# Matrix M-Stage amp review: simple, cheap, and excellent.



## project86

*INTRO*

 First off I have to admit: I’m becoming a huge fan of headphone amps. In spite of having several high end options to choose from, I’ve always enjoyed the simplicity of listening directly from the headphone jack of a great sounding player. I realize that amplification is almost a necessity to make certain headphones really shine. My solution to that has simply been to use those demanding cans less frequently. My position on this was not logical and I really have no idea how I decided upon it. I think it had to do with the fact that I like to move around to different rooms and still have my music with me. If I was going to sit down and really listen properly, I’d usually opt for my full size speaker setup. Now that I’ve moved and my reference speaker system doesn’t fit in my new place, I find myself relying on headphones for serious listening, and thus am enjoying headphone amps quite a bit more. Portable use is where I draw the line, due mostly to the fact that background noise mitigates any benefit an amp may have given me. I suppose this position may change at some point as well.

 In any case, the item in question is the Matrix M-Stage headphone amplifier. The seller is Jeffrey Tam who sells under the Ebay name “Coolfungadget”. Several of his products have already been favorably reviewed around here, such as the Matrix Mini-I, the Zero, and the Aune. Mr. Tam is a Shanghai based distributer of these items rather than a manufacturer, and several other sources also sell some of the same things. The M-Stage seems to be exclusive to Mr. Tam as of this writing. One thing that separates this seller from the rest is his communication: emails answered within a day or so, in perfect English, from a very pleasant person. He is truly a pleasure to deal with; if only all overseas vendors were this good.

 The M-stage is a fairly basic headphone amp. It features 2 sets of RCA inputs on the rear, which are selectable via a switch on the front panel. It also has a line out which enables the unit to be used as a pre-amp. Aside from the input selection switch, the front panel features a single ¼” headphone jack and volume control knob. A power switch is located on the rear, just next to the IEC power cable receptacle. It really is a very simple design. The only somewhat unique feature is the pair of gain selectors on the bottom. Users can easily switch from 0, 10, 18, or 20 dB of gain, independent for each channel, with the simple flip of a few dip switches.

 The seller describes the design of the M-Stage as being a fully discrete Pure Class A design. It appears that the left and right channels share the same power supply and then things break down to a dual mono design from there, although of course they share the same PCB. It uses high quality parts such as Nichicon KG capacitors, a smooth ALPS potentiometer, a Burr/Brown OPA2134, etc. The power supply appears very robust, featuring a large toroidal transformer, and could easily justify being moved to a separate case if the designer so desired. I personally appreciate that it is all in one unit, which takes up less room on a rack, but that’s just personal preference. Because of this large power section, the M-Stage ends up being deceptively deep. From the front it appears to be your basic small (but not tiny) amp along the lines of the Headroom Desktop series. In reality the M-Stage is nearly twice as deep as that, measuring over a foot deep when you count the front knob and rear RCA jacks. 

 The price is $249.95 which includes free shipping to most locations. All prices in this review are MSRP just to keep things simple. Since some of my gear is older, and also considering our current market has $399 Triple Fi IEMs selling new for $99, listing MSRP is the only way to keep it fair. Prices change over time so some of these might be a bit off but it gets the general idea across. 


*TEST GEAR*

 I tried my best to use a variety of different equipment in this review. Sources included a Sansa Fuze 8GB ($130) played through a modified Griffin Power Dock (similar units available on Ebay for $65), a Samsung BD-P1200 ($800), a Toshiba HD-A30 ($400) with a custom Gamma2 DAC ($375 if you have it built, mine has a few minor mods), and a Marantz SA-1 ($7500 plus Audiomod upgrades for another $2200). Headphones used included Audio Technica AQ88 (Japan only but roughly $25), heavily modded JVC RX-700 ($60 plus maybe $20 for mods), Equation Audio RP21 ($99), Ultimate Ears Super Fi 3 Studio ($99), AKG K240DF (unknown price…. maybe $100?), LiveWires Trips ($350), Ultimate Ears UE-Hybrid ($800), and Sennheiser HD800 ($1400). I compared it to a Creek OBH-21 ($375), Eddie Current ECSS ($430), Graham Slee Solo (from 2004, not one of the newer editions, $1000 with PSU1 power supply), DarkVoice 337SE ($900), and a Luxman P-1u ($3000). 

 To keep things polite, I’ll simply say that I don’t believe in high end cables making a difference. With that in mind I simply used a robust 14AWG power cable (originally from a 58” Panasonic Plasma) and my usual SonicWave interconnects. I apologize if that invalidates this review for you.

*PACKAGE*

 The package took roughly 6 days to arrive at my house from the day it was shipped. There was a slight delay before that because the seller had to get me the 110V version in black. I’m not sure if he keeps a stock of certain models or if he always has to order them. Either way, like the Ebay listing says, it should arrive within 15 days or less. 

 As you'll see in the pictures, the package is relatively simple. The amp sits inside the sturdy cardboard box, and is held tight by various pieces of foam. The packing is not the best I’ve ever seen, but it certainly got the job done, as mine arrived with absolutely zero blemishes or imperfections. 

 One thing to note is that the amp doesn’t come with anything. It is simply the amp itself. There is no user manual, nor even a basic power cable. This would seem like a downside, but I actually didn’t mind at all; the amp is extremely self explanatory with very few options. As for the power cord, I believe we all have a few lying around, so why add cost by including another? If needed, one could easily purchase a basic PC power cable at a local shop for $5 or so. 


*BUILD QUALITY*

 The M-Stage is built like a tank. The case appears to be solid steel, and the thick face plate is brushed aluminum. The face matches very well with most Marantz gear. The volume knob is also made of aluminum and has a very nice feel to it. When powered on, there is a bright blue LED light that might be too bright for some people. I might take a black sharpie to mine as it does bother me sometimes. 

 Panel gaps are fairly tight, although not the tightest I’ve seen. The logo and printing on the front is an interesting font and seems to be of a high quality. The whole thing looks and feels like it would command a much higher price than what the seller is asking. It certainly does not feel out of place when lined up with several other amps ranging from $500 to $3000. 

 My most sensitive headphones seem to be my LiveWire Trips. They pick up faint buzzing and hiss on pretty much every amp I have ever used them with. On the best amps it is almost imperceptible, but it is always there when the volume is cranked to 100%. The M-Stage proved to be no different. Using the zero gain setting, I could just barely hear a very quiet hum at 100%. As I switched to the higher gains, it became slightly louder but even at a gain of 20 it was only intrusive at insane volume levels with no music playing. I wish the M-Stage was completely silent even under the most extreme circumstances, but even the $3000 Luxman can’t make that claim. Note that it never bothered me in real world listening situations. The program material would easily damage my hearing before the hum ever became loud enough to be an issue. Also note that aside from the LiveWires, the hum was only ever detectable using other sensitive IEMs at high volumes and gain settings, and never appeared when using full size cans. 

 Being a pure Class A design, I was unsure what the heat situation would be. I’m happy to report that the M-Stage runs very cool. It is actually among the coolest of any amp I have ever dealt with. After leaving it playing for an entire night, I touched it to find it merely….. not cold. This being winter, my house gets a bit chilly during the night, so normally the metal chassis would be cold to the touch. After about 12 hours of heavy playing it barely managed to warm itself up to lukewarm. On a different day I let it burn in* in my living room with the fireplace going. Even with the room warm, the M-Stage only seemed slightly warmer than the ambient temp. 

 *I like to do burn in on my new gear. I don’t believe the sound will change (until I’m shown some evidence of exactly how that could happen) but I know from experience that if an item is going to fail, I will likely do so early on. I give my gear a solid workout to make sure it can last the first week, and if it makes it that far it will usually give me years of reliable service. If not, the return is easy to handle at that stage.

*PICTURES*

 Sorry but I'm still terrible at photography and my camera is not the best either. I plan on doing something about that soon, but for now this is the best I could do. You should see the shots that I decided _not_ to post..... even worse than these!






 The package 






 The protection, doesn't look like much but worked very well






 Sealed plastic layer to prevent scratches






 Full view. Please ignore any smudges that might appear in any of these photos. Apparently finger oils show up in pictures a lot more than in real life, as does lint, dust, and scratches in the furniture.






 Front left






 Front right






 Direct front






 Side






 Rear






 Inside overhead view, note the great workmanship and massive power transformer






 Nichicon Caps






 Burr/Brown OPA2134






 Alps






 Listening with Fuze, modded Power Dock and LiveWires Trips





 Tried a cheap player that features a nice Cirrus Logic DAC. Too much noise, likely cheap power supply issue.






 You've heard of the "audiophile" Playstation 1? The Dreamcast has a pretty decent Burr/Brown DAC so I thought I'd give it a listen. It actually sounds quit nice.






 With Samsung BD-P1200. It hasn't aged well as a Blu-Ray player but it has an excellent analog section. I've been meaning to crack the case and see what it is packing but haven't had a chance.






 Perched majestically atop the Pinnacle BDC-1200, for which it served as an excellent pre-amp.






 Mint MAC1700 with superb tube based tuner. Notice how the M-Stage is NOT sitting on top? You just don't stack things on vintage wood, especially when it has vents for cooling.






 On top of the Toshiba HD-A30 transport, surrounded by a gamma1 and gamma2 custom DACs. That's Bret McKenzie noodling on the guitar, pardon the flash.






 With the gamma2 and a decent transport, the M-Stage is excellent!






 Ready for a night of listening with the RX700, RP21, SF3, Trips, and UE-Hybrids.





*MUSIC*

 I’ve been listening to quite a wide variety of music lately. I will list a few of the artists and albums that got the most play during this review just to give you a general idea of my musical preferences. There were plenty more as well so rest assured if there was a particular genre that this amp was not great at handling, I would have heard it. Most of these were redbook CD or flac files, with a few SACDs and other formats mixed in. They range from reference quality to fairly mediocre. 

 The Temper Trap – Conditions
 Frank Sinatra – Nice n Easy
 The Snake the Cross the Crown – Mander Salis
 The Ohio Players – Fire
 As Tall As Lions – You Can’t Take It With You
 Russian Circles – Enter
 Shawn Lee’s Ping Pong Orchestra – Miles of Styles
 Craig’s Brother – Lost at Sea
 Nils Petter Molvaer – Khmer
 500 Days of Summer – Original Motion Picture Soundtrack
 David Bazan – Curse Your Branches
 Sufjan Stevens – Illinois
 Ernie Watts – Unity (XCRD)
 XRCD Classical Sampler (XRCD)
 FIM Audiophile Reference IV (SACD)
 Legends of Jazz Showcase (Blu-Ray)
 Queen Rock Montreal & Live Aid (HD DVD)


*SOUND*

 Now for the most important part of this review; how does the thing sound? In a word: Excellent. It is very dynamic and full-bodied but still well balanced. It does not seem to impart any sonic signature but rather gives you an open window into the music. This is my kind of amp.

 Many amps of all price ranges seem to be glorified equalizers; they give a big bass boost, or roll off the highs a bit to tame sibilance, or pump the mids in the name of musicality. Obviously there is a market for that since many of these amps sell quite well. I’ve always found that approach to be a bit short sighted as it limits you to using only a certain model or brand or type of headphones. I’d rather not have one amp for my Grados, another amp for my Sennheisers, etc. If I felt the headphones deficient in some way I would use a quality EQ to fix that area, or simply stop using those headphones. That’s not to say that some amps don’t have their particular strong points, but if it is too unbalanced then I am not interested. 

 Rather than try to summarize everything here, I’ll try to point out specific things as I go. Hopefully that gives you a better picture of what this amp is capable of.

*COMPARISONS*

 First off I’ll state that I actually like all of these amps. I’ve owned others that have not lasted, but these are all keepers for one reason or another. Some are clearly not the best but they all have their charm. Note that I am not judging them on their feature sets but purely on sound.

 M-Stage vs Creek OBH21

 I figured this would be a good start as the price is somewhat similar. The Creek is fairly old but unless we are talking about cutting edge designs, nothing is really new in the world of amps, be they solid state or tube. The Creek is basically on the level of a well designed Cmoy. It has decent bass, an acceptable soundstage, and does well with medium impedance cans. It does not really excel in any area, and can not handle difficult headphones. 

 The M-Stage clearly outclassed the Creek in every single area. Better definition, less strident top end, more dynamics, and much larger soundstage. The M-Stage also did very well with the 600ohm AKG K240DF and the 300ohm Sennheiser HD800, while the Creek simply did not have enough juice to properly energize them. Again, the Creek sounded fine until the M-Stage was introduced as a comparison. 

 M-Stage vs Eddie Current ECSS

 I have to admit that I did not have any of my Grado cans available during the listening portion of this review. My brother is using the PS-1000 (they technically belong to him so I can’t complain), my dad is borrowing my RS-1, and I simply can’t find my SR-325. I hope they turn up. The reason I mention this is because the ECSS is well suited to Grados, although not at the expense of other cans. I hope I can update my impressions with Grados one of these days. 

 Once again, the M-Stage outclassed the competition. The ECSS has nice full bass and is fairly balanced overall. But it also has a distinct lack of soundstage width and airiness. The M-Stage is significantly more detailed, and that clarity enabled me to hear micro details that were simply glossed over by the ECSS. The AKGs and the HD800s again proved to be too difficult of a load, with the ECSS not providing near enough power to extract the dynamics that the M-Stage could. I did not prefer the ECSS no matter which of my test headphones I was using.

 Another issue is that my ECSS has a bit of hiss. Unlike the M-Stage, the ECSS hiss is loud enough to be intrusive even when using full size cans, and even at moderate levels. In fact my hiss seems loudest at medium volume, and then nearly goes away if I turn the volume up high enough. I’m not sure if I just have bad example or if this is a genuine issue with the ECSS.

 M-Stage vs Graham Slee Solo

 The solo is one of my favorite solid state amps. It has plenty of detail and is very dynamic. It was also quite a bit more expensive than the M-Stage so I didn’t think it would be a close race between them. I was wrong.

 They actually end up sounding very close to each other. The Solo seems to have a slight edge in dynamics, mostly due to the extra bass. Note that the M-Stage also has excellent bass but it is just not quite as prominent as the Solo. As much as I hate audiophile lingo, I’d have to say that the Solo has more of a warm, forward sound while the M-Stage is more detailed and transparent. M-Stage still wins in the soundstage arena although the margin of victory is very thin. The M-Stage seems particularly well mated with the HD800, in fact it performs nearly on par with the Luxman (more on that later). The Solo on the other hand is very impressive with the Ultimate Ears UE-Hybrid. It has plenty of warmth, huge bass and amazing dynamics which are exactly what the UE-Hybrid calls for, making for a visceral experience. Build quality is about equal although again I prefer the one box design of the M-Stage.

 These 2 amps are actually far more similar than they are different. Both do an excellent job of powering even my most difficult headphones. Both have a very pleasing sound signature, full of detail and plenty of drive. In the end it comes down to what type of sound you prefer, or perhaps what you might be in the mood for that day. Do you want the slightly warm and forward Solo with its extreme dynamics and big bass? Or are you in the mood for the incredibly fast, detailed and transparent M-stage with its tighter but more subdued bass performance? Both amps are clear winners in my book, but of course when considering price to performance ratio, the M-Stage is off the charts. I still feel the Solo is a good buy and would certainly recommend it for its strengths. 

 M-Stage vs DarkVoice 337SE

 I’ve never really thought about it until now but I guess I have to admit to being more of a solid state guy than a tube guy. I realize this when I think of all the wonderful tube amps that I’ve owned over the years. They are fun to tinker with (and even just to look at), and sound great for a while, but I always end up getting bored with them. The DarkVoice is the only one I’ve managed to hang on to for a while, and it also happens to have more of a solid state type of sound compared to the stereotypical “tubey” sound that some people adore. I still feel that it adds a tiny bit of midrange sweetness to the listening experience, but it does so in such a way that is fun and rarely intrusive. Overall this is one of my favorite amps of all time.

 The M-Stage once again held its own in the face of very tough competition. As amazing as the soundstage and imaging are on the 337SE, the M-Stage doesn’t fall far behind. It is only the depth of soundstage that is slightly inferior to the 337SE. Oddly enough the effect is that the M-Stage feels a bit more “holographic” due to the fact that it draws attention to the width of the soundstage. It may sound like I am giving the 337SE the edge here but I actually prefer the M-Stage with certain music and headphones. It seems to give a more focused, determined feel to the music, whereas the 337SE is better described as beautiful or ethereal. After a lot of careful back and forth listening (and even more careful level matching, both between the 2 amps as well as between the individual channels on the 337SE) I finally conclude that both amps are legitimate in their own unique ways of presenting things. 

 Bass is about equal between them, as are the sparkly highs. The mids feel just a bit warmer and more surreal on the DarkVoice which can be very addicting. On the other hand, with certain headphones the combination of ridiculously large soundstage and the slight bloom to the mids just take me right out of the experience. It really does seem to vary with my mood, and once again it is never as noticeable until you start doing head to head tests. If I had to choose just one amp to live with I would be very happy with either of these, but if I could have only the 2 of them that would be even better. They really contrast well with each other. Of course the M-stage is an insane value but the 337SE is no slouch either. You could easily re-badge it and insert it into the lineup of any number of well known Hi-Fi brands such as Conrad Johnson, Manley, Mark Levinson, Cary, etc, and people would swear it belonged there at 2, 3, 4 times the price or more. 

 M-Stage vs Luxman P-1u

 This is a very odd comparison as the Luxman is over 10 times the price of the M-stage, but why not have some fun with it? As expected, the Luxman wins this comparison in pretty much every category there is. In defense of the little M-Stage, it truly puts up a good fight and the differences end up coming down to those last few bits of high end realism that are easily missed upon casual listening. It’s not like switching from a Sennheiser HD201 to an HD 600, but rather more like starting at the HD600 and then upgrading to the HD800. Both are great but the more expensive model is just in a higher league. 

 The Luxman is nearly silent. It is the quietest amp I have ever heard, with background noise or hiss being only faintly audible at 100% volume with no music playing. As mentioned previously, the M-Stage is very quiet overall but subjectively noisy in comparison. 

 There are no glaring shortcomings obvious on the M-Stage compared to the Luxman. It is more a case of being outperformed in every area by a small but significant margin. With lower end or mid level headphones they sound basically identical. Once into the high end category (which I define as the UE-Hybrids, the Trips, and the HD800s for this comparison) the differences become more clear. It’s hard to describe, but the Luxman sounds both more delicate yet more powerful. Super musical and engaging, yet not colored in any way. The channel separation is the best I have ever heard. It also seems to have an enormous soundstage while somehow avoiding the slightly unreal feel that the DarkVoice occasionally suffers from. The M-Stage also trails behind in overall resolution and specifically instrument separation. While the M-Stage let me quite clearly pick out separate strings, the Luxman did the same while putting even more space between them. 

 Overall the M-Stage does everything the Luxman does, just not as well. If the Luxman is graded with an A+ in every category, the M-Stage gets around a B-. The exception is with the HD800s. The M-Stage is very close to being equal to the Luxman when using the HD800s, lacking just a tiny bit of control in the lower register as well as having slightly inferior attack and decay, again mostly noticeable on strings. To come so close with such a low price is truly remarkable and if I hadn’t heard it myself I probably wouldn’t believe it.

*HEADPHONES*

 Audio Technica AQ88
 These are my wife’s workout headphones that I also use sometimes. They sound decent, like a toned down version of a Koss KSC75. They have pretty nice detailed highs that aren’t fatiguing. The bass and lower midrange is extremely recessed. They are far more comfortable to my wife and me than the Koss clip-ons which is why we use them.

 Some people claim amazing improvements to nearly any headphone when properly amped. I don’t believe that to be true and the AQ88s back me up on that. The M-Stage is unable to extract any further performance from these little guys.

 JVC RX-700
 These were decent cans in stock form at MSRP. They were even better at the reduced prices for which they were widely available. But when modified they really take off. Mine have the felt ring removed and hole-punched, lots of Dynamat Extreme applied, Poly-fil stuffing inserted, foam earpad spacing applied, and even a bit of Blu-Tack and rubber shelf liner damping used for good measure. I’ve messed around with the mods until I thought they were just right for me.

 Surprisingly these cheap JVCs are excellent sounding. They remind me of many of my favorite classic Sennheisers (specifically the classic HD540) but with a closed design, so obviously much smaller soundstage. The bass is punchy and goes fairly deep but no longer overpowers the rest of the spectrum. Without proper power the back them up the soundstage collapses even further and the balance is out of whack. A good amp is a must to extract their full potential.

 The M-Stage does a great job with these. Before the mods the bass was out of control, and with the Creek amp it still seems a bit flabby. Once you step up to the ECSS and above things settle in and become just right. The Solo actually makes the bass slightly more full but keeps it nice and controlled so it is not an issue. The M-Stage does an excellent job of extracting what little soundstage is possible from these cans. It drives them with authority and makes them perform in a much higher league than their modest price would suggest. They still don’t hit the lowest lows or the highest highs, and they still have a few other weaknesses, but overall I’m very pleased with them.

 Ultimate Ears Super Fi 3 Studio
 A classic design and an old favorite of mine. They don’t really do anything particularly great but are good all around performers. I think the key to why I like them is their inoffensive sound. Many newer sub $100 in ear monitors do various things quite a bit better than these do, but they usually also involve some sort of glaring weakness which ruins the experience for me. Examples include deeper bass at the expense of mid-bass smear, or crisper highs with extra sibilance. The SF3s are very forgiving. When they can’t do something well, they just play that frequency quieter so the listener doesn’t notice. Their strongest feature is in the ever important mid range section, and while some newer contenders do improve on these, I still enjoy them for what they are. 

 The M-Stage helps improve the SF3 in exactly the areas where they need help the most. They still never reach subterranean bass levels like some of my more expensive IEMs, but they definitely dig deeper with a good amp like this. If I didn’t know better I’d think I had accidentally grabbed their bigger sibling, the dual driver Super Fi 5 Pro. It is not just bass quantity that shows an improvement but texture and clarity as well. Nils Petter Molvaer’s eclectic album Khmer features some huge bass, of both the natural and the synthesized variety. Listening unamped basically deprives you of 75% of it; like a layer of wool blankets covering an actual bass drum. Something is there, but it isn’t pleasant. Plug the M-Stage into the audio chain and things start looking up. The wool layers are removed and the sound shines through as it should. High frequencies also gain some much needed energy as they are no longer drowned out by the mids. The overall result is quite pleasing. I’m not saying that these turn into reference level IEMs but it is not until you switch to a high end unit that you start to notice what you were missing, even after the improvement. Objectively the bass is still a little lean and there is room for improvement with regards to imaging and instrument separation.

 Equation Audio RP-21
 These were a huge flavor of the month some time ago. I tried them then, enjoyed them, then sold them and moved on. Of all the types of headphones in existence, the sealed back variety is probably my least favorite design in general. I own some very expensive models from Sony and Audio Technica that seem able to overcome the inherent limitations of the sealed design, but there aren’t a lot of modestly priced models out there that I enjoy. Recently a need for a sealed design presented itself, and the circumstances were such that I didn’t feel comfortable using one of my more expensive models for fear of damage. So I decided to pick up the RP-21s again and see if they were good enough.

 These headphones are much better even than I remember them being. They are easily driven through a lower power source like a DAP or a soundcard, but with a proper amp (or even an integrated receiver) they scale fairly well. I actually think I might like these better than my Beyerdynamic DT990. 

 I find the M-Stage to help bring out the highs a bit which is a welcome improvement to one of the only weak points the Equations have. Highs do stay smooth and detailed without coming across as harsh, and the overall sound is more balanced. The bass remains excellent without bleeding into the lower midrange spectrum. Using the M-Stage, the dynamic contrast is on par with some of the best headphones I have. Listening to classical music is a joy on this setup. They do lack a bit of airiness but that’s the price paid for isolation. 

 For their small price, the M-Stage and the Equations deliver massive amounts of musical enjoyment. Pair them with any decent source and you have a budget setup to be reckoned with.

 AKG K240DF
 These are some of my old favorites from back in the day. I’ve owned several others from the K240 series but these have been my favorites. If you are not familiar, these are 600ohm headphones so you absolutely must have enough power to drive them. Plugging them into the average AVR or integrated will result in decent enough (fairly dull) sound. Switch to a high quality amp and they are transformed into a completely different headphone, and are better in every single way.

 The M-Stage, with its easily adjustable gain, is just what the doctor ordered for these difficult AKGs. I spent most of my time listening with the 18dB setting engaged. The 10dB setting would actually work well enough 90% of the time, and the 20dB setting would only come in to play on a few very quiet recordings. I am glad that the options exist and that they are so easily switched. 

 I haven’t heard a lot of good reports on these AKGs and I’m not quite sure why. To me these are near reference quality. They have an excellent flat frequency response, a wide open yet precise soundstage, and amazing transient clarity. The bass is a tiny bit reserved but very tight and accurate, in the vain of the Etymotic ER4S. They really are highly underrated. I suspect the reason for this is that many amps are not up to the task of extracting their full potential, so perhaps people have not heard these perform at their best. As I mentioned before, the Creek and Eddie Current amps just didn’t measure up with these. The M-Stage is the only low priced amp I have that can do the job, the other candidates approaching or surpassing the $1,000 mark. I’m not saying there aren’t other budget amps capable of driving these but I have not had the pleasure of hearing one. 

 As with the Equations, the M-Stage/AKG combination performs astonishingly well at a reasonable price. I understand there is a newer release of these dubbed the MKII edition and assuming nothing has changed significantly I can highly recommend them. Just be aware that unlike the Equations, you will not be able to take them on the go without employing an amp. And even then it had better be a very good amp or you will not get the full experience. 

 LiveWires Trips
 Some of you may have read my previous review on these. If not the link is in my signature and I encourage you to check it out. I was, and still am, of the opinion that the Trips are some of the finest custom in ear monitors available at any price. The best part is that the price is significantly lower than that of competing customs. Why more people don’t own these is beyond me but I’m certainly glad I do. 

 I mentioned in my Trips review that they performed so well straight out of my Sansa Fuze that not much was gained by adding an amp. I have to explain that statement a bit now and eat a bit of my hat. At the time I was using a borrowed iMod paired with a Ray Samuels SR-71 amp and indeed I did not find that combo to beat the Fuze. I am not all that familiar with the iMod sound so I also tried the SR-71 with the Fuze via the stock Griffin Power Dock, also with no improvement. This was enough to convince me that the Trips do not benefit much from amping. Since then I have discovered that the Griffin Power Dock, in stock form, is a significant bottleneck. I then modified mine bypassing things like the cheap capacitors and SMD resistors and adding some high end capacitors of my own. Through this setup I can tell that A) the stock Power Dock was holding me back, and B) I’m not the biggest fan of the RSA SR-71. I was wrong and I apologize for that. On the other hand, the Fuze still does an amazing job for what it is.

 The Trips sound exactly like the Westone ES3X for anyone who has heard those. They are extremely clear and neutral but still full bodied and fun. If they have one area where they deviate from a ruler flat response, it would be the mid range section, which has just the slightest bit of extra energy. There is no smearing into the higher or lower registers so it maintains great clarity while adding a bit of fun to the sound. For me they are a perfect compromise between clinical and musical.

 If the Trips have a weakness, it is that they are extremely revealing of the source. They do not help bad recordings sound better and they will only be as good as the other components in the audio chain. The area where this manifests itself most often is in the highs; they become somewhat harsh and sibilant at higher volume levels unless you use good amplification. 

 Using the M-Stage, the Trips perform exceedingly well. Those highs are completely free of sibilance but are still very extended and sparkly. The imaging is spot on; it’s hard to believe something deep inside your ear canal can create such a realistic representation of instrument placement. The best part is that the M-Stage does not add to the already powerful mids. I’ve found that the DarkVoice (and likely most other tube amps) add just a touch too much coloration there for my tastes. Bass with the M-Stage is authoritative, deep, and very clear. An example is on the track Tricotism from the excellent XRCD release of Ernie Watts’ album Unity. Roughly 20 seconds into the song there is an amazing section where Eddie Gomez on acoustic bass and Steve Swallow on electric bass both solo and play off each other for a while. While this section (and indeed the whole album) sounds good enough on the Equations, and excellent on the UE-Hybrids and HD800s, I think the Trips nail it better than any of them. They really carve out a space between each note and allow the listener to somehow completely focus on both instruments at the same time. The M-Stage matches with the Trips better than all the others save for the Luxman, which as usual is similar yet better.

 Ultimate Ears UE-Hybrid
 These are just fun sounding customs. The dynamic driver for the low end just plain does things differently than the balanced armature(s) that are usually employed in customs. Bass is amazingly full and almost overwhelming at times. It is not as fast or refined as the Trips or the HD800 but it mostly makes up for that with brute force. It’s like having a huge smiley face EQ built in to every song.

 These are fairly demanding IEMs in that they sound reasonable but unremarkable when powered by a lesser amp or straight from a portable. Plug them in to something with some juice though and you are rewarded with earth shattering bass, adequate mids and fairly pleasing upper frequencies. The bass gains some control, especially on the top end near the crossover point, which goes a long way towards making these more suitable for all around use instead of just basshead music. 

 The M-Stage does a great job with these but I have to say the Solo is the star of this particular show. Even the Luxman has a hard time competing with the great sound that the Solo puts out. Think of the biggest, baddest speakers you have ever heard (and enjoyed) at very high volume levels. That is what the Solo/UE-Hybrid combination sounds like. The M-Stage though does a very good job at keeping the bass tight and not letting the rest get buried.

 Sennheiser HD800 
 What can I say about these that has not already been said? Soundstage as big as any headphone I own, lush, vivid mids, and realism rivaled only by electrostatic setups. 
 I concede that they walk the fine between being exceptionally detailed and just plain being bright. Everyone’s ears are different and for me these get more use than all the other top dynamic cans I own.

 The M-Stage is at its best with the HD800. Extremely natural, very detailed but still smooth and refined. The Solo, while making the bass a bit more full, does so at the expense of midbass clarity. The DarkVoice, while otherwise exceptional, seems to bring out a bit too much of that contentious top end sizzle. The Creek and the Eddie Current just don’t drive them hard enough; they sound decent enough but you might as well be listening to an HD600 because the detail just isn’t there. The M-Stage actually sounds just about identical with the Luxman; both are dynamic, tonally neutral, very fast, and exceedingly detailed. Both seem to have the top end under control (at least to my ears) to the point where they are not harsh but still retain all the sparkle and clarity that I appreciate. I struggle a bit to believe that a $250 amp could perform as well as one costing over 10 times that price. Despite my doubts, the only difference I can find was the previously mentioned background noise. I wouldn’t refer to it as a “blacker background” though; we are talking about deliberately cranking the volume all the way up in a deliberate search for hiss, something that would never present itself during normal use. 

*PRE-AMP*

 Since the unit has 2 inputs and an output, it might come in handy for someone wanting to build a high quality minimalist loudspeaker based setup. I gathered a few components I had laying around and assembled a decent system comprised of a Sony SCD-CD595 SACD player, a McIntosh MAC1700 hybrid integrated (just using the tube tuner for FM jazz stations), the M-Stage, a Teac A-L700P Tripath based amp, and a pair of Pinnacle BDC 1200 speakers. I don’t have another small pre-amp to swap in and compare, but from what I can tell the M-Stage is a highly competent pre. And why wouldn’t it be? Just like when used with headphones, the M-Stage seemed very detailed and transparent. I’ve heard the Pinnacles become bright when paired with a fairly cheap AVR, but in this setup they were perfect. I can’t say if that was because of the M-Stage or the excellent Tripath power. It was very convenient to be able to switch between SACD and FM. I wish I had time to swap more things in and out, but I wanted to at least try it out to see if there were any issues for some reason. I liked this setup so much that I kept it for about a week longer than my wife wanted me to…. It almost got me in trouble. 


*CONCLUSION*

 The Matrix M-Stage is a staggering value at $250 shipped. It looks, feels, and certainly sounds like a much higher priced unit. I cannot think of anything that competes at this price point. Of course I don’t claim to be familiar with all products in existence so there could very well be other options that sound as good, but I am not aware of them. One thing I am aware of is the fact that in recent years these audio companies from Asia are giving us more and more value for our money. I speculate that they pay less for labor and expect much smaller margins in order to get the prices so low. Whatever they are doing it is working. 

 At this level of audio quality, the headphone amp becomes less important than other items in the audio chain. Whether using the Graham Slee Solo, The Matrix M-Stage, or the DarkVoice 337SE, differences in CD players or external DACs become far more of an issue. I had previously thought that one had to approach $1000+ before achieving that level of transparency from a headphone amp (or else one had to build their own which is always an excellent value and a fun project). The Matrix M-Stage, for me, is a game changing product. Much like the way my LiveWires Trips perform on the level of competitors costing over $1k, and my custom Gamma2 DAC performs on the level of other DACs costing several thousand dollars, so too does the M-Stage elevate itself among its peers. 

 Technology marches on. My old Audio Alchemy DAC that cost a fair sum and was high end in its day is now routinely outperformed by numerous budget DACs costing a fraction of the price. I paid nearly $7,000 for a 42” Fujitsu plasma display back in 2002. One can now find a Panasonic 42” plasma which is far superior in every way for well under $1,000. And some of the best values in the audio world are now coming from relatively small companies such as Head Direct, Oppo, SoundMagic, DarkVoice, etc. 

 All I can say is that I highly recommend the Matrix M-Stage. The seller is excellent to deal with and the product is unbelievably good. I don’t just mean good for the price either; just good period. I would have been pleased with its performance at 3-4 times the price. For me, the fact that it is so cheap transforms it from a great option to a must buy. If you saw a Graham Slee Solo (any iteration) or a DarkVoice 337SE selling used for $250 shipped, you would likely jump at the chance to buy it. If they were selling new for that price, there would be a huge line of Head-Fiers trying to secure their spot to make a purchase. The Matrix Audio M-Stage is very much in the same league as those, and is easily available from an excellent seller. If you are just not into details, then the M-Stage is probably not for you. But even if you are a die hard tube lover, this might be the perfect way to explore the other side of the fence without a big monetary commitment. 






*TWIST ENDING?*

 I’ve deliberately steered clear of mentioning this until now, but I feel my review would be incomplete without it. The Matrix Audio M-Stage appears to be a clone of the Lehmann Black Cube Linear. Maybe clone is too strong of a word; perhaps I should say it appears to be highly inspired by the BCL. Look at my pictures above, and the pictures of the M-Stage on the Ebay store. Now go find the Lehmann Linear website and look at those pictures. They appear very similar.

 I did not know about this fact until after the unit was already on its way to me. The seller eventually mentioned that it is “inspired by” the Linear, and has since updated the Ebay listing to mention that they sound the same. I honestly had never heard of the Lehmann Linear so I deliberately stayed away from reading about it so I could be more objective. I’m writing this last part after finishing my main review. I’ve now looked up reviews of the Linear and have found it described as sounding exactly like what I find the M-Stage to sound like. The major difference is that the M-Stage has only 1 headphone jack on front, but adds 2 inputs in the rear where the Linear has just 1. There are a few differences for the internal components too. The M-Stage uses Nichicon KG Gold Tune 4700uf 50v caps while the Linear uses Vishay 4700uf 40v caps. Other than that they both appear to use nearly identical componentry. This would explain why the M-Stage performs so well, especially with the HD800. I have read that Sennheiser used the Linear during development of the HD800, and there are plenty of pictures from events where the Linear and HD800 are paired together at a Sennheiser booth. The M-Stage seems to capture that same magic (or synergy if that term means anything to you). This confirms to me that the M-Stage is very well done.

 There has been a supposed copy of the Lehman Linear in the past. It was called the Yulong HEF188. From what little I can find it did not sound at all like the genuine Linear and looking at internal pictures I can see why. It appears that they used much cheaper components and simplified or eliminated many areas of the design. In the case of the M-Stage it appears that everything is at least of equal if not higher quality than the original. 

 Whether or not this is an issue is totally up to you. For some, this may be the last bit of info needed to convince them to make a purchase. Who wouldn’t want to buy a product that sells new from $800 to $1200 (prices vary quite a bit for some reason) for just $250? For others it will be unsavory and they will not want to support that sort of thing. Indeed the ethics of the situation are a bit blurry and each person has to decide for themselves. The Lehman Linear is at least a 5 year old design (which again doesn’t mean it is inferior in any way), and the places I find selling it online seem to be either special order only or out of stock. I’m not sure if it is actively being made anymore, although I know the version featuring USB is still popular as is its newer little brother the Rhinelander. Clones, copies, re-badges, and products heavily inspired by others are common place in the audio world. The choice is up to you.

 This is a simple amp. There is no crossfeed, no built in DAC or USB input, no separate level adjustments for each channel, and only a single headphone jack. The simplicity may well disqualify it for certain applications. But taken from a price to performance ratio standpoint, I think it is without equal.

 I hope this has been a helpful review. I tried to be more brief than my LiveWires review but apparently once I start talking/typing it’s hard for me to stop! So I apologize about that. I also apologize again for my terrible pictures. I promise to purchase a new camera soon (likely a Nikon D-SLR) and really invest the time to learn to use it. I’ll try my best to stick around and answer any questions that people have. Thanks for reading this!


----------



## asmagus

Great review.


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## Brandon7s

Agreed, great review. You said you have a pair of DT990s? I'd be curious about your opinion of this amp paired with them, if you indeed do have them. I'm looking to get an amp for mine, and while I was planning on going the tube route, this looks pretty attractive too.


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## jcoops16

Really like your review, thanks.


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## feifan

Excellent review! One of the best I've read on Head-Fi. Thorough, thoughtful, fair, objective, coherent. I really like the way you provide enough details to support or explain observations. I especially like your writing style. Clear, careful, honest. I also like the wide range of gear that you bring into the mix.

 Perhaps the toughest hurdle in any review is to get beyond the cost/prestige lens that automatically assigns value to equipment based on pricetag and reputation. I don't see any of that bias here. This objectivity, alone, makes this review remarkable.

 Well done. And thanks.


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## vkvedam

Excellent write up! Thanks for all the information.


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## Bloodoath

Seems from the ruff finish its build like a Russian Tank.


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## Trapper32

Great review in an easy to read style. Well done!


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## sunneebear

I know there are those who look down on a clone but in this economy....Go! China! IF I didn't just buy a LD MK VII+, I would jump on this right away. I bought the Matrix Mini-i from Jeffrey Tan (coolfungadget) a while back and I can still say that it is best piece of audio gear I have.


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## radicalrev

excellent...now I gotta consider this as a potential purchase...


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## project86

Thanks for the comments everyone, I appreciate it. Writing a review is hard work so it's nice to hear that my work is helpful and/or enjoyable. 

 As for the question about the Beyerdynamic DT990s: I do own a pair, and I have used them a bit with the M-Stage. It seemed to do a very good job although I didn't critically compare different amps. Note that my 990s are the 600ohm version, which is very different from the other 2 versions. But in my case, I find the M-Stage to give them excellent bass authority, smooth clear mids, and fairly extended but still relatively relaxed highs. Excellent dynamics. I guess you could say that they retain their characteristic sound signature, which is what I usually want an amp to do. You definately don't want an amp that smooths or recesses the treble energy with the 600ohm DT990s.

 Hope that helps.


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## Brandon7s

Thank you for your response to my DT990 question, project86. That does indeed help me make a decision. I was going to buy the LDMKIII amp, but I think I'm actually going to order this tonight.


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## MomijiTMO

I think clone is a fair call. Most of the clones have really skimped on parts whereas this one doesn't appear to have done that.

 EDIT: LMAO, from an ebay listing - "Sounds just like the Lehmann Linear"...... Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm I wonder why..... xD


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## Stein

Excellent review, that amp is pretty beautiful, too.
 Now to wait and see if anyone has heard this thing with some k701's...


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## sunneebear

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Stein* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Excellent review, that amp is pretty beautiful, too.
 Now to wait and see if anyone has heard this thing with some k701's..._

 

Is it safe to assume that it's almost the same as the LBC + 701?


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## MomijiTMO

I would say so. It won't be better....


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## Stein

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MomijiTMO* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I would say so. It won't be better...._

 

And is that a good match for them?


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## project86

Unfortunately I haven't had time to try it with my K702s. I've read that the Lehmann is an excellent match though so it should be the same with the M-Stage.


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## sunneebear

The LBC and 701 have been out for a long time. There must be plenty of reviews on the net and this forum. It may give you an idea if the M-Stage is a match for you.


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## jesse1919

Thanks for the good review. I'm ordering one. I'll have to wait a few weeks but that's the penance the audio gods have handed down for listening to my HD600s directly from my computer sound card.


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## Brandon7s

I ordered mine last night, and they have a new batch being produced right now; I was told they would be ready to ship between the 15th and 18th of March. Just in time for my birthday.


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## jcoops16

Damn you damn you
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I had made up my mind what amp I was going to get next, Sheer Audio HA-006+ dynalo. Then this comes along.

 I prefer the look of the sheer and by looking at the photos I think it might have the better build quality than the matrix but the matrix is cheaper.
 If the matrix does sound like a linear then it should be a step up from the dynalo,
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I have no way of listen to them first and if I get both I am afraid of getting stung for duties on both items, which I would loath.


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## project86

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jcoops16* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Damn you damn you
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I had made up my mind what amp I was going to get next, Sheer Audio HA-006+ dynalo. Then this comes along.

 I prefer the look of the sheer and by looking at the photos I think it might have the better build quality than the matrix but the matrix is cheaper.
 If the matrix does sound like a linear then it should be a step up from the dynalo,
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I have no way of listen to them first and if I get both I am afraid of getting stung for duties on both items, which I would loath._

 


 Sorry!

 I looked up the Sheer and it looks pretty nice, I'm not sure if the build quality is better though. My pics seem to accentuate every piece of dust and such, but the M-Stage really is quite well made. I'm a fan of pretty much all Gilmore designs and I'd have to have a dynalo sitting hee to compare them, but my initial impression is that the M-Stage would be a higher class.

 Another issue that I completely forgot (thanks for bringing it up): I did not have to pay any duties or anything, but of course that may not always be the case. The seller marked the value as $70 so if I was charged something it would have been for that amount, though again I'm not familiar with the percentages. 

 I'm sure you would likely be happy with either amp so don't overthink it, just pick one and be happy!


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## sunneebear

I have never been taxed for anything coming into the US. I've had items ordered for clients in the thousands USD.


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## jcoops16

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sunneebear* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have never been taxed for anything coming into the US. I've had items ordered for clients in the thousands USD._

 

Yeah from reading these boards it looks pretty painless importing stuff into the US, not so in the UK, unless the seller basically lies on the customs slip you will get (_insert expletive here_)


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## gav007

Can you provide the dimension of this amp it looks quite long


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## uhcmos1

clone laiman？


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## Rotomoto

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gav007* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Can you provide the dimension of this amp it looks quite long_

 

280 x 110 x 42mm. Probably doesn't include the protruding volume knob.


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## project86

Correct. I'll measure the entire thing, including volume knob and RCA jacks, and get back to you. It's roughly as deep as most of my transports/players though.


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## gav007

BTW thanks for the review, I might order one once all my stuff gets here


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## Rotomoto

Has anyone else heard this amp yet? Not to diminish the OP's excellent review, but one man's opinion is but...one man's opinion


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## project86

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Rotomoto* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Has anyone else heard this amp yet? Not to diminish the OP's excellent review, but one man's opinion is but...one man's opinion
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 


 Very true, and I'm eager to have some other folks try it out. I'm pretty sure I'm not crazy due to the many opinions of the real Lehmann Linear overwhelmingly agreeing with my impressions of this unit. But still, more perspectives are always better, and indeed there were even a few people who didn't care for the Linear for one reason or another.

 Switching topics:
 I finally remembered to measure the thing from front of volume knob to rear of RCA jacks. It is just a hair less than 11.5 inches deep, or about 292mm for my metric friends.

 I briefly used it with my AKG K702 yesterday. I can tell it continues to perform on the level of the Graham Slee and the DarkVoice, but more than that I can't say without much more listening time.


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## Sganzerla

Please let us know about bass and highs with K702...


----------



## gav007

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *project86* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Very true, and I'm eager to have some other folks try it out. I'm pretty sure I'm not crazy due to the many opinions of the real Lehmann Linear overwhelmingly agreeing with my impressions of this unit. But still, more perspectives are always better, and indeed there were even a few people who didn't care for the Linear for one reason or another.

 Switching topics:
 I finally remembered to measure the thing from front of volume knob to rear of RCA jacks. It is just a hair less than 11.5 inches deep, or about 292mm for my metric friends.

 I briefly used it with my AKG K702 yesterday. I can tell it continues to perform on the level of the Graham Slee and the DarkVoice, but more than that I can't say without much more listening time._

 

Hey Project86, thanks for measuring the amp for me I appreciate it. I can't wait until I pair it to use with the HD600


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## Brandon7s

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sganzerla* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Please let us know about bass and highs with K702... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

 Please do! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 - I just got my AKG K701s in earlier today, and my Matrix is due to arrive by the end of the month. I'm _really_ looking forward these together. 

 It's gotta be better than the K701s out of my EMU1820 headphone jack.


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## Mingo

Well, I want a Matrix, too.
 As I am new to buying via eBay and PayPal, I have one question:
 What do I write when I want my PayPal money to go to Jeffrey Tam? I have no clue whatsoever and feel a bit uneducated.
 Thank you for your help. I hope to improve eventually.


----------



## Brandon7s

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Mingo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, I want a Matrix, too.
 As I am new to buying via eBay and PayPal, I have one question:
 What do I write when I want my PayPal money to go to Jeffrey Tam? I have no clue whatsoever and feel a bit uneducated.
 Thank you for your help. I hope to improve eventually._

 

 When you order online by the user coolfungadet, he IS Jeffery Tam. At least, I'm fairly certain that is the case.


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## Mingo

Yes, but do I put in his name, his nickname or email or maybe something else?


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## dcpoor

After purchasing it off ebay, there will be a link to pay that eventually asks you to login to paypal. It will have his email/payment info and amount already entered. All you have to do then is double check the amount, the payment method, and hit the confirm payment button.


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## sunneebear

If you are a virgin ebayer, start small to get acquainted with the format. Order something that cost a dollar or two. Be aware that to save on listing fees, some sellers sell items for very low prices like 99 cents but the shipping will cost $75. It is common to see audio gear from China like a power amp that list Buy It Now for $65 and the shipping is $249.

 Sorry for your wallet


----------



## project86

Good advice about Ebay, I think it's all been explained well enough, PM me if you have any other questions though and I'd be glad to help.

 Sorry I have not had much of a chance to do in depth listening with K702. From what I've heard though the M-Stage is very neutral with them. That could be a good thing or bad thing depending on how you feel about the K701/702 sound. Some people find them to have glaring flaws that must be "cleaned up" by an amp that unnaturally pushes huge bass or some other aspect. I find that the M-Stage has plenty of power for that authoritative sound, but does not color them to sound like some other headphones. They still retain their oroginal character. 

 Hope that helps a bit.


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## XLR1

Found answer. Delete post.


----------



## Brandon7s

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *project86* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 Sorry I have not had much of a chance to do in depth listening with K702. From what I've heard though the M-Stage is very neutral with them. That could be a good thing or bad thing depending on how you feel about the K701/702 sound. Some people find them to have glaring flaws that must be "cleaned up" by an amp that unnaturally pushes huge bass or some other aspect. I find that the M-Stage has plenty of power for that authoritative sound, but does not color them to sound like some other headphones. They still retain their oroginal character. 

 Hope that helps a bit._

 

 That's exactly what I'm looking for in an amp, honestly. I couldn't ask for anything more than that. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 This batch of M-Stage amps are supposed to start out shipping between the 15th and the 18th; so any day now mine should be shipping. Once I get it, I'll give my oh-so-amateur opinion.


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## MadMan007

Re heat: it looks like this unit doesn't use the chassis for a heatsink, that would explain why the outside of the unit doesn't get hot 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 versus say Audio-gd gear that often uses the chassis for a heatsink or other stuff that has exposed heatsinks. If you feel like it, could you try running it for a while then touching the small vertical heatsinks inside it?


----------



## coolfungadget

10 pcs of 110V arrived. Another 10 pcs of 220V units will arrive early next week.

 m-stage is back in stock!


----------



## sunneebear

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MadMan007* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Re heat: it looks like this unit doesn't use the chassis for a heatsink, that would explain why the outside of the unit doesn't get hot 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 versus say Audio-gd gear that often uses the chassis for a heatsink or other stuff that has exposed heatsinks. If you feel like it, could you try running it for a while then touching the small vertical heatsinks inside it?_

 

That just means it doesn't develop enough heat to require a larger heat sink or a chassis heat sink.

 coolfungadget:
  Quote:


 10 pcs of 110V arrived. Another 10 pcs of 220V units will arrive early next week.
 m-stage is back in stock! 
 

Another fine product you've brought to this market Jeffrey.


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## MadMan007

Or it could mean that the small heatsinks are just barely enough to cool the parts. In the Zero amp I once had the small heatsinks got quite warm, it's not necessarily bad but it doesn't mean it was 'cool running' either. In any case 'the chassis is cool' is meaningless when there is nothing heatsinked to the chassis


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## project86

I see your point. I doubt that is the case, as I suspect the metal chassis (which is only about an inch away from the heatshinks) would become hotter than it does. But I can certainly check when I get a moment.


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## sunneebear

A hot heat sink would easily transfer the heat fully enclosed chassis from the buildup. I don't see vents or ports in the pictures so I really doubt this amp generates much heat.


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## MadMan007

I'm not even saying it *is* hot-running just that touching the chassis when there's nothing heatsinked to it doesn't tell you much, even without vents...air is an insulator so anything that feels hot on the outside without chassis heatsinking is generating a lot of heat. It's not worth getting in to an argument over lol, just something I thought of when reading his review.


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## sunneebear

NO argument at all. 

 Electronic parts (SS & tube) can stand high amount of heat. So a hot amp doesn't really mean much, just preference of the designer. As long as it is within temp specs. I had a Rudistor NX03 That was designed to run hot. Small on board heat sinks, enclosed chassis. OK for the designer, I didn't care for it.


----------



## Brandon7s

I just got my M-Stage amp in; have been listening to it for the last 30 minutes through my various headphones. This is my first headphone amp, so I wasn't really sure what to expect. My initial impression of this amp versus my Emu1820's headphone jack is that the differences are subtle, but there is a definite improvement, mostly in the lower-frequencies. From my very limited experience thus far, the lows seem tighter, more precise, and deeper. After I get some more listening on this thing, and do some A/B testing, I'll write a more thorough, though still oh so amateur, review. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Right now I'm listening to my K701s, and the M-Stage has _definitely_ improved the bass depth and response. Sounding good so far.


----------



## GGould

Really affordable! 175 USD if you can go to china to pick it up. cost more with shipping to the States. I shall consider this one before jump into KICAS.


----------



## audiofil

Excellent review, well done.

 For a very long time I wanted a Lehmann BCL, but odds have never been in favor of that. Well my luck changed and I bought an M-stage 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I've got to listen to a real BCL only briefly some 4 years ago and what I recall is anything but accurate. Still it left a strong and vivid impression.
 When listening to the M-stage I can definitely recognize some of the character and qualities that made the Lehmann BCL famous and left a mark in my memory (warm, smooth with excellent dynamics and detail).

 The only amp I have to compare right now is Heed Canamp and the M-stage is clearly superior in terms of , let's say, "technical" sound quality. But what's more important for me - I feel that M-stage has beaten the Heed at it's own game: matching with AKG K701's character. Many call it synergy, although I don't want to blow that horn just yet (need more listening time).

 The opamp is replaceable and I've tried briefly LM4562 and AD8066 (the only chips I have left). Both sounded better than the default OPA2134, but it's too early to pick favorites.
 The amp is still burning in and so am I.


----------



## GGould

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *audiofil* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Excellent review, well done.

 For a very long time I wanted a Lehmann BCL, but odds have never been in favor of that. Well my luck changed and I bought an M-stage 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I've got to listen to a real BCL only briefly some 4 years ago and what I recall is anything but accurate. Still it left a strong and vivid impression.
 When listening to the M-stage I can definitely recognize some of the character and qualities that made the Lehmann BCL famous and left a mark in my memory (warm, smooth with excellent dynamics and detail).

 The only amp I have to compare right now is Heed Canamp and the M-stage is clearly superior in terms of , let's say, "technical" sound quality. But what's more important for me - I feel that M-stage has beaten the Heed at it's own game: matching with AKG K701's character. Many call it synergy, although I don't want to blow that horn just yet (need more listening time).

 The opamp is replaceable and I've tried briefly LM4562 and AD8066 (the only chips I have left). Both sounded better than the default OPA2134, but it's too early to pick favorites.
 The amp is still burning in and so am I._

 

Want to see comparison between the clone and the original if possible.


----------



## project86

I'm glad to hear that I'm not crazy, and that other people are enjoying this amp too! Anyone have one in silver? I'd like to see pics just for the heck of it.... I'm still undecided about which color looks better.

 Audiofil brought up a good point: The opamp is in a socket rather than soldered, thus easily swappable. I'm of the opinion that the designer picks what they want and designs around that (and especially since the BCL was not a budget item so wasn't limited by that factor), but I know many people love to swap opamps and do feel they can get an improvement. So thanks for mentioning that.


----------



## Brandon7s

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *project86* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm glad to hear that I'm not crazy, and that other people are enjoying this amp too! Anyone have one in silver? I'd like to see pics just for the heck of it.... I'm still undecided about which color looks better._

 

 Mine is in silver. I wanted to be different. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 - Plus, it matches my desk better. I'll take some pictures and post em' here when I get off of work in the morning. I do wish the whole case would have been silver though, instead of just the face plate. Still, looks pretty good to me. Just gotta find a better place to put it, other than on a stool next to my rather small desk.


----------



## audiofil

I have the silver version as well.

 In my understanding of the design topology OPA2134 serves as a buffer stage in front of the class A output transistors.
 I'm not sure Lehmann intended the circuit in such a manner that would be tailored around the OPA. I think he just found it suitable to the overall design, the low price of the opamp being another advantage.
 OPA2134 is not a bad opamp by any means, it's very flexible (wide range of voltage input & bandwidth) and seems to be a favorite amongst manufacturers (when they don't use the ubiquitous NE5532).
 It's not particularly fast (only 20V/us) nor something to rave about, but seems to get the job done very well.

 When I swapped it with LM4562 and AD8066 the improvements were rather subtle (but still obvious), which reinforces the fact that OPA2134 was a good choice for the design. 
 I'm sure there are many other opamps that can bring even more benefits to the amp (perhaps 2 singles on a BG adapter). 
 Just need to buy and try


----------



## audiofil

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GGould* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Want to see comparison between the clone and the original if possible._

 

I do not have access to a Lehmann BCL. The are no dealers or owners that I know of in my country.
 The only time I listened to it was at a hi-fi show in Germany.

 Perhaps BCL owners will get the chance at some point to listen to the M-stage and post their impressions.


----------



## Geared4me

Thank you for such a thorough review. As a relative newbie to headphones this is exactly the kind of review that I need to help me make a more educated choice of amps.


----------



## Brandon7s

Here's some pictures of my silver-front Matrix M-Stage. Yes, my place is a mess. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			

























 On the stool rungs are: DT990\250 Pro, DT880\250 Pro, ATH-AD700, and obviously there's the AKG K701 up top. The audio interface on my desk is an E-MU 1820, and there's also an Astro Mixamp on the right. The phone is my new Motorola Droid, which I love.


----------



## coolfungadget

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Brandon7s* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Here's some pictures of my silver-front Matrix M-Stage. Yes, my place is a mess. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	
























 On the stool rungs are: DT990\250 Pro, DT880\250 Pro, ATH-AD700, and obviously there's the AKG K701 up top. The audio interface on my desk is an E-MU 1820, and there's also an Astro Mixamp on the right. The phone is my new Motorola Droid, which I love. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Nice pics!

 Can I _borrow_ them and use on my eBay listing?


----------



## Brandon7s

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *coolfungadget* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Nice pics!

 Can I borrow them and use on my eBay listing? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

 Oh, absolutely! Feel free to use them however you'd like.


----------



## pekingduck

I like how you use the chair as a headphone stand lol


----------



## coolfungadget

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pekingduck* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I like how you use the chair as a headphone stand lol 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I love that stool too.


----------



## coyote_5

So would you think this amp would be a good match for K702s?


----------



## project86

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *coyote_5* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So would you think this amp would be a good match for K702s?_

 

User Brandon7s posted earlier that he is liking it with his 701s (which are the same thing). Perhaps he will post more when he gets more listening time in. I am actually rediscovering my 702s lately with this amp. I know the 701/702 has had a backlash of goodwill from this forum lately, but darned if it isn't one of my favorite headphones at the moment. And I have a lot to choose from.


----------



## wavoman

project86 -- in your original post you said some of the recordings used in your review you consider reference quality. May I ask which ones?


----------



## project86

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *wavoman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_project86 -- in your original post you said some of the recordings used in your review you consider reference quality. May I ask which ones?_

 

Sure! I realize that "reference" is sort of a loaded word.... I consider my L3000 "reference" quality although they do not compete with some of my others some areas, like soundstage, midrange detail, and tippy-top high end extension. So with that definition of "reference" in mind, I'd answer:

 Ernie Watts - Unity (XRCD): One of the best sounding redbook CDs I have ever heard. 

 FIM Audiophile Reference IV (SACD): Various artists and genres but almost all are pure gold. Of particular note is Yang City Variations by the Jing Ying Soloists, The Look of Love by Jacintha, Lover's Tear and The Swan by Theresa Perez, and Canon in D by the All Star Percussion Ensemble. 

 Nils Petter Molvaer – Khmer: Another of my favorite redbook discs of all time. Amazing low frequency extension and drums of all types, and of course that trumpet...

 Legends of Jazz Showcase (Blu-ray): Contender for the title of best concert disc ever. Recorded in a studio, you get the best of both worlds - live performance and great recording. I neglected to mention, but rather than use my otherwise excellent sounding Samsung BD-1200 (which would limit me to the standard 640K LPCM track) I played this one on my Oppo BDP-83SE, using the lossless TrueHD track downmixed to 2 channel through the analog outs. Chris Botti, Ramsey Lewis, Chick Corea.... so many outstanding performances. 

 Classical Sampler (XRCD import): Can you tell I really like XRCD? This has a bit of everything from Haydn to Bach, Beethoven to Copland, and it all sounds wonderful. I've got a bunch of classical SACDs and DVD-Audio discs but I keep coming back to this lowly redbook title.

 That's about it for the great sounding stuff, the rest fall somewhere between pretty good and just "meh". I hope that answers your question.


----------



## niranhopper

Hi. I have ordered them over ebay and currently expecting delivery. So far very quick shipping and hope the speculation and reviews are true. Will update on my impression after receiving them.


----------



## Marximus

AAH! Brandon! I have those exact ones: The AD700s and the DT990 Pros. I like the mids and soundstage of the AD700s, and I like the bass impact of the DT990 Pros. Would the K70xs and the M-Stage be a good fit for me?


----------



## Brandon7s

Hey folks. Unfortunately I haven't had a lot of time to listen to my new amp much recently, as I'm scheduled for an 8 or 9 day workweek, and something else always seems to come up when I'm home from work... The good news is that I'm getting a bunch more burn-in time with my K701s, and the M-Stage as well. Not that I put a lot of stock in burn-ins, but I figured it couldn't hurt. Plus, I like to be sure that the amp is performing solidly without any issues, ans Project86 said in his first post.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Marximus* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_AAH! Brandon! I have those exact ones: The AD700s and the DT990 Pros. I like the mids and soundstage of the AD700s, and I like the bass impact of the DT990 Pros. Would the K70xs and the M-Stage be a good fit for me?_

 

 Seems like your headphone journey was similar to mine. I started out with the AD700, and quickly found them to be too thin on the low-end, but I loved their mids and soundstage. I then tried the DT990\250 Pros, and while they have wonderful bass and very good highs, the mids were definitely too recessed for my tastes. I then bought the K701, and they were exactly what I was looking for. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 - If you took those two headphones, the DT990 and AD700, and somehow melted them together in a way that would still produce sound 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, I think you would get the K701. 

 One of the things I didn't like about the AD700s was how they sounded awesome on acoustic music, like Kings of Convenience, Alisson Krauss, Nickel Creek, etc.. but they sounded so bad with rock stuff like Dredg, Coheed and Cambria, Jimmy Eat World, Foo Fighters, etc. The K701s sound great with everything I throw at them. Honestly, I even enjoy Massive Attack on these things.

 Actually, just today I gave my AD700s to my brother (I know, I'm so nice. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




), because I just couldn't find a use for them anymore. The K701s do everything better. The DT990 Pros I AM keeping though. There is something so dang fun about these phones, in my opinion. Especially with movies and games (though I still prefer my K701s for those most of the time). The DT990s definitely have their uses, and the mood to wear them hits me frequently enough that I can justify keeping them. 

 Oh, and this is a bit unrelated but I just ordered the ATH-M50s. Looking forward to trying those suckers out! I needed a closed pair of cans, and those seem to be the best on the current market for recording/mixing. 

 So, to answer your question Marximus: yes, I think the K701s and the Matrix M-Stage would be just about perfect for you, considering my own experience with your current upgrade path. I was first worried that the K701 wouldn't have much more bass than the AD700, but that's not the case. It has a good bit more, and the sound is a lot more full altogether. I the mids aren't as forward as the AD700, but they ARE more natural sounding (and definitely more forward than the DT990s). The highs are also less shrill. I haven't found a song with the K701+M-Stage that produced painful highs yet, while I have noticed a few on the DT990, and many on the AD700.

 Once my weekend hits me on Wednesday-Thursday I will try to do some good ol' fashion A-B testing with the K701, DT990 Pro, and my DT880 Pro. (By the way, I don't recommend the DT880 Pro.. I honestly feel that the DT990 does everything better, at least from my limited listening time with the DT880s). I would like to use some songs that Project86 has mentioned, but the only disc that he has which I have is Sufjan Stevens - Illinois (which is _awesome_) so I'll probably pick some choice songs from that and then pick some other random songs that I know very well, which others might have heard.


----------



## Marximus

I went to the 32 Ohm Audio store in Portland yesterday and tried both the stock and ALO-recabled versions of the K701. I was blown away by the recabled ones, less so by the stock version. Admittedly, I used my iPod for some of the comparisons, but the recabled ones sounded surprisingly good out of it. I was equally blown away by the difference recabling will do. When I first listened to them, I thought, "Who thought these were bass-lite?" The authority and presence of the lower registers was very nice.


----------



## SubieMan09

Excellent write up. I took the plung and ordered on the 24th. You're such a good salesman
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Do you think this would work well with HD650?


----------



## project86

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *SubieMan09* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Excellent write up. I took the plung and ordered on the 24th. You're such a good salesman
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Do you think this would work well with HD650?_

 

Thank you. It is certainly not my intention to be a salesman. If I like something, I review it and share why and how I like it. That's what this forum is all about! 

 I think this amp is great for Sennheiser: HD580/600/650/800 all sound extremely good with it. I know Senn has used the original Lehmann in many demos, so there really must be some "synergy" going on there.


----------



## waterlogic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *project86* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sure! I realize that "reference" is sort of a loaded word.... I consider my L3000 "reference" quality although they do not compete with some of my others some areas, like soundstage, midrange detail, and tippy-top high end extension. So with that definition of "reference" in mind, I'd answer:

 Ernie Watts - Unity (XRCD): One of the best sounding redbook CDs I have ever heard. 

 FIM Audiophile Reference IV (SACD): Various artists and genres but almost all are pure gold. Of particular note is Yang City Variations by the Jing Ying Soloists, The Look of Love by Jacintha, Lover's Tear and The Swan by Theresa Perez, and Canon in D by the All Star Percussion Ensemble. 

 Nils Petter Molvaer – Khmer: Another of my favorite redbook discs of all time. Amazing low frequency extension and drums of all types, and of course that trumpet...

 Legends of Jazz Showcase (Blu-ray): Contender for the title of best concert disc ever. Recorded in a studio, you get the best of both worlds - live performance and great recording. I neglected to mention, but rather than use my otherwise excellent sounding Samsung BD-1200 (which would limit me to the standard 640K LPCM track) I played this one on my Oppo BDP-83SE, using the lossless TrueHD track downmixed to 2 channel through the analog outs. Chris Botti, Ramsey Lewis, Chick Corea.... so many outstanding performances. 

 Classical Sampler (XRCD import): Can you tell I really like XRCD? This has a bit of everything from Haydn to Bach, Beethoven to Copland, and it all sounds wonderful. I've got a bunch of classical SACDs and DVD-Audio discs but I keep coming back to this lowly redbook title.

 That's about it for the great sounding stuff, the rest fall somewhere between pretty good and just "meh". I hope that answers your question._

 

Thank you for one of the best reviews !

 Similar taste about music here.

 Have you tried : Dire Straits : Brothers in Arms XRCD2 especially

 07 The Man's Too Strong: 

 guitar, bass and drum cresscendo - first at 1:20 and few times after that. 

 This part brings quite some amps into clipping.
 Before buying an amp for HD 800, I had a chance to audition Lehmann BCL among others . The only one amp that could properly drive through was Violectric HPA V100 . So if Matrix manages this properly (try at different volume levels) it is better than Lehmann BCL (ok, this is one aspect only but still) and Matrix is a huge bang for the buck.

 Thank you for your time and trouble.

 Cheers


----------



## project86

Unfortunately I do not have that particular XRCD, so I can't help with that. I will say that if the BCL did not handle it to your liking then I really doubt that the M-Stage will perform any differently. Supposedly that Lake People/Violectric amp is really nice so it wouldn't shock me. But even my Luxman has met it's match here and there.... it happens.


----------



## waterlogic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *project86* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Unfortunately I do not have that particular XRCD, so I can't help with that. I will say that if the BCL did not handle it to your liking then I really doubt that the M-Stage will perform any differently. Supposedly that Lake People/Violectric amp is really nice so it wouldn't shock me. But even my Luxman has met it's match here and there.... it happens._

 

It is no need to be XRCD any red book version will do.

 (if you PM me I can point you to rapidshare where you can download the file)

 A question: Lehmann has dip switch gain setting (at the bottom of the box).
 Does Matrix allow such a setting (sorry if you mentioned this already and I overlooked it..)

 Otherwise I agree with you; again great review.


----------



## niranhopper

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *waterlogic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 A question: Lehmann has dip switch gain setting (at the bottom of the box).
 Does Matrix allow such a setting (sorry if you mentioned this already and I overlooked it..)
_

 


 as per the pics on ebay, the matrix has 4 gain settings


----------



## project86

Waterlogic: OK, if any redbook will do I'll try to find one and give it a listen. To be honest I'm not a huge fan (or to be REALLY honest I've never given them much of a chance) but I'll see what I can do.

 An yes, there are a total of 4 gain selections via DIP switches on the bottom: 0, 10, 18, and 20. I usually leave mine on 0 but do use 10 sometimes.


----------



## Brandon7s

I had some time last night so I did some A/B testing, comparing my E-MU1820 headphone out to the Matrix M-Stage. I performed this with all my current phones, DT880\250, DT990\250, and my K701. I used a FLAC rip of a few Sufjan Stevens' songs, though I can't remember the titles of them at the moment due to their crazy names 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 - I also used a FLAC rip of Damien Rice's song "Volcano".

 Honestly guys, I could tell almost no difference between the two. As far as I can make out, there could be two reasons for this.

 1: Both amplification methods just sound remarkably similar.
 2: The Matrix M-Stage is a very transparent amplifier, which means that using the EMU1820 as a DAC is the limiting factor.

 Any thoughts? Would getting a dedicated DAC unit further improve the sound?


----------



## niranhopper

Hi

 Received the matrix today. I got the matrix for 165 GBP and i was lucky to escape any customs charges. I am listening to my HD600 and my source is Lavry DA10. When comparing them to my lavry DA10 headphone out, the matrix seems to remove the 'sennheiser veil' with its higher db settings. These are my initial impressions and so far i am not dissapointed. 

 I sold Lehmann BLC one month back and i am familiar with their synergy with HD600. The matrix is definite transparent sounding as the Lehmann but still not sure if they are in the same league as the Lehmann. I should wait and give the Matrix more time to burn and settle down. For now, i am really excited and these are definitely exceptional value for money for a UK buyer.


----------



## coolfungadget

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *niranhopper* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi

 Received the matrix today. I got the matrix for 165 GBP and i was lucky to escape any customs charges. I am listening to my HD600 and my source is Lavry DA10. When comparing them to my lavry DA10 headphone out, the matrix seems to remove the 'sennheiser veil' with its higher db settings. These are my initial impressions and so far i am not dissapointed. 

 I sold Lehmann BLC one month back and i am familiar with their synergy with HD600. The matrix is definite transparent sounding as the Lehmann but still not sure if they are in the same league as the Lehmann. I should wait and give the Matrix more time to burn and settle down. For now, i am really excited and these are definitely exceptional value for money for a UK buyer._

 

IMO, 10db gain is the best for HD650/600.


----------



## Marximus

Hoo boy, REALLY tempted to pull the trigger on this for my K701s. What happened to your $150 budget, Marximus?


----------



## Brandon7s

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Marximus* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hoo boy, REALLY tempted to pull the trigger on this for my K701s. What happened to your $150 budget, Marximus?
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

 Oh, you knew better than to plan a budget! This is headfi!


----------



## Marximus

Yeah, that budget's gone now. Consider the trigger pulled. I sent coolfungadget a message mentioning the black, and the 100-120 volt version, with US power supply. That is correct, is it not?


----------



## buz

Does anyone know how this would compare to an Audio GD C2C? Also, any definite word how it compares to the Sheer Audio Dynalo?


----------



## DTrain

Any gain setting suggestions for AKG k701s?


----------



## Brandon7s

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Marximus* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yeah, that budget's gone now. Consider the trigger pulled. I sent coolfungadget a message mentioning the black, and the 100-120 volt version, with US power supply. That is correct, is it not?_

 

 That should do it. 

 For the K701 settings, I use the switches on the bottom at 10db, instead of 0. You could use 18 or 20, I don't really think it makes a difference.


----------



## Mad Max

Fascinating. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 And rollable opamp to boot.


----------



## Ypoknons

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Mad Max* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Fascinating. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 And rollable opamp to boot._

 

Interesting. I've been avoiding this thing due to moral qualms but I do think it'll be more of a different design if I can roll in my own opamps.


----------



## Brandon7s

I've been meaning to try different opamps, but considering that I've never messed with them before, does anyone have any recommendations? 

 Heck, I don't even know where to buy them from. Where do you folks get your opamps?


----------



## buz

You can get them on ebay, but there are a lot of fakes. Look for the opamp thread 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.

 I just got a bunch of LT1028 which are supposed to be very nice to try in my NG98. If you go the opamp rolling route for the M-Stage, please report back - I am seriously considering buying one myself


----------



## Mad Max

I highly recommend a pair of ADA4627-1BRZ on a 2x1 adapter.
 ADA4627-1ARZ for same sound with some warmth - stupendous opamps, then there's also AD797 (mono opamp), a nice bassy opamp. Any of these will give the amp a nice boost in refinement, much better than OPA2134 I see in the pics. AD744AH (another mono opamp) synergizes with my ipod for a somewhat more natural sound, so you might get the same result but it depends largely on your source.
 Wouldn't mind getting y'all's opamp rolling impressions in the Opamp thread as well.


----------



## audiofil

The 'default' opamp in my M-stage is now OPA2107. 
 It sounds significantly better to me than OPA2134. The presentation is smoother and more extended, both in terms of frequency response (esp. bass) and spatially (esp. depth of soundstage)

 LM4562 works very good as well, it is more transparent than 2134. The reason I don't like it much is a slight shift towards the dry and cool side.

 I have on order AD797 and ADA4627, but it will take a while till they get here.


----------



## Ypoknons

lol I haven't read the opamp thread yet, but it seems to me the AD797 _solves every single problem of audio reproduction out there_. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But if the new Matrix mini-i does opamp rolling I might get that instead.


----------



## buz

Either AD797 or LT1028A 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. Alternatively, you could also just get the Burson HA160 (if leeperry is to be believed 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )

 Well the new mini-i is still a few months away and its not clear whether it will do opamp rolling yet...


----------



## Ypoknons

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *buz* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Alternatively, you could also just get the Burson HA160 (if leeperry is to be believed 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )_

 

Yep, I've heard the Burson. Great amp, and the housing is amazing. Deciding on an amp is really a headache, there's so many great designs, not possible to sample them all... Funny, I always tell the noobs just get something and don't sweat it but it's so hard when it's your own decision. But the m-stage is cheap enough to get when I feel like it for some opamp rolling fun.


----------



## buz

I now what you mean - I'm trying to decide between saving money (first want to try modding the NG98 with LT1028C I just got), a HD600 or an M-Stage (or possibly Dynalo) now


----------



## SubieMan09

Sorry to hijack this thread. I just recently acquired this amp and am loving it. I finally decided to take the plunge and will plan to get my first DAC. Can anyone recommendation one that goes nicely with M-Stage and HD650? My budget is below ~$350 and USB isn't important to me. The cheaper the better but don't want to sacrifice SQ
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Thanks!


----------



## sunneebear

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *SubieMan09* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sorry to hijack this thread. I just recently acquired this amp and am loving it. I finally decided to take the plunge and will plan to get my first DAC. Can anyone recommendation one that goes nicely with M-Stage and HD650? My budget is below ~$350 and USB isn't important to me. The cheaper the better but don't want to sacrifice SQ
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Thanks!_

 

$350? just in the range of the Matrix Mini-i. Very versatile and works great with headphone amps and speaker amps.


----------



## XLR1

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Brandon7s* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've been meaning to try different opamps, but considering that I've never messed with them before, does anyone have any recommendations? 

 Heck, I don't even know where to buy them from. Where do you folks get your opamps?_

 


 I got some op amps from HiFlight, a member on this form. I do not believe that he is a retailer, so his selection is limited. I was very satisfied. Send him a PM, explain your situation, and see what he suggest.


----------



## Peter_in_the_Bay

Great job. Thanks


----------



## SubieMan09

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sunneebear* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_$350? just in the range of the Matrix Mini-i. Very versatile and works great with headphone amps and speaker amps._

 

It seems the Audio-GD FUN and the Mini-i are popular DAC+Amp. I wonder which of the two DAC work better with the M-Stage? If there's a better DAC out there <$400, please suggest. Thanks!


----------



## orkney

My M-Stage has just arrived. It is indeed a simple, inexpensive and good amplifier and it's well-built to boot. If I hadn't just invested heavily in tubes (and moving house) I'd keep it as an all-rounder and alternate for HD800s, which it drives convincingly.

 best,

 o


----------



## nsx_23

Anyone using one with a hotaudio dac extasy?


----------



## TheShaman

Very interesting amp. Although I'm a DIY guy myself, this amp seems to be all I need for my office setup in a well built package.

 Anyone has some idea about how it'd compare to DIY gear (of the M^3/CK²III level) or similarly priced headamps of DIY pedigree like the Sheer Audio HA-006+ (DynaLo)?

 I'll be using it with my AKG 702s.


----------



## keabler

Does any one know how this amp will perform with a low impedance headphone like the Denon AH D2000?


----------



## audiofil

M-stage has excellent drive with both low and high impedance headphones.

  Quote:


 Anyone has some idea about how it'd compare to DIY gear (of the M^3/CK²III level) or similarly priced headamps of DIY pedigree like the Sheer Audio HA-006+ (DynaLo)? 
 

Having built and sold an M3 and CK²III some years ago, I can only compare them by memory. So take it with a grain of salt.
 M-stage is more synergistic with K701 than I remember my old M3 to be. To my ears it feels more refined and smooth. 
 In technical aspects (detail, dynamics, soundstage, etc) I think they're similar.

 C2KIII didn't pair as nice with K701 as it did with Sennheiser HD650.

 Cannot say anything about Dynalo as I've never heard one. From what I've read seems like a very good amp and a worthy competitor.


----------



## TheShaman

Thanks audiofil.
 I think there is a consensus that the M^3 is better suited to the 701/702s than the CK²III. That's a pity because I think I like the CK²III (as a design, not to mention the onboard PSU!).
 Anyway, thing is I like making my own gear but, seeing amps like the Matrix or the Sheer (and if indeed they perform on the same level), I can't help but wonder if it's really worth it (performance/cost -wise) to DIY. :/


----------



## buz

I am this >< close to ordering one. In fact, if my favorite electronics shop can't offer me a HDP for ordering like uh tomorrow, I will order one 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. I will also be trying opamps 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 If you enjoy making stuff (I don't) then by all means it should be worth doing it yourself. If not, decision is easy with great Asian products


----------



## lescanard

Well - I pulled the trigger yesterday so am eagerly awaiting the arrival of my new M-Stage. I was torn between the HA-006+ (Dynalo) and the M-Stage, eventually coming to the realization that both were probably great SS amps so there was really no wrong answer.

 The more I read about the Lehman, the more I realized if the M-Stage has similar characteristics and design then I should be quite happy. The price is certainly right. I love (and will continue to love) my LD I+ as a really nice value entry-level hybrid/tube amp - and probably will someday upgrade to a Woo Audio 6 or something. For this - I really was looking for a nice Solid State compliment that will splendidly drive my favorite k701s and D2000s - so I am hoping this is the ticket to round out my setup for now.

 Thanks to all those who commented and for the excellent original review - the thread really swayed me from the Dynalo which I was pretty set on until this week.


----------



## buz

Pulled the trigger today 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Hope the bloody vulcano does not delay shipping too long


----------



## Geir

Anyone in this thread that have tried it with denon d5000/d7000 and can give some advice whether this is a good upgrade over LD 1+?


----------



## audiofil

I've never tried Denon on M-stage, but I assume it works great.
 M-stage is a BIG step up from Little dot I+.


----------



## buz

Geir: I will try my D2000 on the M-Stage as soon as I get it


----------



## Geir

Ah, **** it, this is head-fi, anyone special to order it from, or is coolfungadget the man to go to? (already got my musiland there)


----------



## audiofil

I believe he's the only international retailer for Matrix M-stage.


----------



## buz

There seems to be another guy on ebay but coolfungadget is reliable and communication is good so I say for it.


----------



## nsx_23

I'm thinking M-Stage + HD650 + Dac-extasy as a small desktop set-up. Thoughts?


----------



## TheShaman

This guy sells at a *very* good price (which includes shipping). Seems like a no-brainer at the price but I'm still looking for some info on the Lehmann/M-Stage _VS_ M^3 thing before I pull the trigger (must...resist)! 

 He also sells on eBay but at a higher price (probably due to eBay fees).
 I haven't dealt with him in the past, but his eBay feedback is OK (seller: ns_fm_transmitter).

 Based on personal experiance I can only say good things about coolfungadget's service.


----------



## Deep Funk

I should put this one on my wish list. My AKG K240 DF needs a good amplifier. If not this an amplifier/DAC combination will be the next option.


----------



## nsx_23

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *TheShaman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This guy sells at a *very* good price (which includes shipping). Seems like a no-brainer at the price but I'm still looking for some info on the Lehmann/M-Stage VS M^3 thing before I pull the trigger (must...resist)! 

 He also sells on eBay but at a higher price (probably due to eBay fees).
 I haven't dealt with him in the past, but his eBay feedback is OK (seller: ns_fm_transmitter).

 Based on personal experiance I can only say good things about coolfungadget's service._

 

Hmm, he's about $30AUD cheaper than coolfungadgets. Haven't dealt with him at all before though...

 I couldn't find the item on his ebay store either.


----------



## Frank I

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *TheShaman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This guy sells at a *very* good price (which includes shipping). Seems like a no-brainer at the price but I'm still looking for some info on the Lehmann/M-Stage VS M^3 thing before I pull the trigger (must...resist)! 

 He also sells on eBay but at a higher price (probably due to eBay fees).
 I haven't dealt with him in the past, but his eBay feedback is OK (seller: ns_fm_transmitter).

 Based on personal experiance I can only say good things about coolfungadget's service._

 

I am a little nervous ordering from this guy. He is selling Little Dot for which he is not authorized and I seem to remember someone ordering a Little Dot MK111 and dint get it for almost 2 months and I believe this was the seller.


----------



## coolfungadget

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *audiofil* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I believe he's the only international retailer for Matrix M-stage._

 

Bingo


----------



## coolfungadget

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Frank I* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am a little nervous ordering from this guy. He is selling Little Dot for which he is not authorized and I seem to remember someone ordering a Little Dot MK111 and dint get it for almost 2 months and I believe this was the seller._

 

This guy copied all my pictures and texts, even fonts!

 He doesn't even bother to their own pics, do you guys really believe he can provide any 'service'?


----------



## Frank I

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *coolfungadget* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This guy copied all my pictures and texts, even fonts!

 He doesn't even bother to their own pics, do you guys really believe he can provide any 'service'?_

 

I agree to me it worth the extra thirty bucks for no hassle.


----------



## Geir

Bought a musliand from coolfungadget before, so if he reads this, do not be surprised if an order from Norway is coming within the next 24hours.


----------



## SPACEACE

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *coolfungadget* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This guy copied all my pictures and texts, even fonts!

 He doesn't even bother to their own pics, do you guys really believe he can provide any 'service'?_

 

Off topic ,but I'm in for the M stage. this is a great amp as you sold my friend one and we've had a few music jams. I do have a question tho about two other products you sell as well. The Aune (which I've read most all the reviews) Vs. the INFO NG98. There's not much as far as reviews on the NG98 but they seem very close to the Aune. So in your opinion how do these stack up against one another? I've heard the Aune with 20 or 24v regulated and Browndogged AD744's turn it in to a simi-giant killer. But I'm really liking the looks(size) of the NG98. Would it be on par or should I just get the Aune???


----------



## buz

I have the NG98 and am pretty satisfied with it except for the channel imbalance at low volumes which I hope to fix with the M-Stage (tho adding the LT1028C definitely helped the package over the standard OPA2604). I think DAC wise it is a pretty good deal. Oh and it comes with a 24V PSU from coolfungadget 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 If/as/when I get the time, I will definitely do a semi formal review of the combo


----------



## fromatoz

Hello, I am new here.

 Is there any chance to have 220-240V as well as 100-120V? Or to change it somehow from one voltage to the other? 

 Unfortunately I need both, for usage in Japan and Switzerland. That's why I am considering the Sheer Audio HA-006++ ... How would they compare soundwise? I don't know what to do ... Any advice would be very much appreciated.

 Thanks.


----------



## Frank I

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *TheShaman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This guy sells at a *very* good price (which includes shipping). Seems like a no-brainer at the price but I'm still looking for some info on the Lehmann/M-Stage VS M^3 thing before I pull the trigger (must...resist)! 

 He also sells on eBay but at a higher price (probably due to eBay fees).
 I haven't dealt with him in the past, but his eBay feedback is OK (seller: ns_fm_transmitter).

 Based on personal experiance I can only say good things about coolfungadget's service._

 

Be careful with this guy. I received an email from him david Gao he admitted ripped off Little Dot designs and said the Matix is being redesigned and can sell the new model at that price. Sound like this guy is making his own amps and they are all ripped off designs.


----------



## Frank I

Great review. Have you heard the Audio c2c as I am also considering this but the Matrix seem more usable for 701/


----------



## TheShaman

Thanks for the heads-up on the HLLY shop, guys. 
 If anyone gets this amp and has a chance to compare it to an M3, please let us know.

 Frank, snip that quote please if possible.


----------



## lescanard

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *audiofil* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_M-stage is a BIG step up from Little dot I+._

 

I'll be happy about this, can you maybe be a bit more specific - what in your opinion makes it a big step up? I love my LD I+ so am hopeful the M-Stage is superior and will be a big improvement for me. Thanks.


----------



## CANiSLAYu

I ordered one from him the other day and he e-mailed me the next day saying that they were out of stock and that they would be getting a new, upgraded version in about 3 weeks.

 I couldn't wait that long since I need something immediately, so I didn't ask any questions about what was changing, but it might be worth looking into for anyone that's considering one of these. You might want to hold off a few more weeks!

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *TheShaman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This guy sells at a *very* good price (which includes shipping). Seems like a no-brainer at the price but I'm still looking for some info on the Lehmann/M-Stage VS M^3 thing before I pull the trigger (must...resist)! 

 He also sells on eBay but at a higher price (probably due to eBay fees).
 I haven't dealt with him in the past, but his eBay feedback is OK (seller: ns_fm_transmitter).

 Based on personal experiance I can only say good things about coolfungadget's service._


----------



## lescanard

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *CANiSLAYu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I ordered one from him the other day and he e-mailed me the next day saying that they were out of stock and that they would be getting a new, upgraded version in about 3 weeks.

 I couldn't wait that long since I need something immediately, so I didn't ask any questions about what was changing, but it might be worth looking into for anyone that's considering one of these. You might want to hold off a few more weeks!_

 

Who are you talking about? Coolfungadget or the HLLY guy?


----------



## CANiSLAYu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lescanard* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Who are you talking about? Coolfungadget or the HLLY guy?_

 

David from HLLY Audio.


----------



## Frank I

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *CANiSLAYu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_David from HLLY Audio._

 

He is probably counterfeiting a new model. He admits they ripped off Little Dot. I emailed Tam and am waiting for replies. Now i want o know if new model is coming out also.


----------



## CANiSLAYu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Frank I* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_He is probably counterfeiting a new model. He admits they ripped off Little Dot. I emailed Tam and am waiting for replies. Now i want o know if new model is coming out also._

 

Just read your most recent posts in this thread. Sounds like I got off easy, haha. I told him I couldn't wait that long for another version and to cancel my order and please process a refund and he did so immediately.


----------



## Frank I

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *CANiSLAYu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just read your most recent posts in this thread. Sounds like I got off easy, haha. I told him I couldn't wait that long for another version and to cancel my order and please process a refund and he did so immediately._

 

I haven't ordered any amp yet. I remembered the Hlly guy from the thread with a Litlle Dot amp and for me to save 30.00 wasn't worth it. If I do order the amp it will be from Jeff Tam as he feedback is 100 percent. I still have,t decided between the Matrix or the Audio GD c2c.


----------



## willie0405

last time i saw Matrix M-Stage $249.95 on ebay now $269.95.
 i hope the price down to $249.95.


----------



## project86

I'm not sure why the price went up, but really it's worth it even for the extra $20. Maybe shipping costs have increased? 

 As for the HLLY seller, I think I'd rather spend the few extra bucks and buy from an excellent seller like Mr. Tam than chance it with an unknown. He stole the entire Ebay listing (including my review link) and didn't bother to even take his own pics or change a thing.


----------



## Frank I

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *project86* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm not sure why the price went up, but really it's worth it even for the extra $20. Maybe shipping costs have increased? 

 As for the HLLY seller, I think I'd rather spend the few extra bucks and buy from an excellent seller like Mr. Tam than chance it with an unknown. He stole the entire Ebay listing (including my review link) and didn't bother to even take his own pics or change a thing._

 

I agree. Just waiting for Mr Tam to answer my question regarding shipping and stock and I want to order. Curious if Hlly is right in saying a new model is coming out.


----------



## Frank I

I pulled the plug and ordered the Matrix from Coolfungadget this morning, I ordered it in black and Jeffrey emailed me last night that it would ship Monday. Looking forward to getting the amp.


----------



## lescanard

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Frank I* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I pulled the plug and ordered the Matrix from Coolfungadget this morning, I ordered it in black and Jeffrey emailed me last night that it would ship Monday. Looking forward to getting the amp._

 

Thanks for the update - I had ordered from J Tam last week (supposed to have shipped Friday) and was concerned as well when I read that post about a new version coming out. The $20 difference to buy from a respected seller was more than enough reason. 

 Curious Frank I - any reply from Jeffrey about that new model coming soon? I assume since you ordered it it may have been bogus.


----------



## Frank I

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lescanard* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks for the update - I had ordered from J Tam last week (supposed to have shipped Friday) and was concerned as well when I read that post about a new version coming out. The $20 difference to buy from a respected seller was more than enough reason. 

 Curious Frank I - any reply from Jeffrey about that new model coming soon? I assume since you ordered it it may have been bogus._

 

He did not email me regarding any new models yet. I just ordered the Matrix because of all the favorable reviews especially driving the K701. I wouldn't believe anything that Hlly guy said as he is probably builkding his own counterfeit as he did with the Litlle Dot models.


----------



## Frank I

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *project86* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm not sure why the price went up, but really it's worth it even for the extra $20. Maybe shipping costs have increased? 

 As for the HLLY seller, I think I'd rather spend the few extra bucks and buy from an excellent seller like Mr. Tam than chance it with an unknown. He stole the entire Ebay listing (including my review link) and didn't bother to even take his own pics or change a thing._

 

I noticed there is power cable now included which would explain the increase in price. Also curious to gain setting you used on AKG 702 as that is the main reason I purchased this amp plus your outstanding review.


----------



## techenvy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *CANiSLAYu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I ordered one from him the other day and he e-mailed me the next day saying that they were out of stock and that they would be getting a new, upgraded version in about 3 weeks.

 I couldn't wait that long since I need something immediately, so I didn't ask any questions about what was changing, but it might be worth looking into for anyone that's considering one of these. You might want to hold off a few more weeks!_

 

my security keeps tellin me their is a trojan in that link, fyi, but its hilly so i dont know maybe ok.'


 so how is the pot on this brick. i like. i was gonna get the burson until i found out about the 24 click pot,, that would drive me insane, i am especially diggin the two inputs on this unit.


----------



## coolfungadget

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Frank I* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I noticed there is power cable now included which would explain the increase in price. Also curious to gain setting you used on AKG 702 as that is the main reason I purchased this amp plus your outstanding review._

 

Right. It's also because the shipping cost and parts price increased.


----------



## coolfungadget

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Frank I* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I pulled the plug and ordered the Matrix from Coolfungadget this morning, I ordered it in black and Jeffrey emailed me last night that it would ship Monday. Looking forward to getting the amp._

 

Already shipped.

 I still have about 30 units in stock.


----------



## techenvy

know how this unit compares to headroom desktop amp or a meier corda contate?

 super awesome tier 1 review by the way


----------



## TheShaman

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *coolfungadget* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I still have about 30 units in stock._

 

Any silver ones amongst them?


----------



## Frank I

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *coolfungadget* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Already shipped.

 I still have about 30 units in stock._

 

Great. Please email me the tracking number. It would be appreciated and thanks.


----------



## gregvet

Just for interest, I ordered one of these units from Hlly audio before reading this thread all the way through. I too got an email saying that there would be a delay due to a new version becoming available in a couple of weeks.
 I elected to continue with the order, but asked what changes were being made, here was his response:

 Hello:

 The new version have better feature, the circiut has been adjust and has good sounds!
 Hope you will like it!

 Regards

 david gao

 I then asked him specifically about the suggestions in this thread regarding the authenticity of his units. Here was his response to that:

 We are one of the reseller for Matrix audio, so the Matrix M-Stage headphone amplifier is from Matrix audio directly, we are HLLY audio, we also have our own products such as a HLLY DMK-IV DAC, TAMP-90, TAMP-20 and so on

 I would like to point out that I have no affiliation with Hlly audio, and have never bought anything from them before. So far however I have had very prompt response to my queries via email and have no cause for concern.

 I am not trying to take anything away from Coolfungadget, he clearly deserves his good reputation. I will post my impressions of the unit when it arrives from Hlly just for interests sake if thats ok with everyone!


----------



## Frank I

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gregvet* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just for interest, I ordered one of these units from Hlly audio before reading this thread all the way through. I too got an email saying that there would be a delay due to a new version becoming available in a couple of weeks.
 I elected to continue with the order, but asked what changes were being made, here was his response:

 Hello:

 The new version have better feature, the circiut has been adjust and has good sounds!
 Hope you will like it!

 Regards

 david gao

 I then asked him specifically about the suggestions in this thread regarding the authenticity of his units. Here was his response to that:

 We are one of the reseller for Matrix audio, so the Matrix M-Stage headphone amplifier is from Matrix audio directly, we are HLLY audio, we also have our own products such as a HLLY DMK-IV DAC, TAMP-90, TAMP-20 and so on

 I would like to point out that I have no affiliation with Hlly audio, and have never bought anything from them before. So far however I have had very prompt response to my queries via email and have no cause for concern.

 I am not trying to take anything away from Coolfungadget, he clearly deserves his good reputation. I will post my impressions of the unit when it arrives from Hlly just for interests sake if thats ok with everyone!_

 

I have never ordered from Hlly and I hope you have no problems. He also states he was an authorized seller for Little Dot and then he made the same amp. Coolfungadget hasn't addresed if a new model is coming out yet. Please do post your impressions and hopefully your transaction goes smoothly. Keep us posted.


----------



## SPACEACE

I didn't see where Coolfungadget said anything about an upgrade,? unless I missed it?
 Maybe USB add on? I know it's based on the Cube and I think one of their best sellers is the USB version. It makes perfect sense IMO. 
 The amp needs no change as it's right on and a hell of a decent buy besting a lot of amps in the same price range and even higher. I'd like to see Toslink added personally being a Mac user there's not many DACs with just Usb and or Toslink without being one of the whole amp/dac combo things. What maybe only a handfull of just a Dac with out an Amp that has Toslink?


----------



## buz

Coolfungadget did not say that - hlly did. To be honest, I would be slightly pissed if there was a USB version around the corner (it would make perfect sense though) having just ordered the normal one...


----------



## coolfungadget

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *TheShaman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Any silver ones amongst them? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Sure


----------



## Frank I

Mine is with EMS and dispatched. Quick shipment as promised. Should have it hopefuuly next week.


----------



## nsx_23

Has anyone heard this and a real Lehmann Linear?

 I've heard the Lehmann, but still wonder just how much does this sound like the real thing.


----------



## lescanard

Alright - arrived today - great shipping! Left China EMS on Friday, arrived in NY City yesterday morning, at my door in Buffalo this morning. That's fast!

 What a nice, solidly built unit. I've hooked it up to listen to my k701s tonight and it really provides a wonderful and dynamic first impression to me out of the box. It makes me really appreciate these phones...it's why I bought this in the first place.

 I only have a Little Dot I+ (and MKIII previously) to compare it against and this is my first real SS amp - therefore I have no baseline against other similar amps. The default low gain 0dB just didn't have the juice so a quick and easy switch to 10dB finds me the right spot. I can really appreciate the ease of this - with my LDI+ I have to remove the case and fiddle with tiny little jumpers to change from a gain of 3 to 10 so this is a nice treat for me. This thing is dead, black silent when the tunes aren't flowing - I love that. I'm all in!


----------



## Frank I

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lescanard* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Alright - arrived today - great shipping! Left China EMS on Friday, arrived in NY City yesterday morning, at my door in Buffalo this morning. That's fast!

 What a nice, solidly built unit. I've hooked it up to listen to my k701s tonight and it really provides a wonderful and dynamic first impression to me out of the box. It makes me really appreciate these phones...it's why I bought this in the first place.

 I only have a Little Dot I+ (and MKIII previously) to compare it against and this is my first real SS amp - therefore I have no baseline against other similar amps. The default low gain 0dB just didn't have the juice so a quick and easy switch to 10dB finds me the right spot. I can really appreciate the ease of this - with my LDI+ I have to remove the case and fiddle with tiny little jumpers to change from a gain of 3 to 10 so this is a nice treat for me. This thing is dead, black silent when the tunes aren't flowing - I love that. I'm all in!_

 

Great hopefully I will get mine as quickly. Mine is showing as being despatched by EMS 4/27. I was hoping for Friday but Monday may be more realistic. I also have 701 and am anxious. Keep us posted.


----------



## lescanard

I've spent a couple of days with my new M-Stage - mostly paired with my k701s and listening to a variety of different music (Alt Rock, Vocals, Acoustics, Blues). So far, at the risk of the placebo effect of falling in love with new gear, I am incredibly impressed. Specific to my k701s - I really have never heard them sound even close to this good - by a wide margin. I only have ever heard them out of my LDI+ and MKIII (sold) and although I have no negative comments on these amps (and plan on keeping the LD I+ for a long time) - It's obvious to me that they were just never able to bring out the best in these awesome phones. 

 The vast soundstage and incredibly detailed presentation from the k701s is really apparent to me - a night and day difference I think. This is the the amp I decided on when looking for a great SS match for the AKGs (I considered the Sheer Audio, GLite, Heed Canamp, etc.). I obviously have no comments on those other amps and am sure they are great - I have never heard them. I can only tell you the M-Stage and k701s really seem to be a fantastic match for me.

 I briefly tried the k271s (an outstanding/under-rated phone IMO) and felt it sounded fantastic as well. A notch or 2 below the k701s but I expect that. I only listened to my D2000s for a short while with the M-Stage. It sounds great but didn't blow me away the way the k701s did - however I plan on doing a more intensive comparison between the M-Stage and the LD I+ with the Denons. Plus - whenever I pop the Denons on my head after listening to my AKGs for an extended period of time I need a bit of an adjustment period before they grab me again. I'll reserve judgement on those cans for now.

 Great power while being dead silent - it absolutely reveals every minute detail in my source (which can be good or bad depending on what you have feeding this little beast). What a great addition to my set-up - just a superb value for the price. I'm very pleased I made this choice!


----------



## Frank I

Thats great news with the 701. Since I own the Little Dot Mk11 and now I am very anxious to get my amp. LOL EMS had mine leaving on 4/27 and USPS has the same info but no updated info is available since the 27th. Wondering if the amp is in the US yet but who know. I expect it sometime early next week and am looking forward to the 701 840 combo and glad your enjoying the amps so much now I am antsy.Thanks for posting


----------



## techenvy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lescanard* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've spent a couple of days with my new M-Stage - mostly paired with my k701s and listening to a variety of different music (Alt Rock, Vocals, Acoustics, Blues). So far, at the risk of the placebo effect of falling in love with new gear, I am incredibly impressed. Specific to my k701s - I really have never heard them sound even close to this good - by a wide margin. I only have ever heard them out of my LDI+ and MKIII (sold) and although I have no negative comments on these amps (and plan on keeping the LD I+ for a long time) - It's obvious to me that they were just never able to bring out the best in these awesome phones. 

 The vast soundstage and incredibly detailed presentation from the k701s is really apparent to me - a night and day difference I think. This is the the amp I decided on when looking for a great SS match for the AKGs (I considered the Sheer Audio, GLite, Heed Canamp, etc.). I obviously have no comments on those other amps and am sure they are great - I have never heard them. I can only tell you the M-Stage and k701s really seem to be a fantastic match for me.

 I briefly tried the k271s (an outstanding/under-rated phone IMO) and felt it sounded fantastic as well. A notch or 2 below the k701s but I expect that. I only listened to my D2000s for a short while with the M-Stage. It sounds great but didn't blow me away the way the k701s did - however I plan on doing a more intensive comparison between the M-Stage and the LD I+ with the Denons. Plus - whenever I pop the Denons on my head after listening to my AKGs for an extended period of time I need a bit of an adjustment period before they grab me again. I'll reserve judgement on those cans for now.

 Great power while being dead silent - it absolutely reveals every minute detail in my source (which can be good or bad depending on what you have feeding this little beast). What a great addition to my set-up - just a superb value for the price. I'm very pleased I made this choice!_

 

nice impression, keep it coming, i was sold on this amp the moment i read this awesome tier 1 review! i am awaiting the matrix and shall soon be apart of the club. i will reporting its synergy with the denon 7000, westone and triplefi, hopefully ill have a similar impression that u did.

 im very curious, have you tried any iem's on it yet? iwas hoping that gain switch would be good for the iem

 cheers


----------



## Frank I

My amp is with USPS in New york it arrived. Hopefully get it tommorow but will have no later than Monday. Fast I am like a little kid waiting to go to the ice cream store.


----------



## lescanard

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *techenvy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_im very curious, have you tried any iem's on it yet? iwas hoping that gain switch would be good for the iem

 cheers_

 

I never listened to IEMs on an amp (I may this week just to do it). The gain switch is a really nice benefit and very convenient. Ironically, I was considering the Sheer Audio Dynalo earlier - but it comes with a set gain (your choice), I found it a bit limiting not having a variable gain - particularly having to decide without hearing it. I read on that thread now some people seem to have a mis-match and have to try and find a fix.

 When the M-Stage arrived - I tried the 0 default gain but it just didn't have the juice - I cranked it up full volume and it wasn't enough. A quick and easy switch to 10 fixed that - what a great feature. Outstanding amp - you'll love it - let us know how it works with your gear!


----------



## lescanard

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Frank I* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My amp is with USPS in New york it arrived. Hopefully get it tommorow but will have no later than Monday. Fast I am like a little kid waiting to go to the ice cream store._

 

Within your reach...the good news is it only took 1 day to get across the state for me so you should see it tomorrow! Enjoy.


----------



## Frank I

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lescanard* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Within your reach...the good news is it only took 1 day to get across the state for me so you should see it tomorrow! Enjoy._

 

Arrived today. Six Days from order. Very happy with the quick service. I set gain to 10 and am listening with the 701. Out of box very clear and has some power. Power cord it came with is too short. Also smaller than it appears in the picture's. Overall early sound is good and will benefit from about 100 hrs or so of burn in.


----------



## buz

Damned, mine is still stuck somewhere in Asia I presume... Either the vulcano is screwing Europe or I am in bad luck


----------



## Frank I

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *buz* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Damned, mine is still stuck somewhere in Asia I presume... Either the vulcano is screwing Europe or I am in bad luck_

 

LOL Can't you track it. Run the tracking number through EMS.


----------



## buz

That's why I assume it is stuck in Asia, says it left the dispatch center in Shanghai on the 24th but no update since. In fairness, the whole tracking business is a little random. I've more than once received packages before they were even shipped according to tracking data.


----------



## Frank I

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *buz* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's why I assume it is stuck in Asia, says it left the dispatch center in Shanghai on the 24th but no update since. In fairness, the whole tracking business is a little random. I've more than once received packages before they were even shipped according to tracking data._

 

If it left and said dispatched its gone from China. USPS picked up EMS tracking number and was spot on. I am not sure how European delivery works but I would thing you will get it shortly.


----------



## techenvy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *buz* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Damned, mine is still stuck somewhere in Asia I presume... Either the vulcano is screwing Europe or I am in bad luck_

 

lol, cant wait to hear your impression



 That's why I assume it is stuck in Asia, says it left the dispatch center in Shanghai on the 24th but no update since. In fairness, the whole tracking business is a little random. I've more than once received packages before they were even shipped according to tracking data. 


 apparently there is some big 2010 expo in shanghai right now and it is a holiday so shipping is taking longer for everything. fyi


----------



## jesse1919

Got my Matrix a few weeks ago. I'm very happy with it. Setup: computer coax SPDIF > Outlaw 950 > HD600. They sound a bit thinner in the bass but that's only because they're much tighter and controlled. Acoustic drums sound more natural. I was really impressed with the improvement in electric guitars. Very revealing.


----------



## Frank I

Listened yesterday for about 5-6 hours. Very powerful amp for the size/. I want to put more hour before I post my impression. Its detailed and transparent. It drive the 701 easily. I still like burning in and go through about 100 hrs before really seeing what this amp is all about.


----------



## buz

Has anyone tried to roll opamps already? Any recommendations?


----------



## Frank I

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *buz* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Has anyone tried to roll opamps already? Any recommendations?_

 

LOL the stock one isn't even burned in yet. I want to make sure this is a keeper before I do any op amp rolling.


----------



## Frank I

I spent about 8 hrs yesterday listening. I used mostly female vocals yesterday such as Susan Boyle,Joni Mitchell, Holly Cole and Patricia Barber all on the 701. The amp benefits from warm up as it sounded best late yesterday. Ver fast nice detail and good bass. It is driving the 701 as it appears it was matched well for the K701. It has nice power and is very transparent. Today I want to open it up and see the parts are as advertised. I will post my review and compare it to the Little Dot MK11 with upgraded tubes which cost the same with the 80.00 tubes I am using. Early impressions on the two amps is that the Matrix does not stomp the Little Dot. Different presentations but the little Dot is holding up very well.


----------



## burgunder

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Frank I* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I spent about 8 hrs yesterday listening. I used mostly female vocals yesterday such as Susan Boyle,Joni Mitchell, Holly Cole and Patricia Barber all on the 701. The amp benefits from warm up as it sounded best late yesterday. Ver fast nice detail and good bass. It is driving the 701 as it appears it was matched well for the K701. It has nice power and is very transparent. Today I want to open it up and see the parts are as advertised. I will post my review and compare it to the Little Dot MK11 with upgraded tubes which cost the same with the 80.00 tubes I am using. Early impressions on the two amps is that the Matrix does not stop the Little Dot. Different presentations but the little Dot is holding up very well._

 

Interesting findings!


----------



## SPACEACE

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Frank I* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I spent about 8 hrs yesterday listening. I used mostly female vocals yesterday such as Susan Boyle,Joni Mitchell, Holly Cole and Patricia Barber all on the 701. The amp benefits from warm up as it sounded best late yesterday. Ver fast nice detail and good bass. It is driving the 701 as it appears it was matched well for the K701. It has nice power and is very transparent. Today I want to open it up and see the parts are as advertised. I will post my review and compare it to the Little Dot MK11 with upgraded tubes which cost the same with the 80.00 tubes I am using. Early impressions on the two amps is that the Matrix does not stomp the Little Dot. Different presentations but the little Dot is holding up very well._

 

 That's almost my findings as well. I've A/B the Matrix with a few amps close in price range. And find it not a giant killer but a decent, Clean, Transparent, Well Built amp. It's is about the same as the Little Dot as far as power output.
 I'll give a better detailed write up after a few more A/Bs.
 So far I feel the amp is great but maybe a little overpriced as far as what you get for the $. Don't get me wrong, it's a nice unit but if it had maybe a Dac the $270 price would seem a better deal. With so many low cost products packed with many features it's hard to say the Matrix is a GOOD deal???
 Even A/B with the Aune with 2 744s on a Browndog I feel the Matrix isn't leaps ahead in terms of sound. And the Aune is loaded with features, Plus it's about $100 cheaper after the opamps... More to come after a longer time with the Matrix...


----------



## Frank I

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *SPACEACE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's almost my findings as well. I've A/B the Matrix with a few amps close in price range. And find it not a giant killer but a decent, Clean, Transparent, Well Built amp. It's is about the same as the Little Dot as far as power output.
 I'll give a better detailed write up after a few more A/Bs.
 So far I feel the amp is great but maybe a little overpriced as far as what you get for the $. Don't get me wrong, it's a nice unit but if it had maybe a Dac the $270 price would seem a better deal. With so many low cost products packed with many features it's hard to say the Matrix is a GOOD deal???
 Even A/B with the Aune with 2 744s on a Browndog I feel the Matrix isn't leaps ahead in terms of sound. And the Aune is loaded with features, Plus it's about $100 cheaper after the opamps... More to come after a longer time with the Matrix..._

 

Glad I am not alone. However where it does sound better than the Little Dot is playing large scale classical albums. I notice the power and it drives the 701 effortlessy. I am still early in my impressions but is a very nice amp.


----------



## buz

Isn't it a little bit disingenious to compare the Aune with opgraded opamps to the M-Stage with stock ones?


----------



## Frank I

Today I plan on using Classical mostly large scale recordings for today. Very impressed with the amp playing full scale works with the K701. Crystal clear and very dynamic. Sorting through complex recordings and it seems the sweet spot for this amp. Very dynamic with good slam.


----------



## sunneebear

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *SPACEACE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's almost my findings as well. I've A/B the Matrix with a few amps close in price range. And find it not a giant killer but a decent, Clean, Transparent, Well Built amp. It's is about the same as the Little Dot as far as power output.
 I'll give a better detailed write up after a few more A/Bs.
 So far I feel the amp is great but maybe a little overpriced as far as what you get for the $. Don't get me wrong, it's a nice unit but if it had maybe a Dac the $270 price would seem a better deal. With so many low cost products packed with many features it's hard to say the Matrix is a GOOD deal???
 Even A/B with the Aune with 2 744s on a Browndog I feel the Matrix isn't leaps ahead in terms of sound. And the Aune is loaded with features, Plus it's about $100 cheaper after the opamps... More to come after a longer time with the Matrix..._

 

Funny you would compare price like that considering the M-Stage is a clone of the LBC and at less than a third the cost.


----------



## audiofil

As good as the Aune may be, I don't think it allows you to witness the full potential of the M-stage.
 I'm quite sure you'll feel the same even with much more expensive amps. 

 Feed the M-stage with a better DAC and you'll have a change of heart.


----------



## Frank I

I will say that the amp is worth the price of admission. Listening to classical albums all day and it resolves the orchestra well. It is powerful and has ample detail. It never sounds harsh and handles some Reference Recordingd CD's and the Copland which has the Fanfare for Common men which is always a good test for a source and a amp and the Matrix delivers/.I switched it out and the Little Dot MK11 sounds very good as well but not as powerful and bass is tighter in presentation with the Matrix. It is made for K701. I wouldn't say its better than the Little Dot just different. Both amps do well but the Matrix is a better match for the 701 IMHO. When I get pat 100 hrs I will do my review. I have about 25 hrs on the amp now and haven't noticed any significant changes.


----------



## lescanard

I spent most of the weekend listening to the Matrix with my D2000s - I am very impressed with the amp - it's got great power and the detailed presentation really mates well with the Denons for me. I very much like the D2000s as a compliment/change up to my k701s. Sometimes in the past (i.e. with certain tubes) I found the lows just a tad muddy on the D2000s - not with the Matrix. The lows are chest thumping, but in a really controlled way - I don't find anything missing for me in the mids or the highs and the soundstage is beautiful. They sounded as good as I've ever heard them with the M-Stage.

 It really is a revealing unit - I listen to mostly lossless files from my MacBook to my DacMagic and I can hear significant differences in the production quality of the tracks that I can't remember noticing before - that's pretty exciting.

 As far as a comparison - I briefly A/B'd it against my LD I+ (with Mullard 8100s EF95s) and plan on doing more of that (I recently sold a MKIII so have heard that amp quite a bit as well). My initial impression was the Matrix was a pretty big step up - but I'll need to do more of that. I'm thinking that my LDI+ (with some EF91/6AM6 - Blue Glass Mullards) will eventually be able to give me a tube fix when I'm in the mood for something a little different - we'll see.


----------



## Frank I

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lescanard* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I spent most of the weekend listening to the Matrix with my D2000s - I am very impressed with the amp - it's got great power and the detailed presentation really mates well with the Denons for me. I very much like the D2000s as a compliment/change up to my k701s. Sometimes in the past (i.e. with certain tubes) I found the lows just a tad muddy on the D2000s - not with the Matrix. The lows are chest thumping, but in a really controlled way - I don't find anything missing for me in the mids or the highs and the soundstage is beautiful. They sounded as good as I've ever heard them with the M-Stage.

 It really is a revealing unit - I listen to mostly lossless files from my MacBook to my DacMagic and I can hear significant differences in the production quality of the tracks that I can't remember noticing before - that's pretty exciting.

 As far as a comparison - I briefly A/B'd it against my LD I+ (with Mullard 8100s EF95s) and plan on doing more of that (I recently sold a MKIII so have heard that amp quite a bit as well). My initial impression was the Matrix was a pretty big step up - but I'll need to do more of that. I'm thinking that my LDI+ (with some EF91/6AM6 - Blue Glass Mullards) will eventually be able to give me a tube fix when I'm in the mood for something a little different - we'll see._

 

I have done very little A/B comparision with the Little Dot MK11 with the 6H30 and Mullard 4010 but I wouldn't say IMHO the Matrix stomps it. Both cost with my upgraded tubes is identical and I like the tube sound. The MKI1 is an outstanding amp and offers a different presentation IMHO. Like both


----------



## lescanard

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Frank I* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have done very little A/B comparision with the Little Dot MK11 with the 6H30 and Mullard 4010 but I wouldn't say IMHO the Matrix stomps it. Both cost with my upgraded tubes is identical and I like the tube sound. The MKI1 is an outstanding amp and offers a different presentation IMHO. Like both_

 

Sounds like we have similar plans - I specifically wanted a nice SS amp to compliment my LD and think so far I've made a good choice. I really love the LD I+ and the tube rolling is a blast. If nothing else - I'd suggest these Chinese amps are great options (and awesome values) for many!

 I was hoping that the Matrix would help me settle in for a while and not want to constantly upgrade my setup (unless I find myself unexpectedly spending some dough on a Woo Audio amp or something stupid like that) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





! I've gotta stay off of this site.


----------



## Frank I

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lescanard* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sounds like we have similar plans - I specifically wanted a nice SS amp to compliment my LD and think so far I've made a good choice. I really love the LD I+ and the tube rolling is a blast. If nothing else - I'd suggest these Chinese amps are great options (and awesome values) for many!

 I was hoping that the Matrix would help me settle in for a while and not want to constantly upgrade my setup (unless I find myself unexpectedly spending some dough on a Woo Audio amp or something stupid like that) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




! I've gotta stay off of this site._

 

The only other amp on my sights is the DecWare. I want to use that in my main system as a preamp. But I need to sell off my vinyl rig and records first. Once I do that I wi;; buy the Decware to use with my Outlaw 2150 and sub with the Maggie MMG. Then I am done. LOL


----------



## buz

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *audiofil* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Feed the M-stage with a better DAC and you'll have a change of heart._

 

Like which one?


----------



## audiofil

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *buz* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Like which one?_

 

There are no better DACs than AUNE in this world, that made you ask ?


----------



## buz

No, genuine interest


----------



## audiofil

I don't have an Aune so I can't tell you exactly how good or bad it is compared to others.

 Common sense would indicate that most higher priced DACs would be better (at least the ones that got good feedback from people here).
 There are hundreds so take your pick.

 I can tell you from experience that the M-stage responds *very* well going from uDAC to Audinst to Gamma2 and then to Audio-gd DAC19.
 On uDAC for example I can barely tell apart my portable Mini3 from the Matrix, and that's natural.

 On DAC19 there are clearly perceivable differences starting with the interconnect cables and opamp used. I think you get my point.


----------



## buz

I'm not so sure if I want to buy the well received expensive DAC is necessarily much better argument per se.


 Futhermore, it would seem to be a little strange to match up a 500USD DAC with a 270USD amp, no?


----------



## Frank I

tried it with the Shure 840 this morning need more time but sounds fine. Now with the AKG 701 it is a beast. It was apparently designed oir voiced with the AKG in mind. No matter what I throw at it with the 701 it delivers big time sound. No effort in driving them to levels I could never listen at. Increased sound stage with good detail and great bass. If you own the 701 this is the amp to buy.


----------



## lescanard

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Frank I* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_tried it with the Shure 840 this morning need more time but sounds fine. Now with the AKG 701 it is a beast. It was apparently designed oir voiced with the AKG in mind. No matter what I throw at it with the 701 it delivers big time sound. No effort in driving them to levels I could never listen at. Increased sound stage with good detail and great bass. If you own the 701 this is the amp to buy._

 

I have to agree - it sings with the k701s. I was listening last night - and was struck by the amazing detail and soundstage in particular with the AKGs. As I was listening - I actually thought that my speaker system was on by accident - and was playing the same tunes into my living room for all to hear. I honestly thought I was hearing my outside speakers through the open k701s and quickly took them off to check because people in the house were sleeping. I've heard these phones a thousand times - just not in this way apparently.


----------



## Frank I

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lescanard* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have to agree - it sings with the k701s. I was listening last night - and was struck by the amazing detail and soundstage in particular with the AKGs. As I was listening - I actually thought that my speaker system was on by accident - and was playing the same tunes into my living room for all to hear. I honestly thought I was hearing my outside speakers through the open k701s and quickly took them off to check because people in the house were sleeping. I've heard these phones a thousand times - just not in this way apparently._

 

LOL So what do you buy next. This is a sick hobby. I seen beyerdynamic 990 cand 600Ohms selling for 229.00 from BH Photo but I better not. I think I will lay low for awhile.(yea Right)


----------



## lescanard

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Frank I* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_LOL So what do you buy next. This is a sick hobby. I seen beyerdynamic 990 cand 600Ohms selling for 229.00 from BH Photo but I better not. I think I will lay low for awhile.(yea Right)_

 

That's funny you mention that - I recently thought if I could get something "next" I'd like to try some Beyers. From here on in - anything new means something needs to go.


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





lescanard said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Frank I* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> ...


 

 I can't justify another purchase unless I sell off some gear. The Matrix appears to be burned in with only minor changes. I think they are great for the 701 and people will be satisfied. I think they are very neutral with good bass and sound stage. They are not harsh and sound musical, Really nice with Classical music. Like I said earlier only upgrade for me left is the Decware for the main system to use as a preamp.


----------



## Frank I

I am starting to notice more differences with the Matrix. In comparison to the Little Dot MK 11 there is definitely a much larger soundstage with the 701. It does not mask the orchestra and even a high levels it is effortless. In contrast the Little Dot is taxed at higher volume with less power and can become congested with large scale recordings. If you own a K701 and listen to  Classical this is the amp to get. I have not heard the Heed but I would say this amp is better than average for the money. The Little Dot is a better match for the Shure 840 and I really do need to spend more time with the 840. But with this amp it is very clear how much better the 701 is over the 840.


----------



## Nakattack

I'd love to see how the Matrix does against the LD with the 840's, it will show whether the positive reviews have to do with synergy, instead of general capability. I'd also like to see a comparison against the MkV, as the two amps are priced around the same.


----------



## Frank I

I agree with you about synergy. I will tell you that the Matrix does take the 701 to another level for me. I really need to listen more with the 840. Next week I will do comparisons with the 840 and compare both amps. I have about 50 hrs this week on the 701 and really have listened to the 701 most of the time. To be fair I need more time and then I need to spend some hours with the Little Dot to make a fair comparison. I have no regrets about this purchase and can tell you that the Matrix is a good value for money. I have never heard the V


----------



## buz

Before I screw up I thought I would ask, do I need to unpower it before switching gain?


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





buz said:


> Before I screw up I thought I would ask, do I need to unpower it before switching gain?


 

 I have changed it powered up with no issues. I use the 10 setting. I thought it sounded best. Let me know if you play with the other settings and glad it arrived.


----------



## gregvet

Just to update on the Hlly order situation detailed earlier in the thread, I have patiently waited for the new version for the two weeks I was advised. Nothing. Emailed last night to find out how long, the reply says another two weeks  I have responded let's see what happens next. I see a cancellation and order from the same eBay guy suggested in this thread. Ho hum!


----------



## buz

Frank: to be honest, the tracking tool says it is in the final depot so I should either get it today or tomorrow (or perhaps Wednesday in case nobody's home to take the parcel)


----------



## Frank I

I just want to say project86 nailed the sound of the Matrix M Stage. After 7 days with the amp at at least 8-10  hrs day listening there really isn't much more to add. This amp is a bargain. It really is the perfect match for me with my AKG 701. In comparison to the Little Dot MK11 which is an incredible bargain itself the differences between the Matrix is that the M Stage is a significant step up with the 701. It has speed dynamics and a very detailed mid range with great bass and gives the 701 the power they need. The tremble is non edgy very extended and a joy to listen to. I notice no solid state grain or hard sound. The amp is very musical and has great synergy with my setup. I want to thank Project 86 for doing an outstanding review and for opening up this amp to HeadFi. Jeffrey Tam is honest and delivers with this amp. Very Highly recommended.


----------



## buz

Now I am even more anxious to get it . Got to pick it up from the post office tomorrow.


----------



## Frank I

Spent most of the day with the Matrix and the Shure SRH 840 and I can say they are a good match. I left the setting on 10 for the gain. They are very dynamic. Played with the Denon 1001 and they were also very nice. Great synergy and looks like the Matrix will provide many hours of enjoyment with all my cans.


----------



## buz

Just unpacked mine and hooked it up. Built like a tank. Serious business.


----------



## Frank I

Did you play it yet. Post later if you get a chance and enjoy.


----------



## buz

Oh I do. What is most impressive is the control it exerts over the RX700 (which I previously had not used very often, it had too much bass even for my taste). Brings it to a wholly new level. But the amount of power in the thing is scary, I run it with 0db gain and it is easily louder than I care for with the RX700 at 9 and positively dangerous at 9:30 o clock (in fairness the line out of my NG98 is ear piercing with the RX700)


----------



## Frank I

Let me know how you like them with the Denon 2000. I thought they played fine with my 1001. I am listening now to the JVC RX900 but they are not in the same league as my AKG Shure or Denon cans. But the the hell 59.00 buck I plug them right into the PC when I want to watch You tube videos.


----------



## buz

I think the biggest thing it did for the D2000 is improving instrument separation. The Denons always had good bass control already with the NG98 but the separation is on another level now (sort of like people describe there being air around the notes and instruments). Probably all placebo but good placebo in any case 
   
   
  And of course the RX700 is not in the same league as the D2000 but after stuffing the pads and hooking them up to the M-Stage, they are mighty impressive for the price.
   
  Having said that, except for the lousy pot (which means its too loud with the D2000 when channel imbalance is fixed but potentially that's good for harder to drive cans), the NG98 is a very good deal for the money.
   
  Even so, after putting on The Wall, I am sitting here grinning like a total idiot


----------



## Frank I

I should mod the RX900 to see if they get any better. I really use my 701 more than any other can. I use the 840 at night and the 1001 with my ipod touch. The 701 are just so much better but I do like the 840 on acoustic and vocal's.


----------



## buz

Some comments on M-Stage vs IEM (all pretty quickly done in like 5 to 10 minute sessions each):
   
  Its impressive what it does to the RE0. I used to think it was seriously bass deficient, but it brings it to acceptable levels finally. It's not skull crushing amount and bass heads still won't be really satisfied about the quantity but the quality is quite good. Listening to it after the D2000 makes me realize the wall of sound even more than usually though 
   
  My beloved FX500 feels airier (haven't used it in a few days though so may be I'm hearing something that is usually there) and potentially with a wider sound stage/slightly better instrument separation than straight out of the Clip+ but all in all it is pretty easy to drive and does not seem to gain that much.
   
  For the notoriously bassy Playaz N1, it seems to reign in bass to quite sane levels (still basshead territory by any means though), mids are still slightly recessed though.
   
  And a final comment on the one can I have not yet listened tho with it: The MDR-V6 gains a little body to the bass (still not enough for my taste), more airiness but also seems very bright and fatiguing compared to the D2000. Can't say I care much for this signature.


----------



## Frank I

I think what you are seeing is a very transparent amplifier letting you hear the differences in your headphones. What I like about this amp is it is very neutral and does what is supposed to do which is amplify the signal without any signature of its own. It tell you how your gear sounds. Gets better after 50 hrs.


----------



## buz

Agreed, that is what an AMP should do. Not color the sound, for that we have equalizers (I am actually playing around with eqing the D2000 as I type this, mild sub bass boost and mid boost seem to do them some good).
   
  Mine has like 5-10 hours now, maybe I should let it run two days straight then 
   
  BTW: It has zero hiss with any of the IEMs I tried it with.
   
  Current verdict: Very nice. Definitely worth the 300 I paid all in all but if I was cash strapped, a decent sub 200USD DACAmp ike the Audinst would probably do it, too.
   
  Still drooling over those Audeze LCD2 but at 950 its not really something I buy just now. Maybe I should just stop and delete my head-fi account now


----------



## Frank I

If you really want to hear this amp at its best use a AKG 701 and a source CD?sacd player and you will be taken on a sonic whirlwind. I listened last night with the Shure 840 which I really liked. The amp is worth the money and a best buy, Glad you like it.


----------



## sergini

Usually i use a shanling ph 100 for my AKG but i have a friend make me try a sheer audio 006+ and a mk III with the AKG both of them was amazing if you compare with the shanling, so i decided to do an upgrade but witch one, my friend use his amp every day and it tell me take the sheer cause you gonna have more details and more neutral etc... but i was curious for the reply that everybody let here and i follow it everyday, and it was so interested to see the passion of everybody for the matrix, exceptionally the post of project 86 give the better publicity that i never see for an amp. So my decision goes for the matrix ( by your fault ). Couple of day of burn in later, i can say it amazing with they AKG  cause with the DB gain you got the power to drive the 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 AKG. 
   
  After two days with the AKG i said to myself what it look like with my prefered Grado. So i plug it and i put the gain at 0 db, grado don't need too much power i learn it with the sheer ( too powerfull for grado ). Amazing is not enough to explain what i heard better than the AKG  for the sound stage ( more as it place ) maybe the same  wideness but the definition that the Grado give to me here, it let pass the music without the agressivity of Grado give to the music when you drive it with a strenght amp. Usually i'm listening rock,metal,rap, jazz,classic, and today i fall on Vivaldi album with the Grado. I never heard violin in a front of me like that, so rich as it can be, so nice, so clean, i can feel the pressure of the musician  put on cord to make the violin sound louder in the space. The matrix give just what it need to Grado to speak by themself.
   
   
     So to conclude this amp is the better choice for the price cause you can drive all the headphone you have perfectly,


----------



## dcpoor

The Sheer audio ha-006 isn't  "too powerful" for grados, but the default gain is too high. If you get one with a lower gain it would be fine for sensitive headphones like grados as well.


----------



## sergini

it's true


----------



## lescanard

Quote: 





dcpoor said:


> The Sheer audio ha-006 isn't  "too powerful" for grados, but the default gain is too high. If you get one with a lower gain it would be fine for sensitive headphones like grados as well.


 

 I'm not sure that's the point. I strongly considered the Sheer Audio, finally decided on the Matrix. My opinion is the Matrix is an amazing amp IMO, I've of course never heard the Sheer and suspect it's fantastic as well. My problem with it is it's missing adjustable gain...I would have had to have ordered a 3 gain on the Sheer with my phones and in the event I ever decided to buy a Beyer DT880 600ohm down the road (which I may), I would have been disappointed and probably had to buy another amp for those phones. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm reading on the Sheer thread about having to solder stuff to change gain...I just don't have the capability.


----------



## Pariah1

Very seriously thinking of trying one of these.
   
  I currently have an Head Direct EF-1, and it is nice sounding amp.
   
  But I bought it for my Grado 225i's and then I got the AKG 702's which I prefer overall more. But it just seems the 702's want more power, so I'd like to go all SS and try an amp like this with them, and see if my EF-1 really isn't driving them as well as I suspect they can be.
   
  It would be nice to have an adjustable gain so my 225i's as well as my 702's will sound great off of one amp, as well as any cans I might get in the future.
   
  (Thanks to Frank I for bringing my attention to this amp over in the Heed thread; something tells me the Heed is over hyped and too colored).


----------



## buz

Loving this more and more (I don't think the sound changed much at all though) - I think amp wise, I really am covered now 
   
  Isn't the EF1 supposed to deliver oodles of power and actually able to drive the notorious HE5 properly?
   
  Just listening to Prodigy's Their Law. Always impressive, but even more impressive with the speed the M-Stage pushes it towards you. I also feel it is really transparent (wire with gain if you want), does not seem to color any of the sources I throw at it (right now using the Clip to feed it )


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





pariah1 said:


> Very seriously thinking of trying one of these.
> 
> I currently have an Head Direct EF-1, and it is nice sounding amp.
> 
> ...


 

 Your welcome as you can see there hasn't been one negative mentioned on thhe Matrix and it is IMHO everything I need to power the 701 and anything else I throw at it. The gain switches are a plus and easy. The amp in my two weeks was more than expected. Very satisfied


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





buz said:


> Loving this more and more (I don't think the sound changed much at all though) - I think amp wise, I really am covered now
> 
> Isn't the EF1 supposed to deliver oodles of power and actually able to drive the notorious HE5 properly?
> 
> Just listening to Prodigy's Their Law. Always impressive, but even more impressive with the speed the M-Stage pushes it towards you. I also feel it is really transparent (wire with gain if you want), does not seem to color any of the sources I throw at it (right now using the Clip to feed it )


 

 I agree that the sound did not change much and I have over 150 hrs on it. It opened  up slightly. Now I am thinking of getting the AT 1000X as another can. Been busy selling off some vinyl to fund next purchase.


----------



## buz

Hehe, looking at a K701 myself but I'm afraid it would be too bass light


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





buz said:


> Hehe, looking at a K701 myself but I'm afraid it would be too bass light


 

 People say that but I will tell you no way is it bass light. Playing the patricia barber Companion which has the best acoustic bass I ever heard recorded and with the matrix and the 701 the bass notes are all defined and you can clearly hear the drum set and inner bongo sound verly clearly. The bass on the 701is both accurate and deep not tipped  or boosted its the way it sounds live.


----------



## lescanard

Quote: 





buz said:


> Hehe, looking at a K701 myself but I'm afraid it would be too bass light


 

 I very much enjoy the bass from my D2000s (which many think is too much) - however I can honestly say that the k701s have outstanding bass presentation even in comparison. There's no doubt that the Denons and AKGs are different in that area - however I really like the contrast. That's obviously just my opinion - but the bass in my k701s (esp. when driven from the M-Stage) is so spot on for me. Perhaps if you crave/need that bass thumping sound all the time it may not appeal to you - but I don't find them light at all. Plus they really shine with this amp! Just my 2 cents.


----------



## lescanard

I'm interested if anyone has (or considered) rolling in some different op-amps into the M-Stage. I haven't even cracked it open - but have a accumulated a few for my LD I+ (LT1364, LM4562, OPA2107). I'm not sure if there is a list or someone knows op-amps that may be compatible (or not)? I'm not even sure if I need to do this - but you know how it goes always wanting to tweak. Any thoughts?


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





lescanard said:


> I'm interested if anyone has (or considered) rolling in some different op-amps into the M-Stage. I haven't even cracked it open - but have a accumulated a few for my LD I+ (LT1364, LM4562, OPA2107). I'm not sure if there is a list or someone knows op-amps that may be compatible (or not)? I'm not even sure if I need to do this - but you know how it goes always wanting to tweak. Any thoughts?


 

 The is a huge op-amp thread posted on head Fi. I like the sound of it now and don't know how much better it can get but it may interesting.


----------



## spookygonk

Hm, thinking about one of these amps or a Little Dot MkV (or the cheaper Audio-GD Sparrow) for my first desktop SS amp. I have Senn HD580/600 & AKG K701 headphones. The M-Stage reads to handle these HP very well.
   
*edit *The Matrix Mini-i is only £40 more expensive than the M-Stage. Is it a better choice being an amp & dac rather than just the amp of the M-Stage?


----------



## Pariah1

Quote: 





buz said:


> Isn't the EF1 supposed to deliver oodles of power and actually able to drive the notorious HE5 properly?


 

 That's the EF-5 I think, the successor to the EF-1.
   
  I really should compare the specs of the EF-1 to this and other amps I'm considering, to see if they are really more powerful or not.

  
  Quote: 





frank i said:


> Your welcome as you can see there hasn't been one negative mentioned on thhe Matrix and it is IMHO everything I need to power the 701 and anything else I throw at it. The gain switches are a plus and easy. The amp in my two weeks was more than expected. Very satisfied


 

 I actually haven't read all through this thread yet (but I plan to shortly). One reason I'm tempted to get it is because it's cheap enough that if for some reason I didn't like it or it didn't seem much more powerful than my EF-1, I could resell it. Or I could resell my EF-1 and get most of the money back I spent on the Matrix.

  
  Quote: 





buz said:


> Hehe, looking at a K701 myself but I'm afraid it would be too bass light


 

 No way, as others have said. It has very deep and powerful bass when called for, so much so in fact that there have been numerous times I thought that I had my sub on even though I knew I didn't. It just doesn't have bloated, muddy low mid range posing as bass as some people seem to like. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 The bass it has is very articulate and textured as well, and tight/taut. Love it, perfect for me.

  
  Quote: 





spookygonk said:


> Hm, thinking about one of these amps or a Little Dot MkV (or the cheaper Audio-GD Sparrow) for my first desktop SS amp. I have Senn HD580/600 & AKG K701 headphones. The M-Stage reads to handle these HP very well.


 

 I don't think you could go wrong with any of those really. IMO almost any amp compared to no amp will be a plus, and one of quality like those will be more like a revelation.


----------



## sLaYDeMOn

d7000's


----------



## sLaYDeMOn

anyone use the m-stage with the d7000's?


----------



## Frank I

I was wondering id they would drive the Planar Head Direct. I am down to three can for upgrade and love Planars. Any opinioons as i am looking at the Denon d7000,ATW1000X and the new Head Direct.


----------



## buz

Yeah I would like to hear about that as well. Seems like quiet a varied list you got there, though


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





buz said:


> Yeah I would like to hear about that as well. Seems like quiet a varied list you got there, though


 

 I really like the Planar sound as I have Magneplanar MMG in my main system and they are phenomenal, Waiting on the Can Jam comments. I narrowed it to the Denon AHD7000 and The Head Direct. I will buy one or the other. If the Matrix can drive the Planar and I believe it can thats probably going to be the best option for me. Nice warranty and a 30 day trial from Head Direct make it very attractive.


----------



## buz

Aude'ze LCD2 would be neat but 950USD plus s&h is too much


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





buz said:


> Aude'ze LCD2 would be neat but 950USD plus s&h is too much


 

 I started out with 600.00 in mind I am already over budget. I would have to sell more vinyl for that. LOL  I am getting rid of all my vinyl and have many more out of print Mobile Fidelity and Direct disc plus a turntable to sell. I simply dont play records anymore.


----------



## buz

Quote: 





lescanard said:


> I'm interested if anyone has (or considered) rolling in some different op-amps into the M-Stage. I haven't even cracked it open - but have a accumulated a few for my LD I+ (LT1364, LM4562, OPA2107). I'm not sure if there is a list or someone knows op-amps that may be compatible (or not)? I'm not even sure if I need to do this - but you know how it goes always wanting to tweak. Any thoughts?


 

 Yeah I am wondering about that, I currently have a LT1028C in my DAC and another one in the unused DAC headphone out... I also have an AD797BR on order and that is what I will likely stick into the DAC and then probably try LT1028 (two LT1028 in row is a bit lets say dark to me) in the M-Stage...


----------



## Frank I

Well guys I found out the Matrix  according to Head Direct wont have enough power for the new HE5 LE planars. I ordered the Denon AHD7000 and will have them tomorrow and will let everyone know how they sound with the Matrix.


----------



## JulioCat2

I'm using a Audio GD Sun opa in my M-Stage and it's much better than the original Opa, better definition and soundstage, i have to use and extension but works very good.


----------



## komebudu

It seems this thread is for K70x lovers seeking for good and powerful amp, yet not burn a hole in your wallet...   I'm one of them...  
   
  Thank you everyone...


----------



## Pariah1

Quote: 





komebudu said:


> It seems this thread is for K70x lovers seeking for good and powerful amp, yet not burn a hole in your wallet...   I'm one of them...
> 
> Thank you everyone...


 

 That's what it seems...
   
  I'm taking my time still...it's not like my EF-1 amp sounds bad at all, so I haven't gotten around to really studying my amp options and picking one. Maybe in a month or so...but that's what I've been saying ever since I got the 702's a few months back lol.

  
  Quote: 





frank i said:


> Well guys I found out the Matrix  according to Head Direct wont have enough power for the new HE5 LE planars. I ordered the Denon AHD7000 and will have them tomorrow and will let everyone know how they sound with the Matrix.


 

 I'm sure the 7000's will be great. I was thinking about the 2000's for awhile but ultimately went with the Grado 225i's and then after that the 702's. Maybe they are next? Or maybe not, I'm happy with both of my cans for now.
   
   
  So you can switch opamps on the Matrix pretty easily? Or do you have to solder?


----------



## Frank I

Using the Matrix with the AHD7000 now and they are a good match. Need hours to make comments on the Denon.


----------



## lescanard

Quote: 





komebudu said:


> It seems this thread is for K70x lovers seeking for good and powerful amp, yet not burn a hole in your wallet...   I'm one of them...
> 
> Thank you everyone...


 
   
  Although I really love the M-Stage with my k701s, the original post reviewed it (very favorably) with tons of different gear - that was really one of the many reasons I pulled the trigger.
   
  I think maybe that many k701 owners probably rank it as one of the top phones in their collection so the impressive match between the 2 makes a lot of us crow about the amp since we love our k701s. That being said - it is delightful with my D2000s - and at the request of a head-fier in another thread I've been listening to the Matrix with my beloved k271 MKIIs the last couple of days - what a treat.  If you appreciate these awesome and under-rated phones - you know what incredibly detailed and beautiful mids they give you, and although they may not have "as amazing" 3D-like soundstage as the 701s - I'm not sure there is a closed phone out there it's equal in that area. The M-Stage really gives the k271s a whole new level of bass - deep and powerful but controlled. I'm very impressed.
   
  My only negative to this point is that my Little Dot I+ Hybrid (and the approximately 35+ tubes I've accumulated with it) has just been sitting there staring at me - lonely as can be. I'm just not sure I'll be using it too much anymore - the M-Stage performs brilliantly with all of my phones!


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





lescanard said:


> Although I really love the M-Stage with my k701s, the original post reviewed it (very favorably) with tons of different gear - that was really one of the many reasons I pulled the trigger.
> 
> I think maybe that many k701 owners probably rank it as one of the top phones in their collection so the impressive match between the 2 makes a lot of us crow about the amp since we love our k701s. That being said - it is delightful with my D2000s - and at the request of a head-fier in another thread I've been listening to the Matrix with my beloved k271 MKIIs the last couple of days - what a treat.  If you appreciate these awesome and under-rated phones - you know what incredibly detailed and beautiful mids they give you, and although they may not have "as amazing" 3D-like soundstage as the 701s - I'm not sure there is a closed phone out there it's equal in that area. The M-Stage really gives the k271s a whole new level of bass - deep and powerful but controlled. I'm very impressed.
> 
> My only negative to this point is that my Little Dot I+ Hybrid (and the approximately 35+ tubes I've accumulated with it) has just been sitting there staring at me - lonely as can be. I'm just not sure I'll be using it too much anymore - the M-Stage performs brilliantly with all of my phones!


 

 I just got the Denon AHD7000 and am listening with the matrix but I alsi tried them with my MK11 and the 7000, Denons also good match but I really need hours on them to see if they are worth the money. Using no gain o setting with the Denons.


----------



## lescanard

Quote: 





frank i said:


> I just got the Denon AHD7000 and am listening with the matrix but I alsi tried them with my MK11 and the 7000, Denons also good match but I really need hours on them to see if they are worth the money. Using no gain o setting with the Denons.


 

 DAYUM...want the D7000s someday. If the Matrix sounds as good as I think with my D2000s - I'll bet the D7000s sing with this little beast. Enjoy.


----------



## komebudu

Lescanard,
   
  Parles-tu français..? 
   
  By the way, just for my curiosity..  how does it sound with SR60?


----------



## buz

Same here, even with zero gain, I listen to the D2000 with very little headroom (footspace?) to go lower in volume... On the upside, the pot tracks perfectly even there.


----------



## lescanard

Quote: 





komebudu said:


> Lescanard,
> 
> Parles-tu français..?
> 
> By the way, just for my curiosity..  how does it sound with SR60?


 

 Haha...no I don't (long story on the handle). I haven't tried the sr60 with the Matrix - I mainly use it with my ipod - un-amp'd. I'll give it a roll at some point but don't really think it needs amping to sound great.


----------



## Frank I

Just back from head Flier Bako place. Ross was kind enough to spend over 2 and half hours letting me listening to the HE5_LE on the Matrix and on the Gilmore lIte he has. The good news is the Matrix powered the He5 with no problem and most listing was done under 12. Very powerful and very nice cans. I liked them very much. Very refined with great bass and nice sound stage. More than likely will burn the Deon 7000 in and then make a decision. The Planars are a winner.


----------



## buz

Can you compare Denon vs HE5-LE bass?


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





buz said:


> Can you compare Denon vs HE5-LE bass?


 
  The Denon has much better bass IMO the HE5LE is better than the AKG701 bass but I dont know if there is another can that will compete with the 7000. Still burning in and I wont compare the 7000 until it is fully burned in. The Planar are very nice cans that I liked very much


----------



## audiofil

Any thoughts on M-Stage compared to G-lite?


----------



## Frank I

Much better bass than the G-lite. More powerful. The Gilmore has a smooth presentation. It was a nice amp.


----------



## vnguyen33

I am interested in your thoughts on your new Denon D7000 headphone after you have more time listening to the headphone. Thanks.


----------



## SP Wild

As an owner of a BCL, it is flattering that the Matrix can be rated so highly, as I have no other SS headphone amp and if the Matrix is as good as the BCL than I am pleased with the BCL.  The matrix sounds like an amp that everyone should own as my experience with the BCL is that it drives EVERYTHING.  I enjoy my K701, D7000 and HD650 out of the BCL.
   
  Just one thing in the back of my mind.  The Matrix is not an absolute clone of the BCL as the BCL does not have any op-amps whatsoever.  It is a fully discreet design with zero negative feedback, the Matrix must be inspired by the design of the BCL.  Nevertheless for it to be rated so highly at the entry level pricing is stupendous value no less.


----------



## sunneebear

Quote: 





sp wild said:


> As an owner of a BCL, it is flattering that the Matrix can be rated so highly, as I have no other SS headphone amp and if the Matrix is as good as the BCL than I am pleased with the BCL.  The matrix sounds like an amp that everyone should own as my experience with the BCL is that it drives EVERYTHING.  I enjoy my K701, D7000 and HD650 out of the BCL.
> 
> Just one thing in the back of my mind.  The Matrix is not an absolute clone of the BCL as the _*BCL does not have any op-amps whatsoever*_.  It is a fully discreet design with zero negative feedback, the Matrix must be inspired by the design of the BCL.  Nevertheless for it to be rated so highly at the entry level pricing is stupendous value no less.


 

 All the online internal pictures of the BCL shows that it has a opamp sitting in the exact same spot as the Matrix.


----------



## niranhopper

here is my comparision of the matrix with the Lavry headphone out. I tried both with my HD600 and they were very close and i couldnt tell which one was better. But when i drove my K1000, i prefered the Lavry cause it felt cleaner.


----------



## Pariah1

Just to be clear, the BCL is the Lehmann Audio Black Cube Linear the Matrix says it sounds "just like"?
   
  Edit: Duh, yes it is, finally read through the whole review.
   
  Well this looks like a great match for my 702's and other potential future cans. Also considering the Sheer Audio Dynalo HA-006+ and Kicas Caliente and a few others, but none seem to look as promising as this, especially based on the BCL reviews I've read.


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





sunneebear said:


> All the online internal pictures of the BCL shows that it has a opamp sitting in the exact same spot as the Matrix.


 
   
  What does this op-amp do?  I bought the BCL because of its supposed "discreet output stage" which I presumed meant no IC Op-amps? Perhaps the op-amp on the BCL can also be rolled to change sound signatures?


----------



## audiofil

Quote: 





sp wild said:


> What does this op-amp do?  I bought the BCL because of its supposed "discreet output stage" which I presumed meant no IC Op-amps? Perhaps the op-amp on the BCL can also be rolled to change sound signatures?


 
   
  The way I see it BCL and M-Stage are designed as a two stage amplifier:
  - the opamp's does the voltage amplification
  - the transistors do the power amplification, buffering the output of the opamp
   
  Swapping the opamp can be a tad difficult in the BCL because you need to desolder the original one and install a socket.


----------



## Pariah1

I think I'm going with the M-Stage. I can't get over the price, user gain switching and opamp rolling, synergy it has with the 702's and overall compatibility it is supposed to have with several cans.
   
  This will also leave me enough money to look for a decent ($200ish) closed can.


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





pariah1 said:


> I think I'm going with the M-Stage. I can't get over the price, user gain switching and opamp rolling, synergy it has with the 702's and overall compatibility it is supposed to have with several cans.
> 
> This will also leave me enough money to look for a decent ($200ish) closed can.


 

 LOL When you hear it you will know what a value it is. For very little money and built using all high quality parts and casing it is so good. I have been using the Denon AHD7000 since Tuesday no grain and amazing detail, This amp can be used with any cans. It made my 701 a new can. Love it. Have fun


----------



## Pariah1

Thanks Frank and thanks again for steering me towards this amp! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  I don't think I would of gotten the Heed, but I might of totally overlooked this amp otherwise. Of course I'm sure some other amps I looked at are great as well, but not perhaps such a good match for me with so many features/options like this one.
   
  I have to wait for funds to be added to my Paypal account, but once they are it's ordered!
   
  If it sounds better, stronger, than my current EF-1 amp then I'll be happy, and I bet it will.
   
  How do you like your 1001's or 840's with it? I'm looking for some closed cans under and around $200-ish. Also looking at the AKG K 271 MK II that lescanard likes so much with this amp as well as several others.


----------



## jonathanb715

I recently bought one of these when my living situation changed (divorce, moving to an older apartment building with thin walls, etc.).  As a result, I have been selling off all my old stereo stuff (and it was some pretty nice stuff).  Turntable, integrated amp and speakers are all gone, along with a 1,000+ record collection.  Could I be happy just using headphones?
   
  I've been using headphones for a while.  My integrated was a Portal Audio Panache, with a very good built in headphone section.  This integrated convinced me that I no longer needed my old MF X-Cans - the Panache just sounded better with both HD580's and DT880's.
   
  I sold the Panache prior to buying the M-Stage, so I can only compare these from memory, but the M-Stage excels at something the Panache was never good at - the kind of deep, dark, silent background that I find pretty important with headphones, but not so much with speakers.  The Panache always had some low level hum, even with a balanced power transformer feeding it juice.  This hum was 10x worse if I ever hooked up anything connected to my video system.  The ground loop hum with the video components was beyond annoying, so I never used this integrated to watch movies or TV.
   
  The Matrix seems dead quiet, even with the volume cranked way over to the top of it's travel.  And that's being fed by my DVD player or by my cable box! Ground loops and hum just don't seem to be an issue with this amp.  I've not played with the gain controls yet - I get plenty of gain with either set of cans for my relatively low listening levels with the gain controls set to their lowest setting.  I'll be curious to see if there's any audible difference using higher gain, but then padding it down with the volume control.
   
  Otherwise, the Matrix seems to sound very similar to my memory (I sold it a month ago) of the Panache.  I really don't feel like either headphone sounds dramatically different than what I'm used to hearing, and I don't trust my memory enough to think I can describe subtle differences from memory.  Sorry!
   
  However, given the almost $1,800 price the Panache sold for (admittedly, it was also a very good integrated amp), the $250 Matrix seems like a bargain.  I'm glad I bought it!  And yes, I think I'll get by just fine with a simple headphone system.
   
  JB


----------



## komebudu

Err..  The new version that mentionned by 'someone'..  is it the same version as BCL with USB DAC..?
http://www.avhub.com.au/ProductReview.aspx?MagazineID=5&ProductReviewID=218


----------



## Balmoral

Just pulled the trigger and ordered mine.  I considered the Sheer Audio dynalo and the M^3 first, but after reading the reviews here and the price difference I was swayed.  I think I'm going to see a pretty big quality difference from my mini3 that I'm using now.  I can't wait! =)


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





pariah1 said:


> Thanks Frank and thanks again for steering me towards this amp!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  It soind good with both the 1001 and the 840. The 840 is much better than the 1001. I tried both on the Matrix and both would bw good. If you shop Amazon you can get the 840 for 130.00 and the 2002 for under 100. If you can swing the 840 I would go that way.


----------



## Pariah1

Quote: 





frank i said:


> It soind good with both the 1001 and the 840. The 840 is much better than the 1001. I tried both on the Matrix and both would bw good. If you shop Amazon you can get the 840 for 130.00 and the 2002 for under 100. If you can swing the 840 I would go that way.


 

 Why do you like the 840 better? It seems Denons might be too bass heavy (and have loose and flabby bass as well) and the Shure's are more spacious. Is that right?


----------



## monkseatcheese

Does anyone know how this amp would react to the Grado SR325i?


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





pariah1 said:


> Why do you like the 840 better? It seems Denons might be too bass heavy (and have loose and flabby bass as well) and the Shure's are more spacious. Is that right?


 

 The 1001 are not bass heavy at all. The 840 is much better isolation. Sound very dynamic much better bass and it is controlled. I only use the 1001 on my ipod because they are smaller. Better detail and mid range on the 840. Just overall IMHO better than the 1001


----------



## Pariah1

Quote: 





monkseatcheese said:


> Does anyone know how this amp would react to the Grado SR325i?


 


 No, but after I get it (which won't be until next week at least) I can tell you how it is with my Grado 225i's.
  
  Quote: 





frank i said:


> The 1001 are not bass heavy at all. The 840 is much better isolation. Sound very dynamic much better bass and it is controlled. I only use the 1001 on my ipod because they are smaller. Better detail and mid range on the 840. Just overall IMHO better than the 1001


 

 Thanks, that clears things up. I was just assuming most Denons are bass heavy since the D2000s are supposed to be.
   
  Are the 840's pretty comfortable? Also, would you say they have a "laid back/smooth" sound? I've read that somewhere.


----------



## runswithaliens

Hey has anybody tried this as a pre-amp? Specifically, can you tell me if the pre-amp outs shut off when you plug in your headphones, or are they always live?
  -thanks.


----------



## jonathanb715

The pre-amp outs do not mute when a headphone is plugged in.
   
  JB


----------



## clams

Just ordered mine today for my k702s. I'm super excited.
  A few questions for US owners though:

 Did you have to pay duties or customs?
 About how long did it take to come?


----------



## lescanard

Quote: 





clams said:


> Just ordered mine today for my k702s. I'm super excited.
> A few questions for US owners though:
> 
> Did you have to pay duties or customs?
> About how long did it take to come?


 

 No duty for me - and only took 5 days from when I received the shipping notice. Congratulations.


----------



## spookygonk

Gnnn, so tempted to bite the bullet and order one of these*, but bills to pay. Bills to pay...
   
  * or the Matrix Mini-i...


----------



## SPACEACE

for those wanting to save about $150 Us
  http://cgi.ebay.com/LOVELY-CUBE-Linear-Headphone-Amplifier-Finished-Board-/200472011056?cmd=ViewItem&pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiFi_Amplifiers&hash=item2ead102130
   
  Not my auction but this guy will sell you all the parts needed.  Comes out to about $150 or so.. You just don't get the fancy plate printing.. 
  Just a heads up for those on a budget.


----------



## buz

I doubt that this is the exact same design, as for starters, my M-Stage has only one headphone out but instead a line in switch...


----------



## sunneebear

That looks more like the BCL.   If you can actually get all the parts, trans, case etc., than that's a pretty good deal.


----------



## Pariah1

Quote: 





sunneebear said:


> That looks more like the BCL.   If you can actually get all the parts, trans, case etc., than that's a pretty good deal.


 

 Yea, but I wonder how much all the extras are, altogether. Also, I don't see any connector outs? Is it simple to attach wires to rca connectors?


----------



## sergini

Does anyone know how this amp would react to the Grado SR325i?
   
   
  hi, i let a small reply on the page 15 my grado headphone are the 325 is. It's a great match.


----------



## sergini

Quote: 





monkseatcheese said:


> Does anyone know how this amp would react to the Grado SR325i?


 




  Quote: 





sergini said:


> hi, i let a small reply on the page 15 my grado headphone are the 325 is. It's a great match.


----------



## sergini

Quote: 





sergini said:


> hi, i let a small reply on the page 15 my grado headphone are the 325 is. It's a great match.


 




  Quote: 





monkseatcheese said:


> Does anyone know how this amp would react to the Grado SR325i?


----------



## sergini

Quote: 





sergini said:


> Does anyone know how this amp would react to the Grado SR325i?
> 
> 
> hi, i let a small reply on the page 15 my grado headphone are the 325 is. It's a great match.


----------



## sergini

Quote: 





sergini said:


> Does anyone know how this amp would react to the Grado SR325i?
> 
> 
> hi, i let a small reply on the page 15 my grado headphone are the 325 is. It's a great match.


----------



## sergini

Quote: 





monkseatcheese said:


> Does anyone know how this amp would react to the Grado SR325i?


 

 i let a small reply on page 15 my Grado headphone are 325 is


----------



## Balmoral

I wasn't the one that asked, but I'm very happy to hear it all the same. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Quote: 





> hi, i let a small reply on the page 15 my grado headphone are the 325 is. It's a great match.


----------



## Frank I

I have been using the Matrix M Stage for the last week burning in and playing the Denon AHD7000 and I can say that they are perfect together. The sound stage and detail and bass is simply amazing and they match so well with the Denon and 701 I really see no reason to look at any other amps. The Denon is so good with this amp. I think the Matrix can be used with any headphone with the gain adjustments which I settled on the 10DB setting with both the 701 and the 7000. Great amp/


----------



## ninjowned

Since the OP has used this amp with the dt 990 600 ohm I was wondering if anyone has used it with the dt 880 600 ohm.
   
  No longer worried about it's ability to drive them, but would like to hear any impressions if anyone has any!


----------



## francisdemarte

Thanks for this link. I PM'ed the seller asking for the price.
   
  1) Finished Board : US$86
 2) Shipping of above board :  US$14
   
  3) Metal case : US$42
  4) Combined shipping (HK-USA) for Metal case : US$15
   
  Total amount: US$86 + 14 + 42 + 15 = US$157
   
  If you source the 15V tranformer, RCA plugs, wires and misc parts locally your not really saving too much to go through the trouble of DIY.
   
  Better deal if you have parts laying around and just need the board. Group buy anyone? 
   
   
   
  Quote: 





spaceace said:


> for those wanting to save about $150 Us
> http://cgi.ebay.com/LOVELY-CUBE-Linear-Headphone-Amplifier-Finished-Board-/200472011056?cmd=ViewItem&pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiFi_Amplifiers&hash=item2ead102130
> 
> Not my auction but this guy will sell you all the parts needed.  Comes out to about $150 or so.. You just don't get the fancy plate printing..
> Just a heads up for those on a budget.


----------



## sunneebear

Quote: 





francisdemarte said:


> Thanks for this link. I PM'ed the seller asking for the price.
> 
> 1) Finished Board : US$86
> 2) Shipping of above board :  US$14
> ...


 

 That's what I meant when I said earlier that_ if_ you can get _*all*_ the parts for $150 then it would be a good deal.  I've been interested in different ebay kits for years.  One thing in common is the lack of a power supply and transformer.  Finding one or the shipping of one always cost too much.  That's why the M-Stage is a good deal.


----------



## clams

Just got my m-stage to come in. Fast shipping. I plugged it in for a few minutes out of box to see how it is. Really powerful sound. Drives my k702s almost effortlessly. The frequencies could tighten up more though. Hopefully a 100 hours of burn-in should fix this. More to come.


----------



## Balmoral

Just wanted to drop a quick line about the M-Stage and my transaction with Tam's Audio.  The amp is in one word "Fantastic".  Compared to my mini3 ( which I'm still amazed how good it sounds for the size ) the M-Stage is audio nirvana!=) It just does everything flat out better.  Far as my transaction with purchasing the amp it could not have gone any smoother. A+ customer service!  Also a big thank you to  Project86 for the excellent review.  It really helped with the final decision to go ahead with this amp.  I couldn't have asked for a better all around experience. 
   
  Now I think I'm gonna sit back and


----------



## Pariah1

Just ordered it! Can't wait to hear this thing!


----------



## buz

I am listening to my modded RX-700 through the M-Stage right now - such a cheap headphone has no right to sound so good  I fault the M-Stage to no small degree.


----------



## clams

The more I listen to this m-stage the more I appreciate it. The sound just keeps getting tighter and tighter with my K702s making everything sound so crisp. You can also definitely tell the AKGs are being driven effortlessly.
   
  Just a question though. Did anyone find a good opamp replacement to use with this amp?


----------



## Pariah1

Sounds good clams, exactly what I look forward to with my 702's.
   
  I'd also like to know what opamp rolling options there are with this amp...


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





clams said:


> The more I listen to this m-stage the more I appreciate it. The sound just keeps getting tighter and tighter with my K702s making everything sound so crisp. You can also definitely tell the AKGs are being driven effortlessly.
> 
> Just a question though. Did anyone find a good opamp replacement to use with this amp?


 

 Mine sounds so good I have no desire to roll any opamps. May ask Coolfungadget that question and see what he thinks. He is very reachable with emails.


----------



## Balmoral

Quote: 





> Mine sounds so good I have no desire to roll any opamps


 
  I agree with the quality of the sound out of this amp, but I do have the curiosity to see how the sound signature would change.


----------



## clams

I'm tempted to try the audio-gd earth module. Does anyone familiar with this know if it would work?


----------



## Pariah1

Quote: 





balmoral said:


> I agree with the quality of the sound out of this amp, but I do have the curiosity to see how the sound signature would change.


 

 That's what I like, the option to change the SS of the amp slightly. It's one reason I bought my EF-1: to roll tubes to change the SS slightly to my preferences. However, after trying 3 tubes, I settled on one (Tung Sol Black Glass) that is totally satisfactory and have felt no need to try another.
   
  So it could very well be that the SS of the Matrix will sound so satisfactory to me out of the box/stock sound that I will feel no need to opamp roll. But it's nice to know the option is there (especially, if like with the EF-1, the stock tube/sound didn't quite satisfy), and it's one reason I picked the Matrix over some other amps: the socketed and easy to roll opamp (I don't want to mess with soldering).
   
  I haven't received my M Stage yet btw (I only ordered it a mere 3 days ago)...sometime this week I'm sure.


----------



## Noobiiee

I'd love to see a comparison between this amp and the Neco MOSFET V2. Both used high quality components and Discrete Class-A design except the MOSFET powers each channel with one opamps (vs 1 for 2 channels in the M-Stage). 
   
  A link to the ebay page of Neco: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140410007516&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT#ht_2449wt_1139


----------



## cravenz

after what I've read, I'm clearly tempted to pull the trigger here, but save one more question, is the Mini-i a better option if my dac is only the D10? or is it preferable to stick to the M-stage?
   
  Cheers.


----------



## sunneebear

Unless you have plans for upgrading to balance in the future, stick with the D10.  Rolling opamps with the D10 and M-Stage might be a very good combo.


----------



## Gruff

Last year I bought my very first decent hifi system and it was a revelation. Lossless flac files streamed through a good dac,amp and speakers, oh my word! I was literally open mouthed in astonishment at first, and then grinning like a fool for weeks after that as I listened and listened to my collection.
   
  Anyway, I've been considering trying a headphone set up for a little while, and this thread has convinced me. This weekend I ordered a pair of K702's and a Matrix M Stage from Jeffrey Tam (Coolfungadget). I'm so excited, I'm like a kid at christmas. Now just have to wait for delivery.
   
  Thanks to Project86 for his review and thoughts, and everyone else for insights and comments.
   
  I can only echo other's positive opinions on Mr Tam (Coolfungadget), he's already given excellent personal service and communication.


----------



## Frank I

What is so good about the Matrix is not matter what can I use with them they perform well above their price point. I am listening with my  Shure SRH840 and they sound so good. I really havent used the Little Dot MK11 in almost a month. They 840 sound so good on the Matrix as does the 701 and the D7000. One amp and it play everything I can throw at it.


----------



## Pariah1

Quote: 





gruff said:


> Last year I bought my very first decent hifi system and it was a revelation. Lossless flac files streamed through a good dac,amp and speakers, oh my word! I was literally open mouthed in astonishment at first, and then grinning like a fool for weeks after that as I listened and listened to my collection.
> 
> Anyway, I've been considering trying a headphone set up for a little while, and this thread has convinced me. This weekend I ordered a pair of K702's and a Matrix M Stage from Jeffrey Tam (Coolfungadget). I'm so excited, I'm like a kid at christmas. Now just have to wait for delivery.
> 
> ...


 

 My entrance into Hi-Fi was similar Gruff. I bought good monitors and a sub, then a good amp, then realized that I didn't want to be tied to a cd player when I could use my computer and an external dac as my source. So I ripped my cds to FLAC and after I got my DAC Magic I was just amazed and have remained content ever since.
   
  Then I got into headphones and amps for them and I'm still trying to perfect that setup (I think cans are harder than speakers to be satisfied with since it's easier to hear their flaws).
   
  Anyway, congrats and I bet you'll be very happy!

  
  Quote: 





frank i said:


> What is so good about the Matrix is not matter what can I use with them they perform well above their price point. I am listening with my  Shure SRH840 and they sound so good. I really havent used the Little Dot MK11 in almost a month. They 840 sound so good on the Matrix as does the 701 and the D7000. One amp and it play everything I can throw at it.


 

 Hearing this is what really made up my mind to get the Matrix over some other amps I was considering (and also the easy opamp rolling and gain adjustment...and price!). I love my 702's and like my Grado 225i's, but I don't know what cans I might want to try in the future. I wanted an amp that didn't excel with one or two different makers, but did well with any you threw at it.
   
  My Matrix has cleared customs in Chicago (I'm in St. Louis) so hopefully will be here this Sat. or before (or I'll have to wait until Mon.). I can't wait to hear this thing!


----------



## lescanard

Quote: 





frank i said:


> What is so good about the Matrix is not matter what can I use with them they perform well above their price point. I am listening with my  Shure SRH840 and they sound so good. I really havent used the Little Dot MK11 in almost a month. They 840 sound so good on the Matrix as does the 701 and the D7000. One amp and it play everything I can throw at it.


 

 Funny but after a good month+ with my M-Stage - I was in the same boat with my LDI+. I liked it - but figured I wouldn't ever listen to it as a part of my main rig anymore. I put it up for sale with a boatload of tubes I had spent a lot of time and $s accumulating - but changed my mind and after a re-organization - bought a 2nd Airport Express and made the LD part of a nice bedside rig with my D10 as a dac. Now I enjoy my M-Stage all the time - but still get use out of the LD.


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





lescanard said:


> Funny but after a good month+ with my M-Stage - I was in the same boat with my LDI+. I liked it - but figured I wouldn't ever listen to it as a part of my main rig anymore. I put it up for sale with a boatload of tubes I had spent a lot of time and $s accumulating - but changed my mind and after a re-organization - bought a 2nd Airport Express and made the LD part of a nice bedside rig with my D10 as a dac. Now I enjoy my M-Stage all the time - but still get use out of the LD.


 

 I have another CD/sacd inside and will be using the Little Dot MK11 with that setup which gives me another room to listen in. It will also give me some more room as my headphones are stacking up and when I get the LCD2 will need the space.


----------



## Pariah1

Got it! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Switched the gain right away to 10db. First impression: this thing is heavy! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 No, really, right out of the box, this is a heavy and long amp. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Ok first _sound _impression: Oh yea, HERE is the power the 702 needs! At any volume level the sound is more robust, filled or fleshed out, quicker and more energetic with more impact; more *powerful*. THIS is what I've been missing all these months with my 702, and I was right in thinking that the EF-1 just couldn't power them well enough. I even did a "take" when putting on my first track (Rush's Tom Sawyer); my head involuntarily jerked back in surprise at the power and energy.
   
  As for more detailed sound impressions, first thing I noticed was the upper tube veil or softness of my EF-1 was gone; the high mids and highs have more clarity. YET (and this will anger tube fundamentalists lol) the highs are NOT harsher, in fact, I think they are _less _harsh than with my EF-1! Imagine, a pure solid state amp having smoother and less fatiguing highs than an hybrid tube amp! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 This coheres with what I've been growing to suspect more and more: That it's not a matter of tube or solid state having a certain SS in general, but what the maker of the amp is going for. I know my EF-1 is only a hybrid amp though, but still...
   
  Also I think there is more air in the highs now and as a result there seems to be more detail and a slightly larger sound stage. The bass sounds even more articulate than before, and everything seems more balanced and even smoother or more cohesive.
   
  More later, especially as I A/B the M-Stage with the EF-1.
   
  In sum: the 702's are now brought to life! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The power they need is there to give them the energy and more filled out sound (not "warmer" by any means, just not as "thin" or "hollow" or anemic) they are capable of. They sound better than ever now, I'm quite impressed so far!
   
  Thanks to project86 for the review and starting this thread and Frank for pointing this amp out to me and all the other posters who provided their impressions of this amp. I think me, the 702's, and this amp are going to get along just fine for quite awhile. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Also thanks to coolfungadget: a week delivery from China with a weekend in the way...wow!


----------



## Frank I

No problem. Glad you like the amp as much as I do. Let it break in bass will get tighter and it will open up some more. Its a great amp.


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





frank i said:


> I have another CD/sacd inside and will be using the Little Dot MK11 with that setup which gives me another room to listen in. It will also give me some more room as my headphones are stacking up and when I get the LCD2 will need the space.


 
  I set it up in the other room with the Sony CE775 SACD/CD player however the Outlaw 2150 RR stomps it. I don't know if its because of the power and also the Onkyo DX7555 redbook player is a major step up over the Sony.


----------



## Pariah1

Quote: 





frank i said:


> No problem. Glad you like the amp as much as I do. Let it break in bass will get tighter and it will open up some more. Its a great amp.


 

 Thanks! It sounds great right now, I can't imagine it getting much better, sans some opamp rolling.


----------



## ninjowned

I caved and placed my order! Can't wait to join the family


----------



## Pariah1

Quote: 





ninjowned said:


> I caved and placed my order! Can't wait to join the family


 

 Congrats! I think you'll be happy, I am already!


----------



## cravenz

I've waiting for mine as well


----------



## Pariah1

Quote: 





cravenz said:


> I've waiting for mine as well


 

 So you went this way as well eh? Cool, I think you'll be happy, and you can always try tubes later.
   
  I'll get to your last pm later btw.


----------



## Mr Joboto

Quote: 





ninjowned said:


> Since the OP has used this amp with the dt 990 600 ohm I was wondering if anyone has used it with the dt 880 600 ohm.
> 
> No longer worried about it's ability to drive them, but would like to hear any impressions if anyone has any!


 

 Can someone comment on this at all?


----------



## Mr Joboto

Also, has anyone had the chance to compare it to something like the Audio-GD Compass at all?


----------



## project86

Just wanted to pop in here and say hi to everyone. Thanks for all the positive feedback and comments! I'm glad people are enjoying this amp as much as I am. Lately my new Fournier HTA-1 hybrid amp has been stealing a lot of listening time from the M-Stage, but the Matrix is still overall the more versatile amp. I can't imagine going without either of them really.
   
  I recently tried a solid state amp (which will remain nameless, don't want to be rude) that cost nearly twice what the Matrix sells for, and was not impressed at all. The Matrix was easily superior in just about every category except possibly aesthetics and brand appeal.
  
  Quote: 





mr joboto said:


> Also, has anyone had the chance to compare it to something like the Audio-GD Compass at all?


 
   
  I've only heard the Compass a few times, and it seemed like a nice unit, but I think the M-Stage is in another class. Keep in mind that the Compass has a built in DAC which the Matrix doesn't. From what I remember, the Matrix matches the strengths of the Compass (excellent bass, expansive soundstage, fast transients) without having any of the same weaknesses (slightly grainy upper midrange/highs, perhaps a bit dry and uninvolving). Again this is a somewhat uneducated opinion so make of it what you will.
   
  On the other hand if you own a Compas and are satisfied with it, you might just stick with it and spend the money on a different upgrade such as headphones.


  
  Quote: 





mr joboto said:


> Can someone comment on this at all?


 


 Sorry my DT880s are the 250ohm version so I'm no help there. But I will say I've not encountered a headphone yet that doesn't sound quite good with the Matrix.


----------



## Frank I

Well I just ordered the Tesla T1 so I will be able to post on how the Matrix can drive them hopefully next weekend. Since these are my first Hi impedence can it should prove interesting. I do believe they will succeed. Thats the end of my budget for the year new amp and 2k new phones taps me out.


----------



## ninjowned

I will be able to soon. I have a pair of DT880 600 ohm and the Matrix M-Stage on the way.
  
  Quote: 





mr joboto said:


> Can someone comment on this at all?


----------



## Pariah1

Quote: 





project86 said:


> Just wanted to pop in here and say hi to everyone. Thanks for all the positive feedback and comments! I'm glad people are enjoying this amp as much as I am. Lately my new Fournier HTA-1 hybrid amp has been stealing a lot of listening time from the M-Stage, but the Matrix is still overall the more versatile amp. I can't imagine going without either of them really.
> 
> I recently tried a solid state amp (which will remain nameless, don't want to be rude) that cost nearly twice what the Matrix sells for, and was not impressed at all. The Matrix was easily superior in just about every category except possibly aesthetics and brand appeal.
> 
> ...


 

 Project: Can I ask if you did any opamp switching with the Matrix? Just curious as to what others may sound like.
   
  And thanks again for the fantastic amp review/recommendation!

  
  Quote: 





frank i said:


> Well I just ordered the Tesla T1 so I will be able to post on how the Matrix can drive them hopefully next weekend. Since these are my first Hi impedence can it should prove interesting. I do believe they will succeed. Thats the end of my budget for the year new amp and 2k new phones taps me out.


 

 Wow congrats Frank, I bet that can will sound fantastic. You might even sell the 701's!
   
  I'm still very happy with this amp, it's so great to finally have the power my 702's need! They sound great with any material I though at them (though I always thought they did sound good at least), and rock/metal especially has more of the energy, power, impact, speed, and "oomph" needed to sound great. Before this material always sounded kind of weak, sluggish, or anemic...no more! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Still haven't A/B'd the Matrix with my EF-1; I just can't tear myself away from the Matrix to do so!


----------



## project86

Quote: 





pariah1 said:


> Project: Can I ask if you did any opamp switching with the Matrix? Just curious as to what others may sound like.
> 
> And thanks again for the fantastic amp review/recommendation!


 


 No I haven't tried switching opamps, as I'm totally satisfied with the way it sounds already. Also, I've moved on and have been trying a bunch of other new gear, with varying results. I use the M-Stage as a reference because I have a lot of hours logged on it. If I changed the opamp, then I'd have to re-aquaint myself with the new sound before using it to test a new DAC or something. I just don't have the time. On the other hand, if someone here who has similar taste as me (Frank I for example) told me a certain opamp was a clear winner in every way, I would probably give it a try down the road.


----------



## Pariah1

Quote: 





project86 said:


> No I haven't tried switching opamps, as I'm totally satisfied with the way it sounds already. Also, I've moved on and have been trying a bunch of other new gear, with varying results. I use the M-Stage as a reference because I have a lot of hours logged on it. If I changed the opamp, then I'd have to re-aquaint myself with the new sound before using it to test a new DAC or something. I just don't have the time. On the other hand, if someone here who has similar taste as me (Frank I for example) told me a certain opamp was a clear winner in every way, I would probably give it a try down the road.


 

 Yea, this all makes sense, especially for you. I was just wondering.
   
  The Matrix certainly does sound great stock, but then if I've learned anything in audio it's that it's good to experiment and see if you can improve even an good/fantastic amp or alter it more to your taste. And since the Matrix has an easy to switch opamp I might just be doing that. Maybe it will sound even better, maybe not (which would be fine). Doesn't hurt to try!


----------



## project86

Well, now you've got me thinking about switching.... I'll have to re-read this thread as there is some talk of which opamps sound best. The best part is they are usually really cheap to try out. For me it's just a matter of finding the time.


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





project86 said:


> Well, now you've got me thinking about switching.... I'll have to re-read this thread as there is some talk of which opamps sound best. The best part is they are usually really cheap to try out. For me it's just a matter of finding the time.


 

 I won't do that for awhile as i like you are very familiar with the sound of the Matrix and burning and evaluating the T1 will let me know what I hear and if it is a keeper or not. I am hoping it will work well with the Matrix. Funds are exhausted for awhile unless I start selling stuff LOL But I am getting low on stuff to sell. This amp is way underpriced for the quality of parts and how well they perform


----------



## Mr Joboto

Looking forward to your impressions with the T1!


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





mr joboto said:


> Looking forward to your impressions with the T1!


 

 Thanks they ship tomorrow should be here Wed. I will spend some time with them and then post impressions.


----------



## Frank I

Sorry guys after spending the entire evening sorting through the entire thread on the T1 I decided I was too impulsive in ordering them. I do not believe I would be happy long term and I am on the list for the LCD2. I want a can that is significantly better than and INO worth the price of admission. I did not get that impression from reading the threads and I like the cans I have now. So the wait goes on.


----------



## buz

Weren't you going on about how one should wait a few months on the LCD2


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





buz said:


> Weren't you going on about how one should wait a few months on the LCD2


 

 I am on the list by the time I come up looks like might be two months, LOL I am just sitting tight and really did not want to be impulsive. I ordered the T1 and that phone was one I never had considered before. I really want a planar.


----------



## Pariah1

Quote: 





frank i said:


> Sorry guys after spending the entire evening sorting through the entire thread on the T1 I decided I was too impulsive in ordering them. I do not believe I would be happy long term and I am on the list for the LCD2. I want a can that is significantly better than and INO worth the price of admission. I did not get that impression from reading the threads and I like the cans I have now. So the wait goes on.


 

 I don't blame you, myself I can't ever see dropping even $500 on a can! I want to stick to $300 and under. Maybe that will change, but I kind of doubt it. There is a point where it is just "good enough" and for me that's around $200 to $300. 
   
  Little update: I don't want to be a downer, but I am noticing some harshness or hardness or metallic sound to some of the highs. But I don't think this is the M-Stage so much as the 702's. The EF-1 covered this up some with it's "tube" warmth (but I could still tell it was there), but the M-Stage is more neutral and thus revealing. It is funny though, there still seems to be less harsh highs as I said before, but this is in the very upper highs. The more upper mid range and lower treble seems a bit harder or colder or sibilant.
   
  This problem with the highs only seems really apparent on some material (bright) and at higher volumes though.
   
  On the good side I'm noticing more articulation and detail in the bass, more air or headspace in the highs (not sure about detail yet), and I think vocals have been brought up or are more forward in the mix. And then there is all the power and energy that is just wonderful.
   
  Whatever the "problem" with the highs (which is the SS of the 702 more than the Matrix I think) I still am much preferring this amp over the EF-1 and am quite happy with it. More as I listen more and A/B and try out my 225i's with the M-Stage.


----------



## Frank I

I really have not noticed a harsh tremble unless it is a bad recording. One think will never change with both the Matrix and AKG they are both very revealing. If you hear it on all recordings  that would tell you something is not right somewhere. I tend to try to listen to mostly well recorded material.


----------



## BlackstoneJD

Any idea how the Matrix M-Stage stacks up against a Little Dot Mark V?


----------



## vnguyen33

X2 . I would also like to know. Thanks.


----------



## cravenz

Quote: 





pariah1 said:


> Got it!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  lol. i just got it today and I'm listening to it now as I type this. question though, what volume do you have your amp at? cos' I'm more or less listening to it at 12 o'clock with the gain set at 10 I think. lol.


----------



## Mr Joboto

Quote: 





frank i said:


> Sorry guys after spending the entire evening sorting through the entire thread on the T1 I decided I was too impulsive in ordering them. I do not believe I would be happy long term and I am on the list for the LCD2. I want a can that is significantly better than and INO worth the price of admission. I did not get that impression from reading the threads and I like the cans I have now. So the wait goes on.


 

 aaaaaaaaaaaaaah no, now I will never find out 
   
  Someone else buy a T1 with the M-Stage


----------



## cravenz

I'd oblige if you provide me the funds for a T1 lol.
   
  Mmmm...think I'm gonna have to find a better cable to link up the D10 to the M-Stage or should it not be a problem?


----------



## psanga

good
   
  I want it


----------



## francisdemarte

Quote: 





pariah1 said:


> Little update: I don't want to be a downer, but I am noticing some harshness or hardness or metallic sound to some of the highs. But I don't think this is the M-Stage so much as the 702's. The EF-1 covered this up some with it's "tube" warmth (but I could still tell it was there), but the M-Stage is more neutral and thus revealing. It is funny though, there still seems to be less harsh highs as I said before, but this is in the very upper highs. The more upper mid range and lower treble seems a bit harder or colder or sibilant.
> 
> This problem with the highs only seems really apparent on some material (bright) and at higher volumes though.
> 
> ...


 

 Great review! This amp is starting to sound like the new cost/performance champ, I am consumed with the need to purchase one!
   
  I need to get off this site.


----------



## ninjowned

I am stunned by the speed of the shipping. I ordered mine Friday afternoon and it arrived at my local post office THIS morning. That was crazy fast.
   
  *edit* It's here


----------



## Pariah1

Quote: 





frank i said:


> I really have not noticed a harsh tremble unless it is a bad recording. One think will never change with both the Matrix and AKG they are both very revealing. If you hear it on all recordings  that would tell you something is not right somewhere. I tend to try to listen to mostly well recorded material.


 

 I think I was a little too quick in my judgment. This is why I usually wait longer to write anything about a piece of gear!
   
  What I did was go through some "test" material and just listen to bits of songs. Some did sound a little harsh, but this was just parts of songs and only then with certain material (like "bright" 80's pop, rock, and metal). I listened to some singer/songwriter material too, and the vocals did lack some warmth, but they also were more up front in the mix.
   
  Anyway, I listened some last night and am right now with material that is good SQ but not "the best" and it is sounding just fantastic! Not too bright or harsh, and full of energy, quickness, and a "snappy" sound. And I keep being impressed by the quality of the bass, articulate, punchy, and fast and not over done. The highs do sound harder or more metallic than before (especially drum cymbals), but they are not fatiguing and they are also clearer. My music has been infused with a fresh new life! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  I do have several favorite albums on both regular version as well as Gold Masters and some of the Gold Masters do sound better in particular with this amp since it is more revealing/transparent than the EF-1. Before it was more of a toss up between the two, with both sounding good in their own way. Some albums it is still like this, but for albums that are a bit too bright in their original non-gold mastered versions, the Gold Masters add that bit of warmth to them and sound great.

  
  Quote: 





cravenz said:


> lol. i just got it today and I'm listening to it now as I type this. question though, what volume do you have your amp at? cos' I'm more or less listening to it at 12 o'clock with the gain set at 10 I think. lol.


 

 About 10 or 11, 12 if I'm really blasting the tunes!
   
  How do you like the amp?

  
  Quote: 





francisdemarte said:


> Great review! This amp is starting to sound like the new cost/performance champ, I am consumed with the need to purchase one!
> 
> I need to get off this site.


 

 Thanks! I posted a lengthier one a page or two before that one though in case you missed it.

  
  Quote: 





ninjowned said:


> I am stunned by the speed of the shipping. I ordered mine Friday afternoon and it arrived at my local post office THIS morning. That was crazy fast.
> 
> *edit* It's here


 

 Awesome! Enjoy!


----------



## Frank I

I broke down and was given a deal on the T1 that my impulse could not pass by. I also have a 30 day trial. So we shall see.


----------



## SP Wild

What Pariah is hearing in the Matrix / K701 combo is the Matrix ruthlessly exposing strengths and weaknesses of the K701.  I have the same complaint with the BCL.  However I do believe as a reference amplifier, the matrix is a great neutral point to listening for differences in headphones as objectively as possible as it should be able to drive 95 percent of all headphones to full capacity.


----------



## BlackstoneJD

Don't forget by the same token if the Matrix is exposing the weaknesses of the phones it is certainly exposing the weaknesses of the source DAC as well.


----------



## SP Wild

Without a doubt, however going with a warmer source will manage - not eradicate - the common complaints of the K700 series, SS equipment is not colored enough to fully mask it - IMO.


----------



## Pariah1

I agree with all said above, and the DAC Magic is supposed to be on the bright side, no?
   
  Either way it's not so much a slight disappointment like it was a couple days ago as just getting used to the SS of the Matrix compared to my EF-1 with the same phones and source. At least with what I've been listening to the last couple days and now. I still have much more listening to do, but nothing is sounding harsh or fatiguing like it was a bit before, just different, clearer and somewhat "harder".


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





pariah1 said:


> I agree with all said above, and the DAC Magic is supposed to be on the bright side, no?
> 
> Either way it's not so much a slight disappointment like it was a couple days ago as just getting used to the SS of the Matrix compared to my EF-1 with the same phones and source. At least with what I've been listening to the last couple days and now. I still have much more listening to do, but nothing is sounding harsh or fatiguing like it was a bit before, just different, clearer and somewhat "harder".


 

 It is very reveling. I think it is a great reference amp. It works so well and the bass is very very good. it is the highs of my 701 are revealing of the recording I feed it and if it is not well recorded you wont like the sound. When I use the D7000 which is more expensive I can really hear differences between the class difference between the two phones. The Denon are more refined/ The sound isnt hard at all and they really shine with this amp. I think you will find as you go up in price you notice the difference and the Matrix will let you hear it. I will let you guys know how it is with the T1.


----------



## SP Wild

I own the dacmagic and think it is on the neutral to slightly-bright side of things.


----------



## psanga

Thank you for the review.
 It has come for me to want it.


----------



## Pariah1

Quote: 





frank i said:


> It is very reveling. I think it is a great reference amp. It works so well and the bass is very very good. it is the highs of my 701 are revealing of the recording I feed it and if it is not well recorded you wont like the sound. When I use the D7000 which is more expensive I can really hear differences between the class difference between the two phones. The Denon are more refined/ The sound isnt hard at all and they really shine with this amp. I think you will find as you go up in price you notice the difference and the Matrix will let you hear it. I will let you guys know how it is with the T1.


 

 Agreed, I think this will make a fine reference amp since it is revealing, transparent, and neutral. And it also sounds great! The more I listen the more I like it! The bass is so tight, taut, punchy, powerful and articulate I can't get enough!
   
  For me the 702's are more refined/"hi-fi" than my Grado 225i's (and 595's), so I know what you are talking about in a sense. The 225i's are still at least good cans, but the 702's simply outclass them.
   
  I'm not personally willing to spend more than $300 on cans, but I'm not disparaging anyone who does so. It just isn't me. What I have currently is more than good enough. I will probably get some closed cans here sometime and I'd like to try some DT 880's or 990's or some ATH's for open backed cans, but that's about it. I'd sell back what I didn't prefer as much.

  
  Quote: 





sp wild said:


> I own the dacmagic and think it is on the neutral to slightly-bright side of things.


 
  I'd agree, and it's one reason I choose it.


----------



## daltonlanny

I am very interested in the Matrix M-Stage amp.
  Has anyone compared the Matrix M-Stage with the Burson HA-160?
  Has anyone compared the Burson and the M-Stage using AKG K701/K702 headphones?
  If, so what were the differences, and how well did the much less expensive M-Stage compare sonically with the Burson?
  Also, how well does the M-Stage match up with the Sennheiser HD650 and HD600 headphones, overall?
  Sorry so many questions.
  Thanks.


----------



## BlackstoneJD

I would not recommend evaluating any piece of equipment without running it for at least two weeks. I would recommend you run a break in glide tone or noise track through the amp for two weeks as much as humanly possible. I do believe break-in is a factor.


----------



## Pariah1

I don't believe in physical/material break-in (at least not after a very brief time), but I do believe that it certainly takes a bit to really get a grasp on the SS of an amp or can. Thus, yes, take some time before you conclusively judge any one piece of gear, listening to it for dozens of hours with all sorts of your well known material. This is one reason I don't understand people who go to meets and decide whether or not they like a piece of gear based off a few minutes of distracted listening with other gear and material than (probably) their own in the chain. But this is a whole other topic.


----------



## Frank I

I agree with Pariah comments. You really need to evaluate equipment over a period of time in your own system, How many times have I been to a high end dealer and  heard great systems and we hear it differently with our own gear.  I did not notice much changes with the matrix with burn in. I do notice huge changes with headphones as I did with the D7000. Tomorrow I get the T1 and I also am getting the tube amp to compare it both with the Matrix and the Little Dot. I noticed when I opened the MK11 it was set for high impedence so I am now listening to the D7000 on the 10 Gain setting and they sound very nice. The MK11 does not  have the deep bass or soundstage of the Matrix but does sound very good driving both the 701 and D7000 at this setting. If you ever wanted to tone down the bass and soften the highs the little Dot does it well.


----------



## PANGES

Just out of curiosity, for those who are running the M-Stage out of a laptop/computer, what DAC are you guys using with it?


----------



## project86

Quote: 





panges said:


> Just out of curiosity, for those who are running the M-Stage out of a laptop/computer, what DAC are you guys using with it?


 

 I've been switching around a lot between using just my Audinst HUD-mx1, or using the Audinst to convert USB to SPDIF then out to a Sigtone Shek D1 NOS DAC, or just using the Yulong D100. The M-Stage is great for comparing DACs as it is very revealing.


----------



## cravenz

This is gonna be tough to answer on account of the fact that I got the M-stage the same time as the 702s and also the fact that I never had a dedicated amp prior, but it's miles ahead of the D10 alone as I tried that myself; instrument separation was clearly better and the highs were tamed as well in comparison to the D10. It will also be hard for me to reference it to anything else 'cept the D10 and all I can say so far is thank gawd I got the M-stage, else I'd be crying with the highs with the D10; I'd rather shoot myself, put it that way 
   
  I was a little worried having to hit 12 - 1 o'clock cos' I usually listen to the music at 12 - 1 assuming I've got the gain set right 
  I have both the 1 pushed up so I think that would be the same as your setting?
  Quote: 





pariah1 said:


> About 10 or 11, 12 if I'm really blasting the tunes!
> 
> How do you like the amp?


----------



## SP Wild

That's good to hear.  The Matrix is indeed not being denied the title of reference.


----------



## Frank I

I am using them with the Tesla T1 and all Ican say fast,detailed and very transparent. The Matrix is a great match for the T1.


----------



## Pariah1

Quote: 





frank i said:


> I agree with Pariah comments. You really need to evaluate equipment over a period of time in your own system, How many times have I been to a high end dealer and  heard great systems and we hear it differently with our own gear.  I did not notice much changes with the matrix with burn in. I do notice huge changes with headphones as I did with the D7000. Tomorrow I get the T1 and I also am getting the tube amp to compare it both with the Matrix and the Little Dot. I noticed when I opened the MK11 it was set for high impedence so I am now listening to the D7000 on the 10 Gain setting and they sound very nice. The MK11 does not  have the deep bass or soundstage of the Matrix but does sound very good driving both the 701 and D7000 at this setting. If you ever wanted to tone down the bass and soften the highs the little Dot does it well.


 

 Yea, my impressions of gear always change over time (the first couple of weeks), then settle down to a consistent SS after I really get to know it.

  
  Quote: 





panges said:


> Just out of curiosity, for those who are running the M-Stage out of a laptop/computer, what DAC are you guys using with it?


 

 Check my sig, a DAC Magic.

  
  Quote: 





cravenz said:


> This is gonna be tough to answer on account of the fact that I got the M-stage the same time as the 702s and also the fact that I never had a dedicated amp prior, but it's miles ahead of the D10 alone as I tried that myself; instrument separation was clearly better and the highs were tamed as well in comparison to the D10. It will also be hard for me to reference it to anything else 'cept the D10 and all I can say so far is thank gawd I got the M-stage, else I'd be crying with the highs with the D10; I'd rather shoot myself, put it that way
> 
> I was a little worried having to hit 12 - 1 o'clock cos' I usually listen to the music at 12 - 1 assuming I've got the gain set right
> I have both the 1 pushed up so I think that would be the same as your setting?


 

 Haha, well sounds like you like it so that's good! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  I wouldn't be too concerned with your lack of equipment to compare, imo if something doesn't sound good you know it whether or not you have other better gear to compare it to or not. Thus, with my first headphone amp, the X-Head, although it was an improvement over various headphone outs I had, I knew something was off and it needed improvement. The same with the much better EF-1; that is a good amp, but something was off. I got a tube I liked and that much improved things, but I always thought it was a bit muffled or murky for my tastes, and especially lacking in power for my 702's. Well now I know I was right after getting the Matrix! (But I still new it before).
   
  So yes, having different gear to compare can make it easier to tell what gear is lacking in individual gear, and you might not have realized how much it was otherwise, but I think that if one has lesser quality gear or simply gear they don't like the SS of, they will be able to tell even before they get other gear to compare it too.

 For the 10db setting you need both 1's DOWN, with both 2's UP. Didn't your amp come with a sticker that shows that on the bottom? I stay at around 10 and 11, 12 if I'm really listening loud, but not often. It depends on the material.
   
  Quote: 





frank i said:


> I am using them with the Tesla T1 and all Ican say fast,detailed and very transparent. The Matrix is a great match for the T1.


 

 Great, yet another scale up the Matrix isn't lacking with!
   
  I'm continuing to love this amp more and more the more (and different) material I throw at it. It's so fast, quick, punchy, snappy, crisp, clear, detailed, open, and neutral/revealing/transparent that it sounds great with anything I throw at it. The bass is a joy to listen to especially, very articulate, tight, taut, and not over done.
   
  These descriptions also sound like they could apply to the 702's, and that's correct as this amp gets out of the way of cans and lets them sound simply how they sound. I did hook up my Grado 225i's briefly and found them overly bright and harsh with this amp. Now I know why some can't stand the highs of the 225i's; my EF-1 was covering them up more. So unless I also keep my EF-1 my 225i's are going to go as they just won't work with this amp imo. But I do need to listen more to that setup before I totally conclude anything.
   
  Speaking of highs, I don't know what I was talking about before, the Matrix's highs are not harsh. I have been throwing on very bright/fatiguing (yet well recorded) albums (like Rush's Power Windows I'm listening to right now and Queensyrche's Empire) expecting to cringe/wince as soon as I hear the first track or at least easily tire of the album long before it's over, and yet I have not been, even at a pretty good volume. I also did not with my EF-1 and 702's, but the EF-1's lack of power and speed caused these exciting/fast paced albums to sound sluggish, weak.
   
  I will say that I am noticing more sibilance in the vocals (with "s" words) than I did before. But that's it and it's not distracting and I think just a product of the vocals being clearer and more prominent in the mix with the 702's than before.
   
  More later, especially when I get around to comparing/contrasting the Matrix with the EF-1.


----------



## Frank I

I have not played with the gain. Still using the ten. The T1 were an open box and are burned in I believe. All I can say so far is I enjoyed my time with the 701 and will always love it but the T1 is a major step up as it should bet. Best that I do not need to buy another amp the matrix is that good.


----------



## francisdemarte

I've given in to FOTM and ordered the Lovely Cube's version of the M-Stage.
   
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200482693027&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
   
  Planning on putting into an old external CD ROM case, which already has RCA's plugs and IEC, and given that I the DY-1 power supply from my Head Direct EF-5 amp can output the required 15VAC I don't even have to buy a transformer for this making my costs just the $100 for the board.
   
  Will report back once everythis is wired up.


----------



## BlackstoneJD

If I had DIY skills I would buy the board but I would build it closer to Lehmann specs including the better audiophile RCA jacks. It also appears the transformer is a little different.


----------



## Pariah1

Quote: 





francisdemarte said:


> I've given in to FOTM and ordered the Lovely Cube's version of the M-Stage.
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200482693027&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
> 
> ...


 

 Sounds great, I hope this amp (and all variations of it) are not just a FotM though!
   
  I'd like to hear your impressions for sure.
   
  (PS: Did you get my last PM? Just wondering).

  
  Quote: 





frank i said:


> I have not played with the gain. Still using the ten. The T1 were an open box and are burned in I believe. All I can say so far is I enjoyed my time with the 701 and will always love it but the T1 is a major step up as it should bet. Best that I do not need to buy another amp the matrix is that good.


 
   
  Well they OUGHT to sound better! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  I can tell that the 702's flaws are showing up more with the M-Stage; such as the somewhat hard, glarey, or shrill treble. However, so are it's strengths so it's a win-lose sort of deal. I might be curious to try a DT 880 or 990 (always wanted to try one of those) and see how they sound with this amp, or some can with more "sparkley" highs instead of flat or hard.
   
  But then the 702's really are great and just plain "good enough" even with their slight flaws.


----------



## cravenz

Quote: 





pariah1 said:


> Haha, well sounds like you like it so that's good!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


 LOL. So the thing sticking out should be down? I thought the things sticking out was the white colour on the sticker cos' when I got it, all the stuff was set down so I took it that it was at 0db not 20db though


----------



## Pariah1

Yea, those little rubber/plastic tabs you push/slide up or down. I forgot what mine came set as but I put it on 10db before I listened to it and haven't adjusted it yet (but I plan on it to see the differences).
   
  So both left tabs should be slid all the way down for the 10db setting, both right tabs up. Or, going by the numbers, the 1 should be down and the 2 up. See photo.
   
http://coolfungadget.com/ebayimg/matrix_m_stage/DSC02349.JPG
   
  Unless I'm wrong and the black square is supposed to designate empty space and the white square the tab itself...now I'm confused lol.


----------



## cravenz

Quote: 





pariah1 said:


> Yea, those little rubber/plastic tabs you push/slide up or down. I forgot what mine came set as but I put it on 10db before I listened to it and haven't adjusted it yet (but I plan on it to see the differences).
> 
> So both left tabs should be slid all the way down for the 10db setting, both right tabs up. Or, going by the numbers, the 1 should be down and the 2 up. See photo.
> 
> ...


 
  Yeah I've got the same sticker on the back of the set; I always took the white bit to be the tab sticking out since it's white lol. I'll test and check the diff; and report back in a sec


----------



## cravenz

Nope, I'm quite sure it's 10db on my setting where 0db is when the white tabs are down all the way which would correspond to the picture when it is originally given to you. It is exceedingly louder when I set it at 12 o'clock on your setting and then it's about the 1 o'clock volume setting on my version lol. Try it! haha
   
  i.e. i'm quite sure white is the tab hahahaha


----------



## Pariah1

Lol, yea I think that's right!


----------



## cravenz

Quote: 





pariah1 said:


> Lol, yea I think that's right!


 

 lol. which do u prefer nubcake? hahaha


----------



## Pariah1

Lol, sorry getting tired and confused. What the hell is a nubcake? lol
   
  Ok if white = tab then I was on the 18db before and now I'm on the 10db. The 10db does sound quieter, significantly. Maybe this will take the hardness off of the 702's treble, duh!
   
  I was at 10 before, now at the 11 position with the same material. Not LOUD but a good volume.


----------



## cravenz

Quote: 





pariah1 said:


> Lol, sorry getting tired and confused. What the hell is a nubcake? lol
> 
> Ok if white = tab then I was on the 18db before and now I'm on the 10db. The 10db does sound quieter, significantly. Maybe this will take the hardness off of the 702's treble, duh!
> 
> I was at 10 before, now at the 11 position with the same material. Not LOUD but a good volume.


 

 heh nubcake just equal nub = noob = newbie = i'm just trying to be annoying 
   
  I'll stick to 10db then hahahaha..


----------



## Pariah1

Haha, I know, I just never heard "nub" for newb.
   
  Yea, funny how this little change seemed to help the highs. Glad I got the M-Stage with easy to switch gain! That was one reason I got it. I'd hate to have an amp I couldn't adjust the gain on and have the fairly hard highs I was hearing just an hour ago! Should have messed with the gain (and looked at it more closely when I first got the thing!) earlier. Who knew that 8db (from 18db to 10db) would have this much of an effect.
   
  More listening with different gain settings now for sure.


----------



## cravenz

Quote: 





pariah1 said:


> Haha, I know, I just never heard "nub" for newb.
> 
> Yea, funny how this little change seemed to help the highs. Glad I got the M-Stage with easy to switch gain! That was one reason I got it. I'd hate to have an amp I couldn't adjust the gain on and have the fairly hard highs I was hearing just an hour ago! Should have messed with the gain (and looked at it more closely when I first got the thing!) earlier. Who knew that 8db (from 18db to 10db) would have this much of an effect.
> 
> More listening with different gain settings now for sure.


 
   
  haha...tell me how it goes. I'm lazy when it comes to experimenting haha..but I'll try it at some point for sure


----------



## SP Wild

In my recent round of detailed analysis this is what I found, IMO.  The BCL (and by extension the Matrix) truly exists in the upper end of Hi-End.  In my comparisons - since I bought another tube amp - is that the BCL is exposing flaws in my HD650's and K701's left right and center.  The most obvious of these is the treble - both phones comes of worse in the treble with the BCL and more natural with mid-level tube amp.
   
  The one area of the BCL that is perhaps bettered by no other amplifier on the planet is transient response - and both the HD650 and K701 is not the most technically advanced or have agile drivers as the upper league phones (HD800, T1, D7000, LCD2 etc).  I feel the BCL is asking of these phones something that is not their key strength, basically exposing their weaknesses - not the best thing in terms of synergy.
   
  I believe now that only phones like T1, HD800, and LCD2 can exploit this amplifier (super agile drivers)- but owners of these phone are fundamentally looking past the cheap price of the matrix.  With my D7000 - the treble is exquisitely extended and natural - something the HD650's and K701's falter with in this amplifier.  In fact, unless the D7000 is paired with a super-duper transient tube amp (rare and astronomically expense I believe) the potential of these phones are hidden by tubes.
   
  The matrix seems like the perfect amp for those who have multiple headphones and will serve well when upgrading into the ultra league of cans.


----------



## BlackstoneJD

With the Bryston DAC you are in an upper Echelon of source components and you would absolutely benefit from better cans. The next step up in DACs is the probably the $10k dCS Deubussy async USB dac. Good pick!
   
  You could also optimize your amps and source with better power cables and SPDIF digital cable (I really like Transparent Audio cables).
   
  Are you using USB or SPDIF with the Bryston? What is your source?


----------



## SP Wild

Yeah, the Ayre came out just after the Bryston.  Damn.  But the Bryston is incredibly musical - leaning on the musical, tad warmer side of neutral.  My power source is A grade, off the mains with upgrade power cables.  IC's are AudioQuest cheetah solid silver.  I have never heard any meaningful differences with digital cables, then again, I don't have a top notch low digital transport. 
   
  USB input is crap on the Bryston, worse than onboard fibre optic.  I use Jriver MC or Foobar, I use software upsample to 48khz (fixed onboard output) before going to ASIO and into dac.  This yields superior performance to standard USB (how horrible, I hear how bad the jitter is)...Next upgrade is when the next generation of Async USB/SPDIF convertors come out with improved clocks and low ripple PSU.  I should then not regret having missed out on the Ayre Unit.
   
  Not until I got my D7000 and mated it to the BCL did I realise how superior the Bryston is over my previous Dacmagic.  My only bottlenecks now are my headphones.
   
  Mind you, you're bottle necked by your headamp.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Your DCS gear looks enviable!


----------



## BlackstoneJD

Yeah I'm in the market for a new headamp that is the point of my following this thread. I am mostly a speaker guy. My dealer sells the Lehmann but since I found out about the Matrix I am finding the price hard to justify.
   
  The Bryston is actually comparable if not as good as the Ayre, although I didn't audition it extensively because I wanted the USB functionality. The catch with it as you said is the crappy USB implementation. It is well known that is the case. Personally I think the Ayre is a little overpriced at $2,500. My dealer sells the Ayre and the Bryston and when the Ayre first came in one of my guys there said he thought the Bryston might be better, but that was before they really had their computer properly configured. I would not concern yourself with the Ayre. Your unit is at that level.
   
  The Ayre adds value in that it eliminates SPDIF issues and to a certain extent the need for expensive cabling. A good SPDIF cable can be expensive. Unfortunately, in my experience, a good SPDIF cable is an expensive proposition, but very important. In my opinion if you aren't going async USB then SPDIF is your best choice. I got really good results from a Squeezebox III with Channel Islands Power Supply, but the digital cable was a Transparent Audio Digital Reference, extremely expensive.
   
  I use Foobar exclusively. I thought JRiver had the edge but Foobar has a hidden memory player function where you can load the entire file into RAM before playback that I think evens the playing field. I use Windows 7 and WASAPI and it performs flawlessly.


----------



## SP Wild

Sorry guys for derailing a little.
   
  How did you get the files to load to ram on Foobar? I use XP.  Do you feel that a serious SPDIF (coax or optic?)  is beneficial even though I haven't sorted out the jitter as best as possible.  I connected fibre optic and coax (both cheap) from my Pioneer DV989AVi 10KG dvd/sacd player to the Bryston and could not hear any real differences.  I can however discern the lowering of jitter by going battery on laptop, shutting down all apps, wireless and the screen - the sweetening of treble and filling out of mids, separation and imaging improvements are audible.  Or should I wait for an uncompromising low jitter source before forking out for a digital cable?  Your digital cable is coming into exotica, much like my analogue IC's - any ideas?  cheers.


----------



## Pariah1

Quote: 





sp wild said:


> In my recent round of detailed analysis this is what I found, IMO.  The BCL (and by extension the Matrix) truly exists in the upper end of Hi-End.  In my comparisons - since I bought another tube amp - is that the BCL is exposing flaws in my HD650's and K701's left right and center.  The most obvious of these is the treble - both phones comes of worse in the treble with the BCL and more natural with mid-level tube amp.
> 
> The one area of the BCL that is perhaps bettered by no other amplifier on the planet is transient response - and both the HD650 and K701 is not the most technically advanced or have agile drivers as the upper league phones (HD800, T1, D7000, LCD2 etc).  I feel the BCL is asking of these phones something that is not their key strength, basically exposing their weaknesses - not the best thing in terms of synergy.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Great review and nice to know it scales up, although I just don't think I'm going there.

  
  Quote: 





sp wild said:


> Not until I got my D7000 and mated it to the BCL did I realise how superior the Bryston is over my previous Dacmagic.  My only bottlenecks now are my headphones.


 

 Arrgh! Don't say that! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 For me the DAC Magic was really too much money for my needs.
  
   
  Quote: 





blackstonejd said:


> Yeah I'm in the market for a new headamp that is the point of my following this thread. I am mostly a speaker guy. My dealer sells the Lehmann but since I found out about the Matrix I am finding the price hard to justify.
> 
> And considering the M-Stage basically is the BCL (and maybe even a little better in it's design), there's no way I'd pay 3 or 4 times as much!


----------



## SP Wild

No need for any concern regarding your dacmagic.  There are more similarities than differences when compared to exotica.  Only ultra expensive phones will truly realise the benefits - even then the value for money equation is horrendous.


----------



## BlackstoneJD

We can take this into a private message we are sort of derailing the thread but let me answer your question.
   
  For Foobar the option is:
 Options --> Advanced ---> Playback ---> Full file buffering and set to a size bigger than your largest music file. You will know it is working because if you stream files from a wireless network it will take tracks much longer to load as it downloads the entire track. Gordon Rankin (Wavelength Audio, invented async USB) thought this was a significant feature in JRiver. This turns Foobar into a "memory player" like JRiver.  
   
  I would stay away from optical, period. Some people think in a PC to DAC connection it provides some isolation from the EMI generated in the PC, or something. I've never tested it that way, just straight up CD player to DAC. I don't know anything about the new USB to SPDIF converters--maybe my knowledge is out of date. 
   
  I can't really recommend you buy a really expensive cable, but you might want to consider used cables or moderately priced cables. I don't know your budget. 
   
  There is no such thing as an uncompromising low jitter source with SPDIF. SPDIF is inherently compromised, which is why async USB is taking off. The high end SPDIF cables only mitigate the problem, they don't solve it. The only no compromise solution is a top shelf all in one CD player with the DAC on board, or a CD transport connected to a DAC by SPDIF, with a separate "word clock" connection from the DAC to the transport. That slaves the transport to the DAC's word clock and "syncs" the components. Async USB does this on a single connection. The Bryston doesn't have a word clock out. Almost nobody ever supported that feature, but that is how dCS got around the jitter issue with their component stacks. 
   
  It does not really make sense to spend the money on really expensive SPDIF when we know the trend is USB and you want your music from the computer anyway. The money you spent would be better off just going to a USB dac in the future--I suspect it will have a good resale value. I suspect that 1) Bryston will eventually improve their USB implementation and offer an upgrade to existing BDA-1 users $200-300 max?, 2) you could sell the Bryston on audiogon and get whatever the hot USB DAC is at that time. It might even be the successor to the BDA-1, whatever that turns out to be. I can't really recommend you spend big money on a cable for a Pioneer player, and I can't recommend you spend big money to replace the player/transport. The value of async USB is that it eliminates the need for an expensive source. The Bryston needs feeding. I'm not sure you can really do anything about it until there is a suitable replacement for the Bryston. 
   
  dCS recognized this upgrade path issue with its Puccini word clock and Scarlatti Upsampler. Those devices make the connection from the computer with async USB, and then make the connection with the SPDIF DAC with a SPDIF cable and a word clock sync cable, so all the whole system is tied to a single clock. That is how they bridged the gap. The Squeezebox III is a very low jitter SPDIF device that used to my recommendation but maybe the USB to SPDIF converters are as good or better. I dunno.
   
  OK 
  Quote: 





sp wild said:


> Sorry guys for derailing a little.
> 
> How did you get the files to load to ram on Foobar? I use XP.  Do you feel that a serious SPDIF (coax or optic?)  is beneficial even though I haven't sorted out the jitter as best as possible.  I connected fibre optic and coax (both cheap) from my Pioneer DV989AVi 10KG dvd/sacd player to the Bryston and could not hear any real differences.  I can however discern the lowering of jitter by going battery on laptop, shutting down all apps, wireless and the screen - the sweetening of treble and filling out of mids, separation and imaging improvements are audible.  Or should I wait for an uncompromising low jitter source before forking out for a digital cable?  Your digital cable is coming into exotica, much like my analogue IC's - any ideas?  cheers.


----------



## BlackstoneJD

We are on the same page, you had it right. 
  
  Quote: 





sp wild said:


> Next upgrade is when the next generation of Async USB/SPDIF convertors come out with improved clocks and low ripple PSU.  I should then not regret having missed out on the Ayre Unit.


----------



## BlackstoneJD

If I were to buy an M-Stage to evaluate, and if I decided it was not the amp for me, would anyone be interested in snapping up the unit from me at a discount?


----------



## daltonlanny

Hey BlackstoneJD...I would snap it up in a heartbeat!!!


----------



## SP Wild

Thanks Blackstone.


----------



## Mr Joboto

I'd be interested


----------



## Frank I

The Matrix with the T1 is doing great. It is showing all the details and speed and the accuracy the T1 has to offer. The amp is so good with all the cans  When you listen to an amp you want it just amplify t\the signal and get out of the way. This amp does exactly that and can used as a reference tool as it will let you hear exactly what any system change is doing in your system including cables. I had swapped out the audioquest black mamba and inserted the MIT 330 tube terminator and I hear the differences right away. The MIT used in my main system and works well as it is part of the network with matching speaker cables was no match for the 100.00 Black Mamba. Suoer amp.


----------



## SP Wild

How about a quick impression with Matrix, T1 and D7000 - your opinion is valued.


----------



## Frank I

I really want to do comparison on all three can in the next week or so. I want to really take my time and compare the D7000 with the T1 and 701. All three work and sound very good with the Matrix. I also know all three work well with the Little Dot. Differences are many and I need at least week or two to come up with a very fair comparison. The T1 continue to impress me.


----------



## BlackstoneJD

I just ordered the Matrix.


----------



## Pariah1

Quote: 





sp wild said:


> No need for any concern regarding your dacmagic.  There are more similarities than differences when compared to exotica.  Only ultra expensive phones will truly realise the benefits - even then the value for money equation is horrendous.


 

 Good to hear, and what I've long thought anyway about audio...it scales up, but not drastically after a certain price point.
   
  I haven't been keeping up with the reputation of the Magic though, to see if it still is considered a good/great DAC or if it was another FotM (I'm thinking not though).

  
  Quote: 





frank i said:


> I really want to do comparison on all three can in the next week or so. I want to really take my time and compare the D7000 with the T1 and 701. All three work and sound very good with the Matrix. I also know all three work well with the Little Dot. Differences are many and I need at least week or two to come up with a very fair comparison. The T1 continue to impress me.


 

 Sounds good and glad you like the T1!

  
  Quote: 





blackstonejd said:


> I just ordered the Matrix.


 

 Looking forward to your impressions.
   
   
  So I experimented very briefly with the gain settings (all with the 702's) : the 0db was a bit weak, the 20 and 18db too strong. I switched back to the 10db and it seems powerful but not overly so, a good balance.
   
  An analogy can be made with badly remastered material compared to the original master: the remastered is louder and stronger and sounds "better" for a bit until you realize that it's just too hot and in your face. The 20/18db was that. Everything was just overdone and not balanced or smooth but too peaky. Otoh, sometimes well remastered material can sound better than the original master that was too weak or distant or quiet. That would be the 10db, it's stronger and louder but not overly so...it just brings up the mix. The 0db would be original master that was always a bit muffled, quiet, or anemic.
   
  That aside one thing I keep thinking of when I listen to this amp is it's "quiet confidence". That is, it seems to have an authoritative grasp on any material feed to it, it processes it how it should sound without overdoing any of it. This is a mark of hi-fi imo, this neutral ability to handle material and not be overwhelmed by any aspect of it but keep it all well paced, balanced, accurate. It commands the material instead of letting the material (at least some aspects) take control of it.


----------



## SP Wild

I was going to post how I felt the same with the BLC/D7000 and a better upsampling feeding the dac.  I reverted from the loudest dip switch setting, to the lowest.


----------



## daisangen

Perhaps a stupid question, but I'm wondering if it's possible to control the line-out's volume with the knob?


----------



## BlackstoneJD

I am really looking forward to testing this unit with the Ayre as my pro-ject headbox SE II is just not cutting it.


----------



## cravenz

I'm enjoying the music a whole lot more now lol; well in combination of both the 702s and the Matrix only problem is a dac/source that I'm considering moving towards to but the DACMagic is crazy ex; that and I'd also consider testing out SACDs just to see how much of a difference it makes. ARGH!


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





blackstonejd said:


> I am really looking forward to testing this unit with the Ayre as my pro-ject headbox SE II is just not cutting it.


 

 You'll hear the difference all right - especially in transients.


----------



## francisdemarte

Sounds like the 18 & 20 gain settings have limited usefulness. Would've been better to have more settings between 0 and 10 db, a 2, 5, or 7. This may be as easy as swapping out a few resisters, I'm going to PM coolfungadget to see if they have a schematic.


----------



## Gruff

If you're emailing coolfungadget, why don't you ask him if he (or his supplier) might consider producing a high end clone DAC.
   
  As this M Stage Matrix is to the Black Cube Linear, perhaps they could do an equally impressive job on something like an M Stage clone of the Bryston BDA1 DAC. With similar quality and savngs, I'm sure we could rustle up PLENTY of sales from HeadFi.
   
  Perhaps we should all email him if we are interested in something like that!


----------



## coolfungadget

Quote: 





francisdemarte said:


> Sounds like the 18 & 20 gain settings have limited usefulness. Would've been better to have more settings between 0 and 10 db, a 2, 5, or 7. This may be as easy as swapping out a few resisters, I'm going to PM coolfungadget to see if they have a schematic.


 


 errrrrrrrrrr...We don't really quite encourage MODding although this amp has a very simple circuit... 2, 5, or 7 db gains don't make much difference to my ears.
  
  Quote: 





gruff said:


> If you're emailing coolfungadget, why don't you ask him if he (or his supplier) might consider producing a high end clone DAC.
> 
> As this M Stage Matrix is to the Black Cube Linear, perhaps they could do an equally impressive job on something like an M Stage clone of the Bryston BDA1 DAC. With similar quality and savngs, I'm sure we could rustle up PLENTY of sales from HeadFi.
> 
> Perhaps we should all email him if we are interested in something like that!


 
   
  Thanks for the idea but simply cloning is not a good behavior. We can do more than that.
   
  Btw, we do have a larger DAC but it's too heavy to ship overseas. Check this link out: http://www.diyplus.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=955
   
  PM me if you are interested...


----------



## purrin

Dang, there is so much fun stuff readily available in Shanghai! Totally unlike the U.S. Anyways, I was looking for a SS alternative to my PS1000s which sound too warm with my Melos. Just pulled the trigger on the Matrix M-Stage - can't wait.


----------



## cravenz

Quote: 





purrin said:


> Dang, there is so much fun stuff readily available in Shanghai! Totally unlike the U.S. Anyways, I was looking for a SS alternative to my PS1000s which sound too warm with my Melos. Just pulled the trigger on the Matrix M-Stage - can't wait.


 

 I doubt you'll be disappointed 
   
  PMed coolfungadget regarding the dac.
   
  I'm now worried about having a proper source seeing that everything comes out of my laptop which is rather annoying


----------



## SP Wild

Nooooooo!  You know what? If I had my way all over again, I wouldn't think twice to try out these chinese products and save an arm an a leg.
   
  Quote: 





gruff said:


> If you're emailing coolfungadget, why don't you ask him if he (or his supplier) might consider producing a high end clone DAC.
> 
> As this M Stage Matrix is to the Black Cube Linear, perhaps they could do an equally impressive job on something like an M Stage clone of the Bryston BDA1 DAC. With similar quality and savngs, I'm sure we could rustle up PLENTY of sales from HeadFi.
> 
> Perhaps we should all email him if we are interested in something like that!


----------



## Gruff

Quote: 





coolfungadget said:


> Thanks for the idea but simply cloning is not a good behavior. We can do more than that.


 

 I understand your ambition to do more, of course, but, isn't the M Stage Matrix more or less a direct clone of the BCL? Same components in the same (I understand) circuit?
   
  The concensus in this thread, from people far more electrically qualified than me, is that the M Stage is VERY close to being identical to the BCL, am I wrong?
   
  Please don't be offended, I'm not pointing any fingers, and I understand how it can be seen as slightly dubious to use circuits from other designers. That's a whole other discussion and this isn't the place for it.
   
  I'm just a fan of the M Stage, and would be very interested in a high quality DAC which was "inspired by" a high end alternative like the Bryston model, in the same way the M Stage is "inspired by" the BCL.
   
  I can say I'm absolutely delighted with my M Stage which you supplied to me via ebay. The communication from you was personal and swift, and shipping from China was lightning fast. The sound of the amp, to my admittedly inexperienced ears, is wonderful. I'm listening to it right now!
   
  I probbaly wouldn't be confident enough to just buy one of your DAC's unheard, it was this thread by Project86, with his extensive review, followed up by more discussion amongst experienced Head-Fi'ers which persuaded me to buy the M Stage.
   
  It looks like several others have been buying as a direct result of this thread too.... Perhaps you might consider loaning a "demo model" of one (or more) of your Matrix DAC's to Project86, if he might be interested in listening and giving us a review. He seems a thoroughly nice chap, and I'm sure he'd send 'em back if you took care of shipping costs.
   
  If anyone has had an opportunity to hear and play with any of the Matrix DAC's I'd be very interested to know opinions, so please shout up!


----------



## cravenz

Quote: 





gruff said:


> I understand your ambition to do more, of course, but, isn't the M Stage Matrix more or less a direct clone of the BCL? Same components in the same (I understand) circuit?
> 
> The concensus in this thread, from people far more electrically qualified than me, is that the M Stage is VERY close to being identical to the BCL, am I wrong?
> 
> ...


 
   
  check the thread on the matrix mini-i, that will give you some insight into the DAC


----------



## Gruff

I'll look that up right now, Thanks.


----------



## cravenz

Quote: 





gruff said:


> I'll look that up right now, Thanks.


 

 bear in mind that it doubles up as an amp as well, it performs well for what it does from the reviews, but it is not a standalone dac unit, but obviously can be used as one.


----------



## Gruff

Quote: 





cravenz said:


> bear in mind that it doubles up as an amp as well, it performs well for what it does from the reviews, but it is not a standalone dac unit, but obviously can be used as one.


 

 Yeah, I understand it's dual DAC/amp function.
   
  I've started wading through the (long!) thread now. As positive as opinions on the mini-i might be, it's not the sort of thing I'm be looking to buy for myself. I currently have a DacMagic, which sounds great with the M Stage amp and K702's, so I'm interested in something which would be a significant improvement over that.
   
  This mini-i may be perfect for a friend of mine though, who I'm trying to convince of the benefits of better audio equipment (he's already a headphone listener, but just uses the 3.5mm soundcard out on his laptop, with some Senn HD 590's). I was going to steer him towards the Beresford Caiman, as that seems well regarded as a DAC and also has a headphone amp stage integrated. Looks like this mini-i might also suit him very well.
   
  Thanks.


----------



## cravenz

Quote: 





gruff said:


> Yeah, I understand it's dual DAC/amp function.
> 
> I've started wading through the (long!) thread now. As positive as opinions might be for the mini-i may be, it's not the sort of thing I'm be looking to buy for myself. I currently have a DacMagic, which sounds great with the M Stage amp and K702's, so I'm interested in something which would be a significant improvement over that.
> 
> ...


 

 yeah, I was tentatively looking towards the DACMagic as well cos' I'd like to upgrade my DAC but I wouldn't have the funds to upgrade too far either. But if coolfungadget is able to come up with something in similar vein to the M-stage, I'd be interested.


----------



## SP Wild

You guys must seriously check out the GD range - how many times must I say this?


----------



## BlackstoneJD

It appears the Matrix M-Stage has been updated to VERSION 2, with:
   
   

 *Newly designed casing, more solid and durable New*
 Newly designed Matrix toroidal transformer *New*
 Full size PCB and less power wire *New*
 Interference reduction *New*
   
  I am waiting to see pics of the new transformer.


----------



## cravenz

Quote: 





blackstonejd said:


> It appears the Matrix M-Stage has been updated to VERSION 2, with:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 bummer. lol and some of us just got ours lol. I am having issues with the power cable though, it's a pretty loose fit, but otherwise it's all going well.


----------



## cravenz

Quote: 





sp wild said:


> You guys must seriously check out the GD range - how many times must I say this?


 

 i'm assuming ya talking bout the audio-gd range? i'm sorta looking at the dac-19, but the price point of it is kinda high so it's outta my league at the moment


----------



## SP Wild

save up for one.  Don't waste your time going lower than that.


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





blackstonejd said:


> It appears the Matrix M-Stage has been updated to VERSION 2, with:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Who is the seller and is it a Matrix or did Holly clone it. Coolfungadget has not said anything about it in post here. Never mind I seen the new ebay add. Power is the same and I am not changing mine.


----------



## buz

The case is already built like a tank - not sure how you could really improve on that.
   
  It's also not quite clear to me whether full size PCB would necessarily be an improvement


----------



## BlackstoneJD

I have no idea what the new PCB brings to the table. The new torodal transformer could be significant.


----------



## francisdemarte

Sounds like they are integrating the inputs/outputs and maybe the transformer into the PCB, probably not much of a sonic improvement but more a way to make manufacturing the amp easier/faster.
   
  It would be a nice if the new transformers were encapsulated or shielded too!


----------



## purrin

Quote: 





sp wild said:


> You guys must seriously check out the GD range - how many times must I say this?


 

 LOL, I was about to comment how refreshing it was for folks to be talking about gear (China) that is NOT Audio-GD.  Nothing against Audio-GD, but lots of people don't realize just how much variety of cool stuff there is in China.
   
  Anyways, to the OP: great review - comprehensive, articulate, and mostly importantly comparative to a wide variety of other equipment.


----------



## daisangen

Quote: 





frank i said:


> Who is the seller and is it a Matrix or did Holly clone it. Coolfungadget has not said anything about it in post here. Never mind I seen the new ebay add. Power is the same and I am not changing mine.


 

 coolfungadget is selling it so it must be the real deal. Yet another price bump though. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Matrix-m-stage-Headphone-Amp-/350332715743


----------



## Dojomoto

Quote:


blackstonejd said:


> It appears the Matrix M-Stage has been updated to VERSION 2, with:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


  I guess this is the reason for the $40 increase in price since the beginning of this thread.


----------



## spookygonk

Quote: 





dojomoto said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> I guess this is the reason for the $40 increase in price since the beginning of this thread.


 
  That's £20 extra for us Brits, which while not much of an increase, does now put it in the '_do I really need one of these?'_ price bracket.
   
  Is the new revision going to make a difference sonically? I haven't heard of any interference problems with this amp, nor problems with power.


----------



## fluffygdog95

I ordered an M-Stage amplifier and will be receiving it next week, hopefully. I will be receiving a Musical Fidelity probably tomorrow, too. I have an Audio-GD Compass, Denon D2000, and Sennheiser HD600 with which I will be trying many combinations to get the best sound. I will post my findings on which combination sounds the best to me.
   
  Would anyone like to suggest specific things I should do, or specific elements for which I should listen?


----------



## applevalleyjoe

If comparable to the Sheer HA-006++, a great buy at even this price! I am awaiting a response from Mr. Tam on ebay to a couple of questions that I had then I'll be ordering.
   
  Incidentally, has anyone compared the M-Stage to the HA-006++ or did I miss it in this thread?


----------



## Sid-Fi

Cravenz, would you mind commenting on how your IE8 sound with the M-stage? I know it's obviously made for full-size cans, but I'm wondering if it would offer me a nice upgrade in sound quality over my Ibasso D10 with HiFlight's topkit while I save up for full-size cans (leaning on D2000 or AKG 702).
   
  Anyone else try M-Stage with IE8?


----------



## Sid-Fi

Quote: 





coolfungadget said:


> errrrrrrrrrr...We don't really quite encourage MODding although this amp has a very simple circuit... 2, 5, or 7 db gains don't make much difference to my ears.
> 
> 
> Thanks for the idea but simply cloning is not a good behavior. We can do more than that.
> ...


 

 Can you give us some general information on this DAC? How much more does it cost than mini-i? How significant is the improvement in sound quality?


----------



## cravenz

Quote: 





sid-fi said:


> Cravenz, would you mind commenting on how your IE8 sound with the M-stage? I know it's obviously made for full-size cans, but I'm wondering if it would offer me a nice upgrade in sound quality over my Ibasso D10 with HiFlight's topkit while I save up for full-size cans (leaning on D2000 or AKG 702).
> 
> Anyone else try M-Stage with IE8?


 
   
  heh. I replied to your question on the IE8 thread. But to sum it up, you have to set the gain settings at 0, 10db involves too much hiss and 0db more or less solves that issue. I couldn't test further than that because I don't have a proper adapter to fit it into the M-stage and all I have is the 702s adapter which didn't work.
   
  I don't know how the D2000s sound, but I'm still burning in the 702s. Whilst they are bass light to some degree, I also do appreciate that particular fact as well. In some songs, the bass can seem to be really lacking, but my cans are still, and probably to most, in the burn in stage and the bass is supposed to get better, but as it stands, it still plays beats well, but there are some songs that just sound a little 'off' due to the lack of bass, but I think I'll wait till a considerable amount of time has passed with them first.
   
  That being said, they are totally different from the IE8s for that very issue highlighted above. I went with the 702s cos' at home, I listen to different music and though I still listen to some mainstream stuff, the selling points of the 702 and the Matrix together as reference equipment was what sold me. In that aspect, you won't be disappointed and I certainly haven't, but it is a change for me. At one point, I told myself I wouldn't get cans and I did. Next step for me now is to save up for a proper dac and source I guess.
   
  Sorry I can't help any further, but if I do get an adapter, I'll be sure to let you know. I never did prior because at home, I don't really need the IEMs.


----------



## Sid-Fi

Thanks Cravenz, I appreciate the detailed reply. I'm in the exact same boat as you, coming form D10 and IE8 and wanting to get a better DAC, amp, and full-size cans. I'm definitely tempted to get the AKG based on all of the feedback here, but am worried that I might not like it. I know I love the IE8s sound (bass reigned in by topkit) and I know that HD 600 or Denon D2000 would be pretty similar and therefore a safer bet, but then again it would make sense to mix it up and not have full-size cans sound almost the same...decisions decisions. I sure wish I could audition them, but I still haven't even heard of another head-fi'er in Phoenix let alone stores that carry audiophile headphones...
   
  I'm leaning on getting the mini-i and m-stage as my next combo and keeping the d10 and IE8 for portable setup. I'm also considering the Nuforce HDP as well. My biggest challenge is I'm not sure in which order to upgrade since it will take me a good month or two for each upgrade.


----------



## cravenz

Quote: 





sid-fi said:


> Thanks Cravenz, I appreciate the detailed reply. I'm in the exact same boat as you, coming form D10 and IE8 and wanting to get a better DAC, amp, and full-size cans. I'm definitely tempted to get the AKG based on all of the feedback here, but am worried that I might not like it. I know I love the IE8s sound (bass reigned in by topkit) and I know that HD 600 or Denon D2000 would be pretty similar and therefore a safer bet, but then again it would make sense to mix it up and not have full-size cans sound almost the same...decisions decisions. I sure wish I could audition them, but I still haven't even heard of another head-fi'er in Phoenix let alone stores that carry audiophile headphones...
> 
> I'm leaning on getting the mini-i and m-stage as my next combo and keeping the d10 and IE8 for portable setup. I'm also considering the Nuforce HDP as well. My biggest challenge is I'm not sure in which order to upgrade since it will take me a good month or two for each upgrade.


 
   
  I definitely didn't go the Sennheiser way because of the fact that I already know the sound signature and comments were made that the IE8s were like the HD650s which really didn't make much sense for me to get, but then again if you get a pair of cans that are versatile, then why not. With the k702s, I can listen to a different variety of music, but I'm still able to listen to what I listened to on the road as well. I really enjoy the 702s though comfort can be a tad annoying at times. It definitely excels in its soundstaging as well which is a feature of the IE8 that I really like.
   
  I would wait to see what coolfungadget replies regarding the dac as I'm definitely leaning towards getting a separate dac whereas the mini-i functions as a dac and amp which I already kinda have in the D10 which is being used as my dac at this moment in time. If you have a good month or two, I'd say definitely wait for coolfungadget's reply and then take it from there.
   
  If you need to know anything else, if I can help, just let me know


----------



## coolfungadget

Quote:


sid-fi said:


> Can you give us some general information on this DAC? How much more does it cost than mini-i? How significant is the improvement in sound quality?


 

 It is called "Matrix DAC7" but it's been discountinued because we are unable to source the IC "PMD100". Right now the designer is trying to redesign the HDCD decoder and hopefully to build an mk2.


----------



## coolfungadget

Folks, I am sorry for not letting you guys know about this upgrade earlier. I have to make sure all other resellers clear their stocks of the old model. Although I am one of them but I have already given some of my recent buyers a free upgrade to the new version. OMG there are 15 of them...
   
  You are partly right about the reasons for the price up. However, other than the increase of manufacture cost, shipping cost increase and Chinese currency appreciation are also the major reasons.
   
  All your feedbacks, suggestions, comments and complaints are very valuable to me and my partners at Matrix Audio. I am also very grateful to Project86 who gave us a great review and a nice place to discuss about this product. I guess I should invite him/her to review Matrix' next product probably in early July.
   
  Anyways, I just got some new pics of the new version of m-stage. Check them out here: http://coolfungadget.com/ebayimg/matrix_m_stage_mk2/


----------



## Dojomoto

coolfungadget said:
  "Folks, I am sorry for not letting you guys know about this upgrade earlier. "
   
   Well, that seemed like a swift kick in the .... I hope you haven't alienated everyone who got the old model while you held back on the "upgraded" model. Also, I'm curious why coolfungadget is  exempt from the requirement of being a MOTD here on the boards?


----------



## Pariah1

Quote: 





cravenz said:


> I'm enjoying the music a whole lot more now lol; well in combination of both the 702s and the Matrix only problem is a dac/source that I'm considering moving towards to but the DACMagic is crazy ex; that and I'd also consider testing out SACDs just to see how much of a difference it makes. ARGH!


 

 I don't think you need to go that high for a good DAC, maybe $200. There seems to be more good DACs in that price range than even a year ago.
  
  Quote: 





francisdemarte said:


> Sounds like the 18 & 20 gain settings have limited usefulness. Would've been better to have more settings between 0 and 10 db, a 2, 5, or 7. This may be as easy as swapping out a few resisters, I'm going to PM coolfungadget to see if they have a schematic.


 

 You know more about this stuff than I do, but I can hear little difference in between the 18 and 20 gain settings, so adding a bunch of increments on the lower end would be of little use too right? Maybe a 5 and a 15 (and skip the 18) would of been nice.
  
  Quote: 





spookygonk said:


> Is the new revision going to make a difference sonically? I haven't heard of any interference problems with this amp, nor problems with power.


 

 Doesn't seem like it, and I have no interference either, the amp is dead quiet. I only can hear a bit of hiss when I turn the volume all the way up. At 95% of the way up there is still nothing.
   
  Frankly I'm glad to have gotten the "old" version before the price increase!
  
  Quote: 





cravenz said:


> I don't know how the D2000s sound, but I'm still burning in the 702s. Whilst they are bass light to some degree, I also do appreciate that particular fact as well. In some songs, the bass can seem to be really lacking, but my cans are still, and probably to most, in the burn in stage and the bass is supposed to get better, but as it stands, it still plays beats well, but there are some songs that just sound a little 'off' due to the lack of bass, but I think I'll wait till a considerable amount of time has passed with them first.


 

 Imo burn in is hooey, and although I did think I heard some changes in the 702's when burning them in (around 300 hours), looking back on my comments on them they sound the same as what I was describing when I first got them as they do now with 1000 or 2000 hours on them (lost count). From my initial memory of what they sounded like first off they do as well.
   
  I have no problems with the bass with the 702's. It is accurate to me, it doesn't over emphasize the low mid bass to try to pretend it has more "bass" than it really does, and the bass is there when needed (and can be really deep and powerful).
   
  The only real flaw with the 702's is that sometimes their highs can be hard/metallic/cold as I have stated itt before. But they do everything else so well and it is not a major flaw, just sometimes a bit annoying. Most of the time I don't really notice it, just with some material on some volumes.
  
  Quote: 





sid-fi said:


> Thanks Cravenz, I appreciate the detailed reply. I'm in the exact same boat as you, coming form D10 and IE8 and wanting to get a better DAC, amp, and full-size cans. I'm definitely tempted to get the AKG based on all of the feedback here, but am worried that I might not like it. I know I love the IE8s sound (bass reigned in by topkit) and I know that HD 600 or Denon D2000 would be pretty similar and therefore a safer bet, but then again it would make sense to mix it up and not have full-size cans sound almost the same...decisions decisions. I sure wish I could audition them, but I still haven't even heard of another head-fi'er in Phoenix let alone stores that carry audiophile headphones...


 

 I have never heard the IE8 or 600's or 2000's, but from the descriptions they are unlike the 702's. I'd stay away from the 2000's as they are supposed to have loose or flabby and overwhelming bass. At least that's what has kept me from trying them (that and closed cans just aren't supposed to sound as good as open overall). I'd go for the 600's if you don't go with the AKG's.
   
  The 702's have a detailed, crisp, clear, lean, articulate, transparent, revealing sound (especially with the M-Stage which is neutral and revealing as well). They are not at all warm or natural or laid back/mellow. If that's the sound you like, go with some Senn's.


----------



## cravenz

Yup, I kinda agree burn in for vast amounts of hours is bordering on rubbish, but I don't want to come to a conclusion on that. I do believe that drivers need some time to really kick in, but how much is the question and I don't think it takes an absurd amount of hours. Just think of it in the case of a shoe that needs some breaking in.
   
  I'm in total agreement with you on the 702s though and I love 'em; only problem I'm facing at the moment is the headband. lol
   
  oh and a recommendation on a DAC would be most welcome  I'm still running stuff out of the D10 but I'd prefer if I didn't use a portable source as the DAC at the end of it all.


----------



## SP Wild

The fact that Lehmann is releasing a new line of HA - is a real testament to me, from a business perspective.  Profits of their BCL being cannibalised by these Chinese lines.


----------



## BlackstoneJD

Here is the new Matrix M-Stage that is on sale now. I want analysis please!


----------



## BlackstoneJD

Does that transformer look smaller? Also, who knows what is going on under that casing?


----------



## BlackstoneJD

Quote: 





sp wild said:


> The fact that Lehmann is releasing a new line of HA - is a real testament to me, from a business perspective.  Profits of their BCL being cannibalised by these Chinese lines.


 

 Where did you hear there is a new Lehmann coming out? Link please?


----------



## SP Wild

those pictures point to a superior product - and yes that transformer looks smaller - but shielded.


----------



## BlackstoneJD

Quote: 





sp wild said:


> those pictures point to a superior product - and yes that transformer looks smaller - but shielded.


 

 How do you figure it is superior?


----------



## francisdemarte

Looks nice, even more refined than a real BCL.
   
  The new transformer is low profile EI transformer, its soldered onto the circuit board thus eliminating the need for some wires. It does look smaller, there no indication on the unit itself but I assume it outputs the same amount as the old torodial with the benefit of some shielding. Only testing will determine if it is better, worse, or (most likely) the same. 
   
  I can't make out from the picture but there are also a couple of more black resistors or some type of IC between the transformer and the big gold capacitors. Not sure what they are for.
   
  The RCA inputs/outputs are also now soldered directly onto the board. They look the same as the pictures on page 1 of this thread, the ones on the actual BCL are more "audiophile" grade.
   
  There is also what looks like an extra relay, the little white block next the transformer. I think there was only one on the old board. 
   
  I dig the black color.


----------



## cravenz

Yeah it does look cleaner and better *mumbles*


----------



## SPACEACE

Looks to me the Rca's are mounted direct to the board so that should make them stronger then the original.
   All the internals seem to be the same design as the original so hopefully it still has the same sound?
  I'm not digging the power supply tho, it seems a little small even tho it is sheilded.
  If it can provide enough juice I guess it will work.  It looks like the same supply that A LOT of Chinese companies are using now. 
  Maybe they are cheaper?


----------



## BlackstoneJD

Looks like they shrunk the power supply.


----------



## francisdemarte

No one has confirmed nor denied that the new transformer outputs any different than the old one.


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





blackstonejd said:


> I am canceling my order they shrunk the power supply and the oversized PSU is obviously part of what makes the Lehmann, and every good amp I've ever heard great.


 

 I wouldn't cancel without hearing it.  I am betting it will sound better than the BCL - provided the transformer is up to specification.


----------



## BlackstoneJD

I don't know of any good amp that is using a transformer like that. Also, I'm not sure why Lehmann wold not have implemented these changes already if they really improved the sound. My guess is that these are cost cutting measures pure and simple. All the good amps I know are using the large open transformers. This looks cheaper to me.


----------



## daltonlanny

Hi,
  From looking on their website www.headamp.com, then click 'products', then click 'home headphone amps', the power transformer in the Headamp GS-1 looks sort of similar to the transformer in the new Matix M-Stage. Of course the transformers are made by different manufacturers, but they do look kind of similar on the outside.


----------



## gav007

You can still get the old version of the m stage at Hlly Audio: http://hllyaudio.com/headphone-amplifier/matrix-m-stage-headphone-amplifier-pre-amplifier.html


----------



## francisdemarte

So do Meier Audio amps
   
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/meier3/3.jpg
   
  The transformer just steps down your mains voltage to something usable. As long as it supplies proper voltage, keeping those giant capacitors filled and does not introduce noise it should be fine.  
   
  I've heard some bad things about hllyaudio's service.


----------



## coolfungadget

Quote: 





blackstonejd said:


> I don't know of any good amp that is using a transformer like that. Also, I'm not sure why Lehmann wold not have implemented these changes already if they really improved the sound. My guess is that these are cost cutting measures pure and simple. All the good amps I know are using the large open transformers. This looks cheaper to me.


 
   
  Shielded transformers can reduce the low frequency shake and shorter/zero wire can further reduce the electronic interference. Actually the new transformer we are using is more expensive than the original one. It's the same as the one being use in Matrix mini-i DAC.


----------



## coolfungadget

Quote: 





gav007 said:


> You can still get the old version of the m stage at Hlly Audio: http://hllyaudio.com/headphone-amplifier/matrix-m-stage-headphone-amplifier-pre-amplifier.html


 

 I don't think so.


----------



## coolfungadget

Quote: 





spaceace said:


> Looks to me the Rca's are mounted direct to the board so that should make them stronger then the original.
> All the internals seem to be the same design as the original so hopefully it still has the same sound?
> I'm not digging the power supply tho, it seems a little small even tho it is sheilded.
> If it can provide enough juice I guess it will work.  It looks like the same supply that A LOT of Chinese companies are using now.
> Maybe they are cheaper?


 

 No, it's tailored for Matrix with the laser logo on it.


----------



## coolfungadget

Quote: 





francisdemarte said:


> Looks nice, even more refined than a real BCL.
> 
> The new transformer is low profile EI transformer, its soldered onto the circuit board thus eliminating the need for some wires. It does look smaller, there no indication on the unit itself but I assume it outputs the same amount as the old torodial with the benefit of some shielding. Only testing will determine if it is better, worse, or (most likely) the same.
> 
> ...


 

 Good catch on the additional relay.


----------



## francisdemarte

So $1000 yuan question....What are the specs of the new EI transformer vs. the old one?


----------



## coolfungadget

One more reason for the changes on the original model...is that we don't want this product to be thought as a low cost clone of the BCL.


----------



## BlackstoneJD

Well it isn't a clone anymore.


----------



## gav007

It looks like the size is smaller now to the new version, can you provide the dimension?


----------



## Gruff

Matrix M Stage amp FOR SALE!
   
  I bought my Matrix M Stage about 10 days ago. I love it, but I'm so impressed with headphone listening (this was my first HP setup) that I've decided to order a big fat Audio GD dac and amp.
   
  So, I'm selling my nearly new Matrix M Stage amp. WIll take some photo's now, and put up a listing in the for sale forum shortly. Message me if you're interested (I'm in the UK).
   
  You can get a discount on a barely out of the box original model, with the big, original, toroidal power supply!
   
  (nearly new DacMagic going to too)


----------



## BlackstoneJD

I am confused. Is the new power supply a toroidal. I think it might still be torodial but is an "encapsulated" torodial.


----------



## francisdemarte

Take this for what you will though, I'm not an electrical engineer.
   
  It's a encapsulated torodial like this one:
   
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=TE2265-ND
   
http://media.digikey.com/photos/AlfaMag%20Electronics%20Photos/L01-6373.JPG
   
  I think this is being taken way out of proportion. All the transformer does is take the voltage from your wall plug and step it down to a value that is smaller and won't fry the electronics in the amp.
   
  If it's the US model then 110/120V AC from your wall outlet goes in and 15V AC comes out.
   
  All transformers generate some measure of electric field when they operate. Encapsulated transformers are suppose to be less mechanically and electrically noisy than the normal open type so you can mount them close to sensitive electronics.
   
  Most manufacturers put their transformers in the same box but if you go into the DIY forum you will see the most head-fi'ers puts their transformers in a separate box, probably audiophile overkill but it's just double insurance.
   
  From all the reviews here, eletromagnetic interference and noise wasn't a problem at all with this amp even with the old open transformer in the same box. 
   
  The physical size of the transformer doesn't matter as much as it's output. The amp itself draws the power it needs from those two big capacitors which act as storage and reserves. What makes the BCL interesting is that those caps are huge, 2 x 4700uF, probably way bigger than any headphone really requires. In fact I bet that if you unplug the amp in the middle of playing a song it will probably keep playing for a few seconds until those caps drain.


----------



## sh00t4par

I ordered the M stage from coolfungadget a little over a day ago. Haven't heard anything yet. Does anyone know how long it usually takes to ship? Also how does this amp sound with the Grado RS1i and DacMagic?


----------



## Pariah1

Quote: 





cravenz said:


> Yup, I kinda agree burn in for vast amounts of hours is bordering on rubbish, but I don't want to come to a conclusion on that. I do believe that drivers need some time to really kick in, but how much is the question and I don't think it takes an absurd amount of hours. Just think of it in the case of a shoe that needs some breaking in.
> 
> I'm in total agreement with you on the 702s though and I love 'em; only problem I'm facing at the moment is the headband. lol
> 
> oh and a recommendation on a DAC would be most welcome  I'm still running stuff out of the D10 but I'd prefer if I didn't use a portable source as the DAC at the end of it all.


 

 I'm lucky, never found the headband to be uncomfortable at all (I do have a full and thick head of hair though, at least on top--keep my sides/back shorter...actually my hair on top is only 2 to 3 inches long, but it is thick).
   
  Sorry, I can't give you a recommendation on a DAC, I quit researching them once I bought my DAC Magic (I'm not like a lot of others who keep looking to "upgrade" or try new stuff...at least if I'm totally satisfied with a product; I see no reason to try any other DAC, less or more costly, at all at this point).
   
  But from casual looking around it just seems that for $200 to $300 you can get a DAC that a year or two ago would have cost $300 to $500. Prices have come down. There seems to be some good and objective reviews of some DACs here though (including the Matrix Mini--sounds too warm for my taste...it was briefly compared to the DAC Magic):
   
http://www.headfonia.com/?page_id=3032
   
   
  Quote: 





blackstonejd said:


> I don't know of any good amp that is using a transformer like that. Also, I'm not sure why Lehmann wold not have implemented these changes already if they really improved the sound. My guess is that these are cost cutting measures pure and simple. All the good amps I know are using the large open transformers. This looks cheaper to me.


 

 Perhaps...perhaps not. I'm not a techy, but I've long known that size that does not matter, in all sorts of areas. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
  Quote: 





francisdemarte said:


> So do Meier Audio amps
> 
> http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/meier3/3.jpg
> 
> The transformer just steps down your mains voltage to something usable. As long as it supplies proper voltage, keeping those giant capacitors filled and does not introduce noise it should be fine.


 

  
  Quote: 





francisdemarte said:


> Take this for what you will though, I'm not an electrical engineer.
> 
> It's a encapsulated torodial like this one:
> 
> ...


 

 I think you nailed it; as long as there is no interference from the transformer, and, especially, if the power is the same, then what's the difference? What, are we going to start talking about how the thickness or color of the plastic board used to mount the electronics on effects the SQ?!
   
  The "bigger is better" nonsense is so ingrained in the psyche (especially in the US) that many have a psychological prejudice against anything smaller in similar gear/situations. I used to have a little 4 cylinder Honda Prelude that was a 2.0 liter in high school. A lot of the motor heads who had big and "fast" V6 and even V8 american cars (mustangs, firebirds, camaros, old 70's chevelles, oldsmobiles, etc.) would make fun of it...until they raced me that is. I'd beat 8/10 of those things because their output just wasn't enough to counter their weight (on the less expensive models at least) compared to my little rice runner which had a much better horsepower to weight ratio (yea, I know there are other factors too, but they must not have mattered as much or they were lacking in the bigger engine cars I raced as well, and/or well implemented in my Prelude too). Yea, a few beat me as well, but even most of those were more like a tie or close race. My "2 point slow" turned out not to be so much. Plus it handled way better than any big old boat or rear wheel drive/all the weight on the front car. (Btw, I did and do still like old american cars...for styling at least if not for ride, handling, comfort, power).
   
  Ok, enough off topic. If this new version does end up sounding better then I will be disappointed...except that the version I have sounds so good now that I'm not going to be very upset in any case for it's not like I got a mediocre amp that would jump to a fantastic one with a new version; no I got a great amp that may or may not improve a bit in the SQ with the new version. No big deal.


----------



## Pariah1

Quote: 





sh00t4par said:


> I ordered the M stage from coolfungadget a little over a day ago. Haven't heard anything yet. Does anyone know how long it usually takes to ship? Also how does this amp sound with the Grado RS1i and DacMagic?


 

 About a week.
   
  How do you like those ATH M50's? I'm thinking of getting them for some budget closed cans.


----------



## sh00t4par

At first I didn't like them but after some burn in they have grown on me and they are getting more head time. I can see why so many people like them. I ordered the Shure 750 DJ's to see if I like that sound better for hip-hop, etc. Whichever one I choose the other will be going up for sale here.
  
  Quote: 





pariah1 said:


> About a week.
> 
> How do you like those ATH M50's? I'm thinking of getting them for some budget closed cans.


----------



## applevalleyjoe

Has anyone compared the first version against the latest product?  I would be interested in finding out if the hiss/hum noted in the earlier part of the thread has disappeared.
   
  I would also be interested in learning whether anyone has further upgraded/modded their units, for example: an upgrade in the potentiometer and/or capacitors.


----------



## sh00t4par

Forgot to ask when you say a week I assume that is the time that it arrives and not when it actually ships.
  
  Quote: 





pariah1 said:


> About a week.
> 
> How do you like those ATH M50's? I'm thinking of getting them for some budget closed cans.


----------



## SP Wild

Scientifically - no one should be able to hear any differences between matrixes and BCLs.  For 300 bucks, you get what you receive, be thankful and get on with enjoying the music.  A BCL aint gonna sound 3 times this matrix, I don't care what anybody says.  If I had my way again - my entire chain would be made of chinese products - except the can - actually, the alloy chassis D7000 is Chinese.


----------



## SP Wild

someone here needs a member of trade attached to ID.


----------



## cravenz

Quote: 





pariah1 said:


> I'm lucky, never found the headband to be uncomfortable at all (I do have a full and thick head of hair though, at least on top--keep my sides/back shorter...actually my hair on top is only 2 to 3 inches long, but it is thick).
> 
> Sorry, I can't give you a recommendation on a DAC, I quit researching them once I bought my DAC Magic (I'm not like a lot of others who keep looking to "upgrade" or try new stuff...at least if I'm totally satisfied with a product; I see no reason to try any other DAC, less or more costly, at all at this point).
> 
> ...


 

 Yup, I read that review a few days ago. I was thinking of the DACMagic, but I'll wait to see what Matrix does. I'm not too keen on the Mini-i cos' I don't exactly want a dac/amp together, seeing that I prefer a standalone unit. But yes, I agree about upgrading, so for me, this will be the last step in the process more or less. I just need to make sure I get a decent dac unit


----------



## burgunder

It would be cool to see a DAC matching the M-Stage.


----------



## cravenz

Quote: 





burgunder said:


> It would be cool to see a DAC matching the M-Stage.


 

 I am in total agreement with that


----------



## Pariah1

Quote: 





sh00t4par said:


> At first I didn't like them but after some burn in they have grown on me and they are getting more head time. I can see why so many people like them. I ordered the Shure 750 DJ's to see if I like that sound better for hip-hop, etc. Whichever one I choose the other will be going up for sale here.


 


 Cool, thanks. I don't need a ton of bass (hence why I love the 702's) and would mostly be listening to rock/metal with them.
  
  Quote: 





sh00t4par said:


> Forgot to ask when you say a week I assume that is the time that it arrives and not when it actually ships.


 

 I'm sorry! I meant that it will be at your door in about a week after payment! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  
  Quote: 





sp wild said:


> Scientifically - no one should be able to hear any differences between matrixes and BCLs.  For 300 bucks, you get what you receive, be thankful and get on with enjoying the music.  A BCL aint gonna sound 3 times this matrix, I don't care what anybody says.  If I had my way again - my entire chain would be made of chinese products - except the can - actually, the alloy chassis D7000 is Chinese.


 

 No one should be able to hear the difference between any amps of any price scientifically, but I sure can.
   
  I'm happy to buy cheaper asian gear as well, forget paying crazy markup (well all this stuff is way marked up but some is more reasonable) for "quality" gear made in the us or canada or the uk. Quality gear can and is made everywhere. I think the DAC Magic is made in china, as well as my azur 640a v2 integrated amp. My Usher speakers are and they are great!

  
  Quote: 





cravenz said:


> Yup, I read that review a few days ago. I was thinking of the DACMagic, but I'll wait to see what Matrix does. I'm not too keen on the Mini-i cos' I don't exactly want a dac/amp together, seeing that I prefer a standalone unit. But yes, I agree about upgrading, so for me, this will be the last step in the process more or less. I just need to make sure I get a decent dac unit


 

 Well I didn't just mean the Mini, but also other DACs on there. My DAC Magic is my first DAC and I've had it since about when they came out (I don't know, 3 years ago?) and have had no desire to upgrade or try anything else. I have with other gear (headphone amps of course, cans, and went from receivers to my azur integrated), but not it.


----------



## sh00t4par

So is it normal to hear nothing from coolfungadget for two days after payment has cleared? Does he supply tracking numbers?


----------



## cravenz

Quote: 





sh00t4par said:


> So is it normal to hear nothing from coolfungadget for two days after payment has cleared? Does he supply tracking numbers?


 

 He should, but I requested the tracking number from him, so just pop him a message. He doesn't reply immediately, but he will usually get back to you within 24hours from my own dealing with him.


----------



## coolfungadget

Quote: 





burgunder said:


> It would be cool to see a DAC matching the M-Stage.


 

 Hold on for two weeks. We will have a new DAC released.


----------



## coolfungadget

Quote: 





sp wild said:


> someone here needs a member of trade attached to ID.


 

 I am working on that with "jude" here.


----------



## cravenz

Quote: 





coolfungadget said:


> Hold on for two weeks. We will have a new DAC released.


 

 I'm on hold and eagerly anticipating the DAC, I might just order one and hopefully bring it to the Perth meet  assuming it arrives before the meet and if I can afford the DAC in hope that it will perform better than the mini-i


----------



## ninjowned

I've enjoyed my Matrix M-Stage v1 tremendously so far. I still need to do impressions with it and my DT 880 600ohm, but I can say it drives them fine (using the 20 gain setting).
   
  Also, shipping was almost unbelievably fast for me for anyone still wondering. Ordered Friday received Tuesday? Crazy.
   
  If the v2 does offer improvements, it'll most likely be such a small % that it doesn't bother me that I got the v1 (and I'm kinda anal about things like this). I figure... I saved some money and probably wouldn't notice a small improvement that much. Now if it made a tremendous leap forward (doubtful), I'd be a bit miffed.
   
  Eagerly looking forward to the DAC. Exceptional customer service, quick shipping -- in short, I am one very happy customer


----------



## applevalleyjoe

I've sent several emails to coolfungadget this past week and I have been impressed with the speed of his responses! Every inquiry and/or comment has been answered in detail in no later than 24 hours....now that's what I call customer service!!! As a result, the Matrix M is now on my purchase short list. Coolfungadget has been the most responsive and most  easily accessible retailer that I have ever dealt with...KUDOS TO coolfungadget


----------



## spookygonk

Quote: 





coolfungadget said:


> Hold on for two weeks. We will have a new DAC released.


 

 Now that sounds like it could make a killer combo with the M-Stage (and I'm basing that on absolutely nothing).


----------



## burgunder

Splendid! I'll be looking forward too it.
  Quote: 





coolfungadget said:


> Hold on for two weeks. We will have a new DAC released.


----------



## Pariah1

Quote: 





sh00t4par said:


> So is it normal to hear nothing from coolfungadget for two days after payment has cleared? Does he supply tracking numbers?


 

 This is the only criticism I have of cfg; when I ordered I was not told when it was shipped or was given a tracking number. I didn't mention it before, and it isn't really a big deal, but then others I've ordered from have done this.
   
  I'm not impatient, but I do like to know when gear is arriving (especially if I have to be home to sign for it like I did with the M-Stage...this also wasn't mentioned btw), even if it will be awhile. That is, I really don't mind waiting for weeks, as long as I know when it is coming! I don't like not knowing when something is coming.
   
  So after close to a week I sent cfg a pm and asked about when I could expect the M-Stage and he did provide a tracking number and it was there days after (it was already well on its way).

  
  Quote: 





ninjowned said:


> If the v2 does offer improvements, it'll most likely be such a small % that it doesn't bother me that I got the v1 (and I'm kinda anal about things like this). I figure... I saved some money and probably wouldn't notice a small improvement that much. Now if it made a tremendous leap forward (doubtful), I'd be a bit miffed.


 

 Same here. We'll have to see.


----------



## Bigrock2150

I'd love to see a comparison between the M-stage and the new Schiit Asgard.


----------



## Sid-Fi

Quote: 





coolfungadget said:


> Hold on for two weeks. We will have a new DAC released.


 

 If this new DAC is designed for M-Stage and matches its form conveniently, I will definitely be buying one. CFG, can you share any more information on this to give us a preview? I am sure it will help others to wait and not buy something else. Thank you.


----------



## cravenz

Quote: 





sid-fi said:


> If this new DAC is designed for M-Stage and matches its form conveniently, I will definitely be buying one. CFG, can you share any more information on this to give us a preview? I am sure it will help others to wait and not buy something else. Thank you.


 


   
  then we might end up with the exact same set ups. lol. IE8, D10, Matrix etc. LOL


----------



## Sid-Fi

@ Cravenz
   
  I can't wait to have a full-size rig in addition to our portable setup. D10 with HiFlight topkit and IE8 sure have been an awesome an enjoyable value though. As much as I like the Sennheiser sound, I think I'm gonna get Denon D5000s though. I seriously keep falling asleep to my IE8s since I am so tired in the evenings and they are so dam smooth. It's actually quite frustrating (although I love it while awake), sad but true. LOL


----------



## cravenz

Quote: 





sid-fi said:


> @ Cravenz
> 
> I can't wait to have a full-size rig in addition to our portable setup. D10 with HiFlight topkit and IE8 sure have been an awesome an enjoyable value though. As much as I like the Sennheiser sound, I think I'm gonna get Denon D5000s though. I seriously keep falling asleep to my IE8s since I am so tired in the evenings and they are so dam smooth. It's actually quite frustrating (although I love it while awake), sad but true. LOL


 

 Awwww...not the k70x? I'm at the stage where if I had the cash to splash, I'd get a headphones that would kinda be more fun fun than the k70x though cos' sometimes whilst being at home, I'm looking for the IE8 kinda enjoyment at times. That's not to say that the 70x isn't fun though. It just really depends on the production cos' there are some songs that really still pack the same punch. Maybe I just miss the infamous mid-bass hump of the IE8 jk lol.
   
  But yes, I'm definitely looking forward to a home desktop rig although I never thought I would prior. But if this new DAC synergises well with the Matrix, I'm definitely unto it. I'm now getting used to the idea of supporting these up and coming companies because they become competitive and are forcing the once big well known companies to re-think their strategy and forcing better innovation because really, production is so cheap, but the mark ups are just batshit crazy stupid before.
   
  I just feel that I could be doing so much better than my current D10 as a DAC though I could be wrong. I was thinking of selling on the D10 since when I walk around, I mostly just plug the IE8 direct through the iPhone, but I'll keep it for times when I'm in uni.


----------



## Sid-Fi

Same here, I'm tempted to sell D10 and or IE8 to upgrade faster, but I'm starting a graduate program at college and know I'll totally regret not having D10 > IE8 for laptop use in the library.
   
  As for D5000 vs K70x, I've read a lot on it and it sounds like the Denons are more energetic and have a little more slam, but yet can still pull off classical and jazz fairly well. I think they will be a nice compliment phone for IE8. I don't want to hijack the thread though, so drop me if a PM if you have any more questions or comments.


----------



## Pariah1

Speaking of hijacking...
   
  I don't see the D5000 being competition for the 70x because they are $150 more (right?).
   
  Now the D2000 would be competition. But then we are also comparing closed vs. open cans and they will sound different so that's not a good competition either imo.
   
  In case you don't know, btw (maybe you do) the D2000's have the same drivers as the 5000's and can be modded to turn them into the 5000's. So I'd get the 2000's which you can upgrade later if you want unless you want to get the 5000's used. But then if you got the 2000's used those would be cheaper too.
   
  I've been considering the 2000's myself for years now lol, but the reason I've never gotten them is the description of recessed mid range and loose flabby and over bearing bass. That's not what I want in a SS. I want a neutral, clear, revealing SS and that's what the 702's have for the most part. For "fun" cans I have my Grado 225i's, which I hardly listen to since getting my 702's (since they just don't sound as "hi-fi"). Guess I like accuracy over color and "fun".
   
  Jmo.


----------



## SP Wild

I feel that the D7000 is a half step over the K701 and HD650 level.  Quicker transients with the D7000 is countered by the mostly closed nature - where the K701 has an advantage for being open.  The D5000 has more bass energy than the D7000.  I think the D5000 may have been better square wave response than D7000 - not sure. 
   
  There are three types of recordings that one must take note with the Denon range.  Those tracks mastered to be played on half-size / bookshelf speaker system will have overwhelming bass (boosted bass response for smaller speakers).  Recordings mastered to play well on full-range / full size speakers come up trumps with the D7000.  Some recordings that are compromised to sound good on full range and smaller speakers are also acceptable with the D7000.  I use a software EQ if the bass gets too overwhelming on the D7000 with a mismatched recording.


----------



## BlackstoneJD

<>


----------



## Noobiiee

Any idea how to get these in China, especially Guangzhou since I'm having a trip there next month?


----------



## ninjowned

To people not getting tracking numbers -- check the "Your Ebay Item Has Been Shipped" e-mail.
   
  [size=10pt][size=10pt]It states: Usually I will add a tracking number to the transaction 3-5 days later. Please
 log into your eBay account and check.[/size][/size]
   
  [size=10pt][size=10pt]I was going to request a tracking number, but I checked the item on ebay and a tracking number had been added there, something which ebay doesn't notify us of. [/size][/size]
   
  [size=10pt][size=10pt]Hope this helps someone.[/size][/size]


----------



## francisdemarte

Just noticed that Ray Samual's SS amps also used encapsulated toroidals:
   
http://www.raysamuelsaudio.com/products/hr-2
   
http://www.raysamuelsaudio.com/products/xp-7
   
  Both are $700+ headphone amps.


----------



## BlackstoneJD

I noticed that as well. This amp looks like quality to me, I was just concerned that maybe it is straying too far from Lehmann specs. But it might even be an improvement.
  Quote: 





francisdemarte said:


> Just noticed that Ray Samual's SS amps also used encapsulated toroidals:
> 
> http://www.raysamuelsaudio.com/products/hr-2
> 
> ...


----------



## gav007

Yeah I just pulled a triggered on the new version, I hope it pairs well with the HD600's


----------



## project86

I think you will be very pleased. Short of spending thousands for a very incremental upgrade, the combo is about as good as it gets. Unless of course you prefer a tube sound.


----------



## fluffygdog95

Awesome! I will be running a V-DAC    -   M-Stage   -   HD600. I'm excited. It just left customs today.


----------



## gsilver

Mine shipped a few days ago.
   
  This will be my first dedicated headphone amp, to replace an old HT receiver.
   
  I'll be pairing it with HD-650s.


----------



## Sid-Fi

Just curious if you guys think it would pair better with the HD 600s as opposed to HD 650. I'll be picking up one of them soon.


----------



## sainthoodx

Hey did you guys with the M-Stage and Beyer DT880 / 600ohms get a chance to test the combo? Will one of you please report on the little details of...it?


----------



## Ruffle

This looks like a Lehman clone to me.  Just a lot more affordable.  Does Lehman have anything to do with this project, or it's just a clone?


----------



## fluffygdog95

I just received the M-Stage "Mk2" and am setting it up now. Expect impressions soon!
   
  First edit: Initial impressions versus the Compass. The M-Stage brings a larger soundstage and a scary level of command over transient response. Listening to Infected Mushroom, everything seems to be tighter.
   
  #2: Also, it seems like this amp needs a bit of burn-in. Or maybe it is just my ears. This is a different sound than with which I am familiar.
   
  #3: I'm going to have to hold off more impressions until tomorrow. I need to let this sound really sink in. I also have to try the Denons.


----------



## Sid-Fi

Thanks fluffygdog95. I'm particularly interested in your followup impressions since M-Stage and Audio-gd FUN are my top two upgrade choices, with Nuforce HDP right around there as well.


----------



## TK33

ditto
   
  Hoping to place an order for one of these soon too.  Probably will once I know when I can actually be around when the delivery guy comes knocking.  Always great to hear the first impressions though.


----------



## Balmoral

Quote: 





ruffle said:


> This looks like a Lehman clone to me.  Just a lot more affordable.  Does Lehman have anything to do with this project, or it's just a clone?


 


  I haven't read anything about Lehman having anything to do with the amp...A clone is all, albeit a very good one.  Perhaps someone knows something different.


----------



## lescanard

Quote: 





sainthoodx said:


> Hey did you guys with the M-Stage and Beyer DT880 / 600ohms get a chance to test the combo? Will one of you please report on the little details of...it?


 

 Not quite the DT880 - 600ohms, but today I just received my new DT990 - 600ohms - after about 3-4 hours of some burn-in I am listening through the M-Stage for the first time. I wasn't sure how it would handle the 600ohm phones - have my gain at 10 for my k701s and D2000s - and would like to keep a common gain and not have to switch for each phone unless I have to. My initial first impression is that I am incredibly impressed. Volume wise I just need to bump it up to 1:30-ish - my Denon and AKGs are at 10 o'clock with the Matrix on 10 gain. Controlled, quiet, smooth and really a beautiful soundstage - I do not notice any recessed mids some talk about with these phones.
   
  I've always wanted some Beyers - chose the 990s over the 880s because I wanted a little more on the low end - with strong highs and thought the 880s may be too similar to my k701s. It's early early but I think I'm gonna really love these - they seem to be a combo of what I love about both the Denons and the AKGs - really beautiful detail (esp. on the high end) while some great thump on the low end. Hopefully I'm not being redundant owning these 3 - if so - I'll just sell the one that gets the least head time.
   
  In summary after a first listen - the M-Stage handles these 600ohm Beyers just like I thought it would - this should be a superb match!


----------



## Hank_Venture

Thinking about grabbing this myself, what would be a good DAC to pair it with? as part of a future desktop PC setup.
   
  There was mention of a new DAC a few pages back, so maybe I should just wait until then.


----------



## Sid-Fi

Matrix also makes a D/A amp combo called Mini-i. The DAC seems to be a knock-off of Bel Canto much like M-Stage is of Lehmann BCL. It is supposed to be pretty awesome bang for the buck as well. I just wish they had a version where you are only paying for the DAC and not the headphone stage, but at $320 I guess I'm splitting hairs.
   
  Also, CFG mentioned a few days ago that they are announcing a new DAC in the next week or so. We'll see...


----------



## sainthoodx

Quote: 





hank_venture said:


> Thinking about grabbing this myself, what would be a good DAC to pair it with? as part of a future desktop PC setup.
> 
> There was mention of a new DAC a few pages back, so maybe I should just wait until then.


 

 So a very popular $300ish mid-fi standalone DAC that you could get to match your standalone $300ish mid-fi standalone AMP (standalone: because I personally wouldn't pair an amp/dac combo with a standalone one or the other) is the Musical Fidelity V-DAC - it is incredible an bang/buck ratio. An ever-so slight step up in quality but bigger step up in price is the Cambridge Dacmagic. The V-DAC was definitely the obvious choice for me and my budget and high SQ requirements.

 Read the V-DAC vs Dacmagic post for opinions:
 http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/409435/it-begs-to-be-asked-v-dac-or-dacmagic
   
  More V-DAC opinions:
 http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/391721/musical-fidelity-v-dac-owners


----------



## Pariah1

Quote: 





lescanard said:


> Not quite the DT880 - 600ohms, but today I just received my new DT990 - 600ohms - after about 3-4 hours of some burn-in I am listening through the M-Stage for the first time. I wasn't sure how it would handle the 600ohm phones - have my gain at 10 for my k701s and D2000s - and would like to keep a common gain and not have to switch for each phone unless I have to. My initial first impression is that I am incredibly impressed. Volume wise I just need to bump it up to 1:30-ish - my Denon and AKGs are at 10 o'clock with the Matrix on 10 gain. Controlled, quiet, smooth and really a beautiful soundstage - I do not notice any recessed mids some talk about with these phones.
> 
> I've always wanted some Beyers - chose the 990s over the 880s because I wanted a little more on the low end - with strong highs and thought the 880s may be too similar to my k701s. It's early early but I think I'm gonna really love these - they seem to be a combo of what I love about both the Denons and the AKGs - really beautiful detail (esp. on the high end) while some great thump on the low end. Hopefully I'm not being redundant owning these 3 - if so - I'll just sell the one that gets the least head time.
> 
> In summary after a first listen - the M-Stage handles these 600ohm Beyers just like I thought it would - this should be a superb match!


 

 I've been looking at the both of those Beyers for some time. I may just have to try the 990's (seemed to fit my SS preferences over the 880's too) soon.
   
  That's what's great about this amp, I feel I can match about any can with it that I wish to own.


----------



## cravenz

Quote: 





pariah1 said:


> I've been looking at the both of those Beyers for some time. I may just have to try the 990's (seemed to fit my SS preferences over the 880's too) soon.
> 
> That's what's great about this amp, *I feel I can match about any can with it that I wish to own*.


 






   
  I think that pretty much seals the deal for people with loads of cans and it's a very important feature of the amp.
  
  Quote: 





lescanard said:


> Not quite the DT880 - 600ohms, but today I just received my new DT990 - 600ohms - after about 3-4 hours of some burn-in I am listening through the M-Stage for the first time. I wasn't sure how it would handle the 600ohm phones - have my gain at 10 for my k701s and D2000s - and would like to keep a common gain and not have to switch for each phone unless I have to. My initial first impression is that I am incredibly impressed. Volume wise I just need to bump it up to 1:30-ish - my Denon and AKGs are at *10 o'clock with the Matrix on 10 gain*. Controlled, quiet, smooth and really a beautiful soundstage - I do not notice any recessed mids some talk about with these phones.


 

 you might want to double check if you really have them at 10 gain lol. I feel that at 10 o'clock, though it's listenable, it is rather soft still and I think the 'oompf/musicality', to me (seeing that I'm probably half deaf already'), really kicks in at 12 o'clock with the gain set at 10 db.


----------



## Mr Joboto

Quote: 





hank_venture said:


> Thinking about grabbing this myself, what would be a good DAC to pair it with? as part of a future desktop PC setup.
> 
> There was mention of a new DAC a few pages back, so maybe I should just wait until then.


 

 Get someone to build you a Gamma2?


----------



## lescanard

Quote: 





cravenz said:


> you might want to double check if you really have them at 10 gain lol. I feel that at 10 o'clock, though it's listenable, it is rather soft still and I think the 'oompf/musicality', to me (seeing that I'm probably half deaf already'), really kicks in at 12 o'clock with the gain set at 10 db.


 

 Haha - No - I have actually made a concerted effort to listen to my music at lower levels so I can still listen when I get "up there" in years. Sometimes I have a craving to juice it up a bit - I just resist the urge now. Obviously depends on the actual phones I'm using...


----------



## cravenz

Quote: 





lescanard said:


> Haha - No - I have actually made a concerted effort to listen to my music at lower levels so I can still listen when I get "up there" in years. Sometimes I have a craving to juice it up a bit - I just resist the urge now. Obviously depends on the actual phones I'm using...


 

 hahahaha...quite a smart choice. maybe I should do that as well lol. I'm so screwed


----------



## francisdemarte

Quote: 





mr joboto said:


> Get someone to build you a Gamma2?


 

 Check out the Dr. DAC2 DX, suppose to be pretty close to the Gamma2. 
   
http://www.headfonia.com/?p=4224


----------



## daisangen

Still no comparision between the two versions? I just pulled the trigger and am hoping for the best. At least the MK2 looks very nice and refined inside.


----------



## BlackstoneJD

<redacted>


----------



## sainthoodx

lescanard said:


> Not quite the DT880 - 600ohms, but today I just received my new DT990 - 600ohms - after about 3-4 hours of some burn-in I am listening through the M-Stage for the first time. I wasn't sure how it would handle the 600ohm phones - have my gain at 10 for my k701s and D2000s - and would like to keep a common gain and not have to switch for each phone unless I have to. My initial first impression is that I am incredibly impressed. Volume wise I just need to bump it up to 1:30-ish - my Denon and AKGs are at 10 o'clock with the Matrix on 10 gain. Controlled, quiet, smooth and really a beautiful soundstage - I do not notice any recessed mids some talk about with these phones.
> 
> I've always wanted some Beyers - chose the 990s over the 880s because I wanted a little more on the low end - with strong highs and thought the 880s may be too similar to my k701s. It's early early but I think I'm gonna really love these - they seem to be a combo of what I love about both the Denons and the AKGs - really beautiful detail (esp. on the high end) while some great thump on the low end. Hopefully I'm not being redundant owning these 3 - if so - I'll just sell the one that gets the least head time.
> 
> In summary after a first listen - the M-Stage handles these 600ohm Beyers just like I thought it would - this should be a superb match!








 Thanks, this is hopeful! Any word from the DT880 / 600ohmz crowd??


----------



## project86

Nevermind, figured it out.


----------



## BlackstoneJD

nevermind.


----------



## sh00t4par

I just wanted to say I got the new M Stage today and so far it sounds great. All my HP's sound great even the DT880 600 Ohm. Although I prefer the sound I get with my tube amp with the DT880 but that isn't shocking as the Beyers pair well with tubes. I got great service from Jeffrey and the amp shipped last Friday so I'd say that is pretty fast service. Tomorrow I will be receiving a Grado RS1i that I purchased from a seller on these boards. I am really looking forward to how those sound with this amp!


----------



## Sid-Fi

Gratz on the new gear. I've heard a lot of positive feedback on the RS1i and look forward to your impressions on how it goes with your new M-Stage. I'd also love to hear if/how the sound of your M-Stage changes over time.


----------



## purrin

Ordered my M-Stage (the newer version with the encapsulated toroid) last Thursday, item got shipped on Friday, and I received it yesterday! There's definitely a reason why _coolfungadget _has 100% feedback.
   
  The amp sounds nice with the PS1000. Right now, I actually prefer this amp to the Melos with the PS1000. Bass and treble are extended, there is no hint of treble harshness, and instrument separation is very good. There is no hint of congestion. And oh ya, the amp has very good control and is fast! The driver stage is also very transparent and neutral - you can easily make out the differences when rolling opamps.  After playing around with a few I had on hand, I finally settled on the stock OPA2134 with the PS1000 (there is probably a reason why the OPA2134 is so ubiquitous, but your mileage may vary according to your setup.) 
   
  Here is a summary:
   

 OPA2107 - Some consider it a baby 2 channel OPA627. One of my favorites overall but didn't work well in this setu[. Very clear and clean sounding.  Too airy - typically, I like to pair up the OPA2107 up with grungy sounding driver stages. This opamp didn't work well because of the combination of the PS1000's inherent U curve (treble bump) and cleanliness of the driver stage. But I'm thinking the OPA2107 would work well with Denons and Senn 650s.
 JRC4556 - Actually not bad in terms of sound balance - warm with attenuated treble. There is a reason why Grado uses this cheap chip in the RA1. Ultimately not as fast or clear as the others.
 OPA2604 - Dark sounding - a little bit nasal. This didn't work at all.
 OPA2111 - Very similar to stock OPA2134. I think the bass is a tad less tubby compared to OPA2134, but less in volume.
   
  Hoping to get some OPA627s mounted on an adapter. This would probably be the sound I would be looking for. In closing, I think this amp belongs more on the "musical" (I hate using this term) side than the "straight wire with gain" side.


----------



## ConGrUenCy

Quote: 





sid-fi said:


> Gratz on the new gear. I've heard a lot of positive feedback on the RS1i and look forward to your impressions on how it goes with your new M-Stage. I'd also love to hear if/how the sound of your M-Stage changes over time.


 

 Could you please post your impressions with the Grado phones, since I currently own the Grado Sr225i and am considering buying this amp, since it seems to be an all rounder, unlike certain amps that are nly good for certain impedences (like the LD 1+).


----------



## purrin

^ Listening to my HF2s from the M-Stage right now and I can confirm that these work well very with Grado's. GnR and Scorpions guitar work sound just as crunchy as ever. BTW, this was also a question of mine because I couldn't find a lot information of how this amp (or the BCL) would perform with Grado's. To me, this amp wasn't that expensive, so I just pulled to trigger to find out. Well to my relief this amp does indeed work well with Grado's.
   
  I don't have my SR-80s and RS2s anymore, but I do know (from experience) that you have to be careful with certain solid state amps in regards to Grado's. A bad match can result in awful headaches because the high-mid / low-treble emphasis of these 'phones. My post above regarding the M-Stage with PS1000s also apply to the HF2 (after all, being Grado's they both share similar driver technology). 
   
  This amp is smooth, very smooth - you will not get an ear splitting headache from prolonged listening with Grado's. Without proper amping, the lower end Grado's can have problems (comparatively) with muddy bass and congestion in loud passages. The M-Stage controls these aspects very well. The sound signature is a wee tiny bit side of warm (probably from the OPA2132) - not overly warm - but it's a bit deceptive because the midrange and treble are very smooth, yet still very evident. Bass and treble sounded a bit more extended on the HF2.
   
  Finally, the dip switches on the bottom allow you to have a gain of 1. This is really really nice for high sensitivity 'phones like Grado's because you can have your volume knob set at the 12 - 2 o'clock position, instead of the usual 8-9 o'clock position of many other amps. This was another reason I wanted to at least try this amp out. I had considered the Audio-gd C2, but I think that amp's got an insane amount of gain built-in. I know this sounds like a stupid consideration, but if you've got little kids running around the house who like to turn knobs all the way clockwise, it's an important one.
   
  In regards to the SR225i, it's not nearly as bassy as the HF2, but I feel you will still get good results with this amp. You can always swap opamps to tweak the sound a bit.
   
  As an aside, I've got this amp on for at least 36 hours straight now. It sounds smoother and more detailed now than when it first arrived. I am rather amazed at how good it is considering its price. It does everything solidly well with no weaknesses in any one area. This is one of those amps that does really well in bringing out the best (or worst) aspects of the source - digging out the tiniest details, etc. You open up the amp and you are dumbfounded how a cheap (but good sounding) opamp followed by two pairs of transistors can sound so good. It's probably in the details of the implementation - PCB layout, component selection and quality, and those big ass Nichicon caps in the power supply.


----------



## francisdemarte

Just received my "Lovely Cube" clone of the LBC. I'll be posting my impressions this weekend, probably in a separate thread to keep this one on topic.


----------



## ConGrUenCy

Thanks for the reply purrin. Atm, the main contenders are this one and the Schiit Asgard, since they are both within the same price range.


----------



## purrin

LOL, I might pick up the Schiit too.


----------



## spookygonk

Quote: 





congruency said:


> Thanks for the reply purrin. Atm, the main contenders are this one and the Schiit Asgard...


 

  Bit of an unfortunate name that.


----------



## sainthoodx

Still no word from those testing DT880 / 600ohms with m-stage?


----------



## fluffygdog95

Something just sounds "off" when A/Bed with my Compass (both fed by the V-DAC). I can't figure out what it is. Maybe the amp just needs more time.


----------



## sainthoodx

fluffygdog95 said:


> Something just sounds "off" when A/Bed with my Compass (both fed by the V-DAC). I can't figure out what it is. Maybe the amp just needs more time.









 Fluff, do they sound "off" with every pair of phones you have?



 Can we hear more M-Stage "MK2" impressions? It is very new after all, and we have one potentially negative future review for it so far... 

 -----------EDIT------------

 Aparently Fluff is the only one so far having any "off" issues or giving possibly negative feedback


----------



## purrin

^ my impressions a few pages back were with the MK2 version (encapsulated toroid on the longer length PCB). There was certainly nothing "off" about the sound of mine compared to any of my other amps. It sounded great straight out of the box and its sound has gotten smoother (and perhaps a little bit more detailed and faster) since then. I purchased the M-Stage based on project86's original review and excellent description of its qualities; it has exactly met my expectations of it.


----------



## purrin

Quote: 





congruency said:


> Thanks for the reply purrin. Atm, the main contenders are this one and the Schiit Asgard, since they are both within the same price range.


 

 In regards to the more traditional Grado's such as the SR225, one thing I maybe didn't mention is that if you are looking for an warm amp that attenuates the treble a bit, the M-Stage certainly is not it. My intention was to run the M-Stage with my Sony X which itself is a warm source - which has resulted in exactly what I was looking for. The HF2 and PS1000 aren't as trebly compared to other Grado's. So again, your mileage could vary. Just something to think about since you are also considering the Schiit.


----------



## aspenx

Thanks project86 for the review.
   
  I really appreciate it that you compared this to the Luxman P-1u.
  Reason is; I happened to have tried out my current headphones, W1000x, with the Luxman and really liked it. I have also tried the Lehmann and thought that they sounded somewhat similar and your review seemed to suggest that I'd like the M-Stage.
   
  Before I make the plunge, anyone hear has tried the M-Stage with the W1000x or similar cans?


----------



## mhcarlos

Thank's project86 or the review and everyone else for the copious feedback on this thread. I just received mine a few days ago and I'm currently enjoying it with my K701. It sounds great out of the box with the source straight out of my iMac (no DAC).


----------



## cravenz

Quote: 





mhcarlos said:


> Thank's project86 or the review and everyone else for the copious feedback on this thread. I just received mine a few days ago and I'm currently enjoying it with my K701. It sounds great out of the box with the source straight out of my iMac (no DAC).


 

 how'd you find it in comparison to the MingDa overall if you don't mind me asking?


----------



## Zaek

Hi all,  just wondering if M-Stage is better than the built-in amp on Lavry Da11. I intend to get M-Stage to drive my HD650 as Da11 isnt that great for driving HD650 (is good but not great). 
   
  Any opinions will be greatly appreciated!


----------



## TK33

I assume you got the new version of the M-Stage?  I just placed an order for one earlier today to use with my k701 as well. 
  Quote: 





mhcarlos said:


> Thank's project86 or the review and everyone else for the copious feedback on this thread. I just received mine a few days ago and I'm currently enjoying it with my K701. It sounds great out of the box with the source straight out of my iMac (no DAC).


----------



## mhcarlos

Quote: 





cravenz said:


> how'd you find it in comparison to the MingDa overall if you don't mind me asking?


 
   
  I don't have the audio terms for it, but for some reason, the Ming Da sounds more laid back than the M-Stage. I mainly use the K701 on both amps, and to a limited extent, the ER4P (or EER4S S -- with 75 ohm impedance adapter). Neither amp does much for my Grados and M50s.
   
  Music seems to sound faster and more rousing on the M-Stage than the Ming Da (or the amp for that matter). On the Ming Da, I also swapped in the free JJ Tesla EL34 tubes, and it actually does sound smoother. The Ming Da is the more powerful amp of course. It's warmer, and very pleasant and musical. The M-Stage though, when I first used it with the K701, made me think that this was really how I expected the K701 to sound (lots of detail, huge soundstage).
   
  I really have yet to make more detailed impressions, but I was quite surprised with the M-Stage right out of the box. I would say the sound quality is on par with the Ming Da, and the M-Stage doesn't have as much burn-in time as the Ming Da, so if burn-in does work with amps, perhaps the M-Stage would get even better. (I've become a believer in headphone burn-in for full-size headphone, at least, as I've experienced significant sound changes I both the K701 and the M50s)
   
  I'll try to get more impressions soon...

  
  Quote: 





tk33 said:


> I assume you got the new version of the M-Stage?  I just placed an order for one earlier today to use with my k701 as well.


 

 Yup it's the new version. I think you'll be happy with it. I was happy with the K701 *without* amping (that is until the bass suddenly disappeared after 150 hours or so and than just as mysteriously resurfaced later), but with the M-Stage, it was like the K701 started taking steroids. I'm very pleased, although again, I'll be trying to take more notes between the M-Stage and the Ming Da.


----------



## Aquanote

which one´s better then: new or old model? is the old model still being sold?


----------



## gav007

Quote: 





aquanote said:


> which one´s better then: new or old model? is the old model still being sold?


 

 Apparently the new model is better since it's more refined of the first version, but they sound identical.  I do not believe the old version is being sold anymore, but you might be able to pick one up used.


----------



## purrin

^ It looks like the changes with the new version are an encapsulated power supply mounted on a longer PCB board extending to the input jacks - thus no more external wires from the input jack into the board. I doubt the sound quality would change, but the new version is probably quieter (less noise).


----------



## gsilver

Hi. Can someone explain to me the dip switch settings? The instructions that came with the amp were in Chinese and minimal at best. I'm running HD-650s and have set the #1 dip switch to the on position on each side.
   
  It sounds pretty good so far, but I'm worried that I may have the gain set too high.


----------



## purrin

```
1 off 2 off 0db 1 on 2 off 10db 1 off 2 on 18db 1 on 2 on 20db
```


----------



## cravenz

mmm...eagerly anticipating this DAC that Matrix are coming up with...itchy fingers.


----------



## reiserFS

Anyone had a chance to test the Matrix M-Stage with the DT770/80 or Darth Beyer yet?


----------



## francisdemarte

First Impressions of my "Lovely Cube" are up!
   
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/501046/first-impressions-lovely-cube-semi-diy-amp-lehmann-black-cube-linear-clone
   
  In short, it sounds fantastic, if want to save a little and have some DIY experience!


----------



## sh00t4par

[size=medium]Just wanted to post some impressions on use of this amp with Beyer DT 800/600 and Grado RS1i. Just quickly on the Beyer you definitely need the 20 gain setting on and even then it's not as loud as my WA3+. As far as the RS1i to me the highs are just too shrill. I have to adjust my volume during songs to save my ears. I don't tend to listen loud either. I am using the 10db gain setting. This may get better with more burn in. ​[/size]


----------



## burgunder

Quote: 





cravenz said:


> mmm...eagerly anticipating this DAC that Matrix are coming up with...itchy fingers.


 

 Hehe me too, luckily I'm going on vacation for 3 weeks, so I hope to see some impressions when I get home.


----------



## Sid-Fi

Then again we haven't heard a word from Jeffrey in awhile...


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





sh00t4par said:


> Just wanted to post some impressions on use of this amp with Beyer DT 800/600 and Grado RS1i. Just quickly on the Beyer you definitely need the 20 gain setting on and even then it's not as loud as my WA3+. As far as the RS1i to me the highs are just too shrill. I have to adjust my volume during songs to save my ears. I don't tend to listen loud either. I am using the 10db gain setting. This may get better with more burn in. ​


 


 I use the 10DB with the T1 and Denon D7000 and 701 works well on myamp.


----------



## francisdemarte

Quote: 





sh00t4par said:


> [size=medium]Just wanted to post some impressions on use of this amp with Beyer DT 800/600 and Grado RS1i. Just quickly on the Beyer you definitely need the 20 gain setting on and even then it's not as loud as my WA3+. As far as the RS1i to me the highs are just too shrill. I have to adjust my volume during songs to save my ears. I don't tend to listen loud either. I am using the 10db gain setting. This may get better with more burn in. ​[/size]


 

 I agree 20DB is a little extreme, you should be at ear splitting levels. I also think you might be introducing some distortion and noise at that level of amplification. Do you have the volume of your source all the way up?


----------



## sh00t4par

Quote: 





francisdemarte said:


> I agree 20DB is a little extreme, you should be at ear splitting levels. I also think you might be introducing some distortion and noise at that level of amplification. Do you have the volume of your source all the way up?


 

 No the volume is about 2-3 o'clock compared to the Woo at 10 for normal listening. It's not a huge deal I just like the Woo more with the DT880. I just sold it though and ordered a MAD Ear+ HD so for now the Matrix is my only amp. I like the Matrix and will definitely be staying with me. I love the amp with my Shure 750DJ.


----------



## dudefromearth

Want to make absolutely sure:
   
  I am from Europe and am seriously getting the amp. Europe is 220 volts, but does the amp definitely have a 50hz option?


----------



## Balmoral

@ Dudefromearth - It doesn't have a user selectable option built into the amp if that's what you're asking, but long as you tell him which you need he will take care of it for you so you get the correct one.


----------



## purrin

Quote: 





sh00t4par said:


> [size=medium] As far as the RS1i to me the highs are just too shrill. ​[/size]


 

 Just curious, have the amp's highs smoothed out with further use? With the brighter Grado's, you can always change op-amps. OPA2604 gives a dark sound. JRC4556 with its warmth and attentuated treble work well too.


----------



## Pariah1

Quote: 





cravenz said:


> I think that pretty much seals the deal for people with loads of cans and it's a very important feature of the amp.


 

 Yep. I'm finally listening to it with my 225i's and it gives them more energy and speed than my EF-1. They do sound more shrilly, but only on bright material at high volume levels. It's better than the more muffled and rolled off sound of the EF-1 imo.
  
  Quote: 





purrin said:


> Here is a summary:
> 
> 
> OPA2107 - Some consider it a baby 2 channel OPA627. One of my favorites overall but didn't work well in this setu[. Very clear and clean sounding.  Too airy - typically, I like to pair up the OPA2107 up with grungy sounding driver stages. This opamp didn't work well because of the combination of the PS1000's inherent U curve (treble bump) and cleanliness of the driver stage. But I'm thinking the OPA2107 would work well with Denons and Senn 650s.
> ...


 
   
  Thanks for that!
   
  One reason I got this amp over some others was because it is easy to roll opamps with it. Several users said I wouldn't care to, that it sounds so good stock, and so far they are right! But it's nice to know the option is there and I might want to experiment myself sometime.
  
  Quote: 





congruency said:


> Could you please post your impressions with the Grado phones, since I currently own the Grado Sr225i and am considering buying this amp, since it seems to be an all rounder, unlike certain amps that are nly good for certain impedences (like the LD 1+).


 

 See above. It sounds good. It doesn't hide the 225i's brightness, but I don't find it over bearing. And it makes them rock more than my EF-1 does.
  
  Quote: 





purrin said:


> In regards to the more traditional Grado's such as the SR225, one thing I maybe didn't mention is that if you are looking for an warm amp that attenuates the treble a bit, the M-Stage certainly is not it.


 

 Yep. It reveals the SS of cans, it doesn't hide it under "warmth".
   
  Quote: 





mhcarlos said:


> with the M-Stage, it was like the K701 started taking steroids. I'm very pleased


 
   
  Oh yea, it's made mine open up and sing. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  
  Quote: 





purrin said:


> the new version is probably quieter (less noise).


 


 I have heard no noise to speak of in my version one. Black, dead quiet, even turned all the way up. If you are talking about background hiss.
  
  Quote: 





francisdemarte said:


> First Impressions of my "Lovely Cube" are up!
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/501046/first-impressions-lovely-cube-semi-diy-amp-lehmann-black-cube-linear-clone
> 
> In short, it sounds fantastic, if want to save a little and have some DIY experience!


 

 Congrats! Looks like a fun and money saving project!


----------



## dsissitka

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *francisdemarte* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> I agree 20DB is a little extreme, you should be at ear splitting levels. I also think you might be introducing some distortion and noise at that level of amplification. Do you have the volume of your source all the way up?


 
  Quote: 





sh00t4par said:


> No the volume is about 2-3 o'clock compared to the Woo at 10 for normal listening. It's not a huge deal I just like the Woo more with the DT880. I just sold it though and ordered a MAD Ear+ HD so for now the Matrix is my only amp. I like the Matrix and will definitely be staying with me. I love the amp with my Shure 750DJ.


 
   
   
  Just another data point...
   
  I found my M-Stage comfortably powered my DT880/600s with my source's volume set to 90% and my M-Stage's gain set to 18 dB. I would usually hang around 12 o'clock. 1 o'clock was borderline and 2 o'clock was probably unhealthy.
  Just
  another data point...
   
  I found my M-Stage comfortably powered my DT880/600 with my source's volume set to 90% and my M-Stage's gain set to 18 dB. I would usually hang around 12 o'clock. 1 o'clock was borderline and 2 o'clock was probably unhealthy.
  Just another data point...
   
  I found my M-Stage comfortably powered my DT880/600 with my source's volume set to 90% and my M-Stage's gain set to 18 dB. I would usually hang around 12 o'clock. 1 o'clock was borderline and 2 o'clock was probably unhealthy.
  Just another data point...
   
  I found my M-Stage comfortably powered my DT880/600 with my source's volume set to 90% and my M-Stage's gain set to 18 dB. I would usually hang around 12 o'clock. 1 o'clock was borderline and 2 o'clock was probably unhealthy.


----------



## Balmoral

Has anyone compared the original with the V.2 yet?  Just curious to hear if the sound signature has changed at all.


----------



## BmWr75

Just subscribing via a post since this BB software is broken.


----------



## TK33

Just logged on to eBay to check for my tracking info and noticed that CFG has this listed at 5% off for the next few days (in case anyone is in the market for this amp).  Its currently listed at $275.45 shipped.  Too bad I ordered mine prior to the sale.


----------



## dudefromearth

Quote: 





tk33 said:


> Just logged on to eBay to check for my tracking info and noticed that CFG has this listed at 5% off for the next few days (in case anyone is in the market for this amp).  Its currently listed at $275.45 shipped.  Too bad I ordered mine prior to the sale.


 

 Same here man. At least we get the Matrix earlier


----------



## BlutoSlice

subscribe.


----------



## TK33

Quote: 





dudefromearth said:


> Same here man. At least we get the Matrix earlier


 


 Very true...enjoying mine right now


----------



## fluffygdog95

I have decided to part with the Matrix M-Stage MK2. :c Not because of the sound, as it is a great unit. I may pick one up again later. If anyone is interested, I have it listed in the for sale forum. The unit is practically brand new. Maybe 10 hours on it. :\


----------



## spookygonk

Why are you getting rid of it, fluffster?


----------



## fluffygdog95

College is going to be expensive. 
   
  I loved the amp. The V-DAC   -   M-Stage   -   Sennheiser HD600 w/cable combo was wonderful.


----------



## kenken1985

My new m stage arrived!!! Now paring it up with K701 and use monitor 02 US as source. First impression is the improvement in detail and bass. I also tried to use Sony NWZ-X1060 but found out that the effect is not as good as monitor 02 US, maybe X1060 does not match K701? Anyway, I actually have a 3.5mm to RCA cable that is plugged into one of the RCA input of m stage for use of my X1060 as source sometime, but I want to ask if that will demage the RCA port of m stage if there will be a long time that I left the 3.5mm side of  the cable unplugged while constantly plugging the cable itself into the amp?


----------



## cravenz

I don't think it's an issue? Most of us leave the cable plugged in.


----------



## kenken1985

My m stage is becoming a little bit hot after running for 5 hours, it that normal?


----------



## cravenz

Mine gets warm at best. I wouldn't say it's hot but yeah. Should be fine. I've had it on for about 7 hour intervals the last few days with half an hour to an hour breaks to play safe


----------



## kenken1985

ic. Thanks very much. I will run it for some time longer and see what happens. By the way, does this amplifier need burn in and for how long?


----------



## ConGrUenCy

Please give us your impressions after burn in.


----------



## spookygonk

Quote: 





fluffygdog95 said:


> College is going to be expensive.
> 
> I loved the amp. The V-DAC   -   M-Stage   -   Sennheiser HD600 w/cable combo was wonderful.


 

 Ah, sorry to hear that.


----------



## rinthe

Just ordered my M-Stage to go with my K701. Can't wait for it!


----------



## David.M

very nice review. $275 SS + well scalable and can handle anything = sounds like a winner to me !


----------



## Pariah1

Quote: 





kenken1985 said:


> . By the way, does this amplifier need burn in and for how long?


 

 I don't believe in burn in, so no. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Just listen to it and get used to it's sound signature. It's a nice one, musical and clear. Listening to it right now with the 702's and it sounds great!


----------



## Pariah1

Quote: 





rinthe said:


> Just ordered my M-Stage to go with my K701. Can't wait for it!


 
   
  Congrats! I think you will like the combo. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Love your avatar btw...I actually asked my gf to do one like that for me but no way that is going to happen!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





  
  Quote: 





david.m said:


> very nice review. $275 SS + well scalable and can handle anything = sounds like a winner to me !


 

 I think so.


----------



## kenken1985

Yes, it already sound excellent when I hear it now. But it will always be great if it can improve further


----------



## Pariah1

Quote: 





kenken1985 said:


> Yes, it already sound excellent when I hear it now. But it will always be great if it can improve further


 

 For sure. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Imo it gets "better" by more listening because you keep picking up the things it does so well (from easily detectable ones--like the articulate bass--to smaller flourishes/nuances) and find nothing it does badly.


----------



## kenken1985

Quote: 





pariah1 said:


> For sure.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Exactly, now I find so many song/music that I didn't like before is actually very good. There are just so many detail/soundstage/etc that didn't show up in my previous $20ish earbud and mae the songs sounds boring. Now with improvement (to which is a very great improvement since within a month I get my self my first DAC in life(monitor 02 US), my first amp in my life(matrix m stage) and my first high rank headphone in my life(K701).) these sony just transform itself!!!! (While 6 Franklin just run away from my home
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)  Now I am digging my own music database hard to discover more good music from it.


----------



## coolfungadget

http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/503754/matrix-cube-dac#post_6802660


----------



## DarkScythe

Well, I tried out my friend's M-stage and enjoyed it. I'm still not entirely sure I hear as huge of a difference as he claims, but I broke down and purchased one, since that sale was ending last night.
  Picked up a mk2 for $253.41. Now I hope it's worth it. Damn it, head-fi..


----------



## Pariah1

Quote: 





darkscythe said:


> Well, I tried out my friend's M-stage and enjoyed it. I'm still not entirely sure I hear as huge of a difference as he claims, but I broke down and purchased one, since that sale was ending last night.
> Picked up a mk2 for $253.41. Now I hope it's worth it. Damn it, head-fi..


 

 I got the version 1 for $248 shipped and I think it's worth it.
   
  With more and more listening you should appreciate it more and more imo. The little nuances and flourishes you missed before in your music stand out more.


----------



## Pariah1

Quote: 





kenken1985 said:


> Exactly, now I find so many song/music that I didn't like before is actually very good. There are just so many detail/soundstage/etc that didn't show up in my previous $20ish earbud and mae the songs sounds boring. Now with improvement (to which is a very great improvement since within a month I get my self my first DAC in life(monitor 02 US), my first amp in my life(matrix m stage) and my first high rank headphone in my life(K701).) these sony just transform itself!!!! (While 6 Franklin just run away from my home
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 That's the mark of "hi-fi" imo, the ability to make songs or material that is not all that exciting on a "low/mid-fi" setup grab you.
   
  For instance, I've long been a fan of Peter Gabriel...at least his hits. I finally got all of his albums and so have been going through them all with the Matrix and 702's (and my new speakers). Songs that I would skip before on albums I've had for years because they were "boring" I'm finding are actually very intricate, detailed, and interesting, NOT because of the direct drive of the song, but because of all the little nuances and flourishes brought out in the material by better gear.
   
  So with albums I've long had I'm rediscovering the "skippers" on them, finding myself going "Oh, this IS an interesting song" and appreciating all the little details that make it so that when I last listened to the same song (years ago in some instances) and I had lower-fi gear, I just could not appreciate.
   
  It's great to have a setup that makes you want to listen to material you haven't in years or ever really have, to see how it sounds with it. And of course doing the same with material you've always liked and hearing it brought up a notch by your new gear is wonderful as well.


----------



## pekingduck

So did you get slapped in the face? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  Quote: 





pariah1 said:


> Love your avatar btw...I actually asked my gf to do one like that for me but no way that is going to happen!


----------



## Pariah1

Quote: 





pekingduck said:


> So did you get slapped in the face?


 

 Lol, no, we were playing around (her topless) and I grabbed my 702's and said they would make a good top lol. She was like yea right, and I said well better than the 225i's! Those are small and uncomfortable! Then she "tried them on" and I threatened to take a picture and that's when I got the Nope! Not going to happen! attitude. So I left it alone. If I did have the pic I'd never post it on the internets anyway, whether she cared or not...I do.


----------



## dsissitka

Quote: 





coolfungadget said:


> http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/503754/matrix-cube-dac#post_6802660


 

 Hm. Is it just me or did that thread disappear?


----------



## cravenz

Quote: 





dsissitka said:


> Hm. Is it just me or did that thread disappear?


 

 yeah it did. I can't get to it.


----------



## pekingduck

Probably got deleted bcos coolfungadget is not a MOT..


----------



## sainthoodx

So to get the good soundstage and transparent sound with the m-stage, what do you set the windows speaker config to? 2.1, 5.1, 7.1, or headphone? 

 Also, does anyone have experience with best Creative Control Panel settings for x-fi cards that go well with the m-stage?


----------



## rinthe

MOT?
  
  Quote: 





pekingduck said:


> Probably got deleted bcos coolfungadget is not a MOT..


----------



## cravenz

Quote: 





rinthe said:


> MOT?


