# best rubycon blackgate's alternative



## ashy79

hi everyone... I googled around... decided to open a thread here.... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			








 came across several & narrowed down to these 2 brands... panasonic FJ/FM/FL & rubycon ZL/ZA/MCZ

 FL & MCZ were said to be better in a "pc motherboard capacitor article"

 while most audio related discussions involve the FJ/FM & ZL/ZA only...

 any idea? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 thx in advance....


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## fierce_freak

I like the Panasonic FM's and Elna Silmic II's, but I haven't done anything remotely serious comparison-wise.


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## ashy79

wokeh thx...

 anymore input?


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## Vladco

You could try rubycon ZL. It suppose to be a little better than FC for power supply. YMMV.
 Vlad


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## nikongod

it is totally conditional on application.

 some caps are very well suited to digital power supplies.
 some are very well suited to analog power supplies with class-a/b sytems.
 some are better suited to amps with full class A and lower PSU RR topologies.

 is a ferrari a better car than a hummer? it depends if you want to roll over or rip off your exhaust driving over a fallen twig.


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## synaesthetic

I've used Panasonic FM in quite a few applications. I cannot tell the difference between them and Blackgates. Maybe I have tin ears, but the price difference says it all for me!


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## splaz

I pretty much entirely use Panasonic FM/FC and NHG.

 Purely because they are the easiest and cheapest for me to get, other than dodgy electrolytics from local suppliers. They probably would work fine but a few of the brands have been known to vent/explode in motherboards. I know my typical uses wouldn't be anywhere near as demanding but imo better safe than sorry, plus the Panasonics have far better specs anyway.

 For any in the signal path, I am usually tempted to use Elna Silmic IIs just for the sake of it, they're pretty cheap really.

 Wouldn't have a clue how either stack up against Blackgates as I've never had the incentive to try given the cost.

 Btw, Nichicon Muse are often recomended as audio caps.


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## motherone

Here's my choices: (listed in order of preference)

 Signal Path Coupling: Nichicon Muse ES, Elna Silmic, Elna Cerafine, Elna Tonerex (very warm!), Muse FG

 Power Supply (Analog): Nichicon Muse KZ, Panasonic FM or Nichicon UHE, Elna Silmic/Cerafine, Muse FG

 Power Supply (Digital): Sanyo OS-Con, Panasonic FM, Nichicon Muse KZ

 I haven't tried the Rubycon ZL's in many applications, but they're supposedly good for both power supply and signal path applications.

 Personally, I really only use the Black Gate N and NX/Hi-Q types for signal path applications. I think the others listed above are better for PSU applications.


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## AudioCats

for signal, the Silmic is nowhere close to the BG NX. The silmic doesn't muddle the sound much, but it doesn't help anything either, might as well don't use it. (tried it in the Stax 001's input). Try some dip tantalums and see if you hate them, some tantalums can sound better than the silmic's.

 for power,UnitedChemicon PS/PSA seem to work quite well for power supply rails, but they only come in small values. The nichicon Muse works well too, of course. Both have a "colder" sound in my little dynamic amp. The muse I got are green cased, not sure what series they are.

 People keep using blackGates for a good reason.


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## luvdunhill

Nelson Pass said that the Elna silks are the best electrolytic capacitor he's heard and measured.


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## Pars

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *AudioCats* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_for signal, the Silmic is nowhere close to the BG NX. The silmic doesn't muddle the sound much, but it doesn't help anything either, might as well don't use it._

 

There isn't a cap made that is going to "help" the sound, unless you mean adding something that isn't in the original signal (iow, distortion). The best cap is no cap...


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## AudioCats

yes the best cap is no cap, but apparently we use them for a reason 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 the silmic didn't add anthing for the 0.12uf polyprops, with silmic in place the sound was still thin, as if they were not there. What a waste of $0.15.....


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## majkel

*nikongod* gave you very important remark - you must distinguish between analog decoupling/supply, digital decoupling/supply and analog coupling. 

 Panasonic FC is for the first purpose but it's nowhere as good as Sanyo OsCon SP, and especially Sanyo WG - the best "digital" 'lytic I have ever tried. Just... transparent. Oscon SP is on a bright/fun side, with accentuated impact. For specific results I recommend Nippon Chemicon KZJ - very warm, rich, tubey sound.
 For analog decoupling - it's funny but nothing has beaten Panasonic Pureism and JVC "for audio" in my experiments. I've never tried the Black Gate's but the JVC won over Elna Silmic by a slight margin and over the Cerafine by a higher margin. The former Elna was too creamy, the latter too cold and lacking timbre sometimes. It is allowable to use Jamicon's here, you'll get decent spectrum ends and dark but sweet midrange, kind of losing timbral complexity but acceptable when well paired with other parts. 
 Panasonic FC and FG - suck in both applications IMHO. Jamicon's are better and cheaper. 

