

Correction; talked to bichi today & appearantly the blackgate should be fine. It's the extreme low ESR of the Os-Cons that need the circuit reworking namely a different inductor. So just work on the PC powersupply.


----------



## ter1

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Correction; talked to bichi today & appearantly the blackgate should be fine. It's the extreme low ESR of the Os-Cons that need the circuit reworking namely a different inductor. So just work on the PC powersupply._

 


 Germanium, thanks for your information.

 Beside the 4 shorted caps, there are 2 left on the right, which are 25v100uf and 16v47uf, can you tell what are the functions of these 2 caps? A little bit more is expected!~ I'm now learning about the functions of capacitor, but no real examples...

 How about the 2 25v220uf caps near the AD_LINK? Opamp power supply?


----------



## ter1

Germanium, I looked through some hi-fi forums, some modder are changing the crystal oscillators for some other cards. 

 I know x-fi is using a 2-pin 24.567MHz near DSP, maybe just around 50ppm precision. Do you have ideas to change to a more precise 2-pin/4-pin crystal oscillator?

 also, what's that component in the attached picture? Another oscillator?? Thanks!


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ter1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_"...also, what's that component in the attached picture? Another oscillator?? Thanks!..."_

 

Self-resetting fuse/current limiter, Raychem Polyswitch/Bourns Multifuse class, Surface Mount (SMT)
 - located near 4-pin Aux Power plug to power X-FI Console via AD Link.
 - similar to description in datasheet below:

 REF:
http://ps.circuitprotection.com/docs/SMD150%20Rev.J.pdf


----------



## LawnGnome

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ter1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Germanium, I looked through some hi-fi forums, some modder are changing the crystal oscillators for some other cards. 

 I know x-fi is using a 2-pin 24.567MHz near DSP, maybe just around 50ppm precision. Do you have ideas to change to a more precise 2-pin/4-pin crystal oscillator?

 also, what's that component in the attached picture? Another oscillator?? Thanks!_

 

I've already posted I have parts coming to replace the crystal.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ter1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Germanium, thanks for your information.

 Beside the 4 shorted caps, there are 2 left on the right, which are 25v100uf and 16v47uf, can you tell what are the functions of these 2 caps? A little bit more is expected!~ I'm now learning about the functions of capacitor, but no real examples...

 How about the 2 25v220uf caps near the AD_LINK? Opamp power supply?_

 

The 100uf &47Uf are to the internally regulated powersupply for the DACs. Those I bypassed with the 2-3.3uf for the 100uf & 1-3.3uf cap for the 47uf cap.

 Those 2-220uf caps are what I bypassed with 1-12uf cap each. Those are the +/- 12volt rails for the opamps.


----------



## Night_Watchman

Hi all,
 First off thanks for the info on this awesome mod. I did the basic version replacing the 4 (primary and surround) opams with LM4562s and the the power filter cap with the Blackgate 2200uF 16V. In removing the cap I think I may have messed it up a bit. I assume if the cap is not installed properly I would either get no sound or smell that sexy burning odor? I stuck a DIMM on the cap and got 1.2v. Is this correct?

 Thanks in advance

 My RMAA results are ugly especially the frequency response, but it sounds great, and that's all I care about


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Night_Watchman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi all,
 First off thanks for the info on this awesome mod. I did the basic version replacing the 4 (primary and surround) opams with LM4562s and the the power filter cap with the Blackgate 2200uF 16V. In removing the cap I think I may have messed it up a bit. I assume if the cap is not installed properly I would either get no sound or smell that sexy burning odor? I stuck a DIMM on the cap and got 1.2v. Is this correct?

 Thanks in advance

 My RMAA results are ugly especially the frequency response, but it sounds great, and that's all I care about 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Looks like you are running Windows Vista & have mismatched sample rates between record & playback in the OS or the RMAA is set to a different sample rate than the OS. I have Windows Vista & thats what it looks like when mismatched. It will still sound fine as it seems to effect only the record part of the equation especially if you have bit matched playback enabled. Make sure all your areas that relate to sample rate are matched & you will see very flat frequency response.


----------



## ter1

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The 100uf &47Uf are to the internally regulated powersupply for the DACs. Those I bypassed with the 2-3.3uf for the 100uf & 1-3.3uf cap for the 47uf cap.

 Those 2-220uf caps are what I bypassed with 1-12uf cap each. Those are the +/- 12volt rails for the opamps._

 

Thanks! 

 What do you mean "to the internally regulated powersupply for the DACs"? You mean the 100uf and 47uf are both in parallel to the DACs power supply (+5v and ground) ?

 Those 2 220uf ones, what do you mean "those are the +/- 12v rails for the opamps"? 

 I'm a little bit confused.


----------



## ter1

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LawnGnome* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm going to replace the clock crystal, with one with better tolerance and stability. Since the stock one probably isn't that great.

 FYI, if you want to do the same, the clock has a CL of 30pf. and needs to be 24.5760mhz.

 I'm getting a Fox one with 10ppm +/- tolerance, and a 30ppm +/- stability._

 

Thanks! If change the 24.576mHz crystal oscillator, do I need to pay attention to the CL of 30pf (there is nowhere indicating it's 30pf)? I looked through some Web pages, when they're selling the good oscillators, they do not say what CL the clock is. 

 Also, if I change it to a 4-pin TCXO one, do I need to change/remove/add other components on the board for it? Where to get the best +5v power supply on the card?

 Can you suggest some better TCXO oscillators? I remembered some one said, there are 1ppm or even 0.5ppm ones.

 Thanks!


----------



## Night_Watchman

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Looks like you are running Windows Vista & have mismatched sample rates between record & playback in the OS or the RMAA is set to a different sample rate than the OS. I have Windows Vista & thats what it looks like when mismatched. It will still sound fine as it seems to effect only the record part of the equation especially if you have bit matched playback enabled. Make sure all your areas that relate to sample rate are matched & you will see very flat frequency response._

 

Na I'm still on XP, tried various sample rates and tried to normalize it to the best of my abilities but it's still a bit high. The music and games sound great so if it's recording related it won't bother me.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Night_Watchman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Na I'm still on XP, tried various sample rates and tried to normalize it to the best of my abilities but it's still a bit high. The music and games sound great so if it's recording related it won't bother me._

 

Try going to creatives mixer, switch modes to Audio Creation then go to settings in the lower left hand corner & enable bit matched playback. You can also go to the creatives audio console & enable both bit matched playback & record. That should cure your problem. Otherwise all sound goes through the Kmixer which adds distortion especially if the sample rate is anything other than 48KHz.


----------



## Night_Watchman

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Try going to creatives mixer, switch modes to Audio Creation then go to settings in the lower left hand corner & enable bit matched playback. You can also go to the creatives audio console & enable both bit matched playback & record. That should cure your problem. Otherwise all sound goes through the Kmixer which adds distortion especially if the sample rate is anything other than 48KHz._

 

Woot! Didn't have both bit matched playback and recording checked. Now the results look much better.

 Just wanted to say thanks to all you guys, especially Germanium, Coldt and Bichi for your hard work and patience.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Night_Watchman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Woot! Didn't have both bit matched playback and recording checked. Now the results look much better.

 Just wanted to say thanks to all you guys, especially Germanium, Coldt and Bichi for your hard work and patience._

 

Glad that fixed it. Happy listening.


----------



## ter1

Germanium, I bypassed the main powersupply (16v 3300uf BG) and the 2 opamp powersupply (50v 1000uf ELNA) with a 22uf SOLEN each. 

 I want also to bypass the 3 powersupply caps with 2uf, 1uf, 1uf SOLEN in addition. 

 1.Can there be any improvements if I did the additional bypass? No ill impact to the circuit?

 2. Since my RMAA graph has lots of spikes after 30kHz of noise level, can the newly added caps reduce these high-end spikes?

 3. If do so, will it break the balance of low/mid/high? 


 Waiting for your guidance, thanks much!


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ter1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Germanium, I bypassed the main powersupply (16v 3300uf BG) and the 2 opamp powersupply (50v 1000uf ELNA) with a 22uf SOLEN each. 

 I want also to bypass the 3 powersupply caps with 2uf, 1uf, 1uf SOLEN in addition. 

 1.Can there be any improvements if I did the additional bypass? No ill impact to the circuit?

 2. Since my RMAA graph has lots of spikes after 30kHz of noise level, can the newly added caps reduce these high-end spikes?

 3. If do so, will it break the balance of low/mid/high? 


 Waiting for your guidance, thanks much!_

 


 There really isn't any that effect the output like the ones I mentioned. However I found by direct coupling the Line-In then turning on the microphone from the same jack as the Line-In there is about 5volts D.C. put on one of the channels & the sound will not work for the mike from the flexijack on the back. This may be compromising performance som as some of these circuits are still hanging out there when not in use. This will possably effect RMAA some so I'm trying some different routes.

 This may not have been much help but will report back later, ok?


----------



## LawnGnome

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ter1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks! If change the 24.576mHz crystal oscillator, do I need to pay attention to the CL of 30pf (there is nowhere indicating it's 30pf)? I looked through some Web pages, when they're selling the good oscillators, they do not say what CL the clock is. 

 Also, if I change it to a 4-pin TCXO one, do I need to change/remove/add other components on the board for it? Where to get the best +5v power supply on the card?

 Can you suggest some better TCXO oscillators? I remembered some one said, there are 1ppm or even 0.5ppm ones.

 Thanks!_

 

Yes, CL is what the manufacturer uses to tune the crystal. I got the CL from the DAC tech sheets. You can actually use a slower oscillator if you want less internal oversampling. But I wouldn't bother trying that unless you really want to.

 I'm not sure how you would intergrate a 4 pin, but I wouldn't try, since the crystal is sensitive.


 To find the CL of the oscillators you will need to look at their tech sheets.


 EDIT:

 On a side note, I replaced the coupling caps with 16V 100uF UCC PSA series polymers. Improvements across the measuring board, and more detailed than my FM's i was previously using.


----------



## ter1

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There really isn't any that effect the output like the ones I mentioned. However I found by direct coupling the Line-In then turning on the microphone from the same jack as the Line-In there is about 5volts D.C. put on one of the channels & the sound will not work for the mike from the flexijack on the back. This may be compromising performance som as some of these circuits are still hanging out there when not in use. This will possably effect RMAA some so I'm trying some different routes.

 This may not have been much help but will report back later, ok?_

 

Thanks, you shorted only 2 caps for line-in, but 4 for front-out, were you missed 2 others for line-in/mic? That may allow 5v DC for one channel.


 Waiting for your update.

 Also, do you mean that there will be no use if I bypass additional 3 2uf, 1uf, 1uf caps? Thanks!


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ter1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks, you shorted only 2 caps for line-in, but 4 for front-out, were you missed 2 others for line-in/mic? That may allow 5v DC for one channel.


 Waiting for your update.

 Also, do you mean that there will be no use if I bypass additional 3 2uf, 1uf, 1uf caps? Thanks!_

 

The 5 volts for the mic is injected between the flexijack & the line in coupling caps & if you don't use the flexijack for a mike then the 5 volts is not injected.This voltage is injected on the right channel, in other words the ring on the tip ring sleeve 1/8th inch plug. In Windows Vista you can actually disable individual inputs so they don't show & can't therefore be selected. For those with Windows XP I'm not sure if that can be done so I no longer recommend shorting the line in coupling caps on XP machines. If you short them on a Windows Vista machine make sure you disable the mike input for the flexijack first.

 Update, tried to find where to disable inividual inputs on XP but was a no go.


 For those with Windows Vista to disable the mike inpute for the flexijack right click on the speaker icon in the taskbar & select recording devices then right click on micrphone & select disable. 

 There are two other coupling caps in the line in circuit after the line in opamp. These are 47uf caps on the other side of the ADC & very very close to those 4 large caps above the ADC. 

 I'm waiting on a new board as I was probing around on the board when it was live & accidently shorted the power supply to the relays to the left channel line-in. When there is no plug in the flexijack the left channel is shorted to ground. When I accidently shorted the relay power to the left channel line-in ther was no plug in the flexijack & I ended up blowing the left channel trace & seems like all of the opamps that lead to the ADC may have been fried as well, even the ones behind the second set of coupling caps. I will be getting new Elite pro card on tuesday if all goes well. The output section on the old card still works so I'm still able to listen to music on old card, just not able to do anymore RMAA tests on this card.

 The other caps other than the ones I mentioned to bypass with metalyzed film caps are for the line-in & have no bearing on the sound you hear at the speakers though they may improve the specs as read by RMAA & help if you plan on doing any recording with the line-in.


----------



## bichi

SOIC8 to DIP8 Carrier
 - made from spare surplus parts
 - still needs epoxy "potting" for added mechanical strength
 - SOIC socket installed on SB0460
 - allows DIP8 opamps to be tested with SB0460 and SB0550

 Intial test of adapter/carrier, plugged in an old Texas Instruments TL082, DIP8, circa 1980, JFET frontend.
 - surprised by audio quality and did RMAA tests, out of curiosity.
 - seems to be a nice match with Line-Out caps, Panasonic S, SMT, 33uf @ 25vdc
 - short audition with "Put Your Records On," Corinne Bailey Rae, source 48/24
 - firm bottom, accurate image, clean highs, very pleasant overall...

 SOIC to DIP8 Carrier:
http://www.esnips.com/doc/4e49edc3-b.../X-FI-MOD-075b

 SOIC to DIP8 installed on SB0460:
http://www.esnips.com/doc/4c65f579-f.../X-FI-MOD-076b

 RMAA Results: 48/24/48 and 96/24/96
 SUMMARY: http://www.esnips.com/doc/5eda7602-0.../X-FI-MOD-077b
 DETAILED: http://www.esnips.com/doc/b413cc2d-7.../X-FI-MOD-078b

 Texas Instruments TL082-CP:
http://www.ti.com/lit/gpn/tl082

 EDIT: reloaded eSnips stuff with new links


----------



## germanium

Deleted


----------



## germanium

Links are working now bichi


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bichi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_SOIC8 to DIP8 Carrier
 - made from spare surplus parts
 - still needs epoxy "potting" for added mechanical strength
 - SOIC socket installed on SB0460
 - allows DIP8 opamps to be tested with SB0460 and SB0550

 Intial test of adapter/carrier, plugged in an old Texas Instruments TL082, DIP8, circa 1980, JFET frontend.
 - surprised by audio quality and did RMAA tests, out of curiosity.
 - seems to be a nice match with Line-Out caps, Panasonic S, SMT, 33uf @ 25vdc
 - short audition with "Put Your Records On," Corinne Bailey Rae, source 48/24
 - firm bottom, accurate image, clean highs, very pleasant overall...

 SOIC to DIP8 Carrier:
http://www.esnips.com/doc/4e49edc3-b.../X-FI-MOD-075b

 SOIC to DIP8 installed on SB0460:
http://www.esnips.com/doc/4c65f579-f.../X-FI-MOD-076b

 RMAA Results: 48/24/48 and 96/24/96
 SUMMARY: http://www.esnips.com/doc/5eda7602-0.../X-FI-MOD-077b
 DETAILED: http://www.esnips.com/doc/b413cc2d-7.../X-FI-MOD-078b

 Texas Instruments TL082-CP:
http://www.ti.com/lit/gpn/tl082

 EDIT: reloaded eSnips stuff with new links_

 

Measures better than manufacturers specs for this chip on your board. Not bad for such an old part. looks more like near the limits of the ADC than that of the opamp itself. Maybe that is why that opamp is still around as it seems very conservatively rated.


----------



## ter1

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The 5 volts for the mic is injected between the flexijack & the line in coupling caps & if you don't use the flexijack for a mike then the 5 volts is not injected.This voltage is injected on the right channel, in other words the ring on the tip ring sleeve 1/8th inch plug. In Windows Vista you can actually disable individual inputs so they don't show & can't therefore be selected. For those with Windows XP I'm not sure if that can be done so I no longer recommend shorting the line in coupling caps on XP machines. If you short them on a Windows Vista machine make sure you disable the mike input for the flexijack first.

 Update, tried to find where to disable inividual inputs on XP but was a no go.


 For those with Windows Vista to disable the mike inpute for the flexijack right click on the speaker icon in the taskbar & select recording devices then right click on micrphone & select disable. 

 There are two other coupling caps in the line in circuit after the line in opamp. These are 47uf caps on the other side of the ADC & very very close to those 4 large caps above the ADC. 

 I'm waiting on a new board as I was probing around on the board when it was live & accidently shorted the power supply to the relays to the left channel line-in. When there is no plug in the flexijack the left channel is shorted to ground. When I accidently shorted the relay power to the left channel line-in ther was no plug in the flexijack & I ended up blowing the left channel trace & seems like all of the opamps that lead to the ADC may have been fried as well, even the ones behind the second set of coupling caps. I will be getting new Elite pro card on tuesday if all goes well. The output section on the old card still works so I'm still able to listen to music on old card, just not able to do anymore RMAA tests on this card.

 The other caps other than the ones I mentioned to bypass with metalyzed film caps are for the line-in & have no bearing on the sound you hear at the speakers though they may improve the specs as read by RMAA & help if you plan on doing any recording with the line-in._

 


 Oh, it's a pity to hear the first card is malfunctioning,, you can render it to a repair man, great chances it can be repaired!~

 For the other 2 coupling caps for Line-in "These are 47uf caps on the other side of the ADC & very very close to those 4 large caps above the ADC", 
 1. do you suggest to short them in addition to the former 2 ones you mentioned before? 
 2. The 5v injection to the mike right channel can be offsetted by shorting these 2 additional ones? Or do you know how to get rid of the 5v injection for mike?
 3. I need to always connect the line-in to the output of a winradio advanced radio. After I did the first mod to short the 2 line-in caps, I didn't try to connect it to the radio, do you think there is a risk to destroy the cards? If you suggest to do the additional 2 caps, I'll do that too. I think it will only impact mike not line-in, right?? I can't affort to destroy the $750 radio 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 4. Can you suggest which caps need to be bypassed to let a better recording results?

 Thanks in advance!!


----------



## bichi

- Line-Out opamp: *NJM5532*
 - Line-Out: Panasonic S, SMT, 33uf @ 10vdc
 - Line-In: Panasonic S, SMT, 10uf @ 16vdc
 - C177: Rubycon YXG, low-ESR, 3300uf @ 10vdc
 - other power de-coupling capacitors are various tantalum and polymer electrolytics, equal to stock values
 - Model: X-FI Fat1; *SB0460*
 - XP SP2; Creative Driver: v5.12.6.1187

 OBJECTIVE: (compared to National Semi LME49860; same family as LM4560, LME49720/860 series)
 - NJR upgraded part from NJM1458 series 
 - appears to be used on X-FI Elite Pro Line-IN section, post Line-In opamp

 SUBJECTIVE:
 - not critically critiqued, but tested more for electrical compatibility with SB0460
 - pleasant without any ill effects and appears to be more detailed than stock NJM4556
 - excellent for a "jelly-bean," classed opamp 
 - playback: M-Audio BX-5A

 Will most likely replace 4558's in two SONY settop DVD players with this part

 RMAA Results:
 DETAIL: NJM5532 - http://www.esnips.com/doc/5274ea7f-3.../X-FI-MOD-079b

 REF:
 NJM5532: http://semicon.njr.co.jp/njr/hp/file...?_mediaId=5764
 RubyCon YXG: http://www.rubycon.co.jp/en/catalog/...inum/e_yxg.pdf


----------



## bichi

- Line-Out opamps: Texas Instruments/Burr-Brown FET Sound-Plus: *OPA2134* and Enhanced-JFET Low-Offset: *TL052* 
 - DIP8 versions of above tested with SOIC8 to DIP8 carrier
 - Line-Out: Panasonic S, SMT, 33uf @ 10vdc
 - Line-In: Panasonic S, SMT, 10uf @ 16vdc
 - C177: Rubycon YXG, low-ESR, 3300uf @ 10vdc
 - other power de-coupling capacitors are various tantalum and polymer electrolytics, equal to stock values
 - Model: X-FI Fat1; *SB0460*
 - XP SP2; Creative Driver: v5.12.6.1187

 OBJECTIVE: (compared to National Semi LME49860; same family as LM4560, LME49720/860 series)
 - slightly less high freq response 
 - both above TI/BB parts have slightly higher THD and IMD figures
 - OPA2134 output current: 35ma
 - TL052 output current: 80ma each channel (might be an option for headphoners)

 SUBJECTIVE:
 - both are warmer, flatter but remain accurate with good image retention (some report this as the "Burr-Brown" sound)
 - some might classify them as "less harsh/bright/digital," mid-bands and highs
 - bottom is tight with less frontstage (probably more appealing to classical listeners and not to bassheads)
 - "warmness" is probably due to richer harmonics at even spectral values and slight rolloff at high-band
 - pleasant and easy to listen to at both low and high SPL levels
 - playback: M-Audio BX-5A 

 Picture:
http://www.esnips.com/doc/b32b20c2-c.../X-FI-MOD-080b

 RMAA Results:
 DETAIL: OPA2134 - http://www.esnips.com/doc/10164bfe-d.../X-FI-MOD-081b
 DETAIL: TL052 - http://www.esnips.com/doc/204e2f10-b.../X-FI-MOD-082b

 REF:
 OPA2134: http://www.ti.com/lit/gpn/opa2134
 TL052: http://www.ti.com/lit/gpn/tl052a
 RubyCon YXG: http://www.rubycon.co.jp/en/catalog/...inum/e_yxg.pdf


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ter1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Oh, it's a pity to hear the first card is malfunctioning,, you can render it to a repair man, great chances it can be repaired!~

 For the other 2 coupling caps for Line-in "These are 47uf caps on the other side of the ADC & very very close to those 4 large caps above the ADC", 
 1. do you suggest to short them in addition to the former 2 ones you mentioned before? 
 2. The 5v injection to the mike right channel can be offsetted by shorting these 2 additional ones? Or do you know how to get rid of the 5v injection for mike?
 3. I need to always connect the line-in to the output of a winradio advanced radio. After I did the first mod to short the 2 line-in caps, I didn't try to connect it to the radio, do you think there is a risk to destroy the cards? If you suggest to do the additional 2 caps, I'll do that too. I think it will only impact mike not line-in, right?? I can't affort to destroy the $750 radio 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 4. Can you suggest which caps need to be bypassed to let a better recording results?

 Thanks in advance!!_

 

1. Have not tested new card yet but from what I remember there is D.C. voltage there that needs to be preserved on the second set of coupling caps. This voltage offset probably is needed for the ADC to work properly as the ADC has only plus voltages powering it , no minus voltages. so do not direct couple there.

 I need to get better probes for my volt meter before testing voltages as it was a simple slip of my current probes as they are not sharp enough to dig in to the solder & not slip that damaged my old card.


 2.No the 5 volts going to the mike cannot be offsetted by shorting the two additional caps & could be damaging.

 3. never activate the microphone when connected to anything else but a microphone as the 5 volt D.C. is always there at the input jack when microphone is activated but not when line-in is selected. If you have Windows Vista I suggest disabling the microphone if connecting to anything but a microphone. If you don't have Vista make very sure that line-in is selected before connecting to any other source than a microphone. On Vista you can still remove it from the disabled list if you need to use it for a micrphone input later.

 4. Waiting to get better probes before further testing of voltages to prevent the costly replacement again. 300 dollars is not chump change to me.

 The new card stock does measure slightly better than the old modified one did but still don't like the sound of it. In particular piano sounds stripped of some of its harmonics & sounds dead as a result. There are high frequecies there on cymbles & synths but piano sounds lifeless on new stock card.


----------



## Gautama

So, I've read through but am still unsure of what the verdict on shorting the 4 caps by the opamp is?


----------



## Apocalypsee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Gautama* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So, I've read through but am still unsure of what the verdict on shorting the 4 caps by the opamp is?_

 

I would like to know too. Been hearing mixed results. And regarding the power filter cap, can it use 6.3V caps?


----------



## holland

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Apocalypsee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I would like to know too. Been hearing mixed results. And regarding the power filter cap, can it use 6.3V caps?_

 

It depends. Are your amps DC coupled? If so, keep them. If not, short them if you like You can replace them with some OSCONs. I use 47uf FM, as I don't have OSCON at the moment.

 6.3V, yes, even with a 20% voltage tolerance. It's regulated down to 1.2V, apparently.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Gautama* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So, I've read through but am still unsure of what the verdict on shorting the 4 caps by the opamp is?_

 

Benefit of D.C. coupling is clearer sound & better soundstage but slightly worse specs. Very very slightly worse, not durastic at all. .0002% worse distortion & .3db worse signal to noise & about the same dynamic range. better frequency response in the bass especially by .02-.04db depending if you also direct couple the line-in to the first line in opamp. The worse THD distortion is strictly the second harmonic as all other THD componants are better. Do not connect to a D.C. coupled amp though unless you have less than 10mv D.C. offset at the output of the card.

 Note you have to have a pretty resolving system to hear much of the differences. Also when I was comparing befor I was using creatives own tests as I had not run stock tests on the previous card which are far worse than mine. On my system it tests considerably better than creatives tests even stock but even my modded card outshined the creative tests by a wide margin. This is testamony to good powersupply selection as my computer powersupply is very clean.


----------



## ter1

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_1. Have not tested new card yet but from what I remember there is D.C. voltage there that needs to be preserved on the second set of coupling caps. This voltage offset probably is needed for the ADC to work properly as the ADC has only plus voltages powering it , no minus voltages. so do not direct couple there.

 I need to get better probes for my volt meter before testing voltages as it was a simple slip of my current probes as they are not sharp enough to dig in to the solder & not slip that damaged my old card.


 2.No the 5 volts going to the mike cannot be offsetted by shorting the two additional caps & could be damaging.

 3. never activate the microphone when connected to anything else but a microphone as the 5 volt D.C. is always there at the input jack when microphone is activated but not when line-in is selected. If you have Windows Vista I suggest disabling the microphone if connecting to anything but a microphone. If you don't have Vista make very sure that line-in is selected before connecting to any other source than a microphone. On Vista you can still remove it from the disabled list if you need to use it for a micrphone input later.

 4. Waiting to get better probes before further testing of voltages to prevent the costly replacement again. 300 dollars is not chump change to me.

 The new card stock does measure slightly better than the old modified one did but still don't like the sound of it. In particular piano sounds stripped of some of its harmonics & sounds dead as a result. There are high frequecies there on cymbles & synths but piano sounds lifeless on new stock card._

 

Thank you very much for your information! Then I'll not short the 2 other line-in coupling caps.

 Waiting for your further advice!


----------



## Apocalypsee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *holland* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It depends. Are your amps DC coupled? If so, keep them. If not, short them if you like You can replace them with some OSCONs. I use 47uf FM, as I don't have OSCON at the moment.

 6.3V, yes, even with a 20% voltage tolerance. It's regulated down to 1.2V, apparently._

 

Thanks for the reply 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I don't know whether my Klipsch GMX were DC coupled or not. I think I better leave them if I getting the card


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ter1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thank you very much for your information! Then I'll not short the 2 other line-in coupling caps.

 Waiting for your further advice!_

 

Got some new probes & there is 2.46 volts on the 2nd set of coupling caps so leave those coupling caps in place.


----------



## Gautama

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Benefit of D.C. coupling is clearer sound & better soundstage but slightly worse specs. Very very slightly worse, not durastic at all. .0002% worse distortion & .3db worse signal to noise & about the same dynamic range. better frequency response in the bass especially by .02-.04db depending if you also direct couple the line-in to the first line in opamp. The worse THD distortion is strictly the second harmonic as all other THD componants are better. Do not connect to a D.C. coupled amp though unless you have less than 10mv D.C. offset at the output of the card.

 Note you have to have a pretty resolving system to hear much of the differences. Also when I was comparing befor I was using creatives own tests as I had not run stock tests on the previous card which are far worse than mine. On my system it tests considerably better than creatives tests even stock but even my modded card outshined the creative tests by a wide margin. This is testamony to good powersupply selection as my computer powersupply is very clean._

 


 Aye, my Seasonic is pretty clean 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, and the path on my motherboard uses Rubycon so I'm good to go there.

 Were the earlier notions that coupling the caps could cause dc to leak into the headphones/speakers proven false or am I safe with that since I have an amp? If the latter, would shorting the line in caps hurt my mic?


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Gautama* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Aye, my Seasonic is pretty clean 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, and the path on my motherboard uses Rubycon so I'm good to go there.

 Were the earlier notions that coupling the caps could cause dc to leak into the headphones/speakers proven false or am I safe with that since I have an amp? If the latter, would shorting the line in caps hurt my mic?_

 

It depnds if it's a D.C. coupled amp (different from mere direct coupling as it will amplify D.C. whereas mere direct coupling doesn't. D.C. coupling implies all stages are direct coupled & no capacitor going to ground from the negative feedback loop. In a standard direct coupled amp this capacitor is still present in the fedback loop but not in a D.C. coupled amp. Consequently a D.C. amp will amplify any D.C. offset present in the output of the card resulting in overheating the amp & possably damagng the speakers. Headphones directly connected to the card should be ok as the D.C. offset is not huge but it is enough to cause problems with D.C. coupled amps on the SB460 card. D.C. offset is less on the SB550 card & may in some cases be safe with D.C. coupled amps. On my SB550 I get 5millivolts or less which is safe with most D.C. coupled amps.

 It won't hurt the mike but the mike will not work if used in the flexijack when the line-in caps are shorted.


----------



## germanium

After having a chance to listen to my new SB550 in both stock & modded form I definately like it better modded in spite of slightly worse specs, nothing durastic mind you spec wise, but again the sound is what really counts after all. We don't listen to test gear, we listen with our ears so that the goal is to get better sound according to the ears.I use the tests only to verify nothing durastic is wrong.

 On my headphones the boominess has almost totally disappeared replaced with wonderfully tight deep bass that extends very deep. Midrange has more life to it as does the treble without being harsh. This is in spite of the specs showing there only improving the very deep bass. Frequence response is within +.01/-.04 on 96KHz sample rate & +.01/-.03 on 48KHz sample rate.It was +01/-.09 stock on both sample rates before. By the way these Denon AH-D1001 are excellent phones for the money. They definately will reward you if you feed them right with good source & amp

 Note I shorted the 1st line in coupling caps to get these & do not plan on using the microphone on the flexijack, otherwise the specs would have been +.01/-.07 modded.


----------



## ter1

1. Germanium, after my mods, the card often disconnect the power itself to do some protection I think, and the card will not work, even no that hardware detected in BIOS. Then after ~3 hours, it will restore to normal. Maybe there are some negative feedback from my larger caps throughout the board caused the self protection. 
 Do you know why the exact root cause & how to get rid of it?

 2. Now I disconnected the external power supply cable, so the breakout box is no use. I did the RMAA, the spec is a little bit better and spikes in noise are mitigated. 
 Do you think it's better to disconnect the cable? Someone thinks it will give the card more power to let it sound more dynamic through it's 5v DV in.

 Thanks!!


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ter1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_1. Germanium, after my mods, the card often disconnect the power itself to do some protection I think, and the card will not work, even no that hardware detected in BIOS. Then after ~3 hours, it will restore to normal. Maybe there are some negative feedback from my larger caps throughout the board caused the self protection. 
 Do you know why the exact root cause & how to get rid of it?

 2. Now I disconnected the external power supply cable, so the breakout box is no use. I did the RMAA, the spec is a little bit better and spikes in noise are mitigated. 
 Do you think it's better to disconnect the cable? Someone thinks it will give the card more power to let it sound more dynamic through it's 5v DV in.

 Thanks!!_

 

I have not had that problem myself. look for a short somewhere as that will cause the circuit breaker on the card to open for a time. Poor solder joint. Solder bridge & the like. If you were heating the leads of the metalyzed film caps to long there may be a leakage problem with current going through them when it shouldn't. Remove the caps you put in there & put a volt ohm meter across them on the ohm setting & see if the measure anything other than infinate impedance.

 On my setup I needed to mute all inputs in order eliminate other sources of noise. My breakout box is still connected & powered for my tests showing clean noise floor.


----------



## Gautama

Talked to David and he said the LDII++ is AC coupled not DC, so I assume it would be best to replace the caps. Whats a good clean cheap cap to do it with?


----------



## ter1

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have not had that problem myself. look for a short somewhere as that will cause the circuit breaker on the card to open for a time. Poor solder joint. Solder bridge & the like. If you were heating the leads of the metalyzed film caps to long there may be a leakage problem with current going through them when it shouldn't. Remove the caps you put in there & put a volt ohm meter across them on the ohm setting & see if the measure anything other than infinate impedance.

 On my setup I needed to mute all inputs in order eliminate other sources of noise. My breakout box is still connected & powered for my tests showing clean noise floor._

 

Thanks, 
 I do recommend connecting the external power cable, it brings more dynamics, but if the psu is poor, more noise will come in.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ter1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks, I shorted the D8 & D11 diode on board, the self-protection is gone.

 I do recommend connecting the external power cable, it brings more dynamics, but if the psu is poor, more noise will come in._

 

Glad its working now.

 Were the diodes shorted accidently & you removed the short now?

 Hows the actuall sound now that its fully funtional?


----------



## ter1

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Glad its working now.

 Were the diodes shorted accidently & you removed the short now?

 Hows the actuall sound now that its fully funtional?_

 

I relinquish that, since the self-protection occurred again after I shorted the 2 diodes. So don't short the diodes!! I just removed the bridges.

 I tried other methods, all failed. So I'm thinking that it may be the internal feature of the card BIOS or even DSP. I don't know...

 passively,
 I suspect it is caused by my replacement of the 2 opamp caps with 2 50v 1000uf caps, I just detached the 2 caps to see if the self-protection again.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ter1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I relinquish that, since the self-protection occurred again after I shorted the 2 diodes. So don't short the diodes!! I just removed the bridges.

 I tried other methods, all failed. So I'm thinking that it may be the internal feature of the card BIOS or even DSP. I don't know...

 passively,
 I suspect it is caused by my replacement of the 2 opamp caps with 2 50v 1000uf caps, I just detached the 2 caps to see if the self-protection again._

 

I would be more inclined to look at the powersupply mods for the DSP unit as a possable cause as these circuits can be finicky.


----------



## ter1

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I would be more inclined to look at the powersupply mods for the DSP unit as a possable cause as these circuits can be finicky._

 

can you please take a look at the powersupply circuit around the board? I don't know how to enlarge the overcurrent protection threshold. I don't have much circuit knowlege and this issue caused me much annoyment although the music from the modded card is truely amazing!!


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ter1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_can you please take a look at the powersupply circuit around the board? I don't know how to enlarge the overcurrent protection threshold. I don't have much circuit knowlege and this issue caused me much annoyment although the music from the modded card is truely amazing!!_

 

If you modded the power section by the DSP try returning it to stock. You are unlikely to have any gains there in real sound quality & may if done wrong end up with more noise & possably what you are experiencing now. There may be some bad resonanances causing increased power drain. Never increase the power threshold of the circuit breaker as that could lead to far more dangerous consequences such as fire. Find the cause of the overcurrent & fix that. 

 The DSP is a very power hungry device & needs lots of clean power. I believe the circuit breaker is there primarily to protect that section as that is the only section that really draws a lot of power. The only other possabilty is the breakout box as you said it didn't protect itself at least in your first post regarding this issue, when it was disconnected but that doesn't explain the fact that the whole soundcard shuts down. If the circuit breaker was for the breakout box power only the breakout box would be effected not the whole card. this leads me back to the DSP power supply. Without a schematic I would be at a loss to trace it. Hopefully bichi has a solution. The breakout box really draws very little power if running correctly & unlikely to trip the circuit breaker as it seems to be pretty heavy unit already. The breakout box does add a small power increase on the DSP & if the DSP is already near its limits due to bad power resonance that could trip the circuit breaker.

 Does the DSP get unusually hot? That could be a clue. You could also try directing more air over the card & seee if that helps.


----------



## ter1

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If you modded the power section by the DSP try returning it to stock. You are unlikely to have any gains there in real sound quality & may if done wrong end up with more noise & possably what you are experiencing now. There may be some bad resonanances causing increased power drain. Never increase the power threshold of the circuit breaker as that could lead to far more dangerous consequences such as fire. Find the cause of the overcurrent & fix that. 

 The DSP is a very power hungry device & needs lots of clean power. I believe the circuit breaker is there primarily to protect that section as that is the only section that really draws a lot of power. The only other possabilty is the breakout box as you said it didn't protect itself at least in your first post regarding this issue, when it was disconnected but that doesn't explain the fact that the whole soundcard shuts down. If the circuit breaker was for the breakout box power only the breakout box would be effected not the whole card. this leads me back to the DSP power supply. Without a schematic I would be at a loss to trace it. Hopefully bichi has a solution. The breakout box really draws very little power if running correctly & unlikely to trip the circuit breaker as it seems to be pretty heavy unit already. The breakout box does add a small power increase on the DSP & if the DSP is already near its limits due to bad power resonance that could trip the circuit breaker.

 Does the DSP get unusually hot? That could be a clue. You could also try directing more air over the card & seee if that helps._

 


 Thanks, since the card is not shutdown during computer startup, I would also think it's the heat that triggered the issue. I changed all the 7 opamps to LME49860, maybe caused more current drain & that triggered the overheat of some IC, then the IC do self-protection.

 1. My DSP is not heat, but the 3 leg power regulator above the memory chip very hot & the hotest IC on board, do your card behave the same?


 2. Also, can I remove the 2 additional opamps directly & these 2 seem for DELL-specific extension. 

 3. I changed the 4 caps for ADC to 4 6.3v1000uf ones. The datasheet says only 2 are needed for + and - (1000uf is better for low response each), why there are 4 on board? Do you think the 2 6.3v470u in parallel to make near 1000uf for each + or - due to space limitation (don't have room for 6.3v1000uf ones)?

 4. I'm now disconnecting the 2 opamp caps (modded to 2 50v1000uf from 220uf), no such shutdown so far, but the sound is terrible!! no deep bass, if large bass in original soundtrack, I can hear the sound become small due to insufficient current/voltage & the highs not bright!! very terrible, and I want to find the root cause and remedy for the shutdown asap... try to get rid of no use opamps and caps to reduce overall current is a way, I need your help...


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ter1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks, since the card is not shutdown during computer startup, I would also think it's the heat that triggered the issue. I changed all the 7 opamps to LME49860, maybe caused more current drain & that triggered the overheat of some IC, then the IC do self-protection.

 1. My DSP is not heat, but the 3 leg power regulator above the memory chip very hot & the hotest IC on board, do your card behave the same?


 2. Also, can I remove the 2 additional opamps directly & these 2 seem for DELL-specific extension. 

 3. I changed the 4 caps for ADC to 4 6.3v1000uf ones. The datasheet says only 2 are needed for + and - (1000uf is better for low response each), why there are 4 on board? Do you think the 2 6.3v470u in parallel to make near 1000uf for each + or - due to space limitation (don't have room for 6.3v1000uf ones)?

 4. I'm now disconnecting the 2 opamp caps (modded to 2 50v1000uf from 220uf), no such shutdown so far, but the sound is terrible!! no deep bass, if large bass in original soundtrack, I can hear the sound become small due to insufficient current/voltage & the highs not bright!! very terrible, and I want to find the root cause and remedy for the shutdown asap... try to get rid of no use opamps and caps to reduce overall current is a way, I need your help..._

 

1. yes it gets pretty warm. After being on for some time the DSP chip got pretty close to the same temp as the regulators but takes much longer to get there.

 2. Not Dell specific, I have the same opamps. They split the signal into a differential signal to feed the ADC.

 3. I do believe these to be required and are shown in the data sheets I have seen. These supply the +&- voltage reference for the ADC & there are 2 per channel. Each has a different voltage. 1.2 volts & 3.6 volts. There is also a small ceramic cap that goes between the 1.2 &3.6 volt ref..

 4. Stands to reason that the electrolytics are needed there. They should have had no bearing on the hot voltage regulators though as these are not fed by those regulators. They are fed directly from the motherboard + & - 12 volt rails. The regulaters feed the ADC & DAC +5 volt rail & probably the breakout boxes ADCs & DACs. All the opamps on main board fed +&-12 volts. I realize that I mentioned the possability of removing the 2 electrolytics with large value metalyzed films there but in light of you findings I will rethink that option. I have not actually removed them myself to test that theory. It was only a thought I had is all. further more when I tried the 2-12uf metalyzed film caps on the new card they added too much noise but the 2-3.3uf caps worked fine. I guess the shorter leads do help but may be that some cards are more sensitive than others even of the same model.


 One thing you could try doing is getting more air flow over the soundcard. The soundcard sits in proably the worst spot in the PC for airflow. If you have an open spot below the card try removing the cover to that open spot to let more air by the sound card. Also if you have heat producing cards in the next spot down try moving it to a spot further down or above if there is room. If not install a small low speed fan pointed toward the soundcard. By all means though put the 2 electrolytics back in & make sure they are in the correct polarity.


----------



## turtletrax

Hello folks!

 I have done several X-Fi mods and never had a problem untill now. I did one for a friend and was having problems with it and I noticed that one of the solder pads was damaged. 

 This is the one that is damaged...







 I have good soldering skills but my diagnostic skills are lacking. If anyone would be willing to help find where it leads to, there is 16v 1000uf Blackgate cap in it for you.

 Thanks in advance guys


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *turtletrax* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hello folks!
 I have done several X-Fi mods and never had a problem untill now. I did one for a friend and was having problems with it and I noticed that one of the solder pads was damaged. This is the one that is damaged... I have good soldering skills but my diagnostic skills are lacking. If anyone would be willing to help find where it leads to, there is 16v 1000uf Blackgate cap in it for you. Thanks in advance guys 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

TurtleTrax:
 This is your lucky day. The "damaged" pad you show is not used. Just be sure it is left "open..."

 X-FI Board model SB0460:
 - original MC33078 opamp is MIC-IN configured in MONO mode and *NOT a LINE-IN opamp,* as shown in other parts of this thread.
 - only half the opamp is used.
 - inputs, In+2 and In-2, are *shorted to ground.* (to keep the second, unused opamp in quiescent state)
 - output, Out2, is left open. (to insure opamp current demand is minimal)
 - SB0460 LINE-IN is capacitively coupled to the Wolfson WM8775 ADC, via C48 and C49, Line-IN/MIC-IN/Flexijack with no opamp in path.

 Picture:
http://www.esnips.com/doc/0b57366d-e.../X-FI-MOD-083b

 REF:
 MC33078 Datasheet: http://www.onsemi.com/pub/Collateral/MC33078-D.PDF


----------



## Gautama

Dibs on the cap if not needed >.<


----------



## turtletrax

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bichi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_TurtleTrax:
 This is your lucky day. The "damaged" pad you show is not used. Just be sure it is left "open..."

 X-FI Board model SB0460:
 - original MC33078 opamp is MIC-IN configured in MONO mode and *NOT a LINE-IN opamp,* as shown in other parts of this thread.
 - only half the opamp is used.
 - inputs, In+2 and In-2, are *shorted to ground.* (to keep the second, unused opamp in quiescent state)
 - output, Out2, is left open. (to insure opamp current demand is minimal)
 - SB0460 Line-IN is capacitively coupled to the Wolfson WM8775 ADC, via C21 (J1 connector) and C22 (MIC-IN/Flexijack)

 Picture:
http://www.esnips.com/doc/0b57366d-e.../X-FI-MOD-083b

 REF:
 MC33078 Datasheet: http://www.onsemi.com/pub/Collateral/MC33078-D.PDF_

 

You rule Bichi. PM me with your addy and I will send you the cap 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Whew


----------



## Maniac

Just got my first SB series card after like 10 years of absence, I used to have a SB Pro a long long time back. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





 I have traced the wire that concern the primary two channels, it originates from DAC's pin 23, 24, 25, 26. Which is the differential output for the L and R channel. Since it is differential output into a op-amp with differential input, the net result of the DC on the original signal is canceled out. leaving only the signal in place.

 People were right about those cap are not output caps for the opamp, those are actually the output caps for the DAC to OP. Which is really redundant. I have a AD1955 based DAC that uses similar circuit, and the DC bias automatically cancels out without the need for coupling capacitor.

 Some might feel uneasy about it, as in times of failure, there's no cap to block DC.


 But one gotta ask themselves, how often does that happen? If a reference design from a reputable DAC supplier is like that, I feel that there is no need for concern and just go for it. (Which I did)

 I just took out some enamel wire, strip the coating and shorted all four caps of the primary channels.


 But as usual, YMMV, Do it at your own risk.


----------



## lutorm

Hey all,
 So I read about this mod that seemed pretty easy... Well... (don't ask). I now find myself in need of a new SMT cap next to the opamp (I think it's a cap, it's beige as opposed to brown). It's this one:




 Trouble is, I can't get a new one since don't know what the value is. I don't suppose anyone here knows what it is, do they?


----------



## Gautama

Can anyone link me to some good caps to replace the 4 by the opamp? Preferably from mouser or newark and less than $10 for all 4.


----------



## Maniac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Gautama* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Can anyone link me to some good caps to replace the 4 by the opamp? Preferably from mouser or newark and less than $10 for all 4._

 

you don't need a cap there, just short it out.

 Creative's designer in their infinite wisdom decided to put coupling cap between DAC and OP amp when DAC is sending out differential signal. As an app note in National's audio product had said, a simple copper wire works better then caps, even those uber expensive teflon caps.

 (Damn, it must be fun using company money to play with stuff like that....)

 When you do short it out, do not remove the cap just yet. The cap will exert no effect on the signal once you have short it out, and the cap's leg also works as the "support" for your short copper wire. It takes about 5 minute including the warm up time of my soldering iron.


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lutorm* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey all,
 So I read about this mod that seemed pretty easy... Well... (don't ask). I now find myself in need of a new SMT cap next to the opamp (I think it's a cap, it's beige as opposed to brown). It's this one: xxx Trouble is, I can't get a new one since don't know what the value is. I don't suppose anyone here knows what it is, do they?_

 

*Lutorm,*
 - another lucky fekker-head...
 - just happened to have the SB0460 out while repairing Germanium's blown SB0550.
 - your missing cap measures *952pF* and is connected to pin 3 (+INPUT) of the Line-Out opamp and signal ground, with opamp out of circuit.
 - reads the same value for same capacitor, but on the "other" channel, pin 5 (+INPUT), Line-Out opamp.
 - (see Cirrus Logic CS4382 Eval board datasheet, page 12, C67 and C63, link below)
 - CS Eval datasheet specifies a 1500pF, C0G type capacitor and appears to be SMT size 0603.
 - given unknown Creative design specs, Cirrus Eval datasheet, tolerance variences, and direct measurement results, my guess is:

*1000pf (1nf), C0G (NPO) type, 0603 size, SMT, ML capacitor.* 

 REF:
 AVX PN: 06035A102KAT2A - DigiKey PN: 478-3718-1-ND
 Digikey Catalog, page 1593: http://dkc3.digikey.com/PDF/T073/1583-1601.pdf

 Cirrus Logic CS4382 Eval Board Datasheet:
http://www.cirrus.com/en/pubs/rdData...cs4382eb-2.pdf


----------



## lutorm

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bichi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_- your missing cap measures *952pF* and is connected to pin 3 (+INPUT) of the Line-Out opamp and signal ground, with opamp out of circuit.
 - reads the same value for same capacitor, but on the "other" channel, pin 5 (+INPUT), Line-Out opamp.
 - (see Cirrus Logic CS4382 Eval board datasheet, page 12, C67 and C63, link below)
 - CS Eval datasheet specifies a 1500pF, C0G type capacitor and appears to be SMT size 0603.
 - given unknown Creative design specs, Cirrus Eval datasheet, tolerance variences, and direct measurement results, my guess is:

*1000pf (1nf), C0G (NPO) type, 0603 size, SMT, ML capacitor.* 

 REF:
 AVX PN: 06035A102KAT2A - DigiKey PN: 478-3718-1-ND
 Digikey Catalog, page 1593: http://dkc3.digikey.com/PDF/T073/1583-1601.pdf_

 

Sweet, there is still hope! Thanks a bunch!


----------



## hardnrg

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Maniac* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_you don't need a cap there, just short it out.
 When you do short it out, do not remove the cap just yet. The cap will exert no effect on the signal once you have short it out, and the cap's leg also works as the "support" for your short copper wire. It takes about 5 minute including the warm up time of my soldering iron. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Or you could use a silver conductive paint pen... takes about 10 seconds for all 4 caps


----------



## Maniac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hardnrg* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Or you could use a silver conductive paint pen... takes about 10 seconds for all 4 caps _

 

Aha~~ That's the spirit. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Kinda expensive tho, last I checked, it had been classified in my mind as the "Too expensive, too rarely used" type of tools 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Still, good idea for those who don't want to use soldering iron.


----------



## ter1

Germanium, I put the 2 caps back, and these days I use a fan to blow the card directly, everything is okay, but when I disconnect the fan, the card disconnect itself. This lead me to think the self shutdown is really caused by the heat.

 Only the regulator above the DSP is pretty warm,,, no other parts that warm,,,

 Do you have advice how to get rid of this strange situation? the fan is noisy and it's just a workaround...


----------



## lutorm

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bichi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*Lutorm,*
 - another lucky fekker-head...
 - just happened to have the SB0460 out while repairing Germanium's blown SB0550.
 - your missing cap measures *952pF* and is connected to pin 3 (+INPUT) of the Line-Out opamp and signal ground, with opamp out of circuit.
 - reads the same value for same capacitor, but on the "other" channel, pin 5 (+INPUT), Line-Out opamp.
 - (see Cirrus Logic CS4382 Eval board datasheet, page 12, C67 and C63, link below)
 - CS Eval datasheet specifies a 1500pF, C0G type capacitor and appears to be SMT size 0603.
 - given unknown Creative design specs, Cirrus Eval datasheet, tolerance variences, and direct measurement results, my guess is:

*1000pf (1nf), C0G (NPO) type, 0603 size, SMT, ML capacitor.* _

 

I got my capacitor today, and was very happy to see that (after I finally managed to sold it in place) my card is now working again, with the 4562 in place! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	










 At this point I'm so happy that it would probably sound awesome even if I had put the old opamp in... The 0603 size is a little bigger than the stock components, at least on my card, but it's close enough that the pads fit, and it just made it a little easier to see to solder.

 Just wanted to thank you again for measuring out that part and saving me $140 on a new card! I owe you man!

 I picked up an XtremeGamer Fatal1ty in case this one was beyond saving, but it looks like I can return it now. Incidentally, my old XtremeMusic picks up absolutely zero EMI, nothing audible. The new "Fatal1ty" was awful, it hissed and hummed loudly with mouse motion, frame rate in games, etc. Kind of annoying to get a more expensive card and then have it perform so poorly... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Much more happy with my old one! Is it just random between different cards, or are the Fatal1ty ones just worse than XtremeMusic across the board in picking up noise?


----------



## spacemanspliff

No. Sounds like you have a crappy card.


----------



## applevalleyjoe

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Twitchy_one* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ Also, how do you short the other caps? I see it explained but I don't know how to do this. I'm pretty much completely new & without tools but I am interested in tinkering with it... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 And for the ERS paper, does it have a sticky surface on one side, otherwise how does it stay on the card? Thanks, Twitchy_

 

You can buy the ERS paper with or without the sticky back...the latter is more expensive. Like you, I am also wondering what precisely must be done to short the caps?


----------



## Maniac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *applevalleyjoe* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You can buy the ERS paper with or without the sticky back...the latter is more expensive. Like you, I am also wondering what precisely must be done to short the caps?_

 

Does anyone have a high res pic of the back of the sound card? xtrememusic's back to be exact, if it have a clear image of the cap, I'll point out where to short it.

 I must repeat that those bank of electrolytic caps are NOT power supply caps, or else something WILL blow up if you short it. If you are careful and have a strong light/good eyes, you can trace the wires going from the cap to the DAC chip. 2 cap per channel, 4 cap per OP.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Maniac* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just got my first SB series card after like 10 years of absence, I used to have a SB Pro a long long time back. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





 I have traced the wire that concern the primary two channels, it originates from DAC's pin 23, 24, 25, 26. Which is the differential output for the L and R channel. Since it is differential output into a op-amp with differential input, the net result of the DC on the original signal is canceled out. leaving only the signal in place.

 People were right about those cap are not output caps for the opamp, those are actually the output caps for the DAC to OP. Which is really redundant. I have a AD1955 based DAC that uses similar circuit, and the DC bias automatically cancels out without the need for coupling capacitor.

 Some might feel uneasy about it, as in times of failure, there's no cap to block DC.


 But one gotta ask themselves, how often does that happen? If a reference design from a reputable DAC supplier is like that, I feel that there is no need for concern and just go for it. (Which I did)

 I just took out some enamel wire, strip the coating and shorted all four caps of the primary channels.


 But as usual, YMMV, Do it at your own risk._

 

You are very correct. The only things negative I found by shorting the coupling caps is a slight & I mean *slight* increase in second harmonic distortion. All other harmonic distortion the same or reduced. There is a slight increase in noise below 1KHz on the elite pro card as well but you will not likely see that on the lower cards. What you will see though on the lower cards but not on the elite pro card is high D.C. offset. About 180mv or more as opposed to less than 5mv on the elite pro.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ter1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Germanium, I put the 2 caps back, and these days I use a fan to blow the card directly, everything is okay, but when I disconnect the fan, the card disconnect itself. This lead me to think the self shutdown is really caused by the heat.

 Only the regulator above the DSP is pretty warm,,, no other parts that warm,,,

 Do you have advice how to get rid of this strange situation? the fan is noisy and it's just a workaround..._

 

Someting is drawing too much current or it is too close to other heat generators. Mine gets pretty hot too but that is true for both the regulator & DSP unit if left on long enough. Mine never shuts down though. Neither of my elite pros did that & I have the breakout box connected all the time. I do have a video card above mine though with a healthy size Zalman fan though & nothing below that generates heat. The only other thing I can think of is a out of spec circuit breaker. 

 You could try asking bichi if he has any ideas as i'm running low on them myself. I know it must be frusterating. It would be to me also. I have none of that problem myself.


----------



## Maniac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You are very correct. The only things negative I found by shorting the coupling caps is a slight & I mean *slight* increase in second harmonic distortion. All other harmonic distortion the same or reduced. There is a slight increase in noise below 1KHz on the elite pro card as well but you will not likely see that on the lower cards. What you will see though on the lower cards but not on the elite pro card is high D.C. offset. About 180mv or more as opposed to less than 5mv on the elite pro._

 

Well, I never thought too much about DC offset of X-Fi, but I guess I'll measure it tonight. It is not currently connected to anything expensive, so I didn't really check and recheck and check again.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Maniac* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, I never thought too much about DC offset of X-Fi, but I guess I'll measure it tonight. It is not currently connected to anything expensive, so I didn't really check and recheck and check again. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

High D.C. offset would only be a serious problem with D.C. coupled amplifiers (amplifiers that can amplify D.C.) as it would cause them to over heat & possably damage the speakers as well but these type of amps are not likely to be found in anything that is meant to be connected to the computer. 

 Direct coupled preamps can generate noise in thier volume pots as well with high D.C. offset feeding them. This is a scratchy sound when the volume is changed only. Digital colume controllers will pop at each change in level if direct coupled.


----------



## lutorm

So after letting my card run for a couple of hours I did a listening test with it and the unmodified Fatal1ty, and I have to say I can't hear the slightest difference. Zip. I just have this feeling that the modded card has a slightly less "sharp" feeling, but there's no way I would be able to tell them apart in a double-blind test.


----------



## spacemanspliff

anyone know the output of the X-Fi digital out using a multimeter? I need to know so I can adjust my Ori dac accordingly. thanks


----------



## BigSurSpoon

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Maniac* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_you don't need a cap there, just short it out._

 

Sorry for the noobish question, but HOW DO you short it out?


----------



## Maniac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *BigSurSpoon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sorry for the noobish question, but HOW DO you short it out?_

 

Well, just solder a small piece of copper wire across the two legs of the capacitor, one per capacitor, and soldering on 4 pieces was all I did.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lutorm* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So after letting my card run for a couple of hours I did a listening test with it and the unmodified Fatal1ty, and I have to say I can't hear the slightest difference. Zip. I just have this feeling that the modded card has a slightly less "sharp" feeling, but there's no way I would be able to tell them apart in a double-blind test._

 

If your sound system isn't up to to the same level as the card you may not hear much difference. All my sound system has been modified with high resolution in mind & the diferences are actually pronounced on my system.

 Check here for my sound system specshttp://www.head-fi.org/forums/member.php?u=43462


----------



## bichi

Have been working on Germanium's SB0550 and documented info that may be useful for other's modding/troubleshooting the Elite version...

 SB0550 - X-FI Elite Pro only:
 - *(UPDATED)* Nov 03, 2007

*LINE-OUT:*
 U7: Line-Out opamp (NJM2114)
 C45, C35, C58, C49: Line-OUT coupling capacitors to Cirrus Logic CS4398 DAC (Jamicon SS, 47uf @ 16vdc)
 C45, C35 = Right; C58,C49 = Left
_*BIAS: 0.023uvdc, measured across sleeve-ring and sleeve-tip, 47uf coupled
 *BIAS: Coupling-caps shorted (100ohm): +3.1 mvdc Right, -2.2mvdc Left, measured across sleeve-ring and sleeve-tip (AD8599)
 *BIAS: 2.5vdc @ 1.55ma, measured across coupling capacitor, post initialization (supplied after relays set, un-mute)_

*LINE-IN:*
 U3: Line-IN Opamp (I5532; equiv to NJM5532)
 C27, C15: Line-IN coupling capacitors (Wincap NP, 10uf @ 16vdc)
 U5, U2: Differential opamps (I5532; equiv to NJM5532) to AKM AK5394 ADC
 C29, C14: U3 Line-IN opamp coupling capacitors to U2, U5 differential opamps (Jamicon 47uf @ 16vdc)
_*BIAS: C27, C15: 1.9mvdc @ 0.02ua, measured across coupling capacitor
 *BIAS: C29, C14: 2.45vdc @ 1.45ma, measured across coupling capacitor_

*ANALOG/AUDIO SIGNAL PATHS:*
 Line-OUT: J1 <- relays <- U7 opamp <- C45, C35, C58, C49 coupling caps <- CS4398 DAC
 Line-IN: Flexijack -> relays -> C27, C15 -> U3 opamp -> C29, C14 -> U5, U2 opamps, differential -> AK5394 ADC

*VOLTAGE REGULATORS:*
 VR1: 78M05; supplies Cirrus Logic CS4398 DAC (x4), +5vdc, Va, analog sections
 VR2: 79L05A; supplies 74HCT4053 analog mux, -5vdc 
 VR3: AMS1117-3.3; supplies Cirrus Logic CS4398 DAC (x4), +3.3vdc, Vd, and AKM AK5394 ADC, Vd, +3.3vdc, digital sections
 VR4: 78M05; supplies AKM AK5394 ADC, Va, +5vdc, analog section and +2.5vdc BIAS divider for U3, U5 
 U21: TPS54352; supplies X-FI CA20K1, +1.2vdc switching regulator

*POWER FILTER CAPACITORS:*
 C104: +12vdc from PCI bus, (Jamicon SS, 220uf @ 25vdc)
 C133: -12vdc from PCI bus, (Jamicon SS, 220uf @ 25vdc)
 C154: +5vdc from PCI bus, (Jamicon SS, 22uf @ 16vdc)
 C151: +1.2vdc from U21 (TI TPS54352) switching regulator to X-FI CA20K1 DSP (Jamicon WL, 220uf @ 16vdc)
_*CAUTION: C151 should not be "ultra-low ESR" capacitor, ie., OSCON, etc. See TI TPS54352 datasheet, page 22_

*POWER BYPASS/DECOUPLING CAPACITORS:*
 C52: VR1 +12vdc input (Jamicon 22uf @ 16vdc)
 C55: VR1 +5vdc output (Jamicon 47uf @ 16vdc)
 C109: VR2 -5vdc output (Jamicon SS, 22uf @ 25vdc)
 C131: VR3 +3.3vdc output (Jamicon SS, 22uf @ 25vdc)
 C6: VR4 +5vdc output (Wincap 10uf @ 16vdc)
 C149: CN3 to AD-Link +12vdc (Jamicon SS, 22uf @ 25vdc)
 C19: +12vdc input for U3, U5, U2 Line-IN opamps (Wincap 10uf @ 16vdc)
 C17: -12vdc input for U3, U5, U2 Line-IN opamps (Wincap 10uf @ 16vdc)
 C193: +2.5vdc U5, U2 BIAS divider, from VR4 (Jamicon 22uf @ 16vdc)

*POWER PATHS:*
 +12vdc PCI Bus -> C104 -> V+ Line-OUT/IN, DIFF opamps -> VR1 and VR4 +5vdc 78M05 regulators -> +5vdc CS4398 and AK5395 analog section
 -12vdc PCI BuS -> C133 -> V- Line-OUT/IN, DIFF opamps -> VR2 -5vdc 79L05A -> 74HCT4053 analog mux
 +5vdc PCI Bus -> C154 -> V+ 3.3vdc AMS1117 -> CS4398 (x4) and AK5394, Vd, digital sections 
 +5vdc PCI Bus -> U21 TPS54352 +1.2vdc switching regulator -> C151 -> X-FI CA20K1 DSP

 CN3 +12vdc (ext power) -> Polyswitch F1 -> C146 -> AD Link
_(note: external power does not supply any other section on the card)_ 

*OTHER CAPACITORS:*
 Cirrus Logic CS4398 DAC Filter Ref (FILT+) and Voltage Reference (VREF) 
 C40: Positive Voltage Reference (FILT+) to GND (G-Luxon SS, 100uf @ 25vdc) 
 C60: Voltage Reference, internal sampling (Jamicon SS, 47uf @ 16vdc)
_*CAUTION: see page 19, CS4398 datasheet before modifying values_ 

*AKM AK 5394: Offset Calibration Capacitors:* (VREFL +/-/R/L)
 C47, C51, C7, C4: Offset Calibration Capacitors: (VREFL +/-/R/L) (Jamicon SS, 470uf @ 6.3vdc)
_*CAUTION: see page 15, AKM AK5394 datasheet before modifying values_
 C48: Serial Interface Timing (SMODE) (Wincap 10uf @ 16vdc) 
_*CAUTION: see pages 4, 10, AKM AK5394 datasheet before modifying value_

*TEMPERATURES:* (AMB: 72f/22c; 60mins; taken on "power-only" test fixture, no cooling fans)
 U7: Line-OUT opamp: 127f/53c
 U3, U5, U2: Line-IN opamps: 123f/51c
 VR1: 95f/35c; VR2: 90f/32c; VR3: 95f/35c; VR4: 120f/49c; U21: 97f/36c
 U4: ADC AK5395: 122f/50c

*Reference Picture:*
http://www.esnips.com/doc/c8b7ada7-b.../X-FI-MOD-084b

*Key / Description:* (in zipped TXT format)
http://www.esnips.com/doc/a397a894-6.../X-FI-MOD-085b

_Add/Corrected:
 a) X-FI LEDs are not powered by VR3, but supplied direct from +5vdc PCI BUS
 b) added: audio signal paths
 c) added: temps, power-only test fixture
 d) added: DC voltages: Line-Out coupling-caps shorted

*REF:*
 TI 78M05
http://www.ti.com/lit/gpn/ua78m05
 TI 79L05
http://www.ti.com/lit/gpn/mc79l05
 TI TPS54352
http://www.ti.com/lit/gpn/tps54352
 AMS AM1117-3.3
http://www.advanced-monolithic.com/pdf/ds1117.pdf
 Cirrus Logic CS4398
http://www.cirrus.com/en/pubs/proDat.../CS4398_F1.pdf
 ASAHI KASEI AK5394
http://www.asahi-kasei.co.jp/akm/en/...5394a_f03e.pdf
 Fairchild LCX245 (74LCX245)
http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ds/74/74LCX245.pdf_


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_"Someting is drawing too much current or it is too close to other heat generators. <xxxx> You could try asking bichi if he has any ideas as i'm running low on them myself..."_

 

*Germanium and Ter1,*

 - refer to above post for details

 1) Given Line-OUT coupling capacitors have a 2.5vdc BIAS @ 1.55ma, shorting four will cause additional 6.2ma load on the VR1 regulator. Shorting all 16 Line-Out coupling caps would add 24ma. Each of the four CS4398's nominally consume 25ma, totaling 100ma. The 78M05 is rated at MAX 500ma and nominally would be loaded at under 125ma to remain "cool to the touch," given alotted PCB space. Also note measured temperatures of regulators.