 
   
  Member of the Trade


----------



## BlutoSlice

Quote: 





sainthoodx said:


> So to get the good soundstage and transparent sound with the m-stage, what do you set the windows speaker config to? 2.1, 5.1, 7.1, or headphone?
> 
> Also, does anyone have experience with best Creative Control Panel settings for x-fi cards that go well with the m-stage?


 
   
  The transparrent sound is passive it just means that the amp doesn't alter (colour)  the sound coming from your sorce so its on my default.  The sound stage is not 2.1 vs 5.1 its the presentation of the audio . Im not the best to describe this so look up soundstage in one of the audiophile glossarys and you will get the idea.
   
  Set-up wise for music you would set the config to input and output 2 channel, for other x-fi enchancements\ settings I'd start with all DSP and optimisations off and work up see what sounds better to your ears.


----------



## BmWr75

Sold some NOS Genalex KT-66 tubes for a profit.......part of the proceeds are going towards new AKG K702s and Matrix M-stage Matrix amp.


----------



## purrin

Quote: 





kenken1985 said:


> Yes, it already sound excellent when I hear it now. But it will always be great if it can improve further


 

 Replace opamp with something like BB OPA2107 or OPA627 x 2 on browndogs.  The stock OPA2134 is pretty good, but there are better. I'm using OPA2107 right now. I think I got them for $12 each. Bass is better defined and sound is more clear. The stock OPA2134 sound like they got a bit of haze to them from the midrange and up. Also, I feel the OPA2134 does have a tiny bit of a midbass hump though, so many will still prefer it.


----------



## Pariah1

Quote: 





bmwr75 said:


> Sold some NOS Genalex KT-66 tubes for a profit.......part of the proceeds are going towards new AKG K702s and Matrix M-stage Matrix amp.


 

 I think you'll like/love the combo, I do. I enjoy it so much that I feel no (ok, maybe just a little 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) need to upgrade either my cans or amp or try something different. Especially my amp.

  
  Quote: 





purrin said:


> Replace opamp with something like BB OPA2107 or OPA627 x 2 on browndogs.  The stock OPA2134 is pretty good, but there are better. I'm using OPA2107 right now. I think I got them for $12 each. Bass is better defined and sound is more clear. The stock OPA2134 sound like they got a bit of haze to them from the midrange and up. Also, I feel the OPA2134 does have a tiny bit of a midbass hump though, so many will still prefer it.


 

 Haha! I told you some opamp rolling may be of benefit!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  That 2107 is sounding good (bass is better defined? is that even possible?!); where did you get them from?


----------



## Frank I

Interesting about opamps being better. The Matrix sounds sou good. I sold my 701 and Shure 840 and replaced them with the T1 and D7000 and even though I added the Decware CSP-2  I still feel the Matrix is a huge bargain. The T1 sounds great on the Decware but it also sounds so good with the matrix. The D7000 prefers the solid state amp. I do not see myself parting with the matrix. The t1 does really reach its true potential with the tube amp but the Matrix drives it like a champ.


----------



## purrin

Quote: 





> That 2107 is sounding good (bass is better defined? is that even possible?!); where did you get them from?


 

http://www.mouser.com/Search/Refine.aspx?Keyword=opa2107
   
  Still available as of 7/28.  Stock tends to be low though, grab them while you can.  Looks the price increased from when I bought mine. As far as bass being even more defined - yes it's possible. I never felt the OPA2132 had the last word in bass definition, partly because of its slight bass "tubbyness" for lack of a better term. More noticeable is the transparency and delicateness in the highs. _Be sure to burn in the opamps_. My initial poor assessment of the OPA2107 was based on a new chip (and brand new M-Stage). I slapped a well burned in OPA2107 and the results were dramatically different.

  
  Quote: 





frank i said:


> Interesting about opamps being better. The Matrix sounds sou good. I sold my 701 and Shure 840 and replaced them with the T1 and D7000 and even though I added the Decware CSP-2  I still feel the Matrix is a huge bargain. The T1 sounds great on the Decware but it also sounds so good with the matrix. The D7000 prefers the solid state amp. I do not see myself parting with the matrix. The t1 does really reach its true potential with the tube amp but the Matrix drives it like a champ.


 
   
  Same predicament with my Melos and PS1000. Though overall, I prefer the Melos, I like to go back and forth and certainly appreciate the good solid state presentation of the Matrix M-Stage. Agreed that the Denons do better with solid state.
   
  Don't get me wrong, I like the OPA2134 / OPA2132 and think it's a great opamp; but there is a reason the OPA2107 costs about five times more (~$15), and the OPA627 even more. The differences are subtle though and the law of diminishing returns still applies.


----------



## purrin

I haven't taken mine totally apart yet, but anyone have schematics on it? I'm thinking of doing some mods. I assume that there are input caps that can removed (assuming your source has minimal DC offset. Maybe put in fast soft recovery rectifier diodes? (Don't know what parts are currently used in it)


----------



## francisdemarte

Quote: 





purrin said:


> I haven't taken mine totally apart yet, but anyone have schematics on it? I'm thinking of doing some mods. I assume that there are input caps that can removed (assuming your source has minimal DC offset. Maybe put in fast soft recovery rectifier diodes? (Don't know what parts are currently used in it)


 

 I have the schematics of the original Lehmann in my "Lovely Cube" thread in my sig. If your going to remove the input caps, you will need to either jumper them or scratch out the copper track and run the inputs directly to the pot.


----------



## rinthe

Just wondering, is my M-Stage supposed to run hot? Because it's pretty hot right now.


----------



## cravenz

Quote: 





rinthe said:


> Just wondering, is my M-Stage supposed to run hot? Because it's pretty hot right now.


 

 Mine doesn't get to very high heat levels. After about 7 hours, it feels warm, but definitely not hot. I'm using the first version of the M-Stage.
   
  On a side note, does anyone here have any idea if the M-Stage is able to run the LCD-2s decently well or will it not be ideal?


----------



## purrin

Quote: 





francisdemarte said:


> I have the schematics of the original Lehmann in my "Lovely Cube" thread in my sig. If your going to remove the input caps, you will need to either jumper them or scratch out the copper track and run the inputs directly to the pot.


 

 Awesome thanks.  The schematics bear out what I thought it was - but always helps to be sure so I don't blow something up.  I'm probably just going to remove the inputs and jumper them since my v2 version of the M-Stage has the inputs soldered directly to the PCB.
   
  Also, I've noted the design allows an opportunity to bias the opamp a little bit into class-A.  I'll have to figure this out as I haven't measured the voltages yet.


----------



## cravenz

Quote: 





purrin said:


> http://www.mouser.com/Search/Refine.aspx?Keyword=opa2107
> 
> Still available as of 7/28.  Stock tends to be low though, grab them while you can.  Looks the price increased from when I bought mine. As far as bass being even more defined - yes it's possible. I never felt the OPA2132 had the last word in bass definition, partly because of its slight bass "tubbyness" for lack of a better term. More noticeable is the transparency and delicateness in the highs. _Be sure to burn in the opamps_. My initial poor assessment of the OPA2107 was based on a new chip (and brand new M-Stage). I slapped a well burned in OPA2107 and the results were dramatically different.
> 
> ...


 

 hey, how do I know which opa2107 is the one? Pardon my ignorance on this. Ebay seems to have a few going around as well. Not sure which to look at.


----------



## purrin

Quote: 





cravenz said:


> hey, how do I know which opa2107 is the one? Pardon my ignorance on this. Ebay seems to have a few going around as well. Not sure which to look at.


 
   
  You want the 595-OPA2107AP / OPA2107AP which is the DIP-8 package (not surface mount). On Ebay, just look for DIP 8. I'm sure Ebay would be OK since it's not a expensive rare chip which would be more likely to be a knock-off.


----------



## cravenz

Quote: 





purrin said:


> You want the 595-OPA2107AP / OPA2107AP which is the DIP-8 package (not surface mount). On Ebay, just look for DIP 8. I'm sure Ebay would be OK since it's not a expensive rare chip which would be more likely to be a knock-off.


 

 thanks for that. I'll read more into this a tad later. Any other opamps to have a look at?


----------



## BlutoSlice

Just pulled the trigger from coolfun...  lets hope my delivery is as speedy as most report.


----------



## asrphani

Can someone tell me how many days it'd normally take to get it to US, if I'm ordering it today..


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





asrphani said:


> Can someone tell me how many days it'd normally take to get it to US, if I'm ordering it today..


 

 Mine took six days from order. Very fast with EMS


----------



## cravenz

Quote: 





frank i said:


> Mine took six days from order. Very fast with EMS


 

 Frank, did you order the LCD-2s? Kinda trying to figure out how it would pair up with the M-Stage and if it would even work sufficiently well in powering 'em.


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





cravenz said:


> Frank, did you order the LCD-2s? Kinda trying to figure out how it would pair up with the M-Stage and if it would even work sufficiently well in powering 'em.


 

 I was on the waiting list but I bought the T1 and the D7000 and then decided to buy Skylab Decware amp for my T1. I still am a little nervous about the LCD2. Pad issues and they are not the most comfortable cans I heard. Listened to them at the NJ meet and was not knocked off the floor. The matrix will handle them with not problems. Not so sure about OTL tube amps as I did not try it with the Decware.The proble I see with them is that it will be difficult down the road to get replacement parts especially since they use JMoney pads and he is not reliable plus Audeze customer service is no where to be found from people waiting on foam emails go unanswered so for me it was best to wait.


----------



## cravenz

Quote: 





frank i said:


> I was on the waiting list but I bought the T1 and the D7000 and then decided to buy Skylab Decware amp for my T1. I still am a little nervous about the LCD2. Pad issues and they are not the most comfortable cans I heard. Listened to them at the NJ meet and was not knocked off the floor. The matrix will handle them with not problems. Not so sure about OTL tube amps as I did not try it with the Decware.The proble I see with them is that it will be difficult down the road to get replacement parts especially since they use JMoney pads and he is not reliable plus Audeze customer service is no where to be found from people waiting on foam emails go unanswered so for me it was best to wait


 

 Ah. Nice. How do you find the Decware in comparison to the M-Stage with the T1s that is (I'm leaning towards the T1 or the LCD-2s, but Skylab did tell me that the LCD-2s would have the biggest bass impact of the lot and I'd like that in cans). I'm at the point where I would prefer not to have to upgrade my amp if possible and to get something that will drive whatever cans I decide to its near full potential. I know the 800s work very well with the M-Stage on the basis that it is likened to the BCL which debuted the HD800s.
   
  You've raised some good points about the LCD-2 that I haven't given much thought into. How did you find the LCD-2s though? I've trialed the T1 and HD800, but they were both not exactly side by side so it was on separate occasions and with different music.


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





cravenz said:


> Ah. Nice. How do you find the Decware in comparison to the M-Stage with the T1s that is (I'm leaning towards the T1 or the LCD-2s, but Skylab did tell me that the LCD-2s would have the biggest bass impact of the lot and I'd like that in cans). I'm at the point where I would prefer not to have to upgrade my amp if possible and to get something that will drive whatever cans I decide to its near full potential. I know the 800s work very well with the M-Stage on the basis that it is likened to the BCL which debuted the HD800s.
> 
> You've raised some good points about the LCD-2 that I haven't given much thought into. How did you find the LCD-2s though? I've trialed the T1 and HD800, but they were both not exactly side by side so it was on separate occasions and with different music.


 
  The T1 with the Decware is much better than the Matrix. It really expanded the soundstage and added if you can believe more detail with speed and dynamics and it sounds great in my main system. LOL Wife wont let me buy a second one for just the cans she said move it in and out. I really was not wowed with the LCD2 but at a meet you really do not get the time needed for a fair evaluation. The bass on the T1 is very very dood and transparency is at another level and it plays great with the Matrix as well. Besided the bass on the D7000 is the best of all cans out there so I sold the 701 and 840. Very happy with the setup so far. Buy the T1 and you will be happy. I prefer them over the HD800 as well.


----------



## cravenz

Quote: 





frank i said:


> The T1 with the Decware is much better than the Matrix. It really expanded the soundstage and added if you can believe more detail with speed and dynamics and it sounds great in my main system. LOL Wife wont let me buy a second one for just the cans she said move it in and out. I really was not wowed with the LCD2 but at a meet you really do not get the time needed for a fair evaluation. The bass on the T1 is very very dood and transparency is at another level and it plays great with the Matrix as well. Besided the bass on the D7000 is the best of all cans out there so I sold the 701 and 840. Very happy with the setup so far. Buy the T1 and you will be happy. I prefer them over the HD800 as well.


 

 thanks, duly noted. I might have to find a way to do a whole upgrade if that is the case! lol. But me being a student, that ain't gonna be all too easy. Gonna have to give it some thought when I have the time. Thanks again Frank!


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





cravenz said:


> thanks, duly noted. I might have to find a way to do a whole upgrade if that is the case! lol. But me being a student, that ain't gonna be all too easy. Gonna have to give it some thought when I have the time. Thanks again Frank!


 

 Start with the headphone first and then when you have money you can add the amp.


----------



## cravenz

Quote: 





frank i said:


> Start with the headphone first and then when you have money you can add the amp.


 

 Bigger difference that way? I'll definitely have to see how it sounds out of the M-Stage itself I reckon. I'm even half thinking that I might sell the 702 cos' it seems that the T1 is all that and better though with less sound stage


----------



## SP Wild

The T1 is gonna be at a whole different level to the K701 - Soundstage like that of the HD800, ie massive - is not necessarily a good thing.  I was actually very much leaning towards the T1 - my guess is that they are more "neutral" than HD800 despite some opinions going around that the T1's are lush.


----------



## cravenz

Quote: 





sp wild said:


> The T1 is gonna be at a whole different level to the K701 - Soundstage like that of the HD800, ie massive - is not necessarily a good thing.  I was actually very much leaning towards the T1 - my guess is that they are more "neutral" than HD800 despite some opinions going around that the T1's are lush.


 

 I've sampled both the T1 and the HD800s and the only one left I'd like to try are the LCD-2s.
   
  I know soundstage is not everything and I've actually mentioned several times in comparison in a couple of other threads. I've heard the T1s and 702s side by side, but it was not on my own rig and so I could not come to a proper conclusion.
   
  On the test setup I listened to, it was from a CD transport hooked up to the Meier Symphony amp and my impressions were that the T1s came off a little bright though more realistic in sound and more accurate. I found for some reason, the 702s to sound very very distant and I didn't like that, but I've never experienced that on my own home rig; this made the T1s sound well, compressed and to some extent, it was fine with me due to the fact that the 702s just sounded way too distant as if I was a whole mile away from the music. I can't help but think that the T1s would then sound more compressed on my home rig as well and I'm not sure I want that. The imaging and instrument placement of the T1s were fantastic all else considered.
   
  All that said, I can see why someone felt the 702s might also be better, but this is comparing the 702s on my home rig to the T1s I tested out which was not from my own rig. But on the test rig, the T1s won. So I don't believe that the 702s are beaten by a whole lot. It does seem that yes, the T1s do it all better than the 702s, but not by the significant margin of $1,000.
   
  On the 800s and T1s, to be honest, I might think the 800s were more neutral, but I don't know these terms very well. The 800s definitely would do very very well with jazz and instrument based music. Not that the T1s wouldn't, but I think the 800s will be better and that seems to be the consensus around here as well. The soundstage of the 800s are larger than the T1s, the T1s are semi-closed cans after all.


----------



## asrphani

Quote: 





frank i said:


> Mine took six days from order. Very fast with EMS


 
  wow thats really fast.I just got 14days before my friend returns back from US.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  and btw your name reminded me of Franky Four Fingers (Snatch),just the name.


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





cravenz said:


> I've sampled both the T1 and the HD800s and the only one left I'd like to try are the LCD-2s.
> 
> I know soundstage is not everything and I've actually mentioned several times in comparison in a couple of other threads. I've heard the T1s and 702s side by side, but it was not on my own rig and so I could not come to a proper conclusion.
> 
> ...


 

 I auditioned the HD800s and didn't care for them - I didn't feel that they warranted the cost over the technical improvements over the K701.  If you think the HD800s are neutral - what on earth are you going to think of the LCD2s - these are polar opposites ...much in the same vein as the HD650 vs K701 opposing philosophies.  Incidently I clump K701, HD800 and T1 on the same philosophical spectrum.
   
  Perhaps you are able to perceive the K701being distant when you have a direct point of reference with the T1 - without it it's not noticeable at all.  Kinda like the recessed midrange in the D7000 - much more obvious when compared to directly with another can - but less so when there is no other point of reference.  I always hear this distant quality of the K701 with the BCL - when I am listening purely to K701 it isn't at all unpleasant.  However if I've been listening to my other cans for a while first then switch over - it irritates me.  It seems so relative.


----------



## cravenz

Quote: 





sp wild said:


> I auditioned the HD800s and didn't care for them - I didn't feel that they warranted the cost over the technical improvements over the K701.  If you think the HD800s are neutral - what on earth are you going to think of the LCD2s - these are polar opposites ...much in the same vein as the HD650 vs K701 opposing philosophies.  Incidently I clump K701, HD800 and T1 on the same philosophical spectrum.


 

 Which is why I might end up liking the LCD-2s cos' as much as I've liked he 702s, I really can't tolerate listening to them with some genres of music. I'd definitely agree that they are on the same side of neutral, but I think the 800s are more neutral than the T1s with the 702s being more neutral than the 800s.
   
  The things that are making me question the LCD-2s is the amplification issue, comfort and the forward sound signature. I am not sure I could deal with the latter two over extended periods. I love my IE8s as IEMs and after sampling the SM3s, I really don't think I like the forward sound signature though it's technically better than my IE8s. The IE8s are pretty much the IEM version of the HD650s so yes, I have the polar opposites and I've gradually realised, I'm gearing towards something more towards the opposite. I want something fun, not something to analyse music with, generally speaking. That said, I still enjoy the 702s, just not as much as my IE8s seeing that I don't listen too much at home and I don't have a whole lot of jazz, classical at the moment.
   
  I like the laid back sound of the IE8s, but I'd also like a tad more sparkle on the treble which I think is the only thing that is missing. I've tried the HD650s and I didn't like the bass, but it might have just been the setup I had. I want something that packs an impact and has sub-bass. The 800s had quality in the bass department, but not exactly all the quantity in the world. Maybe I've turned into a basshead due to my IE8s, but I still have the bass dialed down and I know some that can't even take it on minimum. I actually think the mid-bass hump gives the IE8s the bass impact more authority as well, something that the HD650s didn't have. But sound signature wise, they were both very similar and the 800s are the polar opposite of Sennheiser offerings of late. If I had the money, I'd get cans to compliment each other.
   
  All in all, I'm aware of the opposite sound signatures of the 702s and 650s. But I've decided that I want to enjoy my music, and neutrality might just not be it for me. I appreciate it though, just well.


----------



## cravenz

Quote: 





sp wild said:


> Perhaps you are able to perceive the K701being distant when you have a direct point of reference with the T1 - without it it's not noticeable at all.  Kinda like the recessed midrange in the D7000 - much more obvious when compared to directly with another can - but less so when there is no other point of reference.  I always hear this distant quality of the K701 with the BCL - when I am listening purely to K701 it isn't at all unpleasant.  However if I've been listening to my other cans for a while first then switch over - it irritates me.  It seems so relative.


 

 Not really. I have the 555s at home to play with as well and the 702s in all honestly, do not sound as distant as when I was there testing out both side by side. I actually got annoyed listening to it, but I'm glad it doesn't sound like that when I am at home (I also did this testing when I was at the Perth meet with the 702s and other cans around including the 800s, but not the T1s). I've heard enough of the 702s at home to know that's not the effect I hear, but I understand what you are saying. I'm just almost near certain that it isn't the case. Put it this way, I always have the IE8s before or after I listen to the 702s. Yes, I feel the 702s are distant, but not as distant as the day when I heard it. I was struggling to hear artefacts on the 702s and the T1s just put them there, on my side.


----------



## SP Wild

Well the Matrix should be able to drive the LCD2s volume wise more than sufficiently - whether it is optimal current/resistance wise I really don't know. 
   
  You're the first to draw attention to the fact that the LCD-2s may sound a bit too "forward".  I never thought of it like that - the LCD2s are devoid of the 300 - 400 hz hump of all popular dynamic cans... actually the D7000 doesn't have too much of it either... something to keep an open ear on.  I do wonder with all the praise - where is the negative? there must be a negative somewhere.


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





cravenz said:


> Not really. I have the 555s at home to play with as well and the 702s in all honestly, do not sound as distant as when I was there testing out both side by side. I actually got annoyed listening to it, but I'm glad it doesn't sound like that when I am at home (I also did this testing when I was at the Perth meet with the 702s and other cans around including the 800s, but not the T1s). I've heard enough of the 702s at home to know that's not the effect I hear, but I understand what you are saying. I'm just almost near certain that it isn't the case. Put it this way, I always have the IE8s before or after I listen to the 702s. Yes, I feel the 702s are distant, but not as distant as the day when I heard it. I was struggling to hear artefacts on the 702s and the T1s just put them there, on my side.


 

 Hmmm...perhaps it's your source...are you still using the D10?   If it's working well for you then keep it - better dacs start to expand the soundstage which perhaps makes the K701 even more distant.  If so it just goes to show - component matching is more critical than state of the art components.   The MingDa has a narrower soundstage than the BCL - I prefer the narrow and "focussing" effect of the MD sounstage for the K701.
   
  But yeah - I think one should have cans on both sides of the so called "neutral" debate - I find recordings are also recorded on one side or the other of the debate - it seems studios also can't decide which one is "neutral".


----------



## cravenz

Quote: 





sp wild said:


> Well the Matrix should be able to drive the LCD2s volume wise more than sufficiently - whether it is optimal current/resistance wise I really don't know.
> 
> You're the first to draw attention to the fact that the LCD-2s may sound a bit too "forward".  I never thought of it like that - the LCD2s are devoid of the 300 - 400 hz hump of all popular dynamic cans... actually the D7000 doesn't have too much of it either... something to keep an open ear on.  I do wonder with all the praise - where is the negative? there must be a negative somewhere.


 

 I'm waiting for the rebound myself. Plenty of people have given the 800s and the T1s hell.
   
  I guess I'm afraid of a forward/quick presentation when I'm used to my IE8s which are very much laid back.


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





cravenz said:


> I'm waiting for the rebound myself. Plenty of people have given the 800s and the T1s hell.
> 
> I guess I'm afraid of a forward/quick presentation when I'm used to my IE8s which are very much laid back.


 

 I just checked the graph of the Shure se530 IEMS which I own - I suspected that it didn't have that mid hump - I was right.  But it starts to roll -off well before 1khz - and I fond the SE530 a tad more forward than the HD650 (not such a bad thing really - quite good actually).  The se530 is also more rolled off in the treble.
   
  This means the LCD2 is going to be more forward than se530 with less treble rolloff - making it sound more forward yet again...interesting... I think so long as the treble is lowered to counter the forwardness it should be OK (the LCD seem to do this)
   
  P.S. Whoah....the IE8s fall way on the other side of neutral.


----------



## cravenz

Quote: 





sp wild said:


> P.S. Whoah....the IE8s fall way on the other side of neutral.


 

 lol. and I have the IE8s and the 702s. interesting combination eh? lol.


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





cravenz said:


> lol. and I have the IE8s and the 702s. interesting combination eh? lol.


 

 Except the IE8s have better transient response. so yeah its a good thing.


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





cravenz said:


> I've sampled both the T1 and the HD800s and the only one left I'd like to try are the LCD-2s.
> 
> I know soundstage is not everything and I've actually mentioned several times in comparison in a couple of other threads. I've heard the T1s and 702s side by side, but it was not on my own rig and so I could not come to a proper conclusion.
> 
> ...


 


 The T1 IMO are not bright nor lush. I used 5 different amps and also heard three different tube amps withy the T1 and I can at least to my ears and in many different systems it is with confidence I say that the T1 stomps the 701/702 cans. While the AKG are great buys they are not even close. The T1 has everything the 701 are missing bass,pristine highs and a fantastic midrange. They are the best cans I have heard suited to my music and as always my opinion and others most certainly prefer other cans to the T1 and as always its whatever floats your boat. No right or wrong.


----------



## francisdemarte

Quote: 





purrin said:


> Awesome thanks.  The schematics bear out what I thought it was - but always helps to be sure so I don't blow something up.  I'm probably just going to remove the inputs and jumper them since my v2 version of the M-Stage has the inputs soldered directly to the PCB.
> 
> Also, I've noted the design allows an opportunity to bias the opamp a little bit into class-A.  I'll have to figure this out as I haven't measured the voltages yet.


 
   
  Let me know if you like the change! I've been debating weather or not it will be worth the trouble to remove the input caps as well.


----------



## purrin

Quote: 





cravenz said:


> thanks for that. I'll read more into this a tad later. Any other opamps to have a look at?


 
   

 BB OPA627 x2 (surface mount and you'll need adapters - ebay usually has pre-soldered to an adapter)
 BB OPA2111 (DIP fits straight in)
 BB OPA2604 (DIP fits straight in) - dark sounding, some like, some hate.
 BB OPA2132 (DIP fits straight in) - higher grade opa2134 - some say little to no difference
 AD797 x2 (will need adapters)
 AD825 x2 (will need adapters - just type in ad825 in ebay)
 Audio-gd.com HDAMs: OPA-Earth, OPA-Sun, OPA-Moon


----------



## purrin

Quote: 





francisdemarte said:


> Let me know if you like the change! I've been debating weather or not it will be worth the trouble to remove the input caps as well.


 
   
  Looks like I'm not going to do it. One of my sources that I like to use for the M-Stage is my Sony X which has a 0.15 voltage offset, which I just measured. That's a wee bit higher than I feel comfortable with, especially with my PS1000s.
   
  However I am seriously considering an adapter (with resistor) to bias the OPA2107 more into class A.  Maybe ~ 5ma.


----------



## francisdemarte

Quote: 





purrin said:


> BB OPA627 x2 (surface mount and you'll need adapters - ebay usually has pre-soldered to an adapter)
> BB OPA2111 (DIP fits straight in)
> BB OPA2604 (DIP fits straight in) - dark sounding, some like, some hate.
> BB OPA2132 (DIP fits straight in) - higher grade opa2134 - some say little to no difference
> ...


 
   
  I wouldn't buy expensive opamps like the OPA627 and AD825 over ebay. This risk of getting a fake is way too high.
   
  Also Burson audio also sells discrete opamps http://bursonaudio.com/burson_opamp.htm they do require at least 12v, not sure if the m-stage can do that.


----------



## Kuze

Spotlight seems to be on the Matrix for this month, think I'll buy one, I'm interested if anyone wants to sell me theirs.


----------



## cravenz

Quote: 





purrin said:


> BB OPA627 x2 (surface mount and you'll need adapters - ebay usually has pre-soldered to an adapter)
> BB OPA2111 (DIP fits straight in)
> BB OPA2604 (DIP fits straight in) - dark sounding, some like, some hate.
> BB OPA2132 (DIP fits straight in) - higher grade opa2134 - some say little to no difference
> ...


 

 thanks!


----------



## project86

Quote: 





francisdemarte said:


> I wouldn't buy expensive opamps like the OPA627 and AD825 over ebay. This risk of getting a fake is way too high.
> 
> Also Burson audio also sells discrete opamps http://bursonaudio.com/burson_opamp.htm they do require at least 12v, not sure if the m-stage can do that.


 


 I still run the stock chip on my M-Stage, but I have used the Burson opamps in an old Pioneer Elite CD player. I can highly recommend the Burson stuff (they also have a low jitter clock and a voltage regulator, also nice), and would love to hear how their opamp upgrade sounds in the M-Stage. Maybe one of these days....


----------



## Kuze

Well if anyone going to buy this they better do it today, Bing cash back ends in a couple hours and you could save yourselves 20 bucks.


----------



## JamesLan

Sweet!


----------



## Kuze

http://www.bing.com/shopping/LG-42LD520-42-LCD-TV/search?q=LG%20tv&p1=[CommerceService%20scenario%3d%22sum%22%20docid%3d%2267CA821FC052135F0001%22%20a%3d%22pa%22]&wf=Commerce&FORM=ENCA13
   
  Click "go to store" for the seller that has ebay, then go your My eBay and you should see cash back logo in the upper left hand side, only works for most stuff with buy it now.


----------



## BlutoSlice

I think coolfungadget is the only official seller.. so thats who I bought mine from.


----------



## purrin

Quote: 





francisdemarte said:


> I wouldn't buy expensive opamps like the OPA627 and AD825 over ebay. This risk of getting a fake is way too high.
> 
> Also Burson audio also sells discrete opamps http://bursonaudio.com/burson_opamp.htm they do require at least 12v, not sure if the m-stage can do that.


 
   
  The M-Stage should be able to handle the Bursons. I measured the voltage on the M-stage, it's +/-15V which is 30V rail-to-rail (which is very nice). Soldered two resistors on the OPA2107 to push it into class A - ended up staying up half the night listening...


----------



## cravenz

Quote: 





purrin said:


> The M-Stage should be able to handle the Bursons. I measured the voltage on the M-stage, it's +/-15V which is 30V rail-to-rail (which is very nice). Soldered two resistors on the OPA2107 to push it into class A - ended up staying up half the night listening...


 

 I'd love to hear your impressions on the different opamps if you end up testing any more


----------



## Kuze

Quote: 





blutoslice said:


> I think coolfungadget is the only official seller.. so thats who I bought mine from.


 
   
  Thanks for the heads up, that's where I'll be buying mine too.


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





project86 said:


> I still run the stock chip on my M-Stage, but I have used the Burson opamps in an old Pioneer Elite CD player. I can highly recommend the Burson stuff (they also have a low jitter clock and a voltage regulator, also nice), and would love to hear how their opamp upgrade sounds in the M-Stage. Maybe one of these days....


 
  Can you see maybe they will give you a loaner for a review. I am curious but to be honest the Matrix sound so good not sure it will be any better


----------



## purrin

Quote: 





cravenz said:


> I'd love to hear your impressions on the different opamps if you end up testing any more


 

 As I mentioned, I'm now using the BB OPA2107 biased into class A with a cheap mod - see http://tangentsoft.net/audio/opamp-bias.html. (The OPA2107 has a reputation of responding well to being biased into class A.) Basically, I soldered 4.7k ohm resistors from the top of the pins 4 to 1 and then 4 to 7.
   
  Now this setup sounds much different from the stock setup. IMO it pushes the amp to another level and the results are rather jaw dropping. The retrieval of low level information, rendering of harmonics, and clarity is now quite astounding. It's hard to describe. I'm not talking about hearing stuff I've never heard before. But it's more like I'm hearing certain new specific qualities to stuff that I've heard before. This is particularly noticeable from the midrange to the highest treble registers. For example, whereas before, percussion such as high-hats and cymbals tended to have a homogeneous quality (even with the OPA2107 not pushed into class A), I can now hear very very different qualities, of how and where the sticks hit the surface, the quality of the metal and how the ringing perpetuates. The same holds true for guitar, how the strings are plucked, the individual vibrations of each string, the feedback and distortion settings on the guitar amp, etc. This of course also applies to noise in the recording, but you hear not only hiss, but the quality of it - the individual grains that make up the hiss.
   
  On the track _Daughter _from _Pearl Jam's Rearview Mirror CD,_ I used to be able to make out someone saying _something _before the band began the song. With the OPA2107 biased into class A, it now becomes very obvious. You can very _clearly _hear someone say "Are you guys ready" in the background - just above the individuals grains of hiss. 
   
  BTW, I tried the class A mod with the stock OPA2132. It does improve it, but not nearly as much as the OPA2107. The above setup really reveals how much the stock OPA2132's bass sounds "tubby". Tubby in the sense of a plastic food container tub. The downside to the above change is that the amp becomes less warm.
   
  I'll be taking a closer look at the OPA2111 next since I upon an initial listen, I didn't find it offensive, and it doesn't cost a ton of money (like the OPA627s, not to even mention the Bursons).


----------



## cravenz

Quote: 





purrin said:


> As I mentioned, I'm now using the BB OPA2107 biased into class A with a cheap mod - see http://tangentsoft.net/audio/opamp-bias.html. (The OPA2107 has a reputation of responding well to being biased into class A.) Basically, I soldered 4.7k ohm resistors from the top of the pins 4 to 1 and then 4 to 7
> Now this setup sounds much different from the stock setup. IMO it pushes the amp to another level and the results are rather jaw dropping. The retrieval of low level information, rendering of harmonics, and clarity is now quite astounding. It's hard to describe. I'm not talking about hearing stuff I've never heard before. But it's more like I'm hearing certain new specific qualities to stuff that I've heard before. This is particularly noticeable from the midrange to the highest treble registers. For example, whereas before, percussion such as high-hats and cymbals tended to have a homogeneous quality (even with the OPA2107 not pushed into class A), I can now hear very very different qualities, of how and where the sticks hit the surface, the quality of the metal and how the ringing perpetuates. The same holds true for guitar, how the strings are plucked, the individual vibrations of each string, the feedback and distortion settings on the guitar amp, etc. This of course also applies to noise in the recording, but you hear not only hiss, but the quality of it - the individual grains that make up the hiss.
> 
> On the track _Daughter _from _Pearl Jam's Rearview Mirror CD,_ I used to be able to make out someone saying _something _before the band began the song. With the OPA2107 biased into class A, it now becomes very obvious. You can very _clearly _hear someone say "Are you guys ready" in the background - just above the individuals grains of hiss.
> ...


 

 Thanks. Mmmm...do all of them require soldering work? I am a klutz with DIY i.e. never done it so I don't really want to do anything that isn't just a clip on. But I'm intrigued seeing that the sound does change by a fair bit.


----------



## purrin

Quote: 





cravenz said:


> Thanks. Mmmm...do all of them require soldering work? I am a klutz with DIY i.e. never done it so I don't really want to do anything that isn't just a clip on. But I'm intrigued seeing that the sound does change by a fair bit.


 

 The OPA2111 and OPA2107 in DIP are just drop ins.  The soldering work I was referring to for the OPA2107 was to bias it into class A (two resistors on top of the chip pins - and fairly precise work).


----------



## cravenz

Quote: 





purrin said:


> The OPA2111 and OPA2107 in DIP are just drop ins.  The soldering work I was referring to for the OPA2107 was to bias it into class A (two resistors on top of the chip pins - and fairly precise work).


 

 ah lol. I'm not touching the soldering, but I might try out the dip. Interested to see how it might change the sound  thanks for the heads up by the way!


----------



## francisdemarte

I'd also suggest you try out a pair of ADA4627-1, its suppose to be the next big thing.
   
  You can get free samples from AD's site. They are mono SOIC and require soldering to a Brown Dog adapter.


----------



## kenken1985

I heard that SS amp can be better from a better power source. Has anyone modded the power supply of M stage?


----------



## francisdemarte

The M-Stage's power supply is built on to the board like the AMB CK2III. In order to use a separate supply you'll need to completely by-pass it. Probably not worth the trouble in my opinion, since the improvements are probably not audible.
   
  If your interested in going that route check out the Lovely Cube thread in my sig. I am using the external power supply from my Head Direct EF5 amp.


----------



## JoetheArachnid

Well, that was 45 pages of interesting reading! I'm basically sold on buying a ~$250 amp (albeit not right now), but I still can't decide between the M-Stage or the Schiit Asgard. I'm leaning more towards the M-Stage because whilst I've heard negative opinions about the Asgard I haven't yet seen post that gives a negative comment, other than that it's very revealing.
  The M-Stage also has more features than the Asgard, with two inputs, adjustable gain, also running cooler.
   
  Anybody got comparisons sound-wise? I've read through the entire threads for both amps, but still can't make a solid conclusion.


----------



## Kuze

Same boat bud, after reading both threads i went for the M-Stage, also planned on holding out for the Valhalla but this seems to be the one... for now.


----------



## Pariah1

Quote: 





joethearachnid said:


> Well, that was 45 pages of interesting reading! I'm basically sold on buying a ~$250 amp (albeit not right now), but I still can't decide between the M-Stage or the Schiit Asgard. I'm leaning more towards the M-Stage because whilst I've heard negative opinions about the Asgard I haven't yet seen post that gives a negative comment, other than that it's very revealing.
> The M-Stage also has more features than the Asgard, with two inputs, adjustable gain, also running cooler.
> 
> Anybody got comparisons sound-wise? I've read through the entire threads for both amps, but still can't make a solid conclusion.


 

 Yea, one reason I went with the M-Stage over several other amps was because of the adjustable gain and option to opamp roll (haven't done that yet though). It was also cheaper than most of the amps I was looking at. At the time the Asgard wasn't really on the radar though. I haven't really looked at it because once I got the M-Stage I knew I was done (at least for awhile). Sure it'd be nice to order it and a/b them and sell which one I liked the least back, but I'm not worried about it (I'm not a constant tinkerer with hi-fi like many others though). You could always do that though, that's the only way you'll know for sure which one you like better.
   
  And while the M-Stage is revealing, I also find it musical. Not colored musical, but refined and truly "hi-fi" musical. And revealing/transparent/neutral is what hi-fi is or should be imo anyway.


----------



## daisangen

I've been listening with this amp for three weeks and I'm delighted how it sounds with K701.
   
  Last night I made an impulse-purchase when I saw Sennheiser HD 650 for 244€ on Thomann. I can't wait to pair them with this amp, BCL being Sennheiser's promo/demo gear and stuff.
   
  Also, if you're reading this, coolfungadget; we want more information regarding the Matrix CUBE.


----------



## JoetheArachnid

Quote: 





pariah1 said:


> Yea, one reason I went with the M-Stage over several other amps was because of the adjustable gain and option to opamp roll (haven't done that yet though). It was also cheaper than most of the amps I was looking at. At the time the Asgard wasn't really on the radar though. I haven't really looked at it because once I got the M-Stage I knew I was done (at least for awhile). Sure it'd be nice to order it and a/b them and sell which one I liked the least back, but I'm not worried about it (I'm not a constant tinkerer with hi-fi like many others though). You could always do that though, that's the only way you'll know for sure which one you like better.
> 
> And while the M-Stage is revealing, I also find it musical. Not colored musical, but refined and truly "hi-fi" musical. And revealing/transparent/neutral is what hi-fi is or should be imo anyway.


 

 The other thing on my bias is that on the Asgard thread they all seem like whining fanboys who are incredibly protective of their new toy, whereas here people seem more open and helpful. Maybe it's just me.
   
  Also, what DID happen to that info on the Cube? I was going to get a Musiland 02 US, but if there's an affordable-but-awesome DAC that'll look good next to the M-Stage for the same price or a little more I'd go for it.
  D'oh... I think I may have just made up my mind by mistake when typing that.


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





pariah1 said:


> Yea, one reason I went with the M-Stage over several other amps was because of the adjustable gain and option to opamp roll (haven't done that yet though). It was also cheaper than most of the amps I was looking at. At the time the Asgard wasn't really on the radar though. I haven't really looked at it because once I got the M-Stage I knew I was done (at least for awhile). Sure it'd be nice to order it and a/b them and sell which one I liked the least back, but I'm not worried about it (I'm not a constant tinkerer with hi-fi like many others though). You could always do that though, that's the only way you'll know for sure which one you like better.
> 
> And while the M-Stage is revealing, I also find it musical. Not colored musical, but refined and truly "hi-fi" musical. And revealing/transparent/neutral is what hi-fi is or should be imo anyway.


 

 The only thing missing in regards to the Asgard is with the Matrix you cannot cook Bacon and Eggs like you can with the Asgard. Also with the Matrix you can play any headphone including my T1 and denon D7000 as well as 701 and everything else you can throw at it. Not so with the Asgard only low impedance works. So it is a one trick pony


----------



## JoetheArachnid

Quote: 





frank i said:


> The only thing missing in regards to the Asgard is with the Matrix you cannot cook Bacon and Eggs like you can with the Asgard. Also with the Matrix you can play any headphone including my T1 and denon D7000 as well as 701 and everything else you can throw at it. Not so with the Asgard only low impedance works. So it is a one trick pony


 
   
  But yeah, I am now almost certain that I'm going to opt for the M-Stage, and maybe the Cube if it's in my price range.


----------



## Pariah1

Quote: 





joethearachnid said:


> The other thing on my bias is that on the Asgard thread they all seem like whining fanboys who are incredibly protective of their new toy, whereas here people seem more open and helpful. Maybe it's just me.


 

 Interesting. I haven't read in the thread there so... Again, I'm fully satisfied with the M-Stage and unless I hear about some sub $300 amp that can blow it away I'm just not looking.
   
  I try to be objective when evaluating gear. I am critical and try not to let the fact that I spent my money on the gear get in the way of what I really think of it. If I think I made a bad decision, that the gear, to me, sucks (or at least isn't worth what I paid for it), that I got suckered, I can admit it (and I have made some bad or at least not optimal decisions with gear getting into this hi-fi hobby).
   
  I don't feel that way at all with this amp. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  
  Quote: 





frank i said:


> with the Asgard only low impedance works. So it is a one trick pony


 

 Really? I didn't know that. Well there's really no need for me to even worry about it then, like if it had come out a little earlier it would have been a good (or even better) choice for me over the M-Stage.


----------



## Pariah1

Quote: 





joethearachnid said:


> kwkarth being pretty rude to you on that thread just now... I really don't think he's helping the Asgard's cause by outright denying criticism.


 

 Lol, sounds like a tool...or maybe a shill? You can't deny criticism with something so subjective as one's like/dislike of hi-fi gear! There is NO right or wrong here! I'm not going to get offended if someone lists everything I have in my sig as throwaway crap that their dog shouldn't even have to listen to. That's fine, I enjoy it and will continue to do so regardless!


----------



## kenken1985

Quote: 





francisdemarte said:


> The M-Stage's power supply is built on to the board like the AMB CK2III. In order to use a separate supply you'll need to completely by-pass it. Probably not worth the trouble in my opinion, since the improvements are probably not audible.
> 
> If your interested in going that route check out the Lovely Cube thread in my sig. I am using the external power supply from my Head Direct EF5 amp.


 

 Thank you very much! I am studying the post now


----------



## francisdemarte

Quote: 





pariah1 said:


> Lol, sounds like a tool...or maybe a shill? You can't deny criticism with something so subjective as one's like/dislike of hi-fi gear! There is NO right or wrong here! I'm not going to get offended if someone lists everything I have in my sig as throwaway crap that their dog shouldn't even have to listen to. That's fine, I enjoy it and will continue to do so regardless!


 

 Wow, I just read a few post and I agree, total fanboys running rampant in that thread. I had high hopes for the Shiit as a maker of competitively priced, American made original designs. Maybe in Version 2 of the Asgard they will spring for real heat sinks instead of using the case as a giant hand burning heat sink. 
   
  Beware those 'audiophile' types that tell you cables made of un-obtainium make a huge difference and that having op amps in your amp is akin to killing babies and kicking puppies.


----------



## Pariah1

Quote: 





francisdemarte said:


> Wow, I just read a few post and I agree, total fanboys running rampant in that thread. I had high hopes for the Shiit as a maker of competitively priced, American made original designs. Maybe in Version 2 of the Asgard they will spring for real heat sinks instead of using the case as a giant hand burning heat sink.
> 
> Beware those 'audiophile' types that tell you cables made of un-obtainium make a huge difference and that having op amps in your amp is akin to killing babies and kicking puppies.


 

 Lol, exactly right. And me too, I wouldn't at all mind buying an US based product for once!
   
  And sorry to be so harsh, but when that kind of nonsense abounds it's just plain silly and not to be tolerated by more rational minds.
   
  I'll say it right now too: The M-Stage is not "THE BEST" amp EVER, at it's price range or any range. None are. This is simply too subjective. Not to mention that no one has tried every headphone amp since they began to come out to be qualified to say which is "the best" in any price range. Impossible. All we can hope to really claim is that we like an amp and feel it is good/great for it's price. Anything more is pure hyperbolic excess.


----------



## kwkarth

For the record, I do not recall anyone ever saying the Asgard was the best amp ever in that thread.  So we all need to have more respect for one another.
   
  For the record we do not encourage or condone any criticism of subjective opinions on Head-Fi.  Everyone's opinion, if respectfully and intelligently offered is welcomed.


----------



## purrin

_Now we return to our regularly scheduled programming..._
   
  Here's what I did to the OPA2107 for those interested. The notch and pin 1 at at the bottom. I put some goop over the solder joints just in case they accidentally break off. The last thing I want is -15V accidentally touching an input pin.
   
  For the record OPA2107 (w/ mods) >> OPA2107 > OPA2134 (stock). YMMV.
   
  I keep thinking this setup would mate well with Denons. Unfortunately, I sold my markl modded D5000s a while ago.


----------



## purrin

Not "Pure Class A?"  LOL, something I just realized and maybe _coolfungadget _can address.
   
  The Ebay ad says "Pure Class A". I don't think this is true. For one, it appears to employ an opamp without a class A biasing circuit. I looked on the board for _something _and even measured for maybe some resistance between the output and -15V rail (didn't do it for +15V, but that wouldn't make sense for an OPA2134). Also, according to the Lovely Cube schematics (which has a very similar board layout with some minor changes), I don't see a CCS circuit or any bias circuit to on the output buffer (I'm not sure about this though) Finally, this thing seems to run warm, but not HOT like a "Pure" (or heavily biased into) class A amp should.


----------



## Kuze

So is this good or bad.


----------



## purrin

Quote: 





kuze said:


> So is this good or bad.


 

 Good in that it's still a good amp that doesn't get so hot that you can fry eggs on it.
   
  Bad (from a reputational or legal point of view) for possible false advertising. Again I'd like to make clear that I only _suspect _this amp isn't "*Pure *Class A". An answer from the manufacturer or seller would clarify this.


----------



## francisdemarte

CoolFunGadget is just copying what Lehmann says about the Black Cube Linear. From http://www.lehmannaudio.com/index.php?id=25
   
 _"The selectable gain (0dB, 10dB, 20dB) of the Black Cube Linear effectively optimizes the output level of the zero global feedback *Class A output stage*. Practically all high quality dynamic headphones available will show their best possible performance, no matter if you have an easy to drive low impedance pair of headphones or an ineffective pair of 600 Ohms studio cans."_
  
 So Lehmann would be the better people to ask what they mean by this.
  
 Purrin: Might want to snip down those leads. I've been told long leads add to resistance and a errant touch could short out the chip.


----------



## purrin

Quote: 





francisdemarte said:


> CoolFunGadget is just copying what Lehmann says about the Black Cube Linear. From http://www.lehmannaudio.com/index.php?id=25
> 
> _"The selectable gain (0dB, 10dB, 20dB) of the Black Cube Linear effectively optimizes the output level of the zero global feedback *Class A output stage*..._
> 
> ... 
   
  Heehee - the one the in picture was my initial soldering experiment with the OPA2134 - just to make sure I could do it right. I significantly shortened the leads on the OPA2107 that I actually installed (it was more painful to do this with the shorter leads.)
   
  What I would really like to do buy a few high quality DIP riser adapters with a little bit of space underneath to wire up resistors of different values - that way I can plug and play with different values and slap a heatsink on the opamps. Maybe I can even send a few to Cravenz or whomever else wants them.
   
  The zero global feedback is very likely correct. Playing around with the DMM didn't indicate any global feedback loop. Taking a second and closer look (based on Lovely Cube schematics) at the output stage, it does appear to be Class A biased with the emitter resistors on the input transistors. So I stand corrected on this. However, a "Class A output stage" is not the same thing as "Pure Class A" amp as advertised, unless you did what I did on the opamps... and even then I would hesitate to call it _Pure _Class A.
   
  Now I have this crazy idea to buy another one and run balanced. LOL, probably not.


----------



## SP Wild

Not pure class A.  I feel kinda ripped off.


----------



## BlutoSlice

WooHoo my M-stage Matrix is here, in only a 4 working day delivery time!


----------



## DarkScythe

purrin, which version of the M-stage do you have?
   
  I don't really know anything about what you guys are talking about, but I just got my MkII amp yesterday and have been listening to it. Prior to that, I had borrowed an "original" M-stage from my friend to try out. You said the "pure class A" should run hotter, I think. On a whim, I just went to feel my amp and it is definitely warmer then what I remember my friend's amp feeling like. His was quite warm, but mine is almost too hot to touch for more than a couple seconds.


----------



## kwkarth

The amp could be all class A.  The amount of heat dissipated depends entirely upon how far into class A the output stage is biased.  An amp can claim to be class A and only dissipate, say 20mW of heat.  It will run relatively cool.  It also will operate as a class A amp up to 20mW output.  Beyond that level it will operate as a class A/B amp.  Sonically, it won't be as good, but legally, is can be said to be class A.  I had a small Kenwood amp that was that way.  It was a 20WPC output and was claimed by Kenwoood to be class A.  In the fine print of the manual, it explained that it was class A for only a small portion of the output capacity.


----------



## purrin

DarkScythe: I have the MKII version. As I stated above, I now believe the output stage is Class A. My amp is warm to the touch, even for extended periods. (Ambient temperature is about 72-78F)
   
  However, the input/gain stage is a simple opamp OPA2132, which is definitely not class A (unless you bias that chip into class A, which does not appear to have been done - and what my resistor mods do). It may be fair to say that the output stage of the M-Stage is class A, but to say that the amp is "*Pure *Class A" in its Ebay ads is misleading considering that not all stages are class A. Note that even the designer of the BCL (upon which this amp is based) is carefully selective in making those class A claims.
   
  But to put things in perspective, I don't feel ripped off at all. This was one of the best deals I've ever gotten and many thanks to the OP.


----------



## SP Wild

You didn't pay $1100 for the matrix like I did. 
   
  So therefore the input stage is not even class A.  First I was led to believe that the Lehmann was fully discreet - which I presumed meant no op-amps - which turns out not to be the case, and now there are dubious class A claims - not happy.  Lehmann, like Musical Fidelity is on my blacklist.
   
  I have no negative comments regarding sound quality though.
  
  Quote: 





purrin said:


> DarkScythe: I have the MKII version. As I stated above, I now believe the output stage is Class A. My amp is warm to the touch, even for extended periods. (Ambient temperature is about 72-78F)
> 
> However, the input/gain stage is a simple opamp OPA2132, which is definitely not class A (unless you bias that chip into class A, which does not appear to have been done - and what my resistor mods do). It may be fair to say that the output stage of the M-Stage is class A, but to say that the amp is "*Pure *Class A" in its Ebay ads is misleading considering that not all stages are class A. Note that even the designer of the BCL (upon which this amp is based) is carefully selective in making those class A claims.
> 
> But to put things in perspective, I don't feel ripped off at all. This was one of the best deals I've ever gotten and many thanks to the OP.


----------



## purrin

Well do be fair, Lehmann does say on his website: 
   
_... the zero global feedback Class A output stage._
   
  Both statements (zero global feedback, and Class A output stage) are technically true. I guess we shouldn't expect him to also say "by the way, I put in a US $4 opamp for the input stage" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  The Lehmann chassis looks to be better and more precisely built; and I'm sure Lehmann put in a significant amount of effort into selecting the components on the PCB to voice the amp a certain way. No one has yet compared the M-Stage with a BCL, it could very well be that the BCL does sound better.
   
  On another note, and upon closer examination, the M-Stage looks similar to a two channel PPA v2 (with a simpler diamond buffer and without the separate high/low current power sections and no class A biasing of the opamp.) There are really not that many different ways of building chip based amps. Everything in audio amplification has already been done before - generations ago. What it comes down to is implementation (parts selection, layout, etc.)


----------



## dpump

Quote: 





frank i said:


> The only thing missing in regards to the Asgard is with the Matrix you cannot cook Bacon and Eggs like you can with the Asgard. Also with the Matrix you can play any headphone including my T1 and denon D7000 as well as 701 and everything else you can throw at it. Not so with the Asgard only low impedance works. So it is a one trick pony


 

 Frank,
   
  I don't normally respond to misleading and incorrect posts but I couldn't let this pass. I can't believe kwkarth didn't respond to this already.
   
  The Asgard is not a 'one trick pony' as you state. It is speced by Schiit to drive headphones from 8-600 ohms. I own both Matrix M-Stages-Versions 1 & 2. They are great amps. I also own an Asgard which I received last Friday. It is also a great amp. I have used headphones from 32-600 ohms on the Asgard and it drives all of them with ease and the sound quality is consistent on any impedance.
   
  For you to say that the Asgard will only drive low impedance is totally false. From your profile you don't own an Asgard. It seems you are basing your statement on what you have read, not from personal experience. If you have listened to an Asgard and think it doesn't work well with high impedance phones then you are entitled to your opinion and I apologize. If what you wrote is your opinion based on experience with the Asgard you should say so.
   
  Your statement persuaded the Head-Fier in the next post below you to say he was going to purchase a Matrix and forget about the Asgard. That's not fair to the Matrix or the Asgard since he is basing his decision on what you wrote. IMHO, you should be more careful in the future before making statements which aren't based on fact and aren't stated as being a personal opinion.


----------



## kenken1985

Quote: 





dpump said:


> Frank,
> 
> I don't normally respond to misleading and incorrect posts but I couldn't let this pass. I can't believe kwkarth didn't respond to this already.
> 
> ...


 

 Could you describe some difference between M stage and Asgard?


----------



## Frank I

. I believe the Matrix with gain adjustments and my experience with the Matrix it is suitable for all types of headphones as I had 6 different phones work with it. So I can't see how I mislead anyone and offered an opinion . If I was wrong I do then apologize/


----------



## kite7

You did say this
   
  Quote: 





> Also with the Matrix you can play any headphone including my T1 and denon D7000 as well as 701 and everything else you can throw at it. *Not so with the Asgard only low impedance works. So it is a one trick pony*


 
   
  Which makes it seem like you know for a fact that the Asgard cannot drive higher impedance cans when it in fact can from personal experience and as stated on the website. You say it only works with low impedance, not so.


----------



## purrin

Quote: 





kenken1985 said:


> Could you describe some difference between M stage and Asgard?


 

 x2 
   
  Inquiring minds want to know. It should be very interesting comparing these two budget amps which take such different approaches (one, a commonly used two stage opamp / diamond buffer topology, and the other, a minimalist "pure" class A single ended SS design).


----------



## nmurthy

Quote: 





purrin said:


> x2
> 
> Inquiring minds want to know. It should be very interesting comparing these two budget amps which take such different approaches (one, a commonly used two stage opamp / diamond buffer topology, and the other, a minimalist "pure" class A single ended SS design).


 
   
  x3
   
  I'm in the exact same boat. I want to pull the trigger on a used M-Stage (for ~$75 cheaper than an Asgard when factoring in taxes and shipping), but can't decide whether it'd be prudent to wait for the Asgard or not. My new cans (HD650s) are arriving soon, as well as a uDac-2. This would be my first headphone amplifier.


----------



## dpump

Quote: 





purrin said:


> x2
> 
> Inquiring minds want to know. It should be very interesting comparing these two budget amps which take such different approaches (one, a commonly used two stage opamp / diamond buffer topology, and the other, a minimalist "pure" class A single ended SS design).
> 
> ...


----------



## Sid-Fi

Nice comparison dpump! That's encouraging that the Asgard held its own against M-stage while offering a different flavor. It's nice to have solid options at these price points.


----------



## purrin

Awesome comparison pdump! And very insightful on the unexpected pairings (e.g, K702 w/ Asgard and SR125i w/ Matrix).


----------



## reiserFS

Do we have news on the DAC yet?


----------



## nmurthy

Quote: 





reiserfs said:


> Do we have news on the DAC yet?


 

 They're coming out with a new DAC? Successor to the Mini-i?


----------



## Violet

Can I ask for an opinion on the latest version Matrix M-Stage? Someone has already listened to? Alternatively, please link to the description. Thank you.
   
http://cgi.ebay.pl/Matrix-m-stage-Headphone-Amplifier-New-Second-Edition-/280544770344?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4151c57928


----------



## JoetheArachnid

Quote: 





violet said:


> Can I ask for an opinion on the latest version Matrix M-Stage? Someone has already listened to? Alternatively, please link to the description. Thank you.
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.pl/Matrix-m-stage-Headphone-Amplifier-New-Second-Edition-/280544770344?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4151c57928


 
  Quote: 





dpump said:


> I haven't done a direct comparison of the Matrix V1 vs the V2, but my short time listening to the V2 I received recently left me thinking there is no appreciable difference between them. The circuitry appears to be identical except for a few noncritical parts, so that's not surprising.


 

 We've already had this discussion; they're basically the same. I would also avoid that seller, as he appears to have just stolene CoolFunGadget's pictures and scribbled his name on them. If you want the real goods and service, go CFG.
   
  Thanks for the comparison, dpump. I think I'm still going to get the M-Stage because it seems more flexible for someone who can only afford one good amp, and it's got the adjustable gain. However, I'm certainly going to keep an eye on Schiit, and maybe buy a Valhalla if I win the lottery.


----------



## purrin

Well I finally removed the input caps on the M-Stage. (When I originally measured the DC offset on one of my sources, I forgot it had output caps that hadn't discharged first, so I thought the DC offset was too high, which made me decide to not remove the input caps. Doh!). 
   
  There are two caps for each channel: a big one and a smaller 0.022uf WIMA for bypass. I removed both caps and replaced with a single wire. It's a fairly easy mod with a soldering iron, possibly even for beginners. I haven't had a chance to listen much, but my initial impression is that it does almost as much as replacing the stock opamp with a OPA2107 biased into class A.
   
  I would say that the midrange and treble have really opened up, and the bass is slightly more extended. Soundstage is notably expanded. There does seem to be more emphasis in the midrange. The sound floor is lowered a bit, so you get a touch more detail and retrieval of low-level information (similar to the OPA2107/class A mod, but to not nearly as much extent). The most noticeable change is the sound is more natural and authoritative - instruments, voices, etc. sound more like they do real life. There is an organic quality and wholeness to the reproduction of music that tends to steer you away from listening to the little details (which are still there and more than ever) and just enjoying the music. IMO, this is a good thing and actually makes me fairly satisfied now. To put things in perspective, although I liked the unit stock, I wasn't totally satisfied with it. I guess I just like to mess with things.
   
  One warning though, with the current modifications (OPA2107 biased into class A and input cap removal), the sound balance becomes less warm than stock. Not that the stock M-stage is a warm sounding amp, but I would still categorize it as very slightly warm. The amp with the current mods sounds neutral with a little bit of emphasis on the midrange. A contributing factor to this may be the extra detail and cleanliness from the mods. It's all relative anyways and YMMV depending upon your source and headphones. 
   
  I'm not sure if the mods so far work as well with the PS1000 (I've been listening to my HF-2s mostly in the past two days and need to readjust and reset to the PS1000 sound signature to make a good and valid assessment). The HF-2s are absolutely wonderful though. Again, I wish I hadn't sold my Denon D5000s (w/ markl mods) - I'm betting those phones would synergize very well with this amp+mods.


----------



## francisdemarte

Thanks purrin! Removing those caps will be my next mod on the Lovely Cube, maybe along with trying the Burson discrete opamps.
   
  Coming from an hybrid tube amp like the EF5, I am finding that this amp sounds a little bright and lean to me. I'm hoping to find an opamp to warm it up a little.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





francisdemarte said:


> Thanks purrin! Removing those caps will be my next mod on the Lovely Cube, maybe along with trying the Burson discrete opamps.
> 
> Coming from an hybrid tube amp like the EF5, I am finding that this amp sounds a little bright and lean to me. I'm hoping to find an opamp to warm it up a little.


 

 What does Fang use for output devices in the EF5, mosfets?


----------



## francisdemarte

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> What does Fang use for output devices in the EF5, mosfets?


 

 It's hard to see since the case and heat sinks covers most of the visible portions. From what little I do see , I believe they are  MOSFETs. I'll have a better idea and post some pictures in a few weeks I take it apart to upgrade the volume pot and change the gain resisters.
   
   
  Off topic, does anyone know of high quality volume pot thats smaller than the Alps RK27? I think the EF5 uses a RK097 or something similar. It's small and green.


----------



## purrin

Quote: 





francisdemarte said:


> Coming from an hybrid tube amp like the EF5, I am finding that this amp sounds a little bright and lean to me. I'm hoping to find an opamp to warm it up a little.


 
   
  Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> What does Fang use for output devices in the EF5, mosfets?


 

 Short of modifying the output devices, I'm not sure it would be possible to warm up this amp significantly with just an opamp change (especially after removing the caps and direct coupling the inputs).
   
  The BB opamps are about laid back as you can get (although I don't know about the Bursons). This is one of the reasons I avoided AD opamps. I tried a very cheap JRC4556, and this chip really warmed things up, but adds a layer of fuzziness. The OPA2604 is dark, but rather dead sounding. I'm thinking perhaps OPA627 which may be even a bit more laid back than the stock OPA2134, but these are expensive. IMO, the OPA2107 is a little bit on the bright side comparatively.
   
  I mainly run my portable Sony X, which I consider a very warm source into the M-Stage.


----------



## reiserFS

Quote: 





nmurthy said:


> They're coming out with a new DAC? Successor to the Mini-i?


 
   Matrix Cube DAC, thread was deleted for whatever reason.


----------



## dpump

An opamp that might be a little warmer than the 2107 is the LM4562NA. I'm going to try the 4562 next in my Matrix and I'll report back. In my Cute Beyond I compared the 2107 and the 4562-the 2107 is a little more upfront and a little brighter. The 4562 is smoother and a little more mellow sounding. There's one USA seller on Ebay who sells a number of different opamps that seem to be genuine. I would stay away from all the Chinese sellers.


----------



## purrin

Let us know how the LM4562 works out. It may be a perfect fit based on what you said and what I've read others have said about it.


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





purrin said:


> Let us know how the LM4562 works out. It may be a perfect fit based on what you said and what I've read others have said about it.


 

 I think you are doing great work regarding the sound signature of the different op amps. Can you provide the best plug and play op amps the prices and where to purchase them. It would be a great service to Matrix owners. I do not like thinkering or soldering but I am interested in plug and play if it would indeed step up the sound quality if thats possible. Thanks


----------



## dpump

I listened to the Matrix V1 with the LM4562 and the V2 with the OPA2107. The sound was pretty much as I expected from my comparisons with the Cute Beyond.
   
  The 4562 is smoother and not quite as bright as the 2107. Keep in mind I was using A/T AD700 phones, which tend to be a little bright sounding. I prefer the 4562 as it is easier to listen to but still provides as much detail as the 2107. The 4562 seems to have more 'body' to the sound. Of course if you have darker sounding phones you might prefer the 2107.
   
  Ebay seller Audiosector has both opamps and he is based in the USA. I purchased my opamps from him. As far as I can tell, they are genuine. I know there are other opamps you can try but you might go 'crazy' doing comparisons! With these two opamps you have a sound that is better than the stock 2134, IMHO, without spending a lot of time and money looking for other compatible opamps.


----------



## mobayrasta

Quote: 





dpump said:


> I listened to the Matrix V1 with the LM4562 and the V2 with the OPA2107. The sound was pretty much as I expected from my comparisons with the Cute Beyond.
> 
> The 4562 is smoother and not quite as bright as the 2107. Keep in mind I was using A/T AD700 phones, which tend to be a little bright sounding. I prefer the 4562 as it is easier to listen to but still provides as much detail as the 2107. The 4562 seems to have more 'body' to the sound. Of course if you have darker sounding phones you might prefer the 2107.
> 
> Ebay seller Audiosector has both opamps and he is based in the USA. I purchased my opamps from him. As far as I can tell, they are genuine. I know there are other opamps you can try but you might go 'crazy' doing comparisons! With these two opamps you have a sound that is better than the stock 2134, IMHO, without spending a lot of time and money looking for other compatible opamps.


 
  I have some LM4562's I need to stick them in and give them a try. I am perfectly happy with my m-stage stock coming from the eastern Electric Tube DAC. A great combo.  I have had 4562's in my sound card for years and have always liked the sound. MAybe it will be a good match.
   
  Oh and buy the way the above combo of Eastern Electric Dac and the M-Stage is a GREAT combo with my LCD2's. My Bijou has lush lush mids and I probably still prefer it over the M-Stage, but the M-Stage is just so damn fast and detailed with the LCD'2's. Having both is just awesome. 
   
  Changing a tube in the EE DAC has huge impact on sound because the Audeze's are so source dependent. I am curious if changing the op-amps in th matrix will have as big of an impact. Only reason I have not done some op-amp rolling is pure laziness. I need to get off my butt and try it.
   
  Chris


----------



## purrin

Quote: 





dpump said:


> The 4562 is smoother and not quite as bright as the 2107...
> Ebay seller Audiosector has both opamps and he is based in the USA. I purchased my opamps from him. As far as I can tell, they are genuine... With these two opamps you have a sound that is better than the stock 2134, IMHO, without spending a lot of time and money looking for other compatible opamps.


 

 LOL just ordered from the same guy a few days ago. Can't wait since your conclusions sound promising. Do you know if the LM4562 responds well to class A biasing?
  
  Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *mobayrasta* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> ... Only reason I have not done some op-amp rolling is pure laziness. I need to get off my butt and try it.


 
  Just four screws. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  I think opamp rolling does do a little bit. Little bit more detail, little bit different sound balance, etc. However I felt the most gains were with removal of the input caps (and direct coupling) and pushing the opamps into Class A (though I understand that results will vary according to each opamp).


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





frank i said:


> I think you are doing great work regarding the sound signature of the different op amps. Can you provide the best plug and play op amps the prices and where to purchase them. It would be a great service to Matrix owners. I do not like thinkering or soldering but I am interested in plug and play if it would indeed step up the sound quality if thats possible. Thanks


 
  For all of you intrepid OpAmp rollers...  I suspect that one of the more positive things one can do is to apply
  DeOxit-D5 / Pro-Gold to all of the pins on the OpAmp before insertion.  Just in case you all weren't aware of it, it can make a tremendous difference in the sound quality.


----------



## Sid-Fi

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> For all of you intrepid OpAmp rollers...  I suspect that one of the more positive things one can do is to apply
> DeOxit-D5 / Pro-Gold to all of the pins on the OpAmp before insertion.  Just in case you all weren't aware of it, it can make a tremendous difference in the sound quality.


 

 Sweet, thanks for the suggestion.


----------



## Kuze

How about the LME49720 and 2x LME49710 in dual DIP TO-99 socket, will they work, i've heard good things about them from the Asus ST thread, i also had them installed while i had the Asus ST, sounds great "very detailed"
   
  Still have them both but not yet recieve the Matrix-M so i can't comment.


----------



## francisdemarte

I have to say, now that I've had the ADA4627-1's in my amp for several weeks I am just in love with it. Super detailed, neutral, and near limitless extension for bass and treble. Best of all it was a free sample from AD.
   
  Don't just take my word for it: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=+site:diyaudio.com+ADA4627-1&sa=X&ei=JWZhTJfJN8GKnQfh7YWODw&ved=0CCwQrQIwAw


----------



## purrin

Quote: 





kuze said:


> How about the LME49720 and 2x LME49710 in dual DIP TO-99 socket, will they work, i've heard good things about them from the Asus ST thread, i also had them installed while i had the Asus ST, sounds great "very detailed"
> 
> Still have them both but not yet recieve the Matrix-M so i can't comment.


 
   
  The LME49720 is the same thing as LM4562, just different part number. The TO99 packages supposedly sound better than the DIPs.


----------



## cathare34

Just received the AMP (Version2) this afternoon (paid saturday received this morning 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





) and waw i am very very happy..i am listening right now to Jimi Hendrix vinyl (Electric Ladyland ltd editon 5000) and baby its rock Voodoo Chile..
   
  For the moment This Amp (without opamping...) in combination with my modded grados 325is are very very good, very clear not overpowering bass and yeah no harshness no more that you sometimes can get with grados, i am very impressed and i have just 3 hours of burn-in...
   
   
  This week i will get Senn 650 on loan i am curious i will get back to leave my impressions...
   
   
*( For the opamps and other feel free to improve it with ideas....) i am in for suggestions 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


*


----------



## techenvy

anyone know of any head amps like matrix which have two inputs with or without output like the matrix?


----------



## sunneebear

Quote: 





techenvy said:


> anyone know of any head amps like matrix which have two inputs with or without output like the matrix?


 

 Lovely Cube.


----------



## dpump

Shanling PH100 has 2 inputs switchable from the front, no output. Great amp, Easily as good as the Matrix. Relatively unknown.
   
  Shanling PH3000 has 2 inputs and 1 output. Also a great amp.
   
  For some reason the Shanlings never caught on like some of the other amps.


----------



## kwkarth

x2  Shanling, FWIW, builds good stuff.  In addition to their own products, they do all the builds for Meier audio AFAIK.


----------



## daisangen

Just a heads-up (and sorry if it's mentioned already); AudiophileChina is selling the MK2 for $209 (+$40 for shipping).


----------



## drews

Thanks for the heads-up, just pulled the trigger...


----------



## Sganzerla

Quote: 





daisangen said:


> Just a heads-up (and sorry if it's mentioned already); AudiophileChina is selling the MK2 for $209 (+$40 for shipping).


 

  Good info, I'm almost buying there, only waiting for a email reply about shipping to my country.
   
   My DT880 600Ω is coming home, and hopefully in a few days this headphone amp too. It should be better to compare with my K701 before deciding which one to sell.


----------



## gav007

What DAC are you guys pairing the M-stage with?  Currently, I'm looking for a new DAC.


----------



## BmWr75

Cambridge Audio DACMagic - StereoPhile recommended component........or was it TAS?


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





bmwr75 said:


> Cambridge Audio DACMagic - StereoPhile recommended component........or was it TAS?


 

 Both recommended the Dac Magic Class C in stereophile


----------



## gav007

Is there any DAC that pairs well with the M-stage in the $200-250 range? I think the DacMagic would be out of my budget.


----------



## BmWr75

The Music Fidelity V-DAC is the other StereoPhile recommended affordable DAC.  It runs $299 I think.  The Behringer SRC2496 runs $199.


----------



## dark1evil2

how is the matrix compared to MC84-C07 ?


----------



## BmWr75

Have not yet done a direct comparison using the same set of headphones.


----------



## lescanard

Quote: 





gav007 said:


> Is there any DAC that pairs well with the M-stage in the $200-250 range? I think the DacMagic would be out of my budget.


 

 I own both the DacMagic and VDac...although my primary Dac with my M-Stage is my DacMagic - I've used and would highly recommend the VDac with the Matrix. I took the pair on vacation with me recently and was highly pleased with the results (listening to my Beyer 990s).


----------



## gav007

Quote: 





lescanard said:


> I own both the DacMagic and VDac...although my primary Dac with my M-Stage is my DacMagic - I've used and would highly recommend the VDac with the Matrix. I took the pair on vacation with me recently and was highly pleased with the results (listening to my Beyer 990s).


 


 The VDac might be a better choice for me since it's cheaper, but I heard it's bright on the highs?  Can you tell me how it sounds when pairing with the matrix?


----------



## purrin

Quote: 





dpump said:


> I listened to the Matrix V1 with the LM4562 and the V2 with the OPA2107. The sound was pretty much as I expected from my comparisons with the Cute Beyond.
> 
> The 4562 is smoother and not quite as bright as the 2107...


 

 Ditto.  Got in my LM4562s a week ago and my experience is the same.  The LM4562 sound is warmer and less bright - almost dark (in a way which I like).  The LM4562 just lets the bass go, but isn't tubby like the OPA2134.  LM4562 is warm, full-bodied, and detailed. In comparison, the OPA2107 is fast, super controlled, delicate, clean, and detailed, but the bass can be too contained. Ability to retrieve low level information and harmonic structure of sounds is equivalent for both chips, although initially more evident in the OPA2107.
   
  Biasing the LM4562 into class A increases cleaniness, impact, authority, and warmness.  Yes the LM4562 actually got warmer biasing into class A (3ma). The chip gets a little bit hotter to the touch, but it shouldn't need a heatsink or anything like that.
   
  Here are some results from most warm to least (I list only configurations I've listened to extensively on the M-Stage)
   

 LM4562 biased class A (3mA)
 LM4562
 OPA2134 and OPA2134 class A
 OPA2107
 OPA2107 class A (3mA)
   
  Removing the input caps and replacing with straight wire will make the overall sound less warm a notch or two.  Now, I've heard that pushing the OPA2107 deep into class A ~7mA can really warm things up. I will try this next.
   
   
  Here is the list from most resolving (naturalness of sound, cleanliness, low level detail and harmonics retrieval) to least:
   

 LM4562 class A and OPA2107 class A
 OPA2107
 LM4562
 OPA2134 class A
 OPA2134
   
  Now to put things into perspective, the OPA2134 is not a bad opamp. It's got this funky glaze over the midrange and bouncy bass that's almost like a tube (but not quite). It's actually does sound good in a euphonic way. Sometimes cleaner and more detailed isn't necessarily better.
   
  BTW, all the above opamps can be found on Ebay (beware of fakes), Digikey, Mouser, etc. and are in DIP which are plug-n-play. Just be careful of which direction you have the  notch (or pin 1) aligned.


----------



## kenken1985

Quote: 





purrin said:


> Short of modifying the output devices, I'm not sure it would be possible to warm up this amp significantly with just an opamp change (especially after removing the caps and direct coupling the inputs).
> 
> The BB opamps are about laid back as you can get (although I don't know about the Bursons). This is one of the reasons I avoided AD opamps. I tried a very cheap JRC4556, and this chip really warmed things up, but adds a layer of fuzziness. The OPA2604 is dark, but rather dead sounding. I'm thinking perhaps OPA627 which may be even a bit more laid back than the stock OPA2134, but these are expensive. IMO, the OPA2107 is a little bit on the bright side comparatively.
> 
> I mainly run my portable Sony X, which I consider a very warm source into the M-Stage.


 
   
  How do you connect your X1060 to M stage? Line out or 3.5mm? I tried to connect my X1060 to M stage using line out but feel that the effect is not as good as my 02US, sounds a little bit not real.

 Also, I want to ask is it better to maximize the volume on the amp and adjust the one in the computer for listening or maximizing the one in computer then adjust the one on the amp? Which one give less distortion to the sound?


----------



## BlutoSlice

Quote: 





kenken1985 said:


> Also, I want to ask is it better to maximize the volume on the amp and adjust the one in the computer for listening or maximizing the one in computer then adjust the one on the amp? Which one give less distortion to the sound?


 

 I think the general best practice is to set your PC \ source output to near maximum and then adjust from the amp.
   
  I run my xonar DX at 75-90% and then adjust with the M-stage which works well its also more conveient when gaming due to a physical volume control.


----------



## gav007

I need to find a place that sells the MF V-Dac to Canada, which I can't seem to find.  Has anyone tried to pair the M-stage with the Pico Dac? If so, how does that pairing perform together?


----------



## mhcarlos

Amazing how long this thread is. For one piece of equipment...


----------



## Sganzerla

I bought one Monday, let's see how long it takes to reach my home.


----------



## lescanard

Quote: 





gav007 said:


> The VDac might be a better choice for me since it's cheaper, but I heard it's bright on the highs?  Can you tell me how it sounds when pairing with the matrix?


 
   
  I don't describe it as bright with highs at all. I think it's actually a pretty transparent Dac. It really paired well with my Matrix - I was mainly using my Beyers and k271s when I tried them out together. Soundstage was quite good - the bass, controlled but nice and powerful (esp with the DT990s), and I can't say it was lacking when compared to my DacMagic. I found the highs very pleasant - not harsh in anyway. I mainly use my DacMagic with the Matrix - but that's just a setup thing. The VDac mates well with the M-Stage - if you can pick one up I would think you'd be happy.


----------



## gav007

Quote: 





lescanard said:


> I don't describe it as bright with highs at all. I think it's actually a pretty transparent Dac. It really paired well with my Matrix - I was mainly using my Beyers and k271s when I tried them out together. Soundstage was quite good - the bass, controlled but nice and powerful (esp with the DT990s), and I can't say it was lacking when compared to my DacMagic. I found the highs very pleasant - not harsh in anyway. I mainly use my DacMagic with the Matrix - but that's just a setup thing. The VDac mates well with the M-Stage - if you can pick one up I would think you'd be happy.


 

 Thanks for your input, I appreciate it. I just bought the V-Dac this morning from a store in the UK.  I can't wait until it gets here so I can pair it with the M-stage


----------



## purrin

Quote: 





kenken1985 said:


> How do you connect your X1060 to M stage? Line out or 3.5mm? I tried to connect my X1060 to M stage using line out but feel that the effect is not as good as my 02US, sounds a little bit not real.


 

 I use a LOD. The sound balance is totally different from the LOD compared to the HP out, almost like they are totally different sources altogether. I didn't like the sound of the LOD at first because I was so used to the HP out for the longest time. I swear that Sony uses some fancy DSP to enhance the HP out sound. It's warm, seductive, and sweet, with a emphasis on vocals and the mid-to-high treble. The LOD sound is definitely darker, and doesn't have that "effect".
   
  However, I've since gotten use to the sound from the LOD; and all my modifications to the M-Stage to make it sound right were based on this setup. I've switched back and forth between the LOD and HP out with my M-Stage for a bit and I prefer the LOD. HP out is brighter so it seems to have more detail, but upon closer and longer term listening, the LOD is just as good in this regards. Where the LOD wins is the bass. There is a LOT more extension, weight, and slam (a quality IMO that even many well-reviewed DACs lack.) Again the overall sound from the LOD is darker, which is my preference, since my HF hearing is still good since I never abused my ears.
   
  I've finally gotten the modifications for my M-Stage to really "click-in" with my Sony X and PS1000s. (Heh, I take this rig with me for business travel.) Component synergy is absolutely key to this expensive hobby and something that could be talked about more. If I still had my Denon D5000s, I would probably buy _another _M-Stage (since it's so cheap) and use a different opamp rather than get a "better" amp and hoping that it would well for both of them.
   
  Quote: 





> Also, I want to ask is it better to maximize the volume on the amp and adjust the one in the computer for listening or maximizing the one in computer then adjust the one on the amp? Which one give less distortion to the sound?





   
  Finally, if using HP out with amp, max volume as much as possible. This is assuming that you won't cause clipping in the amplifier, which in the case of the M-stage, it won't. Maxing volume will keep the signal as far above the inherent noise floor as possible. This way, an external amp won't be amplifying the noise too.


----------



## lescanard

Quote: 





gav007 said:


> Thanks for your input, I appreciate it. I just bought the V-Dac this morning from a store in the UK.  I can't wait until it gets here so I can pair it with the M-stage


 
  Glad to hear it - I think you'll be happy with your choice.


----------



## Frank I

I have been using the Matrix on the Bey DT770 600 ohms with good results. I do prefer both my T1 and 770 with the Decware tube amp but the Denon D7000 is much better with the Matrix. The 770 really is an unbelievable bargain. Its like a closed T1 with just a little less transparency and smaller soundstage. But the Matrix does a very nice job with both Beyer 600 ohm cans and sounds very detailed and transparent. Nice combo


----------



## Kuze

Mine took a while to get here, black was sold out so i had to wait but it was worth it, the amp sounds great.
   
  What gain do you guys recommend using with HD650, current i have it set to 10db is this ok?


----------



## buz

Whatever works really. Some would say that lower gain might sound a little bit better but YMMV


----------



## daisangen

Lower gain than 10 would be 0, which isn't nearly enough. I prefer gain of 10 for my HD650 and K701.


----------



## Frank I

I have tried all the setting and IMO 10 works well with all can I have used them with. The D7000,T1,770,M50<840 and701. It the one I always ended up to going back too. it sounded the best for me. Other may have different opinions.


----------



## daisangen

Looks like Headfonia reviewed the upgraded version of M-Stage.
   
http://www.headfonia.com/matrix-m-stage/
   
  Quote: 





> Back to the M-Stage, I do think that at the price they’re selling this, the amplifier is probably the best entry-level amplifier I’ve ever encountered. There is enough power to drive almost any headphones. The 4-steps gain adjustments make this amplifier usable for anything from sensitive IEMs to low sensitivity or high impedance full size headphones. It has a pleasing sound signature that’s easy to like, and a simple opamp swap instantly boost the sound quality. What is there to not like? The finishing quality of the front faceplate can be improved, but at this price level, I’m not complaining.


----------



## cravenz

Quote: 





daisangen said:


> Looks like Headfonia reviewed the upgraded version of M-Stage.
> 
> http://www.headfonia.com/matrix-m-stage/


 

 nice. thanks for the link. will read up on that.
   
  on a side note: I'm in agreement with Frank I that 10 gain is about it for most cans re: 702, HD800, dt770, though I'm unsure whether it really hit the spot with the HD650.


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





daisangen said:


> Looks like Headfonia reviewed the upgraded version of M-Stage.
> 
> http://www.headfonia.com/matrix-m-stage/


 

 I don't think headphonia is being forthright with the true potential of the Matrix - he did admit that it was his favorite amp, over Burson or EF5, for driving the HE5LE - and these are the hardest cans to drive currently in production.  If it's true regarding the warmth of the Matrix - then it differs slightly to the BCL, because the BCL is dead neutral of all the amps I own.  This explains why so many enjoy the K701 and matrix combo, where I had slight issues with the BCL and K701.  Its funny how one can so easily interpret lesser warmth to quicker transients - when the two are seperate issues.


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





sp wild said:


> I don't think headphonia is being forthright with the true potential of the Matrix - he did admit that it was his favorite amp, over Burson or EF5, for driving the HE5LE - and these are the hardest cans to drive currently in production.  If it's true regarding the warmth of the Matrix - then it differs slightly to the BCL, because the BCL is dead neutral of all the amps I own.  This explains why so many enjoy the K701 and matrix combo, where I had slight issues with the BCL and K701.  Its funny how one can so easily interpret lesser warmth to quicker transients - when the two are seperate issues.


 

 I have the Matrix originall and it is not warm. I would consider it neutral and not sure if it is same sound signature as the BCL but it was good enough to drive the HE5Le and the 701 and drives the T1 and 770 and really sounds great witth all cans and the D7000. Lots of these guys who review IMO do always take higher price into consideration and many times IMO the lower price electronics can sound better. Paying more does not always mean better IMO.


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





frank i said:


> I have the Matrix originall and it is not warm. I would consider it neutral and not sure if it is same sound signature as the BCL but it was good enough to drive the HE5Le and the 701 and drives the T1 and 770 and really sounds great witth all cans and the D7000. Lots of these guys who review IMO do always take higher price into consideration and many times IMO the lower price electronics can sound better. Paying more does not always mean better IMO.


 

 Yeah, this same reviewer thought that the BCL was "quicker" than a 4 channel B22 - he did note the B22 was warmer - and I did note he probably had no idea what he was on about.  If it was confirmed that the Matrix was better than the BCL - I would be extremely happy for all you lucky bastards.


----------



## daltonlanny

I don't know a whole lot about op amps or op amp rolling.
  I do have a few questions about the Burr-Brown OPA627AP op amp, however.
  Can the BB OPA627 op amps be used in the Matix M-stage with no modifications to the sockets or the amp?
  If so, has anyone ever tried it?
  What were the results?
  Where can the BB OPA627AP be purchased without having to buy them in large quantities, and for how much?
  How many would I have to buy?
  Sorry so many questions.
  Thanks for your help.


----------



## purrin

Quote: 





daltonlanny said:


> I don't know a whole lot about op amps or op amp rolling.
> I do have a few questions about the Burr-Brown OPA627AP op amp, however.
> Can the BB OPA627 op amps be used in the Matix M-stage with no modifications to the sockets or the amp?
> If so, has anyone ever tried it?
> ...


 

 For OPA627, here's an source for an easy plug-and-play solution if you are not up to doing the soldering work yourself:
http://cimarrontechnology.com/single-to-dualop-ampadapterpn020302.aspx
   
  OPA627s are single channel and you will need to buy two of them and a adapter to make it work right with the M-Stage.  If ordering from above, I would get them with the extended pins option (this makes it easier to add resistors on top to bias _slightly _into class A.)
   
  Finally, OPA627s are not cheap.  You may want to try LM4562 as a much cheaper option first to see if you like the results.  The LM4562 is straight plug-and-play.  I can surmise (based on some DIY projects of my own) that they will sound similar (with the BB being slightly more laid back), although I have not personally tested the OPA627 in the M-Stage.  I was planning on trying the OPA627, but I'm very extremely satisfied with the LM4562 right now and don't see a need to make a change.
   
  You can get LM4562 from this source - ships fast and seems honest:
   
http://cgi.ebay.com/LM4562-HiFi-Audio-Dual-Low-Noise-OpAmp-PSRR-120-DIP-x2-/170485514238?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0#ht_1799wt_911


----------



## daltonlanny

Thanks for all of your valuable information, purrin.
  I truly appreciate it!


----------



## Kuze

I love this amp...so sexy
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 even though i have a B22 in the works I'm keeping it, it's definitely a keeper.

  Quote:


daltonlanny said:


> I don't know a whole lot about op amps or op amp rolling.
> I do have a few questions about the Burr-Brown OPA627AP op amp, however.
> Can the BB OPA627 op amps be used in the Matix M-stage with no modifications to the sockets or the amp?
> If so, has anyone ever tried it?
> ...


 
   
  Had some OPA627BP on hand, tested them, they sounded ok but nothing to kill yourself over getting, the 49710HA's sounded better to me, i have some other sets coming my way soon, will report back.


----------



## clams

I know this thread has been all about the k70x synergy but I just tried this with the ATH-ES7s. Amazing combo. These scale up incredibly well compared to just through a media player. All the frequencies tighten up very well and the soundstage is some of the biggest I've heard for closed cans. Definitely prefer these for certain genres over the k702


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





clams said:


> I know this thread has been all about the k70x synergy but I just tried this with the ATH-ES7s. Amazing combo. These scale up incredibly well compared to just through a media player. All the frequencies tighten up very well and the soundstage is some of the biggest I've heard for closed cans. Definitely prefer these for certain genres over the k702


 
  What is great about the Matrix it play every can I have tried well. Whether it is low or high impedance it makes no difference. It performs well above it price point and competes with amps three times its price. This is one great SS amp I would not be without. The Denon D7000 has detail slam like you would not believe and is perfect for this amp.


----------



## clams

Quote: 





frank i said:


> What is great about the Matrix it play every can I have tried well. Whether it is low or high impedance it makes no difference. It performs well above it price point and competes with amps three times its price. This is one great SS amp I would not be without. The Denon D7000 has detail slam like you would not believe and is perfect for this amp.


 
  I've been seriously thinking of picking up a pair of Denons. The only thing that is stopping me is my poor poor college student budget. I might just pick up a pair of ATH-M50s which should account for some of the flaws of my K702s.


----------



## Kuze

Any word on a matching DAC to go with the M-Stage i heard there was one coming out this month.


----------



## daisangen

https://coolfungadget.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=35&product_id=56
   
  Quote: 





kuze said:


> Any word on a matching DAC to go with the M-Stage i heard there was one coming out this month.


----------



## Frank I

That dac looks interesting and also has a headphone amp. Will wait to see reviews on it.


----------



## project86

I'm still planning on picking up the Matrix Cube DAC when it comes out. I'll keep you folks updated. Jeffrey (Coolfungadget) advised me that it is almost ready; was supposed to be all set but there was some small snag in the production. It just went up on his website but I don't see it on his eBay listings yet. Hopefully it is really available soon so I can get it and start listening.


----------



## cravenz

Quote: 





project86 said:


> I'm still planning on picking up the Matrix Cube DAC when it comes out. I'll keep you folks updated. Jeffrey (Coolfungadget) advised me that it is almost ready; was supposed to be all set but there was some small snag in the production. It just went up on his website but I don't see it on his eBay listings yet. Hopefully it is really available soon so I can get it and start listening.


 

 thought there was a stuff up. I waited a month and didn't get any communication from him, so I've decided to go with the NuForce HDP. I did earnestly think something from Matrix paired with their own product would have been good, but it didn't materialize. Was tossing up the idea of the Yulong D100 as well, but the portability of the HDP did it for me and its usage with my IE8s was another one. I guess my dac is sorted now. No way I'm going to be able to afford another outlay for a while


----------



## Bigrock2150

I just purchased a Matrix mini I, I'm thinking the M stage is definitely in my future!


----------



## Kuze

I thought this was going to be a standalone DAC, Wolfson WM8740 isn't bad but I've seen better SNR. Also this is the same chip used in Gamma and DacMagic, although Gamma has the option to go with WM841, WM842 for higher SNR... crap man this chip is old news and here i thought they coming with something new.


----------



## cravenz

Quote: 





kuze said:


> I thought this was going to be a standalone DAC, Wolfson WM8740 isn't bad but I've seen better SNR. Also this is the same chip used in Gamma and DacMagic, although Gamma has the option to go with WM841, WM842 for higher SNR... crap man this chip is old news and here i thought they coming with something new.


 

 It's really not about what chip is used, but rather, how it is implemented. I don't think the Gamma and the DacMagic are similar sounding at any rate. There are many cheap units that use the same DAC as a more expensive DAC unit and yet don't perform as well or perform better. The chip itself only says so much.
   
  I was hoping the new DAC from Matrix would be a standalone DAC as well, but it wasn't.


----------



## Frank I

Has anyone actually compared the new matrix with the older one. I am curious to the changes in sound if any for better or worse.


----------



## daisangen

I had a leftover LM4562 from my STX, so I dropped it in. It's too early to judge it properly, but I think it's better than OPA2134 in every regard.


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





daisangen said:


> I had a leftover LM4562 from my STX, so I dropped it in. It's too early to judge it properly, but I think it's better than OPA2134 in every regard.


 

 Can you elaborate on the differences. It is cheap enough and I assume it plug and play with no mods needed.


----------



## daisangen

I've listened for some hours with K701, so take it with a grain of salt. Increase in detail is quite significant, treble extension is slightly better yet the highs are smoother. Sounds really nice and pleasant. There's also more effortlessness to the sound, OPA2134 sounds pretty congested in comparison, probably due to the tubby bass.
   
  Yes, it's plug and play, just remember to align it the same way as the original chip.
   
  Quote: 





frank i said:


> Can you elaborate on the differences. It is cheap enough and I assume it plug and play with no mods needed.


----------



## project86

Quote: 





cravenz said:


> It's really not about what chip is used, but rather, how it is implemented. I don't think the Gamma and the DacMagic are similar sounding at any rate. There are many cheap units that use the same DAC as a more expensive DAC unit and yet don't perform as well or perform better. The chip itself only says so much.
> 
> I was hoping the new DAC from Matrix would be a standalone DAC as well, but it wasn't.


 


 Good points. I've noticed that the younger generation of audio junkies (no offense intended) seem to value newer and better chips over everything else. Perhaps this is because things change so rapidly in the realm of computers, with ever more powerful CPU and GPU chips being released every few months. The audio world does not work like that.
   
  The WM8740 is a great chip. It's been used in all kinds of devices from lower priced to fairly high end. Here is a small sampling along with their MSRP, just for a general idea:
   
  Nationite S:Flo2 (under $200)
  Audinst HUD-mx1 ($179)
  Cambridge DacMagic ($429)
  Cambridge Azur 540C V2 ($499)
  Arcam Diva CD73T ($699)
  Rega Apollo ($999)
  YBA Design YC201 ($1600)
  Arcam Diva CD192 ($1688)
  Orpheus Zero CD player ($6000)
   
  Obviously you wouldn't lump all of these devices together as sounding the same, simply based on one element of their design.
   
   
  On built in amps: I am in favor of them as long as they are halfway decent. I don't care if you listen exclusively to a Zana Deux, a Luxman P1, or even a $5k Ear HP-4.... sometimes you find yourself needing to move things around, or send in your amp for service, or whatever. In those times, it is nice to have a spare amp on hand. The built in amps are one less box to keep in storage. I doubt they add a ton to the price, since the power supply and other parts are already in place. You might save a bit by leaving it out, but could never buy a decent standalone amp for that price, so why not keep it? It certainly doesn't harm anything, and on the CUBE it even appears you can deactivate it. That's just my opinion.
   
   
  In other news, I've got a CUBE shipping to me right now, should arrive next week. I'll post my initial impressions and pics when I get some time in with it.


----------



## Kuze

Yeah that's nice and all but the general audience already knows this, it's just a matter of preferences and where you're willing to put your money, i for one rather invest in the latest which can be had for the same price or less hence why we own the M stage and not the Lehmann's. Aesthetically the cube doesn't even match the M which i though was suppose to, I'm going out on a limb and say it doesn't even come in black!


----------



## clams

I'm thinking of buying the OPA-Moon from audio-gd to accompany my Matrix m-stage. Do any of you guys know if there will be compatibility issues? If not, I will go ahead and order it and report my findings!


----------



## Kuze

coolfungadget has them on sale for a few days, M-Stage $249 and Matrix Cube $269 if anybody is interested.


----------



## alphaphoenix

Damn.  I just paid $275 for mine two days ago.


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





alphaphoenix said:


> Damn.  I just paid $275 for mine two days ago.


 

 Send him an email and ask him to give you a credit


----------



## alphaphoenix

Quote: 





frank i said:


> Send him an email and ask him to give you a credit


 

 I just did.  Is the seller pretty responsive?  From a purely business perspective, I don't expect one, but it would be cool if he/she did refund the $25 as it's a pretty significant discount.   I'll just wait and see.


----------



## snakeeater69

^Seems like the $249 are the older version. 
  Anyways just got my m-stage version 2 and using it with a AKG 702 and it sounds awsome. I just need a decent DAC and I should be good to go.


----------



## alphaphoenix

Well the add does say *Matrix m-stage Headphone Amplifier New Second Edition.  *So, I'm assuming it means V2.


----------



## PANGES

Quote: 





kuze said:


> coolfungadget has them on sale for a few days, M-Stage $249 and Matrix Cube $269 if anybody is interested.


 

 Hmm. That's interesting. Does anyone have a Cube yet?


----------



## kite7

I just saw this posted today.
   
  http://www.headfonia.com/matrix-m-stage-class-a-biasing/
   
  Matrix Class-A Biasing mod
   
  "Without the Class-A biasing, I felt that the top treble frequencies are a bit restrained even with OPA627. With the Class-A biasing, I’m hearing a smoother and more linear treble extension, more refinement, and a more open sound."


----------



## SP Wild

Quote: 





kite7 said:


> I just saw this posted today.
> 
> http://www.headfonia.com/matrix-m-stage-class-a-biasing/
> 
> ...


 

 Looks like purrin has had a word to the reviewer over at headfonia.  Purrin posted these mods ages ago in this thread first!


----------



## kite7

Quote: 





sp wild said:


> Looks like purrin has had a word to the reviewer over at headfonia.  Purrin posted these mods ages ago in this thread first!


 

 I guess purrin should be getting the credit, thanks for that


----------



## jtam

Quote: 





snakeeater69 said:


> ^Seems like the $249 are the older version.
> Anyways just got my m-stage version 2 and using it with a AKG 702 and it sounds awsome. I just need a decent DAC and I should be good to go.


 

 It's the new version.


----------



## Kuze

The Biasing mod has gotten my attention, will this resistor do? http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Xicon/271-27K-RC/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMukHu%252bjC5l7YfwujGKVhMOq7HLTvN5Wgfg%3d


----------



## purrin

Quote: 





sp wild said:


> Looks like purrin has had a word to the reviewer over at headfonia.  Purrin posted these mods ages ago in this thread first!


 

 Headphonia did give me credit - I posted a short comment on the mod in his review. I'm glad Mike finally tried it out.
  
  Quote: 





kuze said:


> The Biasing mod has gotten my attention, will this resistor do? http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Xicon/271-27K-RC/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMukHu%252bjC5l7YfwujGKVhMOq7HLTvN5Wgfg%3d


 
   
  Yes. In fact, any of the parts from Radio Shack, Fry's Electronics, or other electronics parts stores will do.  Use 2.2 - 3.3k ohm.  You could use 1/8 watt if you feel comfortable working in a smaller size.


----------



## Kuze

Thanks Purrin, feel free to share more mods.


----------



## jtam

Hello everybody! I am back with a MOT status. Now coolfungadget is known as jtam.


----------



## spookygonk

That's great news.


----------



## Violet

Nice sale of Matrix Cube 24/192 ASRC DAC


----------



## kite7

For those of you who ordered on ebay from coolfungadget, did you get a shipping notice after you mentioned the color preference of the amp? I didn't receive any notifications after I was asked the color, which I replied since Sunday night
   
  edit: Nevermind tracking received


----------



## purrin

Quote: 





kuze said:


> Thanks Purrin, feel free to share more mods.


 
   
  Just some ideas - some very crazy - only #1 and #5 below has been tested:

 Solder bypass cap between +15 and -15 rails of opamp. 0.1uF?  
 Buy another one and go balanced with creative use of in and out adapters.
 Replace diodes with soft fast recovery.  (Can't do this with V2 - lacks room on board and may not be _as _necessary)
 Re-case unit, remove ~400uF caps and replace with big huge honkin' ASC oil/film caps (with wires off the board and caps secured off-board - with maybe smaller lower value bypass caps near on or on the board)
 Solder resistors on DIP socket piggyback adapters for plug-n-play class A.
 Replace transistors (I would have no idea where to begin.)


----------



## purrin

Class A plug-n-play adapter (avoids accidental destruction of expensive op-amps and save time while experimenting)
   

   
  Caps to remove (C21-C24), Jumper C21,C22, BEWARE OF SOURCE DC OFFSET:
   

   
  Finally, too lazy right now to open up and post photo of the 0.01uF WIMA bypass cap on bottom of board off the +/- 15 VDC pins of the op-amp.
   
  [placeholder for photo]
   
   
   
   
   
I think I've said this before, but I finally find this amp "acceptably good with fairly natural tone" - not that there is anything wrong with the stock configuration, not at all.  I will not hesitate to say that this has got to be one of the best deals period for headphone amps right now (I'm betting that this amp will cost more or almost as much if you purchased every individual component from Digikey, Mouser, etc.)


----------



## BlackstoneJD

I still don't understand how this amp sells for under $300 while the Lehmann Black Cube Linear goes for $1,100. Is it all markup? Can anyone even begin to account for the difference? Has anyone identified any price difference when it comes to the internal components? For example if you were to build a Lehmann Linear by hand what would it cost you? Now what about the Matrix V2?


----------



## purrin

Quote: 





blackstonejd said:


> I still don't understand how this amp sells for under $300 while the Lehmann Black Cube Linear goes for $1,100. Is it all markup? Can anyone even begin to account for the difference? Has anyone identified any price difference when it comes to the internal components? For example if you were to build a Lehmann Linear by hand what would it cost you? Now what about the Matrix V2?


 
   

 Very low labor costs and immense manufacturing competition within China
 Volume purchases of components by factories that tend to make a lot of different kinds of stuff with the same parts
 Willingness of middlemen (coolfungadget/jtam in this case) to work their ass off and allow discounts just to make a sale
 Volume sales approach - consider internal Chinese market where most folks demand value.
 Open discussion of merits of products, i.e. on _Head-fi_, etc.
 BCL has a much better case and volume knob
 The upper and lower metal shells of my M-stage case are off by about 0.1mm. The screw holes are not perfectly aligned with the case.  But I'm laughing all the all to the bank, while folks like _SP Wild_ (who has a real BLC, while happy for all of us, can perhaps only grin and bear it )
   
  This is very difficult for us American (US) citizens or westerners to fathom.  I hate to say it, but anything and everything in "high-end" audio (with the exception of digital) was solved and designed two generations ago.  What the Chinese manufacturers (enabled with the free flow of discourse in an open Internet) have done is to bring higher end audio to the masses.  Traditionally high-end audio was purely the domain of a few manufacturers in western nations.  It was also difficult for them to stay in business.  Costs were kept intentionally high, volume was low, equipment was marketed to men with money to burn, branding was essential.  
   
  Here's an analogy: I always make fun of my wife's cosmetic, skin care, etc. stuff, which can be pretty expensive.  There is so much marketing, B.S., testimonials from doctors, "experts", independent tests, on how great a skin care cream is, etc.  This actually works - it appeals to woman's vanity.  Now doesn't this all sound a little bit familiar?
   
  To put things into perspective, the XBOX, which is a far more complex device costs less than the M-Stage.
  --
   
  Looking at some internal pics of the Lehmann, the parts do not seem to be higher cost nor necessarily quality better. I see some German / European components in there, but this is pretty normal as European manufacturers tend to have a sense of national pride and therefore use parts made there rather going for the best bottom-line value.
   
  The M-Stage is similar to a two channel PPA with simplified diamond buffer (no CCS circuit). A PPA will cost between $200-$300 in parts alone. The parts quality of the M-Stage is indeed pretty good, just one step below magical audiophile parts like Blackgate caps, etc.


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





purrin said:


> Very low labor costs and immense manufacturing competition within China
> Volume purchases of components by factories that tend to make a lot of different kinds of stuff with the same parts
> Willingness of middlemen (coolfungadget/jtam in this case) to work their ass off and allow discounts just to make a sale
> Volume sales approach - consider internal Chinese market where most folks demand value.
> ...


 

 Excellent analogy. There is also another reason the Lehman is selling at that price. There is a distributor who sells to the stores that carry it at a 30 percent increase from 30-40 percent increase and then the stores put another 50 points on top. Here your buying from the Jeffrey and he is in essence the distributor or maybe even the manufacturer as this is not clear. The labor cost in China is very inexpensive and the cost to manufacture this product is not much. Check out parts cost caps are about 3.00 Opamps are less than 4.000 parts are not very expensive/ Still no has compared them side by side but I tell you for this money I do not believe this amp can be beat IMO.


----------



## jtam

Echo...
   
  Yesterday we did an A/B listening with Matrix mini-i and Benchmark DAC1u. Only comparing the D/A part, we can't really tell the difference.
   
  Many oversea distributors have approached me and showed interest to resell our products. I was excited in the beginning but sad to know that they want 50% margin at the end. I decided to stick with eBay and direct sale channels to keep a fair price/performance ratio.
   
  Sorry for off the topic...
   
  Quote: 





frank i said:


> Excellent analogy. There is also another reason the Lehman is selling at that price. There is a distributor who sells to the stores that carry it at a 30 percent increase from 30-40 percent increase and then the stores put another 50 points on top. Here your buying from the Jeffrey and he is in essence the distributor or maybe even the manufacturer as this is not clear. The labor cost in China is very inexpensive and the cost to manufacture this product is not much. Check out parts cost caps are about 3.00 Opamps are less than 4.000 parts are not very expensive/ Still no has compared them side by side but I tell you for this money I do not believe this amp can be beat IMO.


----------



## clams

Quote: 





jtam said:


> Echo...
> 
> Yesterday we did an A/B listening with Matrix mini-i and Benchmark DAC1u. Only comparing the D/A part, we can't really tell the difference.
> 
> ...


 

 Is the quality of the Cube DAC section better than the mini-i?
   
  Also, I bought the m-stage from you a few months ago. I have to say that it's a great product and the excellent customer service helped as well.


----------



## jtam

First, the two DACs use different DA chip from different manufacturer. Second, it's always difficult to say good or bad for products with similar price and tech specs. Let alone different headphones can give you totally different experience. I have started to ship the first batch of "cube". Let's wait and see the reaction.
  
  Quote: 





clams said:


> Is the quality of the Cube DAC section better than the mini-i?
> 
> Also, I bought the m-stage from you a few months ago. I have to say that it's a great product and the excellent customer service helped as well.


----------



## francisdemarte

> The M-Stage is similar to a two channel PPA with simplified diamond buffer (no CCS circuit). A PPA will cost between $200-$300 in parts alone. The parts quality of the M-Stage is indeed pretty good, just one step below magical audiophile parts like Blackgate caps, etc.


 

  
  If your interested look at the Lovely Cube thread, on page 2 there is a complete list of all parts needed for the build. Find all the parts on Mouser or Digi-Key and I suspect they would be close to or higher then the $100 the ebay seller is asking for a fully populated board. Parts in both M-Stage and Lovely Cube are very good, top of the line of just one step down from top of the line branded components. If price were no object you can probably build one with all top of the line boutique parts and it may still cost less then a real Lehmann.


----------



## ninjikiran

I just plumped down my cash for one of these(given they were discounted today otherwise I would of waited a bit longer), going to use it with the Maverick Audio D1 DAC output and AKG-K702's.  Read earlier in this thread that +10db setting is the best for them, is this accurate?  What would the implications be between the different gain settings besides the obvious volume gain.
   
  I was going to splurge on the Yulong D100 but money is a little bit tight atm and this amp fixes most of the problems I have with the D1's HPA as far as audible differences and is still a better HPA even if slightly so than the D100 so its future proof for when I do make that upgrade.(The HD800's are in my HP upgrade path as well some time in a long future.


----------



## purrin

+10db gain sounds about right.  Other implications?  Could be some superstition or voodoo magic beliefs on my part, but I don't like to run op-amps at zero (unity) gain because I don't think they sound their best.  I still run at +10db gain even for highly efficient headphones like Grados.


----------



## ninjikiran

Quote: 





purrin said:


> +10db gain sounds about right.  Other implications?  Could be some superstition or voodoo magic beliefs on my part, but I don't like to run op-amps at zero gain because I don't think they sound their best.  I still run at +10db gain even for highly efficient headphones like Grados.


 
   
  Thanks much~


----------



## Kuze

Not that it really matters but I'm going a different route for DAC, after hearing so many good things about the Gamma 2 I'm just going to build one which uses better chip from the same family as the Matrix Cube "Wolfson WM8741",  if my calculations are correct it will workout cheaper, just under $200 without enclosure.
  Don't get me wrong the Matrix Cube is still a good deal, but for those on a tight budget i think the Gamma 2 would be an excellent alternative.


----------



## sunneebear

Quote: 





kuze said:


> if my calculations are correct it will workout cheaper, just under $200 without enclosure.


 

 Decent enclosures can be quite expensive.  Then there is the cost of various hardware.  You can use cheap project boxes and economic hardware but then your gear will sound hi-end but will look like crap.  Your gear will look of much less value than any Chinese product.
   
  Edit:
  ebay has some decent looking enclosures at reasonable prices (China).  Add that to your build plus time and labor and the Cube and Mini-i might be cheaper.


----------



## Kuze

Yes I've already considered all factors, i guess it boils down to which sounds better, personally my money is on the Gamma 2... plus it comes in black


----------



## ninjikiran

I have an LT1364 and SUN HDAM.  Not sure whether to use the sun on the dac's gain stage or in the matrix amp same with the Lt1364.


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





jtam said:


> Echo...
> 
> Yesterday we did an A/B listening with Matrix mini-i and Benchmark DAC1u. Only comparing the D/A part, we can't really tell the difference.
> 
> ...


 

 Which would have put the street price anywhere from 650-700 for the amp. Pretty much where most other amps are. Good move and hopefully you sell many amps. Any new amps on t he horizon. Like something to compete with the higher end SS amps would be nice.


----------



## project86

My Matrix CUBE was just released from customs, so I should probably receive it in the next few days. Woohoo! As usual, extremely fast shipping from Coolfungadget/JTam.
   
  I plan on pairing it with my M-Stage (of course) as well as my new Maverick Tubemagic A1. I'll post some initial pics and impressions when I get it, but a full review will take a while.


----------



## ninjikiran

have you paired the M-Stage with the Maverick tube magic D1? (particularly the non-tube output)
  
  Quote: 





project86 said:


> My Matrix CUBE was just released from customs, so I should probably receive it in the next few days. Woohoo! As usual, extremely fast shipping from Coolfungadget/JTam.
> 
> I plan on pairing it with my M-Stage (of course) as well as my new Maverick Tubemagic A1. I'll post some initial pics and impressions when I get it, but a full review will take a while.


----------



## jtam

There's one amp being developed in the lab now, but it's not high end. Give me some higher end examples please.

  
  Quote: 





frank i said:


> Which would have put the street price anywhere from 650-700 for the amp. Pretty much where most other amps are. Good move and hopefully you sell many amps. Any new amps on t he horizon. Like something to compete with the higher end SS amps would be nice.


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





jtam said:


> There's one amp being developed in the lab now, but it's not high end. Give me some higher end examples please.


 

 Auditor V200 and Audio GD or Meir Concerto stuff. I was hoping for a true high end no compromise design.


----------



## project86

Quote: 





ninjikiran said:


> have you paired the M-Stage with the Maverick tube magic D1? (particularly the non-tube output)


 

 I just picked up the A1, but I have not tried the D1, so unfortunately I can't advise on that. I do know some people who love the D1 and prefer it to more expensive stuff (like DacMagic). So I assume the combo would be good.


----------



## gav007

I just got my V-Dac today and it does pair wonderfully with the M-stage, here are some pics:
   





   
  Wow!!! I didn't know what I was missing, I can now hear things I've never heard with my other setup... the clarity and separation is excellent! Back to more listening I go.


----------



## clams

Just installed a OPA Moon discrete OPA from audio-gd in my m-stage. It definitely lends it a more tubey sound but still maintains the clarity I love the m-stage for. Makes my K702s sound amazing with classical. More detailed impressions to come.


----------



## kite7

Quote: 





gav007 said:


> I just got my V-Dac today and it does pair wonderfully with the M-stage, here are some pics:
> 
> *snip*
> 
> Wow!!! I didn't know what I was missing, I can now hear things I've never heard with my other setup... the clarity and separation is excellent! Back to more listening I go.


 

 What was your source before the V-Dac?


----------



## gav007

Quote: 





kite7 said:


> What was your source before the V-Dac?


 

 It was the gamma1 lite


----------



## dlaloum

Having read the various postings on the Matrix M-Stage.... I started looking at it very seriously...
   
  Then I read the modding postings.... opamp rolling.... opa627, and biasing the opamp into class A
   
  So I contacted JTAM and asked whether the M-Stage could be ordered with the mods (ie with OPA627, or with OPA627 biased class A, or with OPA2134 biased class A) - his very prompt response was "Yes. Check my store https://coolfungadget.com/store/ in 3-5 days."
  ...
  Sounds like not only will people be able to order a top end Headamp economically - but with optional mods so you can then tune the amp to the type of sound signature you prefer.... (order it with several opamps perhaps, and some of them modded into class A)
   
  A true headphone geeks delight... I was going to order one yesterday, but given the respons - I will wait until he has the options up on the website so I can order it with alternative opamps for comparison at home....


----------



## olor1n

Hi guys. i'm new to all this and am after some advise on the best upgrade path with value as my main consideration. My gear is entry level and the M-Stage seems the logical next step. I'm not in pursuit of reference level audio. My library on my macbook is composed of mainly v0 or 320kb mp3s and is played through a Fiio E7 dac using Alessandro MS-1i headphones. I also have a cmoy/RA-1 clone with bass boost desktop amp that I employ by taking the dac out of the chain and just running the clone out of the macbook headphone out.
   
  I'm not entirely happy with this current setup and wish I'd read this thread before purchasing these amps. I don't regret the E7. It's versatile and can be utilised with my iPod touch using the lod. I also enjoy the Alessandros and hopefully won't be looking to upgrade the cans any time soon, although I would like acquire the 702s down the track. My main regret is that I am certain the Alessandros, even with my compressed audio files can sound better.
   
  I initially purchased a different RA-1 clone that impressed greatly from day 1 and in hindsight may have stumbled unto the well documented synergy of the RA-1 and Grado phones. Even from just the macbook headphone out the clarity and precision it provided was an eye opener. It opened up the sound stage, presented shimmering highs without harshness and bass that was precise and had impact without being muddy and overbearing. I loved this amp. It wasn't about the gear at this point, but about how much I was enjoying the music (some may agree that this is the core of this hobby).
   
  Unfortunately that amp presented a fault and now to my great regret I sought a replacement from the seller who obliged with my naive request for what I thought would be a similar sounding amp (considering identical components) but with a bass boost dial. I've come to accept that the synergy is lost. What I have now is a sound that is somewhat artificial in comparison, I think you guys may refer to this as the equipment colouring the sound. The soundstage, separation and clarity is also gone and more  importantly I've lost that sense of enjoyment and am constantly lamenting what I've lost. I feel the same about the E7 which I recently acquired but that can be forgiven for its versatility.
   
  Sorry about that long rant but would you guys recommend the M-Stage as my next purchase? I can only justify one item at this stage and I'm hoping that the mythical Fiio E7 lod cable will eventually surface so I can utilise the dac (which is a Wolfson WM8740) with this amp. I'm also hoping the M-Stage pairs well with entry level Alessandros and there's a noticeable improvement even if I can't use a dac. The alternative is just purchasing a Matrix mini-i but I find the scalability of the M-Stage more appealing.
   
  Thanks guys... I wish I'd never come across this forum.


----------



## ninjikiran

The Class-A biasing mod(don't completely understand the reasoning) looks extremely simple to do on your own as well.  Obviously having it done for you is easier but just by modding a Dip8 machine point socket you can make a bias'ed socket and use any opamp you want .  There is no risk in doing this and you can get a gold plated socket for $1 ea, or a non-gold plated for half that.
   
  A Soldering Iron from Radioshack should fit the bill, as well as their solder(don't need anything special)


----------



## purrin

> Sorry about that long rant but would you guys recommend the M-Stage as my next purchase?


 
   
  You came from an RA-1 clone, which if it used the JRC4556 op-amp, will sound very different from the M-Stage.  The RA-1 or actually JRC4556 synergizes very well with Grados.  It's warm, got a little bit of a dirty and grungy sound, tempers the mid-high bump of Grados, and provides just enough current (for an op-amp) to provide decent bass. Although IMO the stock M-stage is slightly warm; but compared to the RA-1, it may sound a little bit on the bright side.  I hesitate to say that the M-Stage won't work, as the treble is smooth enough, and a lot also depends on your source. To put things into perspective, there are other solid-state amps that don't gel well at all with Grados such as the higher end Headroom amps (LOL, maybe that's why the the Headroom site rates Grados 4 stars instead of 5. Their amps do play well with Denons and Senns however).
   
  What the M-Stage will do (compared to RA-1) is provide you with a magnitude of greater clarity, low level detail retrieval, bass control, transient control and "speed", and extension. Personally I had no problems with the stock M-Stage and Grados, but to reiterate, the M-Stage is not one of those amps tailored for Grados if you know what I mean. I'll say it again and again - careful component matching is more critical than slapping expensive stuff together. You obviously know this.
   
  The nice thing about the M-Stage is that you have many possibilities to tweak the sound. I said in a earlier post that I didn't think it was possible to make the amp warmer, but now I realize I was wrong. Pushing the LM4562 into class A (you make can the aforementioned adapter socket w/o risk of destroying anything - see my photos of the class A adapter I made a few posts back) warms up the amp. The more you push, the warmer the sound. I've confirmed this with extended back and forth listening. My initial class A LM4562 was biased with a 4.7k resistor for 3.2 mA, which seemed just a slight hair bright with my setup. I then tested with a 2.7k resistor for 5.6mA which sounded way too warm. I've finally settled on 3.3k - just a hair warm. Just an FYI - this behavior only applies to the LM4562. Other op-amps can behave way differently.
   
  My M-Stage has the input caps removed, which makes it even brighter. The stock op-amp OPA2132 has a little bit of a U-shaped FR curve. I think a straight LM4562 swap (no class A) will sound darker (and also more detailed, more impactful, and less bass-tubby) compared to stock OPA2132. This may give you the sound balance that you are looking for. Still it won't sound like the RA-1 which almost has a romantic fuzzy quality to it. LOL, I still have my homemade OPA2107/JRC4556 A47 CMOY variant for that reason!


----------



## Kuze

Never bothered taking notice coolfungadget now selling headphone stands, and they look pretty decent too.
https://coolfungadget.com/store/index.php?route=product/category&path=40


----------



## buz

So I just swapped an AD797BR into the M-Stage. The main difference that I notice is that gain seems to be lower now (subjectively need to turn up further to get the same volume out of it) - is that possible or is there something wrong?


----------



## lescanard

Quote: 





kuze said:


> Word! I must have never bothered taking notice coolfungadget now selling headphone stands, and they look pretty decent too.
> https://coolfungadget.com/store/index.php?route=product/category&path=40


 

 Those look very nice - gonna pick a couple up I think.


----------



## project86

Quote: 





kuze said:


> Word! I must have never bothered taking notice coolfungadget now selling headphone stands, and they look pretty decent too.
> https://coolfungadget.com/store/index.php?route=product/category&path=40


 


 I picked up one almost like this along with the Matrix Cube DAC, and they both arrived to me the other day. I'll post more when I can but I have to say these headphone stands are top quality. They look and feel very high end, and I don't feel out of place putting a very expensive headphone on them.
   
  One thing that is not obvious from the picture is that the wood piece slides out if you don't want to use it. So you can choose an all metal look, or the wood/metal look, depending on what matches your headphones. Very clever.


----------



## AlfBaxter

Does anyone know the recommended input voltage range for the M-Stage? I have it connected to an Auzen Prelude soundcard, and would like to keep all Windows volumes at 100%. (I've tested for clipping and the card is fine at 100%.) The Prelude line out is rated at 5V RMS - is that going to be too much for the amp without some attenuation in Windows?


----------



## ninjikiran

Put your prelude into bit-matched and that should give you +-0db volume out of the analog outs.  I really dunno from there never used my preludes dac with an amp but I know its a bit more complicated than an external dac due to its functionality and software options.
   
   
  Anyway regardless of that, you should be fine even at max volume to the amp. 
  
  Quote: 





alfbaxter said:


> Does anyone know the recommended input voltage range for the M-Stage? I have it connected to an Auzen Prelude soundcard, and would like to keep all Windows volumes at 100%. (I've tested for clipping and the card is fine at 100%.) The Prelude line out is rated at 5V RMS - is that going to be too much for the amp without some attenuation in Windows?


----------



## Sganzerla

Dear guys, after reading so much about this amp and its sinergy with K701 I had to buy one too, here is mine, arrived yesterday:
   

   

   
   My first impression is that it makes my K701 control everything better, some of the harshness transforms in soundstage, a huge one, detail is monstrous, but there are things bothering me a little.
   
   One of the problems I hear right now is some harshness trough a region of the highs, I can't say which specific frequency is, but this is apparent with some music, something my Compass and MSSH don't do.
   
   Second is the bass, I tought would be better than what I had before but it is not the case here, at this moment, it is tighter, more extended, but I think the quantity from MSSH is higher.
   
   Hopefully burn in will improve these aspects soon, or at least a change in power cord (stock yet). My unit has 24 hours of use, more or less.
   
   My unit was bought from AudiophileChina and my economy was around US$ 50.00 buying from them instead of eBay (because the shipping to my continent). Stock opamp is said to be OPA2134, but I don't have the tools here to open and confirm.
   
   My Beyerdynamic DT880/600 had brief time trough my head, and if I remember well, it sounded a little more open with my MSSH (!?!). I'll try it more in a few days to see what happens.
   
   I have some more questions to more experienced users, and hope you can help me as my knowledge in eletronics is very small and my English is not the best.
   
   - Is it possible to mount Earth HDAM in place of the original opamp? Is there any risk of damage trying my LME49860NA with this unit?
   
   - Could someone please link where on eBay can I have buy the adapter and resistors I need to turn my opamps into class A? My LM4562 is reaching home...


----------



## ninjikiran

Quote: 





> Quote:Originally Posted by *Sganzerla*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Question 1: Looks like a standard Dip8 connection.  You can easily mount any Audio-GD hdam into it.  If the LME4986NA is like any other opamp you should not damage anything.
   
  Question 2: Couldn't tell you where to buy the resistors in your country but you would probably have to buy them and then solder them into a dip8 socket.  I suggest the top of the dip8 socket be flat and the pins be Machine Point and not leaf to easily fit into the socket already on the board.  Just read the guide I guess or someone can tell you the amount of each resistor. 
   
  My question is if you can get the dual AD797's in without any kind of self soldering job.  (2xSOICtoDIP8 ----> Single Package Dip 8)


----------



## francisdemarte

Quote: 





ninjikiran said:


> My question is if you can get the dual AD797's in without any kind of self soldering job.  (2xSOICtoDIP8 ----> Single Package Dip 8)


 

 AD797's also come in DIP8, you can use a Brown Dog Single-to-Dual adapter with the DIP sockets installed and you won't have to do any soldering.
   
http://cimarrontechnology.com/single-to-dualop-ampadapter-dipversionpn021001.aspx
   
  Soldering is actually quite easy and inexpensive, I don't know why so many people are afraid of it. Soldering an op amp takes 15 minutes tops, 10 minutes of which is waiting for the iron to heat up.


----------



## jtam

This is how I install Audio-gd OPA-MOON in my m-stage.
   

   
  This is how I make my class a biasing adapter.


----------



## dlaloum

Hi JTam
   
  what resistor value is that - and is it available with various resistor values?
  ie are the options that purrin tried in the posting above - 4.7k, 3.3k, 2.7k available?
   
  As an additional question - is there any (reasonably easy) way to mod the PSU for additional voltage? - eg: to raise voltage to +/- 18V rather than the standard +/- 15V
   
  thanks
   
  David


----------



## jtam

If you follows Michael's posts on headfonia, you'd know that 2k7 generates too much heat for the opamp. 4k7 used by purrin may be too safe.
   
  I tried 3k and measured 4.7mA current. But the opamp is still too hot (50'C measured by an infrared meter). Then I went 3k9 as a compromise. The sound is super smooth and warm. While the opamp is only 35'C with the hood open in a 28'C room.
   
  Why do you want to go +/- 18V?
  
  Quote: 





dlaloum said:


> Hi JTam
> 
> what resistor value is that - and is it available with various resistor values?
> ie are the options that purrin tried in the posting above - 4.7k, 3.3k, 2.7k available?
> ...


----------



## Kuze

Quote:


jtam said:


> This is how I install Audio-gd OPA-MOON in my m-stage.


 
   
  So is it worth a try, how does it sound?


----------



## jtam

As a MOT, I don't wanna post any subjective comments. One thing to point out is that the sound doesn't change when dis/connecting the ground pin.
  
  Quote: 





kuze said:


> Quote:
> 
> So is it worth a try, how does it sound?


----------



## purrin

Quote: 





dlaloum said:


> Hi JTam
> 
> what resistor value is that - and is it available with various resistor values?
> ie are the options that purrin tried in the posting above - 4.7k, 3.3k, 2.7k available?
> ...


 


  2.7k does get hot - it depends upon your ambient temps. It gets cold at night (when I do most of my listening) where I live in the S.F. Bay Area. To be safe, glue a heatsink (e.g., one of those small graphics card heatsinks for memory chips) to the op-amp. I'm currently using a 3.3k on an LM4562 without a heatsink though, but I don't care about possibly destroying my stuff (well at least not the M-Stage).  Looking at the specs, you kind of don't want to go over 5mA for most op-amps, up to 7mA is really pushing it, and you get the majority of the results at ~2mA or even less.

 Typical values are 2.2k, 2.7k, 3.3k, 3.9k and 4,7k. It worth exploring all values - on some op-amps, the sound balance can change. To reiterate a previous post (since things get so easily buried and I see the same questions over and over again, even in PMs):
   

```
WARM       WARMER (sound balance - LM4562 - other op-amps may act differently 4.7k <--->   2.2k COOL       BURNING (temps)
```
 
 Yes, it's possible to mod the unit for +/- 18v (36v), but I don't know why you would want to do that - you maybe can get a wee bit more power from the current output section, but it's not going to sound better. Some op-amps do perform better with more voltage, but we are talking like going from 9V to 24V. Also keeping the PS at +/- 15v offers the most compatibility with most op-amps (quite a few can't handle more than 30V).


----------



## jtam

Oh yeah, glue some heatsink for computer video card to the opamp is a good idea.
  
  Quote: 





purrin said:


> 2.7k does get hot - it depends upon your ambient temps. It gets cold at night (when I do most of my listening) where I live in the S.F. Bay Area. To be safe, glue a heatsink (e.g., one of those small graphics card heatsinks for memory chips) to the op-amp. I'm currently using a 3.3k on an LM4562 without a heatsink though, but I don't care about possibly destroying my stuff (well at least not the M-Stage).
> 
> Typical values are 2.2k, 2.7k, 3.3k, 3.9k and 4,7k. It worth exploring all values - on some op-amps, the sound balance can change.
> 
> Yes, it's possible to mod the unit for +/- 18v (36v), but I don't know why you would want to do that - you maybe can get a wee bit more power from the current output section, but it's not going to sound better. Some op-amps do perform better with more voltage, but we are talking like going from 9V to 24V. Also keeping the PS at +/- 15v offers the most compatibility with most op-amps (quite a few can't handle more than 30V).


----------



## purrin

Jtam: So when are you going to come out with the balanced version of the M-Stage with class A (maybe dip switch options), a direct-couple switch (for straight wire to avoid input caps), and film bypass caps for each of the ~470uF electrolytic caps for the output transistors?


----------



## purrin

Quote: 





> One of the problems I hear right now is some harshness trough a region of the highs, I can't say which specific frequency is, but this is apparent with some music, something my Compass and MSSH don't do.
> 
> Second is the bass, I tought would be better than what I had before but it is not the case here, at this moment, it is tighter, more extended, but I think the quantity from MSSH is higher.
> 
> ...


 
   

 Harshness of highs will never fully go away. It's inherent with the design. You get some good things (bass control), and some not so good (slightly grainy highs). But at the price you can't complain. Try your LM49860, it's a higher voltage of the LME49720, which is the same thing at the LM4562 which I am currently using. Those chips are slightly smoother and less trebly than stock OPA2134. If you want to do something very involved, you can solder 0.1uF film caps to bypass the 470uF electrolytic caps feeding the output transistors on the underside of the PCB. This will result in a slightly more liquid, smoother, and less grainy sound.
 Need more bass quantity: Push LM49860 or LM4562 more into class A.
 HDAM will work.  LM49860 will work (I just checked the spec sheets to make sure the chip wasn't something odd)
 You can't buy the adapters. I made my own. I've sent a few to folks who have asked for them, but only in the U.S.


----------



## vincponc2610

Quote: 





jtam said:


> If you follows Michael's posts on headfonia, you'd know that 2k7 generates too much heat for the opamp. 4k7 used by purrin may be too safe.
> 
> I tried 3k and measured 4.7mA current. But the opamp is still too hot (50'C measured by an infrared meter). Then I went 3k9 as a compromise. The sound is super smooth and warm. While the opamp is only 35'C with the hood open in a 28'C room.
> 
> Why do you want to go +/- 18V?


 
 Would you provide a socket for class A with a resistor and a FET transistor, as described in http://tangentsoft.net/audio/opamp-bias.html ?
  They say that resistor alone is not good as the bias change with the voltage. The FET transistor would make it as a current source, and a high impedance load on the opamp, which is said to be better.
  A FET transistor might not cost so much, I do not know.


----------



## dlaloum

Hi Jtam,
   
  I don't mind a little heat and I have plenty of RAM heatsinks.... but I very much do appreciate the information and input!!
   
  I have been learning about opamps over the last couple of weeks (last time I looked at them was more than 20 years ago...)
   
  Come across specific mentions of opamps like the 2604 performing very differently (better) at higher voltages.
   
  Looking through the opamp specs - many of them are rated at 18V ... Which led to my asking the question.
   
  However when I thought about it some more, allowing a +/- 10% allowance for mains variation (the mains here are supposed to be 240V, but I frequently see 250V+) that would imply a system designed for 16V @ 240V mains.... and at that stage we are so close to the standard 15V it doesn't really seem worth the effort..... (which probably partly explains the common choice of 15V on a lot of non portable amps)
   
  thanks
   
  David


----------



## jtam

Working on a balanced amp but not based on m-stage. Maybe just leave that to DIY users.
  
  Quote: 





purrin said:


> Jtam: So when are you going to come out with the balanced version of the M-Stage with class A (maybe dip switch options), a direct-couple switch (for straight wire to avoid input caps), and film bypass caps for each of the ~470uF electrolytic caps for the output transistors?


----------



## purrin

Quote:


vincponc2610 said:


> Would you provide a socket for class A with a resistor and a FET transistor, as described in http://tangentsoft.net/audio/opamp-bias.html ?
> They say that resistor alone is not good as the bias change with the voltage. The FET transistor would make it as a current source, and a high impedance load on the opamp, which is said to be better.
> A FET transistor might not cost so much, I do not know.


   
  If you are going to go that route, a single CRD might be a better fit.  Wiring 2x transistor and resistor over and around the adapter may be kind of clumsy.  Here a good CRD part: 1N5311 for 3.6mA:
   
  http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Central-Semiconductor/1N5311/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMuCl5o%252b%2fAuPoGKE10iyeHby%252bP%2fxUOFR10E%3d

 They are a quite a bit more expensive than resistors and you will need two of them.  Hmm, I think I'm going to order a few of these myself and try them out.


----------



## Sganzerla

Guys, thank you very much!
   
   I bought an adapter and some resistors, now I'll wait for them to come home and do my mods. Soon I will buy an Earth HDAM to try with my Matrix too!


----------



## purrin

Does anyone know if the Earth HDAM even needs to be biased into class A?  I'm pretty sure the Moon is already biased Class A though.


----------



## jtam

Quote: 





purrin said:


> Does anyone know if the Earth HDAM even needs to be biased into class A?  I'm pretty sure the Moon is already biased Class A though.


----------



## ninjikiran

Just make sure to get the optional Dip8 extension with the hdam, it won't sit in its upright position without cutting a hole in the chassis.
   
  My sheesh this device gets hot, the chassis is drawing quite a bit more heat than my previous unit even with the tube installed.  Hot enough for my hand to feel some discomfort but not that burning. 
   
  Far as opamps go the stock sounds fine to me.  Might make a biased socket one day for fun but don't feel like it atm,


----------



## project86

Here's the Matrix Cube DAC that arrived last week:
   
   
   
   

   
   

   
   
   
  I also picked up one of the Tam's Audio headphone stands, which is very nice. Headphones obviously not provided by JTam....
   
   

   
   

   
   
   

   
   
  I've got a lot more listening to do, but so far the Cube is quite nice, roughly on the level of the DacMagic and V-DAC, which I consider to be the gatekeepers of the semi-budget DAC world. I'll post more when I can.


----------



## JoetheArachnid

I honestly don't know which is prettier: the headphone stand or the red PS1000s. (Or the combo itself)
  Oh, and the Cube looks nice too. It's slightly out of my budget at the moment though, which I'm considering stretching to an M-Stage and a uDac 2 or Musiland 02 US. Looking forward to your review, though - maybe it'll swing me to add another $150 or so to the audio spend...


----------



## daltonlanny

Matrix M-stage + OPA627's + 3.3k Class A biasing = OMG awesome!
  I bought a stock Matrix M-stage from a headfi member about 3 weeks ago, and I thought it sounded fairly good with all of my headphones, especially my new AKG K702's. It also sounded good with my Sennhesier HD600's and decent with my Beyerdynamic DT880's. With all the headphones, and compared to my Headroom Micro Amp, it had a smooth, creamy, slightly warm sound, with a slight heaviness in the bass, a slightly glazed midrange, good highs, and a good soundstage. Like all posters have said, there is a great synergy between the M-stage and the AKG's. Not so good with the Beyers.
  My HD600's and the Beyers sounded better on the Headroom Micro amp, IMHO.
  Both of my Beyer DT880's sounded sort of bland, processed, and sort of boring through the stock M-stage.
  I much preferred the sound of the Beyers through the Headroom amp, and I also prefererred the 600's through the Headroom.
  The Headroom was more lively, more extended in the highs, and more forward in the mids than the stock M-stage.
  I recently purchased a pair of BB OPA627 op amps mounted on a Cimarron Technology Browndog dual-to-single adapter and tried it instead of the stock OPA2134.
  The sound improved a couple of notches in some areas, but nothing to justify the high price of the OPA627's.
  Compared to the stock op amp, the 627's have a slightly more natural sound that is smoother, richer, slightly more open, and has a wider soundstage. However, the sound seems even more laid-back, and their seems to be even slightly less extension on top than the stock op amp, IMHO. There was also a very slight hardness to the sound somewhere in the upper mids that I really did not care alot for.
  Last night I received one of the Cimarron Technology "piggy back" plugs that purrin referred to, and I installed two 3.3k resistors on it for more class A biasing.
  I then took the Browndog adapter, with the two OPA627's on it, unplugged it from the M-stage.
  I then plugged the adapter into the "piggy back" with the resistors, and then plugged the "piggy back" and the adapter into the M-stage.
  BINGO!
  Wow, what a difference!
  I could not believe my ears. The sound improved across the board.
  The soundstage opened up quite dramatically, the highs are more airy, open, and extended, the mids are smooth, very detailed, and natural, and the bass is tight, punchy, and very well defined.
  The hardness I mentioned above is gone, and the overall sound is more alive, and much more involving.
  I am now VERY glad I purchased the OPA627's on the adapter, the "piggy back" and the resistors.
  My K702's sound absolutely wonderful on this set-up. I can now actually listen to the AKG's, and really enjoy them, without getting listening fatigue. The 600's sound absolutely wonderful as well. The Beyers, especially the 2003's, are now in a different league as well.
  The Matrix M-stage is now surpassing my Headroom Micro Amp for a change, and I am now preferring the M-stage to the Headroom with all of my cans, except maybe the Beyer DT880/600.
  The Beyer DT880/600 sounds alittle better than with the stock op amp, but does not show as much improvement as the other ones, for some strange reason.
  I still think I may prefer them with the Headroom amp.
  The unit does run _slightly_ warmer, but not as much as I was expecting.
  I also have a Schiit Asgard on the way, and I cannot wait to compare them.


----------



## kite7

Quote: 





daltonlanny said:


> I then took the Browndog adapter, with the two OPA627's on it, unplugged it from the M-stage.
> I then plugged the adapter into the "piggy back" with the resistors, and then plugged the "piggy back" and the adapter into the M-stage.
> BINGO!
> Wow, what a difference!
> ...


 

 I can't wait to try biasing when I get my OPA627's, sounds like it makes a great improvement. It'll be very interesting to compare the M-stage against the Asgard. I'm willing to bet there's a lot of people curious about this comparison.
   
  How hot is the opamp itself when biased with 3.3k resistors? Can you keep a finger on it?
   

  
  Quote: 





			
				project86 said:
			
		

> I've got a lot more listening to do, but so far the Cube is quite nice, roughly on the level of the DacMagic and V-DAC, which I consider to be the gatekeepers of the semi-budget DAC world. I'll post more when I can.


 
   
  It'd be great if you could compare the headphone out against the Yulong D100's headphone out or a stock M-Stage with OPA2134 opamp unbiased. I'm quite interested in knowing how they compare.


----------



## daltonlanny

Quote: 





kite7 said:


> I can't wait to try biasing when I get my OPA627's, sounds like it makes a great improvement. It'll be very interesting to compare the M-stage against the Asgard. I'm willing to bet there's a lot of people curious about this comparison.
> 
> How hot is the opamp itself when biased with 3.3k resistors? Can you keep a finger on it?
> 
> ...


 


 I can easily keep my finger on the unit, even after its been on and playing over an hour.
  It runs alittle hotter, but no big deal at all to me for the big improvement in sound that I have achieved!


----------



## daisangen

Has anybody apart from cfg (who unfortunately won't comment on the sound) tried the Audio-GD discretes with this amp? I'd love to hear impressions of them. I'm particularly interested in Earth.


----------



## Kuze

Which OPA627 is this?
  
  Quote: 





daltonlanny said:


> Matrix M-stage + OPA627's + 3.3k Class A biasing = OMG awesome!


----------



## project86

Quote: 





kite7 said:


> It'd be great if you could compare the headphone out against the Yulong D100's headphone out or a stock M-Stage with OPA2134 opamp unbiased. I'm quite interested in knowing how they compare.


 

 I will be doing a detailed review but it will take a while. So far I'm thinking the headphone amp in the Cube is EXCELLENT with IEMs, perhaps better than the M-Stage or the D100. But with regular headphones it is probably not in the same league as those other 2. Again, these are just my initial findings, things could change when I spend more time with it.


----------



## purrin

Quote: 





daltonlanny said:


> Last night I received one of the Cimarron Technology "piggy back" plugs that purrin referred to, and I installed two 3.3k resistors on it for more class A biasing.
> I then took the Browndog adapter, with the two OPA627's on it, unplugged it from the M-stage.
> I then plugged the adapter into the "piggy back" with the resistors, and then plugged the "piggy back" and the adapter into the M-stage.
> BINGO!
> ...


 
   
  Awesome!  Some of the BB op-amps are known for responding very well to class A biasing.  But yes, my experience was similar to your's.  Kind of like "Holy Cow!"


----------



## purrin

Quote: 





kuze said:


> Which OPA627 is this?


 

  It's probably the AU surface mount version if Lanny got it from Cimmaron Tech.  The OPA627SM tin can package is supposed to be even better.


----------



## Kuze

Yeah I've heard about the SM versions for sometime now, but its pretty expensive, i have the OPA637BP that's why i asked. Fake or not I'm going to try getting the SM version for $10 from china and see if it makes a difference.


----------



## daltonlanny

Quote: 





purrin said:


> It's probably the AU surface mount version if Danny got it from Cimmaron Tech.  The OPA627SM tin can package is supposed to be even better.


 

 Yes, it is indeed the AU version of the BB OPA627 that I am using.
  Lanny


----------



## LokiS

Hello, sorry if this is a major bump on the thread but would appreciate some info and assistance regarding a M-stage problem I'm having. Basically I'm having a distortion issue on the AMP when increasing volume on my PC, I can't have the volume setting any higher then 40-50% or distortion will occur. I changed the sound cards out with a new card and the same problem was there. I was told this
   
  Quote:


> The distortion experienced on problem 1 is likely due to over sensitive input circuit in your amp as the distortion comes in at higher volumes. If it was a ground loop the the sound would have a lot of noise when little or no signal is present such as a loud hum or buzz. Problem number one is most definately a problem with your amp not the card.


 
  I'm pretty much buggered.. Is there anyway I could try manually fix this on the M-Stage inside?, and also how can I prevent this happening in the future when buying amps?, is it located within the specs?, any help is much appreciated, thank you.

 For note, a more detail description on the problem I'm having is here in my thread (http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/511616/essence-stx-into-dedicated-amp-two-problems-ran-out-of-options


----------



## ninjikiran

Be careful when messing with the volume on your sound card settings.  You can actually go over 100% which could distort on an amp if you overdo it.
   
  I have an x-fi prelude, but only use the digital outputs which bypass any kind of volume control(except for the one on the audio player which is set to not modulate either).  If your card has ASIO drivers, give it a whirl~ See what happens.  That will cut out everything from the equation by default.
   
  I just connected my X-Fi Prelude via analog out to my Matrix M-Stage(I had before with my Maverick D1 as well) and in Audio Creation mode with Bit-Matched playback I get no distortion.
  
  On a side note Daisy chaining amps results in static and/or pops.  I also don't pop in games.
  Quote: 





lokis said:


> Hello, sorry if this is a major bump on the thread but would appreciate some info and assistance regarding a M-stage problem I'm having. Basically I'm having a distortion issue on the AMP when increasing volume on my PC, I can't have the volume setting any higher then 40-50% or distortion will occur. I changed the sound cards out with a new card and the same problem was there. I was told this
> 
> Quote:
> I'm pretty much buggered.. Is there anyway I could try manually fix this on the M-Stage inside?, and also how can I prevent this happening in the future when buying amps?, is it located within the specs?, any help is much appreciated, thank you.
> ...


----------



## LokiS

Thanks for the reply.

 I did try bypassing the amp via (analog out?, line out? not sure what the correct term is) connection on the STX instead but the distortion was still present. The older card I also tried was a X-fi gamer that has no added amp on it and was getting very bad distortion even when the volume on the creative panel was only at 25%.  Using the X-fi card isn't really an option when using the amp, the volume has to be low to avoid distortion and the only way to increase the volume is pretty much maxing the amp which is to risky to the headphones and the amp itself I'd imagine.

 I'm tempted to just grab the Heed Canamp but want to be absolutely sure that its the amp thats the issue. It only does this when the amp is in, without I can max the volume like normal without issue. Any ideas?


----------



## project86

Quote: 





lokis said:


> Thanks for the reply.
> 
> I did try bypassing the amp via (analog out?, line out? not sure what the correct term is) connection on the STX instead but the distortion was still present. The older card I also tried was a X-fi gamer that has no added amp on it and was getting very bad distortion even when the volume on the creative panel was only at 25%.  Using the X-fi card isn't really an option when using the amp, the volume has to be low to avoid distortion and the only way to increase the volume is pretty much maxing the amp which is to risky to the headphones and the amp itself I'd imagine.
> 
> I'm tempted to just grab the Heed Canamp but want to be absolutely sure that its the amp thats the issue. It only does this when the amp is in, without I can max the volume like normal without issue. Any ideas?


 
   
  We need to figure out definitively if the problem lies in the sound card/PC configuration or in the amp itself. Have you tried the amp with any other source? You probably have a DVD player or some other piece of audio gear around the house. Connect the M-Stage to that and see if the problem persists. If not, then you have some issue with your PC setup. The worst thing you could do is rush out and buy another amp, only to find that the problem still exists.


----------



## dlaloum

This type of problem can also happen with software driver issues - I recently updated drivers on a motherboard sound chip and suddenly had distortion and other problems - reverted to older drivers and the problem went away....
   
  Was the soundcard previously working ok? 
  Was there a software update?
  Driver issues can also be caused by some sort of software interference from something else that was installed... so check whether you installed or updated something else and that was when the problem started.


----------



## daltonlanny

Modded M-stage version1 and Schiit Asgard comparison, [YMMV]:
  Using a Marantz CD5001 and Marantz CD5003 cd players, Audioquest Black Mamba and Signal Cable Silver Resolution interconnects, AKG K702 and Sennheiser HD600 headphones, I have extensively compared the Schiit Asgard and my modified Matrix M-stage V1 with Class A biased BB OPA627AU op amps.
  They are both outstanding sounding amps, and choosing one over the other is very difficult indeed!
  The Asgard has a warmer and smoother overall sound, very slightly less treble extension, and slightly less dynamic punch than the modded M-stage. It has a softer overall midrange, but at the same time the mids seem to be just slightly more detailed, and slightly fuller than on the M-stage. The Asgard also sounds much better after it has heated up completely. When its cold it sounds sort of flat and dull, IMHO.
  The modded M-stage sounds slightly more lively, slightly punchier, and has slightly more bass punch than the Asgard.
  The M-stage also has a very slight edginess to certain vocals that the Asgard does not exhibit. The M-stage can be very slightly more fatiguing than the Asgard on some material.
  The soundstage is extremely close on both units. The Asgard may have just a touch more soundstage width than the M-stage, but its close. The M-stage has slightly more "air" in the soundstage than the Asgard, but again, its very close.
  The Asgard runs much hotter than the M-stage, even though my M-stage is biased into class A with two 3.3K resistors.
  The M-stage sounds slightly better with the K702's, and the Asgard sounds alittle better with the HD600's, but both headphones sound great with both of the amps, to be honest.
  The M-stage drives my Beyerdynamic DT880/600 ohm version alittle louder and with slightly more authority than the Asgard, and about the same or maybe alittle less than the Headroom.
  The DT880/600 probably sounds alittle better through the M-stage than through the Asgard, to be honest.
  Both of the amps slightly surpass the sonics of my Headroom Micro Amp.
  The Headroom does have the most output power, believe it or not!
  The Headroom is a very powerful, punchy little amp that sounds great with all of my headphones, but it can sound slightly more edgy, more forward in the upper mids, amd slightly more closed in than either the Asgard or the M-stage. Believe it or not, my Beyerdynamic DT880/2003, and Beyerdynamic DT880/600 ohms actually have a slightly better synergy with the Headroom than either of the other two amps, for some strange reason!
  The M-stage and the Asgard have a slightly smoother and more natural midrange, a wider soundstage with a little more "air" than the Headroom. The bass on the Headroom is close to the Asgard, and the M-stage may have slightly more bass punch than either one of them.
  To be completely honest, I do not really have a preference for either amp right now.
  This has been a very interesting comparison to say the least!


----------



## Frank I

Nice write up. Which version do you have of the Matrix. I kinda like the sound of mine without tuning it, I have the original and I love it. I find it dynamic,powerful and has great detail and a very good soundstage but I am using it mostly with my D7000. But glad someone finally did a side by side to show how good this Matrix really is hell Project 86 has the 3K luxman he put it up against. I am still impressed with the amp. Thanks for the input


----------



## daltonlanny

Hi Frank,
   
  Thanks alot for the kind words. I appreciate it.
  My version is the 1st version. It does sound really great stock as well. My problem is that I am always wanting to experiment.
  I just ordered a HeadAmp GS-1 headphone amp, and I am curious on how it will compare to the Matrix as well. I used to own one, but it has been so long ago, that I forgot how it sounded!
  I was also using a Marantz SA8001 as a source with it, but now I am using the Marantz CD5001 and CD5003, which are a step down in overall sound quality compared to the 8001, IMHO.
  I sure do regret selling the SA8001 that I used to have. It had about the best overall audio reproduction that I have ever heard in a consumer cd/sacd player.
  I will edit the post above and include that it was the Matrix M-stage V1.


----------



## Kuze

V2 is said to sound tad better, personally i don't really agree with your op-amp choice but good review none the less and thanks for your input. Interested in seeing how the Stage stacks up to a $900 amp, looking forward to your report, cheers.


----------



## daltonlanny

Thanks Kuze,
   
  Yeah, I am looking forward to comparing the GS-1 to the M-stage as well, but it may be quite a while before the GS-1 arrives at my door.
  Yeah, I was kind of disappointed in the sound of the BB OPA 627AU's as well, that is until I biased them into class A using the 3.3K resistors. This made a BIG difference, IMHO.
  I may also try the stock BB OPA 2134 biased into class A as well, out of curiosity.
  Another thing: I have never cared much for the AKG K7xx sound until now. I have owned 2 pairs of the K701's in the past and sold both of them cause I simply could not get the upper midrange brightness, and the lack of integration to tame, nomatter how many hours I put on them, or what amp I tried with them.
  I recently bought a new pair of AKG K702's from B&H Photo and have about 300 hours break-in on them.
  Wow, I really like the way these sound with both the Matrix M-stage and to a slightly lesser extent on the Asgard!
  I think they really sound extremely pleasing with these amps, and I can easily live with them now.
  The 702's sound fairly good on the Headroom, but can get a little too bright and edgy with it.
  I also like the earpads and the overall look better than the K701.
  It may be my imagination, but these honestly sound smoother and more integrated than I remember the 701's sounding!
  The K702's and the HD600's are now truly my favorite two headphones out of all the ones that I own.


----------



## purrin

Lanny, great comparison.  Your impressions comparing to the Headroom stuff is very similar to mine.  I had a HR Micro Portable and Balanced Home Rig from them not too long ago.  Edgy, forward, powerful.  The closed-in aspect of the HR amps disappears and edginess become more evident as you go up the line, but sound signature is the same.  The M-Stage is pretty smooth in comparison.  Control and impact were better on the HR Balanced, but that's running balanced.
   
  You can make the M-Stage sound smoother, faster, and have a blacker background if you are willing to perform some minor surgery. Try soldering small film bypass caps (as big as you can fit - I only had WIMA 0.1u/100V on hand) across the four 470uF electrolytic caps feeding power to the output transistors.  You don't need to (nor want to) do this on the caps feeding the op-amp because they are already bypassed with 22nf caps.  I'll post a photo once I get back from my business trip.
   
  With all this talk about op-amps, if you are sure your source has no DC offset, remove the caps and replace with wire. This makes a significant difference in terms of naturalness, clarity, and resolution.


----------



## RockinCannoisseur

good job dalton, i am also looking forward to the gs1 vs matrix.
  i should have  known the matrix was being modded, very interesting.
   
  kuze how can u tell which version u got?


----------



## K3cT

I really don't suggest bypassing with small films as it has the tendency to smear the treble.


----------



## daltonlanny

Thanks for the kind words, guys.
  Thanks purrin for all of your help and ideas with mods to the M-stage.
  Swapping op amps is truly a piece of cake with this amp, and its fun.
  I can't wait to compare the GS-1 and the modded Matrix M-stage either!


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





daltonlanny said:


> Hi Frank,
> 
> Thanks alot for the kind words. I appreciate it.
> My version is the 1st version. It does sound really great stock as well. My problem is that I am always wanting to experiment.
> ...


 

 Marantz makes great players and never heard the 8001 but did hear the 8003 and probably will listen to the 8004 but my DV6001 does so well it is sufficient. The GS1 I have not heard. It will be interesting to see how the Matrix will do when I get the LCD2 planar. Thanks for the update and it still reassuring that my opinion of the original is shared. Look forward to GS1 comparison.


----------



## Kuze

Quote:


rockincannoisseur said:


> kuze how can u tell which version u got?


 
*V1                                                                                                                                                                                      V2*



                


   
  Coolfungadget only sells V2 "second edition".


----------



## LokiS

Quote: 





dlaloum said:


> This type of problem can also happen with software driver issues - I recently updated drivers on a motherboard sound chip and suddenly had distortion and other problems - reverted to older drivers and the problem went away....
> 
> Was the soundcard previously working ok?
> Was there a software update?
> Driver issues can also be caused by some sort of software interference from something else that was installed... so check whether you installed or updated something else and that was when the problem started.


 
  Thank you for the replys, sorry about putting my issues here, I thought it would be the best place to ask about the amp.

 The issue is only present when the amp is in, without the amp I can adjust the volume controls perfectly fine and can reach max volume without distortion. Its only when the amp is in it becomes a issue.

 As for the sound card the old one had the modded drivers (since creatives are rubbish) and the new card Essence STX both tried official and modded with the same result. I'm pretty sure its the amp at the core of the issue.


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





k3ct said:


> I really don't suggest bypassing with small films as it has the tendency to smear the treble.


 

 Suggestions?
  I only have MKP4's and MKS2/MKS4's myself.
   
  Also, would bypassing the input caps be good?


----------



## dlaloum

Assuming that it is indeed the amp
   
  Likely cause of problem is overdriving - ie your Card output volume is set too high, resulting in a voltage higher than the amps maximum input.
   
  Once the amp is in the circuit, your computer card volume setting should be much much lower, and you should be using the amps volume knob to control loudness....
   
  Technically you should be set up so a 0db digital signal (ie maximum volume) should output at 2 Volts signal level
   
  If your sound card has a substantially higher maximum output (many do) then you need to adjust using the software volume slider to control that.
   
   
  If 40-50% causes distortion, try using 30-35% on your software volume, and then using the amps volume knob (and/or gain switches) to adjust from there.
   
  The trick is to make sure you don't clip/overdrive at any stage of the signal....


----------



## LokiS

Quote: 





dlaloum said:


>


 

 Thanks for the information, I currently have the amp at 80%-90% on the knob with a 18db setting and the volume to 50% on PC. So far it seems fine, I'll see how it goes after using it for a bit and report back if issues occur.


----------



## K3cT

Quote: 





mad max said:


> Suggestions?
> I only have MKP4's and MKS2/MKS4's myself.
> 
> Also, would bypassing the input caps be good?


 
   
  Best caps is no caps so if the original design doesn't have it then don't use it I suppose.
   
  And I guess we're talking about the row of cyan-colored 'lytics behind the MOSFETs? I don't know what brand they are but I have good results using Panasonic FM, Elna Silmic II or Nichicon KZ so you can replace that with those if the size permits. Silmic II tends to be big though so be aware.
   
  After hours and hours of trial and error with the analog output of my AMB γ2, my conclusion is that bypass is bad and should be skipped whenever possible. Just use a good quality cap and call it a day.


----------



## purrin

Quote: 





mad max said:


> Suggestions?
> I only have MKP4's and MKS2/MKS4's myself.
> 
> Also, would bypassing the input caps be good?


 
   
  The input caps are already bypassed with the small caps right next to the big 1uF caps. MKP4s are probably similar to the existing bypass caps. but you can always experiment though.  The cyan colored caps behind the transistors are not the input caps - they are the power supply caps.  The input caps are the big blue / red pair just south of the inputs (assuming inputs are at the top).


----------



## purrin

Quote: 





k3ct said:


> I really don't suggest bypassing with small films as it has the tendency to smear the treble.


 

 This has not been the case here. I've always had good results bypassing 'lytics with smaller film (even tiny ones) in power supplies. I hear you shouldn't do this with boutique parts though (bypass Blackgates). Although you got me wondering though.


----------



## K3cT

Quote: 





purrin said:


> This has not been the case here. I've always had good results bypassing 'lytics with smaller film (even tiny ones) in power supplies. I hear you shouldn't do this with boutique parts though (bypass Blackgates). Although you got me wondering though.


 

 Ah, power supplies might be a different case. My experience was mostly based on the analog section of things but I still wouldn't do it though.


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





purrin said:


> This has not been the case here. I've always had good results bypassing 'lytics with smaller film (even tiny ones) in power supplies. I hear you shouldn't do this with boutique parts though (bypass Blackgates). Although you got me wondering though.


 
   
  Prickley Peete says he likes to bypass BG's with BG's.
   
  Yes, I know the cyan caps are the power caps, lol.

  
  Quote: 





k3ct said:


> Best caps is no caps so if the original design doesn't have it then don't use it I suppose.
> 
> And I guess we're talking about the row of cyan-colored 'lytics behind the MOSFETs? I don't know what brand they are but I have good results using Panasonic FM, Elna Silmic II or Nichicon KZ so you can replace that with those if the size permits. Silmic II tends to be big though so be aware.
> 
> After hours and hours of trial and error with the analog output of my AMB γ2, my conclusion is that bypass is bad and should be skipped whenever possible. Just use a good quality cap and call it a day.


 

 Have you ever played with Rubycon MCZ or YXH?  How do they compare to the KZ's and FM's?  I can't figure out what brand and series those cyan caps are.  I don't remember if KZs come in 25V, I've only seen 50V and up.  I think I will go for FM's as far as the opamp power caps.


----------



## K3cT

Quote:  





> Have you ever played with Rubycon MCZ or YXH?  How do they compare to the KZ's and FM's?  I can't figure out what brand and series those cyan caps are.  I don't remember if KZs come in 25V, I've only seen 50V and up.  I think I will go for FM's as far as the opamp power caps.


 

 I've never encountered them here unfortunately. Well, Panny FM is a perfectly fine cap for power supply so go for it.


----------



## francisdemarte

Quote: 





purrin said:


> This has not been the case here. I've always had good results bypassing 'lytics with smaller film (even tiny ones) in power supplies. I hear you shouldn't do this with boutique parts though (bypass Blackgates). Although you got me wondering though.


 

 Can you post some pictures of this mod when you get a chance?


----------



## purrin

Yup - Will do when I get back home this Friday.


----------



## dlaloum

OPAMP Mods / Rolling
   
  So  I ordered an M-Stage from JTAM
   
  He also helpfully (at my request) added both a Class A Mod socket and a twin OPA627 socket to his pricelist....
   
  While waiting for these to arrive... I have a few questions...
   
  1) What opamps respond best to Class A modding?
  2) How much Class A? (ie what resistance) - and is heatsinking therefore required?
  3) are twin singles + Heatsink a better option for this sort of thing ? (does that allow biasing deeper into class A ?) - this assumes the singles are DIP8 on side by side adapter, not top bottom adapter.
  ie: split heat load into 2 seperate dips with larger hear dissipation surface area, and potentially provide larger surface area for heatsinking.
   
  I have also read some references in the forums to some opamps already being Class A biased ... is this right? or is this someone misinterpreting Class AB for Class A? (Pure Class A would probably run WAY hot!)


----------



## jrosenth

Quote: 





kuze said:


> V2 is said to sound tad better.


 

 Who said that?  
   
  I know they  extended the board, etc. and changed the transformer (cased, smaller) but never saw whether that transformer had different/better specs/output and must have missed (after reading 60 pages) where folks said they heard head to head that it actually sounded better as opposed to repeating supposition that lack of bare wire must shield it better.


----------



## purrin

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dlaloum* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> 1) What opamps respond best to Class A modding?
> 2) How much Class A? (ie what resistance) - and is heatsinking therefore required?
> ...


 

  OPA2107 and OPA627 respond very well to Class A. OPA2134 amd LM4562/LME49720 slightly less so, mainly because OPA2134, although pretty good, isn't all that great and can't be made great. The LM4562/LME49720 is already very good to start with. These are the only ones I have tried.
  Aim for between 2mA and 5mA - you can push to 7mA if you really crazy and curious.  Just 2mA (assuming the op-amp is feeding a suitable buffer/output circuit) gets you the sonic benefits (it's probably going to run class A 100% of the time). Adding more juice may change the sound balance, but you need to experiment yourself. Divide 15V by current (amps) to get resistor value. These op-amps will survive in hot environments up to 80C, but this is not ideal. With a 2.2k resistor (6.8mA), I did not need a heatsink, but that was with ambient temps at a cool 62F degrees at night. I've run 3.3k (4.5mA) in 95F ambient temps with no problem.  
  Top/bottom adapters may have more problems with heat. The SMT chips are smaller, and therefore have less surface area for heat dissipation. Also the bottom chip won't be able to breath.  I'd be conservative with top/bottom adapters and run 3.9K (less than 3.8mA) just to be safe, especially if you are running expensive chips. There are two advantages to running the top/bottom adapters compared to side-by-side DIP8 adapters: you are keeping the chips as close to the socket as possible; and you are limiting the number of socket contacts to only one set. If it means anything,* soldering the resistors directly to the op-amp and plugging the chip straight into the socket sounds better than plugging the op-amps over a class A adapter* and then into the socket. I can surmise better electrical contact (only one set vs two) and closer distance to the small PS decoupling caps (the small value 22nF probably takes into the account a good layout on the PCB). Some contact cleaner helps too.
   
  Finally, yes there are some chips that can easily (or more easily) be configured to run class A.


----------



## dlaloum

Thanks Purrin
   
  I have an M-Stage with 3k9 class A adapter and OPA627's on Brown dog on the way - I assume the OPA627's will be top/bottom 
  That will be the starting point of my listening (opa2134 stock, then OPA627 class A)
   
  Although I do own a Soldering iron it is not something I have used in the last 15+ years....
   
  But I might pop down to the local electronics supermarket and get some addition sockets so I can make up a few with different resistors.... (risk level is low there...)
   
  Depending on how I go we will see whether I feel brave enough to mod an adapter directly!
   
  I lashed out and ordered a grab bag of different opamps to try out - Would love to have a table of opamps and recomended Class A resistors for best results.... But I think that is a pipe dream!
   
  My grab bag will include (early next week when it all rocks up!)
   
  OPA627
  OPA637
  AD797
  AD744
  LT1028
  LME49860
  OPA2107
  OPA2111
  OPA228
  OPA49720
   
  So this little exercise is likely to take some time...
   
  Any experiences people have had with the above in the M-Stage and especially with the M-Stage and Class A mod very much appreciated
   
  But as the saying goes " Nothing succeeds like excess, and nothing exceeds like success"


----------



## dlaloum

Quote: 





buz said:


> So I just swapped an AD797BR into the M-Stage. The main difference that I notice is that gain seems to be lower now (subjectively need to turn up further to get the same volume out of it) - is that possible or is there something wrong?


 

 Hi Buz
   
  there was never any follow up to this post.... how did you go in the end with the AD797BR?
  (I have some on the way to me.... )
   
  thanks


----------



## daisangen

I just replaced LM4562NA with a LME49720NA and it's definitely bassier than the LM4562NA. I know they are supposed to be identical, but there's no way in hell this is placebo. I tried going back to LM4562NA and yep, my findings still stand. Other than the bass amount, I think they sound very similar.


----------



## purrin

Quote: 





dlaloum said:


> Thanks Purrin
> 
> I have an M-Stage with 3k9 class A adapter and OPA627's on Brown dog on the way - I assume the OPA627's will be top/bottom
> That will be the starting point of my listening (opa2134 stock, then OPA627 class A)
> ...


 

 You are welcome.  Beware OPA637 isn't unity gain stable and is prone to oscillate (do funny things).  Be sure to up the gain.  I liked OPA2111, but didn't explore it further once I got the LM4562.
   
  Quote:


daisangen said:


> I just replaced LM4562NA with a LME49720NA and it's definitely bassier than the LM4562NA. I know they are supposed to be identical, but there's no way in hell this is placebo. I tried going back to LM4562NA and yep, my findings still stand. Other than the bass amount, I think they sound very similar.


   
  There's conjecture that LM4562, LME49720, and LME49620 are all the same chip but binned like CPUs.  I have OPA2107s that sound very slightly different - same qualities but differing sound balance.  My LM4562 and LME49720 sound exactly the same.  It's a mystery to me.
   
  On another note, now that I've sent a few of the class A adapters out to folks who've ask for them - and this is something I wanted to point out - but just forgot...
   
*Pushing the op-amps into class A only works if you are feeding into a buffer with high input impedance.* In the case of the M-Stage, the op-amp voltage gain section is feeding a diamond buffer / output stage. Please don't do this in CMOYs, DACs, etc. unless you know what you are doing.


----------



## Frank I

Guys I am happy to reporrt the Matrix is stellar with the LCD2 and at o gain. It has tremendous basss slam and it presents all the details. It has worked on every headpone I have tried it with and performed well above the inexpensive cost factor.


----------



## purrin

Quote:


frank i said:


> Guys I am happy to reporrt the Matrix is stellar with the LCD2 and at o gain. It has tremendous basss slam and it presents all the details. It has worked on every headpone I have tried it with and performed well above the inexpensive cost factor.


 
 How's it compared to the Decware? Different beasts, but I'm curious. I like the M-Stage so much that I'm debating whether to start mods on my Melos or get something else.


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





purrin said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> frank i said:
> ...


 

 The Decware is a great amp. I was concerned it would not handle the Planar but it makes them shine. The SSpresentation has much more bass slam. I like both amps but I lreally enjoy what tubes amps can do and the soundstage and vocal presentation that tubes bring but the Matrix performs well above what it cost and probably the best bargain to be found. Keeping both. When I wanna rock and get slam the Matrix is the ticket.


----------



## dlaloum

Thanks purrin,
   
  when you talk about gain - I presume you are talking about the gain dip switches and not a circuit mod of some sort?
   
  My Headphones are 600 ohm OEM Beyers - so I am likely to need one of the higher gain settings regardless... (I believe..)
   
  Quote: 





purrin said:


> You are welcome.  Beware OPA637 isn't unity gain stable and is prone to oscillate (do funny things).  Be sure to up the gain.  I liked OPA2111, but didn't explore it further once I got the LM4562.


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





dlaloum said:


> Thanks purrin,
> 
> when you talk about gain - I presume you are talking about the gain dip switches and not a circuit mod of some sort?
> 
> My Headphones are 600 ohm OEM Beyers - so I am likely to need one of the higher gain settings regardless... (I believe..)


 
  I have found that the 10 gain setting works best with bothh my T1 and 770 600 ohm cans, They sound good at that setting and using 0 gain on the LCD2 so Matrix is great for low and high impedance cans and 10 gain on the D7000


----------



## dlaloum

Thanks Frank
   
  we were focused on the Non-Stock setup though - and the need for higher gain on some opamps to ensure stability..... 
   
  But thanks for the input!
   
  And given that you are a Beyer 600ohm user - have you experimented with opamps and class A? And what have you found works best with the Beyers?


----------



## ninjikiran

Anyone care to explain the reasoning behind wanting to apply some gain to an opamp?  I have seen it in this thread mentioned many times and don't exactly know why it is true. 
   
  I mean for the opamp itself and not the other uses of gain for headphones.


----------



## svfoo123

Does anyone have any experience with the matrix and the hd 650?


----------



## Balmoral

Quote: 





svfoo123 said:


> Does anyone have any experience with the matrix and the hd 650?


 

 I just got my HD650s a couple days ago.  They are still burning in as a matter of fact, but I've been doing quite a bit of listening.  It's a phenomenal combination.  I originally had it set to 10db, but thought 18 was better since there are times I like to "crank" it.  I don't know how the Senns sound with other equipment, but the matrix makes em scream!  The Senns are so seductive that I have a tendency to turn them up louder than I would my Grados...by a fair margin.


----------



## purrin

Quote: 





ninjikiran said:


> Anyone care to explain the reasoning behind wanting to apply some gain to an opamp?  I have seen it in this thread mentioned many times and don't exactly know why it is true.
> 
> I mean for the opamp itself and not the other uses of gain for headphones.


 

  Some opamps need some gain to be stable.  For example, the BB specsheet says OPA637 needs gain of 5.


----------



## purrin

Quote:


francisdemarte said:


> Can you post some pictures of this mod when you get a chance?


   

   
  The WIMA MKP2s .1uF / 100V fit underneath.  I believe the Lovely Cube cap pins are perpendicular to how the pins are on the Matrix - slightly different PCB layout.


----------



## dlaloum

Trying to figure out where the M-Stage / Black Cube Linear sit in the Headmap firmament
   

 Opamp based gain stage OPA2134 (3 level switchable gain)
 Walt Jung Diamond Class A discrete Buffer
 Robust / Clean Power supply
   
  Unless I am much mistaken that is a full semi-technical description of the amp 
   
  Looking out there at popular amps, this seems very very similar to some other popular amps... :
   
  Headroom Desktop Amp/DAC

 Opamp based gain stage OPA2134 Biased into class A using constant current source (3 level gain) - not clear whether this is CRD or full Cascode based - anyone know?
  Walt Jung Diamond Class A discrete buffer
 Regulated PSU (quality?) - optional higher grade PSU
   
   
  Could anyone chip in with other similar designs?
  Can we fill out this family tree, and see what type of sounds the family tends to produce, and what headphones synergise best..?
  This would also provide a type of guideline as to what mods would result in what sound...
   
  The Headroom desktop has the opamps running in class A (which can be done on the M-Stage with the mods) - but the Headroom goes one step further and uses a "proper" constant current source. (so I am told)
   
  Not sure on where the M-Stage, BCL, and 2x Headroom PSU's rank - concensus is that these can definitely improve the sound. 
   
  The Headroom should (in straight amp mode) therefore sound similar to a Class A modded M-Stage (OPA2134 based) - is this the case? Does the theory/model hold up?
  Anyone out there have both?
   
  This would also be interesting in terms of showing how much (if any) difference could be achieved by going from the basic Class A mod to a full blown constant current source mod....
   
  Has anyone tried the Class A mod using CRD's rather than resistors?


----------



## francisdemarte

Quote: 





purrin said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> francisdemarte said:
> ...


 

 Looks like the Lovely Cube has those caps in the same orientation:
   
\
   
  Another thing I want to do is move the gain DIP switches from the bottom to the back of my case. I think they are SPST and I'd like to tie the 4 switches into 2 SPST switches, since I can't think of any reason why you'd ever want different gain settings on each channel.


----------



## purrin

Quote:


dlaloum said:


> Trying to figure out where the M-Stage / Black Cube Linear sit in the Headmap firmament
> 
> 
> Opamp based gain stage OPA2134 (3 level switchable gain)
> ...


   
  M-Stage stage is also similar to PPA with 2 channels but with no constant current source on output, no class A biasing on opamp, and a few other things done differently - the power for each output transistor is fed by its own cap on M-Stage. Opamp gain stage + diamond output stage is ubiquitous. I had the HeadRoom Balanced with Home modules (OPA2134) and the HeadRoom sounded quite different (whether balanced or not balanced) than M-Stage. The HeadRoom sounded very very powerful, detailed, and crunchy, but too cool, edgy, and slightly clinical, which made it not play well with any my Grados - although it matched my D5000 and Darth Beyers very well. As some others have noted, the M-Stage is on the warm side (it's all relative anyways). The input caps and the big PS caps (4700uF and 470uF x 6 - two caps per component on each side of the rail) probably contribute to the warmness. I guess what I'm trying to say is that implementation of the topology rather than the topology itself is what will determine the sound. I jumped on the M-Stage because I figured I had some options if I wanted to tweak it; and if I broke it, I'd only be down $280.
   
  As far as PSUs, I the M-Stage on board PSU is better than the HeadRoom/Astrodyne switched PS, but the special HeadRoom dedicated PS is way better (and costs way more too - although it does got a lot of outputs.)
   
  Class A mod with CRDs is on my to-do list. But I'm pretty happy with my setup as it is.


----------



## dlaloum

I'm learning a lot quickly.... thank you!


----------



## kite7

Did anyone get blown away by the soundstage? It's huge, it's like making changing the space of my bedroom to an orchestra and this is all on a RS1. Unbelievable, never heard a RS1 capable of this. Now I don't miss my K701 too much anymore. I'm literally speechless as I am going through all my favorite songs.


----------



## dlaloum

I was just rereading the original review that started this...
   
  project86 - have you tried the ClassA mods on the M-Stage?
  And if so how did the modded M-Stage compare to your Luxman amp?
   
  The thought occurred to me that with the mods the difference might be reduced.....


----------



## RockinCannoisseur

i am using the matrix ms tage rca ouptuts to power my 75 watt klipsch
   
  it is not ideal but i t sounds much better than i would have thought. in fact they can get quite loud, on the negative they sound a bit thin, but ever since i set it up it is staying seriously. makes me miss my old tx 606 which was 100 times size
   
  so has anyone else tried this with surprising results?


----------



## kite7

How do you power speakers with RCA outputs? It can't power passive speakers as far as I know, it's a low level signal.
   
  I have the RCA output connected to my active speakers and it sounds fine.


----------



## RockinCannoisseur

Quote: 





kite7 said:


> How do you power speakers with RCA outputs? It can't power passive speakers as far as I know, it's a low level signal.
> 
> I have the RCA output connected to my active speakers and it sounds fine.


 
  just a quick cable mod
 do u mean u have powered speakers? what kind?
   
  im watching a movie right now with normal speakers  and it sounds pretty descent and can get pretty loud


----------



## kite7

Normal speakers? Do your speakers have power plugs at all? If not those are passive


----------



## RockinCannoisseur

Quote: 





kite7 said:


> Normal speakers? Do your speakers have power plugs at all? If not those are passive


 

 i know very little about powered speakers.  my normal passive klipsch are working much better than id hoped with the matrix
   
  so what are some good powered speakers?


----------



## dlaloum

Hmm a pre-amp output (or sound card output) is in fact an amplified output.
   
  And they are usually driven by basic opamps...
   
  Their output "power" is very limited - but then so is the output power of 3W Tube amps
   
  Output Voltage on a line output should be 2V peak (although some put out more than that sometimes as high as 4V)
   
  and V=IR so given an 8 Ohm impedance and 2V output I=V/R= 0.25 amps and Power=VI= 0.5W
   
  It doesn't seem unreasonable that a soundcard should be a capable 0.5W amp.... and if the speakers are efficient 0.5W can be quite loud
   
  Now with regards to the M-Stage - we have a complete discrete Class-A output stage.... it is in effect a pure Class A amp (at least in the buffer)
   
  According to the Lehman Black Cube specs (and the M-Stage design is very similar) it should be capable of 0.4W into 60ohm...
   
  Assuming it is not constrained by current - that should translate into roughly  3W into 8 ohm
   
  Well that is bang on the type of outputs used by Tube & Horn afficionados,,,,,
   
  Which Klipsch speakers are you using??
   
  With a Klipschorn capable of circa 114db/W SPL 3W will dive it PLENTY LOUD.... (Klipsch La Scala's are similarly efficient as are most pure horn designs - as soon as you start adding non horn components to the mix it gets much harder though!)
   
  My own Gallo Ref3.1's have an efficiency of 88db/W - so 3W would be a bit of a struggle - but should still be viable for quiet listening
   
  6Moons also ran a set of Ref 3.1's using a Nelson Pass First Watt amp (10W) .....and found it adequate for anything short of movies and massed orchestral.
   
  So given that most Klipsches are between 95db/w and 99db/w (for the basic models) - Yep 3W sounds perfectly possible


----------



## ninjikiran

With passive speakers the matrix was not the best investment you could of possibly had made.  You need an actual power amp, for ~the price of the matrix the tube magic A1 gives you both.  There might be more solutions but I wouldn't know since I own no speakers.
   
  As far as powered speakers go the Computer Audio forums talk about them all the time since they tend to work better with unamped computer sound cards.  Active speakers are probably more expensive, similar to powered speakers just with a different design(or so I assume).


----------



## RockinCannoisseur

Quote: 





ninjikiran said:


> With passive speakers the matrix was not the best investment you could of possibly had made.  You need an actual power amp, for ~the price of the matrix the tube magic A1 gives you both.  There might be more solutions but I wouldn't know since I own no speakers.
> 
> As far as powered speakers go the Computer Audio forums talk about them all the time since they tend to work better with unamped computer sound cards.  Active speakers are probably more expensive, similar to powered speakers just with a different design(or so I assume).


 
  hi, i didnt buy the matrix for speaker use, but rather for phone and iem(especially with the sweet gain options) and also for the 2 inputs that is a must for my setup.  thanks ill have to check out some computer forums

  
  Quote: 





dlaloum said:


> Hmm a pre-amp output (or sound card output) is in fact an amplified output.
> 
> And they are usually driven by basic opamps...
> 
> ...


 

 that is very interesting, i am using the r b51 bookshelf at 75 watt. also bear in mind that the matrix has +20 db gain making them sound even better. also sounded good at just +10 db.  im not sure what the minimum requirements are for these speakers, but i have read that klipsch is known for being easy to drive, that being said these are very  heavy compact  speakers,   i also have some polk tsi 200 100 watt speaker i am going to throw up against the matrix anytime now, should be very interesting,  those have more bass than my klipsch but they are much bigger cabinet and lack some mids.    actually  i was going to upgrade to the rb61 as they have a larger woofer, but after setting these rb51 up, id should just keep em,, the horn on these makes movies and effects sound very real life even when underpowered using matrix.  i wish i had set these up sooner. i cant believed i pawned my tx 606.


----------



## dlaloum

The critical spec with the speakers if you want to use the M-Stage as your speaker amp will be Sensitivity
   
  The Klipsch website lists the RB51 II as having sensitivity 92 db @2.83V / 1m - so assuming 8ohms you would be getting around 92db from circa 3.5W (at 1m/3ft from the speakers)- this is about the max that the setup will do... full blast (maximum gain setting volume maxed out)
   
  Mind you that is pretty loud!! (but definitely not night club loud)
   
  As far as Klipsch designs go this is one of their least efficient speakers.
   
  I have to have a play with that. My speakers are about the same sensitivity.....


----------



## Violet

OK. I also bought a Matrix M-Stage. I will listen to how it will be played with the Musical Fidelity CD-PRO A1 and differs sonically from amp's - Matrix mini-i and Musical Fidelity X-Can v.3


----------



## project86

Quote: 





dlaloum said:


> I was just rereading the original review that started this...
> 
> project86 - have you tried the ClassA mods on the M-Stage?
> And if so how did the modded M-Stage compare to your Luxman amp?
> ...


 


 No, I have not yet done so. I've got so many hours on it in stock for that I know it very well, and I use it a lot for comparisons. I don't want to change it because then I won't be as familiar with the sound. At some point when I stop buying and testing new gear, I'll probably try the mod, but I'm i no hurry.


----------



## dlaloum

Quote: 





project86 said:


> At some point when I stop buying and testing new gear,


 
   
  "when i get older losing my hair... many years from now....."
   
  I recognise that tune !


----------



## svfoo123

Has anyone used the Matrix m stage with the Audio gd 19 df and if so did they work well together?


----------



## Mad Max

Don't see why they shouldn't
   
   
  I'm liking how much cleaner and more focused the sound is with the Panasonic FM caps, w00t!


----------



## livewire

FWIW, I recently received my M-Stage V2 from HLLY.
  The transaction was flawless, free shipping - I received it six days after close of auction.
  Shipped through EMS, the delivery was what I consider to be warp speed coming from China.
  The packaging was excellent, not to mention a flawless product inside. Thumbs way up!


----------



## snakeeater69

I bought from the same dude too and the shipping was darn fast considering it was coming from China.


----------



## ninjikiran

Well Chinese shipping is always fast assuming they use EMS.  DHL can be a problem if its their cheaper shipping.
   
  Standard Air Mail is a joke.


----------



## Mad Max

I've shipped and received stuff internationally using DHL global express, and it was practically overnight shipping (to/from southeast asia and europe at least) where I used to live because of the local international airport.  Never had any problems with DHL either.
  Or are you talking about some cheaper delivery option that I somehow missed?


----------



## Danno

Hi Guys,
   
  Would this amp be able to power my DT770Pro (250ohm) headphones and bring out the bass it's famous for? Currently using a Headsave Classic amp connected to my PC but I feel it's lacking power to drive it.
   
  Also got a pair of MS-1's and Radius TWF11R - would I notice much improvement on these?
   
  Cheers!


----------



## Mad Max

Totally.


----------



## Waqar

Hello this is my first post here but i have read alot on this forum and this forum has been of great help but my wallet go a little thinner
   
  Soo i have a problem i buyed a M-Stage amp few months ago, but i have a problem with the amp as the sound is panned slightly too the right when i listen too the amp thru several headphones, the other amp headphone amp i have works perfect in the setup i have soo i have narrowed the problem down too the Matrix amp.
   
  Soo the question is has anyone had this problem with this amp?
   
  And by the way does anyone have the contact information too coolfungaget(Jtam) i have sent him a mail but not recived any answer from him, since he is soo fast too reply i may have the wrong contact information.


----------



## ninjikiran

Contact him by his ebay ID(just look for the Matrix M-Stage), but I personally have not noticed any problems.  Only thing I can say is make sure everything is properly pushed in(especially the headphone cable)
   
  Check the dip switches on the bottom as well, make sure both match.  You can control the gain for each channel separately so if you have 10 gain on your right ear and 0 on your left its going to sound different.


----------



## Waqar

YES, it was the dip switches was not balanced( set right) by accident, thanks for the fast reply now the amp is working like a charm again.
   
  Have a nice day.


----------



## ninjikiran

NP, enjoy 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  Quote: 





waqar said:


> YES, it was the dip switches was not balanced( set right) by accident, thanks for the fast reply now the amp is working like a charm again.
> 
> Have a nice day.


----------



## Waqar

The amp sounds great with HD 800 with the stock opa amp, but does anybody have a favorite opa next too the stock one. 
   
  I have tried too read about it in this thread but couldnt find much on Hd800 and other op amps.


----------



## Mad Max

AD797, TL051, HA3-2525
  These will all do well, especially 2525.
  797 will be too dry, I think, but some people love it anyway.


----------



## BournePerfect

How long does this take to arrive. I paid on cfg's site last Monday, and still have not received it. It seems most people got there's in 6 days. Yes I'm impatient. A tracking # would have eased my mind at least. Lame.


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





bourneperfect said:


> How long does this take to arrive. I paid on cfg's site last Monday, and still have not received it. It seems most people got there's in 6 days. Yes I'm impatient. A tracking # would have eased my mind at least. Lame.


 

 send jeffrey an email requesting the tracking number and he will send it to you


----------



## BournePerfect

Will do, but shouldn't it have gotten here yet?


----------



## Frank I

i emailed about it before he sent it. ask and you will receive


----------



## francisdemarte

You should have gotten it by now.
   
  I ordered an Aune amp from him and I got it in 3 days. It maybe stuck in customs or at your post office, the only way you will know is if you track the package.


----------



## BournePerfect

Thanks guys, I'll shoot him an email and see what's up.


----------



## dlaloum

It is moon festival season in china - so deliveries may be slowed down...
   
  It took about 10 days to get to me...


----------



## pekingduck

The Autumn Moon Festival is over but the 7-day national holiday is coming SOON.. (Oct 1-7)
  
  Quote: 





dlaloum said:


> It is moon festival season in china - so deliveries may be slowed down...
> 
> It took about 10 days to get to me...


----------



## BournePerfect

Thanks guys.


----------



## Sganzerla

5 minutes ago I made the class A biasing, with 4562NA and I think I'm hearing a much more robust powerful dynamic sound (deep bass), with a deeper soundstage and something that makes the sound more natural/real. Thanks Purrin for the tip, very well worth.


----------



## Frank I

If I wanted to swap opamps and plug and play to get more thicker vocal presentation and still maintain the sound stage and bass which is the best option and where do I buy it. Purrin had posted a resource awhile ago but I did not save it. Thanks


----------



## K3cT

OPA627 probably.


----------



## project86

Quote: 





frank i said:


> If I wanted to swap opamps and plug and play to get more thicker vocal presentation and still maintain the sound stage and bass which is the best option and where do I buy it. Purrin had posted a resource awhile ago but I did not save it. Thanks


 

  
  Not sure if it was mentioned, but Coolfungadget is now selling an OPA627 on an adaptor for cheap:
   
https://coolfungadget.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=80
   
  Also the Class A mod:
   
https://coolfungadget.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=77
   
  I think it is very honorable for him to mention that it is an easy DIY project and to provide links to the guides, while also selling it at a modest price for those who prefer to go that route.


----------



## cravenz

Quote: 





project86 said:


> Not sure if it was mentioned, but Coolfungadget is now selling an OPA627 on an adaptor for cheap:
> 
> https://coolfungadget.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=80
> 
> ...


 

 Ah yes! it is about time I try one of those. I'm being naughty here, but what's the recommended for squeaking more bass out of the 702s again? lol.


----------



## dlaloum

And JTAM's Class A mod works very well... I bought it with my M-Stage
   
  It is worth noting that Lovelycube is also providing the Class A mod, and in his case he provides two different Class A options, with the higher bias current one being the same as JTAM's.
   
  I've been trying it out with a bunch of different opamps...
   
  One thing I have noticed while doing RMAA tests - DIP8 opamps on a dual to single adapter suffer more from interference and have higher crosstalk.....
   
  Mind you it may be that I have poor quality adapters - so I have some different ones on the way...
   
  The single to dual surface mount adapters don't seem to suffer from the same problem!
   
  Another observations.... twin DIP8's on adapter (OPA637 & OPA228) seem to get hotter in Class A than twin SIP's (OPA627, AD797) - maybe the soldered connection has better thermal conductivity? - The sockets seem to help with absorbing and radiating the heat - the pins are acting as heatsinks I think! (The twin DIP8 setups get seriously hot in class A, which is a concern!)
   
  There are definite differences between opamps.... too little listening time yet to comment further on that.
   
  But running RMAA has identified that I am also suffering from Noise/Hash that is entering the system somewhere... (even though everything is connected via a Belkin PureAV PF60 power filter) - and I think that hash is partly obscuring differences - so I now have some ferrites on the way, as well as some ESR paper....
   
  And contrary to popular comments, I am finding that the Revox 3100 (600ohm 1980's Beyer DT880's) do not require heaps of gain.... I have the M-Stage set to 10db but I find myself using only the first quarter of the volume dial... so I think I may move to a lower gain setting.
   
  Just goes to show that high impedance doesn't necessarily mean low efficiency (or maybe I just like listening at lower volumes.... also true).
   
  I have also been reading up on how much bias would be required to keep the Opamps in Class A.... hard to tell as I don't know the impedance of the diamond buffer - but I have the impression (after reading the tangentsoft articles and associated links) that 3.85mA - the mod as provided by JTAM (3.9k resistors) might be substantially over the top, and would only be required for the highest gain settings.... it may in fact be possible to get all the benefits with almost all headphones with a lower biasing. (ie as long as the Voltage out of the Opamp doesn't exceed the class A biased spec then you are still running pure class A, and at the lower gain settings 3.85mA might be extreme) - the tangentsoft article mentions a high end of 5mA and a minimu of 0.5mA.
  Comments from the electronic whizzes out there?


----------



## francisdemarte

Quote: 





project86 said:


> Not sure if it was mentioned, but Coolfungadget is now selling an OPA627 on an adaptor for cheap:
> 
> https://coolfungadget.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=80
> 
> ...


 

 That's the cheapest I've ever seen an OPA627 from a reputable vendor.
   
  JTam are these brand new OPA627 or used ones reclaimed from old equipment?
   
   
  Edit: What the heck, I just ordered 2 of them!


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





project86 said:


> Not sure if it was mentioned, but Coolfungadget is now selling an OPA627 on an adaptor for cheap:
> 
> https://coolfungadget.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=80
> 
> ...


 
  so that 627 would just pop into the socket with no soldering or modding.


----------



## francisdemarte

Yes, that should pop right in. Just make sure you have it facing the right way. You should line up the notch on the socket with the markings on the adapter.


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





francisdemarte said:


> Yes, that should pop right in. Just make sure you have it facing the right way. You should line up the notch on the socket with the markings on the adapter.


 


  thanks are ther anty more I should try that pop in and anbody know who supplies these opamps for purchase beside the one that Jeffrey has plug and play is what I am about


----------



## francisdemarte

The vendor that sells the "Lovely Cube" version of the Lehmann has pictures and step by step instructions on how to make an Class-A bias adapter. It is near the bottom of the page here:
   
http://www.alicemagicbox.com/lasercollection/lovelycube.html


----------



## dlaloum

Quote: 





frank i said:


> anbody know who supplies these opamps for purchase beside the one that Jeffrey has plug and play is what I am about


 


  I went shopping on e-bay... from:
http://myworld.ebay.com/icbay/
http://myworld.ebay.com/audjade_chn/
  http://myworld.ebay.com/direct123/
http://myworld.ebay.com/audiosector/
   
  Between them you can pick up pretty much anything you might want...


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





dlaloum said:


> I went shopping on e-bay... from:
> http://myworld.ebay.com/icbay/
> http://myworld.ebay.com/audjade_chn/
> http://myworld.ebay.com/direct123/
> ...


 

 thanks for the links I will order the 4562 and get the 627 from Jeffrey. Thanks and appreciiate the help


----------



## svfoo123

In order to do the upgrade to the Matrix m stage. Do I purchase both the  Burr Brown OPA627AU on Browndog Adaptor and the Class A Biasing MOD for Matrix "m-stage"?
   
  Is it just plug and play?
   Thank you


----------



## ninjikiran

Yep should be, the price on that OPA627AU on Burr Brown is rather cheap compared to what I saw elsewhere.  Either that or I saw something else.


----------



## AlfBaxter

The whoelsale price for 627AU is something like $18-20 each, so yes $10 for two is very cheap! I emailed JTam about this and he sent me pictures of the opamps, and of the results of testing resistance across the various pins with a multimeter to determine authenticity. They seem authentic, and the resistances check out, but I still don't know how he can sell them so cheap. I ordered some, haven't arrived yet, but I will compare them with my other 627AU ordered from Cimarron Tech ($48 for a pair on a browndog) when they do, and let you know if there's a difference.


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





alfbaxter said:


> The whoelsale price for 627AU is something like $18-20 each, so yes $10 for two is very cheap! I emailed JTam about this and he sent me pictures of the opamps, and of the results of testing resistance across the various pins with a multimeter to determine authenticity. They seem authentic, and the resistances check out, but I still don't know how he can sell them so cheap. I ordered some, haven't arrived yet, but I will compare them with my other 627AU ordered from Cimarron Tech ($48 for a pair on a browndog) when they do, and let you know if there's a difference.


 


  you need one or two for the Matrix


----------



## francisdemarte

OPA627 is a single channel opamp so you will need 2 of them on an adapter. Coolfungadget is selling them by the pair already mounted on an adapter so all you will need is 1 from him.


----------



## Sinofdreams999

For those who have ordered from coolfunandgadget. How long did it took to receive your item?


----------



## googleborg

i ordered an Aune from him and it took 14 days to the UK


----------



## Kekus

Two weeks for me as well (Europe).


----------



## BournePerfect

Well it's been 12 days so far for me, and it still hasn't showed!


----------



## Sinofdreams999

It's been around 12 days as well and the tracking number doesn't seem to be valid.


----------



## gsilver

Quote: 





sinofdreams999 said:


> For those who have ordered from coolfunandgadget. How long did it took to receive your item?


 

 When I got mine, there was a bit of a shipping delay due to the transition from the V1 to the V2 unit, but he was upfront about it, and once it shipped, it arrived rather quickly.


----------



## timz

Quote: 





gsilver said:


> When I got mine, there was a bit of a shipping delay due to the transition from the V1 to the V2 unit, but he was upfront about it, and once it shipped, it arrived rather quickly.


 


  yep about 7 days to arrive at aus


----------



## lescanard

Sorry to continue the redundant questions - but I just bought from Tam Audio the "Class A Mod for M-Stage" plus the Burr Brown OPA627AU on Brown Dog Adapter...
   
  It appears I open, remove the stock Op Amp, plug in the Class A Mod and then plug onto that the OPA627...is that correct? No soldering or anything needed in this case? Thanks Head-fi-ers!


----------



## ninjikiran

Quote: 





lescanard said:


> Sorry to continue the redundant questions - but I just bought from Tam Audio the "Class A Mod for M-Stage" plus the Burr Brown OPA627AU on Brown Dog Adapter...
> 
> It appears I open, remove the stock Op Amp, plug in the Class A Mod and then plug onto that the OPA627...is that correct? No soldering or anything needed in this case? Thanks Head-fi-ers!


 

 Its just plug and play, use needle nose pliers to remove the opamp already in there.  It'll make life easier on ya.   Besides that make sure to insert it the right way~ I don't know how it works when putting in 2x SOIC on a browndog if the same rules apply.  I am sure the adapter itself has the marking.


----------



## dlaloum

I find it easy with a small flathead screwdriver, lever up one side, then the other, ( a little bit at a time) - then pull it up evenly.
   
  Make sure you don't twist/bend the pins in the process (this is assuming it is the DIP opamp itself)
   
  Alternatively - get a socket for each opamp - they are a doddle to plug in and out, cost very little, and you are unlikely to bend/break the pins


----------



## Violet

Please be informed that the Matrix M-Stage famously works with Sennheiser HD598 headphones. The sound is close, strong and very uniform. Basses are more than wonderful!


----------



## myscoobysti

I'm curious... what are the chances of the parts like caps, resistors or even the APLS pot being fake? I'm not saying that the Matrix M-Stage uses fake parts or everything that's made in China is fake. I'm just wondering how can one tell if the parts are the real deal.


----------



## TRiN

Quote: 





project86 said:


> Not sure if it was mentioned, but Coolfungadget is now selling an OPA627 on an adaptor for cheap:
> 
> https://coolfungadget.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=80
> 
> ...


 


  Looks like he has combined the two!
   
  https://coolfungadget.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=82


----------



## dlaloum

The combined mod is probably better for sound (fewer connections, shorter paths, less interference etc.)
   
  BUT...
   
  I am currently running with OPA637's plugged into the Class A Mod socket - and you can't do it with the complete combined adapter!
   
  Not to mention the LME49860 and LTE1028's waiting to have their chance...


----------



## daisangen

While I'm waiting for my Audio-gd Earth and Moon, any tips how to keep them in place? The V2 has nice space for discretes near the toroid but I guess just throwing it there is a bit sloppy.


----------



## snakeeater69

Been wanting to do this mod for a long time. Now with the $15 combo, it is a no brainer to try it out. Just purchased it.


----------



## vincponc2610

Hi Purrin,
   
  Did you try the  class A bias using a CRD ?


----------



## lessblue

Quote: 





trin said:


> Looks like he has combined the two!
> 
> https://coolfungadget.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=82


 
   
   
  What resistor value should one choose? I'm waiting for my Matrix M-Stage to arrive.


----------



## ninjikiran

I think only person who paired an OPA627AU in this thread did so with 3.3k Resistors. 
  Quote: 





lessblue said:


> What resistor value should one choose? I'm waiting for my Matrix M-Stage to arrive.


----------



## thinkpol

If I can help it, I'd rather not have a portable amp and a desktop amp. I'd rather have 1 do the job for both.
   
  I'm looking at getting a Matrix M-Stage for my AH-D7000. I'm also looking at a Meier Audio Stepdance for portable use.
  Is it reasonable to compare the two? Would the M-Stage sound better? The Stepdance would obviously have the added bonus of being portable. I'd say my listening is 30% portable 70% home. If I were to go with the M-Stage I'd just go from iPhones -> IEM unamped. I don't really want 2 amps.


----------



## purrin

Quote:


vincponc2610 said:


> Hi Purrin,
> 
> Did you try the  class A bias using a CRD ?


   
  No - not yet.  Been pretty busy at work.  I'll place an order this week for the CRDs.


----------



## dlaloum

Quote: 





lessblue said:


> What resistor value should one choose? I'm waiting for my Matrix M-Stage to arrive.


 

 JTAM ships them as 3.9k (3.85mA) fitted - he did some testing and was concerned about the heat at 3.3k(4.55mA) - the tangentsoft article on class A biasing also estimates the maximum at around 5mA - so this sounds about right.
   
  Purrin tested with different resistors - search the thread.....Higher resistance=lower bias=cooler sound, Lower resistance=higher bias=warmer sound(and more heat in the opamp)
   
  Some of the opamps in my 3.9k setup are getting very hot ... so I would agree with JTAM's choice and not drop the resistance any lower.


----------



## clams

Quote: 





daisangen said:


> While I'm waiting for my Audio-gd Earth and Moon, any tips how to keep them in place? The V2 has nice space for discretes near the toroid but I guess just throwing it there is a bit sloppy.


 

 I have the V1 and I threw my Audio-gd Moon pretty much next to the toroidal. I just wrapped it in electrical tape to protect it. I grounded it to one of the screws on the case. It was pretty tricky. Overall I enjoyed the sound but I felt that the Moon made my highs a tad bit harsh for everything but classical. Then again I was using my K702s. And the Moon was a bit to "slow" for my taste. I lost the fast dynamics that I had with the stock opamp. Let me know how your two modules go.


----------



## Frank I

Does anyone know why Jeffrey Tam was banned here under coolfungadget.


----------



## snakeeater69

Only one account for a person.


----------



## cravenz

Quote: 





frank i said:


> Does anyone know why Jeffrey Tam was banned here under coolfungadget.


 

 He was banned I believe for posting about the products and not having a MOT under his name. He now functions under the nick "JTam" or something like that.


----------



## Frank I

kinda figured it was the MOT thing.


----------



## Frank I

LM4562 anyone happy with using this over the stock opamp and what differences in presentation were noticed. I may want to start rolling and see what I can do to get his Matrix up a notch without solderings. Suggestions appreciated/


----------



## zoso947

Has anyone ordered one of these recently?  I ordered one through the main site(not eBay) last week and so far have heard nothing about when or if it will ship.  Emails have gone unanswered.  My PayPal account was charged but I didn't get any kind of receipt or confirmation.


----------



## Mad Max

I've never liked the plasticky tone of National Semiconductor's opamps.  I'd suggest you order HA3-2525-5 samples from Intersil.  You could also go for TLE2081ACP or AD797BNZ/AD797ANZ.  You are limited in choices without soldering, but these are excellent.  The "discrete" opamps in general are slower and can sound wrong at times.
   
  Or you can get one of the former and not compromise


----------



## dlaloum

I thought the LME49720 & LME49860 (close relatives of the LME4562.... according to some the later designations of the same design?) sounded better than the stock OPA2134...
   
  But I have not yet done enough listening to really pin things down - still listening to OPA637
   
  A number of people have posted liking these.... majkel posted somewhere (other threads) as being pretty keen on these as well/


----------



## dlaloum

Quote: 





mad max said:


> I've never liked the plasticky tone of National Semiconductor's opamps.  I'd suggest you order HA3-2525-5 samples from Intersil.  You could also go for TLE2081ACP or AD797BNZ/AD797ANZ.  You are limited in choices without soldering, but these are excellent.  The "discrete" opamps in general are slower and can sound wrong at times.
> 
> Or you can get one of the former and not compromise


 


  I picked up a pair of AD797BRZ on an adapter on e-bay - they do sound good (again too early to make other comments) - but I have noted a higher noise floor with these when I RMAA's them 
   
  Havn't got any HA3-2525-5 so no comment on those!


----------



## AlfBaxter

frank i said:


> LM4562 anyone happy with using this over the stock opamp and what differences in presentation were noticed. I may want to start rolling and see what I can do to get his Matrix up a notch without solderings. Suggestions appreciated/









 Much brighter than stock, and much less bassy. Initially seems a lot better and certainly more detailed but literally hurt my ears after extended listening. Tried switching stock for LM4562 several times and always ended up going back to stock. Currently using OPA627 and very impressed so far. Similar tonal qualities to stock but a lot more refined treble and less bloated bass. Will be checking out class A bias mod as soon as my adapter arrives.


----------



## BournePerfect

Quote: 





zoso947 said:


> Has anyone ordered one of these recently?  I ordered one through the main site(not eBay) last week and so far have heard nothing about when or if it will ship.  Emails have gone unanswered.  My PayPal account was charged but I didn't get any kind of receipt or confirmation.


 

 Well I ordered one 15 days ago and still have not got it yet! I'm getting pissed and am regretting my purchase honestly because I have no patience. Jeremy's tracking number shows that it shipped from China on the 24th, and expected to arrive with the USPS on the 28th. Well the USPS tracking (which admittedly ALWAYS sucks) says that they have STILL not received it!!! And I don't care about the Chinese holiday blah blah everyone is using for an excuse...it's been 15 DAYS! I am obviously extremely dissatisfied at this point, when most people are telling me they got their's in 5-7 days, and mine supposedly hasn't hit US shores after more than 2 weeks?! All in all so far, I would NOT do business with him again (whether it's his fault or not) I think it would have been quicker going a different route. Oh, and you MUST EMAIL Jeremy to even GET a tracking number from him...I consider that fairly unprofessional from my viewpoint.
   
  *waits for all the happy customers to come to his defense*
   
  /end rant (for now lol)
   
  -Daniel


----------



## gsilver

Has anyone compared the AD797 and the OPA627 with this amp? I see them both available on adapters for about the same price.
   
  The OPA627 from Coolfungadget also has a class-A mod to it.


----------



## snakeeater69

Quote: 





bourneperfect said:


> Well I ordered one 15 days ago and still have not got it yet! I'm getting pissed and am regretting my purchase honestly because I have no patience. Jeremy's tracking number shows that it shipped from China on the 24th, and expected to arrive with the USPS on the 28th. Well the USPS tracking (which admittedly ALWAYS sucks) says that they have STILL not received it!!! And I don't care about the Chinese holiday blah blah everyone is using for an excuse...it's been 15 DAYS! I am obviously extremely dissatisfied at this point, when most people are telling me they got their's in 5-7 days, and mine supposedly hasn't hit US shores after more than 2 weeks?! All in all so far, I would NOT do business with him again (whether it's his fault or not) I think it would have been quicker going a different route. Oh, and you MUST EMAIL Jeremy to even GET a tracking number from him...I consider that fairly unprofessional from my viewpoint.
> 
> *waits for all the happy customers to come to his defense*
> 
> ...


 

 I bought my M-Stage from the HLL Audio dude off ebay and it shipped pretty fast but I just purchased the adapter from Tam recent'y so I am hoping the transaction goes smoothly.


----------



## francisdemarte

That sucks! I can understand your frustration. Why is it being sent USPS? That's the slowest route ever 2-3 week on average.  
  When I ordered from Coolfungadget he shipped my order via EMS and it arrived quick.


----------



## livewire

*@BP*- Sorry to hear of the long delay. Betcha you wont be ordering from China again anytime soon!
   
  Ordered mine from HLLY, it was here in six days.
  They used EMS, although when it hit this shore,
  the package was passed off to USPS for final delivery to my doorstep.


----------



## ninjikiran

Quote: 





francisdemarte said:


> That sucks! I can understand your frustration. Why is it being sent USPS? That's the slowest route ever 2-3 week on average.
> When I ordered from Coolfungadget he shipped my order via EMS and it arrived quick.


 


  Same EMS was super fast, but EMS hands it off to USPS in the United States.  Overall speed was super fast all things considered and I got a tracking number right after it shipped.  Just a little bad luck on that guys part, but I also can't fault him for being frustrated.  I know I would be as well.  I got it from CoolFuNGadget on ebay, and would do business again.  Communication was spot on with me.
   
  Patience has its limits 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
   
  @LM4562, I don't notice the plastic sound some talk about.  Overall sounds fine to me biased or not.  Though all in all if I could hear a difference at all Biasing the chip seemed to make the largest difference in overall enjoyment.


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





alfbaxter said:


> Much brighter than stock, and much less bassy. Initially seems a lot better and certainly more detailed but literally hurt my ears after extended listening. Tried switching stock for LM4562 several times and always ended up going back to stock. Currently using OPA627 and very impressed so far. Similar tonal qualities to stock but a lot more refined treble and less bloated bass. Will be checking out class A bias mod as soon as my adapter arrives.


 
   
  LM4562/LME49720 has "rolled-up" treble, making it fatiguing in some circuits.  A friend of mine really likes LME49880, might be up your alley if you don't mind the National Semiconductor tone.

  
  Quote: 





dlaloum said:


> I picked up a pair of AD797BRZ on an adapter on e-bay - they do sound good (again too early to make other comments) - but I have noted a higher noise floor with these when I RMAA's them
> 
> Havn't got any HA3-2525-5 so no comment on those!


 
   
  lol, that's why I'm mentioning them.  You should give them a try, you'll love them.  That 797 module could be faulty if not counterfeit.  I bought my pair of 797B from Digikey, though.  Soldering required in that case.
   
  avnet and Arrow Electronics carry Intersil opamps.  I haven't bought from them before, but I will soon - I want to try the metal can version of HA3-2525-5, among others.
  2525 is relatively colorless except for some bassiness, but it is quality bass unlike Earth and OPA2134, and more like ADA4627-1 and THS4081.  It is smoother and clearer in this amp than the other four I just mentioned and has deep bass and sky-reaching treble like 4627, more detail than the others except THS4081 and is never fatiguing or sounds unnatural like LM4562/LME49720 does to me.  No dryness like Earth and 797.  It is difficult to fault in general - heck, I can't.  Soundstage is very big and precise, but not as precise as Earth and 4627 if I'm not mistaken.  I haven't compared 4627's and 2525's soundstages thoroughly, it's usually the last thing I pay attention to if I don't forget about it, lol.


  
  Quote: 





gsilver said:


> Has anyone compared the AD797 and the OPA627 with this amp? I see them both available on adapters for about the same price.
> 
> The OPA627 from Coolfungadget also has a class-A mod to it.


 
   
  There are comparisons throughout the forums and elsewhere on these two.  797 sounds about how it has been described plus it is kind of dry and often soulless, OPA627 will probably also sound as people have described it.


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





mad max said:


> LM4562/LME49720 has "rolled-up" treble, making it fatiguing in some circuits.  A friend of mine really likes LME49880, might be up your alley if you don't mind the National Semiconductor tone.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


  Does the 2525 require soldering. I really not into doing any mods except plug and play. I want to see if I can get some less noise in the amp at higher volume. Basically stock sounds good but it is a light presentation but if I could get an opamp to add weight to the sound and have all the detail and bass while lowering noise is what I am looking to accomplish. I like the stock sound stage and bass and detail missing weight to the presentation.


----------



## francisdemarte

Quote: 





frank i said:


> Does the 2525 require soldering. I really not into doing any mods except plug and play. I want to see if I can get some less noise in the amp at higher volume. Basically stock sounds good but it is a light presentation but if I could get an opamp to add weight to the sound and have all the detail and bass while lowering noise is what I am looking to accomplish. I like the stock sound stage and bass and detail missing weight to the presentation.


 
   
  Search on digi-key.com or mouser.com for the op amp names, in the results look in the *Package / Case *column for 8-DIP or DIP8. These will fit into the M-Stage without soldering. You can also Google the name of the op amp and check the datasheet to see if they come in 8 pin DIP or 8 Pin PDIP packaging.
   
   
  It should look like this:


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





francisdemarte said:


> Search on digi-key.com or mouser.com for the op amp names, in the results look in the *Package / Case *column for 8-DIP or DIP8. These will fit into the M-Stage without soldering. You can also Google the name of the op amp and check the datasheet to see if they come in 8 pin DIP or 8 Pin PDIP packaging.
> 
> 
> It should look like this:


 

 thanks will do so and appreciate the help.


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





francisdemarte said:


> Search on digi-key.com or mouser.com for the op amp names, in the results look in the *Package / Case *column for 8-DIP or DIP8. These will fit into the M-Stage without soldering. You can also Google the name of the op amp and check the datasheet to see if they come in 8 pin DIP or 8 Pin PDIP packaging.
> 
> 
> It should look like this:


 

 HA3-2525-5 looks like that: DIP8 opamp.  Digikey hardly carries any Intersil opamps, so you may not find it there.  The opamp goes right in the opamp socket, but you need two of them with an adapter because they are mono opamps.
   
  HA3-2525-5
  TLE2081ACP
  AD797ANZ or AD797BNZ
   
  These specific part numbers are all for DIP8 versions of these opamps like in the picture above, so no soldering necessary, that's why I recommended them.


----------



## Frank I

thanks I will check it out


----------



## lessblue

Question about Class A Biasing, will it do damage to the opamp in time?
   
  Finally, if pairing the HD650s with the M-Stage, is OPA627 biased a good choice? Would it balance out what most would say are laid back highs on the HD650s?


----------



## zoso947

Quote: 





lessblue said:


> Question about Class A Biasing, will it do damage to the opamp in time?
> 
> Finally, if pairing the HD650s with the M-Stage, is OPA627 biased a good choice? Would it balance out what most would say are laid back highs on the HD650s?


 

 Picking one component to balance out a shortcoming on another is not the way to go.  If the 650's don't have enough treble to thrill you, adding something upstream isn't going to change that.


----------



## lessblue

Quote: 





zoso947 said:


> Picking one component to balance out a shortcoming on another is not the way to go.  If the 650's don't have enough treble to thrill you, adding something upstream isn't going to change that.


 
   
  Umm, that's one opinion I guess, I've heard others. Certain amps pair better with certain headphones. Certain Opamps are suited to certain amp/headphones as well from what I've gathered. Some will emphasize the highs, others create a warmer signature. So anybody else have thoughts on an Opamp for the Matrix and HD650?


----------



## JoetheArachnid

Quote: 





zoso947 said:


> Picking one component to balance out a shortcoming on another is not the way to go.  If the 650's don't have enough treble to thrill you, adding something upstream isn't going to change that.


 
   
  So you could blow a load of money on new cans... or you could change opamps... or you could tweak the EQ a bit. Each are completely viable. There's nothing wrong with adjusting your source to provide better sound, as long as you're not going overboard and adding +20dB in the >5kHz range or something. No, EQ is not entirely natural but it doesn't sound bad either. So neither should rolling opamps - it's a good way of making small hardware adjustments to a sound sig without having to spend a lot of cash. As for this particular example I can't say, but as long as you're only looking for small changes you can probably get results with the right choices.


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





lessblue said:


> Umm, that's one opinion I guess, I've heard others. Certain amps pair better with certain headphones. Certain Opamps are suited to certain amp/headphones as well from what I've gathered. Some will emphasize the highs, others create a warmer signature. So anybody else have thoughts on an Opamp for the Matrix and HD650?


 

 OPA827 has slightly emphasized treble, might give you the difference you want, though I would suggest a different headphone altogether.  Soldering will be required with OPA827.  The slight bass and treble emphasis OPA827 bears makes the mids slightly laid-back, I don't know if that might veil HD650.
   
  If using a computer as source, I recommend using the Sonnox Oxford EQ and/or Softube Trident A-Range EQ.  These are excellent and won't distort the sound so easily plus you can EQ down those annoying middle ear resonances.  If you boost frequencies too much, you'll start to get distortion of course but you can just reduce the output qith the output knob in the plugin to avoid distortion.  Great examples of how good equalizers can be.


----------



## rhythmdevils

I couldn't find this anywhere in this thread:  Would someone mind confirming if the volume knob controls the preamp, or is it fixed volume? 
   
  If so, it would seem a great choice for me since I have powered Mackie monitors.  I bet it would sound better than going straight from my Beresford!  But then I'll have 2 morally compromised gears...


----------



## project86

Quote: 





rhythmdevils said:


> I couldn't find this anywhere in this thread:  Would someone mind confirming if the volume knob controls the preamp, or is it fixed volume?
> 
> If so, it would seem a great choice for me since I have powered Mackie monitors.  I bet it would sound better than going straight from my Beresford!  But then I'll have 2 morally compromised gears...


 

 Yep, volume knob controls volume on the outputs, so it works as a pre-amp. It does a very fine job in my opinion.


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





project86 said:


> Yep, volume knob controls volume on the outputs, so it works as a pre-amp. _It does a very fine job in my opinion._


 

 x2


----------



## Violet

Question. Do you turn off the power of Matrix M-Stage during non-use? It is terribly hot. I am afraid that something inside it will not spoil.


----------



## ninjikiran

When I go to bed at night or decide to take a long break or go outside I turn it off.  I rather save on the power costs 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, besides that I don't think this level of heat will damage the unit.  These things have quite the allowances.
   
  If you worry about heat, you can just take off the casing since the bulk of the heat is from it not having any vents.


----------



## Mad Max

Absolutely!
   
  Make sure to keep the amplifier in a well ventilated space, preferably with some air flow.  It only takes a little to drastically lower the amp's temperature when in use.  You may want to raise the amp about an extra half inch off of the surface it is sitting on for better air flow under the chassis.
   
  My M-Stage only gets mildly warm, no more.  I turn it off when I take breaks.


----------



## snakeeater69

My bad.


----------



## zoso947

Quote: 





snakeeater69 said:


> Anyone else also having issues with J Tam?


 

 I finally just got an email that my amp shipped(on schedule) a few days ago, the lack of contact was due to the Chinese National Holiday...which is all well and good but at least Little Dot notified people in advance and pulled their eBay listings for the week.  I just wish there had been better communication.


----------



## BournePerfect

Wells it's been almost 3 weeks, and still no amp, and he has not emailed me back at ALL this week! SOOOO...I filed a dispute with PayPal today to get my refund rolling or whatever needs to happen. That's too bad, I'm probably the first black mark on his record in this thread, but such is life. His lack of communication is unprofessional, and I'm surprised he hasn't posted anything in this thread regarding this either, to save some face. Holidays mean nothing to me for three weeks of this nonsense. Will update this if anything changes.
   
  -Daniel


----------



## Frank I

It appears Jeffrey is slipping. Please report your findings and let the community know if wont be the first vendor to go bad. I suggest anyone ordering the Matrix hold off or seek another vendor


----------



## navii

I purchased a LDII from ebay on the 23rd and I still have not received it, nor can I see any EMS tracking info.
   
  David from LD said thats cos of the holidays and everything is closed. To quote him "One thing to note is that the entire country is on holiday for National Day 10.1 to 10.8 so all businesses included couriers and customs offices are closed."
   
  Seems bizzar, but what can I do.


----------



## Sparky14

LD David is a good guy, so I wouldn't be concerned. The extended Chinese national holidays are a well known delay.....and the 1 week holiday always seem to result in 3 week delays of products.


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





sparky14 said:


> LD David is a good guy, so I wouldn't be concerned. The extended Chinese national holidays are a well known delay.....and the 1 week holiday always seem to result in 3 week delays of products.


 


  David has nothing to do with this thread and I do agree about David but 3 weeks from Tam is way too long and if he is not returning the emails I would watch it.


----------



## project86

I just got an email reply from Jeffrey Tam a few hours ago. It was in response to a question I asked him several days ago about my Matrix Cube DAC. It was a technical question and he had to look into it, so I consider that to be a very reasonable time frame. Maybe that is a sign that he is back from holiday and everyone should be getting replies shortly.
   
  I do feel bad for those who have not heard back yet. Perhaps his sales have increased and are overwhelming him a bit right now. I know he does have a seperate full time job unrelated to his audio stuff; combined with the holiday I can see how it would be hard to keep up. Good luck to everyone on getting things worked out, I still have confidence in him at this point.


----------



## BournePerfect

Well it seems the PayPal dispute I filed yesterday got the ball rolling, cause I got an email reply finally! He claims my package is in US customs still and should receive it in about 10 days. That will put the total ship time at FOUR WEEKS. He did say he'd refund me for $25 for the long ship time. I appreciate the gesture, but I would have paid and extra $25 myself to expedite it had I known it would take this long. I also feel like the only reason he was willing to do this (and respond to me) is because of the PayPal dispute I filed less than 24 hours ago, which isn't cool in my book. Anyway I am glad that I will (hopefully) get my amp soon, and will be sure to update this thread with my impressions, which will include my layman's comparisons to the Schiit Asgard, being fed by the uDac into my K702s and possibly DT880/600s.
   
  -Daniel
   
  ps: Hopefully this is my last ranting post about this lol. I agree
        with the other poster above me though: look for another
        vendor to purchase from! My two cents.


----------



## dlaloum

I'll put in my vote of confidence for Coolfungadget / JTAM - I was/am happy with the service, and my parcel was delivered promptly.... 
   
  I give him my recomendation based on my experience....
   
  sorry your experience was not as good.


----------



## navii

Post# #1029 look for the panda.
    
  Quote:


frank i said:


> David has nothing to do with this thread and I do agree about David but 3 weeks from Tam is way too long and if he is not returning the emails I would watch it.


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





navii said:


> Post# #1029 look for the panda.


 


  Duk David does not sell the Matrix. This is about Jeffrey Tam


----------



## castlevania32

hi im going to buy a m-stage but is the new design as good as the one reviewed on the first page ?
  also where should i get mine from him http://cgi.ebay.com/Matrix-m-stage-Headphone-Amplifier-Amp-/350369229247 or him http://cgi.ebay.fr/Matrix-M-stage-Headphone-Amplifier-Amp-LATEST-VERSION-S-/330454610560 ?


----------



## snakeeater69

Can't wait to mod my M-Stage.


----------



## dlaloum

Quote: 





castlevania32 said:


> hi im going to buy a m-stage but is the new design as good as the one reviewed on the first page ?
> also where should i get mine from him http://cgi.ebay.com/Matrix-m-stage-Headphone-Amplifier-Amp-/350369229247 or him http://cgi.ebay.fr/Matrix-M-stage-Headphone-Amplifier-Amp-LATEST-VERSION-S-/330454610560 ?


 

 1) I have the V2 seems good to me.... there was a comparison way back in this thread - you will have to read a lot of posts - but the outcome was that it was a wash.... much of a muchness
  2) The M-Stage is available on various e-bay listings (as you found) or directly from coolfungadget.com or a couple of other vendors in china (use google!)
   
  Jeffrey Tam (coolfungadget) will match the price if you find one cheaper than his. (Hlly had it at a lower price - he matched it immediately and changed the price on his website) - when I asked him about class A mod, he built it and added it to his site as a standard item....
   
  From my perspective his service has been excellent


----------



## kalda01

I sent Coolfungadget a message on Ebay 3 days ago asking about the M-stage and received no response.
  Also it sort of bothers me that he has a "Banned" status in this forum. any idea why that is ?


----------



## kite7

Quote: 





kalda01 said:


> I sent Coolfungadget a message on Ebay 3 days ago asking about the M-stage and received no response.
> Also it sort of bothers me that he has a "Banned" status in this forum. any idea why that is ?


 


 From what I know, he opened a new account under jtam I believe months ago and was given a member of trade recognition associated with coolfungadget. On head-fi, you're not allowed to have more than one account so I'm assuming the other one under coolfungadget was banned because of that. It has nothing to do with him being a bad seller. I'm not sure why he's not responding to you, try sending another message?
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/user/jtam is his user name
   
  I wouldn't blame the seller if it was stuck in customs, that's just beyond control and is expected from international purchases. I know what it feels like anticipating a package arriving after weeks, and sometimes patience wears off and frustration kicks in. I'm still having my fingers crossed on a package to arrive, that's all you can really do sometimes. Bourne, don't you have a tracking number? If he gave you one you should be able to see if it is in customs on the EMS site or USPS.


----------



## 0o0o0o

I sent coolfungadget an email earlier today concerning a m-stage via https://coolfungadget.com/store/index.php?route=information/contact and recieved a very prompt reply within the hour. I also mentioned some of the issues other customers have been having with him and he answered that it has been a holiday issue. Can't blame the guy for taking some time off though I understand the people whos questions and orders have gone unanswered/stalled at customs or some other point in shipping. Though of course there are plenty of ways to easily contact people these days.
   
  Personally I'll be purchasing a M-stage with the opa627au and class a biasing as soon as this paypal payment request comes through.
   
  Ps. Speak of the devil it came through while i was posting this


----------



## sunneebear

Seems like every year there is a situation like this somewhere on head-fi and some other forums.  People must try to understand the scope of a whole nation shutting down for a week.  That also includes no communication from sellers.  This also causes a huge backlog in imports and exports after the holiday.  Just think how annoying it is to come back from vacation to find a ton of emails from buyers saying I know you're one vacation but at least answer my email.


----------



## darknight670

Can someone confirm tams opa627 are authentic?


----------



## purrin

Quote: 





lessblue said:


> Question about Class A Biasing, will it do damage to the opamp in time?
> 
> Finally, if pairing the HD650s with the M-Stage, is OPA627 biased a good choice? Would it balance out what most would say are laid back highs on the HD650s?


 


  It depends upon your source. OPA627 which is already laid back with laid back 'phones like HD650 may sound kinda bleh. Class A biasing may help a little. I would go OPA2107 with HD650 because the the OPA2107 has a high-mid treble quality that cuts through haze and the bass is contained.  Seems like a good match for HD650s weaknesses.
   
  On the other hand, OPA2107 would be the last thing I would want to pair with Grados (unless I was driving a very warm and rolled-off buffer or output section). 
   
  YMMV.


----------



## sluker

Hi,
  Has anyone bought from Hlly? I sent them an order (and payment cleared through paypal) but have not received a responce for three days now. Is this normal?


----------



## AlfBaxter

Quote: 





purrin said:


> It depends upon your source. OPA627 which is already laid back with laid back 'phones like HD650 may sound kinda bleh. Class A biasing may help a little. I would go OPA2107 with HD650 because the the OPA2107 has a high-mid treble quality that cuts through haze and the bass is contained.  Seems like a good match for HD650s weaknesses.
> 
> On the other hand, OPA2107 would be the last thing I would want to pair with Grados (unless I was driving a very warm and rolled-off buffer or output section).
> 
> YMMV.


 

  
  I think it also depends what version HD650 you have. I have the newer version with the silver baffle and have never really found them veiled or lacking in treble. In fact, using LM4562 in my M-Stage, the HD650 were way too bright, to the point of hurting my ears.
   
  My source is an Auzen Prelude with OPA637AU, and I have an M-Stage with OPA627AU. Before I added the class-a mod to the M-Stage, the HD650 were sounding very good, but vocals could sound recessed and bass was occasionally overpowering. A nice sound overall but a bit too warm and laidback. Not as warm and bassy as the stock OPA2134, but still too much. Also, I could hear some 'grain' in the treble, especially in string sections of orchestral music.
   
  Since I went for the class-a mod, the sound has really transformed - the difference between OPA627AU vs. OPA627AU class-a is (to my ears) larger than the difference between OPA627AU vs. OPA2134. The OPA627AU sound much more open in class-a, bass is tighter and more controlled, and strings sound very smooth indeed. Vocals have come forward a lot, and the top end is very crisp and detailed, without ever being harsh. The warm fuzz that used to colour the midrange has gone, and soundstage is larger with better instrument separation. So thanks to purrin for experimenting with class-a biasing. With a decent source, M-Stage with OPA627 biased into class-a can really make the HD650 sing.
   
  @darknight: I asked JTam if he could confirm authenticity, and he sent me pictures of him testing the resistance across the pins with a multimeter. The measurements all check out. I have OPA627 I know to be authentic (from Cimarron) and the ones from JTam I bought as spares do look a little different. There's no notch, just a dot, to indicate pin 1, but the printing is consistent with the diagrams you can find on TI's website. So basically they are either genuine or pretty authentic copies. I haven't tested them yet for sound quality, too busy, but will give them a go at some point.


----------



## livewire

Quote: 





sluker said:


> Hi,
> Has anyone bought from Hlly? I sent them an order (and payment cleared through paypal) but have not received a responce for three days now. Is this normal?


 
_Dont expect a response_.
  I bought a M-Stage from them, paid it via paypal
  and it arrived on my doorstep six days later.
  I guess if your asked for a response, you might get one.
  (as in requesting tracking numbers)
  Remember, the chinese dont all speak english, or at least not very well.
  They arent going to go out of their way to start a dialogue with a foreign customer.
  BTW, it is possible that the delivery of your amp may be somewhat delayed due the backlog of commerce in China after their recent week long holiday.
  Good luck, I'm sure it will arrive soon and that you will enjoy it immensely.
  (at least I did!)


----------



## ninjikiran

What is an optimal resistance with OPA627 biasing?


----------



## project86

In case anyone is interested, I finally finished my review of the Matrix Cube DAC.
   
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/516993/review-matrix-cube-dac#post_6984969
   
  It pairs very well with the M-Stage, despite not being designed to match cosmetically.


----------



## lessblue

I've just ordered the Class A Biasing MOD and OPA627AU on Browndog Adaptor from Tam's Audio. I already have OPA2107 so looking forward to trying both the OPA627AU and the OPA2107 on the Class A Biasing MOD.


----------



## dw1narso

to the people that has done class A opamp biasing... do you found that M-stage transformer become warmer/hotter after the opamp biasing? in normal condition, is the transformer runs cool?
  ? thanks


----------



## purrin

Quote: 





dw1narso said:


> to the people that has done class A opamp biasing... do you found that M-stage transformer become warmer/hotter after the opamp biasing? in normal condition, is the transformer runs cool?
> ? thanks


 
  Not going to make a difference for transformer.  The opamp may get hotter - thats about it.  We are talking about single digit millivolts here.  The voltage regulators and especially the output transistors may get hot - but this is normal operation. Remember there's no air circulation in the box either.


----------



## dw1narso

noted, thanks Purrin...


----------



## jtam

@Headfi moderators

 I understand the purpose of this thread is not to make apologies, explain the delay of my deliveries or even promote my services. I completely understand the rules of being an MOT but I do want to stop people discussing about my service instead of the product itself. So please allow me to make a quick statement and take all the followups offline.

 @All unhappy customers

 I am not gone and i am still responsible for all my customer, no matter if you have bought, planned to buy or canceled your orders.
 All the recent unhappy experiences some of you have had, are mostly caused by the 3 reasons below:

 1. In China we use bath Gregorian and lunar calendars. This year's Mid-autumn festival holiday (Sep 22-24) is followed by National Day holiday(Oct 1-7). The carriers and me worked on a very strange schedule. We all had a big backlog and I admit I am not so productive during holidays.
 2. I tried a new shipping service who claims to be able to ship faster and safer to the US. They ship packages in bulk first using their own air transports to their warehouse in the US, then dispatch within the US. In the beginning they use DHL which works well. But they switched to USPS later to save cost. They also encountered some Custom issues which caused me a lot trouble as you saw.
 3. Hand making the class A biasing adapters is so time consuming. I received too many orders during the holidays. I had too little time to even reply all customer emails.

 Resolutions:

 1. Holiday is over and Everything is back to business. I am clearing backlogs in orders and enquiry emails. If you haven't got a reply from me. Email or PM me again. I got an iPad so that I can work emails anytime anywhere!
 2. Bad things have happened. Luckily only less than 10 packages were impacted. As mentioned above, I'd willing to offer some discount if they are eventually delivered. I will also be responsible if they are lost or damaged during shipping. Please trust me and give me some time to make it right.
 3. I am planning for large amount production of the class A mod. Hopefully it won't cost me so much time and you can get it for lower price.

 @All other headfiers

 Headfi and this thread are not really the appropriate places to discuss your good or bad experience when dealing business with me. I sincerely request for a full stop of the off topic discussions. Please contact me offline for any questions or concerns. I will do everything I can to resolve.


----------



## snakeeater69

Just received my A-biasing mod from JTam. It was really nice of you to make this mod available for those of us with no soldering skill. I can totally see those little buggers being a pain to solder.   Wow, I'm even more impress with the Matrix M-Stage now than before.


----------



## ev01ut10ndt

I ordered from Jeffrey Tam yesterday, even before he posted his reply. I got a really quick response from him over ebay and that contradicted what others have been saying. Well, I got the m-stage after seeing the great reviews and decided against the matrix dac. I was just sick of powering my HD650s with a portable amp I had around, which kept wasting 9v. I didn't want to buy $10 rechargeable ones with $30 chargers, so I bought the M-stage instead at 6 times that amount. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Oh my wallet.... 
   
  I tried looking for the reviews comparing the version 2 and the first version of the amp and I can't find any. Most of the postings I saw in this thread was that there isn't much difference in sound quality. Anyone have the direct links to the post comparing them?
   
  And I got worried when after ordering, people were saying that the HD650s didn't pair well with the mstage, but did very well with the 701s and hd800s. Anyone else felt this way in their comparison?


----------



## daisangen

HD650 sounds fine to me, never tried the stock OPA2134 with them, though.
  
  Quote: 





ev01ut10ndt said:


> I ordered from Jeffrey Tam yesterday, even before he posted his reply. I got a really quick response from him over ebay and that contradicted what others have been saying. Well, I got the m-stage after seeing the great reviews and decided against the matrix dac. I was just sick of powering my HD650s with a portable amp I had around, which kept wasting 9v. I didn't want to buy $10 rechargeable ones with $30 chargers, so I bought the M-stage instead at 6 times that amount.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## AlfBaxter

Quote: 





ev01ut10ndt said:


> I ordered from Jeffrey Tam yesterday, even before he posted his reply. I got a really quick response from him over ebay and that contradicted what others have been saying. Well, I got the m-stage after seeing the great reviews and decided against the matrix dac. I was just sick of powering my HD650s with a portable amp I had around, which kept wasting 9v. I didn't want to buy $10 rechargeable ones with $30 chargers, so I bought the M-stage instead at 6 times that amount.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


  I commented on this a page or two back. The M-stage with OPA627AU pairs extremely well with HD650, especially if used with the class-a biasing mod. the pairing is a lot less good (but still by no means bad) if used with the stock OPA2134. Check out my post if interested in my impressions.


----------



## myscoobysti

This amp must be selling like hot cakes on ebay. It is so competitive that some sellers are giving one HLLY TAMP-20 free with every purchase!! Talk about good bargain. I wonder if that will pressure some other sellers to lower their price or give a better deal?


----------



## lessblue

Quote: 





alfbaxter said:


> I commented on this a page or two back. The M-stage with OPA627AU pairs extremely well with HD650, especially if used with the class-a biasing mod. the pairing is a lot less good (but still by no means bad) if used with the stock OPA2134. Check out my post if interested in my impressions.


 


 I'm looking forwward to receiving my class-a bias MOD and OPA627 on Browndog. Will try my OPA2107 with Class-A bias too!
   
  Makes sense to just buy the class a MOD adaptor separetly from the OPA627 right? This way I can try the OPA2107 biased as well and later on the OPA627 can be used in another amp if required..


----------



## purrin

Quote: 





lessblue said:


> I'm looking forwward to receiving my class-a bias MOD and OPA627 on Browndog. Will try my OPA2107 with Class-A bias too!
> 
> Makes sense to just buy the class a MOD adaptor separetly from the OPA627 right? This way I can try the OPA2107 biased as well and later on the OPA627 can be used in another amp if required..


 


  Yup - that way you can try different opamps. Both BB opamps respond very very well to the resister biasing technique! Some other opamps not so much. I do think that directly soldering the resistors on the chips results in better sound though.


----------



## zoso947

Received my amp today, will hopefully get to enjoy it now...


----------



## ninjikiran

Might sound a bit silly since you probably did this but have you checked inside of the unit?  I think when you order them with upgrades they pre-install it.
  Quote: 





zoso947 said:


> Well I received my amp today and surprise surprise, the opamp/class a upgrade I ordered and was charged for are nowhere in sight.  I'm about ready to dump this thing back on eBay and give up on the Chinese basement market.


----------



## zoso947

Quote: 





ninjikiran said:


> Might sound a bit silly since you probably did this but have you checked inside of the unit?


 


  Of course, as I asked for him to install it.  The unit also appears to be scratched a bit.
   
  Update: Found the opamp stuck to a piece of tape inside the box.  Will commence installing now...


----------



## gsilver

As for the HD650 and the M-Stage, I hooked the HD650 up again today and upped the gain setting to +18db. It's an all-around improvement over the +10db setting that I had it on earlier.


----------



## dlaloum

Quote: 





ninjikiran said:


> What is an optimal resistance with OPA627 biasing?


 

 Jeffrey Tam provide 3.9k (3.85mA) oh his adapters - we discussed this and he had tried 3.3k but was finding it too hot (keep in mind this is a sealed/closed case, and the opamps are on a top/bottom adapter - so limited airflow)
   
  Purrin also did some tests aurally and ended up at a similar value based on sound... (as I recall from postings many weeks back)
   
  I've been using the adapter with a range of opamps, and some definitely get hotter than others - in terms of heat / reliability balanced with sound quality the 3.9k seems a good choice


----------



## lessblue

Quote: 





gsilver said:


> As for the HD650 and the M-Stage, I hooked the HD650 up again today and upped the gain setting to +18db. It's an all-around improvement over the +10db setting that I had it on earlier.


 

 Just to be clear, 18db means down on 1 and up on 2 right for each input?


----------



## BournePerfect

23 days...and counting. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  And to the poster earlier: I do have a USPS tracking number but it says NOTHING about being held in customs, neither does the EMS tracking page.
   
  -Daniel


----------



## gsilver

Quote: 





lessblue said:


> Just to be clear, 18db means down on 1 and up on 2 right for each input?


 

 Earlier in the thread, someone posted:
  both down: +0db
  1 up, 2 down: +10db
  1 down, 2 up: +18db
  1 up, 2 up: +20db


----------



## ninjikiran

Quote: 





bourneperfect said:


> 23 days...and counting.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


  USPS usually doesn't say anything until its either on the ground in the US or some time during the flight.  I find EMS to only be accurate till it gets to its final destination in china.  On that accord I generally find EMS more reliable than DHL.


----------



## skeptic

Quote: 





jtam said:


> Headfi and this thread are not really the appropriate places to discuss your good or bad experience when dealing business with me. I sincerely request for a full stop of the off topic discussions. Please contact me offline for any questions or concerns. I will do everything I can to resolve.


 

 I have to respectfully disagree with this proposition.  Customer service issues are not, by any means, off topic.  As a potential purchaser, sonics may be my chief interest, but it is also vital to me to read about the experiences other head-fiers have had in purchasing their M-Stage amps (particularly if those experiences have been negative).  Serious delays and uncomfortable uncertainties about if and when a product will be delivered demand attention.  This community protects itself by candidly discussing such issues, and in my view, it is inappropriate to try and silence that discussion.


----------



## BournePerfect

Quote: 





skeptic said:


> I have to respectfully disagree with this proposition.  Customer service issues are not, by any means, off topic.  As a potential purchaser, sonics may be my chief interest, but it is also vital to me to read about the experiences other head-fiers have had in purchasing their M-Stage amps (particularly if those experiences have been negative).  Serious delays and uncomfortable uncertainties about if and when a product will be delivered demand attention.  This community protects itself by candidly discussing such issues, and in my view, it is inappropriate to try and silence that discussion.


 
  Exactly. I don't remember anyone trying to stymie the GOOD feedback that has prevailed so far in this thread lol.  It's in poor taste to try and silence both types of feedback, unless of course someone is getting carried away with it. Besides, the positive feedback in this thread has gotten plenty of people to purchase the M-Stage, and that's a good thing (I think-I'll know when I get mine).


----------



## aspenx

I've been following this thread (without posting) for a while now. I thought he would have at least give some sort of notice to his (potential) customers that a major week-long holiday was around the corner in mainland China and that it will have plenty of complications. But I guess he did not and there wasn't even a word of apology in his post...
   
  I didn't have a very good experience waiting for a DAC that I bought from him either. I didn't voice it out because I thought it was an exception (since everyone else was raving about him), but seeing how he responded to the whole "backlog" wasn't what I was expecting. He knew the holidays were coming right? A simple notice beforehand and I'm sure everyone here would be understanding...
   
  Anyways, I'm looking forward to see more mods of the amp on this thread. I don't own a M-Stage but this design sure produces some good output.


----------



## Danno

Inside the packaging box or inside the M-Stage unit itself?
  
  Quote: 





zoso947 said:


> Of course, as I asked for him to install it.  The unit also appears to be scratched a bit.
> 
> Update: Found the opamp stuck to a piece of tape inside the box.  Will commence installing now...


----------



## stephentaylor

Any idea how the Matrix M-Stage would be for Audio Technica ATH W1000x?
   
  Looking to buy my first headphone amp and this looks a possibility?
   
  Thanks


----------



## niranhopper

I have the M-stage 2nd version and i use them with my K702. I am planning to mod the M-stage and wondering which mod will suit the K702. Can you guys suggest.


----------



## zoso947

Quote: 





danno said:


> Inside the packaging box or inside the M-Stage unit itself?


 


  The package.  No big deal, it took all of 2 minutes to install. 
   
  Anyway, the amp sounds terrific so far but it runs so hot that I worry how long it will last.  Even the volume knob is very warm to the touch.


----------



## daisangen

What's lacking? What would you like to improve?
   
  Start experimenting with different plug-and-play opamps.
  
  Quote: 





niranhopper said:


> I have the M-stage 2nd version and i use them with my K702. I am planning to mod the M-stage and wondering which mod will suit the K702. Can you guys suggest.


----------



## AlfBaxter

Quote: 





zoso947 said:


> The package.  No big deal, it took all of 2 minutes to install.
> 
> Anyway, the amp sounds terrific so far but it runs so hot that I worry how long it will last.  Even the volume knob is very warm to the touch.


 


  That sounds not quite right. I have the V2 with the same class-a mod, and I never feel any warmth in the volume control. The only bits that get hot are the fets - the heatsinks on those are way too hot to touch. But the top of the case itself only ever gets fairly warm, and it never manages to heat the volume control.


----------



## zoso947

Nothing on the outside of the unit gets too hot to touch, but judging from the heat transfer through some fairly thick metal I really have to wonder what's going on inside temp wise. My headphone connector is even warmed up.


----------



## dlaloum

Welcome to class A !


----------



## niranhopper

My main cribbing is that vocals are a bit distant and i end up increasing the volume. Hence looking for a suitable mod to bring the vocals a bit forward.
  Quote: 





daisangen said:


> What's lacking? What would you like to improve?
> 
> Start experimenting with different plug-and-play opamps.


----------



## ninjikiran

Quote: 





niranhopper said:


> I have the M-stage 2nd version and i use them with my K702. I am planning to mod the M-stage and wondering which mod will suit the K702. Can you guys suggest.


 


  Don't know if its placebo or not but things seem to sound noticeably better with a biased opamp.  The Biased LM4562(mines is a lm49720) @ 3.3k is what I have in mine right now. 
   
  This was without any real preconceptions as to how it would sound but I can't actually test it since I only own a single M-Stage.  It takes too much time to reliable swap opamps.
   
  You could also start playing with equalizers to boost the vocal range.


----------



## Danno

Same, at first I was worried reading about the heat issues so I kept a careful eye on the amp, left it on overnight to burn it in when I felt confident enough and the next day it was still at best just warm to the touch.
  
  Quote: 





alfbaxter said:


> That sounds not quite right. I have the V2 with the same class-a mod, and I never feel any warmth in the volume control. The only bits that get hot are the fets - the heatsinks on those are way too hot to touch. But the top of the case itself only ever gets fairly warm, and it never manages to heat the volume control.


----------



## gsilver

On mine, the entire unit gets warm, including the volume control knob. It's also warmer towards the front of the unit compared to the back. It doesn't get _hot, _though, at least through the casing.


----------



## Yuceka

I also recently purchased a Matrix M-Stage from coolfungadget. After the payment, I've never heard anything back from him regarding the shipping. So when I read some of the complaints here, I went ahead and emailed him. He responded to my email the next day and told me that the item had already been shipped and he's been very gracious and helpful in the whole process. The day after that email, he also provided the tracking number and I am hoping to get the amp by the end of this week. I am sorry some of you guys' experience has been different but I just wanted to say that he's answered all of my question and was very quick to ship... I'll add more info if something goes wrong along the way... 
   
  Cheers
   
  Edit: I made the purchase on the seventh, and this is how it's looking now
   
   

 [size=medium]
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




[/size] [size=medium]Inbound Into Customs[/size] [size=medium]
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




[/size] [size=medium]Inbound International Arrival, October 13, 2010, 1:26 pm, ISC SAN FRANCISCO (USPS)[/size] [size=medium]
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




[/size] [size=medium]Foreign International Dispatch, October 12, 2010, 2:12 am, SHANGHAI EMS, CHINA PEOPLES REP[/size] [size=medium]
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




[/size] [size=medium]Foreign Acceptance, October 11, 2010, 7:04 pm[/size] [size=medium]
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




[/size] [size=medium]Origin Post is Preparing Shipment[/size]


----------



## Mad Max

The case on mine doesn't get too hot (29°C), but the transistors with heatsinks reach about 50°C anyway and the buffer's caps reach about 53°C and the Nichicon KG caps go up to 47°C.  Leaving the amp uncovered didn't make a difference in those components' temperatures.
  Should a better job of cooling that area be done?  Perhaps a kind of heatsink to transfer more of that heat to the case?
   
  Another guy posted that he drilled holes in the case of the amp.  I think that might make a difference if you don't/can't keep the amp in a well ventilated spot.


----------



## BournePerfect

UPDATE:
   
       Jtam just refunded all my money plus $50 :O ....! He talked to customs and they are having some issues to the point that Jeffrey can't believe them either. At one point they said 2 more days, then they said 10. He rufunded me the extra $50 for my trouble (I didn't suggest it even!) and wrote a very nice apologetic email to me explaining things in a very nice, professional manner. I just wanted to set things straight on here, and compliment him for going over the top to make things right! Thank you, Jeffrey! Crazy thing is, the Browndog adapter I ordered just last week from him arrived today lol! In the meantime, I placed a new order from hllyaudio for the same silver v.2 Matrix tonight. What are your guy's experience with their shipping so far, i.e. how long from your payment did it take to receive it (US order preferably)?
   
       Thanks again Jeffrey (Jtam, coolfungadget etc)!
   
  -Daniel


----------



## Sinofdreams999

Quote: 





gsilver said:


> On mine, the entire unit gets warm, including the volume control knob. It's also warmer towards the front of the unit compared to the back. It doesn't get _hot, _though, at least through the casing.


 


  I don't feel any kind of heat from my knob and whole unit just becomes little warm. Definitely something is wrong with yours.


----------



## googleborg

what a top bloke! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  Quote: 





bourneperfect said:


> UPDATE:
> 
> Jtam just refunded all my money plus $50 :O ....! He talked to customs and they are having some issues to the point that Jeffrey can't believe them either. At one point they said 2 more days, then they said 10. He rufunded me the extra $50 for my trouble (I didn't suggest it even!) and wrote a very nice apologetic email to me explaining things in a very nice, professional manner. I just wanted to set things straight on here, and compliment him for going over the top to make things right! Thank you, Jeffrey! Crazy thing is, the Browndog adapter I ordered just last week from him arrived today lol! In the meantime, I placed a new order from hllyaudio for the same silver v.2 Matrix tonight. What are your guy's experience with their shipping so far, i.e. how long from your payment did it take to receive it (US order preferably)?
> 
> ...


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





bourneperfect said:


> UPDATE:
> 
> Jtam just refunded all my money plus $50 :O ....! He talked to customs and they are having some issues to the point that Jeffrey can't believe them either. At one point they said 2 more days, then they said 10. He rufunded me the extra $50 for my trouble (I didn't suggest it even!) and wrote a very nice apologetic email to me explaining things in a very nice, professional manner. I just wanted to set things straight on here, and compliment him for going over the top to make things right! Thank you, Jeffrey! Crazy thing is, the Browndog adapter I ordered just last week from him arrived today lol! In the meantime, I placed a new order from hllyaudio for the same silver v.2 Matrix tonight. What are your guy's experience with their shipping so far, i.e. how long from your payment did it take to receive it (US order preferably)?
> 
> ...


 
  the guy does all that for you and you order from someone else. IMO that was very wrong


----------



## BournePerfect

He actually suggested repeatedly in his email to me to order from someone else, because he couldn't believe what the customs guys were telling him. He was the one who emailed me wanting me to cancel because of that situation. I didn't ask him for the $50 or even HINT at anything of that nature. And to me, time=$. I'd have paid an extra fifty just to get the damn thing a month ago! And who's to say the next order from him would go ANY better?!?! I'm not about to sit around another month to find out. Maybe your time isn't is valuable as mine, Frank?
   
  -Daniel


----------



## Danno

This sounds so wrong lol
  
  Quote: 





sinofdreams999 said:


> I don't feel any kind of heat from my knob and whole unit just becomes little warm. Definitely something is wrong with yours.


----------



## BournePerfect

lol


----------



## darknight670

So Purrin did you had the occasion to test the opa627 from Tam because for 15 dollars I would really expect a fake ( Even if Tam is not aware)


----------



## RockinCannoisseur

matrix is good as a preamp with some caveats.
   
  at first i was using it it to drive kpisch rb 51 75 watt  as previously stated,  and it can do a surprising job with gain implemented in fact it also could drive some polk tsi 200   100 watt speakers with gain implemented much louder and better than i had thought.
   
  alas this was not enough so i moved my old tx 8511 receiver into the equationand kept the matrix as the preamp,, this sounds much better obviously, and the matrix sounds very good,  its detailed sound mates very welll with a receiver with tone control. i think it would sound excellent as a preamp for a tube amp.  it has been very nice to have a precision analog pot to adjust volume rather than a remote (ironically)  which has a stepped gain and is not as precise, it also takes much more time to turn volume down.
   
  some caveats ive noticed is that the matrix can get very hot as a preamp even when i turn my receiver volume up all  way to minimize the power from the matrix.   i am pushing the matrix to its limits and shall see how much more it can take.
   
  another strange caveat, is for some reason when my receiver is powered off and there is sound coming through both of the m stage  inputs,  if i turn the volume all the way down on matrix,, the sound from the other input bleeds through and is annoying.  
   
  even weirder is when i trun my receiver on and still have sound coming through both matrix inputs, it  is silent and sound dosent bleed through from either chanel? go figure??   anyone??   another thing i noticed is that matrix still gets  very hot when outputs is connected to my receiver even when the receiver is powered off.
   
   - so i am thinking the receiver is always drawing power from the matrix even when it is off???? how is that???
   
  also i found that on some tracks my receiver head out can sound more  fun with all tone control at 0,  maybe it lacks some mids on some. but this is with the matrix feeding the signal. so i have not compared them both from a split signal from the source, so the tx8511 has  an advantage.
   
  overall i highly recommend u try using your m stage as a preamp, you may become addicted to it like i have,
   
  however i am curious if anyone else has had  similar results.
   
  thanks


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





bourneperfect said:


> He actually suggested repeatedly in his email to me to order from someone else, because he couldn't believe what the customs guys were telling him. He was the one who emailed me wanting me to cancel because of that situation. I didn't ask him for the $50 or even HINT at anything of that nature. And to me, time=$. I'd have paid an extra fifty just to get the damn thing a month ago! And who's to say the next order from him would go ANY better?!?! I'm not about to sit around another month to find out. Maybe your time isn't is valuable as mine, Frank?
> 
> -Daniel


 

 My time has nothing to do with it. If your comfortable with your order seem like your going through the process again with another vendor. Why would that be a different scenario with customs?


----------



## lescanard

Was wondering if someone could be so kind as to explain (in layman's terms) what Class A biasing the opamp means/does? I've tried to read up on it here and elsewhere -I just don't have the technical background to understand what the point is. Thanks for anything on this.


----------



## aspenx

Quote: 





lescanard said:


> Was wondering if someone could be so kind as to explain (in layman's terms) what Class A biasing the opamp means/does? I've tried to read up on it here and elsewhere -I just don't have the technical background to understand what the point is. Thanks for anything on this.


 


  It means pushing the opamp to keep drawing a constant current so that it will always be ready and be prepared to handle more complex passages whenever the music being fed in calls for it.


----------



## lescanard

Quote: 





aspenx said:


> It means pushing the opamp to keep drawing a constant current so that it will always be ready and be prepared to handle more complex passages whenever the music being fed in calls for it.


 

 Thanks Aspenx - that's a great explanation. So by "handle more complex passages" - does that specifically refer to power?


----------



## Yuceka

Has anyone driven DT990/600 ohms with the Matrix? I couldn't find any impressions on the synergy between the two


----------



## dlaloum

Can't talk about the DT990 - but the DT880/600's on which I am currently listening to Sinead O'Connor sound fantastic.... and from what I know given the similarity in the drivers between DT990 and 880 I would suggest that you would do fine!!
   
  On the other hand, 1) I have heard a limited number of headamps (Cute Curve, Onkyo TX-SR876 receiver Jack, Headtap with Receiver and Matrix M-Stage) .
   
  I currently have the M-Stage running OPA637's in class A - it also sounded great with the OPA627's in class A (both were better than the stock OPA2134's).... I'm still experimenting.


----------



## Yuceka

Dlaloum, thank you, that helps me a lot. I've been reading the posts here about different opamps but I just have no soldering skills and I don't even know where to find those different opamps to start experimenting. I wish there was a post that explains to whole process to newbies like me (maybe there is, and I'd greatly appreciate the link if there is one)


----------



## sluker

I am mostly planning to use the M-stage with my 701's, so I am wondering what the best gain settings people have found to work with the 701, HF-2 and the D5000's? 
  I am still waiting for my amp but will hopefully have it sometime next week.
  If you have not tried the above cans, please comment on which cans you have tried and what is the best gain setting that works for you.
  Thanks


----------



## aspenx

Quote: 





lescanard said:


> Thanks Aspenx - that's a great explanation. So by "handle more complex passages" - does that specifically refer to power?


 

 Imagine a big band coming to life and everybody starts playing hard from their respective spots all of a sudden. That is of course just an exaggeration, but you get the idea. It's going to be very different from say, a simple children song's melody on solo piano.


----------



## livewire

Quote: 





yuceka said:


> Dlaloum, thank you, that helps me a lot. I've been reading the posts here about different opamps but I just have no soldering skills and I don't even know where to find those different opamps to start experimenting. I wish there was a post that explains to whole process to newbies like me (maybe there is, and I'd greatly appreciate the link if there is one)


 


 Here you go. Follow the link below.
  It wont tell you everything (like actually _how _to solder), but darn near.
  Also look for other links embedded in the individual posts, much more info there.
  Please note that the board referenced in that thread (the lovely cube)
  is another Lehmann Black Cube clone (and so is the M-Stage).
  They are all very similar builds, same topology, and use the same op amp mods.
   
  Link: http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/501046/first-impressions-lovely-cube-semi-diy-amp-lehmann-black-cube-linear-clone
   
  EDIT: Here a are few places to get op amps and adapters in the USA. Beware that a lot of asian vendors sell fakes!
   
  Link: www.Mouser.com
   
  Link: www.Newark.com
   
  Link: www.Digikey.com
   
  Link: http://cimarrontechnology.com


----------



## livewire

Quote: 





sluker said:


> I am mostly planning to use the M-stage with my 701's, so I am wondering what the best gain settings people have found to work with the 701, HF-2 and the D5000's?
> I am still waiting for my amp but will hopefully have it sometime next week.
> If you have not tried the above cans, please comment on which cans you have tried and what is the best gain setting that works for you.
> Thanks


 

 I have the K702's with my M-Stage V2 gain set @ 10dB.
  This will drive my AKG's to a SPL of ~105dB with the level control turned all the way up.
  Perfect sound, all around. There is no clipping or distortion and it still maintains a silent noise floor.
  BTW, that is too loud for me. I prefer a SPL of 85dB - 95dB max. (tested with a sound meter)
  I've been tempted to try the 18dB setting, some people have mentioned that is too high
  for these cans, that setting is better with 300 to 600 ohm phones. I really dont know.


----------



## BournePerfect

Quote: 





frank i said:


> My time has nothing to do with it. If your comfortable with your order seem like your going through the process again with another vendor. Why would that be a different scenario with customs?


 
  Let me phrase it another way then: I don't like making the same mistake twice. Plus a previous poster very recently claimed to have gotten his from hllyaudio in 6 days, echoing a few other posters' sentiments.
   
  -Daniel


----------



## purrin

Quote:


alfbaxter said:


> That sounds not quite right. I have the V2 with the same class-a mod, and I never feel any warmth in the volume control. The only bits that get hot are the fets - the heatsinks on those are way too hot to touch. But the top of the case itself only ever gets fairly warm, and it never manages to heat the volume control.


 
 I've had the knob get hot on me a few times.  It depends A LOT of the ambient temperature.  There is a big difference in how hot the amp gets going from 70F ambient to 95F.  The output stage is class A, so it's going to get hot.  The heat is nothing compared to something that is heavily biased into Class A like a Schitt Asgard 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 (ducks for cover LOL!)


----------



## purrin

Quote:


darknight670 said:


> So Purrin did you had the occasion to test the opa627 from Tam because for 15 dollars I would really expect a fake ( Even if Tam is not aware)


   
  I didn't want to get into this, but since you asked...  I had the web order form all filled out and decided not to go for it at the last second.  I'm not saying they are fakes, but $15 for TWO pieces (when an order for quantity 100 from Mouser is $22.20 for just ONE piece) just sounds too good-to-be true.


----------



## sunneebear

I've bought the 627AU a while back from China and before doing so I tried to read up on it.  Seems there are many similar discussions on many different forums.  Don't quote me on this but if I remember correctly, a few posters claim that Burr Brown contracted a Chinese company for a number of chips, one being the 627AU and that's why they are so plentiful and cheap.


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





livewire said:


> EDIT: Here a are few places to get op amps and adapters in the USA. Beware that a lot of asian vendors sell fakes!
> Link: www.Mouser.com
> 
> Link: www.Newark.com
> ...


 
   
  Asian vendors don't sell fakes, they design and make their own adapters - some bad, some much better than the likes of Cimarron's.


----------



## lessblue

I have my Matrix M-Stage up for sale if anyone is interested.


----------



## daisangen

I dropped Audio-gd OPA-Earth in and my initial impressions are quite impressive.
   
  LME49720NA is great but I think it's a bit too artificial sounding, Earth sounds rather similar but has better soundstaging and more balanced, natural presentation.


----------



## dlaloum

Just finished testing my current collection of OPAMPS in the M-Stage with RMAA...
   
  Tested them all at 0 Gain and then at +12dB gain... I am still waiting for my OPA744's and LT1028ACN8's to arrive - so there will be a couple more later. (all were with the Class A mod 3.9k resistors)
   
  Results of interest (using OPA2132 as baseline "good chip"):
   
  All opamps consistently show around -2db at 20khz with +12db gain - so that is a property of the overall design (buffer stage?) - at 0db gain everything is ruler flat to 20khz
   
  Crosstalk performance gets worse as gain rises - typically at 0db the better chips get circa -90db crosstalk at +12dB gain this drops to around -75dB - no big deal but possibly a contributor to IMD
   
  Opamps on Dual DIP adapters consistently show more differences between the two channels (across all categories) - crosstalk, phase diff, noise, distortion.
  Opamps on Dual SIP to DIP adapters (top/bottom) do better, suffer less from noise and other impacts - not as convenient for experimenting - but Definitely better results.... I do not have identical opamps in sip/dip adapters to compare - so all I am doing is looking at trends and channel differences, and noting that these don't happen on dual channel chips. (or are much reduced)
   
  Tendency for many of the better chips to show harmonic spikes in the highs above 5kHz - but only at 0gain - these disappear at +12db gain
   
  OPA2111 - has relatively high Harmonic distortion - like 4x more than the other opamps - this probably contributes to its "colour" - much worse is its intermodulation - 3 to 10 times higher than the others... nasty  both distortions are around 8dB higher than most of the other opamps - drop this one off your list..... 
   
  LME49860/49720 results are so close these two are definitely interchangeable - results are very good, with the expected increase in noise/distortion as gain rises - no strange spikes hash etc.. on the graphs - Nice Opamps - show the harmonic peaks above 5k well controlled THD on a par with 2132, a smidge worse than 627/637 IMD worse than any of those 3 but still very good (.0082% vs .0065%).
   
  AD797 - taken in isolation, Noise and distortion are well controlled, Graphs are pretty clean - looks pretty good - BUT - at higher gain (+12db) I am seeing lots of IMD - also substantial channel difference in both gain settings - this is on a 2SIM/Dip adapter - I think the AD797 just doesn't like the adapter - and being a finicky, sensitive chip it plays up.... It does have a higher noise floor than the better chips as base (circa 4-5db) - not a major concern - but the IMD when at higher gain is a concern. (would love to know if a better adapter could fix this problem.... but that would mean buying more.... spent enough $ on these already!) - Think these have promise but probably not on this adapter.
   
  HA3-2525 - intersil were nice enough to send me some samples - These start off with an interesting tilted noise/distortion graph line - higher in the low frequencies, dropping in the highs (the OPA's tend to be flat-ish) - overall that results in having a Noise floor that tends to be 3-4db higher than the better chips THD is high - circa 12db higher at 200Hz dropping around 6db at 1K and then ending up still 2-3db higher than things like OPA2132. Nasty Harmic Peaks way higher than good competitors...IMD picture is identical - so in terms of distortion NOT a good thing ( 4x good chips in IMD, up to 20x the better chips in THD) - after some rave reviews in various forums, I was expecting better....disapointing. (side note - they are on a 2DIP/Dip adapter - so worst case.... still others have the same handicap and manage it better)
   
  OPA228 on 2DIP/DIP adapter - Good low noise floor - High distortions both IMD and THD - THD is 10x the 2132, IMD is 2x - Nothing really nasty, just nothing really great either - technically not fantastic but not too bad 5db difference in L/R crosstalk - symptomatic of the adapter?
   
  OPA2107  marginally more THD than 2132 otherwise two peas from a pod - Good result
   
  OPA627 -2SIP/DIP coolfungadget adapter - Good performance almost a twin to the 2132/2107 - has overall better results (marginal) with some interesting THD spikes (low level well controlled) coming in above 8KHz only in the 0db situation - at +12db they are completely gone.. (or hidden in the noise floor) - Gain seems to stabilise them... give them some stick and they sing! (so they thrive on hard to drive HP's)
   
  OPA637 - 2DIP/DIP adapter - almost identical to OPA627 - in other words very very good - also shows the THD spikes in the high frequencies at 0db gain - which also disappear at +12db gain - however in the 637's case they extend down to 5KHz - they are however very small in magnitude - same as the 627 - these two chips measure very well.
   
  OPA2132 - Impressive benchmark - although slightly bettered by the OPA627/637 pair same pattern of Harmonics in the highs as the 627/637 extending down to circa 5-6k - only at low gain, and very well controlled. IMD and THD measures consistently a hair higher than 627/637 - if it were a single measurement it would be within test variation - but across multiple tests it still measures that little bit worse. (could be well within production batch variations though - the difference is really small)
   
  OK thats it for now - my Top of the pops at this stage on technical merit are the OPA family Joint first 627/637 by a nose followed by 2132, then the LME49720/49860(4562?) and finally 2107.
   
  I still need to pull the 2604 from the other amp to add to this test... but at this stage I probably will not bother listening closely to the HA3-2525, OPA2111. I may give the 797 a listen eventually as I feel some of its poor showing may be due to the adapter, and I want to see what it sounds like.
   
  So far I spent 2 weeks listening to OPA637 and really enjoying it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 - gonna switch to something else maybe tomorrow and see how it all feels - moving into subjective territory ....


----------



## dlaloum

Quote: 





lessblue said:


> I have my Matrix M-Stage up for sale if anyone is interested.


 


  Why? not happy with it? Found something better?


----------



## lessblue

Not at all, it's a great amp and the OPA2107 made it better. I'm in that impulsive head-fi stage and trying different things. I started with my SR225i and added the Little Dot I+ both of which I still have. I've since added HD650s and the Matrix works wonderfully with the HD650. While the Matrix was good with the SR225i's, I preferred the LDI+ (also with OPA2107 and Sylvania Gold Brand NOS 408As) with the SR225i. People weren't kidding about that combo. So hoping to eventually land on a single amp for the SR225i and HD650s and I'm just in an experimental phase right now. I never got to try the Class A Bias out unfortunately.
   
  Well it didn't last long, already sold.
  Quote: 





dlaloum said:


> Why? not happy with it? Found something better?


----------



## Sganzerla

Quote: 





daisangen said:


> I dropped Audio-gd OPA-Earth in and my initial impressions are quite impressive.
> 
> LME49720NA is great but I think it's a bit too artificial sounding, Earth sounds rather similar but has better soundstaging and more balanced, natural presentation.


 


   I tried OPA-Earth and found huge differences between it and LM4562 (2.7k) that I'm using now - and won by a wide margin the other OPAs I tried.
   
   OPA-Earth is VERY smooth at mids, has better background, is more coherent, has more pronunced warm mids and a DEEPER soundstage. LM4562 has a much larger soundstage at sides, but looses in depth, sounds a little more dynamic and fast and maybe a little more extended on top. Timbre on both is different but I can't really say which one sounds more accurate.
   
   Overall I think one compliments the other.


----------



## Mad Max

ADA4627-1B has the most accurate timbre, though I'm not completely certain.  Doesn't mean jack though since the rest of the amp is not timbre-accurate to my ears, but it's not terribly far off, if I'm not mistaken.
   
  If you still have that Compass in your sig, try LT1115 in it feeding the M-Stage w/ ADA4627-1B, though I feel LT1115 doesn't synergize enough with AD1852 to give it natural enough timbre (plus I think it might even be oscillating a bit in the ultra-sonic frequencies judging by its temperature), I haven't been able to find a better combo.  But, screw timbre, I like THS4081 and ADA4627-1B much better than anything in the Compass.  XD
   
  inb4 LT1028 is the better version of LT1115, 1028 doesn't synergize with the Compass like LT1115.  Also, LT1028 isn't stable in the M-Stage.
   
  Edit: I take it back, I think the M-Stage becomes more accurate with ADA4627-1B.  I know my portable rig does have relatively natural timbre if I stick AD744AH (or '744JN) in my Minibox-E+ and with 4627 in the M-Stage timbre wasn't changed when feeding my portable rig's ouput into it.  It's pretty addicting how believable vocals/strings/etc. sound.  Then plug in an HD600/RE0/RE252, and


----------



## dlaloum

Quote: 





sganzerla said:


> Overall I think one compliments the other.


 

 Yes indeed..... OPA-Earth: "aren't you a lovely chip, so fast, dynamic" - LM4562 "you are so smooth, warm..." 
   
  Whereas some devices complement each other....something that completes or makes perfect: _A good wine is a complement to a good meal._
   
  (Sorry I have a strong pedantic streak - and hate to see people using faulty language)


----------



## Moeks

I have also ordered a Matrix M-Stage off coolfungadget, I ordered it on the 8th to be sent to the UK, I haven't heard anything from him since but I just sent him a message via e-Bay requesting confirmation that it has been posted and asking if he has a tracking number I can use. The e-Bay delivery estimate is Oct 25th to Nov 10th though ...so who knows. Based on the feedback I've seen here I'm not worried, I would have liked a postage confirmation without having to ask though, I think most people would as they like to know where their item is and how the order is progressing etc. Especially when ordering from the other side of the world. I'll let you all know how it goes anyway.

 I've decided to take apart my speaker based system and move to a headphone one ...also I'm in the process of ripping my entire cd collection to FLAC, so I can run a TOSlink from my HTPC to my dac (DacMagic) and then to the M-Stage. Right now I am using Grado SR80s I've had for about 10 years but used very little, I just replaced the ear-cups on them and they are good as new. I've held off changing my headphones right now as I'd like to get the M-Stage setup and burnt in with the SR80s so I can see how it sounds and then decide if I would like to change anything etc.
   
  If anyone is interested my speaker based system is the original Exposure cd player (their first cd player, the £1k model they made about 12 years ago), a Krell KAV300i amp and Dynaudio Audience 42 speakers. I've had various other bits and bobs too over the years. I've always been a fan of Rega and Naim stuff as well as Exposure ...I like sound with pace and rythm thus far in my life I've not been such a big fan of tubes and equipment which is described as sounding warm and silky smooth etc ...still, I never rule anything out unti lI've heard it. I bought the Krell years ago because it pretty well took my breath away with it's huge solid state punch in the woofers, it has amazing low end grip and control. However I just don't have speakers capable of amazing bass nor do I have the space to accommodate any that do, I can't even lay my little Dyns out quite the way I would like to and I have to use them with the bass ports filled to boot.
   
  Thus far Grado phones seem to suite me well enough, however I'll be the first to admit my headfi experience is limited though, I've only dabbled with headphones in the past and never listended to a lot of the favourites around here, I like what I have so far but I would like it to sound a bit more open and airy though, bit more sound stage and I would like a bit more low end, but it has to be tight and controlled, I don't like woolly and sloppy bass. Hopefully the Matrix M-Stage combined with DacMagic and SR80s will prove to be a good starting point for my headphone system.
   
  As odd as this may sound and as wrong as it may seem, I find my Grados plugged into the headphone out jack on my Logitech Z10 computer speakers listening to FLAC's via Foobar 2000 not only convenient but also sonically more appealing than my proper and expensive Hi-Fi now, hence making some changes and brining them together properly. I'll sell the Krell at least, that should make me plenty of cash back anyway, I'll see what I can get for the Dyns too, as for the Exposure, that's staying, I don't want to give up my cd player entirely so I'll run that into the second set of outputs on the M-Stage and see how it sounds. It should be good, it sounds better than the DacMagic with an old Marantz CD63SE I have as a tansport connected directly to the Krell anyway ...then again it was a lot more expensive in it's day.


----------



## sunneebear

I would try this before letting the Krell go.  Image near the bottom of the page.
   
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/10188/joseph-grado-speaker-output-to-headphone-adapter


----------



## Moeks

Well I could do something like that I suppose, but I've already ordered and paid for the Matrix M-Stage ...and using the Krell to drive headphones is kind of like using a thermo nuclear weapon to knock a door of it's hinges. Could be interesting though I'll grant you that. The KAV300i pulls 38 watts of power just in standby anyway and my electricity bills aren't going down, if I unplug it it takes quite a long time to get back upto running temperature so I never do, it's basically had power running into it almost without fail for the 7 years that I have had it (I bought it second hand). Besides, it's worth quite a lot and I suspect it's worth more to someone else looking to drive a nice pair or speakers than it is to me now in all honesty.


----------



## daisangen

You're right about the soundstage being huge but I think it's too large and sounds unnatural, with K701 anyway.
   
  The more I get hours on Earth, the more I think it destroys LME49720NA. My only small gripe with Earth is the treble extension, it's more or less on par with LME49720NA but I wish it went higher. Hopefully the fabled 300 hours of burn in does its magic as people say.
   
  I tried the Moon quickly and found it pretty good, but I think it's too smooth out of the box. I'll give it a good run after Earth.
   
  I have to try the biasing mod for LME49720NA someday, though.
   
   
   
  Quote: 





			
				Sganzerla said:
			
		

> I tried OPA-Earth and found huge differences between it and LM4562 (2.7k) that I'm using now - and won by a wide margin the other OPAs I tried.
> 
> OPA-Earth is VERY smooth at mids, has better background, is more coherent, has more pronunced warm mids and a DEEPER soundstage. LM4562 has a much larger soundstage at sides, but looses in depth, sounds a little more dynamic and fast and maybe a little more extended on top. Timbre on both is different but I can't really say which one sounds more accurate.
> 
> Overall I think one compliments the other.


----------



## Vandal

Superb review!


----------



## kuwahshi

I feel silly asking this but I'm new to headphone amps and this seems to be a good priced one to pair with my HD580. Can the Matrix M-Stage be plugged into my PC to listen to music on my computer (through the headphone socket?)? I've seen other amps with USB cables but is that because they have an incorporated DAC?


----------



## Moeks

The Matrix M-Stage is just an amplifier, not a DAC but you could of course feed it an analogue signal from your pc, so it has 2 rca inputs, so you could connect say a cd player to one set and a computer to the other, depending on what connections your sound card has though you would likely have to use a mini 3.5mm jack to rca phono lead, or a converter on the sound-card end and then a standard pair of rca phono cables.

  
  But no, the M-Stage is not a DAC and can't accept a digital signal directly.

  
  What would happen in say (my setup) and probably most other peoples it is that both a computer and a DAC are used, so you run a digital TOSlink or Coaxial connection from the computer straight into the DAC (or a USB connection if the DAC can take one) ...so that's a pure digital signal that hasn't been converted, then the external DAC converts this to analogue and outputs it where it is carried by a set of RCA photo leads to an amp, in this case the M-Stage. ...which then amplifies the signal and outputs to your headphones.
   
  Clear ?


----------



## volume

Did anyone compare the M stage with the audio gd amps for K701s.


----------



## ninjikiran

Quote: 





volume said:


> Did anyone compare the M stage with the audio gd amps for K701s.


 

  
  well considering a sizable number of people recommend the M-Stage for them I think it would be a worthy test.  Though the M-Stage is supposed to be fairly transparent, the k701's bring out all the nasties in a bad recording so some people prefer to add colorized distortion.
   
  Even from some of my music CD's the sound is just nasty without the headphones helping them out.


----------



## Sinofdreams999

Am I deaf? Why can't I notice significant difference between m-stage(op627+3.9k) and the amp section of tiny audinst mx-1? I do notice slight wider sound stage and slight warmer tone but I really had to listen hard for those. Is this it? This is what great amping is all about? I'm new here so please enlighten me....


----------



## ninjikiran

Well for me it was an upgraded volume pot, no hiss at human volume levels, and a slight upgrade in SQ.  But yea I see your view, I always substitute with the word slight.  Its a really good amp though imo~ well worth the price.  I would comment on inputs but most devices have input swapping, though if you want to AB a dac it is probably easier with the m-stage since it has a physical switch.  The gain switching functionality is also really good as well rather than having a "high" or "low" gain setting which might be too high or too low for middle ground headphones.  Think of that slight upgrade in SQ as a bonus, even if you don't notice it now I bet after a few months of listening to it those subtle changes will be more noticeable when you plug the audinst back in to compare.
  
  The M-Stage is an amp you probably won't need to upgrade for a long time if ever.(assuming it doesn't go bad or at some point you need balanced output or get "ear speakers") 
  Quote: 





sinofdreams999 said:


> Am I deaf? Why can't I notice significant difference between m-stage(op627+3.9k) and the amp section of tiny audinst mx-1? I do notice slight wider sound stage and slight warmer tone but I really had to listen hard for those. Is this it? This is what great amping is all about? I'm new here so please enlighten me....


----------



## audiofil

Quote: 





sinofdreams999 said:


> Am I deaf? Why can't I notice significant difference between m-stage(op627+3.9k) and the amp section of tiny audinst mx-1? I do notice slight wider sound stage and slight warmer tone but I really had to listen hard for those. Is this it? This is what great amping is all about? I'm new here so please enlighten me....


 

  
  I'd advise you to give it more time and use a different opamp (the stock OPA2134 is a good start). OPA627 and dark sounding headphones rarely make a great combination.


----------



## kite7

Quote: 





sinofdreams999 said:


> Am I deaf? Why can't I notice significant difference between m-stage(op627+3.9k) and the amp section of tiny audinst mx-1? I do notice slight wider sound stage and slight warmer tone but I really had to listen hard for those. Is this it? This is what great amping is all about? I'm new here so please enlighten me....


 


  What headphones are you trying to amp? If you're trying to amp  a HD555 or AD700 , they're not going to improve because they are easy to drive. Higher impedance phones like HD600, K701 or 600 ohm beyers will benefit from the M-Stage.


----------



## AlfBaxter

audiofil said:


> I'd advise you to give it more time and use a different opamp (the stock OPA2134 is a good start). OPA627 and dark sounding headphones rarely make a great combination.









 Can't agree with this. For me the OPA627 in class-a is much brighter and more open than the OPA2134. Anyone who finds the 627 class-a too warm or dark sounding is not going to be impressed with the 2134 IMO. And as I've said before the 627 class-a does an excellent job with my Senn HD650, and is not at all dark; in fact it is as open and detailed as I've heard in the M-Stage.


----------



## daltonlanny

Quote: 





alfbaxter said:


> Can't agree with this. For me the OPA627 in class-a is much brighter and more open than the OPA2134. Anyone who finds the 627 class-a too warm or dark sounding is not going to be impressed with the 2134 IMO. And as I've said before the 627 class-a does an excellent job with my Senn HD650, and is not at all dark; in fact it is as open and detailed as I've heard in the M-Stage.


 


 x2. I agree 100%.


----------



## dlaloum

Quote: 





sinofdreams999 said:


> Am I deaf? Why can't I notice significant difference between m-stage(op627+3.9k) and the amp section of tiny audinst mx-1? I do notice slight wider sound stage and slight warmer tone but I really had to listen hard for those. Is this it? This is what great amping is all about? I'm new here so please enlighten me....


 


  an old trick - listen to the best - then go down a notch ..... much more obvious/discernible than going up one notch.... and remember the financial rule of thumb - for each NOTICEABLE step up the cost of gear doubles.
   
  So to get a really WOW difference you need to go up several of those notches as a minimum - do your sums and see where you go....
   
  Basic cmoy $20 ....one step up = $40 (noticeable but no a big deal) - subsequent steps $80 / $160 /$320  - M-Stage is about 4 notches up - so it should provide a easily noticeable step up... but it also depends on your HP's..... if you are using easy to drive basic ie's then there may not be a massive difference... but if the HP's are hard to drive AKG's, Beyers, etc... the difference will be much more noticeable.


----------



## audiofil

Quote:


alfbaxter said:


> Anyone who finds the 627 class-a too warm or dark sounding is not going to be impressed with the 2134 IMO.


 

 I agree, OPA2134 is a lesser performer.
   
   
  Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *AlfBaxter*
> 
> 
> 
> For me the OPA627 in class-a is much brighter and more open than the OPA2134.


 
   
  I agree about the openness.
  But I disagree about the brightness. I just wouldn't put "OPA627" and "bright" in the same sentence.
   
  In my system the M-stage (1st version) is quite a bit warmer and bassier with OPA627 vs. OPA2134 (both biased in class A).
  The OPA2134 without the bias resistor is quite a bit brighter and has a weaker bass response.
   
   
  Now, given the wide range of excellent opamps today I really believe there are much better choices for HD650 than OPA627.


----------



## AlfBaxter

Quote: 





audiofil said:


> I agree, OPA2134 is a lesser performer.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Interesting - your experience is the exact opposite of mine. You say that in your experience, the OPA2134 is (i) at its brightest and least bassy without the class-a bias mod, (ii) is brighter and less bassy in class-a than the OPA627 in class-a. I have only ever used the 2134 without the class-a mod, and in my experience (with M-Stage V2, I might add) things are exactly - and quite clearly - the other way around. The 627 with class-a is significantly brighter, and much, much less warm and bassy, than the 2134 without. I can even hear details in the top end with the 627 class-a that go missing in a pretty overwhelming lower midrange and bass on the 2134.
   
  It's really a night and day difference for me - the OPA627 in class-a sounds closer to the LM4562 (which I found too bright, bordering on painfully so) than it does to the opa2134 stock. Where did you get your OPA627? I bought mine from Cimarron, so am pretty sure it's genuine. If you picked your up very cheaply (not suggesting you did!) then it may not be genuine. Or it may be that different versions of the same model chip respond differently to class-a biasing.


----------



## audiofil

I'm using 2 x OPA627AP on a Browndog adapter and 3.3 kohm Vishay resistors.
  I use the same resistor values for OPA2134, but they're Muticomp instead of Vishay.
  Digikey/Farnell are my regular suppliers for components.
   
  Just for the sake of argument:
  - This is not the first time I use OPA627. Some time ago I used to modify TDA1541 based cd-players into NOS cd-players and OPA627 has been my top choice for many years, precisely for the sound signature I've described previously.
  - I'm using at the moment "bright" sounding headphones (AKG and Grado) with the M-stage, so we may perceive things differently. I prefer warmer sounding opamps like OPA2107 and OPA627 with them.
   
  If I were to use HD6x0, however, my personal choice would be different -  LME49720 HA (which echoes my initial statement - avoiding opa627 for dark headphones)


----------



## stephenguoo

I was considering the m stage, but i'm getting a Gilmore lite. I hope this is going to be better than the m stage. I will be using it with the hd650, so I hope they can couple up nicely.


----------



## sluker

Just got mine from HLLY 300 shipped with a HLLY TAMP-20 (25w/ch amp) included. Delivery took 7 days from order time, but zero communication other than from e-bay.
  A quick question for all those who have had theirs for a while. 
  How long for burn-in? How many hours for the most significant change?


----------



## purrin

Quote: 





alfbaxter said:


> It's really a night and day difference for me - the OPA627 in class-a sounds closer to the LM4562 (which I found too bright, bordering on painfully so) than it does to the opa2134 stock. Where did you get your OPA627? I bought mine from Cimarron, so am pretty sure it's genuine. If you picked your up very cheaply (not suggesting you did!) then it may not be genuine. Or it may be that different versions of the same model chip respond differently to class-a biasing.


 
   
  LOL, maybe you have sub-spec or wierd OPA2134? On M-Stage, I've found OPA2134 a little bit brighter (with tubbier bass) than LM4562 (warmer) and OPA627 (tho never tested this chip on M-Stage, but I'm speaking in general on other amps I've built).  OPA627 without class A biasing was extremely laid back, but with class A biasing, OPA627 comes to life. In regards to going class A, LM4562 gets warmer and BB chips mentioned above get brighter, except OPA2134 where I found sound signature doesn't change that much.


----------



## AlfBaxter

Quote: 





purrin said:


> LOL, maybe you have sub-spec or wierd OPA2134? On M-Stage, I've found OPA2134 a little bit brighter (with tubbier bass) than LM4562 (warmer) and OPA627 (tho never tested this chip on M-Stage, but I'm speaking in general on other amps I've built).  OPA627 without class A biasing was extremely laid back, but with class A biasing, OPA627 comes to life. In regards to going class A, LM4562 gets warmer and BB chips mentioned above get brighter, except OPA2134 where I found sound signature doesn't change that much.


 

 Yeah something's definitely different in the chips I have, given my setup. No way LM4562 is warmer than OPA2134 - my girlfriend listened to some music when I had the LM4562 in and without any prompting from me said it hurt her ears after prolonged listening, due to the emphasis at the top end. I have switched them many times, trying to decide which I liked more - I always went back to OPA2134, which, despite comparative lack of detail in the treble and excess lower mid and bass, was always more pleasant for extended listening. My LM4562 was positively harsh in comparison to the OPA2134.
   
  For what it's worth, the LM4562 is a pull from an Auzen prelude, and the OPA2134 is the stock one from the M-Stage. Also without prompting, gf said that the OPA627 in class-a had all the detail she heard in the LM4562 without any of the fatiguing treble. This is exactly what I had independently concluded.
   
  I would suspect that we don't mean the same thing by terms like 'bright' were it not for the fact that I agree with you entirely that the OPA627 is laid back when not in class-A, but gets brighter and - as you say - comes to life with the mod.


----------



## AlfBaxter

Quote: 





audiofil said:


> If I were to use HD6x0, however, my personal choice would be different -  LME49720 HA (which echoes my initial statement - avoiding opa627 for dark headphones)


 

 I agree about that. Maybe we have had different experiences with HD6x0. Mine are the revised version (silver baffle) and while they are not short on bass, they are certainly not dark sounding. I do think the Burr-Brown opamps are generally on the warm side, and so wouldn't advise anyone to pair them with headphones that lack top end - but like I say, I have never found my HD650 to be dark. In any case, I can certainly recommend M-Stage with OPA627 to those who have later versions of the HD650 - but maybe not for those who have the original versions that suffer from the Senn 'veil'.


----------



## ninjikiran

True story, the LM4562 from the prelude seems a bit more amplified on the high end compared to the Lm4562 I bought from digikey and LME49720 I got from purrin.
   
  It might just be something awkward with the batch Auzentech got.  While it might not make a noticeable difference for me, I have been thinking of trying the HA model of the LME49720(metal can).  I wonder if I can just stick the pin into a standard dip8 without conversion.  The cost to risk ratio is close to nothing and it'll quell my curiosity.  It wouldn't go into my M-Stage though, it'll go in my DAC which is using the plastic variant.


----------



## Mad Max

Sure you can stick the metal can in just like that (after carefully trimming the leads), but it is not good for the long run, I'm told.  You should solder the opamp into an appropriate adapter first.


----------



## sluker

OK 
  This is dissapointing, after three hours of use the right channel cut out. I have tried both inputs and different cans as well as letting it sit idle for a half hour but it is still not working. One interesting observation is that when I turn it off for the fraction of a second that the power is still there the right channel comes back.
  Has anyone experienced this? Is there a quick fix?
  I would hate to send this thing back to China after three hours of use.


----------



## Mad Max

Have you contacted coolfungadget about it?


----------



## sluker

Actually I bought it from HLLY, and yes I sent them an e-mail. No response yet. 
  Edit:
  I just got a response from David Gao (quick) and he suggested that I open it up and make sure the op-amp is secure. Otherwise he said I should send it back. 
  Does anyone know if HLLY covers shipping for warranty? Normally I wouldn't complain but I have had this thing all of six hours and shipping to China ain't cheap (so much for a good deal).
  By the way, how do I know which is the op-amp


----------



## Mad Max

Right there.


----------



## sluker

Thanks
  While I am in there is there anything else I should check which could be causing this?


----------



## ev01ut10ndt

WOOT! Mine arrived this morning. I chased down the mailman for it, haha. They needed my signature and just put a notice in my mailbox. I walked out and saw the truck there and the mailman a block away. After getting the package, I realized I had no 3.5mm to RCA cables. =(
   
  Quick shipping: Ordered Monday night and got it a week later from jtam.
   
  Borrowing my roommates just now...first impressions! I'm running it from a Hot Audio dac (very inexpensive), and its a surprisingly neutral amp. No emphasis on anything. Initially, I was really disappointed. "sounds almost the same....not worth the amount I paid...maybe I should have gotten the Matrix DAC instead..." Kept playing different tracks on my computer and then stopped at Fiona Apple's Extraordinary Machine. Wow!
   
  What I did hear was a expansion of the soundstage and instrument separation. The clarity of her voice...stunning. Its very much obvious that the amp is extremely revealing. Tracks off of youtube HD (Franz Ferdinand) sound very close to before, but tracks off a cd (norah jones, dido's recent Stay at Home), show a much more dramatic improvement. My reference speakers are my dad's back home and I would say the HD650s + this amp are about 90% there. Sure, it doesn't have the kick of the 16hz range subwoofer, and the midrange richness of the floorstanding speakers. However my whole set up that cost the same as just the sub back home...can't complain! A comparison would be having a great pair of speakers and powering it with a $100 amp from best buy. Then you grab a Mcintosh and plug those speakers in and see how much more it can do. Not as dramatic as new speakers/headphones but a huge difference nonetheless.
   
  Just as a reference of improvements: 1 is ipod earbuds. 4 are grado sr-60s. 6 are HD650 straight out of an ipod/computer. 6.5-7 is with the amp. 10 are speakers that I've heard that cost more than a Mercedes. There comes a point of where its pretty much listening to the speakers/headphones rather than the music. 
   
  Minor complaint: I wish the power button was up in front, but meh, w/e. Casing is otherwise stunning. 
   
  Letting it burn in while I study for my exam tomorrow. Will update as soon I get more hours on it + have more time. I have no other amp to reference, so my purchasing decision was based off of impressions on this thread. Thanks guys for your inputs. Very much happy with this amp! =)


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





sluker said:


> Thanks
> While I am in there is there anything else I should check which could be causing this?


 
   
  There could also be components that are not working right or are not soldered properly, I imagine.  I don't know, but in that case you would need to know how to solder.  If the opamp seems to be defective or something, I have a spare one of the same I can send you so you don't have to ship the whole amp back to China.


----------



## ninjikiran

Yea thats what I figured, those adapters look easier to  solder than the SOIC's since you don't have to trim them.


----------



## stef50millbay

Unplug and find another power cord.The one they send dosent quite click in.Unplug everything and plug back,you should be ok.Good amp for the money.


----------



## sluker

Quote: 





stef50millbay said:


> Unplug and find another power cord.The one they send dosent quite click in.Unplug everything and plug back,you should be ok.Good amp for the money.


 
  Thanks
  Actually I am using my own power cord.


----------



## ninjikiran

Im using the stock power cable, I don't really like how easily it pulls out but it makes a solid connection.  I might replace it with an extra computer cable I have laying around so it doesn't come off as easily. 
   
  On my dac you can get it in so good, it takes actual elbow grease to get out once you stick it in.


----------



## Moeks

Well I contacted JTam and he gave me a tracking number, apparently my M-Stage arrived at Birmingham South sorting depot from Shanghai in the small hours of this morning and has now gone out for delivery, so I should get it today 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  7 days from China to the UK.
   
  Looking forward to this.


----------



## ninjikiran

Yea just a note, it wasn't only the M-stage that was getting delayed.  It seems most chinese goods were delayed due to their awkward holiday scheduling.


----------



## Moeks

Well I just got my unit, seems as advertised so far, I just listened to Black Sabbath's - Black Sabbath on it quickly, already an improvement on the headphone out of some Logitech Z10s I was using, however it seems a bit dry and light weight right now (the unit was very cold though), I reckon after it's warmed up properly it'll be much better and then as it burns in it should get better still I imagine. The unit is a bit smaller than I thought it actually, I knew it was narrow but it's lighter and shorter than I expected ...probably because I am used to full size speaker amps.

  
  I did not get hit for import duty and VAT so it just cost me £175 and that was it


----------



## TheMaestro335

Hello All,
  Does breakin improve the overall SQ, Detail, Sound stage etc... ?


----------



## ev01ut10ndt

From what I've read, the highs aren't as harsh as when straight out of the box. Other than that, I'll let you know in a week or so. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  Quote: 





themaestro335 said:


> Hello All,
> Does breakin improve the overall SQ, Detail, Sound stage etc... ?


----------



## TheMaestro335

Thanks,
  I am currently waiting for my delivery!


----------



## TheMiddleSky

I've tried M-Stage before (about couple months ago), while I can remember how good its sound especially for midrange area, I just a bit forget about its treble section. If I have cans that produce aggresive treble (not harsh, just aggresive), is M-Stage suitable to make that treble a bit laidback (more relaxing)?


----------



## Mad Max

Treble is a bit harsh, not very aggressive.


----------



## JoetheArachnid

Quote: 





moeks said:


> I did not get hit for import duty and VAT so it just cost me £175 and that was it


 


  I hope I'm as lucky as you when I eventually order mine. Need to get a bit richer first. Glad that shipping the the UK is just as fast as to the US.


----------



## ev01ut10ndt

After listening to the hd650 and the amp, I feel like the hd650 are turning into Grados. The highs are very detailed, emphasis on the upper midrange and a lean midrange. Is this because of my dac? Straight out of the dac is very smooth and less etchy in the highs. Or is it due to the lack of burn in so far? Thanks.


----------



## purrin

Quote: 





ninjikiran said:


> True story, the LM4562 from the prelude seems a bit more amplified on the high end compared to the Lm4562 I bought from digikey and LME49720 I got from purrin.
> 
> It might just be something awkward with the batch Auzentech got...


 
   
  Quote: 





alfbaxter said:


> Yeah something's definitely different in the chips I have, given my setup. No way LM4562 is warmer than OPA2134 - my girlfriend listened to some music when I had the LM4562 in and without any prompting from me said it hurt her ears after prolonged listening, due to the emphasis at the top end...
> 
> For what it's worth, the LM4562 is a pull from an Auzen prelude, and the OPA2134 is the stock one from the M-Stage. Also without prompting, gf said that the OPA627 in class-a had all the detail she heard in the LM4562 without any of the fatiguing treble. This is exactly what I had independently concluded.


 
   

 LOL something is definitely atypical with your LM4562.  Maybe Auzen bought a batch of fakes from some unscrupulous counterfeiter in China 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  It's entirely possible your LM4562 is different from others.  I have two OPA2107s that sound slightly different with one being obviously more bright, and a LM4562 and LME47920 (supposedly same thing) that do sound slightly different. I think it's like CPUs - some overclock better than others depending upon what factory or batch they were made.
 In my experience, LM4562 and OPA627 in class A sounded very similar with the LM chip being a bit more dynamic but grainy and the BB chip being smoother.  Differences weren't major though in Class A.


----------



## purrin

Quote: 





themiddlesky said:


> I've tried M-Stage before (about couple months ago), while I can remember how good its sound especially for midrange area, I just a bit forget about its treble section. If I have cans that produce aggresive treble (not harsh, just aggresive), is M-Stage suitable to make that treble a bit laidback (more relaxing)?


 

 No. Definitely not. The M-Stage is not laid back in the treble. The treble is ever so slightly grainy. Don't get me wrong, it's a great amp for the price, but this is one of the M-Stage's weaknesses. Still the M-Stage mates with Grados better than many other "neutral" amps.
   
  Everything is relative though, you have to take into account my other amp to know where I'm coming from.
   
  With my PS1000s, which have a little bit of a treble peak, the M-Stage works ONLY with my Sony X Walkman (LOD out) and none of my other sources. The Sony X is a very warm source with smooth highs and FR balance similar to tube equipment (but of course without tubes' bloom and harmonic richness - or 2nd order harmonic distortion - or whatever you want to call it.)  My M-Stage is modified though, but I've taken pains to make sure it's balance is similar to stock. It may be a hair brighter than stock M-Stage though.


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





purrin said:


> LOL something is definitely atypical with your LM4562.  Maybe Auzen bought a batch of fakes from some unscrupulous counterfeiter in China
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


  You can order the Matrix with the 627 opamp installed with the mod if I am not mistaken as Jeffrey sai he would do the mod. Question how do you know if JTam are real for sure and how is it going to sound hopefully it would be better than stock


----------



## purrin

Quote: 





ev01ut10ndt said:


> After listening to the hd650 and the amp, I feel like the hd650 are turning into Grados. The highs are very detailed, emphasis on the upper midrange and a lean midrange. Is this because of my dac? Straight out of the dac is very smooth and less etchy in the highs. Or is it due to the lack of burn in so far? Thanks.


 
   
  What's your DAC? For me, burn in didn't do anything for the Matrix. My Matrix does have a slightly lean low-midrange (from my removing the input caps and soldering on additional bypass caps for the output transistors to smooth the treble), but I would hardly call it lean overall or bright because of its decent bass. Give it a week though to let your ears burn in. It takes me a month for me to get accustomed to stuff and decide whether I truly like it or not.
   
  As said in another post, the highs can be grainy.


----------



## ev01ut10ndt

I'm using a Hotaudio hotusb1. Its quite inexpensive...more to get rid of the laptop's interference in the audio and smooth out grain. 
   
  I guess I prefer a tube sound, where there is a lot of warmth and richness (or overemphasis if you may) in the midrange, even at the expense of top end detail. I'll try new interconnects since I'm using a cheap RCA to RCA and then another RCA to 3.5mm right now. 
   
  Perhaps some modding is in order? Class A biasing + new OP amps... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Quote: 





purrin said:


> What's your DAC? For me, burn in didn't do anything for the Matrix. My Matrix does have a slightly lean low-midrange (from my removing the input caps and soldering on additional bypass caps for the output transistors to smooth the treble), but I would hardly call it lean overall or bright because of its decent bass. Give it a week though to let your ears burn in. It takes me a month for me to get accustomed to stuff and decide whether I truly like it or not.
> 
> As said in another post, the highs can be grainy.


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





purrin said:


> No. Definitely not. The M-Stage is not laid back in the treble. The treble is ever so slightly grainy. Don't get me wrong, it's a great amp for the price, but this is one of the M-Stage's weaknesses. Still *the M-Stage mates with Grados better than many other "neutral" amps.*
> 
> ...


 

  I don't know about other "neutral" amps, but my SR325is does love the M-Stage indeed.


----------



## ninjikiran

You should learn how to equalize, you can easily over emphasize any region 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Long as you get a good parametric EQ, most of which associated with VST.


----------



## Mad Max

Hell yeah, the Sonnox R3 EQ is awesome and doesn't dull or distort like the other EQs I've tried.


----------



## ninjikiran

Quote: 





mad max said:


> Hell yeah, the Sonnox R3 EQ is awesome and doesn't dull or distort like the other EQs I've tried.


 


  I kinda wish I could EQ properly but I usually fail at it miserably. But what I do know is a mix of different software can easily give you that tubey distorted sound without breaking a sweat


----------



## ev01ut10ndt

I was looking into the OPA627...and there are so many of them, with prices varying drastically.
   
  So when people are referring to the OPA627, which ones do you guys use? The OPA627BM? I know JTam uses the OPA627AU. What is even the difference between them?
   
  List of the many different ones...
http://focus.ti.com/docs/prod/folders/print/opa627.html
   
  So nice that we just just pull out the old one and just stick in a new one.


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





ninjikiran said:


> I kinda wish I could EQ properly but I usually fail at it miserably. But what I do know is a mix of different software can easily give you that tubey distorted sound without breaking a sweat


 

 Or you can just use the Trident EQs like the A-Range and not bother with quantity.  It will dull the treble, though.
   
   
   
  Quote: 





ev01ut10ndt said:


> I was looking into the OPA627...and there are so many of them, with prices varying drastically.
> 
> So when people are referring to the OPA627, which ones do you guys use? The OPA627BM? I know JTam uses the OPA627AU. What is even the difference between them?
> 
> ...


 

  
  627BM is military grade.  The military grades sound a little better and are more expensive.  627AU is lowest grade.


----------



## francisdemarte

Take a look at the datasheet, It explains the difference between versions as well as has drawings of each difference.
   
  Difference in how the chip is packaged, either as a solder on, through pin, or metal tin. This affects the temperature and voltages ranges it can tolerate.
   
  Other difference is how individual chips are packaged for loading into industrial machines. 
   
  When most people refer to the OPA627 they are either referring to SOIC versions or PDIP versions.


----------



## francisdemarte

Just got my OPA627's from JTam. He was nice enough to include one more because of the delay in shipping. Thanks Jeffrey! 
   
  Going to do the class A mod next week


----------



## ev01ut10ndt

I love this amp.
   
  So today I was wondering what the gain switches did...I was initially using the 18db setting. So going from 0db to 20 db, I felt like the soundstage got slightly smaller and more blurred. Reason being is that I feel that 20db smooths out a lot of the highs but at the expense of detail and thus instrument separation. The mids at 20db sounds richer and it tames the upper mids/lower highs slightly. I scared the heck out of myself when I flipped the switch from 0 to 20db and hit play. The knob at 12 oclock for 0db is ok, but not at 20db! To get the same volume, 20db was more like 9 oclock. Nonetheless, very cool that we can just flip a switch and we get a slightly different sound signature. 
   
  What are you guys using for the HD650s? I read earlier someone was using the 18db setting, hence why I was using it. I might stick to 20 since I like the rich mids and smooth highs. Who knows! 
   
  And perhaps someone more technically inclined can explain...how does the switch for gain settings work? And how does it account for the slight variation in sound signatures? Just curious...
   
  Once again, I love this amp.


----------



## ev01ut10ndt

Thanks for the explanation. I'm not an engineer at all and had no idea what the things on the datasheet meant. I would appreciate your input as to how the class A biasing sounds with the OPA627 from JTam. Did you get everything prebuilt or just the OPA itself or with the browndog adaptor?
  
  Quote: 





francisdemarte said:


> Take a look at the datasheet, It explains the difference between versions as well as has drawings of each difference.
> 
> Difference in how the chip is packaged, either as a solder on, through pin, or metal tin. This affects the temperature and voltages ranges it can tolerate.
> 
> ...


----------



## aspenx

Quote: 





ev01ut10ndt said:


> I love this amp.
> 
> So today I was wondering what the gain switches did...I was initially using the 18db setting. So going from 0db to 20 db, I felt like the soundstage got slightly smaller and more blurred. Reason being is that I feel that 20db smooths out a lot of the highs but at the expense of detail and thus instrument separation. The mids at 20db sounds richer and it tames the upper mids/lower highs slightly. I scared the heck out of myself when I flipped the switch from 0 to 20db and hit play. The knob at 12 oclock for 0db is ok, but not at 20db! To get the same volume, 20db was more like 9 oclock. Nonetheless, very cool that we can just flip a switch and we get a slightly different sound signature.
> 
> ...


 


  The gain switches let you choose which resistors you use for in the feedback loop of the opamp stage. Gain of an ideal opamp in a standard non-inverting opamp gain stage (which the M-Stage is) is determined by: 1 + (R4 / R3) where there are 2 possible resistors you can use for the R3 (which the switches manipulate how they are connected). The lowest gain setting uses ground as R3 and sets the opamp to a gain of 1 (gain = power out / power in). To convert gain to dB, you use the formula (10 lg A) where A is the gain. The highest gain setting in the amp sets uses the 2 resistors (the 2 switches) in parallel.
   
  The above is of course, on the presumption that the switches work the same way on the M-Stage as it does on the Lovely Cube.
   
  "Sound signature" does not change directly but raising the gain of the opamp does reduces effective bandwidth of the opamp (hence the "smooth highs"). Raising the gain is also necessary for opamps which are not unity gain stable (i.e OPA637 needs a gain of at least 5 (?) to be stable).
   
  HTH


----------



## BournePerfect

My M-Stageis finally here!!! I have to pick it up at the post office in the morning lol. A couple questions though: I'll be using my PC(Zune software/ all lossless)-->uDac-1-->M-Stage. How should I have the volume controls on all 3 set? I believe I need Windows volume 100% and the uDac at 100%, then control with the M-Stage. Is this correct? Also, would it be different using the uDac headphone out feeding the Matrix versus the rca outs? Which is better and why?  I'll be installing the OP627/Browndog/class A adapter first thing more than likely. Sorry for all the questions, but I just wanna make sure I'm not adding distortion by amping something twice (3 times?) and degrading sound quality. Thanks!
   
  -Daniel


----------



## ninjikiran

Windows @ 100% which is supposed to be +0db  Technically if you use WASAPI you completely evade that.  If you use a spdif on a sound card some bypass others don't,  less a worry with USB but I somehow doubt the udacs implementation of USB is all that great.  If you don't know what WASAPI is checkout foobar, easy to use and setup. 
   
  The Udacs RCA output probably bypasses the volume knob on your uDac, and if it doesn't see if you can toggle somthing to make it so.  You want the udac to be a simple dac.
   
  The RCA outputs are best because they are not amplified to keep this simple.  If you have amp you use the RCA outputs on a dac, not the headphone output which is always amplified and will more than likely add distortion and if no distortion will give you the same output you had before passing through another amp for further possible coloration.  Lets just say its not pretty.

  
  Quote: 





bourneperfect said:


> My M-Stageis finally here!!! I have to pick it up at the post office in the morning lol. A couple questions though: I'll be using my PC(Zune software/ all lossless)-->uDac-1-->M-Stage. How should I have the volume controls on all 3 set? I believe I need Windows volume 100% and the uDac at 100%, then control with the M-Stage. Is this correct? Also, would it be different using the uDac headphone out feeding the Matrix versus the rca outs? Which is better and why?  I'll be installing the OP627/Browndog/class A adapter first thing more than likely. Sorry for all the questions, but I just wanna make sure I'm not adding distortion by amping something twice (3 times?) and degrading sound quality. Thanks!
> 
> -Daniel


----------



## BournePerfect

Thanks ninji! Say I HAD to use the headphone out--would it be best to keep THAT volume control as low as possible, then use more on the other amp? Or am I losing a lot of the signal this way?
   
