# New Dragonfly Black and Red Discussion



## brent75

Darko says the new devices trump many of the popular DAPs out there now in sound quality (not to mention battery life and more).
  
*Some quotes*
 "Compared to the Sony NW-ZX2 and Astell&Kern AK120 II, the blood-Red DragonFly’s allegedly superior DAC, volume control and headphone amplifier prove their collective worth. The aforementioned South Korean and Japanese handhelds are outclassed on detail retrieval, separation and – most obvious of all – finesse."
  
 "Touchscreen DAPs from Astell&Kern, Sony, Fiio, Onkyo, Pioneer might not yet be rendered obsolete, especially for hardcore head-fiers, but the DragonFly Red casts serious doubt over the need to carry a second phone-sized device in the pursuit of higher sound quality."
  
 "This week the Californian company announce shipping commencement of a further improved version: the DragonFly Black. Same headphone amplifier chip, same analogue volume control as the v1.2 but better 32-bit ESS 9010 Sabre DAC chip (previously a 9023) as well as a new, low noise asynchronous USB PIC32MX270 receiver chip from Microchip loaded with revised Streamlength™ code from Mr. USB himself, Gordon Rankin."
  
"On the inside, Red sports hotter chips – _“the latest ESS headphone amp”_ (according to AudioQuest) and a 64-bit, bit-perfect volume control that’s built into its ESS Sabre 9016 DAC chip. On output muscle, the Red says hello at 2.1V – that’s 0.9V higher than Black – and drives HiFiMAN’s HE-1000 just nicely."
  
"Such connective wizardry is largely down to the Microchip silicon’s super low power draw. It requires a mere quarter of the current supply needed by the previous TI receiver chip."
  
  
*Black: $99*
*Red: $199*
*MORE DETAILED COMPARISONS BETWEEN THE TWO*
  
  
*Digital Audio Review (Red)*
  
*Digital Audio Review (Black)*
  
*WhatHiFi?*
  
*What HiFi? (Red review)*
  
*What HiFi? (Black review)*
  
*CNET*


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## lexterminator

Does anyone know how much milliwatts the Dragonfly Red could pump out at 600ohm ? I'm curious to know if it could drive the Beyer T1 to decent sound level and dynamics.


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## asak

> Does anyone know how much milliwatts the Dragonfly Red could pump out at 600ohm ? I'm curious to know if it could drive the Beyer T1 to decent sound level and dynamics.


 
  
 7.3 milliwatts I think. http://www.rapidtables.com/calc/electric/ohms-law-calculator.htm


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## lexterminator

Thank you for the calculator link, if that is accurate it could work but not being very loud. I already own the Cambridge Dacmagic XS. Works well with T5p v2 and HD598 but not powerful enough to drive well the T1v2 (mainly using Fostex HP-A8c with T1s). Wondering how much the Dragonfly Red would represent an upgrade over the Dacmagic XS. Might give it a shot or save more for Mojo.


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## gavinfabl

I'm tempted to get the Red to try to see what a difference it makes.


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## henrylw

Just picked up a RED Dragonfly from a Trutone store in Mississauga. Quick question for friends using android device: Is there a solution that I can use any player instead of just one "USB Audio Player PRO"? No sound from all my other music players. While my OPPO HA-2 plays perfectly in all of them. I tried it on a Samsung Galaxy S4 (5.1) and Note 2 (4.4), same result.
  
 On my laptop, the sound quality from above  two to is very similar, much clear/cleaner than the original sound on PC. My headphone is OPPO PM-3 (I won't use them on my QC25 anyway)


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## SpiderNhan

This website has a review in Dutch. There is a PDF download with a better English translation, but Google translate gets the point across. Reviewer uses both Black and Red with the AQ Nighthawks out of an iPhone 6 and Mac Mini.

http://artsexcellence.com/site/audioquest-dragonfly-black-en-red-usb-dacs/


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## 0rangutan

I am due to receive my Black today.
Will be using it with iPhone 6, Lightning to USB adapter and a range of IEMs (Sennheiser IE800's, Echobox Finder X1, Klipsch X10 and Yamaha EPH100).
Will share initial thoughts and comparisons with the Oppo HA-2 later this evening.


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## brent75

Very curious to hear your thoughts - I too previously had the HA-2. I'll probably be getting the Red and doing a review.


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## kamp2024

Really curious as I want to use with same combo iPhone6 and ie800's. Can't wait....


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## leaky74

I picked a red up on Saturday & am using it with a pair of Nighthawks - v impressed!


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## 0rangutan

0rangutan said:


> I am due to receive my Black today.
> Will be using it with iPhone 6, Lightning to USB adapter and a range of IEMs (Sennheiser IE800's, Echobox Finder X1, Klipsch X10 and Yamaha EPH100).
> Will share initial thoughts and comparisons with the Oppo HA-2 later this evening.


 

 Here are my first impressions, running the new Dragonfly Black from my iPhone 6 via the Apple Lightning to USB Camera Adapter cable.  Music used: Jon Hopkins, Matthew Dear, Champs, Courtney Barnett, Laura Marling, Josefin Ohrn, Vampire Weekend, Lydia Ainsworth.
  

  
 Firstly, I had forgotten just how nicely weighted the Dragonfly is.  Combined with the soft touch finish and the gold plated USB connector, it is a pleasure to hold.  The cute little leatherette pouch is actually quite useful.  The weight of the Dragonfly doesn't present any problems for either my IEMs or the Apple cable - the whole assembly fits and hangs together surprisingly well.
  
 On plugging it into the iPhone the Dragonfly lights up red and then magenta in quick succession, before turning green/blue immediately that I play 44.1/48 tracks.  No awkward pauses, it just works.  There is a small start-up noise but nothing alarming.  It also works immediately as the phone comes out of sleep - something that the Oppo HA-2 would never do for me, requiring unplugging and re-plugging.  This drove me mad with the HA-2, contributing to me selling it, irrespective of its sound quality.  The only oddity I have noticed is that, left plugged in, the Dragonfly causes the iPhone screen to wake up briefly occasionally.  Not a big issue but you wouldn't appreciate this if left bed side when trying to sleep.
 I was a little worried about volume levels for the Black given its 1.2V (compared to 1.8 for previous model and 2.1 for the Red) but am pleased to report that it kicks out plenty of volume on any of the IEMs that I tried it with.  I couldn't safely go above 50% volume through the Dragonfly, whereas I would normally be up at 90+% when using my IE800's directly.  I haven't tried to measure battery consumption with or without the Dragonfly, however I am happy that I can't discern any obvious extra battery drain while using it.  Certainly nothing to worry about.
  
 I tested using the four pairs of IEMs that I own.  The Yamaha EPH-100's and Klipsch X10's both sounded better than direct from the iPhone.  The combination with the Yamahas had a tendency to pick out more detail than you might like on some tracks.  While most songs were clearly better using the Dragonfly, it wasn't a very forgiving combination and poorer recordings were occasionally harder to listen to using the Dragonfly than going direct.  The X10's worked superbly and without any of the more aggressive edge that I heard using the Yamahas.  The Dragonfly is a lovely match for the X10's.
  
 Moving on to my Echobox Finder X1's, these have been characterised as an inexpensive IE800 and with good reason - they offer a surprising amount of the IE800 sound for a small fraction of the price.  They are also a great match for the Dragonfly, simply providing a scaled up version of what they already do well when used direct from the iPhone.  Bass is reasonably well defined with minimal bloom (if I had to find a fault, the slight bloom would be it).  Treble is very detailed and extends well but isn't inflated or sibilant - perfect to my taste.  The Dragonfly seems very neutral in this respect - it hasn't notably changed the sound signature of any of my IEMs.  In comparison, however great the Oppo HA-2 is, I found that it made almost all recordings sound thicker with over inflated mids and resulting in a sound that I can only describe as cloying.  The Dragonfly sounds more open and spacious without being overly airy.
  
 Lastly (and what I bought it for), the Sennheiser IE800's.  I find these to sound superb directly from my iPhone 6 to begin with and, while I have tried a few portable amps, I haven’t found anything that sounded much better and certainly not better enough to justify the hassle of dragging them around.  The HA-2 was the best so far, but I am delighted to say that the Dragonfly Black combination beats the HA-2 quite comprehensively - a better and more open sound (to my taste), way more portable, no rubber bands, no charging required, just one volume control, wakes from sleep fine, costs a third of the price.  For my particular use case there is just no contest.  As with the X1’s, the Black doesn’t change the IE800’s sound signature much at all, but brings even more detail, a more usable volume range, slightly wider sound stage and possibly a slight lift in the upper bass region.  Positive results so far.
  
 Looking forward to hearing comparisons between the Black and Red.  I am happy enough with the Black that I won't be looking to upgrade too quickly


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## 0rangutan

henrylw said:


> Just picked up a RED Dragonfly from a Trutone store in Mississauga. Quick question for friends using android device: Is there a solution that I can use any player instead of just one "USB Audio Player PRO"? No sound from all my other music players. While my OPPO HA-2 plays perfectly in all of them. I tried it on a Samsung Galaxy S4 (5.1) and Note 2 (4.4), same result.


 
  
 For my Sony Z3 Tablet (5.1) the Dragonfly worked without without me having to make any changes.
  
 My Nexus 5 (6.0) wouldn't work initially but is working now.  I had to go into Developer options (Google "Android enable developer mode" if you haven't already) and change the "Select USB Configuration" option to be "Audio Source".


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## ikkx

0rangutan said:


> Here are my first impressions, running the new Dragonfly Black from my iPhone 6 via the Apple Lightning to USB Camera Adapter cable.  Music used: Jon Hopkins, Matthew Dear, Champs, Courtney Barnett, Laura Marling, Josefin Ohrn, Vampire Weekend, Lydia Ainsworth.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 v1.2 vs black?


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## 0rangutan

ikkx said:


> v1.2 vs black?



Too long ago to compare meaningfully, sorry, plus I used the original with my laptop so a different scenario.


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## west0ne

What's the battery sacrifice like with the 'black'?
  
 I like the idea of having something really portable to go with my daily use mobile but if it drains the battery to the point where I need to carry a spare battery pack it detracts from the portability somewhat and I may as well stick with my battery powered DAC/Amp.


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## 0rangutan

west0ne said:


> What's the battery sacrifice like with the 'black'?
> 
> I like the idea of having something really portable to go with my daily use mobile but if it drains the battery to the point where I need to carry a spare battery pack it detracts from the portability somewhat and I may as well stick with my battery powered DAC/Amp.


 

 ​As I mentioned in my review, there was no obvious pronounced battery drain.  I used it for a few hours and my battery appeared to drop at the same level I would expect using the IE800's directly.
  
 I will see if I can do something more scientific to measure this evening.


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## west0ne

0rangutan said:


> ​As I mentioned in my review, there was no obvious pronounced battery drain.  I used it for a few hours and my battery appeared to drop at the same level I would expect using the IE800's directly.
> 
> I will see if I can do something more scientific to measure this evening.


 
 When I read it initially I found the comment odd as I couldn't see how an external USB device would draw less power but I suppose in hindsight it's bypassing the internal DAC/Amp so there is probably some offset and with that I guess it will vary from phone to phone depending on how much power their own internals use.
  
 I would definitely like to see some more real world battery consumption thoughts when you have used it more as it sounds like a good bit of kit.


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## FlyingFungus

henrylw said:


> Just picked up a RED Dragonfly from a Trutone store in Mississauga. Quick question for friends using android device: Is there a solution that I can use any player instead of just one "USB Audio Player PRO"? No sound from all my other music players. While my OPPO HA-2 plays perfectly in all of them. I tried it on a Samsung Galaxy S4 (5.1) and Note 2 (4.4), same result.
> 
> On my laptop, the sound quality from above  two to is very similar, much clear/cleaner than the original sound on PC. My headphone is OPPO PM-3 (I won't use them on my QC25 anyway)


 
  
 Trutone is where I got my DragonDly v1.2. I might end up with another one at some point in time lol.


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## 0rangutan

After slightly more scientific battery drain tests I can confirm that the Dragonfly does drain the iPhone’s battery faster than playing directly, but not particularly badly - *around 4% extra per hour.*
  
 I tested the drain using an iPhone 6 in airplane mode, screen off and roughly volume matched between Dragonfly Black and built-in amp.
  
 1 hour of play with directly connected IE800's = drop of 2%
 1 hour of play via Dragonfly Black to IE800's = drop of 6%
  
 This means that iPhone + Dragonfly Black should be good for ca. 16 hours playback used in airplane mode.


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## SpiderNhan

The Red is pretty powerful and I had to drop the gain on USB Audio Player PRO to 1/5 to get some headroom otherwise 2 clicks on the volume slider was uncomfortably loud with the Dunu DN-2000J. So far it seems to add much more "bite" and "energy" to the sound almost like it's trying to player louder that I want it to. Also, sibilance has been eliminated. Deeper impressions after I get some more head time with this thing. AQ recommends 24 hours of burn-in.


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## tui2004

0rangutan said:


> For my Sony Z3 Tablet (5.1) the Dragonfly worked without without me having to make any changes.
> 
> My Nexus 5 (6.0) wouldn't work initially but is working now.  I had to go into Developer options (Google "Android enable developer mode" if you haven't already) and change the "Select USB Configuration" option to be "Audio Source".


 
  
 Hi @0rangutan , could you please use Ampere app (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.gombosdev.ampere) with Nexus 5 and Z3.
  
 I would like to know how many powers that Dragonfly Black consume from mobile devices.
  
 To compare the result with this usb dac -> http://www.head-fi.org/t/797668/review-encore-mdsd-dac-amp-a-new-pocket-rocket-to-make-you-hum/45#post_12538714
  
 Thank you very much and have a nice day...


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## 0rangutan

The Dragonfly Black measures at around 50mA drain:
  
 Without Dragonfly / With Dragonfly
  
 Nexus 5:  220mA / 270mA
 OnePlus X:  130mA / 180mA


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## tui2004

Thank you very much @0rangutan , sure that my Moto E will can supply power to Dragonfly Black


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## mofu

I have a Dragonfly Red. Even though it should be a little more effcient than the Black, Ampere also reports a difference of around 50mAh. This is measured between playing music from the headphone out and from the Dragonfly Red. However the Ampere app does not to seem very exact.
  
 Luckily my phone (Redmi 3) has a 4100 mAh battery. Therefore the additional drain is no problem and I prefer the small footprint of the Dragonfly comapred to DACs that have their own battery and only last 20h. I only wish the sleeve they include would have a clip, so I could attach the device to my clothes or bag.
  
 I can't really compare it to any other equipment as my only other DAC is a Gungnir, which I use in my speaker system. The speaker system unfortunately has no means of using headphones.
 Sound impressions will have to wait. For now I can only state that it has much lower noise than my notebook headphone out.


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## defguy

Picked up the red today, preliminary opinion, pretty amazing,there is definitely some extra battery draw on my note 3 though


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## Ymer

Dying to see how the new ones stack up against the 1.2!


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## gavinfabl

First listen with the Red. Testing it with my LG G5 and Oppo PM-3 and Sennheiser HD598se. 

Incredible amounts of power with USB Audio Player Pro app.


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## canali

gavinfabl said:


> First listen with the Red. Testing it with my LG G5 and Oppo PM-3 and Sennheiser HD598se.
> 
> Incredible amounts of power with USB Audio Player Pro app.


 
 thanks....but what of the details, clarity, separation, slam etc...big diff with vs without?


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## brent75

My Red just showed up today. I'll try to get some good thoughts up later on.


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## canali

if anyone has a chord mojo, and has compared it with the dragonfly red, then
 that would be a most interesting posting.
  
 john darko, in his reply to me on the review of the red, when i asked him
 if there was a big diff said simply 'yes the mojo is a significant step up'.
 of course it's 3x the price, and chord has done so much magic (custom chips
 listening theory expertise etc)...but will be interesting to see this, eventually.


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## gavinfabl

canali said:


> if anyone has a chord mojo, and has also able to compare it with the dragonfly red, then
> that would be a most interesting posting.
> 
> john darko, in his reply to me on the review of the red, when i asked him
> ...




The Mojo is in a different league sound wise. However, it is as you said 3 x more expensive. 

The Red has further advantages over the Mojo in terms of portability and not needing to be recharged. 

I spent 3 hours listening with it. I need more time but it does make a difference. Better separation. Pulled out more info on some of the tracks. Clearer. Using USB Audio Player Pro the volume levels with both headphones (Oppo PM-3/Sennheiser HD598se) were plentiful. I tried loads of different genres too. 

I also have an Oppo HA-2 and iBasso D-zero MK2, so will test that with both of these as well. 

I am pleased with my Dragonfly Red.


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## canali

gavinfabl said:


> The Mojo is in a different league sound wise. However, it is as you said 3 x more expensive.
> 
> The Red has further advantages over the Mojo in terms of portability and not needing to be recharged.
> 
> ...


 
 thanks....appreciate that.
  
 i already have the iFi micro iDSD for home use (with ipurifier 2 and my  headphone tube amp...laptop is my main music source).
  
 Red might be sufficient for me, then...afterall I would be using the dragonfly red or mojo strictly for _strictly portable use_ (as in walking around listening to music....or when sitting in whole foods eating area or local cafe)...so this means lots of ambient noise...and thus the listening environment won't be as ideal as when listening at home....guess i'm trying to talk myself out of spending 3x more for the mojo ...plus it's more bulky and doesn't truly fit what i define as 'portable' user friendly 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   (read: no stacks for me...no bulk, want as light as possible and can't detect it's weight/bulk when walking around)


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## leaky74

I've had both; I sold my Mojo....

I wouldn't say the the Mojo gives you anywhere near x3 the performance. I personally I prefer the pairing of the red with my AQ Nighthawks & it's only from that point of view I can comment.

With those particular HF's, for me, you can throw a hat over them in terms of clarity/detailing & staging. The bass doesn't extend down as well on the red as the mojo but I think the red (again with the Nighthawks in mind), offers a bit more clarity in the mids. 

The red is obviously brighter (not in a bad way), where the mojo is warmer/smoother. As such the red might be just (& I mean just), a touch more fatiguing.

I'd keep them both if I could justify it but as something I can use at home (with a Schiit Magni 2U), that works sooo well with the Nighthawks and that I can use as an inline device on the go - the red is better for my needs.


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## gavinfabl

Just trying the Red with my Dunu Titan 5 in ear headphones. A good pairing so far. Just make sure you start with a super low volume and don't adjust it too much especially if listening to classical music that has lots of ups and downs. The Red has a lot of scale.


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## defbear

Reading the posts, should I get the feeling that Red might be too powerful if only using IEM's? Thank you.


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## defguy

The Red works fine with the iem's I've pared it with so far, Noble 3 and Westone W40, had to lower the volume a little but not too much,


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## SpiderNhan

Dunu DN-2000J and Mee Audio A151p 2nd Gen. sound great with the Red.
  
 Here are some quick impressions using my Galaxy S6 Active>DN-2000J with and without Red.
  
 Without
 -No detectable hiss or noise.
 -No EMI.
 -A bit less resolution up top
 -Harsher highs. Sssibilance.
 -More mid-bass presence.
 -Less energy.
 -More 2-dimensional sound stage.
  
 With
 -Slight hum when music is silent, but only noticeable if you're listening for it.
 -No EMI. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 -Crystal clear and sparkly treble.
 -No harshness and sibilance is ELIMINATED(confirmed this by listening to a couple NPR podcasts).
 -Less mid-bass and bass presence overall. It still goes pretty deep, but less oomph.
 -Very energetic, almost aggressive signature.
 -Wider sound stage with more depth.
  
 Galaxy S6 Active

  
 Galaxy S6 Active + Dragonfly Red


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## gavinfabl

Right time to try my Sony XBA-1 in ears. These are a nightmare pair of headphones but when your pair them correctly they are magical. Truly magical. 

So say hello to the magical pairing so far of the Red to the XBA-1  

Very happy about this.


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## balek

I am going to buy a red one wich i will pair with a Samsung Note 3 and Sennheiser 598SE. Then I will post my impressions.

Trimis de pe al meu SM-N9005 folosind Tapatalk


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## gavinfabl

The Red definitely benefits from burn in. I've had it running non stop today. There is a tiny amount of warmth (not heat) now. It's really mellowed. Bass has improved. Separation, clarity, instruments etc are more refined.


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## all999

I'm going to pair Red one with Nighthawks. Can't wait till it's gonna be available in Poland


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## ryan740

Has anyone tried the red with DT 770 250 Ohm?  I am pretty sure based other reviews that it will push them, but what about the highs?


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## mofu

Yesterday I made some comparisons between my headphone out and the Red.
 Note, that the phone used is a Xiaomi Redmi 3 so when comparing RRP, ignoring import fees and shipping costs for the phone, the dragonfly costs the double of the transport used.
  
  
 I got out the Shure SRH 840 I once bought for mixing and mastering. Unfortunately we recorded only one song and this was three years back.
 Having heard this headphone only from my m-audio pro fire 610 recording interface and remembered it to have piercing highs in that setup.
 With that impression written to my memory I do not find the Red overly bright. It think it is less bright than the Gungnir (still the S/D) used in my speaker system. Nevertheless high frequencies are present and it is able to produce a nice texture on cymbals.
  
 Compared to the headphone out of my phone I witnessed much better separation clarity and detail.
 Using the Red I could pin point when new instruments appeared in the arrangement. Without it, I usually noticed those voices only when they reached their full volume.
 Especially the lower registers had more texture. The Red reached lower  and was more precise in the bass department.
  
 When comparing I often had to force myself to unplug the Red from my phone. Contrarily, I often wanted to stop a track early, when listening straight from my phone, so I could switch back to the Dragonfly.
 Possibly there will be further impressions , when my Ei.XX arrive.


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## SpiderNhan

This post made my ears perk up.
  


inthere said:


> Omg I'm losing my mind listening to the new Dragonfly Red hooked up to my iPhone...........sounds better than the original Dragonfly and damn, I'd even pick it over my Mojo-straight out the box with no burn in, this thing is fantastic!


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## canali

spidernhan said:


> This post made my ears perk up.




great to hear and thanks for sharing.

personally i think audioquest is nailing the price point: not too low where you'll
think 'hmmm maybe the quality sucks a bit...''  but also not priced as high as he mojo which rules the roost in its price point.

audioguest is testing the market with the more expensive red.... they've seen how well the inital 2 versions sold. if it's just released models' sales are good maybe their next series of dragonflys could possibly offer yet another more premium model, say in the $300-$400 (or more $$) range, should it sell as well as it's expected to, esp if the reviews are overall very favourable...just speculating.

what will be further interesting is in who will win out in the portable audio music market: daps vs smartphones.
esp when you have gizmos like this that can really elevate the sound of your device.


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## defbear

canali said:


> who knows: maybe audioguest is testing the market with the more expensive red.... if the red's sales are good
> their next edition dragonfly will be a yet more premium series in the $300-$400 (or $$) range, should it sell as well as it's expected to, esp if the reviews are favourable...hey just speculating.


 
 A very astute post. I'm not cynical. I've ordered a Red from B&H. But  yes, I think you've got it!


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## Signal2Noise

Anyone know if Red and/or Black are USB Audio Class 1 or UAC2 ? Mojo won't work with my Windows Phone because W10M doesn't support UAC2 yet. Looking for a good option to tote around. UAC1 will work since my Audioengine DACs are fine.


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## brent75

gavinfabl said:


> The Red definitely benefits from burn in. I've had it running non stop today. There is a tiny amount of warmth (not heat) now. It's really mellowed. Bass has improved. Separation, clarity, instruments etc are more refined.


 
 I can confirm this as well. It sounded very nice straight out of the box - but it definitely feels like it's loosening up/stretching its muscles now. I ran mine for nearly 24 hours straight, and (1) can definitely notice a sound improvement, and (2) was surprised that it was barely warm to the touch. Super happy with this purchase. I would still love to hear the Mojo at some point to compare. I may think it sounds better, but it would take something pretty incredible for it to feel "$400 better" than Red.


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## Deni5

Impressed by the Dragonfly Red. You get a of lot performance for the money, especially when using it together with the Jitterbug (everything it does good gets a little better). To me it's on the same level as a HERUS+ which is twice as expensive DAC/amp. With the Dragonfly Red I would say you get 300-400 USD performance DAC level - getting more for the money is always a good investment 
  
 I believe the digital filter it uses (minimum phase) makes everything better. The original Dragonfly is good but Red is better in instrument separation, soundstage (something expensive DACs do well).
  
 Mojo plays in a different league. Detail retrieval on the Mojo is staggering, no comparison. Mojo has more power and so on. But sometimes you don't care too much for that. No matter which you would buy you get more for less


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## mofu

canali said:


> great to hear and thanks for sharing.
> 
> personally i think audioquest is nailing the price point: not too low where you'll
> think 'hmmm maybe the quality sucks a bit...''  but also not priced as high as he mojo which rules the roost in its price point.
> ...


 
 In consumer market only little standalone DAPs are sol anymore. Most people use their phones. This is also due to the rise of streaming services, you can not use on a DAP.
 With my previous phone I would probably have bought a DAP but now that I got a large battery, I can use my phone with the Red and the size of the additional device is much smaller compared to a DAP. For me this was the main selling point of the new dragonflies.


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## dudde

I just bought the Dragonfly Red to use with iphone and ipad. The sound is amazing but I am experiencing a crackling, cracked sound on some tunes when I use Spotify. Have discovered that this happens when I use Spotify's equlizer. Usually i use the acoustic or the jazz setting. Should it be so, has anyone else experienced the same thing?


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## brent75

I've EQed on other iPhone sources with zero issues (Onkyo HF Player).

If you remove the Red and stream same thing direct does the crackle disappear?


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## dudde

Without the Red Dragonfly , I have no problems with distortion at all.
 I experience crackling noises on some songs and in the same places, not all the time. Just like some of the tones are too "hot" and begins to crack . An example is the beginning on this : https://open.spotify.com/track/1ty1s48EKTjZNdKweHkXpY with acoustic setting on the EQ . It would be interesting if someone could test streaming from Spotify on an iPhone / iPad with these settings. I use Shure srh1840 as headphones.


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## stenog

Anyone tried the red and the black version and if so is how big is the difference ? I can buy both in Denmark for an ok price, don't need to import.
  
 I use Xperia Z5 and Tidal HiFI download from my phone or streaming. I only use iems so i dont need a lot of power just better clarity/sound 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.


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## 0rangutan

dudde said:


> Without the Red Dragonfly , I have no problems with distortion at all.
> I experience crackling noises on some songs and in the same places, not all the time. Just like some of the tones are too "hot" and begins to crack . An example is the beginning on this : https://open.spotify.com/track/1ty1s48EKTjZNdKweHkXpY with acoustic setting on the EQ . It would be interesting if someone could test streaming from Spotify on an iPhone / iPad with these settings. I use Shure srh1840 as headphones.


 
  
 I tried the track that you linked using the Dragonfly Black with iPhone 6 and IE800's.  There is a very small sound that I think matches your description when I use the Dragonfly and Spotify Acoustic EQ.  Disabling the EQ or removing the Dragonfly removes this sound.  It is very minor in my setup though and I can confidently say that I wouldn't have noticed it without knowing to listen for it.  It is quite possible that the effect is more pronounced on the Red than the Black.


----------



## jerry1130

Just got my Dragonfly Red. First impression, it's barely loud enough to drive my SE846 from a Nexus 6p. It only gets loud when android volume control is at 95%. Is there another gain control that I am missing?


----------



## brent75

jerry1130 said:


> Just got my Dragonfly Red. First impression, it's barely loud enough to drive my SE846 from a Nexus 6p. It only gets loud when android volume control is at 95%. Is there another gain control that I am missing?


 
 You're using Red...with IEMs...and phone is at 95% volume...and that's not loud enough?!? Yeah, that sounds crazy and no way that could be correct. Do you have a music player volume as well as phone volume?
  
 If I had my iPhone at 95% + Red coming out of my open-back headphones it would be extremely painful and cause damage...can't even imagine an IEM on top of that.


----------



## jerry1130

Using Tidal and Spotify. No in-app volume control. Volume is completely controlled through Android. Tried it with my T50RP MK3 and they are unusable out of my phone with the Dragonfly Red.


----------



## west0ne

jerry1130 said:


> Using Tidal and Spotify. No in-app volume control. Volume is completely controlled through Android. Tried it with my T50RP MK3 and they are unusable out of my phone with the Dragonfly Red.


 
 Are you able to try it with another phone or with a computer? I had similar problems with a USB DAC (not the Dragonfly) in that it worked with some phones but there was almost no volume with another (Moto G). USB DACs do seem to be a bit hit and miss when used with Android.


----------



## brent75

jerry1130 said:


> Using Tidal and Spotify. No in-app volume control. Volume is completely controlled through Android. Tried it with my T50RP MK3 and they are unusable out of my phone with the Dragonfly Red.


 
 How weird. Must be an issue of compatibility w/ your phone rather than the Red itself. Going back to Darko's review referenced on page 1 of this thread:
  
 ----
 "The 21st Century Sony Walkman is a heavily disguised Android phone that trades in call and SMS functionality for D/A conversion and headphone drive designed with audiophile sensitivities. Like the Astell&Kern players, the Sony’s headphone output is on the weak side. Fine for IEMs, less so for thirstier cans. _The DragonFly Black supplies more of the necessary go juice as called on by the Fostex T50RP MK3 than the Sony portable. Wow_."
 ----
  
 And that's just for the Black, which is less powerful than the Red. Hopefully you can get it figured out.


----------



## brent75

dudde said:


> Without the Red Dragonfly , I have no problems with distortion at all.
> I experience crackling noises on some songs and in the same places, not all the time. Just like some of the tones are too "hot" and begins to crack . An example is the beginning on this : https://open.spotify.com/track/1ty1s48EKTjZNdKweHkXpY with acoustic setting on the EQ . It would be interesting if someone could test streaming from Spotify on an iPhone / iPad with these settings. I use Shure srh1840 as headphones.


 
 What song/artist is this? I don't have Spotify so can't stream it, but if it's a track I can stream through Apple music or on Youtube or even purchase, I may try just to see if I can detect the crackle as well with Red engaged.


----------



## tommo21

jerry1130 said:


> Using Tidal and Spotify. No in-app volume control. Volume is completely controlled through Android. Tried it with my T50RP MK3 and they are unusable out of my phone with the Dragonfly Red.




Have you gone into developer settings and set the usb priority to audio device? Maybe that will work?


----------



## jerry1130

Definitely much higher volume of out the computer. I guess the line level for the Nexus 6p is much lower. No idea how to increase it though.


----------



## dudde

brent75 said:


> What song/artist is this? I don't have Spotify so can't stream it, but if it's a track I can stream through Apple music or on Youtube or even purchase, I may try just to see if I can detect the crackle as well with Red engaged.


 

```
[color=rgb(33, 33, 33)]  [/color]
```
 I have a feeling that this is a problem with Spotify and its equlaizer . When I , for example, have the acoustic setting turned on its crackle on several songs but not all. The song I referred to was just a clear example . The album is called " Beyond the Missouri Sky " and the song is called "Our Spanish Love Song " by Charlie Haden and Pat Metheney. 
I have not tried the Dragonfly in other devices than the iPhone 6 and iPad
Thank you


----------



## SpiderNhan

jerry1130 said:


> Definitely much higher volume of out the computer. I guess the line level for the Nexus 6p is much lower. No idea how to increase it though.


 
 This is a copy/paste of my reply in this thread.
  
 "Concerning volume issues with Android, I'll give a quick run down of my experiences so far.

 Android system through USB OTG is limited to 15 volume steps regardless of app used. This applies to Google Play Music, YouTube, MX Player, etc. I find that the volume output is quite low, even with the 8 ohm Dunus, and I must use volume step 13 out of 15 to get listenable levels. Strangely, the volume difference between steps 14 and 15 is significant! It's like going up 4 or 5 volume steps at once. Perhaps max Android volume = Line Out?

 USB Audio Player Pro offers the most amount of volume control although the software volume is limited to 20 steps. However, the amount of volume allotted to the 20 steps is adjustable to varying degrees when combined with the Hardware Volume and EQ gain sliders. I haven't calculated how many levels are available in Hardware Volume, but the slider moves in small increments and I have yet to go past 60% to attain optimal listening levels with my gear. I don't have any 300 ohm headphones to test, but with how loud it drives my Q701s I imagine it won't be a problem.

 Poweramp alpha build 703 allows the user to adjust the amount of volume steps in software. The levels are 30, 50, 76 and 100. It works incredibly well but, on my phone at least, only works when Poweramp is open in the foreground. When the screen is off the volume steps will default to Android's 15. A neat feature with the alpha 703 build is variable output options including a hi-res option for phones that support it. I don't want to delve too deeply into the options here as they are a bit complicated, but sound quality on the alpha build is better than the official release and even its DAC output sounds better. Volume is still a problem though. Using the Poweramp EQ I have to drag the preamp up to full and put volume up to 75%+ for listenable levels with the 32 ohm V-MODA M-100. Sound is just as good as UAPP, but the volume control isn't there.

 So, for the time being, UAPP is still the best option for Dragonfly."


----------



## jmsaxon69

stenog said:


> Anyone tried the red and the black version and if so is how big is the difference ? I can buy both in Denmark for an ok price, don't need to import.
> 
> I use Xperia Z5 and Tidal HiFI download from my phone or streaming. I only use iems so i dont need a lot of power just better clarity/sound  .




I have both, the Red kills the Black, hands down no brainier...


----------



## kle89

Dang I just ordered the Encore mDSD before I saw this pop up. Wondering if anyone has both of them for comparison?


----------



## SpiderNhan

kle89 said:


> Dang I just ordered the Encore mDSD before I saw this pop up. Wondering if anyone has both of them for comparison?


 
 mDSD isn't on this list, but the divisions might give you some perspective.

 http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/the-darko-dac-index/


----------



## 0rangutan

jmsaxon69 said:


> I have both, the Red kills the Black, hands down no brainier...


 

 Can you elaborate further?
 I have the Black and am very pleased with it so far - would be great to hear which aspects of the Red differ from Black, thanks.


----------



## stuck limo

jmsaxon69 said:


> I have both, the Red kills the Black, hands down no brainier...


 
  


0rangutan said:


> Can you elaborate further?
> I have the Black and am very pleased with it so far - would be great to hear which aspects of the Red differ from Black, thanks.


 
  
 More details, please.


----------



## defguy

jerry1130 said:


> Just got my Dragonfly Red. First impression, it's barely loud enough to drive my SE846 from a Nexus 6p. It only gets loud when android volume control is at 95%. Is there another gain control that I am missing?
> 
> Volume level seems to be app specific, with HF player it was totally fine. When I used the Red with my pc I had do a little digging in settings, went from not really loud enough to more volume than anyone could use. Try the Onkyo HF app or USB Audio Player


----------



## 0rangutan

Try disabling volume normalisation in Spotify (as well as EQ) and see whether that helps.


----------



## jonstatt

My Dragonfly Red is misbehaving so going back. I hear little clicks and pops and sometimes the music is distorted. The clicks and pops change where they happen if I replay the track and gets worse when the device is warm. This is with it connected via an iPhone using a camera connection kit (lightning to USB) connection. Playing the same music directly with the headphone out on the iPhone reveals no distortion or pops and clicks at all. There is no EQ set and this is with direct from CD rips. An example that distorts is Jean Michel-Jarre's Oxygene 7-13 which really surprised me. But the clicks and pops are totally random and playing the same track again they will happen at totally different/random times.
  
 Despite these issues I was still able to evaluate it with my Sennheiser IE800s and to be honest wasn't all that impressed. While it had greater separation, resolution and improved soundstage vs the iPhone output, with the IE800 it sounded overly harsh, which in turn made the mid bass sound repressed. It did offer greater treble and sub-bass extension than the iPhone, particularly with the texture/detail in bass which could be a bit smoothed off with the 6S plus headphone output. However this doesn't get away from the fact that I actually preferred the sound with some tracks from the iPhone rather than the Dragonfly.
  
 Comparing this to the Mojo is a no brainer, the Mojo is in a different league and I wouldn't ever prefer to listen on the direct iPhone headphone output over it. However I was intrigued and hopeful for the Red because it avoids battery charging and can "dangle" off the iPhone while on the train or walking around which isn't practical with the Mojo (which requires you to have a fat pocket or spread the equipment over different pockets).
  
 Disappointed......


----------



## SpiderNhan

jonstatt said:


> My Dragonfly Red is misbehaving so going back. I hear little clicks and pops and sometimes the music is distorted. The clicks and pops change where they happen if I replay the track and gets worse when the device is warm. This is with it connected via an iPhone using a camera connection kit (lightning to USB) connection. Playing the same music directly with the headphone out on the iPhone reveals no distortion or pops and clicks at all. There is no EQ set and this is with direct from CD rips. An example that distorts is Jean Michel-Jarre's Oxygene 7-13 which really surprised me. But the clicks and pops are totally random and playing the same track again they will happen at totally different/random times.
> 
> Despite these issues I was still able to evaluate it with my Sennheiser IE800s and to be honest wasn't all that impressed. While it had greater separation, resolution and improved soundstage vs the iPhone output, with the IE800 it sounded overly harsh, which in turn made the mid bass sound repressed. It did offer greater treble and sub-bass extension than the iPhone, particularly with the texture/detail in bass which could be a bit smoothed off with the 6S plus headphone output. However this doesn't get away from the fact that I actually preferred the sound with some tracks from the iPhone rather than the Dragonfly.
> 
> ...



Have you tried different music players like Onkyo HF Player?


----------



## bb rodriquez

stuck limo said:


> More details, please.




I ordered both from Amazon and did a small side by side comparison (~ 2 hours) yesterday to see witch one I would decide to keep. 

I'm going to keep things fairly brief because I didn't spend a significant amount of time trying to fully define the black vs red, just a fairly quick listening session to help me decide. 

I was using my IPhone 6 Plus > Tidal Lossless > Dragonfly black/red > Astell Kern Rosie universal

To begin with I honestly had a hard time differentiating between the two, but after further listening I started to pick up on the strong points. They both seem to be very musical sounding on my setup. I would say that they both provide a well defined presentation, without making my setup sound too cold or analytical. I wouldn't go as far as to say that either of them add a warm color to the listening experience, but I feel like the Black does add more warmth than the Red. Partially because I feel that the Black is a little bit more mid focused than the Red. Not to say the Red doesn't have great mid reproduction, it is that the Red has a tad more balanced sound. 

Soundstage and image separation are fantastic on both the Red and Black. It is easy to pick out instruments in the mix, even during heavily detailed passages. The Black definitely has a more closed in soundstage compared to the Red. I would say the Black is more like listening to a band in a room, while the Red is more reminiscent of listening to a band from a stage. Because of this I think that the Red is more slightly more detailed and it is easier to pick out instruments in the mix. The Black still has these details, its just a little more narrow. 

Overall for my setup I decided to keep the Black over the Red. Mainly because for my needs and for my setup I didn't find the Red to be worth the $100 price difference. However If I had a larger array of headphones I would use on a portable unit, then I would have definitely have kept the Red. 

I hope this helps!


----------



## stuck limo

That helps lots, thank you!


----------



## 0rangutan

Yes this helps a lot!
 Thanks for taking the time to provide detailed and measured comments on the differences rather than resorting to the previous hyperbole of "the Red kills the Black, hands down no brainier..."


----------



## brent75

Honest question: do you think the Red is too powerful/a bad match for IEMs and the Black would actually be better?


----------



## bb rodriquez

No problem! I know I'm no gifted writer, but I try to give honest feedback 

As to the question of whether the Red is a bad match for IEMs, I don't think that is a bad pairing at all. You might get some low level hiss with extremely high efficient iems, but other than that I didn't notice anything that made the Red a "no no" for strictly iem use. I personally think that the Black is enough, but that's just for me. It's pretty darned great for $100.


----------



## jonstatt

spidernhan said:


> Have you tried different music players like Onkyo HF Player?


 

 Not the Onkyo player, but I did try with Qobuz and it's the same. Qobuz even sends through correctly for the hi-res content changing the LED color of the Dragonfly


----------



## Dadracer

I have just tried out my brand new Dragonfly Black with CCK and iPhone 5S and via Meze 99 Classics streaming Tidal Hifi and one of my only hi res files on Onkyo HF Player. It sounds excellent when you consider the price and I will try and find time to compare it to my ifi Audio stack which got me into Tidal in the first place! Has anyone combined their new DF with a Jitterbug? I tried it briefly but I could not hear much difference..........maybe I need to spend a bit more time on it.
  
 This will make travelling much more enjoyable now, at least as far as decent quality music goes.


----------



## brent75

dadracer said:


> I have just tried out my brand new Dragonfly Black with CCK and iPhone 5S and via Meze 99 Classics streaming Tidal Hifi and one of my only hi res files on Onkyo HF Player. It sounds excellent when you consider the price and I will try and find time to compare it to my ifi Audio stack which got me into Tidal in the first place! Has anyone combined their new DF with a Jitterbug? I tried it briefly but I could not hear much difference..........maybe I need to spend a bit more time on it.
> 
> This will make travelling much more enjoyable now, at least as far as decent quality music goes.


 
 I had some Amazon credits, so I decided to order the Jitterbug + Dragontail extender just to try them. The Jitterbug to see if I can notice an audible improvement, and the extender just because I don't like the stress on my laptop USB when I have the Dragonfly sticking out + the headphones plugged into that. I'll report back.


----------



## jmsaxon69

Guys I'm not sure how I can be more clear about the black vs red issue. The red is better in every way. I can't make it any more plain and simple. I'd pay $400 for the red even if the black was still $99


----------



## zolom

Did anyone try the Red or Black with the Samsung S7?
 Does it support the native android players and Spotify streaming without the need for applications such as USB Player Pro?
  
 Thanks


----------



## canali

jmsaxon69 said:


> Guys I'm not sure how I can be more clear about the black vs red issue. The red is better in every way. I can't make it any more plain and simple. I'd pay $400 for the red even if the black was still $99


 
 and the red is only $100 more...a mere $100
 so it's not like it's a 3x price jump up to the mojo.
  
 to me for that price and to sidestep fud (fear uncertainty and doubt) it's a no brainer: Red
 betcha' a yr of sales for audioquest will show the red outsells the black 2-3x to 1
  
 hoping to pick this up soon...


----------



## brent75

canali said:


> and the red is only $100 more...so it's not like it's a jump up to a mojo price.
> to me for that price and to sidestep fud (fear uncertainty and doubt) it's a no brainer: Red
> betcha' a yr of sales for audioquest will show the red outsells the black 2-3x to 1


 
 Yeah, that's why I pulled the trigger on Red (and glad I did as I love it). I don't use am amp with IEMs, because the only time I use my Westone W30s is at the gym or when mowing...so sound quality is not of utmost importance, and I probably wouldn't even notice the difference anyway. Instead, I use it on couch w/ laptop + full size cans (right now Hifiman HE400S). They're already pretty efficient, BUT I wanted something that would work in case I decide to get a thirstier can down the road.
  
 My other headphone usage is "out and about" which is basically when I walk the dogs at night. I ordered Sine + Cipher cable, and am going to compare/contrast Cipher vs Red to see what my thoughts are on convenience/portability/etc.
  
 Have you found the color-change of your dragon to be accurate? I've found it usually is when I'm playing via Roon, but inaccurate when playing via iTunes. Then it's always magenta, which is a mistake because I know the sample rate is not as high as it indicates. I can't tell if that's the fault of Dragonfly or the fault of iTunes.


----------



## Dadracer

It is an interesting time and great to watch how this whole area of Hi Fi progresses. I have a traditional system with valves and vinyl and had never considered anything that was not a physical medium. Then I put a toe in the Tidal water (pun intended) with an ifi Audio iDSD micro which grew into a little stack beside my laptop and now soon to be Aries Mini. The sound quality of the micro system is much better than you can expect and close enough to the main system that most days I don't feel the need to fire it up. Now that I am going back to travelling an even microer system is needed. I had ruled out the Dragonfly as it wouldn't work with an iPhone, but now thanks to Red and Black versions.........well it would be rude not to!
  
 I have only had an hour or so to play but am very impressed so far via Tidal Hi Fi but as you mention the options are becoming better with each passing day and yet the quality is so good.


----------



## 0rangutan

I would anticipate a number of Dragonfly clones over the next 12 months, all managing iPhone level power requirements.
What will be interesting is to see if anyone goes for an all-in-one device that includes the Apple lightning cable and/or Android OTG cable built in, further simplifying things.


----------



## Dadracer

0rangutan said:


> I would anticipate a number of Dragonfly clones over the next 12 months, all managing iPhone level power requirements.
> What will be interesting is to see if anyone goes for an all-in-one device that includes the Apple lightning cable and/or Android OTG cable built in, further simplifying things.


 
 I had discussions with a number of cable & dac companies about producing a better CCK but it seems they are stuck due to Apple preventing it as they want to have full control over such connections. Not to say that someone can't find a work around of course..................


----------



## 0rangutan

dadracer said:


> I had discussions with a number of cable & dac companies about producing a better CCK but it seems they are stuck due to Apple preventing it as they want to have full control over such connections. Not to say that someone can't find a work around of course..................




Hmmm. But given that the Oppo HA-2 works without the CCK, presumably it is possible to build an all-in-one device that doesn't require the CCK? I presume that it just(!) needs to be Apple MFI certified.
Also, Apple's policies wouldn't prevent an Android model


----------



## west0ne

0rangutan said:


> Hmmm. But given that the Oppo HA-2 works without the CCK, presumably it is possible to build an all-in-one device that doesn't require the CCK? I presume that it just(!) needs to be Apple MFI certified.
> Also, Apple's policies wouldn't prevent an Android model


 
 HiFimeDIY already do a device that has a USB OTG connector for Android devices, it uses the Sabre ES9023 chip according to the specs. It's £22 and from reviews I've seen it isn't bad. As it's designed for Android it meets the power requirements.


----------



## Dadracer

0rangutan said:


> dadracer said:
> 
> 
> > I had discussions with a number of cable & dac companies about producing a better CCK but it seems they are stuck due to Apple preventing it as they want to have full control over such connections. Not to say that someone can't find a work around of course..................
> ...


 
 That was my point but I probably didn't explain it very well. Apple wont licence a CCK alternative! I wasn't saying anything about Android as I have no experience in this area, but I guess it should be more feasible.
 How does the Oppo transfer digital sound from an idevice without a CCK please?


----------



## 0rangutan

dadracer said:


> How does the Oppo transfer digital sound from an idevice without a CCK please?




Using a Lightning to Micro USB cable as supplied by Oppo.


----------



## Dadracer

Thanks


----------



## YtseJamer

zolom said:


> Did anyone try the Red or Black with the Samsung S7?
> Does it support the native android players and Spotify streaming without the need for applications such as USB Player Pro?
> 
> Thanks


 
  
 I'm also curious to hear if the volume control of Spotify is working well with Android ?


----------



## 0rangutan

ytsejamer said:


> I'm also curious to hear if the volume control of Spotify is working well with Android ?


 

 This worked for me, tested using a Dragonfly Black with Spotify running on a Sony Z3 Tablet, Android 5.1.1.


----------



## Devodonaldson

zolom said:


> Did anyone try the Red or Black with the Samsung S7?
> Does it support the native android players and Spotify streaming without the need for applications such as USB Player Pro?
> 
> Thanks




As an s7 edge user with several dacs including the red I will say that the red does "work" with native android players, HOWEVER, they do not have control for the dragonfly's on board volume control, so even at max android volume, the play volume is relatively low. I use 32ohm headphones so at android max volume it's still lower than my preferred listening volume. It may be ok for iem use. For full functionality, you need a player that has its own usb drivers so that you will be granted access to the on board volume control as well as software volume, such as usb audio player pro


----------



## SpiderNhan

Perhaps a firmware update will fix the volume issues. Is there a thread where we can speak directly to AQ?


----------



## gavinfabl

Red plus Samsung S7 with UAPP plus M50x headphones. Blistering good.


----------



## MikeRight

Hi everybody!
  
 Today I have the opportunity to make some *A/B/C test between Audioquest dragonfly black, red and Mojo *
  
 For that purpose I have used:
 + European iPhone 6+ with camera connector
 + Last generation Macbook pro.
 + Jh Audio Angie IEMs (17 ohms)
 + TIDAL HI-FI
 + 24/96 FLAC files
  
 First of all, *please do not compare both drangonfly with Mojo*.
 It is no fear in both ways becuase Mojo is extremely better in sound quality, and dragonflies in portability.
 And in my opinion neither of them are a one-device-for-all.
  
 Second, *if I have to choose between black and red, I pull the trigger on black without any doubt*.
  
 Here you have my summary.
 + Black offers a little bit *warmer* sound than red.
 + Black offers higher *output volumen* than red. Huge differences at this point.
 + Black offers *more space* than red.
 + iOS *plug and play experience* is superb in both cases.
 + *Portability* is awesome. They offer a true portable rig (no battery, compact and almost invisible)
  
 Hope this would be useful for other head-fiers


----------



## YtseJamer

Can someone tell me if the Red is working with the iPod Touch 5G or 6G and the new apple lightning to usb camera adapter ? (MD821AM/A)
  
 Thanks


----------



## CactusPete23

Hmmm,  Trying to decide whether to buy Red or Black, (or neither at this point).
  
 I find the differing reviews quite confusing...   Can the Audio Player, or the Host Device (phone. or computer model), be affecting the differing reviews?     
  
 ie. Mike (above) says Black has more output volume than the Red...  Which surely it does.  But why, when per AQ Black has 1/2 the output power of the Red.
  
 And some report the Red as excellent, other as extremely poor with clicks/crackle, and others say the red just does not sound good.  
  
 Wish an AQ Tech expert could help us understand what's going on with their devices.


----------



## zolom

> Originally Posstreaming*l* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Red plus Samsung S7 with UAPP plus M50x headphones. Blistering good.


 
 Thanks
 Can you check Streaming via the s7without UAPP?
 Any streaming (preferabely spotify or pandora)
  
 Is any natve player on the s7 possible without UAPP?
  
 Thanks again


----------



## Devodonaldson

cactuspete23 said:


> Hmmm,  Trying to decide whether to buy Red or Black, (or neither at this point).
> 
> I find the differing reviews quite confusing...   Can the Audio Player, or the Host Device (phone. or computer model), be affecting the differing reviews?
> 
> ...




I don't know about the black because I haven't tried it. Based on the specs regarding the output, I don't see how the black could be louder. But as far as playing on my Android device with UAPP,which has access to the hardware volume control of the dac as well as the software volume control of the app, with my 32ohm V-moda m-100,k keeping software volume at 100% I can get to step 15 of 20 on the hardware volume before feeling like it is just too loud for my ears or my headphones. With my more power hungry AKG Q701 at 62 ohm impedance, I can still play them unamped with good volume. About step 18 of 20. Clean, neutral sound. I don't sense any extra color from the dac.i feel the sound signature is clearly based on the headphones I am choosing to play from the device,which is what I wanted. Haven't had the chance to connect my Cayin C5 amp yet as I haven't had the need for the extra power. Before this I was using a fiio k1 connected to a USB power hub to override Android not playing the device due to the 130+ mah draw. The dragonfly red is definitely more neutral, cleaner/clearer sounding. Much lower power draw.240 minutes playing my locally stored flac files,with phone on wifi. Phone went from 100% to 77%.


----------



## Devodonaldson

zolom said:


> Thanks
> Can you check Streaming via the s7without UAPP?
> Any streaming (preferabely spotify or pandora)
> 
> ...



 I've personally streamed Google play music, slacker radio, iHeartRadio,and watched Netflix using the red. It plays, but at a much lower volume due to Android not accessing the hardware volume control of the dac. With my V-moda m-100 I needed to also connect my fiio e06 to get sufficient volume. with iem,with a lower draw,i do not see using the red on stock Android as an issue


----------



## CactusPete23

-> Devodonaldson
  
 Thanks for sharing your experience.  It seems that people using UAPP are getting better sound quality and volume from their Red Dragonflys.
  
 But MikeRight is for some reason getting more volume from the Black.   Could his Player, not be accessing the total output capability of the Red ? Something with Tidal or the Apple device?   
  
 I am surprised that AQ would make something that is not compatible with Apple devices.


----------



## SpiderNhan

The differences in MikeRight's volume levels could be related to how Black and Red control their output. Black is analog. Red is digital.


----------



## Dadracer

Just to throw another question onto the pile. Has anyone else tried the AQ Red or Black with the AQ Jitterbug in the chain? I have tried it with the Black but not hearing any significant difference.


----------



## brent75

dadracer said:


> Just to throw another question onto the pile. Has anyone else tried the AQ Red or Black with the AQ Jitterbug in the chain? I have tried it with the Black but not hearing any significant difference.


 
 My Jitterbug shows up Sunday, and I'll test it with my Red and report back.
  
 Per the earlier discussion, I don't see any way the Black would be louder than Red (unless there was something else at play).


----------



## Stillhart

Anyone know whether the Black or the 1.2 would be preferable with the Momentum On-ear?


----------



## brent75

stillhart said:


> Anyone know whether the Black or the 1.2 would be preferable with the Momentum On-ear?


 
 I don't think there's any doubt that Black would beat it quite handily. For one, you can't even use 1.2 with portable (at least iPhone) whereas you can w/ the new ones.
  
 I think the debate would (or should) be Black vs Red, vs Black/Red vs 1.2.


----------



## Stillhart

brent75 said:


> I don't think there's any doubt that Black would beat it quite handily. For one, you can't even use 1.2 with portable (at least iPhone) whereas you can w/ the new ones.
> 
> I think the debate would (or should) be Black vs Red, vs Black/Red vs 1.2.


 
  
 Thanks, that's perfect!  Much appreciated.


----------



## MikeRight

cactuspete23 said:


> -> Devodonaldson
> 
> Thanks for sharing your experience.  It seems that people using UAPP are getting better sound quality and volume from their Red Dragonflys.
> 
> ...




I performed tests with tidal, iTunes and elmedia player and Tuneshell for flac files. And all from iPhone and Mac. The output volume were the same in all cases. So the difference are not in players.


----------



## MikeRight

Besides I asked the dealer why such difference when as everybody I expected the opposite (red louder than black). He did not know the answer. 

I bet on analog vs digital volume. 

But in general and not taking into account that issue, I still prefer the sound, the scene and the price of the black one.


----------



## leaky74

dadracer said:


> Just to throw another question onto the pile. Has anyone else tried the AQ Red or Black with the AQ Jitterbug in the chain? I have tried it with the Black but not hearing any significant difference.


 

 I'm using a Jitterbug with the Red, a Schiit Magni 2 Uber with a macbook air & audioquest nighthawks. The red definitely benefits more from the jitterbug than the Mojo. For me you could throw a hat over the performance of the red with JB vs the Mojo.
  
 For info. I added a second JB into the other USB port on my mac (same bus); the effect is much (much), more subtle than the one direct in the chain.


----------



## leaky74

leaky74 said:


> I'm using a Jitterbug with the Red, a Schiit Magni 2 Uber with a macbook air & audioquest nighthawks. The red definitely benefits more from the jitterbug than the Mojo. For me you could throw a hat over the performance of the red with JB vs the Mojo.
> 
> For info. I added a second JB into the other USB port on my mac (same bus); the effect is much (much), more subtle than the one direct in the chain.


 

 P.S. The JB in the above set up (with or without an amp), greatly improves clarity & seperation in my opinion.


----------



## CactusPete23

Hey MikeRight,
  
 I have ZERO expertise... Just trying to figure out if I should buy a AQ DF Red or Black...
  
 Found this on AQ Website.  
  
 http://www.audioquest.com/usb_digital_analog_converter/faqs
  
 You may no longer have the RED to test but the first answer explains how to utilize the 64bit volume control with i-Tunes and a MAC.  Would be interesting to know if the RED either had more volume, or somewhat better sound following their suggested method of volume control.
  
 Funny that dealer did not have any idea about volume, or at least where to send a customer for advice...


----------



## CactusPete23

-> MikeRight...
  
  
 Tried posting a link to AQ website's FAQ's for USB DACs...  But posting was rejected because it had a link...
  
 Here is copy of what they say:
  
*How do I set volume level when using DragonFly? *
 When using DragonFly with headphones, powered speakers, or a power amplifier, it’s best to start at a low volume until the desired volume level is achieved. When using DragonFly in this “variable output mode” we recommend the following steps:

• Music player application (such as iTunes®) volume control should be set to maximum.
 • Computer’s main (operating system) volume control should be set to 25% of maximum.
 • Adjust to desired volume using the computer’s main volume control.

When the music player’s volume is set to maximum and the computer’s main volume control is used, DragonFly’s onboard 64-position analog-domain volume control is able to preserve full resolution and maximum sound quality.

DragonFly is also capable of being employed as a traditional fixed-output source component (such as a CD, DVD or Blu-ray player), and can be connected to a standard input on a receiver or preamplifier. For this application, both the music player’s volume control and the main operating system volume control should be set to maximum. This “fixed output mode” allows your audio or AV system’s volume control to be in charge.


----------



## Devodonaldson

cactuspete23 said:


> -> MikeRight...
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I'm not familiar with iPhone,but I know that on Android,unless you are using UAPP or an unlocked version of Only player, you do not have access to the dragonfly volume control control,only the music player control. So if I use Tidal or Spotify, I'm not getting full volume. I use Tidal through UAPP to get the digital volume control with the player volume at max and being able to vary the volume on the dragonfly


----------



## bb rodriquez

mikeright said:


> Hi everybody!
> 
> Today I have the opportunity to make some *A/B/C test between Audioquest dragonfly black, red and Mojo*
> 
> ...




+1 on Mike's findings. This is how I found the red to black comparison to be. Also on my iPhone the black had a much higher volume output vs the red. But as another mentioned that may because the output is analog instead of digital. 

Both Dragonflies are great little units for portable use. If you have the money for the red I would say go for it, it is really nice. But I will have to say that the law of diminishing returns applies to the Red. You will not get 2x the performance out of it compared to the black. Either one you choose will perform extremely well


----------



## MikeRight

Thanks for your answer. 
But in iOS is not possible to do that because there is only one volume accessible. 

Changing TIDAL or iTunes Volume you change the whole system volume.


----------



## bb rodriquez

I was actually just confirming that the black had a higher output volume than the red for others who were still making the decision to buy. In case some thought that it might be a setting or a fluke, coming from an iPhone that is.


----------



## Dadracer

leaky74 said:


> dadracer said:
> 
> 
> > Just to throw another question onto the pile. Has anyone else tried the AQ Red or Black with the AQ Jitterbug in the chain? I have tried it with the Black but not hearing any significant difference.
> ...


 
 Ah ok and thanks for the feedback. I was mostly thinking about the JB in a mobile system with CCK or OTG. Perhaps there is less for the JB to do in a mobile system with battery power and so much going on in a laptop that in makes more of a difference but that is conjecture on my part


----------



## drykoke

Just received my Dragonfly Red today. My existing portable amp/DAC is Cambridge Audio DAC Magic XS.
  
 Pros: This is the first time I have heard my Sennheiser HD 600 sound so good! I know it is a difficult headphone (and can sound lethargic and undynamic), but the Red just infuses it with rhythmic energy, awash with treble detail and huge, vivid soundstage.
  
 Cons: There are some big problems with Android compatibility. I have only tested extensively with Samsung Galaxy Tab 2 (Lollipop 5.1.1) but have some other Android phones that I will get round to testing next week.
 Spotify, Google Play music, etc. do not work at all.
 Onkyo HF Music Player has great sound quality, but there are frequent crackles, drop outs, and other interruptions.
  
 Shame about the Android issues, otherwise I love the Red!


----------



## tommo21

Yep...unfortunatly this is not the solution for androidusers as advertised. Not working on Nexus 6p as stated earlier in the thread. They need to change what they advertise from working on most Android phones to working on just a few. Ok, it works....but it really should work on the whole platform, not via certain apps. 

It works like a charm on Windows though, but I wanted an all platform solution. Especially for phones.


----------



## MikeRight

tommo21 said:


> Yep...unfortunatly this is not the solution for androidusers as advertised. Not working on Nexus 6p as stated earlier in the thread. They need to change what they advertise from working on most Android phones to working on just a few. Ok, it works....but it really should work on the whole platform, not via certain apps.
> 
> It works like a charm on Windows though, but I wanted an all platform solution. Especially for phones.




I think today it s is quite impossible to perform a high quality audio solution compatible with all android ecosystem. 

Recently I asked Audeze regarding future versions of his cipher cable for Android and they answer the same I mentioned before


----------



## brent75

@bb rodriquez -- great to see another KCer on the board. We need a DragonFly Royal Blue!


----------



## tommo21

mikeright said:


> I think today it s is quite impossible to perform a high quality audio solution compatible with all android ecosystem.
> 
> Recently I asked Audeze regarding future versions of his cipher cable for Android and they answer the same I mentioned before


 

 Well, if they can't manage it to work with "barebones" android like in the Nexus phones, then why say they have managed to get it working on most android phones?
  
 What I get now is barely enough to use for line-out.
  
 But I guess it's the same problem as with windows driver for UAC2 Microsoft and Google both sit with the solution, but don't bother doing anything about it.
  
 Fortunately I've got an Ipod Touch 6 for music use.....but my CCK- cable didn't work(cheap ebay type), so need to get a new original one.


----------



## YtseJamer

tommo21 said:


> Fortunately I've got an Ipod Touch 6 for music use.....but my CCK- cable didn't work(cheap ebay type), so need to get a new original one.


 
  
 Do you know if the new apple lightning to usb camera adapter is compatible with the iPod Touch 5G or 6G ?
  
 The new model number is : MD821AM/A
  
 http://9to5mac.com/2015/12/22/iphone-lightning-to-usb-camera-adapter/


----------



## bb rodriquez

brent75 said:


> @bb rodriquez
> -- great to see another KCer on the board. We need a DragonFly Royal Blue! :wink_face:




Lol I would buy that in a heartbeat!


----------



## leaky74

dadracer said:


> Ah ok and thanks for the feedback. I was mostly thinking about the JB in a mobile system with CCK or OTG. Perhaps there is less for the JB to do in a mobile system with battery power and so much going on in a laptop that in makes more of a difference but that is conjecture on my part




Never really thought to try to be honest as I assumed the phones lightning port is subject to much less noise than a laptop USB?

I've just quickly tried the JB with the CCK, red & iPhone 6s Plus. I'd need to spend a bit more time but immediate impressions are that the JB makes minimal difference in that set up.


----------



## Dadracer

I was trying out the JB as it was just sitting spare on my desk after I got an ifi iP2 for my ifi micro stack. I think that there must be fewer artefacts coming from an iPhone lightning port than a laptop USB for certain. Its just I don't have any data to confirm it.


----------



## tommo21

ytsejamer said:


> Do you know if the new apple lightning to usb camera adapter is compatible with the iPod Touch 5G or 6G ?
> 
> The new model number is : MD821AM/A
> 
> http://9to5mac.com/2015/12/22/iphone-lightning-to-usb-camera-adapter/


 

 It looks like you're right. No lighning cck- support for Ipod Touch 5 and 6.
  
 Then I have no need for the Dragonfly it looks like, so back it goes......what a bummer..


----------



## YtseJamer

tommo21 said:


> It looks like you're right. No lighning cck- support for Ipod Touch 5 and 6.
> 
> Then I have no need for the Dragonfly it looks like, so back it goes......what a bummer..


 
  
 I saw a review on Amazon and the person said that he's using the Red with his iPod Touch.
  
 http://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/R1OIQ7Q1QPLXRP/ref=cm_cr_getr_d_rvw_ttl?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B01DFMV4NQ
  
 Maybe Apple is not supporting the new cable with the iPod Touch for the storage features but it seems to work for streaming audio.


----------



## tommo21

ytsejamer said:


> I saw a review on Amazon and the person said that he's using the Red with his iPod Touch.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/R1OIQ7Q1QPLXRP/ref=cm_cr_getr_d_rvw_ttl?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B01DFMV4NQ
> 
> Maybe Apple is not supporting the new cable with the iPod Touch for the storage features but it seems to work for streaming audio.


 

 I've ordered the new cable, so I'll have a try with that first. Got 30 days to ship it back anyway.
  
 I saw a thread on apple.com from march 1st this year that this new cable you refer to isn't supported on the Ipods, but theres been firmware upgrades since then on the iOS.


----------



## drykoke

Now tested the Red with an very cheap Chinese Android Phone, Doogee X5 Pro, Android 5.1.1.
  
 Spotify working immediately, but volume too soft despite setting it to maximum. Also, lots of of crackles and interruptions on the music.
  
 The only joy I have is with Windows 10 PC, the Red works very smoothly and enjoyably with everything that I've thrown at it.
  
 Conclusion: Don't buy the Red unless you have tested it fully and confirmed compatibility with your Android device.


----------



## GerMan

xstream said:


> I've got the Dragonfly Black and Red as a trial. So far i've just played around with the Black & Red on my Macbook Pro...
> First impression isn't that positive. Actually it sounds worse then directly to my Macbook Pro.
> ...
> A few things i've noticed so far with the BLACK:
> ...


 
  
 Well, to be honest, same experience with the Red here.
  
 I'm quite disappointed. Lots of hype over months, the sound was promised to improve enormously over 1.2. I used to hear with dragonfly 1.2 and AQ jitter bug on PC and could not wait for the new Red to appear. Well the difference is, the Red has more power, is louder, at he same time a bit darker, more veiled. Everything seems to be out of balance, no details, no separation of instruments. The new dragonflies were invented to work with mobile phones imho, that's the hole thing. Users with pc were promised a sound improvement over 1.2 at the same time which I cannot confirm at all and is only a marketing statement. I'm using AKG K-702 headphones, quite a precise and resolving machine. Hearing flac files with JRiver on PC with WASAPI, all settings optimized. Music is no longer flowing somehow. Heard the ifi micro idsd which is a LARGE step forward. The red is a step back to me.
  
 Burning in is never a solution in my experience if a gear doesn't sound good within the first seconds which the Dragonfly 1.2 did! Although there is a certain improvement with burning in a gear, it doesn't turn a bad soundig device into a good sounding device. 
  
 I will return it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Greets GerMan


----------



## brent75

This thread is only 10 pages, and we've already heard that the new Dragonflies turn water to wine...that they suck...that Red runs circles around Black...that Black is best...that separation is amazing...that there is no separation...that it's bright...that it's dark...and everything in between.

So in other words, par for the course for new audio gear.


----------



## YtseJamer

tommo21 said:


> I've ordered the new cable, so I'll have a try with that first. Got 30 days to ship it back anyway.
> 
> I saw a thread on apple.com from march 1st this year that this new cable you refer to isn't supported on the Ipods, but theres been firmware upgrades since then on the iOS.


 
  
 Cool, let us know if it's working


----------



## bb rodriquez

brent75 said:


> This thread is only 10 pages, and we've already heard that the new Dragonflies turn water to wine...that they suck...that Red runs circles around Black...that Black is best...that separation is amazing...that there is no separation...that it's bright...that it's dark...and everything in between.
> 
> So in other words, par for the course for new audio gear.




Seems about average for any thread I read on here haha


----------



## CactusPete23

TO: Drykoke, and others trying to use an android based phone, (higher than 4.0 version) you might want to try the free version of USB Audio Player PRO (UAPP) and see if that works for your external DAC. If the free version works (Limited run time and number of songs, but you can shut down and re-start unlimited number of times); The PRO version is only $8....

Tried this with an OPPO 7a and different DAC and it worked great! Audioquest Dragonfly is listed as Supported by UAPP.

Almost all users of UAPP say the sound is great; and they say that volume is strong with the Red Dragonfly. (Not weak as with some other players on Android)

Search for USB Audio Player Pro and you should get a Google Play page where you can download either the free version (quarter-way down the "expanded info" page)

Would expect even a cheap phone it work with UAPP and a supported DAC. 

I have no association with this Software. Just passing on something to try out...


----------



## musicisthekey

german said:


> Well, to be honest, same experience with the Red here.
> 
> I'm quite disappointed. Lots of hype over months, the sound was promised to improve enormously over 1.2. I used to hear with dragonfly 1.2 and AQ jitter bug on PC and could not wait for the new Red to appear. Well the difference is, the Red has more power, is louder, at he same time a bit darker, more veiled. Everything seems to be out of balance, no details, no separation of instruments. The new dragonflies were invented to work with mobile phones imho, that's the hole thing. Users with pc were promised a sound improvement over 1.2 at the same time which I cannot confirm at all and is only a marketing statement. I'm using AKG K-702 headphones, quite a precise and resolving machine. Hearing flac files with JRiver on PC with WASAPI, all settings optimized. Music is no longer flowing somehow. Heard the ifi micro idsd which is a LARGE step forward. The red is a step back to me.
> 
> ...


 
  
 It just shows that we all hear differently. I absolutely love the Red. I'm using Pono MusicWorld player with WASAPI, PC running Win 10. I like DF 1 and absolutely dislike DF 1.2 because it suffers from digititis and sounds artificial. Audioquest fixed that problem with the Red. It's smooth sounding and yet has lots of details. It's never fatiguing. The Red has the biggest soundstage of any portable i had a chance to audition. I've owned ZX2, Cowon P1, HM901 and 802, Calyx M and I prefer the sound of the Red by a big margin. I also like it more than GO V1 and 2 and Herus, I'll go as far as saying that I prefer the Red to Concero HP. I also had a chance to audition Mojo and I was very impressed with it. Unfortunately, Mojo sounds closed in to my ears. If it didn't sound closed in, I would pick it over the Red. I don't remember the last time I was so excited to come home from work and listen to my music library with a new toy.
  
 Again, YMMV.


----------



## Alwayswantmore

New AQ Drgonfly Red --- Hoping someone might have an answer/solution...
  
 Can't get it to operate at 44.1 KHz:
  
 Got my Red today. Plugged into older Macbook running 10.6.8. Audioquest indicates this as the minimum OS, but it is supported.
  
 Running iTunes Apple lossless AAC (M4a). iTunes says they are 44.1, but the Dragonfly is Magenta, which indicates operation at 96000 Hz. According to the manual it should be running as green (and not running a multiple of the sample rate is not favorable).
  
 Gone through the manual twice. Rebooted computer. Can't find any other settings to fiddle with. Any suggestions greatly appreciated.
  
 Regards, Kent


----------



## brent75

I've never been able to get my Red to change colors on iTunes - it too is always stuck on the same color. Whereas when I play songs via Roon it does accurately change with tracks.

I like the sound of Room better anyway. When I A/B the same track I'll notice on iTunes the bass guitar muddies with the kick drum, whereas with Room there is clear separation and individual notes.

I'm glad AQ threw in a free 60-day trial. Plenty of time to audition. You might explore Roon or Amarra or something like that.


----------



## jerry1130

You need to change the Mac MIDI utilities setting to 44.1 KHz. It's located in your Apps/Utilities folder.


----------



## defbear

I received the Red. I gave it a short test with iphone6+. and Sennheiser ie800 iems. Can't talk about SQ yet, but the ie800's were louder with Red vs plain jane 1/8 output jack on the phone.


----------



## CactusPete23

I saw that you can download the instruction manual for each dragonfly from Audioquest!  i.e.  DragonFly-Red-FlightManual-EN.pdf      It explains which settings to change.     
  
 But somewhere, I read that using itunes, you MAY need to manually re-set the Hz setting.  SO, if you play different bitrates, you need to manually change that setting with Itunes???  
 I also remember that there is a player that will play itunes and automatically adjust the Hz for you.  But I can't find it now.  Sorry, I am not an Apple person....  And that may only be true with an older version of OSX.  But if you only see one color, I'm guessing the Dragonfly is only trying to play that Hz files, because that is the manual setting you gave your MAC...  Or all your files are the same 16/44 or 24/96,  etc


----------



## Alwayswantmore

Yes, thanks. Got it set to 44.1. But only choice is 24 bit, where it should be 16. Not sure if bit depth matters???


----------



## ProleArtThreat

I'll be giving my just arrived Red a spin tomorrow on my iPhone 6 and MacBook Pro with my phones. I'll report back with my impressions. I have a DF 1.0 that I've gotten lots of enjoyment from and am pretty familiar with so I'm curious what, if any, improvements the latest and greatest provides.


----------



## west0ne

I was going to pick up a Red this weekend to pair with my S7 but it looks like my plans have changed for now. One of the selling points of the new Black & Red is that the firmware is upgradeable so hopefully AQ will be able to do something to improve general Android audio compatibility. There are plenty of DACs that do work properly with all audio on Android so we know it's possible; let's just hope it can be done with the hardware in the Black/Red through an update.


----------



## zolom

Same situation here with my S7 edge.


----------



## defbear

I bought the Dragonfly Red just to use with my iPhone6+ Been 'testing' for the last 2 hours with different music and sample rates. There isn't much for iOS beyond Onkyo/Teac player. I bought the full version of Onkyo player a while ago. It works well with the Red. I have a bunch of 16/44 Flac files. When set to 48kHz mode it upsamples everything to 96. You can upsample to 88.2 but 96 gives a bigger soundstage with more detail. It's loud and works with the apps volume control. Lots of fine tuning. I also have some 16/48kHz Flacs with 16/44 on the same playlist. There was some minor sound, I did not quite catch, when changing sample rates. Played mixed sample rate playlists fine. The light works. Green when in iPhones Music. Magenta at 96. This is Exactly what I hoped for. So if you are like me and feel the need to have a DAC on your keychain this is it. My ie800's love it!


----------



## jonstatt

defbear said:


> My ie800's love it!


 
  
 This is why hi-fi is such a fickle thing. As I posted a few pages up, I didn't like the sound of the IE800 on the Red at all. The IE800 is already a bright sounding headphone. Although it has ample bass, it is very revealing in the treble. The Red made it sound even brighter and harsher than the iPhone 6S plus output did. Contrasting this with the Mojo, the Mojo does not have this accentuated treble or harshness and the Mojo's frequency response, if anything, sounds similar to the iPhone's headphone output. For some tracks I simply found it better to use the built-in headphone output on the iPhone, which does a really good job in general with the IE800.than the Red, which kind of defeats the whole point!
  
 I also have the ZX2 and PHA-3 and none of them produce a harshness with the IE800 like the Red does. The red did show its colours by providing better separation, resolution/detail, and the bass was more textured and defined albeit at the expense of sounding a little further back and less impactful than the iPhone output.
  
 The SE846 does better with the Red as the SE846 isn't a bright headphone like the IE800. Nevertheless while the Dragonfly is in a format that is bound to attract many due to its portability and easy of use, the quality wasn't there yet for me. And it is always worth emphasising that the headphone output of the iPhone is pretty darn good to start with. Even some audiophiles take the easy route when travelling around and just plug their favourite IEMs straight into the iPhone.


----------



## drykoke

Further testing on Samsung Galaxy Tab 2, Android 5.1.1:
  
 Doesn't work at all: Spotify, Google Play, VLC media player
  
 Partially works (with crackles and interruptions): Onkyo HF player
  
 Works: UAPP (using hardware volume slider) on free trial
  
 I know that this is going to sound controversial but I think some people might be justifiably unhappy if they had to then buy a third-party app to make their 199 USD Dac work. This needs to be made much more explicit to potential purchasers who are Android users.


----------



## YtseJamer

Wow, I hope that Audioquest will fix the Android incompatibility issues rapidly..


----------



## officerdibble

I have the Red paired with Galaxy S6 running Android 6.0.1 and sounds great with UAPP. But as others have stated only works correctly with this App. I have contacted AQ to find out what they are doing to resolve. If I had known of these major limitations I would of been unlikely to purchase.


----------



## SPLWF

I'm using Black paired with my HTC M9 (running android 6.0) along with my Vmoda M-100 using Poweramp Alpha (recent build 703).  Everything works well, the only issue I have is that I have to disconnect Bluetooth connection to my car for it work, no biggie.  Night a day difference compared to M9's DAC, the black is a bit louder as well.
  
 I've also been using the my gaming PC that's connected to a AV RCVR to power my HD598SE, there is a ton of hissing, even when using Toslink from PC to RCVR.  Using the Black instead of the RCVR, all the hissing is gone, amazing!
  
 http://i688.photobucket.com/albums/vv249/BoostedSupraMK3/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG0102_1_zpshgnwhaou.jpg


----------



## jehugo

Looking for a thinner otg cable. Don't like these fat ones possibly yanking the phone USB around. Suggestions? BTW s7, black, ie800, tidal hi-fi, no problems sounds great.


----------



## canali

i'm surprised AQ doesn't have a rep on here as does Chord or Ifi for their products...so i sent them this email.
 here's hoping someone will come on board.
  
 think given the varied responses to the red dragonfly, for example,
 maybe they can help resolve things here and thus keep the sales' bin and good pr growing.
  
_friendly suggestion: why don't you join the headfi.org forum as does chord and ifi (etc) on headfi.org for their own product threads?_
_ imo that way you build better customer rapport and also resolve people's queries...i'm surprised_
_no one is doing this from AQ, given the popularity of its products. esp with the newly released dragonflys._
_If however someone is, then i apologize for missing that._
  
_i'll post this to headfi.org too_
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/617241/audioquest-dragonfly-review-affordable-outstanding-tiny-dac-amp/2355#post_12563854
  
_http://www.head-fi.org/t/805832/new-dragonfly-black-and-red-discussion/150#post_12563732_
  
_just a friendly headsup to increase good cust relations._
  
_cheers_
_canali_


----------



## CactusPete23

That makes at least 3 requests to AQ for a Tech Expert to join in;. including the 2 that I made..One to INFO@, and One to the AQ USA Sales VP......  
 (Sent 2 and 3 days ago, so far crickets... ie no reply)


----------



## canali

cactuspete23 said:


> That makes at least 3 requests to AQ for a Tech Expert to join in;. including the 2 that I made..One to INFO@, and One to the AQ USA Sales VP......
> (Sent 2 and 3 days ago, so far crickets... ie no reply)


 
 email reply i just received.
  
 cactus pete23 ...i also copied your reply to them.
  
_Thanks JW. _
  
_we are all at the Munich audio show. We'll jump in soon. 

Regards,_  
_Steve Silberman_
_AudioQuest_


----------



## Devodonaldson

jehugo said:


> Looking for a thinner otg cable. Don't like these fat ones possibly yanking the phone USB around. Suggestions? BTW s7, black, ie800, tidal hi-fi, no problems sounds great.




Get a right angle otg cable. Works well,and no worries of added stress on USB port when pocketed,etc.


----------



## defbear

Above I reported my good success with an iPhone 6+ and Dragonfly Red. Time for bad news. I have a Samsung 12.2 Android Tablet. It is still on Kit Kat and I will not upgrade this tablet's OS. It works natively with my Emotiva and Bifrost Dacs. So I can use it for movies, google music, VLC, anything. With my Master 11, Mojo and Ifi idsd micro, I need to use UAPP. This Kitkat Tablet will talk to the Dragonfly and play music but not at usable volume. Others have reported the same problem. I'm surprised. This tablet with UAPP plays on every DAC I have used it on except Dragonfly Red.


----------



## drykoke

defbear said:


> Above I reported my good success with an iPhone 6+ and Dragonfly Red. Time for bad news. I have a Samsung 12.2 Android Tablet. It is still on Kit Kat and I will not upgrade this tablet's OS. It works natively with my Emotiva and Bifrost Dacs. So I can use it for movies, google music, VLC, anything. With my Master 11, Mojo and Ifi idsd micro, I need to use UAPP. This Kitkat Tablet will talk to the Dragonfly and play music but not at usable volume. Others have reported the same problem. I'm surprised. This tablet with UAPP plays on every DAC I have used it on except Dragonfly Red.


 
  
 On my Samsung Galaxy Tab 2 (Lollipop), I had to use the Menu on the top right corner of UAPP to make it show and allow me to slide the dedicated volume control within the app. This managed to solve the problem of the low volume. The volume keys on the Tablet were already set to deliver at Maximum volume, but this didn't work with the Red.
 In my humble opinion, the UAPP method is not a work-around that I would be very happy to live with on a daily basis.


----------



## defbear

drykoke said:


> On my Samsung Galaxy Tab 2 (Lollipop), I had to use the Menu on the top right corner of UAPP to make it show and allow me to slide the dedicated volume control within the app. This managed to solve the problem of the low volume. The volume keys on the Tablet were already set to deliver at Maximum volume, but this didn't work with the Red.
> In my humble opinion, the UAPP method is not a work-around that I would be very happy to live with on a daily basis.


 

 Yes, my volume control on both the upper right hand was up all the way as well as the Android hardware control. Weak volume.


----------



## dacari

I'm happy with my red and I always been obsessed with accurate volume controls, for me the red works well.
 Maybe there is some kind of bug with android's master volume but if the app it doesn't have its own internal volume I highly doubt Audioquest can fix it.


----------



## defbear

defbear said:


> Yes, my volume control on both the upper right hand was up all the way as well as the Android hardware control. Weak volume.


So I fixed my volume issue with my Samsung Android tablet and UAPP. User error here. Tapped the three menu dots and chose hardware volume. It was only 1/3 up. This Dragonfly Red drives my new ZMF Omni's LTA Edition headphones really well. Almost too well. So far DFR has worked with iOS, OS X Yosemite, Windows 10 and Android with UAPP.


----------



## zolom

The main issue for me is not whether UAPP is fully or partially operational with the Black, but rather the Black's  ability to fully support Android (especially non rooted Samsung S7)  native players and mostly streaming via Spotify. without the need for (3rd party's) UAPP or such.
  
 Currently there are score of USB DAC/AMPs capable to interface directly (OTG) to the S7 with no need for 3rd party's solutions.
  
 The Black appeals to me due to its low power and high sound quality characteristics.
  
 Thanks


----------



## drykoke

zolom said:


> The main issue for me is not whether UAPP is fully or partially operational with the Black, but rather the Black's  ability to fully support Android (especially non rooted Samsung S7)  native players and mostly streaming via Spotify. without the need for (3rd party's) UAPP or such.
> 
> Currently there are score of USB DAC/AMPs capable to interface directly (OTG) to the S7 with no need for 3rd party's solutions.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I completely agree. It is disappointing to hear about Red's compatibility issues with mainstream models such as the Nexus 6P and Samsung S7. Particularly if other manufacturers of DAC/Amps are able to overcome these difficult Android issues.
 Such a shame because the Red really makes some of my headphones sing, but I am only able to use it from my Windows 10 Home PC running Spotify. Which means no joy for me during my business trip in the next couple of days, I'll just have to put up with the rather poor headphone from my phone.


----------



## dacari

Is there any usb DAC/amp with internal volume  but without physical buttons or knob thats works natively with android, with all apps?


----------



## zolom

Tried those with: Galaxy S4, Galaxy S7 , LG G3, LG G4:
  
 - HRT dSp --- quite good
  
 - HiFimeDIY
  
 - UD120 (tried with LG)


----------



## CactusPete23

-> Zolom      I think the DAC's you list as working, do not have any internal volume controls?      So that may be a key?    I've also heard that the MOJO (a ~$600 dac), does not work with all newer android phones, even though it does have buttons for volume control.   So even 3X the Price Portable Dac's are not fully "plug 'n play" with all DAC's   ...    And from what I understand, even with newer versions of Android, Some Phones do not allow all AUDIO Functions on USB Port...   I guess almost all phone makers can "play" with the Android?  Though thought Nexus was "unadulterated" Android, so would have expected their USB ports to be Audio Ready (i.e. Support Native USB Audio).    
 I am sure some other folks understand all this much better than me, and can surely explain it better, (And correct anything that I'm saying that is flat out wrong.)  )


----------



## dacari

zolom said:


> Tried those with: Galaxy S4, Galaxy S7 , LG G3, LG G4:
> 
> - HRT dSp --- quite good
> 
> ...


 
  
 Any of these have internal volume? I think the problem is get to work properly the internal volume, it seems that the master volume of Android is not enough.
  
 I owned the FiiO K1 and it had more compatibility than Red but I think K1 hasn't a dedicated volume inside.


----------



## wong0190

[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.870588)]- DF Red works on Nexus 6P with or without UAPP.[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.870588)][/color]
 [color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.870588)]- If no sound when using other apps (other than UAPP), try unplug the OTG cable or DF Red, plug it back on, then test again.[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.870588)][/color]
 [color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.870588)]- When using Google Music, DF Red always shows magenta even though it should be green.[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.870588)][/color]
 [color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.870588)]- Correct me if I'm wrong, to get the best sound out of UAPP, set volume to max, use hardware volume to adjust the listening volume.[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.870588)][/color]
 [color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.870588)][/color]
 [color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.870588)]P.S. Make sure using genuine Type C OTG cable, otherwise it might damage the hardware.[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.870588)][/color]
 [color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.870588)][/color]


----------



## kennybobenny

After a few days of testing after 24 hour burnin as suggested I just pushed the return button for the Dragonfly Red. I don't typically listen through my iPhone 6s but I needed a replacement for my AK240 (that I loved). I knew it was going to be a disappointment going from the 240 to my 6s so I decided to supplement with the Dragonfly Red. I have no prior experience with any dragonflys. After a few days of A/B testing the difference between with or without the red attached is so minor that it's not worth the extra weigh and money. Before I got the AK240 I had the AK100 (latest model) and the cord mojo. I dislike having rubber bands holding things together so I went for the all in one (for me) 240 solution. After an almost fatal car crash and four out of six months without pay I decided to sell the AK240 and pay medical bills. Ok back to the Red. I loved the size. The price was fair. I got popping sounds on my 6s if I wasn't in airplane mode. Instrument separation was better without the Red attached. With Red attached there was a somewhat fuller sound. 
Grados were used but the are heavily modded and don't have the sometimes ear defending highs that Grados can have. Onkyo app. Amber Rubarths How to get by and Steely Dan's Deacon Blues as primary songs. 
Only my experience and opinion. Your mileage will most likely vary.


----------



## canali

well it seems increasingly clear that AQ having a presence on here to help with configuration and symmetry issues (etc)
 will be most welcomed...and just for AQ to get some feedback....at the very least for those in AQ tech support
 to use in developing further firmware upgrades.
  
 for such a well reviewed product by Darko (recently) and its release at the CES show (Jan),
 you would not think that there would be such inconsistency of SQ
 esp for a product that was heralded to now work well seamlessly with most (if not all) IOS and android devices.
  
_Thanks. _
  
_we are all at the Munich audio show. We'll jump in soon. 

Regards,_  
_Steve Silberman_
_AudioQuest_

  
 Quote:


canali said:


> i'm surprised AQ doesn't have a rep on here as does Chord or Ifi for their products...so i sent them this email.
> here's hoping someone will come on board.
> 
> think given the varied responses to the red dragonfly, for example,
> ...


----------



## CactusPete23

Agree with you Canali...  
  
 I have seen several people say that they get clicks/pops with the Onkyo App....  
  
 For Sound Quality, UAPP seems to get the best reviews...


----------



## canali

cactuspete23 said:


> Agree with you Canali...
> 
> I have seen several people say that they get clicks/pops with the Onkyo App....
> 
> For Sound Quality, UAPP seems to get the best reviews...


 
 mr silerman does make ref to that app in an interview at the CES show, too.
  
 drag for me that it doesn't make much diff for streaming (which is what i mostly listen to)
  
 any good apps for that one?


----------



## Hubert481

Funny to read that everybody gets different results
http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/the-darko-dac-index/


----------



## CactusPete23

Although the AQ website lists several music players...  Below in *blue *is what it says about  connecting to ANDROID Devices in Both the Red and Black "Flight Manuals":  Basically only UAPP is mentioned in the manuals that come with the Red and Black. 
  