 For coupling... as a DC coupling fan I say what's been written - best cap is no cap. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Whichever I tried (Wima or other MKP, KSP, etc.) it was making the sound worse.


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## stoned22

For power capacitors, I like the Nichicon UHZ , available at Mouser, it has very good specs for ESR and ripple current. Unfortunately Mouser only carries the ones rated for relatively low voltages.


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## Malefoda

As time passes by, any other alternatives to NX? Choosing coupling caps is really a burden... (330µF needed here, and tiny of course  )


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## tomb

Quote: 





luvdunhill said:


> Nelson Pass said that the Elna silks are the best electrolytic capacitor he's heard and measured.


 

 I would agree with that statement.  The Elna Silmic RFS II's are the best things I've ever used - either small (47uf) or large (1000uf).  Black Gates? Bah - good riddance to the hype and the price.


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## Malefoda

Best only for power rails caps.


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## Avro_Arrow

Elna Silmic II


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## Malefoda

Yes I meant Mr. Pass love them in supplies, and OsCons do wonder on digital... but for coupling where large capacity is required there is no clear choice. Or a Muse ES bipolar, the bypass being the real choice?


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## tomb

Quote: 





malefoda said:


> Yes I meant Mr. Pass love them in supplies, and OsCons do wonder on digital... but for coupling where large capacity is required there is no clear choice. Or a Muse ES bipolar, the bypass being the real choice?


 

 Elna Silmic II's are better than Muse ES's - and I love ES's.  I was also only referring to coupling, not power supplies.  It's hard to beat a Panasonic FM in power supplies, but they stink in coupling applications.  Elna's would be wasted in power supplies, IMHO.


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## digger945

If you google capacitor comparisons, you will find some who think that Elna capacitors are better than Blackgates, even NX Blackgates, as used in both power supply and coupling. 
   
  I recently listened to a Bottlehead Crack amp, at a local meet, that used high voltage Panasonic TS series caps for output coupling. It sounded very very good to me. I've never heard the HD650's sound better.
   
  If you look at the data sheet for the capacitor in question, you will probably notice that the power correction factor for the ESR will change, sometimes quite drastically, with frequency. The linearity of the part will depend somewhat on this factor. This coefficient of frequency is less with the Elna caps than some others.


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## slowpogo

Elna Silmics (both I and II) are good at reproducing the timbres of acoustic instruments. So things like acoustic guitar take on a very natural, 3D quality where you can hear the scrape of the pick on the strings, etc. But somehow in spite of this, they have a kind of dark gray, dampened sound. I can't describe it too well, but I don't like it. I recognize that they do some things well but if we're talking replacement for the Black Gate NX, the Silmics have nothing on those caps. I actually like the Silmic I a little better than the II - it doesn't have the thick lower midrange, which gives the II a tubey sound that many seem to like. I prefer the more natural EQ of the Silmic I.
   
  I still think it's funny that some assume the Black Gates were all hype. They were most definitely a very nice capacitor, easy to argue as the best available. Were they worth the high cost? As much as I like them, I'm not sure about that. For some people, probably not, but they certainly were not snake oil.


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## tomb

Quote: 





slowpogo said:


> Elna Silmics (both I and II) are good at reproducing the timbres of acoustic instruments. So things like acoustic guitar take on a very natural, 3D quality where you can hear the scrape of the pick on the strings, etc. But somehow in spite of this, they have a kind of dark gray, dampened sound. I can't describe it too well, but I don't like it. I recognize that they do some things well but if we're talking replacement for the Black Gate NX, the Silmics have nothing on those caps. I actually like the Silmic I a little better than the II - it doesn't have the thick lower midrange, which gives the II a tubey sound that many seem to like. I prefer the more natural EQ of the Silmic I.
> 
> I still think it's funny that some assume the Black Gates were all hype. They were most definitely a very nice capacitor, easy to argue as the best available. Were they worth the high cost? As much as I like them, I'm not sure about that. For some people, probably not, but they certainly were not snake oil.


 

 I understand what you're saying and respect your opinion on the sound - but I still disagree.  I still think the Elna's are better than BG's.  Any advantage, however slight, is overcome by both the price and the very cumbersome requirement for long break-ins (repeatedly required if unused).   As for hype, sorry - Black Gates were always priced about 10 times what they were worth.  More to the point, Jelmax's entire marketing campaign about the "super-E-caps" capacitor arrangement was _pure hype_.  It was focused solely on trying to get customers to order twice the number of super-over-priced capacitors than they normally would.
   