  -Daniel


----------



## gsilver

Has anyone used a DT880 32ohm with the M-Stage?
   
  I had a DT880 briefly and returned it, and one thing that was very noticeable was a buzzing sound (mild distortion) in a lot of instruments (I only tried acoustic music in my brief test, and most of the recordings were well done). I left the gain at +10db (1 on, 2 off) while I had it. My other headphones don't seem to do this.
   
  Since I haven't seen people report the same problem, did I just have the gain set too high?


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





gsilver said:


> Has anyone used a DT880 32ohm with the M-Stage?
> 
> I had a DT880 briefly and returned it, and one thing that was very noticeable was a buzzing sound (mild distortion) in a lot of instruments (I only tried acoustic music in my brief test, and most of the recordings were well done). I left the gain at +10db (1 on, 2 off) while I had it. My other headphones don't seem to do this.
> 
> Since I haven't seen people report the same problem, did I just have the gain set too high?


 

 sounds like a defective can. My T1 played well as well as the lower impedance D7000 at 10DB when I had the Matrix


----------



## purrin

Quote: 





frank i said:


> sounds like a defective can. My T1 played well as well as the lower impedance D7000 at 10DB when I had the Matrix


 
  yup, sounds like a bad driver(s). that's how a bad driver sounded on my DT770 before it died.


----------



## BournePerfect

Before I blow something up, can someone show me a pic of how the browndog/op627/class a combo is supposed to go in (which direction)? Also I took the OP2134 out, am I supposed to take out the stand that it sits in as well? I think it might be soldered in.
   
  -Daniel


----------



## daisangen

No, you plug the browndog w/ the OPA into the opamp socket which is indeed soldered. Remember correct positioning, the half-moon marks on the browndog and the socket must match.
  
  Quote: 





bourneperfect said:


> Before I blow something up, can someone show me a pic of how the browndog/op627/class a combo is supposed to go in (which direction)? Also I took the OP2134 out, am I supposed to take out the stand that it sits in as well? I think it might be soldered in.
> 
> -Daniel


----------



## BournePerfect

Thank you I just noticed the marking when you said that! I'll post my impressions afters 4-5 days of burn-in. I'm stoked!!!
   
  -Daniel
   
  ps: On a side not, Hlly sent me the black face plate (I ordered silver).
        I'm gonna email him and see if they'll send me the silver one or what they can do.
        David Gao...you there??? lemme know!


----------



## sluker

where would one purchase the browndog. Better yet is there a detailed explanation of how to retrofit this adapter and what opamps it works with. 
 This would be extremely useful for all the newbs (like me).


----------



## BournePerfect

I got the browndog op627 combo unit from coolfungadget.com for $20 shipped, and it arrived in like 6 days! Great job JTam!!!


----------



## BournePerfect

UPDATE:
   
       Holy cow this amp already impressed me. It's still literally cold (it slept at the post office last night) and has like 10 minutes on it lol. I installed browndog/op627 first thing. I just barely started listening to this song lately called Just a Dream by Nelly thru my uDac-1. It sounded good, but his vocals were seriously drowned out by the music to the point that I had to look up the lyrics to see the words. Everything just seemed to smear together, even though most of my music thru the uDac seemed clear for the most part. Now with the uDac feeding the M-Stage, all these vocals ARE CRYSTAL CLEAR AS DAY, and right up front. Holy crap that blew my mind! And this is with my .02 cent rca cables lol. The bass is definitely fuller as well. Well ima try and not post any more impressions til I get some more burn-in, but I was so impressed in 5 minutes with that song I just HAD to let you guys know lol!
   
  -Daniel


----------



## sluker

Quote: 





bourneperfect said:


> I got the browndog op627 combo unit from coolfungadget.com for $20 shipped, and it arrived in like 6 days! Great job JTam!!!


 

 Thanks, I just ordered one. With this adapter, can I use pretty much any of the opamps mentioned in this thread?


----------



## daisangen

I've had Earth in my M-Stage for a week and the sound is still all over the place. The signature keeps shifting like crazy, now there's literally no bass and just a while ago the bass was overwhelming with HD650.
   
  As I've never heard any changes with IC opamps, I was quite skeptic but I can't help but to agree with the people who talk about 300 hour burn-in with discretes, because it's very evident once you hear it.


----------



## ninjikiran

OPA-Sun doesn't seem to work like that all.
   
  On another note, its wierd if someones amp is cold =P as for its nature without vents the casing gets hot but I don't have any problems between listening to the amp 10 minutes after startup, to being on for hours.  No degrade in SQ even with a heavily taxed opamp in the socket due to biasing.


----------



## BournePerfect

Quote: 





sluker said:


> Thanks, I just ordered one. With this adapter, can I use pretty much any of the opamps mentioned in this thread?


 

 I'm pretty sure you can but don't quote me on that. If you do you need the Dip8 types to plug and play them. I couldn't tell if the OP627 was soldered to the browndog or if it was just plugged into it. If it was, you just plug the others opamps directly onto the board without the browndog (I think). I better shut up before I know what I'm talking about haha. That's my newb impressions from my short installation experience with mine, anyway.
   
  -Daniel


----------



## ninjikiran

My assumption is they sell you the opa627 pre-soldered into the browndog adapter since thats how its normally setup.  Never seen SOIC sockets, well not yet at least.   If you got it biased the resistors will be o nthe browdog adapter with OPA627.  If you bought the adapter they will be on the dip8 socket they mail you.
   
  Far as I know it should be ok to stick any chip in the socket.  I would assume worst case scenario you burn an opamp out if it goes too hot.


----------



## BournePerfect

Like I said my amp was physically cold from spending the night at the post office lol. Hadn't even been indoors for 20 minutes. I wasn't saying it doesn't warm up.
   
  -Daniel


----------



## ninjikiran

Quote: 





bourneperfect said:


> Like I said my amp was physically cold from spending the night at the post office lol. Hadn't even been indoors for 20 minutes. I wasn't saying it doesn't warm up.
> 
> -Daniel


 


  I got mines while it was still hot outside, no freezing aluminum or whatever metal they use to make this casing.


----------



## dlaloum

I have plugged in and tested with RMAA the following opamps both in class A and in default mode:
   
  OPA627 - on adaptor as supplied by JTAM 
  OPA637 - on double dip adaptor
  OPA2107
  OPA2111
  OPA2134
  OPA228 - on double dip adapter
  LME49720
  LME49860
  HA3-2525 - on double dip adapter
  AD797
   
  They all worked fine 
   
  I have done extended listening to:
  Default OPA2132
  Class A OPA627 - very nice
  Class A OPA637 - highs more pronounced than 627 - also very nice
  Class A LME49720 - don't like it so much - too dry, less air - sounds "electronic"
   
  Now started listening to class A HA3-2525 - (free samples from Intersil) - sounding better than LME49720 - only preliminary listening done so far. 
   
  If you don't want to be bothered with all the experimenting, get coolfungadget's OPA627 mod board with the class A mod direct soldered - plug it in and forget about it - the sound is superb - noticeably better than with the default opamp and without class A.


----------



## sluker

Quote: 





dlaloum said:


> I have plugged in and tested with RMAA the following opamps both in class A and in default mode:
> 
> OPA627 - on adaptor as supplied by JTAM
> OPA637 - on double dip adaptor
> ...


 
  Done,
  Thank you.


----------



## TheMaestro335

Hello all,
  I just got my M-stage, and have about 3hrs of burn in. I listened to a couple of tracks via my Beresford USB/DAC. I am using HD 600s with the gain switches set at 10db. The sound is very clear but sounds a little congested, especially in the middle of the sound stage. I am not getting the air around the instruments I get form my Little Dot MkIII. I know I barely have any miles on this amp. Will this amp open up more with burn in? I also tried the amp out with my 701s. same sound but the highs were very sharp?


----------



## purrin

Quote: 





themaestro335 said:


> Hello all,
> I just got my M-stage, and have about 3hrs of burn in. I listened to a couple of tracks via my Beresford USB/DAC. I am using HD 600s with the gain switches set at 10db. The sound is very clear but sounds a little congested, especially in the middle of the sound stage. I am not getting the air around the instruments I get form my Little Dot MkIII. I know I barely have any miles on this amp. Will this amp open up more with burn in? I also tried the amp out with my 701s. same sound but the highs were very sharp?


 
   
  The amp won't open up with burn in. The main culprit of the congestion "in the middle" is the stock op-amp OPA2134; "not getting air" is the fault of the input caps. You can remove the input caps and jumper the position with wire, this takes some simple soldering skills. Easiest thing to do is to replace the op-amp with something better - this is easy to do - many op-amps have been suggested in this thread.


----------



## ninjikiran

Sounds like your using the default opamp. I got that sense of congestion as well.  But things sound congested when my ears are not in their prime shape as well so that might of been the cause.  Or if I have trouble concentrating on what I am hearing. 
   
  Anyway as purrin said check out a new opamp and see if it helps out.
  Quote: 





themaestro335 said:


> Hello all,
> I just got my M-stage, and have about 3hrs of burn in. I listened to a couple of tracks via my Beresford USB/DAC. I am using HD 600s with the gain switches set at 10db. The sound is very clear but sounds a little congested, especially in the middle of the sound stage. I am not getting the air around the instruments I get form my Little Dot MkIII. I know I barely have any miles on this amp. Will this amp open up more with burn in? I also tried the amp out with my 701s. same sound but the highs were very sharp?


----------



## ev01ut10ndt

Does your Beresford have a HP amp? If so, I've always been curious as to how the hp out of that compared to the m-stage, considering that the dac/amp without mods is almost the same price. 
   
  And if you were to pick: just m-stage and whatever your source is (assuming computer's built in sound), or the beresford dac/amp using built in hp out, which would you pick? 
   
  How is it compared to the LDmk3?
   
  Quote: 





themaestro335 said:


> Hello all,
> I just got my M-stage, and have about 3hrs of burn in. I listened to a couple of tracks via my Beresford USB/DAC. I am using HD 600s with the gain switches set at 10db. The sound is very clear but sounds a little congested, especially in the middle of the sound stage. I am not getting the air around the instruments I get form my Little Dot MkIII. I know I barely have any miles on this amp. Will this amp open up more with burn in? I also tried the amp out with my 701s. same sound but the highs were very sharp?


----------



## dlaloum

Quote: 





themaestro335 said:


> Hello all,
> I just got my M-stage, and have about 3hrs of burn in. I listened to a couple of tracks via my Beresford USB/DAC. I am using HD 600s with the gain switches set at 10db. The sound is very clear but sounds a little congested, especially in the middle of the sound stage. I am not getting the air around the instruments I get form my Little Dot MkIII. I know I barely have any miles on this amp. Will this amp open up more with burn in? I also tried the amp out with my 701s. same sound but the highs were very sharp?


 

 Hate to repeat what others are saying - swap opamps - and seriously consider the Class A mod
   
  If you want to keep things simple - go OPA627 with class A.
  If your willing to spend more time - look for the recomendations of users like purring and majkel (lots of opmap reviews there) - build a shortlist of promising opamps - and go from there. you will still want the Class A mod - it improves many of the classic opamps substantially.
   
  With some of the latest opamps apparently they run class A internally and get little benefit from external/additional biasing. - But the OPA627/637 definitely benefit from it.


----------



## BournePerfect

I'm running my PC-->uDac-1 rca's-->M-Stage with the PC at full volume. What level should I have the uDac set at before using the Matrix to adjust? Will anything less than full on it not pass the full signal, or is that only important on the PC's end?
   
  -Daniel


----------



## daisangen

It will work either way, but for best results have maximum volume before the amplifier, you want to amplify the best signal as possible.
  
  Quote: 





bourneperfect said:


> I'm running my PC-->uDac-1 rca's-->M-Stage with the PC at full volume. What level should I have the uDac set at before using the Matrix to adjust? Will anything less than full on it not pass the full signal, or is that only important on the PC's end?
> 
> -Daniel


----------



## JoetheArachnid

Quote: 





bourneperfect said:


> I'm running my PC-->uDac-1 rca's-->M-Stage with the PC at full volume. What level should I have the uDac set at before using the Matrix to adjust? Will anything less than full on it not pass the full signal, or is that only important on the PC's end?
> 
> -Daniel


 

 Does the uDac volume knob actually adjust the RCA volume? I would have thought/hoped that the RCA out would just be a simple line out, since the uDac is not a preamp and doesn't need amped analogue out like the M-Stage does. If it does that's weird, but I'm also no sure what level you'd need to set it to to get a line level signal. You'd also end up with the M-Stage piggybacked on the uDac's less good internal amp, which probably won't sound too great.
   
  Hurm.


----------



## BournePerfect

Yep I tested that just a bit ago, I even played my headphones straight out of the uDac rca's with a y-cable to make sure. So basically impossible to feed my uDac into the Matrix without amping an already-amped signal right?!?! That's messed up, I'm not planning on upgrading my dac for another month or two. Does the uDac-2 upgrade kit act as a line-out over it's rca's?
   
  -Daniel


----------



## dlaloum

Quote: 





bourneperfect said:


> I'm running my PC-->uDac-1 rca's-->M-Stage with the PC at full volume. What level should I have the uDac set at before using the Matrix to adjust? Will anything less than full on it not pass the full signal, or is that only important on the PC's end?
> 
> -Daniel


 

 Unfortunately (having just read the Headfonia review of the uDac) the RCA's are a pre-out not a line out - that means several things :
   
  1) They pass through the internal amplifier and are controlled by the Volume Knob
  2) They are set up as 2V p-p out rather than standard line out (200mV)
   
  So if you crank the knob up to max, your digital 0db will come out as 2V (theoretically)
   
  There is no way to bypass the internal pre-amp, so you will need to experiment to find what gives the best sound.
   
  You need to set it to whatever setting minimises distortion and optimises sound quality - that way you can let the M-Stage do the "heavy lifting"
   
  Alternatively you could set the M-Stage Volume control to maximum and use the M-Stage as a Headphone "power amp" and then control volume with the uDac.
   
  It is impossible to tell without playing with the two of them what will give the best results.
   
  Another option would be to run a 0db test signal into the uDac, and measure the output voltage, then adjust to achieve standard line out...
   
  Consumer standard line out (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_level#Nominal_levels ) is: 0.447 V peak - so a continuous peak signal should give you a continuous voltage of 0.447V.
   
  I've never tried to use a multimeter to do this, but I can see no reason why it shouldn't work.
   
  The M-Stage  (Lehmann Black Cube Linear) circuit is designed for a Line input - it is unclear whether that is consumer line, US Pro or European Pro.... given it is German company, the likely options are EuroPro or Consumer - 2.192V or 0.447V (!!)
   
  I have not been able to track down a manual to check the detailed specs... so I am guessing - my first (safest) bet would be to aim for 0.447. That should be the level output by a CD player, tape deck, or any other standard consumer level product.
   
  I may do a little more investigation on this with my own rig...


----------



## BournePerfect

WOW! Thanks for the post (even if I don't understand half of it lol)! Sorry I'm barely learning about line-out and preamps and I honestly have no clue what the heck they are. I do recall reading somewhere that HeadphoneAddict also suggested the same thing: maxing the amp (M-Stage in this case) and controlling the volume with the uDac knob. Will this result in sub-optimal sound, or no quality loss? I have a feeling with the uDac-1's volume pot imbalances this might pose a problem. I'll try it as well see if I can notice anything. Would it matter if I used the headphone as the output method in this instance? I would think not, other than the interconnects.
   
  -Daniel


----------



## JoetheArachnid

Dang, that's a huge negative on the uDac for me considering that I was planning to use it with an external amp (M-Stage/Asgard).
  I guess I'm sold on the Musiland 02 US (or maybe save up for a Cube Dac?)


----------



## BournePerfect

Quote: 





joethearachnid said:


> Dang, that's a huge negative on the uDac for me considering that I was planning to use it with an external amp (M-Stage/Asgard).
> I guess I'm sold on the Musiland 02 US (or maybe save up for a Cube Dac?)


 

 Tell me about it. I just started saving up for a GOOD ($800+ range) dac, and was hoping to get by on this for a while! Do you happen to know if the uDac-2 has line outs?
   
  -Daniel


----------



## dlaloum

Don't sweat it
   
  even a DAC has an amp stage driving the line out - the difference is that the volume is fixed within the circuit - so you can't change it.
   
  With a DAC the circuit has been optimised for a line output (and line level voltage!) feeding into a line input impedance.... so there's no thinking and fussing involved.
   
  Another simple alternative - buy a 12db line level attenuator - 12db will divide the voltage by 4 - so 2V becomes 0.5V - this brings you back into standard Line level domain areas - running a little hot - but a lot of CD players and DAC's run at that level.
   
  You can pick up attenuators at http://store.hlabs.com/pk4/store.pl?section=11 or at http://cgi.ebay.com.au/RCA-skts-RCA-plugs-attenuator-12dB-most-amps-/380271519293?pt=UK_Computing_CablesConnectors_RL&hash=item5889f2e63d#ht_500wt_922
   
  I have products from both of these companies and can recommend them both. (I'm using the harrison labs low pass filter, and the ebay 12db attenuator)
   
  With a 12db attenuator, you just set the volume at 75% setting (always best not to drive an amp at its max...) and you should be at normal line level or close enough that things will run well.


----------



## TheMaestro335

Thanks guy's
  I will look into purchasing a new op amp.


----------



## aspenx

Quote: 





joethearachnid said:


> Dang, that's a huge negative on the uDac for me considering that I was planning to use it with an external amp (M-Stage/Asgard).
> I guess I'm sold on the Musiland 02 US (or maybe save up for a Cube Dac?)


 


  Line out of the MM02US goes through a OP275G opamp stage. As dlaloum has already mentioned, signals from DAC outputs are all inadvertently amplified for the purpose of transmission.


----------



## dlaloum

Quote: 





aspenx said:


> Line out of the MM02US goes through a OP275G opamp stage. As dlaloum has already mentioned, signals from DAC outputs are all inadvertently amplified for the purpose of transmission.


 
   
  Well - not inadvertently - I don't believe most of the DAC chips provide an appropriate Line Output voltage, nor are they designed for driving interconnects etc... - so you need to have an audio amplifier stage of some sort designed to do the job - that then drives the RCA outputs.... just the nature of the beasts!
   
  That's why there are a plethora of threads talking about opamp rolling on dacs - its not the DAC that's being varied, its the analogue amp stage after the DAC - and the quality of that stage is often more of a determinant of the end sound quality than the DAC itself. (this statement is debatable of course)
   
  So ALL DAC's include and amplifier - in the case of the uDac the amp has a variable gain (volume knob) - so you can adjust it - that is a bonus!
   
  Not a thing negative about that!
   
  The difficulty and complexity happens when you ask the question "what if I want it to feed a Headphone amp" - trouble is you don't know the headphone amps ideal input signal, and even if you did, you don't know what volume knob position will give you a particular output level (that's why pro gear has meters.... they're not there just for the flashing lights and moving needles).
   
  With non variable outputs you can read the specs and match output to input.... here all we can do is use a known peak signal, and try to measure it, or use the maximum output level (in the manufacturer specs) - and attenuate it by a known amount to match the desired line level. (Which is what I suggested with the 12db attenuators, which would match the manufacturer spec to provide the desired output).
   
  This is all assuming you are a perfectionist - otherwise turn the DAC down to somewhere between 20% and 50% - adjust by ear from there - or just use it. Most of the circuits have plenty of headroom - so this rough approach will usually work well.
   
  If you have it too low, you may raise the noise floor marginally.... if you have it too high you may trigger clipping distortion on peaks (much nastier than a slightly higher noise floor)
   
  Or plug the output into something with know calibrated meters - work out the equivalent scale and turn it down to the desired level.
   
  As an example - my M-Audio 2496 sound card has 0db ADC input set at 2V p-p - so I could feed it via the uDac, and adjust the uDac until a 0db output signal reads around -15db - this calculates out at around 300mV to 350mV.
   
  If your PC has a sound card, and you know what it's input sensitivity is, then you can use the same method (as long as the software provide calibrated meters), - if the PC's input sensitivity is already at Line level (ie where you want to get to) then just start at very low volume and raise it until it just reaches 0db. 
   
  Once measured - you now where you need to set your volume knob for best results! (well at least for industry standard results)
   
  The other thing is of course that depending on the circuit designs, some respond better to a "hot" signal, and others do not - you can only find that out by experimenting. If your rig is such that it improves with a Hot signal - then you have a good tweak which is easy to implement as all you need is your volume knob!
   
  This is NOT rocket science - as a rule of thumb 6db is a doubling or halving of voltage - and almost everyone has a sound card, for which you can usually find the ADC input peak voltage....


----------



## project86

The +4dBu and -10dBV values are fairly old, and originated from the broadcast market back in the day. In the late 80's and early 90's, it became more common to use RCA connections for audio/video rather than just the old coaxial aerial connection (think VCR). As stereo RCA became the standard connection for audio even in video oriented applications,and higher quality sources became more common (stereo VCR, LaserDisc, CD, etc), designers saw the benefit of increased output levels to achieve a higher dynamic range. This was probably partially borrowed from the SCART standard in Europe, which uses the same 2 Vrms output.
   
  Sorry for the history lesson, but I didn't really think that the wikipedia blurb was very accurate.
   
  I would just run the uDac at full volume and use the M-Stage for volume control. Just to ensure I'm not giving bad advice, I double checked a few familiar devices. All of these claim a 2 Vrms output for their unbalanced RCA outs:
   
  Benchmark DAC-1 USB
  Matrix Mini-I and Cube
  All Firestone Audio DACs
  Ayre QB-9
  StyleAudio Topaz, Carat, Peridot
  Twisted Pear Audio Buffalo32 (standard configuration, output can be reduced if needed)
  All current McIntosh gear on their website
  All current Rotel players on their website
  NAD Master Series M5
  Manley Wave DAC
  All current Onix Audio CD players as well as their DAC
  AQVOX USB2 DAC
   
  While looking this up I noticed that in most of the cases where output is not 2 Vrms, it is actually a bit MORE than that. You do still see other values out there, but they are generally between 1 and 2. I did not see any <1 values for any newer products at all, unless you count the variable value on something that functions as a pre-amp.


----------



## JoetheArachnid

Well I guess that's more reassuring. Just to clarify I'm not annoyed by the fact that the signal is amped to line level (kinda necessary, really 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





) but it was more the fact that that signal is being put through a pot or volume control chip that could potentially degrade the sound. I don't really see the point of that for an output almost everyone would want to use as a line out. I guess it's not so much of an issue with the uDac2 now that they've fixed the awful old pot.


----------



## ninjikiran

The maverick dac sounds fine with the matrix, and has a volume control bypass.
   
  It does have a small gain stage but its insignificant in terms of volume modulation.  And since the matrix is your somewhat transparent device you can mess around with tubes if you wanted to on the mav or just use the solid state output.  Not really hawking it because I have it, but for the price and quality its well worth it.


----------



## dpump

I have an M-Stage V2 for sale in the amplification forum if anyone is interested.


----------



## Elar

I received my unit yesterday, 10 days after I ordered it (time may vary I guess, depending on customs, local posts delay). I bought it from *ns_fm_transmitter*, he was very helpful (writing a lower price for the customs, 50 euro, and sending me the tracking number as soon as he sent the package) and responsive to my questions, answered to both my messages in time. The unit was packaged extremely well and arrived in perfect condition. He gives for free a (tiny) HLLY Tamp-20 tripath amp, but I haven't tried it yet as I don't have handy a 12v power converter.
   
   
  About the M-Stage performance, it sounds great with my HD650. The first thing I noticed is how tireless for my ear has become listening for many hours music. I have change gain to 18db. I am new in here, so I really don't know how to go about mids, low and highs yet. I may come back later with that. The only thing I expected to get much better is the soundstage. I was hoping that it would become much "bigger" with the M-Stage. With time it may get better also, who knows. Changing the opamp may bring more of it, witch one do you suggest that I try to that effect?


----------



## AlfBaxter

Definitely the OPA627, preferably in class-a. The first thing I noticed when I changed the stock opamp for the 627 was how much more spacious everything sounded, and more 3-D.


----------



## Elar

Thanks, I think I'll give them a try. I don't have any diy skills myself, but if I have the right components I may go to a audio shop or something and have them put it together. Any idea how much that will cost me and where to get those components here in Europe? A good price would be great, as buying HD650, V-Dac and M-Stage the last months has left me with no more money to spend for audio.


----------



## Balmoral

Quote: 





> The first thing I noticed when I changed the stock opamp for the 627 was how much more spacious everything sounded, and more 3-D.


 
  Makes me even more anxious to receive my chip from Tam!


----------



## AlfBaxter

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *Elar* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> 
> 
> ...












 I recommend here: http://cimarrontechnology.com. You can order the class-A mod from coolfungadget, if you want that too.


----------



## BmWr75

Your link isn't working for me.


----------



## Jibbie

I'll be getting a Beyerdynamic DT990/600ohm soon, and I was curious as to what gain setting to use once it arrives.  Is 18db enough? Or do I need to push the Matrix up to its 20db gain?
   
  Thanks for any help.


----------



## Sganzerla

Jibbie, it is better to test it yourself - it is done in 10 seconds.
   
   By the way, I was using 10dB for my DT880 / 600 with LM4562 2.7k - looks like it sounded better at this gain (less muddy).
   
   But after changing the OPA to Earth last night, I tried the other settings and I think it sounds better at 20dB - more open and with better soundstage. I don't know if this is in my mind or if it makes sense hearing some difference in sound between those settings, if this is the case I think I'll have to rewrite the brief comparison I made some pages ago between LM4562 and OPA Earth.


----------



## svfoo123

Should one turn off the Matrix when changing the gain settings?


----------



## JoetheArachnid

Quote: 





svfoo123 said:


> Should one turn off the Matrix when changing the gain settings?


 

 Probably a good plan, although really it shouldn't make any difference. You're already turning the amp upside-down to get to the dip switches so it's not too much hassle to hit the power switch as well. I could only think that it would cause a problem with a headphone connected and a short-circuit in the amp.


----------



## Elar

What's the right way to turn of M-Stage? I usually close the power switch to the power strip where M-Stage and V-Dac are connected, with the headphones connected. Any problem with that?


----------



## ninjikiran

I have done it while playing music, shouldn't effect the unit but as with all devices the safest thing is to turn it off.


----------



## BmWr75

Quote: 





sganzerla said:


> But after changing the OPA to Earth last night, I tried the other settings and I think it sounds better at 20dB - more open and with better soundstage. I don't know if this is in my mind or if it makes sense hearing some difference in sound between those settings, if this is the case I think I'll have to rewrite the brief comparison I made some pages ago between LM4562 and OPA Earth.


 


  I installing the OPA Earth a simple plug and play swap?  If yes, where do you find this op amp?


----------



## Sganzerla

Yes, but be careful with the little "half moon" mark there, ok?
   
   I bought my *Earth OPA* from *Audio-GD, *you should mention the *DUAL*. Buy the extension lead too, *100mm*, but ask if they can make an *110mm* extension so it leave you a little more room.
   
   One more comment about this OPA, my impression is that Matrix is running hotter than before (LM4562 2.7k)!

  
  Quote:  





> I installing the OPA Earth a simple plug and play swap?  If yes, where do you find this op amp?


----------



## daisangen

Yeah, the casing gets significantly hotter with a discrete in.
   
  I've been considering making some ventilation holes but I don't know if I'll bother, because I haven't experienced any problems or weirdness and I've had the amp on basically 24/7 for a month or so.
   
  Quote: 





sganzerla said:


> Yes, but be careful with the little "half moon" mark there, ok?
> 
> I bought my *Earth OPA* from *Audio-GD, *you should mention the *DUAL*. Buy the extension lead too, *100mm*, but ask if they can make an *110mm* extension so it leave you a little more room.
> 
> One more comment about this OPA, my impression is that Matrix is running hotter than before (LM4562 2.7k)!


----------



## sluker

Quote: 





sganzerla said:


> I bought my *Earth OPA* from *Audio-GD, *you should mention the *DUAL*. Buy the extension lead too, *100mm*, but ask if they can make an *110mm* extension so it leave you a little more room.
> 
> One more comment about this OPA, my impression is that Matrix is running hotter than before (LM4562 2.7k)!


 

 Is Audio GD an online store or a DIY site? Could you provide a link to the product page>
  Thanks.


----------



## Sganzerla

It is a company that makes audio gear.
   Here is - LINK
   
   Daisangen, let me know if your amp dies, as it looks like you are a much hardcore headphone user than me.


----------



## TheMaestro335

Hello All,
  I just installed my

 *OPA627AU with Class A Biasing Mod*   

  It does open up the soundstage! Much better than the stock op amp!No more congestion in the middle of the soundstage. More space around the instruments better detail. My question is about the gain setting. I use the Matrix with 701's and HD 600's, did anybody else change there gain setting to 18 from 10? 18 just seemed to be on the verge of distortion at low levels.


----------



## daisangen

I and from what I've read, most other guys as well, prefer 10 for K70x and HD6xx. Your ears should make the final decision, though.


----------



## Kuze

Quote: 





themaestro335 said:


> Hello All,
> I just installed my
> 
> *OPA627AU with Class A Biasing Mod*
> ...


 
   
  It was discussed earlier, many including myself noticed, truthfully i found it quite odd, why should 18dB and higher sound like crap compaired to 10dB.


----------



## TheMaestro335

Thanks Guy's,
  I only noticed this when I changed the op amp.


----------



## ev01ut10ndt

Have you guys compared the OPA Earth with the OPA627 with class A mod? It certainly makes sense to go with the OPA Earth since the parts price for the 2Xopa627+resistors+adapter is close enough if not going through tam's audio.


----------



## Elar

I may have got the wrong impression from some pictured of OPA Earth I have seen, but will that fit in the M-Stage case? It seems too tall to me to fit.


----------



## ninjikiran

Quote: 





elar said:


> I may have got the wrong impression from some pictured of OPA Earth I have seen, but will that fit in the M-Stage case? It seems to tall to me to fit.


 


  It is too tall, you need the extension cable to rest it on the PCB.


----------



## livewire

Here you go, again. (this was posted earlier in this thread by jtam)


----------



## jtam

Good catch!

  
  Quote: 





livewire said:


> Here you go, again. (this was posted earlier in this thread by jtam)


----------



## ev01ut10ndt

For the one whos did the OPA627+class A mod:
   
  Did you guys find 0db gain to be the most detailed? Using my HD650s, I found that as I increased the gain, the blurrier everything sounded (less detail in treble probably). I'm not wanting any more in volume as its already at 12 oclock for the 0db gain, so I'm happy with it. Only with more dynamic classical recordings does it go up to 3oclock at max.
   
  Did you guys choose 10db and 18db for the stock OPA because of the harsher highs? I found that 18db worked well for the stock OPA. 
   
   
  I forgot to add: I got the 627+mod from Tam's Audio. It was a big difference in terms of dealing with the harsh highs as you guys have mentioned. Enough so that at 18db, it was almost too smooth for me and hence why I dropped it down to 10 or even 0db gain. I found it to be a necessary mod...my Senns are no longer grados but senns as before.


----------



## TheMaestro335

Hello I purchased the upgrade from Tam's audio. I cannot figure out what gain setting is the best. I use 701's and HD600's. I have the setting at 10db, but I think it sounds like it is on the verge of distortion? 18 is nice but as you stated it is not as detailed. Maybe I should try 0db?


----------



## ninjikiran

Quote: 





themaestro335 said:


> Hello I purchased the upgrade from Tam's audio. I cannot figure out what gain setting is the best. I use 701's and HD600's. I have the setting at 10db, but I think it sounds like it is on the verge of distortion? 18 is nice but as you stated it is not as detailed. Maybe I should try 0db?


 

  
  Distortion? I don't get any of that with my 702's @ 10 gain.  0 gain is ok, but sounds a bit weaker and might not be pushing enough power as some songs(very small %) actually take it near the 100% mark.  It could be placebo or not tuning the knob properly but there seems to be less impact @ 0 gain.  As in more thud than boom~
   
  That being said ignore my perceptions of 0 gain and try it yourself going in blank slate.  It might work perfectly for you~  I would still be worried about distortion though since there shouldn't be any unless your songs are mastered improperly or have levels of compression I haven't seen since the beginning of MP3's.  It could be your headphones(did you blow out both drivers by playing way too loud??) or the amp itself.  Hell it could even be something as simple as a faulty opamp.  Perhaps you should buy a new one and see what happens.  Would be best if you buy one thats not the same as the one inside the unit in that case if you still hear any distortion at least you have a spare opamp thats different 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## sunneebear

With the few mentions of distortion at higher gain, could it be the source.


----------



## dlaloum

Given the way the system works, my suspicion would be that at a certain level of gain we are starting to creep out of class A mode and back into class AB mode.
   
  If you are already running in AB - as in when the unit is in stock configuration - there would not be an audible threshold of change.... but with Class A on OPA627, as we drop back to AB mode the difference is much more obvious...
   
  Just a guess - some work with multimeter/CRO would be required to confirm it...


----------



## francisdemarte

Keep in mind also that depending on your opamp, distortion can also be caused by having too LOW a gain. Some opamps require a minimum level of gain to work properly, they are not unity gain stable. Consult the opamp's datasheet to see if they require min. gain.
   
  If you roll opamps, I suggest keeping a minimum gain of 10.


----------



## Elar

Quote: 





dlaloum said:


> Given the way the system works, my suspicion would be that at a *certain level of gain* we are starting to creep out of class A mode and back into class AB mode.
> 
> If you are already running in AB - as in when the unit is in stock configuration - there would not be an audible threshold of change.... but with Class A on OPA627, as we drop back to AB mode the difference is much more obvious...
> 
> Just a guess - some work with multimeter/CRO would be required to confirm it...


 

 What gain do you personally suggest that I use if I go for class A? I am planning to do so later on, after I get a good picture of M-Stage's signature. Atm I am using 10 gain and have the volume usually at 12 o'clock. After listening the amp for some time, I would say that what I would like to improve in it is the soundstage. I have read that some people want to bring the "image" forward, but I want the opposite, especially in some particular recordings I would like the singer to be a little bit further away from me, sometimes it feels that we are so close that I can feel his/her breath in my face. But then again some live recordings I have have  huge soundstage, so maybe it depends on the recordings.


----------



## AlfBaxter

Quote: 





dlaloum said:


> Given the way the system works, my suspicion would be that at a certain level of gain we are starting to creep out of class A mode and back into class AB mode.
> 
> If you are already running in AB - as in when the unit is in stock configuration - there would not be an audible threshold of change.... but with Class A on OPA627, as we drop back to AB mode the difference is much more obvious...
> 
> Just a guess - some work with multimeter/CRO would be required to confirm it...


 




  Quote: 





elar said:


> What gain do you personally suggest that I use if I go for class A? I am planning to do so later on, after I get a good picture of M-Stage's signature. Atm I am using 10 gain and have the volume usually at 12 o'clock. After listening the amp for some time, I would say that what I would like to improve in it is the soundstage. I have read that some people want to bring the "image" forward, but I want the opposite, especially in some particular recordings I would like the singer to be a little bit further away from me, sometimes it feels that we are so close that I can feel his/her breath in my face. But then again some live recordings I have have  huge soundstage, so maybe it depends on the recordings.


 

 See dlaloum's post on p.75. There he reports that several opamps, including OPA627, have odd high frequency spikes at 0dB gain, which are smoothed out at higher gains. If you want a more recessed sound, with deeper soundstage, you might well like the OPA627 not in class-a. Although it is hard to imagine you won't prefer it in class-a once you try it!
   
  @dlaloum: are you suggesting that above a certain gain level, the opamps are no longer in class-a? If that's true, then 10dB would be the ideal setting, as many seem to have discovered. The extra detail that some claim to perceive at 0dB would be the HF distortion you found in your RMAA analysis.
   
  For my part, I find the Matrix (OPA627, class-a) fatiguing and a little harsh at 0dB, much smoother at 10dB gain. Distortion of existing high frequencies can sometimes sound like additional detail, but it's still bad.


----------



## ninjikiran

My opamp is running class A @ 10gain as well though so its something in his chain more than likely. 
  
  Quote: 





dlaloum said:


> Given the way the system works, my suspicion would be that at a certain level of gain we are starting to creep out of class A mode and back into class AB mode.
> 
> If you are already running in AB - as in when the unit is in stock configuration - there would not be an audible threshold of change.... but with Class A on OPA627, as we drop back to AB mode the difference is much more obvious...
> 
> Just a guess - some work with multimeter/CRO would be required to confirm it...


----------



## dlaloum

Quote: 





alfbaxter said:


> @dlaloum: are you suggesting that above a certain gain level, the opamps are no longer in class-a? If that's true, then 10dB would be the ideal setting, as many seem to have discovered. The extra detail that some claim to perceive at 0dB would be the HF distortion you found in your RMAA analysis.
> 
> For my part, I find the Matrix (OPA627, class-a) fatiguing and a little harsh at 0dB, much smoother at 10dB gain. Distortion of existing high frequencies can sometimes sound like additional detail, but it's still bad.


 
   
  Hmm - my own listening seems to tend towards 10db gain...
   
  My RMAA testing says - definitely NOT 0db gain
   
  This is using my Revox 3100's (DT880/600 OEM circa 1986).
   
  I have been considering trying some tests using my Koss Pro4/x - which at 250ohm requires more current and less voltage.... This means that the system will be further into its class A biased voltages.
   
  With the Revox (and any higher impedance headphones) you need more voltage.... this makes it more likely that you will leave the class A operating voltage range.
   
  If you increase the gain - you increase the end voltage, and are likely to also exit class A mode...
   
  So ...
  1) 0 gain is not great - definitely more grunge/hash.
  2) excess gain is likely to move back into class AB mode (also undesirable)
  3) Increased bias current, will enlarge the class A envelope - in exchange for additional heat
       this may be possible with some opamps and configurations - a side by side adapter could be fitted with a heatsink
       Doesn't look good for top/bottom adapters -as heat dissipation is problematic (anyone want to build some heatpipes?)
       Metal Can opamps may handle this better as they can dissipate heat more effectively
   
  In any case with the JTAM OPA627 module and class A socket - I think 10db is optimal when using my 600ohm HP's.
   
  I haven't had time for more extensive testing (the tests take a LOT of time)... and sometimes I do like to just listen to Music..... oh yeah that's right - that was the whole point of the exercise....


----------



## roob

I've noticed a slight hiss in my amp... Is this normal?


----------



## dlaloum

Quote: 





roob said:


> I've noticed a slight hiss in my amp... Is this normal?


 


  What headphones are you using?


----------



## Jibbie

There could be a hiss if you are using very sensitive headphones and the gain setting is too high.
  Quote: 





roob said:


> I've noticed a slight hiss in my amp... Is this normal?


----------



## XTTX

I had hissing (low level of noise) as well; however, I resolved this by getting an external DAC. Not sure if it was necessarily the DAC that fixed it, but immediately afterwords, the noise was gone.


----------



## roob

I'm using my K701's at 10dB gain. I think the hissing becomes more noticable when the *amp has been on for a while*...
 I'm also using my D4 as DAC aswell as my X-Fi, and switching between the modes/unplugging etc did not remove the hiss.


----------



## nycbone

Is the m-stage lineout signal influenced by the volume control or is it just a loop out? The literature says it can be used as a preamp - just checking.
   
  Thanks.


----------



## JoetheArachnid

Quote: 





nycbone said:


> Is the m-stage lineout signal influenced by the volume control or is it just a loop out? The literature says it can be used as a preamp - just checking.
> 
> Thanks.


 

 Is there actually a point to having an output that isn't a pre-out? If it had a line-out you'd just be paying $250 for a female-female RCA connector. Not trying to be rude, just wondering if there's genuinely any use in this. With DACs/transports I understand; amps... not so much
  To answer your question, yes it's a preout. Project86 mentioned its use as a preamp for his speakers in his review.


----------



## nycbone




----------



## nycbone




----------



## Elar

A few questions about some things that are not that clear about opamp and the class A mod. About opamps, as I understand it, if they are dual I can just remove the existing one and insert another 8-DIP opamp. If they are single then I need this BrownDog single-to-dual opamp adapter. Questions:
   
  1. Is there any other similar (or better) adapter available from other sellers (Digi-Key, Farnell, Mouser, Newark). I am asking because I want to make one big order with all the opamps and other stuff that I need.
   
  2. Should I solder to that adapter two 8-pin DIP socket (like this or this) and then mount to each one single opamp (like OPA627)? Or should I solder directly to that adapter the two single opamps, and if yes, what type of opamps should I buy for that (are they called soic?)?
   
  With class A mod things are even more complicated for me. First of all, from what I read in this article, there are different ways to make an opamp class A. From what I understand, the best method is the third one, the JFET Cascode. I really don't have a clue how all that work (the soldering needed will be done by a friend of mine with better soldering skills that my own, which is none), so if someone can summarize it a bit and point out what component exactly are needed to archive it, that would be great.
   
  With that done, if I use a dual type opamp, I guess the thing to do is to take one 8-pin DIP socket (like the two models I mentioned earlier), and make it class A (I am thinking more about adding resistors here, I don't know if the JFET method works differently). Then putting this socket above the one existing socket in the amp and the opamp in it. Is there any way to avoid using this additional socket (by adding the transistors directly to the amp socket or to the opamp itself)?
   
  If single opamp are used, the question is if the transistors cannot be added to the BrownDog adapter directly, or do they have to go to each socket that will hold each opamp?
   
  Sorry if I don't make too much sense with some of my assumptions, doing my best to understand how these things works. Thanks.


----------



## Mad Max

For two soic8 chips, I recommend these.  Better quality than Cimarron's (not even the gurus like those, lol), or for two dip8 chips just use this.  For only one soic8 opamp on a dip8 adapter, I use iBasso's; these have are cleaner, clearer, more extended, and bassier sound than than number of others on which people often get a dirtier sound and loose or uncontrolled bass with some opamps including 627, 797, and LT1028.
   
  If you can do smd soldering, you have better choices available to you like OPA827, THS4081, or ADA4627-1B, all of which can be ordered as samples.  For OPA627, coolfungadget's offer is probably best, no extra soldering needed unless you intend to bypass the power pins with ceramic and tantalum capacitors or do class A.


----------



## Kuze

Never mind, fixed.


----------



## daisangen

My amp's power led just died on me. I powered it on and noticed the led doesn't light up, yet it plays music.


----------



## ninjikiran

Quote: 





daisangen said:


> My amp's power led just died on me. I powered it on and noticed the led doesn't light up, yet it plays music.


 


  I wish the power LED on mines died as well, the thing is horribly bright.  It might of just burnt out so don't worry it should keep playing at 100% capacity


----------



## mobayrasta

So have we come to a conclusion as to what the best opamp is.? I am currently using an LM4562 biased to class A. Is there anything better. I have a DRAWER full of opamps including the TO99 version of the LM4562. Just curious???


----------



## BournePerfect

OP627 biassed Class A
   
  -Daniel


----------



## dlaloum

Quote: 





mobayrasta said:


> So have we come to a conclusion as to what the best opamp is.? I am currently using an LM4562 biased to class A. Is there anything better. I have a DRAWER full of opamps including the TO99 version of the LM4562. Just curious???


 


  Read majkel's copious postings on listening to opamps.... like many other things in audio every one of them is a compromise in some way, and they have varied strengths and weaknesses....
   
  Which is to say - it is up to you and what you like/dislike.
   
  There is a strong concensus towards the OPA627 in class A - this is where I am at right now too.
   
  I have had a brief listen to many other opamps, and have started a long term extended series of listening tests, hoping to see whether one of the other chips will beat the 627.
   
  The LM4562 especially in TO99 version would be a good thing to try - also you can fit a TO99 heatsink to it. (not a bad idea when running class A!)
   
  With that combo you may even be able to safely push the biasing current further up....
   
  Keep in mind that each time you make a change, you need to listen to it over a period of days and weeks before swapping back - so you acclimatise properly get the ear used to it etc... a quick listen won't really discern some of the fine differences involved.
   
  Also some forms of distortion are not directly "hearable" - but you will find that your ears get tired after a while listening to certain components/chips/configurations - this is almost invariably a sign of an unpleasant distortion that you are not consciously aware of.
   
  Unless that is, you are a fan of heavy metal, or certain types of atonal music either of these played loud can have the same effect... - in other words music of genres that intentionally record what is normally considered distortion and use it as part of the art form. Art it may be, but your ear will still react to it as distortion!


----------



## AlfBaxter

Quote: 





mobayrasta said:


> So have we come to a conclusion as to what the best opamp is.? I am currently using an LM4562 biased to class A. Is there anything better. I have a DRAWER full of opamps including the TO99 version of the LM4562. Just curious???


 


  The LM4562 and OPA627 are pretty much on a par when both are biased into class-a. As others have pointed out, the LM4562 gets warmer when pushed into class-a, and the OPA627 gets brighter, so class-a biasing evens out a lot of the differences between the two. That isn't to say they sound the same in class-a - the LM4562, to my ears, is more revealing in the top end and punchier in the bass, whereas the OPA627 is a little darker and I think that tends to give the impression of added depth in the soundstage. I'm currently on the 4562, and have ordered some 3.3k resistor mods to see what effect a higher biasing current has. My only complaint about the 4562 at the moment is that it is very slightly harsh in the treble for my taste, and hopefully pushing it further into class-a will make that go away.


----------



## svfoo123

I see that the GD-Audio OPA-SUN  and the GD-Audio OPA-MOON  are avaliable from Tam's Audio.
  Has anyone tried these and how do they compare to OPA627AU Class A Biasing Modded ?


----------



## nycbone

I spent most of the day with my new m-stage (arrived in NYC six days after ordering from coolfungadget). It is dead quiet with much better dynamics than my Little Dot 1+. I think it's a good match for the AH-D2000 (0 dB gain setting; no hiss). Listening to my growing solo jazz piano collection will be much more enjoyable with this amp. It's also nice to have a source selector. I do find the diameter of the volume control knob to be too small. Can anyone recommend a replacement knob that has the same diameter (throughout) as the base of the stock knob? If the m-stage proves to be reliable over the next several weeks, I will likely order one for my office.


----------



## clams

[size=medium]Quote: 





svfoo123 said:


> I see that the GD-Audio OPA-SUN and the GD-Audio OPA-MOON are avaliable from Tam's Audio.
> Has anyone tried these and how do they compare to OPA627AU Class A Biasing Modded?




​[/size]

  I use the OPA MOON in the m-stage and I've also tried the class-A mod on the OPA 627. I prefer the moon a lot more than the 627. The instrument separation is better and it has tighter control of bass. Overall its just a better setup than the 627. It is important to note that the MOON is already biased in class A


----------



## proteinpig

Sorry for the double post - I thought my post would get more attention in this thread -
  I got a Matrix M-stage and have been trying it for the past 48 hours with my D2000s. As nycbone says, it was quite a step up in soundstage going from the the Little Dot I+ to the M-stage. However, the bass response has been disappointing to say the least. Though the bass is tight, it lacks punch and definition (compared to the bass from Little Dot I+ which is gorgeous). I tried all the gain settings and settled with 0dB. Am I missing something here? Will replacing the stock opamp improve the bass response? I like warm-sounding amps and the Little Dot I+ was doing it's job perfectly before I succumbed to upgraditis.
  Sorry if this has been answered somewhere else already . The search function didn't help me much


----------



## purrin

Quote: 





proteinpig said:


> Sorry for the double post - I thought my post would get more attention in this thread -
> I got a Matrix M-stage and have been trying it for the past 48 hours with my D2000s. As nycbone says, it was quite a step up in soundstage going from the the Little Dot I+ to the M-stage. However, the bass response has been disappointing to say the least. Though the bass is tight, it lacks punch and definition (compared to the bass from Little Dot I+ which is gorgeous)...


 
   

 [size=medium]You can warm up the amp a little bit and get a LOT more definition with LM4562 with class A adapter. Maybe more punch from a pair of AD797s on a dual to single adapter. Otherwise the M-Stage is not an amp which has a lot of bass punch. There are a few others in this thread that have also commented on this. The M-Stage is a good amp, especially for the price, but the amp's relative lack of bass punch is one of its weaknesses. Being an M-Stage owner myself, I'm just being totally honest.​[/size]


----------



## K3cT

The AD797 is good but I never feel that it's an ideal match with the M-Stage.


----------



## AlfBaxter

Purrin is right, the LM4562 in class-a is pretty good. I can also highly recommend the LME49860 in class-a. To my ears it is similar to the 4562, but warmer, with more bass extension and quite a bit smoother and more refined in the top end (but I have always heard my LM4562 as a little harsh, whereas others don't seem to hear it the same way). I've tried quite a few opamps now, including OPA627in class-a, and I have to say the LME49860 stands out for me as by far the best I have heard, to the point where I may be selling a few class-a biased OPA627 on here pretty soon.
   
  Some will probably think LME49860 is the same opamp as the LM4562, and it may be, but at least in my case there is a clear difference between the two. Audiosector is selling these on his eBay store if anyone is interested in trying one. I'd be interested to hear how others think it compares to the 4562.


----------



## daisangen

Update on this. It is not completely dead; it never lights up when I power the amp but after a few hours, it magically starts working.
   
  Quote: 





daisangen said:


> My amp's power led just died on me. I powered it on and noticed the led doesn't light up, yet it plays music.


----------



## Sganzerla

Let me place some SUBJECTIVE findings. I know there are a lot of variables accounting to this or that, but it may be of help to someone thinking of doing some experiments.
   
  When I first got my Matrix M-Stage I didn't found it to pair very well with my K701, specially because there was no bass. My Millet Starving Student sounded like a better match, more dynamic, organic and relaxed sound, but its stock power cord was much warmer than Matrix one - I found this too late unfortunately, after selling my K701 and MHSS! The level of detail, soundstage, in many other areas Matrix was the clearly winner, but... synergy should not be undervalued.
   
  After that I tried some opamps, LM4562, LME49860 and the stock OPA2134 all using 10dB setting, the one I tought was better at this time. Then I tried the class A biasing (3.3k) and found the LM4562 better, specially for dynamics and extension on both extremes. By the way, my LM4562 has resistors on opamp, and both OPA2134 and LME49860 were biased via resistors on the adapter. I tried right after those opamps the Earth HDAM from Audio-GD and found it had stronger bass, better mids and much more natural sound than any other OPA I tried before (but it has less soundstage too).
   
  After some days, I don't know why, but I tried 20dB setting to see what happens and I found a rather different sound with these settings, the changes were very obvious with class A biased OPAs, much stronger bass and pronunced mids (something my DT880/600 needs) with Earth OPA. I changed my DIY power cords (tried a mix of 3 different connectors in 2 different cables and mixed the combinations between DAC and this AMP) and found again that an error in the combination was sufficient to destroy the sound of my system. Gold is the key word for me at this moment - lush beautiful natural 3D sound.
   
  Today after reading some comments I tried again OPA Earth, LM4562(3.3k) and LME49860(3.3k on adapter). Both LM4562 and LME49860 sound similar, but LM49860 sounds a little fuller with less highs extension, decay and a little more congested mids. LM4562 still has wider soundstage, is faster, has more air between instruments too, sounds ligther and smoother in a good way, I have problems finding words for its differences. Earth still have the strongest bass, dynamics and details for my ears and is still my standard, at least for now. 
   
  By the way, soon I may be trying to add resistors directly to LME49860 to see if these differences maintain.


----------



## proteinpig

Quote: 





purrin said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks Purrin.
  I think I'll try Class A modded LM4562. Can someone suggest a good place to get this? I am not a big DIYer.


----------



## lyramax

Quote: 





svfoo123 said:


> I see that the GD-Audio OPA-SUN  and the GD-Audio OPA-MOON  are avaliable from Tam's Audio.
> ...


 
  Does Tam's Audio provide or sell the 100mm extension "cable" (http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/diy/OPA/lead.jpg)?


----------



## jtam

lyramax said:


> Does Tam's Audio provide or sell the 100mm extension "cable" (http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/diy/OPA/lead.jpg)?







Positive.


----------



## lyramax

Quote: 





jtam said:


> Positive.


 

 Is the cable included with HDAM, or optional with extra $ charge?


----------



## jtam

Included.

  
  Quote: 





lyramax said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## avexdevil

will the m-stage be able to drive say an audioengine 5? as far as i can tell from reading the previous posts, i'll only run into problems running passive speakers, in which case the audioengines and most 2.0 bookshelf monitors out there should be able to have the m-stage as a pre-amp?


----------



## Mad Max

Totally.  The M-Stage will be great with powered speakers.


----------



## Sganzerla

Would you think is worth to change the IEC inlet of this product? I was thinking of adding something like Furutech FI-10 Rhodium, the prices aren't that high, but I don't know how much easy would it be to change. Any toughts on this?


----------



## ninjikiran

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, its just an outlet.  Stock outlet does its job just fine.
  Quote: 





sganzerla said:


> Would you think is worth to change the IEC inlet of this product? I was thinking of adding something like Furutech FI-10 Rhodium, the prices aren't that high, but I don't know how much easy would it be to change. Any toughts on this?


----------



## JoetheArachnid

Quote: 





sganzerla said:


> Would you think is worth to change the IEC inlet of this product? I was thinking of adding something like Furutech FI-10 Rhodium, the prices aren't that high, but I don't know how much easy would it be to change. Any toughts on this?


 

 How much do you WANT it to get better? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  I'd say it's probably not worth it. The wiring could get messy (hence losing any possible benefit of a better connector) and also if you look the IEC connector incorporates the power switch on the back as well - you'd have find a socket with a switch, or replace both.


----------



## ninjikiran

Better off replacing parts on the board itself like capacitors.
  
  Quote: 





joethearachnid said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Sganzerla

I looked the IEC but couldn't see the on/off switch is the same part, so thanks for the info.
   Recently I made my power cords, trying some different plugs (gold, gold+rhodium,silver+rhodium) and found impressive sound differences, so I tought for a brief moment something that should be easily replaced could be interesting to try.


----------



## ForeverCalzone

can the m stage drive hd600/hd650's properly? I've heard the hd600/650 benefit more from a tube amp, is that true?


----------



## Balmoral

Dunno about the tube amp as I've never had one, but I can tell you the 650s sound great with the M-Stage and it drives them to louder levels than I'd want to listen to.


----------



## avexdevil

Quote: 





mad max said:


> Totally.  The M-Stage will be great with powered speakers.


 

 sorry im a big noob at this things. say i use the rca out on my m-stage to my audioengine speakers, can i use it as a headphone amp simultaneously? or does it only function as either a headphone amp/pre-amp at any one time?
   
  i know i'm getting ahead of myself here, but how easy is it to mod the m-stage with the opa earth? Please understand i'm new to this whole amp modding scene in general. Also i've seen OPA earth for specfic amps (more commonly those intended for the audio gd compass dac) and was wondering if its compatible with the m-stage? Are the OPA earth one and the same?
   
  Is soldering required for installation?


----------



## ninjikiran

Plug'n'Play, no soldering required.
   
  I can't answer the pre-out question though, never tried it.  I doubt it mutes the RCA outputs though if headphones are in.
  Quote: 





avexdevil said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





avexdevil said:


> sorry im a big noob at this things. say i use the rca out on my m-stage to my audioengine speakers, can i use it as a headphone amp simultaneously? or does it only function as either a headphone amp/pre-amp at any one time?
> 
> i know i'm getting ahead of myself here, but how easy is it to mod the m-stage with the opa earth? Please understand i'm new to this whole amp modding scene in general. Also i've seen OPA earth for specfic amps (more commonly those intended for the audio gd compass dac) and was wondering if its compatible with the m-stage? Are the OPA earth one and the same?
> 
> Is soldering required for installation?


 

 Pre-amp output is always active.  No soldering required.  =]
  You will need a regular pair of RCA interconnects, I assume.  Some powered monitors require RCA to mono 1/4" cables.
   
  OPA Earth sounds even better in the M-Stage than in the Compass.  PM me if you want my Earth opamp, but you will need to contact audio-gd for an extension cable since the two capacitors closest to the opamp socket are too close and get in the way of such a bulky opamp.


----------



## purrin

Quote: 





forevercalzone said:


> can the m stage drive hd600/hd650's properly? I've heard the hd600/650 benefit more from a tube amp, is that true?


 

 LOL, all headphones (except maybe the Denons IMO) benefit more from tubes! 
   
  On a more serious note, the HD650/600 need a lot of juice and bass control, which happen to be some of the M-Stage's stronger attributes. Note however that for the most part, tubes <> bass control. I like tubes for midrange sweetness, harmonic richness, and smooth treble - and I insist on tube implementations that DON"T have flabby bass and excessive treble roll-off.


----------



## sluker

Quote: 





purrin said:


> " I insist on tube implementations that DON"T have flabby bass and excessive treble roll-off."


 

 Please clarify


----------



## purrin

[size=medium] Quote: 





sluker said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> purrin said:
> ...



[/size]

 [size=medium] 
 Best by examples:[/size]
 [size=medium]  [/size]
 [size=medium]
 A little over 10 years ago, I was in the market for a CD Player / DAC. I had a lot of vinyl (and actually still do), so I was looking for a digital setup that had analog qualities. I auditioned a tubed California Audio Labs DAC (the one with a tube). I don't remember the model, but it was, to me at least, one of the worse sounding piece-of-scrap DACs I had ever heard. Talking about "tubey"- this DAC had way over-bloated ill-defined slow slow bass, a lot of treble roll-off, and maybe, just maybe a smidgen of midrange goodness (probably giving it too much credit.) Basically it had all the bad qualities of digital back then (poor resolution) and all the bad qualities of an affordable mid-fi vinyl rig (bloated ill defined bass, poor treble extension). I ended up bringing a Rega Planet (which was a decent SS player back then) home with me, which finally died when my one year old shoved a carrot into it last year.
 I replaced Sovtek tubes in my Melos with EH Gold Pins (which are known to have an articulate sound). The stock Sovteks maybe slam a wee bit more (it's debatable), but their bass is definitely less defined and controlled. Also the Sovteks seemed to have an earlier treble roll-off and sounded less clear throughout the entire frequency band - although the overall Sovtek sound was warmer. I basically wanted my Melos to have a more controlled, cleaner, and more detailed sound.
[/size] [size=medium]  [/size]
 [size=medium] In other words, I like tube implementations that sound more like solid-state - if that makes any sense. Most reputable tube stuff sold today is pretty much like this (decent bass control vs. flabby bass, decent treble extension vs. noticeable treble roll-off) but there are a few exceptions.[/size]
 [size=medium]  [/size]
 [size=medium] This is why I feel that the Denon D2/5/7000s don't work best with tubes. For a given price range, _tubes _are never going to have the kind of vice-grip control over the bass as solid-state. The Denons have slowish, albiet romantic bass, and a LOT of it too! Which on this thought - I wished I had never sold my D5000s as I would have loved to have heard them with the M-Stage.[/size]​


----------



## avexdevil

Quote: 





mad max said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 hmm, so it's as simple as buying the opamp, fitting it away from the capacitors and connecting it via an extension cable? Someone posted a link to the lovely cube thread here and that got me to consider that as a cheaper alternative for similar performance (i've been quoted $240usd incl. opa 627 installed and assembled). However, i prefer the 2x line in on the matrix so i can switch sources between my computer and ps3 on the fly. However, it seems that in order to install the opa earth on the lovely cube, 2 capacitors have to be removed and replaced elsewhere down the pcb, is that applicable to the matrix m-stage as well, afaik they share the same design.


----------



## zibra

Anyone tried using AD8599 on DIP8 for matrix? I was told that could be very good combination instead of stock opamp. Im still waiting for matrix


----------



## sluker

Quote: 





purrin said:


> [size=medium] Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks that helped me understand.
   In particular your comment regarding the Denon's and tubes. 
  Although I do not have any high end tube gear by a long shot, I own a MiniWatt with a headphone adapter and a LD MKIII (I can roll tubes between the two but have only tried the western Electric's and some NOS Russian tubes), both of these amps give my D5000's the bloated base effect you describe.  I have been trying to find a good match for my 701's and bought the Matrix for that reason, however I must say there is only a slight difference between the matrix and the MiniWatt in that the Matrix gives it a slightly deeper soundstage. However I do not think the Matrix is a good match for the D5000's since it also amps up the base which the D5000 does not need. So far I find the D5000's are best with the ALO rx and my Meir Head Five.
  I am keeping an eye out for a good deal on the D7000 as I think it would pair well with the Matrix.


----------



## aspenx

avexdevil said:


> However, it seems that in order to install the opa earth on the lovely cube, 2 capacitors have to be removed and replaced elsewhere down the pcb, is that applicable to the matrix m-stage as well, afaik they share the same design.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## avexdevil

so either way, i'll have to remove capacitors and and replace them? Because it seems the first method you mentioned, aka as the matrix mstage method looks to be more straightforward, it simply looks like an empty space on the pcb no one is utilising so no capacitors need to be removed then replaced, am I understanding it wrong?
  
  Quote: 





aspenx said:


>


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





zibra said:


> Anyone tried using AD8599 on DIP8 for matrix? I was told that could be very good combination instead of stock opamp. Im still waiting for matrix


 

 I have a pair of 8597 (mono 8599) and found it too artificial sounding for my tastes.  Bass is too forward as well, otherwise it is pretty good overall but the opamp is unstable and the circuit needs to be accommodated for it.  I intend to adapt the circuit for 4627-1, but I lack the money at the moment to do it.  =(
  ADA4627-1, AD797, and most other high-speed opamps generally run unstable, though I'm not sure about OPA627 class A since I don't have a module.  Charminbaer noticed and is working with AD797.
   

  
  Quote: 





avexdevil said:


> so either way, i'll have to remove capacitors and and replace them? Because it seems the first method you mentioned, aka as the matrix mstage method looks to be more straightforward, it simply looks like an empty space on the pcb no one is utilising so no capacitors need to be removed then replaced, am I understanding it wrong?


 

 I think it is supposed to be "re-positioned" rather than replaced.  You always want those extensions to be as short as possible.  The ideal thing to do is to solder in the opamp in place of the opamp socket altogether, but that bulky opamp is too big.  The very last thing you want to do is add long extensions and place the opamp next to the transformer, lol.  I think the Lovely Cube seller's method is best and add something to hold the opamp above the pcb a bit without it resting right on those resistors and other components.


----------



## aspenx

Quote: 





avexdevil said:


> so either way, i'll have to remove capacitors and and replace them? Because it seems the first method you mentioned, aka as the matrix mstage method looks to be more straightforward, it simply looks like an empty space on the pcb no one is utilising so no capacitors need to be removed then replaced, am I understanding it wrong?
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


 


 What Mad Max said. To add on, placing the discrete opamp near the transformer isn't a great idea in my opinion. Noise, heat and whatever.
   
  I think what the Lovely Cube seller does is to leave the leads of the capacitors longer. This of course also introduces its own set of problems...
   
  Pick your poison. Both work anyways. Whether there are any detectable sonic differences between the 2 solutions will depend on you.


----------



## avexdevil

or i could settle with the dual opa627 and be done with it . decisions, decisions. i guess i could get the opa earth and some cables in case i decide to swap them out in the future.


----------



## Mad Max

lol
  If you want to upgrade over the Earth OPA with a better "discrete" opamp, grab a dexa.


----------



## aspenx

Quote: 





mad max said:


> lol
> If you want to upgrade over the Earth OPA with a better "discrete" opamp, grab a dexa.


 


 Yikes. Is that in Euros? It looks aesthetically better than the Audio-Gd HDAMs to me. Hmm...


----------



## Sganzerla

Who's gonna try first?


----------



## Mad Max

If you want to go full discrete, should've probably gotten a KICAS instead and replace its wallwart with a real nice DPS.  It probably wouldn't be as good as stock M-Stage, though.
  Or some fully-discrete DIY amp pre-built by someone.


----------



## singh

the price is of just one opamp or a matched pair ..!?  
  The burson audio opamps are also said to be good ! but the price is too high .. am getting those !


----------



## lengbibi

I got received my opa627 from coolfungadget and i swopped it with the stock opa2134. Changes are great, but on the bad side. It sounds very congested and more on the face feeling. I'm going back to stock op-amps


----------



## Mad Max

Try TLE2082ACP.


----------



## drews

You could order a pair of opa627 and an adapter (I did)...  I'd be very surprised if you received actual opa627 chips from him...


----------



## AlfBaxter

Quote: 





lengbibi said:


> I got received my opa627 from coolfungadget and i swopped it with the stock opa2134. Changes are great, but on the bad side. It sounds very congested and more on the face feeling. I'm going back to stock op-amps


 


  I have to say I found the same thing with OPA627 ordered from coolfungadet. However, I also have OPA627 which I ordered from Cimarron and they are much better - very open and clear. This doesn't mean the ones I got from coolfungadget are not genuine, I'm not claiming that. They are on different adapters, and will be from different batches, so there could be other explanations for the differences. But it might be worth buying some from Cimarron as well to test, because the ones I got sound pretty spectacular, and so much better than stock, especially in class-a.


----------



## Deep Funk

This headphone amplifier is on the short list. Is there a difference in V1, V2 and V3 for someone who likes to listen with a K240 DF that is relevant?
   
  I need a headphone amplifier that can power the DF superbly while not torturing the wallet too much.


----------



## Comfortable

I ordered a (Lehmann BLC clone)Lovely Cube kit for $35 on ebay. Only things they're missing are toroidal transformer, opamp, potentiometer, jacks, interconnectors and chassis. This way you could experiment parts, it could potentially beat the original BLC.


----------



## francisdemarte

Keep us posted how your build goes! Good luck!


----------



## avexdevil

just got my m-stage in the post today, it took only 3 days since payment to arrive! Eerily efficient I would say. Woah this amp blew me out of the water, coming from the audinst with a subpar amp, even my untrained ears could tell there was a night and day difference. I'm an amateur so I'll just describe my experience with layman terms. The amp is stock (OPA2134), gain settings are @ 10db and paired with my k701s. the music no longer seems thin and lifeless with an underpowered amp, everything in my music seems to take on some sort of depth and become more enjoyable to listen to.
   
  Especially tracks with acoustic instruments, whistling, and vocal-driven content, the result is amazing. I guess the best way to describe it would be the added 'richness' in my music. i don't know if this would be considered fatigue, but due to this newfound depth, the music seems to hang really heavily on my head now.The music feels like it carries more weight now, at times it even feels like the music is surrounding me because i'm hearing so much more than before. It's a good change nonetheless.
   
  My live electronica music sounds insane now! The imaging is ridiculous, I could easily tell where the audiences are clapping from where the recording source is positioned. This applies to string quartets and orchestral compositions as well. On my previous setup, any instrument that wasn't played on centrestage seemed distant and unrealistic, now I can distinctly tell that a panflute is playing on the top right corner of the auditorium and the clarity is amazing. I ordered the OPA627AU class A bias mod as well, but I'll be using this on stock for the next couple of days before i start opamp rolling. I'm already impressed with what I'n hearing so far!


----------



## ninjikiran

Right now all I am trying to fight is piercing sibilence.  Its natural, but in my setup it can get downright painful which isn't natural at times.  I probably just need a different pair of headphones~  I have been eyeing the LCD-2 but won't be for atleast a year till I have enough money to fund something like that.


----------



## avexdevil

my hands got itchy on the 2nd day of ownership, so i swapped out my opa2134 for the opa627au with the class A biasing mod.
   
  The difference was very subtle initially, in terms of the extra weight it gave my music upon adding the matrix to my audio setup, what I could hear in the first half hour after making the change was negligeable.
   
  I gave it another hour or two of listening, and I'm assuming after the amp was warmed up (literally), the difference became more substantial. Midrange became more forward and vocals are more refined, though at times female voices get a bit too ear piercing (but i found this attribute to go away after prolonged listening). The low end of the sound, i.e. drums became more pronounced too. Punchy but they hit really hard, sometimes overwhelming the rest of the music. Bass has newfound impact, though still not one of the strong suits of the k701, but the difference was fairly obvious when using my m50s, getting significantly more bass rumble through my earpads. All that and I can attest to previous accounts of the OPA627au's improvements (if becoming more forward and losing the laidbackness of the stock matrix is what you prefer) on the m-stage.
   
  I don't know if it's the amp burning in or my ears being attuned to this changes, but now approximately 36hrs of constant listening, I'm satisfied with leaving the opa627au in my mstage for the long run. I might try my OPA2134 with the class A bias mod once I find an adapter for it, the pins are a bit fragile so prying it on and off without one might not be the smartest thing to do...


----------



## zibra

stupid question... how to open matrix?


----------



## JoetheArachnid

Quote: 





zibra said:


> stupid question... how to open matrix?


 

 The main body of the amp in in two halves. Remove the four screws from this top half of the casing (NOT the faceplate) and then you should be able to just lift it off, revealing the insides in all their glory.


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





joethearachnid said:


> ... revealing the insides in all their glory.


 

_LOL!_


----------



## zibra

yeah, wasnt such problem. Just friend of mine scared me he had problems to open it heh. I found ad797 very nice sounding with matrix.
  One thing which pisses me off is that power plug  socket which doesnt fit good to chassis. any advice how to fix it? or is it only my model?


----------



## Kuze

I don't think I'll ever buy another hyped product! this amp has significantly depreciated just over the few months of release, bought it for $260 and now can't even get a resale for $180, even got a low-ball offer for $160... I'm like really?, I'd rather give it away or toss it before ever selling it for peanuts to people who don't want to contribute to the hobby and just sit around waiting like vultures, all it takes is one person to list it at a desperate price before everyone else has to follow. I personally think this amp is worth it, it sounds and looks good, the build quality is up there so i can't really understand why the sudden depreciation, my reasons are more personal and has to do with the situation I'm, even sold the 650's which i really loved, let me hear your theory.


----------



## zibra

If you buy new product you automatically loose 30% of its price. If you want to save money buy sh products I dont know whats your point 
  On other hand maybe you just hit unfortunate time for selling it. I had proposition of selling it here in Poland even for full price, because some ppl are scared to import something from China (long time, tax etc etc.)
   
  Anyone knows/tried LT1028 for Matrix?


----------



## Slaughter

Then post it for free. I sold my sr225 for $135 because of no offers. Deal with it and move on. 





kuze said:


> I don't think I'll ever buy another hyped product! this amp has significantly depreciated just over the few months of release, bought it for $260 and now can't even get a resale for $180, even got a low-ball offer for $160... I'm like really?, I'd rather give it away or toss it before ever selling it for peanuts to people who don't want to contribute to the hobby and just sit around waiting like vultures, all it takes is one person to list it at a desperate price before everyone else has to follow. I personally think this amp is worth it, it sounds and looks good, the build quality is up there so i can't really understand why the sudden depreciation, my reasons are more personal and has to do with the situation I'm, even sold the 650's which i really loved, let me hear your theory.


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





zibra said:


> ...  Anyone knows/tried LT1028 for Matrix?


 

 LT1028 demands -1 gain.  The lowest on the M-Stage is 0.  It is better in DAC LPF or buffer anyway.


----------



## project86

Quote: 





kuze said:


> I don't think I'll ever buy another hyped product! this amp has significantly depreciated just over the few months of release, bought it for $260 and now can't even get a resale for $180, even got a low-ball offer for $160... I'm like really?, I'd rather give it away or toss it before ever selling it for peanuts to people who don't want to contribute to the hobby and just sit around waiting like vultures, all it takes is one person to list it at a desperate price before everyone else has to follow. I personally think this amp is worth it, it sounds and looks good, the build quality is up there so i can't really understand why the sudden depreciation, my reasons are more personal and has to do with the situation I'm, even sold the 650's which i really loved, let me hear your theory.


 

 Maybe try eBay or Audiogon? They generally allow you to get higher prices in my experience. Your situation is not unique though; I was just browing the FS section here and I see an AKG K701 (MSRP $500, new online for $300) going for $175, a pair of JH13s (MSRP $1100) for $700, and a JVC DX1000 (MSRP roughly $1000) for $660, etc. And these are just the current asking prices; they might need to lower them to make the actual sale. Audio gear is almost never a good investment so plan accordingly.


----------



## Kuze

Quote:


zibra said:


> If you buy new product you automatically loose 30% of its price. If you want to save money buy sh products I dont know whats your point
> On other hand maybe you just hit unfortunate time for selling it. I had proposition of selling it here in Poland even for full price, because some ppl are scared to import something from China (long time, tax etc etc.)
> 
> Anyone knows/tried LT1028 for Matrix?


 

 Quote:


slaughter said:


> Then post it for free. I sold my sr225 for $135 because of no offers. Deal with it and move on.


 

 Yes thank you both for the nice cold response, very refreshing, well lesson learned, "Deal with it and move on" surely will.
   
  Quote:


			
				project86 said:
			
		

> /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Maybe try eBay or Audiogon? They generally allow you to get higher prices in my experience. Your situation is not unique though; I was just browing the FS section here and I see an AKG K701 (MSRP $500, new online for $300) going for $175, a pair of JH13s (MSRP $1100) for $700, and a JVC DX1000 (MSRP roughly $1000) for $660, etc. And these are just the current asking prices; they might need to lower them to make the actual sale. Audio gear is almost never a good investment so plan accordingly.


 

 Thanks project, will see, totally understandable though, just didn't expect to see it dip so low.


----------



## zibra

Thanks. I already found ad797 even better at stx buffer than in Matrix. What about AD825, 827, THS4032, AD8022, AD8397, LME49710NA. Those are recommended from one of my friends, but Im not sure if all are ok fro matrix headamp (like LT1028 doesnt)
  Quote: 





mad max said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





zibra said:


> Thanks. I already found ad797 even better at stx buffer than in Matrix. What about AD825, 827, THS4032, AD8022, AD8397, LME49710NA. Those are recommended from one of my friends, but Im not sure if all are ok fro matrix headamp (like LT1028 doesnt)


 
   
  OPA827 is excellent but unstable (as are most of my high-speed opamps in the M-Stage).  LME49710 is too artificial sounding for my tastes and its soundstage, mids, treble, and bass suck bullocks versus LT1363, AD797, and ADA4627-1.  Some people like it anyway.  I've never tried THS4032, I do have THS4081 and it is one of my favorite TI chips.  Never tried AD825.  OPA1611 is also excellent with the best bass before ISL28127.  Once I have some extra money, I plan to mod the amp more to get 4627-1 stable, my favorite opamp.


----------



## rawrster

Quote: 





project86 said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  That's the great part about buying used here. However keep in mind when selling on ebay that you have to pay for listing fees unlike here which may make the net sale price to be similar depending on how much you sell it for. I rarely buy new because of this but I realize that it works both ways. You will suffer a loss if you buy new and plan to sell here since most products have a lower going price than retail.


----------



## lescanard

I'm just posting for 2 reasons:
   
  1 - those who follow this thread - which is slanting to a "now it's time to sell the M-Stage for the next big thing" OR the "the FOTM hype was off and this thing just isn' what I thought it would be" posts...I bought the M-Stage very early on - I'm not a hype freak. This amp is flat out married to my k701s - not even a question. I would sell the k701s if I didn't own the M-Stage. Just saying - they are beautiful together - I've a/b'd against the LD MKIV which I am a HUGE fan of and the M-Stage is the huge winner for the k701s
   
  2 - My one question for M-Stage owners - "IF"? I wanted a slightly warmer presentation with my k701s... I have the class A OPA627 upgrade in - I have some Opamps on hand...incl LT1364, LM4562, and OPA2107. What would you suggest for my k701s - if I favored a bit of a warmer feel?


----------



## Mad Max

Probably OPA627, also OPA1611 (superb).  Also HA3-2525, which can be had as samples from Intersil.
  LM4562 is bright and would probably be fatiguing with K701, I imagine.  LT1364 is also bright and sports a peculiar coloration in this amp.
  To warm up the amp a slight bit, your best bet is to replace the stock caps with warmer-sounding ones.  Opamps will make very little difference in that respect, or it might be enough for you.


----------



## ninjikiran

I see it like this, money is not free....


----------



## Sganzerla

Is there any consensus already of what capacitors one could change for a better sound?
   Something like smoother highs, more articulate bass and mids, instrument separation, etc...?


----------



## zibra

Good question
  I would also ask what opamps do you recommend for matrix, something like AD797 class or better? Any discrete opamps would be good, no matter of size? I rather prefer first option but would like to know possibilites for Matrix without mods


----------



## purrin

Quote: 





sganzerla said:


> Is there any consensus already of what capacitors one could change for a better sound?
> Something like smoother highs, more articulate bass and mids, instrument separation, etc...?


 
   
  Pansonic FMs? Maybe too bright though. Panny FCs? Elna Silmics for smooth? Might need to mix and match for voltage gain and current gain stages. Can't really do much with the existing output transistors - not that they are bad - but there will always be some graininess in the treble.
   
  Only thing I could think of that I'm sure would work are oil-filled caps (e.g. ASC x386s, Obligatos), but those things are so huge that even one of them wouldn't even fit in the case.
   
  A quick and dirty solution would be to bypass the existing caps with a small film cap, e.g. WIMAs. I could only fit 0.01uFs on the bottom of the board, but the mods made a small improvement in all of the aspects that you have mentioned. I did this to the four caps feeding the output transistors. I left the caps feeding the opamp alone - they don't need it as they are already bypassed with 0.022uf film caps.


----------



## purrin

Quote: 





lescanard said:


> 2 - My one question for M-Stage owners - "IF"? I wanted a slightly warmer presentation with my k701s... I have the class A OPA627 upgrade in - I have some Opamps on hand...incl LT1364, LM4562, and OPA2107. What would you suggest for my k701s - if I favored a bit of a warmer feel?


 

 Definitely not OPA2107 = controlled bass and bright. I love using this opamp with an output stage that is slowish and warm.
   
  LM4562? (more it gets pushed into class A, the warmer it sounds). OPA627 pushed into class A sounds brighter. This only applies when using resistor mod on the Matrix. I actually think the LM4562 and OPA627 have a sound balance that converges with light class A biasing.
   
  I disagree with folks who say LM4562 sounds bright. I've had at least a dozen of of those chips (purchased directly from Digikey) that I've modified and sent off to other head-fiers. LM4562 even without class A mod sounds warmer than stock OPA2134 (and I've got a dozens of those sitting around too for other projects). YMMV.
   
  JRC4556? It's warm all right!


----------



## BmWr75

Quote: 





purrin said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Purrin,
   
  When I search Digikey for LM4562 and OPA627, multiple products are returned for each.  Which part #s are correct for the mstage?
   
  Thanks,
  Scott


----------



## purrin

LM4562: Digi-Key Part Number: LM4562NA-ND
   
  OPA627:
  Digi-Key Part Number: OPA627BP-ND (DIP8) -or-
  Digi-Key Part Number: OPA627AU-ND (SMT)
          
  OPA627s will need a appropriate 2x single to dual adapter.  DIP8 will plug into the adapter.  SMT will require soldering (see alternative below).  Here is a single to dual adapter for DIP8:
   
  http://cimarrontechnology.com/single-to-dualop-ampadapter-dipversionpn021001.aspx
  (order with two DIP sockets installed and x2 DIP8 OPA627s) This will be the most flexible plug-n-play solution.
   
  Alternatively for OPA627 try: http://cimarrontechnology.com/single-to-dualop-ampadapterpn020302.aspx
  (order with extended pins, then you can easily solder resistors for class A bias directly on the extended pins over the chips) This would probably be the best sounding solution as it keeps everything in the same package without additional class A piggyback adapters, etc. The distance to the power decoupling caps is critical to opamps. You start putting some distance and extra resistance to the opamps from the socket on the board... not ideal.
   
  I've heard stories about fake chips before, but now* I'm more convinced than ever to order **only **from trusted sources*. If it's too good to be true, it is, e.g. "These are special OPA627s made in a special plant for domestic consumption in _whateverland_ so that's why they are $4 dollars each, etc."  Ya right. I've heard Bernie Madoff can get you 50% returns on your investment consistently year after year - and I'm sure he's got a _special _explanation on how he does it too.


----------



## BmWr75

Purrin,
   
  Thanks for the details on part numbers.  I ordered the OPA627 from China, am surprised to see the US sourced ones cost about 4X-5X more.  Think I'll try the US sourced ones to see if I can hear a difference.
   
  Scott


----------



## avexdevil

Quote: 





lescanard said:


> I'm just posting for 2 reasons:
> 
> 1 - those who follow this thread - which is slanting to a "now it's time to sell the M-Stage for the next big thing" OR the "the FOTM hype was off and this thing just isn' what I thought it would be" posts...I bought the M-Stage very early on - I'm not a hype freak. This amp is flat out married to my k701s - not even a question. I would sell the k701s if I didn't own the M-Stage. Just saying - they are beautiful together - I've a/b'd against the LD MKIV which I am a HUGE fan of and the M-Stage is the huge winner for the k701s
> 
> 2 - My one question for M-Stage owners - "IF"? I wanted a slightly warmer presentation with my k701s... I have the class A OPA627 upgrade in - I have some Opamps on hand...incl LT1364, LM4562, and OPA2107. What would you suggest for my k701s - if I favored a bit of a warmer feel?


 
   
  1. WORD. qft. i had the k701s before and i got the m-stage to compliment it. people who go the other way, amps before headphones will find themselves wanting to try the next best combination and that usually becomes a vicious cycle of neverending upgrades (not to mention incredibly costly). Best you pick a pair of headphones you like, stick with 'em, then get a nice amp to maximise its potential.
   
  2. maybe it's because i own a m50 and several warm presentation iems, I too have the class A opa627 modded in, but the k701 will never sound warm enough for my standards. In fact, I would go as far to say that I only use my k701s for acoustic guitar and pure vocal tracks (I don't listen to much classical unfortunately, just orchestral compositions from movie soundtracks), the k701's intepretation for any other type of music becomes too thin and lifeless for my taste. They are great for movies and relaxation music; only reason why i'm still holding on to them in favour of getting some hd650s.
   
  I'd also be interested to know what OPamps can give the k701 extra warmth/thickness


----------



## purrin

I've got my modified M-Stage for sale if anyone is interested. I figured I'd let people on this thread know because I get questions on and requests for mods from time to time.
   
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/529933/fs-matrix-m-stage-modified
   
  Nothing wrong with it. IMO it's probably the best _entry-level_ amp of this type of design (opamp + diamond buffer) you can buy. I'm just moving up to another league.


----------



## DaEMoNteNTAcLe

anyone knows what caps i can replace the pair near the opamps to make this amp sound darker? mine is elna.
  or should i change the 2 big power caps instead? also elna.
   
  im kinda done playing opamps, and dont want to change them, or topology of the circuit.
  i just need it to be darker sounding overall. im using lovely cube tho, but same mod should affect should apply.


----------



## K3cT

Thanks to my dear friend Mike, I got a M-Stage for a loan and I immediately took it for a ride with the Audez'e LCD2. Plenty of power, no problem for the LCD2 as it is able to drive it quite effortlessly. The M-Stage is no β22 for sure but I still like it. 
   
  Well, after a while I noticed how the sound was a bit too distant with the class A-biased OPA627 so I swapped it with a personal favorite of mine, the cheap-but-amazing-sounding OPA1642. Well, the first thing that I notice is the sound is no longer distant but now a little bit forward, just the way I like it. However, this doesn't do high as well as the OPA627 as for example, cymbals now lack shimmer and air. Overall the sound has become a little bit darker and more forward.


----------



## purrin

Quote:


daemontentacle said:


> anyone knows what caps i can replace the pair near the opamps to make this amp sound darker? mine is elna.
> or should i change the 2 big power caps instead? also elna.
> 
> im kinda done playing opamps, and dont want to change them, or topology of the circuit.
> i just need it to be darker sounding overall. im using lovely cube tho, but same mod should affect should apply.


 

 You can try Silmics, although I don't know if they will actually be more warm than the stock Elnas. I suspect changes to the four medium size caps ~440uF? feeding the output transistors will do more than changes to the opamp caps. You can try increasing the value of the caps for more warmth, but that could slow things down a bit.


----------



## dw1narso

Quote: 





k3ct said:


> Thanks to my dear friend Mike, I got a M-Stage for a loan and I immediately took it for a ride with the Audez'e LCD2. Plenty of power, no problem for the LCD2 as it is able to drive it quite effortlessly. The M-Stage is no β22 for sure but I still like it.
> 
> Well, after a while I noticed how the sound was a bit too distant with the class A-biased OPA627 so I swapped it with a personal favorite of mine, the cheap-but-amazing-sounding OPA1642. Well, the first thing that I notice is the sound is no longer distant but now a little bit forward, just the way I like it. However, this doesn't do high as well as the OPA627 as for example, cymbals now lack shimmer and air. Overall the sound has become a little bit darker and more forward.


 
   
  Brian,
   
  have you play with the gain setting, both with the OPA627 and OPA1642?
   
  Before you, I also borrowed Mike's M-Stage... gain setting definitely affect the sound... for Mike's class A biased OPA2134, I like the highest gain the best...


----------



## lescanard

Quote: 





purrin said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks for the input purrin - I'm going to give the LM4562 class A a whirl I think - I love the 701s - I'm seeking a bit of a better low end (although I'm not a bass head - I enjoy well presented lows) like I hear in my K271s - we'll see.


----------



## ninjikiran

Class A LM4562 work well with the K702's for someone who doesn't really hear a difference in opamps this was the only situation where I DID.  Theres an energy to the warmth with the biases chip.


----------



## singh

As i own , the K702 iam already interested in Mstage. Now i am set to buy the HE6 ,
  so, here is the Question , how much power does the Mstage Put in to 50 Ohm load,  its said that HE6 are Highly unefficient , and require power in watts  ,
  or should i skip it all and buy a speaker amp  ( slightly OT , sorry )


----------



## sunneebear

I think the M Stage will be under power.


----------



## kwang411

I'm just wondering if the M-Stage is actually on the warm side? I've read people saying it being warm and slightly bright, so I'm a bit confused.
  I want to use it to drive my HD800, which I find has too much treble so I want something that can tame it. Right now I'm using LD MK IV SE.
  Thanks!


----------



## svfoo123

I have been using my matrix m stage with the audio gd sun and have great results. The bass is tight and after burn in the sound has cleared up. Is anyone else using this combination?


----------



## Jonasklam

Hi guys. I posted the following in the wrong forum and got no replies so I'm just gonna copy/paste it here.
   
  I'm looking for a M-stage amp and came across this website: http://www.audiophilechina.com/cp-show.asp?C_id=216&S_id2=2&s_id=91
  Have anyone ever heard about or purchased from them before? It seams a little suspicious to me.
   
  Also, as I can understand, there are many different versions of the M-stage. Anybody who knows what the differences are? I donnot have time for searching throu' the long "M-stage Matrix Thread" for the answer


----------



## JoetheArachnid

Quote: 





jonasklam said:


> Hi guys. I posted the following in the wrong forum and got no replies so I'm just gonna copy/paste it here.
> 
> I'm looking for a M-stage amp and came across this website: http://www.audiophilechina.com/cp-show.asp?C_id=216&S_id2=2&s_id=91
> Have anyone ever heard about or purchased from them before? It seams a little suspicious to me.
> ...


 

 Certainly not the shadiest M-Stage dealer I've seen. There are only two versions that I know of - the original with a smaller PCB and a non-encapsulated toroid, and the new one with an encapsulated toroid and a bigger PCB for less wiring. The internal picture on that site and in Project86's original review are the old version. The new version looks sleeker and is possibly a little bit quieter Almost everyone will be selling the new version unless you buy used.


----------



## igotnojob

Quote: 





kwang411 said:


> I'm just wondering if the M-Stage is actually on the warm side? I've read people saying it being warm and slightly bright, so I'm a bit confused.
> I want to use it to drive my HD800, which I find has too much treble so I want something that can tame it. Right now I'm using LD MK IV SE.
> Thanks!


 

 The Matrix M-Stage is my first, and so far only, better amp I have owned. My experience with the M-Stage has been that it is a pretty warm and smooth amp with my HD580 and K701. Not overly warm but a very pleasant coloration. It is noticeably warmer sounding to me than the Yulong D100 amp section or the amp sections in the iBasso D4 or the Audinst HUD-mx1 and that warmness really helps to fill out the sound and make it more robust-sounding - something like filling in the holes in Swiss cheese. I've been A/B'ing the amps on these DAC/Amp combos by themselves and then just through their DAC sections with the Matrix as the amp. So far, the M-Stage has way exceeded my expectations. I was expecting a very subtle change from my other amps and, instead, was pleasantly surprised to find that it really helped with clarity across the frequency range and expanding the soundstage to very noticeable degrees. I should say now that the M-Stage was modded with the OPA627AP with Class-A biasing mod by Tam's Audio prior to shipment. I have never heard the original stock opamp as it was disappointingly not included with my unit.
   
  I must admit I am very curious to try out Meier Audio's StageDAC + Concerto combo to see (and hear) what the crossfeed filter effect is all about. But I have a hard time imagining how anything could really improve over my M-Stage (M-Stage is _that_ impressive to me so far). Hopefully one day I will find out if that combo is a vast improvement. Like I said, I really don't have other higher level amps to compare my M-Stage to yet but that should change sometime this week when I get my new Woo WA2.


----------



## ninjikiran

Cross feed is a degradation in overall SQ, but it makes harsh channel separation causes by headphones to sound more natural.


----------



## igotnojob

Quote: 





ninjikiran said:


> Cross feed is a degradation in overall SQ, but it makes harsh channel separation causes by headphones to sound more natural.


 

 I figured as much as with any other type of DSP introduced to the signal. And although I've never been overly bothered by the harshness of very discrete channel separation, I do wonder if the crossfeed filters will make listening more pleasant or akin to listening from loudspeakers. I understand that this is one of the purposes of crossfeed. And I have a suspicion that most music is mixed with the loudspeaker listener in mind where a certain degree of stereo crossover and harmonic resonance is expected as opposed to the pure 2-channel headphone listener. I wonder if, the crossfeed filter does in fact replicate this loudspeaker experience, it will sound more like the engineer who mixed the audio intended for it to sound.


----------



## ninjikiran

Ive tried many software crossfeed(which can be more robust than hardware crossfeed imo) and nothing can truly replicate loudspeaker listening in terms of that.


----------



## Jonasklam

Quote: 





joethearachnid said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Oh, so i should try and find a new version  - thanks mate! Do you know if there is any noticeble difference in SQ?
  I'm still a little suspicious about the website though, and I think that I would rather find a used one.


----------



## Sganzerla

Strange enough, as I said in your other thread, I bought mine from them and it is indeed the second version (the pictures showed the Matrix v2 at the time too).
   The price was the same on your link, if I remember well.


----------



## Jonasklam

Quote: 





sganzerla said:


> Strange enough, as I said in your other thread, I bought mine from them and it is indeed the second version (the pictures showed the Matrix v2 at the time too).
> The price was the same on your link, if I remember well.


 


  Ok, Thanks mate, much appreciated 
  I feel that it's quite safe to order from them now.


----------



## JoetheArachnid

Quote: 





igotnojob said:


> I must admit I am very curious to try out Meier Audio's StageDAC + Concerto combo to see (and hear) what the crossfeed filter effect is all about.


 

 Just as an FYI, you can build a simple crossfeed for a few pounds/dollars if you want to try out the effect: http://www.rock-grotto.co.uk/crossproject2.htm
  It's simlar if not the same as the one used in the Meier amps (it was designed by Jan Meier) and is very easy to assemble and uses easily available parts. This is that bass boosting version but there's also a flat version around somewhere: http://gilmore2.chem.northwestern.edu/projects/meier_prj.htm


----------



## amcananey

Hey everyone,
   
  I think I'm probably going to buy an M-Stage. Before I do, I was wondering whether anyone here is familiar with the KICAS (or K.I.C.A.S.) or Caliente amps from Purity Audio and can compare them to the M-Stage? I would also be interested in hearing opinions on how the M-Stage compares to one of the Graham Slee amps (Novo, Solo SRGII or Solo Ultra-Linear).
   
  Best regards,
  Adam


----------



## roadcykler

I apologize if this has been covered but 93 pages is a lot to wade through. I have K702's and was wondering what gain settings most others are using? I just got my Matrix yesterday and have it set at 10dB right now. Also, I have it connected directly to my M-Audio 24/96 sound card into one of the inputs and I was wondering if I used the line out to connect to my Logitec, powered computer speakers if that would damage anything in the amp or draw more power than it can supply? I wouldn't be using headphones and the speakers at the same time. Thanks.


----------



## ninjikiran

Speakers powered or not go on the Pre-Amp output on the back of the matrix.  The headphone output would not be optimal but would probably not damage your logitech speakers, but with a pre-amp output and an on/off switch on your speakers why not use the pre outs, just get an RCA ---> 3.5mm converter (or 6.25mm)


----------



## igotnojob

Quote: 





joethearachnid said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  Thanks for the links. They are very helpful for my situation. I must admit I'm not a DIY'er but if I can find someone to make me one, I'll definitely have to have a listen.


----------



## erjifan

10dB is the best gain setting for K702.
  
  Quote: 





roadcykler said:


> I apologize if this has been covered but 93 pages is a lot to wade through. I have K702's and was wondering what gain settings most others are using? I just got my Matrix yesterday and have it set at 10dB right now. Also, I have it connected directly to my M-Audio 24/96 sound card into one of the inputs and I was wondering if I used the line out to connect to my Logitec, powered computer speakers if that would damage anything in the amp or draw more power than it can supply? I wouldn't be using headphones and the speakers at the same time. Thanks.


----------



## roadcykler

That's almost what I did. I have an interconnect that has RCA's on one end and a 1/8 (I think, whatever is the size that fits into most mp3 players) on the other end. Since the connection for the speakers is the same, I have a connector that has two female ends to hook them together. Seems to work pretty well. Thanks for the advice. 
  
  Quote: 





ninjikiran said:


> Speakers powered or not go on the Pre-Amp output on the back of the matrix.  The headphone output would not be optimal but would probably not damage your logitech speakers, but with a pre-amp output and an on/off switch on your speakers why not use the pre outs, just get an RCA ---> 3.5mm converter (or 6.25mm)


----------



## Jibbie

I prefer a gain of 18


----------



## igotnojob

Quote: 





jibbie said:


> I prefer a gain of 18


 

 I agree. 18 sounds better and more dynamic with my K701. I prefer 18 with my HD580 as well.


----------



## Jibbie

My thoughts exactly


----------



## LarsHP

Hi everyone.
   
  I am seriously considering buying the M-Stage - preferably the apparently new second edition.
  Does anyone know if this is true - that there is suppused to be two second editions, the newest having among a few things a thicker casing and total weight of 2 kg instead of 1,5 kg?
   
  I have seen one here at Head-Fi who bought his M-Stage here:
http://www.audiophilechina.com/cp-show.asp?C_id=216&S_id2=2&s_id=91
  Anyone else bought it there - and can verify that this is a serious seller?
   
  One more thing:
  Does anyone know the Matrix company web or e-mail adress?
  If so - please post it here, thanks.


----------



## JoetheArachnid

Again: almost every single dealer selling new will be selling the second version. There is only one updated version - the thicker casing was part of the single upgrade. There probably aren't even that many original-desgin versions in existence, and I doubt that there are many being sold new.
   
  As for Matrix as a company, I couldn't say. coolfungadget (an eBay seller) seems to have some kind of involvement with the designers and is generally considered to be a great person to deal with. If you have any questions, I'd contact him.


----------



## LarsHP

I found the company web adress:
   
  http://www.matrixelectronics.net/


----------



## project86

Quote: 





larshp said:


> Hi everyone.
> 
> I am seriously considering buying the M-Stage - preferably the apparently new second edition.
> Does anyone know if this is true - that there is suppused to be two second editions, the newest having among a few things a thicker casing and total weight of 2 kg instead of 1,5 kg?
> ...


 

 Audiophile China used to be a sponsor here on Headfi, maybe a few years ago. I ordered something from them once and it was fine. I couldn't say if things have changed at all since then, and I don't know why they are no longer sponsoring headfi.
   
  I don't think there are 2 new versions with different specs. I assume it is a matter of some places listing the gross weight and other listing the net weight (with and without packaging). I don't know why some would list a different thickness of the case though. Maybe just a typo?
  

 Quote:


larshp said:


> I found the company web adress:
> 
> http://www.matrixelectronics.net/


 


 I highly doubt this is the real company website. It appears to be just a slapped together site made by a reseller, using pictures stolen from Coolfungadget and Headfonia.
   
  On the box of my Matrix Cube DAC it lists www.Matrix-Digi.com as the website. For the longest time it didn't work, prompting you for a user name and password. Today I check and it does work, although it doesn't have a whole lot of info beyond what we already know. It does have downloads for the user manuals of each product, if anyone needed that. The one interesting thing is the DA-100plus DAC that JTAM had mentioned a while back. It looks like a beast.


----------



## LarsHP

Thanks both of you for your answers. I have contacted coolfungadget to see if I can get him to send it to Norway - including one of the upgrade kits.


----------



## castlevania32

for those who wants to buy a m-stage a highly recommend you go by jtam's store. This guy has an excellent customer service, all my emails were responded quickly and nicely, i asked him if he could send me one OPA2134, the first one went lost in shipping, he then shipped me a second one also with a OPA2604. The amp is flawless too, If you want to enter the world of headphone amp this is the one


----------



## BournePerfect

Anybody have any impressions with this amp for the Audio Technica AD2000?
   
  -Daniel


----------



## jtam

It's a fake. The correct one should be http://matrix-digi.com/
   
  Quote: 





larshp said:


> I found the company web adress:
> 
> http://www.matrixelectronics.net/


----------



## bixby

Quick question!  Just had a chance to hear the Matrix Stage 2 today.  And during the test we ran the line outs to an amp and speakers.  
   
  Channels were reversed!
   
  The sounds we heard on other systems and headphones that are definitely right channel were coming out of the left channel of the speakers.  We checked all wiring 3 times, yet still it was reversed.   
   
  I ask only to see if anyone else had this come up.  If not perhaps it is an amp issue.
   
  Oh and by the way a nice HP amp once you ditch the original opamp
   
  thanks


----------



## stephentaylor

I got the M-Stage for Christmas to go with my Audio Technica ATH-W1000x - its my first headphone amp so I was wondering if anyone had any idea on the best gain setting to use on the amp for these headphones?
   
  Thanks


----------



## Jibbie

I've never heard the W1000x, but from its specs it looks decently sensitive, so I'd start with 0db.  If you can turn it past 3 o'clock on the volume knob, try 10db.  I can't imagine it needing 18db, the K701/hd 650 didn't even NEED that much, though that is what I thought was best for them.
  
  Quote: 





stephentaylor said:


> I got the M-Stage for Christmas to go with my Audio Technica ATH-W1000x - its my first headphone amp so I was wondering if anyone had any idea on the best gain setting to use on the amp for these headphones?
> 
> Thanks


----------



## Bojamijams

I've read from some people that the OPA627AP Biased into Class A sounds odd and congested and worse then stock adapter.. which I find weird unless these are some cheap chinese knockoff 627's. Does Tam's Audio carry legit US based ones or cheap knockoffs?
  
  Quote: 





bixby said:


> Quick question!  Just had a chance to hear the Matrix Stage 2 today.  And during the test we ran the line outs to an amp and speakers.
> 
> Channels were reversed!
> 
> ...


----------



## francisdemarte

Quote: 





stephentaylor said:


> I got the M-Stage for Christmas to go with my Audio Technica ATH-W1000x - its my first headphone amp so I was wondering if anyone had any idea on the best gain setting to use on the amp for these headphones?
> 
> Thanks


 

  
  Since I own a HD650 and a W1000X I use a gain of 18. I actually like them W1000X on a gain of 10, on 18 they sound a bit more exciting.
   
  They sound alright when set on 0, but I wouldn't recommend using a gain of 0 if you do a lot of opamp rolling. Quite a few opamps are not stable at a gain of 0.


----------



## stephentaylor

Thanks guys
   
  I have been using it on 0db since I received it (well at least I have left it on whatever setting it was on when it arrived).
   
  Given that they are quite sensitive, I take it this doesn't mean that increasing the db rating will damage the headphones?


----------



## JoetheArachnid

The gain will only make things louder. Sure, you could probably damage your 'phones if you put it on 20 gain and then turned the volume right up, but there's no harm in having it on 20 gain and keeping a reasonable level on the volpot. It just means that you've got more headroom to play with if needed. People talk about certian gain settings sounding 'best,' but from a purely technical point of view one would only adjust gain to get the widest use of the volume control for the cans in question. 'Optimal' position is probably 12 o'clock +/-1 hour or so for comfortable listening.


----------



## Charminbaer

Quote: 





joethearachnid said:


> The gain will only make things louder. Sure, you could probably damage your 'phones if you put it on 20 gain and then turned the volume right up, but there's no harm in having it on 20 gain and keeping a reasonable level on the volpot. It just means that you've got more headroom to play with if needed. People talk about certian gain settings sounding 'best,' but from a purely technical point of view one would only adjust gain to get the widest use of the volume control for the cans in question. 'Optimal' position is probably 12 o'clock +/-1 hour or so for comfortable listening.


 

 Not solely. Gain does affect opamp stability, the higher the gain the lower the opamps bandwith. Low bandwith is less likely to have instability. If you put a high speed opamp into the m-stage it will most likely be unstable at 0db.


----------



## Bojamijams

Anyone have comments on their 627's they ordered from Tam?  (meaning, are they real or fake? )


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





joethearachnid said:


> The gain will only make things louder. Sure, you could probably damage your 'phones if you put it on 20 gain and then turned the volume right up, but there's no harm in having it on 20 gain and keeping a reasonable level on the volpot. It just means that you've got more headroom to play with if needed. People talk about certian gain settings sounding 'best,' but from a purely technical point of view one would only adjust gain to get the widest use of the volume control for the cans in question. 'Optimal' position is probably 12 o'clock +/-1 hour or so for comfortable listening.


 

 Increased gain reduces the opamp's bandwidth.  Reducing the bandwidth improves stability, especially for high-speed opamps.  Ceramic caps soldered in parallel to the feedback resistors help a bit more, you'll be surprised at the improvement.  Give it a try!  n__n


----------



## ninjikiran

higher gain also likes to introduce noise on the m-stage. 
   
  Though unsure how it will react with the LCD'2 and new dac I am getting.


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





ninjikiran said:


> higher gain also likes to introduce noise on the m-stage.
> 
> Though unsure how it will react with the LCD'2 and new dac I am getting.


 

 There can be audible noise with some opamps.


----------



## AlfBaxter

Quote: 





bojamijams said:


> Anyone have comments on their 627's they ordered from Tam?  (meaning, are they real or fake? )


 


  I wasn't too impressed with them, but I'm not saying they are fake. All I'm saying is I have some OPA627 I know to be genuine (ordered from Cimarron tech) and I absolutely love the sound I get on my HD650 with the OPA627 in class-A - punchy, crystal clear top end, really tight bass and large soundstage. I put the ones from Tam in and they sounded lifeless and congested by comparison. I admit though that I didn't leave them in that long - but that was because there seemed to be such a big drop in sound quality.


----------



## Bojamijams

Damn. That's almost certainly a fake then


----------



## purrin

Or rejected chips by BB/TI that were otherwise headed to the trash bin that someone picked up and is now selling in China.


----------



## Mong0

Hello
   
  I have a question as i know nothing about opamps. I am removing the OPA627 class A package from my amp. I intend to to buy a LME49720NA to replace it. I should just remove the 627 on the "extender" from the socket that goes into the board and i then with no further ado insert the 49720 directly into the socket as long as it is aligned with the marker thing on the edge pointing in towards to back of the amp. Or do i need to take the socket thing out and plug the opamp directly onto the board?
  I assume all that talk about resistence UF or whatever it was about, was being handled by the soldering thingie and not some setting or something that i physically need to change.
   
  Short version: Bought the class A mod, want to remove and insert LME49720NA. What to do to make sure I wont destroy anything.


----------



## r3791

Hello wich the best the matrix M-Stage or the old Gilmore lite ?


----------



## purrin

Quote: 





mong0 said:


> Hello
> 
> I have a question as i know nothing about opamps. I am removing the OPA627 class A package from my amp. I intend to to buy a LME49720NA to replace it. I should just remove the 627 on the "extender" from the socket that goes into the board and i then with no further ado insert the 49720 directly into the socket as long as it is aligned with the marker thing on the edge pointing in towards to back of the amp. Or do i need to take the socket thing out and plug the opamp directly onto the board?
> I assume all that talk about resistence UF or whatever it was about, was being handled by the soldering thingie and not some setting or something that i physically need to change.
> ...


 

 You can plug the LM chip in the piggyback class A adapter no problem. I assume that it is the class A adapter and that you don't have the resistors soldered directly on the OPA627.


----------



## Mad Max

What I circled in green there seems to be throwing interference into the left channel of input 1.  How can I shield the inputs from those red cables?


----------



## Mong0

Quote: 





purrin said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

  
  The resisters is soldered directly onto the opamp which was soldered or otherwise stuck to an adapter. And that adapter with the opamp was then in another adapter which was inserted into the board. So it was basically running class a modded on the opamp into 2 adapters. I have removed everything but the last adapter and I think i will skip class A for now as I don't own a soldering iron and buying one just for this task may be a bit too much. But I assume I could just plug it into the socket then, cheers.


----------



## castlevania32

for those of you who have a dt880 600 paired with the m-stage which gain do you use ?


----------



## Jibbie

When I had the DT990/600ohm I used a gain of 20.  18 might work, but nothing lower.


----------



## Sganzerla

I use gain 20 too with my DT880/600.


----------



## castlevania32

Thanks that's what i thought. With 10dB it sounds thin.


----------



## purrin

Quote: 





mad max said:


> What I circled in green there seems to be throwing interference into the left channel of input 1.  How can I shield the inputs from those red cables?


 
   
  Can you explain more? Are you sure the wires are the culprit? Do you get buzzing or noise if you move those wires? I don't have my M-Stage anymore, but I believe those are just from the AC into the transformer. Shouldn't cause interference considering how far away they are from the input #1 trace on the PCB. There are a couple of things you can check:
   

 Make sure the individual wires are seated properly in the plug to the PCB
 Make sure the screw that fastens the transformer on the bottom side of the unit is securely fastened


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





purrin said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I was tinkering with parts of the amp to make sure I didn't miss something or if something looks messed up (checking for the source of the buzz) and when I completely covered those wires with my hand, the buzzing stopped.
  I was able to push that connector down slightly more and the buzz is quieter now, but still there.  Perhaps the connector is a bit faulty?
   
  I noticed an additional very low hum in both channels with my IEMs.  I wonder if that is the RK27-related hum I read about in the LC thread?  It is different from the buzz I've heard that originates from a ground loop between different equipment (if that is the right way to call that).


----------



## purrin

Loosen the transformer bolt and tighten again. I recall I had a similar problem and this did the trick.
   
  You could use aluminum foil to shield - tape a wire to it and fasten to a screw (ground). It's not a very elegant solution so I didn't want to suggest it in the first place. Tape down the aluminum foil and make sure none of it every touches the hot wires.


----------



## Mad Max

Messing with the transformer bolt didn't help.
   
  I'll try the improvised shielding once I find some tape, lol.
   
  Thanks!


----------



## igotnojob

I think I like my HD800 coming out of the M-Stage (OP627AP biased into Class A) better than from the WA2. The sound feels more crisp and slightly fuller. Interestingly, this is the exact opposite impression I get from my T1 and those amps. The T1 is better from the WA2. Is this crazy that I prefer the sound from a $280 amp over a $1050 one with my HD800? I mean, go budget amps!!
   
  Regardless, I think I am through plugging and unplugging headphones from my amps. For now, I am going to leave the HD800 plugged into the Matrix and my T1 plugged into the Woo. I'll use my K701/HD580 with my portable amps (Audinst Mx-1 & iBasso D4). Now I'm gonna need an amp for the LCD-2 I have on order but I think I have at least month to plan for that.


----------



## project86

Quote: 





igotnojob said:


> I think I like my HD800 coming out of the M-Stage (OP627AP biased into Class A) better than from the WA2. The sound feels more crisp and slightly fuller. Interestingly, this is the exact opposite impression I get from my T1 and those amps. The T1 is better from the WA2. Is this crazy that I prefer the sound from a $280 amp over a $1050 one with my HD800? I mean, go budget amps!!
> 
> Regardless, I think I am through plugging and unplugging headphones from my amps. For now, I am going to leave the HD800 plugged into the Matrix and my T1 plugged into the Woo. I'll use my K701/HD580 with my portable amps (Audinst Mx-1 & iBasso D4). Now I'm gonna need an amp for the LCD-2 I have on order but I think I have at least month to plan for that.


 


  Your HD800 experience fits with mine; M-Stage seems made for it. Many people also agree that the T1 pairs best with tubes. You are not crazy.
   
  From what I hear the M-Stage will do a respectable job with the LCD-2 so it might hold you over for a while. When I eventually get an LCD-2 I'm going for a Violectric V200 to see if the buzz about that is true.


----------



## BournePerfect

Hey guys, I was just wondering where I can buy a legit OP627AP (dual channel). I just bought this from CFG: http://coolfungadget.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=77 and I assume all I need is a Dip8 version of this opamp, correct? Would it be a plug-n-play onto this adapter, which then plugs into the m-stage board? Thanks.
   
  -Daniel


----------



## amcananey

Check any of the following:
   
Farnell
Mouser
DigiKey
RS Components
   
  But beware: buying OPA627s from reputable sources isn't cheap. You might even be best off buying from Coolfungadget (obviously you have to check prices).
   
  Best regards,
  Adam


----------



## BournePerfect

Hey thanks Adam. I had previously tried Farnell and Digikey but both were out of stock. I ordered from Mouser. The OPA627AP was $21.xx and the shipping from the UK estimated at about $7 USPS Priority (that seemes low though). The whole reason I didn't want to order from CFG is because there is plenty of speculation that he is selling fakes-and he hasn't really said otherwise in this thread that I have seen.
   
  Also, I was wondering has anyone used the LCD-2 with the m-stage to great effect? Also, what opamps seem to pair the best with it?
   
  -Daniel


----------



## amcananey

Daniel,
   
  Why did you order from the UK site? I see the US site has them for $22.05. Don't know what shipping would be...maybe your shipping costs were low because the UK site automatically placed your order through their US distribution? Then again, it's not like opamps weigh a ton...
   
  Regards,
  Adam


----------



## BournePerfect

Well I just went to Mouser dot com. I think it did reroute it to the US site when I placed the order because it asked me about changing my Country on the address, and changed the euros to USD as well. This would also explain the $7, which I'm sure wouldn't be possible if they were shipping from the UK.
   
  -Daniel


----------



## amcananey

Glad it worked out.
   
  Best,
  Adam


----------



## LarsHP

bourneperfect said:


> Hey thanks Adam. I had previously tried Farnell and Digikey but both were out of stock. I ordered from Mouser. The OPA627AP was $21.xx and the shipping from the UK estimated at about $7 USPS Priority (that seemes low though). The whole reason I didn't want to order from CFG is because there is plenty of speculation that he is selling fakes-and he hasn't really said otherwise in this thread that I have seen.
> 
> Also, I was wondering has anyone used the LCD-2 with the m-stage to great effect? Also, what opamps seem to pair the best with it?
> 
> -Daniel




I ordered from coolfungadget / Tam's Audio, and I asked him about the opamp being fake, rejected by BB or what. His answer to me was that they are used, but legit opamps.


----------



## roadcykler

I'm a little confused. Does the OPA627AP change/improve the sound of the amp with or without the resistors soldered onto it or do the resistors improve it regardless of the opamp?


----------



## BournePerfect

Thanks Lars. I just didn't want to take the chance that his chips are inferior sounding though, which has been echoed by a few posters here.
   
  Is CFG down for the Chinese festival right now? I ordere an m-stage a few days ago and haven't heard anything whatsoever.
  
  Quote: 





larshp said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## K3cT

Quote: 





bourneperfect said:


> Hey thanks Adam. I had previously tried Farnell and Digikey but both were out of stock. I ordered from Mouser. The OPA627AP was $21.xx and the shipping from the UK estimated at about $7 USPS Priority (that seemes low though). The whole reason I didn't want to order from CFG is because there is plenty of speculation that he is selling fakes-and he hasn't really said otherwise in this thread that I have seen.
> 
> Also, I was wondering has anyone used the LCD-2 with the m-stage to great effect? Also, what opamps seem to pair the best with it?
> 
> -Daniel


 

 The pairing is OK but not crisp enough. The M-Stage is a bit to the dark-side and so with the LCD2, the sound can come out slightly muddy and congested. Power-wise, there is no problem though. 
   
  I even prefer the M-Stage over the Concerto for LCD2. I find the latter too thin sounding.


----------



## BournePerfect

K3CT:
   
       What opamps are you using? Is it Class A biased? Hopefully the op627AP can help open up the LCD-s and perhaps brighten them up. I'm just getting the m-stage as a tweener amp until some sort of consensus is formed regarding the best amps for it. Thanks.
   
  -Daniel


----------



## K3cT

I tested it with 3 op-amps: a class A-biased OPA2134, OPA1642 and ADA4627-1. The last one is my favorite in this bunch for the LCD2 as its signature is towards the bright side and has a good PRaT and while its soundstage is not as wide as the OPA627, it's pretty well defined. I didn't have the class-A biased OPA627 at hand but it seems to be a close match with the 4627-1 and I might even slightly prefer the former. I can't say for sure though as I couldn't do an A/B comparison.


----------



## ninjikiran

The m-stage is.. epic but I am probably going to swap it out for a A-GD C2.1 or Lyr Schitt to pair with the LCD-2.  Haven't gotten my headphones yet though.
   
  I am using a Biased 49720


----------



## BournePerfect

Thanks K3cT. I'm hoping the m-tage will satisfy me with the Audeze's for a few couple of months til I buy a Phoenix.
   
  Ninjikiran: Please give comparisons if you get the C-2.1, as that's the amp I've always wanted to compare against the m-stage, but I can't really find info on here. The main C-2 thread is pretty much only impressions of the ACSS/Dac19 connection unfortunately. I'm currently waiting for my LCD-2s and am ultimately saving up for a Phoenix to stop this damn upgrade/sidegrade-itis lol.
   
  -Daniel


----------



## ninjikiran

Well if I got the C2.1 I would go ACSS as well to side step the opamps and go fully discrete. But I will try to make comparisons if I go that route


----------



## DarkScythe

Hey everyone,
   
  I've been trying to read through this whole thread (at least I've gone through every page, though I can't remember most of the more technical stuff) while doing my little headphone shootout.
  Having finally decided on my headphones (for now... hopefully I'm done!) I'm now looking into this "class-a" thing everyone seems to be talking about now.
   
  As far as I can tell, swapping an opamp would change the sound a bit, and biasing it into class-a would change it a bit more. My problem comes with trying to go through everyone's impressions, as they all seem to conflict with each other.
  I'm thinking perhaps it's best to pick up a few of these and try them out, but I'm not sure where to start.
   
  First off, I would need some sort of an adapter (since I don't know how to solder, and do not have any of the tools, it seems it'd be easiest to got he CFG route.)
  I assume I would need one of these for a single channel: http://coolfungadget.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=39_46&product_id=83
  or one of these for dual channel: http://coolfungadget.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=39_46&product_id=77
   
  I'm not sure which one to get, or if I should just get both, since again, I'm not sure what opamps I want/need.
   
  So I'd like to ask for an opamp recommendation. Ideally I'd like to have one that can be ordered through mouser or something (I need a switchcraft mini plug or similar as well.)
  My headphones are in my sig - I swap between them pretty regularly.
  Ideally, I'd like something to squeeze some more detail out of them, probably somewhere in the mids and highs. I am happy with the amount of bass these headphones have, so I'm not looking to add any more (excessive bass gives me headaches; especially flabby, boomy bass; as an example, the Senn PX-100 gives me a headache after a few minutes.) If anything, perhaps tightening up the bass a bit, but really I'd like to bring out the details in the highs/mids and vocals more. I'd like to avoid Grado SR-225 level brightness though. Otherwise, instrument separation, speedy attack/response, etc are also desired.
  I see the LM426(?) and OPA627(?) thrown around a lot, but I'm not sure if these would be recommended for me, or if there might be any better matches.
   
  Thanks!


----------



## Mad Max

M-Stage takes dual channel opamps.  You miss nothing special by skipping out on LM4562 (a.k.a. LME49710).  Grab OPA627 to start off with if you wish.  I would recommend OPA1611 on a 2x1 adapter if you can solder or can find someone to solder it for you.  It is my opamp of choice with my SR325.  ADA4627-1*A* (not the _B_ version, you will probably find it too bright) would be another superb choice.  Very hifi and a little lively, it will give you the improvement in bass and increased detail you are looking for without a doubt.


----------



## BChizzle

So i am thinking bout buying one of these amps... question is... Where? Any legit online site that sells it?


----------



## roadcykler

http://coolfungadget.com/store/   That's where I got mine and quite a few others here did too.
  Quote: 





bchizzle said:


> So i am thinking bout buying one of these amps... question is... Where? Any legit online site that sells it?


----------



## BChizzle

Thanks! I'm still a noob so i'm embarrassed to ask ... which voltage am i supposed to choose? This is gonna be for my K701s


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





bchizzle said:


> Thanks! I'm still a noob so i'm embarrassed to ask ... which voltage am i supposed to choose? This is gonna be for my K701s


 


  If you live in US 120 whick coofun gadget will knnow. When you get it set the gain at 10


----------



## DarkScythe

Quote: 





mad max said:


> M-Stage takes dual channel opamps.  You miss nothing special by skipping out on LM4562 (a.k.a. LME49710).  Grab OPA627 to start off with if you wish.  I would recommend OPA1611 on a 2x1 adapter if you can solder or can find someone to solder it for you.  It is my opamp of choice with my SR325.  ADA4627-1*A* (not the _B_ version, you will probably find it too bright) would be another superb choice.  Very hifi and a little lively, it will give you the improvement in bass and increased detail you are looking for without a doubt.


 


  Thanks for the response!
   
  I'm looking through those suggestions now to try and get a feel for them.
  I looked them up briefly through mouser.com but unfortunately it seems they don't have any of the ADA4627. (Digikey has these, but they don't have any switchcraft mini plugs that I need.)
  OPA627 also seems very expensive for some reason. There are also tons and tons of results, and while I can filter out the "wholesale" results pretty easily, I have no idea what any of the other results are, or why there are 5 versions of each opamp. The site might as well be in Greek at this point. 
   
  As far as the 2x1 adapter goes, is that the adapter i linked for "single" opamps, or is it something different?
  Considering I have no experience with soldering, I want to make this as simple as possible (I don't want to ruin the M-stage accidentally.) I figured if I could decide on some opamps, I could just order one of CFG's adapters and simply plug n' play; assuming all the opamps were of the same type at least. If I end up with multiple types (how do you tell anyway?) I'll have to get both though, I'd assume.
   
  My friend actually has a couple LM4562's, so I may give that a whirl as well, since it'd be the easiest.
  Otherwise, I'll put the OPA627 and OPA1611 on my list. Perhaps ADA4627 as well, if I can figure out a plan to order from 2 places.
   
  Are there any other suggestions? I also see an OPA637 mentioned; is this better than the 627, or are these just arbitrary numbers?
  Again, these will all hopefully be class-a modded via CFG's adapters.
   
  Also, the Shure SRH-840 and Audio Technica ATH-W1000X are both fairly easy to drive, while the Senn HD-600's require about 10 more gain to reach similar volume levels.
  This basically means I'm running the M-stage at the 0 gain setting (I could switch it back to 10, but I'd lose some range on the volume pot) and I'm not sure if this would affect the choice of opamps, since I also recall reading some lengthy posts about opamps requiring specific voltages and gain and such.


----------



## purrin

Quote: 





darkscythe said:


> Are there any other suggestions? I also see an OPA637 mentioned; is this better than the 627, or are these just arbitrary numbers?


 

 OPA637 is different part and needs high gain (<5 or +14dB) or other compensating circuits to work. It supposedly sounds better than OPA627, but I have never tried it.
   
   Quote: 





> Also, the Shure SRH-840 and Audio Technica ATH-W1000X are both fairly easy to drive, while the Senn HD-600's require about 10 more gain to reach similar volume levels.
> This basically means I'm running the M-stage at the 0 gain setting (I could switch it back to 10, but I'd lose some range on the volume pot) and I'm not sure if this would affect the choice of opamps, since I also recall reading some lengthy posts about opamps requiring specific voltages and gain and such.






   
  Run at +10db gain or more just to ensure whatever op-amps you try won't oscillate. You do lose range on the volume pot, but as long as you don't get tracking error between left / right channels, which usually happens at the first few degrees of rotation, you should be fine. I ran +10 with Grados and it wasn't a problem (had knob at 11-12 o'clock which is far away from where tracking errors typically occur.)


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





darkscythe said:


> Thanks for the response!
> 
> I'm looking through those suggestions now to try and get a feel for them.
> I looked them up briefly through mouser.com but unfortunately it seems they don't have any of the ADA4627. (Digikey has these, but they don't have any switchcraft mini plugs that I need.)
> ...


 

 Yes, the adapter you linked is for single opamps, but those opamps must be DIP8.  Also, it comes with a resistors attached and I don't know if 3.9Kohms will be compatible with all opamps.  The opamps I recommended to you only come in SOIC8, which is a smaller form that needs SOIC-to-DIP adapters.  I use these for SOIC opamps that I intend to use in the M-Stage or my DAC.
   
  You could ask in this thread for more suggestions on opamps and related stuff. 
   
  Gain of 0 is okay, but it sounds better in the other gain settings.  Some opamps will be more stable at higher gains like OPA637 as purrin said.  Also, whatever opamps you decide to try out, they must be able to take +/- 15V (or 30V total across power input pins) or else the M-Stage will fry them.
  I always leave my amp at 10 gain.  The 0 gain setting really should have been 2 gain or something.


----------



## RipcordAFF

Has anyone been able to get a hold of Jeffrey Tam in a while? I am trying to ask him a question about the M-stage, and I can't seem to get a hold of him by email.


----------



## francisdemarte

He's probably out on vacation for Chinese New Years.


----------



## BournePerfect

He's emailed me back twice in the past five days, and shipped my m-stage out yesterday. However, I can't figure out which shipper he is using, because the tracking # he provided works with NOBODY. Probably takes a day or two to update I suppose.
   
  -Daniel
  
  Quote: 





ripcordaff said:


> Has anyone been able to get a hold of Jeffrey Tam in a while? I am trying to ask him a question about the M-stage, and I can't seem to get a hold of him by email.


----------



## RipcordAFF

Would you mind telling me what email address he is using? You can PM me if you want.
   
  Thanks
  Reed
  
  Quote: 





bourneperfect said:


> He's emailed me back twice in the past five days, and shipped my m-stage out yesterday. However, I can't figure out which shipper he is using, because the tracking # he provided works with NOBODY. Probably takes a day or two to update I suppose.
> 
> -Daniel
> 
> ...


----------



## BournePerfect

Yep here it is:
   
       i@coolfungadget.com
   
  -Daniel


----------



## RipcordAFF

Hm, thats the one I have been using. I have been trying to speak with him regarding a warranty repair issue with my M-Stage....I hope he isn't just ignoring my emails...
  Quote: 





bourneperfect said:


> Yep here it is:
> 
> i@coolfungadget.com
> 
> -Daniel


----------



## BournePerfect

I doubt it. He's really hit and miss on his timing. My first email took 3 days for a reply (during the business week), and the others usually a day or two. Keep in mind the time differential as well.
   
  -Daniel


----------



## jeff119

Omg, I am struck at the coupon page.
  I cant enter my payment details.
  Quote: 





roadcykler said:


> http://coolfungadget.com/store/   That's where I got mine and quite a few others here did too.
> Quote:
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## BournePerfect

Ripcord: I just got another email back from him 5 minutes ago, FWIW. Hope he's not avoiding your issue!
   
  Jeff: I had the same issue when I tried ordering from him a few months ago. And frankly, I can't remember how I resolved it! It may have had something to do with my PayPal account or google checkout or something. If you can't figure it out, just order from hllyaudio.com which is where I got my first m-stage from...
   
  -Daniel


----------



## jeff119

I mananged to contact him using the email above and he fixed the issue. thanks.


----------



## RipcordAFF

.......hmmmm


----------



## TheMiddleSky

why I always feel that m-stage is a bit lack of imaging? though they have awesome midrange, full bodied good for vocal.


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





themiddlesky said:


> why I always feel that m-stage is a bit lack of imaging? though they have awesome midrange, full bodied good for vocal.


 

 You want ADA4627-1 in the opamp socket.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  Or you want to switch to ATH-A1000X or just flat out upgrade to A2000X.


----------



## BournePerfect

How well do the Audio Technicas pair with the m-stage? Also, how does the OPA627AP compare to the ADA4627-1, if you've heard both?
   
  -Daniel

  
  Quote: 





mad max said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## igotnojob

Quote: 





themiddlesky said:


> why I always feel that m-stage is a bit lack of imaging? though they have awesome midrange, full bodied good for vocal.


 

 Lately, I've been getting that same impression. I like the crisp but warm tone that the M-Stage puts out but the imaging is somewhat lacking with my HD800. This is something I would not have noticed without having a WA2 to compare the M-Stage to. The HD800 is widely acknowledged here as having excellent imaging characteristics and I really do agree with that compared to the other phones I own (T1, HD580, K701). It just seems that, compared to my WA2, running the HD800 off the M-Stage sounds more closed in and less expansive. That being said, I prefer the tone of the M-Stage to the WA2 with the HD800 with my current tube setup (RCA 6AS7G power tubes, Amperex Holland Bugle Boy drivers, and Mullard rectifiers - my warm "tubey" setup which I use for the T1). The M-Stage sounds more defined and precise with the HD800 than with the WA2 with that tube complement. I will say that the HD800 sounds its best with the stock WA2 tubes (a more solid state sounding setup) regaining the crisp, laserlike defined tone with the wide-open soundstage. But I hate having to remove and replace 6 tubes every time I want to switch from T1 to HD800 so, for now, the T1 on Woo 2 and HD800 on the M-Stage is the best compromise for me.
   
  Back to the imaging, having heard the possibility for improving the soundstage of the HD800 from that of the M-Stage, I'd like to investigate another amp to try. I think I like the solid-state sound for the HD800. I wonder if a DNA Sonett/WA6SE (ss-like tube) or a Meier Corda Concerto/SPL Auditor (ss) is in my future. It just sucks to have to drop a grand every time I feel like I might be able to upgrade a sonic feature.


----------



## purrin

If you want better imaging on the M-Stage, get rid of those input caps - both the 1.5uF boxes and the smaller bypass caps. Solder a wire in the place of the 1.5uF caps or replace with boutique caps (Sonicaps aren't too expensive). This is assuming your source / DAC has no DC offset, which it shouldn't. This mod will make the amp sound leaner with much more air and expansive soundstage. If you want to warm things back up, you'll have to play with the PS caps or op-amp. Also, if you haven't already done so, get rid of the stock OPA2134.


----------



## kwang411

Quote: 





igotnojob said:


> Lately, I've been getting that same impression. I like the crisp but warm tone that the M-Stage puts out but the imaging is somewhat lacking with my HD800. This is something I would not have noticed without having a WA2 to compare the M-Stage to. The HD800 is widely acknowledged here as having excellent imaging characteristics and I really do agree with that compared to the other phones I own (T1, HD580, K701). It just seems that, compared to my WA2, running the HD800 off the M-Stage sounds more closed in and less expansive. That being said, I prefer the tone of the M-Stage to the WA2 with the HD800 with my current tube setup (RCA 6AS7G power tubes, Amperex Holland Bugle Boy drivers, and Mullard rectifiers - my warm "tubey" setup which I use for the T1). The M-Stage sounds more defined and precise with the HD800 than with the WA2 with that tube complement. I will say that the HD800 sounds its best with the stock WA2 tubes (a more solid state sounding setup) regaining the crisp, laserlike defined tone with the wide-open soundstage. But I hate having to remove and replace 6 tubes every time I want to switch from T1 to HD800 so, for now, the T1 on Woo 2 and HD800 on the M-Stage is the best compromise for me.
> 
> Back to the imaging, having heard the possibility for improving the soundstage of the HD800 from that of the M-Stage, I'd like to investigate another amp to try. I think I like the solid-state sound for the HD800. I wonder if a DNA Sonett/WA6SE (ss-like tube) or a Meier Corda Concerto/SPL Auditor (ss) is in my future. It just sucks to have to drop a grand every time I feel like I might be able to upgrade a sonic feature.


 
  I'm interested in getting the matrix for my HD800 as well..looking for a warm and more full-bodied sound.
  Are you using the default opa2134? From my experience i find that opamp to have poorer imaging compared to say opa2228. Have you tried using a diff opamp?


----------



## igotnojob

Quote: 





purrin said:


> If you want better imaging on the M-Stage, get rid of those input caps - both the 1.5uF boxes and the smaller bypass caps. Solder a wire in the place of the 1.5uF caps or replace with boutique caps (Sonicaps aren't too expensive). This is assuming your source / DAC has no DC offset, which it shouldn't. This mod will make the amp sound leaner with much more air and expansive soundstage. If you want to warm things back up, you'll have to play with the PS caps or op-amp. Also, if you haven't already done so, get rid of the stock OPA2134.


 
   
  Quote: 





kwang411 said:


> Are you using the default opa2134? From my experience i find that opamp to have poorer imaging compared to say opa2228. Have you tried using a diff opamp?


 

 I am using a Yulong D100 DAC which sounds pretty good to me so far. I'd like to try something like changing out the caps in the M-Stage but my soldering skills are rubbish. I've never used the stock opamps, I've been using OPA627AP biased into Class A from day one. I suppose I could try rolling some different opamps to see how that changes the sound signature.
   
  Don't get me wrong; I really like my M-Stage. It was the biggest leap in the amp link of my chain since moving from portable amps. The difference between the M-Stage and the portables was much more significant than the leap in quality from the M-Stage to the WA2 (especially for non-vocal instrumental/classical and acoustic music). I just have a few quibbles with the soundstage when compared with the Woo. It would have been different had I never heard the WA2 but it's hard to unlearn something once it is in your mind. The difference may be considered subtle for some but it is definitely and palpably there. The best analog I can relate the difference in sound quality between the portables to the M-Stage would be when moving up from Monster Beats to the HD580/600/K701. The comparison between the M-Stage to the WA2 would be more like going from the HD580/K701 to the T1/HD800. Like many, I loved the sound of my HD580 and the clarity of the K701. I didn't think it was possible to really improve on that sound. And so it was with a very skeptical attitude that I spent a lot of money getting the T1 and the HD800. But once I heard them, I knew there was a readily apparent difference in the resolution and sound quality of the flagships. It may not have been as dramatic as the previous step up but, in some ways, it was just as profound hearing the heights of sonic purity out of a pair of headphones. Such is how I feel about the graduated steps in the amps I currently own. Sometimes ignorance really is bliss (especially since getting that extra 15% of sound may come at the expense of the M-Stage's price several times over).


----------



## TheMiddleSky

Quote: 





mad max said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

  
  the problem is more cause by amp, not the headphone. And I doubt I'll like A1000x/2000x, i'm huge fans of open back cans 


  Quote: 





igotnojob said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 yeah, the sound is full, but more to "close" side, also I feel m-stage has 2D imaging, and a bit lack of vertical space. Internal amp of uDac2 even has deeper bass than m-stage (tried with some songs from Avril Lavigne). Strange I know, I also never expected this before.
   
  it's not that I hate m-stage, because they have really good midrange, warm tone while still retaining good tranparency and not too sterile sounding. But as a really famous budget desktop amp, I think m-stage can be better for imaging wise.
   
   
   
  Quote: 





purrin said:


> If you want better imaging on the M-Stage, get rid of those input caps - both the 1.5uF boxes and the smaller bypass caps. Solder a wire in the place of the 1.5uF caps or replace with boutique caps (Sonicaps aren't too expensive). This is assuming your source / DAC has no DC offset, which it shouldn't. This mod will make the amp sound leaner with much more air and expansive soundstage. If you want to warm things back up, you'll have to play with the PS caps or op-amp. Also, if you haven't already done so, get rid of the stock OPA2134.


 

 I think, I'll just try another amps, modding amps isn't my biggest hobby


----------



## hearMotion

My NFB-3 arrived today so naturally I played around with my office desktop setup instead of actually working. I have the NFB-3 feeding the m-stage to K702's. The stock Matrix opamp is OK and the OPA627AU class A mod from coolfungadget sounded pretty nice but not perfect. I then gave the 2 channel TLE2141 class A module a try from the D10 topkit and now I cant get the grin off my head. To my ears its perfect.  Worth a go if you have one!


----------



## BournePerfect

Nevermind figured it out. Just another bad opamp from Mauser. Damnit. Anyone know if they have a return policy that's worth anything?
   
  -Daniel


----------



## Mad Max

They should.


----------



## F1REStarter

I'm a bit of a basshead and was wondering which opamp for my Matrix would provide me with a discernable increase in bass quantity and rumble over the stock chip. I've got a pair of Ultrasone Pro 900's and liked the rumble coming out of my portable XM4 w AD8620 op but the M-Stage is clearly superior in every aspect in terms of SQ, but miss the rumble.


----------



## Jonasklam

Hi Guys,
   
  I know this is stated somewhere in this thread, but I haven't got the time to look for it.
   
  What is the recommended gain setting with k701?


----------



## jeff119

can someone help me?
  I just got my matrix m stage. whenever i change my gain, my left side will always be much louder than the right side.
  The sound is only balanced when i use the default gain.
  the other 3 gains will result in louder left side.
   
  My setup is foobar --> X-fi Forte lineout ---> Matrix M stage --> K701


----------



## francisdemarte

Do you have both sets of dip switch set exactly the same? If they are you might have a bad set of switches.


----------



## jeff119

omg. thanks. 
  I feel so stupid right now!.
   
  but i have one slight problem.
  My pc will detect my left channel as right channel and right channel as left.
  so i have to swap my rca cable with the red cable into the white jack and the other way round. - -
   
   
  Anyway, how long do i need to burn in the amp?


----------



## Jibbie

10 or 18
  
  Quote: 





jonasklam said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> I know this is stated somewhere in this thread, but I haven't got the time to look for it.
> 
> What is the recommended gain setting with k701?


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





f1restarter said:


> I'm a bit of a basshead and was wondering which opamp for my Matrix would provide me with a discernable increase in bass quantity and rumble over the stock chip. I've got a pair of Ultrasone Pro 900's and liked the rumble coming out of my portable XM4 w AD8620 op but the M-Stage is clearly superior in every aspect in terms of SQ, but miss the rumble.


 

 You probably should have gotten a KICAS Caliente and an upgrade PSU to go with it.
  You could try 2x HA3-2525-5 on a 2x1 socketed adapter, but it won't be that much of a difference.  You would have to also replace the output and opamp capacitors with Elna RFS equivalents, I imagine, for a bit more bass.


----------



## Jonasklam

Quote: 





jibbie said:


> 10 or 18


 

  
  Thanks mate, I also have mine set to 18.


----------



## castlevania32

hi, besides | frank | who uses 0db gain with the lcd-2, are there other people who paired the lcd-2 with their m-stage and what gain do you use ?


----------



## Yuceka

Quote: 





castlevania32 said:


> hi, besides | frank | who uses 0db gain with the lcd-2, are there other people who paired the lcd-2 with their m-stage and what gain do you use ?


 


  I'll be receiving my pair at the beginning of this week and hopefully experiment with different gain settings and report back here.


----------



## perfect-pitch

Hi there,
   
  i want to inatall the OPA627AU class A mod from coolfungadget. Is it difficut to install or just "plug and play"?
   
  Regards,
   
  perfect-pitch


----------



## castlevania32

it's plug n play, even an 8 year old could do it  (just be careful that you plug it in the correct sense, and AC deconnected, but this is obvious )


----------



## ninjikiran

Using 0 gain with the biased opamp with my LCD-2's.  These thigns are more detailed than the k702's, without any annoying sibilant note fatigue.


----------



## treal512

Hmm, so flipping through the last some odd pages, I've come to no conclusion about what opamps I should try, haha. I received a used stock M-Stage (OPA2134? Havn't opened it yet) recently and would like to tinker with the sound. But having no extra parts, do I just start buying random opamps trying all of them or what? Off what basis do these matter the most? The headphones? Desired sound? Is there a helpful opamp guide that describes basic attributes, etc? I love tinkering with things, so thanks if anyone could help!
   
  Also, is there a recommended burn-in period for the M-Stage?


----------



## Mad Max

Don't worry about burn-in, it sounds great out of the box and only gets better with time.
  I noticed the treble harshness in mine go away after the first 50 hours or so, I think.
   
  If you can't decide on anything, order a pair of HA3-2525-5 samples from Intersil, and TLE2081ACP from Texas Instruments.  They will need adapters.
  Or you can just go for the OPA627 like the others.


----------



## Jibbie

Quick questions:
   
  I have the Logitech Z2300s (I know they aren't very good, but they're just so that I can have speakers if I want them.  I plan on getting some legit speakers when I have the money), and have so far been plugging them into the headphone out of the Matrix (they use a 1/8 inch plug for input, so I just slap on a 1/4 converter).  I'm curious if it would be better to plug them into the line out on the back of the amp.  I could buy an RCA to mini female cable and plug it in that way.  Is that better?  When the speakers are plugged into the line out, will the headphone out cease working? And if both do work simultaneously, won't that mean that only half of the amps power is going to the headphone out and half is going to the line out?  I know nothing about amps' line-out functions and pre amps, so sorry if these were dumb questions.
   
  Thank you,


----------



## Mad Max

The Pre-amp out (not line-out, that's what DACs and soundcards tend to have) is always active.


----------



## Jibbie

Thanks for the quick reply, but will using the preamp out affect the output power on the headphone out?
  
  Quote: 





mad max said:


> The Pre-amp out (not line-out, that's what DACs and soundcards tend to have) is always active.


----------



## Mad Max

Not sure on that, unfortunately.


----------



## Jibbie

Sad day 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
   
  Does anyone else know??
  
  Quote: 





mad max said:


> Not sure on that, unfortunately.


----------



## roadcykler

I have those same Logitech's and I e-mailed Tam and asked him the same question and he said that headphones and those speakers can be used simultaneously. I'm not sure why one would do that except to maybe get the subwoofer involved in the headphone listening. I have them hooked up to the line out via an RCA to 1/8 plug. I can't speak to the potential power division (whether it does or does not).
  Quote: 





jibbie said:


> Quick questions:
> 
> I have the Logitech Z2300s (I know they aren't very good, but they're just so that I can have speakers if I want them.  I plan on getting some legit speakers when I have the money), and have so far been plugging them into the headphone out of the Matrix (they use a 1/8 inch plug for input, so I just slap on a 1/4 converter).  I'm curious if it would be better to plug them into the line out on the back of the amp.  I could buy an RCA to mini female cable and plug it in that way.  Is that better?  When the speakers are plugged into the line out, will the headphone out cease working? And if both do work simultaneously, won't that mean that only half of the amps power is going to the headphone out and half is going to the line out?  I know nothing about amps' line-out functions and pre amps, so sorry if these were dumb questions.
> 
> Thank you,


----------



## Jibbie

Okay sweet thank you.  I'm assuming that if you have a headphone plugged in and the speakers into the preamp out and you play music it will come out of both the headphones and the speakers?  Thats strange, but I guess I'll just inplug my headphones anytime I want speakers, which is better than having to unplug headphones and then plug in speakers each time.


----------



## Ocellia

Just to say a big Thank you to all you folks who posted on here. Spotting a Matrix for sale, I scanned this string quickly and it determined my purchase. I needed something with reasonable power to run my Wharfedale Isodynamic phones.  It's STILL a squeeze! Running on 18 db at 3 p.m. on vol gets it loud enough!  Will try 20 to see if it affects quality.
  The world's most inefficient phones?
  But also one of the best!
  Nice sound, as you all know.


----------



## Jibbie

I received the RCA > mini female cable I ordered from monoprice and my speakers do indeed work out of the pre-out at the back of the M-Stage.  If headphones are plugged in, sound will come from both the speakers and the headphones at the same time.  I'm not sure whether this means the output power of the M-Stage is split, and only part of the power is going to the headphones, but when I turn my speakers on and off with my headphones on my head, I notice no difference in sound quality so I'm fine with it.
   
  Thanks again for the help guys.


----------



## clams

Quote: 





jibbie said:


> I received the RCA > mini female cable I ordered from monoprice and my speakers do indeed work out of the pre-out at the back of the M-Stage.  If headphones are plugged in, sound will come from both the speakers and the headphones at the same time.  I'm not sure whether this means the output power of the M-Stage is split, and only part of the power is going to the headphones, but when I turn my speakers on and off with my headphones on my head, I notice no difference in sound quality so I'm fine with it.
> 
> Thanks again for the help guys.


 


  Is that a good idea? Aren't you double amping your powered speakers then?


----------



## Mad Max

That shouldn't be an issue.


----------



## project86

The rear panel RCA out is a line level output signal, and is not powered in the same way that the headphone jack is. So you aren't splitting your power at all, nor are you double amping your powered speakers. Think of it like a pre-amp output on the back of a home theater receiver.


----------



## Ocellia

Quote: 





project86 said:


> The rear panel RCA out is a line level output signal, and is not powered in the same way that the headphone jack is. So you aren't splitting your power at all, nor are you double amping your powered speakers. Think of it like a pre-amp output on the back of a home theater receiver.


 
  I'm sure that the volume control on mine affected the output to my chip amp today! Running into a Sonic Impact 'Son of T', into PAWO horns. Will have to check!


----------



## LarsHP

Pictures of the OPA627AP with class A mod (from Tam's Audio / coolfungadget) in the M-Stage


----------



## Jibbie

Yeah the volume control on the Matrix affects the pre-out on the back.
  
  Quote: 





ocellia said:


> I'm sure that the volume control on mine affected the output to my chip amp today! Running into a Sonic Impact 'Son of T', into PAWO horns. Will have to check!


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





jibbie said:


> Yeah the volume control on the Matrix affects the pre-out on the back.


 

 It's not a pre-amp output if the volume control doesn't affect it.


----------



## Jibbie

It uses the same volume pot as the headphone out yet doesn't use the same amp circuitry as the headphone out does?  I'm confused.  I just want to know if using the pre-amp out affects the power (and therefore SQ) of the headphone out


----------



## jeff119

My setup : Foobar2000 + WASAPI >Auzentech X-fi Forte> Matrix M-Stage > K701
  
  Is my soundcard limiting the potential of the M stage and K701 pairing?
  Would a dac make a notable difference?


----------



## Mad Max

Probably some mid-fi DAC at the very least if you are _that _concerned.


----------



## estreeter

I had patchy results with various DAC/amp combos prior to buying the Streamer II - for the asking price, I see it as a no-brainer.


----------



## purrin

Quote: 





jeff119 said:


> My setup : Foobar2000 + WASAPI >Auzentech X-fi Forte> Matrix M-Stage > K701
> 
> Is my soundcard limiting the potential of the M stage and K701 pairing?
> Would a dac make a notable difference?


 

 I had an Auzen a while ago, but I later got too spoiled and decided that computer sound cards just didn't do it for me. The M-Stage is capable of taking a better source, particularly if you do the class A mods with a better op-amp.
   
  As far as "notable difference", that's something only you can determine.


----------



## jeff119

Thanks for the responds guys!
  I am wondering where you guys get the OPA627 class A mod from?
  read from the previous posts that OPA627 from CFG is inferior? is it true?


----------



## project86

Quote: 





jeff119 said:


> My setup : Foobar2000 + WASAPI >Auzentech X-fi Forte> Matrix M-Stage > K701
> 
> Is my soundcard limiting the potential of the M stage and K701 pairing?
> Would a dac make a notable difference?


 

 That could be the next step unless you wanted to try some different flavors of headphones. Different headphones are going to have a very noticeable change in sound, compared to an upgraded DAC which can often be a subtle change. But if you love your K701 and want to further refine their sound, a DAC upgrade and/or mods to the M-Stage would be your next step. 
   


  Quote: 





jibbie said:


> It uses the same volume pot as the headphone out yet doesn't use the same amp circuitry as the headphone out does?  I'm confused.  I just want to know if using the pre-amp out affects the power (and therefore SQ) of the headphone out


 


  It is confusing when you put it that way. Maybe it will help to think of an integrated amp. Let's say you have speaker outputs on the back rated at 140 watts per channel. You also have pre-amp outputs so you can later upgrade to a dedicated amp if you want. These pre-amp outs are controlled by the main volume knob, yet they aren't sending out 140wpc. At some point the signal is being split and routed separate ways; one goes out the pre-amp RCA jacks on the rear, while the other goes to that last amplification stage and then out to your speakers. Apply that same thinking to the M-stage and it starts to make sense. The specifics vary from one product to the next, but the general idea is the same and it means that you don't have to worry about lowering your SQ.


----------



## Jibbie

Thank you 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  Quote: 





project86 said:


> That could be the next step unless you wanted to try some different flavors of headphones. Different headphones are going to have a very noticeable change in sound, compared to an upgraded DAC which can often be a subtle change. But if you love your K701 and want to further refine their sound, a DAC upgrade and/or mods to the M-Stage would be your next step.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## BournePerfect

Anyone heard from CFG lately? I ordered the OPA627AP adapter 2 weeks ago (in stock then) and have still not received it. I've emailed Jeffrey twice in the past week and he has yet to respond?!
   
  -Daniel


----------



## ETAHL

I ordered an OPA627 with my Matrix M-Stage from CFG and both came together within 2 weeks.
  The M-Stage is a good upgrade to the headphone out of a Topping D2 that I was using with my LCD-2 in the office.
  Definitely recommend the OPA627 over the OPA2134. Higher quality bass, better focus, vocals are fantastic. It sounds a bit tube like.
  Enjoying the M-Stage with my LCD-2.


----------



## purrin

I don't have my M-Stage anymore, but I can definitely see it as being a good match for the LCD-2, probably the best for it's price.


----------



## mobayrasta

Right now at the house I have a Black Cube Linear, a Matrix M Stage with class A biased LM4562 and a Cavelli Audio Bijou Tube amp. I have tried them all using the Eastern Electric Mini Max Dac as a source and I prefer the M-Stage with upgraded op-amp with my LCD2 and not by a close margin. I LOVE my Bijou with almost all of my other headphones. With the variable negative  feedback control it works with a lot of headphones with various impedance. It runs my AKG 340's wonderfully which are very hard to drive but it just does not seem to have the oomph and synergy of the Matrix with the LCD2. I really can't believe how much I like this combo.
   
   
  PS if anybody would like to help me bias some more opamps into class A I would gladly share the many types of spare opamps I have. Also looking for some browndog adapters for the metal can LM4562 and equivilant. Send me a PM if interested.
   
  Does anybody know if the metal can version of the LM4562 can be biased into class A and also can the pins be bent to fit the opamp socket without the browndog adapters?  
   
   
  Peace and Respect
   
  MoBay


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





mobayrasta said:


> ...
> Does anybody know if the metal can version of the LM4562 can be biased into class A and also can the pins be bent to fit the opamp socket without the browndog adapters?


 

 It can be done.  =]
   
  The TO-99 metal can has a tab sticking out on one side to show you where _pin 8_ is.  From there the rest is just as modding the DIP8 version, just a different shape.


----------



## ninjikiran

Was not much a fan of the M-Stage with my LCD-2's


----------



## project86

Isn't it funny how we all hear differently? Great example right there.


----------



## estreeter

Quote: 





ninjikiran said:


> Was not much a fan of the M-Stage with my LCD-2's


 


  Interesting - I think this is the first negative 'M-Stage with LCD2' post I've come across. Care to elaborate on your lack of enthusiasm ?


----------



## Vinc

Hello,
  I'm looking foward to buy the Matrix M-Stage.
  For those who bought it online, what site did you use? I've found the amp on "http://coolfungadget.com/store/index.php?route=common/home". Anyone ordered from there?
   
  Thanks.


----------



## ninjikiran

Volume control did not feel as precise as it did with the 702's,  for one but I will have to wait till my Concerto arrives to truly make a comparison.
   
  Felt like something was missing though.
  
  Quote: 





estreeter said:


> Interesting - I think this is the first negative 'M-Stage with LCD2' post I've come across. Care to elaborate on your lack of enthusiasm ?


----------



## estreeter

Quote: 





ninjikiran said:


> Volume control did not feel as precise as it did with the 702's,  for one but I will have to wait till my Concerto arrives to truly make a comparison.
> 
> Felt like something was missing though.


 

 Fair enough, but I think you have to keep the price of the M-Stage in mind : next step up would be amps like the T-33H, Concerto and HPA160, but you are more than doubling the price of M-Stage.


----------



## roadcykler

That's exactly where I ordered mine and also where I ordered the Burr Brown OPA627AP class A upgrade. I'm very happy with it. That was the first thing I've ordered directly from anywhere in China and was pleasantly surprised with how fast it arrived.  
  Quote: 





vinc said:


> Hello,
> I'm looking foward to buy the Matrix M-Stage.
> For those who bought it online, what site did you use? I've found the amp on "http://coolfungadget.com/store/index.php?route=common/home". Anyone ordered from there?
> 
> Thanks.


----------



## ETAHL

Just tried the LM4562, also from CFG. Its sound signature is similar to the original OPA2134, but better performance all around. I can see that it would go very well with instrumentals. I lean more towards vocals, where the OPA627 really shines. Can't wait for my DIP socket to show up, so I can do the class A mod.


----------



## treal512

What is the difference between OPA627AU and OPA627AP?





  I want to give this OEM opamp the boot, but I'm apparently a super noob when it comes to this stuff.


----------



## purrin

Quote: 





etahl said:


> Just tried the LM4562, also from CFG. Its sound signature is similar to the original OPA2134, but better performance all around. I can see that it would go very well with instrumentals. I lean more towards vocals, where the OPA627 really shines. Can't wait for my DIP socket to show up, so I can do the class A mod.


 

 BTW, class A mod should warm up the sound of LM4562. More bias current = warmer.
   
  Quote: 





treal512 said:


> What is the difference between OPA627AU and OPA627AP?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 AU is surface mount chip which needs to be mounted on a dual SMT->DIP adapter - one chip on top side and another on bottom side. AP is DIP - unfortunately because the M-Stage uses a dual op-amp chip, you still need an adapter. If I were to use the DIP chips, I would use BP instead of the AP. The BP are milspec and supposed to be better. Otherwise I'd use the AU - one less less socket to get in the way and same distance to the PCB for less electrical issues.


----------



## ninjikiran

I never believe price == quality, so it could really go either way.  Based on perceptions in multiple threads the M-Stage is not really on a level too far below(even if pricing is).
   
  Though in this case to my ears the Concerto can very well be leaps beyond(relative) what I heard in the M-Stage.  Part of it is, I think the LCD-2 meshes better with a stepped attenuator, the concerto being being digital first all the better.
   
  10db Gain on the M-Stage was a bit excessive imo, while with 0db gain the headroom was there if I turned it up but the precision between moving volume higher and lower was just missing. As for something missing, can't say for sure.  Could just be such a radical change in headphones that caused this.  The LCD-2's are in a word natural(I actually enjoy female sibilance now) and relatively flat, which means the oomph that exist is on basis of the recording more so than the headphones trying to amaze me(which they do by their merit and ability to go deep).
   
  In hind sight I should of kept the M-Stage as a speaker preamp.
   

  
  Quote: 





estreeter said:


> Fair enough, but I think you have to keep the price of the M-Stage in mind : next step up would be amps like the T-33H, Concerto and HPA160, but you are more than doubling the price of M-Stage.


----------



## Frank I

Having owned both the Concerto and the M Stage both are outstanding amps and the M Stage is an overachieving best bargin in every way. I think it outperformed any other amp in its and msome more expensive amps. The concerto is the best SS headamp I have heard to date a terrific amp a step up over the matrix but not not 3X better as its cost reflects. But I could live with the M Stage as my SS amp of choice and would stiull own it if I were not into tube amps so much.


----------



## Sganzerla

In a brief listening on a meet here in my city, I compared my Matrix+OPA Earth to Concerto. The differences weren't small - if I had money I could easily replace my amp there without thinking twice.
   I think people should listen more to this OPA by the way.


----------



## estreeter

Fantastic to get feedback on the Concerto vs the Matrix. Tougher to find comparisons with the mighty T-33H, but thats understandable.


----------



## curenut73

My setup is the K702 fed by the M-Stage and usb DacWOW.  I got the opa627 and didnt really like the changes it made to the soundstage.  I also have a Corda Headfive and I decided to try 2 of the lm6171s out of it on a dual dip adapter and absolutely love this sound!  I have read many posts about how picky this opamp is and am worried about damaging my M-stage running them on an amp not designed around them.  Do I have anything to worry about?


----------



## ninjikiran

Yea the concerto definitely hit the spot, volume precision with the LCD-2's are that much greater and that sense of something missing is definitely no longer there.
   
  It was definitely a noticeable improvement on a large scale, but I wouldn't be doing the M-Stage justice by comparing sound signatures since I don't have the m-stage with me at the moment.  I guess if I could though the matrix was less wire with gain then the concerto is.
   
  Which was ok with the 702's but not so much with the LCD-2's.
   
  As an added bonus the cross feed sounds better than foobars built in cross feed while at the same time making some older recordings with hard pannings easier to listen to. 
   
   Still, the m-stage is a solid amp.


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





curenut73 said:


> My setup is the K702 fed by the M-Stage and usb DacWOW.  I got the opa627 and didnt really like the changes it made to the soundstage.  I also have a Corda Headfive and I decided to try 2 of the lm6171s out of it on a dual dip adapter and absolutely love this sound!  I have read many posts about how picky this opamp is and am worried about damaging my M-stage running them on an amp not designed around them.  Do I have anything to worry about?


 
   
  Not really.
   
  If you want really accurate soundstage, OPA1641 can't be beat, I'm told.  It requires soldering to an adapter, however.


----------



## estreeter

Quote: 





ninjikiran said:


> Yea the concerto definitely hit the spot, volume precision with the LCD-2's are that much greater and that sense of something missing is definitely no longer there.
> 
> It was definitely a noticeable improvement on a large scale, but I wouldn't be doing the M-Stage justice by comparing sound signatures since I don't have the m-stage with me at the moment.  I guess if I could though the matrix was less wire with gain then the concerto is.
> 
> ...


 

 Good feedback - thanks.


----------



## castlevania32

the volume control is really too weird at 0dB with the LCD-2 (it seems unlinear). Since i turn it very often, i kept with +10dB...
  I might go with the concerto if the digital pot doesn't make a clicking sound like audio-gd phoenix


----------



## ninjikiran

The concerto makes the clicking noises when changing volume, but its not really a probem unless you have your hand on the knob during every song.  Its stepped, but feels linear.  No random shots of volume spike, no tactile grooves.


----------



## crickbob

Please forgive my "newbie -ness".  Great group here!
   
  I've dusted off the Rega Planar 3 and have really started to enjoy listening to vinyl again.  After reading this thread I've decided that I'd like to invest in the Matrix M-Stage and AKG-701 (or 702).  I have a couple of questions.
   
  My AV receiver that everything (including turntable) goes through is a Integra DTR-40.1
   
  I "assume" that the Matrix simply connects though the tape-in / tape-out of the receiver, correct?
   
  My other question regards the opamp's.  My vinyl listening consists of a variety of music but if I were to zero in on what I'd like to listen to mostly with the headphones it would be female vocals (rock, folk, pop, jazz), classic jazz (coltrane etc.), some classical, and yes, some good old rock but don't need big boomy bass, just realistic imaging.
   
  I was thinking of ordering the Matrix direct from Tam's site and was about to add the " BURR BROWN OPA627AP WITH CLASS A BIASING MOD" - mostly because it looks like plug' n play (ie: no soldering and removable) and do tests with and without it.  If I didn't care for the sound with it I could simply remove it.  Am I correct with this?
   
  Any help or suggestions about this setup would be greatly appreciated.  I don't have a huge budget but I think this combination will keep me happy for awhile.  I'm assuming that the sound coming out of my old AKG-240's (I *think they're the sextet model) would be much better as well with the Matrix rather than the phone out of the receiver.
   
  Thanks! - Bob


----------



## castlevania32

Quote: 





ninjikiran said:


> The concerto makes the clicking noises when changing volume, but its not really a probem unless you have your hand on the knob during every song.  Its stepped, but feels linear.  No random shots of volume spike, no tactile grooves.


 


  actually i do have my hand on the volume knob ....so often....i think the clicking noises will keep me away from the concerto


----------



## project86

Quote: 





crickbob said:


> Please forgive my "newbie -ness".  Great group here!
> 
> I've dusted off the Rega Planar 3 and have really started to enjoy listening to vinyl again.  After reading this thread I've decided that I'd like to invest in the Matrix M-Stage and AKG-701 (or 702).  I have a couple of questions.
> 
> ...


 

  
  I believe you are correct on both accounts. Tape out from the Integra in to the M-Stage, and easy swapping of the opamp depending on which you prefer more.


----------



## ETAHL

Got in two more opamps in to try; AD797 & OPA1641.
  AD797 has similar attributes as the LM4562, but with a boost to the treble. Too bright for my taste.
  The OPA1641 is again similar to the LM4562, but with some of the vocal magic of the OPA627. Seems to also add a bit of sparkle without being bright. The OPA627 has great vocals, but a tad on the dark side. The OPA1641 in the M-Stage is very well balanced with my LCD-2.  Looks like we have a winner!


----------



## SpecterJin

Matrix M-Stage Vs. Little dot MK III
  which would you is better?


----------



## roadcykler

You can only hear the clicking sounds at lower volumes and if you have closed headphones you might not be able to hear it at all. 
  Quote: 





castlevania32 said:


> actually i do have my hand on the volume knob ....so often....i think the clicking noises will keep me away from the concerto


----------



## Vinc

It's pretty weird.
  I've ordered tonight from tam's audio website.
  In the last confirmation step, it told me :"10413::The totals of the cart item amounts do not match order amounts.". (It seems that I had this problem because I use a french browser which uses comma instead of a period between decimal numbers.
  However, my credit card still got charged that amount of money of the order and it looks like I didn't make any order (not appearing on the site). Let's just hope that the owner is legit and will respond to my e-mail. :S


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





etahl said:


> Got in two more opamps in to try; AD797 & OPA1641.
> AD797 has similar attributes as the LM4562, but with a boost to the treble. Too bright for my taste.
> The OPA1641 is again similar to the LM4562, but with some of the vocal magic of the OPA627. Seems to also add a bit of sparkle without being bright. The OPA627 has great vocals, but a tad on the dark side. The OPA1641 in the M-Stage is very well balanced with my LCD-2.  Looks like we have a winner!


 
   
  Where did you get those AD797 from?


----------



## sluker

Quote: 





specterjin said:


> Matrix M-Stage Vs. Little dot MK III
> which would you is better?


 

 The M-stage replaced my LD MKIII as my pre-amp/headphone amp in my office rig. In my opinion, there is no comparison.


----------



## Katysax

Originally Posted by *SpecterJin* 




  Matrix M-Stage Vs. Little dot MK III
  which would you is better?
   
  Response:
   
  I agree that the M-Stage is unequivocally better.  To some extent it's an issue of tubes vs. SS. The M-Stage simply has more "oomph".  It does not drive my headphones as well.


----------



## jeff119

Has anyone ordered anything from CFG recently?
  Ordered a opa627ap class A last week and it is still processing.
  Smth is wrong?


----------



## sluker

I ordered the same thing two weeks ago and it arrived yesterday.


----------



## Waqar

Has anybody tried any other mods exept biasing into class a and removing the input caps?
  Is there any other mod i can do? like changing components too higher quality ones? Or an other mod i can do with a soldering iron at home?


----------



## Waqar

Or does anybody have any diy or just a description would be apriciated for the iput cap removal?


----------



## francisdemarte

waqar said:


> Has anybody tried any other mods exept biasing into class a and removing the input caps?
> Is there any other mod i can do? like changing components too higher quality ones? Or an other mod i can do with a soldering iron at home?




Check out the Lovely Cube thread linked in my Sig. The two amps are pretty close layout wise. There are some very extreme discussions now on modding components that may apply to the M-Stage too.


----------



## Waqar

Nice i am gonna look into it.


----------



## Bobcow

I received my M-Stage last week, so far it is quite amazing. Before that I was using the Headphone Out from my Essence STX, now using the Essence STX line out to my M-Stage is so much better. The most obvious difference so far is soundstage and seperation, every aspect has been improved though.


----------



## Waqar

Quote: 





bobcow said:


> I received my M-Stage last week, so far it is quite amazing. Before that I was using the Headphone Out from my Essence STX, now using the Essence STX line out to my M-Stage is so much better. The most obvious difference so far is soundstage and seperation, every aspect has been improved though.


 

 Yes the amp section of the asus is not that good compared too the matrix, but it works well as and dac with the matrix.


----------



## estreeter

Quote: 





waqar said:


> Yes the amp section of the asus is not that good compared too the matrix, but it works well as and dac with the matrix.


 

 The Essence gives you so much bang-for-buck, but my experience with most 'one-box' solutions is that there is always a compromise somewhere.


----------



## Heidegger

What the heck? I just read this _entire_ thread expecting _eventually _to come across a comparison between the Matrix M-Stage and the Black Cube Linear. Shouldn't that have been priority number one? Yet here I have come to the end and nobody has done what should have been done 104 pages ago. I can't believe it.
   
  Has anybody actually listened to both amps -- hopefully on a sustained basis?


----------



## sunneebear

Try the Lovely Cube thread.  I seem to remember a couple of people having listen to both and one person to all three.  I may be wrong but I think it was Lovely Cube, M-Stage then Black Cube.  This being due to quality of components.


----------



## Mad Max

The Lovely Cube is purportedly a bit better, even more so after component rolling and other modifications.


----------



## Pratt

Quote: 





sunneebear said:


> Try the Lovely Cube thread.  I seem to remember a couple of people having listen to both and one person to all three.  I may be wrong but I think it was Lovely Cube, M-Stage then Black Cube.  This being due to quality of components.


 


  Interesting findings...the most expensive amp places last!


----------



## sunneebear

Yes but with a grain of salt.  Three amps of the same design circuitry, the differences has to be minute.  Also take into considerate the reviewers' tastes and headphone used.  The biggest "win" I see here is the price of the clones.


----------



## Heidegger

Quote: 





pratt said:


> Interesting findings...the most expensive amp places last!


 
  Actually, I read that thread months ago and remember it differently. That was the thread that convinced me to buy the real BCL rather than the clone. There was talk of counterfeit and subgrade parts in the clone, which had to be exchanged for better parts. It was only after many mods that one person claimed the LC had exceeded the BCL. I went back and checked and couldn't find a single person on that thread who had actually listened to the BCL with any regularity. A couple of people had heard the BCL in passing. For instance, Aspenx wrote, "The last time I heard the original BCL was thru a Marantz SACD player hooked up probably with some hi-end cables and power filtering etc while lying back on the leather recliner in dynaaudio5555 in Akihabara. I don't have any of that at home and as unreliable as acoustic memory goes, listening to the same CD (but FLAC-ripped and played through my computer setup instead) the Lovely Cube stock sounded a bit more congested." 
   
  There are basically two contrasting opinions, one represented by purrin here on this thread and the other by flukeII on the Lovely Cube thread. Purrin claims that the physical components in the BCL and in the Matrix are the same in quality to slightly better in the Matrix. However, from his posts it seems purrin never heard or actually saw a BCL. He was just going by the picture found at the Lehmannaudio website which was posted here some pages back. By contrast, fluke over at the Lovely Cube thread claims that the parts in the clone versions (from China) are of vastly inferior quality. His position seems to be that only through _a lot_ of replacement of parts and modifications can the clone be improved to the level of the BCL. Now, unlike purrin, fluke claims not only to have heard the BCL but to have looked inside it, so I give his opinion more weight. Both purrin and fluke seem to have a good grasp of the technical side of amps, but fluke is the one with actual experience with the BCL. I own the BCL and am not really skeptical about the claim that the _modded_ clone can sound just as good or better than the authentic BCL (which really does sound fantastic). But I am way skeptical about the claim that the components themselves are of equal or even better quality in the clone than in the BCL. That highly questionable claim seems to have originated with purrin, but, by his own admission, s/he had never seen let alone studied the interior of an actual BCL, had never even heard one.


----------



## ETAHL

The Lehmann BLC is not exactly using exotic parts.
  As an audio DIYer, I would say the Matrix has some parts not as good, some the same or equivalent, and some better. Either way, I can't see the OEM electronic parts of both amps to worth more than $50.


----------



## estreeter

Quote: 





etahl said:


> The Lehmann BLC is not exactly using exotic parts.
> As an audio DIYer, I would say the Matrix has some parts not as good, some the same or equivalent, and some better. Either way, I can't see the OEM electronic parts of both amps to worth more than $50.


 


  Right, but as a DIYer you can also see that there is more to building an amp than assembling a parts stash and installing it into an enclosure ?


----------



## Heidegger

Which parts of the Matrix are better? The volume pot, rca inputs, headphone jacks, wires, insulation, power supply, power cord, toroidal transformer, capacitors, chassis? Somebody claimed the second version of the Matrix had an EI transformer, but, regardless of the fact that it's debatable whether EI is more desirable than toroid, I think it turned out it was an encapsulated toroid not EI. The casing supposedly cuts down on the magnetic field and on noise. Yet the BCL is dead quiet while I remember reading several reports that the Matrix had some slight noise when you maxed the pot. 


etahl said:


> The Lehmann BLC is not exactly using exotic parts.
> As an audio DIYer, I would say the Matrix has some parts not as good, some the same or equivalent, and some better.


----------



## ETAHL

Quote: 





estreeter said:


> Right, but as a DIYer you can also see that there is more to building an amp than assembling a parts stash and installing it into an enclosure ?


 

 Absolutely!
  Also it is not too hard to improved on something when you have a reference to compare with, and you are able to throw a bit more money into it. The worst you can do is duplicate the results with the same components. Then again sound preferences are to some extend subjective.


----------



## ETAHL

Quote: 





heidegger said:


> Which parts of the Matrix are better? The volume pot, rca inputs, headphone jacks, wires, insulation, power supply, power cable, toroidal transformer, capacitors, chassis? Somebody claimed the second version of the Matrix had an EI transformer, but, regardless of the fact that it's debatable whether EI is more desirable than toroid, I think it turned out it was an encapsulated toroid not EI. The casing supposedly cuts down on the magnetic field and on noise. Yet the BCL is dead quiet while I remember reading several reports that the Matrix had some slight noise when you maxed the pot.


 

 Some of the improvements I see with the Matrix:
  - One piece PCB construction
  - Input delay relays.
  - Power supply voltage fine adjustment pots.
  - Better quality power supply filter capacitors.
  - Better orientation of heatsinks
  - DIP socket for easy Opamp rolling.
  - Dual input with selector switch.
   
  The BCL has a larger transformer; gold plated headphone jacks, two of them; higher quality RCA jacks.
  They are a draw with the chassis, the BCL looks to have a better finish face plate. The Matrix has a heavier construction. Both uses Alps blue velvet pots. The resistors, capacitor, transistors and mounting hardwares look similar in quality.
   
  I think the switch to an encapsulated transformer and an one pieces PCB cure the hum. The new version of the Matrix is absolutely silent even with the pot at max.


----------



## purrin

Too much worrying about parts...
   
  BCL, LC, Matrix: none of them use premium boutique parts. Even if you loaded any of these amps up with the best low ESR caps, boutique film AC coupling caps, audio resistors, etc. the differences would be slight (though you could very well end up changing the tonality of the amp to something worse).
   
  A change of op-amp or a slight change of topology (class A, shunting coupling caps, etc.) would yield more results for the money spent.
   
  If you want something truly better that is a _significant _improvement (not a incremental improvement which is absorbed over time), move up to a higher class.


----------



## Mad Max

Best low ESR caps?  Panasonic FMs?  Their mids suck.   Boutique caps or Chemicons are a better choice.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Don't sweat the small stuff like components as he's saying.


----------



## purrin

Yup. 
   
  Let's face it, all of these amps are an op-amp (the mediocre OPA2132) input / voltage gain stage followed by a simple diamond buffer. This topology has a certain sound with certain strengths and limitations. All this speculation over which unit sounds better is just ridiculous e-peening (it's like saying my DIY Millet Minimax, CMOY, or EHHA is better than yours because mine uses all German capacitors whereas yours uses a combination of Japanese and American parts).
   
  Improving system synergy (with DACs and headphones) is more important - and this should be the purpose of any mods or tweaks. Discussion of parts is pointless unless you know (or are willing to experiment to see) what the parts will actually do to the sound, e.g. removing input caps and direct coupling the input will increase transparency at the expense of less warmth. If you don't like the lost warmth, maybe you can, depending upon the stock caps, swap the ~400uF caps with Elna Silmics, or use a warmer op-amp, Ad inf.
   
  It's very likely that Mr. Lehmann put in a _lot _of time testing individual parts to voice his amp a certain way, but we don't know if his voicing will work with our own setups. In any case, it's not exactly rocket science to play with the parts, especially if a cloner has already taken the effort to copy the design. Evidently the M-Staged is voiced to be a little bit warmer than BCL?
   
  If there's any reason to favor BCL, do it because it's the original and not a blatant rip-off or very slight modification of Lehmann's IP - particularly the PCB layout and cap arrangements.


----------



## Heidegger

Quote: 





etahl said:


> Some of the improvements I see with the Matrix:
> - One piece PCB construction
> - Input delay relays.
> - Power supply voltage fine adjustment pots.
> ...


 

 I rather have the better headphone and RCA jacks than the one piece board or most of what you mentioned. How can you tell by the photos that the Matrix has better power supply filter capacitors? As for the heatsinks, I can tell you that my BCL barely gets warm even after hours of use, whereas I think I recall people being freaked out about their Matrix or Lovely Cube getting "really hot" -- even the pot. The DIP socket is great if you're a roller. (I'm not.) The dual imput is nice, but personally I much rather have the dual headphone jacks so that two people can listen at the same time. I also have the USB model with the onboard DAC. Sure, it's not the best DAC in the world, but it's fine, and it makes the BCL super portable, much more so than my headroom micro amp+DAC stack, especially since the micro has the external power brick, which was a royal pain.


----------



## Heidegger

Quote: 





purrin said:


> *Yup. *
> 
> *Let's face it, all of these amps are an op-amp (the mediocre OPA2132) input / voltage gain stage followed by a simple diamond buffer. This topology has a certain sound with certain strengths and limitations. All this speculation over which unit sounds better is just ridiculous e-peening (it's like saying my DIY Millet Minimax, CMOY, or EHHA is better than yours because mine uses all German capacitors whereas yours uses a combination of Japanese and American parts).*
> 
> ...


 

 ~ Yeah, only I didn't say that my Lehmann sounded better. I even granted that the modded clones _could_ sound better. I was taking issue with assertions about overall build quality. (Did you mean "e-preening"?) On the other hand, there are assertions both on this thread and in the LC thread that the clones sound better than the BCL. Yet when I looked at the threads more closely I found that virtually nobody had actually listened to the BCL, and of the one or two that had (Aspenx and FlukeII) the verdict was actually in favor -- even if slightly -- of the BCL. Yet even just a few posts back when I asked which amp sounded better the stock answer I got was that the consensus in order of rank was 1. LC, 2. Matrix, 3. BCL. My answer to which is: Not according to the two people who actually heard the BCL. I tend to agree with you that there is probably little difference between them soundwise and once you mod them the clones may even sound better, but I want to see an actual comparison, not unfounded assertions. Did you ever actually listen to a BCL or have one in your possession?
   
  ~ What I can tell you is that the BCL is not a warm, tubey sounding amp.
  
  Quote: 





purrin said:


> *Too much worrying about parts...*
> 
> *BCL, LC, Matrix: none of them use premium boutique parts. Even if you loaded any of these amps up with the best low ESR caps, boutique film AC coupling caps, audio resistors, etc. the differences would be slight (though you could very well end up changing the tonality of the amp to something worse).*
> 
> ...


 

 I was looking for something to brighten my dark sounding HD650s. The BCL cleared them right up. The BCL drives them way better than the headroom micro, which I used for years on the assumption that amps don't make a big difference (boy was I wrong). There is way more texture to the music now, more presence overall. If anything, I would upgrade to the 800 and then upgrade from my Oppo BDP-83 to the BDP-95 before I replaced my Lehmann, with which I am very happy.


----------



## Heidegger




----------



## Heidegger




----------



## Heidegger




----------



## ETAHL

My opinion is similar to purrin. No one would refute the performance and quality of the Lehmann BCL. Without the BCL, there would be no Matrix or Lovely Cube.
  The only drawback is the price of the BCL. At close to $800, there is quite a profit margin (gouging), including R&D costs. It is not a complex 'rocket science' type of device, which leaves lots of room for imitations and copies. If the BCL retails for $400 or so, most people would have no problem paying the premium for the real deal. But for the price of Lehmann BCL = HD650 + Matrix, most people would go for the second option.
  With the option of Opamp rolling in the Matrix, you can choose the sound signature that suit you taste, for very modest cost. An AD797 or LM4562 might just be the ticket with the HD650.


----------



## sunneebear

Quote: 





etahl said:


> My opinion is similar to purrin. No one would refute the performance and quality of the Lehmann BCL. Without the BCL, there would be no Matrix or Lovely Cube.
> The only drawback is the price of the BCL. At close to_ $800_, there is quite a profit margin (gouging), including R&D costs. It is not a complex 'rocket science' type of device, which leaves lots of room for imitations and copies. If the BCL retails for $400 or so, most people would have no problem paying the premium for the real deal. But for the price of Lehmann BCL = HD650 + Matrix, most people would go for the second option.
> With the option of Opamp rolling in the Matrix, you can choose the sound signature that suit you taste, for very modest cost. An AD797 or LM4562 might just be the ticket with the HD650.


 


  I believe that is todays price.  I seem to remember the BCL being somewhere around $1200 when they first came out.


----------



## Waqar

The price in Norway for the bcl is 1600$ the usb version though, soo the choice too buy the Matrix m stage was a no brainer for me.


----------



## Yuceka

My Matrix is on sale if anyone is interested 
   
  Thanks


----------



## Waqar

Do you mind me asking why you sell it?


----------



## Mad Max

He fecked it up.


----------



## Yuceka

I no longer have my low impedance cans but only Orthos and I just got a Lyr. Otherwise I wouldn't sell it. It's a great amp that has served me very well 
  
  Quote: 





waqar said:


> Do you mind me asking why you sell it?


----------



## ETAHL

Quote: 





yuceka said:


> I no longer have my low impedance cans but only Orthos and I just got a Lyr. Otherwise I wouldn't sell it. It's a great amp that has served me very well


 

 How is the Lyr compare to the M-Stage with the LCD-2?
  Please give us a comparative review. TIA


----------



## Waqar

Quote: 





yuceka said:


> I no longer have my low impedance cans but only Orthos and I just got a Lyr. Otherwise I wouldn't sell it. It's a great amp that has served me very well


 


  Indeed a great amp.


----------



## Yuceka

LCD-2 are fairly easy to drive so I was quite pleased with them pairing with M-Stage but I always thought I might be missing something. My biggest surprise came with my other Orthos, Hifiman HE5 and M-Stage. I thought it wouldn't be able to drive them but lo and behold, it did. But again, I just wanted to use an amp that is specifically designed for Orthos than the Matrix. M-Stage is one heck of an amp and to be honest I think that's the best purchase I've ever made in my life... Truly a bang for the buck


----------



## mobayrasta

I have a matrix and my best friend has the BCL. I have spent a CONSIDERABLE amount of time with both. The mstage is a little more warm and the BCL is slightly more analytical compairing stock models. With a simple opamp change the MStage just outclasses the BCL by a long shot. I am using a class A biased LM4562 and loving it. It is amazing the diffrence between the two now. WIth the opamp changed to the 4562 the LCD's just sing. I also really love the combo with my Ultrasone 2500's, 780's , my Grado HF2's and even my Akai orthos. The Mstage is a great amp at any price. If anybody would like to drive on down to Southern MD you can get a free demo of both.
   
  What does my friend who owns the BCL say.................. "DAMN I feel like i got so ripped off". He is looking for someone to solder new opamps onto his BCL board. 
   
  I am looking at getting a custom ortho amp built by   http://jwnamplifiers.vpweb.com/ he can build something at the 500 dollar range that blows EVERYTHING else I have ever heard away. That is of course before you by tubes. I am having him build me an amp that does 10 watts at 32ohms should be a beast!
   
  Sorry got off subject. I would take the Mstage anyday over the BCL with only a simple opamp change bettering the 4 time more expensive amp by no small margin.
   
  Please BCL owners don't flame me. It is what I hear with my own ears and nothing else. I have spent months with both of them and that is my final decision.


----------



## Heidegger

Quote: 





mobayrasta said:


> Please BCL owners don't flame me. It is what I hear with my own ears and nothing else. I have spent months with both of them and that is my final decision.


 

 I would only flame you if I had listened to the Matrix and disagreed with your assessment, but since I've never heard the Matrix I can't compare it to my BCL and therefore have no basis on which to hurl flame balls at you. However, I don't feel ripped off since I love my BCL.


----------



## Waqar

Quote: 





mobayrasta said:


> I have a matrix and my best friend has the BCL. I have spent a CONSIDERABLE amount of time with both. The mstage is a little more warm and the BCL is slightly more analytical compairing stock models. With a simple opamp change the MStage just outclasses the BCL by a long shot. I am using a class A biased LM4562 and loving it. It is amazing the diffrence between the two now. WIth the opamp changed to the 4562 the LCD's just sing. I also really love the combo with my Ultrasone 2500's, 780's , my Grado HF2's and even my Akai orthos. The Mstage is a great amp at any price. If anybody would like to drive on down to Southern MD you can get a free demo of both.
> 
> What does my friend who owns the BCL say.................. "DAMN I feel like i got so ripped off". He is looking for someone to solder new opamps onto his BCL board.
> 
> ...


 


  This was some interesting comaprisons thanks for sharing.


----------



## Stef32

Is the M-stage enough powerful to drive an old AKG K340 ?


----------



## Pratt

Quote: 





mobayrasta said:


> I have a matrix and my best friend has the BCL. I have spent a CONSIDERABLE amount of time with both. The mstage is a little more warm and the BCL is slightly more analytical compairing stock models. With a simple opamp change the MStage just outclasses the BCL by a long shot. I am using a class A biased LM4562 and loving it. It is amazing the diffrence between the two now. WIth the opamp changed to the 4562 the LCD's just sing. I also really love the combo with my Ultrasone 2500's, 780's , my Grado HF2's and even my Akai orthos. The Mstage is a great amp at any price. If anybody would like to drive on down to Southern MD you can get a free demo of both.
> 
> What does my friend who owns the BCL say.................. "DAMN I feel like i got so ripped off". He is looking for someone to solder new opamps onto his BCL board.
> 
> ...


 

 Great findings. I don't at all doubt it, because so much high end stuff is overpriced, much is so because otherwise some consumers feel it must not be good because it doesn't cost a lot! Not that much in high end (or even "budget" hi fi) actually has to do with parts cost or anything else. In fact, I for one think the Matrix is overpriced...there is $100 plus at least (more like $150) pure profit even at it's $250 price. Personally I'd never pay more than $300 for a can amp as they are just not worth it to me. I think anything over $100 is a bit silly, but then, when I go out to eat and see a movie with my gf and spend $70 easily for such fleeting enjoyments, well, $300ish for an amp that sounds great and will last for years and I'll continue to enjoy doesn't seem all that bad.
   
  Thanks for the honest review.
   
  PS: I only have the stock M Stage and really need to try some opamps! I've been putting it off because I'm not a DIY'er and because even stock the M Stage sounds great (at least "good enough") for me. That and I'm skeptical as to just how much opamps can change the sound (sort of like tubes that do so only subtly imo).
   


  Quote: 





stef32 said:


> Is the M-stage enough powerful to drive an old AKG K340 ?


 


  Yes lol. At least it drives my 702's just fine. Powerful amp.


----------



## Waqar

It is simple too change the op amp it is just plug and play, and you can buy some op amps from coolfungadget(jtam) he has some op amps that you can try out.
   
  On the website he also have class  A biasing mode adapter and op amps that is already in class A. Hope this makes some sense
   
  Have a look for your self its easier that way
   
  And btw here is the link too the web page:
   
  http://coolfungadget.com/store/
   
  The sound changes if you roll op amps and i am really satisfied with the Lm4562 in class A and i am really in love with this amp now.


----------



## TitaniumDust

I used to be somewhat skeptical also about opamp rolling, but I'm not anymore.  Having tried different opamps in the STX and in the Matrix, I feel it does indeed make a big improvement depending on source and headphones.  IMHO, if one is using headphones without much soundstage (Grado 60 for example) then an opamp change would not be as big a change as it would be to someone with headphones that have a larger soundstage.  Even my Grado 325is shows a very nice improvement with opamp upgrades in the Matrix.  I upgraded to 2xOPA627AP biased into class A, and the biggest changes I noticed were that the sound was much clearer, more detailed, with better bass control and high frequency extension and linearity, and it simply sounds more like the music is all around me -- with the stock Matrix, the sound felt more confined to the left or right extremes and sounded a bit "fuzzy".  In other words, bigger, more open soundstage.  When I tried a LM4562 I plucked from my old Prelude sound card (non-class-A), it gave electric guitars this undeniable crunchiness that I just loved, though I definitely prefer the OPA627s overall.  My source is not world class either; simply a Musiland Monitor 02 US.


----------



## Waqar

Quote: 





titaniumdust said:


> I used to be somewhat skeptical also about opamp rolling, but I'm not anymore.  Having tried different opamps in the STX and in the Matrix, I feel it does indeed make a big improvement depending on source and headphones.  IMHO, if one is using headphones without much soundstage (Grado 60 for example) then an opamp change would not be as big a change as it would be to someone with headphones that have a larger soundstage.  Even my Grado 325is shows a very nice improvement with opamp upgrades in the Matrix.  I upgraded to 2xOPA627AP biased into class A, and the biggest changes I noticed were that the sound was much clearer, more detailed, with better bass control and high frequency extension and linearity, and it simply sounds more like the music is all around me -- with the stock Matrix, the sound felt more confined to the left or right extremes and sounded a bit "fuzzy".  In other words, bigger, more open soundstage.  When I tried a LM4562 I plucked from my old Prelude sound card (non-class-A), it gave electric guitars this undeniable crunchiness that I just loved, though I definitely prefer the OPA627s overall.  My source is not world class either; simply a Musiland Monitor 02 US.


 
  I almost had the same experience my self i did not think that a little op- amp could change the sound that much but it did on my Asus stx and on matrix in class a it was a major difference.


----------



## Vargtass

Can not wait for this amp to arrive. 
  I've ordered mine, and it's been shipped. Ordered the class a opamp today (627) together with a headphone stand as well. 
   
  Going to use the amp on my Denon 7000s, but I'm really pondering purchasing a pair of hd800 as well, just because I'm really curious about how they sound and what the fit is like. 
   
  Been a pleasure dealing with coolfungadget, and I'm really looking forward to getting the amp after all the rave from the forum


----------



## Pratt

Thanks guys, I know there is some kind of magic they put in these little boxes to get them to sound so good.
   
  One reason I haven't messed with the opamp swamp is because there is so many options and I keep hearing class a is the best, but frankly I have no idea what that even means besides that it requires a mod to the amp. I don't want to solder, although it seems they are plug and play, like, as said, you attach an adapter and then try a class a opamp. But then I would not know which opamp(s) is generally regarded as the best without reading dozens of pages in here. Although I guess I could just try any of them sold on that site (I have known of it, just been putting all this off lol). 
   
  I've got to start some investigation. I like clarity and detail above all else, and don't like coloration or "warmth" much (the stock Matrix sounds a bit warm, yet still neutral, somehow "musical" with still being pretty resolving/transparent). Oh yea, my source is a DACMagic.


----------



## BlutoSlice

I don't have a scooby do what class A bias means either,  I just went for the Burr Brown OPA627AP with Class A Bias Mod from TAMs audio store , it was a bit of an impulse buy and normally I would spend an age researching but If Tam sells them I'm sure its a worth while purchase... also plug and play is my kind of Mod


----------



## BournePerfect

You won't be dissappointed, I think the stock m-stage sounds congested and veiled in comparison.
   
  -Daniel

  
  Quote: 





blutoslice said:


> I don't have a scooby do what class A bias means either,  I just went for the Burr Brown OPA627AP with Class A Bias Mod from TAMs audio store , it was a bit of an impulse buy and normally I would spend an age researching but If Tam sells them I'm sure its a worth while purchase... also plug and play is my kind of Mod


----------



## Bobcow

I'll have to try opamp rolling sometime then, I have been listening to the stock M-Stage for almost a month and am loving it so far. Never been much of a modder but if its as simple as plug and play then I'm definitely gonna give it a try.
  
  Quote: 





bourneperfect said:


> You won't be dissappointed, I think the stock m-stage sounds congested and veiled in comparison.
> 
> -Daniel


----------



## Pratt

So I guess what I need to do is to order the $30 627 opamp class a mod then on this page:

   
   
http://coolfungadget.com/store/index.php?route=product/category&path=39_46
   

 I guess the $20 one isn't plug and play? Or it is, but not a double opamp setup? Why would I need 2 opamps? Yea I'm confused and not a techie sorry.


----------



## ETAHL

The $20 dollar version is fine. The $30 one just uses DIP socketed version of the OPA627. Both work the same.
  
  Quote: 





pratt said:


> So I guess what I need to do is to order the $30 627 opamp class a mod then on this page:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## sluker

Quote: 





etahl said:


> The $20 dollar version is fine. The $30 one just uses DIP socketed version of the OPA627. Both work the same.


 
  All true. But it should be noted that the $30 version will allow you to try different op amps with the class A bias mod.


----------



## clams

Quote: 





pratt said:


> So I guess what I need to do is to order the $30 627 opamp class a mod then on this page:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 It's two opamps because they are mono opamps. Therefore you need two for stereo sound. The OPA627 is a mono opamp. Class A Bias uses a resistor to bias the opamp into class A. If you buy the adaptor you can plug certain opamps in to bias them.


----------



## Majestyk

It's funny reading the first half of this thread, vs the last half.  In the first half you have glowing comments about the M-Stage and in the second half, the amp doesn't sound all that great on its own and has to be upgraded.  I have to wonder if the V1 and V2 really are different sounding.
   
  Anyway, I have some questions:
   
  1)  Is http://coolfungadget.com (Tam's Audio) a legit site?  I notice it's cheaper to order from there, vs Ebay, and I just want to make sure this is actually CFG's site.
   
  2)  Does CFG declare these at the full value?  I'm in Canada and I can't afford to pay a dime more on this.
   
  3)  Does the M-Stage run hot?  I don't like buying electronics that run hot because they never last as long.
   
  4)  Right now I just have a pair of Sony MDR-7506 headphones and I'm wondering which gain setting to use with them.
   
  Thanks!


----------



## jtam

majestyk said:


> It's funny reading the first half of this thread, vs the last half.  In the first half you have glowing comments about the M-Stage and in the second half, the amp doesn't sound all that great on its own and has to be upgraded.  I have to wonder if the V1 and V2 really are different sounding.
> 
> Anyway, I have some questions:
> 
> ...




1. Yes.
2. I am flexible on that.
3. It runs warm. 60'C insides and 40-50'C outside. When room temp is 25'C.
4. It really depends on your ears. Try it yourself.


----------



## Majestyk

Cool, thanks for the super quick reply!
   
  Another question...Can I use the input 1/2 switch while listening to sources?  Sometimes I like to compare CD players and switch back and forth.  Will I get a POP noise when doing this?


----------



## BlutoSlice

I am more than happy with my stock M-stage v2 and have I only ordered the new ppamp class A bias mod out of curiosity piqued from the posts here and the headfonia write up..
   
  Upgrade SQ improvement claims must always be taken with a pinch of salt as placebo and other factors will be at play. £18 was cheap enough for a bit of experimentation and sometimes that's part of the fun with the hobby.
   
  Saying that I'm sure this mod will give the ol 'stage a nice boost.
   
   
  Quote: 





majestyk said:


> It's funny reading the first half of this thread, vs the last half.  In the first half you have glowing comments about the M-Stage and in the second half, the amp doesn't sound all that great on its own and has to be upgraded.  I have to wonder if the V1 and V2 really are different sounding.


----------



## Bobcow

Quote: 





majestyk said:


> Cool, thanks for the super quick reply!
> 
> Another question...Can I use the input 1/2 switch while listening to sources?  Sometimes I like to compare CD players and switch back and forth.  Will I get a POP noise when doing this?


 

 I can use the switch to switch between sources while listening without getting any pop sound or anything at all, it is fine.


----------



## Pratt

Quote: 





etahl said:


> The $20 dollar version is fine. The $30 one just uses DIP socketed version of the OPA627. Both work the same.


 


  Thanks, but what is DIP? lol

  
  Quote: 





sluker said:


> All true. But it should be noted that the $30 version will allow you to try different op amps with the class A bias mod.


 

 So the $20 is plug and play but the opamps are not switchable without soldering as opposed to the $30 one?

  
  Quote: 





clams said:


> It's two opamps because they are mono opamps. Therefore you need two for stereo sound. The OPA627 is a mono opamp. Class A Bias uses a resistor to bias the opamp into class A. If you buy the adaptor you can plug certain opamps in to bias them.


 
   
  Got you on the need for two, but I don't know what bias means, I guess to "change" the class? (into A in this instance).
  
   
  Quote: 





majestyk said:


> It's funny reading the first half of this thread, vs the last half.  In the first half you have glowing comments about the M-Stage and in the second half, the amp doesn't sound all that great on its own and has to be upgraded.  I have to wonder if the V1 and V2 really are different sounding.


 

 Yea, it is strange. I have the V1 M-Stage.
  
  Quote: 





blutoslice said:


> I am more than happy with my stock M-stage v2 and have I only ordered the new ppamp class A bias mod out of curiosity piqued from the posts here and the headfonia write up..
> 
> Upgrade SQ improvement claims must always be taken with a pinch of salt as placebo and other factors will be at play. £18 was cheap enough for a bit of experimentation and sometimes that's part of the fun with the hobby.
> 
> Saying that I'm sure this mod will give the ol 'stage a nice boost.


 

 Yea this makes sense. I hardly think my stock V1 is bad or "needs" upgrading, but if it will sound better for fairly cheap that will be worth it. If not, it will be $20 or $30 wasted, not tragic.
   
   
  So basically the best option is the $30 one...right? I just want to be able to plug it in and be able to switch opamps easily. (I don't care about the Moon or Sun ones). Sorry I'm dense on this, I'm not techie!


----------



## TitaniumDust

Don't get me wrong, I love the M-Stage stock.  I'd still take it over any amp I own or have heard in the past (I'm a bang-for-your-buck guy who couldn't justify the $$$ on an $800+ amp, or any other single component).  We all talk about how great opamp x is vs y, but its not nearly as big a change as, say, changing headphones.  Once you have your headphones decided on, opamp swapping is a great way to tailor the sound to your liking, at least it has been in my experience.
   
  I also wanted to say that I used OPA627APs from a well known retailer instead of the ones CFG supplied with the $30 adapter.  Perhaps I didn't burn the chips in as much as needed -- I did for 24 hours -- but I felt the ones I ordered sounded better than the ones from CFG after the same amount of burn-in, and on the same adapter.


----------



## mobayrasta

Quote: 





titaniumdust said:


> Don't get me wrong, I love the M-Stage stock.  I'd still take it over any amp I own or have heard in the past (I'm a bang-for-your-buck guy who couldn't justify the $$$ on an $800+ amp, or any other single component).  We all talk about how great opamp x is vs y, but its not nearly as big a change as, say, changing headphones.  Once you have your headphones decided on, opamp swapping is a great way to tailor the sound to your liking, at least it has been in my experience.
> 
> I also wanted to say that I used OPA627APs from a well known retailer instead of the ones CFG supplied with the $30 adapter.  Perhaps I didn't burn the chips in as much as needed -- I did for 24 hours -- but I felt the ones I ordered sounded better than the ones from CFG after the same amount of burn-in, and on the same adapter.


 

  
  I could not have said it better. I love the stock M-Stage I have a V1. I just found it even better with an op-amp change. I have always liked the 4562 so of course I like it in the Mstage. It is a great sounding opamp if you like a more analytical sound. It really meshes well with the laid back LCD2's and gives them a little more high end energy. I would been pefectly happy if I would have never changed the opamp, it is a GREAT sounding amp all by itself.
   
  Biasing an opamp into class A means it is always ready for huge changes in the music it is always operating at its best.  (easiest way I can explain it to people who are asking what it does.) It is not a huge change but still very very noticible.


----------



## svfoo123

Has anyone tried the Audio gd Earth opamp in the Matrix? If so could you write some impressions?
  Thank you


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





svfoo123 said:


> Has anyone tried the Audio gd Earth opamp in the Matrix? If so could you write some impressions?
> Thank you


 

 Check the previous pages.
  It's a lot, I know.
   
  I tried it for a bit.  It was okay.  It was an upgrade over the stock 2134, though plenty of opamps are.  It needs extension leads to fit in there.


----------



## luke2112

Regarding the Class A biasing mod - has anyone compared whether soldering resistors onto the opamp directly gives any sonic improvement over soldering the resistors to a DIP8 adapter then pluging the opamp into it?
   
  I recently purchased a second-hand M-Stage and I have a DIP8 adapter with 3.9K resistors (assuming 3.9K, as it was originally purchased from CFG) and I have some LM4562's on the way which I will switch out for the OPA627AU. Would there be any benefit in soldering new resistors to the LM4562 and skipping the DIP8 adapter? Or is there little to no sonic benefit?
   
  If I owned a soldering iron and could solder it myself, I'd just try it, but since I don't, I want to know if it's worth going to the effort.


----------



## Mad Max

It depends, but ideally you want components as close to the opamp as possible, sometimes right on its leads.
  Still, in the case of just moving components you already have closer to the opamp, nah, it won't really be worth the trouble, unless you decide to do other things with learning to solder as well like trying out all those nice SOIC opamps most others cannot or building your own cables, etc.


----------



## PhaedraCorruption

I'm sure this has been asked before, but a quick search in the thread revealed nothing, so I'll just ask here. Overall, would it be wrong to assume that the OPA627AP  would sound sonically superior to the LM4562NA? I will be using this amp with my Fostex T50RP.


----------



## Mad Max

OPA627, probably.


----------



## jeff119

Just got my OPA627 class A biasing from CFG.
  Took a while to install it.
  There is an noticeable improvement in the sound! especially the soundstage!


----------



## PhaedraCorruption

Just ordered the Burr Brown OPA627AP with Class A Biasing Mod


----------



## zibra

Im an owner of matrix m stage, very pleased with it, but can anyone compare it with another chinese product this time with tubes like darkvoice 3322 for example? or wooaudio? can anyone who compare matrix to other headamps tell me which product is generally "next step" from it? mainly for high impedance headphones (beyerdynamic dt880).


----------



## Mad Max

Isn't the DV337 it was compared against a better model than the 3322? Just a guess by the hundreds of dollars of price difference, lol.
  If you want a "next step", then grab a high-end amp.  M-Stage is just mid-fi or so, not high-end/hi-fi.


----------



## Yuceka

Woo Audio doesn't necessarily fall into the category of "chinese amps"  Although the owner may be Chinese or Asian, it's located in the US and they make superb amps that those Chinese amps or M-Stagel cannot really compare. 
   
  For your beyers I'd recommend an OTL tube amp or a hybrid, like those Dark Voices you mentioned, or Little Dot or a hybrid like Lyr which is very affordable and awesome  
  
  Quote: 





zibra said:


> Im an owner of matrix m stage, very pleased with it, but can anyone compare it with another chinese product this time with tubes like darkvoice 3322 for example? or wooaudio? can anyone who compare matrix to other headamps tell me which product is generally "next step" from it? mainly for high impedance headphones (beyerdynamic dt880).


----------



## zibra

I mentioned woo audio as another tube amp not chinese - I know its "nationality" )
  I forgot there was comparision to 337..
  What is hi end tube headphone amp for example I can look for in future? about little dot or lyr... I dont want something similiar to matrix, I want step ahead!


----------



## Yuceka

Quote: 





zibra said:


> I mentioned woo audio as another tube amp not chinese - I know its "nationality" )
> I forgot there was comparision to 337..
> What is hi end tube headphone amp for example I can look for in future? about little dot or lyr... I dont want something similiar to matrix, I want step ahead!


 

 Well it depends on how much you're willing to spend. I believe Skylab did an excellent review of different tube amps, you might want to look into that and match that with your budget 
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/402585/review-summary-a-ranking-of-29-tube-and-tube-hybrid-headphone-amps


----------



## zibra

tahnk you but that doesnt hyelp me much. for example darkvoice337 is "classified" on 6th place while review said matrix is, lets say, same sound quality. in that case its hard to justify spending 2-4k USD more for improvement which cant be noticeable for sure. maybe there are some non compromised DIY projects?
  Sorry for that OT in matrix topic, but im owner and thinking how can I improve sound in that area


----------



## mmayer167

woo i just joined the mstage owner circle, ordered it with the class a dual 627 setup. I'll be running a comparison to my ld 1+ hybrid once its here and i have some time to let the new toy jitters calm.


----------



## notoriousmatty

Should I buy the M-stage first and then the Mini-I later...say 6 months down the road?  Or the other way around?  Im using Beyer 880s 250ohm.  My sources are an xbox 360, ipod, and laptop.


----------



## Bobcow

Quote: 





notoriousmatty said:


> Should I buy the M-stage first and then the Mini-I later...say 6 months down the road?  Or the other way around?  Im using Beyer 880s 250ohm.  My sources are an xbox 360, ipod, and laptop.


 


  Your beyer's need amplification to sound their best, I would suggest the amp first and DAC later.


----------



## clams

Quote: 





notoriousmatty said:


> Should I buy the M-stage first and then the Mini-I later...say 6 months down the road?  Or the other way around?  Im using Beyer 880s 250ohm.  My sources are an xbox 360, ipod, and laptop.


 

 I'd go for the DAC first since it has a built in amplifier. Though the amp isn't the best it should be able to drive the Beyers decently. The m-stage would supplement the mini-i later with a more refined amplifier section.


----------



## roadcykler

Check out my signature. Interesting that one post says amp first and the next post says DAC. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  Quote: 





notoriousmatty said:


> Should I buy the M-stage first and then the Mini-I later...say 6 months down the road?  Or the other way around?  Im using Beyer 880s 250ohm.  My sources are an xbox 360, ipod, and laptop.


----------



## ETAHL

Quote: 





notoriousmatty said:


> Should I buy the M-stage first and then the Mini-I later...say 6 months down the road?  Or the other way around?  Im using Beyer 880s 250ohm.  My sources are an xbox 360, ipod, and laptop.


 

 Get the Mini-i first. It has a pretty decent built-in amp.


----------



## Bobcow

Quote: 





clams said:


> I'd go for the DAC first since it has a built in amplifier. Though the amp isn't the best it should be able to drive the Beyers decently. The m-stage would supplement the mini-i later with a more refined amplifier section.


 

 Yeah i forgot the Mini-i had built in amp as well, go with it first and the M-Stage later then


----------



## Heidegger

"There has been some talk and mention about how the Matrix M-Stage is a clone of the Lehmann Black Cube Linear amp. During my short evaluation of the Lehmann BCL, I get a more neutral and colorless presentation with the Lehmann, as well as fast transients and a lively sound. The Matrix M-Stage sounds quite different from that, as it has a strong warm coloration, and the sound is more relaxed. I don’t have the Lehmann right here, so I can’t A-B the two, but I’m quite positive that the two are different sounding amps. The design may be similar (I looked at the PCB photos of both amps, and they look similar), but any amp builder knows that different components can change the final sound signature quite significantly." Source:
   
http://www.headfonia.com/matrix-m-stage/3/


----------



## ETAHL

Quote: 





heidegger said:


> "There has been some talk and mention about how the Matrix M-Stage is a clone of the Lehmann Black Cube Linear amp. During my short evaluation of the Lehmann BCL, I get a more neutral and colorless presentation with the Lehmann, as well as fast transients and a lively sound. The Matrix M-Stage sounds quite different from that, as it has a strong warm coloration, and the sound is more relaxed. I don’t have the Lehmann right here, so I can’t A-B the two, but I’m quite positive that the two are different sounding amps. The design may be similar (I looked at the PCB photos of both amps, and they look similar), but any amp builder knows that different components can change the final sound signature quite significantly." Source:
> 
> http://www.headfonia.com/matrix-m-stage/3/


 
   
   
  The beauty of the M-Stage is that you can change the characteristics of the amp by changing the opamp. You can fine tune the amp to your headphones.
   
  Here is what I find with the opamps I tried:
  You want bright > AD797
  Not so bright/neutral > LM4562
  Warmer/neutral > OPA1641
  Warmer > OPA627
  All the above opamps are fast and lively. The brighter ones more so. Each also adds a slight 'flavor' to the sound, especially the OPA627.
  Throw in the 'class A' adapter, sound signature get shifted around and takes a bit of the edge off.
   
  The ones that I prefer with my LCD-2 is the OPA1641 or the LM4562 in class A.
  I enjoy the OPA627 flavoring, it is just a tad on the dark side for the LCD-2. My Grado SR80 sounds best with the OPA627.


----------



## Mad Max

AD797 bright?
  I have a pair of AD797 I bought from Digikey almost two years ago and I would never classify them as bright, not even in the M-Stage.  It's actually warm.
  Are you sure you have an authentic pair?


----------



## estreeter

Quote: 





mad max said:


> AD797 bright?
> I have a pair of AD797 I bought from Digikey almost two years ago and I would never classify them as bright, not even in the M-Stage.  It's actually warm.
> Are you sure you have an authentic pair?


 

 Can it not be both ? I guess it comes down to what you consider 'bright' - most here consider Grados to be both bright and warm.


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





estreeter said:


> Can it not be both ? I guess it comes down to what you consider 'bright' - most here consider Grados to be both bright and warm.


 
   
  Grados sport warm bass/mids and bright treble.
   
  AD797 is similar, except treble isn't bright or sparkly and lacks a little definition, giving it a "dark" character.  It is not rolled-off or lacking detail; quite the contrary, actually.  I would love it if it wasn't for its strangely "soulless" sound.  I also find this chip to be pretty serious business otherwise.  LM4562 is like a cheap, plasticky joke by comparison, lol!


----------



## mmayer167

My v2 m.stage showed up today. Ran direct comparison to the ld1+ with my favorite opamp and tube setup and found the following initial sq changes. The LD+ has a bit more power for the Thunderpants but its not as controled. This might be due to the SS vs Tube hybrid but it does sound nice to have such control and cleanliness over the sq. Bass is less boomy and doesnt extend as far as the ld with the mstage. In class A with 627ap op the amp is a detailed neutral treat
  Overall i like the mstage better but not sure im ready to give up that tubeness for ss. Really happy with this simple ss amp from matrix!  oh and the soundstage from the mstage is a welcomed change compared to the smaller stage of the ld1+. i'll post back if people want more thoughts as ive got more time with them.
   
  M


----------



## Jibbie

Hey I have had the M-Stage for awhile now, and am finally considering changing the opamp.  I'm thinking of getting the LME49860, but am unsure exactly what is needed for installation.  Is just buying one of those opamps enough, and all I have to do is stick it in place of the old one?  Are there adapters that I need?  Any help would be awesome.  Thanks


----------



## ETAHL

Quote: 





jibbie said:


> Hey I have had the M-Stage for awhile now, and am finally considering changing the opamp.  I'm thinking of getting the LME49860, but am unsure exactly what is needed for installation.  Is just buying one of those opamps enough, and all I have to do is stick it in place of the old one?  Are there adapters that I need?  Any help would be awesome.  Thanks


 

 The LM4562, LME49720 and LME49860 are the same opamp. They are a direct replacement of the original OPA2134. All you need to do is buy the chip, no adapter is needed. Plug and play. Make sure it is plugged in the same direction as the original. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  If you need to do the class A mod, you can buy the class A adapter and plug that on the socket first, then the opamp on top.


----------



## Jibbie

Can I find the class a adapter on ebay? I'm not really sure what the class A mod does, but I guess from what I've read that an opamp with the class A mod sounds better than if it wasn't.  I have no idea though.  Thanks for the help.
  
  Quote: 





etahl said:


> The LM4562, LME49720 and LME49860 are the same opamp. They are a direct replacement of the original OPA2134. All you need to do is buy the chip, no adapter is needed. Plug and play. Make sure it is plugged in the same direction as the original.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## ETAHL

Quote: 





jibbie said:


> Can I find the class a adapter on ebay? I'm not really sure what the class A mod does, but I guess from what I've read that an opamp with the class A mod sounds better than if it wasn't.  I have no idea though.  Thanks for the help.


 

 Strange, coolfungadgets use to sell it. They don't have it any more. Maybe it is too easy to make and he doesn't sell too many to make it worth his while. http://coolfungadget.com/store/index.php?route=product/category&path=39_46
   
  It looks like this.

  If you can handle a soldering iron, it is only a buck or two of parts to make. A DIP socket and two 3.9k ohm resistors.


----------



## critical d

Just picked up one of these amps and after one day, pretty happy with it so far.
   
  Just curious how some of you are wiring it up...  My DAC has a balanced +4dBu output, so when making cables, what's the best way to go into RCA for this amp?
   
  I was thinking using TRS on the DAC end and leaving the ring floating...  Does this sound right?
   
  Thanks


----------



## Dubwisee57

Hello there 
   
  I just ordered my Matrix M-Stage few days ago for my k701, will probably let a little review after some serious long hours listening


----------



## Jibbie

K701 was my first headphone, and its an amazing pairing with the Matrix.  You won't be disappointed. 
  
  Quote: 





dubwisee57 said:


> Hello there
> 
> I just ordered my Matrix M-Stage few days ago for my k701, will probably let a little review after some serious long hours listening


----------



## Jibbie

Also, does the LME49860 have a minimum gain setting for it to run stable?  I run the Matrix @ 0 gain with my Pro 900s, so I'm just curious if I'll need to bump it up to the 10db gain setting. 
   
  Thanks


----------



## ETAHL

Quote: 





jibbie said:


> Also, does the LME49860 have a minimum gain setting for it to run stable?  I run the Matrix @ 0 gain with my Pro 900s, so I'm just curious if I'll need to bump it up to the 10db gain setting.
> 
> Thanks


 


  The spec sheet for the LME49860 said it is unity gain stable. I ran the LM4562 and the LME49720 at 0 gain with no issues.


----------



## AlfBaxter

For anyone still rolling opamps with the M-Stage, I can strongly recommend the LME49720HA. It's the metal can version of the LM4562NA, and for some reason it's much better. The bass is richer and deeper, and the highs are more refined, but the overall sound retains the punch and clarity of the 4562. Very impressive - and it doesn't need class-a biasing, because the main reason for going class-a with the 4562 was to warm the sound up a bit, which this chip doesn't need.
   
  Far better IMHO than anything else I've tried, which includes OPA627, LM4562 and LME49860, all with various resistor values for class-a biasing. This guy is selling them on eBay, and offers excellent service: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110678957781


----------



## Jibbie

Interesting, I'll have to try it out.  @ETAHL, thanks for the response.


----------



## Vargtass

Ohai. 
   
  Have any of you had any issues with white-noise on the m-stage? 
   
  I swapped stock opamp for the 627 class a yesterday and everything was just awesomely smooth. When I powered on the amp today, I get horrible amounts of noise and it'sreally frustrating. 
  I have been trying out both the stock and 627 opamp and I get noise on both now. When I hold one hand on my amp and the other one on my dac, the sound mostly goes away. I'm very puzzled over this, as I havent noticed it before and I have every wallplug in my appartment groundwired. My EF-1 never did this - and when I plugged it in earlier today it displayed total silence. 
   
  Is it just the Matrix being VERY sensitive to currents? I know the system isnt the best in my appartment, but I have never experienced this before. What else could be wrong? 100% sure the new op-amp is inserted the right way - with the same mark on the socket as the opamp. 
   
  Any help / thoughts are appreciated. 
   
  Other than that - this amp sounds fantastic with the Denon AH-D7000s. I'm constantly blown away over how good it sounds, especially with the 627 class a. As soon as I can fix the "grounding-sound" I'll be happy as a hippo.


----------



## Vargtass

Seems swapping signalcables somehow helped me tremendous with the ground-noise. Don't know why - they'we worked flawlessly  up to now - but hey - whatever fixes it makes me happy. Back to being gobsmacked by the magic of this amp. It's THAT good <3


----------



## purrin

^ It's possible the op-amp could be oscillating. Bump up the gain a little if the problem comes back.


----------



## ETAHL

Quote: 





vargtass said:


> Seems swapping signalcables somehow helped me tremendous with the ground-noise. Don't know why - they'we worked flawlessly  up to now - but hey - whatever fixes it makes me happy. Back to being gobsmacked by the magic of this amp. It's THAT good <3


 


  Cables can do it to you. Keep them short and use decent cables. Some of the stuff you buy at the stores are questionable, even if they look nice and pricey.
  I just build my own using the stuff that professionals use. You can make them to the length you need and it is inexpensive to do. I like the Canare GS-4 cables and Neutrik RCA plugs.
  These guys carry all you need: http://www.redco.com/default.asp


----------



## Jibbie

Installed the LME49860 today.  I pushed it in a little too hard and was worried I bent some of the prongs, but the amp works just fine.
   
  Impressions:  Bass extends a bit more than the stock opamp.  Impact might be slightly slightly less, but the more focused and deep image of the new bass makes up for it.  The highs are a bit sweeter, which is perfect for my Pro 900s.  The Ultrasone's have some sharp highs sometimes, and the new opamp makes the highs a bit more realistic and calm (while still maintaining awesome extension).  The only other difference I can hear is the blackness of the background.  The new opamp provides a much more clear, black background to the music, enabling me to hear each instrument more clearly.  Consequently, soundstage seems to be a bit deeper/wider.
   
  These differences are subtle but noticeable, and for the 10 dollars I paid for 2 of them, the LME49860 is definitely worth it (which is good, because I totally bent the stock opamp when removing it haha).


----------



## Jibbie

Also, I've noticed that my albums have a much more noticeable difference between their volume levels.  Is this normal?  I usually always could listen to almost any album of mine without having to mess with the volume on my Matrix.  Now with the LME49860, however, some albums are louder and some are quieter.  Hopefully this is normal


----------



## Vargtass

Tell me more about this issue.
  My problems have come back - seems it wasnt the cables at all. 

 I still have huge amounts of ground loop noise, whatever gain setting I use. With more gain, the problem comes earlier. What I do notice is that the ground noise hum disappears if I turn the volume knob to max volume. Weird ... 
   
  I can also report that Im working with tamsaudio on this - and he asked me to open the amp and check solderings. Everything looks great inside, but me and my somewhat tech-handy friend cant find anything wrong. 
   
  So, any suggestions? I really dont want to sendt the amp all the way back to china to have it checked out - then back to Norway. I love this amp, I can't stand waiting for it for another month or so. 
   
  Help guys, let's brainstorm this and fix it


----------



## sunneebear

Pot grounding?


----------



## ETAHL

Quote: 





vargtass said:


> Tell me more about this issue.
> My problems have come back - seems it wasnt the cables at all.
> 
> I still have huge amounts of ground loop noise, whatever gain setting I use. With more gain, the problem comes earlier. What I do notice is that the ground noise hum disappears if I turn the volume knob to max volume. Weird ...
> ...


 


  Have you try another input source? A portable source like an Ipod would not have any grounding issues.


----------



## Vargtass

Quote: 





sunneebear said:


> Pot grounding?


 


  Could be. I'll try to check for it, and maybe change the pot if I can find something similar.


----------



## Vargtass

Tried both with and without source, plus different sources. Same hum, sadly. 
   
  Dunno if it makes sense, but the other day I lifted the front of the amp about 5 inches up in the air, something said "pop" softly and suddenly the hum disappeared. Could that be something with the pot? 
   
  Being an amp-detective is kinda cool, I gotto admit. I even have a backup-amp


----------



## ETAHL

Wiggle the input connectors and power connectors, both the outside and inside ones, to see if the problem is intermittent, It could be a cold solder joint at the connectors to PCB.
  Also turn the M-Stage over with the cover open and gently blow out the whole circuit board with compressed air, just in case there might be some tiny metal shavings that might have fallen on the PCB when you unscrew and open its cover.


----------



## purrin

You can try loosening and re-tightening the hex bolt (on the outside bottom of the chassis) that secures the transformer to the PCB. This fixed the hum issue for me.


----------



## Jibbie

Oh wow, somehow ReplayGain was enabled on Foobar when it previously hadn't been.  Turned it off and no more volume differences.  Wasn't the opamp after all


----------



## Vargtass

Quote: 





purrin said:


> You can try loosening and re-tightening the hex bolt (on the outside bottom of the chassis) that secures the transformer to the PCB. This fixed the hum issue for me.


 


  This suggestion by purrin "seems" to have fixed my amp for now. 
   
  I really tightened the screw, powered up the amp with stock opamp and with no source whatsoever, and heard NO hum whatsoever. Delighted by this, I proceded to install the 627 opamp and test again. The amp once again produced no ground feed hum, so I tested it connected to my dac, and I'm using it right now, happy as a little panda over the fact that the amp no longer produces any unwanted noise. Once again, it just delivers fantastic sound to my Denons. 
   
  I won't know for sure if the problem is permanently fixed, but I gotto say, things are looking very good. 
   
  I would like to thank every one of you that has contributed, and also to tamsaudio from whom I've recieved mails from regarding this. Top service! 
   
  Thanks everyone! Music awaits


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





etahl said:


> Have you try another input source? A portable source like an Ipod would not have any grounding issues.


 

 iPods actually help with grounding issues, lol!


----------



## ETAHL

Quote: 





mad max said:


> iPods actually help with grounding issues, lol!


 


  It is isolated, no AC ground loop issues running off batteries. Is that the better description you are looking for?


----------



## Mad Max

Sure buddy.  =p


----------



## kongmw

Quote: 





vargtass said:


> This suggestion by purrin "seems" to have fixed my amp for now.
> 
> I really tightened the screw, powered up the amp with stock opamp and with no source whatsoever, and heard NO hum whatsoever. Delighted by this, I proceded to install the 627 opamp and test again. The amp once again produced no ground feed hum, so I tested it connected to my dac, and I'm using it right now, happy as a little panda over the fact that the amp no longer produces any unwanted noise. Once again, it just delivers fantastic sound to my Denons.
> 
> ...


 

 I just got my m-stage today and same problem here. humming/buzzing at all gain settings with or without anything connected to it. I haven't yet tried connecting iPod to it yet but did swap a couple sets of cables. But again, humming/buzzing exists regardless of whether anything is connected to it. It comes as soon as the amp is turned on. I will try messing with the hex screw tomorrow, even though that means I'll have to lug it to school. Fingers crossed. I would hate to send it back to China...


----------



## kongmw

Quote: 





kongmw said:


> I just got my m-stage today and same problem here. humming/buzzing at all gain settings with or without anything connected to it. I haven't yet tried connecting iPod to it yet but did swap a couple sets of cables. But again, humming/buzzing exists regardless of whether anything is connected to it. It comes as soon as the amp is turned on. I will try messing with the hex screw tomorrow, even though that means I'll have to lug it to school. Fingers crossed. I would hate to send it back to China...


 
  wow okay, fixed my own problem by tightening that screw from the bottom of the amp. should'a tried that first before posting...


----------



## purrin

^ Heh, loose transformers... or other minor issues.
   
  LOL, _coolfungadget _should be give me a discount, gift certificate, or something for being his unofficial technical support and Class-A op-amp mod champion.


----------



## jtam

Feel free to ask when you want to purchase anything...but, I am not the only one selling Matrix stuff. Make sure only support my customers, -____-
  
  Quote: 





purrin said:


> ^ Heh, loose transformers... or other minor issues.
> 
> LOL, _coolfungadget _should be give me a discount, gift certificate, or something for being his unofficial technical support and Class-A op-amp mod champion.


----------



## Jibbie

Haha I love how manufacturers post in these forums.  Allows for entertaining exchanges like this one 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  
  Quote: 





jtam said:


> Feel free to ask when you want to purchase anything...but, I am not the only one selling Matrix stuff. Make sure only support my customers, -____-


----------



## mmayer167

^ ditto, lol


----------



## purrin

Quote: 





jtam said:


> Feel free to ask when you want to purchase anything...but, I am not the only one selling Matrix stuff. Make sure only support my customers, -____-


 

 LOL, I'll take you up on your offer one day. And I'll make sure to ask if they are a customer of yours.


----------



## gustav29

Hi all,
  Just picked up an M-stage in the market and sounds great with my K702s.  The only weird thing is this: it seems as if the RCA jack inputs are reversed on my unit. The left jack is pumping out the right side, and right jack is pumping out the left side.   Just wondering has anyone encountered this issue with the M-stage?  I’ve tried both source inputs on the Matrix and the same thing on both.  I also confirmed my source CD player by using 3 separate RCA cables, triple checking that the left output was indeed going to the left jack input, and the right output going to the right jack input. I also tested an older CD player as well just to double check another source, with the same result.
   
  Anyone have any ideas what could be causing this?  My only solution is to reverse the jacks, my source right output going into m-stage left, and source left output going to the m-stage right.  This works fine, but seems a little bit unsettling.


----------



## jeff119

i have the same problem on my m stage ever since i got it... I doubt it is something serious.
  Quote: 





gustav29 said:


> Hi all,
> Just picked up an M-stage in the market and sounds great with my K702s.  The only weird thing is this: it seems as if the RCA jack inputs are reversed on my unit. The left jack is pumping out the right side, and right jack is pumping out the left side.   Just wondering has anyone encountered this issue with the M-stage?  I’ve tried both source inputs on the Matrix and the same thing on both.  I also confirmed my source CD player by using 3 separate RCA cables, triple checking that the left output was indeed going to the left jack input, and the right output going to the right jack input. I also tested an older CD player as well just to double check another source, with the same result.
> 
> Anyone have any ideas what could be causing this?  My only solution is to reverse the jacks, my source right output going into m-stage left, and source left output going to the m-stage right.  This works fine, but seems a little bit unsettling.


----------



## BmWr75

Quote: 





gustav29 said:


> Anyone have any ideas what could be causing this?  My only solution is to reverse the jacks, my source right output going into m-stage left, and source left output going to the m-stage right.  This works fine, but seems a little bit unsettling.


 


  Yep, the jacks are wired up in reverse inside the amp.


----------



## gustav29

Wow.  Interesting.  Puts my mind at ease.  Thanks guys.


----------



## VanCitySound

Quote: 





bmwr75 said:


> Yep, the jacks are wired up in reverse inside the amp.


 


 That sucks.


----------



## Zafonic

Has anyone used the M-Stage with the Matrix Mini-i?  Would they make a good combination since from what I've read the Mini-i has a more tube-like sound while the M-Stage is more detailed.  
   
  Or is there a better amp that would blend with the Mini-i? Headphones would be Sennheiser HD 600.  
   
  Thanks


----------



## Dubwisee57

Quote: 





vancitysound said:


> That sucks.


 

 This is really strange that nobody point this out earlier.


----------



## mmayer167

My mstage is normal... right is right and left is left. hmm     I wouldnt worry though, something just got soldered backwards. just plug them in backwards and forget about it.
   
  M


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





dubwisee57 said:


> This is really strange that nobody point this out earlier.


 

 I do not have that issue with mine.


----------



## gustav29

I think in this thread including myself there have been about 4 who have stated they are reversed.  
  Looks like Bixby started it in post 1395.
   http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/475618/matrix-m-stage-amp-review-simple-cheap-and-excellent/1395#post_7209962
   
  I'm trying to forget about it because the amp sounds great!


----------



## mmayer167

^ agreed, fogedabadit! i still cant believe this thing is less than 300 bones, it sounds so dang good with all my pones and is amazing with my 96 24bit music in class A! best deal i ever got in hi-fi for sure


----------



## ninjikiran

Was fine on my unit.
  
  Quote: 





dubwisee57 said:


> This is really strange that nobody point this out earlier.


----------



## ETAHL

Must be the older M-Stages, where the inputs are hand wired. Human error? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  The new one are PCB mounted connectors. If they are wrong, they are all wrong. I have the newer ones, and the channels are correct.


----------



## Jibbie

Same
  
  Quote: 





etahl said:


> Must be the older M-Stages, where the inputs are hand wired. Human error?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## mmayer167

yea i have v2 with no problem


----------



## cloudlea

haha, i'm new here, this amp comes from china? so,i see "ems" on the top of box~~~


----------



## jeff119

It will be bad if mine is not the v2 version thus having the reversed channel problem.
  I hope Tam will address this issue.


----------



## ETAHL

Quote: 





jeff119 said:


> It will be bad if mine is not the v2 version thus having the reversed channel problem.
> I hope Tam will address this issue.


 


  Only way to find out is to open it up.


----------



## gustav29

Leave it to an average head-fi'er to have his source cables screwed up coming out if his DAC.  My M-stage is normal...  Left is left, right is right.  
   
  Sorry folks for wasting your time on this......man, feel like an idiot.  Time to enjoy this baby!


----------



## purrin

It happens. I did that with my Peak, until I noticed that the right channel RCA inputs, the ones marked red, were at the top of the amp instead of the usual bottom.


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





mmayer167 said:


> ^ agreed, fogedabadit! i still cant believe this thing is less than 300 bones, it sounds so dang good with all my pones and is amazing with my 96 24bit music in class A! best deal i ever got in hi-fi for sure


 


  LOL and it stomps that Asgard we both had. I think its a best buy for the beans


----------



## purrin

So you guys actually like it more than the Asgard?


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





purrin said:


> So you guys actually like it more than the Asgard?


 


  The matrix had life and musicality. The Asgard was blah and I thought in a league much less than the Matrix. I though the Matrix played well above its price point for a headphone amp and a best buy in every way.


----------



## mmayer167

^ agreed. The matrix is just that, musical, dynamic... throw in various synonyms here > _______   period.
   
  The asgard didnt sound bad.. but it lacked what i needed to keep listening to it day after day you know?
   
  in class A the matrix presents so much detail and resolve through my ad900 i cant imagine good dubstep/techno/whatever ( check out "Drum & Bass Arena - Evolution" if your up for a good ride, itunes has it) you want to call it more intriguing, yea the ad900 is bass shy but, forget about super punchy bass when you can hear all those goodies in the mid to high range with decent bass extension which this combo exhibits so well. I have been through many "mid-fi" amps and this one plays the best with everything by far.
   
  M


----------



## t69p

hello,
   
  yesterday i received my amp "the matrix  m-stage in silver" and I'm happy...happy...all is OK the inputs are correct and the sound is great.
   
 tony


----------



## BmWr75

Quote: 





alfbaxter said:


> For anyone still rolling opamps with the M-Stage, I can strongly recommend the LME49720HA. It's the metal can version of the LM4562NA, and for some reason it's much better. The bass is richer and deeper, and the highs are more refined, but the overall sound retains the punch and clarity of the 4562. Very impressive - and it doesn't need class-a biasing, because the main reason for going class-a with the 4562 was to warm the sound up a bit, which this chip doesn't need.
> 
> Far better IMHO than anything else I've tried, which includes OPA627, LM4562 and LME49860, all with various resistor values for class-a biasing. This guy is selling them on eBay, and offers excellent service: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110678957781


 

 What HPs were you using when listening to the LME49720HA?
   
  I tried it with Beyerdynamic DT-990 600 ohm cans.  It was so bright it was unlistenable.  Tried it in the Class A bias adapter and it was better, no more ear piercing highs.  The metal can gets pretty hot really quick when biased into Class A.


----------



## AlfBaxter

Quote: 





bmwr75 said:


> What HPs were you using when listening to the LME49720HA?
> 
> I tried it with Beyerdynamic DT-990 600 ohm cans.  It was so bright it was unlistenable.  Tried it in the Class A bias adapter and it was better, no more ear piercing highs.  The metal can gets pretty hot really quick when biased into Class A.


 

 I should have mentioned that, sorry - I was using HD650. I tried it in Class A too, and I think you're right that the treble gets less sharp, but in my case I think I liked it less - sounded a bit smeared. With the HD650 it isn't piercing at all, just very crisp and punchy. I didn't give it that long though, because of the heat issue. I may get a heatsink and give it another go. I guess this goes to show the importance of synergy.


----------



## fatal_crest

hi, recently got my matrix with opa627 class a bias mod (i bought a second-hand)
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  newbie here asking, which gain setting is the best when paired it with my dt880/600 pro ? i also use my ath ad900..which gain setting is the best?
  sorry, this is my first amp.. right now, its on the 18db, i had to raise the volume knob to 1~3 to make my dt880 sounds good (*at my hearing volume level) (ath at 10~12 clock). what i fear is messing with the gain setting and end up breaking my headphones.
  sorry noobs here


----------



## Ultraviolet88

Hi guys, my Matrix M stage was working fine till yesterday the blue LED died. Surprisingly the input1 and 2 are still working fine.Any idea if I can fix the LED, allows me to know if the thing is actually on or off. Opened up the unit and found nothing wron. Im using TAcima cs929 socket so i guess nothing should be blown. Another user daisengan experienced similar incident but miraculously his LED pop backed on again after few hours being on. Advice? Thanks


----------



## geetarman49

blown led is not unusual these days, even for the most expensive equipment/component - it happens. if cfg is your seller, ask him for a replacement led; otherwise check mouser, digikey, rs ..


----------



## Ultraviolet88

Quote: 





geetarman49 said:


> blown led is not unusual these days, even for the most expensive equipment/component - it happens. if cfg is your seller, ask him for a replacement led; otherwise check mouser, digikey, rs ..


 


  haha, i checked the PCB board how am i suppose to change the LED even if he sends me one new one, pull the metal pin out and solder? Well if it doesnt affect the sound i will just leave it then...wonder how it blew with 3 surge protectors preceding it


----------



## geetarman49

yep, u would need to remove the pcb from the chassis, desolder the defective led, replace with new one & resolder.
   
  i doubt that the led failed because of anything u did or an issue with your setup ... it was most likely a nominal part to begin with ... quantity before quality.


----------



## jtam

If you bought from me, I can send you some new LEDs and a soldering iron 
  
  Quote: 





ultraviolet88 said:


> haha, i checked the PCB board how am i suppose to change the LED even if he sends me one new one, pull the metal pin out and solder? Well if it doesnt affect the sound i will just leave it then...wonder how it blew with 3 surge protectors preceding it


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





jtam said:


> If you bought from me, I can send you some new LEDs and a soldering iron


 


  This is the main reason to buy from Jeffrey. Service. He has 100 percent feedback and he looks after his customers. My hats off to CoolfunGadget Great Seller


----------



## Ultraviolet88

Hi jtam,
   
  U guessed right, i bought from you.
  Shall send u an email 
  well havent soldered anything for years, just worry it may get spoilt if i dig around too much 
   
  Quote: 





jtam said:


> If you bought from me, I can send you some new LEDs and a soldering iron


----------



## clams

Quote: 





mmayer167 said:


> My mstage is normal... right is right and left is left. hmm     I wouldnt worry though, something just got soldered backwards. just plug them in backwards and forget about it.
> 
> M


 


  I noticed that you use the AD900. Does the m-stage improve its performance even though its an easy to drive pair of cans.


----------



## Emperor Jordan

First post for me on head fi!  (Been lurking around forever, but finally decided that the community is definitely for me)
   
  After reading most of this thread (took a looooooooooong time, but interesting read), I figured I'd jump on my first headphone amp since overall for the money it looks like its a lot of bang for the buck.
   
  Thought I'd ask some of you here a few questions about the m-stage, since obviously I don't have one yet and who better to ask than someone who owns one.
   
  I'm thinking about the v2 black, however I'm highly interested in opamp rolling and class a biasing.  Was wondering whats the difference between these two:
   
  1)  http://coolfungadget.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=83
   
  I figure the above is simply an adapter that you can put in your own op amps (2x of course).
   
  And this
   
  2)  http://coolfungadget.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=91
   
  The board looks slightly different than number 1.  Any difference here?
   
  Also was wondering if these two are what I need to get this baby rolling with 627's w/ class a biasing.
   
  1)  http://coolfungadget.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=54
   
  And
   
  2)  http://coolfungadget.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=91
   
  Or either of the ones from above with 2x OPA627's.
   
  Looks like it would run $280 shipped with the mod (which I would install myself, but no big deal).  Anyone order from his store?
   
  Thanks!


----------



## Satellite_6

I bought an M-Stage recently. 
   
  The M-Stage manual says "Class A" on it already, so what's the point of the mod? (pardon my ignorance, I don't understand what the biasing is all about)
   
  I was planning on modding it but it voids the warranty. . . bummer.


----------



## jtam

Yeah, email me please.
  
  Quote: 





ultraviolet88 said:


> Hi jtam,
> 
> U guessed right, i bought from you.
> Shall send u an email
> well havent soldered anything for years, just worry it may get spoilt if i dig around too much


----------



## purrin

Quote: 





satellite_6 said:


> I bought an M-Stage recently.
> 
> The M-Stage manual says "Class A" on it already, so what's the point of the mod? (pardon my ignorance, I don't understand what the biasing is all about)
> 
> I was planning on modding it but it voids the warranty. . . bummer.


 
   
  Output stage is Class A, but input/voltage gain stage technically isn't (unless you use an op-amp that is inherently Class A)
   
  The biasing is all about making the op-amp work more in single-ended mode (with its own internal transistors) which makes it sound better. The biasing IMO makes the amp sound more authoritative, detailed, and clear.
   
http://tangentsoft.net/audio/opamp-bias.html


----------



## DaNuS

Hello jtam,
   
    I sent an e-mail as well as a PM in regards to a question I had.  I was wondering if either had been received as I am trying to figure out what to do going forward to resolve an issue.  Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## Satellite_6

Quote: 





purrin said:


> Output stage is Class A, but input/voltage gain stage technically isn't (unless you use an op-amp that is inherently Class A)
> 
> The biasing is all about making the op-amp work more in single-ended mode (with its own internal transistors) which makes it sound better. The biasing IMO makes the amp sound more authoritative, detailed, and clear.
> 
> http://tangentsoft.net/audio/opamp-bias.html


 

 Hmmm, I guess I'll give it a try a year from now then. . . . ty


----------



## Dubwisee57

My M-Stage is arrived yesterday, no trouble, still on trying it


----------



## Emperor Jordan

Jumped the gun on an m-stage black w/ the opa627 class a biasing mod.  Lookin' forward to it 
   
  Anyone got a good DAC recommendation to go alongside?


----------



## geetarman49

i have no hesitation in recommending NFB-3 with dir9001 module at the $300 mark, or the slightly better NFB-2 (which is what i'm using) at the $450 level.


----------



## reiserFS

Did anyone change some internals like caps yet or install a discrete OPA? I wonder how much it could improve by doing that..


----------



## Emperor Jordan

Quote: 





geetarman49 said:


> i have no hesitation in recommending NFB-3 with dir9001 module at the $300 mark, or the slightly better NFB-2 (which is what i'm using) at the $450 level.


 


  Those look really nice, but I'd have to wait a bit before I can afford one lol 
  My wallet hates me.
   
  Quote: 





reiserfs said:


> Did anyone change some internals like caps yet or install a discrete OPA? I wonder how much it could improve by doing that..


 

 A while back (like way back) in this thread I think I read somewhere that purrin (I think?) was experimenting with just about modding everything inside from opamp rolling, to opamp rolling with class a biasing to cap removals.  I don't know much about that kind of thing (still new to most of this) but from what I remember he said it made a difference, how much I don't know.  The safest mod is definitely opamp rolling though (IMO).  Nothing that can really go wrong there... unless you like... well... snap a pin off (lol).


----------



## Sganzerla

I'm using Earth OPA, they need a *very long* time to sound the best, if anyone is thinking of using them, please be patient.


----------



## clams

I've used the Moon OPA and am now using the SUN V2 OPA. Both took at least 300 hours to burn in. They both do have greater soundstage than the OPA627 Class A bias mod though. Moon was a bit too smooth for me and I enjoyed the dynamics of the SUN more.


----------



## genclaymore

You try both of them with your AKG K702 Clams?  If so which one sound great on the AKG 702.


----------



## Bobcow

Quote: 





emperor jordan said:


> Those look really nice, but I'd have to wait a bit before I can afford one lol
> My wallet hates me.
> 
> 
> A while back (like way back) in this thread I think I read somewhere that purrin (I think?) was experimenting with just about modding everything inside from opamp rolling, to opamp rolling with class a biasing to cap removals.  I don't know much about that kind of thing (still new to most of this) but from what I remember he said it made a difference, how much I don't know.  The safest mod is definitely opamp rolling though (IMO).  Nothing that can really go wrong there... unless you like... well... snap a pin off (lol).


 


  The wait for an NFB-3 will be worth it though, my NFB-2 sounds great when used with my M-Stage


----------



## clams

Quote: 





genclaymore said:


> You try both of them with your AKG K702 Clams?  If so which one sound great on the AKG 702.


 
  I prefer the SUN over the MOON in general. The SUN sounds great with pretty much all genres. It's pretty unforgiving with bad recording with the K702. With poorly mastered music, the Moon may be a better choice.


----------



## Greeni

Hi Bobcow
  Did you get around to trying the M-stage with the Pro 900 ?
  I am looking for a tight SS amp to match the Pro 900, looks like the M-stage is a good candidate.
  Tone is important for me, I found that the Pro 900 has a colorless and slightly metallic tone which is aggrevated by amps already erring in that direction.
  Hopefully someone could shed some light on the tonal aspect of the M-stage.


----------



## Jibbie

I find the M-Stages slightly warm sound signature to be a good match with the Pro 900.  Bass extension is good as well, although not the best with the stock opamp


----------



## Bobcow

Quote: 





jibbie said:


> I find the M-Stages slightly warm sound signature to be a good match with the Pro 900.  Bass extension is good as well, although not the best with the stock opamp


 


  Yes the M-Stage is a great match for the Pro 900 if you want the best SS amp for the price. I agree that it is a slightly warmer signature compared to other SS amps.


----------



## Greeni

Thanks Jibbie and Bobcow for the reply. Anyone actually heard both the Matrix and a Ray Samuel audio amp. I have a RSA  portable amp and thought that the description people used to describe the house sound of the two are pretty similar...tight, slight warm, etc...I like the RSA signature but want more power, the matrix may be just my ticket at affordable price.


----------



## Mad Max

Would taller transistor heatsinks that can reach the top plate of the casing help improve heat dissipation?


----------



## Syltburken

I am a bit confused. Does Jeffrey Tam sell the second version of m-stage or not? It says so on ebay, but if I have got it right I don't think that the pictures are of the second version. Because the second version are silver on front and black on the rest, right? And on his own website it says nothing about second version, also the pictures there are not of the second version. Please help me out.
   
  Btw, I will want to use my headset for this sometimes, is there a line in for the microphone that enables this?
  And what is the diffrence between 120V and 220V versions?


----------



## geetarman49

AFAIK, cfg (jtam) sells 2nd ver.  2nd ver is avail with either silver or blk faceplate (unless that has changed).
  AFAIK, 2nd ver is distinguished from 1st by internal chng ... e.g. encapsulated xfmr vs exposed toroid...parts chges.. etc.
   
  can't help with your line in question....but 120v vs 220v => xfmr 
   
  hth,


----------



## Syltburken

Quote: 





geetarman49 said:


> AFAIK, cfg (jtam) sells 2nd ver.  2nd ver is avail with either silver or blk faceplate (unless that has changed).
> AFAIK, 2nd ver is distinguished from 1st by internal chng ... e.g. encapsulated xfmr vs exposed toroid...parts chges.. etc.
> 
> can't help with your line in question....but 120v vs 220v => xfmr
> ...


 
  Okay thank you very much!
   
  But what do you mean by 120v vs 220v = transformer? :S


----------



## geetarman49

what i mean is that unless they started using 'universal' xfmr, they have to configure the build with the proper voltage-enabled xfmr... so typically europe gets the 220v xfmr, while n.a. gets the 120v xfmr.


----------



## project86

I don't think I've seen anybody sell the 1st edition in a while. Except of course if you are buying a used one from the classified forum or something. But I'm pretty sure Matrix switched to the v2 long ago and nobody should have any stock of the v1 at this point.


----------



## zibra

I dont know if anyone mentioned it before, but have you tried burson audio opamp for matrix? Is it ok for its circuit? or there are better ways for modding it?


----------



## Mad Max

Too expensive.  =p
  Yes, it will work.  It will need extension leads if you have one already.
   
  For those $100 bucks you can buy a soldering iron, soldering materials, 2x1 soic-to-dip opamp adapters, order free opamp samples from TI, ADI, LT, Intersil, and National, and get the hang of soldering before putting together an LME49990, AD797 or ADA4627-1B module and get even better sound, lol.  You can also later kick up your M-Stage's performance some more with most of the modifications suggested in the Lovely Cube thread.


----------



## zibra

well, \i have changed diode to orange one and changed these 2 big blue capacitors. I have also tried with many opamps like ad797 ad8599 ad 8397 lme48960 opa2228 opa2604 etc, but many of them werent stable and reach high temperature. Im just curious if there are any other changes for making matrix even better. eventually where do I have to search for even bigger improvement as for headamp alone


----------



## Mad Max

I suspect the instability of high-speed opamps to be partly caused by the surrounding circuit not being all SMD.  The opamp socket doesn't help either for some chips.


----------



## purrin

Quote: 





zibra said:


> well, \i have changed diode to orange one and changed these 2 big blue capacitors. I have also tried with many opamps like ad797 ad8599 ad 8397 lme48960 opa2228 opa2604 etc, but many of them werent stable and reach high temperature. Im just curious if there are any other changes for making matrix even better. eventually where do I have to search for even bigger improvement as for headamp alone






   
  You can change or bypass the ~400uF power supply caps that feed the +/-15V to the output transistors and opamp. You can also change the output transistors. May make it sound different, not necessarily better though.
   
  Do remove the input capacitors (the big blue boxes and the corresponding little red bypass caps) and close the circuit with a wire. I'm surprised it seems that so few people have done this because the increase in transparency is more than any op-amp change will do. The stock caps really add a lot of warmth up the sound, so you will need to adjust other parts of the circuit if you like the slight warmness of the stock M-Stage. Make sure your source has no DC offset though - otherwise your headphones go "poof".


----------



## zibra

thats interesting, thank you. Ill think about it. I dont want to loose added warmth as I have quite bright headphones, but any advice for transparent and smooth highs is welcome. I just sacrifice matrix as experimental headamp


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





purrin said:


> ...  Do remove the input capacitors (the big blue boxes and the corresponding little red bypass caps) and close the circuit with a wire. I'm surprised it seems that so few people have done this because the increase in transparency is more than any op-amp change will do. The stock caps really add a lot of warmth up the sound, so you will need to adjust other parts of the circuit if you like the slight warmness of the stock M-Stage. Make sure your source has no DC offset though - otherwise your headphones go "poof".


 

 I have to leave mine in, FFFFFFF-
  I think you mentioned alternatives to those big caps at some time in this massive thread?


----------



## zibra

so that big blue boxed caps changed in my matrix  by other are INPUT caps right? I have good friend of mine who said he also removed bypass while changing those caps but didnt go in details with it. So what do you reccomend now? removing even these new boxed caps? what else for significant change?


----------



## purrin

Quote: 





mad max said:


> I think you mentioned alternatives to those big caps at some time in this massive thread?


 
   
  For the big caps, you can try some low ESRs: Panny FC, FM or Illinois Capacitor. For the six medium sized PS caps, I suspect you can try Elna Silmics to warm up sound (although I never did this with the M-Stage). I really don't think cap upgrades make as much as a difference as op-amp changes. Some cap changes can really screw up the sound though. On my unit, I simply bypassed the PS caps with small WIMAs soldered on the back of the board.
   
  Quote: 





zibra said:


> so that big blue boxed caps changed in my matrix  by other are INPUT caps right? I have good friend of mine who said he also removed bypass while changing those caps but didnt go in details with it. So what do you reccomend now? removing even these new boxed caps? what else for significant change?


 

 Here you go - what I did to the input caps:
   
http://www.head-fi.org/gallery/image/view/id/44034
   
  If you absolutely need the input caps C21/C22, you can try fitting in some boutique caps like Sonicaps or even the cheap cylindrical Daytons from Parts Express, and just remove the bypass caps in C23/C24. I've never liked boxed caps for DC filtering on inputs.
   
  After I replaced the input caps with wire, I just plugged in LM4562 into class A to warm the sound back up. Overall the end result was still slightly warm sounding, but not as warm as the stock - which was my desire anyways.


----------



## Mad Max

I meant the input caps.  Sonicaps, eh?


----------



## zibra

so generally what was the biggest improvement with removing these caps? better soundstage, transparency or what?


----------



## purrin

Transparency, which means soundstage too.


----------



## reiserFS

Just some head ups for users that use a HDAM in their M-Stage: Try soldering a 1uF 250v cap (used mundorf in my case) between the V- and V+, you'll be amazed how it literally transforms it into a beast.


----------



## clams

Quote:


reiserfs said:


> Just some head ups for users that use a HDAM in their M-Stage: Try soldering a 1uF 250v cap (used mundorf in my case) between the V- and V+, you'll be amazed how it literally transforms it into a beast.


 
  DId you have any problems fitting the HDAM in after you did this? Also was this the Audio-GD HDAM, and if so, which one?


----------



## Xymordos

I'm planning to get a Mono to Dual adapter and put some OPA128sm in 
  But Farnells out of stock...


----------



## reiserFS

I did this for a friend of mine, and there was still enough space available since the cap is pretty small (used a 400v one instead of 250v). Yes, I'm talking about the Audio-GD HDAMs. I can post a picture with detailed instructions if you're interested.
  
  Quote: 





clams said:


> Quote:
> DId you have any problems fitting the HDAM in after you did this? Also was this the Audio-GD HDAM, and if so, which one?


----------



## clams

Quote:


reiserfs said:


> I did this for a friend of mine, and there was still enough space available since the cap is pretty small (used a 400v one instead of 250v). Yes, I'm talking about the Audio-GD HDAMs. I can post a picture with detailed instructions if you're interested.


 
  That'd be great if you could! PM me or even post it in here as I'm sure others may find it useful. Is this mod compatible with all of the HDAM models (I have SUN and MOON but not earth)? Thanks!


----------



## reiserFS

I'm crossposting this from the Zero DAC thread. Yes, it's compatible with all HDAM modules. I recommend you to remove the poly box caps.
   

   

  
  Quote: 





clams said:


> Quote:
> That'd be great if you could! PM me or even post it in here as I'm sure others may find it useful. Is this mod compatible with all of the HDAM models (I have SUN and MOON but not earth)? Thanks!


----------



## Sganzerla

Dear reiserFS,
   
   I have some questions, hope you don't mind answering here on the topic, there may be other people who don't have knowledge in DIY (like me) reading this.
   
   Could you please post another picture showing exaclty the points where the cap is soldered?
   Would you describe what happens to the sound after this mod?
   Is there any difference between 250v caps or higher? And about these poly box caps?
   
   I don't really know what cap to buy on eBay, it looks like PIO are the choice for audio, correct? Would someone please recommend some sellers?


----------



## Dubwisee57

Hello there !
   
  Bad news, my M-Stage seems to be broken..
  My left channel doesn't work anymore, i try different gain settings and it changes nothing. The only sound i get is an awful crackling !
   
  Me and my 701 are crying right now, i'm really disgusted. (Fortunately, i've got my Marantz amplifer to use my cans..)


----------



## reiserFS

I noticed more resolution, soundstage and details after the mod and the low end reaches deeper as well. I will post a picture showing the exact points where you need to solder sometime tonight. You can use any MKP cap with a rating of 1uF / 250v or 400v although I recommend brands like Mundorf.
  
  Quote: 





sganzerla said:


> Dear reiserFS,
> 
> I have some questions, hope you don't mind answering here on the topic, there may be other people who don't have knowledge in DIY (like me) reading this.
> 
> ...


----------



## FinBenton

Anyone using this amp with LCD-2? How does it sound?


----------



## sluker

Not great. Narrow soundstage, and the dark signature keeps the highs of the LCD-2 subdued. I think the LCD-2's need more power. My vintage Sansui AU-717 does a much better job, as does my LF 339.
  
  Quote: 





finbenton said:


> Anyone using this amp with LCD-2? How does it sound?


----------



## Emperor Jordan

Just got my black m-stage in today!
   
  Build like a tank I must say.  However I don't know if its just me (probably, this is my first headphone amp), but I can't seem to get it to give me any volume at all.  I don't have an outboard dac yet, waiting to get one, but I just decided to hook it up to my macbook pro line out via 3.5mm to rca and the volume is almost inaudible.
   
  Volume on the mac is maxed out, so is the m-stage and its very very very quite.
   
  Something I'm doing wrong?  There must be.
   
  Thanks!
   
  EDIT:
   
  Despite my checking of my whole setup, it was indeed not me.  I opened up the m-stage to find the opa627x2 half plugged in (yeah, how it was still working I don't know).  I fixed it and its working perfectly fine now.
   
  Also noticed that its probably NOT a good idea to leave your headphones plugged into the thing while you flip the on/off switch (especially when you turn it off).  Its as if the massive capacitors discharge a megaton into the headphones.  They seem fine though, but a word of caution


----------



## BmWr75

Have you tried increasing the gain settings using the DIP switches on the bottom of the amp?  There are four of them.  Two for each channel.  I think thw owners manual contains a graphic that show how to set the switches for 0, 10, 18 and 20 dB gain.
  
  Quote: 





emperor jordan said:


> Just got my black m-stage in today!
> 
> Build like a tank I must say.  However I don't know if its just me (probably, this is my first headphone amp), but I can't seem to get it to give me any volume at all.  I don't have an outboard dac yet, waiting to get one, but I just decided to hook it up to my macbook pro line out via 3.5mm to rca and the volume is almost inaudible.
> 
> ...


----------



## Emperor Jordan

Quote: 





bmwr75 said:


> Have you tried increasing the gain settings using the DIP switches on the bottom of the amp?  There are four of them.  Two for each channel.  I think thw owners manual contains a graphic that show how to set the switches for 0, 10, 18 and 20 dB gain.


 


  Haven't tried those yet, but I plan to experiment.  Looks like I edited my post almost the same time you posted, but yeah the volume issue was solved by re-inserting the opamp.  (it was put in half way, other side of the pins were out).


----------



## Xymordos

You should really get a DAC for your amp rather than use the mac PO


----------



## Emperor Jordan

Quote: 





xymordos said:


> You should really get a DAC for your amp rather than use the mac PO


 


  Heavily looking into one 
   
  Money is slightly an issue atm, but I know I really need a DAC since its widely known that the headphone jack of any computer is terrible.  With that being said though, the amp has improved the lower frequencies quite a bit.  The bass is more punchy on my hd 598's, and the sound stage as wide as it was seems to have gotten even wider.  I would love to know what these sound like with a real DAC, I just want to make sure that when I buy a DAC, I get one that is good down the road if I ever chose to upgrade to higher-end phones.
   
  So far I've looked at a few DAC's, some of them seem to have built-in amps.  I'd really like a standalone one but you get what you can get.  The one's I've looked at are:
   
  - Fiio e7:  While this one has had fairly great reviews, I believe I can afford much better.  I need to do the m-stage justice and I just don't feel that this can do it.
   
  - Nuforce uDac-2:  Very small... but apparently the little guy gives quite the performance.  Not sure if its something I should jump on for down-the-road.
   
  - Apogee Duet 2:  First off, this thing looks damn good.  But its price doesn't.  At over twice the cost of the m-stage, I doubt the cost/performance ratio would be good for me, but I never know.  I've never had a DAC before, let alone a real good one.
   
  - Cambridge DacMagic: Looks great, quite a few reviews on the thing that give it a positive note but I'm hoping I can get away with cheaper than this (its quite expensive for me).
   
  And then there were some DIY one's that caught my interest, namely from AMB, the gamma 2.  Not sure where I looked but I thought I remembered it could be built for roughly ~$150-170 which would be in the sweet spot for me.  And I heard its fantastic at that price.  (Correct me if my price estimate is way off, its just what I "thought" I remembered).
   
  Any of the above sound good?  Open to more suggestions or reassurance on any of the above.
   
  Again, my current setup is basically:
   
  Macbook Pro -> Lossless -> Matrix M-Stage -> HD 598's
   
  My budget is in the range of ~$100 - $300 tentatively.  I would like to stay somewhere in this range but if theres something of mind-blowing value just outside or near this range I'm open to it.  (Just gotta get the cash).


----------



## jeff119

Quote: 





emperor jordan said:


> Just got my black m-stage in today!
> 
> Build like a tank I must say.  However I don't know if its just me (probably, this is my first headphone amp), but I can't seem to get it to give me any volume at all.  I don't have an outboard dac yet, waiting to get one, but I just decided to hook it up to my macbook pro line out via 3.5mm to rca and the volume is almost inaudible.
> 
> ...


 

 can anyone give advice on the bold statement?


----------



## geetarman49

my recommendation would be audio-gd's NFB-3 with the dir9001 module... a bargain at the price.
  
  Quote: 





emperor jordan said:


> .......
> 
> Any of the above sound good?  Open to more suggestions or reassurance on any of the above.
> 
> ...


----------



## Sganzerla

I don't unplug my headphones before turning it off. Until now not a single problem, but I want to know more about this question too.
   
  I'm using NFB-3 and Matrix+OPA Earth and I really like this combo, it is impressive, but one must no forget the other details (outlet, filter, power cables, interconnect, etc...)


----------



## geetarman49

many amps do not have turn on/off transient suppression & while the loud pulses might not cause immediate harm, this may have an impact on your headphones in the long run ... amongst other things, a lot depends on the sensitivity and robustness of the drivers. i don't unplug my headphones now either but i do make sure that the volume knob is turned down to "zero" before turning on/off my hpa.  this works for my setup ... ymmv.


----------



## Emperor Jordan

Quote: 





geetarman49 said:


> many amps do not have turn on/off transient suppression & while the loud pulses might not cause immediate harm, this may have an impact on your headphones in the long run ... amongst other things, a lot depends on the sensitivity and robustness of the drivers. i don't unplug my headphones now either but i do make sure that the volume knob is turned down to "zero" before turning on/off my hpa.  this works for my setup ... ymmv.


 


  Pretty much this.  I've found that if you turn the volume down to zero, you don't get the loud "pop" when the power switch gets flipped to off.  Like all high-end equipment, their probably built tough enough to take a beating (the loud pops) but when you spend this kind of money on your equipment it isn't much effort to take a few extra steps of caution to ensure safety to the headphones.  When it first happened I thought my drivers blew up (obviously they didn't but you get the idea).


----------



## geetarman49

a fair bit of gear is designed/built with little regard to electrical safety, personal safety or safety to associated gear.  we allow designers the excuse of pursuing minimalist zen approach when it is either incompetence, laziness or greed & we ourselves compound the issue by not insisting on a re-design before we go FOTM ...    
   
   
   
  but then again, maybe not 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  Quote: 





emperor jordan said:


> ... but when you spend this kind of money on your equipment it isn't much effort to take a few extra steps of caution to ensure safety to the headphones...


----------



## BmWr75

In the world of Hi-Fi it is always a good rule of thumb to turn amps on and off with the volume turned all the way down.  I've had some scary incidents where friends accidentally rotated the volume knob to max while dusting, etc.  Luckily no blown speakers yet.


----------



## kongmw

can anyone elaborate on the difference between the nfb3 and nfb2? from what I can gather on the audio-gd website, the nfb2 is superior mostly in power supply of the unit and brand name capacitors? the price difference is $150, or 50% of the cost of nfb3 itself....


----------



## geetarman49

i have the nfb-2 & the cost of the superior power supply is a big hit $-wise... difference primarily in caps, xfmr, and power supply design; fwir, the nfb-3 is sonically very close to the -2 so unless your equipment is sufficiently revealing or u can't rest unless u have the superior unit, save some $$ and go for the -3.  personally my ego wouldn't allow me to be satisfied with the -3 ... damn ego 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.
   
   
  Quote: 





kongmw said:


> can anyone elaborate on the difference between the nfb3 and nfb2? from what I can gather on the audio-gd website, the nfb2 is superior mostly in power supply of the unit and brand name capacitors? the price difference is $150, or 50% of the cost of nfb3 itself....


----------



## DaNuS

Just wanted to post a big thanks to jtam for a great customer experience.  I bought my M-Stage and opamp mod from him and the transactions were quick and smooth.  When I ran into a post-purchase issue, he went above and beyond to assist me.  When I'm ready to upgrade or add components I'll definitely remember this positive experience.  Thanks again jtam!


----------



## jtam

Thanks for supporting, DaNus. I got a blog set up. Feel free to read it at http://blog.tamaudio.com/
  
  Quote: 





danus said:


> Just wanted to post a big thanks to jtam for a great customer experience.  I bought my M-Stage and opamp mod from him and the transactions were quick and smooth.  When I ran into a post-purchase issue, he went above and beyond to assist me.  When I'm ready to upgrade or add components I'll definitely remember this positive experience.  Thanks again jtam!


----------



## Dubwisee57

Quote: 





dubwisee57 said:


> Hello there !
> 
> Bad news, my M-Stage seems to be broken..
> My left channel doesn't work anymore, i try different gain settings and it changes nothing. The only sound i get is an awful crackling !
> ...


 

 I forgot to mention that my problem is now fix ! (RCA cable was dead)


----------



## rmappita

Hi,
   
  I bought a Denon D5000 and a Cambridge DacMagic (Using the USB connection) . So I need an amp to use with the Denon and my JH13 PRO to get along with the DacMadic. I was thinking about getting the Matrix M-Stage, but I'd like you hear some opinion =)  What about the sinergy?
   
  Thanks,
     _Rodrigo_


----------



## BmWr75

I use the same DAC with my mstage.  Sounds good to me.


----------



## clams

My m-stage broke a few days ago after over a year of use. The left channel went dead. Sad day.


----------



## francisdemarte

Probably an easy fix if you know someone handy with a soldering iron.


----------



## clams

Quote:


francisdemarte said:


> Probably an easy fix if you know someone handy with a soldering iron.


 

 Would there be any specific area I should start looking at?


----------



## ETAHL

Quote: 





clams said:


> Quote:
> 
> Would there be any specific area I should start looking at?


 


  Start with the easiest, check the connectors and the connecting wires, and swap the op amp.


----------



## jtam

Deleted


----------



## Bigbuddha

@JTAM
   
  AWESOME !!! .. I am looking for a new amp/dac combo and seperates as well ... man my wallet hates me ...
   
  I was going to look at getting the matrix m stage and the matrix mini i together but this new combo looks pretty cool.


----------



## jeff119

I am looking to change my soundcard into a dac.
  Current setup : Foobar --> Auzentech X-fi Forte --> M stage --> k701.
   
  i narrowed my options to hrt music streamer ii+ and NFB 3.
  Guys, any idea which dac suits the m stage and k701 better?


----------



## Ocellia

Found that my M-Stage still didn't have enough power to really run my Wharfedale Isodynamics, even at 20 dB setting. So using it as a Pre-amp, into a power amp.(iPod cradle) First a 'Son of T' Sonic Impact.....STILL not good enough, so now into my (bought in 1980/upgraded last year) Hafler DH200 amp (100 Watts per ch!) Run the phones from the speaker outlets via an extension lead with phonos put on.
  NOW I have good sound! Delicate sounds, bass, all you need! And not surprisingly?
  Not easy to lug about though!


----------



## hearMotion

Quote: 





jeff119 said:


> I am looking to change my soundcard into a dac.
> Current setup : Foobar --> Auzentech X-fi Forte --> M stage --> k701.
> 
> i narrowed my options to hrt music streamer ii+ and NFB 3.
> Guys, any idea which dac suits the m stage and k701 better?


 

 The HRT I dont know sorry but if you do opt for the NFB-3 I can HIGHLY recommend a pair of AD797BRZ (on a Brown Dog adapter) for the M-Stage. I ran the full gamut of opamps for the Matrix out of an NFB-3 until the AD797BRZ and it was a "BAM - thats the one!" moment.


----------



## Aspvr

Anone knows if this page is legit?

 http://www.matrixelectronics.net/

 I want to order an m-stage but im afraid of counterfits

 Thx


----------



## project86

Quote: 





aspvr said:


> Anone knows if this page is legit?
> 
> http://www.matrixelectronics.net/
> 
> ...


 

 Looks kind of cheesy. They may or may not deliver a product at some point, but I wouldn't take a chance.
   
  This is JTAMs website:
   
http://tamaudio.com
   
  Highly respected seller.


----------



## pp312

Quote: 





project86 said:


> Looks kind of cheesy. They may or may not deliver a product at some point, but I wouldn't take a chance.
> 
> This is JTAMs website:
> 
> ...


 

 Not sure I'd describe that website as "cheesy"; I thought it looked very professional. I've just ordered an M-Stage from HLLYAUDIO, who claim to be the "Authorised Overseas Distributor" for Matrix, mainly because they offer the Matrix with a "free" T-Amp for $280 all up. They seem quite genuine (and actually speak a comprehensible English, as I've just had an email from them); whereas other M-Stage sellers seem to be proliferating like mushrooms and look somewhat less genuine, despite (or because of?) cheap prices. However, I have no info to suggest anybody's ripping anybody off. All could be completely genuine and reliable for all I know. My main concern at this stage is reliability of the product, as I've heard of a couple of instances where units have arrived with one channel dead. It's a long way back to China, even from Oz....


----------



## GtrBMart

Quote: 





aspvr said:


> Anone knows if this page is legit?
> 
> http://www.matrixelectronics.net/
> 
> ...


 

 I was similarly worried since it took me forever to find their website.


----------



## project86

Quote: 





pp312 said:


> Not sure I'd describe that website as "cheesy"; I thought it looked very professional. I've just ordered an M-Stage from HLLYAUDIO, who claim to be the "Authorised Overseas Distributor" for Matrix, mainly because they offer the Matrix with a "free" T-Amp for $280 all up. They seem quite genuine (and actually speak a comprehensible English, as I've just had an email from them); whereas other M-Stage sellers seem to be proliferating like mushrooms and look somewhat less genuine, despite (or because of?) cheap prices. However, I have no info to suggest anybody's ripping anybody off. All could be completely genuine and reliable for all I know. My main concern at this stage is reliability of the product, as I've heard of a couple of instances where units have arrived with one channel dead. It's a long way back to China, even from Oz....


 

 I used the word cheesy for several reasons.
   
  1) They lifted some of their descriptions straight from my review, without my permission.
   
  2) They obviously stole pictures from JTAM.
   
  3) They say things like "Matrix high-end DAC headphone amplifiers are built by the top handcraftmanship."
   
  4) Their privacy policy page says the name "hifidiyshop.com" as if they copied and pasted from there as well
   
  5) Their return policy page mentions LightInTheBox which is yet another website. Seems that they did a lot of "borrowing" when they setup their site.
   
  I'm not saying they are scammers. Maybe they are great people to deal with and just skimped on web design. But I certainly don't want to be the one to test that theory.


----------



## sluker

I ordered from David at HLLY and received a unit with one dead channel.
  He replaced it but made me pay for shipping back to him ($50). I did get the TAMP 20 and have used it with my HE5-LE's via speaker taps it's great for a free amp.
  But I have to say I was not happy to pay an extra $50 for a unit that did not work out of the box.


----------



## Aspvr

Well I followed project86 advise and bought a unit from Tamaudio.com lets see what happens.

 Another question
   
  Along with the Matrix M-stage I ordered a Beyerdynamics Dt990 Premium 600 Ohm, and a Asus Xonar Essence STX.
   
  My setup will be Xonar > M-Stage > Beyer DT 990.

 I don't know if this is the correct way to set this up
   
  I'm new to all of this so if anyone has any advice...


----------



## BmWr75

Looks right to me.


----------



## pp312

Quote: 





sluker said:


> I ordered from David at HLLY and received a unit with one dead channel.
> He replaced it but made me pay for shipping back to him ($50). I did get the TAMP 20 and have used it with my HE5-LE's via speaker taps it's great for a free amp.
> But I have to say I was not happy to pay an extra $50 for a unit that did not work out of the box.


 


 I can quite understand why you're not happy, and I hope I'm not soon similarly unhappy. Why these dead channels, I wonder? Someone here on the Oz StereoNet also complained of getting one with a dead channel, this time from Tam's Audio. Apparently he was offered return postage (bit fuzzy on that) but didn't want to wait umpteen (more) weeks for the unit to be returned and repaired; he wanted a replacement unit sent immediately while he returned the faulty one. Tam refused, and though I can understand why, I can also see the complainant's point-of-view. The fact is, this sort of thing shouldn't happen. The amps aren't THAT complicated; surely a short test prior to shipping wouldn't add much to the cost and would avoid a lot of bad feedback. It's so easy these days for a seller's or manufacturer's reputation to be damaged by just one thread or even one post on the right forum.
   
  Incidentally, $50 seems a lot even from the US.
   
  Also, I'd be interested in how you hooked up the headphones to the T-amp.


----------



## sluker

I would not necessarily blame the distributors, I can see it being un-economical testing every unit before shipping, and even if you did anything can happen while in transit.
  Unfortunately for me $50 is what it costs to ship anything outside of the US if you want tracking.
   
  To hook up the TAMP to headphones I use a "speaker tap" or otherwise known as a "pig tail". If you search the HE-6 and HE-5LE forums there are details on how to make one and several HeadFiers (Hi-Flight) make nice quality units. However, I would only recommend this for hard to drive phones such as the current crop of magnaplanar headphones.
  I primarily use this set-up with my HE5-LE's when I want them semi-portable. I would not recommend this with low sensitivity phones as it could easily blow the drivers if you get to happy with the volume control.


----------



## pp312

Just wondering if anyone has tried the M-Stage modded with an AD823. So far as I know the AD823 is a direct replacement for the OPA2134. Everyone seems to be concentrating on the OPA627 with no mention of any other op amps.


----------



## ETAHL

Quote: 





pp312 said:


> Just wondering if anyone has tried the M-Stage modded with an AD823. So far as I know the AD823 is a direct replacement for the OPA2134. Everyone seems to be concentrating on the OPA627 with no mention of any other op amps.


 

 There are lots of discussions about other opamps in the thread, besides the OPA627.
   
  I haven't tried the AD823, but I have tried the AD797BRZ, LM4562, LME49860, LME49720HA and the OPA627 + with all of them in class A biased. Their impressions are somewhere in the thread.


----------



## pp312

You're quite right: there is a lot of info here on op amps (though none of it very conclusive as everyone likes something different); I was just too lazy to search. I still have a couple of questions though:
   
  Why does everyone hate the stock op amp. Sounds great to me (with LCD-2).
   
  I'm confused about the gain. I thought going to a higher number meant increasing the gain, but as I go higher I need to turn the volume up higher. Have I slipped into a parallel universe again?


----------



## ETAHL

Quote: 





pp312 said:


> You're quite right: there is a lot of info here on op amps (though none of it very conclusive as everyone likes something different); I was just too lazy to search. I still have a couple of questions though:
> 
> Why does everyone hate the stock op amp. Sounds great to me (with LCD-2).
> 
> I'm confused about the gain. I thought going to a higher number meant increasing the gain, but as I go higher I need to turn the volume up higher. Have I slipped into a parallel universe again?


 

  
  There is no hate. The OEM OPA2134 is a fine opamp. It is just not exotic enough for most folks here. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  Some of the opamps I have listed go for over $20, that is 10 times the price of the OEM opamp. Still, that is chump change compare to the price of amps people buy around here. If you can squeeze just a tad more performance for $20, that is still a heck of a deal. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Make sure you are not being confused by the gain DIP switch diagram. The white box is the protruding part of the DIP switch. Maybe you have it backwards.


----------



## pp312

Quote: 





etahl said:


> Make sure you are not being confused by the gain DIP switch diagram. The white box is the protruding part of the DIP switch. Maybe you have it backwards.


 

 Yes, I do, and I think Matrix have come up with one of the most confusing illustrations in the history of user manuals.
   
  They've also come up with one of the most irritating volume controls. Smooth as a glacier and quite stiff to turn, it resists all but the most determined attempts to change volume. It's also virtually unmarked, so it's next to impossible to tell what position it's in even in a bright room.
   
  Otherwise, everything's sweet.


----------



## damaltor

Quote: 





pp312 said:


> Yes, I do, and I think Matrix have come up with one of the most confusing illustrations in the history of user manuals.
> 
> They've also come up with one of the most irritating volume controls. Smooth as a glacier and quite stiff to turn, it resists all but the most determined attempts to change volume. It's also virtually unmarked, so it's next to impossible to tell what position it's in even in a bright room.
> 
> Otherwise, everything's sweet.


 

 Totally agree on the volume control, I replaced the knob on mine with a "Goldpoint 1.1 Aluminum Knob", much better.


----------



## jeff119

Where did you get your AD797BRZ with brown dog adapter from?
  
  Quote: 





hearmotion said:


> The HRT I dont know sorry but if you do opt for the NFB-3 I can HIGHLY recommend a pair of AD797BRZ (on a Brown Dog adapter) for the M-Stage. I ran the full gamut of opamps for the Matrix out of an NFB-3 until the AD797BRZ and it was a "BAM - thats the one!" moment.


----------



## Riverback

A bit interested on the M-stage. Looks like a good replacement for the Mav D1's amp stage
   
Why was coolfungadget banned though?  Nvm, I saw the post 
   
  A question about opamp swapping, Is there any dc offset to worry about? or do we have blocking caps to save us from that?


----------



## RudeAmbassador

is there a newer newer version of the mstage?


----------



## project86

Quote: 





rudeambassador said:


> is there a newer newer version of the mstage?


 


 Not exactly. There is the original M-Stage as seen in my review at the beginning of this thread. Then there is the refreshed version, sometimes called v2, which is what you see being sold on eBay and other places (they don't sell the original anymore). And that's technically all there is.
   
  Unofficially, the new Matrix Quattro amp seems to basically be two M-Stages combined into a single chassis, for balanced operation.


----------



## dlaloum

Hi folks,

 

I have been using my Revox 3100 (beyer DT880/600 vintage 1985) for a long time, and most recently with my Matrix M-Stage.

 

Very happy with the sound...

 

lately I have been experimenting with my Turntable/Cartridge setup, and specifically with variable cartridge loading, which subtly (and sometimes coarsely!) alters the frequency response of MM / MI cartridges.

 

My issue is that I have been finding that through my main speakers these differences are audible albeit subtle - through the headphones there is no difference.

 

This appears to indicate that my HP ring is not sufficiently transparent to expose these differences.... and that therefore I can presumably get more from these headphones.... OR that I need to shop for something a notch further up.

 

I am looking for assistance as to what might either make my existing setup more transparent or alternatively what alternatives might provide the transparency/resolution I am seeking.

 

Please note this is NOT about warmth/coolness/neutrality or other aspects of frequency response "accents" that define the "character" of a setup, but its ability to resolve fine detail differences....

 

A couple of other things (before you ask!) - I run pure digital, that is to say TT goes to Phono stage goes to DAC, which feeds AVR, which in turn drives speakers. 

The AVR is not the constraint as through this chain the differences are audible.

When using the AVR as the HP amp, the differences are not audible (it has an internal 5532 with diamond buffer HP amp).

 

My Setup:

Turntable: JVC QL-Y5F (various cartridges)

Phono Stage : JLTI Phono (with custom loading via loading plugs)

ADC/DAC: Windows7 PC with eMu 1616m - connected to AVR via HDMI

Pre/Amp/AVR: Onkyo TX-SR876

Speakers : Gallo Ref 3.1

HP Amp : Matrix M-Stage (opamps 49860 with class A mod)

HP's: Revox 3100 (DT880/600-1985), Koss Pro4x, Sennheiser PCX450, Audio Technica ATH-AD700

 

Most HP listening is done via the M-Stage connected to the DAC out of the 1616m

Listening via the Onkyo TX-SR876 uses the Onkyo's DAC and amplifiers (either speaker or HP) - but speaker based showed up the differences, where HP based did not.

 

Any input gratefully accepted

 

thanks


David


----------



## BmWr75

Are you converting the analog signal from your TT/phono pre to digital and then back to analog in you receiver?  That doesn't sound right, but that is how your original post reads?
   
  When using the M-stage, are you plugging the phono pre analog outs directly into the M-stage inputs?


----------



## purrin

Quote: 





dlaloum said:


> My issue is that I have been finding that through my main speakers these differences are audible albeit subtle - through the headphones there is no difference.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Keep in mind that speakers can do things that headphones can't such as soundstage and instrument separation. This sometimes lets you discern certain kinds of differences including detail. However, since you are already able to hear subtle differences in your current signal chain, this leaves only the following:
   

 Your headphone amp
 Your headphones
   
  The Matrix is pretty good in the transparency department, but severely limited by the op-amp voltage gain stage and to a lesser extent coupling capacitors at the input. You can't expect world class transparency at that price. A fully discrete DC-coupled head-amp will give you more transparency.
   
  For headphones, if you want resolution and the ability to retrieve low-level information (sidestepping any issues of warmth, dryness, neutrality, tone, balance, whatever, etc.), try Sennheiser HD800, Sony SA5000, or maybe the HE6 or high-end STAX.


----------



## dlaloum

The M-Stage is direct connected to my 1616m DAC ADC....
   
  I usually listen to stuff from my server flac library....  the Turntable is present as part of my exercise of digitising the vinyl parts of the library - before getting heavily into digitising, I first launched into a research project to work out the best possible archival setup with which to digitise my records...
  To that end I found myself comparing a range of very nice cartridges - some of them are subtly different.
  So what I do is digitise an album - normalise it so level differences don't  taint my comparison, then listen to two or three different recordings of the same album
   
  That means that the Phono stage goes straight into the ADC, and the Matrix M-Stage goes straigh from the DAC.
   
  Purrin  - took your advice and had another listen to my Sennheisers (not quite HD800's - they are PCX450's) - sure enough they do show up some of the differences - not as well as the speakers, but they are audible.
   
  In some frustration I also took a multimeter to my Beyer/Revox HP's - one channel reads 590ohm (close enough) the other reads 1150ohm - not even in the ballpark.... seems like part of the problem is the headphones....
   
  Thanks for the input
   
  Bye for now

 David


----------



## purrin

Quote: 





dlaloum said:


> In some frustration I also took a multimeter to my Beyer/Revox HP's - one channel reads 590ohm (close enough) the other reads 1150ohm - not even in the ballpark.... seems like part of the problem is the headphones....


 

 Double check that. Make sure you are measuring (L -> Ground) and (R -> Ground) instead of L- > R  (L -> Ground - > R) which would be x2 the impedance of one driver. I did this once and realized I was having a brain fart.


----------



## dogwan

Does anyone have or know where I can get the schematics for the M-stage?
   
  I'm considering upgrading the resistors in the signal path. I've had good experience moving away from metal films to carbon film. After reading the LovelyCube thread it seems likely that some of the components may not be the highest quality or even possibly fakes. I know that is a dangerous inference on my part.  From previous experience with Chinese metal film resistors in components I think there is a hint of glare that can be alleviated.
   
  Also I'm wondering if there's other threads with more mods for the M-stage than this thread? I've perused this one from the beginning and it seems to mainly be focused on swapping Opamps.
   
  Thanks,
  Dogwan


----------



## MilesDavis2

For anyone using the M-Stage with a Beyerdynamic DT880 600 ohm, please let me know was the power from the M-Stage sufficient to power the beyers with plenty more reserve.  Thanks for your input.


----------



## castlevania32

Quote: 





milesdavis2 said:


> For anyone using the M-Stage with a Beyerdynamic DT880 600 ohm, please let me know was the power from the M-Stage sufficient to power the beyers with plenty more reserve.  Thanks for your input.


 


  yes plenty of power with the +20dB gain. People usually like dt880 with tube amp to tame the brightness of the headphone, but power wise the m-stage drives it great.


----------



## Sganzerla

The Meier Concerto was a lot better than my Matrix M-Stage with Earth HDAM on a brief test I've made, with DT 880/600.
   I think my next move will be the La Figaro 339, as Concerto was a little more to the bright side, something I don't want. I like tube sound too, and there are a lot of people saying good things about this pairing.
   
   By the way, I'm here to write about the capacitor mod in the Earth HDAM. I've just done it, removing the grey/white caps too, and yes, there is an improvement, less harshness on the highs. I used the PIO 160v 1uF, don't know if I'm risking my amp. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Let's see if burn in improves the sound too.


----------



## BmWr75

Quote: 





milesdavis2 said:


> For anyone using the M-Stage with a Beyerdynamic DT880 600 ohm, please let me know was the power from the M-Stage sufficient to power the beyers with plenty more reserve.  Thanks for your input.


 


  YES, great combo.


----------



## One Fan To Another

Hey, where are people normally getting their opamps from?  I got the Class A OP627AP from the usual place but what about the rest?
   
  I'm mostly interested in hearing the OPA1641.  I'd also like to know if the Class A adapter that came with the dual OP627APs that coolfunguy sells is useable with other opamps.


----------



## purrin

The dual-to-single Class A adapter from coolfungadget takes DIP (the chips with the pins that you can stick in and take out). I believe the OPA1641 only comes in surface mount, which require soldering.


----------



## Pratt

Is there any danger in biasing the M-Stage into Class A, as in driving it too hard? It already runs warm/hot; I don't want to fry it or cut it's life short! lol


----------



## purrin

Quote: 





pratt said:


> Is there any danger in biasing the M-Stage into Class A, as in driving it too hard? It already runs warm/hot; I don't want to fry it or cut it's life short! lol


 

 Only to the op-amp. Of course a catastrophic failure to the op-amp could lead to failures down the signal path. Most of the values you see recommended or implemented (as in coolfungadget's stuff) are fairly conservative and will keep the op-amp well within it's operating parameters.


----------



## purrin

Quote: 





dogwan said:


> Also I'm wondering if there's other threads with more mods for the M-stage than this thread? I've perused this one from the beginning and it seems to mainly be focused on swapping Opamps.


 
   
  Other mods have been mentioned, but I don't blame you since this thread has gone to 122 pages.
   

 Shunt the coupling caps - in other words, make the amp DC coupled from input to output (another BIG jump in transparency)
 Bypass the midsize PS caps (the 4x ~440uF that feed the output BJTs and the x2 that feed the opamp) with small WIMAs or similar under the PCB (extends treble and smooths it a tiny bit)
 Replace the midsize caps - you can select your choice of boutique caps (this may change the sound, possibly for the worse). Try different combos of  PS caps for the opamp and output transistor sections.
 Replace the big caps (this may change the sound, possibly for the worse)


----------



## Pratt

Quote: 





purrin said:


> Only to the op-amp. Of course a catastrophic failure to the op-amp could lead to failures down the signal path. Most of the values you see recommended or implemented (as in coolfungadget's stuff) are fairly conservative and will keep the op-amp well within it's operating parameters.


 
   
  Ok, thanks! I've had the M-Stage for a year or so now but have yet to mess with it in any way. Partly that is because it sounds great to me stock, partly because I only listen to headphones 20% of the time anyway, and partly because I don't want to screw anything up, never get around to ordering anything, and am skeptical as to whether opamps make all that much difference in sound anyway.


----------



## MilesDavis2

Thank you.
  
  Quote: 





bmwr75 said:


> YES, great combo.


----------



## n00kie

Quote: 





purrin said:


> Other mods have been mentioned, but I don't blame you since this thread has gone to 122 pages.
> 
> 
> Shunt the coupling caps - in other words, make the amp DC coupled from input to output (another BIG jump in transparency)
> ...


----------



## n00kie

Nice listing! Do you think it's possible to handle this by someobody who's non-versatile in electronic system?


----------



## purrin

^ A good way to start is to construct your own CMOY:http://tangentsoft.net/audio/cmoy-tutorial/
   
  You'll learn how to solder and de-solder pretty good after that. Move up to a DIY PPA and you'll realize similarities in the circuits between that and the M-Stage - and start to understand how most amps work. I'm not the genius behind the Class A mod for this amp - I got it from the PPA schematic. And I believe this sort of circuit goes all the way back to Nelson Pass.


----------



## Sganzerla

I think I'll try the "remove the coupling caps" mod, but I need to make sure my NFB-3 DAC signal will not destroy my headphone, how can a person with very little knowledge (me) be sure this is not going to happen?


----------



## purrin

Quote: 





sganzerla said:


> I think I'll try the "remove the coupling caps" mod, but I need to make sure my NFB-3 DAC signal will not destroy my headphone, how can a person with very little knowledge (me) be sure this is not going to happen?


 

 Do you have multi-meter? Put it on VDC and measure the DC voltage from your DAC's outputs. Make sure the DC is zero or very close to it. A few mV should be OK. To double check, measure the DC component from the headphone out too.
   
  Also, after you remove the big blue and small red box caps, remember to run straight wire across where the blue caps used to be. Make sure you have some soldering wick handy to remove excess solder.
   
  Warning: this mod will change the tone of the amp - it will sound leaner.


----------



## Sganzerla

Thanks Purrin, I think I'll wait a little to see what my new powercords will bring to my system before trying this.
   
   My new Furutech GT2 USB cable brought everything a tone up, while improving transparency, so another step at this side may be too much for my system right now.


----------



## castlevania32

Looking for an upgrade of my m-stage. I actually have 2xOPA627AU class-a biasing mod from jtam's website. Would 2xAD797BRZ be the "best upgrade", or at least a substantial one ? Also, what is the difference between ARZ and BRZ and which one is better ?


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





purrin said:


> Other mods have been mentioned, but I don't blame you since this thread has gone to 122 pages.
> 
> 
> Shunt the coupling caps - in other words, make the amp DC coupled from input to output (another BIG jump in transparency)
> ...


 

 The PS caps for the opamp already have bypasses (WIMA MKP 0.022uF).  Replace them with Vishay MKP 1837 0.01uF.  Equivalent value caps might be slightly better, but Mouser doesn't have them in stock.  No more of those WIMA MKP's coloration and roundness, instead a cleaner, more precise, more neutral sound.
  I've forgotten to try them on the four output caps as well.
   

  Quote: 





castlevania32 said:


> Looking for an upgrade of my m-stage. I actually have 2xOPA627AU class-a biasing mod from jtam's website. Would 2xAD797BRZ be the "best upgrade", or at least a substantial one ? Also, what is the difference between ARZ and BRZ and which one is better ?


 

 I would suggest buying authentic DIP8 chips instead, and a socketed 2x1 adapter.  Not a whole lot of difference between the A and B grade.  I have the B grade purchased from Digikey a long time ago.
  Best upgrade, in my opinion, is ADA4627-1BRZ, but it requires soldering.  OPA602B kills it and 797, or so I'm told.  TI only lets you order one sample at a time however.  =\
  But with 602's 20ma output current, I'm a bit skeptical.  It is probably better in DAC output than in a headphone amp or preamp.


----------



## roker

I'm really interested in buying this, but I have one HUGE concern.
   
  You see, I've been running the LDI+ for the last couple of years.  
   
  I'm not going to complain about the horrible volume knob (Would putting in an alps have been that hard, Little Dot?)
   
  The sound is fantastic.  I went through a couple of amps till I landed on this one and I still have no plans to get rid of it.
   
  Ok, enough of the Preface.  Here's my concern:
   
  IS THE BLUE LIGHT REALLY ANNOYING?
   
  You see, my LDI+ has the brightest blue LED hitting me in the face.  I cover it up but then when I have people over I feel like it looks ghetto.
   
  Is the M-Stage's blue light less offensive or better yet, can I have them swap it out with a dim green or white one before they send it to me?  
   
  Any help would be appreciated.
   
  Thanks fellas.


----------



## kongmw

Quote: 





roker said:


> I'm really interested in buying this, but I have one HUGE concern.
> 
> You see, I've been running the LDI+ for the last couple of years.
> 
> ...


 

 I personally found it OK, but some here did complain about the bright LED shining. A common remedy is to cover it up a bit with a black marker.


----------



## geetarman49

x2; black marker/vinyl paint ... problem solved.


----------



## roker

Is there a recommended place to buy it?
   
  There's a bunch of guys on ebay, each claiming to have the latest revision.


----------



## imackler

Mad Max answered that question on another thread: http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/565361/matrix-m-stage-or-schiit-asgard/15#post_7654850


----------



## MarioImpemba

Quote:


roker said:


> Is there a recommended place to buy it?
> 
> There's a bunch of guys on ebay, each claiming to have the latest revision.


 

 Why not straight from the source:
   
http://www.matrixelectronics.net/matrix-m-stage-c-67.html
   
  $250 shipped.
   
  They have great/prompt customer service as well.


----------



## geetarman49

they may be reliable & offer a good price, but i seriously doubt that's the 'source'.  in fact there's hardly any verifiable information as to whom you are dealing with except for the url which contains matrixelectronics.net.
  no street info, no bank info, no hard contact info, no forum & more telling, no chinese links/pages ... unlike the info given by audio-gd on their website.
  
  Quote: 





marioimpemba said:


> Quote:
> 
> Why not straight from the source:
> 
> ...


----------



## RiceEatin2010GT

spent quite a few hours reading through this whole thread and im almost ready to pull the trigger with a class A mod from tams.


----------



## RiceEatin2010GT

after reading this whole thread lol tamaudio pointed out some pages ago that this site is in fact fake.  The real matrix website is http://www.matrix-digi.com/
  Quote: 





geetarman49 said:


> they may be reliable & offer a good price, but i seriously doubt that's the 'source'.  in fact there's hardly any verifiable information as to whom you are dealing with except for the url which contains matrixelectronics.net.
> no street info, no bank info, no hard contact info, no forum & more telling, no chinese links/pages ... unlike the info given by audio-gd on their website.


----------



## geetarman49

yep ... that one is more believable ... has ph. # contact & even some info on the new quattro products, and above all, chinese links & pages which is what you'd expect from a manufacturer based in china.


----------



## Optimus Praim

I ordered mine from here..
http://www.ampcity.co.uk/brands/matrix/matrix-m-stage-headphone-amp.html
  It may not be the cheapest price on the street but they let you keep the amp for a month and if you don't like it you can send it back to them and get a full refund..
  If the amp arrives damaged or somehow it is lost they will send you a new one.
  1 year warranty and if any problem occurs during that period then again they send you a new unit...
  Also their customer support is awesome,they responded to my emails within half an hour...


----------



## geetarman49

good for europeans, but not so good for us in n.a.   why? voltage spec.


----------



## Optimus Praim

Quote: 





geetarman49 said:


> good for europeans, but not so good for us in n.a.   why? voltage spec.


 


  You should move to Europe then..
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  Yes this seller has only 220-240v units so i guess it doesn't suit you.


----------



## WestLander

Or just get it from Tam Audio together with the Class A biasing mod and you're set!


----------



## henree

Just bought a used Matrix from a fellow head-fier. The problem is no sound is coming out from either input. If I turn the volume to the max I can hear a faint sound of music. Any suggestions?


----------



## Mad Max

Have you checked the inside? Is the opamp seated properly?


----------



## henree

Quote: 





mad max said:


> Have you checked the inside? Is the opamp seated properly?


 


  Yes that was the first thing I thought of. I also tried a few different plugs I have laying around and nothing.


----------



## Mad Max

Perhaps something is not soldered properly, then. I'd have to look at it myself. Did the guy tell you if he modified it?


----------



## roker

Am I going for too much power by replacing my LDI+ for this?
   
  I just want something that powers my D2000 to lush bassnesses, without muddling the vocals.
   
  Good clean sound.
   
  Plus, the kicker is if I get other top dog headphones I'll be able to use the same amp.


----------



## Jibbie

I am having a small issue with my M Stage and am hoping that this is a good place to find help in resolving it.  Anytime I use the amp, I can hear a small, high pitched humming through my headphones.  Its like the headphone jack is conducting something it shouldnt be and its causing a weird noise.  If I put a slight amount of pressure on the headphone jack when the headphone is plugged in (i.e. making it so the headphone jack bends down slightly) the sound goes away.  Any idea what I can do to stop this humming.
   
  Thanks


----------



## swbf2cheater

anyone have experience with the He-500 and matrix combo?


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





jibbie said:


> I am having a small issue with my M Stage and am hoping that this is a good place to find help in resolving it.  Anytime I use the amp, I can hear a small, high pitched humming through my headphones.  Its like the headphone jack is conducting something it shouldnt be and its causing a weird noise.  If I put a slight amount of pressure on the headphone jack when the headphone is plugged in (i.e. making it so the headphone jack bends down slightly) the sound goes away.  Any idea what I can do to stop this humming.
> 
> Thanks


 

 Reflow the solder joints on the jack.


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





henree said:


> Just bought a used Matrix from a fellow head-fier. The problem is no sound is coming out from either input. If I turn the volume to the max I can hear a faint sound of music. Any suggestions?


 


  Sounds like you need to get your money back if the amp does not work. I would contact the seller.


----------



## Riverback

Quote: 





henree said:


> Just bought a used Matrix from a fellow head-fier. The problem is no sound is coming out from either input. If I turn the volume to the max I can hear a faint sound of music. Any suggestions?


 

 Did you try flipping the gain switches? It looks like your headphones aren't getting enough juice


----------



## purrin

Quote: 





jibbie said:


> I am having a small issue with my M Stage and am hoping that this is a good place to find help in resolving it.  Anytime I use the amp, I can hear a small, high pitched humming through my headphones.  Its like the headphone jack is conducting something it shouldnt be and its causing a weird noise.  If I put a slight amount of pressure on the headphone jack when the headphone is plugged in (i.e. making it so the headphone jack bends down slightly) the sound goes away.  Any idea what I can do to stop this humming.
> 
> Thanks


 
   
  Are you running the stock op-amp? Did you swap op-amps? It sounds like oscillation. Try different gain settings or re-seating the op-amp.


----------



## Hawaiiancerveza

Could someone do a comparison of the bottlehead crack vs the m-stage?


----------



## draven5494

Quote: 





hawaiiancerveza said:


> Could someone do a comparison of the bottlehead crack vs the m-stage?


 


  Yes, I would be very interested to see that comparison as well.  My Beyer T1s arrive tomorrow and I was planning on using them with my m-stage, but the bottlehead crack+speedball has been getting a ton of positive reviews and it's relatively cheap to boot!


----------



## Hawaiiancerveza

ya it is.  I hope someone could give us some comparison of the both.  =)
  
  Quote: 





draven5494 said:


> Yes, I would be very interested to see that comparison as well.  My Beyer T1s arrive tomorrow and I was planning on using them with my m-stage, but the bottlehead crack+speedball has been getting a ton of positive reviews and it's relatively cheap to boot!


----------



## BmWr75

I have both amps, but have not done an A/B comparison.  The Crack is not compatible with low impedance headphones, sounds terrible with AKG K702s.  The M-stage could careless about HP impedance.


----------



## draven5494

Quote: 





bmwr75 said:


> I have both amps, but have not done an A/B comparison.  The Crack is not compatible with low impedance headphones, sounds terrible with AKG K702s.  The M-stage could careless about HP impedance.


 


  Have you tried your LCD-2s with the M-stage?


----------



## swbf2cheater

how can there be 125 pages and no decent reviews on this?


----------



## purrin

That's because _Coolfungadget _forgot to put a "Designed for LCD2" sticker on the amp.


----------



## BmWr75

Quote: 





draven5494 said:


> Have you tried your LCD-2s with the M-stage?


 
  The M-stage is at work with a set of closed cans.  So, don't think I've tried this combo.


----------



## project86

I was just using the LCD-2 with the M-Stage. It does a pretty good job - very good when you consider the price. If the only way someone could afford the LCD-2 was by going "budget" with a cheaper amp, the M-Stage would be a great choice. That being said, there is plenty of room for improvement by going up the amp ladder.


----------



## pp312

What sort of improvement would you envisage? I've just sold an M-Stage as I just wasn't inspired by the sound with my LCD Rev1. There was nothing wrong with it, it was very neutral, but just seemed flat with a distinct lack of sparkle (this is with the opa627 mod but without Class A biasing). I might think this was just the Rev1 except I have a Muse dac/amp that does put sparkle into it.


----------



## Hawaiiancerveza

well I'd be running them with the hd650 in any case =)
 Could you do a comparison?  =)
  Quote: 





bmwr75 said:


> I have both amps, but have not done an A/B comparison.  The Crack is not compatible with low impedance headphones, sounds terrible with AKG K702s.  The M-stage could careless about HP impedance.


----------



## ninjikiran

Not too great imo, for me there were some issues between the M-Stage and LCD-2.
   
  But thats not a knock on the amp, or amps in the price range.  The M-Stage just didn't mesh with it, technically you can run the LCD-2's on 0 gain but volume control is just plain awkward at 0 gain.(something I never noticed with my K702's, even though I primarily rain those at 10 gain)
  Quote: 





draven5494 said:


> Have you tried your LCD-2s with the M-stage?


----------



## Optimus Praim

Hi guys..
  My M-stage came yesterday and i am pleased with the outcome so far..
  I am using my Ultrasone DJ1 with it until Pro 900 arrives next week..
  Would you say that the amp will benefit from burn in or it is just what i get now..


----------



## project86

Quote: 





pp312 said:


> What sort of improvement would you envisage? I've just sold an M-Stage as I just wasn't inspired by the sound with my LCD Rev1. There was nothing wrong with it, it was very neutral, but just seemed flat with a distinct lack of sparkle (this is with the opa627 mod but without Class A biasing). I might think this was just the Rev1 except I have a Muse dac/amp that does put sparkle into it.


 

 I think you said it well - Nothing wrong with it, neutral but a bit flat. Moving up to the Matrix Quattro amp (which is very similar to the M-Stage but some minor tweaks and different component selections, uses OPA2604) gives a bit more energy on the top end which is a welcome improvement. It also seems to have more authority in the lows - bass drums give the impression of an an actual surface being hit by an object. With the M-Stage it felt more like the sound was just appearing in space, with less connection to the way it was made. 
   
  Sorry, I know this is not a very concrete answer. I'll say it again though - I feel that the M-Stage is a good starter amp for the LCD-2. It might just be that when I got the LCD-2, that's the first amp I tried, so I didn't know what I was missing yet.


----------



## swbf2cheater

Is this a forward sounding amp? Id like to pair it with the edition 8 but only if it is a forward sound as anything even moderately distant would ruin the ed8 completely.


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





swbf2cheater said:


> Is this a forward sounding amp? Id like to pair it with the edition 8 but only if it is a forward sound as anything even moderately distant would ruin the ed8 completely.


 

 No, but you can roll capacitors and get a more forward and intimate sound.


----------



## MohawkUS

Wait, Its not forward? As in it's laid back, or as in its neutral, soundstage wise?


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





mohawkus said:


> Wait, Its not forward? As in it's laid back, or as in its neutral, soundstage wise?


 

 Now that, I don't know at all.  I have no idea whether to qualify it as laid-back or neutral in the soundstage.  Replacing the stock opamp with ADA4627-1B certainly gave it a pinch more depth.
  It is certainly not forward like a portable amp.


----------



## roker

Definitely not interested in neutral.  I was hoping for something similar to my LDI+ but with a bit cleaner with more Prat.


----------



## PelPix

Hey guys.  I think the gain controls on my M-Stage were wired.  "10dB" is 8dB louder than "18dB," 20dB is very quiet, and 0dB is EXTREMELY loud.
  Keep in mind that the "On" text is correctly aligned.
  On the "18dB" setting, 11 o'clock is loud and listenable.  On the "10dB" setting, 9 o'clock is loud and listenable.


----------



## Optimus Praim

Quote: 





pelpix said:


> Hey guys.  I think the gain controls on my M-Stage were wired.  "10dB" is 8dB louder than "18dB," 20dB is very quiet, and 0dB is EXTREMELY loud.
> Keep in mind that the "On" text is correctly aligned.
> On the "18dB" setting, 11 o'clock is loud and listenable.  On the "10dB" setting, 9 o'clock is loud and listenable.


 


  I think you are right something wrong with the sticker that shows the gain switches,on mine on ''Odb'' it goes loud and listenable at 11 o'clock and on ''18db'' same loudness is achieved at 1 o'clock..


----------



## purrin

Quote: 





pelpix said:


> Hey guys.  I think the gain controls on my M-Stage were wired.  "10dB" is 8dB louder than "18dB," 20dB is very quiet, and 0dB is EXTREMELY loud.
> Keep in mind that the "On" text is correctly aligned.
> On the "18dB" setting, 11 o'clock is loud and listenable.  On the "10dB" setting, 9 o'clock is loud and listenable.


 
   
  LOL. Looks like the switches or the diagram was backwards.


----------



## PelPix

It's clear they're wired wrong.  I'm going to send in for a replacement, because if that's wired wrong, what else is?  I want to make sure everything is stable before I void my warranty by biasing to class A.


----------



## Optimus Praim

Quote: 





pelpix said:


> It's clear they're wired wrong.  I'm going to send in for a replacement, because if that's wired wrong, what else is?  I want to make sure everything is stable before I void my warranty by biasing to class A.


 


   
  Yes indeed they are all wired opposite...
  It is not a diagram issue...
  Now i also wonder if  something else is not right..


----------



## purrin

Hehe. Mine was wired OK. I don't know how you can screw that up since the DIP switches are soldered directly on the PCB. Maybe the diagram meant looking at the DIP switches the from the top of the unit rather than the bottom.


----------



## Optimus Praim

purrin i searched the thread and i found one of your posts that you describe the gain switch positions
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/475618/matrix-m-stage-amp-review-simple-cheap-and-excellent/555#post_6765480
  This is the exact way my switches work to apply gain but the stickers and the instruction manual is like the one below..
  So i guess it's a diagram mistake?


----------



## PelPix

Switching them both to "On" for me (up, and On is on the proper side) outputs 20dB gain.  They're clearly wired wrong.


----------



## pp312

I got confused with mine when I got it as I didn't realize that the white bits are supposed to be the switches, the black bits the background. Is that what's happening here?


----------



## WestLander

Mine doesn't have the wiring issues, but like *pp312*, I understood the white bits to correspond to the white switches. The gain has certainly adjusted accordingly...


----------



## purrin

Quote: 





pp312 said:


> I got confused with mine when I got it as I didn't realize that the white bits are supposed to be the switches, the black bits the background. Is that what's happening here?


----------



## pp312

Quote: 





purrin said:


>


 


  Not quite sure what this means, but it does seem to correspond perfectly to my multiple personalities. How did you know?


----------



## Frank I

I bought the Matrix M Stage in the FS from Galactus and should have it next week. Do the 30.00 Class A mod bias sound good with the Martix better than stock and does anyone know what tam is charging for shipping them. Thanks


----------



## Balmoral

Quote: 





frank i said:


> I bought the Matrix M Stage in the FS from Galactus and should have it next week. Do the 30.00 Class A mod bias sound good with the Martix better than stock and does anyone know what tam is charging for shipping them. Thanks


 

 Pretty sure that shipping is free for that Frank.


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





balmoral said:


> Pretty sure that shipping is free for that Frank.


 

  Thanks I will order one


----------



## WestLander

Quote: 





balmoral said:


> Pretty sure that shipping is free for that Frank.