*For Use with Android™ Devices
 DragonFly Red will work with most Android devices running on Lollipop OS (and some Android devices running on KitKat), provided that the device manufacturer has adhered to the USB specification and implementation, and supports audio over USB. To verify that your Android device complies with isochronous USB audio, download and run USB Host Check: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.tauruslabs.usbhostcheck.*

*In our early pre-production testing, we found that some Android devices (4.1 OS and newer) do not provide native support for audio over USB. If you find that your Android device (4.1 or newer) does not support audio over USB, we ask that you please contact the manufacturer of your device. To determine whether your device supports audio over USB, consult the user manual or visit the manufacturer’s website.*

*For a reliable media player that has its own built-in USB device driver, ensuring reliable connectivity to all USB DACs, we suggest the following application: http://www.extreamsd.com/index.php/2015-07-22-12-01-14/usb-audio-driver. This application is compatible with various audio formats and will manage music on both the Android’s internal memory and inserted SD cards. Additionally, with the phone connected to the Wi-Fi network, this application can find and connect to DLNA servers/libraries. Version 2.2.5 USB Pro Player now supports playback for Tidal Streaming. *(THIS IS WHAT EVERYONE CALLS UAPP- Edit CactusPete23)

*In order to connect your Android device to DragonFly Red:*

*1. Android devices use a USB format known as “OTG” (On the Go). OTG USB ports require a unique 5-pin USB Micro to 4-pin USB A (Female) adaptor. In order to connect an Android device in USB Host Mode to a DAC, an OTG adaptor must be used. See www.audioquest.com/dragontailOTG*

*2. Select the appropriate cable for your Android device. AudioQuest offers a wide range of high-performance USB cables, with connectors suitable for Android devices (such as USB Micro and USB Mini). For more information, go to the USB Cables section at http://www.audioquest.com/digital-interconnects/. In some rare cases, a proprietary connection or adaptor will be required to transmit audio over USB. (Consult your device’s user manual or visit the manufacturer’s website.)*

*3. Turn down the volume on your Android device to at least 50%. *(Not exactly clear what this means... Device volume?  OR Player APP's volume?)

*4. Select your desired music/media app, and then select your desired song or stream.*

*5. Adjust volume to desired level. *(With the App? Or also adjust the Device Volume?)
  
  
 Think I may get a Red, if we can get someone from AQ, maybe even Mr Silberman himself, to help explain some of the issues with Sound Quality that users are having.


----------



## kennybobenny

hubert481 said:


> Funny to read that everybody gets different results
> http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/the-darko-dac-index/


Actually this article is what pushed me over the edge to but the AQR. Even in a controlled environment with everyone using the same piece of equipment I believe we would all walk away with varing opinions. Since it's not a life or dead situation then subjectivity is a welcome friend. I had a friend that when approached about a movie he would see he would ask "Did you see Roadhouse". ...........


----------



## Signal2Noise

I've just ordered the Red for use with (hopefully) 950XL. May end up ordering Black later to hear the comparison and use it as a backup/travel.


----------



## GerMan

I


----------



## GerMan

hubert481 said:


> Funny to read that everybody gets different results
> http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/the-darko-dac-index/


 
 Indeed funny. Audioquest Dragonfly Red two levels above good reputed Rega DAC. Paper is patient.


----------



## Bianci1969

Hello All –
  
 First, we'd like to thank everyone one who's made the decision to purchase any of our products. we really appreciate all of the support. I'd also like to give a shout-out to Canali – he brought this thread to our attention. 
  
 Those of us who can thoughtfully jump in and answer questions have been on the road for the last ten days, attending the Munich High-End Show as well as some other work related travels. I'll be back home in Colorado late Tuesday night. If you can sit tight until Tuesday (I should have email on my flight from Frankfurt to Denver) I'll be able to address your questions and concerns. Thanks in advance for your patience. 
  
 Warm regards, 
  
 Steve Silberman
 AudioQuest


----------



## SpiderNhan

Welcome to the thread, Steve!


----------



## canali

Welcome aboard, Steve
  
 Quote:


bianci1969 said:


> Hello All –
> 
> First, we'd like to thank everyone one who's made the decision to purchase any of our products. we really appreciate all of the support. I'd also like to give a shout-out to Canali – he brought this thread to our attention.
> 
> ...


----------



## brent75

My Jitterbug and Dragontail extender arrived today! Will post some impressions later tonight.


----------



## Devodonaldson

wong0190 said:


> - DF Red works on Nexus 6P with or without UAPP.
> - If no sound when using other apps (other than UAPP), try unplug the OTG cable or DF Red, plug it back on, then test again.
> - When using Google Music, DF Red always shows magenta even though it should be green.
> - Correct me if I'm wrong, to get the best sound out of UAPP, set volume to max, use hardware volume to adjust the listening volume.
> ...



 By adjusting the hardware volume,you are adjusting the amplification built into the device. A small adjustment of the hardware volume is a greater overall adjustment on the output volume. I use a combination of 16,32,and 62 ohm headphones with the dfr and UAPP. I've found more fine adjustments by setting software volume to 25% then adjusting hardware volume to the point to where I feel it is at a good enjoyable level. From your there I am able to use the software volume to fine tune volume adjustments based on the song or my current mood. Each headphone is going to have a different level of hardware volume, but the software volume is your go to for fine adjustment. A single step on hardware with software maxed could be more than you were looking for.


----------



## Devodonaldson

cactuspete23 said:


> Agree with you Canali...
> 
> I have seen several people say that they get clicks/pops with the Onkyo App....
> 
> For Sound Quality, UAPP seems to get the best reviews...


 I used both only and UAPP on my s7 edge and dfr without issue. My sole reason for switching to UAapp was to get the streaming flac use with the dfr using Tidal. Knowing that I could stream flac with full use of the dac, urged me to cancel my Google play subscription and switch to Tidal. 320mbps mp3 vs Flac, unlimited streaming.....no contest. Thnx UAPP and Tidal.


----------



## Devodonaldson

zolom said:


> The main issue for me is not whether UAPP is fully or partially operational with the Black, but rather the Black's  ability to fully support Android (especially non rooted Samsung S7)  native players and mostly streaming via Spotify. without the need for (3rd party's) UAPP or such.
> 
> Currently there are score of USB DAC/AMPs capable to interface directly (OTG) to the S7 with no need for 3rd party's solutions.
> 
> ...



It's not so much the dragonfly. DACs like the fiio k1 do not have an internal volume control,so as long as they are being powered by your device, they are simply set to ON. The dfr has a, I believe, 64 step internal volume control. Android doesn't access said volume control so I'm guessing that using default Android drivers the volume is set to low. If I'm using an Android based player I connect an amp to get the desired volume. Not optimal,no, but the quality is still there. This will have to do until an update hopefully changes this. Here's to hoping


----------



## morgul

How does black and red compare to an Oppo HA -2 in terms of sound quality?


----------



## Hubert481

Depends on the person . - there are so different reviews, i only can believe to my own ears.


----------



## 0rangutan

morgul said:


> How does black and red compare to an Oppo HA -2 in terms of sound quality?


 

 ​From my own experience, sound quality was broadly similar but I preferred the more open sound of the Black over the thicker sound of the HA-2.  The Dragonfly's portability is leagues ahead and the Black also wakes from sleep properly, whereas the HA-2 always required me to unplug and re-insert the lightning cable.


----------



## Ultrainferno

I got my DragonF's in Munich, look forward to testing them


----------



## morgul

0rangutan said:


> ​From my own experience, sound quality was broadly similar but I preferred the more open sound of the Black over the thicker sound of the HA-2.  The Dragonfly's portability is leagues ahead and the Black also wakes from sleep properly, whereas the HA-2 always required me to unplug and re-insert the lightning cable.




That's interesting because the HA-2 is more expensive, especially here in France, but I feel more attracted by Oppo Ha-2 than dragonfly red (or black). I guess you had to unplug and replug when the device had gone to sleep, could you detail in which cases it happened ?


----------



## 0rangutan

morgul said:


> That's interesting because the HA-2 is more expensive, especially here in France, but I feel more attracted by Oppo Ha-2 than dragonfly red (or black). I guess you had to unplug and replug when the device had gone to sleep, could you detail in which cases it happened ?


 

 ​It happened every time that I left music not playing on my iPhone 6 for more than a few minutes (precise length unrecorded).  I would wake my phone (pressing home button) and click play, only for the sound to come out of the phone's speaker.  I would need to unplug and re-plug the cable for the iPhone to re-detect the HA-2.   I may have been doing something wrong but I couldn't find a fix for this and it really detracted from my enjoyment of the device.


----------



## brent75

morgul said:


> How does black and red compare to an Oppo HA -2 in terms of sound quality?


 
 I owned the HA-2 previously, and own the Red now. I actually prefer the sound of the Red -- doesn't feel as harsh/sharp in the upper registers (to my ears).
  
 Separation on both is nice. If you're into bass boost that's nice to have b/c it's not an absurd increase like some dac/amps out there. But I personally don't like to use bass boost, and just want it to be there regardless.
  
 The reason I moved on from HA-2 was not only because of sound, but because at $300 I wanted it to REALLY perform. I came to realize that for my needs, the $300 price point was sort of a no-man's land. And that I personally either needed to move up to the Mojo, or down to something else. My reasoning: I'd be willing to go up in price and put up with a clunky device to to strap to my player and continually have to recharge it if the sound was to die for. (the HA-2 didn't have that sound). Otherwise, I felt I could drop down in size/price and increase the convenience factor with options like the Red.
  
 I'm happy to report that I've achieved the 2nd one, and that I actually happen to like the sound even better than my HA-2. It seems more "fun" to me.
  
 *Forgot to add -- I too was super annoyed with constantly having to reconnect my iPhone to my HA-2. It felt like it was dropped constantly.


----------



## 0rangutan

brent75 said:


> *Forgot to add -- I too was super annoyed with constantly having to reconnect my iPhone to my HA-2. It felt like it was dropped constantly.


 
  
 Glad that its not just me!


----------



## morgul

0rangutan said:


> Glad that its not just me!


 
 Yes that seems very annoying, as I project to use it mostly at my work's open space, I wouldn't like that issue. Also the dragonflys are much cheaper, I'm very tempted !


----------



## zolom

devodonaldson said:


> It's not so much the dragonfly. DACs like the fiio k1 do not have an internal volume control,so as long as they are being powered by your device, they are simply set to ON. The dfr has a, I believe, 64 step internal volume control. Android doesn't access said volume control so I'm guessing that using default Android drivers the volume is set to low. If I'm using an Android based player I connect an amp to get the desired volume. Not optimal,no, but the quality is still there. This will have to do until an update hopefully changes this. d that the Black does n


 
  
 Is the Black more compatible with android phones?
  
 Did someone try playing Spotify on an S7 (edge) via the Black?


----------



## Ultrainferno

Both are as compatible, it's the output that's different


----------



## Torq

I picked up the Red version this weekend and so far am very impressed; it's very smooth, carries extremely good detail, seems nicely balanced from a frequency range perspective with no particular emphasis or de-emphasis anywhere, is doing an impressive job with my various IEMs (ER-6 excepted) and is generally both enjoyable and engaging to listen to.
  
 I would say I prefer the output of the Dragonfly to my AK120, particularly into my SE846 (I've never cared for the AK players with that headphone).  I'd put it pretty close to the SE output on the Onkyo DP-X1 also.
  
 It has more than enough power for any of my IEMs and did a very listenable job of driving LCD-2.2c, HE-500 and HD800S.  For sure those last three fair much better with more power on tap, but I wouldn't be at all upset to spend an evening listening to one of those via this little thing,  That said, I look at the Dragonfly as something I'll use purely when traveling.  And for trips where I have company (and therefore much less alone-time to listen to music in) it'll be VERY nice not to have to "lug" the AK120, Mojo, portable battery and so on along.
  
 Works flawlessly from my iPhone 6S, various iPads, and with my Retina MacBook and Retina MacBook Pro (yeah, I know ... I take the smallest/lightest I can get away with for any given trip).  And it's even quite useable with the phone in my pocket while walking ... though typically I use Bluetooth for that sort of listening.
  
 Very happy with it, especially at the price.


----------



## gavinfabl

The DFR is really lovely. I just wish there would be a fix for volume when not using UAPP on an android device. Just not loud enough. I will be writing my review soon and will test it against the iPhone 6S, Huawei P9, LG G5 , Samsung S7 and HTC 10. I am holding off my review as the HTC 10 hasn't arrived yet. It's due any day. I have the other phones ready to test.


----------



## officerdibble

FWIW - I had a reply back from AQ support relating to the Red only working (100%) with UAPP on the Galaxy S6. 
  
 AQ reply:
  
 "These are issues that are not a fault of the DragonFly Red.  Unfortunately there are some limitations inherent with the Android OS and also what the phone manufacturer has enabled on the device.  We are aware currently though of the low volume that seems to be only with Samsung devices.  We are in contact with Samsung concerning this but we have to wait for them to provide an update to their devices to remedy the issue.  Hopefully Samsung will release a software update soon to remedy the low volume.  As for certain streaming services not all can output through the USB Host port.  Tidal as far as we have seen is the only streaming service to allow USB Host output but only through USB Audio Player Pro integration."
  
 One unhappy AQ customer - In my humble opinion they did not make these limitations clear enough... I will be unlikely to purchase from them again and could not recommend to any Android users as compatibility appears to be a lottery unless you are happy with UAPP.


----------



## tommo21

officerdibble said:


> FWIW - I had a reply back from AQ support relating to the Red only working (100%) with UAPP on the Galaxy S6.
> 
> AQ reply:
> 
> ...


 
  
 Well that seals it for me....I'm returning my DF Red, since I can't get it to work with my Nexus 6p, So it's not only a Samsung problem...and when it don't work with the barebones Android, this advertising of it working on most android phone is utter BS. When limited to a 3rd party app to get it to play local files and Tidal it's not good enough. I'm gonna find me a small amp instead.


----------



## iKhaos

tommo21 said:


> Well that seals it for me....I'm returning my DF Red, since I can't get it to work with my Nexus 6p, So it's not only a Samsung problem...and when it don't work with the barebones Android, this advertising of it working on most android phone is utter BS. When limited to a 3rd party app to get it to play local files and Tidal it's not good enough. I'm gonna find me a small amp instead.


 
 Before you do, could you try something?
  
 Go to settings > about phone > and hit 'build number' 7 times.
 Go to developer options, scroll down to 'Select USB Configuration' and select 'Audio Source.'
 Does this make any difference? I've got a Nexus 6P too and am just curious to see if this fixes the problem.


----------



## tommo21

ikhaos said:


> Before you do, could you try something?
> 
> Go to settings > about phone > and hit 'build number' 7 times.
> Go to developer options, scroll down to 'Select USB Configuration' and select 'Audio Source.'
> Does this make any difference? I've got a Nexus 6P too and am just curious to see if this fixes the problem.


 
 Hi! Already tried this....didn't work
  
 Same low volume...


----------



## iKhaos

tommo21 said:


> Hi! Already tried this....didn't work
> 
> Same low volume...


 
 Ah, that's a real bummer. I was really interested in the Dragonfly Black.
 Thanks a lot for trying it though!


----------



## morgul

I ordered the red dragonfly with a lighting camera adapter and hope I won't be disappointed.


----------



## brent75

morgul said:


> I ordered the red dragonfly with a lighting camera adapter and hope I won't be disappointed.


 
 What phone/computer/player are you going to be using it with? Based on this thread, that will have a big influence on your reactions.
  
 You were the one comparing to HA-2, right? I came from HA-2 and actually prefer sound of Red to it. Plus it's less money, more portable, doesn't require a charge to work and is firmware upgradeable. Killer combo (if it checks the other boxes for you).


----------



## Torq

brent75 said:


> What phone/computer/player are you going to be using it with? Based on this thread, that will have a big influence on your reactions.
> 
> You were the one comparing to HA-2, right? I came from HA-2 and actually prefer sound of Red to it. Plus it's less money, more portable, doesn't require a charge to work and is firmware upgradeable. Killer combo (if it checks the other boxes for you).




Presumably an iPhone 5 or newer if they've ordered a lightning camera adapter (aka CCK).

I think the experience there will be wonderful ... it just works.

Can't say I'm surprised about the degree of variation in compatibility with Android devices ... the "flexibility" that comes with that platform seems to be more of a curse than a benefit (I say that as someone that, until recently, owned a mobile development studio and subsequently sold it).


----------



## dacari

Unless Audioquest manage to get access to the internal volume of Black/Red from Android main/master volume, I'm affraid we won't be full compatibility. Not really a bug because it seems it has been designed this way.
  
 Rather difficult due android versions, brands and above all the poor Android volume control with only 15 steps but there is hope with MM with the volume slider that you can make fine adjustements.
  
 Waiting for Audioquest answer after his return from Munich


----------



## morgul

brent75 said:


> What phone/computer/player are you going to be using it with? Based on this thread, that will have a big influence on your reactions.
> 
> You were the one comparing to HA-2, right? I came from HA-2 and actually prefer sound of Red to it. Plus it's less money, more portable, doesn't require a charge to work and is firmware upgradeable. Killer combo (if it checks the other boxes for you).


 
 I'm planning to use it with my iPhone 6s plus, windows 10 and windows 7 pc, and a macbook air. At first I was really thinking to get the HA-2, but Dragonfly Red is almost half the price, (but doesn't include cables). Only bad point is it uses the phone battery. It will be my first usb dac, only bought internal sound cards previously (been a while ...)


----------



## brent75

morgul said:


> I'm planning to use it with my iPhone 6s plus, windows 10 and windows 7 pc, and a macbook air. At first I was really thinking to get the HA-2, but Dragonfly Red is almost half the price, (but doesn't include cables). Only bad point is it uses the phone battery. It will be my first usb dac, only bought internal sound cards previously (been a while ...)


 
 I think you'll be pleased. I had the HA-2 for a good stretch, and I only liked it on high-gain --- that sucked the phone battery aplenty.


----------



## morgul

brent75 said:


> I think you'll be pleased. I had the HA-2 for a good stretch, and I only liked it on high-gain --- that sucked the phone battery aplenty.


 
 I hope it will suit my sony mdr-1abt and my sennheiser momentum in ear.


----------



## SpiderNhan

From my experience with the Red the battery drain is around 4%-6% more per hour than usual. This is with Samsung devices, so YMMV.
  
 Now onto volume and app issues!
  
_TL;DR_
_-Android USB audio is flawed and varies from device to device_
_-Even when USB audio works, it might not be working right_
_-USB Audio Player Pro is the only app that peers into the soul of your DAC_
_-There may be hope in the near future_
  
 My experiences with USB DACs have strictly been with Samsung phones which began natively supporting USB audio routing with the Galaxy S3. Upon acquiring an S3 I gleefully purchased a V-MODA Vamp Verza and a Metallo case to experience the pleasures of external DAC/amp processing. While the Verza sounded amazing when connected to my PC and laptop, on my phone it was obvious that the sound quality didn't have much improvement. The Verza's amp was clearly superior to the phone's headphone out, but compared to my old cMoy, double-amped as we do, it was marginal and disappointing considering the 10x price difference.
  
 Fast forward a year. Android 5.0 Lollipop launches and Samsung has no plans to bring it to the S3. Well we'll see about that! A few hours on XDA and rooting and custom recoveries and ROM flashing and I have the Lollipop-based CyanogenMod 12 up and running. It's faster, smoother, and more responsive than before. Problem is USB audio routing is gone. Poweramp, YouTube, Google Play. Nothing. Disappointed I scoured XDA and Head-Fi looking for a solution and stumbled upon USB Audio Player Pro. For $9 you got a clunky interface, no lockscreen widget, and an ugly homescreen widget. It didn't read tags, was hit or miss with album art, and was unintuitive as heck to navigate. I bought the app within 5 minutes of using it.
  
 It wasn't until I heard the Vamp Verza through UAPP, that I heard the Vamp Verza. The difference was so dramatic that I emailed Extreamsd immediately and thanked them for helping to unleash the full potential of my DAC. They answered saying that even though Android is capable of rerouting USB audio, it will still process it first before sending out the signal. So instead of a pure digital transfer like this:
  
 Audio file>DAC>Amp>Headphones
  
 You get this:
  
 Audio file>Android decoding>DAC>Amp>Headphones
  
 So, even if the volume controls on the Dragonfly work perfectly with your phone via Spotify, Play Music, Rhapsody, etc. you still might be missing the true capabilities of your DAC. It's not an Audioquest thing. It's an Android thing. Things are looking up though. The new Poweramp Alpha build 703 has a USB audio implementation that doesn't sound bad, and Tidal already interfaces with UAPP. Hopefully others will follow suit. Let's not forget that the Dragonfly firmware is upgradable. It's only been out for a couple weeks and now the real-world tests are starting to roll in. Think about the updates and patches that Windows, Android, OSX and iOS devices need when new exploits and bugs aren't discovered until a massive launch. The Dragonfly is a small bug and the volume thing is a small bug. UAPP will make the bug sound its best.


----------



## canali

spidernhan said:


> From my experience with the Red the battery drain is around 4%-6% more per hour than usual. This is with Samsung devices, so YMMV.
> 
> Now onto volume and app issues!
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 drag that UAPP doesn't interface with spotify, which i use.
 this from UAPP:

```
[color=rgb(68, 68, 68)] Thank you for contacting us. UAPP will only work with audio you can  select from within the app since it cannot act as generic driver[b]. We cannot get a license to stream Spotify, [/b]but we do support Tidal. Kind regards, Davy eXtream Software Development [color=rgb(0, 104, 207)][url=http://www.extreamsd.com/]http://www.extreamsd.com[/url][/color][/color]
```


----------



## WhiteNoises

Hello there my fellow enthusiasts, 

I just made this account and this is my first post ever. Hopefully the first of many 

I got the Black a week ago and my Red was delivered yesterday. So I'm comparing. My audio player is an iPad Air, known for its good DAC. My headphones are Sennheiser Momentum 2.0s. Audio source: Tidal HIFI

So far my impressions are: with the Black or Red, I don't hear much more (if any more) detail in the sound than coming from the iPad directly. With the Red there is a slightly wider soundstage compared to the iPad Air. The Black has more bass than the Red. Most bass? iPad, surprisingly. Red has more refined treble, more detailed there than the Black, but it also is quite sharp, so I actually find the Black more pleasant for longer listening.

All of this leaves me a bit disappointed after reading reviews from DAR_KO and artsexcellence.com. To be fair, artsexcellence used the Nighthawks to do the testing. It could be that the Momentum 2.0 simply can't take advantage of all the added sound refinement the Dragonflys have to offer. 

Another thing that I thought about is perhaps the sound will change quite a bit after "burning in" these DACs. My iPad has been heavily used for playing audio since January 2014, whereas my Black has 6 days of use and Red has one (I also left it to play the new Radiohead album on repeat all night).

I've had moments when I thought "this Dragonfly (Red or Black) does sound really good" Then I played the same thing through the iPad's headphone jack, and... it sounded really good too 

What are your thoughts? If these will keep performing they way they do, I will return them both. I have to notify the seller if I want to return the Black within a week now, but the Red I can trial for a full 60 days. 

Especially now that Steve Silberman is here in the thread too, I'd like to know his thoughts on this. 

Regards,
Matej


----------



## west0ne

officerdibble said:


> FWIW - I had a reply back from AQ support relating to the Red only working (100%) with UAPP on the Galaxy S6.
> 
> AQ reply:
> 
> ...


 
  
 Are AQ trying to suggest that only Tidal will output to a USB DAC (highlighted in bold)? I have a Galaxy S7 as my daily phone and use my old Galaxy S5 as a media player both work quite happily with the Asus Xonar U3, Fiio Q1, Topping NX2 (not properly on S5), iBasso D14 and Schiit Modi 2 with Spotify, Google Play Music, local audio using native player, YouTube, basically all Android audio output. The U3 has no external volume controls but works fine with the Android audio controls, the other devices do have external volume controls but the Android internal volume control also affects the volume.
  
 It's fair enough that UAPP offers much more control and refinement but to say that USB audio only works with Tidal Streaming simply isn't the case. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for Samsung to update their devices just to accommodate AQ.


----------



## GerMan

@ WhiteNoises: DAR_KO,  DAR_KO, DAR_KO is all I read. Is he a hifi-good over there? Personally I trust MY OWN ears.
  
 Quite disappointed about the Red.
  
 For years, I heard with Dragonfly 1.2 and Jitterbug. Sound was much more transparent as with the Red which is louder, seems to have more "pressure" as it seems to be optimized for smartphones only. But everything is "too fat" somehow with listening via PC, transparency is away. For using wth PC it was a a step back against the "old" Dragonfly 1.2 for me. 
  
 A good device sounds good from the first moment on and may get better after burning in. But never sounds bad in the first moment and really good later. Imho. So, if it sounds bad in the first moment, return it.   
  
 To me, the forum shows that 90% use new dragonflies with smartphones which seem to be the target group for AQ now. In former times PC users were the target group. Times seem to have changed. So I never read a statement of AQ to people finding that new dragonlies were a step back with PC use.
  
 Please  excuse my bad English, it's not my native language


----------



## brent75

whitenoises said:


> Hello there my fellow enthusiasts,
> 
> I just made this account and this is my first post ever. Hopefully the first of many
> 
> ...


 
  
 Obviously everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but are iPad Airs really known for their good DACs? Not doubting you -- I just had no clue, and had pretty much gathered that people don't think very highly of Apple's other Dacs (e.g. laptops and iPhones)
  
 At any rate, I use my Red predominantly with my laptop -- I've barely even used the iPhone/CCK yet. On my laptop (a Macbook Air), I can notice a huge difference between just using my headphone jack and playing from the native iTunes player vs using my Jitterbug/Red and playing through Roon. It's louder, fuller bass, snappier highs, better mids and more pronounced separation between instruments.
  
 I'd be curious to hear Black in comparison. My headphones are already pretty efficient (Hifiman HE400s) -- but I opted for Red in case I ever wanted a thistier headphone and didn't feel like the price difference was a huge deal. The Momentum 2.0 is pretty efficient too, and I'm admittedly not familiar with Tidal -- I really don't stream that much.
  
 What types/genres of music are you listening to?


----------



## brent75

german said:


> @ WhiteNoises: DAR_KO,  DAR_KO, DAR_KO is all I read. Is he a hifi-good over there? Personally I trust MY OWN ears.
> 
> Quite disappointed about the Red.
> 
> ...


 
 No worries on the language -- you're coming through just fine. I can't speak for everyone else, but I certainly didn't read Darko's review as gospel. I just used it as a basis to try something new! I would have sent my Red back if I didn't notice an improvement.
  
 Also, I'm not sure you can put percentages on how people use it (mobile vs computer) -- that's maybe just the people who ware taking the time to respond. Personally, I use mine almost 90% on my laptop and have hardly used the iPhone/CCK at all. When my Sine + Cipher shows up, I plan on comparing that vs standard cable/Red and seeing what I prefer. I honestly hope the Cipher wins out (or at least ties the Red) so I have one less thing to lug around...although I wouldn't mind the Red as it's much less bulky than the strap-on DAC/AMPs I've tried before.


----------



## WhiteNoises

@GerMan Thanks for your reply man!

To be fair I had no idea who DAR_KO was a week or so ago, I only found his website as it had one of the few reviews of the new Dragonflys. And yes I'm certainly within that group who wanted something portable that sounds good, without having to buy a new player. That doesn't mean I'm willing to be happy with anything, though. I think the plan will be to return the Black and keep testing the Red for a few weeks and if I don't start really liking it I'll return that as well. I am aware of the Chord Mojo, of course, but the price is too much for me right now and having another thing to charge every other day isn't appealing to me either. I'd love to try it out for myself with my headphones though. 

Matej


----------



## WhiteNoises

brent75 said:


> Obviously everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but are iPad Airs really known for their good DACs? Not doubting you -- I just had no clue, and had pretty much gathered that people don't think very highly of Apple's other Dacs (e.g. laptops and iPhones)
> 
> At any rate, I use my Red predominantly with my laptop -- I've barely even used the iPhone/CCK yet. On my laptop (a Macbook Air), I can notice a huge difference between just using my headphone jack and playing from the native iTunes player vs using my Jitterbug/Red and playing through Roon. It's louder, fuller bass, snappier highs, better mids and more pronounced separation between instruments.
> 
> ...




The more recent iPhone and iPad devices in general (iPhone 4 and up) have good DACs considering their size and ubiquity, What Hifi have given several iPhones and iPads five stars and praised their sound even though they do not offer native high resolution output. They said about the iPhone 6S: "When CD-quality tracks sound as good as this, we don’t find ourselves wanting for high-res audio, or feel like we’re missing out."' Now, I'm not saying What Hifi are the authoritative reviewers of audio. But I like to read their thoughts on products.

We also hooked up an older Creative external USB sound card at home, and I found myself (and my dad the audiophile) preferring the sound coming out of my iPad listening to some open backed Sennheisers and Sony's (can't remember the models). I was surprised, to say the least. We were playing some 24 bit recordings and there was more definition in the voice with the iPad.

And as far as my music tastes go, it's varied. Classical (Max Richer, Philip Glass, film soundtracks), rap (Kendrick Lamar), RnB, pop, alternative (Grimes and many others), folk (Feist). I don't listen to much rock or country at the moment, but it's not out of bounds. I simply listen to what impresses me and I do not think about the classification much.


----------



## defbear

As others have said, the Android problems are not unique to Audioquest. Over at the Schiit website they too recommend UAPP. I have two Samsung Android tablets. Big and Little. They were both running the same build. One works natively with all android apps with my Emotiva DAC1 and BiFrost both as Uber and Multibit. The other tablet needs UAPP. UAPP is interesting. Sitting by the BiFrost, when I launch UAPP I hear a click as the UAPP driver is loaded. When I exit UAPP there is another click as they delete the driver. Quite a few times I found UAPP did not successfully delete their driver. Then, the tablet could natively access google music, Amazon music, local files and play them. I could not get UAPP to reliably leave the driver on the USB port. What this does prove is that a driver can be written to route sound through USB. If UAPP can do it so can someone else.


----------



## Mojo777

Just broke open the box on a Red. Very impressive little unit. Drives the X easily. Absolute value buy.


----------



## delfine22

Which is recommended for a bit of bass boost, if any. The black or red one?


----------



## leaky74

I must admit, whilst I like Android as a platform, I gave up trying to use it for decent music on the go a good few years ago. I struggled for volume full stop (not loud enough for commuting), & even more annoying was the lack of granularity and profile of the volume steps themselves. You can up-vote the support ticket raised on the developers website but it's been there for years now with little or no progress from what I've seen.
  
 Anyway, back to the Red - for home use with a Macbook, AQ Nighthawks & a decent but modest amp (Magni 2U), I prefer this set up to using the Mojo alone with the Macbook. The fact that I can bundle the DF Red up & use it in-line with my mobile set up I view as a bonus/secondary function. I wouldn't say it doesn't massively improve the sound of my mobile Momentum 2.0 AE (it does!) but as I say, the biggest value add for me is as part of that home set up.


----------



## Angular Mo

Totally confused right now about which I would prefer.

Red's soundstage seems to be preferred; but it also seems to have a harsher treble, if I read the reviews correctly.

Black seems to be reported as having a slightly warmer sound.


----------



## Devodonaldson

angular mo said:


> Totally confused right now about which I would prefer.
> 
> Red's soundstage seems to be preferred; but it also seems to have a harsher treble, if I read the reviews correctly.
> 
> Black seems to be reported as having a slightly warmer sound.



 Absolutely going to depend on what headphones you plan to use. I have used my red with V-moda m100, V-moda XS, Sennheiser Momentum, and my AKG Q701. Red is awesome with all the above. Treble isn't harsh on any of the above. I prefer to amp the Q701 in conjunction with the red, but sound is wonderful in general. This is all coming from my galaxy s7 edge. The phone itself sounds pretty good, but I definitely notice an increase in overall SQ, and soundstage when using the red as opposed to the phones internal DAC. For those wishing to use dragonfly with typical Android media players, be it audio or video, SQ wise, the dragonfly makes a difference even with it being run through Android processing before it hits the dac. A portable amp is a way to remedy the low volume issue for now til there is some type of fix avail. For typical headphones listening, 32 ohm and under, an amp such as the old fiio e11, new a3, Cayin c5 on low gain, etc., will do


----------



## delfine22

angular mo said:


> Totally confused right now about which I would prefer.
> 
> Red's soundstage seems to be preferred; but it also seems to have a harsher treble, if I read the reviews correctly.
> 
> Black seems to be reported as having a slightly warmer sound.


 
  
 seems like black will compliment my EX1000s perfectly.


----------



## SpiderNhan

I primarily use my Red with the Dunu DN-2000J, an IEM which has a reputation for sharp treble and sibilance. It is my most trebley piece of equipment by far and paired with the Red sibilance and treble spikes are gone.


----------



## Signal2Noise

angular mo said:


> Totally confused right now about which I would prefer.
> 
> Red's soundstage seems to be preferred; but it also seems to have a harsher treble, if I read the reviews correctly.
> 
> Black seems to be reported as having a slightly warmer sound.




I ordered the Red several days ago. I decided to order the Black yesterday. I haven't received either yet. I figured the one I like most with my WP (since I can't use my Mojo) will be "everyday" DAC and the other will be relegated to laptop & backup duty. They are cheap enough to get both, imo. I don't like guessing the "what ifs".


----------



## brent75

signal2noise said:


> I ordered the Red several days ago. I decided to order the Black yesterday. I haven't received either yet. I figured the one I like most with my WP (since I can't use my Mojo) will be "everyday" DAC and the other will be relegated to laptop & backup duty. They are cheap enough to get both, imo. I don't like guessing the "what ifs".


 
 Please report back your impressions! I'm always curious to hear Red vs Black direct comparisons...especially since everyone has seemed to have such a different opinion.


----------



## SpiderNhan

@WhiteNoises
  
 A-B testing isn't the most reliable way to test gear. I suggest that for the rest of the 60-day trial period you listen to the Red exclusively. No switching to iPad. No switching to other sources if you can avoid it. All Red, all the time. Once you've acclimated to the sound, switch back and see if you notice any other differences.


----------



## mofu

@WhiteNoises There may be no night and day differences but often if you hear more details one on piece of equipment you will hear it also on the other. Just because your mind knows it is there.
 Have you tried first listening to the iPad and then the Dragon Fly? Of course this way you will hear the song a second time and it is more probable to find new elements in the music.
 But I never had this when going from the Red to my phone only the other way round.
 Still could be confirmation bias, as my mind wants to justify the purchase. The brain can play many tricks on you.


----------



## 0rangutan

Just picked up a Mojo to compare with my Black.
 On initial listening, there isn't a great deal between them although the Mojo definitely does have the edge.
 I would be happier if it didn't (given the price differential) but I will need to spend longer with them both to decide whether the Mojo is better enough to justify keeping.


----------



## MikeRight

People who choose the red over the black. Do you get the same volume level from both? 

I am a little bit impressed about your comments after my reported a/b test between both. 

On the other hand I have tested Oppo ha2 and I am agree with later comments. It is a great piece of hardware but the sound does not convinced me, specially in low gain. 

Now hard testing of mojo. 
Let's see!


----------



## HerrWallen

Hello, I'm about to pull the trigger on one of these two devices with the primary use being a laptop DAC connected to my Ifi Ican micro se.
Since allot of of you posting in here seems to be using it as much (or more) as an amp does anyone have a solid experience of using either as pure DAC?

I'm leaning towards the red even though I prefer a more warm presentation, the Reds apparent favouring of detail and soundstage being my reasoning here..

Thanks in advance


----------



## leaky74

herrwallen said:


> Hello, I'm about to pull the trigger on one of these two devices with the primary use being a laptop DAC connected to my Ifi Ican micro se.
> Since allot of of you posting in here seems to be using it as much (or more) as an amp does anyone have a solid experience of using either as pure DAC?
> 
> I'm leaning towards the red even though I prefer a more warm presentation, the Reds apparent favouring of detail and soundstage being my reasoning here..
> ...




As per my earlier post I'm using the red primarily as a dac; I prefer it to the mojo for my setup.


----------



## CFGamescape

Just ordered a black. Was very tempted to get the red, but I couldn't justify paying double the price for a specific use (portable). I have adequate setups at my desk (home and office), so this should be a great solution when I'm on the go using IEMs.


----------



## anm

leaky74 said:


> As per my earlier post I'm using the red primarily as a dac; I prefer it to the mojo for my setup.


 

 Interesting that you prefer dragon fly over mojo! A little detailed comparison will help. 
@Torq  - can you please share your experience to compare between the two?


----------



## 0rangutan

herrwallen said:


> Hello, I'm about to pull the trigger on one of these two devices with the primary use being a laptop DAC connected to my Ifi Ican micro se.
> Since allot of of you posting in here seems to be using it as much (or more) as an amp does anyone have a solid experience of using either as pure DAC?
> 
> I'm leaning towards the red even though I prefer a more warm presentation, the Reds apparent favouring of detail and soundstage being my reasoning here..
> ...


 

 I haven't used it as a pure DAC but I will say that the amp is very good, despite its tiny size.  You may well find that it performs equally as well as your iFi iCan and that you no longer need the dedicated amp, simplifying your setup.


----------



## HerrWallen

leaky74 said:


> As per my earlier post I'm using the red primarily as a dac; I prefer it to the mojo for my setup.


 
 Oh, I'm sorry there leaky74, I totally mis-read your post.
  
 The (slight) fatigue (due to brightness) you mention, would you say that comes from the general difference between the to (smooth vs bright) or any specific sonic character of the Red (edgyness/grain/aggresiveness in the treble octaves)?


----------



## Deni5

anm said:


> Interesting that you prefer dragon fly over mojo! A little detailed comparison will help.
> @Torq  - can you please share your experience to compare between the two?


 
  
 There is nothing strange about someone prefering Dragonfly over Mojo. There is no magical device that will make everything sound perfect. Have in mind that there is always Dac/Amp <> Headphone synergy. Some combinations will sound special, some 'meh'. And furthermore everyone has there opinion of what sounds 'right' for them. Some even like a little distortion heh
  
 From a technical standpoint Mojo trumps many DACs below 1000 USD - many have said this - even those making a living on reviewing DACs. Still, personally, I don't use mine that much. Even my old trustworthy ODAC gets a lot more use (but that doesn't make it better).


----------



## HerrWallen

0rangutan said:


> I haven't used it as a pure DAC but I will say that the amp is very good, despite its tiny size.  You may well find that it performs equally as well as your iFi iCan and that you no longer need the dedicated amp, simplifying your setup.


 
 For most parts, yes, that is what I'm hoping as well but then there is my ortho-transplants (Yamaha HP-1) that require a small powerplant to truly sing so I wont be loosing the Ifi any time soon


----------



## Torq

anm said:


> Interesting that you prefer dragon fly over mojo! A little detailed comparison will help.
> @Torq  - can you please share your experience to compare between the two?


 

 From a raw sound quality perspective, and in terms of overall capability/flexibility I prefer the Mojo.  Which means nothing, really, as individual tastes differ significantly.
  
 The Dragonfly Red sounds extremely good - certainly way better than I expected.  I was really caught off guard with the bass present with my SE846 (using the balanced filter), and in general the detail, headstage, dynamics and tone are very good indeed.  It's VERY close to the SE output on the DP-X1 and the DFR beats the AK120 in my opinion as well.
  
 While personally I think the Mojo is significantly better, pretty much all around (I can't think of anything the Dragonfly does better, sonically), the Dragonfly is a lot more convenient, is powerful enough to drive many full-size headphones (faired quite well with my LCD-2.2c and HD800S) and doesn't need charging.  The Mojo seems to have a good bit more power and headroom which is very useful with the more demanding cans.
  
 Which I use depends on what I'm doing.  If I'm traveling alone then I take the AK120, Mojo and SE846 - since I'll have enough "alone time" to do some serious listening.  If I'm traveling with company then it's really nice to be able to ditch the need for a battery pack and multiple cables and just take a tiny USB dongle, and my noise cancelling headphones which, combined, take up less space than the Mojo on it's own.


----------



## Torq

deni5 said:


> There is nothing strange about someone prefering Dragonfly over Mojo. There is no magical device that will make everything sound perfect. Have in mind that there is always Dac/Amp <> Headphone synergy. Some combinations will sound special, some 'meh'. And furthermore everyone has there opinion of what sounds 'right' for them. Some even like a little distortion heh
> 
> From a technical standpoint Mojo trumps many DACs below 1000 USD - many have said this - even those making a living on reviewing DACs. Still, personally, I don't use mine that much. Even my old trustworthy ODAC gets a lot more use (but that doesn't make it better).


 

 Mojo trumps a good few DACs over $1000 as well!  In fact during my current round of DAC auditioning I found it clobbered a fairly well known $4000 DAC/amp.


----------



## anm

deni5 said:


> There is nothing strange about someone prefering Dragonfly over Mojo. There is no magical device that will make everything sound perfect. Have in mind that there is always Dac/Amp <> Headphone synergy. Some combinations will sound special, some 'meh'. And furthermore everyone has there opinion of what sounds 'right' for them. Some even like a little distortion heh
> 
> From a technical standpoint Mojo trumps many DACs below 1000 USD - many have said this - even those making a living on reviewing DACs. Still, personally, I don't use mine that much. Even my old trustworthy ODAC gets a lot more use (but that doesn't make it better).


 

 No, I don't find it strange, but interesting. With all the hype around chord mojo, the dragon fly being compared to it is interesting. More interesting because I am myself making up my mind for Mojo, and here comes a new product which is cheaper, easier to carry around, and possibly better too. That's what is interesting.


----------



## stuck limo

west0ne said:


> I was going to pick up a Red this weekend to pair with my S7 but it looks like my plans have changed for now. One of the selling points of the new Black & Red is that the firmware is upgradeable so hopefully AQ will be able to do something to improve general Android audio compatibility. There are plenty of DACs that do work properly with all audio on Android so we know it's possible; let's just hope it can be done with the hardware in the Black/Red through an update.




Where exactly does one pick up a Red or black over the weekend? Which retail stores have them?


----------



## defbear

I have both Dragonfly Red and Mojo. The Mojo is better, but not 3 times better. I do not think the Mojo is worth all the hype I've read.  I need to live with the Mojo more but I prefer my ifi idsd micro.


----------



## brent75

defbear said:


> I have both Dragonfly Red and Mojo. The Mojo is better, but not 3 times better. I do not think the Mojo is worth all the hype I've read.  I need to live with the Mojo more but I prefer my ifi idsd micro.


 
 I've never heard Mojo, and would love nothing more than the chance to do so. I'm sure it's amazing.
  
 But like you said, I have a hard time believing it sounds 3 times better than Red or 5 times better than Black. And that's before you factor in all the convenience hassles. And now, on top of that, Chord is finally releasing a case for Mojo. But the cost? $99 -- same as a brand new Black.


----------



## defbear

brent75 said:


> I've never heard Mojo, and would love nothing more than the chance to do so. I'm sure it's amazing.
> 
> But like you said, I have a hard time believing it sounds 3 times better than Red or 5 times better than Black. And that's before you factor in all the convenience hassles. And now, on top of that, Chord is finally releasing a case for Mojo. But the cost? $99 -- same as a brand new Black.


I think if you have an Apple product or an Android device and do not mind running UAPP(cause it works) A person should at least have an DF Black in their kit. I think of the Mojo as a practical bit of Luxury Goods. Besides being a splendid piece of working hardware it has been 'Designed' beyond the sound. The three glass ball are amazing. I set the volume to Color! The three color changing balls have.....oops OT. The Mojo sounds smooth. The DFB sounds smooth. Sigh, both Dragonflys sound even better with a Jitterbug.


----------



## west0ne

stuck limo said:


> Where exactly does one pick up a Red or black over the weekend? Which retail stores have them?


 
 Both RicherSounds and Superfi have them listed and they have stores local to me. If they hadn't got them in Amazon were doing next day delivery so it would have been a case of ordering.


----------



## Wilderness

I ordered the Dragonfly Red from Amazon on Friday and it was delivered on Sunday.
  
 I have it as the DAC for my iMac, connected via Audioquest's Big Sur to PSB's PS1 speakers.  I also have the PSB matching sub via Audioquest's Irish Red.  I am using Iso speaker stands (and thick foam mouse pads because the speaker's base is so small).  My music player is Pono Music World's fork of JRiver, which is free and by far the best music player I've heard.
  
 My previous set up was the same but with the Dragonfly 1.2.
  
 My take with this set up:
  
 1) Bass is much better controlled, but just as strong, with the Red.  The result is that for the first time I am hearing musical bass rather than just okay bass.  Bass is now enjoyable rather than just "there."  And bass with the Dragonfly 1.2 was a step up from the first Dragonfly, which sounded boomy.  I played some bass heavy tracks with the Red to find out how it would handle it: The Grateful Dead's "Watkins Glen Soundcheck Jam," from 1:20 to about 1:40, is a torture test that sounded distorted with the 1.2, but the Red handles it well.  The driving bass notes in Portishead's "It Could Be Sweet" now sounds much better.  Pain Killer's "Batrachophrenoboocosmomachia," a very loud track with strong bass and drums, sounds fine now.  At the opposite extreme, Patty Larkin's "Coming Up for Air," the most beautiful song I've ever heard, is even more exquisite and the bass is superb.  I like bass, but not distorted or boomy bass, and for most songs the Red's bass is a major step up from what the 1.2 could produce.
  
 2) Details are coming through better than with the 1.2.  I am hearing more depth, too, as in Larkin's "Coming Up for Air."
  
 3) The 1.2's warmth is still there on my system.  It is glorious, as I noticed with Gillian Welch's "I Made a Lover's Prayer," and her "April the 14th Pt. 1," even in Apple AAC 256.
  
 4) Vocals are clearer now with the Red on my system.  So good they are almost "creamy."  No unpleasant etch or grain at all.  No harshness in the treble.  But the somewhat raspy quality in the vocals of Stephen Still's "So Begins the Task" and in his "Treetop Flyer" from Just Roll tape is still there as intended. 
  
 5) Acoustic guitar notes sound sublime now.  The 1.2 was pretty good, but the Red nails this.  Example: Gillian Welch's "Revelator" and "Everything is Free" from her Time album.  And "King of the Mountain" by David Crosby from his Box album.  And Buddy Guy's "Come Back Muddy" on his Born to Play Guitar album.
  
 6) I forgot to mention Jazz.  I have a lot of older stuff from Billy Bang, Miles Davis, Nucleus with Ian Carr, Jacques Corsil, Ornette Coleman, etc., and it all sounds great with the Red.  As does my new obsession, After In Paris, which is sometimes classified as Jazz.
  
 7) The Red brings out my PSB speakers' potential well enough for me to feel chills, like I've died and gone to audio heaven, with most of my music.  Some rock, however, like Led Zeppelin, sounds very good but isn't quite loud enough, and so I am tempted to step up to Adam Artist 5 speakers with the matching Artist sub this summer.  For the time being, I am happy with my speakers.
  
 As I read elsewhere, there may be no better $200 investment than the Audioquest Red DAC to improve a computer audio system.  Audioquest has nailed it with the Red, at least for my modest audio system.
  
 I have a Sony ZX2 that I use for my car's audio system, and it sounds good with high res and CD quality 1411 files.  I am curious how the Red DAC sounds with Apple AAC 256 songs from an iPad or iPhone.


----------



## delfine22

^ Great review. The black sounds like exactly what Im looking for


----------



## zolom

Is a AudioQuest considering a  software upgrade of either Black or Red to enhance support for android in order to bypass the need for UAPP?
  
 Thanks


----------



## virelai

Apologies - missed off the quoted post - see next post.


----------



## virelai

dudde said:


> I just bought the Dragonfly Red to use with iphone and ipad. The sound is amazing but I am experiencing a crackling, cracked sound on some tunes when I use Spotify. Have discovered that this happens when I use Spotify's equlizer. Usually i use the acoustic or the jazz setting. Should it be so, has anyone else experienced the same thing?


 
  
 Just received my Dragonfly Red and getting the same issue here with iPhone 6S+CCK (using Oppo PM3s). Streaming from Tidal and Qobuz I get a crackling sound like scratched vinyl, random but approximately every couple of seconds, plus every now and then a brief and really nasty sound like fingernails on a blackboard. Switching to iTunes or Onkyo HD Player is better but still get the clicking occasionally. No EQ applied. No issues with headphones connected directly or through Chord Hugo, and has not been apparent yet when the Dragonfly is used with my MacBook using Audirvana+ or Vox. May have to return the Dragonfly and look for another solution. Otherwise it sounds pretty pleasing - wider sound stage and more extension and detail - but not close to the Hugo, which altogether richer and deeper (and nearly 10x more expensive!).


----------



## leaky74

herrwallen said:


> Oh, I'm sorry there leaky74, I totally mis-read your post.
> 
> The (slight) fatigue (due to brightness) you mention, would you say that comes from the general difference between the to (smooth vs bright) or any specific sonic character of the Red (edgyness/grain/aggresiveness in the treble octaves)?


 
 Having owned the red now for a couple of weeks; I'd revise that opinion. Me saying that it might be slightly fatiguing (compared to the Mojo) was based on my initial impressions and some brief A-B comparisons I undertook over the course of about an hour. To be honest, now that either my brain or the DF has burnt in; I don't find it fatiguing at all to be honest. Again, I would qualify this and say that it's perhaps no surprise it partners well with my HPs (Nighthawks), as I assume this would have been a pairing tested thoroughly in house. Partnered with a low output impedance, transparent amp I prefer the red in my setup. Using both as standalone units, I can understand the platitudes the mojo receives but in my opinion, I just didn't think it works as well with the Nighthawks as the Red.


----------



## YtseJamer

I just got the Dragonfly Red and it's working very well with my 'old' iPod Touch 5G and the new apple lightning to usb camera adapter.  (MD821AM/A)


----------



## YtseJamer

tommo21 said:


> I've ordered the new cable, so I'll have a try with that first. Got 30 days to ship it back anyway.
> 
> I saw a thread on apple.com from march 1st this year that this new cable you refer to isn't supported on the Ipods, but theres been firmware upgrades since then on the iOS.


 
  
 The Red is working with my iPod Touch 5G


----------



## Signal2Noise

wilderness said:


> I ordered the Dragonfly *Red* from Amazon on Friday and it was delivered on Sunday.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


 
  
  


delfine22 said:


> ^ Great review. The *black* sounds like exactly what Im looking for


 
  
 Your comment to @Wilderness post confuses me, @delfine22


----------



## HerrWallen

leaky74 said:


> Having owned the red now for a couple of weeks; I'd revise that opinion. Me saying that it might be slightly fatiguing (compared to the Mojo) was based on my initial impressions and some brief A-B comparisons I undertook over the course of about an hour. To be honest, now that either my brain or the DF has burnt in; I don't find it fatiguing at all to be honest. Again, I would qualify this and say that it's perhaps no surprise it partners well with my HPs (Nighthawks), as I assume this would have been a pairing tested thoroughly in house. Partnered with a low output impedance, transparent amp I prefer the red in my setup. Using both as standalone units, I can understand the platitudes the mojo receives but in my opinion, I just didn't think it works as well with the Nighthawks as the Red.


 
 That is very nice to hear and thank you for the thorough feedback.
  
 Both devices wold most likely blow my mind but the red seems to be the best option for my specific needs and gear, you really helped me to decide on this one.


----------



## leaky74

Be interested to hear your thoughts when you get one


----------



## Bianci1969

Hello everyone — 
  
 Thanks for your patience. There are several general questions and an overall concern regarding Android. I’ll address general questions and concerns first and save Android for last. 
  
*How many milliwatts do the DragonFlys output at 600ohm?*
 DragonFly Red is capable of a peak output of 2.1vac. Into 600ohms, that’s only about 7mW. But most 600-ohm headphones are usually less than that and we can drive these just fine, as well as drive any receiver or integrated amplifier.
  
*How much battery power do the DragonFlys drain?*
 They both draw about 4-5ma, plus whatever power the headphone amp is using at that time. This makes them easily capable of working with mobile devices—without placing a heavy burden on battery life.
  
*Are the DragonFlys USB Audio Class 1 or Class 2?*
 The DragonFlys are UAC1 devices.
  
*Are the DragonFlys compatible with iPod Touch 5 and 6?*
 DragonFly Black and Red are compatible with all iOS devices.
  
*DragonFly Black/Red is exhibiting pops, clicks, and intermittent distortion when connected to an iPhone/iOS device.*
 Pops and clicks from iOS devices can be attributed to one or both of the following: 
 •   Defective Camera Connection Kit: We have had experiences with a few defective camera kits. Apple has been proactive in replacing any defective units. You can simply return a defective adaptor to any Apple store for an exchange. Be sure to purchase genuine Apple CCKs. There are a number of counterfeits on the market. 
 •   On a few occasions, while listening to any app, such as iTunes, Tidal, or Netflix, I’ve experienced intermittent clicks. I’ve found that shutting down the iOS device (iPhone or iPad) and rebooting the unit solves the issue. 
  
*Hearing a crackling sound when using Spotify**’**s equalizer settings.*
 We’ve experienced the same thing with Spotify’s EQ, but not from other apps. I’ve sent a service request to Spotify and hopefully they will respond. If they’re willing, I’m certain this is something we can solve together. 
  
  
 What we know about our USB code’s compatibility – It works with the following: 
 •   Apple OS X and iOS
 •   Microsoft XP, 7, 8.1 and 10
 •   Linux Ubuntu (we offer no support for Linux OS’) 
 •   Android 4.1 and newer _*provided that the hardware manufacturer implements hardware, software, and device drivers in accordance with all agreed specifications. _This is where things get sticky … 
  
 When Google releases a new OS, they tend to have everything buttoned up and compliant. That’s their goal. Yes, there will be problems; there always are. But that’s what updates are for. Where things get sticky are in implementation. When a hardware manufacturer gets hold of the OS, they can choose to keep, alter, or omit certain features. This creates fragmentation. I’ll give you an example: I bought a Samsung Galaxy tablet. It was a brand new and current model when I purchased it. As soon as I got it, I made sure it had all of the latest software updates. When I went to connect it to several USB DACs, it would not enumerate with any of them. So, I downloaded the following software to test the tablet’s compliance: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=eu.chainfire.usbhostdiagnostics . 
  
 This app confirmed that my tablet is not compliant with the USB Host specification. From here, I jumped to UAPP, an app that has all of its own appropriate solutions embedded into it, bypassing any limitations built natively into the devices OS. 
  
 With regard to volume control: The USB org defines very clearly how volume control is supposed to work: 
  
*3.5 Audio Function Topology*
*To be able to manipulate the physical properties of an audio function, its functionality must be divided into addressable Entities. Two types of such generic Entities are identified and are called Units and Terminals.*
*Units provide the basic building blocks to fully describe most audio functions. Audio functions are built by connecting together several of these Units. A Unit has one or more Input Pins and a single Output Pin, where each Pin represents a cluster of logical audio channels inside the audio function. Units are wired together by connecting their I/O Pins according to the required topology. … As an example, consider a Volume Control inside a Feature Unit. By issuing the appropriate Get requests, the Host software can obtain values for the Volume Control**’**s attributes and, for instance, use them to correctly display the Control on the screen. Setting the Volume Control**’**s current attribute allows the Host software to change the volume setting of the Volume Control.*
* *
* *
*5.2.2.4.3.2 Volume Control*
 T*he Volume Control is one of the building blocks of a Feature Unit. A Volume Control can support all possible Control attributes (CUR, MIN, MAX, and RES). The settings for the CUR, MIN, and MAX attributes can range from +127.9961 dB (0x7FFF) down to -127.9961 dB (0x8001) in steps of 1/256 dB or 0.00390625 dB (0x0001). The range for the CUR attribute is extended by code 0x8000, representing silence, i.e., -∞ dB. The settings for the RES attribute can only take positive values and range from 1/256 dB (0x0001) to +127.9961 dB (0x7FFF). The Volume Control honors the request to the best of its abilities. It may round the wVolume attribute value to its closest available setting. It will report this rounded setting when queried during a Get Control request.*
*In the first form of the request, a particular Volume Control within a Feature Unit is addressed through the Unit ID and Channel Number fields of the Set/Get Feature Unit Control request. The valid range for the Channel Number field is from zero (the ‘master**’ **channel) up to the number of logical channels in the audio channel cluster.*
  
 The DragonFly Red & Black follow standard USB protocol definitions for volume controls. This is a function of decibels with a unity gain output = 0dB. In the case of the Red the range is from -64dB to 0dB, were 0dB would equal full capable output of 2.1Vac.
  
 Here’s an example of how this works (Apple):
  
 DragonFly set to 0db (unity gain) 
  

  


 DragonFly set to -1db
  

  
  
 DragonFly set to -64db (zero gain)


  
  
  
 And here’s how this works on Windows:
  
 DragonFly set to 0db (unity gain)
  

  


 DragonFly set to -64db (zero gain)
  

  


  
 So, we know for certain the following: Both Apple and Microsoft adhere to the USB Host specifications. We also know that UAPP adheres to this. That’s why DragonFlys work with the volume control on all of these systems. 
 A little bit more on why UAPP works on almost all Android devices: It is a driver in the purest sense, similar to an ASIO driver for windows.  UAPP doesn’t write to Android’s media player, only to its own. 
  
 The issue with compatibility resides with Android and/or its hardware partners. All we can do is create a code that meets USB.org’s specification. From there it is up to parties on the other side to adhere as well.  We’ve seen workarounds such as this … http://www.techulk.com/2015/01/how-to-increase-default-volume-on-any.html . But this seems to be chip specific, so it won’t solve everyone’s problem. This is the challenge with a fragmented market. 
  
 I think in the long term we’ll need to find a developer who wants to create a universal device driver for Android; something akin to the ASIO driver for Windows. Until then the best solution we can recommend is UAPP. Thanks for reading. 
  
 Regards, 
  
 Steve Silberman
 AudioQuest


----------



## MikeRight

bianci1969 said:


> Hello everyone —
> 
> Thanks for your patience. There are several general questions and an overall concern regarding Android. I’ll address general questions and concerns first and save Android for last.
> 
> ...







So... Why do I hear the red less loud than black in OS X and iOS? Sorry, but I do not understand the reason and how to fix it. 

Thanks!


----------



## squish72

About a week ago I bought a Audioquest dragonfly red now this week I was able to get a LG v10 for a decent price. I saw the v10 has the sabre 9018 and the dragonfly has a 9016 did I just make my dac/amp purchase useless? I only use it on mobile since my pc uses my onkyo to decode.


----------



## defbear

I was having volume problems until I went into the DFR properties and turned up the volume as Steve's post above displays. In UAPP I had to tap the three dots and go to 'Hardware Volume' and raise it up. Hope this helps.


----------



## Deni5

squish72 said:


> About a week ago I bought a Audioquest dragonfly red now this week I was able to get a LG v10 for a decent price. I saw the v10 has the sabre 9018 and the dragonfly has a 9016 did I just make my dac/amp purchase useless? I only use it on mobile since my pc uses my onkyo to decode.


 
  
 On paper 9018 should be better, but that doesn't say much. It is all in the implementation, the white papers you see are theoretical values (best possible). Depending on the implementation perhaps you can get pretty close to these values. For a long time I couldn't understand how ODAC with an inferior chip sounded much better to me than many higher priced DACs.
  
 I'm a fan of Sabre based DAC's and have heard many different variants - also many bad implementations. To me Dragonfly Red has an excellent implementation of the Sabre DAC 9016 and sounds better than many 9018k2m implementations I've heard. The use of a digital filter (minimum-phase) also levels up the performance. (many implementations use the already built in slow or fast roll off filters - I tend to like custom filter implementations)


----------



## squish72

That's completely understandable. As with all audio things only the ears of the listener can be the judge. I'll just have to wait and see. Thanks for your reply


----------



## musicisthekey

musicisthekey said:


> It just shows that we all hear differently. I absolutely love the Red. I'm using Pono MusicWorld player with WASAPI, PC running Win 10. I like DF 1 and absolutely dislike DF 1.2 because it suffers from digititis and sounds artificial. Audioquest fixed that problem with the Red. It's smooth sounding and yet has lots of details. It's never fatiguing. The Red has the biggest soundstage of any portable i had a chance to audition. I've owned ZX2, Cowon P1, HM901 and 802, Calyx M and I prefer the sound of the Red by a big margin. I also like it more than GO V1 and 2 and Herus, I'll go as far as saying that I prefer the Red to Concero HP. I also had a chance to audition Mojo and I was very impressed with it. Unfortunately, Mojo sounds closed in to my ears. If it didn't sound closed in, I would pick it over the Red. I don't remember the last time I was so excited to come home from work and listen to my music library with a new toy.
> 
> Again, YMMV.


 
 After spending more time with the Red, I'm afraid that the new toy syndrome has worn off and my opinion has changed. There is something that is bothering me about the way the Red is voiced. Everything sounds smoothed over. It's especially apparent on female vocals. It almost sounds if there is a veil even though it is a bright sounding DAC/Amp. I'm still blown away by the soundstage size though. It's comfortably wide and is not closed in.


----------



## canali

heading to my retailer to try them both shortly...


----------



## jehugo

For the red vs black debate... using black with ie800s. It's a fantastic upgrade to a mobile device. If red has one iota of treble bias over black, I would not choose it over black.

Is this contraption better than dedicated daps? Not to my ears by a long shot. But for the the price It's fantastic for no nonsense on the go great SQ that will leave you consoled if you have to sell the dap for food.


----------



## Bianci1969

Hi Mike - 
  
 The reason the Black sounds louder at a particular volume setting, such as when both DAC's are set to -39db, is because the Black's volume control doesn't track in linear (1db) steps. However, the Red does in fact track in 1db linear steps. As you move closer to unity gain there will be less disparity between the two units. Below is Black's volume control step chart. 
  


         –100 
 0.00001 
  00100000 
 –10.9 
 0.283 
 00000000 
 –59.5 
 0.001 
 00100001 
 –10.3 
 0.305 
 00000001 
 –53.5 
 0.002 
 00100010 
 –9.7 
 0.329 
 00000010 
 –50.0 
 0.003 
 00100011 
 –9.0 
 0.353 
 00000011 
 –47.5 
 0.004 
 00100100 
 –8.5 
 0.379 
 00000100 
 –45.5 
 0.005 
 00100101 
 –7.8 
 0.405 
 00000101 
 –43.9 
 0.007 
 00100110 
 –7.2 
 0.433 
 00000110 
 –41.4 
 0.009 
 00100111 
 –6.7 
 0.462 
 00000111 
 –39.5 
 0.012 
 00101000 
 –6.1 
 0.493 
 00001000 
 –36.5 
 0.015 
 00101001 
 –5.6 
 0.524 
 00001001 
 –35.3 
 0.018 
 00101010 
 –5.1 
 0.557 
 00001010 
 –33.3 
 0.022 
 00101011 
 –4.5 
 0.591 
 00001011 
 –31.7 
 0.026 
 00101100 
 –4.1 
 0.627 
 00001100 
 –30.4 
 0.031 
 00101101 
 –3.5 
 0.664 
 00001101 
 –28.6 
 0.037 
 00101110 
 –3.1 
 0.702 
 00001110 
 –27.1 
 0.043 
 00101111 
 –2.6 
 0.742 
 00001111 
 –26.3 
 0.050 
 00110000 
 –2.1 
 0.783 
 00010000 
 –24.7 
 0.057 
 00110001 
 –1.7 
 0.825 
 00010001 
 –23.7 
 0.065 
 00110010 
 –1.2 
 0.870 
 00010010 
 –22.5 
 0.074 
 00110011 
 –0.8 
 0.915 
 00010011 
 –21.7 
 0.084 
 00110100 
 –0.3 
 0.962 
 00010100 
 –20.5 
 0.093 
 00110101 
 0.1 
 1.010 
 00010101 
 –19.6 
 0.104 
 00110110 
 0.5 
 1.061 
 00010110 
 –18.8 
 0.116 
 00110111 
 0.9 
 1.112 
 00010111 
 –17.8 
 0.129 
 00111000 
 1.4 
 1.165 
 00011000 
 –17.0 
 0.142 
 00111001 
 1.7 
 1.220 
 00011001 
 –16.2 
 0.156 
 00111010 
 2.1 
 1.277 
 00011010 
 –15.2 
 0.172 
 00111011 
 2.5 
 1.335 
 00011011 
 –14.5 
 0.188 
 00111100 
 2.9 
 1.395 
 00011100 
 –13.7 
 0.205 
 00111101 
 3.3 
 1.456 
 00011101 
 –13.0 
 0.223 
 00111110 
 3.6 
 1.520 
 00011110 
 –12.3 
 0.242 
 00111111 
 4.0 
 1.585 
 00011111 
 –11.6 
    
  
 In the end, this has nothing to do with performance. 
  
 Regards, 

 Steve


----------



## Bianci1969

Hi Squish - 
  
 Implementation of the DAC is still a large factor. Things such as the power supplies, ground schemes, clocking, etc ... are also important. In the end, if the Red doesn't sound better than the V10 on its own you should feel entitled to return the Red. Our hope and assumption is the Red will outperform the stock phone. But you be the judge and please let us know. 
  
 Regards, 
  
 Steve Silberman
 AudioQuest


----------



## CactusPete23

Hi Steve, I don't quite follow your Black's volume control chart.   1st column is binary counting to around 63...   2nd column is db?  Unsure why this ever goes positive....  3Rd column is ??? Voltage maybe?   Thought the Black was limited to 1.0 volt maximum output?     Understand steps may not be linear in db terms; but some have reported that MAXIMUM volume for the Black is higher than the Red.  This could be an issue with Android not accessing the full volume/voltage capability of the Red ???  But the black getting that access ???  Why might that happen?


----------



## officerdibble

Hi Steve
  
 Thanks for the detailed and concise information. In my case when I run the USB host diagnostics tool on my Samsung Galaxy S6 (stock Android 6.0.1) it advises me that I am fully supported. However if I use any application other than UAPP the the fly does not change color when different quality material is played, plus the volume is low. This suggests to me that unless I use UAPP the inbuilt USB host driver is a) not sending bit perfect digital output to the DAC and b) it's not accessing the DAC's volume control. I completely appreciate the complexity of these issues and understand that it is difficult to provide fully compatible devices in this day and age. But - I do think perhaps you guys need to make this a bit clearer for potential Android customers. Quotes taken from your website "one that could be reliably used with Apple and Android smartphones and tablets" "Whether you’re listening to Spotify, YouTube, Tidal, ripped CDs, or state-of-the-art high-resolution files, DragonFly will deliver a more emotionally compelling and _enjoyable_ experience" - this has not been my experience... I see that in your FAQ you advise greater detail about the Android compatibility, but I only got as far as running the host check, which turned out to not paint the complete picture for my particular device. As you indicate the only solution to this would be a reliable USB host driver. I hope this is something that you and your team look to work on..... As it's very usual to be supplied with working drivers for a hardware device when one purchases technology these days. 
  
 As a side note... The DF Red sounds fantastic with UAPP and every pair of phones I have paired it with so far! I also really love the portability giving the ability to plug in at work and any Windows or MAC device reliably. Hope the Android issue gets resolved as I for one do feel that being restricted to just one app, is a bit of a shame.


----------



## GerMan

officerdibble said:


> Hi Steve
> 
> As a side note... The DF Red sounds fantastic with UAPP and every pair of phones I have paired it with so far!


 
  
 Well Steve, seems that the new Dragonflies are optimized to Apple products and smartphones in general. Using the Red with my Personal Computer (former target group of AQ) I find it a step back sonically compared to the Dragonfly 1.2. Everything seems to be a bit "too much", too much pressure, sound seems too fat, there no longer exists the transparency and separation of the 1.2. On PC it is too loud (as it is optimised for smartphones). Volume slider of JRiver is 10% as it was 40% with 1.2  
  
 Any comments to this as I read in other forums that pc users made the same experience?
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
  Regards, Reinhard


----------



## jmsaxon69

Why do a lot of you seemed obsessed with volume levels out of these DragonFly? With an average headphone you can't turn it up very loud to begin with, so what's the fascination?  I think my Sennheiser HD650 are the hardest thing I'd realistically want to drive with the DragonFly and it gets plenty loud.


----------



## SpiderNhan

jmsaxon69 said:


> Why do a lot of you seemed obsessed with volume levels out of these DragonFly? With an average headphone you can't turn it up very loud to begin with, so what's the fascination?  I think my Sennheiser HD650 are the hardest thing I'd realistically want to drive with the DragonFly and it gets plenty loud.


 
 The problem is volume levels through Android using apps like Google Play Music, Spotify, YouTube, etc. do not get loud enough, even when set to full. For a lot of people, USB Audio Player Pro is the only app that gives adequate volume levels, which is fine if you have most of your music downloaded to your device, but for people who primarily stream it's an issue. I mostly use UAPP with downloaded music so the DF is fine, but through my Galaxy S6 Active YouTube, Play Music and MX Player require 14/15-15/15 volume to be loud enough with my IEMs. My larger headphones at 15/15 will be driven to "listenable in a quiet environment" loud.
  
 With UAPP I can go deaf before reaching 70% volume.


----------



## Kloss69

Hi Steve,
  
 Do the new Dragonflies and Jitterbug work with Chromebooks?  Thanks


----------



## 0rangutan

One quick observation for users experiencing issues with Android devices:  *Try another OTG cable*.
  
 I was experiencing good Android connectivity on one device but problems on two others, all using a no-brand OTG cable that works fine for transferring content off a USB stick.
 When I swapped this for another OTG cable (a Sony branded one FWIW) I found that all three devices could connect to the Dragonfly without any issues.
  
 Clearly not all OTG cables are created equal and even if they work for file transfer, they may not be up to USB audio.


----------



## defbear

When I bought the DFR I fully expected to have to use UAPP on Android. It is what I have to use with my Master 11, BiFrost, Mojo, HDVD800, Emotiva Stealth DAC 1. This is a Universal Problem with Android. So besides being an Audioquest problem, it is a problem for all the other DAC manufactures who want to play on Android. So if UAPP can figure this out, why has not the entire collective of DAC sellers not gotten on this? Perhaps lease the driver from UAPP and let it load when DFR is plugged in. This is a well known problem that everyone except UAPP has ignored.


----------



## Torq

Having used a number of other DACs with various Android devices (only a little while back, while I was still bothering doing mobile development for Android) the sort of usability issues that are being encountered with the new Dragonfly's is pretty much par for the course.  It's hard to look at it as an AQ/DF specific issue when audio on Android, especially via OTG, is in it's current, inconsistent and highly variable, state.
  
 That said, if people are really having issues with pure, stock, Android on the Nexus devices, that'd be something I'd see as more of an AQ issue.


----------



## MikeRight

german said:


> officerdibble said:
> 
> 
> > Hi Steve
> ...




Not sure if we talk about the iPhone + red + sensitive iems. Volume is too low.


----------



## Hubert481

I compared black and red on ipad pro with spotify/tidal hifi and headphone akg K812
And the winner was jitterbug with red 
For me red+jitterbug is similar to ifi idsd micro - maybe a little bit better
Sold my ifi idsd micro
Returned black
And i am happy to have a good solution with great sound for iphone6s and ipad pro


----------



## Torq

mikeright said:


> Not sure if we talk about the iPhone + red + sensitive iems. Volume is too low.


 
  
 Using the iPhone 6S, DF Red the volume goes way beyond what I can stand with either my SE846 or any of my Etymotics.
  
 It does play quieter from the iPhone than from my various Mac laptops, however.


----------



## squish72

bianci1969 said:


> Hi Squish -
> 
> Implementation of the DAC is still a large factor. Things such as the power supplies, ground schemes, clocking, etc ... are also important. In the end, if the Red doesn't sound better than the V10 on its own you should feel entitled to return the Red. Our hope and assumption is the Red will outperform the stock phone. But you be the judge and please let us know.
> 
> ...



 Hi Steve. I really appreciate you saying that. I don't think I'll be wanting to return the dragonfly as its not the product doing anything wrong. I used it with my g2 phone and it's amazing the difference the dragonfly makes. Just was wondering how it stacked up against the phones built in sabre.


----------



## zolom

Did any s7/s7edge owner here, managed to play spotify via the Black?
  
 Thanks


----------



## Devodonaldson

zolom said:


> Did any s7/s7edge owner here, managed to play spotify via the Black?
> 
> Thanks


I played Spotify and every other Android media amp using the red. I just needed to connect a headphone amp to get adequate volume from my V-moda m100 while doing so


----------



## jmsaxon69

I





spidernhan said:


> The problem is volume levels through Android using apps like Google Play Music, Spotify, YouTube, etc. do not get loud enough, even when set to full. For a lot of people, USB Audio Player Pro is the only app that gives adequate volume levels, which is fine if you have most of your music downloaded to your device, but for people who primarily stream it's an issue. I mostly use UAPP with downloaded music so the DF is fine, but through my Galaxy S6 Active YouTube, Play Music and MX Player require 14/15-15/15 volume to be loud enough with my IEMs. My larger headphones at 15/15 will be driven to "listenable in a quiet environment" loud.
> 
> With UAPP I can go deaf before reaching 70% volume.




Gotcha! Thanks for the clarification, I didn't understand it was a phone specific issue, I thought people were just talking "in general" 

Good to know!


----------



## stuck limo

west0ne said:


> Both RicherSounds and Superfi have them listed and they have stores local to me. If they hadn't got them in Amazon were doing next day delivery so it would have been a case of ordering.


 
  
 My local audio dealer (who are a bunch of a-holes, both times I've dealt with them) told me
  
 a) Audioquest hadn't shipped them to anyone yet
  
 and then when I informed them that wasn't true, that everyone online was receiving them and posting reviews, their story changed to, "Oh, we haven't ordered any yet."


----------



## stuck limo

So I'm confused: I've read both that the Black and/or Red will NOT work with Samsung Galaxy S7, and I've also read they both do work on the device. Are some people running into different technical experiences with the same equipment?


----------



## SpiderNhan

stuck limo said:


> So I'm confused: I've read both that the Black and/or Red will NOT work with Samsung Galaxy S7, and I've also read they both do work on the device. Are some people running into different technical experiences with the same equipment?


 
 They WILL work perfectly using USB Audio Player Pro and a functioning OTG cable. It's the implementation with other apps like Google Play Music, Spotify, Poweramp and YouTube where the volume levels might not be high enough.


----------



## stuck limo

spidernhan said:


> They WILL work perfectly using USB Audio Player Pro and a functioning OTG cable. It's the implementation with other apps like Google Play Music, Spotify, Poweramp and YouTube where the volume levels might not be high enough.


 

 That's what I thought. Since I like Poweramp and Spotify/YouTube, I'll be having to seek other options.


----------



## brent75

The Jitterbug + Red + Roon player + Hifiman HE400S w/ Brainwavz pads is an AMAZING and lethal combo. I can't even believe how smooth and impactful the bass hits...how wide of a soundstage it throws...the clarity and separation of the mids...and the "just the right touch" highs. Seriously can't stop smiling.
  
  
 .


----------



## defbear

stuck limo said:


> So I'm confused: I've read both that the Black and/or Red will NOT work with Samsung Galaxy S7, and I've also read they both do work on the device. Are some people running into different technical experiences with the same equipment?


 
 Yes! I have two Samsung Tablets. A 12.2 and the 10 inch with the amoled screen. Can't think of the model. Both run the same cpu and chipset. Both were running the same build of Android. The 12.2 works natively with Emotiva DAC 1 and Bifrost multibit but not the Mojo or Master 11. The smaller one needs UAPP to play anything. I've kept the 12.2 where it is and continually taken the updates on the smaller one to no success. So YES, you could have two of the same thing and have one or neither work. Sorry.


----------



## mattb888

I got a Black just yesterday, it's the first external DAC I've used, and though I wasn't expecting much more than to be able to drive my K7XX's to a more satisfactory volume (MacBook Pro can't get them quite loud enough for my liking) the improvement in sound quality over the built-in MacBook audio port is noticeable. And while that's nice, the thing is it's still not as loud as I'd like. Is anyone else using a Black with K7XX's finding the same thing? I'm planning on getting a Schiit Fulla to try to drive them harder. It'll be fun to try the Black with my phone though.


----------



## Devodonaldson

After a couple weeks of use with UAPP and trying to see what if anything I could do to make using the red acceptable without having access to the UAPP drivers I decided to dust off my fiio e11. My portable amp of choice is my Cayin C5, however it isnt super pocketable and I choose to use it at times when sitting and relaxing. Anyway, combining the red with my e11 has proved to be more than reasonable. More than enough volume from my 32ohm V-moda m100's on Google play music, Spotify, YouTube,Netflix,HBO,Showtime,etc. And the size of e11 makes it easily pocketable for on the go use. Having an amp with the red for all around on the go use isn't IDEAL, however, I do notice the difference in sound out of the dac vs straight from headphone jack. Improved soundstage/separation for music as well as movies, etc. And the lack of extra battery drain is awesome. I own a fiio k1 tat works when connected to a usb hub, but the battery drain is ridiculous. Taking all into consideration, size, sound, battery drain, pocketability, Using red with UAPP for local music as well as streaming Tidal Hi-fi, and adding the small e11 when using other media applications, games, is worth the slightly less convenient feel,etc. Loving my red, still. V-moda m100,AKG Q701, V-MODA XS, Sennheiser Momentum,and continue to use with any other headphones I choose to add to the collection.


----------



## squish72

Okay so I've had the chance to test the v10 with and without the dragonfly red. Tried with both the m50x and a pair of nighthawks. I was only able to get the phone into medium gain and I honestly think that was the biggest difference between the two. The dragonfly seemed a touch more powerful all around and had more thump to the beat. Was very impressed with the sound on the phone. Yes the phone was better with the red, was it $200 more improved its hard to say. I do know that I don't HAVE to pack the red 24/7 to have great sounding music


----------



## Devodonaldson

squish72 said:


> Okay so I've had the chance to test the v10 with and without the dragonfly red. Tried with both the m50x and a pair of nighthawks. I was only able to get the phone into medium gain and I honestly think that was the biggest difference between the two. The dragonfly seemed a touch more powerful all around and had more thump to the beat. Was very impressed with the sound on the phone. Yes the phone was better with the red, was it $200 more improved its hard to say. I do know that I don't HAVE to pack the red 24/7 to have great sounding music



 I definitely understand your point about the quality of the v10. But owning the red, we no longer have to take the audio quality of the internal dac into consideration the same way. I did not want to pick up an LG phone, but audio listening is something very high on my list. I'm happy with all other functions of my galaxy s7 edge, and with owning a red, it is no longer a thing I have to consider with my next phone purchase. Now I can solely focus on all other aspects of the phones hardware/software, knowing that my audio needs are taken care of by the red and a headphone amp when necessary.


----------



## notfitforpublic

Has anyone had the opportunity to pitch the Red Dragonfly sourced by an iPhone against a DAP like the Fiio X3ii?
  
 Current portable is X3ii>e12a>Noble 3U's. Wonder how the dragonfly preforms vs the internal amp/dac of the X3ii. As much as having the extra oomph around to drive my full size cans is handy, it rarely happens. If when sourced by an idevice, the Dragonfly Red can do just as, or even close to as well as the x3ii/e12a combo, it wouldn't  be hard to move to just the Dragonfly.
  
 Anyone have the chance to compare these 2 or have any input?


----------



## defguy

notfitforpublic said:


> Has anyone had the opportunity to pitch the Red Dragonfly sourced by an iPhone against a DAP like the Fiio X3ii?
> 
> Current portable is X3ii>e12a>Noble 3U's. Wonder how the dragonfly preforms vs the internal amp/dac of the X3ii. As much as having the extra oomph around to drive my full size cans is handy, it rarely happens. If when sourced by an idevice, the Dragonfly Red can do just as, or even close to as well as the x3ii/e12a combo, it wouldn't  be hard to move to just the Dragonfly.
> 
> Anyone have the chance to compare these 2 or have any input?


 
   I haven't compared the X3ii but the Red fed from my Note 3 into Noble 3u absolutely slays my original X3/E12 DIY combo.


----------



## samaero

I picked up a DF Red to use with my Macbook Pro, Late 2013 and iPhone 6 paired with DT880 250Ωs.  The cans get plenty loud for me directly from both the MBP and iPhone, but I had read a lot about how these phones need proper amplification to "sing", and felt like they weren't quite performing up to their potential.  It's my first DAC/amp, so maybe I was expecting too much, but so far, I honestly can't tell a big difference between the sources.  My conclusions are either 1) the Apple built-in components are high enough quality that an external DAC/amp is unnecessary, and this is about as good as these phones are going to sound or 2) this amp doesn't cut it for these headphones, and I need to get something with more power.
  
 Will probably end up selling the Red.  It does play quite nicely with both devices, although in a week's worth of use, I've had it drop out a couple of times on the MBP, requiring an unplug-replug.  Bonus points for connecting to the iPhone flawlessly (iOS 8.4, jailbroken) via this $0.99 CCK clone!


----------



## notfitforpublic

defguy said:


> I haven't compared the X3ii but the Red fed from my Note 3 into Noble 3u absolutely slays my original X3/E12 DIY combo.


 

 Thats encouraging, could you be a little more specific in how? Have you tried any harder to drive cans with the DFR? Noble 3's are pretty easy to drive.


----------



## Bianci1969

defbear said:


> When I bought the DFR I fully expected to have to use UAPP on Android. It is what I have to use with my Master 11, BiFrost, Mojo, HDVD800, Emotiva Stealth DAC 1. This is a Universal Problem with Android. So besides being an Audioquest problem, it is a problem for all the other DAC manufactures who want to play on Android. So if UAPP can figure this out, why has not the entire collective of DAC sellers not gotten on this? Perhaps lease the driver from UAPP and let it load when DFR is plugged in. This is a well known problem that everyone except UAPP has ignored.


 

 Hi Defbear -- 
  
 The reason that the "collective DAC sellers" have not gotten on this is that it is not a defect on the part of the DAC manufacturers. There is an inherent issue inside of Android's OS. What UAPP does is circumvent Android's audio system. So, there are two ways that the issue can be resolved (on a global level) - App developers will have to follow the same plan as UAPP. Android needs to update their OS and follow the protocols that every other OS manufacturer follows - I.E. Microsoft and Apple.
  
 That said, this comes across as a cop-out. And this is not AudioQuest's style. Believe me, we're extremely frustrated by this as well. We will continue to talk with Android architects and app developers and see if we can find a solution ourselves. This is why we made the new DragonFly's software upgradable - If and when we have a solution, and if that solution needs to reside in the DAC's, we'll push that out to our customers. 
  
 Onward, 
  
 Steve Silberman
 AudioQuest


----------



## defguy

notfitforpublic said:


> Thats encouraging, could you be a little more specific in how? Have you tried any harder to drive cans with the DFR? Noble 3's are pretty easy to drive.


 
 Sorry about the vague info, was in the middle of something   I've tried the Red with the Audeze Sine briefly in store and it worked fine. At home with my 702's, it sounds good but is probably a little volume limited. With my HD 600's it works pretty well but they could definitely use more power. When used as a DAC in my desktop system feeding a Shiit Magni, it's definitely better than my usual desktop dac, the  original Cambridge DAC Magic although that's been around for quite a few years at this point and technology marches on. I would say the Red works great for IEM's and resonably easy to drive headphones


----------



## defbear

bianci1969 said:


> Hi Defbear --
> 
> The reason that the "collective DAC sellers" have not gotten on this is that it is not a defect on the part of the DAC manufacturers. There is an inherent issue inside of Android's OS. What UAPP does is circumvent Android's audio system. So, there are two ways that the issue can be resolved (on a global level) - App developers will have to follow the same plan as UAPP. Android needs to update their OS and follow the protocols that every other OS manufacturer follows - I.E. Microsoft and Apple.
> 
> ...


Hi Steve, I don't think Audioquest is copping out at all. Not one bit. I used to be Dilbert and have decades of system analyst work experience, programming UNIX MS AIX, blah blah. No I can't solve this either . But the DAC manufactures are on their own with this problem. As long as Google/Android has a Play Store selling low res music they are not going to fix this. It's against their financial interests. Android has zero interest in solving this or it would have been done. Yet If UAPP can circumvent Nature then so can others. If a driver can be written, and it can, it could reside On the Dragonfly and load when plugged in. Or just be an installed driver like on Windows. Seems everyone has their own driver on Windows. Like Windows, Android has to sit on many different hardware platforms. Readers should know it would be very expensive for a single company like Audioquest attempt to support every flavor of Android. Even Android doesn't want to do it. Some Android Hardware Coilition could be formed between the DAC makers to resolve this. I'm sure their are some DAC makers that feel you shouldn't be fooling with Android in the first place. I'll stop, I could write a book.


----------



## uncletim

will Red work well with HD800? I may decide to travel with HD800.


----------



## Devodonaldson

mingus said:


> will Red work well with HD800? I may decide to travel with HD800.


 first question is what device are you looking to use it with? I'll try to be general. As long as your music player has the ability to control the red's hardware volume, as well as the music player's volume, you should be OK. It will play at listenable volume. However, using a 300 ohm headphone, I would assume you would be using an amp, portable or otherwise in conjunction with the dac, to pull the best out of it. I would anyway. Though you say travel, I'm assuming that since you are using open headphones you plan to be isolated st the time of use. An amp won't be necessary, but is recommended. My red can power my AKG Q701 easily, but I still like to run the dac about 70% and use my Cayin C5 on low gain for extra clean power


----------



## uncletim

devodonaldson said:


> first question is what device are you looking to use it with? I'll try to be general. As long as your music player has the ability to control the red's hardware volume, as well as the music player's volume, you should be OK. It will play at listenable volume. However, using a 300 ohm headphone, I would assume you would be using an amp, portable or otherwise in conjunction with the dac, to pull the best out of it. I would anyway. Though you say travel, I'm assuming that since you are using open headphones you plan to be isolated st the time of use. An amp won't be necessary, but is recommended. My red can power my AKG Q701 easily, but I still like to run the dac about 70% and use my Cayin C5 on low gain for extra clean power


 

 I travel with DX90/Cayin C5, sometimes like to use laptop/windows. listening at home in condo alone...usually..  thanks.


----------



## Hubert481

@Bianchi1969
Hello Steve, is there a link for searching updates for the dragonfly-red files.
Any information about how to upgrade and which program to use.
My manual did not show any information therefore


----------



## CFGamescape

hubert481 said:


> @Bianchi1969
> Hello Steve, is there a link for searching updates for the dragonfly-red files.
> Any information about how to upgrade and which program to use.
> My manual did not show any information therefore


 

 I think your DragonFly will automatically update if there is an update available, provided it's plugged into a Mac or PC, and will prompt you if you want to proceed with the update or not.


----------



## Hubert481

I will not connect it to any computer
Only to iphone and ipad
If there is any update, i will connect it to a windows PC


----------



## dacari

For update our Dragonsflys soon there will be a Desktop app.
  
 http://www.audioquest.com/dragonfly-series/#downloads


----------



## mofu

defbear said:


> Hi Steve, I don't think Audioquest is copping out at all. Not one bit. I used to be Dilbert and have decades of system analyst work experience, programming UNIX MS AIX, blah blah. No I can't solve this either
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 AFAIK the required feature(class compliant usb audio) is present in Vanilla Android. The problem are manufacturers who turn it off because they do not want to support it.
 UAPP works because they have their own driver in userland. A global driver could only be installed on rooted phones.
 A different solution would require each app programmer to run their own userland driver.
 A DAC manufacturer coalition could maybe try to persude phone manufacturers to not omit the driver in ther kernel builds.


----------



## jyang

german said:


> Well Steve, seems that the new Dragonflies are optimized to Apple products and smartphones in general. Using the Red with my Personal Computer (former target group of AQ) I find it a step back sonically compared to the Dragonfly 1.2. Everything seems to be a bit "too much", too much pressure, sound seems too fat, there no longer exists the transparency and separation of the 1.2. On PC it is too loud (as it is optimised for smartphones). Volume slider of JRiver is 10% as it was 40% with 1.2
> 
> Any comments to this as I read in other forums that pc users made the same experience?
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi GerMan,
  
 Do you remember off the top of your head which forums had PC users that had the same experience (of the 1.2 being better optimized for PC) -- do you think you could point me in the right direction?
  
