# Are BG NX, Nichicon MUSE,ES,FG & Silmics just for Power Supply use?



## psgarcha92

Are capacitors, Electrolytic, like Black Gates NX and Elna Silmic II and Nichicon Muse, Nichicon ES designed for Power supply use rather than use in Signal path???
   
  I was looking for Elna Silmic II reviews when in signal path for my Sansa Fuze LOD.
  Well i did find the review at http://tech.juaneda.com/en/articles/electrolyticcapacitors.html
  but, the review of the caps is when they are in a power supply. hence my question....Are these series supposed to be used only in Power Supply?
   
  Regards


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## tomb

Quote: 





psgarcha92 said:


> Are capacitors, Electrolytic, like Black Gates NX and Elna Silmic II and Nichicon Muse, Nichicon ES designed for Power supply use rather than use in Signal path???
> 
> I was looking for Elna Silmic II reviews when in signal path for my Sansa Fuze LOD.
> Well i did find the review at http://tech.juaneda.com/en/articles/electrolyticcapacitors.html
> ...


 

 It does seem a bit contradictory, doesn't it?  The fact is, unless the power supply is super quiet, as in double-digit or single-digit microvolts, then the quality of the power capacitors in the power supply can be heard.  Plus, it may be that this gentlemen simply didn't have any capacitors in the signal path of his "model 3 preamplifier, " so he tested them in the power supply, instead.  Most likely, unless you're talking about OTL tube or tube hybrid amps - or the application you describe - no one has any use for very large electrolytic, audio-quality capacitors.
   
  BTW, I agree with his assessment of Elna Silmic II's.  Their only downside, IMHO, is their huge size compared to other caps with the same ratings.


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## psgarcha92

Quote: 





tomb said:


> It does seem a bit contradictory, doesn't it?  The fact is, unless the power supply is super quiet, as in double-digit or single-digit microvolts, then the quality of the power capacitors in the power supply can be heard.  Plus, it may be that this gentlemen simply didn't have any capacitors in the signal path of his "model 3 preamplifier, " so he tested them in the power supply, instead.  Most likely, unless you're talking about OTL tube or tube hybrid amps - or the application you describe - no one has any use for very large electrolytic, audio-quality capacitors.
> 
> BTW, I agree with his assessment of Elna Silmic II's.  Their only downside, IMHO, is their huge size compared to other caps with the same ratings.


 

 he does have those huge MKP capacitors, 400V, i do think they are in the signal path only.
   
  But still, i do not understand from what u have posted. Are these capacitors for Signal path or are these to be used in power supplies?
   
  I also see, that the So called boutique caps used as input caps, like the one the author of the page mentioned has used, are of very small capacities. that rolls off the bass, alot. a .1uF cap with a 10k pot, would affect bass upto 159Hz. But seriously, is the use of these caps in audio signal paths OK? or is that a big No No thing?


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## tomb

Quote: 





psgarcha92 said:


> he does have those huge MKP capacitors, 400V, i do think they are in the signal path only.
> 
> But still, i do not understand from what u have posted. Are these capacitors for Signal path or are these to be used in power supplies?
> 
> I also see, that the So called boutique caps used as input caps, like the one the author of the page mentioned has used, are of very small capacities. that rolls off the bass, alot. a .1uF cap with a 10k pot, would affect bass upto 159Hz. But seriously, is the use of these caps in audio signal paths OK? or is that a big No No thing?


 
  I think you need to read and study a bit more about capacitors before much of this is going to make sense to you.
   
  1. Understand that all of the voltage in the power supply eventually makes its way into the signal circuit.  Else, how would the signal get any power? 
   
  EDIT: So, in a way, the power supply ends up being in the signal circuit.  What determines whether you hear anything contributed by the power supply depends on the Power Supply Rejection Ratio (PSRR) of the signal circuit and/or the cleanliness of the power supply.  That's why in some amps (not the best ones), you end up hearing it all and changing parts even in the power supply can make a difference in the quality of sound.
   
  2. There are boutique "audio quality" electrolytic capacitors and there are many more that are not "audio quality."  Take Panasonic FM capacitors, for instance.  They are among the best for power supplies and ground decoupling.  However, put one directly in the signal path and they don't sound very good (some might say, "Lousy.").  Boutique, audio quality electrolytics like Muse ES's, KZ's, etc. will sound pretty good in the signal path but their power specs for the same ratings of Panasonic FM's will pale in comparison.  In fact, many companies simply don't publish the full range of power specs for audio quality capacitors.  Black Gates are a very famous example - it was hard to get the actual specs of any sort for those capacitors.  Nevertheless, many of them (NX's in particular) would often measure quite well in ESR.
   
  3. I don't see any 0.1uf caps in the signal input of the author's article.  He has a single 0.8mh inductor in line with a 50K pot.  My personal opinion is that the inductor is useless, but that's a different subject.  At any rate, I don't see where you get that there are input caps anywhere.
   