 


  It certainly is free, ordered one last week and I'm waiting for it to clear out of Shanghai


----------



## castlevania32

Going from the 2xOPA627AU (jtam's website) to the 2xAD797ANZ, running both with the a-biasing mod here are my impressions :
   
  -vocal sound less pronounced ---> midrange less forward (disapointing...)
  -accentuated separation between right and left channel (give me headache)
  -more details
  -bass is more textured and separated
   
  does what i'm hearing make sense ?


----------



## rawrster

I'm a bit curious but does anyone know how the M Stage stock or biased to Class A sounds compared to the PPAv2? I'm thinking about getting these so i can use them with more sensitive headphones as well and with the gain switches that would be pretty useful.


----------



## PelPix

Quick question guys.  My m-stage is off and unplugged.  I am opening it.
  is anything inside this thing retaining a charge?  Do I have to avoid touching anything?
  And furthermore, what direction does this frankenstein-double-627AP-on-adapter opamp go?


----------



## PelPix

Whoops.  Double post!


----------



## WestLander

Quote: 





pelpix said:


> Quick question guys.  My m-stage is off and unplugged.  I am opening it.
> is anything inside this thing retaining a charge?  Do I have to avoid touching anything?
> And furthermore, what direction does this frankenstein-double-627AP-on-adapter opamp go?


 

 I just swapped opamps yesterday (a first for me) so I think I can chime in here. I turned the amp off and waited about 10 minutes before opening it up so the components could cool down a bit. For safety's sake I would wear a static wrist strap or at the very least ground yourself before touching anything in there. 
   
  The Franken-opamp slots in in either orientation. Just be sure to seat it firmly (but carefully!) in the socket - I didn't do it right the first time and nearly panicked when I couldn't get anything out the headphone jack.


----------



## henree

Quick impressions...Denon D7000 headphones
  Wasn't too impressed with the stock opamp. Bloated bass and lacking clarity. Put in the Opa 2107 that I loved with my previous Little Dot Hybrid+. Better clarity and warmer sound overall. But the sound stage was very narrow vertically. Tried the Lm 4562 opa and things are so much better. Good bass and excellent clarity. The detail the Matrix pulls out is so great. I have had the amp for two days. I will get back to you guys on saturday with final impressions.


----------



## PelPix

I have another problem with my m-stage.  This problem developed randomly and it existed before I switched the op-amps.
 My m-stage has a quiet buzzing and a beeping, exactly like a bad onboard sound card, when it's plugged into my computer.  I thought it might be the computer, but I Realized that if I apply gentle downward pressure to the headphone jack, it stops.
   
  I have determined that it IS EMI.  Whenever I touch the other end of my IC anywhere on my computer's IO panel, I get the sound.
   
  UNTIL I press very gently down on the headphone jack.  Then it vanishes _completely._


----------



## DomieMic65

Quote: 





pelpix said:


> UNTIL I press very gently down on the headphone jack.  Then it vanishes _completely._


 


  It sounds like bad contact too... check it out!!


----------



## PelPix

And the weird thing is, If I apply gentle downward pressure to the headphone jack on the m-stage, the noise disappears _THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE CIRCUIT._
 meaning that if I use the RCA outs on the back, the noise is there, but if I insert something into the headphone jack and press it gently down, the noise through the RCA out stops.


----------



## Jibbie

I had that exact same problem.  I wish I could help you fix it, but mine has stopped doing that on its own.  I'm assuming the headphone jack is coming into contact with something it shouldn't inside the matrix, but I honestly don't know.  My M-Stage still does it sometimes with other headphones, but has stopped doing it with my primary cans.


----------



## PelPix

http://soundcloud.com/user6043445/groundloopandashort
   
  (The waveform soundcloud shows is compressed and normalized.  It actually gets about 6dB quieter when I press the jack)
   
  Before this problem began, there was no musical EMI.  Just amp hiss and the ground loop, and it was below -110dB


----------



## Vargtass

1. Tighten the center screw on the underside of the amp. I had severe static noise / hissing coming from the amp before I did this. It solved everything. I'm pretty sure that's your problem. 
   
  2. Regarding the opamp-swap. It does NOT go both ways, even if it SLOTS both ways. You should clearly see a sort of "dent" on the opamp, and the same type of dent on the socket it's inserted into. So, look at both the replacement opamp and the socket. On one of the sides, there should be a sort of half moon empty, signaling what way is "up" and what way to insert the replacement opamp, EVEN if it correctly slots either way. This is pretty important. I don't really know what can happen if you keep it in the wrong way, but I'm pretty sure you don't want to find out


----------



## PelPix

I inserted the op-amp so that it was in the same direction as the other one was.  This problem has existed long before I swapped op-amps.
  Theoretically, putting this op-amp in backwards would cook the power coil in a few minutes.  It's been on for about 18 hours now, so it's probably in the right way.
   
  Tightening the hex screw was my first choice.  Nada.


----------



## PelPix

Guys!  I figured it out!
  The short is causing the emi is traveling down the IC and into the M-stage's CASE!  The reason I'm getting it in the signal is because most TRS plugs have metal rims!  When the metal rim comes in contact with the metal of the front panel, it happens!
  I solved it by putting a piece of PAPER between the rim and the front panel!
  But now we have to address the problem, why is it diverting current into the case, and _where_ is it happening?  At the RCA jacks, or somewhere along the circuit?


----------



## henree

http://tamaudio.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=39_46&product_id=83
  I plan to buy a local opa 627. So will the above adaptor be all I need to? I just have to plug the two opa 627's and I am good to go?


----------



## HaVoC-28

Quote: 





henree said:


> http://tamaudio.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=39_46&product_id=83
> I plan to buy a local opa 627. So will the above adaptor be all I need to? I just have to plug the two opa 627's and I am good to go?


 


  yes that's right ^^ , just be sure to put them in the right way  . Tryed it with my OPA627BP from farnell and it was a clear improvement (but currently using OPA moon instead .)


----------



## WestLander

Quote:


vargtass said:


> 2. Regarding the opamp-swap. It does NOT go both ways, even if it SLOTS both ways. You should clearly see a sort of "dent" on the opamp, and the same type of dent on the socket it's inserted into. So, look at both the replacement opamp and the socket. On one of the sides, there should be a sort of half moon empty, signaling what way is "up" and what way to insert the replacement opamp, EVEN if it correctly slots either way. This is pretty important. I don't really know what can happen if you keep it in the wrong way, but I'm pretty sure you don't want to find out


 

_Mea culpa_
   
  You are correct, the little "notches" on the opamp should face the back of the m-stage - towards the blue transformer and the rca jacks, that is.


----------



## szanella

Hey!

 I read a few posts back that www.matrixelectronics.net isn't the official matrix website.

 Nevertheless, do they deliver it?
   
  They've got a good price and is the only company that agreed on shipping by Chinese Air Mail to me (chineses air mail isn't taxed in my country).
   
  Should I go for it?
   
  Thanks!


----------



## PelPix

The other companies are refusing to ship by it because there's no tracking and it takes like 50 days if you get it at all.


----------



## geetarman49

_danger!_ will robinson, _danger!_
   
  Quote: 





szanella said:


> Hey!
> 
> I read a few posts back that www.matrixelectronics.net isn't the official matrix website.
> 
> ...


----------



## roker

Has anyone tried using this amp as a preamp for active desktop speakers?
   
  I don't know if I'm fully convinced this is the amp for me, but this would be a big plus if it was quiet and stable (balanced, but not as in balanced output/input) when it comes to volume control.


----------



## clams

Quote: 





roker said:


> Has anyone tried using this amp as a preamp for active desktop speakers?
> 
> I don't know if I'm fully convinced this is the amp for me, but this would be a big plus if it was quiet and stable (balanced, but not as in balanced output/input) when it comes to volume control.


 

 Yep. I regularly use them with my Audioengine A2s and they definitely tighten up the bass a good bit and give them way more punch than a speakers that size should have.


----------



## Monago

Question! I've removed the input caps, but find the sound *slightly* too harsh. Is there any other way to slightly increase warmth without putting the input caps back in?
   
  I don't know if the circuit design would allow this, but what about simply placing the 2 smaller input caps back onto the board?


----------



## purrin

Run a warmer op-amp. Change ~400uf PS caps all around to something warm sounding like Elna Silmics.
   
  Putting the small input caps back on won't work. You will just end up with a very hi-pass filter. The small caps are bypass caps to help out the big ones in the high frequencies. Another alternative: find other boutique caps to replace the big blue caps and don't bypass them with small caps.
   
  A cheap solution could be the Dayton Audio caps found on parts express. Almost anything is better than those box caps. I forgot the values you need - 1.5uf or 3.0uF? Just make sure it will fit or be prepared to use some creative mounting.
   
  Sorry it didn't work out. Hopefully I didn't forget to warn everyone about possible negative consequences of the cap removal / shunt mod.


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *purrin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> 
> ...
> Sorry it didn't work out. Hopefully I didn't forget to warn everyone about possible negative consequences of the cap removal / shunt mod.


 

 I'm not getting harshness or anything, probably from rolling/bypassing other caps, I think.  I'm not using any silmics either.


----------



## Monago

Quote: 





purrin said:


> Run a warmer op-amp. Change ~400uf PS caps all around to something warm sounding like Elna Silmics.
> 
> Putting the small input caps back on won't work. You will just end up with a very hi-pass filter. The small caps are bypass caps to help out the big ones in the high frequencies. Another alternative: find other boutique caps to replace the big blue caps and don't bypass them with small caps.
> 
> ...


 


  I appreciate the response, purrin! You did in fact warn about the potential risks of going entirely neutral, so I knew what I was getting myself into. It's better than it was, but I'd prefer just a smidgen more warmth in the sound.
   
  I also sincerely appreciate the cap suggestion! I'm about to order a few of those Dayton Audio caps right now (1.5uF). I'll tell you how it turns out once I have them here and mounted.
   
  Oh, and just to confirm; I assume these are the caps you were referring to?: http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=027-412


----------



## purrin

Or the high precision ones: http://www.parts-express.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?PartNumber=027-212
   
  At 31mm, they are not horribly big, but some creative mounting may be required. Get some small diameter shrink tubing to shroud the leads if necessary. Some extra alligator clips with small patches of foil attached to the leads of the caps will help dissipate heat while soldering (I don't know how experienced you are with soldering, but I melted quite a few components when I first started out with my too hot radio shack iron.)
   
  I generally don't believe in magic caps, but you want to spend a bit more: http://gr-research.com/sonicaps.aspx
   
  The fun is trying different things and learning.


----------



## Monago

Interesting....
   
  So instead of immediately ordering the new caps for my amp, I decided to look toward my source for the issue before coming to any conclusions. I said the amp sounded "harsh" in my initial post, but in fact, my source was the culprit. There was etch and grain in the treble, and I simply assumed 'this must be what neutral sounds like,' when in fact the warmer sound before cap modification was covering my poor source output. After some tinkering, the 'harshness' has completely disappeared, and I'm now hearing the clearest, most transparent sound I've heard in my entire life. It's incredible...
   
  To be clear, I do not believe in cables, or any other 'snake oil' solutions for changing sound.
   
  Edit: That said, I'd still like the sound to be ever-so-slightly warmer. I'll probably end up throwing in quality input caps relatively soon.


----------



## purrin

Quote: 





monago said:


> Interesting....
> 
> So instead of immediately ordering the new caps for my amp, I decided to look toward my source for the issue before coming to any conclusions. I said the amp sounded "harsh" in my initial post, but in fact, my source was the culprit. There was etch and grain in the treble, and I simply assumed 'this must be what neutral sounds like,' when in fact the warmer sound before cap modification was covering my poor source output. After some tinkering, the 'harshness' has completely disappeared, and I'm now hearing the clearest, most transparent sound I've heard in my entire life. It's incredible...
> 
> ...


 

 If you have a DMM (if you don't, just pick up something cheap from a Home Depot), check DC voltage at headphone outputs. Just in case your source is putting out any DC. I don't want your headphones dying.
   
  As far as cables, since you are now fully armed with a soldering iron, you can make your own $400 headphone cables. Watch the heat though when you solder wire on headphone drivers otherwise you will melt the voice coils. Get a cheap Weller soldering station where you can adjust temperature.
   
  This is awesome. You are now one of the few people on the planet who has actually had first-hand experience and knowledge of what caps do to sound quality.


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





monago said:


> Interesting....
> 
> So instead of immediately ordering the new caps for my amp, I decided to look toward my source for the issue before coming to any conclusions. I said the amp sounded "harsh" in my initial post, but in fact, my source was the culprit. There was etch and grain in the treble, and I simply assumed 'this must be what neutral sounds like,' when in fact the warmer sound before cap modification was covering my poor source output. After some tinkering, the 'harshness' has completely disappeared, and I'm now hearing the clearest, most transparent sound I've heard in my entire life. It's incredible...
> 
> ...


 

 Or replace the opamp power caps with Chemicon KZE for some slight warmth plus a bit more bass impact.  I suggest replacing the two red WIMAs in between them with ERO MKP 1837 caps.  The improvement is wonderful.


----------



## Monago

Quote: 





purrin said:


> If you have a DMM (if you don't, just pick up something cheap from a Home Depot), check DC voltage at headphone outputs. Just in case your source is putting out any DC. I don't want your headphones dying.
> 
> As far as cables, since you are now fully armed with a soldering iron, you can make your own $400 headphone cables. Watch the heat though when you solder wire on headphone drivers otherwise you will melt the voice coils. Get a cheap Weller soldering station where you can adjust temperature.
> 
> This is awesome. You are now one of the few people on the planet who has actually had first-hand experience and knowledge of what caps do to sound quality.


 
   
  I made a point of checking the potential for DC output on my source before performing the mod. I've more or less read this entire thread, and several times you've mentioned the dangers of removing input caps because of said DC output. My source came up with .5mV, which ends up being 5mV with 10 gain. I believe that's an acceptable amount.
   
  As for cables, I don't believe in them (changing the sound), so as long as I have cables thick enough to deliver appropriate current, I don't feel the need to change anything. Even for something that's just more rugged, the cable on my HD650's seem sufficient.
   
  And yes, I was honestly quite skeptical about the mod really changing as much as you claimed. Audiophile terminology seems to be thrown around like a cheap suit; the degree of noticeable change in a new component being highly subjective, the audible improvements almost always end up being exaggerated, so you end up with false expectations that generally go unfulfilled. This means disappointment/disillusionment with everything audiophile related - or so has been my experience, anyway. I'm extremely skeptical when it comes to audible change, and I legitimately heard a VERY big shift in sound from rather 'warm' to completely neutral. You could say that I'm now a 'believer' when it comes to capacitors. Quite an impressive change.
   
  Quote: 





mad max said:


> Or replace the opamp power caps with Chemicon KZE for some slight warmth plus a bit more bass impact.  I suggest replacing the two red WIMAs in between them with ERO MKP 1837 caps.  The improvement is wonderful.


 

 As for these caps, I have the Lovely Cube (this thread was bigger/more traffic. Thought I'd post here instead). Looking at the caps I pulled from the input, they seem to be the same as the opamp power caps. Both are rated at .022uF. The ones you linked me are .01uF. Would this be a problem?
   
  Edit: Oh, and would you mind linking me the Chemicon KZE caps you mentioned, as well? =)


----------



## Monago

Ok, so apparently I unknowingly had my EQ setting all out of wack. I completely forgot about them, but because of the sound before removing my input caps, I had the upper frequencies jacked up to +3.5db... uck. After pulling them down to +0.6db, I now have precisely the sound I was looking for. It's unbelievable! More transparency, air, detail, etc. It seems counterintuitive, but I'm hearing more micro-detail with less treble.
   
  Anyway, I think I'm finished with audiophile stuff for a very long time. The sound I'm hearing is quite close to what I would consider 'perfect'.
   
  Thanks to everyone in the forums for being so helpful! And especially thanks to purrin for contributing so much to this thread! I attribute much of what I'm hearing right now to his insights and ideas.


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





monago said:


> I made a point of checking the potential for DC output on my source before performing the mod. I've more or less read this entire thread, and several times you've mentioned the dangers of removing input caps because of said DC output. My source came up with .5mV, which ends up being 5mV with 10 gain. I believe that's an acceptable amount.
> 
> As for these caps, I have the Lovely Cube (this thread was bigger/more traffic. Thought I'd post here instead). Looking at the caps I pulled from the input, they seem to be the same as the opamp power caps. Both are rated at .022uF. The ones you linked me are .01uF. Would this be a problem?
> 
> Edit: Oh, and would you mind linking me the Chemicon KZE caps you mentioned, as well? =)


 

 10mv is not dangerous, but it will negate most of the improvement you should get from removing the DC blocking caps.
   
  Nah, the difference in value won't be an issue.  It's the "speed" cap.  You could connect two MKP caps at a time to make 0.2uF of capacitance and see how it affects the sound.  I haven't bothered trying out two caps at a time, but those Vishays are pretty bulky already.
   
  I buy circuit components from Digikey or Mouser, but since you're in Canada, you should probably google for a seller there; otherwise, Digikey and Mouser can ship internationally, but shipping won't be as cheap as it is for me here in the US.
   
  Edit:  How can I check to see if the electrolytic + bypass decoupling caps for the opamp connect to floating ground or signal ground?


----------



## Monago

Quote: 





mad max said:


> 10mv is not dangerous, but it will negate most of the improvement you should get from removing the DC blocking caps.
> 
> Nah, the difference in value won't be an issue.  It's the "speed" cap.  You could connect two MKP caps at a time to make 0.2uF of capacitance and see how it affects the sound.  I haven't bothered trying out two caps at a time, but those Vishays are pretty bulky already.
> 
> ...


 
   
  I just rechecked my outputs. Source DC Offset is 0mV, as is amplifier headphone out. These were triple checked, so I'm quite certain of this. I'm not sure how I got my last readings, but I was quite tired at the time which can mean I did any number of things wrong. I'll check again tomorrow to be sure these are accurate, but from what I can tell, DC Offset shouldn't be affecting anything.
   
  And cool, I'll probably pick up a few of those caps up sometime, then. Not sure when, though. I don't have any desire to mod my amp now. I've fixed my EQ settings, so everything sounds incredible; I can't imagine wanting a different sound... although I have a feeling that will change in several months =P.
   
  Anyway, thanks for the recommendations Mad Max. Great help!


----------



## Mad Max

Your DC reading can be different when you check the amp after barely turning it on versus checking the amp after it has had warm-up time.
   
  Vishay MKP 1837 are awesome and well worth it.  I will be avoiding WIMA's MKP for a long time for sure; too rounded, muddy, and artificial by comparison.


----------



## Satellite_6

". . . the incredibly fast, detailed and transparent M-stage"
   
  Anyone else think this is a bit off? 
   
  I would say meduim paced, detailed, and somewhat colored. 
   
  idk.


----------



## Monago

Quote: 





satellite_6 said:


> ". . . the incredibly fast, detailed and transparent M-stage"
> 
> Anyone else think this is a bit off?
> 
> ...


 

 With the input caps removed and using an opamp like the OPA2111AM, this amp becomes quite fast, detailed, transparent, etc; the biggest change being the removal of the input caps. It's an extremely dramatic shift in sound, as I mention above. But as an unmodified amplifier, yes, it's generally a bit slow and warm.


----------



## purrin

Quote: 





satellite_6 said:


> ". . . the incredibly fast, detailed and transparent M-stage"
> 
> Anyone else think this is a bit off?
> 
> ...


 

 It's all relative. Ripping out the caps results in significant gains in speed, transparency, and treble extension. Jump up to another league of amp, and it's a whole other story. But in terms of those three aspects (and bass control), I'd put the modified version (meaning op-amp swap and shunting input caps) of this amp against those costing up to $700.


----------



## Satellite_6

Hmmm, is removing the input caps easy to do? Where they at? (at the back I suppose)
   
  I am very skeptical about switching opamps as NwAvGuy explained that it may actually degrade the sound depending on the on the design of the amp, but I may try the above.


----------



## Mad Max

NwAvGuy?  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  Funny guy.


----------



## Satellite_6

Pfffft, engineers, what do they know.


----------



## purrin

Quote: 





satellite_6 said:


> Hmmm, is removing the input caps easy to do? Where they at? (at the back I suppose)


 
   
  Remove the big blue cap (C22, C23) and the little red? (C21, C24) caps. Replace with wire.
  

   
   Quote: 





satellite_6 said:


> I am very skeptical about switching opamps as NwAvGuy explained that it may actually degrade the sound depending on the on the design of the amp, but I may try the above.


 
   
  Yes, NwAvGuy is the supreme authority of head-amp design. After almost 2000 posts, many of which were related to op-amp rolling, we have finally realized that he was right; and that we should have never touched the stock op-amp in the first place. All bow to NwAvGuy's vast knowledge and greatness!


----------



## Satellite_6

Quote: 





purrin said:


> Yes, NwAvGuy is the supreme authority of head-amp design. After almost 2000 posts, many of which were related to op-amp rolling, we have finally realized that he was right; and that we should have never touched the stock op-amp in the first place. All bow to NwAvGuy's vast knowledge and greatness!


 
   
  How many of you are experts on amp design? Are you? I don't know much but the following have me worried: 
   
  "As for the M-Stage, I'm not familiar with the internals of that amp. But most op amps in normal plastic packages (DIP, SOIC, etc.) are already a bit thermally challenged to drive headphones directly. Forcing them into Class-A will make them run much hotter and that could create other problems and/or seriously shorten their life. If an overheated op fails, it very likely _will_ take the headphones with it as it will dump the full DC power supply voltage to the headphones."
   
  -NwAvGuy, no link
   
  "If you don’t put an input cap in your amp, you avoid these issues entirely. There’s no phase shift, no bass roll off, and no decrease in sonic clarity. Just realize that you risk damaging your headphones if you do this. A source that has a low DC offset today may develop a problem tomorrow."
   
  Warren Young, whoever that is - first google result "input caps"
http://tangentsoft.net/audio/input-cap.html
   
  Sorry but the more I read the more it seems like modding is a terrible idea - and now I seem like a troll - but I was genuinely interested.
  Is there a significant risk here?


----------



## purrin

Yes, there is risk to removing the cap. I have made that perfectly clear many times and asked people to check their DC offset. There are quite a few amps on the market that are also direct coupled and will pass on DC. Most if not all CMOYs are like this.
   
  The op-amp does not drive headphones directly in this amp. It drives a diamond buffer output stage. If you read some of the early posts regarding the class A mod, you would have realized there was quite a lot of discussion on thermal limits and how much current / what size resistor should be used for safe operation. If it's risky, why would the retailer coolfungadget, who would also be responsible for warranty service, incorporate this mod as an extra package for this amp.
   
  And why is NwAvGuy now the supreme authority on everything now? And why is he commenting on an amp which he knows nothing about the internals about? And why are you parroting this nonsense? Are you one of this evil minions or groupies?


----------



## Mad Max

Decoupling DC servos are the alternative to input caps.  The M-Stage lacks this, however.  Their side-effect is adding noise to the signal below 10Hz if done properly, so that's favorable over the issues correlated to input capacitors or having nothing at all to cut down on DC voltage.


----------



## Satellite_6

Quote: 





purrin said:


> And why is NwAvGuy now the supreme authority on everything now? And why is he commenting on an amp which he knows nothing about the internals about? And why are you parroting this nonsense? Are you one of this evil minions or groupies?


 
   
  I don't recall saying that NwAvGuy is the ultimate authority on anything, just that he's claims to be an electrical engineer. _That's all._ Enough of this - it's going nowhere. it was not my intention to argue about this and I do not see why you are so touchy and opposed to me quoting him. . . once. 
   
  Thanks for the info anyway - I'll look through the thread for more info.


----------



## estreeter

Guys, please - rehashing old ground and renewing old brawls isnt getting us anywhere.
   
  Satellite, I really think you waded in here when you didn't have to - mindlessly agreeing with nwavguy (or anyone else) is right up there with mindlessly agreeing with his opposition. Its so easy to rekindle animosity here, and you arent going to change minds that are already made up. Just buy the Objective2 and enjoy the thing - amp evangelism is sooooo 2008 ......


----------



## purrin

Quote: 





estreeter said:


> Guys, please - rehashing old ground and renewing old brawls isnt getting us anywhere.
> 
> Satellite, I really think you waded in here when you didn't have to - mindlessly agreeing with nwavguy (or anyone else) is right up there with mindlessly agreeing with his opposition. Its so easy to rekindle animosity here, and you arent going to change minds that are already made up. Just buy the Objective2 and enjoy the thing - amp evangelism is sooooo 2008 ......


 

 I apologize for my snarkyness.
   
  It's not necessarily a nwavguy thing - I responded in a similar way in another post where someone invoked Tyll. It's more the mindlessly wading in here without reading even _two _posts back (#1925) where one of these concerns (the DC offset danger) is discussed.


----------



## Mad Max

Satellite, it's called sarcasm.
   
   
  Quote: 





estreeter said:


> Guys, please - rehashing old ground and renewing old brawls isnt getting us anywhere.
> 
> Satellite, I really think you waded in here when you didn't have to - mindlessly agreeing with nwavguy (or anyone else) is right up there with mindlessly agreeing with his opposition. Its so easy to rekindle animosity here, and you arent going to change minds that are already made up. Just buy the Objective2 and enjoy the thing - amp evangelism is sooooo 2008 ......


 

 [Feeding the troll...]


----------



## nullpo

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *purrin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> I generally don't believe in magic caps, but you want to spend a bit more: http://gr-research.com/sonicaps.aspx


 

 I'm a big fan of Sonicaps, but they aren't particularly warm.  I had removed the input caps but decided to put something back for safety while I was modding my sources.  I had some 2uF Sonicaps laying around from another project so I threw them in.  Very balanced sound.  Obviously it can't be as transparent, but I didn't notice a whole lot of difference coming from the wire jumpers.  Increasing the capacitance is supposed to help the bass, but I don't really have any complaints there.  I think up to a 3.9uF Sonicap could fit with some determination.
   
  Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *Monago* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> As for these caps, I have the Lovely Cube (this thread was bigger/more traffic. Thought I'd post here instead). Looking at the caps I pulled from the input, they seem to be the same as the opamp power caps. Both are rated at .022uF. The ones you linked me are .01uF. Would this be a problem?


 
  Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *Mad Max* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Nah, the difference in value won't be an issue.  It's the "speed" cap.  You could connect two MKP caps at a time to make 0.2uF of capacitance and see how it affects the sound.  I haven't bothered trying out two caps at a time, but those Vishays are pretty bulky already.
> 
> I buy circuit components from Digikey or Mouser, but since you're in Canada, you should probably google for a seller there; otherwise, Digikey and Mouser can ship internationally, but shipping won't be as cheap as it is for me here in the US.


 

 Those caps were .15uF on mine, but they're 22nF in the Lovely Cube.  Parts Connexion had 22nF MKP1837 in stock so that's what I went with.  They fit perfectly and sound great.
   
  I also picked up some 100pF Amtrans AMCH to replace the input filter caps.  Polypropylene and copper foil with gold plated OFHC leads sounded impressive and they do seem a nice improvement over the Wimas.  For the electrolytics size is an issue.  12.5mm is the widest that will fit.  It seems that 470uF is already overkill for the opamp supply, so I didn't see any issues using 330uF 25V Nichicon KZ.  For the power rail I went with Elna Cerafine 470uF 25V.  I also grabbed some 4700uF 63V Mundorf MLPI that I have yet to install.  They're pretty tall, so I don't know if I'll be able to close the case once they're in.
   
  I'm still playing around with opamps, but I did solder a couple OPA1611 onto a dual Browndog adapter.  I'm really enjoying them so far (dat bass...) but once things are settled in I'll compare them more seriously with the class A OPA627 I got when I bought the amp.  I'll probably play around with bias on these too.
   
  My thanks to everyone in this and the Lovely Cube thread for the ideas.  This is a fantastic amp for the money.


----------



## purrin

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *nullpo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> I'm a big fan of Sonicaps, but they aren't particularly warm.


 

  Totally agree.
   
  Another thing to try is to just delete the smaller "speed" or bypass cap on the input, especially if you are already using some boutique caps.


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





nullpo said:


> I'm a big fan of Sonicaps, but they aren't particularly warm.  I had removed the input caps but decided to put something back for safety while I was modding my sources.  I had some 2uF Sonicaps laying around from another project so I threw them in.  Very balanced sound.  Obviously it can't be as transparent, but I didn't notice a whole lot of difference coming from the wire jumpers.  Increasing the capacitance is supposed to help the bass, but I don't really have any complaints there.  I think up to a 3.9uF Sonicap could fit with some determination.
> 
> 
> Those caps were .15uF on mine, but they're 22nF in the Lovely Cube.  Parts Connexion had 22nF MKP1837 in stock so that's what I went with.  They fit perfectly and sound great.
> ...


 

 Rather than bothering with input caps, I'm looking into copying the DC servo circuit in the Dynalo.  (the little diagram at the bottom left with OP27 - I'll probably go with TL072 just like the Gilmore Lite)
   
  I don't remember seeing Parts Connexion carrying MKP1837 caps.  Perhaps I missed them.  I tried Nich KZ 25V 100uF for the opamp, and I loved the treble and clean sound, but the midrange and bass lacked body and impact versus Chemicon KZE.  I may try it again later and roll bypasses to see if it improves.  I've got a pair of 330uF Silmics to try with the opamp, but keep forgetting to get around to it.
   
  OPA1611 is okay, I think.  I prefer 1602 and 209 over it, but 1602 needs very closely matched inputs or you get loads of DC.  I don't like OPA627, I don't think I ever will.  The one I bet will blow you away is OPA602BP - incredible little opamp I've been getting familiar with, not to mention the better B grade comes in dip form, so you can use it with a socketed adapter if you wish and not have to solder.  I think more people should try it, especially since it isn't like most of the better chips around that only come in soic form, requiring soldering to an adapter.  I'm currently using ADA4627-1B with 22pF ceramics on the feedback resistors.  Yet another awesome opamp that I started playing around with when it came out two years ago.  You should get with the times.  =p
  One more opamp worth trying in the M-Stage and Lovely Cube is OPA827.  Fantastic little chip.
  I prefer a more refined and transparent sound, so I gravitate towards analytical-to-death opamps like OPA602 and ADA4627, then OPA827 and OPA209 are more musical yet still maintaining a merciless degree of transparency (there's something special about OPA209 + Grados).  Best soundstaging is OPA602 and OPA827, hands down, followed closely by AD797, ADA4627, ISL55001 (you can only use this one at very low gain, though), and OPA1641.  1602 is very natural and organic sounding yet still very transparent (does an incredible job with harmonics, I mean, and is neutral as well).  I picked that one up not too long ago (BB just released it this year).  I'm going to try out OPA211 in a bit.  Seems 1611 is just a rebadged 211.


----------



## nullpo

Quote: 





purrin said:


> Another thing to try is to just delete the smaller "speed" or bypass cap on the input, especially if you are already using some boutique caps.


 

 Yeah, I left those out.
   
  Quote: 





mad max said:


> Rather than bothering with input caps, I'm looking into copying the DC servo circuit in the Dynalo.  (the little diagram at the bottom left with OP27 - I'll probably go with TL072 just like the Gilmore Lite)
> 
> I don't remember seeing Parts Connexion carrying MKP1837 caps.  Perhaps I missed them.  I tried Nich KZ 25V 100uF for the opamp, and I loved the treble and clean sound, but the midrange and bass lacked body and impact versus Chemicon KZE.  I may try it again later and roll bypasses to see if it improves.  I've got a pair of 330uF Silmics to try with the opamp, but keep forgetting to get around to it.
> 
> ...


 

 I'm not familiar with Chemicon KZE.  Looks like Digikey has them really cheap so I'll throw some in on my next order.  Same for the Silmics.
   
  Heh I'm new to opamp rolling.  I had put some class A biased (1K8) OPA627s in my Njoe Tjoeb years ago and with a few other mods much preferred it to their upsampler.  Going with the OPA627APs from CFG was an easy choice.  Being that rolling opamps is a lot cheaper than the 6922 family of tubes I plan to pick up a bunch to try.  I already have some AD797BRZ that I'm gonna try on the CDP first.  With all the hype for the ADA4627-1BRZ I'm gonna have to pony up and buy some.  I was gonna grab some OPA827 but Digikey is out of stock.  So many opamps, so little time...
   
  I did finally put in those 4700uF MLPIs tonight.  They just barely fit.  Maybe 1mm of extra space.  Let's just say the KGs with their steel snap-in leads and dubious provenance won't be going back.


----------



## Mad Max

I was just reading that the MLytics may be an upgrade for my DAC19 as well.


----------



## vabch22

I am looking for an amp for my HD595's and D2000's. I was looking at a LD i+ with Mullard M8083 tubes or the stock m-stage. Since they come out to be able the same price, which would be a better option for SQ and overall improvement? Thanks.


----------



## Jibbie

I would pair both of those with an SS amp, in this case, the M-Stage.  Especially the D2000


----------



## purrin

x2. Jibbie is right especially on the _especially the D2000_ part.


----------



## vabch22

Awesome, thanks gents. Just placed the order.


----------



## francisdemarte

Quote: 





satellite_6 said:


> I am very skeptical about switching opamps as NwAvGuy explained that it may actually degrade the sound depending on the on the design of the amp, but I may try the above.


 


  This can be true, but if you follow this thread you already have a lot of other people taking the risks for you and making recommendations. NwAvGuy's article also suggests that properly functioning opamps do not effect sound. I'm far from having a golden ear and I hear the differences in presentation with different opamps, they are slight but definately audible.  
   
  I love the ADA4627-1BRZ normally but they sound kinda thin without the input caps on the Lovely Cube. The Burr-Brown's like the OPA627 has a creamier thicker sound that works well for me. 
   
  I ordered his O2 amp too. Seems like cool project.


----------



## Chris J

satellite_6 said:


> Pfffft, engineers, what do they know.




We're just the idiots who design these things!


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





francisdemarte said:


> This can be true, but if you follow this thread you already have a lot of other people taking the risks for you and making recommendations. _Better, properly functioning opamps give you better sound_. I'm far from having a golden ear and I hear the differences in presentation with different opamps, they are slight but definately audible.
> ...


 

 fixed your typos  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
   

  Quote: 





francisdemarte said:


> ....  I love the ADA4627-1BRZ normally but they sound kinda thin without the input caps on the Lovely Cube...


 
   
  It needs PSU bypass and ceramics in the feedback loop, which people generally don't bother with.  Yes, it affects the opamp's sound a lot.  It may also benefit from having 100-ohm resistors added to the 50-ohm output resistors like AD797, but I forgot to order resistors that last time that I ordered caps.  Dangit.
   
  Edit: pic


----------



## chetlanin

Quote: 





alfbaxter said:


> For anyone still rolling opamps with the M-Stage, I can strongly recommend the LME49720HA. It's the metal can version of the LM4562NA, and for some reason it's much better. The bass is richer and deeper, and the highs are more refined, but the overall sound retains the punch and clarity of the 4562. Very impressive - and it doesn't need class-a biasing, because the main reason for going class-a with the 4562 was to warm the sound up a bit, which this chip doesn't need.
> 
> Far better IMHO than anything else I've tried, which includes OPA627, LM4562 and LME49860, all with various resistor values for class-a biasing. This guy is selling them on eBay, and offers excellent service: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110678957781


 

 Exactly my impression of the LME49720HA! A rather vast improvement to the original OPA2134 and some other I have tried. I have used it in both my M-Stage and the 'Lovely Cube' with the same result. Well,  I like the Opa627 also, but I am already using 2 of them in a preceding tone-control stage, so I thought the use of  3 in the signal path perhaps would give a tad too much sugar on the syrup. Olaf


----------



## Sganzerla

I'm using Earth HDAM with the capacitor mod from Zero DAC thread. Just bought this 8-pin LME49720HA to see how they compare.


----------



## chetlanin

Quote: 





sganzerla said:


> I'm using Earth HDAM with the capacitor mod from Zero DAC thread. Just bought this 8-pin LME49720HA to see how they compare.


 


  Great!  Let us know if the little rascal can come close to the monster!


----------



## dogwan

I just ordered the LME49720HA for my Matrix. Will post my thoughts vs. the Dual OPA627 in both Class-A and not.


----------



## Xymordos

I used dual opa627sm on +10db gain. Found the treble too forward and sharp for my liking. It also caused a bloated midbass section. However, the clarity and details and soundstage is unmatched


----------



## Mad Max

If 627 is impressing you, wait 'til you try OPA602BP.


----------



## aural bliss

just received the matrix m stage.  pairing with an audinst mx1.  so far so good on my shure 840s 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  for audinst owners, what volume level should i adjust to (on the mx1)? i want to optimize this son of a bitch


----------



## WestLander

Quote: 





aural bliss said:


> just received the matrix m stage.  pairing with an audinst mx1.  so far so good on my shure 840s
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Great to hear you're enjoying the synergy there. I have my MX1 turned all the way up (100%) and regulate the volume control through the M-Stage. That way there's only one knob to fiddle with and no potentially painful surprises when I switch 'phones.


----------



## Pratt

Quote: 





satellite_6 said:


> I am very skeptical about switching opamps as NwAvGuy explained that it may actually degrade the sound depending on the on the design of the amp, but I may try the above.


 


  I am NOT trying to stir anything up here, I barely even know who NwAvGuy is (I never even saw one of his posts on this forum, have only heard of his legend lol), but I'd just like to say that until I see some proper blind testing (and if you don't "believe in" blind testing--which you actually do as you utilize things almost daily that whose efficacy is based at least substantially off of such testing--then you have removed yourself from rational consideration on these issues) that proves that opamps make any difference in sound, then there is no rational reason to even consider them. Personal testimony (which is all we have here) is, of course, not a solid base for, well, predicating ones beliefs on anything, much less specific claims about empirical reality such as this which can and should be tested as such. That is a fallacy of the most fundamental and highest order. The mind is a very fallible apparatus which is very prone to placebo and expectation. We MUST make sure to completely remove these influences via rigorous testing in these areas to have any justified belief that the purported empirical phenomena that can be easily entirely attributed to such mental effects actually exists, in fact, in external reality, rather than only in just our inner minds. (Yes, I'm a philosophy grad lol with a very intense interest in how human belief(s) are formed, go wrong, and yet are still clung to with such intensity as they so often do and are. Cognitive psychology and neuroscience/philosophy in particular is of great help in this burgeoning field of the scientific study of human irrationality, although of course much work has been done on this topic for thousands of years via sheer logic alone). 
   
  This said, I have absolutely nothing against those who like to experiment with opamp rolling: in fact I think it's cool to mod things and wish them fun in the pursuit of this hobby! I'm just saying to the undecided reader that it is at the very least unproven that opamps make any difference in sound at all (even entirely different amps only slightly do when tested blind as I have done multiple times with groups using both cans and speakers and dozens of other tests have shown), so, well, don't worry about the matter if you're not a modder or are afraid to screw anything up as it is otherwise most likely an exercise of the utmost futility. Just enjoy the Matrix stock as I have (I have had the v1 for over a year iirc) and beware of opamp dogmatists (not saying anyone itt is) who tell you that you must mod as the stock sound leaves much to be desired and can be improved on. I'm not saying they are necessarily wrong, but usually claims which lack any solid evidence do so for very good reason and until proven right they are at the very least highly suspect and thus are not to be ever accepted, assumed, or trusted.
   
  I will say no more on this topic and furthermore wish everyone sonic enjoyment through whatever way (whether real or imagined) they wish to and can attain it.


----------



## chetlanin

Very good Pratt!.

 And personally I completely agree with you that modding is not needed at all. The stock amp sounds great.

 I always thought that we are exaggerating when we describe these opamp differences, and am fully aware that they might wholly or partly evaporate under strict testing. In other words, if my student neighbor (who also owns the M-Stage), one night stole my exquisite, superior-sounding  OPA**** and replaced it with his cheap “dull sounding” OPA**** I am  quite sure that I wouldn’t notice anything the next day, nor the next week, perhaps never.. My hearing is varying all the time: From morning to evening, with the mood, with the intake of cigar smoke and cognac, with the amount of ear wax in the inner ear, with blood pressure, with atmospheric conditions, sun spot activity, you name it. The difference in sound between recordings are enormous, not to forget. (as a result my satisfaction with the equipment is extremely dependent on my trust in it). OTOH, maybe in the long run I would be slightly less satisfied with the amp, who knows.

 Little we know for sure. The imagination is strong. People are giving colorful descriptions of the sound of different cables, even if nothing is known to happen with the signal in such a passive component. But here we comes to an important point: The opamp is not a passive component.

 You say “until I see some proper blind testing …..that proves that opamps make any difference in sound, then there is no rational reason to even consider them”.

 I hope I have not misunderstood the last meaning, but there may indeed be some ‘rational reason’, in my opinion. The opamp is –in a way- a complete little amplifier, and the schematics varies considerably from one type to another. It consists mainly of non-linear semiconductors, and the different parts of the layout are best described as ‘a of a bag of tricks’  to counter those semiconductor non-linearities.
 Since you admit that ”real” amplifiers can sound different from each other (even if only to a small degree), there is no reason why you should not find the same to be the case with  different opamp types, to some degree.  Cheers, Olaf


----------



## Sganzerla

Got my LME49720HA right now...
   
   Well, *first impression* is that it stock right at Matrix is nowhere near as good as my Earth OPA with PIO cap.
   Earth have way more decay, soundstage, extension on both extremes and a sense of coerence/musicality.
   
   I know Earth OPA needs a lot of burn before sounding very good, I experienced it with my late Compass, and now with my amp. Don't really know what to expect with LME49720HA regarding this, I'm inclined to believe its sound will not change, unfortunately. Can someone confirm that there is no problem trying LME49720HA with the class A biasing mod?


----------



## purrin

Quote: 





pratt said:


> I am NOT trying to stir anything up here, I barely even know who NwAvGuy is (I never even saw one of his posts on this forum, have only heard of his legend lol), but I'd just like to say that until I see some proper blind testing (and if you don't "believe in" blind testing--which you actually do as you utilize things almost daily that whose efficacy is based at least substantially off of such testing--then you have removed yourself from rational consideration on these issues) that proves that opamps make any difference in sound, then there is no rational reason to even consider them. Personal testimony (which is all we have here) is, of course, not a solid base for, well, predicating ones beliefs on anything, much less specific claims about empirical reality such as this which can and should be tested as such. That is a fallacy of the most fundamental and highest order. The mind is a very fallible apparatus which is very prone to placebo and expectation. We MUST make sure to completely remove these influences via rigorous testing in these areas to have any justified belief that the purported empirical phenomena that can be easily entirely attributed to such mental effects actually exists, in fact, in external reality, rather than only in just our inner minds. (Yes, I'm a philosophy grad lol with a very intense interest in how human belief(s) are formed, go wrong, and yet are still clung to with such intensity as they so often do and are. Cognitive psychology and neuroscience/philosophy in particular is of great help in this burgeoning field of the scientific study of human irrationality, although of course much work has been done on this topic for thousands of years via sheer logic alone).
> 
> This said, I have absolutely nothing against those who like to experiment with opamp rolling: in fact I think it's cool to mod things and wish them fun in the pursuit of this hobby! I'm just saying to the undecided reader that it is at the very least unproven that opamps make any difference in sound at all (even entirely different amps only slightly do when tested blind as I have done multiple times with groups using both cans and speakers and dozens of other tests have shown), so, well, don't worry about the matter if you're not a modder or are afraid to screw anything up as it is otherwise most likely an exercise of the utmost futility. Just enjoy the Matrix stock as I have (I have had the v1 for over a year iirc) and beware of opamp dogmatists (not saying anyone itt is) who tell you that you must mod as the stock sound leaves much to be desired and can be improved on. I'm not saying they are necessarily wrong, but usually claims which lack any solid evidence do so for very good reason and until proven right they are at the very least highly suspect and thus are not to be ever accepted, assumed, or trusted.
> 
> I will say no more on this topic and furthermore wish everyone sonic enjoyment through whatever way (whether real or imagined) they wish to and can attain it.


 
   
  The Nwavguy quote in terms of "degrading the sound" was in relation to the op-amp running of out headroom because it was being driven into Class A. Nwavguy was clear in his statement that he did not know the exact design of the M-Stage. (In the M-Stage, the input drives a very high impedance output stage - not the headphones directly - so the degradation is not an issue.) It was implied to the poster that he should at least read the thread, understand its history, or ask questions before quoting Nwavguy. The quote had nothing to do with being able to hear differences among different op-amps.
   
  You don't need to do blind-testing to see if there are differences with op-amps. They are measurably different in output and distortion characteristics. What you did think Nwavguy (the objectivist) did to select his op-amps of choice for the O2? I'm actually not surprised the op-amps that measured well happened to be some of the op-amps that I chose in various DIY projects because I subjectively liked their sound.
   
  Op-amps sound different because they measure differently: 
http://www.sg-acoustics.ch/analogue_audio/ic_opamps/pdf/opamp_distortion.pdf
   
  BTW. You are kind of are stirring up crap because: 1) You don't know what you are talking about; and 2) You come in here and basically say: op-amp rollers are imaging things, it's all the mind, but that's cool with me, I'm done - you are still imaging things - not going to say anything more.
   
_Your rhetorical techniques aside, t__his is nothing more than a subtle form of trolling considering that most of this thread after project86's review has dealt with mods or troubleshooting._
   
  Quote: 





chetlanin said:


> I always thought that we are exaggerating when we describe these opamp differences, and am fully aware that they might wholly or partly evaporate under strict testing. In other words, if my student neighbor (who also owns the M-Stage), one night stole my exquisite, superior-sounding  OPA**** and replaced it with his cheap “dull sounding” OPA**** I am  quite sure that I wouldn’t notice anything the next day, nor the next week, perhaps never.


 

  The differences are indeed subtle. But they are important to those who like to tinker and know _exactly _how they like their sound. I posted a set of modifications (cap shunting, cap replacement, cap bypassing, op-amp replacement, class A mod) where the sum of them combined were less subtle.


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





sganzerla said:


> Got my LME49720HA right now...
> 
> Well, *first impression* is that it stock right at Matrix is nowhere near as good as my Earth OPA with PIO cap.
> Earth have way more decay, soundstage, extension on both extremes and a sense of coerence/musicality.
> ...


 

 I've hardly seen anyone bias 49720 into class A.  It may or may not make a difference.  To get some more serious improvement, add a ceramic and a 0.1 MKP1837 cap across pins 4 and 8.  The resistors at R36 and R33 are used in every gain setting, so add a 58pF ceramic cap on each one.  Then you should start to get a taste for what that opamp can really do.  =]


----------



## Satellite_6

I think the idea/argument is that even the lowly stock opamp 2134 should be transparent. . .


----------



## Mad Max

Key word being "should", and well, it somewhat is...  It's a friendly and very polite opamp.  There are better circuits out there just like there are better amplifiers.


----------



## Sganzerla

Quote: 





mad max said:


> I've hardly seen anyone bias 49720 into class A.  It may or may not make a difference.  To get some more serious improvement, add a ceramic and a 0.1 MKP1837 cap across pins 4 and 8.  The resistors at R36 and R33 are used in every gain setting, so add a 58pF ceramic cap on each one.  Then you should start to get a taste for what that opamp can really do.  =]


 


  After posting my last comment, I biased this opamp to class A. I think it improved, something with the somewhat 'hard' highs.
   
   Well, I listened to it all day, and a little before going to bed, I replaced it with my OPA Earth + PIO cap mod and the difference was so absurd, I can't really describe in words. It is like for every instrument you hear playing, there is another one on the background complementing it. And all the microcontrast is there again - if anyone has experience with photography, it is like going from a zoom lens to a Zeiss prime. The soundstage difference was big too, like everything is much bigger in size, if it makes sense, bass was a lot stronger and extended, smoother relaxed sound, natural, etc... This impression striked me because when I tried LME49720 first, my gear was not even 'warmed up', and I heard very obvious differences but not as pronounced as what I later found.
   
   Thanks for your tip, Mad Max, but living in a foreigner country, and knowing little about electronics, I think trying to mod it would make me spent much time on something that might not be of any benefit, as I'm really happy with the perfomance of my system. Better concentrate in other things like earning money to replace this amp with La Figaro 339, or a new DAC...


----------



## BmWr75

Is there a picture and description of the "OPA Earth + PIO cap mod" posted somewhere?


----------



## Mad Max

The main reason you hear so much difference at the moment is because you haven't tweaked 49720.  You've done a pinch for Earth but not as much for the other opamp, so duh, you are going to hear plenty of difference.


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





bmwr75 said:


> Is there a picture and description of the "OPA Earth + PIO cap mod" posted somewhere?


 

 I think it was in one of the Zero DAC threads.  You add the capacitor across pins 4 and 8 (power supplies - they're even labeled on the underside of the HDAM).  You also remove the little grey box-shaped capacitors on the sides of the opamp.  They are decoupling caps, and not all that great.


----------



## Sganzerla

As I said before, I don't have too much knowledge about electronics, but if you say I can do the exactly same mod to this opamp, I mean, using the same PIO cap (1uF 160v), then it may be a matter of minutes, as I have a spare one here waiting for some use. I didn't add any ceramic caps on my Earth, by the way.
   
  BmWr75, take a look here:
   
ZERO DAC MOD
   
   I removed these gray/white caps too.


----------



## henree

Quote: 





sganzerla said:


> As I said before, I don't have too much knowledge about electronics, but if you say I can do the exactly same mod to this opamp, I mean, using the same PIO cap (1uF 160v), then it may be a matter of minutes, as I have a spare one here waiting for some use. I didn't add any ceramic caps on my Earth, by the way.
> 
> BmWr75, take a look here:
> 
> ...


 

 Sganzerla, Is the 49720 an upgrade over the stock opamp 2134?


----------



## Sganzerla

I don't know the answer, because I haven't compared them, but I can say for sure that to me the class A biasing improved all the opamps I tried.
   Before Earth, If I remember well, the LM4562 would be my choice.


----------



## aural bliss

is the rectangle section (back of the matrix) where you input the ac power supposed to be loose?  mine is a bit loose; i can wiggle it a bit.  the sound is not affected at all just wondering


----------



## Mad Max

You can secure it from the inside with epoxy if you want.  As long as the electrical connections are fine, there shouldn't be any issues.


----------



## gustav29

Hi, can anyone recommend gain settings for the Sennheiser HD 580s with the M-Stage?  I'm currently using AKG K702s, but am thinking of pulling my HD 580s back out of their box and start listening again plugged in to the M-Stage.  (Also if you have a recommendation for the old Beyer DT-831s that would be great as well, but they are old cans!)
  Thanks


----------



## Jibbie

I always use the lowest gain possible while maintaining adequate volume.  For the HD580 I'd probably use 10db


----------



## gustav29

jibbie said:


> I always use the lowest gain possible while maintaining adequate volume.  For the HD580 I'd probably use 10db




Thanks. I will go with that tonight. That is what I have it set now for the AKG cans.
Sent from my HTC Sensation Z710e using Tapatalk


----------



## Satellite_6

I'm using a slightly "hot" source but I don't even have to flip the gain switches fro the HD 580's.


----------



## EraserXIV

Been looking into the M-Stage and was wondering if anyone could compare it with the AMB M3, particularly with an HD650. Did a couple searches and couldn't find much.


----------



## Mad Max

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if the M^3 with sigma11 beats it, although probably not by too much.  Just a guess going by how UncleErik deemed it a match for the Sheer Audio HA-006+, which is based on the dynalo circuit.  I've tried the Gilmore Lite (also a dynalo), and just with its crummy wallwart, it was on par with my modded M-Stage, and even beat it in a few ways.  I can imagine the Sheer Audio HA006 (which has a better psu than the Gilmore Lite I tried) and AMB M^3 w/ sigma11 being upgrades over the M-Stage.


----------



## Tribbs

Quote:


			
				Mad Max said:
			
		

> *Mad Max*


 

 Having just finished reading this entire thread [1 week, 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 So hey, I'm slow.]
  I wanted to say *Thanks for all your contributions*.
  It is greatly appreciated.
  ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________
   
  Now, to my first query for this distinguished quorum.
   
  I am on the fence between the Matrix M-Stage and the Lovely Cube.
  I would like to ask, besides the obvious physical layout, what electronic/sonic superiority, if any, does one have over the other?
   
  I noticed that the Matrix uses an encapsulated PCB mounted torroidal tranformer while the Lovely has an easily replaceable torroid. Would a chunkier torroid (50VA or greater) offer any improvement over the stock 30VA torroid?


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





tribbs said:


> Quote:
> 
> Having just finished reading this entire thread [1 week,
> 
> ...


 


  I can't see why a larger toroid would improve the sound.
  30 VA is immense when you consider that headphones only draw a few milliWatts (or a few milliVA).


----------



## Tribbs

Quote:


chris j said:


> I can't see why a larger toroid would improve the sound.
> 30 VA is immense when you consider that headphones only draw a few milliWatts (or a few milliVA).


 
   
  I would tend to agree with you.  But it is this post by Flukell which makes me wonder.  His profile suggests a level of authenticity.  He even has a photo of what seems to be a genuine unpopulated PCB of a Lehmann Black Cube Linear*.*


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





tribbs said:


> Quote:
> 
> I would tend to agree with you.  But it is this post by Flukell which makes me wonder.  His profile suggests a level of authenticity.  He even has a photo of what seems to be a genuine unpopulated PCB of a Lehmann Black Cube Linear*.*


 
   
  Wow!
  Just my opinion, but I would think upgraded caps anywhere in the circuit or an upgraded Op Amp would make a bigger difference than a bigger toroid.
   
  Edit:  A bigger toroid may need a bigger box for the LC.


----------



## ETAHL

Get the Matrix M-Stage if you want a proven finished product and simple opamp modding. It uses above average parts, nothing exotic. There isn't really any big improvement can be had by upgrading the passive components. Plug-n-play.
   
  Get the Lovely Cube as a kit if you are a modder, where you can easily change transistors, capacitor, etc with exotic components. The price can get out of hand with exotic parts and performance improvement may not be that significant.
   
  If you are die-hard modder, another option to to get one of those very inexpensive "Lehmann inspired kits" on eBay and mod till your hearts content.


----------



## Tribbs

I don't intend to go beyond OpAmp swaps, class A biasing and perhaps remove the input capacitors (DC offset aware).
   
  I was wondering, if the Matrix (Ver.2) with the torroid integrated onto the single PCB and with the RCA input jacks PCB mounted, etc., does the consolidated PCB offer any sonic improvements?  Less noise perhaps? Other than easier (cheaper) assembly I can't think of anything.
   
  The Lovely Cube Premium uses Neutrik gold plated headphone jacks and gold-plated RCA input jacks.  The Lovelys also seem to have a better(?), smoother(?) ALPS-27 volume pot.  Does the Matrix use the same Alps volume pot?  Why are there complaints about the Matrix pot being stiff, hard to turn?  Is it simply because the Matrix knob is smaller in diameter than the Lovely?
   
  Thanks for your input.
   
  I already have a few OpAmp samples and their associated paraphernalia on their way 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Woo Hoo!
   
  LME49720HA-ND (same as LM4562HA-ND)
  ADA4627-1
  OPA209AID
  OPA602BP


----------



## Tribbs

One more question which I am too embarrassed to ask elsewhere.  Please bear with me.
   
  I noticed there is a new "balanced" Matrix Quattro amp.  It seems to be designed around a pair of Matrix M-Stages.
  
  What are the merits of "balanced" amps?  Should I want one for a Grado 325i hp?


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





tribbs said:


> One more question which I am too embarrassed to ask eleswhere.  Please bear with me.
> 
> I noticed there is a new "balanced" Matrix Quattro amp.  It seems to be designed around a pair of Matrix M-Stages.
> 
> What are the merits of "balanced" amps?  Should I want one for a Grado 325i hp?


 

 Balanced amps will output twice as much voltage as a non balanced version.
  Grados don't need a lot of voltage as they are low impedance cans.
   
  If balanced amp are not truly balanced then you can get more distortion than you would from a non balanced version.
  I really doubt that Matrix has trimmed out the two amps they are using to create one symmetrical balanced amp but you never know.........I haven't seen any schematics for the balanced version on the web.
  So if they didn't do their homework you could be paying extra money for nothing.


----------



## Tribbs

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Balanced amps will output twice as much voltage as a non balanced version.
> Grados don't need a lot of voltage as they are low impedance cans.


 
   
  You may have saved me a couple C-notes.
  Thanks!


----------



## ETAHL

Quote: 





tribbs said:


> I don't intend to go beyond OpAmp swaps, class A biasing and perhaps remove the input capacitors (DC offset aware).
> 
> I was wondering, if the Matrix (Ver.2) with the torroid integrated onto the single PCB and with the RCA input jacks PCB mounted, etc., does the consolidated PCB offer any sonic improvements?  Less noise perhaps? Other than easier (cheaper) assembly I can't think of anything.
> 
> ...


 
   
  The nice thing about integrated PCB is that there are no chance of miss wire, it has happen to older hand wired M-Stages, and less variation from unit to unit. Hand routing, quality of the wire shielding, and solder joint quality can cause variation in noise level, maybe for the better or for the worst.

 The Matrix does have the same Alps pot. As you have mentioned, the knob has a smooth, small diameter center spindle that makes it hard to grip and turn.
  The RCA jack of the Matrix is also gold plated, but not as nice as the one on the premium Lovely Cubes.
   
  You should also consider some sight differences in functionality, the Matrix has dual input RCA with selector switch at the front; where as the Lovely Cube has an extra headphone jack. Take your pick on which features you value most. I doubt there is significant differences in sound quality between the two. Even if there is, it is really a personal taste as to which is to your liking. Just pick one for the features and get a bunch of opamps and start rolling and enjoying.


----------



## d3xtro

Hey guys, just received my matrix m-stage amp . trying to connect it to my Asus Xonar Essence STX card. pretty new to amps in general as well. I connected a 2rca cable to the amp, and then to soundcard. what should the settings be in control panel? set analog out to 2 speakers, but only get sound out of left channel, not right, and very quiet at that. so im doing something wrong?


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





d3xtro said:


> Hey guys, just received my matrix m-stage amp . trying to connect it to my Asus Xonar Essence STX card. pretty new to amps in general as well. I connected a 2rca cable to the amp, and then to soundcard. what should the settings be in control panel? set analog out to 2 speakers, but only get sound out of left channel, not right, and very quiet at that. so im doing something wrong?


 

 I am too lazy too look up your soundcard so here goes...........LOL.
  Obviously something is way out of whack.
  Does sound card have a dedicated Line Out jack? Sounds like that is what you are using?
  Can you set line out to 2.0 Volts nominal?
  Try swapping left RCA with right RCA on the soundcard to see if problem is in the RCA cable. I doubt it, but it should be ruled out.
  Can you turn volume up on sound card?
  Is mute on?
   
  My experience is: when I use the Matrix with a Digital to Analog converter, I set the gain to 10 dBs
  When I use my AKG Q701, the Matrix volume control is approx. 11 to 12 o'clock, 1 o'clock starts to get really loud.


----------



## d3xtro

im doing something wrong, not sure what, as there is no sound in line-out at all. but I get faint sound when its plugged directly into the amp.. :S. so the 2rca is plugged into the output on the amp, then both in rca input on soundcard, thats it yeah? my cable is this btw http://www.selbyacoustics.com.au/storefrontprofiles/DeluxeSFItemDetail.aspx?sid=1&sfid=74520&c=153255&i=232584279. dodgy cable, or its fine?


----------



## dogwan

The output should be plugged into one of the inputs on the Matrix. The outputs on the Matrix are for using as a preamp and put the signal out to other gear. On the soundcard you should be using the ouputs.
   
  If that's obvious I'm sorry, but based on your wording it sounds like you have the hookups wrong (backwards?)
   
  Soundcard output------> Matrix input (1 or 2)------> Headphones


----------



## d3xtro

Ok now I hear it ok, but now left phone is a lot quieter than right? hearing a kind of crackling sound always as well. strange.


----------



## francisdemarte

Check your gain switches and make sure they are both set the same also make sure your jack are plugged in all the way. Crackling maybe a bad cable or they picking up interference.


----------



## d3xtro

Quote: 





francisdemarte said:


> Check your gain switches and make sure they are both set the same also make sure your jack are plugged in all the way. Crackling maybe a bad cable or they picking up interference.


 


  Actually there is no sound out of the left. both plugged in firmly as well. I did hear a faint tone from the left before when testing the channels in my sound cards control panel, but not now. hmm whats up?


----------



## d3xtro

I now get sound out of both fine though when I plug it only half way into the amps jack not fully in. what the?


----------



## Hughkk

where do u buy it for 250?
   
  the only place i can find which sell it is ebay at around 280


----------



## dogwan

Quote: 





d3xtro said:


> I now get sound out of both fine though when I plug it only half way into the amps jack not fully in. what the?


 

 Sometimes when you pull the headphone plug out 1/2 way it bridges into mono. It's possible that is what you are experiencing. I believe that tells you that both drivers and the cable are working.
   
  Now, what's causing the crackling? Have you tried plugging another device like an Ipod into the amp? Tried using a different set of RCA connectors? This will help eliminate those as the culprit.


----------



## Hughkk

how does this sound with hd650?


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





d3xtro said:


> Actually there is no sound out of the left. both plugged in firmly as well. I did hear a faint tone from the left before when testing the channels in my sound cards control panel, but not now. hmm whats up?


 


  Hey,
  Check to ensure BOTH sets of gain switches on the Matrix are set exactly the same, there is a set of two on the left and a set of two on the right on the bottom, try different gain settings, the switches might be dirty.  Try different inputs on the Matrix. You may have a bad connection on one set of inputs or input switch may be dirty, try toggling it a few times.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





hughkk said:


> where do u buy it for 250?
> 
> the only place i can find which sell it is ebay at around 280


 

 I bought my Matrix for 250 USD plus shipping from coolfungadget.
  Try googling "coolfungadget".  Should direct you to a site called "TamAudio "
  His shipping is very fast too. 
  You can also buy Op Amp upgrades from them for the Matrix M Stage.


----------



## Hughkk

why u can choose between 2 voltage, what diference are there?
   
  and is this http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Matrix-m-stage-Headphone-Amp-/350332764004 the same thing?


----------



## francisdemarte

Different countries use different power cords and have different voltages coming from the wall socket.


----------



## Hughkk

so if i travel through different countries, i cannot use the same amp?


----------



## francisdemarte

Depends on the country, you can if they have the same voltage as your home country. You many need a plug adapter, otherwise you will need a voltage adapter also. 
   
  See this: http://www.kropla.com/electric2.htm


----------



## EraserXIV

has anyone tried replacing the volume knob on the m-stage? it seems like it'd be a pretty easy swap out and would be a great upgrade on the stock one.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





eraserxiv said:


> has anyone tried replacing the volume knob on the m-stage? it seems like it'd be a pretty easy swap out and would be a great upgrade on the stock one.


 


 Why don't you like the Volume knob?


----------



## EraserXIV

It's not bad by any means, it just could be better 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  It's a bit small in diameter and I feel you could be more precise with a larger knob. I also think it could be nicer looking with a larger and silver colored knob.


----------



## kongmw

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Why don't you like the Volume knob?


 


  personally i'm not a big fan of the stock volume knob either. the diameter is a bit on the smaller side, and what bothers me most is that the mark on the knob is also black so its next to impossible to tell where it is in a dark room (ie the cave where i listen to my music 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)


----------



## ETAHL

The slim profile of the M-Stage is the reason for using a small diameter knob. Otherwise, when turning the knob, your finger will be bumping and rubbing on the table.
  All it needs is some texture on the knob, sand, bead blasted or knurled, for better grip.


----------



## EraserXIV

Quote: 





etahl said:


> Otherwise, when turning the knob, your finger will be bumping and rubbing on the table.


 


  I don't know if that would really be that big of an issue. I think there's a good amount of room to reasonably turn the knob a decent amount even if it were bigger.


----------



## BmWr75

I think these will work.
   
http://www.ebay.com/itm/190497034609?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649


----------



## dogwan

I put a new knob on mine and liked it. Feels a lot better and I can reach over while in bed and adjust without having to look.


----------



## EraserXIV

Quote: 





dogwan said:


> I put a new knob on mine and liked it. Feels a lot better and I can reach over while in bed and adjust without having to look.


 


  oh nice, which knob? pictures?
   
   
  I think either of these would look pretty nice: 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/PKG1-30x22-Aluminum-STEREO-Hi-Fi-VOLUME-CONTROL-KNOB-w-/390317545470?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5ae0bd17fe#ht_2869wt_1108
   
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-30x22-Aluminum-Hi-Fi-CD-VOLUME-TONE-CONTROL-KNOB-Bs-/180672233284?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a10e77f44#ht_2749wt_1108


----------



## Chris J

This proves we are all CRAZY!
  We are talking about the size of our knobs, expressing dissatisfaction with the size of our knobs and now want to post pictures of our knobs!
  You know someone had to say it!  
   
  LOL!


----------



## mrksgrn

Can anyone comment on the LCD2 + M-stage Matrix experience?


----------



## Balmoral

Quote: 





mrksgrn said:


> Can anyone comment on the LCD2 + M-stage Matrix experience?


 


  While I only have the Anedio D1 HP output and the Matrix to compare, I will say that the M-Stage is a decent all around sound.  The bass is pretty tight, midrange is strong and clear and the highs are well defined and clean. Soundstage could be a bit better, but I guess that has alot to do with the HPs themselves.  I do however think that an amp with more power would probably make for a better experience..Just MHO of course.
   
  BTW, not sure if it matters to you or not but I'm using the 627opamp.


----------



## ETAHL

Quote: 





mrksgrn said:


> Can anyone comment on the LCD2 + M-stage Matrix experience?


 

  
  From my experience the M-Stage, does a good job of driving the LCD-2. It is fairly neutral and detail enough to distinguish the differences between various DACs.I don't find it lacking in power with the LCD-2. The LCD-2 is already a bass heavy headphone. Its sound signature can be adjusted slightly with a change in op amp. I am presently using the metal can LME49720HA.
  You can get better sound stage from the LCD-2 with tube or tube hybrid amps, but that maybe artificially induced. I do like tube hybrid amps with the LCD-2.
  The M-Stage is a great value, and a good reference amp to compare other amps with to determine your sound preferences. Its sound quality level is high enough that improvement in sound quality from better amps will be subtle.


----------



## EraserXIV

Quote: 





etahl said:


> I am presently using the metal can LME49720HA.


 


  How do you find the signature of the LME49720HA? I have one on the way and I'm contemplating whether or not to get the OPA627 as well to mix it up.
   
  Also, have you tried biasing the LME49720HA into class-A, and if so how does it change?


----------



## mrksgrn

-


----------



## mrksgrn

Do you think soundstage improvement could be dramatically enhanced by a Lyr?
  Quote: 





etahl said:


> From my experience the M-Stage, does a good job of driving the LCD-2. It is fairly neutral and detail enough to distinguish the differences between various DACs.I don't find it lacking in power with the LCD-2. The LCD-2 is already a bass heavy headphone. Its sound signature can be adjusted slightly with a change in op amp. I am presently using the metal can LME49720HA.
> You can get better sound stage from the LCD-2 with tube or tube hybrid amps, but that maybe artificially induced. I do like tube hybrid amps with the LCD-2.
> The M-Stage is a great value, and a good reference amp to compare other amps with to determine your sound preferences. Its sound quality level is high enough that improvement in sound quality from better amps will be subtle.


----------



## ETAHL

Quote: 





eraserxiv said:


> How do you find the signature of the LME49720HA? I have one on the way and I'm contemplating whether or not to get the OPA627 as well to mix it up.
> 
> Also, have you tried biasing the LME49720HA into class-A, and if so how does it change?


 


  The LME49720HA is a bit smoother than the LME49720NA. It is some where between a LME4920NA by itself and it class-A biased.
  I tried class-A biasing the LME49720HA. It is too warm for my taste with the LCD-2.
  The OPA627 sounds great also. Very dynamic, good bass, a bit tube-like. Works well with brighter headphones. A tad too warm for my taste with the LCD-2.


----------



## ETAHL

Quote: 





mrksgrn said:


> Do you think soundstage improvement could be dramatically enhanced by a Lyr?


 

 I don't own the Lyr, but only heard it briefly. The sound stage is going to be determine by the headphone. Any improvements from the amp is subtle.
  If you are looking for sound stage, speakers are where they are at. If you like the LCD-2 sound, the Magnepans are the ticket, big sound stage.


----------



## dogwan

Quote: 





eraserxiv said:


> oh nice, which knob? pictures?


 


  Here ya' go....found the knob at a local electronics surplus shop for .50¢
   
  As far as the other poster's comment about fingers hitting the table, I don't find it to be a problem. In fact the larger diameter makes it so that you don't actually have to "wrap" your fingers around it to turn. More leverage makes the volume pot feel smoother.


----------



## Choobaka

Would anyone know how the m-stage compares to the amp section of the Nuforce Icon HDP? My current set-up is a Macbook Pro (via USB) -> HRT MSII -> Matrix M-stage -> HD598. But I want an optical input on my DAC so I can hook it up to my xbox 360 as well. So would I be missing anything from the m-stage if I switched my set-up to Macbook Pro -> Icon HDP -> HD598?
   
  I guess another way to ask this would be asking whether you view going from the MSII+M-stage to an Icon HDP as a downgrade/upgrade/not a really noticeable difference. If it's either of the last two, I'll probably get the HDP. If it's a downgrade I'll just upgrade my DAC to one with USB and optical inputs.
   
  Thanks in advance


----------



## putente

In my opinion, and if you have one of the M-Stage inputs available, I'd just use a FiiO D3 (it costs around $30), which can convert the optical signal from the Xbox360 to RCA, and just plug it to one of the the M-Stage inputs with a RCA cable. Cheap and simple... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  Quote: 





choobaka said:


> Would anyone know how the m-stage compares to the amp section of the Nuforce Icon HDP? My current set-up is a Macbook Pro (via USB) -> HRT MSII -> Matrix M-stage -> HD598. But I want an optical input on my DAC so I can hook it up to my xbox 360 as well. So would I be missing anything from the m-stage if I switched my set-up to Macbook Pro -> Icon HDP -> HD598?
> 
> I guess another way to ask this would be asking whether you view going from the MSII+M-stage to an Icon HDP as a downgrade/upgrade/not a really noticeable difference. If it's either of the last two, I'll probably get the HDP. If it's a downgrade I'll just upgrade my DAC to one with USB and optical inputs.
> 
> Thanks in advance


----------



## EraserXIV

Quote: 





dogwan said:


> Here ya' go....found the knob at a local electronics surplus shop for .50¢
> 
> As far as the other poster's comment about fingers hitting the table, I don't find it to be a problem. In fact the larger diameter makes it so that you don't actually have to "wrap" your fingers around it to turn. More leverage makes the volume pot feel smoother.


 


  Looking good! I think it looks much better and the knob seems more functional to boot, I ordered a knob of ebay and I'll post some pics once it arrives.


----------



## putente

Yep, it looks very nice indeed, and a lot nicer than the stock knob. I'm about to buy one of these amps, and the only thing I really don't like about it is that "smallish" stock knob. If I end up buy it, that's going to be one of my first mods, for shure... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   


  Quote: 





dogwan said:


> Here ya' go....found the knob at a local electronics surplus shop for .50¢
> 
> As far as the other poster's comment about fingers hitting the table, I don't find it to be a problem. In fact the larger diameter makes it so that you don't actually have to "wrap" your fingers around it to turn. More leverage makes the volume pot feel smoother.


----------



## Choobaka

That actually sounds like a brilliantly simple solution. I forgot that the M-Stage had another RCA input. Much appreciated! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  Quote: 





putente said:


> In my opinion, and if you have one of the M-Stage inputs available, I'd just use a FiiO D3 (it costs around $30), which can convert the optical signal from the Xbox360 to RCA, and just plug it to one of the the M-Stage inputs with a RCA cable. Cheap and simple...


----------



## kongmw

niiiiiiice... seems like your new knob fits quite well into the faceplate. i'm kinda OCD when it comes to this so I'd also have to look for one that doesn't leave a ring of gap in between
  
  Quote: 





dogwan said:


> Here ya' go....found the knob at a local electronics surplus shop for .50¢
> 
> As far as the other poster's comment about fingers hitting the table, I don't find it to be a problem. In fact the larger diameter makes it so that you don't actually have to "wrap" your fingers around it to turn. More leverage makes the volume pot feel smoother.


----------



## putente

And I'm happy that my advice was helpfull... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  Quote: 





choobaka said:


> That actually sounds like a brilliantly simple solution. I forgot that the M-Stage had another RCA input. Much appreciated!


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





choobaka said:


> Would anyone know how the m-stage compares to the amp section of the Nuforce Icon HDP? My current set-up is a Macbook Pro (via USB) -> HRT MSII -> Matrix M-stage -> HD598. But I want an optical input on my DAC so I can hook it up to my xbox 360 as well. So would I be missing anything from the m-stage if I switched my set-up to Macbook Pro -> Icon HDP -> HD598?
> 
> I guess another way to ask this would be asking whether you view going from the MSII+M-stage to an Icon HDP as a downgrade/upgrade/not a really noticeable difference. If it's either of the last two, I'll probably get the HDP. If it's a downgrade I'll just upgrade my DAC to one with USB and optical inputs.
> 
> Thanks in advance


 

 Well the Icon has a much higher output impedance (bad) and puts out less power than the Matrix, hard to see how the Icon would be a better headphone amp than the Matrix.
   
  Edit:
  for the price of the Icon you could buy a dedicated DAC better than either the Icon or the HRT MS II, for example, the Arcam rDAC, which has USB and optical inputs.
  You could sell the HRT to help offset the cost.


----------



## putente

*dogwan*, can you tell us the diameter and height of that nice volume knob you installed on your M-Stage?


----------



## EraserXIV

I took the stock knob off and measured the diameter of it to be 28mm, height I think was around 25mm. If you look closely, there is actually some room left in the hole, even with the stock knob, so it might be possible to fit a 30mm knob in there. I actually accidentally ordered a 30mm knob so I guess we'll soon find out, it was only $4 so if it doesn't work I'm not too worried


----------



## putente

I'm about to buy one of these amps, and it's supposed to be some lastest version (at least, according to the seller's description - _[size=small]"Matrix M-Stage Headphone Amplifier KHV (latest version) / Latest Version: new designed chassis for optimal cooling"[/size]_). Any knows or has this latest version, can tell me if the changes are just in the chassis?
   
  As sources, I'll be using my current Hifi CD player, and for the DAC, I'm thinking about buying the HRT Music Streamer 2. I'm hopping this new setup will be a big improvement over my current desktop setup (FiiO E7+E9 combo). What do you guys think about this? 
   
   
  For sure, I'll mod the volume knob on the M-Stage, and maybe later, I'll try some Op-amp change (this area is a completely unknown to me)...


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





putente said:


> I'm about to buy one of these amps, and it's supposed to be some lastest version (at least, according to the seller's description - _[size=small]"Matrix M-Stage Headphone Amplifier KHV (latest version) / Latest Version: new designed chassis for optimal cooling"[/size]_). Any knows or has this latest version, can tell me if the changes are just in the chassis?
> 
> As sources, I'll be using my current Hifi CD player, and for the DAC, I'm thinking about buying the HRT Music Streamer 2. I'm hopping this new setup will be a big improvement over my current desktop setup (FiiO E7+E9 combo). What do you guys think about this?
> 
> ...


 

 the "KHV" smells like BS to me.
  I bought one a couple months ago, so I guess it is "the latest version"
  it is a solid box, no vents for cooling and looks like any other Matrix M I've seen in the photos
   
  I tried an OPA627 op amp, I liked it, I recommend trying it if you have a Matrix.
  I also removed the input caps, this made a bigger difference than the change in Op Amp


----------



## putente

Thanks for the warning. The thing is that I live in Portugal, and we have somewhat strict customs here, so if I order anything from outside the EU, it's almost certain I'll have to pay extra custom fees and taxes. All the sellers I find in Hong-Kong and China aren't really an option for me, if I want to bay an M-Stage at "normal" price. So, I was considering the purchase at the only EU Matrix seller I found. It seemed legit to me, because he's selling all the Matrix line-up (Cube, Mini-I, M-Stage, Quattro), and also all Yulong line-up. I don't know what that "KHV" stands for, but a couple months ago, that same seller was selling M-Stage's also with that "KHV" in the name, and they were the regular model you mention, that can be found everywhere... 
   
  Quote: 





chris j said:


> the "KHV" smells like BS to me.
> I bought one a couple months ago, so I guess it is "the latest version"
> it is a solid box, no vents for cooling and looks like any other Matrix M I've seen in the photos
> 
> ...


----------



## HaVoC-28

Quote: 





putente said:


> Thanks for the warning. The thing is that I live in Portugal, and we have somewhat strict customs here, so if I order anything from outside the EU, it's almost certain I'll have to pay extra custom fees and taxes. All the sellers I find in Hong-Kong and China aren't really an option for me, if I want to bay an M-Stage at "normal" price. So, I was considering the purchase at the only EU Matrix seller I found. It seemed legit to me, because he's selling all the Matrix line-up (Cube, Mini-I, M-Stage, Quattro), and also all Yulong line-up. I don't know what that "KHV" stands for, but a couple months ago, that same seller was selling M-Stage's also with that "KHV" in the name, and they were the regular model you mention, that can be found everywhere...


 


  http://www.ampcity.co.uk/brands/matrix/matrix-m-stage-headphone-amp.html in England . 
   
  http://www.audiophonics.fr/matrix-mstage-amplificateur-casque-preamplificateur-classa-p-5442.html in France . 
   
  Ampcity is cheaper  . 
   
  (Both are legit ) .


----------



## putente

*HaVoC-28*, thanks a lot! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			







  Quote: 





havoc-28 said:


> http://www.ampcity.co.uk/brands/matrix/matrix-m-stage-headphone-amp.html in England .
> 
> http://www.audiophonics.fr/matrix-mstage-amplificateur-casque-preamplificateur-classa-p-5442.html in France .
> 
> ...


----------



## JuicyBruce

I tried a ISL55002 w/ Class-A mod in the M-Stage and the results were very good. I think this will permanently replace the AD797BRZ x2. This is feeding my K702s and the slight narrowing of the stereo spread really helped the imaging. Everything feels a bit tighter, smoother and more coherent. I had a desk drawer full of opamps which have been constantly swapped on a weekly basis for months and I think this is the winner.
  Still have a fairly radical EQ going on though... Between 8-10db reduction in some places.


----------



## purrin

Wow. Glad to see this thread still going strong and people having fun. I need to buy back one of these again and do some even more extreme mods than I did the first time around.


----------



## francisdemarte

Purrin:
   
  You should try the Lovely Cube if you want to do crazy mods


----------



## purrin

Forgot about that one - yeah that's a better mod platform.


----------



## Xymordos

I actually preferred the sound of LME49710HA rather than opa627/637sm


----------



## EraserXIV

Quote: 





xymordos said:


> I actually preferred the sound of LME49710HA rather than opa627/637sm


 


  I have the LME49710HA and I like it a lot, but I am getting curious about the OPA627 as well. What are your experiences about how they differ? Have you tried biasing them into Class-A?


----------



## purrin

More laid back. Biasing into Class A will make it less laid back as well as bring out the good stuff that already comes with Class A.


----------



## redwarrior191

Quote: 





purrin said:


> Wow. Glad to see this thread still going strong and people having fun. I need to buy back one of these again and do some even more extreme mods than I did the first time around.


 


  interesting.. you're already bored playing with the tubes on your BA?? haha..


----------



## purrin

Actually I've got super rare tubes coming in and modding the BA to take PX25s instead of PX4s.


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





juicybruce said:


> I tried a ISL55002 w/ Class-A mod in the M-Stage and the results were very good. I think this will permanently replace the AD797BRZ x2. This is feeding my K702s and the slight narrowing of the stereo spread really helped the imaging. Everything feels a bit tighter, smoother and more coherent. I had a desk drawer full of opamps which have been constantly swapped on a weekly basis for months and I think this is the winner.
> Still have a fairly radical EQ going on though... Between 8-10db reduction in some places.


 

 I love ISL55001.  Never tried it with Class A biasing.  How does it compare to not having class A biasing?
   
  To reduce how much "radical" equalization you need, I recommend that you dampen those resonances in your K701.  The improvement in the midrange and treble may blow your mind, but you sacrifice a little bit of bass impact.


----------



## Chris J

BTW,
   
  whoever recommended removing the input coupling cap on the Matrix..............thank you.
  What a great tweak.
  I really like what it does for the 'Stage. Increased clarity and apparent speed.


----------



## purrin

Welcome 
   
  Glad to see more people are doing it. Make sure you check the DC on your source.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





purrin said:


> Welcome
> 
> Glad to see more people are doing it. Make sure you check the DC on your source.


 


 It's zero, I checked.
  Every Stage fan should try this tweak, 'cos the price is right.
  thanks for asking


----------



## JuicyBruce

Quote: 





mad max said:


> I love ISL55001.  Never tried it with Class A biasing.  How does it compare to not having class A biasing?
> 
> To reduce how much "radical" equalization you need, I recommend that you dampen those resonances in your K701.  The improvement in the midrange and treble may blow your mind, but you sacrifice a little bit of bass impact.


 


  The class a is one that Topflight Ron sent me to try out for the D10. Its great in the D10 but amazing in the M-Stage so there it stays. I dont have one un-biased so I cant compare sorry. Ron will be able to tell you.
  I did try some of those "friend or foe" fabric ring mods that I saw a while ago but preferred some precise EQ. I'd like to give yours a try though. Ill let you know what I think!


----------



## BLUnSOULFULjazz

what's the difference between opa627 class a biasing and dual opa627?
  will biasing make much difference?


----------



## Xymordos

Quote: 





eraserxiv said:


> I have the LME49710HA and I like it a lot, but I am getting curious about the OPA627 as well. What are your experiences about how they differ? Have you tried biasing them into Class-A?


 
  OPA627 was very very transparent. There was more bass quantity in general, and a lot of punch in the midbass regions, Larger soundstage but treble was too sharp for me. Vocals were clear but emotionless...well the entire thing was sorta emotionless anyways. Extremely aggressive and cold sound. Heaps of dynamics.
   
  LME49710HA is a lot less clear, with smaller soundstage (still big). Laid back, in fact very laid back imo. Less dynamics, but more emotional and warm.


----------



## EraserXIV

Quote: 





xymordos said:


> OPA627 was very very transparent. There was more bass quantity in general, and a lot of punch in the midbass regions, Larger soundstage but treble was too sharp for me. Vocals were clear but emotionless...well the entire thing was sorta emotionless anyways. Extremely aggressive and cold sound. Heaps of dynamics.
> 
> LME49710HA is a lot less clear, with smaller soundstage (still big). Laid back, in fact very laid back imo. Less dynamics, but more emotional and warm.


 


  Very interesting, from reading the thread, I was getting the impression that the OPA627 was the more laid back, darker sounding opamp and the LME49710HA was to the brighter side of tonality. Thanks for your impressions!
   
  Out of curiosity, where did you buy your OPA627?


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





juicybruce said:


> The class a is one that Topflight Ron sent me to try out for the D10. Its great in the D10 but amazing in the M-Stage so there it stays. I dont have one un-biased so I cant compare sorry. Ron will be able to tell you.
> I did try some of those "friend or foe" fabric ring mods that I saw a while ago but preferred some precise EQ. I'd like to give yours a try though. Ill let you know what I think!


 

 Oh I see.  ISL55001/55002 requires very, very clean power and thus tends to sound its best in desktop gear.


----------



## Xymordos

Farnell...cost me a crap load unfortunately since the price of opamps jumped by so much suddenly! 
   
  Oh by the way, just so you know I'm listening from a W5000. Vocals were too emotionless and dry for my tastes. None of the opamps are dark! Ones forward and the others laid back.


----------



## PelPix

So uh, has anyone noticed that there's an entirely new version of the M-Stage?
  2011 V1
  Optional USB DAC and a bunch of general upgrades


----------



## Balmoral

Quote: 





pelpix said:


> So uh, has anyone noticed that there's an entirely new version of the M-Stage?
> 2011 V1
> Optional USB DAC and a bunch of general upgrades


 

  
  Edit- NM..found what you were talking about.
http://tamaudio.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=36&product_id=108


----------



## trazom

Hello friends, I need your knowledge.
   I have a Asus Essence STX sound card and Sennheiser HD6550. I wonder if this couple could work well with an M-Stage Matrix. If this sounds like a good choice, is there a vendor in particular that trust? Are there changes to be made for the Matrix sounds great?
Thank you.


----------



## JuicyBruce

Quote: 





balmoral said:


> Edit- NM..found what you were talking about.
> http://tamaudio.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=36&product_id=108


 

 "The M-stage is a fairly basic headphone amp".
   
  I guess they arent hoping to sell too many of these things.


----------



## Balmoral

Quote: 





juicybruce said:


> "The M-stage is a fairly basic headphone amp".
> 
> I guess they arent hoping to sell too many of these things.


 


 "Fairly basic" is not necessarily a bad thing as a descriptive.  If it performs at the same level as the original M-stage, but offers the convenience of a usb dac I think it will do well.


----------



## francisdemarte

That description is terrible if you wanted to sell something. I wonder if Matrix also cloned the Lehmann BCL USB's dac as well?


----------



## putente

Well, I also noticed that new DAC option for the M-Stage at Tamaudio some days ago, but I googled it and got nothing relevant. Maybe it's just "too" new... If the USB DAC is good, it seems a great deal (for those who don't already have a good USB DAC)...


----------



## Balmoral

Quote: 





francisdemarte said:


> That description is terrible if you wanted to sell something. I wonder if Matrix also cloned the Lehmann BCL USB's dac as well?


 

 Not sure about the USB dac, but I think the description of the Matrix is pretty accurate actually.  It IS a fairly basic headphone amp that performs very well for the price.  Just mho of course.


----------



## Androxylo

Quote: 





etahl said:


> The slim profile of the M-Stage is the reason for using a small diameter knob. Otherwise, when turning the knob, your finger will be bumping and rubbing on the table.
> All it needs is some texture on the knob, sand, bead blasted or knurled, for better grip.


 

 Frankly I'm changing the volume on my amp... well.. maybe twice a year...


----------



## GamerOne

I'm strongly considering getting an M-stage for my K701. I'm currently running my K701 straight out of the internal headphone-amp on an Essence ST and I think it sounds amazing! Although I would like bit more warmth to the sound. Would the M-stage provide this? Would any other aspects of the sound improve significantly with an M-stage as well?
   
  Has anyone here compared the amp on an Essence ST/STX with an M-stage?
   
  At least from what I've read on the forums here the M-stage and K701 are a very good match.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





gamerone said:


> I'm strongly considering getting an M-stage for my K701. I'm currently running my K701 straight out of the internal headphone-amp on an Essence ST and I think it sounds amazing! Although I would like bit more warmth to the sound. Would the M-stage provide this? Would any other aspects of the sound improve significantly with an M-stage as well?
> 
> Has anyone here compared the amp on an Essence ST/STX with an M-stage?
> 
> At least from what I've read on the forums here the M-stage and K701 are a very good match.


 


   
  Hey there,
  Yes the K701 and M Stage are a good combination.
  I have no experience with the essence STX but I would think that the M Stage is a better head amp.
  You will probably get more articulation, deeper bass, tighter bass, more dynamics and clarity but I would not call the M Stage a warm amp.
  If you want warmth I would get a tube head amp, when I want warmth I go to my La Figaro 336C.


----------



## HaVoC-28

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Hey there,
> Yes the K701 and M Stage are a good combination.
> I have no experience with the essence STX but I would think that the M Stage is a beeter head amp.
> you will probably get more articulation, deeper bass, tighter bass, more dynamics and clarity but I would not call the M Stage a warm amp.
> If you want warmth I would get a tube head amp, when I want warmth I go to my La Figaro 336 C.


 


   
  M-Stage with Stock OPA2134 is a bit on the warm side for me ^^ . But you can go even warmer with another set of opamp 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.
   
  M-stage is clearly superior to ST AMP (allready answerd to gamer one on K701 thread) .
   
  But yeah many tube head amp are warm ...(not all tube amp are warm too 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) .


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





havoc-28 said:


> M-Stage with Stock OPA2134 is a bit on the warm side for me ^^ . But you can go even warmer with another set of opamp
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


  You can add warmth with opamps, but can you make the m-stage neutral as well?  Or will it always be on the warm side regardless of opamp?


----------



## putente

From what I've read so far about that matter, I believe you can "tune" the sound of the M-Stage to your liking with the use of different opamps, and other mods... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  
  Quote: 





chicolom said:


> You can add warmth with opamps, but can you make the m-stage neutral as well?  Or will it always be on the warm side regardless of opamp?


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





putente said:


> From what I've read so far about that matter, I believe you can "tune" the sound of the M-Stage to your liking with the use of different opamps, and other mods...


 


 I guess I should pointed out that IMHO whatever you do to the Matrix M, it will still not be as warm as a warm, tubey sounding tube amp.  Frankly, I like the Matrix M for it's "solid state" qualities and when I want tube lushness, tube sound, tube warmth or whatever I reach for the tubes.
  I'm a switch hitter, but only in amps, (not that there's anything wrong with it)....that's for all you Seinfeld fans, LOL.
  What can I say,   YMMV,   enjoy


----------



## purrin

Quote: 





gamerone said:


> I'm strongly considering getting an M-stage for my K701. I'm currently running my K701 straight out of the internal headphone-amp on an Essence ST and I think it sounds amazing! Although I would like bit more warmth to the sound. Would the M-stage provide this? Would any other aspects of the sound improve significantly with an M-stage as well?
> 
> Has anyone here compared the amp on an Essence ST/STX with an M-stage?
> 
> At least from what I've read on the forums here the M-stage and K701 are a very good match.


 

 I did not like the headphone out on the Essence ST/STX because of a certain hardness and glare. Using the M-Stage as the amp, I had no such issues. Expect the M-Stage to be much cleaner sounding. In stock form, it is a little warm. You can even give it more warmth with LM4592.


----------



## GreatDane

10% off this amp. Black Friday.


----------



## putente

Where?
  
  Quote: 





greatdane said:


> 10% off this amp. Black Friday.


----------



## GreatDane

http://tamaudio.com/store/index.php?route=common/home


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





greatdane said:


> http://tamaudio.com/store/index.php?route=common/home


 


 Hayley is sooo cute.
  Nice voice too.
   
  Sorry, CNR
   
  Back to the Matrix M:
  Chicolom,
  I removed the input coupling cap from my M Stage. I felt this was a positive step towards neutrality (I'm trying to get my Matrix to sound more neutral). Just make sure your source (or sources) has no DC at the output.


----------



## GreatDane

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Hayley is sooo cute.
> Nice voice too.
> 
> Sorry, CNR
> ...


 
  I did order a modded M-Stage , 10 % off. I'm not sure if I want to try the input caps mod because I tend to use different sources.
   
  I assume you saw my "Hayley!" Webshots? Obviously I think she's very cute too.lol


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Chicolom,
> I removed the input coupling cap from my M Stage. I felt this was a positive step towards neutrality (I'm trying to get my Matrix to sound more neutral). Just make sure your source (or sources) has no DC at the output.


 


  What happens when you remove the input caps (in regards to sources)?  I googled and saw something about "DC offset" and it being dangerous for the headphones....


----------



## purrin

Quote:  





> What happens when you remove the input caps (in regards to sources)?  I googled and saw something about "DC offset" and it being dangerous for the headphones....


 

 You need to verify that your source has little or no DC offset. Most sources (DACs, DAPs, etc.) have capacitors on the output and therefore are safe. Still nothing can be guaranteed and it's best to measure with a DMM. More than a few millivolts, and the amp will multiply that voltage, and possibly make your headphone's voice coils melt (either suddenly or slowly over time.)


----------



## Majestyk

I might buy this amp today.  What opamp should I get along with it and should I have it CLASS A biased?
   
  How about this?
   
   http://tamaudio.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=39_46&product_id=91
   
  Thanks!


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





majestyk said:


> I might buy this amp today.  What opamp should I get along with it and should I have it CLASS A biased?
> 
> How about this?
> 
> ...


 


 I have one with the stock Op Amp, an OPA627 and a Class A biased OPA627, just like what you have in your link to Tam Audio.    Which is nice so I am able to swap around and see what I like and what I don't like.
  The Class A biased OPA627 is better than the stock Op Amp but also slightly warm................I gotta keep looking for something more towards the neutral side.


----------



## Majestyk

Quote: 





chris j said:


> .I gotta keep looking for something more towards the neutral side.


 

 So you think the Class A biased OPA627 is too warm?


----------



## purrin

The OPA627 is not necessarily warm, but more sort of laid back with a lot detail retrieval. The class A mod makes it less laid back.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





majestyk said:


> So you think the Class A biased OPA627 is too warm?


 


 Honestly, I think ya really gotta try it yourself with your 'phones.
  Everyone will have a slightly different (but valid) opinion. 
  Personallyy, I would get the extra Op Amp, it will give you a little taste of Op Amp rolling.
  But for me, I am still seeking a bit more neutrality...........maybe I'm just nitpicky.
  But I firmly believe that the Class A OPA627 sounds better than the stock Op Amp.
  I still haven't got around to using my "standard" OPA627 in my M Stage.
   
  Bottom line is I'm a big M Stage fan with either Op Amp.


----------



## Majestyk

Hey guys, thanks for the info!


----------



## project86

The USB version seems like a good buy, since it only adds $30 to the price. You could do a lot worse than having a TAS1020B USB receiver and TI PCM1793 DAC chip. The power supply in the M-Stage is already in place anyway, so it seems easy enough to add the USB section.
   
  I doubt this is an all out assault on the high end DAC world..... but what are you going to get for $30 that is going to remotely compete? 
   
  I read somewhere that the real BCL uses a single chip solution, probably from the PCM270X series. If that is the case, the M-Stage USB option should be far better.


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





project86 said:


> The USB version seems like a good buy, since it only adds $30 to the price. You could do a lot worse than having a TAS1020B USB receiver and TI PCM1793 DAC chip. The power supply in the M-Stage is already in place anyway, so it seems easy enough to add the USB section.
> 
> I doubt this is an all out assault on the high end DAC world..... but what are you going to get for $30 that is going to remotely compete?
> 
> I read somewhere that the real BCL uses a single chip solution, probably from the PCM270X series. If that is the case, the M-Stage USB option should be far better.


 


  Wow, I didn't even know that existed.  They sure don't advertise the USB version at all.  It seems like that would be the version to get, as $30 is _cheap _for a DAC. 
   
  I may be getting an M-stage at some point, so this looks enticing.


----------



## project86

Quote: 





chicolom said:


> Wow, I didn't even know that existed.  They sure don't advertise the USB version at all.  It seems like that would be the version to get, as $30 is _cheap _for a DAC.
> 
> I may be getting an M-stage at some point, so this looks enticing.


 


  I didn't either until PelPix brought it up a few days ago and Balmoral posted a link. 
   
  Right now, with the 10% off Black Friday deal that Tam Audio has, it is $280 - $28 which basically makes the USB section free compared to buying the non-USB version after the sale ends (that's one way of looking at it).


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





project86 said:


> The USB version seems like a good buy, since it only adds $30 to the price. You could do a lot worse than having a TAS1020B USB receiver and TI PCM1793 DAC chip. The power supply in the M-Stage is already in place anyway, so it seems easy enough to add the USB section.
> 
> I doubt this is an all out assault on the high end DAC world..... but what are you going to get for $30 that is going to remotely compete?
> 
> I read somewhere that the real BCL uses a single chip solution, probably from the PCM270X series. If that is the case, the M-Stage USB option should be far better.


 

No kidding.  And what looks like a rollable output opamp to boot.
  The BCL USB board is probably using PCM2704 and as both receiver _and_ DAC.


----------



## purrin

Whoa, that's nifty. The transformer on the real deal looks much bigger.


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





mad max said:


> No kidding.  And what looks like a rollable output opamp to boot.
> The BCL USB board is probably using PCM2704 and as both receiver _and_ DAC.


 


  Cool!  Nice find.
   
Here's a google translated version of the USB M-Stage page
   
  It looks like that USB chip is a perfect fit


----------



## tono

I've a few question ,
  I got Senn HD25 and HiFiman He300.
  Does M-stage match my headphone?


----------



## Majestyk

No USB for me.  The USB takes away one set of RCA inputs, and I'll be using both...Although most people would not.


----------



## Majestyk

What ever happened to that Earth opamp by Audio-GD?  What was the consensus on them?  Can you still get it?  Thanks!


----------



## alphaphoenix

USB - nice. Santa is coming early.


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





majestyk said:


> What ever happened to that Earth opamp by Audio-GD?  What was the consensus on them?  Can you still get it?  Thanks!


 


  I'm sure you can still get it -> http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/diy/OPA/OPAEN.htm


----------



## paulywalnutz

Cool amP


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





majestyk said:


> What ever happened to that Earth opamp by Audio-GD?  What was the consensus on them?  Can you still get it?  Thanks!


 
   
  It's meh and has rolled-off bass.


----------



## Majestyk

Ah, so it's passé now.    I remember when it first came out it was quite hyped up.


----------



## putente

Same here. One of the reasons I'm about to buy the M-Stage is because of the dual RCA input. I guess I'll keep my initial plan to buy the HRT MS2 as dedicated USB DAC...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
  Quote: 





majestyk said:


> No USB for me.  The USB takes away one set of RCA inputs, and I'll be using both...Although most people would not.


 


   

 Great find, that link! In that page, we can see the new coolling chassis for the M-Stage. And there's also an "USB Audio DAC" from Matrix, which I never seen before, that looks very promising (http://www.matrix-digi.com/english/cpshow.asp?pid=33).
   
  Quote: 





mad max said:


> No kidding.  And what looks like a rollable output opamp to boot.
> The BCL USB board is probably using PCM2704 and as both receiver _and_ DAC.


----------



## Chris J

Makes me wanna sell my 4 month old M Stage!


----------



## EraserXIV

I should be content with my y2 to M-stage, but for some reason I'm curious how this new USB module sounds. I'm sure it's not going to be on the same level of the y2, but if it even comes somewhat close, at the fraction of the price it may be nice as a one-box solution.


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Makes me wanna sell my 4 month old M Stage!


 

 Just get an NFB-2 instead.


----------



## francisdemarte

Has anyone tried the NJM2903 op amp?
   
   
  I just finished building the much talked about O2 Amp which uses this op amp. It's excellent for the price and was an easy build. The sound is very clean and clear and tips more toward the neutral side.
   
  If you like a sound thats more up front and with more treble energy than the OPA627 than this is well worth a try. It's also dirt cheap at $0.39/chip at Mouser.
   
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/NJR/NJM2903D/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMuS%2fmO2LfY7hmY4WczzinzbK0Vhar5ZiHI%3d
   
  Datasheet:
http://semicon.njr.co.jp/njr/hp/productDetail.do?_isTopPage=false&_productId=951&_moveKbn=PRODUCT_DETAIL_MOVE_SPEC


----------



## chicolom

Argh!! 
  I've been reading through this thread for an hour or two looking at all the the different opamp mods.  Its a bit confusing, there's so many of them.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Is there any posts or threads listing them all and comparing them?  And saying where to buy the different ones?
   
   
  Seems like that would be a _great _thread to make.  That way you could update keep a list of opamps on the front page and update it with new opamps, impressions, where to buy, etc.  Sure would beat searching through this thread and peoples' post history trying to round them all up.
   
  Something like:
   
  "Matrix M-Stage: Guide to Opamp Rolling"
  "Matrix M-Stage: Tweaking the Sound with Opamps"
  "Matrix M-Stage: Opamp Comparisons & Impressions"
   
  I don't know....something like that.
   
  I'm just throwing that out there.  It sure would really help up noobs who come to this thread trying to play with the M-Stage sound.
   
  Anyone want to jump on that ^ ?  Purrin?


----------



## francisdemarte

Quote: 





chicolom said:


> Argh!!
> I've been reading through this thread for an hour or two looking at all the the different opamp mods.  Its a bit confusing, there's so many of them.
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  I think you just volunteered yourself


----------



## putente

Apart from who should take the iniciative on this, I also think it would be a great help for lots of us! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  Quote: 





chicolom said:


> Argh!!
> I've been reading through this thread for an hour or two looking at all the the different opamp mods.  Its a bit confusing, there's so many of them.
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





chicolom said:


> Argh!!
> I've been reading through this thread for an hour or two looking at all the the different opamp mods.  Its a bit confusing, there's so many of them.
> 
> 
> ...


 


 The good news is that there already is one, you are reading it right now!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  The bads news is that you only have to go thru over 2110 posts to find what you are looking for. Ahhhhh!
  But you already know this, so you share my agony!


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





chris j said:


> The good news is that there already is one, you are reading it right now!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

  




   
  The M-stage opamp discussions should be decoupled into a separate thread to make it easier to find and post opamp specific info!  
   
  If someone gave me all the info I would type it up/format it for them...I probably shouldn't be the thread starter though - as I am a m-stage noob.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





chicolom said:


> The M-stage opamp discussions should be decoupled into a separate thread to make it easier to find and post opamp specific info!
> 
> If someone gave me all the info I would type it up/format it for them...I probably shouldn't be the thread starter though - as I am a m-stage noob.


 


 Anyone is welcome to start a thread!


----------



## JuicyBruce

Quote: 





mad max said:


> Oh I see.  ISL55001/55002 requires very, very clean power and thus tends to sound its best in desktop gear.


 

 Agreed - I hadnt noticed how noisy it is in the M-Stage (all listening is done at work). I thought I was just hearing the aircon. Maybe this is the class A biasing?


----------



## HydronQc

should I order the New Matrix M-Stage Usb or a M-Stage + a Fiio D3?
  PCM1793 Vs WM8805


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





hydronqc said:


> should I order the New Matrix M-Stage Usb or a M-Stage + a Fiio D3?
> PCM1793 Vs WM8805


 


  FiiO D3 doesn't have USB input...


----------



## HydronQc

Quote: 





chicolom said:


> FiiO D3 doesn't have USB input...


 


  I'm fine with it I can use the optical. I'm just wondering whats the best dac chip .


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





hydronqc said:


> I'm fine with it I can use the optical. I'm just wondering whats the best dac chip .


 


  Oh.  I've never read anything about the WM8805 before.  You could try asking the dedicate source forum as well.


----------



## chicolom

It looks like Purrin sold his m-stage a year ago!  What champion will rise and help make a new opamp thread?


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





juicybruce said:


> Agreed - I hadnt noticed how noisy it is in the M-Stage (all listening is done at work). I thought I was just hearing the aircon. Maybe this is the class A biasing?


 

 55001 doesn't like a lot of gain either, hence the noise.  Relatively quiet with K701, at least.  The M-Stage's power supply is fine for 55001.
   

  
  Quote: 





hydronqc said:


> should I order the New Matrix M-Stage Usb or a M-Stage + a Fiio D3?
> PCM1793 Vs WM8805


 

 WM8805 is a SPDIF receiver (and a really good one at that), PCM1793 is a DAC chip.  The M-Stage USB DAC is using the TAS1020B USB receiver (accepts greater sample and bit rates over PCM270x).  The D3's DAC chip is some Cirrus Logic DAC, isn't it?  Or a Wolfson?  It won't be on par with PCM1793 in either case.


----------



## putente

It's a Cirrus Logic. You can see more details about the D3 here: http://hifiduino.wordpress.com/2011/06/23/inside-fiio-d3/
  
  Quote: 





mad max said:


> WM8805 is a SPDIF receiver (and a really good one at that), PCM1793 is a DAC chip.  The M-Stage USB DAC is using the TAS1020B USB receiver (accepts greater sample and bit rates over PCM270x).  The D3's DAC chip is some Cirrus Logic DAC, isn't it?  Or a Wolfson?  It won't be on par with PCM1793 in either case.


----------



## chicolom

Just ordered a new silver Matrix M-Stage USB
   
  *Breathes sigh of relief*
   
  Ok.  Time to get some opamps.
   
  I'm would like to make it a bit brighter, more neutral, transparent, etc.  Also anything with the better soundstage performance width/depth gets priority.
   
  Mad Max, can you drop some knowledge on me?
   
  This sounds like what I'd like:
   
  "I prefer a more refined and transparent sound, so I gravitate towards analytical-to-death opamps like OPA602 and ADA4627, then OPA827 and OPA209 are more musical yet still maintaining a merciless degree of transparency (there's something special about OPA209 + Grados).  Best soundstaging is OPA602 and OPA827, hands down, followed closely by AD797, ADA4627, ISL55001 (you can only use this one at very low gain, though), and OPA1641.  1602 is very natural and organic sounding yet still very transparent (does an incredible job with harmonics, I mean, and is neutral as well)."
   
  So, seems like OPA602 and OPA287 could have good soundstage, and are analytical....
   
  Could you give me some recommendations/advice? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
   
  Some other options I searched and found:
    2x AD797ANZ      +     2x1 adapter
    2x HA3-2525-5                 "
    TLE2081ACP
   
  but these non-soldered (non-class a biased)?  so inferior to other options?
   
   
  Thanks


----------



## francisdemarte

For a more forward and brighter sound, here are my favorites. You can sometimes go to the makers website and get free samples sent to you.
   
  NJM2903
  ADA4627-1B (these are soic and needs a dual adapter)
   
  The ADA4627-1B is a long time favorite. I think it offers the best combination of the laid back romantic sounding OPA627 and brighter more forward NJM2903.


----------



## HydronQc

I have a question for the New Matrix M-Stage USB. Is the dac working when using the RCA input or its only working when the usb input is used.
  Thanks


----------



## alphaphoenix

I'll let you know when I receive mine.


----------



## JuicyBruce

Quote: 





mad max said:


> 55001 doesn't like a lot of gain either, hence the noise.  Relatively quiet with K701, at least.  The M-Stage's power supply is fine for 55001.


 

  Ah - thanks! I had it set to +18db for some reason. Its back on +10 and the 55001 seems comfortable here. I just finished yet another round of rolling and settled on the 55001 for the third time running. This is rare for me cos my tonal taste changes daily and my audio memory cannot be trusted at the best of times. Some days all opamps sound the same while other days the difference is astounding. 
  If an M-Stage opamp thread does kick off id love to share my opinions. 2*TLE2141 class a, LT1335 and AD797BRZ were the main competitors. I like to try a 55001 sans class a bias to see how it sounds. As it stands it wipes the floor with anything I have here.


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





chicolom said:


> Just ordered a new silver Matrix M-Stage USB
> 
> *Breathes sigh of relief*
> 
> ...


 

 HA3-2525 doesn't like too much gain either like ISL55001.  One should stay at gain of 10 for those two.  AD797 is one of my favorites, but I don't like it at all without any psu bypassing.  There's plenty of people who do anyway.
  TLE2081ACP is an okay chip.
   
  I haven't tinkered with Class A biasing at all, it is mostly OPA627, AD744, OPA211/1611 and older opamps that benefit from it, going by what I've read.  Also, I'm too lazy to bother.  =p
   
  OPA827 is quite nice - bass and precision of a good FET opamp with the more organic and very clean midrange of a bipolar.
   
  I also love an energetic sound, so that puts 4627 at the top of the list for me.  Without psu bypassing, however, 4627's bass loses some extension and the sound becomes more rounded and textured.
   
  A friend thinks OPA602's soundstage is the very best, but its bass isn't as thick as 797, 827, and 4627.  It's sound is very clean and clear.
   
  For a brighter sound, definitely 4627 or 827 as they have the clearest, sparkliest treble.  797 lacks treble clarity altogether, or maybe it is just the B grade, I don't know what's up with that chip.

  
  Quote: 





francisdemarte said:


> For a more forward and brighter sound, here are my favorites. You can sometimes go to the makers website and get free samples sent to you.
> 
> NJM2903
> ADA4627-1B (these are soic and needs a dual adapter)
> ...


 
   
  By laid-back, do you mean deeper soundstage?  4627 is definitely one of the deeper ones in my collection.  AD797, OPA602, OPA827, and ISL55001 all fall under that group as well.  I like plenty of depth.


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





francisdemarte said:


> For a more forward and brighter sound, here are my favorites. You can sometimes go to the makers website and get free samples sent to you.
> 
> NJM2903
> ADA4627-1B (these are soic and needs a dual adapter)
> ...


 


  Thanks!
   
  I'll look into the ADA4627-1B.
   
  Which one of these three would it be?
  http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?x=0&y=0&lang=en&site=us&KeyWords=ADA4627-1B
   
  First one is $20, the other two are $12-13.  Or is there a better place to get them?
   
  Where do you get your soic dual adapters from?  
   
  I can't tell how the soic chips attach, since the spokes are flat on the bottom and don't plug in like the DIP chips.  Are they "plug-n-play" with the adapter?  or you have to solder 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 My soldering skills are garbage.
   
  And finally, do you class A bias the adapter with this setup?


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





mad max said:


> HA3-2525 doesn't like too much gain either like ISL55001.  One should stay at gain of 10 for those two.  AD797 is one of my favorites, but I don't like it at all without any psu bypassing.  There's plenty of people who do anyway.
> TLE2081ACP is an okay chip.
> 
> I haven't tinkered with Class A biasing at all, it is mostly OPA627, AD744, OPA211/1611 and older opamps that benefit from it, going by what I've read.  Also, I'm too lazy to bother.  =p
> ...


 

 Oooh.  Juicy post.  Let me start digesting all that.
   
  BTW, this ^ is _exactly _the kind of stuff that would be great in a dedicated thread - >http://www.head-fi.org/t/475618/matrix-m-stage-amp-review-simple-cheap-and-excellent/2100#post_7926991


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





chicolom said:


> Thanks!
> 
> I'll look into the ADA4627-1B.
> 
> ...


 

 Whichever, but obviously this one as it does not have a minimum quantity of order and is in stock.
  Yes, you can try biasing the adapter to class A.
   
  You can use whatever opamp adapters that you want, preferably ones with relatively even length 2oz. copper traces.  Here's some.  Sjostrom sells more tricked out adapters (you will want ADP03, I keep forgetting to try those out).


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





mad max said:


> Whichever, but obviously this one as it does not have a minimum quantity of order and is in stock.
> Yes, you can try biasing the adapter to class A.
> 
> You can use whatever opamp adapters that you want, preferably ones with relatively even length 2oz. copper traces.  Here's some.  Sjostrom sells more tricked out adapters (you will want ADP03, I keep forgetting to try those out).


 

 Thank you for the info and for the links Mad Max & francisdemarte!
   
  The ADA4627-1B looks promising.
   
  I just requested 2 ADA4627 samples from Analog Devices.  I'll see if they actually ship them.
   

 So its* 2x* 4627's on a dual soic to dip 8 adapter?  One on top and one on bottom?
 Is there any trick to assembling those adapters?  It looks like you just poke the pins through the PCB, but I can't really tell.
 Looks like those adapters are tinned right? So shouldn't need extra solder - should just be easy to re-flow it.
 There's no cons to doing the PSU bypassing on the ADA4627?  Besides looking ridiculous?  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  I searched and found this link, and this one.  Not sure what you do with them though...
   
   
  I guess I will leave out the Class A biasing if it doesn't benefit the newer opamps...


----------



## francisdemarte

1. Yes, I find that the top and bottom adapters work the best. In some board layouts there is not enough room for a side by side adapter.
   
  2. It's a surface mount IC so there are no holes to poke though. The pads are pre-tinned so all you have to so is add a bit of flux and carefully align the chip. Load up your iron tip with some solder, hold the chip in place and let the solder flow off the tip onto the chip/pad. You need a stead hand as the parts are small, especially with the bottom chip since you have to maneuver the iron between the DIP adapter legs. Once you get some practice, you can probably do one in 5-10 minutes.
   
  3. Yes they are pre-tinned, but you need some touch of extra solder for a good joint.
   
  4. Never tried it.


----------



## Mad Max

I think he meant the pins for the adapter board itself.  Yes, you just poke the pins through the board (make sure you do it through the correct side!) then flux and solder.  Do this _after_ you have soldered-on the opamps themselves.  One pin at a time, make sure not to overheat the opamps to avoid damaging them.
   
  For psu bypassing, use this ceramic cap instead of the one you linked to in addition to the MKP1837 film cap.  You add them across pins 4 & 8 on the bottom of the adapter after you have assembled it.  They clean up the power reaching the opamp a bit more.  The improvement in sound is worth more than what you pay for those capacitors, I think.  =]


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





mad max said:


> *I think he meant the pins for the adapter board itself.*  Yes, you just poke the pins through the board (make sure you do it through the correct side!) then flux and solder.  Do this _after_ you have soldered-on the opamps themselves.  One pin at a time, make sure not to overheat the opamps to avoid damaging them.
> 
> For psu bypassing, use this ceramic cap instead of the one you linked to in addition to the MKP1837 film cap.  You add them across pins 4 & 8 on the bottom of the adapter after you have assembled it.  They clean up the power reaching the opamp a bit more.  The improvement in sound is worth more than what you pay for those capacitors, I think.  =]


 


  Ya, I meant the leg pins for the board itself.  That's a good tip to save the pins for last, they would get in the way otherwise. 
   
  Here's a video on youtube of a guy soldering a soic chip.  Is this a good way to do it?  He makes it look easy :\
   
  I think i might have some old opamps and dip boards I can practice on!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
   
  The psu bypassing looks a little trickier.  Not sure where the wires go after they've been soldered on the pins.  Looks like the might meet up and then go up into the cap thing somehow...


----------



## Mad Max

It's fine I guess.
   
  I place the opamp on the adapter, line up the chip's pins with the corresponding solder pads (pin 1 will be marked with a white dot, line, or number "1") add flux then solder one pin, make sure the opamp is cool, then solder another on the opposite side of the opamp to hold the thing down (pins 1 & 5 or 4 & 8), then I continue soldering pins and making sure that the opamp is cool between pins.
   
  The way you see that I added the caps here is exactly how you can add them.  I remove some plastic off of each power supply pin then tin the spot so that I can solder things on.  The ceramic capacitor is on the underside of each module and not readily visible in that photo.  The better way to do this is to have a set of capacitors for each pin and connect them to signal ground somewhere nearby, as close to the opamps as possible, but then you won't be able to easily swap opamps anymore that way.  Even better is if you have individual ceramic caps for each chip, soldered directly to each chip's power pins, but that's a little risky because you can damage the opamp with too much heat, so I think soldering to the adapter instead is a bit easier.  If you simply solder to the tops of the adapter pins then only the top opamp will benefit.  You will get noticeably better sound in the right channel and not the left, lol!
   
  You can read in this thread about some of the HDAM users doing the same thing but with Russian PIO (paper-in-oil) capacitors.  The HDAM has the convenience of an extra ground wire to connect the psu bypass caps to signal ground somewhere in the amp or DAC you throw the opamp into, but another head-fier in the Zero DAC threads supposedly found out from Burson that the HDAMs prefer ungrounded bypassing.  Whether connecting to ground or connecting across the power pins is better for other opamps depends on the quality of the ground in the equipment, I'm told.  Well, we can just try both and see for ourselves.  =]


----------



## chicolom

The soic adapter's won't get here till Christmas, they're on the slow boat from China.  
   
  O_0


----------



## francisdemarte

I like Brown Dog's adapters. A little pricier but very nice quality and I don't have to wait as long. http://cimarrontechnology.com


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





francisdemarte said:


> I like Brown Dog's adapters. A little pricier but very nice quality and I don't have to wait as long. http://cimarrontechnology.com


 


  Oh, ya.  I ran across those. 
   
  Is this the right one?  -> http://cimarrontechnology.com/single-to-dualop-ampadapterpn020302.aspx
   
  Edit:  Also this one would be for dip opamps like the OPA602 ?  ->  http://cimarrontechnology.com/single-to-dualop-ampadapter-dipversionpn021001.aspx


----------



## EraserXIV

Much better.


----------



## francisdemarte

Quote: 





chicolom said:


> Oh, ya.  I ran across those.
> 
> Is this the right one?  -> http://cimarrontechnology.com/single-to-dualop-ampadapterpn020302.aspx
> 
> ...


----------



## chicolom

On the DIP adapter page it had the option to buy it with two sockets pre-installed, so I did that.  I didn't see the separate sockets.  It cost $6 pre-installed though Vs. $1.50 for those separate sockets : \ Oh well
   
  Do the sockets just plug into top of the PCB or do they also need soldering?
   
   
  Edit:  I also requested some OPA602 and OPA827 samples.  It seemed suspiciously easy to do....I hope they follow through....


----------



## putente

Musch better indeed!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  What's the diameter and height of that new knob?
  
  Quote: 





eraserxiv said:


> Much better.


----------



## EraserXIV

It's a 30x22mm knob, I bought it off ebay. It's just a tad long, but I'm not complaining, it's a _*much *_better upgrade over the stock knob. Turning the knob requires much less effort and I can fine tune the volume a lot better now.
   
  If the world were perfect, I think something around a 30x18 know would be more geometrically pleasing due to the long shape of the m-stage. I am very pleased with the results though 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.


----------



## putente

Well, I'm about to buy a black M-Stage, and I already found a nice 40x22mm aluminium knob in black on eBay. I think it will also be a nice upgrade. If that 30x22 already looks (and feels) so good, to me, the 40x22 will be even better... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  Quote: 





eraserxiv said:


> It's a 30x22mm knob, I bought it off ebay. It's just a tad long, but I'm not complaining, it's a _*much *_better upgrade over the stock knob. Turning the knob requires much less effort and I can fine tune the volume a lot better now.
> 
> If the world were perfect, I think something around a 30x18 know would be more geometrically pleasing due to the long shape of the m-stage. I am very pleased with the results though
> 
> ...


----------



## EraserXIV

Be careful, I don't think a 40x22 will fit in the slot.


----------



## putente

I was about to ask you about that! That 40x22 knob says it has a 6mm shaft diameter, which is the same as some 30x22 I also found. Isn't that enough? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
   Quote:


eraserxiv said:


> Be careful, I don't think a 40x22 will fit in the slot.


----------



## EraserXIV

It will fit on the alps potentiometer, but it won't sit completely into the hole that is cut out on the faceplate of the M-Stage.


----------



## putente

I see... So, according to your information, I'll be always limited to a 30mm diameter knob, due to the faceplate cutout, right?
  
  Quote: 





eraserxiv said:


> It will fit on the alps potentiometer, but it won't sit completely into the hole that is cut out on the faceplate of the M-Stage.


----------



## chicolom

It looks like Ti is actually sending _two _OPA602BPs to me, so I'm going to wind up with a _third extra _OPA602 b/c I ordered one separately.
   
  Does anyone want 1x OPA602BP?


----------



## EraserXIV

Quote: 





putente said:


> I see... So, according to your information, I'll be always limited to a 30mm diameter knob, due to the faceplate cutout, right?


 


  Yes I believe that is the case.


----------



## dogwan

Quote: 





chicolom said:


> Thank you for the info and for the links Mad Max & francisdemarte!
> 
> The ADA4627-1B looks promising.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Hey I just ordered some samples too! Went with the ADA4627-1BRZ's, can't wait to try it out.
   
  So far I have played with the OPA627 in both class A and not. Preferred it non class A.
   
  I also have a LME49720HA currently installed and am enjoying it very much. Much smoother and better low end punch than the OPA627's. As a side note the case doesn't get nearly as warm.
   
  -Dogwan


----------



## chetlanin

Quote: 





dogwan said:


> Hey I just ordered some samples too! Went with the ADA4627-1BRZ's, can't wait to try it out.
> 
> So far I have played with the OPA627 in both class A and not. Preferred it non class A.
> 
> ...


 

 I agree about the class A mod with the OPA627, it sounds much better without. (more relaxed, but in a good way). Returning from time to time to this op amp (in the BP version), I begin to realize how good it really is,  and how stable and easy to work with. Sometimes I think that perhaps it went a little out of fashion because it had become so popular and used by everybody, but (I continue thinking) when it comes to sound one must fight fashion!). Olaf


----------



## Guess?

More info on OPA637AP?


----------



## Xymordos

IMO LME49710HAx2 sounds more relax and warmer and more detailed than OPA627/637smx2 haha. 
   
   
  Side note: ooh I have 637 posts, what a coincidence


----------



## dogwan

Quote: 





xymordos said:


> IMO LME49710HAx2 sounds more relax and warmer and more detailed than OPA627/637smx2 haha.
> 
> 
> Side note: ooh I have 637 posts, what a coincidence


 

 Yes, I agree.
   
  Is working wonders with both the HD600's and a pair of nicely modded T50rp's.


----------



## Guess?

Quote: 





xymordos said:


> Side note: ooh I have 637 posts, what a coincidence


 


  It's not a coincidece, you should try the OPA637 again =).


----------



## Paul Clark

*LME49710 vs OPA627s*
   
http://www.head-fi.org/t/294317/lme49710-vs-opa627s
   
*National opamp inflation*
   
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/132471-national-opamp-inflation.html


----------



## putente

For someone like me, who's electronics knowledge are around zero/null, would these opamp mods be something I should consider or not?


----------



## Guess?

These mods are for everybody who wants their m-stages to perform a bit (or more) better, don't be frightened, the mods are quite easy, it's almost 'plug and play' if you order the right thing.


----------



## putente

Well, apart from opamp's I also read stuff about dual adaptors, class A biasing, etc., and I don't know what I might be getting myself into if I start doing these mods. But still, the fact one can change the way the M-Stage sounds to each one's liking is very nice and appealing... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  Quote: 





guess? said:


> These mods are for everybody who wants their m-stages to perform a bit (or more) better, don't be frightened, the mods are quite easy, it's almost 'plug and play' if you order the right thing.


----------



## Guess?

It's great indeed.


----------



## GreatDane

I just unboxed my M-Stage(w/ factory mod). Still cold and needs to cook for a few days. First impression is that it is surely brighter than my WA3. I ended up using highest gain, although 18 would be enough. I use a digital parametric EQ and bring the gain down 10 dB. so that causes the amp to need more gain. With this in mind, I'm using the M-Stage volume at 2 o'clock w/ T1 for 85dB+ listening.


----------



## putente

Any news on the M-Stage with USB DAC? I'd really like to know if that DAC is any good, because for me that option will cost more $60 (in Europe) than the regular M-Stage...


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





putente said:


> Any news on the M-Stage with USB DAC? I'd really like to know if that DAC is any good, because for me that option will cost more $60 (in Europe) than the regular M-Stage...


 

 Ive got one coming in the mail.  I can compare the M-stage DAC to my E10, and later (after Christmas) an HRT music Streamer II.  I will post back here with my impressions.


----------



## putente

You're heading the exact same way I'm planning to! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  I'm currently using the E10+E9, but my plan was/is to upgrade to an M-Stage and a MSII. But now, that new M-Stage with USB DAC came out, and I don't know which way to go.. I mean, even for me in Europe, the M-Stage with USB DAC will be around $150 cheaper than the M-Stage amp, plus the MSII and a good stereo RCA cable. If the new M-Stage USB DAC could get near the MSII, than I would save some money. But in the end, I think I'll go for the best option, regarding the sound quality in  first place... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  But then again, you'll be able to clear all my doubts! I'll be eagerly waiting for your conclusions... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Quote: 





chicolom said:


> Ive got one coming in the mail.  I can compare the M-stage DAC to my E10, and later (after Christmas) an HRT music Streamer II.  I will post back here with my impressions.


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





putente said:


> You're heading the exact same way I'm planning to!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   

 Lol.  Nice  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  I did research a year ago and picked out the  Q701, M-Stage, and HRT MS II as the the combo I wanted to eventually acquire.  Now, a year later, I've finally been able to acquire the gear piece by piece. 

 I saw the M-stage USB version and decided now was the time to purchase.  Plus it's only + $30 for the DAC in the US, so it was an easy choice since I don't need 2 x RCA inputs.  I still plan on getting the HRT MS II.  If if turns out the M-stage is pretty close in performance that would be sweet, but I have a feeling the MS II will still outperform it. But it's will be nice to have a DAC in the m-stage regardless -makes it an all-in-one box


----------



## Philharmoniker

The DAC incorporated version is only 30 bucks more???
  Wonder what they did to the circuitry....


----------



## SleazyC

My m-stage is waiting for me at home but I won't be able to listen to it for a couple days until I get my RCA cables from Blue Jean. 
   
  I am planning to power it from a v1 uDAC but saw some mention of the Maverick TubeMagic 1 earlier in the thread and was wondering if owners of both could elaborate on how well they pair together. I see the Maverick is putting out a TubeMagic 2 and would be very interested in purchasing it if the m-stage + TubeMagic 1 combo sounded good.


----------



## holylucifer

Its a nice amp for the money.
   
  I am using stock opamp matrix m stage and it goes better then with my ld mk 3 with my selected tubes.
   
  Goes alot better with the transient speed of my t50rp.
   
  As for the k701 is does do the low end justice on the m stage.


----------



## Wysockisauce

So does anyone have the usb version with the dac? How does it sound compared to the standard m-stage? How is the Dac?
   
  I'm interested in this dac/amp for my d5000's.


----------



## chetlanin

Perhaps not for everybody, but the Matrix M and all the Lehmann clones are easy to equip with a bass boost function, see picture. One has to remove the 3 resistors and the dip switch in the original feedback circuit, and substitute with these parts. The shown values are optimised to give AKG K701/702 a more satisfying response in the 3 lowest octaves. In particular if one is listening at moderate levels to mostly neutral acoustical recordings, these cans really need some “bassistance”.

 The 22k resistor can be substituted with a variable resistor of 100k (use two pins on a 100k potentiometer) to increase or diminish the boost. The 44 nF capacitor can be made bigger to lower the cut-off frequency,  & vice versa. I ended up with the given values after a test period, listening mostly to classical recordings.

 The basic values to start with I took from here:
 http://gilmore2.chem.northwestern.edu/projects/opamp_prj.htm
 You will notice that in the similar bass boost diagram it says 22 p(ico Farad) instead of 22 nano for the capacitor: Consequently his circuit would not work at all, except far outside the audible range.

 With the defeat switch activated amplification will be around 10dB, perhaps setting most people prefer with the M anyway.
  Olaf


----------



## leylandi

How to have a synergy hd600


----------



## Guess?

Quote: 





wysockisauce said:


> So does anyone have the usb version with the dac? How does it sound compared to the standard m-stage? How is the Dac?
> 
> I'm interested in this dac/amp for my d5000's.


 

 The AMP part is the same as the old version. One can switch between inputs (USB, RCA) via the front switch. About the USB DAC we're waiting for some reviews from several guys that have already bought the unit.


----------



## SleazyC

So I got around to playing with my Matrix m-stage last night and am loving the sound I am getting out of it. 
   
  I brought it to work with me today and am noticing a buzzing coming from the amp when I have no source plugged into it. I'm at the lowest gain setting and have some UM3x's plugged into it but I don't recall hearing this buzzing last night when I was first playing around with it. 
   
  EDIT -- Apparently its much more pronounced on Input 1 but I can still hear a faint buzz on Input 2. The buzzing noise does not seem to be tied to the volume setting on the amp. Could it be the plug going into the wall? Yesterday I had the amp plugged into a UPS at home but I just tried plugging into a UPS here at work (looks to be of lesser quality) and I am getting the buzzing as well.


----------



## alphaphoenix

I just picked this up from the post office this morning after standing in line for over half hour since signature is required for delivery.  I purchased this directly online from Tam Audio, which I highly recommend.  I ordered on Nov 26, and it was shipped yesterday, Dec 7, which is pretty fast shipping from China via EMS.  The details of my order includes the opamp upgrade to OPA627AP and the usb DAC.  Also, I've owned a m-stage v2 at the beginning of the year and it was sold along with my D7000 for reasons well known here on this site. 
   
  Not surprisingly it was shipped without double boxed, but as you can see, it's well protected.  It comes with the powercord, a manual in Chinese and English, as well as a thank you card in Chinese.  I was pleasantly surprised that the stock opamp was included as I've had other purchases where stock equipment was excluded on customized orders. 
   
  As you can see from the image below, the USB functionality is identified as Input 2, RCA as input 1, and of course the standard RCA output.  The input is controlled by the switch on the amp face.  The amp has been burned in for only 30 minutes and the gain is set to 10db.  My gear setup is the following: Thinkpad X220 notebook-->FLAC files-->Grado RS2, Atrio MG7, and UE triple.fi10.  I'm using a cheap USB cable, but have a so-called "audiophile" grade USB cable, as well as a wider diameter pot knob coming soon.  I'm not going to go into an elaborate detail on how the amp performs as this functionality is well shared even with the chosen opamp. On all three, there's zero hiss and silent background, and most importantly sound really great to my ears, especially with the dynamics (RS2, mg7). 
   
  I think the $30 for the USB functionality is well worth the cost.  My only benchmark was to sound a hell a lot better over the stand alone X220, which it does very nicely.  Keep in my mind, my intended application doesn't require a portable DAC/amp as I use my Samsung Galaxy S /w Voodoo for my on the go setup.  Two inputs with one being USB and the other connected to a SACD works well for my setup needs.  I'm happy with my purchase. 
   
  Unless someone else beats me to it, I'll crack open the chassis for display, but it'll be a few weeks at best before that happens.


----------



## EraserXIV

You'll be happy with the knob upgrade 
  Yes, sound is important, but functionality and ease of use is just as important as well


----------



## Digital-Pride

A question for all the M-stagers out there.  How well does it pair with the HD650?  I recent acquired a pair and I'm working on formulating a plan of upgrades over my current Fiio E7/E9 setup.  From everything I've read, the M-stage looks promising.  My only concern is the HD650 sounding too bass heavy and warm through the M-stage.  Any expertise from you guys(and gals) would be greatly appreciated.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Alpaphoenix, those are some nice pictures you've got there!


----------



## GreatDane

With my new M-Stage I'm getting a static/scratchy sound that comes and goes and varies in loudness. Also while trying to figure out what's going on, while removing the top of the case I notice that if I tap on the case it makes an audible mid frequency thud into my monitors.
   
  Anyone have a clue?


----------



## chetlanin

Quote: 





greatdane said:


> With my new M-Stage I'm getting a static/scratchy sound that comes and goes and varies in loudness. Also while trying to figure out what's going on, while removing the top of the case I notice that if I tap on the case it makes an audible mid frequency thud into my monitors.
> 
> Anyone have a clue?


 
   
  Sounds strange. Can it be caused by bad grounding/contact somewhere? Begin with tightening the nut on the bolt through the transformer, several people (including me) have resolved problems by doing that. Olaf


----------



## GreatDane

Quote: 





chetlanin said:


> Sounds strange. Can it be caused by bad grounding/contact somewhere? Begin with tightening the nut on the bolt through the transformer, several people (including me) have resolved problems by doing that. Olaf


 

 Thanks. I did read about checking the bolt for the transformer. The bolt is very tight so that doesn't seem to be the problem. A grounding issue did cross my mind but I wouldn't know how to figure that out...besides trying a new power cable??
   
  I decided to leave the upper half of the case off as that seems to help. Tomorrow I'll try a new power cord and put the case back on.


----------



## chetlanin

Quote: 





sleazyc said:


> So I got around to playing with my Matrix m-stage last night and am loving the sound I am getting out of it.
> 
> I brought it to work with me today and am noticing a buzzing coming from the amp when I have no source plugged into it. I'm at the lowest gain setting and have some UM3x's plugged into it but I don't recall hearing this buzzing last night when I was first playing around with it.
> 
> EDIT -- Apparently its much more pronounced on Input 1 but I can still hear a faint buzz on Input 2. The buzzing noise does not seem to be tied to the volume setting on the amp. Could it be the plug going into the wall? Yesterday I had the amp plugged into a UPS at home but I just tried plugging into a UPS here at work (looks to be of lesser quality) and I am getting the buzzing as well.


 

 If you are able to exclude causes outside the amp: Buzz is often caused/induced by oscillation in high frequency range. If so, it will probably change i character if you move your finger over the components around the op amp (touch ground with another finger to begin with). Theoretically it may come from the regulator chips also, but more unlikely. Just my initial thoughts. Olaf


----------



## dogwan

Received my sample ADA4627-1BRZ's today from Analog Devices. Wow that was fast shipping for freebies. I haven't even had time to order the adapter from BrownDog yet. Looking forward to trying these OpAmps out and comparing to the LME49720HA I'm currently in love with.
   
  -Dogwan


----------



## SleazyC

Quote: 





chetlanin said:


> If you are able to exclude causes outside the amp: Buzz is often caused/induced by oscillation in high frequency range. If so, it will probably change i character if you move your finger over the components around the op amp (touch ground with another finger to begin with). Theoretically it may come from the regulator chips also, but more unlikely. Just my initial thoughts. Olaf


 

 Thanks for the suggestion. I probably won't have time to play around with the amp until Sunday but I will try to tighten the screw on the bottom as well as popping it open and seeing if I can pinpoint where the buzzing could be coming from. Regarding grounding, could I possibly use an antistatic wristrap I have used for putting together computers by clipping it to metal on the case of the amp?


----------



## chetlanin

Quote: 





sleazyc said:


> Thanks for the suggestion. I probably won't have time to play around with the amp until Sunday but I will try to tighten the screw on the bottom as well as popping it open and seeing if I can pinpoint where the buzzing could be coming from. Regarding grounding, could I possibly use an antistatic wristrap I have used for putting together computers by clipping it to metal on the case of the amp?


 


  Good idea!


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





sleazyc said:


> So I got around to playing with my Matrix m-stage last night and am loving the sound I am getting out of it.
> 
> I brought it to work with me today and am noticing a buzzing coming from the amp when I have no source plugged into it. I'm at the lowest gain setting and have some UM3x's plugged into it but I don't recall hearing this buzzing last night when I was first playing around with it.
> 
> EDIT -- Apparently its much more pronounced on Input 1 but I can still hear a faint buzz on Input 2. The buzzing noise does not seem to be tied to the volume setting on the amp. Could it be the plug going into the wall? Yesterday I had the amp plugged into a UPS at home but I just tried plugging into a UPS here at work (looks to be of lesser quality) and I am getting the buzzing as well.


 


 Have tried plugging it straight into the wall at work, i.e. not plugging into the UPS?
  Could the Matrix be sitting on another piece of equipment with a large transformer in it? This could cause the hum.
  Does it still hum with a source connected to it?


----------



## PelPix

Poke a hole in a piece of note card and put it around the headphone plug to shield current that may be accidentally flowing into the case from reaching the headphones.
  Solved the problem completely for me.  Turns out current was going into the case for some reason and entering the headphones through the metal rim of the plug.


----------



## HaVoC-28

Quote: 





digital-pride said:


> A question for all the M-stagers out there.  How well does it pair with the HD650?  I recent acquired a pair and I'm working on formulating a plan of upgrades over my current Fiio E7/E9 setup.  From everything I've read, the M-stage looks promising.  My only concern is the HD650 sounding too bass heavy and warm through the M-stage.  Any expertise from you guys(and gals) would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


  M-Stage and HD650 works very well together , and if you find that HD650 could be a bit too warm or bass heavy just pick the right opamp ^^ . (something like AD797BRZ )


----------



## EraserXIV

I'm really liking the sound of my HD650 through the M-Stage, and I definitely don't feel like it's too dark. If anything, I actually wouldn't mind a little more bass quantity and slam. I am using the LME49720HA which is more balanced and cleaner than the stock opamp. I've been meaning to check out the OPA627, but haven't gotten around to it, especially since it's hard to discern between genuines and fakes.
   
  Any other suggestions for opamps?


----------



## Mad Max

You are better off installing bass boost than opamp-rolling as far as increased bass.


----------



## SleazyC

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Have tried plugging it straight into the wall at work, i.e. not plugging into the UPS?
> Could the Matrix be sitting on another piece of equipment with a large transformer in it? This could cause the hum.
> Does it still hum with a source connected to it?


 
   
  I have tried plugging the amp straight into the wall and get the same humming. The amp still hums with a source connected as well.
   
  As for near anything with a large transformer in it, it is surrounded by several pieces of computer equipment (2x monitors + a desktop to its left and my laptop to the right as well as a phone + wireless mouse charger near it) and I suppose those could be causing some kind of interference. At home I had the amp near my sole monitor but it was a couple feet away from my laptop and my desktop. 
  
  Quote: 





pelpix said:


> Poke a hole in a piece of note card and put it around the headphone plug to shield current that may be accidentally flowing into the case from reaching the headphones.
> Solved the problem completely for me.  Turns out current was going into the case for some reason and entering the headphones through the metal rim of the plug.


 
   
  Will try this out, thanks for the suggestion.


----------



## HydronQc

Quote: 





hydronqc said:


> I have a question for the New Matrix M-Stage USB. Is the dac working when using the RCA input or its only working when the usb input is used.
> Thanks


 

 ? for those who received the new m-stage


----------



## GreatDane

Quote: 





mad max said:


> You are better off installing bass boost than opamp-rolling as far as increased bass.


 


  I'm not into opamp rolling but a good EQ (hopefully digital) can work wonders. I've had an Aphex 204 for a few years and it works better than digital parametric for adding "slam" and overall improvement in bass excitement.I combine EQ and the 204 . WIth the 204 my T1 can become a bass monster. ARRGGHH!


----------



## alphaphoenix

Quote: 





hydronqc said:


> I have a question for the New Matrix M-Stage USB. Is the dac working when using the RCA input or its only working when the usb input is used.
> Thanks


 
   
  DAC is working only when the USB input is used.  The input switch on the front switches between the two inputs (RCA and USB).  I had my CD transport connected at the same time playing as well as the USB and you can only listen to one or the other.  If your question is regarding the output, I can't answer that. 
   
  Also, the DAC can play up to 24bit/96khz for those of interest.


----------



## HydronQc

thanks I will place my order on monday


----------



## ZenErik

I've got the Matrix M-Stage amp + USB DAC coming my way very soon thanks to alphaphoenix.  Can't wait!    Finally something that's not an E10 to power my Q701s.

 Soon I will also be adding Ultrasone Pro 900s to the finally as well. Hope they match up well with the M-Stage.


----------



## chicolom

Wow.  Alphaphoenix, you sold your M-stage already?!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Why?


----------



## alphaphoenix

Wife won't buy me custom IEM for Xmas and complains she can hear my music with my Grado chained to the amp.  Such as life.


----------



## Tribbs

Divorce!


----------



## GamerOne

Been planning on getting an M-stage, but this new version with the USB DAC seems interesting. Its the same amp only with a built-in DAC if I understand it correctly? How good is the DAC? Would it be on par with the DAC on an Essence ST? I currently use an Essence ST, but maybe it would be worth replacing it with this new M-stage?  Should also mention that I'm using a pair of K701's


----------



## ZenErik

I'll let you know my impressions, but the only DACs I have ever owned are an Oritek and the FiiO E10.


----------



## ZenErik

Does the M-Stage pair well with the Beyerdynamic DT990 600ohm? I am now fairly certain that that is the 2nd pair of headphones I will get. That is, if the M-Stage is powerful enough to drive them well. Thanks ahead of time for your input!


----------



## BmWr75

Quote: 





zenerik said:


> Does the M-Stage pair well with the Beyerdynamic DT990 600ohm? I am now fairly certain that that is the 2nd pair of headphones I will get. That is, if the M-Stage is powerful enough to drive them well. Thanks ahead of time for your input!


 

 Yes, the M-stage pairs well with any Beyer 600 ohm can.  I speak from experience cause I own the 770/880/990, all 600 ohm.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





bmwr75 said:


> Yes, the M-stage pairs well with any Beyer 600 ohm can.  I speak from experience cause I own the 770/880/990, all 600 ohm.


 


  I can second that................well, just a bit.   My Stage works well with my 600 ohm DT880, more than enough drive, volume, control.
   
  BTW....why do you have the 770, 880 & 990s?
  Just curious, no judgement....... you lucky person!


----------



## ZenErik

You two didn't do much to sell me, but you did anyway. DT990 600ohm ordered! Can't wait to see how they compare to the Q701s. Should have them and the M-Stage on Wednesday or Thursday.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





zenerik said:


> You two didn't do much to sell me, but you did anyway. DT990 600ohm ordered! Can't wait to see how they compare to the Q701s. Should have them and the M-Stage on Wednesday or Thursday.


 

 Q701s are awesome!
  Don't sell them!


----------



## ZenErik

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Q701s are awesome!
> Don't sell them!


 

 They are definitely awesome. Hopefully I will be keeping both the Q701 and DT990 600 ohm. I was just looking for something a little more "fun" and bass heavy for certain styles of music. DT990 seems to get the nod as the open can with the heaviest bass. The Ultrasone Pro 2900 may be stiff competition for the DT990, but it is hard to find much info on them comparing them to the DT990.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





zenerik said:


> They are definitely awesome. Hopefully I will be keeping both the Q701 and DT990 600 ohm. I was just looking for something a little more "fun" and bass heavy for certain styles of music. DT990 seems to get the nod as the open can with the heaviest bass. The Ultrasone Pro 2900 may be stiff competition for the DT990, but it is hard to find much info on them comparing them to the DT990.


 

 Yep, I had some trouble deciding between DT880 & 990s!
  Neutral or fun,  I went with neutral.


----------



## SleazyC

Anyone ever noticed any distortion when listening to music via the M-stage and low impedance headphones? I seem to be getting some distortion listening to certain kinds of music when using my UM3x's while on the lowest gain settings. Wondering if these headphones are too sensitive or if I should be concerned that this is an issue with my amp.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





sleazyc said:


> Anyone ever noticed any distortion when listening to music via the M-stage and low impedance headphones? I seem to be getting some distortion listening to certain kinds of music when using my UM3x's while on the lowest gain settings. Wondering if these headphones are too sensitive or if I should be concerned that this is an issue with my amp.


 

 I have never noticed any distortion from the amp when using AKG K70x series.
  I've noticed A LOT of distortion from a lot of recordings, though!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Anyway, the Westones have approx. the same impedance as AKG K70x, and the Matrix has no trouble driving the AKG.......so it must be something else.
  The Westones are far more efficient than the K701s so a gain setting of 10 dB makes sense.
  When you look at the efficiency of the Westones the M Stage should have any problem driving them.
  Just for fun, try a higher gain setting, you should have to turn the volume down to maybe 9 o'clock to use them, but you never know until to try it out.  
   
  The M Stage can output a lot of current and a lot of voltage so it should be able to drive almost any headphone.
  It also has a low output impedance so should have any trouble with a low impedance or high impedance 'phone.
  It can even drive my 2,000 ohm Sennheisers! No, that's not a typo.
   
  YMMV


----------



## ETAHL

Quote: 





sleazyc said:


> Anyone ever noticed any distortion when listening to music via the M-stage and low impedance headphones? I seem to be getting some distortion listening to certain kinds of music when using my UM3x's while on the lowest gain settings. Wondering if these headphones are too sensitive or if I should be concerned that this is an issue with my amp.


 


  You will be appalled at the amount of compression and clipping in many of today's popular recordings. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  With better phones and systems you can clearly hear these issues.
  Just open the offending audio files in Audacity or any audio editing program and you will see the problems in their waveforms.


----------



## ZenErik

You mean the rectangle bar that almost never dips?


----------



## francisdemarte

Quote: 





etahl said:


> You will be appalled and the amount of compression and clipping in many of today's popular recordings.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  I hope you don't mean 0db gain? Keep in mind that certain op amp's require a minimum amount of gain to work correctly. This maybe the cause of the distortion you hear.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





francisdemarte said:


> I hope you don't mean 0db gain? Keep in mind that certain op amp's require a minimum amount of gain to work correctly. This maybe the cause of the distortion you hear.


 

 The stock op amp should be stable and OK to use at 0 dB gain.
  I  have a Class A modded OPA627 in mine. Works fine at 0 dB gain.
   
  Quote: 





sleazyc said:


> Anyone ever noticed any distortion when listening to music via the M-stage and low impedance headphones? I seem to be getting some distortion listening to certain kinds of music when using my UM3x's while on the lowest gain settings. Wondering if these headphones are too sensitive or if I should be concerned that this is an issue with my amp.


 
  I tried  out my M Stage with my Shure SE210 'phones at 0 dB gain.............they sounded Ok...............for Shure SE210s!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  One of these days I should get something better.


----------



## SleazyC

Quote: 





chris j said:


> I have never noticed any distortion from the amp when using AKG K70x series.
> I've noticed A LOT of distortion from a lot of recordings, though!
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Thanks for the suggestion, I'll give them a shot with the 10 dB gain. I'll also look at the waveform of the songs to maybe spot if the mastering of the song is causing the issues.
  
  Quote: 





etahl said:


> You will be appalled at the amount of compression and clipping in many of today's popular recordings.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Will do!
  
  Quote: 





francisdemarte said:


> I hope you don't mean 0db gain? Keep in mind that certain op amp's require a minimum amount of gain to work correctly. This maybe the cause of the distortion you hear.


 
   
  I am on 0db gain right now and have the Class A modded OPA627 in my M-stage. Would I want to bump the gain up to a specific number here?
  
  I have my volume dial at about the 11-12 o'clock setting and a lot of songs sound just fine but I do get some distortion/clipping that I don't hear un-amp'd or just coming out of my uDAC.


----------



## Xymordos

The original Lehman I don't think was designed for such low impedance IEMs...I remember reading somewhere on the forums about recommended not to use IEMs on them


----------



## Tribbs

After reviewing various amps for my 32Ω impedance Grado I opted for Dr. Kevin Gilmore designed DynaLo
   
http://www.head-fi.org/t/461997/lost-link-to-a-dynalo-amp/


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





xymordos said:


> The original Lehman I don't think was designed for such low impedance IEMs...I remember reading somewhere on the forums about recommended not to use IEMs on them


 


 Hmmmmmmmmmmm, why not? I just don't understand???
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  I guess you are talking about the Lehmann Black Cube Linear?
  I don't see why it wouldn't be able to drive a low impdeance IEM.


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





tribbs said:


> After reviewing various amps for my 32Ω impedance Grado I opted for Dr. Kevin Gilmore designed DynaLo
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/461997/lost-link-to-a-dynalo-amp/


 

 The combo is awesome, I would know.


----------



## BmWr75

Installed this Goldpoint knob on the M-stage today.  Think it looks pretty nice.  Fits perfectly.  Available on eBay from this seller (no affiliation other than a happy customer).


----------



## alphaphoenix

Nice.  And it's not originating shipment from China (usually long wait).


----------



## BmWr75

Quote: 





alphaphoenix said:


> Nice.  And it's not originating shipment from China (usually long wait).


 

 Yep, local to the U.S. seller.  Shipped the knob very fast.  Forgot to mention, it has a good feel too, much easier to turn than the stock knob.


----------



## Riverback

Its because of the M-stage's 5 Ohm output impedance. It doesn't mean that it can't drive low impedance headphones. It just means that gain might change depending on the load


----------



## unixdog

Can someone please chime in regarding the DT990-600 Ohm / M-Stage (USB model) combination?  How well do they pair up?  I'm currently using an ATH-M50 / E10 combo but I'm looking to upgrade my equipment after the holidays.  Is the M-Stage more than adequate for driving these HPs?  For those of you that have the USB M-Stage, how do you think it compares versus running a dedicated DAC such as the HRT Streamer II, etc.?  Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
   
  Thanks,
  - Bill


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





unixdog said:


> Can someone please chime in regarding the DT990-600 Ohm / M-Stage (USB model) combination?  How well do they pair up?  I'm currently using an ATH-M50 / E10 combo but I'm looking to upgrade my equipment after the holidays.  Is the M-Stage more than adequate for driving these HPs?  For those of you that have the USB M-Stage, how do you think it compares versus running a dedicated DAC such as the HRT Streamer II, etc.?  Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> Thanks,
> - Bill


 


  http://www.head-fi.org/t/475618/matrix-m-stage-amp-review-simple-cheap-and-excellent/2190#post_7965475
   
  I will compare the M-stage DAC to the HRT MS II after christmas.  Currently I have neither, but I will have both soon.


----------



## unixdog

Quote: 





chicolom said:


> http://www.head-fi.org/t/475618/matrix-m-stage-amp-review-simple-cheap-and-excellent/2190#post_7965475
> 
> I will compare the M-stage DAC to the HRT MS II after christmas.  Currently I have neither, but I will have both soon.


 


  Thanks for the quick reply and link.  Are you getting the M-Stage USB model?  Also, are you purchasing it from TamAudio?  I've never done business with TamAudio and I was curious if they're considered a trusted source.  Best of luck.


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





unixdog said:


> Thanks for the quick reply and link.  Are you getting the M-Stage USB model?  Also, are you purchasing it from TamAudio?  I've never done business with TamAudio and I was curious if they're considered a trusted source.  Best of luck.


 


 Ya.  I ordered the USB version from Tamaudio.  I'm pretty sure that's the trusted source for matrix products here on Head-fi.  Although I've read mixed reports on the quality/legitimacy of the extra opamps he sells.
   
  If you email Tamaudio, they are also quick to respond which is good.


----------



## unixdog

Quote: 





chicolom said:


> Ya.  I ordered the USB version from Tamaudio.  I'm pretty sure that's the trusted source for matrix products here on Head-fi.  Although I've read mixed reports on the quality/legitimacy of the extra opamps he sells.
> 
> If you email Tamaudio, they are also quick to respond which is good.


 


  Thanks.  I actually sent them an email a couple of days ago with some questions regarding the USB versus non-USB model but I've yet to hear back from them.  I'm glad to hear that they're a trusted source though.  I'd really be interested in hearing your thoughts regarding SQ using the HRT DAC versus the Matrix built-in DAC.  If there's a significant improvement with using the dedicated DAC, I'll probably just pull the trigger on both as you plan to do.  Thanks again for your response.


----------



## SleazyC

I received my Audinst HUD-MX1 yesterday and after pairing it with my M-stage I am noticing less distortion/clipping on some of the songs that I was hearing it in previously. I guess I can chalk this up to the previous uDAC I had feeding it. I also testing the amp at home to see if I hear the humming noise I noticed at work and it is still there. Guess I'm going to have to crack open the amp and see if I can pinpoint where the humming is originating.
   
  I also tried popping the gain up to 10db and to my untrained ears it sounded better than at 0db but I got some very noticeable hissing at just about all volume levels. I'm going to have to play with it a bit more to see if the (perceived) improvements outweigh the hiss.


----------



## Tribbs

Quote:


tribbs said:


> After reviewing various amps for my 32Ω impedance Grado I opted for Dr. Kevin Gilmore designed DynaLo
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/461997/lost-link-to-a-dynalo-amp/


 
   
  Quote:


mad max said:


> The combo is awesome, I would know.


 
  I'm very glad to hear that Max! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  The M-Stage was on my short list until I remembered the DynaLo.  I had read about it years ago. I still had the link saved but I had forgotten about it - Out of site, out of mind.  It seems that if there are no tubes or opamps to roll, or other _improvements_ to perform an amp gets little attention.  Strange as I'd rather spend my time listening (or building).
   
  Cheers!
  ________________________________________________________________________________________________
  Addendum:
   
Originally Posted by Chris J
   
_An interesting article on the effect of headphone output impedance on the apparent frequency response of a headphone:_
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/blog/2011/11/14/output-impedance-show-and-tell?page=0,0
   
  Grado 325is impedance graph
=390]http://graphs.headphone.com/graphCompare.php?graphType=0&graphID[]=390


----------



## cowincanada

Quote: 





sleazyc said:


> I received my Audinst HUD-MX1 yesterday and after pairing it with my M-stage I am noticing less distortion/clipping on some of the songs that I was hearing it in previously. I guess I can chalk this up to the previous uDAC I had feeding it. I also testing the amp at home to see if I hear the humming noise I noticed at work and it is still there. Guess I'm going to have to crack open the amp and see if I can pinpoint where the humming is originating.
> 
> I also tried popping the gain up to 10db and to my untrained ears it sounded better than at 0db but I got some very noticeable hissing at just about all volume levels. I'm going to have to play with it a bit more to see if the (perceived) improvements outweigh the hiss.


 

 if you plug your HP into the MX1 (using it as amp), do you hear the humming noise as well? I would suggest to play around with the position of your HP plug into the m-stage. I found out mine was plugged in too tight
  that current goes into the HP. Loosen it a bit and the humming is gone.


----------



## SleazyC

Quote: 





cowincanada said:


> if you plug your HP into the MX1 (using it as amp), do you hear the humming noise as well? I would suggest to play around with the position of your HP plug into the m-stage. I found out mine was plugged in too tight
> that current goes into the HP. Loosen it a bit and the humming is gone.


 
   
  Plugging directly into the MX1 does not produce a humming noise. I get the humming without any source connected the to the M-stage so I do believe that it is an issue with the amp.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





riverback said:


> Its because of the M-stage's 5 Ohm output impedance. It doesn't mean that it can't drive low impedance headphones. It just means that gain might change depending on the load


 

 Hey there,  not too sure if I'm following that, I think you mean that a high output impedance amp can mess up the gain because you are loosing voltage across the amp's high output impedance? A low output impedance amp shouldn't interfere with the signal going to a low or a hi impedance can.
  
  Quote: 





unixdog said:


> Can someone please chime in regarding the DT990-600 Ohm / M-Stage (USB model) combination?  How well do they pair up?  I'm currently using an ATH-M50 / E10 combo but I'm looking to upgrade my equipment after the holidays.  Is the M-Stage more than adequate for driving these HPs?  For those of you that have the USB M-Stage, how do you think it compares versus running a dedicated DAC such as the HRT Streamer II, etc.?  Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> Thanks,
> - Bill


 

 I can only tell you that DT880/600 work very well with the M Stage, set gain to 18 dB and you have more than enough volume.
  The M can even drive my very, very old 2,000 ohm Senn HD 424s.
  I don't have any experience with the USB version.


----------



## chicolom

Just got my USB M-stage.  Doing some listening right now on the stock opamp and going back and forth with the E10 DAC/M-Stage DAC.  _Very early_ impressions are that M-stage is certainly holding it's own compared to the E10.  I can't pick a winner yet, but Its still very early.  Will keep listening.....


----------



## Tribbs

Quote: 





sleazyc said:


> Anyone ever noticed any distortion when listening to music via the M-stage and low impedance headphones? I seem to be getting some distortion listening to certain kinds of music when using my UM3x's while on the lowest gain settings. Wondering if these headphones are too sensitive or if I should be concerned that this is an issue with my amp.


 

 Food for thought...
   
Originally Posted by Chris J
_An interesting article on the effect of headphone output impedance on the apparent frequency response of a headphone:_
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/blog/2011/11/14/output-impedance-show-and-tell?page=0,0
   
  Westone UM3X impedance graph (Graph #05)
=390]http://graphs.headphone.com/graphCompare.php?graphType=0&graphID[]=390
   
  Matrix M-stage output impedance = 5 Z (ohms)
http://www.head-fi.org/t/475618/matrix-m-stage-amp-review-simple-cheap-and-excellent/2220#post_7972495


----------



## chicolom

Is this the correct way to install OPA602BP on a dual DIP adapter?  I lined up the dots the same way as the original OPA2134 - on the top left.  Does it matter which end of the 2x DIP adapter they're on?  I noticed there's a square in the top left of the adapter.  I lined up the top left dots on the opamps with the top left square, same as combining the 2 pics below, but I don't know if that matters.
 <  +  >  
   
   
  Also, I noticed there's an OPA2134 on the USB module as well...


----------



## genclaymore

You need to put the dip-8 sockets on the adapter first then you can slot in two single channel dip-8 op-amps on it.


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





genclaymore said:


> You need to put the dip-8 sockets on the adapter first then you can slot in two single channel dip-8 op-amps on it.


 


  Sorry, I already have the dip adapters.  I just wanted to know if there was a right/wrong way to put the opamps in the dip sockets (like upside down).
   
  I can see in the pic the adapter has a yellow opamp outline with a little dip/indentation in the top middle, so I assumed that lined up with the "top" of the opamp where the dot and indentation are.


----------



## Mad Max

That's right, line up all the little notches or kiss your headphones bye-bye.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  And you will probably damage the amp a bit, too.
   
  All printed or physical notches must face towards the M-Stage's inputs.  If in doubt, check again.  The adapter will have some indicator of which side should line up with the notch on the amp's socket.


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





mad max said:


> That's right, line up all the little notches or kiss your headphones bye-bye.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

  
  LOL!  yikes, I got lucky then.  Before I even posted about it I had already installed it and fired up the m-stage.  I did it the way I showed above, and it must be right because I'm listening to it right now 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  I would take it apart right now and check for more indicators on the adapter (all I saw were the squares in the corner), but my m-stage is warm as I've been listening for a few hours - so I'll do it later after it's cool again.
   
   
  Anything else I should know that can damage the amp/headphones?  I know messing with the Dip switches while its running is a no-no...I assume if you power it on with the dip switches incorrectly set something bad could happen.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





chicolom said:


> Anything else I should know that can damage the amp/headphones?  I know messing with the Dip switches while its running is a no-no...I assume if you power it on with the dip switches incorrectly set something bad could happen.


 

 Turn the volume down before changing gain (especially when going from 0 to 20 dB!) to make sure you don't get too much volume and blow your ears out!


----------



## ZenErik

M-Stage with USB DAC will be here today. It'll help me determine whether to keep both the Q701 and DT990/600 or return one. So far I am more satisfied with the Q701 but the bass on the DT990 is lovely.

I'm curious about whether chicolom will find more differences compared to the FiiO E10 with more listening. I go in expecting an upgrade. Not a side step. Hope I am right.

Edit: My M-Stage is right next to me right now, but I'm at work and thus can't make use of it for another 8 - 9 hours. :'(


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





zenerik said:


> M-Stage with USB DAC will be here today. It'll help me determine whether to keep both the Q701 and DT990/600 or return one. So far I am more satisfied with the Q701 but the bass on the DT990 is lovely.
> I'm curious about whether chicolom will find more differences compared to the FiiO E10 with more listening. I go in expecting an upgrade. Not a side step. Hope I am right.
> Edit: My M-Stage is right next to me right now, but I'm at work and thus can't make use of it for another 8 - 9 hours. :'(


 

  
  Having the M next to you must be torture..............

 I bet you will keep both your 'phones!
  I have a pair of Q701 and DT880/600 and would not want to give up either 'phone.
  DT990s are great too.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  I would be happy with either DT990 or DT880.
  I suspect you will prefer the DT990 thru the M Stage..................but that is only my opinion.


----------



## unixdog

Just pulled the trigger on an m-stage order. (USB Model)  Couldn't wait until after the holidays.  Wife is going to kill me. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  Any idea how long it takes for shipment from TamAudio to the US East Coast?  Tnx.


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





zenerik said:


> I'm curious about whether chicolom will find more differences compared to the FiiO E10 with more listening. I go in expecting an upgrade. Not a side step. Hope I am right.
> Edit: My M-Stage is right next to me right now, but I'm at work and thus can't make use of it for another 8 - 9 hours. :'(


 
   
  In my earlier post I was just referring to the DAC comparison.  The amp section is obviously an upgrade on m-stage, especially after swapping opamps.  The M-stage amp pulls more detail/resolution than the FiiO which sounds a little muddier and closed in comparison.  Soundstage and seperation are also better on the M-stage. 
   
  The DACs are closer.  The M-stage dac seems to have slighly stronger and more foward mids, and possibly slightly more bass impact, whereas the FiiO E10 has a little more soundstage depth and width.  Detail and separation are about the same. 
   
  Quote: 





unixdog said:


> Just pulled the trigger on an m-stage order. (USB Model)  Couldn't wait until after the holidays.  Wife is going to kill me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 It took mine 15 days to get here from when I ordered it online and when it got delivered.  I ordered on Nov 30th, it shipped Dec 6th and was deliverd the 15th..  So 10 days in transit (8 business days).


----------



## unixdog

Thanks Chicolom.  I'm now curious as to how the m-stage DAC compares against the HRT Streamer II.
  Anyhow, off to the UPS store to return my e7/e10.  I need to recoup some money from the m-stage
  purchase.


----------



## ZenErik

Quote: 





chicolom said:


> In my earlier post I was just referring to the DAC comparison.  The amp section is obviously an upgrade on m-stage, especially after swapping opamps.  The M-stage amp pulls more detail/resolution than the FiiO which sounds a little muddier and closed in comparison.  Soundstage and seperation are also better on the M-stage.
> 
> The DACs are closer.  The M-stage dac seems to have slighly stronger and more foward mids, and possibly slightly more bass impact, whereas the FiiO E10 has a little more soundstage depth and width.  Detail and separation are about the same.
> 
> ...


 


  Thank you for the input. I wonder how your OPA602BP's compare to the OPA627AP's in mine. 
   
  BTW, where can I find info on what the bottom switches do? Thanks!


----------



## Guess?

It's obvious the DAC isn't great, but in fact it's a perfect fit for the m-stage, for a minimal price increase you get a combo, whereas the amp part isn't compromised...


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





zenerik said:


> Thank you for the input. I wonder how your OPA602BP's compare to the OPA627AP's in mine.
> 
> BTW, where can I find info on what the bottom switches do? Thanks!


 

 The bottom DIP switches change the gain.  It says on the sticker on the bottom which positions do what, also in the manual.  You set both switches to the same position (x2) while the amp is off.  It's probably fine to leave it at 10db most of the time.
   


  Quote: 





guess? said:


> It's obvious the DAC isn't great, but in fact it's a perfect fit for the m-stage, for a minimal price increase you get a combo, whereas the amp part isn't compromised...


 


  Ya that was my reasoning.  It fits perfectly in that space, and its only $30.


----------



## ZenErik

Thanks.
   
  Is there noise coming from Coltrane's mic during the bass solo on "Part 3: Pursuance / Part 4: Psalm" (album: A Love Supreme). I never noticed it before, but now it's right out there and annoying. Haha. Just want to make sure it's not my M-Stage or Q701s causing that sound.


----------



## Tribbs

Quote: 





zenerik said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Is there noise coming from Coltrane's mic during the bass solo on "Part 3: Pursuance / Part 4: Psalm" (album: A Love Supreme). I never noticed it before, but now it's right out there and annoying. Haha. Just want to make sure it's not my M-Stage or Q701s causing that sound.


 

 I just listened to my SACD of A Love Supreme.  At 7'50" to the end of "Part 3: Pursuance" is Jimmy Garrison's bass solo.
  I listened through speakers and again through my Little Dot I+ into Grado 325i.
   
  I did not sense any distortion.  What I did hear during the bass solo is very audible tape hiss from this 1964 recording.


----------



## ZenErik

Quote: 





tribbs said:


> I just listened to my SACD of A Love Supreme.  At 7'50" to the end of "Part 3: Pursuance" is Jimmy Garrison's bass solo.
> I listened through speakers and again through my Little Dot I+ into Grado 325i.
> 
> I did not sense any distortion.  What I did hear during the bass solo is very audible tape hiss from this 1964 recording.


 


  Interesting. Hope it's not my headphones/amp. To me it sounded like it was distinctly coming from Coltrane's mic still being on during the bass solo. And yes there is also very audible hiss.
   
  Edit: Not the headphones or amp. I just tested via headphone out on my laptop with Etymotic IEMs. I can still hear the distortion on the SACD of A Love Supreme. Really distracting. You'll hear it on the left side only out of what appears to be Coltrane's mic.


----------



## ZenErik

I also noticed it during Norah Jones' "Don't Know Why", and there is a thread on here about it. So maybe I'm not crazy. They mentioned not noticing it until they used K701s. Makes sense.


----------



## Tribbs

OK, I've just listened to Norah Jones' _Don't Know Why _on her _Come Away With Me _SACD just the same as Coltrane.
  I may sense a teeny tiny bit of distortion on Norah's vocal peaks but that's on the recording. Nothing else.
   
  Can you tell me precisely at what times (min'sec") on Coltrane's and Norah's tracks you are hearing this distortion?
  Is it low frequency bass only or...?


----------



## ZenErik

Quote: 





tribbs said:


> OK, I've just listened to Norah Jones' _Don't Know Why _on her _Come Away With Me _SACD just the same as Coltrane.
> I may sense a teeny tiny bit of distortion on Norah's vocal peaks but that's on the recording. Nothing else.
> 
> Can you tell me precisely at what times (min'sec") on Coltrane's and Norah's tracks you are hearing this distortion?
> Is it low frequency bass only or...?


 


http://www.head-fi.org/t/174030/norah-jones-come-away-with-me-cd-distortion-during-dont-know-why
   
  Some of the vocals. Mainly the background vocals.
   
  On Coltrane it's at various points from Coltrane's mic during the bass solo. It's probably there throughout the whole album, but it's most noticeable during a bass solo. It's not low bass frequency at all. Just poor recording. I'm at work so I can't specify specific times. But I am certain that it is the recording and not both my M-Stage/Q701 combo and laptop/Etymotic IEM combo.


----------



## Tribbs

Are you hearing this distortion when playing ripped files or directly from a SACD transport?
  I don't know of any laptops that can play the DSD layer of SACDs.
   
  What are you using to play _A Love Supreme_ and _Come Away With Me_ SACDs?


----------



## ZenErik

Quote: 





tribbs said:


> Are you hearing this distortion when playing ripped files or directly from a SACD transport?
> I don't know of any laptops that can play the DSD layer of SACDs.
> 
> What are you using to play _A Love Supreme_ and _Come Away With Me_ SACDs?


 


  Rips from SACD. If you read the thread you'll also find out that the stereo SACD portion of the Norah Jones album is just an upscale from the 16bit 44khz CD master.
   
  I could play them on my Oppo BDP-83, but I haven't tried that yet. And I'm still at work. 

 I do expect that maybe some people just will not notice it. But once you know it's there it sticks out like a sore thumb every time.


----------



## Tribbs

I don't have or listen to ripped files. So, if you get a chance to listen to the SACD layer on your OPPO and point out the precise moments on these two SACD tracks that you hear distortion I would be very interested to check myself.  And probably forever regret it


----------



## kyoshiro

and 151 pages later, I have ordered myself a matrix m-stage with class A bias mod from Tam. This supposibly the new and improved version as well.


----------



## NumLock

Why are some $270 and some $200?


----------



## kyoshiro

Quote: 





numlock said:


> Why are some $270 and some $200?


 


  higher price are modded, lower price are prob standard 
  some have free shipping, some have paid shipping 
  some are listed in pounds some are in usd


----------



## NumLock

Anyone use the Matrix with Grados?


----------



## Mad Max

Yes, the Matrix does very, very well with Grados.
  You can find posts on this by clicking "Search this Thread" near the top of the page.


----------



## NumLock

Quote: 





mad max said:


> Yes, the Matrix does very, very well with Grados.
> You can find posts on this by clicking "Search this Thread" near the top of the page.


 


  wow, I just now noticed that feature. I've been clicking on Advance Search all this time. This makes things so much easier, haha.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





numlock said:


> wow, I just now noticed that feature. I've been clicking on Advance Search all this time. This makes things so much easier, haha.


 


 Thanks!
  I've never noticed that feature either!


----------



## chicolom

I use that feature constantly.  Super useful.


----------



## Majestyk

Just got my M-Stage last week.  I'm going to be doing a lot of source comparisons with both the inputs in use at the same time.  How long do you guys think the toggle input switch will last?


----------



## ZenErik

Heh. It's not the best switch, but I always have it on USB anyway. The DAC is more than adequate for now. Eventually I will upgrade.


----------



## unixdog

Hello,
  I placed my order for an m-stage with CFG 6 days ago. I was informed by CFG that the order was shipped on 12/16 (US date) and he provided me with an EMS tracking number.  However, the tracking information for the order on the EMS site hasn't changed the slightest since I first checked it.  It's still indicating the following:
   
  Timing                           Site                  Status 　
  2011-12-18  21:14:00 HANGZHOU  Posting   　   
  21:35:58                        HANGZHOU  Arrival at Sorting Center   　
  2011-12-18  23:12:15 HANGZHOU  Despatch from Sorting Center
   
  Do you think the order is being held up in China or could it be that it's no longer
  being tracked by the EMS site?  I know I've ordered things overseas in the past and I've seen
  situations where the tracking information stops updating,  but then all of a sudden
  it shows up at your house.  Thoughts?  BTW, I did email CFG this morning to see if he could
  provide any insight.  Thanks!


----------



## ZenErik

Could be held up. But also check http://www.usps.com/ because they'll likely be the ones delivering to you. Just input the same tracking number.


----------



## unixdog

Quote: 





zenerik said:


> Could be held up. But also check http://www.usps.com/ because they'll likely be the ones delivering to you. Just input the same tracking number.


 


  Thanks for the quick reply.  I guess I didn't realize that you could use the same tracking# for UPS.  Anyhow, it's
  indicating similar information.
   
   

  [size=1.1em] Origin Post is Preparing Shipment




  [size=1.1em]  [/size]


  [size=1.1em]  [/size]


  Proof of Delivery


   
   
   
  [size=1.1em] Processed Through Sort Facility[/size]


  [size=1.1em] December 18, 2011, 11:12 pm[/size]


  [size=1.1em] HANGZHOU, CHINA PEOPLES REP[/size]


   
   
   
   
  [size=1.1em] Acceptance[/size]


  [size=1.1em] December 18, 2011, 9:14 pm[/size]


  [size=1.1em] CHINA PEOPLES REP[/size]



[/size]


----------



## ZenErik

I recently had ab EMS shipment from Japan that took a few days longer than usual. Perhaps due to the time of year. Be patient.


----------



## unixdog

Quote: 





zenerik said:


> I recently had ab EMS shipment from Japan that took a few days longer than usual. Perhaps due to the time of year. Be patient.


 


  Yep, I guess I have no choice.  I'm a little bummed as I have a pair of 650's and an HRT Music Streamer II showing up by tomorrow and I don't have another amp.  I'm tempted to order a cheap E11 along with an RCA->3.5mm cable to hook up to the HRT so that I can listen to my new HPs while I'm waiting for the m-stage to show up.  I'm pretty sure my iMac headphone out won't drive the 650's decently enough to make it worth listening to.


----------



## Androxylo

Is there any reference on - how many versions of M-stage are there around, how to tell the version when buying? How do they differ?
   
  Maybe wikipedia is the right place for that.


----------



## project86

Quote: 





androxylo said:


> Is there any reference on - how many versions of M-stage are there around, how to tell the version when buying? How do they differ?
> 
> Maybe wikipedia is the right place for that.


 


  It's confusing, but there really aren't as many as it seems. You've got:
   
  1) Original version, as seen in the first post on this thread. 
   
  2) Updated version, same thing but with minor revisions - different PCB to include an encapsulated transformer and some other minor changes (very minor). Externally it has a different enclosure, the most obvious change being a different knob for volume. 
   
  3) Same updated version with integrated USB DAC. As far as I can tell, this is almost identical to #2 above, but with a slightly changed enclosure (swaps an RCA input for a USB input, has venting along the sides). The USB DAC appears to be an add-on daughter card type, so the actual amp section should remain untouched. This is just based on the pictures so I could be wrong.
   
  That's really all there is. #1 was replaced by #2, which is still sold. #3 just came out.
   
  If we are talking about similar amps that are not branded as "Matrix M-Stage" then yes there are other options. I'm just taking your question literally.


----------



## PelPix

Thinking of replacing my input caps with Sonicaps.  Can anyone give me a quick runthrough of installation?


----------



## Majestyk

> Hello,
> I placed my order for an m-stage with CFG 6 days ago. I was informed by CFG that the order was shipped on 12/16 (US date) and he provided me with an EMS tracking number.  However, the tracking information for the order on the EMS site hasn't changed the slightest since I first checked it.  It's still indicating the following:


 
   
  For now, don't worry about the tracking.  You'll just stress yourself out with it.  I ordered the non USB version from CFG via ebay, when they were on sale, and I never even bothered looking at the tracking. I can check how long it took if you want but I'm in Canada so it's kind of apples to oranges.  Keep in mind things are a little slower and chaotic at Christmas time.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





pelpix said:


> Thinking of replacing my input caps with Sonicaps.  Can anyone give me a quick runthrough of installation?


 


   
  I replaced the input caps with wire jumpers.
  Just make sure your sources have no DC offset at the outputs.


----------



## PelPix

Quote: 





chris j said:


> I replaced the input caps with wire jumpers.
> Just make sure your sources have no DC offset at the outputs.


 
  I'm sure they don't.  My DAC has the very same ****ty caps on the output!  Time to tear those off as well!
  (I will test with my meter after I do so, of course.  The entire signal path _shoudln't_ have more than 2 microvolts of offset.)


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





pelpix said:


> I'm sure they don't.  My DAC has the very same ****ty caps on the output!  Time to tear those off as well!
> (I will test with my meter after I do so, of course.  The entire signal path _shoudln't_ have more than 2 microvolts of offset.)


 


   
  Hey man,  do you really want to take out the DACs output caps and the head amps input caps?   I guess you really want to take out the head amps caps and replace with jumpers, but replace the DACs output caps with better ones?


----------



## PelPix

I'll do whatever has the lowest DC offset and the highest quality of sound.


----------



## josliver

Hi,
   
    This is my first post. I spent last few hours reading all previous information about M-Stage amp.
    I need help on four items:
   
    1. My main headphone is a  Sony 999 but I have a set of Etymotic HF5 earphones, anyone ever tried to use the M-Stage with the HF5?
   
    2.  Do the experts recommend to make the "PSU bypass mod" for all the op amp options? and what about the "A class polarization"?
   
    3. So far I read positive things about 9 opamp options and I plan to buy sample of most of them to try, can someone please comment which ones I should buy and the ones that are a waste of time? Which ones I should do PSU mod and A class polarization?
     a. OPA627BP
     b. OPA637AP
     c. OPA602BP
     d. OPA1641
     e. LM4562
     f. LME49720HA
     g. AD797
     h. ADA4627-1
     i. AD8597ARZ
   
    Any other tweak I should do to help the opamps performance?
   
    4. Any suggestions regarding the output devices (Fet´s I believe)? Are they good enough?
   
     Thank you for time and help .... JO


----------



## dogwan

Quote: 





josliver said:


> 3. So far I read positive things about 9 opamp options and I plan to buy sample of most of them to try, can someone please comment which ones I should buy and the ones that are a waste of time? Which ones I should do PSU mod and A class polarization?
> a. OPA627BP
> b. OPA637AP
> c. OPA602BP
> ...


 
   
  I can share my opinion on a few of the above opamps.....in the following order of preference.
   
  1- LME49720HA, freakin' awesome! Smooth top to bottom, best soundstage of any I've tried. Nice and deep bass (a little loose, but I can live with it) and crystalline highs. Also the mids are well rounded. Very lifelike presentation. Amazing detail, I can hear things happening in the studio that I never would've known were happening. Bonus; runs a lot cooler. Chassis barely gets warm.
   
  2- ADA4627-1BRZ, Just got this in. Had high hopes and it is very good. But, I immediately  wanted to put the above LME back in. Forced myself to adjust for a while and listen critically. Better control of the bass, but didn't go quite as deep (maybe just perception due to tighter aspect). Highs not quite as smooth but still good. Overall the soundstage was narrower. Mids a little subdued.
   
  3- OPA627BP (stock), I liked this one better than the same in class A. Smoother than the class A modded one. But not quite as good as the ADA4627. I liked it until I heard better. Now it just sounds dirty.
   
  4- OPA627 (class A modded), honestly I don't know what the fuss is about. Sure the dynamics increased. But I feel it is at the expense of overall coherency. I'm very sensitive to upper register distortion and I swear this chip is slightly grating in the highs. Reminds me of a "hot" CD that has been mastered into clipping.
   
  Caveat: I bought my M-stage used and it came with both the OPA627's and as such I cannot testify as to their authenticity. It could very well be that they are counterfeit.
   
  Also I have modded the M-stage by replacing all the cheap "chinese blue" metal film resistors in the signal path with carbon films. This was a subtle improvement. I've always found simple Carbon Films to have a much smoother sound than metal films. And I have serious reservations about the cheap ones commonly found in imports.
   
  Another mod I did was to replace all the Wima caps in the PS and Signal path with better quality Panasonic Polypro's and bypassed the output caps with Solens. Again, another subtle upgrade. Wima's have a following I have never understood. Every time I've replaced Wima's I've been happier.
   
  I've been using this HPA with a variety of cans, but my two main "go to" instruments have been modded Fostex T50rp's and Sennheiser HD600's.
   
  -Dogwan


----------



## Xymordos

I have to agree with you, LME49710HA sounded waaaaay better than OPA627/637SM for the same reasons.


----------



## unixdog

I'm looking to upgrade my stock op-amp to the OPA627AP with the class A biasing mod.
  I ordered my m-stage from CFG and he was great to deal with throughout the process.  His
  customer service was exceptional.  However, while scanning through this thread, I recall seeing
  a couple of comments questioning the authenticity of the op-amps that he is selling at his store.
  Prior to dropping $30, can someone please put my mind at ease and let me know if there's any
  truth to this and whether or not I should be concerned?  Based on my dealings with him, I can't
  imagine that he'd be selling any "fakes", but it's hard not to be concerned when you see comments
  like that.  Thanks in advance for you feedback.
   
  EDIT:  Might I be better off to just order the class A biasing adapter from TAM and order the
  op-amps from another source such as Digi-Key?


----------



## PelPix

Quote: 





unixdog said:


> I'm looking to upgrade my stock op-amp to the OPA627AP with the class A biasing mod.
> I ordered my m-stage from CFG and he was great to deal with throughout the process.  His
> customer service was exceptional.  However, while scanning through this thread, I recall seeing
> a couple of comments questioning the authenticity of the op-amps that he is selling at his store.
> ...


 

 I think you'd be better off with the LM4562 or the NE5532.  They were both specifically designed for this application and have the best all-around performance.  The 627 is too fast for the application and the circuit. I have the biased 627AP and it's dreadful.  It's totally uncontrolled.


----------



## dogwan

Quote: 





unixdog said:


> I'm looking to upgrade my stock op-amp to the OPA627AP with the class A biasing mod.
> I ordered my m-stage from CFG and he was great to deal with throughout the process.  His
> customer service was exceptional.  However, while scanning through this thread, I recall seeing
> a couple of comments questioning the authenticity of the op-amps that he is selling at his store.
> ...


 

 While he may not be inclined to intentionally sell fakes, the Chinese market is rife w/ counterfeiting and he could actually not be aware that his source is substituting fakes. I too have read the posts and the conclusion I've come to based on the information available is that if the price of a chip hand assembled onto an adapter (and being re-sold after mark-up) is cheaper than the cost of just getting the raw part from a known authorized vendor then I would be suspicious. 
   
  For all the hype around the OPA627 and how great it is supposed to be I was really disappointed. See my above post. I am tempted to locate known legitimate ones and do a comparison just to satisfy my curiosity.
   
  Now, like I said, my M-stage came used and I don't know where the OPA627's came from so if I suspect mine of being fakes that is no reflection on TAM. He has a good reputation here and in no way do I wish to imply that he is anything less than honest. I personally have never dealt with him.
   
  A quick google search for "fake capacitor" and "fake opamps" and you'll find plenty of stories to cause concern. Especially the capacitors. Why anyone would go through the effort to knock off items only worth a couple buck is beyond reason. It's not like a Gucci bag someone wears on their arm for show.  But, then again, if you owned the factory and could slip a large order through unnoticed then the reward might be too tempting.
   
  -Dogwan


----------



## Guess?

Is this it?
 LME49710HA X2 + Adaptor  Just plug this into M-stage & play, right?


----------



## PelPix

Quote: 





guess? said:


> Is this it?
> LME49710HA X2 + Adaptor  Just plug this into M-stage & play, right?


 

 Just get an LM4562 for like $3.  It's the exact same chip as the LME49720 (National renamed it for marketing purposes and listed it twice in their catalog).  Crosstalk is negligible.  You don't need 2X single OPA.


----------



## Tribbs

Quote: 





pelpix said:


> Just get an LM4562 for like $3.  It's the exact same chip as the LME49720 (National renamed it for marketing purposes and listed it twice in their catalog).  Crosstalk is negligible.  You don't need 2X single OPA.


 
   
LM4562, LME49720 and LME79860 are all the same except;
   
  LME49720 +- 17V max
 LME49860 +- 22V max
   
_National uses an additional 'E' in the name (LMExxxxx) to indicate their new high performance audio products... ("E" stands for enhanced ,"P" for precision)..._
   
_National had re-numbered their audio line to LME so it needed a place in that listing. But after the LM4562 won all sorts of awards (EDN product of the year, etc.) National had to leave the old number in the catalog because lots of people already knew it by LM4562. In fact, National had a significant promotional campaign tied to the old number._
   
  Technically they are the same but listeners still insist they sound different (read through to page 2)
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/chip-amps/107344-lme49720-vs-lm4562.html
   
  Although I have not personally compared them, I am fond of the LME49720HA in the metal TO-99 can, class "A" biased, with a TO-5 type heatsink for an extra margin of cooling.


----------



## Guess?

Thanks guys, that was helpful info!


----------



## GamerOne

I got myself an M-stage now and it sounds AMAZING with the K701's 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  Definitely a step up from the Essence ST's internal amp!
  The sound is more warm/soft and clean and overall a lot more pleasant to listen to. Its also a bit more detailed, I actually hear background noise in a couple of songs now that I didn't notice before.. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  The next thing I'm thinking about doing is switching the op amp.
  Like I said before I think that it already sounds amazing, but if it can actually get even better for a small price I wouldn't say no 
   
  So, what op amp would you guys recommend for the M-stage + K701?
  LME49720HA seems like a nice choice from what I've read.


----------



## PelPix

Quote: 





gamerone said:


> I got myself an M-stage now and it sounds AMAZING with the K701's
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Either LME49720 (AKA LM4562) or, if you want to spend a bit less, the NE5532.  They are both designed specifically for being used in the way that the Matrix M-Stage uses op-amps, and should provide optimal distortion, frequency response, and soundstage.
  The 627 is too fast.


----------



## Z3120

Quote: 





jeff119 said:


> can someone help me?
> I just got my matrix m stage. whenever i change my gain, my left side will always be much louder than the right side.
> The sound is only balanced when i use the default gain.
> the other 3 gains will result in louder left side.
> ...


 
  Quote: 





francisdemarte said:


> Do you have both sets of dip switch set exactly the same? If they are you might have a bad set of switches.


 
   
  Thank you. I feel dumb :lol
   
  Quoting for anyone else who may have had the same troubles.


----------



## GamerOne

Quote: 





pelpix said:


> Either LME49720 (AKA LM4562) or, if you want to spend a bit less, the NE5532.  They are both designed specifically for being used in the way that the Matrix M-Stage uses op-amps, and should provide optimal distortion, frequency response, and soundstage.
> The 627 is too fast.


 

  
  Its leaning more and more towards LME49720HA 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 One thing I wonder about it though, is it colder-sounding than OPA2134(which I understand is the stock-op amp)? Cause I don't want to loose any of the warmth I currently get from my M-stage as I feel it has just the right amount of warmth right now 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Other than that, got any tips of good places to buy a LME49720HA? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I live in sweden btw.


----------



## PelPix

Quote: 





gamerone said:


> Its leaning more and more towards LME49720HA
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 The LM4562 is the LME49720HA (Identical design and components), but it's in a native DIP8 package, so you won't have to solder it to an adapter.
  As for the sound, it's closer to what the circuit requires in an op-amp, so I'd say it'd be more neutral all-around, but likely not colder.


----------



## GamerOne

Quote: 





pelpix said:


> The LM4562 is the LME49720HA (Identical design and components), but it's in a native DIP8 package, so you won't have to solder it to an adapter.
> As for the sound, it's closer to what the circuit requires in an op-amp, so I'd say it'd be more neutral all-around, but likely not colder.


 


 Hmm, come to think of it, I do belive that the Essence ST/STX has a LM4562 as stock-op amp in the buffer. I could switch it and test it in the M-stage instead 
  Also, I have a pair of LME49720NA, how do you think these are compared to OPA2134? Or compared to LM4562/LME49720HA?


----------



## PelPix

Quote: 





gamerone said:


> Hmm, come to think of it, I do belive that the Essence ST/STX has a LM4562 as stock-op amp in the buffer. I could switch it and test it in the M-stage instead
> Also, I have a pair of LME49720NA, how do you think these are compared to OPA2134? Or compared to LM4562/LME49720HA?


 


  Sorry, allow me to clear things up
  LME49720NA is the DIP8 version of the LME49720HA, and so is the LM4562
  The LM4562_ is_ the LME49720NA.  The only difference is the part number printed on the outside.  Why?  National already had marketing tied to the LM4562, so they just listed it twice.
  In summary, the all three op-amps are exactly the same.  The only difference is that the LME49720HA is in a different form factor.  The LM4562 in your STX, the two LME49720NAs you own, and the LME49720HA you're looking into buying _are identical._


----------



## Oderi

Using my new M-Stage as we speak and everything seems fine so far except for the fact that there's quite a lot of background hiss compared to my uDac 2. My setup at the moment is foobar -> uDac 2 -> RCA to M-Stage -> M50's. Might the hiss be due to the usage of some random old, apparently sub-par quality RCA cables between uDac and M-Stage?
  And just to make sure, with my setup I'm only using the dac portion of uDac, right? That's how I've understood it. Forgive me for me ignorance. What would happen if the signal was passed through 2 amps?


----------



## ZenErik

I don't get any hiss with my M-Stage w/ USB DAC + Q701. May possibly be the interconnect cables.


----------



## PelPix

Quote: 





oderi said:


> Using my new M-Stage as we speak and everything seems fine so far except for the fact that there's quite a lot of background hiss compared to my uDac 2. My setup at the moment is foobar -> uDac 2 -> RCA to M-Stage -> M50's. Might the hiss be due to the usage of some random old, apparently sub-par quality RCA cables between uDac and M-Stage?
> And just to make sure, with my setup I'm only using the dac portion of uDac, right? That's how I've understood it. Forgive me for me ignorance. What would happen if the signal was passed through 2 amps?


 


  Make sure your udac's volume is all the way up just in case.  Does changing the volume on the udac change the volume?


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





oderi said:


> Using my new M-Stage as we speak and everything seems fine so far except for the fact that there's quite a lot of background hiss compared to my uDac 2. My setup at the moment is foobar -> uDac 2 -> RCA to M-Stage -> M50's. Might the hiss be due to the usage of some random old, apparently sub-par quality RCA cables between uDac and M-Stage?
> And just to make sure, with my setup I'm only using the dac portion of uDac, right? That's how I've understood it. Forgive me for me ignorance. What would happen if the signal was passed through 2 amps?


 


  I assume the M-stage doesn't hiss by itself (without the U-Dac plugged in)?  I think the Udac 2 RCA's are line out, if you can adjust the volume on them with the knob then they are pre-out.  You can try switching RCAs.


----------



## Tribbs

LM4562*HA* and LME49720*HA* look like this TO-99 package

  Requires adapter http://cimarrontechnology.com/to-99to8-pindipadapterpn020601-1.aspx
   
   
  LM4562*MA* and LME49720*MA* look like this Surface Mount Technology (SMT) package

  Requires adapter http://cimarrontechnology.com/so8to8-pindipadapterpn970601-3.aspx
   
   
  LM4562*NA* and LME49720*NA* look like this 8-pin Dual In-line Package (DIP)

  Plug-and-Play in the Matrix M-Stage


----------



## PelPix

You mixed up the MA and NA.
   
  Edit:
  There you go


----------



## Majestyk

So to get the best LME49720HA sound, which one of these three should I get?
   
  (Actual LME49720HA + Adapter)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/180753572913?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649#ht_500wt_1094
   
  (LME49720HA x2 + Adapter)
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LME49710HA-X2-Adaptor-/180749622308?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a15845c24#ht_500wt_1180
   
  (LM4562)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/National-Semiconductor-LM4562-dual-high-performance-high-fidelity-audio-op-amp-/260898916323?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cbec987e3#ht_674wt_1144


----------



## PelPix

Whoops.  Read the wrong name.
  Yeah. Buy the LM4562.  It's a drop-in replacement.


----------



## Oderi

Quote: 





pelpix said:


> Make sure your udac's volume is all the way up just in case.  Does changing the volume on the udac change the volume?


 


  It does. That's what I wondering about myself, actually, although I don't really have a clue about how volume control specifically works. Seemed weird a dac only would somehow be in control of the volume.
  So it's pre-out? What does that mean in practice? There's also coax out that I'm using for my speakers (that don't work at the moment); is there an adapter or something to divide the coax to L/R to be able to plug M-Stage into that?


----------



## HaVoC-28

Quote: 





pelpix said:


> Either LME49720 (AKA LM4562) or, if you want to spend a bit less, the NE5532.  They are both designed specifically for being used in the way that the Matrix M-Stage uses op-amps, and should provide optimal distortion, frequency response, and soundstage.
> The 627 is too fast.


 


  5532 ? this cheap generic opamp  peraphs even worst than stock OPA2134... OPA627 too fast ? hu ? , peraphs you don't like OPA627 or have a fake one , they are good ones , just overpriced (from right source like farnell or digikey) . And 2* LME49710NA are better than one LME49720/LM4562 . HA version in TO99 package are better .


----------



## unixdog

Quote: 





pelpix said:


> Whoops.  Read the wrong name.
> Yeah. Buy the LM4562.  It's a drop-in replacement.


 


  Thank you for the information.  Regarding the LM4562, can you please comment (or anyone else) on the
  sonic differences between this chip and the stock opamp?  Are the differences night & day or more subtle?
  I'm currently using the stock opamp and I'm just curious if this upgrade, or any other for that matter, really
  offer a significant improvement in SQ. (something a non-audiophile type would even notice)  Thanks.


----------



## Tribbs

The difference is subtle for the average ear.  It is said that tube rolling has a greater effect.  To which I concur.  But, opamp rolling is generally cheaper than tube rolling.
   
  To wit - If you go here (scroll down to "*LM456NA*/NOPB") and set up an account you can get free samples!
  
  Or, if you want to try a free sample of the LME49720*NA *or LME49720*HA* (TO-99) go here.
   
  Try all three and report back here


----------



## josliver

Quote: 





dogwan said:


> Also I have modded the M-stage by replacing all the cheap "chinese blue" metal film resistors in the signal path with carbon films. This was a subtle improvement. I've always found simple Carbon Films to have a much smoother sound than metal films. And I have serious reservations about the cheap ones commonly found in imports.
> 
> Another mod I did was to replace all the Wima caps in the PS and Signal path with better quality Panasonic Polypro's and bypassed the output caps with Solens. Again, another subtle upgrade. Wima's have a following I have never understood. Every time I've replaced Wima's I've been happier.
> 
> ...


 
   
     Thank you for the information.
   
     I still did not receive my m-stage, I will receive it during this week.
     Meanwhile, so that I can order some parts in advance, can you please tell me which were "the cheap "chinese blue" metal film resistors in the signal path" you replaced with carbon film, the position on the board and the values ?
     Can you also tell me regarding the "Wima caps in the PS and Signal path with better quality Panasonic Polypro's and bypassed the output caps with Solens, the positions and valuesffor tthe caps to be replaced? Can I found all it is needed in the Mouser Electronics Web site? I plan to buy from them.
   
      Any one wantst to suggest more changes with positive impact?
   
     Thank you ... JOliveira


----------



## Tribbs

If you are going to go through the trouble of replacing resistors, capacitors and anything else with _boutique_ components en masse you may want to think about building a DIY Lehmann BCL/Matrix M-Stage clone in kit form - Such as the Lovely Cube here!


----------



## francisdemarte

Quote: 





tribbs said:


> If you are going to go through the trouble of replacing resistors, capacitors and anything else with _boutique_ components en masse you may want to think about building a DIY Lehmann BCL/Matrix M-Stage clone in kit form - Such as the Lovely Cube here!


 


  +1 Head-fi Thread link in my sig


----------



## genclaymore

Have any one tried audio-gd's OPA's inside the matrix M-stage if so, did they fit ?  Because I thinking about getting some OPA, after I get a hold of the Matrix-M Stage. But I wanna make sure it has room side to fit them.  Also how well do they work with the M-stage, mainly the Earth.


----------



## Majestyk

So there won't be a huge difference with the OPA2134 (which is the current stock opamp) and the LM4562?  Correct?
   


> think about building a DIY Lehmann BCL/Matrix M-Stage clone in kit form - Such as the Lovely Cube here!


 
   
  I know Tribbs is recommending the kit but I must say I would not recommend the stock (already built) Lovely Cube.  It does not sound as good as my M-Stage with OPA2134.


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





genclaymore said:


> Have any one tried audio-gd's OPA's inside the matrix M-stage if so, did they fit ?  Because I thinking about getting some OPA, after I get a hold of the Matrix-M Stage. But I wanna make sure it has room side to fit them.  Also how well do they work with the M-stage, mainly the Earth.


 


  I doubt it would fit in the USB version, as the empty space is taken up by the USB module.


----------



## Tribbs

Quote: 





majestyk said:


> I know Tribbs is recommending the kit but I must say I would not recommend the stock (already built) Lovely Cube.  It does not sound as good as my M-Stage with OPA2134.


 

 I only suggest the DIY kit if you are thinking about replacing many resistors, capacitors and who knows what else with boutique components.
  Not a good idea to be unsoldering a perfectly working M-Stage if you are going to replace many components.  Especially if you are not as skilled as a "dentist" with a soldering iron - IMHO.


----------



## Tribbs

Quote: 





genclaymore said:


> Have any one tried audio-gd's OPA's inside the matrix M-stage if so, did they fit ?  Because I thinking about getting some OPA, after I get a hold of the Matrix-M Stage. But I wanna make sure it has room side to fit them.  Also how well do they work with the M-stage, mainly the Earth.


 

 It fits inside the Lovely Cube > http://www.alicemagicbox.com/lasercollection/lovelycubehdam.html
 And/Or you can try the long extension http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/diy/OPA/lead.jpg
   
  Addendum:
   
  I knew I saw a photo of a Audio-GD installed in the M-Stage right here in this very thread:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/475618/matrix-m-stage-amp-review-simple-cheap-and-excellent/825#post_6911344
   
  While searching this thread I ran across many posts rating different OpAmps for the M-Stage.
  It may take a while to read through 155 pages but there are some real gems to be had in here.


----------



## dogwan

Quote: 





tribbs said:


> If you are going to go through the trouble of replacing resistors, capacitors and anything else with _boutique_ components en masse you may want to think about building a DIY Lehmann BCL/Matrix M-Stage clone in kit form - Such as the Lovely Cube here!


 
  FWIW, the mods I described were done with far from "boutique" parts.
   
  The Carbon Film resistors came from the Radio Shack bulk pack (tan body). Amazingly good deal and they actually have quite a following in certain circles as being giant killers for cheap resistors. My experience has been nothing but positive when I've used them. I know some don't buy into resistors making a huge sonic difference. But I am extremely sensitive to high frequency distortion and can totally tell the difference between Carbon Films and Metal Films, especially when in the signal path. Metal films just have an edge to them that I don't like. They are fast though.  But I digress, they were cheap.
   
  All the Panasonic Polypro caps also came from my parts bin. I just lucked out in having exactly what I needed. However, they are negligibly priced at Mouser. And the Solens Metallized Film bypass caps were surplus as well. Again lucky to have an appropriate value on hand and they are also very cheap.
   
  So all in all I didn't actually spend a dime except on the Opamp.
  
   


  Quote: 





josliver said:


> Thank you for the information.
> 
> I still did not receive my m-stage, I will receive it during this week.
> Meanwhile, so that I can order some parts in advance, can you please tell me which were "the cheap "chinese blue" metal film resistors in the signal path" you replaced with carbon film, the position on the board and the values ?
> ...


 

 josliver,
   
  I would like to help but I don't have that info readily available.
   
  What I did was locate a copy of the Lovely Cube schematic and trace it out against the M-stage. As far as I found they are essentially the same circuit. I then just sat down and replaced each part in the signal path. Each part I pulled was checked against the schematic for value and also against the replacement part. It helps if you can read resistor codes. Oh, I also paused to listen at appropriate intervals to see if what I was doing was moving backwards or forwards in sound quality. Nothing I replaced made it worse.
   
  Earlier in this thread is a few posts that talk about replacing the Wima caps, probably really far back at this point. I would use the thread search tool and type in "Wima", see where that gets you. Other than that it helps if you understand cap values too.
   
  Everything was a direct replacement except the output caps were the same value with bypass caps of about 10% . So the capacitance was bumped up with better quality. There was one spot in the PS, between the two heatsinks, where there are 6 small caps. I was able to barely fit 4 upgrades in there. The other 2 had to be mounted on the underside of the board. I believe that if you can find the posts I refer to in the above paragraph there is mention of this.
   
  I'm no expert and if I was thinking ahead I would've kept better notes. But I was just  shooting from the hip (I'm prone to go "cowboy" from time to time). My intent was to share my experience. Not to advocate doing the same mods. But I did like what I ended up with.
   
  I might be talked into opening her up again and taking some pics just for the record.
   
  -Dogwan


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





havoc-28 said:


> 5532 ? this cheap generic opamp  peraphs even worst than stock OPA2134... OPA627 too fast ? hu ? , peraphs you don't like OPA627 or have a fake one , they are good ones , just overpriced (from right source like farnell or digikey) . And 2* LME49710NA are better than one LME49720/LM4562 . HA version in TO99 package are better .


 
   
  LM4562/LME49710/49720 doesn't seem to like the lack of global feedback in the M-Stage, and so DC offset changes with volume and gain.  With OPA602BP, you will get better sound, much better soundstaging, and none of the funkiness.  Now there's a real "drop-in" replacement.


----------



## PelPix

Quote: 





havoc-28 said:


> 5532 ? this cheap generic opamp  peraphs even worst than stock OPA2134... OPA627 too fast ? hu ? , peraphs you don't like OPA627 or have a fake one , they are good ones , just overpriced (from right source like farnell or digikey) . And 2* LME49710NA are better than one LME49720/LM4562 . HA version in TO99 package are better .


 

 For the ten-trillionth time, cheap =/= bad
  the 5532 was designed SPECIFICALLY to be the gain-stage in an audio amplifier.  No matter how much more you spend, _there is no better op-amp for the job than the NE5532 _(With the exception of perhaps the LM4562, IF the problem above doesn't exist)
  The 627 isn't a good choice because (unless I've messed up somewhere, which is a very real possibility) it's _faster than the signal it's being fed_.  Plus, the M-Stage doesn't have a circuit fit to properly utilize the 627, so bad things may happen.


----------



## chicolom

Some people in this thread asked me for some Matrix M-stage *DAC* impressions and comparisons to the HRT Music Streamer II and FiiO E10.
   
   
  Here you go  ---> http://www.head-fi.org/t/587526/three-dac-comparison-fiio-e10-hrt-ms-ii-m-stage-usb#post_8007426


----------



## putente

I was one of those... Thanks! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Quote: 





chicolom said:


> Some people in this thread asked me for some Matrix M-stage *DAC* impressions and comparisons to the HRT Music Streamer II and FiiO E10.
> 
> 
> Here you go  ---> http://www.head-fi.org/t/587526/three-dac-comparison-fiio-e10-hrt-ms-ii-m-stage-usb#post_8007426


----------



## HaVoC-28

Quote: 





mad max said:


> LM4562/LME49710/49720 doesn't seem to like the lack of global feedback in the M-Stage, and so DC offset changes with volume and gain.  With OPA602BP, you will get better sound, much better soundstaging, and none of the funkiness.  Now there's a real "drop-in" replacement.


 


   
  2 LM49710 and one LM4562 on my m-stage worked fine , but not what i licked  more see below .


  
  Quote: 





pelpix said:


> For the ten-trillionth time, cheap =/= bad
> the 5532 was designed SPECIFICALLY to be the gain-stage in an audio amplifier.  No matter how much more you spend, _there is no better op-amp for the job than the NE5532 _(With the exception of perhaps the LM4562, IF the problem above doesn't exist)
> The 627 isn't a good choice because (unless I've messed up somewhere, which is a very real possibility) it's _faster than the signal it's being fed_.  Plus, the M-Stage doesn't have a circuit fit to properly utilize the 627, so bad things may happen.


 


  Hum well peraphs 5532 is not my cup of tea at all for me they are worst than OPA627 , LM4562 and siblings ,  or AD797 this on a M-stage (all of them worked on my M-stage without any probelm for me at least  or  in a soundcard like auzen bravura/forte (but not the same purpose i know) . All of them for me are way better than 5532 ... But my favorite was OPA MOON ... it's just tastes peraphs and your right saying that 5532 work well but for me i don't like it at all 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 , if OPA627 are too fast well for me they sound good 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 .
   
  Now i have C2.1 amp and i use it mostly with ACSS , some time switch to moon for fun . 
   
  This is just personal impressions ^^ .


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





pelpix said:


> For the ten-trillionth time, cheap =/= bad
> the 5532 was designed SPECIFICALLY to be the gain-stage in an audio amplifier.  No matter how much more you spend, _there is no better op-amp for the job than the NE5532 _(With the exception of perhaps the LM4562, IF the problem above doesn't exist)
> The 627 isn't a good choice because (unless I've messed up somewhere, which is a very real possibility) it's _faster than the signal it's being fed_.  Plus, the M-Stage doesn't have a circuit fit to properly utilize the 627, so bad things may happen.


 

 The 627 is faster than the signal it is fed...............................say what?
  What the heck does that mean?   Based on what?
   
  Keep in mind that the NE5532 is a very old design and was designed as a low noise, low distortion audio op-amp way back in time.
  I'm sure you could do a LOT worse, but you can get more modern stuff than an NE5532.  Like a J-FET input op amp, for example.


----------



## PelPix

Quote: 





chris j said:


> The 627 is faster than the signal it is fed...............................say what?
> What the heck does that mean?   Based on what?
> 
> Keep in mind that the NE5532 is a very old design and was designed as a low noise, low distortion audio op-amp way back in time.
> I'm sure you could do a LOT worse, but you can get more modern stuff than an NE5532.  Like a J-FET input op amp, for example.


 
   
  What's wrong with a design being old, ESPECIALLY if it outclasses essentially everything else as an all-around audio amp?  Other amps are better at some important things but worse at other things that are also important!
 As for "too fast," audio signals only change so fast.  Analog audio signals, restricted to human hearing bandwidths as it is, only (ITSELF) has an equivalent slew rate of about 0.1-0.9 V/uS if you've got 20 volts to slew.
  Anything over, say, 5 V/uS for 20 volts either has no effect or is detrimental (in control, management, power usage, heat, and so on.)
  J-FET isn't really that good for audio because it's designed for direct current.  Audio signals are not direct current.


----------



## Mad Max

JFET input audio opamps are fine these days.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





pelpix said:


> What's wrong with a design being old, ESPECIALLY if it outclasses essentially everything else as an all-around audio amp?  Other amps are better at some important things but worse at other things that are also important!
> As for "too fast," audio signals only change so fast.  Analog audio signals, restricted to human hearing bandwidths as it is, only (ITSELF) has an equivalent slew rate of about 0.1-0.9 V/uS if you've got 20 volts to slew.
> Anything over, say, 5 V/uS for 20 volts either has no effect or is detrimental (in control, management, power usage, heat, and so on.)
> J-FET isn't really that good for audio because it's designed for direct current.  Audio signals are not direct current.


 


 I have no problem with an old design, but there are a lot of very modern Op Amps very suitable for audio use.
  I'm not too sure why you think the NE5532 is better than other audio Op Amps?
  Noise?
  Distortion?
  Output current?
  Offset?
  Something else?
  And how can you say the OPA627 slews too fast for audio usage? It may be more than we need for headphone amps but I don't see that being an issue.
  The OPA627 may draw a bit more operating current but in a Matrix M Stage I don't think that matters too much, most of the heat coming off the M Stage is from the power supply regulators and Class A output transistors. Even a Class A biased OPA627 throws off very little heat.
   
  JFETs are not designed for DC use only, just like any other transistor (MOSFET or BJT) they can be used in an AC circuit or a DC circuit.
  In fact, JFETs are more linear than regular "transistors" (BJTs).


----------



## PelPix

It's not better in any one individual specification, but it's the only audio op-amp that is moderately good at everything.  All of the others are better at some things and worse at others.


----------



## PelPix

Quick question: I have a DT880/600Ohm, and 10dB gain at 12 o'clock is listenable.  I was wondering if it's actually enough gain.


----------



## Sganzerla

I prefer mine with 20dB gain. I use it at 9 o'clock, and the sound is a little louder than it was a while ago,before some upgrades, but I like it.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





pelpix said:


> Quick question: I have a DT880/600Ohm, and 10dB gain at 12 o'clock is listenable.  I was wondering if it's actually enough gain.


 


  It doesn't really matter, try it both ways and see which one you prefer.
  I usually listen with gain set at 18 dB, but 10 dB also sounds fine, I just have to turn the volume up more when I set it at 10 dB.


----------



## Sganzerla

Here there is a difference in sound quality too, using different gains.
   Better to not overlook this.


----------



## Oderi

Quote:


oderi said:


> So it's pre-out? What does that mean in practice? There's also coax out that I'm using for my speakers (that don't work at the moment); is there an adapter or something to divide the coax to L/R to be able to plug M-Stage into that?


 

  
  I'd really appreciate a reply here. The RCA out of my uDAC can be volume controlled. What I learned from wiki is that this doesn't necessarily mean the signal is actually amplified; might be one of those volume controls where maximum level is +0 dB and you can only decrease from there. Apologies for my lack of proper terminology.
  Anyway, the main issue is the hiss when using my M-Stage. Is the low quality RCA connection (random old, thin cables wires) between my uDac and the M-Stage the most probable cause for this? Can the fact that uDac might work as a pre-amp have anything to do with the hiss?


----------



## Tribbs

Quote: 





sganzerla said:


> I prefer mine with 20dB gain. I use it at 9 o'clock, and the sound is a little louder than it was a while ago,before some upgrades, but I like it.


 

 FWIW - I had read elsewhere that the levels between the left and right channels in stereo volume controls (pots/potentimeters) are usually not very well balanced within the first few tens of degrees (6 to 8 or 9 o'clock).  It is best to be past the 9 o'clock position.


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





oderi said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> I'd really appreciate a reply here. The RCA out of my uDAC can be volume controlled. What I learned from wiki is that this doesn't necessarily mean the signal is actually amplified; might be one of those volume controls where maximum level is +0 dB and you can only decrease from there. Apologies for my lack of proper terminology.
> Anyway, the main issue is the hiss when using my M-Stage. Is the low quality RCA connection (random old, thin cables wires) between my uDac and the M-Stage the most probable cause for this? Can the fact that uDac might work as a pre-amp have anything to do with the hiss?


 

 I think pre-out is like an lineout + volume control.  I'm not sure if it's passed through the amp, but I sort of doubt it...
   
  Regardless, it shouldn't be related to the hissing problem.  You need to report on what tests you've done to try and narrow down the problem.  It's either a problem with the uDac, the M-stage, or the RCAs so you need to isolate each and figure out which is hissing.  Does the uDac causes hissing on other systems - like hooked up to a stereo hifi system?  Does the M-stage hiss with other sources through the same RCA input?  Do different RCAs fix it?  Etc.
   
  I don't know of any easy ways to convert coax to stereo and if there is a way its probably cumbersome and expensive so I wouldn't pursue that.
   
   
  EDIT:  It could even be a problem of connecting the uDac to a really noisy USB hub or something (that would probably make a buzzing/hum noise though), so make sure your going straight into the computer via USB cable ( + try a different cable).


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





oderi said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> I'd really appreciate a reply here. The RCA out of my uDAC can be volume controlled. What I learned from wiki is that this doesn't necessarily mean the signal is actually amplified; might be one of those volume controls where maximum level is +0 dB and you can only decrease from there. Apologies for my lack of proper terminology.
> Anyway, the main issue is the hiss when using my M-Stage. Is the low quality RCA connection (random old, thin cables wires) between my uDac and the M-Stage the most probable cause for this? Can the fact that uDac might work as a pre-amp have anything to do with the hiss?


 

 You can usually rules out the cables, unless there is some tarnish on the RCA plugs.
  Try unplugging the cables from the M Stage.
  Do you still get hiss?   M Stages are normally very quiet. You should not get hiss from the M Stage no matter what volume you have the M Satge set to. 
  Try plugging the uDAC back into the M Stage and try turning the uDAC volume up and down on the uDAC and see if the hiss gets louder and quieter.
 There is probably an amp between the uDAC volume control and the uDAC RCA outputs to buffer the output stage.


----------



## supertrichi

Hi guys!

 Both M-stage and lovely cube are LBC clones, but I heard that the sound of M-stage is warm and has more basses than lovely cube, which is a bit cold.
 I looked some photos of both amps, and they are pretty equal, so I'm a bit confused

 Is there anyone who could explain me the reasons of this differences?
   
  Thank you in advance
  Pasquale


----------



## GamerOne

Is there any op amp which is warm, yet has good detail, clarity and soundstage? (Perhaps I'm wishing for too much here 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





)


----------



## Oderi

uDac's volume doesn't seem to affect the volume of the hiss, and indeed I do get the same hiss even with uDac turned off (and actually, just tried, with the RCA cables disconnected).
   
  One thing I forgot to mention: ampcity forgot to deliver a power cable with the uDac so I've been using my old computer's one while waiting for a replacement one to arrive. Are there such differences between power cables that they would cause hiss or worse, somehow damage the amp and cause hiss as a result?


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





oderi said:


> uDac's volume doesn't seem to affect the volume of the hiss, and indeed I do get the same hiss even with uDac turned off (and actually, just tried, with the RCA cables disconnected).
> 
> One thing I forgot to mention: ampcity forgot to deliver a power cable with the uDac so I've been using my old computer's one while waiting for a replacement one to arrive. Are there such differences between power cables that they would cause hiss or worse, somehow damage the amp and cause hiss as a result?


 


  So the M-stage alone is hissing with nothing connected?


----------



## HydronQc

Just received my m-stage usb. The rca input work great but the usb input is not woking properly, earing noise when there is no music and when I turn on music its buzzy not clear at all.


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





hydronqc said:


> Just received my m-stage usb. The rca input work great but the usb input is not woking properly, earing noise when there is no music and when I turn on music its buzzy not clear at all.


 


  Sounds like a noisy USB port/hub, or some weird power issue that is carrying over to the m-stage...?


----------



## HydronQc

I have unplugged the usb cable but still the same noise.


----------



## Oderi

Quote:


chicolom said:


> So the M-stage alone is hissing with nothing connected?


 


  Aye.
  Can the power cable be ruled out? Aren't they all, given they have the same connection plugs in both ends, pretty much the same?
  Is it a case of a faulty M-Stage?
   
  The hiss isn't noticeable when listening  to music at a normal volume, which with Windows, foobar and uDac volumes at the maximums means not much more than 8 o'clock on M-Stage.
  If I turn music off and crank the volume of M-Stage to ~12 o'clock, you can hear it more clearly. Some kind of hiss is noticeable, without music, even if the volume of M-Stage is at the minimum.


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





hydronqc said:


> I have unplugged the usb cable but still the same noise.


 

 Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Oderi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Aye.
> Can the power cable be ruled out? Aren't they all, given they have the same connection plugs in both ends, pretty much the same?
> ...


 

 So both your M-stages hiss by themselves?  What the heck...
   
  I'm pretty new to the m-stage myself, maybe someone else with more experience can chime in about the noise?
   
  What is that screw on the bottom for?
   
   
*Oderi*, I would rule out the power cord, but you could try different outlet or at least make sure your not plugged into a lightswitch/dimmer outlet or anything like that.  It sounds like your gain may be set too high if on the m-stage if you get too much volume after 8 o'clock.  What headphones and what gain are you using?  Something more like 11 o'clock would be good.
   
  The M-stage shouldn't be hissing until ridiculously loud headphone & ear exploding volume levels.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





chicolom said:


> Quote:
> 
> So both your M-stages hiss by themselves?  What the heck...
> 
> ...


 

 My take on all this:
   
  The screw on the bottom has nothing to do with the hissing.
  A power cord won't fix this, an ungrounded power cord MAY cause the amp to create a low frequency hum or buzz.
  (The power cord should always be grounded for safety.)
 I have a Matrix M Stage WITHOUT a USB port, it is extremely quiet when there in nothing plugged into it.
  It is also extremely quiet when my CD player or my iBasso D12 DAC is plugged in.
   
  I agree with Chicolom, the M Stage shouldn't hiss unless you are listening at ear exploding volumes.
  Try setting the gain to 10 or even 0 dB. Let us know what happens.
  Right now I am listening to my M Stage with gain set to 18 dB........no troubles!
  I can only guess that you have a noisy Op Amp?  Have you tried any Op Amp rolling?


----------



## HydronQc

Can the op amp noise only apear when im on the usb input?


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





hydronqc said:


> Can the op amp noise only apear when im on the usb input?


 


 No................if it is only on the USB input there must be a problem with the USB DAC circuitry.
  I have an iBasso D12 and have no noise or hissssss problems with it's USB input.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





gamerone said:


> Is there any op amp which is warm, yet has good detail, clarity and soundstage? (Perhaps I'm wishing for too much here
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


 Go back in this thread about 2 or 3 or 4 weeks, somewhere in there is a long but very, very good discussion about Op Amp rolling.
  I can only tell you I feel that a Class A biased OPA627 gives me all that you are looking for, but I have *only* tried the Class A biased OPA627 and the stock Op Amp.


----------



## ZenErik

No issues with my USB M-Stage. It has an upgraded opamp 627, if that matters. Will soon be for sale! Since I got my T1 the other day I have had upgraditis.


----------



## PelPix

Loosen and tighten the screw on the bottom.  It's the toroidal transformer's mounting screw.


----------



## Oderi

Quote:


chicolom said:


> Quote:
> 
> What headphones and what gain are you using?  Something more like 11 o'clock would be good.
> 
> The M-stage shouldn't be hissing until ridiculously loud headphone & ear exploding volume levels.


 

  
  ATH-M50's, I just unboxed M-Stage and plugged it in so everything's default. One stupid question tho, how do I change the gain? I've seen the pictures about the gain settings but I have no clue where I am supposed to find switches like that; inside M-Stage?
  And yeah, decreasing the volume on uDac makes M-Stage's volume control more easily usable (since with uDac at maximum, turning M-Stage's volume knob 10 minutes can make the difference between almost unlistenable and slightly too silent) but also, when going past 12 o'clock, raises the hiss to annoying levels.
   
  It is plugged to an ordinary wall outlet.
   
  Is the suggestion about loosening and tightening the bottom screw directed to me and/or the guy with the similar problem with his USB version? Can someone confirm it might help?


----------



## BmWr75

The gain switches are on the bottom of my M-stage (non-USB DAC version).  There will be four switches,  two for each channel.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





oderi said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> Is the suggestion about loosening and tightening the bottom screw directed to me and/or the guy with the similar problem with his USB version? Can someone confirm it might help?


 


  Leave the screw alone, lossing and tightening it will do nothing for the hiss.
  It MAY only help if the transformer is mechanically vibrating, i.e. you can here the headphone amp vibrating when it is powered and you don't have your headphones on your head.


----------



## Oderi

Thanks for replies, found the manual for M-Stage this morning and checked the gain switches' location from it, needless to say I feel blind for not noticing them while checking what kind of screw the bottom screw was. Gain was set to default i.e. 0dB already, trying 10dB atm and no noticeable change in hiss, unsurprisingly.


----------



## Digital-Pride

Quote: 





oderi said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> ATH-M50's, I just unboxed M-Stage and plugged it in so everything's default. One stupid question tho, how do I change the gain? I've seen the pictures about the gain settings but I have no clue where I am supposed to find switches like that; inside M-Stage?
> ...


 

 The gain switches are on the bottom of the unit pictured here:
​  You only tighten and or loosen the bottom screw(for the torodial power transfomer) when you are experiencing excessive hiss like one of the previous posters.


----------



## HydronQc

Tried to unscrew and screw back the botom screw and swaped the op amp to stock and swap it back to class a mod.Still the same problem. rca works great but the usb input = noise/buzzy


----------



## egokun

Hello guys, I have 3 questions about the M-Stage.
   
   
  1) My current amp is a Heed CanAmp; for headphones I have Audio Technica ATH-AD2000 and Sennheiser HD558. Do you think the M-Stage would be better than the amp I have, and a good match for the HPs I have?
   
  2) Does the M-Stage make any audible noise when turned on with headphones connected? The CanAmp makes this ear-piercing *POP!*... and I don't really care for disconnecting the headphone each and every time I turn the thing on and off.
   
  3) Anyone can tell me the relative size of the two amps? Is the M-Stage smaller or bigger?
   
   
  Thanks.


----------



## Mad Max

AT's love the M-Stage.
 The M-Stage makes a soft pop when turning on, or even no noise depending on the opamp that you are using in it and your headphones' sensitivity.  In the case of your AD2k, I wouldn't worry about it.  =D

 Both the Canamp and M-stage use a standard 1/4" output, so it looks like the Canamp is consderably larger than the M-stage judging from pictures.

Canamp
M-Stage


----------



## unixdog

I have the newer USB model m-stage which appears to use a different casing than it's predecessors.
  What is the proper way to open this unit up in order to swap out an opamp?  I'm seeing (4) hex screws
  on the front and (4) small phillips on each of the corners in the rear.  (no screws on either side)  
   
  Once opened, I have a couple of LME49720NA opamps I recently ordered.  As far as swapping it out,
  is it just a simple matter of pulling out the stock chip with a pair of need nose pliers or gently prying it out
  with a small screw driver, and then installing the replacement chip?  (plug-n-play?)  Also, what is the
  best method for installing the replacement chip?  Can it be done entirely by hand?  Or should I use some
  needle nose pliers to line of the pins and then press down using my fingers?  Any guidance would be
  greatly appreciated.  Thanks.


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





unixdog said:


> I have the newer USB model m-stage which appears to use a different casing than it's predecessors.
> What is the proper way to open this unit up in order to swap out an opamp?  I'm seeing (4) hex screws
> on the front and (4) small phillips on each of the corners in the rear.  (no screws on either side)
> 
> ...


 
   

 To open the M-stage USB version case, remove the top 2 hex screws on both sides (with 2mm hex/allen wrench).  Then grab the top half of the case near the front face plate and pull/wiggle it up.  It connects to the bottom half with a  tongue & groove.
   
  I just wiggled/pulled out the stock opamp.  You may be able to do it all by hand, but I think I had to tug gently with needle nose pliers at one point.  Putting the new opamps in is easier.  I don't know how the LME49720NA connects, but it looks like it's a dip version which plugs in.  If you have two of them they go on an 2x1 adapter with 2x dip sockets on top.
   
   
  Also, apparently you have to line up all the notches indicators on the opamps and adapters to face towards the amps inputs:
  
   
  Quote: 





mad max said:


> That's right,* line up all the little notches* or kiss your headphones bye-bye.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## unixdog

Thanks Chicolom!  Just to clarify, it's only necessary to unscrew the top FRONT allen screws and nothing in the rear, correct?  Also, should one wait some period of time after powering off the amp before attempting to pull out the chip? (any concerns about the opamp socket still receiving power from the charged caps, etc.?). Thanks.


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





unixdog said:


> Thanks Chicolom!  Just to clarify, it's only necessary to unscrew the top FRONT allen screws and nothing in the rear, correct?  Also, should one wait some period of time after powering off the amp before attempting to pull out the chip? (any concerns about the opamp socket still receiving power from the charged caps, etc.?). Thanks.


 


  You take out 4 screws: the top 2 on the front, and the top 2 on the back.  Your just disconnecting the top half of the case from the bottom half.
   
  I don't know about the second question 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## Andre-

I just got my m-stage usb, but i got no usb cable with it. What kind of usb cable do i need for it?.


----------



## putente

If you're going to plug it to a normal USB computer port, you'll just need a regular USB A to B cable... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  Quote: 





andre- said:


> I just got my m-stage usb, but i got no usb cable with it. What kind of usb cable do i need for it?.


----------



## chicolom

If your listening with m-stage and your going to take a few minutes break in between some songs, is it better to leave the amp running or turn it off and on again between each song? 
   
  I thought it might be bad for it to be turned on and off several times in a 10 minute period Vs. leaving it running....


----------



## Guess?

I'd leave it running.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





unixdog said:


> Also, should one wait some period of time after powering off the amp before attempting to pull out the chip? (any concerns about the opamp socket still receiving power from the charged caps, etc.?). Thanks.


 


 Makes sure you turn the Matrix OFF.
  Make sure you unplug the AC power cord in the rear from the Matrix.
  It's not a bad idea to wait 2-5 minutes before pulling the Op Amp out.
  Make sure you don't have any static charge on you before you swap Op Amps. Try touching something Grounded (not something with voltage on it!) before you swap the Op Amps to bleed off any static charge you may have on you.  Static electricity can damage any Op Amp or IC.
  
  Quote: 





chicolom said:


> If your listening with m-stage and your going to take a few minutes break in between some songs, is it better to leave the amp running or turn it off and on again between each song?
> 
> I thought it might be bad for it to be turned on and off several times in a 10 minute period Vs. leaving it running....


 

 Leave it running, the amp probably sounds a bit better if you leave it warmed up.
  If you're not going to use it for an hour or so, turn it off.
  In addition, electronic equipment does not like to be turned ON and OFF and ON and OFF and ON and OFF.
  A lot of failures occur from turn on, turn off cycling.  This really something that most likely would show up after 5-10 years of use, i.e. increased long term reliability.
   
  Cheers!


----------



## LarsHP

I bought a Matrix M-Stage (with class A mod) for my K-701 and I didn't like it at all with my CD player. 
  The K-701 sounded thin in the bass and sharp in the treble, so I returned it.
   
  Two weeks ago I bought a Audio-gd Master-6 to drive my HiFiMan HE-6 (that combo sounds terrific by the way, but is much, much more expensive). Still having the K-701 around I plugged it into the single ended hp output of the Master-6 and wow! Now the treble was tamed and the bass was there - not overly so, but much more. The K-701 is a completely different animal - and yes, I was using the same CD player and interconnect cables.
   
  In other words: the K-701 not only benefits, but in my experience needs much more power, than one should think when looking at the sensitivity and impedance. If I should recommend anything, I would say look for headphone amps that has at least four times the output of the M-Stage, read: 1,5 watts in 62 Ohms. I haven't heard the Schiit Lyr, but it is only $ 445,- and outputs much more than that.


----------



## purrin

Quote: 





larshp said:


> I bought a Matrix M-Stage (with class A mod) for my K-701 and I didn't like it at all with my CD player.
> The K-701 sounded thin in the bass and sharp in the treble, so I returned it.
> 
> Two weeks ago I bought a Audio-gd Master-6 to drive my HiFiMan HE-6 (that combo sounds terrific by the way, but is much, much more expensive). Still having the K-701 around I plugged it into the single ended hp output of the Master-6 and wow! Now the treble was tamed and the bass was there - not overly so, but much more. The K-701 is a completely different animal - and yes, I was using the same CD player and interconnect cables.
> ...


 
   
  Could have less to do with power than just an amp with characteristics that mate well with it. Personally I'd never run the K701 out of the Matrix though I can understand why many people do. K701 sounded nice with good bass and tamed treble out of the DNA 2A3 and BA. Both those amps are flea powered compared to the Lyr or Master-6


----------



## kyoshiro

My Class-A modded Matrix M-Stage sounds quite good paired with my HD600s. It really opened up after I ran it for 2 days~ along.
  I also decided to change the power cable to a Furutech one (without an upgraded fuse but cryoed wattgate iec and MS UK Plug) and later on I will be putting it on an US power bar and swap this cable to the bar (along with fuse upgrade) and use my Viablue x-40 + furutech FI-11 gold iec + plugs. The first difference without burning in the cable was actually punchier bass, I haven't used the stock enough to see big differences but I will try that again once i burn in this furutech cable. 
  And yes I have been trying to demystify the differences made by power cables but haven't had any luck until this furutech cable (which costed me more money than the denko cable that I started out with)


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





purrin said:


> Could have less to do with power than just an amp with characteristics that mate well with it. Personally I'd never run the K701 out of the Matrix though I can understand why many people do. K701 sounded nice with good bass and tamed treble out of the DNA 2A3 and BA. Both those amps are flea powered compared to the Lyr or Master-6


 


  Yes,  I agree.  They probably just better amplifiers.
   
  This whole " the K70x need tons of power" is an urban legend.
  More than 200 mWatts is enough to destroy the K70x and your ears.
  200 mWatts is what manufacturer specifies as maximum power.


----------



## SleazyC

Still here and still dealing with the buzzing noise I get when listening out of my UM3x's. I didn't have a chance to play around with the amp during the holidays and now that that is out of the way I was wondering if anyone could let me know what tools are needed to get the screws off the amp and allow me to play around with the the innards.


----------



## LarsHP

chris j said:


> Yes,  I agree.  They probably just better amplifiers.
> 
> This whole " the K70x need tons of power" is an urban legend.
> More than 200 mWatts is enough to destroy the K70x and your ears.
> 200 mWatts is what manufacturer specifies as maximum power.



Well, I would think we should agree, but my experience tells me otherwise. 
The Master-6 hasn't the warm mids that the M-Stage has. It is more like neutral and clear, which probably most people would think won't be good synergy with a somewhat bright headphone. 

I am only posting here because I originally bought a M-Stage after reading in this thread and the K-701 thread, that the M-Stage has good synergy with that headphone. My experience is that it is true in terms of it's warm mids, but that the K-701 sounded thin in the bass and piercing sharp in the treble. My point here is also based on many HE-6 owners experience: that the headphone will play crazy loud with not much power, but will only sound balanced and have the bass level and impact it is capable of with much, much more power than to get it loud. My own example with my little portable amp, the Arrow, is telling the same story: it will make the HE-6 play much louder than I even dare to when on my head, but bass was thin.


----------



## Ndug15

Hey all!
   
  was wondering if anyone else has this problem...the blue light indicating my matrix m stage is powered on does not light up even when my amp IS powered on...note the amp is working perfectly fine, but it would just be nice to be able to see the light turn on when it IS on, so I don't accidentally leave it on when I leave my computer...some insight into this problem would be great!
   
  Thanks, 
   
  NDug15


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





larshp said:


> Well, I would think we should agree, but my experience tells me otherwise.
> The Master-6 hasn't the warm mids that the M-Stage has. It is more like neutral and clear, which probably most people would think won't be good synergy with a somewhat bright headphone.
> I am only posting here because I originally bought a M-Stage after reading in this thread and the K-701 thread, that the M-Stage has good synergy with that headphone. My experience is that it is true in terms of it's warm mids, but that the K-701 sounded thin in the bass and piercing sharp in the treble. My point here is also based on many HE-6 owners experience: that the headphone will play crazy loud with not much power, but will only sound balanced and have the bass level and impact it is capable of with much, much more power than to get it loud. My own example with my little portable amp, the Arrow, is telling the same story: it will make the HE-6 play much louder than I even dare to when on my head, but bass was thin.


 

 Hmmmmm, very strange.
  From a purely technical point of view, it makes no sense. But if it sounds right............OTOH, the Master 6 may have more power but I would guess it is also a higher quality amp.
   
  What amp do you recommend for the K701?  The Master 6?  (Edit:  Ooops, went back and re-read your old post)
  Your comments also make think that is why I don't resoundingly prefer my DT880/600s with the Matrix M Stage.  The DT880s sound good thru the Matrix, but sometimes I think the midrange is "too much". Usually I use a vacuum tube OTL amp with the DT880s.


----------



## unixdog

For those of you that own the new USB model m-stage.  Do you notice two red LEDs lit through the 2nd
  vent opening on the right side? (on the PCB)  I'm not experiencing any issues but I was curious if this
  is normal or indicative of some problem.  Seeing red LEDs lit doesn't give me a warm and fuzzy.  I haven't
  yet had a chance to crack open the case and have a closer look.  Everything is working wonderfully so I'm hoping
  this is normal operation.  Thanks.


----------



## Ndug15

Quote: 





unixdog said:


> For those of you that own the new USB model m-stage.  Do you notice two red LEDs lit through the 2nd
> vent opening on the right side? (on the PCB)  I'm not experiencing any issues but I was curious if this
> is normal or indicative of some problem.  Seeing red LEDs lit doesn't give me a warm and fuzzy.  I haven't
> yet had a chance to crack open the case and have a closer look.  Everything is working wonderfully so I'm hoping
> this is normal operation.  Thanks.


 

 i don't have the usb model m stage but i do see those red LEDs through the vent, so I would assume this is normal since we are both experiencing it!


----------



## unixdog

Quote: 





ndug15 said:


> i don't have the usb model m stage but i do see those red LEDs through the vent, so I would assume this is normal since we are both experiencing it!


 


  Interesting.  I guess I thought only the USB model had the cooling vents.  Anyhow, that's good to know.  Thanks for the reply.


----------



## EinZweiDrei

my m stage just came in today. it looks different compare to the ones here on head fi according to a few screen shots.
 mine have 8 holes on each side. is it a newer version?

 and also is it better to max out volume and adjust m stage to listening volume
 or adjust pc to listening volume and max m stage volume


----------



## kyoshiro

Quote: 





einzweidrei said:


> my m stage just came in today. it looks different compare to the ones here on head fi according to a few screen shots.
> mine have 8 holes on each side. is it a newer version?
> 
> and also is it better to max out volume and adjust m stage to listening volume
> or adjust pc to listening volume and max m stage volume


 

 there was a new version for 2010 afaik cuz I emailed Tam asking about it before buying mine from him.
  As for PC listening volume.... set PC to 1/2 imo then adjust with m stage


----------



## phandrew

I'm thinking of getting the M-Stage as my 1st proper amp but need peoples opinion of whether the following setup will work really well

 Source - Foobar with FLAC
  DAC - Cambridge Audio DACmagic
  Amp - Matrix M-Stage with BB OPA627 chip
  Headphone - Beyerdynamic DT150 and DT880 05' 600ohm


----------



## JuicyBruce

Quote: 





> The first difference without burning in the cable was actually punchier bass, I haven't used the stock enough to see big differences but I will try that again once i burn in this furutech cable.
> And yes I have been trying to demystify the differences made by power cables but haven't had any luck until this furutech cable (which costed me more money than the denko cable that I started out with)


 

 How far do you live from the power station? Im not sure that a few feet of good quality cabling is going to make much difference to electricity that's travelled miles, in and out of buildings in the lowest quality wire the power distributors could get away with. 
  Sorry.. off topic. Was just visualising the path it would have to travel to get to my house. My best analogy was hiking days through a sewer to take the last two steps on red carpet.


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





sleazyc said:


> Still here and still dealing with the buzzing noise I get when listening out of my UM3x's. I didn't have a chance to play around with the amp during the holidays and now that that is out of the way I was wondering if anyone could let me know what tools are needed to get the screws off the amp and allow me to play around with the the innards.


 

 Are you sure it's not a ground loop?
  For the case screws ues a small Phillips #1? screwdriver and a 3mm hex key for the transformer screw.
  I think Matrix puts on too much paint near the transformer screw and so removing the hex screw on the bottom of the transformer and then putting it back in several times scratches away the excess paint which improves metal-to-metal contact at that spot and allows the transformer to ground itself properly.

  
  Quote: 





unixdog said:


> For those of you that own the new USB model m-stage.  Do you notice two red LEDs lit through the 2nd
> vent opening on the right side? (on the PCB)  I'm not experiencing any issues but I was curious if this
> is normal or indicative of some problem.  Seeing red LEDs lit doesn't give me a warm and fuzzy.  I haven't
> yet had a chance to crack open the case and have a closer look.  Everything is working wonderfully so I'm hoping
> this is normal operation.  Thanks.


 

 Those LEDs are part of the power supply.
  All versions have them.
   


  Quote: 





einzweidrei said:


> my m stage just came in today. it looks different compare to the ones here on head fi according to a few screen shots.
> mine have 8 holes on each side. is it a newer version?
> 
> and also is it better to max out volume and adjust m stage to listening volume
> or adjust pc to listening volume and max m stage volume


 

 Yes, the newest version has vents.
   
  Either way that you wish to adjust volume is fine.


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





juicybruce said:


> How far do you live from the power station? Im not sure that a few feet of good quality cabling is going to make much difference to electricity that's travelled miles, in and out of buildings in the lowest quality wire the power distributors could get away with.
> Sorry.. off topic. Was just visualising the path it would have to travel to get to my house. My best analogy was hiking days through a sewer to take the last two steps on red carpet.


 

 More like the stock power cable included with equipment is much worse than all that wire leading from the power station, lol!
   
  I don't know what's the deal - some equipment is noticeably affected by the quality of the power cable, in my experience, but the with the M-Stage, I fail to hear a difference.  Another head-fier said that a well-made power supply isn't affected by the power cable's quality (assuming that you don't plug in something "worse" than the stock cable), so I'm guessing he's right.  I like this aspect of the M-Stage - perhaps I may be able to learn some kind of tweak(s) from the M-Stage's design that I can perform on other equipment in order to "immunize" them against power cables.  Even the power filter that my M-Stage is plugged into seems to have no effect on the sound, but my DACs sound noticeably better overall with the filter.
   
  Yes, I know that power cables making a difference hasn't even been proven to begin with, not that we care about that or anything.


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





einzweidrei said:


> and also is it better to max out volume and adjust m stage to listening volume
> or adjust pc to listening volume and *max m stage volume*


 


  I theory it's preferable to maximize PC volume (both DAC and Music Player) and adjust to listening volume with the M-stage, because digital attenuation divides the bits and can cause resolution loss.  Whether you can actually hear a difference though..... I don't know...
   
   
  EDIT:  Just saw you wrote to "max m-stage volume".  I wouldn't recommend that.  That sounds pretty scary, as you could blow up some headphones/ears if your not careful with the PC volume.


----------



## putente

For those asking about the lastest M-Stage version, you can check it here: http://www.matrix-digi.com/english/cpshow.asp?pid=7


----------



## Riverback

Could be just a bad stock cable or corrosion in the socket/lead =/
  
  Quote: 





mad max said:


> More like the stock power cable included with equipment is much worse than all that wire leading from the power station, lol!
> 
> I don't know what's the deal - some equipment is noticeably affected by the quality of the power cable, in my experience, but the with the M-Stage, I fail to hear a difference.  Another head-fier said that a well-made power supply isn't affected by the power cable's quality (assuming that you don't plug in something "worse" than the stock cable), so I'm guessing he's right.  I like this aspect of the M-Stage - perhaps I may be able to learn some kind of tweak(s) from the M-Stage's design that I can perform on other equipment in order to "immunize" them against power cables.  Even the power filter that my M-Stage is plugged into seems to have no effect on the sound, but my DACs sound noticeably better overall with the filter.
> 
> Yes, I know that power cables making a difference hasn't even been proven to begin with, not that we care about that or anything.


----------



## kyoshiro

forgot to say that I live in Hong Kong thus our power plugs are all fused which may also be one of the reasons, nonetheless i'm still burning in the m-stage and the cable, I will be bringing it down to my local Jaben to try it out with their US socket and really see if theres a difference. Nonetheless, still experimenting!


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





phandrew said:


> I'm thinking of getting the M-Stage as my 1st proper amp but need peoples opinion of whether the following setup will work really well
> 
> Source - Foobar with FLAC
> DAC - Cambridge Audio DACmagic
> ...


 

 I can only say that I think the Matrix M Stage sounds great with the DT880 600 ohm, but I do have a very slight preference for using a La Figaro 336C tube amp, but to really get the 336 going you have to do some tube rolling, spend more $$$, so it's not a fair comparison.    Bottom line is for $250.00 I think the "M" sounds great.  Can't honestly comment on the other components.

  
  Quote: 





ndug15 said:


> i don't have the usb model m stage but i do see those red LEDs through the vent, so I would assume this is normal since we are both experiencing it!


 


 Yes the silly little lights are normal, they are part of the power supply circuit and will both light when power supply is working, i.e. M Stage is on.
  
  Quote: 





ndug15 said:


> Hey all!
> 
> was wondering if anyone else has this problem...the blue light indicating my matrix m stage is powered on does not light up even when my amp IS powered on...note the amp is working perfectly fine, but it would just be nice to be able to see the light turn on when it IS on, so I don't accidentally leave it on when I leave my computer...some insight into this problem would be great!
> 
> ...


 

 Apparently the Lovely Cube is almost the same as the M Stage.
  The link is to a Lovely Cube schematic.
  How are your DIY skils?
  The blue light circuit is powered by the power supply and consists of an LED and a resistor.
  Bad solder joint? Burned out LED maybe?
  Try asking Matrix for assistance, maybe they'll send you a new LED?
http://www.head-fi.org/t/501046/the-lovely-cube-headphone-amp-lehmann-black-cube-linear-clone/15
   

 Quote:


larshp said:


> Well, I would think we should agree, but my experience tells me otherwise.
> The Master-6 hasn't the warm mids that the M-Stage has. It is more like neutral and clear, which probably most people would think won't be good synergy with a somewhat bright headphone.
> I am only posting here because I originally bought a M-Stage after reading in this thread and the K-701 thread, that the M-Stage has good synergy with that headphone. My experience is that it is true in terms of it's warm mids, but that the K-701 sounded thin in the bass and piercing sharp in the treble. My point here is also based on many HE-6 owners experience: that the headphone will play crazy loud with not much power, but will only sound balanced and have the bass level and impact it is capable of with much, much more power than to get it loud. My own example with my little portable amp, the Arrow, is telling the same story: it will make the HE-6 play much louder than I even dare to when on my head, but bass was thin.


 

 I should point out that I'm not trying to be argumentative, and I've never heard any Audio GD equipment, so this is just my opinion...................but the Master 6 costs 6 times as much, I would hope it is a more refined amp than the M Stage? The power increase may be nothing more than coincidence?


----------



## EinZweiDrei

Quote: 





chicolom said:


> I theory it's preferable to maximize PC volume (both DAC and Music Player) and adjust to listening volume with the M-stage, because digital attenuation divides the bits and can cause resolution loss.  Whether you can actually hear a difference though..... I don't know...
> 
> 
> EDIT:  Just saw you wrote to "max m-stage volume".  I wouldn't recommend that.  That sounds pretty scary, as you could blow up some headphones/ears if your not careful with the PC volume.


 


  yea i thought so too. just want to make sure since im a complete noob when it comes to amps. also m stage is my first amp


----------



## francisdemarte

Quote: 





ndug15 said:


> i don't have the usb model m stage but i do see those red LEDs through the vent, so I would assume this is normal since we are both experiencing it!


 


  As others have stated that is normal. If the red makes you feel uneasy and easy fix is to different color LED "condom" on them. On the Lovely Cube they are green


----------



## LarsHP

[quote name="Chris J"

Quote:
I should point out that I'm not trying to be argumentative, and I've never heard any Audio GD equipment, so this is just my opinion...................but the Master 6 costs 6 times as much, I would hope it is a more refined amp than the M Stage? The power increase may be nothing more than coincidence?
[/quote]


My point is that power IS the important difference. If you read a post just before my original post about this, there is another head-fi'er stating the same thing concerning his experience with the also very powerful Schiit Lyr amp. The K-701 won't sound like a a HD650 out of a more powerful amp, but it will sound noticeably less bright. 

I think I have made my point now and I'll leave this thread and let you guys continue your talk.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





francisdemarte said:


> As others have stated that is normal. If the red makes you feel uneasy and easy fix is to different color LED "condom" on them. On the Lovely Cube they are green


 


 On my 6 month old M Stage the internal LEDs are green!  Maybe the red ones sound better!  LOL!
  The front one is blue.


----------



## chicolom

Interesting....I saw this on a blog about the lovely cube's temperature/heat...
  
  Quote: 





> > http://www.stekkie.com/?p=156





> "I noticed an interesting discussion about the heat of the Lovely Cube on the Head-Fi forum. Some users are worried about the high temperatures of some components of the Lovely Cube. Well, that is typical class A behaviour. The output transistors always have a current flowing through it, even without an audio signal (the output transistors never ‘turn off’). As a result, the amplifier is inefficient, draws a large amount of power and runs quite hot. The Lehmann and Lovely Cube act the same. According to the seller of the Lovely Cube the 4 output transistors (BD139/BD140) are at their best at a temperature around 70 °C and the 4 capacitors (470uF) around 50 °C. It works as designed and alterations to the design, to lower the temperature, are not advised.* Don’t try to make ventilation holes in the case for example. This will stop the heat traps from working.*"


 

  
  Sounds like the new M-Stages ^


----------



## Mad Max

More heat = higher THD from what I know.  I could not find even in the datasheets for those transistors whether or not 70 degrees centigrade is really the optimum, so it's just the seller that says so.  =\


----------



## EinZweiDrei

is it safe to leave the matrix m stage on 24/7? its probably not but i want to burn in my headphones ASAP.
 the longest time i left it on was for 10hrs. after 10hrs its gets as warm as room temperature.


----------



## Mad Max

It has been mentioned before in the thread, don't leave it on while not in use.  Apart from wasting electricity, heat is one of the main enemies of electronics.


----------



## EinZweiDrei

one last question. how much electricity does the m stage use

 nvmd found it. its <15 watts

 pretty much like a modem or router


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





chicolom said:


> Interesting....I saw this on a blog about the lovely cube's temperature/heat...
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like the new M-Stages ^


 


 Hey there,
  As far as the BD139/140 transistors running at 70 celsius goes (or any other transistors).................if the whole circuit is designed for 70 C, then you should not get more distortion than you would get at another temperature, but you would try to design to that operating temperature.  There's a reason why most computers have fans in 'em, keep the stuff cool.
  Anyway, yes, heat is the enemy of electronics, for example, the hotter the environment those power caps live in, the shorter their life. It can be very substantially shorten  Adding the vents was good idea.  I have an old, sealed M Stage, we'll see how long it lives...............
   
  Lars
  I really wasn't trying to be  argumentative, like I said, I've never heard an Audio GD or a Lyr.
  I've heard a coiple of big Woos.....................very, very nice sounding.


----------



## chicolom

Has anyone heard and compared the M-Stage and the Lovely Cube?  I know the M-stage is a modified BCL design while the Lovely cube is an actual clone (although still sounds different reportedly).


----------



## unixdog

I'm selling my m-stage if anyone is interested. (Latest USB model)  Less than 20 hours of use.  Stock configuration.  Upgraditis.  Shipping CONUS.  PM me if you're interested.


----------



## qib

Hello everybody! Still burning in the M-Stage USB version that i just got. Just a few questions,
   
  1) Would i risk anything by connecting the m-stage to a pair of cheap jbl computer speakers. Speakers impedence is 3 ohm. Not trying to improve the sound or anything, just wanted it as a one-stop audio source.
   
  2) Is there a page where i can view a pictorial on how to change the opamps? I've got the LM4562NA.
   
  3) What db setting is preferred for my 32ohm ath-es7 and my 300ohm dt150?
   
  Thank you!


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





qib said:


> Hello everybody! Still burning in the M-Stage USB version that i just got. Just a few questions,
> 
> 1) Would i risk anything by connecting the m-stage to a pair of cheap jbl computer speakers. Speakers impedence is 3 ohm. Not trying to improve the sound or anything, just wanted it as a one-stop audio source.
> 
> ...


 


 The M Stage IS NOT designed to drive loudspeakers..............3 ohms is too low a load for a little headphone amp.
   
  As for the dB setting, try 10 dB, if you have enough volume control range, then you are OK. .i.e you are between 10-2 o'clock
   
  EDIT:     do a search, use the "search this thread" link at the top of this page,   the information is in this thread somewhere......sorry I can't be more informative, unfortunately I'm rather pressed for time right now
sorry man........can't help you today with the LM4562A.............but I will be swapping in the same Op Amp tomorrow!  Should be nice


----------



## Xanthos

Just ordered a Matrix Cube DAC, along with an M-Stage with the Burr Brown OPA637AP Class A biasing mod. Should be a nice upgrade over my HTO Claro+ headphone out.


----------



## Majestyk

> I noticed an interesting discussion about the heat of the Lovely Cube on the Head-Fi forum. Some users are worried about the high temperatures of some components of the Lovely Cube.


 
   
  I bought the prebuilt LC, in 2010, and that thing had no air holes on it at all.  I was really surprised.  Maybe they do now.


----------



## arek

great review, probably will pick this amp up to power my HD650s.


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





majestyk said:


> I bought the prebuilt LC, in 2010, and that thing had no air holes on it at all.  I was really surprised.  Maybe they do now.


 


  Ya, I looked at the prebuilt "premium" lovely cubes and they look the same.  I sort of doubt it's changed. 
   
  I like the ventilated casing on the m-stage - after an hour or two it will still get warm, but never hot.  Seems like the ventilation would give more life to the internal components.  I also like the front faceplate and silkscreen on the m-stage better.


----------



## EinZweiDrei

for some reason to my ears they wont sound right until left on for at least 8 hours.
 at 4 hours it feels a little lukewarm. at 6 hrs it cooled downed completely. at 8 hrs it sounded good.
 at 9hrs it gets a little lukewarm again, but not as lukewarm as at 4hrs.
 this happens every time i restart. so i usually leave it on the whole day and turn it off when i sleep.
 mine is the air vented version.


----------



## ZenErik

Welp, my SPL Auditor arrived today and works great. So as nice as the M-Stage is, it's gotta go! Gonna miss you. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Will continue using it as a DAC until it's sold, or when my Musical Fidelity MA1DAC A arrives. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  The M-Stage is really an amazing value, and it has served me very well for the short time I have owned it. Can't imagine many amps having better bang for the buck. Power to the all the M-Stage people.


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





zenerik said:


> Welp, my SPL Auditor arrived today and works great. So as nice as the M-Stage is, it's gotta go! Gonna miss you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


  Damn! That thing is a monster!!


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





zenerik said:


> Welp, my SPL Auditor arrived today and works great. So as nice as the M-Stage is, it's gotta go! Gonna miss you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


  any chance you may do a comparison review?


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *Chris J* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> any chance you may do a comparison review?


 

  
  X2!    But please be gentle on that cute little m-stage.  It looks like that Auditor could eat it alive.


----------



## Guess?

Quote: 





chicolom said:


> X2!    But please be gentle on that cute little m-stage.  It looks like that Auditor could eat it alive.


 

 X3! Looks yummy.


----------



## FOXY

How the Matrix m-stage and AKG K240MK2 sound?


----------



## Zombie_X

The Auditor is a considerable step up and a lot more neutral sounding. It makes the M-Stage sound very colored IMO (from when I have owned the M-Stage). The sound is more expansive and the overall neutrality is really something else. The Auditor has more extension throughout the band and bass reaches really deep and the treble soars.
   
  The M-Stage is a great amp for those on a budget. It's a great all rounder amp that caters to all impedance phones. The Auditor is meant for high impedance but does well with most low impedance headphones.
  
  Quote: 





chicolom said:


> X2!    But please be gentle on that cute little m-stage.  It looks like that Auditor could eat it alive.


----------



## qib

Is anyone experiencing imbalance issues? I'm hearing louder on my right side.


----------



## EinZweiDrei

Quote: 





qib said:


> Is anyone experiencing imbalance issues? I'm hearing louder on my right side.


 


  theres 2 gain switches set them both as same setting


----------



## ZenErik

Quote: 





zombie_x said:


> The Auditor is a considerable step up and a lot more neutral sounding. It makes the M-Stage sound very colored IMO (from when I have owned the M-Stage). The sound is more expansive and the overall neutrality is really something else. The Auditor has more extension throughout the band and bass reaches really deep and the treble soars.
> 
> The M-Stage is a great amp for those on a budget. It's a great all rounder amp that caters to all impedance phones. The Auditor is meant for high impedance but does well with most low impedance headphones.


 

 I would agree this but am also sure I am not really hearing the extent of the differences. Still stuck on the M-Stage DAC until my new DAC arrives. 
   
  But I can definitely hear the bass being tighter and more clarity in the treble. Better extension on both ends of the spectrum.
   
  I have not tried the Auditor with IEMs or other low impedance cans and probably never will, but I have heard the results are usually not very pleasant.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





zenerik said:


> I have not tried the Auditor with IEMs or other low impedance cans and probably never will, but I have heard the results are usually not very pleasant.


 


  I suspect the Auditor has a fairly high output impedance: the specs say it outputs more power into high impedance 'phones than into low impedance 'phones which is a symptom of a high output impedance amp.


----------



## Zombie_X

Yes, it has a 10Ohm output impedance which is quite high. So in turn the headphones used must be around 80Ohms or more. I think the amp still sounds nice with most low impedance headphones though. IEM on the Auditor sound like poo as the bass gets so overblown, but on bass light IEM's it fills them in more. And said IEM's are sensitive so they shouldn't get much clipping, from what I've heard on my end.
   
  ZenErik:
  The M-Stage USB DAC is lacking in fact. The included DAC is good for the price but your new M1DAC should just blow it out of the water. The M-Stage USB DAC is nothing special in comparison and is about the same as the DAC that was included on my X-CANV8P. There won't be a comparison once you get the new DAC. The T1 should then sound quite nice with the new DAC. 
   
  Now guys, the last time I heard the M-Stage was about 4 months ago so take my impressions with a grain of salt. Has there been any more revisions to this model? If there was another revision I might be interested if said revision improved the sound quality. 
   
  The M-Stage has come a long way since it first came out and is now a very ncie contender. I would say it's value is right up there with $400 amps. I think it's that good. The first versions of this amp looked like a DIY build but now the amp looks really ice and well built. Parts and performance are also improved. Really it's a great value. It's around 1/4th the price of the Black Cube Linear and has nearly the same performance IMO. 
  
  Quote: 





chris j said:


> I suspect the Auditor has a fairly high output impedance: the specs say it outputs more power into high impedance 'phones than into low impedance 'phones which is a syptom of a high output impedance amp.


----------



## qib

Quote: 





einzweidrei said:


> theres 2 gain switches set them both as same setting


 


  Fixed. Thanks!


----------



## project86

Quote: 





zombie_x said:


> The M-Stage USB DAC is lacking in fact. The included DAC is good for the price but your new M1DAC should just blow it out of the water. The M-Stage USB DAC is nothing special in comparison and is *about the same as the DAC that was included on my X-CANV8P*. There won't be a comparison once you get the new DAC. The T1 should then sound quite nice with the new DAC.


 


 Wow, that bad? I would have assumed a TAS1020B to PCM1793 design would be a noticeable improvement over a basic PCM2706 all-in-one implementation. I do agree that the jump to a real dedicated DAC will remove the bottleneck.


----------



## Zombie_X

Well it's been a while I've heard the M-Stage and I don't use the DAC in my X-CANV8P anymore but I thought it sounded similar. I'll have to give it a try again.
  
  Quote: 





project86 said:


> Wow, that bad? I would have assumed a TAS1020B to PCM1793 design would be a noticeable improvement over a basic PCM2706 all-in-one implementation. I do agree that the jump to a real dedicated DAC will remove the bottleneck.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





zombie_x said:


> Yes, it has a 10Ohm output impedance which is quite high. So in turn the headphones used must be around 80Ohms or more. I think the amp still sounds nice with most low impedance headphones though. IEM on the Auditor sound like poo as the bass gets so overblown, but on bass light IEM's it fills them in more. And said IEM's are sensitive so they shouldn't get much clipping, from what I've heard on my end.
> 
> Now guys, the last time I heard the M-Stage was about 4 months ago so take my impressions with a grain of salt. Has there been any more revisions to this model? If there was another revision I might be interested if said revision improved the sound quality.


 

  
  If the output impedance is 10 Ohms then it still does not explain the low power output into low impedance headphones.
  The Matrix has an output impedance of either 5 or 10 ohms depending on what spec sheet you use. Perhaps they revised it somewhere along the way.
   
  Based on the photos I have seen the amp design is the same as it was 6 months ago (pre USB input).
  They did add some much needed cooling vents to the side.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

Anyone have the power output of the M Stage at 600ohms? Trying to get a baseline...

E9 is 80mw at 600ohm
HDP is 96mw at 600ohm
C-2.2 is 200mw at 600ohm

Still looking for Asgard and M Stage specs.

Edit: The M Stage pushes 100mw@600ohms it seems.

Guess I will end up with the Audio GD C-2.2. I just REALLY don't wanna order it, lol.


----------



## HaVoC-28

Quote: 





mad lust envy said:


> Anyone have the power output of the M Stage at 600ohms? Trying to get a baseline...
> E9 is 80mw at 600ohm
> HDP is 96mw at 600ohm
> C-2.2 is 200mw at 600ohm
> ...


 


  My C2.1 worked wonderfully with my recently gone 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 DT-880-600 ohms , and C2.1 is better than M-stage with the same opamp ( at the time compared it with my K702) .


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





chris j said:


> If the output impedance is 10 Ohms then it still does not explain the low power output into low impedance headphones.
> *The Matrix has an output impedance of either 5 or 10 ohms *depending on what spec sheet you use. Perhaps they revised it somewhere along the way.
> 
> Based on the photos I have seen the amp design is the same as it was 6 months ago (pre USB input).
> They did add some much needed cooling vents to the side.


 
   
  Going off matrix-digi.com, which should be the official page, output impedance is 5 ohms:
   
   
  Technical Specifications Technical Details
 Input impedance: 47 KOhms
 Frequency response: 10Hz (-0.3dB) to 35 kHz (-1dB)
 SNR:> 95dB at 0dB gain
 Distortion: <0.001% at 6mW/300 Ohms
 Output power: 200mW/300 Ohms, 400mW/60 Ohms
 Output impedance: line out 60 Ohms,* phones out 5 Ohms*


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





mad lust envy said:


>





> Anyone have the power output of the M Stage at 600ohms? Trying to get a baseline...
> E9 is 80mw at 600ohm
> HDP is 96mw at 600ohm
> C-2.2 is 200mw at 600ohm
> ...


 

 +1 for the M Stage driving DT880 600 Ohm 'phones
  in addition, I have a pair of archaic 2,000 Ohm Sennheiser HD424s,  the M Stage has no problem driving those either.
  I don't listen at really high volumes.
   
  Quote: 





			
				HaVoC-28 said:
			
		

> My C2.1 worked wonderfully with my recently gone
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


 The C-2.1 doesn't seem to use the Op-Amp to drive the headphones, judging by their website
  The Matrix uses a discrete transistor buffer between the Op-Amp and the headphone jack
   
  I'm going to have to try some Audio GD stuff this year.......................


----------



## HaVoC-28

Quote: 





chris j said:


> The C-2.1 doesn't seem to use the Op-Amp to drive the headphones, judging by their website
> The Matrix uses a discrete transistor buffer between the Op-Amp and the headphone jack
> 
> I'm going to have to try some Audio GD stuff this year.......................


 

  
  C2 , C2.1 , C2.2 , have two mods RCA and ACSS , in ACSS no OP-AMP , and only work with Audio GD DAC with ACSS , in RCA mode it use : OPA604 stock , exactly for what i don't know ^^ , final buffer peraphs .
   
  Coloration / tonaly  with opa moon on both unite ==> very similar one , but on C2.1 it was more refined ^^ , detail  /transparancy / clarity .  With both you could really taste the OPA moon flavor , so i guess that it's used has final buffer in both but i can be totaly wrong , i am not a tech


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





chris j said:


> ...
> The C-2.1 doesn't seem to use the Op-Amp to drive the headphones, judging by their website
> The Matrix uses a discrete transistor buffer between the Op-Amp and the headphone jack
> ...


 

 Both use a diamond output buffer.  The C2 additionally has the ACSS tech before the buffer.


----------



## project86

Quote: 





zombie_x said:


> Well it's been a while I've heard the M-Stage and I don't use the DAC in my X-CANV8P anymore but I thought it sounded similar. I'll have to give it a try again.


 


  I thought the USB version of M-Stage just came out. When did you hear it? Maybe it has been around longer than I thought.


----------



## EinZweiDrei

how well does the m stage drive the k701s anyway?


----------



## Guess?

Quote: 





project86 said:


> I thought the USB version of M-Stage just came out. When did you hear it? Maybe it has been around longer than I thought.


 

  
  Saw it about two months ago on coolfungadget's website, the certificates are dated 13 October 2011. Mine is on the way now.


----------



## Zombie_X

I heard it about 3-4 months back. I thought the USB was OK but nothing special. Though as I said it's been a while so my memory may be playing tricks on me.
  
  Quote: 





project86 said:


> I thought the USB version of M-Stage just came out. When did you hear it? Maybe it has been around longer than I thought.


----------



## project86

Ok I get it. I'm just late to the party! I thought it just came out in the last month.


----------



## Guess?

Quote: 





project86 said:


> Ok I get it. I'm just late to the party! I thought it just came out in the last month.


 


  John, you were the first to the party =), look at your thread - 163 pages so far.


----------



## fishbulb95

Waiting for mine to arrive, flying across the Pacific at the moment.  I ordered through Amazon since I had a few gift cards to spend.   Since I am in the US, I was concerned whether they would include the proper power supply 110-120V compared to 220-240V (Tam Audio will let you choose).  There was no option to choose, the Amazon store description stated (110-120V or 220-240V).  So I sent a message and received a reply in 2-3 hours, saying they will include the 110-120V version. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (Awesome Service!!)
   
   
  I am currently using the AKG Q701 paired with a Hifiman EF2A (Stock Tubes).  I'm really hoping this amp will make a difference in quality, larger soundstage, clear highs, fuller sound.  I'm liking the headphones, but I'm currently eyeballing the DT990 600 ohm.  Although from what I've read this amp pairs nicely with the x70x series, so it may just feel like a new headphone to me.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





fishbulb95 said:


> Waiting for mine to arrive, flying across the Pacific at the moment.  I ordered through Amazon since I had a few gift cards to spend.   Since I am in the US, I was concerned whether they would include the proper power supply 110-120V compared to 220-240V (Tam Audio will let you choose).  There was no option to choose, the Amazon store description stated (110-120V or 220-240V).  So I sent a message and received a reply in 2-3 hours, saying they will include the 110-120V version.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


 We would love to hear your impressions of the EF2A vs. Matrix M Stage!
  I have a pair of Q701 and DT880/600 Ohm.
  I find that the neutrality of the DT880 is a nice compliment to the Q701s.
  When I bought my DT880s I compared them to DT990s, frankly I had a very hard time choosing between the two!


----------



## Mitroche

Hi,
   
  I have an AKG K701 and actually hesitating between M-Stage and Lovely cube.
  Do you have an idea of which one will sound the best without making any mods except changing the OpAmp ?
   
  Thanks a lot for your answers.


----------



## qib

Getting ready to change the opamps on mine. It could be helpful if someone detailed all the mods that could be made on this amp in one page or thread as have been done in the older days of head-fi. Anyone with the expertise willing to do that? Those new to the m-stage would forever be indebted to you!


----------



## kyoshiro

would installing http://bursonaudio.com/burson_opamp.htm into the matrix m-stage be overkill? lol


----------



## Mad Max

More like over-priced underkill.


----------



## Majestyk

> How the Matrix m-stage and AKG K240MK2 sound?


 
   
  I have the original AKG K240 Sextett headphones and they sound great with the M-Stage.  I have to say, however, that my old 70's Yamaha receiver sounds better.  But I like using the M-Stage to A/B (compare) components and different CD masterings, which is why I bought it.
   
  Keep in mind, that for the moment my M-Stage only has the stock opamp and AC cord.


----------



## Chris J

Why don't you use the Yammy to compare components and CD masterings if it sounds better?
  Are you implying that the Matrix sounds more accurate or analytical?
  Just curious.


----------



## egokun

Quote: 





mad max said:


> AT's love the M-Stage.


 

  
  Good Lord, they do


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

I'm considering buying the Matrix M Stage from Tam Audio that is already pre-modded to OPA627AP Class A biasing.

http://tamaudio.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=36&product_id=111

It will be used with my DT990/600 and D7000.

Not sure yet, as I'm still considering the Audio-GD C-2.2, but not sure if the premium will be worth it. That and I just hate the Audio GD website and ordering method. They need to revamp that site...


----------



## BournePerfect

Quote: 





mad lust envy said:


> I'm considering buying the Matrix M Stage from Tam Audio that is already pre-modded to OPA627AP Class A biasing.
> http://tamaudio.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=36&product_id=111
> It will be used with my DT990/600 and D7000.
> Not sure yet, as I'm still considering the Audio-GD C-2.2, but not sure if the premium will be worth it. That and I just hate the Audio GD website and ordering method. They need to revamp that site...


 


   I'd go for the C-2.2. I've owned both amps, and I believe the AGD is a better amp, although both would serve you well with those headphones. I had the m-Stage with the DT 990s at one point, and it wasn't anything special imo, but then again I wasn't a fan of the 990 anyway. The AGD will be more neutral, with a very smooth sound signature that would help with those bright headphones you have.  Even my 2900s were tamed quite nicely by it. It also throws a deeper soundstage (and wider) than the m-Stage. Bass response is exceptional, mids are very silky smooth, and yet the amp is one of the most detailed SS amps you can get for under a grand imo-which would scale very well as you improve your source. Hope this helps.
   
  -Daniel


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

Cool, I saw a new challenger: the Burson HA-160DS, but I don't think it powers the 600ohms as well as the C-2.2.

Guess I'll just hold out a little longer...


----------



## JuicyBruce

Quote: 





mad lust envy said:


> Not sure yet, as I'm still considering the Audio-GD C-2.2, but not sure if the premium will be worth it.


 

 I went from an M-Stage to C-2.2 and with an Audio-GD DAC and with the ACSS connection its a no brainer. 
  RCA into the C-2.2 is a reasonable upgrade from an M-Stage. More neutral and transparent. Quite a bit more dynamic. A bit less forgiving with K702 than the M-Stage.
  Is the premium worth it?
  In short *definitely *if you already have an Audio-GD dac. And *possibly *depending on your phones and personal taste if you dont.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

My phones will definitely be the DT990/600 and (later on) the Denon D7000.

The Audio GD DACs... which one is better, the NFB 2.1 or 3.1? And do they come with the ACSS connections, or do I have to buy that seperately? Also, if I want to feed the amp an untouched signal... what setting would that be on the NFB dacs? I have no use for oversampling/filter settings and whatever else the NFB is capable of.

Also, if I'm going to mainly use the ACSS connection, I won't NEED the upgraded op-amps for the C-2.2, right? I would probably still get Moon op-amps and use the RCA connection for the DT990, and ACSS for the D7000...

I know this is off topic, but the Audio GD threads aren't exactly popular like this one, and you guys have experience with them.


----------



## BournePerfect

Quote: 





mad lust envy said:


> My phones will definitely be the DT990/600 and (later on) the Denon D7000.
> The Audio GD DACs... which one is better, the NFB 2.1 or 3.1? And do they come with the ACSS connections, or do I have to buy that seperately? Also, if I want to feed the amp an untouched signal... what setting would that be on the NFB dacs? I have no use for oversampling/filter settings and whatever else the NFB is capable of.
> Also, if I'm going to mainly use the ACSS connection, I won't NEED the upgraded op-amps for the C-2.2, right? I would probably still get Moon op-amps and use the RCA connection for the DT990, and ACSS for the D7000...
> I know this is off topic, but the Audio GD threads aren't exactly popular like this one, and you guys have experience with them.


 

 The 2.1 is the better dac, as it uses a better transformer (R-Core iirc) and some other better parts. Just leave the filter settings at stock if you don't wanna change anything-they should be the most neutral. The ACSS connections are built into the units-you can buy the ACSS cords for an extra $20-ish from them. [I will sell you mine for $15 shipped if you want-I have an extra pair ] If you are using the ACSS, then the opamps are bypassed-those would only be used when using RCA cables. I never heard the Moon opamps, but since your headphones are already very bassy (and colored lol), I feel that you might have the best results with just the ACSS, as those phones with sound even better with this very smooth, but neutral amp imo.
   
  -Daniel


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

My bad, I meant cords. So neither the amp or dacs come with ACSS cords? I'll keep you in mind.

Do you know what they mean by Dynamic, for the Sun op-amps? That's vague at best. I know Earth is neutral, Moon is warm/smooth/tube-like (I guess I wanted it to soften the treble on the DT990, though I don't want bassier, so I guess I'll live with the treble, which is fine)... My guess for the Sun is brighter, focusing on mids and treble, which is a no-no for both those cans... as they are both treble happy.

Thanks for the aid. Hope the Matrix owners don't get too mad. I'm sure the C-2.2 is the amp for me, now I'm just wanting to make sure what DAC to get, though I'm sure either one will be fine.


----------



## BournePerfect

Quote: 





mad lust envy said:


> My bad, I meant cords. So neither the amp or dacs come with ACSS cords? I'll keep you in mind.
> Do you know what they mean by Dynamic, for the Sun op-amps? That's vague at best. I know Earth is neutral, Moon is warm/smooth/tube-like (I guess I wanted it to soften the treble on the DT990, though I don't want bassier, so I guess I'll live with the treble, which is fine)... My guess for the Sun is brighter, focusing on mids and treble, which is a no-no for both those cans... as they are both treble happy.
> Thanks for the aid. Hope the Matrix owners don't get too mad. I'm sure the C-2.2 is the amp for me, now I'm just wanting to make sure what DAC to get, though I'm sure either one will be fine.


 


  There's a couple of threads that go in depth about the different opamps somewhere around here. It seemed the Sun was the least popular for some reason, and would indeed make a terrible match on paper anyway for those headphones. . A ton of people bought the Earth, but that would be mainly if you aren't using ACSS, since that would be more transparent anyway. It's only $20 to buy them, so try the Moon if you feel the need/desire. Keep in mind that AGD gear (especially the opamps) require a ton of burn in by most accounts (mine included). And no need to apologize to the Matrix guys lol, that is truly a great bang for the buck amp, and one of the most popular on this site. Hey, I bought it twice lol. But for a incremental price increase, the C-2 series should definitely be considered high end, despite it's price. Headfier Oqvist here preferred it over the $1200 Violectric V200, which was another amp I was considering at one point. So, hop on the AGD train, and come to know why everyone thinks their products are an absolute steal for the most part-and prepare to eat your words about the E-9!  j/k 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  -Daniel


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

Lol. I do plan on doing a lot of A/B-ing with the E9. I can appreciate the difference between the E9 and Schiit Lyr, though that was SS vs Hybrid. SS vs SS is really what I wanted to compare. 

I think I may get the Earth op-amps over the Moon, since I may end up plugging in various sources aside from the NFB 2.1/3.1...


----------



## JuicyBruce

_deleted. everything was answered by the time i hit submit_


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

Thanks a lot Bruce.

My timing couldn't be any worse, as Chinese New Year = delay in shipping + me not knowing what's going on with the contract at my job = not being able to order ASAP. :rolleyes:


----------



## Sganzerla

I don't have experience with Audio-GD amps, but I can say for sure that my Matrix M-Stage with Earth OPA and the capacitor mod (from the Zero DAC mod thread) is way better than with Earth OPA stock, that is better than any of the class A biasing OPAs I've tried.
   
   This is not my first time saying it, but I think anyone should at least try Earth HDAM, it takes quite a long time to "burn", but is very worth.


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





bourneperfect said:


> There's a couple of threads that go in depth about the different opamps somewhere around here. It seemed the Sun was the least popular for some reason, and would indeed make a terrible match on paper anyway for those headphones. . A ton of people bought the Earth, but that would be mainly if you aren't using ACSS, since that would be more transparent anyway. It's only $20 to buy them, so try the Moon if you feel the need/desire. Keep in mind that AGD gear (especially the opamps) require a ton of burn in by most accounts (mine included). And no need to apologize to the Matrix guys lol, that is truly a great bang for the buck amp, and one of the most popular on this site. Hey, I bought it twice lol. But for a incremental price increase, the C-2 series should definitely be considered high end, despite it's price. Headfier Oqvist here preferred it over the $1200 Violectric V200, which was another amp I was considering at one point. So, hop on the AGD train, and come to know why everyone thinks their products are an absolute steal for the most part-and prepare to eat your words about the E-9!  j/k
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Without sufficient psu bypassing, Sun can be very fatiguing with a funky "roller-coaster" FR which can exacerbate headphones' treble peaks.  Definitely needs the Russian PIOs or ceramic and tantalum caps like I added to mine in order to balance out the sound.  Then it is non-fatiguing, even with bright headphones.  It is even brighter without burn-in, ouch!
   
  Edit: Well, now here's an idea: anyone set on ordering HDAMs from Audio-gd should ask Kingwa to swap out the stock bypass caps on each HDAM that you order with much larger values, I suppose that that should help.  You will also get better sound than those who ordered the opamps straight up with no modifications.  =D


----------



## phandrew

I wonder how the M-stage holds up to Little Dot III tube amp.
   
  Does anyone have both of these? How do they compare?


----------



## josliver

After reading all the information from this thread and trying to choose the most efficient set of changes that can have positive impact in my m-stage (but keeping it as simple as possible), I plan to:
    
  - Replace input fuse with high quality one
  - Check DC offset of my several sources and decide if I remove input caps Blue caps C22 e C23 and little Red C21 e C24 and replace by shunt wire
  - Replace OpAmp PSU caps bypass (two red WIMAs in between opamp power caps) with 160V Vishay MKP 1837 0.01uF
  - Replace the output 4 PS caps bypass (WIMA MKP 0.022uF) with 160V Vishay MKP 1837 0.01uF.
  - OpAmp resistors R33/ R36 Bypass with 50V Kemet Ceramic 56pF
  - Replace output resistors with 10R 1W Allen Bradley Carbon
   
     After this , try several opamps types / configurations with:
  - Psu bypassing on opamp, using 50V Kemet Ceramic 1000pF and 160V Vishay MKP 1837 0.1uF    film cap.  across pins 4 & 8
  - Class A 3.9KOhm polarization or not
   
    I would appreciatte to have your comments regarding my options and aditional changes you suggest I should try. Thank you.


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





josliver said:


> After reading all the information from this thread and trying to choose the most efficient set of changes that can have positive impact in my m-stage (but* keeping it as simple as possible*), I plan to:
> 
> - Replace input fuse with high quality one
> - Check DC offset of my several sources and decide if I remove input caps Blue caps C22 e C23 and little Red C21 e C24 and replace by shunt wire
> ...


 

 Wow, you have a strange definition of "simple"


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





> - Replace the output 4 PS caps bypass (WIMA MKP 0.022uF) with 160V Vishay MKP 1837 0.01uF.


 
   
  You mean two of those Vishays in place of each WIMA?  They're a bit less than half the capacitance of those WIMAs, you might want to try sticking close or matching the stock values.
   
   
  Quote: 





> - OpAmp resistors R33/ R36 Bypass with 50V Kemet Ceramic 56pF


 
   
  That's for LM4562 only (and I mentioned *58*pF at that).  For other opamps you will want smaller or larger values of capacitance depending on their gain bandwidth, otherwise you will get roll-off and I'm not sure what other stuff.
  The pattern might be (guessing from having played around with a couple of opamps): gain bandwidth of opamp in MHz + 3 = number of pF of capacitance that you want those caps to be.
  So LM4562: 55 + 3 = 58pF
  ADA4627-1: 19 + 3 = 22pF
  OPA827: 22 + 3 = 25pF
  OPA627: 16 + 3 = 19pF


----------



## nullpo

Quote: 





josliver said:


> I would appreciatte to have your comments regarding my options and aditional changes you suggest I should try. Thank you.


 


  I feel it's very worthwhile to upgrade the electrolytics.  I replaced the big caps with Mundorf MLPI, the power rail with Elna Cerafine and the opamp rail with Elna Silmic II (330uf/25V).  Be careful not to use super low ESR caps on the power rail as I guess it can cause problems.
   
  My favorite opamps so far are OPA602BP, OPA209 and OPA1641.  I don't think any of them need special attention (biasing, bypass, etc).


----------



## Majestyk

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Why don't you use the Yammy to compare components and CD masterings if it sounds better?
> Are you implying that the Matrix sounds more accurate or analytical?
> Just curious.


 

 Because the Yamaha is vintage ('78) and it doesn't have two AUX inputs.  I could put one CD player in the AUX and another in the Tape but I'm willing to bet they don't sound exactly the same.  I also don't want to stress the old receiver out by constantly pushing the source/tape button on and off.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





majestyk said:


> Because the Yamaha is vintage ('78) and it doesn't have two AUX inputs.  I could put one CD player in the AUX and another in the Tape but I'm willing to bet they don't sound exactly the same.  I also don't want to stress the old receiver out by constantly pushing the source/tape button on and off.


 

 The two inputs should sound identical.
  Why would they sound different?


----------



## GamerOne

I'm thinking about getting an OPA Moon for my M-stage as I've read its supposed to be warm sounding and have a very good synergy with the K701's. But does that thing really even fit in the M-stage? It looks huge


----------



## Mikesin

Currently I have the OPA627AU (Class A Biased) in my M-stage, now I see theres also the OPA637AP (Class A Biased) on Tam Audio, it costs significantly more than the one I currently have, is there any differences and what are they? (Is it night and day different?)


----------



## headhog

Is there any videos of the Matrix m-stage on the web i cant seem to find any? It would be cool and so awesome if any owner here would make one
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.A video is always integrate part in my decision purchasing.


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





headhog said:


> Is there any videos of the Matrix m-stage on the web i cant seem to find any? It would be cool and so awesome if any owner here would make one
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


  A video of an amp?  What is there to see in a video that you can't see in the pictures?


----------



## headhog

Quote: 





chicolom said:


> A video of an amp?  What is there to see in a video that you can't see in the pictures?


 


  The pictures are fine and can see that the  amp looks great.But i'm a person who likes to physically touch the product that i'm interested in buying.I have read to 20 on this thread and most of you say it's a well build amp and suspect most of you speak the truth.But the reality is i dont know any of you and you dont know me.This is a item were i cant just go to my local best buy or guitar center to have a closer look at no so a video for me is the next best thing.


----------



## kyoshiro

wheres the fuse?! o.o


----------



## qib

A pictorial guide would be amazing for us newbies wanting to mod!
  Quote: 





josliver said:


> After reading all the information from this thread and trying to choose the most efficient set of changes that can have positive impact in my m-stage (but keeping it as simple as possible), I plan to:
> 
> - Replace input fuse with high quality one
> - Check DC offset of my several sources and decide if I remove input caps Blue caps C22 e C23 and little Red C21 e C24 and replace by shunt wire
> ...


----------



## Mikesin

Anyone? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
  Quote: 





mikesin said:


> Currently I have the OPA627AU (Class A Biased) in my M-stage, now I see theres also the OPA637AP (Class A Biased) on Tam Audio, it costs significantly more than the one I currently have, is there any differences and what are they? (Is it night and day different?)


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





mikesin said:


> Currently I have the OPA627AU (Class A Biased) in my M-stage, now I see theres also the OPA637AP (Class A Biased) on Tam Audio, it costs significantly more than the one I currently have, is there any differences and what are they? (Is it night and day different?)
> 
> Anyone?


 
   
  I assume it's a newer version that perhaps replaces the OPA627...?


----------



## kyoshiro

Quote: 





chicolom said:


> I assume it's a newer version that perhaps replaces the OPA627...?


 

 apparently its nearly the same and doesnt gain any improvements unless you're at higher gain from what i have been reading.


----------



## Tribbs

From the OPA627/637 datasheet here http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/opa627.pdf
   
  OPA627AP Dual Inline Package (DIP)
   
  OPA627AU Small Outline Integrated Circuit (SOIC)
   
  According to the datasheet there is no difference.
  Ask on what basis is there a difference?
   
  It looks like they are using only one channel of the dual OPA627AP opamp using two OPA627APs.  Why?  Based on what measured data?
   
  If you want a "better" opamp go to the OPA627BP.
  If you really want to go to town get the OPA627BM or SM!
  Be prepared to open your wallet.


----------



## Majestyk

Quote: 





chris j said:


> The two inputs should sound identical.
> Why would they sound different?


 

  
  The inputs on the Yamaha COULD be different volume wise or even hiss/noise wise.  I just haven't checked it out yet.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





majestyk said:


> The inputs on the Yamaha COULD be different volume wise or even hiss/noise wise.  I just haven't checked it out yet.


 


 Technically, they _should_ be identical.


----------



## DivergeUnify

Dumb question: is this usb version DAC sufficient, or will cause a bottleneck?  I assume it would work just fine?...


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





divergeunify said:


> Dumb question: is this usb version DAC sufficient, or will cause a bottleneck?  I assume it would work just fine?...


 


  It works fine, but they're are better dacs.  Probably none for $30 though (maybe the FiiO D3).


----------



## DivergeUnify

So my 325is and hd650s should sound pretty good through usb?


----------



## Mad Max

Even better with a better DAC.


----------



## Mikesin

So there is no difference of my cheaper OPA627AU versus the OPA627AP and OPA637AP?
 Also upgrading to the OPA627BP, would it be a significant difference that would be notice-able? 

  
  Quote: 





tribbs said:


> From the OPA627/637 datasheet here http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/opa627.pdf
> 
> OPA627AP Dual Inline Package (DIP)
> 
> ...


----------



## DivergeUnify

Quote: 





mad max said:


> Even better with a better DAC.


 


  i plan on getting a better DAC in time.  Will this amp, paired with a proper DAC be able to drive other phones such as some of the orthos?   I might as well and try to be future proof while I'm at it
   
  *******it I've only started browsing again for about 3 weeks and I'm already about to pull the trigger on some new gear


----------



## genclaymore

I just bought a Matrix M-Stage V2 from another user on these forums, Cant wait for it to get here.The amp I had before it was the Fiio E9. Gonna like the fact I have more room for op-amp rolling. Without having to put a flash light in my mouth while changing op-amps. Like I did with the E9.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





mikesin said:


> So there is no difference of my cheaper OPA627AU versus the OPA627AP and OPA637AP?
> Also upgrading to the OPA627BP, would it be a significant difference that would be notice-able?


 


 Gimme 24 hours or so, you've got me curious.
  Don't worry, I really know how to read Op Amp datasheets.
  I suspect the difference is packaging only. Nothing more. Probably no audible difference.


----------



## Tribbs

Quote: 





mikesin said:


> So there is no difference of my cheaper OPA627AU versus the OPA627AP and OPA637AP?
> Also upgrading to the OPA627BP, would it be a significant difference that would be notice-able?


 
   
  Unless you have a pair of infamous _Golden Ears_, I would say no.
   
  Look, the OPA627 vintage was released in 1990.  The design is over 22 years old!
   
  For about $15 you can put together a pair of stellar LME49990MA (2011 vintage) opamps on a Brown Dog adapter.
  (On the same page for $33 they will build it for you.)
   
_"My top three devices for serious analog audio work are LME49990, OPA1611 and OPA211. LME49990 is the only one capable of true 24-bit analog performance when powered with +/- 15 V supply (S/N = 159 dB,THD = 146 dB). As the THD of LT1028 is 96 dB, it is "only" good for 16-bit systems. NE5534A is even less linear, THD = 93 dB." _(see comments)


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





mikesin said:


> So there is no difference of my cheaper OPA627AU versus the OPA627AP and OPA637AP?
> Also upgrading to the OPA627BP, would it be a significant difference that would be notice-able?


 
   
  The OPA627B and OPA637B series have slightly better DC Offset Voltage and Input Bias Current, really not too useful in audio applications.
   
  B series has slightly better noise characteristics, I really doubt we would hear a difference.
  The A series and the B series (627A vs. 627B) are the same design, they would be selected by the manufacturer for low DC offset voltage and low input bias current.
   
  The other important audio characteristics are unchanged:
   - Slew Rate
   - Distortion
   - Bandwidth
   
  So I don't see why the difference would actually be noticeable.
   
  As Tribbs pointed out, the other letters refer to packaging.
   
  If you want to try something different, try the LM4562MA.  You will only need one for your M Stage.


----------



## Oderi

I'm the guy who had a problem with hiss a couple weeks back.
   
  I thought I had the gain set to 0 dB. Turns out it was set to 20 dB since in the pictures that are in the manual white parts are the switches (quite logical seeing as they're white in reality). Just wanted to report this here in case anyone else is dumb enough to have the same problem. No hiss whatsoever with 0 gain.


----------



## headhog

Quote: 





oderi said:


> I'm the guy who had a problem with hiss a couple weeks back.
> 
> I thought I had the gain set to 0 dB. Turns out it was set to 20 dB since in the pictures that are in the manual white parts are the switches (quite logical seeing as they're white in reality). Just wanted to report this here in case anyone else is dumb enough to have the same problem. No hiss whatsoever with 0 gain.


 


 Not very reassuring you hear hiss at 20 db.


----------



## Oderi

Quote: 





headhog said:


> Not very reassuring you hear hiss at 20 db.


 


  Isn't that then headphone-dependent? I'm using M-50's with Windows & uDac volumes set to max; with 20 dB gain anything past ~7:30 was unlistenably loud anyway. At 0 I can go to 9:30 or 10.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





oderi said:


> I'm the guy who had a problem with hiss a couple weeks back.
> 
> I thought I had the gain set to 0 dB. Turns out it was set to 20 dB since in the pictures that are in the manual white parts are the switches (quite logical seeing as they're white in reality). Just wanted to report this here in case anyone else is dumb enough to have the same problem. No hiss whatsoever with 0 gain.


 

 Yep,
  I did that a few times.
  It took me a while to get used to it even though I know that 20 dB is louder, 0 dB is quieter.
  Personally I've settled on 10 dB, but occasionally set it to 18 dB when using 600 ohm Beyers or 2,000 ohm Sennheisers.
  I've never tried 0 dB.


----------



## genclaymore

Which gain setting should I set for DT880 pro-250s.


----------



## Satellite_6

The lowest gain setting that gets them loud enough.


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





genclaymore said:


> Which gain setting should I set for DT880 pro-250s.


 

 You will probably be setting the M-Stage to 10 gain.


----------



## headhog

How long does the seller usually take to provide a  tracking number?
   
  Thanks


----------



## genclaymore

Quote: 





mad max said:


> You will probably be setting the M-Stage to 10 gain.


 


  When I got my Matrix M-Stage from a user here, it was aleady on 10 gain, but I didnt know it. As the label under the amp was wrong. I in up putting it on 18 gain thinking I was putting it on 10.


----------



## ByAnyMeanz

Will an OPA627 A-biased from a MStage work with an Audio GD NFB5 ?
  The Audio GD also uses the OPA2134 for Amplification.
   
  I would like to try it as i got no Sun, Earth, Moon or other opamp for rolling neither experience with OPA Soundcharacteristics
   
*@Chris J*
  What effect does the LM4562MA have ?
  I need a real good opamp, neutral, detailed but not boring or cold..


----------



## Mad Max

OPA627 will work but it is not neutral.  With NFB-5, it would be best to go with opamp bypass mode.  Any opamp will just color the sound and reduce detail to some extent.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





byanymeanz said:


> Will an OPA627 A-biased from a MStage work with an Audio GD NFB5 ?
> The Audio GD also uses the OPA2134 for Amplification.
> 
> I would like to try it as i got no Sun, Earth, Moon or other opamp for rolling neither experience with OPA Soundcharacteristics
> ...


 


 I'm not good at describing sound but I'll try................
  I prefer the LM4562 over the OPA627 (class A and non Class A) and the stock amp because it gives me a bit more clarity, a bit more openness, slightly less mud. I think it just sounds "right".
  I think if you are looking for neutral and detailed you will like the LM4562.
   
  I usually listen at 10 dB gain.
  I find with 0 dB gain, with some very dynamic CDs I have to crank the volume up to about 3 o'clock to get a reasonable volume out of my Q's.
  Other than that, 0 dBs is very good.  
  Avoid 18 and 20 dB.  I've had a change of heart, the more I listen to it, the less I like it, even with my Beyer DT880 600 ohms!  Weird, 18 and 20 dBs sound thin. 





   
  Hats off my fellow Head Fi-ers for turning me on to 0 dB and turning me off 18 and 20 dB 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
   
  I'll shut up now.............


----------



## Zombie_X

I don't hear difference in OP amps at all. I tried many varieties in my Cmoy and none of them changed the sound. So My verdict stands that OP amps don't do anything to the sound.


----------



## Frank I

I would think changing them does  something but me I dont like modding gear. i will also say this owning the original Matrix and the V2 the first amp is much better. it was way more dynamic and had great bass slam and it was super with my D7000 but the V2 I did not get that same feeling with thus I sold it.  Has anyone else owned both the original and the V2? If so what are your thoughts on the two units. I liked the massive power supply on the first amp.


----------



## chicolom

Quote:


chris j said:


> I usually listen at 10 dB gain.
> I find with 0 dB gain, with some very dynamic CDs I have to crank the volume up to about 3 o'clock to get a reasonable volume out of my Q's.
> Other than that, 0 dBs is very good.


 
   
  I use 10dB.  Can you switch gain with the amp still on?  I thought the manual said to shut it off when switching gain...

  
  Quote: 





zombie_x said:


> I don't hear difference in OP amps at all. I tried many varieties in my Cmoy and none of them changed the sound. So My verdict stands that OP amps don't do anything to the sound.


 

  
  I noticed some differences after swapping opamps on my m-stage.


----------



## Zombie_X

I don't know man. As long as the OP amp in question is within normal specifications then it should do nothing to the sound. I think it has to be a placebo as out of the 10 or so ones I tried there was no audible changes.
   
  I have a friend who know this kind of stuff and he said that they should do nothing to sound as long as their specs are right on, but if they are under spec they can alter and distort the sound. Also if the OP amp is not designed for audio use it can alter the sound if palced in the signal path.
  
  Quote: 





chicolom said:


> I noticed some differences after swapping opamps on my m-stage.


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





zombie_x said:


> I don't hear difference in OP amps at all. I tried many varieties in my Cmoy and none of them changed the sound. So My verdict stands that OP amps don't do anything to the sound.


 

 I take it your cmoy's imaging is as good as your Auditor and Roc, no?


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





zombie_x said:


> I don't know man. As long as the OP amp in question is within normal specifications then it should do nothing to the sound. I think it has to be a placebo as out of the 10 or so ones I tried there was no audible changes.
> 
> I have a friend who know this kind of stuff and he said that they should do nothing to sound as long as their specs are right on, but if they are under spec they can alter and distort the sound. Also if the OP amp is not designed for audio use it can alter the sound if palced in the signal path.


 

 (NwAvGuy?)  Well, I was a little underwhelmed with the stock opamp (OPA2134) in the M-stage in the soundstage department.  I also thought the mids sounded a bit congested.  The detail sounded similar to my E9.  The impressions I got as soon as I put the OPA602BP were "_Thats_ _more like it_" when I heard the soundstage open up.  It sounded more neutral the congestion in the mids was gone and the treble detail was better.
   
  Those are my _impressions_.  I can't measure anything though.  I don't think you can measure soundstage and imaging anyways?
   
  Does anyone know what would be the safest way to A-B compare opamps in the M-stage?  With the case apart: listen to one, shut the m-stage down, swap opamps and power it back up?  There were lots of static electricity warnings on the opamp packaging.   I wouldn't want to damage the amp or opamps anyway


----------



## Zombie_X

No, nowhere near the same. But if there were difference in sonics you would still hear them. It's just my opinion anyways. I was just stating I've heard no difference. I know DAC chips can sound different as Wolfson DAC chips tend to sound warmer. But a DAC chip and a OP amp are different.
   
  I also don't appreciate the sarcasm. I can't tell if you're poking fun or not.
  
  Quote: 





mad max said:


> I take it your cmoy's imaging is as good as your Auditor and Roc, no?


 
   
   
  No, never even talked to the guy. The guy I spoke of is my friend Jacob. He's been in engineering and electronics for 7 years. I trust his word more than anyone on these types of things. Granted I do the same thing and praise gear but I can't see how a $2 OP amp will sound any better or worse than a $10, to give an example. Maybe I'm too closed minded but generally I'm pretty open minded. 
   
  I'm sure they can have a different sound if the amp is designed around one type of OP amp or even how the whole layout of the circuit is. That is one possibility. It could also be how the amp interacts with said OP amp, such as how tubes sound different.
   
  Anyways I don't want to start a debate or anything, was just stating my opinion and I think it's best to drop it here. I have some pretty strict views on components and the last thing I want to do is open that can of worms.
  
  Quote: 





chicolom said:


> (NwAvGuy?)  Well, I was a little underwhelmed with the stock opamp (OPA2134) in the M-stage in the soundstage department.  I also thought the mids sounded a bit congested.  The detail sounded similar to my E9.  The impressions I got as soon as I put the OPA602BP were "_Thats_ _more like it_" when I heard the soundstage open up.  It sounded more neutral the congestion in the mids was gone and the treble detail was better.
> 
> Those are my _impressions_.  I can't measure anything though.  I don't think you can measure soundstage and imaging anyways?
> 
> Does anyone know what would be the safest way to A-B compare opamps in the M-stage?  With the case apart: listen to one, shut the m-stage down, swap opamps and power it back up?  There were lots of static electricity warnings on the opamp packaging.   I wouldn't want to damage the amp or opamps anyway


----------



## chicolom

Fair enough.
   
  Zombie, while your here, do you think the M-stage is sufficient enough for T1s?


----------



## Zombie_X

Yes most definitely. Since the T1's are much higher in sensitivity they require much less power than a normal 600Ohm headphone would require. I would estimate them as needing the same amount of power as the 250Ohm DT models would. They are easily driven much louder than the other 600Ohm headphones at the same volume. They also get louder than the 250Ohm beyers do a the same volume. 
  
  Quote: 





chicolom said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> Zombie, while your here, do you think the M-stage is sufficient enough for T1s?


----------



## genclaymore

The problem is that not all people have the same ears, just because you don't notice it. Do not mean every one doesn't. What one person doesn't notice, another person does. Its not placebo, it just you simply cant hear the differences between the op-amps, I not making a insult or any thing. I have no problems with hearing the difference between op-amps,I don't have to think about it. I just hear it right away and swap it out,Maybe my ears are sensitivity to changes in sound more then those who's aren't.  If I didn't notice it, I wouldn't have started rolling op-amps all those many years ago.
   
  I tried too many op-amp combination's to say that my brain is tricking me because it Def not.


----------



## Zombie_X

True true the brain and ears do play a part in this. And no insult was taken at all.
  
  Quote: 





genclaymore said:


> The problem is that not all people have the same ears, just because you don't notice it. Do not mean every one doesn't. What one person doesn't notice, another person does. Its not placebo, it just you simply cant hear the differences between the op-amps, I not making a insult or any thing. I have no problems with hearing the difference between op-amps,I don't have to think about it. I just hear it right away and swap it out,Maybe my ears are sensitivity to changes in sound more then those who's aren't.  If I didn't notice it, I wouldn't have started rolling op-amps all those many years ago.
> 
> I tried too many op-amp combination's to say that my brain is tricking me because it Def not.


----------



## Derrik86

Hi,
   
  I received my M-STAGE USB DAC yesterday..I have connect it with usb on my Mac Book and when I listen music from youtube...I have on a fastidious white Noise high-volume! WHY???
   
  When I listen mp3 on Macbook, Audio CD or when I work In DAW I don't have problems!!
   
  Thanks


----------



## Chris J

Try setting gain to 0 dB.
   
  I know that *some* of these YouTube videos have _awful_ sound.  Have you tried diferent videos?


----------



## Derrik86

Yes, but 240p don't have problems!! 360p - 480p - 760p have noise!! I think that it's a connection problem...


----------



## Chris J

Just my opinion, but I usually listen to YouTube on cheap headphones..........Sennheiser PX 100 ii because they roll off the nasty treble.   Sometimes I use the PX 100 ii bad sounding MP3 files and bad sounding iTunes files.
   
  I'll have to try 240P - 360P - 480P and 720P tonight to see if I have the same troubles in Canada!


----------



## Tribbs

When I watch YouTube at high-res (usually 720p or higher here) I almost always must pause the video and let the entire video load up into the computer's memory/buffer.  Then I'll press play and enjoy perfectly streamed video/audio.
   
  Those Sennheiser PX-100's are excellent portable/pocket cans


----------



## headhog

So i finally got my matrix m stage the sound definitely has a higher definition and clarity.Just one thing i'm not to sure about is setting gain levels.I have the bottom gain selectors set at 10db which i've been trying with my portable devices iphone ipad ds and sana clip i set the vol on my portables to 50 or 60% the vol knob on the matrix is set to one o'clock.Is this normal i thought i would get a much more significant amount of gain at eight or nine o'clock from m-stage?
   
  Thanks


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





zombie_x said:


> Yes most definitely. Since the T1's are much higher in sensitivity they require much less power than a normal 600Ohm headphone would require. I would estimate them as needing the same amount of power as the 250Ohm DT models would. They are easily driven much louder than the other 600Ohm headphones at the same volume. They also get louder than the 250Ohm beyers do a the same volume.


 


 I think you mean less voltage, not less power.
  i.e. the 600 ohm T1 needs less voltage than a 250 ohm DT for the same volume???
   
  Personally, I don't hear massive differences between Op Amps, I think it is very subtle. Worthwhile, but subtle.......just my opinion.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





headhog said:


> So i finally got my matrix m stage the sound definitely has a higher definition and clarity.Just one thing i'm not to sure about is setting gain levels.I have the bottom gain selectors set at 10db which i've been trying with my portable devices iphone ipad ds and sana clip i set the vol on my portables to 50 or 60% the vol knob on the matrix is set to one o'clock.Is this normal i thought i would get a much more significant amount of gain at eight or nine o'clock from m-stage?
> 
> Thanks


 
  If you want a lot of gain, try setting the gain to 18 or 20 dB.   However:  A lot of M Stage owners don't like the sound of 18 and 20 dBs of gain.  They think it sounds too thin.

 Nothing wrong with running the Matrix volume at 50-60%
  Sounds like normal operation.
  Some guys swear by running the M at 0 dB gain for maximum sound quality.    You would then run the volume at closer to 60-80% which is still cool.
  Don't confuse the setting of the volume control or the settings of the gain switches with maximum power available or on tap.  The M Stage has enough power to destroy most cans. 
   
  Congrats on your new purchase!


----------



## genclaymore

Also the label on the underside of your Matrix M-Stage might be wrong, like it was for me. Wheres 10gain switch setting is actually 18 gain while 18 gain dip switch settings was actually 10 gain


----------



## headhog

Yes i was just reading another thread about that.
   
  Will experiment with the dip switchs tomorrow morning.
   
  Thanks guys much appreciated.


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Nothing wrong with running the Matrix volume at 50-60%
> Sounds like normal operation.
> Some guys swear by running the M at 0 dB gain for maximum sound quality.    You would then run the volume at closer to 60-80% which is still cool.
> Don't confuse the setting of the volume control or the settings of the gain switches with maximum power available or on tap.  The M Stage has enough power to destroy most cans.


 


  Is it bad to mess with the DIP switches while the amp is on? 
   
  The manual says:  "To set the amplifier, toggle the DIP switches of both channels to proper position accordingly, while the headphone amplifier power is turned off."
   
  Also, would a 10 dB gain with volume set to 11 o'clock be better for amp life than 0 dB with volume cranked to 2 o'clock?  Would the latter cause more heat/wear and tear on the internals?


----------



## kyoshiro

sudden high voltage electric surge on components always bad


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





chicolom said:


> Is it bad to mess with the DIP switches while the amp is on?
> 
> The manual says:  "To set the amplifier, toggle the DIP switches of both channels to proper position accordingly, while the headphone amplifier power is turned off."
> 
> Also, would a 10 dB gain with volume set to 11 o'clock be better for amp life than 0 dB with volume cranked to 2 o'clock?  Would the latter cause more heat/wear and tear on the internals?