 I'm buying 100% for a PC and trying to decide on Dragonfly Black or 1.2 but haven't found much info yet. I know of the forums audiokarma, audiocircle and diyaudio and there isn't much activity there yet on the Red and Black.
  
 Many thanks,
 JYang


----------



## notfitforpublic

defguy said:


> Sorry about the vague info, was in the middle of something   I've tried the Red with the Audeze Sine briefly in store and it worked fine. At home with my 702's, it sounds good but is probably a little volume limited. With my HD 600's it works pretty well but they could definitely use more power. When used as a DAC in my desktop system feeding a Shiit Magni, it's definitely better than my usual desktop dac, the  original Cambridge DAC Magic although that's been around for quite a few years at this point and technology marches on. I would say the Red works great for IEM's and resonably easy to drive headphones




Appreciate the great info!


----------



## CFGamescape

Tried the Black for a few days and am returning it for a Red. The Black was too warm and didn't have enough clarity and instrument separation for my tastes. The bass was quite impactful, but felt a little loose. Mids were fine, but I didn't get that detail retrieval in the highs.
  
 I think I was expecting more, but I don't think that's fair for a $100 device. But, between that and listening straight out of my iPhone, I actually preferred listening straight out of the iPhone.
  
 Listening was done with my Sony MDR-7550 and Elecom HH1000A IEMs, which scale really well with higher output amps, and what I found was that the sound from the Black didn't do them justice. I would have tried it with the Ether C, but I misplaced my 6.3mm to 3.5mm adapter. I'm thinking it would have done alright, actually.
  
 Hope I like the Red despite it costing twice as much. I'd love an on-the-go solution that complements my IEMs' abilities to scale. If it can perform close to 50% of what the iFi micro iDSD can, I'd be pretty satisfied.
  
 A side note: My intention is to exclusively use the DragonFly with my iPhone, but I did try the Black briefly plugged straight into my work laptop streaming Tidal HiFi via Chrome. To my surprise, the sound was noticeably better than plugged into my iPhone. The volume, as I think it's been mentioned quite a bit in this thread, was also a lot more sensitive. In other words, listening was already quite loud at 10% volume whereas similar volume on the iPhone was around the 30% mark. Sound stage seemed wider. Is it just me or is this just the effect of the volume being more sensitive (i.e., music was just playing louder)?


----------



## HerrWallen

Picked up my Red yesterday, put a few hours on it.
  
 First impressions: upfront and energetic, borderline aggressive sound with very good thump that at times comes across a little less dry than I prefer.
 Nevertheless, it has body and “heft” with top-end shimmer that, depending on headphone might become a tad bright. 
 Nighthawk-owners should be very pleased with the signature tough, authoritative low-end with convincing treble that helps balance the dark-ish signature. My Fidelio X2 sounded just excellent and to my surprise the Red didn’t exaggerate the unnatural treble-glare in the X2s.  
 Soundstage, imaging and detail-levels seems quite good but I haven’t really had the time for a proper listen.
  
 As an amp it packs plenty of power, I was happy to hear how well it drove even my harder-than-average AKG K612 PROs, not to the loudest but with good synergy.
 I wouldn’t go so far as to say the signature is warm but the 612s needs proper amping to sound alive and with the Red it had a nice, engaged presentation.
 Listening to Maxwells Embrya was a joy, the low-end was close to visceral up through mid-bass and the upper mid to the treble octaves was not as bright or harsh as I expected (although the K612s aren’t the brightest of the series). 
 The only thing that I have yet to get my head around is the lower mid-range that sounded (ever so) slightly off.
 Switching genres to Connecticut Early Music Festival Ensembles recording of Vivaldi’s Four Season, I couldn’t quite put my finger on it but the something in the string sections kept bugging me. At first I thought it almost sounded shallow/thin with a slight hollow ringing but going back and forth between tracks couldn’t confirm it. 
 I should be clear here, this might very well be “in my head/ears”, given some time (and recommended burn-in) my opinion will hopefully change/adjust.
  
 As a pure DAC connected to the Ifi Audio Micro ICAN SE it delivers pretty much the same general signature. The ICAN is perhaps more transparent overall and adds some air to the presentation, the Dragonfly delivers ample punch and detail that compliments the ICANs slight analytical nature.
 I won’t venture in comparison just yet, last week I spent some time with the HRT Music Streamer II+ and Rega DAC, when the Red have a day or two behind it I’ll do my best to compare them.
  
 I won’t continue to bash the horse regarding android-connectivity, via the S7  Edge and UAPP I got more than satisfactory sound but outside that, well, I didn’t expect much.

 So far I’m pleased with my purchase over-all, I bundled a jitterbug and will be testing them together after more burn-in.


----------



## GoodGucciGoo

I too am really curious about the performance of dragonfly vs. HA2


----------



## defbear

I have found I enjoy my DFR better with a Jitterbug in-line.


----------



## MikeRight

goodguccigoo said:


> I too am really curious about the performance of dragonfly vs. HA2




It depends on what headphones are you going to use and what kind of sound do you like it. 

IMHO Ha2 with Jh Audio Angie does not work well because of hiss. And you have to put in high gain to get some sound value. 

Regarding space, the sound is very narrow in general. 

Dragonfly offer enough power to move Angie and several kind of headphones. The most difficult to move the headphones the most differences you will notice between dragonflies. 

In general I recommend dragonflies over ha2 because of power and portability. But please try them before purchasing if you can. Depending on you headphones they could match or not. 

For example, I prefer the instrumental separation of the red over the black, but with Angies the red backwards middle band and voices. 

That's the reason I finally purchased neither of them. They do not offer the polyvalent solution I need right now. 

Good luck!


----------



## 0rangutan

goodguccigoo said:


> I too am really curious about the performance of dragonfly vs. HA2




See post 12: http://www.head-fi.org/t/805832/new-dragonfly-black-and-red-discussion#post_12533712


----------



## GoodGucciGoo

0rangutan said:


> See post 12: http://www.head-fi.org/t/805832/new-dragonfly-black-and-red-discussion#post_12533712


 
 Thanks for the review!


----------



## GoodGucciGoo

mikeright said:


> It depends on what headphones are you going to use and what kind of sound do you like it.
> 
> IMHO Ha2 with Jh Audio Angie does not work well because of hiss. And you have to put in high gain to get some sound value.
> 
> ...


 
 I'm using HD600 at home and Westone UM30 pro on the go. I'm quite worried about the hiss to be honest because my UM30pro is very sensitive


----------



## Signal2Noise

The DFB arrived today! My DFR arrived a week ago but I haven't tried it yet. This is a long weekend coming up here in the North Country and with any luck it'll rain and I can test these puppies out.


----------



## brent75

goodguccigoo said:


> I'm using HD600 at home and Westone UM30 pro on the go. I'm quite worried about the hiss to be honest because my UM30pro is very sensitive


 
 Don't know how comparable they are other than (1) being Westones, and (2) being the "3 series"...but I just plugged in my W30s to test them with iPhone + Dragonfly Red.
  
 There was zero hiss whatsoever.


----------



## GoodGucciGoo

brent75 said:


> Don't know how comparable they are other than (1) being Westones, and (2) being the "3 series"...but I just plugged in my W30s to test them with iPhone + Dragonfly Red.
> 
> There was zero hiss whatsoever.


 
 Thanks! And for one thing I forgot to mention, I'm planning on getting Red/Black as a DAC for my Schiit Vali 2. Do you think it's worthy as a dac?
 Also I guess kind of a stupid question, since Vali 2 is an amp itself, would it counteract with the amp section in Dragonfly?


----------



## drykoke

I've now owned the Red for 2 weeks, and done a lot more testing of compatibility.
  
 I love the sound quality in almost all instances. There are a couple of headphones in my collection that don't seem to benefit much, but whenever I use the Red with the highly resolving headphones, I am genuinely impressed.
  
 Now the good news, and the bad news.
  
 Good - works with IPad and CCK; also hassle free with Windows 7 and 10.
  
 Bad - Android issues.
 Samsung Galaxy Tab 4 - works only with UAPP. Drop outs and crackles with Onkyo HFP. Spotify - no sound at all.
  
 Doogee X5 Pro Android Chinese phone - very soft with Spotify, lots of crackles. I did not bother testing further.
  
 Xiaomi 4S - acceptable volume and no crackles with Spotify and You Tube if using sensitive earphones, but too soft with Senn HD600. Works perfectly with UAPP and Onkyo HFP because the app takes over the volume control.
  
 Conclusion: If you are an Android owner, you should only buy the Red after testing compatibility with your own device. And it is very likely that you will need to purchase UAPP or Onkyo HFP, and you won't be able to use Spotify.
  
 I've said this before and I will say it again: I think Audioquest should make it much more explicit on their website that there are compatibility problems with Android, and that in some instances, it may only work with UAPP.
 In a perfect world, Audioquest would offer a bundle to Android customers so that they could have UAPP for free or at a discount. Or an even more perfect world where Audioquest write a dedicated app just like Onkyo have done.


----------



## canali

well finally had a quick listen to day at my local retailer.
I have a 3 yr old lg nexus 5 (has latest os upgrades)...just tried them both with Spotify with my Sony xb90ex iems...no problems at all with spotify (no eq settings used)

But yup the perennial volume output issue persists for those of just using streaming primarily.
for the red i had my phone at nearly 90% for decent volume...and the black was at 60-70% for similar decent levels.


----------



## specj

Would either the red or black pair well with the Sony xba-z5 and an iPhone? I had a lg v10 that I used and they sounded good but I have gone back to an iPhone and it is definitely not as good as the lg v10.


----------



## wondroushippo

drykoke said:


> I've now owned the Red for 2 weeks, and done a lot more testing of compatibility.
> 
> I love the sound quality in almost all instances. There are a couple of headphones in my collection that don't seem to benefit much, but whenever I use the Red with the highly resolving headphones, I am genuinely impressed.
> 
> ...


 
 Your thoughts on the volume differences between iOS and Android? I haven't gotten to test out fully, but my hypothesis has something to do with hardware volume level. On iOS, my volume is much lower than on Windows. Like, my ER4S* runs at near-max volume straight out of iOS devices, and the HD650 I tested was the same situation. The ER4S runs well below that on Windows. Now, on Android, it's a similar situation running out of UAPP at default settings where I have to drive volume to high levels to get the same volume I do on Windows. But, because I can configure hardware volume on UAPP, at max hardware volume I get the same ear-splitting levels. So is it an issue where iOS isn't running at max hardware volume for some reason? That's my hypothesis.
  
 *: technically the ER4PT running through the P-to-S converter


----------



## cribeiro

drykoke said:


> I've said this before and I will say it again: I think Audioquest should make it much more explicit on their website that there are compatibility problems with Android, and that in some instances, it may only work with UAPP.
> In a perfect world, Audioquest would offer a bundle to Android customers so that they could have UAPP for free or at a discount. Or an even more perfect world where Audioquest write a dedicated app just like Onkyo have done.


 
 +1
 As soon as a manufacturer states certain features, these must be readily available without extra cost.
 For the asking price, Audioquest could just solve this (major!) issue delivering a coupon code for UAPP (just a partial solution) or better yet, releasing a general audio driver in collaboration with developers and/or other DAC manufacturers. Furthermore, and specially for the asking price, an adequate connection cable should be included with the device, specially considering the cable issues already mentioned here.
  
 I do not buy the argument "we follow the USB specification". The advertised functionality is "android phone compatibility". Despite the "preventive reference" to the explanation/disclaimer in the user manual, this is still false advertising in my eyes (probably also for consumer protection agencies, at least here in Germany).
  
 I was ready to spend 100 EUR for the Black to pair it with my HTC One M8 and Hifiman RE-400 (make it 120 EUR for a truly working solution, e.g., including cable and driver), but I am put off by the issues mentioned here and by the defensive position of Audioquest. I do not want a justification from Audioquest, I want a solution.
  
 Besides this: is it possible to charge the phone while using the Dragonfly? Real-life application: 12 hour flight, watching movies or playing games.


----------



## appabahn

You can charge while using Dragonfly red if you purchase the Apple Lightning to USB3 camera connector. the USB out plug has a Lightning female for charging while in use from lightning charge cord.
Have been using Red with Iphone6+ for a couple days with FLC8S, currently comparing sound quality with and without will update soon.


----------



## obbiie

Picked up the red yesterday for use with an EU iPhone 6, initial impression is that I love it and it sounds great. I have a V10 and a X5ii but wanted to just use iOS and stick with one device rather than the X5 & a phone, so the red seems to be the answer.
  
 One question though, I seem to be having the usual iPhone issue of volume steps being too big of a jump, I have a 'just to quiet step followed by a 'just too loud' step, which is very annoying. I'm guessing I can only get around this by using a 3rd party app rather than stock iOS player? I'd love it if I could stick with stock as I am a little bit of a geek when it comes to play counts . . .


----------



## canali

appabahn said:


> You can charge while using Dragonfly red if you purchase the Apple Lightning to USB3 camera connector. the USB out plug has a Lightning female for charging while in use from lightning charge cord.
> Have been using Red with Iphone6+ for a couple days with FLC8S, currently comparing sound quality with and without will update soon.


 
 now that will be interesting...thanks.
  
 would also love to hear from those who've hooked it up to a 'lowly' ipod touch 6 gen (which i don't have, btw)
  i have an LG nexus 5 16gb (was before i got back into audio hence the low storage)


----------



## brent75

canali said:


> now that will be interesting...thanks.
> 
> would also love to hear from those who've hooked it up to a 'lowly' ipod touch 6 gen (which i don't have, btw)
> i have an LG nexus 5 16gb (was before i got back into audio hence the low storage)
> ...


 
 I have no idea why the iPod Touch 6 Gen would/should get knocked. For just $400 you can get 128GB storage...amazing touch screen...great form factor/UI...etc. And because of the App Store (and things like Onkyo HF Player) -- it's an insane deal. My Mojo shows up Tuesday --- I'm curious to hear how they pair.


----------



## canali

brent75 said:


> I have no idea why the iPod Touch 6 Gen would/should get knocked. For just $400 you can get 128GB storage...amazing touch screen...great form factor/UI...etc. And because of the App Store (and things like Onkyo HF Player) -- it's an insane deal. My Mojo shows up Tuesday --- I'm curious to hear how they pair.


 
  
 thanks...and i agree...to me the ipod touch is still THE ultimate design others (ak jr etc) are trying to emulate.
 what's not to love: it's light, slim, has fab UI, etc....if only apple had stayed in the game and come out with an
_audiophile level ipod touch with similar chord mojo sound_.
 now that i'd spend a grand on in a heartbeat.
 heck even the new AK300 coming out shortly for 1k....still won't have streaming wifi.
  
 i look forward to your impressions...and to be frank: there seems to be a  number of people
 who pair the chord mojo with an ipod.
  
 question however: are there any limitations on the ipod and DF (or other)
 since alot of apple products being moved to lightning port adaptors
 vs the camera cable kit?


----------



## brent75

canali said:


> thanks...and i agree...to me the ipod touch is still THE ultimate design others (ak jr etc) are trying to emulate.
> what's not to love: it's light, slim, has fab UI, etc....if only apple had stayed in the game and come out with an
> _audiophile level ipod touch with similar chord mojo sound_.
> now that i'd spend a grand on in a heartbeat.
> ...


 
  
 I don't think there are any more limitations that route than anything else out there. There's always SOME sort of a trade-off no matter what you choose (be it price, or portability, or necessity of CCK, or what have you).
  
 But also, I may not be ideal to answer that. I use my DF Red (and if it knocks it off, my soon-to-be-received Mojo) strictly with my laptop. I've finally found my perfect portable rig: Sine + Cipher Cable and iPhone or iPod touch. Sounds amazing now, and I am future-proof should Apple drop the headphone jack. So I am happy to hook up Mojo to iPod/CCK and give you impressions (but it still won't become my portable rig, as I'm done w/ the days of strapping devices and carrying a small load around).


----------



## wondroushippo

cribeiro said:


> +1
> As soon as a manufacturer states certain features, these must be readily available without extra cost.
> For the asking price, Audioquest could just solve this (major!) issue delivering a coupon code for UAPP (just a partial solution) or better yet, releasing a general audio driver in collaboration with developers and/or other DAC manufacturers. Furthermore, and specially for the asking price, an adequate connection cable should be included with the device, specially considering the cable issues already mentioned here.
> 
> ...




1. Universal Android compatibility is impossible because Android hardware design and drivers etc. are the Wild West. Little standardization. It's really not AQ's fault. 
2. You can get USB host cables that have female micro-USB ports for charging and accessory power.


----------



## defbear

brent75 said:


> I have no idea why the iPod Touch 6 Gen would/should get knocked. For just $400 you can get 128GB storage...amazing touch screen...great form factor/UI...etc. And because of the App Store (and things like Onkyo HF Player) -- it's an insane deal. My Mojo shows up Tuesday --- I'm curious to hear how they pair.


 
 They pair extremely well.


----------



## bgravato

jyang said:


> Hi GerMan,
> 
> Do you remember off the top of your head which forums had PC users that had the same experience (of the 1.2 being better optimized for PC) -- do you think you could point me in the right direction?
> 
> ...


 
  
 JYang have you come to any conclusion?
  
 I'm looking for a small usb dac to use with a Gigabyte Brix mini-pc (running Linux). I have no real interest in using it with any smartphone or the like.
 I haven't found yet any clear comparison between the DragonFly 1.2 and Black.
  
 I'll probably be using it mostly with low impedance headphones such as Sennheiser PX100 or Radiopaq Jazz. Though I also own a pair of Sennheiser HD595 (older 120 ohm version) and I could be using those sometimes too or with desktop speakers.
 Almost exclusively for listening to music.


----------



## GerMan

On Amazon.de and Amazon.com you will find several guys who found 1.2 better than Red and Black when used with a pc. I made the same experience...


----------



## canali

canali said:


> well finally had a quick listen to day at my local retailer.
> I have a 3 yr old lg nexus 5 (has latest os upgrades)...just tried them both with Spotify with my Sony xb90ex iems...no problems at all with spotify (no eq settings used)
> 
> But yup the perennial volume output issue persists for those of just using streaming primarily.
> for the red i had my phone at nearly 90% for decent volume...and the black was at 60-70% for similar decent levels.


 
  
 update... emailed steve on this (streaming issue on my android phone) and he kindly replied.
 thought i'd share to help others....so that i don't come across as a total noob.
 i'm learning this stuff, too....
 and i've got to remember: it's silBerman, not silVerman.
  
red is me...black is steve's reply.
 emboldened is by me to clarify.
 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  
_Hello...  — _
  
_This is Steve Sil*b*erman. Thanks for the email. _
  
_guys.*.new dragonflys...still not great with streaming.*..*any suggestions*?_
  
_When you say streaming, can you clarify what you mean here. Streaming services, such as Tidal and Spotify et al? *With apps such as these, on every OS* *other than Android we are not having issues*, nor are we receiving complaints from consumers. *Right now, its an Android specific issue. *_
  
 _i admit i was about to plop down my $200 for a red yesterday at my local vendor, til i hooked it up to my LG G5 smartphone and started streaming...*.for the red i had to (like the 1.2v) crank it up to 90% for decent sound...and for the less demanding (new) black at least 60-70%.*_
_..came away disappointed as I so wanted to buy one of them._
  
_any resolution coming?_

  
_*You don’t actually crank a device up. Its quite the opposite, you crank them down*. All of these devices start out at unity gain. Unity Gain on the Red is 2.1v out and on Black its 1.2v out. Each of these devices has an attenuator, to attenuate the signal down, not up. The amount of attenuation required is going to be dependent on the source material, the heaphones (or speakers), and how loud someone likes to listen. “Cranking” a device up doesn’t require “driving it harder”. They're designed to run at unity gain. _
  
_As for the Android issue we (and anyone else that adheres to the rules set forth by the USB organization) are not to blame here (sorry to cop-out). When a USB device enumerates the host asks a number of questions, such as …        _

_Maximum Vol, _
_Minimum Vol, _
_Current Vol, _
_Volume steps_
 _For some reason the Android OS gets confused in this process and assumes an incorrect maximum volume capability. We believe this is an Android defect because all DragonFly’s work with:_

_Windows — XP, 7, 8.1, and 10_
_Apple OS X and iOS_
_Linux ( I have two computers at home on Linux — one on Mint and one on Ubuntu — no issues with either’s ALSA_
  _what still sucks is for those who primarily stream for our audio: these devices still require alot of juice._
_Both Red and Black draw an average of around 24mA — Apple (and many Android manufacturers) set a device limit of 100mA. This is about as low as we can get._
_if you’re using a UAPP or similar app for downloaded files, fine…and esp for apple…but for those of us mostly streaming…still things need to be worked out…or tweaked/created by vendors._
_We are working directly with Tidal towards this exact type of a resolution — Tidal is just as frustrated as you and us over this — our devices aren’t the only ones in this predicament. As they are in the discovery phase they don’t have a solution or timetable yet. But, the key here (and you hit the nail on the head) is the app vendors can embed a workaround in their apps, just as UAPP has done. But keep in mind, UAPP is doing a host of other things that make their app sound spectacular. Its not just a solution appliance, its a performance appliance as well. _
_Because both Red and Black are software updatable we will continue to look for a solution; once we better understand whether or not there is a way to manipulate Android into behaving properly (or not) _
_We’re not taking this lightly. We understand that the Android community is huge and we want to provide a solution. Ideally, we would like to get Android to repair the issue in their stack, but we have to assume that they won’t and keep working towards a solution. _
_Have a great weekend, _
_Steve Silberman – VP Development _


----------



## romainsecco

What are the "other devices"?
 I was considering buying a black Dragonfly but since I'm mostly using Tidal I think I'll reconsider it... Hope the DacMagic XS is working fine with streaming...


----------



## Devodonaldson

romainsecco said:


> What are the "other devices"?
> I was considering buying a black Dragonfly but since I'm mostly using Tidal I think I'll reconsider it... Hope the DacMagic XS is working fine with streaming...



Actually Tidal is the one service perfectly suited for dragonfly on Android,because UAPP has it's own drivers and through the app support streaming from Tidal. For this reason I purchased the app and switched from Google play music to Tidal. Dragonfly + Tidal through UAPP = AUDIO BLISS


----------



## canali

devodonaldson said:


> Actually Tidal is the one service perfectly suited for dragonfly on Android,because UAPP has it's own drivers and through the app support streaming from Tidal. For this reason I purchased the app and switched from Google play music to Tidal. Dragonfly + Tidal through UAPP = AUDIO BLISS


 
  
 so Tidal_ does_ support UAPP, but spotify doesn't?
 if so i might switch things around....


----------



## Devodonaldson

canali said:


> so Tidal _does_ support UAPP, but spotify doesn't?
> if so i might switch things around....



I think the more correct phrase is UAPP supports Tidal. As of right now, streaming from Tidal has same issues as every other app through Android drivers, however, sign in to Tidal THROUGH UAPP and now you have access to your albums,playlists, search function, with UAPP drivers and full dac compatibility


----------



## romainsecco

devodonaldson said:


> I think the more correct phrase is UAPP supports Tidal. As of right now, streaming from Tidal has same issues as every other app through Android drivers, however, sign in to Tidal THEOUGH UAPP and now you have access to your albums,playlists, search function, with UAPP drivers and full dac compatibility


 
 What's UAPP? I tried on Google but nothing related to audio...
 That's a good news though, thanks for the info!


----------



## canali

romainsecco said:


> What's UAPP? I tried on Google but nothing related to audio...
> That's a good news though, thanks for the info!


 
 https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.extreamsd.usbaudioplayerpro&hl=en


----------



## DucatiFever

I did a double blind test at the weekend comparing the very first Dragonfly (V1.0) to the Dragonfly Red with the OPPO PM-3 and 320 kbps source. Couldn't tell a difference


----------



## SpiderNhan

ducatifever said:


> I did a double blind test at the weekend comparing the very first Dragonfly (V1.0) to the Dragonfly Red with the OPPO PM-3 and 320 kbps source. Couldn't tell a difference


----------



## rolli1949

According to Drako it can handle any Can !


----------



## rolli1949

The Black 1,2 volt t
the red 2.1 volt should be enough !


----------



## canali

ducatifever said:


> I did a double blind test at the weekend comparing the very first Dragonfly (V1.0) to the Dragonfly Red with the OPPO PM-3 and 320 kbps source. Couldn't tell a difference :tongue_smile:




And that's fine... everyone's different.your you get to save $$$.
That said, however, issue could be your source too.


----------



## rolli1949

According to DARKO the Red uses 70 to 77% less power (RED) good news particular if you use it on your HP the Red sounds better (it costs double then the Black )and in this price class they a ahead of the competition at least for the moment.
 Mojo is in another league which should be obvious when you consider the price ! However the Mojo is a brick and not everyone likes to carry two bricks ! Therefore the two Dragonfly are a very good compromise and in fact as Drako mention in hes review you don't need a DAP as the right phone and music files the sound is as good if not better ! Saves quiet a bit of money and the "BRICK" is much smaller.


----------



## Devodonaldson

ducatifever said:


> I did a double blind test at the weekend comparing the very first Dragonfly (V1.0) to the Dragonfly Red with the OPPO PM-3 and 320 kbps source. Couldn't tell a difference :tongue_smile:



Based on your emoji, I can't tell if this is a serious post. If you are in fact saying that you don't think there is much of a difference, perhaps it is due to the quality of music files you are playing. 320mbps mp3 are good for mp3 but when using high quality instruments, dac,headphones higher quality files are needed to hear finer details that are loss in the mp3 compression. If your emoji was your way of making the point that I just detailed.....well played


----------



## joeexp

german said:


> On Amazon.de and Amazon.com you will find several guys who found 1.2 better than Red and Black when used with a pc. I made the same experience...


 

 Yeah  - and those reviews on amazon are always so reliable.  — ROFL


----------



## bgravato

I lot can be said about reviews reliability...
  
 Anyway, I browsed amazon.com comments and I actually found only one comment explicitly saying the DF 1.2 was better than the DF Black.
 On the opposite spectrum there's this review (which is featured on AQ website) saying the Black is better than 1.2 in every aspect:
http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2016/04/go-anywhere-with-audioquests-dragonfly-black/
   
 From that article:


> Talking of which: the Black sounds noticeably better than the v1.2. When AudioQuest claim Black delivers “more music texture and detail” they are aren’t lying. The new model is more tonally satisfying too.


 
  
 I think I've seen a comment on another thread saying the opposite...
  
 Are this "experts" reviews more reliable? Some will say yes, while others might say they are ruled by economic interests.
 I rather not start a never ending discussion about that... Every opinion is worth what it is... But the more we have the better ground we have to take out some conclusions...


----------



## wondroushippo

bgravato said:


> I lot can be said about reviews reliability...
> 
> Anyway, I browsed amazon.com comments and I actually found only one comment explicitly saying the DF 1.2 was better than the DF Black.
> On the opposite spectrum there's this review (which is featured on AQ website) saying the Black is better than 1.2 in every aspect:
> ...


 
 I take Darko's reviews with a heaping bowl of salt after seeing a review of a $380 USB cable that also is a site advertiser. Look, I'm a video game journalist, I know all about people being unnecessarily skeptical about reviewers. But certainly, heaping praise on a $380 USB cable when they're paying your site money – and you're the literal face of the site, so I doubt there's a huge firewall between you and advertising even if there is one  – people should be skeptical of what you write. Not to mention that impressions on audio are wildly subjective to boot, so...I dunno. Point is, I like the DAC on the DF Red, I just have qualms with the amp section and how volume works on mobile (too low, volume levels similar between built-in headphone output and DF Red. Makes using headphones that need the extra voltage tougher to do on mobile) and on PC (volume seems way too hot, IEMs and the Nighthawk are running at very low volume levels).


----------



## GerMan

joeexp said:


> Yeah  - and those reviews on amazon are always so reliable.  — ROFL


 
  
 Not less reliable than the kiddies here playing with iPhones and trying to hear diferences with their compressed music files  ROFL


----------



## GerMan

When reading all the postings here it seems that more than 95% of Dragondly Red or Black owners bought the device in order to use it with their smartphones. So they mostly don't own the 1.2 and therefore can't compare to the sound of the 1.2. 
  
 I did make a direct comparison over several days intensive hearing and I can. Of course it only is my personal opinion. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Don't want to convince anyone.
  
 So don't read that much or assume but  c o m p a r e.  Trust your ears, not the written word.


----------



## bgravato

wondroushippo said:


> I take Darko's reviews with a heaping bowl of salt after seeing a review of a $380 USB cable that also is a site advertiser. Look, I'm a video game journalist, I know all about people being unnecessarily skeptical about reviewers. But certainly, heaping praise on a $380 USB cable when they're paying your site money – and you're the literal face of the site, so I doubt there's a huge firewall between you and advertising even if there is one  – people should be skeptical of what you write. Not to mention that impressions on audio are wildly subjective to boot, so...I dunno. Point is, I like the DAC on the DF Red, I just have qualms with the amp section and how volume works on mobile (too low, volume levels similar between built-in headphone output and DF Red. Makes using headphones that need the extra voltage tougher to do on mobile) and on PC (volume seems way too hot, IEMs and the Nighthawk are running at very low volume levels).


 
  
 Thanks for the reply.
  
 I have no intentions of using it with a mobile.
 Do you have any idea how "hot" the Black is on a PC? It's running on lower voltage than the older DF - 1.2V vs 1.8V (and a lot less than the Red at 2.1V) - so one could expect the Black would be "less hot" than the older DF, but the voltage per se is far from being the only relevant fact here...
  
 Anyway the DF 1.2 seems to be getting harder to find on online shops (well excluding ebay's and the likes) and usually more expensive than the Black, so soon the Black might be my only viable option... So I'm starting to think that's probably better to just go with that and stop over thinking it


----------



## bgravato

german said:


> When reading all the postings here it seems that more than 95% of Dragondly Red or Black owners bought the device in order to use it with their smartphones. So they mostly don't own the 1.2 and therefore can't compare to the sound of the 1.2.
> 
> I did make a direct comparison over several days intensive hearing and I can. Of course it only is my personal opinion.
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks GerMan, that's what I was looking for... someone who had tried both 1.2 and Black on PC/laptop. Why didn't you say so in the first place?
 I posted my previous comment before reading yours... Regarding the output volume, is the Black "louder" than the 1.2?
 What noticeable differences did you find?
  
 Unfortunately I won't find it anywhere locally to try both so I'll just have to jump on a leap of faith based on others opinions


----------



## GerMan

Well, read posting 138, there you'll find my statement and that of another user to 1.2 vs. Red.
  
 Concerning Amazon (there you may occasionally find serious opinions 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 From amazon.de
  
 Topic “Vergleich mit 1.2”
http://www.amazon.de/Audioquest-Dragonfly-RED-USB-Digital-Audio-Konverter-Wandler/dp/B01DFMV4NQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1463561073&sr=8-1&keywords=dragonfly+red
  
 On Amazon.com you find to Dragonfly Red
  
 “What to say: I was astonished by the reviews and was awaiting a superb dac. Don't get me wrong, its a good dac, especially if you want to use it with your mobile phone. But on your pc, my main source of music, this dac is not as good at all. I am using now the old 1.2 version for over a year, and the red is not as good in any way. Its less loud, not as clear and warm as the 1.2. So why only 2 Stars. This DAC costs nearly as double as much as the old one, and for smartphone only i would give it maybe 4 stars. But on pc this dac is simply not as good as the old one.
 Maybe someone can give me a small dac that really is superior to the old 1.2, this is definitively not! As sad as it is!“


----------



## bgravato

german said:


> Well, read posting 138, there you'll find my statement and that of another user to 1.2 vs. Red.
> 
> Concerning Amazon (there you may occasionally find serious opinions
> 
> ...


 
  
 I tried to browse through all the thread but with so many posts is not easy...
 I was searching mostly for comparisons between the DF Black and 1.2, so I probably overlooked/skipped the Red vs 1.2 comments.
  
 Theoretically the Red should be better than the Black, so if 1.2 is better than Red then it should be better than the Black too, though theory (and logic) not always works as expected


----------



## cribeiro

wondroushippo said:


> 1. Universal Android compatibility is impossible because Android hardware design and drivers etc. are the Wild West. Little standardization. It's really not AQ's fault.


 
 My post was actually an argumentation against this point, but fine. You say "is impossible", but UAPP can do it. Welcome to the Wild West. I repeat: I do not buy it.


----------



## simonecosta75

hello mate ..
 i have a simple quest
 red dragonfly work good whit samsung s7 edge and Tidal ?


----------



## 0rangutan

simonecosta75 said:


> hello mate ..
> i have a simple quest
> red dragonfly work good whit samsung s7 edge and Tidal ?


 

 ​See post 353


----------



## Deni5

wondroushippo said:


> I take Darko's reviews with a heaping bowl of salt after seeing a review of a $380 USB cable that also is a site advertiser. Look, I'm a video game journalist, I know all about people being unnecessarily skeptical about reviewers. But certainly, heaping praise on a $380 USB cable when they're paying your site money – and you're the literal face of the site, so I doubt there's a huge firewall between you and advertising even if there is one  – people should be skeptical of what you write. Not to mention that impressions on audio are wildly subjective to boot, so...I dunno. Point is, I like the DAC on the DF Red, I just have qualms with the amp section and how volume works on mobile (too low, volume levels similar between built-in headphone output and DF Red. Makes using headphones that need the extra voltage tougher to do on mobile) and on PC (volume seems way too hot, IEMs and the Nighthawk are running at very low volume levels).


 
  
 Cables are always a delicate subject. But why would you take his reviews with a heaping bowl of salt because of that single review. He doesn't gain anything in promoting that and why would he put his reputation at stake promoting something that is not good at all. As far as I know he hasn't been sugarcoating anything. Of those dacs (that I own) that he describes in reviews I would say he is point on. I'd rather trust one that has tried hundreds of dacs to one that has tried three when wanting an opinion. And on a final note - yes that cable is really good, but then it's also mighty expensive (it would be good even if it was cheap).


----------



## Deni5

german said:


> Well, read posting 138, there you'll find my statement and that of another user to 1.2 vs. Red.
> 
> Concerning Amazon (there you may occasionally find serious opinions
> 
> ...


 
  
 Post 138
_"I'm quite disappointed. Lots of hype over months, the sound was promised to improve enormously over 1.2. I used to hear with dragonfly 1.2 and AQ jitter bug on PC and could not wait for the new Red to appear. Well the difference is, the Red has more power, is louder, at he same time a bit darker, more veiled. Everything seems to be out of balance, no details, no separation of instruments. The new dragonflies were invented to work with mobile phones imho, that's the hole thing. Users with pc were promised a sound improvement over 1.2 at the same time which I cannot confirm at all and is only a marketing statement. I'm using AKG K-702 headphones, quite a precise and resolving machine. Hearing flac files with JRiver on PC with WASAPI, all settings optimized. Music is no longer flowing somehow. Heard the ifi micro idsd which is a LARGE step forward. The red is a step back to me."_
  
 ---
 One reviewer on Amazon states that the Red is not as warm as 1.2. And you describe the Red as veiled, dark, no details, no separation. Both of you have totally different views on it but you agree upon that the Red is bad.
  
 And what's up with all the reviewers stating that something has louder volume - that's not how you compare dac's/amps to one another. It's crucial to match levels!
  
 Also the AKG K-702 are far from what I would call neutral, they are very bright and to shine they have to use a very powerful amp (1W+) - usb-powered not the best solution. And this is what you have based your opionion on - doesn't make that much sense.


----------



## wondroushippo

bgravato said:


> Thanks for the reply.
> 
> I have no intentions of using it with a mobile.
> Do you have any idea how "hot" the Black is on a PC? It's running on lower voltage than the older DF - 1.2V vs 1.8V (and a lot less than the Red at 2.1V) - so one could expect the Black would be "less hot" than the older DF, but the voltage per se is far from being the only relevant fact here...
> ...


 
  
 Yeah, my guess is that the Black isn't a problem on the PC so much because of the lower 1.2V output, and maybe even the analog volume control. If you don't need the extra voltage, go Black! And honestly, the Red is only really problematic with IEMs on PC, and hard-to-drive headphones on mobile.
  


cribeiro said:


> My post was actually an argumentation against this point, but fine. You say "is impossible", but UAPP can do it. Welcome to the Wild West. I repeat: I do not buy it.


 
 Right, UAPP can do it because it's a self-contained app where the developer wrote their own driver for it. But, and I speak from experience talking to developers who make stuff for Android all the time – the platform is a nightmare to develop for because there's so many hardware variations out there. And manufacturers are often deeply customizing Android and the way it works to their own ends. Like, WIndows in comparison is easier to develop for because there's more standardization across the board, even with wildly differing hardware setups. When even Nexus devices behave weirdly with USB DACs, you know things are weird on Android. Should AudioQuest have perhaps promoted UAPP as an option for folks? Yes. Is it their fault that Android is software and hardware compatibility disaster? No.
  


deni5 said:


> Cables are always a delicate subject. But why would you take his reviews with a heaping bowl of salt because of that single review. He doesn't gain anything in promoting that and why would he put his reputation at stake promoting something that is not good at all. As far as I know he hasn't been sugarcoating anything. Of those dacs (that I own) that he describes in reviews I would say he is point on. I'd rather trust one that has tried hundreds of dacs to one that has tried three when wanting an opinion. And on a final note - yes that cable is really good, but then it's also mighty expensive (it would be good even if it was cheap).


 
 I keep trying to find a good way to put this. 
 - Curious is a site advertiser, Darko is the face of the site. Literally. Even if a firewall exists (and the about page of DAR gives no real indication beyond 'trust me'), you know who's advertising on your site because they're there. And these aren't random Google ads on the site.
 - The very idea of a $340 USB cable being worth the money is a claim that should be regarded with high skepticism to begin with.
 - To throw out measurements and blind testing in favor of "Trust me" is a cause for concern, but sure, cable testing and measurement is a dark art to begin with. It's just a concern when this statement is not far below the placement of the ad for Curious on the site.
 - All of this is in the context of access being very important to audio sites in particular. It's one thing for me to lose access to a mobile game publisher or developer – it's another to lose access to companies that will send you expensive gear that your readership wants to know about. And Darko is pretty willing to play ball, clearly – he was one of the first to get the new DragonFly models, and look who advertises on his site...
  
 Am I accusing him of malicious impropriety, of selling out straight to the highest bidder? Nah, I know not every fishy-looking situation is foul business, but the possibility of him willing to say nice things about people who pay him is too high. I say this out of first-hand experience as a video game journalist. You obviously trust him, that's fair, keep trusting him! And it seems like he's building an audience that is meant to trust his informed expertise. I'm saying that based on what I know and there's legitimate reasons to regard his opinions with a huge heaping bowl of salt.
  
 Of course, Darko's probably rolling in cash compared to me, so I may just be an idiot. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


----------



## brent75

wondroushippo said:


> I keep trying to find a good way to put this.  - Curious is a site advertiser, Darko is the face of the site. Literally. Even if a firewall exists (and the about page of DAR gives no real indication beyond 'trust me'), you know who's advertising on your site because they're there. And these aren't random Google ads on the site.
> - The very idea of a $340 USB cable being worth the money is a claim that should be regarded with high skepticism to begin with.
> - To throw out measurements and blind testing in favor of "Trust me" is a cause for concern, but sure, cable testing and measurement is a dark art to begin with. It's just a concern when this statement is not far below the placement of the ad for Curious on the site.
> - All of this is in the context of access being very important to audio sites in particular. It's one thing for me to lose access to a mobile game publisher or developer – it's another to lose access to companies that will send you expensive gear that your readership wants to know about. And Darko is pretty willing to play ball, clearly – he was one of the first to get the new DragonFly models, and look who advertises on his site...
> ...


 
  
 I completely understand and agree with your POV. But I will say Darko does not strike me as somebody who refuses to bite the hand that feeds him. I feel that he's never been shy about pointing out what he feels are shortcomings/shortsightedness with Mojo in his multiple articles about it. And clearly they work together -- he just did a giveaway on behalf of Mojo, and I've seen their advertising on his site.


----------



## defbear

Someone responding to a Head-fi review said "So and so likes everything". The concern was if advertising revenue was being traded for favorable reviews. In my opinion nothing like that is going on here. There is so much good equipment out there that there is no reason to pick a poor piece of equipment and give it a bad review. That sounds simplistic but it's also why you usually do not see bad reviews in the magazines. Time is short and space is tight.


----------



## jmsaxon69

DragonFly Red was stunning some people at the AmpsandSound Table at Canlanta 2016, running into the Kenzie tube headphone amp. It was sounding amazingly good!


----------



## wondroushippo

brent75 said:


> I completely understand and agree with your POV. But I will say Darko does not strike me as somebody who refuses to bite the hand that feeds him. I feel that he's never been shy about pointing out what he feels are shortcomings/shortsightedness with Mojo in his multiple articles about it. And clearly they work together -- he just did a giveaway on behalf of Mojo, and I've seen their advertising on his site.


 
  
 Fair enough, think we just have different perspectives on this! 


defbear said:


> Someone responding to a Head-fi review said "So and so likes everything". The concern was if advertising revenue was being traded for favorable reviews. In my opinion nothing like that is going on here. There is so much good equipment out there that there is no reason to pick a poor piece of equipment and give it a bad review. That sounds simplistic but it's also why you usually do not see bad reviews in the magazines. Time is short and space is tight.


 
 I 10000% understand this, as someone who writes about mobile games and someone who has angered sponsors, hah. 
  
 --
  
 BTW, has anyone figured out what the power output and output impedance on this thing is? I know the previous dragonfly models were sub-1 ohm (though there was confusion regarding that, people think they were 12 ohms but Stereophile, I believe, measured at sub-1), and IEM performance doesn't seem warped in any way, where I can tell. And I know the DF 1.0 was 125 mW at 32 ohms, and that seems like the case still – the Q701 feels a bit underjuiced.
  
 Still, as a mobile-friendly tool for IEMs and anything that doesn't needs a bit extra juice but not too much (like the Nighthawk)...I really like the Red, super-glad I bought it, but think it's not quite perfect yet.


----------



## GerMan

deni5 said:


> Post 138
> _"I'm quite disappointed. Lots of hype over months, the sound was promised to improve enormously over 1.2. I used to hear with dragonfly 1.2 and AQ jitter bug on PC and could not wait for the new Red to appear. Well the difference is, the Red has more power, is louder, at he same time a bit darker, more veiled. Everything seems to be out of balance, no details, no separation of instruments. The new dragonflies were invented to work with mobile phones imho, that's the hole thing. Users with pc were promised a sound improvement over 1.2 at the same time which I cannot confirm at all and is only a marketing statement. I'm using AKG K-702 headphones, quite a precise and resolving machine. Hearing flac files with JRiver on PC with WASAPI, all settings optimized. Music is no longer flowing somehow. Heard the ifi micro idsd which is a LARGE step forward. The red is a step back to me."_
> 
> ---
> ...


 
  
 All you say is that everyone has different hearing impressions as everyone has got different hearing surroundings and different headphones. 
  
 First: I dont’t want to convince anyone, why should I?
  
 Second: I don’t want to say anything bad about Audioquest. Quite the contrary: I love my 1.2 and Jitterbug, only was really disappointed as Red was promised to be an enormous step forward which it isn’t with pc using. It is sounding somehow wrong to me (and obviously some others), as if an equalizer was activated, no longer linear. 
  
 AKG702 is not “far from being neutral”. This statement is nearly funny. In the internet you will find at least 8 to 10 reviews of studio and music professional magazines for music production where 702 is described as one of the most neutral headphones you can buy. As it is very precise and revealing, some people with not that revealing headphones describe it as “bright” sounding which it isn’t. You would be astonished to  h e a r  the 702 with Dragonfly 1.2. It delivers all the 702 needs when using with pc: dynamics, punch and power, it is totally controlling the 702. 
  
 Seems to me you  r e a d too much and  t h i n k  too much but you havn’t  h e a r d  702 with 1.2. I have. 
  
 What I have based on my opinion was not working with the “wrong” headphone but a direct comparison of 1.2 and Red using a very neutral headphone. Neither 1.2 nor Red is sounding bright with the 702. I did not say that.  
  
 First reviews of the Black and Red are appearing over here in Germany. You find writers are trying to be polite (as Darko does), avoiding to confirm that they were sounding very good (“reasonable DAC”). 
http://www.hifistatement.net/tests/item/1764-audioquest-dragonfly-black-und-red?start=2
  
 This will be my last post to this topic, as I already said, I don’t want to convince anybody. I only made my statement as some asked for 1.2 owners who compared to Red directly. What is more, it always seems to annoy fans of a hifi gadget to see others not loving their baby


----------



## defbear

I bought the DFR to use with my iPhone and IE800 iems. I added a Jitterbug which actually sounds better. This is a great sounding combo with the Onkyo app. So for giggles I plugged the DFR with and without the Jitterbug into my MacBook Pro. Into the DFR went my HD800 set with Norne Draug 2 cable and all. Amarra player. Well, the DFR drives the hd800 to excessive volume with bass and everything. A little screechy Dog! There is some digital sizzle around the edges of the treble. If I delete the Jitterbug the sound darkens down a bit. So the DFR will do with the hd800 in a pinch but not my best pairing. Say! My ZMF Omni set loves the DFR.


----------



## Deni5

german said:


> ..
> 
> AKG702 is not “far from being neutral”. This statement is nearly funny. In the internet you will find at least 8 to 10 reviews of studio and music professional magazines for music production where 702 is described as one of the most neutral headphones you can buy. As it is very precise and revealing, some people with not that revealing headphones describe it as “bright” sounding which it isn’t. You would be astonished to  h e a r  the 702 with Dragonfly 1.2. It delivers all the 702 needs when using with pc: dynamics, punch and power, it is totally controlling the 702.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I find it lacking some bass (even the K7XX which should have more bass) so that is why I wouldn't call it 'very neutral'. Anyway that term is vague and everyone has an opinion on what's neutral. For me a hp that has a good balance of bass, mids and treble is neutral (not in extremes like fatiguing treble or bass headache) - should cope with any music genre you throw at it (music like EDM, hip hop, reggae) not just the usual audiophile stuff.


----------



## joeexp

> Also the AKG K-702 are far from what I would call neutral, they are very bright and to shine they have to use a very powerful amp (1W+) - usb-powered not the best solution. And this is what you have based your opionion on - doesn't make that much sense.


 
  
 I can only confirm that the K702s are quite resolving - but far from being neutral!
  
 I have owned them for over two years and know what they sound like. The are actually a little bass-shy and a bit ear-piercing. YMMV.
 The are better phones out there in that price-range


----------



## romainsecco

canali said:


> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.extreamsd.usbaudioplayerpro&hl=en


 
 Great thanks, so I assume this won't be necessary on my laptop (Macbook)?


----------



## SpiderNhan

romainsecco said:


> Great thanks, so I assume this won't be necessary on my laptop (Macbook)?



Correct.


----------



## brent75

Correct - Mac is plug and play. You just have to go to System Preferences --> Audio the first time and select Dragonfly for output,


----------



## canali

so android smartphone streamers...I confirmed with UAPP tech that their app works with Tidal, but *not* with Spotify or Apple.
 steve of audioquest says in a further email to me that it's an issue they're trying to find a rational solution for.
  
 i understand there are licensing issues, but I can't understand why spotify wouldn't want to get into the game and possibly pull in more listeners if UAPP was compatible.
 i mean it's a way to offer 'better sound' without having to up their bitrate transfers...or am i missing something?


----------



## cribeiro

canali said:


> steve of audioquest says in a further email to me that it's an issue they're trying to find a rational solution for.


 
 I will follow this with highest interest. In the meantime, I am going to test a Fiio A1 as a compromise solution. I hope it pairs well with my Hifiman RE-400a. I tried a Meier Audio Porta Corda MKII connected to my HTC One M8 headphone output and the sound improved considerably, specially the bass - from a blurred noise to tuneful notes, immediately noticeable and not possible to achieve by just equalizing.
 Still, my old Iaudio X5L delivers better sound without amplifier. My guess is that the Hifiman have strong impedance swings in the bass frequencies, causing the problems in bass. The rest of the spectrum also suffers, even though the phone can apparently deliver a lot of power.
 Now, if I come near the sound of the Iaudio X5L just by using the Fiio A1, I probably will not look into the Dragonfly anymore...


----------



## SpiderNhan

canali said:


> so android smartphone streamers...I confirmed with UAPP tech that their app works with Tidal, but either Spotify nor Apple.
> steve of audioquest says in a further email to me that it's an issue they're trying to find a rational solution for.
> 
> i understand there are licensing issues, but I can't understand why spotify wouldn't want to get into the game and possibly pull in more listeners if UAPP was compatible.
> i mean it's a way to offer 'better sound' without having to up their bitrate transfers...or am i missing something?




My guess is the majority of smartphone and tablet users would never connect an external DAC to their devices. Just look at how few of them spend money on decent headphones. In New York City, where I live, 90% of the headphones I see when riding the subway or wandering the streets are either Apple earbuds/pods, Beats, Skullcandy, lower end Sonys, or Bose. The remaining 10% are the random earbuds/IEMS I can't identify and the occasional Sennheiser, B&W, B&O, MDR-V6/7506, and Audio-Technica. Recently I've been starting to spot V-MODA and Master & Dynamics. For B&W, B&O and M&D being sold in the Apple store helps.

How many external DACs have I have seen in my almost 4 years of living here?

Zero.

I saw a guy using a FiiO E6 with his iPhone once, but other than him I'm the only person I know who has strapped a DAC to his phone to go stomping around this city of 8-10 million.

It might not seem like it on Head-Fi, but audiophiles like us are a tiny community. There are probably more cat sitters than there are external DAC strappers in the world. 

So to answer your question, Spotify doesn't need us.


----------



## canali

yes i hear you, esp given the majority of spotify members, from what I understand,
 are NON paying members so are getting subpar quality and don't really care that  much about 'audiophile' level sound.
  
 i was listening to spotify 'extreme' yesterday (i'm a paying member) with my nexus 5 phone and sony mdr 7550 iems.
 Loved the sound...can't imagine how much better will be a UAPP app...or trying Alac or flac... and then to have a dragonfly or mojo hooked up as well....so if i'm enjoying it now, looking forward to enjoying it that much more once I step up the quality of source and equipment.
  
 I'm in the middle of buying an ipod touch 6 gen...trying to determine which is best: 32 gb of 64 gb since I stream so much and only have about 500 itunes i'd swap over, using some iflac tunes feature for better  transfer rates.
 would also be looking downloading more flac/alac quality files.
  
 Qu ote:


spidernhan said:


> My guess is the majority of smartphone and tablet users would never connect an external DAC to their devices. Just look at how few of them spend money on decent headphones. In New York City, where I live, 90% of the headphones I see when riding the subway or wandering the streets are either Apple earbuds/pods, Beats, Skullcandy, lower end Sonys, or Bose. The remaining 10% are the random earbuds/IEMS I can't identify and the occasional Sennheiser, B&W, B&O, MDR-V6/7506, and Audio-Technica. Recently I've been starting to spot V-MODA and Master & Dynamics. For B&W, B&O and M&D being sold in the Apple store helps.
> 
> How many external DACs have I have seen in my almost 4 years of living here?
> 
> ...


----------



## brent75

Canali -- 32GB is way more than enough storage for 500 tunes. However, to quote Wayne Gretzky, I'm a believer that you should "skate to where the puck is going to be -- not where it has been."
  
 In other words, what if you fall in love w/ owning FLAC files once you've downloaded a few albums, and find yourself getting more and more? What if you love your new set-up so much that you find yourself listening to music where streaming is not an option (and files have to be stored on device)? What if you go crazy and start getting into AIFFs? What if you think you'll only use your device for music, but find yourself wanting to add a few shows/movies/games for flights and things like that?
  
 There really is no telling the future, and since it's only a $50 difference for the jump to 64GB, I'd recommend ponying up if it doesn't break your budget.
  
 I personally just picked up the 128GB version this weekend. It's important to note -- you already "lose" chunk of it due to the apps/iOS/etc that already comes baked with it. With the songs I added (maybe 500 or so), I feel like I'm already down to 100GB or so...just going off memory. I can check tonight.
  
 FYI -- I had previously used Onkyo HF Player (and still really like it), but now I'm trying iAudioGate. I think the interface is much slicker and better looking than Onkyo's. Will report back on sound once I've spent some more time with it.
  
 Also, my Mojo just showed up today. I'm very familiar w/ the Red's sound as I've had it for 3 weeks...now I'm looking forward to finding out firsthand just how much of a difference I can hear between Mojo and Red.


----------



## canali

thanks Brent...i appreciate your imput.
 looking forward to your thoughts on the mojo vs red comparison.
  
  
 Quote:


brent75 said:


> Canali -- 32GB is way more than enough storage for 500 tunes. However, to quote Wayne Gretzky, I'm a believer that you should "skate to where the puck is going to be -- not where it has been."
> 
> In other words, what if you fall in love w/ owning FLAC files once you've downloaded a few albums, and find yourself getting more and more? What if you love your new set-up so much that you find yourself listening to music where streaming is not an option (and files have to be stored on device)? What if you go crazy and start getting into AIFFs? What if you think you'll only use your device for music, but find yourself wanting to add a few shows/movies/games for flights and things like that?
> 
> ...


----------



## jyang

bgravato said:


> JYang have you come to any conclusion?
> 
> I'm looking for a small usb dac to use with a Gigabyte Brix mini-pc (running Linux). I have no real interest in using it with any smartphone or the like.
> I haven't found yet any clear comparison between the DragonFly 1.2 and Black.
> ...


 
 Hi bgravato,
  
 I haven't decided yet. I'm leaning toward the v1.2, but am waiting to see if more reviews come out comparing the Black to v1.2, while keeping an eye on v1.2 availability.
  
 So I'm kind of still in the same boat as you -- really only have Darko's review. Though my use is slightly different; I'm not using headphones on PC (even though this is head-fi.org), but rather am using PC to amp to speakers.
  
 As I mentioned to GerMan, there were so many detailed reviews that came out for the v1.2 (stereophile, soundandvision, absolutesound, audioholics), but we don't have much for Black and Red.
  
 In one of your later posts you mentioned you might go ahead with the Black; did you do so, by any chance?


----------



## bgravato

jyang said:


> In one of your later posts you mentioned you might go ahead with the Black; did you do so, by any chance?


 
  
 Not yet and I haven't had the time to research more... It will depend on availability and price for each meanwhile... Hopefully more reviews will come out soon!


----------



## brent75

Ok. So I've had Red for about 3 weeks now (augmented by the Jitterbug). I'm definitely familiar with the sound and happy with it. But the entire time I've always been curious how it compares to Mojo. I've never been able to keep off the Mojo thread, and the fact that it's 1200+ pages now and that Mojo has so many glowing reviews on outside sites had me lusting for a difference. I knew I could not totally "settle" w/ the Red until I heard Mojo firsthand myself. So I sprung for it...got it yesterday...and here's my honest-to-goodness, completely transparent thought after a day of listening:
  
_*I personally can't tell any difference between Dragonfly Red and Mojo*._
  
 I can certainly tell they both improve the music on my laptop. But I can't really tell if one improves the music "better" than the other, and in fact honestly can't really tell them apart from each other in regards to how they improve the music. Both seem to give me better separation, better definition, better bass, etc.
  
 Keep in mind I ONLY plan on using my dac/amp for my laptop, as I'm perfectly happy with my Sine + Cipher plugged straight into my iPod Touch for portable. So maybe Mojo really separates from the pack when you get into mobile use...I don't know (it seems most everyone on the thread has it strapped to a phone or DAP). I'm also willing to admit I probably don't have golden ears (or silver ears, or bronze, or anything) -- and perhaps other folks can tell a night and day difference between the two.
  
 I plan on auditioning them a few more days since I have time before I'd have to return, but at this point I'd say I'm leaning towards returning the Mojo/keeping the Red and getting the $400 differential back. For me to fork over that difference, I REALLY wanted to hear a clear victory...but my ears just aren't finding it.
  
 (on top of that, I'd forgotten how convenient the Red is in NEVER having to recharge or plug into a wall...I can tell that maintaining my charge and whatnot would get slightly annoying after time, especially if I'm ready to listen but had forgotten and let it drain)


----------



## leaky74

+1 The red as a DAC with my MacBook vs the Mojo; not much in it at all. Throw in a decent value to performance amp and you can get better performance and still spend less than you would on the Mojo in my opinion. The portability/mobile use is something I'll rarely exploit.


----------



## Bianci1969

spidernhan said:


> My guess is the majority of smartphone and tablet users would never connect an external DAC to their devices. Just look at how few of them spend money on decent headphones. In New York City, where I live, 90% of the headphones I see when riding the subway or wandering the streets are either Apple earbuds/pods, Beats, Skullcandy, lower end Sonys, or Bose. The remaining 10% are the random earbuds/IEMS I can't identify and the occasional Sennheiser, B&W, B&O, MDR-V6/7506, and Audio-Technica. Recently I've been starting to spot V-MODA and Master & Dynamics. For B&W, B&O and M&D being sold in the Apple store helps.
> 
> How many external DACs have I have seen in my almost 4 years of living here?
> 
> ...


 

 You make interesting points.
  
 On the other hand brands such as Beats, Bose and Sony, while not what _you/we_ may consider "high-end" still cost a considerable amount of money. So, that's a reflection of value by the owner of those headphones. A person who decides to spend 500.00 on Beats or Bose has committed, to themselves at least, to treat music as a priority. Food for thought. 
  
 Maybe the reason we're not seeing a lot of portable players on our commutes is the options aren't all that portable (by non-audiophile standards). When in Tokyo, traveling for work, I'll from time-to-time see someone with a headphone amp/DAC rubber band strapped to their phones. Over there that was cool for a while. But is that portable in a practical sense? Maybe the new DragonFly's will break the mold and be seen (by a broader non-audiophile audience) as a practical enough solution. Or maybe they won't. Only time will tell.
  
_As a foot note to that – more times than not, when I'm on a plane I'll using my iPad to catch up on some movies, a DragonFly will elicit a tap on the shoulder followed by, "what's that?" and off I go ... _
  
 Steve Silberman
 AudioQuest
  
 PS - When not listening through my Vandersteen Quattro's I use NightHawk's and AKG 701's around the home. When up in the air its The Bose QC in-ear. I went with the Bose for travel because the noise-canceling is excellent and they're comfortable enough for a trans-oceanic journey. additionally, great battery life.


----------



## canali

agree per your points below:
 bricks are not truly, comfortably portable (as in walking around portable),
 nor are heavy daps...am sure as tech evolves we'll get there and portable audio will become truly... 'portable audio'
 even my local headfi retailer who sells the primo stuff (ak 380, etc) feels 'bricks' are becoming passe.
 can't wait for a few yrs when we'll have even better sound in a dragonfly sized device: unobtrusive because it's lightweight and small(ish).
  
 then you also get the new *HTC 10* (with it's own dac/amp) making it truly unique for a portable audiophile level smartphone.
 (like the LG V10)...lots of competition out there now.
*http://www.androidcentral.com/htc-10-audio-testing-boomsound-evolved*
  
 Quote:


bianci1969 said:


> *When in Tokyo, traveling for work, I'll from time-to-time see someone with a headphone amp/DAC rubber band strapped to their phones. Over there that was cool for a while. But is that portable in a practical sense? Maybe the new DragonFly's will break the mold and be seen (by a broader non-audiophile audience) as a practical enough solution. Or maybe they won't. Only time will tell.*
> 
> _As a foot note to that – more times than not, when I'm on a plane I'll using my iPad to catch up on some movies, a DragonFly will elicit a tap on the shoulder followed by, "what's that?" and off I go ... _
> 
> ...


----------



## SpiderNhan

brent75 said:


> Ok. So I've had Red for about 3 weeks now (augmented by the Jitterbug). I'm definitely familiar with the sound and happy with it. But the entire time I've always been curious how it compares to Mojo. I've never been able to keep off the Mojo thread, and the fact that it's 1200+ pages now and that Mojo has so many glowing reviews on outside sites had me lusting for a difference. I knew I could not totally "settle" w/ the Red until I heard Mojo firsthand myself. So I sprung for it...got it yesterday...and here's my honest-to-goodness, completely transparent thought after a day of listening:
> 
> _*I personally can't tell any difference between Dragonfly Red and Mojo*._
> 
> ...







leaky74 said:


> +1 The red as a DAC with my MacBook vs the Mojo; not much in it at all. Throw in a decent value to performance amp and you can get better performance and still spend less than you would on the Mojo in my opinion. The portability/mobile use is something I'll rarely exploit.




You guys are saving me a lot of money.


----------



## emil12

Hello. Im kinda new to all hifi. I have bought a pair of ATH M50x which sound very good. Then i borrowed from my friend Dragonfly 1.2 and they sounded great compared to integrated audio card in my laptop. Now i have a choose to make. 
 Should I buy an old 1.2 which I have tested and it sounds good with my headphones, also works with my Z3 compact, but of course drains battery. Or should I buy the new Black version? I am a bit afraid it wont sound as good as with 1.2 version, also I am worried about lower voltage compared to 1.2. 
 The Red version would be the best, but it is out of my price range. 
 Thanks for your answer.


----------



## brent75

emil12 said:


> Hello. Im kinda new to all hifi. I have bought a pair of ATH M50x which sound very good. Then i borrowed from my friend Dragonfly 1.2 and they sounded great compared to integrated audio card in my laptop. Now i have a choose to make.
> Should I buy an old 1.2 which I have tested and it sounds good with my headphones, also works with my Z3 compact, but of course drains battery. Or should I buy the new Black version? I am a bit afraid it wont sound as good as with 1.2 version, also I am worried about lower voltage compared to 1.2.
> The Red version would be the best, but it is out of my price range.
> Thanks for your answer.


 
 Are you able to buy from a place that allows a return? That's the best bet -- and if you are, then I would start with Black and see if you like it. If you do, you're done. If you don't, you can return and purchase the 1.2, which for you is a known quantity (and may not have as good of a return policy).


----------



## SeeSax

canali said:


> so android smartphone streamers...I confirmed with UAPP tech that their app works with Tidal, but either Spotify nor Apple.
> steve of audioquest says in a further email to me that it's an issue they're trying to find a rational solution for.
> 
> i understand there are licensing issues, but I can't understand why spotify wouldn't want to get into the game and possibly pull in more listeners if UAPP was compatible.
> i mean it's a way to offer 'better sound' without having to up their bitrate transfers...or am i missing something?


 
  
 Can you help me understand this a bit more? I am interested in using the Dragonfly Red with my Galaxy S7 and my primary source of music is Tidal. I have read that streaming is "not good" with the Dragonfly connected to an Android device, so are you suggesting I can somehow use the UAPP app to make this work better? I don't have a DAC with me right now, but I used Tidal and my earphones and cannot figure out any way to integrate UAPP (trial version) with Tidal. Can you please help me out, I would be GREATLY appreciative because I am loving the idea of this small combo instead of my Oppo HA-2. 
  
 Thanks!
  
 -Collin-


----------



## waynes world

seesax said:


> Can you help me understand this a bit more? I am interested in using the Dragonfly Red with my Galaxy S7 and my primary source of music is Tidal. I have read that streaming is "not good" with the Dragonfly connected to an Android device, so are you suggesting I can somehow use the UAPP app to make this work better? I don't have a DAC with me right now, but I used Tidal and my earphones and cannot figure out any way to integrate UAPP (trial version) with Tidal. Can you please help me out, I would be GREATLY appreciative because I am loving the idea of this small combo instead of my Oppo HA-2.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> -Collin-


 
  
 From the google play app page:
  


> *Android 5 users:* although Android 5 has some support for USB DACs, it is limited to 16-bit and sample rates of 44100/48000Hz. For high quality playback, you still need this app to enjoy 24-bit music at any sample rate your DAC supports.


 
  
 Tidal is one of the main source options in the UAPP app:


----------



## canali

seesax said:


> Can you help me understand this a bit more? I am interested in using the Dragonfly Red with my Galaxy S7 and my primary source of music is Tidal. I have read that streaming is "not good" with the Dragonfly connected to an Android device, so are you suggesting I can somehow use the UAPP app to make this work better? I don't have a DAC with me right now, but I used Tidal and my earphones and cannot figure out any way to integrate UAPP (trial version) with Tidal. Can you please help me out, I would be GREATLY appreciative because I am loving the idea of this small combo instead of my Oppo HA-2.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> -Collin-


 
 first i apologize for not being an informed as many are on here...and in my post i meant to say (now corrected)
 that the UAPP app works only with Tidal currently (and not  with spotify or apple).
  
 ...i think both steve and others have explained it better than do I ...something about a licencing agreement
 between Tidal and UAPP...wherein you access Tidal THRU the UAPP app.
 Am i correct folks? can someone help expand and clarify this, please?


----------



## WhiteNoises

Hey guys,

I haven't posted here for a while. I am still forming more final thoughts on my Dragonfly Red, and I will get back to y'all when I'm ready. 

I remember there was a guy suspicious of me saying the iPhone DAC is well regarded. I said What Hifi heaped praise on iPhones audio performance, and I still stand by it. However I found this review of the iPhone 6 Plus, it describes iPhone's DAC essentially as "perfect". http://www.kenrockwell.com/apple/iphone-6-plus.htm

Now, so far the sound from the Dragonfly Red is what I prefer to my iPad Air, but not by a huge margin. It's more 3D and perhaps ever so slightly more detailed. Full thoughts later. 

Kind regards,
Matej


----------



## SpiderNhan

whitenoises said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I haven't posted here for a while. I am still forming more final thoughts on my Dragonfly Red, and I will get back to y'all when I'm ready.
> 
> ...



I think a lot descriptions about audio gear over emphasize the differences between equipment. A little more 3D and clarity is exactly what you're paying for. iPhone has a good DAC. Dragonfly has a slightly better DAC. 


The Sennheiser HD800 S is $1700, while the Stax SR-009 is $3500, more than twice the cost. No one is going to hear a $1800 difference in sound. Even the AKG K7XX at $199 won't sound $3301 worse than the SR-009. It'll sound a little less 3D, less precise, not as accurate, but it'll still sound good. Why? Because all three are good headphones. Once you get to a certain point, all you can expect is "a little better."

It's like adding cheese to a hamburger or ketchup to French fries. It doesn't change one thing to something else. It's just makes it a little better.


----------



## SeeSax

waynes world said:


> From the google play app page:
> 
> 
> Tidal is one of the main source options in the UAPP app:


 
  
 Thank you so much, I really appreciate that. It was right in front of my face!
  


canali said:


> first i apologize for not being an informed as many are on here...and in my post i meant to say (now corrected)
> that the UAPP app works only with Tidal currently (and not  with spotify or apple).
> 
> ...i think both steve and others have explained it better than do I ...something about a licencing agreement
> ...


 
  
 I understood your post, was just asking how to use it with Tidal as per above. Thanks! 
  
 -Collin-


----------



## west0ne

Last time I tried UAPP it was only working with 'Tidal' streaming and didn't work with any downloaded content, not sure if that has changed but if it's still the same it would limit when/how you can use the DF RED/BLACK with Tidal on your Android device.


----------



## WhiteNoises

spidernhan said:


> I think a lot descriptions about audio gear over emphasize the differences between equipment. A little more 3D and clarity is exactly what you're paying for. iPhone has a good DAC. Dragonfly has a slightly better DAC.
> 
> 
> The Sennheiser HD800 S is $1700, while the Stax SR-009 is $3500, more than twice the cost. No one is going to hear a $1800 difference in sound. Even the AKG K7XX at $199 won't sound $3301 worse than the SR-009. It'll sound a little less 3D, less precise, not as accurate, but it'll still sound good. Why? Because all three are good headphones. Once you get to a certain point, all you can expect is "a little better."
> ...




I agree with you. Many times, I fail to perceive ANY difference between the iPad and Dragonfly Red, and that's while listening to jazz on Tidal Hifi. Anyway, today I ordered a HD600 and HD650 (I will return the one I like less), I'm curious to compare how the Dragonfly drives those compared to my Momentum 2s, and whether there will be more difference between the Red and the iPad with those. If not, I will return the Dragonfly Red.


----------



## John Culter

brent75 said:


> Ok. So I've had Red for about 3 weeks now (augmented by the Jitterbug). I'm definitely familiar with the sound and happy with it. But the entire time I've always been curious how it compares to Mojo. I've never been able to keep off the Mojo thread, and the fact that it's 1200+ pages now and that Mojo has so many glowing reviews on outside sites had me lusting for a difference. I knew I could not totally "settle" w/ the Red until I heard Mojo firsthand myself. So I sprung for it...got it yesterday...and here's my honest-to-goodness, completely transparent thought after a day of listening:
> 
> _*I personally can't tell any difference between Dragonfly Red and Mojo*._
> 
> ...


 
 +1 same here
  
 did some listening with Ultimate Ears Reference Remastered and Shure SE846 - there is mostly no audible difference for the regular person. Mojo should be technically superior to Dragonfly, and I believe some measurements can prove it.. but it doesn't mean for the regular use, there are some day / night sound signature changes.
  
 Audioquest with it's price point wins the race when used with in-ears. Can't tell the power abilities with 300 or 600 ohm cans..
 Unbeatable size / portability. No battery, no charging. Volume control. No overheating.


----------



## canali

question, everyone: on those using the dragontail cable
 (and i'm not trying to have this become a cables discussion diversion):
 is it built any differently than a generic $5 cable no name brand from my local electronics retailer?
  
 still deciding on red vs blk...i have nothing difficult to drive.


----------



## link89

I just bought a Dragonfly Black from Richer Sounds in London Bridge. And then purchased an Android On The Go cable from Maplin, part number A83QH (£11.99). I have Sennheiser IE800 earphones.

Trouble is, when I plug in the Dragonfly to my Galaxy S4 (UK i9505 version running Android 5.0.1), my ear phones just produce a loud constant tone of electrical noise mixed with static. Spotify, Youtube, et, are all unable to be used, even Samsung notification/confirmation sounds are provided to me as a sharp jackhammer of electrical noise into both my ears. There's nothing identifiable.

The Android cable usb plug hole depth seems to only fit half of the Dragonfly inside, so I was wondering if that was the issue?

Pic of cable here: http://imgur.com/wSgFBh9

That's as deep as it goes.


----------



## English Gent

Just received the Dragonfly Red. to be honest was hoping it would be close with my Mojo, so I could use it as main with my SE846 and SRH1540
  
 So far Ive done limited testing, but can say with ease, its not going to replace the Mojo, or even close (to my ears)
  
 Tested with iPhone and Macbook and Flacplayer and Fideila on Mac.
  
 As for iPhone it might be worth keeping for upgrade to power and sound, and is great pick up and go portable solution, never did get to take Mojo out much even after getting custom cable to make it easy.
  
 but when used as a desktop solution Mojo wins hands down, I found myself forgetting I was testing and listening to the full track with the Mojo, it has such depth and foot taping abilities.
  
 Will do more testing with other types of music (so far just Radiohead, Zeppelin, Jazz funk and Bowie)
  
 Hope that helps anyone about to buy this for same reason as me!


----------



## SpiderNhan

link89 said:


> I just bought a Dragonfly Black from Richer Sounds in London Bridge. And then purchased an Android On The Go cable from Maplin, part number A83QH (£11.99). I have Sennheiser IE800 earphones.
> 
> Trouble is, when I plug in the Dragonfly to my Galaxy S4 (UK i9505 version running Android 5.0.1), my ear phones just produce a loud constant tone of electrical noise mixed with static. Spotify, Youtube, et, are all unable to be used, even Samsung notification/confirmation sounds are provided to me as a sharp jackhammer of electrical noise into both my ears. There's nothing identifiable.
> 
> ...



The USB connector on the Dragonfly is very long. That is how it looks with my cable too.

Try downloading Onkyo HF Player or USB Audio Player Pro and see if the DF works. Also try using a different OTG cable. Android cables are very sensitive.


----------



## leaky74

canali said:


> question, everyone: on those using the dragontail cable
> (and i'm not trying to have this become a cables discussion diversion):
> is it built any differently than a generic $5 cable no name brand from my local electronics retailer?
> 
> still deciding on red vs blk...i have nothing difficult to drive.




I can't quite answer your question but what I have found, to my ears, is that Dragontail->Jitterbug->Red sounds better than plugging the jitterbug directly into a USB port.


----------



## brent75

leaky74 said:


> I can't quite answer your question but what I have found, to my ears, is that Dragontail->Jitterbug->Red sounds better than plugging the jitterbug directly into a USB port.


 
 I have (and love) that exact same combo. I can't exactly articulate how it sounds better WITH this combo...but more like I think it sounds worse WITHOUT it. A slight clean/less noisy/less fatiguing effect? I feel like I can listen a tad quieter too.
  
 The added bonus is it allows me to sit on couch with laptop quite comfortably. When the long Red was sticking out of my computer w/ the headphones plugged in, I didn't love the stress on the USB -- it just seemed to float and want to sag (even if it didn't). The Jitterbug + Tail allows me to sit in pretty much any combination and have Red resting comfortably.


----------



## Deni5

canali said:


> question, everyone: on those using the dragontail cable
> (and i'm not trying to have this become a cables discussion diversion):
> is it built any differently than a generic $5 cable no name brand from my local electronics retailer?
> 
> still deciding on red vs blk...i have nothing difficult to drive.


 
  
 Yes, you could say it's built different. It consist of higher quality material as in it's silver plated (solid 5% silver conductors and direct-silver plated male USB contacts). Still it's built to be transparent as in not coloring the sound at all. Then again at that short length a generic cable should be very transparent as well.
  
 You might look into the Jitterbug if you plan to run it with a computer. Most DACs benefit from cleaner power and since the Dragonfly is USB-powered Jitterbug provides just that.
  
 Here's a good review
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRIt0BYAjTo


----------



## frifox

Windows 10. System volume at 2% and foobar2k volume at 20%. Anything higher would make it louder than I'm comfortable with. Similar story with my Galaxy S7, currently the lowest 1/15 setting and it's still too damn loud. What's worse is on the cellphone the hiss is just unbearable (similar to setting system volume to 100% on the PC), both normal apps and with UAPP.
  
 Is my Dragonfly Black defective? I'm listening with 64Audio A12 and U12 ciems.
  
 If it's not defective, is there a way to limit how loud the DAC is allowed to go up to? I'm actually a bit scared to hit play every time I plug in the DAC, already caused my ears to ring for a minute after PC decided to play at 100%. Panic-ripping out the A12's was pretty painful too :/


----------



## Devodonaldson

frifox said:


> Windows 10. System volume at 2% and foobar2k volume at 20%. Anything higher would make it louder than I'm comfortable with. Similar story with my Galaxy S7, currently the lowest 1/15 setting and it's still too damn loud. What's worse is on the cellphone the hiss is just unbearable (similar to setting system volume to 100% on the PC), both normal apps and with UAPP.
> 
> Is my Dragonfly Black defective? I'm listening with 64Audio A12 and U12 ciems.
> 
> If it's not defective, is there a way to limit how loud the DAC is allowed to go up to? I'm actually a bit scared to hit play every time I plug in the DAC, already caused my ears to ring for a minute after PC decided to play at 100%. Panic-ripping out the A12's was pretty painful too :/



In UAPP on the play screen hit the menu button top right, lower the hardware volume.


----------



## John Culter

english gent said:


> Just received the Dragonfly Red. to be honest was hoping it would be close with my Mojo, so I could use it as main with my SE846 and SRH1540
> 
> So far Ive done limited testing, but can say with ease, its not going to replace the Mojo, or even close (to my ears)
> 
> ...


 
 Very interesting. Looks like you have very good ears. So you are able to pass the blind test anytime with the SE846 on the Mojo / Dragonfly Red?


----------



## English Gent

Recon I could, with the music Ive listened to in admittedly short time, the soundstage and bass extension on the Mojo is better to my ears, and far more refined, same track on the Dragonfly makes my headphones crackle on same(ish) volume.
  
 Going to do more listening today on iPhone.


----------



## GerMan

frifox said:


> Windows 10. System volume at 2% and foobar2k volume at 20%. Anything higher would make it louder than I'm comfortable with.


 
  
 I also found the Dragonfly Red to be much too loud when using it with Windows PC, as it obviously was optimized for smartphone usage. I also was shocked when using it with PC and JRiver MC and foobar. Sent it back as obviously the new target group is no longer PC user as it was in former times. UAPP of course is no solution when using it with Windows and foobar or JRiver. 
  
 Switches back to my Dragonfly 1.2 which is highly acclaimed with PC usage.


----------



## brent75

It's interesting how people have so many varying takeaways from these. I actually prefer my Red on my laptop than I do on my iPhone.


----------



## SpiderNhan

I have no issues with my Win10 laptop, Win10 PC, Android 5.1.1 or Android 6.0.1 smartphones using both JRiver MC and UAPP. Poweramp Alpha and Onkyo HF Player also work great on Android. 

You can also use an Android emulator on the PC and run UAPP. Never tried it.


----------



## link89

spidernhan said:


> The USB connector on the Dragonfly is very long. That is how it looks with my cable too.
> 
> Try downloading Onkyo HF Player or USB Audio Player Pro and see if the DF works. Also try using a different OTG cable. Android cables are very sensitive.


 
  
 Onkyo HF Player just oddly plays back sound in 'fastforward', it's useless gibberish.
  
  
 But WHOA.....USB Audio Player Pro on the other hand cost me £5.80 on the Playstore but it works perfectly! Instrument separation and bass is a hundred times better than without the DAC. Very satisfied with the quality.
  
 However I'm not sure how I'm meant to listen to streaming services as I had to download MP3s and move them onto my phone's SD card in order for the music to be tested. Day to day I rely on Spotify but from what I read on the net, USB Audio Player Pro should actually work with Tidal so I'm about to give that a go. Whereas if I try to play Spotify with the DAC connected, it just plays music through the phone speakers as opposed to through the earphones. 
  
 Also, the DAC works beautifully with my laptop, it is a touch too 'bright' for my ears (in agreement with other users on these boards) and as a result I've found that my favourite setting is to tick the Bass-Boost option (Spotify has no equalizer) in the WIndows 10 Sound device settings (see here: http://imgur.com/pHtn8Ic ) it kind of puts a damper on the brightness and it also boosts the bass, which actually sounds incredible if you like a lot of hip hop and dance music, particularly thru the Sennheiser IE800's which produce bass extremely cleanly, especially the sub bass like a subwoofer in a bass-head's car or something.  I never realised these IEMs were capable of sounding like this, since the Dragonfly black is the first DAC i've ever owned. Very happy with it.
  
 There is one flaw I've noticed with Spotify+Windows 10 usage and that is every few minutes (maybe at each 10-15mins) it very briefly severely warps the music you are listening to, into what I can only describe as 'slow motion' with some robotic tones thrown in, almost as if the sound suddenly gets stuck in molasses for 3-5 seconds. It's very obvious and distracting. Not the faintest clue what causes this.


----------



## frifox

german said:


> I also found the Dragonfly Red to be much too loud when using it with Windows PC, as it obviously was optimized for smartphone usage. I also was shocked when using it with PC and JRiver MC and foobar. Sent it back as obviously the new target group is no longer PC user as it was in former times. UAPP of course is no solution when using it with Windows and foobar or JRiver.
> 
> Switches back to my Dragonfly 1.2 which is highly acclaimed with PC usage.




I'm suspecting I'll have to do the same, returning the product and continue looking for other solutions. Primary my usage is going to be mobile, which I guess would be make me the target audience but DF just doesn't work. 

I use many other apps, such as Spotify, PlayerPro, Crunchyroll, YouTube, etc. Using only one app, UAPP, is not a solution. 

Guess I'm back to FiiO E17 for now. Pitch black noise floor and works flawlessly with both PC and Mobile. I'll continue looking for other "micro" dacs like this DF in the meantime. The E17 while working perfect it's a bit on the large side for a device I'd like to be portable...

Unless, DF and Android start playing nice together which I'm highly hoping for. The quality out of DF when it does work is nothing short of amazing!


----------



## HerrWallen

Having spent some time with my RED I'm really starting to enjoy it, many of the things that worried me in my initial impression settled in quite nicely.
 The general SQ and power to drive is some of the strong points here, fitting my need for an compact laptop DAC+AMP when away from my desk and transparent desktop DAC connected to my amp of choice for very hard-to-drive-headphones.
  


frifox said:


> Windows 10. System volume at 2% and foobar2k volume at 20%. Anything higher would make it louder than I'm comfortable with. Similar story with my Galaxy S7, currently the lowest 1/15 setting and it's still too damn loud. What's worse is on the cellphone the hiss is just unbearable (similar to setting system volume to 100% on the PC), both normal apps and with UAPP.


 
  
 Wow, those IEMs must be super-sensitive! Most of my ready-for-iDevices gets enjoyably loud at around 20% (Win10 system volume, music player at 100%) on my RED with some room left for "rocking out" even higher. The Fostex T50RPs (Mk3) on the other hand have to be roughly at 50% (still, system volume) for the same volume-level.
  


german said:


> I also found the Dragonfly Red to be much too loud when using it with Windows PC, as it obviously was optimized for smartphone usage. I also was shocked when using it with PC and JRiver MC and foobar. Sent it back as obviously the new target group is no longer PC user as it was in former times. UAPP of course is no solution when using it with Windows and foobar or JRiver.
> 
> Switches back to my Dragonfly 1.2 which is highly acclaimed with PC usage.


 
  
 I don´t really "get" this target group argument at all. In my (humble) opinion it pairs extremely well with my PCs, both as DAC+AMP and as DAC connected to external AMP.
 Naturally, I haven't listened to every available DAC but I have some recent experience with the HRT Music Streamer II+ and I must say that the RED comes really close to it (and even surpassing in some areas) despite the RED retailing well below the HRT when it was available.
  
 Did you let the RED settle in before you returned it? One thing I've found after 40~ish hours is that the upper mids and treble seemed to calm down, going from "shouty" to engaged and connecting much better with the lower octaves over-all.
  
 I haven't heard the 1.2 but it must be a pretty amazing device if it's better than the RED.
  


link89 said:


> There is one flaw I've noticed with Spotify+Windows 10 usage and that is every few minutes (maybe at each 10-15mins) it very briefly severely warps the music you are listening to, into what I can only describe as 'slow motion' with some robotic tones thrown in, almost as if the sound suddenly gets stuck in molasses for 3-5 seconds. It's very obvious and distracting. Not the faintest clue what causes this.


 
  
 I haven't notice any weirdness in Spotify at all on at least three PCs (Windows 7, 10 and Ubuntu Linux, mixed and/or dual-booting) and I spend at least two hours a day with it as source. 
 Have you tried your Dragonfly on any other PC?


----------



## canali

jehugo said:


> For the red vs black debate... using black with ie800s. It's a fantastic upgrade to a mobile device. If red has one iota of treble bias over black, I would not choose it over black.
> 
> Is this contraption better than dedicated daps? Not to my ears by a long shot. But for the the price It's fantastic for no nonsense on the go great SQ that will leave you consoled if you have to sell the dap for food.


 
  
 i have these sony 7550 iems, too....love the sound, but imo the fit and isolation could be better.
 I will be heading back to my retailer to listen to the black, red and the mojo: all over again, lol.
  
  
 thought i would share:
 heads up i've just ordered these new babies:
 the new *1more e1001*...getting good reviews for supposedly kicking above their modest $100 price point.
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/808683/1more-e1001-triple-driver-in-ear-headphones-review/15#post_12612889


----------



## stuck limo

link89 said:


> There is one flaw I've noticed with Spotify+Windows 10 usage and that is every few minutes (maybe at each 10-15mins) it very briefly severely warps the music you are listening to, into what I can only describe as 'slow motion' with some robotic tones thrown in, almost as if the sound suddenly gets stuck in molasses for 3-5 seconds. It's very obvious and distracting. Not the faintest clue what causes this.


 
  
   
My friend is having that SAME EXACT ISSUE with Windows 7 + local files + Spotify + Dragonfly Black 1.5  on 2 different computers --- his Windows 7 + my Windows 10.......He's about to return because he's so upset about it and it won't stop doing it.


----------



## GerMan

herrwallen said:


> I haven't heard the 1.2 but it must be a pretty amazing device if it's better than the RED.


 
  
 Well, it's just my personal opinion after comparing it over days to Red with PC and foobar 2000/JRiver MC. Others may come to different conclusions. At least 1.2  it had been highly acclaimed by most pc users, online and print hifi magazines for yeras. The first reviews I read about the Red are a bit cautious, not that excited they had been with 1.2. Waht is more, over 90% in this forum seem to use it mobile, so the have no direct comparison to 1.2. What strikes me a little is I find a bit too much of criticism here ragarding that the Red had been praised heavily prematuerly.


----------



## complete

I I was vacillating between black/red, really red 100.-usd deserves the price difference?


----------



## zolom

Got the Black today. Conected it to my non rooted exynos S7 edge, playing Spotify. 
 Althog sound volume level is quite low (had to push the s7 volume very high), I can still enjoy very good SQ via my Shure se846 IEM, usiing the Noozxoide Eizo Pro as my main equalizer provides spacious sound with good bass, far exceeding the native s7 sound as well as the HRT dSP dac/amp.
  
 Hope a coming DFB firmware update will improve the volume issue for the s7
  
 Thanks AQ.


----------



## canali

complete said:


> I I was vacillating between black/red, really red 100.-usd deserves the price difference?


 
  
 so complete: big SQ difference with/without the black?
  
 and as per upgrading to the Red, well that is my question, too..esp given i wouldn't use it to drive any hard iems/cans.
  
 downloaded all my spotify songs and apple itunes as (offline)
 'extreme' (lol 340kps files) onto my new (and nifty) ipod touch 6
 ....eats more space but better sounding.


----------



## jyang

stuck limo said:


> My friend is having that SAME EXACT ISSUE with Windows 7 + local files + Spotify + Dragonfly Black 1.5  on 2 different computers --- his Windows 7 + my Windows 10.......He's about to return because he's so upset about it and it won't stop doing it.


 
  
 I've had this issue too with Win7, and now with Win10... and for me, it's not Dragonfly, because I'm only using onboard audio right now. For me it happens when CPU load is at or near 100% (or perhaps when other resources are low), and I don't recall earlier version of Windows having this sound effect when other process are sucking cycles from audio. And for me it's either local files on Foobar2k, or Youtube audio, pretty much any source.
  
 There actually is an app called "Fidelizer", which has its own thread here, which should help to address this problem (if it is low PC resources for you guys too), which I haven't tried much yet: http://www.head-fi.org/t/794314/fidelizer-appreciation-and-impressions-thread
  
 I also tried an app which exclusively sets process priority of apps higher or lower, "Prio", on Win7 (not available on Win10, though there are similar ones that are), and had some luck with it, though I imagine you wouldn't use it at the same time as Fidelizer.


----------



## complete

thanks canali,Red for + 100 are proud of the value.


----------



## stuck limo

jyang said:


> I've had this issue too with Win7, and now with Win10... and for me, it's not Dragonfly, because I'm only using onboard audio right now. For me it happens when CPU load is at or near 100% (or perhaps when other resources are low), and I don't recall earlier version of Windows having this sound effect when other process are sucking cycles from audio. And for me it's either local files on Foobar2k, or Youtube audio, pretty much any source.
> 
> There actually is an app called "Fidelizer", which has its own thread here, which should help to address this problem (if it is low PC resources for you guys too), which I haven't tried much yet: http://www.head-fi.org/t/794314/fidelizer-appreciation-and-impressions-thread
> 
> I also tried an app which exclusively sets process priority of apps higher or lower, "Prio", on Win7 (not available on Win10, though there are similar ones that are), and had some luck with it, though I imagine you wouldn't use it at the same time as Fidelizer.