 2) The Polyswitch F1 only protects the supply connected to the external CN3 plug, +12vdc (ext power). It goes directly to
 the AD plug. It does NOT supply power to any sections of the card itself and is not causing the card to "shutdown."

 I'm still not sure which regulator is getting "hot," so maybe use the reference picture in post above and indicate by "VR" number?


----------



## ter1

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bichi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*Germanium and Ter1,*

 - refer to above post for details

 1) Given Line-OUT coupling capacitors have a 2.5vdc BIAS @ 1.55ma, shorting four will cause additional 6.2ma load on the VR1 regulator. Shorting all 16 Line-Out coupling caps would add 24ma. Each of the four CS4398's nominally consume 25ma, totaling 100ma. The 78M05 is rated at MAX 500ma and nominally would be loaded at under 125ma to remain "cool to the touch," given alotted PCB space. Also note measured temperatures of regulators.

 2) The Polyswitch F1 only protects the supply connected to the external CN3 plug, +12vdc (ext power). It goes directly to
 the AD plug. It does NOT supply power to any sections of the card itself and is not causing the card to "shutdown."

 I'm still not sure which regulator is getting "hot," so maybe use the reference picture in post above and indicate by "VR" number?_

 

bichi, Germanium, thanks for your detailed information!!

 1. For my card, it's VR4 that is the hottest. I didn't notice VR1's temp since it's under my replaced caps of C55, C48 and C52. I shorted all the 16 caps plus the 2 line-in caps, I don't know how the shorting of line-in caps add current to VR4?

 2. For C151, I changed it to BG 16v3300uf one, can you confirm whether this change could cause the shutdown? I don't know the card parameters of in TPS54352 datasheet, so I don't know whether 3300uf is too big for the TPS54352.

 3. Besides the above change, I also changed the value of the following caps:
 a) c104 and c133 to 50v1000uf
 b) c47, c51, c7, c4 to 6.3v1000uf
 Are the above value change making sense or good for sound quality? Can this cause self-protection? I don't think so for latter.

 4. Besides the above changes, I changed all the caps on board to the same value better electrolyte ones. I know you'll suggest use different kinds of caps in digital and analog path, but that's too many words to be covered in this thread if you don't like to talk more on that!~

 5. I changed all the 7 opamps to LME49860, I think the change draws more current to VR1 and VR4 that caused the heat/overcurrent protection?

 6. I bypassed all the 4 c40 with 400v6.8uf SOLEN. I bypassed all the 4 c60 with 400v3.3uf SOLEN. I bypassed C104 and C133 and C151 with 400v22uf SOLEN. I think the bypass with cause more current through VR1, right? Will cause more current in VR4? Do you think the bypasses reasonable to sound quality?

 7. Since you confirmed the board will not use the external power that just the breakout box will use it. Then do you suggest I disconnect the CN3 in order to make less psu noise in the card? My psu is not good enough and noisy.


 If the self-shutdown after 30min didn't caused by the 3300uf BG DSP cap mod and did caused by the heat of VR4 or VR1 as per your examination, how to do with the 78M05? Can I change both/specific1 to another higher power ones? Because if I use a fan to blow the card, in the past 7 days, not shutdown, but if I remove the fan, shutdown in 30min!



 Thanks much!!

 Also, 
 1. Do you know what's the function of the 20-pin CI under U19?

 2. For the 2 diodes above and to the up left corner of PolySwitch F1, do you know what're the functions for the 2 diodes? I occasionally removed the 2 and shorted them, no malfunctions so far. Anyway, I'll change back the 2 diodes when I can get the component.

 In all, I like so much of the sound produced by the mods. Just the self-protection and the noisy added fan caused me mad, I really need your help, thanks again!


----------



## ROBSCIX

It seems to me after a little research, The X-Music's have the same DAC's and opamps as the Audigy 2 ZS? can anybody elaborate?


----------



## bichi

*Ter1,*

 1) Main goal is to solve your "shutdown" problem first, sound quality disscussion later.
 2) What is your ambient room and internal case temperatures? (should be Russian winter there, right?)
 3) Does the blue X-FI LED stay lit when your card is in "shutdown" mode? (powered by VR3)
 4) PSU make and model?
 5) Solder type and flux type? (SnPb or SnAgCu with rosen flux) 
 6) Assumes your added capacitors are not defective and do not have "high leakage" problem.
 7) Post a picture of your card installed in your PC? 

 1. For my card, it's VR4 that is the hottest. I didn't notice VR1's temp since it's under my replaced caps of C55, C48 and C52. I shorted all the 16 caps plus the 2 line-in caps, I don't know how the shorting of line-in caps add current to VR4?

*ANS:* Remove all coupling-cap shorts until "shutdown" problem is solved. VR1 supplies CS4398 (x4) +5vdc analog sections, which couple to Line-OUT opamps. Shorting will cause CS4398 output to "sink" additional 1.55ma per capacitor. Also note C48 controls AK5395 SMODE mode and should be left at original value. VR4? VR4 supplies AK5394 analog section....

 2. For C151, I changed it to BG 16v3300uf one, can you confirm whether this change could cause the shutdown? I don't know the card parameters of in TPS54352 datasheet, so I don't know whether 3300uf is too big for the TPS54352.

*ANS:* It is not C151 value, but the capacitor ESR type, where "ultra-low-ESR" capacitors are not optimal. BG 3300uf should be OK here, unless it is defective and has high-leakage.

 3. Besides the above change, I also changed the value of the following caps:
 a) c104 and c133 to 50v1000uf
 b) c47, c51, c7, c4 to 6.3v1000uf
 Are the above value change making sense or good for sound quality? Can this cause self-protection? I don't think so for latter.

*ANS:*
 a) C104 and C133 filter +/-12vdc from PCI bus and 1000uf should be OK.
 b) C47, C51, C7, C4 control AK5394 offset calibration and should be returned to original values until "shutdown" problem is solved.
 note: C48 controls AK5395 SMODE mode and should be left at original value. 

 4. Besides the above changes, I changed all the caps on board to the same value better electrolyte ones. I know you'll suggest use different kinds of caps in digital and analog path, but that's too many words to be covered in this thread if you don't like to talk more on that!~

*ANS:* Agreed. Solve "shutdown" problem first, then discuss "sound quality." Verify all electrolytics are installed with correct polarity. 

 5. I changed all the 7 opamps to LME49860, I think the change draws more current to VR1 and VR4 that caused the heat/overcurrent protection?

*ANS:* NJM2114=9ma, NJM2068=5ma, x5532=9ma, LME49860=10.5ma (typical) All the opamps draw current directly from +/-12vdc PCI bus, no regulator involved and should be OK, assuming new opamps are not defective.

 6. I bypassed all the 4 c40 with 400v6.8uf SOLEN. I bypassed all the 4 c60 with 400v3.3uf SOLEN. I bypassed C104 and C133 and C151 with 400v22uf SOLEN. I think the bypass with cause more current through VR1, right? Will cause more current in VR4? Do you think the bypasses reasonable to sound quality?

*ANS:* 
 - C40 and C60 (and rest of purple dotted caps) control CS4398's FILT+ and VRef. Not sure if bypassing all 7 caps has changed CS4398 current demand. I would disconnect all the added bypass caps in this section.
 - C104 and C133 are +/-12vdc filters from PCI bus and bypass caps should be OK.
 - C151 is the +1.2vdc power capacitor from TPS54352 switching regulator and bypass cap would not add much to sound quality.

 7. Since you confirmed the board will not use the external power that just the breakout box will use it. Then do you suggest I disconnect the CN3 in order to make less psu noise in the card? My psu is not good enough and noisy.

*ANS:* If you do not use AD Link, then disconnect external power plug until thermal shutdown problem is solved. Hard to say if noise from "noisy" PSU will get injected when AD-Link is not in use. If AD-Link is connected, then yes, excessive PSU noise might leak in via breakout box.

 If the self-shutdown after 30min didn't caused by the 3300uf BG DSP cap mod and did caused by the heat of VR4 or VR1 as per your examination, how to do with the 78M05? Can I change both/specific1 to another higher power ones? Because if I use a fan to blow the card, in the past 7 days, not shutdown, but if I remove the fan, shutdown in 30min!

*ANS:* There are higher current 3-pin regulators, but the limit is "thermal dissipation" when soldered to PCB. (PCB acts as heatsink) Secondly, PCB trace current carrying capability is another limit. The regulators are tricky to remove, especially 78M05's.

*OTHER:*
 1) Try installing card in another PC, to eliminate PC related problem.
 2) You mentioned "3hr" recovery after "shutdown." Normally, 3-pin regulators recover within seconds, after removal of short or excessive load. There is a remote possiblity of a "hairline" PCB trace fracture, marginal solder bridge or cold solder joint, which may have longer thermal "recovery" latency.

 Also,
 1. Do you know what's the function of the 20-pin CI under U19?

*ANS:*
 U20 = PCI bus data interface device. Fairchild LCX245 (74LCX245)
http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ds/74/74LCX245.pdf

 2. For the 2 diodes above and to the up left corner of PolySwitch F1, do you know what're the functions for the 2 diodes? I occasionally removed the 2 and shorted them, no malfunctions so far. Anyway, I'll change back the 2 diodes when I can get the component.

*ANS:*
*NEVER, NEVER SHORT DIODES!!*
 - if the diode is a rectifier, zener or clamp, it can short power supplies
 - if the diode is a "snubber" it will cause short to control circuit (like D1, D10, D7, D9, snubber for relays on the X-FI Elite)
 - if the diode is a small signal detector, it can cause amplifier stages to overload 
 - if the diode is a "logic buffer," it can cause logic device to behave erratically or latch

 D8 and D11 are related to Xilinx XC9536XL. (complex programmable logic) It's +3.3vdc is supplied by VR3. Since this is programmed by Creative, it's specific function is unknown. *Remove shorts NOW!*

 In all, I like so much of the sound produced by the mods. Just the self-protection and the noisy added fan caused me mad, I really need your help, thanks again!


----------



## bichi

Finally got Germanium's card operating again...
 - started with Germanium accidentally shorting something near C15 and D9.
 - repaired burnt trace near Flexijack/Line-OUT/Mic-IN.
 - replaced SW2 relay, open contacts.
 - replaced R35, failed "open." (+12vdc, 4.7ohm current limiting resistor for U3, U5 and U2)
 - replaced U5 and U2, NJM5532.
 - installed missing L12 ferrite bead.
 - installed missing U19 with NJM5532. (stock = NJM2068)
 - replaced AK5394 ADC. (blown audio-in channel)
 - replaced VR4, 78M05 regulator. (blew during test after almost completing repairs)

 Components installed for test:
 - stock NJM2114 opamp for Line-OUT.
 - replacement 47uf @ 16vdc, Line-OUT coupling capacitors, C45, C35, C58, C49. (originals not sent)
 - stock NJM5532 Line-IN opamp. (original not sent)
 - replacement 22uf @ 16vdc, Line-IN coupling capacitors, C27, C15. (originals not sent)

 Other Modifications:
 - U3 and U7 socketed.
 - C104, C133: Panasonic FC, 220uf @ 25vdc from G-Luxon SM, 220uf @ 25vdc. (+/-12vdc from PCI bus)
 - C154: Panasonic FC, 220uf @ 25vdc from Jamicon SS, 22uf @ 16vdc. (+5vdc from PCI bus)
 - C151: Panasonic FK, SMT, 1500uf @ 16vdc from Jamicon WL, 220uf @ 16vdc. (+1.2vdc for CA20K1)
 - various power de-coupling/bypass capacitors replaced with tantalum at stock values.

 Off to snag dinner at neighbors, if anything is left.......

 Picture:
http://www.esnips.com/doc/d7cc9964-e.../X-FI-MOD-086b

 RMAA v6.0.6: (96/24 and 48/24)
 DETAILED:
http://www.esnips.com/doc/b3c83c05-f.../X-FI-MOD-087b


----------



## bichi

Phone conversation with Germanium, discussing function of C29 and C14:
 - C29, C14: U3 Line-IN opamp coupling capacitors to U2, U5 differential opamps. (Jamicon 47uf @ 16vdc)
 - BIAS: Differential coupling caps, C29, C14: 2.53vdc @ 1.45ma, measured across capacitor.

 In the process of tracing circuit, discoverd C14 measured 26.3uf and is out of spec for a 47uf.
 - socketed C29 and C14.
 - replaced both C29 and C14 with Panasonic SM, 47uf @ 16vdc.
 - corrected Left-Right frequency response difference, between 0~200hz. 

 RMAA v6.0.6 test results with replaced differential coupling caps: (96/24 and 48/24)
 SUMMARY: http://www.esnips.com/doc/cf594ffe-0.../X-FI-MOD-089b
 DETAIL: http://www.esnips.com/doc/b45011d4-3.../X-FI-MOD-088b


----------



## ter1

bichi, thanks so much for your detailed information!!

 1) Main goal is to solve your "shutdown" problem first, sound quality disscussion later.
 Ter>>>>>>> Yes, that's true!
 2) What is your ambient room and internal case temperatures? (should be Russian winter there, right?)
 Ter>>>>>>> ~ 18C ambient, the chassis cover is open.
 3) Does the blue X-FI LED stay lit when your card is in "shutdown" mode? (powered by VR3)
 Ter>>>>>>> Yes, lit when in "shutdown mode".
 4) PSU make and model?
 Ter>>>>>>> A small factory product. I don't think it's the PSU caused the shutdown.
 5) Solder type and flux type? (SnPb or SnAgCu with rosen flux) 
 Ter>>>>>>> My friend did the mods, he is the electronics technician and used good solder and flux.
 6) Assumes your added capacitors are not defective and do not have "high leakage" problem.
 Ter>>>>>>> Tested before applications.
 7) Post a picture of your card installed in your PC? 
 Ter>>>>>>> not current have the pictures yet. There is no adjacent components near the card in the open chassis.

 -----------
 I'll send the card to my friend tomorrow to do the following changes
 1. change the VR1 and VR4 to large current ones or just cover them with heatsink.
 2. change back the 2 diodes near F1.

 Besides the above changes, I want to confirm with you some of my other concerns to see if some other changes can be made together tomorrow. Could you please have time to answer them?

 1. Is it possible to change the 24.576m crystal oscillator to a better 4-pin TCXO 1ppm one? CL value?

 2. Are there any components missing in original board due to budget control of Creative that if added can improve stability or sound quality? If so, what can be added? specs of them?

 3. For digital parts, could you confirm which caps can be replaced instead of my electrolytic ones? Is that okay I keep all the caps as electrolytic ones from sound quality perspective or OSCON ones for digital parts better for sound quality?

 4. According to Germanium, I shorted all the 2 line-in caps and 16 line-out caps. Is that okay if I just use earphones and do not use mike?

 5. Can I short c14 and c29?

 6. c149 in your picture will not be used if CN3 and breakout box is not used, right?

 Thanks!


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ter1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_...Besides the above changes, I want to confirm with you some of my other concerns to see if some other changes can be made together tomorrow. Could you please have time to answer them?
 Thanks!..._

 

3) Does the blue X-FI LED stay lit when your card is in "shutdown" mode? (powered by VR3)
 Ter>>>>>>> Yes, lit when in "shutdown mode".
*ANS:* Good! - at least VR3 is not entering thermal/overload shutdown.

 1. Is it possible to change the 24.576m crystal oscillator to a better 4-pin TCXO 1ppm one? CL value?
*ANS:* Possible, but will require design and components to adapt 4-pin to 2-pin. Consult/search oscillator company's application notes for details or ask your "tech" friend. This is not a "casual" task.

 2. Are there any components missing in original board due to budget control of Creative that if added can improve stability or sound quality? If so, what can be added? specs of them?
*ANS:* See "green" comments in picture, post #1409. "Rounded/colored" capacitors are tantalum at stock values. Critical capacitors are noted in post #1404. Audio coupling capacitor type/values and shorting vs. no-short is a personal decision, balancing risk against sound quality. Same for bypassing power capacitors. 

 Audio coupling capacitor opinons are wide, ie., "electrolytics suck for audio coupling," "only use bipolar," "only use paper-oil," "Infinicap are the best," yakkity-yak.... See post #1312, coupling-cap value and its effect on frequency response. See this as one of MANY opinions: http://www.maxim-ic.com/appnotes.cfm/an_pk/3171

 3. For digital parts, could you confirm which caps can be replaced instead of my electrolytic ones? Is that okay I keep all the caps as electrolytic ones from sound quality perspective or OSCON ones for digital parts better for sound quality?
*ANS:* Same answer as question #2. Depends on your personal taste. Some claim "ultra-low ESR capacitors," ie., OSCON, E/PCAP, etc., sound too harsh while others claim better "accuracy/soundstage."

 4. According to Germanium, I shorted all the 2 line-in caps and 16 line-out caps. Is that okay if I just use earphones and do not use mike?
*ANS:* Data to make your personal decision is in post #1404. I would recommend discussing technical risks, ie., shorting causing additional current load and component stress with your "tech" friend. Use of headphone only or "no-mic" makes no difference, relative to additional component stress. (note that added load influences passive resistors as well as regulators) 

 5. Can I short c14 and c29?
*ANS:* Again, personal decision. (note that C14/C29 each have a +2.5vdc @ 1.45ma BIAS, supplied by VR4, filtered by C193)

 6. c149 in your picture will not be used if CN3 and breakout box is not used, right?
*ANS:* Correct, however, no reason to remove, even if external box or external power is not used.


----------



## bichi

SB0550 - X-FI Elite
 - Line-OUT shorted with 100ohm SMT film resistor. (C45, C35, C58, C49)
 - Line-OUT and Line-IN opamps: National Semi LME49860
 - down -1.5db compared to 47uf, cap-coupled, adjusted RMAA v6.0.6 REC level from 61% to 67%, for "0db."
 - BIAS: sleeve-ring: +3.2mvdc; sleeve-tip: -3.2mvdc (compared to +0.25mvdc with 47uf coupling-caps)
 - other component values as shown in post #1409

 SUBJECTIVE: Nice, flat with good definition across audio band. 

 RMAA v6.0.6 Results (48/24 and 96/24)
 SUMMARY: http://www.esnips.com/doc/c572b999-0.../X-FI-MOD-090b
 DETAIL: http://www.esnips.com/doc/a0b56b90-4.../X-FI-MOD-091b


----------



## germanium

Bichi now that you got the card working how does it sound??


----------



## ter1

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bichi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_3) Does the blue X-FI LED stay lit when your card is in "shutdown" mode? (powered by VR3)
 Ter>>>>>>> Yes, lit when in "shutdown mode".
*ANS:* Good! - at least VR3 is not entering thermal/overload shutdown.

 1. Is it possible to change the 24.576m crystal oscillator to a better 4-pin TCXO 1ppm one? CL value?
*ANS:* Possible, but will require design and components to adapt 4-pin to 2-pin. Consult/search oscillator company's application notes for details or ask your "tech" friend. This is not a "casual" task.

 2. Are there any components missing in original board due to budget control of Creative that if added can improve stability or sound quality? If so, what can be added? specs of them?
*ANS:* See "green" comments in picture, post #1409. "Rounded/colored" capacitors are tantalum at stock values. Critical capacitors are noted in post #1404. Audio coupling capacitor type/values and shorting vs. no-short is a personal decision, balancing risk against sound quality. Same for bypassing power capacitors. 

 Audio coupling capacitor opinons are wide, ie., "electrolytics suck for audio coupling," "only use bipolar," "only use paper-oil," "Infinicap are the best," yakkity-yak.... See post #1312, coupling-cap value and its effect on frequency response. See this as one of MANY opinions: http://www.maxim-ic.com/appnotes.cfm/an_pk/3171

 3. For digital parts, could you confirm which caps can be replaced instead of my electrolytic ones? Is that okay I keep all the caps as electrolytic ones from sound quality perspective or OSCON ones for digital parts better for sound quality?
*ANS:* Same answer as question #2. Depends on your personal taste. Some claim "ultra-low ESR capacitors," ie., OSCON, E/PCAP, etc., sound too harsh while others claim better "accuracy/soundstage."

 4. According to Germanium, I shorted all the 2 line-in caps and 16 line-out caps. Is that okay if I just use earphones and do not use mike?
*ANS:* Data to make your personal decision is in post #1404. I would recommend discussing technical risks, ie., shorting causing additional current load and component stress with your "tech" friend. Use of headphone only or "no-mic" makes no difference, relative to additional component stress. (note that added load influences passive resistors as well as regulators) 

 5. Can I short c14 and c29?
*ANS:* Again, personal decision. (note that C14/C29 each have a +2.5vdc @ 1.45ma BIAS, supplied by VR4, filtered by C193)

 6. c149 in your picture will not be used if CN3 and breakout box is not used, right?
*ANS:* Correct, however, no reason to remove, even if external box or external power is not used._

 

Thanks!!
 1. The short of line-in cap C29 and C14 will not cause harmful consequences to hardware, right? Just more current through VR4? I remembered Germanium said shorting of these 2 will cause hardware failure and damage card.

 2. From your newly posted picture, I see you added L12 "ferrite bead", what's the function of this? any more specs that I can choose to add it?

 Thanks!


----------



## germanium

deleted


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Bichi now that you got the card working how does it sound??_

 

ummm, what to say.....
 - clean, flat dynamics, excellent definition and power, airy and tight with NJM2114, LME49860, AD8599 and of course, the OPA2132, with its "Burr-Brown" sound.
 - delivers excellent monitor playback when doing NLE work with Vegas 7.0e, but can now hear filter defects applied in rendered tracks.
 - analog Line-IN recording is excellent, but a curse at the same time... read "hiiiissssssssss..." from old, original sources.
 - gotta fight impluse to upgrade playback to M-Audio BX-8's or Behringer B2031A's and use current BX-5's for rear channels... 
 - if you watch Stargate SG1, its like season 4, episode 18, "The Light..." - LOL!


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ter1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks!!
 1. The short of line-in cap C29 and C14 will not cause harmful consequences to hardware, right? Just more current through VR4? I remembered Germanium said shorting of these 2 will cause hardware failure and damage card.

 2. From your newly posted picture, I see you added L12 "ferrite bead", what's the function of this? any more specs that I can choose to add it?

 Thanks!_

 

#1 ANS: Suggest you ask your "tech" friend to explain to you... (I doubt that Germanium said shorting C29, C14 Line-IN, differential coupling caps would damage the card)

 #2 ANS: eh? added L12? - nope, its a stock part. Google be your friend... do some reading, then ask for clarification.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bichi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_- analog Line-IN recording is excellent, but a curse at the same time... read "hiiiissssssssss..." from old, original sources._

 

By hissss you mean from the old recording or from the ADC?


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_By hissss you mean from the old recording or from the ADC?_

 

eh?
 - originial 1" tape from Studer 24-track, dubbed down to ReVox A-77, 1/4" tape, cira 1982.
 - playback output from TEAC X-1000R to X-FI Elite analog Line-IN.
 - since X-FI Elite record section is much more accurate and tape hiss has same dynamics as whitenoise:
 - therefore, it's ummm, more "apparent" than "rounded," with less-accurate recording device.
 - (getting plenty of exercise, carrying that beast from entertainment room to PC/lab room.... LOL!)


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bichi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_#1 ANS: Suggest you ask your "tech" friend to explain to you... (I doubt that Germanium said shorting C29, C14 Line-IN, differential coupling caps would damage the card)

 #2 ANS: eh? added L12? - nope, its a stock part. Google be your friend... do some reading, then ask for clarification._

 

I didn't say damage but the ADC will likely not function correctly. It needs the 2.4-2.5 volts to operate correctly & shorting those particular caps will sink the D.C. through the output section of u3 opamp which could cause a problem if there is sufficient current to over heat the opamp. It is likely that little or no sound will be recorded in this configuration & what little sound is recorded I can pretty much guarrantee to be severely distorted.

 The inductor was indeed a stock part I removed myself.


----------



## germanium

deleted


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bichi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_eh?
 - originial 1" tape from Studer 24-track, dubbed down to ReVox A-77, 1/4" tape, cira 1982.
 - playback output from TEAC X-1000R to X-FI Elite analog Line-IN.
 - since X-FI Elite record section is much more accurate and tape hiss has same dynamics as whitenoise:
 - therefore, it's ummm, more "apparent" than "rounded," with less-accurate recording device.
 - (getting plenty of exercise, carrying that beast from entertainment room to PC/lab room.... LOL!)_

 

Hopefully you don't get a hernia carrying that computer . It does look pretty heavy. Or is it the recorder your talking about??


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bichi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_3) Does the blue X-FI LED stay lit when your card is in "shutdown" mode? (powered by VR3) *Ter>>>>>>> * Yes, lit when in "shutdown mode". *ANS:* Good! - at least VR3 is not entering thermal/overload shutdown._

 

*Ter1:*
 - corrected mistake: VR3 does NOT supply X-FI SB0550 Elite LEDs, but supplied direct from +5vdc PCI bus.
 - post #1404 updated, plus additional new info... 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hopefully you don't get a hernia carrying that computer . It does look pretty heavy. Or is it the recorder your talking about??_

 

-duuuh... As if I'd also carry display, keyboard, mouse, playback speakers, etc.. LOL!


----------



## holland

Bichi,

 How did you get your noise floor on the XtremeMusic down to 110+ dB?


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *holland* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Bichi,
 How did you get your noise floor on the XtremeMusic down to 110+ dB?_

 

- if you are referring to post #1410, RMAA Summary, it's for a SB0550, X-FI Elite version. (Germanium's repaired card)
 - best I got with a SB0460, X-FI Fatality, (same core board as Music) is RMAA Noise Level: -101.8db @ 48-24.

 Main difference between SB0460 and SB0550 are the DAC's and ADC's (from datasheets):

 SB0460:
 - Cirrus Logic CS4382 DAC (SNR: 114db) 
 - Wolfson WM8775 ADC (SNR: 102db)

 SB0550:
 - Cirrus Logic CS4398 DAC (SNR: 120db) 
 - Asahi Kasei AK5394 ADC (SNR: 123db A-weighted)


----------



## ter1

bichi, I measured the voltage of line-out, for left channel: 0.25mvdc, but for right channel to ground: 2.9mvdc. Is that okay?? the RMAA shows +0.00, +0.02 and I can't hear something abnormal using the HD650 earphone.


----------



## ter1

In Vista, in "Speakers Properties" --> "Advanced" --> "Default Format", I can select the sample rate and bit depth for "Shared Mode",

 my question is: for ASIO, these settings will not affect the sound, right? How about kernelstream as in foobar2k?

 I looked through MS KB, the ASIO and OpenAL will go directly to soundcard driver, not go to kmxer like DirectSound does. So I don't think the "shared mode" will affect ASIO. Am I right? But how about kernelstream? Can someone says a little about "shared mode" and "Exclusive mode"?

 Thanks!


----------



## Maniac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ter1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_bichi, I measured the voltage of line-out, for left channel: 0.25mvdc, but for right channel to ground: 2.9mvdc. Is that okay?? the RMAA shows +0.00, +0.02 and I can't hear something abnormal using the HD650 earphone._

 

The reason you can't hear anything abnormal with your HD650 is a very long one... but I can shorten it down to a few words...


 that is because everything is normal and working.


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ter1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_bichi, I measured the voltage of line-out, for left channel: 0.25mvdc, but for right channel to ground: 2.9mvdc. Is that okay?? the RMAA shows +0.00, +0.02 and I can't hear something abnormal using the HD650 earphone._

 

I don't run the SB0550 with Line-Out coupling capacitors shorted. Would be better to ask *Germanium* for current data. Here are some tips:

 a) When you say "ground," are you using PC "chassis" ground reference or cable "sleeve" as ground reference? At very low voltage measurement levels, depending on sensitivity/quality of your DVM, ground-loop noise can be misleading.

 b) Look for small right/left channel deviations in RMAA graphs. 

 c) Root cause could be deviations of internal DC BIAS network of CS4398, opamp and passive component leakage, 2-pole filter design, etc....

 d) Guessing 2.65mvdc delta shouldn't impact sound quality with low-impedance headphones (30~320ohm), but might when driving high-impedance (10k~50kohm) input to high-definition mixer/pre-amps/amps. Potential problem if driving high-gain, direct-coupled amps.


----------



## bichi

Had a bit of time and did a quick trace of SB0550 (Elite Pro) Line-Out section, specifically the 2-pole filter, after the Cirrus Logic CS4398 DAC. Did not trace further than "mute" transistors, relays or possible 3rd pole. 
 - wanted to get filter circuit to model with Texas Instruments new TINA v7.0 SPICE simulator release.
 - interesting to see effects of changing "coupling-cap" values, shorting coupling caps, etc.
 (virtual tools, ie., DVM, O-scope, signal-analyzer, etc)
 - TI's "FilterPro" also gives interesting modeling of specific active filter types, compared to Creative's design vs. Cirrus Logic recommended design: (see AN048 app note below)
 - any corrections/additions welcome.

 Close-up Picture of SB0550 Line-OUT section:
 - green "Q2" via --> "R63" via
 - green "Q10" via --> "R41" via
http://www.esnips.com/doc/667641c9-6.../X-FI-MOD-092b

 TI TINA circuit of SB0550 Line-OUT section:
 - stock TI OPA134 opamp selected (simulator is specific to TI parts)
 - note: DC BIAS section is internal to CS4398 DAC
http://www.esnips.com/doc/1fc4ecde-7.../X-FI-MOD-093b

 TI TINA AC and Noise simulator results:
http://www.esnips.com/doc/22981264-d.../X-FI-MOD-094b

*AudioTester,* German company offers an alternative to RMAA, with advanced tools:

 Whitenoise response of SB0550, loop-back mode, 96/16:
http://www.esnips.com/doc/3987f290-5.../X-FI-MOD-095b

 Dual tone 60hz + 1khz:
http://www.esnips.com/doc/46215e8b-3.../X-FI-MOD-096b


_*REF:*
 Texas Instruments TINA v7.0:
http://focus.ti.com/docs/toolsw/fold...t/tina-ti.html
 Texas Instruments Active Filter Design:
http://focus.ti.com/docs/toolsw/fold...filterpro.html
 Cirrus Logic: Design, 2-Pole Filter, Differential Input:
http://www.cirrus.com/en/pubs/appNote/AN048Rev2.pdf
 AudioTester: (shareware)
http://www.audiotester.de/_


----------



## Maniac

Nice work bichi,

 regarding the DC offset, 2.**mV is really not going to affect anything at all, even the highest powered systems. If you do measure those commercially available audio systems, a lot of them will have higher offsets than that.

 Since you have already setup your card to take anything in a socket, I'd really recommend you to try using a copper wire to replace the coupling caps. The DC will be gone by the time it had passed through the OP-Amp.



 As a side note, I've found my pre-amp (a very old Proton AP400 Pro for some reason was never opened until recently), actually have a small DC bias at its imput, about 0.4mV. I'm guessing it is from the length of the trace onboard. Since the meter will read something even higher when it is not connected to anything.  Before the input cap, it have about 10~20mV of DC, and I'm already thinking about getting rid of the coupling caps.


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Maniac* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Nice work bichi,
 "...Since you have already setup your card to take anything in a socket, I'd really recommend you to try using a copper wire to replace the coupling caps..."_

 

Been there, done that, with both SB0460 and SB0550 models (see post #1413 link below, for most recent "short" test)
 - objective is to compare "shorted" vs. "cap-coupled," started months ago, where Germanium "shorts" and I chose "cap-coupled" route.
 - if you read past posts, you can see Germanium mention increased IM and Noise values when shorting.
 - Creative's 2-pole differential filter design involves Cirrus Logic's DAC inherent DC BIAS and has an effect on performance.
 - if you install TI's TINA, load the SB0550 circuit and model it, you can see the effect, albeit, subtle.
 - also, there is 1.55ma current across each Line-OUT coupling cap, which the CS4398 DAC has to sink, if shorted. (also mentioned in past posts)

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Maniac* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_"...The DC will be gone by the time it had passed through the OP-Amp..."_

 

Not true, at least on a SB0550, from post #1404:
 *BIAS: 0.023uvdc, measured across sleeve-ring and sleeve-tip, 47uf coupled
 *BIAS: Coupling-caps shorted (100ohm): +3.1 mvdc Right, -2.2mvdc Left, measured across sleeve-ring and sleeve-tip (AD8599)
 *BIAS: 2.5vdc @ 1.55ma, measured across coupling capacitor, post initialization (supplied after relays set, un-mute) 

 Bottom line, "shorting" is a personal decision, relative to playback equipment, sound quality judgement, safety, etc.
 - all I am doing is making the observations and reporting technical results, such that persons can make an informed decision.

 Stay tuned, comparison/tests of "verboen" tantalum and MLC capacitors in audio-coupling.... 

_*REF:* 
 Post #1404:
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showpo...postcount=1404

 Post #1413:
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showpo...postcount=1413_


----------



## Maniac

Personally I would not worry much about single digit level DC bias in the output, what I would really be concerned is how would there be a 1.55ma current through the capacitor. Especially when DC bias is an extremely low 2.5VDC for the caps to block. Plus I'm also curious about what equipment is used to measure 0.023uV, that's like 23 nano volts.

 If you got the time, give your home stereo equipment a measure, I'll be willing to bet that most of them would measure as much if not more than what you got out of a direct coupled X-Fi.


----------



## ter1

Hi bichi, I want also to mod and improve the +/-12v and +5v power parts with better film caps (like RIFA or WIMA) instead of the stock ones, could you please indicate which ones are the stock ones for power filtering that can be modded/replaced? and the values of them?

 The 2nd concern is for the analog part beyond the DAC that is the part including the circuit surround the opamps. Are the stock ones (caps and resistors and other components) good enough to make good sound? Are there any possibilities to mod them? I think the analog circuit there is most vulnerable to interference and the quality of the components are more contribute to good sound than power supply circuit on board.

 Could you please give some advice on the above 2 questions (better with pictures  )? There are lots of such questions in our local forums...


----------



## stormcloud

This thread has been most informative, went through all 144 pages and I can tell you sometimes it makes my head spin. That argument on shorting the 22uF coupling caps vs bypassing them especially.

 I've got a question for bichu/germanium or anyone else that can shed some light into it : 

 Based on general opinion, electrolytic caps are bad for coupling in the direct signal path. Assuming there is a DC offset and one rules in favour against shorting/forming a wire bridge, would a straight forward replacement of those 22uF electrolytic caps with a polyester or polypropylene (values between 0.47uF - 1.5uF) work?


----------



## gameguytw

I Fix my Auzen X-fi Like this:

 Before Fix:
http://media.twango.com/m1/original/...33d5d3f0d5.jpg

 After Fix
http://media.twango.com/m1/original/...da4a8f66f9.jpg

 Change some CAP to BG N CAP on sound card,and get out oscon SVP CAP。


----------



## LawnGnome

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *stormcloud* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This thread has been most informative, went through all 144 pages and I can tell you sometimes it makes my head spin. That argument on shorting the 22uF coupling caps vs bypassing them especially.

 I've got a question for bichu/germanium or anyone else that can shed some light into it : 

 Based on general opinion, electrolytic caps are bad for coupling in the direct signal path. Assuming there is a DC offset and one rules in favour against shorting/forming a wire bridge, would a straight forward replacement of those 22uF electrolytic caps with a polyester or polypropylene (values between 0.47uF - 1.5uF) work?_

 


 Your low frequency response will lose a lot this way.


----------



## stormcloud

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LawnGnome* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Your low frequency response will lose a lot this way._

 

Thanks for that confirmation. It's been a long time from the EE I took at university, I'm just slowly getting back into the scene. Re-learning all this back is fairly exciting. It's perverse, I used to hate analog/power electronics 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 So it looks like I'm pretty much stuck to 22uF (or higher till 220uF) value for a straight forward replacement. Loosely basing the freq response on the simple high pass filter below :

 f = 1 / 2 * 3.1415 * R * C

 f = low freq cut-off (at 3dB)
 R = sum of impedance
 C = coupling capacitance

 - am I correct to assume that bypassing generally decreases impedance, increases the low feq cut-off, but gives you a (freq dependent) better mid-range and high-end?

 - any good suggestions for decent polyester/polypropylene caps 22uF - 220uF?

 - if using electrolytic cap, it's obvious that super low ESR caps like the OSCON offers better benefit than the standard cap

 --------------------

*updated :*

 Went back and trawled to post #1312 from bichi. Looks like 33uF is a good value.
 Looks like most (if not all) poly caps with the above sort of value are either uneconomical or simply too big a monster to mount on the X-Fi or both. I guess Blackgate N/NX bipolar is the next best bet ... oh well ..... gosh ... did I just answer my own questions? lol


----------



## LawnGnome

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *stormcloud* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks for that confirmation. It's been a long time from the EE I took at university, I'm just slowly getting back into the scene. Re-learning all this back is fairly exciting. It's perverse, I used to hate analog/power electronics 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 So it looks like I'm pretty much stuck to 22uF (or higher till 220uF) value for a straight forward replacement. Loosely basing the freq response on the simple high pass filter below :

 f = 1 / 2 * 3.1415 * R * C

 f = low freq cut-off (at 3dB)
 R = sum of impedance
 C = coupling capacitance

 - am I correct to assume that bypassing generally decreases impedance, increases the low feq cut-off, but gives you a (freq dependent) better mid-range and high-end?

 - any good suggestions for decent polyester/polypropylene caps 22uF - 220uF?

 - if using electrolytic cap, it's obvious that super low ESR caps like the OSCON offers better benefit than the standard cap

 --------------------

*updated :*

 Went back and trawled to post #1312 from bichi. Looks like 33uF is a good value.
 Looks like most (if not all) poly caps with the above sort of value are either uneconomical or simply too big a monster to mount on the X-Fi or both. I guess Blackgate N/NX bipolar is the next best bet ... oh well ..... gosh ... did I just answer my own questions? lol_

 


 You can get Solen poly caps in that range for surprisingly not much more than the BG NX's. If you have space above your card, you can fit them on the back of the pcb.


----------



## Maniac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *stormcloud* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This thread has been most informative, went through all 144 pages and I can tell you sometimes it makes my head spin. That argument on shorting the 22uF coupling caps vs bypassing them especially.

 I've got a question for bichu/germanium or anyone else that can shed some light into it : 

 Based on general opinion, electrolytic caps are bad for coupling in the direct signal path. Assuming there is a DC offset and one rules in favour against shorting/forming a wire bridge, would a straight forward replacement of those 22uF electrolytic caps with a polyester or polypropylene (values between 0.47uF - 1.5uF) work?_

 

As the other poster have stated, you may lose a lot of lower ends, but in either cases, it is not fun to have a pair (or 3~4 pairs) of high quality PP caps dangling on your sound card. It will definitely take out an additional slot or two by simply blocking the slots for other expansion cards.


 If you are *REALLY* afraid of the DC bias, here's something you can do.

 Short the onboard coupling caps, yes I know what you are thinking, but there's more.

 Pick a external enclosure of your liking that is capable of housing the number of capacitor that you need. (1 pair or 4 pairs, whichever you prefer)

 Wire the output of your sound card to the box and hook up the capacitor as follows:

 Input -> 100K Resistor to ground
 Input -> 1uF Capacitor -> Cap output
 Cap output -> 100K Resistor to ground
 Cap output -> Output connector on the box.

 Yay~~~ You got yourself an external capacitor coupling box... I haven't really calculate the low frequency dropoff point, but IIRC it should be quite low.


 You should wire some sort of cable to hook onto your sound card's standard output connector, instead of directly onto the PCB. Just for the sake of safety and reliability.


 The cap coupling box is also useful in cases where you are uncertain if there are going to to be DC bias in the output. This can be a useful "insurance" if you are modding and unsure if it will blow up in your face after 10 minutes of run-ins.


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *stormcloud* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This thread has been most informative, went through all 144 pages and I can tell you sometimes it makes my head spin. That argument on shorting the 22uF coupling caps vs bypassing them especially.
 I've got a question for bichu/germanium or anyone else that can shed some light into it : 
 Based on general opinion, electrolytic caps are bad for coupling in the direct signal path. Assuming there is a DC offset and one rules in favour against shorting/forming a wire bridge, would a straight forward replacement of those 22uF electrolytic caps with a polyester or polypropylene (values between 0.47uF - 1.5uF) work?_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *stormcloud* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks for that confirmation. It's been a long time from the EE I took at university, I'm just slowly getting back into the scene. Re-learning all this back is fairly exciting. It's perverse, I used to hate analog/power electronics 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 So it looks like I'm pretty much stuck to 22uF (or higher till 220uF) value for a straight forward replacement. Loosely basing the freq response on the simple high pass filter below :

 f = 1 / 2 * 3.1415 * R * C
 f = low freq cut-off (at 3dB)
 R = sum of impedance
 C = coupling capacitance
 - am I correct to assume that bypassing generally decreases impedance, increases the low feq cut-off, but gives you a (freq dependent) better mid-range and high-end?
 - any good suggestions for decent polyester/polypropylene caps 22uF - 220uF?
 - if using electrolytic cap, it's obvious that super low ESR caps like the OSCON offers better benefit than the standard cap
 --------------------
*updated :*
 Went back and trawled to post #1312 from bichi. Looks like 33uF is a good value.
 Looks like most (if not all) poly caps with the above sort of value are either uneconomical or simply too big a monster to mount on the X-Fi or both. I guess Blackgate N/NX bipolar is the next best bet ... oh well ..... gosh ... did I just answer my own questions? lol_

 


*stormcloud,*
 - yep, you may have answered your own questions...
 - assuming you don't want to hang large film-type caps, electrolytics, tantalums, MLCC (X7R, NPO) are not as bad as most think.
 - since you mention 22uf coupling cap, I assume you have a SB0460.
 - generally, lower the coupling cap value, less LF/bass response.
 - correct, 33uf seems to be the optimal value with Panasonic "S" SMT capacitors, for my playback system and tastes.
 - might consider socketing and trying different types, adjusting value/type to your personal tastes.
 - agreed, good quality "non-polar" might be worth a try.
 - I would not rule out tantalum or MLCC X7R capacitor types, regardless of conventional thinking about coupling-caps types.
 - beware it is a differential 2-pole active low-pass filter, after the DAC, and simple static formulas may not be appropriate.
 - you also mention taking university EE and might be interested in simulators, which allow easy modeling, relative to performance.
 - (links below)
 - SB0460 use small components, difficult to trace, determine values with parts "in-circuit" and load into a simulator.

 I purchased Germanium's blown card (SB0550), have traced the differential 2-pole LPF circuit.
 - parts are larger and SMT resistor values are labeled.
 - configured circuit for Texas Instruments TINA simulator. (*.TSC file, and TINA simulator, links below)
 - might be of interest to install TINA and play with coupling cap values and see how they affect frequency response, noise, S/N, etc. (painless, push-button AC/DC, Bode, FFT analysis compared to the old days)
 - Texas Instruments Active Filter Design, FilterPro is another "fun" application to play with. 
 - have experimented with tantalum and currently playing with MLCC caps, X7R, 22uf 16vdc (high volumetric efficiency)
 - will post MLCC cap results in a week or so...
 - results so far: "sounds more like wire, as opposed to a capacitor..."
 - TDK MLCC, SMT, PN: C3225X7R1C226M; 22uf @ 16vdc (might want to give these a go on your SB0460)
 - added: Wolfson coupling cap and AVX tant vs. MLCC whitepaper links


_*REF:*
 Texas Instruments TINA v7.0:
SPICE-Based Analog Simulation Program - TINA-TI - TI Tool Folder

 SB0550 2-Pole Active LPF Circuit File for TI TINA v7.0:
X-FI-MOD-097b - eSnips, share anything

 Texas Instruments Active Filter Design, FilterPro:
Active Filter Design Application - FILTERPRO - TI Software Folder

 TDK, MLCC, PN: C3225X7R1C226M; 22uf @ 16vdc @ Mouser:
http://www.mouser.com/catalog/631/679.pdf_

_*Added REFs:*
 Recommended Output Filters for Wolfson Audio DACs:
http://www.wolfsonmicro.com/uploads/...en/WAN0171.pdf

 Comparison of MLCC and Tantalum Capacitors:
http://www.avxcorp.com/docs/techinfo/mlc-tant.pdf_


----------



## mobayrasta

It is amazing what cotd and I started. I can't believe this thread has gone on so long and has gotten so detailed. From something that started with a PM saying hey I can make your X-fi sound better to 144 pages later allot has been learned! Keep it up guys. I really want to buy a new card just to try the newest additions to the mods.


----------



## Vandal

Wow! Why didn't I read this before buying my 0404??? I am definitely going to try this on my X-Fi platinum especially since its not under warranty anymore!


----------



## gates_2

edit- fixed my problem


----------



## Vandal

Blackgate's are no longer in production according to percyaudio. Are there any alternatives? Can someone provide a link to an alternative?


----------



## Chaoticon

I just soldered on the new LM4562 and when I put it back into my computer I had no sound at all. From what I can see there is no excess solder and none of the leads are touching. Is there anything I can test or do? I used a multimeter to test for resistance between each leg and the pci connector.


----------



## twc5964

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Vandal* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Blackgate's are no longer in production according to percyaudio. Are there any alternatives? Can someone provide a link to an alternative?_

 


 Rubycon za/zl series are good caps as a substitute.


----------



## Acoustic Chef

Whoops wrong thread.


----------



## Slaughter

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Vandal* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Blackgate's are no longer in production according to percyaudio. Are there any alternatives? Can someone provide a link to an alternative?_

 

Panasonic FM series are almost the standard for power caps in DIY amp building. Cheap, easy to find and sound good.


----------



## borgsm1

I was trying to read every post but I was not able to come to a conclusion on whether to short or decouple the caps (not really sure if I am using the correct terminology).
 I do not really have any background in electronics but the idea of modifying my x-fi to greatness really sounds good to me.
 I can not remember if it was bichi that posted that exchanging this with 33µF 16V caps instead of shorting the four would be almost as good as shorting.
 I also read the forum from overclock.net and soloz2 also votes to exhcange the caps with a better replacement as an alternative to shorting. And in turn help do without the dc offset, which might endanger the audio equipment.
 I do understand that if I'm after great SQ it should be shorted but I would want my equipment safe.

 The capacitors soloz2 used, in one of the mods he made for someone else, are 22µF but they are 25V which is far from the original voltage of the caps to be replaced.

 I'm planning to use those Nichicon KG

 My questions are:

 What is the diameter of the caps he used wherein he (Soloz2) said its a tight fit (but nonetheless a good fit IMO) when he replaced all 16 caps?

 Which is better, as a replacement for the 16 caps a 33µF 16V or a 22µF 25V, in sound quality and would not increase the DC offset (bias <--not really sure which is which offset or bias)?

 When you have someone in Japan to buy good capacitors for you which would be best suited for this mod? I am considering nichicon KG and am eyeing the 33µF 16V for the 16 coupling caps. The reason I want my friend to buy it when she visits there is because I don't trust the electronic part stores here in the Philippines, there's so much counterfeit stuff, I might pay a premium and still get a crappy part. What was funny was there are Rubycons displayed and another that's named Robicon a rather devious ploy for those who were told by word of mouth that Rubycon is the best then they would buy Robicon and mistake it for the other. I still don't trust the Rubycons that are displayed though.

 PS
 Soloz2 and Bichi
 I need your help fast she'll be leaving at the 13th I need to instruct her and research the parts needed before I send her to buy me some of those great stuff.


----------



## ColonD

Thanks a lot for this cotdt and everyone who helped contribute. I modded my X-Fi Platinum Fatality with the 2200uF blackgate and the 4562. Even slapped the ERS paper on the back of the card. I'll have to say, the ERS paper did solve this problem I was getting in regards to noise. I guess it was because I have an 8800GTS sitting right above it just throwing interference at it. With the ERS paper there is ZERO noise like I was getting before intermittently. And I agree that it is a slightly warmer sound. I did this mod seperately before I had the parts soldered on.

 With the 4562 and Blackgate I think the sound is more crisp and seems to have a smooth flow. Fatigue on the ears seems to be much less. All in all I'm very impressed with how much this card has improved. 

 FYI I am using this with a MisterX XP amp to a pair of DT770-80s. Beautiful setup to say the least.


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *borgsm1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 1) "...I can not remember if it was bichi that posted that exchanging this with 33µF 16V caps instead of shorting the four would be almost as good as shorting...."

 My questions are:
 2) What is the diameter of the caps he used wherein he (Soloz2) said its a tight fit (but nonetheless a good fit IMO) when he replaced all 16 caps?

 3) Which is better, as a replacement for the 16 caps a 33µF 16V or a 22µF 25V, in sound quality and would not increase the DC offset (bias <--not really sure which is which offset or bias)?

 4) When you have someone in Japan to buy good capacitors for you which would be best suited for this mod? I am considering nichicon KG and am eyeing the 33µF 16V for the 16 coupling caps. The reason I want my friend to buy it when she visits there is because I don't trust the electronic part stores here in the Philippines, there's so much counterfeit stuff, I might pay a premium and still get a crappy part. What was funny was there are Rubycons displayed and another that's named Robicon a rather devious ploy for those who were told by word of mouth that Rubycon is the best then they would buy Robicon and mistake it for the other. I still don't trust the Rubycons that are displayed though.

 PS
 Soloz2 and Bichi
 I need your help fast she'll be leaving at the 13th I need to instruct her and research the parts needed before I send her to buy me some of those great stuff._

 

**************

 I assume you have a SB0460 (X-FI, Music, Fatality, etc.) and not a SB0550. (Elite Pro)
 Have not included specialty caps, Blackgate, Muse, Prizm, etc., since I don't have direct experience with those brands. 

 1) Right, not the same as shorting, but closer. Arrived at 33uf value from experimentation and tests. You can see small RMAA deviations, but nothing thats "WOWIE!.." See pic link: 
X-FI-MOD-073b - eSnips, share anything

 2) You can see from pictures, Panasonic 33uf SMT parts I used are "tight" and would not fit if mounted directly. Since I socketed, I could offset centers via carriers. Guessing 5mm diameter parts would be the "max" for direct installation. 

 Original: Jamicon SS, 22uf @ 16vdc (4.2mm d)
 Replacement: Panasonic S, SMT, 33uf @ 16vdc (6.3mm d)

 Reference Pictures:
X-FI-MOD-055b - eSnips, share anything
X-FI-MOD-058b - eSnips, share anything

 Panasonic S, SMT Datasheet:
http://industrial.panasonic.com/www-...ABA0000CE2.pdf

 3) Generally, capacitor higher voltage ratings are of no consequence, except larger physical size. Some with "very high-end" playback and sources claim better sound characteristics due to size, which is related to ESR/DF and size, and has been argued both ways. (note: never _exceed_ capacitor ratings, however. (example: never install a 6.3vdc rated capacitor in a 12vdc circuit) 

 4) Not sure what your question is, but a "final" optimized part recommendation is tough and highly subjective. Depends on your listening tastes and playback system. Be aware, even quality electrolytics each have their own distinct "sound signature."

 Some claim bi-polar coupling caps are good:
http://industrial.panasonic.com/www-...BA0000CE97.pdf 

 You might consider replacing power cap C16 with a Panasonic FM or FC, 220uf @ 25vdc, shown in link below. Some claim Panasonic FC's sound too sharp. Power cap C177 (filter for CA20K1) has less sound quality influence.
X-FI-MOD-029b - eSnips, share anything

 Note ultra-low ESR caps (ie., OSCON) for C177 may cause ringing in local switching regulator for CA20K1. 
X-FI-MOD-064b - eSnips, share anything

 Panasonic FC and FM datasheets for part numbers:
http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/...eeu_fc_dne.pdf
http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/...A0000CE108.pdf

 Good Luck!

 (link to X-FI mod details in sig below)


----------



## borgsm1

Bichi,
 Thank you so much for your reply
 I suspect that the choice for capacitors will be subjective. I had no prior experience to any of them so would have to trust the opinions those who have had many years spent in listening to the subtle differences in the sound of capacitors.
 I would also believe that by replacing the Jamicon, which the general consensus regards as low quality, with a better nichicon caps would be a step up.
 I would rather not go with your choice of smt parts because I fear it would be to hard for me of a modification. I am going 33µF 16V Nichicon FG the coupling caps would be considering other capacitors even panasonic fm if she could not find any nichicon FG because I think my friend, who would go to Japan, would have hard time finding anything there.
 Thanks for the c16 modification
 It might be my lack of experience but I find with my koss spark plug that the original sound of x-fi was kind of dull, and find that the onboard sound of the asus p4p800 more lively. Actually when I plug my koss spark plug in my phone an a780 i find it better than the sound of my x-fi. When I heard my x-fi it was using the driver that came with it. I am using Windows XP SP2 then at work. I haven't tried it again with the plug because I lost it. I now have my x-fi stashed with my other stuff, would use it again after the mods.
 Thank you for everyones contribution.
 I love the discussion.


----------



## mdm510

Is their a way I can send my X-Fi Platinum to a guy who already has the parts because I cant really do this myself LOL. That'd be so awesome!


----------



## legcramp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mdm510* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is their a way I can send my X-Fi Platinum to a guy who already has the parts because I cant really do this myself LOL. That'd be so awesome!_

 

Same here, but I am going to attempt this by myself. $20 goes to the guy who does this for me, I'll cover ship both ways!


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *borgsm1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Bichi,

 1) "...Jamicon, which the general consensus regards as low quality..."

 2) "...I would rather not go with your choice of smt parts because I fear it would be to hard for me..."

 3) "...but I find with my koss spark plug that the original sound of x-fi was kind of dull..."_

 

1) Have not found Jamicon, G-Luxon or WinCap, installed on X-FI series, to be "technically" that bad. About 100 caps replaced on X-FI SB0460 / SB0550, found one Jamicon SS, 47uf @ 16vdc, to be out of spec. Value, ESR/ESL and DF generally measured in "very good" category.

 2) Not recommending SMT parts I used, but the value, 33uf and its 6.3mm diameter size, used as an example.

 3) Might be a good idea to run some RMAA tests, for an objective "baseline" to compare stock vs. mods. Would be cool if you posted "pre-mod and post-mod" RMAA tests... 

 RMAA v6.0.6:
Latest News. Audio Rightmark

 ***************

 For the others considering Nichicon AUDIO series:

 KZ Premium Grade Type, MUSE, For Audio Equipment –40 to +85
http://www.nichicon.co.jp/english/products/pdf/e-kz.pdf

 FG High Grade Type, For Audio Equipment–40 to +85
http://www.nichicon.co.jp/english/products/pdf/e-fg.pdf

 KW Standard, For Audio Equipment –40 to +85
http://www.nichicon.co.jp/english/products/pdf/e-kw.pdf

 MW 5mmL, For General Audio Equipment –40 to +85
http://www.nichicon.co.jp/english/products/pdf/e-mw.pdf


 105 SERIES:

 KT 105°C Standard, For Audio Equipment –55 to +105
http://www.nichicon.co.jp/english/products/pdf/e-kt.pdf

 UQ 105°C Chip Type, For Audio Equipment –40 to +105
http://www.nichicon.co.jp/english/products/pdf/e-uq.pdf


----------



## djbigbear

anyone encounter this error before:

 after doing the whole mod, my PC won't recognize X-Fi, tried on other PC too, same problem.
 tried reseating, changin PCI slots, cleaning the gold fins, searching new device at device manager, and still the same problem.

 it's Xtreme Gamer Fatal1ty.
 the only difference in mod parts is the supply caps, i used BG STD 3300uF 16v.


----------



## catx

Hi all, in the last few days my unmodedd X-fi extreme music began sounding a little strange, so I did some testing with RMAA.

 Here is the result






 I suppose it is caused by a leaking coupling cap (I also get 180mV DC on right channel and 30mV on left channel).

 I can easily get Panasonic FC caps, do you think they are a good replacement?

 Thanks for your help


----------



## borgsm1

Sorry not regarded as low quality but was prone to leak I misread the first post. I have misconceived it as low quality.

 I have an Xtreme music by the way. I forgot to post it.

 When I get everything I would measure my x-fi using the RMAA and will install latest drivers on fresh windows xp sp2 installs with latest hotfixes. and will try it again after the mods.

 It's sad that they did the power connector only for the i/o module if it was otherwise it would have helped in the proper power supply for the opamps and may have given the users better sound.


----------



## boogerlad

so for the powerfilter area on the x-fi, we replace it with a 1000uf or more 16 volt blackgate. right? however, i read that the solid conductive polymer capacitors have lower esr and they are more capacitive. wouldn't having a big blackgate for filtering, the analog section, we use standard blackgates and the digital section, we use the conductive polymer ones? what are the most important specs that one needs to know when comparing capacitors for sound cards? the sanyo oscons are conductive polymer and seems interesting. Also, i read somewhere in this thread that the nonpolar version of caps perform better, but take longer to burn in. is this true?


----------



## legcramp

woot, after about an hour of being frustrated because the AD8599 kept moving because it was so small and putting on way too much solder, booted up the computer for the second time and bam there's sound. 

 First thing I noticed was way better mids and more soundstage.


 WOW, listening to No Roads Left - Linkin Park Instruments and details I seriously never heard before and the clarity.... Best $20 ever spent on materials to get that opamp in. Now I won't need to get that Zero amp anymore.


----------



## Maniac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *aZn_plyR* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_woot, after about an hour of being frustrated because the AD8599 kept moving because it was so small and putting on way too much solder, booted up the computer for the second time and bam there's sound. _

 

One trick is to use paper based masking tape to fix it in place. Paper is surprising resilient against heat, even blowing it with 450C + air (Eutectic 63/37 solder melts at less than 180C), it can still hold for a while without getting completely burnt into ash.

 Not to mention burning paper smells about a million times better than burning plastic.


----------



## KarateKid

I have the Prelude. I love the way it sounds. Is there even a need for me to look for a DAC? It seems from what I've read that an XFi with the right components will even beat the likes of DAC1 and Apogee Mini-DAC (which costs quite a bit).


----------



## trikosuave

Could someone do me a favor.... I am trying to buy all the parts from digikey. I know you cannot get the blackgate there. Could I get a list of all the parts (numbers would be awesome) for the power cap, the options for opamps, and the 16 coupling caps I would need for 5.1/7.1 all around mod?

 Thank you!


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *KarateKid* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have the Prelude. I love the way it sounds. Is there even a need for me to look for a DAC? It seems from what I've read that an XFi with the right components will even beat the likes of DAC1 and Apogee Mini-DAC (which costs quite a bit)._

 

The Prelude uses high end DAC's and can take on and beat many devices for it's DAC quality. If you want to improve th sound of the prelude more get some new opamps such as OPA627's etc.


----------



## catx

I have finally replaced the stock coupling capacitors with 33uF Panasonic FCs and the power filter cap with a 1500uF Rubycon MBZ. The sound improvement is huge (power filter cap made only a little difference anyway) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 RMAA results for the capacitors mod:





 All the testings were done on lineout 2 because lineout 1 is still ko. I thought the problem was caused by a bad coupling cap, but it is not the case. I will replace the opamp as I get some 4562 to see if it fixes the problem.

 Any hint about fixing my front channel will be appreciated! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 RMAA results for lineout1


----------



## KarateKid

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The Prelude uses high end DAC's and can take on and beat many devices for it's DAC quality. If you want to improve th sound of the prelude more get some new opamps such as OPA627's etc._

 

But what DACs can beat the Prelude, if any? Is this a question of price range or does the Prelude at the end of the day even beat out something like a DAC1 or a Apogee Mini-DAC, which all cost 4x the price of the soundcard?


----------



## KarateKid

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The Prelude uses high end DAC's and can take on and beat many devices for it's DAC quality. If you want to improve th sound of the prelude more get some new opamps such as OPA627's etc._

 

I also have no technical experience with electronics, I would not be able to solder on new opamps, unfortunately.


----------



## trikosuave

Bichi:

 I noticed you have done a lot of testing on the thread and you have replaced more than the opamps, main power cap, and coupling caps. I was wondering you could take a look at what I have and suggest any other caps I should have changed as well.

 opamps (x4): LM4562MA-ND (digikey)
 Power Cap: Panny CAP 2200UF 16V ELECT FC RADIAL
 Coupling Caps (x16): Panny CAP 33UF 35V ELECT FC RADIAL

 I have the X-Fi out using Creative's Home Theater cable (analog) going to my Onkyo SR875 outputting to my Paradigm Monitors 5.1 (very nice 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) From what I have read I might be able to get better output from my PS3 hdmi for dvd-a/SACD output, but i felt like modding something. Anything else you, or anyone for that matter, would suggest differently or in addition to?

 Thanks!


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *catx* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_"...replaced the stock coupling capacitors with 33uF Panasonic FCs and the power filter cap with a 1500uF Rubycon MBZ. The sound improvement is huge (power filter cap made only a little difference anyway) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Any hint about fixing my front channel will be appreciated! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

*catx:*
 - now thats the way to do mods!
 - with detailed RMAA results showing 33uf coupling cap changes.
 - correct, not much sound quality improvement with filter cap C177, (for SB0460) as shown in your tests.

 Have no advice on your LineOutFR 1, right channel problem, but hopefully, its an opamp problem. (assuming no driver corruption)


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *trikosuave* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Bichi: I noticed you have done a lot of testing on the thread and you have replaced more than the opamps, main power cap, and coupling caps. I was wondering you could take a look at what I have and suggest any other caps I should have changed as well.
 "...Anything else you, or anyone for that matter, would suggest differently or in addition to?..."
 Thanks!_

 

*trikosuave,*
 - Depends on which X-FI model you have: SB0460 (Music, Fatality) or SB0550 (Elite, Pro)
 - Don't expect much sound quality improvement, changing filter cap C177 (SB0460) / C161 (SB0550) for CA20K1 DSP.
 (see *Catx's* excellent post and comment on C177 filter cap: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/3694789-post1467.html) 
 - For basic changes, see below, per model number:
 - for more detailed changes, see: X-FI Op Amp and Cap Modification eSnips Folder

*SB0460:* (Music, Fatality)
 a) coupling caps, (Front: C23, C50, C76, C77)
 b) C46 +5vdc supply to opamps: Panasonic FM or FC, 330uf @ 16 or 25vdc
 c) C72 -5vdc supply to opamps: Panasonic FM or FC, 68uf @ 16 or 25vdc

 SB0460 Part Location Reference Only:
X-FI-MOD-070b - eSnips, share anything

*SB0550:* (Elite, Pro)
 a) coupling caps, (Front: C45, C58, C35, C49)
 b) C104, C133 +/-12vdc supply to opamps: Panasonic FM or FC, 330uf @ 16 or 25vdc
 c) C55 +5vdc Va supply to DACs: Panasonic FM or FC, 68uf @ 16 or 25vdc
 d) C6 +5vdc Va to AK5394 ADC: Kemet 22uf TANT @ 25vdc

 SB0550 Part Location Reference Only:
X-FI-MOD-084b - eSnips, share anything


----------



## catx

After discovering that my lineout1 opamp wasn't causing the problem on my front right channel it turned out that one of the muting transistor was dead. I didn't had the necessary part for replacement, so I simply bypassed both muting circuits.
 The result is amazing, according to RMAA THD is now 0.0011% at 24bit 48KHz. The only problem is the crackling sound i get when I turn off my pc.

 I wil post some pics and RMAA images as soon as I have time


----------



## jerrygp

I am finished with the mods to my xtreme music card and it's probably been mentioned in theis forum before but I can't find it - what are you folks using as an insulating layer between the ers paper and the back of the card and how do you attach both to the soundcard? I didn't buy the adhesive backed paper. Any help would be appreciated...


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *KarateKid* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I also have no technical experience with electronics, I would not be able to solder on new opamps, unfortunately._

 

You don't have to solder on new opamps the front channels have a socket so you can try out other opamps if you want. The LM4562NA opamp used in the Prelude is the one quite a few guys are using on their CL X-fi's as part of the mod in these threads. I have been testing out some new ones...