 

 I've toggled the DIP switches with power ON. but I always turn the volume down.
  But it's probably better to turn the power OFF first.
   
  To answer your second question:
  I can't hear much difference between 0 and 10, so I normally set the gain to 10 just in case the Op Amp goes into oscillation at 0 dB. The only way to check for oscillation is to connect an oscilloscope to the output.   If the amp is NOT oscillating then 0 or 10 would make no difference to wear and tear.


----------



## Chris J

Has anyone ever tried the M Stage with any Grado headphone models?​  ​ I would be curious to read your impressions, 'cos I would like to get a pair of Grados this month.​  ​ Thanks.​  ​


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





chris j said:


> To answer your second question:
> I can't hear much difference between 0 and 10, so I normally set the gain to 10 just in case the Op Amp goes into oscillation at 0 dB. The only way to check for oscillation is to connect an oscilloscope to the output.   If the amp is NOT oscillating then 0 or 10 would make no difference to wear and tear.


 

 I'm using 2x OPA602BP and they say they are "unity gain stable", but they're also on an adapter which might affect things.


----------



## Guess?

Someone wanted to see the thing on video... done, for anyone who wants to look at the Matrix, I made an unboxing video.


----------



## putente

Nice video! Thanks...


----------



## spongeworthy

How's the DAC on the matrix? Is it worth getting?
  
  Quote: 





guess? said:


> Someone wanted to see the thing on video... done, for anyone who wants to look at the Matrix, I made an unboxing video.


----------



## liamstrain

My recollection is for a $30 dac, it is very good. You can obviously get better ones, but not anywhere close to the price. So if you're spending another $150, get an HRT Music Streamer II... if you just want a functional basic dac without an investment and to have an all-in-one with your m-stage. It's fine.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





chicolom said:


> I'm using 2x OPA602BP and they say they are "unity gain stable", but they're also on an adapter which might affect things.


 


 I agree, all you need is some stray capacitance in the wrong place and you get oscillation at 100 kHz, or 200 kHz or ??? kHz or who knows where. Your Op Amp runs hot as hell and one day it craps out. Hopefully you don't slowly fry your cans.  Probably more important in power amps and tweeters. 
  So:
  I usually just play it safe and set gain to 10 dB.


----------



## Zombie_X

Yeah I meant voltage. The T1 are easier to drive than the HD600 is for sure.
  
  Quote: 





chris j said:


> I think you mean less voltage, not less power.
> i.e. the 600 ohm T1 needs less voltage than a 250 ohm DT for the same volume???
> 
> Personally, I don't hear massive differences between Op Amps, I think it is very subtle. Worthwhile, but subtle.......just my opinion.


----------



## headhog

Quote: 





guess? said:


> Someone wanted to see the thing on video... done, for anyone who wants to look at the Matrix, I made an unboxing video.


 

  Nice vid last month i was searching for somthing like this.All i had to go on was some pics and words at least now new buyers will have somthing more to look at.
   
  Spoon is awesome


----------



## Guess?

Quote: 





putente said:


> Nice video! Thanks...


 





   
  Quote: 





spongeworthy said:


> How's the DAC on the matrix? Is it worth getting?


 

      ---------->-->-->
  Quote: 





liamstrain said:


> My recollection is for a $30 dac, it is very good. You can obviously get better ones, but not anywhere close to the price. So if you're spending another $150, get an HRT Music Streamer II... if you just want a functional basic dac without an investment and to have an all-in-one with your m-stage. It's fine.


 

 100% agree!
   
   
  Quote: 





headhog said:


> Nice vid last month i was searching for somthing like this.All i had to go on was some pics and words at least now new buyers will have somthing more to look at.
> 
> Spoon is awesome


 

 Thanks, that's exactly why I made the video, hope it helps someone.
   
  And here is the replacing op-amps video:


----------



## putente

Wow, thanks, *Guess?*!!! This last video is even better!


----------



## Chris J

Yes,  the last video will help a lot of M fans!


----------



## Guess?

I'm glad you liked it, that was my point, to make an useful video for all M-stage fans and newcomers. Cheers, guys!


----------



## Chris J

You should post it in "Articles"


----------



## ACDOAN

Quote: 





guess? said:


> I'm glad you liked it, that was my point, to make an useful video for all M-stage fans and newcomers. Cheers, guys!


 


  By replacing thr OPA2134 with the mono 2xLME41710NA , whats the improvement in SQ ? Does it make the M-Stage sound less dark as I was told  ?
   
  The mono OPAMP has six pins ( three on each side) where on the board, I see 8 holes ( four on each side). Does it matter what order the new OpAmp  pins go in? Looks like he plugged the new Opamp into the first top three holes.


----------



## Guess?

Quote: 





acdoan said:


> By replacing thr OPA2134 with the mono 2xLME41710NA , whats the improvement in SQ ? Does it make the M-Stage sound less dark as I was told  ?
> 
> The mono OPAMP has six pins ( three on each side) where on the board, I see 8 holes ( four on each side). Does it matter what order the new OpAmp  pins go in? Looks like he plugged the new Opamp into the first top three holes.


 

 I don't know how exactly the sound improves, but the fact is that it's better to my ears, I like it even more than 2xOP627bp. They have *8 pins*.


----------



## Chris J

Just my opinion, but the effects of Op Amp rolling in the M are subtle.
  It will still sound like a Matrix M Stage.
  But I do prefer the LM4562 over the OPA627.  A little bit more clarity. A bit more open.


----------



## Xymordos

49710HA sounds more smooth compared to the 627sm. Also more emotions are portrayed in the vocals. 627sm have dry vocals.


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Just my opinion, but the effects of Op Amp rolling in the M are subtle.
> It will still sound like a Matrix M Stage.


 

  
  x2
   
  I actually did some A-B testing between my 2x OPA602BP and the stock OPA2134 last night, and they sound _very_ similar.  I doubt I could pick one out in a double blind test.
   
  When I first got my M-stage I only used the stock opamp for about half an hour to an hour before switching in the OPA602BP.  It's possible the amp went through some burn-in of it's own that affected my perception of the sound differences


----------



## ACDOAN

Can someone relate the " dark" of the M-stage to 2 channel amp. Is it like B.A.T amp? a bit colour, syrupy dark....


----------



## headhog

Thanks again for another great vid Guess? it really helps out a noob like me


----------



## Guess?

You're welcome


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





acdoan said:


> Can someone relate the " dark" of the M-stage to 2 channel amp. Is it like B.A.T amp? a bit colour, syrupy dark....


 


  ...I'm not sure what your asking?....


----------



## spongeworthy

I'm about to pull the trigger. Is the OPA627AP opamp upgrade worth it? Is any other opamp worth replacing the stock one on the m-stage?


----------



## ACDOAN

Quote: 





chicolom said:


> ...I'm not sure what your asking?....


 


  It's okay. Balance Audio Technology  (speaker amp) is one of the world fine sounding amp but they have a bit of colour and their sound signature is considered "dark"  but wihout loosing the detail in HF, not typical HF roll-off to smooth out the harshness.
   
  I am going for the Matrix M-stage anyway , probably by next week.
   
  Question, E-bay thru Coolfungadget or Amazon thru Gateshop fullfilled by Amazon ? Pros and Cons, please. It seems I will have it faster thru Amazon than thru E-bay ( ship from China) but is Gateshop an authorized dealer ?


----------



## headhog

Quote: 





acdoan said:


> It's okay. Balance Audio Technology  (speaker amp) is one of the world fine sounding amp but they have a bit of colour and their sound signature is considered "dark"  but wihout loosing the detail in HF, not typical HF roll-off to smooth out the harshness.
> 
> I am going for the Matrix M-stage anyway , probably by next week.
> 
> Question, E-bay thru Coolfungadget or Amazon thru Gateshop fullfilled by Amazon ? Pros and Cons, please. It seems I will have it faster thru Amazon than thru E-bay ( ship from China) but is Gateshop an authorized dealer ?


 


 I bought mine from Tam Audio i was a bit hesitant since i dont like setting up new user accounts.But it is a bit cheaper to buy from Tam Audio website the service is good i got my m-stage in one week.


----------



## fishbulb95

Matrix M-Stage vs Hifiman EF2A: AKG Q701 test subject
   
  I received my M-Stage about 3 weeks ago.  I've had some time to play around with it.  Results: This is a beautiful piece of construction, with amazing sound.
   
  Currently I have it paired with my AKG Q701, before I was running the Hifiman EF2A.  A quick comparison: the EF2A is a great little device (for those of you that enjoy the tube sound).   Music was stellar coming through the Q701, flat, controlled highs, dynamic, and a fairly large soundstage.  As most people mention the Q701 is a little bass lacking, and for the most part I would agree.  I always felt like I was straining to hear the bass, I would notice on occasion the extension it was capable of.
   
  Enter the Matrix M-Stage:
   
  The very first thing I noticed with the sound... Bass.  Wait, the Q701 shouldn't have a strong bass.  What I realized wasn't so much a strong punchy bass, but a massive extension of it.  Listening to classical pieces hearing the bow glide across the lowest note a cello produces made my ears... wobble.  I then discovered the real appeal for these headphones. They needed the power the EF2A just couldn't provide. I was finally able enjoy my Rock/Metal music more, male vocalists had an extra bit of weight added.  The bass felt more controlled, thus individual notes were much easier to distinguish.  There was a little extra punch, but not a lot since these are a more neutral headphone.
   
  Highs: Just as clear as before, the sound stage seemed more expansive.  I felt the M-stage replicated the higher frequencies much better, cymbal crashes were clear, and sparkly.  They didn't feel artificially pronounced, (I was using the stock tubes in the EF2A which tend to boost the highs to counter that traditional tube warmness)
   
  Mids: Compared to the EF2A, I felt the mids were recessed a little more. Granted I now had this vast extension of bass that just opened up and my ears were used to hearing music with the boosted mids and highs. After a few hours of adjusting, I couldn't go back. Vocals sounded more natural within the mix.
   
  As some people would experience, the EF2A had a significant channel imbalance till the 9 o'clock position.  This is where I would listen to music at standard volume.  But I could never turn the volume down really low (for relaxed bedtime listening).  Even at very quiet listening volumes the M-stage did a fantastic job at accurately representing the sound. I haven't noticed any channel imbalance yet.
   
  Conclusion: The M-Stage was a vast improvement in all aspects of sound with regards to my AKG Q701.  In the price range this is an amazing amp to pair with the AKG.  The EF2A is $100 less, and looks really cool.  I suppose if you like tube rolling I hear it can shine depending on what you put in it.
   
  Now I just have to wait one more day for my Beyer Dynamic DT990 / 600 to arrive.  (The fun headphone)


----------



## Chris J

Thanks!
  Great review!
  Please, please post your M Stage DT990 impressions.
  I have a pair of DT880 in 600 ohm, the M has *NO* problem driving them.
  Yes, the DT990s are fun.


----------



## EinZweiDrei

i have a question for M Stage owners.
 do you hear a pop when you turn on your M Stage or when you turn it off when wearing your headphones.


----------



## headhog

Quote: 





einzweidrei said:


> i have a question for M Stage owners.
> do you hear a pop when you turn on your M Stage or when you turn it off when wearing your headphones.


 


 Yes i heard it with the vol all the way down.To be on the safe side i unplug my headphones frist but i wouldn't know if leaving them pluged in is safe during power up or power down i'm sure there is some one here that can better answer your question.


----------



## EinZweiDrei

i hear a pop when i turn it on but not when i turn it off.
 i left them plugged in for quite a while now and there seems to be no problem so far.
 but im too scared that problems might develop later.
 so i guess ill take the same precaution as leaving the phones unplugged when turning the device on or off.
 but what if i already fried something inside my m stage without knowing. since im basically double amping.
 is there a way to tell if i damaged my m stage other than it stops working completely?
 since the M stage is a Class A amp, does it really draw out 10A? it saids "125v 10A" on the adapter it came with the M stage.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





einzweidrei said:


> i hear a pop when i turn it on but not when i turn it off.
> i left them plugged in for quite a while now and there seems to be no problem so far.
> but im too scared that problems might develop later.
> so i guess ill take the same precaution as leaving the phones unplugged when turning the device on or off.
> ...


 

 If it sounds OK, It's probably OK.
  As a precaution, always unplug your 'phones when turning any headphone amp ON or OFF.
  First turn your PC or DAC ON, turn the Matrix volume down, then turn the Matrix ON.
  Then plug the 'phones IN and turn the volume UP.
   
  The M Stage draws much less than one amp from the wall at 120 Vac.
  It might be Class A, but we are also taking about approximately 1/2 Watt or so of Class A power per channel.


----------



## Mr Jihen

I'm curious as to how the Matrix M Stage stacks up against the Hifiman EF-5. Does anybody have any experience with the two?
  Or is it a bit naive to compare the two


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





mr jihen said:


> I'm curious as to how the Matrix M Stage stacks up against the Hifiman EF-5. Does anybody have any experience with the two?
> Or is it a bit naive to compare the two


 


  http://www.headfonia.com/matrix-m-stage/2/


----------



## Digital-Pride

Quote: 





mr jihen said:


> I'm curious as to how the Matrix M Stage stacks up against the Hifiman EF-5. Does anybody have any experience with the two?
> Or is it a bit naive to compare the two


 


  Actually, they're quite comparable.  Here's an excellent *article *that includes a comparison between the two.  Edit: Looks like Chicolom beat me to it.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





mr jihen said:


> I'm curious as to how the Matrix M Stage stacks up against the Hifiman EF-5. Does anybody have any experience with the two?
> Or is it a bit naive to compare the two


 


 We love comparison questions!
  Welcome aboard!


----------



## Mr Jihen

Awesome. Thanks guys!


----------



## chicolom

So I did some more A-B testing with my 2xOPA602BP vs OPA2134 and I don't think I can tell the difference.  I tried to pick out differences, but they seem so small they could very well be placebo.  I figured all the extra adapters on the OPA602 probably wouldn't help the sound so I've been running the stock opamp in my m-stage for the past week.  It sounds fine to my ears...
   
  I now have a LM4562 I got for a couple bucks off ebay so I will try that, but I wouldn't be surprised if it sounded the same as well.  Luckily I love the way my headphones (Q701) sound already so I don't need to tune the sound anyways.  I'm just always looking for ways to improve soundstage.  I think the stock M-stage already has a nice soundstage for the price.  I'm not sure if opamp rolling can increase that.
   
  I imagine the class A biasing would change they sound more...


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





chicolom said:


> So I did some more A-B testing with my 2xOPA602BP vs OPA2134 and I don't think I can tell the difference.  I tried to pick out differences, but they seem so small they could very well be placebo.  I figured all the extra adapters on the OPA602 probably wouldn't help the sound so I've been running the stock opamp in my m-stage for the past week.  It sounds fine to my ears...
> 
> I now have a LM4562 I got for a couple bucks off ebay so I will try that, but I wouldn't be surprised if it sounded the same as well.  Luckily I love the way my headphones (Q701) sound already so I don't need to tune the sound anyways.  I'm just always looking for ways to improve soundstage.  I think the stock M-stage already has a nice soundstage for the price.  I'm not sure if opamp rolling can increase that.
> 
> I imagine the class A biasing would change they sound more...


 

 If you think they sound very, very similar then you won't hear much difference with the Class A mod.
  It is very subtle.
  Same goes for the LM4562.  Maybe, maybe, maybe a touch more clarity?
  They all sound so similar that I am off Op Amp rolling!  LOL!  But it s fun.
  I'm sticking with the LM4562............YMMV.


----------



## GamerOne

Does anyone know how well the M-stage does with a pair of AH-D2000/D5000?


----------



## fishbulb95

Quote: 





gamerone said:


> Does anyone know how well the M-stage does with a pair of AH-D2000/D5000?


 


  Yesterday I went to my friends house to test out his various headphones, and he wanted to test my M-Stage.  Every headphone we threw at it worked amazingly.  I got to test drive the D7000 It was nothing short of an unstoppable force of excellence.  Now the specs for the M-Stage says output impedance is 5ohms, and using the rule of eights, on paper it should not be the most ideal match.  But from what I heard, the D7000 was amazing. I kept going back to that headphone, if it can perform well with the M-Stage I expect the D2000/D5000 should as well. I just switched the gain settings to 0dB, nothing more of 12o'clock was necessary.
   
   
  I currently own the Q701 and the DT990/600 (returning) I am going to buy the D5000 to replace it.  It will be running through the M-Stage.   
   
   
  DT990: I just had a week to play with the DT990, all I had before was the Q701.  The punch of the bass was very nice to have, but those boosted highs created way too much sibilance.  The only type of music that really shined through the DT990 was death metal (Graveworm), or any song that I missed that impact that a 701 just won't provide.  Any song that already boosts the highs (Sssssssss and Fffffff) became way too much for these headphones to handle. For $100 more I am getting the feeling the D5000 will be a much better match for my genres.
   
  As far as running through the M-Stage, if there are any people on the fence about the DT770/880/990 600ohm, the M-Stage performs very well.
   
  Edit: My friend didn't mention any issues with the D7000 and the M-Stage.


----------



## Han Bao Quan

Quote: 





gamerone said:


> Does anyone know how well the M-stage does with a pair of AH-D2000/D5000?


 


  Most of the Denon, and especially D7000/D5000, are very efficient. You can drive them with pretty much anything. My D7000 worked wonderfully with the M-stage that fishbulb95 brought over yesterday. My Asgard came today and I will be testing it with all my headphones. But back to the M-stage, it would work excellently with D5000


----------



## spongeworthy

Has anyone purchased anything off Tamaudio lately? I ordered an M-stage on Monday, and I was told I would receive a tracking number/ shipping notifcation on Tuesday, but it's now Friday, and I haven't heard anything, My e-mails go unreplied too.


----------



## fishbulb95

Quote: 





spongeworthy said:


> Has anyone purchased anything off Tamaudio lately? I ordered an M-stage on Monday, and I was told I would receive a tracking number/ shipping notifcation on Tuesday, but it's now Friday, and I haven't heard anything, My e-mails go unreplied too.


 


  I ordered mine on a Tuesday about a month ago, I didn't get any tracking information till Sunday, which didn't start updating till the following Monday, then arrived to California and my home on Thursday.  Hmm. usually they're pretty good at responding to emails, I emailed Saturday night, and received a response Sunday Morning. Since I ordered via Amazon I wanted to confirm that they were shipping me the 120V version.


----------



## headhog

Quote: 





spongeworthy said:


> Has anyone purchased anything off Tamaudio lately? I ordered an M-stage on Monday, and I was told I would receive a tracking number/ shipping notifcation on Tuesday, but it's now Friday, and I haven't heard anything, My e-mails go unreplied too.


 


  I got my tracking number a day before my amp arrived useless but i got it.Other then that i think Tam Audio has good customer service you shouldn't worry your amp is probably already in your town.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





fishbulb95 said:


> As far as running through the M-Stage, if there are any people on the fence about the DT770/880/990 600ohm, the M-Stage performs very well.


 


  I agree, the M does a great job of driving my DT880/600 ohm 'phones, the amp drives the phones to levels far louder than you would want to listen to.
   
  BTW, the DT880s are very neutral and are worth listening to if you think DT990 are too bright.


----------



## bala

Has anybody tried a high-quality power cable with the Mstage  and noticed any observable difference? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Looking to replace my generic power cable with a copper line alpha and would like to know if anyone has tried something similar with the mstage.


----------



## kyoshiro

Quote: 





bala said:


> Has anybody tried a high-quality power cable with the Mstage  and noticed any observable difference?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


  i've been using my Furutech cable with Oyaide Rhodium IEC and a MS UK Plug but man I think I need to change the fuse in order to bring out the potential of this set up lol
  I havent used the generic power cable long enough to be able to tell you if it really makes a difference but I need a dedicated wall socket to really test its potential which I will soon have once I move... 
  I'll prolly bring my MStage down to Jaben HK to try out their power socket sometime anyhow lol


----------



## clams

Quote: 





bala said:


> Has anybody tried a high-quality power cable with the Mstage  and noticed any observable difference?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


  I've just been using a cheap iron lung jellyfish and it still sounds a little better. The amp is overall pretty responsive to changes in the system.


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





chris j said:


> I'm sticking with the LM4562............YMMV.


 


  LM4562 is safe to use in the M-stage right?  I read about the BJT vs. FET inputs and how BJT can have DC offset.  It won't slowly melt my headphones will it?


----------



## Zombie_X

I really wouldn't bother with a power cable upgrade, the generic Monoprice cables are more than enough. I can't see how 6ft of these special cables will correct any issues with the thousand of miles of crappy wire underground. There's no way they can fix anything like that. Maybe the only way to fix it is to use a Power Plant or something.
   
  I used to think there were differences but after testing quite a few after market power cables  I came to the conclusion that there is no difference.
   
  Quote: 





bala said:


> Has anybody tried a high-quality power cable with the Mstage  and noticed any observable difference?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Guess?

I also think it's not worth my while to upgrade the power cables with something >$10, it might give me some subtle improvement, but I don't think it will be justified, or noticed. I got to change the whole power grid on this old flat, maybe then... well since your cable is not the cheapest I think you're OK.


----------



## Digital-Pride




----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





chicolom said:


> LM4562 is safe to use in the M-stage right?  I read about the BJT vs. FET inputs and how BJT can have DC offset.  It won't slowly melt my headphones will it?


 

  
  Good question!

 I've been using it for a couple of weeks with no ill effects.
  I just measured the output on my M.
  DC offset on one channel was 0.4 mV,  the other channel was 2.4 mV. Not enough to worry about.
  Gain was set to 10 dB.
  I set it to 10 dB just in case the Op Amp oscillates at unity Gain (0 dB) because I suspect some Op Amps will oscillate!
  I need to get my oscilloscope going again: I need new leads!


----------



## bala

mmm....guess I'll just get better interconnects then 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





, the power chord venture seems like a dead end!


----------



## kyoshiro

Quote: 





bala said:


> mmm....guess I'll just get better interconnects then
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


  it is lol


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Good question!
> 
> I've been using it for a couple of weeks with no ill effects.
> I just measured the output on my M.
> ...


 


  Thanks for measuring that.  I guess that's well below the threshold of dangerous levels?


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





chicolom said:


> Thanks for measuring that.  I guess that's well below the threshold of dangerous levels?


 


 Yeah,   that's pretty low.
  After several hours the two channels settled to 2.2 mV and 6.3 mV still low enough. Still no danger.
  Every LM4562 will read differently.


----------



## Weson

I've just got one of these and i noticed that it's something glowing inside of it. Is this normal?


----------



## chicolom

^   Yes, thats normal.  Unless it's unplugged from the wall but there's still a mysterious glow emanating from it - that's NOT normal


----------



## EinZweiDrei

since my current setup doesnt have a proper DAC yet.
 im basically double amping.
 does it matter which amp i adjust in order?


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





einzweidrei said:


> since my current setup doesnt have a proper DAC yet.
> im basically double amping.
> does it matter which amp i adjust in order?


 

  
  I assume you have headphones of average sensitivity?

 Try setting the Matrix gain to 10 dB.
  Then set Matrix volume to approx. 10-12 o'clock. 
  Then play some music and adjust the first amp to a reasonable listening volume.
  Ideally the fist amp should be farily close to full output.
  Hopefully the system will be quiet when no music is playing, i.e. hiss should be inaudible.
   
  If you are running the stock Op Amp and still have too much gain, try setting the Matrix to 0 dB gain.
   
  Let us know what you get.


----------



## EinZweiDrei

Quote: 





chris j said:


> I assume you have headphones of average sensitivity?
> 
> Try setting the Matrix gain to 10 dB.
> Then set Matrix volume to approx. 10-12 o'clock.
> ...


 

 my phones are k701.
 like most people i use the 10db gain setting.
 my m stage volume knob is at 12 o clock.
 whats being fed through my M stage is 3.5 socket on my sound card. sound card volume is at 20%, player volume(winamp, foobar200, itune) is at 100%
 no hiss at this setting.

 with sound card volume at max and m stage knob at 9 o clock position, slight distortion and pops and crack can be heard.


----------



## headhog

Quote: 





einzweidrei said:


> my phones are k701.
> like most people i use the 10db gain setting.
> my m stage volume knob is at 12 o clock.
> whats being fed through my M stage is 3.5 socket on my sound card. sound card volume is at 20%, player volume(winamp, foobar200, itune) is at 100%
> ...


 


 Is it an internal sound card in your pc or laptop?


----------



## EinZweiDrei

Quote: 





headhog said:


> Is it an internal sound card in your pc or laptop?


 


  desktop pc
 the first setting is my normal listening level.
 in a fairly warm room is it ok for the m stage to get warm after 2 hours? its not hot but more like cozy warm.


----------



## headhog

Quote: 





einzweidrei said:


> desktop pc
> the first setting is my normal listening level.
> in a fairly warm room is it ok for the m stage to get warm after 2 hours? its not hot but more like cozy warm.


 


 I always get  noises when i plug directly into the headphone jack in my laptop.When i use my external sound card it's silent perhaps it's just the noises coming from your computer.
   
  It's ok if your m-stage is warm after two hours thats normal.


----------



## EinZweiDrei

Quote: 





headhog said:


> I always get  noises when i plug directly into the headphone jack in my laptop.When i use my external sound card it's silent perhaps it's just the noises coming from your computer.
> 
> It's ok if your m-stage is warm after two hours thats normal.


 


  if i max my soundcard volume its still dead silent. but music distorts.
 i really need to get a proper dac. i have my eyes on hrt music streamer 2.
 and thanks for your help.


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Yeah,   that's pretty low.
> After several hours the two channels settled to 2.2 mV and 6.3 mV still low enough. Still no danger.
> Every LM4562 will read differently.


 


  Hmm... have you by chance measured the stock opamp OPA2134's DC offset?  I read some other threads on head-fi and some people seem to think the AKG x70x in particular are especially susceptible to DC offset.  One guy said try and stay below 5mv with K701!  I don't know if that's just being paranoid or if there is truth to that...


----------



## EinZweiDrei

Quote: 





chicolom said:


> Hmm... have you by chance measured the stock opamp OPA2134's DC offset?  I read some other threads on head-fi and some people seem to think the AKG x70x in particular are especially susceptible to DC offset.  One guy said try and stay below 5mv with K701!  I don't know if that's just being paranoid or if there is truth to that...


 


  your paranoia is scaring me too now.
 i've been using the stock opamp for over a month with the k701s now.
 so far they seem fine. but i still like for it to be confirmed.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





chicolom said:


> Hmm... have you by chance measured the stock opamp OPA2134's DC offset?  I read some other threads on head-fi and some people seem to think the AKG x70x in particular are especially susceptible to DC offset.  One guy said try and stay below 5mv with K701!  I don't know if that's just being paranoid or if there is truth to that...


 
  Really not much difference between 6.3 mV and 5 mV so I'm not worried about it, but I'll try a few other Op Amps tonight (including OPA2134) to see what I get for DC offset. 
  I've had my Q701s plugged in for several hours with the LM4562 with no ill effects!
  Don't sweat it, man!


----------



## spongeworthy

Just received my m-stage, and I'm not hearing a whole lot of difference between the m-stage, and plugging my Q701s directly into my Titanium HD. Does this amp need burning in first? My source is the Titanium HD. 
   
  My m-stage got a free usb upgrade which was a nice surprise! Although the DAC on my sound card is much much better .


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





einzweidrei said:


> your paranoia is scaring me too now.
> i've been using the stock opamp for over a month with the k701s now.
> so far they seem fine. but i still like for it to be confirmed.


 


 Hi,
   
  I have installed the stock Op Amp back in my M,  waddya know, DC offset is 0.2 mV on one channel, 6.8 mV on the other channel!
  I'm going to let it run for 24 hours and I'll post where it ends up.
   
  Thanks for asking, it's a very good question.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  I think the DC offset fear is probably driven by the fact that if a solid state head amp fails and you get (for example) 4 Volts or 12 Volts thru the 'phones you can kiss your cans goodbye!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  But a very low DC offset is what you want.


----------



## EinZweiDrei

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have installed the stock Op Amp back in my M,  waddya know, DC offset is 0.2 mV on one channel, 6.8 mV on the other channel!
> I'm going to let it run for 24 hours and I'll post where it ends up.
> ...


 

 thanks for testing it for us.

 i dont know if this is just me but it seems like after leaving the k701 plugged into the m stage for 6 hours on idle without music playing
 gives it more bottom end. normally i could barely feel the sub bass but after six hours i feel it humming from the back of my head to my chest.
 but then again i might be going crazy.


----------



## Chris J

Matrix ON after 12 hours non stop with OPA2134:
   
  one channel:  -1.1 mV
  other channel:   6.8 mV
   
  I'll let it run for another 12 hours..................


----------



## chicolom

Quote:


chris j said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have installed the stock Op Amp back in my M,  waddya know, DC offset is 0.2 mV on one channel, 6.8 mV on the other channel!
> I'm going to let it run for 24 hours and I'll post where it ends up.
> ...


 


 Thanks for testing, again.  I feel better about using LM4562 knowing the stock opamp is about the same anyways


----------



## Chris J

Still gotta do OPA627 Class A and non Class A!


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Matrix ON after 12 hours non stop with OPA2134:
> 
> one channel:  -1.1 mV
> other channel:   6.8 mV
> ...


 

 another 12 hours later:
  one channel:
  1.6 mV
  other channel:
  -5.4 mV
   
  It occurred to me I should plug in some headphones...............Q701...................and here's what I get:
  -0.6 mV
  5.2 mV


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





chris j said:


> another 12 hours later:
> one channel:
> 1.6 mV
> other channel:
> ...


 


 plain vanilla OPA627 with Q701s plugged in after 2 hours:
  -0.4 mV
  5.3 mV  DC offset


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





chris j said:


> plain vanilla OPA627 with Q701s plugged in after 2 hours:
> -0.4 mV
> 5.3 mV  DC offset


 

 and after 24 hours:
   
  -2.5 mV
  the other channel
  5.3 mV
  
  Yaaaawn!


----------



## haejuk

I'm thinking of upgrading to an M-Stage from an E9.  I was wondering, what headphones have good synergy with the M-Stage?  I am thinking of going with DT770s, but I don't know if I should get 32, 80, 250, or 600 ohm model.  I figured that one of those should probably match the output impedance well, but I really don't know much on that subject.
   
  So, any suggestions?  One of the DT770 listed above, or do other cans synergize better with the M-Stage?


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





chris j said:


> and after 24 hours:
> 
> -2.5 mV
> the other channel
> ...


 
   
  Keep testing...I want to know what happens after 72 hours!!!


----------



## genclaymore

I use a DT880 pro-250 with the matrix M-Stage v2. I had a fiio E9 my self, tho my reason for moving to the Matrix M-Stage was it better access to it op-amp since I roll op-amps allot. Since I wouldn't have to put a flash light in my mouth and use a needle nose pillars like I had to if I wanted to change the Fiio E9 op-amp for its headphone dip-8 socket.
   
  So non pro DT880's should be a good match for it, but I basing it off my DT880 pro-250 which should be close to the non pro DT880s.Which every beyer you choice, If the 600ohm models is the same price as the 250ohm models or close  enough then why not.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





chicolom said:


> Keep testing...I want to know what happens after 72 hours!!!


 

 OK,
  I will put in an OPA627 Class A and let it run for 72 hours starting tonight.
  I'm sure it settles down after 2 or 3 or 4 hours. So we should not see any change after 4 hours.
   
  But what the heck, I'll try it anyway.


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





chris j said:


> OK,
> I will put in an OPA627 Class A and let it run for 72 hours starting tonight.
> I'm sure it settles down after 2 or 3 or 4 hours. So we should not see any change after 4 hours.
> 
> But what the heck, I'll try it anyway.


 

 I was joking you know


----------



## taylorpoz

Anyone know anything about the new-ish USB DAC combo version? As in, what chip it uses and how good it actually sounds...?


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





taylorpoz said:


> Anyone know anything about the new-ish USB DAC combo version? As in, what chip it uses and how good it actually sounds...?


 


  "USB interface with TI's TAS1020B chip and the PCM1793"
   
  It sounds OK for the price... not as good as >$100 DACs


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





chicolom said:


> I was joking you know


 


 Ooooooooh!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  Well I started it up last night with the Class A mod OPA627, I'll let it run for 24 hours.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  Then I'm done!
   
  At least until I get some 'scope leads.......................


----------



## Oderi

Recently stumbled upon the concept of amp burn-in myself.
   
  How big of a factor is that with the M-Stage according to everyone's experience here?


----------



## headhog

Quote: 





oderi said:


> Recently stumbled upon the concept of amp burn-in myself.
> 
> How big of a factor is that with the M-Stage according to everyone's experience here?


 


 None in my experience the only real changes to my ear are the sources headphones and the recordings themselves.I still have the stock op amp which sounds great to me i'm already going into four weeks with m-stage and it still sounds the same to me as the day i opened the box then again i dont have golden ears.
   
  Also i'm really enjoying my M-Stage i find myself becoming a fan of old bands i forgotten about which is a nice treat.


----------



## Monago

Quote: 





oderi said:


> Recently stumbled upon the concept of amp burn-in myself.
> 
> How big of a factor is that with the M-Stage according to everyone's experience here?


 

  
  I was planning to give you a detailed account on my experiences with burn-in, but I'm in a mad rush of sorts, so I'm typing this out as fast/short as I can.
   
  I bought a Lovely Cube, quite similar to the M-Stage, about 6 months ago; class a OPA627 modification and all. Upon arrival and first listen, the sound was rather closed in and soft, with no redeeming qualities over what I was hearing from the auxiliary headphone jack on my Sony home theater system. Disappointed, to say the least.
   
  Before selling my amp on the 'for sale forums' and giving up on headphone amps entirely, I decided there was no harm in exploring 'burn-in'. I gave it 200 hours of continuous play time before listening for a second time - me being so disappointed from my first impressions, I wanted my ears to be 'fresh' to the sound.
   
  The sound became full, articulate; very wide, very deep, and without the muddy indiscernible mess I was hearing before. It was fantastic - my HD650's never sounded so incredible. A few months after this, I removed the input caps on my lovely cube, making my amp completely neutral. This was another big step-up in audio fidelity for me; more detail retrieval and transparency, better prat, etc. 
   
  My amp undoubtedly changed after burn-in to my ears, and I'm generally quite cynical about these things. If the amp remained as it was on first listen, I would have sold it a VERY long time ago.


----------



## Monago

Oh, and a quick comment on gain.
   
  At about 1500 hours of use, the amp seems to 'prefer' 18 gain over 10; 10 gain sounding flat and lifeless where 18 is FAR more 'present', dynamic, powerful...
   
  I admit that I listen through my amp often, so this might be a psychoacoustical effect of sorts; me having listened to the same sound for so long, my ears gradually adapted and find said sound to be less enticing that it once was. 
   
  However, I had a friend come over to confirm my findings, and he agreed with my observations. To him, 18 gain sounded much better than 10 with an entire night to compare both. He found similar characteristics changed, with the sound becoming more dynamic and present.


----------



## Sganzerla

I had the same impression when using my DT 880/600 with 20dB x 10dB gain.


----------



## EinZweiDrei

has any1 here tried the 18gain option with the q/k70x?


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





chris j said:


> OK,
> I will put in an OPA627 Class A and let it run for 72 hours starting tonight.
> I'm sure it settles down after 2 or 3 or 4 hours. So we should not see any change after 4 hours.
> 
> But what the heck, I'll try it anyway.


 

 After 60 hours:
  6.7 mV
  -1.3 mV
   
  And now I'm done with that stuff!
  
  Quote: 





einzweidrei said:


> has any1 here tried the 18gain option with the q/k70x?


 


 I think it sounds too thin.
  Anyone else ever try this out?
  I know a few of you have.
  Maybe I should try it with different Op Amps to see if this is consistent with all the suitable Op Amps I have.


----------



## Mikesin

I changed from 10dB to 18dB yesterday and I agree with what everyone says about 18 is better 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  Quote: 





einzweidrei said:


> has any1 here tried the 18gain option with the q/k70x?


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





mikesin said:


> I changed from 10dB to 18dB yesterday and I agree with what everyone says about 18 is better


 


 I'm not trying to start an argument, just another opinion.
  There is a guy who did an M Stage to O2 comparison, he swears that 0 dB gain is best.
  I think it is just a matter of preference.


----------



## Monago

Quote: 





chris j said:


> I'm not trying to start an argument, just another opinion.
> There is a guy who did an M Stage to O2 comparison, he swears that 0 dB gain is best.
> I think it is just a matter of preference.


 

 I think it heavily depends on the headphone. My HD650's sound utterly flat and lifeless on anything less than 10 gain. If I push it up to 18 gain, there's absolutely no increase of treble or sibilance from 0 or 10; just greater soundstage, clarity, transparency, prat, 'presence'...


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





monago said:


> I think it heavily depends on the headphone. My HD650's sound utterly flat and lifeless on anything less than 10 gain. If I push it up to 18 gain, there's absolutely no increase of treble or sibilance from 0 or 10; just greater soundstage, clarity, transparency, prat, 'presence'...


 


 Interesting,
  I guess it is heavily dependent on your 'phone of choice.
  Throw in a different Op Amp???
  I'll have to play around with settings on my M with the DT880, then find my favourite gain for the Q701s.
  I guess I should quit assuming what works well on the Q works equally well on the DT880. Or any other 'phone.


----------



## Monago

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Interesting,
> I guess it is heavily dependent on your 'phone of choice.
> Throw in a different Op Amp???
> I'll have to play around with settings on my M with the DT880, then find my favorite gain for the Q701s.
> I guess I should quit assuming what works well on the Q works equally well on the DT880. Or any other 'phone.


 

 Generally the greatest sound difference in any given setup is *always* the headphone, so starting there and working back 'down the line', so-to-speak, is the best way to optimize. I won't delve into technicalities because I'd be talking out of my rear end, but only to say that with different headphones/sound signatures/impedance's, usually come rather different optimal setups in terms of amplification and the subsequent peripherals or optionals. The best you can do is experiment with various settings to find a 'setup' to your liking. Personally, everything I own--amp, opamps, and dac--are all decisions I made with my particular headphone in mind - the HD650's.
   
  I've owned K701's so know their bright signature quite well. The DT880, as I understand it, have a similar brighter sound, so I'll assume you'd want to gravitate toward a darker or more neutral opamp choice. Whatever opamp you end up choosing should work well with both headphones considering their similar, brighter characteristics. Edit: That said, the M-Stage is rather inherently dark, so you'd want to consider that while making a decision on your opamp.
   
  As for gain, that's something you'll just have to experiment with. Giving yourself 1 hour with each setting and headphone should be enough time to decide whether you like it or not - or at least it was for me.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





monago said:


> Generally the greatest sound difference in any given setup is *always* the headphone, so starting there and working back 'down the line', so-to-speak, is the best way to optimize. I won't delve into technicalities because I'd be talking out of my rear end, but only to say that with different headphones/sound signatures/impedance's, usually come rather different optimal setups in terms of amplification and the subsequent peripherals or optionals. The best you can do is experiment with various settings to find a 'setup' to your liking. Personally, everything I own--amp, opamps, and dac--are all decisions I made with my particular headphone in mind - the HD650's.
> 
> I've owned K701's so know their bright signature quite well. The DT880, as I understand it, have a similar brighter sound, so I'll assume you'd want to gravitate toward a darker or more neutral opamp choice. Whatever opamp you end up choosing should work well with both headphones considering their similar, brighter characteristics. Edit: That said, the M-Stage is rather inherently dark, so you'd want to consider that while making a decision on your opamp.
> 
> As for gain, that's something you'll just have to experiment with. Giving yourself 1 hour with each setting and headphone should be enough time to decide whether you like it or not - or at least it was for me.


 

 The DT880 is "more or less" halfway between the HD650 and the Q701.
  The Q701 is a bit closer to the DT990 (bright) than the DT880.
  I am starting to think that the M Stage is too dark for the DT880. Just my opinion..............YMMV.
  I tend to be more of an Objectivist and lean toward neatralitiy and a sense of openness and clarity.


----------



## Monago

Quote: 





chris j said:


> The DT880 is "more or less" halfway between the HD650 and the Q701.
> The Q701 is a bit closer to the DT990 (bright) than the DT880.
> I am starting to think that the M Stage is too dark for the DT880. Just my opinion..............YMMV.
> I tend to be more of an Objectivist and lean toward neatralitiy and a sense of openness and clarity.


 

 Ah. Well, if you're interested in an open, neutral, clear sound, you might consider the LM4562 or OPA2111 as potential options for your Opamps. Both are very neutral and detailed, although the LM4562 is far cheaper, and probably a more practical solution. I've tried both, and preferred the OPA2111AM by a VERY small margin (and I mean small).
   
  You also might consider something more dramatic to reach neutrality by removing the input caps like I have. However, be warned: your amp becomes *completely* neutral, so with a neutral amp and neutral/bright opamps inserted along with Q701's as your preferred headphone, you might end up getting more clarity and neutrality than you bargained for. You'd also need to be aware of DC offset from your source without input caps. If you're interested, there's plenty of discussion on removing the input caps around the beginning or middle of this thread - lots of thorough explanations on the cost/benefit of such a modification. I will say that it paid off for me, and can't imagine not having the input caps removed. It elevated my enjoyment of this amplifier to new levels =). Edit: I do however, have HD650's, so...


----------



## genclaymore

Quote: 





chris j said:


> The DT880 is "more or less" halfway between the HD650 and the Q701.
> The Q701 is a bit closer to the DT990 (bright) than the DT880.
> I am starting to think that the M Stage is too dark for the DT880. Just my opinion..............YMMV.
> I tend to be more of an Objectivist and lean toward neatralitiy and a sense of openness and clarity.


 


  I knew i wouldnt like the OPA2134 with my DT880s from not liking it from having a E9. so I changed it right away.  You gonna have to start op-amp rolling til you find a op-amp you enjoy with your DT880s. You could try LT1124ACN8. Which I liking with the 2x LT1122 in my M-stage.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





genclaymore said:


> I knew i wouldnt like the OPA2134 with my DT880s from not liking it from having a E9. so I changed it right away.  You gonna have to start op-amp rolling til you find a op-amp you enjoy with your DT880s. You could try LT1124ACN8. Which I liking with the 2x LT1122 in my M-stage.


 


  Yeah, I've been through changing various Op Amps and have removed the Input caps.
  I've setlled on the LM4562.
  Especially with DT880s I still find this amp a bit too dark for my liking with most material.
  The DT880/600 and LM4562 work great for a lot of Rock though, tremendous drive and punch.


----------



## Sganzerla

I think you should try Earth HDAM with the capacitor mod from the Zero DAC thread, as one said here before several pages ago.
   It will make LM4562 sound like crap in comparison, specially in extension, dynamics and soundstage.
   
   I was very happy with this combo, but I've upgraded to La Figaro 339 some time ago.


----------



## Chris J

Why not just get an Audio GD amp?


----------



## Sganzerla

I haven't heard any Audio-GD amp, but I can say that to me this amp can be improved very much, spending very little amount of money.


----------



## Chris J

There is a web site by a guy named, um, well, I can't really mention his name on Head Fi 'cos he got, well, you see, um, well, um, He Got Banned!
   
  Anyway, he says (his opinion) some guy named Samuel Groner measured the Earth and said it was shyte.
   
  OTOH for $22.50 plus shipping maybe it's worth a shot. 
   
  I keep thinking I gotta get a more neutral head amp..............................................................................................


----------



## KimLaroux

Quote: 





chris j said:


> There is a web site by a guy named, um, well, I can't really mention his name on Head Fi 'cos he got, well, you see, um, well, um, He Got Banned!
> 
> Anyway, he says (his opinion) some guy named Samuel Groner measured the Earth and said it was shyte.
> 
> ...


 

 Yeah that guy likes to listen to his audio gear with his measurement tools. But in the end, all that really matters is how it sounds to yours ears.


----------



## Zombie_X

Not to start anything but he does have good points about certain gear. I've read what he had to say and while I agree with some of his stuff, not all of it I do.
   
  He told me I was a victim of the "Head-Fi hype" and that his amp was better than my Auditor 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. Blasphemy! I can see it being comparable to $300 amps, but not at the $1K Auditor's level. 
   
  He said he would offer $500 towards charity if some one took up his amp challenge. He told me no one would ever take him up on it because he was right. I told him he could keep the money and I'd like to take him up on the challenge. Well he stopped responding to me after that.
  
  Quote: 





kimlaroux said:


> Yeah that guy likes to listen to his audio gear with his measurement tools. But in the end, all that really matters is how it sounds to yours ears.


----------



## genclaymore

Quote: 





zombie_x said:


> Not to start anything but he does have good points about certain gear. I've read what he had to say and while I agree with some of his stuff, not all of it I do.
> 
> He told me I was a victim of the "Head-Fi hype" and that his amp was better than my Auditor
> 
> ...


 


  He knew you would had caught him in a lie, so he ran off ignoring your messages. people like him exist all over the place. Always spreading non-sense then when some one takes them up on the challenge they disappear.


----------



## Guess?

Come on guys, who are you talking about?


----------



## Chris J

Mr. Objective 2.


----------



## Naim.F.C

I don't know about that. Imo the O2 is the real deal. Pretty much everything he promised it would be and then some. I'd imagine the ODA will just further his point.
  
  Quote: 





genclaymore said:


> He knew you would had caught him in a lie, so he ran off ignoring your messages. people like him exist all over the place. Always spreading non-sense then when some one takes them up on the challenge they disappear.


----------



## AKG240mkII

Quote: 





genclaymore said:


> people like him exist all over the place. Always spreading non-sense ...


 


  Yeah, THAT'S what measurements are .. _non-sense_ !
  In the end all that matters is how it sounds to your ears .. The hole in your wallet is telling you it sounds _damn good _!


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





akg240mkii said:


> Yeah, THAT'S what measurements are .. _non-sense_ !
> In the end all that matters is how it sounds to your ears .. The hole in your wallet is telling you it sounds _damn good _!


 


 Now that's what I call funny! LOL
   
  This has been beaten to death,





  but I'm sure most of you are aware that the guys who design this stuff analyze, calculate, simulate, measure, prototype, revise.
  In other words, follow a scientific approach to designing the equipment you are listening to.
  I'm sure listening to the equipment they are designing is only a minor part of the process.
   
  The guys who don't do this don't stay in business long.


----------



## kongmw

uhhh guys... we should probably try to get back on topic before they shut down the thread...just sayin'


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





kongmw said:


> uhhh guys... we should probably try to get back on topic before they shut down the thread...just sayin'


 

 In that case, despite all it's flaws and weaknesses I really dig my M Stage.
   
  Back on topic, my favourite subject du jour: anyone tried this amp with a pair of Grados?


----------



## Monago

A few questions, for those in the know...
  
 Would the LME49990 be compatible with the M-Stage? If so, what would be required to make it fit (assuming it isn't just drop-in)? Finally, would the drop-in class A bias mods be compatible with a fitted LME49990? 
  
 I've heard incredible things about this opamp, and would love to give it a try asap!


----------



## Oderi

To get back to something I was on about some weeks ago, the hiss issue with higher gains (with my unit anyway). So with my M50's I get pretty bad hiss at 18 and 20 dB (those gains are unusable with those phones anyway). Just a min ago tried with old Koss phones, 4AA's I think they were that are 250 ohm and the hiss has significantly decreased, even 20 dB is listenable now although the hiss does get noticeable at around 12 o'clock (ear-splitting volumes; 8 o'clock to 8.30 is a maximum even with the higher impedance phones, tested hiss with no music playing).
   
  Comments? Anyone else had the same thing?


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





oderi said:


> To get back to something I was on about some weeks ago, the hiss issue with higher gains (with my unit anyway). *So with my M50's I get pretty bad hiss at 18 and 20 dB* (those gains are unusable with those phones anyway). Just a min ago tried with old Koss phones, 4AA's I think they were that are 250 ohm and the hiss has significantly decreased, even 20 dB is listenable now although the hiss does get noticeable at around 12 o'clock (ear-splitting volumes;* 8 o'clock to 8.30 is a maximum* even with the higher impedance phones, tested hiss with no music playing).
> 
> Comments? Anyone else had the same thing?


 


  That gain is way too high for those phones.  Yes, you can hear hiss if you use sensitive phones and max out the gain, that's normal.
   
  You want volume to bet closer to 12 o'clock _not_ 8 o'clock, that's too high gain.


----------



## Oderi

Quote: 





chicolom said:


> That gain is way too high for those phones.  Yes, you can hear hiss if you use sensitive phones and max out the gain, that's normal.
> 
> You want volume to bet closer to 12 o'clock _not_ 8 o'clock, that's too high gain.


 

  
  This is the response I anticipated but didn't get earlier. Instead all I got something I interpreted as "any hiss at 20 dB is abnormal." Thanks.
  Is it perfectly normal tho that even a highish impedance phone, such as 4AA's (I've read they're 250 ohm) can only take 20 dB to around 8 o'clock? I was expecting something like 10 at least, but I guess the highest gains are meant for absolute monster cans?


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





oderi said:


> This is the response I anticipated but didn't get earlier. Instead all I got something I interpreted as "any hiss at 20 dB is abnormal." Thanks.
> Is it perfectly normal tho that even a highish impedance phone, such as 4AA's (I've read they're 250 ohm) can only take 20 dB to around 8 o'clock? I was expecting something like 10 at least, but I guess the highest gains are meant for absolute monster cans?


 

  
  8 o'clock does seem a little low, but maybe the 4AA's are pretty sensitive for 250 ohms or something...


----------



## Monago

I take back everything I said on previous pages about 18 gain. I tried 0 gain with the class A 3.49mA bias and the OPA627. 
   
  My HD650's have now become a reference monster; everything I wanted from these headphones and more when I bought them 2 years ago is precisely what I'm hearing. Soundstage is VERY wide and VERY deep, with incredible "air" around every instrument and vocals - the 'layering' of the soundstage being the most startling change, I can literally hear sections of instruments in the foreground and background. It's incredible. It doesn't matter what I play, the music is NEVER harsh or hard to listen to, but simultaneously always detailed and airy. Wow... I can't properly express how amazing this is.
   
  Anything above 0 gain ruins the sound completely. It smears everything; the sound becomes closed in and artificial, especially at 10 gain. At 18 gain, it's wide, but it's a very 'artificial' wide.
   
  I've always imagined what Hi-Fi would sound like, and have spent the last 3 years looking for it. With the HD650's and 0 gain on this amp, I have now found it, and it's audio bliss. Hell yes!!


----------



## headhog

Quote: 





monago said:


> I take back everything I said on previous pages about 18 gain. I tried 0 gain with the class A 3.49mA bias and the OPA627.
> 
> My HD650's have now become a reference monster; everything I wanted from these headphones and more when I bought them 2 years ago is precisely what I'm hearing. Soundstage is VERY wide and VERY deep, with incredible "air" around every instrument and vocals - the 'layering' of the soundstage being the most startling change, I can literally hear sections of instruments in the foreground and background. It's incredible. It doesn't matter what I play, the music is NEVER harsh or hard to listen to, but simultaneously always detailed and airy. Wow... I can't properly express how amazing this is.
> 
> ...


 


  Were do you have your gain knob set? I have k702 which i have yet to try it on 0 gain but i think i'm going to now.


----------



## Monago

Quote: 





headhog said:


> Were do you have your gain knob set? I have k702 which i have yet to try it on 0 gain but i think i'm going to now.


 


  With 0 gain, my volume pot normally needs to be at about 70% for normal listening. I have a rather large collection of music, and there's only 2 albums I can think of where I need to max out my volume for acceptable levels; another 1 or 2 albums that are just below normal listening, but I don't like them much anyway.
   
  And yes, give it a shot! I HIGHLY recommend anyone with a matrix m-stage or Lovely cube to use 0 gain. It has, by FAR, the best sound quality without question.
   
  The only issue with this, is obviously some people might experience a lack of gain in terms of listening levels. Just hope you have a powerful enough source, I suppose.


----------



## headhog

Quote: 





monago said:


> With 0 gain, my volume pot normally needs to be at about 70% for normal listening. I have a rather large collection of music, and there's only 2 albums I can think of where I need to max out my volume for acceptable levels; another 1 or 2 albums that are just below normal listening, but I don't like them much anyway.
> 
> And yes, give it a shot! I HIGHLY recommend anyone with a matrix m-stage or Lovely cube to use 0 gain. It has, by FAR, the best sound quality without question.
> 
> The only issue with this, is obviously some people might experience a lack of gain in terms of listening levels. Just hope you have a powerful enough source, I suppose.


 

 Is your amp dead quiet at that level any hiss?


----------



## Monago

Quote: 





headhog said:


> Is your amp dead quiet at that level any hiss?


 

  
  At 0 gain, no hiss. At 18 and 20 gain, I did experience a little hiss, however at higher than tolerable listening levels.


----------



## raysclim1568

Hello all , 
   
  Just bought the Matrix M-stage ( non-usb) to pair with my HE500 and Grado RS1i
  hopefully , it is a good match for the headphones .
   
  I was playing the Q701 with zero gain and found that I need to cramp down >4 o'clock  volume . so I reset the gain to +10db and listening level is at 2-3 pm mark. have not try with HE500 as it is incoming .
   
  I have other question other than above , is that how does the Op amp ( OPA627B dual from TAM audio) affects the sound of M-stage . 
  I initially bought it primarily for Grado RS1i as I read that M-stage is warm sounding and will be able to tone down sharp tone nature of Grado phones.  I hope that going for the Class A Op amp mod. will not change this warm sounding signature of M-stage . 
   
  and again , is the amp good match for HE500 ?
   
  Appreciate your advise. 
   
  Thanks 
  Raymond Lim


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





raysclim1568 said:


> Hello all ,
> 
> Just bought the Matrix M-stage ( non-usb) to pair with my HE500 and Grado RS1i
> hopefully , it is a good match for the headphones .
> ...


 

  
  I agree, I usually use +10 dB of Gain with my Q701.

 I find that OpAmp rolling this amp makes very subtle changes to the sound of the amp. But I've only tried a few different Op Amps
  You can put in a Class A OPA627 or a standard OPA627 or (my favourite!) an LM4562 and NOT substantially change the sound of the M Stage.
  I prefer the LM4562 because I think it sounds a bit cleaner, a bit more open.
   
  I'd be interested to hear what you think of this amp with an RS-1i!


----------



## verde57

How about OPA627AU on adapter, can it work with M-stage?


----------



## genclaymore

Quote: 





chris j said:


> I agree, I usually use +10 dB of Gain with my Q701.
> 
> I find that OpAmp rolling this amp makes very subtle changes to the sound of the amp. But I've only tried a few different Op Amps
> You can put in a Class A OPA627 or a standard OPA627 or (my favourite!) an LM4562 and NOT substantially change the sound of the M Stage.
> ...


 

 I disagree with the subtle changes with op-amp rolling, but i tried a dozen of them with this amp, that i have from my collection.


----------



## Chris J

verde57 said:


> How about OPA627AU on adapter, can it work with M-stage?





genclaymore said:


> I disagree with the subtle changes with op-amp rolling, but i tried a dozen of them with this amp, that i have from my collection.




Sure, you can use an OPA627AU on an adaptor with the M Stage.

What do you hear when you swap Op Amps in the M Stage? I don't hear massive difference, but YMMV.


----------



## genclaymore

It varies on which op-amps I am using or trying out at the time.  Each one I used in the Matrix M-stage did not sound like the default OPA2134 in the design. Which why I haven't put the Opa2134 back in.  As I know what they sound like and I don't like their sound signature.


----------



## Chris J

I don't head a lot of difference between Op Amps, but I prefer the extra openness and clarity I get from the LM4562 in the M Stage. 
But the amp still sounds like an M Stage.
YMMV


----------



## derbigpr

So it would appear that M-stage + Q701 work nicely together? How is the soundstage? Does bass get any better and does it help to get rid of sibilance?
   
  Is there anyone who could compare Little Dot Mk5 and Matrix M-stage?


----------



## F1REStarter

Hi all, need some help. I ordered the OPA627AP from Mouser.com and installed it in my Matrix, the volume is very low and mostly to the right channel, I have to really turn up the volume to hear anything. Though when I take the OPA627 out and install my usual OPA2107AP there are no problems.
  Here's the link to the opa627ap I bought from mouser:
   
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Texas-Instruments/OPA627AP/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMuo%252bmZx5g6tFKaLuFKBAeFl
   
  Is there something I need to know before or after installing the opa627ap? Did I get the wrong one, or is mine defective? Thanks..


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





f1restarter said:


> Hi all, need some help. I ordered the OPA627AP from Mouser.com and installed it in my Matrix, the volume is very low and mostly to the right channel, I have to really turn up the volume to hear anything. Though when I take the OPA627 out and install my usual OPA2107AP there are no problems.
> Here's the link to the opa627ap I bought from mouser:
> 
> http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Texas-Instruments/OPA627AP/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMuo%252bmZx5g6tFKaLuFKBAeFl
> ...


 


  You installed two of them?  Or just one?
   
  I think OPA267 is mono and you need two on a 2x1 adapter...


----------



## F1REStarter

Hmm I only installed one cause that's all i thought i needed, I think I'll ask that Tam guy who made the M-Stage what I should do


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





f1restarter said:


> Hmm I only installed one cause that's all i thought i needed, I think I'll ask that Tam guy who made the M-Stage what I should do


 


 You may have destroyed that OPA627, OP Amps don't usually like having their pins mixed and having power supply voltage driven into input or output pins. I'll take a look at the pin-outs when I get some spare time tonight.
   
  Sometimes I use OPA627s on the M, but they are on an adaptor board, 'cause two are required to replace the stock Op Amp which is a dual Op Amp.   The OPA627 is a single Op Amp.


----------



## F1REStarter

Quote: 





chris j said:


> You may have destroyed that OPA627, OP Amps don't usually like having their pins mixed and having power supply voltage driven into input or output pins. I'll take a look at the pin-outs when I get some spare time tonight.
> 
> Sometimes I use OPA627s on the M, but they are on an adaptor board, 'cause two are required to replace the stock Op Amp which is a dual Op Amp.   The OPA627 is a single Op Amp.


 
   
  Ok thanks for clearing that up. I currently have the OPA2107AP which is a dual difet opamp.. you only need one of those in the dip so I was kinda confused about the OPA627, thought it would pretty much be the same way.. oh well. I'll see if I can return the thing to Mouser and just get the OPA627AP with Class A Biasing mod from Tam's Audio.
   
  One more thing, how is the OPA627BP different from OPA627AP? is BP better? Tam's audio is temp out of stock of OPA627AP with Class A Bias mod and only has the BP version in stock, was thinking about getting BP if it's pretty much the same or better than AP. I live under a rock when it comes to this stuff really.. thanks for the help yo


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





f1restarter said:


> Ok thanks for clearing that up. I currently have the OPA2107AP which is a dual difet opamp.. you only need one of those in the dip so I was kinda confused about the OPA627, thought it would pretty much be the same way.. oh well. I'll see if I can return the thing to Mouser and just get the OPA627AP with Class A Biasing mod from Tam's Audio.
> 
> One more thing, how is the OPA627BP different from OPA627AP? is BP better? Tam's audio is temp out of stock of OPA627AP with Class A Bias mod and only has the BP version in stock, was thinking about getting BP if it's pretty much the same or better than AP. I live under a rock when it comes to this stuff really.. thanks for the help yo


 

  
  The BP is $40, which is too expensive IMO.  For me, opamp-rolling is too subtle to justify spending that much on one.  I got the LM4562 I'm currently using for about $3.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





f1restarter said:


> Ok thanks for clearing that up. I currently have the OPA2107AP which is a dual difet opamp.. you only need one of those in the dip so I was kinda confused about the OPA627, thought it would pretty much be the same way.. oh well. I'll see if I can return the thing to Mouser and just get the OPA627AP with Class A Biasing mod from Tam's Audio.
> 
> One more thing, how is the OPA627BP different from OPA627AP? is BP better? Tam's audio is temp out of stock of OPA627AP with Class A Bias mod and only has the BP version in stock, was thinking about getting BP if it's pretty much the same or better than AP. I live under a rock when it comes to this stuff really.. thanks for the help yo


 

 I agree with Chico The Man.
  Spending big bucks on variations of the OPA627 is a waste of $$$.
  For $3 the LM4562 is one of the finest Op Amps you can get for audio use.
  It is a direct replacement for the stock Op Amp.
  As a pre-cautionary measure, I would operate the LM4562 at a gain of +10 dB or +18 dB.
   
  I do not believe that you can return used Op Amps to Mouser.
  I think you've baked the OPA627 but I do like your Avatar


----------



## putente

Maybe this is a bit offtopic, as I don't own an M-Stage, but I do own a Cube which has socketed opamps (OPA2134 in the I/V stage and LM833 in the heaphone amp). I'd like to roll opamps on it, so would that LM4562 be a good choice to start? I guess, like in the M-Stage, it'd be a straight swap...


----------



## F1REStarter

Quote: 





chris j said:


> I agree with Chico The Man.
> Spending big bucks on variations of the OPA627 is a waste of $$$.
> For $3 the LM4562 is one of the finest Op Amps you can get for audio use.
> It is a direct replacement for the stock Op Amp.
> ...


 

 Hehe thanks for the suggestion. Got an LM4562 instead


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





chris j said:


> I think you've baked the OPA627 but I do like your Avatar


 


  Haha.  Replace the guy in my avatar with an opamp and that's what happened


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





putente said:


> Maybe this is a bit offtopic, as I don't own an M-Stage, but I do own a Cube which has socketed opamps (OPA2134 in the I/V stage and LM833 in the heaphone amp). I'd like to roll opamps on it, so would that LM4562 be a good choice to start? I guess, like in the M-Stage, it'd be a straight swap...


 


 Yes the OPA2134, LM833 and LM4562 are pin for pin compatible with each other.


----------



## putente

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Yes the OPA2134, LM833 and LM4562 are pin for pin compatible with each other.


 

 Thanks. I'll try to get my hands on some samples of the LM4562...


----------



## Dj Mark

Quote: 





project86 said:


> Thanks for the comments everyone, I appreciate it. Writing a review is hard work so it's nice to hear that my work is helpful and/or enjoyable.
> 
> As for the question about the Beyerdynamic DT990s: I do own a pair, and I have used them a bit with the M-Stage. It seemed to do a very good job although I didn't critically compare different amps. Note that my 990s are the 600ohm version, which is very different from the other 2 versions. But in my case, I find the M-Stage to give them excellent bass authority, smooth clear mids, and fairly extended but still relatively relaxed highs. Excellent dynamics. I guess you could say that they retain their characteristic sound signature, which is what I usually want an amp to do. You definately don't want an amp that smooths or recesses the treble energy with the 600ohm DT990s.
> 
> Hope that helps.


 
  Thanks, that helped me decide on buying the m-stage because i own the DT990/600 version and am going to buy the Q701's very soon do i need an amp that can do for both! just what i was looking for


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





dj mark said:


> Thanks, that helped me decide on buying the m-stage because i own the DT990/600 version and am going to buy the Q701's very soon do i need an amp that can do for both! just what i was looking for


 


 Good choice!
  I own a Matrix M Stage,  DT880/600 and Q701.
  The Matrix has no problem driving either headphone cleanly to any volume you would want.
  The M Stage even drives my 2,000 ohm Sennhiesers!


----------



## timothylihk

I am thinking about buying a Matrix m-stage USB version, just wondering will the change of OPamp void the warranty of the amp


----------



## Chris J

Matrix vendor Tam Audio sells Op Amps for the Matrix M Stage, I guess the implication is that Op Amp rolling is OK and doesn't void the warranty.
  You could always try e-mailing Tam Audio with your question.


----------



## -ToM-

Does anyone have any issues with 600ohm beyers distorting with anything above 0db gain? No matter what i set, there's huge bass distortion


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





-tom- said:


> Does anyone have any issues with 600ohm beyers distorting with anything above 0db gain? No matter what i set, there's huge bass distortion


 


 No,  I've used them at 0 dB, 10 dB and 18 dB of gain on my M Stage with no problems.
  I normally use my CD player as the source with output of CD player set to -5 dB (0 dB is full output).
  I'm using DT880 600 ohm.


----------



## -ToM-

believe it or not, swapped over my 1/4" adaptor with one off my sennys - issue gone!


----------



## raysclim1568

Need help to match my choice of amp and headphone 
   
  Amp : Matrix M-stage  / Nuforce Icon HDP
  Headphone : AKG Q701 / Grado RS1i 
   
  Which amp should pair with which Headphone based on my choice mentioned 
   
  Appreciated 
   
  Thanks 
  Raymond


----------



## Dj Mark

Quote: 





raysclim1568 said:


> Need help to match my choice of amp and headphone
> 
> Amp : Matrix M-stage  / Nuforce Icon HDP
> Headphone : AKG Q701 / Grado RS1i
> ...


 
  Well M-stage and Q701 are a great combo and I just ordered them my self. I have read tones of reviews pairing the two and all braging about the great results. dont know about the others though


----------



## verde57

I just thought of something, what if I put my Xonar ST output volume at a lower level than normal, lets say 40% and switch the gain from 10dB to 18dB on the Matrix, wouldn't be better for getting more from my M-stage amplification instead of Xonar's amplification?


----------



## headAchievment

hello guys,
   
  im not quite sure if this is the right thread, but i didn't find a better one 
  does any of you use the matrix m-stage usb and tried it with the iPad? Does it work?
   
  best regards
  headAchievement


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





headachievment said:


> hello guys,
> 
> im not quite sure if this is the right thread, but i didn't find a better one
> does any of you use the matrix m-stage usb and tried it with the iPad? Does it work?
> ...


 


  I don't know how much power the iPad USB ports give.  They may not be powered USB ports, or may just not have enough power.


----------



## KimLaroux

Quote: 





chicolom said:


> I don't know how much power the iPad USB ports give.  They may not be powered USB ports, or may just not have enough power.


 


  Are you implying the USB version of the M-stage can be powered only trough USB?


----------



## mikeaj

Quote: 





verde57 said:


> I just thought of something, what if I put my Xonar ST output volume at a lower level than normal, lets say 40% and switch the gain from 10dB to 18dB on the Matrix, wouldn't be better for getting more from my M-stage amplification instead of Xonar's amplification?


 

 First off, in general, use as little gain as necessary.  Most devices will perform better (though maybe not significantly different) on lower gain settings.  In the very least, you should expect lower noise on the lower gain setting.  Also, by lowering the volume on the sound card side, you're not actually changing anything about the way it's handling the amplification at all.  That kind of volume control is all digital--you're just scaling down all the samples sent to the DAC (so dividing, which is throwing bits away), so the output is smaller.  Essence ST should have no problem at all with a max volume signal at 100% volume, though that's not always the case with every device.  Thus you'll get a cleaner output at 100% volume as opposed to 40% volume.  I would expect the difference to be mostly academic though.
   

      Quote:


chicolom said:


> I don't know how much power the iPad USB ports give.  They may not be powered USB ports, or may just not have enough power.


 

 IIRC these ports are more like 100 mA instead of the standard 500 mA.  Regardless, the USB here is just for data, not power, unless I'm very mistaken.  CEntrance DACport seems to be about the most powerful USB bus-powered device out there, with a 3.06V output.  FiiO E10 gets to about 2.6V.  I'm sure if you wanted you could get something a little bit more powerful, but it's a struggle just working from the dirty +5V and GND from USB, with the 500 mA limit.


----------



## Satellite_6

It seems my M-Stage has stopped amplifying, it just transmits the signal weather on or off. Is there a likely or obvious culprit? Has anyone had experience with the claiming the warranty?
   
  Thanks. . .


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





verde57 said:


> I just thought of something, what if I put my Xonar ST output volume at a lower level than normal, lets say 40% and switch the gain from 10dB to 18dB on the Matrix, wouldn't be better for getting more from my M-stage amplification instead of Xonar's amplification?


 


 It would probably only make the signal to noise ratio worse.
  There would probably no real benefit.


----------



## rictee

I currently have a Matrix Cube.  Wondering how the new M-Stage's DAC compare to it?
   
  Also, how much difference is there between their AMP section?
   
  Sounds like people are liking their K/Q701 with the M-Stage.  Anyone paired it with the K601 (which I assume is harder to drive)?


----------



## justaguy

I recently bought the m-stage, connected it to Cube through RCA cable and if I turn the volume knob upper then 10 o'clock the hiss is highly audible. It's completely silent if I listen to music through Cube only. And the hiss seems to reflect everything what happens in my laptop and especially when I touch the Cube's usb cable I hear the distortions..
 I gave it some time cause I remember somebody said he had this kind of problem and then it's gone on it's own but I don't see any improvements so far..
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 little help for noob please..


----------



## headAchievment

No I don't think that it's powered throgh USB but I also thoght that the E17 would work with the IPad when USB-charge is turned off but it doesn't! It still needs to much power which the IPad can't handle. If there were no Problems usind DAC/Amps (even those with external power supply) a thread like http://www.head-fi.org/t/507559/list-of-dacs-that-work-with-ipad wouldn't be necessary 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  Before i gonna buy the M-Stage it would be nice to know whether it works or not.
   
  Did anyone actually try it?
   
  Edit: I was replying to this post: http://www.head-fi.org/t/475618/matrix-m-stage-amp-review-simple-cheap-and-excellent/2685#post_8222812 of KimLaroux


----------



## Chris J

Is the Matrix M Stage Gain set to 10 dB?
  If you are still using the stock Op Amp, try setting the M Stage Gain to 0 dB.

  
  Quote: 





justaguy said:


> I recently bought the m-stage, connected it to Cube through RCA cable and if I turn the volume knob upper then 10 o'clock the hiss is highly audible. It's completely silent if I listen to music through Cube only. And the hiss seems to reflect everything what happens in my laptop and especially when I touch the Cube's usb cable I hear the distortions..
> I gave it some time cause I remember somebody said he had this kind of problem and then it's gone on it's own but I don't see any improvements so far..
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## justaguy

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Is the Matrix M Stage Gain set to 10 dB?
> If you are still using the stock Op Amp, try setting the M Stage Gain to 0 dB.


 
  thank you for your reply!
 I set it to 0 db and still had the hiss, only after I tried 20 db it's gone. The amp is too quiet now though...
 yeah I'm using the stock opams, should I change them and which can you recommend?? I know it was for sure discussed many times here but the entire thread is too big I just do not have enough time to go through


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





justaguy said:


> thank you for your reply!
> I set it to 0 db and still had the hiss, only after I tried 20 db it's gone. The amp is too quiet now though...


 


  Sounds like your reading the dip switches backwards...


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





justaguy said:


> thank you for your reply!
> I set it to 0 db and still had the hiss, only after I tried 20 db it's gone. The amp is too quiet now though...
> yeah I'm using the stock opams, should I change them and which can you recommend?? I know it was for sure discussed many times here but the entire thread is too big I just do not have enough time to go through


 


 I agree, this thread is immense!
  My favourite Op Amp is the LM4562.
  You can buy is for a few bucks from Mouser or Newark.
  A lot of guys like the OP627 kit you can buy from Tam Audio, but I prefer the LM4562.  I just think it's a real clear, clean Op Amp.
   
  You can try using the "Search this Thread" at the top of the thread if you want to get other opinions.
   
   
  Quote: 





chicolom said:


> Sounds like your reading the dip switches backwards...


 

 I agree, sounds like you really have the gain set to 0 dB!  So you probably have the volume control at approx. 2 or 3 o'clock.  Which is not a problem.

 Sigh...............everyone reads the dip switches backwards once!
  It's part of being a Matrix M Stage owner, isn't it!   It's part of the initiation to the club!  LOL!




   
  Chico's avatar represents how pi$$od off he was when he realized he had the DIP switches set backwards.


----------



## danielbarakat

just ordered the M-Stage without the USB DAC for my Q701.  Can I use my Fiio E7 with a L7 (to get the E7 in DAC only mode)? 
   
  Has anyone compared the E7 DAC to the M-Stage DAC on a AKG K or Q701??
   
  Do I need a better DAC to go with the M-Stage?  If so, I'd really like to keep it under $200.
   
  Spent the entire day looking at head fi forums.


----------



## nsx280ps

I would suggest trying the E7 and see how it fares, but if ur looking to upgrade it seems this has really good reviews around here for the price:
   
   
  http://www.amazon.com/HRT-Music-Streamer-II-Resolution/dp/B0038O4UFQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1331789854&sr=8-1
   
  Quote: 





danielbarakat said:


> just ordered the M-Stage without the USB DAC for my Q701.  Can I use my Fiio E7 with a L7 (to get the E7 in DAC only mode)?
> 
> Has anyone compared the E7 DAC to the M-Stage DAC on a AKG K or Q701??
> 
> ...


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





danielbarakat said:


> just ordered the M-Stage without the USB DAC for my Q701.  Can I use my Fiio E7 with a L7 (to get the E7 in DAC only mode)?
> 
> Has anyone compared the E7 DAC to the M-Stage DAC on a AKG K or Q701??
> 
> ...


 

 I've compared the E10 to the M-stage DAC if you look at my profile > threads started.  I haven't heard the E7.  I currently use the HRT Music Streamer II, which is $150.


----------



## danielbarakat

HRT Streamer for $150 is more than tolerable.
   
  So, HRT Streamer - M-Stage - Q701 is good enough for a high fidelity experience?  Can I finally stop searching for audio gear and start enjoying my music??  LOL


----------



## WestLander

Not to multiply your decisions here, but I would check out the Audinst HUD-MX1 (~$180) as well. I have it feeding my M-Stage and I like the combo a lot. It's usb powered, has a decent headphone amp (opamp rollable, too), and has an optical out so you could use it as a transport for a better dac down the road.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





danielbarakat said:


> just ordered the M-Stage without the USB DAC for my Q701.  Can I use my Fiio E7 with a L7 (to get the E7 in DAC only mode)?
> 
> Has anyone compared the E7 DAC to the M-Stage DAC on a AKG K or Q701??
> 
> ...


 


 I hope this isn't too off topic, but I often use my M Stage with an iBasso D12 and my Q701s.
  Usually I use the USB port, the system sounds good to me. It's a good clean sounding DAC, surprised me how good it was for the money.
  For $200 iBasso makes a few DACs you might like.


----------



## danielbarakat

So many decisions.  I'll decide by the time my M-Stage arrives.  
   
  Thanks for all the help guys


----------



## verde57

I'm now using: Xonar ST--- Matrix M-Stage---- AKG Q701 with LME79990 in I/V and OPA627AU in buffer, for M-stage I'm using another OPA627AU.
  This setup is pretty good, with OPA627AU instead of LM4562 in M-stage  I have  better volume control , its more gradual and the sound less fatiguing  at high volumes, I noticed better control in high freq and more clear sound.
  I'm not sure whats the input of LME49990 in all of this, I have to listen this opa separately maybe put it the M-stage and 627 in the Xonar and listen.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





verde57 said:


> This setup is pretty good, with OPA627AU instead of LM4562 in M-stage  I have  better volume control , its more gradual and the sound less fatiguing  at high volumes, I noticed better control in high freq and more clear sound.
> I'm not sure whats the input of LME49990 in all of this, I have to listen this opa separately maybe put it the M-stage and 627 in the Xonar and listen.


 

 Great to hear the Op Amos are working out for you!
  Changing the Op Amp may change the sound a bit, but it will not change the charactristics of the operation of the volume control.


----------



## justaguy

Quote: 





chicolom said:


> Sounds like your reading the dip switches backwards...


 
  Quote: 





chris j said:


> I agree, this thread is immense!
> My favourite Op Amp is the LM4562.
> You can buy is for a few bucks from Mouser or Newark.
> A lot of guys like the OP627 kit you can buy from Tam Audio, but I prefer the LM4562.  I just think it's a real clear, clean Op Amp.
> ...


 
   
  thank you guys! it's unusual cause I just set switches according to the picture below them. and I'll try LM4562 it's just few bucks..
 for now M-stage is too dark for me, maybe because pro900 is an already dark headphones. so it's like multiplied darkness))) I also feel like it's a bit too powerful for 40 Oms phones.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





justaguy said:


> thank you guys! it's unusual cause I just set switches according to the picture below them. and I'll try LM4562 it's just few bucks..
> for now M-stage is too dark for me, maybe because pro900 is an already dark headphones. so it's like multiplied darkness))) I also feel like it's a bit too powerful for 40 Oms phones.


 

 The Darkness thing, yes, I agree, the M Stage is a bit on the dark side, the more Ilisten to it, the more I hear the darkness.  On the recommendation of a friend, I'm going to get an Objective 2.  He told me the Objective 2 is a more open (brighter or more neutral) amp than the M Stage.
   
  The Matrix M Stage is actually designed to drive headphones of any impedance from 32 ohms right up to 2,000 ohms.
  However it may have a bit too much gain for very sensitive headpones. I have heard some people say this amp is not suitable for IEM.  What problem are you having with 40 ohm 'phones? Too much volume?  Running volume control down at 9 o'clock and getting poor channel balance?  Too much hiss?
  Try setting the Gain to 0 dB, just make sure you are using the stock Op Amp when you set the gain to 0 dB.  I would not gaurantee tat the M Stage is stable at 0 dB gain with an LM4562.


----------



## justaguy

Quote: 





chris j said:


> The Darkness thing, yes, I agree, the M Stage is a bit on the dark side, the more Ilisten to it, the more I hear the darkness.  On the recommendation of a friend, I'm going to get an Objective 2.  He told me the Objective 2 is a more open (brighter or more neutral) amp than the M Stage.
> 
> The Matrix M Stage is actually designed to drive headphones of any impedance from 32 ohms right up to 2,000 ohms.
> However it may have a bit too much gain for very sensitive headpones. I have heard some people say this amp is not suitable for IEM.  What problem are you having with 40 ohm 'phones? Too much volume?  Running volume control down at 9 o'clock and getting poor channel balance?  Too much hiss?
> Try setting the Gain to 0 dB, just make sure you are using the stock Op Amp when you set the gain to 0 dB.  I would not gaurantee tat the M Stage is stable at 0 dB gain with an LM4562.


 
   
  the problem is hiss and distortions transmitted from laptop when music is not playing. if I exclude M-stage and listen to Cube (DAC) only there is nothing, it's completely silent without music.
 the second thing is with acquisition of M-stage I do not feel any real improvements compare with Cube only with its internal amp but rather the change in music presentation to darker, warmer, a bit deeper and more liquid. Cube alone sounds more open, airy, more "in your face" and details are more evident because the sound itself is brighter. But this all is just my perception of course.
  so lets see what the replacement of Op Amps will do...


----------



## Dj Mark

Quote: 





justaguy said:


> thank you guys! it's unusual cause I just set switches according to the picture below them. and I'll try LM4562 it's just few bucks..
> for now M-stage is too dark for me, maybe because pro900 is an already dark headphones. so it's like multiplied darkness))) I also feel like it's a bit too powerful for 40 Oms phones.


 


  What do you consider as dark? I dont understand the terminology


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





justaguy said:


> the problem is hiss and distortions transmitted from laptop when music is not playing. if I exclude M-stage and listen to Cube (DAC) only there is nothing, it's completely silent without music.
> the second thing is with acquisition of M-stage I do not feel any real improvements compare with Cube only with its internal amp but rather the change in music presentation to darker, warmer, a bit deeper and more liquid. Cube alone sounds more open, airy, more "in your face" and details are more evident because the sound itself is brighter. But this all is just my perception of course.
> so lets see what the replacement of Op Amps will do...


 

 I assume you are saying you take a USB cable from the computer to the Cube, then you take an analog output from the Cube to the M Stage and you get his and distortions?
  I can only suggest try setting the gain on the M Stage to 0 dB.  Have you tried that?
  Not too sure what else I can add, I'm not really a computer guy.
   
  Your comments on the Cube do not surprise me.  I don't hear MASSIVE!! improvements from one amp to another either.  LOL!
  I've changed Op Amps in my M Stage a few times, the sound changes a bit, but it still sounds like an M Stage.
  I like your description of the Cube, it sounds like an amp that I would like the sound of, I like the sound of airy, open, detailed and in yo' face amps.
  But I also like warm, soft, buttery tube amps sometimes.




  I need a good psychologist!


----------



## Guess?

Quote: 





chris j said:


> I need a good psychologist!


 


  ahahaha maybe we all do


----------



## rictee

Quote: 





justaguy said:


> the second thing is with acquisition of M-stage I do not feel any real improvements compare with Cube only with its internal amp but rather the change in music presentation to darker, warmer, a bit deeper and more liquid. Cube alone sounds more open, airy, more "in your face" and details are more evident because the sound itself is brighter. But this all is just my perception of course.
> so lets see what the replacement of Op Amps will do...


 

 Interesting. I'm thinking of getting an M-stage to substitute amp of Cube too, not quite sure how much of an improvement it would be.  Could be because the Cube could already satisfy your PRO900 amplification.  Would like to hear about your Opamp replacements!


----------



## justaguy

Originally Posted by *Dj Mark* /img/forum/go_quote.gif


> What do you consider as dark? I dont understand the terminology


 
   
   
  wow that's difficult to explain for me... maybe... a bit of recessed sound especially upper mids and hights, overall the sound is like distant, but soft and not fatiguing.
    
   


chris j said:


> I assume you are saying you take a USB cable from the computer to the Cube, then you take an analog output from the Cube to the M Stage and you get his and distortions?
> I can only suggest try setting the gain on the M Stage to 0 dB.  Have you tried that?
> Not too sure what else I can add, I'm not really a computer guy.
> 
> ...


 

 yeah your assumptions are right, setting the gain to 0 helps but distortions are still there with upper positions of volume knob.
 Cube actually has a very decent amp, I just assume it wont be as good with high impedance phones.  with low impedance ones it performs very well.
  which Op Amps have you liked the most Chris?

 Originally Posted by *rictee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif


> Interesting. I'm thinking of getting an M-stage to substitute amp of Cube too, not quite sure how much of an improvement it would be.  Could be because the Cube could already satisfy your PRO900 amplification.  Would like to hear about your Opamp replacements!


 

 it was a big question for me when I was considering to buy the M-stage. Cube is very good with pro900 alone now I know it. but what phones do you have? I mean maybe it would be different for you


----------



## rictee

Quote: 





justaguy said:


> it was a big question for me when I was considering to buy the M-stage. Cube is very good with pro900 alone now I know it. but what phones do you have? I mean maybe it would be different for you


 
  I have AKG K601, I think it is considered much harder to drive. Cube has no problem with volume but I keep thinking SQ is not as well as it could be for the AKG.  M-stage seems like a cheap upgrade but wondering how much of an upgrade it would be - might as well go $100-200 more for better amps.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





rictee said:


> Interesting. I'm thinking of getting an M-stage to substitute amp of Cube too, not quite sure how much of an improvement it would be.  Could be because the Cube could already satisfy your PRO900 amplification.  Would like to hear about your Opamp replacements!


 

  
  This answer also goes to "Justaguy"
  
  My favourite M Stage Op Amp is the LM4562. A bit more open, a bit clearer. It is subtle, though.
  In addition, it is far cheaper than any OPA627 Op Amp ugrade.
_Personally_, as I have said before, you can improve the M Stage by putting in an LM4562, but the M Stage still sounds like an M Stage.
  Just my opinion folks..............
   
  I would think that the Cube should be fine with virtually any High Impedance 'phone, unless it is a fairly insensitive 'phone.
  I would expect the Cube to be able to drive the 600 or 250 ohm DT770, 880 & 990 series. Those Beyers are not that hard to drive for a desktop amp.
   
  BTW, Justaguy, I like your description of a "Dark" sounding amp, I agree.


----------



## Dj Mark

Quote: 





justaguy said:


> Originally Posted by *Dj Mark* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> 
> wow that's difficult to explain for me... maybe... a bit of recessed sound especially upper mids and hights, overall the sound is like distant, but soft and not fatiguing.
> ...


 

 your explanation of dark sounds very like my dt990's600ohm version, good explanation, so basicalu a bit more emphasis on the low side but not a bad emphasis. or something like that


----------



## justaguy

I'm glad you guys like my definition of dark sound.
 I ordered LM4562 few days ago for $6.95 shipped (to Australia) from here http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/National-Semiconductor-LM4562-dual-high-performance-high-fidelity-audio-op-amp-/260898916323?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cbec987e3#ht_680wt_1139
  will post my impressions hopefully soon


----------



## Personnel Jezuz

Hi guys, need a little help with an amp upgrade.
  Currently using an HRT Music Streamer II hooked to a macbook pro, and powered by a head stage arrow 2.3g to my loverly Denon D5000, and looking to upgrade to a more serious amp. 
  a) Will I enjoy a good bump in sound clarity, stage and overall timbre with the m-stage or similar? 
  b) I REALLY enjoy the bass boost feature on the arrow, almost always on. Also the cross feed settings on occasion for old recordings. Is there any way of maintaining the bass feature as well as upgrading the amp? Could I use the arrow with the m-stage for example, or is there a desktop option with similar functions and options in sound mod?


----------



## danielbarakat

What are the recommended gain settings for the M-Stage and Q701s?  I got mine on 10.  Is that good?


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





danielbarakat said:


> What are the recommended gain settings for the M-Stage and Q701s?  I got mine on 10.  Is that good?


 


  That's what I use ^  The volume level on the m-stage is around 12 o'clock that way.


----------



## headhog

I'm not very good at describing gear so i'll just use an image.
   

  ^
  Matrix m-stage


----------



## TheMiddleSky

@^
  Dark background with bright midrange?


----------



## headhog

^
  No just a really awesome controlled sound.


----------



## KimLaroux

Quote: 





headhog said:


> I'm not very good at describing gear so i'll just use an image.
> 
> 
> ^
> Matrix m-stage


 
   
  RGB Histogram :

   
  Yep, does sound like the M-stage.


----------



## Chris J

How about warm and dark?


----------



## CantScareMe

Just a quick few words about this amp. I've never really been impressed with amps/dacs in the past that much. Too big, bulky, noisy and very often faulty. This ones quite good though. Plus i've had it for a week so my impressions are set.
   
   
Why i bought the m stage
  - Dimensions: I could just about make a rig with this amp and a hrt streamer that would fit on my desk AND allow just about enough room for reading/studying with a4 sized papers! I know, very tiight space here, but the 11cm width of the m stage meant i could put this thing sideways and it'll fit.
   
  -DAC: finally they put in a dac. I don't use this dac it for music listening, but when watching tv shows from the pc you really need a lowly resolving dac (with decent headphones). Very convenient.
   
  -k701/ denon d7k: It's meant to be good with these phones. I haven't got the k701 but i have the k550 so i though it'd be good for it.
   
  -Bad alternatives: Alternatives are usually not dimensionally friendly with me. The nfb 12 is okay. I've got the fiio's and they are as reliable as one could want. Some furutech I was looking at has bad usb noises- as does apparently the burson 160ds. There is the o2 (usa to uk shipping on electronic goods absolutely kills it. Massive vat/customs/duties/holding fees. Legal robbery that makes illegal robbers jealous). There are other smaller amps, ibasso's and what not. I've dipped into this market a bit and have come out -£500. Not impressed with the amplification performances with these small devices. Nuforce hdp is a badly made product in my experience. Buying of registered dealers, this thing failed me a few times. A few others, like arcam and i can't remember had similar flaws. Literally just a waste of money and time.
   
   
How i bought the m stage
  Tam audio with class a opamp mod. Delivered to the uk literally within 8 days!! Fast and great serivice. I think this is relevant to point out in it's own section as I didn't expect this much of a fast shipment from these guys.
   
   
Dac: HRT music streamer II
  -SQ: Some reviewer (think it's chicolom) reviewed this against the fiio e10 and in built matrix m stage dac. I have to say that i've lightly tested them amongst each other and I fully agree with what chicolom says. I'd say though that the hrt streamer 2 beats the fiio e10 by a bigger margin than what was said in that review. Really great little thing. It vastly improves the fiio e10/e9 setup when replacing the e10 as a dac. Awesome dac. This is true with all headphones. However, the fiio e9 wasn't great with the denon d7k, so I wanted something else.
   
  - Problems + setup. I had something from hrt before and i had problems so got rid of it. I got this slightly cheaper, so if i was to have similar problems- i won't really care. Well documented these problems are that mainly relate to popping noises from foobar playback:
FOOBAR + WASAPI  (NO, NO)
FOOBAR + ASIO (NO, YES)
  J RIVER + WASAP (YES, NO)
  J RIVER + ASIO (YES, YES) !!!!
   
  So you see, j river plus asio is the only thing that works on this. Plus i recommend, as a headfier on one of the hrt problems thread suggested, to use a powered external usb hub. I use the exact one he recommended ('dlink 4 port' something something...??) and get absolutely no problems at all. I'm even using a crappy netbook, with the usb hub connected to it via a 5m shielded usb a-b cable. I then only just have to use a 30cm belkin usb cable out of the hrt streamer into the hub. Half decent (£15) rca 50cm cables from the hrt to the m stage, and your done. I'm not advocating high performance cables here- i'm just saying avoid the cheapest ones you could find as these often have problems not related to hifi that you don't want to get stuck into.
   
   
M stage and hrt streamer II paring, Headohones:
  As of yet i've only tried the ones below and the denon d2k.
AKG k550
  YEA!! Nice. It obliterates the nfb 12. Just a complete improvement, taking this headphone past the d2k easily. For trance (e.g avb 'a state of trance 200X mixes') and classical (e.g brandenburg concertos), the k550 easily sounds better than the d7k. Just so much faster with better attack and decay. There's obviously more a sense of air too which is vital for this music. Great sound
  You've quite a *lot* more bass, controlled highs and most of all the soundstage becomes more full. More surrounding and enveloping.
   
  I't doesn't change my impression of the akg. As i said it improves definitely with amping- why wouldn't it??
   
  Please- akg k550 flamers stay away. I can't be bothered with you any more!!
  Most headfiers hate this phone, I know. So I can never and will never recommend it to anyone. So for all practical purposes- this is an awful phone- stay away....
   
   
Denon d7000
  I wasn't impressed that much by the fiio e9 with this. It didn't sound good with the e9 (even with the hrt as the dac. It's a massive improvement coming from the e9 to this with the denon's. That's not to say that the denon's benefit from amping- it's probably that the e9 isn't a good match. The e9 was decent enough for the k550 for example..
   
  Anyway, it is great with this as people have mentioned. It really pulls way way ahead of the d2k here. Lets say that in terms of sound quality:
   
  from an unamped mp3 player   d2k = 2 points            d7k = 3 points
  fiio e10, e9                             d2k = 3 points            d7k = 7 points
  hrt, e9                                    d2k = 5 points            d7k = 14 points
  hrt, m stage                            d2k = 7 points            d7k = 25 points
   
  Something like that. Don't be offended at how i've been able to use numbers to pinpoint the permanently abstract and subjective concept of sound quality, 'cos i haven't pinpointed anything. It's just very loose to illustrate the point.
   
  Of course i prefer this headphone to the k550 overall, but not in trance and classical. Actually it's interesting that i read the d7k performs *WILDLY* good with a few albums. Some kind of weird match, i don't know.
  I have to say that I found this out for myself- by complete accident really. Randomly I played mike oldfields 'the song of distant earth' and it was awesome. I mean the last track, ascension, I think it's called, was _completely _brilliant. Probably the most wowing experience i've ever had on headfi- and i'm not the one who has these types of feelings all the time. Very Rarely in fact. I think the last time (also the first time) was when I upgraded from the senn cx300 to the shure se310 (using cowon bbe equalisers). 3 years ago. 
   
   
   
M stage problems??
  - Volume knob.
  It's not my settings but i can barely tell the difference between 0db gain and say 18db, in that i have to turn the volume know pretty much to the same position each time (4 oclock). Mind you when at the 'off position' it's at 1 oclock so i've got to be very careful when adjusting the volume- slightly this way or that way changes the volume too radically for my liking.
   
  - Heat
  If i play music for 6 hours continuously, this thing is too hot to touch. If i put my hand on it for 5 seconds, after the 6th i have to take it off. It's almost like a hob that you've switched off 2 miniutes ago. Normal????
  The nfb 12 gets hot too- but not this much.
  Nothings wrong with my power or anything.
   
  But yea, the reason why i mention this is two fold:
  Firstly, this changes the sound slightly. There's an easily detectable change in sibilance with the d7k from using it at the start of the day (cold surface) to what it sounds like at the end of the day (very hot surface). What i'm talking about applied strongly at the first listening session with the matrix (last week), but it still applies allbeit a bit less.
   
  Secondly- fire hazard. I know that there's not that much flammable material near where you guys place your amps, but this warning holds. If i leave it on for a day, with written papers over it- they'll probably catch fire. Just keep tissue boxes away and remember to switch it off after use.
   
   
   
  That's it really. I tried to knock this mini review up as fast as i can- exam period coming soon!!


----------



## mrAdrian

Should I worry about impedance mismatch if I decide to go with the m-stage for my D2k? Otherwise my second choice would be a Meier Audio Arietta (Or, stay with my E9)...
   
  Who has any impressions of the arietta, I've searched everywhere already.


----------



## CantScareMe

can't edit the post above from my phone! 

I just saw the red dot on the volume module now (there's a black one opposite on the volume knob itself that confused me). Anyway, if say half past six is the position of zero volume, then 8:30 is the maximum i can go up to with both the d7k and the k550. Set at 0db gain. not much different than the 10db gain.

Clearly somethings wrong



okay, embraced to blow my denon, no akg (cheaper) drivers, i try 20db gain. What the.... I can comfortably go up to 11 o clock.

LOL! on my unit the've reversed this setting without telling me! Something's upside down somewhere inside as i followed the gain switch instructions on the sticker and p11 of the manual. 
It'll probably heat less now that i'm going to be using true 10 or 0db settings....

Easy to forgive them for this.


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





cantscareme said:


> okay, embraced to blow my denon, no akg (cheaper) drivers, i try 20db gain. What the.... I can comfortably go up to 11 o clock.


 


  Thanks for the review!
   
  I think you may be reading the gain switches wrong.  Most people do this at one point or another (myself included) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.
  On the manual and the bottom of the M-stage, the white squares indicate where the gain switches should be.  A lot of people think they should match the switches positions to the black squares and then they get it reversed.


----------



## CantScareMe

RED FACE

lol, you're right!

I was thinking that if it were a mistake by matrix then it would have been an uncanny ultra precise mistake to make. On purpose rather.

Yea, it's just that on the actual underside they only use the color white with them plastic switches- no black at all as is shown on the manual. Makes it confusing a bit. 
Using 10db gain btw for my headphones. Awesome sound in a compact package.


----------



## KimLaroux

I'm just curious. When you switched to lower gain, did it really make a difference on the heat coming from the unit? I would guess it doesn't change much. I bet most of the heat comes from the power supply itself. 
   
  Don't you have the latest revision, the one with the holes in the case?


----------



## the search never ends

I don't think the M Stage gets any warmer than the asgard.  They are both pretty warm, I don't own as Asgard, but have never been able to find a surface temp on the M Stage at anywhere near 300 degrees, which is still far from the ignition point of anything you might have as far as paper laying around, it could melt wax maybe. I rember the Asgard having very similar temps.  If you know someone with an infrared thermometer, ask them to shoot the hottest spots on the amp.
   
  Paper ignites at 451 degrees F
   
  Edit: I have noticed here and elswhere people trading Asgards and to a lesser degree M Stage for cooler running amps.


----------



## CantScareMe

yeah, mine have the vents. The gain probably will have an insignificant affect on the heat overall- no way of me telling for sure. But definitely after 6 hours it is too hot to touch- volume knob heats up as well.


Some (older) tv's would heat up when left on stanby overnight. Many times, i've heard, this would cause the house to go up in flames as people in their living rooms would leave flammable material like tissues and stuff near to it.

It's not as if the unit acts as a fire instantly causing something to go up in flames It's continuous concentrated heat exposure that would be the cause. Anyway, i won't be doing anything silly with this amp so no problem here.


----------



## KimLaroux

It gets that hot even with the vents? That's quite disturbing... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
   
  You might have a faulty unit.


----------



## kyoshiro

mine never gets hot to the point that I can't touch it and mines with the class A bias mod with vents


----------



## CantScareMe

yea probably.

Anyway, i won't use it for more than 6 hrs at a time, so it's okay.


----------



## Personnel Jezuz

Its the combination of designed in China & made in China thats putting me off buying.


----------



## kyoshiro

i do leave mine on for long periods of time though as I route my speakers through it as my sound card does RCA out (onkyo se-300) and then use the output to my speakers so when i plug in my hd600, it auto swaps 
  i once tried leaving it on for like 2 days straight and it wasnt hot enough that I couldnt touch it at all.


----------



## headhog

Quote: 





personnel jezuz said:


> Its the combination of designed in China & made in China thats putting me off buying.


 


  It's a well made unit go for it!


----------



## chicolom

Mine never gets "hot", only warm after several hours.  And it is surprisingly solid and well made, for an amp made in China.


----------



## CantScareMe

I reckon that it may be because i'm using it in a slightly tight space, heat issues become exasperated. One long side is 2 inches from the back wall although other sides are exposed to air. Plus, I think it's summer in sunny central London!!!
So my rooms around 25c. 

I'll probably play around with positioning a bit, see if that works. It's never hot enough to burn your hands or anything like that. It's just that after 5/6 seconds it's uncomfortably hot to leave your (my) hand on. like a kettle or toaster that just finished it's duty a few minutes ago. Or i just might be more sensitive to these things than you guys....less thicker skin on the palm of my hands....i don't know!

Anyway, it sounds great so there's no doubt it works. I remember reading someone else say that the sound slightly changes when it warms up- what i also experienced a few times.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





cantscareme said:


> It'll probably heat less now that i'm going to be using true 10 or 0db settings....
> Easy to forgive them for this.


 


 Hi,  
  0, 10 18 or 20 dBs,  it makes NO difference to how much heat the M throws off.
   
  Quote: 





kimlaroux said:


> I'm just curious. When you switched to lower gain, did it really make a difference on the heat coming from the unit? I would guess it doesn't change much. I bet most of the heat comes from the power supply itself.
> 
> Don't you have the latest revision, the one with the holes in the case?


 


 Yes,
  Most of the heat comes from the power supply regulators
  Some also comes from the Class A output stage.
  If you use a Class A biased Op Amp it makes very difference to how much heat is thrown off by the Stage.
  
  Quote: 





cantscareme said:


> yeah, mine have the vents. The gain probably will have an insignificant affect on the heat overall- no way of me telling for sure. But definitely after 6 hours it is too hot to touch- volume knob heats up as well.
> Some (older) tv's would heat up when left on stanby overnight. Many times, i've heard, this would cause the house to go up in flames as people in their living rooms would leave flammable material like tissues and stuff near to it.
> It's not as if the unit acts as a fire instantly causing something to go up in flames It's continuous concentrated heat exposure that would be the cause. Anyway, i won't be doing anything silly with this amp so no problem here.


 


 DO NOT put this amp in a confined space, it needs room to "breathe",  i.e. all heat has to go somewhere.
  If I read your stuff properly, it sounds like you got the Stage stuffed in a small space and put papers on top of it?
*Don't do that, fire hazard.*   Best outcome is it shortens the life of the M.   Worst outcome, lots of smoke, etc  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  As they say, "don't try this at home, kids!"
   
  BTW, I find the sound changes after I've had a few drinks!  LOL


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





mradrian said:


> Should I worry about impedance mismatch if I decide to go with the m-stage for my D2k? Otherwise my second choice would be a Meier Audio Arietta (Or, stay with my E9)...
> 
> Who has any impressions of the arietta, I've searched everywhere already.


 

 Wow!
  The Denon has an impedance of 25 ohms?
  Ideally it would be nice to get an amp with an output impedance of 2 ohms or less, but the Matrix will probably be OK.  I've never tried the Denons so YMMV.


----------



## Frank I

The Matrix and D7K are very good and have great synergy. Had the combo couple years ago and it was fantastic


----------



## CasperCasper

Any experiences from people with the D2k / m-stage combo?
  Waiting on D2k's in the post so keen to know..


----------



## TooManyCrabs

Anyone know if the DAC M-Stage is any good? I'm currently using an Audinst HUD-mx1 for both DAC and AMP, and I'm considering getting an M-Stage. Should I replace my HUD-mx1 with a DAC M-Stage or keep it as a DAC and just get the normal M-Stage as an AMP?


----------



## Fearless1

Quote: 





caspercasper said:


> Any experiences from people with the D2k / m-stage combo?
> Waiting on D2k's in the post so keen to know..


 


  
  I use my M-stage with my D-5000s and the mixture  works well together. I change the OPA to the  LM4562NA from the OPA627AP x 2 on a class A biasing adapter that I run for my other cans whenever I use my Denons, a subtle change but one I appreciate to tame the highs of them.   To answer your question, I think you will be happy with  that combination.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





fearless1 said:


> I use my M-stage with my D-5000s and the mixture  works well together. I change the OPA to the  LM4562NA from the OPA627AP x 2 on a class A biasing adapter that I run for my other cans whenever I use my Denons, a subtle change but one I appreciate to tame the highs of them.   To answer your question, I think you will be happy with  that combination.


 


 Big +1 for the LM4562!   I agree, a slight but worthwhile improvement over the OPA627 Class A and non-Class A.


----------



## CantScareMe

it's not in a tight space and i don't stack papers on them! One side is 2/3 inches from a wall. All the other sides are fully exposed. I don't stack anything on them- but it's at my desk so a few loose writing papers are often near enough.

Plus i do use it with the denons. Great combination this is. Massive bass of the d2k really comes through. The denons have a flat impedance curve so a 5 ohm output although ideal for cans roughly above 40 ohms won't introduce much bad effects if used with the 25ohm denons. I'm going to probably put in that opamp instead of the opa627 as well- denon d7k is a touch bright but the d2k's are fine for some reason. It dont require a soldering iron (does it???) as my matrix was tam audios one that comes with an opamp mod pre installed. Hopefully it's like replacing a lightbulb...

Ps- had anyone measured these denons to be like this impedance wise (25 ohm) or is it just.manufacturer specs were going by? Denon got the weight of their cans wrong (see my profile album) and so too with the material of padding.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





cantscareme said:


> it's not in a tight space and i don't stack papers on them! One side is 2/3 inches from a wall. All the other sides are fully exposed. I don't stack anything on them- but it's at my desk so a few loose writing papers are often near enough.
> Plus i do use it with the denons. Great combination this is. Massive bass of the d2k really comes through. The denons have a flat impedance curve so a 5 ohm output although ideal for cans roughly above 40 ohms won't introduce much bad effects if used with the 25ohm denons. I'm going to probably put in that opamp instead of the opa627 as well- denon d7k is a touch bright but the d2k's are fine for some reason. It dont require a soldering iron (does it???) as my matrix was tam audios one that comes with an opamp mod pre installed. Hopefully it's like replacing a lightbulb...
> Ps- had anyone measured these denons to be like this impedance wise (25 ohm) or is it just.manufacturer specs were going by? Denon got the weight of their cans wrong (see my profile album) and so too with the material of padding.


 

 OK, just _asking_ about the tight space thing!
  The amp really shouldn't run so hot the volume control is hot too.
   
  The Op Amp is easy to swap, it is not soldered in.


----------



## the search never ends

The impedance of the Denon D2000, and the rest of that family D5000/7000 all have roughly 25 ohm impedance, you can hit headroom for the impedance graphs.


----------



## the search never ends

The Audinst has a considerably better daac in it, so unless you want the dac "just in case" it's a waste. The Audinst is a DAC first kind of product, with a decent amp built in, I'd rate it as just a bit below the HRT StreamerII as a dac, that's only my opinion of course

  
  Quote: 





toomanycrabs said:


> Anyone know if the DAC M-Stage is any good? I'm currently using an Audinst HUD-mx1 for both DAC and AMP, and I'm considering getting an M-Stage. Should I replace my HUD-mx1 with a DAC M-Stage or keep it as a DAC and just get the normal M-Stage as an AMP?


----------



## CantScareMe

Yea, volume knob shouldn't get hot but it does. I guess on your amp it only gets slightly warm at max.

Oh, and about the LM4652 opamp, where do you guys get it from- Tam audio or some other place?
There must be loads of variants of these all over the place.

The dac on the mstage is a nice feature. But it's just a feature. Obviously the hrt streamer pummels it but it's probably on the same level, maybe a touch bit less than the fiio e7s dac.


----------



## Chris J

You can buy the National Semiconductor LM4562NA from Newark Electronics.
  You only need the LM4562NA and you only need one for a Matrix M.
  Do not get stuck with a fake!
  Newark does not sell fakes.


----------



## rictee

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Big +1 for the LM4562!   I agree, a slight but worthwhile improvement over the OPA627 Class A and non-Class A.


 

 I'm under the impression that OPA627 produces an improvement over the LM4562. I have compared both on my Cube and IMO the former has a wider soundstage and more precise detail while latter is slightly warmer. Also OPA627 is 2x single channels.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





rictee said:


> I'm under the impression that OPA627 produces an improvement over the LM4562. I have compared both on my Cube and IMO the former has a wider soundstage and more precise detail while latter is slightly warmer. Also OPA627 is 2x single channels.


 


 Very strange, I would argue just the opposite:  the LM4562 is more accurate and cleaner in a Matrix M Stage. Removes a touch of darkness from the M.
   
  Not too sure what a dual or single Op Amp configuration has to do with this, it's irrelevant to this discussion.


----------



## the search never ends

Someone posted earlier that the class A biasing made a difference in heat?  Meaning less or more with the mod, mines modded, you can always touch it, and it rarely gets turned off, anyone have opinions, I'm going to try the the LM4562, the 627 is nothing special, but better than the 2134 IMO


----------



## HaVoC-28

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Very strange, I would argue just the opposite:  the LM4562 is more accurate and cleaner in a Matrix M Stage. Removes a touch of darkness from the M.
> 
> Not too sure what a dual or single Op Amp configuration has to do with this, it's irrelevant to this discussion.


 


  There is many more OPA627 fakes than LM4562/LME49720 Fakes 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 . And yes LM4562 is much more brighter than OPA627 wich is laid back and a bit dark (it improves with class A byasing) . A bit more difficult to pick details with OPA627 but they are here ^^. (Tryed OPA627 BP from farnell , LM4562 and it's single couter part LME49710.) but ended prefering moon all over this .


----------



## Xymordos

Quote: 





havoc-28 said:


> There is many more OPA627 fakes than LM4562/LME49720 Fakes
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Quite the contrary, with OPA627SM and OPA637SM my ears bled from the harsh and bright highs, with sharp dry vocals. LME49710HA was more moist with the voice, and although the soundstage was closer, it sounded more natural


----------



## TooManyCrabs

Quote: 





the search never ends said:


> The Audinst has a considerably better daac in it, so unless you want the dac "just in case" it's a waste. The Audinst is a DAC first kind of product, with a decent amp built in, I'd rate it as just a bit below the HRT StreamerII as a dac, that's only my opinion of course


 


  Thanks a lot!


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





the search never ends said:


> Someone posted earlier that the class A biasing made a difference in heat?  Meaning less or more with the mod, mines modded, you can always touch it, and it rarely gets turned off, anyone have opinions, I'm going to try the the LM4562, the 627 is nothing special, but better than the 2134 IMO


 


 No, the Class A mod makes very, very little difference in the heat thrown off by the M.   If you leave the M on all the time you will shorten the life span of the M. The electrolytic capacitors take the most beating in that hot enclosure.  You can't listen to it 24 hours a day.
   
  Just my opinion, but I was not knocked out by the OPA627 Class A or non-Class A either.  I'm an LM4562 fan.
  No flames fellas, just my opinion on the OPA627.
   
  And I agree: "The Search Never Ends"!


----------



## the search never ends

Quote: 





chris j said:


> No, the Class A mod makes very, very little difference in the heat thrown off by the M.   If you leave the M on all the time you will shorten the life span of the M. The electrolytic capacitors take the most beating in that hot enclosure.  You can't listen to it 24 hours a day.
> 
> Just my opinion, but I was not knocked out by the OPA627 Class A or non-Class A either.  I'm an LM4562 fan.
> No flames fellas, just my opinion on the OPA627.
> ...


 


 Lol, welll, I've pretty much managed to stop buying cans and iem's, and for the most part opamp rolling. If only I could quit buying amp/dac's now. I hope after I get the Burson, or the RSA HR2, I can stop!!!!  I gave up the ampop rolling a bit, but I know better opamps exist, not sure how the 627 got so popular.
  Maybe if the M stage dies, I'll be cured, but it is such a great amp in it's price range!!!!  As chris said, nothing against the 627 series, just not for me.


----------



## CantScareMe

I've ordered a couple of opamps from uk farnell.
   
  As my matrix came with cfg's class a mod already installed, i guess that whatever opamp i put in it, it would be automatically class a biased. Is this correct?
   
  How about if i don't like the class a bias thing, and want to revert the entire thing to stock. Can i just take off the class a adapter or is it soldered on??
   
  Sorry about these questions- but i can't find the answers even after searching on this thread.


----------



## putente

Well, I'm also looking to buy some LM4562NA opamps for my Matrix Cube, but I can't seem to find them a reasonable price. I mean, the price of the opamps itself is good, but then the shipping cost are crazy for something so small. It's like, $5 ou 6$ for the opamps and the $20 for shipping...


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





cantscareme said:


> I've ordered a couple of opamps from uk farnell.
> 
> As my matrix came with cfg's class a mod already installed, i guess that whatever opamp i put in it, it would be automatically class a biased. Is this correct?
> 
> ...


 

 The only thing converted to Clas A is the OPA627.
  You can put in another OPA627 or any other Op Amp and it will NOT have the mod.   So it is very easy to return it to stock if you have an OPA2134.
  The Class A mod is the two little resistors on the Op Amp assembly.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





putente said:


> Well, I'm also looking to buy some LM4562NA opamps for my Matrix Cube, but I can't seem to find them a reasonable price. I mean, the price of the opamps itself is good, but then the shipping cost are crazy for something so small. It's like, $5 ou 6$ for the opamps and the $20 for shipping...


 


 Well, I shouldn't say this, but if you can convince National Semiconductor that you are a company or a legitimate business, you can get them to send you free samples of the LM4562NA.
  There is a free sample program on the National Semiconductor web site.


----------



## CantScareMe

chris j- you've been a massive help. I get it now (pretty much).

Fast and precise answers.

I've ordered a few as i needed the order to exceed £20 for farnell to accept an order. I'll try them out in the next few days- but i wont be fiddling with resistors, so no class a mods for me.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





cantscareme said:


> chris j- you've been a massive help. I get it now (pretty much).
> Fast and precise answers.
> I've ordered a few as i needed the order to exceed £20 for farnell to accept an order. I'll try them out in the next few days- but i wont be fiddling with resistors, so no class a mods for me.


 

  
  Thank you!
   
  Here's a thought:
 How about some of you Head Fi-ers buying an LM4562 or two off Mr. CantScareMe?


----------



## CantScareMe

I bought 2/3 LM4562NA's and a few others I can't quite remember of the top of my head. Just searched this thread to see often recommended ones. 

Farnell do eu shipping so i guess if you could get them from me, you could get them from them directly- they'll be quicker obviously.

I just wanted to tame the d7k's treble a bit as atm it's pretty fatiguing. So hopefully one of these opamps- the LM4562NA- i expect, does the trick!


----------



## imported_Alex_T

I just noticed Tam is selling LM4562NA.


Spoiler: Link%20to%20Tam's



http://tamaudio.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=39_46&product_id=86


   
  How many pieces of LM4562NA do I need to purchase?
  Just plug and play right?


----------



## HaVoC-28

Quote: 





imported_alex_t said:


> I just noticed Tam is selling LM4562NA.
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Link%20to%20Tam's
> ...


 


  Only one is needed for M-stage


----------



## Fearless1

Quote: 





imported_alex_t said:


> I just noticed Tam is selling LM4562NA.
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Link%20to%20Tam's
> ...


 


 I ordered a couple of OPAs from Tam just to try them......that was March 9th, and nothing as of yet. Just a heads up.


----------



## 2000impreza

Quote: 





imported_alex_t said:


> I just noticed Tam is selling LM4562NA.
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Link%20to%20Tam's
> ...


 


  Tam is charging a nice premium for that op-amp. You can get the same op-amp from digi-key for $3. http://parts.digikey.com/1/parts/457905-ic-opamp-audio-ster-ab-8dip-lm4562na-nopb.html


----------



## CantScareMe

damn. Left my allen keys, screwdrivers and stuff of that sort back home (i'm at uni). Ain't buying new ones, so will wait till next week to change opamps. As of yet, the mstage is out of commission. It's just too fatiguing, sharp and bity for listening more than an hour a day with my cans here- especially with the d7k.


----------



## the search never ends

I'll take a 4562 opamp off your hands, not sure you're looking to sell.  Shoot me a pm if you do, and I'll send the funds.  Maybe the output impedance of the M Stage is the problem with the D7k's? Trying this opamp is a very good idea IMO, hope it works for you!

  
  Quote: 





cantscareme said:


> damn. Left my allen keys, screwdrivers and stuff of that sort back home (i'm at uni). Ain't buying new ones, so will wait till next week to change opamps. As of yet, the mstage is out of commission. It's just too fatiguing, sharp and bity for listening more than an hour a day with my cans here- especially with the d7k.


----------



## CantScareMe

Thanks for that offer- just that i'm v close to exam time which is quite time consuming so I'm staying away from the post office a bit. Long long long ques in this part of central london!

Anyway, perhaps the output impedance is a slight problem, but not according to reviews here. I think i read that v1 of the m stage was better for the denons than this v2. Don't matter though as the mstage sounds great with the k550 (32ohms). Surely with easily most of the headphones out there being 32ohm the mstage should be okay with these. I mean the rule of multiplying an amplifiers output impedance by 8 is a rule of thumb.


----------



## putente

If I'm looking for an opamp with smoother highs (less brightness/sibilance) than the OP2134, which way should I go?


----------



## Chris J

LM4562NA


----------



## the search never ends

Beat to the punch ^^^^
  Quote: 





putente said:


> If I'm looking for an opamp with smoother highs (less brightness/sibilance) than the OP2134, which way should I go?


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





the search never ends said:


> Beat to the punch ^^^^


 


 Mean, aren't I?


----------



## the search never ends

Nah, just fast.......

 4562 enroute, I just ordered it from Tam since a friend asked me to order an M Stage for him. I have had to wait at times from him, but he's been pretty good. It's just coolfungadget anyway.  IMO the M Stage beats out the Asgard all in all. Of course that's highly subjective, and the Asgard is a bit less grainy.
  Quote: 





chris j said:


> Mean, aren't I?


----------



## the search never ends

@ Chris J, what value resistors did you use with the 4562?


----------



## Chris J

I plugged the 4562 straight into the original Matrix M Stage op amp socket, I did not run the LM4562 with a Class A mod, i.e. no extra resistors soldered to the Op Amp socket. Uncut, unfiltered as they say.
   
  I guess this means that I'm not so mean.   And I support the Military.


----------



## EraserXIV

Couldn't find too much info on this, has anyone tried the LME49990 on the M-Stage? I'm currently using the LME49720HA but I'm finding it to be a little too lean on the low end now and a bit plasticky.
   
  Edit: took the dive and purchased it, I'll report back when they arrive.


----------



## the search never ends

lol, ok  I'll try it w/o the biasing and see what I think. Looked around for info, seems like 3.9 k will work and thats the same as on the 627.
  Yeah Eraser, let us know, there is a following for that 49xxx series, but it seems that the 4562 is the most favored, then again some swear by the 627. Chris J, you are mean, you have me perusing opamps again   Eh, cheaper than rolling tubes, so if you have any tube/hybrid amps and tube roll, please keep it to yourself, since your taste in opamps seems like it coincides with what the most serious diyers like.
   
   
  Quote: 





chris j said:


> I plugged the 4562 straight into the original Matrix M Stage op amp socket, I did not run the LM4562 with a Class A mod, i.e. no extra resistors soldered to the Op Amp socket. Uncut, unfiltered as they say.
> 
> I guess this means that I'm not so mean.   And I support the Military.


----------



## Chris J

If it makes you feel any better,  I stopped rolling Op Amps after using the LM4562!
  And I didn't even try Class A biasing it!
   
  Tube rolling will drive you nuts.


----------



## EraserXIV

I think the LM4562 and the LME49720 are the same part. The LME49860 is similar too I believe, just passed different voltage testings.
   
I also believe the LME49720HA, which is the metal can version, has a slight different sound character too.
Check out this thread: http://www.head-fi.org/t/521972/lm4562-lme49720-lme49860-do-they-sound-different-to-you​


----------



## EraserXIV

Pretty busy this entire week, but the LME49990 just arrived and I couldn't help but take it for a test drive. I only have less than 15 minutes of listening time, so take everything with a grain of salt.
   
  First impressions on the LME49990 are very good. Definitely much more natural than than the LME49720HA, the plasticky sound is gone and feels like there is much more flesh in the notes. It's not as thin and I'm loving the impact on the low end. Not a basshead, but the LME49720 was definitely making me thirst for some more bass, and the LME49990 is just where I want it. Overall: natural and musical.


----------



## tolame4aname

Hey guys,
  First off thanks for such a great thread, I am new to the world of cans and was very thankful to find lots of info on this forum and this thread. I to purchased the ebay version of this amp with the free HLLY t-amp and with all the op amp swapping going on, though I would share my own experiences so far.
   
  I only received the amp and my cans (akg k-702) on Tuesday so please keep in mind nothing is burnt in. But that kind of the point and may help anyone considering this combo new. 
  I am using the s/pdif out from a Auzen Meridian 2g soundcard, to a Rega DAC (only around 200hours use), to the headphone amp.
   
  I am adoring the amp and phones. The matrix has more than enough power to drive them even with 0dB gain, but i am still deciding if i prefer or can tell a difference between 0 and 10dB. Thankfully i read this thread and was not tricked by the switch settings printed in the book , but I am yet to try the high gain settings.
   
  The K-702's sound fantastic! I was scared from a few of the reviews around that they would be lacking in bass, but with this amp I cant see how you would want too much more. Even heavy d&b songs and dance music sound as they should. I mean, I don't think I am ever going to get that full body rumble you get from dedicated sub, but I don't feel I am missing much if anything through the phones and the sound stage is just that much sweeter. Can't wait until it all burns in!!!
   
  Op amps - The meridian soundcard is also made for op amp rolling and when i was using it with logitech z-5500 speakers, i had a play. I honestly couldn't pick a difference between the stock, the 4562, or the 627 but convinced myself 4562 was best. These were very crappy speakers though...
   
  So having the amps already.....  :-D
  So if you happen to have these cans at their ear peircing new, with a Rega DAC, maybe best to stay clear of 4562 at least to start with. If you are desperate to play, try some others first. I can't find my 627 right now (click!!! might be still in the soundcard! lol). but 4562 was sooo soo fatiguing, even on low volume it was killer in the highs. Yes i do think it made the highs clearer and more prominent and possibly slightly extended the bass, my first thoughts after were wow!, but it quickly became uncomfortable listening. I gave it to my partner to try without even telling her about the change and she said it hurt her ears within about 20 seconds. 
   
  I was not convinced of op amps changing much from the past experience, but this really was a drastic change in the sound. I guess it really depends on the equipment in the setup.
   
  I am going to hold off for a few hundred hours of can/amp burn in before testing them some more, but thought i'd let you all know how I went with the initial setup. 
   
  Cheers


----------



## the search never ends

I wouldn't normally bother, but the M stage IMO is one of the best budget amps for sale. The 4562 should be the end. FWIR, the m stage gets more refined with the opamp,  I've tube rolled some, but it's been hit and miss for me. I only have hybrids though.  As far as driving me nuts, it's too late. If the 4562 sounds better to me without biasing it, I'm done. 
   
   
   
   
   
  te:


chris j said:


> If it makes you feel any better,  I stopped rolling Op Amps after using the LM4562!
> And I didn't even try Class A biasing it!
> 
> Tube rolling will drive you nuts.


----------



## EraserXIV

Quote: 





the search never ends said:


> I wouldn't normally bother, but the M stage IMO is one of the best budget amps for sale. The 4562 should be the end. FWIR, the m stage gets more refined with the opamp,  I've tube rolled some, but it's been hit and miss for me. I only have hybrids though.  As far as driving me nuts, it's too late. If the 4562 sounds better to me without biasing it, I'm done.


 


  You should try the LME49990..


----------



## genclaymore

LT1124ACN8 is another good one to try as well as the LT 1213 ACN8 both are dual channel. LT1128CN8 works good too but those are single channel op-amps. The LME4562 isnt the end all op-amp. Also their other op-amps that work good inside the matrix M-Stage. 2x LME49710NA worked good in it, as well the 2x OPA602BP that I Seen alot of people liking in the op-amp thread.


----------



## blackdragon

[size=10pt]Hi there beginner question but im new to all of this and wondering would this item work if I plug the power cord into my computer bar, turn it on and plug headphones into it? I will be listening to my flac files. It wont be connected directly on my computer, just through the power bar.
 Thank you[/size]


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





blackdragon said:


> [size=10pt]Hi there beginner question but im new to all of this and wondering would this item work if I plug the power cord into my computer bar, turn it on and plug headphones into it? I will be listening to my flac files. It wont be connected directly on my computer, just through the power bar.
> Thank you[/size]


 


  What is a power bar/computer bar?


----------



## KimLaroux

Quote: 





chicolom said:


> What is a power bar/computer bar?


 


  A power strip with a surge protector... some have IEM filtering and power conditioning.
   
  BlackDragon is basically asking if the music will go from his computer to his M-stage trough the power cords of the computer and the amplifier. The logic behind his question is there's technically an "electrical connection" between the computer and the amplifier since they are connected on the same power strip.
   
  I'm still wondering if he's serious or if he's just trolling us though.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





chicolom said:


> What is a power bar/computer bar?


 


 A place where they serve alcohol


----------



## mrAdrian

Quote: 





chris j said:


> A place where they serve alcohol


----------



## justaguy

Quote: 





blackdragon said:


> [size=10pt]Hi there beginner question but im new to all of this and wondering would this item work if I plug the power cord into my computer bar, turn it on and plug headphones into it? I will be listening to my flac files. It wont be connected directly on my computer, just through the power bar.
> Thank you[/size]


 


     I really like your question. No you can't.
 You have to connect this amplifier through usb to computer and of course to power bar...


----------



## blacknile

Hi how's the preamp out on the m-stage? Does anybody use this amp to drive a power amp->speakers? The double inputs and the variable gain makes this especially attractive imho. However I was wondering if the preamp outs are an afterthought or if they're as good as the headphone out.


----------



## the search never ends

4562 stays, I've decided that the pangea usb cable is another favorite, which is only 20 dollars at several etailers. Ifind the 4562 to have a more refined treble, and a better soundstage with no loss of imaging. I don't hear a diiference in bass, but an even blacker background on an already quiet amp. I've ordered several more of the pangea usb cables since they trump far more expensive cables IMO, needs about 50 hours, at first ultra smooth, then slightly harsh, then settles in to a fantastic cable, for 20 dollars you owe it a try.I like my M stage better than ever.  Also ordering an HRT Streamer II for a friend with the M Stage, I was surprised at what a no frills usb/dac sounds like, lacking mostly detail compared to the Streamer II+, and I rank the Streamer II+ with anyrhing under 500, minus any extras or flexibility of course.


----------



## tolame4aname

Well its been a week and time to try 4562 again.
  Today I am loving it. Maybe i was already fatigued the first time, or still getting used to cans, but i'm experiencing none of the 'ouch' I originally did with the 4562. I've left it all running most of the week and must be close to another 60hours of burn in. Hope it gets better again .
   
  I am using the pre-amp to a monitor speaker setup with a Swan H10 sub and Swan T200b's. I wish I had the bits to A/B test because i'm not convinced either way on the pre-amp.
  Makes volume control very convenient, but pretty sure I am loosing a bit of timing a width compared to straight from the Rega DAC, just sounds a bit messier, but that may all be in my imagination. Very interested to hear how others have found this little beast as a pre-amp too.


----------



## blacknile

Quote: 





tolame4aname said:


> pretty sure I am loosing a bit of timing a width compared to straight from the Rega DAC, just sounds a bit messier, but that may all be in my imagination. Very interested to hear how others have found this little beast as a pre-amp too.


 
   
  Hi there thanks a lot for this valuable info. It's great you compared the preamp out of this to the Rega,  as I'm also interested in this DAC. If you have further updated impressions don't hesitate to let us know.


----------



## MEDO

My LCD-2 is coming in a few days, and i wanna know how does the M-stage (usb dac version) pair with the LCD-2 << i know it's not the best, but i mean for the price, is it the best out there in this price range <300$
  i heard that the O2 amp is better than the M-stage in every way with LCD-2 just for 149$, is that true ?!


----------



## Fearless1

Quote: 





medo said:


> My LCD-2 is coming in a few days, and i wanna know how does the M-stage (usb dac version) pair with the LCD-2 << i know it's not the best, but i mean for the price, is it the best out there in this price range <300$
> i heard that the O2 amp is better than the M-stage in every way with LCD-2 just for 149$, is that true ?!


 
   
  I own both and I would say no, it is not better, more transparent yes.


----------



## derbigpr

Guys:   I bought a Musical Fidelity M1DAC. Now I'm looking for an amp.  Matrix M-stage is one of the candidates due to low price and costumization trough opamp rolling.  Other candidate in the Audio GD C-2.2.   However, its much more expensive. With all the expenses, I can get the M-stage for 320$, and C2.2 for 600$.  Is it worth it?
   
  Headphones I will be using are Ultrasone HFI-2400 and in future Sennheiser HD700.  So, one darker pair, and one brighter.  Can I know M-stage is dark and colored, and C2.2 neutral and transparent.  Can M-stage be turned into a more dynamic, transparent and neutral amp, and with which Op-amp?


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





derbigpr said:


> Guys:   I bought a Musical Fidelity M1DAC. Now I'm looking for an amp.  Matrix M-stage is one of the candidates due to low price and costumization trough opamp rolling.  Other candidate in the Audio GD C-2.2.   However, its much more expensive. With all the expenses, I can get the M-stage for 320$, and C2.2 for 600$.  Is it worth it?
> 
> Headphones I will be using are Ultrasone HFI-2400 and in future Sennheiser HD700.  So, one darker pair, and one brighter.  Can I know M-stage is dark and colored, and C2.2 neutral and transparent.  Can M-stage be turned into a more dynamic, transparent and neutral amp, and with which Op-amp?


 
   
  I would argue that if you change the Op Amp it can sound a bit better but it still sounds like a Matrix M Stage!
  I prefer the LM4562 Op Amp for a more dynamic, neutral and transparent sound.


----------



## justaguy

I got my LM4562 and I like it. It's clean and detailed.
  I also ordered LM49990 to try since the price on both is low but today I received this
   

   
  instead of this
   

   
  is it seller sent me 6 pieces by mistake or I don't understand something being not good in electronic stuff like this
  and why these six LM49990 I received look different?
  I sent a question to the seller but need to wait until they give me an e-mail address to send a photo..


----------



## EraserXIV

You must have bought a package deal by accident. Also, the LME49990 is a single channel opamp so it is necessary to use two of them on the M-Stage. The LME49990 is only available in the SO8 format so you need a DIP adapter to have them fit into the M-Stage socket (the blue thing that the chips are mounted on is the adapter).
   
  The most important thing is that since the M-Stage uses a dual channel DIP socket, you would need two LME49990s mounted onto one DIP adapter (one on the top, one on the bottom) for it to work.
   
  You would want something like this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/DUAL-SOIC-LME49990-DIP8-ADAPTER-/190662919693?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c6465460d#ht_1099wt_1101
   
  And *NOT *something like this, which is probably what you bought: http://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-LME49990-DIP8-ADAPTERS-/190640593494?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c63109a56#ht_968wt_1101


----------



## justaguy

Quote: 





eraserxiv said:


> You must have bought a package deal by accident. Also, the LME49990 is a single channel opamp so it is necessary to use two of them on the M-Stage. The LME49990 is only available in the SO8 format so you need a DIP adapter to have them fit into the M-Stage socket (the blue thing that the chips are mounted on is the adapter).
> 
> The most important thing is that since the M-Stage uses a dual channel DIP socket, you would need two LME49990s mounted onto one DIP adapter (one on the top, one on the bottom) for it to work.


 
  this is what I ordered
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/190663515169?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649#ht_839wt_1270
   
  I already have two LME49990s mounted onto adapter. is it wrong adapter?


----------



## justaguy

and what the difference between my ones and    http://www.ebay.com/itm/DUAL-SOIC-LME49990-DIP8-ADAPTER-/190662919693?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c6465460d#ht_1069wt_1270


----------



## justaguy

ok I got the answer from seller....
 If someone here from Toronto waiting for six pairs of LME49990 with adapters, I'm sorry your op-Amps are in Australia


----------



## derbigpr

Quote: 





chris j said:


> I would argue that if you change the Op Amp it can sound a bit better but it still sounds like a Matrix M Stage!
> I prefer the LM4562 Op Amp for a more dynamic, neutral and transparent sound.


 
   
   
  I would not want the M-stage to sound necessarily better, but I want it to sound transparent and neutral. Since M1DAC is an extremely good sounding DAC, and way above the price of M-stage at 800$, I would like the amp to change its sound as little as possible, and just provide a clean amplification of the signals that come out of the M1.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





derbigpr said:


> I would not want the M-stage to sound necessarily better, but I want it to sound transparent and neutral. Since M1DAC is an extremely good sounding DAC, and way above the price of M-stage at 800$, I would like the amp to change its sound as little as possible, and just provide a clean amplification of the signals that come out of the M1.


 
   
  Not too sure how happy the M Stage will make you, it has a reputation for being a bit dark sounding.
  It is not the world's most revealing headphone amp.
  Personally, I am looking for a more transparent headphone amp as I do not feel I am hearing everything I can out of my CD player (yes I still use a CD player!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) with the Matrix.
   
  If that sounds like I hate the thing, far from it.
  I just don't expect a miracle for $275.00


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





justaguy said:


> ok I got the answer from seller....
> If someone here from Toronto waiting for six pairs of LME49990 with adapters, I'm sorry your op-Amps are in Australia


 
   
  Send one to me!     LOL!


----------



## EraserXIV

Quote: 





justaguy said:


> this is what I ordered
> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/190663515169?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649#ht_839wt_1270
> 
> I already have two LME49990s mounted onto adapter. is it wrong adapter?


 
   
  What you got accidently sent to you is actually exactly what you need, you just got six of them. The _real _thing that you ordered may just come with one of the chips, but not the adapter. You need the adapter, and two of the chips mounted onto it, for it to work on the M-Stage.


----------



## justaguy

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Send one to me!     LOL!


 
   
  Such a nice ebay seller! He sent me 120$ package instead of 5$ chip. Already received a super positive feedback from me
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Quote: 





eraserxiv said:


> What you got accidently sent to you is actually exactly what you need, you just got six of them. The _real _thing that you ordered may just come with one of the chips, but not the adapter. You need the adapter, and two of the chips mounted onto it, for it to work on the M-Stage.


 
   
  yeah thanks this is exactly what I got. And my initial order was wrong.


----------



## genclaymore

Have any of you guys used a Audioengine D1 or Ross martin Audio Dac with the Matrix M-Stage v2.  I still trying to make my mind up about either of these external dacs as I nearing the cost of either one.If they worked very well with the amp. 
   
  I thought about the HRT Music Streamer II+ But it doesn't have Digital input like the two dacs i looking at.


----------



## EraserXIV

Quote: 





justaguy said:


> Such a nice ebay seller! He sent me 120$ package instead of 5$ chip. Already received a super positive feedback from me


 
   
  Whoa he's letting you keep it?


----------



## justaguy

Quote: 





eraserxiv said:


> Whoa he's letting you keep it?


 
   
   
  He didn't say anything, but I should be a nice person and ship it back


----------



## thelostMIDrange




----------



## KimLaroux

I see two resistors on this last socket. These could be the bias resistors.


----------



## dogwan

Quote: 





thelostmidrange said:


> acquired the matrix recently. trying to learn a bit about it......in any case the sound i'm hearing suggests that this is not a clear-boost type of amp?  Also, I was told upon buying this it was the version that ran in classA, but doesn't appear to be so as I should see some resistors on that opamp yes?


 
   
  You can see the green adapter PCB underneath the ribbon in the 2nd photo. That adapter has 2 single channel Opamps with the biasing resistors integral to the PCB. If you were to pull that adapter gently up and out you would find the original Opamp socket for a dual channel.
   
  Also in the 1st photo you can see the USB-dac card mounted on standoffs next to the transformer. In the non-USB version that space is left vacant.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

the usb.dac on this sounds excellent


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





thelostmidrange said:


> acquired the matrix recently. trying to learn a bit about it......in any case the sound i'm hearing suggests that this is not a clear-boost type of amp?  Also, I was told upon buying this it was the version that ran in classA, but doesn't appear to be so as I should see some resistors on that opamp yes?


 
   
  What do you mean by a clear boost type of amp?
  Do you mean the amp is a bit coloured?
  My opinion is that it is a rather dark sounding amp.....YMMV


----------



## thelostMIDrange

edit


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





thelostmidrange said:


> right, some amps are unaffecting of the signal. Clean boost is a guitar term, not quite right for hifi but in guitar playing it's a similar phenomenon, some effects cleanly boost the signal and some add colour......Mine is a touch dark in classA mode but not with the single chip............anyone know why my unit is building up a static charge it seems. every 30 minutes or so a big wave and wall of static jumps out of no where for a few seconds, frightens the bejesus out of me and then disappears for awhile, and I dread it's inevitable return.....any one know why this is?  does anyone want a cheap mstage to buy/fix?


 
   
  The Wall Of Static:
  Do you mean a wall of static noise?
  It appears for a few seconds then disappears?
  Sounds like something you would get from a DAC or some other digital hardware.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

edit...


----------



## purrin

What do op-amp have in there right now? What is your gain set to? Can you swap to a another op-amp which was not involved in your switch-a-roo incident?


----------



## dogwan

Quote:  





> ..........anyone know why my unit is building up a static charge it seems. every 30 minutes or so a big wave and wall of static jumps out of no where for a few seconds, frightens the bejesus out of me and then disappears for awhile, and I dread it's inevitable return.....any one know why this is?  does anyone want a cheap mstage to buy/fix?


 
   
  I know you stated that the phenomenon started when you switched opamps, but have you checked that it's not related to something as innocuous as a refrigerator or water heater switching on and off?
   
  In the past I've chased gremlins only to discover it was something totally coincidental. Murphy's law says that such things will happen.
   
  If unsure try taking it over to the neighbors house and running it.


----------



## purrin

Maybe it's the source?


----------



## dogwan

Quote: 





purrin said:


> Maybe it's the source?


 
   
  Oh, yeah! I forgot to mention that too.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

edit....


----------



## KimLaroux

You're using the M-stage's DAC? It might be the cause of the problem. There was someone else who had a similar problem. They had white noise when watching flash videos.
   
  The refrigerator corrupting your whole house power is not impossible, but highly unlikely. Especially if it's new. 
   
  You could try to isolate the problem (amplifier or DAC) by using the audio out of your computer directly to the line in of the M-stage. If you don't get any noise that way, then the problem is the M-stage's DAC.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

well. i've been listening now for about an hour each (usb and front panel input) and no problems any longer. The only thing I did was put the top back on. When I was having the issue, the top was off, as I was comparing chips and left it off. Could this have been the cause of some kind of buildup and occaisonal release of the static etc?  Hopefully it won't come back in any case.....


----------



## Chris J

It's not static electricity.
   
  99% sure it is radiated EMI/RFI.
  The case acts as a bit of a shield from radiated electromagnetic noise which will be created by _any_ and all devices with a power supply in your home, any fan or motor with noisy brushes, etc.
  Performance with electronic equipment always depends on the shielding being in place.
  The case is grounded via the third pin on your power cord.
  Never cut this pin off to try and solve a "problem".
  You will only create other problems.
   
  For example, no reputable company would build a USB cable without shielding.


----------



## CantScareMe

Hello again.
   
  Just thought it'll be good to say a bit about what i said i will say 1/2 weeks ago- opamps.
   
How i tested
  - _burn in:_ every amp, opamp, headphone, dac, cable is always burned in. In the case of the opamps, I put on at least 20hrs on each one before testing.
   
  - _Invariant reference: As a_ll the gear on headfi only ever performs when in comparison to some competing gear, i find it suitable to only ever test stuff using that fact. For testing the opamps i used the samung galaxy s i9000 voodoo as the reference. 
   
  - _limited variables: _Sometimes when trying to compare two amps there's just too much sound wise to compare! My main interest was in reducing the harsh treble that the class a biased mods were probably responsible for with my d7k's. So that's the main thing i looked for.
   
   
Opamps
  OPA627ap class A: Harsher definitely in all ways regarding the highs than the samsung galaxy s
   
  LM4562NA: Very slightly more harsher. Very close though. 
   
  LME49860NA: Definitely smoother than the samsung.
   
_ps: Thanks chris j for telling me about this stuff. I wouldn't have bothered with opamps otherwise!_
   
   
Conclusion
  Both the lm4562na and lme49860 are very good. The former i'd say is the most neutral but the latter is more flowing and smoother. Someone said both are the same opamp only with different labelling, but specs, price and people testing them suggest completely otherwise! They definitely sound clearly different.
   
  The heat issue on my m stage hasn't been resolved though so IT BITES THE DUST. It just gets hotter and hotter and hotter the more hours i use it. I mean, with the nfb 12 or other notoriously hot amps eventually they reach a cutoff point where they maintain a steady temperature. Not my m stage though, so it's going back. After using it constantly for 10/11 hours even the volume knob is very heated! not good.
   
  Tam audio haven't responded to any of my numerous emails over the week. Not surprising. So it has to be.......
   
...Paypal to the rescue
   
   
Overall conclusion
  I don't know what my next amp will be, maybe something from nwavguy, but for sound quality on the scale of 1-5 i'd give the matrix a 3.5. 
   
  1: awful (nuforce udac 2)
  2: okay (ibasso d4)
  3: Half decent (fiio e9, e10, nfb 12, nuforce hdp)
  4: Good (arcam rdac)
  5: Awesome (hrt music streamer II 2011 version)
   
  N/A: DEAD (yulong d100)
   
   
  I expected it to be overrated hype really but for around £160 It wasn't. Quite decent you know. (I paid a bit more than this for the extra usb dac version and the rubbish class a mod- must be because of fake opamps).
   
   
  Anyway, that's that then.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

I think it helps to keep the volume going into it (from the computer) at midway or less and ust eh matrix gain and volume to ramp it back up.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

edit.....


----------



## genclaymore

Yea my Matrix Get hot. but the Volume knob never get heated.


----------



## putente

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *CantScareMe* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  And what about the stock OPA2134, what do you think about that one?


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





thelostmidrange said:


> Dammn. The wall of static is back. It may be the usb/dac. This time the wall of static stayed and did not disappear until I unplugged the usb connection and once replugged, was back to normal. So I think it's safe to assume it's not the cover being on or off or any intermittant turning on or off of some other electical item in my house.............This sucks as it was all sounding great.


 
   
  I think you have tried bypassing the USB input on the Matrix to see if the noise goes away??
  I agree with the others who say it is probably a defectice USB card.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





cantscareme said:


> The heat issue on my m stage hasn't been resolved though so IT BITES THE DUST. It just gets hotter and hotter and hotter the more hours i use it. I mean, with the nfb 12 or other notoriously hot amps eventually they reach a cutoff point where they maintain a steady temperature. Not my m stage though, so it's going back. After using it constantly for 10/11 hours even the volume knob is very heated! not good.
> 
> Tam audio haven't responded to any of my numerous emails over the week. Not surprising. So it has to be.......
> 
> ...


 
   
  Wow,  that sounds way too hot.
  I agree, get a new one even if you have to beat TAM with a stick.
   
  Yulong.......another one bites the dust?    How old is the Yulong?


----------



## CantScareMe

Completely forgot to try the stock opa2134. I've packed it all up now, so i can't be asked to find out. Sorry!

Yea, the yulong. It was last year i think i had it, but it was for such a short time that i couldn't form an impression of it's sound. No, actually i couldn't get this piece of junk to work hence the little time with it. All these weird noises, clicks, buzzez, drop outs, cop outs.......

I can't really point the blame for these duds on the company being chinese/far east as the fiio stuff i've had has never not worked perfectly. Not even once. The audio gd nfb 12 works fine as well. Plus on the other hand you've got Nuforce (american) who go one step further than others by selling OVERPRICED junk!!
I can't really blame these duds on the products being made in china either. I mean, what's not made there? Even my d7k has the 'made in china' stamp on it!


.....Anyway


----------



## Hedonism

Hey guys,
   
  I'm thinking of pairing this amp with the D2000s. The amp specifications state that the output impedance is 5 ohms, and the D2000s are 25 ohms. I've read that an amp should have an output impedance of less than 1/8 of the headphones impedance. Thus, there is a mismatch.
   
  What I want to know is this mismatch will negatively impact the capabilities of the D2000s. Do they sound alright with the m-stage, or should I look for an amp with lower output impedance?
   
  Thanks in advance!
   
  P.S. I got the 1/8 rule specifically from NwAvGuy's blog. The fact that an amp with higher output impedance will distort the sound more than an amp with low output impedance is well-documented.
   
  P.P.S. There has been no mention whether or not the distortion is necessarily a bad thing. It is stated that some users can prefer the distortion.
   
  TL;DR: How is the synergy between the Denon D2000s and the Matrix M-stage?


----------



## Papander

Quote: 





hedonism said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I'm thinking of pairing this amp with the D2000s. The amp specifications state that the output impedance is 5 ohms, and the D2000s are 25 ohms. I've read that an amp should have an output impedance of less than 1/8 of the headphones impedance. Thus, there is a mismatch.
> 
> ...


 
  D2000 doesn't need an amp they are extremely easy to drive.


----------



## jkorten

Thanks for the excellent review. I've looked at the internals and it is a fairly standard circuit layout. Very similar to
  http://electronics-diy.com/electronic_schematic.php?id=346
   
  However I have one issue with this headphone amplifier that I wonder if anybody else has experienced. I have it plugged in to the tape monitor output on my Cary Audio SLP98 preamp. When the Matrix is powered off, the sound on my preamp degrades considerably and I find I have to unplug the preamp.
   
  Do others find this to be the case?
   
  I've looked into the internals and see that it uses a relay to switch between inputs. I will try next to connect to the normally unconnected input when powered down and will report back on the results.
   
  Regards,
   
   
  Jerry


----------



## Mad Max

The second knob from the left is the output selector?  You are changing it when the M-Stage is powered down, right?
  It could also be that the M-Stage drains power from the preamp when off.  Not from the power supply, but from the preamp's output.


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





hedonism said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I'm thinking of pairing this amp with the D2000s. The amp specifications state that the output impedance is 5 ohms, and the D2000s are 25 ohms. I've read that an amp should have an output impedance of less than 1/8 of the headphones impedance. Thus, there is a mismatch.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Didn't find anything =475618&output=posts&action=disp]here?


----------



## Hedonism

Quote: 





mad max said:


> Didn't find anything here?


 
   
  Ah, why didn't I think of that one!? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  But seriously, thanks.
   
  For anyone else who was wondering, and too lazy to look through the search function, there were many positive comments in regards to the M-stage and D2000s. In fact, I don't think I even saw one negative criticism, really.
   
  I guess I'll be springing for one of these very soon.


----------



## EinZweiDrei

strange.
 the longest time i left my m stage on was for 36hours and it never gets hot.
 it does get warm though. like between luke warm and cozy warm. btw i have the vented version of m stage with no usb dac and stock op amp. 120v.


----------



## Mad Max

My unvented M-Stage got almost burning hot on a couple of occasions.  These days, it just gets cozy warm for me, too, and no more.
  I stick with opamps that don't oscillate lately.


----------



## genclaymore

Quote: 





einzweidrei said:


> strange.
> the longest time i left my m stage on was for 36hours and it never gets hot.
> it does get warm though. like between luke warm and cozy warm. btw i have the vented version of m stage with no usb dac and stock op amp. 120v.


 
  I wonder if it possible to get a hold of the venting casting. Because mine is the v2 ver. Tho i could always tape 4 120mm case fans on it and use a long 4 pin psu extension running from my comp.


----------



## chicolom

You could always drill some big holes in it....


----------



## genclaymore

Yea true, but i not handy with power tools. I more likey to make a wreck of it.


----------



## Mad Max

Well, be artistic at wrecking it!


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





jkorten said:


> Thanks for the excellent review. I've looked at the internals and it is a fairly standard circuit layout. Very similar to
> http://electronics-diy.com/electronic_schematic.php?id=346
> 
> However I have one issue with this headphone amplifier that I wonder if anybody else has experienced. I have it plugged in to the tape monitor output on my Cary Audio SLP98 preamp. When the Matrix is powered off, the sound on my preamp degrades considerably and I find I have to unplug the preamp.
> ...


 
   
  Yes, I have found this to be a problem,
  Have you tried flipping the input slector in the Matrix to the unused iinput?
  This works for me but I have an older Matrix (8 months old! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) which does not have a USB input so YMMV!    LOL!
   
  CJ


----------



## CantScareMe

How about that, CFG is one of them sellers- only responds if you get paypal on him!!
   
  Otherwise I would have been stuck....


----------



## Kazenagi

Wow so the vents really do help dissipate heat, I sometimes forget to turn off my vented M-stage and it'll only be warm to touch even after a day or two.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

anyone recommend a chip ?.................here's the info to help you help me:
   
  I don't particularly prefer the class A mode dual chip sound. I find it a touch too 'rich' in an unatural way. So am currently using and preferring the stock single chip. But, while I like just about everything to the sound, there is a touch of 'sponge' to the mids and lows that i'd like to dial out hopefully with a slightly less compressed sounding chip. To my ears classA was even more compressed, so the single chip helped me go in the right direction, now I am just hoping for a different single chip that will take me the rest of the way to a more lean and dry, less 'affected' sound.
   
  also, where are you guys getting your optional chips at?
   
  thanks in advance.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





thelostmidrange said:


> anyone recommend a chip ?.................here's the info to help you help me:
> 
> I don't particularly prefer the class A mode dual chip sound. I find it a touch too 'rich' in an unatural way. So am currently using and preferring the stock single chip. But, while I like just about everything to the sound, there is a touch of 'sponge' to the mids and lows that i'd like to dial out hopefully with a slightly less compressed sounding chip. To my ears classA was even more compressed, so the single chip helped me go in the right direction, now I am just hoping for a different single chip that will take me the rest of the way to a more lean and dry, less 'affected' sound.
> 
> ...


 
   
  After trying a few Op Amps, I find I am a big fan of the LM4562NA which is a dual Op Amp. 
  I think you can get one from Tam Audio, I got mine from National Semiconductor.
  This is a very clean Op Amp without the fake richness and spongi-ness, without the compression and other nastiness.
   
_I like the LM4562NA because it is a good clear sounding Op Amp, no colouration, low distortion._


----------



## tolame4aname

Quote: 





genclaymore said:


> I wonder if it possible to get a hold of the venting casting. Because mine is the v2 ver. Tho i could always tape 4 120mm case fans on it and use a long 4 pin psu extension running from my comp.


 
   
  Not sure on the case, but I was able to order a face plate from this ebay seller 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140587163079&ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:US:1123#ht_2982wt_648
   
  I ordered silver but changed my room around and decided I wanted black.
  Cost $20usd inc shipping to Australia so if they can supply i'd guess the housing would be similar.


----------



## thelostMIDrange

thanks chris. I will try it. I suspect it's the dac that is what I like about this unit, more than the amp, so if this chip goes in the direction of making the amp section less conspicuous, it may be a good one for me. The overall unit itself has great qualities; resolution, soundstage etc but they are they are most apparent when using the dac. When plugging straight into the front (amp only) I frankly could take it or leave it.
   
   
  chip sources:
http://octopart.com/lm4562na%2Fnopb-national+semiconductor-664061#compare_suppliers
http://www.newark.com/national-semiconductor/lm4562na-nopb/ic-audio-op-amp-55mhz-dip-8/dp/32M1177


----------



## NoMatterWhat

How good is the Matrix M-stage with Dt 990s 250ohm ? How does it compare to LD MKIII?


----------



## Mad Max

Superb, but no idea about the Little Dot.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





nomatterwhat said:


> How good is the Matrix M-stage with Dt 990s 250ohm ? How does it compare to LD MKIII?


 
   
  I get good results with my 600 ohm Beyer DT880, but I prefer the the DT880 with an OTL tube amp.
  Obviuosly YMMV 'cos the DT880s are not DT990s but they do show a strong family resemblance.
  The DT990s are much brighter than the DT880s which may work well with a dark amp like the M Stage.


----------



## NoMatterWhat

Thank you.
   
  But do you think that the tube amps are better then solid state ones for DT 990 ? Just from experience or some knowledge.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





nomatterwhat said:


> Thank you.
> 
> But do you think that the tube amps are better then solid state ones for DT 990 ? Just from experience or some knowledge.


 
   
  Hi,
   
  I don't think it would be fair for me to give you an opinion because I have heard the DT990 several times but only thru a solid state amp.
  Based on "a bit of knowledge" there are a lot of people who swear by using the 600 ohm drivers in DT880 and DT990 with OTL tube amps.
  The La Figaro or Dark Voice 336 series seem to have their fans with DT880 and DT990 owners (like me).
   
  Try posting your question on this thread: http://www.head-fi.org/t/513393/guide-sonic-differences-between-dt770-dt990-models-more   
  Or you may actually find the answer somewhere in that 55 page thread! 
  There is a "Search This Thread" button below the title on that thread (and every other thread).


----------



## the search never ends

I'm not sure how anyone of us can really tell another if tube or solid state is better, for me at least, both are good and slightly different, the best tube amps bring out the best soundstage from many cans to my ears, the best solid state amps offer the most linear response. Not that a good otl amp doesn't reach to the extremes, maybe just tighter control.  High impedance cans work best with tubes IMO.  But my 598's open up well also. When I had a few pairs of Denon, didn't really care for the result.  For anything but classical I use ss on my hd650's for classical the holographic staging of an otl is very seductive.
   
  Oops, back to the 990's I prefer otl with them for the mids. One of the few I prefer tubes to listen to, that's just my opinion, my hearing, and I only can offer how I hear it, hope that helps.
   
  And chris, I'm loving the M stage with the new opamp, it sounds ridiculous good for it's price, now one of my favorite amps!


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





the search never ends said:


> I'm not sure how anyone of us can really tell another if tube or solid state is better, for me at least, both are good and slightly different, the best tube amps bring out the best soundstage from many cans to my ears, the best solid state amps offer the most linear response. Not that a good otl amp doesn't reach to the extremes, maybe just tighter control.  High impedance cans work best with tubes IMO.  But my 598's open up well also. When I had a few pairs of Denon, didn't really care for the result.  For anything but classical I use ss on my hd650's for classical the holographic staging of an otl is very seductive.
> 
> Oops, back to the 990's I prefer otl with them for the mids. One of the few I prefer tubes to listen to, that's just my opinion, my hearing, and I only can offer how I hear it, hope that helps.
> 
> And chris, I'm loving the M stage with the new opamp, it sounds ridiculous good for it's price, now one of my favorite amps!


 
   
  Wow, that's great news about your Matrix M Stage.
  I'm gald I was able to help!
   
  As for the tube/solid state debate, I agree with what you are saying; I think it just comes down to what you like and no one can answer that question for you.
  For me it also depends on what music I am listening to.
   
  It's too complicated, so:
  Maybe I should sell everything and get a Bose Wave radio, because a lot of people say it is the best.
  I know this because I saw it on TV! LOL!


----------



## creal

Has anyone meassured the weight of their M-Stage? It somewhat confusing to read all these different informations: most retailers says 1,5kg, some of them indicates a weight of 2kg (including packaging?) and the manual says 1,4kg. Well I threw everything on a scale: the M-Stage USB (current version) weighs 1186g, the power cord 139g and the packaging without the manual 231g. It know it's crazy to meassure the whole thing, but i just wanted to know 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
   
  One more thing: I get a quite noticeable hum on my TF10, even on lowest gain and volume; completely normal?


----------



## genclaymore

I don't notice any humming, also I don't have a scale to weight it.


----------



## Chris J

I don't hear no stinking humming, not even from my IEMs, but they are Shure SE210 which are shyte anyway......


----------



## creal

Neither my DT880 nor my K530 hum at all, regardless of gain and volume. Seems the TF10 have pretty sensitive drivers...


----------



## EinZweiDrei

is the popping sound when you turn on the m stage with the headphones plugged in confirmed to be safe yet?
 or is it still unknown?


----------



## Mad Max

Safe.


----------



## tolame4aname

Question about op amps...
  Someone, I assume you Chis said somewhere that 4562 may not be stable on 0 gain setting..... (cant seem to find where now)
  What specs do I need to look at to understand why? 
  I have a dual 49990 and a 49860 i am wanting to try and wondering if they can be used on 0 gain or not?
   
  Cheers


----------



## EinZweiDrei

Quote: 





mad max said:


> Safe.


 

 so i can just leave my headphones in my m stage when i turn it on and off?


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





tolame4aname said:


> Question about op amps...
> Someone, I assume you Chis said somewhere that 4562 may not be stable on 0 gain setting..... (cant seem to find where now)
> What specs do I need to look at to understand why?
> I have a dual 49990 and a 49860 i am wanting to try and wondering if they can be used on 0 gain or not?
> ...


 
   
  It usually just says in the datasheet what minimum gain that the chip wants.  Actually, Matrix/Lehmann should have made the 0 gain setting 1 or 2 instead.  You always want _some_ voltage gain according to Tangentsoft.
   
  LME49710/49720/LM4562/LME49860 just isn't for this amp at all, not that anyone cares.
  


  Quote: 





einzweidrei said:


> so i can just leave my headphones in my m stage when i turn it on and off?


 
   
  Totally.  Putting in the wrong opamp may cause huge pops (I'm not sure about that), but if you go with the recommendations that I or others in this thread have made, you shouldn't have issues.


----------



## genclaymore

I have used 2x LME49710NA, 1x LME49720HA and 1xLME 49860 in the amp without any issues but I not using 0 gain.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





tolame4aname said:


> Question about op amps...
> Someone, I assume you Chis said somewhere that 4562 may not be stable on 0 gain setting..... (cant seem to find where now)
> What specs do I need to look at to understand why?
> I have a dual 49990 and a 49860 i am wanting to try and wondering if they can be used on 0 gain or not?
> ...


 
   
  You won't find this in spec sheets.
  I use to design analog signal processing systems for a living.
  I've seen this happen in a few designs, you layout a printed circuit board, select an Op Amp that should work, then you test the circuit out and find oscillations where you shouldn't.
  I've even seen this happen after we have carefully performed some computer aided analysis, taking into account parasitic capacitance, etc.
  Everything looks OK in the computer model, and first time you test the system, you get some unforeseen oscillations somewhere.
   
  There is an old saying (or designer's joke) "Amplifiers always oscillate, Oscillators never oscillate".
  This really refers to building prototypes.
   
  Unless you can verify that you are no oscillating with an oscilloscope, I would just try to be safe and set gain to 10 dB instead of slowly frying the amp or a headphone.


----------



## the search never ends

My TF.10's don't hum or anything, nor any of my iem's i tried a half dozen, none of them had any artifacts in the sound.  If your triples have the mic in them, that's probably the problem, I have a few iem's with mic's and none of them like to play well with a powerful desktop amp, no idea why, but have seen many posts saying the same thing from other members. Otherwise, I have no idea.  You could try the 75 ohm resistor trick, since the triples are very low impedance, it's cheap and worth a try.


----------



## Mad Max

When there is hum, it could be from a ground loop.  TF10's excessive sensitivity would make it obvious.


----------



## tolame4aname

Cheers Chris and Mad Max, 
  I will keep the gain at 10db.
   
  I am liking 49860 so far, but still only a few hours on it. Haven't had much time with it but an instant impression is it seems to have made the K702's sound even more like speakers.
  Before the change I used to put on moonlight sonata when I was showing them to friends and they would take off the cans thinking that the speakers where still on.
   
  Now I can do this with most songs. . Good start.


----------



## GamerOne

Thinking about getting an OPA Moon for my M-stage, but does it even fit in an M-stage? Also, if I'm buying one I'll order it from ampcity.co.uk and they have an "Optional extra" which is "Extension cables for dual OPA (100mm)", what exactly is this for and do I need it?


----------



## Mad Max

Yes, you need the extension cable.  OPA Moon/Sun/Earth are far too big to sit upright inside the M-Stage.


----------



## wilky61

Those of you with the LM4562, have you added the resistors to class-A bias your opamp, or is this not necessary for the LM4562?


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





gamerone said:


> Thinking about getting an OPA Moon for my M-stage, but does it even fit in an M-stage? Also, if I'm buying one I'll order it from ampcity.co.uk and they have an "Optional extra" which is "Extension cables for dual OPA (100mm)", what exactly is this for and do I need it?


 
   
  BTW, If you have the M-Stage with the built in USB DAC I don't think there is enough room inside for the AudioGD opamps.


----------



## GamerOne

Quote: 





mad max said:


> Yes, you need the extension cable.  OPA Moon/Sun/Earth are far too big to sit upright inside the M-Stage.


 
   
  Ah, I suspected as much  Thanks for the reply!
   
  Quote: 





chicolom said:


> BTW, If you have the M-Stage with the built in USB DAC I don't think there is enough room inside for the AudioGD opamps.


 
   
  I don't, but thanks for the heads up


----------



## creal

Quote: 





the search never ends said:


> My TF.10's don't hum or anything, nor any of my iem's i tried a half dozen, none of them had any artifacts in the sound.  If your triples have the mic in them, that's probably the problem...


 
   
  My TF10 are equipped with the UE Custom-Cable and still hum quite noticeably at the lowest gain setting. I already tried a different power cord, a different plug (wall plug) and tightened up the screw at the bottom of the amp.
   
  By the way, I noticed something interesting: if I set the volume knob around 3/4 or more volume the hum increases a fair amount just by touching the metal knob of the potentiometer. At lower volume settings nothing audible changes. What could it be (maybe the alps itself) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





?
   
*Edit: *I took the dac module out and noticed it wasn't the reason for all this hum with my IEMs. The noise created by touching the volume knob increases with the volume setting itself. It sounds different than the hum which is always there.


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





wilky61 said:


> Those of you with the LM4562, have you added the resistors to class-A bias your opamp, or is this not necessary for the LM4562?


 
   
  It's already biased to class-A internally, or so one guy says.
  purrin says that it gets warmer in sound on headphonia.
  I would suggest a 0.1uF C0G/NP0 ceramic cap across pins 4 and 8 (power supplies) instead to get the best sound out of it.  A Russian K42-Y2 PIO film capacitor would be worth a try, too, if you have one.


----------



## the search never ends

Sounds like an internal problem with the amp, ask if you can return it for the amp sans dac, make sure he knows you're a member at headfi, he knows all too well that the majority of his sales are headfi related. It could be be the potentiometer, but you'd have to replce it to find out, and he may claim you voided the warranty. Whatever it is, I'm pretty darn sure something is wrong internally with the amp. And I don't feel the usb version is worth buying. TF10's aren't especially prone to problems with amps, in fact I think they improve more than most iem's amped. What you are describing eliminates an impedance problem being the sole cause. I saw where one member had a tough time getting responses from him, that is not my experience though. Good luck getting it resolved, and give the amp another shot, it really is great value.
  Quote: 





creal said:


> My TF10 are equipped with the UE Custom-Cable and still hum quite noticeably at the lowest gain setting. I already tried a different power cord, a different plug (wall plug) and tightened up the screw at the bottom of the amp.
> 
> By the way, I noticed something interesting: if I set the volume knob around 3/4 or more volume the hum increases a fair amount just by touching the metal knob of the potentiometer. At lower volume settings nothing audible changes. What could it be (maybe the alps itself)
> 
> ...


----------



## creal

Quote: 





the search never ends said:


> Sounds like an internal problem with the amp...


 
  This might be the case, at least the background noise isn't introduced by the source (no RCA or USB connected at the time of testing).
   
   
  Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *the search never ends* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> And I don't feel the usb version is worth buying.


 

 The DAC module is nothing special, but for the additional price asked it isn't a bad deal by any means. SQ wise it shouldn't make a difference anyway, they just stripped the 2nd RCA input and added 3 mounting holes for the DAC board itself (otherwise everthing is the same).
   
   
  Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *the search never ends* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> TF10's aren't especially prone to problems with amps, in fact I think they improve more than most iem's amped.


 
  To be fair I don't wanna use the TF10 with this amp. The 5ohm output impedance wracks the frequency response of the drivers and in comparison with my portable setup, they just sound quite odd. But most people said there is no audible hiss/hum with their IEMs below 3/4 volume at min. gain and it's just not the case for myself. Really seems like hit and miss with the M-Stage, at least I'am not the only one with this problem 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. With my full-size headphones there are no problems at all, not at full and especially not at min. gain - it just sounds great.
   
   
  Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *the search never ends* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> I saw where one member had a tough time getting responses from him, that is not my experience though.


 
  I don't know if we both mean the same reseller, since i bought my one from a british shop. It would kind of suck to ship the amp back to them because I'am located at the main land and therefore shipping gets somewhat expensive and I'am just a student on a small budget. But sure enough I would like to get all issues resolved, so let's see what's gonna happen.
   
  Thanks


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





wilky61 said:


> Those of you with the LM4562, have you added the resistors to class-A bias your opamp, or is this not necessary for the LM4562?


 
   
  I have never bothered to do a Class A mod on an LM4562.
   
  Please keep in mind that the Op Amp does NOT directly power your headphone, there is a discrete transistor Class A driver between the Op Amp and your headphones.  
  In ten words or less, this Class A driver is what actually provides all the current to your headphone.


----------



## creal

Isn't the alps in the M-Stage grounded at all? As I mentioned before I get some good noise by touching the pot' right about 3/4+, but if I place my finger at the metallic part of the alps housing, the sound out of the IEMs goes off like a lawnmower. Again with my Beyers or AKGs I can't hear anything...


----------



## the search never ends

Hi creal, I realize you weren't aiming to use your triples with the M staqge, in answer to grounding yes, it is grounded, although I believe yours is not properly grounded, what you desribe doesn't leave much else, for the sake of trying to coming close to duplicating your situation, I hooked up a few iem's at 20 db gain, nothing except audible hiss at 3/4 volume, (no signal of course) Plastic cover off the potentiometer etc.Considering your  budget, it should be easy enough to correct the grounding problem yourself. Good Luck
   
  Edit: Have you tried dynamic iem's and same problem?
  Quote: 





creal said:


> Isn't the alps in the M-Stage grounded at all? As I mentioned before I get some good noise by touching the pot' right about 3/4+, but if I place my finger at the metallic part of the alps housing, the sound out of the IEMs goes off like a lawnmower. Again with my Beyers or AKGs I can't hear anything...


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





creal said:


> Isn't the alps in the M-Stage grounded at all? As I mentioned before I get some good noise by touching the pot' right about 3/4+, but if I place my finger at the metallic part of the alps housing, the sound out of the IEMs goes off like a lawnmower. Again with my Beyers or AKGs I can't hear anything...


 
   
  This is covered earlier in the thread.


----------



## creal

Quote:  





> Edit: Have you tried dynamic iem's and same problem?


 
  I tried some cheap dynamic iems and the background noise is there too. My question right now: could the reason for the hum/hiss solely be the potentiometer itself?
   
   
  Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *Mad Max*
> 
> This is covered earlier in the thread.


 
  I read everything considering ground problems in this thread. It's just I can't hear any noise with my dt880 or even the k530. Why is that the case, just because of the relatively high impedance (Beyer) or the inefficient drivers (AKG)?
   
  I'am sorry if it's sound like I just asking dozens of question and don't do any research myself. In the last couple of days I have spent lots of hours to learn more about amps and drivers in this and other boards/blogs. I just wanna be sure since I'am somewhat new to this topic (or at least to the technical aspects of it).
   
*Edit:* I grounded the pot's case and at least there is no more humming if someone touches the knob but there is still an audible background noise with any iem's I have tried 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. That's why I squeezed a wire between the bottom screw and the case and connected it directly to ground. Hoped the toroid would'nt be corretly grounded, but it didn't effected the background noise at all.


----------



## Mad Max

For the toroidal, you unscrew and rescrew the, er, hex screw there several times to wear away excess paint, allowing the screw to better make contact wherever it needs to to make the connection to ground.
 When I said that there might be a ground loop somewhere, I did not mean from within the M-Stage.  The issue comes from your home's wiring or from the way you have your equipment connected (as far as power).  That's beyond most of us here, lol.  This is all assuming that you already fixed any issues with the toroidal or volume pot not being properly grounded.
   
  In the end, you should still notice a little hiss with IEMs, but with your Beyers and AKGs, you should not
 You are right, the inefficiency of your full-sized headphones is the reason why they don't hiss/hum.


----------



## creal

Quote: 





mad max said:


> For the toroidal, you unscrew and rescrew the, er, hex screw there several times to wear away excess paint, allowing the screw to better make contact wherever it needs to to make the connection to ground.


 
  I already un- and rescrewed the screw a few times, just to check if a lose toroid could be the source of noise. And  the screw is definitely connected  to ground, I checked it with a multimeter.
   
   
  Quote: 





> Quote:Originally Posted by *Mad Max* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> When I said that there might be a ground loop somewhere, I did not mean from within the M-Stage.  The issue comes from your home's wiring or from the way you have your equipment connected (as far as power).


 
  Tried several different wall plugs within our house, unfortunately that didn't changed anything. Maybe I should take that little amp to somewhere else, just to assure that our wiring isn't an issue.
    
  Quote:


> Quote:Originally Posted by *Mad Max* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> This is all assuming that you already fixed any issues with the toroidal or volume pot not being properly grounded.


 
   
  Well, at least there is no additional hum if I touch the pot right now 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
   
   
  Quote: 





> Quote:Originally Posted by *Mad Max* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> In the end, you should still notice a little hiss with IEMs, but with your Beyers and AKGs, you should not
> You are right, the inefficiency of your full-sized headphones is the reason why they don't hiss/hum.


 

 Most people and reviews said their M-Stage doesn't hiss at 0 gain if they keep the volume just below max, even with their most sensitive custom IEMs. That's obviously not the case here - although I tried less efficient IEMs too.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





creal said:


> I already un- and rescrewed the screw a few times, just to check if a lose toroid could be the source of noise. And  the screw is definitely connected  to ground, I checked it with a multimeter.
> 
> 
> Tried several different wall plugs within our house, unfortunately that didn't changed anything. Maybe I should take that little amp to somewhere else, just to assure that our wiring isn't an issue.
> ...


 
   
  Try getting one of those plug-in receptacle testers from the hardware store to ensure that your house wiring is grounded properly and Line and Neutral are correctly oriented.
  Whatever you do, do not cut off the ground pin on the AC cord!


----------



## creal

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Whatever you do, do not cut off the ground pin on the AC cord!


 
  Cutting off protective earth would be indeed a pretty stupid idea, especially if your favorite electronic device comes with a metal housing 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
   
  Btw: both N and PE seems to be conntected properly. Therefore something amp-internal has to be wrong.


----------



## wilky61

Been listening to my FLAC collection with AKG Q701 by way of a FiiO E17 for the last month... finally decided to sell my E17 (for $30 more than the price for which I bought it, no less) and to upgrade to the Matrix M-Stage. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Hopefully I won't have to wait too long on the postage for the device to arrive. I have never owned anything like a desktop amp/DAC before (the E17 was my first such purchase) so I am really looking forward to playing around with my new toy and the LM4562 I ordered simultaneously from eBay.
   
  Probably gonna buy a high-grade USB cable while I'm at it... I'm thinking of getting one of those silver-cored Pangea Audio USB cables from Amazon because I have a bunch of credit there.
   
   
   
  Also, one noob question to which I'm pretty sure I know the answer, you would never want to use the line-out on the back of the M-Stage to power headphones due to output impedance, right?


----------



## genclaymore

One of the RCA's on the rear is for fixed level output for plugging into a powered speaker system.  You would use the Front 6.3 jack for the headphone's. Your AKG should had came with a 6.3 converter plug.


----------



## Greeni

Got the M-stage, after some run-in I could relate to others' comment that this is a dark sounding amp.
   
  It is difficult to describe and we have different terminology, but it is not a roll off of treble as such. It is more like a tonality thing, as if the tonal colors are stripped away and left with a monotonous blackish tone.
   
  Mine has been owned for a week only but now put on for sale forum, it is a 230 volt version for Europe. Not that it is bad, just that my other existing amps may serve me better.


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





wilky61 said:


> Been listening to my FLAC collection with AKG Q701 by way of a FiiO E17 for the last month... finally decided to sell my E17 (for $30 more than the price for which I bought it, no less) and to upgrade to the Matrix M-Stage.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  While the M-stage is a good amp, the DAC in the M-stage won't be as good as the one in the E17.


----------



## wilky61

So, do you think I may be disappointed in the M-Stage?
   
  Quote: 





chicolom said:


> While the M-stage is a good amp, the DAC in the M-stage won't be as good as the one in the E17.


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





wilky61 said:


> So, do you think I may be disappointed in the M-Stage?


 
   
  Not with the amp, but it only has a $30 DAC in it, so I don't think it's fair to judge its performance based off using it's own DAC.  I think it's better paired with an external DAC.


----------



## wilky61

Okay, sorry I'm sure it's been asked before, but now you're going to have to give me a hint -- what are some external DACs that Head-Fi'ers have paired with the Matrix M-Stage before? Any recommendations? Thanks.
   
  Quote: 





chicolom said:


> Not with the amp, but it only has a $30 DAC in it, so I don't think it's fair to judge its performance based off using it's own DAC.  I think it's better paired with an external DAC.


----------



## Mad Max

NFB-2 + M-Stage should kill.
   
  HRT Streamer II+ is the one I've seen recommended quite a bit.


----------



## wilky61

Ah, so the $350 Streamer comes recommended over the $150 model? (if one's budget can support it? )
   
  So this is why they said "sorry for your wallet" -- dang, I probably shoulda known that I'd be getting myself into this, and I probably should've just stuck with my $150 E17. 
   
  EDIT: Well, a bit of good news, I emailed TamAudio and asked if it were possible to switch my order to the $30-cheaper model of the M-Stage (with the dual-RCA inputs instead), and they just emailed me back to say "Sure, no problem."
   
  Quote: 





mad max said:


> NFB-2 + M-Stage should kill.
> 
> HRT Streamer II+ is the one I've seen recommended quite a bit.


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





wilky61 said:


> Ah, so the $350 Streamer comes recommended over the $150 model? (if one's budget can support it? )


 
   
  I think the HRT MS II (not + version) is supposed to be the best bang for buck in the HRT lineup, and gives ~90% of the performance of the $350 model.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





greeni said:


> Got the M-stage, after some run-in I could relate to others' comment that this is a dark sounding amp.
> 
> It is difficult to describe and we have different terminology, but it is not a roll off of treble as such. It is more like a tonality thing, as if the tonal colors are stripped away and left with a monotonous blackish tone.
> 
> Mine has been owned for a week only but now put on for sale forum, it is a 230 volt version for Europe. Not that it is bad, just that my other existing amps may serve me better.Yes,


 
   
  Yes, I agree, it is a dark sounding amp, but I find the darkness nicely compliments my somewhat bright Q701 'phones.
  I agree, it does not seem to be rolled off treble, it is some unexplainable (to me) blackish tone.
  But I really do find that it works really well with Q701s. I've had the M Stage for approx. 9 months now and have no plans to give it up. I'm listening to this combo right now!
  Personally I don't like using the M with my DT880s as those 'phones sound a bit flatter (to me). I do not find that the M Stage and DT880/600 are a good match.
  The M certainly has enough voltage (or power) to drive the 600 ohm DT880s and has enough voltage to drive my archaic 2,000 ohm Senns so it is not an electrical drive thing, it is just one of those synergy things.
  As I have mentioned earlier in way too many posts to count I have settled on the M with an LM4562 Op Amp! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  And having said all this, someday I would like to get a more neutral solid state head amp, the O2 perhaps?


----------



## wilky61

Okay, decided to drop $295 (thank you to Amazon 6-month no-interest financing 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) on an HRT Music Streamer II+. I feel a little bit crazy having dropped over $500 this week on audio equipment, but I think I will have a pretty legitimate setup now... FLAC > HRT MS2+ > Matrix M-Stage (LM4562 opamp) > AKG Q701. I am pretty excited to hear the HRT MS2+, though, because everything I read about it seems to suit my listening preferences.
  
  Any particular recommendations on interconnects for those of you who have similar setups? Anybody tried the 4% silver-coated Pangea Audio USB cable for $20 or the solid silver Pangea Audio USB cable for $50? Notice a difference between the two? Then there's also the second-tier Wireworld Starlight USB for $80 to consider...
   
  As far as the RCA interconnects between the DAC/amp, I was looking at the BJC LC-1 cable because I really don't want to spend tons of money on cables, but I do want to rest assured that I'm not bottlenecking my system with the interconnects... Of course, there are also Monoprice interconnects that can be had for a couple bucks apiece...
   
  Any thoughts on the matter? Thanks so much; you guys have been very helpful in fueling my audiophile addiction, and I would be in the dark without Head-Fi.


----------



## Chris J

wilky61 said:


> Okay, decided to drop $295 (thank you to Amazon 6-month no-interest financing  ) on an HRT Music Streamer II+. I feel a little bit crazy having dropped over $500 this week on audio equipment, but I think I will have a pretty legitimate setup now... FLAC > HRT MS2+ > Matrix M-Stage (LM4562 opamp) > AKG Q701. I am pretty excited to hear the HRT MS2+, though, because everything I read about it seems to suit my listening preferences. Then there's also the second-tier Wireworld Starlight USB for $80 to consider...
> 
> 
> Any particular recommendations on interconnects for those of you who have similar setups? Anybody tried the 4% silver-coated Pangea Audio USB cable for $20 or the solid silver Pangea Audio USB cable for $50? Notice a difference between the two?
> ...




Yes, you're crazy!
At this level interconnects really don't make too much difference, but if you really must, I would get a decent interconnect before I would drop any dough on a Hi End USB cable. That would be your best bang for the buck.
At this price point I would only look for a well constructed USB cable with a good warranty.

Just my opinion.


----------



## chicolom

I use monoprice USB and interconnects, and I doubt I could hear a difference between them and pricier ones.


----------



## wilky61

Okay, honestly it would be good news for my wallet if I went the Monoprice route. 

In response to a comment Chris made, about there not being much of an audible difference at this price level, exactly at what price level would you place the threshold? Also, are you referring to the price level of the overall components or the cables specifically?

Like, maybe there's not much of a difference between a $1 Cu USB cable and a $20 Cu Cable, but maybe there's a difference when we jump up to the level of several hundred dollar Ag cables, etc.?

In any case, I appreciate all of the wisdom and the discussion.


----------



## wilky61

All right, I think this should be my last post regarding everybody's favorite subject of cables...
   
  I'm assuming the HRT MS2+ comes with a USB cable (right?), so there may not be a need for me to order one from Monoprice. (Stock cable vs. $1 Monoprice cable = same, right?)
   
  But then I looked around my house and found a cheap RCA cable lying around; it is basically this $1 Monoprice RCA-to-RCA cable.
   
  Do you think there's any difference between that cable and the $2.25 Monoprice premium cable with the thicker gauge, etc?
  It is worth noting that my RCA cable is about 6 feet in length whereas those premium cables come as short as 1.5 ft (not sure if the length matters so much when the run is this short).
   
   
   
  If I can save myself the expense of placing a $6 order from Monoprice with the freebie cables I have lying around, then I should save myself $6 right?


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





wilky61 said:


> Also, are you referring to the price level of the overall components or the cables specifically?
> Like, maybe there's not much of a difference between a $1 Cu USB cable and a $20 Cu Cable, but maybe there's a difference when we jump up to the level of several hundred dollar Ag cables, etc.?


 

 I think Chris means that the rest of your chain (source + amp + headphones) isn't revealing enough to warrant upgrading cables (you won't notice any differences in pricier cables).  Cables are the last thing I worry about upgrading, as headphones, amps, and sources make a bigger difference in the sound (in that order too). 
   
  The monoprice premium RCA cables probably sound no different, they are just extra thick and sturdy and the connectors are more solid.
   
  I don't think the HRT DACS comes with a USB cable, I don't remember one in my box.  I use one like this > http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=103&cp_id=10303&cs_id=1030301&p_id=5436&seq=1&format=2


----------



## the search never ends

HRT's don't come with a cable. A pretty decent one from an outfit called planetwaves is on the bay for 8 bucks. And cfg guy sells one for 5 free shipping, I prefer the planetwave. The pangea is very nice for 20 dollars, but with most of the higher end usb cables, the cord is much stiffer which could be a problem is space is limited. The Starlight is overpriced, but at least it's flexible. Interconnects, you can get some pretty decent ones for 10-20 dollars. Everyone saying don't spend too much on cables is right, The streamer II is very close to the Streamer II+ of course, the reason they offer so much good sound for the money being they are simple devices, and no frills, be prepared to spend 500+ to make much of a difference and then only with a better amp and cans. And often an upgraded power supply.
   
  Back to cables, switching from 8 dollar interconnects to a 23 dollar pair of monster interconnects is discernable. Switching from the 8 dollar planetwave usb cable to the pangea, or kimber I can't say I reliably hear a difference, possibly a placebo thing now and again. I don't know anything about monoprice stuff, it would seem odd to use a one dollar usb cable to hook up a nice setup for me.  Both HRT's have pretty good synergy with the M stage IMO. The + beats the dacmagic unless you upgrade the power supply on it.


----------



## NoodleBoy91

How does the sound from the matirx m stage compare with the nuforce icon hdp?

 Also how would i get optical audio from this and also a USB input to plug into my computer?


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





chicolom said:


> I think Chris means that the rest of your chain (source + amp + headphones) isn't revealing enough to warrant upgrading cables (you won't notice any differences in pricier cables).  Cables are the last thing I worry about upgrading, as headphones, amps, and sources make a bigger difference in the sound (in that order too).
> 
> The monoprice premium RCA cables probably sound no different, they are just extra thick and sturdy and the connectors are more solid.
> 
> I don't think the HRT DACS comes with a USB cable, I don't remember one in my box.  I use one like this > http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=103&cp_id=10303&cs_id=1030301&p_id=5436&seq=1&format=2


 
   
  Yes,  that's what I was trying to say, with that source + amp + headphones upgraded cables won't do much for you.
  Personally I can only hear the differences cables make when I used "audiophile cables" in fairly high end systems.
  It's always a good idea to use like materaials with like materials for the cables and iput jacks:   you know, use cables with gold plated plugs if you have equipment with gold plated jacks to ensure you don't get wierd long term corrosive reactions from dissimilar metals.  I'm not a metalurgist so I'm no expert on this.
   
  Don't tell the guys on the Science Forumwhat I sadi about cables, they'll go crazy! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  (The Science Forum is really a front for "Cable Haters Anonymous!)


----------



## tolame4aname

I think its been drummed in by now, but again every1 is 100% right. Dont throw $$ away on expensive cables. A $20 cable over a $2 might be a good call, but a $200 one probably wont sound any different with this amp. 
   
  When getting into this i stupidly spent a fortune on a bunch of chord chameleon RCA's and shielded power cables. Was an absolute waste of money and one of those few times in life i felt seriously ripped off and like i had just thrown my money away.
   
  Upgrading my pc to dac cable def made a small difference. But the other RCA's and power cables did nothing at all and i am yet to find anyone who can tell the difference on my system. Def learnt the hard way there and even harder to resell them as ill loose so much. Still pissed at myself for believing the marketing hype. Unless you have a super sexy +10k system and $$ to burn, DONT DO IT!!! 
   
  Not a flame btw, (lol just in case) . Just my own experience with rega dac, matrix amp, k702's and Swan T200b speakers.....


----------



## Chris J

tolame4aname said:


> I think its been drummed in by now, but again every1 is 100% right. Dont throw $$ away on expensive cables. A $20 cable over a $2 might be a good call, but a $200 one probably wont sound any different with this amp.
> 
> When getting into this i stupidly spent a fortune on a bunch of chord chameleon RCA's and shielded power cables. Was an absolute waste of money and one of those few times in life i felt seriously ripped off and like i had just thrown my money away.
> 
> ...




Hey man, just curious, what kind of cable did you use from PC to DAC?

No flames here!


----------



## Mad Max

LOL
   
  Grab a


Spoiler: Warning%3A%20Spoiler!



set of Monster M1000 RCA


  And call it a day.
   
  ;D


----------



## tolame4aname

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Hey man, just curious, what kind of cable did you use from PC to DAC?
> No flames here!


 
   
  I started with a very cheap $5 one. . And upgraded it to a Chord Prodac. I think any upgrade from the cheap original would have made some difference though, the original was pretty suss and dac lost its input lock once or twice which would come back with a wiggle of the cable. Haven't had that problem since at least...


----------



## SPEKker

Hello guys.

My set up is Asus ST - - > Q701 and Altec's Speaker now.
It is very easy to switch between speaker and headphone through Xonar software. However, the Amp inside ST couldnt drive Q701 properly.

After I read this thread , it is appears that M Stage is a good mate with my AKG, but im afraid of inconvenience in switching between Headphone and Speaker.

The question is:
1. The M Stage has Headphone out and Line Out right? So can I plug both my speaker and Q701 in it then choose which one will be operate through the M Stage Hardware.

2. Should I purchase the 1/4 to RCA? This way I can Plug the converter to my xonar's 1/4 and have a RCA from there to MStage input. Then my speaker can plug into xonar directly. I can still manage switching between device through software this way though.

Answer to any of the question or suggestions is appreciate though.


----------



## Mad Max

The M-Stage has a preamp output, yes.  Line-out is for DACs/soundcards.
  So you would plug your Q701 into the headphone jack and your speakers into the preamp output on the back of the M-Stage and control the volume with the M-Stage.  However, the preamp output cannot be shut off, so the speakers need to be off when using your headphones or you get sound from both simultaneously.  Likewise, your Q701 must be unplugged or you will get sound from them while using speakers.
  The adapter is unnecessary.


----------



## SPEKker

mad max said:


> The M-Stage has a preamp output, yes.  Line-out is for DACs/soundcards.
> So you would plug your Q701 into the headphone jack and your speakers into the preamp output on the back of the M-Stage and control the volume with the M-Stage.  However, the preamp output cannot be shut off, so the speakers need to be off when using your headphones or you get sound from both simultaneously.  Likewise, your Q701 must be unplugged or you will get sound from them while using speakers.
> The adapter is unnecessary.




Thx for ur reply.

Anyone has a 2012 model? How does it sound compare to the old one?


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





spekker said:


> Thx for ur reply.
> 
> Anyone has a 2012 model? How does it sound compare to the old one?


 
   
  Should be the same.  The changes are a ventilated case and a optional USB DAC, but the amp is the same AFAIK.


----------



## SPEKker

Thanks for clarify me


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





chicolom said:


> Should be the same.  The changes are a ventilated case and a optional USB DAC, but the amp is the same AFAIK.


 
   
  I don't understand. Wouldn't the newer Matrix M Stage headphone amp sound "airier"?


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





chris j said:


> I don't understand. Wouldn't the newer Matrix M Stage headphone amp sound "airier"?


 
   
   
  Yes, actually it does have increased airiness and a cooler sound (sounds lukewarm now).


----------



## tolame4aname

I made mine sound warmer by changing the cold blue led to a nice warm red one.... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 hehe
   
  Matches my rega dac better too


----------



## Chris J

I prefer the sound of my non vented M Stage, it has a nice warm vintage tone to it!


----------



## wilky61

Got my HRT MS2+ yesterday and my Matrix M-Stage today... Is it normal to hear little staticky blips throughout all of your FLACs? So far I am pretty disappointed... I don't know if the problem is with my FLACs, with the DAC, with the stock opamp that came inside the M-Stage, or with some setting on my computer... What do you guys think?
  
  Also, Foobar2000 is constantly freezing at the start of my songs whenever I select a song to play. It doesn't always do this, maybe about 80% of the time. It will play the first second of a song, then cut off. I will have to right click the song, hit Stop, hit Play again, and sometimes repeat once or twice until finally the song plays. When it toggles between tracks automatically on an album, it doesn't have this problem. I have right clicked the volume/playback devices icon in the bottom right corner of Windows 7 and chosen 24 bit/96 khz playback, but so far I have only tried playing 16/44.1 songs. However, when I toggle those WIndows settings to 24/44.1 or 24/48, Foobar still has the same difficulty playing songs.


----------



## Mad Max

Probably the software settings.  What are you using?


----------



## wilky61

Hi Mad Max,
   
  How do you mean software settings? Windows settings? Foobar settings? What specifically?
   
  EDIT: Okay here's something, in Foobar2000 when I change it from WASAPI (HRT MS2+) to DS (HRT MS2+), the blips go away. DS for Direct Sound.
  Also, I don't have the problem with Foobar refusing to play my songs when I take it off WASAPI...
   
  EDIT2: Tried to download a Kernel Streaming plugin for Foobar... still hear blips.
  Tried to download an ASIO plugin for Foobar... Foobar doesn't even execute.
   
  Guess I'm stuck with Direct Sound?
  Maybe I should try posting in a thread about the HRT Music Streamer rather than here?
   
  EDIT3: Just found this, looks like I have some reading to do:
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/593826/hrt-headstreamer-wasapi-woes-in-foobar
   
  EDIT4: Thinking of dropping Foobar in favor of MusicBee, which doesn't seem to have any problems with my HRT MS2+.
   
  Quote: 





mad max said:


> Probably the software settings.  What are you using?


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





wilky61 said:


> Hi Mad Max,
> 
> How do you mean software settings? Windows settings? Foobar settings? What specifically?
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  I use and LOVE MusicBee.  I use WASAPI straight to the HRT MS II.


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





wilky61 said:


> Hi Mad Max,
> 
> How do you mean software settings? Windows settings? Foobar settings? What specifically?
> 
> ...


 
   
  You set the playback buffer too low or too high.  This always needs to be tweaked.
_File_ > P_references_ > _Output_ > _Buffer length_
  I use it on 100ms.  If you get blips, raise it a bit.  If you still get blips, raise it some more.  Keep going until the blips stop.


----------



## wilky61

When I was still fiddling with Foobar settings earlier, I had tried as low as 100ms, 250ms (where it was originally), as high as 700ms and 960 or so ms... Not 100% sure, but I think Foobar's WASAPI plugin just has problems with HRT DACs (seeing how frequently other users were reporting problems with Foobar/WASAPI/HRT MS2.
   
  I haven't had and problems at all since I switched to MusicBee, and MusicBee actually has the best interface I've ever used as well. I am currently rocking out to Parliament's _Mothership Connection_ right now in 24/96, and this has never sounded better. The soundstage has so much depth, and the variety of bass frequencies is so clearly articulated. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I am going to have fun for a while discovering my music all over again. Thanks again for all of your help as I have been getting myself setup here. 
   
  @chicolom: Indeed. MusicBee is the s***.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Quote: 





mad max said:


> You set the playback buffer too low or too high.  This always needs to be tweaked.
> _File_ > P_references_ > _Output_ > _Buffer length_
> I use it on 100ms.  If you get blips, raise it a bit.  If you still get blips, raise it some more.  Keep going until the blips stop.


----------



## wilky61

Super noob question: How bad is it for your amp to leave it on when it's not in use? Will it still run hot?
   
  Obviously I'm going to try to remember to flip the switch on the back of this thing whenever it's not in use, but if I listen to a few albums, forget to turn it off, and run to the store for an hour with my music paused, what's the worst that could happen?
   
   
  BTW, loving the combination of the HRT MS2+ and the M-Stage (stock opamp atm) so far; thanks to those who helped me arrive at this combo. Comparing the sound I am experiencing now to my E17 that I sold about 10 days ago, I would say that there are two things I notice most. First, the bass has a lot more resonance... it's less flabby if you know what I mean (sorry my descriptors are so noob-ish, still learning the language). Also, I would say that there is more variation in the bass frequencies; there is no longer this "sameness" to all bass sounds. Secondly, this DAC is far more detailed than the E17... This is the first time I've ever heard that "vinyl popping/cracking" in my 24/96 FLAC rips, and in other songs I am hearing guitar textures and instruments subtly in the background that I have never heard before.


----------



## Mad Max

Nothing bad.  Heat is the enemy of all electronics, so turn your amp off when not in use.


----------



## Dutchi MerenGue

does anyone know if there are any fake matrix m stages being sold? i ask because i just recieved mine from a seller on ebay (who has very high feedback and i believe to be a store) and while it looks high quality and like the genuine article when i compare them to online pictures of other peoples units, theres something about the sound i dont know how to describe it, it could also just be in my head
   
   
   
  im using akg k601's and i mainly bought the mstage because i would have to max out the vol pot on my grant fidelity tubedac 11 to drive them, i ran the dac out straight into the m stage inputs and have to do basically the same thing on the m stage and max it out to get any type of decent listening levels, should i be concerned?


----------



## Mad Max

Set the gain to 10.  Look on the bottom of the amplifier.


----------



## Dutchi MerenGue

lol yeah after about an hour sitting around playing with the settings and interconnects i had a "duhhhh" moment and started playing with the gain settings, 10 was good but i had to move to pot past 3 oclock at somewhere around 5 or 6 to get the volume i desired so i just set it at 18 and scaled it back down to around 1 or 2, im pretty happy now


----------



## Chris J

dutchi merengue said:


> lol yeah after about an hour sitting around playing with the settings and interconnects i had a "duhhhh" moment and started playing with the gain settings, 10 was good but i had to move to pot past 3 oclock at somewhere around 5 or 6 to get the volume i desired so i just set it at 18 and scaled it back down to around 1 or 2, im pretty happy now




How loud do you listen?
Or are K601s that inefficient?


----------



## Dutchi MerenGue

i listen loud enough that it drowns out outside noise but nowhere near max, with all my other headphones and even my swan m10's i never push the volume knob past 3 oclock but the akg k601's are power hungry beasts
   
   
   
  i bought the matrix m stage specifically for those phones and those phones alone, i would have to max out the volume on my grant fidelity tubedac 11 to get even close to decent volume levels, but now with the m stage after i played with the gain settings im pretty happy as can be lol
   
   
   
  at gain of 10 it gave it enough juice to get to a level i was comfortable with but i felt i had to turn the knob a little to close to max on some songs whereas a gain of 18 gives me more versatilty with where i can set the volume pot and gave me the volume levels i was looking for


----------



## EinZweiDrei

Quote: 





dutchi merengue said:


> i listen loud enough that it drowns out outside noise but nowhere near max, with all my other headphones and even my swan m10's i never push the volume knob past 3 oclock but the akg k601's are power hungry beasts
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 my listening volume is at 9 o clock position with gain setting of 10 and i find that plenty loud. with my k701s


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





einzweidrei said:


> my listening volume is at 9 o clock position with gain setting of 10 and i find that plenty loud. with my k701s


 
   
  Yes, that is what I find when I listen to a loud, compressed recording.
  With a recording with lots of dynamic range, then I usually set volume closer to 11 o'clock with my Qs.
   
_Obviously all this depends on how hot the signal is from your source to your Matrix._


----------



## Sort

I've happily connected my Cowon J3 with Matrix for my AKG 702's for over a year now. Love the adjustable EQ and soundeffects of Cowon, but Mstage definitely needs to be on 20 gain setting to properly amp. I don't have a real quality DAC, so the sound on my J3 exceeds pumping through my computer when you can set back the gain setting to 10. I also dig how the bass gets strengthened over the tonality with a higher grain setting. Always compromises, but those AKG are bright to begin with.


----------



## EinZweiDrei

can matrix m stage + hrt ms2 and k/q70x users help me with a listening test?

 this here is apparently a track for testing. from the looks of it the recording is good.
 i listen to this track at with my m stage's volume knob at 9 O' clock position. with 10gain
 i just wanted to know people's listening volume with the same setup as mine.
 im just wondering if its safe to turn up my my volume knob a bit more without damaging my ears.


----------



## the search never ends

double post


----------



## the search never ends

Quote: 





the search never ends said:


> I have the K701's and never heard the Q's but 10 oclock seems ok to me, very good recording, was a real treat listening to it ^^^^^^^^


 
   
  Edit,  It sounded better with the 2+ back in the chain, so......very good recording!!
   
  Second edit: I directly compared this recording to the same song on MOG epic fail for MOG, wow


----------



## musicbased

I am about to buy an m stage for my birthday treat!
   
*Question*: I have a Hifiman hm801. Should i use this as the dac and get just the amp, or get the new usb dac version and leave the hifiman for portable use?
  Using the hifiman dac involves getting a usb to spdif converter, which means more leads etc, but i don't know how much that would affect the sound..?
   
  I know the hifiman dac has got mixed reviews,but it must be better than a $30 dac right? ...


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





musicbased said:


> I am about to buy an m stage for my birthday treat!
> 
> *Question*: I have a Hifiman hm801. Should i use this as the dac and get just the amp, or get the new usb dac version and leave the hifiman for portable use?
> Using the hifiman dac involves getting a usb to spdif converter, which means more leads etc, but i don't know how much that would affect the sound..?
> ...


 
  For another $30 you can get the Matrix with a DAC, I would get it with the DAC, worst that will happen is you've wasted $30!
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  It's also a very compact solution.
  I wouldn't think that a USB to SPDIF converter would sound that bad or affect the sound much.
   
  If you don't think it sounds good enough, get a better DAC when you have the funds.


----------



## EinZweiDrei

what are other good headphones that go well with m stage other than  akg K/Q70x


----------



## wilky61

Paused the David Bowie album to which I had been listening to check out your YouTube link.
  From where I left off in the Bowie album, my volume knob was at 12 o'clock (beneath the L in VOLUME). 10 gain, of course.
  I would say at this position, your song is very slightly soft for my liking. I moved the knob over to the M/E in VOLUME... looks pretty close to 1 o'clock to me.
   
  Yeah, not a bad song. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  Quote: 





einzweidrei said:


> can matrix m stage + hrt ms2 and k/q70x users help me with a listening test?
> 
> this here is apparently a track for testing. from the looks of it the recording is good.
> i listen to this track at with my m stage's volume knob at 9 O' clock position. with 10gain
> ...


----------



## Chris J

einzweidrei said:


> what are other good headphones that go well with m stage other than  akg K/Q70x




An excellent question!
Anybody have any opinions?
Do Grados go well with the M?

I certainly don't have an answer, but I DON'T recommend DT880s with the M.


----------



## purrin

The stock M-Stage is all so slightly warm. It works with a lot of headphones, but it's not one of those colored amps which is going to take the edge off a lot of problematic headphones. Personally, I had no issues with HF2 or PS1000s (but modded with TP over the drivers to tone down treble.)


----------



## the search never ends

I have the 325's and it sounds good, My beyer 990's sound kind of rough, I really prefer tubes for beyers. Adds a holographic stage to them.


----------



## chicolom

Head-Fi Jeopardy:
   
   


     "...By far the most popularly paired amp with the AKG K/Q701 headphones on Head-Fi..."
   


        "What is an m-stage?"


----------



## wilky61

HAHAHA. I think you just likened me to Alec Trebek, but this was *very tastefully done*, chico. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Quote: 





chicolom said:


> Head-Fi Jeopardy:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Chris J

chicolom said:


> Head-Fi Jeopardy:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Hmmmmm, I don't remember that episode!
Did he win?


----------



## Chris J

the search never ends said:


> I have the 325's and it sounds good, My beyer 990's sound kind of rough, I really prefer tubes for beyers. Adds a holographic stage to them.




The nice thing about 600 ohm Beyers is you can easily drive them with a vacuum tube OTL amp!
At 600 ohms you don't need to worry about OTLs with 50-100 ohm output impedances.

DT880 with the M has a tendency to sound bland with a lot of recordings. But with some rock recordings the combo sounds great.


----------



## CAfromCA

I bought mine on Amazon and am loving it with my AKG701's and my Sennheisers. Made all the difference in the world!


----------



## hodgjy

Which version did you get? There seems to be a few versions being sold. Did yours come with the small vents in the side of the case?



cafromca said:


> I bought mine on Amazon and am loving it with my AKG701's and my Sennheisers. Made all the difference in the world!


----------



## the search never ends

Quote: 





chris j said:


> The nice thing about 600 ohm Beyers is you can easily drive them with a vacuum tube OTL amp!
> At 600 ohms you don't need to worry about OTLs with 50-100 ohm output impedances.
> DT880 with the M has a tendency to sound bland with a lot of recordings. But with some rock recordings the combo sounds great.


 
  Agreed, 100 percent, although from memory the 880's are a bit less colored than the 990's.  But yeah, even a cheap chinese hybrid will drive beyers decently enough, the woo audio 2 is splendid!!


----------



## the search never ends

Quote: 





hodgjy said:


> Which version did you get? There seems to be a few versions being sold. Did yours come with the small vents in the side of the case?


 
  As far as I know all versions marked 2011 or later have the vents, I'd get them from Tam audio/Coolfungadget, I would imagine he is only selling the vented ones now.  I have 2, and bought a third for a friend, all 3 have the slots.


----------



## the search never ends

Quote: 





cafromca said:


> I bought mine on Amazon and am loving it with my AKG701's and my Sennheisers. Made all the difference in the world!


 
  I'm geussing it was from Tam audio? I've seen them sold through amazon market from tam.


----------



## wilky61

I recently bought my M-Stage from TamAudio's site for $250, and it was a vented one. Shortly after I bought mine, I noticed that TamAudio started selling the M-Stage for $260 on Amazon Marketplace (previously, it had been $20-30 higher). I think it's pretty safe to presume that their Amazon Marketplace storefront sells the exact same products and that they created it for the publicity (I would also have to presume that the higher price on Amazon Marketplace is due to Amazon's commission).
   
  Quote: 





the search never ends said:


> As far as I know all versions marked 2011 or later have the vents, I'd get them from Tam audio/Coolfungadget, I would imagine he is only selling the vented ones now.  I have 2, and bought a third for a friend, all 3 have the slots.


----------



## Chris J

the search never ends said:


> As far as I know all versions marked 2011 or later have the vents, I'd get them from Tam audio/Coolfungadget, I would imagine he is only selling the vented ones now.  I have 2, and bought a third for a friend, all 3 have the slots.




I bought one in the middle of 2011, it does not have vents.

The vents give the M an airier sound.


----------



## the search never ends

Quote: 





chris j said:


> I bought one in the middle of 2011, it does not have vents.
> The vents give the M an airier sound.


 
  lmao


----------



## EinZweiDrei

Quote: 





chris j said:


> I bought one in the middle of 2011, it does not have vents.
> The vents give the M an airier sound.


 

 oh what should i do i want a warmer sound.


----------



## musicbased

You can buy custom made jackets for the m stage from amazon.
  Undo the zip for a more open sound.


----------



## whookash

Hi I've just bought HD 600 for mixing producing etc. after tryin out lots of cans i prefered 600's much more than any other. now i need  an Amp so i  consider buying Matrix, however i own an interface Lexicon Lambda but it has just super bad HP out, my N8 phone sounds much better, maybe it's just lack of power in it I dont know it also got monitor L/R outputs , so my question is can i make something out of it ? how to connect it all ? or should i get Matrix with USB ?


 Thanks in advance.


 I wanna connect it so i can use monitors at the same time ofc.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





einzweidrei said:


> oh what should i do i want a warmer sound.


 
   
  Put it in a nice down filled jacket, of course!


----------



## WestLander

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Put it in a nice down filled jacket, of course!


 
   
  Make sure it is ethically sourced, organic goosedown, or else the top end gets a bit honky


----------



## musicbased

Whookash, i would just get the usb matrix. Keep it nice and simple! ...


----------



## Chris J

westlander said:


> Make sure it is ethically sourced, organic goosedown, or else the top end gets a bit honky :wink_face:




I hate to disagree but in my opinion the top end can get a squawky when you use organic goose down


----------



## buqiuren

Here's my impression on the M-stage.
   
  I had it for about 3 weeks. It's the amp only, 2012 version with vents.
  I also have the audio-gb NFB-5, a amp/DAC.
  So it's PC > NFB5 > M-stage > AD900/T50RP/HD600
   
  I have the stock op amp, 627, 4562, 49860. I was quite disappointed when I first listen to this thing, no matter what op amp or headphones I tried. It could be my DAC i guess. So i let it burn in for a few days. But things didn't get better. When I compared the M-stage with the NFB-5 amp section (same op amp used on both), the M-stage was lacking details, lacking texture in the instruments and the separation was not as good as the NFB-5. So I thought maybe it was an unfair comparison. 
   
  I took out my Yulong U100, a dac/amp combo, about US$200. using the U100 as DAC and I compared the amp section to the M-stage.
  PC > U100 > M-stage
  This time the margin was smaller, but the M-stage was still lacking. I tried switching the op amp on the M-stage, the best sounding (to me) was the 49860. But I find myself enjoying the music much more on the U100 than the m-stage. 
   
  Previously, I've owned the NFB12 and tried O2, c421. 
   
  If i were to rank all of these amp in *MY PREFERENCE*:
  NFB-5 > O2 > c421 > NFB12 > U100 > M-stage
   
  Again, this is just my opinion. I returned it after 3 weeks. No regrets.


----------



## EinZweiDrei

my k701 drivers does this when i turn off my m stage while its plugged in. is that safe?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCZ-AJQOiDg


----------



## Chris J

einzweidrei said:


> my k701 drivers does this when i turn off my m stage while its plugged in. is that safe?
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCZ-AJQOiDg




No way is that safe, sooner or later that will destroy your headphones.
Is the volume all the way down?
Do you hear a loud thump thru the 'phones when you do this?
Bets thing to do is to always unplug 'phones from an amp before you turn any amp off.


----------



## EinZweiDrei

Quote: 





chris j said:


> No way is that safe, sooner or later that will destroy your headphones.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  i think this explains the popping noise people hear through their phones when they turn on or off their m stage.


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





einzweidrei said:


> my k701 drivers does this when i turn off my m stage while its plugged in. is that safe?
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCZ-AJQOiDg


 
   
  That's a little scary looking.  I think I will unplug my Q701 before power cycling from now on...


----------



## EinZweiDrei

Quote: 





chicolom said:


> That's a little scary looking.  I think I will unplug my Q701 before power cycling from now on...


 
  btw tell me if theres any changes in the sound after the practice of unplugging ur q701s before power cycles.
 because when i listening to my k701's i hear different variations in its sound during multiple uses.
 hopefully im not going crazy.


----------



## musicbased

what sort of variations?


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





einzweidrei said:


> btw tell me if theres any changes in the sound after the practice of unplugging ur q701s before power cycles.
> because when i listening to my k701's i hear different variations in its sound during multiple uses.
> hopefully im not going crazy.


 
   
  I don't think the sound changes on my Q701.  I can hear a soft "whump" if I have them plugged in an power up the M-stage.  I haven't looked at the drivers to see if they doing the same thing as that video.  
   
  Maybe your _are _going crazy after all


----------



## EinZweiDrei

Quote: 





musicbased said:


> what sort of variations?


 
  -one of the variations made my k701s sound like the best i've heard in headphones making me question if they're really headphones.
  vocals sounded smooth and warm and meaty. highs are smooth and a bit of sparky. bass was deep and smooth. sibilance was there but it didnt bothered me or sometimes it felt like it was suppose to be there and sometimes its enjoyable.
 -another variation only sounds like a more meaty ad700.
 -one variation which is extremely rare, bass is not bloated but i actually felt it rumble on my head. its not clipping or distortion.
 -one which is like the rumbling bass but with highs missing.
 -one which is really wierd no highs no mids and no bass. sounds lifeless. sometimes theres a more meaty version of this. this one here confuses me because i never heard anything like this. sometimes the volume is extremely low.
 -another variation people mentions on headfi, thin, dry. hard smacking in your ear and listening to it pisses me off. no dynamics. rough sounding. sounds like its trying to grind me up or something.
 -sometimes decays from cymbols are different. sometimes going "ksssssssh" or "kaattsssssh" or "KACHHHHSHSH"
 - sounds with this type of wave seem to be easily seperatable " { ". sometimes my k701 had no trouble seperating waves like
  this " ( " and other times its cant pick it out. this wave " { " was never an issue with anything. notice the curve wave " ( " and pointed wave " { ".

 these are the variations i remember. these are all tested with the same volume and gain setting. with the same songs over and over again.
 my room is very quiet. i posted this issue on on headfi hoping to obtain some semi helpful information a while ago and people made fun of me. semi trolled. say that what im experiencing is not possible at all and all placebo effect (atleast this sounds reasonable). i've read about psycoacoustics and various place effects on sound. yet im still experiecing these variations. either im going crazy, somethings up with my ears (i checked almost 3-4 times a week i hear from 20hz to 16k). somethings wrong with my HRT MS2, my m stage or my k701.
  or maybe my k701's drivers are damaged or wearing out. my k701's always sit on my table and have never taken a hit from any substance like food or liquid and never dropped on the floor or any surface. i always checked to see if hair is touching driver as well. i got this semi OCD thing. i even unplugged all my components once in a while.

 as for my settings its HRT MS2 at max volume, matrix m stage at 10gain (didnt mistake the black for white) with volume knob at 9 o clock of every song ( i even put a piece of white tape cut into a shape on a triangle on the position of my listening volume).
 sorry if i sound like im in a bad mood or something because last time i posted the same thing in hope of useful information only to look like a fool. most likely my experience is placebo or component issues. to me these variation are too different to be called placebo. i am not on any medication or drugs. i have no illness or what so ever. i dont do drugs, smoke or drink (yea call me a looser). so my physical health is out of the question.

 as for usage i use it everyday from for 4-6hours. sometimes even 8 hours.

 PS - and anyways this is a m stage thread so sorry this post.


----------



## Chris J

einzweidrei said:


> i think this explains the popping noise people hear through their phones when they turn on or off their m stage.




Yes, that is the source of that loud popping noise!
Very destructive!:mad:


----------



## the search never ends

Anyone with an M stage that doesn't own the x701 akg's seems like it's the overwhelming majority. I was very pleasantly surprised at how it matches up with the HD650 as well. Which led me to purchasing a second one, coolest thing about the 650 is changing amps is kin to changing cans, sources also.
   
  The only other desktop amp I have under 500 is the headroom micro, and the M stage is better, IMO of course.
   
  Chris.......I covered my vents and the bass got boomy.....yuck


----------



## Chris J

the search never ends said:


> Anyone with an M stage that doesn't own the x701 akg's seems like it's the overwhelming majority. I was very pleasantly surprised at how it matches up with the HD650 as well. Which led me to purchasing a second one, coolest thing about the 650 is changing amps is kin to changing cans, sources also.
> 
> The only other desktop amp I have under 500 is the headroom micro, and the M stage is better, IMO of course.
> 
> Chris.......I covered my vents and the bass got boomy.....yuck




Hmmmmmm.......somebody insert a joke about the vents on the new M Stage are actually tuned ports to increase bass efficiency and extend bass bandwidth!
Does this mean my old M Stage is an acoustic suspension design?


----------



## WestLander

Quote: 





the search never ends said:


> Anyone with an M stage that doesn't own the x701 akg's seems like it's the overwhelming majority. I was very pleasantly surprised at how it matches up with the HD650 as well. Which led me to purchasing a second one, coolest thing about the 650 is changing amps is kin to changing cans, sources also.


 
   
  I use my M-Stage to power the AT W1000X, a modded T50RP, and the classic AKG K500. After shuffling through a number of opamps, I finally settled on the Audio-GD OPA Sun and haven't looked back.


----------



## musicbased

oh and EinZweiDrei, i know it was me that asked you what variations you were hearing, and i was very interested to read your response.
  However, while i don't doubt you are hearing these variations, tbh, i haven't got a clue what the reason might be.
  Somethings not right obviously, but i guess you will have to swap out the different parts of the system somehow and narrow down the culprit!
  Good luck,and please let us know if you ever work out the cause!


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





einzweidrei said:


> -one of the variations made my k701s sound like the best i've heard in headphones making me question if they're really headphones.
> vocals sounded smooth and warm and meaty. highs are smooth and a bit of sparky. bass was deep and smooth. sibilance was there but it didnt bothered me or sometimes it felt like it was suppose to be there and sometimes its enjoyable.
> -another variation only sounds like a more meaty ad700.
> -one variation which is extremely rare, bass is not bloated but i actually felt it rumble on my head. its not clipping or distortion.
> ...


 
   
  Is this ONLY with the Q701?
  Or any phones
  Just a guess; a bad, intermittant connection somewhere?
  Bad cable? Dirty jack?
  A noisy potentiometer somewhere?  Rotate the pots a few times.
  Try moving the gain settings around on your M Stage, the little switches could be dirty. You can set it back to 10 dB, just make sure you move the switches around.


----------



## EinZweiDrei

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Is this ONLY with the Q701?
> Or any phones
> Just a guess; a bad, intermittant connection somewhere?
> Bad cable? Dirty jack?
> ...


 
  hopefully some of these would solve my setup's issue.
 i'll have to bring my whole setup over to a friend's place, he has some decent gear to test them on.
 hopefully i can bring my k701 to sing properly like one of the variations. most of the time it cries, wails, punches, and throws kicks at me like an annoying little sister.


----------



## the search never ends

One of the fastest ways to upgrade all your gear, book a room at a holiday inn express, take all your gear with you..........after one night, you and your gear will have all improved.  On a more serious note, I have no problems with my k701's with any amp, although I do unplug all cans before power cycling.


----------



## draven5494

Has anyone used their Q701s with the ODAC connected to the m-stage?  I just hooked up my ODAC today and I am noticing a marked drop in bass quantity compared the DAC in my Auzentech Forte soundcard.
   
  I really do like the detail of the ODAC and would love to keep it if I can get the bass boosted a bit.  I am running stock opamps, so if there are some opamps out there that can boost the bass I am all for trying that.
   
  What do you guys recommend I do to get a little more bass with this setup?


----------



## purrin

The Auzentech is a warm sounding laid-back unit (I used to own one) compared to many other DACs. The ODAC is on the lean side (comparable to Benchmark DAC1). Try LM4562, it's less strident and more laid back than the stock OPA2132. Biased into class A, the LM4562 gets slightly warm sounding. You can also try OPA2604 or JRC/NJM4556.
   
  You can always EQ.


----------



## draven5494

purrin said:


> The Auzentech is a warm sounding laid-back unit (I used to own one) compared to many other DACs. The ODAC is on the lean side (comparable to Benchmark DAC1). Try LM4562, it's less strident and more laid back than the stock OPA2132. Biased into class A, the LM4562 gets slightly warm sounding. You can also try OPA2604 or JRC/NJM4556.
> 
> You can always EQ.




Thanks for the info Purrin. I definitely agree that the ODAC is leaner than my Forte. It also has superior detail and separation. I probably should have kept my HRT MSII. It is also has fantastic detail without sacrificing bass. I did have issues with static and popping while using WASAPI with that though. 

This hobby... It can be frustrating. 

Oh well, such is the life of a headphone junkie.


----------



## Chris J

draven5494 said:


> Has anyone used their Q701s with the ODAC connected to the m-stage?  I just hooked up my ODAC today and I am noticing a marked drop in bass quantity compared the DAC in my Auzentech Forte soundcard.
> 
> I really do like the detail of the ODAC and would love to keep it if I can get the bass boosted a bit.  I am running stock opamps, so if there are some opamps out there that can boost the bass I am all for trying that.
> 
> What do you guys recommend I do to get a little more bass with this setup?




Changing the Op Amps won't boost the bass.


----------



## geetarman49

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Changing the Op Amps won't boost the bass.


 

 that depends on the cct and opamps in question. replacing the smd opamps from the i/v and hp stage of my matrix cube (early issue) completely revived this puppy for me. now, listening with hfi-780 and modded t50rp, there is very palpable 20hz performance & impacting bass, amongst other 'things'.


----------



## jcx

before and after frequency response plots, files? - even cheap or onboard soundcards are repeatable enough to reslove audio frequency response a few orders of magnitude below DBT audibility thresholds of ~ 0.1 dB
   
  the math/engineering/pschoacoustics numbers really don't support the idea of "good", appropriate for "audio" op amps applied within their limits having subjectively significant difference in 20 Hz-20 kHz frequency response in low gain circuits like this
   
  there actually is a Science to listening tests - requires level matching, Blinding


----------



## purrin

Maybe it's best we keep FR measurements and discussions DBT regarding opamps in the sound science forum. These types of topics usually result in endless meaningless circular discussions with extremists from the subjective and objective camps flinging turd all over the walls of the forum.


----------



## geetarman49

indeed!  ... but i do stand by my assessment as to the difference switching opamps made to the  _my ipo _matrix cube.


----------



## jcx

If I said "I don't hear that mod that way" - purely subjective, unsupported opinion it would be fine?
   
  but mentioning engineering, psychoacoustics - things the designers of the equipment may have taken into account I'm suddenly off topic, inviting flame wars???
   
  Frequency response audibility is fair game in any forum where someone claims ~ "I heard more bass/forward mids/too bright..." from X gear under Y conditions...
   
  only "debating"/flaming over DBT validity is restricted to the Sound Science Forum - and most of that in my experience is "blaming the victim" - mature individuals can skip over anything that doesn't interest them
   
  but censoring the fact that there are results from perceptual psychology, or that some numbers in audio do mean some distinctions can be drawn even if "numbers aren't everything" is a disservice to newcomers
   
  educating people on valid listening, known interfering mechanisms should be in the serious "Subjectivist's" interest - keeping echo chamber/fanboy/wannabe glossy magazine reviewer post noise down


----------



## geetarman49

Quote: 





jcx said:


> If I said "I don't hear that mod that way" - purely subjective, unsupported opinion it would be fine?
> 
> ...


 
  yes, it would be fine ... one doesn't need to delve very deep into the pages of this site to see the range of opinion on hd650, k701/702, t1, ultrasone xxx, rpt-hf600, etc.  & it goes wrt modding too.
   
  but we are taking this thread on _the yellow brick road_  (& there are a range of opinions about that movie too ... all subjective & it's okay).


----------



## purrin

I don't know if anyone has noticed, but I rather like measurements myself. I've also performed enough measurements to know that not everything can be explained by them, and that newer more advanced techniques may be required to measure phenomena not previously measurable.
   
  It would be nice for me, once a while, to suggest an op-amp or two, or the class A mod, for others to consider without someone on the fringes of the objectivist religion always there to scream "snake oil", "placebo", "disservice", "perceptual psychology", etc. (This is not the first time it's happened to me in this thread.)
   
  The cost to the owner to try out a few op-amps would be a few dollars, maybe twenty at most. This is hardly the domain of "fanboy" or "wannabe glossy magazine reviewer". Besides, a large portion of this thread has already been dedicated to op-amp rolling, the class A modification, and other modifications which I posted about a year ago.
   
  Op-amps do measure differently on the bench in terms of current, distortion, noise, voltage swing, slew rate, bandwidth, stability, PSRR, CMRR, etc. I also find them to sound different, despite all of them having perfect frequency response. This I speak from personal experience building simple amps and messing with stuff, not conjecture.
   
  To each his own.


----------



## Currawong




----------



## rhythmdevils

Love the picture Currawong! 
   
  I have nothing meaningful to add to this discussion.


----------



## dogwan

Quote: 





currawong said:


>


 
   
  I just got chills.....why?
   
  Ohhhhhh!


----------



## geetarman49

Quote: 





purrin said:


> I don't know if anyone has noticed, but I rather like measurements myself. I've also performed enough measurements to know that not everything can be explained by them, and that newer more advanced techniques may be required to measure phenomena not previously measurable.  _agree, measurements can be very helpful_
> 
> It would be nice for me, once a while, to suggest an op-amp or two, or the class A mod, for others to consider without someone on the fringes of the objectivist religion always there to scream "snake oil", "placebo", "disservice", "perceptual psychology", etc. (This is not the first time it's happened to me in this thread.)  _agree_
> 
> ...


----------



## Chris J

purrin said:


> I don't know if anyone has noticed, but I rather like measurements myself. I've also performed enough measurements to know that not everything can be explained by them, and that newer more advanced techniques may be required to measure phenomena not previously measurable.
> 
> It would be nice for me, once a while, to suggest an op-amp or two, or the class A mod, for others to consider without someone on the fringes of the objectivist religion always there to scream "snake oil", "placebo", "disservice", "perceptual psychology", etc. (This is not the first time it's happened to me in this thread.)
> 
> ...




My thoughts on your first paragraph:
 "we don't know what we don't know"

As far as I'm concerned, changing the Op Amp in the M is a worthwhile endeavour.
Just don't expect a miracle, the M will still sound like an M Stage.

But you raise a few good points:
 for a few dollars why not roll in different Op Amps? Have some FUN!


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Changing the Op Amps won't boost the bass.


 
   
  If you add AD797BR chips soldered to single DIP adapters then inserted to a socketed 2x1 DIP adapter, you'll get a LPF in the feedback and get a little more bass, LOL!
  At the cost of additional degradation of sound quality.  =\


----------



## purrin

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Just don't expect a miracle, the M will still sound like an M Stage.


 
   
  Oh no. Definitely not. But in the context of the OP's question where he changed his DAC from the Auzentech to the ODAC (known quantities to me), an op-amp swap in the Matrix could just be the ticket to warm up the ODAC's leaner presentation.


----------



## zcg0201213

MATRIX new products, looks good
http://www.matrix-digi.com/cpshow.asp?pid=36
http://www.matrix-digi.com/cpshow.asp?pid=37


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





zcg0201213 said:


> MATRIX new products, looks good
> http://www.matrix-digi.com/cpshow.asp?pid=36
> http://www.matrix-digi.com/cpshow.asp?pid=37


 
   
  Interesting.  No Analog inputs on the M-stage DAC box thing though.  I guess it's just a huge DAC?..
   
   
  Quote: 





> MATRIX M-STAGE DAC is designed for the audio decoder with M-STAGE AMP headphone amplifier design.  Top PCM1792 D / A conversion unit can support the highest 24Bit/192kHz digital audio signal playback, sophisticated design, the M-STAGE DAC has the following features:
> 
> • professional digital receiver chips with ultra-low-Wow and flutter and independent clock.
> • fiber optic, coaxial, USB variety of digital signal input mode.
> ...


----------



## derbigpr

Quote: 





zcg0201213 said:


> MATRIX new products, looks good
> http://www.matrix-digi.com/cpshow.asp?pid=36
> http://www.matrix-digi.com/cpshow.asp?pid=37


 
   
   
  Sweet. Hope the price of that DAC will be the same as the amp.


----------



## GaToMaLaCo

Around 240 dollars for the M-Stage DAC


----------



## WestLander

Very interesting...I wonder what the portable amp/dac will retail for? I like that the full-size DAC is stackable, and it looks to me, from the pics, that opamps are socketed and can be rolled...


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





zcg0201213 said:


> MATRIX new products, looks good
> http://www.matrix-digi.com/cpshow.asp?pid=36
> http://www.matrix-digi.com/cpshow.asp?pid=37


 
   
  An AKM receiver in the DAC?
   
  That portable looks frickin' sweet.  They should have made the mini jacks flush with the casing.


----------



## zcg0201213

*Yes, it used AKM4113 receiver
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


*


----------



## EinZweiDrei

i never heard any tube amps before but is it just me or does m stage sound a little like this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7qMVYf85sM


----------



## putente

Nice looking thing, that new M-Stage DAC! It pairs very well with the amp! Let's hope it has the same price/performance ratio as the amp...


----------



## putente

Quote: 





zcg0201213 said:


> MATRIX new products, looks good
> http://www.matrix-digi.com/cpshow.asp?pid=36
> http://www.matrix-digi.com/cpshow.asp?pid=37


 
   
   


zcg0201213 said:


> *Yes, it used AKM4113 receiver
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  Are you "related" in any way to Matrix?


----------



## Chris J

Having owned a pile of tube amps thru the years, I don't think the M Stage sounds very tube like.
   
  Tube amps often have a trace of fat, lushness and a touch of soft, fat bass.
  The mids often sound lush, the treble can be a bit sparkly.
   
  Just my opinion, based on my experience.....


----------



## the search never ends

I have an otl, have heard many, and own a few hybrids.  Listening to my 990's through my Woo 2 and the M Stage is a very different experience.


----------



## Chris J

Very true, my M Stage sounds quite different than my La Figaro 336C, even when I use high impedance 'phones.
  So it ain't just the output impedance


----------



## wilky61

So after waiting for two months for the adapter for my 2x OPA602BP opamps to arrive in the mail from China, I insert it into the opamp slot today only to find out it doesn't work. Mad Max told me in PM to make sure that the "semicircular grooves" on both of the OPA602BP were facing the same direction, so I did this. If I place the opamps+adapter into the socket with both semicircular grooves facing those 2 little green things inside the M-Stage, then I will just barely be able to hear what sounds like the 8-bit equivalent of whatever song I'm listening to. If I place the opamps+adapter into the socket with both semicircular grooves facing away from those 2 little green things, then all I hear is hiss EXCEPT for when I turn off the M-Stage; then for about a half-second I will actually hear the song that I'm playing but it fades as the power fades.
   
  Uhhhhh, help?!?!? Are my OPA602BP bad? I have no clue what to do.
   
   
*UPDATE: *Sent Mad Max a PM and he very promptly was able to help me fix my problem (thank you so much for all of your help MM!!!). I don't think I studied the adapter closely enough when I received it because I had not noticed that the adapter designates the correct orientation for the opamps... I musta had it switched around backwards.


----------



## Guess?

Just to add something to the discussion - after the cap shunting on the input, I changed the a-class biased LME49710 with a-class OPA627BP, because of the lack of warmth after the caps mod. The 627BP made the sound very pleasant to my (and others) ears, before the caps mod I preferred the 49710s. The amp runs hotter though, even with the side vents. Listening that way for several months now, I'm really pleased with the sound. Cheers, guys!


----------



## GaToMaLaCo

Quote: 





guess? said:


> Just to add something to the discussion - after the cap shunting on the input, I changed the a-class biased LME49710 with a-class OPA627BP, because of the lack of warmth after the caps mod. The 627BP made the sound very pleasant to my (and others) ears, before the caps mod I preferred the 49710s. The amp runs hotter though, even with the side vents. Listening that way for several months now, I'm really pleased with the sound. Cheers, guys!


 
  Almost same here, just without the caps mod, I keept the OPA627BP... seems this is the natural OPAMP match for this amplifier. Now i'm experimenting with the AD823AN in the USB DAC output.


----------



## tolame4aname

Just wondering if anyone can share their thoughts on some issues i'm having....
   
  I have the auzentech x-meridian 2g soundcard and have been having issues with it. I have been unable to get the included ASIO, or asio4all to work for more than a song or two no matter the settings (musicbee & foobar), and the card drivers are giving me regular bsod's. For a long time i have dealt with it assuming ram, overclock, or setup prob, but spent the last few days stress testing and learning how to read blue screens etc and finally can conclude it is the soundcard drivers causing the problems. Auzentech hasnt released any new drivers for this card since this time last year. 
   
  I have just now finished a reformat and re-install, and unfortunately same issue. Cant find anything online of others having this issue though so not entirely sure where to turn. 
   
  I about to try the onboard s/pdif but read this is usually a no-go and you know, with a rega dac, m-stage and k702's here, would be nice to be getting the best from it. + onboard doesnt support ASIO unless i'm missing something... 
   
  I have emailed Auzentech but am assuming this is going to end in a biting the bullet and getting a new soundcard so was wondering what you guys are all using and what you would recommend? 
   
  Its purely for music. Yes i game and watch movies, but music is 100% priority. Budget isnt really a concern within reason... I would be happy to pay around the price of the cans to get it solid and as future proof as possible. 
   
   
  Thanks for any help


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





guess? said:


> Just to add something to the discussion - after the cap shunting on the input, I changed the a-class biased LME49710 with a-class OPA627BP, because of the lack of warmth after the caps mod. The 627BP made the sound very pleasant to my (and others) ears, before the caps mod I preferred the 49710s. The amp runs hotter though, even with the side vents. Listening that way for several months now, I'm really pleased with the sound. Cheers, guys!


 
   
  The amp will not run hotter or colder if you swap Op Amps.
   
  The heat comes from the discrete output stage and the power supply, and the power supply runs hot because the discrete output stage draws a lot of current.


----------



## geetarman49

Quote: 





tolame4aname said:


> Just wondering if anyone can share their thoughts on some issues i'm having....
> 
> I have the auzentech x-meridian 2g soundcard and have been having issues with it. I have been unable to get the included ASIO, or asio4all to work for more than a song or two no matter the settings (musicbee & foobar), and the card drivers are giving me regular bsod's. For a long time i have dealt with it assuming ram, overclock, or setup prob, but spent the last few days stress testing and learning how to read blue screens etc and finally can conclude it is the soundcard drivers causing the problems. Auzentech hasnt released any new drivers for this card since this time last year.
> 
> ...


 
  your rega dac has an isolated usb input - why not skip the auzentech completely (remove it) and go computer usb direct to rega?  if you still find that lacking, there's always various usb to s/pdif dongles like the jk hiface or halide bridge that you can try.
   
  hth,


----------



## tolame4aname

Yeah that's something I had forgotten about and a good idea thanks. But fingers crossed after a night of reading and hair pulling i may have solved it. Figured its me/my system as i'm struggling to find anyone else with the issue. 
   
  I installed the drivers shortly after the windows install and i'm guessing either windows updates or another driver or program install messed something up. 
   
  I did some reg cleaning and removed/reinstalled the meridian drivers, and other audio related drivers (tv card gpu) and am now onto a record 5th song in a row in ASIO. Fingers crossed it really was something so simple. Damn computers! 
   
  Now as long as it doesn't die the second i click on 'submit' i'm good...


----------



## geetarman49

well, good luck & happy listening.


----------



## Mikesin

Geez, The MATRIX Mini-Portable DAC costs alot , $349.99? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MATRIX-Mini-Portable-DAC-24bit-192KHz-Portable-Amplifier-Decoder-AMP-DAC-NEW-/110920167703?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19d35b7117
  
  Where as the MATRIX MSTAGE DAC costs far less at $289.99, http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Matrix-M-stage-Decoder-PCM1792-Audio-DAC-NEW-Version-Decoder-/110937042130?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19d45cecd2
   
  Whats better the Matrix MSTAGE DAC or the Matrix Mini-I ? As I have always considered using the MINI-I as a DAC but seeing as they made a MSTAGE DAC now, that could be an option in the future..


----------



## Mad Max

I would love to try that portable.  Almost as low profile as my pimped out Minibox-E+, it appears.  The M-Stage DAC is a pure DAC, so it might be a little better.


----------



## CAfromCA

I did get mine from Tam Audio via Amazon and it does have the vents. I works very well with the AKG701s although I will have to say not so well with the Sennheisers. Apparently its all about impedance. I am very satisfied with my purchase.


----------



## CAfromCA




----------



## GaToMaLaCo

Quote: 





cafromca said:


> I did get mine from Tam Audio via Amazon and it does have the vents. I works very well with the AKG701s although I will have to say not so well with the Sennheisers. Apparently its all about impedance. I am very satisfied with my purchase.


 
  What is the OPAMP that came with your m-stage? 2134 or the some of the class A biased opamps 627 or 637?


----------



## CAfromCA

Whoa! Newbie alert!


----------



## GaToMaLaCo

Quote: 





cafromca said:


> Whoa! Newbie alert!


 
  lol
   
   
  Try using OPA602 with your Senns... They will be more enjoyable ;D


----------



## Mad Max

This looks like it could be based on the BCL/M-Stage design.


----------



## GaToMaLaCo

Quote: 





mad max said:


> This looks like it could be based on the BCL/M-Stage design.


 
  Indeed, they use SMD opamp wich is a downside.
   
  I bet they put a smd OPA2604 on the 701 flavored amp. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  PS: search for "purepiper" on ebay to see the other models.


----------



## Mad Max

But it is an upside that they used SMD components around the opamp.


----------



## JosephsART

Quote: 





mikesin said:


> Geez, The MATRIX Mini-Portable DAC costs alot , $349.99? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MATRIX-Mini-Portable-DAC-24bit-192KHz-Portable-Amplifier-Decoder-AMP-DAC-NEW-/110920167703?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19d35b7117
> 
> Where as the MATRIX MSTAGE DAC costs far less at $289.99, http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Matrix-M-stage-Decoder-PCM1792-Audio-DAC-NEW-Version-Decoder-/110937042130?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19d45cecd2
> 
> Whats better the Matrix MSTAGE DAC or the Matrix Mini-I ? As I have always considered using the MINI-I as a DAC but seeing as they made a MSTAGE DAC now, that could be an option in the future..


 
   
  I put in my impressions on the M-Stage DAC on this post.
   
  I'm kinda new at this, but I hope it helps!


----------



## sygyzy

I am looking to purchase a M-Stage, probably used. Can anyone tell me how I can identify the latest version/revision? I don't want to get an outdated version.
   
  Thanks.


----------



## tolame4aname

Quote: 





sygyzy said:


> I am looking to purchase a M-Stage, probably used. Can anyone tell me how I can identify the latest version/revision? I don't want to get an outdated version.
> 
> Thanks.


 
  Look for side vents. Old version doesn't have em.
   
  Although they seem to be reviewing the new version here, they have a pic of the old version with no side vents. http://www.headfonia.com/matrix-m-stage/


----------



## sygyzy

Wow thanks for the feedback but I am confused. Even Coolfungadget (Tam Audio), is selling the version without vents. As far as I know, Tam is the "official" or main distributor. Why is the Headfishop the only people with the new version? Is it just a cosmetic change? My main concern is I want the latest hardware and along with it any fixes or tweaks that were done to improve it. In short - I want the most up to date/latest version.
   
  Do you happen to know what the actual latest revision is? Is it v2.1? I think I saw some pictures of the version number silkscreened onto the PCB. That way I can ask a seller to check.


----------



## tolame4aname

Here is where i got mine in May
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/330454610560#ht_6491wt_897
   
  They also picture the old version but the one i have beside me def has air vents lol. And they list the technical changes in the specs too.
   
  I assume most retailers didn't bother updating a pic. You could always call/email to double check but i very much doubt Tam would be selling or can even get an old version.
   
  Even if you were looking for it i would assume the old version would be getting hard to find nearly anywhere new. 
   
  Can't open mine right now, but i assume from this ebay listing, you are right and current version is 2.1
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Matrix-m-stage-Headphone-Amplifier-Amp-class-2011-new-/140587163079#ht_3039wt_648


----------



## sygyzy

Thanks for your help. The problem with looking at feature lists is they aren't helpful if you don't know what the older version has, you have nothing to compare it to.

 So yes, I see listings that say "New Interference Reduction" and I don't know if it's new from 1.0 to 2.0 or 2.0 to 2.1 etc. I also have no idea what "interference reduction" _looks like_ if I were to inspect an amp. Hopefully, I end up with a newer version.


----------



## tolame4aname

No problem.
   
  I'm 99% sure the latest version is the only one with side vents, but you better wait for one of the masters of the mstage to confirm that. I'm sure it was actually said in this thread already somewhere in the 204 pages.
  I'm not searching lol, but if you use the 'search this thread' and type v2.1 side vents or something you might be lucky 
   
  Edit: Well i found it anyways, post 2930 onwards on page 196..... 
   
  So if it has vents, you have the latest


----------



## Mikesin

You do realise that that article was written in _'August 21, 2010' _ right? He was reviewing the version that was the latest out at the point of time. The vented one has only recently been released. The current version I think only updated the outer casing (vents) because of the heat the M-Stage produces, i've only read up a little about it but thats just my input. (Also my version before the current is completely fine without vents?)
  Quote: 





tolame4aname said:


> Look for side vents. Old version doesn't have em.
> 
> Although they seem to be reviewing the new version here, they have a pic of the old version with no side vents. http://www.headfonia.com/matrix-m-stage/


----------



## HamilcarBarca

Is Tam Audio still in business?
   
  I was nearly ready to buy an M-Stage, but now their eBay store and web site say they're "reorganizing" and will be back on 24 August (i.e., yesterday). While the amp isn't that expensive, I'd want a major discount before I'd buy if they're actually kaput.
   
  Finally, what's the relationship between Tam and matrixelectronics.net? Matrix Electronics' web site claims they have 768 in stock.


----------



## tolame4aname

Quote: 





mikesin said:


> You do realise that that article was written in _'August 21, 2010' _ right? He was reviewing the version that was the latest out at the point of time. The vented one has only recently been released. The current version I think only updated the outer casing (vents) because of the heat the M-Stage produces, i've only read up a little about it but thats just my input. (Also my version before the current is completely fine without vents?)


 
  Yeah I do now. As you may have gathered from the evolution of the conversation I was learning too. Not that it mattered at all (except to you) or was worth editing as it was the pic without side vents I was trying to show 
  Was just tryna help with the info i had and I was pretty sure only the very latest had the side vents. This was my first amp and that what i was told to look for too, just wanted to be sure it was also what was said here before passing it on. Not very often i know enough to give back to these forums so jumped at the chance to be able to help some else


----------



## RushNerd

I would really like to know if anyone can compare the Schiit Asgard to the Matrix with Denon X000 phones. I think I saw one person who had the d7000's and posted impressions with both the Asgard and Matrix here and they said they just returned the Asgard.
   
  I get the feeling they are both two different things, but Denon's are picky and the amp has to be just right. Plus it bothers me the Matrix is huge, heavy, and has seemingly more pieces to it than the Asgard. Already have the Asgard shipping here, i'm just very curious.


----------



## CAfromCA

Tam Audio is on Amazon.


----------



## Guess?

Quote: 





sygyzy said:


> Thanks for your help. The problem with looking at feature lists is they aren't helpful if you don't know what the older version has, you have nothing to compare it to.
> 
> So yes, I see listings that say "New Interference Reduction" and I don't know if it's new from 1.0 to 2.0 or 2.0 to 2.1 etc. I also have no idea what "interference reduction" _looks like_ if I were to inspect an amp. Hopefully, I end up with a newer version.


 
  Usb version, bought in January:


----------



## HamilcarBarca

Quote: 





cafromca said:


> Tam Audio is on Amazon.


 
   
  The "Tam Audio" web site came out of maintenance mode in the last day or so, featuring lots of life-saving equipment.
   
  Sorry, Mr Wallet.


----------



## sygyzy

Sure enough, even on Tam's site the standard (not USB, no opamp mod) version shows no side vents. I wish he would get his act together. I can't tell if I am buying a new version or not.


----------



## skyline315

Quote: 





sygyzy said:


> Sure enough, even on Tam's site the standard (not USB, no opamp mod) version shows no side vents. I wish he would get his act together. I can't tell if I am buying a new version or not.


 
   
  Have you tried e-mailing him?
   
  The first thing listed under the features is "latest version".


----------



## HamilcarBarca

Quote: 





sygyzy said:


> Sure enough, even on Tam's site the standard (not USB, no opamp mod) version shows no side vents. I wish he would get his act together. I can't tell if I am buying a new version or not.


 
   
Although the pages at Tam Audio seem to describe the new version, I think those photos are the manufacturer's stock images: http://www.matrix-digi.com/english/cpshow.asp?pid=7 Images show vents. I don't know what I was thinking.
   
  I think Tam would be better served by using up-to-date photos (if the problem is just out-of-date photos.)


----------



## sygyzy

I did try emailing him and am waiting for a reply. I was just hoping someone could put things to rest for me. I know I have been beating this issue but for over $250 and shipping from China, I am not looking forward to having to deal with any sort of return/exchange issues.


----------



## stephenbou

Quote: 





hamilcarbarca said:


> Is Tam Audio still in business?
> 
> I was nearly ready to buy an M-Stage, but now their eBay store and web site say they're "reorganizing" and will be back on 24 August (i.e., yesterday). While the amp isn't that expensive, I'd want a major discount before I'd buy if they're actually kaput.
> 
> Finally, what's the relationship between Tam and matrixelectronics.net? Matrix Electronics' web site claims they have 768 in stock.


 
   
  I have an order with him waiting for fulfillment. He emailed me saying he was on vacation until about today. So I'm keeping my fingers crossed for quick shipping.


----------



## HamilcarBarca

Quote: 





stephenbou said:


> I have an order with him waiting for fulfillment. He emailed me saying he was on vacation until about today. So I'm keeping my fingers crossed for quick shipping.


 
   
  The site came back Saturday or Sunday. I ordered a dual-analog (i.e., non-USB) M-Stage last night. Plus the Burr Brown OPA627AP with Class A Biasing Mod. Plus the NS LM4562NA.
   
  I'm already impatient.


----------



## sygyzy

Quote: 





hamilcarbarca said:


> The site came back Saturday or Sunday. I ordered a dual-analog (i.e., non-USB) M-Stage last night. Plus the Burr Brown OPA627AP with Class A Biasing Mod. Plus the NS LM4562NA.
> 
> I'm already impatient.


 
   
  I'm sorry, but what is a dual analog M-Stage? Do you mean the standard M-Stage? What is "dual" about it?


----------



## Guess?

It has two rca inputs instead of one rca and one usb on the usb version.
  Quote: 





sygyzy said:


> I'm sorry, but what is a dual analog M-Stage? Do you mean the standard M-Stage? What is "dual" about it?


----------



## HamilcarBarca

Quote: 





guess? said:


> It has two rca inputs instead of one rca and one usb on the usb version.


 
   
  Exactly. It has dual analog inputs through two pairs of RCA jacks.


----------



## JosephsART

Quote: 





guess? said:


> It has two rca inputs instead of one rca and one usb on the usb version.


 
   
  I sold my USB M-Stage after I bought the M-Stage DAC. Now I have the analog M-Stage paired with the DAC.
   
  Now my combined inputs are (3 digital on the DAC) Coaxial, Optical, USB and (1 extra out of 2 analogs on the amp) RCA.
   
  If I used the DAC with the USB M-Stage I'd only have digital inputs available (DAC interconnects with the only available analog input).
   
  So if you don't intend on buying a dedicated DAC, then the M-Stage with USB can be a handy and simple solution.
   
  Otherwise, find your own uDAC and give yourself an extra analog input.


----------



## JosephsART

Quote: 





hamilcarbarca said:


> The site came back Saturday or Sunday. I ordered a dual-analog (i.e., non-USB) M-Stage last night. Plus the Burr Brown OPA627AP with Class A Biasing Mod. Plus the NS LM4562NA.
> 
> I'm already impatient.


 
   
  Don't get shocked if your packaging isn't marvellous!
   
  The first item I received took 2 weeks (to Australia) from Tam Audio, being the M-Stage DAC, he had taped the shipping slip to the original box and shipped it like that! I ended up with the original box bashed in and covered in tape and shipping stickers. I'm surprised the DAC came unharmed.
   
  Now after 4 weeks, I've received my OPA627AP's from Tam audio, and this time the item was pinned into a single piece of styrophome with the exposed op-amp's being covered with a single piece of packing tape, and put inside a standard envelope. Again somewhat shocked the item was damaged in some way. A little bit of bubble wrap and an extra piece of styrophome could've gone a long way. I've pulled the tape off the op-amps, having to remove the adhesive residue the tape had left there.
   
  Honestly, I wouldn't say that Tam is the cheapest seller for these Chinese products. He should probably pick up the slack at these prices in my opinion.


----------



## HamilcarBarca

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *josephsart* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> So if you don't intend on buying a dedicated DAC, then the M-Stage with USB can be a handy and simple solution.
> 
> Otherwise, find your own uDAC and give yourself an extra analog input.


 
   
  I want a dedicated analog input for my BD player. Having two analog inputs will allow me to connect my laptop, immediately, while I spend another month or two reading DAC reviews. I couldn't find any other amp like that for under US$100 -- my original price limit -- or under $200. When I started looking at $300 amps, the M-Stage had all that and more.
   
  However, I only have one good pair of headphones and I _need_ another for the office. This time, I'm working my way downward, not upward, in price. I ruled out the Sennheiser HD 800 last week. It's more than I can bring myself to spend.
   
  Darned audio equipment! It brainwashes me while I sleep and then empties my wallet for me.


----------



## HamilcarBarca

After reading every review I could find (and reading this thread from start to finish twice), this is why I ordered the M-Stage amp without hearing it.
   
  It had design features I really want.
   

 Metal (not plastic) case
 No batteries
 Inputs on the rear panel (not the front panel)
 Headphone output on the front panel (not the rear panel)
 Controls on the front panel (not the top panel)
 Dual analog inputs selectable from the front panel
 Selectable gain
   
  It includes these nice-to-have features.
   

 Op-amp installed in a DIP socket(!)
 1/4" headphone jack
 Internal power supply (no wall-wart)
 Line-out (on the rear panel)
 Available in black (or silver)
   
  It has these negatives which weren't enough to keep me from ordering.
   

 Vendor in China
 5-Ohm output impedance
 11" deep
   
  All that's left is to listen to it.


----------



## RushNerd

Quote: 





hamilcarbarca said:


> 5-Ohm output impedance


 
  Doesn't that mean that it wouldn't pair well with Denon cans? I believe they need 1 or less if i'm not mistaken.


----------



## HamilcarBarca

Quote: 





rushnerd said:


> Doesn't that mean that it wouldn't pair well with Denon cans? I believe they need 1 or less if i'm not mistaken.


 
   
  I've read multiple times, but can't verify personally from theory or practice, that the ideal output impedance of an amp is 1/10 or less of the input impedance of the headphone.
   
*Edit:* I just read another technical discussion of headphone amps. Some few engineering details with which I'm familiar were correct. He (or she) says the guideline is 1/8 (not 1/10) and this guideline becomes less important as the ability of the amp to deliver clean power at higher volumes increases.
   
  There's a lot of uninformed regurgitation of engineering terms among some 'audiophiles'. I have 10 hours of (undergraduate) EE, which is enough to recognize some obvious nonsense, but I'll _never_ be an engineer. However, some people are convinced of the 1/10 guideline, so I wrote that a 5-Ohm output impedance is a negative. It might have been better to say "possible negative".
   
  Until I buy another set, I'll be using the M-Stage with 32-Ohm headphones. Maybe I'll be disappointed.


----------



## Mad Max

The M-Stage is anything but a disappointment with 32-ohm Grados, awww yeah!


----------



## HamilcarBarca

Quote: 





mad max said:


> The M-Stage is anything but a disappoint with 32-ohm Grados, awww yeah!


 
   
  Glad to hear it!


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





hamilcarbarca said:


> I've read multiple times, but can't verify personally from theory or practice, that the ideal output impedance of an amp is 1/10 or less of the input impedance of the headphone.
> 
> *Edit:* I just read another technical discussion of headphone amps. Some few engineering details with which I'm familiar were correct. He (or she) says the guideline is 1/8 (not 1/10) and this guideline becomes less important as the ability of the amp to deliver clean power at higher volumes increases.
> 
> There's a lot of uninformed regurgitation of engineering terms among some 'audiophiles'. I have 10 hours of (undergraduate) EE, which is enough to recognize some obvious nonsense, but I'll _never_ be an engineer. However, some people are convinced of the 1/10 guideline, so I wrote that a 5-Ohm output impedance is a negative. It might have been better to say "possible negative".


 
   
  The general guideline is and output impedance of 1/8 (or 1/10) OR LESS.
  A headphone amp is typically a voltage source, an ideal voltage source will have zero output impedance.
  In practice depends on how inductively and/or capacitive reactive the headphone is, and subjectively, what sound do you like.
  Other people will claim that some headphones are designed to work with high output impedances, for example, some of the Beyers.


----------



## JosephsART

hamilcarbarca said:


> I've read multiple times, but can't verify personally from theory or practice, that the ideal output impedance of an amp is 1/10 or less of the input impedance of the headphone.


 


chris j said:


> The general guideline is and output impedance of 1/8 (or 1/10) OR LESS.


 
   
  The way I read this; the output of your amplifier should be 1/8, 1/10, 1/20+ that of your headphone. Your headphone impedance should not be less than a minimum of 8 times your amplifier impedance.
   
  This is known as the damping factor?
   
  If the amplifier output impedance is lower than 8 times your headphone impedance, your amplifier fails to control movement in your sensitive headphones.
   
  So if the Matrix M-Stage outputs 5ohms, the minimum impedance your headphones should have are 40ohms. Preferably, 50ohms or higher (like most headphones which aren't designed to be portable).
   
  I'd imagine amplifiers which amplify at exceptional voltage have difficulty managing their output impedance; so technically, a quality amplifier with 0 output impedance is highly desirable if you wish to amplify any kind of headphone. Ideally, an amplifier output of 4ohms or less for 32ohm headphones.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





josephsart said:


> The way I read this; the output of your amplifier should be 1/8, 1/10, 1/20+ that of your headphone. Your headphone impedance should not be less than a minimum of 8 times your amplifier impedance.
> 
> This is known as the damping factor?
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  Yes, lower output impedance gives you a higher damping factor.
   
  The vintage receiver guys will go nuts over this, typically a vintage receiver drives the headphone jack off the power amp output, but the receiver manufacturers put a 100 to 330 Ohm resistor in series, so the output impedance of the headphone jack is actually 100 to 330 Ohms and the damping factor, well, it kinda sucks!  But the vintage receiver guys love their vintage receivers.....
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  If a Grado owner says the Grado headphones work fine with a Matrix M, then I will go with what he says.
  The output impedance is not terrible for a Grado, it may actually make the Grado 'phone sound fuller.
  1/8 or 1/10 is only a guideline.
   
  Not too sure what your last paragraph means: 
  But I woulld basically agree, the lower the output impedance, the better.
  A power amplifier for driving speakers will have an output impedance in the range of 0.5 Ohms to 0.05 Ohms or even less, and those power amps may output 20 or 30 or 40 or more Volts.
  Output impedance is a function of the characteristics of the output transistors and how much feedback the amp uses.


----------



## geetarman49

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Yes, lower output impedance gives you a higher damping factor.
> 
> The vintage receiver guys will go nuts over this, typically a vintage receiver drives the headphone jack off the power amp output, but the receiver manufacturers put a 100 to 330 Ohm resistor in series, so the output impedance of the headphone jack is actually 100 to 330 Ohms and the damping factor, well, it kinda sucks!  But the vintage receiver guys love their vintage receivers.....
> 
> ...


 
  true, but some perspective helps ... most vintage receiver (amp) owners have been extolling their use with headphones that happen to like a lot of 'juice' - from k70x to various hifimans/lcd's


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





geetarman49 said:


> true, but some perspective helps ... most vintage receiver (amp) owners have been extolling their use with headphones that happen to like a lot of 'juice' - from k70x to various hifimans/lcd's


 
  Very true, thankings for pointing that out!
  They don't output as much power as everyone thinks, the voltage and current is limited by the high ouput impedance of the headphone jack.
  I once calculated how much power, voltage and current you can get out of a power amp with a 330 Ohm output impedance and posted it on the Vintage receivers thread.  I think I made someone cry that day!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  My main point was the output impedance of these vintage receivers is reeely freeeking high.
   
  I'm not a big fan of them, they weigh a ton, take up a lot of space and have the potential for problems (some of this stuff is from the late '70s!) just to drive an itty bitty pair of 'phones which need 100 or 200 milliWatts??? I don't geddit.


----------



## dogwan

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Yes, lower output impedance gives you a higher damping factor.
> 
> The vintage receiver guys will go nuts over this, typically a vintage receiver drives the headphone jack off the power amp output, but the receiver manufacturers put a 100 to 330 Ohm resistor in series, so the output impedance of the headphone jack is actually 100 to 330 Ohms and the damping factor, well, it kinda sucks!  But the vintage receiver guys love their vintage receivers.....
> 
> ...


 
   
  I actually can't stand my Grado's on the Matrix. Find the combo to be kind of shrill. (disclosure-using the LME49720HA op-amp). I am a fan of the Grado house sound and find they work great with my Mini^3 portable amp.
   
  For me the sweet spot with the Matrix is with the 150 ohm Yamaha HP-2's. Also  Fostex T50rp's which are 50 ohm and the Senn HD600's at 300 ohm are equally enjoyable. Not sure the why's or wherefor's, but that's my experience.
   
  RE: vintage receivers, I have a 1972 Hitachi integrated that is fantastic sounding on speakers. But not so great with any phones except my 600 ohm AKG 240m's. I know the amp is capacitor coupled and uses 220ohm resistors for the headphone out. What Chris J wrote makes sense based on that experience. However, I do follow the vintage receiver thread because I just love the old beasts. Just not for dedicated headphone amp duty.
   
  -Dogwan


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





dogwan said:


> I actually can't stand my Grado's on the Matrix. Find the combo to be kind of shrill. (disclosure-using the LME49720HA op-amp). I am a fan of the Grado house sound and find they work great with my Mini^3 portable amp.
> 
> For me the sweet spot with the Matrix is with the 150 ohm Yamaha HP-2's. Also  Fostex T50rp's which are 50 ohm and the Senn HD600's at 300 ohm are equally enjoyable. Not sure the why's or wherefor's, but that's my experience.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Ouch!
  I have my eye on a pair of Grado RS-2i, sounds like they may not get along with my Matrix M.
  Back up plan is to use my iBasso D12 as a DAC and headphone amp for the Grados.
   
  Lots of us AKG Q701 fan boys love the M Stage & Q701 combo. I'm sure everyone knows the Qs have an impedance of 62 Ohms. I have no technical explanation or rationale for this, I just know what I like.
   
  I don't follow the Vintage Receiver forum thread thing too closely.......maybe all these Vintage receiver fans use high impedance headphones?


----------



## derbigpr

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Ouch!
> I have my eye on a pair of Grado RS-2i, sounds like they may not get along with my Matrix M.
> Back up plan is to use my iBasso D12 as a DAC and headphone amp for the Grados.
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  A vintage receiver is not necessary....a new receiver or speaker amp that sounds good with speakers will be equally good with headphones. Even low impedance ones.


----------



## HamilcarBarca

Quote: 





derbigpr said:


> A vintage receiver is not necessary....a new receiver or speaker amp that sounds good with speakers will be equally good with headphones. Even low impedance ones.


 
   
  A new receiver or speaker amp that sounds good *may be* equally good with headphones.


----------



## derbigpr

Quote: 





hamilcarbarca said:


> A new receiver or speaker amp that sounds good *may be* equally good with headphones.


 
   
  Well, as you wish, but I have yet to find one that has a bad headphone output and doesn't do mid end (up too DT880/HD650 league) headphones justice.  I have lately tried A LOT of receivers and integrated speaker amps (from entry level to very expensive Denons, Marantz, Onkyos, Yamahas, Nads, Rotels, CA's) even some cd players. Basically what I did was take my DT880 600's and HFI2400's with me when I went into the hi-fi stores to audition speakers and amp,  and just pluged my headphones into everything that was on the counters, and haven't found a single unit that would sound anything short of great or would lack power. In fact, I sold all my headphone amps in the last 2 weeks because of my findings.   I think that it makes no sense to own a dedicated headphone amp if for the same money I can have a speaker amp AND an equally good headphone output. Unless I buy some high end headphones, or need something for portable use, I will never buy a head amp again.


----------



## geetarman49

Quote: 





hamilcarbarca said:


> A new receiver or speaker amp that sounds good *may be* equally good with headphones.


 

_yes_ ... vintage receivers are appreciated because in most cases their headphone output is derived from the speaker output; most modern day receivers use an independent cct comprised of a single opamp for the headphone output, so good spkr output is no guarantee for good headphone output.


----------



## derbigpr

Quote: 





geetarman49 said:


> _yes_ ... vintage receivers are appreciated because in most cases their headphone output is derived from the speaker output; most modern day receivers use an independent cct comprised of a single opamp for the headphone output, so good spkr output is no guarantee for good headphone output.


 
  Actually, virtually ALL new receivers or integrated amps have headphone outputs that are derived from the speaker outputs. They don't have separate cheap headphone out circuits like many people think. Some more expensive ones do have separate high quality headphone circuits, but virtually every unit up to 1000-1500$ doesn't.


----------



## geetarman49

Quote: 





derbigpr said:


> Actually, virtually ALL new receivers or integrated amps have headphone outputs that are derived from the speaker outputs. They don't have separate cheap headphone out circuits like many people think. Some more expensive ones do have separate high quality headphone circuits, but virtually every unit up to 1000-1500$ doesn't.


 
  so, just el-cheapo attenuating ccts, then?  if that's the case, then i stand corrected.
  back to the matrix.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





geetarman49 said:


> so, just el-cheapo attenuating ccts, then?  if that's the case, then i stand corrected.
> back to the matrix.


 
   
  Yeah, I'm not big on using the jack on a receiver.
  My pre-amp does not hae a headphone jack so I was forced by these dire circumstances to procure a headphone amp.


----------



## HamilcarBarca

Quote: 





derbigpr said:


> Well, as you wish, but I have yet to find one that has a bad headphone output and doesn't do mid end (up too DT880/HD650 league) headphones justice.


 
   
  Personally, my experience is the same as yours. What I meant to say is just that there's no guarantee.


----------



## HamilcarBarca

I made it a full four days without checking on my M-Stage order from Tam Audio. While I haven't received any shipping notice (or tracking number), the site says my order is "Completed".
   
  Does this mean my package is on the way?
  
  Out of impatience, I ordered a Fiio E5 from Amazon (with next-day delivery for $4) to test with my BD player. It's a very nice unit, especially for the price, and now even BR discs with large dynamic range are audible and sound good through my plastic headphones.
   
  I still want the dual RCA inputs and other features of the M-Stage.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





hamilcarbarca said:


> I made it a full four days without checking on my M-Stage order from Tam Audio. While I haven't received any shipping notice (or tracking number), the site says my order is "Completed".
> 
> Does this mean my package is on the way?
> 
> ...


 
   
  Sort of sounds like it has shipped.
  But you didn't get a tracking #, so I guess your credit is good, and the amp is _ready to be shipped_.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  I'm sure I got a tracking number with my order.


----------



## HamilcarBarca

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  You reminded me of what I should already have done. Thanks.
   
  My bank has in the past declined charges from vendors in Hong Kong, Singapore, England, and even Virginia Beach (VA) until I call and ask for approval. Plus, the bill arrived Thursday, too late for the transaction to appear. By calling them just now, after only seven minutes negotiating their stupid automated-response system, I learned that the charge was authorized the day after I placed the order. It was the same day in China.
   
  I still haven't received an email confirmation much as I'd like to. One poster said he (she?) received confirmation the day after the amp arrived. I don't think I'll need to do this but at the worst I have 30 (60?) days to contest the charge after if first appears on my bill.
   
  The FIIO E5 is really nice. If the M-Stage sounds as good, it will have been more than worth the wait.


----------



## WestLander

When I ordered my M-Stage last year, I also had to wait quite a while before I received an email with tracking number, etc..If I recall I got the tracking a day or two before it was actually delivered!
   
  Keep an eye by the front door, you may be pleasantly surprised anyday now


----------



## DaemonSire

I would be really interested to hear what version you get of the M-Stage from Tam Audio.  I just asked the same question regarding version.
   
  The web page shows the former version (no vents), yet the description says "2012 v.1" version...hopefully meaning v2.1.  I'll update the thread when I get a response.
   
  The poor packaging for the shipping worries me too.  $250 from China is a lot of money and a long way to go with crap packaging.  And the cost to do a return/exchange would be considerable...
   
   
  Any current M-Stage owners:  How much of a difference would you expect the vents to actually make?  Does your unit get very hot without them?  They must have included them for a reason (or possibly just a marketing ploy to justify a 'new' version).
   
   
  And does anyone know the reliability/authenticity of matrixelectronics.net?
http://www.matrixelectronics.net/matrix-m-stage-headphone-amplifier-amp-black-color-p-190.html


----------



## Guess?

Quote: 





daemonsire said:


> Any current M-Stage owners:  How much of a difference would you expect the vents to actually make?  Does your unit get very hot without them?  They must have included them for a reason (or possibly just a marketing ploy to justify a 'new' version).


 
   
  Mine is v 2.1 (with vents) and it gets quite hot after an hour or so. I noticed increased temps after I did the caps bypass mod, but I might be wrong for that. It's a-class biased too. So at ambient temps around 27-30 C it gets quite hot in that configuration after an hour or so, after that it just maintains that temp, so the vents are a good idea, and even better if the amp is placed on the right place.


----------



## DaemonSire

Quote: 





guess? said:


> Mine is v 2.1 (with vents) and it gets quite hot after an hour or so. I noticed increased temps after I did the caps bypass mod, but I might be wrong for that. It's a-class biased too. So at ambient temps around 27-30 C it gets quite hot in that configuration after an hour or so, after that it just maintains that temp, so the vents are a good idea, and even better if the amp is placed on the right place.


 
   
  Cool, thanks...looks like 2.1 is worth the hunt then.   Where did you end up buying yours from?
   
  Thanks


----------



## JosephsART

Quote: 





daemonsire said:


> Cool, thanks...looks like 2.1 is worth the hunt then.


 
   
  I put new op-amps in my M-Stage the other day, and noticed on the chipset it says 2012 v2.2.
   
  So if you're on the hunt, I'm fairly sure 2.2 is the latest version.


----------



## Guess?

Quote: 





daemonsire said:


> Cool, thanks...looks like 2.1 is worth the hunt then.   Where did you end up buying yours from?
> 
> Thanks


 
   
  Tam Audio


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





daemonsire said:


> Any current M-Stage owners:  How much of a difference would you expect the vents to actually make?  Does your unit get very hot without them?  They must have included them for a reason (or possibly just a marketing ploy to justify a 'new' version).


 
   
  After spending 12 years working with thermal analysis teams in the Telecom industry, I can tell you that adding vents (especially on the sides!) makes very little difference.
  To increase the cooling effectively, you would need to thermally bond the heatsinks to the case or use some type of forced air cooling.
  Adding vents to the sides does little or nothing because hot air flows like molasses.
   
  The Op Amp Class A mod adds very little heat.
   
  Guess??   if you bypassed the input caps, assuming your source has no DC offset, this mod will not affect heating/cooling/temperature rise. 
  The main thing is to make sure your source has no DC offset on it's output.


----------



## Guess?

Thanks for the input Chris J, yes, I have checked the DC offset.
 I assumed that if the amp is placed in well ventilated space (unlike where I have placed mine) the vents will be helpful.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





guess? said:


> Thanks for the input Chris J, yes, I have checked the DC offset.
> I assumed that if the amp is placed in well ventilated space (unlike where I have placed mine) the vents will be helpful.


 
   
  And thank you for replying.
  I think the M sounds better with the bypass.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  What do you think?
   
  But I would not want a new Headphone and M Stage owner to damage their 'phones, so I think it bears repeating, even if most of us are sick of hearing it!


----------



## JosephsART

Quote: 





chris j said:


> After spending 12 years working with thermal analysis teams in the Telecom industry, I can tell you that adding vents (especially on the sides!) makes very little difference.
> To increase the cooling effectively, you would need to thermally bond the heatsinks to the case or use some type of forced air cooling.
> Adding vents to the sides does little or nothing because hot air flows like molasses.


 
   
  I think the new version had vents designed on the side as to coincide with the introduction of the M-Stage DAC. Question is though, if the devices were stacked on-top of each other (as pictured), which order would the devices stack?
   
  I figured running the amplifier on top would allow for heat to disperse from the unit faster, though at the same time, it would conduct heat from the DAC below it (even though the DAC outputs considerably less heat). Having the DAC on top instead could mean it conducts all the heat from the amplifier, and the amplifier would have less ventilation. I'm not sure what the best scenario would be.
   
  I suppose alternatively, you could run both devices on their sides, so the heat can escape upwards through the side vents. Doesn't look fancy though.


----------



## Guess?

Quote: 





chris j said:


> And thank you for replying.
> I think the M sounds better with the bypass.
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  I like it better too. It's been a while since I've done the mod, and I'm pretty happy with the sound, some friends with pricier amps are loving my M-stage which is good news, for me at least. With the mod I totally disliked the a-biased LME49710NA sound (so cold), and put the OPA627BP. Before the mod I preferred the LME/s to the 627/s. Now the sound is right for my ears, and right now I'm thinking of maybe HE-400 to join the M-Stage some day... Anyway you're right for pointing out about the DC offset, it's an important thing to avoid. Cheers!


----------



## JosephsART

Quote: 





guess? said:


> Now the sound is right for my ears, and right now I'm thinking of maybe HE-400 to join the M-Stage some day...


 
   
  I'm considering a pair of these as well, though I noted that the damping factor may be an issue with the M-Stage. Will it make a considerable difference? I suppose the only way to find out is to hear it.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





josephsart said:


> I think the new version had vents designed on the side as to coincide with the introduction of the M-Stage DAC. Question is though, if the devices were stacked on-top of each other (as pictured), which order would the devices stack?
> 
> I figured running the amplifier on top would allow for heat to disperse from the unit faster, though at the same time, it would conduct heat from the DAC below it (even though the DAC outputs considerably less heat). Having the DAC on top instead could mean it conducts all the heat from the amplifier, and the amplifier would have less ventilation. I'm not sure what the best scenario would be.
> 
> I suppose alternatively, you could run both devices on their sides, so the heat can escape upwards through the side vents. Doesn't look fancy though.


 
   
  If ya gotta stack, I would put the hotter box on top!
  Obviously, keep a few inches of clearances on the sides and top.
   
  Cheers, C.
  Quote: 





guess? said:


> I like it better too. It's been a while since I've done the mod, and I'm pretty happy with the sound, some friends with pricier amps are loving my M-stage which is good news, for me at least. With the mod I totally disliked the a-biased LME49710NA sound (so cold), and put the OPA627BP. Before the mod I preferred the LME/s to the 627/s. Now the sound is right for my ears, and right now I'm thinking of maybe HE-400 to join the M-Stage some day... Anyway you're right for pointing out about the DC offset, it's an important thing to avoid. Cheers!


 
   
  I'm an LM4562 fan boy myself.
  So far, I've tried the stock Op Amp and Class A and Non Class A OPA627s
  Personally, I hear very little difference between Op Amps in the M.
  I just think the LM4562 is a bit cleaner and clearer.
  I normally use the M with my Q701s.
  YMMV.
   
  BTW, I've found that rolling in those various Op Amps made no difference to the DC offset at the OUPUT of the M Stage.


----------



## Guess?

Quote: 





josephsart said:


> I'm considering a pair of these as well, though I noted that the damping factor may be an issue with the M-Stage. Will it make a considerable difference? I suppose the only way to find out is to hear it.


 
   
  I think it won't be a problem at all, I have already asked some people - all of them reported a great/good combination between the M-Stage & HE-400. The issue is the money. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Thanks for the review of the M-Stage Dac by the way.


----------



## Guess?

Quote: 





chris j said:


> If ya gotta stack, I would put the hotter box on top!
> Obviously, keep a few inches of clearances on the sides and top.


 
          Good point.
   
   
  Quote: 





chris j said:


> I'm an LM4562 fan boy myself.
> So far, I've tried the stock Op Amp and Class A and Non Class A OPA627s
> Personally, I hear very little difference between Op Amps in the M.
> I just think the LM4562 is a bit cleaner and clearer.
> ...


 
   
  Yes, I thought the same, until we did a blind test to see what's really happening. We were using K701 then. So we choose three different songs/genres, each one had to listen to those three songs and write down his impressions. After that we repeated the operation with the other op amps. No one was allowed to read the others writings until we finished the test. Then we read what we have wrote to compare - all three of us noticed the same flaws/negatives in the LME/s, the 627BP sounded more full and complete whereas the LME/s more thin and annoying, on one of the songs the difference was really big. There are also some some fake 627s which do not sound the same as the genuine ones, we've checked mine - they're OK. Before the mod I really liked the sound of the LME better than the 627.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





josephsart said:


> I'm considering a pair of these as well, though I noted that the damping factor may be an issue with the M-Stage. Will it make a considerable difference? I suppose the only way to find out is to hear it.


 
  The HE-400 has a 35 Ohm impedance,
  The M Stage has a 5 Ohm output impedance.
  In terms of damping factor that should be OK.
  The 1/8 and 1/10 or more impedance rules are really just guidelines.
   
  I would be more concerned about other owners impressions of the HE-400 and M combo.
  Guess? says the HE-400 owners like the combo, so I would go with the reported synergy.


----------



## JosephsART

chris j said:


> If ya gotta stack, I would put the hotter box on top!
> Obviously, keep a few inches of clearances on the sides and top.


 
   
  Thanks Chris, dunno why Matrix pictured it with the DAC on top. I had it like that originally and it just didn't make sense, so I swapped them around tonight. There's plenty of space around the stack, and I think everything is running cooler 
   


chris j said:


> The HE-400 has a 35 Ohm impedance,
> The M Stage has a 5 Ohm output impedance.
> In terms of damping factor that should be OK.
> The 1/8 and 1/10 or more impedance rules are really just guidelines.


 



guess? said:


> I think it won't be a problem at all, I have already asked some people - all of them reported a great/good combination between the M-Stage & HE-400. The issue is the money.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  If it's any comparison, the HE-400 is 91db/32Ω, HE-500 is 89db/38Ω and the LCD-2 is 91db/60Ω.
   
  I read that the HE-500 & LCD-2 shine with >1000mW power, so I hope that (being orthodynamic) the HE-400 is as manageable as everyone suggests with the M-Stage pushing 400mW. I haven't found any requirements for them myself, so I'll presume the reported synergy is desirable.
   
  And thanks, it's the curiosity from people here that got me into the M-Stage, and it's awesome to give some feedback


----------



## HamilcarBarca

I received my (M-Stage amp) shipping confirmation from Tam Audio this afternoon. It's been just over 7 days since I ordered.
   
  The online status has changed from "Complete" to "Shipped." It's confusing, to me at least, because Amazon uses "Complete" to mean everything in the order has shipped. But that's a minor quibble.
   
  Now, I start following the tracking information!


----------



## chicolom

Headfonia has reviewed Matrix's new little amp/dac box.
  http://www.headfonia.com/the-320-portable-dacamp-matrix-mini-portable/


----------



## HamilcarBarca

Quote: 





hamilcarbarca said:


> I received my (M-Stage amp) shipping confirmation from Tam Audio this afternoon. It's been just over 7 days since I ordered.
> 
> The online status has changed from "Complete" to "Shipped." It's confusing, to me at least, because Amazon uses "Complete" to mean everything in the order has shipped. But that's a minor quibble.
> 
> Now, I start following the tracking information!


 
   
  UPDATE: When I enter my tracking number into the EMS web page, http://www.ems.com.cn/english.html, I get this helpful response.
   
      无查询邮件信息或邮件超过查询期限.
   
  Google says this means
   
      The no query mail messages or e-mail over query period.
   
  If EMS can't be bothered to hire an English translator for their "WORLDWIDE EXPRESS MAIL SERVICE", I'm going to avoid ordering from any vendor who uses them. I'd rather shop at Walmart.


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





hamilcarbarca said:


> If EMS can't be bothered to hire an English translator for their "WORLDWIDE EXPRESS MAIL SERVICE", I'm going to avoid ordering from any vendor who uses them. I'd rather shop at Walmart.


 
   
  Good luck finding an M-Stage at Walmart.


----------



## JosephsART

Quote: 





hamilcarbarca said:


> I received my (M-Stage amp) shipping confirmation from Tam Audio this afternoon. It's been just over 7 days since I ordered.


 
   
  Don't sound surprised. I've been nothing but unhappy with Tam Audio's performance recently. I believe the dude packed up and went on holidays and he's been fairly difficult to work with as of late. Like I said earlier, I received my item with the original box used as the packaging, with a shipping slip strapped to it. My op-amp was also incredibly lightly packed, and he strapped tape on the actual hardware itself! My first order took 2 weeks since payment, my second order, 4 weeks.
   
  Quote: 





hamilcarbarca said:


> When I enter my tracking number into the EMS web page, http://www.ems.com.cn/english.html, I get this helpful response.
> 
> 无查询邮件信息或邮件超过查询期限.


 
   
  I've bought Matrix equipment from 3 different sellers, 2 from eBay and Tam Audio. They were all in China and they all used EMS.
   
  I had success using this page http://www.ems.com.cn/mailtracking/e_you_jian_cha_xun.html
   
  Though sometimes the captcha image doesn't load, or the item can't be found.


----------



## HamilcarBarca

Quote: 





josephsart said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  There were a number of reports of late or non-existent shipping confirmations and of poor packaging. I recognize yours as one of them. I was and am somewhat anxious, but I knew in advance of these potential problems. However, EMS is a "WORLDWIDE EXPRESS MAIL SERVICE" (to quote from their web site) who can't be bothered translate a simple message into English. Tam Audio may be disorganized; EMS' service is unacceptable.
   
  When I lived on the (US) east coast, I wouldn't order from any vendor unless I was assured they wouldn't use FedEx who would routinely
   

 abandon valuable packages on my doorstep or my neighbors' doorsteps; and
 attach dishonest "attempted delivery -- nobody home" notices to my door even when I was at home.
   
  Where I live now, FedEx' service is much better. I still like USPS far more than I like FedEx or UPS. Some people have had different experiences.


----------



## JosephsART

Off topic, I'm still puzzled with this one;
   
  Does anyone know how the gain switches work?
   
  How does using the gains affect the sound signature and performance?


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





josephsart said:


> Off topic, I'm still puzzled with this one;
> 
> Does anyone know how the gain switches work?
> 
> How does using the gains affect the sound signature and performance?


 
   
  Not too sure what you are actually asking, but I'll try to answer.
   
  The gain switches decrease or increase the voltage gain of the amplifier to compensate for different sensitivity headphones.
  They do not really affect the maximum power the Matrix can deliver.
  20 dB is obviously loudest & for very low sensitivity 'phones, 0 dB is obviously quietest gain setting and is used with highest sensitivity 'phones.
  In theory it should not affect the sound signature, but in practice, most people don't like the sound of 20 dB of gain on the Matrix M.
  I think most M users prefer 10 dB of gain.


----------



## JosephsART

Quote: 





chris j said:


> The gain switches decrease or increase the voltage gain of the amplifier to compensate for different sensitivity headphones. They do not really affect the maximum power the Matrix can deliver.


 
   
  Thanks Chris, I wasn't aware the switches controlled voltage.
   
  I imagine high gains with low impedance headphones would simply be annoying. Though I am still curious about how it affects the sound for these people, or why people would prefer a 10dB gain.
   
  Also, would a voltage gain influence operating temperature? I'm trying to learn if having my volume at 5 o'clock with a 0dB gain, or the volume at about 9 o'clock on an 18dB gain has a difference. It's the same volume, but there are different variables involved. Is there potentially something that is bad for the amplifier or sound?


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





josephsart said:


> Thanks Chris, I wasn't aware the switches controlled voltage.
> 
> I imagine high gains with low impedance headphones would simply be annoying. Though I am still curious about how it affects the sound for these people, or why people would prefer a 10dB gain.
> 
> Also, would a voltage gain influence operating temperature? I'm trying to learn if having my volume at 5 o'clock with a 0dB gain, or the volume at about 9 o'clock on an 18dB gain has a difference. It's the same volume, but there are different variables involved. Is there potentially something that is bad for the amplifier or sound?


 
   
  The switches only control the voltage gain of the amplifier.
  They do not change the maximum voltage the Matrix can output.
  Of course, it is possible to set the gain to 0dB, and if you have very low sensitivity 'phones, you may not have enough volume, even when volume control is full clockwise.
   
  As for why people don't like the sound of 20 dB of gain, I'm not sure why.
  I've tried it, and I prefer the sound of 10 dB of gain.
_Logically & theoretically, it makes very little sense! I just feel it sounds better at 10 dB of gain!_
  My only guess is there is less negative feedback at 20 dB of gain (which is true) and we don't like the added distortion (just guessing here).
   
  You do bring up a good point:
  when set to 20 dB of gain with 62 Ohm Q701s, the volume control is turned way down and left to right channel imbalance becomes a problem because the channel to channel matching is not very good in the volume control when turned down to approx. 9-10 o'clock.
   
  Voltage gain does not affect operating temperature.
  In theory, it should not matter *to the amp* if:
   - gain is set high and volume control is set low
  or
   - gain is set low and volume control is set high
  to get the same volume.
   
  However, if you decide to roll in different Op Amps, it is wise to use a gain of 10 dB or more as the replacement Op Amp you use might oscillate at 0 dBs of gain.
  You can check this with an oscilloscope, but you need to have an oscilloscope!


----------



## DaemonSire

thanks for the replies to my questions everyone.
   
  Got responses from Tam Audio as well - they said they are the latest version with the side vents.
   
  The reports on the shipping concerns me a bit though.


----------



## JosephsART

Quote: 





daemonsire said:


> The reports on the shipping concerns me a bit though.


 
   
  Cross your fingers on this one, but I get the impression that Tam was rushing out orders leading up to his holiday. Perhaps things are back to normal now.
   
   
  Quote: 





chris j said:


> The switches only control the voltage gain of the amplifier.
> They do not change the maximum voltage the Matrix can output.
> Of course, it is possible to set the gain to 0dB, and if you have very low sensitivity 'phones, you may not have enough volume, even when volume control is full clockwise.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Thanks Chris, lots of good information there! I've got different op-amps in mine, but the impedance on the DAC has forced me to use 10dB gain, and I suppose for the better! All seems good in M-Stage town, now it's time to enjoy some music


----------



## darkwave

i just purchased the AKG K550 and the dac Audinst HUD-mx1 Hi-Fi USB Audio, will be a good idea to buy the matrix m stage and use it as an amp conected to rca out from the Audinst?
  thanks


----------



## derbigpr

Quote: 





darkwave said:


> i just purchased the AKG K550 and the dac Audinst HUD-mx1 Hi-Fi USB Audio, will be a good idea to buy the matrix m stage and use it as an amp conected to rca out from the Audinst?
> thanks


 
   
   
  Waste of money, you could have bought the Matrix mini-i instead and have a better DAC than Audinst, and same amp basically as the M-stage.


----------



## Gang

I am enjoying HUD-mx1 -> M-stage -> K702/HD600.  But I don't know more about K550.


----------



## WestLander

Quote: 





darkwave said:


> i just purchased the AKG K550 and the dac Audinst HUD-mx1 Hi-Fi USB Audio, will be a good idea to buy the matrix m stage and use it as an amp conected to rca out from the Audinst?
> thanks


 
   
  I have the Audinst + M-Stage combo and I like it a lot. It powers everything from my vintage K500s to my modded Fostex T50RP. I think that dac-amp combo has great synergy, so you may be quite happy to use it with your K550s. I should say that the Audinst has a fairly good headphone out, but with the M-Stage you get better bass slam, better clarity (less gain), and bigger soundstage.


----------



## JFM75

Hello everybody ! I'm planning to use my M-Stage amp with a Musical Fidelity M1 DAC A (and with an AKG K702 headphone). What do you think of this association ?


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





jfm75 said:


> Hello everybody ! I'm planning to use my M-Stage amp with a Musical Fidelity M1 DAC A (and with an AKG K702 headphone). What do you think of this association ?


 
   
  Sounds fine to me


----------



## JFM75

Quote: 





chicolom said:


> Sounds fine to me


 
   
  Thanks a lot !


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





jfm75 said:


> Hello everybody ! I'm planning to use my M-Stage amp with a Musical Fidelity M1 DAC A (and with an AKG K702 headphone). What do you think of this association ?


 
  I think I'm jealous.


----------



## HaVoC-28

Quote: 





jfm75 said:


> Hello everybody ! I'm planning to use my M-Stage amp with a Musical Fidelity M1 DAC A (and with an AKG K702 headphone). What do you think of this association ?


 
   
   
  I would have spent more on the Amp rather than the DAC . But well m-stage is a good match with K702 so it's seems fine .


----------



## EinZweiDrei

will the amp affect anything plugged into its L and R output in the back? like speakers?


----------



## kazaakas

I just received this amp and before plugging it in I was already impressed by its rock-like sturdyness.
  Since my Q701 is taking a long time to arrive I decided to check it out with my current HD555 headphones, and I surely am impressed already!
  Really clean sounding amp, I like it. Also hooked the RCA output up to my crappy 2.1 speakers and they sound better than ever before!
  I'm wondering what kind of replacement opamp I could get for it. I like the uncolored, transparent nature of this thing so I'm kinda looking for a general improvement in detail, so not really change the signature, any suggestions? OPA602, OPA627, OPA827 or LME49990? All these seem to be generally liked, but I can't really seem to find any kind of comparison, of course it's all opinion, but still... Price isn't much of an issue as long as its < $30 which almost every opamp is if I'm not mistaken.
   
  Quote: 





einzweidrei said:


> will the amp affect anything plugged into its L and R output in the back? like speakers?


 
  I can tell you from personal use: Yes the amp will output an amped signal to the RCA outputs on the back when there is no headphone plugged in


----------



## Xymordos

Actually the amp outputs signal anyways when headphones are plugged in...


----------



## kazaakas

Quote: 





xymordos said:


> Actually the amp outputs signal anyways when headphones are plugged in...


 
  Just checked and I'm 100% sure mine doesn't


----------



## Xymordos

Really? Mine isn't the 2012 version, so it might be different. But many times I left my speakers on while listening to headphones and wondered why my headphones had such massive sound stage...


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





xymordos said:


> Really? Mine isn't the 2012 version, so it might be different. But many times I left my speakers on while listening to headphones and wondered why my headphones had such massive sound stage...


 
   
  I have the 2011 model, RCAs output sound whether or not headphones are plugged in.
   
  But I have noticed that volume drops if I plug a source into input 1 and switch to input 2 when I am also listening to source 1 via my amp & speakers.


----------



## Xymordos

Sorry I didn't really understand what you just wrote :\
  I never used both inputs though.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





xymordos said:


> Sorry I didn't really understand what you just wrote :\
> I never used both inputs though.


 
   
  Maybe I should expand:  my CD player has two outputs.
  I send one to my stereo pre-amp
  I send the other to my mighty, mighty Matrix M. It is plugged into Input 1. There is nothing plugged into matrix input #2.
  When I listen to my CD player thru my stereo pre-amp and switch Matrix to Input 2 the pre-amp volume drops!


----------



## Xymordos

That's really odd o.O. With nothing plugged into input 2, shouldn't it just cut the circuit to the m-Stage?


----------



## Chris J

The sound level coming out of my speakers drops a small amount when I switch the Matrix inputs!

Not the sound coming out of the headphones. The sound coming out of the headphones drops to Zero.


----------



## Xymordos

I would suggest emailing the makers of the m-Stage about this in case it is a sign of a defective product :\


----------



## Chris J

I don't flip the input switch to input #2.
  That solves the problem to my satisfaction.


----------



## otherlives

Bought one of these to pair with HD650's.  Seems like there are slightly better choices on the market, but for the price and the fact I needed something that would be a *portable* desk amp that I could throw in my bag and carry between offices I figured this was pretty good.  It looks like the two preferred options for setting up this amp are the LM4562 at 18 gain or the class A biasing 627's?


----------



## Xymordos

I've compared 627sm, 637sm and 49710HA, and I still found that the original 2134PA sounds the best. It just sounds...matching with the amp. The other opamps do give a different sound, but those sounds doesn't seem to be flowing with this amp.


----------



## Chris J

I like the LM4562 with gain on 10 dB, but in the interests of "full disclosure" I should point out that I have deleted the input cap.
  I use Q701s with this amp....................90% of the time!


----------



## Guess?

A-class OPA627BP with shunted input caps gives me what I need.


----------



## singlung

i might be a little late on this, but thanks for the great review!
  after reading it i chose the m-stage as my first headphone amp and i am very happy so far.


----------



## DaemonSire

I just received the Matrix M-Stage and had a question.
   
  If I have a pair of headphones plugged into it when I turn the unit off, the music stops immediately and then a second or two later, there is a loud "Whoosh" sound.  Is this normal operation and will it cause any damage to the headphones?
   
  Are you supposed to unplug your headphones before/after you turn the unit on/off?
   
  I worry that it is something like the Schiit Asgard video that they corrected down the line.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCZ-AJQOiDg
   
  Do all the units do this?
   
  Thanks


----------



## Chris J

daemonsire said:


> I just received the Matrix M-Stage and had a question.
> 
> If I have a pair of headphones plugged into it when I turn the unit off, the music stops immediately and then a second or two later, there is a loud "Whoosh" sound.  Is this normal operation and will it cause any damage to the headphones?
> 
> ...




It is good practice to ALWAYS unplug headphones before turning the amp Off.
Many amps output a DC pulse after the amp is turned off.

In addition, always turn the amp on, then plug in the 'phones.


----------



## Mad Max

Shouldn't happen with an M-Stage, assuming that it isn't faulty.


----------



## eliben85

Hi Guys,
   
  Just got myself an m-stage about a week ago for my HD800 based on the recommendation on this thread. I have encountered a pretty annoying 
   
  I have a CDP and a PC with DAC as sources and both are connected to an integrated Amp. 
  In order to add the m-stage to the setup I tried to connect the sources to the m-stage and than the m-stage to the integrated through the analog output.
  Unfortunately this setup caused the sound to get very dry and lacking in detail. I am assuming the reason is that this setup pre-amps the signal twice..
   
  what I am trying to achieve is a way to connect the sources to the integrated and feed the m-stage from it if I want to listen to headphones. A much simpler solution than changing the rca every time I want to listen through headphones. 
   
  The solution I found was is to connect the m-stage to the pre-out of the integrated. it works nicely technically but the problem is I do not feel any impovement over the built-in headphone out of the integrated amp (there is a great improvement in sound when the source is directly connected to the m-stage) 
   
  Hope my mumbling makes sense to someone and that a solution is out that there which is simpler than changing wiring twice a day. 
   
  Cheers 
  Eli


----------



## dogwan

Quote: 





eliben85 said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> ......
> 
> ...


 
   
  Does your integrated have a tape monitor? Try connecting the "tape out" to the Matrix. That should grab the signal before it's processed by the preamp, but still allow you to use the input selector of the preamp. Of course you will have to use the volume control on the Matrix.


----------



## joebobbilly

Wow what a monster review!!! Why can't all the others write reviews like this?!?!?  How do you find livewire trips comparing to Shure SE 425 or 535?


----------



## eliben85

Hey Joeb,
   
  Thanks for the reply. I did try that, and the CDR out but I get a volume so low that bob dylan sounds like he is whispering about the hurricane 
  Do you (Or anyone) have any idea why that would happen? I tried a couple of different cables but that made no change either.


----------



## dogwan

Quote: 





eliben85 said:


> Hey Joeb,
> 
> Thanks for the reply. I did try that, and the CDR out but I get a volume so low that bob dylan sounds like he is whispering about the hurricane
> Do you (Or anyone) have any idea why that would happen? I tried a couple of different cables but that made no change either.


 

 Hard to say without knowing what your pre-amp is.   Most preamps with a "tape out" output a line level signal and that should work going into a line input of the Matrix. Some preamps allow you to listen to one source while taping another, if that's the case you may have to make sure everything is set right. I've seen some preamps that had a switchable tape out between line level and mic level. Could that be the case? Is it a modern preamp with Surround or DTS? It may not be set for 2 channel only.
   
  Just some thoughts.
   
  -Dogwan


----------



## George_63

Hi everyone
      I ordered *Matrix* yesterday to match it with my* K701* and I just hope it will be as good as every K701/2 owner claims.My first low budget amp was a *pro-ject Headbox II* which I hated right away being a musically bad match for my cans.I got the* Cmoybb* from *jdslabs* after that, but allthough the AKGs sounded great,I couldn't raise up the volume to the limit because of severe clipping.Then I changed my Xonar DX for the Xonar STX since I could use its own headamp which BTW is quite good for the money spent.The problem was that compared to the cmoy the sound was much dryer and harsh.Got back to the cmoy and soldered a second TLE2426 virtual ground resulting to a 15-20% higher  volume level through current increase, thus reaching the desired vol level.I should say that the combination is surprisingly good for a 60$ ''tin''.Music comes out warm,clear,and I can hear low frequencies as never before.OK I know that that may just be due to the fact that I have never listened music through a hi-end dac-amp setup ,and you 'll be probably right.
      I spent dozens of nights reading the head-fi fora,in search for the amp capable to drive these phones to their ''wake-up and shine'' point and I decided to go for the *Heed CanAmp*.Living in Greece doesn't leave me with a lot of choices for solutions like the *Lyr* for example as US import tax is high.So it was a pleasant surprise to come upon this M-stage review and discussion,since most of you agree that Matrix is almost as good as the Heed for half the price.I 'll throw a few words as soon as it arrives.
      Some of you have mentioned that rolling to *LN4562NA* op-amp has been an improvement over the stock *OPA2134*.Has anyone tried using *OPA2227P* which BTW comes with the Cmoybb? People say that this op-amp gives a tube-like color to the sound.As for me since I allready have it,I will certainly give it a try  before deciding to order the 4562 and let you know.


----------



## eliben85

Quote: 





dogwan said:


> Hard to say without knowing what your pre-amp is.   Most preamps with a "tape out" output a line level signal and that should work going into a line input of the Matrix. Some preamps allow you to listen to one source while taping another, if that's the case you may have to make sure everything is set right. I've seen some preamps that had a switchable tape out between line level and mic level. Could that be the case? Is it a modern preamp with Surround or DTS? It may not be set for 2 channel only.
> 
> Just some thoughts.
> 
> -Dogwan


 
  Hi and thank for replying
   
  The integrated amp is a harman kardon HK980 stereo amp if it helps. 
  The only "solution I found was connecting my sources to the matrix and using the output of the matrix to connect to my integrated. This however causes a degradation in sound quality due to dual preamping. 
   
  The one thing I do not understand is why is the volume when connecting the CDR or Tape out is ridiculously low. this in theory is the perfect solution. any ideas? 
   
  Thanks 
   
  Edit: got it to work fixing some setting on the integrated amp. Thank you for replying and helping get this fixed. finnaly enjoying my CDP properly


----------



## dogwan

Quote: 





eliben85 said:


> Hi and thank for replying
> 
> The integrated amp is a harman kardon HK980 stereo amp if it helps.
> The only "solution I found was connecting my sources to the matrix and using the output of the matrix to connect to my integrated. This however causes a degradation in sound quality due to dual preamping.
> ...


 

 Yay! So that is working now using the Tape out? Cool. That's one reason I like older (2-channel) equipment without all that home theater processing.
   
  Curious, is the sound quality where you want it?


----------



## eliben85

Quote: 





dogwan said:


> Yay! So that is working now using the Tape out? Cool. That's one reason I like older (2-channel) equipment without all that home theater processing.
> 
> Curious, is the sound quality where you want it?


 
  Thanks man, your comment is what set me on track to getting it fixed, i'm pleased it all worked out fine and peace has returned to my sound shrine.
  as to your question, I'm in the belief that sound quality is where we want it to be when our mind is sinking into the music. It can be with a 64kbps crappy recording of tom waits singing in some bar or it can be a DVD-A remaster of muddy waters blues singer. the mind takes us there, not better headphones/amps etc.
   
  but yes, the m-stage fed from a real good CDP (Bel canto PL1-A) makes records sing with my HD800. just an absolute joy.  I would perhaps worn people that a mediocre source (cheap dac for example) will not be so nice to listen to if you have the HD800 and m-stage. As my pc rig amp I have the Lake People 109p which does a much better job at making the HD800 fun with just about anything. 
  Just my opinion 
   
  Cheers all


----------



## Chris J

george_63 said:


> Hi everyone
> I ordered *Matrix* yesterday to match it with my *K701* and I just hope it will be as good as every K701/2 owner claims.My first low budget amp was a *pro-ject Headbox II* which I hated right away being a musically bad match for my cans.I got the *Cmoybb* from *jdslabs* after that, but allthough the AKGs sounded great,I couldn't raise up the volume to the limit because of severe clipping.Then I changed my Xonar DX for the Xonar STX since I could use its own headamp which BTW is quite good for the money spent.The problem was that compared to the cmoy the sound was much dryer and harsh.Got back to the cmoy and soldered a second TLE2426 virtual ground resulting to a 15-20% higher  volume level through current increase, thus reaching the desired vol level.I should say that the combination is surprisingly good for a 60$ ''tin''.Music comes out warm,clear,and I can hear low frequencies as never before.OK I know that that may just be due to the fact that I have never listened music through a hi-end dac-amp setup ,and you 'll be probably right.
> I spent dozens of nights reading the head-fi fora,in search for the amp capable to drive these phones to their ''wake-up and shine'' point and I decided to go for the *Heed CanAmp*.Living in Greece doesn't leave me with a lot of choices for solutions like the *Lyr* for example as US import tax is high.So it was a pleasant surprise to come upon this M-stage review and discussion,since most of you agree that Matrix is almost as good as the Heed for half the price.I 'll throw a few words as soon as it arrives.
> Some of you have mentioned that rolling to *LN4562NA* op-amp has been an improvement over the stock *OPA2134*.Has anyone tried using *OPA2227P* which BTW comes with the Cmoybb? People say that this op-amp gives a tube-like color to the sound.As for me since I allready have it,I will certainly give it a try  before deciding to order the 4562 and let you know.





Let me just say that in my learned opinion, LOL, the Matrix will go loud enough to blow your eardrums out and destroy your headphones too!

Changing the Op Amp changes the sound of the Matrix M very subtley, I think the LM4562, but the MatrixM Stage will still sound like a Matrix M Stage.


----------



## chicolom

I'm selling my new unused opamps that I never got around to rolling.  Buy them!!
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/633854/opamps-2x-opa602bp-2x-opa827-2x-ada4627-multiple-adapters-capacitors


----------



## George_63

What is the average burn-in time for the Matrix?
  I happen to have two pairs of RCA interconnects: a 2965 Mogami and an Oehlbach NF1. Does anyone know if they are good enough to use with matrix?
  Thanks


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





george_63 said:


> What is the average burn-in time for the Matrix?
> I happen to have two pairs of RCA interconnects: a 2965 Mogami and an Oehlbach NF1. Does anyone know if they are good enough to use with matrix?
> Thanks


 
   
  I'm not really a burn in believer so I will say burn in is approx. 1/2 hour, long enough to let the Matrix warm up!
   
  Cables like that are good enough for the Matrix, it is NOT an ultra, hyper, super revealing amp.


----------



## HamilcarBarca

Quote: 





george_63 said:


> What is the average burn-in time for the Matrix?
> I happen to have two pairs of RCA interconnects: a 2965 Mogami and an Oehlbach NF1. Does anyone know if they are good enough to use with matrix?
> Thanks


 
   
  The M-Stage is a solid-state device. There's no break-in time. None.
   



george_63 said:


> I happen to have two pairs of RCA interconnects: a 2965 Mogami and an Oehlbach NF1. Does anyone know if they are good enough to use with matrix?


 

   
  Absolutely.


----------



## GaToMaLaCo

Actually there is some warm up time and break in time. It has, for example, 2 large capacitors that needs usage to perform it best. Opamps also have a little burn in time.


----------



## HamilcarBarca

Quote: 





gatomalaco said:


> Actually there is some warm up time and break in time. It has, for example, 2 large capacitors that needs usage to perform it best. Opamps also have a little burn in time.


 
   
  No, that's an audiophile myth: There is no break-in time for capacitors or op-amps. Any Electrical Engineer can confirm this.


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





george_63 said:


> I happen to have two pairs of RCA interconnects: a 2965 Mogami and an Oehlbach NF1. Does anyone know if they are good enough to use with matrix?
> Thanks


 
   
   
  I'm listening to the M-stage right now, and I am _literally _using an interconnect I bought at the Dollar Store for $1.
   
  It sounds OK, but I need to get a better one as it feels cheap as hell.  I normally use monoprice cables...


----------



## HamilcarBarca

Quote: 





chicolom said:


> I'm listening to the M-stage right now, and I am _literally _using an interconnect I bought at the Dollar Store for $1.
> 
> It sounds OK, but I need to get a better one as it feels cheap as hell.  I normally use monoprice cables...


 
   
  I sometimes buy Monster cables. They're well-made and when I find them on sale at 90% off retail, they're reasonably priced!
   
  +1 for Monoprice


----------



## GaToMaLaCo

hamilcarbarca said:


> gatomalaco said:
> 
> 
> > Actually there is some warm up time and break in time. It has, for example, 2 large capacitors that needs usage to perform it best. Opamps also have a little burn in time.
> ...




I'm a electrical engineer and i can comfirm that. ^-^


----------



## Guess?

I've tested some rca and power cables with the m-stage, it does make a difference between cheap and quality cables.


----------



## Chris J

hamilcarbarca said:


> No, that's an audiophile myth: There is no break-in time for capacitors or op-amps. Any Electrical Engineer can confirm this.




I thought I just did that!

Anyway, they do take some time to warm up.

The electrolytic caps are in the power supply, they are not directly in the signal path.


----------



## HaVoC-28

Quote: 





guess? said:


> I've tested some rca and power cables with the m-stage, it does make a difference between cheap and quality cables bad and well built cables .


 
   






 Corrected 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Cheap don't always mean bad .


----------



## Guess?

Of course, M-stage is relatively cheap amp, but... I just wanted to differentiate the generic/cheap and DIY/quality/relatively more expensive cables, which make an audible difference. You can't build a quality cable for $5 after all. Both the interconnects and power cables can make an audible difference with this amp!


----------



## Chris J

guess? said:


> Of course, M-stage is relatively cheap amp, but... I just wanted to differentiate the generic/cheap and DIY/quality/relatively more expensive cables, which make an audible difference. You can't build a quality cable for $5 after all. Both the interconnects and power cables can make an audible difference with this amp!




Um............let us all meditate!

Ooooooooooommmmmmmmmm!


----------



## Guess?

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Um............let us all meditate!
> Ooooooooooommmmmmmmmm!


----------



## HamilcarBarca

Quote: 





guess? said:


> I just wanted to differentiate the generic/cheap and DIY/quality/relatively more expensive cables, which make an audible difference. You can't build a quality cable for $5 after all. Both the interconnects and power cables can make an audible difference with this amp!


 
   
  Please "differentiate" in the Sound Science forum.


----------



## Guess?

Quote: 





hamilcarbarca said:


> Please "differentiate" in the Sound Science forum.


 
  Thanks for your input in the Matrix M-Stage thread, that was really helpful.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





guess? said:


> Of course, M-stage is relatively cheap amp, but... I just wanted to differentiate the generic/cheap and DIY/quality/relatively more expensive cables, which make an audible difference. You can't build a quality cable for $5 after all. Both the interconnects and power cables can make an audible difference with this amp!


 
   
  Seriously, if you want to debate cables in this thread WRT the Matrix M, well, why not?
  Go for it!


----------



## the search never ends

Quote: 





hamilcarbarca said:


> No, that's an audiophile myth: There is no break-in time for capacitors or op-amps. Any Electrical Engineer can confirm this.


 
  Really? I'm an electrical engineer, and I believe different, stop acting like your opinion is absolute.  The only difference between a fact and an opinion is facts can be proven and disproven, and they are all the time. Science is based on measurements and logic. And it's not etched in stone. I respect your opinion, but please don't try to pound it in like it's the last word.


----------



## the search never ends

Quote: 





chris j said:


> I'm not really a burn in believer so I will say burn in is approx. 1/2 hour, long enough to let the Matrix warm up!
> 
> Cables like that are good enough for the Matrix, it is NOT an ultra, hyper, super revealing amp.