 
  
 I am pretty sure 99.99999999% that it's Dragonfly related. If it was not Dragonfly related, my other DACs would have issues and they don't. The issue has only occurred with specifically the Dragonfly Black. I have a Geek Out V2 and a Geek Out 450 and they're rock solid for performance.


----------



## jyang

stuck limo said:


> I am pretty sure 99.99999999% that it's Dragonfly related. If it was not Dragonfly related, my other DACs would have issues and they don't. The issue has only occurred with specifically the Dragonfly Black. I have a Geek Out V2 and a Geek Out 450 and they're rock solid for performance.


 
  
 It might be Dragonfly related -- Dragonfly might be contributing to it -- but it can't be the only reason, since I don't have a Dragonfly. That is if we're seeing the same issue (robotic sound, with slowing down).
  
 I don't know. It's possible Dragonfly uses more PC resources than other USB DAC's? -- that would at least explain what we're seeing -- though I don't know how likely that is.


----------



## canali

well as per the above, all i can say is thank god for firmware uprgradeability.


----------



## stuck limo

canali said:


> well as per the above, all i can say is thank god for firmware uprgradeability.


 
  
 Yeah, too bad it's unusable until the fix comes in. If the fix ever comes in. This is the second Dragonfly product I haven't been impressed with. The first time I bought the 1.2 after much hype and it sounded no better than my on-board soundcard in my laptop.
  
 Then we get the brand new Black after much hype, and the thing is causing technical issues. Not to mention all the Android havoc that people are running into.


----------



## canali

i am leaning towards the red for my ipod, iphone and (eventually) a tablet


----------



## leaky74

I'm curious; has anyone tried plugging a Dragonfy into an uptone USB Regen?


----------



## Duncan

Different tangent, but the red plays nicely with the Jitterbug (as you'd hope, being the same manufacturer!), but something I don't get (and this afflicts the chord Hugo too) on the Samsung S7, the quick connect function shows up correctly but doesn't seem to work, am I missing something simple?


----------



## pinoyman

can someone compare the red dragonfly vs. the mojo? im interested in it  
 hoping someone will comment on it...


----------



## Duncan

pinoyman said:


> can someone compare the red dragonfly vs. the mojo? im interested in it
> hoping someone will comment on it...


I could when I get home later if no one beats me to it, what are you wanting to compare, any particular specifics? also, what usage scenario, as that will make a difference (my pocket feels liberated, that's a fact!)

Oh, I've answered my own question above... If the screen is, the volume doesn't change if wanting to adjust, screen off (or case closed in my case) the volume control works as it should... Odd!


----------



## pinoyman

duncan said:


> I could when I get home later if no one beats me to it, what are you wanting to compare, any particular specifics? also, what usage scenario, as that will make a difference (my pocket feels liberated, that's a fact!)
> 
> Oh, I've answered my own question above... If the screen is, the volume doesn't change if wanting to adjust, screen off (or case closed in my case) the volume control works as it should... Odd!


 

 thank you very much!
 youre heaven sent.
 ill wait for you 
  
 just sound quality alone.
 im only wanting to know their difference.


----------



## SpiderNhan

duncan said:


> I could when I get home later if no one beats me to it, what are you wanting to compare, any particular specifics? also, what usage scenario, as that will make a difference (my pocket feels liberated, that's a fact!)
> 
> Oh, I've answered my own question above... If the screen is, the volume doesn't change if wanting to adjust, screen off (or case closed in my case) the volume control works as it should... Odd!


 
 That's how UAPP handles volume control with an external DAC. If you have UAPP open in the foreground you can control volume with the screen on.


----------



## leaky74

pinoyman said:


> can someone compare the red dragonfly vs. the mojo? im interested in it
> hoping someone will comment on it...




I compared the 1.2 to the Mojo & the Mojo was clearly superior.

With the red the differences (used with my MacBook) compared to the mojo were so subtle, to my ears, as to be negligible. That coupled with portability etc meant I sold the mojo and used the cash to part fund a new amp. The Red fed into a Violectric amp sounds superb. 

As I say, my experience of both the red & mojo have been with a MacBook but I dare say I'll find the red more convenient (with an iPhone), on the odd occasions I might use it on the go.

It's a good month ago so the details around the characteristics of the mojo vs the red have faded a bit. From memory though; the Mojo was warmer/smoother which, coupled with my Nighthawks, I found to be ever so slightly dark (I apologise for my lack of audiophile terminology!). The Red on the other hand I found to be a better partner for the Nighthawks (I guess inevitably so given in house testing etc), adding just a smidging of brightness that benifited the mids. 

If you can I guess the advice is, as ever, try & audition both.

Sorry I can't be any more help than that.


----------



## Duncan

It is quite scary how things progress, I had an original DF (v1) and thought it was just 'OK', whereas the red is genuinely exciting me 

Oh, and either major coincidence or the jitterbug does what it's supposed to, no pops / distortion since plugging it in... Snake oil or no snake oil, it works for me


----------



## leaky74

Can I ask a real dumb ass question - could a software update potentially make the Red MQA compatible or is it missing something from a hardware perspective?


----------



## Duncan

leaky74 said:


> Can I ask a real dumb ass question - could a software update potentially make the Red MQA compatible or is it missing something from a hardware perspective?


a hack maybe, but then it would be breaking it's own purpose (power efficiency)... Maybe a new colour could be released that isn't power efficient that would get around that


----------



## pinoyman

leaky74 said:


> I compared the 1.2 to the Mojo & the Mojo was clearly superior.
> 
> With the red the differences (used with my MacBook) compared to the mojo were so subtle, to my ears, as to be negligible. That coupled with portability etc meant I sold the mojo and used the cash to part fund a new amp. The Red fed into a Violectric amp sounds superb.
> 
> ...




Thank you very much for that helpful input.
Im just measuring if there is something else that would be an alternative or something that would better mojo in its price range.

You mean, for the red to be really appreciated, you needed to pair it with an amp? Did i get it right? Straight as standalone wouldnt it be good already?

Also theres the astrapi and aegis who rivals this in its class.

Sorry for asking, but i plan to let go of my mojo and use the money for an iem upgrade, for additional fund IF, and only IF the red is at the mojo's level of siund quality.

My set up now is:

FIIO X3ii in crystal cable to CHORD MOJO.


----------



## leaky74

pinoyman said:


> Thank you very much for that helpful input.
> Im just measuring if there is something else that would be an alternative or something that would better mojo in its price range.
> 
> You mean, for the red to be really appreciated, you needed to pair it with an amp? Did i get it right? Straight as standalone wouldnt it be good already?
> ...




It was fine unamped (the Nighthawks are easy to drive though), but adding an amp just helped add a bit of punch etc


----------



## leaky74

For what it's worth; I forgot to mention I'm using a Jitterbug between MacBook and Red -> what I would say is it's effect seems more noticeable with red than the mojo.


----------



## brent75

pinoyman said:


> can someone compare the red dragonfly vs. the mojo? im interested in it
> hoping someone will comment on it...


 
 A few pages back, several of us had that very discussion -- check it out by starting here and advancing several replies.
  
 A week later after lots of listening, I hold the same opinion that I did on day 1 when I made that post: I personally can't tell an audible/discernible difference between Red and Mojo. There might be plenty of measurements and tests that indicate a difference...and I'm sure plenty of other users say they can hear a difference...but if I'm being completely honest, I cannot.
  
 On top of that, the convenience offered by Red really puts it over the top (in my opinion). I've already had one instance with Mojo when I came back and was looking forward to listening to music, but after one song it shut down (dead batter). Never, ever having to worry about battery/charging (plus the tiny form factor) is so awesome with Red. I don't even use mine with portable -- it's for 100% laptop use. Because of that, I too am using Jitterbug and I really like the combo.
  
 Because of all this, I will be sending Mojo back and using the $400 differential for other things.


----------



## Duncan

Forgive the awful picture quality, on a bus, the other advantage of this micro setup (for me) is the pretty much perfect size match with the S7 Edge... 



Now a mission to find a USB OTG cable that is low profile and allows me to stick this to the back of the phone...


----------



## pimple

duncan said:


> Forgive the awful picture quality, on a bus, the other advantage of this micro setup (for me) is the pretty much perfect size match with the S7 Edge...
> 
> 
> 
> Now a mission to find a USB OTG cable that is low profile and allows me to stick this to the back of the phone...


 hi. Im new here and totaly newbie. Can you notice a difference if you dont use jitterbug in your set up? I have xperia z3, df red and sennheiser hd 600. Im thinking of buying jitterbug but i want to hear inputs. =)


----------



## Duncan

pimple said:


> hi. Im new here and totaly newbie. Can you notice a difference if you dont use jitterbug in your set up? I have xperia z3, df red and sennheiser hd 600. Im thinking of buying jitterbug but i want to hear inputs. =)


To be fair, portably you would be hard pushed to notice an audible (tonal) difference, maybe a tiny bit more richness - but, without DBT there is no way to verify this (with me) isn't placebo...

What it DOES do though, which is worth its weight in gold, is clear up the pops etc. that I was experiencing - that in itself is priceless)


----------



## Duncan

...Just want to make sure I haven't missed a secret handshake or something, and that the app for updates is "coming soon" for everyone (i.e. there isn't a beta app floating around anywhere?)


----------



## simonecosta75

Hello 
I have buy the red version and use whit Samsung s7 edge and streaming audio Tidal in Hi-fi Quality
At the first moment i have the prb whit low volume , but i buy the audio usb pro and now all is good
For me the final Quality in over the fiio x7 whit a1 o a5 module ( i have try both) , only i need make good eq for improve the voice 
But the sound is greath , and i ma very happy


----------



## guerph

I had the DF v1.2 and sold it a few months back. I did a bunch of comparisons and didn't think it improved things significantly enough for me to keep it. I somewhat reluctantly bought the DF Red last week, assuming I would play with it, return for refund and buy the Mojo. I have been using it for about 24 hours with my iPhone 6, using the new Apple Lightning to USB 3.0 Camera Adapter (which is great as it allows me to charge iPhone while using the DF Red), running Vox, playing a handful of 16/44, 24/48, 24/96, 24/192 FLAC files. I've also tested streaming from Apple Music. My IEMs aren't anything special...Etymotic HF5s (with custom ear molds). In a word, the DF Red is brilliant. I'll save the few hundred dollars I planned on putting toward the Mojo and put toward some better IEMs perhaps. But in all honesty, they have given new life to my HF5s. Playing lossless FLAC using Vox is where I noticed the most significant improvement, but streaming Apple Music is much improved as well. I'm not going to get into all the characteristic improvements (until I've had a bit more time to test), but I will say that the DF Red is balls out better than it should reasonably sound for 200 slices of cheddar.


----------



## defbear

I have the DFR, Mojo and ifI idsd Micro. I enjoy all three. The Mojo is smoother than the DFR and can play higher sample rates. Hands down I would take the ifi. Desktop performance in a small package.


----------



## leaky74

defbear said:


> I have the DFR, Mojo and ifI idsd Micro. I enjoy all three. The Mojo is smoother than the DFR and can play higher sample rates. Hands down I would take the ifi. Desktop performance in a small package.




Really? I'm curious to try the ifi now!


----------



## Duncan

Too big for me though, now summer is (allegedly!) on its way in the UK I need to travel light (jeans pocket)...

The price of portability, but what makes the iFi better?


----------



## waynes world

duncan said:


> Too big for me though, now summer is (allegedly!) on its way in the UK I need to travel light (jeans pocket)...
> 
> The price of portability, but what makes the iFi better?


 
  
 I'm interested as well, but mainly just for off of my laptop. Currently I'm using a ZuperDAC off of my laptop, then swapping it onto my phone when I go which is bit of a pain (yes, I like it that much). I might just get another Zuperdac, or a Dragonfly 1.2 or Red, but I should probably look at other options if I'm just going to be using the dac off of my laptop.


----------



## defbear

duncan said:


> Too big for me though, now summer is (allegedly!) on its way in the UK I need to travel light (jeans pocket)...
> 
> The price of portability, but what makes the iFi better?


Yes the ifi is too big to be portable. It's more powerful, versatile and for me has a bigger soundstage. Drives my hd800 much better. I'm about to out to the pool. With iphone6 DFR and jitterbug. Even Mojo is too big sometimes. If you don't need a phone with you get a Pono.


----------



## Devodonaldson

duncan said:


> Forgive the awful picture quality, on a bus, the other advantage of this micro setup (for me) is the pretty much perfect size match with the S7 Edge...
> 
> 
> 
> Now a mission to find a USB OTG cable that is low profile and allows me to stick this to the back of the phone...



I also pair my red with my s7 edge. Please inform what you notice with the jitterbug vs red alone. I only listen to music through my phone. I was under the impression that the jitterbug was mainly for PC/laptop use. I'm curious to know what effects are seen by its introduction with an Android device. Thx in advance


----------



## pinoyman

brent75 said:


> A few pages back, several of us had that very discussion -- check it out by starting here and advancing several replies.
> 
> A week later after lots of listening, I hold the same opinion that I did on day 1 when I made that post: I personally can't tell an audible/discernible difference between Red and Mojo. There might be plenty of measurements and tests that indicate a difference...and I'm sure plenty of other users say they can hear a difference...but if I'm being completely honest, I cannot.
> 
> ...


 

 thanks @brent75  for pointing me to that link.
 however, may i know what gear are you pairing with in your mojo and the red?
 (iem and headphone)


----------



## waynes world

pinoyman said:


> thanks @brent75  for pointing me to that link.
> however, may i know what gear are you pairing with in your mojo and the red?
> (iem and headphone)


 
  
 To brent75 the red/mojo have equal sq. For others the mojo rules. Why can't this hobby be objective lol!
  
 Having said that, for my desktop I don't really want a battery operated gizmo either.


----------



## canali

waynes world said:


> To brent75 the red/mojo have equal sq. For others the mojo rules. Why can't this hobby be objective lol!
> 
> Having said that, for my desktop I don't really want a battery operated gizmo either.


 
 and you know, the mojo just might rule..but does it rule at 3x the level to match the cost diff?
 if it did i'm sure most people would jump on that...but like you said: 'tis subjective, too
 as well as based on one's musical source, your own exposure to quality music/equipment etc.


----------



## canali

brent75 said:


> I have no idea why the iPod Touch 6 Gen would/should get knocked. For just $400 you can get 128GB storage...amazing touch screen...great form factor/UI...etc. And because of the App Store (and things like Onkyo HF Player) -- it's an insane deal. My Mojo shows up Tuesday --- I'm curious to hear how they pair.


 
 good to hear


----------



## brent75

pinoyman said:


> thanks @brent75  for pointing me to that link.
> however, may i know what gear are you pairing with in your mojo and the red?
> (iem and headphone)


 
 Source: MacBook Air
 Player: Roon
 Headphones: Hifiman HE400S (with Brainwavz pads), Audeze Sine
 IEMs: Westone W30
 Tracks: FLAC, ALAC, AAC -- anywhere from 44 to 192


----------



## brent75

waynes world said:


> To brent75 the red/mojo have equal sq. For others the mojo rules. Why can't this hobby be objective lol!
> 
> Having said that, for my desktop I don't really want a battery operated gizmo either.


 

 I honestly wonder if I have "reverse expectation bias" -- in that I'm coming in EXPECTING the Mojo to run laps around the Red because it's 3x the cost. But it's just not - not at all. Perhaps it actually is a bit better, but because I'm subconsciously expecting it to cure cancer and turn water into wine, it comes across to my ears as equal.
  
 Crazy theory? Who knows.
  
 In lieu of that, I'm guessing it's either that:
  
 1. There is no discernible difference (at least casual listening -- perhaps if I was searching for specifics I'd find it)
 2. My gear is not good enough to tell the difference
 3. My ears are not "golden" enough to tell the difference


----------



## waynes world

brent75 said:


> I honestly wonder if I have "reverse expectation bias" -- in that I'm coming in EXPECTING the Mojo to run laps around the Red because it's 3x the cost. But it's just not - not at all. Perhaps it actually is a bit better, but because I'm subconsciously expecting it to cure cancer and turn water into wine, it comes across to my ears as equal.
> 
> Crazy theory? Who knows.
> 
> ...


 
  
 It's hard to say! But what's important is that YOU listened to them BOTH, and the Red works for you. In this case it ends up saving you a bunch of $$$, so it's all good


----------



## zolom

I really enjoy my new DF Black, connected to the s7edge and feeding the shure se846 IEMs.
 Before that I truely disliked the sound quality of the s7edge and considered to replace it with the new htc 10 (although slightly inferior to the s7e).
 Now my s7e sounds better. The DFB , with a short OTG cable does not compremise mobility and it seems economical with battery consumption.
  
 Truely like the DFB.


----------



## link89

Are you getting low volume issues with your S7E?
  
 I'm looking to upgrade to something current gen from my S4 since the DAC doesn't seem to work with any app with the S4 except for USB Audio Player Pro. (no tidal, spotify, etc)


----------



## SpiderNhan

link89 said:


> Are you getting low volume issues with your S7E?
> 
> I'm looking to upgrade to something current gen from my S4 since the DAC doesn't seem to work with any app with the S4 except for USB Audio Player Pro. (no tidal, spotify, etc)



You can use Tidal through UAPP.


----------



## zolom

Do not have Tidal. Listen mostly to Spotify.
  Volume has to be pushed high but it suffice for my low impedance IEMs.
 For example UAPP volume works fine with the DFB; Poweramp and Neutron sound great.
 BTW I have the exynos s7e.
  
 For Spotify I use Bass Equalizer app, which I found to be ok (compared to Equalizer and Eizo Pro)
 I use that because I cannot root and install Viper4Android.
  
 Hope for a DFB sw Update to resolve android compatibility issues.


----------



## Devodonaldson

link89 said:


> Are you getting low volume issues with your S7E?
> 
> I'm looking to upgrade to something current gen from my S4 since the DAC doesn't seem to work with any app with the S4 except for USB Audio Player Pro. (no tidal, spotify, etc)



The issue isn't you s4, it's a problem with Android in general. The only DACs that work on all Android apps are ones without any built in volume control, for example the hifimediy Android dac, or the fiio k1. No internal volume control therefore they are at max volume once plugged in . FYI, there is a great difference in overall sound quality when dac is straight from Android, vs when through UAPP. ITS night and day. UAPP of Onkyo app with their drivers make the absolute most out of whichever DAC is plugged in


----------



## gavinfabl

If anyone is looking for a Red I'm selling mine in the for sale forums.


----------



## vilders

I wonder if the ability to update the firmware to get playback of files up to 32 bit 384 kHz, because the chipset supports


----------



## all999

Just bought RED today and when connected to a PC it has a lot of power, but when connected to Galasy S6 it lacks power. Can't even drive Nighthawks loud enough on max volume. Any tips?


----------



## SpiderNhan

all999 said:


> Just bought RED today and when connected to a PC it has a lot of power, but when connected to Galasy S6 it lacks power. Can't even drive Nighthawks loud enough on max volume. Any tips?



Use USB Audio Player Pro.


----------



## all999

spidernhan said:


> Use USB Audio Player Pro.


 
  
 I'll try that but I mainly use Tidal on my phone.


----------



## SpiderNhan

all999 said:


> I'll try that but I mainly use Tidal on my phone.



Perfect. UAPP integrates with Tidal. You're all set.


----------



## canali

spidernhan said:


> Perfect. UAPP integrates with Tidal. You're all set.


 
 will be even more interesting if Tidal integrates the MQA format, too
  
 good article by Darko below on this....so few MQA recordings...equally few daps and dacs etc
 supporting it...so it seems streaming might be a way to really bring it out the masses.
 (Darko talks of Tidal's involvement midway in article)
 http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2016/06/an-inconvenient-truth-mqa-sounds-better/
  
 ...now that would perhaps make for a significant sound diff from the competitors and make me want to 'buy up'
 from spotify extreme @ 320kps download...but then again, no doubt with spotify being
 the biggest streaming player out there they'd up their bitrate too to not lose their stronghold.


----------



## joeexp

Interesting point of view from Schitt regarding why they won't be supporting MQA!
http://schiit.com/news?m
  
 " We believe that supporting MQA means handing over the entire recording industry to an external standards organisation"!
 " We consider MQA to be yet another “format distraction” that makes high-end audio more confusing and insular."  …...


----------



## all999

spidernhan said:


> Perfect. UAPP integrates with Tidal. You're all set.


 
 Installed UAPP, what now? I don't think AudioQuest mentioned anything about extra apps for android. Shouldn't it be plug &play? It works, but with lot less power than with PC.


----------



## SpiderNhan

all999 said:


> Installed UAPP, what now? I don't think AudioQuest mentioned anything about extra apps for android. Shouldn't it be plug &play? It works, but with lot less power than with PC.


 
 In the pop-out menu, click on Hardware Volume and drag that sucker up!


----------



## all999

spidernhan said:


> In the pop-out menu, click on Hardware Volume and drag that sucker up!



Done that and Tidal is deaf now.

I've just uninstalled UAPP and double checked volume levels on DFR and S6 Edge +. Headphone uotput of S6 is about 2/3 louder than HO of DFR. This is hilarious, and I don't want to use any other apps to listenning music on my phone.


----------



## CactusPete23

I got a DFR about two weeks ago.  Enjoying Great Sound Quality on my Windows PC...  And my Android 5.0 Smartphone with UAPP.
  
 I was thinking.... If the DFR defaulted to full output when connected to Android devices, wouldn't the low volume problems for non-UAPP software be eliminated? 
  
 And I remember Steve Silberman saying that "full output is normal and volume control just reduces it".      So, to my simple mind...  I would think that it might be possible to have the DFR detect if it's volume control is beiing used, and if not, go to full power ?      Not sure IF the DFR have the smarts to do this... But think it would improve usefulness for a lot of Android folks.  (Maybe a way to manually trigger this change via a small piece of software on the phone?)
  
 Anyway, I am happy with the DFR.   But think that a small change could make it great for even Android !


----------



## canali

just downloaded the Onkyo HD player for the ipod.
 what a great little program this is. now my overly boomy xb90ex
 can be adjusted to be much more balanced, and still have good bass slam.
  
 will be interesting to see how the DF Red might further refines things.
 (picking one up tonight for 15% off from a local guy unloading his)


----------



## Duncan

all999 said:


> Done that and Tidal is deaf now.
> 
> I've just uninstalled UAPP and double checked volume levels on DFR and S6 Edge +. Headphone uotput of S6 is about 2/3 louder than HO of DFR. This is hilarious, and I don't want to use any other apps to listenning music on my phone.


There is definitely something not right there...

The Red goes substantially louder on the S7 (maximum volume on the S7 is about 2/3, maybe less - of the volume scale on the Red via UAPP)...

What version of Android is the S6 on?


----------



## all999

duncan said:


> There is definitely something not right there...
> 
> The Red goes substantially louder on the S7 (maximum volume on the S7 is about 2/3, maybe less - of the volume scale on the Red via UAPP)...
> 
> What version of Android is the S6 on?


 
  
 6.0.1
  
 The difefrences on volume level are noticed without UAPP. With UAPP there is no sound coming from Tidal at all. It may be that i've messed something in UAPP settings. I'll try to install it again, but I don't want tu use it.
  
 EDIT: Still the same, Tidal is not making a sound after installing UAPP.


----------



## west0ne

all999 said:


> 6.0.1
> 
> The difefrences on volume level are noticed without UAPP. With UAPP there is no sound coming from Tidal at all. It may be that i've messed something in UAPP settings. I'll try to install it again, but I don't want tu use it.
> 
> EDIT: Still the same, Tidal is not making a sound after installing UAPP.




Did you reboot after uninstalling UAPP? I had this issue with S5, I had to reboot after using UAPP so that the DAC was released back to the Android audio, without a reboot UAPP seemed to hold onto the DAC.


----------



## all999

west0ne said:


> Did you reboot after uninstalling UAPP? I had this issue with S5, I had to reboot after using UAPP so that the DAC was released back to the Android audio, without a reboot UAPP seemed to hold onto the DAC.


 
  
 Yes, still nothing.


----------



## SpiderNhan

all999 said:


> 6.0.1
> 
> The difefrences on volume level are noticed without UAPP. With UAPP there is no sound coming from Tidal at all. It may be that i've messed something in UAPP settings. I'll try to install it again, but I don't want tu use it.
> 
> EDIT: Still the same, Tidal is not making a sound after installing UAPP.


 
 I think I know what you're doing wrong. You have to log in to Tidal THROUGH UAPP.
  

 1. Click on the orange button to bring up your music list.
  

 2. Scroll down to where it says TIDAL.
  

 3. Log in to TIDAL through UAPP
  
 UAPP actually takes over USB audio so that music will only work through UAPP. Without UAPP, the sound will first be processed by Android through the phone's internal DAC and then sent to the Dragonfly to be processed again. UAPP gives you direct control of the Dragonfly, but ONLY through UAPP.
  
 It's a little more complicated than this but the chain is basically:
  
 Without UAPP: _Music file>Music player>*Android DAC*>OTG cable>Dragonfly>Headphones_
 With UAPP: _Music file>UAPP>OTG cable>Dragonfly>Headphones_
  
 That's why when you're not using UAPP to play music, you'll hear all the notification sounds and system sounds playing as well, while UAPP will only feed you music.


----------



## Duncan

zolom said:


> I really enjoy my new DF Black, connected to the s7edge and feeding the shure se846 IEMs.
> Before that I truely disliked the sound quality of the s7edge and considered to replace it with the new htc 10 (although slightly inferior to the s7e).
> Now my s7e sounds better. The DFB , with a short OTG cable does not compremise mobility and it seems economical with battery consumption.
> 
> Truely like the DFB.


Congrats, glad you went down this route rather than needing to spend out on a new handset 

Not enough discussion about the DFB...

For me, I wish there was a flat cabled USB OTG straight cable (that wasn't USB3), as my right angled USB OTG feels a little.. erm... vulnerable, when out on the road.


----------



## SpiderNhan

I bought this flat OTG cable but it arrived DOA so I returned it for a right angle one.


----------



## all999

spidernhan said:


> I think I know what you're doing wrong. You have to log in to Tidal THROUGH UAPP.
> 
> 
> 1. Click on the orange button to bring up your music list.
> ...


 
  
 Perfect, Thanks!


----------



## wellers73

Has anybody had luck powering LCD-2s or LCD-3s with a Dragonfly Red? Impossible?


----------



## thewatcher101

Been spending sometime with the DragonFly Black
  
 Setup: Iphone6s -> Apple Music - > DragonFly Black - > B&W P7 
  
 The B&W P7 has the characteristics of being the happy EQ that is extremely efficient to drive, they are the perfect headphones for portability; contemporary music and on the stage in your face feel.  
  
 The most noticeable difference is the bass, the dragonfly changes how the bass sound on the P7. It sounds more controlled and synced with the music. Because of its ability to control the P7 bass, it allows the mids and highs to stand out better, the overall presentation of the music in terms of staging and clarity is improved by just enough. Which is not bad considering that plugged the P7 to a MG HEAD and it didn't do anything and may have made it sound worse.
  
  
  
 Stay tune - I will update with impressions driving these with MG HEAD OTL Mark III amp with HD650 and HE400s, will give it a run with Airmotiv 5s and Genelecs 8050s.


----------



## canali

excuse my naivete guys, but a question
  
 for tidal users who have an ipod and dragonfly red
 (I have the apple adaptor):
 is there some app i have to use first, like UAPP (will it work with ios?)
 or do i have to execute some other app  with apple to get the best sound
 handshake with the dragonfly?
  
 decided to try tidal ($19.99) streaming for a free 30 day trial (again) vs the spotify extreme
 I just resigned up for.


----------



## Torq

canali said:


> excuse my naivete guys, but a question
> 
> for tidal users who have an ipod and dragonfly red:
> is there some app i have to use first, like UAPP (will it work with ios?)
> ...


 
  
 Output from an iPod to the Dragon Fly Red via the native TIDAL app is bit-perfect 16/44.1.
  
 You don't need an additional/third-party application unless you want to play high-resolution files or some format that isn't support either by the built in music player or the streaming client of your choice.  For example, if you want to play .FLAC files, you need something like Onkyo HF Player.
  
 But just to get TIDAL to talk properly to your Dragonfly Red ... all you need is the TIDAL app and the lightning-to-USB cable and you're all set.


----------



## canali

torq said:


> Output from an iPod to the Dragon Fly Red via the native TIDAL app is bit-perfect 16/44.1.
> 
> You don't need an additional/third-party application unless you want to play high-resolution files or some format that isn't support either by the built in music player or the streaming client of your choice.  For example, if you want to play .FLAC files, you need something like Onkyo HF Player.
> 
> But just to get TIDAL to talk properly to your Dragonfly Red ... all you need is the TIDAL app and the lightning-to-USB cable and you're all set.


 
  
 many thanks Torq...i appreciate it.
 would be sooooo nice if it were so similar to spotify.
  
 btw: on my lg nexus 5 i had issues of having to crank up the dragonfly red to 90 when using spotify.
 ...but good news on my ipod: no need...works just fine at normal volumes 
  
 i've read it (the DF) 'breaks in' so will run it continuously on my laptop over a few evenings.


----------



## Devodonaldson

all999 said:


> 6.0.1
> 
> The difefrences on volume level are noticed without UAPP. With UAPP there is no sound coming from Tidal at all. It may be that i've messed something in UAPP settings. I'll try to install it again, but I don't want tu use it.
> 
> EDIT: Still the same, Tidal is not making a sound after installing UAPP.



You don't install UAPP then go back to using the Tidal app.on UAPP on the play screen, reddish button on the bottom right is where you choose your music. Once you do that, press the menu area top left of screen and select Tidal. It's all done in the UAPP app.


----------



## brent75

canali said:


> many thanks Torq...i appreciate it.
> would be sooooo nice if it were so similar to spotify.
> 
> btw: on my lg nexus 5 i had issues of having to crank up the dragonfly red to 90 when using spotify.
> ...


 
 My DF Red definitely sounded better after about a day or two of burn-in ---- just leave it plugged in and playing when you're at work/sleeping/etc.
  
 I'm curious to hear your reviews of the sound, as you've definitely been watching from the sidelines and curious for several weeks now!


----------



## jmsaxon69

wellers73 said:


> Has anybody had luck powering LCD-2s or LCD-3s with a Dragonfly Red? Impossible?


 

 Tried it with my iPhone6 last night as a matter of fact, brand new 2016 version of LCD-2 and  it sounded pretty nice, dare I say even pretty darn good? I used the Onkyo app and some 24/96 and 24/88 files and it sounded great.  The Red seems to work best with a slightly darker headphone, so the SINE and the LCD-2 work very well.  The new LCD-2 is more like the sound of an LCD-3 in my opinion, more open and detailed than the prior revision, I haven't heard the new tuning on the LCD-3 yet.


----------



## canali

brent75 said:


> My DF Red definitely sounded better after about a day or two of burn-in ---- just leave it plugged in and playing when you're at work/sleeping/etc.
> 
> I'm curious to hear your reviews of the sound, as you've definitely been watching from the sidelines and curious for several weeks now!


 
 thanks...will do
  
 too bad there isn't some equalizer for Tidal,
 like the onkyo hf app i just installed yesterday for itunes.
 heck even spotify has a 5 band EQ tool
  
 i'll also ask on the tidal lossless forum and share if i hear anything back.
  
 https://support.tidal.com/hc/en-us/articles/202694601-EQ-for-TIDAL-Platforms-
EQ For TIDAL Platforms _''Adding EQ functionality within the TIDAL platforms __[size=24.57px]is something we are currently investigating to integrate into TIDAL.''[/size]_  
 I did email USB audio pro asking them...once i hear back I'll share.
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.extreamsd.usbaudioplayerpro&hl=en


----------



## canali

brent75 said:


> My DF Red definitely sounded better after about a day or two of burn-in ---- just leave it plugged in and playing when you're at work/sleeping/etc.
> 
> I'm curious to hear your reviews of the sound, as you've definitely been watching from the sidelines and curious for several weeks now!


 
  
 yup, thanks.
  
 from audioquest
 http://www.audioquest.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Phase-Noise-Jitter-Report-0317-14.pdf
  
Is it better to leave DragonFly constantly plugged in, or should I unplug it when it’s not in use?

 It is completely safe to leave DragonFly plugged in at all times. We hope that you will always want it connected to your music playback device!
 While repeatedly plugging and unplugging DragonFly will not affect its lifespan or reliability, all DACs measure and sound better after being left on for at least 24 hours. For more information on how DACs are effected by a warm-up period, please click here.


----------



## canali

also for Tidal users with IOS and wanting an EQ function
 .seems that the UAPP app doesn't work with IOS
 ...only for android...no ios version.
  
 reply from UAPP app tech support....seems only for android, no ios version.
  

```
[color=rgb(68, 68, 68)] Dear customer, Thank you for contacting us. Our app only works on Android and supports Tidal. And yes, we have a 10-band EQ. Kind regards, Davy eXtream Software Development [color=rgb(0, 104, 207)][url=http://www.extreamsd.com/]http://www.extreamsd.com[/url][/color][/color]
```
  
  
  but there is a Sennheiser EQ app out for those on IOS and using Tidal called 'captune'
  and you can get it from the apple app store for free:
 https://itunes.apple.com/ca/app/captune/id967958634?mt=8&ign-mpt=uo%3D4
  
 more info on the sennheiser captune app via google search.
  
http://en-us.sennheiser.com/captune-headphone-sound-app
  
https://www.google.ca/search?q=sennheiser+captune&oq=sennheiser+captune&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l3.4273j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
  
http://routenote.com/blog/sennheiser-launch-new-music-app-with-jay-zs-tidal/
  
 gets some getting used to, however.


----------



## brent75

Steve Guttenberg/CNET finally got around to the new DragonFly bad boys:
  
 ---
_"Comparing an original DragonFly with the DragonFly Black plugged into my Mac Mini computer and listening through NAD Viso HP50 and also Audio Technica ATH M50x over-the-ear headphones, the Black had a richer, more satisfying tonal balance, overall clarity was much improved, the original DragonFly sounded a little congested by comparison. Switching to the superb Audeze Sine on-ear headphones, the differences between the original DragonFly and DragonFly Black were even more clear-cut, and deep bass articulation and oomph were better on the Black. Stepping up to the DragonFly Red took the sound to the next level. The Sine's bass is stunning -- deep, tuneful and precise -- and the DragonFly Red lets you hear how good the Sine can be. _

_Then I put the DragonFlys aside and popped in the Apogee Groove ($295, £250, AU$459) USB converter/headphone amp, and frankly it was a letdown. The Groove was one of my favorites last year, but the Red smoked it! The Groove was nowhere as clear/transparent as the DragonFly Red with the Sines. The Red is more nimble -- you feel the music move, and rhythms are more agile with the Red, while the Groove took the energy down a peg or two."_

 ---


----------



## daros71

Hi,
 i got my DragonFly 1.5 black one week ago. I'm using it with Grado PS500E.
 Before getting the DragonFly i was running the PS500E with an FIIO E7, with the standard Realtek HD output of my Asus laptop or from my HTC One ME using Neutron. Most of the listening i did with the dragonfly 1.5 was with Mahler's symphonies directed by Pierre Boulez in Lossless flacs. http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/DG/4779528
 It's an experience to listen to this wonderful orchestral music with the Grado PS500e.
 I bought the Dragonfly 1.5 hoping to get an improvement over my previous gear. 
 Unfortunately i perceive Dragonfly output Blurry, less brilliant, less texture in lows and mids, spatially less defined as all other outputs i was used to.
 I know how relevant it is to be used to the already owned gear. However, if one decides to look for an improvement it means there is a rough idea about how it could be. I was looking for slightly more sound stage and layering.


----------



## AJTSin

Has anyone been using Black or Red with HiFiMan 500i?

Curious about picking one up for iPhone and laptop use.


----------



## jmsaxon69

ajtsin said:


> Has anyone been using Black or Red with HiFiMan 500i?
> 
> Curious about picking one up for iPhone and laptop use.




Unless you like a ton of detail and a forward signature I'd say the Black would do you well.


----------



## AJTSin

jmsaxon69 said:


> Unless you like a ton of detail and a forward signature I'd say the Black would do you well.


 

 I am not sure what I like yet this is my first pair of high end headphones... guess I will figure it out soon though.

 I picked up the RED this afternoon, been listening for about an hour or two back and forth between a laptop and iPhone. I seem to like the overall tone and sound quality.
  
 First couple negatives:
  
 - I can't turn the volume up full on either device without significant distortion is this normal? It sounds fine @ <90~ percent...
  
 - I both on iPhone and Macbook Pro (iTunes) am noticing a ton of clicks and pops like vinyl pops but with a bit of a metallic tone to them. Surely this isn't normal?


----------



## brent75

Assuming you have your Sound Preferences/Output set to your Dragonfly...and the Player Volume set to max (be it iTunes, or Roon, or Audirvana, or whatever you're using)...then the "computer key" volume shouldn't be anywhere near max --- when I play in Roon I'm at at like 30 - 40% and it's pleeeenty loud.
  
 And correct, metallic clicks and pops is definitely not right. I'm not sure what's going on -- sounds like you're 100% Apple, and these play very, very nice with Apple (it's all I have with my Red).


----------



## AJTSin

brent75 said:


> Assuming you have your Sound Preferences/Output set to your Dragonfly...and the Player Volume set to max (be it iTunes, or Roon, or Audirvana, or whatever you're using)...then the "computer key" volume shouldn't be anywhere near max --- when I play in Roon I'm at at like 30 - 40% and it's pleeeenty loud.
> 
> And correct, metallic clicks and pops is definitely not right. I'm not sure what's going on -- sounds like you're 100% Apple, and these play very, very nice with Apple (it's all I have with my Red).




I have player volume max on MacBook and I have to run volume around 80% to sound "loud." That's strange. On iPhone I have to run it "one click" from full to be very loud. And "two clicks" from full to be comfortable. 

The clicks are all over the place hmm wonder if it's the usb adaptor or the dragonfly having an issue?


----------



## brent75

Must be - I've never heard of or experienced anything like that. Especially on Apple. Again, on both my Macbook Air and when I try it on my iPhone, I'm at 40% tops.
  
 Hopefully you get it figured out so can get the real flavor of the little thing.


----------



## kovacs

Received my Dragonfly Black about two weeks ago, really happy with the sound compared to the headphone amp of the iMac, can't wait to try it with my iPad ( the new headphone out on the iPad Pro 9.7 is much worse than on older generations BTW ), but I'll have to order the Apple Camera Connection kit first. I currently have 3 headphones V-Moda M80, Sennheiser HD595 and a Grado SR80, both the M80 and HD595 work fine although I do have to keep the system volume quite low. I was amazed how much better the V-Moda's sounded, I've never heard them sound this good, so even though the Dragonfly was intented to be used with my iMac only, I can't go back the to built-in port on my iPad anymore after hearing how good it can sound. I also bought a Jitterbug but need to do more testing to see if I like the sound better with or without it, but it's obvious that the Jitterbug changes the sound...
  
 The Grado SR80 on the other hand sounds terrible in combination with the Dragonfly, lots of hiss, pops and clicks, really unlistenable. Anyone know why ? I tried to connect the Dragonfly to a Jitterbug to see if this was something the jitterbug could help with, but it didn't change anything. The Grado sounds fine on my iPod touch's headphone port. Is it the low impedance of the Grado ?
  
 I'm thinking about buying a new headphone either the Sennheiser HD600 or the Hifiman HE-400S, is the Dragonfly Black powerfull enough for the HD600, is the Red powerfull enough ? Will the low impedance of the HE-400S cause problems ?


----------



## canali

Think i have to get it 'out of my system' and am going to try the mojo...this way i can finally compare the df red and my iFi rig (micro idsd, mercury cable and newest ipurifier2)....might even sell or trade my iFi rig for the one trick pony mojo....we'll see.


----------



## SpiderNhan

kovacs said:


> Received my Dragonfly Black about two weeks ago, really happy with the sound compared to the headphone amp of the iMac, can't wait to try it with my iPad ( the new headphone out on the iPad Pro 9.7 is much worse than on older generations BTW ), but I'll have to order the Apple Camera Connection kit first. I currently have 3 headphones V-Moda M80, Sennheiser HD595 and a Grado SR80, both the M80 and HD595 work fine although I do have to keep the system volume quite low. I was amazed how much better the V-Moda's sounded, I've never heard them sound this good, so even though the Dragonfly was intented to be used with my iMac only, I can't go back the built-in port on my iPad anymore after hearing how good it can sound. I also bought a Jitterbug but need to do more testing to see if I like the sound better with or without it, but it's obvious it changes the sound...
> 
> The Grado SR80 sounds terrible out of the Dragonfly, lots of pops and clicks, really unlistenable. Anyone know why ? I tried to connect the Dragonfly to a Jitterbug to see if this was something the jitterbug could help with, but it didn't change anything. The Grado sounds fine on my iPod touch's headphone port. Is is the low impedance of the Grado ? I'm think about buying a new headphone either the Sennheiser HD600 or the Hifiman HE-400S, is the Dragonfly Black powerfull enough for the HD600, is the Red powerfull enough ? Will the low impedance of the HE-400S cause problems ?



To my knowledge the M-80 is 28.5 ohms impedance while the SR80 is 32 ohms. I use my Red with the DN-2000J IEMs, which are only 8 ohms and have no issues.


----------



## pinoyman

brent75 said:


> Steve Guttenberg/CNET finally got around to the new DragonFly bad boys:
> 
> ---
> _"Comparing an original DragonFly with the DragonFly Black plugged into my Mac Mini computer and listening through NAD Viso HP50 and also Audio Technica ATH M50x over-the-ear headphones, the Black had a richer, more satisfying tonal balance, overall clarity was much improved, the original DragonFly sounded a little congested by comparison. Switching to the superb Audeze Sine on-ear headphones, the differences between the original DragonFly and DragonFly Black were even more clear-cut, and deep bass articulation and oomph were better on the Black. Stepping up to the DragonFly Red took the sound to the next level. The Sine's bass is stunning -- deep, tuneful and precise -- and the DragonFly Red lets you hear how good the Sine can be. _
> ...


 

 OMG.
 i think the red and the sine combo will be my next project. 
 maybe gotta sell the mojo and x3ii now and go with this


----------



## jmsaxon69

pinoyman said:


> OMG.
> i think the red and the sine combo will be my next project.
> maybe gotta sell the mojo and x3ii now and go with this




It really is a good match! I've been listening to it for a while now...


----------



## AJTSin

ajtsin said:


> I have player volume max on MacBook and I have to run volume around 80% to sound "loud." That's strange. On iPhone I have to run it "one click" from full to be very loud. And "two clicks" from full to be comfortable.
> 
> The clicks are all over the place hmm wonder if it's the usb adaptor or the dragonfly having an issue?


 
  


brent75 said:


> Must be - I've never heard of or experienced anything like that. Especially on Apple. Again, on both my Macbook Air and when I try it on my iPhone, I'm at 40% tops.
> 
> Hopefully you get it figured out so can get the real flavor of the little thing.


 
  
 So after some further testing the clicks and pops only seem to occur on my iPhone 6s, no issues on the new iPad Pro 9.7 or the Macbook Pro. I also tested it with my GF's iPhone 4s and there were no click and pops.  The weirdest thing is that the clicks seem to increase dramatically when the screen goes to sleep on the iPhone 6s.
  
 I do have to turn volume up to 75-85% on all these devices to really push the headphones but I am driving the HiFiMan 400i so they could just need more power than some others...
  
 EDIT: I am doing a erase and restore on the iPhone to see if that fixes the issue but it really seems to be a problem with this specific device not the Dragonfly or iOS as a whole.
  
 EDIT 2: YES! Erase and Restore seems to have fixed the clicks and pops!
  
 EDIT 3: Welp spoke too soon still there just need to get my hopes up before it cropped up again.


----------



## stuck limo

Not to beat a dead horse, but has anyone else experienced the glitching, slowing, metallic audio from their computer, either via Windows 7 or Windows 10?


----------



## daros71

kovacs said:


> Received my Dragonfly Black about two weeks ago, really happy with the sound compared to the headphone amp of the iMac, can't wait to try it with my iPad ( the new headphone out on the iPad Pro 9.7 is much worse than on older generations BTW ), but I'll have to order the Apple Camera Connection kit first. I currently have 3 headphones V-Moda M80, Sennheiser HD595 and a Grado SR80, both the M80 and HD595 work fine although I do have to keep the system volume quite low. I was amazed how much better the V-Moda's sounded, I've never heard them sound this good, so even though the Dragonfly was intented to be used with my iMac only, I can't go back the to built-in port on my iPad anymore after hearing how good it can sound. I also bought a Jitterbug but need to do more testing to see if I like the sound better with or without it, but it's obvious that the Jitterbug changes the sound...
> 
> The Grado SR80 on the other hand sounds terrible in combination with the Dragonfly, lots of hiss, pops and clicks, really unlistenable. Anyone know why ? I tried to connect the Dragonfly to a Jitterbug to see if this was something the jitterbug could help with, but it didn't change anything. The Grado sounds fine on my iPod touch's headphone port. Is it the low impedance of the Grado ?
> 
> I'm think about buying a new headphone either the Sennheiser HD600 or the Hifiman HE-400S, is the Dragonfly Black powerfull enough for the HD600, is the Red powerfull enough ? Will the low impedance of the HE-400S cause problems ?


 
 Similar problem for me. My Grado PS500e sounds clean and detailed using FIIO E7 but blurry and confused with Dragonfly 1.5 black. Any idea why?


----------



## brent75

kovacs said:


> Received my Dragonfly Black about two weeks ago, really happy with the sound compared to the headphone amp of the iMac, can't wait to try it with my iPad ( the new headphone out on the iPad Pro 9.7 is much worse than on older generations BTW ), but I'll have to order the Apple Camera Connection kit first. I currently have 3 headphones V-Moda M80, Sennheiser HD595 and a Grado SR80, both the M80 and HD595 work fine although I do have to keep the system volume quite low. I was amazed how much better the V-Moda's sounded, I've never heard them sound this good, so even though the Dragonfly was intented to be used with my iMac only, I can't go back the to built-in port on my iPad anymore after hearing how good it can sound. I also bought a Jitterbug but need to do more testing to see if I like the sound better with or without it, but it's obvious that the Jitterbug changes the sound...
> 
> The Grado SR80 on the other hand sounds terrible in combination with the Dragonfly, lots of hiss, pops and clicks, really unlistenable. Anyone know why ? I tried to connect the Dragonfly to a Jitterbug to see if this was something the jitterbug could help with, but it didn't change anything. The Grado sounds fine on my iPod touch's headphone port. Is it the low impedance of the Grado ?
> 
> I'm thinking about buying a new headphone either the Sennheiser HD600 or the Hifiman HE-400S, is the Dragonfly Black powerfull enough for the HD600, is the Red powerfull enough ? Will the low impedance of the HE-400S cause problems ?


 
  
 I use the Red + 400S combo and it sounds amazing. Check out my post from a little over 3 weeks ago: Rooooooaaaaarrrrr


----------



## AJTSin

ajtsin said:


> So after some further testing the clicks and pops only seem to occur on my iPhone 6s, no issues on the new iPad Pro 9.7 or the Macbook Pro. I also tested it with my GF's iPhone 4s and there were no click and pops.  The weirdest thing is that the clicks seem to increase dramatically when the screen goes to sleep on the iPhone 6s.
> 
> I do have to turn volume up to 75-85% on all these devices to really push the headphones but I am driving the HiFiMan 400i so they could just need more power than some others...
> 
> ...


 
  
 I have found some apple threads that seem to replicate the same problem with other DACs and Car Audio setups using USB on a 6s when the screen locks. I have tried now on several iPads and iPhones 5, 5s, 6... none experience this static click and pop issue except for my 6s.
 So my question is:
 Does anyone following this thread use the Red or Black with a 6s iPhone specifically? Does it work for you?
  
 I am trying to rule out if its iPhone hardware issue or an issue with the 6s model as a whole.
  
 In other news the Red paired with HifiMan 400i sounds incredible from my laptop and Ipad. In fact if it didn't sound so amazing the intricate clicks and pops from the iPhone 6s wouldn't be such a big deal but I can hear them in incredible fidelity lol.

 Thanks!


----------



## Torq

ajtsin said:


> I have found some apple threads that seem to replicate the same problem with other DACs and Car Audio setups using USB on a 6s when the screen locks. I have tried now on several iPads and iPhones 5, 5s, 6... none experience this static click and pop issue except for my 6s. Probably is no one is around that has an iPhone 6S.
> 
> So my question is:
> Does anyone following this thread use the Red or Black with a 6s iPhone specifically? Does it work for you?
> ...


 
  
 I use the Red with an iPhone 6S and have no weird clicks, pops or static.  That's on the latest version of iOS.  Doesn't matter if the unit it locked, unlocked, transitioning between lock states, it just works cleanly and smoothly.


----------



## AJTSin

torq said:


> I use the Red with an iPhone 6S and have no weird clicks, pops or static.  That's on the latest version of iOS.  Doesn't matter if the unit it locked, unlocked, transitioning between lock states, it just works cleanly and smoothly.


 
 Thank-you for confirming. Interesting. So either my dragonfly has issues or my iPhone has issues...


----------



## Torq

ajtsin said:


> Thank-you for confirming. Interesting. So either my dragonfly has issues or my iPhone has issues...


 
  
 I'm assuming you've used the same CCK cable for each test?
  
 What carrier are you on - or more specifically were all the phones you tried with on the same carrier as you?  That _shouldn't _make a difference, but there _are _differences in the frequencies they use (even geographically with the same carrier) and that might have a bearing on things.


----------



## brent75

torq said:


> I'm assuming you've used the same CCK cable for each test?
> 
> What carrier are you on - or more specifically were all the phones you tried with on the same carrier as you?  That _shouldn't _make a difference, but there _are _differences in the frequencies they use (even geographically with the same carrier) and that might have a bearing on things.


 
 Interesting. Maybe he should try it in Airplane Mode to see if the clicks and pops are still there?
  
 Also, potentially try different players (native Music, but also either Onkyo HF Player or Korg's iAudioGate).


----------



## drykoke

Now into my 4th week with the DF Red.
  
 Works wonderfully with Sennheiser HD 600 on all these devices/computers:
  
 1. Xiaomi Mi 4S Android 5.1.1 with Spotify (but have to put volume up to about 80-90%)
 2. Ipad Air 1, with very cheap Chinese CCK cable from Ebay UK, but only if Ipad is on level surface and cable does not get kinked. Plenty loud at volume 50%.
 3. Windows 7 laptop
 4. Windows 10 desktop
  
 Anyone who is having problems with IOS, I suggest checking your cable first.
  
 The sound quality is consistently excellent, irrespective of device. However, not all my headphones show the tremendous jump in sound quality; there are a couple where I am not convinced that the headphone gels perfectly with DF Red.
  
 I agree with the CNET reviewer and the What Hifi review that just came out today.
 http://www.whathifi.com/audioquest/dragonfly-red/review


----------



## AJTSin

torq said:


> I'm assuming you've used the same CCK cable for each test?
> 
> What carrier are you on - or more specifically were all the phones you tried with on the same carrier as you?  That _shouldn't _make a difference, but there _are _differences in the frequencies they use (even geographically with the same carrier) and that might have a bearing on things.


 
 Yes I have the apple Camera Connector (Without Charge Port)
  
 The other 6 I tested was on same carrier. (Family plan)
 The 5s and 4s were not.
  


brent75 said:


> Interesting. Maybe he should try it in Airplane Mode to see if the clicks and pops are still there?
> 
> Also, potentially try different players (native Music, but also either Onkyo HF Player or Korg's iAudioGate).


 
  
 Airplane mode makes no difference and it happens with a few different players.
  
 Ruling out a lot of things at least.
  
 Thanks for the suggestions!

 Gonna start with exchanging the cable, though I am not sure why it would work on iPad and Laptop but not iPhone...


----------



## brent75

ajtsin said:


> Gonna start with exchanging the cable, though I am not sure why it would work on iPad and Laptop but not iPhone...


 
  
 Unless there's an issue with the port on your iPhone (e.g. it's loose...something's awry...dirty inside...etc).
  
 Anyway, good luck!


----------



## 0rangutan

Do check for dirt and fluff in the Lightning port. Different symptoms, but I was getting intermittent charging failures until I investigated just how filthy the Lightning port was on my iPhone 6!


----------



## appabahn

0rangutan said:


> Do check for dirt and fluff in the Lightning port. Different symptoms, but I was getting intermittent charging failures until I investigated just how filthy the Lightning port was on my iPhone 6![/quote
> 
> Great suggestion.
> 
> ...


----------



## AJTSin

brent75 said:


> Unless there's an issue with the port on your iPhone (e.g. it's loose...something's awry...dirty inside...etc).
> 
> Anyway, good luck!


 
  


0rangutan said:


> Do check for dirt and fluff in the Lightning port. Different symptoms, but I was getting intermittent charging failures until I investigated just how filthy the Lightning port was on my iPhone 6!


 
  
 Done, I am always shocked at how much lint comes out of there... but no luck.  
 Went to best buy replaced the USB cable. No luck.
 While at best buy I tested the rig on one of their iPhone 6S setups using apple music. No issues at all. Further confirming it is something specific with my device.

 Going to try a DFU restore phone tonight and will update if anything works in case someone else runs into this insanely frustrating thing.


----------



## Kyle K

If you look at earlier posts in this thread, Steve Silberman has posted about this issue.  My 6s has the same problem. Nothing has worked so far, but the Audioquest folks responded promptly to my email, including Mr. Silberman.  The Audioquest people said that this is a known issue with the Red and some Apple devices, and Audioquest and Apple are working to get it resolved.  Like you, I tried it with my old iPhone and my 9.7" iPad Pro and they worked together beautifully.  I also tried the 6s with Apple's lightning to 30-pin adapter dongle(that has a built in DAC) going into a headphone amp and there was no noise.  It could be an IOS issue specific to the 6s since some other third-party devices seem to be affected.


----------



## Deni5

daros71 said:


> Similar problem for me. My Grado PS500e sounds clean and detailed using FIIO E7 but blurry and confused with Dragonfly 1.5 black. Any idea why?


 
  
*kovacs*: "The Grado SR80 on the other hand sounds terrible in combination with the Dragonfly, lots of hiss, pops and clicks, really unlistenable. Anyone know why ? I tried to connect the Dragonfly to a Jitterbug to see if this was something the jitterbug could help with, but it didn't change anything. The Grado sounds fine on my iPod touch's headphone port. Is it the low impedance of the Grado ?"
  
 I haven't heard Dragonfly 1.5 (have the Red) but it sounds a little strange that the Fiio E7 is more clean and detailed. I have an old Fiio E7 with the Wolfson DAC (if that is what you have?) and that is not that detailed. For me it's typical Wolfson signature: warm, treble roll-off, sub bass roll-off, nice/liquid mids. I quite like that signature when pairing with Grado headphones (or other very treble-happy phones where I need to tame the treble to be tolerable) but nothing much else. I never liked Grado headphones out of ODAC/O2 amp for example. I would say Dragonfly Red follows that signature as in being very neutral leaning a little to detailed without the glare/harshness (Sabre signature done well).
  
 From what I have read it seems like people using brighter phones are not happy with the results using the newer Dragonfly's - but that depends a lot on what you are trying to gain/what you expect. Many have found them quite good when pairing with neutral to darker headphones. You might try different pads or tape mod and such (it does change the signature - it did on my Grado's).
  
 iPhone/iPod DACs usually have a some treble roll off - that is why you might find it better paired.


----------



## Torq

In getting ready for a long-ish trip, in which I wish to travel as light as possible, I gave the Red a try with a pair of Bose QC20.
  
 Normally I'm an "anything but Bose" kind of guy.  I could easily take my Shure SE846 instead of the QC20, and the Shure's with the Red are a VERY satisfying combination.  But on a 10 hour flight the ability to shut out the noise, even if I don't want music or a movie, is very welcome ... and here the Bose' noise-cancellation beat the isolation of the SE846 AND are more comfortable for protracted use.
  
 I have to say the Red with the QC20 is actually a very listenable pairing (fed form an iPhone 6S w/ Offline TIDAL files).  Much more so than I expected ... to the point that the Shure's are staying home this trip.  I wouldn't call it "accurate" by any means, but it is FUN.


----------



## simonecosta75

Hello
 any of you have tried it or knows how does the dragonfly Red headphones with 300 ohm?
 works well ?
 thank you
 in this moment i use DFR whit S7 edge and Audiotechnica mx50 , but today i want upgrade the headphone whit a Senn hd600 and i am worried for 300 ohm of this headphone
  
 thx


----------



## WhiteNoises

simonecosta75 said:


> Hello
> 
> any of you have tried it or knows how does the dragonfly Red headphones with 300 ohm?
> 
> ...




I'm using it with both the HD600 and HD650 just fine. And my iPad itself powers both just fine too actually. With the DF Red the HD600 is too bright with voices. It pierces my ears. With the HD650, which is a slightly darker headphone, I don't have this fatigue. 

Both are excellent headphones, with acoustic and jazz music and all that I prefer the HD600, but anything with singing or harsher sounds I need to go to the HD650. For example, Dreams by Beck. Sounds great in many ways on both, but on the HD600 I just can't keep listening to it. When I play it out of the headphone jack on the iPad, the HD600 is much more endurable/bearable in that way, as it's not as strong in the treble.

Of course, this can be adjusted with an equaliser.


----------



## simonecosta75

whitenoises said:


> I'm using it with both the HD600 and HD650 just fine. And my iPad itself powers both just fine too actually. With the DF Red the HD600 is too bright with voices. It pierces my ears. With the HD650, which is a slightly darker headphone, I don't have this fatigue.
> 
> Both are excellent headphones, with acoustic and jazz music and all that I prefer the HD600, but anything with singing or harsher sounds I need to go to the HD650. For example, Dreams by Beck. Sounds great in many ways on both, but on the HD600 I just can't keep listening to it. When I play it out of the headphone jack on the iPad, the HD600 is much more endurable/bearable in that way, as it's not as strong in the treble.
> 
> Of course, this can be adjusted with an equaliser.


 
 i like the voice improved but it is more i change for hd650 o similar .
 the sound of akg 701Q is better or similar at hd600 ?


----------



## daros71

deni5 said:


> *kovacs*: "The Grado SR80 on the other hand sounds terrible in combination with the Dragonfly, lots of hiss, pops and clicks, really unlistenable. Anyone know why ? I tried to connect the Dragonfly to a Jitterbug to see if this was something the jitterbug could help with, but it didn't change anything. The Grado sounds fine on my iPod touch's headphone port. Is it the low impedance of the Grado ?"
> 
> I haven't heard Dragonfly 1.5 (have the Red) but it sounds a little strange that the Fiio E7 is more clean and detailed. I have an old Fiio E7 with the Wolfson DAC (if that is what you have?) and that is not that detailed. For me it's typical Wolfson signature: warm, treble roll-off, sub bass roll-off, nice/liquid mids. I quite like that signature when pairing with Grado headphones (or other very treble-happy phones where I need to tame the treble to be tolerable) but nothing much else. I never liked Grado headphones out of ODAC/O2 amp for example. I would say Dragonfly Red follows that signature as in being very neutral leaning a little to detailed without the glare/harshness (Sabre signature done well).
> 
> ...


 
 I compared a bit more Fiio E7, Realtek HD and Dragonfly 1.5 black after matching as good as i can the volumes... probably this low end devices are qualitatively almost the same or the difference are not noticeable to me even with a resolving headphone like the Grado PS500e. The previously mentioned blurriness was probably my brain together the expectations of improvement i had. Still, the 100 euro of the DragonFly 1.5 Black are not worth to me.


----------



## AJTSin

kyle k said:


> If you look at earlier posts in this thread, Steve Silberman has posted about this issue.  My 6s has the same problem. Nothing has worked so far, but the Audioquest folks responded promptly to my email, including Mr. Silberman.  The Audioquest people said that this is a known issue with the Red and some Apple devices, and Audioquest and Apple are working to get it resolved.  Like you, I tried it with my old iPhone and my 9.7" iPad Pro and they worked together beautifully.  I also tried the 6s with Apple's lightning to 30-pin adapter dongle(that has a built in DAC) going into a headphone amp and there was no noise.  It could be an IOS issue specific to the 6s since some other third-party devices seem to be affected.




Are you referring to the post below?



bianci1969 said:


> *DragonFly Black/Red is exhibiting pops, clicks, and intermittent distortion when connected to an iPhone/iOS device.*
> Pops and clicks from iOS devices can be attributed to one or both of the following:
> •   Defective Camera Connection Kit: We have had experiences with a few defective camera kits. Apple has been proactive in replacing any defective units. You can simply return a defective adaptor to any Apple store for an exchange. Be sure to purchase genuine Apple CCKs. There are a number of counterfeits on the market.
> 
> ...


----------



## canali

Dragonfly red up for review on uk site 'what hifi'
http://www.whathifi.com/audioquest/dragonfly-red/review
The writer also compares the red with a black.


----------



## kovacs

Just tried my Grado SR80 with the Dragonfly Black again and somehow got rid of the cracks and pops ( don't know what happened before because I tried it multiple times, with different headphones inbetween ). The Dragonfly certainly doesn't pair as well with the Grado's as it does with both the V-Moda M80 and the Sennheiser HD595. It makes the Grado's sound a bit muddy and slow, it loses some of the PRaT-factor ( Pace, Rhythm and Timing ) that I love so much with the Grado's, bass certainly is more extented though. I'm a bit surprised that the V-Moda seems to be the one that has the best synergy with the Dragonfly, doing direct A/B comparisons is a bit hard though because the V-Moda's sound louder and so much more forward than the HD595. I'm now thinking about buying a Dragonfly Red for desktop use and keep the Black for mobile use with my iPad, still need to find a better open headphone to pair with the Red because the HD595 is a bit too laid back for me and the V-Moda is not comfortable enough for longer listening sessions at home...
  
 The Dragonfly certainly has awoken the audiophile in me again, never read so many reviews and forum posts as these last two weeks... RIP my wallet


----------



## Kyle K

That's the one, although more info was received through email. You might want to contact Audioquest and provide them details of the problem, what you did to try to resolve it, and the ios version and build installed on your phone. They will forward the information to Apple.


----------



## kovacs

kyle k said:


> That's the one, although more info was received through email. You might want to contact Audioquest and provide them details of the problem, what you did to try to resolve it, and the ios version and build installed on your phone. They will forward the information to Apple.


  

 If you are referring to me, this happened with the Dragonfly connected to an iMac running OSX El Capitan via a powered USB hub, it's possible that the drivers on OSX and iOS are similar though. Occasionally I've also had a similar problem with my B&W MM-1 USB loudspeakers ( which also use a built-in DAC ) but I think this was addressed on OSX in one of the latest updates, before that I sometimes had to switch outputs or turn the speakers off and on again to get rid of the distortion... Let's hope this is something a firmware update can help with.


----------



## tekwrx

Does anybody have an LG V10? I was considering the DFB to use when out of the house. I am pretty happy with how the V10 sounds with my Sony XBA-A2 IEM, but I must use the "aux mode" trick to get it loud enough for me.  If anybody has experience with the V10 and the Black, let me know if it is worth it.   For home listening have the Sony MDR-Z7 and I know the Red would be a better choice for those cans, but I have a Fiio E12 that I use so I can just use the DFB line-out to feed that amp. I would just get the Red to use in both situations, but money is tight right now and I'm hoping the Black will be all I need. When I use the Z7 at home, I feed the E12 amp with the FiiO Q1 DAC. I like that the DFB is much smaller than the Q1.
  
 Am I being dumb? Should I just keep using what I have for now?


----------



## simonecosta75

Today is arrive from Amazon the my new headphones . I have buy the sennehiser dh600
Ok i think the dh600 need more time of,burning , but the music volume is low ..
Whit same equipe and audiotechnica mx50 i dont need put at maximum , whit dh600 at maximum is more low 
The problem is burning o 300 ohm of impedence?


----------



## kovacs

simonecosta75 said:


> Today is arrive from Amazon the my new headphones . I have buy the sennehiser dh600
> Ok i think the dh600 need more time of,burning , but the music volume is low ..
> Whit same equipe and audiotechnica mx50 i dont need put at maximum , whit dh600 at maximum is more low
> The problem is burning o 300 ohm of impedence?


 

 Do you have a Dragonfly Black or Red ? One has an output of 1.2V the other an output of 2.1V, should make quite a difference with 300 Ohm headphones like the Sennheiser HD600 I guess. Don't have either so I can't test, but I would love to hear from members that have...


----------



## simonecosta75

I have the Red 2,1 v 
I need put one amp after the DFR ? 
Or need only burning the hd600?


----------



## 0rangutan

You need to try the USB Audio Player Pro app to get proper volume from your Android device.


----------



## simonecosta75

0rangutan said:


> You need to try the USB Audio Player Pro app to get proper volume from your Android device.



I use usb audio player pro ..


----------



## brent75

I was messing around with the settings on the Roon player, and I stumbled across the following in regards to playback:
  
 ---
_Resync Delay_
_This setting is primarily used when an S/PDIF, AES, or I2S connection is involved. Oftentimes, a DAC will take a little bit of time to lock onto a new audio signal--sometimes as long as a few seconds. _
_This setting causes Roon to play a configurable duration of silence whenever it begins a new stream. Like the last setting, this one is a problem solver. If you find that the beginnings of songs are being cut off, or you're getting a lot of clicks and pops while your DAC locks on to an S/PDIF signal at the start of playback, try increasing this setting. 500ms is a good starting point. If that doesn't work, try gradually increasing it from there._
_We default this to a very small value because it produces delays in Roon's user experience. Consider that when setting it up--unless you have an uncommonly slow DAC, settings longer than 1-2 seconds are probably not necessary._
 ---
  
 I know it may not be apples to apples to some of the other clicks and pops people are experiencing, but thought I'd pass it along in case it sparks an idea on a setting you're using w/ your players (and want to know how to adjust).


----------



## rynogee

Has anyone identified a better quality USB OTG cable for use with black or red (i'm keen on one with an L shaped phone plug end, that isn't cheap ebay junk)


----------



## JoeDoe

Evening gentlemen! If any of you blokes are looking to part with your Red Dragonfly either by sale or trade, please PM yours truly!
  
 Would like to save a few bucks from the new price!


----------



## SpiderNhan

rynogee said:


> Has anyone identified a better quality USB OTG cable for use with black or red (i'm keen on one with an L shaped phone plug end, that isn't cheap ebay junk)


 
 I bought 2 of these(just in case of DOA) a few weeks ago and they just arrived today.
  
 http://www.aliexpress.com/item/10PCS-Left-Right-90-degree-Angled-Right-angled-90-degree-Micro-USB-Host-OTG-Cable-for/1033848084.html
  
 They are very robust cables. The micro-USB connectors are solid, and they work flawlessly. Surprisingly the cheap Chinese ones have an almost identical build to this longer, more expensive Amazon one.
  
 http://www.amazon.com/BobjGear-Highest-Quality-Degree-Profile/dp/B00AWL6G8W?ie=UTF8&qid=1465351478&ref_=sr_1_57&sr=8-57&srs=4652376011
  
 The USB-female end of both cables have the same depth, which isn't that deep, and leaves a half-inch gap between the body of the Dragonfly and the body of the USB connector when fully inserted. One thing of note is the BobjGear cable holds the Dragonfly very loosely. I've pulled the Dragonfly out of the BobjGear cable by trying to remove my headphones from the headphone out. On the other hand, I could probably swing the Chinese ones around like nunchakus and they wouldn't disconnect.


----------



## canali

i'm just getting in to music software mgmt for my laptop....seems to be a growing field, for sure.
 roon seem more expensve than the competition, but they say that they're  doing things differently, too.,
 ...that i'm still trying to understand its approach...and if it'd be too much or sufficient for my meagre needs:
 500 itunes....spotify and tidal for streaming
  
 Quote:


brent75 said:


> I was messing around with the settings on the Roon player, and I stumbled across the following in regards to playback:
> 
> ---
> _Resync Delay_
> ...


----------



## brent75

Canali -- hard to know for sure. Did you buy your Dragonfly brand new? If yes, there's included a voucher for a 60-day trial for Roon...and that's the best way to see if you like it.
  
 I personally don't have any major problems with the iTunes native player. But a few things prompted me to try Roon:
  

The in-depth review Darko did on it (I would link to it, but the site appears to be wonky now)
The free trial voucher (not sure if I would have tried it otherwise)
I can't say for certain, but it appears that iTunes does not support sample rates above 44? (at least my Dragonfly never changes colors on iTunes songs, whereas it does on Roon)...if that matters to you
Roon DOES support all file types, including FLAC -- it's not an enormous hassle, but you'd otherwise have to convert all your FLAC files to ALAC to live in iTunes
After listening to the same song on both, I can say that my ears feel that songs on Roon sound even better
  
 Now, will I stick with Roon after my trial ends? Hard to say. I also want to trial Audirvana+ and then make a decision.
  
 If you only have 500 songs that will live locally, I'm not sure it's worth purchasing...but you should definitely opt for the trials and see!


----------



## canali

brent75 said:


> Canali -- hard to know for sure. Did you buy your Dragonfly brand new? If yes, there's included a voucher for a 60-day trial for Roon...and that's the best way to see if you like it.
> 
> I personally don't have any major problems with the iTunes native player. But a few things prompted me to try Roon:
> 
> ...


 
  
 thanks brent75:
 yes i have that 60 day free promo...thanks will trial it.
  
 and seeing the dragonfly change its colours will be worth the price of admission 
  
 i think in a yr or so this whole field will really grow as we listen more and more through our desktop/laptop setups.
  
 this little red is a robust unit...i can only handle 8-12% max volume before it comes uncomfortable...like many i prefer
 moderate volumes to still hear detail, tap my toes and yet also be able to keep my hearing long term.
 and yes i have maxed the volume controls of both spotify and tidal or itunes accordingly to audioquest's setup instructions.
  
 btw brent75 you might like this interview with john franks of chord (yes i know it's not DF related)
 ...talks about how they developed their own chips and 
 the various models (hugo, mojo, and dave) ..and most pertinent to what we discussed on storage capacities of our rigs:
 http://www.stereolifemagazine.com/interviews/item/1165-john-franks-chord-electronics
  
 excerpt:
On the web there's been a large amount of press and people saying it's (mojo) a DAP, but you see I don't believe that DAPs have got a really long life because everyone carries a phone. Personally I like DAPs, I like the way they play, but if we apply the Moore's Law again,* the amount of memory and computing power we have in our phones now will be nothing compared to what we will have in five years time. It's going to be massive, we are going to use our phones for things we wouldn't dare try today. Like listening to hi-res music for instance. So if you have a really great DAC now, you can use your phone as a source already. I have 128 GB on my phone now, so the next one after that will probably have 512 GB or 1 TB. Combine it with the network speeds you get, and listening to hi-res music is fairly simple.*


----------



## brent75

I saw that quip in the interview you posted on the Mojo thread -- and saw that you finally bit the bullet and ordered one too. I'll be curious to hear your thoughts and comparisons once you've spent some time with it.


----------



## canali

brent75 said:


> I saw that quip in the interview you posted on the Mojo thread -- and saw that you finally bit the bullet and ordered one too. I'll be curious to hear your thoughts and comparisons once you've spent some time with it.


 
 yeah trying to find a guy in canada (my country) to buy one from.
  
 i've been told by a few mojo fans to listen to the device for at least 2 weeks solid...then go back 
 and listen to another device, to best truly appreciate it's abilities...so we'll see.
 even if it doesn't pan out the resale on it is good.
  
 i'm considering selling my iFi micro iDSD gig to fund it...or swap.
 more and more i'm seeking a nice simple setup that is good for both home and on the road
 ...and given idon't have very hard headphones to push, the mojo may be the ticket.
  
 might also keep the df red as backup...love that little gizmo....considering adding a dragontail and jitterbug to it.


----------



## indieman

Probably a long shot, but are the new dragonflys iOS compatible? I have the v1.2 but it triggers the "draws too much power" message  .


----------



## kovacs

indieman said:


> Probably a long shot, but are the new dragonflys iOS compatible? I have the v1.2 but it triggers the "draws too much power" message
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Yes these where specifically designed to work with mobile ( iOS and most Android ) devices. You won't see that message with either the Red or Black. 
  
 Check their site for info: http://www.audioquest.com/dragonfly-series/


----------



## indieman

kovacs said:


> Yes these where specifically designed to work with mobile ( iOS and most Android ) devices. You won't see that message with either the Red or Black.
> 
> Check their site for info: http://www.audioquest.com/dragonfly-series/



Wow that's great news! I was planning to pick up an xduoo x3 but I might get one of these instead. Just to be sure, the new dragonfly black is superior to the v1.2 right?


----------



## SeeSax

I shared this in the S7 thread, but thought I would post here. Couldn't be happier with my S7, DF Red, UAPP and Tidal. I added some velcro and a very slim OTG cable and this portable setup is freakin' fantastic. 
  

  

  

  
 -Collin-


----------



## zolom

Did anyone try the DF Black with the HTC10?
 Does it realy contribure to the sound against the headphone jack, using quality headphones?
  
  
  Thanks


----------



## canali

zolom said:


> Did anyone try the DF Black with the HTC10?
> Does it realy contribure to the sound against the headphone jack, using quality headphones?
> 
> 
> Thanks


 
  
 zolom: htc 10 doesn't need a dragonfly imo...it's got a dac/amp all on
 its own separate from the chip....it's quite a unique phone
 http://www.androidcentral.com/htc-10-audio-testing-boomsound-evolved
  
_excerpt below:_ but read the article above...goes into details..interesting.
  
_I was very skeptical of HTC's claims of excellent headphone audio on the HTC 10. Not only was I surprised at the results of both audio benchmarking and listening, but I found out my skepticism (as well as most everyone else with the same concerns) was unfounded._


> *The HTC 10 uses a stand-alone DAC as well as headphone amp*


 _Qualcomm's Snapdragon 820 does a lot of things right, but clear audio isn't one of those things. Something in the digital to analog converter circuit introduces an extreme amount of noise and crosstalk into the analog output, and phones like the U.S. Galaxy S7 and LG G5 sound pretty poor because of this. After doing some testing, I was presented with results that just didn't make sense from the HTC 10 — it was better than it should be, even with extra work and attention to the analog circuit that brings signal from the DAC output to the headphone jack. You can only do so much magic to a bad signal. I asked HTC how they did it, and found out that some assumptions about the HTC 10 audio hardware that the internet (and myself) has are incorrect. *The HTC 10 uses a stand-alone DAC as well as headphone amp and isn't using the Snapdragon 820 DAC.* This is pretty important, and why the HTC 10 sounds as good as it does._


> _We use a discrete DAC (not one on the SoC) in addition to the amp and have done a ton of PCB engineering to insure the best possible signal-to-noise ratio. Credit to HTC engineering, not off-the-shelf components._


----------



## SpiderNhan

zolom said:


> Did anyone try the DF Black with the HTC10?
> Does it realy contribure to the sound against the headphone jack, using quality headphones?
> 
> 
> Thanks


 
   
 From the "Best Smartphone for audiophile" thread, post 3027.
  
 Quote:


seesax said:


> My S7 + DF Red sounds better than my HTC 10 and has noticeably more volume.


----------



## zolom

Thanks. That's settles it for me. Regrets about why did I choose the s7e over the htc 10 are diminishing.


----------



## Mrblitz

rynogee said:


> Has anyone identified a better quality USB OTG cable for use with black or red (i'm keen on one with an L shaped phone plug end, that isn't cheap ebay junk)




I got this one:

http://www.lindy.co.uk/cables-adapters-c1/usb-c449/0-15m-usb-otg-cable-black-type-micro-a-90-degree-to-type-a-p7380

Cheap, convenient length and good quality.

Aren't AQ supposed to be releasing their own Dragontail OTG cable?


----------



## rynogee

Yes there is an AQ one coming, my dealer has them on backorder but hasn't seen them yet. AQ told me they're supposed to be shipping soon.


----------



## Duncan

rynogee said:


> Yes there is an AQ one coming, my dealer has them on backorder but hasn't seen them yet. AQ told me they're supposed to be shipping soon.


Strangely, called the Dragontail... confusing naming convention, considering there is already a Dragontail on the market...


----------



## Devodonaldson

seesax said:


> I shared this in the S7 thread, but thought I would post here. Couldn't be happier with my S7, DF Red, UAPP and Tidal. I added some velcro and a very slim OTG cable and this portable setup is freakin' fantastic.
> Use the same type setup. Do you ever suffer from ssues streaming Tidal flac files? What are your buffer/usb mode setting in UAPP? THX. S7EDGE, SAME OTG CABLE AND RED. Love it, just hiccups at times when streaming.
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## SeeSax

devodonaldson said:


> Use the same type setup. Do you ever suffer from ssues streaming Tidal flac files? What are your buffer/usb mode setting in UAPP? THX. S7EDGE, SAME OTG CABLE AND RED. Love it, just hiccups at times when streaming.


 
  
 I haven't experienced that yet. The only thing I changed was for the volume rockers to control the hardware volume rather than software. I haven't listened for very long, so I will see if this happens. 
  
 -Collin-


----------



## Devodonaldson

seesax said:


> I haven't experienced that yet. The only thing I changed was for the volume rockers to control the hardware volume rather than software. I haven't listened for very long, so I will see if this happens.
> 
> -Collin-



I'm often trying to stream Flac, on the go. Doesn't happen on my home network, but when I'm out on a decent network, I do experience it. Only frustrating part. Doesn't happen when streaming from a UPnP using UAPP, only streaming Tidal, unfortunately.


----------



## stuck limo

Unrelated question, but does Tidal do scrobbling to Last FM ? I would not be opposed to using UAPP + Tidal + Dragonfly + S7 ---- IF, and ONLY IF, Tidal can scrobble to Last FM so I can keep track of everything I listen to.


----------



## waynes world

stuck limo said:


> Unrelated question, but does Tidal do scrobbling to Last FM ? I would not be opposed to using UAPP + Tidal + Dragonfly + S7 ---- IF, and ONLY IF, Tidal can scrobble to Last FM so I can keep track of everything I listen to.


 
  
 I guess I'm going to have to google "scrobble" lol


----------



## estreeter

waynes world said:


> I guess I'm going to have to google "scrobble" lol


 
  
 Unless you're maintaining a profile for social networking, it's not going to be particularly enlightening. I briefly considered last.fm, but felt that my some of the extreme metal in my collection might put others on the back foot  
  
 http://www.netlingo.com/word/scrobble.php
  
 @stuck limo, I expect that you'll have more luck in the dedicated TIDAL thread, but if you're using the service via the web interface you may be in luck:
  
 https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/lastfm-scrobbler/hhinaapppaileiechjoiifaancjggfjm
  
 https://support.tidal.com/hc/en-us/articles/202162111-System-Requirements-for-HiFi-using-the-Web-Player-


----------



## waynes world

estreeter said:


> Unless you're maintaining a profile for social networking, it's not going to be particularly enlightening. I briefly considered last.fm, but felt that my some of the extreme metal in my collection might put others on the back foot
> 
> http://www.netlingo.com/word/scrobble.php


 
  
 Thanks. I'm a misanthrope, so it may be a while before I'm scrobbling


----------



## Devodonaldson

waynes world said:


> Thanks. I'm a misanthrope, so it may be a while before I'm scrobbling



Yet you're posting on a thread here amongst other human beings who also share an interest in audio gear. Careful now, you may end up scrobbling sooner than you think


----------



## stuck limo

estreeter said:


> Unless you're maintaining a profile for social networking, it's not going to be particularly enlightening. I briefly considered last.fm, but felt that my some of the extreme metal in my collection might put others on the back foot
> 
> http://www.netlingo.com/word/scrobble.php
> 
> ...


 
  
 It appears it does but apparently a year ago there were issues with it logging out of the Last FM profile or dropping halfway through the scrobbling/listening session. I was more interested in how it works through the app, since it looks like UAPP is my only option for using a Dragonfly on my S7.


----------



## Duncan

I've drawn my conclusion on the dragonfly red, and it won't be liked... 

More to come...


----------



## SeeSax

duncan said:


> I've drawn my conclusion on the dragonfly red, and it won't be liked...
> 
> More to come...


 
  
 Hopefully because it's going to convince people that they need to race out and spend $200 on one? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 I know, I'm too naive...
  
 -Collin-


----------



## Duncan

seesax said:


> Hopefully because it's going to convince people that they need to race out and spend $200 on one?
> 
> I know, I'm too naive...
> 
> -Collin-


OK, you've called me out... 

Yes, you're quite correct, this little chunk of USB goodness is quite simply stellar, it beats more expensive rivals (mentioning no names to protect the innocent) by its diminutive size, it's power, it's oh so small battery consumption, it's lack of RF issues, and finally - most importantly, it's musicality. 

This little gizmo is like a diamond in the rough. 

All isn't perfect though, for those who crave high res, obviously it doesn't go above 24/96 (not that you'd notice that particularly, it is very resolving), and the stencilling on the body, I hadn't even had mine for a week and the "Y" of dragonfly had flaked off, but I guess you cannot win them all. 

For its price, the level of detail, and the musicality it offers definitely make it a 9.5 out of 10 product in my mind. Mr Rankin, you sir, are a master of your craft!!


----------



## canali

ive just ordered a the dragontail and jitterbug, yesterday, too.
 
and when you come across gems like the df red you want to do this below...dance and tap your toes
(and no I am no justin timberlake fan...but came across it on my tidal top 100 videos
....fun video..have a watch...reminds me of michael jackson's 'black or white')...very celebratory!
and in the end isn't this what we all want from our devices/sources...to get great sound that can move us? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 
enjoy....
 

 
Quote:


----------



## zolom

I have the Black and really appriciate its sound quality with my s7e and se846 IEMs.
 A freind of mine who listened to it would like to purchase one as well. He has the s7e european as well as the se846.
 Is there a significant or noticable  sound quality difference between the Red and the Black running over the setup above?
  
 Thanks.


----------



## SeeSax

duncan said:


> OK, you've called me out...
> 
> Yes, you're quite correct, this little chunk of USB goodness is quite simply stellar, it beats more expensive rivals (mentioning no names to protect the innocent) by its diminutive size, it's power, it's oh so small battery consumption, it's lack of RF issues, and finally - most importantly, it's musicality.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I fully agree with your assessment. The crummy part for me is that this little awesome gem makes my HA-2 and E18 feel like big outdated bricks from 1974. Like, why on earth would I ever carry them around again?
  
 It's also worth noting that after a few days, I notice almost zero battery drain on the phone. Yes, it does have to get its power from the phone, but the battery life on the international S7 is so good that I haven't noticed it at all. Add to that wireless charging and quick charging, and this little combo is a real road warrior. So glad I happened upon it. 
  
 Best, 
  
 -Collin-


----------



## brent75

seesax said:


> I fully agree with your assessment. The crummy part for me is that this little awesome gem makes my HA-2 and E18 feel like big outdated bricks from 1974. Like, why on earth would I ever carry them around again?
> 
> It's also worth noting that after a few days, I notice almost zero battery drain on the phone. Yes, it does have to get its power from the phone, but the battery life on the international S7 is so good that I haven't noticed it at all. Add to that wireless charging and quick charging, and this little combo is a real road warrior. So glad I happened upon it.
> 
> ...


 
 I had the HA-2 immediately prior to the Red. HA-2 was "fine" but I kept realizing I wanted more for the price I paid.
  
  
 Then Red came out.
  
  
  
 And after a few listens I realized I actually had BETTER sound (to my ears at least -- better bass and less harsh treble)...more portability...less hassle regarding battery/charging...the ability to upgrade firmware...and all for $100 less. A month later, and I still have to pinch myself.


----------



## Duncan

I will say that imo the little DF sounds a little cold / brittle out of the box, but - give it a week, and its soul will shine through...

Be a little patient and it'll reward you


----------



## AJTSin

duncan said:


> I will say that imo the little DF sounds a little cold / brittle out of the box, but - give it a week, and its soul will shine through...
> 
> Be a little patient and it'll reward you


 

 I totally can second this. I am relatively inexperienced testing Hi-Fi equipment etc. but I have been around media gear for as long as I can remember. I was happy with the sound but it seemed to have a certain crispness when I auditioned the Red and even when I brought it home I just assumed that is how it was. After a week now of steady listening it has rounded out its edges and is brilliant.

 Love it.


----------



## brent75

I'm not sure that this descriptor makes sense to anyone else (or even is an legit way to describe it)...but I've found that once Red is "warmed up" after several days/hours/a week of playing, that it seriously comes across as this: _effortless_.
  
 It's almost like an elite athlete, who makes the game seem so easy and slow in comparison to everyone else in the game. The separation and musicality and fun all seems to come together.
  
  
 (and for the record, "effortless" is the same descriptor I found myself using when listening to Mojo)


----------



## estreeter

brent75 said:


> I'm not sure that this descriptor makes sense to anyone else (or even is an legit way to describe it)...but I've found that once Red is "warmed up" after several days/hours/a week of playing, that it seriously comes across as this: _effortless_.
> 
> It's almost like an elite athlete, who makes the game seem so easy and slow in comparison to everyone else in the game. The separation and musicality and fun all seems to come together.
> 
> ...


 
  
 And that's precisely the adjective that even the pro reviewers are usually forced to resort to when describing an exceptional component, be it analog or digital.
  
 I dont want to _add to the hype for a product I havent heard yet_ (mine is on it's way, but I live in the Australian equivalent of Fairbanks, Alaska ..). Even if the Black isnt in the same class as the Red, the existing reviews of the 1.0 and 1.2 conspired to drag my credit card from my wallet (Darko's rave reviews of the new offerings also played their part). I still have very fond memories of HRT's microStreamer and I know its not the size of the DAC that matters  
  
 Apropos of nothing I've read thus far, although AQ dont explicitly support the DF Black on Linux, I'm cautiously confident that it will 'just work' on MATE, but I'm not overly concerned if it doesnt. More in the fullness of time.


----------



## brent75

@estreeter -- You'll be happy. One of my favorite albums on the new DF Red is Devils & Dust, especially "Reno"


----------



## canali

ajtsin said:


> I totally can second this. I am relatively inexperienced testing Hi-Fi equipment etc. but I have been around media gear for as long as I can remember. I was happy with the sound but it seemed to have a certain crispness when I auditioned the Red and even when I brought it home I just assumed that is how it was. After a week now of steady listening it has rounded out its edges and is brilliant.
> 
> Love it.


 
  
 yes Audioquest even says to 'burn it in' for 24 hrs:
  
 http://www.audioquest.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Phase-Noise-Jitter-Report-0317-14.pdf
  
Is it better to leave DragonFly constantly plugged in, or should I unplug it when it’s not in use?