----------



## edba2000

After so many posts and tests, is there any list of the mods for the best sound quality found? (what opamps and what caps)

 thanks


----------



## Maniac

Everyone's idea of best is quite different, you might be surprised what everyone considered as best.


----------



## s1rrah

Howdy.

 I've just received a handful of OPAMPS from National Semi conductor but upon inspecting my Elite Pro, I find that the OPAMP layout is slightly different than the OP's first page photos illustrate.

 Does somebody have a diagram of the Elite Pro's OPAMP layout so I can be sure I'm snipping and soldering in the right places?

 Thanks for any assist ...


----------



## Apocalypsee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *s1rrah* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Howdy.

 I've just received a handful of OPAMPS from National Semi conductor but upon inspecting my Elite Pro, I find that the OPAMP layout is slightly different than the OP's first page photos illustrate.

 Does somebody have a diagram of the Elite Pro's OPAMP layout so I can be sure I'm snipping and soldering in the right places?

 Thanks for any assist ..._

 

You need to dig up this thread. But I point you to right direction, since it will take time
Here and here

 It looks the same, the lettering is the same so the orientation is the same too. Hope that helps


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *s1rrah* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_"...Does somebody have a diagram of the Elite Pro's OPAMP layout so I can be sure I'm snipping and soldering in the right places? Thanks for any assist ..."_

 

SB0550 Elite picture with part IDs:
X-FI-MOD-084b - eSnips, share anything

 Text file descriptions/annotations for above:
X-FI-MOD-085b - eSnips, share anything

 Close up of SB0550 Elite Line-Out front-channel opamp U7 location: (socketed, but good close-up)
X-FI-MOD-092b - eSnips, share anything


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bichi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_SB0550 Elite picture with part IDs:
X-FI-MOD-084b - eSnips, share anything

 Text file descriptions/annotations for above:
X-FI-MOD-085b - eSnips, share anything

 Close up of SB0550 Elite Line-Out front-channel opamp U7 location: (socketed, but good close-up)
X-FI-MOD-092b - eSnips, share anything_

 

PERFECT!! Thanks.

 BTW ... that socketed OPAMP on the main L/R out ... I'm assuming this lets a user easily pop in a variety of OPAMPS ... so where would I find that particular socket if I wanted to solder that on instead of a fixed OPAMP?

 Thanks again for any info ...


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *s1rrah* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_PERFECT!! Thanks.
 BTW ... that socketed OPAMP on the main L/R out ... I'm assuming this lets a user easily pop in a variety of OPAMPS ... so where would I find that particular socket if I wanted to solder that on instead of a fixed OPAMP? Thanks again for any info ..._

 

SOIC Socket Hack with part details:
X-FI-MOD-032b - eSnips, share anything

 SOIC Socket carrier:
X-FI-MOD-033b - eSnips, share anything

 Also socketed key coupling capacitor locations for easy experimentation...

 Might want to scroll thru X-FI mod pictures with notes. Covers both SB0460 (Music, Fatality, etc.) and SB0550 (Elite).
 SB0550 stuff begins at panel 16, picture "X-FI-MOD-084b."
X-FI Op Amp and Cap Modification eSnips Folder

 EDIT:
 past post with additional socket details:
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/3266394-post1286.html


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bichi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_SOIC Socket Hack with part details:
X-FI-MOD-032b - eSnips, share anything

 SOIC Socket carrier:
X-FI-MOD-033b - eSnips, share anything

 Also socketed key coupling capacitor locations for easy experimentation...

 Might want to scroll thru X-FI mod pictures with notes. Covers both SB0460 (Music, Fatality, etc.) and SB0550 (Elite).
 SB0550 stuff begins at panel 16, picture "X-FI-MOD-084b."
X-FI Op Amp and Cap Modification eSnips Folder

 EDIT:
 past post with additional socket details:
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/3266394-post1286.html_

 

@Bichi: 

 You know ... I bought a soldering iron today and started testing the removal process on some OPAMPS on an old SB Live 5.1 card I have ... and for the life of me, after I heated up the existing stock solder on the Live's OPAMPS, I couldn't get the dang legs to seperate from the board!

 Do you have any suggestions?

 Also ... even better ... do you do mods for folks? If so, please email me at leojharris ->AT<- gmail ->dot<-- com to let me know. I would like to have a socketed front L/F OPAMP and that's about it (unless you can suggest something that truly improves sound, in which case I'd be interested in rates for that as well).

*What I'm trying to beat:*

 I've spent 180 dollars on an EMU 0404 USB, simply to run a line-out from it to my Practical Devices XM4 amp.

 I originally did this with the expectation of taking it back (and I still have a 15 day window) but unfortunately ... the sound running line-out of the 0404 and to my amp, sounds WAY WAY better than running line-out of my Elite Pro (Front L/R channel) to the same amp.

 This is through both my Shure SE530's and my Grado RS1's, both sound way better line out from the EMU to my amp; no comparison: 

*Out from 0404 line-out to amp:* clean, great separation, great soundstage and bass - 

*Out from Elite Pro line out (Front L/R) to amp:* Diminished soundstage, overall bland sound across all freq's, and bass that's just not nearly as taut or deep as the EMU 0404.

 I hate this as the X-fi Elite Pro cost me a whopping 250 dollars ... but the proof is in the ears, so to speak. Line out from the back of the EMU (not the headphone out, mind you) sounds quite a bit better than line-out from the X-fi Elite Pros front L/R miniplug.

 So if you care to take on some side work, please email me at the above address.

 (BTW ... the same request is made to any others here who might like to do some side mod work for $$ ... feel free to email me)

 Thanks again for the kick arse photos ...


----------



## legcramp

radioshack or fry's has those mini cutter, I used these to chop off the legs of the original opamp.

 Also, do you have the option to use the line out from the back of the elite pro instead of the front one?


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *aZn_plyR* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_radioshack or fry's has those mini cutter, I used these to chop off the legs of the original opamp.

 Also, do you have the option to use the line out from the back of the elite pro instead of the front one?_

 

I *am* actually using the line-out from the card itself; I'm running out from the green, front L/R channel. 

 I sold the breakout box a while back due to it's inferior OPAMPS and DAC (though I am missing the phono preamp!).


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *s1rrah* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_@Bichi: 
 You know ... I bought a soldering iron today and started testing the removal process on some OPAMPS on an old SB Live 5.1 card I have ... and for the life of me, after I heated up the existing stock solder on the Live's OPAMPS, I couldn't get the dang legs to seperate from the board! Do you have any suggestions?_

 

See the first few pictures/description for desoldering opamps: (for SB0460, but same technique used, generally)
 - beginner solderer, eh? *DO NOT PULL or TWIST on opamp leads!* Pads/traces rip away easily!
X-FI Op Amp and Cap Modification eSnips Folder

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *s1rrah* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Bichi: 
 Also ... even better ... do you do mods for folks?_

 

No, I don't, not enough time, unpredictable schedule and price would be high to make it worth my time.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *s1rrah* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*Out from Elite Pro line out (Front L/R) to amp:* Diminished soundstage, overall bland sound across all freq's, and bass that's just not nearly as taut or deep as the EMU 0404.




_

 

Can't comment on EMU 0404 vs. X-FI Elite since I have no direct 0404 experience.
 - based on objective RMAA and pinknoise analysis X-FI tests, its fairly flat. (flat from a test perspective)
 - SB0550 driver = v5.12.6.1187; all effects off, bitmatched set.

 Assuming your X-FI is not defective and not knowing your subjective listening tastes:
 - entertainment mode, as opposed to audio creation mode?
 - enable X-FI EAX and X-FI Crystalizer effects? 
 - use front Line-Out from card, as opposed to external box? 
 - do RMAA tests on your EMU 0404 to see if it's freq spectra rises at low and high ends?
 - might be an X-FI output impedance/level or Practical Devices XM4 input impedance mismatch?

 If you willing to risk keeping your X-FI, might try:
 - increasing front Line-Out capacitor values (C45, C35, C58, C49) to 68uf:
 - Panasonic FM 68uf @ 16vdc: Digikey PN: P12921-ND
 - changing +/- 12vdc filter caps (C104, C133) to:
 - Panasonic FM 330uf @ 25vdc: Digikey PN: P12387-ND
 - simple, easy and reversible (provided original caps are carefully removed) tests to do than opamp swap.


----------



## legcramp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *s1rrah* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I *am* actually using the line-out from the card itself; I'm running out from the green, front L/R channel. 

 I sold the breakout box a while back due to it's inferior OPAMPS and DAC (though I am missing the phono preamp!). 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Have you tried the digital/line out from the card itself instead of from the Front ( L/R) ?


----------



## sbela

I made these modifications too, and it sounds sweeeeeeet


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *aZn_plyR* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Have you tried the digital/line out from the card itself instead of from the Front ( L/R) ?_

 

I can't find a cable local that will work with the digital out. And besides, I would have to run into a DAC for that to work, right?

 ...

 Otherwise ...

 You guys must have mad soldering skills because I tore the hell out of an old SB Live card (test card) trying to get one of the original OPAMPS off ... never could get it free of the card.

 Anyway ... I'm not *touching* my X-fi and will wait till I can find someone to do the mod for me.


----------



## PianistOne111

Hey. Great mod. I have an OEM SB0460 and I changed the Line-Out opamp to AD8599 yesterday. At first there was a lot of noise and distortion, so I thought I screwed something up, but after a few hours it cleared up and it sounds really nice. I've got some capacitors on the way; I'll let you know how it goes.


----------



## trodas

Guys, before I do the opamp change on my X-Fi, I decided to try it on something less valuable. And I picked my Audigy (1) soundcard. And quess what. There are 4 pcs of the very same opamps, the 4558C - but there is also one piece of the 33078 ST opamp too. Probably for imput or what? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Nevermind. But I do wonder, since the pinouts are the very same:
MC4558CD datasheet pdf datenblatt - STMicroelectronics - WIDE BANDWIDTH DUAL BIPOLAR OPERATIONAL AMPLIFIERS ::: ALLDATASHEET :::
33078 datasheet pdf datenblatt - STMicroelectronics - LOW NOISE DUAL OPERATIONAL AMPLIFIERS ::: ALLDATASHEET :::
 ...if I can replace all 5 of them on the Audigy (1) and if the card still going to work after 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I think it will, but I better ask if someone has experiences with this


----------



## powertoold

Hey guys,

 Thank you all for your help in doing this mod.

 I have a question:

 I destroyed some pads on my headphone opamp section, so I routed all the input (5,6 and 2,3) and power leads (4,8) to another opamp (the surround one). Everything works fine, except even at max volume, the volume is very low. Does anyone know what is wrong or where I can get more power on the board?

 Thanks,


----------



## catx

Here is the report for my lineout1 repair and lineout2 compare with almost all the other capacitors replaced (I still have to find appropriate parts for -5v and +5v voltage regulators filter caps)

 RMAA Results for Lineout 2:






 Old OPAMP removed:







 The faulty muting transistor:







 Detailed view of muting bypass:







 General view of the card:








 Lineout 1 RMAA results:






 RMAA results for lineout 1 are a little strange, but the cause could be some passive component of the differential circuit going out of spec.
 Anyway the new OPAMP sounds a lot better than 4556 when driving my HD555 headphones.

 As you can see for Lineout 2 there is no audible effect when replacing the stock decoupling caps, but I think some little improvement can still be obtained by replacing +-5v rails filter caps.


----------



## strawsbery

After reading the entire thread a month ago I have finally completed the mod. I want to thank cotdt and all of the others who contributed in discussion for making this one of the easiest hardmods I have ever done. 
 LM4562 in action 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	








 Old cap compared to the Panasonic FC





 New cap in place





 I did the mod on a sb0670 (the HP oem version of the x-fi music) Which works with the SB summer beta drivers.
 The dynamic range has been greatly increased and everything seems much cooler and crisper.

 If anyone is interested in the card please pm me.

 Thanks again for this awesome mod!


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *catx* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_"...RMAA results for lineout 1 are a little strange, but the cause could be some passive component of the differential circuit going out of spec..."



_

 

Catx,
 - very nice!

 If you mean the difference between RMAA Left/Right channel levels, it might be one of the Line-IN coupling caps has drifted out of spec.
 - since RMAA is in loop-back mode, Line-IN is in test path.
 - quick test is to use AUX-IN, instead of Line-IN.

 Line-In jack -> C49, C48 = Line-In coupling caps -> WM8775 ADC
 AUX IN -> C102, C104 = AUX-IN coupling caps -> WM8775 ADC

 Part Location/ID Pic:
X-FI-MOD-070b - eSnips, share anything

 AUX-IN Pinout:


----------



## trodas

I just replaced the there output opamps from the old useless (they was used even in Audigy (1) !!!) MC4558C ( MC4558CD datasheet pdf datenblatt - STMicroelectronics - WIDE BANDWIDTH DUAL BIPOLAR OPERATIONAL AMPLIFIERS ::: ALLDATASHEET ::: ) to the praised LM4562 ( LM4562 datasheet pdf datenblatt - National Semiconductor - Dual High Performance, High Fidelity Audio Operational Amplifier ::: ALLDATASHEET ::: ) opamps. It was kinda easy, however the changes are minimal. You cannot hear any difference in mp3 bellow 320kBi, that is for sure. When we talking about DTS 768kBi, well, ten there finally is some difference 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But not so major. It is obvious that complete recap of the Jamicon crap caps has to be done as well, as the audiojacks has to be gold-plated for the subwoofer connection, the whole subwoofer has to be recapped and possibly modified also, so there is a notable difference.

 It is worth to replace the another 3 opamps? Eg. I replaced only the there in row... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 And anyone know, witch caps do filter voltage and are NOT audio caps?


----------



## michell

hi,
 first im soory if my english is not so good ,
 anyway this therd is amazing and convince me to make the mod to my X-FI platinum.

 the only thing that prevent me to do so, is the lack of "spacial" components in my country (or that i dont know where to look
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ) ,
 like the cap and the opamp...
 i did found some cap that look ok but i want to be sure its a 2200uF/16v from comany that called "ADE" how is this cap compare to the blackgate ?

 about the opamp there is a place in the web that make over-sea shiping ?

 thx, keep up the good work


----------



## Chipp

Looking on National Semiconductor's site, the distributor I found for Israel was Easttronics.


----------



## s1rrah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *michell* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_hi,
 first im soory if my english is not so good ,
 anyway this therd is amazing and convince me to make the mod to my X-FI platinum.

 the only thing that prevent me to do so, is the lack of "spacial" components in my country (or that i dont know where to look
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ) ,
 like the cap and the opamp...
 i did found some cap that look ok but i want to be sure its a 2200uF/16v from comany that called "ADE" how is this cap compare to the blackgate ?

 about the opamp there is a place in the web that make over-sea shiping ?

 thx, keep up the good work_

 


 Have you tried ordering samples direct from National Semiconductor (www.national.com)?

 You can only order 3 samples at a time but in total, over the past four months or so, I've received 12 OPAMPS from them for free.

 I'm currently burning in an LM4562 (MDIP socketed) in my Practical Devices XM4. Just got three in the mail today (gonna give away the other two to random XM4/XM5 owners in a bit.

 Man! Did that thing ever sound grainy and rough when I first fired it up! Is that normal for the LM4562? I mean .. it was HARSH.

 Anyway ... two hours playing and it's smoothing out unbelievably. 

 To early to comment on whether it has improved my amp or not ... but will do some A/B listens against a couple other fully burned OPAMPS this weekend.

 ...


----------



## michell

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Chipp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Looking on National Semiconductor's site, the distributor I found for Israel was Easttronics._

 

oh this is wonderful,
 eastronics is the distributor of intel in israel and im working wite them alot (im work in a comuter company) so i hope they got the opamp in stoc cuse it will take alot of time to order sampels from NS


  Quote:


 Have you tried ordering samples direct from National Semiconductor (www.national.com)?

 You can only order 3 samples at a time but in total, over the past four months or so, I've received 12 OPAMPS from them for free.

 I'm currently burning in an LM4562 (MDIP socketed) in my Practical Devices XM4. Just got three in the mail today (gonna give away the other two to random XM4/XM5 owners in a bit.

 Man! Did that thing ever sound grainy and rough when I first fired it up! Is that normal for the LM4562? I mean .. it was HARSH.

 Anyway ... two hours playing and it's smoothing out unbelievably. 

 To early to comment on whether it has improved my amp or not ... but will do some A/B listens against a couple other fully burned OPAMPS this weekend. 
 

i tried to order from NS and i can order 5 sampels at ones so if the distributor of NS in israel dont have the opamp in stoc i will order them from SM.
 about the burning in.... i belive after a good burn in will soind amazing 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 by the whey can someone write me a good online store to order the BlackGate from?

 realy thx you all


----------



## trodas

Black Gate Audio Capacitors
http://www.partsconnexion.com/catalo...ctrolytic.html


----------



## unknown123

Well me being the rookie who thinks he can do anything, went and cut off the old opamp, and everything was actually going well until I noticed one of the areas that you solder the pins of the opamp to fell off (while removing the old one), and the solder wont hold to that area. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 Well I finished soldering everything else up and tried it out and amazement, I have sound!....but only in the left side...the right is nice and quiet, so I'm screwed right? I've convinced myself to have the "live and learn" mentality, but its still frustrating. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 If anyone has a suggestion I'm open for it


----------



## michell

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *trodas* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Black Gate Audio Capacitors
http://www.partsconnexion.com/catalo...ctrolytic.html_

 


 thanks its realy help me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





 by the way,
 there is a better cap that i shold be order insted of the basic series of the black gate ?
 or there is no noticeable difference?


----------



## trodas

*unknown123* - mate, I got 26 years of soldering experience. Quess what was the first thing I did? I practice exchanging opamp on old Audigy (1) card. If you did not use extremly sharp micro cutter and if you move it just a little bit while cutting - say good-bye to the X-Fi.
 Unless you manage to connect the pad to the rest of the card again. It is not impossible, unless it go straight down into layer-connecting hole, I did worser repairs, but like I say, I solder actively for 26 years now, soon 27...
 "Rookie who thinks he can do anything" probably end up buying a new X-Fi card.


*michell* - Different caps are there for different purposes. Use audio grade caps (like Black Gate or Elna RSF) where is audio going and use low-ESR caps where is voltage filering going on (Samxon, Rubycon, Nichicon, Panasonic).

 I think it will be quite unpopular in this thread, but using a known good audio cap for voltage filtering (eg. instead of C177 - a stock 220uF 16V Jamicon) for the main X-Fi chip, where the audio is in pure digital form and then claiming that the audio get imporoved, is insane at best.

 It is true, however, that the TPS54352 voltage regulator is not designed to work with very low-ESR cap like Os-con polymers or Samxon GA/GC or Ruby MCZ or Nichicon HZ and such.
http://www.ti.com/lit/gpn/tps54352
 But thazt still does not made change the pure digital state of audio there into analog one, that would benefit from Black Gate cap.

 The audio get converted from digital to analog audio form in DAC, witch is the Cirrus Logic CS4382 thing for the X-Fi Fatal1ty and from there is wise to use audio caps to pass thru the audio, yet still double check for the cap purpose.
http://www.cirrus.com/en/pubs/proDat.../CS4382_F1.pdf

 I mean - Jamicons are
 1) known bad caps that will degenerate over time and even fail miserably
 2) they are NOT audio grade caps, so it is killing your audio too
 3) they are NOT low-ESR caps, good for voltage filering

 Creative use Jamicons everywhere. For a good example, take a look at recommended TPS54352 circuit and notice that on the voltage imput TI recommend at least 100uF low-ESR elyte and at least 10uF ceramic cap soldered as close to the chip, as possible. This Creative did, but the imput elyte is a 22uF only (!!!) Jamicon crap - C172.

 It would be foolish to not improve the capacity to what it should be (at least) and also to use a audio grade cap there. I used a 150uF 6.3V Nichicon HE there. A good cap for this position.

 For the audio passing, well, I would recommend Elna RSF caps. In places where is even need to be a cap. There are many examples that it is not need everywhere...


----------



## michell

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *trodas* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*unknown123* - mate, I got 26 years of soldering experience. Quess what was the first thing I did? I practice exchanging opamp on old Audigy (1) card. If you did not use extremly sharp micro cutter and if you move it just a little bit while cutting - say good-bye to the X-Fi.
 Unless you manage to connect the pad to the rest of the card again. It is not impossible, unless it go straight down into layer-connecting hole, I did worser repairs, but like I say, I solder actively for 26 years now, soon 27...
 "Rookie who thinks he can do anything" probably end up buying a new X-Fi card.


*michell* - Different caps are there for different purposes. Use audio grade caps (like Black Gate or Elna RSF) where is audio going and use low-ESR caps where is voltage filering going on (Samxon, Rubycon, Nichicon, Panasonic).

 I think it will be quite unpopular in this thread, but using a known good audio cap for voltage filtering (eg. instead of C177 - a stock 220uF 16V Jamicon) for the main X-Fi chip, where the audio is in pure digital form and then claiming that the audio get imporoved, is insane at best.

 It is true, however, that the TPS54352 voltage regulator is not designed to work with very low-ESR cap like Os-con polymers or Samxon GA/GC or Ruby MCZ or Nichicon HZ and such.
http://www.ti.com/lit/gpn/tps54352
 But thazt still does not made change the pure digital state of audio there into analog one, that would benefit from Black Gate cap.

 The audio get converted from digital to analog audio form in DAC, witch is the Cirrus Logic CS4382 thing for the X-Fi Fatal1ty and from there is wise to use audio caps to pass thru the audio, yet still double check for the cap purpose.
http://www.cirrus.com/en/pubs/proDat.../CS4382_F1.pdf

 I mean - Jamicons are
 1) known bad caps that will degenerate over time and even fail miserably
 2) they are NOT audio grade caps, so it is killing your audio too
 3) they are NOT low-ESR caps, good for voltage filering

 Creative use Jamicons everywhere. For a good example, take a look at recommended TPS54352 circuit and notice that on the voltage imput TI recommend at least 100uF low-ESR elyte and at least 10uF ceramic cap soldered as close to the chip, as possible. This Creative did, but the imput elyte is a 22uF only (!!!) Jamicon crap - C172.

 It would be foolish to not improve the capacity to what it should be (at least) and also to use a audio grade cap there. I used a 150uF 6.3V Nichicon HE there. A good cap for this position.

 For the audio passing, well, I would recommend Elna RSF caps. In places where is even need to be a cap. There are many examples that it is not need everywhere... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 


 wow thx for the comprehensive answer....
 ok so now im goin to order the blackgate 16v 2200uf and the opamp 4562...
 hope they arrive in this month 

 thank you again for the help


----------



## LORD-eX-Bu

just read all 151 pages, very informative. I am now ready to do this mod... well, once I buy a X-fi


----------



## unknown123

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *trodas* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*unknown123* - mate, I got 26 years of soldering experience. Quess what was the first thing I did? I practice exchanging opamp on old Audigy (1) card. If you did not use extremly sharp micro cutter and if you move it just a little bit while cutting - say good-bye to the X-Fi.
 Unless you manage to connect the pad to the rest of the card again. It is not impossible, unless it go straight down into layer-connecting hole, I did worser repairs, but like I say, I solder actively for 26 years now, soon 27...
 "Rookie who thinks he can do anything" probably end up buying a new X-Fi card._

 

This was the only thing I had to practice on. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Well it just gave me more of a reason to buy some more stuff, and if I ever do get another x-fi im sure I wont make the same mistake.


----------



## trodas

*michell* - well, good luck.


*unknown123* - damn, you did not had one old spare/dead mainboard to try that on first? No friend in driveable distance who might allow you to practice on such board/card? It is hard to believe that. I know, Arizona is big and with few people, but... Well, you know, everyone is general after a battle 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 And in the end, you are right. Creative stuff is not exactly "hot buy" ... It is true, that they made good bang in games, but that it is. Unless you, customer, mod the whole card, you get only mediocre sound (same opamps in X-Fi as in Audigy (1) ...? Come on!) and soon as the Jamicons run out of life, problems and even lockups in sound-intensive games... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 What sound card you planing on buying then?


----------



## unknown123

I actually just ordered a 2move to use as a DAC/amp for my PC, it should also be nice for iPod and laptop use, I have heard nothing but good things about these.


----------



## trodas

Oh, crap! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 After some reading there I just realized why the differences I hear are't nowhere near big, almost impossible. I replaced the there opamps in line, improving my subwoofer/surround, but not the most important Left/Right front channels! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Time to replace the 4th slightly bigger one, lol 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





*cotdt* -  Quote:


 There are probably 20-30 on the board but half of them are coupling capacitors which you want to short anyway. I beleive you short almost a dozen capacitors if you do the surround channels and certain others, so in reality you're only replacing a dozen or so capacitors. 
 

 Quote:


 you want to short the 16 capacitors closest to each of the 4 opamps. 
 

So you guys say to short really all these 16 caps...? I must admit that getting rid of the Jamicon crap sounds very good to me, but such brutal change... Really to do that?

 Then what audio-passing-caps will be there still left, lol...?


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *trodas* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_"...I think it will be quite unpopular in this thread, but using a known good audio cap for voltage filtering (eg. instead of C177 - a stock 220uF 16V Jamicon) for the main X-Fi chip, where the audio is in pure digital form and then claiming that the audio get imporoved, is insane at best..."_

 

old news
 - latest evidence by Catx:
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/3694789-post1467.html

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *trodas* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_"...It is true, however, that the TPS54352 voltage regulator *is not designed to work with very low-ESR* cap like Os-con polymers or Samxon GA/GC or Ruby MCZ or Nichicon HZ and such.
http://www.ti.com/lit/gpn/tps54352
 But thazt still does not made change the pure digital state of audio there into analog one, that would benefit from Black Gate cap..."_

 

Not correct.
 - limitation is the inductor value Creative selected for the stock capacitor type.
 - this applies to both SB0460 (Music, Fatality, etc.) and SB0550 (Elite)

 See original posts on smVreg TPS54352, measurements, which supplies 1.2vdc to CA20K1.
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/3269637-post1295.html
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/3269940-post1296.html


----------



## bichi

SB0460 (X-FI Fatality, Music, etc., variants)
 - Reference Picture with part annotations, as of Oct 10, 2007
 - Part/component description in TXT format 
 - *last update to SB0460*, transitioned to SB0550 Elite

 clipped from TXT description:

_Changes with Greatest audio quality impact:
 - Line-Out coupling capacitors: C23, C50, C76, C77 (Front Line-Out)
 - Power decoupling capacitors: C46, C72
 - Opamps: U2~U5, depending on desired number of channels
 - for recording: C49, C48 
 - all other changes are optional_

 Have fun and good luck!

*SB0550 (Elite)*
 - will be posting latest, updated test results, components, etc, in the next two weeks...

 SB0460 Annotated Parts Reference Picture:
X-FI-MOD-099a - eSnips, share anything

 SB0460 Part/ID/Description for picture above, in TXT format:
X-FI-MOD-099b - eSnips, share anything


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *unknown123* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_"...until I noticed one of the areas that you solder the pins of the opamp to fell off (while removing the old one), and the solder wont hold to that area. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




..." 
 "... so I'm screwed right? I've convinced myself to have the "live and learn" mentality, but its still frustrating. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 If anyone has a suggestion I'm open for it_

 

If you can take a good close-up picture of the damaged area and post, I might be able to suggest a "wire-re-route" fix...

 Close-up quality similar to this, as an example:
X-FI-MOD-092b - eSnips, share anything


----------



## trodas

*bichi* -  Quote:


 *using a known good audio cap for voltage filtering (eg. instead of C177 - a stock 220uF 16V Jamicon) for the main X-Fi chip, where the audio is in pure digital form and then claiming that the audio get imporoved, is insane at best...*

 old news
 - latest evidence by Catx: 
 

Glad you agree with me on this. I have new news anyway. I just tried a Samon RS 3300uF 10V witch SHOULD has the ripple near the TI suggested 1500 - 1700mA, but it turns out to be bugger. The card is not recognized at all, so the voltage regulator shut off.
 So, using Samxon RS 3300uF 10V as C177 = dead X-Fi.

 Replaced with Samxon GC 1000uF 6.3V as C177 = X-Fi is present in my system, BUT NO SOUND, thanks to the stupid idea you guys bang to my head - thanks to removing the 22uF decoupling caps to all the - now LM4562 ones. Great idea!












  Quote:


 It is true, however, that the TPS54352 voltage regulator *is not designed to work with very low-ESR cap* like Os-con polymers or Samxon GA/GC or Ruby MCZ or Nichicon HZ and such.
http://www.ti.com/lit/gpn/tps54352
 But thazt still does not made change the pure digital state of audio there into analog one, that would benefit from Black Gate cap... 
 

 Quote:


 Not correct.
 - limitation is the inductor value Creative selected for the stock capacitor type.
 - this applies to both SB0460 (Music, Fatality, etc.) and SB0550 (Elite) 
 

It is true and your own measurments confirm that, as mine did and as the experiement with very big cap that shut the regulator down effectively.
 In your tests, the voltage is much cleaner using the Jamicon crap that Oscon and in RMAA tests the Oscon take beating from Panny FK.
 Hence trying there a very big capacitances and very low ERS caps is a no-no thing. It can even render the card not working. In better cases, it just made the voltage spikes affecting the requlting quality.

 Perhaps you misread my horrible english only...? Because you are saying what I'm saing... just a bit differently. And not to worry, I studied your mod. I had some serious question about it, tough 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 They are mainly related to choice of some caps. I mean - it should be discovered and measured what each one certain caps do and then replace them with the type according to the use of the cap. Either low-ESR (voltage filtering) or audio grade (when used for audio). As the 16x decoupling 22uF Jamicons are and w/o them I hear NO SOUND 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


 SB0460 Annotated Parts Reference Picture 
 

Good one. But can you tell me, what the C91 a C119 do? I'm affraid that they support the voltage filering and a bigger cap there should be handy?
 C16 - are you sure this is not voltage filtering cap for the DAC? I put a 470uF 6.3V Samxon GD there 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 The cap behing C46 - the voltge filtering one for the opamps - what it is his purpose? Filtering gameport voltage? Must it he 25V one?
 C108 and C107 - they are connected to the DAC FILT+ port. You sure the best choice are the tantal caps there?
 What does do C96 and C114?


----------



## trodas

So, there is how it looked like with all the 22uF 16V Jamicons shorted as recommended:






 However there is a "slight" problem - no sound at all 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 What is worser is, that even when I actually undo this and put there instead of the cursed Jamicons a Panny FC 22uF 25V caps, there is still no sound. So, what I did today to end up with not working X-Fi?

 Simple.

 Exchanged the last remaining Left/Right opamp to the LM4562.
 Replaced C177 from Panny FM 470uF 16V to Samxon RS 3300uF 10V.
 Replaced C16 from Panny FM 220uF 10V to Samxon GD 470uF 6.3V.
 Removed 16 pcs of coupling caps C23, C50, C76, C77, C28, C55, C85, C83, C61, C32, C62, C26, C67, C36, C34 and C68 and shorted them all with wire to get rid of the cursed Jamicons and improve the quality of sound output.

 Took photos, put back in PC and my audiocard was not detected anymore.
 Brilliant.

 Replaced C177 from Samxon RS 3300uF 10V to Samxon GC 1000uF 6.3V.

 Put back in PC, card now detected properly and Creative diag report no errors, yet still not a whisper from speakers...



 



  Quote:


 Creative Diagnostics 4.0 Test Log 
 Detected device: 
 SB X-Fi [CF00] 

 Tested device:SB X-Fi [CF00] 
 02/09/2008 05:00:19PM Drivers Tests Pass 
 02/09/2008 05:00:22PM Windows Multimedia Tests Pass 
 02/09/2008 05:00:23PM DirectSound Tests Pass 
 

...so I tried put the 16 pcs of coupling caps back there. Only instead of Jamicons 22uF 16V I used Panny FC 22uF 25V - they are at least usable for low-end audio, so till I get real audio caps, like Elna RSF ones, they have to do it...

 But still no sound at all.

 Then I changed back the C16 from Samxon GD 470uF 6.3V to Panny FM 220uF 10V that was there, yet still no change. Card still stays muted.

 Suggestions...? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






 PS. as you probably noticed, the there "surroud" opamps are "MTRA L4562 MA", yet the last one is "MURA L4562 MA" that come in different samples shipment. There is it even better visible:



 Should I worry about it? I think it is just the TI date labels or something like that...? Or it is not?


----------



## unknown123

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bichi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If you can take a good close-up picture of the damaged area and post, I might be able to suggest a "wire-re-route" fix...

 Close-up quality similar to this, as an example:
X-FI-MOD-092b - eSnips, share anything_

 

This is a close up as my camera phone would let me get without blur:






 Shot with N95 at 2008-02-09

 I think its pretty obvious where the damage is. It looks worse than it did before because I tried to "fix" it.


----------



## eboy2003

Just put my fully modded XtremeMusic SB0460 card on ebay here, I'm also transit to SB0550.


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *unknown123* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is a close up as my camera phone would let me get without blur:
 I think its pretty obvious where the damage is. It looks worse than it did before because I tried to "fix" it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Obvious? - LOL
 - picture shows routes for +/-IN and O (output) in different colors for both channels (link below)
 - assuming right channel is working, then pins #4 and #8 (power) and pins #5, #6, #7 (right channel) are good. 
 - suspect pins are #1 (output), #2 (-IN) and #3 (+IN)
 - guessing from your picture, pin #3 is the damaged pad.
 - if you have an ohmmeter (DVM), confirm continuity is bad (yellow route)

 Will require steady hands, good quality small-tipped soldering iron, SMT soldering skills, etc...
 - risk is accidentally removing small SMT part(s) when soldering wires to alternate pad (they will lift off easily, if not careful)
 - suggest using "soldering paste," instead of "wire solder" for this task
 - small gauge wire, similar to Kynar #30
 - maybe read "solder paste method" post for context? (solder-paste dot on wire end)
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/ho...ml#post3210241

 Best of Luck!

*REFs:*
 U2 Audio Signal Route Picture for SB0460:
X-FI-MOD-099c - eSnips, share anything

 Solder Paste example:
 Solder-It, SP-7 (sold at Frys Electronics, if one is near you)
FRYS.com | Wahl Clipper

 Kynar 30 gauge wire example:
FRYS.com


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *eboy2003* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just put my fully modded XtremeMusic SB0460 card on ebay... I'm also transit to SB0550._

 

"...Better than Stock Elite Pro..." - LOL!
 meet at local Fry's on Arques sometime?


----------



## kite7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bichi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_"...Better than Stock Elite Pro..." - LOL!
 meet at local Fry's on Arques sometime?_

 

How is that laughable? Unless you're being sarcastic


----------



## unknown123

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bichi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Obvious? - LOL
 - picture shows routes for +/-IN and O (output) in different colors for both channels (link below)
 - assuming right channel is working, then pins #4 and #8 (power) and pins #5, #6, #7 (right channel) are good. 
 - suspect pins are #1 (output), #2 (-IN) and #3 (+IN)
 - guessing from your picture, pin #3 is the damaged pad.
 - if you have an ohmmeter (DVM), confirm continuity is bad (yellow route)..._

 

According to your picture it is #3, however it was the left channel that was working and the right was mute. Due to my lack of technical knowledge in this area I'm not very comprehensive, so what I'm guessing your telling me that if I bridge pin 3 to the area sound will magically appear? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I try not to pretend to know what I'm doing, I'm just willing to do it anyway.


----------



## bichi

*unknown123,*
 - if you have an ohmmeter (borrow one, if you can), suggest doing continuity checks before wiring.
 - if pin #3 matches your problem, then give it a go
 - if still no sound, then do pins #1 and #2
 - if nothing works, then, its possible there might be a solder short, underneath the chip, which can't be seen...

 Just to repeat, SMT parts will lift-away easily when heated...

 Good Luck!


----------



## trodas

*bichi* - and any answer to my questions about the caps/problems with now muted X-Fi? Any ideas?


----------



## unknown123

Bichi, you're the man! Haha it was a shoddy looking fix but I bridged the two areas like you suggested and I have sound again, I'm actually surprised, not that your advice was good, but that my crappy work...well worked.


----------



## eboy2003

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bichi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_"...Better than Stock Elite Pro..." - LOL!
 meet at local Fry's on Arques sometime?_

 

The RMAA scores does not mean everything for head-fiers. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The stock Elite Pro indeed sounds like a low-fi card even the RMAA score is awesome. Since you are also in SV, let's exchange more ideas to make it better. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I notice you use tant on decoupling and digital section a lot, how are they comparing the sanyo oscon SA/SC series? I definitely would not recommend use those newer polymer solid caps due to their ultra-high leak current. But SA/SC series seems have < 0.01CV leak current, comparable to electrolytic counterparts.


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *trodas* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*bichi* - and any answer to my questions about the caps/problems with now muted X-Fi? Any ideas? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





_

 

- forgotten your derogatory comments about Americans, when you mis-identified a Canadian?
 - don't expect help from me


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *eboy2003* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The RMAA scores does not mean everything for head-fiers.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

- agreed, but its the only commonly available, easy to use "objective" comparision for "online" stuff
 - don't think most here would understand FFT/Bode plots from B&K or HP analyzers...

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *eboy2003* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The stock Elite Pro indeed sounds like a low-fi card even the RMAA score is awesome._

 

- you mean "flat," audio spectra, as it should be - LOL

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *eboy2003* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Since you are also in SV, let's exchange more ideas to make it better. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

- yeah, would be fun. sent you PM (don't know if it's working, after site implosion weeks ago)
 - if you choose to socket SB0550 Line-Out, I can give you a matched set of MLCC X7R 60uf caps to play and compare with.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *eboy2003* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I notice you use tant on decoupling and digital section a lot, how are they comparing the sanyo oscon SA/SC series? I definitely would not recommend use those newer polymer solid caps due to their ultra-high leak current. But SA/SC series seems have < 0.01CV leak current, comparable to electrolytic counterparts._

 

- a practice that's served for decades for me, doing hi-speed digital designs.
 - followed C Bateman, I Catt, B Pease, W Jung, etc., as well as "marketechture" tech/app papers on "Capacitors," over past decades and decided to do some "fun" stuff, applied to audio stuff, starting with SB0460 and now, SB0550.
 - can't speak to OSCON SA/SC series yet, playing with "verboten" MLCC for coupling and power de-coupling.
 - quick "listen" test with solid polymers, for my taste, sounded a bit "hard" and peaked "sibliants/essing." (to your point, RMAA looked outstanding, however) 
 (SB0550: Va and Vd power: C104, C133, C131, C154, C55, Line-Out: MLCC, X7R, 60uf, matched set)
 - reverted back to Panasonic FM's until MLCC test phase is over...

*REFs: sample cross-section of papers/app notes*
 SOUND OF CAPACITORS:
The "Sound" of Capacitors

 PICKING CAPACITORS:
Picking Capacitors - Walter G. Jung and Richard Marsh
Services

 Recommended Output Filters for Wolfson Audio DACs:
http://www.wolfsonmicro.com/uploads/...en/WAN0171.pdf

 Comparison of MLC and Tantalum Capacitors:
http://www.avxcorp.com/docs/techinfo/mlc-tant.pdf

 SOLUTION FOR INCREASING CAPACITANCE DEMAND HIGH CV TANTALUM CAPACITORS
http://www.kyocera.co.jp/prdct/elect...cal/highcv.pdf

 Circuit Tradeoffs Minimize Noise in Battery-Input Power Supplies
http://pdfserv.maxim-ic.com/en/an/AN653.pdf

 JDI MLCC TANCERM
http://www.johansondielectrics.com/p...am_2007-08.pdf
http://www.johansondielectrics.com/t...-Apps_3-03.pdf


----------



## eboy2003

Hi Bichi,

 Thanks for your info. PM sent. I will bring my current modded SB0550.


----------



## maarek99

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bichi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_- you mean "flat," audio spectra, as it should be - LOL_

 

Well the Elite Pro has some treble glare so it sounds somewhat tipped off at the treble. It doesn't resolve textures or ambience very well either.

 RMAA tells that its perfect, but according to RMAA there shouldn't be any hearable difference between ANY modern soundcard so I don't really trust it.


----------



## trodas

Hoooray! Bug found and my X-Fi play again 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I was too careless. Hurry too much. My fault. My bad. I realized that over 26 years of soldering is all for nothing, when you get careless.

 After hours of searching, I find it. I lifted and disconnected a small wire on the TOP side of the X-Fi (!) bellow C16. It lead power to the DAC and hence - no sound at all.
 I must say I suspected the DAC from the second one, however ... usualy I search for things where I do solder. At bottom. This time the cap was inadequaly heated and took the small PCB part with it.

 So now I perhaps should remove the decoupling caps again? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Anyway, when searching for the DAC powering, I made this:

 X-Fi Fatal1ty DAC is Cirrus Logic CS4382 - http://www.cirrus.com/en/pubs/proDat.../CS4382_F1.pdf











 The imput VA/VD voltage caps as shown above are on X-Fi the C91 and C119 while the voltage pass to them thru the two L things bellow them.

 New opamps LM4562
LM4562 - Dual High Performance, High Fidelity Audio Operational Amplifier

 Voltage regulator 1.2V (CA20K1 - main chip) - PS54352
http://www.ti.com/lit/gpn/tps54352
 input (5V) cap filter - C172, output cap filter - C177

 Voltage regulator 3.3V (???) - AMS1117
http://www.ortodoxism.ro/datasheets/...ms/mXuxzrt.pdf

 Voltage regulator 5V (opamps + DAC VA) - UA78M05C
http://www.ortodoxism.ro/datasheets2...p82zof95wy.pdf
 input (12V) cap filter - 

 79L05
 Voltage regulator ??V (DAC VD) - ???



*bichi* - I made those comments privately to you and I though that things said between gentlemans stay between them.
 Also I said that in anger, when in a response to my mod I get the "That's the dumbest thing I've seen..." reaction.
 You never swear when someone have so derogatory comments on your work? No? Never? I do and I can admit that. Do you?


----------



## minivan

had these pic posted before? if it had , sorry, the thread is too long for me to go through.
 the mod applied 12v to the opamp through those wiring instead of 5v.he used AD8620BRz for the main sound, op2604 for others.


----------



## eboy2003

Just want to give everyone an update on my trial result of bichi's X7R MLCC cap as coupling cap on X-Fi Elite Pro.

 First of all, thanks a million to bichi for providing samples and give me this chance to try. Bichi is a very cool guy to meet anyway. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 My original mod was using 100ohm resistors replaces coupling cap C35, C45, C58, C49. I made a few other modifications on my existing X-fi elite since met bichi, including changed the C104, C133, C154 +/- 12V and +5V power cap to 470uF/16V panny FM, changed DSP power filter cap C151 to 1000uF/6.3V FC, changed DAC decoupling cap C40 to Elna Silmic II 100uF and replaced C60, C55, C109, C131 from Oscon 47uF to Kemet tant 47uF. To avoid these changes affecting the MLCC cap trial, I let the card burn-in for three days.

 Now comes the MLCC caps to try.

 With 100ohm shorted, at idle, the left channel measures +5mV and right channel measures -1mV. With MLCC cap, but channels are 0mV at idle, which is expected.

 First, let's look at the RMAA result from technical perspective. 
*My system:*
 W2K3 x64 Q6600 @ 3GHz, 4GB memory (sorry no crappy Vista)
 X-Fi Driver: the latest Creative beta driver 6.0.1.1281
 X-Fi mode: audio creation mode, 24/96, bit-perfect playback enabled
 RMAA: 6.0.6
 Player: foobar 0.9.4.5 with ASIO plugin
 Headphone: HD-595 direct on line-out

 The MLCC cap result is excellent, there is very slight loss on the low freq side, but it's barely noticeable. The dynamic range of MLCC cap is excellent.

 Next, some real listening test.
 I used Burmester Reference CD #2 for testing. The MLCC cap sounds very neutral, the high is open and transparent, and the bass is tight. It's noticeable with MLCC cap, it reveals more details. The sound is colorless, so depends on the personal preference, some people may feel it's too cold. As far as the bass goes, I do not see any noticeable bass loss. HD-595's bass response is not that good anyway.

 Overall, I really like the MLCC sound, and decide to keep the setup. It's a little bit cold for some female vocal scenario, but once I change the output to my little dot MK 3 tube headamp, everything is perfect.

 All images are here.


----------



## bichi

It was FUN meeting you too, *eBoy2k3!*
 - too bad you're a "software" design guru and not a HARDWARE "He-Man" - (LOL!)

 Very cool you took the time to make the mod, with precision approach!
 - have been curious to get an "independent" test for months on "verboten" MLCC, applied as audio coupling.

 Have made a few more measurements and changed MLCC value a bit...
 - will exchange the set with new ones, next time we meet, maybe at HSC Electronics? (map below)
 - I see our RMAA results match, especially low-end bumps, seen on IM distortion result.
 - new values designed to match "shorted" low-end IMD performance and "very-low" bass response.
 - will also bring lower-voltage TANTs (smaller) and SOIC socket/plug stuff.

 Beta drivers, eh?
 - will install, based on your experience.

*REFs:*
_RMAA v6.0.6 results, MLCC x3 22uf, complete set: (caps same as yours)
X-FI-MOD-101 - eSnips, share anything

 HSC Electronics Supply location:
HSC Electronic Supply - Silicon Valley's Electronic Marketplace_


----------



## bichi

SB0550 - Pink and White noise response
 - MLCC X7R, 22uf x 3; matched set; audio coupling, Line-Out
 - opamp: NJM5532
 - audioTester DE v2.2c build 5

 PINK:
X-FI-MOD-102a - eSnips, share anything

 WHITE:
X-FI-MOD-102b - eSnips, share anything

 Picture of MLCC cap-stack and other tested caps:
X-FI-MOD-100a - eSnips, share anything

*REFs:*
_AudioTester DE v2.2c-build 5
audioTester

 Pink Noise Definition:
Pink noise - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 White Noise Definition:
White noise - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia_


----------



## coho66

so in looking at the blackgate supply listing on partsconnexion's website, I noticed that there's more than one series with a part of compatible spec. It appears to me it's between a polar "FK" unit and a "STD" polar unit...will i want to go with the FK over the std? I noticed that the mod also described using a 2200 versus the stock 470 microfarad cap...i'm wondering if the extra buffer size would be worth the extra hassle in mounting them...the 1000 and 2200 are HUGE....


 Here's their little spiele:

 "AC - non-polar, high-current, compact for loudspeaker cross-over applications 
 C - polarized, coupling applications, compact, great value for money 
 FK / K / VK - highest technology polarized, rated up to 350V 
 N - non-polar 
 NH - non-polar, high voltage 
 NX - highest technology non-polar 
 NOTE: Use N/NH/NX series in the most critical coupling and power supply applications 
 STD - polarized, standard grade, excellent value for money 
 PK - polarized, ultra compact/miniature size 
 WKZ - polarized, high voltage, large can, for tube amplifier B+ supply 
 WK - non-polar, asymmetrical "power tank" design, high current applications"


----------



## desaturated

hi i will like to replace the cap of my audigy 2 zs with blackgate.. may i know which cap should i replace?


----------



## joneeboi

I'm wondering, what other opamps have people tried in the X-Fi? I'm getting a Fatality Pro soon, so I'm wondering if there are other opamps I could try.


----------



## bichi

FYI:
 - noticed a small noise floor increase during X-FI Elite (SB0550) testing/mods and P5WDH BIOS 2602. (system specs in sig below)
 - see across RMAA v6.0.6 tests, THD, THD+Noise, etc.
 - installing older BIOS, 2406 fixed issue.
 - theory might be processor PWM control code for newer processor support might be cause.

 More of a "curiosity" than an operational problem.

 RMAA Test Result:
X-FI-MOD-104 - eSnips, share anything


----------



## Random Murderer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *desaturated* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_hi i will like to replace the cap of my audigy 2 zs with blackgate.. may i know which cap should i replace?




_

 

it's the cap to direct lower right of the main processing chip. should be a 100µf 16v jamicon cap. i replaced mine with a 1000µf NTE cap.









 On a different note, which chip is the stereo opamp on the audigy 2 zs?
 i have some lm4562ma's on the way.


----------



## Random Murderer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Random Murderer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_it's the cap to direct lower right of the main processing chip. should be a 100µf 16v jamicon cap. i replaced mine with a 1000µf NTE cap.









 On a different note, which chip is the stereo opamp on the audigy 2 zs?
 i have some lm4562ma's on the way._

 

ok, so i've been busy the last few days trying to find the perfect sounding cap.
 originally i had an NTE 16v 1000µf cap that sounded great. since then, i've tried a 16v 470µf Rubycon YK, a 16v 470µf Rubycon (unlabeled, but it's light blue), and both of those sounded good but there was crackling in the highs.
 just a few minutes ago i put a 3300µf 50v Nichicon VX(M) on and it sounds as good, if not better than, the NTE.









 i'm still trying to figure out which opamp is for stereo on this card, help would be appreciated.


----------



## bichi

For the "hardcore" SB0550 modders:

*SB0550* Elite
 - U7 Line-Out opamp decoupling experiment.
 - assumes U7 has been socketed and requires ground stake soldered to AUX connector signal ground.
 - requires building an adapter to connect bypass capacitors from V+ and V- to ground and small value capacitor across V+ and V- rails.
 - can also apply to SB0460, (U2) with 5vdc for V+ and V-.

*eBoy2k3:*
 - share your experiences/results here so others can benefit too, LOL!

_Pictures of carrier/adapter with circuit details:_
X-FI-MOD-105 - eSnips, share anything
X-FI-MOD-106 - eSnips, share anything


----------



## Random Murderer

no sb0350 love?


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Random Murderer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_no sb0350 love?_

 

I don't own a SB0350 (Audigy) and its design is different than X-FI SB0460 (Music, Fatality) or X-FI SB0550 (Elite)
 - only post from actual experience, rather than guesses
 - might have better luck if you started an Audigy mod thread instead of using one for X-FI?


----------



## Random Murderer

is there a cheaper alternative to ers paper? it's really expensive!


----------



## Robgo

If you own a Auzen Prelude or X-Meridian (I think it's the meridian anyways) you can bypass the opamp entirely and get very clear sound from your card. To do this, all you need to to is take a very small wire and bridge the 3rd and 6th opamp terminals 



 You get very clear sound this way, albeit at a cost since the output volume is very low this way now. My Darkvoice 332 isn't loud enough to output at a satisfactory level with the opamps removed, so I will most likely buy a dedicated DAC instead, rather than have to go back to opamps, which I found to sound quite poor (the lm4562 is very grainy sounding compared with the bypassed opamp mod) It's still quite loud but just barely not loud enough for some of the classical music I enjoy so I will have to try something else. This mod would probably be fine if most of your source music is quite loud or even just at an average recording volume. That is, if you have an amp, of course. 

 I've gone through just about every opamp you can use in this card though and none sound as good as with the opamp bypassed entirely.


----------



## Random Murderer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *minivan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_had these pic posted before? if it had , sorry, the thread is too long for me to go through.
 the mod applied 12v to the opamp through those wiring instead of 5v.he used AD8620BRz for the main sound, op2604 for others.





_

 

where did he draw the 12v from? it looks like two resistors near the front of the pci slot, but opposite ends of the resistors?


----------



## natural_nut

Has anybody tried doing any mods to the xMod?


----------



## trodas

*Random Murderer* - the mod loooks a bit crazy to me. He took the 12V directly from the PCI connectors. This way he add all the noise the 12V line took over going in the machine to the opamps voltage input. It is true, however, that these LM4562 suxxkas can operate, as mentioned there:
LM4562 - Dual High Performance, High Fidelity Audio Operational Amplifier
 on voltage ranges from 2.5V to 17V, and 12V probably give a good boost of the output signal strenght. Neverless I would not do it this way. I would try either mod the UA78M05C voltage regulator ( http://www.ortodoxism.ro/datasheets2...p82zof95wy.pdf ) to give me like 9 or 10V or just replace it with 9 or 10V compatible regulator. That way I would eliminate all the noise from voltage and still give the output a considerable boost.
 The question is, why this is wanted and what results this could give in terms of quality.

 And I think that heatsinking these opamps should be in order then 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Less temperature = less noise 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





 Anyone know, what are the JP2 jumper on the Fatal1ty (SB0460) for?


----------



## eboy2003

Just give an update on my SB0550 mods.

 Replaced all OSCON decouple caps to tantalum ones. It appears the ultra low ESR OSCON has some side effects when directly replaced the electrolytic caps, and could cause regulator instable. Normally when OSCON is used, the circuit need to be modified slightly to prevent its high ripple current due to low ESR. The tantalum ones have medium ESR (~0.5ohm at 100KHz) are ideal for direct replacement. But tant caps are not very tolerant to voltage overrating, general guidance is the voltage rate should be at least 2X, sometimes 3X of the actual voltage.

 Also found the AUX power connector on my mobo (Abit IN9-32MAX) next the sound card introduced significant noise, since I don't run SLI, removed that connector improved both SNR and dynamic range by about 2db.

 I also made similar DIP socket adapter like *bichi*'s for line-out opamp. Now using the DIP 8-pin LME49860, decoupled with 2 10uf/35v Sprague tant and the dynamic is noticeably improved. However, the RMAA score does not change much, as we are reaching the limit of the ADC SNR and dynamic range up ceiling. All three opamps for line-in have been changed to LME49860 SOIC.










 Changed the DAC coupling caps from 66uF MLCC to 88uF MLCC, thanks *bichi *for giving these caps to me to try. The bass is further improved, but I personally don't feel the high is too bright. Maybe because this time I only listened thru my LD MK III tube amp, but not directly connect the headphone to the line-out.

 I played a little bit with the ADC coupling cap C27, C15 (stock 10uf NP) and C29, C14 (stock 47uf/16v), now all socketed. See the following result for comparisons:






 I settled with the combination of 22uf MLCC for C27, C15, and 68uf tantalum for C29, C14. The frequency response is awesome with moderated IMD+Noise. I also tried 66uf MLCC for C29 and C14, but the IMD+Noise jumped to 0.0065, so definitely don't put too many MLCC in the audio path. The only thing troubles me is my SB0550 stereo crosstalk have some funny pattern, it starts climbing from 1KHz almost linearly in 24/48 and 24/96 testing. The stock elite pro had the same issue even before I start modding, and the official RMAA X-Fi test report illustrated the same pattern.






*stock X-Fi Elite Pro before modding*





 To identify the cause of this crosstalk issue, I ran a few tests. 1) The DSP internal loopback (select record input "Wave" in Audio Creation Mode) testing. 2) SB0550 digital out to my receiver to decode and the receiver preamp out is connected to SB0550 line-in. This bypasses the line-out section. 3) SB0550 line-out connects to a laptop's line-in (w/ realtek chip) to run RMAA record-only test on the laptop, this bypasses the line-in section. 4) Just for comparison, the laptop's external loopback crosstalk patern.






 Can anyone who have X-Fi Elite Pro also check you stereo crosstalk pattern? My SB0550 is the original release that does not have heatsink (I added heatsink myself) and the X-RAM is only on the component side of the PCB and the back side PCB does not have soldering pad for X-RAM. *Bichi*'s SB0550 repair picture shows his one has X-RAM on both side of PCB, and it has stock heatsink, so looks like the SB0550 has two version of PCB and maybe the older version has some design issue, or firmware issue. Can anyone confirm?


----------



## unclev

Is the new PCIe version of the Xi-Fi Xtreme Audio sutable for this mod?

PCI Express Sound Blaster X-Fi Xtreme Audio SB1040EF - Sound Blaster - Your Movies and Music. Way Better


----------



## trodas

*eboy2003* - interesting work, congratulations! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The LME49860 is not made in SOIC package, or is it? It is better that the LM4562MA ...? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Do it have sense to replace the Mic input opamp? With the LM4562MA...?

 And as I see the add heatsink - helps? The chip is overheating that much? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





 PS. middle stage of my experiments - Panny FC 22uF 25V used, before simple wires 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	









 Not bad 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But only wires are better - give better audio details 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 (and noticably stronger bass line, witch is somewhat extreme sometimes...)


----------



## Random Murderer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *trodas* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*eboy2003* - interesting work, congratulations! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The LME49860 is not made in SOIC package, or is it? It is better that the LM4562MA ...? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

yes, there is a SOIC narrow LME49860, i have 5 on the way. the only diference between the 49860 and the 4562 is that the 49860 is rated for 44v, whereas the 4562 is only rated for 36v. Quote:


  Originally Posted by *trodas* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_PS. middle stage of my experiments - Panny FC 22uF 25V used, before simple wires 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	









 Not bad 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But only wires are better - give better audio details 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 (and noticably stronger bass line, witch is somewhat extreme sometimes...)_

 

would you recommend removing the caps and replacing it with wire if an equalizer is used to reduce bass?


----------



## eboy2003

From what I heard from a National sales guy LME49860/LME49720/LM4562 are all same chips but binned, similar to how intel marks their CPU clock speed. 

 The SB0460 runs all opamps at +/- 5V, so using LME49860 does not make any sense. SB0550, on the other hand, runs all opamps at +/- 12V directly from PCI bus w/o additional regulator, so having a good PSU and opamp is more important.

 Anyone with SB0550 done some stereo crosstalk testing yet?


----------



## bichi

What?
 - LME49860, including siblings, will operate down to +/-2.5vdc, Vcc/Vee.
 - note operating at lower voltages reduces output swing, obviously.
 - and wasn't that part of your "beats X-FI Elite" "marketecture," when you sold yer SB0460, eBoy2k3? LOL! 

 See THD+N, PSRR, Output Vo, Freqs, etc., vs. supply voltage, LME49860 datasheet.

 Bottom line, LME49860 will work with +/-5vdc supply, as well as siblings, barring slight price increase, in some cases.
 - worked fine on SB0460 when I was playing with it...

 Price Reference: Digikey; quant 1; Mar 05, 08
 LM4562 DIP or SOIC: $5.70000
 LME49720 DIP or SOIC: $5.70000
 LME49860 DIP or SOIC: $6.18000

 LME49860 Datasheet:
http://www.national.com/ds.cgi/LM/LME49860.pdf

*eboy2k3:* more toys to play with, cheap! And its local to us too!
 - eBay Store - MeasureExplorer: Prototype Boards: ME-PB-101RW wireless circuit proto prototype PCB board
 - be prepared to spend more cash, next time we meet. LOL! (read: LM3886)
 - model number of desolder tool I was yakking about: Hakko 808 (Frys)
 - pictured, lower left, in the 633 stand: X-FI-MOD-001b - eSnips, share anything


----------



## trodas

*Random Murderer* -  Quote:


 only diference between the 49860 and the 4562 is that the 49860 is rated for 44v, whereas the 4562 is only rated for 36v 
 

Then the 4562 might be better off operating at 5V in Fatal1ty I think.

  Quote:


 would you recommend removing the caps and replacing it with wire if an equalizer is used to reduce bass? 
 

Yes, definitively. And I think the bass is probably meant to be this way strong. After all the subwoofer effects in Matrix series, The Last Samurai and other DTC movies I tested are made for shaking your world and to sound realistic. So they do now...
 The difference in bass is the biggest one, however my ears catch up a notable difference in the music "details", if I can label it that 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 So, I would definitively recommend that to everyone.

 It is very simple in fact. Jamicon caps are terrible crappy caps. Jamicons are the very last thing ANYONE want to stand between them and the music. Jamicons are not low ESR caps, nor audio caps. And on top of that, they are known to dry and fail miserably, they are known bad caps.
 Conclusion - all Jamicons must get OFF my card. The sooner the better.


*eboy2003* -  Quote:


 SB0550, on the other hand, runs all opamps at +/- 12V directly from PCI bus w/o additional regulator, so having a good PSU... 
 

I would add - so having a good PSU with good caps (Samxons, Rubycons, Nichicons low-ESR lines couples with ceramic caps and polymers on the PCI bus) and great voltge filtering is absolutely mandatory.

 If nothing of that is installed, then the whole noise the mainboard and PSU put to the PCI voltage lines end up on your Opamps.

 This is the latest thing anyone want. Opamps voltage should be as clean, as possible. And the on-card voltage regulator, as X-Fi has, is the way to go. Reading this, I would definitively NOT want SB0550. Direct opamps powering from 12V line from PCI is very bad for audio quality.
 Frankly spoken, it suxx. Creative design at work ... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





*bichi* -  Quote:


 perating at lower voltages reduces output swing 
 

Good point!


----------



## bichi

*SB0550* X-FI Elite hardcore U7 Carrier/Socketed Mods:
 - can apply to SB0460 U2 Line-Out, but not tested

 OPA2134 + 47uf @ 16vdc Panasonic S mini (standard 85c) + 100nf across V+ and V- (back of board)
 - warmish flat, good hi-image, separation and soundstage, mild attack, a bit boosted in bass

 LME49860 + 47uf @ 16vdc Panasonic S mini (standard 85c) + 100nf across V+ and V- (back of board)
 - studio flat, good hi-image, separation and soundstage, fast attack, accurate bass

 NE5532D + 47uf @ 16vdc Panasonic S mini (standard 85c) + 100nf across V+ and V- (back of board)
 - flattish, good image, separation and soundstage, lively dynamics, full bass

 Other med-ESR/low ESR electrolytics (FC 47uf, FM 68uf) seemed to push mids forward and "stiffen" high end
 Tantalum 47uf seemed to slow bass down, but still sounded OK

_Source:
 Kikujiro; title track, piano/violin/viola/bell solos (48k/24b from Kikujiro DVD)
 Rickie Lee Jones CD; "Easy Money"
 Corinne Bailey Ray CD; "Put Your Records On"
 Sarah McLachlan; "World on Fire" (48k/24b from "Afterglow Live" DVD)
 Do It Acappella (Spike Lee/PBS) CD - "Lion Sleeps Tonight" - Mint Juleps/Ladysmith Black Mambazo

 Playback:
 M-Audio BX5a; set flat with 56hz -3db rolloff
 Sennheiser HD-414 SL (32-ohm originals, remuffed and re-ringed)

 Pictures:
 SB0550 - Rear mounted 100nf capacitor between +V and -V rails for U7 Line-Out opamp - see picture X-FI-MOD-105 for circuit
X-FI-MOD-107 - eSnips, share anything

 SB0550 - Test U7 carriers with solder-pads for +V/-V bypass capacitor - (caps not installed until rear-mounted 100nf cap is removed) - see picture X-FI-MOD-105 for circuit
X-FI-MOD-108 - eSnips, share anything_

*eboy2k3:*
 - now that you've socketed, time to exchange U7 carriers, eh?
 - kind of a "bee-atch," positioning caps on carrier; vertical is too tall and left/right mounting jams into MLCCs, eh? 
 - agreed, getting close to the limits of this board...


----------



## Random Murderer

well, i finished hotrodding my buddy's x-fi xtreme music, but he only gets audio out of the left channel... at first i thought it was because maybe the op-amp wasn't soldered on completely, so i resoldered it, then i thought it was because i removed the decoupling caps, so i replaced them to no avail. still only audio out of the left channel. What? help?


----------



## bichi

*SB0550* - X-FI Elite Pro only, Change Log and Pictures:
 - as of March 02, 2008

 CURRENTLY INSTALLED:
 U7: (socketed/carrier) LME49860; +V/-V to gnd: Panasonic "S" mini 47uf @ 16vdc standard 85c; 100nf across +V/-V, back of board
 Line-Out (C35, C45, C56, C49): TDK MLCC X7R, stacked, 22uf @ 16vdc x 4; 88uf (matched to +/- 0.4uf)

 U3: (socketed) AD8599
 Line-Ina (C15, C27): TDK MLCC X7R, 22uf @ 16vdc (matched to +/- 0.2uf) 
 Line-Inb: (C14, C29): Panasonic FM, 68uf @ 16vdc (matched to +/- 1uf)
 C47, C51, C7, C4: Kemet M+ TANT 680uf @ 6.3vdc (matched to +/- 3uf)

 C40: Panasonic "S" SMT 100uf @ 16vdc
 C55: Panasonic FM, 68uf @ 16vdc
 C63: Kemet TANT, 33uf @ 15vdc

 C104, C133: Panasonic FM, 330uf @ 25vdc
 C161: Rubycon MBZ, 1500uf @ 6.3vdc
 C154: Panasonic FM, 220uf @ 25vdc

 U4: heatsink added
 VR4: heatsink added

 Rest of caps replaced with Kemet or Panasonic TANT's at stock values

 Reference Picture:
X-FI-MOD-109 - eSnips, share anything

 Part Description in TXT format, ZIPPED:
X-FI-MOD-109 - eSnips, share anything


----------



## crazcookye

Some help please!