 
  That's about right in my opinion, burn in is very short time period. Let it warm up good the first time you use it, and why not five minutes or so in the following uses.


----------



## chicolom

Burn-in probably isn't the best term when talking about amps.  When people hear "burn-in" they think your saying it needs many hours of running time before it will sound correct.
   
  A better term for amps/caps/etc. would just be "warm up", meaning it just needs a very short time to _literally_ warm up.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





chicolom said:


> Burn-in probably isn't the best term when talking about amps.  When people hear "burn-in" they think your saying it needs many hours of running time before it will sound correct.
> 
> A better term for amps/caps/etc. would just be "warm up", meaning it just needs a very short time to _literally_ warm up.


 
   
   
  My advice is to put it in the microwave oven and give 'er a blast for 30 seconds! Then power it up and listen! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  (and that was a joke! PLEASE! do not do this!)


----------



## DTrewwye

Quote: 





chris j said:


> My advice is to put it in the microwave oven and give 'er a blast for 30 seconds! Then power it up and listen!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I've seen that joke before - perhaps we'd see someone fry his M-Stage and headphones with pictures to show! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  On a serious note - DONT DO IT


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





chris j said:


> My advice is to put it in the microwave oven and give 'er a blast for 30 seconds! Then power it up and listen!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  *puts M-stage in microwave and closes door...*
   
   - wait, WHAT?!


----------



## HamilcarBarca

Quote: 





the search never ends said:


> eally? I'm an electrical engineer, and I believe different, stop acting like your opinion is absolute. The only difference between a fact and an opinion is facts can be proven and disproven, and they are all the time. Science is based on measurements and logic. And it's not etched in stone. I respect your opinion, but please don't try to pound it in like it's the last word.


 
   
  You're correct. I stated an absolute when such absolutes are for suitable only for undergraduate texts.
   
  Here's what I should have said: Essentially none the claims (made here) of audible and gradual break-in for electronics such as the M-Stage appear to have any explanation other than psycho-acoustic effects.


----------



## mikeaj

Quote: 





hamilcarbarca said:


> You're correct. I stated an absolute when such absolutes are for suitable only for undergraduate texts.
> 
> Here's what I should have said: Essentially none the claims (made here) of audible and gradual break-in for electronics such as the M-Stage appear to have any explanation other than psycho-acoustic effects.


 
   
  Oh, there are plenty of alternate explanations.  I think you're talking about plausible ones.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Okay, we all know that some of the components, especially aluminum electrolytic capacitors, may change a bit over time (and non-trivially for the capacitors), and characteristics vary a little bit by temperature.  Arguing that these kinds of differences amount to much in terms of the output signal for a design like that... that's a tougher sell, particularly if you expect the differences in sound to follow the usage patterns and trends that are described by listeners.


----------



## Guess?

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Seriously, if you want to debate cables in this thread WRT the Matrix M, well, why not?
> Go for it!


 

 Just wanted to tell you guys that with quality cables the M-Stage sounds even better, that's it.


----------



## Diseree

Any difference between BCL and M-Stage?
  It seems that amplifier section is very similar.


----------



## the search never ends

Quote: 





hamilcarbarca said:


> You're correct. I stated an absolute when such absolutes are for suitable only for undergraduate texts.
> 
> Here's what I should have said: Essentially none the claims (made here) of audible and gradual break-in for electronics such as the M-Stage appear to have any explanation other than psycho-acoustic effects.


 
  Care to explain physics? Undergraduate? I'm 52 and have 3 degrees.  Ignoring your foolishness is my best bet.


----------



## HamilcarBarca

Quote: 





the search never ends said:


> I'm 52 and have 3 degrees.  Ignoring your foolishness is my best bet.


 
   
  That's a good idea. I'll do the same.


----------



## HamilcarBarca

.


----------



## Chris J

diseree said:


> Any difference between BCL and M-Stage?
> It seems that amplifier section is very similar.




After reading the last few posts I'm afraid to say anything!

Rumour has it that the real difference between the two units is the component quality. I fear adding anything more LOL!

BTW, I am 54, but I shall fight the impulse to say "Behave"!


----------



## Mad Max

And the M-Stage has two sets of analogue inputs with a switch at the front to change which input you listen to.  The USB version replaces an analogue input with USB digital input.


----------



## kamikazi

awesome review


----------



## HamilcarBarca

Quote: 





mad max said:


> And the M-Stage has two sets of analogue inputs with a switch at the front to change which input you listen to.  The USB version replaces an analogue input with USB digital input.


 
   
  I really like the dual-analog inputs and toggle switch combo. It makes it easy to switch sources from PC to BD player and back again.


----------



## itshot

Okay its is just my amp, or does the m-stage in general not separate vocals the best?

Its just that after A/B-ing with my T1's, I feel that the Fiio E9 does a better job at separating the vocals than the m-stage. I'm a little confused...


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





itshot said:


> Okay its is just my amp, or does the m-stage in general not separate vocals the best?
> Its just that after A/B-ing with my T1's, I feel that the Fiio E9 does a better job at separating the vocals than the m-stage. I'm a little confused...


 
   
  I know this doesn't really answer your question, but anyway............
   
  I think the M Stage is a better amp than my E17, but the difference is not drastic.
  For me, the M Stage has a bit more space, a bit more air.


----------



## beaver316

Just wanted to post and let you folks know that you'll be seeing me more often around these parts. My m-stage should be coming in this week 
   
  The talk of rca interconnects making a difference in sound has kind of bummed me a little. I really skimped on them and bought some really really inexpensive ones, these ones. I think i'll have to find some better ones, any recommendations? Preferably in europe.


----------



## Guess?

Quote: 





beaver316 said:


> The talk of rca interconnects making a difference in sound has kind of bummed me a little. I really skimped on them and bought some really really inexpensive ones, these ones. I think i'll have to find some better ones, any recommendations? Preferably in europe.


 
   
  hahah, they have just calmed down 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  Anyway, you can have a look at THESE, which are not bad. The biggest improvement that I and some other guys heard was with a DIY cable, it was about 40-50 euros only for the parts (the cable and rca plugs).


----------



## PanamaHat

Has anybody used this with the o-dac? I'm very curious about how well these two would pair


----------



## beaver316

Quote: 





panamahat said:


> Has anybody used this with the o-dac? I'm very curious about how well these two would pair


 
   
  I'll probably be able to tell you in a few weeks. I have both on order, but the ODAC will take a while since they don't have the rca version in stock atm.


----------



## Guess?

offtopic
  just noticed bender is wearing he-400 not lcd2 anymore... and bender doesn't SLEEP!?!


----------



## beaver316

Quote: 





guess? said:


> hahah, they have just calmed down
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Thanks for the link. Those look good, and not expensive at all.


----------



## beaver316

Quote: 





guess? said:


> offtopic
> just noticed bender is wearing he-400 not lcd2 anymore... and bender doesn't SLEEP!?!


 
   
  Yeah he's been expanding his collection recently, what with all the money he's been stealing


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





panamahat said:


> Has anybody used this with the o-dac? I'm very curious about how well these two would pair


 
   
  Yes, I have.  They sound fine.  DACs don't really influence the sound _signature_ all that much from my experience.


----------



## PanamaHat

> Yes, I have. They sound fine. DACs don't really influence the sound signature all that much from my experience.




Thanks Good to hear. So would upgrading from the e17 to the o-dac be worth it? I like the eq function of the Fiio but I'd consider upgrading if the o-dac is more resolving


----------



## PanamaHat

Does class-A biasing affect performance with lower impedence headphones ~ 40 ohms?


----------



## purrin

The Class A biasing in this situation pertains to the op-amp voltage gain section just before the transistor output buffers. In other words, it helps regardless of what is plugged into the amp.


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





panamahat said:


> Thanks Good to hear. So would upgrading from the e17 to the o-dac be worth it? I like the eq function of the Fiio but I'd consider upgrading if the o-dac is more resolving


 
   
  No.  I doubt you could hear a difference between them.  I've briefly compared it with my E10 and nothing stood out between them.
   
  I would stick with the E17.


----------



## Chris J

purrin said:


> The Class A biasing in this situation pertains to the op-amp voltage gain section just before the transistor output buffers. In other words, it helps regardless of what is plugged into the amp.




In plain olde english:

The Op Amp, whether or not it is Class A, does NOT drive the headphones directly.

There is a discrete transistor stage between the Op Amp and the headphone jack.
BTW, the discrete output stage is heavily biased into Class A, irregardless of the Op Amp.


----------



## Chris J

chicolom said:


> No.  I doubt you could hear a difference between them.  I've briefly compared it with my E10 and nothing stood out between them.
> 
> I would stick with the E17.




No!
You are very, very wrong!
The ODAC is The World's Greatest DAC! 
End of Discussion! :rolleyes:


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





chris j said:


> No!
> You are very, very wrong!
> The ODAC is The World's Greatest DAC!
> End of Discussion!


----------



## the search never ends

Quote: 





chris j said:


> No!
> You are very, very wrong!
> The ODAC is The World's Greatest DAC!
> End of Discussion!


 
  Lol, is this a honeymoon thing?


----------



## HaVoC-28

Quote: 





chris j said:


> No!
> You are very, very wrong!
> The ODAC is The World's Greatest DAC!
> End of Discussion!


 
   
  What next ? All well built DACs sound the same ? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (it's was i am tending to think now 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)
   
  The Violectric V800 (let's take this one as exemple) mesure better than ODAC (if i am not wrong) but it don't mean in any way that it's audibly better 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 , but if some one want to loan me a V800 i will gladly accept 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and give it a try .


----------



## PanamaHat

> What next ? All well built DACs sound the same ? (it's was i am tending to think now )




Oh boy. Wellll, I a/b compared my Fiio e17 with my buddies Decco 2 and heard very slight, if not negligible differences. So I don't think there's a need for a >$500 d/a converter. Prove me wrong >=D


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





chris j said:


> No!
> You are very, very wrong!
> The ODAC is The World's Greatest DAC!
> End of Discussion!


 
   
  It's supposed to be a joke!   
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




     
  Frankly it wouldn't surprise me in the least if the ODAC sounded about as good as the E17.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
   
  I suspect that FiiO may have an "Engineering Staff" to "design" DACs and Amps and stuff for them. And the ODAC has..............?
   
  BTW, if anyone wants to send me an Audiolab M-DAC or a Cambridge DAC Magic Plus for "research" purposes, I won't mind.


----------



## purrin

Someone should put up a website with a blind test of the E17 and ODAC, and conclude that there were no differences. And announce the E17 the winner because of its extra features and lower cost.


----------



## the search never ends

Quote: 





chris j said:


> It's supposed to be a joke!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  I took it as a joke!  In my opinion, the DACmagic (with upgraded power supply) is roughly equal to the MSII+ in sound, but has enough extra flexibility to warrant the higher price.
  I think the E17 is roughly equal to the audinst MX1 with a slightly better dac on the E17, the amps are more of a preference than one being better. All in my opinion of course.


----------



## Chris J

the search never ends said:


> I took it as a joke!  In my opinion, the DACmagic (with upgraded power supply) is roughly equal to the MSII+ in sound, but has enough extra flexibility to warrant the higher price.
> I think the E17 is roughly equal to the audinst MX1 with a slightly better dac on the E17, the amps are more of a preference than one being better. All in my opinion of course.




Hey, NP,

Thanks!

Personally, I prefer the sound of the M Stage Headphone amp over the E17, it sounds more open to my ears. More air.
Or maybe I am just hearing the air between my ears?


----------



## beaver316

Just received my M-stage. It's quite the beaut. But it's a brick right now since i don't have my dac, rca cable, or headphones


----------



## Guess?

Quote: 





beaver316 said:


> Just received my M-stage. It's quite the beaut.


 
  Welcome to the M-Stage club


----------



## beaver316

Quote: 





guess? said:


> Welcome to the M-Stage club


 
   
  Thanks! I'll have pics up tomorrow.


----------



## itshot

Wow... I just figured out that gain on my amp was turned onto its max setting. I was just about ready to give up on the m-stage as well.

It sounds SO much better now. Dampened T1's + M-stage =


----------



## HamilcarBarca

Quote: 





itshot said:


> Wow... I just figured out that gain on my amp was turned onto its max setting. I was just about ready to give up on the m-stage as well.
> It sounds SO much better now. Dampened T1's + M-stage =


 
   
  The gain labels on the bottom of my M-Stage are backwards. I didn't realize this until I tried to turn down the gain ... and it went up.


----------



## Chris J

itshot said:


> Wow... I just figured out that gain on my amp was turned onto its max setting. I was just about ready to give up on the m-stage as well.
> It sounds SO much better now. Dampened T1's + M-stage =




LOL!
Yeah, we've all done it!
Personally I am NOT a big fan of 20 dB of gain, I like 10 dB.


----------



## HamilcarBarca

Quote: 





chris j said:


> LOL!
> Yeah, we've all done it!
> Personally I am NOT a big fan of 20 dB of gain, I like 10 dB.


 
   
  That's what I want to use.
   
  Unfortunately, some of my five year-old DVD rips are barely audible except at the 18 dB setting.


----------



## Chris J

hamilcarbarca said:


> That's what I want to use.
> 
> Unfortunately, some of my five year-old DVD rips are barely audible except at the 18 dB setting.




Oddly enough, I don't mind the sound of 18 dB of gain in the M. But 20 dB..........eh!


----------



## hifimanrookie

```

```

Guys..i can confirm the mstage does well with the he500..on gain 10db! Never thought the matrix had it in him...mine is modded with the tamaudio mod opa627 class a.


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





chris j said:


> LOL!
> Yeah, we've all done it!


 
   
   
  A rite of passage as an M-stage owner is to mix up the gain switches.


----------



## beaver316

Just some pics of the amp, it's so dam sexy. I love the silver on black.


----------



## Chris J

What's up with the cute little yellow pillow? LoL


----------



## kazaakas

Am I such a quiet listener or something by having the amp on 10 'o clock at most at 0dB gain, I mean, I use it qith a Q701, which aren't the hardest cans to drive, but not the easiest either..


----------



## beaver316

Quote: 





chris j said:


> What's up with the cute little yellow pillow? LoL


 
   
  Haha that's my sister's room, it had better lighting than my room. Although i have nothing against cute little yellow pillows lol


----------



## chicolom

kazaakas said:


> Am I such a quiet listener or something by having the amp on 10 'o clock at most at 0dB gain, I mean, I use it qith a Q701, which aren't the hardest cans to drive, but not the easiest either..




Are you sure it's on 10dB and not 18dB? Those are the two that get mixed up.


----------



## hifimanrookie

chicolom said:


> Are you sure it's on 10dB and not 18dB? Those are the two that get mixed up.




I dont think its a mix up...i burned my new he500's with the mstage..and listned to it sometimes to check the differnce of the SQ during the burn-in..and i never ever had it over 2 o'clock with 10db gain.and my he500's are harder to drive..its one little tough cookie...i have the black version by the way. Is to be sold..got a better amp now..see my pics/avatar


----------



## Guess?

Quote: 





beaver316 said:


> Just some pics of the amp, it's so dam sexy. I love the silver on black.


 
   
  Nice pics! The zebra is great too


----------



## swmtnbiker

beaver316 said:


> Haha that's my sister's room, it had better lighting than my room. Although i have nothing against cute little yellow pillows lol




The pillows really tie the room together...


----------



## HaVoC-28

Quote: 





beaver316 said:


> Haha that's *my sister's room*, it had better lighting than my room. Although i have nothing against cute little yellow pillows lol


----------



## beaver316

Next time i take pics i think i should have the pillow in front and the amp in the background


----------



## hifimanrookie

beaver316 said:


> Next time i take pics i think i should have the pillow in front and the amp in the background




Maybe a fluffy teddy would make the pic perfect?


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





kazaakas said:


> Am I such a quiet listener or something by having the amp on 10 'o clock at most at 0dB gain, I mean, I use it qith a Q701, which aren't the hardest cans to drive, but not the easiest either..


 
   
  Try setting the switches to 18 dB or 20 dB gain.
  The volume should go WAY up.
  If the volume goes WAY down, you have the switches reversed and you have NOW set the gain to 0 dB.    Just like everyone else does when they first get a Matrix M!


----------



## the search never ends

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Try setting the switches to 18 dB or 20 dB gain.
> The volume should go WAY up.
> If the volume goes WAY down, you have the switches reversed and you have NOW set the gain to 0 dB.    Just like everyone else does when they first get a Matrix M!


 
  I can honestly say I didn't make that mistake, of course the thread might have had something to do with it.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





beaver316 said:


> Next time i take pics i think i should have the pillow in front and the amp in the background


 
   
  I can't wait!


----------



## HamilcarBarca

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Try setting the switches to 18 dB or 20 dB gain.
> The volume should go WAY up.
> If the volume goes WAY down, you have the switches reversed and you have NOW set the gain to 0 dB.    Just like everyone else does when they first get a Matrix M!


 
   
  That's what I did. I set the gain 0dB and listened to it. Then I tried the 20dB gain setting. They were reversed. Some owners have misinterpreted the DIP-switch labels on the bottom. In some cases, such as mine, the labels are exactly backwards.
   
  No harm, no foul. Just momentary frustration which I survived.


----------



## beaver316

I just remembered that i have a really old low quality dvd player so i hooked up my m-stage to it and it works! The dvd player doesn't even play any music CDs so im currently playing a copy of I Am A Legend haha, audio only no video. All i can say for now is that it sounds very nice  Im pretty sure the dac in this player is terrible though.
   
  The gains switches on the m-stage are reversed but that's ok. Im just trying to burn some mp3s to a DVD so i can test some music.


----------



## HamilcarBarca

Quote: 





beaver316 said:


> I just remembered that i have a really old low quality dvd player so i hooked up my m-stage to it and it works! The dvd player doesn't even play any music CDs so im currently playing a copy of I Am A Legend haha, audio only no video. All i can say for now is that it sounds very nice  Im pretty sure the dac in this player is terrible though.


 
   
  You're using the DAC in your DVD player. It's what produces the signal amplified by the M-Stage.
   
  I use one input channel on my M-Stage for my Blu-Ray player.


----------



## beaver316

Quote: 





hamilcarbarca said:


> You're using the DAC in your DVD player. It's what produces the signal amplified by the M-Stage.
> 
> I use one input channel on my M-Stage for my Blu-Ray player.


 
   
  Yes i know that, i may have not worded myself very clearly sorry. Yeah the DVD player is absolutely terrible so im sure the dac is too.
   
  I managed to burn some mp3s at 320 kbps to a dvd and wow my HD 280 pros have never sounded this good, really impressive. I should have my HE400s tomorrow so really looking forward to that now. But the dvd player will have to do until my odac arrives.
   
  edit: hmm it seems the music CDs i tried previously were flukes, the rest of my collection works fine. Im really shocked at how good this setup sounds, all thanks to the M-Stage


----------



## kazaakas

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Try setting the switches to 18 dB or 20 dB gain.
> The volume should go WAY up.
> If the volume goes WAY down, you have the switches reversed and you have NOW set the gain to 0 dB.    Just like everyone else does when they first get a Matrix M!


 
   
  No I actually had it right the first time, if I invert all the switches I can't even put it higher than 8 'o clock at +20dB! Whereas with unity gain I won't go higher than 10 'o clock.
   
  Imo the stickers arent wrong on the M-Stage, the switches are white and the white part of the schematic therefore indicates where the switch should be, not the black part!
   
  Seems I'm a quiet listener or something, and I was thinking I was one of those persons who had trouble finding the ultimate balance between safety and intensity in terms of volume


----------



## HamilcarBarca

Quote: 





kazaakas said:


> Imo the stickers arent wrong on the M-Stage, the switches are white and the white part of the schematic therefore indicates where the switch should be, not the black part!


 
   
  Using black for the switch position has been the standard at least since the 1980's. Back then, nearly every PC and ISA adapter card was configured with DIP switches.


----------



## Chris J

kazaakas said:


> No I actually had it right the first time, if I invert all the switches I can't even put it higher than 8 'o clock at +20dB! Whereas with unity gain I won't go higher than 10 'o clock.
> 
> Imo the stickers arent wrong on the M-Stage, the switches are white and the white part of the schematic therefore indicates where the switch should be, not the black part!
> 
> Seems I'm a quiet listener or something, and I was thinking I was one of those persons who had trouble finding the ultimate balance between safety and intensity in terms of volume




So much for my genius theory! LOL

Maybe your Soundblaster outputs a very high level signal?


----------



## otherlives

I dont get it, how do you mess up the gain?  When its "up" against the ON label, its all at 20, right?
   
   
   
   
  Anyway,  I want to start swapping op-amps.  I am using this with HD650's.  Anyone know of a few posts I can reference that comment on the general consensus of rolling which op-amps produce accentuates what sounds?  I'd like to warm up the mids a little and tighten up the bass if possible, without buying a tube amp.


----------



## HamilcarBarca

Quote: 





otherlives said:


> Anyway,  I want to start swapping op-amps.  I am using this with HD650's.  Anyone know of a few posts I can reference that comment on the general consensus of rolling which op-amps produce accentuates what sounds?  I'd like to warm up the mids a little and tighten up the bass if possible, without buying a tube amp.


 
   
  Many tube amps create a warmer sound.
   
  It's highly unlikely one will tighten up the bass on the HD 650. That's not the way tubes, amps, and headphones work.


----------



## Xymordos

I would say with the original opamps the m-Stage is already quite warm sounding for a solid state amp.


----------



## kazaakas

Quote: 





chris j said:


> So much for my genius theory! LOL
> Maybe your Soundblaster outputs a very high level signal?


 

 I suppose, it's known to have a pretty strong headphone out to avoid the need of an amp with semi-semi-demanding cans so to say, but I'm using the RCA outs..


----------



## George_63

I got my M-stage last Wednesday.It says v2.1 on the board.It came along with a power cord and EU adapter.



   
  I was pleased to see how well built it is.The blue operation led on the front panel is quite discrete when on and not as bright as many have complained.It seems that there has been some improvement.I have the AKG K701 which as you all know are quite power hungry despite their relatively  low impedance.My Xonar STX head-amp is powerfull enough to drive them up to a deafening level but it lacks musicality and warmth,so I got a JDSLabs Cmoy v2.0.2 to give it a try.I must admit that it sounded unbelievably great.So musical,transparent,airy and warm like I had never heard before.My problem was that I couldn't raise the volume to an enjoyable level because of severe clipping.It was a matter of current rarther than  voltage as I was using an external psu at 18V.Soldering a second TLE2426CPL virtual ground solved my problem and I managed to raise up the volume to an audibly acceptable level.Then,having read all of this thread  plus the Headfonia review I decided to go for the Matrix being half the price of my initial pick,the Heed Canamp.
  For the past 4 nights I have been listening to my favorite music(mostly jazz classical amd acoustic) playing 24-96/192 recordings ASIO Foobar >STX>Matrix>K701.Indeed it's a good amp and a real bargain for the money.I'm using the 10db gain and there is no backround hiss even when the knob reaches the 6 o'clock position.Music sounds quite clear and detailed.Highs come out clear yet not sibilant,Mids are a bit dark though and Lows well,I know it's the K701 but I was never a bass kick fan,so a 5db extra gain from the equilizer brings it in balance with the rest of the spectrum.It's not the bass quality,as it is nicely articulated and clear, but the quantity and I know that it's the phones' blame.
     To be honest,I expected a little more...It is not a complaint.I will say it again that it is a great amp for the money and I do know that many much more expensive gear sound worse.I should blame the Cmoy,for sounding as good as the Matrix at a cost of 4 times less!Amazing piece of equipment...
     As far as cabling  is concerned,using an Oehlbach NF1 showed no detectable improvement over the common 3.5mm-to-RCA IC provided with the Xonar.
     Now, about op-amp rolling, the only alternative I had for the time being since my LM4562 order will be here in a couple of weeks,was to use the OPA2227 of the Cmoy.Comparing it to the OPA2134 was not an easy task as they don't seem to have any profound differences.The 2134 has a slightly deeper bass,warm but not so well bodied mids.The 2227 on the other hand is a little more trnsparent and clear and that helps the mids which stand out more.It's as if it shifts the frequency spectrum towards higher values and the sound becomes less dark at the expence of some extra sibilance though.Since AKGs are bitchy with bass,and using some help from the equilizer seems inevitable in most cases,I decided to go for the 2227,at least until 4562 arrives.I will let you know about it when I get it.


----------



## hifimanrookie

george_63 said:


> I got my M-stage last Wednesday.It says v2.1 on the board.It came along with a power cord and EU adapter.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Try the class a/ opa627 mod from tamaudio.com..u will be surprised how the sound will improve..
And pity u have the 701..as u cant switch cables on the set..That would certainly make a change.


----------



## Chris J

I was pleased to see how well built it is.The blue operation led on the front panel is quite discrete when on and not as bright as many have complained.It seems that there has been some improvement.I have the AKG K701 which as you all know are quite power hungry despite their relatively  low impedance.My Xonar STX head-amp is powerfull enough to drive them up to a deafening level but it lacks musicality and warmth,so I got a JDSLabs Cmoy v2.0.2 to give it a try.I must admit that it sounded unbelievably great.So musical,transparent,airy and warm like I had never heard before.My problem was that I couldn't raise the volume to an enjoyable level because of severe clipping.It was a matter of current rarther than  voltage as I was using an external psu at 18V.Soldering a second TLE2426CPL virtual ground solved my problem and I managed to raise up the volume to an audibly acceptable level.Then,having read all of this thread  plus the Headfonia review I decided to go for the Matrix being half the price of my initial pick,the Heed Canamp.
For the past 4 nights I have been listening to my favorite music(mostly jazz classical amd acoustic) playing 24-96/192 recordings ASIO Foobar >STX>Matrix>K701.Indeed it's a good amp and a real bargain for the money.I'm using the 10db gain and there is no backround hiss even when the knob reaches the 6 o'clock position.Music sounds quite clear and detailed.Highs come out clear yet not sibilant,Mids are a bit dark though and Lows well,I know it's the K701 but I was never a bass kick fan,so a 5db extra gain from the equilizer brings it in balance with the rest of the spectrum.It's not the bass quality,as it is nicely articulated and clear but the quantity and I know that it's the phones' blame.
   To be honest,I expected a little more...It is not a complaint.I will say it again that it is a great amp for the money and I do know that many much more expensive gear sound worse.I should blame the Cmoy,for sounding as good as the Matrix at a cost of 4 times less!Amazing piece of equipment...
   As far as cabling  is concerned,using an Oehlbach NF1 showed no detectable improvement over the common 3.5mm-to-RCA IC provided with the Xonar.
   Now, about op-amp rolling, the only alternative I had for the time being since my LM4562 order will be here in a couple of weeks,was to use the OPA2227 of the Cmoy.Comparing it to the OPA2134 was not an easy task as they don't seem to have any profound differences.The 2134 has a slightly deeper bass,warm but not so well bodied mids.The 2227 on the other hand is a little more trnsparent and clear and that helps the mids which stand out more.It's as if it shifts the frequency spectrum towards higher values and the sound becomes less dark at the expence of some sibilance though.Since AKGs are bitchy with bass,and using some help from the equilizer seems inevitable in most cases,I decided to go for the 2227,at least until 4562 arrives.I will let you know about it when I get it.
[/quote]

Hi,
The LM4562 is a nice Op Amp but you will find the differences between Op Amps is very subtle.


----------



## George_63

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Hi,
> The LM4562 is a nice Op Amp but you will find the differences between Op Amps is very subtle.


 
_ _
_  I already have ,as it took me more than 30 times of switching the 2227 and 2134 to verify their differences_.
   
   
  Quote: 





hifimanrookie said:


> Try the class a/ opa627 mod from tamaudio.com..u will be surprised how the sound will improve..
> And pity u have the 701..as u cant switch cables on the set..That would certainly make a chang


 
   
  Some electronic engineers claim that class A biasing reduces the lifetime of the op-amps.Can anyone confirm that?


----------



## Chris J

george_63 said:


> _ _
> _  I already have ,as it took me more than 30 times of switching the 2227 and 2134 to verify their differences_.
> 
> 
> ...





I'm not surprised you had to swap the Op Amps again and again to hear the difference. LikeI said, real subtle, ain't it?

True, you are running the Op Amp a bit hotter, so the lifetime will be a bit shorter, but in actual practice, this is rather academic as the Op Amp will outlive the electrolytic capacitors.


----------



## clams

Quote: 





hamilcarbarca said:


> Many tube amps create a warmer sound.
> 
> It's highly unlikely one will tighten up the bass on the HD 650. That's not the way tubes, amps, and headphones work.


 
  That's just a generalization of tube amps. In the case of OTL amps like the Bottlehead Crack, the increased voltage output actually made the bass on the HD650 more controlled than the m-stage. I actually preferred the Crack over the matrix for that pair of headphones although its obviously personal preference.


----------



## HamilcarBarca

Quote: 





clams said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  It's an inherent characteristic of how tubes operate. If the tube audio sound isn't desired by the designer, it can be worked around. Nothing prevents the use of tubes in (say) an excellent Class A amp. Voltage doesn't make the "bass [...] more controlled", in theory or practice.
   
  You like the sound of the Crack better than the M-Stage. I like the sound of the O2 better than the M-Stage. I think we both got what we wanted. This is a good thing.


----------



## Chris J

clams said:


> That's just a generalization of tube amps. In the case of OTL amps like the Bottlehead Crack, the increased voltage output actually made the bass on the HD650 more controlled than the m-stage. I actually preferred the Crack over the matrix for that pair of headphones although its obviously personal preference.




No.

Voltage = volume.

If you are listening at the same volume, the two amps would be outputting the same volume.

Hey man, just sayin'


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





george_63 said:


> _..._
> Some electronic engineers claim that class A biasing reduces the lifetime of the op-amps.Can anyone confirm that?


 
   
  Probably because of the increased heat due to the class-A biasing?
  Plus a lot of opamps don't need class-A biasing anyway, and the change in sound is probably due to mildly increased stability - the class-A biasing also reduces HF oscillations to a small extent, I've read.  Still, it is better and simpler to add ceramic/film psu bypass caps right on or next to the opamp(s)' power pins instead for the improvement in stability and sound.  Preferably C0G/NP0 ceramics and polypropylene film caps with the ceramic cap being no more than 1/10th the capacitance of the film cap and yet being greater than or equal to 0.01 uF (10nF) in capacitance.
   
  Here I've got an OPA209 module with a 21nF ceramic and two MKP416 caps that add up to 241nF:
   

   
  Well, I also have a matched pair of 100.5-ohm resistors added in parallel to the 50-ohm output resistors after the opamps, but that creates instability with all of my opamps except OPA209 and AD8510 which improve in sound instead.


----------



## the search never ends

Quote: 





mad max said:


> Probably because of the increased heat due to the class-A biasing?
> Plus a lot of opamps don't need class-A biasing anyway, and the change in sound is probably due to mildly increased stability - the class-A biasing also reduces HF oscillations to a small extent, I've read.  Still, it is better and simpler to add ceramic/film psu bypass caps right on or next to the opamp(s)' power pins instead for the improvement in stability and sound.  Preferably C0G/NP0 ceramics and polypropylene film caps with the ceramic cap being no more than 1/10th the capacitance of the film cap and yet being greater than or equal to 0.01 uF (10nF) in capacitance.
> 
> Here I've got an OPA209 module with a 21nF ceramic and two MKP416 caps that add up to 241nF:
> ...


 
  Ok, seriously Max, did you take this picture?  I could never take a picture that well, too many nerves shot maybe, anyway, if you did take it, kudos bro.


----------



## Chris J

mad max said:


> Probably because of the increased heat due to the class-A biasing?
> Plus a lot of opamps don't need class-A biasing anyway, and the change in sound is probably due to mildly increased stability - the class-A biasing also reduces HF oscillations to a small extent, I've read.  Still, it is better and simpler to add ceramic/film psu bypass caps right on or next to the opamp(s)' power pins instead for the improvement in stability and sound.  Preferably C0G/NP0 ceramics and polypropylene film caps with the ceramic cap being no more than 1/10th the capacitance of the film cap and yet being greater than or equal to 0.01 uF (10nF) in capacitance.
> 
> Here I've got an OPA209 module with a 21nF ceramic and two MKP416 caps that add up to 241nF:
> ...




The hotter the Op Amp runs, the lower the lifetime will be.
The difference will not be very pronounced, but it is there.

Will Class A biasing reduce HF osciilations? I don't see how. Maybe someone can explain.

The Op Amp was designed without Class A biasing, I suspect we may be hearing more distortion with the Class A biasing, but can't confirm that.

Why did you add 100 Ohm resistors in parallel with the 50 Ohm resistors? What are you trying to improve? Remember, the current driving the headphones is actually derived from the discrete output transistors.


----------



## PanamaHat

Anyone here think the m-stage would be overkill for a Sennheiser HD558?


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





panamahat said:


> Anyone here think the m-stage would be overkill for a Sennheiser HD558?


 
   
  No!


----------



## HamilcarBarca

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  While I'd recommend the ODAC+O2 over the M-Stage -- I own both -- I agree.
   
  It's not overkill.


----------



## PanamaHat

> While I'd recommend the ODAC+O2 over the M-Stage -- I own both -- I agree.
> 
> It's not overkill


 
  Have you listened to the m-stage in class A with the opa627ap?


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





chris j said:


> The hotter the Op Amp runs, the lower the lifetime will be.
> The difference will not be very pronounced, but it is there.
> Will Class A biasing reduce HF osciilations? I don't see how. Maybe someone can explain.
> The Op Amp was designed without Class A biasing, I suspect we may be hearing more distortion with the Class A biasing, but can't confirm that.
> Why did you add 100 Ohm resistors in parallel with the 50 Ohm resistors? What are you trying to improve? Remember, the current driving the headphones is actually derived from the discrete output transistors.


 
   
  Lowers the resistance at that point to 33.3 ohms.  Higher means better stability for some opamps but at the expense of sound quality.  Got it from tangentsoft.
  One guy did it for AD797 and was impressed with the change in sound, although that finicky chip still hates this amp with that tweak, lol!
   
  Well, ask diyaudio about the oscillations.  I read there that it reduces them _a little bit._  It can't be anywhere near as effective as psu bypassing for most opamps.


----------



## HamilcarBarca

Quote: 





panamahat said:


> > While I'd recommend the ODAC+O2 over the M-Stage -- I own both -- I agree.
> >
> > It's not overkill
> 
> ...


 
   
  I bought the Class-A mod and some Burr-Brown IC because at the time it seemed like a good idea. They're still stuck in the styrofoam Tam audio uses for shipping. That's where they'll stay.
   
  Since the time I ordered, I've studied the amplifier design and amps' interactions with headphones, I realized DAC rolling just wasn't for me. I want a transparent amplifier, and I'll fool around with an EQ if I want altered sound. So, I'd just as soon have my extra $30 or $40 back.
   
  The M-Stage isn't as faithful to its input as the O2, but I still like it a lot. If the ODAC+O2 combo had dual, switchable, analog inputs, I'd buy another to replace the M-Stage.


----------



## hifimanrookie

​


panamahat said:


> Anyone here think the m-stage would be overkill for a Sennheiser HD558?



I tried my mstage with at least 15 phones over the last year i owned her....from 100 euro inear phones to my now favorite he500 that owe...and it did perfectly with all of them..its one of all trades.....its really a goliath in soundquality for the price..and its cheap..check the second hards section.if a new one is to expensive for ya...oh wait..i myself have one on sale a just 1 year old cutie modded with opa627 and class a biassed..in immaculate condition..not 1 scratch on it..  check my pics..am looking for a good home for my very loved and trustworthy little one...because i now got my hands on a modded 17kg heavy dark and sexy beast..which imo sounds better then any amp i heared on any phone...


----------



## anoxy

Would it be pointless/overkill to buy the M-Stage, then use my NFB 12.1 as its DAC?


----------



## hifimanrookie

​


panamahat said:


> Have you listened to the m-stage in class A with the opa627ap?




I did! And it sounds more open..less raw..more velvetly..more controlled..less agressive..i loved it very much with my he300,he400(sold) and with my last aquisition the difficult to drive he500, i tried it with hd650, hd700, some grados, even a dt990 and my mmx300, q-jays (sold) in-ears,my westone um3x though didnt like it ..but then again it could do with my source..the hm602 on line out..as the westone directly on my hm602 sounded like the westones were 50 euro buds...:mad: but on the contrary my westones paired heavenly directly from my much loved cowon D2 
Tip: give the opa627 its time to burn in..for my ears it took a while to let the new mod open up..just after a few days playing non stop it sounded on his best..to my ears imho.


----------



## hifimanrookie

​


anoxy said:


> Would it be pointless/overkill to buy the M-Stage, then use my NFB 12.1 as its DAC?



I dont think so..at least if u use a good source also..anyway..i never used a dac..no need to..i use the line out of my player..so for an indepth advice if a good dac is overkill or not...am sure some other person here can advice u.


----------



## PanamaHat

> I tried my mstage with at least 15 phones over the last year i owned her....from 100 euro inear phones to my now favorite he500 that owe...and it did perfectly with all of them..its one of all trades.....its really a goliath in soundquality for the price..and its cheap..check the second hards section.if a new one is to expensive for ya...oh wait..i myself have one on sale a just 1 year old cutie modded with opa627 and class a biassed..in immaculate condition..not 1 scratch on it.. check my pics..am looking for a good home for my very loved and trustworthy little one...because i now got my hands on a modded 17kg heavy dark and sexy beast..which imo sounds better then any amp i heared on any phone...




Where's your ad?


----------



## hifimanrookie

panamahat said:


> Where's your ad?




Oops..didnt put it online yet..if the buyer want i will include a custommade ampcity silverwire adapter cable with on one side 1/8 and other side double tulips to connect a mp3 playerbdirectly by line-out to the matrix..i paid 100UK pounds for it..but for a total of 200 euros, thats 220usd, u can get them both. For pics see my pics on my profile...its the silvercable behind the matrix.


----------



## Viciel

Hi guys, this is my first time buying an amp, which is the m-stage! All seems solid and cool and awesome! just one problem though....

..... I don't know how to plug it in to my xonar d2x...

Should it be using the spdif out? The red and white rca cable? It doesn't give anything beside static sound to my headphone...

Any help is appreciated


----------



## Calypso

Quote: 





viciel said:


> ..... I don't know how to plug it in to my xonar d2x...


 
  The matrix needs an analog signal. You will probably have to use the _*front*_ or *side* jack on your xonar d2x via a mini jack to rca convertercable. Try reading the manual to see which output to use for a stereo signal.
   
_*I/O Ports:     Analog Output Jack:   *3.50mm mini jack *4 (Front/Side/Center-Subwoofer/Back) _


----------



## hifimanrookie

viciel said:


> Hi guys, this is my first time buying an amp, which is the m-stage! All seems solid and cool and awesome! just one problem though....
> ..... I don't know how to plug it in to my xonar d2x...
> Should it be using the spdif out? The red and white rca cable? It doesn't give anything beside static sound to my headphone...
> Any help is appreciated



Check my pics..u just need an adapter cable as on my pics behind the matrix..so a 1/8 connector to double tulip (rca)..for example see my pics..my hm602 is same as xonar..a hesdphone connection.
Good luck


----------



## Viciel

Quote: 





calypso said:


> The matrix needs an analog signal. You will probably have to use the _*front*_ or *side* jack on your xonar d2x via a mini jack to rca convertercable. Try reading the manual to see which output to use for a stereo signal.
> 
> _*I/O Ports:     Analog Output Jack:   *3.50mm mini jack *4 (Front/Side/Center-Subwoofer/Back) _


 
   
  Quote: 





hifimanrookie said:


> Check my pics..u just need an adapter cable as on my pics behind the matrix..so a 1/8 connector to double tulip (rca)..for example see my pics..my hm602 is same as xonar..a hesdphone connection.
> Good luck


 
  yeah as i expected thanx a lot guys!
  now i need to wait two days before i can waltz into shop and buy one, seems eargasm need to wait


----------



## hifimanrookie

viciel said:


> yeah as i expected thanx a lot guys!
> now i need to wait two days before i can waltz into shop and buy one, seems eargasm need to wait



About ur new to buy adaptercable..try to buy a good one. Not ur standard pc adapter cable..Or check toxic cables in uk or double helix cables in usa...or a good audio shop.
And..let the ur new little baby burn in properly..mine took a few days especially with the new opa627 mod i bought.
Another tip..the little rubber thingies under the amp...i had to replace almost all of them as they tend to get loose and lost...they are glued with a very bad glue..so be carefull when u take ur amp around in ur laptop bag(as i did..lolz)..or buy new dampening feet for it..in the shop ur going to buy ur cable in.u can buy some not to expensive.and better feet always helps in soundquality..and in my opinion it looks better with big round feet then the eenie meenie thingies they call feet... 

Have fun with ur new amp..u willl love her..i did! Mine is regretfully on sale now because of the tube beast i bought now and is now not used anymore..


----------



## PanamaHat

Probably a redundant question but I'm quite anal with stuff like this. Is the M-stage from tamaudio (no mods) different in any way from the one directly from MatrixElectronics?


----------



## hifimanrookie

panamahat said:


> Probably a redundant question but I'm quite anal with stuff like this. Is the M-stage from tamaudio (no mods) different in any way from the one directly from MatrixElectronics?



As far i know its not same amp..but am not sure..mine came from tamaudio..check google..am sure u will find ur answer

I got the opa627 also from tamaudio..and last i checked they sell a already modded mstage ready to go..


----------



## PanamaHat

Quote: 





hifimanrookie said:


> As far i know its not same amp..but am not sure..mine came from tamaudio..check google..am sure u will find ur answer
> I got the opa627 also from tamaudio..and last i checked they sell a already modded mstage ready to go..


 
  Hardly any info on it lol. I doubt the internals are different though. Does the 2012 version have the side slats or not?


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





anoxy said:


> Would it be pointless/overkill to buy the M-Stage, then use my NFB 12.1 as its DAC?


 
   
  Nah.  Unless you don't plan on upgrading your DAC later.


----------



## hifimanrookie

​


panamahat said:


> Hardly any info on it lol. I doubt the internals are different though. Does the 2012 version have the side slats or not?



Yep new model has the cooling openings on the sides.and a new transformator...but..some say the older model..like my 2011 version..has a better soundsignature..i dont know by experience so i cant help u with that...as i only have this one since okt 2011..check this tread concerning tamaudio and matrix electronics:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/475618/matrix-m-stage-amp-review-simple-cheap-and-excellent/3045

Oh yeah..did i tell ya i have mine on sale?


----------



## PanamaHat

Quote: 





hifimanrookie said:


> Yep new model has the cooling openings on the sides.and a new transformator...but..some say the older model..like my 2011 version..has a better soundsignature..i dont know by experience so i cant help u with that...as i only have this one since okt 2011..check this tread concerning tamaudio and matrix electronics:
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/475618/matrix-m-stage-amp-review-simple-cheap-and-excellent/3045
> Oh yeah..did i tell ya i have mine on sale?


 
  Thanks. I'm getting a pretty good deal on one from Matrix Electronics


----------



## beaver316

Quote: 





panamahat said:


> Thanks. I'm getting a pretty good deal on one from Matrix Electronics


 
   
  Yeah i bought from them too. I couldn't be happier. I feel i got a great price, plus free DHL shipping (really fast), plus they offered to mark the package as low cost so i didn't have to pay any custom or import fees.


----------



## hifimanrookie

panamahat said:


> Thanks. I'm getting a pretty good deal on one from Matrix Electronics



Good..i dont think u wont regret buying a mstrix mstage as its one heck of an amp..a goliath in disquise soundwise..but if u check the reviews u will see what i mean..


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





panamahat said:


> Probably a redundant question but I'm quite anal with stuff like this. Is the M-stage from tamaudio (no mods) different in any way from the one directly from MatrixElectronics?


 
   
  Matrix's official site is http://www.matrix-digi.com/
   
  I don't know how "MatrixElectronics" is affiliated, but Tam Audio is legit (they've been selling m-stages for a long time) and looks cheaper to me.  They also seem to have more of the latest up to date products there, like the M-Stage standalone DAC and the new mini dac/amp.


----------



## hifimanrookie

chicolom said:


> Matrix's official site is http://www.matrix-digi.com/
> 
> I don't know how "MatrixElectronics" is affiliated, but Tam Audio is legit (they've been selling m-stages for a long time) and looks cheaper to me.  They also seem to have more of the latest up to date products there, like the M-Stage standalone DAC and the new mini dac/amp.



And already modded ready to go m-stages..


----------



## kazaakas

MatrixElectronics.net isn't the official retailer by any means, I did order there though, and everything went fine, support was good. Site however is kinda shady and my order number was something like 70, which I thought was a bit weird. They do indeed declare their parcels as low value to avoid customs costs, not that it helped for me, since the dutch customs like to **** me in the ass at any opportunity given and I still had to pay €30 extra.


----------



## hifimanrookie

kazaakas said:


> MatrixElectronics.net isn't the official retailer by any means, I did order there though, and everything went fine, support was good. Site however is kinda shady and my order number was something like 70, which I thought was a bit weird. They do indeed declare their parcels as low value to avoid customs costs, not that it helped for me, since the dutch customs like to **** me in the ass at any opportunity given and I still had to pay €30 extra.



Yeah i know what u mean..for my headphone cable dutch customs let me pay 120 euro extra.. I think it has to to with importing from usa..as i got thingies from china and i didnt pay a cent..


----------



## George_63

Quote: 





viciel said:


> yeah as i expected thanx a lot guys!
> now i need to wait two days before i can waltz into shop and buy one, seems eargasm need to wait


 

 Your card comes with 4 3.5mm stereo to RCA(red&white) cables.Plug the 3.5mm jack to the front out (green lit,3rd from the right) and the RCAs in one of the matrix's inputs and you're ok.Buying an expensive IC won't make any audible difference


----------



## hifimanrookie

george_63 said:


> Your card comes with 4 3.5mm stereo to RCA(red&white) cables.Plug the 3.5mm jack to the front out (green lit,3rd from the right) and the RCAs in one of the matrix's inputs and you're ok.Buying an expensive IC won't make any audible difference




Did u try that out urself..or u just say that by hearsay?


----------



## kazaakas

Quote: 





hifimanrookie said:


> Yeah i know what u mean..for my headphone cable dutch customs let me pay 120 euro extra.. I think it has to to with importing from usa..as i got thingies from china and i didnt pay a cent..


 
   
  Funny thing is it was from china...
  But dude, 120 euro's extra for a cable? I would barely pay such an amount for a cable alone. You must've been pissed!


----------



## hifimanrookie

kazaakas said:


> Funny thing is it was from china...
> But dude, 120 euro's extra for a cable? I would barely pay such an amount for the cable alone. You must've been pissed!



I was out of my mind! And i had to pay it when they delivered...and the sender did put a very low value on the invoice!


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





hifimanrookie said:


> Did u try that out urself..or u just say that by hearsay?


 
   
  Hearsay, of course.


----------



## Apo0th3karY

Shot in the dark here. To the OP. You mentioned you used this amp to pre-amp your tower speakers?
  
  I've never used an amp before, and I'm one for my loudspeaker home set up rather than heaphones at home. However, I'm not satisfied with my current sound from my little basement DJ set up I got going on here:

 Acer laptop > Traktor 2.6 (DJ software) playing FLAC/wav/320CBR > Traktor S4 (DJ controller w/ built in soundcard) > Fostex pm0.4 monitors/Fostex pmSubn

 Would this amp bypass the soundcard in my Traktor S4, or enhance the signature that's already coming from it? (it's pretty coloured along the mid bass, i find)


----------



## George_63

Quote: 





hifimanrookie said:


> Did u try that out urself..or u just say that by hearsay?


 

 If you are asking about the RCAs then yes I have tried it myself.In fact I still have both connected to the matrix as input 1 and 2.Switching between the one that came with my STX and a more expensive one, made no difference, at least nothing worth the extra $50.Don't know if that applies for >200$ cables but I think ,and please correct me if I'm wrong, substantial differences become apparent when you deal with much more expensive hi-end gear and not a $250 head-amp.Besides,if you read the reviews of the XONAR family cards you will find out that RMAA tests surprisingly peformed ,if not better,equally good with the supplied ''low-end'' cables something wich I think supports my listening impressions concerning the ASUS cards.My comments regarded the specific XONAR-MATRIX setup and nothing further than that.


----------



## George_63

Quote: 





mad max said:


> Hearsay, of course.


 

 Irony suits you...Mr ''off course''...


----------



## svoboda123

Can someone please confirm for me that the pre-outs are not muted when headphones are inserted?  Isn't this a problem for anyone who wants to use it as both?  I mean, speaker sound reaching (often open) headphones and no ability to quiet speakers, such as in an office or late at night?


----------



## Viciel

at last i buy my rca adapter! but something weird happen... how come the volume is louder without the m-stage? did i do something wrong? +.+


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





svoboda123 said:


> Can someone please confirm for me that the pre-outs are not muted when headphones are inserted?  Isn't this a problem for anyone who wants to use it as both?  I mean, speaker sound reaching (often open) headphones and no ability to quiet speakers, such as in an office or late at night?


 
   
  The preamp output is never muted on the m-stage.
  You will have to unplug your headphones or turn off your speakers to use one or the other at a time.


----------



## svoboda123

Thanks.  A shame- with phones and desktop powered speakers/sub (seemingly a common use) this was a really poor design choice.  Off the consideration list for me as way too inconvenient to either unplug or power-off (switches at backs) at every transition between phones/speakers.


----------



## kazaakas

Quote: 





mad max said:


> The preamp output is never muted on the m-stage.
> You will have to unplug your headphones or turn off your speakers to use one or the other at a time.


 
  Allright that's it, my M-Stage pre-amp outs are connected to some ****ty $50 speakers and tommorow I'll be recording how these get muted instantly when I plug something into the headphone out with a super ****ty kodak camera with a super ****ty mic so you guys will finally believe me...


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





kazaakas said:


> Allright that's it, my M-Stage pre-amp outs are connected to some ****ty $50 speakers and tommorow I'll be recording how these get muted instantly when I plug something into the headphone out with a super ****ty kodak camera with a super ****ty mic so you guys will finally believe me...


 
   
  The ****ier the better.


----------



## JosephsART

Quote: 





mad max said:


> The preamp output is never muted on the m-stage.
> You will have to unplug your headphones or turn off your speakers to use one or the other at a time.


 
   
  If headphones are plugged in, the preamp output can not be heard.
   
  If headphones are not plugged in, the preamp output can be heard.
   
  This is what my M-Stage does anyway.


----------



## Chris J

kazaakas said:


> Allright that's it, my M-Stage pre-amp outs are connected to some ****ty $50 speakers and tommorow I'll be recording how these get muted instantly when I plug something into the headphone out with a super ****ty kodak camera with a super ****ty mic so you guys will finally believe me...






Sorry, I can't think of a good &$@%ing response! LOL!


----------



## thecansmancan

Quote: 





projectdenz said:


> The Matrix M-Stage pairs well with my HD580/600 and should have way more than enough power for it. I have it on the +10dB gain switch and I never need to push the volume past half-way.


 
  sounds great. I assume it make for one insanely balanced set up. Mind if i ask what dac you paired it with?


----------



## fuzzybaffy

What is the general concensus of the DAC portion of the Matrix M-Stage USB version? How would it compare to something like, let's say, a higher-end sound card such as the HT Claro Halo?
   
  I ask because I've read that the SnR of the DAC in the M-Stage USB is only around 96db, whereas something like the HT Claro Halo, has an SnR of around 120db. Does the difference in SnR make any tangible differences in sound quality? Especially with the USB version of the M-Stage?
   
  Also, what is the overall sound of the M-Stage as whole, using both the AMP and DAC? I've read that it is a little warm, and since I'm considering a Sennheiser HD-650, which is also considered a little warm, would the M-Stage USB paired with the HD-650 have an overly colored sound?
   
  Please let me know!


----------



## Guess?

Quote: 





fuzzybaffy said:


> What is the general concensus of the DAC portion of the Matrix M-Stage USB version? How would it compare to something like, let's say, a higher-end sound card such as the HT Claro Halo?
> 
> I ask because I've read that the SnR of the DAC in the M-Stage USB is only around 96db, whereas something like the HT Claro Halo, has an SnR of around 120db. Does the difference in SnR make any tangible differences in sound quality? Especially with the USB version of the M-Stage?


 
   
  You can have a look at this.


----------



## fuzzybaffy

Quote: 





guess? said:


> You can have a look at this.


 
   
  Thank you. The OP says the HRT Streamer II is a better DAC, than the one used in the M-Stage USB. But I've also read the ODAC is a better DAC than the HRT Streamer II.
   
  So, if I were to compare the M-Stage USB with the O2 + ODAC combination, and if the ODAC is a better DAC than the one used in the M-Stage USB, would it be safe to say, on the other hand, that the M-Stage is a better amp than the O2? How do the amps compare?
   
  I've also read that AMPs are more important than DACs, so would it be safe to say that the M-Stage USB, overall, will be better, than the O2 + ODAC combination (if indeed the M-Stage is a better amp than the O2), because amps are more important?


----------



## ProjectDenz

Quote: 





thecansmancan said:


> sounds great. I assume it make for one insanely balanced set up. Mind if i ask what dac you paired it with?


 
   
  Asus ST.


----------



## thecansmancan

So i have a question about upgrading the m stage (yeah, i know, i dont even have it and im already trying to upgrade but hey...) . Now i found an article on headfonia about changing out the op amp. Now i have no way to solder or anything like that BUT they recommended this for those of us DIY impared. So, I'm curious what all would this take? Can i just unplug the old op amp and just stick the new modded one in place? Or do i need to do something else? thanks in advance.


----------



## hifimanrookie

thecansmancan said:


> So i have a question about upgrading the m stage (yeah, i know, i dont even have it and im already trying to upgrade but hey...) . Now i found an article on headfonia about changing out the op amp. Now i have no way to solder or anything like that BUT they recommended this for those of us DIY impared. So, I'm curious what all would this take? Can i just unplug the old op amp and just stick the new modded one in place? Or do i need to do something else? thanks in advance.




Yup its not to hard..just find the old opamp..plug it out (use anti static gloves or something) and put the old one next to ur amp..so u know how to put the new one in  ..and then allign the new one correctly ( there is a point orn something to help u allign it correctly) and then carefulle plug it in..done . Its pretty easy..no solderering needed..just patience..and then..dont forget..burn the opamp in as if u had a new amp  have fun listening!


----------



## Guess?

Quote: 





thecansmancan said:


> So i have a question about upgrading the m stage (yeah, i know, i dont even have it and im already trying to upgrade but hey...) . Now i found an article on headfonia about changing out the op amp. Now i have no way to solder or anything like that BUT they recommended this for those of us DIY impared. So, I'm curious what all would this take? Can i just unplug the old op amp and just stick the new modded one in place? Or do i need to do something else? thanks in advance.


 
   


 It's pretty easy as hifimanrookie said, you can watch this:


----------



## Chris J

thecansmancan said:


> So i have a question about upgrading the m stage (yeah, i know, i dont even have it and im already trying to upgrade but hey...) . Now i found an article on headfonia about changing out the op amp. Now i have no way to solder or anything like that BUT they recommended this for those of us DIY impared. So, I'm curious what all would this take? Can i just unplug the old op amp and just stick the new modded one in place? Or do i need to do something else? thanks in advance.




Don't expect a massive change in sound!
The Matrix will still sound like a Matrix M Stage!


----------



## hifimanrookie

chris j said:


> Don't expect a massive change in sound!
> The Matrix will still sound like a Matrix M Stage!



I agree with that..but it makes the little things just a little bit better with this mod..to my ears anyway..but then again..the sound the mstage gives is special for the money it costs


----------



## thecansmancan

Awesome, thanks everyone. Seems like that one is so simple not even i can mess it up. Haha. I'll go ahead and order it and we'll see how it goes. Thanks again.


----------



## fuzzybaffy

Anyone wanna answer my question on the M-Stage/O2 + ODAC comparison? =(


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





fuzzybaffy said:


> Thank you. The OP says the HRT Streamer II is a better DAC, than the one used in the M-Stage USB. But I've also read the ODAC is a better DAC than the HRT Streamer II.
> 
> So, if I were to compare the M-Stage USB with the O2 + ODAC combination, and if the ODAC is a better DAC than the one used in the M-Stage USB, would it be safe to say, on the other hand, that the M-Stage is a better amp than the O2? How do the amps compare?
> 
> I've also read that AMPs are more important than DACs, so would it be safe to say that the M-Stage USB, overall, will be better, than the O2 + ODAC combination (if indeed the M-Stage is a better amp than the O2), because amps are more important?


 
   
  The HRT and ODAC are about on par with each other IMO, but the M-stage built-in DAC has a smaller soundstage than either of them. 
   
  I don't know if the M-stage AMP is better than the O2, but I think the M-stage built in DAC will bottleneck the sound a bit if you just use the M-stage USB.  Therefore I would assume the O2 + ODAC would probably be better overall for the price.


----------



## hifimanrookie

chicolom said:


> The HRT and ODAC are about on par with each other IMO, but the M-stage built-in DAC has a smaller soundstage than either of them.
> 
> I don't know if the M-stage AMP is better than the O2, but I think the M-stage built in DAC will bottleneck the sound a bit if you just use the M-stage USB.  Therefore I would assume the O2 + ODAC would probably be better overall for the price.



I didnt have the usb model and i never needed it as dac..only as a amp..and solily as a amp..and as that it excells imho...but its possible they took some shortcuts on the usb/dac part..and concentrated on the amp part and took the rest as a nice extra..like the feet..i lost those all the time..low budget feet!..as otherwise the price would be at least doubled.. I think matrix has a dedicated dac also..so mstage+ dac would be fair comparision to the o2 and odac..but as i said i never heard the o2...as i didnt need to..as the mstage gave me all i needed.


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





hifimanrookie said:


> I didnt have the usb model and i never needed it as dac..only as a amp..and solily as a amp..and as that it excells imho...but its possible they took some shortcuts on the usb/dac part..and concentrated on the amp part and took the rest as a nice extra..like the feet..i lost those all the time..low budget feet!..as otherwise the price would be at least doubled.. I think matrix has a dedicated dac also..so mstage+ dac would be fair comparision to the o2 and odac..but as i said i never heard the o2...as i didnt need to..as the mstage gave me all i needed.


 
   
   
  Well the M-stage USB DAC only costs ~$30, while the ODAC costs $100 for the PCB or $150 for the assembled DAC in case. 
   
  I have no idea about how the full size standalone M-stage DAC is.


----------



## fuzzybaffy

Edit: Nevermind!


----------



## Hoofbyte

Hello everyone! 
   
  So six days ago i became a happy owner of a Matrix M-stage, bought it from TamAudio.
   
  When i turn it on today and plug my headphones in i get a loud hum in both channels, it was fine last night.
  I remember reading in this forum that the bottom screw might need some tighteing so i undid it a few times and tightened it back but the problem still remains.
   
  So i opened it up to see if i could locate the problem, and the thing that i find disturbing is that the righthand capacitor is bulging.. A quick google later and im quite certain the capacitor is my problem.
   
   
  http://i50.tinypic.com/wvr8qp.jpg
   
  what do u think?


----------



## GaToMaLaCo

Don´t use the amp anymore (could be harmful) and RMA the M-Stage ASAP!


----------



## hifimanrookie

Quote: 





gatomalaco said:


> Don´t use the amp anymore (could be harmful) and RMA the M-Stage ASAP!


 
  yeah i agree..dont mess with it..best action would be contacting tamaudio with ur problem and ask whats best action..but why did u open it anyway...? it can void ur warranty!
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 in my eyes u certainly have a faulty model! best way is contacting tamaudio as i just said.and ask for a RMA...and let it shipped back for a repair or exchange for another...good luck with it.


----------



## GaToMaLaCo

Quote: 





hifimanrookie said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  No chance to void warranty because Tamaudio sells opamps that need to be installed by opening the top cover. 
   
   
  Please post more pictures if you can.


----------



## hifimanrookie

gatomalaco said:


> No chance to void warranty because Tamaudio sells opamps that need to be installed by opening the top cover.
> 
> 
> Please post more pictures if you can.



I know he does..i bought one..BUT..i remember to order a tuning part for my car at the dealer..and they said allthough they sell it and its topquality..its still my own risk if i install it myself and it breaks down......i know a couple of guys who think are smart and with their mods destroyed couple of nice amps...so if the Opamp upgrade goes bad u still have warranty?thats weird! Oh well..as long u didnt mess up the screws they cant see its opened anyway..so u must have warranty..good luck.


----------



## Hoofbyte

I am well aware that i might have void my warranty by opening it up to look at it. When i buy something from China i know warranty is not guaranteed.
   
  I have sent a mail to Tam to hear what he says.
   
  I only have my mobile phone as camera so pics will be ****ty, anything in particular i should take pics of?
   
   
  Quote: 





gatomalaco said:


> No chance to void warranty because Tamaudio sells opamps that need to be installed by opening the top cover.
> 
> 
> Please post more pictures if you can.


----------



## George_63

Got my LM4562 order from Canada today. The original OPA2134 had been substituted by OPA2227,which I ''borrowed'' from my JDSLabs Cmoy ,as it sounded better. Reading all those praising comments on LM4562 made me quite impatient to finding out how it sounds compared to the 2227.My test has just finished and I've decided that OPA2227 is a keeper....It wasn't an easy task as they both sounded almost identical.I merely verified Chris J's words saying that opamp switching doesn't give spectacular results.True,as the differences were more subtle than the ones between 2134 and 2227.What came as a surprise though was the fact that 2227 presented a better bass than 4562.Some might disagree with this but that's the impession I was left with.The 2227 showed a slightly increased bass ,not much but enough to make it sound better outlined and articulated.They both sound open and detailed with 4562 being a little bit more neutral.The mids of 2227 are a bit warmer, closer to my taste and and that also helped my decision.I know that hearing is subjective and not everyone in this forum owns the same setup (mine is XONAR STX>MATRIX>AKG K701) but it seems that OPA2227 suits mine better than LM4562 which is a great opamp indeed.I'm writing these words just to let you know that OPA2227 is worth trying with the Matrix.
 Next step is to try the A-class biasing with 3.9K and 3.3K resistors, as soon as I get my e-bay order of DIP-8 sockets and after that probably an OPA627 A-Class try out.


----------



## Chris J

george_63 said:


> Got my LM4562 order from Canada today. The original OPA2134 had been substituted by OPA2227,which I ''borrowed'' from my JDSLabs Cmoy ,as it sounded better. Reading all those praising comments on LM4562 made me quite impatient to finding out how it sounds compared to the 2227.My test has just finished and I've decided that OPA2227 is a keeper....It wasn't an easy task as they both sounded almost identical.I merely verified Chris J's words saying that opamp switching doesn't give spectacular results.True,as the differences were more subtle than the ones between 2134 and 2227.What came as a surprise though was the fact that 2227 presented a better bass than 4562.Some might disagree with this but that's the impession I was left with.The 2227 showed a slightly increased bass ,not much but enough to make it sound better outlined and articulated.They both sound open and detailed with 4562 being a little bit more neutral.The mids of 2227 are a bit warmer, closer to my taste and and that also helped my decision.I know that hearing is subjective and not everyone in this forum owns the same setup (mine is XONAR STX>MATRIX>AKG K701) but it seems that OPA2227 suits mine better than LM4562 which is a great opamp indeed.I'm writing these words just to let you know that OPA2227 is worth trying with the Matrix.
> Next step is to try the A-class biasing with 3.9K and 3.3K resistors, as soon as I get my e-bay order of DIP-8 sockets and after that probably an OPA627 A-Class try out.




Oh you bugger!
Now I gotta try the OPA2227! LOL!

Hey George, thanks for the comments!


----------



## George_63

chris j said:


> Oh you bugger!
> Now I gotta try the OPA2227! LOL!
> Hey George, thanks for the comments!





The OPA2227P which is the DIP-8 version costs about $7-8 on e-bay.If you have AKGs you won't regret spending the money.


----------



## Chris J

george_63 said:


> The OPA2227P which is the DIP-8 version costs about $7-8 on e-bay.If you have AKGs you won't regret spending the money.




Hey, thanks for the tip!
I know it doesn't make much difference, but for $7-8 I gotta try one!


----------



## putente

Quote: 





george_63 said:


> The OPA2227P which is the DIP-8 version costs about $7-8 on e-bay.


 
   
   
  Can those opamp eBay sellers from China be trusted? I mean, the opamps they sell are original?


----------



## Chris J

putente said:


> Can those opamp eBay sellers from China be trusted? I mean, the opamps they sell are original?




Hmmmm, maybe I'll try Newark or Future Electronics!


----------



## putente

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Hmmmm, maybe I'll try Newark or Future Electronics!


 
   
   
  Well, I'm also after a pair of OP2227PA, and I found them on eBay from a seller in China very cheap. Maybe too cheap...


----------



## George_63

Always buy from trusted-awarded sellers so that even if the products are not genuine,returns or refunds are 100% guaranteed.The truth is that PayPal never let me down in this matter and I got all my money back whenever I opened a case.It takes sometime but compensation is guaranteed.Chris is right in suggesting other sellers like Newark since e-bay has generally higher prices in opamps.The British e-bay for example sells OPA2227 for 12-19 pounds or $18-30 which is too expensive IMO.
Check this: http://www.newark.com/jsp/search/browse.jsp;jsessionid=FK5LTJV53RWZ4CXDUZ1G2WQ?N=422&Ntk=gensearch&Ntt=opa2227p&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&exposeLevel2Refinement=true&suggestions=false&ref=globalsearch&_requestid=367141


For a review of OPA2227 aboard the Cmoy read the opamp rolling section of this article: http://www.headfonia.com/60-pack-of-awesome-jdslabs-cmoy/


----------



## hifimanrookie

george_63 said:


> Always buy from trusted-awarded sellers so that even if the products are not genuine,returns or refunds are 100% guaranteed.The truth is that PayPal never let me down in this matter and I got all my money back whenever I opened a case.It takes sometime but compensation is guaranteed.Chris is right in suggesting other sellers like Newark since e-bay has generally higher prices in opamps.The British e-bay for example sells OPA2227 for 12-19 pounds or $18-30 which is too expensive IMO.
> Check this: http://www.newark.com/jsp/search/browse.jsp;jsessionid=FK5LTJV53RWZ4CXDUZ1G2WQ?N=422&Ntk=gensearch&Ntt=opa2227p&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&exposeLevel2Refinement=true&suggestions=false&ref=globalsearch&_requestid=367141
> For a review of OPA2227 aboard the Cmoy read the opamp rolling section of this article: http://www.headfonia.com/60-pack-of-awesome-jdslabs-cmoy/[/quote
> 
> The one one I trust and dealt with concerning opamps627 is tamaudio..fast and reliable..on ebay there are some people who sell fake 627..soubdquality is terrible...so if u wanna play safe..use reputable sellers..and tamaudio is also the core seller or matrix mstage...


----------



## nickwin

Hi guys, I'm thinking about picking up a m-stage for my k701s and HRT MSII, but I'm not sure what variation to get.  I'm the kind of person who prefers less choices so all these options are throwing me off.  Is the general consensus that the v1 and v2 are basically the same in terms of sq?  Then with the v2, Tam Audio offers the standard OPA2134 version or for $30 more then class a biased mod OPA627 already installed.  Is there any agreement about which is optimal with k701s?  Or is it more a matter of taste?
   
  I currently have a Shanling PH100, its really dynamic and punchy, but I'm looking for more resolution, a tighter bottom end and maybe slightly more mid range warmth.  I have tried to read most of this thread but it is loooong and I know peoples opinions change over time.


----------



## putente

Quote: 





george_63 said:


> Always buy from trusted-awarded sellers so that even if the products are not genuine,returns or refunds are 100% guaranteed.The truth is that PayPal never let me down in this matter and I got all my money back whenever I opened a case.It takes sometime but compensation is guaranteed.Chris is right in suggesting other sellers like Newark since e-bay has generally higher prices in opamps.The British e-bay for example sells OPA2227 for 12-19 pounds or $18-30 which is too expensive IMO.
> Check this: http://www.newark.com/jsp/search/browse.jsp;jsessionid=FK5LTJV53RWZ4CXDUZ1G2WQ?N=422&Ntk=gensearch&Ntt=opa2227p&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&exposeLevel2Refinement=true&suggestions=false&ref=globalsearch&_requestid=367141
> For a review of OPA2227 aboard the Cmoy read the opamp rolling section of this article: http://www.headfonia.com/60-pack-of-awesome-jdslabs-cmoy/


 
   
   
  I already know the qualities of the OPA2227, as I have in my JDSLabs c241 amp! I wanted to buy it to try in my Matrix Cube too. I know the best place to buy opamps is on the big online retail sellers, but I've encountered one of two problems (or even both) trying to go that way: some only sell opamps in large quantites (i.e. min 50 pieces) or some charge extra expensive shipping cost for something like opamps (I've seen places where 2 opamp units sell for $5 but then I had to pay more $15 just for regular shipping). Anyone knows a safe place online to buy original opamps, in Europe or that ships to Europe at normal/acceptable shipping prices?


----------



## George_63

putente said:


> I already know the qualities of the OPA2227, as I have in my JDSLabs c241 amp! I wanted to buy it to try in my Matrix Cube too. I know the best place to buy opamps is on the big online retail sellers, but I've encountered one of two problems (or even both) trying to go that way: some only sell opamps in large quantites (i.e. min 50 pieces) or some charge extra expensive shipping cost for something like opamps (I've seen places where 2 opamp units sell for $5 but then I had to pay more $15 just for regular shipping). Anyone knows a safe place online to buy original opamps, in Europe or that ships to Europe at normal/acceptable shipping prices?




http://avnetexpress.avnet.com/store/em/EMController?hbxSType=New+Search&term=opa2227p&catalogId=500201&action=products&N=0&filterButton=true&langId=-1&currency=USD&displayCurrency=EUR&y=8&x=25&updateTransactionCurrency=false&storeId=500201

http://uk.rs-online.com/web/c/?sra=oss&searchTerm=opa2227p&x=16&y=18

http://chemicaloliver.net/arduino/where-to-buy-electronic-components-in-the-uk/


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





nickwin said:


> Hi guys, I'm thinking about picking up a m-stage for my k701s and HRT MSII, but I'm not sure what variation to get.  I'm the kind of person who prefers less choices so all these options are throwing me off.  Is the general consensus that the v1 and v2 are basically the same in terms of sq?  Then with the v2, Tam Audio offers the standard OPA2134 version or for $30 more then class a biased mod OPA627 already installed.  Is there any agreement about which is optimal with k701s?  Or is it more a matter of taste?
> 
> I currently have a Shanling PH100, its really dynamic and punchy, but I'm looking for more resolution, a tighter bottom end and maybe slightly more mid range warmth.  I have tried to read most of this thread but it is loooong and I know peoples opinions change over time.


 
   
  I've never heard a Shanling PH100, but from what I know of the Shanling, I have very serious doubts that the Matrix M Stage will actually be any better than the PH100.
  Generally a solid state amp like the Matrix will not sound warmer than a tube hybrid amp like the Shanling.
  I may be a bit biased as I really like my Shanling CD1000.


----------



## George_63

Originally posted by *hifimanrookie*

[COLOR=FF00AA]The one one I trust and dealt with concerning opamps627 is tamaudio..fast and reliable..on ebay there are some people who sell fake 627..soubdquality is terrible...so if u wanna play safe..use reputable sellers..and tamaudio is also the core seller or matrix mstage...[/quote][/COLOR]


I agree about Tamaudio's reliability but IMO the overall cost is unacceptable in many ways.Take for instance the Burr Brown OPA627AU with Class A Biasing Mod on a brown dog adapter which I intended to get the other day.Cost without shipping is 15.4 Euros.For this tiny 2g of weight piece of s... the shipping cost is 11.5 Euros!!!!Ok, maybe it comes with a tracking number or is expedited but I think I should have been given the right to choose since I'm paying.But that's not just it.Other sellers offer free shipping for buyings beyond certain amounts.I wouldn't expect them to do so but applying a PENALTY of 3.9 Euros if the order costs less than 19.5 Euros,thus raising the overall cost to 30 Euros is unacceptable. For me,that 's crossing my thin red line between selling services and exploitation.I have bought their matrix and their way of rewarding the proud owner is selling a minor modification for 1/8th of the amp's cost by adding penalties! No thanks....OPA2227 is great, same family as the 627, I'll do the biasing myself,and skip their reliable offer of one day's pay in my country.

PS:Sorry for the colored text but there was a problem with quotation editing


----------



## hifimanrookie

george_63 said:


> Originally posted by *hifimanrookie*
> [COLOR=FF00AA]The one one I trust and dealt with concerning opamps627 is tamaudio..fast and reliable..on ebay there are some people who sell fake 627..soubdquality is terrible...so if u wanna play safe..use reputable sellers..and tamaudio is also the core seller or matrix mstage...


[/COLOR]
I agree about Tamaudio's reliability but IMO the overall cost is unacceptable in many ways.Take for instance the Burr Brown OPA627AU with Class A Biasing Mod on a brown dog adapter which I intended to get the other day.Cost without shipping is 15.4 Euros.For this tiny 2g of weight piece of s... the shipping cost is 11.5 Euros!!!!Ok, maybe it comes with a tracking number or is expedited but I think I should have been given the right to choose since I'm paying.But that's not just it.Other sellers offer free shipping for buyings beyond certain amounts.I wouldn't expect them to do so but applying a PENALTY of 3.9 Euros if the order costs less than 19.5 Euros,thus raising the overall cost to 30 Euros is unacceptable. For me,that 's crossing my thin red line between selling services and exploitation.I have bought their matrix and their way of rewarding the proud owner is selling a minor modification for 1/8th of the amp's cost.No thanks....OPA2227 is great, same family as the 627, I'll do the biasing myself,and skip their reliable offer of one day's pay in my country.
PS:Sorry for the colored text but there was a problem with quatation editing[/quote]

Thats ok..that color is actually very happy looking 

From what i can remember the costs for sending to amsterdam was very low when i bought one..it was also without track and trace if i correctly remember..so they use a different way of sending now to improve reability?..but much more expensive..at the time it was a no brainer to me..but how u explain it..i can imagine it can make u wonder...dont know why it is so expensive to sent it to ur country..but what i do know..their stuff is good quality..the opa played in my mstage without any problems for more then a year. But why didnt u buy the already modded version of the mstage..i think i saw on their page that they sell it already opa627 equiped for a small etra fee..that would make the extra fee for transport zero..good luck with opamping...


----------



## nickwin

Hey, thanks for the reply Chris.  I'm really just asking about the versions of the M-stage is best, not whether the M-stage will necessarily be better than the PH100 or not or not (although if someone has compared them that would be great to know too!).  The PH100 is actually solid state it uses pretty nice components, but the one post I saw on this site years ago directly comparing the two said that the M-stage had more detail with k701s.   The M-stage k701 combo just has so much positive feedback I'm willing to compare myself...  I will say that the PH100 does sound good to my ears, better than anything I have tried yet.
   
  http://www.ebay.com/itm/SHANLING-PH100-HEADPHONE-AMPLIFIER-PH-100-HEAD-AMP-/220554411981


----------



## hifimanrookie

chris j said:


> I've never heard a Shanling PH100, but from what I know of the Shanling, I have very serious doubts that the Matrix M Stage will actually be any better than the PH100.
> Generally a solid state amp like the Matrix will not sound warmer than a tube hybrid amp like the Shanling.
> I may be a bit biased as I really like my Shanling CD1000.



I agree with that..the sound of a tube amp is much warmer..but some people prefer the sound of a solid state...so its more a personal taste...and for the money a mstage is a bargain..i had one driving a he500 on gain 10 db..and compared it to a very good tube amp ...the darkvoice 3322 with my he500..and the mstage blew him out of the water!..but the 337 was better then again his bigger brother annihilated my poor mstage...but it also its almost 3 times the price ( with other tubes in)..as i said..u always will have tubey lovers and ss lovers..its all about the headphones u wanna use them with..


----------



## nickwin

hifimanrookie said:


> I agree with that..the sound of a tube amp is much warmer..but some people prefer the sound of a solid state...so its more a personal taste...and for the money a mstage is a bargain..i had one driving a he500 on gain 10 db..and compared it to a very good tube amp ...the darkvoice 3322 with my he500..and the mstage blew him out of the water!..but the 337 was better then again his bigger brother annihilated my poor mstage...but it also its almost 3 times the price ( with other tubes in)..as i said..u always will have tubey lovers and ss lovers..its all about the headphones u wanna use them with..


 

As I say both amps in question are actually solid state... I'm just trying to figure out which version of the m-stage is the best match for k701s, the standard op amp or the class a modded 627. 

I'm also curious if anyone has compared the v1 and v2. Do they sound exactly the same?


----------



## hifimanrookie

nickwin said:


> As I say both amps in question are actually solid state... I'm just trying to figure out which version of the m-stage is the best match for k701s, the standard op amp or the class a modded 627.
> I'm also curious if anyone has compared the v1 and v2. Do they sound exactly the same?





Sorry..my apologies..about Version with opa 627 warmer sound lower bass..alltogether a bit better soundquality..but its in the details..not a day and night difference..
Difference between v1 and v2.. I contacted mr. Tamaudio bout this as i wanted to upgrade..they said..v2 soundwise is almost the same as v1..people on forums say the v1 is a bit warmer then the v2.. But i dont know that from own experience..i had the v1 with opa627 class a biassed mod..


----------



## Apo0th3karY

So my search has finally come to an end, I think.
   
  I've been searching high and low for a hp amp, that will serve as a pre amp, while not utilizing USB input.
   
  however, I'm wondering if there's room for an external DAC with this amp. I plan on having the M-Stage fed via RCA from my Traktor Kontrol S4 (specs: http://www.native-instruments.com/#/en/products/dj/traktor-kontrol-s4/?page=1808), then to my monitors. Is there room to add a DAC? or does my Kontrol S4 do that job? And if I were to add a DAC to this set up, would it be overkill, or just impracticle?


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





hoofbyte said:


> Hello everyone!
> 
> So six days ago i became a happy owner of a Matrix M-stage, bought it from TamAudio.
> 
> ...


 
   
  That cap was installed backwards.
  Great thing that you did not catch this any later.


----------



## fuzzybaffy

So... how should I set my gain settings on the M-Stage for my Sennheiser HD-650? I initially had them set at 0db, but I noticed a little bit of background noise, so I dropped them down to the quietest setting, at 20db.
   
  Also, why is the quieter setting 20db, while the louder setting at 0db?
   
  What is the appropriate gain setting for my HD-650, which is a 300 ohm impedance amp? (While the M-Stage, from what I remember, has an output for around 300 ohm).
   
  Finally, during the short time that I've set the gain at 0db, where there was a bit of noise, I think I might have noticed a bit of distortion in some songs. But I have no idea if it was because of the headphones themselves or just the recording/sources being bad. How do I know if I've damaged the headphone while I've had it at this setting?


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





fuzzybaffy said:


> So... how should I set my gain settings on the M-Stage for my Sennheiser HD-650? I initially had them set at 0db, but I noticed a little bit of background noise, so I dropped them down to the quietest setting, at 20db.
> 
> Also, why is the quieter setting 20db, while the louder setting at 0db?


 
   
  You probably have the switches reversed, which is what most people do as the diagram colors are confusing.  You want to set it so that white part of the switch matches the white part of the diagram.
   
  So 20dB is both switches up, and 0dB is both switches down.
   
  10dB is what I use.


----------



## fuzzybaffy

Oooooh I see. LOL! Thanks for letting me know.
   
  Any possibility that I might've damaged the headphones while I had it at the highest settings? I do remember hearing some noise without hearing any music turned on, and possibly some distortion. But I have no idea if that was because of the headphone or because of the recording/source...


----------



## beaver316

Quote: 





fuzzybaffy said:


> Oooooh I see. LOL! Thanks for letting me know.
> 
> Any possibility that I might've damaged the headphones while I had it at the highest settings? I do remember hearing some noise without hearing any music turned on, and possibly some distortion. But I have no idea if that was because of the headphone or because of the recording/source...


 
   
  Nah no way of damaging, unless you were listening to abnormally loud volumes for extended periods, but you would have done damage to your ears long before damaging the phones.
   
  But I really feel like Matrix failed with the gain sticker on this. Pretty much everyone confuses it for the reverse.


----------



## fuzzybaffy

Quote: 





> Nah no way of damaging, unless you were listening to abnormally loud volumes for extended periods, but you would have done damage to your ears long before damaging the phones.


 
   
   
  Got it. Thank you very much.
   
  And, yea... glad to know I wasn't the only one confused by the sticker. LOL.


----------



## hifimanrookie

fuzzybaffy said:


> Got it. Thank you very much.
> 
> And, yea... glad to know I wasn't the only one confused by the sticker. LOL.



Mine was reversed also..a form member told me just try all positions..lowest level is then 0db..thats how i did it..lolz


----------



## MrSponge

How's the synergy of the Matrix with a HE-400?


----------



## hifimanrookie

mrsponge said:


> How's the synergy of the Matrix with a HE-400?



I used the matrix to burn in my he500 and before that i used it two months with my now sold he400 and before that a year with my also sold he300... And for my ears it sounded just great..a bit bright with the he400.. But it had enough power to drive both the he500 and thr he400 on 10db gain..the he300 was best on db gain of 0 ..But i did have the class a biassed opa627 mod in it..maybe that helped.


----------



## Chris J

hifimanrookie said:


> I used the matrix to burn in my he500 and before that i used it two months with my now sold he400 and before that a year with my also sold he300... And for my ears it sounded just great..a bit bright with the he400.. But it had enough power to drive both the he500 and thr he400 on 10db gain..the he300 was best on db gain of 0 ..But i did have the class a biassed opa627 mod in it..maybe that helped.




Oi!
A Class A biased Op Amp may change the sound of the M Stage but it does not make the amp more powerful.


----------



## MrSponge

Does anyone if the Matrix M-Stages on Amazon being sold by Tam-Audio are the latest version?


----------



## hifimanrookie

chris j said:


> Oi!
> A Class A biased Op Amp may change the sound of the M Stage but it does not make the amp more powerful.



I meant soundwise..as the 627 makes the sound a bit warmer.. The amp itself had enough juice to power my he500


----------



## hifimanrookie

mrsponge said:


> Does anyone if the Matrix M-Stages on Amazon being sold by Tam-Audio are the latest version?



Tam audio is the original seller of matrix mstage..so yeah..they sell the newest versions..they even sell already modded mstages with opa upgrades..ready to go.. And i have good experience with them..


----------



## MrSponge

Quote: 





hifimanrookie said:


> Tam audio is the original seller of matrix mstage..so yeah..they sell the newest versions..they even sell already modded mstages with opa upgrades..ready to go.. And i have good experience with them..


 
   
  Really? On Amazon it says "[size=small]2010 version" and the pictures don't have grills...I'm also seeing "2012 1.2 version" on eBay. Are you sure that it is the latest M-Stage? Very sketchy... [/size]


----------



## hifimanrookie

mrsponge said:


> Really? On Amazon it says "[size=small]2010 version" and the pictures don't have grills...I'm also seeing "2012 1.2 version" on eBay. Are you sure that it is the latest M-Stage? Very sketchy... [/size]



Thats weird indeed..check their site directly : tamaudio.com. As far i know the latest version is 2012 v1..i heard there is a matrix electronics in usa..but i dont have experience with them..those have the slotted sides..the tamaudio version doesnt have those as far i know.but as far i know all reviews with the mstage i found on net, the models were provided by tamaudio.
Hope this info helps..ps..its said that the older versions sound a bit more natural then the newer versions..


----------



## Chris J

hifimanrookie said:


> I meant soundwise..as the 627 makes the sound a bit warmer.. The amp itself had enough juice to power my he500





Ummmmmm............


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





mrsponge said:


> Really? On Amazon it says "[size=small]2010 version" and the pictures don't have grills...I'm also seeing "2012 1.2 version" on eBay. Are you sure that it is the latest M-Stage? Very sketchy... [/size]


 
   
  Yes, TamAudio is legit, and is a official distributor for matrix gear.
   
  Check out the matrix's actual website under :Contact Us":
  http://www.matrix-digi.com/english/lxwm.asp
   
  Quote: 





> Asian Agency:
> *Tam Audio*
> Website : www.tamaudio.com


----------



## MrSponge

Quote: 





chicolom said:


> Yes, TamAudio is legit, and is a official distributor for matrix gear.
> 
> Check out the matrix's actual website under :Contact Us":
> http://www.matrix-digi.com/english/lxwm.asp


 
   
  I sent an e-mail just now. I just want to be 100% sure that I get the latest version. If this is too much of a headache...I might just go get an Asgard. Is the Asgard as versatile/good sounding as the M-Stage?


----------



## George_63

Ok guys,here it is...
   
      Got my dip-8 sockets this afternoon.Having only one OPA2227 I soldered the two 5.6k resistors on the socket so that I could switch between biased and unbiased configuration.As a procedure,switching was not that easy (one resistor was cut off while trying) as the position  of the resistors makes unpluging difficult.Anyway,the result was so obvious that switching twice sufficed...! It was more obvious than switching between 2227 and 2134.Listening to the same songs for the past month seems to have helped distinguishing subtle changes.''Paper Airplane" album by Alison Krauss and Union Station at a 24/96 recording and there it was:
      Bass got a little deeper.I felt I didn't have to use the extra gradually decreased 6db-3db gain of the 50Hz-220Hz bands on foobar's equilizer( AKG K701....yes I know....)
      Mids came out warm and highs  were less sibilant.Some slight granulation previously present in the vocals, vanished completely.My overall impression was that sound came out in a more tamed and civilized way without losing any detail.I detected a  tiny decrease in openess but nothing diminishing the overall improvemet. I'm quite happy with the result and biased OPA2227 is a keeper.How much better can Matrix sound anyway? I don't think I'll bother trying the 627 setup.
  The op-amp is running some 10-15 C hotter (~38-40C right after switch on so I guess higher than this a couple of hours later) but nothing to worry about since it can handle temps up to 85 C.I think I could use one of those mini heat sinks used in VGA's RAM chips.Wouldn't hurt anyway...
  
   
  DONE!!!


----------



## hifimanrookie

mrsponge said:


> I sent an e-mail just now. I just want to be 100% sure that I get the latest version. If this is too much of a headache...I might just go get an Asgard. Is the Asgard as versatile/good sounding as the M-Stage?



Why u want the last version persee? All versions of mstage sounds good..and for me the version 1 sounds warmer and more neutral then the newer version..so for me its a nobrainer..the asgard is a completely different amp...more in ur face amp..also a very good amp for the money!..if thats ur thing..u better forget mstage and go directly for a shiit..imho u cant compare those two..maybe only in pricing.. 
For me..if u buy from a reputable seller (tamaudio) u will get the most recent model. If its 1.1 or 1.2..for me..and i know..i just sold mine 2weeks ago..the version 1.0 of 2011 stays my favorite for laidback listening to my he300 that i had..only when i changed to the he500 just recently i bought my 337. But ofcourse this is how i feel about it.. I would look for a good condition mstage of 2011..it will be much cheaper and as the quality of the amp is excellent it will be faultless for many years to come 
Good luck with ur search


----------



## Apo0th3karY

How does the M-Stage compare to the Lyr? I know it's SS vs Tube, but just so I know I'm making the right decision, value wise.


----------



## hifimanrookie

​


apo0th3kary said:


> How does the M-Stage compare to the Lyr? I know it's SS vs Tube, but just so I know I'm making the right decision, value wise.



Its SS vs hybrid actually  

i never made a 1 to 1 comparision between both asi sold the mstage since i now have a 337...but i did owned a modded mstage for a year and i did listen to the lyr for at least an hour seperately..so i do this from memory..and all i can say is..compared to the mstage the lyr is a powerhouse.. Allthough i loved the mstage the lyr is a step up..but then again it does cost almost double.. If u have a hard to drive phone and ur budget is around 400.. Then this is the amp to go..and u can upgrade it with other tubes to improve it... I did find it to be a bit blurry on the lcd2 rev 2 and he500 compared to my excellent 337.. For around 400 the shiit is a great deal..as is the matrix for 249. Imho


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





hifimanrookie said:


> Its SS vs hybrid actually
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  I had a very similar experience with the Lyr, I own an M Stage and tried a Lyr out one day.
  I agree, the Lyr is a step up!


----------



## Apo0th3karY

Quote: 





hifimanrookie said:


> Its SS vs hybrid actually
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Thanks for the responses guys! Good to know!


----------



## beaver316

I'm not too versed with turntables and how they work, but would it be able to hook one up directly to the M-stage into the rca input? Or is something else needed in between?


----------



## Chris J

beaver316 said:


> I'm not too versed with turntables and how they work, but would it be able to hook one up directly to the M-stage into the rca input? Or is something else needed in between?




Yes, you need "something else".
You need a phono pre-amp.
I think the cheaper ones start at $100.00 and up.


----------



## the search never ends

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Yes, you need "something else".
> You need a phono pre-amp.
> I think the cheaper ones start at $100.00 and up.


 
  Yes, and I'd advise spending closer to 200 as a minimum.


----------



## Mikesin

Quote: 





josephsart said:


> If headphones are plugged in, the preamp output can not be heard.
> 
> If headphones are not plugged in, the preamp output can be heard.
> 
> This is what my M-Stage does anyway.


 
   
   
  Quote: 





svoboda123 said:


> Can someone please confirm for me that the pre-outs are not muted when headphones are inserted?  Isn't this a problem for anyone who wants to use it as both?  I mean, speaker sound reaching (often open) headphones and no ability to quiet speakers, such as in an office or late at night?


 

 Although this was 2 weeks 5 days ago posted, I am just reading back from when I left off from this thread, but my with my Matrix, I can hear both headphones and speakers at the same time, i'm not sure why this is different for everyone  else but I prefer it like this. Could 'burn in' headphones whilst actually listening to the music using speakers for e.g. 
 |


----------



## nickwin

Quote: 





chris j said:


> I had a very similar experience with the Lyr, I own an M Stage and tried a Lyr out one day.
> I agree, the Lyr is a step up!


 

 What headphones were you using with the Lyr?  Do you think it would be better for something like k701s than the M stage?


----------



## nickwin

Quote: 





hifimanrookie said:


> Why u want the last version persee? All versions of mstage sounds good..*and for me the version 1 sounds warmer and more neutral then the newer version.*.so for me its a nobrainer..the asgard is a completely different amp...more in ur face amp..also a very good amp for the money!..if thats ur thing..u better forget mstage and go directly for a shiit..imho u cant compare those two..maybe only in pricing..
> For me..if u buy from a reputable seller (tamaudio) u will get the most recent model. If its 1.1 or 1.2..for me..and i know..i just sold mine 2weeks ago..the version 1.0 of 2011 stays my favorite for laidback listening to my he300 that i had..only when i changed to the he500 just recently i bought my 337. But ofcourse this is how i feel about it.. I would look for a good condition mstage of 2011..it will be much cheaper and as the quality of the amp is excellent it will be faultless for many years to come
> 
> 
> ...


 
  How can it be both warmer and more neutral?  Do you mean the version 1 is warmer, but version two more neutral?


----------



## hifimanrookie

Quote: 





nickwin said:


> How can it be both warmer and more neutral?  Do you mean the version 1 is warmer, but version two more neutral?


 
  yes thats what i mean..sorry for the confusement..the newer one has a more US apreciated tuned sound then the chinese appreciated more darker tuned sound v.1 has


----------



## Chris J

nickwin said:


> What headphones were you using with the Lyr?  Do you think it would be better for something like k701s than the M stage?




I used the AKG Q701s.
Based on a short listen, I thought it sounded better than the Q and M Stage.
It added a bit of warmth and fullness and just sounded "right".

Hey, this is post 2100!


----------



## zalbard

I have one of these units coming in a couple of weeks. Looking into better OP-AMPs right now. Is anything objectively more resolving than Class A Biased LM4562?
   
  Thanks!


----------



## hifimanrookie

Quote: 





zalbard said:


> I have one of these units coming in a couple of weeks. Looking into better OP-AMPs right now. Is anything objectively more resolving than Class A Biased LM4562?
> 
> Thanks!


 

 opa627 opamps imho check tamaudio.com


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





zalbard said:


> I have one of these units coming in a couple of weeks. Looking into better OP-AMPs right now. Is anything objectively more resolving than Class A Biased LM4562?
> 
> Thanks!


 
   
  Just my opinion, but no, the LM4562 is The King of Neutral in the M.
  I haven't bothered adding a Class A mod to mine.


----------



## hifimanrookie

chris j said:


> Just my opinion, but no, the LM4562 is The King of Neutral in the M.
> I haven't bothered adding a Class A mod to mine.



Did u actually try the opa627 with class a mod? As on a review i think i Read the opa627 is better then the lm4562 soundwise..more powerfull and more soundstage. Thats why i went for the most expensive solution..the opa627 with class a


----------



## zalbard

Quote: 





hifimanrookie said:


> opa627 opamps imho check tamaudio.com


 
  What about opa637? Seems like it's an improved version of opa627.
   
  Quote: 





hifimanrookie said:


> Did u actually try the opa627 with class a mod? As on a review i think i Read the opa627 is better then the lm4562 soundwise..more powerfull and more soundstage. Thats why i went for the most expensive solution..the opa627 with class a


 
  Please post a link.


----------



## hifimanrookie

Quote: 





zalbard said:


> What about opa637? Seems like it's an improved version of opa627.
> 
> Please post a link.


 

 i wil try to find it again...i think u can try also..as it was a review about the mstage itself...and i think its spoken also on headfi and about the 637..i had contact with tamaudio concerning updating to opa637 from the opa627..and their customer service told me that it wasnt a big upgrade ( i wanted to upgrade to opa637 actually)..not worthy upgrading from opa627 anyway they told me...its a bit better yes...and if u need to buy first opa mod..then its better to take the 637..BUT..i understand that with the opa637 the mstage runs hotter...i cant say that from experience as i never had the opa637 myself..but i did have the 627...and it did wonders to my mstage that i just sold a month ago..


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





hifimanrookie said:


> Did u actually try the opa627 with class a mod? As on a review i think i Read the opa627 is better then the lm4562 soundwise..more powerfull and more soundstage. Thats why i went for the most expensive solution..the opa627 with class a


 
   
  Yes, I have tried both versions of an OPA627.
  I thought the LM4562 sounded cleaner and purer sounding.
  I thought the OPA627s sounded slightly foggier.
  It is just my opinion, and please note, the review is nothing more than someone else's opinion.
  Try them all out yourself, and form your own opinion, I don't think the Op Amps are expensive.
  In addition, no matter what Op Amp I  tried, the Matrix M still sounds like a Matrix M Stage.


----------



## hifimanrookie

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Yes, I have tried both versions of an OPA627.
> I thought the LM4562 sounded cleaner and purer sounding.
> I thought the OPA627s sounded slightly foggier.
> It is just my opinion, and please note, the review is nothing more than someone else's opinion.
> ...


 

 i agree on both things u said here.but i suppose with foggier u mean the 4562 sounds a bit thinner and less bassy..in that sense its indeed more detaillike....its ofcourse personal..and yeah..its not expensive..and yeah..in the end its still the best sounding amp i ever heard under 400 usd or even more expensive..and i tried lots of amps..and they all failed..until i heard my 337..and only that amp gave me the reason to update to another amp for my he500..i also listened to burson's and the 3322 of the darkvoice..and for my ears..only my recent amp was actually a bigger step upwards...its that good! and i loved every second listening to it. and i am almost sure..if i didnt (by accident) listened to the 337 i probably still had my mstage today.


----------



## zalbard

Thanks for your feedback! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Might be a stupid question, but... Can all of the op-amps be installed in pairs (using something like this).
  Just wondering whether it's going to work with 2x LM4562NAs, or if I can only use one of these on a single socket biasing adapter.


----------



## kazaakas

Quote: 





zalbard said:


> Thanks for your feedback!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  The LM4562NA is a dual channel opamp, you need only one.
  When people are using single-channel opamps they have to use some sort of pairing, but not with the NA's


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





hifimanrookie said:


> i agree on both things u said here.but i suppose with foggier u mean the 4562 sounds a bit thinner and less bassy..in that sense its indeed more detaillike....its ofcourse personal..and yeah..its not expensive..and yeah..in the end its still the best sounding amp i ever heard under 400 usd or even more expensive..and i tried lots of amps..and they all failed..until i heard my 337..and only that amp gave me the reason to update to another amp for my he500..i also listened to burson's and the 3322 of the darkvoice..and for my ears..only my recent amp was actually a bigger step upwards...its that good! and i loved every second listening to it. and i am almost sure..if i didnt (by accident) listened to the 337 i probably still had my mstage today.


 
   
  Here's where I come from:
  I feel the bone stock M Stage is a bit too warm and dark for my tastes, so I was trying to reduce that and I found a bit of what I was looking for in the LM4562.
   
  OTOH, I still like to use a tube amp with 'phones......but nothing too dark.
  Right now I use the 336C with 600 Ohm DT880s.


----------



## hifimanrookie

chris j said:


> Here's where I come from:
> I feel the bone stock M Stage is a bit too warm and dark for my tastes, so I was trying to reduce that and I found a bit of what I was looking for in the LM4562.
> 
> OTOH, I still like to use a tube amp with 'phones......but nothing too dark.
> Right now I use the 336C with 600 Ohm DT880s.



Then uhave to try the 337.. Its even less dark then the 336c..and much stronger!


----------



## fuzzybaffy

Any word or reviews on the M-Stage DAC? (The standalone one, not the crummy one that comes with the M-Stage Amp USB.)
   
  I did a search for it, but there weren't very many reviews or posts on them. So I was wondering if there were some people who have purchased one who hasn't written about them yet... ?


----------



## Chris J

hifimanrookie said:


> Then uhave to try the 337.. Its even less dark then the 336c..and much stronger!




LOL!
Thanks for the tip, but I think my next headphone amp will be a mega SS amp with balanced ins and outs!


----------



## hifimanrookie

chris j said:


> LOL!
> Thanks for the tip, but I think my next headphone amp will be a mega SS amp with balanced ins and outs!



Then i guess u try the violectric hpa v181 or the shiit mjolnir or even the pseudo balanced yulong a18 sabre.


----------



## Chris J

hifimanrookie said:


> Then i guess u try the violectric hpa v181 or the shiit mjolnir or even the pseudo balanced yulong a18 sabre.




Yikes!
Keep me away from the psuedo balanced Yulong!

Throw the Bryston into the list.


----------



## Taowolf51

Question to all the more experienced M-Stage owners, how often do you turn it on and off? Each time you leave your setup? Only turn off at night? Or leave on all the time?


----------



## hifimanrookie

taowolf51 said:


> Question to all the more experienced M-Stage owners, how often do you turn it on and off? Each time you leave your setup? Only turn off at night? Or leave on all the time?



I had one for 2 years..modded with opa627 class a. And i always switched it off after using..i did let it warm up for 15 min though before listening...but. I do that with all the amps. I had before..but i have to say..my listening periods were at least 3 hours! I once forgot the amp being switched on while i had to go out for a certain matter..and wheni got back 12 hours later i started listen to it..and to be honest..i didnt hear any difference in sound then what i normally switch it off and on..hope this helps!


----------



## hifimanrookie

chris j said:


> Yikes!
> Keep me away from the psuedo balanced Yulong!
> Throw the Bryston into the list.



To be honest i heard the yulong is pretty good..but only from reviews..actually..i am invited to a long listening experience with a yulong a18 in 3 weeks time. I will be taking my he500's with me. I will take my excellent 337 (which was better then any burson paired with my he500!) also with me..as reference. I will try to do a little review while listening


----------



## taylorpoz

Anyone here used the m-stage with USB DAC? Just wondering how good the DAC is....


----------



## GaToMaLaCo

Its good enought for the extra 30 bucks it cost. Unless you need the extra rca inputs. I got one Matrix with usb dac and i really like it, I put a couple of BB OPA602 on the dac and i got nice sinergy with OPA637 + class A bias mod. My Beyerdynamic DT990 sounds very nice! XD


----------



## fuzzybaffy

What about the standalone Matrix M-Stage DAC? The standalone $300 DAC, not the one that comes with the M-Stage USB amp. Anybody know or have any opinions about those?


----------



## GaToMaLaCo

Have a look:
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/products/matrix-m-stage-dac
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/616771/new-matrix-m-stage-dac
   
  http://www.headfonia.com/matrix-m-stage-dac/


----------



## fuzzybaffy

Yep. As mentioned before, I did a search for it, and those links you posted were exactly the ones I found. I was just wondering if there was anybody else who has gotten their hands on one and have made up opinions on them since those threads/reviews have been posted?


----------



## taylorpoz

Quote: 





gatomalaco said:


> Its good enought for the extra 30 bucks it cost. Unless you need the extra rca inputs. I got one Matrix with usb dac and i really like it, I put a couple of BB OPA602 on the dac and i got nice sinergy with OPA637 + class A bias mod. My Beyerdynamic DT990 sounds very nice! XD


 
  Cool beans. Thanks for your input. I think I'm gunna go ahead and get the M-Stage w/ USB DAC and use that with the K701s i will also be getting. If i had the cash, I would go for Bifrost + Valhalla, but hopefully that will come later. For now, the m-stage should do more than well enough for me. It'll be fun op amp rolling and messing around with it


----------



## K_19

Got these into my stable as a "downgrade" HD800 amp, replacing my good old WA6SE.  The 6SE is better, without a doubt, but the reason I downgraded was because HD800 was no longer my primary headphone (the Stax 007 MK1's are) and I needed to come up with some money into furthering my Stax rig.
   
  With that said, In my Macbook air -> M2tech Hiface -> Stello DA100 -> M-Stage (stock default version) rig, the HD800 sounds very lively and powerful, and am very satisfied with the synergy thus far. The main differences are that the M-Stage is little bit more harsh in the sibilance region and is less warm in the lower midrange compared to my old WA6SE, but these problems are not severe enough to my ears to become an issue. For the price it sounds spectacular indeed, and beats out the other SS amps I had such as the Stello HP100 and Burson 160D for the HD800. It's neck and neck with my old AMB M3 as well, which also amped the HD800's very well.  Another plus is that it's very silent overall without hissing noise or static noises when I plug and unplug the headphones.
   
  The only thing I'm not happy with, however, is its volume control. No idea why they decided to use a knob so slippery on this? Does anyone have a good recommendation on a nice tactile feel volume knob replacement?


----------



## GaToMaLaCo

Quote: 





k_19 said:


> Got these into my stable as a "downgrade" HD800 amp, replacing my good old WA6SE.  The 6SE is better, without a doubt, but the reason I downgraded was because HD800 was no longer my primary headphone (the Stax 007 MK1's are) and I needed to come up with some money into furthering my Stax rig.
> 
> With that said, In my Macbook air -> M2tech Hiface -> Stello DA100 -> M-Stage (stock default version) rig, the HD800 sounds very lively and powerful, and am very satisfied with the synergy thus far. The main differences are that the M-Stage is little bit more harsh in the sibilance region and is less warm in the lower midrange compared to my old WA6SE, but these problems are not severe enough to my ears to become an issue. For the price it sounds spectacular indeed, and beats out the other SS amps I had such as the Stello HP100 and Burson 160D for the HD800. It's neck and neck with my old AMB M3 as well, which also amped the HD800's very well.  Another plus is that it's very silent overall without hissing noise or static noises when I plug and unplug the headphones.
> 
> The only thing I'm not happy with, however, is its volume control. No idea why they decided to use a knob so slippery on this? Does anyone have a good recommendation on a nice tactile feel volume knob replacement?


 
   
  For a volume knob take a look here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-30x22-Aluminum-Hi-Fi-CD-VOLUME-TONE-CONTROL-KNOB-Bs-/180672233284


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





k_19 said:


> Got these into my stable as a "downgrade" HD800 amp, replacing my good old WA6SE.  The 6SE is better, without a doubt, but the reason I downgraded was because HD800 was no longer my primary headphone (the Stax 007 MK1's are) and I needed to come up with some money into furthering my Stax rig.
> 
> With that said, In my Macbook air -> M2tech Hiface -> Stello DA100 -> M-Stage (stock default version) rig, the HD800 sounds very lively and powerful, and am very satisfied with the synergy thus far. The main differences are that the M-Stage is little bit more harsh in the sibilance region and is less warm in the lower midrange compared to my old WA6SE, but these problems are not severe enough to my ears to become an issue. For the price it sounds spectacular indeed, and beats out the other SS amps I had such as the Stello HP100 and Burson 160D for the HD800. It's neck and neck with my old AMB M3 as well, which also amped the HD800's very well.  Another plus is that it's very silent overall without hissing noise or static noises when I plug and unplug the headphones.
> 
> The only thing I'm not happy with, however, is its volume control. No idea why they decided to use a knob so slippery on this? Does anyone have a good recommendation on a nice tactile feel volume knob replacement?


 
   
  Wow!
  Hey, thanks for the M Stage comparisons!
  My little reptile brain keeps thinking that a mega $$$ amp has GOT TO sound better than an M Stage. 
  How does it compare to the O2? 
  I must have dry, scaly reptile fingers, the M Stage knob does not bother me. Just my opinion.
   
  I used to live in T.O up until 17 years ago, nice city. Very nice city.


----------



## hifimanrookie

chris j said:


> Wow!
> Hey, thanks for the M Stage comparisons!
> My little reptile brain keeps thinking that a mega $$$ amp has GOT TO sound better than an M Stage.
> How does it compare to the O2?
> ...



Trust me..the mstage is one heck of a beauty soundwise..i had one for 2 years and sometimes blew even more expensive amps out of water..only my new and also not expensive 337 was good enough in my eyes to drive the he500's better then the mstage..its a gem..that little black mstage i had..


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





hifimanrookie said:


> Trust me..the mstage is one heck of a beauty soundwise..i had one for 2 years and sometimes blew even more expensive amps out of water..only my new and also not expensive 337 was good enough in my eyes to drive the he500's better then the mstage..its a gem..that little black mstage i had..


 
  Thanks,
  Then I should quit my agonizing and my lust for more $$$ amps.
  BTW,
  My M Stage uses the LM4562 Op Amp and I have removed the input coupling caps (all my sources have no DC offset at their outputs).


----------



## hifimanrookie

chris j said:


> Thanks,
> Then I should quit my agonizing and my lust for more $$$ amps.
> BTW,
> My M Stage uses the LM4562 Op Amp and I have removed the input coupling caps (all my sources have no DC offset at their outputs).



I had the opa 627 class a mod in my black beauty


----------



## WestLander

Quote: 





hifimanrookie said:


> I had the opa 627 class a mod in my black beauty


 
   
  Can I also plug the LME49720HA (metal can)? I have it in my silver M-Stage and it sounds so so wonderful with the HE-500 (+10 gain). Before that I had the the Audio-GD OPA SUN, but it was a little too warm, and not as detailed as I would have liked...Particularly after hearing what the HE-500s were capable of out of a great source + amp at a recent head-fi meet, the LME in the M-Stage gets me most of the way there.. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  If money was no object, *Chris J*, I'd say buy the new Headamp GS-X and be done with upgrades!


----------



## hifimanrookie

westlander said:


> Can I also plug the LME49720HA (metal can)? I have it in my silver M-Stage and it sounds so so wonderful with the HE-500 (+10 gain). Before that I had the the Audio-GD OPA SUN, but it was a little too warm, and not as detailed as I would have liked...Particularly after hearing what the HE-500s were capable of out of a great source + amp at a recent head-fi meet, the LME in the M-Stage gets me most of the way there..
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I used my mstage also with gain on 10 with my opa 627 modded mstage..and it sounded good..
But am sorry i cant help u with ur question..but am sure some other will 

To chris j. For the he500 for instance u wont find any better amp for the money then the lafigaro 339 and his brother..the darkvoice 337.


----------



## WestLander

Quote: 





hifimanrookie said:


> I used my mstage also with gain on 10 with my opa 627 modded mstage..and it sounded good..
> But am sorry i cant help u with ur question..but am sure some other will
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Oh sorry I wasn't clear, I already have the LME in the M-Stage right now, I just wanted to mention that it is a good alternative to the OPA 627..


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





hifimanrookie said:


> I had the opa 627 class a mod in my black beauty





>


 
   
  Yeah, I tried the OPA '27 with Class A mod and without Class A mod. Tain't my thang. I should add that I don't hear a large difference between Op Amps.......whatever Op Amp I use, basically, the M Stage still sounds like an M Stage, if you follow my meaning.
   
  Just my 2 cents worth, but I prefer the LM4562 in my Black Beauty.


----------



## hifimanrookie

chris j said:


> Yeah, I tried the OPA '27 with Class A mod and without Class A mod. Tain't my thang. I should add that I don't hear a large difference between Op Amps.......whatever Op Amp I use, basically, the M Stage still sounds like an M Stage, if you follow my meaning.
> 
> Just my 2 cents worth, but I prefer the LM4562 in my Black Beauty.



Everyone has its own preference as all our ears are different..point is..the mstage sounds unbelievable for the money..no matter the opa


----------



## hifimanrookie

westlander said:


> Oh sorry I wasn't clear, I already have the LME in the M-Stage right now, I just wanted to mention that it is a good alternative to the OPA 627..



 thats ok..i understand now


----------



## Suopermanni

Would anyone recommend using this amp for a HE500?


----------



## hifimanrookie

Quote: 





suopermanni said:


> Would anyone recommend using this amp for a HE500?


 

 before i had my 337..i owned a mstage with opa627 class mod...i let my he500 burn in with my faithfull little pal...and it sounded wonderfull... i tried a couple of amps to compare it with my mstage..and most of them failed.. only my 337 was worthy enough to take the place of my special mstage...for my he500.
   
  with gain on 10db it drove then he500 perfectly...so yes..i recommend the amp. to be honest..if i didnt come upon the 337 i would probably still have my mstage..its that good.


----------



## bracko

Thanks for a great thread. I have been thinking for a long time to invest in a good amp to drive my hd650. Do you have any experience with mstage/hd650 combo? My plan is also to buy akg k701/702 and I would like to have a good amp capable of driving both akg and the senn. Is matrix such an amp?


----------



## Suopermanni

This is a question I can answer, having had the HD650s and the Q701 with the basic M-Stage. I can say that the amp will work well with those phones, though I hope you have a listen to those phones before you buy them. The HD650 especially as I found it too laid back for my taste.


----------



## bracko

suopermanni said:


> This is a question I can answer, having had the HD650s and the Q701 with the basic M-Stage. I can say that the amp will work well with those phones, though I hope you have a listen to those phones before you buy them. The HD650 especially as I found it too laid back for my taste.




Oh, I own a hd650 and find them very pleasurable with some recordings. I heard k701 a couple of months ago and liked their open, smooth and airy sound. Do you think I should listen to some other phones before making a decision? I have to admit I liked akg more than my senns.


----------



## Suopermanni

Oh! You have heard those phones. I was just worried you may be purchasing them without hearing them first. I'm not saying that you need to hear more phones first, just the phones you are interested in. Because there are so many phones out there, if you keep researching, you'll never get one or end up horribly confused.


----------



## bracko

Quote: 





suopermanni said:


> Oh! You have heard those phones. I was just worried you may be purchasing them without hearing them first. I'm not saying that you need to hear more phones first, just the phones you are interested in. Because there are so many phones out there, if you keep researching, you'll never get one or end up horribly confused.


 

 Thanks. Yeah, that's what I suspected too 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I've learned that it's unlikely I will find a pair that fits all sorts of music. I have heard some other headphones too from Beyerdynamic, HifiMan, Sony, Sennheiser etc. Unfortunately I am not that rich to afford all those beautiful cans 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, and k701 seems like a great bargain costing only €200 where I live. Besides, it seems to be a good companion to HD650.


----------



## George_63

Quote: 





bracko said:


> Thanks. Yeah, that's what I suspected too
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 It is a bargain indeed but when you use them for the first time try not to get disappointed as they won't sound as you might expect them to.K701 take weeks of burning-in to reveal their clarity and openess.Use pink or white noise from here http://whitenoisemp3s.com/free-white-noise played in a loop and forget them for 2 weeks!
  They lack the bass other cans have (some equilizing fixes that IMO) but their clarity is unsurpassed for the money you spend.If you're a jazz lover these babies are the best value for money.


----------



## bracko

Quote: 





george_63 said:


> It is a bargain indeed but when you use them for the first time try not to get disappointed as they won't sound as you might expect them to.K701 take weeks of burning-in to reveal their clarity and openess.Use pink or white noise from here http://whitenoisemp3s.com/free-white-noise played in a loop and forget them for 2 weeks!
> They lack the bass other cans have (some equilizing fixes that IMO) but their clarity is unsurpassed for the money you spend.If you're a jazz lover these babies are the best value for money.


 
   
  Thanks. Yes, I love jazz and I love classical music as well. That's where I found AKG were sounding great. I will certainly download that file


----------



## bracko

Another question about the Matrix amp. What is the difference between the different gain settings? Which one to use with HD650 and K701? I guess that with higher gain settings there is more electronic circuitry involved which can give ibferior sound. Maybe my guess is wrong?


----------



## hifimanrookie

bracko said:


> Another question about the Matrix amp. What is the difference between the different gain settings? Which one to use with HD650 and K701? I guess that with higher gain settings there is more electronic circuitry involved which can give ibferior sound. Maybe my guess is wrong?



The only difference i found on thedifferentgain was that on highest gain the sound gets a bit muddy...the other gain setting dont effeft the sound quality to my ears..but to be honest..even with my my he500 i never needed more the gain 10 db..and that phone ismuch harder to drive then the hd650 or the akg..so no need to worry about sound quality decrease


----------



## WestLander

I think +10 gain is the consensus best. The M-Stage pairs very well with the AKG K701, so I'm sure you'll be happy with whatever setting you choose. Volume control might be more difficult at higher gain though, so be careful with your eardrums!


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





george_63 said:


> It is a bargain indeed but when you use them for the first time try not to get disappointed as they won't sound as you might expect them to.K701 take weeks of burning-in to reveal their clarity and openess.Use pink or white noise from here http://whitenoisemp3s.com/free-white-noise played in a loop and forget them for 2 weeks!
> They lack the bass other cans have (some equilizing fixes that IMO) but their clarity is unsurpassed for the money you spend.If you're a jazz lover these babies are the best value for money.


 
   
  Burn-in is very controversial, I have a pair of Q701s, I tried burning them in for a week, but I listened to them every day while I was burning them in, I heard no difference.
   
  OTOH, I liked the Q701 first time I heard them.
  I would call myself a Jazz lover and yes, they are just the thing for Jazz.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





bracko said:


> Another question about the Matrix amp. What is the difference between the different gain settings? Which one to use with HD650 and K701? I guess that with higher gain settings there is more electronic circuitry involved which can give ibferior sound. Maybe my guess is wrong?


 
   
  There is no additional circuitry when High Gain is used
  The difference is:
  high gain: less feedback, so you may hear a bit more distortion, and less bandwidth
  low gain: more feedback, so you may hear a bit less distortion, but I doubt it, and a bit more bandwidth.
   
  As others have pointed out, most people set gain to 10 dB and forget it.


----------



## Shazb0t

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Burn-in is very controversial, I have a pair of Q701s, I tried burning them in for a week, but I listened to them every day while I was burning them in, I heard no difference.
> 
> OTOH, I liked the Q701 first time I heard them.
> I would call myself a Jazz lover and yes, they are just the thing for Jazz.


 
   
  I've read on the forums that someone was told by AKG that the Q701's are burned in from the factory.


----------



## fuzzybaffy

I'd like to chip in really quickly saying that the M-Stage drives my Sennheiser HD-650 really well.


----------



## bracko

Quote: 





hifimanrookie said:


> The only difference i found on thedifferentgain was that on highest gain the sound gets a bit muddy...the other gain setting dont effeft the sound quality to my ears..but to be honest..even with my my he500 i never needed more the gain 10 db..and that phone ismuch harder to drive then the hd650 or the akg..so no need to worry about sound quality decrease


 
   
  It is really reassuring to know that. By the way, I think that HE-500 are really marvellous headphones. Are you happy with them?
   
  Quote: 





westlander said:


> I think +10 gain is the consensus best. The M-Stage pairs very well with the AKG K701, so I'm sure you'll be happy with whatever setting you choose. Volume control might be more difficult at higher gain though, so be careful with your eardrums!


 
   
  Then 10 dB it will be. I will test 0 and 18 too just to see if I can hear any difference.
   
  Quote: 





chris j said:


> Burn-in is very controversial, I have a pair of Q701s, I tried burning them in for a week, but I listened to them every day while I was burning them in, I heard no difference.
> 
> OTOH, I liked the Q701 first time I heard them.
> I would call myself a Jazz lover and yes, they are just the thing for Jazz.


 
   
  OK, I heard a pair of K701 that were well burnt-in I beleive. They were at least 5 months old then. It was a pair with a newer 5-digit serial number starting on 80 if I remember correctly.
   
  Quote: 





chris j said:


> There is no additional circuitry when High Gain is used
> The difference is:
> high gain: less feedback, so you may hear a bit more distortion, and less bandwidth
> low gain: more feedback, so you may hear a bit less distortion, but I doubt it, and a bit more bandwidth.
> ...


 
   
  OK. Than it's safer to use lower gain, distortion-wise.
  Quote: 





shazb0t said:


> I've read on the forums that someone was told by AKG that the Q701's are burned in from the factory.


 
   
  That is interesting. It would be very interesting to know if they do the same with K701.
   
  Quote: 





fuzzybaffy said:


> I'd like to chip in really quickly saying that the M-Stage drives my Sennheiser HD-650 really well.


 
   
  Great, I use Musical Fidelity X-Can v3 right now but I'm not sure my HD650 really is comfortable with a hybrid amp. What do you think? There is lots of power in X-can but I think that it maybe is "too much warmth" delivered from a tube amp. My plan is to sell the X-Can and buy a Matrix amp and use it with both k701 and HD650. But my question is, wouldn't MF be a good companion to K701


----------



## kazaakas

So last week I switched the opamp of my M-Stage to a LME49860 (more or less the same as LM4562 and LME49720) and contrary to what most people say, it DID make a significant difference!
  This thing is actually a thick sounding amp now and believe it or not but my Q701's are sounding real bassy! Even the clarity and the soundstage SEEMS (!) to be improved. But boy am I happy I did this mod, I'm close to perfecting my rig now


----------



## zalbard

Quote: 





kazaakas said:


> So last week I switched the opamp of my M-Stage to a LME49860 (more or less the same as LM4562 and LME49720) and contrary to what most people say, it DID make a significant difference!
> This thing is actually a thick sounding amp now and believe it or not but my Q701's are sounding real bassy! Even the clarity and the soundstage SEEMS (!) to be improved. But boy am I happy I did this mod, I'm close to perfecting my rig now


 
  Nice!
  Considering Class A biasing it?


----------



## hifimanrookie

bracko said:


> It is really reassuring to know that. By the way, I think that HE-500 are really marvellous headphones. Are you happy with them?




I tried a couple of phones..also somemore expensive ones..for me..and for the price..i didnt find a better phone..it isnt perfect in anything..but more important..its not bad in anything also..most phones are good in some things and bad in others..the he500 is very balanced..until now and with the amp i have it plays ALL kinds of music brillantly..from metal to classic, from adele to queen, from mozart to marley from regueaton to r&b, from jazz to 80ties disco,from blues to hiphop, and from dj tiesto to the shadows. The only music i dont use it with is country and western as i dont like that very much  for the rest..sit down..put any music on and just embrace the music coming from ur phone BUT with the right amp.and .it doesnt need to be expensive so that u have to sell ur kidney or something..lolz..as u can see on my profile


----------



## bracko

It seems that OP mods are very usual with this amp. Will something like this do for a starter?
   
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2xMono-to-Dual-OPAMP-2x-OPA627-NE5532-OPA2604-x2-set-/281020844478?pt=US_Amplifier_Parts_Components&hash=item416e25c9be


----------



## kazaakas

Quote: 





zalbard said:


> Nice!
> Considering Class A biasing it?


 
  Sure man, as much as I like the sound now, I'm always looking to improve it, what are the changes class-A biasing brings? I recall a it's either a warmer or brighter sound... lol which one was it?
  Your setup is a lot like mine (better said: identical, just with my dream headphone , and save my $15 RCA cables) ever tried opamp rolling with the TiHD? LM49720 didn't work for **** in mine and still gotta solder some other ones but stil got to get myself some adapters and borrow/use a decent soldering iron somewhere.
  Quote: 





bracko said:


> It seems that OP mods are very usual with this amp. Will something like this do for a starter?
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2xMono-to-Dual-OPAMP-2x-OPA627-NE5532-OPA2604-x2-set-/281020844478?pt=US_Amplifier_Parts_Components&hash=item416e25c9be


 
   
  If you want to try opamp rolling for a starter, I'd just order a free LM4652NA or equivalent from national semiconductor, many people (myself included) are loving it with the amp.


----------



## supra1988t

I have one of these on the way from the massdrop group buy.  Can anyone tell me if the opamps from the iBasso topkit work with this amp as well?  Im pretty green to these ss amps.


----------



## Taowolf51

For those pairing the M-Stage with the D7000, I noticed a little something. It's commonly recommended to go with a gain setting of 10 with the D7000's, but I believe that if you have a MarkL modded D7000, the gain setting of 18 is better. I've noticed that the gain switch 10 has more of a focus on mids and rolls off the bass and highs a bit. While this would be great to balance out the stock D7000's, the MarkL Denons have already been somewhat balanced out, which makes the gain switch 10 essentially balance it out twice, and make it somewhat bass shy and less exciting overall. Switching the gain to 18 brought back the excitement and gave it back the Denon signature. If you think the Denons (MarkL or stock) are a bit too bassy, set the gain to 10, but if you like them the way they are, stick them on 18. Or, even better, try both!
   
   
   
   
   
   
  Quote: 





k_19 said:


> Got these into my stable as a "downgrade" HD800 amp, replacing my good old WA6SE.  The 6SE is better, without a doubt, but the reason I downgraded was because HD800 was no longer my primary headphone (the Stax 007 MK1's are) and I needed to come up with some money into furthering my Stax rig.
> 
> With that said, In my Macbook air -> M2tech Hiface -> Stello DA100 -> M-Stage (stock default version) rig, the HD800 sounds very lively and powerful, and am very satisfied with the synergy thus far. The main differences are that the M-Stage is little bit more harsh in the sibilance region and is less warm in the lower midrange compared to my old WA6SE, but these problems are not severe enough to my ears to become an issue. For the price it sounds spectacular indeed, and beats out the other SS amps I had such as the Stello HP100 and Burson 160D for the HD800. It's neck and neck with my old AMB M3 as well, which also amped the HD800's very well.  Another plus is that it's very silent overall without hissing noise or static noises when I plug and unplug the headphones.
> 
> The only thing I'm not happy with, however, is its volume control. No idea why they decided to use a knob so slippery on this? Does anyone have a good recommendation on a nice tactile feel volume knob replacement?


 
   
  The M-Stage should sound very good with the HD800's. According to the reviewer, the M-Stage is a fairly close knockoff of the Lehmann Black Cube Linear, which was paired with the HD800 during its development and after during demonstrations at trade shows. So in a way, they were almost made for each other.


----------



## hifimanrookie

taowolf51 said:


> For
> 
> The M-Stage should sound very good with the HD800's. According to the reviewer, the M-Stage is a fairly close knockoff of the Lehmann Black Cube Linear, which was paired with the HD800 during its development and after during demonstrations at trade shows. So in a way, they were almost made for each other.



I agree with that..th mstage is a very good clone of the excellent cube who was tested with the hd800 during development.


----------



## bracko

Quote: 





kazaakas said:


> If you want to try opamp rolling for a starter, I'd just order a free LM4652NA or equivalent from national semiconductor, many people (myself included) are loving it with the amp.


 
   
   
  Thank you. I will try that. The amp is ordered now. I also ordered a pair of k701s


----------



## Ixion

I too have ordered an M-stage this afternoon after reading this thread, Also a pair of DT770's to go with it, my first venture into this hobby..


----------



## WestLander

Welcome to Head-fi! Sorry for your wallet...

But on a more serious note, you should love the M-Stage..


----------



## hifimanrookie

Quote: 





westlander said:


> Welcome to Head-fi! Sorry for your wallet...
> But on a more serious note, you should love the M-Stage..


 

 am sure he will...


----------



## kasimoa

Recently ordered the Matrix M Stage. Coming all the way from China does anyone know how long does it usually take to arrive in UK.


----------



## Ixion

Quote: 





kasimoa said:


> Recently ordered the Matrix M Stage. Coming all the way from China does anyone know how long does it usually take to arrive in UK.


 

 Ordered mine On the 7th of this month, no show yet.
   
  Did you order via ebay?
   
  Edit :-  [size=10pt]Your item was handed over to Customs(UNITED KINGDOM COVENTRY PARCELFORCE) at 2013-01-13 19:16:00[/size]


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





ixion said:


> Ordered mine On the 7th of this month, no show yet.


 
   
   
  Unless you live in China it will take more than a week.  Mine probably took ~15 days to arrive.


----------



## beaver316

Quote: 





kasimoa said:


> Recently ordered the Matrix M Stage. Coming all the way from China does anyone know how long does it usually take to arrive in UK.


 
   
  I orderer mine on a Friday and recieved them the following Monday through Fedex from China.


----------



## bracko

I received mine from China after 4 working days.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





ixion said:


> Ordered mine On the 7th of this month, no show yet.
> 
> Did you order via ebay?
> 
> Edit :-  [size=10pt]Your item was handed over to Customs(UNITED KINGDOM COVENTRY PARCELFORCE) at 2013-01-13 19:16:00[/size]


 
   
  Delivery was approximately a week to Canada.


----------



## kazaakas

China to Holland was less than a week for me
   
  pretty damn fast


----------



## elwappo99

Massdrop just started another sale on these
   
  https://www.massdrop.com/buy/matrix-headphone-amp-2


----------



## Ixion

The M-Stage has landed, unfortunately only time to unbox and power up before work.

This is going to be a long shift..


----------



## hifimanrookie

ixion said:


> The M-Stage has landed, unfortunately only time to unbox and power up before work.
> 
> This is going to be a long shift..



Congrats with ur new baby..u will love it..let it burn in for a while and u will be in heaven


----------



## Shazb0t

How does this amp compare to the O2?


----------



## dogwan

Quote: 





shazb0t said:


> How does this amp compare to the O2?


 

 I have had both. I still have the M-stage.
   
  (in whispered tones)_ I didn't like the O2. Too sterile for me. I always offer that opinion up carefully because inevitably some O2 fanboy tells me how there is something wrong with my opinion._


----------



## Shazb0t

dogwan said:


> I have had both. I still have the M-stage.
> 
> (in whispered tones) _I didn't like the O2. Too sterile for me. I always offer that opinion up carefully because inevitably some O2 fanboy tells me how there is something wrong with my opinion._




So is it fair to say then that you feel the m-stage is a bit colored in comparison to the O2?


----------



## Satellite_6

Quote: 





shazb0t said:


> So is it fair to say then that you feel the m-stage is a bit colored in comparison to the O2?


 
  This is true. The O2 sounds more clear and sterile - as an amp should.


----------



## purrin

Quote: 





satellite_6 said:


> This is true. The O2 sounds more clear and sterile - as an amp should.


 
   
  In other words, it commits errors of omission rather than errors of commission?


----------



## WestLander

Quote: 





satellite_6 said:


> ...more clear and sterile - as an amp should.


 
   
  *Ahem*....As some people *prefer* an amp should


----------



## elwappo99

Quote: 





satellite_6 said:


> This is true. The O2 sounds more clear and sterile - as an amp should.


 
   
  An O2 zealot....


----------



## bracko

I have been playing with my M-Stage for a couple of days. It is a remarkably well-made and it seems to have power to drive any headphone without any problems whatsoever. My HD650 sounds very fine indeed through this little amp and even my k701 is extraordinary clean and "weighty". I have also purchased a mint pair of k501 and they are on their way to me. I hope that even these (quiet, 94 dB) headphones can be properly powered by Matrix M-Stage.


----------



## WestLander

I had a K500 a while back, and it paired quite well with the M-Stage, I thought.


----------



## chicolom

I wanted to be able to tell where my volume knob is positioned in the dark, so I put a little soft foam bumper pad thing on it.


----------



## bracko

Quote: 





westlander said:


> I had a K500 a while back, and it paired quite well with the M-Stage, I thought.


 

 Thank you. I will probably be able to test it this evening


----------



## hifimanrookie

I had my now sold mstage burn in my pair of he500..to spare my 337.. And damn..he did a good job..it drove the he500 perfectly...and knowing he can drive that pair with gain on 10db am sure it can drive almost anything except for the even more difficult to drive headphone from the likes of he6.


----------



## Blackmore

Just wonder, when I read that M-Stage was inspired by BCL, does it mean they just stole the idea?
   
  THX


----------



## Chris J

Always the same thing.
The O2 is right, any other amp is wrong.

Wait a minute!
If the M Stage is a BCL knock off then the BCL must be shyte and bollocks too!

Hmmmmm........




blackmore said:


> Just wonder, when I read that M-Stage was inspired by BCL, does it mean they just stole the idea?
> 
> THX


----------



## Blackmore

Sorry for my ignorance, but whats O2?
   
  THX
   
   
  Quote:


chris j said:


> Always the same thing.
> The O2 is right, any other amp is wrong.
> 
> Wait a minute!
> ...


----------



## hifimanrookie

blackmore said:


> Just wonder, when I read that M-Stage was inspired by BCL, does it mean they just stole the idea?
> 
> THX



From what i understand its a clone..some even say the mstage sounds better..i dont know that..but i do know that bcl amp is known to be an excellent amp for the money also  so the mstage must be rediculously priced  in a good way..lolz


----------



## hifimanrookie

Lolz..i didnt know it also so when i heared it the first time.i found out .Its a diy amp... Check this website.


http://www.jdslabs.com/item.php?fetchitem=o2full


----------



## Taowolf51

Quote: 





blackmore said:


> Just wonder, when I read that M-Stage was inspired by BCL, does it mean they just stole the idea?
> 
> THX


 
  This is the BCL:

   
   
   
  And this is the original M-Stage:

   
  Looking at the Board layout, they're pretty much identical.
   
  However, in the past several years, the M-Stage has changed a bit (they upgrade it a bit each year):

   
  However, it's still very similar.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





blackmore said:


>


 
   
  Richie Blackmore (guitar player extraordinare!),
   
  The O2 is a DIY headphone amp, as The Rookie pointed out, but there are also 2 or 3 companies that can furnish you with a fully assembled O2.
   
  It's claim to fame is that someone decided to design a headphone amp _purely by measurements_, he does not seem to believe in listening tests.
  If you go on his website, you can see a very thorough set of lab measurements.
  It measures quite well!
  Apparently he has taken no money for this, anyone may build and sell the O2 without paying him royalties!
  He has not designed in expensive parts or fancy audiophile parts, so you see it selling for less than $200.00
*All very commendable!*
  I take my hat off to him.
   
  Obviously I have a bit of a problem when people assume that if the O2 sounds different than another amp, then the assumption is that the O2 is right, the other amp is wrong.
  There is one guy on Head Fi who had an O2 and an M Stage. He used AKG K70x or Q701s.
  He preferred the M Stage with the AKGs.
  He sounds like a reasonable guy, I have no reason to not accept & respect his opinion.
   
  OTOH, I own an Matrix M myself, I don't think it is perfect, but for what I paid for it, I'm happy! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  And here is the point of view of one Electrical Engineer on a very pessimistic day:
  "Since all headphone amplifiers are built using non-linear, imperfect devices, then all headphone amplifiers are imperfect.
  Pick your favourite imperfections, buy it and listen to it."
   
  C.


----------



## Satellite_6

Quote: 





westlander said:


> *Ahem*....As some people *prefer* an amp should


 
  *Ahem* ....As an amp should if you know anything about audio reproduction at all


----------



## WestLander

...Anyway, does anyone know why exactly the M-Stage does so well with the AKG family? What accounts for this sonic harmony?


----------



## Blackmore

Guys, I am sure M Stage sounds good for many users, otherwise, why they bought it in the first place, but Lehmann been around for many years and build the reputation as very professional company, which means a lot to me. I know BCL very well, fantastic performer, combines many things together that others just can dream of and  priced just right, so, when I see such brutal similarity, it doesnt do any good for me and even M Stage offers amazing performance, I will never buy one.
   
  Thanks everyone for explanation about O2 amp, I saw the thread, but never paid any attention, its very difficult to keep up these days, to many gear around.
   
  Happy listening.
   
  Quote:


hifimanrookie said:


> From what i understand its a clone..some even say the mstage sounds better..i dont know that..but i do know that bcl amp is known to be an excellent amp for the money also
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Quote: 





hifimanrookie said:


> Lolz..i didnt know it also so when i heared it the first time.i found out .Its a diy amp... Check this website.
> 
> 
> http://www.jdslabs.com/item.php?fetchitem=o2full


 
   
  Quote: 





taowolf51 said:


> This is the BCL:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Quote: 





chris j said:


> Richie Blackmore (guitar player extraordinare!),
> 
> The O2 is a DIY headphone amp, as The Rookie pointed out, but there are also 2 or 3 companies that can furnish you with a fully assembled O2.
> 
> ...


----------



## Taowolf51

Quote: 





blackmore said:


> Guys, I am sure M Stage sounds good for many users, otherwise, why they bought it in the first place, but Lehmann been around for many years and build the reputation as very professional company, which means a lot to me. I know BCL very well, fantastic performer, combines many things together that others just can dream of and  priced just right, so, when I see such brutal similarity, it doesnt do any good for me and even M Stage offers amazing performance, I will never buy one.
> 
> Thanks everyone for explanation about O2 amp, I saw the thread, but never paid any attention, its very difficult to keep up these days, to many gear around.
> 
> Happy listening.


 
   
  I can see where you're coming from. Truth be told, calling the M-Stage a chinese knockoff of the BCL isn't inaccurate. I think there are several reasons people do buy it, despite this. My personal reason was because the M-Stage is far and away the most recommended amp for the D7000's. I just wanted the best amp I could get for my headphones.
  However, some may even take the price difference as a moral reason why they would go with the M-Stage. Considering the fact that Matrix is selling an amp very close in design with comparable parts to the BCL for just about $1000 less could lead some to believe Lehmann is price gouging their customers. While I don't know enough to confidently state whether that is true or not, I can see how the thought arises.


----------



## hifimanrookie

taowolf51 said:


> I can see where you're coming from. Truth be told, calling the M-Stage a chinese knockoff of the BCL isn't inaccurate. I think there are several reasons people do buy it, despite this. My personal reason was because the M-Stage is far and away the most recommended amp for the D7000's. I just wanted the best amp I could get for my headphones.
> However, some may even take the price difference as a moral reason why they would go with the M-Stage. Considering the fact that Matrix is selling an amp very close in design with comparable parts to the BCL for just about $1000 less could lead some to believe Lehmann is price gouging their customers. While I don't know enough to confidently state whether that is true or not, I can see how the thought arises.



+1 i agree..that was also my reason to buy one to try how good it was..and damn..and good he was..if i didnt get my hands on my seriously good 337 the little mstage would still be my amp to use for my he500!


----------



## Blackmore

I remember the time when Lehmann was USD 780 and I believe its not that expensive in Europe as outside of it now, think of dealers profit only, so, the price tag isnt Lehmann fault only, but I am not in the position to make any justice for MSRP of any product, its to complicated and I left that battle field already.
   
  THX
  Quote: 





taowolf51 said:


> I can see where you're coming from. Truth be told, calling the M-Stage a chinese knockoff of the BCL isn't inaccurate. I think there are several reasons people do buy it, despite this. My personal reason was because the M-Stage is far and away the most recommended amp for the D7000's. I just wanted the best amp I could get for my headphones.
> However, some may even take the price difference as a moral reason why they would go with the M-Stage. Considering the fact that Matrix is selling an amp very close in design with comparable parts to the BCL for just about $1000 less could lead some to believe Lehmann is price gouging their customers. While I don't know enough to confidently state whether that is true or not, I can see how the thought arises.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





satellite_6 said:


> *Ahem* ....As an amp should if you know anything about audio reproduction at all


 
   
  Hey!
  Sometimes I like the colouration of a tube amp!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  Music for pleasure, I say.
  I have to enjoy what I am listening to, and if tubes get me there sometimes, well why not?
   
  Quote: 





westlander said:


> ...Anyway, does anyone know why exactly the M-Stage does so well with the AKG family? What accounts for this sonic harmony?


 
   
  There are those who claim the M Stage is dark sounding and this, um, colouration, um, compliments the bright Q701 sound. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  There are some who claim the O2 is too bright for the Q.
   
  Now look what we've started!   WW III!
   
   
  Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *Blackmore* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> 
> Guys, I am sure M Stage sounds good for many users, otherwise, why they bought it in the first place, but Lehmann been around for many years and build the reputation as very professional company, which means a lot to me. I know BCL very well, fantastic performer, combines many things together that others just can dream of and  priced just right, so, when I see such brutal similarity, it doesnt do any good for me and even M Stage offers amazing performance, I will never buy one.


 
   
  Blackmore,
  for some reason your stuff doesn't copy thru. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  Anyway.
  Hard to know what to say about the M Stage being a BCL clone.
  There is _*NOTHING*_ proprietary about the BCL circuit.
  Power supply: same old thing
  Amplifier:  BCL didn't invent the Op Amp followed by a discrete BJT output stage.
  There is no copyright or patent infringement here that I can see.
   
  It has been said that the M Stage uses cheaper components.
  Obviously labour is cheaper in China than in Germany (BCL is built in Germany?)
  Plus people buy M Stage on line, so no dealer mark up.
  But you cannot audition M Stage in a store.


----------



## hifimanrookie

But as far i know not one mstage owner was unhappy with his little amp..  so that says a lot in my book


----------



## elwappo99

Did anyone ever compare this to the Sheer HA-006 amplifier. I think it's a Dynalo unit.


----------



## musicisthekey

Would you recommend this amp with HE-400? If you do, what opamp would sound the best? Thanks.


----------



## hifimanrookie

musicisthekey said:


> Would you recommend this amp with HE-400? If you do, what opamp would sound the best? Thanks.



I had the he400 being driven perfectly by the mstage on gain 10db with opa627 class a mod

See www.tamaudio.com for more info bout this opamp


----------



## Taowolf51

Does anyone know the difference between the 627AU (single), 627AP (dual) and 627BP (dual)?


----------



## Chris J

taowolf51 said:


> Does anyone know the difference between the 627AU (single), 627AP (dual) and 627BP (dual)?




The M Stage uses a dual Op Amp.
All those versions will sound the same.
The A is a slightly higher grade, but will not make any difference in this application.


----------



## hifimanrookie

chris j said:


> The M Stage uses a dual Op Amp.
> All those versions will sound the same.
> The A is a slightly higher grade, but will not make any difference in this application.



On tamaudio there is a better version out..the opa637


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





taowolf51 said:


> Does anyone know the difference between the 627AU (single), 627AP (dual) and 627BP (dual)?


 
   
  Ooops, my bad.
   
  Not very clear
  You must use a dual Op Amp version for the M Stage.
   
  Quote: 





hifimanrookie said:


> On tamaudio there is a better version out..the opa637


 
   
  Eh?
  The OPA637 is NOT Unity Gain Stable.
  If you try to use this in the M Stage, you must have gain set to either 18 or 20 dB.
  At 0 or 10 dB gain, the Op Amp will oscillate.
   
  NOT GOOD!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Personally I would not use the OPA637 in a Matrix M Stage.
  The OPA627 has more than enough slew rate and bandwidth for a headphone amp
  You could unity gain stabilize the OPA637, but then it is basically an OPA627!


----------



## bracko

Quote: 





chris j said:


> The OPA637 is NOT Unity Gain Stable.
> If you try to use this in the M Stage, you must have gain set to either 18 or 20 dB.
> At 0 or 10 dB gain, the Op Amp will oscillate.


 
   
  I agree and believe that a dual type LM4562 for example would be a much better choice for an upgrade.


----------



## Taowolf51

Quote: 





chris j said:


> All those versions will sound the same.
> The A is a slightly higher grade, but will not make any difference in this application.


 
   
  If they all sound the same, what is the functional difference between them?
  So the AP is higher grade than the BP? It's cheaper too (at least at Tam Audio).
   
   



chris j said:


> Ooops, my bad.
> 
> Not very clear
> You must use a dual Op Amp version for the M Stage.


 

   
  So the 627's are mono op amps and must be used in a dual configuration? Because the stock op amp is a single one in the M-Stage.


----------



## Chris J

taowolf51 said:


> If they all sound the same, what is the functional difference between them?
> So the AP is higher grade than the BP? It's cheaper too (at least at Tam Audio).
> 
> So the 627's are mono op amps and must be used in a dual configuration? Because the stock op amp is a single one in the M-Stage.




Oops, my bad again!
very strange, the B is actually better!

The B grade has better input offset voltage and better input offset current specs. So you get lower DC offset at the Op Amp's output, but the DC offset at the output of the M Stage has a lot more to do with the discrete output stage following the Op Amp.
Noise is also slightly lower. Can you hear the noise thru your headphones?
I wouldn't bother paying extra for the B grade. Not all these parameters are ultra important to a good sounding headphone amp. Personally, I think the M Stage is quiet enough for my purposes.
I like what Mux says, the LM4562 is a good upgrade for the M Stage, I've tried a few Op Amps, including the OPA 627 and I prefer the LM4562.

In layman's terms, the stock Op Amp is stereo, so you only need one.
The OPA 627 series is mono, so you need two. The Tam Audio kits have two Op Amps built into the kits.


----------



## Taowolf51

Gotcha. Is the LM4562 a stereo or mono op amp? Are there any differences between different versions? (I'm looking at the NA version on TamAudio).


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





taowolf51 said:


> Gotcha. Is the LM4562 a stereo or mono op amp? Are there any differences between different versions? (I'm looking at the NA version on TamAudio).


 
  The NA is a drop in replacement for the stock Op Amp. It is a stereo (or dual!) Op Amp.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  The MA is a surface mount technology version.
   
  The HA is the metal can, expensive version, not really necessary for the M.


----------



## WestLander

Quote: 





chris j said:


> The HA is the metal can, expensive version, not really necessary for the M.


 
   
  I have the HA and it sounds wonderful!


----------



## jc89

I recently got my M-stage, and am really confused by it:
   
  1) Using iphone or PS3 as source, the Q701 sounds very unclear, rough, distant. However, the sound is balanced, and with good sound stage.
   
  1) I found my old ER4P earphone, and connect it to M-stage. Using the same source, the sound is clear, nothing like with Q701. However, the sound is very unbalanced: right side is a lot louder than the left side.
   
  2) ER4P sounds both clear and balanced when connecting directly to iphone.
   
  3) Q701 sounds balanced, but unclear with M-stage.
   
  4) I think both Q701 and ER4P are fine, since they sound right directly out of computer or iphone, so I assume the issue lies with Matrix??
   
   
   
  I'm sooooo confused.... what could be wrong??? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  PLEASE HELP!!!!


----------



## elwappo99

Quote: 





jc89 said:


> I recently got my M-stage, and am really confused by it:
> 
> 1) Using iphone or PS3 as source, the Q701 sounds very unclear, rough, distant. However, the sound is balanced, and with good sound stage.
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  What are your gain settings?


----------



## jc89

I set the gain to 0db, and the ER4P sounds fabulous now, but Q701 still has a pretty dissapointing SQ.
  I'm so surprised that using just 10dB gain would distort the sound so much... Is my unit potentially defective?
   
  Thanks!


----------



## WestLander

Quote: 





jc89 said:


> I set the gain to 0db, and the ER4P sounds fabulous now, but Q701 still has a pretty dissapointing SQ.
> I'm so surprised that using just 10dB gain would distort the sound so much... Is my unit potentially defective?
> 
> Thanks!


 
   
  How does it sound using the PS3 as opposed to your iphone as a source? Are you connecting your iphone through the lineout connection, or the headphone out?
   
  Does the Q701 still sound strange if you use just your PS3?
   
  If the M-Stage is the issue, it should sound poor with both headphones, not just the one..


----------



## jc89

That's the strange thing...
   
  The Q701 sounds clear and normal directly through iphone's or PC's headphone jack, so I would assume it's not Q701's issue...
   
  ER4P sounds normal with both PS3 and iphone as the source and M-stage in between, so I assume it's not the source or M-stage's issue...
   
  The only possible explanation is that Q701 _*requires*_ a better source than ER4P??
  With gain as 0db, PS3->M-stage->Q701, I have to push M-stage's volume almost all the way up. Is that normal, or an indication of bad source?
   
  Thanks!!


----------



## Taowolf51

Change the gain to 18 or 20 for something like the Q701


----------



## WestLander

Yes, the Q701 needs more gain than the ERP4 which is more efficient.


----------



## jc89

Thanks.
  Setting it to 20dB, the Q701 still sounds funny, and ER4P is unbalanced: left side is a lot more upfront than right.
   
  I will probably try to go to a local stereo store and find a better source to test Q701 again...
  Since it requires more power than ER4P to drive, it's possible that the distortion and amplification of source noise is much bigger, and thus the source needs to be much cleaner.... But based on what I read on this forum, that shouldn't be so dramatic... But again, I am not expecting different gain settings would mess up ER4P's balance, so anything is possible and only trial and error can tell...
   
  Will definitely report back when I do have a chance to test again.


----------



## elwappo99

Quote: 





jc89 said:


> Thanks.
> Setting it to 20dB, the Q701 still sounds funny, and ER4P is unbalanced: left side is a lot more upfront than right.
> 
> I will probably try to go to a local stereo store and find a better source to test Q701 again...
> ...


 
   
  This is very strange indeed. If you had the imbalance in both the headphones and earphones it would be easy to track down. Good luck!


----------



## musicbased

This is probably not it, but are you sure it's not the headphone socket on the M stage?-Occasionally my K701 sounds weird and unbalanced when i first plug them in, but when i give the headphone jack a little spin in the socket it becomes normal again..
  Just thought i would mention it.


----------



## hifimanrookie

musicbased said:


> This is probably not it, but are you sure it's not the headphone socket on the M stage?-Occasionally my K701 sounds weird and unbalanced when i first plug them in, but when i give the headphone jack a little spin in the socket it becomes normal again..
> Just thought i would mention it.



If tats the case then its faulty..it must be having bad connection to the board..i would contact seller and ask for repair/replacement.


----------



## musicbased

yeah i know.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  I'm looking into it. Just thought it might be a possible answer for jc89's problem too.


----------



## jc89

You save my day!!
  The problem is Q701's 3.5mm to 1/4 inch converter that comes with it!
   
  I changed it to the old one coming with my AKG 240, and it solves the issue! It works with DT880's converter, too.
   
  I'm so stupid.... in retrospect, the cause was quite obvious, when Q701 sounds better through iphone's 3.5mm headphone jack than M-stage's 1/4 inch output....
   
  Thank you musicbased!
   
  This is quite dissapointing on AKG's part... Good thing the headphone itself is not a lemon, just the converter...


----------



## jc89

about the unbalance... it's completely due to my noobiness and carelessness...
   
  I didn't realize that the two sets of gain controls are controlling left and right channels separately... I thought they are for input 1 and input 2 separately.
   
  I'm confused by this design though... Why would anyone want to have different volumes coming out from left and right sides?
  Are there any technical reason for this design? 
   
   
  Thanks!


----------



## hifimanrookie

jc89 said:


> about the unbalance... it's completely due to my noobiness and carelessness...
> 
> I didn't realize that the two sets of gain controls are controlling left and right channels separately... I thought they are for input 1 and input 2 separately.
> 
> ...



I dont know also...maybe just a joke of the designer?..but check my amp..its even worse!..i even have two volume knobs, two on-off switches and even two power cables..lolz..


----------



## elwappo99

Quote: 





hifimanrookie said:


> I dont know also...maybe just a joke of the designer?..but check my amp..its even worse!..i even have two volume knobs, two on-off switches and even two power cables..lolz..


 
   
  Many other amplifiers have this same design on the gain switches.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





jc89 said:


> about the unbalance... it's completely due to my noobiness and carelessness...
> 
> I didn't realize that the two sets of gain controls are controlling left and right channels separately... I thought they are for input 1 and input 2 separately.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Nobody wants two different volumes from left and right!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  They would have to use a more expensive switch than the little switches you see on the bottom of the M Stage.
  So you could say it keeps the costs down.
  Most people set gain to 10 dB with Q701 and leave it there.....forever.
   
  I just compared 5 different phone pre-amps, they all have that funny feature: separate switches for left and right.
  It's even worse, because you can adjust:
  input resistance
  input capacitance
  pre-amp gain
  subsonice filter
  but all switches are separate for left and right! 
  But once you set the switches the way you want them, you never change them unless you change to another phono cartridge.
   
  Seems to be  mark of passage for M Stage owners, they all need to mix up gain settings.


----------



## etys rule

Jc89, glad you got it figured out. Now open the case, remove the opamp, and replace with 637AP. I bet you'll like what you hear.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





etys rule said:


> Jc89, glad you got it figured out. Now open the case, remove the opamp, and replace with 637AP. I bet you'll like what you hear.


 
   
*Do NOT do this!*
   
  Under certain conditions (Gain set to 0 or 10 dB) the Op Amp will probably oscillate.
   
  Stick to the OPA627 or any other unity gain stable Op Amp.


----------



## hifimanrookie

chris j said:


> *Do NOT do this!*
> 
> Under certain conditions (Gain set to 0 or 10 dB) the Op Amp will probably oscillate.
> 
> Stick to the OPA627 or any other unity gain stable Op Amp.



To do or not..the opa627 sounds almost the same as opa637..and yes..the opa637 CAN oscillate on lower gains..its wellknown..it gets stabile on 18db and forth... So in my opinion the opa627 is a good update choice


----------



## bracko

Quote: 





chris j said:


> I like what Mux says, the LM4562 is a good upgrade for the M Stage, I've tried a few Op Amps, including the OPA 627 and I prefer the LM4562.


 
   
  I don't know though if the amp gets hotter with LM4562.


----------



## Wild

Quote: 





jc89 said:


> about the unbalance... it's completely due to my noobiness and carelessness...
> 
> I didn't realize that the two sets of gain controls are controlling left and right channels separately... I thought they are for input 1 and input 2 separately.
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  Quote: 





hifimanrookie said:


> I dont know also...maybe just a joke of the designer?..but check my amp..its even worse!..i even have two volume knobs, two on-off switches and even two power cables..lolz..


 
   
   
  Quote: 





chris j said:


> Nobody wants two different volumes from left and right!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  As far as headphones go, it's mostly for people with differing levels of hearing between their ears.  For example, I'd say I have maybe 85% hearing with my left ear compared to my right.  All I have to do is adjust the balance a bit towards the left speaker and voila my hearing is magically fixed


----------



## hifimanrookie

wild said:


> As far as headphones go, it's mostly for people with differing levels of hearing between their ears.  For example, I'd say I have maybe 85% hearing with my left ear compared to my right.  All I have to do is adjust the balance a bit towards the left speaker and voila my hearing is magically fixed



And in my case the two volume knobs are to correct possible inbalance of the tubes also


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





hifimanrookie said:


> To do or not..the opa627 sounds almost the same as opa637..and yes..the opa637 CAN oscillate on lower gains..its wellknown..it gets stabile on 18db and forth... So in my opinion the opa627 is a good update choice


 
   
  At 18 or 20 dB of gain they should sound identical.
  The difference between the two is academic when used for audio.
  So why use the OPA637?
  Be safe, use the OPA627.
  Quote: 





bracko said:


> I don't know though if the amp gets hotter with LM4562.


 
  The amp won't get any hotter if you use the LM4562, or stock Op Amp, or OPA627, or Class A mod OPA627.
   
  The amp will probably get hotter if you have an oscillating OPA637!


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Under certain conditions (Gain set to 0 or 10 dB) the Op Amp will probably oscillate.


 
   
  I find the oscillating gives a neat surround sound effect to the soundstage.


----------



## GaToMaLaCo

Quote: 





chicolom said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  That effect is nice actually. Specially with my beyer 990.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





chicolom said:


> I find the oscillating gives a neat surround sound effect to the soundstage.


 
  You or the Op Amp?


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





chris j said:


> You or the Op Amp?


 
   
  If we oscillate together the effect is stronger.


----------



## burrrcub

Something's wrong with my mstage.  I was sitting here and I started to smell something burning and started to sniff around.  No smoke coming out but an obvious burning smell coming out of my amp. I opened it up and the burnt smell is stronger but I dont' know which part of the board.  Everything looks fine to me.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





chicolom said:


> If we oscillate together the effect is stronger.


 
  sounds kinda kinky


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





burrrcub said:


> Something's wrong with my mstage.  I was sitting here and I started to smell something burning and started to sniff around.  No smoke coming out but an obvious burning smell coming out of my amp. I opened it up and the burnt smell is stronger but I dont' know which part of the board.  Everything looks fine to me.


 
  never a good thing, is it still under warranty?
   
  what happened before the burning smell?


----------



## burrrcub

Quote: 





chris j said:


> never a good thing, is it still under warranty?
> 
> what happened before the burning smell?


 
   
   Doubt I can get warranty since I bought it from another headfier.  Nothign happened before it started burning, it was on for a few hours looking pretty on my desk.


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





chris j said:


> sounds kinda kinky


 
   
  lol
   
  We try to climax (musically) at the same time.


----------



## Taowolf51

chicolom said:


> lol
> 
> We try to climax (musically) at the same time.


 
   
  Nice avatar, by the way.


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





taowolf51 said:


> Nice avatar, by the way.


 
   
  Thanks,
   
  ...consider it imagery to go with my last post...


----------



## elwappo99

If anyone's looking to upgrade and sell theirs, I'm trying to get one of these for my computer rig. PM me!


----------



## Chris J

chicolom said:


> lol
> 
> We try to climax (musically) at the same time.




We need to hook you up with Selena Gomez.........


----------



## bracko

What do you think about Matrix M-Stage + DT880 Edition 600 Ohms. Would Matrix provide sufficient voltage to these high impendance cans? Any experiences? Thanks.


----------



## Monir

Quote: 





bracko said:


> What do you think about Matrix M-Stage + DT880 Edition 600 Ohms. Would Matrix provide sufficient voltage to these high impendance cans? Any experiences? Thanks.


 

 Without a doubt, it powered my DT990 600ohm really well.


----------



## Monir

On another note, I had a terrible misfortune today.
   
  When I turned on my M-Stage, volume always set at 0% (10db) if I'm not listening, I left the room for 4 minutes. When I returned my entire room smelled like burnt plastic. I instantly powered off my DAC and amp and unplugged them both, taking each device out into different rooms. The M-Stage was definately the culprit as it gave away the horrible odour. Hopefully I managed to stop any fire since I didnt see any smoke rising. The M-Stage was not very hot to touch, it's been hotter before during 3h+ long playing sessions. But this time it did take a while for it to cool off.
   
  Contacted coolfungaget about this. Hopefully it didnt do any damage to my HD650s that were connected to the amp. But let us only hope.


----------



## Taowolf51

Jeez, after two instances of this now, I'm worried.


----------



## Monir

Quote: 





taowolf51 said:


> Jeez, after two instances of this now, I'm worried.


 

 Hm, who's the other unfortunate headfier(s)?


----------



## hifimanrookie

taowolf51 said:


> Jeez, after two instances of this now, I'm worried.



This is so weird..never heared of any problems with mstages...is the quality control on the new batches worse..or ...am afraid to say it..but..its funny this happens to products not bought directly at tamaudio..i had the first series..and never ever heard any problems with that version..only maybe the gain switches being switched..  so get urself a first version last series of that was sold beginning of 2012 i think..or buy at tamaudio. I am also so shocked of these occuring problems with the normallly solid mstage.


----------



## Monir

Quote: 





hifimanrookie said:


> This is so weird..never heared of any problems with mstages...is the quality control on the new batches worse..or ...am afraid to say it..but..its funny this happens to products not bought directly at tamaudio..i had the first series..and never ever heard any problems with that version..only maybe the gain switches being switched..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 coolfungadget is tamaudio.


----------



## hifimanrookie

monir said:


> coolfungadget is tamaudio.



Oh ok..didnt know that.. Then the quality control is not working wel there..or maybe the updated version is built worse then the older versions..it wouldnt be the first time that a brand 'upgrades' to other parts beccause its cheaper/ easier available..this is all guessingofcourse..i loved my mstage..i had it 2 years without a hitch..with at least 2 hours a day working..i can only say..it gave me a big smile on my face every time i used that little amp!


----------



## Monir

Quote: 





hifimanrookie said:


> Oh ok..didnt know that.. Then the quality control is not working wel there..or maybe the updated version is built worse then the older versions..it wouldnt be the first time that a brand 'upgrades' to other parts beccause its cheaper/ easier available..this is all guessingofcourse..i loved my mstage..i had it 2 years without a hitch..with at least 2 hours a day working..i can only say..it gave me a big smile on my face every time i used that little amp!


 

 To say the least I was a little disappointed with the packaging. I mean they used the original box as the shipping parcel. Shame, the box looks really classy/premium. I also liked the M-Stage especially with LM4562 op-amp. Just have to wait and see how they deal with return shipping. I've never had to send anything back before when buying from China/USA. It's gonna suck if I have to bite into expensive shipping costs :S


----------



## Taowolf51

Question, did you Class A bias your amp?


----------



## Monir

No, I was planning on it but postponed it. I've read that others here ran directly via the 4562 op-amp without any complications. However, I doubt it's due to the 4562 because 2 days ago I tried out the original opamp OPA2134 to see how it sounded in comparison since I havent heard it in a while. Yesterday it was running fine. Today afternoon it worked fine. When I come home to power it on for more this happens.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





bracko said:


> What do you think about Matrix M-Stage + DT880 Edition 600 Ohms. Would Matrix provide sufficient voltage to these high impendance cans? Any experiences? Thanks.


 
  I have that combo.
  The Matrix M has absolutely no problem driving the DT880/600 Ohms to any insane volume you may want.
  Personally, I don't like the sound of it too much. A bit too dry, bland and uninvolving for me.
  I get more pleasure out of listening to the DT880/600 out of a FiiO E09K (costs half the $$$!).
  Out of the stuff I own I usually prefer the DT880/600 Ohm with my La Figaro 336C, which is an OTL tube amp.


----------



## elwappo99

Quote: 





monir said:


> No, I was planning on it but postponed it. I've read that others here ran directly via the 4562 op-amp without any complications. However, I doubt it's due to the 4562 because 2 days ago I tried out the original opamp OPA2134 to see how it sounded in comparison since I havent heard it in a while. Yesterday it was running fine. Today afternoon it worked fine. When I come home to power it on for more this happens.


 
   
  Very surprising to hear! Wonder if there's any pattern between the two head-fiers who had this issue (possibly in power input) ?


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





elwappo99 said:


> Very surprising to hear! Wonder if there's any pattern between the two head-fiers who had this issue (possibly in power input) ?


 
   
  He had the volume down at Zee-ro went his "event" happened.
   
  Not too sure what you mean by "Power Input"?  The 120 Vac line?  He mentioned that his DAC "survived".
   
  Hmmmm, guess I better not leave my M on and unattended.
   
_*Remember, that thing ain't UL approved! No CE mark either. No safety approvals of any kind.*_


----------



## elwappo99

Quote: 





chris j said:


> He had the volume down at Zee-ro went his "event" happened.
> 
> Not too sure what you mean by "Power Input"?  The 120 Vac line?  He mentioned that his DAC "survived".
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  Hrmm, I doubt this would happen if Monir were running this on a 120Vac line


----------



## Monir

220/240
   
  And I'm kind of glad I stepped out for a moment to fetch a drink of water, otherwise it probably would've taken a longer time for me to notice the change in smell and something worse could've happened. Usually the nose gets accustomed to the change of smell in the air if it's progressive; or maybe that's just me. Anyway, I'm not gonna plug it in again and find out if it's fine. It's been more than an hour now and it still smells like a burnt plastic bag.


----------



## Monir

Oh and also, mine is CE marked


----------



## elwappo99

Quote: 





monir said:


> Oh and also, mine is CE marked


 
   
  If this amp had an UL listing it would cost three times as much, and in all likelihood wouldn't exist.


----------



## Taowolf51

Mine is CE marked as well. 2012 version.
   
   



elwappo99 said:


> If this amp had an UL listing it would cost three times as much, and in all likelihood wouldn't exist.


 

   
  Why is that?


----------



## elwappo99

Quote: 





taowolf51 said:


> Why is that?


 
   
   
  UL costs tens of thousands upfront, and requires even more every year to 'maintain' the listing. This all adds up to a lot very quickly, not to mention in a device like this, not only does the layout of the components need to get approved but every component also does.  UL helps "peace of mind", and a lot of times the device is just as safe before testing as it is after, so you're just paying extra for it. This could be argued all day though.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





monir said:


> Oh and also, mine is CE marked


 
  A good thing!
  Your insurance company will be impressed!


----------



## burrrcub

monir said:


> Hm, who's the other unfortunate headfier(s)?




Me a few days ago. It was on and unused for a few hours then I smell burning. It still works but I'm more concern about leaving it in unless I need sound.


----------



## burrrcub

The burning smell is gone now but I still don't know what caused it. The fuses look fine and no distinguishable burnt marks on the board.


----------



## GaToMaLaCo

Quote: 





burrrcub said:


> The burning smell is gone now but I still don't know what caused it. The fuses look fine and no distinguishable burnt marks on the board.


 
  Maybe some resistor gone too hot. Can you take some pics from above without the up cover please? Maybe we can see "something". 
   
  PD: I love pics from internal circuitry


----------



## burrrcub

Here was one I took immediately after I smell the burning.  I can take better ones when I get home.


----------



## Taowolf51

Can you source the location of the smell? Any specific area on the board it is stronger in?


----------



## bracko

Quote: 





burrrcub said:


> The burning smell is gone now but I still don't know what caused it. The fuses look fine and no distinguishable burnt marks on the board.


 

 Did you use any OP-mod or any other mod of any kind? Monir had an LM4562 OP in his amp.


----------



## burrrcub

Mine was stock until tonight.  My 627AP came in from tamaudio.  No smell yet.


----------



## hifimanrookie

monir said:


> To say the least I was a little disappointed with the packaging. I mean they used the original box as the shipping parcel. Shame, the box looks really classy/premium. I also liked the M-Stage especially with LM4562 op-amp. Just have to wait and see how they deal with return shipping. I've never had to send anything back before when buying from China/USA. It's gonna suck if I have to bite into expensive shipping costs :S



U did a opamp mod? I heared of people killing their amps because of static energy..did u use some kind of anti static gloves to exchange the opamp? Hope it will be solved soon..maybe a tip..put the original opamp back into the amp before sending it back..some brands dont like their amps being modded and then denying any warranty. I do know the mstage runs warmer with the class a mod. Good luck with it


----------



## Monir

Tried plugging it back in again to see if it worked. It didnt. It just gave away an audible noise no matter what volume was set on (and even set it to 0db) - no music was heard when files where played. This was with the original op-amp still intact. So I shut it off again before anything worse could happen.


----------



## bracko

monir said:


> Tried plugging it back in again to see if it worked. It didnt. It just gave away an audible noise no matter what volume was set on (and even set it to 0db) - no music was heard when files where played. This was with the original op-amp still intact. So I shut it off again before anything worse could happen.


 Was the amp modded when it started to smell?


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





hifimanrookie said:


> U did a opamp mod? I heared of people killing their amps because of static energy..did u use some kind of anti static gloves to exchange the opamp? Hope it will be solved soon..maybe a tip..put the original opamp back into the amp before sending it back..some brands dont like their amps being modded and then denying any warranty. I do know the mstage runs warmer with the class a mod. Good luck with it


 
   
  TamAudio sells a lot of drop in replacements for the stock Op Amp.
  I doubt they would deny you a warranty claim if you had installed one of the replacement Op Amps they offer.
   
  You need a grounded Anti-static wrist band, if you really want to be safe when swapping Op amps. And unplug the amp from the wall AC.
   
  The M Stage does not actually run any warmer if you put in a Class A modded Op Amp. The additional current draw from the Op Amp is insignificant.


----------



## hifimanrookie

chris j said:


> TamAudio sells a lot of drop in replacements for the stock Op Amp.
> I doubt they would deny you a warranty claim if you had installed one of the replacement Op Amps they offer.
> 
> You need a grounded Anti-static wrist band, if you really want to be safe when swapping Op amps. And unplug the amp from the wall AC.
> ...




Correct about the bracelet and unplugging..and correct bout tamaudio selling mods themselves..but..if they do find out the problem comes from the opamp it will be hard for the customer to prove they didnt make the error..thats what i meant.
Well actually..my mstage ran hotter with the opa627 class a mod..never had problems though..but i believe i read about the heat thingie also in a review somewhere..as that review. Made me mod mine also  but they also said it wasnt an issue..


----------



## Monir

Quote: 





bracko said:


> Was the amp modded when it started to smell?


 

 No it wasnt modded


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





hifimanrookie said:


> Correct about the bracelet and unplugging..and correct bout tamaudio selling mods themselves..but..if they do find out the problem comes from the opamp it will be hard for the customer to prove they didnt make the error..thats what i meant.
> Well actually..my mstage ran hotter with the opa627 class a mod..never had problems though..but i believe i read about the heat thingie also in a review somewhere..as that review. Made me mod mine also
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  The nerds answer:   
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  How do you know it ran hotter?
  To determine this, you measure the ambient air temperature, measure the air temperature inside the M Stage, measure the temperature of various components inside the M Stage.
  And you have to do this twice, once with the original Op Amp (or an unmodded Op Amp) and one more time with the Class A modded Op Amp.  And you have to ensure nothing else has changed, no air drafts, let the amp run for 4 hours before you measure temperature so temperature has stabilized. Do not change load. You would have to either input pink noise or nothing, you can't use music easily, because it is always changing in level.
  If you didn't do this, you can't really say the temperature *really* increased!      
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  I don't think anyone here would actually do this.
  I know I wouldn't!  Too much work.
  And I don't have all that equipment!  LOL


----------



## GaToMaLaCo

Look at those resistors!!! they are really burned. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Thats where the smell was comming from. 
   
  Here is mine: (an old picture actually  )


----------



## hifimanrookie

chris j said:


> The nerds answer:   :wink_face:
> How do you know it ran hotter?
> To determine this, you measure the ambient air temperature, measure the air temperature inside the M Stage, measure the temperature of various components inside the M Stage.
> And you have to do this twice, once with the original Op Amp (or an unmodded Op Amp) and one more time with the Class A modded Op Amp.  And you have to ensure nothing else has changed, no air drafts, let the amp run for 4 hours before you measure temperature so temperature has stabilized. Do not change load. You would have to either input pink noise or nothing, you can't use music easily, because it is always changing in level.
> ...



Non nerds answer  : i did a one on one test with the two opamps inside..and i let them run for 3 hours then let them cool down for an hour and try the other.. And then put my hand on top of my amp..and for me the time i had the standard opamp the amp felt not warm at all..but the modded one felt with some warmth... Maybe it was my mind playing with me..dont know.. But as i said..i used the mstage for 2 years every day without any problems..sold it in november..and i understand its still working perfectly with the new owner..and its version 1.. Without the holes in the sides...


----------



## Monir

Quote: 





gatomalaco said:


> Look at those resistors!!! they are really burned.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 It's all part of the burn-in process, obviously


----------



## burrrcub

So how do I go about getting those two resistors replaced?


----------



## hifimanrookie

monir said:


> It's all part of the burn-in process, obviously :etysmile:



Over-burn-in


----------



## Chris J

burrrcub said:


> So how do I go about getting those two resistors replaced?




Probably much more to it than you fried a couple of resistors, you probably baked a few other components too......


----------



## Chris J

hifimanrookie said:


> Non nerds answer  : i did a one on one test with the two opamps inside..and i let them run for 3 hours then let them cool down for an hour and try the other.. And then put my hand on top of my amp..and for me the time i had the standard opamp the amp felt not warm at all..but the modded one felt with some warmth... Maybe it was my mind playing with me..dont know.. But as i said..i used the mstage for 2 years every day without any problems..sold it in november..and i understand its still working perfectly with the new owner..and its version 1.. Without the holes in the sides...




Version 1 without holes, that's what I have.

Runs hot no matter what Op Amp I use!


----------



## burrrcub

Well the amp still works so I'll just use it until my house burns down and I have a Magni sitting here as a backup amp.


----------



## Monir

Has anyone ever had to return anything to Tam Audio before? I've made an inquiry about return/warranty on the M-Stage but no response for 2 days now. While another unrelated question regarding a different amp was answered almost immediately.


----------



## Blackmore

Check their Terms&Conditions, not much there, but some that you may want to know
   
   
  Quote:


monir said:


> Has anyone ever had to return anything to Tam Audio before? I've made an inquiry about return/warranty on the M-Stage but no response for 2 days now. While another unrelated question regarding a different amp was answered almost immediately.


----------



## Monir

Quote: 





blackmore said:


>


 

 Yeah I've read that, pretty much what it says on their Ebay page.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





elwappo99 said:


> UL costs tens of thousands upfront, and requires even more every year to 'maintain' the listing. This all adds up to a lot very quickly, not to mention in a device like this, not only does the layout of the components need to get approved but every component also does.  UL helps "peace of mind", and a lot of times the device is just as safe before testing as it is after, so you're just paying extra for it. This could be argued all day though.


 
   
  Been pondering this for the last day or two.
   
  This is like saying we don't need a police force because most people are law abiding citizens, so why do we need police? Oh, and BTW, they are really expensive!
   
  As you point out, a lot of times the device is just as safe before testing as it is after.
  What about those products that had to be re-engineered to meet UL?


----------



## elwappo99

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Been pondering this for the last day or two.
> 
> This is like saying we don't need a police force because most people are law abiding citizens, so why do we need police? Oh, and BTW, they are really expensive!
> 
> ...


 
  Haha! Glad I gave you something to ponder. 
   
  I think my point was that in many cases UL isn't necessary for a lot of products, but UL has weaseled themselves into a position where a product is expected to have it. Many times it ends up providing a pretty serious barrier to entry, and in the end the consumer pays for what often isn't even necessary.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





elwappo99 said:


> Haha! Glad I gave you something to ponder.
> 
> I think my point was that in many cases UL isn't necessary for a lot of products, but UL has weaseled themselves into a position where a product is expected to have it. Many times it ends up providing a pretty serious barrier to entry, and in the end the consumer pays for what often isn't even necessary.


 
   
  So I pondered this a bit more.............
   
  I come at this from a UL electrical safety background; I've had a few products UL and/or CSA approved.
  Some of this equipment was installed in outdoor enclosures so they tested to ensure that the enclosures would not leak after was in service for 10 years!
  They often found something that was not quite right, and they also have the facilities for performing outdoor equipment enviromental testing.
  In addition, it gave our customers peace of mind.
  A multi-national company would not want to buy a piece of electrical equipment from us just based on our claim that it was safe.
  For any piece of electrical equipment hooked up to 120 Vac it is nice to know that it won't burn the house down and you won't get an electrical shock if you touch it.
   
  OTOH, you point out that they have weaseled themselves into testing other products. I can only imagine. Ultra safe pencils? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  I can't really comment on that!


----------



## bracko

A couuple of days ago i modded my matrix with lm4562. I am not really sure that i like the sound. The sound is too bright with my akg cans. The bass is leaner and the treble is more forward. The sound is cleaner a bit and my hd650 sound a bit clearer. Do you believe burn-in will change anything?


----------



## Monir

Quote: 





bracko said:


> A couuple of days ago i modded my matrix with lm4562. I am not really sure that i like the sound. The sound is too bright with my akg cans. The bass is leaner and the treble is more forward. The sound is cleaner a bit and my hd650 sound a bit clearer. Do you believe burn-in will change anything?


 

 I can attest to a certain change in sound when using mine. In the start it felt too bright, but after 20h+ it felt as if it darkened a bit. The treble was smoother and the bass felt as if it extended slightly more. I wouldn't call the sound more controlled, but more open and smoother. The change wasn't that big I think, but it was definitaly noticable; unless it was me getting used to the sound. But I actually felt that it sounded more mellow/darker than my LDMKIII, but at the expense of a bit tighter soundstage.


----------



## bracko

Quote: 





monir said:


> I can attest to a certain change in sound when using mine. In the start it felt too bright, but after 20h+ it felt as if it darkened a bit. The treble was smoother and the bass felt as if it extended slightly more. I wouldn't call the sound more controlled, but more open and smoother. The change wasn't that big I think, but it was definitaly noticable; unless it was me getting used to the sound. But I actually felt that it sounded more mellow/darker than my LDMKIII, but at the expense of a bit tighter soundstage.


 

 Thanks. How is the bass response compared to the Little Dot, with and without mod?


----------



## Monir

Quote: 





bracko said:


> Thanks. How is the bass response compared to the Little Dot, with and without mod?


 

 Someone might disagree with me, but to my ears it felt as if there was more bass extension on the M-Stage. Now I can't recollect exactly how it differed with the stock op-amp, since the amp got fried, remember 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  For the LD I used Mullard M8100/CV4010 which are considered to be rather bass oriented, but it still felt as if there was more slam and more presence on the M-Stage. I think output power could have some play in this? Although IIRC both have approx the same mW @ 300ohm (when using HD650). With the PRO900 I basically had to use the M-Stage, but then it also benefited from damping.
   
  Overall if I should compare the two I would say the LDMKIII is mellow and smooth and more open. The M-Stage sounds almost a tad darker and thus it felt as if the bass had more body at the expense of treble and soundstage. Consequently I sold the Little Dot cause I felt it was a bit too bright even with my HD650 with silver drivers.


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





bracko said:


> A couuple of days ago i modded my matrix with lm4562. I am not really sure that i like the sound. The sound is too bright with my akg cans. The bass is leaner and the treble is more forward. The sound is cleaner a bit and my hd650 sound a bit clearer. Do you believe burn-in will change anything?


 
   
  I don't think that chip should be paired with K/Q701 without a 0.1uF ceramic C0G/NP0 capacitor soldered across the power pins.  Otherwise, ouch bright treble and lean bass.


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





burrrcub said:


> Well the amp still works so I'll just use it until my house burns down and I have a Magni sitting here as a backup amp.


 
   
  No!  You will probably bake the opamp(s) next after they die for good, then your headphones will go _poof!_ after that.  We should first figure out what's wrong with the PSU.  Did you ever put an opamp in backwards?


----------



## bracko

Quote: 





mad max said:


> I don't think that chip should be paired with K/Q701 without a 0.1uF ceramic C0G/NP0 capacitor soldered across the power pins.  Otherwise, ouch bright treble and lean bass.


 

 Not only k701 sounds brighter in treble and leaner in bass. Even hd650 does and even my friend's DT880. What is acomplished by soldering that capacitor? Smoothing of some kind? Or is it low-pass filtering?


----------



## Monir

Good news. I think I fixed my M-Stage. When I decided to switch op-amp again I noticed it wasn't seated properly.
   
  My only two concerns however are 1) the horrid stench I had to endure a few days back and 2) the customer service at Tam Audio. I still haven't gotten any response on my inquiry about returning it, and this makes me anxious cause I had planned on buying a Sabre A18 from them, and considering it's a pretty expensive amplifier I would most definitely need the customer service to back me up just in case I run into any complications with it.


----------



## Chris J

bracko said:


> Not only k701 sounds brighter in treble and leaner in bass. Even hd650 does and even my friend's DT880. What is acomplished by soldering that capacitor? Smoothing of some kind? Or is it low-pass filtering?




Power supply noise filtering.
RFI/EMI.


----------



## problemanema

hi there guys.i could use some help. I get the humming without any source connected the to the M-stage so I do believe that it is an issue with the amp. i dont really want to send it to china and wait 2 months. is there anything i can do to fix the problem?


----------



## bracko

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Power supply noise filtering.
> RFI/EMI.


 

 OK, I understand. Do you use it in yours? I see that you have q701 which is quite similar to k701.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





bracko said:


> OK, I understand. Do you use it in yours? I see that you have q701 which is quite similar to k701.


 
   
  No I don't.
  Maybe I'll try it out sometime!


----------



## bracko

chris j said:


> No I don't.
> Maybe I'll try it out sometime!




OK  But don't you think this op is a bit too bright? Maybe it needs a bit burn-in.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





bracko said:


> OK
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Maybe I'm a closet treblehead or something like that, but no, I don't find the LM4562 to be too bright.
  Dunno, you could try the burn in thing.
  I like the clarity.
  I guess you might like a Class A modded OPA627?
  I seem to remember thinking it was a bit too warm.


----------



## hifimanrookie

chris j said:


> Maybe I'm a closet treblehead or something like that, but no, I don't find the LM4562 to be too bright.
> Dunno, you could try the burn in thing.
> I like the clarity.
> I guess you might like a Class A modded OPA627?
> I seem to remember thinking it was a bit too warm.



Yep the opa627 class a mod is a bit warmer sounding.


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





bracko said:


> Not only k701 sounds brighter in treble and leaner in bass. Even hd650 does and even my friend's DT880. What is acomplished by soldering that capacitor? Smoothing of some kind? Or is it low-pass filtering?


 
   
  Improved stability.  Gets rid of FR inconsistencies, loose or lean bass, and more.  You just get improved sound, there's really no downside to it unless you like coloration, and more improvement than class-A biasing could ever do with any modern opamp.
  A LPF would have to be thrown into the signal path, not power supplies.
   
  I take it a little farther with my favorite chips.
   
  Edit: I really doubt that burn-in applies to chips much.  I've never been able to hear a difference except with AD797.
(Although I think that that was just my imagination, lol.)


----------



## bracko

Quote: 





mad max said:


> Improved stability.  Gets rid of FR inconsistencies, loose or lean bass, and more.  You just get improved sound, there's really no downside to it unless you like coloration, and more improvement than class-A biasing could ever do with any modern opamp.
> A LPF would have to be thrown into the signal path, not power supplies.
> 
> I take it a little farther with my favorite chips.
> ...


 

 Thanks. It sounds interesting. I suppose you mean soldering a capacitor between pins 4 and 7? Wouldn't it be practically easier to make this bypass somwhere in the rectifier part of the amplifier?
   
  I have never heard any benefits either when it comes to electronic parts, not more than an hour or so.


----------



## fuzzybaffy

I've been trying to decide what gain setting to use the M-Stage when paired with the Sennheiser HD-650...
   
  Does the gain essentially determined the power output of the amp? For instance, would setting the gain at its max (20 db), mean the amp is outputting power to its maximum? If so, since the amp can output and power up to 600 ohm headphones, would setting the gain at 20 db mean the amp is always outputting 600 ohm at that setting?
   
  Or is power output just determined by how much the headphone needs at the moment?
   
  I ask, because currently I kind of prefer the HD-650 with the gain at 20 db with the M-Stage, but I'm afraid this might be outputting too much power (more specifically, the 600 ohms, as mentioned earlier) to the headphones.


----------



## bracko

Quote: 





fuzzybaffy said:


> I've been trying to decide what gain setting to use the M-Stage when paired with the Sennheiser HD-650...
> 
> Does the gain essentially determined the power output of the amp? For instance, would setting the gain at its max (20 db), mean the amp is outputting power to its maximum? If so, since the amp can output and power up to 600 ohm headphones, would setting the gain at 20 db mean the amp is always outputting 600 ohm at that setting?
> 
> ...


 
   
  Hi. The ohm value is the impedance of the headphones, a sort of "resistance" they give to the rest of the circuit (in this case the amplifier). The higher the impedance the more voltage (and the less current) the headphones need to reach the same power level because the power is, in a sense, a ratio between voltage and resistance (impedance). A certain power is needed to reach a certain sound level (dB). Increasing the gain you are practically increasing the voltage at given setting of a volume potentiometer. At the same time there is more distortion from the circuit.


----------



## derbigpr

Quote: 





fuzzybaffy said:


> I've been trying to decide what gain setting to use the M-Stage when paired with the Sennheiser HD-650...
> 
> Does the gain essentially determined the power output of the amp? For instance, would setting the gain at its max (20 db), mean the amp is outputting power to its maximum? If so, since the amp can output and power up to 600 ohm headphones, would setting the gain at 20 db mean the amp is always outputting 600 ohm at that setting?
> 
> ...


 
   
   
   
  Whenever you have selectable gain settings, its always the best thing to leave the gain as low as possible.  So, dont put the gain all the way up and then have the volume knob at 20-30% because everything above is too loud.  Rather put the gain as low as possible. If the sound is not loud enough for you when you have the volume knob close to 100%, or turned all the way up, then increase the gain.


----------



## fuzzybaffy

Quote: 





bracko said:


> Hi. The ohm value is the impedance of the headphones, a sort of "resistance" they give to the rest of the circuit (in this case the amplifier). The higher the impedance the more voltage (and the less current) the headphones need to reach the same power level because the power is, in a sense, a ratio between voltage and resistance (impedance). A certain power is needed to reach a certain sound level (dB). Increasing the gain you are practically increasing the voltage at given setting of a volume potentiometer. At the same time there is more distortion from the circuit.


 
   
  I see. Thanks for letting me know. So basically, the ohm value determines how much voltage the headphone requires from the amp to achieve a certain volume level. 
   
  Are the voltage increases a gradual thing, with respect to the actual volume? Or is it just a constant setting, according to the gain setting?
   
   
    
   
  Quote:


derbigpr said:


> Whenever you have selectable gain settings, its always the best thing to leave the gain as low as possible.  So, dont put the gain all the way up and then have the volume knob at 20-30% because everything above is too loud.  Rather put the gain as low as possible. If the sound is not loud enough for you when you have the volume knob close to 100%, or turned all the way up, then increase the gain.


 
   
   
  Why? Does it do damage to the headphones?


----------



## bracko

Quote: 





fuzzybaffy said:


> I see. Thanks for letting me know. So basically, the ohm value determines how much voltage the headphone requires from the amp to achieve a certain volume level.
> 
> Are the voltage increases a gradual thing, with respect to the actual volume? Or is it just a constant setting, according to the gain setting?


 
   
  It's a gradual thing depending on volume setting.


----------



## fuzzybaffy

Quote: 





bracko said:


> It's a gradual thing depending on volume setting.


 
   
  I see. Sorry, one more question.
   
  So does this mean the amp is providing the same amount of power to the headphones, if the actual volume is the same, across different gain settings? So, different gain settings, but the same actual volume means the power is still the same?


----------



## bracko

Quote: 





fuzzybaffy said:


> I see. Sorry, one more question.
> 
> So does this mean the amp is providing the same amount of power to the headphones, if the actual volume is the same, across different gain settings? So, different gain settings, but the same actual volume means the power is still the same?


 

 Yes


----------



## fuzzybaffy

Quote: 





bracko said:


> Yes


 
   


 I see... then... (sorry, one more question...) What accounts for the different sound at different gain settings, but same volume? Because, it seems to me the 10 db setting sounds a little different than the 20 db setting (at the same volumes). Is it just my imagination, or are there other factors besides just power in that situation?


----------



## Mad Max

bracko said:


> Thanks. It sounds interesting. I suppose you mean soldering a capacitor between pins 4 and 7? Wouldn't it be practically easier to make this bypass somwhere in the rectifier part of the amplifier?
> 
> I have never heard any benefits either when it comes to electronic parts, not more than an hour or so.




Oh no, datasheets always say to place ceramic capacitors directly onto the power pins if possible. 4 & 7 for singles, 4 & 8 for duals like OPA1652 and LM4562. If the cap is too far away, it becomes pointless. We're talking millimeters here, aluminum electrolytics (the big cylinders) and film caps (tantalums, polyesters, & metallized polypropylene) are the ones that can be placed a greater distance away.


----------



## chicolom

Matrix's official website got a sexy redesign.
   
  http://www.matrix-digi.com/


----------



## chicolom

Heads up,
   
  I want to trade my 2012 Matrix M-stage with built-in USB DAC for a regular model _without_ the DAC.
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/648798/wtt-my-matrix-m-stage-usb-for-your-m-stage-non-usb


----------



## Bensen

Hey, so far I like the amp a lot but one thing is bothering me..
   
  I experience a buzzing (which grows in volume) when turning the knob of the M-stage to 9 o'clock and further. When I pull out the cables in the output, which go to my stereo, I don't get any buzz at all though!

 When i choose another gain setting the buzz is amplified as well, so that's no solution.

 How can i fix that? The cable I use should be shielded pretty good - it's not one of the very cheap ones... Or is it a fault in the M-stage?
 Because then I'll return the amp to the ebay seller i got it from.. 

 What gain setting would you recommend for driving the q701 by the way?
  
  Another thing that's rather weird: the channels are swapped when I plug in everything correctly, I had to swap red and white at the input.
   
  Thanks for any answer. Cheers!
  Ben


----------



## Fearless1

Quote: 





bensen said:


> Hey, so far I like the amp a lot but one thing is bothering me..
> 
> I experience a buzzing (which grows in volume) when turning the knob of the M-stage to 9 o'clock and further. When I pull out the cables in the output, which go to my stereo, I don't get any buzz at all though!
> 
> ...


 
  Tighten up the middle screw on the bottom of the amp, I have no clue why, but that took the buzz away on mine.


----------



## Bensen

Thanks for the answer but that didn't work (would have been funny though)...
   
  I should maybe add that it's an OPA627 Class A modded version of the amp.
   
  Any other suggestions?


----------



## Mad Max

It's whatever equipment that you are hooking up to the M-Stage if disconnecting it from the amp makes it go away.


----------



## bracko

Quote: 





mad max said:


> It's whatever equipment that you are hooking up to the M-Stage if disconnecting it from the amp makes it go away.


 

 I agree.


----------



## Monir

I would agree with the others on that buzz issue - most likely an effect of ground loop.


----------



## hifimanrookie

Quote: 





bensen said:


> Hey, so far I like the amp a lot but one thing is bothering me..
> 
> I experience a buzzing (which grows in volume) when turning the knob of the M-stage to 9 o'clock and further. When I pull out the cables in the output, which go to my stereo, I don't get any buzz at all though!
> 
> ...


 
  I had this buzz sometimes also..a little tap on the top solved it..am not kidding here! Until now i really dont understand that..i woud be listening to my music and then a very very light humm/buzz.. One small tap..and away it went.. I have a feeling its about earthing or something..me touching it balanced the grounding of the amp..or something..but still until today i found t weird! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Good luck with urs


----------



## 1llest

How is this amp paired with a DT880? I will be picking the beyer soon and will need to pick an amp asap.
   
  This is what its gonna be Titanium HD > M-Stage > Beyer
  Will be good enough?


----------



## Fearless1

Quote: 





hifimanrookie said:


> I had this buzz sometimes also..a little tap on the top solved it..am not kidding here! Until now i really dont understand that..i woud be listening to my music and then a very very light humm/buzz.. One small tap..and away it went.. I have a feeling its about earthing or something..me touching it balanced the grounding of the amp..or something..but still until today i found t weird!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Exactly what mine does! I then tightened the bottom screw and it went away permanently.


----------



## Fearless1

Quote: 





1llest said:


> How is this amp paired with a DT880? I will be picking the beyer soon and will need to pick an amp asap.
> 
> This is what its gonna be Titanium HD > M-Stage > Beyer
> Will be good enough?


 
  Should sound very good, the warmness of the M-stage will compliment the Dt880s.


----------



## Monir

Quote: 





1llest said:


> How is this amp paired with a DT880? I will be picking the beyer soon and will need to pick an amp asap.
> 
> This is what its gonna be Titanium HD > M-Stage > Beyer
> Will be good enough?


 

 I think it's a good pairing if you had wanted a warmer presentation since the beyers are a little bright to begin with. Even better is to roll with Class A op-amp modding with LM4562 and OPA627. But if you want a neutral representation, then O2 is a better alternative. IMO the M-Stage will drive the beyers very well - but taste and personal preference has a major role in the discussion of amp/HP pairing.


----------



## kazaakas

Quote: 





1llest said:


> How is this amp paired with a DT880? I will be picking the beyer soon and will need to pick an amp asap.
> 
> This is what its gonna be Titanium HD > M-Stage > Beyer
> Will be good enough?


 

 Great choice, the HD and the M-Stage are both warm sounding equipment which neutralizes the DT880's a fair bit.


----------



## hifimanrookie

Quote: 





kazaakas said:


> Great choice, the HD and the M-Stage are both warm sounding equipment which neutralizes the DT880's a fair bit.


 
  +1 i agree with the mstage


----------



## i love audio

Hi im from the uk i have a matrix m stage and akg q 701.I whant to get opa627 i see there is a seller on ebay called coolbaby11.is his opa627 op amps real or fake and is he a good seller.Thank you for any help.


----------



## Monir

Quote: 





i love audio said:


> Hi im from the uk i have a matrix m stage and akg q 701.I whant to get opa627 i see there is a seller on ebay called coolbaby11.is his opa627 op amps real or fake and is he a good seller.Thank you for any help.


 

 I can't say anything about coolbaby11 since I was uncertain about the seller. I think most people here on Head-fi would recommend Tam Audio which is called coolfungadget on Ebay with a very high rating / trusted Ebay seller.
   
  Alternatively you can visit their online store where they actually sell the OPA627 Class A op-amp mod: http://tamaudio.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&filter_name=opa627&product_id=91


----------



## hifimanrookie

Quote: 





monir said:


> I can't say anything about coolbaby11 since I was uncertain about the seller. I think most people here on Head-fi would recommend Tam Audio which is called coolfungadget on Ebay with a very high rating / trusted Ebay seller.
> 
> Alternatively you can visit their online store where they actually sell the OPA627 Class A op-amp mod: http://tamaudio.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&filter_name=opa627&product_id=91


 
  Yep tamaudio is the way to go..i bought there also..no problems at all..


----------



## New2thegame

Hello all
   
  I received a M-Stage V2 this week and have thrown in a op627 class A biased opamp and love the sound I'm hearing from this bargain amp paired with a pair of Senn HD650's. Side note, justed wanted to mention that the M-stage amp was despatched on Friday 25th from a seller based in the same city as myself and I ordered the op amp upgrade later that same evening from TamAudio. The M-Stage arrived on Tuesday this week and the opamp arrived the following day. I have to say I am mightily impressed with the speed of shipping from China. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  I have seen a Graham Slee Novo amp available for a potentially good price and I have to admit that I am tempted to try it as I have heard good things about it being paired with Senn HD650's. My question is, has anyone here any experience with both these amps and the HD650's? 
  I wanted to know how the M-stage compares to the Novo, maybe I can save myself some money because the M-stage has definitely brought a different level of clarity and authority to the HD650's compared to the intergrated headphone amp on the Teac UD-H01 Dac that I had been previously using. The upgrade bug has unfortunately taken grip and I am looking to get the best sound I can from a limited budget but would like to avoid disappointment from a rash purchase.
   
  I own a Graham Slee Voyager portable amp and I absolutely love the sound signature but I would like some opinions on how the Novo compares to the M-stage.


----------



## 1llest

Quote: 





fearless1 said:


> Should sound very good, the warmness of the M-stage will compliment the Dt880s.


 
   
  Quote: 





monir said:


> I think it's a good pairing if you had wanted a warmer presentation since the beyers are a little bright to begin with. Even better is to roll with Class A op-amp modding with LM4562 and OPA627. But if you want a neutral representation, then O2 is a better alternative. IMO the M-Stage will drive the beyers very well - but taste and personal preference has a major role in the discussion of amp/HP pairing.


 
   
  Quote: 





kazaakas said:


> Great choice, the HD and the M-Stage are both warm sounding equipment which neutralizes the DT880's a fair bit.


 
   
   
  So its better to get the M-Stage OPA627AP Class A Biasing mod (2012 Version) from Tamaudio? Its a $30 difference from the stock one.
  Can I hook up my KRK speakers on the output of the M-Stage?


----------



## i love audio

Quote: 





monir said:


> I can't say anything about coolbaby11 since I was uncertain about the seller. I think most people here on Head-fi would recommend Tam Audio which is called coolfungadget on Ebay with a very high rating / trusted Ebay seller.
> 
> Alternatively you can visit their online store where they actually sell the OPA627 Class A op-amp mod: http://tamaudio.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&filter_name=opa627&product_id=91


 
   
  Quote: 





hifimanrookie said:


> Yep tamaudio is the way to go..i bought there also..no problems at all..


 

 Thank you very much would i have to pay inport because im in uk? thank you.


----------



## Monir

Quote: 





i love audio said:


> Thank you very much would i have to pay inport because im in uk? thank you.


 

 For something as little as $30 for an op-amp? Usually no.


----------



## kazaakas

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *1llest* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> So its better to get the M-Stage OPA627AP Class A Biasing mod (2012 Version) from Tamaudio? Its a $30 difference from the stock one.
> Can I hook up my KRK speakers on the output of the M-Stage?


 
  It has two RCA output's which the sound is sent to when there is nothing connected to the headphone jack (as of the latest version)


----------



## hifimanrookie

Quote: 





i love audio said:


> Thank you very much would i have to pay inport because im in uk? thank you.


 
  I didnt pay anything eventhough the dutch customs are blood hounds when concerning paying for customs


----------



## i love audio

Quote: 





monir said:


> For something as little as $30 for an op-amp? Usually no.


 
   
  Quote: 





hifimanrookie said:


> I didnt pay anything eventhough the dutch customs are blood hounds when concerning paying for customs


 

 Thank you for your help.i have read what people are saying that the opa627ap is a good match with the m stage is it a good match for my akg q 701 thank you for the help.


----------



## bracko

Quote: 





i love audio said:


> Thank you for your help.i have read what people are saying that the opa627ap is a good match with the m stage is it a good match for my akg q 701 thank you for the help.


 
   


 Hi! Don't expect that rolling OPs will give you a day and night difference in sound. Your Matrix M-Stage will still be a Matrix M-Stage even after the upgrade 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. The sound will "tighten up" a bit with a little more open high end and little better details. I have modded with an LM4562. I ordered a free sample from Texas Instruments (National Semicondustors) : http://www.ti.com/product/lm4562
  Maybe you should start there.


----------



## Bensen

I got exactly those OPAs and cans and it sounds great to me. Very clear and dynamic sound!


----------



## i love audio

Quote: 





bracko said:


> Hi! Don't expect that rolling OPs will give you a day and night difference in sound. Your Matrix M-Stage will still be a Matrix M-Stage even after the upgrade
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Thank you for all your help i bought the opa627ap from tamaudio.


----------



## project86

I've been away from this thread for a while - wow, lot's of posts to catch up on!
   
  I wanted to pop in to advise an update - Matrix now has an official distributor covering the USA. HERE is a link to their website which is matrix-digi-usa.com
   
  Orders will still ship from the factory in China but any type of technical support or return shipping for RMA will be handled by the local agent in New Jersey. This is kind of a big deal in my opinion, because return shipping on stuff like this can be rather expensive. He is also a native English speaker which is helpful. 
   
  No disrespect to excellent sellers like Jeffrey Tam or wsz0304 from eBay - those folks have done a great job supporting the brand and many of us have had positive experiences with them. But as Matrix expands they are starting to have dedicated distributors for certain parts of the world. That's a good thing in my opinion.


----------



## hifimanrookie

Quote: 





project86 said:


> I've been away from this thread for a while - wow, lot's of posts to catch up on!
> 
> I wanted to pop in to advise an update - Matrix now has an official distributor covering the USA. HERE is a link to their website which is matrix-digi-usa.com
> 
> ...


 
  Welcome back dude, and thanks for the info


----------



## burrrcub

That matix mini portable looks nice.  Anyone have anymore information/impressions on them?  Searching has limited reviews, only one from headfonia and one review on headfi.


----------



## 1llest

Which AD797 opamp should I get? There is AD797BZ, AD797AR, AD797ANZ and very confused which one to get. Tried to look for it on tam audio and this came up http://tamaudio.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=39_46&product_id=90
  Would that be a good opamp ?


----------



## Mad Max

AD797 BRZ and AD797AR(Z) are surface-mount chips and look like the one that you linked to when soldered to a 2x1 adapter.  AD797ANZ is a through-hole DIP version, looks something like this.  It will overheat to hell in the M-Stage, though, as it is not suited to the circuit.  I recommend OPA1652, OPA209, OPA1611, or OPA1641 as they are each sonically somewhat similar to 797 in a few ways, 1611 more than the others.  They all come in surface-mount form, so they each need an adapter for compatibility with the M-Stage.  If you cannot find one of those mounted on an adapter, there's OPA602BP which is a great chip and just needs an adapter like this one (it actually won't have the extra bit of PCB sticking out on the front and back as seen there), no soldering required.


----------



## kazaakas

Quote: 





hifimanrookie said:


> I didnt pay anything eventhough the dutch customs are blood hounds when concerning paying for customs


 
   
  Oh hell they are, got "fined" >20$ four out of five times with international shipments already


----------



## 1llest

Quote: 





mad max said:


> AD797 BRZ and AD797AR(Z) are surface-mount chips and look like the one that you linked to when soldered to a 2x1 adapter.  AD797ANZ is a through-hole DIP version, looks something like this.  It will overheat to hell in the M-Stage, though, as it is not suited to the circuit.  I recommend OPA1652, OPA209, OPA1611, or OPA1641 as they are each sonically somewhat similar to 797 in a few ways, 1611 more than the others.  They all come in surface-mount form, so they each need an adapter for compatibility with the M-Stage.  If you cannot find one of those mounted on an adapter, there's OPA602BP which is a great chip and just needs an adapter like this one (it actually won't have the extra bit of PCB sticking out on the front and back as seen there), no soldering required.


 
   
  I think I found the one 
http://cimarrontechnology.com/single-to-dualop-ampadapterpn020302.aspx
  another member from here linked me to that one.


----------



## rawrster

So I have always wanted the M-Stage but never got the chance to. Anyone know how it deals with AKG headphones?
   
  I would like something for a SE setup as I have two setups but they are both balanced. I don't want to switch between my D1 as a dac only and as a dac/amp every time I want to switch headphones. Also I have wanted the matrix mini i for a long time too so getting a M-Stage and Matrix mini i could do for a nice budget setup.


----------



## Fearless1

Quote: 





rawrster said:


> So I have always wanted the M-Stage but never got the chance to. Anyone know how it deals with AKG headphones?
> 
> I would like something for a SE setup as I have two setups but they are both balanced. I don't want to switch between my D1 as a dac only and as a dac/amp every time I want to switch headphones. Also I have wanted the matrix mini i for a long time too so getting a M-Stage and Matrix mini i could do for a nice budget setup.


 
  It is awesome with the Q701s and the 167s(can't speak for anything other AKG offering, it is all I've heard).
   
  No matter what other amps I buy, I still keep it around for the way it sounds with some of my cans.


----------



## bracko

Quote: 





rawrster said:


> So I have always wanted the M-Stage but never got the chance to. Anyone know how it deals with AKG headphones?


 
   
  It is great with K701 and K501.


----------



## NinjaVampire

I was recent advised against getting a M Stage in favour of an ODAC+O2 combo as I was told the M Stage is very noisy. Is this the case or would' anyone have any opinions in relation to the M Stage vs the O2?


----------



## beaver316

Quote: 





ninjavampire said:


> I was recent advised against getting a M Stage in favour of an ODAC+O2 combo as I was told the M Stage is very noisy. Is this the case or would' anyone have any opinions in relation to the M Stage vs the O2?


 
   
  I own the odac + m-stage, no noise whatsoever to my ears.


----------



## Monir

Quote: 





ninjavampire said:


> I was recent advised against getting a M Stage in favour of an ODAC+O2 combo as I was told the M Stage is very noisy. Is this the case or would' anyone have any opinions in relation to the M Stage vs the O2?


 
   
  I didn't find the M-Stage that noisy. However, when I used the LM4562 the noise floor was def noticable on my sensitive headphones, note the LM4562 was bought via digikey. And then I tried another cheaper LM4562 I bought from Ebay some month ago, and the noise floor was substantially quieter. Wierd.


----------



## K_19

When I tried my (now gone) M-Stage at 0 gain with the low impedence and relatively sensitive K550's, there was no hiss that I can hear at reasonable gain levels. With gain switch at 10db there was some definite hiss, but you're likely not going to use sensitive headphones with a higher gain setting than 0db anyway.


----------



## dogwan

Quote: 





ninjavampire said:


> I was recent advised against getting a M Stage in favour of an ODAC+O2 combo as I was told the M Stage is very noisy. Is this the case or would' anyone have any opinions in relation to the M Stage vs the O2?


 

 This has been asked before in this thread several times.
   
  They are different beasts.. Depends on what you are looking for.
   
  I have had both at the same time. Kept the M-Stage, sold the O2. Never had an issue with noise with the Matrix. My issue was I found the O2 too sterile. Fans of the O2 will say that the Matrix is colored.
   
  My experience is that you should take any recommendations for the O2 with a grain of salt. The fanboy club around the product tends to outshout those who didn't care for it. Everytime I say I didn't like it someone pipes in that I must like distortion and coloration. That is not the case, I just like to enjoy my music rather than revel in how true to the source my amp is.  My music, my tastes, my gear. my opinion. Yours may vary.
   
  Now, just watch the reaction....


----------



## Taowolf51

Quote: 





ninjavampire said:


> I was recent advised against getting a M Stage in favour of an ODAC+O2 combo as I was told the M Stage is very noisy. Is this the case or would' anyone have any opinions in relation to the M Stage vs the O2?


 
   
  I have an ODAC and M-Stage. At 18db of gain (almost max gain) on 25 ohm headphones with no music playing, I can start hearing a small amount of noise at around 3/4 full volume. Listening volume is a bit above 1/4.
   
  However, when turning on the amp there is a fairly noticeable pop. I would say that's the only noise I hear, otherwise the amp is super quiet.


----------



## beaver316

Quote: 





dogwan said:


> This has been asked before in this thread several times.
> 
> They are different beasts.. Depends on what you are looking for.
> 
> ...


 
   
  My reaction.. very well put. This is why I personally went for the M-stage rather than the O2 when I was deciding between the two.


----------



## AML1

Hello all. Appologies in advance for this question, but, I am unsure how to decide which version of the M-Stage is best for me:
100-120v
or
220-240v

I use M100 & He-400
Thank you for your help!


----------



## geetarman49

Quote: 





aml1 said:


> Hello all. Appologies in advance for this question, but, I am unsure how to decide which version of the M-Stage is best for me:
> 100-120v
> or
> 220-240v
> ...


 

 this depends entirely on where you live.  what is the output at the power outlets of your apt/home/residence?  for us north americans, we would select the 100-120v version of the m-stage.


----------



## AML1

Thank you. Yes, I am in the US. That makes sense.


----------



## geetarman49

You're welcome.


----------



## Chris J

1llest said:


> How is this amp paired with a DT880? I will be picking the beyer soon and will need to pick an amp asap.
> 
> This is what its gonna be Titanium HD > M-Stage > Beyer
> Will be good enough?




I have a pair of DT880s, I'm not a big fan of the DT880 + M Stage combination, it sounds rather bland to me.
DT880s are a somewhat neutral headphone, I don't think the M Stage darkness goes very well with those cans.


----------



## bracko

chris j said:


> I have a pair of DT880s, I'm not a big fan of the DT880 + M Stage combination, it sounds rather bland to me.
> DT880s are a somewhat neutral headphone, I don't think the M Stage darkness goes very well with those cans.



I completely agree.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





bracko said:


> I completely agree.


 
   
  This may be a rogue opinion, but I do not think the DT880 is a bright headphone in any way.
  That's just my opinion! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
   
  I like my 600 Ohm DT880s with my FiiO E09K.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





monir said:


> I didn't find the M-Stage that noisy. However, when I used the LM4562 the noise floor was def noticable on my sensitive headphones, note the LM4562 was bought via digikey. And then I tried another cheaper LM4562 I bought from Ebay some month ago, and the noise floor was substantially quieter. Wierd.


 
   
  Actually not too wierd!
   
  Different samples of any Op Amp will have different noise levels.
  I guess your noisy LM4562 was at the top end of the noise spec. for that Op Amp.
   
  Just an aside for anyone else reading this:
  it's been said before but for lowest noise, set gain to 0 dB.
  A gain of 20 dB also boosts Op Amp noise by 20 dB (i.e. 10 times higher)


----------



## 1llest

I have a question about setting the gain on this amp. When i looked at the bottom, theres 2 switches for the gain settings. Do i match both?
   
   
  Edit: just found out its for the left and right channel


----------



## GaToMaLaCo

Quote: 





1llest said:


> I have a question about setting the gain on this amp. When i looked at the bottom, theres 2 switches for the gain settings. Do i match both?
> 
> 
> Edit: just found it its for the left and right channel


 
  Yep, somthing like this


----------



## 1llest

Yeah, I just messed with it lol


----------



## hifimanrookie

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Actually not too wierd!
> 
> Different samples of any Op Amp will have different noise levels.
> I guess your noisy LM4562 was at the top end of the noise spec. for that Op Amp.
> ...


 
  Allthoughthats true..but there are some lesser quality opamps around!! Even same model..and some are even sold as real but actually are fake versions..
   
  i found the opa627 sound best..warm and quiet..
  my mstage sounded gorgeous on my he300/400 and with gain on 10 my he500... It really killed some other more expensive amps in my ears..if it wasnt for the 337 i still would have my mstage as my amp to go for listening..i took it everywhere in a laptop bag with me..if there was a electricity plug..my dear frend went with me..


----------



## Chris J

hifimanrookie said:


> Allthoughthats true..but there are some lesser quality opamps around!! Even same model..and some are even sold as real but actually are fake versions..




Hey, thanks for pointing that out!
Maybe the noisy LM4562 was a fugazi!


----------



## Monir

I doubt it was fake since I bought it from digikey


----------



## Chris J

​


monir said:


> I doubt it was fake since I bought it from digikey




That virtually guarantees it is legitimate.
I suspect they get them right from National Semiconductor.


----------



## nickwin

Quote: 





ninjavampire said:


> I was recent advised against getting a M Stage in favour of an ODAC+O2 combo as I was told the M Stage is very noisy. Is this the case or would' anyone have any opinions in relation to the M Stage vs the O2?


 
  I briefly compared the o2 to the M-stage with the k701s and spent several hours comparing the two with dt990 250ohms.  With the AKGs my impression was that the 02 sounded a little clearer, but a little bit boring.  The o2 also seemed to have better treble and bass extension, but I just felt like it was missing some excitement that the m stage had.  The dt990s on the other hand I thought had some great synergy with the o2. I was a little concerned about the dt990s being overly fatiguing with the o2, but that wasn't the case at all.  the o2 really tightened up the dt990s bass and the treble honestly sounded great.  With the dt990s I can say I preferred the o2.  My initial impression was that I liked the m stage more for the k701s, but I would have to spend more time comparing the two amps to really say for sure.  I can say that imo the m stage was more colored than the o2
   
  As far as noise goes, the o2 is dead silent and the m stage has some very minor noise.  I don't think it would be noticeable when you actually have music playing.


----------



## nickwin

Quote: 





taowolf51 said:


> This is the BCL:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  This reminds me of something I have been wondering about for a while.  Can someone who has a good knowledge of the component parts used on these amps comment on the changes made to the various versions of the m stage?  I am no expert but the original m stage looks more similar to the BCL than the newer versions.  With the BCL being a much more expensive amp, I would expect it to have higher quality parts.  Sure the blue power transformer cover looks cool, but the transformer was clearly bigger on the original m stage (and the BCL).  On v2.1 the caps are also different, they look a little less "fancy".
   
  I just have to wonder why Matrix would "improve" the original m stage that was so universally loved.  I have seen this kind of thing before in audio (especially Chinese made audio equipment) where a company will come out with a product that becomes very highly regarded.  Once the product has a good reputation the company "improves" what most people would argue didn't need improvement (AV123 MFW-15 comes to mind).  These "improvements" often are because a particular part is no longer available or something cheaper is available.  I'm not saying this is what is happening here, but as a new owner of a v2.1 I have to wonder.
   
  Has anyone actually compared the original m stage side by side to any of the newer iterations?  I would be really interested in that comparison.


----------



## hifimanrookie

Quote: 





nickwin said:


> This reminds me of something I have been wondering about for a while.  Can someone who has a good knowledge of the component parts used on these amps comment on the changes made to the various versions of the m stage?  I am no expert but the original m stage looks more similar to the BCL than the newer versions.  With the BCL being a much more expensive amp, I would expect it to have higher quality parts.  Sure the blue power transformer cover looks cool, but the transformer was clearly bigger on the original m stage (and the BCL).  On v2.1 the caps are also different, they look a little less "fancy".
> 
> I just have to wonder why Matrix would "improve" the original m stage that was so universally loved.  I have seen this kind of thing before in audio (especially Chinese made audio equipment) where a company will come out with a product that becomes very highly regarded.  Once the product has a good reputation the company "improves" what most people would argue didn't need improvement (AV123 MFW-15 comes to mind).  These "improvements" often are because a particular part is no longer available or something cheaper is available.  I'm not saying this is what is happening here, but as a new owner of a v2.1 I have to wonder.
> 
> Has anyone actually compared the original m stage side by side to any of the newer iterations?  I would be really interested in that comparison.


 
  There is a rumor the original mstage sounds more analog/warmer then the later versions..i loved my version 1.. It drove almost everything fine..even a he500 was no problem on gain 10db..looking at the smaller powerunit on the newer version i wonder if the power delivery was the same.


----------



## bracko

Quote: 





hifimanrookie said:


> There is a rumor the original mstage sounds more analog/warmer then the later versions..i loved my version 1.. It drove almost everything fine..even a he500 was no problem on gain 10db..looking at the smaller powerunit on the newer version i wonder if the power delivery was the same.


 
   
  A quality of a transformer is not visible in outer looks. In the original version Matrix used a "generic" China made transformer (25 or 30 VA). In the new version the transformer is a high quality Talema transformer (25VA) which should be completely sufficient to drive dynamic headphones. The capacitors are, as is visible in the pictures above, exactly the same (see Nichicon in the rectifying part). The volume pot is 50k Alps in both versions.
   
  The "analog" or "warm" sound can also mean "dirtier" (more distorded) sound, less clear sound and poorer resolution.


----------



## nickwin

Quote: 





bracko said:


> A quality of a transformer is not visible in outer looks. In the original version Matrix used a "generic" China made transformer (25 or 30 VA). In the new version the transformer is a high quality Talema transformer (25VA) which should be completely sufficient to drive dynamic headphones. The capacitors are, as is visible in the pictures above, exactly the same (see Nichicon in the rectifying part). The volume pot is 50k Alps in both versions.
> 
> The "analog" or "warm" sound can also mean "dirtier" (more distorded) sound, less clear sound and poorer resolution.


 
    
   
   
   
     
   
   
  The caps appear to be different in the v2.1 model (look at the pic I attached), they are black instead of yellow/gold.  I know there is more than meets the eye with this kind of thing so thanks for the info, that is exactly what I was looking for.  Where did you get the info on the transformer btw?  So even though the transformer appears to be about twice as big in the original m stage, the replacement has just as much power?


----------



## bracko

Quote: 





nickwin said:


> The caps appear to be different in the v2.1 model (look at the pic I attached), they are black instead of yellow/gold.  I know there is more than meets the eye with this kind of thing so thanks for the info, that is exactly what I was looking for.  Where did you get the info on the transformer btw?  So even though the transformer appears to be about twice as big in the original m stage, the replacement has just as much power?


 
   
  The large capacitors in the rectifying stage are Nichicon KG, both in the old and in the new versions. These are available in different colors. Some are more black, others are more gold.
   
  Apropos the transformer. I found the info on the internet. I believe that "LaserCollection" uses the same transformers in the Lovely Cube. I don't believe the one in the v 2.1 has more power but it could be a bit "cleaner".


----------



## hifimanrookie

Quote: 





nickwin said:


> The caps appear to be different in the v2.1 model (look at the pic I attached), they are black instead of yellow/gold.  I know there is more than meets the eye with this kind of thing so thanks for the info, that is exactly what I was looking for.  Where did you get the info on the transformer btw?  So even though the transformer appears to be about twice as big in the original m stage, the replacement has just as much power?


 
  The only weird thing is that there are problems with quality on the newer models as with version 1 i never ever heard of any problems..except for the switches of gain being upside down..so something changed..along the way..just my honest opinion..as i said before..i had a version 1 for more then 2 years and used it daily for hours in a row..and i understand the new owner does the same since november..and no problems whatsoever...
  Dont get me wrong here..but warm sound=distorded sound and unclear??? Hello!! If thats the case the whole woo audio lineup, the bottlehead crack and my 337 are distorded.and some other top sounding amps...so i dont think u can state that...i think.the older version was just tuned for the chinese market...the newer models for the Usa market where they prefer more brighter more agressive soundsignature...as u say..more detail and more clearer sound..which in reality is just more treble..imho.


----------



## elwappo99

So, I finally got one of these little guys in. I'm pretty happy with the unit so far as a computer / side rig hooked up with my Asus ST. Quick question, since I've seen a lot of different opamps tossed around. I'm  stuck between getting an Audio-GD module or a class A biased 627. Anyone have a direct comparison? Are the opamps from Tamaudio legitimate or are they chinese knock-offs?


----------



## nickwin

Quote: 





hifimanrookie said:


> The only weird thing is that there are problems with quality on the newer models as with version 1 i never ever heard of any problems..except for the switches of gain being upside down..so something changed..along the way..just my honest opinion..as i said before..i had a version 1 for more then 2 years and used it daily for hours in a row..and i understand the new owner does the same since november..and no problems whatsoever...
> Dont get me wrong here..but warm sound=distorded sound and unclear??? Hello!! If thats the case the whole woo audio lineup, the bottlehead crack and my 337 are distorded.and some other top sounding amps...so i dont think u can state that...i think.the older version was just tuned for the chinese market...the newer models for the Usa market where they prefer more brighter more agressive soundsignature...as u say..more detail and more clearer sound..which in reality is just more treble..imho.


 
  One thing to keep in mind is there are simply way more of these out there now compared to the year or two following the release of v1.  I'm not disagreeing, just pointing that out.  Another thing I noticed is that a lot of people commented about v1 running hot/very warm, where as my v2.1 barely gets warm after playing for several hours at moderate volume.


----------



## bracko

nickwin said:


> One thing to keep in mind is there are simply way more of these out there now compared to the year or two following the release of v1.  I'm not disagreeing, just pointing that out.  Another thing I noticed is that a lot of people commented about v1 running hot/very warm, where as my v2.1 barely gets warm after playing for several hours at moderate volume.


 I am quite sure ver. 2.1 is a bit more rafined than ver. 1.


----------



## WestLander

Quote: 





elwappo99 said:


> So, I finally got one of these little guys in. I'm pretty happy with the unit so far as a computer / side rig hooked up with my Asus ST. Quick question, since I've seen a lot of different opamps tossed around. I'm  stuck between getting an Audio-GD module or a class A biased 627. Anyone have a direct comparison? Are the opamps from Tamaudio legitimate or are they chinese knock-offs?


 
   
  I've used both the Tamaudio class-A biased OPA627, and the Audio-GD OPA SUN in my M-Stage (v1). I prefer the OPA SUN as I think it provides all the best qualities of the 627 but with improved clarity and soundstage, but as far as I know, the Tamaudio opamps are all genuine.


----------



## Taowolf51

One thing I notice is that when running as a headphone amp, the M-Stage barely gets warm, but when running as a preamp, it gets quite warm. Admittedly, it is on top of my power amp, but I can't imagine it making that much of a difference (especially considering that it actually runs warmer than the power amp).


----------



## hifimanrookie

Quote: 





nickwin said:


> One thing to keep in mind is there are simply way more of these out there now compared to the year or two following the release of v1.  I'm not disagreeing, just pointing that out.  Another thing I noticed is that a lot of people commented about v1 running hot/very warm, where as my v2.1 barely gets warm after playing for several hours at moderate volume.


 
  Yep mine got warm always also..but worked brillantly..and i. Agree..more people bought the mstage now..but still..
   
  ps about tamaudio..its the real deal..i boight my opa627 class a module from them..perfect!


----------



## Chris J

nickwin said:


> One thing to keep in mind is there are simply way more of these out there now compared to the year or two following the release of v1.  I'm not disagreeing, just pointing that out.  Another thing I noticed is that a lot of people commented about v1 running hot/very warm, where as my v2.1 barely gets warm after playing for several hours at moderate volume.




The v2.1 runs cooler because it has ventilation holes!
Ciao.


----------



## Chris J

taowolf51 said:


> One thing I notice is that when running as a headphone amp, the M-Stage barely gets warm, but when running as a preamp, it gets quite warm. Admittedly, it is on top of my power amp, but I can't imagine it making that much of a difference (especially considering that it actually runs warmer than the power amp).




It should run just as hot as a pre amp as it does as a headphone amp.


----------



## Taowolf51

Quote: 





chris j said:


> It should run just as hot as a pre amp as it does as a headphone amp.


 
   
  Hm, maybe I'll try moving the m-stage. It definitely gets much warmer when I use it as a preamp.


----------



## 1llest

What is the difference between opamp 627 and 797?


----------



## nickwin

Quote: 





chris j said:


> The v2.1 runs cooler because it has ventilation holes!
> Ciao.


 
  So thats what those things do.


----------



## hifimanrookie

Quote: 





chris j said:


> The v2.1 runs cooler because it has ventilation holes!
> Ciao.


 
  I read on a review those holes dont work..heat goes up..not to side..but hey..i didnt say it..i read it..


----------



## Taowolf51

Quote: 





hifimanrookie said:


> I read on a review those holes dont work..heat goes up..not to side..but hey..i didnt say it..i read it..


 
   
  Heat does rise, but saying that holes in the side of the enclosure do nothing is a bit ridiculous.


----------



## hifimanrookie

Quote: 





taowolf51 said:


> Heat does rise, but saying that holes in the side of the enclosure do nothing is a bit ridiculous.


 
  The guy saying it did say that he didnt understand whythe holes were not on top instead of on sides..as that would help better..but as i said..these are not my words..


----------



## Chris J

nickwin said:


> So thats what those things do.




They also give the amp an airiier sound!


----------



## hifimanrookie

Quote: 





chris j said:


> They also give the amp an airiier sound!


----------



## elwappo99

May be a strange question, but I just opened this to toss around some opamps. Has anyone played with the voltage pots on these? That is a SUPER fun tweak to play with.


----------



## bracko

Quote: 





elwappo99 said:


> May be a strange question, but I just opened this to toss around some opamps. Has anyone played with the voltage pots on these? That is a SUPER fun tweak to play with.


 
  Unfortunatelly I don't have the schematics. What exactly do you believe those pots do?


----------



## elwappo99

Quote: 





bracko said:


> Unfortunatelly I don't have the schematics. What exactly do you believe those pots do?


 
   
  They should change the voltage in circuit. Wayyy back when I had a Roc and Phoenix from Audio-gd changing the voltage drastically afftected the sound overall.


----------



## i love audio

Hi got my opa627ap  today im in the uk took 11 days to get hear.Great website now for burn in do op amps take time to sound there best? Thank you for the help.


----------



## bracko

Quote: 





elwappo99 said:


> They should change the voltage in circuit. Wayyy back when I had a Roc and Phoenix from Audio-gd changing the voltage drastically afftected the sound overall.


 

 OK. It would be convenient to know which exact voltages one can alter with those pots. Do you know if there is a schematics for this amp somewhere to be downloaded?


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





elwappo99 said:


> May be a strange question, but I just opened this to toss around some opamps. Has anyone played with the voltage pots on these? That is a SUPER fun tweak to play with.


 
   
  I'm not too sure what you are talking about!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Are you talking about the "voltage pots" on a discrete Op Amp?
   
  If you are, then you are probably hearing more distortion, less distortion.
  Some of the pots may affect DC offset, you really don't want to adjust those, unless you want to _reduce_ DC offset.
   
  Note to Mr. "I Love Music":  an Op Amp should take approx. 1/2 an hour to warm up.


----------



## elwappo99

Quote: 





chris j said:


> I'm not too sure what you are talking about!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Well, since I am far from an electrical engineer, I definitely don't understand amplifier design at all. Seems like you volunteered for it 
   
  Here's what I am referring to. Found it in the old Roc thread, couldn't find the phoenix one. 
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/452977/lightbox/post/6748591/id/24785#post_6748591


----------



## hifimanrookie

Quote: 





i love audio said:


> Hi got my opa627ap  today im in the uk took 11 days to get hear.Great website now for burn in do op amps take time to sound there best? Thank you for the
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Chris J

elwappo99 said:


> Well, since I am far from an electrical engineer, I definitely don't understand amplifier design at all. Seems like you volunteered for it
> 
> Here's what I am referring to. Found it in the old Roc thread, couldn't find the phoenix one.
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/452977/lightbox/post/6748591/id/24785#post_6748591




Oh, oh, the link is broken!
Damn!
Can you repost it?


----------



## elwappo99

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Oh, oh, the link is broken!
> Damn!
> Can you repost it?


 
   
  How about 
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/452977/review-audio-gd-roc/180
   
  Scroll down to post 187


----------



## KewreL

For the price, I think the M-stage is a superb amp. Currently driving my HD650s with one. I'm planning on upgrading to something like a Musical Fidelity M1 as soon as my wallet approves, since I'm not 100% happy with my setup at the moment. But since I got the M-stage for less than $140, I really can't complain much.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





elwappo99 said:


> May be a strange question, but I just opened this to toss around some opamps. Has anyone played with the voltage pots on these? That is a SUPER fun tweak to play with.


 
   
  Quote: 





elwappo99 said:


> They should change the voltage in circuit. Wayyy back when I had a Roc and Phoenix from Audio-gd changing the voltage drastically afftected the sound overall.


 
   
  Quote: 





elwappo99 said:


> How about
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/452977/review-audio-gd-roc/180
> 
> Scroll down to post 187


 
   
  Hey, I'm not too sure what this has to do with the Matrix M Stage?
   
  When you tweak those pots, you are probably just increasing the distortion.
  In theory, the pots should have been factory set for minimum distortion.
   
  A "brighter, snappier" sound probably means more odd order harmonics.
  A "warmer" sound usually means more even order harmonics.
   
  I'm sute this is what we are doing when we start rolling tubes in tube amps!


----------



## bracko

Quote: 





kewrel said:


> For the price, I think the M-stage is a superb amp. Currently driving my HD650s with one. I'm planning on upgrading to something like a Musical Fidelity M1 as soon as my wallet approves, since I'm not 100% happy with my setup at the moment. But since I got the M-stage for less than $140, I really can't complain much.


 
   
   Matrix is a superb amplifier at any price 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 but unfortunatelly I feel it doesn't play so well with HD650. MF X-Can V2 and V3 are, in my opinion, a better match to HD650. I don't know about M1 HPA but am interested in opinions from anyone who has tried that setup.


----------



## Monir

I on other hand thought the HD650 paired really well with M-Stage


----------



## bracko

monir said:


> I on other hand thought the HD650 paired really well with M-Stage


 I mean it is not bad but x-can gives a little more sparkle to HD650 and even to DT880/600.


----------



## hifimanrookie

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Hey, I'm not too sure what this has to do with the Matrix M Stage?
> 
> When you tweak those pots, you are probably just increasing the distortion.
> In theory, the pots should have been factory set for minimum distortion.
> ...


 
  Well i guess i then prefer super order harmonics in my amp over no harmonics and listening to a heartless cold ear destroying sibilant amp then...like a o2. Imho


----------



## Monir

Quote: 





bracko said:


> I mean it is not bad but x-can gives a little more sparkle to HD650 and even to DT880/600.


 

 As in sparkle do you mean treble? Cause treble extension is one thing I tried avoiding when looking to pair the HD650 with an amp. But maybe some will find the pairing too soft and warm.
   
  I guess the X-Can is generally brighter than M-Stage if I understand it correct?


----------



## Chris J

​


bracko said:


> I mean it is not bad but x-can gives a little more sparkle to HD650 and even to DT880/600.




I've never really liked the M Stage with DT880/600.
Sounds kinda bland.


----------



## mediumraresteak

Anyone know if the LME49990 opamp is worth the upgrade to stock for the m-stage v2?  I'm thinking of having it modded with the LME49990 opamp to pair with my DT 990/600 Ohm headphones.


----------



## Chris J

mediumraresteak said:


> Anyone know if the LME49990 opamp is worth the upgrade to stock for the m-stage v2?  I'm thinking of having it modded with the
> LME49990 opamp to pair with my DT 990/600 Ohm headphones.





I don't know much about the LME49990, but the LM4562 has a lot of fans here, including me.


----------



## dogwan

Quote: 





hifimanrookie said:


> Well i guess i then prefer super order harmonics in my amp over no harmonics and listening to a heartless cold ear destroying sibilant amp then...like a o2. Imho


 
   
  And I thought I was alone in this world.....


----------



## hifimanrookie

Quote: 





dogwan said:


> And I thought I was alone in this world.....


 
  Join the club who uses hours and hours to decide what amp sounds best for ur ears and ur cans instead in believin numbers. Welcome to the club.


----------



## dogwan

Quote: 





hifimanrookie said:


> Join the club who uses hours and hours to decide what amp sounds best for ur ears and ur cans instead in believin numbers. Welcome to the club.


 

 Subjectivists unite!


----------



## hifimanrookie

Quote: 





dogwan said:


> Subjectivists unite!


----------



## Chris J

dogwan said:


> Subjectivists unite!




Shhhhh!

Don't tell the Object-to-it-all-ivists in The Science Fiction Forum!


----------



## hifimanrookie

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Shhhhh!
> 
> Don't tell the Object-to-it-all-ivists in The Science Fiction Forum!


----------



## mediumraresteak

Quote: 





chris j said:


> I don't know much about the LME49990, but the LM4562 has a lot of fans here, including me.


 
  Thanks for the reply.  I was thinking of using the M-Stage v2 mostly with my PC and Fiio E17.  Do you think that'd be a good combo?  Not sure how an amp like the M-Stage and DAC combo works.


----------



## EraserXIV

Quote: 





chris j said:


> I don't know much about the LME49990, but the LM4562 has a lot of fans here, including me.


 
   
  From what I've gathered, the LM4562 is the same exact part as the LME49720. The LME49990 conforms to tighter specs for audio applications than the LME49720. I've personally compared the LME49720HA (metal can) to the LME49990 and prefer the LME49990.


----------



## bracko

Quote: 





monir said:


> As in sparkle do you mean treble? Cause treble extension is one thing I tried avoiding when looking to pair the HD650 with an amp. But maybe some will find the pairing too soft and warm.
> 
> I guess the X-Can is generally brighter than M-Stage if I understand it correct?


 

 It isn't really "the brightnes". It is attack and dynamics, punch. X-Can adds little more punch to the overall sound. The mid-bass becomes little leaner and the bass overall gets tighter.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





mediumraresteak said:


> Thanks for the reply.  I was thinking of using the M-Stage v2 mostly with my PC and Fiio E17.  Do you think that'd be a good combo?  Not sure how an amp like the M-Stage and DAC combo works.


 
   
  I've rolled a few Op Amps into my Matrix M Stage.
  I have to admit that I do not hear large differences between Op Amps.
   
  I've been using my M Stage with my E17 for a while, while the combo works quite well and I'm quite happy with it, I have this nagging feeling that the M Stage deserves a better DAC.
  But since I don't have the money right now to upgrade my DAC, so that's what I use when I listen to music off my computer!
   
   
  For reference:
  Occassionally I plug my CD player into my M Stage, the CD player has a much better DAC.


----------



## nickwin

Quote: 





dogwan said:


> And I thought I was alone in this world.....


 
    I spent a bunch of time comparing the o2 and m stage, and while the o2 might be a little boring with certain headphones (k701s for example), I did not find it to be sibilant in the least.  In fact to me, with both headphones I tried, (k701 and dt990) the o2 had smoother less fatiguing treble than the m stage.  I actually find that the m stage has some congestion/distortion in the mid-treble that can make it seem more sibilant and fatiguing than either of the other amps I've used (o2 and shanling ph100).  I have v2.1 with the opa627 class a bias mod.


----------



## dogwan

Quote: 





nickwin said:


> I spent a bunch of time comparing the o2 and m stage, and while the o2 might be a little boring with certain headphones (k701s for example), I did not find it to be sibilant in the least.  In fact to me, with both headphones I tried, (k701 and dt990) the o2 had smoother less fatiguing treble than the m stage.  I actually find that the m stage has some congestion/distortion in the mid-treble that can make it seem more sibilant and fatiguing than either of the other amps I've used (o2 and shanling ph100).  I have v2.1 with the opa627 class a bias mod.


 

 I wasn't the one who thought the O2 was sibilant, just lifeless. Cans I tried included Fostex t50rp's (modded), K701, K401, K240m, HD600, DT880, SR125', and Yamaha YH-3's. Just didn't do it for me with any cans.
   
  Interestingly, I found the *class A* opa627 to be a little hot in the upper mid and treble range and thus fatiguing. Went back to the standard 627 and liked it much better. Although, it was subtle for me. Eventually ended up with the LME49720HA over the 627. Have been happy with the M-stage ever since.


----------



## nickwin

Quote: 





dogwan said:


> I wasn't the one who thought the O2 was sibilant, just lifeless. Cans I tried included Fostex t50rp's (modded), K701, K401, K240m, HD600, DT880, SR125', and Yamaha YH-3's. Just didn't do it for me with any cans.
> 
> Interestingly, I found the *class A* opa627 to be a little hot in the upper mid and treble range and thus fatiguing. Went back to the standard 627 and liked it much better. Although, it was subtle for me. Eventually ended up with the LME49720HA over the 627. Have been happy with the M-stage ever since.


 
  I wasn't trying to single you out, I just wanted to share my thoughts on the o2 being sibilant. In my experience the m-stage opq627 class A has more fatiguing treble than the o2.  That said I can definitely see where your coming from about the o2 being "lifeless".  I felt the same way with my k701s.  I felt it had great synergy with the dt990s thought which have a lot of "life" of there own and almost need to be toned down.
   
  Very interesting about the class A 627.  Maybe I have some opamp rolling in my future 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## simonpking

Just bought one of these from Tam Audio... Pretty excited to hear what they can do with my Mad Dogs. 

Waiting, waiting for it to arrive in the post.

Talking O2 I didn't end up getting the M Stage with the OPA627 after reading NwAvGuy's blog entry on opamps. He's amusingly condescending on the topic of whether the difference in opamp can be heard.


----------



## Chris J

I agree with the sound of Op Amps thing.
I find it extremely difficult to hear the difference between Op Amps in the M Stage.

As for the condescending part, pretty much describes a lot of his followers!


----------



## Suopermanni

Hey guys, I would like to know how much power the M-Stage outputs at 50 ohms? I'm only asking this as someone asked for my M-Stage and wants to know this before they make a decision on whether to purchase it.


----------



## bracko

suopermanni said:


> Hey guys, I would like to know how much power the M-Stage outputs at 50 ohms? I'm only asking this as someone asked for my M-Stage and wants to know this before they make a decision on whether to purchase it.




There is a list with specs here http://www.head-fi.org/products/matrix-m-stage

400mW in 60 Ohms


----------



## LCMusicLover

I just got an m-Stage (amp only), and it has a low-level hum that is probably at 60Hz.  It's there regardless of what's plugged into either input, or even if there is nothing on the inputs.  Its level isn't changed when I change the gain dip switches, and it doesn't change with the volume know (0 - full, hum is the same level).  It also doesn't go away if I plug directly into the wall, or into a power strip, or into a computer UPS, or another wall plug in a different room.  (I haven't tried a different house -- that's a 'to-do').
   
  I've searched this thread and several others.  The only idea I saw was to tighten and loosen the screw on the bottom of the case, which I believe holds the transformer in place.  That didn't help.  I opened up the case because...well, who can resist doing that when they have a problem, and didn't see anything obvious.  The op-amp was well-seated.
   
  BTW, I only hear this with my 1964Ears V.3s, not with my Panasonic RP-HFT600 -- that may be an isolation factor as I have fantastic isolation with the V.3s and the Panasonics may be allowing enough ambient noise in to mask the hum.  I'll check that tonight when the house should be quiet enough to tell.
   
  Any ideas?


----------



## WestLander

Quote: 





lcmusiclover said:


> I just got an m-Stage (amp only), and it has a low-level hum that is probably at 60Hz.  It's there regardless of what's plugged into either input, or even if there is nothing on the inputs.  Its level isn't changed when I change the gain dip switches, and it doesn't change with the volume know (0 - full, hum is the same level).  It also doesn't go away if I plug directly into the wall, or into a power strip, or into a computer UPS, or another wall plug in a different room.  (I haven't tried a different house -- that's a 'to-do').
> 
> I've searched this thread and several others.  The only idea I saw was to tighten and loosen the screw on the bottom of the case, which I believe holds the transformer in place.  That didn't help.  I opened up the case because...well, who can resist doing that when they have a problem, and didn't see anything obvious.  The op-amp was well-seated.
> 
> ...


 
   
  That's probably a function of the very high sensitivity of the 1964Ears. Is it noticeable when playing music, as well?


----------



## LCMusicLover

Shows up in quiet passages, especially with acoustic music, or solo piano classical.  It's funny about the sensitivity thing -- the Panasonics are also very sensitive -- I use them both on the same (lowest) gain setting.  Comfortable listening level on the IEMs is around 8:00 - 10:00, on the Panasonics it's about 9 - 11.
   
  But that somewhat lower sensitivity, coupled with the much lower isolation seems to eliminate the problem.
   
  Funny thing is, I bought the mStage because I was having trouble with the EF2A playing low enough without running into channel imbalance, but the EF2A is dead quiet, even with the 1964Ears, up to about 12:00 when I start noticing some hiss.  But at that setting, the EF2A's gain would have already made me deaf or killed me.  The 'zero' point on that volume pot is about 7:30, and I couldn't listen to it much above 8:30, at which point the channel imbalance has _just_ resolved itself.  So I traded one problem for another.
   
  I know everybody says 'you don't need an amp with such sensitive IEMs' but I do need one in order to listen to computer audio through a DAC, unless I want to control the volume in iTunes, which is sub-optimal for several reasons.
   
  I just want a clean, resolving low-gain amp that isn't noisy.  Too much to ask?


----------



## WestLander

What dac are you using with it? If your source volume is at 100% does the hum persist if you lower it to 50-60%?

Since you mention it's a hum, and not a hiss, it may actually not be sensitivity dependent....could be some kinda ground loop issue instead. I know you've tried different outlets, but that's about all I can think of.


----------



## LCMusicLover

Centrance DacPort LX, but the Dac doesn't matter --- it's there even if nothing is connected to the inputs.
   
  And yes, it's definitely a hum.


----------



## jkorten

You may be picking up magnetic interference on your headphone signal cables. You say it is not dependent on signal presence?
   
  How about with the volume control - does it get louder or softer through the headphone when you change the gain? Is it in both channels or just one?
   
  If not - you should try re-positioning your headphone cable, or changing it, if that is possible.
   
  Otherwise - it sounds like you have a bad capacitor in your power supply.


----------



## LCMusicLover

@jkorten
   
  Correct, not dependent on signal presence -- still there when there is nothing connected to either input.
   
  Also, gain setting (either on volume knob or DIP switch settings) has no effect.  I do have 2 othe sets of cables, although the set I'm using are BG-Audio Starlight, and have performed well with other amps (E11, EF-2A, VAMP, iPod & iPhone). I'll try other cables tonight when I get home.
   
  @All -- can anyone confirm no hum with low impedance, highly sensitive IEMs? Mine are 1964Ears V.3s


----------



## hifimanrookie

Quote: 





lcmusiclover said:


> @jkorten
> 
> Correct, not dependent on signal presence -- still there when there is nothing connected to either input.
> 
> ...


 
  I have to admit my mstage didnt like my westone um3x also..still dont know why...i thought it was because of my source, the hm602. I heared a hum also..with my hm300,400, 500 and my beyers mmx300 i didnt have any problems..dead silent!! So maybe the mstage is choosy bout high sensitive iems? My 337 hates iems also by the way..did u try another powercord? Or put the powercord directly into the wall?sometimes that helps..if u dont have anything connected and u touch the imput rca connectors..do u hear change of humming?


----------



## LCMusicLover

I've tried different plug-in options (different socket, USP, surge protector/line conditioner) to no avail.  And I actually just received a new DAC (Ultra-Fi DAC-41) with which the seller included a Ridge Street Audio power cord.  That didn't help either.
   
  BTW, I absolutely F*&$%NG love the Ultra-Fi DAC.  It's hands-down the single biggest upgrade I've made to my system since I went from cheap ear buds to ER4Ps.  I mean it JUMPED out at me with the first track I played.
   
  I immediately noticed three big differences:
   
  1. Much more sustain on piano music, also on acoustic guitar.
   
  2. Much more spaciousness in the music as a whole -- it actually seems like a completely different sound stage.  On music I've listened to many times, the instruments moved apart and re-positioned themselves.
   
  3. More detail overall (not always a good thing).  For example, if you listen to the Jefferson Airplane song 'Today' from Surrealistic Pillow, the end is just a mess.  It's a quiet acoustic number for the first maybe 2 minutes (single voice, tamborine & guitar). Drums come in, and slowly become louder and louder, as they also add backing vocalists.  The levels are too high, so the last minute or so is more and more distorted.  But with the Ultra-Fi, you can hear each instrument and its distortion separately   It's actually kind of wierd.  There are lots of positive examples, where with my DacPort, the music just got too thick and jumbled together, while the Ultra-Fi keeps everything separate.  (Cranberries Zombie is one example).
   
  But one problem is that I tend to want to listen at lower levels, since I can still hear all the music, but as a result I hear the my m-stage's hum more in quiet passages, It's actually enough worse that if I can't solve it, I'll have to move to a different amp, which is unfortunate, since I really like it otherwise. 
   
  If I have to move on, I'm thinking about a Meier Corda Jazz (extremely low output impedance).


----------



## Chris J

I do hear an extremely faint hum when I use my Shure SE210 IEMs with the M Stage. Damn!

I hear no hum when I use my iBasso D12 running off batteries. 

But my FiiO E17 has a faint buzzy whine to it, and I'm running it off battery! Damn!
My FiiO E09K has a very faint hiss.

Just a suggestion:
use a good battery operated headphone amp.
I don't have a lot of experience with IEMs.

I normally use the SE210s with my iPod........which runs off batteries!


----------



## LCMusicLover

Update -- changing cables didn't help.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





lcmusiclover said:


> Update -- changing cables didn't help.


 
   
  I would not expect changing a headphone cable to fix this.
  Or an interconnect cable either.
   
  Sounds like your problem is power supply noise.
  I don't think the M Stage was designed to drive IEMs.


----------



## hifimanrookie

Yep i think so also..so good reason to buy urself a hifiman full size can now


----------



## Taowolf51

Stupid question, are you sure you're at 0 gain?


----------



## hifimanrookie

Quote: 





taowolf51 said:


> Stupid question, are you sure you're at 0 gain?


 
  Even stupier question: are BOTH switches on 0 gain..


----------



## LCMusicLover

Yes, I'm at zero gain on both channels, but as mentioned in the original post, the gain settings are irrelevant/don't change the hum. Neither does the volume setting -- with no source, the hum is the same if the volume knob is at min or max or anywhere in between. And it doesn't matter what source I use, or which input it's on, or if there's no input connected at all. 
   
  And changing where I'm plugged in, or changing AC cords doesn't help.
   
  I don't hear this with the Panasonic cans.
   
  @ChrisJ: You may be right that this amp can't do sensitive, low impedance IEMs. That's why I asked if anyone out there used this amp with such IEMs without hum -- trying to determine if its just a bad fit/synergy vs a problem with my amp.
    
   
  Quote:


lcmusiclover said:


> I just got an m-Stage (amp only), and it has a low-level hum that is probably at 60Hz.  It's there regardless of what's plugged into either input, or even if there is nothing on the inputs.  Its level isn't changed when I change the gain dip switches, and it doesn't change with the volume know (0 - full, hum is the same level).  It also doesn't go away if I plug directly into the wall, or into a power strip, or into a computer UPS, or another wall plug in a different room.  (I haven't tried a different house -- that's a 'to-do').
> 
> I've searched this thread and several others.  The only idea I saw was to tighten and loosen the screw on the bottom of the case, which I believe holds the transformer in place.  That didn't help.  I opened up the case because...well, who can resist doing that when they have a problem, and didn't see anything obvious.  The op-amp was well-seated.
> 
> ...


----------



## Chris J

lcmusiclover said:


> Yes, I'm at zero gain on both channels, but as mentioned in the original post, the gain settings are irrelevant/don't change the hum. Neither does the volume setting -- with no source, the hum is the same if the volume knob is at min or max or anywhere in between. And it doesn't matter what source I use, or which input it's on, or if there's no input connected at all.
> 
> And changing where I'm plugged in, or changing AC cords doesn't help.
> 
> ...




Yep,
I don't like the M Stage with my Shure SE210s!
It's the power supply noise.
I would use Either an amp with a much quieter power supply (you don't usually see this in the spec sheets) or an amp that runs off batteries and does not use a DC-DC converter in it.


----------



## Taowolf51

Is it possible that you're picking up some radio signal? My integrated amp sometimes picks up radio stations (it doesn't have a tuner in it), and the volume doesn't change how loud the radio station is.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





taowolf51 said:


> Is it possible that you're picking up some radio signal? My integrated amp sometimes picks up radio stations (it doesn't have a tuner in it), and the volume doesn't change how loud the radio station is.


 
   
  That would probably be intermittant and should change if you move the Matrix around, say, to another room.
  He did say that he moved it to another room, no success!
  Radio signal would probably sound like a higher pitched type of noise than 60 Hz buzzzzzzzz.


----------



## LCMusicLover

@Chris J:
   
  No, certainly not radio noise -- it's definitely a single frequency hum.  In addtion, I live in a rural part of Oregon -- I can barely pick up radio signals on a radio 
   
  I'm communicating with Matrix, trying to figure out if it's just a "doesn't work with such IEMs" kind of problem.


----------



## Chris J

lcmusiclover said:


> @Chris J:
> 
> No, certainly not radio noise -- it's definitely a single frequency hum.  In addtion, I live in a rural part of Oregon -- I can barely pick up radio signals on a radio
> 
> I'm communicating with Matrix, trying to figure out if it's just a "doesn't work with such IEMs" kind of problem.




Sounds like you hear what I hear:
power supply noise, i.e. 60 Hz plus harmonics of 60 Hz: 120, 180, 240, 300 Hz, etc, etc.


Sounds a bit like a very quiet Bzzzzzzzzzzz?


----------



## LCMusicLover

Yep, sounds just like that
   
  But on the other hand, my OP-627 which arrived today and is now in the amp makes the hum quieter, as do my new Aurisonics AS-2s.  So maybe I can live with it. And, on the gripping hand, I also just snagged a RSA Shadow on eBay which I'll receive next week.  Maybe I`ll decide the matrix with the 627 is ok, or maybe I'll end up with the Shadow.
   
  I'm sure loving the Ultra-fi and the AS-2s.  It's weird to hear music you're very familiar with and have it be 'different'.   Between the 1964Ears v.3s and the AS-2s it's brighter (1964) vs darker, more staging (AS-2) vs more presence,  There's a sort of 'false detail' in a bright sound -- you hear the flash of the cymbal or hot hat, but you don't hear the tone.  At the same time with a darker sound the vocals can end up seeming a bit recessed.  I've definitely come to believe that I have to learn to hear the music on each system and let go of how I remember it sounding before.  
   
  Right now I'm listening to Van Morrison's Astral Weeks and it's just wonderful. The hum is annoying  between the tracks, but it isn't audible once the music comes back in, except in the most delicate pieces.
   
  Moonlight Sonata is a good example a piece where the hum comes through.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





lcmusiclover said:


> Yep, sounds just like that
> 
> But on the other hand, my OP-627 which arrived today and is now in the amp makes the hum quieter, as do my new Aurisonics AS-2s.  So maybe I can live with it. And, on the gripping hand, I also just snagged a RSA Shadow on eBay which I'll receive next week.  Maybe I`ll decide the matrix with the 627 is ok, or maybe I'll end up with the Shadow.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Astral Weeks!
  Excellent!
   
  I'm using an LM4562, which obviously still buzzes. But very quietly. I agree, I find it doesn't usually interfere with my music listening.
  I can imagine that it does come thru with Moonlight Sonata................


----------



## LCMusicLover

Quote: 





hifimanrookie said:


> Yep i think so also..so good reason to buy urself a hifiman full size can now


 
   
    Thanks for the incredibly helpful suggestion


----------



## hifimanrookie

Quote: 





lcmusiclover said:


> Thanks for the incredibly helpful suggestion


 
  Ur more then welcome..ps..a he300 isnt expensive..


----------



## LCMusicLover

Quote: 





hifimanrookie said:


> Ur more then welcome..ps..a he300 isnt expensive..


 
   
  Sure, that's how it would start ... This is head-fi after all. 15 months ago I 'upgraded' from iBuds right out of my iPod to $35 SoundMax IEMs. Look at at sig now


----------



## hifimanrookie

Quote: 





lcmusiclover said:


> Sure, that's how it would start ... This is head-fi after all. 15 months ago I 'upgraded' from iBuds right out of my iPod to $35 SoundMax IEMs. Look at at sig now


 
  I know what u mean..look at my profile..and this started with a simple ipod shuffle first version..and two years later i have the stuff i have now..my wallet is bleeding but my ears are joying..


----------



## beaver316

Anybody have any idea how to open up the newer m-stage? The old version had the screws on the side like so
   

   
  The new one doesn't, it just has screws on the back and front plate.


----------



## chicolom

You take out the top two screws on each side, then lift the top half of the case out.


----------



## JosephsART

Quote: 





chicolom said:


> You take out the top two screws on each side, then lift the top half of the case out.


 
   
  Ya, and you just need a hex key to unscrew them.


----------



## beaver316

Ok thanks. Im planning on replacing the volume knob with this that i found online. I suppose the only way to replace it is to open up the m-stage, but Im not sure what to do from there. Some advice would be very much appreciated.
   
  An observation though, the back screws don't need a hex key, they're regular star screws.


----------



## bracko

Quote: 





beaver316 said:


> Ok thanks. Im planning on replacing the volume knob with this that i found online. I suppose the only way to replace it is to open up the m-stage, but Im not sure what to do from there. Some advice would be very much appreciated.
> 
> An observation though, the back screws don't need a hex key, they're regular star screws.


 
   
  You don't need to open the amplifier in order to replace the volume knob. There is a little screw on the knob that holds it in place. A very small hex screw. Unscrew that and the knob will come off. After that you can also replace the front plate if you wish


----------



## beaver316

Ah so that's what that is for! Man im dumb. Thanks for letting me know, the replacement is now ordered!


----------



## bracko

Quote: 





beaver316 said:


> Ah so that's what that is for! Man im dumb. Thanks for letting me know, the replacement is now ordered!


 

 You're welcome. Can you show us the knob you ordered? I am not so fond of the original knob. It is a bit slippery to your fingers.


----------



## beaver316

Quote: 





bracko said:


> You're welcome. Can you show us the knob you ordered? I am not so fond of the original knob. It is a bit slippery to your fingers.


 
   
  It's linked in my comment above, this one
   
  http://www.ebay.com/itm/PKG1-30x22-Aluminum-STEREO-Hi-Fi-VOLUME-CONTROL-KNOB-w-/390317545470?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5ae0bd17fe#ht_2869wt_1108
   
  It will better match my silver plated m-stage.


----------



## EinZweiDrei

i wonder how would a phone like esw9a sound like on these with 0 gain.


----------



## LCMusicLover

Quote: 





einzweidrei said:


> i wonder how would a phone like esw9a sound like on these with 0 gain.


 
   
  Overall, I liked this amp -- it has plenty of power, although I imagine you'll be cranking it pretty far past noon on 0 gain.  Certainly with those phones having 42ohm impedance and 103 db sensitivity, you won't have any problem with the hum issue I had with my IEMs. Note, my Panasonics have 108db sensitivity and I typically got the volume around 10:30 - 11:30 when using them on 0 gain.


----------



## RagingBaboon

I'm really interested in this amp, but how does it sound with the HE-400? From what I hear, it's very similar to the Lehmann Black Cube Linear, which is designed for high-impedance headphones. So how will that affect the sound quality (if at all)? Does anyone have hands-on experience with this combo?


----------



## beaver316

Quote: 





ragingbaboon said:


> I'm really interested in this amp, but how does it sound with the HE-400? From what I hear, it's very similar to the Lehmann Black Cube Linear, which is designed for high-impedance headphones. So how will that affect the sound quality (if at all)? Does anyone have hands-on experience with this combo?


 
   
  I have the pair and it sounds awesome, you won't be disappointed at all.


----------



## RagingBaboon

Thanks man, just bought me a used one for 50 Euros off! The thought of having bought an amp that performs like a 700-Euro-model (the Black Cube Linear) for 180 Euros makes me very happy.


----------



## sinsin

A great post - something I can learn from! Thanks!


----------



## hifimanrookie

It even drives the he500 well, i know from own experience


----------



## LugBug1

Picked up one of these a week ago and popped in a LM4562. Sounds great with my K701's, very good match. I really like the tone it has, quite refined and slightly warm at the lower end, also good airy soundstage that is welcome for classical music. I'd say its a better match for the AKG's than the Magni that I got recently aswell. The magni is a little too "neutral" for the ultra transparent K701's.
  The m-stage is struggling with my LCD2's though, but that was to be expected with the power specs. The bass is loose and they lose authority and control from the mids down compared to more powerful amps including the Magni. I know the LCD2's are easier to drive than the HE500's so I'm surprised that the m-stage could drive them to satisfactory levels (and I don't mean volume wise). It's not that I don't believe you hifimanrookie, just saying  
   
  I've got a 627ap bias thingy coming and so I'll post some impressions when I receive this compared to the popular LM4562.
   
  All in all, the M-stage is great value and performs well above its price, but I wouldn't recommend it for orthos.


----------



## hifimanrookie

Quote: 





lugbug1 said:


> Picked up one of these a week ago and popped in a LM4562. Sounds great with my K701's, very good match. I really like the tone it has, quite refined and slightly warm at the lower end, also good airy soundstage that is welcome for classical music. I'd say its a better match for the AKG's than the Magni that I got recently aswell. The magni is a little too "neutral" for the ultra transparent K701's.
> The m-stage is struggling with my LCD2's though, but that was to be expected with the power specs. The bass is loose and they lose authority and control from the mids down compared to more powerful amps including the Magni. I know the LCD2's are easier to drive than the HE500's so I'm surprised that the m-stage could drive them to satisfactory levels (and I don't mean volume wise). It's not that I don't believe you hifimanrookie, just saying
> 
> I've got a 627ap bias thingy coming and so I'll post some impressions when I receive this compared to the popular LM4562.
> ...


 
  I said it drove the he500 well..didnt say excellent..ofcourse u have better amps..like the one i have now..but for the price it did well driving the he500 on gain 10 db..but i had the  first version and the class a opa 627 mod..maybe that made a difference in sound? Dont know..but for 249 the mstage did a fine job..but ofcourse if u do buy a he500 its best to invest more on an amp..the 337 with the tubes i have is best sounding amp i heard for the he500 under 1000 until now..and am not only one who says that..the 339 is his brother.
  funny is that the 337 dont do well with the hd800 and so so with the lcd series..it does well with the he400/500.. To my ears ofcourse..


----------



## andresgomes

nice review but does it have S/PDIF? any good DAC for it?


----------



## lawrywild

Quote: 





beaver316 said:


> It's linked in my comment above, this one
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/PKG1-30x22-Aluminum-STEREO-Hi-Fi-VOLUME-CONTROL-KNOB-w-/390317545470?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5ae0bd17fe#ht_2869wt_1108
> 
> It will better match my silver plated m-stage.


 

 Did it fit? Pics!


----------



## beaver316

Quote: 





lawrywild said:


> Did it fit? Pics!


 
   
  It should fit, the measurements are equal. But it hasn't arrived yet, i ordered from China which usually means 3-4 weeks shipping. I've tought myself patience having ordered many things from China in the past.


----------



## imackler

Hey all! Just bought a used M-Stage. It is the Class A version from Matrix Digi. The owner put in the Burr Brown OPA637AP with Class A Biasing Mod from Tam Audio. I thought that this opamp was for turning the M-Stage into a Class A amp? Am I crazy? Is it doing a disservice if the amp is already Class A? (I still have the original opamp). 
   
So I'm listening to a recording of Beethoven's 9th on high gain w/ my HD600 and the volume is almost maxed out and its just barely at a comfortable listening level? Is this because, as I've often heard, the M-stage benefits lower impedance phones, like the AKG line? Is it not ideal for the HD6xx headphones? (I know classical music is often mastered at lower volume levels...) 
   
Thanks patience w/ all the matrix-newb questions.


----------



## LCMusicLover

Quote: 





imackler said:


> Hey all! Just bought a used M-Stage. It is the Class A version from Matrix Digi. The owner put in the Burr Brown OPA637AP with Class A Biasing Mod from Tam Audio. I thought that this opamp was for turning the M-Stage into a Class A amp? Am I crazy? Is it doing a disservice if the amp is already Class A? (I still have the original opamp).
> 
> So I'm listening to a recording of Beethoven's 9th on high gain w/ my HD600 and the volume is almost maxed out and its just barely at a comfortable listening level? Is this because, as I've often heard, the M-stage benefits lower impedance phones, like the AKG line? Is it not ideal for the HD6xx headphones? (I know classical music is often mastered at lower volume levels...)
> 
> Thanks patience w/ all the matrix-newb questions.


 
  Hi: 
   
  It's not class A until after the biasing mod -- 'AB' I think.
   
  Also, make sure you're not on low gain, the dip switch diagram is misleading. Just try reversing your settings.  GLTY


----------



## imackler

Quote: 





lcmusiclover said:


> Hi:
> 
> It's not class A until after the biasing mod -- 'AB' I think.
> 
> Also, make sure you're not on low gain, the dip switch diagram is misleading. Just try reversing your settings.  GLTY


 
   
  Ha! Yup, I was on low gain...Well, that problem is solved! 
   
  I was just confused why Matrix would sell it as a Class A amp if you had to change the opamp before it became CLASS A. 
   
  The original opamp that came with it is OPA134PA. Would that have made it CLASS A as well?


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





imackler said:


> Ha! Yup, I was on low gain...Well, that problem is solved!
> 
> I was just confused why Matrix would sell it as a Class A amp if you had to change the opamp before it became CLASS A.
> 
> The original opamp that came with it is OPA134PA. Would that have made it CLASS A as well?


 
   
  The Op Amp does not drive the headphones directly.
   
  There is a discrete transistor Class A buffer between the Op Amp and the Headphone Jack.
   
  Personally, I'm not a big fan of the Class A OPA637. Gain must always be set to 18 dB or 20 dB as the OPA637 is NOT stable at lower gains.
  Take a look at their spec sheet: stable at gain > 5.
http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/opa637.pdf


----------



## hifimanrookie

Quote: 





chris j said:


> The Op Amp does not drive the headphones directly.
> 
> There is a discrete transistor Class A buffer between the Op Amp and the Headphone Jack.
> 
> ...


 
  I had my. Class a opa627 stabile on db gain 10.


----------



## Chris J

hifimanrookie said:


> I had my. Class a opa627 stabile on db gain 10.




Q. How do you know it wasn't oscillating at 1.2 MHz?

A. If you didn't measure it with an oscilloscope, then you don't know. Unless you fried your headphones, but are not sure why.


BTW.......I said OPA637, not OPA627!


----------



## hifimanrookie

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Q. How do you know it wasn't oscillating at 1.2 MHz?
> 
> A. If you didn't measure it with an oscilloscope, then you don't know. Unless you fried your headphones, but are not sure why.


 
  First of all..i dont need any equipment to see if the amp is clipping or having troubles in maintaining stable..
  an unstable amp..or any product for that matter sounds dirty..and in dirty i mean off...i feel that its forcing..i feel it with my cars..u can hear the engine struggling...i have the same with amps..my ears tell me a equipment is stable and working within the right borders..
   
  ofcourse to te 10000 % sure u need equipment..but most of us are not technicians..me either..am just a genius in putting pc's together for myself and friends..as u can see on my pics am now working on a completely watercooled hyper pc..yes everything! Except the psu..
   
  So to come back to ur line...as long my amp dont overheat or clip or even sound muddy and closed in..and sounds wonderfull open and loose..then i believe its okay..
   
  .i had a mstage for more then 2 years..using it for at least 2 hours at night straight sometimes 5!.. First with the he300 then the he400 and the last 4 weeks i used it with a he500..everyday..and the one who i sold it to uses it now with a he300 ( he also boight from me) and has been using it very loudly to metallica every day..no problems whatsoever .he loves the mstage..
   
  .so who knows that little amp wont  maybe have the whole mechanical lifecycle as a non opa627has.....
   
  but what i know is this..longtime rigourious testing of my own (using it) and the high level listening the new owner does since oktober last year.. ( that guy must be almost deaf i think..that high he listens to metallica) the little man didnt blink..for 3 years straight..not one single problem..for me thats proof its stable..a unstable amp would have broken down a long time ago..imho ofcourse..
   
  but its also possible ihad that unique one of a kind model that can cope with anything..
   
  i do have to say i had version 1...i heard newer versions are a bit more picky..like the old mercedes w123 diesels...they were built like tanks to last forever..and when i look on the highways..they do!but am doubting the newer models will do the same..no matter how much better they are.


----------



## Chris J

hifimanrookie said:


> First of all..i dont need any equipment to see if the amp is clipping or having troubles in maintaining stable..
> an unstable amp..or any product for that matter sounds dirty..and in dirty i mean off...i feel that its forcing..i feel it with my cars..u can hear the engine struggling...i have the same with amps..my ears tell me a equipment is stable and working within the right borders..ofcourse to te 10000 % sure u need equipment..but most of us are not technicians..me either..am just a genius in putting pc's together for myself and friends..as uc an see on my oics am now working on a completely watercooled hyper pc..yes everything! Except the psu.. So to come back to ur line...as long my amp dont overheat or clip or even sound muddy and closed in..and sounds wonderfull open and loose..then i believe its okay...i had a mstage for 2 years..using it for at least 2 hours at night straight sometimes 5!.. First with the he300 then the he400 and the last 4 weeks i used it with a he500..everyday..and the one who i sold it to uses it now with a he300 ( he also boight from me) and has been using it very loudly to metallica every day..no problems whatsoever..he loves the mstage...so who knows that little amp will maybe wont have the whole techical lifecycle and non opa627has.....but what i know is this..longtime rigourious testing of my own (using it) and the high level listening the new owner does ( that guy must be almost deaf i think..that high he listens to music) the little man didnt blink..for 3 years straight..not one single problem..for me thats proof it stable..a unstable amp would have broken down a long time ago..imho ofcourse..
> 
> but its also possible ihad that unique one of a kind model that can cope with anything..
> ...




You used it with an OPA637 in it for two years?

BTW, I said OPA637, not OPA627. Do you know the difference?

Do you know what 800 kHz ocsillation sounds like?

Do you know how to get rid of it?

Do you have any experience designing analog signal processing gear?


----------



## Chris J

double post


BTW...........why does everyone think they're an expert? :rolleyes:


----------



## hifimanrookie

Quote: 





chris j said:


> You used it with an OPA637 in it for two years?
> 
> Do you know what 800 kHz ocsillation sounds like?
> 
> ...


 
  Opa627...pls read..and its by now 3 years..
   
  rest of the questions:
  no
  no
  no
   
  and my answer to all..who cares? I wanna enjoy my music..not bothering bout technicalities
   
  u have to admit though..having an amp working for 3 years for hours a day without any mishaps..also not in the sound...that means somthing is right..right?
  many audiophile friends i have of which actually own multi thousand worth of rigs actually were surprised how my budget little friend sounded..and not one said it was sounding weird or clipping ..yes they said it didnt sound as a premium amp..but they said..and i mean all of them..that it sounded much better then the price it has..yes on gain 10db and OPA627 class a from tamaudio..
   
  i actually had contact with them concerning updating from standard to opa627...i heard a rumor bout heat.... And they told me it would have no problems at all...no extreme gain needed..and they are one of the most respected matrix dealers in the world..and i trust my experience of 3 years and their good name more then bothering myself with statistics about oscillation..
   
  but hey..i am probably only one who only trust on own experience and specialists of the brand then on litterally multi thousands worth of equipment u have to calibrate professionally before u can even trust the outcome of that stuff...so call me crazy
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  but as i said many times..i respect any other opinion..if u feel it important to use that kind of equipment to decide if something is right or not..its ur choice..and i respect that..
   
  thats why headfi is so good to be on..sharing each others thought and opinions..


----------



## Chris J

hifimanrookie said:


> Opa627...pls read..and its by now 3 years..
> 
> rest of the questions:
> no
> ...




looks like we're both confused.....I doubt you would have trouble with the OPA627.

OPA627 is the Op Amp to use. You are correct!

It's stable at 0 dB gain.

Not too sure why Tam sells the OPA637 though.....


----------



## imackler

So. I don't have any experience with this stuff. Basically, you'd recommend I should take out the OPA637AP and put back in the original (OPA134PA)? If it helps, I'm only using it with the HD600/HD650 and on high gain so maybe it will be stable enough...
   
If I should, any recommendations where I get a little hex screwdriver...and do I need any other special tools?


----------



## hifimanrookie

Quote: 





chris j said:


> looks like we're both confused.....I doubt you would have trouble with the OPA627.
> 
> OPA627 is the Op Amp to use. You are correct!
> 
> ...


 
  Yes we were..u talked bout 637 and i bout the 627..friends again?
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  I will tell u a secret..i actually wanted to upgrade from opa627 to 637...and as always i did   my homework..and read bout the high gains needed..so i contacted them again..funny thing is that they replied  me that the 637 was not an upgrade soundwise.eventhough its more expensive...and they advised me to get the quattro..i can remember that i found that weird..they didnt even reply on my gain question of the 637.. And so i didnt bother and kept the 627..
   
  So maybe ur right..i dont know myself...as.i only have experience with the opa627..and i dont talk bout products i dont know personally.. Was best investment i did for the little friend of mine to be honest


----------



## Chris J

hifimanrookie said:


> Yes we were..u talked bout 637 and i bout the 627..friends again?
> 
> I will tell u a secret..i actually wanted to upgrade from opa627 to 637...and as always i did   my homework..and read bout the high gains needed..so i contacted them again..funny thing is that they replied  me that the 637 was not an upgrade soundwise.eventhough its more expensive...and they advised me to get the quattro..i can remember that i found that weird..they didnt even reply on my gain question of the 637.. And so i didnt bother and kept the 627..
> 
> So maybe ur right..i dont know myself...as.i only have experience with the opa627..and i dont talk bout products i dont know personally.. Was best investment i did for the little friend of mine to be honest




Sorry about that.
I guess I can't read! LOL

Strange how they answered your OPA637 questions.
Glad your friend likes the M Stage......!

No more of my bickering!


----------



## Chris J

imackler said:


> So. I don't have any experience with this stuff. Basically, you'd recommend I should take out the OPA637AP and put back in the original (
> OPA134PA)
> ? If it helps, I'm only using it with the HD600/HD650 and on high gain so maybe it will be stable enough...
> 
> ...




I would stick with the OPA2134.
Even though your amp is set to high gain and the OPA637 is OK for high gain, one of these days you'll forget and try another gain setting! :mad:

When I get some time I'll try to find the Op Amp rolling instructions, or someone else may know where they are? I think someone posted something on YouTube.


----------



## hifimanrookie

Quote: 





chris j said:


> I would stick with the OPA2134.
> Even though your amp is set to high gain and the OPA637 is OK for high gain, one of these days you'll forget and try another gain setting!
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Or try the opa627..safe and sound.


----------



## Alexein Aner

I'll hopefully receive mine today. My body is ready.


----------



## LugBug1

Quote: 





chris j said:


> OPA627 is the Op Amp to use. You are correct!
> 
> It's stable at 0 dB gain.


 
  Chris, is the opa627 ok at all gain settings on the m-stage? I have mine set at 10db.
   
  Just I've got one of those opa627bias A mods coming in the post


----------



## hifimanrookie

Quote: 





lugbug1 said:


> Chris, is the opa627 ok at all gain settings on the m-stage? I have mine set at 10db.
> 
> Just I've got one of those opa627bias A mods coming in the post


 
  Dont u worry..opa627 class a mod works flawlessly..i used it for 2 years with gain on zero for my he300 i had..and until now after 3 years still not one fault.


----------



## LugBug1

Quote: 





hifimanrookie said:


> Dont u worry..opa627 class a mod works flawlessly..i used it for 2 years with gain on zero for my he300 i had..and until now after 3 years still not one fault.


 
  Good stuff thanks


----------



## Chris J

hifimanrookie said:


> Dont u worry..opa627 class a mod works flawlessly..i used it for 2 years with gain on zero for my he300 i had..and until now after 3 years still not one fault.




I agree, the OPA627 is fine for 0dB gain.

Personally, I leave the gain at 10 dB but I use Q701s.


----------



## hifimanrookie

Quote: 





chris j said:


> I agree, the OPA627 is fine for 0dB gain.
> 
> Personally, I leave the gain at 10 dB but I use Q701s.


 
  Yep i agree also..for my he300 i used 0db gain
  for my he400 and 500 i used 10db gain
   
  never used higher then that..never needed that.


----------



## imackler

So, I put the OPA2134 back in. Now, if I want to do the Class A mod in a safe way, even for low gain, what opamp do you guys recommed? the OPA627? Should I buy one from Tam Audio w/ class A biasing mod already done or is there another site you recommend? I'm totally open to recommendations... Thanks all! 
   
  (Feel free to comment, but I just read 50 pages: hifimanrookie will probably recommend the Class A OPA627 Mod and Chris J will probably recommend the LM4562NA. Thanks, guys!)


----------



## Chris J

imackler said:


> So, I put the OPA2134 back in. Now, if I want to do the Class A mod in a safe way, even for low gain, what opamp do you guys recommed? the OPA627? Should I buy one from Tam Audio w/ class A biasing mod already done or is there another site you recommend? I'm totally open to recommendations... Thanks all!
> 
> (Feel free to comment, but I just read 50 pages: hifimanrookie will probably recommend the Class A OPA627 Mod and Chris J will probably recommend the LM4562NA. Thanks, guys!)




I recommend the............never mind, you've already read my posts! 

Seriously, the change in sound between various Op Amps is actually very, very subtle.


----------



## hifimanrookie

Quote: 





chris j said:


> I recommend the............never mind, you've already read my posts!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  And my posts too 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  And i agree..diff in sq is subtle..but in my eyes worth it..


----------



## DaemonSire

I have a quick question about the M-Stage that I'm possibly a bit concerned with.  I've had one now for a few months and it seems to work fine with my AKG Q701 and Grado SR80s.  But if I plug in my HD25-1 II, I can hear a constant 'hum' as soon as I plug them in.
   
  The hum is the *exact* same level regardless of gain or volume or opamp.  I use the M-Stage with my Q701's 90% of the time and didn't notice it until I just switched over to the HD25-1 II.  When I first received the amp, I tested it with all my headphones and I don't recall hearing it at that time.  However, it may have been there and I just didn't notice it.  If I could only go back and check again 
   
  Now since my SR80 and Q701 are both open while the HD25-1 are closed, I'm wondering if I'm just noticing it because they are more sensitive and isolating.
   
  Reading the forums, some have mentioned a similar issue relating to ground loops.  But those seem to change with the gain and volume on the pot, while mine doesn't.  I've loosened and tightened the screw on the bottom of the unit just in case but didn't help.  I opened it up and took a look and everything seems fine as far as I can tell.  I have the OPA627 Class A opamp in there, so I swapped it back to the stock opamp but no change.
   
  Can anyone with a similar headphone or possibly an iem comment on this?  Is everything fine and the M-Stage just has a slight power hum to it that I'm only picking up on sensitive phones?  Or should I be concerned?  This is my first real desktop amp (former amp is a PA2V2) so I'm not sure if this is ordinary behaviour.  I seem to recall in a comparison thread between the M-Stage and the O2, that the M-Stage had a bit of noise while the O2 was entirely 'black'.
   
  I like the sound of the M-Stage but want to make sure my unit isn't defective either.

 Thanks


----------



## Bee inthe Attic

If some of you could save me 225 pages of reading... how is the M-stage with Senn HD 600's?
   
  Specifically, how is the *USB Matrix M-stage v 2.1 with OPA627AP Class A Biasing Mod* with the HD 600's?
  I'm currently powering my HD 600's with a FiiO E9/E10 stack, and am wondering if the M-stage (with USB and mod above) will provide a significant upgrade? Thoughts?


----------



## imackler

Quote: 





bee inthe attic said:


> If some of you could save me 225 pages of reading... how is the M-stage with Senn HD 600's?
> 
> Specifically, how is the *USB Matrix M-stage v 2.1 with OPA627AP Class A Biasing Mod* with the HD 600's?
> I'm currently powering my HD 600's with a FiiO E9/E10 stack, and am wondering if the M-stage (with USB and mod above) will provide a significant upgrade? Thoughts?


 
   
  Personally, I liked the HD600 with the OPA637 Class A mod more than I did than the base opamp; I imagine the same could be said with the OPA627 Class A mod, too. I would recommend it if you're using high gain, and with the HD600, you need to, especially if you're listening to classical music, mastered at lower volumes. But I think I enjoy my Headroom Micro with the HD600 more. I wouldn't see any reason to get the Matrix M-stage over a Headroom Micro, if you're buying them at new price.


----------



## Chris J

bee inthe attic said:


> If some of you could save me 225 pages of reading... how is the M-stage with Senn HD 600's?
> 
> Specifically, how is the *USB Matrix M-stage v 2.1 with OPA627AP Class A Biasing Mod* with the HD 600's?
> I'm currently powering my HD 600's with a FiiO E9/E10 stack, and am wondering if the M-stage (with USB and mod above) will provide a significant upgrade? Thoughts?




I'll save you some reading........don't use the OPA637, It's not compatible with the M Stage.

Stick with the OPA627 or equivalent.



daemonsire said:


> I have a quick question about the M-Stage that I'm possibly a bit concerned with.  I've had one now for a few months and it seems to work fine with my AKG Q701 and Grado SR80s.  But if I plug in my HD25-1 II, I can hear a constant 'hum' as soon as I plug them in.
> 
> The hum is the *exact* same level regardless of gain or volume or opamp.  I use the M-Stage with my Q701's 90% of the time and didn't notice it until I just switched over to the HD25-1 II.  When I first received the amp, I tested it with all my headphones and I don't recall hearing it at that time.  However, it may have been there and I just didn't notice it.  If I could only go back and check again
> 
> ...





I get a faint hum thru my Shure SE-210 IEMs.


----------



## imackler

Quote: 





chris j said:


> I'll save you some reading........don't use the OPA637, It's not compatible with the M Stage.


 
   
  Is it not compatible on high gain, either? Tam Audio sells this opamp to mod the Matrix M-stage; is it not safe at all? I've read 50 pages of this thread and haven't figured out why yet, really. I'd appreciate any help...
   
  Tam Audio says regarding the OPA637 Class A Mod: "3.9K is the recommended value for the resistors. You can also choose other values if you know how it works in this mod. Otherwise, just go with the default." 
   
  Is the resistor value something that can be adjusted on a M-stage? Does anyone know how? What is the stock value at?


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





imackler said:


> Is it not compatible on high gain, either? Tam Audio sells this opamp to mod the Matrix M-stage; is it not safe at all? I've read 50 pages of this thread and haven't figured out why yet, really. I'd appreciate any help...
> 
> Tam Audio says regarding the OPA637 Class A Mod: "3.9K is the recommended value for the resistors. You can also choose other values if you know how it works in this mod. Otherwise, just go with the default."
> 
> Is the resistor value something that can be adjusted on a M-stage? Does anyone know how? What is the stock value at?


 
   
  I have no idea why they sell the OPA637, it's not stable at gains of 0 and 10 dB.
  It's OK for 18 or 20 dB of gain.
  It can be used in some audio gear, but is not suitable for a Matrix M Stage.
  The M Stage amp may oscillate at a very high frequency......300 kHz, 1 MHz........or higher....
  Oscillation can destroy headphones and amps.
   
  I have used the OPA627 with the resistor Tam Audio installed, I preferred a stock LM4562.    YMMV!


----------



## imackler

Quote: 





chris j said:


> I have no idea why they sell the OPA637, it's not stable at gains of 0 and 10 dB.
> It's OK for 18 or 20 dB of gain.
> It can be used in some audio gear, but is not suitable for a Matrix M Stage.
> The M Stage amp may oscillate at a very high frequency......300 kHz, 1 MHz........or higher....
> ...


 
   
  Do you know what Tam Audio means here: ""3.9K is the recommended value for the resistors. You can also choose other values if you know how it works in this mod. Otherwise, just go with the default." ? Can the resistor value be changed?


----------



## Alexein Aner

Anyone know how long it takes Tamaudio to ship?


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





imackler said:


> Do you know what Tam Audio means here: ""3.9K is the recommended value for the resistors. You can also choose other values if you know how it works in this mod. Otherwise, just go with the default." ? Can the resistor value be changed?


 
   
  Sure you can change it, you can go up or down a bit.


----------



## hifimanrookie

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Sure you can change it, you can go up or down a bit.


 
  With opa627. No need to change anything..am always very cautious with changing those kind of things..i believe: if its not necessary..dont do it..imho ofcourse


----------



## imackler

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Sure you can change it, you can go up or down a bit.


 
   
  How do you do that?


----------



## DaemonSire

thanks Chris J.
   
  I'm still a bit concerned though.  I tried another set of closed headphones (the cheap Monoprice 8323) and the same buzz/hum was there.  If I cover the earcups on the SR80's, I can faintly hear it.
   
  Am I being overly sensitive to it?  I can notice on the pause between tracks and it is getting annoying.
   
  If it was a grounding issue, wouldn't it change with the gain/volume settings?
   
  I've read through many of the pages in this thread and many people have said that it is essentially silent on many headphones.  The HD25-1 II are 70ohms, while a low impedance, isn't super low.
   
  Anyone else that can weigh in on if the unit is defective would be greatly appreciated.
   
  Thanks


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





imackler said:


> How do you do that?


 
  Change the resistors.
  Both of them.
  Somewhere in this vast WasteLand called head Fi there is a thread where someone recommends going up or down a bit........maybe up to 4.3 kOhms or down to 3.3 kOhms, if I recall.
   
  If I may ask, what are you trying to do? If I knew that I may be able to answer the question better.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





daemonsire said:


> thanks Chris J.
> 
> I'm still a bit concerned though.  I tried another set of closed headphones (the cheap Monoprice 8323) and the same buzz/hum was there.  If I cover the earcups on the SR80's, I can faintly hear it.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Ooops, I missed this.
  So now I post again.........
  Right now I'm listening using some very sensitive ATH-ESW10s, I don't hear any hum, but if I turn the volume up _*way*_ past the point where I would ever listen I hear some faint hiss. But I don't hear any bzzzzzz
  Seems I can only hear the bzzzzzzz with IEMs.
  For anyone else just catching up with this conversation, the only amp I have that works with the IEMs without hearing a bzzzz is a battery operated iBasso D12.
  Sounds like you can live with the bzzzz when using the SR-80s?
   
  As for whether it would change with gain and/or volume settings, it should, but really it depends.
   
  Anybody else?


----------



## DaemonSire

thanks for the reply.  The bzzz that you speak of I do hear as well if I turn it up way way past listening (like almost 80%+ on the dial).
   
  The hum is there even if the pot is at 0.


----------



## hifimanrookie

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Ooops, I missed this.
> So now I post again.........
> Right now I'm listening using some very sensitive ATH-ESW10s, I don't hear any hum, but if I turn the volume up _*way*_ past the point where I would ever listen I hear some faint hiss. But I don't hear any bzzzzzz
> Seems I can only hear the bzzzzzzz with IEMs.
> ...


 
  I also heard a very light bzzz or hummmz when i used my westone um3x on the mstage..my other phones were dead quiet..so i suppose it doesnt like iems?


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





hifimanrookie said:


> I also heard a very light bzzz or hummmz when i used my westone um3x on the mstage..my other phones were dead quiet..so i suppose it doesnt like iems?


 
   
  Yep.
  That's my experience too.
  No "bzzz" audible on any non-IEM style headphone.
  A faint but irritating bzzzz on my Shure SE-210, the only decent IEMs I own!
   
  BTW, I get a faint higher pitched "bzzzzz" from my FiiO E17 even when it is running off battery and not plugged into any source or charger........!


----------



## LCMusicLover

If you dig back about 5 pages, you'll see that I had the same experience using 1964Ears V.3s with this amp -- low hum when no music is playing, and during very quiet passages. It doesn't matter what gain the amp is set for, or what level the volume knob is set to -- hum is always the same.
   
  It appears to be a feature of this amp. I picked an Op627, which didn't help.  Seems to be always there , but only noticeable with very sensitive phones (my 1964Ears are 117db/mW). Just loud enough to be annoying.
   
  I ended up getting a RSA Shadow, which I love.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





lcmusiclover said:


> If you dig back about 5 pages, you'll see that I had the same experience using 1964Ears V.3s with this amp -- low hum when no music is playing, and during very quiet passages. It doesn't matter what gain the amp is set for, or what level the volume knob is set to -- hum is always the same.
> 
> It appears to be a feature of this amp. I picked an Op627, which didn't help.  Seems to be always there , but only noticeable with very sensitive phones (my 1964Ears are 117db/mW). Just loud enough to be annoying.
> 
> I ended up getting a RSA Shadow, which I love.


 
   
  Rolling in another Op Amp _*ain't*_ gonna fix this, peeps.
  It's the power supply design.


----------



## hifimanrookie

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Rolling in another Op Amp _*ain't*_ gonna fix this, peeps.
> It's the power supply design.


 
  Yep i agree on this one..i also think its a design thingie..i have same thing with my 337..lucky enough i dont use any iem's anymore, but powerhungry planars.


----------



## LCMusicLover

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Rolling in another Op Amp _*ain't*_ gonna fix this, peeps.
> It's the power supply design.


 
   
  Yes, I didn't expect that it would fix the problem, so I wasn't surprised. I had ordered the opamp before I knew about the hum problem. It would have been silly not to try it since the opamp was already in hand, wouldn't it?
   
  And I think it would have been silly to leave that data out when I was reporting my experience.


----------



## Alexein Aner

I received mine today and it appears I'll need a better DAC. Even at max. volume, the Fiio E7 doesn't do much. Laptop > E7 > M-Stage > HD 600.


----------



## Taowolf51

Quote: 





alexein aner said:


> I received mine today and it appears I'll need a better DAC. Even at max. volume, the Fiio E7 doesn't do much. Laptop > E7 > M-Stage > HD 600.


 
   
  Do much how? Do you mean that you don't get enough volume, or the quality is poor?
   
  If it's the first, be sure to change the gain settings, second be sure to use the volume knob on the M-Stage.
   
  If it's the second, it's most likely because you're double amping.


----------



## Alexein Aner

Quote: 





taowolf51 said:


> Do much how? Do you mean that you don't get enough volume, or the quality is poor?
> 
> If it's the first, be sure to change the gain settings, second be sure to use the volume knob on the M-Stage.
> 
> If it's the second, it's most likely because you're double amping.


 
  I'm assuming I'll have to crack this open to change the gain. How would I resolve the double amping issue (I was under the impression that w/o the E9 it acted as a DAC)?
   
  Thanks for the info.


----------



## Taowolf51

Quote: 





alexein aner said:


> I'm assuming I'll have to crack this open to change the gain. How would I resolve the double amping issue (I was under the impression that w/o the E9 it acted as a DAC)?
> 
> Thanks for the info.


 
   
  Nah, gain switches are on the bottom, check the manual to see the gain levels (be sure to make both switches the same).
   
  The E7 is a portable amp/DAC combo, and I'm not sure if you can just use it as a DAC without pairing it with the E9.


----------



## hifimanrookie

Quote: 





taowolf51 said:


> Nah, gain switches are on the bottom, check the manual to see the gain levels (be sure to make both switches the same).
> 
> The E7 is a portable amp/DAC combo, and I'm not sure if you can just use it as a DAC without pairing it with the E9.


 
  Doesnt the e7 has an unamped line out? That way u go around the internal amp..my hm602 for instance has a headphone connector and a line out connector..second connector bypasses the internal amp..i use that to connect it to my amp..sound was so much better! maybe the e7 has the samething?
   
  another thing..when using a pc in front of ur dac..put volume on max on pc..and also max on dac..so u only control volume with the knob on the mstage..just a tip..
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  concernin the gain...imho for the hd600 u dont need more then gain on 10db..the dip switches are under the amp..they look like the dipswitches on a pc motherboard...u can find manuals all over the net...good luck!


----------



## Taowolf51

Quote: 





hifimanrookie said:


> Doesnt the e7 has an unamped line out? That way u go around the internal amp..my hm602 for instance has a headphone connector and a line out connector..second connected goes around the internal amp..i use that to connect it to my amp..sound was so much better! maybe the e7 has the samething?


 
   
  It does, but it's proprietary (the connector at the bottom in the middle), and as far as I know (I may be wrong), it only works with the E9 desktop amp.


----------



## hifimanrookie

Quote: 





taowolf51 said:


> It does, but it's proprietary (the connector at the bottom in the middle), and as far as I know (I may be wrong), it only works with the E9 desktop amp.


 
  MAybe someone can make an adapter for it?


----------



## Taowolf51

Quote: 





hifimanrookie said:


> MAybe someone can make an adapter for it?


 
   
  I actually just found this, it should do exactly what Alexein wants.
   
  http://www.amazon.com/FiiO-L7-Line-Dock-Cable/dp/B004QVNS0S/ref=pd_sim_e_8


----------



## hifimanrookie

Quote: 





taowolf51 said:


> I actually just found this, it should do exactly what Alexein wants.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/FiiO-L7-Line-Dock-Cable/dp/B004QVNS0S/ref=pd_sim_e_8


 
  Yep looks like it..thanks for helping him out.


----------



## mikaelmark

I have dual OPA627 on DIP-adapter with two 3,55 kOhm resistors between from Stephen at lasercollection in my amp clone, and he tell me there should be no hum that I also experiencing.
  I have an 24 stepped 50 kOhm volume pot and has placed the toroid in a separate box on the outside. I have also grounded the amp´s chassi to the wall outlets earth (as I assume it should be).
   
  The humming/ buzzing is at the same level regardless to volume or gain settings. The headphones I´ve used is HD 600 and HD 800.
  The sound should be better (lower noise and distiorsion etc) with lower gain settings, but at 0 gain, I got to have the volume at about 75% and with 10 db gain I will have the volume at 50 - 55%. May the sound be worser if having the volume to high, sit it may be better having a higher gain setting that will allow lower turned volume?
   
  Wishing you all an Happy easter!
   
  Regards: Mikael


----------



## Chris J

mikaelmark said:


> I have dual OPA627 on DIP-adapter with two 3,55 kOhm resistors between from Stephen at lasercollection in my amp clone, and he tell me there should be no hum that I also experiencing.
> I have an 24 stepped 50 kOhm volume pot and has placed the toroid in a separate box on the outside. I have also grounded the amp´s chassi to the wall outlets earth (as I assume it should be).
> 
> The humming/ buzzing is at the same level regardless to volume or gain settings. The headphones I´ve used is HD 600 and HD 800.
> ...




Yes the chassis should all be grounded to the wall outlet's (earth) ground.

I'm not surprised that moving the toroid made no difference. Toroids do not leak much magnetic field.
But I am very surprised that you can hear the hum thru the Senn HD600.
Can't really comment on the HD800.

I wouldn't worry too much about the position of the volume control.


----------



## Maxvla

Copied from the HD800 thread:

After my positive experience with the Matrix X-Sabre and having known about the M-Stage being a popular inexpensive amp for HD800s, I began to recommend it to a few people in this thread and elsewhere who were trying to build a amp/DAC combo for HD800s for $1000 or less. I recommended the $600 Concero and the $260 M-Stage. A week or so later I decided to get one for myself so that I wasn't just recommending blindly. I got it Thursday and got it plugged in and playing on Friday and it's been going nearly 24 hours a day since then, only taking breaks when I was comparing with the BHA-1. I got the M-Stage with USB DAC for an extra $30 because why the hell not, and initially listened through the built in DAC.

At first I was pleasantly surprised at the performance, it wasn't super detailed, but it seemed clean with a wide though thin sound. I honestly didn't expect much from this DAC since it was so cheap, and after listening for a while longer I began encountering some showstopping harshness on some tracks. I would say this DAC could be a decent stand in DAC if you had to be without, but you'd want to keep the volume below live. The sound was dynamic and punchy, but not overly clear or well textured. The harshness became regular as I began to recognize it everywhere, but most of the time it was ignored easily enough.

Having given a few hours to the onboard DAC, I was ready to move up to a real DAC and hooked up the X-Sabre to the M-Stage and gave it a listen. The difference was as expected given the $1070 price difference in the DACs, but I was also relieved to know most of the negative bits about the M-Stage was from the DAC, and not the amp. With the X-Sabre the M-Stage opened right up with very good clarity and without any of the previous harshness. After listening for a few hours and noting that the performance was really special, I knew the next step was to compare to the BHA-1. I was reasonably sure before making the switch that I knew what I was going to hear in the difference, but after having listened to the built in DAC, the X-Sabre -> M-Stage combo was worryingly good.

With the X-Sabre and BHA-1 in balanced mode and balanced connection to the HD800s, I listened to a dozen or so specific tracks I thought would highlight differences easiest between the M-Stage and BHA-1. Despite the balanced connection and the price difference, the performance was really not as much better as one might expect. I was right, though, in what I did find. As I described in my post above about mid-fi vs high end, the main aspects people focus on were better, but not a lot better. The big strides for the BHA-1 were in the refinement areas, textures, layering and the sort. There is certainly a distinct difference in performance between these 2 amps, but in the core aspects, it is remarkably close.

I am glad to say my faith in the reviews of the M-Stage/HD800 combo was not unfounded. I will certainly recommend this combo to anyone wanting to step into high end with the headphone first. It is the most important part, by far, but not spending a truckload on the amp right away takes careful consideration. The M-Stage is a great stepping stone for the HD800s, such that you could even make a DAC upgrade before worrying about the amp. Listening to the X-Sabre -> M-Stage -> HD800, is truly a high end experience, though just barely. There is plenty of room to improve, but it is mostly in the refinement areas that take good to magical.


----------



## elwappo99

Quote: 





maxvla said:


> Copied from the HD800 thread:
> 
> After my positive experience with the Matrix X-Sabre and having known about the M-Stage being a popular inexpensive amp for HD800s, I began to recommend it to a few people in this thread and elsewhere who were trying to build a amp/DAC combo for HD800s for $1000 or less. I recommended the $600 Concero and the $260 M-Stage. A week or so later I decided to get one for myself so that I wasn't just recommending blindly. I got it Thursday and got it plugged in and playing on Friday and it's been going nearly 24 hours a day since then, only taking breaks when I was comparing with the BHA-1. I got the M-Stage with USB DAC for an extra $30 because why the hell not, and initially listened through the built in DAC.
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  Incredibly interesting finding here. I also originally bought the MStage as a recommendation for my Denon D7000, but I have found this thing is far more competent than I originally gave it credit for. I really like this unit for a strange variety of headphones. I also have found this thing really does well when I hook it up to my Audio-GD reference 1, vs lower end DACs. Really does scale well. I'm curious to give the HD800 a run with it now. I always found the BHA-1 a little too hot for me : /
   
  What opamp are you running in this guy?


----------



## Maxvla

Whatever is stock.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





maxvla said:


> Copied from the HD800 thread:
> 
> After my positive experience with the Matrix X-Sabre and having known about the M-Stage being a popular inexpensive amp for HD800s, I began to recommend it to a few people in this thread and elsewhere who were trying to build a amp/DAC combo for HD800s for $1000 or less. I recommended the $600 Concero and the $260 M-Stage. A week or so later I decided to get one for myself so that I wasn't just recommending blindly. I got it Thursday and got it plugged in and playing on Friday and it's been going nearly 24 hours a day since then, only taking breaks when I was comparing with the BHA-1. I got the M-Stage with USB DAC for an extra $30 because why the hell not, and initially listened through the built in DAC.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Um, um, um, um, um...........
  I think I'm speechless!
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  Are you trying to save us $1,000? LOL!
  I think I'll print your M Stage vs. BHA-1 review and frame it.
  I was thinking about getting the Bryston, but now, I ask myself, why bother?
   
  Personally, I think I'll try getting a kick butt DAC and see how I like it before I even considering EVER getting a better headphone amp!


----------



## Maxvla

No, they are not the same. The M-Stage is just a good value amp that sounds better than it's price point. The BHA-1 is the better amp for sure.


----------



## hifimanrookie

Quote: 





maxvla said:


> No, they are not the same. The M-Stage is just a good value amp that sounds better than it's price point. The BHA-1 is the better amp for sure.


 
  Sorry for getting into this conversation..but..the mstage is one heck of an amp for the money...a steal! but ofcourse for more money..and i say much more..u ofcourse can get better sounding amps.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





maxvla said:


> No, they are not the same. The M-Stage is just a good value amp that sounds better than it's price point. The BHA-1 is the better amp for sure.


 
   
  Ahhh...now I understand. A relatively small improvement for a relatively large financial outlay.
   
  Now the big question:
  How does the M Stage compare to the Bryston when the Bryston is used Single Ended Input and Single Ended Output? This is assuming that the headphone is a reasonable load for the Matrix.
  I'm sure the HD800 does not stress the M Stage unduly.
   
  HiFi Rookie:
  hey man, it's an open conversation!


----------



## Maxvla

The unbalanced out of the BHA-1 IMO is not as good as the balanced. It is intended to be a balanced amp, so I evaluate it as such.


----------



## elwappo99

Quote: 





maxvla said:


> The unbalanced out of the BHA-1 IMO is not as good as the balanced. It is intended to be a balanced amp, so I evaluate it as such.


 
   
  It's not fair to compare the BHA-1 as a SE amp at all. The SE is pretty sad compared to the balanced.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





elwappo99 said:


> It's not fair to compare the BHA-1 as a SE amp at all. The SE is pretty sad compared to the balanced.


 
   
  I think it is fair to compare the BHA-1 in SE to another SE amp.
  The Bryston has (2) SE inputs.
  And not all headphones can be converted to balanced operation.


----------



## Maxvla

Should you evaluate a Ferrari as a grocery getter just because it can?


----------



## elwappo99

Quote: 





chris j said:


> I think it is fair to compare the BHA-1 in SE to another SE amp.
> The Bryston has (2) SE inputs.
> And not all headphones can be converted to balanced operation.


 
   
  I don't think it's fair to say "the mstage outperforms this $1300 amplifier!" if you aren't going to compare it to the full $1300. Using it in SE will bypass half of the circuitry
   
  I don't see how having a SE input is relevant at all. 
   
  All headphones can be converted to balanced connections.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





elwappo99 said:


> I don't think it's fair to say "the mstage outperforms this $1300 amplifier!" if you aren't going to compare it to the full $1300. Using it in SE will bypass half of the circuitry


 
   
  These arguments are turning out absolutely ridiculous........
  Anyway...............No, SE uses the same input stage, Bryston reconfigures the input stage into balanced or SE depending on how you select the input.
   
  SE output still passes the signal thru both the inverting and non-inverting output stage.
   
  But it would not surprise me if the SE Bryston still sounded better than the M Stage.
  It is up to the purchaser to figure out if they want to pay for a M Stage or a BHA-1, i.e. is the Brytson that much better?
  Personally I'd rather have the BHA-1 over the Matrix Quatro without having heard either. The Quatro is...........well, not the greatest balanced topology.
   
  Contrary to popular beleif I'm not an idiot.
  I'm out.


----------



## hifimanrookie

Quote: 





chris j said:


> These arguments are turning out absolutely ridiculous........
> Anyway...............No, SE uses the same input stage, Bryston reconfigures the input stage into balanced or SE depending on how you select the input.
> 
> SE output still passes the signal thru both the inverting and non-inverting output stage.
> ...


 
  Ur. Right on some points..it would be rediculus if a 249 worth of amp would better a 1300 worth of amp..redeculus as that 1300 worth of amp would be a shame then for that company in my eyes!
   
  Yes, the mstage is almost unbelievable good for the money..but when u go up in the chain there are much better amps..like my 337 for my he500..i had a mstage..but after hearing the 337 i was stunned How that amp made my he500 sound..it was on another level..so i had to have one myself..i tried burson, musical fidelity, shiit, violectric, bottlehead crack and even one of the cheaper woo audio's..but i loved the 337 the most with my he500....so  i sold my beloved mstage..and until now (4months ago) never looked back..but i am sure  that my new project, a custommade amp with dac inside, made by blue circle audio will blow my 337 out of the water..hope to get it in november as the due time is 32-34 weeks..


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





hifimanrookie said:


> Ur. Right on some points..it would be rediculus if a 249 worth of amp would better a 1300 worth of amp..redeculus as that 1300 worth of amp would be a shame then for that company in my eyes!
> 
> Yes, the mstage is almost unbelievable good for the money..but when u go up in the chain there are much better amps..like my 337 for my he500..i had a mstage..but after hearing the 337 i was stunned How that amp made my he500 sound..it was on another level..so i had to have one myself..i tried burson, musical fidelity, shiit, violectric, bottlehead crack and even one of the cheaper woo audio's..but i loved the 337 the most with my he500....so  i sold my beloved mstage..and until now (4months ago) never looked back..but i am sure  that my new project, a custommade amp with dac inside, made by blue circle audio will blow my 337 out of the water..hope to get it in november as the due time is 32-34 weeks..


 
   
  Hey!
  The Blue Circle amps are made a few miles away from where I live!


----------



## hifimanrookie

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Hey!
> The Blue Circle amps are made a few miles away from where I live!


 
  Then u probably know they make some spectacular amps


----------



## rawrster

I've been looking at the M-Stage for a while now and I've been seeing some ad listings for this amp saying Class A. Does that mean the class A mod is no longer necessary?


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





hifimanrookie said:


> Then u probably know they make some spectacular amps


 
   
  Yes, they have a great reputation!
  Quote: 





rawrster said:


> I've been looking at the M-Stage for a while now and I've been seeing some ad listings for this amp saying Class A. Does that mean the class A mod is no longer necessary?


 
   
  The Matrix M Stage is basically an Op Amp fiollowed by a _DISCRETE OUTPUT STAGE._
  The stock Op Amp is NOT running in Class A.
  The discrete Output stage is running in Class A.
   
_Confusing, ain't it?_
   
  BTW, I don't use an Op Amp with the Class A mod in my M Stage_._


----------



## suryand

Hi men, I would like to know if any of you have tested the Matrix with the Beyer DT770 Pro 80 ohm and the Denon D5000.
  Please can you give me your opinion?
   
  Kind regards!


----------



## beaver316

I posted about a month ago a link to a silver volume pot which I was planning to use to replace the black one on the M-stage, well it finally arrived today. I totally love the feel of it, solid aluminium. It looks pretty damn sexy too.
   