 It is completely safe to leave DragonFly plugged in at all times. We hope that you will always want it connected to your music playback device!
 While repeatedly plugging and unplugging DragonFly will not affect its lifespan or reliability,
_*all DACs measure and sound better after being left on for at least 24 hours*_.
 For more information on how DACs are effected by a warm-up period, please see below.
 http://www.audioquest.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Phase-Noise-Jitter-Report-0317-14.pdf
 For the purposes of providing valid measurements, a DragonFly DAC was used on a Symetricon Phase Noise Test Device. 
 The Symetricon is one of, if not the most, accurate pieces of test equipment. Tests were run at the following increments: _• Cold/“Zero Minute” (as soon as the DAC was plugged in) • 15 minutes after plug-in • 1 hour after plug-in • 24 hours after plug-in Cold — At startup, we see at 1Hz, a dBc (decibels relative to the carrier signal) of -73. However, notice the spike from 6Hz to 11Hz. There is a significant rise in phase noise within this range_. Also notice how ragged the response is from 1Hz to 100Hz. This volatility will have effects on the DAC chip’s ability to recreate an accurate waveform. Jitter is measured at 3.7pSeconds.
*15 Minutes —* Here we begin to see a slight drop in noise at 1Hz (-.8dBc), as well as a reduction of the cold-related spike (6Hz to 11Hz). Things appear as though they’re about to begin tracking nicely. Jitter is measured at 1.4pSeconds.
*1 Hour *— We begin to see the settling process occur. The measured performance takes a significant turn for the worse. At 1Hz, phase noise has risen by 11dBc. However, the good news is that the initial spike from 6 to 11Hz has not returned. But overall, we are seeing a much noisier signal. Additionally, notice that the response is more ragged than it was when tested in the 15-minute range. This will have a very negative impact on the DAC’s ability to output an accurate (and pleasant) musical signal. Jitter has risen significantly to 5.7pSeconds.
*24 Hours *— At this point and beyond, the DAC appears to have reached a stasis. Notice that the response is now very stable, that there is a smooth line from 1Hz all the way out to 1kHz. At its greatest point, the delta in phase noise has improved by 17.2dBc over the initial cold test. We can now begin to critically listen to this DAC, confident that our findings will be accurate and illuminating. Jitter is dropped and settled at an astonishingly low level of 0.85pSeconds. Audio-based jitter is most accurately measured from 1Hz to 100Hz range. This is where averaging cannot correct or hide errors as easily as it does at say 1KHz. Ironically, most published jitter measurements are given at this frequency range. How does a high level of phase noise affect our music? While it’s hard to draw a simple conclusion that will apply to all DACs, it’s absolutely clear that higher levels of phase noise create higher levels of jitter. And higher levels of jitter correlate to poor sound; the more jitter, the worse the sound. *If you’re auditioning a new DAC – whether for personal purchase, store merchandise, or critical review – be patient and give that contestant a day to warm up, so that it can truly strut its stuff.*


----------



## SpiderNhan

From the update notes of USB Audio Player Pro version 2.6.5/2.6.6

"The app now also functions as UPnP media renderer: you can select UAPP as renderer in UPnP control apps like BubbleUPnP and enjoy the interface of the other app while still enjoying the audio quality of UAPP! It also allows UAPP to be remote controlled and use services like Qobuz and Google Music when used in combination with BubbleUPnP."

Edit:
-Played around with BubbleUPnP using UAPP as renderer and Google Play Music as my cloud. Works perfectly!
-The best way to use volume control is to put Android native volume to full and then set your desired level through the BubbleUPnP app which goes from 0-100 volume steps. You can also open UAPP and use the software volume slider to fine tune, but I don't find it necessary.
-With the screen off, the volume control will default to Android's native 15 steps and depending on how high your volume is set the volume between each step will be quite dramatic. Best to set your volume while in app.
-Interface is a little clunky, but easy to figure out.


----------



## mofu

estreeter said:


> [...]
> Apropos of nothing I've read thus far, although AQ dont explicitly support the DF Black on Linux, I'm cautiously confident that it will 'just work' on MATE, but I'm not overly concerned if it doesnt. More in the fullness of time.


 
  
 Running the Red on Arch Linux without a problem. The Dragonfly DACs are USB audio class compliant. Therefore all Linux distributions will support, atleast if the kernel isn't very old.


----------



## SpiderNhan

Using BubbleUPnP to play through UAPP still doesn't get enough volume for harder to drive headphones. I have to put my V-MODA M-100 to 85%-90% volume for adequate listening levels and the AKG Q701 at 100% volume at, what I consider, a moderate to slightly high, depending on recording, listening level. Sounds incredible though!


----------



## Duncan

I must admit that I don't know how the standard Android USB implementation works, for the first time yesterday my S7E allowed playback through the standard stack, and as others have said earlier in the thread, the volume was very sub-par. 

Surprised that UAPP and BubbleUPnP seems to revert to that, as UAPP and Tidal has no such issue.


----------



## defbear

With UAPP, I had volume issues until I tapped the upper right hand corner 3 dots and chose Hardware Volume and raised it.


----------



## SpiderNhan

defbear said:


> With UAPP, I had volume issues until I tapped the upper right hand corner 3 dots and chose Hardware Volume and raised it.



BubbleUPnP, while interfacing with UAPP, still operates through native Android audio protocols. The Hardware Volume slider is not available in UAPP when it is acting as a local renderer for BubbleUPnP. I checked the volume levels using Google Play Music both naked and wearing Bubbles and max volume levels were the same.

The only advantage is you get access to 100 volume steps instead of 15.


----------



## defbear

spidernhan said:


> BubbleUPnP, while interfacing with UAPP, still operates through native Android audio protocols. The Hardware Volume slider is not available in UAPP when it is acting as a local renderer for BubbleUPnP. I checked the volume levels using Google Play Music bothnaked and wearing Bubbles and max volume levels were the same.
> 
> The only advantage is you get access to 100 volume steps instead of 15.


 
 Welp, check that one off the list


----------



## zachchen1996

Anyone try the dragonfly red with the campfire audio Andromeda?


----------



## Mrblitz

spidernhan said:


> BubbleUPnP, while interfacing with UAPP, still operates through native Android audio protocols. The Hardware Volume slider is not available in UAPP when it is acting as a local renderer for BubbleUPnP. I checked the volume levels using Google Play Music both naked and wearing Bubbles and max volume levels were the same.
> 
> The only advantage is you get access to 100 volume steps instead of 15.




Excuse my ignorance as I'm still getting to grips with all this. I want to stream FLACs from Google Drive but are you saying that even with the new UAPP update enabling UPnP rendering, the Android audio system will still be "interfering" with and upsampling these files (rather than being bypassed as it would be purely using UAPP with locally stored files?)


----------



## lombardox

mrblitz said:


> Excuse my ignorance as I'm still getting to grips with all this. I want to stream FLACs from Google Drive but are you saying that even with the new UAPP update enabling UPnP rendering, the Android audio system will still be "interfering" with and upsampling these files (rather than being bypassed as it would be purely using UAPP with locally stored files?)




No, UAPP bypasses android and uses its own USB driver. This is the same when it is acting as a upnp renderer. For this latest functionality what is happening is this: bubbleupnp developers have integrated their app with lots of streaming services/cloud file stores. This is no small task and they've done a great job. So when you access a file from Google Drive via bubbleupnp you are taking advantage of that work. If you then use the bubbleupnp 'local renderer' to play the file you are using the android system and USB drivers and will get the upsampling that you mention. If you choose a different renderer what happens is that bubbleupnp sets up a proxy web server and sends the url of the file to the renderer that you have chosen. So bubbleupnp is downloading your file from Google Drive for you and then making it available on other devices via its own proxy server. The latest release of UAPP allows you to use it as a UPnp renderer. All this means is that when you select the UAPPRenderer in bubbleupnp, a message is sent to the UAPP app saying 'play the file at this url'. The actual playback in UAPP is the same as for any other file such as files you might be storing locally on your device. All the UAPP settings including hardware volume will equally apply to files being played via UPnp.

 I've been using it on my phone with dragonfly red to access Qobuz and it sounds fantastic and as loud as you could want.

I've also had a play with using bubbleupnp on one device to control UAPP on another, where the second device has the DFR connected and is feeding an amp. Again it sounds fantastic.


----------



## Duncan

Oh, interesting! 

Can this be done the same way for let's say Deezer? Would be good to toy with that and see if I hear a quality dip over tidal, or if I can live with the compromise for using less data


----------



## Mrblitz

Wow, ok, that's a great development! Thank you for taking the time to explain how it works. I can finally enjoy all the music I have in my cloud storage through the DF red as it should be heard.


----------



## SpiderNhan

mrblitz said:


> Excuse my ignorance as I'm still getting to grips with all this. I want to stream FLACs from Google Drive but are you saying that even with the new UAPP update enabling UPnP rendering, the Android audio system will still be "interfering" with and upsampling these files (rather than being bypassed as it would be purely using UAPP with locally stored files?)


 
 I stand corrected. I only had a few minutes to play with BubbleUPnP before I had to work yesterday. lombardox is right. You get full UAPP functionality while using BubbleUPnP. I just hadn't come to grips to properly using the new software yet.
  
 The proper steps are:
  
 1) Connect Dragonfly to device
 2) Allow USB Audio Player Pro to access device
 3) Press the 3 dot menu and select "Start UPnP renderer
 4) Open BubbleUPnP
 5) Select UAPP as local renderer
 6) Enjoy newfound streaming goodness.
  
 I was missing a step there when I first started playing with it, but everything works as it should.


----------



## Mrblitz

spidernhan said:


> The proper steps are:
> 
> 1) Connect Dragonfly to device
> 2) Allow USB Audio Player Pro to access device
> ...




Thanks for covering the steps, I was still a little unclear on the order, looking forward to trying this later.


----------



## indieman

duncan said:


> I will say that imo the little DF sounds a little cold / brittle out of the box, but - give it a week, and its soul will shine through...
> 
> Be a little patient and it'll reward you




Glad to hear it's not warm sounding out of the box!

On another note, since these are iOS compatible it should work with any music apps right? Like Spotify, or even mixing apps like GarageBand?


----------



## stuck limo

spidernhan said:


> Using BubbleUPnP to play through UAPP still doesn't get enough volume for harder to drive headphones. I have to put my V-MODA M-100 to 85%-90% volume for adequate listening levels and the AKG Q701 at 100% volume at, what I consider, a moderate to slightly high, depending on recording, listening level. Sounds incredible though!


 
  
 Which version are you using? Red or Black? Thanks!


----------



## TheEldestBoy

Anyone else out there have a chance to try the Dragonfly Red with a pair of Sennheiser HD600's?
  
 Does it drive them well?


----------



## SpiderNhan

stuck limo said:


> Which version are you using? Red or Black? Thanks!



Red. However, I've discovered that I was missing a step and wasn't using BubbleUPnP properly. Once I figured out my mistake, I discovered that you can use UAPP at 100% capability with BubbleUPnP.

UAPP with Red can drive the Q701 to deafening levels. I think Hardware Volume at 70% was the limit I could tolerate.


----------



## WhiteNoises

theeldestboy said:


> Anyone else out there have a chance to try the Dragonfly Red with a pair of Sennheiser HD600's?
> 
> Does it drive them well?




Yes it drives them with ease.


----------



## TheEldestBoy

whitenoises said:


> Yes it drives them with ease.




Very good! 
In your opinion, is it a good pairing?


----------



## lombardox

spidernhan said:


> Red. However, I've discovered that I was missing a step and wasn't using BubbleUPnP properly. Once I figured out my mistake, I discovered that you can use UAPP at 100% capability with BubbleUPnP.
> 
> UAPP with Red can drive the Q701 to deafening levels. I think Hardware Volume at 70% was the limit I could tolerate.




Other than the volume level did you find the UAPP sound any different to android?


----------



## SpiderNhan

lombardox said:


> Other than the volume level did you find the UAPP sound any different to android?


 
 This is my review of UAPP on the Google Play Store:
  
 "_Sounds better than Poweramp...__ ...when feeding my DAC(V-MODA Vamp Verza). I have a Samsung Galaxy S3(AT&T) and the USB audio has always been plug and play with all my apps be it YouTube, Play Music or Poweramp. I recently installed Cyanogen Mod 12.1 based on Android Lollipop 5.1 and Samsung's native USB support disappeared. I couldn't get it working anymore so I downloaded this. USB Audio Player Pro lacks the slick interface and friendly UI of Poweramp, but I'll be damned if the music it's sending to my DAC isn't better sounding than through the stock Samsung implementation. I was dumbfounded. All this time the improvement when using the Verza seemed subtle, but now it's night and day. It doesn't have the most intuitive UI, but if you're geeky enough to strap a DAC to your phone, you'll figure it out._"


----------



## lombardox

duncan said:


> Oh, interesting!
> 
> Can this be done the same way for let's say Deezer? Would be good to toy with that and see if I hear a quality dip over tidal, or if I can live with the compromise for using less data




Don't think bubbleupnp is directly integrated with Deezer. Not sure if that's because it's not possible or just that the developers haven't got around to it. Sometimes the particular service don't want to allow it. Spotify for example are reluctant to expose their content except via their own apps and Spotify connect. Google had to make changes to the Chromecast firmware before Spotify would work with them.


----------



## Pedro Dixon

lexterminator said:


> Does anyone know how much milliwatts the Dragonfly Red could pump out at 600ohm ? I'm curious to know if it could drive the Beyer T1 to decent sound level and dynamics.


 
 At a guess, no. I use it with Senn HD25 and it's not rare for me to be using max volume, albeit with an iPhone. The HD25s are 60ohm, take from that what you will but that's my experience. The Chord Mojo on the other hand, totally different story. 
  
 The T1 deserve much more power, shame as the DAC itself isn't too far behind the Mojo. I've opted to keep both.


----------



## JoeDoe

Here we go!


----------



## WhiteNoises

theeldestboy said:


> Very good!
> In your opinion, is it a good pairing?




We all have different ears. So don't take my opinion as fact, and if you can, try this combo yourself to make a decision. 

I find it a good combination, however not great with some music. Voices are a bit too "shouty" for my opinion when I listen to HD600 with the Red. 

But I have pretty sensitive hearing towards the higher frequencies I guess. That's why I don't like the sound signature of AKG Q701, for example. And that's a headphone a lot of people like. It sounds kinda lifeless to me as well. HD600 and HD650 have a depth and emotion to them which the Q701 don't. 

I like the HD650 the most out of my headphones with my Dragonfly Red. I would still like to soften the sound a bit with a tube amplifier, which I will try when I visit my parents. My dad makes amps as a hobby.


----------



## Devodonaldson

spidernhan said:


> I stand corrected. I only had a few minutes to play with BubbleUPnP before I had to work yesterday. lombardox is right. You get full UAPP functionality while using BubbleUPnP. I just hadn't come to grips to properly using the new software yet.
> 
> The proper steps are:
> 
> ...



 I have both apps as I like to listen to my Google play music through UAPP using bubblesoft, but please help me understand what is the purpose of using UAPP as a renderer for the bubblesoft app? And the fact that you have to have to be on wifi, doesn't that make it less convenient than simply using bubblesoft as the renderer and doing everything through the UAPP app? Trying to see what the purpose is. Thx


----------



## canali

whitenoises said:


> We all have different ears. So don't take my opinion as fact, and if you can, try this combo yourself to make a decision.
> 
> I find it a good combination, however not great with some music. Voices are a bit too "shouty" for my opinion when I listen to HD600 with the Red.
> 
> ...


 
  
  am glad all on here are finding a nice sweet spot with their Red.
 fab portable device!


----------



## Deftone

i can get a dragonfly black for £80 or a ibasso d-zero mk2 for £45
  
 which would offter better SQ+Power?


----------



## SpiderNhan

devodonaldson said:


> I have both apps as I like to listen to my Google play music through UAPP using bubblesoft, but please help me understand what is the purpose of using UAPP as a renderer for the bubblesoft app? *And the fact that you have to have to be on wifi*, doesn't that make it less convenient than *simply using bubblesoft as the renderer and doing everything through the UAPP app?* Trying to see what the purpose is. Thx


 
 1) BubbleUPnP works through your cellular network as well as wifi. I just tested it streaming from Google Music.
 2) Renderer, in this case, is just another word for decoder and UAPP is the only Android app that properly interfaces with external DACs. Using BubbleUPnP as the renderer would still be flawed as any data it sends to the Dragonfly will first be filtered through Android audio processing before being sent to the Dragonfly making UAPP integration pointless.
  
 The main complaint that people have with the new Black/Red is that volume levels through stock Android USB audio routing is lacking regardless of which app they use to play audio. UAPP is the ONLY app that allows absolute control over the volume levels on the Dragonfly. Until the most recent UAPP update, Tidal was the only streaming app that had access to UAPP's features. Now with BubbleUPnP we can access music via Qobuz, Google Music, Google Drive, Google Photos, Dropbox, Box, OneDrive and Amazon Cloud Drive while still retaining all of UAPP's features. Without BubbleUPnP, UAPP can't access the music. Without UAPP, BubbleUPnP can't fully access the Dragonfly.
  
 Simply put, BubbleUPnP accesses the media wherever it is stored, sends it to UAPP, which properly handles volume control by bypassing Android's internal processing, and then sends the unadulterated data to the Dragonfly for digital-to-analog conversion.
  
 Hope this makes sense.


----------



## Devodonaldson

spidernhan said:


> 1) BubbleUPnP works through your cellular network as well as wifi. I just tested it streaming from Google Music.
> 2) Renderer, in this case, is just another word for decoder and UAPP is the only Android app that properly interfaces with external DACs. Using BubbleUPnP as the renderer would still be flawed as any data it sends to the Dragonfly will first be filtered through Android audio processing before being sent to the Dragonfly making UAPP integration pointless.
> 
> The main complaint that people have with the new Black/Red is that volume levels through stock Android USB audio routing is lacking regardless of which app they use to play audio. UAPP is the ONLY app that allows absolute control over the volume levels on the Dragonfly. Until the most recent UAPP update, Tidal was the only streaming app that had access to UAPP's features. Now with BubbleUPnP we can access music via Qobuz, Google Music, Google Drive, Google Photos, Dropbox, Box, OneDrive and Amazon Cloud Drive while still retaining all of UAPP's features. Without BubbleUPnP, UAPP can't access the music. Without UAPP, BubbleUPnP can't fully access the Dragonfly.
> ...



I get that. Where im confused is when i start uapp renderer it says you must be on wifi for other apps to see it. If thats the case, then thia is no hood say in a car, or places without wifi. When i use bubbleup as a renderer and select it through the uapp app, i have access to the hardware volume. But you're saying rgat Android is processing the data before uapp picks it up? Are you able to see uapp as a renderer when not on wifi?


----------



## SpiderNhan

devodonaldson said:


> I get that. Where im confused is when i start uapp renderer it says you must be on wifi for other apps to see it. If thats the case, then thia is no hood say in a car, or places without wifi. When i use bubbleup as a renderer and select it through the uapp app, i have access to the hardware volume. But you're saying rgat Android is processing the data before uapp picks it up? Are you able to see uapp as a renderer when not on wifi?


 
 I'm using a Galaxy S6 Active running Marshmallow 6.0.1 so maybe different phones and different builds of Android work... differently. The only way I get Hardware Volume to work is by going through the steps I outlined in an earlier posting.
  
 1) Connect Dragonfly
 2) Allow USB Audio Player Pro to access device
 3) Press the 3 dot menu and select "Start UPnP renderer"
 4) Open BubbleUPnP
 5) Select UAPP as local renderer
  
 The first time I tried BubbleUPnP I did it like this:
  
 1) Open BubbleUPnP
 2) Open UAPP
 3) Press the 3 dot menu and select "Start UPnP renderer"
 4) Select UAPP as renderer
 5) Connect Dragonfly
  
 Using the 2nd method I do not have access to Hardware Volume and audio is first routed through Android before being sent to the DAC.
  
 As for the wifi issue, I had no trouble getting Bubble and UAPP to work without a wifi connection.


----------



## JoeDoe

New owner checking in. 

Got a nice deal on a new DFR as the wife and I drive to Orlando for our first wedding anniversary. 

Running it from my iPhone 6s into my Trinity deltas. Loving the detail retrieval and low end texture this little guy provides. I had the original dragonfly a few years ago and this is a great improvement. Far less digital sounding than before. Thanks AQ!

EDIT: getting a few soft pops here and there. Using the apple cck with native music player. What gives?


----------



## Devodonaldson

Okay, i had to pay for two apps, but loving the inplementation of UAPP AND BUBBLEUPNP. Using UAPP as the renderer and Bubbleupnp as the main app, with its better layout/access and integration of Tidal and google play music or cloud storage. Awesome!


----------



## TAREKFOUAD1

Just got my DFR wow i really can compared with my Gungnir DAC, same SQ,im using it with jitter to Sony XBA-A3 and V10 and PC too. work good with onkyo player and Neutron. Very low volume with UAPP dont know why.
  
 Very power full amp very good DAC.
  
 Thank you Head-Fi


----------



## TheEldestBoy

whitenoises said:


> We all have different ears. So don't take my opinion as fact, and if you can, try this combo yourself to make a decision.
> 
> I find it a good combination, however not great with some music. Voices are a bit too "shouty" for my opinion when I listen to HD600 with the Red.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks for the reply.  I'm actually a bit sensitive to higher frequencies as well, so I'll need to keep this in mind.  
  
  
 I'm also considering the Peachtree SHIFT to pair with the HD 600's.
 Take a look:

http://www.peachtreeaudio.com/shift.html


----------



## waveSounds




----------



## WhiteNoises

theeldestboy said:


> Thanks for the reply.  I'm actually a bit sensitive to higher frequencies as well, so I'll need to keep this in mind.
> 
> 
> I'm also considering the Peachtree SHIFT to pair with the HD 600's.
> ...




It uses the Sabre DAC chip, likely the exact same one as in Dragonfly Red. They included support for higher resolutions though. But as it needs its own battery the amp must be different. Definitely more powerful, right?

Would be interesting to have someone compare the two.


----------



## SpiderNhan

tarekfouad1 said:


> Very low volume with UAPP dont know why.



Under the 3 dot menu find Hardware Volume and move the slider up.


----------



## TheEldestBoy

whitenoises said:


> It uses the Sabre DAC chip, likely the exact same one as in Dragonfly Red. They included support for higher resolutions though. But as it needs its own battery the amp must be different. Definitely more powerful, right?
> 
> Would be interesting to have someone compare the two.


 
  
 I may be wrong, but I'm assuming that the amp in the SHIFT is more powerful than the DFR.
 I know that the amp in the SHIFT is more powerful than the one in the OPPO HA-2 (specifically for driving phones that are 300 Ohms).
  
 See below...
  
  
*DAC*
  
 It looks to me like the DAC chip in the Dragonfly Red (9016) is better than the one on the Peachtree SHIFT (9010), but not as good as the one in the OPPO HA-2 (9018).
  
 How much of a difference are we actually going to hear though when comparing these 3 chips?
  
  
 --- The OPPO HA-2 uses the SABRE ES9018-K2M DAC chip
http://www.esstech.com/index.php/en/products/sabre-digital-analog-converters/audiophile-dacs/classic-sabre-8-channel-dacs/es9018/

 --- The Peachtree shift uses the SABRE ES9010-K2M DAC chip
http://www.esstech.com/index.php/en/products/sabre-digital-analog-converters/sabre-hifi-mobile-dacs/sabre-hifi-stereo-dacs/es9010k2m/

  
  
*AMP*
  
 HA-2:
  
 300 mW into 16 Ohm
 220 mW into 32 Ohm
*30 mW into 300 Ohm*
  
 SHIFT:
  
 230 mW into 16 Ohm
 136 mW into 32 Ohm
*65 mW into 300 Ohm*


----------



## 0rangutan

The chip alone doesn't dictate better sound quality - its implementation is really important.
The DFB sounds better than the HA-2 to my ears.


----------



## brent75

0rangutan said:


> The chip alone doesn't dictate better sound quality - its implementation is really important.
> The DFB sounds better than the HA-2 to my ears.


 
 +1
  
 I had the HA-2 first, and auditioned it extensively for about a month. I found it too harsh/sterile in the upper registers and lacking some bass (unless bass boost was switched on, which I wasn't a fan of doing).
  
 I moved onto the DFR and have not looked back. To me it sounds much better in the high end as well as the low end. It's like Mojo in that it doesn't have a bass boost because it doesn't need one.


----------



## TAREKFOUAD1

spidernhan said:


> Under the 3 dot menu find Hardware Volume and move the slider up.


 
 I did but... really donno whay with onkyou and Neutron the sound very loud.
 Thank you for reply.


----------



## Devodonaldson

tarekfouad1 said:


> Just got my DFR wow i really can compared with my Gungnir DAC, same SQ,im using it with jitter to Sony XBA-A3 and V10 and PC too. work good with onkyo player and Neutron. Very low volume with UAPP dont know why.
> 
> Very power full amp very good DAC.
> 
> Thank you Head-Fi



If uoure getting low volume, check both the hardware and software volume settings. It gets plenty loud on Android


----------



## TAREKFOUAD1

devodonaldson said:


> If uoure getting low volume, check both the hardware and software volume settings. It gets plenty loud on Android


 
 Booth at maximum i check that, maybe i will reinstall and i will see.  
 Thanks *Devodonaldson*


----------



## TheEldestBoy

brent75 said:


> +1
> 
> I had the HA-2 first, and auditioned it extensively for about a month. I found it too harsh/sterile in the upper registers and lacking some bass (unless bass boost was switched on, which I wasn't a fan of doing).
> 
> I moved onto the DFR and have not looked back. To me it sounds much better in the high end as well as the low end. It's like Mojo in that it doesn't have a bass boost because it doesn't need one.


 
  
  
 Very interesting; a number of people are saying that the DFR sounds better than the OPPO HA-2.
  
 Which has the more powerful AMP?  I'm wanting to pair one of these with the Sennheiser HD600s.


----------



## Devodonaldson

theeldestboy said:


> I may be wrong, but I'm assuming that the amp in the SHIFT is more powerful than the DFR.
> I know that the amp in the SHIFT is more powerful than the one in the OPPO HA-2 (specifically for driving phones that are 300 Ohms).
> If it was all qbout Dac chip, tgwn baswd on what your saying about chip quality, the black woukd be better than the red, 9018 black vs 9016 red. But apparently much more goes inti tge actual implementation. Now i wonder if 9018 is better, why wasnt it used in the red?
> 
> ...


----------



## TAREKFOUAD1

theeldestboy said:


> Very interesting; a number of people are saying that the DFR sounds better than the OPPO HA-2.


 
 I compared my DFR with my Gungnir really no different in DAC section, sound very good to me with my pc
 My Gungnir is off now.


----------



## canali

my advice..don't get caught up into the most current dac chips used debate....i even had copied an email in this thread a while back from my correspondence with gordon rankin, the genius behind the dragonfly....basically what he said was:
 you could get 20 designers in the room, all with the same pieces of tech ...and at the end each would/could
 produce something totally different sounding from one another.
  
 so the dac chip used, even if the latest and greatest, is only one part of the final product:
 ....how it's then mixed in with the rest of the recipe, is another.
  
 Quote:


theeldestboy said:


> I may be wrong, but I'm assuming that the amp in the SHIFT is more powerful than the DFR.
> I know that the amp in the SHIFT is more powerful than the one in the OPPO HA-2 (specifically for driving phones that are 300 Ohms).
> 
> See below...
> ...


----------



## Duncan

whitenoises said:


> It uses the Sabre DAC chip, likely the exact same one as in Dragonfly Red. They included support for higher resolutions though. But as it needs its own battery the amp must be different. Definitely more powerful, right?
> 
> Would be interesting to have someone compare the two.


The reason why the DF range do not go above 24/96 is so that they then do not need an external battery (or drain too much from the battery of what it is plugged in to)...

As to whether you would actually note a difference in perceived SQ goes back to the point of DAC implementation!

...Also, the DF does have plenty of power on tap (for its size) - might not be so great for 300ohm+ cans (cannot confirm one way or the other) though as there has to be a limit of what can be squeezed out of the meagre battery drain from its source


----------



## TheEldestBoy

duncan said:


> The reason why the DF range do not go above 24/96 is so that they then do not need an external battery (or drain too much from the battery of what it is plugged in to)...
> 
> As to whether you would actually note a difference in perceived SQ goes back to the point of DAC implementation!
> 
> ...Also, the DF does have plenty of power on tap (for its size) - might not be so great for 300ohm+ cans (cannot confirm one way or the other) though as there has to be a limit of what can be squeezed out of the meagre battery drain from its source


 
  
  
 A few posters on this thread say that the DFR drives the HD600's (300 Ohms) with ease.


----------



## SpiderNhan

Also, the 24/96 limitation is so the Dragonfly can function as a plug 'n play device without the need for additional drivers.


----------



## TheEldestBoy

But I'm wondering how the DFR compares in terms of the AMP?
  
  
 HA-2:
 300 mW into 16 Ohm
 220 mW into 32 Ohm
*30 mW into 300 Ohm*
  
 SHIFT:
 230 mW into 16 Ohm
 136 mW into 32 Ohm
*65 mW into 300 Ohm*
  
  
 The only spec I see for the DFR AMP is 2.1V.


----------



## CactusPete23

theeldestboy said:


> But I'm wondering how the DFR compares in terms of the AMP?
> 
> 
> HA-2:
> ...


 
 FYI Not sure how this is calculated...  (probably better to actually measure...)  But From Post # 268...  From Steve Silberman of Audioquest...
  
*" How many milliwatts do the DragonFlys output at 600ohm?*
 DragonFly Red is capable of a peak output of 2.1vac. Into *600ohms*, that’s only about *7mW*. But most *600-ohm* headphones are usually less than that and we can drive these just fine, as well as drive any receiver or integrated amplifier. "
  
 I'm sure you could ask him about 300ohm output...  He may even read this post and answer himself.


----------



## tekwrx

The DF*B* I ordered from Amazon Saturday night just arrived. Love Prime service  Only listened for a few minutes so far, but it gets plenty loud out of my LG V10 using UAPP and sounds fantastic with my IEM (Sony XBA-A2), but it is not powerful enough to get as loud as I like for my full size Sony MDR-Z7 (70Ω). I figured that would be the case and it's OK because I have a FiiO E12 I use at home to power them. Now I have 30 days to decide if I should exchange it for the DF*R* and be able to do away with the E12. We'll see...


----------



## TheEldestBoy

cactuspete23 said:


> FYI Not sure how this is calculated...  (probably better to actually measure...)  But From Post # 268...  From Steve Silberman of Audioquest...
> 
> *" How many milliwatts do the DragonFlys output at 600ohm?*
> DragonFly Red is capable of a peak output of 2.1vac. Into *600ohms*, that’s only about *7mW*. But most *600-ohm* headphones are usually less than that and we can drive these just fine, as well as drive any receiver or integrated amplifier. "
> ...


 
  
  
 Thanks for the info; I'm going to reach-out to Audioquest now with this question.  I'll let you guys know what they say.


----------



## Davy Wentzler

lombardox said:


> Don't think bubbleupnp is directly integrated with Deezer. Not sure if that's because it's not possible or just that the developers haven't got around to it. Sometimes the particular service don't want to allow it. Spotify for example are reluctant to expose their content except via their own apps and Spotify connect. Google had to make changes to the Chromecast firmware before Spotify would work with them.


 
  
 First of all, glad you guys appreciate the UPnP renderer update of UAPP!
 Regarding Deezer, we looked into it (even did some reverse engineering of the code, cough...), but the Deezer API never gives a URL as Tidal and Google Music do. It passes a certain ID to the Deezer app if I remember correctly which also decrypts the stream. So unfortunately, no chance for Deezer in UAPP I think.


----------



## waveSounds

tekwrx said:


> The DF*B* I ordered from Amazon Saturday night just arrived. Love Prime service
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Have you adjusted the 'Hardware Volume' setting within UAPP? It should be able to drive your Z7s easily.
  
 Considering returning my Black version. Most of my music is now via Tidal offline and because of Tidal's encryption of offline music I can't listen to it through UAPP and I don't want to stream when I'm out and about because I'd like to have my data allowance to last for more than a day! Tis a shame.
  
 "Dear Matt,

Thank you for contacting us. Unfortunately, offline content is encrypted and inaccessible.

Kind regards,

Davy
eXtream Software Development"


----------



## tekwrx

wavesounds said:


> Have you adjusted the 'Hardware Volume' setting within UAPP? It should be able to drive your Z7s easily.




Yeah, I've set the hardware slider to max. Sounds good, but not loud enough. I always like to have a little headroom. My V10 in high impedance mode gets louder. Also tried the DFB with my Windows pc running Foobar2000 and the volume is about the same. Like I said for home listening it's not a deal breaker because I can use the line out to feed the E12. I may just end up exchanging for the red anyway.


----------



## TAREKFOUAD1

I just reinstall the UAPP now the hardware volume work great now it can drive my HE-500 more than enough.


----------



## Pedro Dixon

waynes world said:


> To brent75 the red/mojo have equal sq. For others the mojo rules. Why can't this hobby be objective lol!
> 
> Having said that, for my desktop I don't really want a battery operated gizmo either.


 
 I have both and agree with many others. Mojo offers more realism and air compared to the Dragonfly Red. I was going to shift one but truth be told they're both so good I cannot bring myself to part with either. Hugo TT for desktop use, Mojo and Dragonfly for my frequent flying/travelling.  
  
 Nothing wrong with powering your Mojo either by mains or a battery pack. I carry both with me, should the Mojo and anker battery block lose power I throw the DFR into the chain. Again, the Mojo is better, but YMMV in whether the gains are worthy of the extra cost. Note these findings are with a pair of Senn HD25s and the differences, whilst not night and day by any means but are apparent within a few seconds. What strikes me is how different they are internally, yet sound so similar.


----------



## canali

i'm hoping to rationalize my purchases, and keep them all, using the following:
  
 -keep dragonfly red (and soon to arrive jitterbud and dragontail) for easy to use, on the go access: it's lightweight, small, and wonderfullyunobstrusive....truly portable with my ipod....also default for being lazy at my laptop..fab and fast plugin.
 great bang for the buck.
  
 -keep mojo for when i want better sound and/or when i'm not walking around...taking things in on a bench outdoors or in a cafe...or at home.
  
 -keep iFi micro iDSD as TT: laptop ->mercury cable->ipurifier 2->micro iDSDa->headphone tube amp.
 **but this last one might be tweaked...perhaps a more powerful dac to better drive my newly tweaked mapletree ear+ hd amp
  
 ...see there...justifications easily arrived at 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
  
 and to be frank: i just _have_ to try out the mojo, given all the hype around it, ie
 rob watts' 'taps' magic, his sound / neural theories applied to chip technology etc...and if i don't like it I can resell it easy enough.
  
 sorry to diverge to Chord related stuff:
 I had also inquired to Edd @ Chord about  a number of things, one of them being the chip in the mojo and my concern that their tech would be 'dated' in a yr or so, given how fast digital/audio etc is moving forward.
 his reply:
_When it comes to the chip within Mojo, it simply won't date no where near like your conventional chip DAC will. Our FPGAs from over 10 years ago are still relevant and extremely competitive. With our DACs it's not the Chip but the software and we've coded them to be timeless._
  
 guess that sort of makes sense given it's now a yr old but still more add ons for it coming out this yr.
  
 below is a fascinatating interview with Chord Electronics founder John Franks, which I hope you'll all read and enjoy as much as I have...you'll find that moving digital to analog in a very natural sounding way and with real dimensions, is no easy feat....talks about the evolution of their products...they're quite an innovative and visionary company....just as Audioquest is with Gordon Rankin and Steve Silberman with their little but robust units, the loveable Dragonflys.
  
*http://www.stereolife.eu/interviews/item/1165-john-franks-chord-electronics*

  
 excerpt:
The ultimate idea of the DAC is to reproduce the original waveform in all its complexity and perfection. The idea of the DAC is not to reproduce digital samples, which is that waveform. And if you can do that by taking as many samples as possible, faithfully reproducing all of the timing information which is locked in that signal, the strange thing about our brain is that it seems to be able to resolve information that technically our ears can't even hear. For instance, within our brain there is something like a line of neurons, that does timing between each ear. You can say it's a bit like a string of pearls. And when the timing from each of the ears hits it, it fires so that the brain knows where the sound is coming from. Apparently it's one of these fuzzy logic kind of things, but it's very accurate. And what it means is that if your brain isn't able to get the clear information of where the sound is coming from, it can't work out the positioning and timing information which makes the sound flat. People often say how wide is the soundstage but it has no depth because their DAC isn't measuring enough samples to give enough timing information to the brain.


----------



## estreeter

@canali, I had hoped that one of the big advantages of the FPGA DACs was that older models like the original Hugo would benefit from changes to the codebase implemented in later iterations (Hugo TT, Mojo etc), but after selling my Hugo last year I havent spent any time at Chord's site looking for updates.
  
 Getting back to the DF Black, mine seems to have arrived from sunny (3 deg C ..) Melbourne in record time, and I cant wait to pick it up from the smiling Aust Post staff later this morning. New toy joy is always an endorphine hit, but esp when its accompanied by something that actually resembles the term 'express delivery'


----------



## estreeter

theeldestboy said:


> But I'm wondering how the DFR compares in terms of the AMP?
> 
> 
> HA-2:
> ...


 
  
  
 I used to play those games, to the point where I had at least 3 of everything (from DAPs to large desktop lumps costing thousands of dollars). Now I just take everything on its own merits - spec sheets will only ever tell you so much, and even after 7 years on this board I still dont get why folk insist on trying to drive the most insensitive cans with tiny little portable amps. I enjoyed plugging the HD800 into the Auralic Taurus and knowing that it was performing as it should, but in all the time that I owned that combination I didnt even bother trying to plug those cans into any of my portable gear - YMMV.


----------



## canali

estreeter said:


> @canali, I had hoped that one of the big advantages of the FPGA DACs was that older models like the original Hugo would benefit from changes to the codebase implemented in later iterations (Hugo TT, Mojo etc), but after selling my Hugo last year I havent spent any time at Chord's site looking for updates.
> 
> Getting back to the DF Black, mine seems to have arrived from sunny (3 deg C ..) Melbourne in record time, and I cant wait to pick it up from the smiling Aust Post staff later this morning. New toy joy is always an endorphine hit, but esp when its accompanied by something that actually resembles the term 'express delivery'


 
 i wish you'd write to Edd (marketing) and ask him this...and share it with us....esp as per what he shared with me.


----------



## estreeter

canali said:


> i wish you'd write to Edd (marketing) and ask him this...and share it with us....esp as per what he shared with me.


 
  
 If you want answers and you're not getting them from Chord, I can recommend John Darko at Digital Audio Review. While I dont necessarily agree with his TIDAL fascination, John is a straight shooter and he seems to have a conduit to many of the big players in the DAC market, esp John Franks and Co. While I wouldnt want to have to wade through the original Hugo thread here, it's one of the few examples I've seen in this industry of a designer willing to offer a brain dump on the design process that went into a product he is clearly extremely proud of. I lost count of the number of times Rob Watts felt the need to repeat himself in that thread - it seems that many of us had a very different idea of what an FPGA DAC was. Somewhat OTT, FPGA is one design that would struggle under the proposal that all DAC designs need to be submitted to MQA Inc to receive the 'magic' firmware which would make the device MQA Ready, but that's a topic for another time and place.


----------



## Devodonaldson

tekwrx said:


> Yeah, I've set the hardware slider to max. Sounds good, but not loud enough. I always like to have a little headroom. My V10 in high impedance mode gets louder. Also tried the DFB with my Windows pc running Foobar2000 and the volume is about the same. Like I said for home listening it's not a deal breaker because I can use the line out to feed the E12. I may just end up exchanging for the red anyway.



Haven't heard the black, but sorry to hear it's not enough volume for you. I have the red, and I use it to drive my Fidelio L2, my V-moda M100, and my AKG Q701. Out of the three, the Qoo701 are by far the hardest to drive, but I can only put hardware volume at say 80% and software volume at about 70%. Any louder and it just hurts, so perhaps the red would serve you well. Not to mention, that with the red, you will also be ready once you decide to upgrade you cans to something a wee bit more power hungry


----------



## TheEldestBoy

estreeter said:


> I used to play those games, to the point where I had at least 3 of everything (from DAPs to large desktop lumps costing thousands of dollars). Now I just take everything on its own merits - spec sheets will only ever tell you so much, and even after 7 years on this board I still dont get why folk insist on trying to drive the most insensitive cans with tiny little portable amps. I enjoyed plugging the HD800 into the Auralic Taurus and knowing that it was performing as it should, but in all the time that I owned that combination I didnt even bother trying to plug those cans into any of my portable gear - YMMV.


 
  
 I live in a small townhouse with my wife and 2 children.  It's tight and I don't have space for a dedicated headphone set-up (otherwise I'd probably get a Schiit stack).
 So, I need to compromise and use a portable rig.  I need to be able to move from room to room (I never know which room is going to be available for me to have some undisturbed listening time; bedroom? living room? etc.). And of course it needs to be a quiet room as I'll be listening with the HD600's (open-back).
  
 I'm looking for the best set-up for my iPhone + HD600's.
  
 Dragonfly Red?
 Peachtree SHIFT?
 OPPO HA-2?
  
 I've ruled-out the HA-2 now, as a number of posters are saying that the DFR sounds better (especially in the higher frequencies, which I'm a bit sensitive to).
  
 Now I'm just trying to get some confirmation from Audioquest on exactly how powerful the AMP on the DFR is.  The SHIFT outputs 65mW into 300 Ohms, and I'm wondering if the DFR comes anywhere close to this.  Seeing as everyone says the 600's sound better when sufficiently amplified, I may opt for the SHIFT.
  
 I would LOVE for anyone here who has the SHIFT to chime-in, but it doesn't seem like any active posters are using it.
  
 Ideally though, the DFR would be enough, as I really do love the form factor and ease-of-use.
  
  
 Some have suggested that I pair the DFR with a pair of HiFiMan 400s, which I am sort-of considering...
  
 But I _*really*_ want the HD600's!  
 They have such a stellar reputation and are so iconic.  
 Not to mention that I may not be able to buy another set of cans for years, so I'd like for my first serious set to be what many have refereed to as the ultimate set of reference/neutral headphones.  I think they'd provide a great point-of-reference for me going forward throughout the years as I acquire more headphones.
  
 My portable rig would hopefully be enough to get me through the next few years, until I have the space (and more money) to buy something like a Schiit stack, which would then bring out even more in the HD600s.
  
  
 I should mention that my budget for DAC/AMP hovers around the $300USD mark (otherwise I'd consider something like the MOJO, etc).


----------



## JoeDoe

theeldestboy said:


> I live in a small townhouse with my wife and 2 children.  It's tight and I don't have space for a dedicated headphone set-up (otherwise I'd probably get a Schiit stack).
> So, I need to compromise and use a portable rig.  I need to be able to move from room to room (I never know which room is going to be available for me to have some undisturbed listening time; bedroom? living room? etc.). And of course it needs to be a quiet room as I'll be listening with the HD600's (open-back).
> 
> I'm looking for the best set-up for my iPhone + HD600's.
> ...




My recommendation would be to check out a pair of Grado ps500s straight from the iPhone. They are very easy to drive, sound great from the phone, and to these ears, offer a more life like sound.


----------



## oceandream1

Hello Everyone,
  
 I recently purchased the dragonfly black. I have a problem with regards to using this device with tidal. When I select the dragonfly black in the tidal interface I get the following message "use cd quality (16 bit, 44.1k) in control panel > sound options of windows. When I click on properties of dragonfly black in the control panel > sound > advanced tab. The minimum sample rate that one can choose is (24 bit, 44.1k). Due to this reason I cannot play the dragonfly through tidal. As I sidenote I think optimal sound is achieved when the computer does not upsample or downsample the audiofile. So in abillity to choose cd quality for the dragonfly could be an issue as most people will be playing cd quality music through it. Can someone help or advise, how to resolve this. Thank you.
  
 I also posted this issue to audioquest facebook page but no one cared to reply although they saw the message.


----------



## defguy

theeldestboy said:


> I live in a small townhouse with my wife and 2 children.  It's tight and I don't have space for a dedicated headphone set-up (otherwise I'd probably get a Schiit stack).
> So, I need to compromise and use a portable rig.  I need to be able to move from room to room (I never know which room is going to be available for me to have some undisturbed listening time; bedroom? living room? etc.). And of course it needs to be a quiet room as I'll be listening with the HD600's (open-back).
> 
> I'm looking for the best set-up for my iPhone + HD600's.
> ...


 
 I own an early pair of HD 600's, which may be more difficult to drive than the current ones, and, while they sound pretty good with the DFR, I would say they would still be happy with more power. If you can, see if you can try a few other options that are slightly easier to drive like the Hifi Man's for example. The DFR sounds fanatasic with cans like the Audeze Sine, Hifi Man HE 400I and probably a bunch of other ones I haven't tried. My personal experience with the HD 600's has been that they don't really deliver the magic until driven by the right amp


----------



## TheEldestBoy

defguy said:


> I own an early pair of HD 600's, which may be more difficult to drive than the current ones, and, while they sound pretty good with the DFR, I would say they would still be happy with more power. If you can, see if you can try a few other options that are slightly easier to drive like the Hifi Man's for example. The DFR sounds fanatasic with cans like the Audeze Sine, Hifi Man HE 400I and probably a bunch of other ones I haven't tried. My personal experience with the HD 600's has been that they don't really deliver the magic until driven by the right amp


 
  
  
 Thanks for the info.
  
 Would an entry-level Schiit stack (the Magni + the Modi) be better than the DFR (I'm assuming they would)?


----------



## TheEldestBoy

joedoe said:


> My recommendation would be to check out a pair of Grado ps500s straight from the iPhone. They are very easy to drive, sound great from the phone, and to these ears, offer a more life like sound.


 
  
 Thanks for the recommendation.  I'll keep the ps500s in mind.  If I end-up going with the Hifiman 400s' it'll be for the same reason (they can be driven straight from the iPhone, without an amp).


----------



## waveSounds

oceandream1 said:


> Hello Everyone,
> 
> I recently purchased the dragonfly black. I have a problem with regards to using this device with tidal. When I select the dragonfly black in the tidal interface I get the following message "use cd quality (16 bit, 44.1k) in control panel > sound options of windows. When I click on properties of dragonfly black in the control panel > sound > advanced tab. The minimum sample rate that one can choose is (24 bit, 44.1k). Due to this reason I cannot play the dragonfly through tidal. As I sidenote I think optimal sound is achieved when the computer does not upsample or downsample the audiofile. So in abillity to choose cd quality for the dragonfly could be an issue as most people will be playing cd quality music through it. Can someone help or advise, how to resolve this. Thank you.
> 
> I also posted this issue to audioquest facebook page but no one cared to reply although they saw the message.


 
  
 You can get around this by disabling exclusive mode from one of the options for the DragonFly in Tidal's settings. I had this problem, too, and this is the only work around.


----------



## canali

so far i agree....while listening to my senn hd650 cans from laptop to DF red it's a bit 'meh-ish'
 ...havent' heard it hooked up to my incoming chord mojo...nor yet to my iFI micro iDSD or mapletree headamp.
 ...so don't know if its more a 650 sound sig...i mean they sound ok...but nothing that makes me really smile.
  
 i'm going to use the DR Red for ipod and my easy to drive sony 7520s
 on those i only need to get volume to 8-12% of max before it gets really loud
 ...vs the senn 650 which require more of a 25-35% for similar volumes.
  
 Quote:


defguy said:


> *I own an early pair of HD 600's, which may be more difficult to drive than the current ones, and, while they sound pretty good with the DFR, I would say they would still be happy with more power*. If you can, see if you can try a few other options that are slightly easier to drive like the Hifi Man's for example. The DFR sounds fanatasic with cans like the Audeze Sine, Hifi Man HE 400I and probably a bunch of other ones I haven't tried. My personal experience with the HD 600's has been that they don't really deliver the magic until driven by the right amp


----------



## TheEldestBoy

canali said:


>


 
  
  
 More great info here; thanks Canali.
  
 Could you please report back and let us know how the 650s sound with the Chord Mojo, the iFI micro iDSD or mapletree headamp.  If they cans still sound "meh" on all of those, then it's likely the signature and not the AMPs.
  
 However, doesn't the fact that the DFR is able to drive the 650s to "really loud volumes" at only 25% - 35% volume mean that they are driving the cans well?


----------



## canali

theeldestboy said:


> More great info here; thanks Canali.
> 
> Could you please report back and let us know how the 650s sound with the Chord Mojo, the iFI micro iDSD or mapletree headamp.  If they cans still sound "meh" on all of those, then it's likely the signature and not the AMPs.
> 
> However, doesn't the fact that the DFR is able to drive the 650s to "really loud volumes" at only 25% - 35% volume mean that they are driving the cans well?


 
  
 yes TheEldestBoy...will do (comparing dr to mojo and ifi and mad amp)...and good you raised a valid point:
 the 'mehish' feeling i'm getting could be the senn hd650cans' sig....and 30% is loud but not outlandishly so...so take me with a grain of salt.
 i got them 'very lightly used' from ebay...so i'm burning them in all week with 100 hrs...will see how they change, if at all.
  
 then again: ...so there are many elements in the analysis to sift through before i can honestly say the sound is 'meh-ish', if i'm to be fair.
  
 1/it's also about the music source quality: how current is the stuff we're listening to (new recordings sound often much better than older ones) etc
  
 2/thing is too, i'm biased and limited in my exposure to various cans:
 currently ive been using primarily the sony 7520 closed (portable) studio monitors...their sig is supposed to be detailed, balanced but with a significant bass hump from what i've read (and I love that biased bass slam ...brings out the bassheads in me)
  
 ......so i'm getting 'used to' the senn 650s sound...it is of course more spacious and i'm enjoying that aspect but for now
 not as 'dynamic' as the closed punchier sony 7520...but that could all change as i try different combos and 'burn 'em in.


----------



## defguy

theeldestboy said:


> Thanks for the info.
> 
> Would an entry-level Schiit stack (the Magni + the Modi) be better than the DFR (I'm assuming they would)?


 
 I use the Magni with mine but that does make it less portable. I found driving the Magni with the DFR actually worked really well, better than the Cambridge Dacmagic I've been using although that combo starts to climb out of the price range you mentioned


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## waveSounds

I'm getting another issue with the Black when using it with my S7; whenever a notification or call comes in the phone emits a loud, harsh electric noise. Anyone else noticed this?


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## TheEldestBoy

defguy said:


> I use the Magni with mine but that does make it less portable. I found driving the Magni with the DFR actually worked really well, better than the Cambridge Dacmagic I've been using although that combo starts to climb out of the price range you mentioned


 
  
  
 For me, the alternative to the DFR would be the Magni/Modi stack (as both options amount to approx $200.00 USD).
  
 Would the Magni/Modi stack far outshine the DFR when it comes to driving the HD600/650's?


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## waynes world

wavesounds said:


> I'm getting another issue with the Black when using it with my S7; whenever a notification or call comes in the phone emits a loud, harsh electric noise. Anyone else noticed this?


 
  
 If you use UAPP, that might not occur (at least, it doesn't on my S5 + zuperdac).


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## oceandream1

hi this may be a workaround and thanks i will try this. however this is not optimal. because cd quality music is being up sampled by the computer, which is not ideal. i thought for a device built for optimal sound etc. dagonfly would have better options.


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## Duncan

wavesounds said:


>


v1.5? My red is only on 1.0!

Has there been a firmware update come out that I've missed?


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## waveSounds

Don't think so! Mine is unchanged from how it came out of the box.


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## Duncan

Thanks 

I wonder if other owners can add any thoughts... 

To confirm mine is 1.0, see below...


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## tekwrx

duncan said:


> Thanks
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I think that's normal. The Red is an all new product so it's a v1.0. The Black is like an update to the original Dragonfly so it went from v1.0, then 1.2, now the Black is v1.5. I don't think it has anything to do with firmware.


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## SpiderNhan

Dragonfly Black is a continuation of the original Dragonfly line since they all use the same analog volume control. 

DF 1.0
DF 1.2
DFB 1.5

Red uses a newer, supposedly superior, digital volume control. Since the Red doesn't use the older technology, it marks the beginning of a different product line.

DFR 1.0


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## Duncan

Thanks for clarifying, felt left out for a moment there


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## TheEldestBoy

cactuspete23 said:


> FYI Not sure how this is calculated...  (probably better to actually measure...)  But From Post # 268...  From Steve Silberman of Audioquest...
> 
> *" How many milliwatts do the DragonFlys output at 600ohm?*
> DragonFly Red is capable of a peak output of 2.1vac. Into *600ohms*, that’s only about *7mW*. But most *600-ohm* headphones are usually less than that and we can drive these just fine, as well as drive any receiver or integrated amplifier. "
> ...


 
  
  
 Just heard back from the folks at Audioquest.
 They say that the DFR outputs 14.7 mW into 300 Ohms.
 This is obviously less than the OPPO HA-2 (30 mW into 300 Ohms) and the Peachtree SHIFT (65 mW into 300 Ohms).
  
 Question: Is *mW into Ohms *actually an important measurement when looking at how well an amp will drive a pair of headphones? Are these the best specs to look at when comparing?  Am I barking up the right tree here, in my quest to assess which of these devices will best drive a pair of HD600s?


----------



## CactusPete23

If I remember correctly.. With Speakers, adding 3db takes 2X the power(watts) increase...  So DFR will be likely be ca. 3db lower max volume than the HA-2... 
  
 And I also remember that it takes a 10dB change for the ear to recognize as 2X the volume... So I'm guessing that DFR would sound something like 77% the perceived volume of an HA-2, Both being driven to 100% output volume.


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## 0rangutan

Are you buying the HD600's from a shop with free returns?
 If so, get the DFR and try them out together.  If it is just too quiet then return the HD600's and with the extra money you saved by buying the DFR, you could buy something better (and more efficient!) than the HD600's.


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## defguy

theeldestboy said:


> For me, the alternative to the DFR would be the Magni/Modi stack (as both options amount to approx $200.00 USD).
> 
> Would the Magni/Modi stack far outshine the DFR when it comes to driving the HD600/650's?


 
 That's a bit of a tricky question, I haven't heard the Modi but I would be inclined to think the DFR is probably a superior DAC but the 600's will come alive a bit more with the Magni. My gut feeling is that the Magni/Modi combo might be a little better with the 600's


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## TheEldestBoy

defguy said:


> That's a bit of a tricky question, I haven't heard the Modi but I would be inclined to think the DFR is probably a superior DAC but the 600's will come alive a bit more with the Magni. My gut feeling is that the Magni/Modi combo might be a little better with the 600's


 
  
 Thanks for the input defguy.


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## TheEldestBoy

0rangutan said:


> Are you buying the HD600's from a shop with free returns?
> If so, get the DFR and try them out together.  If it is just too quiet then return the HD600's and with the extra money you saved by buying the DFR, you could buy something better (and more efficient!) than the HD600's.


 
  
 Actually, I don't think that volume is going to be an issue for me.  I'm sure that the DFR would give me enough volume with the HD600s, as I'm a bit sound sensitive and will be listening at volumes that are certainly lower than what the majority of you guys listen at.
  
 Instead, I'm focusing on amplification power because I've seen numerous people say that the HD600s do better with more powerful amps.
  
 People are saying things like:
 "A more powerful amp will bring out the most in what the HD600s have to offer."  
 "The magic of the HD600s only starts to really shine with a sufficient amp."
 Etc.
  
 So, although the DFR will be loud enough for me, I'm concerned that it's not powerful enough to really bring out the best in the HD600s.  
 Whereas the Peachtree SHIFT, which is more powerful than both the DFR and the OPPO HA-2, will likely bring out more in the HD 600s.
 And the SHIFT meets my criteria of being a portable DAC/AMP combo, priced within my $300 USD budget.
 In fact, at 65 mW into 300 Ohms, I think that it just might have the most powerful AMP section (when it comes to driving 300 Ohms headphones) of all the portable DAC/AMP combos I've seen for $300 USD or less.
  
 Again though, this is all based on the idea that there seems to be a threshold (in terms of amplification power) at which the HD 600s suddenly open-up and really start to shine.  Which is the impression I get about the HD600s from all the posts that I've read on this site.
  
 And this is also based on the idea that, _listening volume being equal_, a more powerful amp will provide a more open, detailed sound compared to a less powerful amp.


----------



## estreeter

This thread accelerates a lot faster than I can keep up with 
  
 OK - can I get some idea from those with sensitive cans/IEMs* what volume setting they are using on the Windows volume control*, pls ? With volume maxed in F2K and iTunes (per the designers suggestion), I find that anything higher than 4 (!) on the volume control starts to get uncomfortably loud very quickly with 32-ohm cans. I realise that AQ needed a device that would output the 2V RMS expected of any real source into desktop speakers, but the default gain seems kinda high compared to what I'm used to from other manufacturers. Am I missing something here ?


----------



## suburbguy

I assume someone has already tried to power the Dragonfly Red with an Apple Nano.
  
 I just tried this pairing, and the Nano cannot power the Dragonfly Red.


----------



## canali

suburbguy said:


> I assume someone has already tried to power the Dragonfly Red with an Apple Nano.
> 
> I just tried this pairing, and the Nano cannot power the Dragonfly Red.


 
 that's right...it cannot...only the more recent ipod touch series i believe.


----------



## brent75

@TheEldestBoy -- how committed are you to the Sennheiser 600s? I'm not in the business of trying to talk people out of what they want, but you did mention several times that you're also considering the Hifiman HE400s. I posted about it earlier in this thread, but I too debated between the two, and went with Hifiman for several reasons. It really is an amazing pairing with the DFRed. I unfortunately can't comment on the Peachtree, nor how well any of your options would power the 600s.


----------



## Devodonaldson

duncan said:


> Thanks
> 
> I wonder if other owners can add any thoughts...
> 
> To confirm mine is 1.0, see below...



1.5 is the version of the dragonfly black. Just as the previous was version 1.2. didn't see the replies, my bad. Disregard


----------



## waveSounds

estreeter said:


> This thread accelerates a lot faster than I can keep up with
> 
> OK - can I get some idea from those with sensitive cans/IEMs *what volume setting they are using on the Windows volume control*, pls ? With volume maxed in F2K and iTunes (per the designers suggestion), I find that anything higher than 4 (!) on the volume control starts to get uncomfortably loud very quickly with 32-ohm cans. I realise that AQ needed a device that would output the 2V RMS expected of any real source into desktop speakers, but the default gain seems kinda high compared to what I'm used to from other manufacturers. Am I missing something here ?




No, that seems to be normal. With the SRH1540s (40ish ohms) I hover between 8 and sometimes 14. I reached 20 once. I won't be doing that again soon


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## suburbguy

I believe that Audio Quest has designated the new Dragonfly Black as Version 1.5.
  
 There are no Dragonfly Black versions between 1.2 and 1.5.
  
 It is also my understanding that the earlier versions of the Dragonfly Black (1.0 and 1.2) are not upgradeable via any type of firmware update. 
  
 The firmware upgrade option appears to be available for the Dragonfly Red - I am not sure about the upgradeability of the new Dragonfly Black Version 1.5.


----------



## SpiderNhan

suburbguy said:


> The firmware upgrade option appears to be available for the Dragonfly Red - I am not sure about the upgradeability of the new Dragonfly Black Version 1.5.



The Black and Red are both firmware upgradeable.


----------



## JoeDoe

theeldestboy said:


> Thanks for the recommendation.  I'll keep the ps500s in mind.  If I end-up going with the Hifiman 400s' it'll be for the same reason (they can be driven straight from the iPhone, without an amp).




Do you mean the 400i?


----------



## wondroushippo

estreeter said:


> This thread accelerates a lot faster than I can keep up with
> 
> OK - can I get some idea from those with sensitive cans/IEMs* what volume setting they are using on the Windows volume control*, pls ? With volume maxed in F2K and iTunes (per the designers suggestion), I find that anything higher than 4 (!) on the volume control starts to get uncomfortably loud very quickly with 32-ohm cans. I realise that AQ needed a device that would output the 2V RMS expected of any real source into desktop speakers, but the default gain seems kinda high compared to what I'm used to from other manufacturers. Am I missing something here ?


 
 Yeah, the default gain is really high, I'm probably around the 8 range give or take with sensitive IEMs? The ER4PT with S converter at least gives me more range and headroom.


----------



## TheEldestBoy

brent75 said:


> @TheEldestBoy -- how committed are you to the Sennheiser 600s? I'm not in the business of trying to talk people out of what they want, but you did mention several times that you're also considering the Hifiman HE400s. I posted about it earlier in this thread, but I too debated between the two, and went with Hifiman for several reasons. It really is an amazing pairing with the DFRed. I unfortunately can't comment on the Peachtree, nor how well any of your options would power the 600s.


 
  
 I'm leaning towards the HD 600s for a few reasons:
  

I have a bit of sound sensitivity, which means I can't listen at loud volumes for too long before getting fatigued; this is especially true of the higher frequencies.  As I understand it, the HD 600s have a more laid-back & relaxed sound, which _might_ be less fatiguing for me, compared to the 400s.  
From what I gather, the HD 600s are the ultimate headphone when it comes to simply giving the listener what is already there in the recording.  They don't add anything to the music, but they don't take anything away either.  They give you a true objective representation of what was recorded. This appeals to me.
The HD 600s will scale-up better than the 400s will if I decide to acquire better amps in the future (the WOO WA-6, for example).
  
 In your opinion, which of the 2 headphones has a high-end that could be considered more _forward _or _sibilant_ or _harsh_ (although I'm sure that any of these adjectives are probably too extreme for describing the high-end on either of these 2 headphones).  Comparatively speaking though, I'm wondering which of these 2 headphones will be easier to listen to on the high-end.
  
  
 HifiMan 400s + DFR + Brainwave Pads + Apple adapter chord for iPhone will cost me approx* $825 *CDN (taxes incl).
 HD 600s + Peachtree SHIFT will cost me approx $*1,125 *CDN (taxes incl).
  
 So, there's a difference there of *$300*.
  
 With the HiFiMan 400s though, I _could_ just run them with my iPhone to start and then add the DFR later (which would allow me to get the phones sooner, since I'm saving up for these purchases).


----------



## tekwrx

When I have the DFB plugged into a source, either PC or phone, I have to leave whatever headphones I have connected to it. If for instance I'm listening to my IEMs and I unplug them and plug in my full size headphones I have to "reset" the DFB by unpluging it from the USB and reinserting it. Is that normal? Same thing if I'm using it via line-out to my desktop speaker amp and I then want to listen to headphones I can't just swap the 3.5mm cable. When I swap the cable, the music shows as still playing but I get no sound. I have to remove and reinsert the USB for the music to pick back up. Just want to make sure I don't have a defective device.


----------



## CactusPete23

Hi,  I have the DFR burning in some new IEMs...  Unplugged and re-inserted and they still have same good sound and volume...  On Windows 10 Laptop PC.   
  
 Note: I am using very high efficiency IEM's...    Could be different with higher power sucking cans ?  
  
 Anyway, my experience.


----------



## CactusPete23

Forgot to mention in above, I am using Foobar2000, with WASAPI (push)..   Not sure if that matters, or if it is "best" foobar output setting for DFR.  But seems to work well for me.


----------



## tekwrx

cactuspete23 said:


> Hi,  I have the DFR burning in some new IEMs...  Unplugged and re-inserted and they still have same good sound and volume...  On Windows 10 Laptop PC.
> 
> Note: I am using very high efficiency IEM's...    Could be different with higher power sucking cans ?
> 
> Anyway, my experience.


 
 No, it still happens if I remove and reinsert the same cable. Just tried it right now. The music keeps playing, but there is no sound. I have to remove and reinsert the USB and restart the music app (PonoMusicWorld, based on Jriver. Using WASAPI). Weird


----------



## brent75

theeldestboy said:


> I'm leaning towards the HD 600s for a few reasons:
> 
> 
> I have a bit of sound sensitivity, which means I can't listen at loud volumes for too long before getting fatigued; this is especially true of the higher frequencies.  As I understand it, the HD 600s have a more laid-back & relaxed sound, which _might_ be less fatiguing for me, compared to the 400s.
> ...


 
 I personally have never heard the 600, so can't compare the two. I would love to hear it! But anything I tell you I would just be making up.
  
 Here's what Tyll said in his review of the Hifiman. Lots of comparisons to the 600 (and part of which pushed me in that direction)
  
 ---
*Sound Quality*
_Oh man! The HE400S is a fabulous sounding headphone! Right off the bat, I'll say it lacks low bass extension and is just a tad splashy sounding in the treble...but that's when I compare it with the best headphones available. Given it's price and type, I find it best to compare them head-to-head with the venerable HD 600/650. Listening side-by-side, I've got to say I prefer the HE400S over the HD 600 by a modest margin._
_We've all heard the phrase, "the Sennheiser veil" regarding the HD 600/650, and I do think there's something to the criticism. There seems to be some lack of presence in them. Not so with the HE400S. Vocals sound more coherent and "real" with the HE400S. The human voice with its chest and nasal resonance; growling sounds of the throat; and lip-smacking spittal are rendered better as a whole than the HD 600/650 to my ears, which, in comparison, sound a bit hollow and distant._
  
_The mid-range of the HD400S is simply superb...and, of course, this is where most of the music happens. While the treble can seem just slightly hazy, it's never harsh unless the music is. And while the lowest bass notes lack weight, they're tight and undistorted. The overall presentation of the HE400S is so gorgeous that the errors are easy to forgive...heck, I hardly miss them at all given the beautifully coherent presentation over most of the sonic middle ground. It's important to note, at this point, that others have found the HiFiMAN Focus pads ($39) to significantly improve bass response._
  
_While full size, open headphones are not ideal for portable use, the HE400S is so efficient that they can be driven to solid listening levels with a smartphone. Pair it up with a dedicated amp and sound quality improves nicely as the front end preceding it improves. These are a very versatile headphone, and make a great first serious purchase for budding headphone enthusiasts...in fact, they're so good they may become a staple for advanced headphone enthusiasts in general, especially as a second headphone for use at the office or when away from your primary rig._
  
_I'm loath to dethrone the HD 600 from the Wall of Fame, or claim the HE400S clearly superior...but so far, it's drawing me to that conclusion. I've only had a couple months of periodic listening sessions to to the HE400S, how in the world can I say they best the legendary Sennheisers and feel confident about the observation? The answer, I guess, is that's the way I hear it. An astonishing, unexpected, and thrilling circumstance._

 ---
  
 Per your comments, some of the feedback about the "Sennheiser veil" might make them less fatiguing for your particular ears? Impossible for me to know. Sounds like you can't go wrong either way.


----------



## waveSounds

Bah, the Black is on its way back to Amazon.
  
 I liked it but the gain is too high for use with lé computer (with my headphones) and the Meridian Ex² is just better as a desktop DAC/amp. The limited functionality with Android was the final nail in the decision-coffin.
  
 If Android sorts out its USB audio handling in the future I'll probably buy it again but until then it's back to the S7's 3.5mm.


----------



## waynes world

TheEldestBoy, you should consider the Nighthawks.


----------



## slackerpo

can anyone make a direct comparison between the *Encore mDSD *and the *DFB* and* DFR*?


----------



## zolom

tekwrx said:


> When I have the DFB plugged into a source, either PC or phone, I have to leave whatever headphones I have connected to it. If for instance I'm listening to my IEMs and I unplug them and plug in my full size headphones I have to "reset" the DFB by unpluging it from the USB and reinserting it. Is that normal? Same thing if I'm using it via line-out to my desktop speaker amp and I then want to listen to headphones I can't just swap the 3.5mm cable. When I swap the cable, the music shows as still playing but I get no sound. I have to remove and reinsert the USB for the music to pick back up. Just want to make sure I don't have a defective device.


 
 Same happens to me with my DFB  and s7e. 
 When i unplug the 3.5 connector from the DFB, while audio is playing, connect it to the s7e audio and reconnect it again to the DFB, no sound is heared, untill i re-plug the DFB agian to the USB  connector.


----------



## waveSounds

Have you checked that the 'Audio Path' isn't automatically swapping from USB device to the phone when you unplug from the Dragon and plug straight in to the phone?


----------



## estreeter

wavesounds said:


> No, that seems to be normal. With the SRH1540s (40ish ohms) I hover between 8 and sometimes 14. I reached 20 once. I won't be doing that again soon


 
  
 Appreciate the feedback from yourself and @wondroushippo - the thought of going anywhere near 20 with any of my cans evokes imagery of Gitmo and CIA-style torture. I really need to get my hands on the T50RP MKIII and see how they respond to all that sonic urge, but for now I'm happiest running the output from the DFB into my Topping NX2, an amp often criticised for a lack of oomph in the amp section. Run from the DFB, I have no such criticisms of one of the cheapest amps on the market (although I have to wonder how long that will remain the case as Fiio and AQ seem keen to encroach on their territory - exciting times when you consider that the DFB's logical competition isnt gear like the Explorer2 but Fiio's Q1 and various EBay cheapies)


----------



## spongeworthy

wavesounds said:


> Bah, the Black is on its way back to Amazon.
> 
> I liked it but the gain is too high for use with lé computer (with my headphones) and the Meridian Ex² is just better as a desktop DAC/amp. The limited functionality with Android was the final nail in the decision-coffin.
> 
> If Android sorts out its USB audio handling in the future I'll probably buy it again but until then it's back to the S7's 3.5mm.


 
  
 Was interested in getting this for my S7, what kind of issues did you run into? How much better does the dragonfly sound compared to the internal DAC of the S7? I can't imagine it being alot, the audio out of the S7 is already (imo) quite good.


----------



## Duncan

spongeworthy said:


> Was interested in getting this for my S7, what kind of issues did you run into? How much better does the dragonfly sound compared to the internal DAC of the S7? I can't imagine it being alot, the audio out of the S7 is already (imo) quite good.


you do need a partner app (UAPP) to go with the DF to bring it to life, standard USB audio provided by Android is quiet, maybe even quieter than that from the headphone Jack, but - once set up, it will show that the standard audio out of the S7 is exactly that, standard, blurred, congested, with a shrill and unbalanced top end.. 

Don't get me wrong it depends on a few factors (key one being what you're plugging into it!), but I also was genuinely happy with the S7 output until I heard the improvement on offer.


----------



## stenog

wavesounds said:


> Have you checked that the 'Audio Path' isn't automatically swapping from USB device to the phone when you unplug from the Dragon and plug straight in to the phone?



I have the same setup as you. Tidal hifi, mostly downloaded to my android phone. So if i understand this right, Dragonfly black/red is complete useless with this setup? Or is it only lack of volume?
Thanks


----------



## waveSounds

It's not completely useless; what it does mean is that if you want to listen to your downloaded music you have to use official Tidal app which doesn't support the proper USB audio drivers to make use of the DF's internal volume control.
  
 I found it noticeable to the extent that I got a louder volume without using the DF. Of cousrse, the sound quality was improved, but I didn't buy it be used as just a DAC hence why it's going back.


----------



## stenog

wavesounds said:


> It's not completely useless; what it does mean is that if you want to listen to your downloaded music you have to use official Tidal app which doesn't support the proper USB audio drivers to make use of the DF's internal volume control.
> 
> I found it noticeable to the extent that I got a louder volume without using the DF. Of cousrse, the sound quality was improved, but I didn't buy it be used as just a DAC hence why it's going back.




Thanks you very much for your answer . Yes that was my fear. I will only use it for iems but not sure its got enough volume anyway. Its a shame .


----------



## Ollie526

I got the Dragonfly 1.5 Black to use in my car to play Spotify Premium. I connect my Samsung Tablet to the Black to my head unit via AUX. In that arrangement, I noticed no sound difference at all.
  
 Then I tried with my Android (ZTE) and it didn't work. I understand some Android models don't work, and mine is apparently one of them.
  
 Lastly, I tried on my MacBook. Here I noticed the audio was much louder, but I don't think it's all that much clearer. I tried on Tidal as well and had similar results. I'm trying not to let the increased volume make me think that it sounds $99 better.
  
 I listened on mid-range headphones (AKG K99, Beats Solo and Bose SoundSport). I have Plantronics BackBeat PRO that I can try as a last option. Do I need to spend more on headphones to notice anything? 
  
 I messaged Audioquest twice on FB and they read the message and never responded, so they are no help.


----------



## estreeter

ollie526 said:


> I got the Dragonfly 1.5 Black to use in my car to play Spotify Premium. I connect my Samsung Tablet to the Black to my head unit via AUX. In that arrangement, I noticed no sound difference at all.
> 
> Then I tried with my Android (ZTE) and it didn't work. I understand some Android models don't work, and mine is apparently one of them.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Not sure how AQ can actually 'help' with a product that appears to be working correctly. I agree that the default gain is ridiculously high for 'normal phones' (32-ohm and below dynamic headphones and earphones) but I put that down to Gordon Rankin's design - he was clearly obsessed with creating a device which output 2V at 0dB (the same as a CDP or desktop DAC at line-level). I believe this was done for two reasons - to boost the output from smartphones and to give those who intend using the DFB (and DFR) with powered speakers a realistic line-level signal. If you've ever plugged a DAP - particularly an iPod - into a pair of powered speakers (think B&W MM1 and the chaff from Edifier and others), you'll realise how pathetic the end result can be even with everything maxed out. In more than one case, I found myself checking to see if the speakers actually had a power cord, or were running from a pair of 9V batteries 
  
 In short, I agree with your criticisms, but I cant see that you have any choice other than to return a product that doesnt meet your expectations. I'm using mine with a cheaper portable amp and its fine in that configuration, but I wont try to use 32-ohm cans straight from DFB's 3.5mm output. This issue has been mentioned too many times for it to be a case of production variances meaning some of us are getting 'louder' Dragonflys and I strongly suspect that AQ have created the product they were led to believe Head-Fiers wanted : an Android and iOS-friendly DAC/amp that would drive something beyond 32-ohm cans.


----------



## TheEldestBoy

waynes world said:


> @TheEldestBoy, you should consider the Nighthawks.


 
  
 Out of my price range


----------



## TheEldestBoy

brent75 said:


> I personally have never heard the 600, so can't compare the two. I would love to hear it! But anything I tell you I would just be making up.
> 
> Here's what Tyll said in his review of the Hifiman. Lots of comparisons to the 600 (and part of which pushed me in that direction)
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks for this!
  
 I've actually viewed Tyll's youtube review of the HiFiMan 400s (a few times 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





), and he really does make a compelling argument.
  
 His review of the HD 600s is great too:
  

https://youtu.be/c2Es9S9tXTY
  
  
 There are a few other interesting reviews of the HD 600 as well:
  

https://youtu.be/6-2w0vlmhk8
https://youtu.be/3AZTKCMRzHM
https://youtu.be/U_OwbT7IQLE


----------



## rynogee

How are people managing the volume with the Black when using a PC? I'm finding it a bit weird, very sensitive.
  
 I'm using Foobar on Windows 10, with shure se425, and I have to have both foobar almost at its lowest, and windows 10 system volume set on 1 (out of 100).
  
 Is this normal behavior? Doesn't seem right to me (certainly not consistent with other small USB DACs I've had like HRT and meridian) -  the volume just grows out of control really quickly and I've got almost no modulation at low volume levels.


----------



## waveSounds

Check the previous page; we've discussed the volume & Windows there, but to summarise, that's normal when using the DF. Even estreeter's post a couple above yours would have given you an answer!


----------



## rynogee

yep sorry, have been trawling back through a few posts and saw that, hard to keep up.
  
 but it doesn't seem optimal, or even slightly desirable to me. should this be interpreted that it's not a good DAC for using IEMs with? I bought it for the size and portability. I have a Mojo which doesn't have these sort of issues, but isn't as portable (I mainly use it for desktop). Got rid of my old meridian thinking this would be better for portability, maybe that was a mistake.


----------



## carterxl

I have seen some mixed comments on DFR or DFB and Grado HFs in earlier posts. That made me curious.
  
 I usually used with a Macbook pro (iTunes and songs with Apple lossless or at least 320 kBit/s as audio quality) a Meridian Explorer 2 and some Grado HFs (SR225e, SR325is, RS1e and a GH1). 
  
 So I ordered the DFR and tried to find out differences. After a week I am pretty sure that the DFR and Grado work together pretty well. There are little differences in sound between Meridian and DFR but which one is better I am not really sure. Maybe there is a little bit more detail for the Meridian. There is no bad behavior on my Grados. Maybe it is the music preferences I have, Jazz, Folk, Rock, Vocal, no Classic and not very loud. So my volume setting is usually at 30% max.  
  
 Also DFR improves the iPad sound very good. Here I see the big benefit of the DFR to carry it with you for travel and so on.
  
 So I can recommend the DFR with the Grado world in my opinion.


----------



## JoeDoe

carterxl said:


> I have seen some mixed comments on DFR or DFB and Grado HFs in earlier posts. That made me curious.
> 
> I usually used with a Macbook pro (iTunes and songs with Apple lossless or at least 320 kBit/s as audio quality) a Meridian Explorer 2 and some Grado HFs (SR225e, SR325is, RS1e and a GH1).
> 
> ...




Agreed. Haven't had a chance to use the DFR with my MacBook yet, but I have used it with the iPhone 6S, and it's caused me to sell my AK100ii, which I find redundant and cumbersome compared to just carrying my phone with basically a thumb drive!


----------



## CactusPete23

rynogee said:


> How are people managing the volume with the Black when using a PC? I'm finding it a bit weird, very sensitive.
> 
> I'm using Foobar on Windows 10, with shure se425, and I have to have both foobar almost at its lowest, and windows 10 system volume set on 1 (out of 100).
> 
> Is this normal behavior? Doesn't seem right to me (certainly not consistent with other small USB DACs I've had like HRT and meridian) -  the volume just grows out of control really quickly and I've got almost no modulation at low volume levels.


 
 I went to *Control Panel*, and to *Sound *and to *Manage Audio Devices*...  *Right Clicked* on the "speakers that say Dragonfly red..."  Selected *Properties*...  And Selected *Level and adjust slider to *20% for my IEMs.
  
 With those settings, I have nice control from Foobar2000....    (ca 50% is loud for most files),     Adjust the LEVEL above up or down to match your IEMs...


----------



## AJTSin

joedoe said:


> Agreed. Haven't had a chance to use the DFR with my MacBook yet, but I have used it with the iPhone 6S, and it's caused me to sell my AK100ii, which I find redundant and cumbersome compared to just carrying my phone with basically a thumb drive!




Curious are you using usb2 or 3 camera kit with iPhone 6s?


----------



## brent75

My two cents: CCK is actually better for out and about. It's smaller/more discreet/more flexible (it seems like) than 3.

The benefits of 3 are if you're stationed somewhere and recharging (which is something I'm not doing when I'm out and about).


----------



## JoeDoe

ajtsin said:


> Curious are you using usb2 or 3 camera kit with iPhone 6s?




I'm using 2


----------



## defguy

theeldestboy said:


> Thanks for this!
> 
> I've actually viewed Tyll's youtube review of the HiFiMan 400s (a few times
> 
> ...


 
    I know you are fairly set on the HD 600, but you may find that some of the alternatives suggested may be just as good or better while still being easy to drive. For example, I personally prefer my K702 Anniversaries to my 600's and I've tried out some others in store with my DFR that I'm pretty sure I would prefer as well. If you are looking for an easily transportable set up, I would be inclined to look at other options. In some ways, I actually prefer my Noble 3's with the DFR to my desktop setup and I can use it anywhere


----------



## crazywipe

I am using the DFR with the Sennheiser hd 600 all the time and the pairing is _very good_ in my opinion. 
 The Audio Technica m50x pairing is _outstanding, _The soundstage is massively opened, the bass is much more controlled, and the detail is much better.
 The Fostex T50rp mk3 pairing is _passable, _These cans needs a more powerful amp in my opinion.


----------



## indieman

crazywipe said:


> I am using the DFR with the Sennheiser hd 600 all the time and the pairing is _very good_ in my opinion.
> The Audio Technica m50x pairing is _outstanding, _The soundstage is massively opened, the bass is much more controlled, and the detail is much better.
> The Fostex T50rp mk3 pairing is _passable, _These cans needs a more powerful amp in my opinion.



Ohhh... I have the m50x and want to get the hd600s. This is good news!


----------



## estreeter

cactuspete23 said:


> I went to *Control Panel*, and to *Sound *and to *Manage Audio Devices*...  *Right Clicked* on the "speakers that say Dragonfly red..."  Selected *Properties*...  And Selected *Level and adjust slider to *20% for my IEMs.
> 
> With those settings, I have nice control from Foobar2000....    (ca 50% is loud for most files),     Adjust the LEVEL above up or down to match your IEMs...


 
  
 No question that you can finetune the volume from within your playback app, but I agree with @CactusPete23 and others that the OS setting will still seem unacceptably tiny (little headroom at the other end of the spectrum from those with hard to drive to cans). Dumbfounded by this response from John Darko to a query re the volume control on the DFR:
  
*I used the Red with both Noble and Fitear CIEMs and have zero issues. Running them at around 15-20% of full volume*.
  
 I know some highend IEMs are higher impedance than my 16-ohm Philips and Sony cheapies, but even with the Shure SE425 I cant simply go from '4' to '5' without being surprised by the SPL increase. FWIW, I seem to have move room to move in Linux, but that was before I noticed that the max volume setting in DeadBeef is '-2dB'. FUBAR indeed


----------



## newyorker4life

I'm auditioning DFR with Oppo PM3s and iPhone as source (Spotify and ripped FLAC) and disappointed that I seem to lose track/volume control from the Oppo PM3 iOS cable. After I plug DFR into Apple CCK and Oppo iOS cable attached to iPhone, I lose Oppo iOS cable track & volume control. If this is not just something I'm doing wrong, I'll be returning DFR sadly. Losing remote track & volume control for a portable music source is losing a lot. Anyone have some thoughts here?


----------



## WutDaFunk

To those who have the black version. 
  
Does it work well with android phones? I have the red version and the volume output is very low on my galaxy S5 and I have to turn it up to about 100% to get a decent listening volume. I know it's a common problem with the red version, so I'm wondering if the black version has the same problem. I only use Spotify Premium, so using an app like UAPP is not an option for me. If anyone has the dragonfly black and can test it with their android phone using Spotify or any other app without using UAPP it would be greatly appreciated!


----------



## canali

wutdafunk said:


> To those who have the black version.
> 
> Does it work well with android phones? I have the red version and the volume output is very low on my galaxy S5 and I have to turn it up to about 100% to get a decent listening volume. I know it's a common problem with the red version, so I'm wondering if the black version has the same problem. I only use Spotify Premium, so using an app like UAPP is not an option for me. If anyone has the dragonfly black and can test it with their android phone using Spotify or any other app without using UAPP it would be greatly appreciated!


 
 when i tried them both on my lg nexus 5 the red required similar volumes of 90% max for good sound
 (and i'm not saying blasting either as i like to keep my hearing longterm, thanks very much)
  
 ...the black required less: more like 60-70% max volume for same output.
  
 just glad i p/u a (craigslist) cheaper ipod touch...that took care of things.


----------



## WutDaFunk

canali said:


> when i tried them both on my lg nexus 5 the red required similar volumes of 90% max for good sound
> (and i'm not saying blasting either as i like to keep my hearing longterm, thanks very much)
> 
> ...the black required less: more like 60-70% max volume for same output.
> ...


 
 Thanks for the very quick reply! Did you use UAPP at all?


----------



## canali

wutdafunk said:


> Thanks for the very quick reply! Did you use UAPP at all?


 
 nope....sorry i didn't make that clear...my lg nexus 5 only had a laughable 16 gb of ram 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 as i got it _before_ i got into audio, not knowing i'd need more...like needing wayyyyyyyy more.
 but i've heard good things on that uapp app....works for Tidal, too.


----------



## newyorker4life

newyorker4life said:


> I'm auditioning DFR with Oppo PM3s and iPhone as source (Spotify and ripped FLAC) and disappointed that I seem to lose track/volume control from the Oppo PM3 iOS cable. After I plug DFR into Apple CCK and Oppo iOS cable attached to iPhone, I lose Oppo iOS cable track & volume control. If this is not just something I'm doing wrong, I'll be returning DFR sadly. Losing remote track & volume control for a portable music source is losing a lot. Anyone have some thoughts here?




I got an email back from audioquest very quickly and after regular business hours which is impressive. Kudos there. However. Disappointed to confirm DFR does not support any headphone track & volume control. Now honestly - this info should be included in product description, which I suggested. Now I'm wondering what, if any other DACs support headphone volume & track control. For people who want a truly mobile solution....gym, dog walking, shopping,.... $200 and no headphone control (!) is a deal breaker. Will sadly return DFR. This information should be included PROMINENTLY in the product description - considering how it's marketed aggressively for portable use with mobile phones. What good is marketing a portable DAC for portable iOS friendly headphones.... without any darn headphone control support? Very disappointing, But very prompt reply from the company after hours - which is unusually prompt and appreciated. At least I know for sure now. I think I'm not the only customer who will have this concern.


----------



## indieman

Maybe if it's requested enough they'll make a revision and add headphone control support?


----------



## newyorker4life

indieman said:


> Maybe if it's requested enough they'll make a revision and add headphone control support?




Good thought - I hope people let them know this is not really a portable DAC for mobile phones without headphone support.


----------



## Duncan

newyorker4life said:


> Good thought - I hope people let them know this is not really a portable DAC for mobile phones without headphone support.


does that even work through USB? 

Would be an interesting feature, but the SQ improvement is more important to me than the now redundant buttons on the cable.


----------



## Duncan

As an aside, I must be quite deaf, this is the volume I listen at with the DFR...


----------



## SpiderNhan

newyorker4life said:


> Good thought - I hope people let them know this is not really a portable DAC for mobile phones without headphone support.


 
 All portable DACs support headphones, hence the headphone port you can plug your headphones into. As for the little buttons that control volume, skip songs and pause/play, those do not work with any external DAC. This isn't an Audioquest limitation. DACs are there strictly to pull the digital files off of the source, decode them, amplify them and send them off to your music listening device of choice. Some DACs have control built into the DAC itself, like the FiiO E18 or Chord Mojo, but they will still not function with your headphone's controls. You're complaining about a solution to problem that doesn't exist. It's like asking why the zipper on your pants won't tie your shoes.
  
 There are two lightning cable DACs with controls that I know of. The Cipher cable that comes with the Sine or the EL-8 and the another one that is permanently attached to a pair of IEMs.


----------



## SpiderNhan

duncan said:


> As an aside, I must be quite deaf, this is the volume I listen at with the DFR...


 
 That's software volume. What about Hardware Volume?


----------



## Duncan

spidernhan said:


> That's software volume. What about Hardware Volume?


you know what I never realised there was a difference... 

Just checked, and at what I presume to be default... 80%??


----------



## SpiderNhan

Hmmm. What cans are you using?


----------



## Duncan

LG Quadbeat 3 AKG


----------



## newyorker4life

spidernhan said:


> All portable DACs support headphones, hence the headphone port you can plug your headphones into. As for the little buttons that control volume, skip songs and pause/play, those do not work with any external DAC. This isn't an Audioquest limitation. DACs are there strictly to pull the digital files off of the source, decode them, amplify them and send them off to your music listening device of choice. Some DACs have control built into the DAC itself, like the FiiO E18 or Chord Mojo, but they will still not function with your headphone's controls. You're complaining about a solution to problem that doesn't exist. It's like asking why the zipper on your pants won't tie your shoes.
> 
> There are two lightning cable DACs with controls that I know of. The Cipher cable that comes with the Sine or the EL-8 and the another one that is permanently attached to a pair of IEMs.




Thanks for the info. I do understand what a DAC does. Actually I am auditioning Sine + Cipher, and of course that does both have & allow the "little buttons" to control volume & track control. Everyone has their preferences, but for me truly portable means truly portable. Just my preference but being able to walk my dog, gym, shopping etc without removing and showing everyone around me in NYC my iPhone & some very expensive extra hardware every time I want to change volume or track forward, back, or repeat, For me, in my usage, in a city like NYC - that is not truly portable. I have certain issues and challenges that make gym extremely important. It may sound trite but being able to remotely switch track & adjust volume highly motivates me to work harder without interrupting the workout. Removing Iphone, dongles, extra cables from my pocket at gym or on subway commute just isn't practical or quite frankly, safe.

With all respect I'm not asking a zipper to tie my shoes, I'm just appreciating new info, learning that the same portability Sine + Cipher offers....is quite unique and not available in other external DACs. In auditioning / comparing Sine + Cipher vs. PM3 + DFR I'm finding Sine to be quite uncomfortable to wear at the moment. I'm too new in this forum for my profile to be displayed but I'm a home audiophile with klipsch & Yamaha reference rig (which I can control remotely via apps on mobile devices without touching source equipment - comes in very handy when cooking, cleaning house, etc) but headphones are new territory for me. 