  I hate to be hard-hearted about the whole thing, but the market wins out.  If Black Gates truly offered performance commensurate with their price, they wouldn't have gone through multiple manufacturing suspensions over the years until they finally died out for good.  Were they decent caps?  Yeah, but the rest of it was voodoo.


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## slowpogo

Quote: 





tomb said:


> I hate to be hard-hearted about the whole thing, but the market wins out.  If Black Gates truly offered performance commensurate with their price, they wouldn't have gone through multiple manufacturing suspensions over the years until they finally died out for good.


 
   
  But do we really know the whole story of why production was suspended, and then stopped? It's easy to assume it was purely market demand but there's a whole lot else that could have factored into it. That they are being sold (and bought) on ebay for ridiculous sums would suggest that demand is still there. There are plenty of outlandishly-priced capacitors (Mundorf, etc.) out there that, while probably better than cheaper alternatives, are not better in proportion to the price difference. Yet they have been, and will remain, in production for quite some time. So I don't know that there's a simple answer to all this.


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## Avro_Arrow

I thought the reason they were axed was a dispute between Rubycon and the company that was making them.
   
  Quote: 





slowpogo said:


> But do we really know the whole story of why production was suspended, and then stopped? It's easy to assume it was purely market demand but there's a whole lot else that could have factored into it. That they are being sold (and bought) on ebay for ridiculous sums would suggest that demand is still there. There are plenty of outlandishly-priced capacitors (Mundorf, etc.) out there that, while probably better than cheaper alternatives, are not better in proportion to the price difference. Yet they have been, and will remain, in production for quite some time. So I don't know that there's a simple answer to all this.


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## tomb

Quote: 





avro_arrow said:


> I thought the reason they were axed was a dispute between Rubycon and the company that was making them.


 

 True, but money is money.  If a product has a demand and there is profit to be made, then people find a way around such things.  My point is that most of it - at least at the prices that Jelmax was demanding - was hype, period.  Under those circumstances, I think Rubycon got fed up with them.  That's conjecture on my part, but all we're offering are opinions anyway.


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## ClieOS

Never really like the BlackGate I used for coupling caps (one of the last batch of _22_uF/6.3V NX Hi-Q sold by Part Connexion). Personally I find Nichicon ES series better sounding in the same application.


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## qusp

blackgate?? meh, i totally dont know what the fuss is about, even with hundreds of hours the sound isnt right around 250-350hz,
   
  i just dont like them and would take silmic II or nichicon kz over them any day in signal, especially if the silmic are bypassed with a small pps, polypropylene, or relcap polystyrene film and foil cap. in digital power supply i'll take oscon, or nichicon solid polymer for leaded, for smd the panasonic SP/SX series special polymer caps are in another class @ 0.005ohms, kemet polytantalum smd if very small size is needed such as the newish 1206 size, al bypassed when appropriate with c0g, or ps film, bulk decoupling in power supply the nichicon, silmic II for smaller positions, then mundorf or F&T for 2200 up, or for ultrareliable bomb proof high current, the Evox/Rifa PEH169 are impossible to beat for me and if higher performance again is needed and you have the space, adding a 50-200uf unlytic polypropylene shunt to the rifas is unbelievable. blackgate do not even figure in all of that, if cheaper bulk caps with decent performance are needed the pana FC are indeed a great value.
   
  i wont go into films, there are plenty of threads on that already and at that level and application i would strive for no cap


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## AudioCats

Quote: 





tomb said:


> True, but money is money.  If a product has a demand and there is profit to be made, then people find a way around such things.  My point is that most of it - at least at the prices that Jelmax was demanding - was hype, period.  Under those circumstances, I think Rubycon got fed up with them.  That's conjecture on my part, but all we're offering are opinions anyway.


 

  BlackGate relies on too much a nitch market (pretty much tweak/mod applications), doesn't move enough volumn to justify reactivate production.
   
  I still think the NX is the best for both signal (when there is size restriction) and power rail. Too bad they are pretty much nowhere to be found nowadays.


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## slowpogo

Quote: 





audiocats said:


> BlackGate relies on too much a nitch market (pretty much tweak/mod applications), doesn't move enough volumn to justify reactivate production.


 

  
  I don't know why Black Gates were always the face of expensive boutique parts. What about something like Jensen silver foil capacitors - a 0.22uf cap costs $242. That's an extreme example, but there are plenty of product lines comparable to BG price levels, like the MultiCap RX.  Not everyone thinks they're great, but some certainly do, and these caps fairly expensive; larger values will run you $30 or more.  This is why I always balked at complaints of Black Gates being outrageously overpriced - yeah, they were a lot more than your cheapo industrial caps, but not THAT expensive, and there are plenty of analogous product lines - yet Black Gates took the brunt of the criticism, at least places like here.
   