 I took my X-FI extrememusic (retail) to the company and have somone modded the OpAmp (LM4562MA) to the card, all four. The orientation is right, the solder job looks nice and clean and everything seems in order.

 But when I got the card back yesturday, plug into my computer, no sound comes out of any of the channels.

 I have tried different PCI Slots, Reinstall Drivers, and still nothing.

 What could be the problem?
 Again, no sound to any of the channels.


 thanks in advice


----------



## Random Murderer

Has nobody done this mod to an audigy 2 zs? i need to know which opamp is the stereo opamp before i go soldering...


----------



## eboy2003

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bichi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*eboy2k3:* more toys to play with, cheap! And its local to us too!
 - eBay Store - MeasureExplorer: Prototype Boards: ME-PB-101RW wireless circuit proto prototype PCB board
 - be prepared to spend more cash, next time we meet. LOL! (read: LM3886)
 - model number of desolder tool I was yakking about: Hakko 808 (Frys)
 - pictured, lower left, in the 633 stand: X-FI-MOD-001b - eSnips, share anything_

 

*bichi*
 The hakko 808 is around $180 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I will have to think about it.

 Chipamp? Hmm, next project I want to build a DAC w/ dual AD1955 or WM8741. Then I will probably dump my modded SB0550 and get a SB0460 other cheaper sound card for SPDIF out only. No space for speakers in my computer room, so I probably have to stick with head-fi'er route. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The 680uf tant for the SB0550 ADC is interesting. Do you see meaningful performance improvement on that part? 

 It seems no one responding for my stereo crosstalk pattern issue. Possible meet this Saturday here to swap the card to try?


----------



## Random Murderer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Random Murderer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Has nobody done this mod to an audigy 2 zs? i need to know which opamp is the stereo opamp before i go soldering..._

 

well, i said "screw it" and went ahead soldering. found the right opamp. had the stereo and line in opamps reversed in my head, but that's cool, i replaced both 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 lm4562ma's sound incredible... listening to rush right now, it's incredible. things i've never heard before have appeared.
 oh, and the 4562's SIGNIFICANTLY louder than the stockers.


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *eboy2003* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*bichi*
 The 680uf tant for the SB0550 ADC is interesting. Do you see meaningful performance improvement on that part?_

 

Only if one is *recording* and would like improved low-freg (20~200hz) response.
 - better THD and improved low-end crosstalk by 2~3db.
 - no issue increasing Vref Offset Cal period from 2.4sec to 3.4sec, relative to ucode. (see AK5394 ref below)
 - sonically, it reproduces better LF tracking/phase, but only if listening critically or doing delta-phase measurement.
 - for most, probably not worth $16+ USD new unit price, low-quant, for Kemet T510 at that value. (DigiKey: 399-3996-1-ND) 
 - planning to use modded SB0550 and analysis software to measure LM3886 performance, is main reason why I made the change. 

 ASAHI KASEI AK5394 - see page 15 and 21 
http://www.asahi-kasei.co.jp/akm/en/...5394a_f03e.pdf

 Crosstalk improvement results:
X-FI-MOD-110 - eSnips, share anything

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *eboy2003* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*bichi*
 The hakko 808 is around $180 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I will have to think about it._

 

Yikes!
 - price doubled in 2 years??
 - still worth it, in time savings, preventing lifted/dinged pads, less heat and redoing joints. (think cost of replacing ruined stuff...)
 - oh wait! - you're a soft-handed software GURU, never mind... - LOL! 
FRYS.com | Hakko

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *eboy2003* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*bichi*
 Possible meet this Saturday here to swap the card to try?_

 

Right!
 - usually there from 9:30am~2pm.
 - but if you are going to sell your SB0550 and go digital, is it worth the trouble?
 - pssssst... I have a SB0460, expertly modded (no weak pads) to "beat" X-FI Elite, complete with sockets for sale... (joking!)


----------



## Random Murderer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Random Murderer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_well, i finished hotrodding my buddy's x-fi xtreme music, but he only gets audio out of the left channel... at first i thought it was because maybe the op-amp wasn't soldered on completely, so i resoldered it, then i thought it was because i removed the decoupling caps, so i replaced them to no avail. still only audio out of the left channel. What? help?_

 

found the problem. either i had a bad opamp or i fried part of it somehow. we removed it and now his audio is a bit quiter, but even across the left and right channels. he'll hafta wait until i get my 49860's in before he gets an opamp, but he's cool with that.


----------



## eboy2003

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bichi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Only if one is *recording* and would like improved low-freg (20~200hz) response.
 - better THD and improved low-end crosstalk by 2~3db.
 - no issue increasing Vref Offset Cal period from 2.4sec to 3.4sec, relative to ucode. (see AK5394 ref below)
 - sonically, it reproduces better LF tracking/phase, but only if listening critically or doing delta-phase measurement.
 - for most, probably not worth $16+ USD new unit price, low-quant, for Kemet T510 at that value. (DigiKey: 399-3996-1-ND) 
 - planning to use modded SB0550 and analysis software to measure LM3886 performance, is main reason why I made the change. 
_

 

OK, I will try replacing those 4 470u caps on ADC. They are the only stock caps left (well other than rest of the channel coupling caps) anyway. Will see if that improves my stereo crosstalk issue. I use the SB0550 RMAA loopback with my LD MK3 headphone amp in preamp mode to do the tube matching when rolling tubes. I think this is the best computerized tube matching mechanism. Should patent this. LOL


  Quote:


 - pssssst... I have a SB0460, expertly modded (no weak pads) to "beat" X-FI Elite, complete with sockets for sale... (joking!) 
 






 Stop laughing at my ebay marketing tactics. But I do find SB0460's soldering pad is stronger than SB0550.


----------



## Bad_dude

Would Fish paper works as well as the ESR paper?

 Thanks.


----------



## Random Murderer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Random Murderer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_is there a cheaper alternative to ers paper? it's really expensive!_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bad_dude* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Would Fish paper works as well as the ESR paper?

 Thanks._

 

no, fish paper will not work, although i did take it upon myself to find a cheap alternative to ers. all you need is a cell phone that has service and a couple of anti-static bags(the clear gray bags that certain esd sensitive devices come in). not all anti-static bags are suitable, hence why you need the cell phone. grab a bag, put the cell phone in it, seal the bag, and if you completely lose signal, it's a suitable bag. i used an anti-static bag from a hard drive i bought a while back, dropped the card inside, and cut a slit for the pci connector to fit through. it looks ghetto, but i immediately noticed a difference in the sound, so it _is_ working.


----------



## bichi

*eboy2k3,*
 - have you tried TDK MLCC 22uf @ 16vdc and/or OSCON 4.7uf @ 25vdc on U7 carrier yet?
 - interesting how it changes speed/attack, imaging and mids...

 U7 Carrier Version 2
 - added RC from (V+) and (V-) to ground.
X-FI-MOD-111 - eSnips, share anything

 Other Stuff
 - missed you at Deanza meet
 - more stuff to play with:
LME49600 - High Performance, High Fidelity, High Current Audio Buffer
 (who needs, hot, fragile, high-voltage, vacuum-based, electron-shooters driving muffled, headache inducing head-clamps anymore? LOL!)
 - give you any ideas about modding Line-Out stage with this buffer?
 - might do a design this weekend, if parts get here in time....


----------



## eboy2003

*bichi*, sorry I have been busy at work and did not come here so often. I have been fairly happy with the current opamp carrier with 0.1u ceramic and 10u tant decoupling, but will give oscon a try when I get time. Plan to get a o'scope as a serious hobbyist. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I start feeling 4x22uf MLCC DAC coupling makes the high a little bit too bright and tiring, especially when listen to violin with lots of highs. Might switch back to 3x22u.

 Maybe meet sometime next week at HSC again?


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *eboy2003* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*bichi*
 "...I start feeling 4x22uf MLCC DAC coupling makes the high a little bit too bright and tiring, especially when listen to violin with lots of highs. Might switch back to 3x22u..." Maybe meet sometime next week at HSC again?_

 

Yeah, I get the same "impression" from time to time, depending on recording/source.
 - always thought stock opamp feedback circuit would need adjustment, but never took the time, until now.
 - desoldered C53, C60, C63 and measured values, inserted into TI TINA Simulator and did AC tranfer and noise runs.
 - stock results kinda show why it might be "bright" at high end.
 - values run: C60/62 = 700pf (stock); C60/62 = 1.0nf; C60/62 = 1.5nf

 Will install 1.0nf NPO and see what acutal effects occur and post RMAA's later this evening.
 - for now, gotta make a quick run to Fry's before they close...

_ummm, HSC might be tough this week, but maybe Thurs, Mar 20, 5:30pm..._

 REF:
 SB0550: U7 schematic:
X-FI-MOD-112-tina - eSnips, share anything

 SB0550: C60 & C62 AC and Noise Simulation Results:
X-FI-MOD-113-effect - eSnips, share anything

 SB0550: TI TINA TSC sim file, zipped:
X-FI-MOD-114-tina TSC - eSnips, share anything


----------



## bichi

U7 Feedback Loop Experiment
 - C60, C62, C32, C33 from 700pf to 1nf, NPO
 - did as TI TINA SIM predicted.
 - note increase in IMD...
 - all other RMAA parameters unchanged.
 - yeah, yeah C33 is a bit crooked, so bite me! LOL!

 Will have to listen for awhile and adjust coupling caps...

_RMAA:
X-FI-MOD-115-U7-C60C62-freq-IMD - eSnips, share anything

 Picture of location of new caps:
X-FI-MOD-116-U7-C60C62 - eSnips, share anything_


----------



## hyyam85

anyone has compared this against the x-fi prelude?


----------



## Random Murderer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hyyam85* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_anyone has compared this against the x-fi prelude?_

 

doesn't the prelude have swappable dip-chip opamps?


----------



## hyyam85

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Random Murderer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_doesn't the prelude have swappable dip-chip opamps?_

 

Yes, it does. What I am interested in is how does the creative x-fi modded with LN4562 opamp compare with auzentech x-fi prelude with the same opamp


----------



## Gautama

Doing something with my computer now so its temporarily inoperable. Instead, I am using my Zune as source.

 All I cay say is, wow.

 The 30gb Zune sounds like horse**** compared to AD8599 X-Fi. Sounds so unnatural and _wrong_. Soundstage has no depth anymore, instrument precision and that sweet, sweet midrange is gone. Bass impact is reduced, slightly boomy. Can't say anything about highs, my music doesn't feature enough for comment. Well, actually, as I just typed that there was a high part of a electric guitar solo, it sounded like it was wearing a wool sweater. Yes, thats the only way I can describe it.

 Summary: The modded X-Fi is FANTASTIC!


----------



## Hayduke

I did a quick search but didn't find it. Is there a table of which cards are good for this mod?

 I've read about 80 pages of this thread, so I know it's been discussed. I'm wondering if anyone has a list of all the cards (with model numbers ala SB0460 preferably) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Thanks in advance.


----------



## JwangSDC

Hmm, where can I buy these parts?


 ANyone else think someone should start doing these in bulk and selling them as modded XiFis?


----------



## sid311

Ok, I really screwed up on this mod. Stayed up till 3 am last night working on the cap and opamp mods on my x-fi elite. The cap alone took me way to long, at least an hour or more. I should have stopped there put pressed on and started on the opamps which was a big mistake. In my hurried and tired state I partially ripped one of the opamp pads up and am worried that it is unrepairable. I've googled around and have found some suggestions on repair but nothing firm. Can any of you help me with how to salvage the card?

 -sid


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sid311* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ok, I really screwed up on this mod.... In my hurried and tired state I partially ripped one of the opamp pads up and am worried that it is unrepairable. Can any of you help me with how to salvage the card? -sid_

 

Bummer...
 - kinda hard to tell specifically what to do without seeing the damage... (post a good, clear close-up?)
 - close-up of signal and power paths for U7, SB0550 Elite. (link below)
 - V-, pin #4, path is a bit hard to see, with socket installed, but terminates at a "via." (gold colored "hole")
 - check with DVM (ohmmeter) to determine which path(s) is/are broken.
 - after repair, check with DVM for correct continuity.
 - 'tis a good practice to check for "shorts" (low reading, <0.25 ohms = short) between repaired path and other paths.
 - CAUTION: SMT parts will lift-away easily, if not careful. 

 Read these past posts for tips and cautions: (applies to SB0460, but still relevant)
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/3781631-post1518.html
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/3781959-post1522.html

 Close up, SB0550 U7 signal/power paths:
X-FI-MOD-117-U7-paths - eSnips, share anything

 Best of luck!


----------



## sid311

Thanks for the reply Bichi. It is indeed a major bummer. Here's a pic of the damage, it occured at the U19 position which is the opamp for the front/sub I believe. You can see that part of the pad still remains. I can't see another trace exept for the one shown in the picture. Last night I hadn't noticed what had happened because only part of the pad had lifted up so I soldered the new opamp in position anyway. Upon listening I heard crackling and popping in the center channel and knew there was a problem. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

 -sid


----------



## sid311

Here's another pic of the damage. Arghhh, makes my stomach turn to post these!

 -sid


----------



## Random Murderer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sid311* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks for the reply Bichi. It is indeed a major bummer. Here's a pic of the damage, it occured at the U19 position which is the opamp for the front/sub I believe. You can see that part of the pad still remains. I can't see another trace exept for the one shown in the picture. Last night I hadn't noticed what had happened because only part of the pad had lifted up so I soldered the new opamp in position anyway. Upon listening I heard crackling and popping in the center channel and knew there was a problem. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

 -sid_

 

you should be able to just "make" a new pad out of solder.


----------



## sid311

That's what I was thinking at first but don't know if this is the correct way to make the repair. RatShack has those CircuitWriter pens, I wonder if this would work. It seems that the pad that is damaged only has one path to it, I'm wondering if I just solder the leg to the remaining portion then it might work again.

 -sid


----------



## bichi

*Sid311,*

 Doesn't look too bad...
 - took your picture, rotated 180 and blew it up.
 - while the chip is off, check continuity of all the other traces.
 - appears pin #3's pad is partially torn away.
 - two options:
 1) extend the pad with small wire or copper tape, then solder chip down.
 2) solder chip down, then solder small wire (ie., 30ga. Kaynar) from pin #3 to C173.

 I would do the second "wire" option, since pad "extention" can move or lose solder joint when soldering down chip.
 Solder-only "bridging," is not the best, since the solder can "retract," due to "capillary" action when heated. 
 (hard to see, since its underneath the chip/leg.) 

 Badmojo2 U19 Repair Picture:
X-FI-MOD-118-badmojo2-U19 Repair - eSnips, share anything

 Best of Luck!


----------



## sid311

Ok tried to extend the pad with copper wire with no luck, the piece was just too small the solder and wire continued to stick to the iron. Went out and bought the CircuitWriter pen at Fry's and extended the pad with it. Tested with multimeter and we're in business. Now the true test will be when the opamps arrive tomorrow and are installed properly. Thanks for the help Bichi, I'll let you know how it goes tomorrow.

 -sid


----------



## unknown123

Sid the same thing happened to me, and I just followed bichi's instructions (routing a copper wire from the pin on the opamp to the point on the picture and it works fine now) hope you get it fixed up, I know its frustrating.


----------



## Random Murderer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sid311* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ok tried to extend the pad with copper wire with no luck, the piece was just too small the solder and wire continued to stick to the iron. Went out and bought the CircuitWriter pen at Fry's and extended the pad with it. Tested with multimeter and we're in business. Now the true test will be when the opamps arrive tomorrow and are installed properly. Thanks for the help Bichi, I'll let you know how it goes tomorrow.

 -sid_

 

i don't know if that will work. i use conductive ink pens as well, but i've never tried soldering to the ink. good luck with that.


----------



## Fizzycapola

Random Murderer, I'm surprised to read you suggest making a pad with solder. As we know solder won't attach to bare circuit board.

 As am surprised about messing with lengths of copper wire. This could be tricky and cosmetically imperfect.

 To restore the broken pad to as new condition. I repaint on using *conductive silver paint*. It is very cheap to attain ($5) and you can layer it for superior /desired low resistance. It will also act just like the original pad (albeit much more delicate during soldering) after drying for one soldering using silver bearing solder. Atleast this is my experience which has worked in scenarios far far far far worse than sid's.

 I empathize with sid, I find that I can't just pull out my iron and start soldering at any time, afterall it's not my profession sometimes it's months between solders and most of my technique I forget, I have to have the right mental state, sometimes I start, realise I'm gonna screw it up and have to postpone until next week.

 *Errors and ommisions accepted, not all silver paint may be the same and not all may be solderable or attach to pcb board. I have not found any like this yet though. These views are my own and you may not agree with them there is no right or wrong only different techniques.


----------



## sid311

Woohoo!! Center and sub working again with no trace of distortion of any kind. Thanks for to all of you who helped out, I really appreciate it. The silver based CircuitWriter pen worked as advertised as I soldered directly to it. One other question for you guys. How did you go about attaching the ERS paper to the board? Thanks again! 

 -sid


----------



## Random Murderer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Fizzycapola* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Random Murderer, I'm surprised to read you suggest making a pad with solder. As we know solder won't attach to bare circuit board._

 

hey, you use enough flux and solder will attach to any solid


----------



## eboy2003

Here's my latest X-Fi Elite (SB0550) mod:

 Replaced the on board 78M05 (VR1 and VR4) to Motorola LM317T w/ 10uf Cadj for best ripple rejection. The RMAA score does not improve much. This is as expected since the mod is already pushing to top ceiling of the DAC/ADC capability. The sound testing yields better dynamics and slightly better detail in certain records.

 However, this does not fix my SB0550 (first release no heatsink on DSP chip) stereo crosstalk issue in 24-bit recording. Suspect this is either a firmware issue or PCB layout issue. Sigh...

 Had to replace one of the original omron relay, the soldering iron accidentally touched it when add LM317T to board. The pinout of LM317T and 78M05 are different, so need to flip the IC orientation and jump the Vout wire. C52 and C55 have to change to lay down position. Added grounded copper foil on DAC and ADC chip.


----------



## EBisky

Does anyone know of someone who would be willing to mod my card??

 I have never soldered anything in my life. I recently purchased a X-FI XtremeMusic card and would like to mod it, but in no way trust myself.

 Can anyone help me out?


----------



## Random Murderer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *EBisky* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does anyone know of someone who would be willing to mod my card??

 I have never soldered anything in my life. I recently purchased a X-FI XtremeMusic card and would like to mod it, but in no way trust myself.

 Can anyone help me out?_

 

i could do it, but you pay for shipping...


----------



## EBisky

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Random Murderer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i could do it, but you pay for shipping..._

 

PM'd!


----------



## Jame5

LME49860 - 44V Dual High Performance, High Fidelity Audio Operational Amplifier

 So from what I've been able to glean from this thread, the 49860's are an ok replacement for the 4562's?


----------



## Random Murderer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jame5* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_LME49860 - 44V Dual High Performance, High Fidelity Audio Operational Amplifier

 So from what I've been able to glean from this thread, the 49860's are an ok replacement for the 4562's?_

 

it's the same chip, just rated for higher voltage. go ahead and use the 49860 if you want.


----------



## Jame5

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Random Murderer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_it's the same chip, just rated for higher voltage. go ahead and use the 49860 if you want._

 

Groovy.

 I just found this thread thanks to a link from Sharky Forums , and I wanted to say that since switching to the X-Fi I've been disappointed with the sound quality, even compared to my old SBLive! 5.1 card.

 I'm hoping that a bit of soldering and $20 worth of parts can change that. Or it will force me to buy a new card if I fry this one, either way.


----------



## Random Murderer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jame5* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Groovy.

 I just found this thread thanks to a link from Sharky Forums , and I wanted to say that since switching to the X-Fi I've been disappointed with the sound quality, even compared to my old SBLive! 5.1 card.

 I'm hoping that a bit of soldering and $20 worth of parts can change that. Or it will force me to buy a new card if I fry this one, either way. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

yea, a lot of people were disappointed by the sound quality, hence why all the mods came about.
 $20 worth of parts? are you actually paying for your op-amps? you can get both the lm4562 and the lme49860 for free from national semiconductor, but the lme49860 is back-ordered right now.


----------



## Fizzycapola

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Random Murderer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Audigy 2 ZS with an NTE power filter, lm4562ma opamps, and electromagnetic shielding_

 

Any chance of sharing an expose on this. I read what you did and you said you figured things out but didn't give enough info for others to bypass the hard guessing stages and copy your hard work. 

 I opened a thread last week dedicated specifically to A2's here:
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/au...t-tips-308791/

 Whilst X-Fi is the latest product, there still seems to be alot of A2 owners, ebay for example sells about 3:1 more A2's than X-Fi that could benefit from an adaption of this guide.


----------



## Random Murderer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Fizzycapola* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Any chance of sharing an expose on this. I read what you did and you said you figured things out but didn't give enough info for others to bypass the hard guessing stages and copy your hard work. 

 I opened a thread last week dedicated specifically to A2's here:
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/au...t-tips-308791/

 Whilst X-Fi is the latest product, there still seems to be alot of A2 owners, ebay for example sells about 3:1 more A2's than X-Fi that could benefit from an adaption of this guide._

 

sure. i have to get some pics for three other people already, and i was planning on making a how-to guide over on techpowerup.


----------



## EBisky

what are some good alternatives to the Blackgate capacitor? Also, if I wanted to find a local shop that sells capacitors and other parts, what should I look for in the phone book? What would the subject be?


----------



## Jame5

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Random Murderer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_yea, a lot of people were disappointed by the sound quality, hence why all the mods came about.
 $20 worth of parts? are you actually paying for your op-amps? you can get both the lm4562 and the lme49860 for free from national semiconductor, but the lme49860 is back-ordered right now._

 

Even using an .edu extension email, Natsem is still charging shipping. "Due to high demand, we unfortunately have to charge shipping and handling" or something to that effect. I can get you the exact quote. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Needless to say, I've got to order two sets (3ea and 1ea) to replace all 4 OpAmps, I'm getting a Blackgate cap, and probably some of the Nechijon (sp, sorry I don't want to look it up right now) to replace the OpAmp caps. I'm not keen on shorting them out, so I figure I'll at least replace them with some better quality ones. So for 17 caps and 4 OpAmps, I figure 20 bucks is a steal.


----------



## sid311

Why hasn't anyone mentioned modding the break out box for the Elite model? This might be a dumb question because I haven't opened mine up and looked at it yet. There has to something in there that can be improved upon, right?

 -sid311


----------



## Hayduke

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sid311* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why hasn't anyone mentioned modding the break out box for the Elite model? This might be a dumb question because I haven't opened mine up and looked at it yet. There has to something in there that can be improved upon, right?

 -sid311_

 

It's mentioned many times in this thread. Search this thread and you will find them. I recall someone did it, but I think the consensus is that it won't help (as much?).


----------



## TobWen

I wonder, if buying a "X-Fi Xtreme Audio" & hotrodding it gives same quality, as hotrodding "X-Fi XtremeGamer" or "X-Fi UAA" or "X-Fi Elite Pro"?
 I think, "Audio" uses the old Audigy-base. XtremeGamer is the cheapest one with 192 kHz D/A, but no S/P-DIF input for me 
 I also wonder, what's "XtremeMusic" and "UAA" ... no information on creative-website.

 XtremeMusic looks like "Elite Pro" without the external gear ... which one should I buy for modification?


----------



## trodas

*X-Fi Fatal1ty mods*

 There are several common mistakes presented in this (and others) threads. One of the most funny is using a known good audio capacitor to filter voltage in digital part of the card (eg. for the main CA20K1 chip). Pictures/links to crazy cap mods - Chitchat - CapsMod Forum - Powered by Discuz!

 Another serious mistake is keeping the known bad Jamicon caps on the card. They are not only audio grade caps, they are also not low ESR caps usable for voltage filtering and on top of that, they are known to fail caps - bad caps in short, see there: Horrible pictures of dead caps - Identifying Bad Capacitors & Related Symptoms - CapsMod Forum - Powered by Discuz!

 Third mistake is to use tantalum caps. 10, 15 years ago this have a sense, as they was small, yet superior in ripple and response. Todays the Kemet caps simply suxx, compared to Panasonic FM ones. But Davmax explained it far better and in great detail there: Understanding ESR and max ripple - Capacitors Modification - CapsMod Forum - Powered by Discuz!

_Of course, feel free to ignore that all and do whatever you want to do_







 If you care slightest bit about the quality of your X-Fi, then you might check this pic I made - it show all caps numbers and voltages on them by 20Mhz scope:





 In picture it looks this way - green are caps that has audio on them with stereo output, WinAMP playing...


 So, the recommended by me caps replacement list goes this way:

  Code:


```
[left]C177 (1.23V) - 220uF 16V Jamicon -> 1000uF 6.3V Samxon GC C16 (0.7V) - 100uF 16V Jamicon -> 470uF 6.3V Samxon GD C46 (5V) - 100uF 16V Jamicon -> 470uF 6.3V Samxon GD C107 (4.7V) - 47uF 16V Jamicon -> 150uF 6.3V Panny FM C186 (5V) - 47uF 16V Jamicon -> 47uF 25V Panny FM C205 (0V) - 47uF 16V Jamicon -> 47uF 25V Panny FM C20 (2.47V) - 22uF 16V Jamicon -> 150uF 6.3V Panny FM C33 (3.3V) - 22uF 16V Jamicon -> 150uF 6.3V Panny FM C56 (-5V) - 22uF 16V Jamicon -> 150uF 6.3V Panny FM C72 (-5V) - 22uF 16V Jamicon -> 150uF 6.3V Panny FM C74 (12V) - 22uF 25V Jamicon -> 68uF 16V Panny FM C75 (-12V) - 22uF 25V Jamicon -> 68uF 16V Panny FM C101 (5V) - 22uF 16V Jamicon -> 150uF 6.3V Panny FM C114 (5V) - 22uF 16V Jamicon -> 150uF 6.3V Panny FM C124 (3.3V) - 22uF 16V Jamicon -> 150uF 6.3V Panny FM C172 (5V) - 22uF 16V Jamicon -> 150uF 6.3V Panny FM C206 (0V) - 22uF 16V Jamicon -> 47uF 25V Panny FM C209 (0V) - 22uF 25V Jamicon -> 47uF 25V Panny FM C27 (5V) - 10uF 16V Jamicon -> 150uF 6.3V Panny FM C43 (8.8V) - 10uF 16V Jamicon -> 100uF 10V Panny FM C91 (5V) - 10uF 16V Jamicon -> 150uF 6.3V Panny FM C108 (2.16V) - 10uF 16V Jamicon -> 150uF 6.3V Panny FM C115 (2.4V) - 10uF 16V Jamicon -> 150uF 6.3V Panny FM C119 (3.3V) - 10uF 16V Jamicon -> 150uF 6.3V Panny FM C123 (2.3V) - 10uF 16V Jamicon -> 150uF 6.3V Panny FM C136 (5V) - 10uF 16V Jamicon -> 150uF 6.3V Panny FM C151 (3.3V) - 10uF 16V Jamicon -> 150uF 6.3V Panny FM C18 (2.4V aud) - 4.7uF 16V Jamicon BIPOLAR -> Black Gate N 4.7uF 50V C19 (0V aud) - 4.7uF 16V Jamicon BIPOLAR -> Black Gate N 4.7uF 50V C21 (2.39 aud) - 4.7uF 16V Jamicon BIPOLAR -> Black Gate N 4.7uF 50V C22 (2.47) - 4.7uF 16V Jamicon BIPOLAR -> Black Gate N 4.7uF 50V C48 (2.26V) - 4.7uF 16V Jamicon BIPOLAR -> Black Gate N 4.7uF 50V C49 (2.26V) - 4.7uF 16V Jamicon BIPOLAR -> Black Gate N 4.7uF 50V C102 (2.4V aud) - 4.7uF 50V Jamicon -> Black Gate C 4.7uF 50V C104 (2.4V aud) - 4.7uF 50V Jamicon -> Black Gate C 4.7uF 50V Remove and short 16x 22uF 16V Jamicon decoupling caps - C23, C50, C76, C77, C28, C55, C85, C83, C61, C32, C62, C26, C67, C36, C34 and C68. It is possible to remove all the marked with green audio caps C18, C19, C21, C22, C48, C49, C102 and C104 if you did not use the AUX IN analog 2 channel CD in and the 10 pins Creative connector, for witch the 6 pcs of the bipolar caps are used to separate the AC3 6 channels signal (5.1). 35 caps total ------------- 1x Samxon GC 1000uF 6.3V (d8) 2x Samxon GD 470uF 6.3V (d6.3) 1x Panny FM 100uF 10V (d5) P12919-ND 4x Panny FM 47uF 25V (d5) P12923-ND 2x Panny FM 68uF 16V (d5) P12921-ND 17x Panny FM 150uF 6.3V (d5) P12917-ND 6x Black Gate N 4.7uF 50V (d5) - d6.3 can fit 2x Black Gate C 4.7uF 50V (d5) - d6.3 can fit[/left]
```


 I already partialy made this recap and I got numerous of improvements, but like I say - who did not want to know, he did not want to know, so


----------



## Random Murderer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *trodas* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There are several common mistakes presented in this (and others) threads. One of the most funny is using a known good audio capacitor to filter voltage in digital part of the card (eg. for the main CA20K1 chip)._

 

honestly, i couldn't disagree more on this point. the reason we use blackgates is not because they are audio quality, but because the distortion and bass roll-off is low, per their specs. the lower quality cap you use, the more phase distortion and attenuation occurs. because of the nature of electrolytics, a high-pass RC filter can "form," thus causing attenuation. phase distortion can badly ruin the low frequency sounds, blending them all together.
 in an ideal situation, we wouldn't need a filter cap, but because dc is required for the circuit to work a cap is used to reduce the dc current so as not to damage audio components.


----------



## seeker010

does anyone have schematics for the breakout box? I want to replace the opamps for the inputs mostly.


----------



## Random Murderer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *seeker010* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_does anyone have schematics for the breakout box? I want to replace the opamps for the inputs mostly._

 

it'll be easier to find datasheets for all of the ic's and figure out which are the opamps that way. go to alldatasheets.com and enter the first set of numbers on each ic.


----------



## seeker010

for the flexijack on the elite pro, is it possible to replace U2 and U5 with LME49860 as well? I already replaced U3 with LME49860

 I'm referring to this picture X-FI-MOD-084b - eSnips, share anything


----------



## bichi

*seeker010,*

_"...for the flexijack on the elite pro (SB0550), is it possible to replace U2 and U5 with LME49860 as well?..."_

 Only if interested in "influencing" *recordings.*
 I say "influencing," because improvements are virtually nil, over stock 5532 opamps.

 More "detectable" changes are from adjusting coupling capacitor pairs C27/C15, (Line-IN -> U3) and C29/C14 (U3 -> U2/U5 differential opamps, feeding AKM ADC)

 Current values, my installation:
 C15/C27: TDK MLCC X7R, SMT 1210, 22uf @ 16vdc (matched to +/- 0.2uf) - (stock: Wincap NP, 10uf @ 16vdc)
 C14/C29: Panasonic FM, 68uf @ 16vdc (matched to +/- 1uf) - (stock: Jamicon 47uf @ 16vdc)
 - above combination performed with accuracy transferring analog from Studer-Revox B77 MkII final mix tapes 

 If hardcore and need to improve low-freq (20~200hz) recording performance:
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/3908953-post1563.html

 Updated SB0550 picture:
X-FI-MOD-109 - eSnips, share anything

 Updated Changes/Descriptions in TXT format:
X-FI-MOD-109 - eSnips, share anything


----------



## Bad_dude

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cotdt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anyway, I reviewed my basic physics and figured out how the ERS Paper worked... and realized that they are WAY overpriced for what they are. You can probably make your own "ERS Paper" by obtaining a sheet of copper mesh and sandwiching it between two sheets of paper. I am sorry I advocated the use of this overpriced product, but it does work.

 btw, I think the ELNA Cerafine sounds amazing too! They are warmer than the Blackgates. BTW, 1000uF is all you need.




_

 

Hi,
 I bought one of those big ELNA big capacitor too but the sound card did not work. Mine is 4700uf, 35V. I used a short cable to solder it to the sound card too. I put back the old capacitor then it works. Any idea why? The short cable used is from the car speaker wire, copper color. I would think it would work.
 I shorted the 22uf caps too and it seems the bass is more pronounce.

 Thanks.


----------



## trodas

*Random Murderer* -  Quote:


 There are several common mistakes presented in this (and others) threads. One of the most funny is using a known good audio capacitor to filter voltage in digital part of the card (eg. for the main CA20K1 chip). 
 

 Quote:


 honestly, i couldn't disagree more on this point. the reason we use blackgates is not because they are audio quality, but because the distortion and bass roll-off is low, per their specs. the lower quality cap you use, the more phase distortion and attenuation occurs. because of the nature of electrolytics, a high-pass RC filter can "form," thus causing attenuation. *phase distortion can badly ruin the low frequency sounds, blending them all together*.
 in an ideal situation, we wouldn't need a filter cap, but because dc is required for the circuit to work a cap is used to reduce the dc current so as not to damage audio components. 
 

OMG, no disrespect, mate, but... did you actually bother to even read what I write? You obviously did not understand it, but that is obvious. Did you even TRY reading it? Or you quickly jump into the "no no no, this is wrong, wrong, wrong" mode, rejecting all arguments?

  Quote:


 *phase distortion can badly ruin the low frequency sounds, blending them all together* 
 

Now please tell me, where in the CA20K1 chip is present a AUDIO in ANALOG form?

 You are in pure digital world there, mate. You should use the best cap, suitable for the TI voltage regulator, check the datasheets there: http://www.ti.com/lit/gpn/tps54352





 Hence using a good known audio cap in pure voltage filtering and for purely digital chip is pure nonsense at least. This was already established long time ago in this thread by many others as well.
 Of course, feel free to reject any artuments at all and believe in your own reality 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I just merely suggesting you to do not make an imbecile of yourself 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Just a suggestion, of course.


*Why not use tantalum caps* - done especially for bitchi 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



http://www.hindawi.com/GetPDF.aspx?d...08827510212341
*Read conclusion about noise in tantalum cap*
 The most important sources of fluctuation consist in regenerative microbreaks, fluctuation of polarisation and mechanical strain. The frequency dependence of noise spectral density in mHz region gives information on slow irreversible processes of tantalum pentoxide crystal-isation and oxide reduction. The self-healing process can improve sample quality due to leak-age current and noise reduction. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Or there:
Low Noise Balanced Microphone Preamp
*I also recommend against the use of tantalum capacitors, and regular readers will notice that I have not suggested them for any project* (although there was one suggestion that you could use them if you wanted to). The only capacitor fault I have ever had to track down with an intermittent short circuit was a tantalum bead type - it was neither fun, nor easy to find 


 So, tantalum caps is a bad idead, alrough they might look as good choice at first and I must admit, I was considered them at first as well, but then I looked more deeply and contacted experts and they all recommended against it. So, draw your own conclusions, dear reader.


*Bad_dude* -  Quote:


 I bought one of those big ELNA big capacitor too but the sound card did not work. Mine is 4700uf, 35V. I used a short cable to solder it to the sound card too. I put back the old capacitor then it works. Any idea why? 
 

Of course. Just right above I linked the pdf datasheed of use voltage regulator. You modified the wrong capacitor and wrongly. The datasheet recommend use a relatively medium-quality low ESR cap.
 If you use anything more serious, you get into bad troubles. The regulator shut down, effectively stoping functionality of the card. It happen for me too, when I for fun used a 3300uF 10V Samxon RS cap. Now I use 1000uF 6.3V Samxon GC cap and all works well.
 Another good choice will be a Panasonic FM cap, somewhere from 470uF to 1200uF. Keep the voltage as low, as you get. Actuall voltage on the cap is 1.23V on my Fatal1ty.

 The mod with the crazy big Ceraphine cap worked for the user cotdt, because he used a 10 000uF 63V cap and using a 63V cap on 1.2V will give only a very small fraction of it's specs, so the voltage regulator made it.
 You used 35V Ceraphine cap - hence much more of your cap specs are utilized - and that shut down the voltage regulator effectively.

 Please note that also using very high spec cap, like Sanyo Os-con SEPC polymer (I used 820uF 2,5V one) is not ideal. Once again, a good (Jamicon is BAD CAP), but relatively mediocre cap is recommended. Os-con cause osclations in voltage, as bitchi measured well on scope.

  Quote:


 I shorted the 22uf caps too and it seems the bass is more pronounce. 
 

Of course. Last thing you want between yourself and your audio is known BAD Jamicon cap. Jamicons are not audio caps. Jamicons are no low ESR caps for voltage filering. Jamicons are known to fail miserably, Jamicons are not good for anything. They are a known bad caps, and I cannot say that more urgently.

 And if you read my text above, you will know that user cotdt THINK he heard anything better, but is can't, as he just messed up with DIGITAL PART of the card, where things it either work, or not. Cannot be imporved by using good, quality audio caps.
 This is laughable at best.
 Check my recommendations.

 And replace the opamps. They clearly help also. I replaced all 4 of them + added much better caps fol voltage filtering to them = whole new level of sound reproduction.
 It might take you even a while to adjust yourself to how much "sharper" and more precise are now the sounds that are supposed to be like that, actually sound. For the first time, of course 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 PS: I think I made myself, my X-Fi mods and intentions clear in this thread there: X-Fi sound bugs? I think I have a solution. - Bad Caps Hardware Discovery & Solution - CapsMod Forum - Powered by Discuz!


----------



## Random Murderer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *trodas* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*tons of info*_

 

well, i found something out about the power filter caps: creative has replaced the 220µf 16v jamicrap with a 220µf 16v g-luxon, if it makes a difference. the cap is black with gold print, so it *looks* like a panny or nichicon hz.


----------



## CyberTheo

Neither Jami nor G-Luxon is high quality stuff. I would spend a dime or so more for Nichicon or Panasonic.


----------



## Tez

Hey guys, great work here. I too would like to mod my x-fi with an opamp and a blackgate but dont trust myself with a soldering iron. Is there anyone in the UK who has done the mod and are confident enough to do it again? I can get the necessary parts, pay shipping and a fee if necessary.

 Please PM me if you can help!

 Cheers


----------



## trodas

*Random Murderer* - of course it makes difference. G-Luxon is total and utter crap, but before it start dying (witch is somewhat rapid process) it have like 2x better specs. Hence the card work well for a bit longer, perhaps... Truth is - this is also a bad cap and almost the worsest one EVER. One G-Luxon exploded close to my face - I was not harmed, but I lost my hearing partly for some time, so... Do NOT go anywhere near them. I'm not kidding.
 Just check these pictures:
Horrible pictures of dead caps - Identifying Bad Capacitors & Related Symptoms - CapsMod Forum - Powered by Discuz!
 ...and no, I do NOT making this stuff out.


*CyberTheo* - exactly. Neither of them belong anywhere near usefull hardware. Customers have been cheated once again badly...


*Tez* - sorry, Czech republic there, a bit farer from you that you might like... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But where you get your Black Gate caps anyway and witch ones? I have my eye on Black Gate N caps, 4.7uF 50V d5 for the 8 remaining audio caps on my X-Fi


----------



## eboy2003

I used Panny FM in my X-Fi XtremeMusic SB0460 mod and initially OSCON and later tantalum as power decoupling caps in Elite SB0550 mod. I have a ESR meter and I measured the ESR of Panny FC/FM 10uf, 22uf, 47uf/25v caps vs. Kemet or Sprague tant. The tant ones actually have better ESR for above values. You need to use good name brand tant caps. I tested a few no name tant caps for the same value, and some of them have ESR 1.2-2.0ohm, while the Kemet and Sprague have around 0.2 - 0.5ohm. 

 For decoupling, tant is still a pretty good choice, but more expensive. And tant has far less leakage current comparing to regular electrolytic and OSCON caps. If you check some LDO regulator datasheet like this one, manufacture actually recommend 0.1-1ohm output cap ESR as stable region.

 The OSCON makes the sound quite stiff, I think it's mainly because of its extremely low ESR and very high ripple current. Also with all OSCON decoupled, my RMAA noise level is actually 2db higher comparing to using tant. I believe the ultra-low ESR actually make the regulator (even 78M05) less stable. It needs to be in series with a small value resistor when OSCON is used. 

 Of course, tant is not for everything. When used as coupling cap, they make the high weaker and not as transparent. Its capacitance to frequency is not linear.

 Caps are used for fine tune the sound. Recap is an *ART* work, not mechanical work.

 My current SB0550:
 DAC opamp U7: LME49720 metal can w/ SOIC-DIP adapter, 2 x 0.1uf MLCC + 2 x 10uf tant decoupling
 ADC opamp U3, U2, U5: LME49860
 all tant power decoupling
 DAC coupling: 4x22uf MLCC
 ADC coupling: 22uf MLCC + 68uf tant
 +/-12V, +5V power filter: FM 470uf/16v
 DSP power filter: FC 1000uf/6.3v 
 DAC power filter: FM 100uf/25v
 +5V regulator: replaced onboard ua78M05 to LM317T w/ 10uf Cadj


----------



## Random Murderer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *eboy2003* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Caps are used for fine tune the sound. Recap is an *art* work, not mechanical work._

 

agreed, and just like any art form, perfection is a matter of opinion.


----------



## Tez

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *trodas* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
*Tez* - sorry, Czech republic there, a bit farer from you that you might like... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But where you get your Black Gate caps anyway and witch ones? I have my eye on Black Gate N caps, 4.7uF 50V d5 for the 8 remaining audio caps on my X-Fi 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I would be willing to ship to the Czech Republic, please get back to me if you are willing to do this mod for me. In terms of the Blackgates, I just want to use a 1000uF 16v for the main power cap.

 In terms of where to get them in the UK ive found: 

The Hificollective shop

 They do not stock any 4.7uF rated ones though


----------



## PianistOne111

Has anyone tried bypassing the opamps on the SB0460? I read that someone did that to the Meridian and noted good results while maintaining adequate output levels.


----------



## Random Murderer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PianistOne111* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Has anyone tried bypassing the opamps on the SB0460? I read that someone did that to the Meridian and noted good results while maintaining adequate output levels._

 

on the sb0460, you don't need to bypass them, just remove them. you'll still get sound, just a bit quiet for my taste, though it doesn't matter if you'll be using speakers with a built-in amp.


----------



## Kuze

I did try this mod and failed at the first attempt, send it in for RMA about a week plus, got it back this morning, was a bit surprise cause i thought it would have been void, but i've done this before with many other products, void the warranty and still sending it in for RMA with successes.

 Anyways if there's anyone who will to mod my Xfi Fatal1ty gamer for a fee, let me know, or on second thought i might just sell it here on Head-fi and upgrade to a Prelude.


----------



## learntheblues

After doing this mod successfully on the main channels of my X-Fi XtremeMusic I decided to replace the mic channel with the last of the two LM4562's I had bought. 

 I installed the opamp & tested it out but had poor sound. On closer inspection it looked like the contact points weren't soldered that good so I removed it. In removing it I think I may have put to much heat into the opamp because when I soldered it on for the second time the appearance of the solder job looked much better but I had no sound. I plan on buying a replacement when I can track one down.

 Really my question is should I get sound with no opamp on the mic channel. Because I don't which didn't surprise me but after reading the comments on "bypassing the opamps" it got me thinking that maybe I should still get sound even without an opamp.

 Just a little edit to my question - when I say "should I get sound" I mean on the main channel. Because I don't, I have no sound at all. My mate said because the circuit is broken it needs an opamp to complete that circuit.

 I hope I haven't fried my card getting that opamp off.


----------



## Bad_dude

Which capacitor is better, Nichicon vs. Sanyo?
 I have the Nichicon 1500uF 10V, vs. Sanyo 1500uF 6.3V. There's no other marking to dictate the class of capacitor.


----------



## Random Murderer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bad_dude* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Which capacitor is better, Nichicon vs. Sanyo?
 I have the Nichicon 1500uF 10V, vs. Sanyo 1500uF 6.3V. There's no other marking to dictate the class of capacitor._

 

Nichicon.


----------



## Bad_dude

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Random Murderer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Nichicon._

 

I just got some more Nichicon capacitors. But these are 1000uF, 25V, but the temp is only up to 85C where the others one before are up to 105C. Which one is better? The 85C ones are almost twice as big in physical size than the 105C ones. I guess the higher voltage capacity is what dictates the size.

 I don't want to keep changing the capacitors.


----------



## trodas

The question is
 - for what the capacitor is used (I presume for C177 position)
 - what type of Nichicon and what type of Sanyo you poses

 105°C is desirable, 85°C aren't exactly meant for computers anyway. And any good capacitor is better that known bad one - Jamicon. What are the size of the caps in uF anyway?


----------



## CountChoculaBot

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2304/...9c916f69_o.jpg

 Where can I buy a DIP8 to SO8 adapter like this? I found one on Brown Dog but it's rather awkward.
Single-to-Dual Op-Amp Adapter - SO8 to SO8 version (p/n 031101A) - 031101A


----------



## n00bler

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *CountChoculaBot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_...Where can I buy a DIP8 to SO8 adapter like this? I found one on Brown Dog but it's rather awkward.
Single-to-Dual Op-Amp Adapter - SO8 to SO8 version (p/n 031101A) - 031101A_

 

If you're not [H]ard, you're SOL (those smt pads are fragile, ghetto rig a dip8, and you'll tear 'em off with one good whack), however if you're daring, just get ic dip sockets(instead of potentially destroying your dip8 op-amp), bend the legs to fit your so8 mount, and solder away! fleebay linky, I also got a boatload from hongkong for cheap...

 btw, the link you provided is for adapting 2 single so8 op-amps for a dual so8 mount.


----------



## Random Murderer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *n00bler* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_btw, the link you provided is for adapting 2 single so8 op-amps for a dual so8 mount._

 

the same board doubles as a dip8 dual opamp to so8 dual opamp converter.


----------



## n00bler

-sorry, please delete, double post-


----------



## n00bler

Right you are sir, I jumped the gun. The page also has a linky on it to one where you can choose whether or not to have a dip socket installed (link). btw, if you take a look back a few pages in this thread, there are some examples of homemade adapters as well.


----------



## NumpXP

i've stability problem with my hotrodded xfi. it makes my windows hang. I think there are 3 possibilities of the problem, sorted by what I really hope it to be:

 1. I'm using nichicon 2200uf 35V from radioshack and the soldering is not neat.

 2. my opamp might have contacted feet or bad soldering

 3. my mobo pci slot - as i found small knocking such as plugin/unpluging a jack sometimes hangs my windows. 

 any advice/suggestion?


----------



## Random Murderer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NumpXP* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i've stability problem with my hotrodded xfi. it makes my windows hang. I think there are 3 possibilities of the problem, sorted by what I really hope it to be:

 1. I'm using nichicon 2200uf 35V from radioshack and the soldering is not neat.

 2. my opamp might have contacted feet or bad soldering

 3. my mobo pci slot - as i found small knocking such as plugin/unpluging a jack sometimes hangs my windows. 

 any advice/suggestion?_

 

in order from most likely to least likely, my suggestions:
 1) windows version (vista hates these cards)
 2) mobo
 3) core of card heating up


----------



## trodas

*NumpXP* - use smaller capacitor. This one cause your voltage regulator to shut down sometimes, hence the freezes.

  Quote:


 1. I'm using nichicon 2200uf 35V from radioshack and the soldering is not neat. 
 

This is culprit. I use 1000uF Samxon GC from Big Pope: Capacitor database
 For quick easy fix use Panny FM 470uF from Digi-key. If they had a 6.3V version, take it. I used once 16V version and fine.


  Quote:


 2. my opamp might have contacted feet or bad soldering 
 

Your music will go mute sometimes/there will be distorted bases and so on, depends on heating up. NEVER OS freezes. Hence - not this case.


  Quote:


 3. my mobo pci slot - as i found small knocking such as plugin/unpluging a jack sometimes hangs my windows. 
 

This is probably again related to the stuuuupid oversized cap. What a .... idea 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 And people still seems to copy that, lol


----------



## Random Murderer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *trodas* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*NumpXP* - use smaller capacitor. This one cause your voltage regulator to shut down sometimes, hence the freezes.



 This is culprit. I use 1000uF Samxon GC from Big Pope: Capacitor database
 For quick easy fix use Panny FM 470uF from Digi-key. If they had a 6.3V version, take it. I used once 16V version and fine.




 Your music will go mute sometimes/there will be distorted bases and so on, depends on heating up. NEVER OS freezes. Hence - not this case.




 This is probably again related to the stuuuupid oversized cap. What a .... idea 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 And people still seems to copy that, lol 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

eh, i used a 3300µf 50v nichicon for a while with no problems.


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *eboy2003* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Caps are used for fine tune the sound. Recap is an *ART* work, not mechanical work._

 

Baaah!
 - its ENGINEERING, which IS an art! LOL!

 What are you doing now, going for physics degree and practicing electrostatic field theory?
 - should meet up soon, have done additional SIMs and practicals, resulting in 150nf bypass for U7...
 - also have been playing with AM Sandman effect/design for a low-level preamp.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PianistOne111* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Has anyone tried bypassing the opamps on the SB0460? I read that someone did that to the Meridian and noted good results while maintaining adequate output levels._

 

Most DAC's require a 2-pole, low-pass filter, (Butterworth, Bessel, etc.) to remove/reduce out-of-band noise, delta-sigma common-mode errors, interface differential DAC output to single output, set gain and provide impedance matching. These are the basic function(s) of the opamp(s) on the SB0460 and SB0550. (and many other soundcards) They also provide features like mute, where opamp's added drive and buffer function prevents excessive DAC output port loading. 

 Although I haven't personally tried it, it's not something I would consider, unless the driven device, (amplifier) input characteristics are intimately known. Same applies to headphones, due to their wide impedances and response, depending on make/model.

 REFs:
 Analog-to-Digital Signal Conversion Intro Basics:
http://cobweb.ecn.purdue.edu/~dsml/e...to_Digital.pdf

 Cirrus Logic AN048 App Note: "Design Notes for 2-pole Filter with Differential Input"
http://apex.cirrus.com/en/pubs/appNote/AN048Rev2.pdf

 Cirrus Logic CS4382 Datasheet:
 page 27, section 5.4, Analog Output Filtering
 page 38, Figure 42, Recommended Output Filter
http://apex.cirrus.com/en/pubs/proDa...S4382A_PP2.pdf

 Cirrus Logic CS4382 Evaluation Board:
 page 4, Analog Output Filter
 page 12, Figure 8
http://apex.cirrus.com/en/pubs/rdDat...B4382A_DB2.pdf


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *CountChoculaBot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_"...Where can I buy a DIP8 to SO8 adapter like this?..."_

 

Judging from post history, eboy2003 and I are the only ones who have installed SO8 sockets on X-FI's.
 - showed him a few months ago, how to do it and with which parts.
 - lucky for us, local surplus supply house (cheap) had the correct parts, requiring cutting, bending, etc.
 - ask him on difficulty of part modification, ease of installation and versitility.
 - requires good to excellent soldering and mechanical skills.

 Pictures, Manufacturer/Digikey PN's, of socket mod:
X-FI-MOD-032b - eSnips, share anything
X-FI-MOD-033d - eSnips, share anything
X-FI-MOD-116-U7-C60C62 - eSnips, share anything

 This Brown Dog DIP to SO8 would work, assuming:
 - SO8 socket(s) installed on SB0460, SB0550 or opamp position(s).
 - "tallness" of the adapter will not interfere with adjacent PC card.
DIP8 to SO8 Adapter (p/n 031101B) - 031101B


----------



## ashy79

hi... anyone here using 25V cap for the main power filtering? or can confirm it will be ok?


----------



## Apocalypsee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ashy79* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_hi... anyone here using 25V cap for the main power filtering? or can confirm it will be ok?_

 

As long as the voltage is higher it should be OK. The minimum is AFAIK is around 1.XXV, since I sees someone uses 2.5V


----------



## ashy79

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Apocalypsee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_As long as the voltage is higher it should be OK. The minimum is AFAIK is around 1.XXV, since I sees someone uses 2.5V_

 

wokeh thx for ya input


----------



## jujulio

sry if it was answered before...what if i use a Xmod from creative rather than modding the card regarding audio quality?


----------



## cotdt

whoa i just got back into the community and i don't have time to read all 165 pages, but if anyone has new ideas on modding this soundcard (or modding soundcards in general) let me know (PM me) so that I can update the guide. i do have some quite radical ideas on modding this card but haven't got the chance to try them yet.


----------



## Random Murderer

which do you guys think would sound better: an x-fi xtreme music with lm4562 opamps, no decoupling caps, and a panny fm filter cap or an audigy 2 zs with lm4562 opamps and a panny fm filter cap? my next door neighbor just bought a new sound card and handed me his x-fi that i hotrodded for him...


----------



## NumpXP

i'm gonna build an aliendac for my laptop. Is it better than hotrodded xfi? I really like how my xfi sounds right now. so if aliendac can perform the same, it would be a great motivation for me to build one. anyone had listen to both?


----------



## Apocalypsee

I might buy an X-Fi XtremeMusic soon, but I want some advice on modding, this is what I plan: 

 1) Bypass 4 decoupling caps
 2) Use 1000uF 6.3V Rubycon MBZ on the DSP power caps (or should I use higher ESR caps? Like KZG caps found on motherboard PWM?)
 3) Use LME49720 opamp (but I want to try no opamp first)
 4) Use 680uF 6.3V Sanyo OS-CON on opamp +5VDC and -5VDC

 Is what I plan is good? Or is there anything else I should do to improve playback?

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Random Murderer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_which do you guys think would sound better: an x-fi xtreme music with lm4562 opamps, no decoupling caps, and a panny fm filter cap or an audigy 2 zs with lm4562 opamps and a panny fm filter cap? my next door neighbor just bought a new sound card and handed me his x-fi that i hotrodded for him..._

 

I think X-Fi might sounds better because of the resampling issue on Audigy


----------



## Random Murderer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Apocalypsee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I might buy an X-Fi XtremeMusic soon, but I want some advice on modding, this is what I plan: 

 1) Bypass 4 decoupling caps
 2) Use 1000uF 6.3V Rubycon MBZ on the DSP power caps (or should I use higher ESR caps? Like KZG caps found on motherboard PWM?)
 3) Use LME49720 opamp (but I want to try no opamp first)
 4) Use 680uF 6.3V Sanyo OS-CON on opamp +5VDC and -5VDC

 Is what I plan is good? Or is there anything else I should do to improve playback?_

 

you could always do a complete recap.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Apocalypsee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think X-Fi might sounds better because of the resampling issue on Audigy_

 

my audigy 2 has never had any problems...


----------



## Apocalypsee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Random Murderer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_you could always do a complete recap.


 my audigy 2 has never had any problems..._

 

I don't think that would be beneficial financially to recap the whole cap. I'd better buy a better card then

 All EMU10K1 and 10K2 (Live! and Audigy) have this issue, some people don't notice this. Try to resample to 48kHz (usng high quality resampler like SRC) and see whether you can hear any difference or not


----------



## tirza

Hii.. my first post here.. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Im interested to try this X-fi mod.. but I only have a laptop, so I wonder if the X-fi Xtreme Audio Notebook ( Sound Blaster X-Fi Xtreme Audio Notebook - Xtreme Fidelity sound at home or on the go ) Can be modded?

 Please enlighten me.. Thankss


----------



## Random Murderer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tirza* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hii.. my first post here.. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Im interested to try this X-fi mod.. but I only have a laptop, so I wonder if the X-fi Xtreme Audio Notebook ( Sound Blaster X-Fi Xtreme Audio Notebook - Xtreme Fidelity sound at home or on the go ) Can be modded?

 Please enlighten me.. Thankss_

 

maybe. you'll need to open it up and get some high res shots of the circuit card assembly on both sides for us.


----------



## tirza

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Random Murderer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_maybe. you'll need to open it up and get some high res shots of the circuit card assembly on both sides for us._

 

I don't have the card yet.. I was thinking, if it can be modded then I will try it..


----------



## nomad0677

Looking to do opamp replacement on my Livebay and have searched this thread and cannot find the info I need. What I am looking for is what opamps are for the headphone output and RCA input. 

 Here is a photo of my Livebay PCB. 






 Thanks in advance!!!


----------



## Random Murderer

can you give me the numbers off of those ic's?


----------



## nomad0677

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Random Murderer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 can you give me the numbers off of those ic's?_

 


 From top to bottom they are

 #1. 33078
 Z512


 #2. 75179B
 53M
 AV3X

 #3. 4556A
 F013C

 LMK if any more information is helpful and thanks Random Murderer


----------



## ReTiCuLe

Does anyone have the solder points for "wires" since I ripped off just about every pad ? I should of used snippers originally, i couldn't find them. 

*I bought an X-fi XtremeGamer Fata1ity Professional Series, it's SB0460 just like my Xtreme Music, the Ram layout is differen't though than the FPS version, is this modable as well? I found my clippers for once so I won't break this one LOL.*

 I need the points for the SB0460 Xtreme Music card for the 2.1 oAMP. The one that's at the start of this thread.

 The bottom row, I have no clue where the missing solder pads lead to since it's ripped off the board along with another 5-6.

 Thanks in advance,
 Ret


 A pic of the terrible soldering job. It's almost like when i first started soldering years ago. I'm ashamed.


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ReTiCuLe* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does anyone have the solder points for "wires" since I ripped off just about every pad ? I should of used snippers originally, i couldn't find them. "... it's SB0460 just like my Xtreme Music..." I need the points for the SB0460 Xtreme Music card...."_

 


 bummer....

 Picture of signal lines for U2 opamp, SB0460:
X-FI-MOD-099c - eSnips, share anything

 Pin #4 (-V) and pin #8 (+V) power pins can be connected to #4 and #8 of U3 opamp, below U2 (broken one)

 Good Luck!


----------



## ReTiCuLe

Thanks bichi.

 I bought the X-fi XtremeGamer Fata1ity Pro. Should I mod this instead with the oAMP? I'd be starting fresh. now if i could find smaller clippers than the ones I currently have.

 Which clippers would you recommend? Also would that card work?

 Do you have MSN,AIM or something I may contact you at Bichi?


----------



## Random Murderer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ReTiCuLe* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks bichi.

 I bought the X-fi XtremeGamer Fata1ity Pro. Should I mod this instead with the oAMP? I'd be starting fresh. now if i could find smaller clippers than the ones I currently have.

 Which clippers would you recommend? Also would that card work?

 Do you have MSN,AIM or something I may contact you at Bichi?_

 

you dont need clippers, i used a utility knife to cut through the legs where they connect to the opamp. i cut one side(four legs) and then lifted the opamp and bent it back and forth until it snapped off. then i used a soldering iron to heat up the individual pads and remove the legs one at a time.

 and as far as the cards go, they're both good. mod whichever one you like. you should at least try to fix the other card, though...


----------



## Random Murderer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nomad0677* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_From top to bottom they are

 #1. 33078
 Z512


 #2. 75179B
 53M
 AV3X

 #3. 4556A
 F013C

 LMK if any more information is helpful and thanks Random Murderer 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

oops, i didn't even notice you replied until now.
 lol, sorry about that.
 when i wake up later, i'll start working on that for ya.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 EDIT: couldn't wait.
 #1 and #3 are dual opamps with the most common pinout for such chips, the same pinout as the opamps used on our soundcards. the opamps you should replace them with is a matter of personal preference. burr-brown(now texas instruments) opamps provide a milky, laid back sound, analog devices opamps provide a smooth, warm sound, and national semiconductor opamps provide a tight, responsive sound. keep in mind, there are other manufacturers as well. i suggest doing what i did: purchase a couple(or in my case, a bunch) of different opamps and find which is right for you.
 #2 is a differential driver and receiver pair. simply put, this is an opamp for balanced signals. this does not have the same pinout as an opamp and must be replaced with the same type of chip. i can try to find a better chip to replace it with, but i must admit, i have very little experience with balanced signals.
 EDIT2: apparently texas instruments holds the patent on _differential_ driver and receiver pairs, because they are the only ones that manufacture them. the one on the board you have is the little brother(sister?) to the best one you can buy. the only difference between the two is a single digit in the product number, and the "better" chip is the exact same as the one you have as far as i can tell.


----------



## ReTiCuLe

yeah i'm going to do that first. I'm going to order some more samples. I'm down to my last one :|. 

 from the photo I linked does it look repairable ?

 The solder spash next to pin 1 I can't seem to get that off the board with de-solder braid. It's not touching the Pin 1 though or the cap, however I know there was a small gold plated hole underneath of the splash, that disappeared as well as lettering C something.


----------



## Random Murderer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ReTiCuLe* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_yeah i'm going to do that first. I'm going to order some more samples. I'm down to my last one :|. 

 from the photo I linked does it look repairable ?

 The solder spash next to pin 1 I can't seem to get that off the board with de-solder braid. It's not touching the Pin 1 though or the cap, however I know there was a small gold plated hole underneath of the splash, that disappeared as well as lettering C something._

 

that resistor next to the hole is connected to pin 1 anyway.
 the digits covered up are "C78".
 keep in mind, national semiconductor isn't the only manufacturer of opamps, and opamps are pretty cheap(i call 'em jellybean chips). you can get an opamp from digi-key for about $1 a pop.


----------



## nomad0677

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Random Murderer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_oops, i didn't even notice you replied until now.
 lol, sorry about that.
*when i wake up later, i'll start working on that for ya.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


*

*EDIT: couldn't wait.*
 #1 and #3 are dual opamps with the most common pinout for such chips, the same pinout as the opamps used on our soundcards. the opamps you should replace them with is a matter of personal preference. burr-brown(now texas instruments) opamps provide a milky, laid back sound, analog devices opamps provide a smooth, warm sound, and national semiconductor opamps provide a tight, responsive sound. keep in mind, there are other manufacturers as well. i suggest doing what i did: purchase a couple(or in my case, a bunch) of different opamps and find which is right for you.
 #2 is a differential driver and receiver pair. simply put, this is an opamp for balanced signals. this does not have the same pinout as an opamp and must be replaced with the same type of chip. i can try to find a better chip to replace it with, but i must admit, i have very little experience with balanced signals.
 EDIT2: apparently texas instruments holds the patent on differential driver and receiver pairs, because they are the only ones that manufacture them. the one on the board you have is the little brother(sister?) to the best one you can buy. the only difference between the two is a single digit in the product number, and the "better" chip is the exact same as the one you have as far as i can tell._

 

Lol, sacrificing sleep to help me!! Thats awesome!

 I had a feeling that #3 was for headphone as the same IC was used on the L/R channel on the X-Fi card.

 So would 1 and 3 be the opamps for Headphone and RCA? Those are the opamps I am seeking to replace. I have replaced the opamps on all output channels on the actual X-Fi with LM4562's and replaced power caps on the X-Fi and the LiveBay with 16v 2200uf Blackgate caps, and all I have left to do is the headphone and RCA's on the Livebay.

 Thanks again for your help RM. You guys that have put so much of your knowledge and time into this thread should be commended.


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nomad0677* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_From top to bottom they are
 #1. 33078
 Z512

 #2. 75179B
 53M
 AV3X

 #3. 4556A
 F013C_

 

#1. 33087:
 MC33078
 - originally made by Motorola, division sold to ON Semiconductor
 - Creative usually uses this opamp for MIC-IN
 - datasheet: http://www.onsemi.com/pub_link/Collateral/MC33078-D.PDF

 #2. 75179B:
 SN75179BP
 - Texas Instruments, Differential Driver/ Receiver Pair, balanced transmissions
 - datasheet: http://www.ti.com/lit/gpn/sn75179b

 #3. 4556A:
 NJM4556A
 - New Japan Radio, high-gain, high-output opamp, usually used for headphone drive capability
 - datasheet: http://semicon.njr.co.jp/njr/hp/file...o?_mediaId=147


----------



## Kuze

Hey people i am begging for a Opamp and capacitor just one single one, i'll pay a small change for it via paypal if i have to and you just drop it in the mail box, if anyone will be so kind to help me out i would really appreciate it., PM me.