Good info which I really appreciate though. With the exception of Sine, external DAC will not be appropriate, for me, for truly portable use. Your feedback will help me try and see if I can get through "break-in" discomfort with Sine, because it does seem to offer better listening experience than PM3 alone. This was very helpful, thank you.


----------



## SpiderNhan

I think the removal of the 3.5mm jack on the iPhone 7 and future Android models will create a surge of DAC cables in the coming months. I'm expecting to see tons of Cipher-like devices on the market soon along with their accompanying headphones. A company might even bite the bullet and release a universal DAC cable that works with any headphone. *ahem* FiiO! *cough cough*


----------



## CactusPete23

duncan said:


> LG Quadbeat 3 AKG


 
 They are  not the most efficient IEM @ 105db/mw.  But I'm surprised that with those 24ohm earphones that you need to be 80% on UAPP and 80% on UAPP's Hardware volume...
  
 Sorry if this is stupid question...  But have you moved the hardware volume setting while listening to see if volume goes up or down any?  I always seem to move them the wrong way first myself...     I usually set the UAPP Volume @ 50% , then adjust the hardware volume (under the ...   in upper right)  to get a "loud" volume.  Then I know that I can adjust up/down easily without going to the hardware volume ll the time...
  
 I do find that many higher bitrate recordings, especially those with more headroom, can require a higher volume setting.
  
 Anyway my experience


----------



## Duncan

No, I don't need 80% to play at reasonable volume, I like it quite loud, so I was being a little satirical, I really enjoy my on the go setup, and get into it (good for blocking out road noise etc)... 

Where I was going was those that a few posts back were mentioning that 20% on the volume was too loud, at my volume, it'd blow out their eardrums.


----------



## defbear

newyorker4life said:


> Thanks for the info. I do understand what a DAC does. Actually I am auditioning Sine + Cipher, and of course that does both have & allow the "little buttons" to control volume & track control. Everyone has their preferences, but for me truly portable means truly portable. Just my preference but being able to walk my dog, gym, shopping etc without removing and showing everyone around me in NYC my iPhone & some very expensive extra hardware every time I want to change volume or track forward, back, or repeat, For me, in my usage, in a city like NYC - that is not truly portable. I have certain issues and challenges that make gym extremely important. It may sound trite but being able to remotely switch track & adjust volume highly motivates me to work harder without interrupting the workout. Removing Iphone, dongles, extra cables from my pocket at gym or on subway commute just isn't practical or quite frankly, safe.
> 
> With all respect I'm not asking a zipper to tie my shoes, I'm just appreciating new info, learning that the same portability Sine + Cipher offers....is quite unique and not available in other external DACs. In auditioning / comparing Sine + Cipher vs. PM3 + DFR I'm finding Sine to be quite uncomfortable to wear at the moment. I'm too new in this forum for my profile to be displayed but I'm a home audiophile with klipsch & Yamaha reference rig (which I can control remotely via apps on mobile devices without touching source equipment - comes in very handy when cooking, cleaning house, etc) but headphones are new territory for me.
> 
> Good info which I really appreciate though. With the exception of Sine, external DAC will not be appropriate, for me, for truly portable use. Your feedback will help me try and see if I can get through "break-in" discomfort with Sine, because it does seem to offer better listening experience than PM3 alone. This was very helpful, thank you.


Sometimes when I leave the house I decide not to be an Audiofile for an hour or so and leave all the DAC scat at home. My iPhone and a set of Bose QC noise canceling earphones and I'm set for a walk, the gym, whatever. I give myself permission to enjoy a simple, less sonic, setup. My hd800 and master 11 will be there as will my DFR and Mojo. It's not to criticize anyone. An iPhone with a set of Klipsch 10i's by themselves is still an awesome combonation. Some times I forget that I don't always need the hardware with me. Different setups for different occasions. Poolside? Yup the Mojo comes with me.


----------



## newyorker4life

defbear said:


> Sometimes when I leave the house I decide not to be an Audiofile for an hour or so and leave all the DAC scat at home. My iPhone and a set of Bose QC noise canceling earphones and I'm set for a walk, the gym, whatever. I give myself permission to enjoy a simple, less sonic, setup. My hd800 and master 11 will be there as will my DFR and Mojo. It's not to criticize anyone. An iPhone with a set of Klipsch 10i's by themselves is still an awesome combonation. Some times I forget that I don't always need the hardware with me. Different setups for different occasions. Poolside? Yup the Mojo comes with me.




Well said. After realizing the limitations on DAC portability I have a pair of the new Bose BT soundsport IEMs en route. 

I agree with others that pending iPhone 7, and the success of Sine + Cipher, we are going to see more lightning integrated DACs. If only the Sine itself weren't so uncomfortable ....


----------



## brent75

newyorker4life said:


> Well said. After realizing the limitations on DAC portability I have a pair of the new Bose BT soundsport IEMs en route.
> 
> I agree with others that pending iPhone 7, and the success of Sine + Cipher, we are going to see more lightning integrated DACs. If only the Sine itself weren't so uncomfortable ....


 
 It's unfortunate you find Sine uncomfortable. How long are you giving it in your trial?
  
 I returned Momentum 2.0 because I found it uncomfortable...so fast forward 2 headphones later, and I was a little nervous about Sine. It didn't scream "ultimate comfort" when I first wore it...but it truly has grown on my and now I find it's as comfortable as anything else. Both my ears and head are slightly larger than average (size 7 and 3/8 hat).


----------



## tekwrx

newyorker4life said:


> I got an email back from audioquest very quickly and after regular business hours which is impressive. Kudos there. However. Disappointed to confirm DFR does not support any headphone track & volume control. Now honestly - this info should be included in product description, which I suggested. Now I'm wondering what, if any other DACs support headphone volume & track control. For people who want a truly mobile solution....gym, dog walking, shopping,.... $200 and no headphone control (!) is a deal breaker. Will sadly return DFR. This information should be included PROMINENTLY in the product description - considering how it's marketed aggressively for portable use with mobile phones. What good is marketing a portable DAC for portable iOS friendly headphones.... without any darn headphone control support? Very disappointing, But very prompt reply from the company after hours - which is unusually prompt and appreciated. At least I know for sure now. I think I'm not the only customer who will have this concern.


 
 I know it's not really an answer, but I use my smartwatch as a track and volume control while using a USB DAC. Works very well. I use a Sony smartwatch with Android Wear, but I'm sure an Apple watch would have the same function. If you feel that is too expensive for a remote control (or wouldn't get value out of the other functions it offers, I know FiiO makes an inexpensive bluetooth remote that should work just as well https://www.amazon.com/RM1-Multifunctional-Bluetooth-Remote-Controller/dp/B01F2I638C/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1466278487&sr=1-1&keywords=fiio+remote I'm sure there are other brands as well. Something to think about so you don't settle for an inferior DAC just because it has track and volume control


----------



## defbear

Apple deleting the 1/8 headphone jack is absolutely criminal.


----------



## newyorker4life

tekwrx said:


> I know it's not really an answer, but I use my smartwatch as a track and volume control while using a USB DAC. Works very well. I use a Sony smartwatch with Android Wear, but I'm sure an Apple watch would have the same function. If you feel that is too expensive for a remote control (or wouldn't get value out of the other functions it offers, I know FiiO makes an inexpensive bluetooth remote that should work just as well https://www.amazon.com/RM1-Multifunctional-Bluetooth-Remote-Controller/dp/B01F2I638C/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1466278487&sr=1-1&keywords=fiio+remote I'm sure there are other brands as well. Something to think about so you don't settle for an inferior DAC just because it has track and volume control





tekwrx said:


> I know it's not really an answer, but I use my smartwatch as a track and volume control while using a USB DAC. Works very well. I use a Sony smartwatch with Android Wear, but I'm sure an Apple watch would have the same function. If you feel that is too expensive for a remote control (or wouldn't get value out of the other functions it offers, I know FiiO makes an inexpensive bluetooth remote that should work just as well https://www.amazon.com/RM1-Multifunctional-Bluetooth-Remote-Controller/dp/B01F2I638C/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1466278487&sr=1-1&keywords=fiio+remote I'm sure there are other brands as well. Something to think about so you don't settle for an inferior DAC just because it has track and volume control







brent75 said:


> It's unfortunate you find Sine uncomfortable. How long are you giving it in your trial?
> 
> I returned Momentum 2.0 because I found it uncomfortable...so fast forward 2 headphones later, and I was a little nervous about Sine. It didn't scream "ultimate comfort" when I first wore it...but it truly has grown on my and now I find it's as comfortable as anything else. Both my ears and head are slightly larger than average (size 7 and 3/8 hat).





tekwrx said:


> I know it's not really an answer, but I use my smartwatch as a track and volume control while using a USB DAC. Works very well. I use a Sony smartwatch with Android Wear, but I'm sure an Apple watch would have the same function. If you feel that is too expensive for a remote control (or wouldn't get value out of the other functions it offers, I know FiiO makes an inexpensive bluetooth remote that should work just as well https://www.amazon.com/RM1-Multifunctional-Bluetooth-Remote-Controller/dp/B01F2I638C/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1466278487&sr=1-1&keywords=fiio+remote I'm sure there are other brands as well. Something to think about so you don't settle for an inferior DAC just because it has track and volume control




Thanks for smartwatch suggestion. Unfortunately there is no Spotify Apple Watch app, yet. Grrrr. So far, I can't get the watch to control music playback the way I'd like to if I'm using Spotify. And Spotify is how I listen to music while on the go. I'm sure it's just a matter of time. Grrrr.

I'm about a month into this project, Started with a groupon for some $38 Sol Republic BT Tracks Air. Those I'm keeping with new perspective. Actually, I realize now they are the lightest and most comfy of all of them. The sound is "smaller", is the best way I can describe it, but very fast, bright, pleasing. Keyed in on comfort now that I've gotten the higher quality stuff. The Sol Republics retailed for $200 it was actually a Motorola product, but the company was acquired by Mortorola and rebranded the Tradks Air with SR logo. Cool looking .... and fun. They may be my best option for dog walking. I returned even cheaper pair of Bluedio Turbo T2 BT on-eat that were actually not bad sounding but torturous to wear. This was all to experiment without spending much and learn before I ordered pricey stuff.

3 days now into 14 day Apple return window for Sine. Third day today felt a bit it more comfortable. It's a very short timeframe there. I have three weeks more on the Oppo PM3s - they give 30 days from ship date. With the a/c on in my apartment it's harder to hear t.v. dialogue so I'm going to jack into my home stereo rig next and do some Nerflix with headphones.

What's most noticeable with Sine so far is how well powered it sounds with Cipher. It's not just marketing hype. That Cipher DAC may look small, but it doesn't feel small when you hold it in your hand and feel the weight of it. Honesty it feels more substantial to me than the DFR. Using iPhone with cipher I don't have volume even 1/3. With PM3 alone, no DAC, I have volume much higher. Pm3 with DFR, I can turn down volume, but not by a lot. Not by as much as I expected.

I have to say my ears were a bit sore and "fatigued" from the new stuff. When I got the Sol Republics back out and put them on today I realized just how good they are. And built in very intuitive headphone volume & track control in the headset itself. Flawless with Spotify. Once upon a time the SRs were only $100 less than refurb Oppo PM3. Man, that $38 was best deal this year on gear. I hope mine last and now I wish I bought two.

 The dragonfly is Amazon so I think that's 30 days and I just got it yesterday. It absolutely makes a difference on the PM3s, but honestly the Apple CCK/DFR combo on an iPhone or iPad on the go, well for me, for portability, it is kind of frankensteinish.

If I'm home, I'm using my home rig for music. The DFR wouldn't be for home listening. 

So I'll keep on....especially with Sine....to see if comfort improves. If the Sine were as comfy as PM3 this would be an easy choice.


----------



## WutDaFunk

wutdafunk said:


> To those who have the black version.
> 
> Does it work well with android phones? I have the red version and the volume output is very low on my galaxy S5 and I have to turn it up to about 100% to get a decent listening volume. I know it's a common problem with the red version, so I'm wondering if the black version has the same problem. I only use Spotify Premium, so using an app like UAPP is not an option for me. If anyone has the dragonfly black and can test it with their android phone using Spotify or any other app without using UAPP it would be greatly appreciated!


 
 Anyone else have a DFB with an android phone? I'm open to more input on this combination!


----------



## canali

boy is the red a powerhouse for iems....from my laptop i have my sony 7550s plugged in 
 ..and i'm at a low_ 4-10%_ of max volume to keep it at an enjoyable sound limit...anything more than that
 and it's nada, cannot do...however i have been listening for over 5 hrs today 
 but still...say if 'fresh' my ears could handle up to 10% max maybe....but i like to keep my hearing
 for longterm.
  
*https://www.youtube.com/user/basstheworldbyvideo/featured?&ab_channel=BassTheWorld.com*


----------



## rynogee

cactuspete23 said:


> Forgot to mention in above, I am using Foobar2000, with WASAPI (push)..   Not sure if that matters, or if it is "best" foobar output setting for DFR.  But seems to work well for me.


 
 Can you elaborate more on that plugin for foobar? I installed it, but not sure I've set it up right.
  
 I might be dreaming (edit, definitely not dreaming, it seems much better), but it might have made a difference for me on PC (setting system level at 20% then adjusting volume via foobar seems to be better than it was before)
  
 I'm on DFB though.
  
 (I also switched from a USB 3.0 to a standard USB 2 port, although not sure if/why that would make a difference)


----------



## CactusPete23

rynogee said:


> Can you elaborate more on that plugin for foobar? I installed it, but not sure I've set it up right.
> 
> I might be dreaming (edit, definitely not dreaming, it seems much better), but it might have made a difference for me on PC (setting system level at 20% then adjusting volume via foobar seems to be better than it was before)
> 
> ...


 
 Sorry, I am not a Foobar2000 expert.  I get confused easily when setting up also.  I did realize today that I can also get it to work with WASAPI using either (push) or (event).  Both sound good to me,  I do not know if one is better than the other.
  
 After you install the plugin for WASAPI,  And re-start FOOBAR2000,..Then insert your DF   Then in Foobar, click on FILE then Preferences.  You should get a popup with "components" listed.  Select "Output".   On this page click on the small "down arrow thing" on the right of the Device Window.  You should see the DF listed there under WASAPI twice, and also as DS Speakers... Pick one of the Wasabi , I also set it for 24 Bit below Device,  and then Close the Preferences Window.     Then play some music !
 (Remember, If your DFB is not plugged in,it won't show up as an output device)
  
 I am using USB 3.0, so that should not be an issue..
  
 Hope this helps some.


----------



## estreeter

spidernhan said:


> All portable DACs support headphones, hence the headphone port you can plug your headphones into. As for the little buttons that control volume, skip songs and pause/play, those do not work with any external DAC. This isn't an Audioquest limitation. DACs are there strictly to pull the digital files off of the source, decode them, amplify them and send them off to your music listening device of choice. Some DACs have control built into the DAC itself, like the FiiO E18 or Chord Mojo, but they will still not function with your headphone's controls. You're complaining about a solution to problem that doesn't exist. It's like asking why the zipper on your pants won't tie your shoes.
> 
> There are two lightning cable DACs with controls that I know of. The Cipher cable that comes with the Sine or the EL-8 and the another one that is permanently attached to a pair of IEMs.


 
  
 Yup - I suspect that he doesnt grasp the difference between a DAP, complete with its own operating system, and a DAC/amp.  Modern DAPs running Android are effectively smartphones without the telephony capability, but we've had some 'interesting' firmware on various boutique DAPs over the last 5 or so years. Portable DACs, for all their technical wizardry, are a much dumber device : signals only go one way from the headphone/line output. I'm also a little perplexed by the notion that Audioquest should list all the things the Dragonfly will NOT do in it's marketing for the device - I realise that its not targeted at seasoned audiophiles, but I cant think of a single product that is sold on it's perceived 'weaknesses'. Reviews, FAQs and forums are much more likely to uncover the chinks in the armor.


----------



## rosters

I have just bought the Red and am very pleased so far. My high res flac files are on my IPad. 
I use Onkyo HF player to access these and get the Dragonfly to display magenta confirming it is recieving 24/96 data. 

My problems start with tiring to access my high res files on my NAS. 
The Onkyo app does not have the facility to access network drives. 

I haves tried various apps and to date I cannot get bit perfect data to be passed to the DAC. 
I have tried Creation 5 , VLC and others. 

Does anyone know of an app which can access flac files on a network storage device and pas 24/96 out of the iPad 30 pin or iPhone lightning socket. 

The problem will get worse if I buy more high res files as I only have limited space on my apple devices.


----------



## CactusPete23

rosters said:


> I have just bought the Red and am very pleased so far. My high res flac files are on my IPad.
> I use Onkyo HF player to access these and get the Dragonfly to display magenta confirming it is recieving 24/96 data.
> 
> My problems start with tiring to access my high res files on my NAS.
> ...


 
 First let me say that I do not know if this idea will work with Apple devices.  Just trying to give you a potential alternate solution.
  
 Could you store High Res files on a USB Drive, and connect that drive to the same cable that your DFR is now connected to?   You might need a small hub, a different Apple Cable, or a custom cable to do this nicely...  The USB cable (in theory) has 5 to 10 times the capacity needed to send the music files to the phone (For your Player APP) and then back to the DFR.   If you don't have a hub, you could at least test with a flash drive that you have loaded with a few files, that your phone and APP can read and play the files through the phone 3.5mm jack, by replacing the DFR with the flash drive ?   Flash drives as large as 256GB are available....   Or you could have smaller ones with different music styles, bit rates, etc...
  
 And I thought someone with an i-phone spoke of an Apple Cable that would allow DFR plus phone charging..  That Cable "might" work, unless the charging split of the cable is power only, and no data.  
  
 IF you try this, let the community know if it works!


----------



## crazywipe

Hey guys my Dragonfly RED review is up! You can check it here: http://www.head-fi.org/products/audioquest-dragonfly-red-usb-dac-preamp-headphone-amp/reviews/16249
 It's my first review here, please be kind!


----------



## SpiderNhan

rosters said:


> I have just bought the Red and am very pleased so far. My high res flac files are on my IPad.
> I use Onkyo HF player to access these and get the Dragonfly to display magenta confirming it is recieving 24/96 data.
> 
> My problems start with tiring to access my high res files on my NAS.
> ...



Have you looked into something like this? 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00ZCFYF2W/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?qid=1466357721&sr=8-1&pi=SX200_QL40&keywords=wifi+flash+drive&dpPl=1&dpID=2195Jr6rvRL&ref=plSrch


----------



## Duncan

crazywipe said:


> Hey guys my Dragonfly RED review is up! You can check it here: http://www.head-fi.org/products/audioquest-dragonfly-red-usb-dac-preamp-headphone-amp/reviews/16249
> It's my first review here, please be kind!


looking good 

Here is to many more reviews from you


----------



## CactusPete23

spidernhan said:


> Have you looked into something like this?
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00ZCFYF2W/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?qid=1466357721&sr=8-1&pi=SX200_QL40&keywords=wifi+flash+drive&dpPl=1&dpID=2195Jr6rvRL&ref=plSrch


 
  
 That looks perfect for any phone with un-expandable memory !


----------



## crazywipe

duncan said:


> looking good
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks!


----------



## McCol

Probably unlikely request here but has anybody compared the DFR to the LG HIFi plus Dac module?  
  
 I'm assuming(prob wrongly) that the 9028 dac in the LG is a better standard than the 9016 in the DFR.


----------



## bimadz

I am getting louder volume from Black than Red when using it with iPhone 6, thought it should be the other way around? Anyone encountered the same issue here?


----------



## estreeter

bimadz said:


> I am getting louder volume from Black than Red when using it with iPhone 6, thought it should be the other way around? Anyone encountered the same issue here?


 
  
 According to recent posts in this thread, that's _exactly_ what you should expect, regardless of source. Counter-intuitive given the price difference, but volume control is implemented differently between the two DFs (DFB has the analog volume control internally while the DFR has a whizbang new digital volume control). The only thing I can add is that I definitely have more headroom with the Linux volume control (max volume in DeadBeef) than I do under Windows 8 - make of that what you will.


----------



## kelly200269

rosters said:


> I have just bought the Red and am very pleased so far. My high res flac files are on my IPad.
> I use Onkyo HF player to access these and get the Dragonfly to display magenta confirming it is recieving 24/96 data.
> 
> My problems start with tiring to access my high res files on my NAS.
> ...



NePlayer on the iTunes site is a download for £10.99. Yes, it's a lot for an app but it streams in highres perfectly from my WD NAS to my iPad and iPod Touch 5G, using the CCK and my DF Red. It works perfectly, and the coloured LED on the DFR shows the correct sampling rate. It's a very intuitive app IMO and is well well the money.

Sent from my E6653 using Tapatalk


----------



## WutDaFunk

My DFR shows that it's playing 96khz files (magenta) while playing Spotify on my Galaxy S5. I believe it should be green though. Anyone else have this issue?


----------



## Devodonaldson

wutdafunk said:


> My DFR shows that it's playing 96khz files (magenta) while playing Spotify on my Galaxy S5. I believe it should be green though. Anyone else have this issue?


 The fact that you are listening to Spotify shows that you are using android audio drivers. Your S5 is up sampling the audio and all apps will do that when using native android audio. You have to use an app that bypasses the android usb drivers to be able to play your audio in it's native resolution. Such as Onkyo hf player or Uapp. However these apps play locally stored files, or in the case of UAPP, it can connect to Tidal music for FLAC.


----------



## rosters

thanks for all your suggestions


----------



## kovacs

After owning a Dragonfly Black for three weeks the only thing I would like to change is their gain, the high gain makes volume adjustments, escpecially on iOS, very tricky with my low impedance headphones. I would really like to buy a Dragonfly Red, but I'm afraid that their even higher output will make finding the perfect listening volume almost impossible for me. If they release a firmware update where we can reduce the gain I will order one immediately. For my headphones I would be happy with 30% of what it's now.


----------



## CactusPete23

kovacs said:


> After owning a Dragonfly Black for three weeks the only thing I would like to change is their gain, the high gain makes volume adjustments, escpecially on iOS, very tricky with my low impedance headphones. I would really like to buy a Dragonfly Red, but I'm afraid that their even higher output will make finding the perfect listening volume almost impossible for me. If they release a firmware update where we can reduce the gain I will order one immediately. For my headphones I would be happy with 30% of what it's now.


 
 Can you just turn down the "master volume" a bit ?  The DFR "Flight manual" shows this on a  IOS set-up screen image...


----------



## kovacs

cactuspete23 said:


> Can you just turn down the "master volume" a bit ?  The DFR "Flight manual" shows this on a  IOS set-up screen image...


 

 On Mac OSX the master volume is just the sytem volume, you can control that with your keyboard in steps of 1 or 1/4 if you hold down ALT+Shift, in addition to that most apps have their own volume control, so it's not such a big problem here. However on iOS there is only one volume control, which is the system volume, it works but I can only use the first 4 bars ( of 16 ) with my easy to drive low impedance headphones before it gets too loud.


----------



## rosters

kelly200269 said:


> NePlayer on the iTunes site is a download for £10.99. Yes, it's a lot for an app but it streams in highres perfectly from my WD NAS to my iPad and iPod Touch 5G, using the CCK and my DF Red. It works perfectly, and the coloured LED on the DFR shows the correct sampling rate. It's a very intuitive app IMO and is well well the money.
> 
> Sent from my E6653 using Tapatalk




I have bought the NePlayer app and I am able to access high res flac files from my NAS and my Seagate Wireless portable drive. 
A great solution to my problem.


----------



## estreeter

I really have to wonder if Audioquest rushed the new Dragonflys to market without doing all the necessary testing. Why else would the page for the desktop app still read 'Coming Soon' several months after their introduction ?
  
 http://www.audioquest.com/dragonfly-app
  
 I dont want a firmware update, but I would like to reset my DFB under Windows where the light remains red regardless of which port its in. Works fine under Linux, but_ how many of the DFB's target market will be running Linux alongside a WIndows install _? Between that and the gain issue on Windows, I'm inclined to ask myself if the money may have been better spent elsewhere - fortunately the sonics from a powered USB hub banish those thoughts, but this is the last time I'll buy a DAC/amp without its own external volume control (OK, I spent 18 happy months with HRT's microStreamer and it was rarely an issue, but that had much finer increments when you increased the OS volume control).
  
 Edit: 'resetting' the DFB was a matter of inserting it into another WIndows PC - it remained red for a while but eventually did whatever handshaking is necessary to move into green and subsequently works under Win8 on my laptop.


----------



## razmalai

Using Dragonfly Black with Android N Developer Preview 4 on Nexus 6.
  
USB Audio Player Pro is not necessary (in fact it's not working for me).
  
Playing music through VLC Player and Dragonfly Black color shows up as magenta.
  
Received a phone call and phone audio also came thru USB audio.
  
Interesting.  Anyone else have similar results?


----------



## razmalai

Correction:  only phone ring came thru but not other party's voice when call was answered


----------



## AJTSin

Still sorting this stuff all out, I just ordered a Magni 2 Uber to use my now HE-400i cans with my vinyl setup. (Planar 2 > Ortofon 2M Blue > Cambridge Audio Azur 640p > Magni Uber 2 > HE-400i) 

But now that I'll have a Magni, im curious about using the DF Red as a DAC into the Magni on a desktop setup. Anyone doing this? What system sound level (MacBook Pro) do you run the DF at to achieve a line level type input into another amp? Do I have to worry about double amping?

If this setup goes well, I could see myself getting a Vali 2 Tube for Vinyl, DF Red>Magni for desktop and DF Red alone for iPad and iPhone mobile etc.


----------



## fjrabon

ajtsin said:


> Still sorting this stuff all out, I just ordered a Magni 2 Uber to use my now HE-400i cans with my vinyl setup. (Planar 2 > Ortofon 2M Blue > Cambridge Audio Azur 640p > Magni Uber 2 > HE-400i)
> 
> But now that I'll have a Magni, im curious about using the DF Red as a DAC into the Magni on a desktop setup. Anyone doing this? What system sound level (MacBook Pro) do you run the DF at to achieve a line level type input into another amp? Do I have to worry about double amping?
> 
> If this setup goes well, I could see myself getting a Vali 2 Tube for Vinyl, DF Red>Magni for desktop and DF Red alone for iPad and iPhone mobile etc.




I'd go max volume if using it as a DAC; 2.1 volts is a very normal line level out for a DAC.


----------



## slackerpo

razmalai said:


> Using Dragonfly Black with Android N Developer Preview 4 on Nexus 6.
> 
> USB Audio Player Pro is not necessary (in fact it's not working for me).
> 
> ...


 
  
 that is very interesting.
  
 would you share your experience with other apps (streaming or players), regarding the volume "issues". if they are lessend or gone, im totally installing


----------



## defguy

I've used DFR with the original Magni, I just set  the level at max in the software and adjusted volume on the amp,  worked great and spanked my regular desktop DAC.( Original Dacmagic)


----------



## manizkrishnan

I have been using DFB for the past 30 days. I really like the amplifier portion of this DAC as It is able to drive all of my headphones (T50RP MK3, Polk Buckle). But  I am really disappointed with this DAC. I compared with my Original Dacmagic and DFB sounded lifeless    I had DF 1.2 for sometime and DF 1.2 sounded the same. It was very analytical and I felt like It was just amplifying the the sound. Has anyone compared this with Fiio W10k ?


----------



## TheEldestBoy

ajtsin said:


> Still sorting this stuff all out, I just ordered a Magni 2 Uber to use my now HE-400i cans with my vinyl setup. (Planar 2 > Ortofon 2M Blue > Cambridge Audio Azur 640p > Magni Uber 2 > HE-400i)
> 
> But now that I'll have a Magni, im curious about using the DF Red as a DAC into the Magni on a desktop setup. Anyone doing this? What system sound level (MacBook Pro) do you run the DF at to achieve a line level type input into another amp? Do I have to worry about double amping?
> 
> If this setup goes well, I could see myself getting a Vali 2 Tube for Vinyl, DF Red>Magni for desktop and DF Red alone for iPad and iPhone mobile etc.


 
  
 I'm contemplating something similar:  
  
 Purchasing the DFR _and_ the Schiit Magni 2.

Using the DFR (as a DAC) + the Magni 2 as my desktop set-up.
Using the DFR + iPhone for mobile use.
  
 This would save me $99.00 on not having to purchase the Modi 2.
  
 Can anyone chime-in here on the Modi vs the DFR (as a DAC)?
 Any reasons why the above desktop set-up_ wouldn't_ be a good option?


----------



## fjrabon

theeldestboy said:


> I'm contemplating something similar:
> 
> Purchasing the DFR _and_ the Schiit Magni 2.
> 
> ...



I'm not a big fan of the modi and I think the DFR sounds better than the Modi to being with. However the modi has one advantage when paired with the Magni: RCA to RCA interconnects are generally better than 3.5mm to RCA. Not the biggest deal in the world, but something to consider.


----------



## TheEldestBoy

fjrabon said:


> I'm not a big fan of the modi and I think the DFR sounds better than the Modi to being with. However the modi has one advantage when paired with the Magni: RCA to RCA interconnects are generally better than 3.5mm to RCA. Not the biggest deal in the world, but something to consider.


 
  
  
 Is there a loss in sound quality when connecting 3.5mm to RCA (versus RCA to RCA)?
  
 I should also mention, the above set-ups will be paired with the* HD600s*.


----------



## fjrabon

theeldestboy said:


> Is there a loss in sound quality when connecting 3.5mm to RCA (versus RCA to RCA)?
> 
> I should also mention, the above set-ups will be paired with the *HD600s*.




Hard to say exactly without knowing/measuring the specifics cables, but in general every time you go through a TRS connector you'll introduce some amount of crosstalk.


----------



## KraftD1

Picked up a DFR yesterday.  People weren't kidding about the poor paint job.  Edges had paint chips out of the box.  It is also heavier than I expected based on the size.


----------



## notfitforpublic

theeldestboy said:


> Is there a loss in sound quality when connecting 3.5mm to RCA (versus RCA to RCA)?
> 
> I should also mention, the above set-ups will be paired with the* HD600s*.


 
  
 I don't think you'd be able to notice any amount of cross talk a TRS connection is going to introduce between a Dragonfly and Magni 2. Use a quality cable and you won't have any issues.


----------



## MaxMingus

Has anyone tried the red or the black with an LG G3 (runs Android Lolipop)? I'm about ready to bite down on one or the other but wanted to know if there are any compatibility issues.


----------



## fjrabon

notfitforpublic said:


> I don't think you'd be able to notice any amount of cross talk a TRS connection is going to introduce between a Dragonfly and Magni 2. Use a quality cable and you won't have any issues.


 

 sure, it isn't a big deal, but there is a reason that audio makers don't ever use TRS as interconnects, despite them being smaller and easier to work with.  In general XLR > RCA > TRS when it comes to connector quality.  Especially when the entire stereo image is being transported (ie not when going into the earcups, which is at that point, a mono signal).  Crosstalk is one issue, not as solid of a connection and being slightly noisier are others.  

 Now, again, I don't want to overstate how big of a deal this is, it's a tiny difference, especially on a well made cable.  But then again, this is HiFi Audio, what we care about are the tiny differences.  I'd say the difference in audio quality between the DFR (with DFR being better) is greater than the difference in interconnects.  But it's also why I wouldn't really recommend the DFR if your primary use is as a DAC only.  I actually think that the DFR sounds better than the Modi2/Magni2 stack anyway, unless you just need the Magni's power (few people will).  I know a lot of people who think that a wall wart is the be all and end all of audio quality will cry heresy, but to my ears the DFR beats the MM stack for most headphones.


----------



## Duncan

That is why Audioquest make this


----------



## notfitforpublic

fjrabon said:


> sure, it isn't a big deal, but there is a reason that audio makers don't ever use TRS as interconnects, despite them being smaller and easier to work with.  In general XLR > RCA > TRS when it comes to connector quality.  Especially when the entire stereo image is being transported (ie not when going into the earcups, which is at that point, a mono signal).  Crosstalk is one issue, not as solid of a connection and being slightly noisier are others.
> 
> Now, again, I don't want to overstate how big of a deal this is, it's a tiny difference, especially on a well made cable.  But then again, this is HiFi Audio, what we care about are the tiny differences.  I'd say the difference in audio quality between the DFR (with DFR being better) is greater than the difference in interconnects.  But it's also why I wouldn't really recommend the DFR if your primary use is as a DAC only.  I actually think that the DFR sounds better than the Modi2/Magni2 stack anyway, unless you just need the Magni's power (few people will).  I know a lot of people who think that a wall wart is the be all and end all of audio quality will cry heresy, but to my ears the DFR beats the MM stack for most headphones.


 

 Nope, don't disagree with a single bit of that. but your second paragraph is far more important over the crosstalk of a TRS connector


----------



## fjrabon

duncan said:


> That is why Audioquest make this


 
 I think that's more so that it will work with existing setups (since most people's current chains involve RCA and not TRS connections) more than to help with the TRS issue.  Since it still has a TRS in it.  Unnecessary connectors usually exacerbate the problem rather than helping it.


----------



## fjrabon

notfitforpublic said:


> Nope, don't disagree with a single bit of that. but your second paragraph is far more important over the crosstalk of a TRS connector


 

 I guess the point I was probably trying to make, that I maybe should have just come out and said more clearly, is that it's very likely the DFR will sound better by itself than the DFR > Magni2 will.  The Magni2 will likely just be clouding up the signal with unnecessary electronics and needlessly going through more cables and internal electronics.  More places for noise, crosstalk and distortion to be introduced.  In general the simpler the chain, the better.  Now, if you need the extra power, that's a different matter entirely.  I never thought the HD650 sounded that good with the Magni2Uber.  Never tried a HD600 with it.


----------



## TheEldestBoy

fjrabon said:


> I guess the point I was probably trying to make, that I maybe should have just come out and said more clearly, is that it's very likely the DFR will sound better by itself than the DFR > Magni2 will.  The Magni2 will likely just be clouding up the signal with unnecessary electronics and needlessly going through more cables and internal electronics.  More places for noise, crosstalk and distortion to be introduced.  In general the simpler the chain, the better.  Now, if you need the extra power, that's a different matter entirely.  I never thought the HD650 sounded that good with the Magni2Uber.  Never tried a HD600 with it.


 
  
  
fjrabon
  
 Have you had a chance to pair the DFR with a set of *HD 600s* or *HD 650s*?


----------



## fjrabon

theeldestboy said:


> fjrabon
> 
> Have you had a chance to pair the DFR with a set of *HD 600s* or *HD 650s*?


 
 haven't had a chance yet.  So far with the DFR I've used all the headphones in my signature (except the Elear, which I don't have yet).  Will hopefully get a chance to try it with a bunch more cans in a month or two.  Will probably try to put together an Atlanta meet this summer some time.  Will also get to try it with the Elear, HD800 and HE1000 around the beginning of July.


----------



## TheEldestBoy

fjrabon said:


> haven't had a chance yet.  So far with the DFR I've used all the headphones in my signature (except the Elear, which I don't have yet).  Will hopefully get a chance to try it with a bunch more cans in a month or two.  Will probably try to put together an Atlanta meet this summer some time.  Will also get to try it with the Elear, HD800 and HE1000 around the beginning of July.


 
  
  
 Are any of those cans (the ones mentioned in your signature) as difficult to drive as the HD 600s or the HD 650s?  If so, how did they DFR fare?


----------



## fjrabon

theeldestboy said:


> Are any of those cans as difficult to drive as the HD 600s or the HD 650s?  If so, how did they DFR fare?


 

 nah, they're all a bit easier to drive than the HD600, but the DFR had plenty of juice for all of them.  If anything I kind of wish the DFR had a low gain mode, because I was on the very low end of the volume with all of them.


----------



## TheEldestBoy

fjrabon said:


> nah, they're all a bit easier to drive than the HD600, but the DFR had plenty of juice for all of them.  If anything I kind of wish the DFR had a low gain mode, because I was on the very low end of the volume with all of them.


 
  
 A few posters have mentioned that the DFR does a good job of driving the HD 600's.  
 That's the combo I'm thinking of buying in the fall (DFR + HD 600s), so the more positive things I read about that pairing, the more confident I am in making that purchase.
  
 Looking forward to reading your thoughts on the DFR + HD650's in a couple of months!


----------



## kovacs

fjrabon said:


> nah, they're all a bit easier to drive than the HD600, but the DFR had plenty of juice for all of them.  If anything I kind of wish the DFR had a low gain mode, because I was on the very low end of the volume with all of them.


 

 So even with a HD600 the gain is too high ? 
  


kovacs said:


> After owning a Dragonfly Black for three weeks the only thing I would like to change is their gain, the high gain makes volume adjustments, escpecially on iOS, very tricky with my low impedance headphones. I would really like to buy a Dragonfly Red, but I'm afraid that their even higher output will make finding the perfect listening volume almost impossible for me. If they release a firmware update where we can reduce the gain I will order one immediately. For my headphones I would be happy with 30% of what it's now.


 
  
 I really hope this is something they will fix in a firmware update...


----------



## razmalai

.


----------



## razmalai

slackerpo said:


> that is very interesting.
> 
> would you share your experience with other apps (streaming or players), regarding the volume "issues". if they are lessend or gone, im totally installing


 
 Only other apps I have used are Podcast Addict and YouTube, which work fine streaming audio.  
  
 Not sure what the volume issues have been, but have not noted any here.


----------



## KraftD1

For the DFR I'm able to control output well with CanOpener. It has crossfeed/eq, but also a finer volume control


----------



## fjrabon

kovacs said:


> So even with a HD600 the gain is too high ?
> 
> 
> I really hope this is something they will fix in a firmware update...




I haven't tried them with the HD600. Also the gain is workable, just wish there was a gain switch. Gain was at the right level in the HE400i (volume at about half) but some other phones, if I wanted to listen quietly, was on the bottom 2-3 clicks. 

I wouldn't say it was a major issue at all. Just a minor way it could be improved. Would be nice if there was an iOS and OSX app that would let you put it in a low gain mode. Wonder if that's possible.


----------



## WutDaFunk

So I have both red and black versions, and after testing both of them out I have noticed that the black is a lot louder than the red. Is this because of the 64-bit volume control on the red? With a rating of 1.2 V I thought the black would be a lot quieter compared to the 2.1 V red. On my computer I have the red at about 20% volume, but with the black version having it at 6% is still louder than the red.


----------



## meetpatel3686

wutdafunk said:


> So I have both red and black versions, and after testing both of them out I have noticed that the black is a lot louder than the red. Is this because of the 64-bit volume control on the red? With a rating of 1.2 V I thought the black would be a lot quieter compared to the 2.1 V red. On my computer I have the red at about 20% volume, but with the black version having it at 6% is still louder than the red.


 
 What about sound quality difference between them?


----------



## WutDaFunk

meetpatel3686 said:


> What about sound quality difference between them?


 
 Aside from being louder, the black definitely sounds warmer and has more bass than the red. I have only used the black version for about half an hour so I cannot give an educated opinion on them yet.


----------



## Devodonaldson

wutdafunk said:


> Aside from being louder, the black definitely sounds warmer and has more bass than the red. I have only used the black version for about half an hour so I cannot give an educated opinion on them yet.



When you say you have the dac set at a particular volume are you referring to the volume of your player or the volume of the dac itself? On my android using uapp if turn the red at full gain, I can barely turn up the player volume. I set the dac at 75% and adjust player from there. And that is for my 62ohm headphones


----------



## WutDaFunk

devodonaldson said:


> When you say you have the dac set at a particular volume are you referring to the volume of your player or the volume of the dac itself? On my android using uapp if turn the red at full gain, I can barely turn up the player volume. I set the dac at 75% and adjust player from there. And that is for my 62ohm headphones


 
 Player volume is set at maximum. I am referring to the DAC volume on my computer. I was not using a mobile phone while I was testing both of them out


----------



## Duncan

Is this an iOS issue then? As there is plenty of scale on the DFR... 

Although I do get you, on my home DAC / amp I have both gain control and an extra volume control, for fine volume adjustment.


----------



## WutDaFunk

duncan said:


> Is this an iOS issue then? As there is plenty of scale on the DFR...
> 
> Although I do get you, on my home DAC / amp I have both gain control and an extra volume control, for fine volume adjustment.


 
 I am using Windows  and I have what seems to be the same problem. As I said in a previous post, the volume is REALLY loud on the black version, so loud that I have to turn down to about 4% compared to 20% on my red.


----------



## SpiderNhan

Just wanted to pop in and say DFR + KSC75 = OMG!


----------



## fjrabon

spidernhan said:


> Just wanted to pop in and say DFR + KSC75 = OMG!


 

 yeah, definitely a great ultraportable setup.  iPhone -> CCK -> DFR -> KSC75 is phenomenal


----------



## WutDaFunk

wutdafunk said:


> So I have both red and black versions, and after testing both of them out I have noticed that the black is a lot louder than the red. Is this because of the 64-bit volume control on the red? With a rating of 1.2 V I thought the black would be a lot quieter compared to the 2.1 V red. On my computer I have the red at about 20% volume, but with the black version having it at 6% is still louder than the red.


 
 I emailed this to AudioQuest. Here's their response:
  
  
_Dear Sir,_
_ _
_Yes, you’re right.  Dragonfly Black’s analog volume control uses non-linear “steps” which are not consistent 1dB intervals.  Dragonfly Red uses all 1dB steps in its digital volume control.  It’s the fact that Dragonfly Black is making these slightly bigger “steps” that throws people off.   Assuming you couldn’t overload the signal, Red would sound louder than Black at full volume due to its increased output (2.1V versus 1.2V).  And Red sounds better!_


----------



## ricksome

iDevice (MP3's) >>> DFB>>> Sony MDRV6 / Phillips SHP9500
 No Complaints>>> DFB>>> Highly Recommended


----------



## canali

wutdafunk said:


> I emailed this to AudioQuest. Here's their response:
> 
> 
> _Dear Sir,_
> ...


 
  holy mole!  Black is louder? with my laptop and dragonfly red I'm only at 4-8%
 for moderately loud volume levels as it is. Loving my new 1more e1001s.
  
 deciding now to go to  try the meze 99 classics or flc 8s...decisions.


----------



## suburbguy

I was thinking the same thing. 
  
 The upcoming elimination of the 3.5mm jack on the *iPhone* 7 and future Android models should create substantial interest in portable DAC units like the Dragonfly Black and Red - even among non-audiophiles.


----------



## suburbguy

I am still a relative dinosaur: I still use Apple Lossless Files that I burned from my large compact disc collection on various iDevices. 
  
 Even though this it not necessarily HD listening, the sound quality of these audio files when coupled with an iDevice, Jitterbug, Dragonfly Red, and a high quality pair of headphones is pretty good for the combined price and portability of all of the devices.


----------



## Muniek66

I got a little unusual problem. Does someone have tested the Dragonfly with headphones with remote control? I have Black version and unfortunately the remote control doesn't work,  as well as the controller of the Sound Blaster E3 (connected as AMP).
  
 P.S. Maybe it's heresy flowing from my inexperienced ears, but I compared the DFB to SB E3 (in DAC mode) on MrZ Tomahawk and I didn’t hear any big differences in sound quality, whether its signature, maybe except that Dragonfly slightly tempered bright up of Tomahawk – for my preferences is a plus. But the Sound Blaster is more functional, when it comes to mobile DAC for smartphone.


----------



## SpiderNhan

USB DACs currently lack the ability to pass headset controls onto the host device. This is reality with all external DACs. Some models will circumvent this with Bluetooth controls or hardware buttons built into the DAC itself, but it is not a shortcoming inherent in the Dragonfly design.


----------



## cribeiro

spidernhan said:


> USB DACs currently lack the ability to pass headset controls onto the host device. This is reality with all external DACs. Some models will circumvent this with Bluetooth controls or hardware buttons built into the DAC itself, but it is not a shortcoming inherent in the Dragonfly design.


 
 It is a shortcoming inherent in the Dragonfly design and apparently in all current USB DACs "for phone use". The fact that nobody is doing it does not mean that it is technically impossible. I would rather say that no manufacturer cared up to now and we will see it coming in some future (more expensive?) version.
 This is almost at the same level with having to buy UAPP for the intended use. In fact, back in the times where computer gear came with a decent driver (yes, a mobile phone is a computer), you would not need to install non-free third-party software for the device to work as intended.
 It is like buying a keyboard loaded with features, rely on the windows driver to control them and blame windows if they do not work and telling to spend some money on additional software to solve the issue. I know I am oversimplifying, but this is basically the case.


----------



## SpiderNhan

muniek66 said:


> I got a little unusual problem. Does someone have tested the Dragonfly with headphones with remote control? I have Black version and unfortunately the remote control doesn't work,  as well as the controller of the Sound Blaster E3 (connected as AMP).



I was addressing what Muniek66 posted, mainly, "I got a little unusual problem." It's not an unusual problem if it's the industry standard. It's also near impossible for flawless implementation of external DACs when things like upgrading from Lollipop to Marshmallow(or Android N) can render OTG functionally useless let alone the vast fragmentation among Android phones in general. 

To quote the late Mitch Hedberg,

"You can't please all of the people all of the time, and last night, all of those people were at my show. "


----------



## WutDaFunk

spidernhan said:


> I was addressing what @Muniek66 posted, mainly, "I got a little unusual problem." It's not an unusual problem if it's the industry standard. It's also near impossible for flawless implementation of external DACs when things like upgrading from Lollipop to Marshmallow(or Android N) can render OTG functionally useless let alone the vast fragmentation among Android phones in general.
> 
> To quote the late Mitch Hedberg,
> 
> "You can't please all of the people all of the time, and last night, all of those people were at my show. "


 
 Marshmallow and N doesn't support OTG?


----------



## SpiderNhan

wutdafunk said:


> Marshmallow and N doesn't support OTG?



I've read a couple posts in the Android phone/USB DAC thread where people had issues after upgrading certain models. My Galaxy S6 Active had no issues going from Lollipop to Marshmallow.


----------



## pkcpga

I have the dragonfly black with my iPhone 6 Plus and Noble savant. The sound improvement from this little amp is unbelievable, it actually gives a much fuller sound than when I had my phone plugged into my grado amp with the savant, for some reason I get better hitting lows with the dragonfly and don't loose much up top. It's really an amazing little amp. I tried the black and red, choose the black because the red appeared to kill my phone battery fairly quickly compared to the black. Also for me sound wise, the black seemed to have harder hitting bass and more volume. I actually thought something was wrong with the red until I read this thread. For $99 it's a great travel amp, very portable not much larger than having a remote and mic on your cable.


----------



## Devodonaldson

pkcpga said:


> I have the dragonfly black with my iPhone 6 Plus and Noble savant. The sound improvement from this little amp is unbelievable, it actually gives a much fuller sound than when I had my phone plugged into my grado amp with the savant, for some reason I get better hitting lows with the dragonfly and don't loose much up top. It's really an amazing little amp. I tried the black and red, choose the black because the red appeared to kill my phone battery fairly quickly compared to the black. Also for me sound wise, the black seemed to have harder hitting bass and more volume. I actually thought something was wrong with the red until I read this thread. For $99 it's a great travel amp, very portable not much larger than having a remote and mic on your cable.



Not trying to Rag on you, only inform. The positive change in sound quality you are noticing is not the amp section of the dragonfly that you are noticing. That is due to the dac portion. The amp merely amplifies the sound making it louder. It is the dac that is providing the tonal qualities that you are noticing as it takes the pure digital signal from your player and converts it to an analog signal to be played through your output device.


----------



## waynes world

devodonaldson said:


> Not trying to Rag on you, only inform. The positive change in sound quality you are noticing is not the amp section of the dragonfly that you are noticing. That is due to the dac portion. The amp merely amplifies the sound making it louder. It is the dac that is providing the tonal qualities that you are noticing as it takes the pure digital signal from your player and converts it to an analog signal to be played through your output device.


 
  
 I agree with you. But are you sure that the amp section only amplifies the sound and doesn't colour it in any way? Just curious.


----------



## pkcpga

Thanks for the info, my grado gs1000 do not sound as well through the dragonfly. The grado's now have an unnatural amount of bass so not sure if the dragonfly color the sound a bit or if the grado amp does but each seems to work well with a different headphone. My sennheiser hd800 seem to sound great with either.


----------



## SpiderNhan

waynes world said:


> I agree with you. But are you sure that the amp section only amplifies the sound and doesn't colour it in any way? Just curious.



Amps do color sound. Just listen to a tube amp and a solid state amp being fed by the same DAC and the differences are glaringly obvious. Then there's tube rolling. A lot of times the coloration of an amp is a deciding factor in how it pairs with one's headphones.


----------



## estreeter

Whether its the DAC or the amp in the Dragonfly that is 'coloring' the sound, *this is a device where you really need to like what's coming out of the 3.5 output or buy something else* - unless I'm missing something here, you cant run any of the Dragonfly DACs in 'amp only' mode as you can with a plethora of DAC/amps which offer analog input(s) (and/or a true line-out, for those who want to be pedantic). I think GR went to great lengths to ensure that 0dB on the DFR  results in a 2.1 volt line-level signal - whether the purists accept that its the same as the line-out on a CDP or desktop DAC is irrelevant if the sound signature of the DAC doesnt do it for you, as some in this thread have indicated.
  
 Personally, I'm very happy with what I'm hearing from the DFB via a *powered USB hub* and I urge anyone who isnt immediately blown away by either of these DACs to try to get their hands on a hub before passing judgement - I'd also like to give the Jitterbug or Schiit Wyrd a shot with the DFB but that starts to eat into the (superb) VFM equation. Its probably worth mentioning that I've sold/given away all the higher end gear I owned 18 or so months ago, and I accept that the *Solo2* isn't everyone's idea of an ideal headphone for gauging a component's sonic merits, but I think its a lot closer to the headphone currently gracing the earlobes of the DFB's target market than many here might care to admit


----------



## defbear

I use the DFR with an iPhone plus. Works great, sounds great. But sounds better with a Jitterbug. Same when using an Android tablet. Improves my Mojo as well. MacBook too. I hear a bigger soundstage and greater separation if instruments. Bass has cleaner edges.


----------



## scamper

Just purchased a dfr and it is amazing with my pc and ie80s. But, with my Nexus 6p, I cannot select USB audio with two different Benson approved C otg cables. 

The light never comes on.

And it shipped without the cap. 

Is there a comparible DAC amp that actually works with Android.

I have tried the USB audio app with no luck.

Any tips? I love the sound when it works.


----------



## canali

defbear said:


> I use the DFR with an iPhone plus. Works great, sounds great. But sounds better with a Jitterbug. Same when using an Android tablet. Improves my Mojo as well. MacBook too. I hear a bigger soundstage and greater separation if instruments. Bass has cleaner edges.


 
  fab little portable setup, eh, for on the go?
 (my 'eh' giving away my canuck roots 
  
 first thing in the morning: laptop to df red, dragontail and jitterbug to tidal hifi...have the trio and it makes me lazy to plug into my iFi/tube amp.
  
 this said i'm now searching for nice desktop setup under $500 or $1k


----------



## Duncan

suburbguy said:


> I was thinking the same thing.
> 
> The upcoming elimination of the 3.5mm jack on the *iPhone* 7 and future Android models should create substantial interest in portable DAC units like the Dragonfly Black and Red - even among non-audiophiles.


who said it is going to disappear from Android devices also? 

Guaranteed if this is correct that they will not use lightning connectors, so talk about fragmenting the market. :mad:


----------



## squish72

So far I'm loving my DFR but I made the mistake where I took it to work and used it on out shop stereo and it was amazing the difference over the stock Lg G4 I've been using. What im wanting to know is is there a good table top dac that can compare to the price vs performance of the DFR? Id prefer something cheaper but I know how good this dac is.


----------



## CactusPete23

scamper said:


> Just purchased a dfr and it is amazing with my pc and ie80s. But, with my Nexus 6p, I cannot select USB audio with two different Benson approved C otg cables.
> 
> The light never comes on.
> 
> ...


 
 I do not have a Nexus 6P so, cannot test myself.
 I saw somewhere that with "some" NEXUS phones it sometimes works to turn phone off(totally power it down).Then, Connect the DFR with your good OTG cable.  Then boot/turn on the phone.  Then start UAPP.   Unsure if this works,  Unsure if this (boot/start) only needs to be done once.     But with UAPP, it likes (needs?) the DAC to be connected to the phone before UAPP APP is started...


----------



## TheEldestBoy

Anyone else out there have an opinion on how the DFR compares to the basic Schiit stack (Modi + Magni)?
 [Specifically when paired with something like HD600/650s].
  
 Obviously, they differ in portability 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.
 I'm wondering about the sound.
  
 Both set-ups amount to approx the same price ($200 USD).


----------



## scamper

Thanks for the tips. I tried everything except for rebooting with the df installed. Still no dice, so it probably goes back.


----------



## scamper

from USB Host Check on my device
 handheld core hardware usb host not enabled
 tablet core hardware not found.
 android hard usb host OK


----------



## suburbguy

Deleted Post - See Replacement Post


----------



## drykoke

scamper said:


> from USB Host Check on my device
> handheld core hardware usb host not enabled
> tablet core hardware not found.
> android hard usb host OK


 
 If Dragonfly Red works on PC, but does not light up on your Android phone, this usually means that your Nexus 6P does not support USB OTG.
 Not the fault of the Dragonfly Red.
 I have several Android phones, half of which work, and half do not because the phones did not have USB OTG properly implemented. The ones that don't work happen to be 2 separate Huawei manufactured sets, which I gather the Nexus 6P also is.
  
 Please see this post on another forum about the USB problem with Nexus 6P:
 http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?s=cb014bf67322e86161b8b040149c0cbb&p=63414383&postcount=7


----------



## fjrabon

theeldestboy said:


> Anyone else out there have an opinion on how the DFR compares to the basic Schiit stack (Modi + Magni)?
> [Specifically when paired with something like HD600/650s].
> 
> Obviously, they differ in portability  .
> ...



I personally prefer the DFR though I've never used it with the HD600/650


----------



## TheEldestBoy

fjrabon said:


> I personally prefer the DFR though I've never used it with the HD600/650


 
  
 Have you used it with anything that has  similar impedance as the HD600/650's (300 Ohms)?


----------



## TheEldestBoy

fjrabon said:


> I personally prefer the DFR though I've never used it with the HD600/650


 
  
 Scratch that question of mine - I already asked you that a couple of days ago


----------



## estreeter

drykoke said:


> If Dragonfly Red works on PC, but does not light up on your Android phone, this usually means that your Nexus 6P does not support USB OTG.
> Not the fault of the Dragonfly Red.
> I have several Android phones, half of which work, and half do not because the phones did not have USB OTG properly implemented. The ones that don't work happen to be 2 separate Huawei manufactured sets, which I gather the Nexus 6P also is.
> 
> ...


 
  
 <RANT>
 This is one aspect where iOS absolutely c*aps all over Android AFAIC. I have two ZTE phones (Android 4.4 and 5.1), 3 OTG cables and a number of apps which assure me that host mode is supported on my phones but they cant even see my USB thumb driive via any of the cables. I've even tried it with my powered USB hub to ensure that the phone doesnt have to power the DFB, without success : at least an iDevice will tell you to go away if the perceived power requirements are too much for the device.
  
 I'm contemplating buying the AQ cable (their Dragontail for Android OTG cable) simply so that I can draw a line right through this as a moneypit that goes nowhere unless you have one of the big dollar Samsung or HTC phones which is known to support USB audio properly. This should be a case of DAC manufacturers being able to specify 'All Android devices running 5.x and above' with the proviso that some low-powered phones might need a USB hub : having to play Russian Roulette with different phones and DACs in 2016 is insane.
 </RANT>
  
 (While I'm in rant mode, the other niggle is whether or not an OTG connection is going to give me anything resembling the sound quality I've had with iDevices into DACs like the ADL X1 in the past - quite a few negative forum entries leave me wondering if I'm better off sticking with my slimline amp from the HO out)


----------



## CactusPete23

estreeter said:


> <RANT>
> This is one aspect where iOS absolutely c*aps all over Android AFAIC. I have two ZTE phones (Android 4.4 and 5.1), 3 OTG cables and a number of apps which assure me that host mode is supported on my phones but they cant even see my USB thumb driive via any of the cables. I've even tried it with my powered USB hub to ensure that the phone doesnt have to power the DFB, without success : at least an iDevice will tell you to go away if the perceived power requirements are too much for the device.
> 
> I'm contemplating buying the AQ cable (their Dragontail for Android OTG cable) simply so that I can draw a line right through this as a moneypit that goes nowhere unless you have one of the big dollar Samsung or HTC phones which is known to support USB audio properly. This should be a case of DAC manufacturers being able to specify 'All Android devices running 5.x and above' with the proviso that some low-powered phones might need a USB hub : having to play Russian Roulette with different phones and DACs in 2016 is insane.
> ...


 
  The DFR works perfectly with UAPP and my OPPO Find 7a phone, running their version of Android 5,1 ...  And I've used 50 cent OTG cables and $10 OTG cables with great sound quality from both.
  
 Hearing the problems of other Android Phone Owners; I feel lucky that mine works so well .   I would be really disappointed if my phone could not connect to a small external DAC, (Unless of course I had an HTC 10, LG V10, or another phone with great internal DAC and Amp)


----------



## estreeter

cactuspete23 said:


> <snip>
> 
> Hearing the problems of other Android Phone Owners;* I feel lucky that mine works so well* .   I would be really disappointed if my phone could not connect to a small external DAC, (Unless of course I had an HTC 10, LG V10, or another phone with great internal DAC and Amp)


 
  
 I've bolded the key part of your response as it sums up the 'problem' as I see it : you either get lucky (and I include those who've gone with a phone reported to work perfectly with their DAC) or its a cycle of frustration and money down the drain. I readily admit that my phones are cheap - I see it as throwaway technology with a 6-month lifespan - but if everything else works, how freaking hard would it have been for the manufacturer to get USB OTG working ?? This isnt just about audio - having access to external storage / keyboards etc strikes me as a perfectly reasonable expectation.


----------



## SpiderNhan

estreeter said:


> I've bolded the key part of your response as it sums up the 'problem' as I see it : you either get lucky (and I include those who've gone with a phone reported to work perfectly with their DAC) or its a cycle of frustration and money down the drain. I readily admit that my phones are cheap - I see it as throwaway technology with a 6-month lifespan - but if everything else works, how freaking hard would it have been for the manufacturer to get USB OTG working ?? This isnt just about audio - having access to external storage / keyboards etc strikes me as a perfectly reasonable expectation.



Then the omission of the 3.5mm jack in newer phones may bode well for future OTG functionality.

In response to your earlier rant, Apple phones are priced and marketed as premium products which is the market that HTC and Samsung, etc. are competing with. Samsung's lower end models also have issues with OTG support as I'm sure is the case with other companies' cheaper models.

It seems to me that anyone willing to spend $200 on a gadget that does nothing more than decode and amplify music files off a parent device would also be a person willing to spend a bit more for said parent device.

In any case, there is a thread right here on Head-Fi dedicated to Android phones and USB DACs where one can research potential Android/DAC pairings before wasting cash.


----------



## zolom

Today I had the opportunity to try the Red (with my s7e and shure se846, playing Poweramp 703).
 I was surprised how low was the volume level compared to my Black, under the same settings.


----------



## Duncan

squish72 said:


> So far I'm loving my DFR but I made the mistake where I took it to work and used it on out shop stereo and it was amazing the difference over the stock Lg G4 I've been using. What im wanting to know is is there a good table top dac that can compare to the price vs performance of the DFR? Id prefer something cheaper but I know how good this dac is.


if it is a computer based stereo (bearing in mind you're asking about a DAC), what would be wrong with the black version?


----------



## Muniek66

zolom said:


> Today I had the opportunity to try the Red (with my s7e and shure se846, playing Poweramp 703).
> I was surprised how low was the volume level compared to my Black, under the same settings.


 
  
 My friend, can you compare sound signature and quality in Black and Red versions? I read that Black has more bass, it's darker, warmer.
  
 I buy Black and consider change to Red, If quality jump will be significant, but I'm afraid that Red may be too bright for me (I like warm playing).


----------



## squish72

duncan said:


> if it is a computer based stereo (bearing in mind you're asking about a DAC), what would be wrong with the black version?


 
Well that's a good idea that I may try. My set up is like this: Lg G4--?dac?--old pioneer stereo receiver--speakers. I'm not limited to a 3.5 jack as the receiver has various imputs


----------



## zolom

muniek66 said:


> My friend, can you compare sound signature and quality in Black and Red versions? I read that Black has more bass, it's darker, warmer.
> 
> I buy Black and consider change to Red, If quality jump will be significant, but I'm afraid that Red may be too bright for me (I like warm playing).did


 
 Did not compared SQ, just noticed the volume difference.


----------



## Duncan

This will be interesting, on a half whim, half curiosity thing, I've ordered the LG hi-fi module to be delivered tomorrow... 

Using a newer iteration of the Sabre DAC (9028), will be fun to see what it can do compared to the DFR... 

Going to use it with my S7E.


----------



## Ymie

Searched for "oneplus 3" in the thread with no success.
  
 Just throwing it out there, whether someone has a op+3 and successfully paired the firefly black with it?
  
 Cheers!


----------



## canali

i'll copy this onto the tidal forum...but it was fun yesterday floating around the office
 sharing the dragonfly red and tidal hifi / ipod with my coworkers...many of them had no idea
 portable music could sound so good


----------



## Muniek66

zolom said:


> Did not compared SQ, just noticed the volume difference.


 
  Thanks for reply!
  
 Maybe someone else had the opportunity to compare quality and signature of sound  in Dragonfly
 Black and Dragonfly Red?


----------



## pkcpga

I tried for a shorter listen, about 20-30 min each the red and black with my Noble savant. I found the red to have less volume, greatly less volume. I also found the red to be brighter with the Noble savant's almost harsh at higher volumes. The red gave a more detailed sound while the blacks were definitely warmer but still nicely detailed. The red sounded thin in the mids almost hollow, the warmer sound of the blacks gave me a better sound stage with deeper lows, fuller mids and friendlier highs. The Reds do have a decent amount more detail in the high mids to highs but for my taste a bit extended and need to be played at very high volumes to gain back lows. This was with my savant's while on my grado gs1000 neither red or black sounded great, both took away a lot of the openness in the grado's sound, black also sounded a bit too bass oriented for me with the grado's and red was way too harsh or too extended of highs with the grado's. I'd suggested trying them with your equipment because they definitely are different and work differently with different equipment and everyone has a different taste. I happily own the blacks and they work well with my IEM's, both nobles and shures.


----------



## Muniek66

pkcpga said:


> I tried for a shorter listen, about 20-30 min each the red and black with my Noble savant. I found the red to have less volume, greatly less volume. I also found the red to be brighter with the Noble savant's almost harsh at higher volumes. The red gave a more detailed sound while the blacks were definitely warmer but still nicely detailed. The red sounded thin in the mids almost hollow, the warmer sound of the blacks gave me a better sound stage with deeper lows, fuller mids and friendlier highs. The Reds do have a decent amount more detail in the high mids to highs but for my taste a bit extended and need to be played at very high volumes to gain back lows. This was with my savant's while on my grado gs1000 neither red or black sounded great, both took away a lot of the openness in the grado's sound, black also sounded a bit too bass oriented for me with the grado's and red was way too harsh or too extended of highs with the grado's. I'd suggested trying them with your equipment because they definitely are different and work differently with different equipment and everyone has a different taste. I happily own the blacks and they work well with my IEM's, both nobles and shures.


 
  
  
 Many thanks for this very informative post!
  
 I like warm playing, I mostly listen rap music, so change from Black (I have it now) to Red probably will not be good upgrade for my preferences. I suppose that the difference in detailness is not large enough that was worth 100$ (the difference in price between the Black and Red).
  
 Can you write a few words about the dynamics of sound in the Red version (compared to Black)? In listening rap music is an important issue.


----------



## canali

i might be trying the venture electronics monks 2.0
 but they're rated @ 300 ohms.
 anyone tried then with the dragonfly red?


----------



## Devodonaldson

I listen to hip hop with the red all the time. Pairs well with my V-moda m100. Clean detail, punchy deep bass. But this what the headphone is known for. The red will enhance whatever sound signature is present in the headphones. I mainly chose the red over black because I know that at some point in the future, I'm going to purchase a much higher impedance headphone.


----------



## WutDaFunk

For the past year, every time I want to listen to music on my home theater setup I would just use the line out from my dragonfly connected to my computer and plug it into the AUX port on the front of my receiver. If I buy a 3.5 to RCA cable and use the audio in RCA ports on the back of the receiver instead, will it make any difference at all?


----------



## duracek

I currently use the black dragonfly and in my opinion it sounds sublime compared to my previous Fiio. Apologies if this has been asked previously but do you think the chord mojo would be a better purchase for me than the red dragonfly. Also welcome to other ideas.


----------



## fjrabon

duracek said:


> I currently use the black dragonfly and in my opinion it sounds sublime compared to my previous Fiio. Apologies if this has been asked previously but do you think the chord mojo would be a better purchase for me than the red dragonfly. Also welcome to other ideas.




The Mojo sounds better by a little bit than the dragonfly red (which to my ears sounds a decent amount better than the black). Mostly comes down to how you're using them. I loved the Mojo, but I personally found it not portable enough to be a portable amp id actually use, and not user friendly enough to be a desktop DAC. Ultimately I found the DFR and the Grace m9XX to be a better solution for the way I used them than the Mojo. But I'll never say anything bad about the sound of the Mojo. It's a superb sounding unit.


----------



## duracek

fjrabon said:


> The Mojo sounds better by a little bit than the dragonfly red (which to my ears sounds a decent amount better than the black). Mostly comes down to how you're using them. I loved the Mojo, but I personally found it not portable enough to be a portable amp id actually use, and not user friendly enough to be a desktop DAC. Ultimately I found the DFR and the Grace m9XX to be a better solution for the way I used them than the Mojo. But I'll never say anything bad about the sound of the Mojo. It's a superb sounding unit.



It is double the price though and your stated benefit was "a little bit". Should I go for it?


----------



## canali

duracek said:


> It is double the price though and your stated benefit was "a little bit". Should I go for it?


 
  
 i hear your struggles, duracek.
 been there...done that.
  
 thing is: we all listen differently, come with different skill sets, too.
  
 i'm not as seasoned as many on here, to be sure...but i splurged for the mojo (have the df red right now)
 the mojo is in the mail.
  
  about the mojo:
 good thing is you can: 
 1/ say that you tried it, and thus can scratch that one off of your audio bucket list..
 and
 2/ can always sell it for not that great a loss, given it's high demand/resale.


----------



## pkcpga

Sorry I don't really listen to rap much, so during the demo I didn't try it on the red. I have listened to the black with jay z Empire State and it sounded great. Sound signature on both are definitely different, for some reason the black was given a warm sound signature and red was given a focus on highs and details. I have a detail oriented Iem so it became harsh with the red while gave it a nice warm sound with the black.


----------



## brent75

duracek said:


> It is double the price though and your stated benefit was "a little bit". Should I go for it?


 
 Actually, it's triple the price.


----------



## estreeter

spidernhan said:


> Then the omission of the 3.5mm jack in newer phones may bode well for future OTG functionality.
> 
> In response to your earlier rant, Apple phones are priced and marketed as premium products which is the market that HTC and Samsung, etc. are competing with. Samsung's lower end models also have issues with OTG support as I'm sure is the case with other companies' cheaper models.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks for your response, and please dont interpret any of this as being confrontational - I've been kicking around here long enough to know how quickly a slight difference of opinion can turn into a thread killer 
  
 To take your last point first, I absolutely agree that I need to spend more time in the main Android thread - I think you'll accept that it's a monster, but such is life. That said, many newcomers to the hobby and DACs like the DFB many consider any failure on the part of a phone/DAC pairing to lay with the device, particularly when audio over USB has been part of the Android kernel since 5.0. I'm happy to move further discussion of Android manufacturer's shortcomings to the other thread and leave this for those of us who are simply enjoying the sound quality of these DACs.
  
 My counterpoint to your claim re the iPhone being a premium product and those willing to spend *DFR money* on a DAC gravitating towards such products is probably summed up best by John Darko in his DFB review:
  
 http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2016/04/go-anywhere-with-audioquests-dragonfly-black/
  
_For the sake of argument, let’s close the AK120 II vs DragonFly Black as too close to call; a matter of personal taste. Now consider this: *a 16Gb iPod Touch sells for US$199. Add CCK (US$29) and DragonFly Black (US$99) *and you’ve a proper portable solution that rivals the Astell&Kern but for US$328 – one fifth of the South Korean unit’s asking._
  
 When I shelled out 'way too much' for the Chord Hugo in 2014, I was pilloried by some on this forum as an idiot but at the time I was thrilled with the end result, particularly as several of the portable DACs I'd previously owned had left me underwhelmed. It was the first time I was able to see the Touch and iPad as worthwhile portable sources, albeit constrained by their lack of expandable storage.  iPhone 6 users may not see Mr Darko's 16GB Touch source recommendation in the same light as their 'carry one device to do it all' uber-phone, but anyone looking to dip their toes into this hobby without spending serious dollars does have the option of buying a device that they KNOW :
  
 - will work with a wide variety of DACs via an Apple-endorsed connector
 - supports a variety of technologies from streaming to Airplay / UPnP / DLNA / Roon etc etc
 - has a reliable resale value even when a new model is announced
  
 I'm not here to sell the iTouch or anything else in Apple's universe, but I've owned pretty much everything except a Mac Pro and had good results from all of them. Add Roon and TIDAL subscriptions to Darko's numbers and you're still well under the purchase price of the iPhone 6 without being overly disadvantaged by the 15 or so GB of storage you'll be presented with when you fire up that Touch for the first time. None of this will sway anyone who insists on 24/192 or DSD on the road, but I just dont see that as the market the DFB is aimed at - YMMV.
  
 Finally, I'll come back to what I said earlier about smartphones - particularly non-iOS smartphones - being disposable technology with a lifespan of 6-12 months max. Head-Fiers may well burn through high-end DAPs at a similar rate, but my experience with various Touch models is that I rarely found myself looking down at the model in my hand and feeling the need  to upgrade. It's a particularly nasty kick in the cojones to read of folk upgrading from one high-end Samsung to another and finding that USB audio didnt work any more : that's patently unacceptable IMO, but I'll take those thoughts to the other thread.
  
 To try to get back on topic, I'll finish with another quote from the redoubtable Mr Darko - after 2 whole weeks (!) with the DFB I'm currently in complete agreement with him.
  
*At US$99 the DragonFly Black is quite possibly the sharpest high street audio bargain available right now. It’s the quintessential everyman hifi product.*


----------



## Devodonaldson

estreeter said:


> Thanks for your response, and please dont interpret any of this as being confrontational - I've been kicking around here long enough to know how quickly a slight difference of opinion can turn into a thread killer
> 
> To take your last point first, I absolutely agree that I need to spend more time in the main Android thread - I think you'll accept that it's a monster, but such is life. That said, many newcomers to the hobby and DACs like the DFB many consider any failure on the part of a phone/DAC pairing to lay with the device, particularly when audio over USB has been part of the Android kernel since 5.0. I'm happy to move further discussion of Android manufacturer's shortcomings to the other thread and leave this for those of us who are simply enjoying the sound quality of these DACs.
> 
> ...


 understand the points you are trying to make, but had every Samsung flagship at some point since the galaxy s3 and usb audio has never been a problem. There are a select few high end devices with issue, but it's rare, on the high end of spectrum of Android phones.


----------



## Duncan

Just received a parcel, so - as they say, let battle commence...


----------



## kelly200269

estreeter said:


> spidernhan said:
> 
> 
> > Then the omission of the 3.5mm jack in newer phones may bode well for future OTG functionality.
> ...




I think what you're trying to say is that an iPod Touch or an iPhone is a perfect companion to a DF, rather than an Android 'phone?
I agree with you completely. I have an Xperia Z5, and bought it for it's audio capabilities. But I've been completely underwhelmed. Yes, it has LDAC BT, and the built-in music player plays high resolution music files natively, but the Bluetooth performance is patchy, it drops-out regularly and using it for music is just a frustrating experience. Especially with the DFR, for which you need an OTG cable, and then you then have to select 'USB Detect' in settings. A complete faff.
Compare that to using a DFR with my iPod Touch 5G 64GB, and it couldn't be easier. Plug in the CCK/DFR and off you go. I love using this combo for my Qobuz music, even in preference to using Qobuz on my NW-ZX2. OK, it might not sound quite as good as the ZX2, but as a user experience via iOS it's much better.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Duncan

Straight away, one interesting thing about the LG, take a look at the DAC bit rate... 



Seems the ESS9028 does what the ESS9016 cannot, high bit rate and low power consumption... 

This is going to be an interesting fight!

(edit to correct DAC part number)


----------



## 0rangutan

fjrabon said:


> The Mojo sounds better by a little bit than the dragonfly red (which to my ears sounds a decent amount better than the black). Mostly comes down to how you're using them. I loved the Mojo, but I personally found it not portable enough to be a portable amp id actually use, and not user friendly enough to be a desktop DAC. Ultimately I found the DFR and the Grace m9XX to be a better solution for the way I used them than the Mojo. But I'll never say anything bad about the sound of the Mojo. It's a superb sounding unit.




Couldn't agree more.
I have been through a very similar journey and ended up selling the Mojo and keeping the Grace M9XX for desktop duties and DFB for portable.
The Mojo was no better than the Grace in the desktop setup, while being less easy to use.
The Mojo sounded a little better than the DFB for portable, but not enough to justify either the extra cost or reduced portability (and certainly not both).


----------



## McCol

duncan said:


> Straight away, one interesting thing about the LG, take a look at the DAC bit rate...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Interested to read your thoughts on these two. I've got B+O Play but tempted to try Dragonfly


----------



## ncristia

How do connect the dragonfly to a DAP ? Would you use a female to female usb through the mini usb? 
 Thank you.


----------



## Duncan

Depends on the DAP (if possible at all) - which one are you looking at?


----------



## ncristia

It's the Shanling M5. It has Coax/Opt and mini usb if that helps.
 Thank you


----------



## SpiderNhan

ncristia said:


> It's the Shanling M5. It has Coax/Opt and mini usb if that helps.
> Thank you



Does the M5 run a modified version of Android OS or Linux? AFAIK, Dragonfly supports Windows, Android, iOS, MacOS, and Linux.


----------



## ncristia

I don't think it runs on  a particular system , rather it has an operating system that you put a mini sd card  in,it reads it and thats it. But I could be  very wrong.


----------



## YtseJamer

The Red is a very good match with the Meze 99 Classics.


----------



## Duncan

mccol said:


> Interested to read your thoughts on these two. I've got B+O Play but tempted to try Dragonfly


Early impressions...

The midrange is the most obvious difference between the two devices, the DFR sounds thin, cold, almost hollow in comparison to the LG, it doesn't end there though. the LG is just out and out more musical - that is what I've been missing (to be fair, I didn't know it until I started using the LG!)... Not good so far for the DFR, add into that that the LG can play back sample rates all the way up to DSD128 natively...



...and, should you wish, upscale...



...and the volume obtainable (not withstanding the problem below) is more usable than that of the DFR, means it looks like the AQ device is in dire trouble.

BUT - the LG implementation of the DAC is useless, that you need to plug in an extension cable (if you have low impedance headphones) to activate the DAC _before_ plugging your 'phones into said cable, to activate the high impedance mode (which is infinitely better than standard mode!) - add into that the volume control, which is iffy at best (UAPP warns you of this):



...and, add in that this is a USB 3.1 device (although there is a USB2 Micro B to USB 3.1 OTG cable included in the box), then it isn't all quite so rosy..

Overall though, my early impressions are that this little DAC and its benefits far outweigh its problems...


----------



## canali

thanks...such a drag that Canada is not (for now) getting the b/o hi fi module...and i thought the US was left out, too.
 however this was a few months back (april?) when i stopped following the lg g5 thread... perhaps things are different now.
  
 Quote:
  


duncan said:


> Early impressions...
> 
> The midrange is the most obvious difference between the two devices, the DFR sounds thin, cold, almost hollow in comparison to the LG, it doesn't end there though. the LG is just out and out more musical - that is what I've been missing (to be fair, I didn't know it until I started using the LG!)... Not good so far for the DFR, add into that that the LG can play back sample rates all the way up to DSD128 natively...
> 
> ...


----------



## McCol

duncan said:


> Early impressions...
> 
> The midrange is the most obvious difference between the two devices, the DFR sounds thin, cold, almost hollow in comparison to the LG, it doesn't end there though. the LG is just out and out more musical - that is what I've been missing (to be fair, I didn't know it until I started using the LG!)... Not good so far for the DFR, add into that that the LG can play back sample rates all the way up to DSD128 natively...
> 
> ...




Thanks for the early impressions. Looks like I'll stick with the G5/B+O play combo.

I had the volume issue but after a software update through the LG friends app this has disappeared.


----------



## canali

unless anything has changed, the LG G5 bang/olufsen hi fi module wasn't coming  to north america.
 which blows...makes no sense given that hi fi dac/amp module dac/amp was one of the only reasons to buy that phone
 and distinguish it from the competition.
  
 ...so hello HTC 10, then, as the default audiophile phone out there also with a separate dac/amp
 hey that would make for another good comparison: htc 10 vs the df black and red.
 but of course your comparison is different given the htc 10's dac/amp can't be used externally like the df and bang / olufsen
  
 wonder where in canada/usa you could buy the b/o dac/amp separately....


----------



## Duncan

canali said:


> unless anything has changed, the LG G5 bang/olufsen hi fi module wasn't coming  to north america.
> which blows...makes no sense given that nodule dac/amp is/was one of the only reasons to buy that phone
> (hello HTC 10, then as the default audiophile phone out there also with a separate dac/amp
> hey that would make for another good comparison: htc 10 vs the df black and red)....


Don't want to derail this away from being a discussion about Dragonflies, however - and this is a funny one, the module specifically doesn't work in the US, and - of all places (considering where LG are based) Korea, with the G5 - how does that make sense?

Thankfully if you don't have a G5, that doesn't really matter, so long as you can get your hands on one!


----------



## canali

duncan said:


> Don't want to derail this away from being a discussion about Dragonflies, however - and this is a funny one, the module specifically doesn't work in the US, and - of all places (considering where LG are based) Korea, with the G5 - how does that make sense?
> 
> Thankfully if you don't have a G5, that doesn't really matter, so long as you can get your hands on one!


 
  
 i hear you...sorry didn't mean to derail...but couldn't resist 
  
 so back to your comparison...what of the black DF with the bang/olufsen...any diff, if you can find one?


----------



## Duncan

canali said:


> i hear you...sorry didn't mean to derail...but couldn't resist
> 
> so back to your comparison...what of the black DF with the bang/olufsen...any diff, if you can find one?


Sorry, I only have the DFR, not the DFB


----------



## estreeter

I'm a broken record on this, but I urge anyone who is unhappy with their initial DF experience (whatever model you have) to try it from a USB hub, preferably powered but even taking the power straight from the USB port on your laptop I'm confident that you'll be surprised by the difference a hub makes. This isnt exactly a discovery - hubs have been touted as an improvement with countless USB DACs prior to the DFB/DFR - but it kills two birds with one stone for very little outlay and that spells 'win' for mine. Not sure about the Red, but the Black definitely improves less-than-perfect music from sources like YouTube out of all proportion to the purchase price.


----------



## Duncan

Interesting - I have a USB OTG cable that allows for the slave device to have its own power - will try this, and see if having the DFR as 'self powered' makes a difference.


----------



## canali

Does this touch upon the area of line and signal conditioning, like iFi's 2.0 or 3.0 usb hubs, 
or the or uptone regen, etc? Would not the jitterbug take care of some of this? I'm no tech person so am probably mistaken.


----------



## Duncan

canali said:


> Does this touch upon the area of line and signal conditioning, like iFi's 2.0 or 3.0 hubs? Would not the jitterbug take care of some of this? I'm no tech person so am probably mistaken.


Quite possibly, I guess I can find out, having the capacity to look at both sides of this.


----------



## indieman

Anyone know of a small USB hub that would work for iOS? I have one but it's an awkward shape. Would be nice to find one that could be "stacked" similar to an amp or something. I still have the df 1.2v so I need a hub


----------



## Duncan

There was a clever USB hub released a few years back, wish I remember what it was called - Dr Wizard, or something like that, where it was self powered, but was able to still allow items that needed 500mw to work on any device...

If I can find it, or remember it's name, I'll post back.


----------



## elvis_presley

0rangutan said:


> For my Sony Z3 Tablet (5.1) the Dragonfly worked without without me having to make any changes.
> 
> My Nexus 5 (6.0) wouldn't work initially but is working now.  I had to go into Developer options (Google "Android enable developer mode" if you haven't already) and change the "Select USB Configuration" option to be "Audio Source".


 
  
 Guys this worked perfectly for me and I'm finally able to use my streamed google music from my one plus one, to my matrix mini portable via a USB OTG.
  
 So much win over youtube music as well.
  
 My only ammendment to the above is after you make the system change on your android device, just reboot it and profit!


----------



## canali

duncan said:


> There was a clever USB hub released a few years back, wish I remember what it was called - Dr Wizard, or something like that, where it was self powered, but was able to still allow items that needed 500mw to work on any device...
> 
> If I can find it, or remember it's name, I'll post back.


 
  
 this?
  
 https://www.bbcdoctorwhoshop.com/store/canada/doctor-who-eleventh-doctor-s-tardis-4-port-usb-hub


----------



## Duncan

canali said:


> this?
> 
> https://www.bbcdoctorwhoshop.com/store/canada/doctor-who-eleventh-doctor-s-tardis-4-port-usb-hub


haha, no it was actually Dr Bott...



Should be quite a few head-fi posts about it


----------



## indieman

duncan said:


> haha, no it was actually Dr Bott...
> 
> 
> 
> Should be quite a few head-fi posts about it



Thanks! I'll try to track one down.


----------



## canali

lmao...thought it was a bit...'weird' for a headfer...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
  
  
 Quote:


duncan said:


> haha, no it was actually Dr Bott...
> 
> 
> 
> Should be quite a few head-fi posts about it


----------



## god-bluff

Double post. sorry


----------



## god-bluff

*Cyrus* have an interesting  rival to the Black, the* soundKey.* Launches on Kickstarter in the next few days.


----------



## canali

god-bluff said:


> *Cyrus* have an interesting  rival to the Black, the* soundKey.* Launches on Kickstarter in the next few days.


 
  
 i'm not sure if it does anything different from what the dragonfly does, however.
  
 http://soundkey.cyrusaudio.com/
  
 http://www.whathifi.com/news/cyrus-turns-to-kickstarter-to-fund-development-its-soundkey-dac
  
 http://www.the-ear.net/news/can-cyrus-soundkey-unlock-mobile-market


----------



## AJTSin

FYI I just received a Magni 2 Uber in the mail. I bought the Uber primarily for vinyl and my HE-400i cans. However out of curiosity I tried running the DF Red as a DAC from my iPhone into the uber. It sounds amazing and the Uber definately can drive the 400i cans louder. The DF works well at 100% volume as a DAC into the Magni. 

It is a very good combo, but I gotta say Vinyl is on a whole other level. 

Love it.


----------



## TheEldestBoy

ajtsin said:


> FYI I just received a Magni 2 Uber in the mail. I bought the Uber primarily for vinyl and my HE-400i cans. However out of curiosity I tried running the DF Red as a DAC from my iPhone into the uber. It sounds amazing and the Uber definately can drive the 400i cans louder. The DF works well at 100% volume as a DAC into the Magni.
> 
> It is a very good combo, but I gotta say Vinyl is on a whole other level.
> 
> Love it.


 
  
  
 Happy to hear this!
  
 My plan is to just get the DF Red and pair it with my iPhone 6S and a set of Sennheiser HD600 or HD650.
  
 However, if I find that the cans need a bit more juice, then I can add a Magni 2 to the mix.
 iPhone 6S > DFR > Magni 2 isn't as portable a set-up as I'd like, but I could deal with it if it would make a significant difference in getting better sound out of the HD600/650.
  
 As the HD600/650 are open-back, I don't ever plan on going portable outside of the home, but I do need the ability to move around the house and change rooms on short notice.  The fact that I can just use my iPhone (as opposed to having to use my laptop) makes this much easier.  The only pain-in-the-ass would be having to lug the Magni 2 along with me and plug it in whatever room I'm in.
  
 This is still easier than having to lug both a Mangi _and_ a Modi 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Very happy to hear that you're getting great sound with this set-up!!!


----------



## fjrabon

ajtsin said:


> FYI I just received a Magni 2 Uber in the mail. I bought the Uber primarily for vinyl and my HE-400i cans. However out of curiosity I tried running the DF Red as a DAC from my iPhone into the uber. It sounds amazing and the Uber definately can drive the 400i cans louder. The DF works well at 100% volume as a DAC into the Magni.
> 
> It is a very good combo, but I gotta say Vinyl is on a whole other level.
> 
> Love it.




Wait, you max out the DFR with your HE400i?!?! I'm almost never above 60%. 100% on that setup is "can't even touch my ears to them" loud.


----------



## SpiderNhan

fjrabon said:


> Wait, you max out the DFR with your HE400i?!?! I'm almost never above 60%. 100% on that setup is "can't even touch my ears to them" loud.



You max out the DFR to run it as a line-out into an amp. The volume into headphones is controlled by the Magni.


----------



## fjrabon

spidernhan said:


> You max out the DFR to run it as a line-out into an amp. The volume into headphones is controlled by the Magni.




I was going off your comment "the Magni drives the He400i louder"


----------



## ChrisSC

estreeter said:


> I'm a broken record on this, but I urge anyone who is unhappy with their initial DF experience (whatever model you have) to try it from a USB hub, preferably powered but even taking the power straight from the USB port on your laptop I'm confident that you'll be surprised by the difference a hub makes. This isnt exactly a discovery - hubs have been touted as an improvement with countless USB DACs prior to the DFB/DFR - but it kills two birds with one stone for very little outlay and that spells 'win' for mine. Not sure about the Red, but the Black definitely improves less-than-perfect music from sources like YouTube out of all proportion to the purchase price.




Is there a greater improvement throwing the usb into the equation when you use low impedance iems or high impedance or will either type yield similar sonic benefits with a powered hub? (sorry- I don't have the engineering background that a lot of head-fi'ers around these parts possess )


----------



## Mund1

New guy here, haven't been to the site in a while. 
  
 Well, through the course of the past few days... I have read much of this thread!
  
 I just bought a DFR with an Audioquest Golden Gate 1/8 to 1/8 for my MBP to Marshall (guitar amp maker) Woburn (speaker system). I got this set up on my MBP as stated in the DFR Manual. The sound initially was, OK. Not overly thrilled.  I tried the headphones I have, ATH-M50x, I know, nothing fancy anyway, but same thing; not too thrilled.
  
 This stuff was delivered on Saturday.  As I prepped my Samsung S5 using the Audioquest Android cable, grabbing the DFR, and heading out for a 3 hour road trip with my son, 15 min in, he put his headphones on, 20 min in, I pulled the plug on the DFR with Android cable out of my S5 and plugged directly into the 1/8 jack of my vehicle from the 1/8 headphone jack of the S5 as we have been doing.  The DFR sounded bad, intermittent pops, and low volume using Tidal HiFi.  Huge disappointment. But I covered the why, here....  I need to decide what to do.
  
 I will say this, having the DFR on my MBP, connected to my Marshall Woburn desktop speaker.. the more I listen, the more sweeter it sounds... if I keep the DFR, it's for this purpose alone.  I probably have 12-14 hours of listening time in thus far, it's set up on my desk.  It seems to get better sounding as time progresses... they are all new, the Marshall Woburn, the DFR, the Golden Gate cable....