  The author's power supply is not really a bog-standard implementation of an LM317 circuit and should probably not be studied that closely.  Just MHO ...


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## psgarcha92

Quote: 





tomb said:


> I think you need to read and study a bit more about capacitors before much of this is going to make sense to you.
> 
> 1. *Understand that all of the voltage in the power supply eventually makes its way into the signal circuit.*  Else, how would the signal get any power?
> 
> ...


 

 I totally knew that, but don't know why did not think like that....my bad....sorry 
   
  So, the Panasonic FCs work well in Power Supplies and not directly in the signal path, as for DC filter, as in an LOD as for DC Decoupling or as Input Capacitors. Am i right here?
   
  And if we get the Nichicons into our power supplies, they wont be able to score as well as the Panasonic FMs and FCs would, right?
   
  SO now, can i say that it would be ok to implement these directly in the signal path as because of the low ESR, they would rather be used as Input caps then PS caps?
   
  Where can i learn more about capacitors and their audio applications? Sadly, tangent's input caps tutorial is the only place i've read extensively about the effects of capacitors.TBH, am just looking for suitable Capacitors for my Sansa Fuze LOD. I used Wimas, 1uF ones there, but rolls off the bass starting from 15.9Hz. could have been enough, but my 10uF caps have more bass and more bass detail then these so am looking for other options. I think i'd like the Elna Silmic IIs, but sometimes in the reviews i dont understand if the caps were referred as being used in a PS or as input caps. Blackgates are popular because they are used in diyMods and iMods. if u ever had any experience with Electrolytics as input caps, what do u think i should use here?
   
  Regards


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## tomb

Quote: 





psgarcha92 said:


> I totally knew that, but don't know why did not think like that....my bad....sorry
> 
> So, the Panasonic FCs work well in Power Supplies and not directly in the signal path, as for DC filter, as in an LOD as for DC Decoupling or as Input Capacitors. Am i right here?
> 
> ...


 

 What you're really talking about with LOD's on PDP's is similar to the output coupling caps on a DAC.  This page on the BantamDAC website can help explain the cutoff frequency and has some graphs to show you what's going on:
http://www.diyforums.org/BantamDAC/BantamDACf-cutoff.php
   
  If you're feeding an amp with a 10K pot, chances are, the only thing that will give you decent enough bass will be an electrolytic on the output.  I think the Elna RFS Silmic II's are as good as any Black Gate and we recommend them as the output coupling cap on the Skeleton DAC if it's feeding relatively low impedance loads.  However, take a look at Dsavitsk's Notes on Output Coupling Capacitors - you will find that you can come up with some bypass combinations using other caps that might sound pretty good.  For instance, I have tried the Nichicon Muse ES cap with small Sonicap Gen II film caps as bypasses.  The ES caps are hard to beat for bass.  They're also more transparent than many other electrolytic audio caps, including Black Gates.  Their only drawback is that they're a bit defficient in the highs.  However, a bypass arrangement with the Sonicap Gen II's addresses the high frequencies, too.
   
  Just some thoughts ...


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## psgarcha92

Quote: 





tomb said:


> What you're really talking about with LOD's on PDP's is similar to the output coupling caps on a DAC.  This page on the BantamDAC website can help explain the cutoff frequency and has some graphs to show you what's going on:
> http://www.diyforums.org/BantamDAC/BantamDACf-cutoff.php
> 
> *If you're feeding an amp with a 10K pot, chances are, the only thing that will give you decent enough bass will be an electrolytic on the output*.  I think the Elna RFS Silmic II's are as good as any Black Gate and we recommend them as the output coupling cap on the Skeleton DAC if it's feeding relatively low impedance loads.  However, take a look at Dsavitsk's Notes on Output Coupling Capacitors - you will find that you can come up with some bypass combinations using other caps that might sound pretty good.  For instance, I have tried the Nichicon Muse ES cap with small Sonicap Gen II film caps as bypasses.  The ES caps are hard to beat for bass.  They're also more transparent than many other electrolytic audio caps, including Black Gates.  Their only drawback is that they're a bit defficient in the highs.  However, a bypass arrangement with the Sonicap Gen II's addresses the high frequencies, too.
> ...


 

 Bass roll off, exactly why i am looking for suitable Electrolytic caps. had been using 1uF Wimas on my LODs, but they just ate away all the bass.For a new amp i would be building, i'd use two 10uF Wimas only, but for LODs, the size of the caps poses major difficulties in placement.
   
  So u mention the use of Nichicons bypassed with Sonicap Gen IIs. here, if i keep the value of the nichicon as high as 220uF, what value of the Sonicap should i be using?Is there some rule here? or the lowest value, say .0001uF would do?.1uF/200Vdc looks affordable, but would that help me have the frequencies i am supposed to have?
  I am sorry i ask so many questions....i do not have enough money to try on caps...hence the thread..... 
  & if u dont mind....else than the BGs, which i cannot find anywhere, so i'd be going for Nichicons and Elna Silmic IIs only, what Combinations have u tested, and what should i be trying here?
   