----------



## ReTiCuLe

Thanks Random & Bichi. Now that all my questions are answered I'm going to give the old card a whirl later on, after work.

 Btw, how fragile are the oAMPs to static electricity? I've never wore a wrist band soldering psx's, xbox's back in the day and actually had something fail on me.


----------



## nomad0677

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bichi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_#1. 33087:
 MC33078
 - originally made by Motorola, division sold to ON Semiconductor
 - Creative usually uses this opamp for MIC-IN
 - datasheet: http://www.onsemi.com/pub_link/Collateral/MC33078-D.PDF

 #2. 75179B:
 SN75179BP
 - Texas Instruments, Differential Driver/ Receiver Pair, balanced transmissions
 - datasheet: http://www.ti.com/lit/gpn/sn75179b

 #3. 4556A:
 NJM4556A
 - New Japan Radio, high-gain, high-output opamp, usually used for headphone drive capability
 - datasheet: http://semicon.njr.co.jp/njr/hp/file...o?_mediaId=147_

 

Thanks bichi. I assume that #3 is my headphone opamp and LM4562 would be a good replacement for that?

 And which one of the remaining mystery IC's is for RCA?







 I will be back with IC numbers in a moment.






 Edit: IC numbers on both IC's are the same 

 33078
 Z512


----------



## Random Murderer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ReTiCuLe* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks Random & Bichi. Now that all my questions are answered I'm going to give the old card a whirl later on, after work.

 Btw, how fragile are the oAMPs to static electricity? I've never wore a wrist band soldering psx's, xbox's back in the day and actually had something fail on me._

 

just touch your computer chassis or a cold water pipe before handling them.


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nomad0677* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_"...Thanks bichi. I assume that #3 is my headphone opamp and LM4562 would be a good replacement for that?..."_

 

Can't speak from personal experience, I don't have your bay-device and don't regularly listen with X-FI, direct to headphones.

 - some headphone users have replaced 4556A's with LM4562/49720 and had no problems, while others complain about low-levels.
 - depends on headphone impedance and SPL sensitivity. (note: 4556A's output drive current is spec'ed at about 70ma and LM4562/49720 is 26ma)
 - *eboy2003* is a headphone user, using an external tube amp and has experimented with different opamps. He might have a reliable opinion on LM4562/49720 direct to headphones. 

 National Semi LM4562 Datasheet:
http://www.national.com/ds.cgi/LM/LM4562.pdf


----------



## Random Murderer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bichi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Can't speak from personal experience, I don't have your bay-device and don't regularly listen with X-FI, direct to headphones.

 - some headphone users have replaced 4556A's with LM4562/49720 and had no problems, while others complain about low-levels.
 - depends on headphone impedance and SPL sensitivity. (note: 4556A's output drive current is spec'ed at about 70ma and LM4562/49720 is 26ma)
 - *eboy2003* is a headphone user, using an external tube amp and has experimented with different opamps. He might have a reliable opinion on LM4562/49720 direct to headphones. 

 National Semi LM4562 Datasheet:
http://www.national.com/ds.cgi/LM/LM4562.pdf_

 

if you're using high-end headphones you should use an amp anyway.
 i'm only using sr80's and i still don't plug them directly into my sound card.


----------



## ReTiCuLe

I'm interested to know which oAMP is best for Headphone's as well.

 Currently using Audio Technica ATH-A700's most comfortable can's I've ever owned while sounding great 8).


----------



## ReTiCuLe

Sigh. Only sound in the Left ear once again.

 Could it be Vista to cause only sound in the left ear? I read somewhere this mod isn't vista friendly a while ago.


----------



## nomad0677

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ReTiCuLe* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sigh. Only sound in the Left ear once again.

 Could it be Vista to cause only sound in the left ear? I read somewhere this mod isn't vista friendly a while ago._

 


 I have had no Vista issues with the mod on 4 cards now.


----------



## Random Murderer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ReTiCuLe* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sigh. Only sound in the Left ear once again.

 Could it be Vista to cause only sound in the left ear? I read somewhere this mod isn't vista friendly a while ago._

 

my guess is that there's a severed trace around the opamp. that happened to me...


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ReTiCuLe* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_"...I'm interested to know which oAMP is best for Headphone's as well..."_

 

And for others pondering the same question...
 - there are no "one answer fits all" and also subjective, ie., personal taste
 - technicals need to be considered (headphone impedance, SPL (sound pressure level @ voltage), opamp drive capability, etc.)
 - common trade off is better sonic performance vs. headphone "loudness/level" (solved with external headphone amp) 

 Basic opamp stuff with part numbers, opinions and test results:

 Notes on Audio Op-Amps - (headphone centric)
Notes on Audio Op-Amps

 D.Self: Designing with Opamps
Opamp Design

 D. Self: Heavy Loads (headphones)
Opamp Design


----------



## eboy2003

I'm building a dual AD1955 external DAC w/ I2S support. Unfortunately AD1955 only supports 256fs, 512fs, 768fs, and need to change the settings via MCU. I plan to mod my SB0550 to direct output I2S signal via RS422 interface. Does anyone know SB0550 in bit-perfect mode use 256fs or 384fs for 16bit 44.1K CD audio?

 My current half-done 1955pro dac, it supports balance out, but i will only set up for unbalanced rca output. Use 4 opa627 for I/V, 2 LME49710 TO-99 for LPF.


----------



## eboy2003

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bichi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_- *eboy2003* is a headphone user, using an external tube amp and has experimented with different opamps. He might have a reliable opinion on LM4562/49720 direct to headphones. _

 

LM4562/49720/49870 can drive headphone reasonably well unless you are using high impedance ones like hd-650. To my ear, when using hd-597 on SB0550 with LME49720 TO-99, the sound is a little bit too analytical, and the highs are harsh in some records. Driving through tube amp give much warm, musical sound, but I loose a little bit dynamics.


----------



## ReTiCuLe

I haven't found any broken traces. What looks wrong? Nothing is crossing over or touching with the meter.
 This is the old card btw. the Xtreme Music. 

 Bichi perhaps if I solder where the oAMP legs are right now on the board and put them to the corisponding caps instead that would help? Also do I need to short out the capacitors? The problem is the sound in the Right Channel is very dim, you pretty much can't hear it.

 I decided to re-solder all the oAMP connections well, that didn't help either lol.


 If I can't get this working, anyone have confidence in repairing it? I would of course pay you for your services.


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ReTiCuLe* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_"...Bichi perhaps if I solder where the oAMP legs are right now on the board and put them to the corisponding caps instead that would help? Also do I need to short out the capacitors? The problem is the sound in the Right Channel is very dim, you pretty much can't hear it..."_

 

- has to be a connection issue of some sort
 - bad solder joint
 - solder bridged under chip
 - pad/trace short under chip
 - SMT component moved (open or shorted) where you soldered wires
 - cannot tell from your picture (not near enough detail)


----------



## bichi

*Hardcore SB0550 Modders/AudioPhools* Connecting External, Hi-Power, wide-band, Analog Amplifiers

 - depends on PC power-supply, motherboard PWM/filtering, ground quality, etc. 
 - predominant 250khz, 125~350khz noise spectra present, +12, +5, +3.3 rails to chassis ground (~91avg mVrms)
 - results in 250khz, ~12avg mVrms, switching noise, SB0550, Line-Out

 Measurement:
 - Fluke 97, battery, therefore, no ground-noise issues
 - SB0550, Line-Out, LME49720, 1khz sine @ 250mVrms, 47kohm load
 - ~25mVpp noise @ 250khz

 External Amplifier: LM3886 GainClone
 - fast calc: gain: 25, therefore, 25mVpp noise x 25 = 625mV, ~0.07w @ 6ohmavg
 - actual: 800mVpp, 152mVrms

 Quick Solution:
 - 250khz classic, passive Twin-T notch filter (predesign work for possible active LTC1059 notch)
 - fc = 1 / (2 pi R C)
 - problem: -3db fc point must not affect 20khz
 - goal: Q of 6~10, to effectively kill 250khz noise
 - must use NPO/COG capacitors, 1% resistors, low-noise, for stability and Q quality

 Subjective:
 - subject to debate, since some will argue 250khz is above audio range and is of no consequence
 - secondly, others will argue reducing bandwidth above 20khz reduces "sound quality"
 - appears to have measurable harmonic effects in audio band
 - sounds good, LM3886 gainclone feeding B&O BeoVox MC120.2 speakers, Sennheiser HD-414SL and HD-414 Classics (headphones not primary playback) 


*REFS:*
 Scope, 250khz Noise, SB0550 Line-Out:
026-LM3886-SB0550-1kz-250khz-Noise-1200 - eSnips, share anything

 Scope Results, LM3886 Amp Output, before and after, idle:
027-LM3886-5.11k-82p-before-after-1200 - eSnips, share anything

 Scope Results, LM3886 Amp Output, 7khz @ 500mVrms, Filter IN/OUT, zoomed
032-LM3886-SB0550-250khz TwinT-before-after-800 - eSnips, share anything

 RMAA v6.06 Summary Results, before and after, ~5Wattsrms out, at headphone voltage divider:
028-LM3886-250k notch-compare-RMAA-1200 - eSnips, share anything

 Picture, notch filter, prototype PCB, SMT:
029-LM3886-250khz Notch Quick Proto-1200 - eSnips, share anything

 Schematic, filter and LM3886 amplifier:
030-LM3886-250k Passive Notch-schem-001 - eSnips, share anything

 LM3886 Amp, surplus case, pre-final/proto installation (sloppy):
031-LM3886-ProtoPreLayout-001 - eSnips, share anything


*eboy2003:*
 - nice to see you crawling around, hands and knees at HSC Surplus LOL!
 - what did you find on your outputs, SB0550 and tube amp, with your new scope?
 - sound quality impact with SMT 1206 resistors?


----------



## the.oldman

ok trying my second x-fi mod did the opamp cap ers paper put back into comp and windows doesnt see it. the cap is a fk 1000uf 16v blackgate is this enough to power the card? i thought i'd try something diff and yes I reseated the card and tried diff slots my fatality red led is lit so the card is getting power any ideas?


----------



## Random Murderer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *the.oldman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ok trying my second x-fi mod did the opamp cap ers paper put back into comp and windows doesnt see it. the cap is a fk 1000uf 16v blackgate is this enough to power the card? i thought i'd try something diff and yes I reseated the card and tried diff slots my fatality red led is lit so the card is getting power any ideas?_

 

my idea: use punctuation.

 also, it's likely you broke a trace under the opamp and/or the cap.


----------



## the.oldman

my idea: use punctuation.


 gaming keyboard ..chill thnx will chek trace


----------



## Random Murderer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *the.oldman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_my idea: use punctuation.


 gaming keyboard ..chill thnx will chek trace_

 

a keyboard is a damn keyboard.


----------



## bb7_rider

I just replaced my front L/R opamp with an LME49860 and now I have no right chanel... Tried resoldering it a few times and hasn't fixed it.. any ideas as to what i did wrong?

 edit: removed it and looks like i've pulled 2 pads, genius. I haven't been able to find a pinout of where each leg goes to? pulled the middle 2 on the left hand side when you're looking down at the card with the audio jacks at the top. I can just run wires to where the traces go and it should work right ? does anyone have a pinout diagram?


----------



## Random Murderer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bb7_rider* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just replaced my front L/R opamp with an LME49860 and now I have no right chanel... Tried resoldering it a few times and hasn't fixed it.. any ideas as to what i did wrong?

 edit: removed it and looks like i've pulled 2 pads, genius. I haven't been able to find a pinout of where each leg goes to? pulled the middle 2 on the left hand side when you're looking down at the card with the audio jacks at the top. I can just run wires to where the traces go and it should work right ? does anyone have a pinout diagram?_

 

use a multimeter set to continuity to find where those traces go.


----------



## bb7_rider

Thanks for the tip, although I know how to find out where they go, I don't have a multi meter here (just recently left home and all my tools are still there, 3 hours away, as it is i had to buy a soldering iron, solder, and wick yesterday) not real keen on buying a new multi meter just for this.. anyone already traced them out?
 sorry to be a pain and ask, if i had a multi meter here i really would trace them out myself.


----------



## Random Murderer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bb7_rider* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks for the tip, although I know how to find out where they go, I don't have a multi meter here (just recently left home and all my tools are still there, 3 hours away, as it is i had to buy a soldering iron, solder, and wick yesterday) not real keen on buying a new multi meter just for this.. anyone already traced them out?
 sorry to be a pain and ask, if i had a multi meter here i really would trace them out myself._

 

give me a while and i'll have all 8 traces laid out for ya.


----------



## bichi

*bb7_rider,*

 Don't know which X-FI card you have, but here's both SB0460 and SB0550:
 - eyeloupe for careful inspection, before and after repair
 - clean pad area before and after soldering with plastic safe, isopropyl alcohol or similar
 - Kynar 30ga wire recommended (wire-wrap type, available at Radio Shack / Dick Smith, in a pinch)
 - careful soldering wires to small SMT parts, which might move while soldering
 - clean, small tip, low-wattage (15~20Watt) iron
 - others have been successful with "trace repair ink/pen" (prefer wire, for less resistance than PCB repair ink/paint)

 Also, look back a few pages for other's experiences/solutions with same problem....

 Good Luck!

 Picture of signal lines for U2 opamp, *SB0460:*
X-FI-MOD-099c - eSnips, share anything

 Picture of signal lines for U7 opamp, *SB0550:*
X-FI-MOD-117-U7-paths - eSnips, share anything

 Both SB0460 and SB0550
 Pin #4 (-V) and pin #8 (+V) power pins can be connected to #4 and #8 of opamp below Line-Out, if required

 Trace Repair Ink/Pen, Silver based:
INTERTRONICS Trace Technologies Silver Ink Conductive Pen for PCB Repair


----------



## bb7_rider

Thankyou so so much, pretty sure mines the 0460, I'm at work right now though so can't check. Hopefully I can fix it when I get home tonight!


----------



## bb7_rider

ran a wire from every leg along the associated pathway and i still only have left channel, replaced the opamp, still nothing. maybe i killed one of the tiny SMD resistors with too much heat. don't know what to try now. think i'm in the market for a new soundcard..


----------



## Random Murderer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bb7_rider* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ran a wire from every leg along the associated pathway and i still only have left channel, replaced the opamp, still nothing. maybe i killed one of the tiny SMD resistors with too much heat. don't know what to try now. think i'm in the market for a new soundcard.._

 

if you want, you can send it to me and i could try to fix it for you.


----------



## bb7_rider

thanks for the offer but international postage x2 would cost more than the card is worth ! i'll have another look of it when i'm at home and actually have tools and my lamp with the manifying lense in the middle so i can see what the hell i'm doing ! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ordered an auzen prelude today, from an online store that said they had stock, rang later to confirm and got told they have no stock. no apology or anything, didnt even offer to refund the extra i paid for express post cause i clearly wanted it quickly. Bastards.


----------



## coolkwc

Hi, newbie here...after i read a lot of thread, i getting confuse on cap type and its usage...few question below, hope someone can help me.

 1. what Germanium done was 'bypassed' powersupply cap with metalized cap? why he only 'bypassed' and not just replace the stock and solder with metalized cap?

 2. What is metalized cap, polarized cap and non polarized cap? How to differentiate? What are those cap usage?

 I don't care whether someone either give the explaination here or just give me the appropriate link only...thanks..


----------



## trodas

To know a little more about caps, start reading there:
Identifying bad caps - Identifying Bad Capacitors & Related Symptoms - CapsMod Forum - Powered by Discuz!

 Bypassing is done to help things out. It is (in general) always better to use two caps in parallel that one. Their capacity increase, but mainly if you use two different ones, you filter best the incomming noise from voltage that go thru the whole mainboard. I would say that a ceramics SMD cap do the same job, tough.
 C46, C74, C75 and C172 - all benefit from adding a 10uF 16V X7R SMD ceramic cap in parallel to them. Maybe even the C72, but I have to measure if this is input or output one. If this is a output from the 79L05, then no, as it will trigger oscilations.

 Metalized capacitor is the very first (and possibly finest) design of capacitor. Two very thin metal sheets are separated by dielectricum. It is either folded to roll like this:
http://www.germes-online.com/direct/...Capacitors.jpg

 or be in the form of box:
http://img.alibaba.com/photo/2004173...r_class_X2.jpg

 Reasons to use these caps are their excelently low noise and great filtering abilities. They are great for audio, too. The catch is that they are VERY BIG and even big, the capacity is usually kinda low. They can go to very high voltages, tough then the size increase too much...

 Polarized capacitor is capacitor, where the polarization does matter. To metalized cap it does not matter, if the +V is on this pin or on the other. In electrolyte or tantalum dip caps this does matter and capacitor is damaged and even destroyed by overpolarization. A nice example of how I made the mistake and overpolarize a Panasonic FM cap:




 Polarized caps offer much higher capacitance and reasonably good audio specifications. They can be made optimized for many purposes, from low-ESR ones to filter the voltage well, to audio ones for audio decoupling - like Rubycon Black Gate C series or Elna RFS.

 Non polarized or bipolar caps are made so they did not care about polarity of the voltage, witch is necessary is some cases. A good example of audio grade bipolar caps are Rubycon Black Gate N or NX series:
http://img369.imageshack.us/img369/1700/bg001rl1.jpg


----------



## coolkwc

All the caps in X-FI is polarized cap rite? can swap the polarized cap with non-polarized cap or not?


----------



## Fizzycapola

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *coolkwc* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_All the caps in X-FI is polarized cap rite? can swap the polarized cap with non-polarized cap or not?_

 

I believe Creative use whatever is available to them at the time rather than all the cards being exactly the same. (I have 3 cards all the same model, all with different capacitors and different readings in RMark.)

 If you decide replacing capacitors is something for you; you must have a supply or flux and know how it's used to begin thinking about this. You will want to replace with same voltage or higher, same uF or higher. Higher values will mean larger capacitors, non polar capacitors are supposedly nice for audio signals than standard polar. They usually quite large though significantly larger than their polar brother, where capacitors are mounted in close proximity this means it's oridinarily impossible to fit oversize capacitors such as using NP for their superior quality as upgrade from default polars, in this case upgrading the quality of the polar to say an optimal polar - Panasonic FC / FM, or Rubycon. In polarized capacitors the stripe is the negative terminal which goes on the shaded part of the board, install wrong way and it pops - this can be loud and cause permanent defness.


----------



## coolkwc

Do you think this cap is suitable for replace the DSP supply cap?

SANYO | 10SP470M | Capacitors | Passives | Farnell MY


----------



## Random Murderer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *coolkwc* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Do you think this cap is suitable for replace the DSP supply cap?

SANYO | 10SP470M | Capacitors | Passives | Farnell MY_

 

caps are so cheap that i recommend getting a SIP socket and putting it on your card so you can test a bunch of different caps to find the one that's right for you. each cap will have a different sound signature, so find the one you like best before soldering it directly to the board.


----------



## okydoke

Ive gone ahead and bought some LM4562NA op amps from a guy in Australia, are these usable due to the NA on the end of em?


----------



## Random Murderer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *okydoke* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ive gone ahead and bought some LM4562NA op amps from a guy in Australia, are these usable due to the NA on the end of em?_

 

na?
 never heard of lm4562na, are you sure they're not lm4562ma?

 EDIT: nevermind, looked it up. they're DIP chips, so they're significantly larger than the SOIC chips used on the x-fi. you can still use them, but you'll need to get an adapter or get crafty with some wiring. fyi, they have the same pinout as the SOIC version.
 if you were to get an adapter, this is the one you'd need.


----------



## okydoke

thank you so much random murderer, do you think even though its larger id be able to directly solder it to the socket anyway? the pins on it seem to stem downwards a bit so i could just bend them to where i need to solder them perhaps?


----------



## Random Murderer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *okydoke* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_thank you so much random murderer, do you think even though its larger id be able to directly solder it to the socket anyway? the pins on it seem to stem downwards a bit so i could just bend them to where i need to solder them perhaps?_

 

i wouldn't risk it. not only would you need to be a freakin' incredible solderer, but the pins would need to be bent in such a way that you run the risk of shorting two or more of them.
 if you don't want to buy an adapter, then run ~1.5 inches of wire from each pin to its respective pad.


----------



## Fizzycapola

It's unfortunate how easily these thin flat pins break, bending them back and forth once or twice they snap off, not at all like round leads.


----------



## trodas

Quote:


 EDIT: nevermind, looked it up. they're DIP chips, so they're significantly larger than the SOIC chips used on the x-fi. you can still use them, but you'll need to get an adapter or get crafty with some wiring. 
 

I think it is way better to order sample of the SIOC LM4562 instead making crazy stuff to fit a DIP versions of them...


*coolkwc* - no, it is not, because it won't fit there and also because the voltage regulator hate super-low-ESR caps and the resulting voltage has more spikes and are worser that using the old crap Jamicon "thing"!
 Check there: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f6/x-f...91/index3.html
 about the TPS54352


----------



## cotdt

you more experienced modders should try the OPA2365 opamps. will need to tap the 5V supply though. it sounds great.


----------



## Apocalypsee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cotdt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_you more experienced modders should try the OPA2365 opamps. will need to tap the 5V supply though. it sounds great._

 

Some question, where to tap the 5V? And is there any higher voltage (like 12V) that I can tap on the card? 

 Another question, after tapping, what about the V-? As the voltage increase, do I need to use higher voltage caps on V-?


----------



## gurusan

I've got a question regarding the decoupling caps. Just wondering which ones in particular benefit from shorting? Where are they?


----------



## Apocalypsee

Now that I get my X-Fi XtremeMusic, I wanted to mod it, starting with the DSP caps, which one should I choose?

 1000uF 16V Sanyo WG
 1500uF 6.3V Sanyo WF
 470uF 16V Rubycon YK
 470uF 16V Nichicon HM(M)


----------



## Apocalypsee

Oh, one more question, if I wanted to bypass the decoupling caps, do I really need to remove the caps? Or is it leave the capacitor alone and short a wire behind them is sufficient?


----------



## coolkwc

Bump!!


----------



## trodas

*gurusan* - witch ones to short? Well, picture is worth thousads of words, and here you have it:

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f6/x-f...91/index4.html

  Quote:


 C23, C50, C76, C77, C28, C55, C85, C83, C61, C32, C62, C26, C67, C36, C34 and C68. It is possible to remove all the marked with green audio caps C18, C19, C21, C22, C48, C49, C102 and C104 if you did not use the AUX IN analog 2 channel CD in and the 10 pins Creative connector, for witch the 6 pcs of the bipolar caps are used to separate the AC3 6 channels signal (5.1). 
 


*Apocalypsee* - 1500uF 6.3V Sanyo WF ... but I still prefer my Samxon GC 1000uF 6.3V solution 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			






  Quote:


 if I wanted to bypass the decoupling caps, do I really need to remove the caps? Or is it leave the capacitor alone and short a wire behind them is sufficient? 
 

It is. However given the unfortunate fact that Jamicons are known bad caps (they fail/leak or explode when stressed way faster that they should - good 2000h rated 105°C cap has at least 15 years time when used at 45°C, but NOT bac caps = not JAMICONS!) I would get rid of them at all cost.

 Completely. They have to be gone from the whole card. Period.


----------



## gurusan

thanks for the info


----------



## DRCRAWFISH

What's the best main cap that I can buy on Digikey?

 And do I need insulation for the ERS paper?


----------



## lag0a

Does anyone know what this mod does exactly? Does it bypass the opamp for better sound?
Picasa-Webalben - Klaus - Audio

 Does anyone know where the front,cent/sub,rear opamps are for the b-enspirer?

 If I were to mod the b-enspirer's capacitors, the big lower left one is a Swcon 470 uf/16v and the rest are pretty much Swcon 10 uf/16v on the card and a number of them Swcon 47 uf/16v.

 How do I know which are the audible ones and which I should replace with black gates and any other kind of capacitor? Can I replace some with 6.3V? Does the better capacitor I am going to replace have to have the same uf and voltage? How will a higher or lower uf and/or voltage capacitor affect the sound?

 Can someone tell me if I can use the opa637 on the b-enspirer?

 Does anyone know what adaptor people use for their metal can type opamps?
 What are they called? Like those Auzen singles to dual opamp metal can adaptors.
 Where can I buy some online?

Auzentech, Inc. Sound Cards. Audio You Can Believe In. World First soundcards for Music, HTPC, and Gaming.

 Is there an online store that I can buy similar ones?

 Can anyone get free samples of the LM4562NA anymore? They now have like a $22 fee for it.


----------



## gurusan

Just to update....swapped out the opamp. I had a brief period of panic where only the left channel worked. Just cleaned up the soldering a bit and now it works...and omg the difference is night and day. This sound card really is amazing now. 

 Also, despite that one hiccup, the mod was much easier than I expected. I'm a noob at soldering and it only took me a few minutes.

 here she is in action (LME4960MA)
 next I'm going to short the decoupling caps and put on some EMI shielding







 Also I had 1 question, does the opamp have a break-in period?


----------



## BigSurSpoon

If you don't want to replace the power filter capacitor with the BG 16v 2200uF, what would be some good alternatives?


----------



## gurusan

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *BigSurSpoon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If you don't want to replace the power filter capacitor with the BG 16v 2200uF, what would be some good alternatives?_

 

I used a Sanyo WG 16V 1500uF cap and it works great.


----------



## apatN

I've been wanting to get into DIY for some time now. In a couple of weeks school's out and I'd like to build my own cable, or make a CMoy amp or anything comparable. My dad has a rather old soldering iron that I'd likely have to replace. It's a 15 watt'er and from what I've read here, you're not going to be succesfull trying to desolder the capacitors on the x-fi with a 15 watt iron.
 Ehm, I found on marktplaats.nl (a 2nd handed + new stuff, site in the NL) an iron I like, but I'm not entirely sure if it will fit my needs.
 It's  this one. It is 60W with a controllable temperature from 100-400 degrees celsius. I like the looks from it, though it's rather cheap. This iron + sucker for only 15EU, which is not even 10$.. Will this do the trick for me?

 EDIT: It's advertised here: Fijne regelbare soldeerbout (NIEUW !)


----------



## coolkwc

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *BigSurSpoon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If you don't want to replace the power filter capacitor with the BG 16v 2200uF, what would be some good alternatives?_

 

Well, i use Panasonic Low ESR 680uf 4v solid cap, work perfectly...


----------



## trodas

*apatN* - I did not had much sucess with such soldering irons, regardless of the wattage. I use this:
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f6/how...e-caps-331573/
 And you bet I'm going to stick with it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 So in short, no. I did not think that this is a good soldering iron for X-Fi recap. However if you just buing your soldering iron... you should practice like mad on at least 10 sucesfully repaired mainboards, before playing with your X-Fi. You might kill it, if you haven't got enough experience.


*coolkwc* -  Quote:


 Well, i use Panasonic Low ESR 680uf 4v solid cap, work perfectly... 
 

Of course, but that is just because you cannot hear the voltage spikes that result from using such low ESR cap 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Tell me, what ripple ratting does this cap have?
 Becuase if you study the regulator like I did ( http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f6/x-f...lution-216791/ ) you might notice that the recommended cap ripple value is around 1500mA... while solid polymers are typically around 6000mA ... witch cause higher voltage spikes that using of the original cursed bad cap Jamicon 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Just letting ya know.


----------



## coolkwc

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *trodas* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*apatN* - I did not had much sucess with such soldering irons, regardless of the wattage. I use this:
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f6/how...e-caps-331573/
 And you bet I'm going to stick with it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 So in short, no. I did not think that this is a good soldering iron for X-Fi recap. However if you just buing your soldering iron... you should practice like mad on at least 10 sucesfully repaired mainboards, before playing with your X-Fi. You might kill it, if you haven't got enough experience.


*coolkwc* - 

 Of course, but that is just because you cannot hear the voltage spikes that result from using such low ESR cap 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Tell me, what ripple ratting does this cap have?
 Becuase if you study the regulator like I did ( http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f6/x-f...lution-216791/ ) you might notice that the recommended cap ripple value is around 1500mA... while solid polymers are typically around 6000mA ... witch cause higher voltage spikes that using of the original cursed bad cap Jamicon 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Just letting ya know._

 

bro, i can't find the spec sheet in google, the cap is Panasonic FL series 680uf 4v which i took off from mobo VRM...maybe you can find out for me
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...

 OK, three questions here

 1.) I replaced C72, C74, C75, C43 -->Rubycon MBZ 1000uf 16v, C46, 91, 107, 119 -->Rubycon MBZ 1000uf 10v, and C16 -->Panasonic FL 680uf 4v...do you think my mod is suitable? any inappropriate? well, i'm poor, those cap i all taken from the mobo and GC
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...

 2.) Since you said that the recommended cap ripple value is around 1500mA, but the application design by using Sanyo Oscon SVP 330uf 16v has a rated RMS ripple current 4720mA as well, how you going to explain it?

 3.)_In this case the input ripple voltage would be 140 mV and
 the RMS ripple current would be 1.5 A. The maximum
 voltage across the input capacitors would be VIN max plus
 delta VIN/2. The chosen bulk and bypass capacitors are
 each rated for 25 V and the combined ripple current
 capacity is greater than 3 A, both providing ample margin.
 It is very important that the maximum ratings for voltage
 and current are not exceeded under any circumstance._

 I think the ripple current you said was came from here, rite? Ok, if the RMS ripple current is 1500mA, that means we suppose should use the cap that can handle at least or above this current rating? is that any wrong? 

 bro, comment on it, just give any suggestion or correction or even criticism, i will please to hear it, thanks...


----------



## apatN

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *trodas* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*apatN* - I did not had much sucess with such soldering irons, regardless of the wattage. I use this:
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f6/how...e-caps-331573/
 And you bet I'm going to stick with it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 So in short, no. I did not think that this is a good soldering iron for X-Fi recap. However if you just buing your soldering iron... you should practice like mad on at least 10 sucesfully repaired mainboards, before playing with your X-Fi. You might kill it, if you haven't got enough experience._

 

I Like that way and will definetly give it a try. And oh, you can only imagine how many boards will be victim to me and my new soldering iron 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But you never use pump?

 Nick.


----------



## lag0a

On the b-enspirer
http://www.virtual-hideout.net/revie...nspirer/10.jpg

 Does anyone which opamp is for the front, rear, center/sub, and back surround?
 I can't find anything online.


----------



## coolkwc

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *apatN* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I Like that way and will definetly give it a try. And oh, you can only imagine how many boards will be victim to me and my new soldering iron 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But you never use pump?

 Nick._

 

bro, no need to use pump for desoldering this board and don't use it as well, it might suck away the circuit trace if done wrongly....just heat one lead and use your finger to bent the cap at another site, approximate 2 times for each lead will be able to take out the cap adi...


----------



## okydoke

ordering samples of the lm4562, how do I do this?


----------



## Apocalypsee

I currently use LME49720, is there any other opamp I should try? Planning to try either LT1364 or LT1361


----------



## qwerty009

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Apocalypsee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I currently use LME49720, is there any other opamp I should try? Planning to try either LT1364 or LT1361_

 

ad8620


----------



## Apocalypsee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qwerty009* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ad8620_

 

Hmm, its hard to get that opamp. What about LM6172? Or am I crazy to use that?

 EDIT: After reading around, I think I wanted to try AD8599


----------



## coolkwc

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qwerty009* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ad8620_

 

AD8620 expensive here, USD$18++...


----------



## PianistOne111

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Apocalypsee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_EDIT: After reading around, I think I wanted to try AD8599_

 

I've got AD8599. I like it, although I can't compare it with anything but stock opamps.


----------



## trodas

*coolkwc* - Panny FL capacitor is nowhere near to be found, not even as discontinued ones, on Panasonic site:
Capacitive Products - Leaded Electrolytic
 Hence it is fake cap.

  Quote:


 1.) I replaced C72, C74, C75, C43 -->Rubycon MBZ 1000uf 16v 
 

I recommending different capacitors (before you ask, check my thread first) but still a good work. Maybe 1000uF is overkill, but... good.

  Quote:


 C46, 91, 107, 119 -->Rubycon MBZ 1000uf 10V 
 

Also good, but I would go with 6.3V and Panny FM as it have far better ripple specs at the size. Rergardless, anything is better that known failing bad caps Jamicons.

  Quote:


 and C16 -->Panasonic FL 680uf 4v...do you think my mod is suitable? any inappropriate? well, i'm poor, those cap i all taken from the mobo and GC... 
 

Yep, reasonably good, except for these questionable caps. Especially in the C177, C16 and C46 positions where it matters. A Samxon GD 470uF 6.3V if a miracle for the last two positions.

  Quote:


 2.) Since you said that the recommended cap ripple value is around 1500mA, but the application design by using Sanyo Oscon SVP 330uf 16v has a rated RMS ripple current 4720mA as well, how you going to explain it? 
 

I would urge you to re-read the PDF again 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 You got it wrong and it was explained why and how... it all depends on the powering voltage, switching frequency and impadance of used coil. For components present on X-Fi is a surprisingly mediocre cap the best.
 Oscons cause huge voltage spikes there. Because of their super-low-ESR nature and very high ripple currents...

  Quote:


 3.)In this case the input ripple voltage would be 140 mV and the RMS ripple current would be 1.5 A. The maximum voltage across the input capacitors would be VIN max plus delta VIN/2. The chosen bulk and bypass capacitors are each rated for 25 V and the combined ripple current capacity is greater than 3 A, both providing ample margin. It is very important that the maximum ratings for voltage and current are not exceeded under any circumstance.

 I think the ripple current you said was came from here, rite? Ok, if the RMS ripple current is 1500mA, that means we suppose should use the cap that can handle at least or above this current rating? is that any wrong? 
 

No, this is dangerous and wrong oversimplification that does not take into the account the exisiting components on the X-Fi. Few quotes from the PDF:

  Quote:


 The ESR is important because along with the inductor current it determines the amount of output ripple voltage. 
 

 Quote:


 Consider the relationship between the desired closed loop crossover frequency of the design and LC corner frequency of the output filter. In general, it is desirable to keep the closed loop crossover frequency at less than 1/5 of the switching frequency. 
 

 Quote:


 In Figure 28, the TPS54356 shown with a single 100-µF
 6-V POSCAP as the output filter capacitor. 
 

 Quote:


 Calculating the RMS ripple current in the output capacitor using equation 16 yields 156 mA. The POSCAP 6TPC100M capacitor selected is rated for 1700 mA. 
 

 Quote:


 In Figure 29, the TPS54356 shown with two 180-µF 4-V special polymer dielectric output filter capacitors(C2 and C5). The RMS ripple current in the output capacitor is the same as before. The selected capacitors are each 3.3 A. 
 

 Quote:


 The special *polymer electrolytic capacitors* used in this design *require* that the *closed loop crossover frequency be lowered* due to the significantly lower ESR of this type of capacitor. 
 

 Quote:


 bro, comment on it, just give any suggestion or correction or even criticism, i will please to hear it, thanks... 
 

Well, I think everything is written long time ago there. Since most (if not all for the time being) of the X-Fi modifications are simple opamps and capacitor replacements/removal/shortage and no-one is modyfying the frequency of the regulator used to power the main X-Fi chip, then Os-cons is a bad bad bad idea. Around page 54 of this thread I tried it too myself.
 So, unless you want fiddle with the frequency used, I suggest you use around 1000uF 6.3V capacitor with reasonable specs (not too low ESR, not too high ripple). It could be better even bellow average one - eg. lower specs Samxon GD would probably yield better results in voltage stability (read output ripple) that the Samxon GC 1000uF 6.3V I used.


*apatN* - yes, never.


*Apocalypsee* - Well, that's the beauty of it. Ask 20 hifists about witch opamp they would recommend, get 20 recommendations 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 AD8599 is awailable in only SOIC package, but that is ideal for X-Fi. LM4562 is either as SOIC, or as DIP8 - witch is great.

 AD8599 also could be "slow" for electronic music/game SFX... but I quess personal preferences and the rest of the setup play much major role that these opamps.
 But I like the AD8599 as replacement.
 There is also another reason for AD8599, not widely known. When using 5.1 output from the card (eg. utilizing most of the opamps) the LM4562 draw a 500mA, while AD8599 only 450mA. Even the difference is small, it could affect good the circuit that lack a big capacitor somewhere in middle of these opamps so the actull current draw from any / all of them does not affecting the nearby ones much.
 That is why C46 position is critical.
 Adding aditional voltage filtering cap is a good idea.
 Also little cooper heatsinks on these opamps and on the DAC would help to
 a) add shielding
 b) cool the components down, hence minimizing the noise


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *BigSurSpoon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If you don't want to replace the power filter capacitor with the BG 16v 2200uF, what would be some good alternatives?_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *coolkwc* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, i use Panasonic Low ESR 680uf 4v solid cap, work perfectly..._

 

See following two old posts, ultra-low ERS capacitor considerations (solid-polymer, ie., OSCON, NPCAP, PXA, SP-CAP, etc.) feeding X-FI CA20K1. (C161, SB0550 or C177, SB0460)
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/3269637-post1295.html
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/3269940-post1296.html

 Component/Location Reference Pictures:
 SB0460:
X-FI-MOD-029b - eSnips, share anything
 SB0550:
X-FI-MOD-109 - eSnips, share anything

*Holland*
 - thanks for the ethical support!
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/4198481-post38.html

*Trodas,*
 - request you unlink my work from your Imageshack/past posts
 - information is not complete without my comments and must be linked to original location(s).
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/3773655-post27.html
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/4165909-post31.html


----------



## lag0a

Keep up the good work.


----------



## coolkwc

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *trodas* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*coolkwc*
 Hence it is fake cap._

 

i took it from ASUS mobo, i don't think it was fake cap, and i can find FL series in ebay, only got high capacity...but i can't explain why it was not in Panny product list even in discontinued list, its weird...

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *trodas* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*coolkwc*
 Oscons cause huge voltage spikes there. Because of their super-low-ESR nature and very high ripple currents..._

 

ermm, i saw you used Oscon in the C177 before, how is the voltage spikes measured? i just wonder the voltage spikes you mentioned always...thanks


----------



## trodas

Asus is well-known for using fake brands of caps and even fake caps. Seen this only too many times...
 The reason why Panny FL is not into Panny caps list is clearly simple. They did not made them. It is that simple. I can show you many examples, but this is a X-Fi thread, not fake caps thread 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Yes, I used Oscon as C177 before, and quess what. The voltage is nowhere as clean, as with the Panny FM 470uF 16V or the Samxon GC 1000uF 6.3V ... spikes are measured with scope, of course. DMM is useless for measuring at mainbords, because in case of AC voltage or DC with spikes/noise it always only show the effective average, where you are most interesed about the noise, spikes and/or the highest spike to know, what is the absolute max voltage on the cap, so what voltage cap you can use there. That is why I in my thread took the time and measure ALL the caps on X-Fi for their max voltages


----------



## Random Murderer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *trodas* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Asus is well-known for using fake brands of caps and even fake caps. Seen this only too many times...
 The reason why Panny FL is not into Panny caps list is clearly simple. They did not made them. It is that simple. I can show you many examples, but this is a X-Fi thread, not fake caps thread 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Yes, I used Oscon as C177 before, and quess what. The voltage is nowhere as clean, as with the Panny FM 470uF 16V or the Samxon GC 1000uF 6.3V ... spikes are measured with scope, of course. DMM is useless for measuring at mainbords, because in case of AC voltage or DC with spikes/noise it always only show the effective average, where you are most interesed about the noise, spikes and/or the highest spike to know, what is the absolute max voltage on the cap, so what voltage cap you can use there. That is why I in my thread took the time and measure ALL the caps on X-Fi for their max voltages 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

lol, just link him to your cap thread on tpu, i think he'll get the idea.


----------



## cotdt

dammit my x-fi doesn't work when i install my Radeon video card. is there some kind of weird incompatibility between the SB0460 and certain motherboard/video card combos?


----------



## Random Murderer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cotdt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_dammit my x-fi doesn't work when i install my Radeon video card. is there some kind of weird incompatibility between the SB0460 and certain motherboard/video card combos?_

 

no, none that i know of.
 irq issue maybe?


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Random Murderer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_no, none that i know of.
 irq issue maybe?_

 

i tried manually assigning the IRQs and tried all the different PCI slots but nothing works. the computer would not even turn on. Audigy2 works fine though, but not X-Fi.


----------



## Random Murderer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cotdt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i tried manually assigning the IRQs and tried all the different PCI slots but nothing works. the computer would not even turn on. Audigy2 works fine though, but not X-Fi._

 

how much ram do you have installed?


----------



## coolkwc

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cotdt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_dammit my x-fi doesn't work when i install my Radeon video card. is there some kind of weird incompatibility between the SB0460 and certain motherboard/video card combos?_

 

not weird bro, i think is incompatible issue...you can search at Creative forum, a lot of examples there...for mainboard, Nvidia chipset will give a lot of troubles to X-FI...


----------



## lag0a

Nevermind


----------



## apatN

I tried looking for the Black Gates 2200uF 16V and found them. Mailed the shop and got a reply that those caps are out of stock and Black Gate stopped making them. I could consider Black Gate 4700uF 16V according to them. What would be better? Getting the Black Gate 4700 or another brand 2200uF (and what brand). 4700uF Blackgate are twice the price of 2200uF ones.. 3300uF is 13euros..


----------



## Apocalypsee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *apatN* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I tried looking for the Black Gates 2200uF 16V and found them. Mailed the shop and got a reply that those caps are out of stock and Black Gate stopped making them. I could consider Black Gate 4700uF 16V according to them. What would be better? Getting the Black Gate 4700 or another brand 2200uF (and what brand). 4700uF Blackgate are twice the price of 2200uF ones.. 3300uF is 13euros.._

 

You don't need too high capacitance, even 470uF is enough. I just use 1500uF


----------



## apatN

Hmm, I knew that 2200 was overkill but what should I get then? The 4700uF Black Gate or another? Budget around 15EU since that's the price I'd have to pay for the 4700.


----------



## PianistOne111

For the power filter cap, I've got Panasonic FM 1200µF.


----------



## Random Murderer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PianistOne111* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_For the power filter cap, I've got Panasonic FM 1200µF._

 

i use a 1000µf panny fm.
 panasonic fm caps are probably the best caps you can use for power filter on a sound card because it's not in the audio path(hence no need for an audio cap) but the specs are amazing.


----------



## coolkwc

Anybody know whats the function of the component after the opamp as red circled? One of my forum friend Najmods
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 creative enough
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 to bypassed those component and claim the sound more clear now...


----------



## Random Murderer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *coolkwc* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anybody know whats the function of the component after the opamp as red circled? One of my forum friend Najmods
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 creative enough
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 to bypassed those component and claim the sound more clear now...



_

 

those are the muting transistors.


----------



## catx

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *coolkwc* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anybody know whats the function of the component after the opamp as red circled? One of my forum friend Najmods
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 creative enough
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 to bypassed those component and claim the sound more clear now...



_

 

they are part of the muting circuit, i had one gone bad on my front channel.
 Bypassing them will greatly improve the sound, but you will ear pops/cracks when shutting your pc off or changing audio mode.

 Here is a pic of my card after the bypass






 It would be interesting to find out the specs of the original transistors and check if better parts (higher bandwidth?) can improve the sound without eliminating the muting circuit.


----------



## coolkwc

eliminate the muting circuit still can mute the sound or not?


----------



## Random Murderer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *coolkwc* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_eliminate the muting circuit still can mute the sound or not?_

 

yes, through software. hardware will not be able to.


----------



## coolkwc

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Random Murderer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_yes, through software. hardware will not be able to._

 

hardware will not be able to? what meaning?


----------



## Random Murderer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *coolkwc* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_hardware will not be able to? what meaning?
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

it means that by removing the muting transistors you are removing the hardware on the sound card that is responsible for muting. you will still be able to go into the windows volume control and use the mute there.


----------



## Apocalypsee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Random Murderer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_it means that by removing the muting transistors you are removing the hardware on the sound card that is responsible for muting. you will still be able to go into the windows volume control and use the mute there._

 

Hmm, that makes we wonder, what are the reason those transistor is there in the first place if it can be controlled by software?


----------



## Random Murderer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Apocalypsee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hmm, that makes we wonder, what are the reason those transistor is there in the first place if it can be controlled by software?_

 

think of it as a valve(not an electron tube, but an actual water valve) that remains open because the audio chip sends it a signal to stay open and let audio through. when that signal is not being sent(like when shutting down your computer) the valve closes and halts the flow of water(audio). it's just an automatic noise reducer, but unfortunately it can also affect audio signal...


----------



## coolkwc

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Random Murderer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_think of it as a valve(not an electron tube, but an actual water valve) that remains open because the audio chip sends it a signal to stay open and let audio through. when that signal is not being sent(like when shutting down your computer) the valve closes and halts the flow of water(audio). it's just an automatic noise reducer, but unfortunately it can also affect audio signal..._

 

I think that one only function when the computer unload the driver(such as restart PC), am i rite? if we press mute on the volume button, this component will function or not?


----------



## Apocalypsee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Random Murderer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_think of it as a valve(not an electron tube, but an actual water valve) that remains open because the audio chip sends it a signal to stay open and let audio through. when that signal is not being sent(like when shutting down your computer) the valve closes and halts the flow of water(audio). it's just an automatic noise reducer, but unfortunately it can also affect audio signal..._

 

I see, that makes perfect sense, actual valve introduces turbulent, energy loss etc I guess that is the same as in circuits (I learn fluid mechanics)

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *coolkwc* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think that one only function when the computer unload the driver(such as restart PC), am i rite? if we press mute on the volume button, this component will function or not?_

 

This transistor can't be controlled by software, it just sense whether ther is a signal or not, if the signal is there it will open if it not it will block any small signal from going through. I'm guessing though, judging from what Random Murderer said


----------



## Navyblue

This is the Sound Blaster Digital Music SX, being touted as "audiophile quality" by creative.












 So it looks like it uses the CS4398 as DAC chip which is good stuff? Or is it CS5351 that is also found on the board?

 There is a if I were to mod it, is it the 4556 at the bottom of the second picture that I replace with the LM4562? Where are the capacitor in my case?

 It sounds pretty decent to me though.


----------



## trodas

*apatN* - you should NOT use audio capacitor in voltage filtering application. This mod was proven to be pure nonsense (laughable on top of that, but so are many my mistakes as well, so...) long time ago. Use Panny FM 1000uF 6.3V, Samxon GC 1000uF 6.3V as I did there: X-Fi sound bugs? I think I have a solution. - Head-Fi: Covering Headphones, Earphones and Portable Audio
 or any decent low ESR capacitor. Do not use super-low-esr ones (polymers), or you head to another problem...


*coolkwc* -  Quote:


 bypassed those component and claim the sound more clear now... 
 

No wonder. Anything staying in audio path is distorting the signal.


*catx* -  Quote:


 Bypassing them will greatly improve the sound, but you will ear pops/cracks when shutting your pc off or changing audio mode. 
 

How loud are these? I did not change audio mode at all, lol, but if they are managable, well... the audio quality is worth them, right?
 How about to use AD8599 as opamp? The LM4562 is ofter regarded as "total sonic crap" ...
 And how about to short the unnecessary caps between DAC and opamps? Helped a lot in my case 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


 Here is a pic of my card after the bypass 
 

Very nice! Now what about the other 4 channels? This is just the L/R channels, what to do to bypass the others? RL/RR, CENTER, SW...?

  Quote:


 would be interesting to find out the specs of the original transistors and check if better parts (higher bandwidth?) can improve the sound without eliminating the muting circuit 
 

Impossible. Anything in the audio path will introduce problems. These transistors hardly need more bandwith - they can go to Mhz at least - and they are opened all the time. The problem is, that they are simply not good for the audio at all...


*Navyblue* - I see 4 pcs of the 4556 opamps there 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 And the sound quality you hear depends, well, on the amplifier and repros you are using - as well as the audiosource too... So it is not so easy to say that it "sounds well" ...


----------



## Random Murderer

nevermind...


----------



## Navyblue

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *trodas* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*Navyblue* - I see 4 pcs of the 4556 opamps there 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Where are they? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Btw those two pictures are the same board from opposite angles.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *trodas* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*apatN*And the sound quality you hear depends, well, on the amplifier and repros you are using - as well as the audiosource too... So it is not so easy to say that it "sounds well" ... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Sorry I don't get you, what I meant by it sounded decent I mean it is decent as a source, compared to other sources like CDP. How does it have anything to do with all those you mentioned?


----------



## Random Murderer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Navyblue* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Where are they? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Btw those two pictures are the same board from opposite angles._

 

there may be four, but i only see three. the one you mentioned and then two right near one of the pots towards the front(back?). i also see two TI chips, but i don't know what they are since i can't read the part numbers...


----------



## Navyblue

Yes, there are many of them, but I only see one that has 4556 on it.

 There are 2 line in, 2 line out (not sure if they are in fact linked), 1 mic and 1 headphone out. I guess there will be one chip for each of these?


----------



## Random Murderer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Navyblue* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes, there are many of them, but I only see one that has 4556 on it.

 There are 2 line in, 2 line out (not sure if they are in fact linked), 1 mic and 1 headphone out. I guess there will be one chip for each of these?_

 

i was saying that i see 3 4556's in addition to two ti chips.


----------



## Navyblue

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Random Murderer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i was saying that i see 3 4556's in addition to two ti chips._

 

Yes, but where? At least tell me which quadrant to look at.


----------



## Random Murderer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Navyblue* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes, but where? At least tell me which quadrant to look at. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_


----------



## Navyblue

Thanks a lot. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But those two at the right are ST's 4558C and not JRC's 4556A.

 So, which of these do I touch?


----------



## Random Murderer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Navyblue* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks a lot. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But those two at the right are ST's 4558C and not JRC's 4556A.

 So, which of these do I touch?_

 

i don't know. your best bet is to wait for trodas or cotdt or someone of the like to answer


----------



## trodas

Nah, we can't respond, since we did not ahve that card... So, first measure witch one is witch and ...

 Is not this a thread about X-Fi mods?
 What about figuring out there a X-Fi scheme? For example the scheme AFTER these opamps...


----------



## dumbears

After scanning thru the whole thread, I decide to give my X-Fi XtremeMusic a try.
 Here is my initial modding configuration, pls comment:
 - C23, C50, C76, C77 - Panasonic audio cap 33uF/10V ECA1AAD330X
 - C46, C72 - Rubycon ZL cap 1000uF/6.3V
 - Opamp, I'll pick AD8599

 However, my DVD drive is connected to it as well. Which pair of caps I should change? What value should I change?

 Pls advise. Thanks and happy modding!

 P.S. All components are found in Farnell.


----------



## Apocalypsee

Anymore opamp to recommend? Maybe LT1364 or LT1361 is good? I need a list of good dual opamp to try


----------



## coolkwc

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Apocalypsee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anymore opamp to recommend? Maybe LT1364 or LT1361 is good? I need a list of good dual opamp to try_

 

Maybe OPA627, lol...


----------



## Apocalypsee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *coolkwc* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Maybe OPA627, lol..._

 

Be serious, that was single, I need dual. Maybe OPA2227 would be nice


----------



## coolkwc

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Apocalypsee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Be serious, that was single, I need dual. Maybe OPA2227 would be nice_

 

where you want to get OPA2227? in my country, farnell no stock available..lol...


----------



## Apocalypsee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *coolkwc* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_where you want to get OPA2227? in my country, farnell no stock available..lol..._

 

RS sell them, but anyway I still don't know what to buy. Needed more recommendation


----------



## trodas

I woudl definitively vote for the AD8599 - it has been (unlike the LM4562) apraised my many audiophiles. Just check there:
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f6/sta...9/#post3536731

 Another opamp to consideration might be a NE5532, but it is not as apraised as the AD8599 one...


 The question _you did not want to hear_ is - is your output amplifier after X-Fi even capable to let you hear the difference? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			








 (yes, there IS a big difference after replacing the original crappy 4558 ones for the LM4562 ones, but only if you get rid of the Jamicon crap-caps and the LM4562 ones also require a burn-in time, so you hear at first a bit crazy emphasizatiuon of the details - it make my head hurt, lol ... it get settled in a 2 to 3 days to hearable output and in 2 or 3 weeks to be even compared with the 4558 - and yes, then there is still more details, but not overblown as before... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )


----------



## Nocturnal310

Guys,

 can the XMOD also be hotrodded ?


----------



## apatN

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Nocturnal310* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Guys,

 can the XMOD also be hotrodded ?_

 

Lol, you can't stop about the XMOD, can you? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Anyways, the AD8599 is better? I might give it a try, though the samples from national are free. Ordered mine some days ago but still no shipping confirmation however


----------



## Random Murderer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *apatN* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Lol, you can't stop about the XMOD, can you? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Anyways, the AD8599 is better? I might give it a try, though the samples from national are free. Ordered mine some days ago but still no shipping confirmation however 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

if somebody decides to open their x-mod then we'll know if it's moddable or not.

 and i never got a shipping confirmation from national. one day my opamps just showed up on my doorstep, it was about 2 weeks after ordering.


----------



## apatN

Whoa that's nice. Well not really but nice you still got them. I don't know but I hope it gives no problems since I live in the Netherlands.

 Well, we'll see in a week or so


----------



## Random Murderer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *apatN* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Whoa that's nice. Well not really but nice you still got them. I don't know but I hope it gives no problems since I live in the Netherlands.

 Well, we'll see in a week or so 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

you're closer in terms of shipping distance... national is based out of singapore, and that's where my opamps shipped from...


----------



## holland

I need some advice regarding an SB0460.

 My line-in is no longer working. I'm not sure what happened. I would guess that something blew. It's not clear what. I'm not set up to debug this live, as I don't have a system out of a case to probe around with.

 On the SB0460. Does the line in run directly to the ADC or is there something else in between? My initial feeling is the ADC, but I'm not sure I want to pull a 28-pin SSOP for the fun of it.

 Are there fuses/diodes in the path? Something probable off line (resistance, continuity, etc.)?

 Thanks!


----------



## Apocalypsee

Hmm, I try to run without opamp now. I loved it very much. Even though I ordered 3 different opamp I think I don't need them anymore. It sounded wonderful without it. I even bypass the muting capacitor plus now I use decoupling capacitor, 10uF Elna bipolar with 100nF metallized polypropylene as a bypass. Its DC offset now is 12mV, if shorted its 2V, with opamp and shorted is 190mV


----------



## Apocalypsee

Planning to buy Sanyo OS-CON for coupling caps, is it recommended? I have 680uF 6.3V OS-CON, but I think the capacitance is too much for coupling, but can I use them anyway?


----------



## coolkwc

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Apocalypsee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Planning to buy Sanyo OS-CON for coupling caps, is it recommended? I have 680uF 6.3V OS-CON, but I think the capacitance is too much for coupling, but can I use them anyway?_

 

Ermm, i just soldered 680uf as coupling cap, surprisingly it boost a little in the low region and high region..so far didn't hear any bad effect by using large capacitance cap as coupling cap, so i think it won't be a problem...


----------



## yzriver

I have a X-Fi Platinum with the I/O bay installed in my PC. I just set it up last night, and listened music from the headphone output on the panel. The sound is muddy. Yes, I amplified the headphone output with a headphone amplfier to drive my AKG K501. I feel it is worse than using the XMod.
 I am excited to find this thread. I don't care much on the sound quality of the analog line-out, since I will use digital out to my receiver for playing music with speakers. 
 Could you guys suggest how I can upgrade the headphone output module of this X-Fi Platinum?

 thanks a lot.


----------



## Random Murderer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yzriver* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have a X-Fi Platinum with the I/O bay installed in my PC. I just set it up last night, and listened music from the headphone output on the panel. The sound is muddy. Yes, I amplified the headphone output with a headphone amplfier to drive my AKG K501. I feel it is worse than using the XMod.
 I am excited to find this thread. I don't care much on the sound quality of the analog line-out, since I will use digital out to my receiver for playing music with speakers. 
 Could you guys suggest how I can upgrade the headphone output module of this X-Fi Platinum?

 thanks a lot._

 

pictures!
 i demand pictures!!!

 in all seriousness, we need some shots of the pcb on the bay device and the card.


----------



## Apocalypsee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *coolkwc* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ermm, i just soldered 680uf as coupling cap, surprisingly it boost a little in the low region and high region..so far didn't hear any bad effect by using large capacitance cap as coupling cap, so i think it won't be a problem..._

 

I've tried it on top of 10uF (the 680uF is big, I can't fit in the holes), it sounds OK. I got a lot better response on lower region, the bass seems fuller now. Might sound a little better too, I heard some details on background that unheard before even on lower bitrate mp3 files. No other ill effects as far as I an heard or tested


----------



## coolkwc

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Apocalypsee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've tried it on top of 10uF (the 680uF is big, I can't fit in the holes), it sounds OK. I got a lot better response on lower region, the bass seems fuller now. Might sound a little better too, I heard some details on background that unheard before even on lower bitrate mp3 files. No other ill effects as far as I an heard or tested_

 

the RMAA test can justified our claim...






 you can read here as well..
Input Capacitors for Headphone Amps


----------



## trodas

*About the muting transistors.*

 The shorting of the muting output transistors is interesting idea. I think it is a fair trade to trade the clicks when drivers is loading AND when switching the audio modes for the higher detail level, don't you agree?

 However I seen just this image:




 That says it bypass them, however there is two main problems.
 1) it is only for the L and R channels, while I need to take care about six channels - L, R, RL, RR, CENTER and SUB.
 2) tracing the pins of the transistors back to the opamps output (pins 1 and 7) show no connection at all to those shorted pins!

 Anyone know where the output from pins 1 and 7 of the opamps really go? The mod definitively connect well the output, but the input is wrong...

 And what about the other channels?!

 Here is a little drawing of what I checked to be true - X-Fi jacks connection






 Any help/ideas? What I did overlook?


----------



## catx

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *trodas* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*About the muting transistors.*
 2) tracing the pins of the transistors back to the opamps output (pins 1 and 7) show no connection at all to those shorted pins!_

 

They are not directly connected, there is also a small resistor in the output path (part of the biasing circuit for transistors?) but it shouldn't affect sound quality.

 OPAMP>-[R]->[MUTING]->[jack]

 I suppose the circuit is the same for the other channels (the small ICs are just dual transistors in a single package)


----------



## bichi

From an old post, describing effect of *coupling-capacitor value* and frequency response for the *SB0460.*
 - note largest effect is low-freqency response.
 - table shows typical capacitor values, derived from CS4382 DAC, Wolfson WM8775 ADC design/eval notes and acutal measurements.
 - additional coupling-capacitor selection data in Wolfson app note below. 

 Old Post, Sept 22 2007, coupling cap values vs., shorted, RMAA response and graphs: 
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/3283113-post1312.html
X-FI-MOD-073b - eSnips, share anything

 Table, calculated results:
X-FI-MOD-118-SB0460 Coup Cap - eSnips, share anything

*Conclusion:*
 - point of no or little practical performance increase is about 33~47uf...

*REFs:*
_*SB0460*
 - Cirrus Logic: CS4382 DAC (Zo analog: 3k) (PSRR: 60db @ 1khz) (stock: Jamicon 22uf @ 16vdc)
 - Wolfson: WM8775 ADC (Zo analog: 10k app note) (PSRR: 45db) (Stock: WinCap NP 4.7uf @ 16vdc) 

*Wolfson AC Coupling Capacitor Selection App Note*:
http://www.wolfsonmicro.com/uploads/...en/WAN0176.pdf_


----------



## trodas

*catx* -  Quote:


 there is also a small resistor in the output path (part of the biasing circuit for transistors?) but it shouldn't affect sound quality 
 

Well, it is probably resistor with relatively low value (I say like 100 ohms) to protect the output opamps from shortcut in cable/connectors. It sure does affect the sound quality, but after the opamps we are out of the pre-amp supersensitive stage, so the impact will be very small.
 I say keep it there.

  Quote:


 I suppose the circuit is the same for the other channels (the small ICs are just dual transistors in a single package) 
 

That sounds very logical, thank you. Now how these small dual transistors have their pins connected, so we know what to short?

 Regardless, usually the single package transistors has in the single pin side a collector pin. I fail to see how shorting two colectors could bypas the signal over them, but not for long.

 If I undertstand this right, then it is necessary to use TWO transistors per channel to get the positive AND the negtive parts of the audio signal thru. So these transistors are about to be in parallel with their collectors and emitors, hence shorting the two collectors do the job.






 As you can see, shorting the collectors OR emitors really does the job there. But how with these dual transistors?!




*About AD8599 opamp*
 (testing made my friend, imperialreign, who have tad better ears that me and take music really seriously)

 Fatal1ty with LM4562





 Fatal1ty with AD8599





 I ran the AD8599 tests 4-times each to make sure of those results - comparatively, the AD8599 allows for a better dynamic range at all testing levels, compared to the LM4562... it might only be an average difference of -2dbA, but for such a small component that's a lot...

 THD and IMD+N results for the AD8599 are very-slightly better, the most improvement difference, though is at 16bit playbacks; coupled with the slightly higher dynamic range, I'd conclude as well that these OPAMPs aren't as affected by EMI as the LM4562.

 Also of note - the AD8599 rated better at stereo crosstalk than the LM4562... meaning there's less channel bleeding.

 TBH, the AD8599 sounds the same to me now as it did after first installation (surprisingly). I really also dig how they sound compared to the LM4562 as well; the 4562 OPAMPs produce some very sharp frequencies that I personally found to be annoying at times. The 8599 has a lot warmer sound, IMO it has a lot more depth to it.

 For the cheaper price, I'd say it ousts the 4562.


----------



## trodas

*Removing X-Fi muting transistors.*

 Having transistors in the audio loop is definitively a big NO-NO, just go ask any audiophile of Hi-Fists and he did not even need to be an extreme one to tell you this. So, I concentrated my efforts this way. First I produced this picture of what is short direct contact on my X-Fi Fatal1ty: http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/e...ps_outputs.jpg

 And todays I go deeper. It is same for each output. After opamp, there is a 33ohm resistor to protect the opamp from shortcut on the end. It has minimal impact on the signal, so, keep it. Later there are two muting transistors, for the positive and negative flow:






 And after them a two small caps to the ground to kill the possible high frequency interference. For L and R channels the card utilize 4 separate transistors. For the rest a dual transistor is used to save space - two (or coudl that be four?) ones in one.

 Regardless, the removal is rather easy. First get rid of them:







 Then solder a shorts there:











 ...and you are free to test them. As you probably noticed, I for the work desolder the C46 and C27. And also as you sure noticed, I replaced the LM4562 opamps with AD8599 ones.


*The results.*
 After hearing the sound, I was like "Holly ****...!"
 There is no words to describe how much better it sounds. The oversharped thick sound of the LM4562 is gone (LM4562 also like to pick a lot RFI) and the sound is rich and full - and yet more detailed - very likely thanks to these muting transistors removed!

 Fantastic change, damn I'm glad I did it! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





*Side-effects.*
 As everything in life, there is a price for this. Not only this is NOT easy mod (do NOT try that, unless you are soldering MASTER, and I'm not kidding) but it also has consequences. Not only you want to delete all, even the 320kBi mp3 files now, but upon the driver loading in windows boot, there is notable click in the speakers. Same when changing audio mode. Not louder that the amp is set for, so a minor price for such wonderfull, rich sound.
 There is a bigger price and I was quick to discover it.
 I remember it well from measuring the voltages on the caps on X-Fi. When I touch the opamps, well, then the X-Fi started to oscilate like MAD and the resulting sound noise, even on small testing speakers, are unbearable.
 So, to get to it - I plug my rear speakers into the SUB/CENTER jack, so upon discovering that, I was like fixing this. So I unplug the jack... and the moment it started. The X-Fi, no longer protected with these muting transistors, start oscilating like mad. From all 6 speakers it output SO horrible noise and SO strong, that it was like when F18 is about to land on your head.
 I can't remember anything comparable in my life.
 My stepbro run to my room asking What... so you get the picture.
The oscilating noise, when you change your speakers, does not stop till reboot.