----------



## canali

hi Mundi1
  
 (referring to emboldened)
  
 yes...slight burn in is needed for DF...see a link from AQ that i posted a few pages back.
 approx only 24 hrs to tame things.
*http://www.head-fi.org/t/805832/new-dragonfly-black-and-red-discussion/585*
  *post # 600*
  
 Quote:


mund1 said:


> New guy here, haven't been to the site in a while.
> 
> Well, through the course of the past few days... I have read much of this thread!
> 
> ...


----------



## Devodonaldson

mund1 said:


> New guy here, haven't been to the site in a while.
> 
> Well, through the course of the past few days... I have read much of this thread!
> 
> ...


 
Hey man, welcome to the thread. Ok, I'm going to speak solely for your galaxy s5. Download the trial of usb audio player pro. Through that app connect to Tidal, set the hardware volume at about 70% and turn down the player volume. Start your FLAC music and gradually turn up the volume. Volume is completely different, and sound quality is majorly different. The reds digital volume control is not playing nice with Android drivers at the moment. In addition, the android drivers are negatively affecting the output to any DAC connected to an Android device. UAPP app, as well as Onkyo Hf player use their own drivers to bring the best out of your dac. For Tidal streaming, UAPP is the only way to go. Try that and report back with thoughts or any questions. It's worth the price once you get passed the trial. Happy listening


----------



## zolom

The paint job on my DFB had started to chip, although I keep it protected.  
 Other than that its a GREAT gadget


----------



## Mund1

canali said:


>


 

 I read this, I concur; I have witnessed the same thus far. Just last night I ran it all night with a some varying ranges of RUSH 2112 album on repeat.  Thank You for bringing to my attention.


----------



## Mund1

devodonaldson said:


> Hey man, welcome to the thread. Ok, I'm going to speak solely for your galaxy s5. Download the trial of usb audio player pro. Through that app connect to Tidal, set the hardware volume at about 70% and turn down the player volume. Start your FLAC music and gradually turn up the volume. Volume is completely different, and sound quality is majorly different. The reds digital volume control is not playing nice with Android drivers at the moment. In addition, the android drivers are negatively affecting the output to any DAC connected to an Android device. UAPP app, as well as Onkyo Hf player use their own drivers to bring the best out of your dac. For Tidal streaming, UAPP is the only way to go. Try that and report back with thoughts or any questions. It's worth the price once you get passed the trial. Happy listening


 

 I have seen this info repeated, haven't downloaded the app yet, but did not see a trial version.  I believe the cost was $7.99 from the Play Store. I may do this eve., not fully understanding how they tie in to one another. But certain I will figure it out.  Thank You.


----------



## calpiyuki

Anyone here finds their se846 sound thin using dfr? I am using the blue filter setup for 846s


----------



## SpiderNhan

mund1 said:


> I have seen this info repeated, haven't downloaded the app yet, but did not see a trial version.  I believe the cost was $7.99 from the Play Store. I may do this eve., not fully understanding how they tie in to one another. But certain I will figure it out.  Thank You.


 
 The trial isn't available through the Play Store. You can find the link here.

 http://www.extreamsd.com/index.php/uapp-trial


----------



## Rubber Soul

I just Went for the DF Black to go with my AKG K550. Out of the box, first thing that stroke me was the high output volume. The computer main volume was set to 5 of 100, heck, I even Heard sound at zero! Next I found the bass a bit boomy. I tried it on my Sennheiser HD650 just for fun. To my surprise they worked very well to these Power hungry cans. They were dynamic and had a good soundstage wich I didn´t expected. I will let them burn in now to see how it (or if it is my brain...) will improve. I used to have the HRT MicroStreamer wich was a very good match for the 550s. So far I prefer HRT to the 550s, but I Think the DF will improve. 
 /Chris


----------



## TheEldestBoy

rubber soul said:


> I just Went for the DF Black to go with my AKG K550. Out of the box, first thing that stroke me was the high output volume. The computer main volume was set to 5 of 100, heck, I even Heard sound at zero! Next I found the bass a bit boomy. I tried it on my Sennheiser HD650 just for fun. To my surprise they worked very well to these Power hungry cans. They were dynamic and had a good soundstage wich I didn´t expected. I will let them burn in now to see how it (or if it is my brain...) will improve. I used to have the HRT MicroStreamer wich was a very good match for the 550s. So far I prefer HRT to the 550s, but I Think the DF will improve.
> /Chris


 
  
  
 I'm VERY curious to hear what your impressions are with the DFB driving the Sennheiser HD650, after the DFB burns-in a bit more.
  
 PLEASE post your findings!


----------



## Rubber Soul

theeldestboy said:


> I'm VERY curious to hear what your impressions are with the DFB driving the Sennheiser HD650, after the DFB burns-in a bit more.
> 
> PLEASE post your findings!


 

 I will! So far it sounds very promising with the HD650! I guess the red should be even more suitable to HD650.


----------



## TheEldestBoy

rubber soul said:


> I will! So far it sounds very promising with the HD650! I guess the red should be even more suitable to HD650.





I plan on getting the Red, and a set of HD 600 or HD 650. So, I'm very curious to hear what you think!


----------



## calpiyuki

I will be waiting for someone who has se846 paired with DFR to leave some review


----------



## Mund1

A novice on this stuff, I didn't know what a DAC was a couple of weeks ago.  
  
 As an Android user (Samsung Galaxy s5) who found out the hard way of the incompatibility of the DFR with my phone, by using it. Why can't the issue be addressed in another way, using the 1/8 headphone jack?______ 
  
 I may be way off here, correct me if I am, I can take it.  But, why not a 1/8 Male to USB Female to accommodate the DF ?
  
 ... as I search, I don't think it exists.  Technology or throughput wouldn't allow it to flow that way, would it.


----------



## Torq

mund1 said:


> A novice on this stuff, I didn't know what a DAC was a couple of weeks ago.
> 
> As an Android user (Samsung Galaxy s5) who found out the hard way of the incompatibility of the DFR with my phone, by using it. Why can't the issue be addressed in another way, using the 1/8 headphone jack?______
> 
> ...


 
  
 The 1/8" (3.5mm) headphone jack is an analog output.  The digital-to-analog conversion has already occurred within the phone before it even gets to the headphone output, so there'd be nothing left for the DFR to do and, consequently, no point in buying one.
  
 There's only so much a manufacturer can do when dealing with the myriad issues that are the Android Audio stack.  It really needs a complete overhaul, but I don't see that happening.


----------



## Mund1

torq said:


> The 1/8" (3.5mm) headphone jack is an analog output.  The digital-to-analog conversion has already occurred within the phone before it even gets to the headphone output, so there'd be nothing left for the DFR to do and, consequently, no point in buying one.
> 
> There's only so much a manufacturer can do when dealing with the myriad issues that are the Android Audio stack.  It really needs a complete overhaul, but I don't see that happening.


 

 Ahhh Thank You for the explanation.  Makes sense.


----------



## AJTSin

spidernhan said:


> You max out the DFR to run it as a line-out into an amp. The volume into headphones is controlled by the Magni.




Exactly. 



fjrabon said:


> I was going off your comment "the Magni drives the He400i louder"




I am not neccesarily listening louder but the Magni can get much louder with no distortion. I find when I turn the Dragonfly to 80-90% on an iPhone it starts to add distortion. 

I comfortably listen at 70-80% maybe I am deaf?


----------



## Mund1

I know this site is about headphones, having & achieving the best sound, quality, etc.  Curious about DAC use, proper use of it.
  
 I do listen to headphones as stated before, nothing fancy or costly at this point, Audio Technica ATH-M50x, I also had a set of Westone 3's for a few years.  I like what I see with the Sennheiser HD 600, 650's and will eventually do a listen/purchase. 
  
  
 However, are any of you using your DFR or DFB with a powered speaker as well?________  
  
 Any Advantages / Disadvantages using with a powered speaker as I have set up here?_______
 (Marshall Woburn speaker, Audioquest Golden Gate, DFR) 
 http://www.marshallheadphones.com/mh_us_en/speakers/loudest/woburn-black


----------



## Devodonaldson

mund1 said:


> I know this site is about headphones, having & achieving the best sound, quality, etc.  Curious about DAC use, proper use of it.
> 
> I do listen to headphones as stated before, nothing fancy or costly at this point, Audio Technica ATH-M50x, I also had a set of Westone 3's for a few years.  I like what I see with the Sennheiser HD 600, 650's and will eventually do a listen/purchase.
> 
> ...



The point of the DFR or any dac is to achieve the cleanest audio output possible. Doesn't matter what you connect it to, will be an upgrade in quality over the dac in your laptop or phone. You are taking the processing out of the hands of a device that is handling multiple tasks, and placing in the hands of a device, with much better components, which has the singular duty of converting the digital signal to analog


----------



## Duncan

ajtsin said:


> Exactly.
> I am not neccesarily listening louder but the Magni can get much louder with no distortion. I find when I turn the Dragonfly to 80-90% on an iPhone it starts to add distortion.
> 
> I comfortably listen at 70-80% maybe I am deaf?


agreed re distortion (found out the hard way that(I'm guessing) the S7E led view cover screws around with the volume control occasionally, so the more I tried to turn the volume down the more it went up (both up and down buttons act as up!) 

Could be worse, my initial praise for the LG is starting to diminish. I still believe it sounds better than the DFR, but the volume control issue and also there's fact that it on occasion locks up my phone after connecting, not good!


----------



## waynes world

devodonaldson said:


> Hey man, welcome to the thread. Ok, I'm going to speak solely for your galaxy s5. Download the trial of usb audio player pro. Through that app connect to Tidal, set the hardware volume at about 70% and turn down the player volume. Start your FLAC music and gradually turn up the volume. Volume is completely different, and sound quality is majorly different. The reds digital volume control is not playing nice with Android drivers at the moment. In addition, the android drivers are negatively affecting the output to any DAC connected to an Android device. UAPP app, as well as Onkyo Hf player use their own drivers to bring the best out of your dac. For Tidal streaming, UAPP is the only way to go. Try that and report back with thoughts or any questions. It's worth the price once you get passed the trial. Happy listening




Excellent advice. Largely applies to the zuperdac as well.


----------



## slackerpo

elvis_presley said:


> Guys this worked perfectly for me and I'm finally able to use my streamed google music from my one plus one, to my matrix mini portable via a USB OTG.
> 
> So much win over youtube music as well.
> 
> My only ammendment to the above is after you make the system change on your android device, just reboot it and profit!


 
  
 so would you say the "volume" issues with android are gone with that set up?


----------



## estreeter

chrissc said:


> Is there a greater improvement throwing the usb into the equation when you use low impedance iems or high impedance or will either type yield similar sonic benefits with a powered hub? (sorry- I don't have the engineering background that a lot of head-fi'ers around these parts possess
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Ok Chris, at the risk of appearing to sit on the fence here I have to preface what I'm about to say with a warning re *placebo*. I dont think any of us are completely immune from its effects, and I far prefer to give gear impressions after several months vs several days of use for that reason. If the hub IS placebo, then its impact definitely lasts a lot longer than any other cheap gadget I've encountered and it seems to work with every USB DAC I've owned. I'm also not the only music lover who has good things to say about this very cheap - and versatile - addition to a laptop/tablet (check the Computer Audiophile forums).
  
 As to which cans will benefit, I have such a modest 'collection' atm that I cant make any claims re IEMs (my Shure SE425s get very little use and I've never been a fan of the lack of soundstage inherent in the design) or high impedance fullsize cans (neither my Philips Cityscape nor Beats Solo2 on-ears are hard to drive). When I sold off my gear last year I swore I wasnt going to get back to the point where I had to spend hours comparing a dozen different combinations in total silence to find 'the best' anything, but I fear that I'm back at the point where I need a decent open headphone (think AD900X or Fidelio X2, not HD800) to make any worthwhile comparisons with the experience I get with my portable cans. Its not about 'audiophile cred' - its an acknowledgement that fun cans may not accurately reflect the strengths of something like the DFB, even if I still maintain that my on-ears are EXACTLY where the DFB is aimed. Getting the DAC away from its vulnerable default position - poking out the side of your device - is a major plus for mine, but YMMV. Dragontail+Jiitterbug+hub is a combination I'd be very keen to try, even with a DAC as modestly priced as the DFB - if anything, this is the end of the DAC spectrum which stands to gain the most from improvements to the USB output of our electrically noisy sources.
  
 I'll finish with the most important part of my initial recommendation - *even if the hub does absolutely nothing for you, you still have a device that cost you minimal $ and has other applications beyond listening to music. *Given that many laptops and tablets come with one or two USB 3.0 ports at most, a USB 3.0 hub is particularly handy. If you elect to give it a shot, I'd be interested in your impressions, be they positive or negative - all I ask is that you try leaving your DAC plugged into the hub for 24 hours before commenting.
  
 Cheers,
  
 estreeter


----------



## canali

Estreeter...isn't this related to signal/line conditioning...something that you'd get from the jitterbug...or from IFi's nano or micro iusb 2.0 or newer 3.0?
  
 and to your poin, my tube amp make (lloyd peppard of mapletree) did say something about a hub (even a cheaper one) having positive effects on signal.
 wish I could find his email...i might write him even on this and report back later.
  
 Quote:


estreeter said:


> Ok Chris, at the risk of appearing to sit on the fence here I have to preface what I'm about to say with a warning re *placebo*. I dont think any of us are completely immune from its effects, and I far prefer to give gear impressions after several months vs several days of use for that reason. If the hub IS placebo, then its impact definitely lasts a lot longer than any other cheap gadget I've encountered and it seems to work with every USB DAC I've owned. I'm also not the only music lover who has good things to say about this very cheap - and versatile - addition to a laptop/tablet (check the Computer Audiophile forums).
> 
> As to which cans will benefit, I have such a modest 'collection' atm that I cant make any claims re IEMs (my Shure SE425s get very little use and I've never been a fan of the lack of soundstage inherent in the design) or high impedance fullsize cans (neither my Philips Cityscape nor Beats Solo2 on-ears are hard to drive). When I sold off my gear last year I swore I wasnt going to get back to the point where I had to spend hours comparing a dozen different combinations in total silence to find 'the best' anything, but I fear that I'm back at the point where I need a decent open headphone (think AD900X or Fidelio X2, not HD800) to make any worthwhile comparisons with the experience I get with my portable cans. Its not about 'audiophile cred' - its an acknowledgement that fun cans may not accurately reflect the strengths of something like the DFB, even if I still maintain that my on-ears are EXACTLY where the DFB is aimed. Getting the DAC away from its vulnerable default position - poking out the side of your device - is a major plus for mine, but YMMV. Dragontail+Jiitterbug+hub is a combination I'd be very keen to try, even with a DAC as modestly priced as the DFB - if anything, this is the end of the DAC spectrum which stands to gain the most from improvements to the USB output of our electrically noisy sources.
> 
> ...


----------



## estreeter

While I'm hammering this keyboard, can I ask if anyone else here is *using their DFB from Linux ?*
  
 Having spent more time with different players and video apps like VLC, I'm convnced that the linux sound architecture (presumably ALSA as I havent changed any of the settings) is more forgiving of the high gain on the DFB - I can slide the OS volume control without having to worry about inadvertently blasting my ears. It's not a 2x improvement - think '6' instead of '4' - but its definitely an improvement over Windows IME. I dont want to drag this thread into an operating system debate - just putting it out there for those who have access to non-Windows machines.
  
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Linux_Sound_Architecture


----------



## Mund1

waynes world said:


> Excellent advice. Largely applies to the zuperdac as well.


 

 Well taken.. this entire thread is educating. Learned/learning a lot.


----------



## Rubber Soul

theeldestboy said:


> I plan on getting the Red, and a set of HD 600 or HD 650. So, I'm very curious to hear what you think!


 

 Now the DF Black have been running for almost the recommended 24 h and the boominess and boxiness I first experienced with the AKG K550 is all gone. Now it´s a nice PRaT and insight to the Music, almost like being in the studio. And with the HD 650, wich I didn´t intend to pair the DFB with in the first Place, they work fine. The Sennheisers can sound flat and boring without proper amplifacition but with the DFB the Dynamics is there and the soundstage is wide. When I push the volume I can here them being a bit strained, but again, this is the Black, with the Red I Think you should be pretty safe. IMO etc.


----------



## ristokoo

theeldestboy said:


> I plan on getting the Red, and a set of HD 600 or HD 650. So, I'm very curious to hear what you think!



 

I've had the Sennheiser HD 650 for a couple of years now and I'm very happy with them. The reviews they get are there for a reason. I got the DragonFly Red about a month ago and I've found it to be an excellent pair with the HD 650. Great sound, great portability. 

I use an LG G3, Samsung Galaxy Tab S, and occasionally Samsung Galaxy S3 phone and a Windows laptop. They all work fine. Naturally Android devices need the UAPP app to make use of the DFR.


----------



## TheEldestBoy

rubber soul said:


> Now the DF Black have been running for almost the recommended 24 h and the boominess and boxiness I first experienced with the AKG K550 is all gone. Now it´s a nice PRaT and insight to the Music, almost like being in the studio. And with the HD 650, wich I didn´t intend to pair the DFB with in the first Place, they work fine. The Sennheisers can sound flat and boring without proper amplifacition but with the DFB the Dynamics is there and the soundstage is wide. When I push the volume I can here them being a bit strained, but again, this is the Black, with the Red I Think you should be pretty safe. IMO etc.


 
  
  
 Thanks for the update Rubber Soul.
  
 What set-up do you usually use to drive your HD 650s?  How does the DFB compare to that set-up?  
  
 Is there a big difference b/w what you usually use and the DFB (other than the DFB lacking a bit of power)?


----------



## TheEldestBoy

ristokoo said:


> theeldestboy said:
> 
> 
> > I plan on getting the Red, and a set of HD 600 or HD 650. So, I'm very curious to hear what you think!
> ...


 
  
  
 Thanks for the info ristokoo.
  
 What set-up do you usually use to drive your HD 650s (in terms of DAC and AMP)?
 How does the DFR compare to that set-up?


----------



## Rubber Soul

theeldestboy said:


> Thanks for the update Rubber Soul.
> 
> What set-up do you usually use to drive your HD 650s?  How does the DFB compare to that set-up?
> 
> Is there a big difference b/w what you usually use and the DFB (other than the DFB lacking a bit of power)?


 

 I usually drive the HD650 with a dedicated amp, Musical Fidelity X-can v2 (see my avatar). They sound slightly fuller and with a tad wider soundstage and, of course, more effortless when driven at high volumes. But the DFB do surprisingly well and with the volume set at about 40 percent om my iPhone the listening volume is just enough for me. I don´t miss much and, even if I didn´t plan to, I will use the DFB when the x-can isn´t around. The red with even more juice will certainly be a safe bet.
 I don´t Think the difference is that big, and the Dynamics and all the details are there.


----------



## ristokoo

theeldestboy said:


> Thanks for the info ristokoo.
> 
> What set-up do you usually use to drive your HD 650s (in terms of DAC and AMP)?
> How does the DFR compare to that set-up?



 

My desktop setup is ObjectiveDAC/Objective2 amp. Rubber Soul answered you regarding his gear, and my experience with mine is pretty much the same.

The DFR lacks some power compared to the O2 amp of course but it still is powerful enough to drive the HD 650. And the portability is a huge bonus for me. The HD 650 is something you want to use in a quiet room. And other people likely don't want to be in the same room with the person using them


----------



## TheEldestBoy

rubber soul said:


> I usually drive the HD650 with a dedicated amp, Musical Fidelity X-can v2 (see my avatar). They sound slightly fuller and with a tad wider soundstage and, of course, more effortless when driven at high volumes. But the DFB do surprisingly well and with the volume set at about 40 percent om my iPhone the listening volume is just enough for me. I don´t miss much and, even if I didn´t plan to, I will use the DFB when the x-can isn´t around. The red with even more juice will certainly be a safe bet.
> I don´t Think the difference is that big, and the Dynamics and all the details are there.


 
  
  
  



> My desktop setup is ObjectiveDAC/Objective2 amp. Rubber Soul answered you regarding his gear, and my experience with mine is pretty much the same.
> 
> The DFR lacks some power compared to the O2 amp of course but it still is powerful enough to drive the HD 650. And the portability is a huge bonus for me. The HD 650 is something you want to use in a quiet room. And other people likely don't want to be in the same room with the person using them


 
  
  
  
 So, compared to using a more powerful desktop amp, the DFB and the DFR make the HD 650 sound _slightly_ less full and have a _tad_ narrower soundstage (the DFR will likely do a better job than the DFB though).
  
 I'm okay with that, as I plan to eventually upgrade from the DFR to a more powerful desktop amp (maybe even something with tubes!). 
  
 It sounds like the DFR will get me most of the way there, and then I can upgrade later to a better amp to push the HD 650's to their max potential. (This will give me something to work towards and something else to obsess about here on the Head Fi forums 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  
 Thanks for the info guys!


----------



## Rubber Soul

theeldestboy said:


> So, compared to using a more powerful desktop amp, the DFB and the DFR make the HD 650 sound _slightly_ less full and have a _tad_ narrower soundstage (the DFR will likely do a better job than the DFB though).
> 
> I'm okay with that, as I plan to eventually upgrade from the DFR to a more powerful desktop amp (maybe even something with tubes!).
> 
> ...


 

 You´re welcome! And I forgot to mention that I connected the DFB to my x-can and the DFB is truly an excellent dac. So if you later will upgrade to a more powerful desktop amp, you will still have a good use of the DFB as an excellent dac. Good luck and enjoy this nice combination!


----------



## anhtuanrena

I have just received my RED yesterday, I bought it after read some reviews on the net. The first impression when I play the first song from my set up(iPhone 6+->dragon fly red-> oriveti primacy) is wow. It's so much better than the 1.2 I have sold not long ago. The sound compare to the straight-out of the iPhone is way better. High is much more open, bass is way way more detail, I listen some of
 my favorite songs from 8pm till 2am next day, forgot sleeping . Compared to the mojo the REd is less detail and a little warm but it make your Low bit rate on iPhone much more easy to the ear and more fun, not as transparent as the mojo. Comfortable? The red is way better to carry than the mojo. The mojo is on the real side, what you hear is what you get, if your record low quality you can't not enjoy it, the RED is different, much more enjoyable. But when to come to hires, mojo on it own level, a notch higher than the RED. The AK Jr can't compete with the red on sound quality. Combine with smooth as silk interface on iPhone, I have no need to buy another dap to enjoy music on the go without compromise the sound quality. That's all, buy it with confident, you can't go wrong with the red.


----------



## kelly200269

Using the DFR with an iDevice is a dream. It just works, and is so portable too. 

Sent from my E6653 using Tapatalk


----------



## fjrabon

kelly200269 said:


> Using the DFR with an iDevice is a dream. It just works, and is so portable too.
> 
> Sent from my E6653 using Tapatalk




Absolutely agree. I've eschewed portable amps my whole life. Loved their sound but just never would actually use them because of the added hassle and bulk, always just plugged my headphones straight into my phone or DAP. DFR changed all that. Plug and play with a CCK + no battery to charge is a dream.


----------



## kelly200269

fjrabon said:


> kelly200269 said:
> 
> 
> > Using the DFR with an iDevice is a dream. It just works, and is so portable too.
> ...



I agree. Although I just love the sound my NWZ-A15/Hugo can produce, it's just too cumbersome for on -the -go.

Sent from my E6653 using Tapatalk


----------



## kelly200269

Has anyone tried using a Jitterbug with their iDevice/CCK/DFR?
Any good? And if so, is it worth the extra bulk/battery drain?

Sent from my E6653 using Tapatalk


----------



## anhtuanrena

kelly200269 said:


> Has anyone tried using a Jitterbug with their iDevice/CCK/DFR?
> Any good? And if so, is it worth the extra bulk/battery drain?
> 
> Sent from my E6653 using Tapatalk


 so do I. Really curious about how it sound when jitterbug kick in


----------



## canali

hmmmm...interesting....
  
*apple interested in buying tidal?*
  
http://www.techradar.com/news/audio/why-apple-buying-tidal-would-make-sense-1324226
  
http://www.techradar.com/news/audio/apple-s-rumored-acquisition-of-tidal-could-be-further-evidence-of-its-hi-res-audio-ambitions-1324253
  
http://www.bloomberg.com/gadfly/articles/2016-07-01/music-labels-need-to-fear-apple-s-love-for-jay-z


----------



## notfitforpublic

Quote:


canali said:


> hmmmm...interesting....
> 
> *apple interested in buying tidal?*
> 
> ...


 
  
 Apple has been threatening to bring lossless music to iTunes for ever. Now they're saying next year will be the last for the iTunes music store for downloadable content. Guess they're looking to kill 2 birds with one stone.


----------



## stuck limo

notfitforpublic said:


> Now they're saying next year will be the last for the iTunes music store for downloadable content.


 
  
 I do not believe this.


----------



## fjrabon

kelly200269 said:


> Has anyone tried using a Jitterbug with their iDevice/CCK/DFR?
> Any good? And if so, is it worth the extra bulk/battery drain?
> 
> Sent from my E6653 using Tapatalk




I do. It depends. If I'm walking the dog or doing laundry I don't hook up the jitterbug most of the time. If I'm going to Starbucks or to sit in the park I'll hook it in the chain. It doesn't add much bulk and it does help smooth the sound a bit.


----------



## notfitforpublic

stuck limo said:


> I do not believe this.



Ya not sure if I buy all the reports either, but they've made dumber moves in the last few years so I'm not holding my breath


----------



## SomeGuyDude

notfitforpublic said:


> Ya not sure if I buy all the reports either, but they've made dumber moves in the last few years so I'm not holding my breath


 
  
 it's a weird move. I can imagine them sort of "phasing out" the iTunes store as the primary product, but it makes no sense that if all the music is already sitting on all the servers why they'd stop people from a la cart selecting, unless they really, really want to try and force people into the subscription service but that's a stupid idea. they'd be better served offering a free service at 64kbps with ads to entice people to come in. Though TBH I'd like to see Apple music with Tidal's interface because iTunes is hot garbage.
  
 As for the DFR, what can I say but awwwwwwwyeah. Upgrade from the 1.2 and I love it. Louder and clearer than the 1.2 with all the phones I've tried so far. I listen to metal and I listen loud, and this is enough coming off my work laptop with VModa M100s:


----------



## pkcpga

Not sure apple will be able to cut its downloadable music that easy or quickly, they may want to but they are reports that iTunes has contracts with places like The Vioce for single song sales through 2018. So I think phasing that aspect out will take longer and it seems to be profitable for them verse their current subscription music.


----------



## CFGamescape

I replaced at home my seldom-used Schiit stack (Bifrost MB + Lyr 2) + iFi nano iUSB3.0 (using Nordost Blue Heaven USB cable + iFi Gemini cable) with this simple setup and I'm super impressed:
  

  
 This is mostly to use on-the-go with my iPhone, but it's so flexible and small that I think it'll do just fine for when I use my desktop PC. For how little I use my home PC, I'm not missing the crazy elaborate (and expensive [to me]) chain I had before.


----------



## estreeter

cfgamescape said:


> I replaced at home my seldom-used Schiit stack (Bifrost MB + Lyr 2) + iFi nano iUSB3.0 (using Nordost Blue Heaven USB cable + iFi Gemini cable) with this simple setup and I'm super impressed:
> 
> 
> 
> This is mostly to use on-the-go with my iPhone, but it's so flexible and small that I think it'll do just fine for when I use my desktop PC. For how little I use my home PC, I'm not missing the crazy elaborate (and expensive [to me]) chain I had before.


 
  
 Ok, I may be reading too much into your post, but there appears to be some serious _new toy joy_ at work here, at least given how highly some Head-Fiers rate the Bimby. Would be interesting to hear your impressions of both DACs into the Lyr a month or so from now.


----------



## CFGamescape

estreeter said:


> Ok, I may be reading too much into your post, but there appears to be some serious _new toy joy_ at work here, at least given how highly some Head-Fiers rate the Bimby. Would be interesting to hear your impressions of both DACs into the Lyr a month or so from now.




The Bimby + Lyr 2 (with good tubes) is better. But I never used it enough to justify how much I paid for it. Imaging, and detail retrieval better than DF Red, and it sounds more natural. Because my work setup (iFi iDSD + iCAN SE) really, really competes with my Schiit stack, and since I listen to music 90% of the time at work, I decided to sell Schiit. 

But I still needed audio for both home and on-the-go. I wasn't expecting too much from the DF Red after being disappointed with the DF Black (too dark, muddy for me and what I'm used to).

However, it has pleasantly surprised me. While not better than my Schiit stack or iFi stack, the DF Red really has good imaging and detail retrieval for something that's tiny and $200.

All these elements come into play when I say "super impressed." Maybe I'm still in the honeymoon stage but I'm happy with the purchase given my particular scenario and need. It drives my Ether C well. 

Hope this clarifies a bit more. My impressions are totally subjective and probably flawed, and I'm not afraid to admit it .


----------



## myemaildw

ye ive heard dr red on friday in shop, ye what a nice dac, even oppo ha2 is **** in comparison to dr red, hm makes you question all the bs reviews on headfi, its best dac ive heard untill now, i will buy drf red next week hihi, hope i will anyway


----------



## estreeter

myemaildw said:


> ye ive heard dr red on friday in shop, ye what a nice dac, even oppo ha2 is **** in comparison to dr red, hm makes you question all the bs reviews on headfi, its best dac ive heard untill now, i will buy drf red next week hihi, hope i will anyway


 
  
 If there is one commonality among DAC impressions, here and elsewhere, its that *one man's passion is another's poison *: even more so than it was with the amp obsession when I joined Head-Fi. The other question you have to ask is 'Will I have anything resembling the reviewer's experience given the difference between their partnering equipment and mine ?'. Some very credible amp designers have good things to say about the amp section of the HA-2 and these arent folks prone to getting caught up in FOTM madness, but you only have to read the wildly differing impressions of Benchmark's DACs to know that the DAC designers job is even harder in terms of making most of the people happy most of the time. The only surety for me is that relying on impressions gained in anything under a month is fraught with peril - there are just too many factors to consider Say what you will about pro reviewers but (Mike Mercer aside) they dont usually sprint to their computers to post a glowing set of impressions of something they've spent minimal time with (show reports notwithstanding, and a lot of that is the jet lag talking !). I've just never seen much point in sending something back within a few days of receiving it so you can get the money back from Amazon to buy the next toy, but that might be a generational thing.


----------



## koven

hi guys, portability aside, what is the consensus on schiit stack vs DFR? anyone make the switch?


----------



## HiFiGuy528

estreeter said:


> If there is one commonality among DAC impressions, here and elsewhere, its that *one man's passion is another's poison *: even more so than it was with the amp obsession when I joined Head-Fi. The other question you have to ask is 'Will I have anything resembling the reviewer's experience given the difference between their partnering equipment and mine ?'. Some very credible amp designers have good things to say about the amp section of the HA-2 and these arent folks prone to getting caught up in FOTM madness, but you only have to read the wildly differing impressions of Benchmark's DACs to know that the DAC designers job is even harder in terms of making most of the people happy most of the time. The only surety for me is that relying on impressions gained in anything under a month is fraught with peril - there are just too many factors to consider Say what you will about pro reviewers but (Mike Mercer aside) *they dont usually sprint to their computers to post a glowing set of impressions of something they've spent minimal time with* (show reports notwithstanding, and a lot of that is the jet lag talking !). I've just never seen much point in sending something back within a few days of receiving it so you can get the money back from Amazon to buy the next toy, but that might be a generational thing.


 
  
 + 1 On review loaners, I typically ask for 45–90 days. You need to live with the gear...
  
 I bought DF blk & Red on Amazon a week ago. Will report back with my findings after some quality ear time. I own every DF model...


----------



## estreeter

@HiFiGuy528, I look forward to those impressions, particularly as you have the earlier models as a frame of reference.


----------



## myemaildw

so i bought the df red dac, its very nice. also heard fiio x7 dap what a sound, makes you realise that its pointless to buy a good headphones and using it with iphone cause its just not as good dac. ive actually listened to lots of dacs. i heard astell and kern dap its just ask ***** as ak10 dac i had and ak likes really slow volume wheel. oppo ha2 also kinda disapointment for price, df red is better than oppo ha2 dac. also heard fiio x3 also ***** amlost like iphone audio quality. fiio x7 is better than df red its its very good. df red is between fiio x7 dap and zuperdac. and zuperdac is between df red and iphone.
but ye fiio x7 is expensive. but fiio needs to make ios dac i dont like daps cause no apps but its nice


----------



## Moonparty

Hey guys
  
 Thought I would post my impressions of the Dragonfly red, oppo and chord mojo on a iphone 6plus. I've tested these on a pair of SE846's and B&W p5 headphones. I've owned all of these dacs before sending them back and have spent alot of time testing them against the headphone jack on the iphone.
  
 The chord mojo is probably the best followed by the oppo and then the dragonfly red. The chord mojo was the most musical and most refined, with the oppo being the most neutral and the DF Red being the brightest. Here is the thing however, I found so little difference between any of these dacs and the headphone output that when I stopped looking for the difference and just enjoyed the music I didnt enjoy any of them more that the iphones internal dac (the dragon fly was a bit tiring on the ears for long sessions).
  
 In terms of portability the chord mojo is the worst, the micro usb is not very secure and its pretty chunky plus when you take into account the camera adapter you need it becomes a real pain to drag around. The oppo is built beautifully and is a lot easier to carry about as well as not requiring the camera adapter to work. The dragon fly is the easiest to carry about but because it uses the volume control on the iphone and its alot louder than the head phone jack, setting a comfortable volume is hard with iphone buttons.
  
 I'm a bit of a hi fi nerd and embarrassed to say I have a separates system that cost more than the deposit on a new house but I don't think any of these dacs are really worth it if you are using them on a phone.You can get some pretty cool computer speakers for the cost of the mojo (I bought some kef eggs when I sent the mojo back) or you could put that money towards a better pair of headphones or even get some custom fit ear plugs for them. You could buy 40 cds or an entry level turntable and some vinyl for that money.
  
 I can completely understand why some audiophiles might want one of these in there desktop music system to replace the rubbish on board dac but for someone who loves music on the go and wants the best bang for there buck I would look else where.
  
 This is just my personal experience and I understand everyone's ears are different. Hope this is helpful to anyone on the fence. As always the best thing do listen to them your self and come to your own conclusion.


----------



## brent75

Interesting - I had opposite conclusion on HA-2 vs DFR.

I agree on the portability issue. DACs/amps embedded in the cord is the way to go (for me). That's why Sine + Cipher was such an awesome discovery. I just use DFR with my laptop at home for couch listening -- I'm never near an outlet.


----------



## canali

brent75 said:


> Interesting - I had opposite conclusion on HA-2 vs DFR.
> 
> I agree on the portability issue. DACs/amps embedded in the cord is the way to go (for me). That's why Sine + Cipher was such an awesome discovery. I just use DFR with my laptop at home for couch listening -- I'm never near an outlet.


 
 can't wait for this tech to arrive from other companies down the road.
 lighter, slimmer, less additional wires, and  so largely unnoticeable but still offering kick ass sound:
 that is my meal ticket....imagine if the mojo came in a cipher and could hook into any gizmo
 now that i'd gladly pay $1k for.


----------



## myemaildw

ive heard oppo ha2, df red except mojo, df red is easily the best dac, for mojo i didnt hear it. if df red is not enough there is fiio x7 dap, to claim that iphone is as good as df red oppo ha2 i have nothing to add your opinion. buy fiio x7 it is better than df red but expensive and perhaps doesnt play with iphone i havent used it for that.


----------



## Moonparty

I wouldn't say the iphone is as good as the dacs I mentioned but non of the dacs improved my enjoyment of the music over using the se846 headphones straight out of the iphone. On paper all those dacs would destroy the iphone, yet my personal experience of actually listening to them was different. Again this is just my personal opinion but as a bit of a hi fi anorak who used to get behind all the "mains cables make a difference" and "check out this £2000 interconnect" bollocks i'm really trying, on principle, to get as much bang for my buck from my audio gear.
  
 I agree with you guys, Its an exciting time in terms of headphone tech and when the dac is neatly hidden in the cord I will probably be happier to rock an external dac (that cipher cable looks cool and damn right I would love the mojo in that with out all the bulk). Another note is the rumor of the removal of the headphone jack on the iphones as this will force people into using external dacs or some awful wireless beats headphones.
  
 Only time will tell.


----------



## headfry

thanks for your helpful review and comments. I've come to the same conclusion.....while I 
 can hear some sound improvements with the Mojo over my iPhone 6S+'s headphone jack (listened
 for a while at a retailer, fairly subtle differences),
 it doesn't make much difference to me in musical enjoyment....as the iPhone sounds excellent with 
 my Grado SR325e and SR80e's....listening at low to moderate volumes. Esp. with
 the RS325e's on most music I listen to (prog rock, refined pop, jazz fusion, some classical).
  
 Just because there is better or more refined sound out there doesn't mean it's worth
 the price and inconvenience to every discerning music lover.
  
 I'd rather wait until something comes along that's (for me) a real game changer...


----------



## fjrabon

headfry said:


> thanks for your helpful review and comments. I've come to the same conclusion.....while I
> can hear some sound improvements with the Mojo over my iPhone 6S+'s headphone jack (listened
> for a while at a retailer, fairly subtle differences),
> it doesn't make much difference to me in musical enjoyment....as the iPhone sounds excellent with
> ...



An amp/DAC can't really ever be a "real game changer" they can't make the music sound any better than it was recorded. The difference between the headphone out Jack and a mojo is larger than the difference between a theoretically perfect DAC/amp and the mojo.


----------



## Moonparty

headfry you have nailed it! nice to know i'm not alone.


----------



## defbear

Lots O stuff to chime in on. All the below comments are with an iphone6 plus running iAudiogate.
First, I dropped my DFR on concrete from 4 feet. And then one of my two feet kicked it sending it skittling across the garage floor onto the driveway. Not a mark. Not even a scuff.
I always use my Jitterbug with the DFR. Always! Bigger soundstage, more bass, better separation, additional buzzwords. My prediction is the next version of Dragonfly will have a built in Jitterbug. Don't tell Chord, but the Jitterbug improves my Mojo also.
The Dragonfly Red does not sound as good as my Bimby / lyr2 combo. Come on folks.
I think the Mojo sounds better than the DFR but not by a knockout. And it depends upon the application. The Mojo owes much of it's success to it's Moden Design, Fashion and it being a general fetish object. It's quite ergonomic in a real way, sounds great and is a pleasure to use. Cute little glowing cloored balls. They saw me coming. But my favorite setup for my ie800 IEM's is the dfr + jitterbug. I have a work desk that holds my Master 11, Bimby / microZOTL 2 combo. Sometimes i just use the ie800 / DFR combo. It sounds that good. In some ways the Mojo is neither fish nor fowl. I sometimes feed the microZOTL 2 with the Mojo. Sounds great. Bimby sounds better. The Mojo is not practical for the desktop as it is not meant to be plugged in all the time. And it's too big for truly portable and it,better be charged up. If I had to pick only one device, hands down I would take the DFR over the Mojo.


----------



## Moonparty

Fjrabon I think I understand what your saying. I think you could very well be right. If the jump from iphone dac to mojo isnt enough for me, no dac will be. Maybe great improvements will come in the amplifier sections of these products and maybe that will give me the jump im looking for. Then again if MQA becomes the standard I might find new value in the dac section of these products. You've given me food for thought.


----------



## zeeshanb

My experience is exactly the same. I was also curious about the Oppo Ha-2 and Mojo compared to my iphone 6. I found a dealer who had both, so took my Shure SE535 and my iphone 6 to hear for myself. I simply could not tell the difference between my iphone 6 headphone out and the 6 connected to the ha-2. Then I tried to compare the 6 with the mojo. The mojo was slightly better but I simply could not justify the $600 price tag plus the CCK. And both of these are hardly a portable solution. Imagine you have the ios device connected to the CCK cable to the usb cable to the mojo and you are walking around with it!
 At home, I have the Grado GS1000e which I am currently using with the ipod classic 6th gen. The ipod classic sounds slightly better (musical) compared to my iphone 6. I am still on the look out for a portable solution that sounds noticeably (read justifiable) better then the iphone or ipod classic.
  
 I think the best portable solution is a separate DAP. Or something like Arcam MusicBOOST. Not saying MusicBOOST is better sound wise but the form factor.


----------



## CFGamescape

moonparty said:


> The dragon fly is the easiest to carry about but because it uses the volume control on the iphone and its alot louder than the head phone jack, setting a comfortable volume is hard with iphone buttons.
> 
> I'm a bit of a hi fi nerd and embarrassed to say I have a separates system that cost more than the deposit on a new house but I don't think any of these dacs are really worth it if you are using them on a phone.


 
 This is interesting...I don't find setting an appropriate volume level with the DF Red + iPhone is difficult at all.
  
 IMO, the DF Red is the best *portable *DAC / amp combo currently available for the iPhone.


----------



## Duncan

cfgamescape said:


> This is interesting...I don't find setting an appropriate volume level with the DF Red + iPhone is difficult at all.
> 
> IMO, the DF Red is the best *portable* DAC / amp combo currently available for the iPhone.


agreed re the point in bold, and no RF interference if you want to use your phone at the same time... 

Even though I've only had my own DFR for a few weeks, I've already moved on, and am very happy, just a shame it is a bit of a taboo subject, where I've gone, as it isn't available in the US or Asia...


----------



## TasticBubble

If I'm hearing (static? white? idk the right term) noise when I plug my earphones into my computer and phone, would getting a dragonfly and plugging my earphones through it solve the problem?


----------



## myemaildw

what jitterbug do you have?


----------



## thewatcher101

Update, I ended up returning my dragon fly black, it just didn't do enough compared to the iphone 6s stock dac. I don't use hard to drive headphones and the sound quality didn't impress me enough.


----------



## tekwrx

I also just sent my DFB back to Amazon today. I liked it and think it is a great device, but I didn't find enough improvement over just using my stock LG V10 (in high gain mode). The DFB was great with my IEMs, but it didn't have enough juice to power my full size Sony MDR-Z7 so I figured what's the point? Maybe one day I'll try out the DFR and see if it has enough juice for my big cans


----------



## myemaildw

tekwrx dfr does it plays with hifiman he400 and even hd800


----------



## fjrabon

myemaildw said:


> @tekwrx dfr does it plays with hifiman he400 and even hd800


 

 The DFR is very good with the HE400i, but is a little bright and lacks a touch of detail with the HD800. I don't mind the DFR as a portable solution for the HD800, but I wouldn't use it as a primary there.


----------



## pkcpga

I found the dragon fly red to be too bright for the hd800 and for my grado gs1000, it also struggled to power both which seemed strange since the dragon fly black seems to power both of those similarly to the red but gives both a much warmer sound. From using both and now owning both I find the red doesn't offer much more "power" than the black just a more bright sound with very slightly more detail. The very slight detail increase is not worth the overly bright sound when matched up with a bright headphone or Iem. The red is ear bleeding with the Noble savant's and very thin and bright on the hd800. But the black gives the savant's a pleasant warmer detailed sound over just plugging into the iPhone direct, so for me the black is worth keeping for traveling with my IEM's but for full sized hp I'm still searching for something portable. The dfr does sound great with the sennheiser ie80 but so far that's the only thing I like pairing it with. One heads up is the dfr seems to become even brighter as it breaks in and the black losses it initial too warm boom sound as it breaks in. I'd demo them, a lot of places have them now including Best Buy in magnolia shops.


----------



## fjrabon

pkcpga said:


> I found the dragon fly red to be too bright for the hd800 and for my grado gs1000, it also struggled to power both which seemed strange since the dragon fly black seems to power both of those similarly to the red but gives both a much warmer sound. From using both and now owning both I find the red doesn't offer much more "power" than the black just a more bright sound with very slightly more detail. The very slight detail increase is not worth the overly bright sound when matched up with a bright headphone or Iem. The red is ear bleeding with the Noble savant's and very thin and bright on the hd800. But the black gives the savant's a pleasant warmer detailed sound over just plugging into the iPhone direct, so for me the black is worth keeping for traveling with my IEM's but for full sized hp I'm still searching for something portable. The dfr does sound great with the sennheiser ie80 but so far that's the only thing I like pairing it with. One heads up is the dfr seems to become even brighter as it breaks in and the black losses it initial too warm boom sound as it breaks in. I'd demo them, a lot of places have them now including Best Buy in magnolia shops.


 

 I like the DFR with every headphone in my signature except the HD800 and SR80e.  The black I felt was just too muddy/closed in to offer a whole lot of improvement in sound quality to make it worth putting in my chain.  There was a slight increase in bass control over the iPhone headphone jack, but that's about it.  The DFR definitely improved soundstage, bass control and resolution.  But yes, I agree, it is bright if you're pairing it with already bright headphones.


----------



## myemaildw

didn't like dfr with hd800 either but it was clean


----------



## pkcpga

The dfb starts off dark and muddy but after burn in cleans up a bunch but still has a warm sound, which for me is a nice improvement on bass response for the savant. The dfb has a warm signature so like anything with a warm sound the stage is not as wide or airy sounding. While for me after burn in the dfr became much too bright unless it was paired with the very warm sennheiser Ie80. I personally would not suggest the dfr with the hd800 or any bright to flat headphone, only warmer phones. Not sure how long you've used you dfr but mine definitely became brighter after about 35-40 hours, dfr started off nice and open sounding and a little bright but kept getting brighter with burn in. For myself I preordered the Cyrus sound key that comes out later this year and looking into other options. Im not keen on carrying a separate player from my phone, everything needs to fit into my IEM's case for flying or on the subway/train.


----------



## fjrabon

pkcpga said:


> The dfb starts off dark and muddy but after burn in cleans up a bunch but still has a warm sound, which for me is a nice improvement on bass response for the savant. The dfb has a warm signature so like anything with a warm sound the stage is not as wide or airy sounding. While for me after burn in the dfr became much too bright unless it was paired with the very warm sennheiser Ie80. I personally would not suggest the dfr with the hd800 or any bright to flat headphone, only warmer phones. Not sure how long you've used you dfr but mine definitely became brighter after about 35-40 hours, dfr started off nice and open sounding and a little bright but kept getting brighter with burn in. For myself I preordered the Cyrus sound key that comes out later this year and looking into other options. Im not keen on carrying a separate player from my phone, everything needs to fit into my IEM's case for flying or on the subway/train.


 

 I put in about 100 hours at this point with the DFR, I put in about 50 with the DFB.  The DFR certainly has not become too bright for me, even on neutral/bright headphones like the HE400i.  To me the DFR is voiced almost exactly like the Schiit Magni/Modi stack.  Not a great match for a handful of the brightest headphones or IEMs, but fine for warm and neutral cans.  The DFB is voiced a lot like an old burr brown DAC paired with a starving student hybrid amp.  Both are fun in their own way, but the DFR is certainly higher end and, for my money, a better starting point for high fidelity.  
  
 The main thing that I don't want a DAC or amp to do is destroy detail, and I think the DFB does that to a small degree.  I can always EQ in a bit more bass if need be, or EQ out a bit of treble, but you can't get back detail that has been lost.  I will give the DFB that it's very nice and forgiving though, it's great if you mainly play rock and hip hop and  are willing to give up some detail in favor of 2nd harmonic euphony.


----------



## pkcpga

fjrabon said:


> I like the DFR with every headphone in my signature except the HD800 and SR80e.  The black I felt was just too muddy/closed in to offer a whole lot of improvement in sound quality to make it worth putting in my chain.  There was a slight increase in bass control over the iPhone headphone jack, but that's about it.  The DFR definitely improved soundstage, bass control and resolution.  But yes, I agree, it is bright if you're pairing it with already bright headphones.







fjrabon said:


> I put in about 100 hours at this point with the DFR, I put in about 50 with the DFB.  The DFR certainly has not become too bright for me, even on neutral/bright headphones like the HE400i.  To me the DFR is voiced almost exactly like the Schiit Magni/Modi stack.  Not a great match for a handful of the brightest headphones or IEMs, but fine for warm and neutral cans.  The DFB is voiced a lot like an old burr brown DAC paired with a starving student hybrid amp.  Both are fun in their own way, but the DFR is certainly higher end and, for my money, a better starting point for high fidelity.
> 
> The main thing that I don't want a DAC or amp to do is destroy detail, and I think the DFB does that to a small degree.  I can always EQ in a bit more bass if need be, or EQ out a bit of treble, but you can't get back detail that has been lost.  I will give the DFB that it's very nice and forgiving though, it's great if you mainly play rock and hip hop and  are willing to give up some detail in favor of 2nd harmonic euphony.



I'm probably just expecting too much out of either, I usually use a Lynn preamp and amp or my grado amp and find both much more enjoyable but neither are very portable. I've tried AK before but with traveling I find they are conspicuous on trains/subways and a pain for flying when trying to only carry on.


----------



## myemaildw




----------



## brent75

I stumbled across a surprisingly awesome combination this evening while mowing the lawn -- take note if you like rock.
  
*DF Red + iPhone + stock music player + Westone W30s with foam tips.*
  
  
 Caveat #1: I like rock. And the kind of rock I REALLY like is best described as driving/grooving/sounds-like-it-was-recorded-live-in-a-studio/crunchy (see my poster name)/blues-based/booze drenched/little bit sloppy/rock. _Translation: early AC/DC._
  
 Caveat #2: I was in a hurry, so I just grabbed my iPhone 5s and was at the mercy of whatever was on the stock music player (I usually do my "real" listening through my iPod Touch and/or my laptop). Luckily, I had the classic _Powerage_ album loaded up.
  
 HOLY SMOKES it just blistered, and caught me off guard. Such good separation on the instruments -- the snare drum was snapping my neck and every single last bass guitar note punched through. Bon Scott's vocals were coming from everywhere. The Young brothers were just ripping open my chest with their riffs and solos. It was fantastic.
  
 Why was it so good? I think it's because the stock music player sounds a little warm compared to IAudioGate or HF Player. The Red adds the separation while pumping in some drive. So put the two together, and it works nicely...especially in an environment where there's other noise distractions like a lawn mower engine (in other words, not sitting in a quiet room doing critical listening).


----------



## Angular Mo

Bummed that I misplaced the cap from my DFR after only a few weeks of ownership, and will be purchasing a set of ugly silicon USB caps as protection.


----------



## waynes world

myemaildw said:


>


 
  
 I think what you're saying is that the zuperdac is better than the dfr.


----------



## SomeGuyDude

brent75 said:


> Caveat #2: I was in a hurry, so I just grabbed my iPhone 5s and was at the mercy of whatever was on the stock music player (I usually do my "real" listening through my iPod Touch and/or my laptop). Luckily, I had the classic _Powerage_ album loaded up.


 
  
 You know an iPod touch is just an iPhone without the phone antenna, right? Like... that's not a less "real" DAP than the Touch.


----------



## estreeter

OK, so you've paid somewhere in the vicinity of *a thousand USD for a flagship smartphone* - presumably one with extra attention paid to the sonics - and you're disappointed that a DAC/amp costing roughly a tenth of the purchase price of said phone _doesnt sound appreciably better_ ?? Nip out and buy one of the EBay portables from Topping or SMSL at that pricepoint and I suspect that you'll see things a little differently - I have the NX2 FWIW - and I dont need to mention the headphone out on cheap Android phones and tablets. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind about the DFB - simply trying to point out that some of us appear to have bought the thing with inflated expectations.
  
 (please read the online warnings re SMSL quality control before following the above tongue-in-cheek advice. By contrast, the NX2 just runs and runs for hours days on end)


----------



## brent75

someguydude said:


> You know an iPod touch is just an iPhone without the phone antenna, right? Like... that's not a less "real" DAP than the Touch.


 
 Yessir, fully aware...but thanks for making sure. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 The point I was essentially making but probably not articulating very well was: I was using stock player because I was in a hurry, and didn't want to go grab my iPod with iAudioGate + my FLAC and ALAC tracks. So it was just 256kbps AAC tracks.
  
 But yes, I definitely understand that I CAN put iAudioGate/HF Player/etc on EITHER my iPod or my iPhone and essentially make them the same.


----------



## pkcpga

Has anyone compared the newer dragon flys to the Zuperdac? Just curious how they compare.


----------



## myemaildw

df red is much better than zuperdac


----------



## pkcpga

Hmm I hated the dfr it was too bright for me. How did they compare?


----------



## pkcpga

myemaildw said:


> df red is much better than zuperdac



Have you listened to the two DAC with any multi driver IEM's or BA IEM's? Just curious because I find the dfr to be too bright for BA IEM's that tend to be a little flat or bright to start off.


----------



## SpiderNhan

pkcpga said:


> Have you listened to the two DAC with any multi driver IEM's or BA IEM's? Just curious because I find the dfr to be too bright for BA IEM's that tend to be a little flat or bright to start off.


 
 DFR sounds great with my triple-driver hybrid DN-2000J and BA A151p.


----------



## ChrisSC

DFR pairs really well with the tralucent ref 1s.


----------



## shotgunshane

Zuperdac is 4 ohms OI. I would not recommend it for BA based iems, unless you were purposefully wanting to under-damp them by 4 ohms. Dynamic driver iems and high impedance balanced armatures (like the Earsonics SM64) will be unaffected.


----------



## pkcpga

shotgunshane said:


> Zuperdac is 4 ohms OI. I would not recommend it for BA based iems, unless you were purposefully wanting to under-damp them by 4 ohms. Dynamic driver iems and high impedance
> balanced armatures (like the Earsonics SM64) will be unaffected.



Thanks


----------



## bazurk

Does the DragonFly Red sound that much better than Black? I have Synthesizer 598's B&W P7's and Grado SR225's.  Little help on the purchase would be appreciated!


----------



## WhiteNoises

Has anyone else noticed that when you connect your Dragonfly (Red in my case) to a portable device that's running out of battery (25% or less) the sound just lacks punch? Nearly no bass and compressed sound. The first time this happened I was horrified and thought that's what the Dragonfly sounds all the time after all haha, but when I fully charged my iPad it was back to beautiful, full bodied sound. 

Yesterday I bought the Lightning to USB 3 Camera Adapter that allows me to power the DFR when the battery is low and charge the iPad too. Even yesterday when I tried it the sound seemed incredibly good with it, but it might have been placebo and if anyone wants I'll report in a few days again when I've had the chance to test it more objectively.


----------



## myemaildw

Apple adapter simply adds usb port to your iphone and it doesn't power DFR, it only charges iphone.


----------



## tommo21

I got my DFB yesterday and hooked it up to my Ipod Touch 6, and it blasted through my battery in around 3 hours playing at 50% volume.....that can't be correct? I know the touch has a smallish battery compared to Iphone, but something else must have been drawing current as well I hope.
  
 This was using very power friendly iems.


----------



## WhiteNoises

myemaildw said:


> Apple adapter simply adds usb port to your iphone and it doesn't power DFR, it only charges iphone.




Even if that's true, it somehow gives more power to the iPad to power USB peripherals. I quote an article on 9to5Mac here:
"Unlike the standard $29.00 Lightning to USB Camera Adapter, this new USB 3-enabled adapter features a Lightning input for powering the device. This means that, in order to truly take advantage of the adapter, you’ll need to mate it with a Lightning cable (not included).

Having a powered adapter allows you to circumvent the annoying The connected device requires too much power error message that pops up when plugging in devices that need too much juice. With the new Lightning to USB 3 Camera Adapter, that message will generally be a thing of the past, at least with supported iPads."

And here's a video that demonstrates it: https://youtu.be/31Ln5HZ2UFY


----------



## vilders

hifiguy528 said:


> I bought DF blk & Red on Amazon a week ago. Will report back with my findings after some quality ear time. I own every DF model...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## myemaildw

it might not give an error but it doesnt mean device will work or work to full potential. with zuperdac it stops playing on full volume when bass starts, if i lower volume one it plays and if i add 5v to it it doesnt stop playing on full volume and sound is a bit more refined, and from laptop it doesnt stop playing on full volume because it has more power than iphone. pluging lightning cable makes no differrence on volume or quality of audio, still stops playing on full volume and no refinement as with added 5v usb hub.

as for df red i actually havent noticed any improvement either, may be because i wasnt paying attention to it, with use i will use that but so far its just a dac that works on iphone. may be its your ipad a bit dodgy? or may be ipads work differrently to iphones with usb adapter and dfr dac


----------



## pkcpga

whitenoises said:


> Has anyone else noticed that when you connect your Dragonfly (Red in my case) to a portable device that's running out of battery (25% or less) the sound just lacks punch? Nearly no bass and compressed sound. The first time this happened I was horrified and thought that's what the Dragonfly sounds all the time after all haha, but when I fully charged my iPad it was back to beautiful, full bodied sound.
> 
> Yesterday I bought the Lightning to USB 3 Camera Adapter that allows me to power the DFR when the battery is low and charge the iPad too. Even yesterday when I tried it the sound seemed incredibly good with it, but it might have been placebo and if anyone wants I'll report in a few days again when I've had the chance to test it more objectively.




Remember any apple product goes into power save mode at 20% that's when I noticed a big change in sound quality and volume, the apple product supplies less power to everything to conserve.


----------



## pkcpga

myemaildw said:


> Apple adapter simply adds usb port to your iphone and it doesn't power DFR, it only charges iphone.



The whole point of the camera power adapter is that any device connected can draw power from your phone, it only allows a certain amount of power to be drawn at a time. Which is why so far direct connect DAC are not able to power, power hungry headphones and Df do kill your phone battery in about half its usual time.


----------



## myemaildw

em ye, but because the adapter has lightning I actually never had issue with dacs cause I can plug in lightning and not only not drain iPhone battery but also charge iphone at same time as i use sub dac with iPhone with usb adapter. I actually never run out of battery with it. you can always take a battery pack with you and lightning cable if you will use it for a long time or if you go somewhere for a few hours. these dacs are small and not that power hungry, but I actually don't know how long DFR last on a single iphone charge. I just never had an issue with it, i always have enough battery left even when I get home, and then I charge it and use it at same time. it's way better than ios mfi dacs and dac cables, plus it supports higher bitrate. the only thing it just dangles from iphone, I wish there was 180 reverse lightning adapter so that you could stack usb adapter and usb dac and have jack at top, but probably someone will make one at some point. plus use a suction cup to attach usb adapter to iPhone or something like that. no glue residue plus can take it off when you don't need. lol but I haven't had running out of battery issue with usb dacs and USB adapter with extra lightning jack cause it has lightning jack to charge iPhone while you are using the dac. I haven't seen a better solution. oppo ha2 has a battery but thats rudimental old technology that got obsolete with this new usb dac which you can charge your iPhone with any battery pack or usb. plus oppo ha2 didn't provide any improvement in audio quality compared to df red and is actually more expensive than df red dac. plus customs import tax from buying oppo ha2 from china, hong kong etc. even used oppo ha2 sell for price of new on ebay probably because of import taxes.
ymmv


----------



## pkcpga

myemaildw said:


> em ye, but because the adapter has lightning I actually never had issue with dacs cause I can plug in lightning and not only not drain iPhone battery but also charge iphone at same time as i use sub dac with iPhone with usb adapter. I actually never run out of battery with it. you can always take a battery pack with you and lightning cable if you will use it for a long time or if you go somewhere for a few hours. these dacs are small and not that power hungry, but I actually don't know how long DFR last on a single iphone charge. I just never had an issue with it, i always have enough battery left even when I get home, and then I charge it and use it at same time. it's way better than ios mfi dacs and dac cables, plus it supports higher bitrate. the only thing it just dangles from iphone, I wish there was 180 reverse lightning adapter so that you could stack usb adapter and usb dac and have jack at top, but probably someone will make one at some point. plus use a suction cup to attach usb adapter to iPhone or something like that. no glue residue plus can take it off when you don't need. lol but I haven't had running out of battery issue with usb dacs and USB adapter with extra lightning jack cause it has lightning jack to charge iPhone while you are using the dac. I haven't seen a better solution. oppo ha2 has a battery but thats rudimental old technology that got obsolete with this new usb dac which you can charge your iPhone with any battery pack or usb. plus oppo ha2 didn't provide any improvement in audio quality compared to df red and is actually more expensive than df red dac. plus customs import tax from buying oppo ha2 from china, hong kong etc. even used oppo ha2 sell for price of new on ebay probably because of import taxes.
> ymmv



The df attached to iPhone 6plus using onkyo app allows for about 4 hours of play before you hit 20% and DAC can no longer be powered due to iPhone reserve mode. The df using regular music on the iPhone can play longer but never fully tested that way just noticed after two hours of regular play it only drained about 20% of the battery. But if you use an app for better quality music and the df you have a pretty limited battery supply.


----------



## pkcpga

pkcpga said:


> The df attached to iPhone 6plus using onkyo app allows for about 4 hours of play before you hit 20% and DAC can no longer be powered due to iPhone reserve mode. The df using regular music on the iPhone can play longer but never fully tested that way just noticed after two hours of regular play it only drained about 20% of the battery. But if you use an app for better quality music and the df you have a pretty limited battery supply.



For me flying for work plus onkyo app and df does not work well my phone is dead before I land. I still need to find a good portable DAC that has its own power supply or just listen to standard iPhone quality music with the df.


----------



## SpiderNhan

pkcpga said:


> For me flying for work plus onkyo app and df does not work well my phone is dead before I land. I still need to find a good portable DAC that has its own power supply or just listen to standard iPhone quality music with the df.


 
  +  + + =


----------



## pkcpga

bazurk said:


> Does the DragonFly Red sound that much better than Black? I have Synthesizer 598's B&W P7's and Grado SR225's.  Little help on the purchase would be appreciated!



The two DF have very different sound signatures, technically the red is "better" but some people like myself find it too bright for bright or a little above flat headphones or IEM's. The red has a bit more open detailed sound but also extends the highs to a very bright level, while the black is warm and with being warm it has some hidden details and a smoother tone with more bass. It depends on which sound you enjoy more and what you will be connecting to, for my iPhone and most of my IEM's the black works better for me using the onkyo hf player. With my grado rs2 the red works same with my sennheiser ie80, but with my gs1000 and hd800 neither works well.


----------



## pkcpga

spidernhan said:


> +
> +
> +
> =



Looks interesting but does it just wind up weighing more and having more cords than a self powered DAC like the chord and many of the self powered will have better sound? And more power for harder to power headphones? Seems like a lot of extra components to carry over just buying a self powered DAC, looks like it would be hard to keep everything tied up if you want to move or grab something.


----------



## brent75

I think the added CCK + batter charger is no big deal for flying. If it was for walking/out and about/etc, then it gets to be too much (which is why I settled on Sine + Cipher straight into my iPod). But on a plane, I've got stuff in my lap and/or drink tray anyway, so no biggie.
  
 Also, regardless of whether I'm listening to music or playing games or something else, any flight more than two hours taxes the Apple battery pretty quickly...so I would have my battery charger regardless of whether DF Red was used or not


----------



## myemaildw

I have my lte mobile data switched off, it drains lots of battery and money, may be that's why it drains too much power? with lte it drains battery without the dac


----------



## blojayble

Hello everyone.
  
 I'm a newbie in terms of high quality headphones and all that stuff, and I decided to start off by purchasing Yamaha EPH-100, but now I realised that I don't really have any decent source to fully enjoy their capabilities. Do you think that Dragonfly Black would suit them well? DFB has acceptable price and I read a lot of good things about this DAC, but is it the best thing I can get myself for this money? I move around a lot so mobility and compact size is a great asset for me.
  
 Any thoughts?


----------



## myemaildw

if you have android phones some android phones tend to have better dac and amp than iPhones so improvement in audio might not be that better or none, for iPhone ye df is way better.


----------



## newyorker4life

spidernhan said:


> +
> +
> +
> =




The graphic is perfect depiction of first reason I returned DFR. I wanted to love it, I really really did. Alas, the bulk and iPhone battery drain vs. performance was not congruent for me nor did hear any discernible improvement with my Oppo PM3s. No difference at all using phone, tablet or laptop as source. The second equally disappointing reason I returned it was I understood it was marketed as a portable solution. To me, portable means walking my dog with it. Flying with it. Taking the subway with it. Losing all headphone volume & track control while walking my dog, traveling, commuting, and having to remove all the above gadgets and show everyone around me what I am carrying is just, c'mon guys. How hard can it be to mimic what the Cipher DAC can do and keep your HP track & volume control if you're describing the product as "portable". I have my first small (but not portable) self powered tube amp/DAC on the way, less than $90, my first massdrop buy. Almost 200 people, many from head fi forums, jumped in on it. This will be my third amp/DAC audition, knowing it will remain stationary for home listening. IMHO the only TRULY portable amp/DAC is the Audeze integrated Cipher cable. It was remarkably capable, night and day way better than standard cable, and a great v 1.0 EQ app. Alas I returned the Sine because of fit & comfort issues. As soon as cipher cable or an analogue product can be used with other HPs, I'll buy it in a heartbeat. If the next dragonfly can enable track & volume control (like Cipher) I'd give that another try. As soon as Apple confirms iPhone 7 specs, we will see many more integrated amp/DACs - and iPhone will pack a more powerful battery to power them.


----------



## estreeter

tommo21 said:


> I got my DFB yesterday and hooked it up to my Ipod Touch 6, and it blasted through my battery in around 3 hours playing at 50% volume.....that can't be correct? I know the touch has a smallish battery compared to Iphone, but something else must have been drawing current as well I hope.
> 
> This was using very power friendly iems.


 
  
 Interesting and (potentially) alarming, given that 40 hours playback time for the Touch isnt far short of the iPhone's claimed 50 hours (at least not in my world):
  
 http://www.phonearena.com/phones/compare/Apple-iPod-touch-5th-generation,Apple-iPhone-6/phones/7545,8346
  
 Will be interested to hear if the same thing happens from a fully charged rouch - I've only just managed to get USB audio working with the DFB from a tablet and I'll be more than happy to report back re the impact on battery life.


----------



## canali

newyorker4life said:


> The graphic is perfect depiction of first reason I returned DFR. I wanted to love it, I really really did. Alas, the bulk and iPhone battery drain vs. performance was not congruent for me nor did hear any discernible improvement with my Oppo PM3s. No difference at all using phone, tablet or laptop as source. The second equally disappointing reason I returned it was I understood it was marketed as a portable solution. To me, portable means walking my dog with it. Flying with it. Taking the subway with it. Losing all headphone volume & track control while walking my dog, traveling, commuting, and having to remove all the above gadgets and show everyone around me what I am carrying is just, c'mon guys. How hard can it be to mimic what the Cipher DAC can do and keep your HP track & volume control if you're describing the product as "portable". I have my first small (but not portable) self powered tube amp/DAC on the way, less than $90, my first massdrop buy. Almost 200 people, many from head fi forums, jumped in on it. This will be my third amp/DAC audition, knowing it will remain stationary for home listening. IMHO the only TRULY portable amp/DAC is the Audeze integrated Cipher cable. It was remarkably capable, night and day way better than standard cable, and a great v 1.0 EQ app. Alas I returned the Sine because of fit & comfort issues. As soon as cipher cable or an analogue product can be used with other HPs, I'll buy it in a heartbeat. If the next dragonfly can enable track & volume control (like Cipher) I'd give that another try. As soon as Apple confirms iPhone 7 specs, we will see many more integrated amp/DACs - and iPhone will pack a more powerful battery to power them.


 
  
  
 i honestly don't see the fuss on battery life ...i carry around one of those ubiquitous 'lipstick tube' rechargers with my ipod touch 6 (gives me 3000ah or whatever they are)...pllus i can charge it when i'm driving with my $10 gizmo....or while surfing only laptop can recharge it.
 df is not bulky or such, too.
  
 i'm with you, however, on the cipher cable: i do think it is soooo very coool...here's hoping it's the shape of things to come...
 the more our portable audio can be lighter, less obtrusive, smaller (yet still great sounding) the better for us all.


----------



## SomeGuyDude

canali said:


> i honestly don't see the fuss on battery life ...i carry around one of those ubiquitous 'lipstick tube' rechargers with my ipod touch 6 (gives me 3000ah or whatever they are)...pllus i can charge it when i'm driving with my $10 gizmo....or while surfing only laptop can recharge it.
> df is not bulky or such, too.


 
  
 Saying battery life doesn't matter because you can always charge is ridiculous. Would you like a gadget that has 30 minute battery life because, hey, you can always charge? Come on.
  
 Regardless, tried the DFR out of my Galaxy S7 with an OTG cable and it sounded like garbage for some reason. Meh. Love it out of my PC's though.


----------



## newyorker4life

canali said:


> i honestly don't see the fuss on battery life ...i carry around one of those ubiquitous 'lipstick tube' rechargers with my ipod touch 6 (gives me 3000ah or whatever they are)...pllus i can charge it when i'm driving with my $10 gizmo....or while surfing only laptop can recharge it.
> df is not bulky or such, too.
> 
> i'm with you, however, on the cipher cable: i do think it is soooo very coool...here's hoping it's the shape of things to come...
> the more our portable audio can be lighter, less obtrusive, smaller (yet still great sounding) the better for us all.




The Cipher cable is incredibly cool - and actually not so small in size. I posted pics of it in another thread but did so again here. In fact it's fairly substantial, which I don't think people realize yet. It's not much smaller than DFR. Incredible build quality you can feel in your hand. The cool part is its integrated and you don't need all the "other" added pieces. This will disrupt amp/DAC design and that is good for us. Integration means lighter, more efficient, truly portable, better sound, more fun. [ATTACHMENT=2906]image.jpeg (1,022k. jpeg file)[/ATTACHMENT]


----------



## canali

someguydude said:


> Saying battery life doesn't matter because you can always charge is ridiculous. Would you like a gadget that has 30 minute battery life because, hey, you can always charge? Come on.
> 
> Regardless, tried the DFR out of my Galaxy S7 with an OTG cable and it sounded like garbage for some reason. Meh. Love it out of my PC's


 
  
 don't think I'm being ridiculous...but i do understand your point in that i should have been _more specific because_
 i was referring to my current ipod touch and most current portable devices in general, not some gizmo of 3-5 yrs ago when batteries truly sucked.
 sure the ipod touch could be better (heck all phones and portable devices for that matter)
 but they're not as bad as they were, and we also have other accessories to extend their life.
 i mean it is what it is with portable battery life...i just have to live with it for now and try to make due hence the accessories.
 and again, hopefully cipher will be the shape of things to come...image a df or mojo in some cipher cable that could hook into any ios/android
 in some manner? would be fab


----------



## newyorker4life

canali said:


> don't think I'm being ridiculous at all...but i should have been more specific..
> i was referring to my current ipod touch and most current portable devices
> ...not some gizmo of 5 yrs ago when batteries truly sucked.
> sure the ipod touch could be better (heck all phones and portable devices for that matter)
> ...




Check out the photo of cipher DAC I posted - somehow Audeze has already engineered the equivalent of an integrated DFR. Using cipher I didn't see a discernible battery drain, and I did also really like the v 1.0 EQ app. I think people also haven't fully understood the potential of the EQ app that manages the integrated DAC. Imagine v 2.0 with software based gain control, etc. That this is only v 1.0 is amazing enough. So much potential.


----------



## estreeter

myemaildw said:


> if you have android phones some android phones tend to have better dac and amp than iPhones so improvement in audio might not be that better or none, for iPhone ye df is way better.


 
  
 Ok, this is my take on it after a VERY quick listen to my new Lenovo Tab3 A7-10, arguably one of the cheapest Android tablets available from a name brand (plenty of reviews out there for those who are interested).
  
 I've owned several iDevices, from the 120&160GB Classics through several Touch models and a 2014 iPad Mini - of these, I'd probably rate the 2014 Touch as the best from the headphone out so I'll use my recollection of that as a baseline. Our auditory memory is somewhere around 8 minutes, but overall I thought the Touch worked very hard to give the impression that Apple had spent time building something more than a crippled iPhone - YMMV, but I suspect that there are enough Touch owners out there who'll be able to (hopefully) relate to my ratings. This is all based on stock EQ with the default music player app (more on Onkyo HF Player and the DFB at a later date), using the Solo2 as my priimary headphone.
  
 ZTE T815 - 3/10 - a very cheap phone and one I'd leave off for the duration of a long-haul flight
 ZTE Zip - 5/10 - I'd listen to this if it was my only option, but its unlikely to wow anyone over the age of eight from the headphone out
 Tab3 -     9/10 - difficult to say what the Touch did better from the HO, but I recall it being a little more dynamic and engaging - that said, this is a massive improvement for 20AUD over the cost of the Zip
  
 I'll have more to say about the improvements I believe the DFB brings to the Tab3, but I need time at home without the distractions I'm forced to deal with atm. I'm not going to get into a discussion of the silicon in the Lenovo tablet vs the Touch, and _any off-the-cuff rating like this needs to be taken with a bucket of salt_, but for me the delta between the cheapest Android device I own and the Tab3 is the important point in terms of this discussion. I get that most Head-Fiers dont want to cart a 7" tablet with a low-res screen around when they've already spent good money on a phone, but those wanting to dip their toes into USB audio for minimal outlay could do a lot worse than the Tab3/DFB combination. I know a few in this thread spend time in the Android DAC thread, so I'll try to minimise duplicate posts and save the wordier impressions for a separate review.


----------



## pkcpga

I'm coming more and more to realize it makes more sense to carry something like the oppo HA-2, better amp, higher rates and self powered while still having less cables and junk to carry than a df plus camera cable dual cord for extra battery and df to be attached. This just seems easier, the df concept looks great but its not practical for me. Carry a bunch of cords and three things to connect on a subway or train for commuting is not easy along with a suit case and possibly having to stand.


----------



## newyorker4life

pkcpga said:


> I'm coming more and more to realize it makes more sense to carry something like the oppo HA-2, better amp, higher rates and self powered while still having less cables and junk to carry than a df plus camera cable dual cord for extra battery and df to be attached. This just seems easier, the df concept looks great but its not practical for me. Carry a bunch of cords and three things to connect on a subway or train for commuting is not easy along with a suit case and possibly having to stand.




Exactly my experience ....but I'm not sure HA-2 would feel truly portable either for me personally. It's like carrying two phones instead of one. I am considering auditioning it - because I really love my PM3s. There doesn't seem clear consensus on whether the HA-2 makes that big a difference either. I think I'll probably give it a try at some point to satisfy my curiosity. Oppo usually has refurb HA-2s.


----------



## pkcpga

newyorker4life said:


> Exactly my experience ....but I'm not sure HA-2 would feel truly portable either for me personally. It's like carrying two phones instead of one. I am considering auditioning it - because I really love my PM3s. There doesn't seem clear consensus on whether the HA-2 makes that big a difference either. I think I'll probably give it a try at some point to satisfy my curiosity. Oppo usually has refurb HA-2s.



Same I figured I'd give it a try at least it can be banded to the phone instead of dangling three different things. If anyone knows any other DAC/amp that are self powered to suggest please do. I've tried fio and they are not an upgrade to me.


----------



## tommo21

estreeter said:


> Interesting and (potentially) alarming, given that 40 hours playback time for the Touch isnt far short of the iPhone's claimed 50 hours (at least not in my world):
> 
> http://www.phonearena.com/phones/compare/Apple-iPod-touch-5th-generation,Apple-iPhone-6/phones/7545,8346
> 
> Will be interested to hear if the same thing happens from a fully charged rouch - I've only just managed to get USB audio working with the DFB from a tablet and I'll be more than happy to report back re the impact on battery life.


 
 Second try on battery length on Ipod Touch 6 gave me closer to 9 hours batterlife playing Spotify from Wifi. It's better than initial test but still far from 40 hours. I guess when travelling and playing downloaded files you can turn off Wifi, and probably get 15-20 hours batterylife. I'm much happier with the batterylife now as it will last for as long as I need it too in my travels.
  
 As for using my Trinity Audio Sabre IEM's with this combo it's very pleasing that I can go to 50% volume instead of 100% volume straight out of the Touch. I'm curios about the DFR as well, but with my IEM's I would struggle with keeping the volume down. Soundwise compared (DFB)to straight out of the Touch, it's a bit darker sounding, but need more time to compare for other differences. I'm happy though as I can turn up the volume a bit(much more if I want to) more than without it.


----------



## Devodonaldson

pkcpga said:


> I'm coming more and more to realize it makes more sense to carry something like the oppo HA-2, better amp, higher rates and self powered while still having less cables and junk to carry than a df plus camera cable dual cord for extra battery and df to be attached. This just seems easier, the df concept looks great but its not practical for me. Carry a bunch of cords and three things to connect on a subway or train for commuting is not easy along with a suit case and possibly having to stand.



So I see android and IOS people have issues just different ones. IOS people have ease of plug and play, but horrible battery life. On Android, due to usb audio issues in general, to get the best out of any dac, we have to use onkyo hf or Uapp. However I can play flac files through my galaxy s7 edge and dragonfly red for 8 hours straight and eat through MAYBE 50 percent battery if the screen is off that whole time. Wow on IOS battery drain


----------



## Torq

devodonaldson said:


> So I see android and IOS people have issues just different ones. IOS people have ease of plug and play, but horrible battery life. On Android, due to usb audio issues in general, to get the best out of any dac, we have to use onkyo hf or Uapp. However I can play flac files through my galaxy s7 edge and dragonfly red for 8 hours straight and eat through MAYBE 50 percent battery if the screen is off that whole time. Wow on IOS battery drain


 

 I recently did back to back 2.5 and 9.5 hour plane flights using an iPhone 6S, DragonFly Red and Bose QC20 (don't laugh, I only use them when I'm flying as the noise cancelling beats the isolation of other IEMs and they're "forget you're wearing them" comfortable ... normally I run Shure SE846).  Battery was fully charged when I started, and was still comfortably over 50%.
  
 That was playing offline FLAC files from TIDAL (HiFi setting, so full CD quality).
  
 Of course, the phone was in Airplane mode (so all radios disabled), and it wasn't doing anything else, but then that's about what's required to get 50 hours music playback out of one anyway.


----------



## Hubert481

Where can i find the newest firmware for the red audioquest dragonfly dac ?


----------



## Devodonaldson

hubert481 said:


> Where can i find the newest firmware for the red audioquest dragonfly dac ?



Register your dac on audioquest website for update notices. No updates as of yet


----------



## brent75

Regarding the last few comments:I started with the HA-2 and auditioned it for nearly a month. I ultimately sent it back in favor of the DFR. Several reasons why:

I prefer the "sound" of the DFR. I felt the HA-2 was too harsh in the highs and thin in the lows, and I wasn't a fan of leaving bass boost on. The DFR just sounded better and right for my ears. Similar to Mojo (which I also auditioned) -- I didn't feel the DFR needed any bass boost.
The bulk was a pain. Sure, you can connect directly with the short cable and avoid CCK because it's certified...but the overall brick you end up with is anything but convenient.
The ability to charge my phone via the amp didn't offer any benefits to me. For starters, I already have a charging brick I take on flights (so a redundant benefit). And second, switching the HA-2 from amping to charging drains ITS battery super fast. So if you drain your phone/iPod battery and recharge it via the HA-2, guess what? Now you need to charge the HA-2. Point is -- you always need to charge something...
The DFR's ability to upgrade via firmware was intriguing to me...who knows what the future could hold!
I found I would be using it more via laptop than portable, and DFR is smaller/faster/quicker -- on the HA2 you have to change cables and switch the selector and power it on/off and so forth...DFR is just plug/play
All these things would be enough for me if the price were equal...but the fact that DFR was $100 cheaper sealed the deal
  
 Regarding battery life, I can't imagine doing ANYTHING on my iphone or ipod for 50 hours, let alone 40. As has been noted, the best performance seems to come in Airplane Mode. I haven't noticed my battery draining faster with DFR than without -- it probably happens but isn't noticeable to me.


----------



## pkcpga

brent75 said:


> Regarding the last few comments:I started with the HA-2 and auditioned it for nearly a month. I ultimately sent it back in favor of the DFR. Several reasons why:
> 
> I prefer the "sound" of the DFR. I felt the HA-2 was too harsh in the highs and thin in the lows, and I wasn't a fan of leaving bass boost on. The DFR just sounded better and right for my ears. Similar to Mojo (which I also auditioned) -- I didn't feel the DFR needed any bass boost.
> The bulk was a pain. Sure, you can connect directly with the short cable and avoid CCK because it's certified...but the overall brick you end up with is anything but convenient.
> ...



Good to know you found the ha2 even brighter than the dfr which I already find too bright for IEM's. I guess I'm going to have to spend the money to try the mojo. Thanks for the little comparison.


----------



## fjrabon

pkcpga said:


> Good to know you found the ha2 even brighter than the dfr which I already find too bright for IEM's. I guess I'm going to have to spend the money to try the mojo. Thanks for the little comparison.



The mojo isn't much less "bright" than the DFR.


----------



## myemaildw

It really is weird that people say DFR isn't portable. are you crazy? it's not like oppo ha2 dac you stack or mojo or fiio x7 dap. it's a size of a usb stick. it was marketed as portable you can market anything as anything it doesn't even has to be that as long as people buy it. one example is I was tearing an old wallet apart and it had a leather piece attached to it and it was embossed genuine leather, and I assumed the whole wallet was made from leather. but then I wanted to tear that leather piece and couldn't and the one on wallet torn like paper. so they attach a small leather piece that has genuine leather on it but wallet itself is made from paper like material not leather. and people assume the whole wallet is made from leather because of that one small piece of leather that isn't even a part of a wallet. now that's ********. don't get me started about shoes, oh well here

[VIDEO]https://youtu.be/MZ41fYXq7u4[/VIDEO]

now to the dac

I do agree with impressions on oppo ha2, used it too, also sounded thin, mfi is a thing of the past, if mfi cable breaks what are you gonna do? they aren't that durable. buying a new one would probably as expensive as Apple usb cable which you can charge iPhone at same time as using the dac and it supports higher full bitrates not only mfi limited bitrate.

now is it truly portable? well it's dangling off iphone if I would have lighting adapter that would make a bend I could actually stack the apple usb cable and dac. but i don't see anyone sell that

and it's doesn't drain my iPhone battery any faster than just using iphone. plus it's mobile data that's draining your battery, if you don't use it switch it off.

now on brightness of DFR ye it does seem to be a bit bright it's not audio lie brightness I just get more ear fatigue. I use it with flare iem I made and I like it because it's nice sound and lacks extended highs cause lots of iems are too ear fatiguing for me. and I didn't realise dacs can be bright, so but DFR does worth the money, cause I'm getting good audio better more dynamic than my zuperdac which I still use with ted baker Dover iem it makes better sound with zuperdac. not in technicality buy sound nuance like in coffee. nuances of coffee. em ye so it does worth the money.

also there was one using sable iem ye it's not cozoy aegis dac where it has no gradual volume and lowest volume is too loud, DFR one is actually very quiet on lowest volumes and also has gradual volume slider which slides volume gradually when volume buttons don't give perfect volume. having a wheel as on ha2 for volume isn't that convenient cause you don't know if you put any volume cause every turn is different volume, buttons are easier to use.

the only thing led is always green cause MP3 and cd quality is always green. stupid little thing should show MP3 and cd 1k quality different but well there is no point in that led at all really cause I rarely use any other bitrate.


----------



## pkcpga

If you contact apple or check their site, the camera USB will allow a 50% faster drain rate of the battery life my iPhone 6 Plus barely last 12 hours without this extra drain. In the Apple Store the geek squad stated that df devices use about 75% of the Mac allowed power so you will see about a 40% quickier battery drain.
If you use higher quality music the dfr extends the highs even more, making an already brighter unit too bright for myself. My df's both are usually orange colored light which I believe is 88k through my onkyo player which also draws more power than my generic Apple player. I find at least with a banded DAC/amp I can carry it in one hand verse trying to stop a swinging attachment from disconnecting. If someone came out with a better connector that would be a different story but it's just not easy to carry or stay connected when dangling or to try to fold both into your pocket without disconnecting the not very bendable cable. So for me something that can be banded makes more sense even if it weighs a couple of grams more.


----------



## brent75

pkcpga said:


> I find at least with a banded DAC/amp I can carry it in one hand verse trying to stop a swinging attachment from disconnecting. If someone came out with a better connector that would be a different story but it's just not easy to carry or stay connected when dangling or to try to fold both into your pocket without disconnecting the not very bendable cable. So for me something that can be banded makes more sense even if it weighs a couple of grams more.


 
 It's a little homegrown as far as aesthetics, but if that doesn't bother you then I think what Darko came up with is pretty sweet.
  
 When I auditioned HA-2 + iPhone as my portable rig, here's what I experienced: sure you, can CARRY it with one hand...but you can't really USE it very easily. The bulk made it difficult to move my thumb to one place to control the volume knob...then another place to skip/select tracks...then another place to do something else. Plus, bands + touch screens do not play well together. I was constantly adjusting and trying to find the right place to have it so it wouldn't cover the play button...or the back button...or the skip track button...and so forth. It was all magnified because I tried to do this while walking my dogs every night. They're both 60 lbs, so my right hand was dedicated to the leash and managing them...leaving my left trying to manage the music. It was too much (before even taking into account all the other factors I listed earlier).


----------



## pkcpga

That's interesting, does the cable stay connected if you place it in your pocket like that. Keeping the cable connected when bending it has been my biggest problem.


----------



## brent75

pkcpga said:


> That's interesting, does the cable stay connected if you place it in your pocket like that. Keeping the cable connected when bending it has been my biggest problem.


 
 I'm not sure -- I haven't tried it. It's actually not my picture, but taken from Darko's website: http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2016/04/audioquests-dragonfly-red-puts-high-end-daps-on-notice/
  
 However, I do use a similar set-up when I mow the lawn. I just use iPhone --> CCK --> DFR -->my Westone W30s...stuff into my pocket...and I've never had a single issue of it disconnecting. Also, I'm not a fan of bright/harsh highs, but I've never had that experience with the DFR and my Westones. I use the foam tips (no clue if that has an effect or not).


----------



## CFGamescape




----------



## SomeGuyDude

Can anyone offer an a/b of the jitterbug with this? I got a Dragontail incoming but I seriously cannot figure out if the JB would offer any tangible benefit.


----------



## kovacs

pkcpga said:


> That's interesting, does the cable stay connected if you place it in your pocket like that. Keeping the cable connected when bending it has been my biggest problem.


 

 I think it will, the physical connection with the camera connection kit is pretty strong it won't fall out on it's own, you have to pull it out. I was going to use it with my iPad Pro because it has a pretty poor headphone jack but I don't think it's worth the hassle, it's always in my way and it's difficult to find the perfect volume because the gain is so high, use my last gen iPod touch without the Dragonfly Black now...


----------



## pkcpga

kovacs said:


> I think it will, the physical connection with the camera connection kit is pretty strong it won't fall out on it's own, you have to pull it out. I was going to use it with my iPad Pro because it has a pretty poor headphone jack but I don't think it's worth the hassle, it's always in my way and it's difficult to find the perfect volume because the gain is so high, use my last gen iPod touch without the Dragonfly Black now...



For me while folding the lightning cable the usb doesn't disconnect but the lightning loses connection. That's why I was wondering if it's Velcro down and not moving freely if it will stay connected. I'm going to give it a try, can't hurt and better than what I'm doing now.


----------



## fjrabon

someguydude said:


> Can anyone offer an a/b of the jitterbug with this? I got a Dragontail incoming but I seriously cannot figure out if the JB would offer any tangible benefit.


 

 it completely depends on what it's coming out of.  Coming out of my macbook pro, which has completely sectioned off USB controllers for each USB, not that big of a difference.  It's there but it's small.  With my work Dell that has 4 USB ports on the same controller, it's a large difference.  With the iPhone it's a moderate difference.
  
 The difference is primarily in smoothness and micro detail.  The increase in micro detail can make it seem like the soundstage is larger because it better transmits subtle spatial cues.  The smoothness makes it seem like it's not as bright because the highs aren't as harsh (although I don't think it actually impacts the frequency response, but rather the perception of the frequency response.