   

   
  My camera phone will have to do for now, maybe I'll post some better pics tomorrow. Something else to mention, travel feels far more smooth now, it just glides so effortlessly. With the black pot you always need to give it that initial nudge before it starts moving, but not with this. Best $4 I spent in quite some time.


----------



## Maxvla

That's quite nice, can you link it again? I'd love to find one in black. Only complaint I have of the M-Stage is that the knob is small so it's harder to turn than it should be.


----------



## beaver316

Quote: 





maxvla said:


> That's quite nice, can you link it again? I'd love to find one in black. Only complaint I have of the M-Stage is that the knob is small so it's harder to turn than it should be.


 
   
Here you go. Although Im not too sure they have one in black, you may need to dig around to find one.
   
  Yeah it is a little hard to turn with the stock pot. It's far easier with this modded one.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





suryand said:


> Hi men, I would like to know if any of you have tested the Matrix with the Beyer DT770 Pro 80 ohm and the Denon D5000.
> Please can you give me your opinion?
> 
> Kind regards!


 
   
  The Matrix M Stage has enough power to drive either headphone.
   
  Other than that, the only comment I have is that I'm not crazy about using my DT880/600 Ohm with the Matrix M Stage.
  The sound is kinda bland with that combo.
  But the Matrix has more than enough output for those 600 Ohm 'phones.


----------



## Taowolf51

Quote: 





maxvla said:


> That's quite nice, can you link it again? I'd love to find one in black. Only complaint I have of the M-Stage is that the knob is small so it's harder to turn than it should be.


 
   
  You can find a black one here:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-30x22-Aluminum-Hi-Fi-CD-VOLUME-TONE-CONTROL-KNOB-B-/170712249526?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27bf3e34b6


----------



## bracko

Thanks!


----------



## Maxvla

Much appreciated.


----------



## Alexein Aner

Thanks.


----------



## Change is Good

I have also been looking for a black knob to replace the stock one. Will this one fit?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-30x22-Aluminum-Hi-Fi-CD-VOLUME-TONE-CONTROL-KNOB-B-/170712249526?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27bf3e34b6
   
  And how about opamp options. I am currently looking at an LM4562 and an LM49860. Good choices?
   
  Edit: Ignore the knob link... just saw the prior post lol. But I do need feedback on my opamp choices. Thanks!


----------



## Maxvla

Ordered a black knob and a LT1364. Might get the OPA627 Class A bias board later, but going to try the LT first.


----------



## Change is Good

Quote: 





maxvla said:


> Ordered a black knob and a LT1364. Might get the OPA627 Class A bias board later, but going to try the LT first.


 
  Please give impressions. I am on the fence on whether to purchase the LM4562, LM49860, OPA627, and now the one you just mentioned. I only want one because I am too lazy to be switching back n forth


----------



## LugBug1

I've tried the stock, the LM4562 and opa627 board. I noticed more of a difference with the 627 than the other two. It may seem to be a smidge brighter but I think it is because of the improved clarity. Its also smoother. The LM4562 is a little warmer but perhaps a little more edgy in the treble. Both are an improvement over stock.
Pinch of salt required because the differences are very subtle.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





change is good said:


> And how about opamp options. I am currently looking at an LM4562 and an LM49860. Good choices?
> 
> Edit: Ignore the knob link... just saw the prior post lol. But I do need feedback on my opamp choices. Thanks!


 
   
  Big fan of LM4562.
  I prefer this to the stock Op Amp and the various OPA627s.
  I thought the OPA627 (Class A and non-Class A) was slightly muddier than the LM4562.
   
  I like the clarity of the LM4562.
   
  I'm happy with the size of my knob.


----------



## LugBug1

Quote: 





chris j said:


> I'm happy with the size of my knob.


 
  Exactly. Size isn't everything.. As long as it does the job.


----------



## bracko

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Big fan of LM4562.


 
   
  +1


----------



## Change is Good

LM4562 and a black knob it will be, then!!!


----------



## Taowolf51

Quote: 





maxvla said:


> Ordered a black knob and a LT1364. Might get the OPA627 Class A bias board later, but going to try the LT first.


 
   
  Good stuff, be sure to take a pic or two of the knob on the M-Stage!


----------



## LugBug1

I'm thinking about starting a knob appreciation thread


----------



## beaver316

You could probably find such a thread with a Google search


----------



## Change is Good

I went ahead and ordered the LM4562 and a black knob, also... pretty stoked


----------



## Chris J

lugbug1 said:


> Exactly. Size isn't everything.. As long as it does the job.




I'm sure everyone understands that we are only talking about the M Stage, right?


----------



## LugBug1

Oooo the M-stage. *cough* yes yes thats right.


----------



## Chris J

Yes!
   
  So feel free to post a picture of your knob!
   
  Anyway....what were we talking about?
  Oh yeah, Mr Change is Good, let us know how the LM4562 works out for you!


----------



## cans4dessert

Does anyone know the capacitance of the two red WIMA caps along the input? (those ones on either side of the blue box caps)
  Are these there to remove high frequency noise?


----------



## Chris J

cans4dessert said:


> Does anyone know the capacitance of the two red WIMA caps along the input? (those ones on either side of the blue box caps)
> Are these there to remove high frequency noise?




Hard to tell from your description where they are actually located, but I think you are referring to the caps in parallel with the input coupling caps, if I sound confused it's because my amp only has the big blue caps.

If they are, then they are for DC coupling and block very low frequency signals and do not filter out high frequency noise.


----------



## cans4dessert

Oh I thought I read somewhere that the big box blue caps were the ones that block out low frquency signals. I guess I remembered it wrong. 
So is it safe to just get rid of the red WIMAs that lay in parallel to those blue box caps?


----------



## Chris J

cans4dessert said:


> Oh I thought I read somewhere that the big box blue caps were the ones that block out low frquency signals. I guess I remembered it wrong.
> So is it safe to just get rid of the red WIMAs that lay in parallel to those blue box caps?




If they are the input coupling caps you can delete the little red ones and the big blue ones if your source has zero DC offset.


----------



## cans4dessert

Thanks for your help Chris. 
If i am too chicken to get rid of those input coupling caps and want to instead replace them with better caps, can i just get rid of the red WIMAs only (while upgrading the blue box caps)?


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





cans4dessert said:


> Thanks for your help Chris.
> If i am too chicken to get rid of those input coupling caps and want to instead replace them with better caps, can i just get rid of the red WIMAs only (while upgrading the blue box caps)?


 
  Yes you can delete the little red caps.
  I removed the big blue caps, it made very little difference, maybe none at all!
  But worth trying out, good luck!


----------



## Anvil

Does anyone know if there have been any instances of possibly fake or counterfeit M-Stages? Thinking of bidding on this listing here, but it doesn't seem like the seller has sold any amps before so I'm a bit leery of doing it.


----------



## hifimanrookie

anvil said:


> Does anyone know if there have been any instances of possibly fake or counterfeit M-Stages? Thinking of bidding on this listing here, but it doesn't seem like the seller has sold any amps before so I'm a bit leery of doing it.



Just order from the wellknown matrix sellers and ur fine.


----------



## rawrster

I got the amp today except it was delivered to work and I can't do anything except look at it for now.


----------



## LugBug1

Quote: 





rawrster said:


> I got the amp today except it was delivered to work and I can't do anything except look at it for now.


 
  Be sure to post impressions  Especially with the HD800's and K702 65's.


----------



## rawrster

So since everything I own is balanced I had to look for my adapter to SE and that took some time to find. Of course right as I get home my dad decides he wants to use the lawn mower which makes too much noise even with the windows closed so I'm out of luck until later. I did get a class A adapter with OPA637 which I'll try down the line.


----------



## Chris J

anvil said:


> Does anyone know if there have been any instances of possibly fake or counterfeit M-Stages? Thinking of bidding on this listing here, but it doesn't seem like the seller has sold any amps before so I'm a bit leery of doing it.




Well...............the M Stage is actually a fake Lehmann Black Cube.
So you are asking if this is a real fake, or a fake fake.

Hey, just sayin'


----------



## rawrster

Has anyone ever compared these to the Lehmann BCL and the lovely cube DIY amp?
   
   
  Also I can see why people recently have been talking about different knobs. I might get a different one as well.


----------



## elwappo99

Quote: 





rawrster said:


> Has anyone ever compared these to the Lehmann BCL and the lovely cube DIY amp?
> 
> 
> Also I can see why people recently have been talking about different knobs. I might get a different one as well.


 
   
  That knob is a little tiny guy. Sometimes I can't just blindly reach over to adjust the volume, the darn thing is so small. I have to look over to find the darn thing! I'll probably swap the knob. 
   
  I'm interested to see your thoughts on this little guy. As preproman says:


----------



## rawrster

It is a strange knob but that's probably due to the lack of space since the amp is more of a rectangular shape in the opposite way than most amps. Usually amps have the long side having all the inputs, outputs, knobs, etc but this amp has the shorter side with all of that. 
   
  Also it seems like this amp has hex keys to keep everything together (like most amps I've owned) and for the life of me I have no  idea where they are so it's gonna be a while until I can put the OPA637 with the bias to class A adapter. I have it hooked up with my D18 amp and color matches pretty well although size not so much. I would have liked to stack it on top but it goes next to it instead. 
   
  The HD800 sounds much smoother with this amp than the Mjolnir although there's a bit of a smear. It's like there's a very thing cloth covering over the music. I'll see in a few days. There's a huge thunderstorm tonight and I've been paranoid since one fried the mobo on my desktop many years ago so everything is off for tonight.


----------



## Maxvla

Agreed on the smear. It's not bad, but it's there.


----------



## elwappo99

Quote: 





rawrster said:


> It is a strange knob but that's probably due to the lack of space since the amp is more of a rectangular shape in the opposite way than most amps. Usually amps have the long side having all the inputs, outputs, knobs, etc but this amp has the shorter side with all of that.
> 
> Also it seems like this amp has hex keys to keep everything together (like most amps I've owned) and for the life of me I have no  idea where they are so it's gonna be a while until I can put the OPA637 with the bias to class A adapter. I have it hooked up with my D18 amp and color matches pretty well although size not so much. I would have liked to stack it on top but it goes next to it instead.
> 
> The HD800 sounds much smoother with this amp than the Mjolnir although there's a bit of a smear. It's like there's a very thing cloth covering over the music. I'll see in a few days. There's a huge thunderstorm tonight and I've been paranoid since one fried the mobo on my desktop many years ago so everything is off for tonight.


 
   
   
  Gah, I was thinking about getting your exact set-up for amps (balanced SS monster and M-stage) and then getting the hell out of this place with my wallet. Mjolnir is definitely on the top of the balanced SS list, but I'm also really considering the balanced CKIII that preproman is selling. 
   
  I definitely know what you mean with the lack of clarity. Mine is doing really well now with an Audio-GD moon. Although, it is a pretty dark sound, it still stays somewhat smooth. 
   
   
  Is it a good yin/yang?


----------



## rawrster

My D18 is on the warmer side but I wouldn't call it dark and it sounds fine. The main concern with the Mjolnir is as long as your dac is good then it should be fine. The Mjolnir while it does tip towards the more aggressive side reveals what is lacking in the dac if you have the proper headphones of course. However judging from your headphones they probably are good enough although my preference for the HE6 would not be the Mjolnir but the pair does sound quite good.
   
  Also that balanced amp he has selling is interesting. Not many of those amps come up and definitely not balanced. I never got a hold of them but don't really need one now. The only amp I can think of I would buy right now is if a GS-X made it to the FS. One came up a few weeks ago and don't think that's happening again for a very long time.


----------



## elwappo99

Quote: 





rawrster said:


> My D18 is on the warmer side but I wouldn't call it dark and it sounds fine. The main concern with the Mjolnir is as long as your dac is good then it should be fine. The Mjolnir while it does tip towards the more aggressive side reveals what is lacking in the dac if you have the proper headphones of course. However judging from your headphones they probably are good enough although my preference for the HE6 would not be the Mjolnir but the pair does sound quite good.
> 
> Also that balanced amp he has selling is interesting. Not many of those amps come up and definitely not balanced. I never got a hold of them but don't really need one now. The only amp I can think of I would buy right now is if a GS-X made it to the FS. One came up a few weeks ago and don't think that's happening again for a very long time.


 
   
  I was very impressed with the Mjolnir when I heard it because of that aggressive sound. The detail retrieval was just so refined, and the sound decay was really impressive. Of course I only got to hear it at a meet when it was being first debuted so there was a line and I didn't want to take too much time. Does it do OK with so-so (e.g. mainstream) recordings? One problem I have with the HE-6 is that it's hard to just hit shuffle and listen. Those headphones just rip apart anything that isn't well recorded. 
   
  I've been trying to scrap around and find any information on that darned unit with very little to no luck. All the comments are for SE, and from 2008 or so.
   
   
  Keeping things relevant to the Matrix. A concern I have with the Mjolnir is that some people now talk about the "three blob" sound stage. I think the Matrix has a good "music upfront and dissipates to the side" type sound. Any comparison on the sound stage? Not to be too demanding   Just any thoughts you have when you have some time.


----------



## rawrster

Quote: 





elwappo99 said:


> I was very impressed with the Mjolnir when I heard it because of that aggressive sound. The detail retrieval was just so refined, and the sound decay was really impressive. Of course I only got to hear it at a meet when it was being first debuted so there was a line and I didn't want to take too much time. Does it do OK with so-so (e.g. mainstream) recordings? One problem I have with the HE-6 is that it's hard to just hit shuffle and listen. Those headphones just rip apart anything that isn't well recorded.
> 
> I've been trying to scrap around and find any information on that darned unit with very little to no luck. All the comments are for SE, and from 2008 or so.
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  The HE6 and HD800 have similar detail but the HD800 might have slight edge but hard to tell. It's a bit more obvious with the HD800 but they both like good quality over poor quality files or recordings. I do have a good amount of mainstream albums and I don't really have a big issue with the HE6 or HD800. They could be better but not to the point where they are unlistenable. Also imo the Mjolnir is a very good amp. I can be perfectly happy with the HD800 or HE6 on the Mjolnir although the HE6 does better on speaker amps.
   
  I am not really big on sound stage but I haven't really heard any headphone that doesn't have mostly left or right. That is part of the limitations to headphones imo regardless of amp.


----------



## Change is Good

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Oh yeah, Mr Change is Good, let us know how the LM4562 works out for you!


 
   
  I am very happy with it. The difference is noticeable, though I am not good at describing sound. Let's just say it's an upgrade. Thanks for the info, my man...


----------



## Change is Good

Has anyone tried the LME49710?
   
http://www.ebay.com/itm/251019575649


----------



## lawrywild

Quote: 





change is good said:


> Has anyone tried the LME49710?
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/251019575649


 

 LME49710 is a single channel version of LME49720 which is the same opamp as the LM4562 with a different model number stuck on it.
   
  They are available in TO-99 metal cans though (which the lm4562 are not), which are said to be better than the DIP or SOIC ones (solder them to an adapter).


----------



## Change is Good

Thanks! I'm a noob so please forgive my dumb questions.

Also, when I opened mine I noticed two stock opamps in different locations. Am I supposed to switch both? I only purchased one LM4562 not knowing there were two and only switched the one closest to the knob (which is line 1 i think). 

I have the new USB vesrion, btw.


----------



## Chris J

lawrywild said:


> LME49710 is a single channel version of LME49720 which is the same opamp as the LM4562 with a different model number stuck on it.
> 
> They are available in TO-99 metal cans though (which the lm4562 are not), which are said to be better than the DIP or SOIC ones (solder them to an adapter).




I suspect it sounds the same as the LM4562.
Placebo can be a powerful force.


----------



## dogwan

Quote: 





lawrywild said:


> LME49710 is a single channel version of LME49720 which is the same opamp as the LM4562 with a different model number stuck on it.
> 
> They are available in TO-99 metal cans though (which the lm4562 are not), which are said to be better than the DIP or SOIC ones (solder them to an adapter).


 
   
   
  Quote: 





change is good said:


> Has anyone tried the LME49710?
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/251019575649


 
   
  I have the LME49720HA in the TO-99 on an adapter currently in mine and love it. To my ears it is a lot smoother than the OPA627 class A biased (which I find a touch too "hot" and slightly grainy). I am not the best at describing differences, but I felt it made the sound a bit more "tube like" without adding noise or loose bass. I would say "SMOOTH" with tight bass and good highs.
   
  Not sure if it's an issue with these, but I bought from a known seller in the US. I would be careful of conterfeits.


----------



## Change is Good

Quote: 





change is good said:


> Also, when I opened mine I noticed two stock opamps in different locations. Am I supposed to switch both? I only purchased one LM4562 not knowing there were two and only switched the one closest to the knob (which is line 1 i think).
> 
> I have the new USB vesrion, btw.


 
   
  Someone please answer this for me. I am new to this and would like to know


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





change is good said:


> Someone please answer this for me. I am new to this and would like to know


 
   
  I have an older M Stage, but the Op Amp for the headphone amp is close to the front of the amp. There are two large blue capacitors slightly behind it.
  They look like blue plastic boxes.
   
  I assume you don't use the USB input?


----------



## Change is Good

Quote: 





chris j said:


> I have an older M Stage, but the Op Amp for the headphone amp is close to the front of the amp. There are two large blue capacitors slightly behind it.
> They look like blue plastic boxes.
> 
> I assume you don't use the USB input?


 
   
  Thank you for the response, Chris
   
  I researched enough to know that was the one I was supposed to change, and I did so. There was another stock OPA 2134 opamp that I noticed, however, across from it diagonally on the other side. I am assuming that is the opamp for the USB?
   
  I do use the USB for its DAC... but only on certain occasions.


----------



## Chris J

change is good said:


> Thank you for the response, Chris
> 
> I researched enough to know that was the one I was supposed to change, and I did so. There was another stock OPA 2134 opamp that I noticed, however, across from it diagonally on the other side. I am assuming that is the opamp for the USB?
> 
> I do use the USB for its DAC... but only on certain occasions.




Mine does't have USB, so I suspect the other Op Amp must be part of the USB DAC circuit.


----------



## cans4dessert

I remember someone mentioned that the 470uF capacitors in the matrix are overkill. So is  it okay, if i were to replace the two electrolytics on either side of the opamp (the one behind the volume knob), to use 330uF ones? I wanna try the Elna Silmic II but it seems that 330uF ones will fit easily whereas their 470uF ones might be too large to fit...
  Also, what does the red WIMAs between those two electrolytics do? I read somewhere those are 0.022uF ones.. but mine says 0.15uF...


----------



## DaemonSire

Quote: 





lcmusiclover said:


> If you dig back about 5 pages, you'll see that I had the same experience using 1964Ears V.3s with this amp -- low hum when no music is playing, and during very quiet passages. It doesn't matter what gain the amp is set for, or what level the volume knob is set to -- hum is always the same.
> 
> It appears to be a feature of this amp. I picked an Op627, which didn't help.  Seems to be always there , but only noticeable with very sensitive phones (my 1964Ears are 117db/mW). Just loud enough to be annoying.
> 
> I ended up getting a RSA Shadow, which I love.


 
   
  Thanks for the replies LCMusicLover, hifimanrookie and Chris J.  I knew I had read about someone else having the same experience but couldn't remember how many pages back it was.
   
  Nice to know I'm not crazy and especially that there isn't an issue with the amp.
   
  As I said, it isn't noticeable with my open phones, just the closed ones.  Guess it is more designed for those.  Not really an issue since you can only hear it when nothing is playing.


----------



## Change is Good

I finally got my black knob in the mail, today.


----------



## elwappo99

Quote: 





change is good said:


> I finally got my black knob in the mail, today.


 
   
   
  Looks good! I mean, the knob not the picture quality. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  I think that is a much better looking unit overall than the tiny little guy. No troubles with the install?


----------



## Change is Good

Quote: 





elwappo99 said:


> Looks good! I mean, the knob not the picture quality.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Yea, I'm using my phone lol
   
  No trouble to install at all. Just remove the little screw on the original with a hex key... remove old knob... line up the new knob appropriately along with the screw it comes with... and screw on with a small flathead.
   
  You do have to paint the small circle, however, because the indentation comes unpainted.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





daemonsire said:


> Thanks for the replies LCMusicLover, hifimanrookie and Chris J.  I knew I had read about someone else having the same experience but couldn't remember how many pages back it was.
> 
> Nice to know I'm not crazy and especially that there isn't an issue with the amp.


 
   
  Actually, I do think your crazy!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Hey, I kid! I kid!


----------



## GaToMaLaCo

Quote: 





change is good said:


> You do have to paint the small circle, however, because the indentation comes unpainted.


 
  Same here


----------



## Maxvla

Got my opamp today, but knob is still MIA.


----------



## Change is Good

Quote: 





maxvla said:


> Got my opamp today, but knob is still MIA.


 
   
  Yea my opamp arrived rather quickly, too. I can say it took approximately 10 business days for my knob to arrive.
   
  It is coming all the way from China, you know


----------



## beaver316

Quote: 





change is good said:


> Yea my opamp arrived rather quickly, too. I can say it took approximately 10 business days for my knob to arrive.
> 
> It is coming all the way from China, you know


 
   
  It took mine closer to 30 days to arrive, but it was worth it, love the knob.


----------



## KimChee

Got my Matrix M stage about a day ago, I've left it on, see if it opens up.  I like what I hear so far detail and transparency are better than anything I've owned so far (desktop amp newbie), but for the price I think I like it better than my 3G Arrow so far.  I got the black knob too, hope it comes faster than 10 days...


----------



## Maxvla

How are you guys getting the stock knob off? I tried my 1.4mm and 2mm allen wrenches, the 1.4 is too small, the 2, too big, and these are the 2 smallest of my allen wrench set.


----------



## Taowolf51

Have you tried an allen wrench set with imperial units?


----------



## Maxvla

I don't have one. I assumed it would be metric being a Chinese product. The ones on the face plate are 2mm. Guess I'll head to the store tomorrow and see what I can find.


----------



## cans4dessert

I've noticed Muses opamps have been getting some attention with other amps. Has anyone tried any one of the Muses8820, 8920, 01 or 02 with the m-stage?


----------



## LugBug1

Went back to the LM4562 opamp instead of the opa627 bias adaptor. Sounds good.
   
  Why use two opamps when one can do the job...  If the amp was dual mono then it would make more sense. 
   
  The opa627 are the best opamps I've heard (used them in other amps, including my Audio gd) but they're not going to be optimized using them in such a configuration as in the dual adapter for the m-stage. Your just paying for the hype of 'opa627' when buying the class A mod. And as far as I've read up on this modification, you may well be stressing the amp by using it.
   
  Its hard to a/b when changing opamps but I do think the LM4562 is the better sounding option after trying it twice now. 
   
  imo


----------



## Change is Good

Quote: 





maxvla said:


> How are you guys getting the stock knob off? I tried my 1.4mm and 2mm allen wrenches, the 1.4 is too small, the 2, too big, and these are the 2 smallest of my allen wrench set.


 
  It needs a 1.5
http://www.amazon.com/Wiha-35392-5-piece-Metric-Molded/dp/B001ATKWJY/ref=sr_1_18?ie=UTF8&qid=1366417682&sr=8-18&keywords=hex+key


----------



## rawrster

I changed the opamp to the OPA627 with the Class A mod. It's hard to tell if there's a change or not without having a stock M-Stage next to it to compare.


----------



## cans4dessert

i found that changing caps on the amp brought about more noticeable change than opamp rolling, as other members mentioned. My amp now lies more on the neutral side (relatively) and responds more readily to different sources..
   
  Aside, I am really interested in those Japanese Muses opamps and curious to see how they differ from opa627s. I like my class A biased 627s but I'm always looking out for new things.


----------



## dogwan

Quote: 





cans4dessert said:


> i found that changing caps on the amp brought about more noticeable change than opamp rolling, as other members mentioned. My amp now lies more on the neutral side (relatively) and responds more readily to different sources..
> 
> Aside, I am really interested in those Japanese Muses opamps and curious to see how they differ from opa627s. I like my class A biased 627s but I'm always looking out for new things.


 
   
  YES! 
   
  I replaced all the WIMA's and thought it a significant improvement. Never liked WIMA's.
   
  Also replaced metal film resistors in signal path with Carbon Films.


----------



## Chris J

I removed the input coupling caps.

Anybody try any more cap mods in the M Stage?


----------



## cans4dessert

I replaced all the electrolytics except the 4700uF ones plus swapped the input caps with different ones (okay..i was too chicken).
  I replaced them all at the same time so I cannot tell which cap replacement contributed most to the change...
  4 x Elna Cerafines near the heatsinks and 2 x Silmic IIs near the opamp.
  2 x Axon True caps at the input.
   
  There were two more capacitors I replaced at that time (used Vishay MKP 1837 0.022uF) in place of the two red WIMAs behind the opamp but I put the WIMAs back in after listening... it just sounded way too cold for me. Maybe it's because they are 0.022uF only. The WIMAs are 0.15uF. I thought 0.022uF should be sufficient as, from what I saw, the Lovely Cube uses 0.022uF caps there...
  Maybe I did something wrong and putting the WIMAs back in fixed it. Who knows =P
   
  Anyhow, I am very happy with what I have now.


----------



## kellte2

While I've spent a good deal of time researching this issue on this thread prior to asking my question, I haven't come to a clear answer.  Please excuse the newbie question.
   
  i'm in the market for an amp upgrade [coming from the E09k] to go along with my new K702 65th headphones and I have recently had the opportunity to purchase one of several used M-Stage amps.  They're comparably priced and one model is a pre-2012 version (purchased in Jan-11) with the Burr/Brown OPA627AP installed by TAM Audio.  The other is a stock 2012 version with the openings on the sides. 
   
  From what I've gathered on this thread, some of the internal components were changed out on the 2012 version and the original version of the amp is warmer when compared to the 2012 version.  Are there any other differences between the two?
   
  I'm also in a haze about OPA rolling. I understand that changing out this part can alter the sound signature, but to what degree is really a subjective determination [again, from what I'm reading here].  Would the OPA627AP be good for the K702 65th sound signature?
   
  Feel free to correct me if I've misstated anything above, but any help would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





kellte2 said:


> While I've spent a good deal of time researching this issue on this thread prior to asking my question, I haven't come to a clear answer.  Please excuse the newbie question.
> 
> i'm in the market for an amp upgrade [coming from the E09k] to go along with my new K702 65th headphones and I have recently had the opportunity to purchase one of several used M-Stage amps.  They're comparably priced and one model is a pre-2012 version (purchased in Jan-11) with the Burr/Brown OPA627AP installed by TAM Audio.  The other is a stock 2012 version with the openings on the sides.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Hi,
  The old version will sound no different than the new version.
  We had made a few jokes that the old version was "warmer" because it did not have vents!
  The new version was "airier" because it was vented!
  But that was just a bunch of bad jokes we were exchanging!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  The only difference that I can see is the addition of the DAC which will not affect the sound of the amp.
  Rolling different Op Amps does not change the sound of the amp too much.
  I've tried a few and have settled on the LM4562............YMMV!
  I would also add that their is not much difference in sound between the M Stage and the FiiO E09K.
  I own both and when I used my Q701 I hear very little difference in sound.
   
  In other words, I wouldn't bother upgrading from an 09K to an M Stage.  You'll probably get more bang for your buck by upgrading your DAC!  I don't know what you use for a DAC.
   
  Chris
  AKA
  Xris (kind of gives me a rakish look!)


----------



## Change is Good

Quote: 





chris j said:


> I would also add that their is not much difference in sound between the M Stage and the FiiO E09K.
> I own both and when I used my Q701 I hear very little difference in sound.
> 
> In other words, I wouldn't bother upgrading from an 09K to an M Stage.  You'll probably get more bang for your buck by upgrading your DAC!  I don't know what you use for a DAC.


 
  I can vouch for this. I "upgraded" to the M-Stage from an E9k and only noticed a slight difference, sound wise. The M-Stage is a just bit warmer (if that). The only real difference, really, is the the ability to drive my Q701 with more power. That's about it.
   
  And yes, they definitely can get more bang for the buck with an upgraded DAC. I have the M-Stage DAC version and the DAC, itself, is decent at best. I have a Music Streamer II, myself. The price is decent and the performance is priceless. I prefer the MSII with the E12, though. The E12 has a much darker sound (which I kind of like) and pairs up better with it than the E9k and M-Stage, oddly.


----------



## chicolom

I would like to compare the E9 and M-Stage, but I wouldn't be surprised if they sounded similar (with the M-stage being slightly warmer perhaps). 
   
  I sold my E9 before I got my M-Stage so I didn't get a chance to compare them directly.  I liked the E9 while I had it though.
   
  I think the E9 and M-stage are probably too close to consider it noticeable upgrade.  You probably need to jump to pricier amps to get that.
   
   
  One thing I noticed is that when I double-amp with my Astro mixamp -> Mstage, it seems like the M-stage slightly boosts the soundstage space over just the mixamp alone.  I remember trying this several times with the the E9 as well and coming to the conclusion that I couldn't hear any benefits from double-amping with Mixamp -> E9.


----------



## Change is Good

Quote: 





chicolom said:


> One thing I noticed is that when I double-amp with my Astro mixamp -> Mstage, it seems like the M-stage slightly boosts the soundstage space over just the mixamp alone.  I remember trying this several times with the the E9 as well and coming to the conclusion that I couldn't hear any benefits from double-amping with Mixamp -> E9.


 
   
  +1
   
  I agree what you say about the M-Stage enhancing the soundstage. I noticed this with when I had the Recon3D.


----------



## kellte2

Thank you to all that weighed in. After reading all these responses, I suppose I'm better off saving money and upgrading to a higher end amp/dac down the road. I currently do a fair amount of gaming with the mixamp as one source but my d3k could use the upgrade for music sometime in the future.


----------



## Chris J

kellte2 said:


> Thank you to all that weighed in. After reading all these responses, I suppose I'm better off saving money and upgrading to a higher end amp/dac down the road. I currently do a fair amount of gaming with the mixamp as one source but my d3k could use the upgrade for music sometime in the future.




I think you should be able to roll Op Amps in the E09K.

Anybody ever try that?


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





chris j said:


> I think you should be able to roll Op Amps in the E09K.
> 
> Anybody ever try that?


 
   
  I know some people have done it before...


----------



## Chris J

chicolom said:


> I know some people have done it before...




And???


----------



## kellte2

Quote: 





chris j said:


> And???


 
post #59
   
   
 Quote: 





zombie_x said:


> I have to disagree. The E9 amp is greatly overhyped for what it is and IMO sucks for amping anything above 32Ohms. I have a K701 on hand and it does a pretty terrible job with it. Everything sounds squashed and the soundstage is much smaller.


 
 
 Its the OPA2134 that does that That's why I changed the OPA2134 out of my Fiio E9 when I figure out which Screw driver I needed to open it up.I had the AKG 702 my self, it drove it greatly.  The OPA2134 was what ruined the fun even when it was plugged thou the RCA output of my X-FI HD that had 2xLME49720NA and 2x LME49710NA's in the line. After I changed that trashy OPA2134 to a LT1364CN8 then every thing was much better. The sound stage was better as well the over all sound.  I don't know why they decided to use that POS OPA2134 any way. Yes the Fiio E9 has machine Dip-8 sockets and a Torx T5 is what you need to open it up and change it. The opamp for the headphone jacks is directly behind the 6.3mm jack in the front. Since Then I been rolling opamps with my Fiio E9.
  
 I also used High gain with the Fiio E9 with my AKG 702s and not Low gain.


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





chris j said:


> And???


 
   
  ...It exploded!!


----------



## bracko

Quote: 





change is good said:


> I finally got my black knob in the mail, today.


 
   
  I also got my new knob today. The problem is there is a quite noticable gap between the panel and the knob. How did you do to eliminate that?


----------



## beaver316

Quote: 





bracko said:


> I also got my new knob today. The problem is there is a quite noticable gap between the panel and the knob. How did you do to eliminate that?


 
   
  Mine has a gap too, similar to that quoted picture. I don't think you can eliminate it without drilling the hole in the knob deeper.
   
  Imo the gap looks sleek especially with the silver m-stage, it looks like there's a black ring at the base rather than a gap. Suits the color scheme imo


----------



## bracko

Quote: 





beaver316 said:


> Mine has a gap too, similar to that quoted picture. I don't think you can eliminate it without drilling the hole in the knob deeper.
> 
> Imo the gap looks sleek especially with the silver m-stage, it looks like there's a black ring at the base rather than a gap. Suits the color scheme imo


 
   
  Seen from a side the gap looks like this:
   
   

   
  Is it similar to yours? (Sorry for a bad quality pic)


----------



## beaver316

On mine, the gap at the top is near non-existent, but the bottom is quite big. Not really noticeable since I look at the amp from the top, not bottom. But yeah it looks similar to yours.


----------



## LugBug1

I have a good 7 inch gap between my knob and its base. Never had any complaints. 
   
   
(sorry)


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





lugbug1 said:


> I have a good 7 inch gap between my knob and its base. Never had any complaints.
> 
> 
> (sorry)


 
   
  Someone had to say it!


----------



## Ralf Hutter

I have one of these unribbed black Goldpoint knobs on my M-Stage:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/GOLDPOINT-1-1-ALUMINUM-KNOB-/190497034609?pt=US_Home_Audio_Amplifiers_Preamps&hash=item2c5a821171

It slides all the way back so the flange is flush with the faceplate of the amp. It looks like it was designed for the M-Stage.


----------



## chicolom

Those are some big knobs!
   
  My knob might not be as big, but it still feels good in the hand.  Sometimes it can be a little slippery to handle though.
   
  :x


----------



## bracko

Quote: 





beaver316 said:


> On mine, the gap at the top is near non-existent, but the bottom is quite big. Not really noticeable since I look at the amp from the top, not bottom. But yeah it looks similar to yours.


 
   
  I guess that cutting the top of the shaft could solve the problem.


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





ralf hutter said:


> I have one of these unribbed black Goldpoint knobs on my M-Stage:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/GOLDPOINT-1-1-ALUMINUM-KNOB-/190497034609?pt=US_Home_Audio_Amplifiers_Preamps&hash=item2c5a821171
> 
> It slides all the way back so the flange is flush with the faceplate of the amp. It looks like it was designed for the M-Stage.


 

 Those seem nice, but $17 for a knob seems a little pricey :\


----------



## LugBug1

Quote: 





chicolom said:


> Those seem nice, but $17 for a knob seems a little pricey :\


 
  ah, but you can't put a price on a good knob! Having said that I'm happy with my stock one. As long as you keep it clean and don't let any old dick or harry play with it, it should give you years of pleasure.


----------



## beaver316

Quote: 





lugbug1 said:


> ah, but you can't put a price on a good knob! Having said that I'm happy with my stock one. As long as you keep it clean and don't let any old dick or harry play with it, it should give you years of pleasure.


 
   
  You must really love your knob lugbug, you seem to talk about it a lot


----------



## LugBug1

Quote: 





beaver316 said:


> You must really love your knob lugbug, you seem to talk about it a lot


 
  Oh yes


----------



## fuzzybaffy

Oh my... I always thought the idea that a headphone's sound would change by adjusting the gain on the amp was balony, but... just now I was feeling a little dissatisfied with my HD-650's bass output, and when I realized the gain was at the 10db level, I kicked it up a couple of notches to the 20db level, and the bass all of a sudden opened up. 
   
  Am I imagining things? I must admit I'm adjusting the volume by hand to level the volumes when comparing different gain levels. But the difference definitely seems there (and that's why I'm asking here just to confirm!). 
   
  It's not like the bass got an immediate bump, as if I was EQing them, but, the bass just seems little more forward, and seems like a more "there". Does anyone share similar experiences? Observations?


----------



## KimChee

Got my knob in today...does a lot for the aesthetics I got 2 for like $4.43..


----------



## bracko

I cut 1 mm off the potentiometer shaft and installed the knob anew. Now there is no gap whatsoever and the amp looks much nicer.


----------



## fuzzybaffy

People don't have to answer. That's fine.


----------



## bracko

fuzzybaffy said:


> Oh my... I always thought the idea that a headphone's sound would change by adjusting the gain on the amp was balony, but... just now I was feeling a little dissatisfied with my HD-650's bass output, and when I realized the gain was at the 10db level, I kicked it up a couple of notches to the 20db level, and the bass all of a sudden opened up.
> 
> Am I imagining things? I must admit I'm adjusting the volume by hand to level the volumes when comparing different gain levels. But the difference definitely seems there (and that's why I'm asking here just to confirm!).
> 
> It's not like the bass got an immediate bump, as if I was EQing them, but, the bass just seems little more forward, and seems like a more "there". Does anyone share similar experiences? Observations?




Maybe it is the distortion in the bass region fooling your ears?


----------



## fuzzybaffy

It may be!


----------



## KimChee

Isn't the 650 pretty power hungry?  Maybe it wasn't getting enough til you upped the gain..


----------



## KimChee

I just went downstairs and dremeled off the very end..it does look much better now thanks for the idea



bracko said:


> I cut 1 mm off the potentiometer shaft and installed the knob anew. Now there is no gap whatsoever and the amp looks much nicer.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





fuzzybaffy said:


> Oh my... I always thought the idea that a headphone's sound would change by adjusting the gain on the amp was balony, but... just now I was feeling a little dissatisfied with my HD-650's bass output, and when I realized the gain was at the 10db level, I kicked it up a couple of notches to the 20db level, and the bass all of a sudden opened up.
> 
> Am I imagining things? I must admit I'm adjusting the volume by hand to level the volumes when comparing different gain levels. But the difference definitely seems there (and that's why I'm asking here just to confirm!).
> 
> It's not like the bass got an immediate bump, as if I was EQing them, but, the bass just seems little more forward, and seems like a more "there". Does anyone share similar experiences? Observations?


 
   
  Well..................I actually don't like the sound of the 20 dB setting. But I'm OK with 18, 10 and 0 dB settings. If I adjust for volume, I really can't hear the difference between 18, 10 and 0 dB. But something about 20 dB of gain in the M Stage doesn't sound right to me.
  BTW, changing the gain from 0 to 10 to 20 dB doesn't increase the maximum output power available from the M Stage. I only use 18 dB with my 600 Ohm headphones because I run out of volume control travel on the 10 dB setting with quiet recordings.
  Quote: 





kimchee said:


> Got my knob in today...


 
   
  I won't even touch this one!


----------



## Change is Good

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Well..................I actually don't like the sound of the 20 dB setting. But I'm OK with 18, 10 and 0 dB settings.


 
   
  I agree. For me, personally, I prefer 18dB for my Q701 and have kept it there since day one.


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





chris j said:


> I won't even touch this one!


 
    
  What about this one? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Quote:


kimchee said:


> I just went downstairs and dremeled off the very end...


----------



## LugBug1

Quote: 





bracko said:


> shaft and install the knob anew. Now there is no gap whatsoever


 




  Quote: 





chris j said:


> I won't even touch this one!


 
  At least not with surgical gloves on


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





chicolom said:


>


 
   
  Ouch!


----------



## KimChee

Finally got my OPA2227P in, now to let it run for a bit...then no more mods..I got a spare opa2227p and volume pot..anyone interested?


----------



## rawrster

I would be interested in the volume pot. I don't really know much about the opamp however.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





kimchee said:


> Finally got my OPA2227P in, now to let it run for a bit...then no more mods..I got a spare opa2227p and volume pot..anyone interested?


 
   
  I think you mean a spare volume knob?


----------



## KimChee

Yep


----------



## KimChee

Yep


----------



## Guess?

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Well..................I actually don't like the sound of the 20 dB setting. But I'm OK with 18, 10 and 0 dB settings. If I adjust for volume, I really can't hear the difference between 18, 10 and 0 dB. But something about 20 dB of gain in the M Stage doesn't sound right to me.
> BTW, changing the gain from 0 to 10 to 20 dB doesn't increase the maximum output power available from the M Stage. I only use 18 dB with my 600 Ohm headphones because I run out of volume control travel on the 10 dB setting with quiet recordings.
> 
> I won't even touch this one!


 
   
  Quote: 





change is good said:


> I agree. For me, personally, I prefer 18dB for my Q701 and have kept it there since day one.


 

 I'm on +18db too, perfect for both the He-400 & K701, but they like different opamps, for K701 - OP627BP is a killer, sounds fantastic! For the He-400 I'm running LME49710NA, it's not as perfect match as the K701 & 627, but I don't have a better option right now.


----------



## spark3

Just ordered the OPA627AP from coolbaby11 on Ebay for my M Stage that I am using with my HE-500, I have heard good things about changing the op-amp so I thought I would try it out but what should I really expect to be improved compared to the stock op-amp with the HE-500?


----------



## bracko

Quote: 





spark3 said:


> Just ordered the OPA627AP from coolbaby11 on Ebay for my M Stage that I am using with my HE-500, I have heard good things about changing the op-amp so I thought I would try it out but what should I really expect to be improved compared to the stock op-amp with the HE-500?


 
  From my experience, rolling OP-amps only brings slight changes to the sound of M-Stage. Also, it is very hard to do any AB test if you don't have two M-Stage amps. The best you can do is to not expect anything so you may be positively surprised.


----------



## Guess?

Quote: 





spark3 said:


> Just ordered the OPA627AP from coolbaby11 on Ebay for my M Stage that I am using with my HE-500, I have heard good things about changing the op-amp so I thought I would try it out but what should I really expect to be improved compared to the stock op-amp with the HE-500?


 

 My He-400 works good with 2xLME49710NA and I use 2xOPA627BP for K701, the other way around sux.


----------



## LugBug1

[size=small]I've just stuck a pair of LT1028ACN8 in the M-stage. Really good, its defo helping to remove the slight veil and the sound seems to be more free. I've used this opamp before and it is very transparent and open sounding. [/size]


----------



## Chris J

OK, I couldn't stand it anymore, comparison time!
   
  I thought I would compare the mighty Matrix M Stage to the FiiO E09K headphone amp.
  disclaimer: my Matrix has an LM4562, input coupling caps are deleted, the E09K is bone stock.
  DAC was either a FiiO E17 used as a DAC or an iBasso D12 used as a DAC.
  Source was an iPod into a Wadia dock which outputs SPDIF to the DAC.
  Phones were AKG Q701.
  Levels were carefully matched using an SPL meter and pink noise.
   
  And the winner?
  The Matrix M Stage.
   
  The amps were very close, but the Matrix showed a bit more detail, a bit more texture, a little more space, a touch less midrange fog, a bit more transparency, a bit more microdynamics.  For example, strumming of an acoustic guitar was a touch more tactile. When I switched to the FiiO I always had the feeling that I had just lost a little clarity. Even though I had carefully level matched (and re-checked it!)  the Matrix sounded slightly louder, I can only guess this is due to the slight increase in transparency.
  Is the Matrix worth twice as much as the FiiO E09K?
  If you are a detail and texture freak, the answer would be yes. 
  But if you just want a good sounding amp without spending the money for a Matrix, get the E09K.
   
  Next comparo:
  Comparing the Matrix M to the headphone amp in the iBasso D12.


----------



## bracko

chris j said:


> OK, I couldn't sand it anymore, comparison time!
> 
> I thought I would compare the mighty Matrix M Stage to the FiiO E09K headphone amp.
> disclaimer: my Matrix has an LM4562, input coupling caps are deleted, the E09K is bone stock.
> ...




Thank yoo for the review. I guess this is the difference we can expect from any two amplifier designs.


----------



## Change is Good

Quote: 





chris j said:


> OK, I couldn't stand it anymore, comparison time!
> 
> I thought I would compare the mighty Matrix M Stage to the FiiO E09K headphone amp.
> disclaimer: my Matrix has an LM4562, input coupling caps are deleted, the E09K is bone stock.
> ...


 
   
  Yeah, I also say thanks. I had the E9k before getting the M-Stage but never was able to A/B them. I always wondered if I had made the right choice. Thank you for confirming that I did.


----------



## Chris J

Hey, thanks guys!

Comparing the Matrix M to the iBasso D12 is driving me crazy! 
More later.

Also, I want to compare my M Stage to my FiiO E12.


----------



## chicolom

How are you A-B comparing them? Do you have a switch or just swapping plugs around?


----------



## Chris J

chicolom said:


> How are you A-B comparing them? Do you have a switch or just swapping plugs around?




Driving both amps at the same time and plugging my headphones into alternating amps.

I'm not trying to be ultra scientific.
If they both sounded the same, I would just say "they both sound the same".
I'll leave the ultra scientific ABX DBT to the propellor heads in the Science Forum.


----------



## Change is Good

Quote: 





chicolom said:


> How are you A-B comparing them? Do you have a switch or just swapping plugs around?


 
   
  Didn't you mention in another forum of a Fiio product that will be releasing for things like this? What was it again???


----------



## chicolom

change is good said:


> Didn't you mention in another forum of a Fiio product that will be releasing for things like this? What was it again???


Yeah, the FiiO HS2. I've got one on the way


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Driving both amps at the same time and plugging my headphones into alternating amps.
> 
> I'm not trying to be ultra scientific.
> If they both sounded the same, I would just say "they both sound the same".
> I'll leave the ultra scientific ABX DBT to the propellor heads in the Science Forum.


 
   
  I asked because I just picked up a second headphone amp and I want to compare it to the M-Stage as well.  I was wondering if you used any techniques to make it easier to compare.




   
  My new amp is the iFi iCan.  I picked it up to test out its soundstage and bass enhancement features.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





chicolom said:


> I asked because I just picked up a second headphone amp and I want to compare it to the M-Stage as well.  I was wondering if you used any techniques to make it easier to compare.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  No problem, my earlier reply does look a bit bitchy, that wasn't my intention!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  I've heard great things about the iFi Can. I can guess where this comparison may go!
   
  My method was good old fashioned plugging headphones directly into different headphone amps, the hard way, but there is no switching getting in the way.  Matrix was driven by the Line Out on the E09K.
  The only part everyone may have "difficulty" duplicating is I used a pink noise source and a SPL meter to ensure both amps were outputting the same level.  Because everyone owns an SPL meter, right?  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  Seriously, I was shocked to see how loud 75-80 dB was! Maybe I just don't listen very loud......


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





chris j said:


> The only part everyone may have "difficulty" duplicating is I used a pink noise source and a SPL meter to ensure both amps were outputting the same level.  Because everyone owns an SPL meter, right?


 
   
  Hmm....I don't have an SPL meter, but I _do _have microphones, a laptop, and pink noise 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Perhaps I can MacGruber something together...


----------



## Chris J

chicolom said:


> Hmm....I don't have an SPL meter, but I _do_ have microphones, a laptop, and pink noise
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yeah, that should do it!


----------



## chicolom

I've been comparing the M-Stage to the iCan amp.
   
  For now I'm just switching my headphone plug back and forth (and with the volumes NOT perfectly matched 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) but it's hard to tell too much difference between them.  They both sound pretty good.
  I will need to wait for my FiiO HS2 to arrive (probably in 10 days or so) to do a proper comparison, at which point I will actually try and match the levels too.
   
  I do know that I'm _definitely _keeping the iCan though, because I love the bass boost and soundstage boosting switches and fine myself using them most of the time.  The only question is whether or not I'm going to keep the M-Stage around too.  I don't need two amps if they sound the same, and so far they seem to sound _close enough._..


----------



## kellte2

Quote: 





chicolom said:


> I've been comparing the M-Stage to the iCan amp.
> 
> For now I'm just switching my headphone plug back and forth (and with the volumes NOT perfectly matched
> 
> ...


 
   
  Quick question: the 3d soundstage boost, does that have an effect on the 'sound' of music the same way running music through a mixamp with Dolby Headphone turned on would?  In other words, does it sound artificial?


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





kellte2 said:


> Quick question: the 3d soundstage boost, does that have an effect on the 'sound' of music the same way running music through a mixamp with Dolby Headphone turned on would?  In other words, does it sound artificial?


 
   
   
  No, it's not artifical sounding and that's one of the best things about it.  It's surprisingly un-gimmicky and sounds quite natural.  It doesn't seem to affect the underlying sound.  The 3D effect is also more subtle then you would expect.  It's no where near as strong as something like dolby headphone/pro logic.  The only way it seems to change the signature is by slightly raising some of the highs and increasing airiness.  There is no added reverb or any crap like that.
   
  When switched ON it spreads out the soundstage width (usually), raises the height, increase separation, and adds some air up top.  It doesn't seem to change the depth much though.  It also slightly raises the overall loudness, so you'll probably want to turn down the volume just a smidge after engaging it.
   
  It works better with some songs then others.  With some songs there isn't a huge difference between switching it ON and OFF, while others it sounds pretty remarkable when switched ON.  It seems to do especially well with recordings with just a handful of instruments like jazz and chamber music.  It really pushes the instruments farther away form each other in a natural sounding way.  It also works really well when the recording captures live ambience, like someone performing in a concert hall with the natural reverb and ambience captured in the recording. 
   
  For movies and TV I have it on all the time.  I don't see any reason not to use it with when watching them as it works well with no cons. 
   
  It pairs especially well with warm headphones, like the K702 Anniversaries.  The extra air is very welcome (I love air).  With the Anniversaries I leave it on 95% of the time.  If you have bright headphones like Audio Techinicas, you might not want any extra sparkle.  If that's the case, you can just very slightly eq down the high end by 1-2 dB and still keep the effect in-tact.  Like I said, the extra air is really welcome on warm headphones and makes them sound more clear and open.
   
  Like I said, the effect is subtle enough that it may take a minute to appreciate what it's doing.  After listening with the 3D switch ON for a bit and then switching back to direct stereo things will sound more mono-like, flat, and dull :\
   
  The one-dot position is quite different, and sounds more like a strong crossfeed.  It reduces the stereo width and pushes the sound out in front of you.  The main situation I find this useful is when listening to vintage recordings with excessive stereo separation and panning of sounds (the kinds that causes obvious listening fatigue).  This setting will wrangle the sounds in and push them in front of you.  For more modern records that have been mastered properly, this seems a bit detrimental as it just decreases the width unnecessarily IMO. 
   
   
  I'm going to try and see if I can record some audio demos by grabbing the signal from the HP jack.


----------



## chicolom

I got impatient and did more M-stage vs iCan comparing.  I hooked both of them up to my TCC TC-716 box so I could A-B switch them.  For some reason, I have to set both amps to maximum gain (+20dB) and nearly max the volume knobs to get any decent listening signal.  Those kind of levels would normally blow up my headphones (and ears) so something must be wrong with the setup 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  20dB gain + nearly max volume _probably _isn't the "sweet spot" for these amps.  At least this setup lets me instantly switch between the two.
   
  Anyways, my impressions are that the M-stage sounds a bit more transparent and clear with an airier sound.  The iCan's highs sound a little smoother and darker.  The iCan has a little more midrange.  The M-stage's soundstage is slightly more open, it's able to place some things slightly farther.  I believe it may have slightly better dynamics too.  The differences are minor of course, and you would adjust to either one after a minute.   Of course when you throw the switches on the iCan everything changes.
   
  Hmmm....I'm definitely keeping the iCan because I love the switches on it.  I think the M-stage is probably a slightly better amp for pure stereo though - and it's a very good amp for double amping my Dolby Headphone decoders when gaming because it boosts the soundstage size.  The iCan does too, but I compared it to the iCan with both double amping my DSS, and the M-stage still boosts the soundstage size to be slightly bigger.  Dangit!  I  was hoping they would be identical so I could just sell the M-stage and get my funds back.  Especially since I just bought a Fidelio X1!!
   
  I'll have to decide if it's worth keeping both amps...


----------



## Alexein Aner

Quote: 





chicolom said:


> For some reason, I have to set both amps to maximum gain (+20dB) and nearly max the volume knobs to get any decent listening signal.


----------



## younglee200

From a user who already has a Nuforce Icon HD (equiv. to the UDAC) , using it as a DAC/Amp, could I expect to get noticable (if any) improvement if I dedicate the UDAC into a DAC and get the Matrix M stage as an amplifier?  
   
  I have HE-400s and Audio technica a900x as my main headphones.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





alexein aner said:


>


 
  I agree!


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





alexein aner said:


>


 
   
  I think it's because the TC-716 box was never meant to have a headphone plugged into the 3.5mm IN/OUT jack and it cuts the signal down or something...


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





younglee200 said:


> From a user who already has a Nuforce Icon HD (equiv. to the UDAC) , using it as a DAC/Amp, could I expect to get noticable (if any) improvement if I dedicate the UDAC into a DAC and get the Matrix M stage as an amplifier?
> 
> I have HE-400s and Audio technica a900x as my main headphones.


 
   
  The Nufoce Icon HD looks more like the Nufoce *HDP*, _not_ the UDAC.  If it were the UDAC, I would say "yes" the M-stage will probably give some noticeable improvement.  But since it looks like it's the HDP/Icon HD, that is more powerful and the improvement will most likely be more minimal (if any).


----------



## hifienthusiast

I had a pair of Sennheiser HD650 paired with a Musical Fidlity V-DAC (original version), Lehmann Black Cube Linear clone (non branded, bought from China) headphone amp last year which I didn't enjoy, mainly because I found the combination having a dark, distant and laid back presentation. I sold them and got a Stax 2050 II basic which I still own. The Stax is much more airy and fast, but lacks bass weight.

 I recently got a Sennheiser HD600 and Matrix M-Stage with USB. I find the USB DAC is not as good as the Musical Fidelity V-DAC. Therefore I am using the V-DAC connected to the M-Sage analogue input. This combination sounds much more dynamic than the HD650, V-DAC and non branded BCL. I think the sound improvement is mainly due to the Matrix M-Stage which has better components than the non branded clone in which second hand filtering caps and poorer components are used.

 Therefore choosing a right combination of headphone and dedicated headphone amp is important. Overall I am very happy with the Matrix with HD600.


----------



## Chris J

hifienthusiast said:


> I had a pair of Sennheiser HD650 paired with a Musical Fidlity V-DAC (original version), Lehmann Black Cube Linear clone (non branded, bought from China) headphone amp last year which I didn't enjoy, mainly because I found the combination having a dark, distant and laid back presentation. I sold them and got a Stax 2050 II basic which I still own. The Stax is much more airy and fast, but lacks bass weight.
> 
> 
> I recently got a Sennheiser HD600 and Matrix M-Stage with USB. I find the USB DAC is not as good as the Musical Fidelity V-DAC. Therefore I am using the V-DAC connected to the M-Sage analogue input. This combination sounds much more dynamic than the HD650, V-DAC and non branded BCL. I think the sound improvement is mainly due to the Matrix M-Stage which has better components than the non branded clone in which second hand filtering caps and poorer components are used.
> ...




Overall, what do you prefer, the Stax 2050 II or the HD600?


----------



## chicolom

My FiiO HS2 switcher arrived, much quicker than I was expecting coming from China.
   
  So tiny and cute, yet so useful.


----------



## Chris J

More comparo......
   
  This time:
  In this corner, the champeen, the heavyweight, the Matrix M Stage, weighing in at approx. $250. This the version without the DAC and without the cute little airholes. Op Amp is the LM4562, input caps were removed.
  And in the other corner, the Contender, The One, The Only, The iBasso D12, weighing it at about $275. Op Amps are stock.
   
  DAC used was the built in DAC in the iBasso D12.
  The M Stage was driven via the Line Out jack on the iBasso.
  And the 'phones? My trusty black Q701.
   
  This one is tough to call, both amps are very transparent for the price.
  On one hand, the iBasso does seem to have the edge as it seems a bit more articulate, more detailed, a bit more "audiophile" but I think this is just a side effect of the lightness of the iBasso.
  On the other hand, the Matrix just sounds fuller, for example, brushes on drums sound fuller, you can hear the brushes on the drum skin, vocals sound more full bodied, acoustic guitars have a bit more wood to them.
  The iBasso just sounds a touch brighter, or probably more accurately has a touch less fullness, less mass, less weight, not to the extent where I would say that it is harsh, just a bit lightweight. With the iBasso, detail almost seems to be slightly over emphasized. The iBasso makes an acoustic piano sounds a little smaller, like a 6 foot grand, the Matrix makes an acoustic piano sound a bit more like an 8 foot grand. This isn't to say the iBasso is harsh or strident, it just lacks that extra touch of bass fullness. A bit less natural, a bit more artificial. The iBasso renders a bit more of a delicate sound.
   
  Bottom line is: the iBasso is a damn fine DAC amp for $275.00
  But the headphone amp in the ibasso looses a bit of that naturalness the M Stage tends to convey.
  Comparing headphone amp to headphone amp, I was surprised at how close the race really is.
   
  Chris


----------



## Change is Good

Hey guys, being that the M-Stage has an output of 5ohms, will it distort the sound on my Fidelio X1 I just ordered?


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





change is good said:


> Hey guys, being that the M-Stage has an output of 5ohms, will it distort the sound on my Fidelio X1 I just ordered?


 
   
  No, don't worry about it....


----------



## zazex

...and the M Stage vs the E12?


----------



## beaver316

Quote: 





zazex said:


> ...and the M Stage vs the E12?


 
   
  This is something I'd be interested in reading about.


----------



## Chris J

zazex said:


> ...and the M Stage vs the E12?




Patience..........coming up soon!

Thanks for the interest!


----------



## Chris J

chicolom said:


> My FiiO HS2 switcher arrived, much quicker than I was expecting coming from China.
> 
> So tiny and cute, yet so useful.




What!
No tubes?


----------



## iron_gr

Will the latest version of this amp be good match for my HD580? Ebay or headfistore??

 I'm reading about it for months now, it looks like one of the best out there. Glad that we can have such devices in a logical price


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





chris j said:


> What!
> No tubes?


 
   
  Nope :\


----------



## hifienthusiast

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Overall, what do you prefer, the Stax 2050 II or the HD600?


 
  The presentations of the Stax and Sennheiser are quite different. The Stax gives a clearer, faster, more open and transparent sound. Its midrange is magical like the Quad ESL57 electrostatic speakers which I once owned. However it lacks bass weight and slam. The Matrix M Stage & HD600 has more authority and in some ways more musical (less clinical) than the Stax.
   
  I am happy with both types of sounds. I leave the Matrix Sennheiser at work and use the Stax at home


----------



## Chris J

hifienthusiast said:


> The presentations of the Stax and Sennheiser are quite different. The Stax gives a clearer, faster, more open and transparent sound. Its midrange is magical like the Quad ESL57 electrostatic speakers which I once owned. However it lacks bass weight and slam. The Matrix M Stage & HD600 has more authority and in some ways more musical (less clinical) than the Stax.
> 
> I am happy with both types of sounds. I leave the Matrix Sennheiser at work and use the Stax at home



 
 Thanks for the impressions! Looks like I could live with a pair of dynamics AND a pair of electrostatics. I know what you mean by the magical midrange, dynamics just don't do that.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





zazex said:


> ...and the M Stage vs the E12?


 
  ............is here.
  The Eagle Has Landed.
  The Fox is in The Henhouse.
  etc.
   
  here's my review:
  I think the M Stage sounds better than the E12.
  End of review.   
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  Ummm? Why?
   
  For a start, the E12 is nice little amp for the $$$. And it even drives 600 Ohm Beyers!
  But the M Stage just sounds a little more open, shows just a little more ambience and reverberation, a bit more stereophonic, if you will.  For example, the reverb at the introduction to "Never Say Never" by Tristan Prettyman has a greater sense of space to it. The acoustic guitars in that track also sound a bit fuller and a bit more natural, a bit more woody thru the big M. 
  I hate to say this, but the heavier M Stage (it probably wieghs 5 times as much as the E12) sounds, well, weightier. This isn't to say that the bass in the E12 sounds rolled off or weak, it just means the M Stage has a slightly more relaxed presentation, a bit fuller sound, a bit more (here's that word again!) weight or a bit more mass to it's presentation. But this added mass isn't something that obscures detail, to these ears, the M Stage actually sounds a bit clearer.  
  And the midrange............there's something about the M Stage midrange: Tristan Prettyman's voice has a more natural quality thru the M. The E12 sounds a touch more artificial, a bit more "reproduced" or recorded. Simone Dinnerstein's piano (OK, it's probably a rental!) in The Goldberg Variations sounds a mite bit more real thru the M, and a touch lighter and brighter thru the E12. But the E12's treble doesn't get harsh, it's an easy, relaxing amp to listen to. On Meaghan Smith's "The Cricket's Orchestra" (I'm her biggest fan BTW) the treble may sound a bit more delicate thru the E12, it may have a bit of a feathery quality to it, but I don't hear any harshness in the treble or mids. Nice! Let's talk about that midrange somemore! On "If you Asked Me To" from Meaghan Smith's album, the M Stage does a better job of reproducing that midrange air, fullness, shimmer and presence that a REAL cymbal has. The cymbals just sound lighter and less full thru the E. OK? OK, I think I've rambled on enough.....
   
  No, I haven't:
  Some closing thoughts:
  1.  Before anyone thinks about going all Sarah Conner on their E12 and squashing it to bits in a very large press and screaming "You're Terminated!", keep in mind these differences are very subtle. 
  2.  I've been using a pair of Q701s for this comparison and I gotta say, the E12 is a nice match for the Q701s!
  3.  Maybe I'm not the most golden eared kid on the bock, but I had to perform a maddenly large amount of swapping back and forth to get a grip on these differences. Despite all this, I still like Tristan Prettyman's album "Cedar and Gold".......LOL!  YMMV.
  4.   And the DAC? I used the DAC in a wee little iBasso D12 for this comparison.
  5.  The E12 will fit in your pocket, the Matrix M Stage won't fit in your pocket.
  6.  As always, I thoroughly charge the E12 and D12 batteries before any comparisons. And disconnected the battery charger during comparisons.
  7.  I use that irritating level match method: a test tone and an SPL meter to ensure both amps are driving the 'phones at the same level.
  8.  I'm getting the itch to repeat this with a pair of Beyer DT880s! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  9.  I met Meaghan Smith once, and told her I loved her album, I was relieved to see that she didn't think I was crazy, in fact she was rather flattered!


----------



## Change is Good

Quote: 





chris j said:


> 5.  The E12 will fit in your pocket, the Matrix M Stage won't fit in your pocket.


 
   
  I literally laughed out loud after reading that


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





change is good said:


> I literally laughed out loud after reading that


 
  Why?
  It's a stone cold fact!


----------



## chicolom

The E12 is too small for my pockets.  It gets lost in there when I go to find it.
   
  The M-stage is a nice snug fit.


----------



## LugBug1

Enjoyed reading that Chris J


----------



## Chris J

lugbug1 said:


> Enjoyed reading that Chris J




Hey!
Thanks, man!

I noticed you have a pair of HD800.........those are pretty hard core, I'd like to get my greasy paws on a pair......


----------



## conheo

Happy to see topic is keep on going...
   
  I have m-stage for a year, and yes did a dig on topic before pick up the amp from a fellow head-fier. 
   
  Before it had op6x7 tamaudio (cannot remember) install already in the amp, after a year listening i feel it too coloured for my taste. So i swap to lm4562 and planning to remove the input capacitor later (my friend will help me cause i dont have the soldering =) ). Now, it sounds really good.
   
  Long live mstage.


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





chris j said:


> I noticed you have a pair of HD800.........those are pretty hard core, I'd like to get my greasy paws on a pair......


 
   
  x2


----------



## Chris J

conheo said:


> Happy to see topic is keep on going...
> 
> I have m-stage for a year, and yes did a dig on topic before pick up the amp from a fellow head-fier.
> 
> ...




If you're going to remove the input caps, make sure your source(s) don't have any DC offset on their output(s).
Hopefully your solder pal can help you with this?


----------



## LugBug1

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Hey!
> Thanks, man!
> 
> I noticed you have a pair of HD800.........those are pretty hard core, I'd like to get my greasy paws on a pair......


 
   
  Quote: 





chicolom said:


> x2


 
  Yeah they're alright...  
   
  But not worth the difference in cash from the Q/K/70X's. Unless you are a hardcore audiophile!
  The M-stage is a great match with them too.


----------



## Chris J

lugbug1 said:


> Yeah they're alright...
> 
> But not worth the difference in cash from the Q/K/70X's. Unless you are a hardcore audiophile!
> The M-stage is a great match with them too.



 
 Yes, but how does Coltrane sound thru a pair of HD800s?


----------



## LugBug1

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Yes, but how does Coltrane sound thru a pair of HD800s?


 
  I'm warming to jazz with these. But some older recordings (such as Coltrane) that have very stark stereo imaging can be a bit tiring because of the very wide soundstage. Cross feed can help in these occasions, but modern recordings sound amazing. Great all rounders in general though and defo end-gamers for me. I'm not rich and saved hard for these puppies.
   
  I'm going through a bit of a vintage amp phase at the mo, as the Senn's respond really well with the massive impedance outputs of 70's amps. Bought 3 in the last month ha! Cheap and cheerful (and very big!)


----------



## Les Adams

Thank you so much for this fantastic and informative review, on the basis of which I bought a Matrix M-Stage. This one has been upgraded with an LM4562 opamp. I didn't get to hear it with the original chip, although it was supplied in the box with it. All I can say is WOW! This really is a true head-fi bargain and I recommend it 100%, I am driving Sony MDR7520's and the clarity and definition are truly awesome. The sound is fast, tight very dynamic and quite breathtaking. I hear new textures and sounds in almost every song I play --  although I may be deaf by this time next year if I run it anywhere close to the headroom level!  I think Lehmann must be more than a little miffed by this amp and with good reason!


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





les adams said:


> Thank you so much for this fantastic and informative review, on the basis of which I bought a Matrix M-Stage. This one has been upgraded with an LM4562 opamp. I didn't get to hear it with the original chip, although it was supplied in the box with it. All I can say is WOW! This really is a true head-fi bargain and I recommend it 100%, I am driving Sony MDR7520's and the clarity and definition are truly awesome. The sound is fast, tight very dynamic and quite breathtaking. I hear new textures and sounds in almost every song I play --  although I may be deaf by this time next year if I run it anywhere close to the headroom level!  I think Lehmann must be more than a little miffed by this amp and with good reason!


 
  Well it ain't exactly like you can copyright the Lehman design...................an Op Amp in a box with a discrete transistor voltage follower output stage. There's no innovation in the design.   
  Not trying to be a downer, just honest!


----------



## XHale

Quote: 





chris j said:


> ............is here.
> The Eagle Has Landed.
> The Fox is in The Henhouse.
> etc.
> ...


 

 Would you say the M-Stage is worth an extra $50 over the E12? $190 used for the M-Stage is pretty good right?


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





xhale said:


> Would you say the M-Stage is worth an extra $50 over the E12? $190 used for the M-Stage is pretty good right?


 
   
  In my opinion, yes, the M Stage is worth the extra money! The difference may be subtle, but anything that gets me to a more natural, less electronic sound is a very good thing.
   
  Edit:
  Especially if you listen to Classical music!


----------



## fuzzybaffy

Chris J, (sorry if this is off-topic everybody) which do you like better, the AKG Q701 or the Beyer DT880?


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





fuzzybaffy said:


> Chris J, (sorry if this is off-topic everybody) which do you like better, the AKG Q701 or the Beyer DT880?


 
  I'll just go with, it depends.
  I prefer the Q701 for most Rock and some Jazz and prefer the DT880 with classical and other more naturally recorded forms of music.


----------



## elwappo99

I'm having a bit of an issue with my unit, which I have narrowed down to the OP-AMP. I've got an Audio-GD moon, and after 4-5 hours of being on, I get a low level hum that doesn't go away with a power cycle, but does go away after it cools down. Any ideas on what might be wrong?
   
  Also, what's the bees knees on opamps? Is everyone going for a OPA627 with a class-A bias mod? I'm really in love with the Moon OPAMP, and I'd like to figure out what's going wrong here. It's a very full sounding opamp and really improves over stock.


----------



## Change is Good

Quote: 





elwappo99 said:


> I'm having a bit of an issue with my unit, which I have narrowed down to the OP-AMP. I've got an Audio-GD moon, and after 4-5 hours of being on, I get a low level hum that doesn't go away with a power cycle, but does go away after it cools down. Any ideas on what might be wrong?
> 
> Also, what's the bees knees on opamps? Is everyone going for a OPA627 with a class-A bias mod? I'm really in love with the Moon OPAMP, and I'd like to figure out what's going wrong here. It's a very full sounding opamp and really improves over stock.


 
   
  I've had the same low level hum with all op-amps I've tried. I think it's a issue within the M-Stage or a ground looping issue. Some input on this would be appreciated.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





change is good said:


> I've had the same low level hum with all op-amps I've tried. I think it's a issue within the M-Stage or a ground looping issue. Some input on this would be appreciated.


 
  I only hear a low level hum when I use IEMs with the M Stage.
   
  I don't hear a low level hum with Q701, DT880, etc.
   
  The Bees Knees with Op Amps is the LM4562......'cos that's what I use!


----------



## LugBug1

Quote: 





chris j said:


> The Bees Knees with Op Amps is the LM4562......'cos that's what I use!


 
  +1


----------



## Lohb

Hi there !
   
  I'm looking to drop a custom opamp in a Matrix DAC M-stage soon.
   
  I've been told that OPA2209, OPA1642 and OPA602BP are nice upgrades from a fellow member but not specifically for synergy with the Hifiman 400's. ....some members mentioned LM4562 recently in the thread is that upgrade dual or single opamp ? I had it already in an altoid tin and it was very detailed....
  Was also told that 627's and 637's not  good drop-in opamps for Matrix hardware even though a lot of ebay sellers offer them as rolling options in their listing....something to do with a mis-match in speed design I believe (?)
   
   
  My aim if possible is to tame the treble a bit at the amp stage. I may also upgrade to the Hifiman 500's in future, therefore trying to find an opamp that would be good for the 400's and 500's....and I read bumping the M-stage +10 gain is OK for the 500's so I do like the flexibility of this amp.....(opamp rolling and gain control)
  Though given how cheap the dual opamps are, I could buy one more suited for the 500's later if there is no bridging opamps given the different SQ's of these cans.


----------



## elwappo99

Quote: 





change is good said:


> I've had the same low level hum with all op-amps I've tried. I think it's a issue within the M-Stage or a ground looping issue. Some input on this would be appreciated.


 
   
  Strange. Mine is definitely OPamp dependent. Trying various opamps the only one that gives off any hum is the Audio-GD one, after many hours of use.


----------



## elwappo99

Quote: 





chris j said:


> The Bees Knees with Op Amps is the LM4562......'cos that's what I use!


 
   
  I do like the LM4562, and I get no issues with it, but it just doesn't have the full body and warmth of the Moon OMPAMP.


----------



## Lohb

Would these chips (dual LM4562) and socket work with the M-stage .....?
  They seem like a better alternative to M-stage ebay sellers' opamp rolling choices in
  compatibility and price.... (627A or B/637A or B)


----------



## LugBug1

Quote: 





lohb said:


> Would these chips (dual LM4562) and socket work with the M-stage .....?
> They seem like a better alternative to M-stage ebay sellers' opamp rolling choices in
> compatibility and price.... (627A or B/637A or B)


 
  You only need one LM4562NA as it is a dual opamp. You would use the adaptor for two single opamps such as the opa627. But yes both will work with the m-stage


----------



## Lohb

Quote: 





lugbug1 said:


> You only need one LM4562NA as it is a dual opamp. You would use the adaptor for two single opamps such as the opa627. But yes both will work with the m-stage


 

 Ha, of course.........never picked up on that DUAL info in the ebay title....well, I can just buy these 2 and drop the second LM4562 opamp in my BSG portable amp as the current opamp is a bit muddy as it is...
   
  Thanks LugBug1.


----------



## Chris J

lohb said:


> Hi there !
> 
> I'm looking to drop a custom opamp in a Matrix DAC M-stage soon.
> 
> ...




I've rolled in a few different OpAmps, no matter which one you install in the M Stage, it still sounds like an M Stage.
If you really want to tame the treble you may want to try a tube amp, or, (oh no!) try different headphones...
Or use an EQ.
How nasty is the treble?


----------



## Lohb

Quote: 





chris j said:


> I've rolled in a few different OpAmps, no matter which one you install in the M Stage, it still sounds like an M Stage.
> If you really want to tame the treble you may want to try a tube amp, or, (oh no!) try different headphones...
> 
> 
> ...


 

 You make the M-stage sound like it is so-so no matter what you do...! Is there a better one for the same price range you are using ?
  Hifiman 400's are known for bright treble spikes in certain EQ regions.....so much so that there is an earpad mod (Jergpad) by one member on the thread over there for the 400's / 500's that targets that aspect among other isssues with these headphones.


----------



## Chris J

lohb said:


> You make the M-stage sound like it is so-so no matter what you do...! Is there a better one for the same price range you are using ?
> Hifiman 400's are known for bright treble spikes in certain EQ regions.....so much so that there is an earpad mod (Jergpad) by one member on the thread over there for the 400's / 500's that targets that aspect among other isssues with these headphones.




I think the M Stage is a very fine amp for the money.
A lot of Q701 owners use one, the Q701 is known for being a rather bright sounding headphone.
All I'm saying is that rolling in another Op Amp will not change the sound of the M Stage much.


----------



## Lohb

Quote: 





chris j said:


> I think the M Stage is a very fine amp for the money.
> A lot of Q701 owners use one, the Q701 is known for being a rather bright sounding headphone.
> All I'm saying is that rolling in another Op Amp will not change the sound of the M Stage much.


 
   


 I see. Thanks.
   
  I wonder how many watts the Hifiman 400s and 500's get from this amp...
  Given that the Hifiman really shine through the Emotiva....worried the watts might be underpowered with the 500s I hope to get in future.


----------



## Chris J

lohb said:


> I see. Thanks.
> 
> I wonder how many watts the Hifiman 400s and 500's get from this amp...
> Given that the Hifiman really shine through the Emotiva....worried the watts might be underpowered with the 500s I hope to get in future.




I don't know much about the HiFiMan stuff, sorry!


----------



## LugBug1

Quote: 





lohb said:


> I see. Thanks.
> 
> I wonder how many watts the Hifiman 400s and 500's get from this amp...
> Given that the Hifiman really shine through the Emotiva....worried the watts might be underpowered with the 500s I hope to get in future.


 
  The 400's will work better than the 500's with the M-stage as they are more efficient. But the m-stage doesn't give a full watt into any cans, its designed more for high impedance hp's or headphones that are known to have impedance swings such as the K70X. 
   
  It wasn't a great match with the HE500's or LCD2's when I tried them. They didn't sound bad, but I know they sound better with other amps that give out a lot more current such as the Audio gd line or Schitt amps. It's all about the matching in this hobby, I'm not saying the m-stage isn't good enough for those orthos as I highly recommend the m-stage as a great starter amp with the HD800's. Its purely a spec thing.


----------



## elwappo99

I owned the M-stage at the same time as the HE-400, HE-500 and HE-6, as well as an Emotiva, Little Dot MKVI+, and Audio-GD 10SE. There is a pronounced difference in bass control going from the M-stage to a balanced amplifier (Audio-GD 10se OR LIttle Dot MKVI+). There was another step up when going from those balanced amps to the speaker amp. If you read over in the emotiva thread, I just tossed a resistor in the audio chain and found good results. You could consider this with the more sensitive HE-400.


----------



## Lohb

Quote: 





elwappo99 said:


> I owned the M-stage at the same time as the HE-400, HE-500 and HE-6, as well as an Emotiva, Little Dot MKVI+, and Audio-GD 10SE. There is a pronounced difference in bass control going from the M-stage to a balanced amplifier (Audio-GD 10se OR LIttle Dot MKVI+). There was another step up when going from those balanced amps to the speaker amp. If you read over in the emotiva thread, I just tossed a resistor in the audio chain and found good results. You could consider this with the more sensitive HE-400.


 

 Thanks for the feedback from prior ABXing everyone.
  I was thinking of the *30 watt NuForce Icon Amp* now after reading a detailed ABX by Armaegis.... resistors for 400's and remove those when I get the 500's. I was going to use a simple *Tenor TE7022 + **ES9023 DAC* behind the amp. There might also be the possiblity of swapping out the opamps to *LM4562s *in the Nuforce as one seller in Hong Kong sells a mis-matched 6x opamp replacement kit for the Nuforce, but LM4562 may be more suited to its voltage range.
  I cannot buy the Emotiva due to its size and int. shipping costs.....surface shipping from the states is well....G.O.N.E.


----------



## jibzilla

.


----------



## WEeziel

Quote: 





lugbug1 said:


> You only need one LM4562NA as it is a dual opamp. You would use the adaptor for two single opamps such as the opa627. But yes both will work with the m-stage


 
  Not sure if I understood this correctly. You still need the adapter if just buy a single LM4562NA or if you buy 2? Also, could you guys give the so called "Top three opamps" for M-Stage. I see that the 627 and LM4562 are the most used ones. Is there a third considerable option?


----------



## LugBug1

Quote: 





weeziel said:


> Not sure if I understood this correctly. You still need the adapter if just buy a single LM4562NA or if you buy 2? Also, could you guys give the so called "Top three opamps" for M-Stage. I see that the 627 and LM4562 are the most used ones. Is there a third considerable option?


 
  The LM4562NA is a dual opamp (stereo) so you only need one and therefore no adapter is required. If you were to choose to use a single opamp (mono/one channel) then you will need an adapter to fit two. My opinion is, why use two when one can do the job perfectly well. The amplifier is not a dual mono design.


----------



## nickwin

If anyone with a 2012 version m stage with lm4562 would be interested in trading for a 2012 version with opa627 send me a pm 
   
  Edit: I just realized the lm4562 is plug and play with the m stage.  I guess I'd be better off just swapping it out so I can compare the two.


----------



## Change is Good

Quote: 





nickwin said:


> If anyone with a 2012 version m stage with lm4562 would be interested in trading for a 2012 version with opa627 send me a pm


 
  I have one... but am not trading.
   
  Muahahahahahahaaa!!!


----------



## Lohb

Quote: 





nickwin said:


> If anyone with a 2012 version m stage with lm4562 would be interested in trading for a 2012 version with opa627 send me a pm
> 
> Edit: I just realized the lm4562 is plug and play with the m stage.  I guess I'd be better off just swapping it out so I can compare the two.


 

 Just make sure you get a real LM4562....I have two on the way and not sure they will be real after looking at the ebayers track record.
  I'd even just buy from the states from an established retail ebay store vs Asia to be 100% sure. No point in dropping tons of cash on your audio chain to have a fake opamp at the heart of it !
  It is a sweet opamp on separation/ detail but if you have bright cans LM4562 can get a bit bitey as you ramp up the volume...


----------



## casperry

Hello,
   
  I'm listening to a brand new m-stage amp and akg k702s, which have had maybe a dozen of hours of listening time. So far this combination is performing poorly - the sound is sibilant, very metallic and tonally  off. Has anyone else had similar experience and the sound signature later changed for better due to burn-in?
   
  Thanks,
  Cas


----------



## nickwin

lohb said:


> Just make sure you get a real LM4562....I have two on the way and not sure they will be real after looking at the ebayers track record.
> I'd even just buy from the states from an established retail ebay store vs Asia to be 100% sure. No point in dropping tons of cash on your audio chain to have a fake opamp at the heart of it !
> It is a sweet opamp on separation/ detail but if you have bright cans LM4562 can get a bit bitey as you ramp up the volume...




Thanks for the pointers. Truthfully iv never been 100% happy with the m stage k701 combo and iv recently added a pair of Mad Dogs to my headhone inventory and they just amplify the problems I have with the opa627 m stage which is that its a little to warm/colored, the bass is somewhat exaggerated and the treble altough somewhat recessed is a little harsh to my ears. So with the price of these opamps I'm willing to give the lm4562 a try b4 I try a different amp. Do you feel that the lm4562 has harsher or worse treble than the class a opa627 or just more of the same treble?


----------



## Lohb

Quote: 





nickwin said:


> Thanks for the pointers. Truthfully iv never been 100% happy with the m stage k701 combo and iv recently added a pair of Mad Dogs to my headhone inventory and they just amplify the problems I have with the opa627 m stage which is that its a little to warm/colored, the bass is somewhat exaggerated and the treble altough somewhat recessed is a little harsh to my ears. So with the price of these opamps I'm willing to give the lm4562 a try b4 I try a different amp. Do you feel that the lm4562 has harsher or worse treble than the class a opa627 or just more of the same treble?


 

 Sorry, I never compared the 2. Perhaps someone else would know.


----------



## nickwin

lohb said:


> Sorry, I never compared the 2. Perhaps someone else would know.




Did you compare it to the stock opamp?


----------



## blueangel2323

I realize it's been a few years since this review. Have any noteworthy competitors (at the same or lower price point) been released in the mean time? I'm trying to decide on an amp that I'll stick with for a long time. I'll be driving a hybrid custom IEM and some mid-fi headphones (so variable gain is a must). The highest end full-sized cans I'll likely have will be something like the HE-400 or HD600; I won't be able to afford an HD800 or anything like that any time soon. In this price range I'm considering the iFi iCAN which is really tempting because of the extra functionality (bass/soundstage switches). Many years ago something called the Original Master was considered a giant-killer but there are probably better choices now? On the other hand, I could get a used O2, which is considered "reference" by many around here, for only $100 which is half the price of any of the above.

On a side note, what are people's take on gain vs. volume pot? For the same headphone, what results in better sound quality, high gain + low volume, or low gain + high volume?


----------



## dogwan

Quote: 





casperry said:


> Hello,
> 
> I'm listening to a brand new m-stage amp and akg k702s, which have had maybe a dozen of hours of listening time. So far this combination is performing poorly - the sound is sibilant, very metallic and tonally  off. Has anyone else had similar experience and the sound signature later changed for better due to burn-in?
> 
> ...


 
  The way your 1st sentence reads sounds like both the amp and headphones are brand new?

 The AKG K7** series are known for an extremely long burn in time/settling period. Somewhere in the range of 100+ hours if I remember correctly. If you can find a way, download a "pink noise" track and put in on repeat at respectable volume and cover the headphones with a couple of pillows for a couple days. What you're describing is pretty much what I experienced demoing a brand new pair for a few days. Ended up buying a used pair of 701's that were nothing like the ones I demoed since they had several hundreds of hours logged.
   
  That being said, those cans are known for being a little bright and analytical. Before I sold mine, I got probably the best sound on them out of the M-stage compared to my other amps.


----------



## casperry

Quote: 





dogwan said:


> The way your 1st sentence reads sounds like both the amp and headphones are brand new?
> 
> The AKG K7** series are known for an extremely long burn in time/settling period. Somewhere in the range of 100+ hours if I remember correctly. If you can find a way, download a "pink noise" track and put in on repeat at respectable volume and cover the headphones with a couple of pillows for a couple days. What you're describing is pretty much what I experienced demoing a brand new pair for a few days. Ended up buying a used pair of 701's that were nothing like the ones I demoed since they had several hundreds of hours logged.
> 
> That being said, those cans are known for being a little bright and analytical. Before I sold mine, I got probably the best sound on them out of the M-stage compared to my other amps.


 
   
  Thanks for the insight! The cans are essentially new, they were returned as unwanted by the previous owner. I will let them fully burn in before making the final judgment. I recall that the pair of k701s I had before conveyed the same unnatural feeling to music when I used them with the Little Dot MK3 and that pair was fully burned in. I'm not fully convinced that the sound will change fundamentally though.


----------



## elwappo99

Quote: 





casperry said:


> Thanks for the insight! The cans are essentially new, they were returned as unwanted by the previous owner. I will let them fully burn in before making the final judgment. I recall that the pair of k701s I had before conveyed the same unnatural feeling to music when I used them with the Little Dot MK3 and that pair was fully burned in. I'm not fully convinced that the sound will change fundamentally though.


 
   
  That's certainly interesting to hear. What other headphones do you have? What DAC do you have this hooked up to?


----------



## casperry

I have just recently returned to this hobby so at the moment I own only k702s, matrix m-stage and topping d20 DAC. I have owned AKG K240DF, K701, HD600, HD650, Beyerdynamic DT150 and a bunch of other headphones not worth mentioning. I really liked the K240DFs, better than the HD650s, they were tonally natural but didn't like the K701s at all, they were the worst out of them all. They had the biggest sound stage, great amount of detail but nothing sounded real on them. HD600s and K240DFs are also studio and analytical headphones but they possessed musicality. I'm afraid that this basic characteristic will not go away, the sibilance could be tamed with longer burn in though.


----------



## elwappo99

Quote: 





casperry said:


> I have just recently returned to this hobby so at the moment I own only k702s, matrix m-stage and topping d20 DAC. I have owned AKG K240DF, K701, HD600, HD650, Beyerdynamic DT150 and a bunch of other headphones not worth mentioning. I really liked the K240DFs, better than the HD650s, they were tonally natural but didn't like the K701s at all, they were the worst out of them all. They had the biggest sound stage, great amount of detail but nothing sounded real on them. HD600s and K240DFs are also studio and analytical headphones but they possessed musicality. I'm afraid that this basic characteristic will not go away, the sibilance could be tamed with longer burn in though.


 
   
  I'm not super familiar with your DAC, so it might be possible the DAC has a touch of brightness. Try plugging into a different source and see if you get any different results? 
   
  The K701 tends to really polarize people. Either they really like the headphone, or they hate it because of the sibilant top and light bass. It seems like you've got all the components lined up to have a pretty good sound. I'd let the Matrix settle in a bit more and depending on how many hours the K701 have gotten, maybe give them a few hours of burn in as well?


----------



## casperry

D20 is probably as decent as m-stage is compared to some of its more expensive counterparts made in west. Great value DAC is what I'm trying to say.  Do solid state amps like m-stage benefit much from burn in? My LD3 tube amp changed the sound a lot during the first 10-50 hours but tubes operate differently. I plugged them in my Yamaha receiver, there are some minute differences.


----------



## elwappo99

Quote: 





casperry said:


> D20 is probably as decent as m-stage is compared to some of its more expensive counterparts made in west. Great value DAC is what I'm trying to say.  Do solid state amps like m-stage benefit much from burn in? My LD3 tube amp changed the sound a lot during the first 10-50 hours but tubes operate differently. I plugged them in my Yamaha receiver, there are some minute differences.


 
   
  I find the Mstage "warms up" a little bit after being on for 10 minutes or so. Nothing like a good tube amp though 
   
  If you've got a receiver I'd give a good listen.  I'd make sure they get about 50 hours of burn in. If it turns out you're still thinking these headphones are way too bright, it could be that you're ears and the K701 are just not meant to be.


----------



## bracko

Quote: 





casperry said:


> Hello,
> 
> I'm listening to a brand new m-stage amp and akg k702s, which have had maybe a dozen of hours of listening time. So far this combination is performing poorly - the sound is sibilant, very metallic and tonally  off. Has anyone else had similar experience and the sound signature later changed for better due to burn-in?
> 
> ...


 
   
  What is the gain setting on your Matrix amp?


----------



## casperry

Currently I have set the gain to 18db, it gives more slam so to speak. I did a little bit of research and the consensus is that the k701s require a very long burn in so I'll keep my combo for a while. I really hope that the sibilance and harshness in treble region will fade with time.


----------



## casperry

Just wanted to report back on the burn-in process and how the sound has changed. I really have started to like what I'm hearing, the tables have turned and now sibilance and harshness can be heard on some records whilst before it was there on most. Dynamics are much better also, so is the bass. Both the amp and the k702s have been burning in for 30 hours or so and still seem to be improving. Quite a change!


----------



## elwappo99

Quote: 





casperry said:


> Just wanted to report back on the burn-in process and how the sound has changed. I really have started to like what I'm hearing, the tables have turned and now sibilance and harshness can be heard on some records whilst before it was there on most. Dynamics are much better also, so is the bass. Both the amp and the k702s have been burning in for 30 hours or so and still seem to be improving. Quite a change!


 
   
  Awesome! Glad to hear. I don't know why the K701 line is so hard to "burn in" but they certainly made me a believer in burn in, to some extent. I think someone said they changed for him along the lines of 500 hours! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  I don't think I've ever bought a pair new and burned them in for that long, so I can't verify personally, but you might keep a loose tally of the hours


----------



## ShrikeT

What's the best place to buy one of these with the Class A biasing mod? Tamaudio, Ebay, or elsewhere?


----------



## casperry

That's why I decided not to return my k702s. Some folks are reporting changes even in 300-500 hour region, enough to turn haters into lovers.


----------



## BournePerfect

Quote: 





elwappo99 said:


> Awesome! Glad to hear. I don't know why the K701 line is so hard to "burn in" but they certainly made me a believer in burn in, to some extent. I think someone said they changed for him along the lines of 500 hours!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  A few of us have reported changes with over 500 hours of burn in. I literally left mine running for like 6+ months on end or more when I had them. Sounds crazy, but one day they suddenly sounded _significantly_ smoother-to the degree that there was almost no sibilance to speak of. It was around the 800-1000 hour mark. I thought I was crazy, but couldn't deny the extreme chance (no other equipment changes either)-then I ended up reading another couple of guys said the same thing-800ish hours brought more changes. Bottom line-ALWAYS have them running. 
   
  -Daniel


----------



## blueangel2323

Is there a listing of all the different revisions somewhere? How many revisions were there anyways? And what changed with each revision? I know that at some point the power transformer was covered to reduce interference, and at some point they added holes on the side of the casing. But when?

Also, what is the going rate for these in the used market?

Thanks.


----------



## elwappo99

Quote: 





bourneperfect said:


> A few of us have reported changes with over 500 hours of burn in. I literally left mine running for like 6+ months on end or more when I had them. Sounds crazy, but one day they suddenly sounded _significantly_ smoother-to the degree that there was almost no sibilance to speak of. It was around the 800-1000 hour mark. I thought I was crazy, but couldn't deny the extreme chance (no other equipment changes either)-then I ended up reading another couple of guys said the same thing-800ish hours brought more changes. Bottom line-ALWAYS have them running.
> 
> -Daniel


 
   
  Huh, interesting!
   
  I'm hoping my K702. 64AE opens up a bit as time goes on. For all the hype about these sounding amazing and such, they definitely lose the big benefits of the original line (namely, the very open sound). Guess time will have to tell this one. I think I might try to nab a very old K701 at some point if they don't open up pretty soon.


----------



## casperry

What I find that on some records the k702s actually sound very good, never mind the required burn-in time. It really varies from record to record and it makes me wonder if that's just a bad mastering job (boost the bass and treble and compress it all) and my headphones are just presenting that. You can hear deep in some, make out all the instruments and pinpoint them precisely but in some you have this mush and screech and I skip the track immediately.


----------



## elwappo99

Quote: 





casperry said:


> What I find that on some records the k702s actually sound very good, never mind the required burn-in time. It really varies from record to record and it makes me wonder if that's just a bad mastering job (boost the bass and treble and compress it all) and my headphones are just presenting that. You can hear deep in some, make out all the instruments and pinpoint them precisely but in some you have this mush and screech and I skip the track immediately.


 
   
  Sounds like that might be case. Got any really clear examples?


----------



## LugBug1

Quote: 





casperry said:


> What I find that on some records the k702s actually sound very good, never mind the required burn-in time. It really varies from record to record and it makes me wonder if that's just a bad mastering job (boost the bass and treble and compress it all) and my headphones are just presenting that. You can hear deep in some, make out all the instruments and pinpoint them precisely but in some you have this mush and screech and I skip the track immediately.


 
  Yeah the K70X line are famous for giving you a warts n'all presentation. They don't do any favours to bad recordings. But can sound amazing with good ones. They are my 2nd fave headphone just below the HD800's and above the LCD2's and HE500's! 
   
  I noticed the normal K702's are harsher in the treble than the last bunch of K701's and Q701's. There was defo change in sound when they released the Q's. 
   
  I haven't heard the Anniversary's but I really liked my last set of K701's. The soundstage wasn't quite as wide as the 702's but they were really balanced with a hint of warmth. So if you really like the AKG's but struggle with the treble a little, I would recommend either the Q's or 8 bump 701's.


----------



## casperry

Quote: 





elwappo99 said:


> Sounds like that might be case. Got any really clear examples?


 
   





   
  Watch some videos on youtube about loudness wars, most mainstream songs nowadays have more compressed dynamic range than in the past to make them sound better on small speakers and earbuds but the audio quality is very much degraded when played back on good equipment.


----------



## elwappo99

Quote: 





casperry said:


> Watch some videos on youtube about loudness wars, most mainstream songs nowadays have more compressed dynamic range than in the past to make them sound better on small speakers and earbuds but the audio quality is very much degraded when played back on good equipment.


 
   
  Oh, I was kind of hoping for specific examples of tracks that aren't sounding so great, so we can verify if there's something wonky or if its recording based.


----------



## casperry

My understanding was that the k702s were identical to the k701s, except for the navy blue colour and a detachable cable. Perhaps they have used slightly more rigid construction in the 702 version as this is a studio headphone and that may somewhat affect the sound as spec wise everything seem to be identical. Anyway I like how they sound with most songs with the matrix amp. One thing I miss though is that with the little dot mk3 amp I had, the vocals and instruments had this eerie feeling of being alive, especially vocals, I don't get this feeling with this combo. Perhaps it's the k702 or the combination of them and a solid state amp I have now as the ld3 was used with the hd600,650s and little know beyerdynamic dt150s.


----------



## casperry

Quote: 





elwappo99 said:


> Oh, I was kind of hoping for specific examples of tracks that aren't sounding so great, so we can verify if there's something wonky or if its recording based.


 
   
  My apologies for that, the reason why I didn't provide any specific songs was that I'm sure that my amp and headphones are working properly and only some records sound bad and it is down to how they simply sound. The initial harshness and spiky treble is gone unless it is too much in the record itself.


----------



## elwappo99

Quote: 





lugbug1 said:


> Yeah the K70X line are famous for giving you a warts n'all presentation. They don't do any favours to bad recordings. But can sound amazing with good ones. They are my 2nd fave headphone just below the HD800's and above the LCD2's and HE500's!
> 
> I noticed the normal K702's are harsher in the treble than the last bunch of K701's and Q701's. There was defo change in sound when they released the Q's.
> 
> I haven't heard the Anniversary's but I really liked my last set of K701's. The soundstage wasn't quite as wide as the 702's but they were really balanced with a hint of warmth. So if you really like the AKG's but struggle with the treble a little, I would recommend either the Q's or 8 bump 701's.


 
   
   
  The history of the line is a little bit strange to track. Basically the sound of the K701 has changed over time.  The driver itself has changed and added a bit more bass as the years go on. In addition the more recent versions have had angled pads, which also help. The K702 and Q701 are identical in sound to the K701, just the variations in driver and pad angles have changed to match the K701. 
   
   
   
  Quote: 





casperry said:


> My apologies for that, the reason why I didn't provide any specific songs was that I'm sure that my amp and headphones are working properly and only some records sound bad and it is down to how they simply sound. The initial harshness and spiky treble is gone unless it is too much in the record itself.


 
   
  Well, I'm glad you got it all figured out! I've actually got a pair of K702 playing through my Mstage right now. Really like this combo!


----------



## LugBug1

Quote: 





elwappo99 said:


> The history of the line is a little bit strange to track. Basically the sound of the K701 has changed over time.  The driver itself has changed and added a bit more bass as the years go on. In addition the more recent versions have had angled pads, which also help. The K702 and Q701 are identical in sound to the K701, *just the variations in driver and pad angles have changed to match the K701*.


 
  This is a hotly debated topic and one that will probably go on longer than head-fi haha But I've owned them for a while and could clearly hear the difference my friend. They toned down the treble and boosted the lower end a notch., This caused the soundstage to suffer slightly. The 701's changed to match the Q's, not the other way round. The original K702's stayed the same because they are the studio model and remained more neutral.  
   
  Anyways, lets not stray too much from topic  
   
  The M-stage is always my first recommendation for the AKG's. Its a great match.


----------



## elwappo99

Quote: 





lugbug1 said:


> This is a hotly debated topic and one that will probably go on longer than head-fi haha But I've owned them for a while and could clearly hear the difference my friend. They toned down the treble and boosted the lower end a notch., This caused the soundstage to suffer slightly. The 701's changed to match the Q's, not the other way round. The original K702's stayed the same because they are the studio model and remained more neutral.


 
   
   
  Maybe I wasn't very clear. At any given manufacturing point, the K701, K702, and Q701 all sound the same. If you were to take a K701 at initial release in 2006, it would sound different from the K701 that was manufactured in lets say 2012. 
   
  At this point, any currently produced K701 or K702 will sound identical and be produced identically to the Q701.


----------



## LugBug1

Quote: 





elwappo99 said:


> Maybe I wasn't very clear. At any given manufacturing point, the K701, K702, and Q701 all sound the same. If you were to take a K701 at initial release in 2006, it would sound different from the K701 that was manufactured in lets say 2012.
> 
> At this point, any currently produced K701 or K702 will sound identical and be produced identically to the Q701.


 
  The K701's are discontinued. But the last batches had the same tonality as the Q's. The K702's may well have been changed since I had mine (bout 2 year ago) to match the Q's now. But they were not the same when I owned both. 
   
  Also, none of the different models sound "indentical". Different housings and pad material all contribute to subtle, yet clear differences when examined carefully.


----------



## elwappo99

Quote: 





lugbug1 said:


> The K701's are discontinued. But the last batches had the same tonality as the Q's. The K702's may well have been changed since I had mine (bout 2 year ago) to match the Q's now. But they were not the same when I owned both.
> 
> Also, none of the different models sound "indentical". Different housings and pad material all contribute to subtle, yet clear differences when examined carefully.


 
   
  Pad material was always the same. Housings are also the same, unless you wanted to argue the mini xlr housing caused some kind of appreciable changes in sound.


----------



## LugBug1

Quote: 





elwappo99 said:


> Pad material was always the same. Housings are also the same, unless you wanted to argue the mini xlr housing caused some kind of appreciable changes in sound.


 
  No argument  
   
  K701's pads are different. Softer. Grills are different, housings are more luxurious, where as the 702's are more robust and tougher. And yes, having a cable soldered direct to the driver is always better.


----------



## bracko

There are very good appreciation threads for the different x70x headphones by AKG. This kind of discussions maybe more appropriate there.


----------



## BournePerfect

Quote: 





lugbug1 said:


> The M-stage is always my first recommendation for the AKG's. Its a great match.


 
   
  Yep-it's the combo that got me started down this addictive road-and a very fine example of synergy, and great sound at a bargain price! I'd recommend it always as an insane startup rig for anyone starting this hobby.
   
  -Daniel


----------



## Remior

Hi all.
   
  In few days I will recieve my Matrix M Stage (HPA-1)  USB to power my  Senn HD650.
  I think it's a very good amp for beging with and I will use it at first on stock mode and later I will make any modification on the opamps.
   
  This post it's soo huge to read with no time and for that reason I ask if there any particular recomendations to DAC's opamp and amplifier opamp (besides the expensive Opa627).
   
  Thanks to all.
  David.


----------



## GaToMaLaCo

Quote: 





remior said:


> Hi all.
> 
> In few days I will recieve my Matrix M Stage (HPA-1)  USB to power my  Senn HD650.
> I think it's a very good amp for beging with and I will use it at first on stock mode and later I will make any modification on the opamps.
> ...


 
   
   
  LME49720HA or LM4562 would be a good start.


----------



## bracko

gatomalaco said:


> LME49720HA or LM4562 would be a good start.
> 
> +1 for LM4562. It sounds richer, smoother and beter balanced than the stock op amp.


----------



## Lohb

After you add in the cost of a quality DAC and cables to the Matrix M-stage audio chain, I think the Audio-gd 11.32 is a better buy. I just never saw the Audio-gd DAC/amp combo till recently when another member added it to his ortho audio chain. It is a steal.


----------



## GaToMaLaCo

Quote: 





lohb said:


> After you add in the cost of a quality DAC and cables to the Matrix M-stage audio chain, I think the Audio-gd 11.32 is a better buy. I just never saw the Audio-gd DAC/amp combo till recently when another member added it to his ortho audio chain. It is a steal.


 
  But i believe you can't swap opamps right?


----------



## Lohb

Quote: 





gatomalaco said:


> But i believe you can't swap opamps right?


 
  Page quote "[size=x-small]*Fully  discrete analog stages without any OPA"*[/size] (not sure if he means opamp (?)
http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/Headphoneamp/NFB11.32/NFB11.32EN.htm
   
  I think what lets down a lot of these Chinese makers is their brand names can be a bit cheesy/strange and also they don't invest a lot in sleek minimal exterior cases to match the high grade of sound.....A-gd stuff does look a bit 1980's retro which pulls down its image vs the top notch internal design they have.
   
  Only in the higher model DAC/amps can you swap various chips (DAC etc) but jump in price for that luxury.


----------



## GaToMaLaCo

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *MunkyNutz* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Page quote "*Fully  discrete analog stages without any OPA"* (not sure if he means opamp (?)


 
   
  Yup, it does. 
   
  Didn't read that. Thanx for the info.


----------



## Pratt

Currently using this with my new T1 and liking it. Anyone else use this amp to drive T1's?


----------



## techboy

I have a question. Between Matrix M Stage and Asgard 2, which is the better one? Especially as a preamp? Particularly for mids and clean/transparent sound? What are the pros and cons of each against each other? And how do these two compare to Lyr?

Thanks in advance

Aakshey


----------



## derbigpr

Quote: 





pratt said:


> Currently using this with my new T1 and liking it. Anyone else use this amp to drive T1's?


 
   
   
  I don't, but I've been thinking about it. Did you use any other amp with the T1 before M-stage?


----------



## Pratt

Quote: 





derbigpr said:


> I don't, but I've been thinking about it. Did you use any other amp with the T1 before M-stage?


 
   
   
  I just got my T1's yesterday and I've been switching between the Matrix and the Head Direct EF 1.
   
  My problem, so far, with the T1's is their lower mids/mid bass sound too resonant/tubby. The Matrix mostly gets rid of this problem, but the mids aren't as clear, the soundstage not as large, and the instrument separation not as good as with my EF 1. So either amp has its drawbacks imo. I might be upgrading to another solid state, like the Corda Classic, we'll see.


----------



## bracko

Quote: 





pratt said:


> I just got my T1's yesterday and I've been switching between the Matrix and the Head Direct EF 1.
> 
> My problem, so far, with the T1's is their lower mids/mid bass sound too resonant/tubby. The Matrix mostly gets rid of this problem, but *the mids aren't as clear, the soundstage not as large, and the instrument separation not as good as with my EF 1*. So either amp has its drawbacks imo. I might be upgrading to another solid state, like the Corda Classic, we'll see.


 
   
  A simple change of the OP amp could cure that problem.


----------



## elwappo99

Quote: 





pratt said:


> I just got my T1's yesterday and I've been switching between the Matrix and the Head Direct EF 1.
> 
> My problem, so far, with the T1's is their lower mids/mid bass sound too resonant/tubby. The Matrix mostly gets rid of this problem, but the mids aren't as clear, the soundstage not as large, and the instrument separation not as good as with my EF 1. So either amp has its drawbacks imo. I might be upgrading to another solid state, like the Corda Classic, we'll see.


 
   
  I think the Matrix is probably giving you a slightly more true sound with the T1s. The T1, IMO doesn't have a huge SS, and the mid range in definitely withdrawn a bit.


----------



## Pratt

Quote: 





bracko said:


> A simple change of the OP amp could cure that problem.


 
   
  I don't think so, the physics is not there to support that rolling opamps alters sound in any discernible empirical way and physics is definitive (or at least not to be overturned by mere flawed human perception which sometimes makes us think the laws of physics somehow don't apply in certain instances, usually those that conform to our wishes/desires, when they hold constant in all others) while our very fallible human perception, especially heavily biased by the well documented effects of the cognitive distortions resulting from expectation, is not. Blind tested (as I have been with opamp swaps on some gear with other people) and no one can discern stock opamps from "improved" ones. So the Matrix sounds as it sounds and can not be improved. And it's not a bad amp, it's just the T1's really bring out its flaws imo.
   
  And since I have no desire to discuss this I'll take my leave now and simply say I'm happy whenever anyone enjoys gear for whatever reason even if that reason has no actual basis in reality apart from our all-too-human perception.


----------



## Alexein Aner

How much of an upgrade would the Schiit Lyr be over the Matrix M-Stage? I'm considering pairing one w/ Schiit's Bifrost for the LCD-2.


----------



## bracko

Quote: 





pratt said:


> I don't think so, the physics is not there to support that rolling opamps alters sound in any discernible empirical way and physics is definitive (or at least not to be overturned by mere flawed human perception which sometimes makes us think the laws of physics somehow don't apply in certain instances, usually those that conform to our wishes/desires, when they hold constant in all others) while our very fallible human perception, especially heavily biased by the well documented effects of the cognitive distortions resulting from expectation, is not. Blind tested (as I have been with opamp swaps on some gear with other people) and no one can discern stock opamps from "improved" ones. So the Matrix sounds as it sounds and can not be improved. And it's not a bad amp, it's just the T1's really bring out its flaws imo.
> 
> And since I have no desire to discuss this I'll take my leave now and simply say I'm happy whenever anyone enjoys gear for whatever reason even if that reason has no actual basis in reality apart from our all-too-human perception.


 
  I beleive in ABx tests. I have done ABx comparisions of two M-Stage amplifiers before and after changing OP amp in one of them (to [size=small]LM4562NA).[/size] I could pick out the one with [size=small]LM4562NA in 90% of cases. Two other people who were present during the test achieved similar result. The difference was not huge but it was certainly there and not at the level of chance. [/size][size=small]The amplifiers sounded exactly the same before changing OP in one of them. [/size][size=small]I love physics but I also love other scientific approaches. They shouldn't be neglected. [/size]


----------



## techboy

Quote: 





alexein aner said:


> How much of an upgrade would the Schiit Lyr be over the Matrix M-Stage? I'm considering pairing one w/ Schiit's Bifrost for the LCD-2.


 
  I would also like to know this.


----------



## WEeziel

Has anyone used the Muses 01/02 opamp with M-Stage? Would be interesting to hear if eithere one is worth the try.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





gatomalaco said:


> LME49720HA or LM4562 would be a good start.


 
   
  Another vote for the LM4562 here!


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





bracko said:


> A simple change of the OP amp could cure that problem.


 
   
  I've rolled a few Op Amps into the M Stage, it always sounds like a Matrix M Stage.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





pratt said:


> I don't think so, the physics is not there to support that rolling opamps alters sound in any discernible empirical way and physics is definitive (or at least not to be overturned by mere flawed human perception which sometimes makes us think the laws of physics somehow don't apply in certain instances, usually those that conform to our wishes/desires, when they hold constant in all others) while our very fallible human perception, especially heavily biased by the well documented effects of the cognitive distortions resulting from expectation, is not. Blind tested (as I have been with opamp swaps on some gear with other people) and no one can discern stock opamps from "improved" ones. So the Matrix sounds as it sounds and can not be improved. And it's not a bad amp, it's just the T1's really bring out its flaws imo.
> 
> And since I have no desire to discuss this I'll take my leave now and simply say I'm happy whenever anyone enjoys gear for whatever reason even if that reason has no actual basis in reality apart from our all-too-human perception.


 
   
  I think you'll enjoy The Sound Science Forum!


----------



## bracko

Quote: 





chris j said:


> I've rolled a few Op Amps into the M Stage, it always sounds like a Matrix M Stage.


 
  Of course it sounds like Matrix M-Stage but it is possible to hear some differences in sound in spite of that. The sound is clearer and more focused and there is more air in the upper registers with [size=small]LM4562NA[/size]. The difference is by no means drastic but it's there. The Matrix M-Stage is still Matrix M-Stage no matter what 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Of course this may be a topic for Sound Science.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





bracko said:


> Of course it sounds like Matrix M-Stage but it is possible to hear some differences in sound in spite of that. The sound is clearer and more focused and there is more air in the upper registers with [size=small]LM4562NA[/size]. The difference is by no means drastic but it's there. The Matrix M-Stage is still Matrix M-Stage no matter what
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Just to clarify, in my opinion, the Matrix M Stage does sound better with an LM4562. Just don't expect a miracle, folks.
   
  BTW, I agree with your impressions, very well said!  Thanks! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Keep me away from the Science Fiction Forum............................


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Just to clarify, in my opinion, the Matrix M Stage does sound better with an LM4562. Just don't expect a miracle, folks.
> 
> BTW, I agree with your impressions, very well said!  Thanks!
> 
> ...


 
  Ok comparision for the LM 4562 and the LME49990, getting tired of hearing how great the LME4562 is xD
   
  Non the less with my LME 49990, the Matrix Sounds great, HECK it sounded wonderful with my Dt 990s [and I'm suprised how much depth and warmth it brings to Adelles voice!] My Cheap crappy Millet Hybrid Tube with RCA Clear Tops [which have amazing treble mind u] still sounds better with Vocals, but the Treble on the Matrix is better, and the bass tighter [still like that cheap tube, although when it gets replaced very soon... the Matrix will still b my Solid State <3]
   
  Non the less, the Matrix Gives that cheapo thing a run for it's money not to mention DUAL inputs, wonderfull for some one with a Pc and a Wii u hooked up to the Same Monitor.
   
  Still the Matrix Always suprises me, again it gave my Dt 880s a really nice Lower End, the tightness and lean quality of the Op amp did wonders for the 880s some what dull low end [and I don't use Software EQs either]
   
  ^^ plus it's a cool looking amp [maybe this isn't a good idea] but I have mine sitting on it's side. So again I appreciate how easy it is to use in that state, nice and slime, doesn't take up to much space on my desk and it keeps pretty cool. [I really do like this amp <3] and I like the different gain features! My Nintendo DS lacks power and bo o boi, the M Matrix juices it up nicely xD


----------



## WEeziel

Quote: 





weeziel said:


> Has anyone used the Muses 01/02 opamp with M-Stage? Would be interesting to hear if eithere one is worth the try.


 
  Also, I reckon that I need 2 pieces of the muses 01? If so, will the tam audio Class A biasing mod adapter work, or could the resistors damage the chips?


----------



## Chodi

Quote: 





pratt said:


> Currently using this with my new T1 and liking it. Anyone else use this amp to drive T1's?


 
  I came very close to ordering one of these to try with my T1's but I've just not been able to convince myself it was worth the effort. I have a tube amp that works great with the T1's but it is out of commission waiting for repair so I thought about this. Just not enough positive comments on the combination to get me to pull the trigger. Seems it works better with the HD800. I am looking for a ss amp for my T1's but I expect I will have to look for something much more expensive to really do justice to the T1's. Nothing I have read really convinced me to make the purchase.No way for me to hear this combo before buying. I had the Audio gd C2.2 and it was really great with the T1's but I sold it some time ago. Now with my tube amp on the blink I regret selling it. I doubt the M stage would be the equal of that agd C2.2 which was really an outstanding ss amp.


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





chodi said:


> I came very close to ordering one of these to try with my T1's but I've just not been able to convince myself it was worth the effort. I have a tube amp that works great with the T1's but it is out of commission waiting for repair so I thought about this. Just not enough positive comments on the combination to get me to pull the trigger. Seems it works better with the HD800. I am looking for a ss amp for my T1's but I expect I will have to look for something much more expensive to really do justice to the T1's. Nothing I have read really convinced me to make the purchase.No way for me to hear this combo before buying. I had the Audio gd C2.2 and it was really great with the T1's but I sold it some time ago. Now with my tube amp on the blink I regret selling it. I doubt the M stage would be the equal of that agd C2.2 which was really an outstanding ss amp.


 
  You know I will say I REALLY liked the Matrix with my Dt 880 250 ohm, so it might be powerful enough to drive the T1 as well, it gave my Dt 880s lack luster Bottom end a nice Tight Warmth to it, really pleasent!


----------



## Chris J

alexein aner said:


> How much of an upgrade would the Schiit Lyr be over the Matrix M-Stage? I'm considering pairing one w/ Schiit's Bifrost for the LCD-2.




I can't really answer your question, but obviously you can roll different tubes into the Lyr to change it's sound a bit.
I think rolling tubes has a greater effect on an amp than rolling Op Amps in the M Stage.

Good luck with whatever you choose to do!


----------



## nickwin

I noticed there has been a lot of talk about op amps lately, specifically the lm4562, so I thought I would share my my thoughts on these.  I bought my m stage from Tam Audio about a year ago with the class A bias opa627 mod pre installed.  I was pretty happy with it, but it was very colored compared to what I was used to, even with my k701s which tend to do well with a little coloration.  That being said with the class A opa627 had some almost tubey warmth in the lower mids and a laid back treble that was really enjoyable with certain music.
   
  A couple months ago I bought a pair of Mr Speaker Mad Dogs to complement my k701s, and with the Mad Dogs the coloration with the opa627 mod was even more noticeable, and I found with those headphones the mid bass had to much emphases for my taste.  I switched to the lm4562 about a week ago and have been really enjoying it with both of my headphones.  The first thing I noticed right off the bat was the lm4562 had significantly more treble energy.  I know others say these differences are subtle, but for me they were quite noticeable.  Sure it still sounds like an m stage but as far as I'm concerned the m stage with lm4562 has a totally different tonal balance.  I find the lm4562 very neutral compared to the opa627 which was warm and laid back.  The tonal balance with the lm4562 is very similar to the O2 but it still retains the fullness and great dynamics that I liked with the m stage opa627 combo.  I also find that I can detect differences between different DACs more easily with the lm4562, probably because of the neutrality.  Whereas with the opa627 every DAC sounded like the m stage, warm and laid back.  Anyways, I'm very happy with the "downgrade" to lm4562.  If you are looking for neutrality I highly suggest giving it a try.
   
  On a side note, my class A bias opa627 is for sale on ebay right now if anyone is looking for one.


----------



## Makiah S

Very nice, my LME 49990 has a simmilar sound, it's not Mid light but it has really WONDERFUL Treble. It smooths out and wonderfully extends the treble of BOTH my Dt 990 and my w1000x, both of which are bright cans that can be a little "OMG POP" light cheap 80's POP music bright... not harsh sibilant but both cans [espically the w1000x, Drum n Bass snares are a little too energetic some times] Non the less, the Matrix with the LME 49990 really removes this issue. The Treble get's much better extension. Good bright quality and a little more air! Still I'd like to try the LM4562 although have poor eltrical skills [mine came preinstalled with the lme 49990 thanks to buying a used amp <3 [not to mention mine has an Modded Knob as well <3 <3] 
   
  So yea I really like the op I have, but I wonder how much it's like the one you guys keep mentioning!


----------



## nickwin

mshenay said:


> Very nice, my LME 49990 has a simmilar sound, it's not Mid light but it has really WONDERFUL Treble. It smooths out and wonderfully extends the treble of BOTH my Dt 990 and my w1000x, both of which are bright cans that can be a little "OMG POP" light cheap 80's POP music bright... not harsh sibilant but both cans [espically the w1000x, Drum n Bass snares are a little too energetic some times] Non the less, the Matrix with the LME 49990 really removes this issue. The Treble get's much better extension. Good bright quality and a little more air! Still I'd like to try the LM4562 although have poor eltrical skills [mine came preinstalled with the lme 49990 thanks to buying a used amp <3 [not to mention mine has an Modded Knob as well <3 <3]
> 
> So yea I really like the op I have, but I wonder how much it's like the one you guys keep mentioning!




I can't comment on the 49990 but I can say that a simple opamp swap is extremely easy. I was a little concerned but all it takes is a screw driver to remove the top of the m stage and then you just pull out the old one and stick in th new one. No soldering required. For the couple dollars these things cost it's worth a try.


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





nickwin said:


> I can't comment on the 49990 but I can say that a simple opamp swap is extremely easy. I was a little concerned but all it takes is a screw driver to remove the top of the m stage and then you just pull out the old one and stick in th new one. No soldering required. For the couple dollars these things cost it's worth a try.


 
  True


----------



## Change is Good

M-Stage owner here with LM4562 opamp... also very pleased with how it pairs with my Annies and MDs.


----------



## Lohb

Was previously going to buy M-stage, but I will say after pulling out a bass slanted but muddy mids opamp from my altoid and swapping in a new LM4562 , the difference in mid-separation and treble detail has been great so I'm also a LM4562 fan as well.
  I made sure I got mine from a reputable seller vs getting a dire knock-off from China/Hong Kong being passed off as a LM4562 ruining my entire audio chain.


----------



## bracko

Quote: 





lohb said:


> Was previously going to buy M-stage, but I will say after pulling out a bass slanted but muddy mids opamp from my altoid and swapping in a new LM4562 , the difference in mid-separation and treble detail has been great so I'm also a LM4562 fan as well.
> *I made sure I got mine from a reputable seller* vs getting a dire knock-off from China/Hong Kong being passed off as a LM4562 ruining my entire audio chain.


 
   
  The best would be to order a free op directly from Texas Instruments.


----------



## techboy

Has anybody tried both Asgard 2 and Matrix M Stage?
   
  Which is:
   
  1. Faster and with better PRAT
   
  2. Cleaner and clearer?
   
  3. Crisper and sharper?
   
  4. With more forward mids?
   
  Can somebody please help?
   
  Aakshey


----------



## Change is Good

^ I, too, would like t know this. Add difference in soundstage to that list...


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





techboy said:


> Has anybody tried both Asgard 2 and Matrix M Stage?
> 
> Which is:
> 
> ...


 
   
  Quote: 





change is good said:


> ^ I, too, would like t know this. Add difference in soundstage to that list...


 
  +1, I want to know that as well


----------



## DaemonSire

Where is the best place to pick up a LM4562?  I'm curious to try it out as well.
   
  I saw this seller on ebay:  http://www.ebay.ca/itm/LM4562-Dual-HiFi-Audio-OpAmp-AUTHENTIC-LM4562NA-DIP-8-/160496917340
   
  Seems legit and has good feedback.
   
  It would be $3.75 + 3 shipping.  Is $7 a good deal with shipping for this opamp?  Any better places or options?
   
  Thanks


----------



## bracko

Quote: 





daemonsire said:


> Where is the best place to pick up a LM4562?  I'm curious to try it out as well.
> 
> I saw this seller on ebay:  http://www.ebay.ca/itm/LM4562-Dual-HiFi-Audio-OpAmp-AUTHENTIC-LM4562NA-DIP-8-/160496917340
> 
> ...


 
   
  You can order a free sample here: http://www.ti.com/product/lm4562


----------



## WEeziel

Ordered mine from a seller called* "nooelec" *from ebay*.* They stated it's a legit one. I sure hope so. Also getting a Muses 01.
   
  Edit: I ordered from that seller. Didn't notice you had posted a link lol.
   
  I sure hope the Muses01 is atleast authentic if anything.


----------



## blueangel2323

Quote: 





bracko said:


> You can order a free sample here: http://www.ti.com/product/lm4562


 
  What's the difference between the 4 versions? (Only 2 have free samples). And is this one of those types where you need 2 + an adaptor? I've never swapped opamps before.


----------



## WEeziel

To my understanding, if it's in dual, you only need one. Swapping opamps is very easy though.


----------



## blueangel2323

So the NA version is the dual? What are the other three? That TI website is so technical, I don't understand a word of it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  EDIT: Actually, I just read that the LM4562 is dual-only. So I still don't understand the difference between HA, MA, MAX, and NA


----------



## WEeziel

I suppose it is. I ordered the LM4562NA which is DUAL according the ebay listing.


----------



## bracko

It is NA version you should order. That package type fits into the Matrix amp. It is also a dual amp, compatible with the stock one.


----------



## blueangel2323

Quote: 





bracko said:


> It is NA version you should order. That package type fits into the Matrix amp. It is also a dual amp, compatible with the stock one.


 
  Thanks! So the other versions are like different "sockets?"


----------



## bracko

blueangel2323 said:


> Thanks! So the other versions are like different "sockets?"




Correct.


----------



## Remior

Arrived today and I'm enjoying it...


----------



## techboy

Dave of Headfonia feels that the $60 Cmoy has better mids than Asgard 2 and Matrix M Stage. I want to ask if others believe this to be true 
  
 http://www.headfonia.com/matrix-m-stage/
  
 He feels that Cmoy has better mids and that A2 mids are congested.
  
 Can others share light on this?


----------



## elwappo99

Quote: 





techboy said:


> Dave of Headfonia feels that the $60 Cmoy has better mids than Asgard 2 and Matrix M Stage. I want to ask if others believe this to be true
> 
> http://www.headfonia.com/matrix-m-stage/
> 
> ...


 
   
  Easy explanation. Never, ever ever ever never ever never ever ever trust headphonia reviews. They are incredibly inaccurate and the writers are often very misinformed. 
   
  A prize example:
http://www.headfonia.com/dual-denons-ah-d600-d7100/


----------



## techboy

But if he has tested both then why would be advise wrongly?


----------



## blueangel2323

elwappo99 said:


> Easy explanation. Never, ever ever ever never ever never ever ever trust headphonia reviews. They are incredibly inaccurate and the writers are often very misinformed.
> 
> A prize example:
> http://www.headfonia.com/dual-denons-ah-d600-d7100/



 
 It's true that I disagree with some of their reviews, but I don't see what's wrong with the example you give. I haven't heard the D7100 but the D600 is indeed a great-sounding headphone, regardless of measurements.


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





techboy said:


> Dave of Headfonia feels that the $60 Cmoy has better mids than Asgard 2 and Matrix M Stage. I want to ask if others believe this to be true
> 
> http://www.headfonia.com/matrix-m-stage/
> 
> ...


 
  Not at all true, and then again there are MANY different kinds of cMoy out there and by the same respects a few different kinds of opamps to roll into the Matrix which make it sound even better


----------



## blueangel2323

It's no secret that Mike from Headfonia likes warm, coloured mids. I don't think he's ever liked anything that was neutral and transparent. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, but he's definitely in the minority among audiophiles.


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





blueangel2323 said:


> It's no secret that Mike from Headfonia likes warm, coloured mids. I don't think he's ever liked anything that was neutral and transparent. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, but he's definitely in the minority among audiophiles.


 
  agree'd the cMoy I had, well it had thick mids. Where as the Matreix with an Lme49990 does not... very nuetral and clean mids I say/


----------



## Remior

I have just ordered this to TamAudio:
   

   
   

   
  I hope it deserves the price.... maybe NwAvguy has reason and i'm wasting my money... i will see. I have the idea to make test&proves and change stock opamps on DAC secction and Amp secction.


----------



## blueangel2323

I just swapped the stock opamp for the free LM4562 sample that I received from TI. To my ears, the first thing I noticed was that the LM4562 makes the treble more delicate. Thinner, sharper, and more defined. Actually, a better word would be crisper. It sounds very crisp. The stock opamp sounded more "diffuse" and "atmosheric" in the treble. It's a bit analogous to tighter, faster bass with sharp impact, as opposed to fatter, more resonant bass with duller impact. Except... in the treble. Sorry if I'm not expressing myself very clearly; sound is hard to describe


----------



## Chris J

blueangel2323 said:


> I just swapped the stock opamp for the free LM4562 sample that I received from TI. To my ears, the first thing I noticed was that the LM4562 makes the treble more delicate. Thinner, sharper, and more defined. Actually, a better word would be crisper. It sounds very crisp. The stock opamp sounded more "diffuse" and "atmosheric" in the treble. It's a bit analogous to tighter, faster bass with sharp impact, as opposed to fatter, more resonant bass with duller impact. Except... in the treble. Sorry if I'm not expressing myself very clearly; sound is hard to describe




I fully agree with your description of the LM4562.
And I know what you mean, sound is hard to describe, I'm terrible when it comes to describing sound too!


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





blueangel2323 said:


> I just swapped the stock opamp for the free LM4562 sample that I received from TI. To my ears, the first thing I noticed was that the LM4562 makes the treble more delicate. Thinner, sharper, and more defined. Actually, a better word would be crisper. It sounds very crisp. The stock opamp sounded more "diffuse" and "atmosheric" in the treble. It's a bit analogous to tighter, faster bass with sharp impact, as opposed to fatter, more resonant bass with duller impact. Except... in the treble. Sorry if I'm not expressing myself very clearly; sound is hard to describe


 
  On the positive I have to say my LMe 49990 has the same effect on treble as well. One of the things I like about the M Stage is, over my Clear Top Tube [which is warm] the M Stage has much sharper and well defined and treble. It makes the w1000x almost as nice as the Dt 880 [although my w1000x is modded so it's about 25% leaner than stock imo]


----------



## WEeziel

Got my Muses 01 yesterday. After I changed it and started listening to some songs, something happend. Something good. I like this more than the Class A biasing mod. I'm not sure how to express this yet, but I'm enjoying it quite much right now. I can't complain.


----------



## ShrikeT

So I just ordered an M-Stage with the OPA672AP biasing mod from Tam to use with my Q701s. This is my first standalone headphone amp, had been running them off an Audioengine D1 prior to this for a little over a year.. What difference should I expect in the sound with the amp vs the D1 alone? Also, is there a good way to test the thing once I get it to verify it's working as it should? Thanks.


----------



## blueangel2323

I've never heard the D1, but the answer to both your questions is: use your ears! It's best not to be biased by expectations based on what other people say. Discover the difference in sound yourself - it's more exciting that way. If it sounds as good or better than your current set up, it's working properly. If it sounds worse, something's probably wrong


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





blueangel2323 said:


> I've never heard the D1, but the answer to both your questions is: use your ears! It's best not to be biased by expectations based on what other people say. Discover the difference in sound yourself - it's more exciting that way. If it sounds as good or better than your current set up, it's working properly. If it sounds worse, something's probably wrong


 
  Indeed, your ears are your best friend. Speaking of which... WOW. With the Lme49990 the Matrix has some most epic detail retrival! I'm noticing things I didn't before... like stereo sound... really stands out [and yes it's the song not the amp lol] I like that! Listening to my favorite DnB and wow I'm hearing little ticks and noises that I never noticed, that really do add to the song! This amp really makes my Modded w1000x a serious refrance can imo! Not even the Dt 990 brings out details as well [mostly due to all that BASS] 
   
  Wow this amp just captured the rich deep mids of Adele's voice. Granted you have to listen a little more closely to feel her voice but it's there! My hybrid tube still sounds warmer, but this LME 49990 is no cold shoulder!


----------



## WEeziel

I'm personally enjoying my Muses 01 much more than the Class A biasing opa 627 mod. More detail, and I think the treble is more detailed and some songs dont sound like mashed potatoes anymore, bass is more controlled but gives more punch when needed and it is a bit more detailed too. Overall, much better. Then again, it cost me around 70 bucks (~50 Euros). Still waiting for the LM4562 to arrive so I can compare. The LME49990 sounds like something I should still try. However, I can gladly recommend the Muses 01 to anyone. Rather supprised if anyone else hasn't tested out the Muses 01 with Matrix M-Stage.


----------



## bracko

Could you please tell us where you bought Muses01 and LME49990 amplifiers? I found a couple of Muses01 on ebay but I think it is somewhat risky to order from Hong Kong.


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





weeziel said:


> I'm personally enjoying my Muses 01 much more than the Class A biasing opa 627 mod. More detail, and I think the treble is more detailed and some songs dont sound like mashed potatoes anymore, bass is more controlled but gives more punch when needed and it is a bit more detailed too. Overall, much better. Then again, it cost me around 70 bucks (~50 Euros). Still waiting for the LM4562 to arrive so I can compare. The LME49990 sounds like something I should still try. However, I can gladly recommend the Muses 01 to anyone. Rather supprised if anyone else hasn't tested out the Muses 01 with Matrix M-Stage.


 
  I also have a LME49720HA, any one compare this with a LM4562? My orignal buyer told me the LME49720HA was too lean for him. That the LME49990 had a little less treble energy, but was the quickest over all out of the LME49720HA and the Stock 
   
  Either way it sound great, and I'm starting to hear the warmth in the LME49990 as I use it more with my w1000x.


----------



## WEeziel

I ordered the Muses01 from Amazon from cpm accessories as they were located in the states, thus I thought they would legit muses01. Turns out they shipped it from China, so I'm not sure how legit my one actually is. Then again, the legit ones are made in taiwan to my understanding, so who knows. It looked quite legit and cost the same as a legit one so Id expect it to be a legit one. I haven't ordered the LME49990, but I have a LM4562NA coming from ebay from "nooelec".


----------



## Chodi

Quote: 





weeziel said:


> I ordered the Muses01 from Amazon from cpm accessories as they were located in the states, thus I thought they would legit muses01. Turns out they shipped it from China, so I'm not sure how legit my one actually is. Then again, the legit ones are made in taiwan to my understanding, so who knows. It looked quite legit and cost the same as a legit one so Id expect it to be a legit one. I haven't ordered the LME49990, but I have a LM4562NA coming from ebay from "nooelec".


 
  The prices on the Muses 01's are all over the board on Ebay. Seems to me the variation in pricing makes no sense. I have held off on getting this amp because there are so many copy opamps out there who knows what you are getting. Even "trusted sellers" can't really be completely trusted since there are so many copy parts out there they may not know if they are real. I asked Tam if their Burr Browns  were real and he replied "look at the picture". Not completely reassuring.


----------



## blueangel2323

chodi said:


> The prices on the Muses 01's are all over the board on Ebay. Seems to me the variation in pricing makes no sense. I have held off on getting this amp because there are so many copy opamps out there who knows what you are getting. Even "trusted sellers" can't really be completely trusted since there are so many copy parts out there they may not know if they are real. I asked Tam if their Burr Browns  were real and he replied "look at the picture". Not completely reassuring.


I'm not sure that holding off on an amp just because you're unsure about opamps is really logical. With the amp itself you know exactly what you're getting - an excellent sounding amp even with the stock opamp. It's not an absolute necessity to replace it.


----------



## bracko

blueangel2323 said:


> I'm not sure that holding off on an amp just because you're unsure about opamps is really logical. With the amp itself you know exactly what you're getting - an excellent sounding amp even with the stock opamp. It's not an absolute necessity to replace it.




Absolutely agreed on this.


----------



## Chodi

Quote: 





bracko said:


> Absolutely agreed on this.


 
  You're right...I'm a coward. I got stung with an amp from another Chinese company that broke and I learned the meaning of "no customer service". I'm still trying to get that tube amp fixed. I was looking at the M Stage as a backup amp so I would not get caught without a headphone amp again. Read most of this thread about the M Stage and got real close to committing. I just bought a WA2 to replace the broken tube amp. Now you've shamed me into getting off my butt and ordering the M Stage as my backup. Thought it would be nice to change off to solid state sometimes just for a change of pace. I am going to use these mostly with my T1's. I will check back after I get it and let you know how they pair. I haven't had a solid state amp in some time since i sold my Audio gd C2.2 (That was a great amp sorry I sold it).


----------



## bracko

Quote: 





chodi said:


> You're right...I'm a coward. I got stung with an amp from another Chinese company that broke and I learned the meaning of "no customer service". I'm still trying to get that tube amp fixed. I was looking at the M Stage as a backup amp so I would not get caught without a headphone amp again. Read most of this thread about the M Stage and got real close to committing. I just bought a WA2 to replace the broken tube amp. Now you've shamed me into getting off my butt and ordering the M Stage as my backup. Thought it would be nice to change off to solid state sometimes just for a change of pace. I am going to use these mostly with my T1's. I will check back after I get it and let you know how they pair. I haven't had a solid state amp in some time since i sold my Audio gd C2.2 (That was a great amp sorry I sold it).


 
  I understand you fully. I had similar concerns before buying my M-Stage. A reassuring fact is that these amplifiers seem to be very well made and don't break so easily. I have yet to find a report with a malfunctioning M-Stage.


----------



## Chodi

So I just ordered and paid for a Matrix M Stage from Tam with the class A mod installed. I just wanted to let you know that I was surprised to find that today he was offering a 10% discount on the order with free ems shipping. I was very pleasantly surprised  by the discount. I don't know if that is because I wrote him that I am active on Head-Fi or he is offering that discount to everyone but it made this very very cheap. I will report back after I receive my amp. Frankly, I don't know how he can do that class A mod for that price when the op amps alone from my local parts house cost more than $30. Maybe he has a source for recycled op amps, but if they work that's fine with me.


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





bracko said:


> I understand you fully. I had similar concerns before buying my M-Stage. A reassuring fact is that these amplifiers seem to be very well made and don't break so easily. I have yet to find a report with a malfunctioning M-Stage.


 
  Agree'd I felt the same way as well, I was lucky enough to find a buyer who had already bought some OP amps and replaced the Volume Knob, that combined with almost 100% positive reviews [except for a few nut jobs] convinced me to buy it... and it was a TOTALLY spur of the moment for me... and I am very glad I took that risk!


----------



## AudioAlex

Quote: 





fuzzybaffy said:


> Oh my... I always thought the idea that a headphone's sound would change by adjusting the gain on the amp was balony, but... just now I was feeling a little dissatisfied with my HD-650's bass output, and when I realized the gain was at the 10db level, I kicked it up a couple of notches to the 20db level, and the bass all of a sudden opened up.
> 
> Am I imagining things? I must admit I'm adjusting the volume by hand to level the volumes when comparing different gain levels. But the difference definitely seems there (and that's why I'm asking here just to confirm!).
> 
> It's not like the bass got an immediate bump, as if I was EQing them, but, the bass just seems little more forward, and seems like a more "there". Does anyone share similar experiences? Observations?


 
   
  I just did the same with my HE-500 and I can feel an overall improvement in sound quality.. I feel that it's not only the bass that changed, the sound stage seems to have improved as well.. I wish I did it earlier )


----------



## Chris J

chodi said:


> So I just ordered and paid for a Matrix M Stage from Tam with the class A mod installed. I just wanted to let you know that I was surprised to find that today he was offering a 10% discount on the order with free ems shipping. I was very pleasantly surprised  by the discount. I don't know if that is because I wrote him that I am active on Head-Fi or he is offering that discount to everyone but it made this very very cheap. I will report back after I receive my amp. Frankly, I don't know how he can do that class A mod for that price when the op amps alone from my local parts house cost more than $30. Maybe he has a source for recycled op amps, but if they work that's fine with me.




I know what you mean.
I too am very suspicious of the OP637 source......the TAM Audio price just looks way too low!


----------



## Chodi

Quote: 





chris j said:


> I know what you mean.
> I too am very suspicious of the OP637 source......the TAM Audio price just looks way too low!


 
  My understanding is that the op amps come on a brown dog adapter so perhaps  I can order some different op amps from the local RS supply house which are known to be genuine and try changing them out. If they are in sockets that would be no sweat. I am not sure how that will effect the resistor mod on there for class A. Do different op amps require different resistor mods? Perhaps someone could advise about that?


----------



## WEeziel

Quick question. I have my setup as follows: Xonar DG -> NFB-3.33 -> Matrix M-Stage -> DT-990 Pros. Should I have the audi channels set to 2 or 4 in the xonar panel? As there is some difference, but not sure what I should use.


----------



## blueangel2323

I noticed that the bigger knobs that people are getting on eBay seem to come in sets of two, and I definitely don't need two. If someone else bought two and is only using one of them, I wouldn't mind buying the other one off you. Please PM me


----------



## Remior

Quote: 





audioalex said:


> I just did the same with my HE-500 and I can feel an overall improvement in sound quality.. I feel that it's not only the bass that changed, the sound stage seems to have improved as well.. I wish I did it earlier )


 
   
  +1
   
  I change it from +10db to +18db and I's impressive how well sound it now at the same volume I had it before but with new gain setting.
   
  Bass more present and with more body, sound stage and scene more defined and highs more controled.
   
  Now I'm just like: OMG!!


----------



## blueangel2323

Interesting. I've never even tried +18 or +20, I've always had it at +10 and it's more than loud enough with the volume pot at less than halfway. +10 does sound better than 0 though. I'll have to try +18, I'm just concerned about whether or not I'll have enough fine control over the volume.


----------



## bracko

Quote: 





remior said:


> +1
> 
> I change it from +10db to +18db and I's impressive how well sound it now at the *same volume* I had it before but with new gain setting.
> 
> ...


 
  Interesting. I don't want to be picky but is it same volume knob position or same sound level (in dB)?


----------



## Change is Good

blueangel2323 said:


> Interesting. I've never even tried +18 or +20, I've always had it at +10 and it's more than loud enough with the volume pot at less than halfway. +10 does sound better than 0 though. I'll have to try +18, I'm just concerned about whether or not I'll have enough fine control over the volume.




The bigger volume knob will defenitely improve volume control on higher gains


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





change is good said:


> The bigger volume knob will defenitely improve volume control on higher gains


 
  Indeed, my Dt 880s sounded lovely at +18, and ironically my st 990s sound sufficently the same at +10 and +18 [actually that is not correct] wow the bass get's more detailed and controlled at +18. It's a little tighter and has better visceral dynamics 
   
  I'm curious as to how the w1000x might sound at +10, although that's way more volume that it needs... I mean the pot is at around 7 o clock maybe 8 and that's plenty loud for me on the dt 990, and I can increases ever so slighty with the bigger [sexy'r] knob
   
  Yea no, the w1000x requires 0 gain, as any increase in gain brings the noise floor about an inch from my ears -.-


----------



## blueangel2323

Very interesting... I've been switching back and forth between +10 and +18 (it's kind of a pain, having to flip 4 switches on the bottom of the unit; I wish they could've put a single gain switch on the front, just like the input selector) and they definitely sound different. The sound is a lot fuller and weightier on +18, in more ways than one.  
 Firstly, bass is increased by a fair amount. There seems to be added warmth and depth as well. Main vocals sound fuller and chestier. Background singers sound like they're actually singing in full voice, whereas on +10 it sounds more like they're whispering.
  
 Secondly, soundstage is a lot more full and layered, though not bigger per se. In fact, possibly due to the weightier sound, everything sounds more upfront and immediate. On +10 the soundstage was flat - like there's a giant wall of speakers 15 feet away, playing at you. They are a fair distance away from you, but everything is the same distance away. On +18 there is a lot more layering and depth to the soundstage. It's like you're listening to a live band with the lead singer in front of you, just a few feet away, guitars on either side of you, some instruments right behind the vocalist, other instruments much further back, background singers right behind you. In some ways it's more intimate, but more 3D and immersive.
  
 I don't know if +18 sounds "better" than +10 in an absolute sense, but they are different. +10 has a light, airy, laid back sound. +18 is very engaging, dynamic and immersive. Are you actually "listening" to music, or just playing music in the background while you're working or relaxing? +18 is great for the former but +10 is better suited to the latter.
  
 It's not all positive, however. While the amp is completely silent at 0 and +10 (although it does amplify any noise that's in the system if you turn up the volume), there is a very noticeable hiss at +18 and +20. The hiss is there regardless of volume, although it does increase somewhat if you turn up the volume. Not sure if this is due to the LM4652 or the amp design itself. It's too much work to open the thing up and swap in the stock opamp to test.
  
 Also, there seems to be less clarity and more grain on the +18 setting.


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





blueangel2323 said:


> Very interesting... I've been switching back and forth between +10 and +18 (it's kind of a pain, having to flip 4 switches on the bottom of the unit; I wish they could've put a single gain switch on the front, just like the input selector) and they definitely sound different. The sound is a lot fuller and weightier on +18, in more ways than one.
> Firstly, bass is increased by a fair amount. There seems to be added warmth and depth as well. Main vocals sound fuller and chestier. Background singers sound like they're actually singing in full voice, whereas on +10 it sounds more like they're whispering.
> 
> Secondly, soundstage is a lot more full and layered, though not bigger per se. In fact, possibly due to the weightier sound, everything sounds more upfront and immediate. On +10 the soundstage was flat - like there's a giant wall of speakers 15 feet away, playing at you. They are a fair distance away from you, but everything is the same distance away. On +18 there is a lot more layering and depth to the soundstage. It's like you're listening to a live band with the lead singer in front of you, just a few feet away, guitars on either side of you, some instruments right behind the vocalist, other instruments much further back, background singers right behind you. In some ways it's more intimate, but more 3D and immersive.
> ...


 
  Ofc, the higher you increase the gain, the more you raise the Noise Floor. Some Headphones will... make it OBVIOUS. My w1000x get gawd awfully noisy at ANYTHING higher than 0, where as the Dt 990 barely pick up any of that noise at +18, also for me +20 seems like... a Mix of 10 and 18, on the dt 990 +20 sounds like a loud +10, where as [as you mentioned] +18 really is much more dynamic. Which to me is a good thing, even as I'm typing I still like to hear the dyanmics in the music. It's nice to stop for a second and just appreciate your music then get back to work.


----------



## Remior

Quote: 





bracko said:


> Interesting. I don't want to be picky but is it same volume knob position or same sound level (in dB)?


 
   
  At same sound level. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  I thnink there are more present hiss and maybe distortion too but a good playing volume levels my ears can't notice that (i'm not a golden ears), only at very high volume levels I will never listen it.
   
  But I like it much more at +18 than +10 gain.
   
  The more noticed improvements happens in my HD668B not in the HD650 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




!! On the Sennheiser the changes are less perceptible than on my Superlux 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ... it sounds way better than before.


----------



## Makiah S

Indeed it is a good amp, and this BABY is about to get a BATTLE to drive, Going to compare my w1000x to the Ath AD A900x and the AKG K550  closed headphone SHOOT out, although the AD A900x sells for $230 new and $100 refurbished :O [which my w1000x are refurbished actually] where as the K550 goes as cheaply as $160 and the w1000x was $350 for me refurbished, so it won't be to fair a compairison... although the K550 and AD A900x are in the same tier. It shall be exciting


----------



## Thaigaryen

Quote: 





audioalex said:


> I just did the same with my HE-500 and I can feel an overall improvement in sound quality.. I feel that it's not only the bass that changed, the sound stage seems to have improved as well.. I wish I did it earlier )


 
   
  My brother just gave me his M-Stage 1.  Just to make sure my unit isn't defective - when I change the gain from 0 > 10 > 18 > 20, the sound level gets lowered with each increase.  I then would have to turn the volume up to match the sound level.  
   
  Is this how it's supposed to be?  Music does sound a lot better with the gains up but my master volume control also needs to be turned up even more.


----------



## evilhippie

the gain switches are reversed on many 1st gen m-stages, so its fine.  The gain setting is the opposite of whats printed on the label, ie. 20db is actually 0db, and vice versa.  Nothing to worry about.


----------



## Thaigaryen

Quote: 





evilhippie said:


> the gain switches are reversed on many 1st gen m-stages, so its fine.  The gain setting is the opposite of whats printed on the label, ie. 20db is actually 0db, and vice versa.  Nothing to worry about.


 
   
  Thanks!  That makes A LOT of sense now.


----------



## formula1

Quote: 





evilhippie said:


> the gain switches are reversed on many 1st gen m-stages, so its fine.  The gain setting is the opposite of whats printed on the label, ie. 20db is actually 0db, and vice versa.  Nothing to worry about.


 
   
  ....or the labels are reversed, not the switches.


----------



## Chris J

evilhippie said:


> the gain switches are reversed on many 1st gen m-stages, so its fine.  The gain setting is the opposite of whats printed on the label, ie. 20db is actually 0db, and vice versa.  Nothing to worry about.




I think everyone makes this mistake when they first get the M Stage.


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





thaigaryen said:


> Thanks!  That makes A LOT of sense now.


 
  yeap. you'll get the hang of it after a while, also I very much like sitting mine on it's side!


----------



## Thaigaryen

For a brief moment there I started to doubt everything I knew about gains! I've been into car audio as a teenager then moved on to home audio so I have plenty experience with using amps to adjust gains; but this amp almost caused me to think [you] computer audio people are nuts!

Glad to know we aren't that different after all.


----------



## Chris J

thaigaryen said:


> For a brief moment there I started to doubt everything I knew about gains! I've been into car audio as a teenager then moved on to home audio so I have plenty experience with using amps to adjust gains; but this amp almost caused me to think [you] computer audio people are nuts!
> 
> Glad to know we aren't that different after all.



 
 Yes, computer audio people are nuts! LOL!


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Yes, computer audio people are nuts! LOL!


 
  Thank you for noticing, we do try!


----------



## blueangel2323

Ha! Well to be fair, the M-Stage isn't really a computer-audio-specific amp. It can be used with any gear... of course technically all digital audio equipment is technically computers


----------



## elwappo99

Quote: 





blueangel2323 said:


> Very interesting... I've been switching back and forth between +10 and +18 (it's kind of a pain, having to flip 4 switches on the bottom of the unit; I wish they could've put a single gain switch on the front, just like the input selector) and they definitely sound different. The sound is a lot fuller and weightier on +18, in more ways than one.
> Firstly, bass is increased by a fair amount. There seems to be added warmth and depth as well. Main vocals sound fuller and chestier. Background singers sound like they're actually singing in full voice, whereas on +10 it sounds more like they're whispering.
> 
> Secondly, soundstage is a lot more full and layered, though not bigger per se. In fact, possibly due to the weightier sound, everything sounds more upfront and immediate. On +10 the soundstage was flat - like there's a giant wall of speakers 15 feet away, playing at you. They are a fair distance away from you, but everything is the same distance away. On +18 there is a lot more layering and depth to the soundstage. It's like you're listening to a live band with the lead singer in front of you, just a few feet away, guitars on either side of you, some instruments right behind the vocalist, other instruments much further back, background singers right behind you. In some ways it's more intimate, but more 3D and immersive.
> ...


 
   
  At some point someone did a nice write up on gains that really changed my mind about it. 
   
  Basically at each step you add gain you introduce some distortion to some extent. In addition, adding gain will reduce more and more of the sound of the m-stage, which i actually really enjoy.


----------



## Chris J

elwappo99 said:


> At some point someone did a nice write up on gains that really changed my mind about it.
> 
> Basically at each step you add gain you introduce some distortion to some extent. In addition, adding gain will reduce more and more of the sound of the m-stage, which i actually really enjoy.



 
 I know I've blabbed on and on about Gain in this thread! 20 dB of gain leeads to less feedback which means more distortion and less bandwidth. 0 dB of gain leads to more feedback which means less distortion and wider bandwidth. Some Op Amps may oscillate at 0 dB of gain. 10 dB of gain is a nice compromise.


----------



## Makiah S

Ok seriously, this amp is the greatest thing ever, I don't know when or why I just now noticed... but even at 0 gain with my w1000x. The dynamics on this are just awesome! My tubes... sounds... so flat and ugh BLAND compared to this! The Tube get's those mids nice and lush but... just can't handle dynamics as well, highs to peak nicely and lows to decay fast enough... the hybrid Tube I have just sounds... slow and boring. Where as the Matrix keeps things quick an interesting! I also think I've been listening to the same songs a little to much. I listen to my 9 Testing songs HOURS  on end each day, which is a good thing I guess, because after like 6 days I noticed how bland and lacking in dynamics my hybrid tube was... I mean when the horns crenshendo on this classical peice, the Matrix has a nice brassy warmth to it! NOT metallic, but the high notes, the PEAKS of the treble and Upper mids in teh horns REALLY come out, where as again'st the Tube... it's just MEH horns No beuno! Although this track... isn't really all that dynamic to be honest... looking at the wave form it doesn't change too much... means I need some REAL classical... which is REALLY DYNAMIC! It used to through me off, how it went from quiet to LOUD, but I kinda want that in my music! 
   
  Going on to rock, it's mostly singular in it's level of dynamics, but there's still a differance in energy, plus the post rock banks i like , make good use of quiet intros, agressive body's and quiter chorus. Followed with a slighty off key outro, 
   
  Speaking of which, I've changed my Testing music once again. Replaced an "asian" ost with a more dynamic and well imaged Move Track, also dropped my Classic Re take of a chip tune for a Cello Pinao Duet, nice dynamics in that tune! 
   
  That being said I'm also ditching Adele, her music is a little flat. Granted in "some one like you" there's the high energy of her voice as well as the lows of the Piano but... that's about it... Lisa Ekdahl's "Of my conceit" has much better imaging and dynamics, a soft cymbal in the back ground, a Guitar to my right, a paino to my left and a warm Wood Wind in the middle, which comes in when Lisa is not singing. Wonderful use of instruments there!
   
  Adele like my tube is just too laid back in her music. Lisa's voice goes from DEEP to soft, to powerful quiete a bit. She's a much better vocalist imo. Granted Adele has those same Dynamic ranges, but she's not as playful with her singing as Lisa is, nor is her music as well put together. 
   
  Also added some Explorations of Space and Time, a binural Percussion master piece! Repalceing Adele, with Dai Quing Tong


----------



## blueangel2323

I noticed something weird... the blue LED on the front lights up full strength when you turn it on, and usually it stays on when I have headphones plugged in. The light then turns off (or at least gets very dim) when you unplug the headphones. However, with my HD600, the LED is always very dim, as if there were no headphones plugged in at all. Any ideas as to why?


----------



## Thaigaryen

blueangel2323 said:


> I noticed something weird... the blue LED on the front lights up full strength when you turn it on, and usually it stays on when I have headphones plugged in. The light then turns off (or at least gets very dim) when you unplug the headphones. However, with my HD600, the LED is always very dim, as if there were no headphones plugged in at all. Any ideas as to why?




I have no idea but I can test to see if something similar happens to mine when I get home. Perhaps something to do with voltage depending on impedance of headphones?


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





thaigaryen said:


> I have no idea but I can test to see if something similar happens to mine when I get home. Perhaps something to do with voltage depending on impedance of headphones?


 
  My light is always one regardless of headphone I have plugged in


----------



## Chris J

blueangel2323 said:


> I noticed something weird... the blue LED on the front lights up full strength when you turn it on, and usually it stays on when I have headphones plugged in. The light then turns off (or at least gets very dim) when you unplug the headphones. However, with my HD600, the LED is always very dim, as if there were no headphones plugged in at all. Any ideas as to why?



 
 I also noticed something............you changed your avatar. She's gorgeous, who is she? BTW, I don't notice the blue LED dimming when headphones are plugged, the LED is always the same brightness.


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





chris j said:


> I also noticed something............you changed your avatar. She's gorgeous, who is she?BTW, I don't notice the blue LED dimming when headphones are plugged, the LED is always the same brightness.


 
  Wow, we've all moved past the LED and focused on the girl
   
  she is pretty but... like ZOMG DAUGHTER pretty, she looks REALLY young... I've never been one for those YOUNG looking women!


----------



## blueangel2323

lol that's the same girl as my previous avatar - my ex-friend's ex-wife's ex-coworker (literally) and my future wife (not so literally), Nina Dobrev. She's 24, two years younger than me, perfect age   
 Back to reality: the light only dims with my HD600, not my other headphones or IEMs. Weird, but hey it sounds good, so whatever.


----------



## Chris J

blueangel2323 said:


> lol that's the same girl as my previous avatar - my ex-friend's ex-wife's ex-coworker (literally) and my future wife (not so literally), Nina Dobrev. She's 24, two years younger than me, perfect age
> Back to reality: the light only dims with my HD600, not my other headphones or IEMs. Weird, but hey it sounds good, so whatever.



 
 Sorry, I hope I wasn't asking a personal question! I just assumed she was a model or an actress! Edit: nevermind, I just googled her, she IS a model/actress! (slaps forehead!)


----------



## blueangel2323

lol. She is indeed an actress. I thought the "not so literally" gave away that I was joking.


----------



## Makiah S

Back on Topic, k550 come in today. On the Matrix with a LME 49990 OP amp at +10 Gain [it needed it for thickness]
   
  Positives, K550 on M Stage had awesome dyanmics, sound stage and 3D imaging, and upper treble AND SUPER tight Bass
   
  BAD K550 had BAD lower mids, 150hrz-450/500 ish sounded sucked out
   
  These can's while having good bass, can NOT WOBBLE. What a shame. They lack aggressive punchy lower mids, drums also sounded a little life less >.>
   
  A Full review TOMMOROW! And I did NOT have any fit issues [trust me that bass was DAMN sexy deep and tight]


----------



## Chris J

blueangel2323 said:


> lol. She is indeed an actress. I thought the "not so literally" gave away that I was joking.




Oh well, I guess I'm not getting a wedding invitation then? 
I'm in the neighbourhood if it does work out for you two!


----------



## ShrikeT

Pretty impressed with this thing so far. Hooked it up to my Audioengine D1 and set the gain to 18. With the volume knob on the D1 turned all the way up, I turned the volume on the M-State all the way up and could hear no audible hiss on my Q701s. Pretty impressive. Played a variety of music and dynamics are definitely improved over the D1's integrated amp. Looking forward to trying it out with some surround gaming when I get home.


----------



## Chodi

Just got my tracking number from Jeffery and my M Stage has arrived in Bangkok. That means I will probably get it delivered to my home Monday. That will be less than one week from my order date. Tam Audio service is excellent! I ordered the following opamps to upgrade:
   
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LME49710HA-X2-Adaptor-/180872434827?
   
  Strangely the company that makes these is also in Thailand but way up North. Seems they reserve up to two weeks to ship from order so I imagine they order the parts when they receive a customer order. Anyway, since they are in Thailand the shipping should be fast. I don't know if anyone here has tried that opamp combo so I will report back when I receive it. I just received a new WA-2 last week so I can compare. I have no doubt the WA-2 is better but it will be an interesting comparison. I mostly bought this because I wanted to change off to solid state on occasion. I also have a La Figaro 332C tube amp that I just repaired so I can add that to the mix.


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





mshenay said:


> Back on Topic, k550 come in today. On the Matrix with a LME 49990 OP amp at +10 Gain [it needed it for thickness]
> 
> Positives, K550 on M Stage had awesome dyanmics, sound stage and 3D imaging, and upper treble AND SUPER tight Bass
> 
> ...


 
  Damnit, well the Akg K550 sound exactly how I want them do, the lack of mids was due to them being uhh well bad placement, and not so much seal. I moved the back of the cups towards my ears and BAM there where those Lower Mids... the problem now though Is that I am broke... I can BARELY afford this EPIC sounding cans... BUT some quick Ebay price drops and a few returns and I should be golden! Then I get to review and ultimatly return the Ath a900x as I DOUBT it will have the tight bass that these sexy monsters have!


----------



## Chodi

Quote: 





mshenay said:


> Damnit, well the Akg K550 sound exactly how I want them do, the lack of mids was due to them being uhh well bad placement, and not so much seal. I moved the back of the cups towards my ears and BAM there where those Lower Mids... the problem now though Is that I am broke... I can BARELY afford this EPIC sounding cans... BUT some quick Ebay price drops and a few returns and I should be golden! Then I get to review and ultimatly return the Ath a900x as I DOUBT it will have the tight bass that these sexy monsters have!


 
  There have been endless posts in this thread that confirm AKG headphones pair especially well with the M Stage. I have owned many different headphones but have never tried AKG. Is the 702 the top of their line? Seems like they don't try to compete with the T1's and the HD800's or the LCD3's of the world. They are more consumer oriented and they produce studio equipment. Excellent mid level phones.


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





chodi said:


> There have been endless posts in this thread that confirm AKG headphones pair especially well with the M Stage. I have owned many different headphones but have never tried AKG. Is the 702 the top of their line? Seems like they don't try to compete with the T1's and the HD800's or the LCD3's of the world. They are more consumer oriented and they produce studio equipment. Excellent mid level phones.


 
  Indeed, and honestly. The Akg K550 needs 0 gain, after using my w1000x during my review and noticing the 7-3pm volume adjustment, i remember that some songs are mastered quietly. And require more volume on every headphone. 
   
  Although, [and thank gawd for this] the K550 even with the Matrix M and a LEAN op amp, lacks the clarity and smooth refienment of both the Dt 990 and the w1000x, trust me Wooden Housing, and Open Backs are heavenly for mids and treble, how ever... the K550 does one thing better than the w1000x and that's BASS. It's much MUCH tighter, as tight as the Dt 990 even :O
   
  Either way it's a great can, and it isolates amazingly! Making it a perfect choice for my portable needs


----------



## blueangel2323

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Oh well, I guess I'm not getting a wedding invitation then?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  I'd love to give you a wedding invitation, because that would mean I'm the luckiest guy in the world. But first I gotta get a little closer with her, closer than being her former coworker's former husband's former friend 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 lol
   
  Where's Tarana? Isn't that like an Indian dance or something?
   
  Quote: 





mshenay said:


> Damnit, well the Akg K550 sound exactly how I want them do, the lack of mids was due to them being uhh well bad placement, and not so much seal. I moved the back of the cups towards my ears and BAM there where those Lower Mids... the problem now though Is that I am broke... I can BARELY afford this EPIC sounding cans... BUT some quick Ebay price drops and a few returns and I should be golden! Then I get to review and ultimatly return the Ath a900x as I DOUBT it will have the tight bass that these sexy monsters have!


 
  Glad it all worked out for you! Where do they sit in your collection? Not as good as the W1000x I would imagine?


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





blueangel2323 said:


> I'd love to give you a wedding invitation, because that would mean I'm the luckiest guy in the world. But first I gotta get a little closer with her, closer than being her former coworker's former husband's former friend
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Well, Stock w1000x would get mopped by the Akg K55
   
  But over all yea the Beyer Dt 990 and w1000x respectively out perform the Akg K550 in their "Happy time" genres. 
   
  Dt- 990 Classical, EDM, Nu Jazz 
  W1000x- Rock, Classical Jazz, Orchestral, Vocal, World Music, Some Classical 
   
  The Akg K550, is not as picky yet it's also lacks the... magic or the real... just sheer bliss each can and genre have. It [like the Beyer Dt 880] is a very good EVERYTHING can, how ever it does not care much for poorly recorded music, and it does Classical Jazz... seemingly well. Nu Jazz is nice <3
   
  Basically it will do EXACTLY what I need it to! Serve as an excellent portable headphone! As the isolation and fit are super easy. Just have to see how she's sound out of the JDS Labs C5 on Moday!


----------



## ShrikeT

So I took the top off my newly purchased M-Stage w/OPA627 to take a peak at the op amp mod. There were two strips of yellow making tape on it, I guess put there so it didn't come dislodged during shipping. Should I leave it there or better to take it off? Here's a pic after a peeled them back a bit to check out the op amps.


----------



## GaToMaLaCo

Take it off inmediatelly, that tape doesnt help to disipate heat, specially to the other components around the opamps.


----------



## ShrikeT

Hmmmm OK, odd that he would even leave it on there in the first place then. Are these things really that fragile? I hope not because I intend on hauling back and forth between work and home regularly.


----------



## Chodi

Probably just put that on to protect it during shipping. I am very surprised there would not have been a warning on the amp, maybe a sticker, that says to open and remove tape. I can think of many bad things that could happen if you used it with that tape in there. Glad you put me on notice as mine arrives tomorrow so I will immediately crack it open and check for tape.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





blueangel2323 said:


> I'd love to give you a wedding invitation, because that would mean I'm the luckiest guy in the world. But first I gotta get a little closer with her, closer than being her former coworker's former husband's former friend
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Sounds like you have to get A LOT closer to her!
  I live in Tarana, Ontario.
  I'm Canay-jun.


----------



## blueangel2323

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Sounds like you have to get A LOT closer to her!
> I live in Tarana, Ontario.
> I'm Canay-jun.


 
  lol wut joo say?
   
  Quote: 





shriket said:


> So I took the top off my newly purchased M-Stage w/OPA627 to take a peak at the op amp mod. There were two strips of yellow making tape on it, I guess put there so it didn't come dislodged during shipping. Should I leave it there or better to take it off? Here's a pic after a peeled them back a bit to check out the op amps.


 
  Weird, they probably left it in there by mistake. I don't think they would expect everyone to open up the case.


----------



## Chodi

Quote: 





blueangel2323 said:


> lol wut joo say?
> 
> Weird, they probably left it in there by mistake. I don't think they would expect everyone to open up the case.


 
  No it wasn't a mistake. I got my M Stage today and it had the exact same tape over the class A mod. They obviously do this for shipping but they should never do this without a large clear notice in the box or taped to the top of the unit saying to take this tape out. I can imagine what might happen if someone operates this for hours with that tape on. 
   
  I have only just set it up and started to listen. I was very surprised at how small it really is. I used to own the Audio gd C2.2 and it was easily four times the size. Still, on first listen fresh out of the box with my T1's it sound promising. I immediately noticed that it does a very good job of separating instruments within the soundstage. I can't say much for the tonality I think I will give it a few days before further thoughts. I am not a great believer in burn in for solid state equipment but the first few hours can bring some changes. I can say that it drives my T1's with no problem. I have it set to +10db just to see what that brings then I will try higher settings but I am getting enough volume for average listening with the pot at 12 o'clock.


----------



## Chodi

I just switched my new M Stage to +18db and found that it changes far more than the volume gain. I was quite surprised at the difference which is why I came back quickly to post. It not only changed the volume it gives the sound a much warmer presentation overall. I don't know if this is just some synergy issue with the T1's or it is the same with all headphones but the sound between the two gain settings is very different. I would be curious to know if others have experienced this? I do have the class A mod installed so perhaps that is a factor.
   
  Edit: I wasn't overjoyed with the extremely warm presentation on the other two so I switched over to 0 gain and the sound got less warm and more neutral but still not transparent enough for my taste. I have some other opamps coming on Wednesday I am hoping one of them does it for me. I was not expecting the sound to change this much with the gain settings. It is really a large difference. On 0 gain I have just enough room on the volume pot to get a reasonable listening level. At +10 things start to get unpleasant.


----------



## Chris J

blueangel2323 said:


> lol wut joo say?




Your girlfirend is on the front cover of this month's Cosmopolitan! 
Yummy! 

BTW,
The whole tape thing is kind of strange.
To 18 dB T1 guy:

Try the LM4562.


----------



## Chodi

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Your girlfirend is on the front cover of this month's Cosmopolitan!
> Yummy!
> 
> BTW,
> ...


 
  Thanks for the tip but I think that class A mod is just not for me. I was ready to put this back in the box then I remembered that it came with the original opamp in the box. I switched to the standard opamp and things are fine on any gain setting (I keep it on +10). I have some opamps coming on Wednesday to try but I could live just fine with the original. Something is not right with that Class A mod 627. Frankly it sounds very dark and very bad. The little 30cent opamp that was used in the review works just fine for me.


----------



## blueangel2323

chodi said:


> I just switched my new M Stage to +18db and found that it changes far more than the volume gain. I was quite surprised at the difference which is why I came back quickly to post. It not only changed the volume it gives the sound a much warmer presentation overall. I don't know if this is just some synergy issue with the T1's or it is the same with all headphones but the sound between the two gain settings is very different. I would be curious to know if others have experienced this? I do have the class A mod installed so perhaps that is a factor.



 
Nope it's not just the T1's, I find that +18db sounds very different too with my headphones. I posted my impressions a few pages back. Others have had a similar experience too.  
 The tape is probably common to all units with the class A 627 then. The ones with the stock op amp don't have any tape inside. 
 


chris j said:


> Your girlfirend is on the front cover of this month's Cosmopolitan!
> Yummy!



 
She is indeed! Maybe I should buy a copy lol. TBH I find fashion magazines to be a bit overdone. I prefer a more realistic, down to earth look   


chodi said:


> Thanks for the tip but I think that class A mod is just not for me. I was ready to put this back in the box then I remembered that it came with the original opamp in the box. I switched to the standard opamp and things are fine on any gain setting (I keep it on +10). I have some opamps coming on Wednesday to try but I could live just fine with the original. Something is not right with that Class A mod 627. Frankly it sounds very dark and very bad. The little 30cent opamp that was used in the review works just fine for me.



 
Yeah that class A mod is known for being quite warm. The LM4562 is good though. It's not a class A mod, just a normal dual op amp like the stock one that you can just pop in. It has crisper, better defined treble than the stock. Not sure how else they're different as I can't A-B them.


----------



## Chodi

Quote: 





blueangel2323 said:


> Nope it's not just the T1's, I find that +18db sounds very different too with my headphones. I posted my impressions a few pages back. Others have had a similar experience too.
> The tape is probably common to all units with the class A 627 then. The ones with the stock op amp don't have any tape inside.
> 
> 
> ...


 
  I have the LME49710HAX2 coming on Wednesday and I think that might be just the ticket. If that doesn't work I will try the LM4562. Here is a link to the one that's coming in:
   
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LME49710HA-X2-Adaptor-/180872434827?
   
  Frankly the stock opamp sounds pretty good to me. It's not going to compete with my Woo WA-2 but it is able to compete with my 332C tube amp. Not better, but in the same general class as the 332C.


----------



## GaToMaLaCo

Off topic warning: 
   
  Yummyyyy indeed


----------



## Chris J

gatomalaco said:


> Off topic warning:
> 
> Yummyyyy indeed



 
 Wrong issue, but that's OK. Rachel is absolutely gorgeous too! Mmmmmm, yummy.


----------



## Chris J

chodi said:


> Thanks for the tip but I think that class A mod is just not for me. I was ready to put this back in the box then I remembered that it came with the original opamp in the box. I switched to the standard opamp and things are fine on any gain setting (I keep it on +10). I have some opamps coming on Wednesday to try but I could live just fine with the original. Something is not right with that Class A mod 627. Frankly it sounds very dark and very bad. The little 30cent opamp that was used in the review works just fine for me.



 
 Hey man, I'm not a big fan of the Class A OP627 either. I have one but I never use it. I agree, it's too warm or dark or too something. I prefer the stock Op Amp over the Class A OP627 too. Sorry, forgot to use the "Multi" button!


----------



## blueangel2323

I don't even have a Multi button, nor rich text editing, because I don't have Java and/or a newer version of IE. It's annoying - I have to use HTML to do line breaks or add images.  
 Here's the right issue


----------



## Chris J

Ummmmmmmmmmm.............I was going to post something and now I can't remember was it was?


----------



## Thaigaryen

Quote: 





blueangel2323 said:


> I don't even have a Multi button, nor rich text editing, because I don't have Java and/or a newer version of IE. It's annoying - I have to use HTML to do line breaks or add images.
> Here's the right issue


 
   
  Will this device accept a full size TRS jack?


----------



## Mad Max

Yessir.  ;D
   
  UL says:


----------



## Chris J

thaigaryen said:


> Will this device accept a full size TRS jack?




Fully balanced only!


----------



## blueangel2323

She is very picky and won't pair well with just any device. Synergy is paramount, unlike with the M-Stage.


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Fully balanced only!


 
   
  Quote: 





blueangel2323 said:


> She is very picky and won't pair well with just any device. Synergy is paramount, unlike with the M-Stage.


 
  Ahh only on head fi!


----------



## Thaigaryen

mshenay said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I'll give her a shot. Blueangel mind if we start a group buy? Lol

Sorry for derailing this thread. I'll stop now.


----------



## ShrikeT

So I've spent the last couple hours A-Bing the gain settings. I think I've decided I like 10 the best. 0 sounds good too, but there isn't quite enough headroom there for quieter songs. 18 definitely adds (or takes away) something to the sound of my Q701s that I don't like. A little less detail, clarity, soundstage, whatever you want to call it. I would suggest anyone who gets an M-Stage, just start with 0 and if that gives you enough volume for everything you listen too, stick with that. Otherwise move up to 10, which seems like the best compromise between listening volume and sound quality.


----------



## Chodi

Quote: 





shriket said:


> So I've spent the last couple hours A-Bing the gain settings. I think I've decided I like 10 the best. 0 sounds good too, but there isn't quite enough headroom there for quieter songs. 18 definitely adds (or takes away) something to the sound of my Q701s that I don't like. A little less detail, clarity, soundstage, whatever you want to call it. I would suggest anyone who gets an M-Stage, just start with 0 and if that gives you enough volume for everything you listen too, stick with that. Otherwise move up to 10, which seems like the best compromise between listening volume and sound quality.


 
  I found this also. The gain setting changes much more than the gain. I keep it on 10 with the stock 2134op for now. I tried the op627 class A mod from Tam but it was terrible at any gain setting. Overly warm and dark. I have some opamps coming today or tomorrow to try but the stock 2134 is really very good in this application which is probably why they chose it.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





chodi said:


> I found this also. The gain setting changes much more than the gain. I keep it on 10 with the stock 2134op for now. I tried the op627 class A mod from Tam but it was terrible at any gain setting. Overly warm and dark. I have some opamps coming today or tomorrow to try but the stock 2134 is really very good in this application which is probably why they chose it.


 
   
  With an LM4562 I leave the gain on 10 dB.
  I use AKG Q701 'phones.
  That combination works best for me.
  I'm not crazy about the Class A OP627 and I'm not big on 18 or 20 dB of gain.


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





chris j said:


> With an LM4562 I leave the gain on 10 dB.
> I use AKG Q701 'phones.
> That combination works best for me.
> I'm not crazy about the Class A OP627 and I'm not big on 18 or 20 dB of gain.


 
  Indeed gain 18 chokes sound stage a little bit. But thankfully on the giant sound stage of the fully open backed dt 990s it can handle that extra voltage and well MEAT. So a win win for the Dt 990!


----------



## Chodi

Today I got the LME49710HAX2 opamp built on an adapter. I've been listening to it for several hours and it raises the M Stage to a completely different level. The soundstage opens in width and depth and height to an almost limitless size. I have some good tube amps sitting here including the WA-2 and it cannot produce the incredible soundstage I am hearing with these opamps in the M Stage. Not only is it huge but the placement of instruments is extremely precise with incredible layering. I am listening on T1's so lesser headphones may not get all of this. Tonal quality is very realistic with the ability to see through the music. Transparency is astounding. 
   
  I have been a tube guy all my life and I have owned several solid state amps always searching for the one that would bring me the same kind of magic I get with good tube amps. The basic M Stage is very good but the WA-2 is better in almost every way. Now with the addition of these opamps the little M Stage gives the WA-2 a real battle and beats it in total soundstage presentation. I would not have thought that possible but the image through the M Stage with this opamp set is positively 3D. 
   
  Here is a link to the ones I bought:
   
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LME49710HA-X2-Adaptor-/180872434827?
   
  I have nothing to do with the people that are making this. I just ordered off Ebay and I wanted to share the results.


----------



## elwappo99

Quote: 





chodi said:


> Today I got the LME49710HAX2 opamp built on an adapter. I've been listening to it for several hours and it raises the M Stage to a completely different level. The soundstage opens in width and depth and height to an almost limitless size. I have some good tube amps sitting here including the WA-2 and it cannot produce the incredible soundstage I am hearing with these opamps in the M Stage. Not only is it huge but the placement of instruments is extremely precise with incredible layering. I am listening on T1's so lesser headphones may not get all of this. Tonal quality is very realistic with the ability to see through the music. Transparency is astounding.
> 
> I have been a tube guy all my life and I have owned several solid state amps always searching for the one that would bring me the same kind of magic I get with good tube amps. The basic M Stage is very good but the WA-2 is better in almost every way. Now with the addition of these opamps the little M Stage gives the WA-2 a real battle and beats it in total soundstage presentation. I would not have thought that possible but the image through the M Stage with this opamp set is positively 3D.
> 
> ...


 
   
  You have piqued my interest! 
   
  Just to clarify could I get 2 of these from TI( http://www.ti.com/product/lme49710#samplebuy) and put them on a DIP adapter (ebay) by squeezing them on (like this)?


----------



## Chodi

Quote: 





elwappo99 said:


> You have piqued my interest!
> 
> Just to clarify could I get 2 of these from TI( http://www.ti.com/product/lme49710#samplebuy) and put them on a DIP adapter (ebay) by squeezing them on (like this)?


 
  If you are using the same part then you should get the same results. If you look at the photo of the one I bought you can see that the opamps are not mounted on a dip adapter. The little pcb was specially made to accept the opamps directly soldered to the board. I am not saying that makes a difference (although it might) only that it is a lot cleaner with a more solid connection. Of course, you can build your own connector with the the same opamps and expect the same results if it is put together as well.


----------



## Makiah S

A quick question, any one ever compare the Matrix to an Audio GD SE 10.32? I'm aggressively pursuing a pair of balanced cans, and though the 10.32 SE might be a nice step up.


----------



## Chodi

Quote: 





mshenay said:


> A quick question, any one ever compare the Matrix to an Audio GD SE 10.32? I'm aggressively pursuing a pair of balanced cans, and though the 10.32 SE might be a nice step up.


 
  I can't answer your question directly but I have owned an Audio-gd C2.2 and it was a very good amp (single ended). I have owned balanced equipment and what you get is better separation which equals better sound stage, usually bigger and better defined. Until I installed these new opamps outlined in my previous post I would not have believed it possible to get the same results without going balanced. Before you spend thousands upgrading your system I suggest you try the mod in your Matrix and see what that brings. You might be surprised. I sure was.
   
  You might also consider giving a listen to some statement quality headphones like the T1 or HD800 or some of the top orthos with your modded matrix you might save a bundle on changing to an all balanced setup. Mid level balanced is not going to be better than top quality SE in my experience. On the other hand top quality balanced will still get you there but for a price.


----------



## Redshift Rider

Quote: 





chodi said:


> Here is a link to the ones I bought:
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LME49710HA-X2-Adaptor-/180872434827?
> 
> I have nothing to do with the people that are making this. I just ordered off Ebay and I wanted to share the results.


 
   
  Order placed. Thank you for your impressions  
  I got the 'dual' versions of that opamp from him (used in the soundcard, and sounds fantastic).


----------



## ShrikeT

Man, 3 years ago I was perfectly happy listening to a stereo Bluetooth headset through my iPhone at work. Now I'm $700 into headphones, amps, and DACs and I keep thinking about what I should try next. I liked it when things were simpler. We have to go back, Kate!


----------



## blueangel2323

chodi said:


> Today I got the LME49710HAX2 opamp built on an adapter. I've been listening to it for several hours and it raises the M Stage to a completely different level. The soundstage opens in width and depth and height to an almost limitless size. I have some good tube amps sitting here including the WA-2 and it cannot produce the incredible soundstage I am hearing with these opamps in the M Stage. Not only is it huge but the placement of instruments is extremely precise with incredible layering. I am listening on T1's so lesser headphones may not get all of this. Tonal quality is very realistic with the ability to see through the music. Transparency is astounding.
> 
> I have been a tube guy all my life and I have owned several solid state amps always searching for the one that would bring me the same kind of magic I get with good tube amps. The basic M Stage is very good but the WA-2 is better in almost every way. Now with the addition of these opamps the little M Stage gives the WA-2 a real battle and beats it in total soundstage presentation. I would not have thought that possible but the image through the M Stage with this opamp set is positively 3D.
> 
> ...



 
Hmm this sounds really tempting. I could always use more soundstage, although a DAC upgrade would get me some of that. What DAC are you using?  
 EDIT: Actually, never mind. Apparently the LME49710 is the single version of the LME49720, which is very similar or even the exact same part as the LM4562 which I already have. I still need a new DAC though


----------



## Chodi

Quote: 





blueangel2323 said:


> Hmm this sounds really tempting. I could always use more soundstage, although a DAC upgrade would get me some of that. What DAC are you using?


 
  I have the Yulong D18. It's a $700 dac direct from China. According to my own experience and the reviews on this forum it competes very favorably with dacs up to $1500 and beyond. I totally believe that the dac is a factor in the results I am getting with the Matrix. You also have to consider that I am using $1400 headphones. I cannot guarantee the same results with lessor equipment. For me, the results with this opamp switch have been substantial. I really think that this companies implementation, the way in which they create and mount their custom adapter is important to the use of those particular opamps. I have doubts that you could just stick the opamps on any browndog and come up with the exact same results.
   
  For the first time with any amp I have owned the amp gets completely out of the way and does not impart it's own house sound on the recording. Every amp I own and have owned has some sonic signature that follows each individual recording. Now this Matrix totally transforms itself depending on the quality and mastering of the recording. That to me is the definition of neutral. I have not heard any amp do that so convincingly before.


----------



## blueangel2323

Nice! The D18 doesn't have its own headphone amp section, right? It needs to be paired with an external amp? I'm thinking of getting the D18's little brother, the D100, which has an excellent headphone out that's apparently almost as good as the M-Stage.


----------



## elwappo99

Quote: 





chodi said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Certainly tempted to buy the opamp and just be done with it, since I have some adapters and can get the opamps free, figured I'd go that route. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. I'm just not super well versed in opamps, and wanted to make sure there wasn't anything too wrong with my approach.


----------



## Chodi

Quote: 





blueangel2323 said:


> Nice! The D18 doesn't have its own headphone amp section, right? It needs to be paired with an external amp? I'm thinking of getting the D18's little brother, the D100, which has an excellent headphone out that's apparently almost as good as the M-Stage.


 
  For $700 you get just a Dac. No headphone amp no usb input. I use an M2Tech Hiface 2 for the input. I have heard that the D100 is well reviewed so at that price level it should offer excellent performance.
  Quote: 





elwappo99 said:


> Certainly tempted to buy the opamp and just be done with it, since I have some adapters and can get the opamps free, figured I'd go that route.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  I totally agree. If you can get them for free and you have some adapters go for it! Free is always good. I bought their setup because it was well made and just pop it in. I can't speak for how much their special adapter effects the sound. I can only report on what I hear.


----------



## elwappo99

Quote: 





chodi said:


> I totally agree. If you can get them for free and you have some adapters go for it! Free is always good. I bought their setup because it was well made and just pop it in. I can't speak for how much their special adapter effects the sound. I can only report on what I hear.


 
   
  Glancing over that ebay seller's items it looks like they have a lot of adapters and opamps they have made. It's actually pretty impressive, and they somehow make a pcb look pretty good. Definitely a good price considering how much work they go through.


----------



## Chris J

Folks, I hope no one is getting confused by all this stuff, but the LM4562 is a direct drop in replacement for the stock Op Amp in the M Stage. No adaptors needed! Nice and easy!


----------



## blueangel2323

Yep, the LME49720 and LM4562 are direct drop in replacements. LME49720 is essentially two LME49710s. If you get the single LME49710s then you need two of them and an adaptor.


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





blueangel2323 said:


> Yep, the LME49720 and LM4562 are direct drop in replacements. LME49720 is essentially two LME49710s. If you get the single LME49710s then you need two of them and an adaptor.


 
  I have one of those myself actually, and my orignal selller enjoyed the Lme 499990 better, as it had more realism over all. Where the Lme 49720 was spacious with amazing treble and mids, the Lme 49990 was equally spacious, with slightly less treble air but better defined bass. 
   
  So honestly my Matrix has already been upgraded with an aftermaket op amp, the LME 499990 which fits along with all the OP amps you guys have recommended. In addition the Audio GD 10.32 would be a cheaper upgrade than one might think. As an eays $300 combo sale of my Matrix and oDac would easily pay for most of the price of the new amp. And best of all I've been in need of a DAC with two RCA out's [the Audio GD 10.32 has just that.
   
  So for me The step to logical, and the use of SE cans with a Balanced Amp is a cheap upgrade and one my Desk would greatly appreicate me to make!


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





mshenay said:


> I have one of those myself actually, and my orignal selller enjoyed the Lme 499990 better, as it had more realism over all. Where the Lme 49720 was spacious with amazing treble and mids, the Lme 49990 was equally spacious, with slightly less treble air but better defined bass.
> 
> So honestly my Matrix has already been upgraded with an aftermaket op amp, the LME 499990 which fits along with all the OP amps you guys have recommended. In addition the Audio GD 10.32 would be a cheaper upgrade than one might think. As an eays $300 combo sale of my Matrix and oDac would easily pay for most of the price of the new amp. And best of all I've been in need of a DAC with two RCA out's [the Audio GD 10.32 has just that.
> 
> So for me The step to logical, and the use of SE cans with a Balanced Amp is a cheap upgrade and one my Desk would greatly appreicate me to make!


 
  Just curious, what's the attraction of balanced amps?
  I don't see the point, unless the design is used to cancel distortion or cancel noise or both.
  A lot of designs seem to do neither. They are jsut on the bandwagon and are milking the marketing of "Balanced!"


----------



## Change is Good

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Just curious, what's the attraction of balanced amps?
> I don't see the point, unless the design is used to cancel distortion or cancel noise or both.
> A lot of designs seem to do neither. They are jsut on the bandwagon and are milking the marketing of "Balanced!"


 
   
  I feel the same way about re-cabling... just my opinion...


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





change is good said:


> I feel the same way about re-cabling... just my opinion...


 
   
  I'm very contrary in some ways.
   
  I argue that if you think cables are snake oil (placebo, etc, etc) then you may as well just say that Op Am rolling is snake oil...............and let's continue...........tube rolling is snake oil.
  It sounds odd...........it sounds illogical.   Replace one 6SN7 with another 6SN7.....and your tube amp sonds different?   But they are both supposed to be 6SN7 tubes, i.e. the same thing!
  Feel free to disagree.  I have no real problem with that.
  Anyway, this is on topic, as we often talk about Op Amp rolling in the Matrix M.


----------



## Jd007

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Just curious, what's the attraction of balanced amps?
> I don't see the point, unless the design is used to cancel distortion or cancel noise or both.
> A lot of designs seem to do neither. They are jsut on the bandwagon and are milking the marketing of "Balanced!"


 
  balanced setups are more immune to interference since the the two opposite phase signals (which will be affected equally by interference) are combined to create the original signal. this allows amps to provide more power at a lower THD (which is why you see on a lot of balanced amps the power output from XLR is higher than SE).


----------



## Jd007

Quote: 





chris j said:


> I'm very contrary in some ways.
> 
> I argue that if you think cables are snake oil (placebo, etc, etc) then you may as well just say that Op Am rolling is snake oil...............and let's continue...........tube rolling is snake oil.
> It sounds odd...........it sounds illogical.   Replace one 6SN7 with another 6SN7.....and your tube amp sonds different?   But they are both supposed to be 6SN7 tubes, i.e. the same thing!
> ...


 
  not sure about this. op-amps have clearly different specs, and vacuum tubes vary greatly as a lot of them are made by hand, even in the same batch there will be variations. this gives a bit enough difference that you can reasonably perceive with your ears. cables are much simpler, industrially made by machines (i'm talking about the metal wire itself) from a single purified element (copper or silver). the electrical properties of different materials used are not great, so some people think that the difference is not perceivable by humans while others think they can hear a difference.
   
  not saying that anything is snake oil for sure, but cables definitely sit higher up on the snake-oil-o-meter than op-amp and tube rolling. imo at least


----------



## Change is Good

Quote: 





chris j said:


> I'm very contrary in some ways.
> 
> I argue that if you think cables are snake oil (placebo, etc, etc) then you may as well just say that Op Am rolling is snake oil...............and let's continue...........tube rolling is snake oil.
> It sounds odd...........it sounds illogical.   Replace one 6SN7 with another 6SN7.....and your tube amp sonds different?   But they are both supposed to be 6SN7 tubes, i.e. the same thing!
> ...


 
   
  I actually think its all snake oil... I rolled opamps with my M-Stage and personally don't hear any significant differences. Bash me all you want, I'm glad my ears aren't so keen to such things as re-cabling, opamp rolling, tube rolling, etc.
   
  I only hear significant differences in sound when comparing headphones and DACs... and only sometimes the amps, themselves (ex. M-stage sounds significantly different than the E12). It makes this hobby a much cheaper one that way... for me, atleast.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





jd007 said:


> balanced setups are more immune to interference since the the two opposite phase signals (which will be affected equally by interference) are combined to create the original signal. this allows amps to provide more power at a lower THD (which is why you see on a lot of balanced amps the power output from XLR is higher than SE).


 
  Well, kind of, sort of, almost.
  Balanced inputs reject noise because the noise is cancelled out by the "balanced" i.e. differential input.
  The input stage is amplifying the difference between the two "opposite phase" signals.
  The THD reduction is via another mechanism and depends on the topology of the amp.
  The power output on a balanced output amp is higher because a balanced output amp outputs twice as much voltage as an SE amp, assuiming they are running off the same power supply.
   
  Somebody please tell me to shut up.......
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  Quote: 





jd007 said:


> not sure about this. op-amps have clearly different specs, and vacuum tubes vary greatly as a lot of them are made by hand, even in the same batch there will be variations. this gives a bit enough difference that you can reasonably perceive with your ears. cables are much simpler, industrially made by machines (i'm talking about the metal wire itself) from a single purified element (copper or silver). the electrical properties of different materials used are not great, so some people think that the difference is not perceivable by humans while others think they can hear a difference.
> 
> not saying that anything is snake oil for sure, but cables definitely sit higher up on the snake-oil-o-meter than op-amp and tube rolling. imo at least


 
   
  Not too sure about this?
  I can see what you are getting at.
  OTOH, you could argue this brand of cable has different construction form that brand of cable. Different shielding, different guage wire, different conductor material, different physical construction, different insulation.......kinda like the tubes.
   
  The tubes have variations, few will argue that NOS tubes sound better than new tubes. Fair enough, I guess they are not all exact 6SN7s, for example.
   
  Op Amps have different specs, but if the two Op Amps are basically interchangeable in one amp and both have *good enough* specs for audio then why do they sound different?
  I'm not really expecting an answer, it just puzzles me...............
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Enough of my inane ranting, I'm going to bed.


----------



## Chodi

If someone could go from the stock opamp in the Matrix to the Tam OP-627 class A mod and then to the LME49710HAX2 mod and not hear a massive difference between the three, then there is a major problem somewhere else in the chain.  In that case rolling opamps is useless. Notice I didn't say subtle difference, I said massive difference. It's obvious if someone is using a poor quality $200 dac to front their system rolling opamps in the headphone amplifier probably won't bring much if any change. Those of us that have been here for a while know that it is the entire audio chain that matters not just one component. That's why most of us trust great reviewers like Skylab because he has experience with matching components at all levels of performance.


----------



## Mad Max

Opamp rolling is relatively a waste of time.  I wasted too much time delving into that.  =\
  On the plus side, I've learned a few things about circuits that come in handy here and there beyond rolling opamps and such.
   
  I still think that LME49720/49710(HA)/LM4562 sounds like crap without at least a 0.1uF ceramic cap across its power supply pins.  With the cap, it goes from flabby-bass unnatural and fatiguing crapola to "serious business" hifi sound.
  It can't beat TL5580, OPA602, OPA209, ADA4627-1B, or OPA1611 with good bypassing anyway.


----------



## Chodi

Quote: 





mad max said:


> Opamp rolling is relatively a waste of time.  I wasted too much time delving into that.  =\
> On the plus side, I've learned a few things about circuits that come in handy here and there beyond rolling opamps and such.
> 
> I still think that LME49720/49710(HA)/LM4562 sounds like crap without at least a 0.1uF ceramic cap across its power supply pins.  With the cap, it goes from flabby-bass unnatural and fatiguing crapola to "serious business" hifi sound.
> It can't beat TL5580, OPA602, OPA209, ADA4627-1B, or OPA1611 with good bypassing anyway.


 
  I respect your opinion as an experienced member of the forum, but I only reported what I hear in my own system. I don't get any flabby bass or unnatural sound out of this combination. Just my personal experience.


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





jd007 said:


> balanced setups are more immune to interference since the the two opposite phase signals (which will be affected equally by interference) are combined to create the original signal. this allows amps to provide more power at a lower THD (which is why you see on a lot of balanced amps the power output from XLR is higher than SE).


 
  This as well, the Audio GD I'm looking at can run about [size=small]9950MW /  25 ohm or 9watts into 25 ohms through the XLR Headphone Jack  and about [/size][size=small]3300MW /  25 ohm through the SE jack. So there is A LOT more amps being pushed with a Balanced XLR jack then a SE jack. [/size]


----------



## blueangel2323

With balanced cabling, do the left and right channels still share a common ground? I heard that channel separation is apparently a lot better with balanced, and therefore an increased soundstage.


----------



## Chodi

Quote: 





blueangel2323 said:


> With balanced cabling, do the left and right channels still share a common ground? I heard that channel separation is apparently a lot better with balanced, and therefore an increased soundstage.


 
  I've had experience with two balanced systems including a Stax system and yes, increased better defined soundstage is a typical benefit. You also get a blacker background. In the end I gave it up cause I change equipment too often and going balanced gets expensive.


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





chodi said:


> I've had experience with two balanced systems including a Stax system and yes, increased better defined soundstage is a typical benefit. You also get a blacker background. In the end I gave it up cause I change equipment too often and going balanced gets expensive.


 
  Indeed it does, My options right now are, I get the Balanced Beyer on the FS thread tommorow. I get a Audio GD in September. I Don't get the Bal;anced Byeyer TOmmorow. I wait till the Spring and get it then


----------



## Chris J

blueangel2323 said:


> With balanced cabling, do the left and right channels still share a common ground? I heard that channel separation is apparently a lot better with balanced, and therefore an increased soundstage.




To answer your question:
In a balanced set-up, the left and right channels do not share a "common ground".
Both channels are actually driven by a non-inverted signal and an inverted signal.
So left and right are somewhat independent of each other.
I say somewhat independent as they both share the same power supply.......well.....they usually do.

In a single ended system, both channels are driven by a non-inverted signal and a "common ground".
The "common ground" is common to both channels.


----------



## blueangel2323

Quote: 





chris j said:


> To answer your question:
> In a balanced set-up, the left and right channels do not share a "common ground".
> Both channels are actually driven by a non-inverted signal and an inverted signal.
> So left and right are somewhat independent of each other.
> ...


 
  Thanks. Yes then it would make sense that channel separation is better... literally.


----------



## jkorten

ignore - my bad.


----------



## Chris J

jkorten said:


> ignore - my bad.




And Lana Del Ray is very, very, very bad! 

Sorry........off topic. I was listening to Paradise.


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





blueangel2323 said:


> Thanks. Yes then it would make sense that channel separation is better... literally.


 
  I know right lol


----------



## Chris J

I'm always surprised that more folks don't bring up the noise rejection that balanced interconnects can provide you!


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





chris j said:


> I'm always surprised that more folks don't bring up the noise rejection that balanced interconnects can provide you!


 
  That too, either way... I'm gonng be pretty DAMN broke when I buy that thing so xD if any one has friends in need of a starting set up, my oDac and Matrix M will be up for sale for $320 for both, free shipping to US. It's going to be a little over a month before I get my Audio GD 10.32 but when I get it working I'll be selling my current dac and Amp!


----------



## Remior

This week has arrived to home a couple of things...
   
   

   
  Now testing on LM4562NA on DAC secction and dual class A OPA627AP on Amp section. 
   

   
   
  K701 pairy really awesome with the M Stage, I'm really impressed ¿who says this haven't bass? They even have quite punch...


----------



## Chodi

Quote: 





remior said:


> This week has arrived to home a couple of things...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  The opamp upgrades made a big difference on my M Stage, so yes, I agree with you. I am frankly amazed at the sound of this amp for the price. It was good with the stock opamp but nothing like it sounds with the upgrade. I think you would have to go beyond $1000 to beat this amp. Exceptional value. Skylab got it right and he has not even heard the upgrade potential.


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





chodi said:


> The opamp upgrades made a big difference on my M Stage, so yes, I agree with you. I am frankly amazed at the sound of this amp for the price. It was good with the stock opamp but nothing like it sounds with the upgrade. I think you would have to go beyond $1000 to beat this amp. Exceptional value. Skylab got it right and he has not even heard the upgrade potential.


 
  makes me wonder how my [soon to be purchased] AUdio GD 10ES2 will compare... the Dac in the 10ES2 has the ESS Sabare ES9018 dac chip, which is the flag ship model [and a step above the ES9023 dac in my oDac] so I'm anxious to see how it compares to the matrix


----------



## Chodi

Quote: 





mshenay said:


> makes me wonder how my [soon to be purchased] AUdio GD 10ES2 will compare... the Dac in the 10ES2 has the ESS Sabare ES9018 dac chip, which is the flag ship model [and a step above the ES9023 dac in my oDac] so I'm anxious to see how it compares to the matrix


 
  Audio-gd products are a great value. I owned a C2.2 amp  and I went through the Audio-gd Earth and Moon discrete opamps. The amp had tremendous dynamics and bass that would really rock you. It went very low and very fast. I have heard other Audio-gd products and that seems to be their house sound although it varies some with each model. With that 10ES2 you are getting a quality dac and a usb interface built in for a very low price. If you like a very dynamic sound then I'm sure you will be happy. It won't be the neutral sound of my M Stage and it probably won't have the big soundstage I'm getting. When you go up to the higher line Audio-gd products you get the big soundstage with excellent low level resolution. Of course, your headphones have to be up to the task.
   
  I just noticed you are using an Odac for your source so yea, the Audio-gd should be a good step up for you.


----------



## project86

Just popping back into this ancient thread of mine with a bit of news for those who might be interested - Matrix USA has the M-Stage on sale for $234 for the entire month of September. The USB version is $261 (I'm rounding up on these). That's 10% off which is nothing to sneeze at considering the excellent service you get from Arthur at Matrix USA. 
   
  For those prices, I think everyone should have an M-Stage laying around. Friends who hear your rig and say they'd love to have something nice like that but can't afford it? M-Stage with USB DAC, plus an HD600 or Q701 or HE400, should be doable for most anyone with a part time job.


----------



## Chodi

Quote: 





project86 said:


> Just popping back into this ancient thread of mine with a bit of news for those who might be interested - Matrix USA has the M-Stage on sale for $234 for the entire month of October. The USB version is $261 (I'm rounding up on these). That's 10% off which is nothing to sneeze at considering the excellent service you get from Arthur at Matrix USA.
> 
> For those prices, I think everyone should have an M-Stage laying around. Friends who hear your rig and say they'd love to have something nice like that but can't afford it? M-Stage with USB DAC, plus an HD600 or Q701 or HE400, should be doable for most anyone with a part time job.


 
  I ordered direct from Tam about two weeks ago and they gave me the 10% discount. So you can get it direct if you are outside the USA. Had it for a week and with an upgrade of the opamps (not from Tam) it sounds wonderful with my T1's (better than my tube amps). Remarkable sound and crazy value for the money it's a steal.


----------



## project86

Quote: 





chodi said:


> I ordered direct from Tam about two weeks ago and they gave me the 10% discount. So you can get it direct if you are outside the USA. Had it for a week and with an upgrade of the opamps (not from Tam) it sounds wonderful with my T1's (better than my tube amps). Remarkable sound and crazy value for the money it's a steal.


 
   
  Thanks - yes, definitely order from the appropriate dealer for your area. Tam is great to deal with, as is Grant Fidelity who now covers distribution in Canada, and of course Arthur at Matrix USA. All good people to deal with based on my personal interactions with each of them. 
   
  I fixed my above post - for some reason I put "October" instead of "September" for the sale pricing. No need to wait a month, M-Stage is on sale right now. Their RIP DAC/amp unit is also on sale, but I don't know much about that particular model.


----------



## blueangel2323

Quote: 





project86 said:


> Thanks - yes, definitely order from the appropriate dealer for your area. Tam is great to deal with, as is Grant Fidelity who now covers distribution in Canada, and of course Arthur at Matrix USA. All good people to deal with based on my personal interactions with each of them.
> 
> I fixed my above post - for some reason I put "October" instead of "September" for the sale pricing. No need to wait a month, M-Stage is on sale right now. Their RIP DAC/amp unit is also on sale, but I don't know much about that particular model.


 
  The Grant Fidelity website doesn't carry any Matrix products... are you thinking of Yulong?


----------



## 2000impreza

blueangel2323 said:


> The Grant Fidelity website doesn't carry any Matrix products... are you thinking of Yulong?




Grant fidelity is in fact selling matrix as well. Looks like they setup a matrix canada website separately.

Website:
http://www.matrix-digi.ca/


----------



## blueangel2323

Quote: 





2000impreza said:


> Grant fidelity is in fact selling matrix as well. Looks like they setup a matrix canada website separately.
> 
> Website:
> http://www.matrix-digi.ca/


 
  You mean in their retail store? I can't find any Matrix products on their website 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  And thanks for the link!


----------



## pdrm360

Is the M-Stage a good amp for Sennheiser HD700?


----------



## pdrm360

Does anyone know how sound quality of the DAC is on the M-Stage w/USB?


----------



## Change is Good

It"s a good starter DAC and for the extra $30 you can't go wrong.


----------



## pdrm360

Quote: 





change is good said:


> It"s a good starter DAC and for the extra $30 you can't go wrong.


 
  How is it in compare with the E07k or E17’s DAC? Thanks!


----------



## Change is Good

Never had them side by side so couldn't tell you. I do remember the Fiios having a warmer tone.


----------



## chicolom

The Fiios have a bigger soundstage.


----------



## Change is Good

I think he should go your route and get the E10 with the original Matrix with two RAC inputs.


----------



## Chodi

Quote: 





pdrm360 said:


> Is the M-Stage a good amp for Sennheiser HD700?


 
  I haven't heard it with the HD700 but I have with the HD800 and it is a remarkable pairing. The M Stage seems to love high impedance phones. Works fabulous with my T1's also. I do suggest you look into upgrading the opamps (simple plugin). I do not advise the opamp upgrade direct from Matrix (Tam). It sounds great with the stock opamp but magic with the right upgrade and very cheap to do (like $30 bucks).


----------



## mvrk10256

How does the M stage do with planars? Currently have modded T50RPs, and plan on HE4/500 soon.


----------



## Remior

Quote: 





pdrm360 said:


> Does anyone know how sound quality of the DAC is on the M-Stage w/USB?


 
   
  Honestly I can't diference betwen my Xonar Essence ST DAC and Matrix M Stage DAC. In theory it's quite better the Xonar DAC.
   
  There are differences on technic capabilities, Xonar ST: 16/24 bit and 44,1-192Khz and M Stage only 24 bit and 44,1-96Khz but in sound differences my ears can't found any difference. I think it's a very good DAC for the price.
   
  I use Xonar DAC with ASIO 64 bit (16bit-1ms latency)) and M Stage DAC with WASAPI event style (24bit-5ms latency) on Foobar 2K and on a blind probe I wouldn't difference one from another. Maybe my ears sucks but it's what I can hear.


----------



## Chodi

Quote: 





remior said:


> Honestly I can't diference betwen my Xonar Essence ST DAC and Matrix M Stage DAC. In theory it's quite better the Xonar DAC.
> 
> There are differences on technic capabilities, Xonar ST: 16/24 bit and 44,1-192Khz and M Stage only 24 bit and 44,1-96Khz but in sound differences my ears can't found any difference. I think it's a very good DAC for the price.
> 
> I use Xonar DAC with ASIO 64 bit (16bit-1ms latency)) and M Stage DAC with WASAPI event style (24bit-5ms latency) on Foobar 2K and on a blind probe I wouldn't difference one from another. Maybe my ears sucks but it's what I can hear.


 
  My comments were relative to the M Stage amp. The dac section which is available and can be included for a modest amount ($30) is not that great. I haven't seen many comments on the M Stage dac but I am sure if you do a search you will turn up some results.


----------



## pdrm360

Quote: 





chodi said:


> My comments were relative to the M Stage amp. The dac section which is available and can be included for a modest amount ($30) is not that great. I haven't seen many comments on the M Stage dac but I am sure if you do a search you will turn up some results.


 
  Which one would be a better set in your opinion for the HD800?
   
  “Audioquest Dragonfly DAC + M-Stage Amp”  *or*  "M-Stage DAC/Amp"
   
  Thanks!


----------



## pdrm360

Quote: 





change is good said:


> I think he should go your route and get the E10 with the original Matrix with two RAC inputs.


 
  Really!?


----------



## Change is Good

Quote: 





pdrm360 said:


> Really!?


 
  I don't see why not... but I would wait on chico to confirm because I have never heard the E10. I only have the HRT MusicStreamer II at the moment (which he's had before I believe).


----------



## pdrm360

Quote: 





change is good said:


> I don't see why not... but I would wait on chico to confirm because I have never heard the E10. I only have the HRT MusicStreamer II at the moment (which he's had before I believe).


 
  Is the sound quality of M-Stage’s DAC worse than E10’s DAC?


----------



## Change is Good

Here you go buddy. Happy belated birthday (or early birthday 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





)!
   
http://www.head-fi.org/t/587526/three-dac-comparison-fiio-e10-hrt-music-streamer-ii-m-stage-usb


----------



## pdrm360

Quote: 





change is good said:


> Here you go buddy. Happy belated birthday (or early birthday
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  I didn’t see that, thanks!


----------



## pdrm360

Interesting, to my ears, the DragonFly pulls a bit more detail and slightly wider soundstage then HRT Music streamer II on a tube amp. So I guess the “DF + M-Stage” should be a good pair, although DF is a little harsher than HRT MSII.
   
  Has anyone tried using a DragonFly with M-Stage?


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





change is good said:


> Here you go buddy. Happy belated birthday (or early birthday
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  I'd forgotten about that thread 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  These days I would say you're fine with a good FiiO DAC, the ODAC, or maybe the Modi too (haven't heard it).  One reason I sold the HRT was that it seemed the soundstage was more left-right and it had less depth than the ODAC, which was something that bothered me eventually.


----------



## pdrm360

Quote: 





chicolom said:


> I'd forgotten about that thread
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  That was a good review anyway.


----------



## chicolom

Thanks.


----------



## Chris J

pdrm360 said:


> Interesting, to my ears, the DragonFly pulls a bit more detail and slightly wider soundstage then HRT Music streamer II on a tube amp. So I guess the “DF + M-Stage” should be a good pair, although DF is a little harsher than HRT MSII.
> 
> Has anyone tried using a DragonFly with M-Stage?




I haven't heard most of those DACs, but the iBasso D12 works quite well with the M Stage.
The D12 is a clearer DAC than my FiiO E17, the E17 has a bit of grit and adds a bit of "fzzzzzzt" to any track you play thru it.
For whatever reasosn the D12 lacks this noise or distortion or whatever you want to call it. 
It takes a while for your ear to get used to the difference between the two DACs, but once you get used to it, the E17 just adds a bit more hash to the music.

http://www.ibasso.com/en/products/show.asp?ID=63

http://www.head-fi.org/t/508094/the-ibasso-d12-dual-dacs-images-new-sysconcept-optical-cable-topkit-by-hiflight


----------



## hifienthusiast

Quote: 





pdrm360 said:


> Does anyone know how sound quality of the DAC is on the M-Stage w/USB?


 
  I am using a M-Stage with USB with my Sennheiser HD600. The USB section is good enough but it can be improved. I tried a Musical Fidelity V-DAC (mark I)which sounds clearer and more dynamic than the internal USB of the M-Stage. Instrument separation is better with the V-DAC.
   
  I am sure there are better DAC than the USB DAC of M-Stage but for casual listening, the internal USB is good enough for me.


----------



## Shockah

Has anyone compared the Matrix M-Stage to the Schiit Magni? In my country, the Magni is nearly half the price of the Matrix M-Stage, although the M stage can act as a preamp, which is a strong point of contention.


----------



## techboy

From all I have read m stage is a step up from the revised asgard 1. Magni isn't even close. Dunno about a2.


----------



## Fearless1

techboy said:


> From all I have read m stage is a step up from the revised asgard 1. Magni isn't even close. Dunno about a2.


 
 Well if you "read it" it must be true! I read that Bigfoot was spotted in Rhode Island so that must be true as well.


shockah said:


> Has anyone compared the Matrix M-Stage to the Schiit Magni? In my country, the Magni is nearly half the price of the Matrix M-Stage, although the M stage can act as a preamp, which is a strong point of contention.


 
 I own both, the M-stage is warmer and more "musical" then the Magni, the Magni is more clinical and neutral. I suppose it would depend on your preference.


----------



## Shockah

fearless1 said:


> I own both, the M-stage is warmer and more "musical" then the Magni, the Magni is more clinical and neutral. I suppose it would depend on your preference.



Thanks! But does anyone know how does the matrix m stage compare to a tube amp like the littledot mkiv? I intend to use either one with the Modi DAC and Senn HD600s and many reviews stated that the mkiv and HD600 have good synergy. Never really heard of people with the m stage and HD600 though.


----------



## Fearless1

shockah said:


> Thanks! But does anyone know how does the matrix m stage compare to a tube amp like the littledot mkiv? I intend to use either one with the Modi DAC and Senn HD600s and many reviews stated that the mkiv and HD600 have good synergy. Never really heard of people with the m stage and HD600 though.


 
 I do not own or have not heard  any of the LD series of amps, so I will refrain from commenting.
  
  I do like the HD600 off of the M-stage. I like the HD600 more off of the Lyr/EF-5 (with better tubes), there is a special synergy to my ears with tubes and the HD600/650.For the money,  the M-stage is a very "tube-like" great sounding amp, it is very musical and plush sounding. Upgrade the OPA and it is a fantastic amp.


----------



## Remior

I found myself enjoying much more the K701 on the M Stage than the HD650, and I think it's a question of how it power the both headphones. Power minds nothing but how you power it means everything.
  
 1 Watt = 1Volt x 1 Ampere
  
 Low impedance and high sensivity headphones needs power with Ampere dependence (power watts based on more ampere quantity and less volts).
 Low impedance and low sensivity headphones needs power with Ampere and Volt dependence (very complicated to find the optimal point) It's the case of the K701.
 High impedance headphones with good sensivity needs power with Volt dependence (power watts based on more volts quantity and less amperes). Case of HD6XX.
  
 My M Stage sounds pretty good with K701 at +18db gain and less turn on volumen control. But I find myself enjoying more the HD650 with +10db gain and turning more the volumen control. Maybe Volumen control increase/decrease the Volts and the gain only changes the Amperes cuantity on the electrical power to feed the headphones and thats why I feel that...
  
 Anyway M Stage it's a warm kind of amplifier and will pairs very well with more analitycal headphones... tube amplifiers gives lots of volts and for that reason maybe works better with HD6XX.


----------



## Chris J

The volume control basically increases/decreases the output voltage.
 The gain settings are actually Voltage gain settings.
  
 Output Current is actually a function of the combination of output voltage and headphone impedance.
  
 Try reading this link:
  
http://www.head-fi.org/a/headphone-impedance


----------



## Shini44

Hey guys i am about to buy this amp and change the OPamp to AD8610 so i use it with my TH600, what do you think? 
  
 also do i need to go for *2x DIP to DIP Dual to Mono Opamp PCB Adapter *so i install 2x AD8610? or the AD8610 is daul so i only need one ??  i saw few people adding two opamps, what benefits do they get from double opamp.


----------



## Chodi

shini44 said:


> Hey guys i am about to buy this amp and change the OPamp to AD8610 so i use it with my TH600, what do you think?
> 
> also do i need to go for *2x DIP to DIP Dual to Mono Opamp PCB Adapter *so i install 2x AD8610? or the AD8610 is daul so i only need one ??  i saw few people adding two opamps, what benefits do they get from double opamp.


 
  
 I would be curious to know why you chose the AD8610? Not saying it's a bad choice, just wondering where you got that particular opamp idea from? I have already posted my preference in this thread. Some say that using an adapter and two mono opamps gets better sound. It did in my case but I guess it depends on the implementation. I think if you are going to be using lots of sockets to get there it may not be such a great idea. I bought a combo that is soldered to the adapter. 
  
 I would say you can certainly improve the performance of the M Stage by changing the opamps but you can also hurt the sound quality with the wrong choice. I tried some that were god awful. The rest of the chain, the dac the usb connection and your choice of headphones have a lot to do with the results in rolling opamps.


----------



## Shini44

chodi said:


> I would be curious to know why you chose the AD8610? Not saying it's a bad choice, just wondering where you got that particular opamp idea from? I have already posted my preference in this thread. Some say that using an adapter and two mono opamps gets better sound. It did in my case but I guess it depends on the implementation. I think if you are going to be using lots of sockets to get there it may not be such a great idea. I bought a combo that is soldered to the adapter.
> 
> I would say you can certainly improve the performance of the M Stage by changing the opamps but you can also hurt the sound quality with the wrong choice. I tried some that were god awful. The rest of the chain, the dac the usb connection and your choice of headphones have a lot to do with the results in rolling opamps.


 
  
 i had Uha-6S.MKII before with the same opamp, i am also considering op627 since it is with sparkling highs and nice treble yet the mids isn't the best on it. 
  
 my plan now is to get two adapters for each opamp and use 2x of them on each adapter, just wanted to ask here if this plan is wrong or something.


----------



## Chodi

shini44 said:


> i had Uha-6S.MKII before with the same opamp, i am also considering op627 since it is with sparkling highs and nice treble yet the mids isn't the best on it.
> 
> my plan now is to get two adapters for each opamp and use 2x of them on each adapter, just wanted to ask here if this plan is wrong or something.


 
  
 I bought the op627 class A mode from Tam and I found the results not at all to my taste. At the risk of over posting this here is what I bought:
  
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LME49710HA-X2-Adaptor-/180872434827?
  
 At least in my system I got fantastic results with that and I did try a few other combos. The one I bought above is the end game for me. I don't feel the need to try anything else.


----------



## Redshift Rider

chodi said:


> Today I got the LME49710HAX2 opamp built on an adapter. I've been listening to it for several hours and it raises the M Stage to a completely different level. The soundstage opens in width and depth and height to an almost limitless size. I have some good tube amps sitting here including the WA-2 and it cannot produce the incredible soundstage I am hearing with these opamps in the M Stage. Not only is it huge but the placement of instruments is extremely precise with incredible layering. I am listening on T1's so lesser headphones may not get all of this. Tonal quality is very realistic with the ability to see through the music. Transparency is astounding.


 
  
 Coming from LM4562NA i completely agree with these descriptions. Difference is immediately apparent, and for me, bigger than going from stock to LM4562NA.


----------



## chicolom

Sounds to good to be true :/


----------



## Shini44

yet i was told that the LME49710 got harsh highs , my most important thing is the highs/treble so i hope some one correct me here so i be able to order the adapter and the 2x LME49710 and install them on the M-Stage, else i find my self going for Uha-6S.MKII op627 + ad8610.


----------



## Chodi

chicolom said:


> Sounds to good to be true :/


 
  
 Honestly, I found it hard to believe and I am listening to it. I been around this audiophile game for a long time and I have never seen such a price/value component. When I took the M Stage out of the box it had the Tam class a mod installed and it sounded terrible to me. I put the stock opamp in and I said this is what all the fuss is about. It sounded quite good for a cheap ss amp but it was no serious competition for my other amps. Then I did some opamp rolling and I heard changes but nothing really exciting. Got the part in with the dual LME49710HA and WOW! 
  
 I listen mostly to classical music although I do have a wide variety of music in my files. The most obvious aspects of this change are the presentation of the soundstage and the transparency. This is far beyond anything I would call a subtle change. For less than $30 this mod transformed the M Stage into something really special for me. It is the most neutral sound I have ever heard from a headphone amp.


----------



## Maxvla

pdrm360 said:


> Does anyone know how sound quality of the DAC is on the M-Stage w/USB?



There's not much to like about the included DAC on the M-Stage USB, except that it barely costs anything and provides a DAC in the event you are selling your main DAC and are waiting for a new main DAC to be delivered, or have loaned your main DAC to a friend, etc. It's pretty rough, but functional.


----------



## chicolom

chodi said:


> Honestly, I found it hard to believe and I am listening to it. I been around this audiophile game for a long time and I have never seen such a price/value component. When I took the M Stage out of the box it had the Tam class a mod installed and it sounded terrible to me. I put the stock opamp in and I said this is what all the fuss is about. It sounded quite good for a cheap ss amp but it was no serious competition for my other amps. Then I did some opamp rolling and I heard changes but nothing really exciting. Got the part in with the dual LME49710HA and WOW!


 
  
  
 I've tried a couple op-amps and the changes have always been minor, and certainly nothing like what you're describing.
  
 I don't hear that much difference between the stock op-amp and the LM4562 I have in there now.


----------



## Maxvla

pdrm360 said:


> Which one would be a better set in your opinion for the HD800?
> 
> “Audioquest Dragonfly DAC + M-Stage Amp”  *or*  "M-Stage DAC/Amp"
> 
> Thanks!



Objective 2 DAC + M-Stage of either flavor. I recommend getting the USB version in case you ever need an extra DAC, unless you have 2 RCA sources you will use regularly with the M-Stage, then go amp as the DAC version has only one analog input.

--

By the way, I seem to be the only one using a LT1364 in my M-Stage (on advice from Arthur @ MatrixUSA). It was a significant improvement in treble quality, and sound from top to bottom is a little cleaner than the stock opamp. I'm using this with HD800s, which are very picky about their treble, and able to extract incredible amounts of detail. I remain amazed this device can perform acceptably with such a resolving headphone for such a cheap price. It is my stand in amp going from Bryston BHA-1 to Headamp GS-X and it is doing fine. My setup is kind of silly at the moment with the Matrix X-Sabre feeding the M-Stage to a HD800, but it sounds alright somehow.


----------



## Chodi

chicolom said:


> I've tried a couple op-amps and the changes have always been minor, and certainly nothing like what you're describing.
> 
> I don't hear that much difference between the stock op-amp and the LM4562 I have in there now.


 
  
 I tried the LM4562 and I agree with you. With the LM4562 I did not hear much change from the stock opamp. There was a difference, but not enough to talk about.


----------



## chicolom

chodi said:


> If someone could go from the stock opamp in the Matrix to the Tam OP-627 class A mod and then to the LME49710HAX2 mod and not hear a massive difference between the three, then there is a major problem somewhere else in the chain.  In that case rolling opamps is useless. Notice I didn't say subtle difference, I said massive difference. It's obvious* if someone is using a poor quality $200 dac to front their system rolling opamps in the headphone amplifier probably won't bring much if any change. *


 
  
  
 Maybe my problem is I'm _only_ using a $150 DAC, and I should first throw several hundred more dollars into a DAC before I will be able hear a difference between a $10 and a $25 opamp.
  
 It also doesn't make any sense to me how 2 opamps with an adapter would sound any better than a single _dual_ opamp that is already designed for specifically for that application and which drops right in.


----------



## Chodi

chicolom said:


> Maybe my problem is I'm _only_ using a $150 DAC, and I should first throw several hundred more dollars into a DAC before I will be able hear a difference between a $10 and a $25 opamp.
> 
> It also doesn't make any sense to me how 2 opamps with an adapter would sound any better than a single _dual_ opamp that is already designed for specifically for that application and which drops right in.


 
  
 If you are using a $150 dac I doubt you are hearing what even the stock M Stage can do.You would find that even the stock version will scale very well with a much better dac. I agree with you I would go for the dac upgrade first.


----------



## Chris J

chicolom said:


> Maybe my problem is I'm _only_ using a $150 DAC, and I should first throw several hundred more dollars into a DAC before I will be able hear a difference between a $10 and a $25 opamp.
> 
> It also doesn't make any sense to me how 2 opamps with an adapter would sound any better than a single _dual_ opamp that is already designed for specifically for that application and which drops right in.


 
  
 You could argue that two single Op Amps on an adapter may sound worse than one dual Op Amp without an adapter board.
 An adapter just adds more parasitic elements to the circuit.


----------



## Chris J

chodi said:


> Honestly, I found it hard to believe and I am listening to it. I been around this audiophile game for a long time and I have never seen such a price/value component. When I took the M Stage out of the box it had the Tam class a mod installed and it sounded terrible to me. I put the stock opamp in and I said this is what all the fuss is about. It sounded quite good for a cheap ss amp but it was no serious competition for my other amps. Then I did some opamp rolling and I heard changes but nothing really exciting. Got the part in with the dual LME49710HA and WOW!
> 
> I listen mostly to classical music although I do have a wide variety of music in my files. The most obvious aspects of this change are the presentation of the soundstage and the transparency. This is far beyond anything I would call a subtle change. For less than $30 this mod transformed the M Stage into something really special for me. It is the most neutral sound I have ever heard from a headphone amp.


 
  
 Try swapping all the Op Amps back and forth a few more times.
 I'm rather surprised that swapping Op Amps makes that much difference.
 Call me skeptical!
  
 Keep in mind that the Op Amp in the M Stage is followed by a discrete transistor output stage.


----------



## Redshift Rider

I've played around with some popular opamps in both soundcard and m-stage. I'm definitely not as experienced as some wizards in that huge opamp thread, but this upgrade is by far the most dramatic to my ears. Not even close.


----------



## Chodi

redshift rider said:


> I've played around with some popular opamps in both soundcard and m-stage. I'm definitely not as experienced as some wizards in that huge opamp thread, but this upgrade is by far the most dramatic to my ears. Not even close.


 
  
 I agree and it makes me wonder if they are doing something other than just mounting two stock opamps on a custom pcb. The difference is too dramatic.


----------



## mvrk10256

If anyone wants to let their M-stage go, please shoot me a PM. I have been trying to grab one rather unsuccessfully.


----------



## blueangel2323

chodi said:


> I agree and it makes me wonder if they are doing something other than just mounting two stock opamps on a custom pcb. The difference is too dramatic.


 
 Indeed. The difference between the dual op amp and mounting two singles on the adaptor sounds too big.
  


mvrk10256 said:


> If anyone wants to let their M-stage go, please shoot me a PM. I have been trying to grab one rather unsuccessfully.


 
 PM'ed you.


----------



## Chris J

mvrk10256 said:


> If anyone wants to let their M-stage go, please shoot me a PM. I have been trying to grab one rather unsuccessfully.


 
  
 I PM'd you too.
  
 Everyone in Toronto is selling their M Stage (just kidding!)


----------



## mvrk10256

Shipping is way cheaper if you just run across the border to drop it in the mail. Lol. Pmed you back.


----------



## blueangel2323

Toronto is like a 2 hour drive away from the border though, so after spending the time and gas money the difference in shipping costs will probably be moot. lol


----------



## Shini44

just ordered "LME49710HA X2 + Adaptor" and "1pcs DIP8 Single to DIP8 Dual Opamp Adaptor+Socket Gold Plated" so i be able to test more opamps with the M-Stage    will be using the Yulong D100 MKII as a DAC and the headphone is TH600.


----------



## proton56

Hi
  
 You should try others chips too, for the price ...


----------



## mvrk10256

blueangel2323 said:


> Toronto is like a 2 hour drive away from the border though, so after spending the time and gas money the difference in shipping costs will probably be moot. lol


 
 Ya. I was assuming you guys periodically go across the border for other business. I know plenty of guys that go across the border to get car parts and stuff - maybe once a month or two.


----------



## Shini44

proton56 said:


> Hi
> 
> You should try others chips too, for the price ...


 
  
 so far i only got OP627x2 , will test it 1st then move to test the LME49710HAx2.


----------



## Maxvla

LT1364 is just a few dollars, no adapter needed.


----------



## Shini44

maxvla said:


> LT1364 is just a few dollars, no adapter needed.


 
  
 can you describe the sound? smooth? warm? nice treble/highs?  cause that what i am into.


----------



## Maxvla

From yesterday:


http://www.head-fi.org/t/475618/matrix-m-stage-amp-review-simple-cheap-and-excellent/4320#post_9789582


----------



## Xprime4

I'm using the m-stage to power mainly my hd650. Current opamp is op627, any other suggestion? they do sound great from that combo and there less veil than from any other combo i've tried with the hd650


----------



## Chris J

xprime4 said:


> I'm using the m-stage to power mainly my hd650. Current opamp is op627, any other suggestion? they do sound great from that combo and there less veil than from any other combo i've tried with the hd650




The LM4562 is a very popular Op Amp with M Stage Op Amp rollers.
To me it sounds a bit more open and crisp than the stock Op Amp or the OP627.


----------



## blueangel2323

Agreed, the crisper treble of the LM4562 will be great for the HD650. Never try the class A biasing mod as it's already way too warm. With the HD650 that would be a complete disaster.


----------



## Shini44

guys do i need 2x LM4562 or i should use one on the M-Stage


----------



## elwappo99

shini44 said:


> guys do i need 2x LM4562 or i should use one on the M-Stage


 
  
http://www.ti.com/product/lm4562
  
 Only need one. It's a dual channel opamp.


----------



## nickwin

chicolom said:


> I've tried a couple op-amps and the changes have always been minor, and certainly nothing like what you're describing.
> 
> I don't hear that much difference between the stock op-amp and the LM4562 I have in there now.




I haven't tried the stock OP AMP but the difference between the class a opa627 I got from Tam Audio and the lm4562 was certainly not minor to my ears at all. Opa627 was warm colored and muddy IMO and had a totally different tonality than lm4562. Maybe stock is closer to lm4562?


----------



## nickwin

chris j said:


> You could argue that two single Op Amps on an adapter may sound worse than one dual Op Amp without an adapter board.
> An adapter just adds more parasitic elements to the circuit.




This is how I look at it too. It also mirrors my personal experience going from opa627 (dual) to lm4562 (single). I wouldn't mind trying this lm49710x2 though.


----------



## blueangel2323

nickwin said:


> I haven't tried the stock OP AMP but the difference between the class a opa627 I got from Tam Audio and the lm4562 was certainly not minor to my ears at all. Opa627 was warm colored and muddy IMO and had a totally different tonality than lm4562. Maybe stock is closer to lm4562?


 
 The class A mod is indeed very warm. I think the normal opa627 might be better? And the stock is pretty close to the lm4562, with the exception of the treble.


----------



## Shini44

elwappo99 said:


> http://www.ti.com/product/lm4562
> 
> Only need one. It's a dual channel opamp.


 
  
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Texas-Instruments/LM4562NA-NOPB/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMtCHixnSjNA6JlKxGj6zye%252bDw5UwZXQkUk%3d
  
  
 same? i don't think so :/  why does they have the same code yet not the same shape?


----------



## elwappo99

shini44 said:


> elwappo99 said:
> 
> 
> > http://www.ti.com/product/lm4562
> ...


 
  
 Yup, they are the same. You need the DIP8 package, which is what you have linked on mouser. 
  
 The link on TI shows the SOIC package. Same identical operation, different size/shape.


----------



## Shini44

elwappo99 said:


> Yup, they are the same. You need the DIP8 package, which is what you have linked on mouser.
> 
> The link on TI shows the SOIC package. Same identical operation, different size/shape.


 
  
 is the LME48710 is a single version of the LME4562?


----------



## Chodi

shini44 said:


> is the LME48710 is a single version of the LME4562?


 
  
 You should try using the search function. Here is a link that clears some of this up for you:
  
http://www.head-fi.org/t/542563/asus-essence-one-headphone-amp-dac-cebit-2011/1005


----------



## proton56

Have you chek if the schema is compatible with the LME4710, the 627 is a jfet and the LME4710 is a bipolar ?
  
 You can have noise and continus courant if you put a bipolar instead a jfet...
 When I buy, chips, I take several ships.
 The LME49860 have been prefered to the LME49710 on several discussions (similar sound but more natural, better mid, better on the voices, more soft).
 The ADA4627 have been prefered to the OPA627 on several discussions (similar sound but more defined).
 My prefered are OPA211 and OPA1611 (more soft).

 Good tests
 Proton


----------



## Xprime4

I just tried the stock opamp since i had the amp with the 627 already installed and the difference is quite big. The stock one make the music less dynamics imo.
  
 I ordered a LM4562, but until i get it i'll be putting the 627 back for sure


----------



## Chodi

xprime4 said:


> I just tried the stock opamp since i had the amp with the 627 already installed and the difference is quite big. The stock one make the music less dynamics imo.
> 
> I ordered a LM4562, but until i get it i'll be putting the 627 back for sure


 
 Curious about what you are using for a dac and headphones? I agree with you in one respect; I also hear a big difference between the op627 and the stock opamp. Did you buy that op627 as a class A mod from Tam?


----------



## Chris J

proton56 said:


> Have you chek if the schema is compatible with the LME4710, the 627 is a jfet and the LME4710 is a bipolar ?
> 
> You can have noise and continus courant if you put a bipolar instead a jfet...
> When I buy, chips, I take several ships.
> ...





Depends, depends, depends.....

Bipolar Junction Transistors can have lower noise than JFETs.
As for the idle current, again.....it depends, could be more could be less.
A lotof guys do a Class A mod which increase the bias current on the OP627.

But you always need to confirm that any replacement Op Amp you are using has the same pin out and it Must Be Unity Gain STABLE to prevent oscillation.


----------



## proton56

Bipolar Junction Transistors can have lower noise than JFETs."
  
 Depends of the resistance before the opa, depends of the schema, I had had a bad experience with the remplacment of a JFET with a Bipolar.
 The noise was not realy a probleme, but the continus curent was...I have changed the resistance before the opa and it's ok, sometime we have to change the schema for the opa.

 The oscillation is not the only risk, and it's can be corrected if you study the theory and the datasheet (adding caps etc..).
 Some opa can remplace similar opa without any risk, we can find the right match on inernet.
 Generally I think it's more safe not to inverse JFET and Bipolar, but I am not electronician...
 I would just explain than rolling amp can be dangerous, and the opa are rarely at there best in a schema not made for them.
 But we can experiment the sound of an opa on several schema, it's always the same nature, and we can find the sound than we prefer.
  
 The matrix can be safe for a lot of opa, I don't know.


----------



## Shini44

blueangel2323 said:


> I just swapped the stock opamp for the free LM4562 sample that I received from TI. To my ears, the first thing I noticed was that the LM4562 makes the treble more delicate. Thinner, sharper, and more defined. Actually, a better word would be crisper. It sounds very crisp. The stock opamp sounded more "diffuse" and "atmosheric" in the treble. It's a bit analogous to tighter, faster bass with sharp impact, as opposed to fatter, more resonant bass with duller impact. Except... in the treble. Sorry if I'm not expressing myself very clearly; sound is hard to describe


 
  


chris j said:


> I fully agree with your description of the LM4562.
> And I know what you mean, sound is hard to describe, I'm terrible when it comes to describing sound too!


 
 Thanks!! will comment on that too once i test this setup


----------



## Chris J

proton56 said:


> Bipolar Junction Transistors can have lower noise than JFETs."
> 
> Depends of the resistance before the opa, depends of the schema, I had had a bad experience with the remplacment of a JFET with a Bipolar.
> 
> ...





All of this is more or less true, but there are always exceptions
i'm 99% sure that the LM4562 has BJT inputs.........

In theory, you can usually get lower noise with a BJT input stage than with a JFET input stage.


----------



## Magicman74

shini44 said:


> can you describe the sound? smooth? warm? nice treble/highs?  cause that what i am into.


 Do you have a LM4562? The LT1364 sounds almost the same, just a little bit deeper in the Bass and a little more refined in the Treble. A tad more air all around.
These are the only 2 opamps I use in the M-Stage. They sound the best to me, I have an older one that came stock with the LM4562, I haven't read the whole tread, but I have no hum issues or anything some posters were talking about. My Stage is dead silent, no hum notta...The only thing is the LT runs a little hotter, but the stage is a bit hot anyway. For my Senns, I use the LT, Denons and others the LM. LT used to send samples, so you can get the LT's free...Don't know if they do it anymore..But they are cheap, a few bucks maybe?, shipping is most likely more.


----------



## proton56

I prefer the sound of the LT1364 to the lm4562, the sound is one of the more neutral for me.
 Its fast sound, with a lot of détails, but it's not my prefered, some new chips are better, with lower distorton.
 His spec. are good, It's  very fast amp (high slew-rate), it have low distortion.
 It can load some hard resitances, it's powerful.
 he become hot in normal functionnement.
  
 But it's not a drop in replacement, It will oscillate in many circuits that are stable with the more common audio op amps. Mine is burned...
  
 It can be a good opa if it's safe with the matrix.


----------



## Shini44

magicman74 said:


> Do you have a LM4562? The LT1364 sounds almost the same, just a little bit deeper in the Bass and a little more refined in the Treble. A tad more air all around.
> These are the only 2 opamps I use in the M-Stage. They sound the best to me, I have an older one that came stock with the LM4562, I haven't read the whole tread, but I have no hum issues or anything some posters were talking about. My Stage is dead silent, no hum notta...The only thing is the LT runs a little hotter, but the stage is a bit hot anyway. For my Senns, I use the LT, Denons and others the LM. LT used to send samples, so you can get the LT's free...Don't know if they do it anymore..But they are cheap, a few bucks maybe?, shipping is most likely more.


 
  
 lol! i've just ordered the LM4562 , wish you typed about the LT1364 yesterday  the problem is that i live in dubai -.-''

 so the treble/highs are crispier on the LT? or? i like the treble/highs the most :3
  
LT1364CN8-ND or LT1364CN8#PBF-ND
  
 will test it for sure after the LM4562 , also i need one to replace the opamp right? 

 how long to burn in the M-Stage + LM4562? so i know when to test the LT1354


----------



## proton56

I don't know if the LM4562 have BJT inputs, I have read it's a bipolar.

 When I have use it instead a JFET, the source resitance was hight, (3.3M), and I had a problem of cc.
  
 I have change the resistance, the cc was lower, but I never heard any difference.
 I have read that bipolar have bad noise spec. with high source resistance.
 I imagine that the noise is not so important for the sound.
  
 I think we could do some simulations with TINA etc.
  
  
 I just try to explain what is dangerous, as I would like someone has explained me before I had made a mistake....


----------



## Chris J

proton56 said:


> I don't know if the LM4562 have BJT inputs, I have read it's a bipolar.
> 
> When I have use it instead a JFET, the source resitance was hight, (3.3M), and I had a problem of cc.
> 
> ...


 
  
 BJT = bipolar
  
 BJT means Bipolar Junction Transistor.
  
 An Op Amp with JFET inputs will have a very high input impedance and negligible input current: I think that is what you are referring to when you talk about the continuous current?
  
 The whole noise thing is very complicated,
 Op Amps have a noise current spec and noise voltage spec.which interacts with the input resistors and feedback resistors used in the Op Amp circuit.
 So what has less noise? JFET input or BJT input Op Amp?  It's complicated and it depends on several factors. JFETs often have more noise in the lower frequencies.
 There's a guy named Walter Jung who wrote a book called "The Op Amp Cookbook".
 It's a reference standard on the whole subject of Op Amp circuits.
 Lots of detail on this subject in there!
  
 But you are correct, you can't just substitute any Op Amp for another one, there are lots of pitfalls................


----------



## DaemonSire

Any further feedback on the *LME49710HA X2 + Adaptor* opamp? http://www.ebay.ca/itm/LME49710HA-X2-Adaptor-/180872434827?pt=US_Amplifier_Parts_Components&hash=item2a1cd6548b&_uhb=1
  
 A few pages back there were some excellent opinions on this opamp compared to both the LM4562 and OPA627 (which I currently have both).
  
 Just wondering if it is worth shelling out the $30 or should I just be happy with what I have...this is Head-Fi though so that never happens does it?


----------



## Chodi

daemonsire said:


> Any further feedback on the *LME49710HA X2 + Adaptor* opamp? http://www.ebay.ca/itm/LME49710HA-X2-Adaptor-/180872434827?pt=US_Amplifier_Parts_Components&hash=item2a1cd6548b&_uhb=1
> 
> A few pages back there were some excellent opinions on this opamp compared to both the LM4562 and OPA627 (which I currently have both).
> 
> Just wondering if it is worth shelling out the $30 or should I just be happy with what I have...this is Head-Fi though so that never happens does it?


 
  
 Small price for a noticeable improvement. The positive comments I made earlier stand. I listen mostly to classical music and this combo does it for me. I never thought I would find a $300 ss amp that worked this well. I own some good tube amps and I find I enjoy listening to the Matrix just as much. Never thought that would happen.


----------



## elwappo99

daemonsire said:


> Any further feedback on the *LME49710HA X2 + Adaptor* opamp? http://www.ebay.ca/itm/LME49710HA-X2-Adaptor-/180872434827?pt=US_Amplifier_Parts_Components&hash=item2a1cd6548b&_uhb=1
> 
> A few pages back there were some excellent opinions on this opamp compared to both the LM4562 and OPA627 (which I currently have both).
> 
> Just wondering if it is worth shelling out the $30 or should I just be happy with what I have...this is Head-Fi though so that never happens does it?


 
  
 I believe a bit back someone state the LME49720 is the same as the LME49710. They can be had for a lot less.


----------



## Chodi

elwappo99 said:


> I believe a bit back someone state the LME49720 is the same as the LME49710. They can be had for a lot less.


 
  
 I believe in this case you are paying for the implementation on a custom pcb. If you have the soldering skills and the passion for DIY I guess it is possible to duplicate the results for some savings. Wasn't worth it to me to save $15.


----------



## elwappo99

chodi said:


> elwappo99 said:
> 
> 
> > I believe a bit back someone state the LME49720 is the same as the LME49710. They can be had for a lot less.
> ...


 
  
 Someone check my work here, but I got mine for free, and digikey has them at a pretty low price:
  
http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en?pv1291=862&FV=fff40027%2Cfff800dd&k=LME49720&mnonly=0&newproducts=0&ColumnSort=0&page=1&quantity=0&ptm=0&fid=0&pageSize=25


----------



## Chris J

elwappo99 said:


> I believe a bit back someone state the LME49720 is the same as the LME49710. They can be had for a lot less.




The LM49710 is a single Op Amp.

The LM49720 is a dual Op Amp.

The LM49720 is the same Op Amp as the LM4562.


----------



## Redshift Rider

To clarify further:
  
 ----LM4562, LME49720NA,LME49860NA are duals, "plastic" opamps. 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/521972/lm4562-lme49720-lme49860-do-they-sound-different-to-you
 LM4562 and LME49720NA sound the same to me. Haven't heard LME49860NA.
 ----Single version of these is LME49710NA, also "plastic" opamp. Haven't heard them. No idea if they sound different than the plastic dual versions.
  
 ----LME49720HA is a dual "metal can" opamp and it sounds different than the plastic dual versions. 
 ----Single version of LME49720HA is LME49710HA. They sound different according to other people when used in various different applications. I will know for myself as i ordered another 2xLME49710HA+Adaptor to use and compare in the soundcard and also compare them in m-stage.


----------



## Shini44

so LT1364 vs  LM4562, what do you guys think?

 so far i heard only one person saying that LT is almost the same yet slightly better Treble & Bass


----------



## elwappo99

chris j said:


> elwappo99 said:
> 
> 
> > I believe a bit back someone state the LME49720 is the same as the LME49710. They can be had for a lot less.
> ...


 
  
 Oops! Yeah, I was in a rush when I wrote that and didn't explain it well. The ebay listing was for two SOIC type onto a single DIP adapter. It seems easier to just grab one dual channel LM49720 and toss that in. Plus, if you're a student you can get free ones 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 I'm not super well versed in opamp theory, but I don't think there should be any difference between getting a single LM49720  vs having two LM49710  on an adapter.


----------



## chicolom

redshift rider said:


> ----LME49720HA is a* dual "metal can" opamp and it sounds different than the plastic dual versions. *
> ----Single version of LME49720HA is LME49710HA. They sound different according to other people when used in various different applications. I *will know for myself as i ordered another 2xLME49710HA+Adaptor *to use and compare in the soundcard and also compare them in m-stage.


 
  
  
 Let us know if the metal can thing really makes a difference over the plastic LM4562.  I'm still skeptical.


----------



## Redshift Rider

@Chicolom 
 I have already posted in this thread that my impressions are in line with Chodi's. 2x49710HA > LM4562
  
 What i'm interested in, specifically, is the difference between going 2x singles vs 1 dual of the same opamp. 
 What i could gather reading is that 2 singles are usually favoured over dual version (for any opamp, but in different applications) and what people often describe is clearer stereo image.
 When i wrote "i will know for myself" i had 2x49710HA vs 49720HA battle in mind


----------



## chicolom

redshift rider said:


> What i'm interested in, specifically, is the difference between going 2x singles vs 1 dual of the same opamp.
> What i could gather reading is that 2 singles are usually favoured over dual version (for any opamp, but in different applications) and what people often describe is clearer stereo image.


 
  
 For whatever it's worth I've tried 2x OPA602BP on an adapter and didn't hear much difference compared to the stock OPA2134.
  
 It's the one on the left here.
  

  
  
  
 I know it's not a comparison of the _same _op-amp, but it's still 2 opamps vs a similar single dual opamp and I didn't hear much difference.  That's why I'm skeptical about the 2x LME49710 being such an improvement, unless for whatever reason the "metal can" is somehow improving things...


----------



## Chodi

chicolom said:


> I know it's not a comparison of the _same _op-amp, but it's still 2 opamps vs a similar single dual opamp and I didn't hear much difference.  That's why I'm skeptical about the 2x LME49710 being such an improvement, unless for whatever reason the "metal can" is somehow improving things...


 
 We've already had this discussion. Just reference the mod I bought and then look at your photo. The difference in the mounting method alone should be obvious. For less than $30 you could put this big decision to rest instead of trying to get conformation from someone else who made this huge investment. Since your associated equipment is different than mine I think it would be impossible to predict your results.


----------



## chicolom

chodi said:


> We've already had this discussion. Just reference the mod I bought and then look at your photo. The difference in the mounting method alone should be obvious.


 
  
  
 I'm well aware that the 2x OPA602BP pic I posted is completely different from the premade 2x LME49710 opamp you got off eBay.  I was saying that in my experience 2 single opamps isn't necessarily better than a single dual opamp.


----------



## Chris J

chicolom said:


> I'm well aware that the 2x OPA602BP pic I posted is completely different from the premade 2x LME49710 opamp you got off eBay.  I was saying that in my experience 2 single opamps isn't necessarily better than a single dual opamp.




I would also argue that anyone who wants to go down this path of thinking may as well say this cable sounds different than that cable, etc. etc.


----------



## DaemonSire

Just so I'm clear from the various posts:
  
 LME49710 is a single opamp so you need two.
 LME49720 is the same opamp as LME49710 except it is dual
 AND LME49720 = LM4562?
  
 So 2x LME49710 =1x LME49720 = 1x LM4562?
  
 Yet the LME49710/LME49720 are metal compared to the plastic LM4562 which some say changes the sound.
  
 And some say that having 2x single opamp on a board has a different sound than 1x dual opamp.  (Note I said different...not better or worse  )
  
 Does that about sum it up?


----------



## Chris J

daemonsire said:


> Just so I'm clear from the various posts:
> 
> LME49710 is a single opamp so you need two.
> LME49720 is the same opamp as LME49710 except it is dual
> ...




That basically sums it up, but you can get almost any of those in a metal can or in the various plastic cases: SMD or 8 DIP.


----------



## Redshift Rider

daemonsire said:


> Just so I'm clear from the various posts:
> 
> LME49710 is a single opamp so you need two. *Correct. LME49710NA (dip8, plastic) or LME49710HA (TO99, metal)*
> 
> ...


----------



## Shini44

Just bought this :3
http://tamaudio.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=111
  
 also my LM4562 is going to be pickup tomorrow  

 will test the M-Stage with OPA627 1st cause i know how does it sound, just wana see the fsotex TH600 with it, using Yulong D100 MKII as the DAC here, i really hate the sound of D100's amp -.-''

 then i will go and test the LM4562 when i am ready to do so.


----------



## Chodi

shini44 said:


> Just bought this :3
> http://tamaudio.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=111
> 
> also my LM4562 is going to be pickup tomorrow
> ...


 
  
 That is exactly what I bought from Tam. I will be interested in your comments. I've already posted my comments. Before I changed out the class "A" mod supplied I was not happy.


----------



## Shini44

got everything but the M-stage  will be here in 6 days :/ i got one question though, the opa627 is warm right? where the LM4562 is bright, i know that both has nice treble though, for me i hate the brightness cause it is fatiguing, and i already using TH600 here  which is bright :/ but i love the treble/highs the most so i will make sure i test the LM4562 one i finish testing opa627


----------



## Xprime4

I just ordered a Burson ha-160 to replace my M-stage as my bedtime amplifier. I hope a get a signifiant difference, otherwise the m-stage can stack up to a 800$ amplifier


----------



## Chodi

xprime4 said:


> I just ordered a Burson ha-160 to replace my M-stage as my bedtime amplifier. I hope a get a signifiant difference, otherwise the m-stage can stack up to a 800$ amplifier


 
  
 If you have been listening to the M Stage with the opa627 the Burson will surely be different, but will it be better is the real question. Interested to hear your results.


----------



## Chris J

shini44 said:


> got everything but the M-stage  will be here in 6 days :/ i got one question though, the opa627 is warm right? where the LM4562 is bright, i know that both has nice treble though, for me i hate the brightness cause it is fatiguing, and i already using TH600 here  which is bright :/ but i love the treble/highs the most so i will make sure i test the LM4562 one i finish testing opa627


 
  
 The difference in sound between the '627 and the '4562 is very, very slight.
  
 Whatever Op Amp you use, the M Stage still sounds like the M Stage.
 I wouldn't be afraid of the LM4562 if you don't like brightness.


----------



## Xprime4

I received my burson few hours ago and honestly i wished the m-stage was there up  to its level so i could return it and my wallet would have been happier.
 ,
 It's in a different league honestly, soundstage wise it makes the hd650 shine like never before. Not a hint of 'sennheiser veil and a quite surprising treble extension up there.
  
 It looks beautiful, feel like ultra high-end quality and will steal alot of my listening time for the next weeks.
 M-stage on the other hand was great for it's price, but i'm glad i've upgraded.
  
 I might just keep it for my computer setup anyway, at least a use for its dac


----------



## elwappo99

xprime4 said:


> I received my burson few hours ago and honestly i wished the m-stage was there up  to its level so i could return it and my wallet would have been happier.
> ,
> It's in a different league honestly, soundstage wise it makes the hd650 shine like never before. Not a hint of 'sennheiser veil and a quite surprising treble extension up there.
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 Some pretty strong comments there 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 What amplifier are you coming from for the M-stage?


----------



## Xprime4

elwappo99 said:


> Some pretty strong comments there
> 
> What amplifier are you coming from for the M-stage?




Prior to the m-stage i wa using an e17. Big improvement too
I haven-t A/B the burson and the m-stage yet but i'll do it once i get some time


----------



## elwappo99

xprime4 said:


> Prior to the m-stage i wa using an e17. Big improvement too
> I haven-t A/B the burson and the m-stage yet but i'll do it once i get some time


 
  
 Great interested to hear your thoughts. I had a Soloist for awhile alongside my M-stage.


----------



## bracko

xprime4 said:


> I haven-t A/B the burson and the m-stage yet but i'll do it once i get some time


 
  
 Do you really need to A/B them? Judging by your previous comments, you have already made up your mind.


----------



## tdockweiler

How would you describe the Matrix M-Stage compared to the O2? Trying to get an idea as to what the M-Stage sounds like.
  
 Would you say that perhaps it's a tad fuller sounding and has slightly smoother treble? That's my idea.
  
 I hate warm or dark sounding amps, but I'm sure there is a good chance i'd like the M-Stage since it's said to not be all that dark at all. Some slight warmth is ok (like the E17 or E9).
  
 Is it darker than the E9? E9 isn't dark but seemed to have rolled off treble (that's audible slightly).
  
 Right now I'm thinking of getting the M-Stage, Leckerton UHA-6S MKII or the Headroom Micro DAC.
  
 My perfect sounding amp is the Micro with Astrodyne. Sounds even more transparent than the O2 to me. This is after 3 year of use.
 O2 and that are very similar sounding really.
  
 I'm a bit worried the HD-650 will be too congested or warm with the M-Stage, but should be OK.
  
 I really want a Micro Amp killer for under $350. I don't think I can do it! Closest i've come is the O2 (!)
  
 Apparently Micro Amp, E9 and M-Stage all share the stock op-amps. Doesn't mean much though.
  
 Haha maybe the M-Stage will sound like a near clone of the Micro Amp? That'd be funny.
  
 BTW when you switch sources is it stupid easy to hear the changes with the M-Stage? I love this about the O2 and Micro.
  
 EDIT: I just bought the Micro DAC. I'm kind of a Headroom fanboy and have loved the Micro Amp since day one and couldn't resist. I'm sure i'll try the M-Stage some day.


----------



## Chodi

tdockweiler said:


> How would you describe the Matrix M-Stage compared to the O2? Trying to get an idea as to what the M-Stage sounds like.
> 
> Would you say that perhaps it's a tad fuller sounding and has slightly smoother treble? That's my idea.
> 
> ...


 
  
 If you use the M Stage with the op627 class A mod I promise it will sound dark and warm. Some people like that sound but it is not for me. The stock opamp while not the best is much more neutral.


----------



## Shini44

k guys -.-'' the M-Stage is here, the Yulong D100 MKII is the DAC, i used the line out RCA L-R(yulong) and connected it to input 1 RCA input(M-Stage) 1st i heard big noise floor -.-'' played with the game and it does either stop or be there, while it did stop when i go to test the sound on the PC i hear a very low sound on one channel only, when i go with the no noise gain i hear nothing at all

 did i do something wrong? -.-''
  
 using TH600  headphone
  
 update: tested it from the DVD player too, some gain setting = no sound and when there is a very very very low sound the noise floor is there :/ 
  
 update: turned out to be that the opamp jumped out a little due shipping XD i am glad that it could be fixed 
  
 update: NOW I AM ENJOYING THE TREBLE!!!  (opa627x2) the Yulong D100 MKII's amp section had a very very very boring sound!! -.-''


----------



## Xprime4

I never tried the stock opamp until around two weeks ago. I wanted to see how this little piece could change the overall sound of the amp.
  
 Stock sound pretty much like most   ok solid state amp while the opa627 clearly borrow the fun sound signature of a tube amp. I find the sound much more enjoyable with my hd650 paired with the opa627. The bass impact is clearly an upgrade from the stock opamp. The treble is laid back yet more refinated than stock.  Soundstage seems pretty similar in both pieces.
  
 As far as burson ha-160 vs m-stage it's not a fair comparaison but i'd say the m-stage is awesome for it's price ratio. I'm now  a believer in rolling opamp and can't believe how it chance the whole amp sound signature by that much. I've got a lm4562NA on it's way but i find it hard to think it will take opa627 place.
  
 M-stage opa627 has more fun bass impact than burson ha-160. Burson has better bass texture and extension , awesome  mids and the most impressive treble clarity and extension i've got to ear in a headphone system so far.
  
 The matrix stays here, in my computer setup


----------



## elwappo99

techboy said:


> Has anybody tried both Asgard 2 and Matrix M Stage?
> 
> Which is:
> 
> ...


 
  
 Is it too soon to bump this question? Anyone been able to compare the two?


----------



## tdockweiler

It seems there is not many comparisons of the Matrix M-Stage to anything else.
 I've heard comparisons to the E9, but not to the O2, Asgard 2 or Micro Amp.
 I guess the M-Stage is supposed to be more transparent than the E9.
  
 I always wanted to hear the M-Stage but I imagine it's too close to the sound of my Micro Amp to be worthwhile.
  
 I sure hope the M-Stage is better than the Asgard 2.


----------



## Change is Good

tdockweiler said:


> It seems there is not many comparisons of the Matrix M-Stage to anything else.
> I've heard comparisons to the E9, but not to the O2, Asgard 2 or Micro Amp.
> I guess the M-Stage is supposed to be more transparent than the E9.
> 
> ...




Compared ti the iCan, the M-Stage with lm4562 sounds more open and slightly less engaging. Even with the iCan's 3D switch on high the M-Stage still sounds like it has more width and depth. As for engagement, the iCan's well behaved bass boosts are a plus (especially when paired with the 3D boost).

The M-Stage sounds more refined but the iCan is more "fun" because of its switches. Hence why I keep both because the M-Stage pairs extremely well with my K712 on my gaming rig.


----------



## zting

Hi guys, does anyone have any idea how this matrix m stage amp with dac compare with Yulong D100 mk2? I am thinking of getting either combo but still unsure. I will be using it to drive akg q701 and westone 4r :S
  
 I can get both of them about the same price with yulong d100 mk2 at about 15 dollars cheaper.
  
 what do you guys think?


----------



## Shini44

zting said:


> Hi guys, does anyone have any idea how this matrix m stage amp with dac compare with Yulong D100 mk2? I am thinking of getting either combo but still unsure. I will be using it to drive akg q701 and westone 4r :S
> 
> I can get both of them about the same price with yulong d100 mk2 at about 15 dollars cheaper.
> 
> what do you guys think?


 
 i got this setup , it is warm, but not too warm to make the treble goes off, make sure you get opa627ap x2 for the M-Stage or any other opamp else the M-Stage's stock will sound exactly the same as the Yulong's amp which is way too boring/lifeless for me -.-'' , tamaudio got the amp with the 627x2 already installed, and oh i am using TH600 and i am enjoying it a lot ^^


----------



## blueangel2323

shini44 said:


> i got this setup , it is warm, but not too warm to make the treble goes off, make sure you get opa627ap x2 for the M-Stage or any other opamp else the M-Stage's stock will sound exactly the same as the Yulong's amp which is way too boring/lifeless for me -.-'' , tamaudio got the amp with the 627x2 already installed, and oh i am using TH600 and i am enjoying it a lot ^^


 
 I don't like the 627x2 because it's too warm for me. I prefer the more neutral and open sounding LM4562. But everyone has different tastes so do what works for you


----------



## Shini44

blueangel2323 said:


> I don't like the 627x2 because it's too warm for me. I prefer the more neutral and open sounding LM4562. But everyone has different tastes so do what works for you


 
 i have the LM4562 , i wana try it but for some reason when i try to play with the volume on M-Stage i get "bzzzzzzzzzzz , hissing" so annoying -.-'' i got mine from Digi-Key so i am sure about the quality :/ else i would been enjoying better Treble by now :<


----------



## nickwin

blueangel2323 said:


> I don't like the 627x2 because it's too warm for me. I prefer the more neutral and open sounding LM4562. But everyone has different tastes so do what works for you


 
 +1  I have the D100 MKII and M stage and I think its a great combo, but I did not like it when I had the opa627 in the M stage, way to muddy and warm.  I now have lm4562 and really enjoy the m stage d100 combo.  IMO it is about as close to neutral as you can get with super detail and resolution.  I find that the m stage has a fuller and slightly warmer sound than the d100 built in amp.


----------



## blueangel2323

nickwin said:


> +1  I have the D100 MKII and M stage and I think its a great combo, but I did not like it when I had the opa627 in the M stage, way to muddy and warm.  I now have lm4562 and really enjoy the m stage d100 combo.  IMO it is about as close to neutral as you can get with super detail and resolution.  I find that the m stage has a fuller and slightly warmer sound than the d100 built in amp.


 
 The LM4562 makes a pretty significant difference to the M-Stage, especially for the negligent cost. The stock op amp sounds almost identical to the D100 amp, but going from the LM4562 to the D100 the bass was noticeably looser and rumblier with less punch and impact. Not a $300 difference to justify having both the D100 and the M-Stage, but significant nonetheless.


----------



## Shini44

just switched to LM4562, the problem that i mentioned is gone, maybe it was the gain which was on 18db , wasn't cool with TH600  , atm the gain is 10db, time to test this opamp :3

 will i need to burn it in a little? cause it is the 1st 5 min so far and the treble seems less and not enjoyable what so ever unless i need to wait for some burning in :/


----------



## blueangel2323

The treble is a bit thin and sharp at first but opens up after a while. I don't think the actual quantity changes but the quality of the treble is different. It shouldn't take more than a few hours. Chips don't need lengthy burn in like drivers do.


----------



## nickwin

blueangel2323 said:


> The LM4562 makes a pretty significant difference to the M-Stage, especially for the negligent cost. The stock op amp sounds almost identical to the D100 amp, but going from the LM4562 to the D100 the bass was noticeably looser and rumblier with less punch and impact. Not a $300 difference to justify having both the D100 and the M-Stage, but significant nonetheless.


 
 Whether its "worth it" or not is a very subjective call, but I will say that for me the difference was enough to warrant the $250 for the M-stage.  The difference is not drastic, but especially with my k701s the d100 amp seems brighter and thinner to me.  After using the d100 + m stage combo for 6 months its pretty obvious if I go back to the d100 amp.  
  
 That said IMO this area of "mid-fi" is where diminishing returns start to really kick in, so I am not trying to say the difference is really obvious. I just feel its about as much of an improvement as I can get for the money without say trading in headphones.  For example I find the improvement I get from going from the d100 amp the the m stage is about comparable to the improvement I got from going from a HRT music streamer II ($150) to the D100 as a DAC ($400), both being a $250 upgrade.


----------



## amigastar

I have a question,
  
 I have the AKG K501 and a Matrix M-Stage hp amp.
  A:   is it better to set a low gain but have the loudnessknob beyond 12 O'clock (around 1 - 4 o'clock)
  B:   or rather 10db gain setting and have the volume control at 9-13 o'clock?
  
 what do you guys suggest, A or B?


----------



## Change is Good

amigastar said:


> I have a question,
> 
> I have the AKG K501 and a Matrix M-Stage hp amp.
> A:   is it better to set a low gain but have the loudnessknob beyond 12 O'clock (around 1 - 4 o'clock)
> ...


 
  
 I'm not familiar with the K501 but with my K712 it performs the best at +10db to my ears. At +18db it is just as nice in sound (maybe even more engaging) but not as good, technically, because there isn't as much room for volume adjustment.


----------



## elwappo99

amigastar said:


> I have a question,
> 
> I have the AKG K501 and a Matrix M-Stage hp amp.
> A:   is it better to set a low gain but have the loudnessknob beyond 12 O'clock (around 1 - 4 o'clock)
> ...


 
  
 Always best to use lowest gain that you need on an amplifier.


----------



## amigastar

Alright, thanks.
 nonetheless i will have to compare 0db with 10db, but so far i tend to stick with 0db.


----------



## Change is Good

double post*


----------



## Chris J

amigastar said:


> I have a question,
> 
> I have the AKG K501 and a Matrix M-Stage hp amp.
> A:   is it better to set a low gain but have the loudnessknob beyond 12 O'clock (around 1 - 4 o'clock)
> ...


 
 I'm a 10 dB guy with the matrix + Q701.
 The volume control travel works best for me.......at 10 dB, lots of room to turn the volume UP or DOWN.


----------



## mvrk10256

So I just got my HE-400s. 
  
 At 0dB I get great performance on both my HE-400s, and Fostex T50RP. I also get pretty good performance on both my 600 ohm Beyers. 
  
 This little amp does a great job driving just about anything.


----------



## WEeziel

Guys, today when I woke up and put my matrix on again, there is a weird humming sound present. Tried tightening the screw, but I think I overscrewed. Didn't fix the humming nonetheless. Don't know what else to do to fix it. Ideas?


----------



## blueangel2323

weeziel said:


> Guys, today when I woke up and put my matrix on again, there is a weird humming sound present. Tried tightening the screw, but I think I overscrewed. Didn't fix the humming nonetheless. Don't know what else to do to fix it. Ideas?


 
 Which screw?
  
 Is there anything nearby causing interference? Check all your plugs/jacks, and make sure the op amp is tight.


----------



## WEeziel

The bottom one for the capacitor? I think. Op amp is tight, even tried a different one. I have to try the amp somewhere else in the house and see if the problem persists


----------



## okankav

Hi, 

I'll change my Matrix m-stage op-amp . Normally it uses opa2134. I'll cancel this and change with dual ad797brz. I need an adapter for this .

I read lots of post about brown adapter. But I didn't find any photo or link for this. 

Is this adapter suitable for this? or can u share link about any suitable adapter?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=281181174573&ssPageName=ADME:X:AAQ:US:1123 

Thanks


----------



## EinZweiDrei

this is just purely out of curiosity, but how well would a pair of hd800 work with this amp?
 never heard any any sennheiser phone other than the entry level hd555.


----------



## Chodi

einzweidrei said:


> this is just purely out of curiosity, but how well would a pair of hd800 work with this amp?
> never heard any any sennheiser phone other than the entry level hd555.


 
 I'm using the M Stage with T1's but I have tried it with the HD800's and it is remarkably good. It gets very good results that defy the price. I own other amps and I find that the M Stage with my opamp choice can compete with some very high end amps. It actually seems to like high impedance headphones.


----------



## EinZweiDrei

chodi said:


> I'm using the M Stage with T1's but I have tried it with the HD800's and it is remarkably good. It gets very good results that defy the price. I own other amps and I find that the M Stage with my opamp choice can compete with some very high end amps. It actually seems to like high impedance headphones.


 
 how is it with stock opamp with the hd800.


----------



## Chodi

einzweidrei said:


> how is it with stock opamp with the hd800.


 
 Honestly with the stock opamp it is ok but nothing I could live with. My WA-2 is clearly superior when I use the stock opamp in the Matrix. Even the Lafigaro 322C I have is better than the Matrix with the stock opamp. Don't get me wrong, it's not like it's bad just no competitive with real high end equipment using the stock opamp. Just my experience.


----------



## EinZweiDrei

wheres a good place to purchase opamps for the matrix m stage.


----------



## mvrk10256

einzweidrei said:


> wheres a good place to purchase opamps for the matrix m stage.


 
 got mine of ebay. seller in thailand I believe. Took like 3 weeks to get here but the quality was good and the sound was great. 
  
LINK


----------



## EinZweiDrei

i heard you wont need a x2 opamps for m stage. is there a reason not to use a x2 op amp?


----------



## Maxvla

10% off at www.matrix-digi-usa.com

Coupon Code: headfi10

The discount is for all current products on our website and will expire the end of the year (good till Dec 31).


----------



## blueangel2323

einzweidrei said:


> wheres a good place to purchase opamps for the matrix m stage.


 
 You can actually order a free sample of the LM4562 at the Texas Instruments website. Best op amp I've heard with the Matrix (but I've only heard a few).


----------



## Chris J

blueangel2323 said:


> You can actually order a free sample of the LM4562 at the Texas Instruments website. Best op amp I've heard with the Matrix (but I've only heard a few).


 
 and you only need one LM4562 for the Matrix M!


----------



## blueangel2323

chris j said:


> and you only need one LM4562 for the Matrix M!


 
 Yep, just make sure you order the dual version.


----------



## Chris J

blueangel2323 said:


> Yep, just make sure you order the dual version.


 
 Yes, make sure you order the jewel version.
 Or is it the duel version?
  
 LM4562MA is the correct part number.


----------



## Chodi

mvrk10256 said:


> got mine of ebay. seller in thailand I believe. Took like 3 weeks to get here but the quality was good and the sound was great.
> 
> LINK


 
 Totally agree with your suggestion. I'm not sure which of us tried this first but it is by far the best I have tried and well worth the price.


----------



## EinZweiDrei

i have a few low impendence headphones lying around and i want to experiment them on the m stage.
 like the ad700, m50, hd555, ws55 and sr60i.
 do i use the same +10gain for these?
 would it be a good idea to use these low impendence phones on them or will it damage them?
 will switching opamps have any effect on them?

 and also whats the warmest opamp for the m stage. for phones like dt880 and k701/2


----------



## Chris J

einzweidrei said:


> i have a few low impendence headphones lying around and i want to experiment them on the m stage.
> like the ad700, m50, hd555, ws55 and sr60i.
> do i use the same +10gain for these?
> would it be a good idea to use these low impendence phones on them or will it damage them?
> ...


 
  
 Low impedance 'phones would tend to work best with a gain of 0 or 10 dB.
 Those 'phones should be fine with an M Stage.
 No damage should occur.
  
 Changing Op Amps won't have too much of an effect.
 Op Amp rolling has a fairly subtle effect, I like to think you can put in any good Op Amp and it will still sound like an M Stage.


----------



## blueangel2323

opa627 class A biased is very warm, I think too warm for most people. The M-Stage is already slightly warm to begin with, so I would stick with a neutral op amp.


----------



## Chris J

blueangel2323 said:


> opa627 class A biased is very warm, I think too warm for most people. The M-Stage is already slightly warm to begin with, so I would stick with a neutral op amp.



 


Fer wot it's wurth:

I agree with your opinion.
Personally, I'm not a big fan of warming up the M Stage with a slightly warm Class A Op Amp either!


----------



## EinZweiDrei

chris j said:


> blueangel2323 said:
> 
> 
> > opa627 class A biased is very warm, I think too warm for most people. The M-Stage is already slightly warm to begin with, so I would stick with a neutral op amp.
> ...


 
 im looking for something to tame the treble a bit and smooth out the mid range a bit without sacrificing too much detail. because at times, the treble can get unbearable on very bright songs. but im not looking for a laid back sound though.


----------



## Chris J

einzweidrei said:


> im looking for something to tame the treble a bit and smooth out the mid range a bit without sacrificing too much detail. because at times, the treble can get unbearable on very bright songs. but im not looking for a laid back sound though.


 
  
 Either get a second set of headphones or try a tube amp for your Q701s.
 Tube amps don't necessarily sound laid back.


----------



## EinZweiDrei

chris j said:


> Either get a second set of headphones or try a tube amp for your Q701s.
> Tube amps don't necessarily sound laid back.


 
 maybe i should just avoid those songs altogether.


----------



## Chris J

einzweidrei said:


> maybe i should just avoid those songs altogether.




LOL!
It's true!
There are some albums I just avoid with my Q701s!

Some harsh sounding recordings sound better on my Audio Technica 'phones.


----------



## blueangel2323

Why not EQ? Or try a simple mod like some fabric or thin foam between the drivers and your ears.


----------



## Chris J

blueangel2323 said:


> Why not EQ? Or try a simple mod like some fabric or thin foam between the drivers and your ears.




Yeah, sometimes I'll EQ a nasty recording.

Problem is, sometimes I'm just using a CD transport or my iPod Dock into a DAC which them drives a headphone amp, so.........sometimes I can't EQ!


----------



## project86

In case anyone is interested, I just got some info from my contact at Matrix: new products coming! Or, maybe it is more accurate to say new updates/overhauls of existing products. These should be out sometime in December.
  
  
NEW mini-i with DSD\DXD\384kHz support, balanced output, more powerful headphone amp, new display, all new configuration options and control mode, along with a new higher quality aluminum case.



NEW M-Stage HPA-1 Sound quality has been improved and is described as smoother and more dynamic. DC protection has been added to ensure the safety of your headphones. A new aluminum case design. 
  
  

NEW M-Stage HPA-1 w/USB Same as above but, with the PCM1793 DAC and XMOS interface.
  
All prices to be announced... but I'm sure Matrix knows not to deviate too far from their formula of offering great bang for the buck. I can't see the new M-Stage going up to $500 or anything like that. If everything is indeed an improvement as claimed, and it all stays vaguely within the same price bracket, then they could have some very successful new gear on their hands. We'll see. I'll post pics and further info when I get it.


----------



## Fearless1

project86 said:


> In case anyone is interested, I just got some info from my contact at Matrix: new products coming! Or, maybe it is more accurate to say new updates/overhauls of existing products. These should be out sometime in December.
> 
> 
> NEW mini-i with DSD\DXD\384kHz support, balanced output, more powerful headphone amp, new display, all new configuration options and control mode, along with a new higher quality aluminum case.
> ...


 
 As always, I look forward to your review.


----------



## project86

fearless1 said:


> As always, I look forward to your review.


 
  
 I'll definitely keep their new gear in mind for my review schedule.
  
 I'm being told the Matrix Cube is not getting a refresh but is actually going to be discontinued. I guess the lineup is too crowded to support it - maybe they want potential buyers to focus on the new mini-i instead. Hopefully it isn't that much more than the Cube was. Or maybe they consider the M-Stage with built in DAC to be a suitable replacement.


----------



## LaineR

Has anybody else had troubles with the power LED on the front of the unit flickering and generally not working? I only got my amp a few days ago (loving it btw), and the LED died pretty much straight away but every now and then comes back to life.
  
 Asked to return it through the seller on ebay who is asking if i try removing the power cord and plugging in again to see if that fixes it..... -.-


----------



## project86

lainer said:


> Has anybody else had troubles with the power LED on the front of the unit flickering and generally not working? I only got my amp a few days ago (loving it btw), and the LED died pretty much straight away but every now and then comes back to life.
> 
> Asked to return it through the seller on ebay who is asking if i try removing the power cord and plugging in again to see if that fixes it..... -.-




I wish my LED had died.... I'm sick of LEDs. But no, I have not heard if that happening.


----------



## FLguy

Thanks for the heads up!.
  
 After lots of research, I am leaning strongly toward ordering an M-stage. (Or _possibly_ stepping up to the next level of amp circa $650 - although choosing a good all arounder from that batch looks like it may be pretty tough!! .
  
 And so I am leaning toward buying an m-stage for now, and take more time, and hear more of the options before taking the next step... 
  
 Thanks for the info. Please do keep us posted on anything you learn about availability, or any listening impressions, or comparisons.
  
 Thanks!


----------



## LaineR

i delved into entry level audiophilia about a year ago, and bought a HRT Music Streamer 2, LIttle dot Mk2, and a pair of DT990/600, used them for quite some time and been happy on the whole.
  
 Fancied more bass so bought this amp alongside some Ultrason Pro 900's. The amp is definately a next level up from LD Mk2, the bass is tighter the piercing highs are more controlled and not as shrill, and the sound as a whole is cleaner, this is using it with both the Beyers and the Ultrasones.
  
 Buy one and im quite certain you won't regret it


----------



## FLguy

lainer said:


> Buy one and im quite certain you won't regret it


 
  
 Thanks. I most likely will - as soon as I can get more info about the reported new version so I can decide which of these to go for. 
  
 From the comparisons I've been able to find, it seems as though I'd likely have to spend in the $800 - $1000 range to do significantly better - and I think before I do that I'll be upgrading my DAC, phones and related bits, so the more expensive amp will likely wait a bit. Plus, I wouldn't mind having the chance to hear some better gear to convince myself it's worth it first 
  
 If anyone knows of / wants to suggest a better sounding 'all around' headphone amp (capable of driving low and high impedance 'phones) than the M-stage under $700, I'm 'all ears'.
  
 Until then, waiting just a bit (hopefully) for more news / impressions re the new version of the m-stage...


----------



## FLguy

chris j said:


> I only hear a low level hum when I use IEMs with the M Stage.
> ...


 
  
 Interesting ... Mind if I ask what gain settings you tried?
  
 Out of curiosity, do others find that their IEMs hum when used with the m-stage?  Has anyone identified a work around for that with the m-stage (other than using the other / home headphones 
  
 IEMs aren't my main intended use, but I would like to understand whether to expect this if/when IEMs are used for what ever reason(s) ... (experimentation/comparison with a different amp from my portable, etc.)...


----------



## Maxvla

I've been using my UERM with my M-Stage and I'm not getting any hum. I have mine set to 10x gain.


----------



## FLguy

maxvla said:


> I've been using my UERM with my M-Stage and I'm not getting any hum. I have mine set to 10x gain.


 
  
 Cool. Interesting info (to me at least  - thanks


----------



## Chris J

flguy said:


> Interesting ... Mind if I ask what gain settings you tried?
> 
> Out of curiosity, do others find that their IEMs hum when used with the m-stage?  Has anyone identified a work around for that with the m-stage (other than using the other / home headphones
> 
> IEMs aren't my main intended use, but I would like to understand whether to expect this if/when IEMs are used for what ever reason(s) ... (experimentation/comparison with a different amp from my portable, etc.)...


 
  
 I must have tried 10 dB a few months ago when I heard the hum, because I can hear hum at 10 dB.
 I'm using 0 dB right now, can't hear any hum or hiss!
  
 My iBasso D12 also works well with my Shure IEMs.
  
 My FiiO E17 is too noisy for IEMs, you can hear a faint bzzzzzz.


----------



## project86

Update on the M-Stage refresh - it is available now! As you can see at the Matrix USA site, the original model has been completely replaced by this new update. The amp alone is $279 and the version with USB is $319. So not a huge increase over the original. The USB section uses XMOS for handling signals up to 24/192, and then a TI PCM1793 with an LME49720 opamp in the output stage to the amp section. I don't recall what the original DAC used but this one sounds like it could really be something for the small fee they charge. Here are some pics showing the new enclosure:


----------



## Chris J

It looks like the same headphone amplifier in a new box!


----------



## Suguru103

How has it changed apart from appearance?
  
 And how does the M-Stage compare to the Lake People G103? I have a Senn HD600 and i'm deciding between this amp and a Lake People amp. I want neutrality though.. so no tubes.


----------



## elwappo99

That case looks shexy! Knob and M-stage logo look way cleaner. Interior looks.... identical. 
  
 What are the two LEDs indicating?


----------



## chicolom

Ooohh.  The new faceplates looks very nice.  Especially the black one.  Kind of reminds me of the SPL phonitor.
   
I would buy that faceplate and knob and retrofit it on to my M-stage if I could.


----------



## Maxvla

Still the small bad knob setup. Hated trying to turn it so I replaced it with a much larger one and I've been happy ever since.


----------



## project86

Matrix says the sond has improved, they call it smoother and sweeter. Not sure how they accomplished that but a likely candidate is a different stock opamp. That makes sense to me. I think one LED is for power on, the other maybe has to do with USB signal lock? Just guessing here.

To answer the question about Lake People G103 - G103 is a bit warmer and smoother than the old M- Stage was in stock form. It has way more power and is a better match for planar magnetics of all brands. Matrix could be a bit more resolving up top, depending on the opamp choice. Both very good options though.


----------



## mvrk10256

How does one go about buying a lake people product? Searched their site, searched ebay, nothing...


----------



## Suguru103

project86 said:


> Matrix says the sond has improved, they call it smoother and sweeter. Not sure how they accomplished that but a likely candidate is a different stock opamp. That makes sense to me. I think one LED is for power on, the other maybe has to do with USB signal lock? Just guessing here.
> 
> To answer the question about Lake People G103 - G103 is a bit warmer and smoother than the old M- Stage was in stock form. It has way more power and is a better match for planar magnetics of all brands. Matrix could be a bit more resolving up top, depending on the opamp choice. Both very good options though.


 
  
 It's actually warmer? Hmm.. i have an HD600 and i was looking for a neutral amp in the <$300 range. I heard that the M-Stage was a bit warm, which gave me pause. After reading your review of the Lake People G103, which said it gets "out of the way of the music", i was considering it, but it seems it would also be a warm amp. And now Matrix says the sound of the M-Stage is sweeter.... T_T


----------



## FLguy

project86 said:


> Matrix says the sond has improved, they call it smoother and sweeter. Not sure how they accomplished that but a likely candidate is a different stock opamp. That makes sense to me. ....maybe has to do with USB signal lock? Just guessing here.


 
  
 Thanks for the info... Has anyone heard one yet?  Can you share your impression of the difference(s)?


----------



## FLguy

mvrk10256 said:


> How does one go about buying a lake people product? Searched their site, searched ebay, nothing...


 
  
 A search for 'Lake People G103 amplifier' returns both the web site....
  
            http://www.lake-people.de/index.php?id=2&lang=eng&typ=3&nr=g103p
  
 ....and a few discussions / impressions, including this thread:
  
            ~~ Lake People G109 / G103 thread:  http://www.head-fi.org/t/620082/lake-people-g109-g103-thread
  
 Seems to be the same folks that make the (widely respected - and much more expensive) Violectric V200. 
  
 Hope that helps...
  
 (Disclaimer - I have no affiliation with anyone .


----------



## mvrk10256

flguy said:


> A search for 'Lake People G103 amplifier' returns both the web site....
> 
> http://www.lake-people.de/index.php?id=2&lang=eng&typ=3&nr=g103p
> 
> ...


 
 Ya i found those. Their site doesn't have a cart or anything. Maybe made to order.


----------



## elwappo99

project86 said:


> To answer the question about Lake People G103 - G103 is a bit warmer and smoother than the old M- Stage was in stock form. It has way more power and is a better match for planar magnetics of all brands. Matrix could be a bit more resolving up top, depending on the opamp choice. Both very good options though.


 
  
 Any further comments on this? I'm intruiged. Would you call the G103 an upgrade or sidegrade?


----------



## project86

To clarify - I have not yet heard the new M-Stage version. Maybe soon, if I can clear my schedule. But obviously I can't comment on the potential changes in sound until then. 
  
 Regarding the Lake People G103 - I'd say it has a lot in common with the M-Stage actually. Both are mostly neutral and yet both lack the absolute top end extension of more expensive amps. To be honest, the comparison is tough due to the variability of M-Stage sound thanks to opamp rolling. Last time I compared the two, I don't even recall what opamp I was using. But the G103 came out on top by a decent margin. Could I swap opamps and get the M-Stage to win? Maybe. It also depends on the headphones used. G103 has a clear advantage with power hungry planars. The M-Stage is a lot closer if we use dynamics, and maybe even better with the HD800 due to that special synergy it seems to have. So yeah, G103 could be called an upgrade or a sidegrade depending on perspective.
  
 The new distributor for Violectric in the USA happens to also be the Matrix distributor in this area. And he is working on getting the Lake People gear as well. Not sure on the time frame for those though.


----------



## Suguru103

Thank you very much for the explanation. So for an HD600 the difference would not be that great? Or would the G103 be worth the difference and hassle mostly if one had a planar...
  
 But anyways, thanks for your time!


----------



## elwappo99

project86 said:


> Regarding the Lake People G103 - I'd say it has a lot in common with the M-Stage actually. Both are mostly neutral and yet both lack the absolute top end extension of more expensive amps. To be honest, the comparison is tough due to the variability of M-Stage sound thanks to opamp rolling. Last time I compared the two, I don't even recall what opamp I was using. But the G103 came out on top by a decent margin. Could I swap opamps and get the M-Stage to win? Maybe. It also depends on the headphones used. G103 has a clear advantage with power hungry planars. The M-Stage is a lot closer if we use dynamics, and maybe even better with the HD800 due to that special synergy it seems to have. So yeah, G103 could be called an upgrade or a sidegrade depending on perspective.


 
  
 Thanks much for the information. I think I'll try get an in person listen first!


----------



## jtam

Trying not to post any ads here but if anybody wants to listen to the new m-stage amp, check out the tam audio blog...


----------



## formula1

jtam said:


> Trying not to post any ads here but if anybody wants to listen to the new m-stage amp, check out the tam audio blog...


 
  
 Seems tempting.


----------



## FLguy

maxvla said:


> Still the small bad knob setup. Hated trying to turn it so I replaced it with a much larger one and I've been happy ever since.


 
  
 What replacement knob did you use, and where did you get it?


----------



## Maxvla

http://www.head-fi.org/t/475618/matrix-m-stage-amp-review-simple-cheap-and-excellent/3855#post_9328816


----------



## FLguy

maxvla said:


> http://www.head-fi.org/t/475618/matrix-m-stage-amp-review-simple-cheap-and-excellent/3855#post_9328816


 
  
 Cool - thanks


----------



## kellte2

I have an older the M-Stage and I've noticed some audio interference just when i touch the knob.  It goes away immediately after removing my grip, but I was wondering if there is something I can do to remofe that effect.


----------



## Chris J

kellte2 said:


> I have an older the M-Stage and I've noticed some audio interference just when i touch the knob.  It goes away immediately after removing my grip, but I was wondering if there is something I can do to remofe that effect.


 
  
 Is it grounded?
 Don't cut the third pin off the AC cable.


----------



## kellte2

It is definitely grounded.  Would never cut a pin off a AC adapter/power cable.


----------



## Chris J

kellte2 said:


> It is definitely grounded.  Would never cut a pin off a AC adapter/power cable.


 
  
 The problem must be with the gear plugged into the matrix.
 I've never had the problem you've described and I have plugged various pieces of equipment into my M Stage.


----------



## kellte2

I loosened the screw on the knob and the buzz went away.  Strange, but i'll take it.


----------



## Chris J




----------



## project86

I've got the new version on the way so I can have a quick listen, maybe compare it to the original and see how it does. The Matrix USA rep asked Matrix HQ about what exactly the differences are between the models. This is the reply given:
  
  
M-stage HPA-2:   
  
1. Gain is now fixed (maximum value is +15dB）no more gain switches on the bottom of the unit.
2. Added headphone protection functions:
    a. If direct current is detected the headphone output is instantly muted.
    b. When the unit is turned on or off the audio is muted to prevent 'pops' & 'clicks'.
 
M-stage HPA-2 USB:
 
1. XMOS USB interface chip, support for up to 24bit/192kHz, ASIO driver support, and a LME49720 OpAmp replaces the OPA2134 OpAmp.
 
So I can't imagine the sound being too drastically different. Remove the gain switches from the signal path, and then add the DC servo (or whatever they did for protection), and you're probably right back where you started in terms of signal path complexity. The +15dB gain seems fine to me - I mostly used the original on 10dB anyway. 
 
The USB version seems to be a more substantial improvement. Since they don't list a different DAC chip we can assume the PCM1793 is still in play. XMOS plus PCM1793 plus the quality power supply on board, and the LME49720 which is always a crowd pleaser.... For the $40 price difference, I can't imagine getting a stand alone USB DAC that could come anywhere near it. But we'll see.


----------



## Chris J

So we can surmise that the headphone amp sounds the same as it did before.
 Fixing the gain at +15 dB sounds more like a cost reduction than anything, i.e they deleted the DIP switches.


----------



## chicolom

Interesting about the removal of dip switch gain...


----------



## Chris J

Hopefully they improved the volume control so it tracks well at low volumes


----------



## project86

chris j said:


> So we can surmise that the headphone amp sounds the same as it did before.
> Fixing the gain at +15 dB sounds more like a cost reduction than anything, i.e they deleted the DIP switches.


 
  
 We'll see. I suspect there may be some other minor tweaks involved that have not been mentioned. For example, the voltage adjustment switch is now on the left side of the enclosure. So obviously something in the power supply has been reworked to accommodate that. Enough to make a change in the sound? Dunno yet. 
  
 The gain adjustment went away but they added DC protection circuit. So the complexity is still roughly the same as it always was, give or take. 
  


chris j said:


> Hopefully they improved the volume control so it tracks well at low volumes


 
  
 I'll definitely check this. My original M-Stage had good tracking but I've heard from others who had issues. So maybe it varies from one unit to the next? Potentiometers are all unique (even within the same batch) so it's very possible.


----------



## Chris J

project86 said:


> We'll see. I suspect there may be some other minor tweaks involved that have not been mentioned. For example, the voltage adjustment switch is now on the left side of the enclosure. So obviously something in the power supply has been reworked to accommodate that. Enough to make a change in the sound? Dunno yet.
> 
> The gain adjustment went away but they added DC protection circuit. So the complexity is still roughly the same as it always was, give or take.
> 
> ...


 
  
 If they added a 120/240 Vac switch for International compatibility to the M Stage, then they specified a different transformer, which won't necessarily alter the sound of the M Stage.


----------



## project86

chris j said:


> If they added a 120/240 Vac switch for International compatibility to the M Stage, then they specified a different transformer, which won't necessarily alter the sound of the M Stage.


 
  
 Yeah, we'll have to see. I have a loaner on the way for a quick comparison - won't be a full review or anything, just trying to get a general idea of what's going on with it.


----------



## Chris J

project86 said:


> Yeah, we'll have to see. I have a loaner on the way for a quick comparison - won't be a full review or anything, just trying to get a general idea of what's going on with it.


 
  
 To me, the whole thing sounds like a USB DAC upgrade plus a facelift?


----------



## project86

chris j said:


> To me, the whole thing sounds like a USB DAC upgrade plus a facelift?


 
  
 Could be. It's definitely more of a significant update on the USB side versus the amp side - which honestly makes sense as the amp was always far better than the DAC option. 
  
 In other news, Matrix has new info on the their updated Mini- model. The surprising development is the addition of a mini-i Pro, which is an upgraded version with more capabilities.
  
 Mini-i is $379, has the dual AD1955 DACs and an XMOS async USB section supporting 24-bit/384kHz signals.
  

  

  

  

  
  
  
  
 The mini-i Pro ($519) trades the Analog Devices DACs for an ESS Sabre ES9016 chip. It has the same USB setup but now supports DSD and DXD thanks to the DSD capable DAC chip.


----------



## beaver316

Just thought I'd post here that I'm considering selling my M-stage. If anyone here is interested you can see details here.


----------



## zting

project86 said:


> Yeah, we'll have to see. I have a loaner on the way for a quick comparison - won't be a full review or anything, just trying to get a general idea of what's going on with it.



 


I would be extremely interested in hearing your opinion on the new mstage hpa2


----------



## Shini44

hey guys is there a mod/way to reduce the gain even more? do i add resistors?


----------



## Shini44

project86 said:


> I'll definitely check this. My original M-Stage had good tracking but I've heard from others who had issues. So maybe it varies from one unit to the next? Potentiometers are all unique (even within the same batch) so it's very possible.


 

 mine isn't i don't like the volume controlling on the M-Stage, you tweak it a little and end up with a lot of vols or the opposite, the Pico Slim is way better at this , so far i used SRH940 and UM Miracle with the M-Stage, is the gain that make the volume controlling this bad? thats why i wanted to lower it even more, its @ 0db but still...


----------



## beaver316

shini44 said:


> mine isn't i don't like the volume controlling on the M-Stage, you tweak it a little and end up with a lot of vols or the opposite, the Pico Slim is way better at this , so far i used SRH940 and UM Miracle with the M-Stage, is the gain that make the volume controlling this bad? thats why i wanted to lower it even more, its @ 0db but still...


 
  
 If there's too much gain even at 0db then you might accidentally have it at 20db. The sticker underneath isn't very clear with it's instruction.
  
 So just reverse the switches and see if it's any quieter.


----------



## Shini44

the stickers are fine dude don't worry, you just plug your iem/ciem there and you will end up with the same result, you will notice the different if you plugged your iem/ciem into another amp like uha6 or even WA7 which is also doing a very very nice volume control.


----------



## elwappo99

beaver316 said:


> shini44 said:
> 
> 
> > mine isn't i don't like the volume controlling on the M-Stage, you tweak it a little and end up with a lot of vols or the opposite, the Pico Slim is way better at this , so far i used SRH940 and UM Miracle with the M-Stage, is the gain that make the volume controlling this bad? thats why i wanted to lower it even more, its @ 0db but still...
> ...


 
  
 I also find the M-stage has a lot of volume play on the lower gain settings. I would suggest Shini44 play around with the gain switches. I know the stickers are confusing, and in some earlier versions the gain switches were backwards.


----------



## Shini44

0db is when both are pointed down  and i did try the opposite before with TH600 to check the setting, i still think the volume of the lower gain isn't cool as the other features that the M-Stage is offering us, like being dead silent :3

 also mine isn't and early version, its like two months old.


----------



## project86

So I received the loaner of the new M-Stage HPA-2 with USB input. Have not had a chance to connect it yet, but wow does it look nice! Such an improvement over the original. Sorry I didn't grab any pics yet, will do that ASAP. 
  
 The analogy on build quality: original M-Stage was like a muscle car. Heavy and strong, it impressed by sheer weight. The new version is much more refined, like a modern sports car. It weighs a lot less, probably due to lighter materials in the enclosure, yet has a lot more attention to detail all around. 
  
 I set the new M-Stage down next to two other amps with integrated DACs on board. One cost $550, the other $750. The M-Stage ($320) did not look at all out of place among them - and maybe even looked the best of the group. 
  
 Pics and listening impressions to follow.


----------



## BournePerfect

project86 said:


> So I received the loaner of the new M-Stage HPA-2 with USB input. Have not had a chance to connect it yet, but wow does it look nice! Such an improvement over the original. Sorry I didn't grab any pics yet, will do that ASAP.
> 
> The analogy on build quality: original M-Stage was like a muscle car. Heavy and strong, it impressed by sheer weight. The new version is much more refined, like a modern sports car. It weighs a lot less, probably due to lighter materials in the enclosure, yet has a lot more attention to detail all around.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Awesome-I'm about to grab one of these myself. I'm real curious how it sounds with the HD800 compared to the original, which was fabulous. The specs listed are all identical from what I can tell, not that those mean much. Can't wait for your impressions, John.
  
 -Daniel


----------



## Vundo

I was planning on getting this amp for Christmas but now I'm conflicted with spending extra cash for the HPA2. So far it just looks like the new version has more pros and no cons. I'm curious to hear what you have to say project86.


----------



## TooPoor

Very curious about the HPA-2... Any initial updates?


----------



## Makiah S

shockah said:


> Thanks! But does anyone know how does the matrix m stage compare to a tube amp like the littledot mkiv? I intend to use either one with the Modi DAC and Senn HD600s and many reviews stated that the mkiv and HD600 have good synergy. Never really heard of people with the m stage and HD600 though.




actually for what its wrth. I find THE schiit vali to have the same but a superior sound sig when compared to the m stage. So if a lil noise n lack of gain control do not bother u... Id get the Vali over the m stage.

I never realized how warm the m stage was till i got my nfb10es2 but imo for a warm amp... the vali sounds better for less


----------



## project86

I finally got the new M-Stage hooked up and playing. So far just using the line-in, but I intend to check out the new USB input in the next few days. But I like what I hear - it's still smooth, and still on the warm side, but seems pretty balanced overall. Reminds me a bit of the Lake People/Violectric sound, where there's just a  bit of warmth. I think the LM49720 was a very good choice for Matrix to include by default (note that only USB versions seem get this upgrade - non-USB models still have the OPA2134 as far as I've been told). You can scroll back through this thread and see how many people rolled opamps for a while, and settled on the LM49720 (or identical LM4562) as a solid all-around performer.
  
  
  
 I'm currently feeding it with the Questyle Q192 USB DAC which at $700 is maybe not a realistic pairing for the M-Stage... But it's what I had sitting there on my desk. Later I'll throw in some more affordable DACs like maybe a Resonessence Labs Herus ($350) and an Audinst HUD-mx2 ($250). Then I'll see how closely the built-in USB section compares.
  
 As of now, I'm not really able to comment on differences/improvements over the original M-Stage. Need more listening time and direct comparisons for that. But gimme a few days and I'll keep at it.


----------



## Makiah S

project86 said:


> I finally got the new M-Stage hooked up and playing. So far just using the line-in, but I intend to check out the new USB input in the next few days. But I like what I hear - it's still smooth, and still on the warm side, but seems pretty balanced overall. Reminds me a bit of the Lake People/Violectric sound, where there's just a  bit of warmth. I think the LM49720 was a very good choice for Matrix to include by default (note that only USB versions seem get this upgrade - non-USB models still have the OPA2134 as far as I've been told). You can scroll back through this thread and see how many people rolled opamps for a while, and settled on the LM49720 (or identical LM4562) as a solid all-around performer.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 i HAD AN LEM 42XXX AMP IN MINE AND i ENJOYED IT VERYMUCH   sorryfor caps lick, using a sluggishold Library Public pc :/


----------



## elwappo99

project86 said:


> As of now, I'm not really able to comment on differences/improvements over the original M-Stage. Need more listening time and direct comparisons for that. But gimme a few days and I'll keep at it.


 
  
 I'll definitely be keeping up on this. Very interested in your forthcoming thoughts. Even with the recent purchase of a Schiit Vali, I find the M-stage I have to excel in enough aspects to keep it around for the vast majority of my headphones.


----------



## Maxvla

Combined my headphone and speaker rigs using the M-Stage to bridge the gap and it is working very well in preamp duty as well as headphone duty. Makes controlling my speaker amp (no remote) a breeze since the M-Stage is on a small table next to my chair with my headphone stuff.


----------



## elwappo99

maxvla said:


> Combined my headphone and speaker rigs using the M-Stage to bridge the gap and it is working very well in preamp duty as well as headphone duty. Makes controlling my speaker amp (no remote) a breeze since the M-Stage is on a small table next to my chair with my headphone stuff.


 
  
 forgot to mention mine is also doing this. Really solid without any distortion or pops. Wish there preamp would cut off if the headphone was plugged in, but I found a work around. Sounds great with my Airmotiv 4s


----------



## Maxvla

elwappo99 said:


> Wish there preamp would cut off if the headphone was plugged in, but I found a work around.



Mine does...


----------



## elwappo99

maxvla said:


> elwappo99 said:
> 
> 
> > Wish there preamp would cut off if the headphone was plugged in, but I found a work around.
> ...


 
  
 Oh... Awkward. I think I have the earliest version. Maybe it was implemented later? Either way, I found a work around that's pretty efficient for me.


----------



## Maxvla

I got mine about 8ish months ago. Not sure about revisions done before.


----------



## Remior

I using the M Stage too, to preamp the PC speakers I have (Microlab Self amplified), and mine it's from August 2013 and it has the RCA cancellation headphone jack too.
 By the way I'm really impressed because it works very well like preamp for speakers too, and nobody had speak about that... and even in the Matrix web there aren't soo much information abut the rca outs to know how it works as preamp....
  
 I have the LM4662NA opamp in the DAC section and the Class A Biasing OPA627AP on the Amp section but some time change to the stock OPA2134PA because I like it very much with my bighter headphones (K701 and HD668B).
  
 I think it's really impresive the new DAC section improvement and not raising the price soo much, it has a better USB system implementation that will increase the capabilities from DAC and the better of all it's now it gives you native ASIO support!!! 
  
 Matrix has made a good job improving the DAC a bit with no raisng the price. If before was good now it's even better DAC/AMP...
  
 What will be the new improvement... maybe a Balanced headphone out... ???


----------



## project86

I feel bad because I've been calling this amp "the M-Stage" all this time. Technically M-Stage is the _series _which features the HPA-1, HPA-2, and DAC. It didn't matter at the beginning since there was only one model in the line. Now that we've got a few to choose from, I should probably start using the proper terminology. 
  
 Anyway I spent a little more time with the _M-Stage HPA-2 _(See? That wasn't so hard...) using the USB input from a MacBook, and then line out to high-end setup of AURALiC Taurus mkII and HiFiMAN HE-6. Obviously the built in DAC is not a substitute for megabuck designs or even the really good $800-1200 units out there. Duh, right? Nonetheless, it doesn't sound terrible at all. It does "the basics" rather well. There's no grating top end, muffled midrange, dynamic compression, or any of those types of dealbreakers. Which are pretty common in budget DACs. It doesn't have the same realism or transparency like you'll find in a Yulong D100, Resonessence Labs Concero, Parasound Zdac.... but it isn't all that far behind either. Thus far it seems to compete well with dedicated budget gear like the Audinst HUD-mx2. Which is pretty good considering this is just an "add on" feature.


----------



## 1llest

blueangel2323 said:


> opa627 class A biased is very warm, I think too warm for most people. The M-Stage is already slightly warm to begin with, so I would stick with a neutral op amp.


 
  
 I currently have this op amp and would like to try a more neutral one. which one do you suggest?


----------



## Change is Good

LM4562


----------



## 1llest

Is this the correct one? http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Texas-Instruments/LM4562MA-NOPB/?qs=QbsRYf82W3EF3n1VJV%252bowQ==
  
 Any other website I can purchase this from? and I only need one right?


----------



## Chris J

1llest said:


> Is this the correct one? http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Texas-Instruments/LM4562MA-NOPB/?qs=QbsRYf82W3EF3n1VJV%252bowQ==
> 
> Any other website I can purchase this from? and I only need one right?


 
 You need LM4562NA.
 The part you show is incorrect as it is a Surface Mount chip.
 You only need one.


----------



## chicolom

Here is the DIP 8 version:
 http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Texas-Instruments/LM4562NA-NOPB/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMtCHixnSjNA6JlKxGj6zye%252bDw5UwZXQkUk%3d


----------



## 1llest

chicolom said:


> Here is the DIP 8 version:
> http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Texas-Instruments/LM4562NA-NOPB/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMtCHixnSjNA6JlKxGj6zye%252bDw5UwZXQkUk%3d




Thank you


----------



## Maxvla

Go LT1364, IMO


----------



## 1llest

maxvla said:


> Go LT1364, IMO




Whats the difference between the two?


----------



## Maxvla

I haven't heard the LM. I've only had the stock and the LT1364 recommended to me by Athur of Matrix USA. It's less dark than the stock, but not harsh in treble. Works very well with HD800.


----------



## conquerator2

So is there any real difference between the 2013 and 2012 versions?
I know the build quality looks more luxurious but is there any amp or DAC advantage?
Thanks


----------



## Maxvla

New version with DAC has to be better than the older version. The old version's DAC is emergency use only. It's not very good.


----------



## conquerator2

maxvla said:


> New version with DAC has to be better than the older version. The old version's DAC is emergency use only. It's not very good.


 
 Yes but it still seems a bit tucked on to me [PCM1793, just 50 more expensive, etc.]
 But hey, if anyone could compare the two, that'd be great :]


----------



## Maxvla

I will be comparing them soon.


----------



## conquerator2

maxvla said:


> I will be comparing them soon.


 
 Great, just how soon


----------



## Maxvla

I will get the HPA-2 John has when he is done. Hopefully in a week or just over. Supposed to take it to the Austin meet on the 18th.


----------



## conquerator2

maxvla said:


> I will get the HPA-2 John has when he is done. Hopefully in a week or just over. Supposed to take it to the Austin meet on the 18th.


 
 K. Thanks.
 Will be looking forward to it though by then I'd have probably made the decision [http://www.head-fi.org/t/698326/which-dac-to-get]


----------



## project86

I tell ya, this new DAC option is not bad at all. It seems to keep up with entry level stuff such as HRT Music Streamer II, the Musical Fidelity V-DAC, or the Dragonfly. And why shouldn't it? There's already a nice PSU on board, and an output stage which isn't an afterthought, so really all that's needed is the XMOS USB solution and the DAC chip itself. 
  
 It won't blow away good $300-500 DACs but it does just fine for what it is. I'm very satisfied with it.


----------



## conquerator2

project86 said:


> I tell ya, this new DAC option is not bad at all. It seems to keep up with entry level stuff such as HRT Music Streamer II, the Musical Fidelity V-DAC, or the Dragonfly. And why shouldn't it? There's already a nice PSU on board, and an output stage which isn't an afterthought, so really all that's needed is the XMOS USB solution and the DAC chip itself.
> 
> It won't blow away good $300-500 DACs but it does just fine for what it is. I'm very satisfied with it.


 
 I was looking at the Topping D3/Aune X1/SMSL SD-650 as alternatives... it's a third cheaper too...
 But I am still considering the Matrix as well.


----------



## project86

conquerator2 said:


> I was looking at the Topping D3/Aune X1/SMSL SD-650 as alternatives... it's a third cheaper too...
> But I am still considering the Matrix as well.


 
  
  
 I have no experience with any of those, but none of them look to be direct competitors to the Matrix. Just check out the power supplies. 
  
 That said, they could be quite good in their own right, I don't know.


----------



## conquerator2

project86 said:


> I have no experience with any of those, but none of them look to be direct competitors to the Matrix. Just check out the power supplies.
> 
> That said, they could be quite good in their own right, I don't know.


 
 Yeah, I will obviously consider the M-Stage :]
 Is it really as great of an amp [and sufficient of a DAC] as I've read?
 I keep reading its a steal everywhere 
 Though it does look identical to the older model...


----------



## conquerator2

How's the new Mstage tonality wise?
Is it warm, cold or neutral. How are the highs mids lows or soundstage and separation?
Thanks


----------



## Maxvla

edit- whoops, didn't see your 'new' qualifier. following pertains to old model, but may still hold true for new. I will come back and edit once I've heard it.

Warm, but not dulled in the treble. Opamp choice has a lot to do with the final sound, but most will still have at least some warmth to the sound. The LT1364 I use is one of the brighter opamps, but it still is warm compared to other amps I've used. Highs are very opamp dependent. It can be edgy and rough or soft and smooth, or crisp but clear. The stock opamp is soft and slightly rough, I'd recommend changing it asap. The good news is most opamps are just a few dollars. Mids are very good with just about any opamp you can put in this amp. It's warm nature makes sure mids are well represented. Quantity is always just about right, though clarity and texture vary by opamp. Bass is also opamp dependent. The stock is somewhat wooly and boomy with too much mid-bass. The popular OPA627 class A mod is said to be very warm, but smooth and relaxing, so I would expect better quality bass, but still a good amount of it. The LT1364 is tighter in the bass and slightly less quantity than stock, quality is way up.

Soundstage and imaging is mostly the same with all opamps, but treble clarity will have some effect. The LT1364 is very good for this as it is brighter and clearer giving a larger but still focused soundstage and sharp imaging. The stock opamp has a good size stage but can tend to be fuzzy on imaging.

Another popular opamp is the LM4562 which I haven't heard, but is supposed to be somewhat neutral, so with the M-Stage's darker nature, with the LM4562, I'd guess it is just on the darker side of neutral while the LT1364 is it's opposite on the brighter side.