 For me it is fair price to pay. I just can't now hotplug the speakers of fiddle with them "on the fly", like I used to. This is kinda sad and limiting, but what one can do. I'm ceratainly not going to put these cursed transistors back, no way. I love the sound now _way_ too much.


----------



## kaducii

Hi, my friend recently modded my SB0460 (XtremeMusic) X-fi card with the 2200uF capacitor mod and the opamp mod (all 4 op amps). Now when I plug the sound card into the computer I get sound but it is mapped weirdly. (I did not change any wires of the actual speakers or anything and they are wired to the correct jacks.) I'm using a 5.1 sound system.

 Here is how the sound maps now
 Default Channel Which speaker sound is actually produced
 Front Left Front Left
 Front Right Rear Right
 Rear Right Rear Left
 Rear Left None
 Center Front Right
 Sub Center

 Obviously something got screwed up on the card. My question is, would something like this be caused by the Opamp not being installed correctly or from another part of the card that may have been damaged during the solder process?

 Thanks for any help.


----------



## Random Murderer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kaducii* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi, my friend recently modded my SB0460 (XtremeMusic) X-fi card with the 2200uF capacitor mod and the opamp mod (all 4 op amps). Now when I plug the sound card into the computer I get sound but it is mapped weirdly. (I did not change any wires of the actual speakers or anything and they are wired to the correct jacks.) I'm using a 5.1 sound system.

 Here is how the sound maps now
 Default Channel Which speaker sound is actually produced
 Front Left Front Left
 Front Right Rear Right
 Rear Right Rear Left
 Rear Left None
 Center Front Right
 Sub Center

 Obviously something got screwed up on the card. My question is, would something like this be caused by the Opamp not being installed correctly or from another part of the card that may have been damaged during the solder process?

 Thanks for any help._

 

it could be that some of the opamps were installed incorrectly, the wrong type of opamps were used, or something even more unlikely.


----------



## Hayduke

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kaducii* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi, my friend recently modded my SB0460 (XtremeMusic) X-fi card with the 2200uF capacitor mod and the opamp mod (all 4 op amps). Now when I plug the sound card into the computer I get sound but it is mapped weirdly. (I did not change any wires of the actual speakers or anything and they are wired to the correct jacks.) I'm using a 5.1 sound system.

 Here is how the sound maps now
 Default Channel Which speaker sound is actually produced
 Front Left Front Left
 Front Right Rear Right
 Rear Right Rear Left
 Rear Left None
 Center Front Right
 Sub Center

 Obviously something got screwed up on the card. My question is, would something like this be caused by the Opamp not being installed correctly or from another part of the card that may have been damaged during the solder process?

 Thanks for any help._

 

I'm trying to imagine anyway that this mod could have caused this. It is most likely related to the op amps. If you double check the polarity (if any) on your caps, that will rule out the possibility of the caps causing the problem. The next question would be which op amps did you use? Maybe you used a single instead of a dual or something? Did you double check the polarity on those too?

 I'm sure someone smarter then me will be able to help you. Good luck


----------



## NoKKiE

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Hayduke* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm trying to imagine anyway that this mod could have caused this. It is most likely related to the op amps. If you double check the polarity (if any) on your caps, that will rule out the possibility of the caps causing the problem. The next question would be which op amps did you use? Maybe you used a single instead of a dual or something? Did you double check the polarity on those too?

 I'm sure someone smarter then me will be able to help you. Good luck 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Hello, I am actually the one who installed the op amps. All the op amps were installed right and I checked it with all the connections with a multimeter. The op amps used were LME49720MA, although on the op amps themselves it only says L49720MA (not sure if that matters, doesn't ME only signify higher quality?). I'm dumbfounded by the problem myself, I thought all of the channels were controlled by separate op amps.

 All the polarities seem right. Do all cards have the op amps point in the same direction?


----------



## Apocalypsee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NoKKiE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hello, I am actually the one who installed the op amps. All the op amps were installed right and I checked it with all the connections with a multimeter. The op amps used were LME49720MA, although on the op amps themselves it only says L49720MA (not sure if that matters, doesn't ME only signify higher quality?). I'm dumbfounded by the problem myself, I thought all of the channels were controlled by separate op amps._

 

Mine wrote L49720 as well, and it plays nicely 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Your problem is weird though, I have no idea what causes that. Good luck with that 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 EDIT: Here is the picture (taken from trodas), note that the holes on the opamp, that denotes pin 1. Make sure yours facing the same way


----------



## trodas

He must got the wires wrong or got a broken vire, because you can't map the Front Right to -> Rear Right. This is impossible to do with simple opamp change. Front Right and Left is done with the first opamp on the top, while the Rear Right is done in the middle opamp from the there ones in line...
 So this is not possible. He swaped the wires and one wire is broken lose. At least I think it is like that...

 Regardless, I have a question. Some smart recommendations for hi-quality the mic input M33078 opamp replacement? (if this is even a opamp, but I think it is...)


----------



## Random Murderer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *trodas* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Regardless, I have a question. Some smart recommendations for hi-quality the mic input M33078 opamp replacement? (if this is even a opamp, but I think it is...)_

 

it is a standard-pinout dual opamp.


----------



## NoKKiE

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *trodas* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_He must got the wires wrong or got a broken vire, because you can't map the Front Right to -> Rear Right. This is impossible to do with simple opamp change. Front Right and Left is done with the first opamp on the top, while the Rear Right is done in the middle opamp from the there ones in line...
 So this is not possible. He swaped the wires and one wire is broken lose. At least I think it is like that...

 Regardless, I have a question. Some smart recommendations for hi-quality the mic input M33078 opamp replacement? (if this is even a opamp, but I think it is...)_

 

I've triple checked all the connections with a multimeter and all the wires are connected to the right place. I have an X-Fi board as well so I used that one as a reference for where the wires should go. 

 The only thing I can think of is the fact that I am using extremely thin wires, would interference cause a problem like that?


----------



## trodas

*Random Murderer* -  Quote:


 *Some smart recommendations for hi-quality the mic input M33078 opamp replacement? (if this is even a opamp, but I think it is...)*

 it is a standard-pinout dual opamp. 
 

You sure? And witch one? Searching for M33078 returned only results like:
http://www.alldatasheet.com/datashee.../ADM3307E.html
 ADM3307E - 15 kV ESD Protected, 2.7 V to 3.6 V Serial Port Transceivers with Green Idle

 ...witch is certainly not the chip we see above.


*NoKKiE* - no, no amount of interference could change your Front Right to -> Rear Right. You must connected the jacks wrongly. And use less thin wires anyway


----------



## Random Murderer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *trodas* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*Random Murderer* - 

 You sure? And witch one? Searching for M33078 returned only results like:
http://www.alldatasheet.com/datashee.../ADM3307E.html
 ADM3307E - 15 kV ESD Protected, 2.7 V to 3.6 V Serial Port Transceivers with Green Idle

 ...witch is certainly not the chip we see above.


*NoKKiE* - no, no amount of interference could change your Front Right to -> Rear Right. You must connected the jacks wrongly. And use less thin wires anyway 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

yea, i'm damn sure.


----------



## NoKKiE

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NoKKiE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've triple checked all the connections with a multimeter and all the wires are connected to the right place. I have an X-Fi board as well so I used that one as a reference for where the wires should go. 

 The only thing I can think of is the fact that I am using extremely thin wires, would interference cause a problem like that?_

 

I seem to have fixed it and everything runs fine now. I cleaned up some solder that was connecting the 12V connection to the connection right next to it (not on the op amp, the other thing). I used my multimeter and it seemed they linked together anyways so I didn't bother cleaning it up earlier. I did it just out of completeness and all the problems went away... heh. Thanks for all the help guys!


----------



## kaducii

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NoKKiE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I seem to have fixed it and everything runs fine now. I cleaned up some solder that was connecting the 12V connection to the connection right next to it (not on the op amp, the other thing). I used my multimeter and it seemed they linked together anyways so I didn't bother cleaning it up earlier. I did it just out of completeness and all the problems went away... heh. Thanks for all the help guys!_

 

Yup, thanks for all the help! Too bad I thought it was hopeless and went ahead and ordered a Xonar D2 anyways. =(


----------



## Hayduke

I'm glad you figured it out!

 I'm not faulting you, but one of the first steps in troubleshooting something like this should have been to reflow all the solder joints. At least that's what I do. I flood the area in flux and just make each leg look shiny. Then it just takes some alcohol and a little time with the brush to make everything pretty


----------



## yzriver

Just wondering whether I can upgrade the I/O bay of X-Fi platinum. The bay has two boards, of which the top one is for digital out, the bottom one includes the headphone out and line-in. So I show the bottom board here. When I look the board, I can immediately think of replacing the JRC 4556A with a better OPAMP, such as LM4562, or any better one if you could suggest. However, I can’t guess which capacitors needed to change for coupling and power filtering. Could you please take a look at it? I attached the pictures. Thank you.

 I am also wonder it is a good idea to mod the I/O bay, since there is a long data bus from sound card to the bay’s board. There is big path for the EMI enter the data bus. Will it create a lot of noise? I am interested in mod the I/O bay because I would like to use it for headphone amplifier for good quality music, while listen the regular sound with the speakers from the line out of the sound card.


----------



## trodas

Of course there IS a much better one that picky LM4562 - AD8599!

 Just check there for the results: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f6/x-f...91/index5.html

 Add shielding to the cables and to the bay too, use the TI shield material, I seen it in Percy's Audio site for reasonable price. Shield both EMI and RFI well.


----------



## yzriver

How much is the DC supply on board to the 4556A and 4558C on X-Fi platinum? if it is only +-5V, maybe it is not enough for AD8599, which requires +-9~36V


----------



## trodas

Have a bit of faith, will ya? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 We tested that already and X-Fi Fatal1ty supply only +/- 5V to them. I using them NOW and I'm more that happy.

 Regardless, the +/- 5V might sound as "not meeting the specs", but if you read the datasheet you actually notice that this is 10V - both these voltages have to be added into the calculation, so we are at 10V and we are fine, well within the specs. Near lower range, true. But you can always and easily tweak up the 7805 / 7905 output voltages. You sure know that. It is just a matter of two resistors... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Analog Devices: AD8599: Dual, Ultralow Distortion, Ultralow Noise Op Amp :: Operational Amplifiers (Op Amps) :: Amplifiers and Comparators


----------



## yzriver

Trodas:

 what is 7805/7905? Can I increase the bias by tuning some resistors?

 I want to comfirm the bias to a OPAMP.
 For example, for the AD8599, +5 to V+ and -5 toV- is the same as 10V to V+ and ground to V-?

 thank you.


----------



## trodas

The 7805 / 7905 is well-known fixed voltage regulators. (sidenote - if you don't know what 7805 is, then you should not even consider moding the card, you are messing with things w/o knowing what they are, that could end up pretty bad...) However their output voltage can be easily adjusted by just a simple two resistors voltage divider, increasing the voltage on the chip "common ground" and since it trying to stabilize the voltage to the fixed amount between output and common ground, then you can easily regulate/modify the output voltage...
 Just check the datasheed for many and many and many examples how to use these fantastic chips: http://www.st.com/stonline/products/...143/l7812c.pdf

 Bias to opamp? I would say opamp operating voltage...
 And yes and no.
 Yes for the calculation of the minimal operating voltage, but you have that mentioned already in the pdf datasheet I linked there. Please read materials first, before asking.
 No for the results. Powering opamp from +/- voltage yield better results, especially in higher frequency of the audio spectrum.

 And since these opamps are in the pre-amp stage, then there anything has a HUGE impact on the results.

 Hope that helps.


 PS: Digi-key stated the obvious quite clearly too:
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/Dk...AD8599&x=0&y=0
 You see? Single voltage - 9 V ~ 36 V, required. But - double voltage supply: ±4.5 V ~ 18 V 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I hope all is clear now.

 PS2. I somewhere suggested that the input opamp (MC33078) should be replaced too. Good choice seems to be again the AD8599 - but hold your horses! This time the opamp is powered from +5V only (the leg 8), leg 4 is NOT connected to the -5V as all other opamps there - but to ground. Hence this one is getting only 5V. AD8599 require by specs at least 9V. I'm affraid that it will not work good there... time to find another opamp, +5V capable one


----------



## X-MAN

I was hotrodding my X-Fi and got a blob of solder on the 3rd. resistor (counting top down, to the left of the main OPAMP)
 Its value, I assume, is the same as the other three, 33ohms.
 The problem is that I totally wacked the solder pads and can't find where to connect a replacement resistor.
 Does anyone know where the ends of that resistor go to so that I can solder in a standard 33ohm 1% resistor?
 THANKS for any help!!


----------



## X-MAN

OK found it. Fixed it, and you guys were spot on ! 
 The sound improvement is truly enough to make your eyes water.
 I'm glad I found this place.


----------



## trodas

Digi-key offer many resistors. 1% 33 Ohm is not a problem, even in the very very small size...


----------



## Lokonsky

Hi Trodas
 I'm still courius with your project to cure the -200mV offset.
 Well maybe this can fresh your memories,this is what you write in that thread:
 use TWO resistors and create a voltage divider on the output of the L7805 chip that feed the required 0.2V to the common ground and you got your 5.2V on the opamps witch might (or might not) cure the -200mV offset.
 still waiting for your answer because maybe it's not safe to remove the coupling capacitor


----------



## Kuze

So how are the mods going with the new Creative drivers ?


----------



## Lokonsky

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Kuze* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So how are the mods going with the new Creative drivers ?_

 

Bad!! I download yesterday and compare with my old YouP-Pax 5.25 driver (I have 2 bootable windows so i can easly spot the diffrence). With the new driver the bass is seem gone (it so deep with youp-pax and i often check my sub if it's on) and boomy. Tested with Lisa Ekdahl on music and "warrior of heaven and earth" on movie, it took 5 minutes to get rid my new driver...


----------



## ashy79

hi.. any chances anyone's keeping close-shot of elite-pro's PCB trace for front opamp? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 thx in advance


----------



## Apocalypsee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ashy79* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_hi.. any chances anyone's keeping close-shot of elite-pro's PCB trace for front opamp? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 thx in advance_

 

You can look here. Its not mine, I take it from bichi


----------



## trodas

*Lokonsky* -  Quote:


 I'm still courius with your project to cure the -200mV offset. 
 

Too bussy right now - and the offset is not important at all.
 Not unless you are crazy, like me, and want to remove even the input coupling caps in your amp...

  Quote:


 Well maybe this can fresh your memories,this is what you write in that thread: use TWO resistors and create a voltage divider on the output of the L7805 chip that feed the required 0.2V to the common ground and you got your 5.2V on the opamps witch might (or might not) cure the -200mV offset 
 

Yep, that is what I write. I'm not sure, if this is right, or if this can work, tough. It was just an idea. I gotta ask, if one can manipulate with the offset this way.
 Another question is, if the offset is not comming from the DAC itself...

  Quote:


 still waiting for your answer because maybe it's not safe to remove the coupling capacitor 
 

Maybe it is not safe to live on Earth 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Got my point?
 Nothing is safe, my friend. However the X-Fi did not have by default ANY cap between the opamps output and the jacks. So...

 And the main point is, that the offset is neutralized on the amplifier input coupling caps. So nothing to worry about.

 Unless you have custom amp with stripped input coupling caps, then you have absolutely nothing to worry about. It can only make your sound nicer and more detailed.

 PS. even in some cases the input caps in the amplifier aren't need to be there, depending on the amp input opamps and their gain versus voltage. If the gain is low and voltages high, the DC offset is just amplified like the rest of the signal and that it is. No clipping happen then. But it is wise to let one last couplig caps to have in the input of power amplifier... if you did not want end up with like 16V DC offset on the speakers


----------



## Lokonsky

Thanks for your explanation trodas 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 dumb question: how i measured this dc offset? i see people write -200mV and 10 mV what that is mean? Yep, maybe it's safe for my amp but MAYBE not for my headphone...sorry but i very-very new in this 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Other thing, is it good to use solid capacitor in C16,C46 and C72 (470uF/6.3v)?
 Thanks before


----------



## ashy79

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Apocalypsee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You can look here. Its not mine, I take it from bichi_

 

thanks guys! it's been really helpful


----------



## trodas

*X-Fi output DC offset measuring with original UK X-Fi, no heatsink and L+R channel NJM4556 opamp, rest NJM4558 opamps*
 ---------------------------------------------------------------
 L: 29.9mV DC, 9.8mV AC
 R: 29.6mV DC, 9.8mV AC
 RL: 0mV DC, 9.8mV AC
 RR: 0mV DC, 9.8mV AC
 CENTER: 0.2mV DC, 9.6mV AC
 SW: 0.2mV DC, 9.7mV AC


*X-Fi output DC offset measuring with LM4562 opamps*
 ---------------------------------------------------------------
 L: -190mV DC, 10mV AC
 R: -174mV DC, 10.2mV AC
 RL: -210.2mV DC, 10.1mV AC
 RR: -204.7mV DC, 10mV AC
 CENTER: -209.5mV DC, 10mV AC
 SW: -231.9mV DC, 10.2mV AC


*X-Fi output DC offset measuring with AD8599 opamps*
 ---------------------------------------------------------------
 L: -219mV DC, 9.5mV AC
 R: -205mV DC, 9.8mV AC
 RL: -209mV DC, 9.7mV AC
 RR: -205mV DC, 9.3mV AC
 CENTER: -210mV DC, 9.6mV AC
 SW: -232mV DC, 9.7mV AC

 The 9 - 10mV AC is a classic noise, around 5kHz. What is interesting is the VERY LOW DC offset on RL/RR as well as on CENTER/SUB channels of the original X-Fi (yours), while the L/R show around 30mV of DC offset, so not perfect at all, even at default. Looks like the X-Fi electronic design is perfectly finetuned for a NJM4558 (very low, next to none DC offset), while any other opamp is a problem there.

 I think I should short the coupling caps between DAC and opamps first and then measure DC offset again with the original 4558 opamps...


*Lokonsky* -  Quote:


 how i measured this dc offset? 
 

I did using my scope, you have to do the very same.

  Quote:


 i see people write -200mV and 10 mV what that is mean? 
 

Value in milivolts (1/100 of V) that represent the value of DC offset on the outputs.

  Quote:


 Yep, maybe it's safe for my amp but MAYBE not for my headphone...sorry but i very-very new in this 
 

Well, I tested it for couple of days and it worked fine with my headphones, so... it will with yours too.

  Quote:


 Other thing, is it good to use solid capacitor in C16,C46 and C72 (470uF/6.3v)? 
 

Definitively not. I have couple that will fit there nicely and they pack a good deal more ripple current that the Samxon GD 470uF 6.3V d6.3, but polymers are very special caps, optimizes for high (way too high for audio, let's talk about 100kHz and more) operating frequency and they suxx BADLY at low frequency in the audio range.
 For example a electrolyte cap Samxon GA has - as most others and polymers too - it's max allowable ripple current stated for 100kHz. At different frequency, there are different multipliers that need to be applied to the rated current to get the max allowable rupple current of that frequency. For 120Hz the multiplier is 0.5 ... However for polymer caps, and they are pretty much all the same, is the multiplier 0.05 (!!!) - Samxon ULR as well as all others (some has even lower multiplier...)...

 So you see, using polymers are very specific and are NOT RECOMMENDED AT ALL for any audio applications at all. I always laugh my ***** off at the polymer-only soundcards or mainboard using polymers for audio... but, well...

 So as you can clearly see, polymers with the multiplier 0.05 has no chance in 120Hz (and let's not even mention 50Hz). So *polymers are good for output phase of hi-frequency VRM circuits and nowhere else. This nicely demonstrating and confirming the design of Intel D955XCS mainboard - or the overclockers mobo Intel D975XBX "Bad Axe":*


----------



## Lokonsky

GREAT INFO TRODAS
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






 I wonder why auzentech use it in prelude...
 if i don't use solid cap,is it good (in audio quality) to change value from (470uF/6.3v) to (470uF/10v) in C16,C46 and C72 and nichichon fine gold in C177 because it's hard to find good cap in my country.thanks


----------



## trodas

Aurentech use solid polymer (as many of the makers) because of pure marketing only. Even the results are WAY worser with them, they want the "all solid caps only, bla bla bla" slogan to be pushed as if that is mean reliability.
 Sadly, for most braniwashed users with experience only with bad caps, it does sound appealing. They never yet encountered a fake / bad brand polymer... nevermind.

 About the cap - first at all, you give me no info about the Nichicon cap type, so I can't judge. But probably on HZ line oust the Samxon GD, so...

 So not, definitively not. Higher voltage cap = worser specs running on low voltage that the low voltage one running very near its nominal voltage. These caps are VERY important to the audio result. Way more that the C177 for the main chip. Funny that everyone seems to go after him alone, lol. Another example of utter stupidity.
 So, if you ask about cap, give the exact type or no-one can help ya.


----------



## Lokonsky

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *trodas* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 About the cap - first at all, you give me no info about the Nichicon cap type, so I can't judge. But probably on HZ line oust the Samxon GD, so...

 So not, definitively not. Higher voltage cap = worser specs running on low voltage that the low voltage one running very near its nominal voltage. These caps are VERY important to the audio result. Way more that the C177 for the main chip. Funny that everyone seems to go after him alone, lol. Another example of utter stupidity.
 So, if you ask about cap, give the exact type or no-one can help ya._

 

i have no problem with c177, Nichicon fine gold 1000uF/6.3v is VERY good cap for audio.It's C16,C46 and C72,I have to choose between Panasonic ceb 470/10v or nichicon 1000uF/6.3v (overkill but it's the right voltage) ...and yes that the only option for me.


----------



## trodas

*Hardware question.*

 I bought my X-Fi Fatal1ty in USA, and it have heatsink on main chip and the *DC coupling caps between DAC and opamps* are *Jamicon 22uF 16V*.

 Now I moded friend X-Fi Fatal1ty card, it did not have heatsink on main chip and the *DC coupling caps between DAC and opamps* are *Wincap 10uF 16V* ones.

 Question - what are yours caps there?


----------



## Lokonsky

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *trodas* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*Hardware question.*

 I bought my X-Fi Fatal1ty in USA, and it have heatsink on main chip and the *DC coupling caps between DAC and opamps* are *Jamicon 22uF 16V*.

 Now I moded friend X-Fi Fatal1ty card, it did not have heatsink on main chip and the *DC coupling caps between DAC and opamps* are *Wincap 10uF 16V* ones.

 Question - what are yours caps there?





_

 

Same as yours, heatsink version. Non Heatsink version is an old version & buggy on some mobo (nVidia mostly), it used old BIOS that design to run on PCI-E 1x so poping and cracking happend.


----------



## Tez

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Lokonsky* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Same as yours, heatsink version. Non Heatsink version is an old version & buggy on some mobo (nVidia mostly), it used old BIOS that design to run on PCI-E 1x so poping and cracking happend._

 






 I have the old version and didn't know this. However, I must confess to never having any of these problems


----------



## Lokonsky

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Tez* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_





 I have the old version and didn't know this. However, I must confess to never having any of these problems 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

did i say 'some' 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 , well lucky you not join with the people in creative forum with 'poping and crackling' issue...and this problem STILL exist until now.
 And what the creative says? It's not our fault that the Mobo chipset is not compatible with our card. Oh well...


----------



## Random Murderer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *trodas* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*Hardware question.*

 I bought my X-Fi Fatal1ty in USA, and it have heatsink on main chip and the *DC coupling caps between DAC and opamps* are *Jamicon 22uF 16V*.

 Now I moded friend X-Fi Fatal1ty card, it did not have heatsink on main chip and the *DC coupling caps between DAC and opamps* are *Wincap 10uF 16V* ones.

 Question - what are yours caps there?




_

 

my friend's card has 16v 22uF jamicons and no heatsink.


----------



## Lokonsky

one more thing my cap are G-Luxon and my board have video-in connector layout...hmmm i wonder what is for...


----------



## LtFransky

Ok, I need advice. I replaced the 4 op amps (and put in a Blackgate cap) on a guys X-Fi elite pro (0550) with LM4562's. The front and rear channels sound amazing, but the centre/sub channel is completely distorted (as if the person was standing too close to a mic with the volume cranked). When I checked the card itself, nothing seemed awry, but I re-replaced U19 anyway. The same thing happened. I'm stumped. The traces seem ok and none of the surrounding parts got melted, so I'm open to suggestions. Help.


----------



## Salvador

Bump....

 Someone please chime in, i beg of you all!

 This card is actually mine 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LtFransky* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ok, I need advice. I replaced the 4 op amps (and put in a Blackgate cap) on a guys X-Fi elite pro (0550) with LM4562's. The front and rear channels sound amazing, but the centre/sub channel is completely distorted (as if the person was standing too close to a mic with the volume cranked). When I checked the card itself, nothing seemed awry, but I re-replaced U19 anyway. The same thing happened. I'm stumped. The traces seem ok and none of the surrounding parts got melted, so I'm open to suggestions. Help._


----------



## Random Murderer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Salvador* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Bump....

 Someone please chime in, i beg of you all!

 This card is actually mine 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

might be a bad opamp.


----------



## Salvador

Thanks for the reply RandomMurderer.

 When I gave the soundcard to LtFranksy, I included 5 opamps (3 LM4562MA and 2 LME49860MA). 

 There was a spare opamp and based on the post above, I think he already replaced the sub/center opamp with the spare when he said "re-replaced U19 anyway".

 Just to add more details to the problem when I was testing the card: 

 -I tried to play music and I could hear it faintly playing over the loud static/distortion sound coming from the center 

 - I noticed that when rebooting the pc the center channel would have a 'popping' sound but the other channels would not have this pop. Before the mod, none of the speakers would pop on reboot.



  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Random Murderer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_might be a bad opamp._


----------



## Salvador

hey franksy i was trying to dig up on every imaginable x-fi mod thread and I actually found something interesting:

The X-Meridian 7.1 Thread - Page 62 - AVS Forum

 It's actually in the meridian thread. The guy had the same buzzing/noise symptoms and apparently he soldered the opamp in reverse. Maybe this is the case with the center/sub opamp in my x-fi?


----------



## Salvador

.


----------



## Random Murderer

is there any way you can take a picture of the area the opamps are in?


----------



## Awake77

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Salvador* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_hey franksy i was trying to dig up on every imaginable x-fi mod thread and I actually found something interesting:

The X-Meridian 7.1 Thread - Page 62 - AVS Forum

 It's actually in the meridian thread. The guy had the same buzzing/noise symptoms and apparently he soldered the opamp in reverse. Maybe this is the case with the center/sub opamp in my x-fi?_

 

I had this happen when I first tried modding my X-Fi Fatal1ty - turned out to be a cold solder joint on one of the op-amps.

 BTW - I did this mod about a year ago, but only today did I finally get a chance to run my X-Fi into a good amp and set of speakers! Prior to this, I was living in a small apartment and was pretty much listening through headphones.

 All I can say is...holy crap!

 The X-Fi is running into my old Yamaha RX-V870 which is driving a pair of Cerwin Vega E712's, and a pair of Paradigm Micro v3's. Very impressed!! 

 Thanks again to the OP for the outstanding tutorial.


----------



## m0t

I just thought I'd register and say thanks for the guide. I did mine today and it took me about 20 minutes, cost was £10 for the parts so I am happy overall.


----------



## Super_Guy

Does the LME49720MA opamp work on x-fi??
 Its the only one opamp i can get..


----------



## Random Murderer

yes it does.


----------



## Super_Guy

Ok, Thanks for answers. appreciate it much.

 i wonder one thing to, will a cheapy panasonic capacitor work better then the orginal on x-fi? will it performe much weaker compare to Blackgates ones in that case?

 Specs:
 Application:Audio; Capacitance:1000µF; Tolerance, capacitance:±20%; Series:AM; Voltage, rating:16V dc; Capacitor dielectric type:Aluminium Electrolytic; Case style:Radial; Pitch, lead:5mm; Tempera;


----------



## fierce_freak

I'm probably going to finally mod my X-Fi. Are the instructions laid out in the first post still considered the best mods to do, or has that evolved in the past 185 pages?


----------



## Apocalypsee

Guys, I wanted to ask, is it worth to upgrade from X-Fi XtremeMusic to Elite Pro? Because I can get Elite Pro for very cheap price, don't recommend any other card please. I want people who actually test both cards

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Super_Guy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ok, Thanks for answers. appreciate it much.

 i wonder one thing to, will a cheapy panasonic capacitor work better then the orginal on x-fi? will it performe much weaker compare to Blackgates ones in that case?

 Specs:
 Application:Audio; Capacitance:1000µF; Tolerance, capacitance:±20%; Series:AM; Voltage, rating:16V dc; Capacitor dielectric type:Aluminium Electrolytic; Case style:Radial; Pitch, lead:5mm; Tempera;_

 

I guess it will be an upgrade from stock caps

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fierce_freak* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm probably going to finally mod my X-Fi. Are the instructions laid out in the first post still considered the best mods to do, or has that evolved in the past 185 pages?_

 

There are lots of other mod you can do, but the front page is the mod that brings the best audible sound difference


----------



## Random Murderer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Super_Guy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ok, Thanks for answers. appreciate it much.

 i wonder one thing to, will a cheapy panasonic capacitor work better then the orginal on x-fi? will it performe much weaker compare to Blackgates ones in that case?

 Specs:
 Application:Audio; Capacitance:1000µF; Tolerance, capacitance:±20%; Series:AM; Voltage, rating:16V dc; Capacitor dielectric type:Aluminium Electrolytic; Case style:Radial; Pitch, lead:5mm; Tempera;_

 

in the case of the power filter cap, your best bet is to NOT get an audio cap. see if you can find a solid polymer cap instead, it will reduce ripple the most and last the longest.


----------



## fierce_freak

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Apocalypsee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There are lots of other mod you can do, but the front page is the mod that brings the best audible sound difference_

 

Cool, thanks Apocalypsee. Could you give me a brief description of any other mods if you have time? Thanks in advance if you can


----------



## Apocalypsee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fierce_freak* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Cool, thanks Apocalypsee. Could you give me a brief description of any other mods if you have time? Thanks in advance if you can 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Other mods that I know (and some tested)
 - bypass muting transistor
 - recap the whole card
 - remove unneeded caps

 Look at trodas thread here for the mods I mentioned. Maybe other more mods you can do, but I'll add here if I remember/found them


----------



## Salvador

To summarize:

 - got it modded by some guy locally (LTFransky)

 - replaced all opamps with LM4562MA and LME49860MA opamps.

 - upgraded cap

 - all channels work fine except for center/sub. There's a loud sound that I can best describe as someone blowing to a mic. If you play something you can still hear what's playing although it's faint.

 - Also i was using with just the two front channels, it would play fine but it would randomly just lose sound and sometimes crash the pc. After a reboot it's ok again.


----------



## Salvador

anybody?


----------



## sgrossklass

Sounds like the opamp for center/sub is oscillating. Soldering should be double-checked. Ditto for buffer caps on voltages affecting the X-Fi chip.


----------



## robert.e

Hi everyone,

 This thread has been a very interesting read 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Salvador, I think your problem with the card dying randomly could be caused by the large capacitor by the DSP. I know someone in this forum said that there is no benefit increasing the capacitance to over about 470uF, since that part of the circuit only powers the DSP and therefore shouldn't influence the analogue sound of the card. 

 I tried most of the mods in this forum just to find out for myself what the effect on sound is. Replacing the power cap by a 3300uF one caused my computer not to boot, a 1100uF one caused the soundcard not to be detected in windows. Another 220uF in parallel with the old one (440uF total) worked but had no discernible effect on the sound.

 I built a relay circuit so that I could switch between 3 audio channels on the fly. I used it to switch between the front L/R and rear L/R output of the soundcard to the front L/R input on my amplifier. (HK AVR140, Wharfedale Diamond 9.5's, Sennheiser HD202). Set all speakers to large. Set the CMSS-3D surround to Stereo Surround with center balancing, to get the same sound going to the front and rear channels.

 Firstly I bridged out the DC-decoupling caps between the DAC and the front channel opamp, but not on the other opamps. Found that I couldn't detect a difference in sound at all. (Tested listening to MP3's and Music DVD's (192Khz Stereo PCM, AC3Filter), headphones and speakers, and switching between the channels during playback for immediate comparison). This also created a DC offset of about 180mV.

 I then replaced the front channel opamp (4556 - X-fi extrememusic) with a NS LME49722, which is a drop in replacement for the 4562 and compared the sound of this opamp to the remaining 4558's on the card. 

 I was really hoping to hear a difference, but alas, I can for the life of me, on my equipment, not hear the slightest difference. And that's not because I'm deaf either 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 In the end I replaced all the opamps with the LME's, just for conformity and the fact that these chips have better specs across the board than the old opamps, and the LME's have no problems driving my HD202's directly. Oh and it was fun to do 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Oh and Salvador, looking at the pics you posted, it looks like the opamps and the surrounding components might have gotten more heat than they should have... don't know if there's anything you can do about it now though.


----------



## sgrossklass

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *robert.e* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Salvador, I think your problem with the card dying randomly could be caused by the large capacitor by the DSP. I know someone in this forum said that there is no benefit increasing the capacitance to over about 470uF, since that part of the circuit only powers the DSP and therefore shouldn't influence the analogue sound of the card. 

 I tried most of the mods in this forum just to find out for myself what the effect on sound is. Replacing the power cap by a 3300uF one caused my computer not to boot, a 1100uF one caused the soundcard not to be detected in windows. Another 220uF in parallel with the old one (440uF total) worked but had no discernible effect on the sound._

 

I'd guess that the series inductance and resulting bad performance at high freqs when using much bigger 'lytics wreaks havoc with DSP stability. I would recommend to either:
 1. slap on a ceramic bypass cap of like 4µ7..10µ on the back of the card (even if you decide to keep the original 220µ), which should not only fix the stability issues when using pointlessly large caps but also reduce power dissipation inside the electrolytic (as the high freqs are kept off), which in turn would thank it with a longer life.
 OR
 2. replace that 220µ with a solid-state electrolytic (e.g. Sanyo OS-CON) if you can get hold of 'em. Lower ESR, longer life.

 Solid-state 'lytics would make equally good replacements for other buffer caps but by no means should be used as coupling caps, as their high leakage current kills them for this application (Sanyo explicitly warns about this).


----------



## robert.e

Hi sgrossklass, thank you for the advice. The reason I tried those specific caps was because I had them lying around. In the beginning of this thread a lot of people seemed convinced that the bigger the cap there, the better the sound... I wasn't convinced of this and had to try it for myself 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I think I'm done with the card now and I'll keep the original cap in there.


----------



## Salvador

Thanks for the advice guys. It seems like LTFranksy didn't do to well of a job soldering the opamps. 

 I handed of the card to someone with more experience. I'll let him know about what you guys said.


----------



## Lokonsky

I put wrong cap in X-Fi (1000uF 6.3v nichicon FG) in c74 (12 V) and strangely enough i can play movies and songs fine!!!! It's really 12 v or do i miss something?


----------



## ROYALLOTS

How i may contact admin this site? I have a question.
 iijiivei


----------



## uhcmos1

I only have 3 LM opamps. As I am using 5.1 speakers, do you know which of the 3 surround op-amps should I replace?


----------



## nfm

2x OPA637*B*P, Rubycon Black Gate NX 1500uF 10v:







 DAC / Front OPAMP / Crystal Clock recap awaiting 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
 I should be also getting Yamaha HTR-6130 receiver soon. I have 2x sick bookshelf speakers on old amp atm.

 OPA637 is without a doubt best OPAMP out there, it sounds just perfect.


----------



## _Spanky_

Is there someone willing to mod my X-Fi? PM me if you are interested. I would prefer someone in the US.


----------



## nfm

Does anyone know alternative soldering spots for muted transistors?

 The red dots is where the pcb ripped off:





 I'm guessing the green dots would alternative spots?


----------



## sonci

Does anybody know what is the mapping of the second Opamp(just below of L-R one), what channels does it control.
 While removing the old opamp, I removed the solder pad underneath one of the pins. Now, one of the pins of the new opamp, remains without contact. Is there a way to save my xFi?


----------



## Lokonsky

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *-Spanky-* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is there someone willing to mod my X-Fi? PM me if you are interested. I would prefer someone in the US._

 

Find a handphone technician, they are good at small part and use a blower solder.


----------



## _Spanky_

Actually, Random Murderer found me. I hope to get some extra moneys and send my card off to him 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I have no idea where a handphone technician would be near me.


----------



## um2802

The subject : Xfi Titanium Fatality Professional PCI-Express.
 What can change on it ?
 Sugestion, advice, tips & tricks .....
 Thank you.


----------



## Random Murderer

looks like you could change the op-amps and coupling caps pretty quickly.


----------



## um2802

Which one ?
 What pick from AD 8599 or AD 8066 or LM 4562 ?
 The caps - what type and brand ?
 THX


----------



## Lokonsky

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *um2802* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Which one ?
 What pick from AD 8599 or AD 8066 or LM 4562 ?
 The caps - what type and brand ?
 THX_

 

I use 3 diffrent opamp in my x-fi AD8599 for front (the best n expesive one), AD8066 for center/sub (softer then ad8599 but give more bass) and LM4562 (too Sharp for music but it's the cheapest one) for surround..it's your call, every one have their own taste 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 For the cap i use Nichicon FG...well at least it's all i got 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 If you want the best, use Rubycon ZL for c177, Elna cerafine II for coupling (soften your sound - or short it for as-is sound), Panasonic FM for c46,c72 and Sanyo OSCON for c119


----------



## um2802

All that 3 op-amp are compatible pin to pin with IC from Xfi board ?
 And for that model of XFi what IC is for what ? ( front / rear / cen + sub / side )


----------



## Fizzycapola

Normally the 2nd chip from the top. Don't bother unless you're a soldering genius though. I've been soldering things since I was 8 and I wouldn't attempt it, so many things that can go wrong, especially if life doesn't want you to do a good job.


----------



## Lokonsky

Quote:


 All that 3 op-amp are compatible pin to pin with IC from Xfi board ? 
 

Yup, no additional socket needed
  Quote:


 And for that model of XFi what IC is for what ? ( front / rear / cen + sub / side ) 
 

front:ad8599
 cent+sub:AD8066
 surround: LM4562


----------



## um2802

OK , but this model of XFi had 4 IC with 5 jack's ( see pic ).
 The XFi normal ( on PCI ) had 3 IC for front / cent+ sub / surround and 1 IC for mic input ( and 4 jack's ). 
 At this model ( PCI-E ) who is who ?


----------



## Lokonsky

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *um2802* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_OK , but this model of XFi had 4 IC with 5 jack's ( see pic ).
 The XFi normal ( on PCI ) had 3 IC for front / cent+ sub / surround and 1 IC for mic input ( and 4 jack's ). 
 At this model ( PCI-E ) who is who ?_

 

I don't own PCI-E version but from the pic of yours seems the output op-amp is in the line because in front of them there's muting transistor (the little tiny ic) , front is the top one, then 2 surround, center/sub is bellow. You can always trace them with multi-tester and FYI all X-FI has 4 output op-amp no matter their version are...


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *um2802* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The subject : Xfi Titanium Fatality Professional PCI-Express.
 What can change on it ?
 Sugestion, advice, tips & tricks .....
 Thank you._

 

It looks more or less like the same thing as the PCI version... so the guide to mod this PCI-E version would be more or less the same.


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sonci* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does anybody know what is the mapping of the second Opamp(just below of L-R one), what channels does it control.
 While removing the old opamp, I removed the solder pad underneath one of the pins. Now, one of the pins of the new opamp, remains without contact. Is there a way to save my xFi?_

 

Yes it is very easy to fix if you have a multimeter and trace it. All the pins go to either some SMD resistor or capacitor.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fierce_freak* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm probably going to finally mod my X-Fi. Are the instructions laid out in the first post still considered the best mods to do, or has that evolved in the past 185 pages?_

 

I'm in the process of updating it right now with some additional mods. They weren't the "best" mods even back when i wrote it, but short of anything really extreme (high-slew-rate opamps, discrete output, "stacking", etc.) I would still recommend them.


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Lokonsky* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I put wrong cap in X-Fi (1000uF 6.3v nichicon FG) in c74 (12 V) and strangely enough i can play movies and songs fine!!!! It's really 12 v or do i miss something?_

 

5V caps are enough


----------



## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *trodas* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*Side-effects.*
 As everything in life, there is a price for this. Not only this is NOT easy mod (do NOT try that, unless you are soldering MASTER, and I'm not kidding) but it also has consequences. Not only you want to delete all, even the 320kBi mp3 files now, but upon the driver loading in windows boot, there is notable click in the speakers. Same when changing audio mode. Not louder that the amp is set for, so a minor price for such wonderfull, rich sound.
 There is a bigger price and I was quick to discover it.
 I remember it well from measuring the voltages on the caps on X-Fi. When I touch the opamps, well, then the X-Fi started to oscilate like MAD and the resulting sound noise, even on small testing speakers, are unbearable.
 So, to get to it - I plug my rear speakers into the SUB/CENTER jack, so upon discovering that, I was like fixing this. So I unplug the jack... and the moment it started. The X-Fi, no longer protected with these muting transistors, start oscilating like mad. From all 6 speakers it output SO horrible noise and SO strong, that it was like when F18 is about to land on your head.
 I can't remember anything comparable in my life.
 My stepbro run to my room asking What... so you get the picture.
The oscilating noise, when you change your speakers, does not stop till reboot._

 

Were you using the AD8599? Those are not as stable as the LM4562, and can oscillate very easily.


----------



## noinimod

Hey guys, i'm on a klipsch gmx with xfi xtrememusic. Am i gonna see a huge increase in audio quality? I've got someone near my area who does this mod, was wondering if it's worth the money.


----------



## Random Murderer

i doubt it. active speakers such as those have a built in amplifier and you'll see a bigger improvement(albeit still not enough to bother with) from modding the speakers' amp.


----------



## arfett

I found a better way to hotrod your X-FI!

Auzentech, Inc. X-Fi Home Theater HD : World First soundcards for Music, HTPC, and Gaming.


----------



## astral_warrior

Hi, I want to mod my audigy 4 oem, audigy2 and zs cards. Please help me choose the capacitors to change. I don't intend on changing the op-amps, just some capacitors to make these more stable and such... So I've seen advice on audigy se too, that's why I'm asking.


----------



## Random Murderer

try panasonic FM series caps.


----------



## h.monay

What is the difference between the

 AD8599ARZ
 AD8599ARZ-REEL
 AD8599ARZ-REEL7

Analog Devices: AD8599: Dual, Ultralow Distortion, Ultralow Noise Op Amp :: Operational Amplifiers (Op Amps) :: Amplifiers and Comparators


----------



## Random Murderer

i would guess packaging, as in the latter 2 come in reels to be placed in manufacturing machines.


----------



## juswyq

****..... Guys.. I think i really screwed up my xfi xtrememusic card.

 While trying to remove the original opamp for L/R channel I accidentally scraped off the two of the eight contacts on the circuit board.. Now there are only 6 contacts for the 8 pins of the opamp. (Now sound only plays on the left channel)

 Is there any way to remedy this or is my soundcard doomed to oblivion? This really sucks, i bought the soundcard when it was way expensive 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 A solution i can think of is to modify the drivers to route all L/R signals to another jack so that i dont have to use the L/R jack. Then I can replace another channel's opamp.

 HELP GUYS!!!! Thanks!


----------



## godbreath

Just wondering, where do you guys buy the ERS paper?
 And also, it says that the ERS shielding is conductive and that he put something underneath it. What did he put underneath it?


----------



## zha50

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *juswyq* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_****..... Guys.. I think i really screwed up my xfi xtrememusic card.


 Is there any way to remedy this or is my soundcard doomed to oblivion? This really sucks, i bought the soundcard when it was way expensive 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			






 HELP GUYS!!!! Thanks!_

 

Just trace the track back to a pad, then run a thin insulated wire from that point to the corresponding leg on the OPAMP.


----------



## meiosis

hi, anyone here mod the Audigy2 ZS platinum pro [SB0360]

 just swapped the op amp but have no clue which caps to replace or remove. thanks in advance


----------



## Random Murderer

do you have any pics?
 i have an audigy 2 zs i modded, if it's the same layout then i can help you. Quote:


  Originally Posted by *meiosis* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_hi, anyone here mod the Audigy2 ZS platinum pro [SB0360]

 just swapped the op amp but have no clue which caps to replace or remove. thanks in advance_


----------



## ZOMGVTEK




----------



## ZOMGVTEK




----------



## simonmpoulton

Ok well i tried the operation on my card today but unfortunately since i decided to unsolder the old Op-Amp i managed to pull off one of the tracks. Do i just need to trace the track back and solder a wire onto the corresponding pin on the new op-amp or is there something else i need to do?


----------



## Random Murderer

you could try that. cross your fingers that the trace you lifted doesn't cross a via before the point it tore off...


----------



## goldrogers

Is anyone tired of their *modded* x-fi soundcard or ready for an upgrade and want to sell theirs?


----------



## bichi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *juswyq* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_****..... Guys.. I think i really screwed up my xfi xtrememusic card.

 While trying to remove the original opamp for L/R channel I accidentally scraped off the two of the eight contacts on the circuit board.. Now there are only 6 contacts for the 8 pins of the opamp. (Now sound only plays on the left channel)... HELP GUYS!!!! Thanks!_

 

Reference picture, SB0460 (X-FI XtremeMusic), for another person, who ripped pads.... Good Luck!

 - SB0460 - U2 Audio signal paths - reference for "ripped pad" wire repair
X-FI-MOD-099c - eSnips, share anything


----------



## sappyyy (Jul 18, 2018)

...


----------



## mobayrasta

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *goldrogers* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is anyone tired of their *modded* x-fi soundcard or ready for an upgrade and want to sell theirs?_

 


 LOL good luck bud. I have the very first one and still love it.


----------



## juswyq

Hey guys. I accidentally removed one of the small SMD components.. Is it necessary? Or can i go on without it?


----------



## Random Murderer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *juswyq* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey guys. I accidentally removed one of the small SMD components.. Is it necessary? Or can i go on without it?




_

 

can you put it back?


----------



## juswyq

Nope, the reason why I'm asking Is because when it fell out I can't find it. I didn't even notice it was gone when I lost it. If it's essential I guess I can take out the same component from one of the other channels, since I dont use the surround channels.


----------



## Random Murderer

i would do that.


----------



## juswyq

Ok. Any idea what component it is? Kinda difficult to remove SMD components, especially since it's so tiny. I was thinking maybe I could replace it with a larger component that would be easier to solder on.


----------



## juswyq

Regarding the M33078, trodas swapped it for an LM4562. I've read another source(I think it's OCworkbench) that says the mic-in opamp can be replaced by the LM4562 too. Not too sure if there's a large difference though, will try it when i get home.


 Not all opamps that work with the Front L/R channels will work in the Mic-in slot though; the M33078 in the xfi runs on half the voltage of the front L/R opamp, so chips like the AD8599 won't work.


----------



## juswyq

If i'm not wrong the tiny SMD component i lost is a capacitor, but i'm unsure of it's capacitance. Can anyone verify this?


----------



## sonci

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bichi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Reference picture, SB0460 (X-FI XtremeMusic), for another person, who ripped pads.... Good Luck!

 - SB0460 - U2 Audio signal paths - reference for "ripped pad" wire repair
X-FI-MOD-099c - eSnips, share anything_

 

Is it the same path for U3?

 Ive got little sound on the rear left, from a stacked pad, tried using this sceme but no luck..


----------



## Shocker003

Am new but i have being hanging around for some time, trying to aquire some knowledge on modding. 
 My respect to Mr cotdt, for taking the bulls by the horn.
 First i found out that my Extreme gamer has a 220uf/25v G-Luxon where most people install the 2200uf/16v. Can i change it to 3300uf/25v Panasonic and there is a 100uf/16v Jamicon the other side of the X-FI chip and i intend solding a 470uf/16v Black Gate in there? What do you gentelmen think about the idea and is there any link to an X-FI extreme audio pcie mod? 
 I will like to use it to learn how to change opamps as my solding skills are as good as a 8yr old trying to paint


----------



## Random Murderer

if you can afford to replace your sound card or don't care if you ruin it, this is an ok starter project.


----------



## drkazndragon

got a quick question. i wanna attempt this mod on my own xfi card. but since its going to be connected to my z5500 control center (which uses another set of opamps, i heard they arent that good as well) via analogue or coax, wouldn't that change the sound signature too?


----------



## Random Murderer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *drkazndragon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_got a quick question. i wanna attempt this mod on my own xfi card. but since its going to be connected to my z5500 control center (which uses another set of opamps, i heard they arent that good as well) via analogue or coax, wouldn't that change the sound signature too?_

 

yes, everything in the signal path changes the signature.


----------



## drkazndragon

maybe ill jus do the same mods to the control center.


----------



## Shocker003

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Random Murderer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_if you can afford to replace your sound card or don't care if you ruin it, this is an ok starter project._

 

I should have taken your advice. 
 I have an Xtreme Gamer that crashes my pc whenever i install the driver. The Extreme Audio is working better than before no more popping noise whenever am playing music. I did a complete cap replacement on both. Please does someone have a diagram or picture of the Gamer with labeled cap series. I want to order new caps then get all the new caps of the card and trace the fault. If someone can help i will be highly grateful and thanks in advance. After the failed gamer card i lost all my self trust in trying out the opamp mod on my extreme audio.


----------



## drkazndragon

hi guys, does polarity matter when swapping out cap? if so, how do i figure out which is pos and neg?


----------



## T_K

Ceramic caps (the tiny brown smd ones) don't have polarity. The big electrolytics do have polarity, which is marked by a - on the cap itself and there should be a + sign on the silkscreen on the board.


----------



## soulesschild

Can you use these opamps?

LME49860 - 44V Dual High Performance, High Fidelity Audio Operational Amplifier

 Also, how are people mounting the ERS paper to the back?


----------



## Random Murderer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *soulesschild* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Can you use these opamps?

LME49860 - 44V Dual High Performance, High Fidelity Audio Operational Amplifier

 Also, how are people mounting the ERS paper to the back?_

 

yes, those are pretty much identical to the lm4562.
 i haven't used ers paper, as it is ridiculously overpriced, but certain esd bags work just as well.


----------



## drkazndragon

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Random Murderer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_yes, those are pretty much identical to the lm4562.
 i haven't used ers paper, as it is ridiculously overpriced, but certain esd bags work just as well._

 

care to list some that might work?


----------



## Random Murderer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *drkazndragon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_care to list some that might work?_

 

i don't know a particular name, but if you put your cell phone in it, seal it, and lose signal, it'll work for shielding.


----------



## iDShaDoW

Sorry if I'm bringing a long-dead thread back up from the grave but can someone give me some help? I'm on Page 51 right now and gonna finish it up but was hoping to get some advice before finishing up the reading.

 I've got some Klipsch Promedia 5.1 Ultras and a X-Fi Elite Pro on the way.

 I've ordered 5 of the LM4562 SOIC opamps from National.

 I'm probably gonna get the Non-Polarized Black Gate 2200F or F series 1000uF replacement for the power cap.

 As far as the 16 capacitors for the opamps go, what's a good replacement cap for those (not sure I wanna short the caps so a higher quality, lower uF cap would be nice)? Preferably ones that are the same size so they aren't sticking out everywhere when I solder them in.

http://www.partsconnexion.com/t/cata...ctrolytic.html

 That's the site I probably plan to order them from so it'd be nice if I could get the Black Gate power cap and 16 other caps from the same place to save on shipping.

 Would some BLKGATE-60205 NX Hi-Q 22uF 6.3v 5 x 7 be the right specs as far as low enough uF, the correct voltage, and small size? 

 Or the BLKGATE-58646 Std 22uF 16v 6 x 11 would be better due to the 16v rating instead of the 6.3v on the non-polarized?

 Thanks for any help.


----------



## Lokonsky

I think 33uF/6.3v would be perfect replace for those caps, search this thread there's a comparison between 33uF vs original 22uF write down somewhere. replace it with BLKGATE NX Hi-Q is like cap-less sound, so why don't you short them instead? Unless you gonna color the sound with the caps (make the sound bit warmer) using it will be useless


----------



## iDShaDoW

Yea, I read that shorting the caps would help improve the sound, but the whole point of the caps is to keep some DC current from getting through and damaging equipment right?

 I know some people have wrote about shorting the caps and being fine, but what if I wanted to be on the safe side?

 I'm on page 61 now of the post. I know there were like 2 or 3 other caps beyond the main power cap and the 16 opamp caps that people say there might be reason to change out. Any idea what kind of caps I should purchase to replace those if there's improvement from doing so?


----------



## iDShaDoW

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kirimaru* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_there is a very easy way to accelerate the burning-in for blackgate.
 you just have to turn-off the pc, unplug it and turn it on and off for while.do it as many time as you can.
 i was doing it this trick and i was amazed with results,the sound become more and more clearer,open and detailed.
 how its works?acording to blackagte:it remove the previus residual electricity remaing in the cap and make the internal components react faster._

 

That sounds like an interesting technique, I tried to Google more but couldn't find anything. Anyone know if this is true?

 As for the people who said that would kill your hard drives... you could always unplug them. It's not like you need the hard drives plugged in for electrical current to reach the caps in the sound card.

 Is there another method maybe to speed up cap burn-in?


----------



## Lokonsky

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *iDShaDoW* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yea, I read that shorting the caps would help improve the sound, but the whole point of the caps is to keep some DC current from getting through and damaging equipment right?_

 

Most of modern amplifier have a DC blocker, even my 1980's pioneer have DC blocker so why bother? I've done this shorting mod for a half year now...n everything alright...But it's your call
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *iDShaDoW* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm on page 61 now of the post. I know there were like 2 or 3 other caps beyond the main power cap and the 16 opamp caps that people say there might be reason to change out. Any idea what kind of caps I should purchase to replace those if there's improvement from doing so?_

 

you can see other moders here:Jimmy’s Junkyard » Blog Archive » Onkyo SE-90PCI Mod (Finally, It’s Done!), yes it's Onkyo but you will get the point.


----------



## RallyMaster

I just A/B'd the opamp change with my friend's modded LM4652 X-Fi XtremeMusic (no other mods) and my bone-stock XtremeMusic. I am seriously not hearing a difference and neither is he. Maybe I need some higher priced cans or some high end speakers but IMO the whole thing is psychological. Tests were done on two computers, one right after the other with near passive cooling in each so noise should not be an issue. JVC HA-RX700 was used as the output.


----------



## Random Murderer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RallyMaster* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just A/B'd the opamp change with my friend's modded LM4652 X-Fi XtremeMusic (no other mods) and my bone-stock XtremeMusic. I am seriously not hearing a difference and neither is he. Maybe I need some higher priced cans or some high end speakers but IMO the whole thing is psychological. Tests were done on two computers, one right after the other with near passive cooling in each so noise should not be an issue. JVC HA-RX700 was used as the output._

 

no offense, but you need some better 'phones.
 not to mention there are other factors involved in making your x-fi sound better, not just opamp swap.


----------



## wfarid

I have the PCI-E Fatal1ty Titanium Soundcard and i can't find the power cap. I'm assuming that I can just switch out all the op-amps with the lm4652s without problems. I attached a picture. 






 unfortunately these are connected to logitech z-680s. I have a pair of beautiful Infinity RS-325 Dual Port Speakers but no space to use the in my tight computer setup.


----------



## Random Murderer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *wfarid* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have the PCI-E Fatal1ty Titanium Soundcard and i can't find the power cap. I'm assuming that I can just switch out all the op-amps with the lm4652s without problems. I attached a picture._

 

never assume anything, young padawan. to be sure, give us the model number on the opamp. you can sort of read it in the pic, but let's make sure...
 i have edited and attached your pic to show where the power filter is.


----------



## wfarid

haha, the first ops nubmers are; 4556a 
 J009h
 JRC

 and then the other 3 ops are:
 4558C
 (st logo) ez831


----------



## Random Murderer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *wfarid* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_haha, the first ops nubmers are; 4556a 
 J009h
 JRC

 and then the other 3 ops are:
 4558C
 (st logo) ez831_

 

both are pin-for-pin compatible with lm4562.


----------



## wfarid

thanks random! Now if I changed that power cap, should I then change the Vreg as well?


----------



## Random Murderer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *wfarid* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_thanks random! Now if I changed that power cap, should I then change the Vreg as well?_

 

if you feel so inclined, yes, but they're both in the digital part of the circuit and changing them will have little to no effect on the sound. that is, unless they are noisy as hell, but that's what the power filter cap is for...


----------



## wfarid

oh ok, i just wanted to change them so I don't get exploding caps. I had another one of the same card and one of the caps had gone bust. But I guess I'd have to change ALL of the caps if I wanted to avoid that.

 Now would changing the op-amps on the Logitech Z-680 controller have beneficial effects as well?

 and thanks for all the help random!


----------



## Random Murderer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *wfarid* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_oh ok, i just wanted to change them so I don't get exploding caps. I had another one of the same card and one of the caps had gone bust. But I guess I'd have to change ALL of the caps if I wanted to avoid that.

 Now would changing the op-amps on the Logitech Z-680 controller have beneficial effects as well?

 and thanks for all the help random!_

 

yes, you can change those opamps, but make sure the opamps you choose have the same pinout and will be sufficiently powered by the circuit(check voltage and current supply).


----------



## ray_stinger

hey guys, just wondering if anyone is still interested in modding their sound cards with the lm4562 and blackgates? in addition to those fantastic guides that are available here, you may also want to take a look at this page which gives detailed instructions on how to perform the mod yourself...
 as for those who prefer to have a professional to do it for them, feel free to pm me as i'll be more than willing to help!


----------



## Ewout_vB

Just an FYI to all of us using the PCI-E cards...

 They're even easier to mod IMHO.

 I just soldered on some lm4562s onto my X-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty (same as the non fatality, in fact all of these PCI-E boards are the same).

 Can't really compare before and after, but the parts were free so why not. (Seems like my z680 set is the limiting factor to begin with especially with the low end with the booming sub)


----------



## wfarid

yea i have z680s as well and the bass crossover is set to 180hz!!! I lowered it in the creative bass redirection thingy. They are crap for dedicated music listening but for gaming/movies they are fine and free op-amps, why the hell not right?

 My friend had the same issue, its when he played a 5.1 movie that he noticed the difference--better separation of the channels. With music you won't be able to tell (no music comes in 5.1 channels anyways).


----------



## theAEoN

I just ordered my samples and plan on putting them in the Titanium Fatal1ty. I'll post with results/ pictures when I'm done.


----------



## buzztiger

Which is the power cap on a xfi titanium fatality ? Is it the one as posted previously (previous page)? It looks so small to be a power cap.


----------



## Random Murderer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *buzztiger* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Which is the power cap on a xfi titanium fatality ? Is it the one as posted previously (previous page)? It looks so small to be a power cap._

 

pci-express uses much cleaner power than pci, so not such a large capacitance is needed to smooth out the waveform.


----------



## f4phantom2500

Hey this may be a bit off-topic but I didn't really want to start a new thread for this, so sorry if this isn't the right place for this.

 Would anyone be willing to mod my X-Fi for me? I would of course pay for shipping both ways and parts, if you want I could throw some $ your way for labor.

 I already PM'd a couple of people that I read would do this a few days ago, but neither have replied.

 Anyway, I just got my first set of good cans, the AD700's, and I really want my sound card to shine for them.

 EDIT:

 If you're interested I would prefer a PM.

 I have feedback on heatware and eBay, if it matters to you.


----------



## schmendrek

Edit: nvm


----------



## P.J

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cotdt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The X-Fi is without question the best gaming card, *but the sound quality is average at best*_

 

So what's the benefit of RightMark? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Behavior At 16 Bits / 44.1 KHz - Review Tom's Hardware : Creative X-Fi: A New World of Sound


----------



## eboy2003

Just put my fully modded X-Fi for sale on ebay:
Creative SoundBlaster X-Fi Elite PCI Sound Card Modded - eBay (item 300329902540 end time Jul-19-09 15:39:43 PDT)

 I have built an external DAC and now only need a sound card with good quality SPDIF digital out, so I switched to E-MU 1212M (only used the main card). Don't get me wrong, X-Fi's digital out is fine, but it uses non-standard 2 pole mini plug for digital out from the card is kind of hassle.


----------



## Apocalypsee

Does anyone notice that the sound on the left and right are 'mixed', I tried to run it only a single channel but I still hearing music coming from that channel, only some specific sound from that direction can't be heard, is it normal?


----------



## Face

Isn't that what stereo sound is?


----------



## ZenFountain

*edit nm


----------



## 1Time

Can mods mentioned in this thread work for the X-Fi Xtremeaudio? No gaming needed, just 2 channel.


----------



## danne

Im prolly gonna give the opamp swapp a try some time soon but Im wondering if a Sanyo 1000uF/6,3v will do the job for the power filter cap swapp? (The job as in a noticeable sound diffrence to the better?)

 As for the shielding anyone have any tips on something else than the ERS paper?


----------



## Apocalypsee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *1Time* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Can mods mentioned in this thread work for the X-Fi Xtremeaudio? No gaming needed, just 2 channel._

 

PCI or PCIe? Yes it can be done on both, a simple opamp change would improve the sound quality


----------



## 1Time

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *danne* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_As for the shielding anyone have any tips on something else than the ERS paper?_

 

I'm going to try Dynamat Xtreme because I have some on hand, and I don't want to spend more on shielding. 

 Carbon fiber was mentioned earlier. This Sample Pack seems like a good option for $25 shipped.


----------



## 1Time

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Apocalypsee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_PCI or PCIe? Yes it can be done on both, a simple opamp change would improve the sound quality_

 

PCI. 

 Any idea if the opamp originally mentioned in this thread would fit? 

 I have soldered before, but nothing this tiny. And I have no idea how to de-solder or even how to remove the existing opamp. These mods seem like they should be simple enough, but I'd hate to get started and then not be unable to finish because I don't know what I'm doing... lol.


----------



## ROBSCIX

This is really up to you. If you are unsure I suggest asking somebody who can do it.


----------



## 1Time

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is really up to you. If you are unsure I suggest asking somebody who can do it._

 

OK, thanks.

 Can anyone tell me if this is SMT or through hole soldering / re-soldering?


----------



## Apocalypsee

Its surface mounted, there is various ways to get the opamp out, some cut the opamp leg out, but I use a pin and use soler iron to lift the opamp pin one by one, its dangerous because you can accidentally remove the trace off the PCB, I suggest you try on old PCB before starting, or you could use your own tricks

 Is this your card? If it does, the topmost and the most rectangular (not square) one is the front channel, as I've seen from all Creative cards that they become predictable, even from old SB Live! they use the same old opamp over & over again


----------



## Apocalypsee

double post sorry


----------



## 1Time

Yes, that's the card I'm asking about, but I don't own it yet. I located the main opamp easy enough, but I don't know which 4 of those things to the right of it that I'm supposed to short. And, I can't locate the power filter capacitor. I suppose just replacing the opamp would be sufficient. But it seems a shame to buy this soldering equipment, learn to do this, and then only mod it part way.


----------



## danne

Alright, Ive swapped the opamp now aswell as the power filter cap to following:
 LM4562MA dual audio op-amp
 Sanyo 1000uF/6,3v
 Result: Windows finds the card but cannot recognize it.
 The X-FI's own software cant find it either.

 Any help?


----------



## danne

Installed the latest drivers and suddely it found the card again and it works! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 Now time to listen to music!!!!


----------



## 1Time

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *danne* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Installed the latest drivers and suddely it found the card again and it works! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Now time to listen to music!!!!_

 

Congrats on the successful mod. What sound card?


----------



## danne

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *1Time* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Congrats on the successful mod. What sound card?_

 

Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi Platinum Fatal1ty Champion Series

 Also made an own shielding construction on the PCI slot above with some tin foil havent notice any diffrence by just doing that though, but hey better safe than sorry 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But its an quite big sound improvement after all the mods.
 Havent shorten those 4 other caps do and I guess I could try get an even better power filter cap, but Im happy for now atleast 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Thanks for a great guide and alot of usefull comments!