  My problem:
  my setup is Sansa Fuze>Vishay BC 10uF LOD>Mini^3>RE0.....everything in my setup but the 10uF caps says "bright".
  When i used the 1uF Wima LOD, it was detailed treble, but bright.....bass light.....with the Vishay BCs, i get some bass, but treble no longer as detailed, and, these caps are a bit slow too...am looking for a better Bass response, a little bit warmer, and more balanced presentation.....i just know its the caps in my setup bothering me now....
   
  Regards


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## tomb

Quote: 





psgarcha92 said:


> Bass roll off, exactly why i am looking for suitable Electrolytic caps. had been using 1uF Wimas on my LODs, but they just ate away all the bass.For a new amp i would be building, i'd use two 10uF Wimas only, but for LODs, the size of the caps poses major difficulties in placement.
> 
> So u mention the use of Nichicons bypassed with Sonicap Gen IIs. here, if i keep the value of the nichicon as high as 220uF, what value of the Sonicap should i be using?Is there some rule here? or the lowest value, say .0001uF would do?.1uF/200Vdc looks affordable, but would that help me have the frequencies i am supposed to have?
> I am sorry i ask so many questions....i do not have enough money to try on caps...hence the thread.....
> ...


 

 Unfortunately, there's no rhyme or reason to what kind of caps to use in a bypass arrangement.  You simply have to try the combinations to find out.  However - Wima caps are often good bypasses for many electrolytics.  Also - as mentioned - the Sonicap Gen II performs very well with ES's.  Wima's perform very well with ES's, too - so do VitaminQ's.
   
  Generally speaking, the bypass should be 0.1uf to 0.33uf.  Smaller bypasses tend to have little effect, whereas larger bypasses tend to muddy up the whole combination.  That's a very general statement, though.  For instance in the MiniMAX/MOSFET-MAX, we use 0.22uf as a standard bypass.  We also used 0.22uf Wima's (MKP10's) in the Starving Student PCB.  Recently we went to 0.33uf Sonicaps with ES's on the output in MiniMAX kits.  That combination has proven to be as good as VitaminQ's with ES's, which was a former choice before the VitQ supply had dried up. (We had used 0.18uf VitQ's because they were of a smaller physical size needed for the MiniMAX.)   I believe the stock of Sonicap Gen II's at 0.22uf has been used up, too (and I bought up all of their remaining 0.33uf's).  The last time I talked to the guys at Soniccraft, they were going to develop an entirely new line of capacitors instead of the Gen II's. We recommend VitaminQ's with Elna Silmics in the MOSFET-MAX.  The Elna's are as good as Black Gate NX's, but they are giant caps and won't fit into just any circuit/case.  Most VitQ's aren't so small, either.   So, maybe you should go with the Wima's and ES's for now - it's a pretty good combination.


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## Technics

Hi All 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Upgrading some caps on my Marantz CD75MK2, maybe the Philips CD850MK2.
  
 From reading this thread, overall the Elna Silmic II seem the best for the audio parth.  I was thinking for the largest cap in the power supply 6800uF 16V i would use Nichicon KA, smaller caps maybe either Elna Silmic , Muse ES, Muse KZ or more KAs. Around TDA1541 Silmic2, opamps Silmic2.
  
 I am confused with Muse ES BP caps, as i dont think i can use non bipolar caps, there so maybe get some fresh Muse for there.
  
 Stock caps used in both layers Muse ES BP only 2, rest are Nichicon VX. MarantzCD75MK2, almost looks like the large cap in the PS is leaking
  
 Digikey seems the best place for me, seem to have an AU website, no other BP brade apart from the MUSE ES, which I assume would be better than the Panasonic BP caps


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## chadbang

Tomb (if you're still around these days, I haven't been here for a long time) I've been reworking a crossover on a pair of EPI loudspeaker. They uses a single capacitor and resistor as a crossover. I tried some Bennic film caps to replace the old Callins electrolytic but I felt the film caps were too bright. So have liked Muse ES caps (when I was building my MiniMax with VitaminQ from you!) I tried a Muse ES and I like the results, but as you have said they do roll off the highs a bit. I have never used a bypass capacitor or know how to do it. You said you use Sonicap as a bypass. Could recommend me a bypass cap for my Muse ES to use in my crossover. I have the highest confidence in your taste. My Millet hybrid was the best headphone amp I ever heard. My crossover cap value is Muse ES 10uf 50v. What would you suggest as a bypass cap? Thank you for your help!


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## chadbang

please see above! Forgot to quote!


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## tomb

chadbang said:


> please see above! Forgot to quote!




I answered your PM. I would go with something at 0.1uf. The Mundorf EVO Aluminum-Oil is getting a lot of attention elsewhere lately. At 0.1uf, they're not outrageously expensive, either ($6.50 at Soniccraft).


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## chadbang

For $6 apiece I got some Vitamin Q. You wowed me again. Had these for my Max. With the Muse ... incredibly smooth. Now my speakers sound like HD650s.


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