  If you thought they were excellent - which I did - then you were willing to pay an extra $40 to make your Millett Max sound pretty damn good. Sure, I would have rather paid less, but I wasn't nearly as happy with the other caps I tried (I probably spent 3 months swapping in various combinations of caps, letting them burn in a while, and taking notes; ultimately, the BG NX's were very clearly the most satisfying to my ears) so it was worth it. I don't regret having bought about 20 BG caps over the years, whatsoever, and I lament their absence.
   
  As far as the burn-in issue, yeah, it does take quite a while for them to reach full potential, and people say with disuse they need to be re-broken-in. But as long as you simply use your amp (which, presumably, you built with the intention of using) then it's not an issue. I pretty much only listen on my Millett Max, basically daily, so I've never, ever had to deal with that and it's a non-issue to me.


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## talk2me

I just had my Wadia S7i modded (BG's by the way) to the Statement level by Great Northern Sound Company. Right out of the box, the sound is more than I could have imagined. We all have opinions, and mine says Black Gate uber alles.


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## FritzS

What is the best replacement for a *bipolar* *[size=x-small]BlackGate NX 1000 uF 25V[/size]*?
   
  Are the nichicon Muse ES 1000uF/25vdc the right? Gives better bipolar replacement caps?
  The nichicon Muse ES 1000uF/25vdc costs only about $1,45 - but for the BlackGates I pay'd about $12,50 from percyaudio.
   
http://www.hndme.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=1117&idcategory=40
http://www.percyaudio.com/


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## DingoSmuggler

Quote: 





fritzs said:


> What is the best replacement for a *bipolar* *[size=x-small]BlackGate NX 1000 uF 25V[/size]*?
> 
> Are the nichicon Muse ES 1000uF/25vdc the right? Gives better bipolar replacement caps?
> The nichicon Muse ES 1000uF/25vdc costs only about $1,45 - but for the BlackGates I pay'd about $12,50 from percyaudio.
> ...


 
  Are you sure you need a bipolar cap? What is the application?


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## FritzS

Quote: 





dingosmuggler said:


> Are you sure you need a bipolar cap? What is the application?


 
   
  Yes, I use them to protect expensive headphones from DC (offset and DC protection) instead of a DC protection circuit with an relais.
   
  In my own build WNA MKII I use *bipolar* *[size=small]BlackGate NX 1000 uF 25V[/size]* without herable differences.
  For my next projects I want to get some bipolar 1000uF caps. Later I will biuld a DC protection circiut.
   
  Some says bipolar BlackGates electrolytic caps are better in PSU too.


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## tomb

You don't need bi-polars as output caps.  There are some who think they inherently sound better, but only if you are comparing like capacitors.  If you can find a brand that sounds excellent without being bipolar, there's no disadvantage.
   
  IMHO, the Elna Silmic RFS II's are as good or better than the old BG NX's.  The only disadvantage was they tended to be huge in size, but their lower price, availability, and lack of requirement for the infamous BG break-in time makes up for their huge size.  They are readily available at DigiKey or Handmade Electronics.


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## FritzS

There are only a little DC voltage on the output (under 20 ... 100mV)
 Need Elna Silmic RFS II a low Voltage to formate the plates?
 As far as I know they are not bi-polar.
 An other way to simulate bi-polar is to use two caps in series, but one in reverse polarized.
 Downside - two  Z-parameters in addition.
  
 PS: I coming back, but my *bipolar* *BlackGate NX 1000 uF 25V* growing older


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## FritzS

> Personally, I really only use the Black Gate N and NX/Hi-Q types for signal path applications. I think the others listed above are better for PSU applications.


 
  
 Gives there an replacement for the non-polar BlackGate NX 1000µF 25V in signal path, with the same or better performance?
  


> Nelson Pass said that the Elna silks are the best electrolytic capacitor he's heard and measured.


 
  
 Gives Elna silks in a non polar 1000µF 25V version?


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## tomb

> fritzs said:
> 
> 
> > > Personally, I really only use the Black Gate N and NX/Hi-Q types for signal path applications. I think the others listed above are better for PSU applications.
> ...


 
   
 Not really.  The Nichicon Muse ES comes as close as possible.  It's fantastic for bass, but really needs a 0.1uf - 0.33uf film bypass for the higher frequencies.


  


> Quote: Originally Posted by *FritzS* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> 
> > Nelson Pass said that the Elna silks are the best electrolytic capacitor he's heard and measured.
> ...


 
  
 I definitely agree with Nelson Pass about the Elnas.  The Elna Silmic RFS II is every bit as good as the Black Gate NX in the audio signal path.  If you really must have a bipolar cap, though, use the Muse ES.


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