----------



## Apocalypsee

Shorten those 4 caps will give the most sound quality difference simply because they put cheap ***** capacitor there, makes everything sounds worse. Or if you wary about D offset, a better capacitor like Panasonic FM or Blackgate NX HQ will be a good upgrade

 I just bought an Elite Pro, its definitely an upgrade from XtremeMusic, even at stock I'm enjoying it, only those 4 caps makes everything sound blurry and distant. I worried of shorting them but I'm lack of caps now, only have a couple of 47uF Blackgate NX HQ, maybe I should short them and put the caps on rear jack


----------



## kite7

I just removed the 4 decoupling caps yesterday, pretty much clears up any veil in the sound which is a good change. Should have done this earlier, instead of a year later after replacing the opamps. Seems like the power filter is the last thing for me to change, but from what I've read it doesn't make too big of a difference.


----------



## Apocalypsee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kite7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just removed the 4 decoupling caps yesterday, pretty much clears up any veil in the sound which is a good change. Should have done this earlier, instead of a year later after replacing the opamps. Seems like the power filter is the last thing for me to change, but from what I've read it doesn't make too big of a difference._

 

Changing the power filter doesn't really change the sound, but just for reliability, the stock caps tend to fail or lose its spec (capacitance and so on) after certain period of time. Is there any popping and stuff when changing volume after you bypass those decoupling caps?


----------



## kite7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Apocalypsee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Changing the power filter doesn't really change the sound, but just for reliability, the stock caps tend to fail or lose its spec (capacitance and so on) after certain period of time. Is there any popping and stuff when changing volume after you bypass those decoupling caps?_

 

Changing volume in windows volume mixer? I'm changing the volume and I don't hear anything strange


----------



## sonci

If you bypass the decoupling caps, you will hear loud pops and clicks during PC start up, and when changing creative console mode


----------



## kite7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sonci* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If you bypass the decoupling caps, you will hear loud pops and clicks during PC start up, and when changing creative console mode_

 

Yes I get those which is no big deal as I don't change modes and I always turn my speakers on after I turn my computer on


----------



## Apocalypsee

I got my hands on X-Fi Elite Pro a couple of weeks ago, and it indeed an upgrade from XtremeMusic. After been testing it with some opamp, caps replaced and so on, I decided that opampless sounds the best, while the 4 caps shorted with opamp comes second

 One thing is, power filter caps doesn't need to be high capacitance, the Elite Pro comes with 220uF Jamicon, I replaced it with same 220uF capacitance but its Rubycon, all I can say its very good. But do use OS-CON on DAC supply, as it gives noticeable sound improvement


----------



## kite7

Have you ever considered getting something like a Essence ST or STX? I'm just wonder how much better those sound compared to the x-fi with all the mods


----------



## Apocalypsee

Yes I am, the ST to be exact. Maybe another months or two. Its not here in Malaysia yet


----------



## sailboat

Decided to do this mod and failed miserably. 

 This is my first time soldering so it was difficult at first. I replaced the opamp by cutting the original off with a mini cutter and cleaning it up with desoldering wick. Took me a while to solder the LM4562, but during the operation one of the pads came off. Searched this whole thread to figure out its the V+ power pad, I uploaded some pictures. I tried the soundcard but there was no sound, so I went back and redid the 7 legs, result: very very low volume in left ear, nothing at all in right. My question is, how do I connect the last (8th leg) of the opamp to the board? Somebody mentioned we could solder the leg onto the trace, I'm not sure what that means. Or I could solder it to the 8th pad of a different opamp, one of the surround maybe? Except its too far away and I'm not sure what to do at this point. 

 I have no idea if there is contact between the legs and the pad, seeing how this is my first soldering attempt. But from the looks of it, even though its messy, the 7 legs seem to be fine. Would a single leg/pad still cause no sound/low volume in one ear? 

 Here are some pictures, it would be great if you guys who have done the mod already could give me some pointers. Thanks in advance!


----------



## Apocalypsee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sailboat* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Decided to do this mod and failed miserably. 

 This is my first time soldering so it was difficult at first. I replaced the opamp by cutting the original off with a mini cutter and cleaning it up with desoldering wick. Took me a while to solder the LM4562, but during the operation one of the pads came off. Searched this whole thread to figure out its the V+ power pad, I uploaded some pictures. I tried the soundcard but there was no sound, so I went back and redid the 7 legs, result: very very low volume in left ear, nothing at all in right. My question is, how do I connect the last (8th leg) of the opamp to the board? Somebody mentioned we could solder the leg onto the trace, I'm not sure what that means. Or I could solder it to the 8th pad of a different opamp, one of the surround maybe? Except its too far away and I'm not sure what to do at this point. 

 I have no idea if there is contact between the legs and the pad, seeing how this is my first soldering attempt. But from the looks of it, even though its messy, the 7 legs seem to be fine. Would a single leg/pad still cause no sound/low volume in one ear? 

 Here are some pictures, it would be great if you guys who have done the mod already could give me some pointers. Thanks in advance!_

 

Oh my...that looks very bad. Maybe your solder is too hot? Be very careful not to put solder for too long on the PCB

 Anyway, here is the layout of opamp on SB0460, from bichi. Good luck, I hope you can get it fixed, if not I got an alternative


----------



## sailboat

My iron is a 30W, and it has a fairly thin tip. It's probably my inexperience that ruined the whole thing. But I'm planning to keep trying to fix it until its completely unsalvageable.

 I'm looking at the exact same picture, will find a thin wire to act as bridge and solder it to the nearest V- pad. 

 It's not too bad, I only paid 30 dollars for the card, it's one of those HP OEM cards, but everything seems to be similar to the one in the above picture. But still, money is money  Not to mention I paid a few bucks for the opamp + soldering tools 

 Thanks for the quick reply


----------



## Apocalypsee

I done some more testing, I found that:

 1) Positive Analog out --> Capacitor --> 1k resistor --> RCA out
 2) Positive Analog out --> 1k resistor --> capacitor --> RCA out

 The number 2 config sounds a lot better thna the first config, its smoother, more listenable and less edgy than first config, the resistor I use is not really a high precision or HiFi type so that might be the problem. The capacitor is 47uF BG NX HQ

 I got some idea, if Xonar STX can benefit from upgrading crystal clock, then X-Fi can also benefits from it too, but finding good clock is hard in Malaysia. The most I found is just 30ppm crystal


----------



## Neil.Heretical

Man, really, considering the price, NJM4556 is not that bad...


----------



## P.J

Quote:


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cotdt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The X-Fi is without question the best gaming card, *but the sound quality is average at best*_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *P.J* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So what's the benefit of RightMark? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Behavior At 16 Bits / 44.1 KHz - Review Tom's Hardware : Creative X-Fi: A New World of Sound




_

 


 

Anyone?


----------



## maarek99

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *P.J* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anyone? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Rightmark doesn't really tell us what equipment sounds like. It can help to find certain problems though.


----------



## P.J

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *maarek99* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Rightmark doesn't really tell us what equipment sounds like. It can help to find certain problems though._

 

So there's no way to test the audio quality, right?


----------



## Apocalypsee

I just use one single capacitor on the output and removed the resistor because there is already resistor after CS4398 and before the caps. It sounded very good, makes me wonder why do they need to put opamp after the DAC? Its a voltage out DAC and doesn't need one, and sounded natural and distortion free


----------



## m_lucas

I have a creative x-fi extreeme gamer it is the smalller one 
 I am looking for someone to mod it for me with the works 
 I am an avid online sim racer and looking for the best sound i can get in surround sound 

 please recommend and give me details as far as cost ect.


 Thankyou


----------



## hexiumvii

I have an Xfi Xtreme Audio PCIe SB1040 (yes the crappy one) and changed the OP Amps. Difference was night and day. However for the rear channel i took off a solder strip for one of the legs so the rear black jack doesn't work. The other ones are fine though. Is there anyway to remap the jacks? I'm using YouP PAX with Win7 64bit with the summer pack. Or if anyone seen schemas for the Xaudio (it's pretty diff from the real xfi) i might be able to hot wire it somewhere. Thanks!


----------



## Okac

Quote:


 Decided to do this mod and failed miserably. 

 This is my first time soldering so it was difficult at first. I replaced the opamp by cutting the original off with a mini cutter and cleaning it up with desoldering wick. Took me a while to solder the LM4562, but during the operation one of the pads came off. Searched this whole thread to figure out its the V+ power pad, I uploaded some pictures. I tried the soundcard but there was no sound, so I went back and redid the 7 legs, result: *very very low volume in left ear, nothing at all in right*. My question is, how do I connect the last (8th leg) of the opamp to the board? Somebody mentioned we could solder the leg onto the trace, I'm not sure what that means. Or I could solder it to the 8th pad of a different opamp, one of the surround maybe? Except its too far away and I'm not sure what to do at this point. 

 I have no idea if there is contact between the legs and the pad, seeing how this is my first soldering attempt. But from the looks of it, even though its messy, the 7 legs seem to be fine. Would a single leg/pad still cause no sound/low volume in one ear? 

 Here are some pictures, it would be great if you guys who have done the mod already could give me some pointers. Thanks in advance! 
 

I have the same symptom, I soldering lm4562 (in front) replace 4556 and get that symptom, I think maybe I burn them with solder, order new solder them with much carry on but the same symptom, then first ("burned lm4562") put on the rear change 4558 result front same symptom rear work left right but volume is low and causes unstable froze the comp etc....then I put back 4556 on her place and work but with unstable system and I take off rear ("burned lm4562") and now work fine without rear chip on....

 Now is mess with the layout and I pay too much (for one lm4562 12Euro with post, yes, yes I know but that the way is here...) and for now I stay with this project...

 What you think do I burn them 2 IC ((lm4562) 4556 solder and desolder several times but work) this is not my first work I have experience with soldering but with SMD little (I know that they are sensitive and I fast solder it but...(temp of solder was about 300c) or incorrect IC (hmmm I seen that too, wrong legs...) or my non seen problem with broken or short circuit layout (but I watch and check circuit)


----------



## fab_flix

After reading the guide and asking for a friend's advice whether to do it or not, I finally ordered 4 LM4562. I short circuited the four caps and replaced the Jamicon 220uF/16v with Elna 2200uF/16v (I didn't find Blackgate, is Elna good?) and it sounds much more better than before. I'm looking forward for receiving those LM's. Hope I keep things clean as I did until now and don't mess anything up.


----------



## Skauneboy

I'm in the middle of upgrading my Xtreme Music with new opamps and capacitors. Unfortunately I've learnt the hard way how fragile the solder pads are on these things and have managed to rip two of them off. One is for the mic opamp and I just can't seem to trace what it's supposed to be connected to. If anyone knows or if anyone with an untouched card could look into it I'd greatly appreciate it.


----------



## Skauneboy

Seems like it's my lucky day. According to this that pin on the opamp is left open which, unless I've misinterpreted it, means it's not connected to anything.


----------



## Gilly

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skauneboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Seems like it's my lucky day. According to this that pin on the opamp is left open which, unless I've misinterpreted it, means it's not connected to anything. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Yep

 Output, Out2, is left open. (to insure opamp current demand is minimal)

 and just to say, all I have done is shorted the caps, no opamp or capacitor change yet, it does sound a little sharper


----------



## dhw4488

Hey,

 I recently replaced the op-amp on my x-fi xtreme music to the AD8599 and the power cap to a 16v 1000uF blackgate, but there is a problem. When I am listening to music, the volumes in both the L and R channels are very low with windows volume at max. I guess its like a 50% loss of volume? Anyone know the problem?


----------



## Gilly

sounds like the opamp isnt getting enough power. but wouldnt like to pinpoint the exact fault (sorry).

 does the power filter capacitor take all the input power and supply it to the card? reason I am asking is, if its the wrong way around, would the card exhibit similar problems to those Dhw4488 is describing? 

 I'm not an expert on this, and havent look at the traces, schematics or specifications.


----------



## dhw4488

Nevermind, I figured out what the problem was. It seems part of the AD8599 v- pin was somehow cut off even though I did not do anything like that. I just added more solder to connect that joint and it now works out perfectly.


----------



## mz5

Hi all 
 this is my audigy live value 7.1 mod
 i only use it as transport to my external DAC so this is what i did.

 1. replace the caps for i/o lm1117 regurator ( digital part )
 2. remove some smd caps
 3. add RCA and rewire to the sorce of SPDIF signal
 4. driver mod 
 5. i did some caps mod for analog but didn't use it at all 











 The result was grate. all the detail, bass, cleaness have improve.
 i send one to my friend, he said the SQ comparable to his auzentech prelude and the bass is better. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 next week i will try X-fi Xtreame fidelity (sb0790) with mundorf m-lytic cap. will let u all know the result.


----------



## Apocalypsee

Nicely done mz5 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 When your friend say its better than Prelude, do you mean its analog stage? Looks like it uses Wolfson DAC instead of Cirrus Logic on regular X-Fi cards, can you tell me which one is it?


----------



## mz5

Apocalypsee 

 i mean the spdif out is comparable to prelude with deeper bass and better dynamic .

 the audigy has no way to go close to prelude on analog stage 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 i will mod x-fi for analog and send my friend the card to campare angain 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	









 this is the x-fi that i am waiting for some part. will use m-lytic and polystylene for this card. do you have any suggestion for this card?
 what opamp whould be the best for it ? (for audiophile)

 and has anyone mod power supply yet ? any thread for it ?

 Thanks


----------



## Apocalypsee

Oh the SPDIF, I thought the analog out 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 For opamp, there is lots of choices, I recommend LME49722, AD8599 (some say this sound 'analog') or LT1364


----------



## DL84

hi people new guy here
 i have the x-fi platinum with the 5.2" bracket and i wanted to ask if someone modded this expansion "slot" too with other opamps? because i connected my dac thru the optical out on the bracket and i read that the sound doesnt change when you mod the card but connect the dac on the expansion slot..
 any opinions?

 regards D.


----------



## Gilly

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DL84* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_hi people new guy here
 i have the x-fi platinum with the 5.2" bracket and i wanted to ask if someone modded this expansion "slot" too with other opamps? because i connected my dac thru the optical out on the bracket and i read that the sound doesnt change when you mod the card but connect the dac on the expansion slot..
 any opinions?

 regards D._

 

swapping the opamps wont effect the quality of the optical out. swapping the power filter capacitor and or using ERS paper should make a difference to the optical (digital) quality anyway.


----------



## sobi123

Double post, sorry.

 Sobi


----------



## sobi123

Hi guys,

 Been longing to do this mod since may...what a fail. I've shorted C63 on my elite pro because I though it was a decoupling cap :smack:

 Does anyone now what kind of a cap should I put into there best ? Sound's not working by the way on any channel on analogue, can't try optical.

 I've stole this pic from bichi since I don't have a good camera to take a photo of mine, It shows what's shorted on mine:





 Please somebody help and let me know of a good, acquirable in the UK cap to get.

 Cheers
 Sobi


----------



## sobi123

Keeps double posting for some reason, my pc does, really sorry. Since I don't know how to delete posts, maybe a moderator could do something about them, this one included.

 Really sorry
 Sobi one kenoby


----------



## sobi123

Okay found out that it is a Kemet TANTalum 33uf @ 15vdc cap. Anybody knows something similar in the UK ? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Would appreciate any input 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Cheers
 Sobi


----------



## bichi

*sobi123:*
 - stock capacitor is: Jamicon SS 47uf @ 16vdc; 85c (size: DxL; 5mm x 7mm) (board position: C63)
 - the picture you posted shows modified components.
 - some possible electrolytic (not tantalum) replacements:
 Panasonic FC; PN: EEUFC1C470 (DxL; 5mm x 11mm) 3mm taller.
 Nippon ChemiCon LXZ; PN: ELXZ160ESS470MEB5D (DxL; 5mm x 11.5mm) 3.5mm taller.

 - take a look around MALPIN, UK based electronics shop:
http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=402


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bichi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*sobi123:*
 - stock capacitor is: Jamicon SS 47uf @ 16vdc; 85c (size: DxL; 5mm x 7mm)
 - (board position: C63)
 - some possible replacements:
 Panasonic FC; PN: EEUFC1C470 (DxL; 5mm x 11mm) 3mm taller.
 Nippon ChemiCon LXZ; PN: ELXZ160ESS470MEB5D (DxL; 5mm x 11.5mm) 3.5mm taller._

 

Can you tell me about that little filter board you made?


----------



## bichi

*ROBSCIX:*

 - its a Bessel 3-pole LPF, designed to direct-couple to the Cirrus CS4398 differential outputs.
 (as opposed to stock 2-pole Butterworth)
 - schematic and details in the last "Esnips" link below: 

X-FI-MOD-120-Carrier-02.jpg - eSnips, share anything
X-FI-MOD-121-Carrier-03.jpg - eSnips, share anything
X-FI-MOD-122-3pole Bessel-04 - eSnips, share anything


----------



## ROBSCIX

I was looking over those pics, I did not realize there was schematics there. I wanted to send you a PM to discuss the desing but I geuss you don't like PM's huh?
 Thanx for the info.


----------



## Apocalypsee

Thanks bichi for the schematic, I would like to try those too. Currently I made circuit based on CS4398 datasheet, its good to see someone makes new filters


----------



## sobi123

Thank You Bichi, You're a lifesaver ! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Will get back on board to say how it sounds after accompanying LD MKIII 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Sobi123


----------



## fab_flix

Posted this on other forums and thought to post it here, maybe i'll get an answer.

 I posted some time ago that I modded my Xtreme Music.
 One day I wanted to know how does it sound with the coupling caps shorted (I have Elna Silmic II) and I didn't like the sound because the highs were too "high". I reverted things back to normal and the sound remained the same.
 After this I put only wire in place of the caps. Still, the sound remained the same. After this I found some 22uf/10v Rubycons (new) and I thought to put those on.
 Anyway, I didn't like the sound with the Rubycons either so I put the Elnas back. And I had a surprise. The sound was very very distorsioned.
 I went to a local gsm service and told the guys there to remove my op-amps (I have LME49860). They did so and they told me they also had re-soldered the coupling caps. When I arrived home the distorsion was gone, but I had no sound on the front channels.
 I have some questions for the modding enthusiasts on this forum:
 1. Is it normal not to have sound on front channels without opamps?
 2. What do you think that could have gone wrong?
 3. Is there any way to fix my card?
 Only the analog output is affected, the digital works fine.


----------



## Random Murderer

1) i'm not sure how the circuit in the x-fi is, but on my audigy 2, when the front opamp was removed, there was still sound, just very faint. it had not been amplified, though the fact that sound is present means the circuit was still complete somehow. on the x-fi, removing the opamp may leave the circuit open.
 2) lots of things. you may have shorted something, overheated/fried something, there could have been bad solder joints, etc.
 3) possibly. if there is no damage to the card, simply replacing the opamps may fix it.

 only analog would be affected, the digital portion is a completely different circuit.


----------



## fab_flix

I tried replacing the opamps. But on the front I've put the one that was on the line in and the other channels are opamp-less. That's the way it is now and still the sound sucks.
 Is there the possibility that all opamps were gone during the modding?
 Should I use a new opamp?


----------



## Random Murderer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fab_flix* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I tried replacing the opamps. But on the front I've put the one that was on the line in and the other channels are opamp-less. That's the way it is now and still the sound sucks.
 Is there the possibility that all opamps were gone during the modding?
 Should I use a new opamp?_

 

yes, replace them with _new_ opamps.


----------



## fab_flix

The card is toasted. No sound at all.
 I made the order for an X-Fi FPS and it will arrive on Thursday. I also ordered new op-amps for it, the LME49720, which Apocalypsee suggested to use instead of the LME49860. They will arrive on Friday
 Hope to post pictures on Saturday.


----------



## Zippit

Never mind... I was being dumb.


----------



## manandfox

Is it possible to replace the whole DAC? or are there too many factors involved? Ie step up to the DAC in the Elite Pro from the Xtreme Gamer card.


----------



## Gilly

As I discovered... The DAC on the Elite Pro is actually 4 stereo DACs, not just 1 8 channel DAC, so you couldn't just replace it straight chip for chip. 

 MAYBE it's possible to run just the front 2 channels through 1 of the Elite Pro chips, if you run wires off from all the right traces, haven't looked into voltage requirements etc. 

 TBH, it's better to upgrade the opamp, if you use it on the lower cards, or upgrade to the Elite Pro and modify that, IMO.


----------



## manandfox

I am working towards many of the mods on this site already (I have LM4562s, am sourcing Blackgates, will get my iron from home at xmas) but I was just thinking if it would be feasible to upgrade to DAC itself. It certainly doesnt look easy, but I thought maybe even larger gains could maybe be had. Certainly Cirrus even has some chips in a higher line that would work?

 I guess an eight channel DAC really limits the available options, especially if you want to keep it that way (8 Channels).

 edit: Suggested devices for Pro Audio Mixer

 The PCM1609A fits the package size of the Cirrus Logic chip. The voltages look okay... I think. I don't know too much about this; I suppose the card wouldn't have controllers for this chip would it? Or is it a data in data out sort of operation? Could I gift my X-Fi with 192kHz support?


----------



## Gilly

Just wanted to say, I have used one of these.... (only because I didn't have a 2 pin version)

http://www.hardwarezone.com/img/data...eader_done.jpg 

 Using some CAT5e cable, I bodged a SPDIF and ground connection to the pin outs here...

http://folk.uio.no/haakoh/emu10k1/AD_EXT.jpg

 across pins 9 for the center core, and 7 for the ground.

 It's working very well, and means you can have the I/O jack running for Mic In, confirmed it works. Very pleased for some crappy wire tbh 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Just need a nice method of getting the cable out of the case and I am all sorted 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (ATM, the SPDIF out goes to my hifi (Sony MD hifi so me and the Mrs can listen at the same time, it has optical in, so goes through a little converter box first).


----------



## dc5itr329

Are op amps bypassed when using digital signals like coaxial or toslink? I read it on the forums that someone posted that. just wanted to confirm


----------



## Random Murderer

yes. the op amps are in the analog circuit.


----------



## fallingreason

So, I just finished the mod as described by the OP. It was my first time welding anything so it took me a while and I had a rough patch where I was only getting sound out of 1 channel. 

 After trying again and playing with the solder at the pads i finally have the card functioning normally.

 I have one question though.. Does it matter if the soldering job isn't really the cleanest? The area around the opamp looks a little burnt and dirty now, as does the solder at the opamp legs. Kind of black and silverish. Can this affect how well the opamp functions? The way I see it is either current gets through and everything works perfect or it doesn't, there is not an in-between.

 If anyone could shed some light on this I'd appreciate it.


----------



## ROBSCIX

No it doesn't matter. Provided there are no solder bridges or the job is so messy it will short out the card. You said it works, so it works. That being said it is nice to be able to solder nice and neat and that will come with time and practice.
 If the card is operating then everything is ok.


----------



## eneloquent

I've searched but didn't find any specific mention for this; anyone with guidance/experience on doing something like this to an *SB Audigy 2 Platinum eX*?

 I'm a novice with a soldering gun, but from what I've gleaned from the thread, I'd be replacing the opamps and caps in the breakout box that has the 1/4" jacks on it.


----------



## RushNerd

(refering to the eXtremegamer)
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *soloz2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_no, the op-amps are not standard SOIC so you cannot swap op-amps. you can do the rest of the mods if you want though_

 

Wait, does this mean that I cannot mod my eXtremegamer card's op-amps? Isn't that the bulk of this mod? 

 Say it an'it so, I want to mod myself a better card


----------



## sobi123

I must say that modding is time consuming...

 Now, I finally added that misplaced capacitor of mine and the impressions are...not exciting. The card sounds somewhat better than the onboard sound, but stock Elite pro did anyway. There is high noise floor like on my ALC888 I didn't have this kind of things before modding my card. It seems as if the card's sound became more detailed but everything else stayed the same.

 It's muddy, not alive and noisy.

 Now that is strange, maybe because I have wires instead of decoupling caps, but everybody else seems to be fine without them. 

 What is stranger though is that I had an Xtreme music card, only replaced the opamp with LM4562 and...I had no left channel because of my crap soldering, BUT...*the sound in the left was like a dream...a gave away that card, but I still miss it. * It was airy, emotional, involving, sweet, present, strong and the bass just soooo controlled.

 I noticed some people complaining about Lm4562 as lifeless and things, and I just couldn't saw why. Now I do...it seems as though the performance vary from piece to piece and the chips are a hit or miss. 

 There seems to be no other explanation how a badly soldered lm4562 on xtreme music would sound so good on mono, and a perfectly soldered lm4562 on Elite pro without decoupling caps and with a replaced C63 cap to rubycon AND a blackgate NX 1500uf 16v for the power capacitor* sound noisy, have snap, crackle, pop appear, and become emotionless and just plain !

 I don't like the sound from it, and only way for the music to have some *meat* to it is to run it through my Little Dot MKIII, but then I lose detail !

 WAIT ! I just remembered another difference. I ran my Xtreme music on stereo but through the opamp slot for surrounds. I enabled stereo xpand in the panel and run a normal 2 channel sound through the second left jack. The opamp was placed in the third slot from what I remember. I could also archive the stereo while fiddling in music creation mode. It sounded as spectacular, although mono !

 Maybe others had impressions of lm4562 performing different in different cards or different opamp slots ? I wonder if it's just me or maybe some LM's ship faulty or just plain bad 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'll be replacing caps in my elite pro soon, will report how it sounds then, just have to get some quality caps, and money for it ! If anybody's interested I could upload the pic's of my elite pro, but I doubt it would be helpful.

 Sorry for the long rant, food for thought though

 Sobi

 *it's supposed to not change the sound that much or at all, only eliminating noise because of the filtering


----------



## Gilly

How much DC offset is there with no caps in place btw?

 And it is certainly very strange that it sounds so poor in comparison


----------



## HecksN

Hello everyone, this is my first post.

 Two days ago a friend of mine gave me his X-Fi XtremeMusic SB0460, because he tried to swap the opamp and managed to rip out every pad except pin 1 (output), pin 4 (V-) and pin 8 (V+). Luckily, I found a picture of the traces of the opamp in this thread, and so I tried to solder the opamp legs to the correct pads with some very thin silver wire.
 After doing that and getting no sound at all, I figured out, that R90 and R73 were broken. Luckily, both are just 35 Ohm output resistors, so I decided to bypass them. Incredibly, after putting it back in, everything worked perfectly.

 After that, I replaced C177 with a BC 2200µF 12V low-ESR cap. Also, since I don't use the AUX in or 10 pin connector, I decided to short C18, C19, C21, C22, C48, C49, C102 and C104, which are all in the audio path, and C23, C50, C76 and C77.
 The improvement after this was just amazing. The bass got a bit tighter and the detail and resolution really improved.

 Thanks to everyone posting in this thread.

 Here are 2 pictures (yes I know, the opamp job is really messy, but it's working  )


----------



## fallingreason

After performing the mod as described by the OP, my sound card stop working intermittently. 

 Any possible explanations?


----------



## fallingreason

After performing the mod as described by the OP, my sound card stop working intermittently. 

 Any possible explanations?


----------



## Gilly

reflow solder joints to pins tbh


----------



## Spacehead

I have been modding my X-FI. 

 But RMAA tests are disturbing. Right channel gets harmonic distortions, many harmonics. How is the op amp channel order?? 

 is left pins 1.2.3.4 and right channel 5.6.7.8 

 I had solder pad 3 ripped off, so I had to run a wire to decoupling capacitor nearby. But I think it is the left side, so why there are distortions on the right channel!! 

 The op amp is AD8620 and it sounds good, but I want excellent RMAA results!


----------



## Spacehead

How to make a DIP8 socket mod to SOIC pads. I have not yet figured it out. It would help op amp rolling a lot.


----------



## Random Murderer

DIP8 to SO8 Adapter (p/n 031101B)


----------



## anwaypasible

i have an elite pro and there is a stereo receiver hooked up via the analog method.

 connected to the receiver are some speaker cabinets with a twelve inch woofer in each cabinet.
 i ported the cabinet and gave the box a tune well into the 20hz area.
 the midranges are the famous peerless/nht NPT-11-081-1 drivers.
 the tweeters are stillwater design (kicker) from the early 1990's era.

 i use the receiver EQ to give a 3dB boost at each of the crossover points.
 then i used my calibration microphone and trueRTA to calibrate the pink noise response for my room.

 the problem i am having is the need for lots of boost in the 30hz area.
 my EQ 31hz slider is at 10.4dB and the 'bass boost' within the THX console is set at +12dB @ 30dB (small speaker)
 there is distortion from the soundcard when trying to push songs with lots of low bass.
 i can play a 30hz sine wave in trueRTA and the sound is fine (although still a low audible level)

 and then if i try to enable anything fancy like 24bit crystalizer, the sound really distorts (bass AND midrange)

 i am wondering why the card is distorting.
 i really dont think there is a lack of processing, so that leads me to believe there is a lack of power on the PCB board somewhere.

 so i started to think about this mod and i wonder if changing any of the capacitors would help my situation.

 i've setup my THX console with the proper angle and speaker distance to try and clear up the standing airwaves in the room.
 this room has no carpet, tile floor, and no fabric on the walls (painted wood paneling)
 no fabric in the room either except for one moon chair that is wrapped in corderoy.
 i would think that the 30hz would be more audible.

 if i turn down the soundcard preamp level to -6 the distortion goes away but then the audio is low and i have to crank the receiver up to a point where it is probably clipping.

 i just want the bass to be more audible without any distortion.
 any engineers or people who have changed the caps care to englighten me?


----------



## mobayrasta

I have the original card in this thread that started the craziness. COTD did the mod for me after he had done something similar on an EMU. I have never had one issue with this sound card. I absolutely love the sound. It is running into a Bijou Tube amp made my dBel, using Ultrasone 2500's. Absolute synergy. The Ultrsones are a little analytical and the ERS Paper and blackgate really work together to make these cans sound spectacular. Warming up the sound a little without loosing the fidelity. 

 The Bijou is a beast of an amp. It is a very tubey sounding amp which also seems to just work right with the headphones. I am still in audio heaven, I wouldn't change a thing!


----------



## mobayrasta

I have the original card in this thread that started the craziness. COTD did the mod for me after he had done something similar on an EMU. I have never had one issue with this sound card. I absolutely love the sound. It is running into a Bijou Tube amp made my dBel, using Ultrasone 2500's. Absolute synergy. The Ultrsones are a little analytical and the ERS Paper and blackgate really work together to make these cans sound spectacular. Warming up the sound a little without loosing the fidelity. 

 The Bijou is a beast of an amp. It is a very tubey sounding amp which also seems to just work right with the headphones. I am still in audio heaven, I wouldn't change a thing!


----------



## idbaghera

Hello dear music enthusiasts. 
 I did modding the xfi Elite Pro, I changed the 5 op-amps with L49720, capacitors with others better, but I have a little problem, namely the front left channel is plays a bit slower than the rest of the channel, rebuilt soldering capacitors, the same result.
 Is it possible that the op-amp front has some problems? was there a cold soldering? or is it broken?


----------



## NumLock

Is there any benefit in modding my X-Fi if I use optical out to an external DAC?


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NumLock* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is there any benefit in modding my X-Fi if I use optical out to an external DAC?_

 

absolutely not


----------



## Apocalypsee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NumLock* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is there any benefit in modding my X-Fi if I use optical out to an external DAC?_

 

For DSP caps might be, but for opamp and the decoupling caps no.


----------



## idbaghera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *idbaghera* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hello dear music enthusiasts. 
 I did modding the xfi Elite Pro, I changed the 5 op-amps with L49720, capacitors with others better, but I have a little problem, namely the front left channel is plays a bit slower than the rest of the channel, rebuilt soldering capacitors, the same result.
 Is it possible that the op-amp front has some problems? was there a cold soldering? or is it broken?_

 

anyone ??!!


----------



## ROBSCIX

what do you mean it plays a bit "slower"?


----------



## idbaghera

it's about 15-20% slower that others speakers (the sound is to low-)...
 I guess is not op-amps problem because I change it with another one but same result...front left sound is heard more slowly ... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 Sugestions?


----------



## idbaghera

I found the problem...one of the* + *contact (from front channel) on the board is gone...
 Where is the + corespondent? to fix that
 Thank you in advance


----------



## LDme

hi everyone, i have Elite pro (SB0550) & i'm thinking to replace "power filter cap (470uF Jamicon)" to "i dont no what cap 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 can someone help me, i cant find Nichicon KG, Blackgates is too expensive for me (maby link to ebay, coz i live faaaaaar^1000 from civilization 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (Ukraine))" help me make a good choise with this cap.

 also want change opamp NJM2114 to LM4562 & maby surround opamp also will be changed (dont know yet).

 & one more thing about I\O console (SB0510) can i replace headphone OpAmp there & what OpAmp it will be?

 PS: can i replace mic in opamp? & where is it on soundboard & on I\O console?
 here is I\O console (SB0510) hq photos ImageShack Album - 23 images


----------



## Spacehead

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *idbaghera* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I found the problem...one of the* + *contact (from front channel) on the board is gone...
 Where is the + corespondent? to fix that
 Thank you in advance_

 

have you found a way to fix that?

 I just followed the traces to next point.


----------



## Spacehead

Image of my modding... Damaged card already. 
http://i41.tinypic.com/2q06dxy.jpg

 I don't understand why my crosstalk results is only -38 dB. 

 What points could I measure with my multimeter to find out where is the channel bleeding happening?


----------



## Spacehead

I think I can identify this as a cause for bad crosstalk:


----------



## ravid

Hi all 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I just modded my audigy2 with TI amp model opa2107
 after I made it, a noise is coming from the back left output.
 What could be the reason?
 Do I need to short the CAPs? which one? I saw only instructions for the ZS model. 

 here's a pic of it:




 Love this site


----------



## Spacehead

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ravid* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi all 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I just modded my audigy2 with TI amp model opa2107
 after I made it, a noise is coming from the back left output.
 What could be the reason?
 Do I need to short the CAPs? which one? I saw only instructions for the ZS model. 

 here's a pic of it:
 [/URL]

 Love this site 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I need a macro shot of the section you modded. 

 You can see yourself if there is a solder bridge. I always picture my mods to get good visual of the modding site.


----------



## ravid

Thank you for helping 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 the problem of the noise come out after I made the soldering again.

 But I got the felling that there is a echo in the sound, like reverb.
 is this normal? what could cause this?

 I can take a picture of the soldering if you want. they look pretty good.


----------



## modscab

Inspired by this thread, here's my Auzen X-Fi HT HD Mod.


----------



## Radical_53

Wow, quite some dedication and a great piece of work! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Are those 90° adaptors you're using for the main opamp socket available somewhere online or did you bend them yourself?


----------



## hans030390

The X-Fi Titanium PCI-E is available on Newegg for $50 after a given $25 promo code and $25 MIR. Seemed like a decent deal, but does anyone know if this model is moddable?

 Here's some decent pictures I found of it:

http://forums.techpowerup.com/showpo...&postcount=672

 If it's not moddable, I hope it's an improvement over the Realtek AC888 (for music).


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hans030390* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The X-Fi Titanium PCI-E is available on Newegg for $50 after a given $25 promo code and $25 MIR. Seemed like a decent deal, but does anyone know if this model is moddable?

 Here's some decent pictures I found of it:

techPowerUp! Forums - View Single Post - X-Fi Support Syndicate & Owner's Clubhouse

 If it's not moddable, I hope it's an improvement over the Realtek AC888 (for music)._

 

Almost any soundcard can be modded but what can be achieved depends on how skilled the guy behind the soldering iron is.

 You should be able to mod the opamps and the capacitors.


----------



## hans030390

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Almost any soundcard can be modded but what can be achieved depends on how skilled the guy behind the soldering iron is.

 You should be able to mod the opamps and the capacitors._

 

Any idea which of the opamps will be for the main L/R? Will it still be the top one?

 Which capacitors on these would be replaced? Most mods I've seen just replace one, and it's usually a larger one on the board. I'm not seeing one like that for the Titanium in these pictures.


----------



## modscab

Some crazy mod on Auzen X-Fi HT HD, not by me. Will update mine soon.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *modscab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Some crazy mod on Auzen X-Fi HT HD, not by me. Will update mine soon._

 

Who's card?


----------



## Spacehead

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hans030390* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Any idea which of the opamps will be for the main L/R? Will it still be the top one?

 Which capacitors on these would be replaced? Most mods I've seen just replace one, and it's usually a larger one on the board. I'm not seeing one like that for the Titanium in these pictures._

 

4556 the highest is the L/R

 Capacitor replacing doesn't bring much effect, except shorting the coupling caps.


----------



## ROBSCIX

....I would say that depends on which caps you're talking about.


----------



## sobi123

Hi

 I was thinking of getting the audio straight from dac, and coupling the output outside of the card (SB Elite pro 0550). Can anybody tell me where I can get the closest signal from DAC excluding soldering straight from dac itself ? As in soldering to a resistor or a cap.

 I'm worried I would kill the dac if I tried to solder on it. 
 Also could somebody tell me which caps I can chuck out when all I need is the analogue audio out from jacks, or if I can get audio straight from dac which caps would not be needed anymore ? like aux out, console out and others. 

 Since I have a headphone/pre amp, and an receiver/power amp I don't need amplifying on card anyway. So I thought just as one person did on the thread with xtreme music or xtreme gamer( don't remember ) he took out all the caps that were not needed, and replaced the ones that were. 

 Would be very glad if somebody could help me with that. Can supply pics of my SB0550 if anyone would need it to tell. Would be interesting to see how the dac output alone would sound.

 Very big thank you on top


----------



## Spacehead

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sobi123* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Would be very glad if somebody could help me with that. Can supply pics of my SB0550 if anyone would need it to tell. Would be interesting to see how the dac output alone would sound.

 Very big thank you on top 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

It sounds very neutral. If you don't mind testing your card with it's own ADC then you can take only + or - line from DAC output. I mean that the amplitude of the signal will drop a lot if you don't do your own differential to single ended conversion. If you want to use the highpass filter on the PCB, just take signal from op amp pins 3 right, and 5 left. 

 You can route the signal from decoupling capacitors. 
 I found a picture
http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/6...19a7310vd3.jpg

 You can get left channel from C45 and right channel from C49. I am not absolutely sure. You could easily measure it with multimeter. pin 3 and pin 5 are + inputs on op amp , right 3, and left 5. 

 hmm... I have tinkered with X-FI a lot but never seen an X-FI elite, pretty darn expensive card!


----------



## Spacehead

As you can see from following picture, dac doesn't get instantly damaged if it is soldered on. It is really difficult to get good solder joints on those small legs, as my soldering iron tip is 1.2 mm and those legs are 0.2 mm wide

 Cable is shielded and grounded




 (that residue has been cleaned away) 

 I have removed most of the not important stuff from the signal path. I have created my own dip to soic adapter. Only 2 Jamicons left on the card, those shouldn't affect performance. I am trying to balance the capacitor values. 
 Mic-in op amp changed to OPA2211
 Currently AD8620 installed on the adapter
 See:
http://i40.tinypic.com/2ui8ah1.jpg

 Test results, current configuration is on the left
http://i44.tinypic.com/2vnp76b.jpg

 I am a bit disappointed now to the THD value. 0.0026% and on the default card it is 0.0017%. I cannot resolder my adapters connections anymore because I epoxied it to the card. But they are shiny! 
 THD might be limited by something else. Like socketed capacitors. 


 The sound quality overall is SUPER. The details of the sound signature depends very much on the op amp now. The CS4382 is pretty very neutral sounding DAC. I almost mixed up the DAC for bright sounding, but then I remembered that I have AD8620 on there so that is the reason for bright sound.


----------



## sobi123

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Spacehead* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It sounds very neutral. If you don't mind testing your card with it's own ADC then you can take only + or - line from DAC output. I mean that the amplitude of the signal will drop a lot if you don't do your own differential to single ended conversion. If you want to use the highpass filter on the PCB, just take signal from op amp pins 3 right, and 5 left. 

 You can route the signal from decoupling capacitors. 
 I found a picture
http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/6...19a7310vd3.jpg

 You can get left channel from C45 and right channel from C49. I am not absolutely sure. You could easily measure it with multimeter. pin 3 and pin 5 are + inputs on op amp , right 3, and left 5. 

 hmm... I have tinkered with X-FI a lot but never seen an X-FI elite, pretty darn expensive card!_

 

Hmmm sounds interesting ! Actually I once tried attaching a small PC case speaker to the coupling cap outs (I have wire bridges there) and it played. Was just wondering if I can get any closer that would exclude op amps altogether, as I didn't hear that much of a difference on elite pro. I had an xtreme music and the change there was ENORMOUS ! 
 Could try wiring it from opamps as you say 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 have you replaced any caps apart from C163 ?

 Elite pro are cheap on ebay 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 bought mine for £50 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 about 10 months ago. Would avoid it though. Had snap crackle pop for 2 months and than it went away hahah Would go for something from Auzen and then mod that if I didn't have my elite pro now


----------



## sobi123

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Spacehead* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_As you can see from following picture, dac doesn't get instantly damaged if it is soldered on. It is really difficult to get good solder joints on those small legs, as my soldering iron tip is 1.2 mm and those legs are 0.2 mm wide_

 

Thank you ! that looks promising 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 QUOTE=Spacehead;6566866] Only 2 Jamicons left on the card, those shouldn't affect performance. [/QUOTE]

 There's my answer ;P


----------



## Spacehead

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sobi123* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Elite pro are cheap on ebay 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 bought mine for £50 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 about 10 months ago. Would avoid it though. Had snap crackle pop for 2 months and than it went away hahah Would go for something from Auzen and then mod that if I didn't have my elite pro now _

 

What a bargain!

 It you decide to take the dac signal, I suggest that you take it out from underside of the card, at the DC coupling caps. Then you won't damage anything. 
 Even a small mistake on a crucial point can lead to hissing and you feel like sh¤t. 

 As you see from my card picture, the practicing has taken it's toll and card looks ugly. But my skills have improved so much during this modding adventure that I have been able to get back the original performance!


----------



## sobi123

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Spacehead* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It you decide to take the dac signal, I suggest that you take it out from underside of the card, at the DC coupling caps. Then you won't damage anything. 
 Even a small mistake on a crucial point can lead to hissing and you feel like sh¤t. 

 As you see from my card picture, the practicing has taken it's toll and card looks ugly. But my skills have improved so much during this modding adventure that I have been able to get back the original performance!_

 

Hahah the feel like sheet part applies a great deal I think ahahah 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Who cares if it's ugly, if it sounds emotionally moving ! Great to hear you could bring it back !

 What caps did you use over the card instead of crappycons ?


----------



## Spacehead

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sobi123* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hahah the feel like sheet part applies a great deal I think ahahah 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Who cares if it's ugly, if it sounds emotionally moving ! Great to hear you could bring it back !

 What caps did you use over the card instead of crappycons ?_

 

The card sounds now very nice. I prefer this to default card. The things that open up the sound most are muting transistor removal and decoupling capacitor bypassing. The possibility of op amp rolling makes this card very special 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Capacitors used:
 Panasonic FC
 Nichicon VX
 Panasonic FJS
 Panasonic FJ

 And couple that I don't remember.


----------



## Spacehead

I am trying to get the THD down to 0.0015% from 0.0026%. It might be impossible to do that anymore now that I cannot resolder my adapter. I got .0001% Improvement from putting AD8599 in place and I changed some capacitors.
http://i41.tinypic.com/sg7o9e.jpg


----------



## cynan

I'm a total amature when it comes to this sort of thing.

 After getting the stock power capacitor out, I go a bit agressive trying to remove solder stuck in the through holes at C177. One of the pads on the back of the card lifted. 

 Is there anything I can do about this, or is it game over? I can't find any schematics for C177 traces..

 (kind of a shame, cause I already replaced the OpAmp and decoupling caps, which worked)

 Thanks in advance!


----------



## Spacehead

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cynan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm a total amature when it comes to this sort of thing.

 After getting the stock power capacitor out, I go a bit agressive trying to remove solder stuck in the through holes at C177. One of the pads on the back of the card lifted. 

 Is there anything I can do about this, or is it game over? I can't find any schematics for C177 traces..

 (kind of a shame, cause I already replaced the OpAmp and decoupling caps, which worked)

 Thanks in advance!_

 

If you could get me a picture of the area where it got lifted it would help. If you are lucky the lifted point is just ground and that is easy to reroute. 

 I had to reroute DAC to op amp because I lifted all the 4 op amp decoupling caps


----------



## cynan

Thanks for replying to my post.

 I ended up being impatient and I got out the multimeter. A quick continuity test seemed to indicate that a larger resistor (D2?) directly beside C177 was in circuit with both of pads on C177, so I just soldered the power capacitor to the contacts on the resistor. 

 The card seems to work... Would it work if I soldered the cap to the wrong circuit? ( 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 really showing my ignorance here)

 I am, however, getting a bit of noise and the right channel is cutting in and out. This did not happen after I replaced the OpAmp (sounded perfect then). Could this be a function of a bad connection on the decoupling caps for the opAmp? (seems likely, as issue only occurs on line out connected to the opAmp/decoupling caps I replaced..)


----------



## hans030390

How much do the different opamps change the frequency response? The stock X-Fi Titanium drops off around 40Hz more than some Auzen and Asus cards. I'm just wondering if these mods will give it a better linear response in that regard. Or is this something only seen in much nicer cards?


----------



## Spacehead

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hans030390* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How much do the different opamps change the frequency response? The stock X-Fi Titanium drops off around 40Hz more than some Auzen and Asus cards. I'm just wondering if these mods will give it a better linear response in that regard. Or is this something only seen in much nicer cards?_

 

http://i41.tinypic.com/sg7o9e.jpg
 not much at all. 

 most difference in frequency response comes from filter that is usually after dac. 
 on X-FI the filter limits the highest freq and lowest freq 
 DAC is decoupled to op amp filtering circuit by 22 uF capacitors

 Either shorting them out or replacing with 33 uF capacitors frequency response can be extended a little. 

 My freq response is "shorted" , straight wire from dac to op amp filtering circuit.

 AD8066 has lowest freq response of op amps that I have tried. 
 this picture is OK except the higher frequency response is ruined because of driver problems I had. 
http://i41.tinypic.com/1zmfnmb.jpg


----------



## Spacehead

OK my RMAA graphs indicated high ripple in 50 Hz and it's harmonics. I wanted to reduce that somehow. Larger capacitors didn't help. So I thought about replacing the lousy 78M05 with proper decoupled LM317T. I set the output voltage to 4.75V with two resistors and added Cadj and Cout capacitors. Cadj is styroflex, 39 nF. Cout is 180 uF Sanyo OSCON 16V.
 I measured ripple with my cheap multimeter, it was 0.1 VAC with OSCON as Cout. 
 I was happy with that performance. 
 The 78M05 was quite easy to remove, but I almost slipped it to op amp filtering circuit!! 
 I used same technique as with op amp removal, solder on both sides and alternating touches with iron until it starts to slide, then take it with tweezers. 





 I wired my LM317T breadboard in place. I didn't use heatsink as shouldn't the current be quite low. or... if 100 mA is drawn and voltage drop is about 7V, then 0.7W is dissipated. That should be manageable without heatsink. I thought about increasing the voltage to 7V, but then I remembered that DAC is supplied by the same regulator and it can take 6V max. So cannot increase headroom, or if dac is supplied with another regulator 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	









 I think the sound improved a bit. Test results indicate that I indeed got some dirt on op amp filtering circuit: 
http://i43.tinypic.com/2jc9h8w.jpg

 The soundstage is wider and quite a bit more accurate now. I am glad that I am getting that THD down a little at a time.

 I never thought how obsessed can one get on the AUDIO SOURCE. Source must be absolutely best for good enjoyment of music. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I think I have to think something else in place of that OSCON, it feels somehow unrealistic, very soft. Maybe Panasonic FC 100 uF. With 0.1 uF cheap mylar capacitor ripple was 9.7 VAC.


----------



## hans030390

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Spacehead* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_http://i41.tinypic.com/sg7o9e.jpg
 AD8066 has lowest freq response of op amps that I have tried. 
 this picture is OK except the higher frequency response is ruined because of driver problems I had. 
http://i41.tinypic.com/1zmfnmb.jpg_

 

So, why did you choose to not use the AD8066 as your opamp? How does it compare to the LM4562?

 And shorting specific capacitors will help with the frequency response? Can you tell which ones I'd need to short based on this image?


----------



## Spacehead

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hans030390* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So, why did you choose to not use the AD8066 as your opamp? How does it compare to the LM4562?

 And shorting specific capacitors will help with the frequency response? Can you tell which ones I'd need to short based on this image?




_

 






 I don't now have any AD8066s free. It is very nice sounding op amp too. I think I could try it, but I have only one left and it is soldered on my X-FI on non-used soic pads. I have been keeping it as a backup op amp. 

 If you want to truly extend your bass response you should do your own filtering circuit and take the signal straight from dac. 

 It isn't very hard. Like building a CMOY.


----------



## LDme

guys - pls help - noone havn't answer me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/ho...ml#post6469378

 can i remove JRC4556A @ i\O console amp (external elite pro console) & what opamp do you recomend to replace it. tnx


----------



## LDme

guys - pls help - noone havn't answer me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/ho...ml#post6469378

 can i remove JRC4556A @ i\O console amp (external elite pro console) & what opamp do you recomend to replace it. tnx


----------



## LDme

nobody didn't answer to my q 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




"this post"

 pls someone tell me, can i replace JRC4556A in external elite pro console to some better opamp?


----------



## Mad Max

You guys short the output caps which are there to filter out DC, but if you were to bypass them with, let's say, polypropylene caps instead?


----------



## Apocalypsee

Quote: 





spacehead said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *hans030390* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> ...


 
  Are you sure the caps labelled C101 is the right one? I believe its the C80 (the one underneath the third rightmost caps before C101) is the right caps to short


  
  Quote: 





ldme said:


> guys - pls help - noone havn't answer me
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Yes of course, change to any sort of opamp you could find here, it should work since it have the same layout


----------



## Andry

Hey guys. Firstly let me congrat you all X-Fi modders for contributing on this so-long thread about the X-Fi's.
   
  I want to mod my X-Fi Fatal1ty sound card and the only caps that I found here in my country ( Romania ) for replacing the four 22uF caps for each op-amp are _Rubycon 10v 22uF_ and _Elna Tonerex 47uF 16v ._
   
   
  Is it safe to replace those 4 caps ( shown here as "Short these" http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/3631/slabeledpl3.jpg ) with the 47uF Elna Tonerex caps ( audio-grade as far as I know ) or i should go with those 22uF Rubycon caps ( they are power caps, not audio grade ).
   
  Thanks in advance!


----------



## Bad_dude

I have 3 modded Xtreme Music card, any one interested in buying.  I went overboard with the mods.  Each card has all 4 Op-Amps replaced with LM4562MA, front channels and surround channels. The power filter cap is replaced with Nichicon Muse KZ 1000uF/50V.


----------



## Mad Max

Not overboard enough.


----------



## pterodactilo

I'm interested in modding a creative x-fi surround 5.1 USB version, can I use the same opamps , capacitors and such than the ones cited in this thread or they won't work with this model?. Also , does anyone know which DAC this card has? I 've got a photo of the board but there are two DACs: CS5355 and CS4361. Are these any good to attemp a mod?


----------



## Apocalypsee

Quote: 





pterodactilo said:


> I'm interested in modding a creative x-fi surround 5.1 USB version, can I use the same opamps , capacitors and such than the ones cited in this thread or they won't work with this model?. Also , does anyone know which DAC this card has? I 've got a photo of the board but there are two DACs: CS5355 and CS4361. Are these any good to attemp a mod?


 

 Next time search the forum before asking. Here's one mod http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/445503/cretative-x-fi-surround-5-1-modded-for-audiophile-usb-audio


----------



## pterodactilo

Certainly I've read the thread you cite and indeed after reading it I became interested in modding a SB surround 5.1 USB, BUT that mod uses a different  opamp : OPA2365. LM4562 seems better, isn't it? . As for the DAC used, question solved. For some reason I thought D/A and A/D were integrated in the same chip, but it was a wrong assumption. CS5345 is A/D and CS4361 operates D/A conversion. I wonder if the DAC can be swapped  by a better one too.


----------



## Apocalypsee

Quote: 





pterodactilo said:


> Certainly I've read the thread you cite and indeed after reading it I became interested in modding a SB surround 5.1 USB, BUT that mod uses a different  opamp : OPA2365. LM4562 seems better, isn't it? . As for the DAC used, question solved. For some reason I thought D/A and A/D were integrated in the same chip, but it was a wrong assumption. CS5345 is A/D and CS4361 operates D/A conversion. I wonder if the DAC can be swapped  by a better one too.


 
  Oh I see. Well, the DAC is quite unique, with a single 5V supply, I don't think you could swap it though. But it wasnt that bad, try to Google the name of the DAC, you'll surprised
   
  EDIT: Don't use National opamp, it needs rail-to-rail, or something. Check out my post at opamp thread in DIY subforum


----------



## pterodactilo

Also the OP said his mod was intended for use with IEMs but I want to plug full sized headphones , a pair of AKG K601 to be more precise. I don't know if capacitors should be different or what.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





spacehead said:


> I am trying to get the THD down to 0.0015% from 0.0026%. It might be impossible to do that anymore now that I cannot resolder my adapter. I got .0001% Improvement from putting AD8599 in place and I changed some capacitors.
> http://i41.tinypic.com/sg7o9e.jpg


 


 I wouldn't let the THD values get you down.  There are many devices that have higher THD ratings but still sound great.  These devices would easily surpass devices with lower THD values also.  It is up to you but I wouldn't worry aslong as it sounds the way you want.


----------



## Mad Max

Those THD values are still ******* small.


----------



## yellowade

hi
  is some1 selling hotroded xfi xtreme music?


----------



## Vergex2

Would it be worth trying this on my Auzen Prelude? Would the Prelude do better than my Mamba as an amp + DAC for my ES10 on the computer?


----------



## Bad_dude

Quote: 





yellowade said:


> hi
> is some1 selling hotroded xfi xtreme music?


 

 I got one if you would like to buy.  Please contact me for more details.


----------



## LDme

guys, i have elite pro & cavalli kan kumisa III 
  so the question is - where i can get a pure line out on it?
  i want connect cumisa directly to sound card without amp.
  someone know? 
  where i can solder my wire on sound card to get a pure line out?


----------



## job15

I just wanted to thank everyone, basically i've never soldered in my life but i am big on music and after reading this thread and using everyones advice i modded my x fi music card , the first attempt was a failer, trying to take off the coupling caps i overheated the board and a lil trace popped up and that was the end of that, since realizing i didnt have to take them out to short them i bought a new card i still took off the caps but just cut the legs down and soldered wire on the back of the board, yay, the power cap i had trouble with, so i used a 1mm drill bit on it and installed a 2200uf 16v panasonic FC, then today i received my opamp the from canada and completed the mod, WOW what a difference, on rock type stuff its ok but when you play electronic music with lots of different basses and detail its out of this world, so thats what decent music sounds like.....thanks CODT and CO 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





" class="bbcode_smiley" height="1" src="http://files.head-fi.org/images/smilies//smily_headphones1.gif" title="
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




" width="1" />


----------



## Soymilk

has anyone been able to compare a hotrodded x-fi with the auzentech prelude? i'm looking into getting a sound card (current source = motherboard -_-) and debating if i should get an x-fi (elite pro?) and hotrod it.


----------



## job15

Does any one know where the muting transistor is on the x fi extreme music is so i can remove it, thanks


----------



## catx

I lost the pictures of the finished job, but you can bypass the muting circuit by removing the 4 transistors and wiring as described below


----------



## rj200

anyone be willing to do this for me if i sent you the xfi xtrememusic, paid for shipping & opamps etc.?  i dont feel comfortable doing it myself. :/


----------



## oscar2k23

i need some help, I decided to go ahead and do this project. Everything was going good, until  at the end i noticed that one of the little tabs had been ripped from the circuit. Now when I am hearing something through my headphones, I can hear hissing in the left hear all the time. I checked to make sure that the opamp was properly seated and everything looks good. During the project I mistakenly removed one of these and now I am getting hissing. I can still hear the music but the distortion is there. Here is a picture of the damaged circuit.


----------



## ReTiCuLe

Hey Apocalypsee,
   
   
  I saw you saying that the current LM4562NA's from National aren't good to use anymore on the X-fi anymore? Is this true? I just ordered some Samples from National for my PCI-E X-Fi Titanium. I used the same samples 2 years ago on my Xtreme Music.
   
  In addition does anyone happen to have a diagram for the 2-Speaker oAMP to replace or is it identical to the PCI versions?
   
  Thank you,
  - John


----------



## ReTiCuLe

Bump


----------



## ReTiCuLe

Anyone have an answer? ->
   
  I saw Apoc saying that the current LM4562NA's from National aren't good to use anymore on the X-fi anymore? Is this true? I just ordered some Samples from National for my PCI-E X-Fi Titanium. I used the same samples 2 years ago on my Xtreme Music.
   
  In addition does anyone happen to have a diagram for the 2-Speaker oAMP to replace or is it identical to the PCI versions?
   
  Thank you,


----------



## mathesar

Does modding an X-Fi XtremeMusic make that much of a difference? All 3 of my headphones already sound so loud & clean as is directly connected to Line Out 1.


----------



## Amatsu

*@mathesar*
   
  I just changed the opamp (LM4562) 2 days ago after having the X-Fi music for over 2 years and it really does makes a difference, specially the bass, it's more defined and punchier. Overall the sound has more life.
  I'm really glad I decided to change it, especially since it didn't cost me anything (ordered some free samples), it was my first opamp solder job and it took me 3 tries, but patience is the key.


----------



## Bad_dude

I have modded this card over 2 years now and it sounds, to me, better than the Asus Xonar D2P or D2X.  The highs are better.  For music or games, this is still the best option.


----------



## mathesar

Quote: 





amatsu said:


> *@mathesar*
> 
> I just changed the opamp (LM4562) 2 days ago after having the X-Fi music for over 2 years and it really does makes a difference, specially the bass, it's more defined and punchier. Overall the sound has more life.
> I'm really glad I decided to change it, especially since it didn't cost me anything (ordered some free samples), it was my first opamp solder job and it took me 3 tries, but patience is the key.


 
   
  Interesting. Guess ill have to research the thread and do this myself, is there any known side effects?
  
  Thanks.


----------



## Amatsu

God, I love this little opamp more and more everyday, I'm just realising what a POS the old one was, the OP was right, it deserves to die.


----------



## vodkex

Hi, I've been reading this thread for a while, and I've learnt a lot from it. I have an xtrememusic which I'm modding, not exactly with the caps you guys recommend but some rubycons and nichicons I've salvaged from an old sony sound system from 1995... and to be sincere, I do notice the difference between the stock jamicon/g-luxon crap and these other caps.

 I live in Argentina so it's a bit difficult to get good components, but I was able to order some OPA1612s as free samples from TI, they should be arriving in two days. I'll change that opamp later down the road when I get it, but for now my card just rocks. I can't wait to hear it rock even more! 



 My question is... I've done the caps mod, in a little while I'll change the opamp... so I'm left with shorting/removing the 4 decoupling caps. I've read here that it isn't something dangerous to do if you have an amp connected to the card, since it'll have its own decoupling caps and nothing could be potentially damaged... trouble is, I have an amp.. it's an old sweet kenwood KA-300B, but I have it somewhere else driving some 25w speakers with a modded Audigy SE in another PC. In my rig I have my x-fi, but no amp to connect it to, just my modded sennheiser HD202 (I've made them open cans with let's say.. another "housing" for the drivers... man how horrible was the stock closed sound is just something I can't even begin to describe!).
   
*Ok, my point is, if I short/remove the decoupling caps; the dc offset without an amp can kill my HD202s?* If they are killed well, I'll have to spend U$S 50 (AR$ 200) to get them back, not to mention all the burn-in time lost! I'd like to keep those US$ 50 in my pocket...  Common sense tells me that without something there to supress that DC offset, it can be dangerous... but anyway, this is the only thing that's left unclear for me, if someone can clear this doubt for me, I'll be really thankful.


----------



## inteificio

HI,
   
  I would just like to add thanks for the mod info.
   
  I have just completed the opamp swap on my Elite pro.
  The sound has changed significantly.
  I was always irritated by the sound of the Elite Pro, after so many positive reviews I expected a lot.
  The CMSS 3D for phones was impressive, really impressive. (headphone amp was terrible, so using an external one); but the sound quality was dreadful.
   
  I have just finished the mod, so no time for the chips to 'burn in' or even warm up and the improvement is significant.
  The reason I delayed so much is I was expecting the improvement to be negligible , but my expectations were wrong, very wrong.
   
  My surround set up no longer has a weak link.
   
  I am off to spend the rest of the day 'testing' the set up, nothing to do with lazy movie watching, it is serious testing..honest.
   
  The rest of my setup (if anyone cares)
  Rotel RB-991 / 993 / 995
  Acoustic Energy 309, 301, 308 and whatever the matching centre speaker is.
   
  This sounds great.


----------



## vodkex

I've done the following:
   

 Opamp changed to OPA1612A
 Caps changed 100%, used rubycons and nichicons from an old sony music system's mainboard from 1995
   
  It sounds amazing!!!  But I bought this x-fi used, it has 2 years on it... It sounded great already when compared to the audigy SE I was upgrading from, but right off the bat there was something wrong with this x-fi, like not being able to get the calibration signal down to -1 dB as indicated by the program, only to about -2.5 or -2.2 dB, after that the left channel distorts quite badly.. it's in audio creation mode, all eax effects disabled, bit perfect mode activated.. as it should be.. have a look at the RMAA calibration graphs at 92%, 94% and 100% volume. It's the line out that's borked, the line-in's working fine.
   
  92% | http://www.imagebam.com/image/9ff7ce114169363
  94% | http://www.imagebam.com/image/ae2c81114169367
 100% | http://www.imagebam.com/image/855e39114169372
 RMAA graphs at 92% | http://www.imagebam.com/image/cc87b3114169384
  RMAA results at 92% w/ audigy SE | http://www.imagebam.com/image/d7e8d8114169378
  
  I've changed all the caps thinking there was a bad one somewhere causing all this, but unfortunately it wasn't the case. I thought maybe the stock opamp was doing things wrong, but it wasn't. It hasn't changed with all the mods applied.* I'm at a loss, clearly the left channel is ****ed up...* I can't seem to find what's wrong with this card. Mind you, it sounds great to me, the best I've ever heard and much better than my old audigy SE, but it makes me uneasy to know that my card isn't right. What could be broken? the DAC chip? Any ideas folks?


----------



## schwallman

I'm about to do the mod myself. I picked up an xtrememusic since I liked the one in my computer at work. Didn't know about the mods until yesterday. Got the required stuff on order today. Listening to it stock right now and it's actually really nice now. Im excited about doing the mod because if it sounds better than stock then I'm in for a real treat. Hybrid is currently blowing my mind.


----------



## schwallman

From this image my 7 and 8 pads are gone after a bad job taking off the opamp. i can see the 7 might be able to be salvaged but where would 8 be soldered to?
  
  Quote: 





skauneboy said:


> I'm in the middle of upgrading my Xtreme Music with new opamps and capacitors. Unfortunately I've learnt the hard way how fragile the solder pads are on these things and have managed to rip two of them off. One is for the mic opamp and I just can't seem to trace what it's supposed to be connected to. If anyone knows or if anyone with an untouched card could look into it I'd greatly appreciate it.


----------



## schwallman

Is this thread dead?


----------



## Amatsu

Latetly I've been hearing a small channel imbalance in my X-Fi (happens with both my headphones) where the right channel has a lower volume. Do you think the opamp could be the culprit?


----------



## Bad_dude

Quote: 





amatsu said:


> Latetly I've been hearing a small channel imbalance in my X-Fi (happens with both my headphones) where the right channel has a lower volume. Do you think the opamp could be the culprit?


 


  It's definitely that.  Resolder all the legs to make sure all contacts are well soldered on.


----------



## Amatsu

Yeah I'll do that, it's just weird that it started happening all of the sudden. Thanks.