----------



## conquerator2

maxvla said:


> edit- whoops, didn't see your 'new' qualifier. following pertains to old model, but may still hold true for new. I will come back and edit once I've heard it.
> 
> Warm, but not dulled in the treble. Opamp choice has a lot to do with the final sound, but most will still have at least some warmth to the sound. The LT1364 I use is one of the brighter opamps, but it still is warm compared to other amps I've used. Highs are very opamp dependent. It can be edgy and rough or soft and smooth, or crisp but clear. The stock opamp is soft and slightly rough, I'd recommend changing it asap. The good news is most opamps are just a few dollars. Mids are very good with just about any opamp you can put in this amp. It's warm nature makes sure mids are well represented. Quantity is always just about right, though clarity and texture vary by opamp. Bass is also opamp dependent. The stock is somewhat wooly and boomy with too much mid-bass. The popular OPA627 class A mod is said to be very warm, but smooth and relaxing, so I would expect better quality bass, but still a good amount of it. The LT1364 is tighter in the bass and slightly less quantity than stock, quality is way up.
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks for the write-up!
 I am sure its 90% true for the new version as well as it is very similar.
 Anyway, in the new Mstage there is the LME49720 op-amp by default.
Any idea about its sounds characteristics?
Thanks again. Appreciate it.


----------



## project86

Maxvla pretty much captured it - that all applies to the HPA-2 as well. It's really a satisfying sound with the LM49720. Keep in mind the regular, non-USB version still comes stock with the same OPA2134. So if you aren't big on opening a case and swapping opamps (really, it's quite simple), the USB version has that added bonus for the small price difference. 
  
  
 EDIT btw I'm almost done messing with this loaner and then I'll get it out to you Maxvla. Should be mid week or so.


----------



## conquerator2

project86 said:


> Maxvla pretty much captured it - that all applies to the HPA-2 as well. It's really a satisfying sound with the LM49720. Keep in mind the regular, non-USB version still comes stock with the same OPA2134. So if you aren't big on opening a case and swapping opamps (really, it's quite simple), the USB version has that added bonus for the small price difference.
> 
> 
> EDIT btw I'm almost done messing with this loaner and then I'll get it out to you Maxvla. Should be mid week or so.


 
 Thanks, so you say the DAC is fine? If yes, then the M-Stage USB it is.


----------



## conquerator2

Pulled the trigger on the 2014's M-Stage with the DAC module. The first headphone used with it will be the K612 Pros, among others will be the Sony MA900, Philips X1 and AT W1000Xs.
 Will report back :]


----------



## elwappo99

conquerator2 said:


> Pulled the trigger on the 2014's M-Stage with the DAC module. The first headphone used with it will be the K612 Pros, among others will be the Sony MA900, Philips X1 and AT W1000Xs.
> Will report back :]


 
  
 Very interested in the K612 impressions. I owned the K601 way back, and the K612 have been in my sights


----------



## conquerator2

elwappo99 said:


> Very interested in the K612 impressions. I owned the K601 way back, and the K612 have been in my sights




Very preliminary impressions in the AKG K702 (The Classic) vs. K612 Pro (The Upstart) – Review and Comparison thread, page 7.
Though I have a feeling that once the Matrix is here all my headphones will further improve, more so the K612
For what it's worth, the K612 being my first AKG headphone, I am impressed!
I'll report back when I have the Mstage


----------



## zting

Received my mstage hpa2 today, and my impression of it within the first hour can be found here:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/693278/2014-matrix-mstage-hpa2#post_10142051


----------



## conquerator2

zting said:


> Received my mstage hpa2 today, and my impression of it within the first hour can be found here:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/693278/2014-matrix-mstage-hpa2#post_10142051




I am getting the USB version with the better op amp though.
Since the regular hpa 2 has the same op amp as the older M-Stage. The op amp is kinda meh and the LME49720 should be noticeably better.

Looking forward to other impressions (if they precede my own obviously xD)


----------



## zting

conquerator2 said:


> I am getting the USB version with the better op amp though.
> Since the regular hpa 2 has the same op amp as the older M-Stage. The op amp is kinda meh and the LME49720 should be noticeably better.
> 
> Looking forward to other impressions (if they precede my own obviously xD)


 
 does this mean i bought the wrong version of the matrix mstage 0_0....
  
 I was pretty disappointed with my hpa2. I thought it would help with the sound but anyway... i asked my friend to tried both and he too found the mdac to sound better   .....


----------



## Maxvla

You can always change the opamp yourself. It's very simple, and the opamps are usually just a few dollars.


----------



## Chris J

zting said:


> does this mean i bought the wrong version of the matrix mstage 0_0....
> 
> I was pretty disappointed with my hpa2. I thought it would help with the sound but anyway... i asked my friend to tried both and he too found the mdac to sound better   .....


 
  
 You can try changing the Op Amp.
 As Maxvla pointed out, the replacement Op Amp is cheap, but it will not make a huge difference.


----------



## chicolom

chris j said:


> You can try changing the Op Amp.
> As Maxvla pointed out, the replacement Op Amp is cheap,* but it will not make a huge difference.*


 
  
 x2


----------



## Chodi

It's been pointed out several times in this thread that the Matrix M Stage is a great value as an amp but their dac version is bare bones and not that great.


----------



## project86

chodi said:


> It's been pointed out several times in this thread that the Matrix M Stage is a great value as an amp but their dac version is bare bones and not that great.


 
  
  
 I agree about the original model, but I actually think this new DAC is quite respectable. I compared it directly to the Audinst HUD-mx2 ($250) and it was very close, with the M-Stage actually doing some things better. That XMOS solution is cheap and really good.


----------



## BournePerfect

Isn't the M-dac in a completely different price class, and apple to oranges all around? Also-XMOS rocks-it's the main USB method that my SBT loves. 
  
 John-from strictly an amp perspective-how does the HPA-2 compare to the original, assuming the same opamp is used?
  
 -Daniel


----------



## conquerator2

project86 said:


> I agree about the original model, but I actually think this new DAC is quite respectable. I compared it directly to the Audinst HUD-mx2 ($250) and it was very close, with the M-Stage actually doing some things better. That XMOS solution is cheap and really good.


 
 But it is noticeably better than the Audinst as a standalone amp, correct?


----------



## conquerator2

bourneperfect said:


> Isn't the M-dac in a completely different price class, and apple to oranges all around? Also-XMOS rocks-it's the main USB method that my SBT loves.
> 
> John-from strictly an amp perspective-how does the HPA-2 compare to the original, assuming the same opamp is used?
> 
> -Daniel


 
 I imagine they'd be very similar.
Is it true though that the HPA-2 no longer has a gain switch? That seems kinda like a bummer to me...
 Nvm, seems like there is at the bottom [much like with the old one] the guy who posted that impression above probably just missed it...
 Can't wait, should arrive by Friday!


----------



## zting

bourneperfect said:


> Isn't the M-dac in a completely different price class, and apple to oranges all around? Also-XMOS rocks-it's the main USB method that my SBT loves.
> 
> John-from strictly an amp perspective-how does the HPA-2 compare to the original, assuming the same opamp is used?
> 
> -Daniel




They are but mdac is built as a DAC and not as a pure amp which the mstage is. I thought the mstage amp bebe atleast as good but with a different colouration?

But then does it matter with the DAC in the mstage as I am using the mstage purely purely as an amp?or am I missing something?


----------



## Maxvla

The HPA-2 is fixed gain of +15dB. HPA-1 is 0 to +20dB.


----------



## Maxvla

Correction from Matrix on the opamp included with HPA-2, all versions have the OPA2134. The USB DAC model does not have a different opamp. Perhaps John swapped it and forgot?

Another difference between the HPA-1 and HPA-2 is that the voltage is now switchable, so it should work almost anywhere in the world.


----------



## conquerator2

maxvla said:


> Correction from Matrix on the opamp included with HPA-2, all versions have the OPA2134. The USB DAC model does not have a different opamp. Perhaps John swapped it and forgot?
> 
> Another difference between the HPA-1 and HPA-2 is that the voltage is now switchable, so it should work almost anywhere in the world.




That's strange it clearly says in the description that it uses the LME49720...
Are they lying then?
How would I change an opamp?
Thanks


----------



## hellexecutor

conquerator2 said:


> That's strange it clearly says in the description that it uses the LME49720...
> Are they lying then?
> How would I change an opamp?
> Thanks


 

 New USB-module has an op-amp too, and it's LME49720.


----------



## conquerator2

hellexecutor said:


> New USB-module has an op-amp too, and it's LME49720.


 
 Was he talking about the older model then?


----------



## hellexecutor

conquerator2 said:


> Was he talking about the older model then?


 
  
 I think it's just a little mixup here. LME49720 is the only opamp mentioned in the description of HPA2 on Matrix website so it was easy to think that it replaced "old" OPA2134.

 LME49720 op-amp used in new USB-DAC module (see pic http://matrix-digi.com/uploads/allimg/introduction/hpa-203.jpg, to the right of DAC). The Amp-part uses OPA2134 in both USB and non-USB versions of HPA2, as well as in older HPA1. That's my thoughts


----------



## chicolom

conquerator2 said:


> That's strange it clearly says in the description that it uses the LME49720...
> Are they lying then?
> How would I change an opamp?
> Thanks


 
  
 Maybe just the DAC section uses the LME49720.  I see no mention of that opamp on the non-DAC model page.
  

  
  
 Changing the opamp is easy, you just take out the top 4 screws (you'll need an allen wrench for the front ones) and then pull the top off.  Then you pull the opamp out and replace it with another.  Make sure the opamp goes in the right direction.  The opamps have a little indent and a dot in the top left corner, and I believe those should be facing the amps inputs (the back of the M-stage).  So if your looking at the front of the M-stage with the volume knob facing you, the opamp should have the indent farthest away from you and closer to the rear of the M-stage.
  
 Like this:
  
 
  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  
  
  
 One last thing...
  
 I get the sense that your already pre-biased towards thinking that the OPA2134 opamp is bad, but IMO it sounds perfectly fine.  I think some people take any issues they have with the sound on a piece of gear and then blame it all on the _first interchangeable part_.  I see this happen a lot with the Fidelio X1 - people listen to it and then blame any issues they have with the sound on its stock cable (with it's _1 ohm_ of extra resistance 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





). Add in a dose of placebo and expectation bias, and all their issues with the sound seem to magically get fixed as soon as they use a different cable (the other day a new X1 owner said he heard a _"night and day difference"_ when he switched out cables).  The cable starts becoming the scapegoat for everyone's issues.  After this process of people blaming their problems on the cable repeats for a while, people eventually start labeling the stock cable as "lousy","garbage", "trash", etc.  New people who get the headphones read the negative remarks and often just conform to the idea that the cable actually _is _garbage, and then they voice it themselves - and the cycle repeats.
  
 I think the same thing happens with the M-stage and its stock OPA2134 opamp.
  
  
 Feel free to play around with changing them, but don't be surprised if the differences in opamps turn out to be _very _minor.


----------



## hellexecutor

[double post]


----------



## conquerator2

chicolom said:


> Maybe just the DAC section uses the LME49720.  I see no mention of that opamp on the non-DAC model page.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




  
 Thanks Chico.
 Yeah, that's the one thing I hate about our community, we tend to exaggerate A LOT.
 And because most of the times there is no chance for me try most of the products I buy beforehand, I have to go by my most reliable source [which is you & the rest]
 The thing is, more often than not, I end up just that, while my own impressions are different.
 "This op-amp, is muddy and tizzy and the soundstage s unnatural and shrunk, but THIS opamp makes the treble crystal clear and the soundstage very spacious" "Mkay, let me try that."switches the opamps" but the different is so small!"
 This is how it usually turns out for me.
  
 I still love the community as most of the decisions [head-fi] related turned out very well thanks to it, but the exaggeration shows.
  
 And then there is the expectation. Sometimes, when you expect something to sound different, you can hear it [well aka placebo or expectation bias] even though in reality its not really like that.
  
 Rest assured, I'd like to avoid changing anything at first as I don't really like altering stuff [using different exchangeable parts, using EQ, etc] as that's not the way it was meant to sound. I am not against changing opamps [and thanks to your great guide, it'd be a breeze now :]] but I'd try the stock one for some time and try to forget the impressions I've read and try to make my own mind.
  
 Thanks again for the guide & tip :]
  
 I am sure I'll be happy.


----------



## Chris J

Changing the Op Amp in the M Stage makes a very subtle difference.
But it's easy to do and doesn't cost a lot of money, so you may as we'll try it out for yourself!


----------



## vian

Sorry to disappoint you, but it has no gain switch.
 I know it, because I own the usb version of this new HPA-2.
  
 But that's the only downside.
 It's a great amp, the sound is very musical and engaging. I use it via it's USB input and paired with my AKG Q701, and they seem to be a great match so far.
 The onboard DAC is a steal for that extra 40 dollars.


----------



## project86

Bingo, a few people hit on it already. The HPA-2 amp output uses the OPA2134, on both the USB version and the amp-only model. I didn't know that until recently (I never opened the case on my loaner). The literature I was given mentioned the LME49720 for the USB version so I just assumed they meant in the output stage. 
  
 Let me recap for a sec - my original M-Stage is on loan far, far away, so I couldn't compare it to the HPA-2. But I was able to borrow last year's model from a friend. He told me it had a stock OPA2134 so I thought I was comparing that to the HPA-2 with LME4920. Boy was I mixed up. I stand by my original statements about the sound I heard.... but for different reasons. 
  
 Turns out the HPA-1 had what I believe to be a counterfeit OPA627 in there, and the HPA-2 had the OPA2134. Not sure if you guys have tried OPA627 but the real version is pretty good - the fakes not as much. This version sounded warm, and pretty smooth, but lacked some detail on the top end, and had some kind of glaze on the midrange. In comparison the new model is _a lot_ more clear and well rounded. These differences apply doubly so for the older USB section versus the new model. Due to the circumstances I can't really be sure how the stock HPA-2 amp section compares to the stock HPA-1 when both have OPA2134. I'd like to say it's improved but I can't be sure. 
  
 Anyway, I have a few nice opamps such as Muses 01, Muses 02, LME49720, AD797, OPA1641.... I really wanted to roll a bunch of them but just ran out of time. The loaner is now on its way to Maxvla so maybe he can give that a try when he has a chance.


----------



## conquerator2

So is it confirmed that the hpa2 has no gain setting at all? (either the usb or no usb version)?
What's the gain setting then and how would I drive many different headphone with one gain setting?
This seems like a really dumb thing to me from Matrix...


----------



## Maxvla

HPA-2 is fixed +15dB.


----------



## conquerator2

maxvla said:


> HPA-2 is fixed +15dB.



Thanks that seems to be the right setting for medium to higher to drive headphones, which is ideal for me


----------



## chicolom

Unless your using sensitive iems you should still probably be fine.

I use my X1s with 10db gain on the M-stage just fine.


----------



## conquerator2

chicolom said:


> Unless your using sensitive iems you should still probably be fine.
> 
> I use my X1s with 10db gain on the M-stage just fine.




The older model I assume?
How far are you on the volume pot?


----------



## elwappo99

maxvla said:


> HPA-2 is fixed +15dB.


 
  
 That's kind of disappointing to hear.


----------



## cbf123

Hi, I've trawled through most of the posts about the new HPA-2 but couldn't find an exact response - could anyone tell me if I'm better off getting the HPA-1 or 2 to use with HD700's? I understand the new one is set at +15db gain whilst the other is adjustable. Is this something that will make a difference one way or the other given that I just plan to use it with one headphone?

 Thanks!


----------



## conquerator2

elwappo99 said:


> That's kind of disappointing to hear.




I agree though I'll see how it does with little (MA900) to higher (K612) demanding cans and later on probably with the HE-400i/HE-560 
Hope it won't leave me disappointed xP


----------



## Maxvla

cbf123 said:


> Hi, I've trawled through most of the posts about the new HPA-2 but couldn't find an exact response - could anyone tell me if I'm better off getting the HPA-1 or 2 to use with HD700's? I understand the new one is set at +15db gain whilst the other is adjustable. Is this something that will make a difference one way or the other given that I just plan to use it with one headphone?
> 
> 
> Thanks!



HD700 isn't sensitive enough for it to matter.


----------



## chicolom

conquerator2 said:


> The older model I assume?
> How far are you on the volume pot?


 
  
 Yes.
  
 X1s are probably around 10.5 - 11 o'clock. 
  
 The M-stage has a nice Alps "Blue Velvet" potentiometer (pictured on the left).  It's a lot beefier than the normal ones you see in amps like the E09K, Magni, O2, etc. which use the smaller green sized one (pictured in the middle).
  

  
  


cbf123 said:


> Hi, I've trawled through most of the posts about the new HPA-2 but couldn't find an exact response - could anyone tell me if I'm better off getting the HPA-1 or 2 to use with HD700's? I understand the new one is set at +15db gain whilst the other is adjustable. Is this something that will make a difference one way or the other given that I just plan to use it with one headphone?
> 
> Thanks!


 
  
 Either will be fine for the HD700s.  They're 150 ohms.
  
 I'd get the HPA-2 just because it looks sexier.


----------



## conquerator2

chicolom said:


> Yes.
> 
> X1s are probably around 10.5 - 11 o'clock.
> 
> ...




Wow, cool. Seems like it is still a very powerful amp ( that's cool but I'd expect it since the toroidal transformer is pretty beefy too). That's exactly what I want xP


----------



## cbf123

Thanks guys!


----------



## project86

Regarding the fixed gain - it seems to work well enough with just the single setting. Apparently Matrix received a lot of emails from people who were confuse about how to set the gain on the HPA-1. As a great sounding yet affordable mode, HPA-1 probably attracted many folks who had little to no experience in such things. And after testing many headphones they must have concluded that 15dB was ideal all by itself. 
  
 Personally I liked the idea of having adjustable gain but I found myself settling on 10dB and just leaving it there long term. The extra 5dB isn't going to change things much. I tried Grados and Audio Technicas, both of which are pretty easy to drive, and I had sufficient play in the knob for dialing them in. I also used inefficient models like Alpha Dogs and Thunderpants, and those got really loud before the volume knob maxxed out. So it seems reasonable the way it is.


----------



## chicolom

project86 said:


> Personally I liked the idea of having adjustable gain but I found myself settling on 10dB and just leaving it there long term.


 
  
 x2


----------



## Maxvla

10dB here also. Perhaps they should have gotten feedback on this before deciding in house.


----------



## Chris J

project86 said:


> Regarding the fixed gain - it seems to work well enough with just the single setting. Apparently Matrix received a lot of emails from people who were confuse about how to set the gain on the HPA-1. As a great sounding yet affordable mode, HPA-1 probably attracted many folks who had little to no experience in such things. And after testing many headphones they must have concluded that 15dB was ideal all by itself.
> 
> Personally I liked the idea of having adjustable gain but I found myself settling on 10dB and just leaving it there long term. The extra 5dB isn't going to change things much. I tried Grados and Audio Technicas, both of which are pretty easy to drive, and I had sufficient play in the knob for dialing them in. I also used inefficient models like Alpha Dogs and Thunderpants, and those got really loud before the volume knob maxxed out. So it seems reasonable the way it is.


 
  
 It was a cost reduction.


----------



## TooPoor

Initial impression: Way too much power for my X1's. Soooo that obviously means I need new headphones. I'll use the X1's on my work rig. Thinking about waiting for the new HE-560's... Any other recommendations?


----------



## Maxvla

What do you mean, too much power?


----------



## TooPoor

More of an observation about the headphones. It doesn't take much volume to get these things (X1's) to distort quickly.


----------



## Chris J

toopoor said:


> Initial impression: Way too much power for my X1's. Soooo that obviously means I need new headphones. I'll use the X1's on my work rig. Thinking about waiting for the new HE-560's... Any other recommendations?




At the risk of starting WW Z,
Maybe a headphone amp with less gain?
If you have the old style M Stage amp, you could try setting the gain to 0dB.

I assume the phones are quite loud when the distort?

I have a pair of Audio-Technical ATH-ESW9s, they are also a very sensitive phone, like the X1.
When I use them with my old M Stage, I usually set the gain to 0dB.


----------



## TooPoor

Well I fully intend on having two setups: one for work and one for home, so I am looking for an additional pair. The tough part is just deciding what will go where (private office so I can use open 'phones 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 ).
  
 The M Stage so far is great though. Build quality feels up there with my old V200 (it reminds me A LOT of my V200 actually). From what I've read it has more than enough juice to run some pretty power hungry 'phones. I'd REALLY like to pick up another set of HD800's to use at home with it, but am holding out to hear the new HE-400i/HE-560's (which are more affordable).


----------



## kongmw

toopoor said:


> Well I fully intend on having two setups: one for work and one for home, so I am looking for an additional pair. The tough part is just deciding what will go where (private office so I can use open 'phones
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 it's all just a plot and excuse to buy more headphones!!!!!


----------



## TooPoor

I promised my wife I wouldn't relapse and I had been clean for a year or so. Now I'm looking at the new HiFiMan's, maybe a used HD800, new DAC, etc etc...


----------



## Maxvla

I spy with my little eye an OPA2134 as amp opamp in this HPA-2, so yes it was just a website confusion problem. Audio results will have to wait. Stuffed up sinuses making hearing not so good.


----------



## project86

maxvla said:


> I spy with my little eye an OPA2134 as amp opamp in this HPA-2, so yes it was just a website confusion problem. Audio results will have to wait. Stuffed up sinuses making hearing not so good.


 
  
 Glad it made the trip to you safe and sound. Feel better soon!


----------



## conquerator2

So is the OPA2134 utter crap or what?
Should I just order the TA/LM op amps or should I give the stock one a try first?


----------



## Chris J

conquerator2 said:


> So is the OPA2134 utter crap or what?
> Should I just order the TA/LM op amps or should I give the stock one a try first?




Give the stock Op Amp a try.
It's nowhere near as bad as you may think.
It depends on your listening tastes and your headphones and what music you listen to.
I actually don't mind the stock Op Amp with Q701s, I do prefer the LM4562 with the Q701 but I never liked my DT880 with the stock Op Amp.

The LM4562 changed my mind about the M Stage and Dt880s.


----------



## conquerator2

chris j said:


> Give the stock Op Amp a try.
> It's nowhere near as bad as you may think.
> It depends on your listening tastes and your headphones and what music you listen to.
> I actually don't mind the stock Op Amp with Q701s, I do prefer the LM4562 with the Q701 but I never liked my DT880 with the stock Op Amp.
> ...




K I will give it a thorough try xP 
I'll be using the K612 with it which is kinda like a warmer Q/K701
Any idea how the TA something compares? I believe the LM is warmer.
Any idea where the stock one stands?
Thanks


----------



## Chris J

conquerator2 said:


> K I will give it a thorough try xP
> I'll be using the K612 with it which is kinda like a warmer Q/K701
> Any idea how the TA something compares? I believe the LM is warmer.
> Any idea where the stock one stands?
> Thanks




I think (my opinion) is that the LM4562 is a slightly more analytical, detailed and more open sounding Op Amp than the stock Op Amp.
There is not a massive difference in the sound of various Op Amps, in fact, it's pretty subtle.
Not too sure what the TA something is.........I can't think of what Op Amp it could be.
Not all Op Amps should be used with the M Stage.


----------



## conquerator2

chris j said:


> I think (my opinion) is that the LM4562 is a slightly more analytical, detailed and more open sounding Op Amp than the stock Op Amp.
> There is not a massive difference in the sound of various Op Amps, in fact, it's pretty subtle.
> Not too sure what the TA something is.........I can't think of what Op Amp it could be.
> Not all Op Amps should be used with the M Stage.




It's an LT1364 sorry


----------



## Chris J

conquerator2 said:


> It's an LT1364 sorry




I've never tried the LT!
Sorry!


----------



## conquerator2

chris j said:


> I've never tried the LT!
> Sorry!




Another one to try then
If I am not entirely happy I'll probly buy both and see which is better.
Anyway, just curious, why did you remove the in caps of your Matrix?


----------



## chicolom

conquerator2 said:


> So is the OPA2134 utter crap or what?
> Should I just order the TA/LM op amps or should I give the stock one a try first?


 
  
 OPA2134 is fine. 
  
 Try some others if you want, but I wouldn't go crazy on op-amp rolling unless you can actually hear a difference between them (not _think_ you can).


----------



## Chris J

conquerator2 said:


> Another one to try then
> If I am not entirely happy I'll probly buy both and see which is better.
> Anyway, just curious, why did you remove the in caps of your Matrix?




The input caps:
Just an experiment.
I verified that the DACs I use have no DC offset at their outputs (they are probably capacitively coupled) so I wanted to see if I could hear a difference.
I think the M Stage sounds better without them, but I can't be really sure.
It took me about an hour to take the M Stage out of my headphone system, take the caps out, put in jumpers, and put the M Stage back in my system, etc.
If it does sound different or better, then the difference is very subtle.


----------



## conquerator2

chicolom said:


> OPA2134 is fine.
> 
> Try some others if you want, but I wouldn't go crazy on op-amp rolling unless you can actually hear a difference between them (not _think_ you can).




Yep, that's a big if xP


----------



## conquerator2

Got the amp/dac module.
 Burning it in now and I gotta say, I am pretty impressed.
 Running hot like class A amps do - check
 Plenty of volume play for harder to drive headphones left [K612 currently] - check
 Neutral with lots of details and dynamics - check
  
 Really liking it so far :]


----------



## TooPoor

^ Agreed with everything you've said thus far. It does run quite hot. Seems to sound better by the day (to me). Can't wait for the new HiFiMan's coming out (or a used HE-500).


----------



## conquerator2

toopoor said:


> ^ Agreed with everything you've said thus far. It does run quite hot. Seems to sound better by the day (to me). *Can't wait for the new HiFiMan's coming out* (or a used HE-500).


 
 Yes, exactly!!
  
 So far, M-Stage tested with - AKG K612 Pro, Audio Technica ATH-W1000X, Philips Fidelio X1, Sony MDR-MA900.
 Zero noise floor, great synergy with all of them.
 The DAC seems to be good enough too, I definitely recommend it for the extra 40/50 bucks, if you don't have a good dedicated DAC yet, certainly no tack-on.


----------



## conquerator2

Bought the LM4562NA DIP8 and the TI1364 just for the sake of it.
That's as far as I'll go with the op-mp rolling :]


----------



## beaver316

toopoor said:


> ^ Agreed with everything you've said thus far. It does run quite hot. Seems to sound better by the day (to me). Can't wait for the new HiFiMan's coming out (or a used HE-500).


 
  
 I'm hoping last year's M-stage pairs well with the HE-400i. 
  
 Are there any differences with the new M-stage and the previous one in terms of power? I know the new one has a fixed gain though.


----------



## TooPoor

Someone will have to confirm this, but I do not believe there is any power difference. Correct, guys?
  
  I really want to start hearing about the 400i. For me, it's either that or the HE-500. Just waiting on some reviews in the coming months (already feeling like years).


----------



## conquerator2

By the way, will both of these work?
  
http://www.ebay.com/itm/200762599501?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649
  
http://www.ebay.com/itm/200927947722?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649
  
 Thanks!


----------



## Maxvla

The amp circuit is the same as the previous version. The amp only version simply has some updates to the chassis. The addon DAC version has a significantly better DAC. I have both side by side, but due to congestion affecting my hearing, I haven't compared them yet.

I also have both the Mini-i and Mini-i Pro. I plugged in both last night to get them warming up and listened a bit to the Pro and my first impression (with headcold) is positive. Looking forward to hearing the differences between the AD1955 and the Sabre when I can hear properly.


----------



## conquerator2

maxvla said:


> *The amp circuit is the same as the previous version. The amp only version simply has some updates to the chassis. The addon DAC version has a significantly better DAC.* I have both side by side, but due to congestion affecting my hearing, I haven't compared them yet.
> 
> I also have both the Mini-i and Mini-i Pro. I plugged in both last night to get them warming up and listened a bit to the Pro and my first impression (with headcold) is positive. Looking forward to hearing the differences between the AD1955 and the Sabre when I can hear properly.


 
 Both good things, right? 
 The amp seems to be very good to me IMO, the better if the DAC is decent too [which it semms to me as well ]


----------



## TooPoor

Had to throw on one of my IEM's because the wife is asleep. Plugged in my JVC FXZ-200's into the M-Stage and am completely blown away, to be honest. I've kept these IEMs around for rare occasions (prefer my GR07 BE's typically) where the bass called for them and tonight I watched, 'In Ecstasy' (docu about house/trance) and can't believe how good this amp makes these sound. I've never been sold on the overall signature of the FXZ200, but the M-Stage rounds them out perfectly, especially with this bass-centric documentary.


----------



## conquerator2

conquerator2 said:


> By the way, will both of these work?
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/200762599501?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649
> 
> ...




Anyone, please?


----------



## Chodi

conquerator2 said:


> Anyone, please?


 
 There are lots of comments in this thread about switching opamps. Both opamps you reference will work but the LM4562 is the one most commented on and generally given good reviews. If you use a dual opamp you are not going to get a BIG change but it can make an audible difference. If you want a significant step up try something like this:
  
 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LME49710HA-X2-Adaptor-/180872434827?
  
 Works for me and I went through a few duals before I found this. Now I don't feel the need for a change.


----------



## conquerator2

chodi said:


> There are lots of comments in this thread about switching opamps. Both opamps you reference will work but the LM4562 is the one most commented on and generally given good reviews. If you use a dual opamp you are not going to get a BIG change but it can make an audible difference. If you want a significant step up try something like this:
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LME49710HA-X2-Adaptor-/180872434827?
> 
> Works for me and I went through a few duals before I found this. Now I don't feel the need for a change.


 
 I've ordered the LM4562 to get a somewhat warm sound and a dual LT1364 to get a sort of neutral/bright-ish sound, that's all I wan for now.
 It makes very little difference anyways and I don't wanna get into this too much.
 Thanks, regardless!


----------



## Chris J

chodi said:


> There are lots of comments in this thread about switching opamps. Both opamps you reference will work but the LM4562 is the one most commented on and generally given good reviews. If you use a dual opamp you are not going to get a BIG change but it can make an audible difference. If you want a significant step up try something like this:
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LME49710HA-X2-Adaptor-/180872434827?
> 
> Works for me and I went through a few duals before I found this. Now I don't feel the need for a change.




That Op Amp is the same as the LM4562 in terms of functionality.

One LM4562 = two LME49710


----------



## Chris J

conquerator2 said:


> By the way, will both of these work?
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/200762599501?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649
> 
> ...




Beware of fakes!
I would buy from a reputable vendor, like Parts Connexion, Mouser, Newark, Electrosonic, etc.


----------



## conquerator2

chris j said:


> Beware of fakes!
> I would buy from a reputable vendor, like Parts Connexion, Mouser, Newark, Electrosonic, etc.


 
 Well I already bought those...
 They are both reputable sellers so I hope they ain't fakes :]


----------



## blueangel2323

If you only need one piece you can order a free sample from Texas Instruments directly, so it's guaranteed to be genuine


----------



## conquerator2

blueangel2323 said:


> If you only need one piece you can order a free sample from Texas Instruments directly, so it's guaranteed to be genuine


 
 Now you tell me ... :]
 I am positive they'll be genuine


----------



## EinZweiDrei

what gain setting should i use with an hd598?
 10gain? 0gain?
 and will it pair well with it?


----------



## blueangel2323

einzweidrei said:


> what gain setting should i use with an hd598?
> 10gain? 0gain?
> and will it pair well with it?


 
 Either 0 or 10.
 10 will give you a bit more power and dynamics.
 0 gives you a lot finer volume control.


----------



## gustav29

Last night I decided to lower the gain from 18 down to 0. I'm using a set of AKG K702s. 

I kind of liked the sound stage being emitted at 0. Didn't seem as 'harsh' in the mids as 18 is. 

But wondering if the 'I know what I did' as opposed to an A/B test contributed to my thought.

Anyone with 702s listen at 0 gain on the M-stage?

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 4


----------



## Chris J

blueangel2323 said:


> Either 0 or 10.
> 10 will give you a bit more power and dynamics.
> 0 gives you a lot finer volume control.




The little switches don't adjust power, they adjust gain.

Anyway........once I adjust the volume, I can't tell the difference between 0, 10 and 18 dB of gain myself.

I usually stick with 10 dB of gain for my Qs 'cos I get finer volume control.

But your girlfriend is still hot.


----------



## elwappo99

gustav29 said:


> Last night I decided to lower the gain from 18 down to 0. I'm using a set of AKG K702s.
> 
> I kind of liked the sound stage being emitted at 0. Didn't seem as 'harsh' in the mids as 18 is.
> 
> ...


 
 Yup, mine is set at zero. I always leave my amplifiers at the lowest gain I need, for basically the same reason you found.


----------



## Chris J

elwappo99 said:


> Yup, mine is set at zero. I always leave my amplifiers at the lowest gain I need, for basically the same reason you found.




Some Op Amps may oscillate at low gain.

Try going back and forth a few times between 0 and 10 dB, assuming the Op Amp is not oscillating, after you go back and forth a few times you may think they sound the same.


----------



## conquerator2

LM4562 - slightly warm [installed, burning-in]
 TI1364 - somewhat bright, detailed [just a quick test, too bright for the K612]
 Stock [OPA2134] - more similar to the LM, but slightly more neutral perhaps [might get back to it, we'll see how the LM goes]
  
 The differences are very subtle though [nowhere near as obvious as I thought.
 Still its good to have a brighter, warmer and an op-amp in between :]


----------



## Chris J

conquerator2 said:


> LM4562 - slightly warm [installed, burning-in]
> TI1364 - somewhat bright, detailed [just a quick test, too bright for the K612]
> Stock [OPA2134] - more similar to the LM, but slightly more neutral perhaps [might get back to it, we'll see how the LM goes]
> 
> ...


 
  
 Agreed.
 The differences are very subtle.


----------



## Change is Good

Really hoping the K612 plays well with my M-Stage. It arrives tomorrow 

Thanks for giving that slight nudge, conq, and I'll definitely be sending them in to MLE for review.


----------



## conquerator2

change is good said:


> Really hoping the K612 plays well with my M-Stage. It arrives tomorrow
> 
> Thanks for giving that slight nudge, conq, and I'll definitely be sending them in to MLE for review.




That's awesome. 
Also, since I am using an M-Stage too, I have a feeling they'll play nicely


----------



## conquerator2

Why to I have to keep installing the driver over and over and over again whenever I turn off my PC/Matrix?


----------



## Maxvla

I don't know about your particular problem but I had one similar with the Mini-Is but it turned out I just needed to restart my computer. Now when I connect or disconnect or power cycle the Mini-Is they connect automatically just fine.


----------



## conquerator2

maxvla said:


> I don't know about your particular problem but I had one similar with the Mini-Is but it turned out I just needed to restart my computer. Now when I connect or disconnect or power cycle the Mini-Is they connect automatically just fine.




It is like the driver doesn't install anything.
It seems like a temporary storage since it doesn't really ask me where to save it.
It's recognized after the installation but the next day, it doesn't 
The driver just disappears...


----------



## blueangel2323

chris j said:


> The little switches don't adjust power, they adjust gain.
> 
> Anyway........once I adjust the volume, I can't tell the difference between 0, 10 and 18 dB of gain myself.
> 
> ...


 
 I didn't mean power in a technical sense (watts or whatever), but that +10db _sounds _subtly more powerful and dynamic. The difference is _very _slight. I do find that +18db does sound quite different though, in terms of sound stage, separation, and warmth. But yes, Nina is still hot. As ever.


----------



## Maxvla

Match the volumes and I doubt you'll be able to tell a difference.


----------



## conquerator2

I wonder if the newer version will be able to drive the HE-400i or HE-560.
It will obviously depend on the efficiency but it's been, which has been confirmed at 93 and 90db respectively. 
Does the Mstage outputs 400mw @35ohms too? We only know the 50ohms figure.
It can probably drive the 400i but I am a bit skeptical about the 560 ;/

Any experience with the HE-400/500 here?
Thanks


----------



## TooPoor

Any of you boys/girls running the M-Stage with the HE-500s (I know, practically rhetorical). With the recent price drop and accolades, I'm strongly considering adding the 500s. Just interested in the synergy this pair may or may not have. I have the newer HPA-2 USB version.


----------



## TooPoor

Wow... talk about a coincidence! You beat me to it Conquerator2!


----------



## Maxvla

So, do we want to keep the HPA-2 talk in this thread instead of moving to the 2014 M-Stage thread?

The new HPA-2 has increased power due to lowering the output impedance from 15 ohms to 10 ohms, which drives the transistors harder. The unit runs noticeably hotter, so be careful how you have it placed. I will be doing a comparison soon, but expect most of it to be centered on the DACs for the version with the USB DAC. The amp section is mostly the same parts.


----------



## chicolom

conquerator2 said:


> Any experience with the HE-400/500 here?


 
  
 I've used the HE-400 with the M-stage.  It worked fine.
  


maxvla said:


> So, do we want to keep the HPA-2 talk in this thread instead of moving to the 2014 M-Stage thread?
> 
> The new HPA-2 has increased power due to lowering the *output impedance from 15 ohms to 10 ohms*, which drives the transistors harder.


 
  
 The previous M-stage's headphone jack output impedance was 5 ohms...


----------



## Maxvla

I was told by Arthur, the USA distributor that it was 15 down to 10. I can ask him to verify with China if you want.


----------



## chicolom

maxvla said:


> I was told by Arthur, the USA distributor that it was 15 down to 10. I can ask him to verify with China if you want.


 
  
The specs have always stated that it was 5 ohms, so I'm not sure where the 15 is coming from.
  
 "• Output Impedance: line out 60Ω / phones out *5Ω*"


----------



## Maxvla

Yes, he and I recently discussed the site's specs being wrong on a few things.


----------



## elwappo99

toopoor said:


> Any of you boys/girls running the M-Stage with the HE-500s (I know, practically rhetorical). With the recent price drop and accolades, I'm strongly considering adding the 500s. Just interested in the synergy this pair may or may not have. I have the newer HPA-2 USB version.


 
  
 Hi! 
  
 Have an older M-stage, Schiit Vali, and Emotiva A-100 on hand. I think the M-stage does a pretty good job with the HE-500. On medium gain the volume easily goes past to what I think of as comfortable listening levels.


----------



## TooPoor

maxvla said:


> So, do we want to keep the HPA-2 talk in this thread instead of moving to the 2014 M-Stage thread?
> 
> The new HPA-2 has increased power due to lowering the output impedance from 15 ohms to 10 ohms, which drives the transistors harder. The unit runs noticeably hotter, so be careful how you have it placed. I will be doing a comparison soon, but expect most of it to be centered on the DACs for the version with the USB DAC. The amp section is mostly the same parts.


 

  I didn't see another thread, but would be more than happy to re-direct my inquiries to a more specific thread.


----------



## conquerator2

elwappo99 said:


> Hi!
> 
> Have an older M-stage, Schiit Vali, and Emotiva A-100 on hand. I think the M-stage does a pretty good job with the HE-500. On medium gain the volume easily goes past to what I think of as comfortable listening levels.



Was the Emo/Vali better though?
I used to have the Mini but went for the Mstage after selling it.
Do you feel like the headphone was loud but underamped (dynamics lacking, little bass, etc)? 
Thanks


----------



## Chris J

blueangel2323 said:


> I didn't mean power in a technical sense (watts or whatever), but that +10db _sounds_ subtly more powerful and dynamic. The difference is _very_ slight. I do find that +18db does sound quite different though, in terms of sound stage, separation, and warmth. But yes, Nina is still hot. As ever.




Oddly enough, I don't hear a difference between 0, 10 and 18 dB of gain, (after volume matching) but I do not like 20 dB of gain.
Weird? Yes, I know. Weird!


----------



## blueangel2323

chris j said:


> Oddly enough, I don't hear a difference between 0, 10 and 18 dB of gain, (after volume matching) but I do not like 20 dB of gain.
> Weird? Yes, I know. Weird!


 
 18 sounded a lot more intimate than 10 to me, and thicker in the lower mids too.


----------



## elwappo99

conquerator2 said:


> elwappo99 said:
> 
> 
> > Hi!
> ...


 
  
 Vali is a tough call. It definitely has a good synergy, but doesn't necessarily do well with bass heavy music. The Emotiva has a notable leg up on both in terms of detail and bass control/depth. 
  
 I don't really get the impression of the HE-500 being underdriven by the M-stage in the typical signs that orthodynamics give.


----------



## Chris J

blueangel2323 said:


> 18 sounded a lot more intimate than 10 to me, and thicker in the lower mids too.


 
  
 Maybe I should give it another go around the DIP switches!


----------



## Chris J

maxvla said:


> So, do we want to keep the HPA-2 talk in this thread instead of moving to the 2014 M-Stage thread?
> 
> The new HPA-2 has increased power due to lowering the output impedance from 15 ohms to 10 ohms, which drives the transistors harder. The unit runs noticeably hotter, so be careful how you have it placed. I will be doing a comparison soon, but expect most of it to be centered on the DACs for the version with the USB DAC. The amp section is mostly the same parts.


 
  
 That don't make no sense.
  
 Lowering the output impedance should make the amp more efficient, hence, run cooler.
 I suspect the real change was they reduced the series output resistor.....assuming the output impedance really did drop when they revised to HPA-2.


----------



## TooPoor

I can confirm one thing: It runs hot. Not Lyr hot, but definitely a lot warmer than most amps I've had. /end super technical analysis/


----------



## Chodi

blueangel2323 said:


> 18 sounded a lot more intimate than 10 to me, and thicker in the lower mids too.


 
 My observation about the gain thing is that when you change the resistor setting you are raising or lowering the gain to the opamp section .i.e driving it harder or slower. Depending on the specific opamp in use this could have a sonic result. Secondly but less important is that as you raise the volume pot you are putting less of the pot in the circuit. If the pot was wide open it would be out of the circuit. As you decrease the setting you are introducing more of the effect of the volume pot (which should be minimal but may be audible for some). So there is a rational argument that as you raise the gain you are driving the opamp harder and may notice some change in the sound. I do hear a slight difference between 10db and 18db setting but it is slight to be sure. It is about finding the sweet spot for the opamp you have selected.


----------



## Chris J

chodi said:


> My observation about the gain thing is that when you change the resistor setting you are raising or lowering the gain to the opamp section .i.e driving it harder or slower. Depending on the specific opamp in use this could have a sonic result. Secondly but less important is that as you raise the volume pot you are putting less of the pot in the circuit. If the pot was wide open it would be out of the circuit. As you decrease the setting you are introducing more of the effect of the volume pot (which should be minimal but may be audible for some). So there is a rational argument that as you raise the gain you are driving the opamp harder and may notice some change in the sound. I do hear a slight difference between 10db and 18db setting but it is slight to be sure. It is about finding the sweet spot for the opamp you have selected.




Define "driving the Op Amp harder".

You are not really driving the Op Amp harder......whatever that means.

I would argue most people increase the gain and decrease the volume to compensate, so the Op Amp output voltage is still the same.
Or decrease the gain and increase the volume to compensate.
So they are actually changing the SPL they normally listen at.
So it's not being "driven harder".

Raising and lowering the gain actually decreases and increases negative feedback.
So you could argue:
Less gain = more feedback = less distortion i.e. less THD, less IM
Less gain also leads to wider bandwidth and a higher SNR.


----------



## Chodi

chris j said:


> Define "driving the Op Amp harder".
> 
> You are not really driving the Op Amp harder......whatever that means.
> 
> ...


 
 So...if I understand correctly you are saying that the opamp is working at a fixed voltage and that the resistor/gain change follows the opamp to attenuate the output of the opamp? Of course, the output of the opamp is feeding the the input of the transistor modules.


----------



## Chris J

chodi said:


> So...if I understand correctly you are saying that the opamp is working at a fixed voltage and that the resistor/gain change follows the opamp to attenuate the output of the opamp? Of course, the output of the opamp is feeding the the input of the transistor modules.



 


Hard to relate some of these comments to Negative Feedback, but I will try. It's more accurate to say the Op Amp operates at a fixed voltage gain determined by the DIP switches . The DIP switches adjust the amount of resistance from the output stage to the input stage.

So we are actually controlling the amount of Negative Feedback.
The DIP switches adjust feedback by changing the resistance from output to input in the Op Amp circuit. 
Really, Negative Feedback is a method of improving many amplifier charateristics by returning a portion of the output back to the input of the Op Amp to cancel or reduce distortion, increase bandwidth and decrease output impedance and a few other things.

You can't really say the Op Amp operates at a fixed voltage, but you can say the amount of feedback determines the amount of Voltage Gain, or Voltage amplification.

0 dB of voltage gain means 0.1 Volts at the input = 0.1 Volt at the output. So gain is 1:1

20 dB of gain will work out to 0.1 Volts at the input = 1.0 Volts at the output. So you could say Gain is 10:1

It's a rather complicated topic.....................and involves something no one likes (except Sheldon Cooper) called "Mathematics".


----------



## Chodi

chris j said:


> chodi said:
> 
> 
> > So...if I understand correctly you are saying that the opamp is working at a fixed voltage and that the resistor/gain change follows the opamp to attenuate the output of the opamp? Of course, the output of the opamp is feeding the the input of the transistor modules.
> ...


 
 Chris, we are actually in complete agreement. All I was saying is that the amount of voltage amplification through the opamp can _possibly_ account for some sonic difference in the sound of the amplifier.Different opamps handle voltage amplification with slightly different specs so there is that factor also. So...someone claiming they hear a difference in the M Stage at different gain settings can't be tossed off as silly. Although those differences, if any, should be small.  I wasn't trying to launch this topic into Sound Science.


----------



## Chris J

chodi said:


> Chris, we are actually in complete agreement. All I was saying is that the amount of voltage amplification through the opamp can _possibly_ account for some sonic difference in the sound of the amplifier.Different opamps handle voltage amplification with slightly different specs so there is that factor also. So...someone claiming they hear a difference in the M Stage at different gain settings can't be tossed off as silly. Although those differences, if any, should be small.  I wasn't trying to launch this topic into Sound Science.


 
  
  
 Ohhhhh...........I happen to hate the Sound Science forum!





 Too much BS piled on top of BS for me thank you!
  
 I have no problem with anyone hearing a difference in different Op Amps and different gain settings!


----------



## chicolom

You guys are overcomplicating it...
  
 Headphone plugs into the hole in the front.  Turn the knob to the right to make it louder.


----------



## conquerator2

chicolom said:


> You guys are overcomplicating it...
> 
> Headphone plugs into the hole in the front.  Turn the knob to the right to make it louder.


 
 Some like plugging it in the back 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Banana plugs style


----------



## Chris J

chicolom said:


> You guys are overcomplicating it...
> 
> Headphone plugs into the hole in the front.  Turn the knob to the right to make it louder.


 
  
 I'll be sure to mention that to the designers next time I see them.
  
 BTW,
 maybe the next revision should have the option of front and rear entry.


----------



## chicolom




----------



## Maxvla

My view of the HPA-1 and the recently updated HPA-2, both USB DAC versions.

http://www.head-fi.org/products/matrix-m-stage-hpa-2-w-usb-dac/reviews/10470
http://www.head-fi.org/products/matrix-m-stage/reviews/10471

Same review contents and ratings, different pros/cons.


----------



## Chodi

maxvla said:


> My view of the HPA-1 and the recently updated HPA-2, both USB DAC versions.
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/products/matrix-m-stage-hpa-2-w-usb-dac/reviews/10470
> http://www.head-fi.org/products/matrix-m-stage/reviews/10471
> ...


 
 Excellent review!! I agree with every comment you made. I believe that the M Stage is very hard to beat with high impedance headphones. I have some much more expensive amps sitting here including tube amps and the M Stage equals or surpasses them all at a fraction of the cost. I originally bought it to use just for watching movies but it is so good it found it's way into my main system. I think you would have to reach over $1500 to safely have reason to retire the M Stage.


----------



## formula1

Thanks Max, i was expecting more feedback about the HPA-2. My classic M-stage will be looking for a new home


----------



## elwappo99

chodi said:


> maxvla said:
> 
> 
> > My view of the HPA-1 and the recently updated HPA-2, both USB DAC versions.
> ...


 
  
 I think the M-Stage is quite excellent for low impedance headphones as well. I can think of very few amplifiers that really worked so well in terms of noise floor and clarity with my Denon D7000. I can't think of any amplifier I've held onto for as long as my HPA-1. It just seems to fit the bill for any headphone. 
  
 Still would like to hear more about the HPA-2 vs HPA-1 only using the amplifier section. The HPA-2 does look really really nice. Hard to front that much money for a cosmetic change.


----------



## Maxvla

I couldn't really detect any differences and I am told the circuit is almost identical, so it is to be expected.


----------



## elwappo99

maxvla said:


> I couldn't really detect any differences and I am told the circuit is almost identical, so it is to be expected.


 
  
 Thanks much for the info. Guess I'll put my wallet away. I really wanted to justify that faceplate


----------



## TwelveTrains

Where is the official site to buy the M-Stage?
  
 The one I found seems kinda sketch...


----------



## Maxvla

www.matrix-digi-USA.com is the official North American distributor.


----------



## conquerator2

Anyone else experiencing great troubles with the drivers? They disappear, they crash my Windows, numerous reintalling, turning the MStage on/off...
 Something is amiss :/


----------



## GaToMaLaCo

conquerator2 said:


> Anyone else experiencing great troubles with the drivers? They disappear, they crash my Windows, numerous reintalling, turning the MStage on/off...
> Something is amiss :/


 
 Thats usually a consecuence of a bad usb port, cable connector or a vmware usb arbitration filter meesing arround. For de the first a the second use another usb cable an also switch to another usb port on your pc. For the third try to use the matrix on another pc.


----------



## jerrick85

conquerator2 said:


> Anyone else experiencing great troubles with the drivers? They disappear, they crash my Windows, numerous reintalling, turning the MStage on/off...
> Something is amiss :/




Great. I just bought one and you already making me nervous about the drivers. Just curious, what's your OS?


----------



## conquerator2

jerrick85 said:


> Great. I just bought one and you already making me nervous about the drivers. Just curious, what's your OS?


 
 Win 7 premium, 64-bit.


----------



## conquerator2

gatomalaco said:


> Thats usually a consecuence of a bad usb port, cable connector or a vmware usb arbitration filter meesing arround. For de the first a the second use another usb cable an also switch to another usb port on your pc. For the third try to use the matrix on another pc.


 
 I can try that, but it's strange as once it works, it works... Until you turn the PC/Matrix off.


----------



## Maxvla

I have no problem with my HPA-2 driver. Win 7 64bit also.


----------



## jerrick85

Did you try disabling driver signature check or may be any driver conflicts? Sorry I don't have any experience with m-stage yet.


----------



## GaToMaLaCo

conquerator2 said:


> gatomalaco said:
> 
> 
> > Thats usually a consecuence of a bad usb port, cable connector or a vmware usb arbitration filter meesing arround. For de the first a the second use another usb cable an also switch to another usb port on your pc. For the third try to use the matrix on another pc.
> ...


 
 Btw, by any chance, have you plug a halogen lamp nearby your setup? last year i had to give away my halogen lamp because it messed up with my matrix, seems it cause some interference that doesnt allow the usb dac to sincronize and i had to do the same as you, turn the amp off and then on to fix it. Strange as it seems....
  
 Also, open the amp, maybe you have a capacitor bulged or something.


----------



## conquerator2

gatomalaco said:


> Btw, by any chance, have you plug a halogen lamp nearby your setup? last year i had to give away my halogen lamp because it messed up with my matrix, seems it cause some interference that doesnt allow the usb dac to sincronize and i had to do the same as you, turn the amp off and then on to fix it. Strange as it seems....
> 
> Also, open the amp, maybe you have a capacitor bulged or something.


 
 No, there is no bulged capacitor in there as I changed the op-amp and didn't notice anything out of the ordinary...
 I do have halogen lights all over my room though ...


----------



## PTom

Has anyone here tried this with the Beyerdynamic T1?


----------



## jerrick85

DAC in HPA-2 is pretty good actually for the price. I received my mine today and pairing it with HD800.


----------



## conquerator2

^ yeah its not half bad


----------



## LilBuck

Hoping it works out, I am running the HD800s through a Xonar Essence ST currently (all I have at the moment) and the sound is a little harsh sometimes. Glad a lot of other people seem to enjoy the combo since it is a really reasonable price.


----------



## jerrick85

conquerator2 said:


> ^ yeah its not half bad



Did you got your driver problem fixed? No issues for me so far.


----------



## conquerator2

jerrick85 said:


> Did you got your driver problem fixed? No issues for me so far.


 
 No, I did not :/
 Still no idea what the culprit is...
 I have many external devices connected to it, including DACs in the past and this the only one causing me troubles.
 Reconnecting the DAC, or powering it on and off helps sometimes, but sometimes I have to restart my PC [or it crashes to a blue screen].
  
 It sucks but oh well...


----------



## elwappo99

conquerator2 said:


> jerrick85 said:
> 
> 
> > Did you got your driver problem fixed? No issues for me so far.
> ...




Are you using direct sound or are you using asio or bit perfect


----------



## Maxvla

I use WASAPI with my M-Stage HPA-2.


----------



## Chodi

ptom said:


> Has anyone here tried this with the Beyerdynamic T1?


 
 I have the Matrix M Stage amp (last version no dac) and the T1. I also have other amps including  tube amps. The Matrix M Stage amp pairs remarkably well with the T1's. I did upgrade the opamp in the M Stage as soon as I got it. It performs far above it's price point with the T1 and I also have the HD800 which works great with the M Stage. With the stock opamp it was just "ok" but with the upgraded opamp you would have to invest many times the price to get better performance. I cannot comment on their latest dac version as I have never heard it. I use a Yulong D18 dac.
  
 You can pm me for information on the opamp if you wish.


----------



## conquerator2

elwappo99 said:


> Are you using direct sound or are you using asio or bit perfect




I an using ASIO.

I tried re-instaling it many times. The first component always fails to install no matter what [MStage], while the second one always installs with the drivers [Matrix Audio MStage], which I suppose may or may not be important.

I am sure it's down to some sort of driver error, as everytime the device gets recognized [beep beep sound in Windows] it works and everytime it does not, it crashes. There is also the rare occurrance of drivers not being recognized and popping an unknown USB device error, which doesn't crash the Windows but doesn't recognize it either...

The Windows almost always crashes with my first cold start, bringing me a blue screen and a reboot and after that it usually registers properly.

If I turn the Matrix on before starting my PC it won't start at all [giving me a number error in the bottom right part of a screen] so I always wait for it to start first to see if it works or not...

It's a tedious and annoying process... I've tried re-installing the drivers on different discs,. in different manners , off the included disc or from, the internet... Nothing.


----------



## jerrick85

Although it looks like some kind of driver issue, Did you try with different usb and power cables?


----------



## conquerator2

jerrick85 said:


> Although it looks like some kind of driver issue, Did you try with different usb and power cables?




Tried 2 different USB cables.
Power cable is fine as the amp works flawlessly with my PS3 via RCAs. 
Only the PC is having issues...


----------



## jerrick85

So definitely this is a PC issue. Did you try different drivers? I mean I didn't used the driver came with it. I used the one from the website.


----------



## conquerator2

jerrick85 said:


> So definitely this is a PC issue. Did you try different drivers? I mean I didn't used the driver came with it. I used the one from the website.




I'd love to but the driver on the disc and on the website are the same...
Couldn't really find any older versions.


----------



## Chris J

chodi said:


> I have the Matrix M Stage amp (last version no dac) and the T1. I also have other amps including  tube amps. The Matrix M Stage amp pairs remarkably well with the T1's. I did upgrade the opamp in the M Stage as soon as I got it. It performs far above it's price point with the T1 and I also have the HD800 which works great with the M Stage. With the stock opamp it was just "ok" but with the upgraded opamp you would have to invest many times the price to get better performance. I cannot comment on their latest dac version as I have never heard it. I use a Yulong D18 dac.
> 
> You can pm me for information on the opamp if you wish.


 
  
 Don't be shy, post your Op Amp choice here!
  
 My favourite is the LM4562.


----------



## conquerator2

chris j said:


> Don't be shy, post your Op Amp choice here!
> 
> My favourite is the LM4562.


 
 +1 for the 4562.


----------



## elwappo99

conquerator2 said:


> elwappo99 said:
> 
> 
> > Are you using direct sound or are you using asio or bit perfect
> ...


 
  
 Total bummer. My experience with a few USB interfaces is I had a lot of blue screens with ASIO and WASAPI, but almost none if I used a direct sound. I noticed it happened a lot more when I was changing songs or browsing within a song.


----------



## jerrick85

conquerator2 said:


> I'd love to but the driver on the disc and on the website are the same...
> Couldn't really find any older versions.


 
 Yes, both are same but if you've tried only cd then at least try the one from the website, it's better to explore every option. If I were you, I would just reinstall the OS.


----------



## conquerator2

jerrick85 said:


> Yes, both are same but if you've tried only cd then at least try the one from the website, it's better to explore every option. If I were you, I would just reinstall the OS.


 
 I've tried both.
  
 I am almost sure it's not an OS and Id rather not resort to that.


----------



## conquerator2

elwappo99 said:


> Total bummer. My experience with a few USB interfaces is I had a lot of blue screens with ASIO and WASAPI, but almost none if I used a direct sound. I noticed it happened a lot more when I was changing songs or browsing within a song.


 
 It's strange. Audio GD used ASIO too and had no issue with it. I'll try switching to wasapi maybe but I'd rather not use DS.


----------



## Chris J

I used to have a lot of drama with USB connections when my OS was Windows XP to my DACs until I switched to Windows 8.1


----------



## conquerator2

chris j said:


> I used to have a lot of drama with USB connections when my OS was Windows XP to my DACs until I switched to Windows 8.1




It's a Windows 7 though... It's really an enigma to me...


----------



## Change is Good

Matrix M-stage 2012 version with USB DAC for only $209?!? That's a STEAL!!!
  
http://www.amazon.com/Matrix-M-Stage-Headphone-Amplifier-USB/dp/B00775POZW


----------



## Maxvla

Yeah, that's the older model. The DAC is not very good, but is functional. It's a good price. I think the old model with DAC was about $260ish from official sources.


----------



## TooPoor

Just put up my HPA-2 for sale if anyone in this thread is interested.


----------



## Chris J

toopoor said:


> Just put up my HPA-2 for sale if anyone in this thread is interested.


 
  
 And I just sold mine, I guess I'm kicked off the thread!


----------



## Change is Good

Wut?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Did you sell the HPA-1 or HPA-2?


----------



## conquerator2

Why so many sales all of a sudden? Are people not happy with it? ;/


----------



## Chris J

change is good said:


> Wut?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
> 
> Did you sell the HPA-1 or HPA-2?


 
  
 Oooops, to clarify I sold my HPA-1.
 It was the slightly older one without the little ventilation holes and no crappy USB connection.
 I'm raising some cash to buy a Matrix Quattro Balanced headphone amp.


----------



## TooPoor

Selling mine because the Project Ember took over. And a dedicated DAC.


----------



## Chris J

conquerator2 said:


> Why so many sales all of a sudden? Are people not happy with it? ;/


 
  
 I had no problems and no complaints.
 It's a nice amp for the money, I'd recommend one to anyone looking for an amp in that price range.
 Has enough power to drive almost any 'phone.
 Sounds better than my FiiO E09K or E12.
  
 I just have a bad case of "I wanna upgrade!"


----------



## conquerator2

chris j said:


> I had no problems and no complaints.
> It's a nice amp for the money, I'd recommend one to anyone looking for an amp in that price range.
> Has enough power to drive almost any 'phone.
> Sounds better than my FiiO E09K or E12.
> ...




That's something I understand. 
Hope thee Matrix will drive the more efficient 560 well... Hype!


----------



## Chris J

conquerator2 said:


> That's something I understand.
> Hope thee Matrix will drive the more efficient 560 well... Hype!


 
  
 Will drive the 560?
 I'm not understanding....sorry!


----------



## conquerator2

chris j said:


> Will drive the 560?
> I'm not understanding....sorry!




Hifiman HE-560


----------



## henree

I have noticed tha the right ear sound is significantly lower than the left. Any ideas what the culprit is? Switched different opamps, wires and tried my headpones on different amps.


----------



## Chodi

henree said:


> I have noticed tha the right ear sound is significantly lower than the left. Any ideas what the culprit is? Switched different opamps, wires and tried my headpones on different amps.


 
 If you have the original version with the gain switches on the bottom (like I do) then you may have the channels set different for gain (easy mistake to make). If you have the new model with the fixed gain and you have switched opamps then I am afraid it is service time.


----------



## henree

chodi said:


> If you have the original version with the gain switches on the bottom (like I do) then you may have the channels set different for gain (easy mistake to make). If you have the new model with the fixed gain and you have switched opamps then I am afraid it is service time.


 
 Thanks Chodi. I hardly ever look at the gain switches. I even forgot they were there.


----------



## henree

Since my Matrix is back. I popped in the Opa-amp LME49990 in. First impressions are airy and wider soundstage than the 4562 I had previously. Less bass and more dry sound. I don't think I have noticed much burn in with opas in the past. But I don't like the sonics of the 49990 as of now. So I will give it 50 hour of burn to see if things change. I was looking for something with a more fluid quality. The 4562 has too much in the highs especially vocally. But the wet sound and great bass is the reason I keep going back to it.


----------



## Chodi

henree said:


> Since my Matrix is back. I popped in the Opa-amp LME49990 in. First impressions are airy and wider soundstage than the 4562 I had previously. Less bass and more dry sound. I don't think I have noticed much burn in with opas in the past. But I don't like the sonics of the 49990 as of now. So I will give it 50 hour of burn to see if things change. I was looking for something with a more fluid quality. The 4562 has too much in the highs especially vocally. But the wet sound and great bass is the reason I keep going back to it.


 
 I've posted this before but here we go again:
  
 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LME49710HA-X2-Adaptor-/180872434827?
  
 This is the one that did it for me.


----------



## henree

chodi said:


> I've posted this before but here we go again:
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LME49710HA-X2-Adaptor-/180872434827?
> 
> This is the one that did it for me.


 
 Mmmnnn very exotic looking. If the 4562 has a little too much gain. Would this be okay for 25ohm Denon headphones?


----------



## Chodi

henree said:


> Mmmnnn very exotic looking. If the 4562 has a little too much gain. Would this be okay for 25ohm Denon headphones?


 
 Yes, the gain is adjustable on the bottom of the amp. I tried several opamps and the set I suggested was the best I have heard. Should not make any difference what headphones you are using. It will get the best the M Stage can deliver.


----------



## henree

chodi said:


> Yes, the gain is adjustable on the bottom of the amp. I tried several opamps and the set I suggested was the best I have heard. Should not make any difference what headphones you are using. It will get the best the M Stage can deliver.


 
 What are the sonic characteristics of this opamp? I do not want anything dry or flabby in the bass.


----------



## Chodi

henree said:


> What are the sonic characteristics of this opamp? I do not want anything dry or flabby in the bass.


 
 It is transparent and dynamic with tight bass. Goes very deep. Slightly on the warm side as that is the character of the M Stage.


----------



## Change is Good

chodi said:


> It is transparent and dynamic with tight bass. Goes very deep. Slightly on the warm side as that is the character of the M Stage.




Is this compared to stock or the LM4562?


----------



## YoYo JoKeR

Guys,
  
 What is your opinion on M stage VS O2 amp?
  
 There are very less comparisons between these two. Any light upon this topic would be really helpful.
  
 Purely based upon SQ, ignoring all other factors like price and portability.


----------



## Chodi

change is good said:


> Is this compared to stock or the LM4562?


 
 Compared to stock. Honestly it has been so long since I tried the LM4562 I can't recall. I just remember when I tried the combination I suggested it hit my sweet spot and locked in what I was looking for. I did not carry it any further as there was no need. I will warn you that no opamp is going to turn a $300 amp into a $2000 amp. At the $300 price point your risk level is very low. Everyone hears differently  and my experience is listening to mostly classical music. All I can tell you is that I have 2 tube amps and I have added the Auralic Taurus and the M Stage is not in the league of the Auralic but not completely embarrassed with the HD800's. That is high praise for the $300 M Stage.


----------



## Chris J

henree said:


> Mmmnnn very exotic looking. If the 4562 has a little too much gain. Would this be okay for 25ohm Denon headphones?




This is a very complicated question, but the simple answer is :

The LM4562 has as much gain as all the other Op Amps that can be used in the M Stage.
The gain is actually set by the DiP switches on the bottom of the amp, not by the choice of Op Amp.


----------



## henree

chris j said:


> This is a very complicated question, but the simple answer is :
> 
> The LM4562 has as much gain as all the other Op Amps that can be used in the M Stage.
> The gain is actually set by the DiP switches on the bottom of the amp, not by the choice of Op Amp.


 
 Maybe I shouldn't have said gain. I just notice that the 4562 for me is fatiguing. And I usually get a sense of my ears feeling plugged after listening to it. Thats with no gain toggled on the swithches. The opa 2107 and the 2134 have no effect at all on my ears. If I set the gain to 10 with the 2107 I will get fatigued.


----------



## Chris J

henree said:


> Maybe I shouldn't have said gain. I just notice that the 4562 for me is fatiguing. And I usually get a sense of my ears feeling plugged after listening to it. Thats with no gain toggled on the swithches. The opa 2107 and the 2134 have no effect at all on my ears. If I set the gain to 10 with the 2107 I will get fatigued.




Ah!
(He smacks his head!)
Now I am understanding!
Yes, I agree, the LM4562 is a bit brighter than the 2134!


----------



## Subatomic

Did the Class-A Bias mod on my HPA1 tonight. Thoughts:
  
Class-A Biased OP627AP (new) vs OPA2134 (old):

 Lows: slightly more power, punch/thump
Mids: more forward, both male and female vocals are brought forward a bit, and pretty nice.
 Highs: slightly more detail and sparkle
 Soundstage: Wider, really nice staging actually.
  
 Pretty happy with that


----------



## conquerator2

I have the LM4562 in now and am contemplating the 49710...
I also own ths LT1364 which is way too bright.


----------



## Maxvla

Mm LT1364 is my favorite with HD800s.


----------



## conquerator2

maxvla said:


> Mm LT1364 is my favorite with HD800s.




0_0 You gotta be kitten me!


----------



## Maxvla




----------



## conquerator2

I couldn't stand it with the K612!
The LM4562 solved that issue
issue... Well mostly but it's the headphones FR.


----------



## conquerator2

chodi said:


> Compared to stock. Honestly it has been so long since I tried the LM4562 I can't recall. I just remember when I tried the combination I suggested it hit my sweet spot and locked in what I was looking for. I did not carry it any further as there was no need. I will warn you that no opamp is going to turn a $300 amp into a $2000 amp. At the $300 price point your risk level is very low. Everyone hears differently  and my experience is listening to mostly classical music. All I can tell you is that I have 2 tube amps and I have added the Auralic Taurus and the M Stage is not in the league of the Auralic but not completely embarrassed with the HD800's. That is high praise for the $300 M Stage.


 
 Which way do you put the LM49710HA in? Can't see any markings to tell the tale. [Like with the LM4562 - there is a tiny notch in it, like with other conventional op-amps]


----------



## Chodi

conquerator2 said:


> Which way do you put the LM49710HA in? Can't see any markings to tell the tale. [Like with the LM4562 - there is a tiny notch in it, like with other conventional op-amps]


 
 From memory, because I don't want to open mine unless you are really stuck, the indicator is on the silk screen (printed image) on the top.


----------



## conquerator2

chodi said:


> From memory, because I don't want to open mine unless you are really stuck, the indicator is on the silk screen (printed image) on the top.




Ok thank you.
In case I am stuck I'll come back to ask you


----------



## Chodi

conquerator2 said:


> Ok thank you.
> In case I am stuck I'll come back to ask you


 
 Once you burn it in let us know what you think.


----------



## conquerator2

Will do but I just ordered it so it's weeks away 

EDIT: I own the new HPA-2 but since the amp section is identical mos likely, that shouldn't be an issue.


----------



## Change is Good

I really am going to miss this baby once it goes...
  
 The ride was fun!


----------



## Chris J

change is good said:


> I really am going to miss this baby once it goes...
> 
> The ride was fun!


 
  
 Which is why I want to get the Matrix Quattro balanced headphone amp!


----------



## conquerator2

chodi said:


> From memory, because I don't want to open mine unless you are really stuck, the indicator is on the silk screen (printed image) on the top.




I think a picture would be much obliged.
I'd rather be safe.
Thanks!


----------



## Chodi

conquerator2 said:


> I think a picture would be much obliged.
> I'd rather be safe.
> Thanks!


 
 Sorry for the late post I just noticed this. I sold my M Stage since I have the Auralic Taurus so no photo. The white dot (circle) printed on the top is the indication of the notch. Just use that for your reference.


----------



## conquerator2

chodi said:


> Sorry for the late post I just noticed this. I sold my M Stage since I have the Auralic Taurus so no photo. The white dot (circle) printed on the top is the indication of the notch. Just use that for your reference.




K, thanks!
That's what I've planned.


----------



## WEeziel

Would anyone have any idea why nothing comes out of my Matrix M-Stage to my headphones? Its like it just died for some reason. Ive checked the cabels, no problems. I have set my music player to pass the music through my S/PDIF port, I have PCM enabled in the xonar dg panel, but nothing. It worked fine a week ago, but suddenly it just died overnight. Im not sure what has happend. Any ideas what to check or what to do? Headphones work fine without the amp.


----------



## Maxvla

Is the right input selected with the switch on the front?


----------



## WEeziel

Tested both input, none worked.


----------



## marshallmole

I'm wondering if the M-stage can drive the AKG K340 eletrostatic-dynamic headphones. These are 400 ohm and 94 db so very power hungry. I'm currently driving them with an Emotiva speaker amp, but would like to get an office setup as well. Does anyone have relevant experiences? 
 Alternatively, if the m-stage can do justice to 600 Ohm Beyers, it could indicate that it's also good enough for the 340s.


----------



## Chris J

marshallmole said:


> I'm wondering if the M-stage can drive the AKG K340 eletrostatic-dynamic headphones. These are 400 ohm and 94 db so very power hungry. I'm currently driving them with an Emotiva speaker amp, but would like to get an office setup as well. Does anyone have relevant experiences?
> Alternatively, if the m-stage can do justice to 600 Ohm Beyers, it could indicate that it's also good enough for the 340s.




I have no direct experience, but I suspect the answer is no, it will not drive K340s.

But it easily drives 600 Ohm Beyers. They don't really take that much power, approx. 1-10 mW.


----------



## marshallmole

That's kind of frustrating but possibly true... In my experience, K340s require a bit more volume than 600 ohm DT990s to reach the same loudness, but that doesn't mean optimal performance...the Emotiva a-100 really opens it up, but I don't want another bulky speaker amp on my office desk. I was looking for a DAC+amp combo that's powerful enough and reasonably compact. This seems to be quite a challenge now...
 Thanks Crhis J!


----------



## Maxvla

How about something like this Topping T-30 15WPC? Small, attractive, and even has a DAC (no idea the quality). Topping amps are inexpensive, but regarded well for what they are. I'm assuming you have speaker connections on your K340 if you are already using a speaker amp.

http://www.amazon.com/Topping-TP30-Digital-Amplifier-USB-DAC/dp/B005D7SKWK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1398020718&sr=8-1&keywords=topping+tp30

more pictures: http://www.parts-express.com/topping-tp30-class-t-digital-mini-amplifier-with-usb-dac-15-wpc--310-312?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=pla



Or if you'd rather just an amp, the TP21 ups the power and nixes the built in DAC for less money:

http://www.parts-express.com/topping-tp21-class-t-digital-mini-amplifier-25-wpc-with-headphone-output--310-310


----------



## elwappo99

marshallmole said:


> That's kind of frustrating but possibly true... In my experience, K340s require a bit more volume than 600 ohm DT990s to reach the same loudness, but that doesn't mean optimal performance...the Emotiva a-100 really opens it up, but I don't want another bulky speaker amp on my office desk. I was looking for a DAC+amp combo that's powerful enough and reasonably compact. This seems to be quite a challenge now...
> Thanks Crhis J!


 
  
 In my experience, you're not gonna get the same SQ experience from a headphone amp on a few of the very power hungry headphones. I don't think you'll find any that have the power for them.


----------



## marshallmole

maxvla said:


> How about something like this Topping T-30 15WPC? Small, attractive, and even has a DAC (no idea the quality). Topping amps are inexpensive, but regarded well for what they are. I'm assuming you have speaker connections on your K340 if you are already using a speaker amp.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Topping-TP30-Digital-Amplifier-USB-DAC/dp/B005D7SKWK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1398020718&sr=8-1&keywords=topping+tp30
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks Maxvla! I know this is taking you guys off-topic, sorry! The topping amps seem to be a very hopeful option. I will look into them carefully.


----------



## marshallmole

elwappo99 said:


> In my experience, you're not gonna get the same SQ experience from a headphone amp on a few of the very power hungry headphones. I don't think you'll find any that have the power for them.


 
 I must agree that the K340s is one of them. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I might be one of the few guys today still playing with these... Thanks!


----------



## TooPoor

Honest question: I've dropped my HPA-2 down to $225 in the FS forums and continue to not really get any interest. Is my pricing reasonable? Or is this just not a desirable amp at the moment?


----------



## elwappo99

marshallmole said:


> elwappo99 said:
> 
> 
> > In my experience, you're not gonna get the same SQ experience from a headphone amp on a few of the very power hungry headphones. I don't think you'll find any that have the power for them.
> ...


 
  
 I think I've owned 2 or 3 pairs. There is something really special about that headphone.
  
 Something to note, in case you didn't know, is I believe all topping amplifiers run on a tripath design, meaning you do need a balanced recable on your K340 to use them (someone correct me if I'm wrong on the tripath).


----------



## Maxvla

The Topping amps I linked to above have standard speaker outputs. I assume since he has the K340 in use with a speaker amp already, he has reterminated to bananas or something.


----------



## conquerator2

toopoor said:


> Honest question: I've dropped my HPA-2 down to $225 in the FS forums and continue to not really get any interest. Is my pricing reasonable? Or is this just not a desirable amp at the moment?




I think it's a reasonable price. Dunno why it ain't selling man.


----------



## Chris J

toopoor said:


> Honest question: I've dropped my HPA-2 down to $225 in the FS forums and continue to not really get any interest. Is my pricing reasonable? Or is this just not a desirable amp at the moment?




Let's just say I sold my HPA-1 for $150.
Does yours have the USB DAC?
mine did not.


----------



## TooPoor

Yes, it does.


----------



## elwappo99

conquerator2 said:


> toopoor said:
> 
> 
> > Honest question: I've dropped my HPA-2 down to $225 in the FS forums and continue to not really get any interest. Is my pricing reasonable? Or is this just not a desirable amp at the moment?
> ...


 
  
 I think the M-stage HPA-1 was such a FOTM type amp that about 6 months ago a ton of them were selling used.
  
 I think you might want to include that it's a "USB DAC" and not just "USB". If the DAC is decent seems like a good all in one for a computer type rig.


----------



## Chris J

toopoor said:


> Yes, it does.



Hey, why are you selling your Bushmaster?
I love mine!


----------



## TooPoor

I love mine as well! Just looking to go with something balanced for a future balanced setup. Or if I like it enough with my newest (incoming amp = La Figaro 339) then I'll keep it!


----------



## Chris J

toopoor said:


> I love mine as well! Just looking to go with something balanced for a future balanced setup. Or if I like it enough with my newest (incoming amp = La Figaro 339) then I'll keep it!




I understand.
I was thinking about getting a Matrix Quattro amp myself, so I'll need a balanced output DAC to go with it.


----------



## conquerator2

chodi said:


> Sorry for the late post I just noticed this. I sold my M Stage since I have the Auralic Taurus so no photo. The white dot (circle) printed on the top is the indication of the notch. Just use that for your reference.


 
 Solved.


----------



## Chodi

conquerator2 said:


> Well, it is definitely not the volume knob...
> Thing started to smell really bad.
> Putting it in the other way seems to work normally.
> Though I won't test until later to see if the damage has been done.
> ...


 
 Sorry to hear. I had already sold mine so it was impossible for me to open and check. Anyway, if you reversed it and it is playing music it is working and you should be fine. If you ordered it from the folks in Thailand on ebay it was certainly not a fake. I used mine for a long time and enjoyed it but when I upgraded to the Taurus it was no contest. I sold the M Stage the next day.


----------



## conquerator2

restored.
  
 Replaced with new resistors:


----------



## Chodi

conquerator2 said:


> The good news is that it is working normally so far.
> The R1 and R4 components seemed to have burned out though but that's about the excess of the damage...
> Recommendations?
> Keep using it or not?
> ...


 
 Those two resistors probably have not failed or you would not be getting normal if any sound. You might want to have those two resistors changed at some point. They are  common resistors. If you don't want to do it any tech can change them in a few minutes. I would advise changing them out as they might work for ever or they might fail.


----------



## conquerator2

chodi said:


> Those two resistors probably have not failed or you would not be getting normal if any sound. You might want to have those two resistors changed at some point. They are  common resistors. If you don't want to do it any tech can change them in a few minutes. I would advise changing them out as they might work for ever or they might fail.




solved.


----------



## conquerator2

solved and fixed.


----------



## Chris J

conquerator2 said:


> The good news is that it is working normally so far.
> 
> The R1 and R4 components seemed to have burned out though but that's about the excess of the damage...
> 
> ...



 


Can you take a photo with a wider angle?
Hard to tell where these resistors are on the circuit board.
If the feedback resistors were to open up, you could destroy your headphones


----------



## conquerator2

fixed.


----------



## GaToMaLaCo

This is a pic from my M-Stage from 2012, seems they in Matrix had a different set of resistors back then,


----------



## Chodi

conquerator2 said:


> On the matter of the op-amp, I think it's great. It shaves off a bit of sibilance and sounds a bit more spacious than the LM4562. It is still burning-in though.
> I'll have the two half-burnt resistors changed, a friend of mine knows this stuff.


 
 Good idea change them soon to avoid problems. If your friend is not handy with a soldering iron then any tech shop that does repair could do it as it is a simple repair.


----------



## Chris J

gatomalaco said:


> This is a pic from my M-Stage from 2012, seems they in Matrix had a different set of resistors back then,


 
  
 They changed the board layout.


----------



## conquerator2

The cool thing about the Mstage is that each Op-amp does offer a slight different tonality:
 Stock Opa - neutral
 LT1364 - bright 
 LM4562 - neutral - bright
 LME49710HA - neutral - warm
  
 So they do cater to different headphones, which is nice.
  
 In order of preference now - 49710HA > LM4562 > Stock > LT1364 [subject to change]
  
 Very versatile little amp :]


----------



## tdockweiler

conquerator2 said:


> The cool thing about the Mstage is that each Op-amp does offer a slight different tonality:
> Stock Opa - neutral
> LT1364 - bright
> LM4562 - neutral - bright
> ...


 
  
 Somehow I'm a fan of the OPA2134. There has not been an amp with that where I haven't liked it. E9 is the "worse", but still good (for the money).
 The M-Stage, Headroom Micro Amp, iFI iCAN and E9 all use the 2134.
 Some say it's slow, laid back or dark, but I don't think so at all.
  
 I tried the OPA2227 and it seems a little warmer, but yet has a wider soundstage(!).
  
 I put the LM4562 in my O2 and it was a fail with the stock Q701, but when modded it sounds great.
 LM4562 with a DT-990 would totally ruin my ears I think.


----------



## musicman7

Hi, i just got a matrix m-stage to run my new fostex th-600's. I was hoping that someone could point me in the direction of the right dac to use. I have been looking and i have seen recommendations for the music streamer 2. I was wondering how this would compare to the matrix m-stage dac. I was also wondering if it is a bad thing to have a DAC run off of the power supply from my laptop through the usb compared to its own power supply. Lastly would something like the Nuforce icon hdp or the Audio GD 11.32 be a better option sound wise.
  
 Thanks,
 Zach


----------



## elwappo99

musicman7 said:


> Hi, i just got a matrix m-stage to run my new fostex th-600's. I was hoping that someone could point me in the direction of the right dac to use. I have been looking and i have seen recommendations for the music streamer 2. I was wondering how this would compare to the matrix m-stage dac. I was also wondering if it is a bad thing to have a DAC run off of the power supply from my laptop through the usb compared to its own power supply. Lastly would something like the Nuforce icon hdp or the Audio GD 11.32 be a better option sound wise.
> 
> Thanks,
> Zach


 
  
 Congrats Zach,
  
 I purchased my M-stage by a member who thought it was a great match for the Denon D7000, and I agree (D7000 is identical to the TH-600, give or take a bit). 
  
 You won't necessarily find anyone giving a "perfect" match in terms of a DAC. You can match headphones and amps for synergy, but not as often amps/DACs matching. I'd search for a good quality unit that gets good reviews. Usually you want your DAC to sound as neutral as possible, which is why many DACs sound very similar, just with varying levels of performance (details, soundstage, imaging, etc).
  
 In terms of power, usually DACs that only run off of USB power don't sound as good. I think one of the bigger factors in DACs is the quality of the power. In that case, the power is coming from a USB port, which can really vary performance. I'm always a fan of Audio-GD dacs and think they sound great, but I also have to admit there are a lot of other really good DACs out in the market.


----------



## Change is Good

In case anyone is interested in upgrading their volume dial to a larger size, I have a spare one for sale...


----------



## conquerator2

I am very happy that the LME49710HA [that chodi recommended] is a very good op-amp. It beats all the other I've tried [stock, LM4562 and LT1364]. It is probably most similar to the 4562 [duh!] but a bit more musical and the treble is better rounded IMO. Depending on the headphone though, it's a toss up. LT1364 was the brightest IMO, then LM4562, which is a toss-up between the stock one in neutral-warm and then 49710 which is IMO warmest... But the versatility it offers is great!


----------



## nickwin

musicman7 said:


> Hi, i just got a matrix m-stage to run my new fostex th-600's. I was hoping that someone could point me in the direction of the right dac to use. I have been looking and i have seen recommendations for the music streamer 2. I was wondering how this would compare to the matrix m-stage dac. I was also wondering if it is a bad thing to have a DAC run off of the power supply from my laptop through the usb compared to its own power supply. Lastly would something like the Nuforce icon hdp or the Audio GD 11.32 be a better option sound wise.
> 
> Thanks,
> Zach




The m stage is a fairly colored amp and I would recommend pairing it with a neutral DAC. I think the yulong D100 mkii is one of the better neutral dacs for what they sell for used and it pairs well with the m stage. The ODAC is also a good option for a USB powered less expensive alternative that still performs very well.


----------



## conquerator2

I'd wager the op-amp choice has also a lot to do with it. It can range anywhere from warm to warmish neutral, to even brighter IMO.


----------



## nickwin

Op amp choice certainly makes a difference but imo the m stage will always be a warm amp. I went from class a bias opA627 to lm4562 and the later seemed much brighter and more neutral to me. That said in the last few days I have compared the m stage with lm4562 to the o2 amp and the shanling d100 mkii amp, both of which I know are truly neutral Because they have published measured frequency response graphs that are razor flat from below 10hz to well beyond 20k. 

 I'm blown away by how much more treble energy there is on both of those amps compared to the m stage. It is not a subtle difference, the m stage has a rolled of treble and a warm tonality. It's not that the other amps sound better, they are just more neutral. IMO the mids really stand out on the m stage (in a good way). The laid back treble is the reason it pairs so well with k701s ( it also made the top end of the dt990s bearable to my ears, not so much with the o2). On the flip side I think it makes my Mad Dogs overly dark compared to the shanling d100 amp which makes them sound borderline neutral.

IMO op amp changes can tweak the sound, but an m stage will always sound more like an m stage than another amp regardless of what op amp you use.

I'd really like to see some measurements of the m stage if anyone knows where I could find them.


----------



## mthucs

Hi Guys,
  
 I just had a quick question about my current audio set up.
  
 I am currently running an Asus Xonar ST card via optical cable to my HK AVR745 receiver which then powers my Mirsch speakers.
  
 I recently purchased a Matrix M-Stage to power my new AKG K712s and noticed I can use it as a pre-amp.
  
 Would I theoretically get better sound (for my speakers) running the sound card via RCA to the M-Stage and then again (via RCA) to the receiver or would the digital (optical) output from the sound card trump this setup?
  
 Thanks for your thoughts.
  
 Min.
  
 P.S. Sorry if this is in the wrong thread.


----------



## Stillhart

nickwin said:


> Op amp choice certainly makes a difference but imo the m stage will always be a warm amp. I went from class a bias opA627 to lm4562 and the later seemed much brighter and more neutral to me. That said in the last few days I have compared the m stage with lm4562 to the o2 amp and the shanling d100 mkii amp, both of which I know are truly neutral Because they have published measured frequency response graphs that are razor flat from below 10hz to well beyond 20k.
> 
> I'm blown away by how much more treble energy there is on both of those amps compared to the m stage. It is not a subtle difference, the m stage has a rolled of treble and a warm tonality. It's not that the other amps sound better, they are just more neutral. IMO the mids really stand out on the m stage (in a good way). The laid back treble is the reason it pairs so well with k701s ( it also made the top end of the dt990s bearable to my ears, not so much with the o2). On the flip side I think it makes my Mad Dogs overly dark compared to the shanling d100 amp which makes them sound borderline neutral.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Oh, nice post!  I've been using my M-stage with my Q701 and just loving the combo.  But I recently picked up a pair of Mad Dogs and they're FAR too dark with the M-stage.  I've been looking for something to maybe replace the M-stage that works well with both headphones.
  
 On my short list right now are the Yulong D100 and the Audio-GD 15.x (Wolfson DAC) and 11.x (same thing but Sabre DAC).  How do you find the D100 pairs with the K701?
  
 Anyone know how those three amps compare with the M-stage when it comes to bright/dark?


----------



## conquerator2

Strange I don't find the Mstage particularly warm or dark. Then again I am using it with the K612 but I tried with the X1 and MA900 and didn't find it too warm. Might be because I have the 2014's HPA-2 with the DAC module, which I use. Could be either the DAC or amp is brighter (probably DAC)...
That's also when the op-amp rolling cones into place. It audibly changes the sound IMO. You can get any flavour you want.
I owned a bunch of different components (check sig) and I did not find the Mstage out of the ordinary in terns of what I consider neutral-ish.
But again, it really is down to the opamp imo...


----------



## Stillhart

conquerator2 said:


> Strange I don't find the Mstage particularly warm or dark. Then again I am using it with the K612 but I tried with the X1 and MA900 and didn't find it too warm. Might be because I have the 2014's HPA-2 with the DAC module, which I use. Could be either the DAC or amp is brighter (probably DAC)...
> That's also when the op-amp rolling cones into place. It audibly changes the sound IMO. You can get any flavour you want.
> I owned a bunch of different components (check sig) and I did not find the Mstage out of the ordinary in terns of what I consider neutral-ish.
> But again, it really is down to the opamp imo...


 
 Well I've got @Change is Good's old one and I know he changed the opamp, but I couldn't say what to or how it changed the sound.  It's an HPA-1 with DAC, but I don't use the DAC.  I just know that the MD's are far too dark/warm for my taste with the M-stage.  I tried them with my E11 (underpowered, I know) and I like the sound better, if you can believe that.


----------



## conquerator2

Sure I believe you 
We all hear differently and synergy is a thing too


----------



## nickwin

conquerator2 said:


> Strange I don't find the Mstage particularly warm or dark. Then again I am using it with the K612 but I tried with the X1 and MA900 and didn't find it too warm. Might be because I have the 2014's HPA-2 with the DAC module, which I use. Could be either the DAC or amp is brighter (probably DAC)...
> That's also when the op-amp rolling cones into place. It audibly changes the sound IMO. You can get any flavour you want.
> I owned a bunch of different components (check sig) and I did not find the Mstage out of the ordinary in terns of what I consider neutral-ish.
> But again, it really is down to the opamp imo...




The hpa-2 might be different but the difference in sound between the the mstage and a really neutral amp the o2, was pretty obvious. I think most people would hear the difference. IMO the reason it is so popular with the K70x and q701 is because it has a laid back treble. Those are treble tilted headphones, they work well with warm amps.


----------



## nickwin

stillhart said:


> Oh, nice post!  I've been using my M-stage with my Q701 and just loving the combo.  But I recently picked up a pair of Mad Dogs and they're FAR too dark with the M-stage.  I've been looking for something to maybe replace the M-stage that works well with both headphones.
> 
> On my short list right now are the Yulong D100 and the Audio-GD 15.x (Wolfson DAC) and 11.x (same thing but Sabre DAC).  How do you find the D100 pairs with the K701?
> 
> Anyone know how those three amps compare with the M-stage when it comes to bright/dark?




Thanks! To my ears the d100 is more neutral and extended in the highs than the mstage. To me It sounds almost identical to the o2. The bass on the mstage seems to have a little more energy but it also sounds a little less tight. The D100 also outputs 900mw at 32 ohms instead of 400 on the mstage. All these thing make it better for the mad dogs IMO. It sounds fine with the k701s except that your getting their full treble extension and personally it's just too fatiguing with 90% of the music I listen to (I have the old 7 bump version so YMMV). If you only listen to super high quality recordings it would probably be a good combo. It might be hard to find one amp that makes the best of both those cans but the mstage is considered warm and the o2 and d100 are considered fairly bright so maybe you could find something right in the middle.


----------



## Chris J

The M Stage may also be a warmer amp as it is possible that the M Stage's output stage adds a touch of second order harmonic distortion.
Without measurements, that's just a theory!


----------



## WEeziel

weeziel said:


> Would anyone have any idea why nothing comes out of my Matrix M-Stage to my headphones? Its like it just died for some reason. Ive checked the cabels, no problems. I have set my music player to pass the music through my S/PDIF port, I have PCM enabled in the xonar dg panel, but nothing. It worked fine a week ago, but suddenly it just died overnight. Im not sure what has happend. Any ideas what to check or what to do? Headphones work fine without the amp.


 

 Any help?


----------



## nickwin

chris j said:


> The M Stage may also be a warmer amp as it is possible that the M Stage's output stage adds a touch of second order harmonic distortion.
> Without measurements, that's just a theory!



This would make a lot of sense to me. Iv always thought the mstage was a bit euphonic. I wish we had measurments for his thing!


----------



## Chris J

nickwin said:


> This would make a lot of sense to me. Iv always thought the mstage was a bit euphonic. I wish we had measurments for his thing!



 


Yep, I wish we had measurements!
It may be a touch warm sounding, but I suspect the frequency response is as flat as a calm sea.


----------



## nickwin

chris j said:


> nickwin said:
> 
> 
> > This would make a lot of sense to me. Iv always thought the mstage was a bit euphonic. I wish we had measurments for his thing!
> ...



When you say "warm" what do you mean exactly? I know people use the word different ways but i've alway thought that in general it referred to a sound signature where the mids were more prominent than the treble. I assume your using the word differently because your saying it's both warm and has a neutral frequency response?


----------



## Chris J

nickwin said:


> When you say "warm" what do you mean exactly? I know people use the word different ways but i've alway thought that in general it referred to a sound signature where the mids were more prominent than the treble. I assume your using the word differently because your saying it's both warm and has a neutral frequency response?




Ummmmm...I know it when I hear it?

I typically used my Matrix M-Stage with an LM4562, so my impressions are really based on that Op Amp with the M.
I call it warm because the treble was not harsh or strident or glassy, OTOH the bass was very nicely controlled. 

I think with amps we may call this amp warm or that amp analytical, but if you were to put both on a test bench you would probably find that they both had an extremely flat frequency response.


----------



## 8mike8

Hey guys,

 I use the m-stage (stock op-amp) together with my Q701s..
 something I noticed while playing with it:
 When set on 0db gain, I have a massive soundstage, but the bass is lacking, and the mids lack a "kick" to them.
 When set on 10db, the soundstage gets extremely reduced(like none), I get the "kick", and the frequency response feels all over the place (the lows deminish the highs).
 When set on 18db, soundstage is back! and everything sounds very balanced.
 How come? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 Is my m-stage faulty on 10db? anyone else experienced it?

 I have ordered a couple of op-amps, to try. could they fix this issue?
 Thanks!


----------



## Chris J

8mike8 said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 


Hmmm....once I adjusted for volume, I had a hard time differentiating between 0, 10 and 18 dB of gain.
Did you compare using an SPL meter to match SPL?

I found that 20 dB sounded a bit lifeless, which makes no sense!

I wouldn't try comparing different gain settings until the M Stage has had an hour or two to warm up.


----------



## 8mike8

Well, it had at least a few hours of warm up, so that should't be the issue.
 Didn't try the 20db yet, so no comment on that 

 I don't have a spl meter, aside from an android app, and my ears 

 BTW, am I correct on assuming, that I must turn off the amp, before changing the gain?

 P.S: I've got the 2.1 version of m-stage.


----------



## conquerator2

8mike8 said:


> Well, it had at least a few hours of warm up, so that should't be the issue.
> Didn't try the 20db yet, so no comment on that
> 
> I don't have a spl meter, aside from an android app, and my ears
> ...


 
 You don't have to turn it off before switching the gain, I am pretty positive about this


----------



## 8mike8

Thanks,

 Just remembered that the objective o2 has a gain switch at the front.. stupid me.

 Wish there was one on the m-stage as well.. some music just sounds a lot better on 0db, while other on 18db. 

 Any guide on converting the input switch at the front, to a gain switch? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 

 (I really should learn to use the quote button)


----------



## Chris J

conquerator2 said:


> You don't have to turn it off before switching the gain, I am pretty positive about this




You don't have to turn the Matrix off, but you should turn the volume down when you increase the gain to 18 dB with your headphones on and music playing!

A bit obvious, just thought I would say it anyway.
Not trying to insult anyone's intelligence, BTW.


----------



## conquerator2

If anyone is looking to buy the HPA2 w/ USB module with extra op-amps for a very good price - http://www.head-fi.org/t/720588/fs-2014-matrix-mstage-hpa-2-w-usb-module-dac-extra-op-amps


----------



## EinZweiDrei

is there a difference between LM4562 LM4562MA, and LM4562NA?


----------



## Chris J

Just the packaging.
It's the same amplifier, though.


----------



## EinZweiDrei

i wonder how the LM4562 would compare to the LME49710HA with a HRT MS2 dac and K/Q701 on a my M-Stage setup.


----------



## Garraty

How well will the Matrix M-Stage drive a headphone like the HD600? Will it sound too warm perhaps or can this be remedied by using a different op-amp? Can the M-Stage drive orthos such as the HE-400 and HE-500? Thanks!


----------



## conquerator2

garraty said:


> How well will the Matrix M-Stage drive a headphone like the HD600? Will it sound too warm perhaps or can this be remedied by using a different op-amp? Can the M-Stage drive orthos such as the HE-400 and HE-500? Thanks!




Personally, owning the Mstage recently, I'd recommend it for use with neutral, possibly even bright cans. The HD600 might be too warm with it.... Similarly it might drive the 400 ok but the 500 would certainly benefit from more power.
Personally, I'd recommend at a few extra bucks some of the Audio GD products, like the NFB15, NFB11 or even the Compass2. Or things similar to the Mstage but cheaper - Hifiman's own EF2a
or as a standalone amp the Schiit Vali. Or Aune X1 or T1...
Mstage is good for fairly neutral headphones and I'd consider the HD600 too dark and the Hifomans too power hungry.


----------



## Garraty

conquerator2 said:


> Personally, owning the Mstage recently, I'd recommend it for use with neutral, possibly even bright cans. The HD600 might be too warm with it.... Similarly it might drive the 400 ok but the 500 would certainly benefit from more power.
> Personally, I'd recommend at a few extra bucks some of the Audio GD products, like the NFB15, NFB11 or even the Compass2. Or things similar to the Mstage but cheaper - Hifiman's own EF2a
> or as a standalone amp the Schiit Vali. Or Aune X1 or T1...
> Mstage is good for fairly neutral headphones and I'd consider the HD600 too dark and the Hifomans too power hungry.


 
  
 Ah, thanks. With a brighter op-amp, could the Matrix M-Stage work well with the HD600's?


----------



## conquerator2

garraty said:


> Ah, thanks. With a brighter op-amp, could the Matrix M-Stage work well with the HD600's?




The stock one is fairly neutral, then the LM4562 is slightly more bodied in the bass and brighter in the treble. The LT1364 was the brightest from initial listening.
Those are the price friendly possibilities 
Keep in mind that the Mstage has forward midrange by nature, which might make headphones with forward mids too aggressive, even out bassy shaped headphones or bloat bass heavy cans... Lots of it depends on the op-amps mentioned above.


----------



## Garraty

conquerator2 said:


> The stock one is fairly neutral, then the LM4562 is slightly more bodied in the bass and brighter in the treble. The LT1364 was the brightest from initial listening.
> Those are the price friendly possibilities
> Keep in mind that the Mstage has forward midrange by nature, which might make headphones with forward mids too aggressive, even out bassy shaped headphones or bloat bass heavy cans... Lots of it depends on the op-amps mentioned above.


 
  
 Hmm, I can't decide between the Schiit Valhalla 2 or the M-Stage.


----------



## conquerator2

garraty said:


> Hmm, I can't decide between the Schiit Valhalla 2 or the M-Stage.




Schiit Valhalla 2 should work better with the higher impedance HD600. Higher power output but might produce an even warmer sound.
The Mstage would offer the bare minimum power required for the Hifimans, driving the HE-400 fine and the 500 just so so.
Valhalla is made for high impedance headphones, Mstage will work well with most reasonably efficient 32 - 150 ohm headphones.


----------



## Garraty

conquerator2 said:


> Schiit Valhalla 2 should work better with the higher impedance HD600. Higher power output but might produce an even warmer sound.
> The Mstage would offer the bare minimum power required for the Hifimans, driving the HE-400 fine and the 500 just so so.
> Valhalla is made for high impedance headphones, Mstage will work well with most reasonably efficient 32 - 150 ohm headphones.


 
  
 Really? I've heard the Valhalla 2 is a bit neutral for a tube amp so I thought it would work well since the HE-400 (and the upcoming HE-400i) are pretty efficient at I believe under 100 ohms even if they're orthos. Do you know of any amps that would work well with either of the two? (the HD600 or the HE-400i) I've checked out Audio-GD before but there aren't too many impressions from what I've seen.


----------



## conquerator2

garraty said:


> Really? I've heard the Valhalla 2 is a bit neutral for a tube amp so I thought it would work well since the HE-400 (and the upcoming HE-400i) are pretty efficient at I believe under 100 ohms even if they're orthos. Do you know of any amps that would work well with either of the two? (the HD600 or the HE-400i) I've checked out Audio-GD before but there aren't too many impressions from what I've seen.




I have the Compass2 myself and the lower models are basically just slightly dumbed down versions.
Audio GD represents great value and they generally work with most headphones very well...
Valhalla is great for higher impedance and Mstage is great with most low to mid impedance phones...
Valhalla is the one I haven't heard though so if you say it's neutral I'll take your word for it.


----------



## Garraty

conquerator2 said:


> I have the Compass2 myself and the lower models are basically just slightly dumbed down versions.
> Audio GD represents great value and they generally work with most headphones very well...
> Valhalla is great for higher impedance and Mstage is great with most low to mid impedance phones...
> Valhalla is the one I haven't heard though so if you say it's neutral I'll take your word for it.


 
 If the M-Stage could power and worked well with the HE-400, d'you think it would work well with the HE-400i? (more of a forward midrange, which I personally like)


----------



## conquerator2

garraty said:


> If the M-Stage could power and worked well with the HE-400, d'you think it would work well with the HE-400i? (more of a forward midrange, which I personally like)




Yes it would.
The midrange would be really forward though, probably too much to my liking.


----------



## 3rdmortal

M-Stage is not an aggressive at all. It is detailed and quite neutral. It works excellent with high impendance headphones (well, of course considering its price). And it is written on the web-site of Matrix Audio that M-Stage is especially good with high impendace headphones. So please no more disinformation.


----------



## Chodi

3rdmortal said:


> M-Stage is not an aggressive at all. It is detailed and quite neutral. It works excellent with high impendance headphones (well, of course considering its price). And it is written on the web-site of Matrix Audio that M-Stage is especially good with high impendace headphones. So please no more disinformation.


 
 Agree completely. I think the M Stage does a remarkably good job with the HD800 (300ohm) as well as the T1 (600 ohm). I own both and I have used them both extensively with the M Stage. It is rare to find a solid state amp that does so well with high impedance headphones. Especially at this price.


----------



## Maxvla

Owning both the HD600 and M-Stage, I'd say it's a good but not optimal matchup (even with LT1364, which I prefer with HD800s). Try the Valhalla 2.


----------



## Chris J

conquerator2 said:


> Schiit Valhalla 2 should work better with the higher impedance HD600. Higher power output but might produce an even warmer sound.
> The Mstage would offer the bare minimum power required for the Hifimans, driving the HE-400 fine and the 500 just so so.
> Valhalla is made for high impedance headphones, Mstage will work well with most reasonably efficient 32 - 150 ohm headphones.




My M Stage easily drove my 600 Ohm Beyer DT880s.

It even drove my 2,000 Ohm Senn HD424 'phones!


----------



## willmax

Has any of you guys compared the Matrix M-Stage with Audio GD NFB11?
 Any impressions would be appreciated.
 Cheers


----------



## EinZweiDrei

how come my OPA627BP makes a loud popping sound when i plug in my K701 in my M Stage.
 my other OP amps dont do that.
 since it pops im afraid to play music through it thinking i might damage those k701 drivers.
 is there a problem with my OPA627BP like being a fake OP amp?
 i got my OPA627BP from this guy on ebay http://www.ebay.com/itm/170962971328?_trksid=p2060778.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


----------



## Chris J

einzweidrei said:


> how come my OPA627BP makes a loud popping sound when i plug in my K701 in my M Stage.
> 
> my other OP amps dont do that.
> 
> ...




You're probably hearing the ill effects of excessive DC offset.
For that price, it's probably a fake!


----------



## MarcadoStalker7

Anyone tried the Matrix M-Stage with a pair of HD-598's? I will notice a difference vs typical ipod unamped headphone out?
 I know it is a very easy to drive pair of hp's, but i heard more soundstage and refinement out of a integrated headphone amp of a Realtek integrated sound a time ago. And i think i need an amp, and this is the best i find for less than 300$.
  
 My source is an iPod touch 5G (which is very good but lacks power), and i will connect it with a 3.5 to RCA cable into the amp. I can do that, right? (The guy who made this review connected the Fuze like that, i think. And others connected other DAP's like the iPod classic this way too).
  
 Noob questions, i know. but thank you!


----------



## Chris J

marcadostalker7 said:


> Anyone tried the Matrix M-Stage with a pair of HD-598's? I will notice a difference vs typical ipod unamped headphone out?
> I know it is a very easy to drive pair of hp's, but i heard more soundstage and refinement out of a integrated headphone amp of a Realtek integrated sound a time ago. And i think i need an amp, and this is the best i find for less than 300$.
> 
> My source is an iPod touch 5G (which is very good but lacks power), and i will connect it with a 3.5 to RCA cable into the amp. I can do that, right? (The guy who made this review connected the Fuze like that, i think. And others connected other DAP's like the iPod classic this way too).
> ...




Does the 5G use that damned Lightning connector? :veryevil:

I have an older generation of iPod, I typically take a Line Out signal from the 30 pin connector, which bypasses the iPod's headphone jack. 

As a former M Stage owner I do think the M Stage is a very good amp, it does sound more refined and has a better sense of space than, for example, a FiiO E12 or E09K.


----------



## MarcadoStalker7

chris j said:


> Does the 5G use that damned Lightning connector? :veryevil:
> 
> I have an older generation of iPod, I typically take a Line Out signal from the 30 pin connector, which bypasses the iPod's headphone jack.
> 
> As a former M Stage owner I do think the M Stage is a very good amp, it does sound more refined and has a better sense of space than, for example, a FiiO E12 or E09K.



Its a very good first amp, indeed. 

To your question, no. I don't refer myself to use any adapter. I mean sending pure analog signal direct of the headphone out to the input of the M-Stage or another amp.
The iTouch 5G has the annoying lightning connector, but i don't want to connect a portable amp so i don't care.

See the photo of the first page of this review, the guy connected a Sansa Fuze to the M-Stage directly without any sort of adaptor, only a 3.5 to RCA cable.

I have my doubts about that. I see a lot of people here using iPods, YES, ONLY A ******** iPod! as source. (Music files + DAC, obviously). That sends direct analog signal to the amplifier and that is.
All those things confuses me a lot because people here buy DAC's and stuff like that and the few who uses other sources with built-in DAC's like iPods, Sanza's and those things and connect it to a desktop amp don't say anything about that!

I've read a lot of things about iPods as Hi-Fi sources and everyone on other page says good iPods like the Classic, Video and Touch are as good if not better than any DAC you see on Head-Fi. But, what happens? No one ******** ghost say any word about that. All people uses 10.000$ ultra audiophile DAC's and call iPods junk.

I just don't know what to think, that confuses me so much


----------



## Liu Junyuan

To bypass the amp in the iphone5 amp, you can buy a dock from the Apple website.


----------



## MarcadoStalker7

liu junyuan said:


> To bypass the amp in the iphone5 amp, you can buy a dock from the Apple website.



You don't need to do that if you want to connect it to a desktop amp.
Simply buy a 3.5 to RCA cable and connect it to the amp, done. Nothing more. If you want to bypass the DAC, then you need to use adaptors and those things.

Like i say before, nobody says nothing about connecting iPods/iPhone/iPad directly to a desktop amp this way, I don't know why... Too much audiophilia and fantasy perhaps? :rolleyes:


----------



## Liu Junyuan

If you do that, wouldnt you be double- amping? The point of the line-out dock (which was like 30 dollars) is to disable the iphone's amp, which cannot drive the headphones I own. When the device is docked, I can only use the volume on my O2 amp. If you double amp, you risk a degree of distortion. Whether this distortion is noticeable or not is debatable. However, if I am amping cans that need it, I would rather dispose of the iphone amp altogether and maximize output of the O2.

This is just my portable setup, and since the iphone 5's internal dac is fairly solid, I only bother with an external amp (the O2) and forego an external dac altogether. My desktop rig is a different story. 

So, no audiophile sorcery here. I think the dock is definitely worth it for me to bypass the internal amp and to rely solely on the external amp for my armchair setup.


----------



## MarcadoStalker7

liu junyuan said:


> If you do that, wouldnt you be double- amping? The point of the line-out dock (which was like 30 dollars) is to disable the iphone's amp, which cannot drive the headphones I own. When the device is docked, I can only use the volume on my O2 amp. If you double amp, you risk a degree of distortion. Whether this distortion is noticeable or not is debatable. However, if I am amping cans that need it, I would rather dispose of the iphone amp altogether and maximize output of the O2.
> 
> This is just my portable setup, and since the iphone 5's internal dac is fairly solid, I only bother with an external amp (the O2) and forego an external dac altogether. My desktop rig is a different story.
> 
> So, no audiophile sorcery here. I think the dock is definitely worth it for me to bypass the internal amp and to rely solely on the external amp for my armchair setup.


 
 Yes, it will be double-amping that way. I noticed that. Thank you


----------



## Liu Junyuan

No problem! Best of luck.


----------



## ArcticPete

Hi all. Got my M-Stage HPA-2 USB yesterday. What an improvement - over the headphone outs on my cd-player and iMac. One thing I'm not sure about though is whether my mac is actually using the dac on the M-Stage. Am I just supposed to believe that it does so?


----------



## Chris J

arcticpete said:


> Hi all. Got my M-Stage HPA-2 USB yesterday. What an improvement - over the headphone outs on my cd-player and iMac. One thing I'm not sure about though is whether my mac is actually using the dac on the M-Stage. Am I just supposed to believe that it does so?




If you have your Mac connected to the M Stage via USB, then yes, you are using the DAC in the M Stage.
The USB connection is a digital connection, not an analog connection.


----------



## ArcticPete

chris j said:


> If you have your Mac connected to the M Stage via USB, then yes, you are using the DAC in the M Stage.
> The USB connection is a digital connection, not an analog connection.



Cheers. The reason I was wondering was that on my Ubuntu machine I could choose between several modes. Digital or analog out on the m-stage.


----------



## Chris J

arcticpete said:


> Cheers. The reason I was wondering was that on my Ubuntu machine I could choose between several modes. Digital or analog out on the m-stage.




The M Stage has no digital output.
I like the fact that it has an analog input though, it gives you the option of upgrading your DAC and still using the M Stage as a headphone amp!
Very cool!


----------



## zanderwebb

Really having a hard time selling my unused M stage... If anyone would like to pick up this amazing amp, shoot me a pm!


----------



## Chris J

zanderwebb said:


> Really having a hard time selling my unused M stage... If anyone would like to pick up this amazing amp, shoot me a pm!




It ain't easy.
I sold mine for less than what I was hoping for.:eek:


----------



## zanderwebb

I dont see why its so hard? As this thread shows this is a pretty great amp that performs way over its cost? Ive had like 3 buyers but they all backed out last second


----------



## blueangel2323

I sold mine pretty quickly on canuck audio mart for pretty much what I paid for it (used). I only sold it because I got my D100 which has a very similar sounding amp section (with somewhat less power)


----------



## zanderwebb

Hey what do u know! After 4 weeks of trying to sell and the day i say its a tough sell,, I FOUND A BUYER


----------



## willmax

Can someone pls point me in the right direction where I can find one of those large volume knobs as I would like to upgrade from the standard one on my M-stage? Ideally something similar to what is used in the Lehmann Black Cube for example.
 My M-stage is the newer model with the new face plate FYI. Thanks


----------



## Chris J

zanderwebb said:


> Hey what do u know! After 4 weeks of trying to sell and the day i say its a tough sell,, I FOUND A BUYER




Congrats! 

BTW, I should be getting my Matrix Quattro amp soon!


----------



## Maxvla

willmax said:


> Can someone pls point me in the right direction where I can find one of those large volume knobs as I would like to upgrade from the standard one on my M-stage? Ideally something similar to what is used in the Lehmann Black Cube for example.
> My M-stage is the newer model with the new face plate FYI. Thanks


http://www.head-fi.org/t/475618/matrix-m-stage-amp-review-simple-cheap-and-excellent/3855#post_9328852

Find a new listing of the same part and you are good to go.


----------



## zanderwebb

chris j said:


> Congrats!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 ooh a balanced system )) nice.. and yep really happy with the sale  have my ideal setup for the he 400's now


----------



## willmax

maxvla said:


> http://www.head-fi.org/t/475618/matrix-m-stage-amp-review-simple-cheap-and-excellent/3855#post_9328852
> 
> Find a new listing of the same part and you are good to go.




Thank you that looks perfect apart from the fact that I am looking for a black one, maybe I can get a silver one and paint it black will check it out. Cheers


----------



## drews

willmax said:


> Can someone pls point me in the right direction where I can find one of those large volume knobs as I would like to upgrade from the standard one on my M-stage? Ideally something similar to what is used in the Lehmann Black Cube for example.
> My M-stage is the newer model with the new face plate FYI. Thanks


 
  
 This is the one you want:
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/180672233284
  
  
 Drew


----------



## willmax

drews said:


> This is the one you want:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Thank you that looks like it will fit the bill perfectly.
 Cheers


----------



## WhiskeyJacks

Can any one give me some good references or suggestions for op amps for the M-stage? I am looking on tam's audiio but also really do not know much about them and what are of the Opamps that would work with the M-stage? Please help me if you do not mind.


----------



## WhiskeyJacks

Also I recently have received the M-stage, and before that I received the Fournier HTA-2 which is discontinued but also received great recommendations from Project86. I Had bought before reading his review but it was spot on, and the M-stage I would have to agree is similar in his assessment.
  
 I will be honest I feel since using every other amp after and before the Fournier that nothing does it better for my preferences. This isn't to say there is not better amps that are more detailed, or have a better stage, or separation. There the M-stage is one of them and for being a solid state amp I happen to really like it, but the hybrid Fournier HTA-2( which main differences from the HTA-1 are that you can use iems and low impedance phones with much noise) the Fournier sounds more solid state with just a more life like presentation, lush and smooth mids and treble. It took a while for me to really like the M-stage(stock thinking about getting the bias mod), now from the beginning I could hear that the M-stage had a better sound stage and separation, along with details with  instrumentals which were so subtle before on any of the other amps, that I did not even hear them(could here some with the Fournier).
  
 Still the Fournier has it's own magic that just lures you in, so I refused to stop listening to the M-stage, needed to find out if I wanted to keep or if it was worth keeping since I have another amp that I currently Love. Well after some time, this being a new amp and not used by the head fier that traded with me, I listened through the hours of burn in if that is what it is. It could be me and my ears adjusting to a more solid state sound, very neutral slight( and I mean slight) warmth. I really started to enjoy the things I appreciated about the M-stage, the stage was great for instrumental soundtracks and classical setups. But things that were faster and more progressive like Mars volta, rush, Coheed's Fear Through the Eyes of Madness tracks all sounded fantastically detailed and yet not too analytical for my own taste. I still think I prefer the tubes and the hybrid amp especially with headphones I use currently, both really able to sing with tubes and or ss amps. The HD600s sound fantastic with the Fournier, and yet stayed strong even on the M-stage. The other I think may even sound better on the M-stage, which is my DT 880.  I then remembered I could use the M-stage as a preamp.... I kind of wish I could do the same for the fournier so that I can hear how it would sound with the M-stage in that order, and it does not help that I also use the Fostex HP which has a built in amp that is of average quality compared to the DAC that imo I prefer over the ODAC. So right now I am listening to the HD600s in this line up, Media Monkey (flac) ---Fostex DAC----Fostex amp as preamp----Matrix m-stage also as preamp-----Fournier HTA 2----HD600s. lol it is a pretty big line, but I do not know if it is just my imagination but I feel like there is less noise in between the songs with this set up.


----------



## Chris J

whiskeyjacks said:


> Can any one give me some good references or suggestions for op amps for the M-stage? I am looking on tam's audiio but also really do not know much about them and what are of the Opamps that would work with the M-stage? Please help me if you do not mind.


 
  
 LM4562NA


----------



## WhiskeyJacks

Do you think this op amp would sound nice with the hd600s? and you do not need a bias mod with this or anything just the one lm4562na ? Thanks for your suggestion.


----------



## Chris J

whiskeyjacks said:


> Do you think this op amp would sound nice with the hd600s? and you do not need a bias mod with this or anything just the one lm4562na ? Thanks for your suggestion.


 
  
 I suspect the neutral LM4562NA would go very well with neutral headphones like the HD600.
 I would not modify the LM4562NA.
  
 I tried a Class A modded OPA627, I thought it sounded too warm.


----------



## WhiskeyJacks

Yeah I figured I think a warm one would go well too with the HD600s, but that also depends on kind of sound you are looking for. I am interested in where would be a safe and more affordable place to buy the 4562na? because I found the bias mod and opa627 chips together for 30 at tams audio. I was just wondering since I never messed with op amps and am still learning. I think when the time comes I may get both and try them both out to see which i prefer.


----------



## WhiskeyJacks

Does anyone know the differences between these two mods
 http://tamaudio.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=39_46&product_id=82
  
 http://tamaudio.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=39_46&product_id=91
  
 Is one dual mono chips and the other a is a single dual opamp? Will they both work with M-stage in the same way of installation? Sorry for all the questions I have been searching and could not find my answer and wrote Tam's audio last night but probably will not reply until this week if he does


----------



## Chris J

whiskeyjacks said:


> Does anyone know the differences between these two mods
> http://tamaudio.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=39_46&product_id=82
> 
> http://tamaudio.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=39_46&product_id=91
> ...




No real difference, one is using "SMT" (Surface Mount Technology) Op Amps, the other is using "DIP" (Dual Inline Pin) Op Amps.
They should sound the same.
They both use two "mono" Op Amps.
OPA627AU has the second Op Amp on the back.

Tam Audio is a good source for the LM4562NA.
You can also buy them from Newark Electronics.

The OPA627 will sound slightly warmer than the LM4562NA.
Personally, I think the LM4562NA is the more neutral of all those Op Amps.


----------



## WhiskeyJacks

chris j said:


> No real difference, one is using "SMT" (Surface Mount Technology) Op Amps, the other is using "DIP" (Dual Inline Pin) Op Amps.
> They should sound the same.
> They both use two "mono" Op Amps.
> OPA627AU has the second Op Amp on the back.
> ...


 
 Okay that is good too know, and does the LM4562 need to have the bias mod, because I could not find and or see the op amp you were suggestion I am planning on getting a couple different op amps in the long run, but I am not sure if I would like a warmer sound chip or not because I do like tubes and the warmth of some. I jsut replaced the JJ ECC82 tubes with two 1957 RCA 12AU7 on the Fournier HTA-2, now the downfall with the HTA-2 is that the different tubes one does buy does not have as much of an impact as other hybrid. The difference is that the RCA is cleaner, better separation, and that is about it. I do not mind if that is all I achieved with this tube set. So I do not know if I am going to with the more neutral chip or one with some warmth. 
  
 EDIT: I found the chipset you were talking about at the very bottom, now all I need is one correct and to remove the stock chip by gently rolling it out and pull it off? then I just plug and play? Sorry first time doing this, and I will probably check the video done on youtube with changing the opamp with the ad797 on a bias mod I think, wonder how that sounds on the M-stage.


----------



## Chris J

whiskeyjacks said:


> Okay that is good too know, and does the LM4562 need to have the bias mod, because I could not find and or see the op amp you were suggestion I am planning on getting a couple different op amps in the long run, but I am not sure if I would like a warmer sound chip or not because I do like tubes and the warmth of some. I jsut replaced the JJ ECC82 tubes with two 1957 RCA 12AU7 on the Fournier HTA-2, now the downfall with the HTA-2 is that the different tubes one does buy does not have as much of an impact as other hybrid. The difference is that the RCA is cleaner, better separation, and that is about it. I do not mind if that is all I achieved with this tube set. So I do not know if I am going to with the more neutral chip or one with some warmth.
> 
> EDIT: I found the chipset you were talking about at the very bottom, now all I need is one correct and to remove the stock chip by gently rolling it out and pull it off? then I just plug and play? Sorry first time doing this, and I will probably check the video done on youtube with changing the opamp with the ad797 on a bias mod I think, wonder how that sounds on the M-stage.




I would use the LM4562 without any Class A biasing.
Yes, you take the Op Amp out by gently rocking the Op Amp out.
Best thing to do is watch the YouTube video before you try to take it out and put in the replacement.
It's easy to put the replacement in backwards......which will destroy it!


----------



## WhiskeyJacks

chris j said:


> I would use the LM4562 without any Class A biasing.
> Yes, you take the Op Amp out by gently rocking the Op Amp out.
> Best thing to do is watch the YouTube video before you try to take it out and put in the replacement.
> It's easy to put the replacement in backwards......which will destroy it!


 
 Thank you so much Chris for all the suggestions and help, truly cool of you man. I will let you know if I decide on it and when I actually get it in the m-stage and see  what I think.


----------



## ArcticPete

As stated a few pages ago I got my M-Stage mid-July. When I plugged it in yesterday it wasn't recognized on any computer I tried. Analog ins still work thankfully. I am writing back and forth with tamAudio and I hope I won't need to ship it back. He asked me to push the opamp firmly in place, as he'd encountered that before, but that didn't help. Anyone else have had this problem?


----------



## WhiskeyJacks

chris j said:


> I would use the LM4562 without any Class A biasing.
> Yes, you take the Op Amp out by gently rocking the Op Amp out.
> Best thing to do is watch the YouTube video before you try to take it out and put in the replacement.
> It's easy to put the replacement in backwards......which will destroy it!


 
 So, I just realized the LM4562 is only ten dollars with free shipping... not bad not bad. I am going to Purchase one soon, I really wanted to purchase one but with my girls car starter going just after replacing the tires, and then insurance trying not to cover all of my physical therapy for the blood clot i have been dealing with for 5 months.. .I take that back I willl not be getting the LM4562 for a long while. Which sucks but I cannot really do anything about it. I really want to hear it in the stage only because I was told it makes a difference. Well anyways thanks for helping me find the right op amp Chris.


----------



## WhiskeyJacks

Hm I found one on mouser, but it is not the same chip I think LM4562NA/NOPB that is what it is written as and the one I am looking for is unavailable there, this one being from TI


----------



## phandrew

How does the M stage perform as a preamp?


----------



## WhiskeyJacks

Pretty well actuallyi plugged into me actually . I used it with my fourniee hta2 hybrid. It mkes the sound cleaner and i never have to go past 9am


----------



## phandrew

I was thinking of buying this one below but is there anything I should know before buying it?
  
 http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Matrix-m-stage-Headphone-Amplifier-Black-Version-/261264192552?pt=US_Amplifier_Parts_Components&hash=item3cd48f3428


----------



## Chris J

phandrew said:


> I was thinking of buying this one below but is there anything I should know before buying it?
> 
> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Matrix-m-stage-Headphone-Amplifier-Black-Version-/261264192552?pt=US_Amplifier_Parts_Components&hash=item3cd48f3428




Looks fine.
This version has no USB input.
Other than that, looks good.


----------



## WhiskeyJacks

Dude I am not ordering from Tam's audio again, I have written a ton of enquiries about products then after an order wrote more and not one replied, then I had to wait 4 days to chip a single chip and it is coming from China not Chicago, I think that there should be a status saying this chip currently ships from China so a wait will be required. And a single answer for all my questions would of sufficed.


----------



## Chodi

whiskeyjacks said:


> Dude I am not ordering from Tam's audio again, I have written a ton of enquiries about products then after an order wrote more and not one replied, then I had to wait 4 days to chip a single chip and it is coming from China not Chicago, I think that there should be a status saying this chip currently ships from China so a wait will be required. And a single answer for all my questions would of sufficed.


 
 Seems odd, when I had occasion to email Tam with questions I always got prompt and detailed replies. Maybe there is a Chinese holiday or some family issue going on. He really got back to me very quickly with answers to all my questions.


----------



## WhiskeyJacks

chodi said:


> Seems odd, when I had occasion to email Tam with questions I always got prompt and detailed replies. Maybe there is a Chinese holiday or some family issue going on. He really got back to me very quickly with answers to all my questions.


 
 That is what I have read from a lot of people, so I thought I should be good with communication but I honestly do not think I can use the Holiday as an excuse because it has been a couple weeks. I really hope it makes it trhrough china air just in an envelope... I get concerned with the pins and them not being in a little box or something, I am hoping it comes quick and safely, I know it is only 10 dollars but for me 10 dollars is an awful lot for me. Anyways It is okay because put the 2227 in my Cmoy bb that had the NE5532 and it sounded good really decent separation detail, impact, and more musicality than the OPA2134 without being as dark sounding, that is the best way I can describe the opa2134 is dark and thick like syrup if that makes any sense. I ended up putting the NE5532 in the M-stage for now and I do like the sonic differences quite a bit, I have a ne5532 in other portable the Gemini Doctor's GemTune Ws1.2 bluebird, Which sounds a lot better than the price I got it for.
  
 I hope it works out at least.


----------



## Chris J

whiskeyjacks said:


> That is what I have read from a lot of people, so I thought I should be good with communication but I honestly do not think I can use the Holiday as an excuse because it has been a couple weeks. I really hope it makes it trhrough china air just in an envelope... I get concerned with the pins and them not being in a little box or something, I am hoping it comes quick and safely, I know it is only 10 dollars but for me 10 dollars is an awful lot for me. Anyways It is okay because put the 2227 in my Cmoy bb that had the NE5532 and it sounded good really decent separation detail, impact, and more musicality than the OPA2134 without being as dark sounding, that is the best way I can describe the opa2134 is dark and thick like syrup if that makes any sense. I ended up putting the NE5532 in the M-stage for now and I do like the sonic differences quite a bit, I have a ne5532 in other portable the Gemini Doctor's GemTune Ws1.2 bluebird, Which sounds a lot better than the price I got it for.
> 
> I hope it works out at least.




That's what I find:
The OPA2134 is a bit dark sounding.
Your description of the NE5534 is similar to my opinion of the LM4562.
I haven't heard the NE5534 in the Matrix so I can't compare it to the LM4562 in the Matrix.

When I ordered my Matrix Quattro amp from Tam Audio, it took 12 days to get to Canada, shipping was free so I have no complaints, free shipping usually means slow shipping!
I also had an LM4562 in the order, the packaging was good.


----------



## WhiskeyJacks

chris j said:


> That's what I find:
> The OPA2134 is a bit dark sounding.
> Your description of the NE5534 is similar to my opinion of the LM4562.
> I haven't heard the NE5534 in the Matrix so I can't compare it to the LM4562 in the Matrix.
> ...


 
 Yeah that is what I mean the NE5534 I have a habit of putting 32, anyways it sounds good for the most part may be lacking some details in some ways but honestly it is pretty hard to tell. I think the bass sounds nicer with the HD600, and I feel as though the tonality of that chip with the Matrix in combination with the Matrix sounds good. I am glad to know then thanks for letting me know the time it takes so I have a general idea at least. I am enjoying the OPA2227 in the Cmoy more than I thought I would I definitely like it more than the OPA2134, and it is more detailed in it's presentation than the NE5534 but that the 5534 has a bit more musicality than the other. It is a good trade off for when you want a particular sound from each.


----------



## WhiskeyJacks

chris j said:


> That's what I find:
> The OPA2134 is a bit dark sounding.
> Your description of the NE5534 is similar to my opinion of the LM4562.
> I haven't heard the NE5534 in the Matrix so I can't compare it to the LM4562 in the Matrix.
> ...


 
 So still waiting for the LM4562 to hit the states, probably will happen after this weekend or so, which is fine. I ended up receiving a LME49990 x2 soic to dip8 adapter. It sounds very nice, for initial impressions I have to say it has great sonic quality, kind of laid back and natural but capable of delivering both punch in bass, along with detail and musicality across the spectrum. The sound stage opens up from the NE5532, and the OPA2134 is darker than both of these. I think the LME49990 chips have more detail and are my preferred chip so far in comparison of OPA 2134, 2227, NE5532. The only other chip that has not been tested against it is the LM4562 which I will be getting in a couple weeks probably from what I heard about shipping time was shipped out. I am looking forward to see the differences and similarities between the two. I also am looking forward to getting some more time with the LME49990s


----------



## WhiskeyJacks

chris j said:


> That's what I find:
> The OPA2134 is a bit dark sounding.
> Your description of the NE5534 is similar to my opinion of the LM4562.
> I haven't heard the NE5534 in the Matrix so I can't compare it to the LM4562 in the Matrix.
> ...


 
 The LM4562 has arrived in the States, New york and supposedly was processed through IPS facility and is now in Flushing NY. So hopefully the post will get it here by next week sometime being that New York is a state away, but we will see USPS can take a bit with international. I will be comparing the two sonic signatures of the LME49990 x2 and the Dual op amp LM4562 and seeing if I am come to the same conclusion as you as far as sound and preference being that we both felt the OPA2134 too dark for our tastes.


----------



## willmax

maxvla said:


> http://www.head-fi.org/t/475618/matrix-m-stage-amp-review-simple-cheap-and-excellent/3855#post_9328852
> 
> Find a new listing of the same part and you are good to go.


 


  


drews said:


> This is the one you want:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/180672233284
> 
> ...


 

 Thank you guys for pointing me in the right direction, I finally got my new volume knob and it looks and feels pretty awesome.
 Cheers


----------



## WhiskeyJacks

So I got my LME 4562 from Tam's audio, and it was packaged well for a chip, only problem is that the opamp was taped thoroughly around and the removing the tape with an exacto knife when pull the top layer off the Opamp came with it and there was some bent pins... I said well hopefully they do not break but unfortunately have to bend them back was a delicate process and I did the best that I could. First tried it out in the Cmoy bb and I can say I definitely like this chip off the rip. I prefered it to the opa2227 and everything else tried in the Cmoy. Now I just plugged the LME4562 into the Matrix, and the LM49990 x2 in the cmoy,This is honestly some the better and or best chips i have used. They sound great in both Cmoy bb, and Matrix M-stage. Honestly. I do think the LME4562 is more forward and bit in your face in the matrix more so, and the maybe in good way or bad way at times. LM49990 is a more laid back and detailed chip and has good sound stage and smooth top end. They both sound great and are very detailed, both have nice sound stages LM49990 maybe a bit wider and more laid back but the LME4562 is fantastically intimate when listening to music from some singers like Adele. Both are fantastic options, and cheaper ones to the OPA627 route. Just make sure if you go with the LM49990 route you get the two mono chips on an a SOIC to dip8 adapter.
  
 EDIT: should of posted this already, thanks Chris J once again on solid advice. and I can honestly say I am not sure which I prefer between the two, but I am keeping the LM4562 in there for now, if that says anything.


----------



## Chris J

whiskeyjacks said:


> So I got my LME 4562 from Tam's audio, and it was packaged well for a chip, only problem is that the opamp was taped thoroughly around and the removing the tape with an exacto knife when pull the top layer off the Opamp came with it and there was some bent pins... I said well hopefully they do not break but unfortunately have to bend them back was a delicate process and I did the best that I could. First tried it out in the Cmoy bb and I can say I definitely like this chip off the rip. I prefered it to the opa2227 and everything else tried in the Cmoy. Now I just plugged the LME4562 into the Matrix, and the LM49990 x2 in the cmoy,This is honestly some the better and or best chips i have used. They sound great in both Cmoy bb, and Matrix M-stage. Honestly. I do think the LME4562 is more forward and bit in your face in the matrix more so, and the maybe in good way or bad way at times. LM49990 is a more laid back and detailed chip and has good sound stage and smooth top end. They both sound great and are very detailed, both have nice sound stages LM49990 maybe a bit wider and more laid back but the LME4562 is fantastically intimate when listening to music from some singers like Adele. Both are fantastic options, and cheaper ones to the OPA627 route. Just make sure if you go with the LM49990 route you get the two mono chips on an a SOIC to dip8 adapter.
> 
> EDIT: should of posted this already, thanks Chris J once again on solid advice. and I can honestly say I am not sure which I prefer between the two, but I am keeping the LM4562 in there for now, if that says anything.




Hey no problem!
You are making me lust after an LM49990!
I have an LM4562 that I plan on installing in my Matrix Quattro amp when I get a rainy afternoon.
C.


----------



## sandab

What's different about the Tam op-amps?  Are they different from the plain old TI ones?  http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en/integrated-circuits-ics/linear-amplifiers-instrumentation-op-amps-buffer-amps/2556125?k=lm4562na


----------



## Chodi

sandab said:


> What's different about the Tam op-amps?  Are they different from the plain old TI ones?  http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en/integrated-circuits-ics/linear-amplifiers-instrumentation-op-amps-buffer-amps/2556125?k=lm4562na


 
 I ordered one of their op627 class A mods with the original M Stage. What I got looked ok but sounded terrible. I never went to the trouble of ordering the same opamps from another source but I always suspected the ones I got from Tam. I wound up using a very different solution. Their equipment is a wonderful value but I would not order opamps from them again.


----------



## Mad Max

whiskeyjacks said:


> So I got my LME 4562 from Tam's audio, and it was packaged well for a chip, only problem is that the opamp was taped thoroughly around and the removing the tape with an exacto knife when pull the top layer off the Opamp came with it and there was some bent pins... I said well hopefully they do not break but unfortunately have to bend them back was a delicate process and I did the best that I could. First tried it out in the Cmoy bb and I can say I definitely like this chip off the rip. I prefered it to the opa2227 and everything else tried in the Cmoy. Now I just plugged the LME4562 into the Matrix, and the LM49990 x2 in the cmoy,This is honestly some the better and or best chips i have used. They sound great in both Cmoy bb, and Matrix M-stage. Honestly. I do think the LME4562 is more forward and bit in your face in the matrix more so, and the maybe in good way or bad way at times. LM49990 is a more laid back and detailed chip and has good sound stage and smooth top end. They both sound great and are very detailed, both have nice sound stages LM49990 maybe a bit wider and more laid back but the LME4562 is fantastically intimate when listening to music from some singers like Adele. Both are fantastic options, and cheaper ones to the OPA627 route. Just make sure if you go with the LM49990 route you get the two mono chips on an a SOIC to dip8 adapter.
> 
> EDIT: should of posted this already, thanks Chris J once again on solid advice. and I can honestly say I am not sure which I prefer between the two, but I am keeping the LM4562 in there for now, if that says anything.


 
  
 LM4562 rocks with a 0.1uF ceramic C0G/NP0 cap across its power pins.  Solder one cap end to pin 4, then the other to pin 8, et voila!
  
 Even better is to add a matched pair of caps and ground them just like what Audio-gd opamps have.  It would look like what one guy demonstrated in the Little Dot I+ with LME49720 (same chip as LM4562).  He used what look like video film caps, which I would never recommend for an audio opamp, but a pair of ceramic 0.1uF capacitors will do.  However, you have to take into account that circuit components tend to vary from their stated values, so you would have to buy a handful of caps, then find two matching ones using a multimeter.  If the caps are mismatched, then the oapmp will heat up enough to grill a steak.
  
 LME49990's datasheet recommends tantalum and ceramic caps.
  
 I just received some old Soviet K42-Y2 PIO film capacitors, now I'll have fun trying these out.  They're said to be one of the best film caps for these kinds of modifications.  I am extremely fond of Vishay MKP1837 and BFC416 polypropylene capacitors as it is for this stuff.
  
 Although Class A biasing can also improve the sound with some chips, modern opamps are already running Class A internally anyway, so additional caps on the power pins is much more effective.


----------



## sandab

mad max said:


> LM4562 rocks with a 0.1uF ceramic C0G/NP0 cap across its power pins.  Solder one cap end to pin 4, then the other to pin 8, et voila!
> 
> Even better is to add a matched pair of caps and ground them just like what Audio-gd opamps have.


 
 My newly arrived M-Stage HPA-2 has been sitting since yesterday looping white noise through a pair of K702s.  The K702's need the burn-in, so it's good. 
  
 Ordered replacement knobs from China; they'll take a couple of weeks to get here.  Got a sandblasted silver and a black, to see which I like better.  At < $5 ea it's hard to go wrong...
  
 Received a package from Digi-Key today with two LM4562NA's in a 2-inch tube.  I didn't check the datasheet and for some reason fubared it and thought they're monos, but they're of course a dual drop-in replacement.  I almost feel bad ordering two $3 opamps from digikey, since someone had to stick them in a tube, put the tube in a static ziploc bag, package and box it, and hand it off to USPS.  (Which charged, I think $2.35 in postage.) Also ordered the class A biased OPA627 carrier board from Tam, and an LT1364CN on eBay.  Once burnt in it's time for an evening of beer and opamps...
  
 I'm surprised something this low bandwidth would produce power and ground noise enough to be worth decoupling...  It must really be swinging!


----------



## blueangel2323

willmax said:


> Thank you guys for pointing me in the right direction, I finally got my new volume knob and it looks and feels pretty awesome.
> Cheers



Is that the Yulong D200? The volume knob looks way better than the one on my D100-II


----------



## Mad Max

sandab said:


> My newly arrived M-Stage HPA-2 has been sitting since yesterday looping white noise through a pair of K702s.  The K702's need the burn-in, so it's good.
> 
> Ordered replacement knobs from China; they'll take a couple of weeks to get here.  Got a sandblasted silver and a black, to see which I like better.  At < $5 ea it's hard to go wrong...
> 
> ...


 
  
 55MHz LM4562 is not low bandwidth, lol, and especially not LT1364, OPA2134 is low bandwidth.  I didn't know that postage from Digikey could go so low again, thanks!


----------



## sandab

Swapped out the stock for an LM4562 and left it in for a week, then switched back - and I can't tell any difference.   Then tried the LT1364 - same!
  
 The Tam Audio dual class A biased OPA627 on the other hand sounds _very_ different.  Texture and dynamics are significantly improved.  It's still somewhat (but not badly) prone to sibilance.  I'd guess a distortion product around 3-4kHz or so?  I'm wondering if perhaps it this could be fixed by decoupling the two opamps.  Has anyone done this?  Would you decouple +Vs/-Vs, or +Vs to a 0V rail?  Any parts recommendation?


----------



## Chodi

sandab said:


> Swapped out the stock for an LM4562 and left it in for a week, then switched back - and I can't tell any difference.   Then tried the LT1364 - same!
> 
> The Tam Audio dual class A biased OPA627 on the other hand sounds _very_ different.  Texture and dynamics are significantly improved.  It's still somewhat (but not badly) prone to sibilance.  I'd guess a distortion product around 3-4kHz or so?  I'm wondering if perhaps it this could be fixed by decoupling the two opamps.  Has anyone done this?  Would you decouple +Vs/-Vs, or +Vs to a 0V rail?  Any parts recommendation?


 
 This just goes to prove that we all hear differently and have different listening preferences. I had an M Stage from Tam and I had ordered the op627 class "A" from him just because of all the chatter. I could not listen to his class "A" mod for thirty minutes before I took it out of the system and tossed it. I thought it was terrible. Eventually I found an op amp combo for my M Stage that I liked a lot but the op627 was dark and overly warm sounding to me. I have since replaced my M Stage but I still think it was an excellent value and great sounding with my HD800's.


----------



## sandab

I should add this is with the LCD-3 headphones, which are laid back and benefit from a little bit of powerful texture and attack.  The HD650s sound very hard and fatiguing with it and I'd probably prefer any of the other op-amps with those headphones.


----------



## Chris J

chodi said:


> This just goes to prove that we all hear differently and have different listening preferences. I had an M Stage from Tam and I had ordered the op627 class "A" from him just because of all the chatter. I could not listen to his class "A" mod for thirty minutes before I took it out of the system and tossed it. I thought it was terrible. Eventually I found an op amp combo for my M Stage that I liked a lot but the op627 was dark and overly warm sounding to me. I have since replaced my M Stage but I still think it was an excellent value and great sounding with my HD800's.




I didn't like the Class A OP627 either, too warm and fuzzy.


----------



## rajeevrn

Thanks for the review


----------



## rajeevrn

I am planning to get the Matrix M-Stage HPA 2 to pair it with my Grado PS500.How well do you think the combo would work?


----------



## Mad Max

Grados all pair well with the M-Stage, although there's no feedback in the thread regarding PS500, but going from what I've read about the 500, perhaps an amp with better treble would make you happier.


----------



## rajeevrn

mad max said:


> Grados all pair well with the M-Stage, although there's no feedback in the thread regarding PS500, but going from what I've read about the 500, perhaps an amp with better treble would make you happier.


 
 Well I am going for the Matrix M Stage HPA 02 as per your suggestion. All other alternatives are pretty costly.


----------



## energyd

Question: Should I be able to output to a pair of active speakers(Focal XS Book) using the M-Stage's RCA output? Is that considered to be a double amplified setup? I heard it's dangerous to do so since that will damage my speakers. Really need your input here!


----------



## Mad Max

Active speakers like KRK Rokits are the right choice, alternatively passive speakers hooked up to a power amp (no preamp), and the M-Stage can be their preamp, but wireless speakers?  Nothing bad will happen, especially when you will be plugging the M-Stage into the receiver/transmitter and not the speakers themselves.  However, those Focals are probably made to take line-outs, so you may or may not end up with a lot of volume range to play with before the speakers start to distort.  No, that won't damage them, your music will just sound bad in the event of distortion, that's all.


----------



## energyd

Thanks for your help! 
  
 But I believe the M-Stage has a "line-out" which is exactly what the focals require? Why the KRK Rokits are fine here while the Focals are not?


----------



## Mad Max

I just explained what you need to be wary of.  The M-Stage has a preamp out, its volume varies with the volume control.  A line-out has a fixed, very loud volume.  Some equipment may sometimes label preamp outputs as "line-outs".  It can get confusing that way.


----------



## elwappo99

energyd said:


> Thanks for your help!
> 
> But I believe the M-Stage has a "line-out" which is exactly what the focals require? Why the KRK Rokits are fine here while the Focals are not?


 
  
 Yup you'll be totally fine. I run a similar set-up and basically use the M-stage as a preamp. I'd never seen those speakers before. Certainly sleek and modern looking!


----------



## energyd

Thanks, so I will make sure to not turn the volumn nob to its max or min position


----------



## energyd

Thanks for the reply! Yup, the speaker is good looking and sound quality is better than any multimedia speaker I've had before!


----------



## rajeevrn

Tried the Matrix MStage HPA 02 headphone amp+dac with my Grado PS500. I dont suggest this pairing. The midrange Grado magic is lost. There is nothing about the midrange that seems appealing anymore. Or am I doing something wrong or is the midrange compressed as it is for Matrix M Stage HPA 02?
  
 Edit: It seems it was a problem with the cabling on my Grados. I have sent it for repair will update this post once I receive them. There doesnt seem to be a problem with the Matrix M Stage HPA 02.


----------



## Ndug15

how do people feel about this amp combined with the hd650s?
  
 probably been asked before but hey =)
  
 also, what are some comparable amps to this guy...?


----------



## Chodi

ndug15 said:


> how do people feel about this amp combined with the hd650s?
> 
> probably been asked before but hey =)
> 
> also, what are some comparable amps to this guy...?


 

 Gustard H10   http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=Gustard+H10&_sacat=0


----------



## freddr

I have HD800 and it seems M-Stage HPA-2 is a match. But i understand that the DAC isn´t that great and my question is if i get an improvement if i pair it with Modi 2 UBER. I also wonder if anyone here have compared Magni 2 Uber vs M-Stage HPA-2 with HD800?
  
 Thanks!


----------



## ShrikeT

Does the M-Stage pair well with any electrostatics? It's output seems on the lowend of what you'd need for a high end electrostatic, but are there options that it would make sense with? I'm still enjoying my Q701s with it immensely, but if I do eventually upgrade, it's electrostatic or bust.


----------



## Mad Max

Electrocstats get electrostatic amplifiers.  M-Stage is for orthodynamics and regular dynamics only.


----------



## Chris J

shriket said:


> Does the M-Stage pair well with any electrostatics? It's output seems on the lowend of what you'd need for a high end electrostatic, but are there options that it would make sense with? I'm still enjoying my Q701s with it immensely, but if I do eventually upgrade, it's electrostatic or bust.


 
  
 I used to have a Matrix M Stage.
 I still have a pair of Q701.
  
 I also have the Stax SRS-2170 system.
 There is no contest, the Stax beats the Q and Matrix hands down.
  
 The Stax is a cleaner, more natural, purer sounding headphone system.
 Cleaner, less grainy treble, flatter frequency response, a more realistic, less mechanical sound..


----------



## MoatsArt

Chodi

You used the M-Stage to drive your T1s before the Taurus came along, didn't you?

Which opamp did you use? What impact did it have on the sound?

My musical tastes are similar to yours (although perhaps a bit broader) and I will be re-purchasing the T1s when I have saved, so I would value your input.


----------



## Darius94523

I have a several year-old M-stage that buzzes after it heats up.  Anyone have any ideas on this?  (Tried adjusting the grounding screw on the bottom).  It's especially noticeable with low impedance headphones, not really noticeable with HD600s.


----------



## Andreeas1978

Mine buzzes with every low impedance headphones from day one. I cannot go over 25% volume. With HD800 there is no buzz, 100% volume. I think that's normal, I think I read it somewhere also.


----------



## Andreeas1978

Forgot to mention, the buzz is constant in time, heating up does nothing...


----------



## Dzilio

Which one would be your choice: new m-stage or used musical fidelity v8p?


----------



## lakiozoon

Can matrix m-stage be used as a gramophone pre-amp?
_Gramophone > matrix m-stage (line out) > active monitors._


----------



## Mad Max

If the Gramophone has a built-in phono stage, then you can just hook up the M-Stage directly to it, if not, you need the phono stage first and then hook up the M-Stage to the stage before feeding the M-Stage's output to your active monitors.
This thread discusses the stuff.


----------



## lakiozoon

I plan to use Rega RP1 gramophone.
 I was kinda hoping for a yes / no answer
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
  
 Now i guess it's a no?


----------



## Chris J

lakiozoon said:


> I plan to use Rega RP1 gramophone.
> I was kinda hoping for a yes / no answer:atsmile:
> 
> Now i guess it's a no?




The Matrix M Stage headphone amplifier will NOT take grammophones straight in.
You will need a phone pre-amp.


----------



## lakiozoon

Thanks!


----------



## Headphonetopia

How does the Matrix M-Stage sound with the Sennheiser HD800?


----------



## Chodi

headphonetopia said:


> How does the Matrix M-Stage sound with the Sennheiser HD800?


 
 I've used the M Stage with the HD800 and it is surprisingly good for a budget system. I think the HD800 happens to be a very good match with the M Stage but hardly end game. You might also want to consider the Gustard H10 as they are both good budget solutions.


----------



## lakiozoon

I tried but I couldn't tell the difference between matrix m stage and my friends ~$5000 custom tube amp (someone more experienced probably could).
 After that I stopped looking and listening to amps and I focused on music.


----------



## Chris J

lakiozoon said:


> I tried but I couldn't tell the difference between matrix m stage and my friends ~$5000 custom tube amp (someone more experienced probably could).
> After that I stopped looking and listening to amps and I focused on music.




And there's nothing wrong with that!
I drink to you, sir! 

The ugly truth is.....
I used to have a fairly expensive vacuum tube pre-amp.
One sad day I compared it to a few cheaper (and more modern) pre-amps; Solid State and Solid State/Vacuum Tube hybrids.
Guess what?
Even the cheapest one was obviously superior!


----------



## Headphonetopia

My Matrix M-Stage HPA2 USB has finally arrived.But they send me the wrong power cord (240v)
 I live in Vancouver so is it safe to just simply plug it in and use it?
  
 Voltage:110v-120v
 Vancouver British Columbia


----------



## Chris J

headphonetopia said:


> My Matrix M-Stage HPA2 USB has finally arrived.But they send me the wrong power cord (240v)
> I live in Vancouver so is it safe to just simply plug it in and use it?
> 
> Voltage:110v-120v
> Vancouver British Columbia




NO!
The amp must be set to 120 Vac!
You will not harm an amp set for 240 vac if you plug in into a 120 Vac outlet, OTOH, the amp will not work. I'm in Canada too, BTW.

I have a Matrix Quattro headphone amp. It was shipped 240 Vac, I had to move a jumper on the back of the amp next to the AC input to use it.


----------



## Headphonetopia

got the amp to turn on but nothing shows up when i plugged the usb into the laptop.  i can't even download the driver


----------



## keanex

Hey guys, Matrix is releasing the third iteration of the M-Stage as seen here!


----------



## adgaps

Currently using K701 + M-stage HPA-1 with LM4562NA opamp
  
 I didn't really expect to get some 'wow' factor from this amp the first time I listened to it. Well it certainly doesn't make me go "OMG DELICIOUS SOUND BEST AMP EVAR", but rather, in my first few songs I was like "uhm.. okay. it's good." No overly emotional eargasm or something like that.
  
 But the more I listen to the K701 with the HPA-1, the more I appreciate its kinda neutral* and very detailed presentation.I don't know how exactly to describe it, but it's certainly one of the best sound I've heard with my AKG headphones. And I've tried quite a few amps with the K701 that really made it sing.
  
 *I dunno if it's just me, but I find the midrange to be just a bit forward. It's actually the first thing I noticed with the amp's sound. Overall it's still a lot more neutral than, say, an O2, which I find to slightly add some weight on the low end, making the K701 sound less thin. Heck I actually think O2 made K701's mids a bit thicker than with the HPA-1.


----------



## Inamayo

Guys I was wondering if matrixelectronics.net was a legit site, or at least if someone already bought from there and everything went fine/original ecc,.


----------



## adgaps

Most probably it isn't legit.
 Not a lot of product info, Contact detail is just an email address.
 Any way I look it seems bogus.


----------



## keanex

Finished my review of the HPA-3U, check it out! http://www.head-fi.org/t/770610/introducing-the-matrix-m-stage-hpa-3u-and-hpa-3b-review-to-follow#post_11666157


----------



## Inamayo

adgaps said:


> Most probably it isn't legit.
> Not a lot of product info, Contact detail is just an email address.
> Any way I look it seems bogus.


 
 Received the package 2 days ago from china, I can confirm the AMP is legit even if they're not an official reseller also the price is really cheap, they didn't even changed the value price from euro /dollar (it's like the old value 1 eur = 1,30 $)
 So tl dr;
 The stuff they give you is legit and the price is really cheap, but I'm not sure how they achieve that.


----------



## Mad Max

inamayo said:


> Received the package 2 days ago from china, I can confirm the AMP is legit even if they're not an official reseller also the price is really cheap, they didn't even changed the value price from euro /dollar (it's like the old value 1 eur = 1,30 $)
> So tl dr;
> The stuff they give you is legit and the price is really cheap, but I'm not sure how they achieve that.


 
  
 You can always try emailing info@matrix-digi.com to see find out what their connection to matrixelectronics.net is.


----------



## pr1me

My M-Stage started an annoying buzz noise (high gain).
It happen only when the RCA are plugged in.
Pressing the case sometimes make it stop, then it comes back.
I did loosen the screws on the back and it stopped for a while, then it comes back.
Anyone experienced that ? is there any fix for it ?


----------



## bracko

pr1me said:


> My M-Stage started an annoying buzz noise (high gain).
> It happen only when the RCA are plugged in.
> Pressing the case sometimes make it stop, then it comes back.
> I did loosen the screws on the back and it stopped for a while, then it comes back.
> Anyone experienced that ? is there any fix for it ?


 
 Does that happen no matter what source is connected? Is it same on both inputs?


----------



## pr1me

same on both input





bracko said:


> Does that happen no matter what source is connected? Is it same on both inputs?




It's the same on both input.
The source are Prodigy HD2 Burson, X-Fi titanium and Maximus VII Formula.
It happen on all of them.

Now instead of having the amp flat, i put it on its side.
The buzzing is gone for now (unless i crank the amp at max volume)

I don't know how long until it comes back


----------



## Andreeas1978

Hi, mine was buzzing because of the volume knob. On some levels the knob was touching the case and produced a slight buzz like a bad ground. I thought I had a bad potentiometer but when I changed the knob for esthetic purposes only I found the problem. Check if parts are touching, especially the case/body and something. Check it also with the knob removed. The fact that it changes with position might be a clue.. Try it also with the case removed but DON'T TOUCH ANYTHING, you know better! I don't think it's a big problem, like in my case, I was going crazy and wanted to return it. 

Does anyone tried the line out with active monitors like KRK 10-3? Is this a good idea? Thanks


----------



## SearchOfSub

how is mstage as preamp - does it sound good?


----------



## JamesBr

searchofsub said:


> how is mstage as preamp - does it sound good?


 
 Good is realllllly subjective here ...


----------



## DaemonSire

pr1me said:


> same on both input
> It's the same on both input.
> The source are Prodigy HD2 Burson, X-Fi titanium and Maximus VII Formula.
> It happen on all of them.
> ...


 
 When you say you loosen the screws on the back, which ones do you mean?  The ones to the case itself?
  
 What is probably going on is a buzz from the toroidal transformer.  On the very bottom of the M-Stage, there is a single screw.  Loosen that a little and then tighten it back up.


----------



## Mad Max

daemonsire said:


> When you say you loosen the screws on the back, which ones do you mean?  The ones to the case itself?
> 
> What is probably going on is a buzz from the toroidal transformer.  On the very bottom of the M-Stage, there is a single screw.  Loosen that a little and then tighten it back up.


 
  
 Five, actually, four hidden by the rubber feet.  The fifth one is the transformer's hex screw that you're talking about, to clarify.


----------



## xb4iris

Quick question to all the fans of this amplifier. Eyeing the Matrix M Headphone Amp, at least the earlier version, as an amplifier, as it is in my current price range and currently on special on Matrix Electronics website. Check below:
   
http://www.matrixelectronics.net/matrix-m-stage-headphone-amplifier-amp-black-color-p-198.html
  
 Quick questions for you all.
  
 1) Is this definitely the manufacturers website, as the newer versions of this amplifier aren't listed, and are these amplifiers decent, as the ratings on head-fi seem to suggest so?
  
 2) Can the ASUS Xonar Essence Sound Card be used as a pre-amp/dac combo with this amplifier?

  
 Any help would be great. Thanks for any advice.


----------



## Mad Max

1.) It's the manufacturer's online shop or something.
 2.) Several people are doing that, yes.


----------



## xb4iris

mad max said:


> 1.) It's the manufacturer's online shop or something.
> 2.) Several people are doing that, yes.


 
 Thanks Mad Max, you remind of some legendary Movie or something, can't quite put my finger on it.
  
 I don't think its the manufacturers site or store. Maybe an re-seller or something. Anyone buy something from this site before?


----------



## UNOE

How will this amp do with momentum and IEM? Also is there a difference between this amp with dac or without dac? Why is it same price to have it with dac ? Does that mean the one with out dac has improvements to amp section?


----------



## Chris J

unoe said:


> How will this amp do with momentum and IEM? Also is there a difference between this amp with dac or without dac? Why is it same price to have it with dac ? Does that mean the one with out dac has improvements to amp section?




I find it to be a little bit too hisssssy for my Shure IEMs.


----------



## Ultrainferno

I have just published Dave's review of the "new" HPA-3U on the site. I only had the pleasure to listen to the original M-Stage myself, too bad they aren't this present in Europe


----------



## freak

Do you think this seller is credible? I wonder if included OPA627  is legit?
Matrix "m-stage" Headphone Amplifier with OPA627AP Class A Biasing Mod
  
 Or maybe it would be more reasonable to buy cheaper version and change the opamp on my own? Will that work?
Matrix "m-stage" Headphone Amplifier LM4562NA
  
  
 Is there anything better in this price range (150-200 USD) than Matrix M-STAGE?


----------



## lakiozoon

Seems like a pretty good deal


----------



## bracko

Today I installed biasing mod with OPA627AP. The sound opened up really nicely. Both my HE-500 and T90 sound fantastic through my M-Stage. The old M-Stage is not a novelty but it is a super nice amp in the price range up to $500.


----------



## goldiee36

Hi All,
  
    I am wondering what is the differences between these 2 products:
http://www.matrixelectronics.net/matrix-m-stage-c-67.html
 and
http://www.matrixelectronics.net/matrix-m-stage-usb-24bit-96khz-class-a-headphone-amplifier-p-199.html
  
 Is it only the extra USB input instead of one of the analog inputs, or are there other differences like what is mentioned at the first product:
 " New 2012 version with upgraded power transformer and redesigned circuit"
  
 The m stage is showed as 2012 v2.1 version and the usb m stage as 2011, does somebody know explain why?
  
  
 Thanks a lot! 
  
 Edit: I've just realized that the second one have a cheap DAC, so I'll go for the first one.


----------



## goldiee36

double post..


----------



## Chris J

goldiee36 said:


> Hi All,
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Looks like you have already figured out that the difference is one has a DAC, the other doesn't.
They both have the same headphone amp.


----------



## EinZweiDrei

what gain setting do you hd650 and hd600 owners use for those cans.


----------



## bracko

einzweidrei said:


> what gain setting do you hd650 and hd600 owners use for those cans.


 
 I use 10 dB with my HD650. Even 0 dB works fine but I use 10 dB because of my HE-500.


----------



## lakiozoon

I also use 10 db, and mostly listen at about 12 o'clock (with digital input at 100%).


----------



## Dave Popovich

I am the proud owner of the fabulous Matrix M-Stage headphone amp. Immediately, out of the box, I loved this headphone amp. I am also a Radio Broadcast Engineer. I maintain radio stations, and have been, for a number of decades now. Radio stations are loaded with audio equipment. I have been listening to, and educating myself, on audio, for over 50 years. I also enjoy audio at home too, where I am better able to critically listen. My current favorite headphones are the SONY model 7506. I'm sure you have seen these everywhere. I have tried many sets of headphones over the years, but I seem to always come back to these, as I feel that they are extremely flat sounding, but at the same time, extremely revealing.
  
 Purchasing the Matrix M-Stage has made my headphone listening take on a whole new experience. I thought this was the ultimate I've ever heard in headphone listening...until, I replaced the M-Stage's stock OPA 2134 op-amp chip, with a Burson Audio V5 SS (Supreme Sound) op-amp chip. Whoa! Immediately out of the box, I heard a difference in sound with this V5 chip. But, was the sound an improvement over the stock chip? I really had to study the sound of this chip, because it was was so dramatically different than the OPA 2134. It only took a few day days before I realized that the V5 SS chip was simply amazing, to the point, I probably couldn't live without it.
  
 One of the most impressive aspects of the V5 is the improvement it makes in S/N ratio. Now S/N ratio is something I definitely know about. I strive for, not only in my home audio system, but also in the radio station studios I maintain, for the lowest noise floor possible. The Burson Audio V5 SS op-amp delivers an amazingly quiet noise floor. Music simply rises out of a blacker than black background. The bass response of this chip is to die for, and the high frequencies are unbelievable. I couldn't believe the texture I was hearing from violins. If you have an M-Stage, do your ears a favor, and give this op-amp a try. You won't regret it, as it is worth every cent. Changing out the op-amp is simple. This review wouldn't be complete unless I mentioned how distortion free the Burson Audio chip sounds, and after a while of listening, how my headphones simply seemed to melt away. I'm not kidding. I can't believe how much more pleasing to my ears the Burson Audio V5 SS op-amp chip sounds over the stock OPA 2134 chip. Simply unbelievable.


----------



## EinZweiDrei

is it worth upgrading from the m stage + hrt ms2 combo to the grace design m9xx?


----------



## iron_gr

Hi,
  
 I bought the "Matrix m-stage Headphone Amplifier 2012 v.1" with the "Burr Brown OPA627AP Class A Biasing Mod" on 2013. 

 I want to buy a power amplifier and I have a question about the gain options. Are they affecting the line-out?

 Do I also need to "match" the matrix m-stage with the power amplifier in terms of the output/input impedance?
  
 I did a quick search before posting but I couldn't find something.
  
 Thanks.


----------



## Mad Max

Impedance matching is only necessary between the speakers and power amp.  The gain settings do affect the "line-out" on the M-Stage's rear.


----------



## EinZweiDrei

lol hd650 sounds way too heavy and thick on the m stage. i say hd600 and k701 are better matches.
 maybe im just not use to it this type of sound.
 edit- nvmd forget what i said. depends on the recording.
 them string instruments. strings i say. anything with a sting and is drawn with a bow sound so good on the hd650


----------



## Dave Popovich

I've been meaning to post some pictures of the Matrix M-Stage, with and without the Burson Audio V5-OPA-D op-amp chip. For those of you that have the M-Stage, the chip is very easily installed. BTW, back to the sound of this chip - there is so much more air around each instrument with the V5 chip. You just have to try one! 
  
http://s1318.photobucket.com
  
 I'm new with the inserting pictures on this website, so I hope this works. I have a total of 5 Matrix M-Stages (yes, I love them that much). Pictured is one in one of the radio station's production studios. Since headphones are plugged, and unplugged, on a daily basis (numerous times), you'll see a simple headphone plug extender box plugged into the M-Stage. This allows me to conveniently replace the external jack, when needed, from wear.
  
 Dave


----------



## UNOE

Can't view photo. Insert photo into the thread


----------



## Dave Popovich

Did you click on the link?


----------



## Dave Popovich

Sorry, let's try this:


----------



## EinZweiDrei

where do you buy this op amp?
 can you still put the lid back on the m stage after installing that burson opamp?


----------



## Mad Max

No, the lid will not fit back on with any kind of Burson opamp standing up.
  
 Why the extra socket, though?


----------



## peter123

mad max said:


> No, the lid will not fit back on with any kind of Burson opamp standing up.
> 
> Why the extra socket, though?




Seriously? That kind of makes it useless. Without the lid dust will be a serious problem.

The V5 SS is only 29mm high so I would have thought that the lid would fit back on.


----------



## Dave Popovich

You can buy Burson Audio op-amps direct:
  
 http://www.bursonaudio.com/products/supreme-sound-opamp-v5/
  
 The V5-OPA-D is shipped with an extender base:
  
  
 Once you remove it, you will have the clearance needed to put the cover back tightly on the Matrix M-Stage.


----------



## peter123

dave popovich said:


> You can buy Burson Audio op-amps direct:
> 
> http://www.bursonaudio.com/products/supreme-sound-opamp-v5/
> 
> ...




Excellent, thanks for clarifying!


----------



## Dave Popovich

In my reviews of the Burson Audio Supreme Sound V5-OPA-D op-amp chip, I may have neglected to mention, how, when comparing it to the Matrix M-Stage's stock OPA2134 op-amp, that it replaces, how there is so much less high frequency smear with the Burson Audio chip. There is simply no denying that. I also need to mention how incredibly wide the soundstage is with the V5 op-amp. For instance, when something is panned right, with the V5 op-amp, it seems to be so far right, that it is almost beyond belief, which would mean that the chip has incredible separation. Listening to audio through the Supreme Sound V5 op-amp is an experience that you may have never heard before. It's an all around (necessary) worthwhile upgrade (IMO), and it sounds absolutely fantastic through my trusty reference SONY 7506 headphones. I'd also like to mention how stable audio sounds through the V5. With the OPA 2134, I can hear some image movement of frequencies and instruments. With the V5, these images are now rock solid. I am mainly a transistor guy, because I like low distortion (unless it's made by the musicians). Most of the times I recognize distortion by a haze around the audio. With the Supreme Sound V5 chip, I don't hear any haze at all.   
  
 Dave


----------



## Mad Max

2134/2132 is junk, tons of opamps sound better, even the ubiquitous 2068, 4556, and 4580.


----------



## EinZweiDrei

im really worried about that popping sound in hear in my headphones during power cycles with the phones plugged in.
 so my sessions goes something like this.
 1 - turn m stage amp on
 2 - plug headphone (i hear a little pop here but not as bad)
 3 - crank the volume knob up(usually around 10 o clock position)
 4 - play music
 after listening session is done it goes like this
 1 - turn off all music/sounds
 2 - turn volume all the way back down
 3 - unplug headphone
 4 - turn off m stage

 am i doing this correctly or do some of you have a different set of rituals when using the m stage.


----------



## DaemonSire

einzweidrei said:


> im really worried about that popping sound in hear in my headphones during power cycles with the phones plugged in.
> so my sessions goes something like this.
> 1 - turn m stage amp on
> 2 - plug headphone (i hear a little pop here but not as bad)
> ...


 
  
 You have the exact procedure down.  Honestly, this is a good practice for any amp, M-Stage or otherwise.


----------



## EinZweiDrei

how does emotiva stealth dc-1 compare to this?


----------



## peter123

My Burson V5 arrived today and after a couple of hours listening to it I think it's safe to say that it's an amazing little product.

I've been going back and forward between the Muses8820 and the class A biased OPA627 the last couple of months and I'm really impressed of how the V5 manage to take the M-stage to a whole new level in comparison. 

Unfortunately I'll be pretty busy the next couple of days but I hope that I'll be able to share some more impressions by the end of this weekend.


----------



## Dave Popovich

If you think *that* sounds good, just wait until you try the V5 in a Supreme Sound Lycan. You'll think you died and went to heaven. If you can, put it on your future purchase list (it's very affordably priced). After hearing the Lycan, with the V5, the Matrix M-Stage will sound slow, and sloppy. I really want to love my Matrix M-Stage again, but the Lycan is just so quick, with every musical note. Vocalists sound like they are standing right in front of you, singing to no one else but you. BTW, what is your current headphone of choice?


----------



## peter123

dave popovich said:


> If you think *that* sounds good, just wait until you try the V5 in a Supreme Sound Lycan. You'll think you died and went to heaven. If you can, put it on your future purchase list (it's very affordably priced). After hearing the Lycan, with the V5, the Matrix M-Stage will sound slow, and sloppy. I really want to love my Matrix M-Stage again, but the Lycan is just so quick, with every musical note. Vocalists sound like they are standing right in front of you, singing to no one else but you. BTW, what is your current headphone of choice?




Lol! There's always the next step up 

The Lycan looks really nice though, I will have to read up a bit.

I've got way to many headphones (surprise in here) but for the last year the Fidelio X2's have been my favorite. The Q701, SR325is and a couple of different modded T50RP's also get some head time.


----------



## Charliemotta

peter123 said:


> dave popovich said:
> 
> 
> > If you think *that* sounds good, just wait until you try the V5 in a Supreme Sound Lycan. You'll think you died and went to heaven. If you can, put it on your future purchase list (it's very affordably priced). After hearing the Lycan, with the V5, the Matrix M-Stage will sound slow, and sloppy. I really want to love my Matrix M-Stage again, but the Lycan is just so quick, with every musical note. Vocalists sound like they are standing right in front of you, singing to no one else but you. BTW, what is your current headphone of choice?
> ...


 
 You lucky dog. I wish I could get some head time...


----------



## Charliemotta

dave popovich said:


> If you think *that* sounds good, just wait until you try the V5 in a Supreme Sound Lycan. You'll think you died and went to heaven. If you can, put it on your future purchase list (it's very affordably priced). After hearing the Lycan, with the V5, the Matrix M-Stage will sound slow, and sloppy. I really want to love my Matrix M-Stage again, but the Lycan is just so quick, with every musical note. Vocalists sound like they are standing right in front of you, singing to no one else but you. BTW, what is your current headphone of choice?


 
 The only place that I can find that sells the V5 is Austrailia,


----------



## peter123

charliemotta said:


> The only place that I can find that sells the V5 is Austrailia,




Yep, that's where I got mine


----------



## peter123

HPA-1 revisited 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 http://www.head-fi.org/products/matrix-m-stage/reviews/15038


----------



## Vobluda

I just got used HPA-1 from ebay. To my surprise when I open it I have noticed that condensators are scratched:
  
  

  

  
 Any thoughts please?
 Is the production quality so poor?


----------



## Spiral Out

There are a couple of scratches on one of the capacitors in mine. It's about 4 years old and still works great. I wouldn't worry about it.


----------



## bracko

^^
 Those are not scratches. Take a look at the small electrolyte capacitors. There are lines there as well. They are strategically weakened parts of the casing which will bulge upwards and help the capacitor release hydrogen and/or electrolyte in case of pressure build up due to overheating.


----------



## goldiee36

Besides of that you can seee there are some scratches also. It's strange but if it works well...


----------



## bracko

goldiee36 said:


> Besides of that you can seee there are some scratches also. It's strange but if it works well...


 
  
 Oh thanks 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I didn't see the real scratches.


----------



## ostewart

Updated M-Stage: http://www.head-fi.org/t/801601/new-matrix-audio-hpa-2c-classic-amp-dac
  
 Received mine today, but not had a chance to listen to it as I'm at work. Hopefully have some impressions this evening, test it with the Fostex TH500rp, Beyer T1 and others.


----------



## socks mk2

~


----------



## lakiozoon

Every time i want to listen to my speakers i have to plug out my headphones.
 Is there a way to mod the amplifier so i can have a switch between headphone out and line out?


----------



## Plougski74

do somebody know how the Matrix M Stage HPA-1 with the Burson Audio V5 SS (Supreme Sound) op-amp chip compares to the Gustard H10? Im asking because the H10 is on massdrop for a great price, but if I get a lot of its performance by upgrading my Matrix with the Burson op amp I will safe some $$


----------



## Mad Max

Rolling opamp tunes the sound to a degree, can get you a small performance boost if you use something like LME49860 or OPA827, but from what I read, slight changes won't be enough for M-Stage to compare to the H10.  You're better off going with the H10.
 I intend to as well, later.


----------



## Plougski74

Thanks Mad Max - I ended up buying the Gustard so looking forward to see how it performs.


----------



## FaezFarhan

Anyone tried pairing the Aune T1 & the M-stage HPA-3B before? Planning to get it for my AKG K7XX.. Also have the Fostex TH-X00 coming in september but I'm not sure if I'll use that headphone with this setup


----------



## Chillzone21

Does it use burr brown?


----------



## Pharmaboy

I have 2 HPA-1s. Bought a mint/used 2012 v.2 model for a gift desktop system I'm setting up for my brother, and when I heard how good it sounded (shockingly musical in my system), I promptly purchased another used one, an extremely mint 2013 v.2 model for myself.
  
 I changed the volume knobs on both--the originals are impossible to see and don't feel very good to actually handle/adjust--and ordered the OPA627AP opamp (on browndog adapter) which I'll put in my 2013 HPA-1. It already sounds very nice...just hoping to fine-tune that niceness. 
  
 Someone mentioned possibly driving the Fostex TH-X00s with the M Stage HPA-1 a few msgs back in this thread. I have done that w/my TH-X00, and the HPA-1 drives it about as well as any other HP amp on hand (the TH-X00 aren't a difficult load in my experience).
  
 Something I should emphasize about the HPA-1 that no one else seems to remark on: it works exceedingly well as a preamp. True, there are only 2 inputs (2 RCA input pairs), which is fewer than the 4-6 inputs found on most full-function preamps. But on the desktop, that's really more than enough. I use the RCA inputs from my DAC, and send the output of the HPA-1 to my powered speakers (Swan M200 MkIII) + sub. The volume control of the HPA-1 works silently & well...no pops or surprises (important w/powered speakers!).
  
 In the coming weeks I'll replace my current DAC (Peachtree Audio DAC ITx) with an Audio GD NOS 19, and I'll run it through the HPA-1. That's a huge DAC upgrade, and it tells you how well I regard the HPA-1 as a preamp...


----------



## Mad Max

pharmaboy said:


> I have 2 HPA-1s. Bought a mint/used 2012 v.2 model for a gift desktop system I'm setting up for my brother, and when I heard how good it sounded (shockingly musical in my system), I promptly purchased another used one, an extremely mint 2013 v.2 model for myself.
> 
> I changed the volume knobs on both--the originals are impossible to see and don't feel very good to actually handle/adjust--and ordered the OPA627AP opamp (on browndog adapter) which I'll put in my 2013 HPA-1. It already sounds very nice...just hoping to fine-tune that niceness.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Could be because this isn't a speakers forum. Maybe.
  
 Yeah, I've tried it out as a preamp as well and it rocks.  Better bass, more clarity, better imaging.


----------



## Mr Newyear

pharmaboy said:


> I have 2 HPA-1s. Bought a mint/used 2012 v.2 model for a gift desktop system I'm setting up for my brother, and when I heard how good it sounded (shockingly musical in my system), I promptly purchased another used one, an extremely mint 2013 v.2 model for myself.
> 
> I changed the volume knobs on both--the originals are impossible to see and don't feel very good to actually handle/adjust--and ordered the OPA627AP opamp (on browndog adapter) which I'll put in my 2013 HPA-1. It already sounds very nice...just hoping to fine-tune that niceness.
> 
> ...


 

 What size/which volume knobs did you get? And how do you remove the stock volume knob?


----------



## Pharmaboy

First off, you need a 1.5mm hex wrench (the 90 degree kind) to remove the stock volume knob. That's not a common size--smaller than usual. I had to go to Harbor Freight and buy a big set, of which the 1.5mm is the smallest wrench.
  
 Then I spent a crazy # of hours online looking for a volume knob that would fit the width (30mm) and rather long depth of this volume pot's shaft. I ended up buying 2 pairs from GD Parts on ebay (I have 2 x HPA-1's)--but oddly, only 1 pair actually fit.
  
 Here's the listing for the pair that fits (and actually good & in proportion to the HPA-1):
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Full-Aluminum-Pointer-Knobs-for-Amplifier-CD-DAC-Radio-Turntable-30x22mm-Black-2-/321976848465
  
 If you want a single volume knob like this, you'll just have to slog through the listings from GD Parts store on ebay.
  
 Oddly, the replacement knob requires a 2mm hex wrench, not the 1.5mm wrench used to take off the stock knob (go figure).
  
 FYI, it takes a full 2 weeks for the order to arrive via ePacket from China.
  
 It's still a bit difficult hard to see what volume the replacement knob is set to in very low lighting--but in any semi-normal lighting you can see this knob just fine, unlike the stock pot, which is just about impossible to see in any lighting. It also feels a lot better "in the hand" when you're using it...


----------



## Mr Newyear

pharmaboy said:


> First off, you need a 1.5mm hex wrench (the 90 degree kind) to remove the stock volume knob. That's not a common size--smaller than usual. I had to go to Harbor Freight and buy a big set, of which the 1.5mm is the smallest wrench.
> 
> Then I spent a crazy # of hours online looking for a volume knob that would fit the width (30mm) and rather long depth of this volume pot's shaft. I ended up buying 2 pairs from GD Parts on ebay (I have 2 x HPA-1's)--but oddly, only 1 pair actually fit.
> 
> ...


 

 Wow sounds like a lot of work 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Thanks for the info!


----------



## Pharmaboy

yeah, it is a lot of work. I kinda got carried away: the stock volume knob annoyed me, plus I'd seen pictures of HPA-1's with aftermarket knobs, so I knew it could be done.
  
 also replaced the stock opamp w/the OPA627AP purchased from Tam Audio. it's only 1-2 days since that mod, but the change is audible & rather nice--well worth the time & cost IMO.


----------



## lakiozoon

Is it possible to use Matrix amplifier with unbalanced line output as a pre-amp for studio monitors with balanced input (yamaha HS8 monitors).
 As far as I am aware, it should work but I am looking to find out are there any significant drawbacks in doing so?
  
 P.S.
 Bear in mind, I plan to use the monitor speakers for home use (PC audio listening).
  
 Any advice is mostly appreciated,
 Regards!


----------



## Pharmaboy

The connections you describe are certainly no problem from the Matrix HPA-1 amp side: the RCA line-out uses a standard RCA interconnect plug that accepts RCA male plugs (R for right channel, L for left channel)--like any other single ended audio device.
  
 As for the Yamaha, I just downloaded the manual and checked it (available at: http://download.yamaha.com/api/asset/file/?language=en&site=usa.yamaha.com&asset_id=67446).
  
 Apparently you can connect single-ended, unbalanced interconnects to these speakers. Here are excerpts from the manual:
  
 Pg-5, under "*Connectable Cables*"
 "*RCA pin*
 Source devices that only have RCA pin type output connectors can be connected via RCA pin plug to phone plug conversion cables (cables with an RCA pin plug on one end and a phone plug on the other). Connections using RCA pin plug to phone plug conversion cables are unbalanced."
  
_(and)_
  
 "*Balanced connections:* These effectively cancel noise picked up from external sources. Balanced connections allow for longer cable runs that would probably otherwise result in more noise being picked up."
  
 You apparently own the Yamahas and so would be familiar with their I/O connectors. I looked at those sections quoted above (which suggest 1/4" TRS-type unbalanced connections to me); then looked on pg-6, where the diagram confirms the unbalanced input connection is for 1/4" TRS connector ("These connectors receive the input signal to the speaker. Two input connectors are provided: one balanced XLR connector, and one balanced (TRS) phone jack.").
  
 So all you'll need to make this work are 2 RCA female-to-TRS-male adapter; each one goes on the R & L end of the interconnect coming from the HPA-1.
  
 I used a slightly different version of the adapters for years (the types needed to connect a 1/4" TRS cable to RCA input connectors) with great success & zero sound degredation. I researched these connectors thoroughly, and the best reviewed ones I could fine were made by "Hosa."
  
 The type of adapters you need are "*Hosa GPR-101*":
  
 -- Amazon has a pair @$2.55 each (plus you can read the reviews):
 https://www.amazon.com/Hosa-GPR-101-inch-Adaptors-pieces/dp/B000068O3S/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1473091484&sr=8-2&keywords=Hosa+Cable+1%2F4+inch+male+TS+the+rca+female
  
 -- Sweetwater has the pair for $2.95. I bought my Hosa connectors at Sweetwater bacause the shipping was more reasonable than Amazon's, plus there's none of that uncertainty of Amazon sellers "who's who":
 http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/GPR101
  
 (of course, you could buy this type of adapter made by other mfrs--up to you)
  
 BTW, everything I've heard about the Yamahas is that they're very clear, accurate monitors. So I'm guessing the big warm sound of the m stage HPA-1 will be a great match for them. Please give me your impressions once you get the system hooked up and have a chance to evaluate its sound...
  
 Regards,
  
 Peter


----------



## Pharmaboy

Forgot to respond to the pre-amp part of your question: yes, the line-out of the m stage HPA-1 is definitely controlled by the volume control, so it definitely makes a good preamp to control powered speakers. In fact, that is how I'm currently using mine:
  
 -- the speakers are Swan M200 MKIIIs. they have their own volume knob, but i bypass that by turning it up to the max so that the HPA-1 is controlling the level
  
 -- the source is an Audio GD NOS-19 DAC run into the HPA-1 as a line-in source
  
 With the sole caveat being that the stock volume knob of the HPA-1 (as explained above) is a pain to see & use, this amp otherwise is an extremely functional & rational pre-amp solution for powered speakers. In 4+ months of using mine as a preamp, I've never has a single odd noise, burst of static, or other unexpected event.
  
 Bear in mind that whatever gain setting you select for the amp will be fully expressed in the line-out, and therefore will affect the volume of your powered speakers. So I suppose that if you needed to routinely select the highest gain setting to drive finicky headphones, but found doing that meant you're maxing out speaker volume at 9-10 o'clock on the HPA-1's volume knob...oh, well.
  
 BTW, when you plug headphones into the HPA-1, it mutes the line-out to your speakers. Some people like that; others don't. But it works exactly as designed, and again, I've never had a moment of noisy/unexpected behavior from the unit when plugging/unplugging 'phones.


----------



## lakiozoon

Woah, thanks for your support, this answered *all* my questions/doubts. Most helpful post I've ever gotten, /salute!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I own the Matrix HPA-1 and I've been using it with my Sennheiser HD650 and M-Audio AV40 speakers. With HD650 the sound is on the warm side, but i do like it.
  
 I considered buying Genelec-s (8030/G3 series), but then I would most likely need a woofer and that would be well over my budget. So now I'm set on getting the Yamaha-s since 8" driver doesn't really need a woofer, at least from what I've heard.
 I will report on them when I get them, but it will take some time (need to get the new table etc...). Probably in a month or two.
  
 Quote:


> With the sole caveat being that the stock volume knob of the HPA-1 (as explained above) is a pain to see & use, this amp otherwise is an extremely functional & rational pre-amp solution for powered speakers. In 4+ months of using mine as a preamp, I've never has a single odd noise, burst of static, or other unexpected event.
> 
> BTW, when you plug headphones into the HPA-1, it mutes the line-out to your speakers. Some people like that; others don't. But it works exactly as designed, and again, I've never had a moment of noisy/unexpected behavior from the unit when plugging/unplugging 'phones.


 

I also considered replacing the volume knob, and will do it eventually mostly cause it's a pain to see the little red dot in the dark environment. 
About the line-out muting, it never failed on me, but personally I would like to have a switch just so I don't need to plug/unplug headphones every time I switch to my speakers. That modification is probably doable but I don't have the knowledge to do so.
  
 I've been using the HPA-1 for over a year now and I'm really satisfied with it. Noise is almost non existent and it serves me as a pre-amp too. I compared it to a few much more expensive amplifiers and I couldn't hear the difference, it held it's ground.
  
 Again, thanks for all your help.
 Regards!


----------



## Pharmaboy

You're welcome! HPA-1 owners have to stick together...
  
 That little amp is shockingly good. If you spend big bucks you can get better, but it has to be at least 2-3X the cost of the HPA-1 to get much better.
  
 Anyway, I forgot to tell you 1 possibly important factoid about the HPA-1 used as a pre-amp. When I first put it in my system, I had it plugged into a different outlet thethe speakers + sub + DAC, which I turn on/off via the switched, 6-plug power strip they're all plugged into. Once those components were on, I would turn on HPA-1, but it made an unwelcome turn-on "thump" (more objectionable because of the sub, no doubt).
  
 But when I plugged the HPA-1 into the same power-strip at the other components, so that they all turned on/off at the same time, no more thump.
  
 I probably could have made the problem go away just as well by turning on the HPA-1 before the other units (and keeping it plugged in separately)--but I found the power-strip solution easier/more convenient.
  
 (something to be aware of when using it as a pre-amp)
  
 Good luck w/the Yamaha speakers. They look excellent...
  
 I never looked at them for myself (too big for my desktop)--or the Genelec (too much $$). I did jones a lot for the Adam 7X, also a lot of $$ + borderlline too big, but I'm really happy w/the Swans (very musical). And in 1-2 months I'll upgrade the sub to an SVS SB-1000, which should be a nice bump.


----------



## rikk009

Does HPA-1 and HPA-3 have same amp section/sound? I am thinking of jumping on a used HPA-1 for amp.


----------



## Pharmaboy

I own 2 HPA-1s (both are 2012/2013 rev-2 vintage). Along the way I read many reviews of all HPA iterations. Can't remember all the details at the moment, but I'm almost certain the design changed significantly from HPA-1 to HPA-2, and even more from 2 to 3, losing that warm, euphonic, bass-rich quality I & others find so appealing about the HPA-1. I recall one or more reviews of the HPA-3 describing it as "tonally accurate," a term never used to describe the HPA-1 (I wouldn't own it if that was the case!).
  
 The HPA-1 totally suits my taste in sound reproduction--listening to it right now. I use it as a desktop pre-amp/HP amp. I have a better HP amp (Lake People G109A) but the HPA-1 is really good in its own right. It's definitely not a throwaway as a headphone amp. I cranked it up a few nights ago w/my Fidelio X2s and that baby really rocked.
  
 Some links are listed below. BTW, if you go looking for HPA-1s, something to keep in mind is this model was revised sometime in 2012, with improvements in power and specs for the HP amp section. Better to look for models with 2012 or 2013 in the SN (1st four #s of SN are the model year).
  

 Here's a 2010 review of the HPA-1:
http://www.headfonia.com/matrix-m-stage/
  
 Specs on the HPA-1:
https://headphoniaks.com/gb/dac-amplificadores/53-matrix-mstage-headphones-amplifier.html
  
  
 An October, 2015 review of the balanced version of the HPA-3:
http://headphone.guru/the-impressive-m-stage-hpa-3b-balanced-headphone-amplifier/
  
 More specs on the HPA-3B:
http://www.noisymotel.com/product.asp?ProductID=940


----------



## rikk009

Thanks Pharmaboy. Yes I looked at those reviews some even said there was no difference between HPA-1 and HPA-2 amp sections hence my confusion. Thanks once again for clarifying that. I will ask the seller for the version. This one comes with a DAC which is not any noteworthy if I go by the reviews.


----------



## Andreeas1978

For everyone experiencing the problem of cracking, popping noises on the hpa 2 usb version using its own DAC, after going crazy and trying everything  possible software and drivers related I have discovered that it works perfect on USB 3.0 connection, maybe the 2.0 couldn't`t provide enough power.  It was driving me out of my mind, thinking to even change my MB at one point... Fixed and tested now. I use mine with Sennheiser HD800 and recently upgraded with Burson Audio SS V5 D opamp. Sounds better for sure! How much better cannot tell yet, it`s too soon. First thing to notice was tighter and stronger bass response.


----------



## rikk009

pharmaboy said:


> I own 2 HPA-1s (both are 2012/2013 rev-2 vintage). Along the way I read many reviews of all HPA iterations. Can't remember all the details at the moment, but I'm almost certain the design changed significantly from HPA-1 to HPA-2, and even more from 2 to 3, losing that warm, euphonic, bass-rich quality I & others find so appealing about the HPA-1. I recall one or more reviews of the HPA-3 describing it as "tonally accurate," a term never used to describe the HPA-1 (I wouldn't own it if that was the case!).
> 
> The HPA-1 totally suits my taste in sound reproduction--listening to it right now. I use it as a desktop pre-amp/HP amp. I have a better HP amp (Lake People G109A) but the HPA-1 is really good in its own right. It's definitely not a throwaway as a headphone amp. I cranked it up a few nights ago w/my Fidelio X2s and that baby really rocked.
> 
> ...


 
 Update: 
 So I didn't buy the HPA-1 due to fund crunch but now I have a HD6XX coming along and I definitely need to upgrade my amp. Currently, I am getting a HPA-2 w/DAC and HPA-1 w/DAC at the same price. I like the upgraded BB DAC on HPA-2 but I have now read atleast a couple places about HPA-1 sounding more 'rich' but given the pairing I don't know what will suit well. Can't afford 3U.


----------



## Pharmaboy

rikk009 said:


> Update:
> So I didn't buy the HPA-1 due to fund crunch but now I have a HD6XX coming along and I definitely need to upgrade my amp. Currently, I am getting a HPA-2 w/DAC and HPA-1 w/DAC at the same price. I like the upgraded BB DAC on HPA-2 but I have now read atleast a couple places about HPA-1 sounding more 'rich' but given the pairing I don't know what will suit well. Can't afford 3U.


 
  
 Wow--some nice new gear is on the way for you. I'll be very interested to hear your opinion of the HPA-2 vs HPA-1.
  
 Do you have the HD600 or HD650 on order? Never heard either, but they're said to sound somewhat different (600 being flatter/more detail & 650 being more "musical" & easy to listen to non-critically). Again, I'll be interested to hear how the new HPs sound on these amps.
   
I love that HPA-1!


----------



## rikk009

pharmaboy said:


> Wow--some nice new gear is on the way for you. I'll be very interested to hear your opinion of the HPA-2 vs HPA-1.
> 
> Do you have the HD600 or HD650 on order? Never heard either, but they're said to sound somewhat different (600 being flatter/more detail & 650 being more "musical" & easy to listen to non-critically). Again, I'll be interested to hear how the new HPs sound on these amps.
> 
> I love that HPA-1!


 
 I am in split minds. All the cans said to be a good match with M-Stage are bright cans(HD800/AKG/Beyer) but HD650 is darker, don't think it would pair well. Wish I could hear them before buying.


----------



## Mad Max

rikk009 said:


> I am in split minds. All the cans said to be a good match with M-Stage are bright cans(HD800/AKG/Beyer) but HD650 is darker, don't think it would pair well. Wish I could hear them before buying.


 
  
 HD650 being "darker" is about its lack of treble sparkle, yet its treble clarity and amount of treble are great.  In terms of treble alone, HD650 isn't very far at all from neutral-sounding, in my opinion.  M-Stage will not be a poor match at all unless you prefer a brighter sound, in which case, HD650 may not be for you.


----------



## runssical

The HD650 is nothing more than a music killing wet blanket. I have both, the HD600 and an HD650. Honestly the HD650s are so bad that I want to sell them.


----------



## lakiozoon

mad max said:


> HD650 being "darker" is about its lack of treble sparkle, yet its treble clarity and amount of treble are great.  In terms of treble alone, HD650 isn't very far at all from neutral-sounding, in my opinion.  M-Stage will not be a poor match at all unless you prefer a brighter sound, in which case, HD650 may not be for you.


 
  
 I completely agree. I had the AKG Q701, and sold em cause I didn't like the overly bright highs.
 Now I use Matrix M-stage HPA1 with HD650 and am really happy with both. My experience is that amps and dacs make very little difference (providing they are a decent amplifiers) and that headphones themselves make the biggest difference in sound signature. I tried my HD650 with different amps and dacs, and I couldn't honestly distinguish any of them in a blind test.
  
 If you like the design and the features, HPA1 is a safe bet. It is built like a tank with quality parts and has low noise.


----------



## Pharmaboy

rikk009 said:


> I am in split minds. All the cans said to be a good match with M-Stage are bright cans(HD800/AKG/Beyer) but HD650 is darker, don't think it would pair well. Wish I could hear them before buying.


 
  
 Here's my experience with the HPA-1 (no DAC in mine--I have an Audio GD NOS 19 for that). I use the HPA-1 ~12 hrs/day as a preamp in my desktop system. Most of my listening is low volume classical via the Swan M200 MkIII powered speakers (excellent). 4-5 tmes/wk I break out headphones and plug into the HPA-1 or Lake People G109A--both of which are active, getting signal from by the NOS 19's dual RCA outputs. I can readily compare the HPA-1 to the very straightforward/competent G109A, a slightly warm/smooth solid state design,
  
 In the past 4 months of so, I've listended to 6 headphones through the HPA-1:
  
 -- Fidelio X-2's, a distinctly "warm" semi-open design
 -- AKG K553's (since sold) which I found to be bass-shy and bright
 -- Takstar H6000's (currently F.S.), which U regard as fairly neutral
 -- JVC HA-SZ1000's, a renowned basshead headphone that actually is relatively flat w/o heavy equalization
 -- Yenona Adapter-Free DJ headphones, a "fun," V-shaped closed design with lots of bass & slightly elevated treble
 -- Marantz Pro MPH-2's, a closed design I find quite accurate with a very slightly elevated lower bass
  
 6 headphones: 3 considered "warm" (Fidelio X-2's, Yenona's, Marantz') & 1 considered "bright" (K553's).
  
 What I found is that the HPA-1, despite its overall (but not excessive) warmth & non-fatiguing treble, did not sound extremely different with any of the headphones vs the G109A amp, with 1 exception: the Yenona's sound slightly "boomy" in the bass/mid-bass on the HPA-1, somewhat less than on the G109A. But the Yenona's are borderline "too-much-bass" to begin with.
  
 I have concluded that the HPA-1, while having a sound signature that's perfect for me, doesn't really alter the sound of  headphones to any great degree. It doesn't really make bright ones remarkably un-bright, or pump up the bass in any garish way. It also isn't as powerful as several of my other amps (the G109A & Burson Soloist have 2-4X its power), but this hasn't mattered at all with the headphones I've used.
  
 All to say I really had to work to find headphones that didn't sound terrific on the HPA-1. And BTW, given the HPA-1's  convenient gain adjustments, you could slightly change its sound by upping the gain. I never bothered, leaving mine at minimum gain setting because it matches so well to my other gear.
  
 I'll bet the HD650s sound pretty good on an HPA-1...


----------



## rikk009

mad max said:


> HD650 being "darker" is about its lack of treble sparkle, yet its treble clarity and amount of treble are great.  In terms of treble alone, HD650 isn't very far at all from neutral-sounding, in my opinion.  M-Stage will not be a poor match at all unless you prefer a brighter sound, in which case, HD650 may not be for you.


 
 Thanks.


----------



## rikk009

pharmaboy said:


> Here's my experience with the HPA-1 (no DAC in mine--I have an Audio GD NOS 19 for that). I use the HPA-1 ~12 hrs/day as a preamp in my desktop system. Most of my listening is low volume classical via the Swan M200 MkIII powered speakers (excellent). 4-5 tmes/wk I break out headphones and plug into the HPA-1 or Lake People G109A--both of which are active, getting signal from by the NOS 19's dual RCA outputs. I can readily compare the HPA-1 to the very straightforward/competent G109A, a slightly warm/smooth solid state design,
> 
> In the past 4 months of so, I've listended to 6 headphones through the HPA-1:
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks for the in-depth reply. From your previous post I can gather that you like HPA-1 more than HPA-2.


----------



## Pharmaboy

rikk009 said:


> Thanks for the in-depth reply. From your previous post I can gather that you like HPA-1 more than HPA-2.


 
  
 That's sorta true... I do like the HPA-1 (a lot); it's my constant preamp/sometime HP amp. I've read everything I can find on the HPA-2 & HPA-3 because the brand interests me--but haven't actually listened to either model.
  
 Many comments highlighted tonal changes ("upgrades," depending on your taste) that Matrix made, going from HPA-1 to HPA-2: less bass-rich, more treble, more "accuracy." Reviews of the HPA-3 routinely describe it as flat, accurate, fast, and so on...terms that don't really describe the HPA-1.
  
 I'm averse to elevated upper midrange & treble (that hurts my ears & gives me headaches); also fond of bass/mid-bass, so long as it's kept in check. I've learned to "read between the lines" of reviews/comments, and it's likely I'd be disappointed by the HPA-2 or 3.


----------



## Andreeas1978

Doesn't HPA-1 and 2 have the same AMP section, or I just remember wrong..? Not sure anymore..


----------



## Pharmaboy

I'm not sure either, so I looked around online. Having trouble finding reviews of the HPA-2 (there are many for HPA-1 & HPA-3). I'm finding scattered reviews of the HPA-2 that bundles a DAC, but none of the plain-jane HP amp version.
  
 Here's one from Head-Fi in which the author says he couldn't find any differences between amp sections of the 2: http://www.head-fi.org/products/matrix-m-stage-hpa-2-w-usb-dac
  
 Here's a separate Head-Fi thread on the HPA-2, but it's confusing as hell...can't tell if they're critiquing the DAC, the HP amp, or what. And several comments effectively trash both the HPA-1 and HPA-2 (everybody's different & so are the opinions): http://www.head-fi.org/t/693278/2014-matrix-mstage-hpa2
  
 BTW, I went to the trouble of buying the OPA627 opamp everyone says if the 1st/most logical upgrade for their HPA-1. I installed it, burned it in for a few days, desperately tried to like it--but hated it. Though it improved the soundstaging, it also made the HPA-1 considerably brighter...not a good thing at all, since I really like it's listener-friendly treble.


----------



## Andreeas1978

Yes, the first link got me started! Then I bought it for my HD800. Then I replaced the opamp with Burson V5D. I am very happy with it but I do not have so much experience or finesse to formulate a pertinent opinion. I have the DAC version and I know it uses a Burr-Brown chip, nothing really special. Sometimes I use it only as Amp from an Audiotehnica turntable or from iBasso HDP-R10 which was praised as supreme SQ on its time. I am very happy with it but I am no golden ears guy. I will start studying the second link you posted and see what I can get from it. Thanks!
Maybe you should read about the Burson v5 opamp, it needs the D double version. I find it more refined somehow, do not regret the 70$ investment. It is by no mean more harsh, with HD800 that would have pierce my brain, they are by default so bright! You will find a v5 thread on headfi also, that's how I got to it. Don't push yourself to like something that's not your cup of tea!
But I cannot recommend it to you, different ears different perception, even if the hardware is really good, might not fit your style.. For instance, melodies with high pitch trumpets scratch my ears and brain like crazy no matter how good or expensive the hardware is..I came to the conclusion (medically tested) that I have some kind of ear trauma from work..


----------



## Andreeas1978

Hm... It's not clear if they talk about listening through the DAC section or just AMP, there might be the Sinergy problem between HPA and different headsets and the burn in thing that generates so much argue, and then the human factor, tastes etc. I don't know what to say. I use mine with HD800 and sometimes with JBL S700. I'm totally good with it! I'm no expert but I use only WAV up to 192khz and sometimes I can feel when for instance a track has bad masterization or bad compression. It just sounds screechy or congested. Many times I load the tracks in Adobe CC to see what's going on and you can see if it's compressed and mastered like a big chunk of wood with all freqs up on the same level and then cut like with a knife.


----------



## Pharmaboy

andreeas1978 said:


> Hm... It's not clear if they talk about listening through the DAC section or just AMP, there might be the Sinergy problem between HPA and different headsets and the burn in thing that generates so much argue, and then the human factor, tastes etc. I don't know what to say. I use mine with HD800 and sometimes with JBL S700. I'm totally good with it! I'm no expert but I use only WAV up to 192khz and sometimes I can feel when for instance a track has bad masterization or bad compression. It just sounds screechy or congested. Many times I load the tracks in Adobe CC to see what's going on and you can see if it's compressed and mastered like a big chunk of wood with all freqs up on the same level and then cut like with a knife.


 
  
 Yes, reviews are unclear. All that IS clear is how the HPA-2 sounds to you (think you're talking about the HPA-2). As Duke Ellington famously said, "If it sounds good, it is good."
  
 My HPA-1 has no DAC. My DAC is the Audio GD NOS 19. That makes evaluating the HPA-1's inherent sound a little easier: I used it as a preamp and sometimes as headphone amp. I have other headphones amps, one of which is also a preamp, so I can compare the HPA-1 to other quality units. For example:
  
*HPA-1 vs Burson Soloist *(the big/powerful one, not the SL model)--as both a preamp and a HP amp: The Burson is larger, clearly more powerful, but much harder to actually use because it's stepped potentiometer has relative few steps (21 or 22 total). The Burson has slightly greater extension at both ends and the bass hits like a hammer. It's probably "technically" better than the M Stage, but I actually prefer the HPA-1 for its easy-to-use volume pot and listener-friendly qualities of warm and slightly elevated bass.
  
*HPA-1 vs Lake People G109A* (as HP amp): These 2 sound rather different, but in very subtle ways. The G109A is more powerful, relatively flat, with a hint of warmth and smoothness. It doesn't exaggerate treble (any frequency, really). I call it a "truth-teller," but it's not fatiguing at all. The HPA-1 is slightly looser, less of a grip on everything, but somehow is fun & friendly--a somewhat warm, bass-rich sound. 
  
 The HPA-1 should fail in comparison to these more powerful headphone amps, but it doesn't. It always sound good and has plenty of power for any of the headphones I've used: I use it on the lowest gain setting and can't get the volume pot up even halfway w/o going deaf.


----------



## leeperry

andreeas1978 said:


> melodies with high pitch trumpets scratch my ears and brain like crazy no matter how good or expensive the hardware is


 
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/413900/how-to-equalize-your-headphones-a-tutorial


----------



## Andreeas1978

Thanks, leeperry, I know the thread, a good one!
Pharmaboy, yes I have the HPA-2 DAC version, sorry for not being clear!  I was talking only about the AMP section, I have the DAC version but it has 2 different lines which you can select. Either usb-dac-amp either whatever input I want RCA-AMP only section. In this regard it is the same build like the non DAC version, but with one of the input lines replaced by usb input. Most of the times I do not use the DAC.


----------



## clarktrent

This seems just a bit fishy but it's the best deal in town for one of these. Has anyone had any experience with this dealer before?


----------



## peter123

clarktrent said:


> This seems just a bit fishy but it's the best deal in town for one of these. Has anyone had any experience with this dealer before?




I'm actually pretty sure that's where I got my HPA-1 about two years ago....

Edit: no problem whatsoever with the transaction btw


----------



## Pharmaboy

peter123 said:


> I'm actually pretty sure that's where I got my HPA-1 about two years ago....
> 
> Edit: no problem whatsoever with the transaction btw


 
  
 I agree.
  
 I didn't buy either of my HPA-1's new--purchased both used from different sellers on AudioMart--but when I researched sellers for new HPA-1's, "coolbaby11" kept popping up as a longtime/OK seller on ebay. I remember seeing 1-2 other positive comments about this seller, either in Head-Fi or the computeraudio board.
  
 So I can't say this from personal experience, but it does seem this seller is OK.


----------



## DW75

I have had the M-Stage HPA-2 (NON USB Version) for a while now. A short time after I got it, I ended up putting in the LME49860. It was a great upgrade. Well, I ended up taking out the LME49860 today. In its place, I put in the LME49990. This opamp makes the M-Stage sound amazing. I can see why it was one of the most recommended opamps to put in this puppy. The sound stage got even wider than it was with the LME49860. The bass has more extension. This opamp is very fast and extremely detailed. Everything is just so spacious, clean, and articulate sounding. The midrange is rather lush and layered. With my DT880 250 Ohm I am totally impressed. The synergy with this amp, and with this opamp installed is the best I have found yet with these headphones.


----------



## Pharmaboy

dw75 said:


> I have had the M-Stage HPA-2 (NON USB Version) for a while now. A short time after I got it, I ended up putting in the LME49860. It was a great upgrade. Well, I ended up taking out the LME49860 today. In its place, I put in the LME49990. This opamp makes the M-Stage sound amazing. I can see why it was one of the most recommended opamps to put in this puppy. The sound stage got even wider than it was with the LME49860. The bass has more extension. This opamp is very fast and extremely detailed. Everything is just so spacious, clean, and articulate sounding. The midrange is rather lush and layered. With my DT880 250 Ohm I am totally impressed. The synergy with this amp, and with this opamp installed is the best I have found yet with these headphones.


 
  
 LME 49990? Never heard of it. Does that come on the little board that holds 2 of them, like the OPA627 did for my HPA-1?
  
 I've learned to be wary of opamp swap-outs. I like the basic sound of the HPA-1 (non-DAC version): warm, euphonic, forgiving, bassy, totally listenable if not the ultimate in audiophile-approved razor-sharp detail (which I don't want anyway).
  
 I got the OPA627's on brown dog adapter (this opamp was almost universally described as an inevitably good upgrade for the HPA-1), installed them in place of stock opamp...then for 2 weeks desperately tried to like the striking changes in sound: clearly enhanced soundstage & center-image, greater clarity. But so bright! It was pretty bad on speakers, but listening to the HPA-1 w/headphones became torture. It turned from a very listenable, friendly amp to a treble cannon.
  
 I put back the stock opamp and never looked back.
  
 So my question would be, exactly what changes did you hear that the LME 49990 introduced, compared to stock opamp?


----------



## leeperry

pharmaboy said:


> I got the OPA627's on brown dog adapter (..) I put back the stock opamp and never looked back.


 
  
 99% of cheap 627's are fake, especially on ebay so you dunno what you're getting as they'll just fake the writings on any cheapie they could source ^^


----------



## Pharmaboy

leeperry said:


> 99% of cheap 627's are fake, especially on ebay so you dunno what you're getting as they'll just fake the writings on any cheapie they could source ^^


 
  
 Normally I would agree with you. However, in this case I purchased from Tam Audio, who's been repeatedly/positively mentioned in various opamp posts here & elsewhere, including the 336-pg thread devoted to the HPA-1. He's been around for years. I purchased direct from his website, not ebay; there's a US address associated w/the website.
  
 Does this mean my OPA627's are guaranteed geniune? Hard to be completely sure: still, it's way more ratification than you can find for many audio parts sellers on eBay.


----------



## leeperry

figures, tam is selling fake 627's AFAIK much like every chinese seller....anyway, get some 49990 from a reputable seller 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 and tam's class A kludge is not something I'd recommend anyway.


----------



## Pharmaboy

leeperry said:


> figures, tam is selling fake 627's AFAIK much like every chinese seller....anyway, get some 49990 from a reputable seller
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Who is a reputable dealer?
  
 And what is it you hear from the 49990 vs stock opamp that makes them worth installing? I'm talking subjective/sound impressions, that stuff.
  
 I'm curious what it is you're hearing from this opamp upgrade...


----------



## leeperry

pharmaboy said:


> what is it you hear from the 49990 vs stock opamp that makes them worth installing? I'm talking subjective/sound impressions, that stuff.


 
  
 Oh, it's pure placebo actually but you might as well give it a whirl ^^


----------



## DW75

dw75 said:


> I have had the M-Stage HPA-2 (NON USB Version) for a while now. A short time after I got it, I ended up putting in the LME49860. It was a great upgrade. Well, I ended up taking out the LME49860 today. In its place, I put in the LME49990. This opamp makes the M-Stage sound amazing. I can see why it was one of the most recommended opamps to put in this puppy. The sound stage got even wider than it was with the LME49860. The bass has more extension. This opamp is very fast and extremely detailed. Everything is just so spacious, clean, and articulate sounding. The midrange is rather lush and layered. With my DT880 250 Ohm I am totally impressed. The synergy with this amp, and with this opamp installed is the best I have found yet with these headphones.


 
  
  


pharmaboy said:


> LME 49990? Never heard of it. Does that come on the little board that holds 2 of them, like the OPA627 did for my HPA-1?
> 
> I've learned to be wary of opamp swap-outs. I like the basic sound of the HPA-1 (non-DAC version): warm, euphonic, forgiving, bassy, totally listenable if not the ultimate in audiophile-approved razor-sharp detail (which I don't want anyway).
> 
> ...


 
  
 The bass has better extension. The bass is also far tighter, more controlled, and impactful. It is much less loose sounding than the default OPA2134. The soundstage is much wider. Instrument location is very easy to detect in the mix. Everything sounds lush and more layered. Male vocals are far more forward in music, and sound right up front. The treble is more articulate. There is no grain present. It is clean and clear without fatigue.The extension is very nice. Details that the OPA2134 does not produce are revealed. So far, the biggest difference I heard was on Guns N Roses: Use Your Illusion 1. This album sounds insanely better on the LME49990 than it does on the OPA2134.


----------



## Pharmaboy

dw75 said:


> The bass has better extension. The bass is also far tighter, more controlled, and impactful. It is much less loose sounding than the default OPA2134. The soundstage is much wider. Instrument location is very easy to detect in the mix. Everything sounds lush and more layered. Male vocals are far more forward in music, and sound right up front. The treble is more articulate. There is no grain present. It is clean and clear without fatigue.The extension is very nice. Details that the OPA2134 does not produce are revealed. So far, the biggest difference I heard was on Guns N Roses: Use Your Illusion 1. This album sounds insanely better on the LME49990 than it does on the OPA2134.


 
  
 "The bass has better extension...it is much less loose sounding than the default OPA2134." (now you have my complete attention).
  
 I appreciate the ear-friendliness of the stock HPA-1. It's the opposite of bright, also a compact & effective system pre-amp, once the woeful volume knob is replaced w/one that can easily be seen. But it was easy to tell that the stock bass is somewhat loose & "boomy." One of my favorite inexpensive Chinese closed back headphones, the Yenona Adapter Free DJ model, sounded distinctly boomy on the HPA-1, but not on 2 other SS amps (Burson Soloist amp/preamp; and Lake People G109-A).
  
 Your description of the LME49990 intrigues me. I may have to try this. But how exactly do you buy this opamp in such a way that it installs properly in the HPA-1? Does the stock opamp come configured properly for the HPA-1, or do you have to buy 2 set onto an adapter, as I did for the OPA627?
  
 And where did you buy yours? Obviously I want to avoid fakes, which are very common, as @leeperry pointed out.


----------



## DW75

pharmaboy said:


> "The bass has better extension...it is much less loose sounding than the default OPA2134." (now you have my complete attention).
> 
> I appreciate the ear-friendliness of the stock HPA-1. It's the opposite of bright, also a compact & effective system pre-amp, once the woeful volume knob is replaced w/one that can easily be seen. But it was easy to tell that the stock bass is somewhat loose & "boomy." One of my favorite inexpensive Chinese closed back headphones, the Yenona Adapter Free DJ model, sounded distinctly boomy on the HPA-1, but not on 2 other SS amps (Burson Soloist amp/preamp; and Lake People G109-A).
> 
> ...


 
  
 You can purchase from this guy on EBAY. They are definitely authentic. Yes, it comes with two on the adapter. I think you will be impressed. The LME49990 is a far better sounding opamp than the OPA2134. There is no question about it. It is so much more refined, articulate, accurate, and detailed. I will be shocked if you come away unimpressed.
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/1PC-DUAL-SOIC-LME49990-OP-AMP-MODULE-DIP8-/201562948955?hash=item2eee16855b:g:A9QAAOSw6oBXEnVs


----------



## Pharmaboy

dw75 said:


> You can purchase from this guy on EBAY. They are definitely authentic. Yes, it comes with two on the adapter. I think you will be impressed. The LME49990 is a far better sounding opamp than the OPA2134. There is no question about it. It is so much more refined, articulate, accurate, and detailed. I will be shocked if you come away unimpressed.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/1PC-DUAL-SOIC-LME49990-OP-AMP-MODULE-DIP8-/201562948955?hash=item2eee16855b:g:A9QAAOSw6oBXEnVs


 
  
 Just purchased it. Went from "I never heard of this" to "I gotta have it!" in ~3 minutes (a personal best).
  
 Seriously, checked comments on this opamp, and you have lots of company in liking it. Others said things relatively similar to what you did here, leading me to believe this could actually do some sonic good for my beloved HPA-1.
  
 And it's cheap!
  
 Thanks very much for your help.


----------



## DW75

pharmaboy said:


> Just purchased it. Went from "I never heard of this" to "I gotta have it!" in ~3 minutes (a personal best).
> 
> Seriously, checked comments on this opamp, and you have lots of company in liking it. Others said things relatively similar to what you did here, leading me to believe this could actually do some sonic good for my beloved HPA-1.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hey, no problem, dude. You will be impressed. The first thing you will notice is the soundstage improvements, and the tighter bass. It really brings out the details in the music and gives you that head bobbing and foot tapping feel. I was immediately impressed with the instrument separation in various CDs I listened to yesterday. It is a rather revealing opamp. The bass on the opamp is very fast, accurate, and tight. There is no boomyness to it at all. The treble is very clean and articulate. The treble extends far better than the OPA2134, but it is so much cleaner sounding. As I mentioned before, male vocals really get pushed forward in the mix and are more pronounced. Everything sounds very realistic. Post back when you get it installed.


----------



## Pharmaboy

dw75 said:


> Hey, no problem, dude. You will be impressed. The first thing you will notice is the soundstage improvements, and the tighter bass. It really brings out the details in the music and gives you that head bobbing and foot tapping feel. I was immediately impressed with the instrument separation in various CDs I listened to yesterday. It is a rather revealing opamp. The bass on the opamp is very fast, accurate, and tight. There is no boomyness to it at all. The treble is very clean and articulate. The treble extends far better than the OPA2134, but it is so much cleaner sounding. As I mentioned before, male vocals really get pushed forward in the mix and are more pronounced. Everything sounds very realistic. Post back when you get it installed.


 
  
 OK, the LME49990 arrived this morning. A very nice looking little device, too...surface mounted, if I'm not mistaken. Very neat & clean.
  
 I've installed it in the HPA-1, hopefully correctly. In that regard, I have a lame/newbie question:
  
 -- Given that the OPA2134, as installed, has a physical notch in the end of the mount, which faces backwards (toward the back panel w/RCA ins & outs)
 -- And given that the LME49990 has no physical notch in the mount, but does have an outlined notch on one end (ie, outlined w/a silver line that runs the top mounted device)
  
*Was it correct for me to install this w/the outlined end facing backwards? *
  
 There are only 2 ways to plug this into the HPA-1: w/that outlined notch facing backwards; or w/it facing forward.
  
 Does this even matter? I'm a little reluctant to turn this on w/o an answer to this (lame) question first.
  
 Thanks!


----------



## DW75

pharmaboy said:


> OK, the LME49990 arrived this morning. A very nice looking little device, too...surface mounted, if I'm not mistaken. Very neat & clean.
> 
> I've installed it in the HPA-1, hopefully correctly. In that regard, I have a lame/newbie question:
> 
> ...


 

 Yes, you have installed it correctly. If you installed it backwards, you would not damage anything. You would just have no sound. How do you like it ?


----------



## Pharmaboy

dw75 said:


> Yes, you have installed it correctly. If you installed it backwards, you would not damage anything. You would just have no sound. How do you like it ?


 
  
 I'm relieved to hear I did this correctly!
  
 Now I'll put the HPA-1 in the system to burn in for several hours, then will listen to it tonight.
  
 More to follow!


----------



## Pharmaboy

dw75 said:


> Yes, you have installed it correctly. If you installed it backwards, you would not damage anything. You would just have no sound. How do you like it ?


 
  
 I hear music through it, so all is apparently well.
  
 I'm lucky to have a lot of flexibility in this system. My NOS 19 DAC has 2 RCA outputs, both live all the time, so I typically run 1 headphone amp as preamp/main (for past week that's been a new/used Audio GD SA-31SE, very interesting unit), w/the Lake People G109-A as 2nd HP amp.
  
 Just replaced the G109-A with the HPA-1 + connected sub + speakers to its outputs. So now the HPA-1 is powering the speakers & actually sounds pretty good (at least at low volume).
  
 In 3-4 hours I'll give it a listen on headphones.
  
 (life is good)


----------



## DW75

pharmaboy said:


> I hear music through it, so all is apparently well.
> 
> I'm lucky to have a lot of flexibility in this system. My NOS 19 DAC has 2 RCA outputs, both live all the time, so I typically run 1 headphone amp as preamp/main (for past week that's been a new/used Audio GD SA-31SE, very interesting unit), w/the Lake People G109-A as 2nd HP amp.
> 
> ...


 

 It is an amazing sounding opamp. The difference when compared to the stock OPA2134 is night and day. It is detailed, transparent, and very accurate. You will be impressed.


----------



## Pharmaboy

dw75 said:


> Hey, no problem, dude. You will be impressed. The first thing you will notice is the soundstage improvements, and the tighter bass. It really brings out the details in the music and gives you that head bobbing and foot tapping feel. I was immediately impressed with the instrument separation in various CDs I listened to yesterday. It is a rather revealing opamp. The bass on the opamp is very fast, accurate, and tight. There is no boomyness to it at all. The treble is very clean and articulate. The treble extends far better than the OPA2134, but it is so much cleaner sounding. As I mentioned before, male vocals really get pushed forward in the mix and are more pronounced. Everything sounds very realistic. Post back when you get it installed.


 
  
 I just listened to a wide assortment of familiar cuts (classical, jazz, top studio work by Donald Fagen, reggae, AfroPop), using headphones I'm intimately familiar with on the HPA-1, the Marantz MPH-2's.*
  
 Damn--I am VERY impressed! Had no idea that swapping opamps to the LME49990 could improve an amp so much (an amp I liked a lot to begin with).
  
 Everything you say is true: the treble is more extended and definitely more clear; the soundstaging is almost dramatically expanded and improved; and the bass is obviously tighter, less "boomy." I would add that the midrange is pulled forward a little and greatly expanded in detail (which also feeds into the greatly improved soundstaging & channel separation). I'm hearing all sorts of midrange details (things like drumming, the little percussive sound of guitar strings, and vocal timbre) that were buried pretty far down previously. Overall, the sound is more balanced, even across the frequency range, and flatter/less scooped in the midrange.
  
 But perhaps the best thing is that this opamp isn't really altering or degrading the basic sound profile of the HPA-1 (warm, euphonic, listenable--not a detail- or treble-cannon, just a very pleasurable listening experience); instead, it extends it & refines that sound. Same HP amp, but evolved, clarified, solidified. Different, but the same.
  
 These improvements are not minor. They're easy to hear. I find myself listening at a somewhat lower volume and hearing more...w/o realizing it, I was using the volume knob to "goose" more sound & clarity from the HPA-1 (something my tinnitus does not appreciate).
  
@DW75, I am in your debt for turning me onto this opamp!
  
 * highly recommended, relatively inexpensive, solid closed back design (1 of the 5+ rebrands of the ISK MDH9000; Marantz is my favorite)


----------



## DW75

Great to hear it worked out. Of all the opamps I have heard, my two favorites to date are the LME49990 and the AD8620. The LME49990 just offers an accurate presentation of the music. Detailed and neutral, with nice extension at both ends. I do not experience any fatigue at all with my HPA-2 paired with my DT880 Premium 250 Ohm using that opamp.


----------



## Thenewguy007

pharmaboy said:


> OK, the LME49990 arrived this morning. A very nice looking little device, too...surface mounted, if I'm not mistaken. Very neat & clean.
> 
> I've installed it in the HPA-1




How do you install it? Just pull out the old one & insert the new one?
Is it that simple?


----------



## Pharmaboy

thenewguy007 said:


> How do you install it? Just pull out the old one & insert the new one?
> Is it that simple?


 
  
 Yes and no. It really is that simple in practice (unplug the stock opamp; plug in the LME49990). However, these opamps are tiny (fingers look like trucks next to them) and not easy to grasp. I had the benefit of certain tools that made it much easier:
  
 -- *Jeweler's lamp:* it's a ring-shaped flourescent lamp w/a magnifying lens in the center (covered by a plastic flap/cover that can be left open, or closed). It's incredibly handy for small electronics tasks, also watch stuff like taking links out of stainless steel watch bracelets; swapping leather bands, etc.
  
 http://www.lampsplus.com/products/magnifying-clamp-on-desk-lamp__15330.html
  
 -- *Watchmaker's tweezers (set of 3):* 1 of this set opens to ~5/8" inch & has lightly serrated inner edges, also is a little sturdier on the business ends. This is what I used to carefully pry out the stock opamp and replace w/the new one.
  
 The LME49990 opamp is well made, a sturdy little thing. It perfectly plugs into the 8 holes in the circuit board (2 parallel rows of 4 holes each). BUT...you have to be certain that each tiny little prong is actually seated in its assigned hole, before pushing it securely in. That's where the magnifying lamp came in handy.
  
 You could do the same exact things using your fingers + a 3-4" wide magnifying glass--depending on how small your fingers are, and how good your vision is.


----------



## leeperry

thenewguy007 said:


> pull out the old one


 
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/190998454958


----------



## Pharmaboy

leeperry said:


> http://www.ebay.com/itm/190998454958


 
  
 Sweet!
  
 Didn't even know such a thing existed.


----------



## leeperry

Been in here for a while 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Anyway yes, 49990 brings mstage to a whole new level and next step would apparently be to bypass its DC decoupling input caps FWIR.....anyway, I got a spare mstage for crazy experiments that'll soon see some action goin'


----------



## Pharmaboy

leeperry said:


> Been in here for a while
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 FWIR? What's that?
  
 By "bypass DC coupling input caps," do you mean solder other/better caps to, or instead of, the existing capacitors? Or do you mean taking DC coupling caps out of the circult entirely?
  
 If it's the 2nd, I'm wondering if the HPA-1 would be able to pass DC on to headphones or powered speakers (not a pretty thought).


----------



## Mad Max

It would multiply the DC voltage AND THEN pass it on.
  
 But that's after removing both the big blue DC input caps _and_ the little green WIMAs before the opamp which serve to filter RFI.  The green WIMAs also block DC to some extent.
  
 In my case, all of my DACs have zero DC offset at their outputs, so I have nothing to worry about by removing the input caps, and the sound quality improvement rules.  As mentioned earlier in the thread, if you are unsure, just leave the input caps alone, better safe than sorry.


----------



## thyname

hi,
  
MATRIX M-Stage HPA-3B Class this was strongly recommended by Audeze CTO, as a cheaper alternative to Deckard.
  
 How does this pair with HD 800? Enough juice to drive them?
  
 Also, the 3U seems to be DAC / Amp combo, and the specs seem to be very close in terms of power. For the same price with 3B.


----------



## Mad Max

The Deckard amplifier looks like an HPA-3U with a different chassis that Matrix must be making for Audeze.  HPA-3B is the balanced version without an internal DAC.


----------



## lowrider007

I recently bought an original HPA-1 in mint condition for only £80, fell in love with it when I plugged my AKG's into it but with all my other lower impedance headphones Grado's, Sony's, IEMs etc I get a distinct humming noise, really gutted as I love the amp and it was my first ever proper headphone amp , is there anything I can do to fix this or is a bin job?


----------



## Spiral Out

lowrider007 said:


> I recently bought an original HPA-1 in mint condition for only £80, feel in love with it when I plugged my AKG's into but with all my other lower impedance headphones Grado's, Sony's, IEMs etc I get a distinct humming noise, really gutted as I love the amp and it was my first ever proper headphone amp , is there anything I can do to fix this or is a bin job?


 
 Try unplugging all your inputs and plug in your headphones and see if you still have the hum. It could be a ground loop.


----------



## Pharmaboy

lowrider007 said:


> I recently bought an original HPA-1 in mint condition for only £80, fell in love with it when I plugged my AKG's into it but with all my other lower impedance headphones Grado's, Sony's, IEMs etc I get a distinct humming noise, really gutted as I love the amp and it was my first ever proper headphone amp , is there anything I can do to fix this or is a bin job?


 
  
 I own 2 of these fine little units (gave 1 as a gift)--both purchased used, both work perfectly. I found the stock volume knob inadequate (because it was impossible to easily see what volume was), so I replaced it on both units. Perfect!
  
 Never experienced this humming you describe--and all my headphones until very recently were ~32 ohm, efficient closed back designs.
  
 What impedance are your AKG's? Which model?
  
 I recently tried a power-hungry 32 ohm planar headphone on the HPA-1 (ZMF Ori). Plenty of volume, no hum, but it didn't sound as good as the other headphones (and the Ori sounds spectacularly good on an amp w/lots of power). That was literally the only thing I ever did w/my HPA-1 that didn't totally work out...
  
 I only use the lowest of the 4 gain settings, BTW.


----------



## Spider fan

@lowrider007
  
 Maybe try lowering the gain if you arent at the lowest.


----------



## lowrider007

spiral out said:


> Try unplugging all your inputs and plug in your headphones and see if you still have the hum. It could be a ground loop.




It's works perfect with my akg k612pro, they've never sounded so good but I mainly bought the amp for my Grado 225e to tone it down a little but it hums with that and all my other easy to power cans, I've tried unplugging everything, still hums, I even took the opamp out and powered it on, still the same


----------



## Spiral Out

Try loosening the hex screw for the transformer on the bottom and re tightening it. I remember reading a few other people on this thread mentioning that fixed some noise issues they were having. Try searching this thread for "transformer". 
  
 Another thing to try is moving the amp to another room and see if you get noise . It may be an EMI issue.


----------



## lowrider007

I've tried loosening and tightening the hex screw but there is still hum there with my Grado's 225e's, Sony MDRv55's and IEMs etc, it doesn't increase with volume, it doesn't matter if I unplug all the RCA's, change dip switches etc, yet the AKG 612pro nothing at all, like I said I've fallen in love with this amp, I'm still glad I bought it because it has introduced me to a lot higher audio quality, I'm now considering grabbing a HPA-2 brand new for £145, can you guys give a me bit of assurance that these amps do work with sensitive headphones with no hum at all?


----------



## Spiral Out

The M-Stage has a 5 ohm output impedance. I don't think it is ideal with 32 ohm headphones. Ideally the headphone impedance to output impedance ratio should be 8:1. If you are going to use a lot of 32 ohm headphones, I would look at an amp with less than a 2 ohm output impedance. I have noticed that my M-Stage tends to be noisier with 32 ohm headphones. With my K7XX I hear no noise and a perfectly black background.
  
 Since you are looking for a new amp, maybe you could keep the M-Stage for use with your AKG's and get something with a lower output impedance with your low resistance headphones. 32 ohm headphones typically don't  require that much power so a super high powered/expensive amp isn't necessary.


----------



## Pharmaboy

spiral out said:


> The M-Stage has a 5 ohm output impedance. I don't think it is ideal with 32 ohm headphones. Ideally the headphone impedance to output impedance ratio should be 8:1. If you are going to use a lot of 32 ohm headphones, I would look at an amp with less than a 2 ohm output impedance. I have noticed that my M-Stage tends to be noisier with 32 ohm headphones. With my K7XX I hear no noise and a perfectly black background.
> 
> Since you are looking for a new amp, maybe you could keep the M-Stage for use with your AKG's and get something with a lower output impedance with your low resistance headphones. 32 ohm headphones typically don't  require that much power so a super high powered/expensive amp isn't necessary.


 
  
 Didn't realize any of this. Maybe it's better, because my experience runs contrary to yours: for awhile the HPA-1 was my go-to amp (+ system pre-amp), and the only headphones I listened to on it were 32 ohm, efficient designs (1 open, 2 closed back). They sounded terrific, and it got even better when I upgraded the opamp.
  
 I've never heard noise of any kind through the HPA-1...


----------



## Spiral Out

pharmaboy said:


> Didn't realize any of this. Maybe it's better, because my experience runs contrary to yours: for awhile the HPA-1 was my go-to amp (+ system pre-amp), and the only headphones I listened to on it were 32 ohm, efficient designs (1 open, 2 closed back). They sounded terrific, and it got even better when I upgraded the opamp.
> 
> I've never heard noise of any kind through the HPA-1...


 
 I haven't listened to many low impedance headphones with the M-Stage. The lowest I have owned is the Grado Sr-225, which is so old that I ended up giving to a friend. It really depends on the impedance curve on the headphones. If it is flat at all frequencies there should be no issue with the output impedance, other than a lower than optimal damping factor. Whether this is a big deal with the drivers being relatively small in headphones is debatable. At 32 ohm, the M-Stage can manage a 6:1 ratio, which may be fine. I'm kind of grasping at straws as to why his amp is making noise with lower impedance headphones. Probably shouldn't be happening and there may be something wrong with his amp.
  
 On another topic, I just installed a Burson V5 dual opamp in my HPA-1. It's soooo much better than the class A biased 627 I had in it before. I'm shocked how much of an improvement this opamp makes.


----------



## Andreeas1978

Mine used to have a hum because of the volume knob touching the case. You could also feel a subtile scratching when twisting. Changed the knob for aesthetic reasons also. Fixed. However, it has a slight different type of buzz with too low impedance iems. That's how it's built. And on USB it takes and amplifies some of the PC noises.


----------



## lowrider007

spiral out said:


> The M-Stage has a 5 ohm output impedance. I don't think it is ideal with 32 ohm headphones. Ideally the headphone impedance to output impedance ratio should be 8:1. If you are going to use a lot of 32 ohm headphones, I would look at an amp with less than a 2 ohm output impedance. I have noticed that my M-Stage tends to be noisier with 32 ohm headphones. With my K7XX I hear no noise and a perfectly black background.
> 
> Since you are looking for a new amp, maybe you could keep the M-Stage for use with your AKG's and get something with a lower output impedance with your low resistance headphones. 32 ohm headphones typically don't  require that much power so a super high powered/expensive amp isn't necessary.


 
  
 Thanks, well I'm definitely keeping the HPA-1 for my AKG's, I'm currently building a wooden stand for it to sit in sideways.
  
 Someone is selling a JDS Labs Element on my forum, how do you think that would fair with more sensitive cans?


----------



## Spiral Out

lowrider007 said:


> Thanks, well I'm definitely keeping the HPA-1 for my AKG's, I'm currently building a wooden stand for it to sit in sideways.
> 
> Someone is selling a JDS Labs Element on my forum, how do you think that would fair with more sensitive cans?


 
  
 The Element is supposed to be a very nice amp/dac combo. It should be excellent with your low impedance headphones.


----------



## leeperry

dw75 said:


> LME49990 just offers an accurate presentation of the music. Detailed and neutral, with nice extension at both ends.


 
  
 The funny thing is that it can easily be blamed for being too digital and too bright when it's actually making you hear the real ugliness in your source. I had to roll DAC's, IC cables(SPC all the way) and DAC PSU to make it really sing. I've tried to roll back my other opamps but they all lack resolution compared to 49990, don't shoot the messenger


----------



## thyname

leeperry said:


> The funny thing is that it can easily be blamed for being too digital and too bright when it's actually making you hear the real ugliness in your source. I had to roll DAC's, IC cables(SPC all the way) and DAC PSU to make it really sing. I've tried to roll back my other opamps but they all lack resolution compared to 49990, don't shoot the messenger :evil:




Sorry for the newbie question, but what does "rolling DAC" mean?


----------



## rikk009

thyname said:


> Sorry for the newbie question, but what does "rolling DAC" mean?


 
 In other words, he went to change the cloths but ended up changing the man.


----------



## Pharmaboy

thyname said:


> Sorry for the newbie question, but what does "rolling DAC" mean?


 
  
 trying one DAC after another


----------



## DW75

pharmaboy said:


> trying one DAC after another


 
  
 Hey Pharma, how is that LME49990 working out for you that I recommended ?


----------



## Pharmaboy

dw75 said:


> Hey Pharma, how is that LME49990 working out for you that I recommended ?


 
  
 It was in instant success--big improvement over stock opamp. I really liked the sound of the HPA-1 w/stock opamp; I wasn't unhappy at all, though I knew the "technicalities" were a bit vague in certain ways (bass could be boomy; soundstaging could be a bit imprecise & "generic" sounding.
  
 w/the LME49990, pretty much every part of the frequency range tightened up, became a little clearer & more impactful. Bass definitely got less boomy (though still very satisfying). Biggest change was in the midrange, where detail, note separation, and soundstaging instantly improved.
  
 I never knew an opamp change could improve sound that much, to be honest.
  
 I have a number of HP amps/preamps and don't happen to have the HPA-1 in the system at the moment. But I'll be rotating it back in soon. I love that little amp, and it's even better now!
  
 Thanks for a great suggestion!


----------



## DW75

pharmaboy said:


> It was in instant success--big improvement over stock opamp. I really liked the sound of the HPA-1 w/stock opamp; I wasn't unhappy at all, though I knew the "technicalities" were a bit vague in certain ways (bass could be boomy; soundstaging could be a bit imprecise & "generic" sounding.
> 
> w/the LME49990, pretty much every part of the frequency range tightened up, became a little clearer & more impactful. Bass definitely got less boomy (though still very satisfying). Biggest change was in the midrange, where detail, note separation, and soundstaging instantly improved.
> 
> ...


 

 That is great to hear. Glad it exceeded your expectations. It is an awesome opamp, no question.


----------



## Mad Max

rikk009 said:


> In other words, he went to change the cloths but ended up changing the man.


----------



## Praeceps

I've come across mentions of LME49990 on this thread a lot and I'm now thinking about upgrading my opamp to improve my sound. At the moment my setup is essenceST+m-stage+HD650.
  
 Where is the best place to get the LME49990? I live in the UK, is there anywhere they would sell it here? So far I have found this. Is this what I'd be after?
  
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1PC-DUAL-SOIC-LME49990-OP-AMP-MODULE-DIP8-/201562948955?hash=item2eee16855b:g:A9QAAOSw6oBXEnVs#rwid
  
 Sorry I'm a bit of a noobie for this.


----------



## DW75

praeceps said:


> I've come across mentions of LME49990 on this thread a lot and I'm now thinking about upgrading my opamp to improve my sound. At the moment my setup is essenceST+m-stage+HD650.
> 
> Where is the best place to get the LME49990? I live in the UK, is there anywhere they would sell it here? So far I have found this. Is this what I'd be after?
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yes, that is the one I have, as well as many others here. It is authentic. You will be impressed with the sound quality upgrade, without question.


----------



## Pharmaboy

praeceps said:


> I've come across mentions of LME49990 on this thread a lot and I'm now thinking about upgrading my opamp to improve my sound. At the moment my setup is essenceST+m-stage+HD650.
> 
> Where is the best place to get the LME49990? I live in the UK, is there anywhere they would sell it here? So far I have found this. Is this what I'd be after?
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yep--that's the one I bought. It's the real deal...nice improvements to my HPA-1.


----------



## Praeceps

pharmaboy said:


> Yep--that's the one I bought. It's the real deal...nice improvements to my HPA-1.


 
 Yeah I saw your review, that did help while looking thanks. 
 Yeah mine is HPA-1 too.


----------



## lowrider007

I'm in love with my HPA-1, it pairs so well with my K612, this thing is really going to make me want better cans, I'll be keeping this amp for a long time even if I run it alongside another one in the future, I'm wondering if the K712's will pair well with it also? I'm worried they might sound too dark with the HPA-1?


----------



## trybeingarun

Is LME49990 compatible with the new HPA-3U (apparently stock is LME49860)? I know nothing about op-amps, but am wondering if it's worth taking a shot.


----------



## Socratease

trybeingarun said:


> Is LME49990 compatible with the new HPA-3U (apparently stock is LME49860)? I know nothing about op-amps, but am wondering if it's worth taking a shot.


 
 Looks like the LME49990 may no longer be in production, I can't find it on TI's product web site.
  
 They're both in the same family of HiFi op-amps.  Small differences in performance specs between them, the 49990 has better noise and distortion figures, but the 49860 can handle higher voltages (up to +/-22V).  Unless you're feeling adventurous and don't mind the cost of the experiment, I'd leave the stock one alone.


----------



## Praeceps

The LME49990 is working great at the moment thanks. 
 I'm thinking of whether to buy some HD598 or at least test them. I've heard it can be more suitable for gaming and watching movies as they have a better soundstage.  (I've been using the HD650 for everything on the PC so far)
 Is the RCA out around the same as the headphone out? Does the volume control on the amp control the RCA out too? I'm thinking of getting a female 3.5mm to RCA for the HD598 to connect to the RCA out just out of convenience. Or would it just be best to swap headphones on the headphone connection?


----------



## Pharmaboy

praeceps said:


> The LME49990 is working great at the moment thanks.
> I'm thinking of whether to buy some HD598 or at least test them. I've heard it can be more suitable for gaming and watching movies as they have a better soundstage.  (I've been using the HD650 for everything on the PC so far)
> Is the RCA out around the same as the headphone out? Does the volume control on the amp control the RCA out too? I'm thinking of getting a female 3.5mm to RCA for the HD598 to connect to the RCA out just out of convenience. Or would it just be best to swap headphones on the headphone connection?


 
  
 Assuming you have the HPA-1 (not one of the later M Stage iterations), I can answer your questions:

The RCA out on back panel is intended for connection to powered speakers, an external amp, etc. It does convey the same information as the TRS headphone output--both are controlled by the volume pot.
The volume pot does control both the TRS headphone ouput and RCA L+R output pair. I used my HPA-1 as a headphone amp/preamp (driving powered speakers + sub) for many months...it's very good as a preamp.
Re connecting a headphone to the RCA L+R output pair, I have no idea if that would work. I would be leery of trying that, since it's possible the line-level RCA out has higher voltage than the headphone output (ie, both outputs are controlled by volume pot, but RCA out may have higher level to begin with). I'm just speculating.
If it were me, I'd just just swap headphones on the headphone output.
  
 Re HD598, I've never heard it, but I know 1 Head-Fi'er who uses it for gaming & really loves it.


----------



## Praeceps

Yeah it's the HPA-1.
 Okay yeah I'll just swap on the headphone output. Thanks.
  
 I have just noticed the Massdrop Senn PC37X. I don't think it's worth it now though as it's a long waiting list. I just missed a drop on it so the next drop won't be around until July. It's just as well though as the build quality is a bit lower the HD598 plus I already have a mic setup anyways. (Samson go mic attached to a flexible arm phone holder 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





)
  
 Edit: Another thought. What are the K702 like compared to the HD598s? I have heard the K702 is quite good for gaming.


----------



## trybeingarun

praeceps said:


> Yeah it's the HPA-1.
> Okay yeah I'll just swap on the headphone output. Thanks.
> 
> I have just noticed the Massdrop Senn PC37X. I don't think it's worth it now though as it's a long waiting list. I just missed a drop on it so the next drop won't be around until July. It's just as well though as the build quality is a bit lower the HD598 plus I already have a mic setup anyways. (Samson go mic attached to a flexible arm phone holder
> ...


 
 I have K7XX and hd598s. I don't play games but I use them with movies and songs. To me K7XX sounds much better than HD598se in terms of definition & overall sound quality. To me k7xx is an obvious pick. If K702 is anywhere close to K7xx it's better to pick K702


----------



## Praeceps

trybeingarun said:


> I have K7XX and hd598s. I don't play games but I use them with movies and songs. To me K7XX sounds much better than HD598se in terms of definition & overall sound quality. To me k7xx is an obvious pick. If K702 is anywhere close to K7xx it's better to pick K702


 
 Are the K7XXs just as comfortable as the hd598s? I know the hd598s will be comfortable seeing as I have no problems with the HD650 but I have heard before that the K702s can be hit and miss on comfort for some, especially for long sessions. But then again the K7XX has better ear foam so I guess that can make a difference.


----------



## Mad Max

K70x headband bumps are what put some people off.
 Luckily for me, my K701's bumps don't bother me.  I don't know why AKG even bothered to design the headband that way, the bumps are not soft enough for best comfort, I think.


----------



## trybeingarun

praeceps said:


> Are the K7XXs just as comfortable as the hd598s? I know the hd598s will be comfortable seeing as I have no problems with the HD650 but I have heard before that the K702s can be hit and miss on comfort for some, especially for long sessions. But then again the K7XX has better ear foam so I guess that can make a difference.


 
 K7xx earcups are huge & but a tiny bit shallow than hd598 so the top of my ear brushes against the driver, just barely though. To me both are equally comfortable and I slightly prefer k7xx over hd598. If you also have hd650 then you should definitely look into k7xx as they have different sound signatures. HD598 & 650 sound similar and you would probably never end up using 598s that much.


----------



## Praeceps

trybeingarun said:


> K7xx earcups are huge & but a tiny bit shallow than hd598 so the top of my ear brushes against the driver, just barely though. To me both are equally comfortable and I slightly prefer k7xx over hd598. If you also have hd650 then you should definitely look into k7xx as they have different sound signatures. HD598 & 650 sound similar and you would probably never end up using 598s that much.


 
 Okay cheers problem is that I don't know when the next massdrop will be. Hopefully they will do it soon. I've seen rumours that the red one might come up soon.


----------



## leeperry

praeceps said:


> LME49990 is working great


 
  
 Now that everyone's taken his 49990 pill, get ready to roll power cables oh yes......lipstick on a pig yadayada


----------



## rikk009

leeperry said:


> Now that everyone's taken his 49990 pill, get ready to roll power cables oh yes......lipstick on a pig yadayada


 
 Why not burson V5? I see everyone buying cheaper units like xduoo XD-05 and replacing Muses opamp with v5i and declaring it the best.


----------



## mickerru

Anyone used the mojo to feed the quattro amp to the hd800. Contemplating on getting the quattro as my first amp. Thanks


----------



## mickerru

Anyone who can advice which to buy. The quattro amp or mstage 3b to drive the hd800. I think both are good. Im just checking if the 3b is better than the quattro. Thanks


----------



## leeperry (May 3, 2017)

As much as rolling power cables helps, at the end of the day it's still using a cheapo IEC socket, most likely steel wires going to that molex connector, low grade pins going to the PCB and a hair-thin cheapo fuse so I think it would require some major modding to make a good power cable truly shine and I'm not keen on messing with such high voltage....OTOH an audio-grade fuse costs $3 and bypassing the DC filtering caps is very easy to do and provides a tremendous SQ improvement huh!

Rolling the HO socket would be great too, will be looking into that


----------



## rikk009 (Jun 6, 2017)

Got my hands on the HPA-1, this unit does sound good. Now have to jump on the LME bandwagon. Thanks for all the feedback on this thread.

Edit: Can't see the US seller selling the opamps anymore. The only other sellers are based in China.
Edit2: Sorry, he doesn't ship to my country.


----------



## rikk009

:Sigh: Had to buy this http://www.ebay.com/itm/181118392690?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT
Hope it's not a fake.


----------



## DW75

Sadly, buying from China, you are almost guaranteed it will be fake.


----------



## rikk009

DW75 said:


> Sadly, buying from China, you are almost guaranteed it will be fake.


How to ascertain that?


----------



## DW75

Most of the fakes come from China. Also, they usually list the opamps with a much lower price than the genuine sellers do. This is a genuine dual LME49990 at the link below. This is the one that most of us bought here who upgraded to the LME49990 in our M-Stage amps.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1PC-DUAL-SO...948955?hash=item2eee16855b:g:A9QAAOSw6oBXEnVs


----------



## rikk009

DW75 said:


> Most of the fakes come from China. Also, they usually list the opamps with a much lower price than the genuine sellers do. This is a genuine dual LME49990 at the link below. This is the one that most of us bought here who upgraded to the LME49990 in our M-Stage amps.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/1PC-DUAL-SO...948955?hash=item2eee16855b:g:A9QAAOSw6oBXEnVs


Yes I know but he doesn't ship to my country so have no other option. If anyone here knows some method to tell the difference it would be great.


----------



## bookemJ

Hey guys looking for some feedback on a problem I've been experiencing with my 2013 M-Stage HPA-1.  

Received it about 2 weeks ago from someone who hadn't been using it much.  Worked perfectly fine the first 3 days I got it then I put a Burson v5 opamp in it. Worked flawlessly for about 10 days until recently about 3 days ago I started hearing crackling/popping from my left headphone.  Figured it was a dirty headphone jack so I sprayed some contact cleaner in there and it went away for the night.  The next day powered it on and got the noise again so I repeated what I did the day before, this time the noise was still in the background sporadically, but I dealt with it since the noise was faint.

Yesterday same thing, rinse and repeated and it went away nearly all night til today, turned it on and this time it was much louder in the left cup and I haven't been able to get rid of it with the same methods so now I'm unsure what to do.

Read on this thread that tightening the bottom allen bolt might help but it stripped pretty easily since it was already in there so tight.  

If you guys have any ideas or suggestions I'd appreciate it, gonna swap out the opamp back to the stock one tonight and see if that changes anything.

Thanks in advance!


----------



## Chris J (Aug 10, 2017)

Looks like you tried (or will try) putting the original Op Amp back in, did that fix the problem?
Because that would be the first thing I would to.


----------



## Pharmaboy

bookemJ said:


> Hey guys looking for some feedback on a problem I've been experiencing with my 2013 M-Stage HPA-1.
> 
> Received it about 2 weeks ago from someone who hadn't been using it much.  Worked perfectly fine the first 3 days I got it then I put a Burson v5 opamp in it. Worked flawlessly for about 10 days until recently about 3 days ago I started hearing crackling/popping from my left headphone.  Figured it was a dirty headphone jack so I sprayed some contact cleaner in there and it went away for the night.  The next day powered it on and got the noise again so I repeated what I did the day before, this time the noise was still in the background sporadically, but I dealt with it since the noise was faint.
> 
> ...



I would do 2 things in this order:


----------



## Pharmaboy

bookemJ said:


> Hey guys looking for some feedback on a problem I've been experiencing with my 2013 M-Stage HPA-1.
> 
> Received it about 2 weeks ago from someone who hadn't been using it much.  Worked perfectly fine the first 3 days I got it then I put a Burson v5 opamp in it. Worked flawlessly for about 10 days until recently about 3 days ago I started hearing crackling/popping from my left headphone.  Figured it was a dirty headphone jack so I sprayed some contact cleaner in there and it went away for the night.  The next day powered it on and got the noise again so I repeated what I did the day before, this time the noise was still in the background sporadically, but I dealt with it since the noise was faint.
> 
> ...



(oops...1st reply sent too soon).

The 2 things I would do, in this order:
1. Try a different set of headphones + cable (assuming you have both). I don't expect the problem to go away; this is really just to rule out the headphone & cable as variables.
2. Assuming the problem remains w/new HP+cable, time to open it up and swap out the Burson for the original opamp. Make sure to visually inspect the Burson, ensure that it's fully seated in the circuit board (it probably is), Swapping opamps may "cure" the problem. 

I thought the Burson was a very tall opamp....pictures I saw made it seem doubtful it would even fit the HPA-1.

GOOD LUCK!


----------



## bookemJ

K got the original opamp in it right now, warming up no noise so far, notice it usually happens after the amp has hit peak operating temperature, so I'll keep you posted.

@Pharmaboy I forgot to put it in my post, but I've tried other cable and different headphone, same issue, also unplugged my dac too and it was still there.

Thanks for the quick responses guys btw!


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## bookemJ

Alright so I had the original opamp in there for about 30 minutes, no noise, swapped out to the v5 again and after an hour of no noise started hearing it again, so I took the v5 out and noticed its surprisingly hot to the touch, not untouchable but just hotter than the rest of the components inside. 

So I got the original 1 back in and we'll see what happens once its at peak temp.

Also to note when the v5 made noise it was completely silent til I unplugged my headphone and walked away then came back about 10 minutes later and the noise instantly was there as soon as I plugged my headphones back in.


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## leeperry

Measure DC offset, you'll most likely have a surprise.


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## Strangelove424

There are multiple accounts of Burson v5 overheating and frying themselves all over head-fi and the internet at large. Ridiculous z height makes implementation in many amps and dacs difficult or impossible, and complicates the heat problem. They stuffed a tiny daughter board into a tight enclosure with no ventilation. Burson must be nuts, especially for the price they charge for these ridiculous failing op amps. 

Also, Burson says their v5 are direct replacements for the popular lme49860, but have a close look at specs: lme49860 voltage range is +/- 2.5v to +/-22v, Burson v5 is +/- 3.5v to +/-15v. Lord knows how these Burson op amps are operating in the lme49860 circuits they're being dropped into. Possibly frying themselves slowly. It's wrong for Burson to suggest it can be used as a direct replacement for almost any op amp. What's important is how the op amp operates in the circuit, not the op amp itself. I've learned op amp rolling can cause a lot more harm than good.


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## bookemJ (Aug 11, 2017)

Strangelove424 said:


> There are multiple accounts of Burson v5 overheating and frying themselves all over head-fi and the internet at large. Ridiculous z height makes implementation in many amps and dacs difficult or impossible, and complicates the heat problem. They stuffed a tiny daughter board into a tight enclosure with no ventilation. Burson must be nuts, especially for the price they charge for these ridiculous failing op amps.
> 
> Also, Burson says their v5 are direct replacements for the popular lme49860, but have a close look at specs: lme49860 voltage range is +/- 2.5v to +/-22v, Burson v5 is +/- 3.5v to +/-15v. Lord knows how these Burson op amps are operating in the lme49860 circuits they're being dropped into. Possibly frying themselves slowly. It's wrong for Burson to suggest it can be used as a direct replacement for almost any op amp. What's important is how the op amp operates in the circuit, not the op amp itself. I've learned op amp rolling can cause a lot more harm than good.



Wish I heard about this before buying ha!  Seems the amp is running just fine on the stock opamp with about 4 hours of continuous use no issues.  Gonna swap back the burson and see how long it lasts, definitely starting to believe this to be an op amp problem.

I can only fit it in the HPA-1 with the top lid on if i take the DIP8 socket that came with the burson off and just plug it into the socket in the amp, which still only leaves about a cm of head room.

Is it possible to take the casing/cover off the burson, if so would that help it ventilate?


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## Strangelove424 (Aug 11, 2017)

No idea about removing the casing, but if you fiddle with it and find it's possible to remove it, I would definitely give it a shot. Aesthetics don't matter if the thing is so hot it has noise or failure issues, and if the cover is there for EMI shielding, you're still better off risking it unshieleded than deal with obvious overheating that leads to noise or ultimate failure. But the heat could be indicative of other major issues too, like out of spec voltage ranges or oscillation.


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## rikk009

bookemJ said:


> Wish I heard about this before buying ha!  Seems the amp is running just fine on the stock opamp with about 4 hours of continuous use no issues.  Gonna swap back the burson and see how long it lasts, definitely starting to believe this to be an op amp problem.
> 
> I can only fit it in the HPA-1 with the top lid on if i take the DIP8 socket that came with the burson off and just plug it into the socket in the amp, which still only leaves about a cm of head room.
> 
> Is it possible to take the casing/cover off the burson, if so would that help it ventilate?


I think Burson allows returns no question asked for a limited period.


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## leeperry (Aug 11, 2017)

All discrete opamps I tried gave outrageous DC offset in mstage and I was told that its design is really not meant to play nice with discrete ones, on the other hand AD797B still does the magic


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## bookemJ

Yea seems to be the Burson V5 that's causing the noise, worked fine for a night and a half with the case on the m-stage open and then put the top back on the m-stage and started making noise after another day and a half. 

Seems the Burson V5 isn't damaged or anything, runs fine without issue for hours and hours but once it gets too hot inside the m-stage it starts to make noise, keep in mind the room I'm in is usually 78-80 degrees.  It's probably just like you guys are saying, it's not running as optimally as it was designed to in the m-stage circuity.


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## leeperry

why don't you measure DC voltage on the headphones output using a DMM? I bet you'll see +15mVDC on each side.


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## Pharmaboy

Not sure if anyone's still reading this thread. Regardless, here goes...

After months of listening to other amp/preamps, I put my M Stage HPA-1 (2012 vintage w/LME49990 opamp installed) back in the system last week. Listened to it all week. Was again struck by how much sonic change the LME49990 opamp introduced to this design: the somewhat boomy bass and constrained treble have been transformed. The amp now sounds tight & impactful throughout the lower registers; and the upper midrange & treble are far flatter/clearer.

But w/careful listening via headphones, I can tell it's a little too much of a good thing, especially in upper midrange/treble. The added detail & accuracy came at the cost of a lilttle brightness/peakiness. This extremely "ear friendly" amp is now a little less so.

So based on various comments I read over the past 1-2 years about the OPA827 opamps, I just ordered a pair of these mounted on a brown dog adapter. Can't wait to install & hear this.

My recent experience has shown that, at least for the 2012 HPA-1, switching opamps can totally change the sound. My first effort was a pair of OPA627s. I desperately tried to like the changes in sound, but ultimately could not: the imaging got nailed down dead-center (on speakers & via headphones) and the sound overall became quite bright--despite otherwise noteworthy increases in detail & clarity.

Then the LME49990 opamp transformed the sound yet again...

So my hope is that the OPA827 maintain some of that clarity in the upper registers + the improved bass, while making the HPA-1 more "ear friendly" & musical again.

(more to follow)


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## mobayrasta

I still read this thread  I still use the M Stage (HPA-1) all the time.  I usually have my LCD2 rev.1 plugged in and the LME49990 really work well with them since they are a little dark. It is a great match for fun listening.  Gives the old LCDs a little more sparkle in the upper frequencies.


----------



## rikk009

Pharmaboy said:


> Not sure if anyone's still reading this thread. Regardless, here goes...
> 
> After months of listening to other amp/preamps, I put my M Stage HPA-1 (2012 vintage w/LME49990 opamp installed) back in the system last week. Listened to it all week. Was again struck by how much sonic change the LME49990 opamp introduced to this design: the somewhat boomy bass and constrained treble have been transformed. The amp now sounds tight & impactful throughout the lower registers; and the upper midrange & treble are far flatter/clearer.
> 
> ...


Yeah I am listening to it with LME dual 49990MA too. The opamp made it more dynamic and fast(decay) bass is tight. Earlier had single LME49860NA which was slower and bass was little flabby. I also got a single LME49990 to test but unfortunately either it's fake or doesn't work in this amp. Bought a OPA602BP too but it never reached me.


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## AltCtrl

I have the old Matrix-M-Stage 2010 v.2 -- is it worth upgrading to the new HPA-3B? My sound card is the Asus Essence STX. My headphones are: Beyer 1990 Pro, Beyer DT880 and soon to come HD6XX and Hifiman 4XX. How do I run it in balanced mode, my sound card only has RCA outputs, is it a big difference? What are some other good solid state amp choices for these headphones? Thanks!


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## Pharmaboy

Interesting questions. Here are my opinions (that's all they are).

*"is it worth upgrading to the new HPA-3B?" *
The HPA-2 and 3 series are said to sound rather different from the HPA-1: more detailed, "accurate," or what someone like me might hear as "bright." Is that a sound you want? If yes, then it's totally worth upgrading. But if you prefer warm, bassy sound (which is what you're getting from your HPA-1), then maybe a different amp would be better.

*"How do I run it in balanced mode, my sound card only has RCA outputs," *
There's a lot going on in this question. Balanced mode and the ways it can be accomplished have been the topic of many Head-Fi posts/threads, some of which got very contentious. Let's just say that if you have a balanced headphone amp, you can upgrade to a DAC with a balanced output to get the ultimate balanced implementation (ie, balanced signal to balanced headphone amp; powering balanced headphone). But you don't literally require a balanced signal from the DAC to hear the benefits of balanced. None of my DACs are balanced, yet I have 2 balanced headphone amps (Cavalli Liquid Carbon & Violectric V281) and listen to them w/great enjoyment/effect w/2 headphones for which I have balanced cables.

You don't say whether any of your current or future headphones are balanced (ie, have a balanced cable). Let's assume for a moment that at least one will--you can get a balanced cable and a single-ended cable for something like the HD6XX, and use whichever you want for a given amp. In that case, the questions become: what kind of sound do you like in an amp? And how much is your budget?

The balanced HPA-3B is certainly one option. I'm very fond of the Liquid Carbon, which has plenty of power and has a warm/bassy sound I really like w/great soundstating. The market for these has recently cratered after Cavalli left the business. You can pick up a used LC for ~$500 now (less than before). There are also several Cavalli LC variants offered through Massdrop (ie, LC-X; CHT) for even less money.

The single biggest takeaway I get from your post--and something you don't specifically ask about--concerns a DAC. You're apparently using a sound card for digital-to-analogue conversion. If so, you can almost certainly get more "bang for your buck," in terms of immediately obvious audio/sonic improvement, by getting a solid/inexpensive separate DAC. That's a pretty big topic; more opinions out there than one can count. But that would be my 1st order of business--getting a decent DAC. After that, maybe a balanced HP amp..

Massdrop has offered a more-than-decent standalone DAC (by Grace design). That drop is not active at the moment, but I'm guessing it will be active again very soon: 
https://www.massdrop.com/buy/massdrop-x-grace-design-standard-dac


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## AltCtrl

Pharmaboy said:


> Interesting questions. Here are my opinions (that's all they are).
> 
> *"is it worth upgrading to the new HPA-3B?" *
> The HPA-2 and 3 series are said to sound rather different from the HPA-1: more detailed, "accurate," or what someone like me might hear as "bright." Is that a sound you want? If yes, then it's totally worth upgrading. But if you prefer warm, bassy sound (which is what you're getting from your HPA-1), then maybe a different amp would be better.
> ...



Appreciate the info! Concerning the DAC, all my music is being played from my computer and the Asus Essence STX(and new STX II) are supposed to be hifi grade, but if I did get a separate DAC would I just plug it in using USB?

For the SS headphone amp I've got a budget of around ~$500, I don't have unlimited money and don't see myself spending $1000+ for a ~5% SQ improvement right now so I'm looking for the best bang for the buck. Ideally I'd want both a dark and bright SS amp, the Beyer 1990 Pro and DT880 are my favorite headphones so I do enjoy the bright sound signature but I also want to venture into other signatures which is why I'm getting the Hifiman 4XX(Planars) and HD6XX. I'll check out the Liquid Carbon but if the HPA-1 has a similar signature maybe I should go for a brighter amp to compliment it.

I know nothing about what balanced cables to get for these headphones and not sure I have the budget for it so I might stick to unbalanced, again if its less than a 5% SQ improvement it's not worth it to me as of now.


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## Pharmaboy

AltCtrl said:


> Appreciate the info! Concerning the DAC, all my music is being played from my computer and the Asus Essence STX(and new STX II) are supposed to be hifi grade, but if I did get a separate DAC would I just plug it in using USB?
> 
> For the SS headphone amp I've got a budget of around ~$500, I don't have unlimited money and don't see myself spending $1000+ for a ~5% SQ improvement right now so I'm looking for the best bang for the buck. Ideally I'd want both a dark and bright SS amp, the Beyer 1990 Pro and DT880 are my favorite headphones so I do enjoy the bright sound signature but I also want to venture into other signatures which is why I'm getting the Hifiman 4XX(Planars) and HD6XX. I'll check out the Liquid Carbon but if the HPA-1 has a similar signature maybe I should go for a brighter amp to compliment it.
> 
> I know nothing about what balanced cables to get for these headphones and not sure I have the budget for it so I might stick to unbalanced, again if its less than a 5% SQ improvement it's not worth it to me as of now.



The way you explain this, the balanced HPA-3 might be a really good option for you. It would contrast vs the warm, bassy sound of your HPA-1; and it would allow either balanced or single-ended headphones to be used. You have some headphones on the way that can really do detail and soundstaging. It would be nice to have two very different amps to play with on those.

Just read a very complimentary review of the HPA-3B from a trusted site. Maybe I judged it too quickly. This thing has a ton of power and apparently didn't favor treble the way I thought it did:
http://headphone.guru/the-impressive-m-stage-hpa-3b-balanced-headphone-amplifier/

If you have an amp w/balanced output, it's well worth listening to it via that output, in my experience. You typically get a little more gain, distinctly better soundstaging, and sometimes a more spacious, relaxed feeling (headphone dependent). I have a couple headphones that I can listen to balanced or single-ended. Usually I prefer balanced. 

Balanced headphone cables need not be terribly expensive. Aftermarket cables for Sennheiser & Hifiman tend to be more expensive than generic single-entry 3.5mm, but still not insane. Here's an ebay balanced cable for HD600/650/6XX ($49): 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/9-ft-SENNH...122770526191?_trksid=p2349526.m4383.l4275.c10

Here's a balanced cable for HiFiman: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4pi...expid=84c00fd8-02e5-41a2-aa29-3bbabf2a4a15-16


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## DW75

You should take a look at the Gustard H10. It is great sounding, and has tons of power. It is a full step up in quality from the M-Stage HPA-1 and HPA-2. You will be impressed.


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## Pharmaboy

I've researched the H10 on a number of occasions. A lot of people seriously like this amp.

My only quibble w/it is no balanced output for headphones. It has balanced inputs from DAC/other sources; but no balanced out to HPs. That's kind of a deal-breaker for me personally.


----------



## DW75

I think people are putting way too much emphasis on balanced being a must. Tons of awesome headphones exist that use a standard 1/4 inch or 1/8 inch connector. This is just my opinion though. I would not let it stop me from buying the H10. It is an awesome amp. Look at the power and dynamic range on it.

Output power: 570 mW (600 ohm load); 2200 mW (100 ohms); 2700 mW (50 ohms); 2000 mW (32 ohms)
Dynamic range: 128dB (A-weighted)
Crosstalk:-110db (1kHz)

It is a full tier above the M-Stage HPA-2. If I was going to upgrade, this would be on my short list for sure.


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## AltCtrl (Oct 30, 2017)

I've looked at the Gustard H10 before as well and i looks like a solid amp.. I do want to delve into balanced cables though, where do you get custom ones that are either braided and flexible and not as heavy? Massdrop actually has some balanced cables from Venture Electronics now that I'm considering for the HD6XX and Hifi 4XX. I'm also looking at the schiit Jotunheim amp. So many choices!


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## rikk009

I won't say HPA-1 with LME49990 has warm at all. And from what I hear don't consider H10 as a worthy upgrade either. Also, from what I hear Jot and HPA-3b is very much similar sounding so HPA-3b is better deal.


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## Pharmaboy

Update: Just received the dual OPA827AID opamps and put them into the HPA-1 in place of the LME49990. I got sound in both channels--a good sign, since it probably means I installed this browndog adapter in the right orientation.

Will let it cook 3-4 days, then give a listen...more to follow.


----------



## AltCtrl

Pharmaboy said:


> The way you explain this, the balanced HPA-3 might be a really good option for you. It would contrast vs the warm, bassy sound of your HPA-1; and it would allow either balanced or single-ended headphones to be used. You have some headphones on the way that can really do detail and soundstaging. It would be nice to have two very different amps to play with on those.
> 
> Just read a very complimentary review of the HPA-3B from a trusted site. Maybe I judged it too quickly. This thing has a ton of power and apparently didn't favor treble the way I thought it did:
> http://headphone.guru/the-impressive-m-stage-hpa-3b-balanced-headphone-amplifier/
> ...


I've been researching a bit for the ultimate computer audio system for under a $1000 that's a worthy successor to my STX sound card and HPA-1. I've read that an external DAC usually produces better sound than a sound card and I've read some buzz about the new Burson Play that just came out. I'll reserve judgement as I read more reviews but generally I've read that a all in one AMP/PRE-AMP/DAC like the Play or HPA-3U+ for example doesn't produce as good a sound as a separate dedicated DAC and AMP. Is that normally the case?

What do you think about this chain: Computer USB --> Burson Play --> HPA-3B --> Balanced Senn HD6XX/Hifi 4XX/Beyer 1990. Is the Burson Play overkill in that chain? Won't the sound change drastically going from the Burson Play to the HPA-3B unless i use the same op-amps in both?

I'm pretty set on the HPA-3B just looking for a good DAC to go with it.


----------



## Pharmaboy

AltCtrl said:


> I've been researching a bit for the ultimate computer audio system for under a $1000 that's a worthy successor to my STX sound card and HPA-1. I've read that an external DAC usually produces better sound than a sound card and I've read some buzz about the new Burson Play that just came out. I'll reserve judgement as I read more reviews but generally I've read that a all in one AMP/PRE-AMP/DAC like the Play or HPA-3U+ for example doesn't produce as good a sound as a separate dedicated DAC and AMP. Is that normally the case?
> 
> What do you think about this chain: Computer USB --> Burson Play --> HPA-3B --> Balanced Senn HD6XX/Hifi 4XX/Beyer 1990. Is the Burson Play overkill in that chain? Won't the sound change drastically going from the Burson Play to the HPA-3B unless i use the same op-amps in both?
> 
> I'm pretty set on the HPA-3B just looking for a good DAC to go with it.



All-in-ones can be terrific values. I own a very inexpensive one (FiiO E10K) that is far better than its pricetag would suggest (~$75). I also owned a far more powerful & fully features all-in-one by Audio GD (NFB 15.32 amp/preamp/DAC), which again was far better than its price tag (~$300 used). There are some extremely good (and far more costly) all-in-ones out there: Auralic Taurus, Mytek Brooklyn, Audio GD Master 7, etc. I certainly have nothing against all-in-ones. My biggest concern is that you be able to get DAC signal out to a separate amp (if you feel like doing that); or get a separate DAC's signal into the all-in-one, allowing it to function as amp only. Some allow this flexibility; others do not.

It's hard to make generalities here, given the wide variation in cost & design objectives of various all-in-ones. But I'd sum it up by saying sound quality, per se, is not likely to be your limiting factor w/an all-in-one, unless it's very inexpensive and low powered (which neither the Play nor HPA-3U+ really are). The limiting factor w/the all-in-one could be its flexibility & features allowing it to be used as DAC only, amp only, etc...which may not even matter to you, but "upgrade-itis" is the illness we all get, sooner or later.

Re your chain, my only question/confusion concerns the Play. Hard to be sure w/o seeing specs & photos, but it may not allow itself to be used as a DAC only. It has a preamp out, but I'm unclear whether that conveys only the signal that has come through DAC conversion vs something else. Just checked Burson for a manual, but none available. If the Play could be used as DAC only, your chain might sound rather amazing.


----------



## trybeingarun (Nov 2, 2017)

AltCtrl said:


> I have the old Matrix-M-Stage 2010 v.2 -- is it worth upgrading to the new HPA-3B? My sound card is the Asus Essence STX. My headphones are: Beyer 1990 Pro, Beyer DT880 and soon to come HD6XX and Hifiman 4XX. How do I run it in balanced mode, my sound card only has RCA outputs, is it a big difference? What are some other good solid state amp choices for these headphones? Thanks!


My HPA-3u+ sounds too dark with 6xx, so i definitely won't recommend that combo (I don't have the 3B version though). I don't have the 4xx, but I have the 560 which sounds good with it. I don't have a great opinion about my hpa-3u+ as a dac because it sounds harsh, images poorly and is a little shrill. The amp section is really good, when I use it in combination with my Aune X1s as a dac, though still having a dark sound. If this is going to be your only amp and you're primarily going to use it with the 6xx i would say be wary; audition the setup if possible first, before making a decision.
I have given my 3u+ for modding (as explained in this post), which i am hoping will improve the unit. If you go through the whole thread there are posts about how to mod the hpa-3b unit, in case you're interested.


----------



## AltCtrl (Nov 2, 2017)

trybeingarun said:


> My HPA-3u+ sounds too dark with 6xx, so i definitely won't recommend that combo (I don't have the 3B version though). I don't have the 4xx, but I have the 560 which sounds good with it. I don't have a great opinion about my hpa-3u+ as a dac because it sounds harsh, images poorly and is a little shrill. The amp section is really good, when I use it in combination with my Aune X1s as a dac, though still having a dark sound. If this is going to be your only amp and you're primarily going to use it with the 6xx i would say be wary; audition the setup if possible first, before making a decision.
> I have given my 3u+ for modding (as explained in this post), which i am hoping will improve the unit. If you go through the whole thread there are posts about how to mod the hpa-3b unit, in case you're interested.


I've heard similar things about the hpa-3u+'s DAC which is why I'm wary of all-in-one's at least for under $1000 but maybe it's just a bad pairing with the HD6XX. I don't mind swapping opamps but I would rather make a good buying decision than have to swap other internals out to make it sound good. It's probably just a fact in the industry to cheap out on components to keep manufacturing costs down which is why there's such a big difference when swapping out certain components. I'm talking med-fi to hi-fi now not summit-fi.

I contacted Burson and they said the preamp output on the Play can be used as a DAC output. They also said the preamp output's sound is only affected by the 3 dual opamps inside the Play. I'm still curious how the sound changes going from the Play to the HPA-3B for example since they both use different opamps and if using the same opamps in both your preamp and amp is a wise move. Burson talks about this impedance mismatching on their website and even sells a Cable+ to help with it.


----------



## trybeingarun

I'm not sure what your idea was, but getting a HE-4xx when you have a Hd6xx doesn't look like the best of decisions. What I mean by that is, the 6xx will scale with better equipment, but 4xx may not. So why don't you buy a bottlehead crack or something that goes really well with 6xx, and use 4xx straight out of your PC output, may be. That way you will have at least one awesome setup instead of having 2 mediocre possibilities (whatever amp you buy + 6xx or 4xx). If you want a SS balanced amp then jotunheim (I don't own one) also seems to be a good pair with 6xx, but it might be a little bright with 4xx.
If you don't want to make such a committal decision and save some money then you can buy a cheaper amp. I have a nuforce ha-200 and it works pretty decent with the 6xx. Doesn't have enough power for my HE560s though, and gives only low volume. But whatever I hear from it is impressive. It has a much wider soundstage than my hpa-3u+, it's also quite relaxing and not intense (edgy) and is overall a pleasurable listen. I got it from massdrop at a pretty cheap price. You could even give the magni3 a shot.


----------



## AltCtrl

trybeingarun said:


> I'm not sure what your idea was, but getting a HE-4xx when you have a Hd6xx doesn't look like the best of decisions. What I mean by that is, the 6xx will scale with better equipment, but 4xx may not. So why don't you buy a bottlehead crack or something that goes really well with 6xx, and use 4xx straight out of your PC output, may be. That way you will have at least one awesome setup instead of having 2 mediocre possibilities (whatever amp you buy + 6xx or 4xx). If you want a SS balanced amp then jotunheim (I don't own one) also seems to be a good pair with 6xx, but it might be a little bright with 4xx.
> If you don't want to make such a committal decision and save some money then you can buy a cheaper amp. I have a nuforce ha-200 and it works pretty decent with the 6xx. Doesn't have enough power for my HE560s though, and gives only low volume. But whatever I hear from it is impressive. It has a much wider soundstage than my hpa-3u+, it's also quite relaxing and not intense (edgy) and is overall a pleasurable listen. I got it from massdrop at a pretty cheap price. You could even give the magni3 a shot.


I bought the HE-4XX as my first planar headphone, I was considering the HE560's but didn't want to break the bank at the time. I also own the Beyer 1990 Pro's and DT880's 600ohm which scale with better equipment. I already own a good tube amp so I'm only looking for a balanced SS amp and dac for under $1k to replace my STX sound card and compliment my HPA-1.

I'm ready to make a committal best bang for the buck decision.. so far I'm loooking at:

DAC/AMP: Burson Play, Schiit Jotunheim, Emotiva DC-1
AMP's: HPA-3B


----------



## AltCtrl

Pharmaboy said:


> All-in-ones can be terrific values. I own a very inexpensive one (FiiO E10K) that is far better than its pricetag would suggest (~$75). I also owned a far more powerful & fully features all-in-one by Audio GD (NFB 15.32 amp/preamp/DAC), which again was far better than its price tag (~$300 used). There are some extremely good (and far more costly) all-in-ones out there: Auralic Taurus, Mytek Brooklyn, Audio GD Master 7, etc. I certainly have nothing against all-in-ones. My biggest concern is that you be able to get DAC signal out to a separate amp (if you feel like doing that); or get a separate DAC's signal into the all-in-one, allowing it to function as amp only. Some allow this flexibility; others do not.
> 
> It's hard to make generalities here, given the wide variation in cost & design objectives of various all-in-ones. But I'd sum it up by saying sound quality, per se, is not likely to be your limiting factor w/an all-in-one, unless it's very inexpensive and low powered (which neither the Play nor HPA-3U+ really are). The limiting factor w/the all-in-one could be its flexibility & features allowing it to be used as DAC only, amp only, etc...which may not even matter to you, but "upgrade-itis" is the illness we all get, sooner or later.
> 
> Re your chain, my only question/confusion concerns the Play. Hard to be sure w/o seeing specs & photos, but it may not allow itself to be used as a DAC only. It has a preamp out, but I'm unclear whether that conveys only the signal that has come through DAC conversion vs something else. Just checked Burson for a manual, but none available. If the Play could be used as DAC only, your chain might sound rather amazing.


I read back in the thread you had success w/ the LME49990 opamps in your HPA-1. How many do you need? Do you think these opamps would work in the HPA-3B as well?

I wonder how Burson opamps would sound but I read that they're prone to overheating.


----------



## Pharmaboy

AltCtrl said:


> I read back in the thread you had success w/ the LME49990 opamps in your HPA-1. How many do you need? Do you think these opamps would work in the HPA-3B as well?
> 
> I wonder how Burson opamps would sound but I read that they're prone to overheating.



I did a lot of reading about the HPA-3B in the past couple days--but now it's a little difficult to remember where certain comments/statements were. I'm pretty sure the discussion of opamps is in the dedicated Head-Fi thread for this amp: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/int...ge-hpa-3u-and-hpa-3b-review-to-follow.770610/

If I remember correctly, there are more opamps in the signal path in the HPA-3B than in the HPA-1. The HPA-3B is a bigger, stronger, very differently designed amp than the HPA-1. It looks like a balanced version of the Audeze Deckard (Matrix OEM'd the Deckard, and it shows). All to say I'm not totally sure how opamps are swapped in the HPA-3B (how many; where on board; etc). The thread above did contain numerous comments to the effect that Burson opamps don't work w/the HPA-3B due to operating voltage being above their threshold, leading to thermal instability.

Yes, I did get very good results from the LME49990 opamps in my HPA-1, which was transformed by these opamps: but w/close listening recently I realized the sonic goodies that come w/the LME49990s (dramatically improved bass tightness/impact vs the relatively boomy/sloppy bass w/stock opamps; greatly improved resolution/clarity, top to bottom; and greatly improved soundstaging) came at the expense of a little glare/peakiness in upper midrange/lower treble--which most definitely was not present in the stock HPA-1. I'm very sensitive to even a little glare, so I decided to try something else.

So 3-4 days ago I swapped the LME49990 opamps (2 surface-mounted to browndog adapter) for OPA827AID opamps (2 surface-mounted on browndog adapter). I'm still burning in the OPA827s. Did very brief/informal listening last night and the amp sounded extremely good. Not yet ready to report details (it was just 10" of headtime at end of long workday) but will be doing that very soon.

From what I can tell by reading this thread, LME49990s are no longer available, so not sure how you can procure any, in the event you can figure out how to swap opamps in the HPA-3B.


----------



## trybeingarun

AltCtrl said:


> I bought the HE-4XX as my first planar headphone, I was considering the HE560's but didn't want to break the bank at the time. I also own the Beyer 1990 Pro's and DT880's 600ohm which scale with better equipment. I already own a good tube amp so I'm only looking for a balanced SS amp and dac for under $1k to replace my STX sound card and compliment my HPA-1.
> 
> I'm ready to make a committal best bang for the buck decision.. so far I'm loooking at:
> 
> ...


Not sure if you're aware, but Emotiva DC-2 is in development and might be out in the next 6 months, if you're willing to wait that long. Schiit Jotunheim can be bought as an amp only. General advice, take it a little slow; try to build one great setup instead of having a lot of 'okay' setups and improve just one component at a time; at least that's what I found out after getting a lot of avg. sounding 'affordable' equipment. Good tech is never going to go away; something new is always going to keep coming.

If you have a good tube amp then try to get the Emotiva, which has a nice balanced dac and allows you to improve your setup over time and you can also use it with your tube amp today. I'm sure all the options you're looking for are individually great, but how synergistic will it be with your equipment also matters.


----------



## AltCtrl

Pharmaboy said:


> I did a lot of reading about the HPA-3B in the past couple days--but now it's a little difficult to remember where certain comments/statements were. I'm pretty sure the discussion of opamps is in the dedicated Head-Fi thread for this amp: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/int...ge-hpa-3u-and-hpa-3b-review-to-follow.770610/
> 
> If I remember correctly, there are more opamps in the signal path in the HPA-3B than in the HPA-1. The HPA-3B is a bigger, stronger, very differently designed amp than the HPA-1. It looks like a balanced version of the Audeze Deckard (Matrix OEM'd the Deckard, and it shows). All to say I'm not totally sure how opamps are swapped in the HPA-3B (how many; where on board; etc). The thread above did contain numerous comments to the effect that Burson opamps don't work w/the HPA-3B due to operating voltage being above their threshold, leading to thermal instability.
> 
> ...


I thought Matrix OEM'd Lehmann, or was that just with the HPA-1? I plan on keeping my HPA-1 even if I get the HPA-3B, it's been going strong for so many years now and I like the sound. I assume by glare you mean treble sparkle like the DT880 headphone has? I find that sparkle to be quite addictive actually and it's the reason I love the DT880 so much. It's to bad the LME49990 got discontinued, I'll have to try some others.


----------



## Pharmaboy

AltCtrl said:


> I thought Matrix OEM'd Lehmann, or was that just with the HPA-1? I plan on keeping my HPA-1 even if I get the HPA-3B, it's been going strong for so many years now and I like the sound. I assume by glare you mean treble sparkle like the DT880 headphone has? I find that sparkle to be quite addictive actually and it's the reason I love the DT880 so much. It's to bad the LME49990 got discontinued, I'll have to try some others.



Yes, to me "glare" means a slight (or not so slight) elevation in the upper midrange & lower treble. I'm extremely sensitive to that: it makes listening much harder. However, many people feel quite differently about this, as your comments illustrate. 

I love my HPA-1. Once I got that lame volume knob replaced, it's a solid little citizen in my stable of amps. I actually had 2 of them (same late 2012 vintage)...gave away the other as part of a gift desktop audio system for my brother.

I'll have more comments by end of weekend about the OPA827 opamps in the HPA-1. So far, so good!


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## AltCtrl (Nov 4, 2017)

I found a mint HPA-3B on the used market for $280 and jumped on it. Excited to see how it sounds! Now I just need a DAC.. I'm still leaning towards the Burson Play w/ V6 Vivid op-amps. I've also heard a lot of hype about the Gustard X20 DAC. So hard to decide..

As far as the Emotiva I think I'll wait and see what happens with the DC-2.


----------



## Pharmaboy

AltCtrl said:


> I found a mint HPA-3B on the used market for $280 and jumped on it. Excited to see how it sounds! Now I just need a DAC.. I'm still leaning towards the Burson Play w/ V6 Vivid op-amps. I've also heard a lot of hype about the Gustard X20 DAC. So hard to decide..
> 
> As far as the Emotiva I think I'll wait and see what happens with the DC-2.



Really interested in your comments on sound of the HPA-3B. I'm interested in this amp, though the last thing I need is another amp (!) ... it's an addiction.


----------



## Pharmaboy

*Update on my M Stage Matrix HPA-1:* Finished burning in the new dual OPA827AID opamps (~100 hrs) and have done some focused listening to a wide range of .wav files (R&B, funk, pop, classical). I'm really happy with the sound I'm getting out of this amp now:

The borderline/too much glare in upper midrange/lower treble I was getting w/the LME49990 opamps is gone. Now that part of the frequency range sounds very even w/no apparent dips or elevations. The upper registers of the HPA-1 sound quite pleasing now: plenty of resolution & detail (far more than w/stock opamps), but presented in a musical, relaxed way.
Just as the LME49990s did, the OPA827s greatly improve the somewhat boomy bass of the stock amp/opamps. The HPA-1 was always a bassy amp, and I enjoyed the bass; still, I knew it could be tighter & the notes more distinct. And now the bass is really solid/tighter, with good impact: fun listening, as always, but "the technicalities" definitely got better vs stock.
My other sorta/kinda problem w/the LME49990s was that the soundstaging went from sort of vague/indistinct (stock opamps) to the total opposite--very distinct placement of voices, instruments, etc in space--but a little too tight & clustered between channels, not quite as spread out as I get from other amps. Well, the OPA827s really get soundstaging right. On my Fidelio X2s, this amp's soundstaging is now well above average IMO. It's pretty wide, not too distinct or too diffuse: everything's in its place, but again, it's quite musical and natural.
I was apprehensive that the noticeable benefits of the LME49990s vs stock opamps might disappear, even if the issues I had with their sound were ameliorated by the changing to OPA827s. But as it turns out, the OPA827 do just about everything right. I like this sound signature a lot. I can definitely recommend these opamps to others who cherish their HPA-1s, as I do, and want to improve on the sound of the stock opamps.


----------



## AltCtrl (Nov 8, 2017)

Pharmaboy said:


> *Update on my M Stage Matrix HPA-1:* Finished burning in the new dual OPA827AID opamps (~100 hrs) and have done some focused listening to a wide range of .wav files (R&B, funk, pop, classical). I'm really happy with the sound I'm getting out of this amp now:
> 
> The borderline/too much glare in upper midrange/lower treble I was getting w/the LME49990 opamps is gone. Now that part of the frequency range sounds very even w/no apparent dips or elevations. The upper registers of the HPA-1 sound quite pleasing now: plenty of resolution & detail (far more than w/stock opamps), but presented in a musical, relaxed way.
> Just as the LME49990s did, the OPA827s greatly improve the somewhat boomy bass of the stock amp/opamps. The HPA-1 was always a bassy amp, and I enjoyed the bass; still, I knew it could be tighter & the notes more distinct. And now the bass is really solid/tighter, with good impact: fun listening, as always, but "the technicalities" definitely got better vs stock.
> ...


So you just need 2 OPA827AID's and a browndog adapter to do the mod? I'll admit the stock HPA-1 makes headphones like my Fidelio X2's sound a little to boomy and as someone else mentioned it does the same to the HD650 which makes sense. However my Beyers sound great on the HPA-1 so it's all about finding that balance.

Have you tried any Hifiman products? I find their bass to be very distinctive and even addictive at least that's what I find with my RE-600 IEM's, just be careful with the build quality of some of their products. I'm looking forward to trying their Planars.

I'm actually looking at more compact amps and dacs like the Schiit Mimby + Magni 3 and a used Chord 2Qute. Would be interesting to do a comparison. My HPA-3B is still in the mail it should be here by the end of the week.


----------



## Pharmaboy

AltCtrl said:


> So you just need 2 OPA827AID's and a browndog adapter to do the mod? I'll admit the stock HPA-1 makes headphones like my Fidelio X2's sound a little to boomy and as someone else mentioned it does the same to the HD650 which makes sense. However my Beyers sound great on the HPA-1 so it's all about finding that balance.
> 
> Have you tried any Hifiman products? I find their bass to be very distinctive and even addictive at least that's what I find with my RE-600 IEM's, just be careful with the build quality of some of their products. I'm looking forward to trying their Planars.
> 
> I'm actually looking at more compact amps and dacs like the Schiit Mimby + Magni 3 and a used Chord 2Qute. Would be interesting to do a comparison. My HPA-3B is still in the mail it should be here by the end of the week.



Yep: 2 OPA827s attached (surface mounted above & below) a browndog adapter: https://02b9b87.netsolstores.com/search.aspx?find=020302

The HPA-1 is really an interesting amp. With stock opamps, it doesn't sound particularly boomy on headphones that have tight bass to begin with. But if the headphone has relatively loose/undamped bass to begin with (like my Fidelio X2s), it can be a little uncontrolled. 

I actually heard just as much change from opamp rolling in my powered monitors + sub, on which:

The stock opamps sounded musical/ear friendly, but a little boomy
The LME49990s sounded very different: very controlled/deep/tight bass; better, more focused soundstage; more resolution; but also, some brightness in upper midrange/lower treble.
The OPA827s kind of average the sound of stock opamps + LME49990s: no brightness/glare anywhere, but good soundstaging, solid soundstaging and bass.
The only thing I can't be totally sure of (because I can't directly compare the LME49990s vs OPA827 opamps w/o taking the cover off and swapping them out--the OPA827 might (just might) be a little lighter in absolute low reach & impact of bass. Hard to be sure. Still, it sounds terrific, the best of all the opamps I've heard on the HPA-1.

I've never heard a Hifiman headphone. I know a lot of people like various models a lot.

The best bass I ever heard came from 3 headphones, 2 of which I own:

Best of all: ZMF Eikon (plenty of sub-bass plus flat/powerful bass throughout entire bass range, not affecting midrange at all
Next-best: a tie between the ZMF Ori (planar bass is kind of awesome--different from dynamic in ways I'm not sure I could describe)
and the E-Mu Teaks, which on the right amp hit like a sledge hammer
Really interested in what you have to say about the HPA-3. I have too many amps already, but amp lust is still there (sadly).


----------



## rikk009

AltCtrl said:


> I found a mint HPA-3B on the used market for $280 and jumped on it. Excited to see how it sounds! Now I just need a DAC.. I'm still leaning towards the Burson Play w/ V6 Vivid op-amps. I've also heard a lot of hype about the Gustard X20 DAC. So hard to decide..
> 
> As far as the Emotiva I think I'll wait and see what happens with the DC-2.


For that price Schiit DACs can be pretty good, also Audio GD if looking for Chinese product?


----------



## Pharmaboy

rikk009 said:


> For that price Schiit DACs can be pretty good, also Audio GD if looking for Chinese product?



Just read a very positive review of a JDS Labs DAC ("El DAC") I'd buy in a heartbeat, if I wasn't already DAC'd-to-the-max: 
https://www.headfonia.com/review-jds-labs-el-dac-amp/

I'm 100% into multi-bit at this point, not delta-sigma. But here's a delta-sigma DAC said to sound not bright, though having sufficient detail/resolution (big +) and to have a pleasing fullness/impact in lower registers/midrange (huge +, very difficult to find this quality in any DAC).


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## rikk009

Pharmaboy said:


> Just read a very positive review of a JDS Labs DAC ("El DAC") I'd buy in a heartbeat, if I wasn't already DAC'd-to-the-max:
> https://www.headfonia.com/review-jds-labs-el-dac-amp/
> 
> I'm 100% into multi-bit at this point, not delta-sigma. But here's a delta-sigma DAC said to sound not bright, though having sufficient detail/resolution (big +) and to have a pleasing fullness/impact in lower registers/midrange (huge +, very difficult to find this quality in any DAC).


$250 seem okish for what it seem to offer. AKM 4490 does sound good in the mids specially. I am also getting more into R2Rs and was seriously looking forward to Audio GD R2R11 but for some insane reason bought indiegogo.com/projects/auricsound-twin-ess-sabre-32bit-es9028q2m-dac/. Let's see how it goes. If this bombs my next purchase would be the R2R11.


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## trybeingarun

I have only used delta sigma dacs before. Is there a major benefit to go from DS to multibit, R2R etc


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## Oscar-HiFi

I love my EL DAC


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## Pharmaboy

rikk009 said:


> $250 seem okish for what it seem to offer. AKM 4490 does sound good in the mids specially. I am also getting more into R2Rs and was seriously looking forward to Audio GD R2R11 but for some insane reason bought indiegogo.com/projects/auricsound-twin-ess-sabre-32bit-es9028q2m-dac/. Let's see how it goes. If this bombs my next purchase would be the R2R11.



Yes, I'm pretty curious about the R211 (an all-in-one R2R! might be the only one in existence)--even though I don't need it.

You can still get an Audio GD DAC-19 or NOS 19 from Magna HiFi in Netherlands. I got both from them--the NOS 19 totally changed how I "hear" digital (as in, I don't hear it--I just hear music now). I'm in the U.S. These transactions went very smoothly.


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## Pharmaboy

trybeingarun said:


> I have only used delta sigma dacs before. Is there a major benefit to go from DS to multibit, R2R etc



Oh, yeah! I guess it depends on your sonic preferences (some people just love that D-S sound). But if you lean towards more organic/relaxed music reproduction, multi-bit can really change things.

I have the Audio GD DAC-19 (my backup DAC, believe it or not); and their NOS 19 (my day-to-day). Non-oversampling multibit digital changed just about for me (for the better).


----------



## rikk009

trybeingarun said:


> I have only used delta sigma dacs before. Is there a major benefit to go from DS to multibit, R2R etc


I won't say benefit but it's personal choice. When I first heard a NOS dac I felt it lacked treble response(too smooth) but then when I did A-B with any other Delta-sigma treble was on DS dac felt crude and harsh. It's worth giving it a try to see what it's all about.


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## leeperry (Nov 11, 2017)

NOS is a terrible idea anyway, most R2R manufacturers oversample because it's mandatory for good treble response.

Getting back OT, rolling opamps is one thing but anyone here did cap rolling huh?


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## Pharmaboy

leeperry said:


> NOS is a terrible idea anyway, most R2R manufacturers oversample because it's mandatory for good treble response.
> 
> Getting back OT, rolling opamps is one thing but anyone here did cap rolling huh?



Absolute statements like this ("NOS is  terrible idea") usually don't hold up very well.

In any case, my ears say that NOS is the total opposite of terrible...which probably means the quality of NOS vs OS DAC sound is implementation-dependent, like everything else in audio.

In any case, I'll trust my ears over proclamations like this any day.


----------



## leeperry (Nov 11, 2017)

Unfortunately, they very much do: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/any...higher-sample-rate.437340/page-3#post-5908346

Mr Lavy is a judge at the AES and built several DAC's, let's say he's quite knowledgeable about digital audio and whatever Schiit Multibit or Soekris R2R do upsample for the aforementioned reasons stated by Mr Lavry.

This discussion with Mr Lavry back then has been discussed in other threads:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/nos-dac-marketing-bs.438220/

http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/nos-non-oversampling-dacs-dan-lavry-comments.192299/

Anyway, roll the caps of your mstages already


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## trybeingarun

I would definitely like to try a NOS dac someday. People seem to have a love/hate relationship with it.


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## rikk009

Head-fi is a weird place.


----------



## AltCtrl (Mar 29, 2018)

Pharmaboy said:


> Really interested in your comments on sound of the HPA-3B. I'm interested in this amp, though the last thing I need is another amp (!) ... it's an addiction.


I've been using the HPA-3B for months now and I'm very impressed with it.

I recently did a brief A/B testing of the two amps using the following equipment:
Chord 2Qute DAC
Sennheiser HD6XX (love these headphones so easy to listen to, makes me want to try the 660s)
Beyerdynamic DT1900
Hifiman HE560

The HPA-3B is definitely a more analytical amp compared to the HPA-1. My preference in bass is i like crisp and defined/tight bass. The A/B testing I did was brief and I'm not sure if my ears hadn't adjusted after using the HPA-3B for months but the HPA-1 sounded almost muddy in comparison the HPA-3B just sounds more clear. Much prefer the HPA-3B with the EDM that I mostly listen to.

Did you say you own the Alex Cavalli amp(CTH or Carbon X?) and how would you compare it to the HPA-1? I can do some more A/B'ing if you want me to test a specific song or configuration.


----------



## Pharmaboy

AltCtrl said:


> I've been using the HPA-3B for months now and I'm very impressed with it.
> 
> I recently did a brief A/B testing of the two amps using the following equipment:
> Chord 2Qute DAC
> ...



Well, I sorta went in a different direction w/amps...got a Woo WA3 OTL/tube amp, which just finished burning in (love it).

I do own the Liquid Carbon (v2); a Head-Fi pal owns the CTH and has been raving about it since the moment he plugged it in.

I'm very fond of the HPA-1, but IMO it's a very different design compared to the LC--not directly competitive, because:

The HPA-1 can be used as a system preamp, and it's very good at that, particularly once you replace that awful volume knob w/something more ergonomic and visually clear. The LC can't do this.
The HPA-1 is single-ended all the way vs the LC, which can receive balanced inputs and output balanced signal
And the LC is significantly more powerful than the HPA-1. 
While both the LC & HPA-1 are somewhat similar in "voicing" (warm-ish; bassy; no elevated treble or razor-sharp transients), IMO the LC is far more amp, capable of much bigger soundstaging, more resolution/clarity, and synergy w/a number of the amps. All my headphones sounded more than decent on the HPA-1 except the ZMF Ori, a power-hungry planar that the HPA-1 just can't handle (it sounded strident & stressed)--vs the LC, which easily handles it. 

These 2 amps really aren't in the same sonic ballpark in terms of musical fidelity, though the HPA-1 is a very pleasant listen.

Re "muddy," you're correct in that HPA-1 (w/stock opamp) is not a very resolving amp. The bass in particular was boosted, but not terribly clear. That's why I began messing w/opamps (3 different ones). The basic sound changes quite a bit w/the right op amp. 

I stopped using my HPA-1 on a day-to-day basis 1-2 yrs ago, and now have so many amps that I haven't even heard it in 9+ months. It was my first real headphone amp and I still have fond memories of that warm, bassy sound.


----------



## AltCtrl

Pharmaboy said:


> Well, I sorta went in a different direction w/amps...got a Woo WA3 OTL/tube amp, which just finished burning in (love it).
> 
> I do own the Liquid Carbon (v2); a Head-Fi pal owns the CTH and has been raving about it since the moment he plugged it in.
> 
> ...


Yeah I already have a "end game" OTL tube amp (Feliks Elise) that I'm happy with. I'm more interested in solid state and hybrid amps.

Have you tried the CTH and how would you compare it to the Liquid Carbon? Also how does the THX AAA 789 compare to the Liquid Carbon, they both have similar builds. I'm really interested in these amps.


----------



## Pharmaboy

AltCtrl said:


> Yeah I already have a "end game" OTL tube amp (Feliks Elise) that I'm happy with. I'm more interested in solid state and hybrid amps.
> 
> Have you tried the CTH and how would you compare it to the Liquid Carbon? Also how does the THX AAA 789 compare to the Liquid Carbon, they both have similar builds. I'm really interested in these amps.



A good friend of mine (another Head-Fi'er) just got his CTH 4-5 days ago and has been raving about it. Not even fully burned in, but it's rocking his world with headphones like the ZMF Eikon (killer/endgame HP IMO), Audeze LCD2F, and Blue Lola. Eventually he'll bring the CTH over and I'll get to hear it on my headphones, also compare to LC. 

Re LC, I have to say that since I got my v2, I've never once felt like this was an amp I could do without. It does certain things better than even my best other amps; does other things nearly as well as my best; and has an eerie way to "lock in" and create great synergy w/various headphones, some of which is should sound terrible with "on paper" (best example being my now-sold E-Mu Teaks, which the LC rocked like a big baby carriage).

It's indispensible to me. Even w/high-achieving amps like the V281 & Woo WA3 on hand, the LC is essential to me.


----------



## AltCtrl

Pharmaboy said:


> A good friend of mine (another Head-Fi'er) just got his CTH 4-5 days ago and has been raving about it. Not even fully burned in, but it's rocking his world with headphones like the ZMF Eikon (killer/endgame HP IMO), Audeze LCD2F, and Blue Lola. Eventually he'll bring the CTH over and I'll get to hear it on my headphones, also compare to LC.
> 
> Re LC, I have to say that since I got my v2, I've never once felt like this was an amp I could do without. It does certain things better than even my best other amps; does other things nearly as well as my best; and has an eerie way to "lock in" and create great synergy w/various headphones, some of which is should sound terrible with "on paper" (best example being my now-sold E-Mu Teaks, which the LC rocked like a big baby carriage).
> 
> It's indispensible to me. Even w/high-achieving amps like the V281 & Woo WA3 on hand, the LC is essential to me.


Yeah I'm so tempted to jump on the CTH I'm attracted to hifi products at mid-fi prices. It's supposed to bring the Senn HD6XX to life as well. Massdrop currently doesn't have the Liquid Carbon in stock so I'll have to wait.


----------



## Pharmaboy

We're getting off-topic here...but I'm doing an extended review & evaluation of an HD650 mod (vs stock HD650), and so have been listening to this fascinating modded Senn for several months. Tried it on all my amps...listening to it on LC right now. It sounds very good (and very similar) on all of them, whether I connect it SE or balanced.

...until I plug it into an OTL/tube amp (Woo WA3)--and voila! Out pops the real Sennheiser. It sounds much like it does on SS, but everything is even better. Every single thing about the sound is better: more refined, flatter/more evenly balanced, more exact/pinpoint soundstaging, and amazing midrange.

I'm not sure that the HD650 realizes its full sonic potential until driven by a high impedance source like an OTL tube amp. Then again, it would very very interesting to hear the Senn on the CTH.


----------



## Caribou679

AltCtrl said:


> I've been using the HPA-3B for months now and I'm very impressed with it.
> 
> 
> Sennheiser HD6XX (love these headphones so easy to listen to, makes me want to try the 660s)
> ...



Have you had a chance of trying  HD6xx  balanced cabled with HPA-3B?  Or any other hp. I just bought a HPA-3B because it is a ss amp and  balanced capabilty. 
I build an adapter for MDR Z7 balanced cable to listen in it's XLR output.


----------



## AltCtrl

Pharmaboy said:


> We're getting off-topic here...but I'm doing an extended review & evaluation of an HD650 mod (vs stock HD650), and so have been listening to this fascinating modded Senn for several months. Tried it on all my amps...listening to it on LC right now. It sounds very good (and very similar) on all of them, whether I connect it SE or balanced.
> 
> ...until I plug it into an OTL/tube amp (Woo WA3)--and voila! Out pops the real Sennheiser. It sounds much like it does on SS, but everything is even better. Every single thing about the sound is better: more refined, flatter/more evenly balanced, more exact/pinpoint soundstaging, and amazing midrange.
> 
> I'm not sure that the HD650 realizes its full sonic potential until driven by a high impedance source like an OTL tube amp. Then again, it would very very interesting to hear the Senn on the CTH.


Did you get a chance to listen to the CTH yet? How do you think it compares to a 'class A' amp like the Gustard H20?


----------



## Pharmaboy

AltCtrl said:


> Did you get a chance to listen to the CTH yet? How do you think it compares to a 'class A' amp like the Gustard H20?



Not yet, I'm sorry to say. A local Head-Fi pal owns a CTH and really has been impressed w/it...I just haven't been able go over & hear the modded HD650 on it. I've read good things about that pairing in this thread...

But I have to say, I have several SS amps that are also balanced (Liquid Carbon v2; Violectric V281), and I'm pretty sure the LC is class A all the way. I've heard the modded HD650s on these and 2-3 other amps that are single ended SS. I couldn't hear any big differences in sound across the lot--kinda surprising, given that my amps hardly all sound alike; they also differ greatly in WPC/power.

I've concluded that addressing the higher impedance of this HP via an amp like the Woo WA (OTL/tube) that's designed for high impedance loads produces a larger sonic benefit than switching between SS amps, SE vs balanced, etc (the Woo is SE).

This benefit may also exist w/SS amps that allow higher output impedance to be selected, like the Beyerdynamic A20; and tube/SS hybrids w/switchable impedance (haven't been able to try any of those yet).


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## lugnut

Caribou679 said:


> Have you had a chance of trying HD6xx balanced cabled with HPA-3B? Or any other hp. I just bought a HPA-3B because it is a ss amp and balanced capabilty.


 The HD6XX sounds great with HPA-3B in balanced mode !



AltCtrl said:


> Did you get a chance to listen to the CTH yet?


I have the Matrix HPA-3B, Massdrop CTH and Matrix M-Stage HPA-1 and I would rate them in this order.


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## AltCtrl

lugnut said:


> The HD6XX sounds great with HPA-3B in balanced mode !
> 
> 
> I have the Matrix HPA-3B, Massdrop CTH and Matrix M-Stage HPA-1 and I would rate them in this order.



I concur with this I haven't been able to get away from the HD6XX and HPA-3B in balanced mode lately even with my array of headphones and amps.


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## bracko

I have a Matrix M-Stage HPA-1 rev. 2 for sale. Please see https://www.head-fi.org/threads/matrix-m-stage-hpa-1-rev-2-1.880275/


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## omegaorgun

*HPA-2 CLASSIC *Not sure why it says 110mW @ 32ohms in the specs as it's as powerful as my NFB.11, changed the opamp from a OPA2134 to a NE5532 and it sounded better to me, have a burson v6 vivid on the way.


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## staxstax

3 years ago I bought the Matrix M-Stage HPA3B
today out of the blue the right channel gives less volume
I tried different cables, headphones and players, the problem remains
(no mods, never opened the case)
Am I the only one?
if you know what it may causes the problem please help


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