----------



## davidjasondiaz

What gauge wire is best to short the couplings? I'll use the card up to 3-4 hours at a time on weekends so maybe a thicker gauge for extended use?


----------



## devilwant

Quote: 





cotdt said:


> The X-Fi is without question the best gaming card, but the sound quality is average at best. As someone who is used to high end external DACs with discrete output, to me the sound quality of the X-Fi can be best described as "low-fi". But rest assured X-Fi owners, we can make it far better! I actually prefer the fully hotrodded X-Fi XtremeMusic over the Benchmark DAC1. Yes, that's what I just said =). It matches the dynamics and detail of the DAC1, but with a wider soundstage, less fatigue, and far more musicality it's not even comparable.
> 
> This guide works for sound cards in general and not only the X-Fi, but X-Fi is the most logical choice because of its versatility.
> 
> ...


 
   
   
Can i use this Cap for the power filter *2200uF 16V ELNA Cerafine ROA AUDIO CAPACITORS*???
  thnks


----------



## Fantasysage

Way to quote the entire op.


----------



## aiboforcen

Hey guys, if you don't mind I'd like to to ask, currently I have audigy platinum modded with lm4562 sounds good, but I thought maybe there are some more tweaks that I can apply to make it sound even better? Thanks


----------



## shadowofzeus

I am going to do the opamp mod to my brothers x-fi ti and I was wondering if and how to short the caps on the ti? Do you really need too?


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





devilwant said:


> Can i use this Cap for the power filter *2200uF 16V ELNA Cerafine ROA AUDIO CAPACITORS*???  thnks


 
   
  That should be fine.  If you end up not liking how it colors the sound, grab a Rubycon MCZ or Chemicon KZE equivalent.  You could also try Nichicon KZ/FG/FW.


----------



## devilwant

Quote: 





mad max said:


> That should be fine.  If you end up not liking how it colors the sound, grab a Rubycon MCZ or Chemicon KZE equivalent.  You could also try Nichicon KZ/FG/FW.


 
   
   
  The caps were too big and short legs!! I have bought Blackgate Standard 16V 470uF! Waiting for my packet to arrive! Do you think these will sound great??


----------



## Mad Max

You should get some improvement, yes.
   
  Which caps are too big with short legs?  I used a Nich FW 2200uF 35V cap for power one time, lol!  It was real nice.  A little overkill is okay.  =]
   
  You want the power coming in to get conditioned, though it'll never be as good as having a far better power supply and being free from computer interference and dirty computer ground.  Eventually, I just went with an external DAC.


----------



## schwallman

I have two blackgates left over from when I did the mod. I had to get my order over$25 so I just bought 3. So I vae 2 for sale if interested.


----------



## Telim

I've seen some people who just replaced the coupling capacitor instead of shorting them on the Xtrememusic. Which way is better? I assume for shorting the caps I could just tie one leg of each cap together?


----------



## devilwant

Quote: 





mad max said:


> You should get some improvement, yes.
> 
> Which caps are too big with short legs?  I used a Nich FW 2200uF 35V cap for power one time, lol!  It was real nice.  A little overkill is okay.  =]
> 
> You want the power coming in to get conditioned, though it'll never be as good as having a far better power supply and being free from computer interference and dirty computer ground.  Eventually, I just went with an external DAC.


 

  These are the caps!they are way too big and legs too short! So i will try the Blackgate one and see the change!
  I am on a tight budget can't get my hand on external dac! anyway what external dac are you using??


----------



## Telim

Quote: 





devilwant said:


> These are the caps!they are way too big and legs too short! So i will try the Blackgate one and see the change!
> I am on a tight budget can't get my hand on external dac! anyway what external dac are you using??


 

  
  Try and see if you can find leaded caps, they have longer legs. The manufacturer should say in the description.


----------



## Master1280

I have an X-Fi XtremeGamer low profile, so i order some LME49720HA to testing.
   

  Also the card has an extra 3.5mm jack for 7.1.

  Skipping the desoldering process, Lme in plastic improve adaptor.
   
  4556a Ttsop8 was removed, its just a little tricky.
   

   
  Direct solder of the opa to the board.
   
   
  Results:
   
   
  RMAA doesnt says an accurate veredict cause *recording settings* in x-fi panel affect results, i didnt notice but i made a mistake taking samples cause that there´s no detail of RMAA for the moment.
   
  But.
  THD change from 0.0038% to 0.0022%
  IMD + Noise*,  *0.0058% to 0.0041%
   
   
  Listening
   
  First, changing the opa doesnt affect the ouput volume i think changing lme is "compatible"(also is the same opa change of xtreme music).
  I tested some flac of Miku Hatsune, voice pitch are more clear, loudly and defined, highs tones just sounds diferent, like separed and distinguible, bass are more contundent.
   
  Im not an audiophile but i can notice that changing the opa improves the sound around 20% just worth the efford.


----------



## Mad Max

Did you really have to use leads that long?


----------



## Telim

The main Op-Amp has a dot to indicate pin 1 but none of the surround Op-amp has that. Can I assume if I replace the old surround Op-Amps I can just follow which way the letters are facing?


----------



## Mad Max

Yup.


----------



## Telim

I went to cut the old main op-amp out and I did but the solder pad for pin 4 came off the board. Does anyone know where I can reroute pin 4 on the LM4562 to?


----------



## Mad Max

Pin 4 is -V supply.


----------



## Telim

Quote: 





mad max said:


> Pin 4 is -V supply.


 

 Thanks for the quick reponse, really appreciate it! I want to jump a small wire from pin 4 to where it needs to go but where can I tap -V on the board? I can't see the traces on the PCB from all the flux left behind. I read some where that C72 supplies -5vdc to the Op-amps, think I can tap off there?


----------



## Mad Max

Not sure.  I no longer have a soundcard to look at, lol.  hopefully someone who does know can chime in soon.
  You can't wipe off the flux with a paper towel or something?  There shouldn't be any problem with that as long as you remain well grounded.


----------



## Telim

Alright, fixed it. Probed around the Main Op-amp area and found that the hole on the right of the the resistor underneath pin 4 of the Main Op-amp supplied about -5.10V. Took a short length 28 AWG wire and jumped from that hole to pin 4 of the op-amp and all good! Borrowed the OP's picture just to illustrate where I jumped in case anyone in the future has the same problem.


----------



## bichi

*h1tman*  (PM)

_"...I fount a smd part that seems to be burned but i am mot sure. It`s number is U22. It is situated
 just below the X-FI light, near the power plug. Can you tell me what is this part??..."_

*ANS:*

 SB-0550 - U22 Identification

 ST Microelectronics
 7800 Series Regulator
 Package: SOT-89

 Part Number(s):
 L78L09C   Grade: +/- 8%   9vdc output
 L78L09AC  Grade: +/- 4%   9vdc output

 Datasheet:
 http://www.st.com/internet/com/TECHNICAL_RESOURCES/TECHNICAL_LITERATURE/DATASHEET/CD00000446.pdf

 Hope this helps and good luck...


----------



## 50AE

Hello guys, I really appreciated this modding idea, I love good sound, but I ran into problems...
  I have an X-fi music.
  I decided to change its ompamp and short the 4 capacitors.
  I was self confident, because I have already soldered and dissoldered SMD.
  So I dissoldered the old opamp by putting a bid of solder on all the pins and I took it off very fast, to not overheat the board.
  I cleaned the excess solder with a copper wick.
  Then I took the nice LM4562, glued it with scotch tape, put a drop of homemade flux (rosin in methanol) and soldered the pins fast and gently. I also shorted the caps.
  Result: job done very well, very good joints, at least they seem. Everything was clean around the opamp
  So then I plugged the card... Oh god, the sound was kind of crispy. I mean, there was some kind of crackling which frequency was 1:1 synchronous with the one of music. I mean, if I want to listen to 50Hz, the crackling is also at the same frequency. But I could also feel the magic sound in same time.
  I tried to unshorten the caps... Then one of the channels stopped working.
  Then I tried reinstalling the drivers and moving the card to another PCI slot.. Both channes were online again, but the sound were still crispy..
  Now I reinstalled the drivers again and only the left channel is working, the right sound very low. Stereo channels just gives a bad crispy sound.
  Good thing I found a picture with the traces of the connections. But gonna take a look at the card tomorrow.


----------



## 50AE

Guys, I'm really confused.
  I checked with a multimeter every conductive path to the 1-8 pins of the opamp. They all were OK
  I decided to replace the opamp with the same new one. I didn't change a thing 
  I checked the paths conductivity again, they were ok.
  I don't see any component missing. I can't remember  being rude, touching or ripping something with my soldering gun.
  The solderings are very clean and neat.
  I can't understand what is going on.
  I shorted the 4 caps again and the crackling noise went down quite much, but I can still hear it a little. But only the left channel works...


----------



## sobi123

Hi all !
   
  After horrible soldering jobs and 3 cards later I can atest that it should not be a beginners soldering venture. It's hard , if not impossible to do for a novice in soldering. 
   
  Saying all that I soldered one Xtrememusic wrong, The left channel was working, beautifully but on it's own it was meh anyway...
  anyway I gave it to my friend and he did some soldering on it, which was bad as well but to our amazement he made both channels work beautifully like it was a 1000 quid dac. It made Creative inspire's sound like B&W Nautilius 
   
  Thinking I could replicate his feat I bought Elite pro, was thinking I would be smart and give it to an electrician. He soldered everything nice and clean, but the sound was incomparable to xtreme music which was botched but sounding awesome. It had LM4562 and shortened coupling caps. It sounded okay but not magical and emotional at all like the other did. 
   
  I was planning to take it somewhere to get more mods done on it, but I've lost it somewhere dunno where...
   
  So I bought another Xtreme music thinking elite pro could not compare for some reason. Try to desolder front opamp...the **** pad came off again ! this time I was going with AD8599. I thought ****..I've screwed another card....could have bought a decent DAC by now. But studying Criminology at uni taught me rational thinking. 
  If the first card was botched and my friend botched it to the point of no return, maybe I could replicate this ingeniousness ? 
   
  And so I went into soldering rage and desoldered all opamps apart from the one for mic input as BAD as I could. And  what ?
   
  IT screw*NG WORKS ! The sound is beautiful, distortion free and so bloody pleasant I can't understand why. But who cares it's working. And it's not as quiet as I thought it would be. 
   
  For those who have destroyed their pads and thought their card is junk and beyond repair, desolder those person opamps (unless you are without a separate decoupling in a headphone amp or speaker amp that is) and make your card sing again.
   
  Pictures and RMAA results tomorrow !


----------



## sobi123

et voila !


----------



## guy121

So I bought a regular PCI-E X-Fi Titanium SB880 (the one without the shield) about a year ago and just finished this mod. I'm not an audiophile by any means and just using some simple JVC HA-RX700 with some basic mods, but got to say this mod makes music sound much much nicer. Mainly using my computer for gaming, so I'll soon see how that works out.
   
  I've done a few simple SMD soldering jobs before, but my method is not quite perfect yet. This was actually very easy. I use an 80 watt temp controlled soldering iron mainly cause I don't have to heat soak any components.
   
  So I know many have been changing the caps for the PCI version, but there seems to be very little information on the PCI-E version. Can you change any cap with the same rating Elna Silmic II? I've actually got quite a few and was thinking of just changing out a few caps. Would it make a difference?


----------



## lolwatpear

I have a couple question:

1. would this be a good iron for the job (tip fin enough, and temp/wattage good)? I have a crappy radioshack one that I'm not confident with.

http://www.amazon.com/Stahl-Tools-Variable-Temperature-Soldering/dp/B0029N70WM/ref=wl_it_dp_o?ie=UTF8&coliid=I2SG24VNRXYDG2&colid=3MK4YL3J1CR15

2. After cutting off the old opamp, do I really need to desolder the legs at all? Why can't I just solder on the new opamp?

3. What soldering process should I use for the most ease? I saw someone use some liquids solder early? What do you recommend?


----------



## guy121

Quote: 





lolwatpear said:


> I have a couple question:
> 
> 1. would this be a good iron for the job (tip fin enough, and temp/wattage good)? I have a crappy radioshack one that I'm not confident with.
> 
> ...


 



 That iron looks really cheap and reviews are pretty bad. Don't knock radioshack's irons as I have their 15watt and 30watt and they work pretty well for basic soldering, but because I think there is only one tip its hard to do SMD soldering.
   
  You're not confident, probably because you don't quite have a handle on what a good solder joint is. Also there are little things that you notice after a while of soldering things, like what works and what doesn't. Everyone kinda has their own style at the way they solder things, so its more just practice.
   
  Easiest way to do this is probably with a reflow station and some solder paste. Since you probably don't have either, with an iron its pretty simple.
   
  1) Cut off old op-amp
  2) Apply a little flux to pads that holds old legs
  3) Melt the solder and then "scrape" to the side (don't actually scrape) and lift to get the solder and leg to stick to iron. Repeat till legs are off.
  4) Apply flux to pads.
  5) Desolder old solder with desoldering braid
  6) Tin pads with a tiny bit of new solder and make sure its nice and even
  7) Clean pads/area with 91%+ rubbing alcohol to remove old flux. I guess this part depends on the type of flux/solder you're using.
  8) Align new op-amp then tap the leg and pad with the iron and some fresh solder.
  9) Desolder a leg if you applied too much (remember only takes a small amount for this).
  10) Clean legs/pads with 91%+ rubbing alcohol.
  11) Test with Multimeter. Don't forget to test for shorts.
   
  Forgot to say, Be sure to keep the tip clean and tinned. Meaning wipe it with the sponge then apply new solder to all around the tip. Then wipe off excess solder.


----------



## lolwatpear

Quote: 





guy121 said:


> That iron looks really cheap and reviews are pretty bad. Don't knock radioshack's irons as I have their 15watt and 30watt and they work pretty well for basic soldering, but because I think there is only one tip its hard to do SMD soldering.
> 
> You're not confident, probably because you don't quite have a handle on what a good solder joint is. Also there are little things that you notice after a while of soldering things, like what works and what doesn't. Everyone kinda has their own style at the way they solder things, so its more just practice.
> 
> ...


 
   
  thanks for the advice. i'll try this. but what I was talking about with the radioshack iron, was i feel the tip isn't fine enough for me to work with.  I've done some decent work in the past, but nothing on something so small.  I don't even see how I can solder one leg at a time with such a thick tip.


----------



## guy121

Quote: 





lolwatpear said:


> thanks for the advice. i'll try this. but what I was talking about with the radioshack iron, was i feel the tip isn't fine enough for me to work with.  I've done some decent work in the past, but nothing on something so small.  I don't even see how I can solder one leg at a time with such a thick tip.


 

 Oh yeah the tip is a bit too big. Although I've found very thin tips to actually be harder to use on pcb components since they cool down very quick and often can't melt the solder without heatsoaking, which is bad. I think you should be able to get each leg even with a larger tip, it just takes patience and a steady hand. If you bridge the legs, you can either do the swipe and lift method to try to remove the excess or preferably use a desoldering braid. You can try drag soldering, which will work just fine for larger tips, but takes a little practice to get right.
   
  The way I did it was with a larger chisel tip and got one leg soldered on so that it holds the chip down in place. Then for every other leg just tap a tiny bit of solder onto the leg + pad at the same time. This should get it to flow and be just fine. If you have the 30watt it should be plenty of heat to get it to stick within a second or two.


----------



## Telim

I've seem to have lifted the pad for the non-inverting input for the center/sub op-amp. Anyone happen to know where I can tap off to get the non-inverting input on the board?


----------



## satanel

Hi guys! Recently I got hold of an Extreme Music card and some parts for 'hotrodding'.
  I am a noob at soldering so I will give the card to one of my friends to do all the work.
   
  The kit contains 1 x LM4562 MA, 3 x LME49860 MA, 1 x 2200UF/16V Panasonic, 2 x 100 uF/16v Nichicon Gold, 6 x 220 uF/10V Elna and 1 x 330uF/25V. Unfortunately the op-amps don't have anything written on them.
   
  http://img542.imageshack.us/img542/8541/img0667z.jpg
  http://img804.imageshack.us/img804/6500/img0668mh.jpg
   
  I need your help in mapping the parts and their place on the board by using colors, as shown in the pic.
   
  http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/7731/extrememusic.png
  
  Thank you in advance! 
   
  PS: I don't know how to embed imageshack thumbnails here so I've posted the direct link to the images.


----------



## satanel

Nobody?


----------



## ramachandra

I'm not sure You have the right capacitors other than 2200UF/16V Panasonic. Not a good idea to change the capacitance, unless you know what will be the effect on the circuit. The X-Fi card have mostly 16v and 25v capacitors, i suggest not to go under the original voltage. Higher voltage is usually better but the capacitors are bigger, and the space is too small for big caps.


----------



## Groundloop

You started a new thread without any need of it. It's the same mod, but you decided to show off yourself as the great copycat who even did things wrong. Sorry, wheel had been already invented.


----------



## ramachandra

I have removed the link from my last message just in case before i get more blame.


----------



## XacTactX

groundloop said:


> You started a new thread without any need of it. It's the same mod, but you decided to show off yourself as the great copycat who even did things wrong. Sorry, wheel had been already invented.




If that is the case I, and I'm sure other people would appreciate it if you posted what you think is wrong. Are you talking about the long wires connecting some of the components? Sorry if I'm kicking a dead horse it's just that I'm about to do the mod myself, minus the long wires.


----------



## Groundloop

@XacTactX - I have already answered your questions in @ramachandra's thread. Also, you have 144 pages of useful advices in this thread. I've read them long time ago and suggest you to do so too.


----------



## ReTiCuLe

Has anyone done the PCI-E Titanium card yet?


----------



## bflmpes

Greetings guys. I bought old X-fi xtreme music and did this mod but I get something wrong. My card is not detecting in Windows any more. I replaced main OPAMP , replaced power filter capacitor by 2200uF 16V (ZLH Rubycon - best I could get in our country :/ ). But I didnt short filter capacitors, I pull them out and short it by wire. I tried to read responses if someone got the same problem but 144 pages is just too much. Ive got Xtreme music SB0460 fatality version with that blackbox no the top right corner (SB0550?).
  Can anyone knows what should be wrong?


----------



## ramachandra

C184 (0.1uf) capacitor is to close to the leg of the C177 capacitor. Once died for me from overheat, and i had the same experience as you. I have managed to change and the card still up and running.


----------



## bflmpes

I will try that. Thank you.


----------



## bflmpes

Hey,
  so I put everything back to its place, exchanged the 0,1uF capacitor for the new one and.. nothing. Its dead  Something's blown up I suppose. Thanks for your help anyway.


----------



## XacTactX

I did this mod by following the guide by ramachandra, so I used Silmic II 1500/16 for the main power filtering cap, but I also ordered the Nichicon KG 2200/63 that was recommended in this guide. How in the world do you fit that thing onto a sound card?!?!? It looks like it would be impossible. It was hard enough to fit the Silmic II (my father helped me with it, he found a small area with no components or resistors and  glued the cap sideways).
   
  So my question is, have any of you actually put the Nichicon KG 2200/63 on this?


----------



## lolwatpear

I did the mod, but the volume is extremely low.  sound is coming from both sides, but I can hardly hear it on maximum.  What I can hear though, sounds great and hope I can get this fixed.  Does anyone know why the volume would be low?  I've only installed the opamp.  It appears it's seated fine.  I saw someone earlier in the thread who fixed this problem, which seems identical to mine:
   
  "It seems part of the AD8599 v- pin was somehow cut off even though I did not do anything like that. I just added more solder to connect that joint and it now works out perfectly"
   
  but, i don't understand what this means.
   
   
  edit: 
   
   
  I think this pad might have come off:
   

   
  I cannot find a diagram in this thread showing where it goes to.  I have no multimeter, and don't know how to use it.  Can someone just tell me where it goes?
   
  edit:  found a diagram, and i don't think the V- was the problem.  I have no idea what to do.


----------



## Baphomet

edit


----------



## audiogamer

Hey guys, kinda skipped to the end here has there are 150 pages on this thread. Can somebody give me specs for the caps they used to replace the power filter and decoupling caps?
   
  I heard 1000uf 16v cap on the power filter was good, is the correct?. On the first page there is a photo showing 4 caps that should be shorted. I would rather replace these, what spec caps should I use for them?
   
  Thanks in advance...


----------



## ryreinc

Hi, I'm interested in removing the high-pass/coupling cap on the X-fi's  (Xtreme Music) line-in input.  Could anyone direct me to which cap this is?  150 pages is too much to wade through!


----------



## ryreinc

Ok, I've bypassed C19, C48, and C49, which gives the line-in a direct connection (after 20k series resistance) to the ADC.  However, I've found from the ADC spec sheet that there is a digital highpass filter that can only be disabled through software.  Is anyone aware of a way to disable this, say through modded drivers?
   
  (I wish to use the soundcard as an A/D board, but my signals are too low frequency.)


----------



## job15

I have had my modded card for a couple of years now, its amazing. My first card i over heated and fu*t it up. My second card i still use today. I had never soldered before but i managed.My advise is buy the really thin solder and you need to read all of this thread, here is the link   http://www.head-fi.org/t/226975/hotrodding-the-x-fi-a-laymans-guide-no-56k


----------



## gordo999

I have been an electronics tech for several decades and I was horrified to read page 1 of this thread.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/226975/hotrodding-the-x-fi-a-laymans-guide-no-56k
  
 Never, never, never short a capacitor. That is sheer madness. Here's why.
  
 Capacitors for audio come in two basic types: electrolytic, which have larger capacitance and are polarized, and disk/paper/polyester/polystrene type, which are smaller and non-polarized.
  
 On the SB0550 for example, the caps are mainly electrolytic and will have a + sign to mark where they connect to a voltage which is more positive than the -ve terminal. In the case of current flow. Direct current (electrons) flows into the capacitor plates via the -ve terminal and are stored on the plates till they are discharged back out the -ve terminal.
  
 Normally, for filter caps and decoupling caps, that means the +ve goes to +5 volts, or +3.3 volts, and the -ve side goes to ground.
  
 The caps provide two services, they act as filters to smooth power supplies and bypass high frequency noise spikes or they couple signals from one stage to another. I saw a reference to tantalum capacitors which are not intended to be used in place of electrolytics. Tantalums are normally used in parallel with a much larger capacitor. Being of smaller capacitance and physical size, they will react to and bypass spikes which are not affected by larger capacitors. Tantalums shunt noise spikes past the larger electrolytic filters.
  
 If you short a capacitor that acts as a filter, you short the power supply and you blow something, usually the power supply or the regulator supplying that section. If you short a coupling capacitor that couples audio to the outside world, like an auxiliary out or a speaker, you expose the driving transistor, which may be in a chip, to damage.
  
 Part of the purpose of coupling capacitors is keeping higher voltages from driving currents through transistors or chips that they cannot handle. They are even referred to as DC blockers in that case. Output coupling capacitors in modern direct-coupled transistor stages are polarized to carry currents from transistor collectors to aux outs, speakers or headphones. If you short the cap, you defeat the function of the cap by which it returns stored current to the circuit. That will degrade the signal and make it sound raspy, it it doesn't blow a chip.
  
 It is claimed on page 1 that a higher quality chip (IC) replacement makes it OK to bypass the capacitor. That is wrong.
  
 While I'm at it. let's lay this nonsense to rest about replacing capacitors with higher quality capacitors, especially larger ones. Higher quality capacitors will only help when it comes to the insulators (dielectrics) between the capacitor plates. A capacitor is nothing more than two metallic plates, usually foil, separated by an insulator called a dielectric. When a voltage is impressed across the cap, current runs into the plate connected to the negative supply but only until it is charged. It will sit there fully charged till the supply voltage is lowered or reversed.
  
 The only advantage of a higher quality cap is cutting down on the likelihood of leakage through the dielectric from plate to plate. Higher quality caps will make no difference whatsoever to sound quality. In fact, when used to couple signals with capacitors, any capacitor will degrade the signal by altering the signal phase.
  
 That's the problem with passive devices like capacitors (C) and inductors (L) and it's why modern audio circuits use direct coupling to eliminate inductors and capacitors as coupling devices. L and C devices change the relationship of signal current to signal voltage therefore they distort signals.
  
 High quality audio power amps eliminate the output coupler but they use a fuse in series with the speakers or they have a current limiting circuit to prevent short circuit conditions if the output is shorted. With low signal circuits like auxiliary outs, there is no way to tell what the chip output is seeing so it's far safer to include a cap in series with the output to protect the chip. As a technician of longstanding, I find it insane to bypass output coupling caps. In fact, I find it insane to replace all those capacitors period.
  
 As an example, if you have a cap coupling audio from a chip to headphones, if the headphones short, or if anything shorts while plugging the headphones into the jack, the chip might blow. It probably will.
  
 Making caps larger serves no purpose. As filter components, capacitors are designed to work at 60 hertz for half wave rectifiers and 120 hertz for full wave rectifiers. The filtering action depends on the charge and discharge time of the capacitor which depends on it's size and the resistance through which it charges and discharges. They are designed to control ripple when an alternating current is rectified and the size must be fairly precise.
  
 Changing the size could insert distortion by affecting the ripple frequency of the filtering. Power supply caps have an optimal size and making them larger does nothing. Some circuits use regulator chips after the capacitor filter anyway.
  
 Making decoupling capacitors larger solves nothing either. Decoupler caps are placed all over the circuit board to decouple noise and spurious signals to ground. Making them larger messes with the kind of noise they can bypass. If you short them, you short the power supply, which is super dumb.
  
 Making output couplers larger can blow a chip. The amount of current through a chip's transistor junction is limited, or the junction will burn. The larger you make a capacitor, the more it appears to a rising signal edge through a junction as a short circuit, and the transient conditions may be too large for the junction to handle.
  
 Capacitors have the equivalent of a resistors resistance and it is called capacitive reactance. It is expressed in ohms. The reactance, Xc, is the inverse of the capacitance, so the larger you make a capacitor, the smaller the resistance is represents to an alternating signal. How could making the resistance lower possibly affect the fidelity of a signal? The fidelity depends on how well the signal is reproduced across a wide frequency band (20 -20,000 Hz for audio) and that depends on other matters like circuit design, distortion introduced by transistors, as well as other distortions like phase distortions from passive devices. The phase distortion from capacitors has nothing to do with capacitor quality, it is an in-built phenomenon of all inductors and capacitors related to the way they deal with currents running through them and into them.
  
 I have already pointed out that a capacitor distorts the signal by altering the phase relationship of the signal current to the signal voltage. That distortion is frequency dependent. Changing the cap quality does nothing to improve that phase distortion and it certainly cannot affect any other parameter to improve fidelity.


----------



## gordo999

> I know this is an old thread but for anyone coming across it, here's some stuff. Thanks to the poster of the previous post for the detailed info.
> 
> This thread is http://www.head-fi.org/t/226975/hotrodding-the-x-fi-a-laymans-guide-no-56k/1395, so find it and look at the previous thread.
> 
> ...


----------



## germanium

Some of what you are saying is false The coupling capacitors are in fact not needed in these circuits in order to function properly. Data sheets for the DACs will bare this out. Yes there is 2.5 volt on these coupling capacitors but when you bypass them by shorting the caps the 2.5 volts positive gets sent to BOTH the Plus & Minus input of the OPAMP. Since the same positive voltage is applied to both inputs the positive D.C. voltage is cancelled. Only the undistorted audio signal remains. Distortion remains low & the output takes on a fresh openness that eluded the cap coupled output section.
  
 Current in these output circuits to the  From the DAC to the opamp is much less than 1.5ma. Otherwise a much larger cap would be needed than 10uf to prevent loss of bass frequencies.
  
 I've been doing these mods for years with no failure of opamps DAC's or voltage regulators. The sound improvement is always the same. Improved soundstage , more openness & better sounding bass with more harmonic detail that can tell you the type instrument being played including the brand & model if one is astute to the sound of those particular instruments. Much of this sound is lost in the coupling caps found on these P.C. Audio cards. Not all coupling caps sound bad but to me Electrolytic coupling caps sound almost universally bad. Metallyzed film cap are much better but won't fit in the confines of a computer sound card. Since good quality caps won't fit then direct coupling is in fact the best option from a sound point of view.


----------



## gordo999

germanium said:


>


 
  >>>Some of what you are saying is false. The coupling capacitors are in fact not needed in these circuits in order to function properly. Data sheets for the DACs will bare this out.
  
 Just want to clarify that my post was not intended as a flame. I appreciate the amount of work that went into the mod and some of the related information was of benefit to me.
  
 I was not talking about DAC output. I was referring to this quote from the original post:
  
 "Opamps and capacitors are the two worst offenders of sound quality. With any soundcard you can change these opamps to far better ones, remove capacitors no longer needed due to the better opamp, and give it more power by increasing the size of the power supply filter capacitors on the sound card".
  
 This statement has several inaccuracies. Opamps by themselves are highly unlikely to contribute to poor fidelity. Most modern opamps have ideal circuitry and are far superior to circuits built from discrete components. Furthermore, you cannot simply change one opamp for another unless it is a fairly direct replacement.
  
 The audio output opamps used on the X-Fi are already low noise, high performance opamps:
  
 http://semicon.njr.co.jp/eng/product/opamp/NJM2068.html
  
 It's high unlikely that replacing them with the LM4562 will make that much of a difference. Sound quality is often relative to the ears of those listening.
  
 Capacitors do degrade sound fidelity but the degradation is probably not noticeable to the average ear. Caps only degrade the phase shift of the signal between its current and voltage components. However, that kind of degradation is typical of any amplifier since their frequency response is frequency dependent.
  
 In the statement above it claims you can replace caps 'no longer needed' due to the better opamp. That is simply incorrect. The cap is an integral part of the push-pull output stage used in opamps. Output caps are used even in high quality power amps.
  
 A push-pull stage uses two transistors. In the bipolar junction type, they use either two NPNs or a complimentary paired NPN-PNP combo. The NPN pair is more common since it's easier to match two NPNs than it is an NPN to a PNP. When you have a pair operating, only one transistor is running at one time. The input signal is split between them so that the +ve going signal part drives one transistor and the -ve going side drives the other. That is called a Class AB1 amplifier.
  
 With AB1, there is a transition zone as the +ve going output signal changes over to the -ve going signal. The output capacitor helps smooth that transition, otherwise the distorted signal transition sounds raspy through the speakers. It actually sounds like bees, and the distortion region as viewed on an oscilliscope look like 'bees knees'.
  
 Besides that function, the capacitor is required for operation with a single ended power supply. During one half of the signal cycle, the cap stores charge from one transistor, then releases the charge through the other transistor on the other half cycle. Without the cap, the circuit wont work correctly.
  
 The quote above also claims that increasing the size of the filter caps will increase power. Not true. Increasing the size of the caps may even reduce it. The caps are used to smooth out the rectified signal when a rectifier bridge converts the alternating supply voltage to a pulsating +ve voltage. The caps are designed to hold enough charge so that the charge will be released through the load a certain amount before the next rectified pulse. If the cap is too large, it will no longer function with the correct RC time constant.
  
 In another part of the article:
  
 "Replace the sound card's power supply capacitors with larger ones that are at least several times the original value. Quality matters, especially specs like ripple current".
  
 Not true and not worth it.
  
 And again:
  
 "...some of them [opamps] (are??) extremely esoteric, requiring its own special power supply. Some of them plain unstable".
  
 There is no such thing as a modern opamp that is unstable. If you use them in the wrong circuit they might be, however. There is a big difference between an opamp using bipolar junction transistors and one using MOS technology (CMOS). You just can't take any old opamps and solder it into the circuit where another has been removed, just as you can't replace any transistor with any other transistor. Opamps have specialized uses and it's little wonder the author found some unstable.
  
 It takes a lot of experience in electronics and a lot of research to replace one component with another.
  
 Then this:
  
 "I don't have the schematics to the X-Fi so I don't know how to apply them. If others discover new mods I can add them to the list. Short the 22uF caps near each opamp...."
  
 The author admits not having a schematic then advises the reader to short a component. That is just not done in electronics. Before I ventured into an X-Fi circuit, I would make my own schematic and I would not replace or short components till I understood exactly what they did. Even at that, it is not always possible to understand the original design. They may have had trouble with stability during the design phase and added a cap for stability.
  
 Shorting anything is never a good idea in electronics unless one knows exactly what he/she is doing.
  
 From the article:
  
 "...you bypass the opamps completely and use a discrete analog output stage..."
  
 Makes no sense whatsoever. Opamps are superior to discrete-component amps because they can be built on the same silicon wafer. The problem with discrete components is matching the transistors and other components. In an opamp, transistors and components can be matched to near perfection
  
 Bypassing an opamp is not as easy as it sounds. There are components built into the sound card that depend on having the opamp be there as a load or input. Removing the opamp without disabling the circuits could lead to instability. For example, I bypassed a circuit in a TV once by removing it's input and output connectors and disabling a regulator supplying voltage to the circuit. While I was doing something else, with the TV powered off, the sound circuit suddenly started operating. Nothing else was operating, just the sound circuit. It made no sense but such is life in the world of electronics.
  
 Finally....
  
 "Passive Output Mod - like in the discrete mod, you bypass the opamps completely, and use either a transformer or a bandpass filter
 Alternatively, you can simply use a RC highpass filter..."
  
 Why would anyone want to introduce a transformer into a high fidelity circuit? The inductance in the transformer distorts the output signals phase just as the coupling capacitor does.
  
 There is an argument among so-called purists that tube amps are superior to transistor amps. That is nonsense, and I have repaired tube amps at one time. The problem with tube amps, besides the unreliable nature of tubes, due to the heat they produce, is the large output transformer required. It acts as a filter that distorts the tube output signal, making it sound soft. People are mistaking a distorted sound for better quality.
  
 You can do the same, if you like, by taking the near perfect fidelity of a well designed transistor amp and running it through a filter.
  
 Why, why, why would anyone attach an RC highpass filter to an audio amp to improve the sound? All you are doing is cutting the lows and passing the noise.
  
 *********************

  
 >>>>Yes there is 2.5 volt on these coupling capacitors but when you bypass them by shorting the caps the 2.5 volts positive gets sent to BOTH the Plus & Minus input of the OPAMP.
  
 You are likely talking about the DAC output here. I can tell you one thing, almost for sure. If the coupling caps were not required they would not be there. Inter-stage coupling caps are used to keep direct currents from one circuit from flowing through the circuits of other components. Do you think engineers would use them if direct coupling was a superior option?
  
 >>>I've been doing these mods for years with no failure of opamps DAC's or voltage regulators.
  
 As I said, I have no intention of flaming and I applaud your effort. However, I have several decades experience in electronics, having spent several years on the bench repairing every kind of amp from tube amps to transistor amps. I am also highly trained with several years at university studying electrical engineering. All I am trying to do is pass on information that might prevent an inexperienced user from blowing his/her sound card.
  
 I would never attempt your mods blindly without first making a schematic and spending hours researching the effects of the mods.
  
 I do have an interest in modding the connections between various Creative products to make the drives from one work with another.
  
 For example, some card have the Ad_Link connector on the front of the card. I have an SB0550 used with the Elite Pro external model and I'd like to see if the SB0460, with the same Ad_link connector will work with the Elite Pro. I wont try any mods till I am absolutely sure they wont blow anything or compromise the integrity of the original design.


----------



## gordo999

germanium said:


>


 
  >>>Some of what you are saying is false. The coupling capacitors are in fact not needed in these circuits in order to function properly. Data sheets for the DACs will bare this out.
  
 Just want to clarify that my post was not intended as a flame. I appreciate the amount of work that went into the mod and some of the related information was of benefit to me.
  
 I was not talking about DAC output. I was referring to this quote from the original post:
  
 "Opamps and capacitors are the two worst offenders of sound quality. With any soundcard you can change these opamps to far better ones, remove capacitors no longer needed due to the better opamp, and give it more power by increasing the size of the power supply filter capacitors on the sound card".
  
 This statement has several inaccuracies. Opamps by themselves are highly unlikely to contribute to poor fidelity. Most modern opamps have ideal circuitry and are far superior to circuits built from discrete components. Furthermore, you cannot simply change one opamp for another unless it is a fairly direct replacement.
  
 The audio output opamps used on the X-Fi are already low noise, high performance opamps.It's high unlikely that replacing them with the LM4562 will make that much of a difference. Sound quality is often relative to the ears of those listening.
  
 Capacitors do degrade sound fidelity but the degradation is probably not noticeable to the average ear. Caps only degrade the phase shift of the signal between its current and voltage components. However, that kind of degradation is typical of any amplifier since their frequency response is frequency dependent.
  
 In the statement above it claims you can replace caps 'no longer needed' due to the better opamp. That is simply incorrect. The cap is an integral part of the push-pull output stage used in opamps. Output caps are used even in high quality power amps.
  
 A push-pull stage uses two transistors. In the bipolar junction type, they use either two NPNs or a complimentary paired NPN-PNP combo. The NPN pair is more common since it's easier to match two NPNs than it is an NPN to a PNP. When you have a pair operating, only one transistor is running at one time. The input signal is split between them so that the +ve going signal part drives one transistor and the -ve going side drives the other. That is called a Class AB1 amplifier.
  
 With AB1, there is a transition zone as the +ve going output signal changes over to the -ve going signal. The output capacitor helps smooth that transition, otherwise the distorted signal transition sounds raspy through the speakers. It actually sounds like bees, and the distortion region as viewed on an oscilliscope look like 'bees knees'.
  
 Besides that function, the capacitor is required for operation with a single ended power supply. During one half of the signal cycle, the cap stores charge from one transistor, then releases the charge through the other transistor on the other half cycle. Without the cap, the circuit wont work correctly.
  
 The quote above also claims that increasing the size of the filter caps will increase power. Not true. Increasing the size of the caps may even reduce it. The caps are used to smooth out the rectified signal when a rectifier bridge converts the alternating supply voltage to a pulsating +ve voltage. The caps are designed to hold enough charge so that the charge will be released through the load a certain amount before the next rectified pulse. If the cap is too large, it will no longer function with the correct RC time constant.
  
 In another part of the article:
  
 "Replace the sound card's power supply capacitors with larger ones that are at least several times the original value. Quality matters, especially specs like ripple current".
  
 Not true and not worth it.
  
 And again:
  
 "...some of them [opamps] (are??) extremely esoteric, requiring its own special power supply. Some of them plain unstable".
  
 There is no such thing as a modern opamp that is unstable. If you use them in the wrong circuit they might be, however. There is a big difference between an opamp using bipolar junction transistors and one using MOS technology (CMOS). You just can't take any old opamps and solder it into the circuit where another has been removed, just as you can't replace any transistor with any other transistor. Opamps have specialized uses and it's little wonder the author found some unstable.
  
 It takes a lot of experience in electronics and a lot of research to replace one component with another.
  
 Then this:
  
 "I don't have the schematics to the X-Fi so I don't know how to apply them. If others discover new mods I can add them to the list. Short the 22uF caps near each opamp...."
  
 The author admits not having a schematic then advises the reader to short a component. That is just not done in electronics. Before I ventured into an X-Fi circuit, I would make my own schematic and I would not replace or short components till I understood exactly what they did. Even at that, it is not always possible to understand the original design. They may have had trouble with stability during the design phase and added a cap for stability.
  
 Shorting anything is never a good idea in electronics unless one knows exactly what he/she is doing.
  
 From the article:
  
 "...you bypass the opamps completely and use a discrete analog output stage..."
  
 Makes no sense whatsoever. Opamps are superior to discrete-component amps because they can be built on the same silicon wafer. The problem with discrete components is matching the transistors and other components. In an opamp, transistors and components can be matched to near perfection
  
 Bypassing an opamp is not as easy as it sounds. There are components built into the sound card that depend on having the opamp be there as a load or input. Removing the opamp without disabling the circuits could lead to instability. For example, I bypassed a circuit in a TV once by removing it's input and output connectors and disabling a regulator supplying voltage to the circuit. While I was doing something else, with the TV powered off, the sound circuit suddenly started operating. Nothing else was operating, just the sound circuit. It made no sense but such is life in the world of electronics.
  
 Finally....
  
 "Passive Output Mod - like in the discrete mod, you bypass the opamps completely, and use either a transformer or a bandpass filter
 Alternatively, you can simply use a RC highpass filter..."
  
 Why would anyone want to introduce a transformer into a high fidelity circuit? The inductance in the transformer distorts the output signals phase just as the coupling capacitor does.
  
 There is an argument among so-called purists that tube amps are superior to transistor amps. That is nonsense, and I have repaired tube amps at one time. The problem with tube amps, besides the unreliable nature of tubes, due to the heat they produce, is the large output transformer required. It acts as a filter that distorts the tube output signal, making it sound soft. People are mistaking a distorted sound for better quality.
  
 You can do the same, if you like, by taking the near perfect fidelity of a well designed transistor amp and running it through a filter.
  
 Why, why, why would anyone attach an RC highpass filter to an audio amp to improve the sound? All you are doing is cutting the lows and passing the noise.
  
 *********************

  
 >>>>Yes there is 2.5 volt on these coupling capacitors but when you bypass them by shorting the caps the 2.5 volts positive gets sent to BOTH the Plus & Minus input of the OPAMP.
  
 You are likely talking about the DAC output here. I can tell you one thing, almost for sure. If the coupling caps were not required they would not be there. Inter-stage coupling caps are used to keep direct currents from one circuit from flowing through the circuits of other components. Do you think engineers would use them if direct coupling was a superior option?
  
 >>>I've been doing these mods for years with no failure of opamps DAC's or voltage regulators.
  
 As I said, I have no intention of flaming and I applaud your effort. However, I have several decades experience in electronics, having spent several years on the bench repairing every kind of amp from tube amps to transistor amps. I am also highly trained with several years at university studying electrical engineering. All I am trying to do is pass on information that might prevent an inexperienced user from blowing his/her sound card.
  
 I would never attempt your mods blindly without first making a schematic and spending hours researching the effects of the mods.
  
 I do have an interest in modding the connections between various Creative products to make the drives from one work with another.
  
 For example, some card have the Ad_Link connector on the front of the card. I have an SB0550 used with the Elite Pro external model and I'd like to see if the SB0460, with the same Ad_link connector will work with the Elite Pro. I wont try any mods till I am absolutely sure they wont blow anything or compromise the integrity of the original design.


----------



## gordo999

germanium said:


>


 
  >>>Some of what you are saying is false. The coupling capacitors are in fact not needed in these circuits in order to function properly. Data sheets for the DACs will bare this out.
  
 Just want to clarify that my post was not intended as a flame. I appreciate the amount of work that went into the mod and some of the related information was of benefit to me.
  
 I was not talking about DAC output. I was referring to this quote from the original post:
  
 "Opamps and capacitors are the two worst offenders of sound quality. With any soundcard you can change these opamps to far better ones, remove capacitors no longer needed due to the better opamp, and give it more power by increasing the size of the power supply filter capacitors on the sound card".
  
 This statement has several inaccuracies. Opamps by themselves are highly unlikely to contribute to poor fidelity. Most modern opamps have ideal circuitry and are far superior to circuits built from discrete components. Furthermore, you cannot simply change one opamp for another unless it is a fairly direct replacement.
  
 The audio output opamps used on the X-Fi are already low noise, high performance opamps. It's high unlikely that replacing them with the LM4562 will make that much of a difference. Sound quality is often relative to the ears of those listening.
  
 Capacitors do degrade sound fidelity but the degradation is probably not noticeable to the average ear. Caps only degrade the phase shift of the signal between its current and voltage components. However, that kind of degradation is typical of any amplifier since their frequency response is frequency dependent.
  
 In the statement above it claims you can replace caps 'no longer needed' due to the better opamp. That is simply incorrect. The cap is an integral part of the push-pull output stage used in opamps. Output caps are used even in high quality power amps.
  
 A push-pull stage uses two transistors. In the bipolar junction type, they use either two NPNs or a complimentary paired NPN-PNP combo. The NPN pair is more common since it's easier to match two NPNs than it is an NPN to a PNP. When you have a pair operating, only one transistor is running at one time. The input signal is split between them so that the +ve going signal part drives one transistor and the -ve going side drives the other. That is called a Class AB1 amplifier.
  
 With AB1, there is a transition zone as the +ve going output signal changes over to the -ve going signal. The output capacitor helps smooth that transition, otherwise the distorted signal transition sounds raspy through the speakers. It actually sounds like bees, and the distortion region as viewed on an oscilliscope look like 'bees knees'.
  
 Besides that function, the capacitor is required for operation with a single ended power supply. During one half of the signal cycle, the cap stores charge from one transistor, then releases the charge through the other transistor on the other half cycle. Without the cap, the circuit wont work correctly.
  
 The quote above also claims that increasing the size of the filter caps will increase power. Not true. Increasing the size of the caps may even reduce it. The caps are used to smooth out the rectified signal when a rectifier bridge converts the alternating supply voltage to a pulsating +ve voltage. The caps are designed to hold enough charge so that the charge will be released through the load a certain amount before the next rectified pulse. If the cap is too large, it will no longer function with the correct RC time constant.
  
 In another part of the article:
  
 "Replace the sound card's power supply capacitors with larger ones that are at least several times the original value. Quality matters, especially specs like ripple current".
  
 Not true and not worth it.
  
 And again:
  
 "...some of them [opamps] (are??) extremely esoteric, requiring its own special power supply. Some of them plain unstable".
  
 There is no such thing as a modern opamp that is unstable. If you use them in the wrong circuit they might be, however. There is a big difference between an opamp using bipolar junction transistors and one using MOS technology (CMOS). You just can't take any old opamps and solder it into the circuit where another has been removed, just as you can't replace any transistor with any other transistor. Opamps have specialized uses and it's little wonder the author found some unstable.
  
 It takes a lot of experience in electronics and a lot of research to replace one component with another.
  
 Then this:
  
 "I don't have the schematics to the X-Fi so I don't know how to apply them. If others discover new mods I can add them to the list. Short the 22uF caps near each opamp...."
  
 The author admits not having a schematic then advises the reader to short a component. That is just not done in electronics. Before I ventured into an X-Fi circuit, I would make my own schematic and I would not replace or short components till I understood exactly what they did. Even at that, it is not always possible to understand the original design. They may have had trouble with stability during the design phase and added a cap for stability.
  
 Shorting anything is never a good idea in electronics unless one knows exactly what he/she is doing.
  
 From the article:
  
 "...you bypass the opamps completely and use a discrete analog output stage..."
  
 Makes no sense whatsoever. Opamps are superior to discrete-component amps because they can be built on the same silicon wafer. The problem with discrete components is matching the transistors and other components. In an opamp, transistors and components can be matched to near perfection
  
 Bypassing an opamp is not as easy as it sounds. There are components built into the sound card that depend on having the opamp be there as a load or input. Removing the opamp without disabling the circuits could lead to instability. For example, I bypassed a circuit in a TV once by removing it's input and output connectors and disabling a regulator supplying voltage to the circuit. While I was doing something else, with the TV powered off, the sound circuit suddenly started operating. Nothing else was operating, just the sound circuit. It made no sense but such is life in the world of electronics.
  
 Finally....
  
 "Passive Output Mod - like in the discrete mod, you bypass the opamps completely, and use either a transformer or a bandpass filter
 Alternatively, you can simply use a RC highpass filter..."
  
 Why would anyone want to introduce a transformer into a high fidelity circuit? The inductance in the transformer distorts the output signals phase just as the coupling capacitor does.
  
 There is an argument among so-called purists that tube amps are superior to transistor amps. That is nonsense, and I have repaired tube amps at one time. The problem with tube amps, besides the unreliable nature of tubes, due to the heat they produce, is the large output transformer required. It acts as a filter that distorts the tube output signal, making it sound soft. People are mistaking a distorted sound for better quality.
  
 You can do the same, if you like, by taking the near perfect fidelity of a well designed transistor amp and running it through a filter.
  
 Why, why, why would anyone attach an RC highpass filter to an audio amp to improve the sound? All you are doing is cutting the lows and passing the noise.
  
 *********************

  
 >>>>Yes there is 2.5 volt on these coupling capacitors but when you bypass them by shorting the caps the 2.5 volts positive gets sent to BOTH the Plus & Minus input of the opamp.."
  
 You are likely talking about the DAC output here. I can tell you one thing, almost for sure. If the coupling caps were not required they would not be there. Inter-stage coupling caps are used to keep direct currents from one circuit from flowing through the circuits of other components. Do you think engineers would use them if direct coupling was a superior option?
  
 >>>I've been doing these mods for years with no failure of opamps DAC's or voltage regulators.
  
 As I said, I have no intention of flaming and I applaud your effort. However, I have several decades experience in electronics, having spent several years on the bench repairing every kind of amp from tube amps to transistor amps. I am also highly trained with several years at university studying electrical engineering. All I am trying to do is pass on information that might prevent an inexperienced user from blowing his/her sound card.
  
 I would never attempt your mods blindly without first making a schematic and spending hours researching the effects of the mods.
  
 I do have an interest in modding the connections between various Creative products to make the drives from one work with another.
  
 For example, some card have the Ad_Link connector on the front of the card. I have an SB0550 used with the Elite Pro external model and I'd like to see if the SB0460, with the same Ad_link connector will work with the Elite Pro. I wont try any mods till I am absolutely sure they wont blow anything or compromise the integrity of the original design.


----------



## gordo999

germanium said:


>


 

 Germanium...some added info for you.
  
 I have not worked with opamps for a long time and in my day the LM725 was the hallmark of opamps. It was an instrumentation opamp meaning it operated very precisely. However, to get that precision, you had to add external circuits.
  
 The X-Fi uses an NMJ2068 dual opamp, meaning it squeezes two opamps into one package. With a + and - input and output on each opamp, plus the required power supply inputs, all 8 pins are used up.
  
 The LM725 was an 8 pin device as well but had only one opamp in the package. It had extra pins available with which external circuits could control the offset drift and supply frequency compensation.
  
 If anything, the dual opamp used in the X-Fi suffers from a lack of that external control.
  
 You might be able to remove the NMJ2068s and use some kind of daughter board to add 8 pin single opamps that allow external control. You would have to extend the NMJ2068 pads to the daughter board for input and output. You could take the required power supply voltage from elsewhere, or from the same pads.
  
 If you get a data sheet for the NMJ2068 that shows an equivalent circuit, you will see the output being taken from between two resistors in between two output transistors. They are using the NPN/PNP complimentary symmetry arrangement which is a Class AB1 design. The AB1 has an inherent distortion at the crossover point between the +ve and -ve going output signal and it requires an output capacitor in some cases to smooth out the distortion.
  
 The capacitor works much like a power supply capacitor, although it is actually coupling signal to the output. In a power supply, the output of the rectifier stage is a pulsating DC with the capacitor right across the stage output. The capacitor charges to the peak voltage of the positive DC pulse, but as the sinusoidal waveform of the DC pulse decreases, the cap tend to hold the voltage at the peak. Between pulses, the cap tends to hold the voltage flat causing a pure DC but it does drain off through the load, depending on the RC time constant.
  
 When viewed through a scope, the DC has a ripple in it at either 60 hz or 120 hz. All RC-based circuits leave a slight ripple which can be removed with a regulator.
  
 At the output of an audio amp, the cap is attached in series with the load to the neutral point between output transistors. The resistors you see on the equivalent drawing are the emitter resistors for each output transistor. As the input signal varies between +ve and -ve peaks, each output transistor will be on an equivalent amount of time. There is a point, however, between the +ve to -ve output signal transition (crossover point) where both transistors are off. In this region, the outputs from each output transistor do no coincide, causing a potential overlap which can be heard as a buzzing sound.
  
 There are several solutions attempted but one of the simplest is to include an output capacitor. The cap can stabilize the crossover distortion region by maintaining the voltage till one transistor begins firing again. There are purely direct coupled output designs with the speaker connected right to the crossover point. Most amps I have seen, however, use a cap. If you omit it, you need to compensate using feedback and/or bias adjustments on the transistor input. Since there are none available in a dual opamp package, you can't get at them.
  
 You would save yourself a lot of grief by leaving the caps in the circuit.


----------



## germanium

The fact is these coupling caps are not required & in most cases the quality of the coupling cap does in fact reduce output quality especially on these cards. The opamps in question are actually used in most pro audio equipment so the opamps should not be a source of bad audio & are more stable than some of the opamps people are replacing them with.

Every one of the opamps used in the Creative labs audio cards & the Asus cards are the ones recommended at least at some point by the DAC manufacturer With the exception of the main output of the low end X-fi cards which was chosen to be able to drive headphones as it is higher current capable. I found them to be plenty good once direct coupled.

The low end X-Fi card does have higher d.c. output when direct coupled than is safe for D.C. coupled amps which can amplify D.C. though but D.C. coupled amps are not likely to be used with these cards anyway as most would be priced way out of the typical price range of equipment used with such a card.  Any other type amp is ok to use with these cards when fully direct coupled.

The X-Fi Elite pro & the Asus Xonar D2/PM as well as the Xonar Essence ST & STX have very low D.C. ouput when fully direct coupled. The Xonar D2/PM is fully direct coupled from the factory. These card have such low D.C. output that that they can feed a D.C. coupled amp & maybe even reduce the intrinsic D.C. output of some of those amps by having a lower D.C. output than the D.C. present from their own input with nothing attached. This cannot be done with a capacitor coupled final output section by the way as the inputs D.C. output cannot reach the output of the final stage opamp of the soundcard if a capacitor is present in order the D.C. to be absorbed & be cancelled.

Having a schematic is definately helpful but not necessary if you know how to trace a signal through the circuit which is possible on the X-Fi cards with the DAC's that have a voltage type output which includes all the Cirrus Logic DAC's in question The X-Fi Titanium HD card has DAC's with current output & as such is not traceable with a volt ohm meter however they are very logically placed between the IV conversion opamps & buffer opamps & as such are easy to find but not so easy to get rid of but can be done with excellent results. Correction, by time the signal reaches the coupling caps it has been converted to a voltage type signal who have is tracable.

By the way I was not trying to start a flame war, Only correct the parts that I know are inaccurate.  

It appears however you are trying to start a flame war by posting the exact same post 3 times like that is going to make things any different. It doesn't so please refrain from doing so in the future.

The specs for the DAC's used in the low end X-Fi card does show a Coupling cap but not where Creative puts them. There are no coupling caps before the differential input opamps in Cirrus Logics data sheet for the DAC used on that card , only at the output. On the data sheets for the Titanium HD card DAC there are samples that don't include any coupling caps at all. In fact none of the samples shown include coupling caps at all.

Note that all of my amps are full D.C. coupled & can amplify D.C. & I use a modified X-Fi Titanium HD with the coupling caps eliminated & wire put in their place with excellent results


----------



## Nemeske88

Dear Forum!
  
 Just bought an X-fi Xtreme Fatality audio card (almost the same as Xtreme Music, but more Xram and a fancy led on the upper right corner)
  
 It has some issues. The driver is installing ok, but the main (stereo) output has some distortion. I mean I cannot use it at all with distortion this high.
 I am writing because I read before that it can be fixed by changing the caps or the OPA pn the PCB.
 Can anyone help me? Has anyone meet the same problem?
  
 Thank you for your helping in advance


----------



## germanium

nemeske88 said:


> Dear Forum!
> 
> Just bought an X-fi Xtreme Fatality audio card (almost the same as Xtreme Music, but more Xram and a fancy led on the upper right corner)
> 
> ...


 
 This is not likely an opamp or coupling cap problem. You need to go through your settings & turn off all signal processing as that is likely causing an overdrive situation. Changing caps or opamps is not something that should be done by the uninitiated here. These are multi layer boards that are easily damaged. They also have very thin traces. The mods talking about here do not fix distortion issues caused be DAC's being overdriven by signal processing. They only improve detail & soundstage of an otherwise properly functioning card that is not being overdriven by signal processing.


----------



## Nemeske88

Well, not so happy this time.
 Thank you for your answer. I will check it's software side, but I have no doubt that it is a hardware problem. I've read a recapping and opa changing procedure can be easily done by who is familiar with soldering even a bit.
  
 Will inform you about this


----------



## culain99

Well, after 5 years of service my X-FI Fatality sound card (64mb XRam version) went dead. Hanged the whole PC and after restart could not detect it, even by populating on other slots on the motherboard. Also tried on a fresh install OS and could not detect it. Now am thinking if I should try to replace a few caps (power filtering cap ?) and see if I can revive it before shelling out for a new card...? The card is stock standard (i.e. with no  mods)
  
any ideas on what component could have went bust ....  or what component I could try replacing  .... before chucking it into the bin
  
thanks.


----------



## Fizzycapola

As this comes up on google if you type Audigy mod.
 Lastly leave warning to only change the main power cap. Do it right. No long leads to act as radio antenna, short as possible. Solder it right. Research soldering and flux first. Don't cook the board. Gentle 20w-30w is fine. 60w more for professionals as doesn't leave much margin... 1s too long whole thing will be cooked to death. Warm up the joints so the solder and joints bond at same temperature. Rather than pooring solder on a cold joint expectantly. If you use ebay parts. Clean them first as they're usually filtyly and solder wont take to them. If you dont know what you're doing just put it in the whole and fix it in with solder, good chance you will actually end up making a bomb that blows up your pc. See dry joints on youtube and work it out. I think by now most that went further eventually reached issues. Only the one I replaced only the main power cap with 470uf 16v audio grade ultra low esr cap. Is only card remaining of 4 Audigy mod experiments, dont worry they were $1 each from ebay + pp. The ones that went further sounded good for years. But one day PC froze. Onboard network chip cooked. Ram cooked. PC worked again with last remaining least modded card.
 Important to say in hindsight nobody really knows what they're doing. I just make changes if things sound better I assume I did something right. But I haven't a clue really at a fully fledged electronic level of schematics and charts of whats actually happening with each change. No idea at all I remember feeling very confident at the time of doing these mods though. Kinda fearless not in the best way.
 If you spend a fortune on lots of equipment dont tell people. It only causes jealously. Plus seeing all you need is knowhow a $1 capacitor and a cigarette lighter and flux. Spending alot. After the euphoria of making the world jealous. One day you'll feel what got into you. Particularly if you end up suffering a fungal infection that requires penicillin but you can't afford to treat the illness because you spent all your money on stupid things instead now you have to die of a fungal infection.
 ( some humour intended)
 Goodbye cruel world !!!!! Here we dance around the prickly pear at five o'clock in the morning.... the horror.....the horror..... ( some humour still intended albeit now. to a very small minority of people a bit like me....... probably bit scary to everyone else now.... bye for now.....)


----------



## voemeh

Hi guys! I was trying to make simmilar mod to my XFI XtremeGamer Fatal1ty Pro. I bought some elnas and nichicons. After recaping main power cap for xifi chip (c177) I've noticed there's some short circuit on it. I removed cap, cleaned pcb but I still got "beep" sound on my measurer even on pcb's empty holes. But it shows some value on it. So i cut of power section from diode. No more beeping on c177. There was beep on diode. I removed diode, but there's short circuit on PCB and it shows some little value. I have checked all other caps on card and there are absolutely fine, no beeping.
 Question is can it be some sort of short circuit by default in this section? I haven't plugged card into PC since then. Lately card was making some crackling noise in right channel with pc volume above 50%. That's why i decided to recap, but now in dead spot.
  
 Can someone check is there *short circuit on their XFI on c177* please?
 I add example picture. I'm not expert electrician :c
http://i.imgur.com/kIsKDLO.jpg


----------



## here7423

hello,voemeh,I checked C177,F/R's resistor values,about 4 Ohm and 13 Ohm.if not,recheck the soldering place.


----------



## Vasser

> _(2) Replace the sound card's power supply capacitors with larger ones that are at least several times the original value._


 
 What is this really doing to the sound?
 More voltage to the opamp and therefore harder bass?


----------



## Shoe0077

Modscab
  
 I Like what you did with the Auzen X-Fi HD Mod, I have the same card and I have just picked up some BURSON op amps, and I am getting ready to start modding. 
  
 I am some what new to modding, but I am excited to start. With this said, I see that you are swaping out op amps but what is it you did on the back of the card under the BURSON op amp, 
  
 I see they are called Elku RAUH ? what are those ? 
  
 Also can you give me a walk though on  ad8620arz modd?  Are those the side or rear speakers or is that the headphone amp.


----------



## headsetgo

Hopefully this will get out to someone who can help as I can see this is a fairly old topic.
 Anyone who can help... please do !
  
 I have a broken Capacitor that I am looking to replace as one of the legs of the capacitor has come out of the capacitor.
 I am lacking knowledge when it comes to knowing what I need to replace it. I am assuming that it needs to be the same cap for there to be no issues at all with the card and it be exactly how it should be?

 It's for a PC sound card. A Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi Elite Pro 7.1 Channels 24-bit 192KHz PCI Interface Sound Card.
http://support.creative.com/kb/ShowArticle.aspx?sid=10571

 Here are some pictures of the capacitor (it's the large black cap)...
https://www.dropbox.com/s/hl1ds74vzob4jow/2015-04-26_12.27.46_50.jpg
https://www.dropbox.com/s/0radxwu9nc9d2zf/2015-04-26_12.28.17_50.jpg
https://www.dropbox.com/s/l14f45r3q8joj6j/2015-04-26_12.28.40_50.jpg
https://www.dropbox.com/s/9wmtqoyvgwhq2z6/2015-04-26_12.29.09_50.jpg

 If anyone could please advise me to exactly what I would need to get to replace the cap, that would be great.
  
 EDIT:
 The broken cap is a G Luxon 220 16v (it also has some other info on it... 802P(M) )

 Thank you!


----------



## Soymilk

is this thread still active? it seems like the images in the first post are no longer hosted, does anyone have them saved?
  
 my x-fi elite pro recently bit the dust, it was causing my computer to crash. upon inspection, it seems i have a few bulging caps (3 of the 4 medium sized ones that go across the top in a row, and the power filter cap), so i figured i could try re-capping + hotrodding my card.


----------



## Foxer

headsetgo said:


> Hopefully this will get out to someone who can help as I can see this is a fairly old topic.
> Anyone who can help... please do !
> 
> I have a broken Capacitor that I am looking to replace as one of the legs of the capacitor has come out of the capacitor.
> ...


 
  
 That is the main power filter CAP. You can either replace it with an identical one (220uF 16V) and of the same brand (if you can manage to find a G Luxon) OR you can go the "upgrade way" and get an ELNA Silmic II 1500uf 16or24V (you could go even bigger, with 2200uF, just be mindful of the namebrand)
  
 EDIT: actually ignore what i just said.
 I would advise anyone interested in the mod, to read through all the pages from 80 to 100 of this thread.


----------



## Foxer

@gordo999 what are your opinions on upgrading the quartz clock generator with an Ultra Precision TCXO of the same frequency??
 It is said to VASTLY improve sound clarity.


----------



## Foxer

soymilk said:


> is this thread still active? it seems like the images in the first post are no longer hosted, does anyone have them saved?
> 
> my x-fi elite pro recently bit the dust, it was causing my computer to crash. upon inspection, it seems i have a few bulging caps (3 of the 4 medium sized ones that go across the top in a row, and the power filter cap), so i figured i could try re-capping + hotrodding my card.


 
 I suggest visiting this thread http://www.head-fi.org/t/589078/almis-x-fi-mod-hotrodding-sound-blaster-x-fi-models only 6 pages


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## Jamyz

Hi,
  
 First, sorry for my english....
  
 I have an Auzentech HomeTheater.
 I have the sound like this video.

  
 I don't know for what the sound is like a sh**. I try with an other opamp, like when i buy the card. But Nothing.
 Is only the analog part as the sound like that and the cdmi and spdif works good.
 Is the filter capacitor or the chipset ??
 Chipset are cold. If is the capacitor filter with one i try to change ???
  
  
 Thank you for you're help...


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## SlimBo

hi Everybody
 i need help with my Asus Xonar DS
 i want to short some caps for better sound clarity but i don't know which one...
 i have done it whith my X-fi and the difference it's amazing
 i thank you for your help in advance 
 sorry for my english


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## SlimBo

hi Everybody
 i need help with my Asus Xonar DS & My Xi-Fi Xtreme Audio
 i want to short some caps for better sound clarity but i don't know which one...
 THX


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