----------



## rynogee

spidernhan said:


> I bought 2 of these(just in case of DOA) a few weeks ago and they just arrived today.
> 
> http://www.aliexpress.com/item/10PCS-Left-Right-90-degree-Angled-Right-angled-90-degree-Micro-USB-Host-OTG-Cable-for/1033848084.html
> 
> ...


 
 I bought 2 pf the cables in the first link, but I'm either doing something wrong, or they are both DOA or not OTG.
  
 I'm using an xperia Z5 compact with the DF black straightinto the cable. I can't get Onkyo HF player or USB pro player to recognise the DF black. 
  
 Is there a process to follow or other system settings to check or change? Should the DF light up when plugged in, or just when playing (or not at all)?


----------



## Duncan

Not at all, if you're on MM, a white box should come up when plugging in the DFR asking you if you want your program to use it...


----------



## Sound Eq

interested


----------



## SeeSax

Some great thoughts going on in this thread and I agree with the general consensus that the DFR is great. I don't have too much to add on that front, but, pictures are cool too right? 
  
 -Collin-


----------



## estreeter

rynogee said:


> I bought 2 pf the cables in the first link, but I'm either doing something wrong, or they are both DOA or not OTG.
> 
> I'm using an xperia Z5 compact with the DF black straightinto the cable. I can't get Onkyo HF player or USB pro player to recognise the DF black.
> 
> Is there a process to follow or other system settings to check or change? Should the DF light up when plugged in, or just when playing (or not at all)?


 
  
*You will get a light from either a laptop or an android device if the battery is capable of driving the DFB and your USB OTG cable is working. *
  
 Obviously, you dont need an OTG cable for a laptop, but having spent several weeks of frustration with two cheap phones and 3 cables, I believe I know what I'm  talking about here. DF was red until I fired up Onkyo HF Player and told it to use the USB device for playback - only annoyance is the nag screen asking you to pay for the full app if you want to access hi-res music at its native resolution (see the HF Player doco for more info on that). FWIW, my Lenovo tablet has a 3450 mAH battery - more than double the ZTE phones that refused to light up the DFB - and I hope to run some tests re battery drain for the folk in the main Android DAC thread this weekend. Gotta love those guys - that thread has become a de facto bible for anyone looking to try USB audio from an Android device.


----------



## rynogee

estreeter said:


> *You will get a light from either a laptop or an android device if the battery is capable of driving the DFB and your USB OTG cable is working. *
> 
> Obviously, you dont need an OTG cable for a laptop, but having spent several weeks of frustration with two cheap phones and 3 cables, I believe I know what I'm  talking about here. DF was red until I fired up Onkyo HF Player and told it to use the USB device for playback - only annoyance is the nag screen asking you to pay for the full app if you want to access hi-res music at its native resolution (see the HF Player doco for more info on that). FWIW, my Lenovo tablet has a 3450 mAH battery - more than double the ZTE phones that refused to light up the DFB - and I hope to run some tests re battery drain for the folk in the main Android DAC thread this weekend. Gotta love those guys - that thread has become a de facto bible for anyone looking to try USB audio from an Android device.


 
 is there any way to tell if my phone's battery is capable of driving the DFB or if the problem is with the cables?


----------



## estreeter

rynogee said:


> is there any way to tell if my phone's battery is capable of driving the DFB or if the problem is with the cables?


 
  
 Therein lies the hideous frustration of audio over USB on Android - been there, got the t-shirt. Unlike iOS which at least throws up a message indicating that the power draw is too great (and a USB hub usually fixes that), Android does nothing, at least IME. You can try hooking up a mouse or somesuch to see if the cable works, but again if your device doesnt have sufficient power this may not conclusively prove that its the cable. Standard answer seems to be 'keep buying cheap OTG cables till you find one that works', but I just went out and bought a tablet that was recommended earlier in this thread and didnt cost me a thousand dollars. Trust me, I feel your pain - it really shouldnt be this effing hard.


----------



## Tadamn

estreeter said:


> Therein lies the hideous frustration of audio over USB on Android - been there, got the t-shirt. Unlike iOS which at least throws up a message indicating that the power draw is too great (and a USB hub usually fixes that), Android does nothing, at least IME. You can try hooking up a mouse or somesuch to see if the cable works, but again if your device doesnt have sufficient power this may not conclusively prove that its the cable. Standard answer seems to be 'keep buying cheap OTG cables till you find one that works', but I just went out and bought a tablet that was recommended earlier in this thread and didnt cost me a thousand dollars. Trust me, I feel your pain - it really shouldnt be this effing hard.


 

 There are better solutions available.


----------



## musiclife

myemaildw said:


>


 

_ _I just received the Zurdac and was also thinking to get the DFR just to compare! Can you hear some differences?
 What I dont like in the Zurdac is the high output impedance, and I find the sound a bit too harsh for a Sabre chip...


----------



## SuperFuya

Guys help me!! 
  
 So I just ordered Sennheiser HD600 and AKG K701 from the internet.
 Now I am really wondering whether I need to buy an amp or not. 
 I mainly listen from my phone and laptop.
 My music genre is 90% classical music (violin,piano, including opera) and the rest is like jazz, or Frank Sinatra.
 With this kind of music, I am not really sure that I need an amp, what do you guys think?
 It would be nice for me to save money....
  
 And is the difference between black and red huge? especially for this music genre?
 Oh ya last question, does the quality of the adapter matter?
  
 Thankss guys!


----------



## SeeSax

Has anyone compared the DFR to the Centrance DACport HD? Seem to be similarly spec'd, but my curiosity is in the hardware volume control that the DFR lacks and therefore causes issues in Android. 
  
 -Collin-


----------



## chenszhanx

superfuya said:


> Guys help me!!
> 
> So I just ordered Sennheiser HD600 and AKG K701 from the internet.
> Now I am really wondering whether I need to buy an amp or not.
> ...


 
 I am using DFR+Q701
 DFR does a lot better than DF V1.5 with Q701
 DFR offers more detail and bigger stage. 
 And DFR beats my old device Fiio X3
 In both sound and convenience
  
 Unless your phone is a Android phone like mine.(suffer volume issue)
 I think go  DFR is good choice.


----------



## pkcpga

chenszhanx said:


> I am using DFR+Q701
> DFR does a lot better than DF V1.5 with Q701
> DFR offers more detail and bigger stage.
> And DFR beats my old device Fiio X3
> ...



Not sure the power requirement diiference for the hd600 verse my hd800 but the dfr or dfb does not have enough power to properly power the hd800. Sound becomes thin and poor bass response, it will become loud it just doesn't have a enough power to bring it to its full potential. For the hd800 the dfr makes the hd800 sound harsh, extended highs with seriously lacking lows. The dfb is warmer but you lose detail and not enough power to give good bass response.


----------



## chenszhanx

Is there any office response after
http://goo.gl/8UMLW5

This happens to my 
Sony z z3 z5
Asus Zenefone 2 ,laser 6

That is all device I have.
This is only happens to Samsung…


----------



## chenszhanx

officerdibble said:


> FWIW - I had a reply back from AQ support relating to the Red only working (100%) with UAPP on the Galaxy S6.
> 
> AQ reply:
> 
> ...


 
 Is there any more reply form AQ.
 This problem happens to my Sony xperia z,z3,z5 And Asus Zenfone2,Laser6.
 In fact these are all living device I have.
  
 This is surely not Samsung only


----------



## estreeter

tommo21 said:


> Second try on battery length on Ipod Touch 6 gave me closer to 9 hours batterlife playing Spotify from Wifi. It's better than initial test but still far from 40 hours. I guess when travelling and playing downloaded files you can turn off Wifi, and probably get 15-20 hours batterylife. I'm much happier with the batterylife now as it will last for as long as I need it too in my travels.
> 
> As for using my Trinity Audio Sabre IEM's with this combo it's very pleasing that I can go to 50% volume instead of 100% volume straight out of the Touch. I'm curios about the DFR as well, but with my IEM's I would struggle with keeping the volume down. Soundwise compared (DFB)to straight out of the Touch, it's a bit darker sounding, but need more time to compare for other differences. I'm happy though as I can turn up the volume a bit(much more if I want to) more than without it.


 
  
 OK - not sure how valid any comparisons will be given that my tablet has a completely different battery, but for a device rated at 10 hours continuous use (I'm assuming that includes video playback), playing music at near 100% on the volume slider into the DFB w/portable amp took the estimated battery life* from 97% to 63% after 5 hours *continuous shuffling using HF Player : I'm happy with that, even if experience tells me that things go downhill a lot faster under 50% than they do above that estimate. No-one wants to spend the last ten minutes before going to bed checking that all their battery-powered devices are on a charger, particularly if you travel regularly, but some of the early boutique DAPs and amps had absolutely woeful battery life. We live in a golden age


----------



## estreeter

tadamn said:


> There are better solutions available.


 
  
 Better ? Sure. Cheaper ? Not from where I'm sitting. I'm assuming that you ean there are better _Android_ solutions available - you havent elaborated, so allow me to expand on my earlier rant.
  
 I've used the iPod Touch in my example below, and its price is within strikiing distance of some of the mid-tier Android phones here, assuming that they have the battery/OS requirements for USB audio. I realise that most adults in 2016 have a decent phone and that I'm an aberration in that I see the smartphone as throwaway technology, particularly when my day--to-day communication needs are amply met by a $29 prepaid phone that could disappear tomorrow and I wouldnt miss it.
  
 First, another niggle re Android phones and the cabling situation. When I bought the ADL X1 in 2014, it came with an absolutely fantastic cable that was tailormade to allow it to piggyback with the iPod Classic or Touch:
  

  
 You plugged it in, checked that the relevant switch on the X1 was activated, pressed play on the iDevice and it just worked. I have yet to see a photo anywhere of an Android-based rig that can touch that stack for simplicity and ease-of-use. Audeze's Cipher DAC-in-a-cable or the CEntrance Glove Audio A1 are where I thought we might be by now, but neither is targeted at the Android market. Such is life, but it would be very nice indeed if either became a reality for Android (even if the A1 was limited to a single flagship phone).
  
 It's difficult to nominate anything with less than 160GB of onboard storage on a forum frequented by folk who want to carry as much of their collection - in the highest possible resolution - everywhere they go, but lets go back to John Darko's suggestion that 16GB Touch+DFB puts newcomers to portable audio in a very good position when it comes to enjoying streaming services alongside their own music. Here in Oz, that would look something like this:
  
 16GB Touch - 278 AUD
 http://www.officeworks.com.au/shop/officeworks/p/ipod-touch-16gb-blue-apto616be
  
 Lightning to USB Camera Adapter - 45 AUD
 http://www.apple.com/au/shop/product/MD821AM/A/lightning-to-usb-camera-adapter
  
 Dragonfly Black - 149 AUD
 http://www.minidisc.com.au/head-amps-dacs/headphone-amps-dacs/portable-amps-dacs/audioquest-dragonfly-usb-dac-black-15-p-1101010.html
  
 Shopping around might get you a few bucks off the Touch and the cable, but Apple seem to keep retailers on a tight leash - happy to hear otherwise. I wont bore my fellow Head-Fiers any further with this exercise - suffice to say that the tablet+3 OTG cables+DFB cost less than the Touch by itself, so I'm prepared to live with a few tradeoffs. Throw in the cost of my 32GB SD card, the fact that the Touch feels significantly better in the hand than my 7" tablet (or the iPad Mini, fwiw) and many will undoubtedly opt for the plug-and-play option even if it means spending more money. Darko 1, estreeter 0.5


----------



## musiclife

myemaildw said:


> so i bought the df red dac, its very nice. also heard fiio x7 dap what a sound, makes you realise that its pointless to buy a good headphones and using it with iphone cause its just not as good dac. ive actually listened to lots of dacs. i heard astell and kern dap its just ask ***** as ak10 dac i had and ak likes really slow volume wheel. oppo ha2 also kinda disapointment for price, df red is better than oppo ha2 dac. also heard fiio x3 also ***** amlost like iphone audio quality. fiio x7 is better than df red its its very good. df red is between fiio x7 dap and zuperdac. and zuperdac is between df red and iphone.
> but ye fiio x7 is expensive. but fiio needs to make ios dac i dont like daps cause no apps but its nice


 

 What about VS the E10k ? Ok its not as tiny as the DFR or Zuperdac, and it has a battery, but its even cheaper! I personally love mine. Can go high volume without any distortion, and no excessive brightness at all.


----------



## myemaildw

had e10k too, nice you can adjust volume and loud enough but sounded weird, prefer zuperdac not as loud though. DFR is better but lacks bass cause 1 ohm amp might be good for iems but also means less bass for dynamic drivers iems. it needs 2 ohm amp or more for descent bass with dd iems


----------



## Ymer

It works with the 4th gen iPad and camera adapter, right? That will make a sweet media player.


----------



## shotgunshane

1 ohm does not mean less bass for dynamic driver iems. Dynamic based iems have flat impedance and do not experience increases or decreases in quantity based on output impedance. However increased impedance will give less damping/grip to the driver which can result in slower bass. This slower/longer decay can be perceived as more bass. Not sure how much slower 4 ohms would be or even if noticeable. Would need to see CSD's to confirm.


----------



## Ratfink5

Is anyone having playback issues with the new Dragon Fly Red?  I am using a Iphone 6 with an official lightning to USB and when I start using it, a song will start playing then almost sound like it is skipping, unplug it and plug it back in, it is then fine.


----------



## Torq

ratfink5 said:


> Is anyone having playback issues with the new Dragon Fly Red?  I am using a Iphone 6 with an official lightning to USB and when I start using it, a song will start playing then almost sound like it is skipping, unplug it and plug it back in, it is then fine.


 
  
 I've not had anything like that feeding it from an iPhone 6S and the regular CCK (I've also used the powered CCK w/ the lightning socket).
  
 I picked mine up the week of release, and it's traveled all over and been used extensively in that time.  It has been completely well behaved the entire time.  That's used with the native music player, and TIDAL (with both streaming and offline content).  
  
 I'm assuming you've tried restarting the phone, with no other apps loaded, to see if it still occurs then?


----------



## Set845

ratfink5 said:


> Is anyone having playback issues with the new Dragon Fly Red?  I am using a Iphone 6 with an official lightning to USB and when I start using it, a song will start playing then almost sound like it is skipping, unplug it and plug it back in, it is then fine.




Yes it happened to me once, just as you say, on my iPhone 6 using Tidal. I switched to another song, no joy. I had to unplug the Dragonfly Red and plug it back in and it was fine. 
On another note. I'm thinking about getting the Oppo Pm-3. Anybody using it with the Dragonfly Red? How is it?


----------



## coca-cola

I've bought a Dragonfly red today and i'm really satisfied with it as long as i'm using it on my Laptop.
 Once I connect the DFR on my S5, the volume is kind of low unless i use the UAPP. As mentioned before, the driver from UAPP won't work with Spotify, which is really annoying.
 There is an Idea to solve that problem which you can find on the Spotify Homepage: https://community.spotify.com/t5/Live-Ideas/Android-Connect-Support-USB-Audio-through-the-USB-Audio-Player/idi-p/1345306
 Please Support this idea so that who knows someday spotify will present us a solution!
  
English is not my mother tongue; please excuse any errors on my part.


----------



## SeeSax

I have seen battery life mentioned a few times so I thought I would do some testing with my S7 + DFR and post the results. Basically, I take my dog on the same walk every day and listen to Tidal streaming with the DFR + Pinnacle P1s, so I thought it was a good opportunity to see just how much the DFR drains compared to no amp connected to the phone. 
  
 In my 45 minute walk: 
  
 S7 + DFR + P1 = *8% battery drain*
 S7 + P1 = *6% battery drain*
  
 I am not a mathematician, nor a scientist, but I think it would be relatively safe to assume that all things equal, the DFR will drain 25% more of your phone's battery than not having it. Which for me, is QUITE tolerable and I am fairly surprised. I saw reference to someone saying the Centrance DACport would kill their tablet in four hours. I think these are much more efficient, though I have admittedly never tried the DACport (I want to though). 
  
 -Collin-


----------



## pkcpga

set845 said:


> Yes it happened to me once, just as you say, on my iPhone 6 using Tidal. I switched to another song, no joy. I had to unplug the Dragonfly Red and plug it back in and it was fine.
> On another note. I'm thinking about getting the Oppo Pm-3. Anybody using it with the Dragonfly Red? How is it?




After having sound issues and weird battery drain issues but only randomly, I ditched both DF's after borrowing the chord mojo this weekend from my local dealer. Considering it's only the size and weight of the two df put together the drastic sound difference, volume control and self powered, made the decision easy for me. It's by far a much better DAC, I'm playing high res music from my onkyo player at 192 or 176 from my phone instead of 96 or 88 on the df connected to my phone. There's far better separation and the mojo easily powers my hd800 or my rs1000e and any of my IEM's much better, with high, standard or low gain and up to 32/768 which I have never seen a recording that high yet it's worth the size and weight gain, much better than adding an additional battery. I actually like the mojo DAC better than my Lynn home DAC which was 4 or 5 times the price. If your unhappy with your df the mojo is amazing definitely worth the price difference and much better than the 1,000 Sony.

I also found the df drains battery faster at below 60% on my phone than above it, than stops functioning at around 20%.


----------



## Set845

pkcpga said:


> After having sound issues and weird battery drain issues but only randomly, I ditched both DF's after borrowing the chord mojo this weekend from my local dealer. Considering it's only the size and weight of the two df put together the drastic sound difference, volume control and self powered, made the decision easy for me. It's by far a much better DAC, I'm playing high res music from my onkyo player at 192 or 176 from my phone instead of 96 or 88 on the df connected to my phone. There's far better separation and the mojo easily powers my hd800 or my rs1000e and any of my IEM's much better, with high, standard or low gain and up to 32/768 which I have never seen a recording that high yet it's worth the size and weight gain, much better than adding an additional battery. I actually like the mojo DAC better than my Lynn home DAC which was 4 or 5 times the price. If your unhappy with your df the mojo is amazing definitely worth the price difference and much better than the 1,000 Sony.
> 
> I also found the df drains battery faster at below 60% on my phone than above it, than stops functioning at around 20%.




I never said I was unhappy with my DF. I was only confirming that I experienced the same glitch that Ratfink5 had. It happened to me one time so far. I actually like it very much. I think it strikes a great balance between portability, functionality, price, and sound quality with my iPhone 6. My DF runs below 20% battery on my iPhone. So far for My needs, the battery has been very good. I'm sure the Mojo is awesome but it's not portable enough for Me. I'm actually thinking of getting one for around the house. But I'll never take that out for a walk.


----------



## pkcpga

set845 said:


> I never said I was unhappy with my DF. I was only confirming that I experienced the same glitch that Ratfink5 had. It happened to me one time so far. I actually like it very much. I think it strikes a great balance between portability, functionality, price, and sound quality with my iPhone 6. My DF runs below 20% battery on my iPhone. So far for My needs, the battery has been very good. I'm sure the Mojo is awesome but it's not portable enough for Me. I'm actually thinking of getting one for around the house. But I'll never take that out for a walk.




Apple stated that once power save mode turns on at 20% the phone will stop supplying out side sources power so the df would not be able to function. I went to apple after I was having some weird disconnects with the df, most turned out to be my first df was defective with the exception of battery power draining quickier after 60% than turning volume or power down to almost off at 20% power that was just the way the iPhone reacts to battery drains through the lightning connector. Some reason my dfr was defective but my dfb was not. Neither pleased me in the end. For home or any use I'd recommend checking out the mojo it's extremely impressive for its price and size.


----------



## Set845

pkcpga said:


> Apple stated that once power save mode turns on at 20% the phone will stop supplying out side sources power so the df would not be able to function. I went to apple after I was having some weird disconnects with the df, most turned out to be my first df was defective with the exception of battery power draining quickier after 60% than turning volume or power down to almost off at 20% power that was just the way the iPhone reacts to battery drains through the lightning connector. Some reason my dfr was defective but my dfb was not. Neither pleased me in the end. For home or any use I'd recommend checking out the mojo it's extremely impressive for its price and size.




Funny, I just turned low power mode on and I don't hear a difference. Same volume. My iPhone is at 80% battery, so maybe that makes a difference, I don't know. I am seriously considering the Mojo though.


----------



## Torq

pkcpga said:


> After having sound issues and weird battery drain issues but only randomly, I ditched both DF's after borrowing the chord mojo this weekend from my local dealer. Considering it's only the size and weight of the two df put together the drastic sound difference, volume control and self powered, made the decision easy for me. It's by far a much better DAC, I'm playing high res music from my onkyo player at 192 or 176 from my phone instead of 96 or 88 on the df connected to my phone. There's far better separation and the mojo easily powers my hd800 or my rs1000e and any of my IEM's much better, with high, standard or low gain and up to 32/768 which I have never seen a recording that high yet it's worth the size and weight gain, much better than adding an additional battery. I actually like the mojo DAC better than my Lynn home DAC which was 4 or 5 times the price. If your unhappy with your df the mojo is amazing definitely worth the price difference and much better than the 1,000 Sony.
> 
> I also found the df drains battery faster at below 60% on my phone than above it, than stops functioning at around 20%.


 

 I wouldn't argue that Mojo is a much more capable, and better sounding, product than either DragonFly (I have the Red as well as a Mojo) ... but that level of exaggeration does no one any good.
  
 Mojo is, physically *8 times the weight and 10 times the size *of the DragonFly units (with the cap on, the DragonFly is the same length as the Mojo is wide, for example).
  
 As for battery ... at least when traveling, you either carry some way to charge the Mojo on the go (which, if you're flying, means a portable battery that's going to be at least the size of the Mojo itself in order to actually be useful, or you gamble on in-seat power), or you're done in about 8 hours.  I can easily get longer than that with just my iPhone 6S and the DragonFly.


----------



## estreeter

Unlike many here, I have absolutely no issues with the sound quality improvement over my other sources (particularly phone headphone sockets) that I'm getting with the DFB, particularly given the low price, but I do have a bone to pick with both Audioquest and Meridian. *The Dragonfly Download page still lists the Desktop app as 'coming soon*' - I dont know what the definition of 'soon' is at AQ, but for a DAC which has been on the market for a couple of months I consider this poor form. This is the mechanism by which we can expect to get the big ticket item that separates the DFB/DFR from earlier Dragonflys -* firmware upgrades* - and it might also help those of us having playback issues troubleshoot said problems before contacting AQ (my assumption, but that's the kind of functionality I'd be looking to build into a desktop application - ymmv). If there are no firmware upgrades yet, fine, _but dont direct owners to the app in the manual if you havent got your s*it together on the software front_. I know what it is to pound a keyboard trying to make an impossible deadline, but this sort of lag wouldnt have been accepted by any project manager I've ever had to answer to.
  
 Meridian released the Exporer 2 as an affordable MQA-enabled DAC - a window into a technology that Bob Stuart seems to have invested a lot in, albeit as a side project. If the Amazon feedback is anything to go by, early units had no MQA capability at all - this was fixed with a firmware upgrade, but I still see it as a classic case of the marketing department dictating ship dates. Meridian have been in high-end audio almost as long as I've been on the planet, and Audioquest seem to be working very hard to bring good sound to those of us cursed with moth-ridden wallets, but I believe both dropped the ball in their haste to get the all important post-show publicity that sells gear. They arent the first audio companies to under-deliver and many would argue that I'm making a mountain out of a molehill - just ask yourself how this would go down if Apple or Microsoft did something similar with a new whizbang product (heaven forbid ). Peace out.


----------



## pkcpga

torq said:


> I wouldn't argue that Mojo is a much more capable, and better sounding, product than either DragonFly (I have the Red as well as a Mojo) ... but that level of exaggeration does no one any good.
> 
> Mojo is, physically *8 times the weight and 10 times the size* of the DragonFly units (with the cap on, the DragonFly is the same length as the Mojo is wide, for example).
> 
> As for battery ... at least when traveling, you either carry some way to charge the Mojo on the go (which, if you're flying, means a portable battery that's going to be at least the size of the Mojo itself in order to actually be useful, or you gamble on in-seat power), or you're done in about 8 hours.  I can easily get longer than that with just my iPhone 6S and the DragonFly.



Here's the specs 
Df 12mm X 19mm X 62mm cap removed from audioquest site weight 69g
Mojo 80mm X 60mm X 20mm from chord site weight 180g

So about 2.5 times the weight and about 3.5 times the size. Far cry from your estimate.

My df with iPhone 6plus did not last more than 6 hours with using the onkyo player app, so I'd need to charge my phone battery at that point, phone battery at less than 20% in power save mode.

This way my phone battery will be at 30% after 9.5 hours of use and I'd have to recharge the mojo but it lasts me 9.5 hours. Specs state 10 hours but I received about 9.5. The only way you'd receive less is if the first charge you didn't leave charging for the suggested 10 hours or if you used more the a 1amp charger the first time.


----------



## BigPoppa17211

Ordered the DFR as an upgrade for my fiio e07k. Just wondering whether anyone else has experience with both? Hopefully this will be a bit of an upgrade.


----------



## Torq

pkcpga said:


> Here's the specs
> Df 12mm X 19mm X 62mm cap removed from audioquest site weight 69g
> Mojo 80mm X 60mm X 20mm from chord site weight 180g
> 
> ...


 

 I don't care what the website claims ... and it's not an estimate - I've got both the units sitting in front of me.
  
 The DFR weights 22g with the cap on, the Mojo 172g - that's actual weight, on a scale, right in front of me.  By my math that makes the Mojo 7.8 times heavier (I rounded up to 8).  I don't know what number Audioquest is quoting, but it isn't the weight of the DragonFly.
  
 Size wise ... well ... take a look, that sure isn't double!
  

  

  
 With my SE846 I get about 7 hours on the Mojo.  Lower impedance headphones sap the power faster (ask Rob).
  
 I did a flight from Italy to Heathrow and then Heathrow to Seattle about three weeks ago.  That's about 14 hours total.  The DFR fed from iPhone 6S lasted the entire trip.  Even at the BEST estimates for Mojo, never mind the realities of real-world use, that's 4 hours more.


----------



## pkcpga

torq said:


> I don't care what the website claims ... and it's not an estimate - I've got both the units sitting in front of me.
> 
> The DFR weights 22g with the cap on, the Mojo 172g - that's actual weight, on a scale, right in front of me.  By my math that makes the Mojo 7.8 times heavier (I rounded up to 8).  I don't know what number Audioquest is quoting, but it isn't the weight of the DragonFly.
> 
> ...



Sorry the iPhone can barely get 14 hours on standby let alone in use. I charge my iPhone half way through the day with regular use no df.


----------



## Torq

pkcpga said:


> Sorry the iPhone can barely get 14 hours on standby let alone in use. I charge my iPhone half way through the day with regular use no df.


 

 Then I'd seriously suggest you take yours back to Apple because there's clearly a fault with your battery - unless you reside in an area with absolutely TERRIBLE cell signal.
  
 14 hours on standby is ridiculous.
  
 I'm at 44% right now.  I pulled it off the charger at 6 AM (so 12 hours ago).  I've made about 30 minutes of calls.  I listened to music via the DFR for the hour I walked at lunch, while using my Fenix 3 HR with Connect turned on.  I had the phone streaming to my car via Bluetooth half an hour each way to/from the office.  I've spent a good hour or so, on and off, reading the web during meetings that were too boring to focus on.  And I've sent/received at least 100 messages during the day.
  
 It'll be above 20% before I retire.
  
 Anything less ... it'd be useless device for me.
  
 And on the plane, the radios are all switched off and all it's doing is playing music ... the radios are by far the biggest drain on the unit.


----------



## brent75

Here's what I posted on DFR vs Mojo a long while back.
  
 It's great that Mojo can play 192 (and higher) vs "just" 96...but I personally can't hear a difference between 192 and 96. I'm not sure if it's a blessing or a curse that people can. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 And I agree with the sentiment that moving from DFR to Mojo doesn't solve any battery issues -- it merely changes the equation. Whether it's your phone, or your Mojo, you've always gotta charge something...


----------



## SomeGuyDude

brent75 said:


> Here's what I posted on DFR vs Mojo a long while back.
> 
> It's great that Mojo can play 192 (and higher) vs "just" 96...but I personally can't hear a difference between 192 and 96. I'm not sure if it's a blessing or a curse that people can.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I've seen articles proving that it's physically impossible to hear 192 v 96.


----------



## brent75

someguydude said:


> I've seen articles proving that it's physically impossible to hear 192 v 96.


 
 All the better, then. I don't need to pay $400 more for a device that sounds the same (to me)...can light up different colors (even if it's above human register of hearing)...is bigger/bulkier...and requires constant recharging.
  
 I am NOT opposed to Mojo, nor am I slamming it, even though it probably sounds that way. It's probably great for plenty of people, evidenced by all the fawning over it. I just personally don't get it. To each their own!


----------



## Torq

someguydude said:


> I've seen articles proving that it's physically impossible to hear 192 v 96.


 

 I've seen articles proving that it's physically impossible to travel faster than the speed of sound.
  
 But I'm just playing devil's advocate.


----------



## SomeGuyDude

torq said:


> I've seen articles proving that it's physically impossible to travel faster than the speed of sound.
> 
> But I'm just playing devil's advocate.


 
  
 I heavily doubt that.
  
 regardless, it has to do with the density of the waves and how our ears work. You can't hear 40KHz, either.


----------



## Torq

someguydude said:


> I heavily doubt that.
> 
> regardless, it has to do with the density of the waves and how our ears work. You can't hear 40KHz, either.


 

 You can doubt it all you like; the fact that the "proofs" were wrong, doesn't change that they exist.  There are lots of lovely papers and proofs of that nature if you go back into human history even just a little way - relatively speaking.
  
 And while it was never a "proof", go back to the dawn of the steam engine and railways, and it was widely believed that humans couldn't travel at more than about 30 mph without suffocating.  Yet today we have people that can hit 28 mph just on the power of their own legs (by which I mean running ... faster still with mechanical advantages, say, with a bicycle).
  
 And I'm not claiming I can hear 40 KHz, either.
  
 There are, however, some interesting recent papers, nothing to do with the audiophile world, that are showing humans responding to signals at 35 KHz and beyond though.  Whether that's through hearing or some other means of perception isn't known at this point, but the data is interesting.  Not useful for audio I suspect, but a couple of years ago it was considered impossible in serious scientific circles also.
  
 Closed mindedness and blind faith are the absolute enemies of learning.


----------



## newyorker4life

I tried DFR and really wanted to love it, but I heard no difference really with my Oppo PM3s and with having to also add Apple CCK, it is really not "portable" for an urban setting or walking the dog. And you lose hp volume & track control. . Returned it. Have a small tube amp on the way, will give that a try at home, for home listening. I honestly can't see paying more for an amp that costs more than the Hp's cost to begin with. Glowing balls or no glowing balls.....


----------



## brent75

Funny thing is, I ended up using (and loving) DFR predominantly for my laptop-on-the-couch sessions. The only other places are (1) when mowing the lawn with my IEMs, and (2) when flying with some ANC cans I have.
  
 For walking the dogs, it's Sine + Cipher straight into my iPod Touch.


----------



## estreeter

Guys, without wanting to add fuel to the fire, the 96 vs 192 / 24-bit vs 16-bit etc discussions rightfully belong in Sound Science or over at Hydrogen Audio. I have no problem with someone saying they dont care about any resolution above Redbook (or 96kHz or whatever), but when we start rehashing the old 'even bats cant hear that frequency !' stuff it gets old. None of the Dragonfly models are being marketed as one-size-fits-all DACs and personally thats fine with me - playing 192kHz files using 24/96 is basic arithmetic and anything beyond that will mean spending more money.


----------



## funkoid

Has anyone tried the black with 250ohm headphones, I'll be powering a pair of DT990 Pros so want to make sure it'll have enough juice. 
  
 Also, this will be my upgrade from a Fubar Dac and iCute amp combo, am I likely to notice a difference with standard lossless CD files?


----------



## SeeSax

funkoid said:


> Has anyone tried the black with 250ohm headphones, I'll be powering a pair of DT990 Pros so want to make sure it'll have enough juice.
> 
> Also, this will be my upgrade from a Fubar Dac and iCute amp combo, am I likely to notice a difference with standard lossless CD files?


 
  
 I have the DT990s and it powers them adequately for my tastes. I find my DT990s to be a bit bright on the treble, so I don't really crank them up to ear-piercing volumes, but it does seem to work fine with them. 
  
 I asked this earlier, but I'll try again: has anyone compared this to the Centrance DACport products? I am tired of UAPP on my S7 and Tidal and am drawn to the hardware volume control. I do not like the implementation of how the volume works on Android with the DFR and am thinking of drying the DACport instead. 
  
 -Collin-


----------



## shotgunshane

torq said:


> I've seen articles proving that it's physically impossible to travel faster than the speed of sound.
> 
> But I'm just playing devil's advocate.




Speed of sound? I think you mean speed of light. The Concord flew twice the speed of sound throughout the 70's and 80's. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concorde

Or maybe I'm just missing the sarcasm, lol.


----------



## Torq

shotgunshane said:


> Speed of sound? I think you mean speed of light. The Concord flew twice the speed of sound throughout the 70's and 80's. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concorde
> 
> Or maybe I'm just missing the sarcasm, lol.


 

 You're just missing the sarcasm.
  
 My point, as I was just playing devil's advocate, is that just because someone produces a proof of something today, doesn't mean our understanding or knowledge won't change tomorrow.  That was the case with the speed of sound ... and many other things.
  
 But to be clear, I am not, at all, saying I, or anyone else, can _hear_ beyond about 20 KHz.
  
 Concorde was fun, and very useful, to fly on ... shame they cut that option out, makes my traveling a lot more of pain than it used to be.


----------



## funkoid

So coming from a PCM2702 / OPA2604 setup it's definitely be an improvement? 

I can't decide between the dragon, Cambridge Audio Dacmagic xs 1 or 2. Wouldn't mind having some form of physical volume control though as it'll be on my desk in work.


----------



## estreeter

shotgunshane said:


> Speed of sound? I think you mean speed of light. The Concord flew twice the speed of sound throughout the 70's and 80's. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concorde
> 
> Or maybe I'm just missing the sarcasm, lol.


 
  
 <OT Alert>
 The Concord only came to Australia once  - AFAIK - but I was iin a priime position to see it soar majestically over the Sydney skyline. They made a big deal of the fact that Australian authorities had forbidden the pilots to fly at supersonic speed in our airspace - the sonic boom might have upset the chooks which could still be found in inner-city backyards at the time  :
  
 The initial comment may have been sarcasm, but the Concord is now as dead as the dodo, sadly. A win for the flat eath society, it would seem.
  
 </OT>


----------



## Pastapipo

Has anybody have an idea about the ZuperDac vs the DFB?


----------



## waynes world

pastapipo said:


> Has anybody have an idea about the ZuperDac vs the DFB?


 
  
 I'd like to hear that as well. My guess (based on comparisons read between the DFB and DFR) is that the DFB is bassier/darker and the zuperdac more neutral.


----------



## mks100

Just received my DragonFly Black.  I also own a Modi 2/Vali 2 combo and a Geek Out V2.  I'm using Roon w/Tidal > DragonFly Black > Grado SR325e and have the Volume set at 4.  With my Roon w/Tidal  > DragonFly Black > HD600 I have the Volume at  27 - 30.  I have the DragonFly set to WASAPI Exclusive Mode in Roon.  Just curious as to if my Volume Settings seem typical as I couldn't imagine a typical HP being pushed passed 10 - 20 in Roon/Windows.  Did I screw something up?  Thanks in advance.


----------



## fjrabon

for anybody who is using the DFR with an HD800 on occasion through an iPhone (yes I know some people here nearly had a heart attack reading that) the "acoustic" EQ setting in Apple Music settings fixes some of the brightness and lack of bass issues that pairing otherwise has.  
  
 With that, I find it a capable pairing.  It's obviously not pulling everything the HD800 can do, but the DFR accounts for itself well, with the spaciousness and resolution of the HD800 still shining.  It's not quite as dynamic in the transients as the HD800 is capable of when driven well and you have to push the volume on the DFR a bit such that there is a tiny bit of harshness that creeps in.  But the pairing certainly was good enough for a casual listening session in the park or on the couch when I don't want to move my laptop and amp.  
  
 UnEQd I found the pairing too bright, brittle and harsh to be super enjoyable, preferring to simply use another headphone.  But with that Acoustic EQ setting, it was enjoyable.  It's obviously not on the level of a proper amp and DAC with sonarworks calibration software, but yes, it's very good through the humble iPhone Apple Music with acoustic EQ setting-> CCK -> DFR -> ACROLINK cable -> HD800.
  
 This was probably the nail in the coffin that tipped me into selling my beloved HE400i.  As there just aren't a whole lot of usage scenarios left for them for me at this point, as the DFR enabled me to take away "can walk around the house with them" and give that to the HD800.  So, in some ways of thinking the DFR has saved me money, as I can now pocket $300 or whatever the HE400i is selling for used these days.


----------



## estreeter

mks100 said:


> Just received my DragonFly Black.  I also own a Modi 2/Vali 2 combo and a Geek Out V2.  I'm using Roon w/Tidal > DragonFly Black > Grado SR325e and have the Volume set at 4.  With my Roon w/Tidal  > DragonFly Black > HD600 I have the Volume at  27 - 30.  I have the DragonFly set to WASAPI Exclusive Mode in Roon.  Just curious as to if my Volume Settings seem typical as I couldn't imagine a typical HP being pushed passed 10 - 20 in Roon/Windows.  Did I screw something up?  Thanks in advance.


 
  
 All I can offer is that I can give the Windows volume control a nudge (upward) when I go from F2K to Roon, but I'm not using TIDAL FWIW By far the biggest shock has been Media Player Classic (prefer it to VLC Player on my laptop), where I seem to be able to take the Windows volume control up to 40% or so - that would easily deafen me in F2K.
  
 Personally, I think the best results from this DAC are to be had with EVERYTHING at 95-100%, using a seaparte amp to control volume : I'm just not happy using digital sliders for something with so much potential to damage my hearing. I know - it was obvious how the DFB worked before I bought it, but I couldnt resist at the price


----------



## canali

was enjoying the df red tonight with my ipod touch 6, sony xb90ex
 and some fab, classic jimi hendrix 'the watch tower' on
 streaming, taking in a nice sunset in west vancouver.
 what a great little piece the df red is.
  
 compared to the mojo, the df red jis ust so much nicer to hook up, let alone carry around
 (I am trying them both out for a few weeks).
  
 yet so many things really factor in the equa otionf how well
 any thing we're testing sounds....i tried different ear tips tonight
 and yes  while we all read hear about how they can make a diff
 i got it first hand tonight... they alone offered in so much more detail too.
 then there is the quality of the recording we're listening to...and the ambient noise around us.
 ....and quality of the earphones/cans...and the dac/amp...we really do have to nail so many things down.
  
 anyway, enjoy this killer song....jimi's riffs are haunting....no wonder when he first appeared
 on the scene so many up and coming guitarists (eric clapton etc) thought they were 'done' and soon to be out of work.
  
 imagine had jimi not left us so early....


----------



## Muniek66

mks100 said:


> Just received my DragonFly Black.  I also own a Modi 2/Vali 2 combo and a Geek Out V2.  I'm using Roon w/Tidal > DragonFly Black > Grado SR325e and have the Volume set at 4.  With my Roon w/Tidal  > DragonFly Black > HD600 I have the Volume at  27 - 30.  I have the DragonFly set to WASAPI Exclusive Mode in Roon.  Just curious as to if my Volume Settings seem typical as I couldn't imagine a typical HP being pushed passed 10 - 20 in Roon/Windows.  Did I screw something up?  Thanks in advance.


 
  
 Friend, can you compare DragonFly Black with Geek Out V2 (sound quality and characteristic)?


----------



## mks100

muniek66 said:


> Friend, can you compare DragonFly Black with Geek Out V2 (sound quality and characteristic)?


 
 Will do.  Still breaking in and testing the Black.  
 I tried 3 different V1.2's but had issues with IEMs and Fabric Cables inducing noise (ex: VMODA Cable) with each one. No such issues with the Black.
 Through my Laptop using Roon, my main concern with the Black is that once the Volume hits 6/100 with my Fidelio's and Grado's; it becomes unbearably loud.  Would like to have more than a 5 step Volume Control for easy to drive Cans. 
 Through my Moto X Pure w/ USB Audio Player Pro it works perfectly.  Incidentally, was unaware that Tidal can be integrated with USB Audio Player Pro.  Marshmallow automatically up samples to 96 kHz with Roon, Neutron, Tidal and Spotify.  Was very pleased with the Tidal integration.  Did the Rainbow flawlessly.
 At first blush I would say it is much improved over V1.2 and ~ 80% of the Performance of the Geek Out V2.  I am curious if the Red's 64 bit Volume Control would allow for better integration with Roon/Windows?  I will post more impressions as I discover more.  Thank you.


----------



## ChrisSC

Loving my DFR but thinking about picking up an arrow amp for bass/treble controls.  Is it possible to bypass the dragonfly red's amp section so not double-amping when using an arrow amp too?


----------



## mks100

Thinking I may have Super Hearing.  I can't push the Black past 6/100 through Roon/Windows.  Mid 20's with the HD600.  I have all Sound Enhancements turned off in Windows and the Black is running in Exclusive Mode within Roon.


----------



## fjrabon

chrissc said:


> Loving my DFR but thinking about picking up an arrow amp for bass/treble controls.  Is it possible to bypass the dragonfly red's amp section so not double-amping when using an arrow amp too?


 

 not possible to bypass the amp section, as it's integrated with the DAC output, ie the DAC output and the amp output are the same thing on the DFR, they aren't separate circuits.  The amp output volume is controlled by digital attenuation in the DAC.


----------



## estreeter

chrissc said:


> Loving my DFR but thinking about picking up an arrow amp for bass/treble controls.  Is it possible to bypass the dragonfly red's amp section so not double-amping when using an arrow amp too?


 
  
 You wont be 'double-amping' in the conventional sense if Gordon Rankin's advice re the new models is correct. Dont know about the DFR, but I'm convinced that the DFB was designed to allow you to connect an analog cable (from AQ, preferably) to an amp (speake or HA) or powered speakers, and that's exactly how the original DF models were reviewed by the majority of pro reviewers. It's no coincidence that the Red outputs 2.1V at 100% volume - almost identical to the line-out analog signal from many CDPs and desktop DACs.
  
 The issues around double-amping (AFAIK) arose from the relatively feeble output signal that many DAPs put out - nowhere near line-level - but I'll defer to the more technically astute on that. A bigger issue, IMO, was that for many years we were stuck with whatever DAC lived inside our iPod or whatever DAP we were using - that's obviously history now. The big disadvantage of the DF (any model) over something like my ultra-cheap Topping NX2 and other conventional DAC/amps is that you cant separate the DAC from the amp : if you dont like the DAC section, too bad. I'm happy plugging the DF into my NX2 and I'm confident that I'm getting the best of both (cheap) audio toys, especially as the NX2 has the onboard volume control I prefer over the DF's digial approach. I strongly suspect that many of those who havent been happy with their black or red would be shocked by how much better that same chunk of plastic sounds with an external amp, but sadly I no longer have the Auralic Taurus so I guess I'll have to wait for more impressions.


----------



## Smileyko

I am in HK and just 3 days ago I picked up the Hifiman HEX. The instruction says best with 150 hours of burn in. I am on the road for six days so I only brought the RED with me. I am cooking the HEX day and night and I can tell you the RED does it proud. The sound is massive deep and doesn't run out of steam. I will be home in 3 days and try the Mojo on the HEX and lets see?


----------



## SomeGuyDude

smileyko said:


> I am in HK and just 3 days ago I picked up the Hifiman HEX. The instruction says best with 150 hours of burn in. I am on the road for six days so I only brought the RED with me. I am cooking the HEX day and night and I can tell you the RED does it proud. The sound is massive deep and doesn't run out of steam. I will be home in 3 days and try the Mojo on the HEX and lets see?


 
  
 I would LOVE to hear impressions of the HEX with the DFR.


----------



## Smileyko

Thanks friend: I also have the Nighthawk and the PM2 at home. On the red I am just driving it from my Macbook Pro. The volume has to be one click on the Mac louder then the PM2 and two clicks more then the Hawk. So the HEX needs more power to get the same sound level going. That said, the music and I am mostly classical it's no nonesense full out great. Much better then I thought. HEX takes time like the Hawk. But the Hawk too like 10 days cooking and the HEX sounded good from minute one with the RED. I do think however the Mojo will reall make the HEX shine but that's 3 days from now. Thanks.


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## estreeter

I expect that there's a more relevant thread for this, but just wanted to say that I'm totally enjoying *Ne Obliviscaris* from the DFB into my Solo2 - dark material from a dark source, at _Spotify Povo_ bitrates no less, but it sounds glorious. Progressive extreme metal mightn't be everyone's idea of sonic bliss, but the musicianship and production values are definitely a cut above the rest IMO.


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## SomeGuyDude

estreeter said:


> I expect that there's a more relevant thread for this, but just wanted to say that I'm totally enjoying *Ne Obliviscaris* from the DFB into my Solo2 - dark material from a dark source, at _Spotify Povo_ bitrates no less, but it sounds glorious. Progressive extreme metal mightn't be everyone's idea of sonic bliss, but the musicianship and production values are definitely a cut above the rest IMO.


 
  
 I'm a terrible audiophile because I listen to extreme metal almost exclusively with a smattering of hip hop.  Here's my album of choice today:
  

  
 I like that the Solo2 is getting some love, that's a vastly underrated can in audiophile communities IMO.


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## VRacer-111

I'm really liking the DFR I recently got in a few weeks ago. It really drives my headphones well with both my Samsung Galaxy TAB S2 and Windows laptop. Pairs well with the Meier Audio Corda JAZZ-ff amp as well. Currently in the middle of quick run time testing for my android tablet with an accessory power OTG USB cable that came in today, using the Fostex T40RP Mark III. Doing quick 100% to 90% drain time check, first run with USB accessory power plugged in to a charger was 1 hour and 12 minutes. Currently charging back up the Tablet to full capacity to run it again without the accessory power plugged in.


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## balek

I have a DFB wich I use with the jitterbug as a DAC to play FLACs from my PC trough my amp Marantz PM6005 into Qacoustics 3050 speackers.
The sound with DFB is indeed a little bit darker without good details but better separation and soundstage.
So, what do you think, if i buy a DFR will it upgrade the darkness of the black and be better as the Marantz own DAC?

Trimis de pe al meu SM-N9005 folosind Tapatalk


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## Torq

balek said:


> I have a DFB wich I use with the jitterbug as a DAC to play FLACs from my PC trough my amp Marantz PM6005 into Qacoustics 3050 speackers.
> The sound with DFB is indeed a little bit darker without good details but better separation and soundstage.
> So, what do you think, if i buy a DFR will it upgrade the darkness of the black and be better as the Marantz own DAC?
> 
> Trimis de pe al meu SM-N9005 folosind Tapatalk


 

 Playing with my office PC and the DFR and a Jitterbug improved the sound to a useful degree.
  
 Using it with the iPhone 6S ... it goes the other way and it sounds better without the Jitterbug in place.  I assume this is because power-related noise is pretty minimal from the iPhone and the Jitterbug seems to worsen jitter numbers even though it does quite well on eliminating electrical noise.


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## balek

torq said:


> balek said:
> 
> 
> > I have a DFB wich I use with the jitterbug as a DAC to play FLACs from my PC trough my amp Marantz PM6005 into Qacoustics 3050 speackers.
> ...




When using your DFR with jitterbug trough your PC, you listen through cans or speakers?

Trimis de pe al meu SM-N9005 folosind Tapatalk


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## Torq

balek said:


> When using your DFR with jitterbug trough your PC, you listen through cans or speakers?
> 
> Trimis de pe al meu SM-N9005 folosind Tapatalk


 

 Headphones.
  
 It was really only a test, since I don't use USB audio at all at home.
  
 My normal office rig is a Bifrost "4490" feeding an original Lyr; the DFR is just for when I want to travel light (i.e. lighter than would be the case for me to take my Mojo, but not so light I don't even take the DFR).


----------



## estreeter

someguydude said:


> I'm a terrible audiophile because I listen to extreme metal almost exclusively with a smattering of hip hop.  Here's my album of choice today:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I wouldn't have considered any beats headphone without Tyll's review but even with his measurements and subjective praise I doubt they'll ever be seen as worthy peers of the other cans on his wall of fame by 'serious' portaphiles. I've copped more flack for my A-T closed can choices in the past than I have for the solo2 - their loss in both instances.


----------



## balek

torq said:


> balek said:
> 
> 
> > When using your DFR with jitterbug trough your PC, you listen through cans or speakers?
> ...




Understand.
Thanks.

My question is if DFR has a better dac as Marantzs CS 4398 dac.

Trimis de pe al meu SM-N9005 folosind Tapatalk


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## estreeter

mks100 said:


> Thinking I may have Super Hearing.  I can't push the Black past 6/100 through Roon/Windows.  Mid 20's with the HD600.  I have all Sound Enhancements turned off in Windows and the Black is running in Exclusive Mode within Roon.




6 would be painful for me - an external amp was my only escape from that insane gain level. Waaaay back when nwavguy was the Antichrist here, he made special mention of any amp that had issues driving sensitive cans - fortunately they nailed the channel balance from zero volume or mine would be back at the warehouse.


----------



## Torq

balek said:


> Understand.
> Thanks.
> 
> My question is if DFR has a better dac as Marantzs CS 4398 dac.
> ...


 

 That's hard to say.  For a start I'm not, in anyway, a fan of the CS 4398 (I've never found an implementation of it that I got on with).  And I've not heard any Marantz unit in years, in fact the last one I heard might have  been either the CD63 SE or the CD65 SE, which is going back into the late eighties or early nineties.
  
 To put that another way, I'd listen to the DFR via my iPhone before I'd bother with, say, an AK100ii, AK120ii or AK240 ... but that's not necessarily because the DFR is "better" per-se, just that I really don't seem to gel with the CS 4398, no matter what it's in (I have the same issue with the PCM-1704, but not the 1702).


----------



## estreeter

torq said:


> That's hard to say.  For a start I'm not, in anyway, a fan of the CS 4398 (I've never found an implementation of it that I got on with).  And I've not heard any Marantz unit in years, in fact the last one I heard might have  been either the CD63 SE or the CD65 SE, which is going back into the late eighties or early nineties.
> 
> To put that another way, I'd listen to the DFR via my iPhone before I'd bother with, say, an AK100ii, AK120ii or AK240 ... but that's not necessarily because the DFR is "better" per-se, just that I really don't seem to gel with the CS 4398, no matter what it's in (I have the same issue with the PCM-1704, but not the 1702).


 
  
 So much is down to implementation - I've had several SABRE-equipped DACs and I couldnt put my hand on my heart and say that DAC A sounded just like DAC B simply because it had the same set of numbers on the silicon. All I will say re the CS4398 is that I wasnt blown away by the DAC section in my PM6005 but the overall presentation made sense with the bright speakers I had at the time. My SA-14S1 had a significantly more capable DAC - as it should have for the price difference - but I just didnt enjoy it with anything other than classical and Steely Dan - in short, the 'audiophile approved' music that forms a very small segment of what I listen to on a daily basis. Live and learn, I guess, but at least we can remove the room from the equation with headphones and that's a serious win.


----------



## Torq

estreeter said:


> So much is down to implementation - I've had several SABRE-equipped DACs and I couldnt put my hand on my heart and say that DAC A sounded just like DAC B simply because it had the same set of numbers on the silicon. All I will say re the CS4398 is that I wasnt blown away by the DAC section in my PM6005 but the overall presentation made sense with the bright speakers I had at the time. My SA-14S1 had a significantly more capable DAC - as it should have for the price difference - but I just didnt enjoy it with anything other than classical and Steely Dan - in short, the 'audiophile approved' music that forms a very small segment of what I listen to on a daily basis. Live and learn, I guess, but at least we can remove the room from the equation with headphones and that's a serious win.


 

 It's true that there are differences in the sound, based on the particular implementation - and that the implementation is, overall, more important than the converter IC (provided some reasonable minimum level of performance).  And I wouldn't go as far as to say that I think all, for example, CS 4398 based DACs, have a similar _sound_.  But I will say that, collectively,  they've never been something that I've gotten on that well with.  The PCM-1704 is another example - regardless of implementation, I just don't care for the bottom end on DACs that use it.
  
 Also, for a given IC, there are only so many ways to change up your implementation.  Yes, you could build the power-supply or regulation a million different ways, but the chip still needs the same inputs, voltage and current values/ranges.  Similarly, it'll only accept data in specific forms or manners - so you can vary how you implement servicing it's requirement, but it doesn't change the requirement.
  
 In other words, a thoughtless implementation will certainly sound worse than a good one - but the operational parameters of the converter remain the same.  So there are limits, at least up until your I/V and analog stage, as to what you can affect.


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## SearchOfSub

smileyko said:


> Thanks friend: I also have the Nighthawk and the PM2 at home. On the red I am just driving it from my Macbook Pro. The volume has to be one click on the Mac louder then the PM2 and two clicks more then the Hawk. So the HEX needs more power to get the same sound level going. That said, the music and I am mostly classical it's no nonesense full out great. Much better then I thought. HEX takes time like the Hawk. But the Hawk too like 10 days cooking and the HEX sounded good from minute one with the RED. I do think however the Mojo will reall make the HEX shine but that's 3 days from now. Thanks.





Hello smileyko, I have same setup wuth you regarding the NH. Its going from Mojo to NH using silver dragon V3 headphone cables. I have heard good things about dragonfly red with NH so I am thinking of selling Mojo. I would be very interested in hearing your comparison with Mojo vs Dragonfly Red with Nighthawks. Please do post your impressions when you get a chance, thanks and happy listening!


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## waileaguy

Using an Audioquest Dragonfly Red and Jitterbug out of my laptop driving a pair of Beyerdynamic T1 v.2 with absolutely no volume problems whatsoever. Volume control at 40% for most music and great dynamics.


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## Smileyko

Dear Search: I just got back to Vietnam and the Mojo after 5 days only with the DFR and the new HEX. I can only tell you I loved the RED burning in the HEX since RED is all I carry on the road. Now home I am back to Mojo. I urge you to audition carefully what your ears tells you. I am a newbie a rookie and an impulse buyer that bought all this gear unseen and unheard. Just from reading Head Fi I have now 4 headphones- Grado 500e, PM2, the Hawk and now the X. I also have the RED and the 1.2 plus the Mojo. I am waiting for my 4th after market cable from Frank of Toxic Cable to go with the Silver Dragon and Labkable and Effect Thor Silver 2+. If it's me I'd keep the Mojo and listen to the RED at a shop if you can. Tell you something else. Just the last 5 days I am locked on to the Woo WA7 and I might plunge into the tube world just from reading this site here. Don't be me my friend, listen to your won ears and heart. Mine just tell me to buy buy buy.......


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## CactusPete23

Has anyone noticed that the headphone jack in their DFR wiggles some; though the headphone connection itself is tight?  Not sure if mine is defective or it's mounted in foam, rubber ,or something similar inside ?  I can feel and see the jack socket move a little.
  
 Not affecting sound that I can tell...


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## SomeGuyDude

cactuspete23 said:


> Has anyone noticed that the headphone jack in their DFR wiggles some; though the headphone connection itself is tight?  Not sure if mine is defective or it's mounted in foam, rubber ,or something similar inside ?  I can feel and see the jack socket move a little.
> 
> Not affecting sound that I can tell...


 
  
 That's because the circuitry inside isn't held fast to the casing. My DF1.2 actually had the entire front plate fall off so I could just pull the shell right off. It's nothing to worry about.


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## CactusPete23

someguydude said:


> That's because the circuitry inside isn't held fast to the casing. My DF1.2 actually had the entire front plate fall off so I could just pull the shell right off. It's nothing to worry about.


 
 Thanks!  Good to know !


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## shuto77

I'm reading really good things about the Dragonfly Red. Has anyone tried to power the MrSpeakers Alpha Prime with it? 

One HeadFier said it did well with the Primes, but I just wanted a second opinion. 

Thanks in advance.


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## good sound

I recently picked up a DFR. The goal hopefully, was to end the need to carry two devices with me all the time. My DAP a (FiiO X5-original) and my phone a Moto G3. I had read and  heard a lot of very good things about the DFR and the price was very reasonable, so I decided why not give it a try. I also purchased the Audioquest Dragontail Carbon OTG Android cable $25, probably overkill and an Audioquest Jitterbug digital filter to go with it. If I could even get the sound quality coming form my Android phone to a level that was even just in the same ballpark as my FiiO, I would be very happy.
  
 I already had the full paid version of USB Audio Player Pro installed on the Moto and lots of music files of all different bit-rates, all 16/44.1 FLAC or higher, loaded up as well so set-up was very straight forward and simple. Did I get the result I was looking for? Well, sort of, maybe, I think, I don't know, not really. There were certainly some areas of the sound that were better with the Moto/DFR combo than my FiiO and there were definitely some aspects that i didn't like so much. The DFR certainly had more clarity, and reproduced much more detail than the FiiO with more top end air and sparkle. The DFR also imaged better with my Oppo PM3's than the X5, but it was also brighter, or harsher if you like, in the high frequencies, voices had an unwanted edge to them and there was a slight sense of the whole not being as well integrated as with the FiiO. It was as if the increased separation between instruments was actually decreasing the sense of the whole, if that makes any sense. Also the DFR didn't sound as full and rich as the FiiO. 
  
 I will openly admit that when I first heard these files, which are identical between both devices BTW, with the Moto and the DFR I really liked what I heard, but when I started doing direct comparisons between the FiiO X5 and the Moto/DFR combo, suddenly I wasn't as enthralled as I was initially with the Moto/DFR combo. I have always leaned somewhat to the warmer side of neutral camp and i figured maybe this was the issue. Maybe the DFR was just presenting reality and i didn't really like it, taking into account my admitted preferences and my being used to the sound of the X5 which does tend to generally lean to the warm side of neutral as well.
  
 I started looking at a considering other options. In my search I came across the LH Labs Geekout V2. The specs on this device were outstanding, better than the DFR's, even more power, better DAC, higher resolution format capability, and the reviews on sound quality were equally impressive. There was even a just released V2+ version with a built in battery designed for Android/iOS use. Yes the price was considerably higher than the DFR, but still reasonable especially when I found a mint condition used V2+ for sale at a great price local to me. I was in the process of arranging to buy the used LH Labs when the seller informed me that he was unable to procure the Chord Mojo he was chasing down and he was therefor pulling his Geekout ad. Well, that threw a wrench into things. Looks like I would be stuck lugging two devices around for a bit longer as I just couldn't resolve myself to the sound of the DFR with my phone and UAPP.
  
 Then something that I also came across in my research came back to me. I remembered seeing some web hits for the Onkyo HF player. I remembered having that particular app on my phone at one time. I had basically all of the better known audiophile player apps on my phone at one time, Neutron, Poweramp, Hiby and so on, but had deleted all of the other ones after paying for USB Audio Player Pro. I wondered if the Onkyo player with the unlocked HF key would produce a better result. I was initially hesitant. How could using a different player make any real difference using the same DAC/Amp. I mean wouldn't the DFR be responsible for the bulk, if not all, of of the sound signature? We have all read from people when discussing home audio, who claim that you should spend the vast majority of your budget on the DAC and spend what's left on any old transport because the transport isn't going to make much if any difference in the sound. Wouldn't this basically be the same thing? Aren't players like UAPP and Poweramp and Onkyo HF equivalent to the transport in a two piece home disc playback system? This seemed to make sense to me.
  
 I decided what was the harm? I would re-install the Onkyo app, pay for the native, bypass Androids DAC, hi-resolution capability and sync 'er up and see if there was any difference. Much to my surprise the difference tuned out to be very significant and virtually 100% for the better. Virtually all of the negative sound signature elements I had experienced and heard with the UAPP/DFR combo were gone. The sound with the Onkyo HF combined with the DFR was much better. Gone was the harshness and the sense of disjointedness. Gone was the edge and glare heard with vocals. Yes some of the clarity and instrument separation and detail was also lost, but overall the sound of the whole was much more organic and natural sounding than with UAPP.
  
 I was somewhat shocked to be completely truthful. How could this be? I checked to make sure that i may have not set things up correctly. Nope, everything was right, I checked and re-checked. I must be imagining it, so I proceeded to do some direct comparisons with identical files with the UAPP app and with each track my initial impressions were confirmed. The differences were easy to hear. I would actually be confident that i would be able to discern between the two apps 100% of the time in a controlled blind A/B comparison. I don't know how to explain this. Actually I don't really care. I don't find myself obsessed with tracking down the reasons why. Now, in direct comparison to my FiiO X5, my Moto/Onkyo HF combo sounds very similar to the X5 listening to identical files and possibly even slightly better overall although the differences here are much more subtle and harder to pin down.
  
 The moral of this whole long winded story is don't ever assume that any long accepted truth is absolute gospel when it comes to the world of music reproduction. Take the time and do the comparison if you can. I am now completely happy with my Moto/DFR combo and won't be looking to upgrade the Draqgonfly Red anytime soon. Anyone want to buy a used X5, lol?


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## estreeter

@good sound, most of us have been there - I spent days configuring Windows 2012 Server so I could run niche playback software that others raved about, only to find myself happily using F2k because it allowed me to use my computer for other things. I also play around with mpd on Linux when the mood strikes but to date the only playback software that sounds appreciably better to me is Room and JRMC - granted, I haven't paid to unlock my copy of HF Player and its something I'll consider with the caveat that I remain wary of placebo in instances like this. Just try kicking back and enjoying your music for a day or two - its amazing how many details leap out when we just let it happen.


----------



## good sound

estreeter said:


> @good sound, most of us have been there - I spent days configuring Windows 2012 Server so I could run niche playback software that others raved about, only to find myself happily using F2k because it allowed me to use my computer for other things. I also play around with mpd on Linux when the mood strikes but to date the only playback software that sounds appreciably better to me is Room and JRMC - granted, I haven't paid to unlock my copy of HF Player and its something I'll consider with the caveat that I remain wary of placebo in instances like this. Just try kicking back and enjoying your music for a day or two - its amazing how many details leap out when we just let it happen.




Just to clarify, none of my comments refer to any comparison between the free version of the Onkyo HF app and the paid unlocked version of the app. I paid to upgrade solely because it was the only way for me to hear my higher resolution files at their native bit-rate with the app. I certainly hope I did not give any indication that I heard or that there exists any difference in sound quality when playing back lower resolution files on either version of the Onkyo HF app. I cannot make an assertion either way as I did not perform any comparison between the sound of the two versions of the app.


----------



## Rurouni

Thinking of purchasing either the DFB or DFR for my iPhone to pair with my IE800s. Have any users tried both with similar equipment combos? Would be interested to understand how both affect the sound signature coming from the IE800s.
  
 I would like for either to help the IE800 better reach its full potential


----------



## pkcpga

rurouni said:


> Thinking of purchasing either the DFB or DFR for my iPhone to pair with my IE800s. Have any users tried both with similar equipment combos? Would be interested to understand how both affect the sound signature coming from the IE800s.
> 
> I would like for either to help the IE800 better reach its full potential




I have the ie80 and recently demo'd the ie800 with my dfr, dfb and mojo. Both the ie80 and 800 don't mesh well with the dfb much too warm of a sound with recessed vocals. The dfr thins the sound of both the 80 and 800, sounds pretty good to me but you lose a decent amount of deep bass. With the mojo both sound drastically more detailed, separated and better bass without causing boom. But of the two df the red was better just lost a bit of the low end.


----------



## Rurouni

pkcpga said:


> I have the ie80 and recently demo'd the ie800 with my dfr, dfb and mojo. Both the ie80 and 800 don't mesh well with the dfb much too warm of a sound with recessed vocals. The dfr thins the sound of both the 80 and 800, sounds pretty good to me but you lose a decent amount of deep bass. With the mojo both sound drastically more detailed, separated and better bass with causing boom. But if the two df the red was better just lost a bit of the low end.


 

 Thanks much for the info! When you mention that you lose a decent amount of deep bass with the DFR, did you notice any improvement in bass detail?


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## pkcpga

rurouni said:


> Thanks much for the info! When you mention that you lose a decent amount of deep bass with the DFR, did you notice any improvement in bass detail?



Not with the df's, the red just makes the bass more stockade style of rapid less deep sounds not really any more defined. The mojo brings out more layering in the bass and separates much better. But for the price it's not bad, I just had two faulty reds already and had to exchange the first than finally just returned the second and gave up.


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## JohannLiebert

Why is the black less loud thab my plain s6 headphone jack? I cant drive my audeze sine like that


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## SpiderNhan

johannliebert said:


> Why is the black less loud thab my plain s6 headphone jack? I cant drive my audeze sine like that


 
 You have to use USB Audio Player Pro to get full volume control of the Dragonfly. The app costs about $9, but you can find the trial link here:

 http://www.extreamsd.com/index.php/uapp-trial


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## CactusPete23

pkcpga said:


> Not with the df's, the red just makes the bass more stockade style of rapid less deep sounds not really any more defined. The mojo brings out more layering in the bass and separates much better. But for the price it's not bad, I just had two faulty reds already and had to exchange the first than finally just returned the second and gave up.


 
 Can you explain the problems with "the two faulty reds" above ?   Had not heard of many (any?)  others having "faulty"  DFRs... So would like to understand problems you've seen.  Thanks!


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## JohannLiebert

spidernhan said:


> You have to use USB Audio Player Pro to get full volume control of the Dragonfly. The app costs about $9, but you can find the trial link here:
> 
> http://www.extreamsd.com/index.php/uapp-trial




Oh wow now it has some reserves! Sound opened up quite nicely but to need an app for this was not intended...money and some extra hassle... i will try with movies later if the volume control of the black works there...


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## JohannLiebert

Ok now the app makes my headphonr shine, but no sound coming from other players and video. Only from usb pro player...


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## Torq

johannliebert said:


> Ok now the app makes my headphonr shine, but no sound coming from other players and video. Only from usb pro player...




You need to exit UAPP fully, not just switch apps. Otherwise it'll hold on to the connection.


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## pkcpga

cactuspete23 said:


> Can you explain the problems with "the two faulty reds" above ?   Had not heard of many (any?)  others having "faulty"  DFRs... So would like to understand problems you've seen.  Thanks!



If you read through the post you'll see there are a decent number of issues with the dfr not many with the dfb but my red worked great for a few week than it started to not connect so I had to disconnect and reconnect. Than it started to randomly disconnect in the middle of a song. I switched that one out and it was the first issue my dealer had. The second one had a constant hiss sound that wouldn't go away, when I brought that back two weeks later my dealer said the dfr has had about 1/3 back in returns or more now.


----------



## estreeter

johannliebert said:


> Why is the black less loud thab my plain s6 headphone jack? I cant drive my audeze sine like that


 
  
 Are you sure you have the volume maxed into the DFB ? If I took the volume anywhere near 50% on my Lenovo tablet - *even from the stock Android Music app* - and handed you my Solo2 on-ears, I doubt that you'd even be willing to put them within 6 inches of your ears. Same goes for all of my IEMs including the SE425 - none of the above are hard to drive 'phones, but I dont consider the DFB a weak source into a portable headphone. Tyll's measurements seem to point to a reasonably efficient planar design compared to its larger cousins:
  
_With 96mVrms needed to achieve 90dB at the ear, the SINE is modestly less voltage efficient than most headphones in this category, but a smartphone will drive these cans to solid listening levels._
  
 Unless the S6 has some serious amplifier grunt onboard or I'm missing something here, I'd be inclined  to return your unit and ask for a replacement.


----------



## mks100

Upgraded from the Black to the Red.  Black was louder and warmer for sure.  Red is more refined and nuanced.  Would recommend the Black to anyone and everyone.  The Red for those looking to pay 100% more for a 20% improvement in sound quality.  That's me.


----------



## SpiderNhan

estreeter said:


> Are you sure you have the volume maxed into the DFB ? If I took the volume anywhere near 50% on my Lenovo tablet - *even from the stock Android Music app* - and handed you my Solo2 on-ears, I doubt that you'd even be willing to put them within 6 inches of your ears. Same goes for all of my IEMs including the SE425 - none of the above are hard to drive 'phones, but I dont consider the DFB a weak source into a portable headphone. Tyll's measurements seem to point to a reasonably efficient planar design compared to its larger cousins:
> 
> _With 96mVrms needed to achieve 90dB at the ear, the SINE is modestly less voltage efficient than most headphones in this category, but a smartphone will drive these cans to solid listening levels._
> 
> Unless the S6 has some serious amplifier grunt onboard or I'm missing something here, I'd be inclined  to return your unit and ask for a replacement.


 
 I have an S6 and can confirm that Samsung's USB audio implementation of the Dragonfly is very quiet with stock apps. My phone's headphone out can get 40-50% louder on max volume than the Red using stock apps.


----------



## estreeter

spidernhan said:


> I have an S6 and can confirm that Samsung's USB audio implementation of the Dragonfly is very quiet with stock apps. My phone's headphone out can get 40-50% louder on max volume than the Red using stock apps.


 
  
 OK - it appears that ZTE and Lenovo have implemented USB audio more successfully on their sub-$100 devices than Samsung have on their flagship phone - I stand corrected.
  
 (by 'more successfully', I mean that when you give the source full volume, the DAC connected to the device reacts accordingly. Just seems odd, but in an era of litigation-happy consumers I guess it makes sense)


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## CactusPete23

pkcpga said:


> If you read through the post you'll see there are a decent number of issues with the dfr not many with the dfb but my red worked great for a few week than it started to not connect so I had to disconnect and reconnect. Than it started to randomly disconnect in the middle of a song. I switched that one out and it was the first issue my dealer had. The second one had a constant hiss sound that wouldn't go away, when I brought that back two weeks later my dealer said the dfr has had about 1/3 back in returns or more now.


 
 Thanks.  Boy, you have had bad luck.   Most "problems" that I've read seem to be with the DFR not working with Some Android Phones, and with Not working properly with stock Android Apps.  I'd have guessed that most returns were because of the Android Issues and not an actual DFR defect.  But your 2 bad for 2 DFR's tested is pretty poor...


----------



## estreeter

mks100 said:


> Upgraded from the Black to the Red.  Black was louder and warmer for sure.  Red is more refined and nuanced.  Would recommend the Black to anyone and everyone.  The Red for those looking to pay 100% more for a 20% improvement in sound quality.  That's me.


 
  
 Thanks for the feedback - seems to gel with a lot of the impressions given by those who have both. I'd like to hear both into a nice nearfield speaker rig, using the DAC section only but given that this is a headphone forum I'll leave it there.


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## mks100

estreeter said:


> Thanks for the feedback - seems to gel with a lot of the impressions given by those who have both. I'd like to hear both into a nice nearfield speaker rig, using the DAC section only but given that this is a headphone forum I'll leave it there.


 
 DragonFly Red -> Vali 2 -> MB42x.  Impressions are the same in terms of the difference between the Red and the Black.  With the Vali 2 in the chain as a Preamp and/or Headphone Amp it basically defeats the Volume advantages of the Black IMO.  I can see where the Black would be a consideration for someone with higher impedance Headphones and the need for greater output.  I just feel the Red is more refined and aside from driving a set of HD600s from a Smart Phone, the Black falls short of the Red.  I have my Volume @ 90% with my HD600s through my Moto X Pure using USB Audio Player Pro.  Same Volume was achieved @ 70% with the Black.  Again, either the Black or the Red is a great choice.  To each their own.  There is a euphoric quality to the sound through both.  I sold my Geek Out V2 after hearing the Black & Red.  I'm sure the Mojo would be even better.  I just can't rationalize the upgrade.  Highly recommended.


----------



## pkcpga

cactuspete23 said:


> Thanks.  Boy, you have had bad luck.   Most "problems" that I've read seem to be with the DFR not working with Some Android Phones, and with Not working properly with stock Android Apps.  I'd have guessed that most returns were because of the Android Issues and not an actual DFR defect.  But your 2 bad for 2 DFR's tested is pretty poor...



My local dealer stated most common issues with the dfr are hiss in one ear or both ears or volume level in both ears not the same or one ear cuts out. They said there seems to be some quality control issues but I guess if your lucky and get a good one it's not bad for the price. No real issues with the black as of yet but sound quality is nothing special just louder and more bass than your phone DAC.


----------



## Set845

pkcpga said:


> My local dealer stated most common issues with the dfr are hiss in one ear or both ears or volume level in both ears not the same or one ear cuts out. They said there seems to be some quality control issues but I guess if your lucky and get a good one it's not bad for the price. No real issues with the black as of yet but sound quality is nothing special just louder and more bass than your phone DAC.




Nothing special? What phone DAC would that be? My DFR blows away my iPhone 6 DAC. You're the only one in this thread that mentioned volume level differentials and cutting out in one ear. There must be a lot of lucky people in this forum.


----------



## pkcpga

set845 said:


> Nothing special? What phone DAC would that be? My DFR blows away my iPhone 6 DAC. You're the only one in this thread that mentioned volume level differentials and cutting out in one ear. There must be a lot of lucky people in this forum.



Dfr is much better, stated dfb is not much better only louder and more bass, not very detailed the way the red is.


----------



## Set845

pkcpga said:


> Dfr is much better, stated dfb is not much better only louder and more bass, not very detailed the way the red is.




Ok. I haven't heard the DFB so I can't comment but I am having a hard time believing that. Sorry, I'm not buying it. I'd think at $100 cheaper than the red, the DFB is a better deal. From what I've read about the black everywhere, it's a real upgrade to most phone DACs.


----------



## SomeGuyDude

set845 said:


> Ok. I haven't heard the DFB so I can't comment but I am having a hard time believing that. Sorry, I'm not buying it. I'd think at $100 cheaper than the red, the DFB is a better deal. From what I've read about the black everywhere, it's a real upgrade to most phone DACs.


 
 It definitely is a big upgrade, it's essentially the old DF1.2 which was an awesome purchase. The Red is just an upgrade from that, and it's made more for "desktop" setups. 
  
 I'm sure SOME phones have a comparable DAC but even then I'd say just giving it the boost is worth it.


----------



## Set845

someguydude said:


> It definitely is a big upgrade, it's essentially the old DF1.2 which was an awesome purchase. The Red is just an upgrade from that, and it's made more for "desktop" setups.
> 
> I'm sure SOME phones have a comparable DAC but even then I'd say just giving it the boost is worth it.




Ok I had the 1.2. That's what I thought. I liked the 1.2 very much but I gave it to my brother when I bought the red. The red is defiantly an upgrade to the 1.2.


----------



## brent75

pkcpga said:


> My local dealer stated most common issues with the dfr are hiss in one ear or both ears or volume level in both ears not the same or one ear cuts out. They said there seems to be some quality control issues but *I guess if your lucky and get a good one it's not bad for the price*. No real issues with the black as of yet but sound quality is nothing special just louder and more bass than your phone DAC.


 
 I feel the bolded part is a completely misleading and inaccurate thing to say. You should have instead typed "if you're unlucky and get a bad one" rather than the other way around.
  
 Getting one that works is not luck. It's expected, and pretty much what every indication suggests is it's the rule not the exception. Your post in this thread is the first time I've ever read anywhere about QC issues...whereas what you just typed is the equivalent of saying the DFR is the Fidelio X2 all over again.


----------



## caenlenfromOCN

For anyone wondering, I paired the Dragonfly Black with Jitterbug and my K7xx, going from my laptop, sounds noticeably better than my Schiit Modi 2 and Magni 2 stack.  The Schiit Stack is not as smooth treble wise, and quite harsh with the K7xx... I am very impressed how well this Dragonfly combo pairs with K7xx, bass is hitting harder and everything...
  
 I am still going back and forth if I want to keep the Jitterbug with it or not, I can notice some difference when it is not there... not sure if that difference is worth $50 yet though


----------



## pkcpga

brent75 said:


> I feel the bolded part is a completely misleading and inaccurate thing to say. You should have instead typed "if you're unlucky and get a bad one" rather than the other way around.
> 
> Getting one that works is not luck. It's expected, and pretty much what every indication suggests is it's the rule not the exception. Your post in this thread is the first time I've ever read anywhere about QC issues...whereas what you just typed is the equivalent of saying the DFR is the Fidelio X2 all over again.



Not for me two strikes and I'm done. But if you read the whole post back when the dfr came out there are several quality control issues posted but it's been a bit and maybe they've ironed them out. As with home speakers I'm strong believer in the amp is just as important as the speaker to get great sound, yes a $2,500 speaker sound fairly good with a $500 Yamaha or marantz amp but doesn't reach its potential until you spend a similar amount on its power, same follows for me with headphones. There some counterparts that sound a step above their price like the dfr but for me the mojo sounds as good as many double its price and about 95% as good as my naim which is 6 times its price. For under $200 nothing in my opinion can beat the dfr except it's own quality control from my experience. While under a grand I haven't found anything that touches the amazing DAC on the mojo, actually nothing I've heard that's portable has a better DAC. But the mojo does get hot if you try to use it while it's charging so it too is not perfect, but closest I've found in portable, so far, that works directly with a phone or AK. So I guess it all depends on at what level of sound quality are you happy with, people spend 10k on home systems and listen to them through Apple airplay instead if spending $500 on blue sound and getting title. The potential is there, how much of it are you happy with.


----------



## caenlenfromOCN

Some of the hardest to drive headphones in recent memory are the Fostex T50rp Mark 3, and T20rp Mark 3... I have my Dragonfly Black/Jitterbug on 100 volume in windows and spotify, and its perfect. Literally perfect. i don't want a notch louder, and it sounds loads better than my schiit stack v2... smoother vocals... bass is going even deeper... wow... I am very very impressed... I thought I was going to have to buy Dragonfly Red to get the ampage power for these planar magnetics.
  
 I think Dragonfly Black and Jitterbug are my end game honestly... K7xx and now my T20rp mark 3's... i need to turn volume downt o 90 actually its so loud... but im partying and drinking tonight and EDM needs 100 volume on these babies DDDD


----------



## estreeter

caenlenfromocn said:


> Some of the hardest to drive headphones in recent memory are the Fostex T50rp Mark 3, and T20rp Mark 3... I have my Dragonfly Black/Jitterbug on 100 volume in windows and spotify, and its perfect. Literally perfect. i don't want a notch louder, and it sounds loads better than my schiit stack v2... smoother vocals... bass is going even deeper... wow... I am very very impressed... I thought I was going to have to buy Dragonfly Red to get the ampage power for these planar magnetics.
> 
> *I think Dragonfly Black and Jitterbug are my end game honestly.*.. K7xx and now my T20rp mark 3's... i need to turn volume downt o 90 actually its so loud... but *im partying and drinking tonight and EDM needs 100 volume on these babies DDDD*


 
  
 Riiiight - as the lads over at Audiokarma like to say '_sometimes you need to just spend the money on beer_ !' - no denying that it works  





  
 Guys, I've been  through this whole 'this thing doesnt sound any better than my Macbook Pro / smartphone / Fiio DAP' etc etc several times since I joined HF, and you'll find quite a few opinions to that effect in the Amazon comments for every budget (< $500 or thereabouts) DAC/amp out there. I really dont have a problem with it - I didnt buy the DFB to help AQ sell more to Head-Fiers or Amazonians. What I do question is the incredible thrash that accompanies so many of these products - everything from IEMs to desktop amps being sent back within 72 hours because they didnt blow the new owner's mind on first listen. Even if you're a complete burn-in skeptic, surely there's something to be said for persevering with new gear a little longer than that ? I might be an old coot, but the only issue I have with the DFB is the crazy gain at low volumes, and I've come to terms with that - not sure what else I could have replaced it with for 149AUD but I can see why DFR owners may have been keen to move on to the next toy on their list.
  
 As for smartphone DACs being the equal of the latest Dragonfly's, most of us have seen the claim that if the iPhone was manufactured in the States, Apple would need to charge 15K for each new model. I'd like to think that somewhere in the middle of all that whizbang R&D they've thrown some money at the hardware and software that makes iTunes - and the iTunes Store - an attractive proposition for customers. The other factor is that IEM manufacturers must surely target the flagship smartphones with their designs - not much point using the latest Fiio or HiFiMan whizbang DAP as a baseline when Apple, Samsung and HTC outsell them by a gazillion to one. Even my ZTE phone sounds reasonably good with the CX5.0G - Sennheiser obviously wanted it to sound good straight from that headphone socket. Where that phone - and my tablet - really fall down is in the circuitry they've dedicated to amping the analog signal, and that's presumably the gap that AQ, Fiio and others are looking to fill with USB OTG DAC/amps. Every Android device I own prompts me when I try to take the volume past 85% (our buses must be the noisiest in the developed world..), and there's precious little headroom at that point anyway - if your portable device is powering your cans to your satisfaction, be happy, but the DFB makes a lot more sense to me in that environment than it does from my laptop - horses for courses.
  
 Perhaps our chug-a-lug buddy has the right idea - less time agonising over gear and more time enjoying our music. Have a good one.


----------



## Duncan

I have been out of this thread for a while, but the comment that the mojo is only a little bigger made me chuckle, I know what I'd rather have in my pants pocket (not withstanding the fact that the DFs do not seemingly suffer from RFI / EMI)... 

As much as I now, for out on the road use an LG G5 plus B&O module (which beats both the mojo and the DFR on the size stakes), the DFR has found residency on my Yoga 3 Pro, just wish it didn't default to 24bit, but guess in nitpicking there, as it sounds better to my ears than via OTG.


----------



## JohannLiebert

Tested with huawei and samsung tablets and I dont have volume control. I guess if you want to use these dragonflies without 3rd party app, apple is the best way to go.


----------



## fjrabon

To me the DFR strikes the right balance of performance gains and portability. As much as I loved the Mojo it was too bulky to be reality portable, but controls were too clunky to really be a desktop unit. I also use the DFR on my laptop a decent amount at work. Some days I don't feel like bringing in the m9XX to work, and the DFR is perfectly fine for at work use with my THX00. Endgame? I mean, depends on what you value. My m9XX-> TorpedoIII -> HD800 setup would be hard to give up. But I perfectly enjoy the DFR for what it is. Before the DFR I was a "never use portable amps" guy. The minor boost in SQ wasn't worth the hassle of a portable system. The DFR is little more than an extension of the cable so I finally found one that was worth it to me. It doesn't require charging of batteries, can fit in my hand while holding my phone. It's just right for what it is.


----------



## estreeter

johannliebert said:


> Tested with huawei and samsung tablets and I dont have volume control. I guess if you want to use these dragonflies without 3rd party app, apple is the best way to go.


 
  
 I assume that volume control is working from a laptop/PC ? I have no problem using the volume control on my Lenovo tablet - it may simply be the way Huawei and Samsung have implented USB audio on their tablets. The main Android DAC thread should have a mountain of info on Samsung devices - if others are able to control the volume from those devices, you may have a defective Dragonfly but diagnosis from afar is always a tricky business.


----------



## caenlenfromOCN

I have a $30 gift card on Amazon and nothing I want to buy. I am considering refunding my DFB and grabbing the DFR for $170 free ship no tax from one of the sellers on there.  My question is, I also bought Jitterbug and I think it does benefit DFB some, but if I am spending that kind of money, I would like to think I don't need Jitterbug anymore, which would bring the DFR price for me down to $120... 
  
 Just curious what you guys think, just stick with Jitterbug and DFB?  (I do like warmer sounding DAC's and I read DFB is warmer than DFR), is this true? I know for a fact its either the Red or Black for me though, because I do not like my Schiit Stack v2, it sounds to harsh compared to DFB.
  
  
 (fyi this will be my home and mobile dac/amp, I am traveling Europe for a year so am on laptop only setup)


----------



## SomeGuyDude

caenlenfromocn said:


> I have a $30 gift card on Amazon and nothing I want to buy. I am considering refunding my DFB and grabbing the DFR for $170 free ship no tax from one of the sellers on there.  My question is, I also bought Jitterbug and I think it does benefit DFB some, but if I am spending that kind of money, I would like to think I don't need Jitterbug anymore, which would bring the DFR price for me down to $120...
> 
> Just curious what you guys think, just stick with Jitterbug and DFB?  (I do like warmer sounding DAC's and I read DFB is warmer than DFR), is this true? I know for a fact its either the Red or Black for me though, because I do not like my Schiit Stack v2, it sounds to harsh compared to DFB.
> 
> ...


 
  
 TBH the DFR doesn't need the Jitterbug. It's nice, I'm sure, but the signal it puts out is VERY clean regardless of source.


----------



## caenlenfromOCN

someguydude said:


> TBH the DFR doesn't need the Jitterbug. It's nice, I'm sure, but the signal it puts out is VERY clean regardless of source.


 
  
 Awesome. Well that answers my question then, I am looking at DFR for only $120 out of pocket.  Done deal, thanks man.
  
 Edit:  and honestly the black sticking out of the jitterbug and the jitterbug sticking out of laptop was just an eye sore, lol


----------



## dejanh

I'm new to the forum. Just recently picked up a Dragonfly Red to use with my iPhone 6s Plus and a pair of Denon AH-MM400s. The sound is amazing but I am finding that the Red is massively draining my battery. If I just leave it plugged in, doing nothing, it appears to drain the battery some 4%-6% per hour. This is completely passive drain. The device says that it has a standby state where the Dragonfly LED should be red, but mine is always magenta, even if there is nothing playing back, all apps are shut off, and the phone is in airplane mode. With playback I would say that my drain is at least 10% per hour if not more. That's very high. 

I'm using the new Lightning to USB 3 adapter, so I do have the ability to charge and playback at the same time, but the reason why I got the Red was because it is supposed to have a low battery drain and is very portable. I did not realize that I'd need to have the device on a charger for long listening sessions or for that matter any listening sessions. 

Any thoughts? Am I looking at a defective Red? Should the standby be activating? Is everyone's behaving the same and what kind of battery drain is everyone seeing?


----------



## caenlenfromOCN

dejanh said:


> I'm new to the forum. Just recently picked up a Dragonfly Red to use with my iPhone 6s Plus and a pair of Denon AH-MM400s. The sound is amazing but I am finding that the Red is massively draining my battery. If I just leave it plugged in, doing nothing, it appears to drain the battery some 4%-6% per hour. This is completely passive drain. The device says that it has a standby state where the Dragonfly LED should be red, but mine is always magenta, even if there is nothing playing back, all apps are shut off, and the phone is in airplane mode. With playback I would say that my drain is at least 10% per hour if not more. That's very high.
> 
> I'm using the new Lightning to USB 3 adapter, so I do have the ability to charge and playback at the same time, but the reason why I got the Red was because it is supposed to have a low battery drain and is very portable. I did not realize that I'd need to have the device on a charger for long listening sessions or for that matter any listening sessions.
> 
> Any thoughts? Am I looking at a defective Red? Should the standby be activating? Is everyone's behaving the same and what kind of battery drain is everyone seeing?


 
 I don't mean to come off as rude, but its such a tiny thing, why not just remove it altogether when not using it?


----------



## dejanh

I think you missed my point. Of course I can disconnect it when I'm not using it. What I want to understand is why the battery drain is so high even when the device is in "standby" (or is that perhaps the problem because it seemingly never goes into standby pointing to a firmware bug?). High standby battery drain means that active battery drain is even worse. Reading through the last 15 pages or so of this thread I can see a number of complaints related to battery life of iOS devices when paired with the DFR. This is not what I was expecting at all. Unfortunately not a single shop in town, including the one where I bought my DFR actually allows returns. I also don't want to return my DFR, but if this drain is for real then the device desparately needs some firmware love (which too conincidentally seems to be an issue seeing as AQ still did not release a desktop application for the DF devices).


----------



## JohannLiebert

Just tested the sfb plugged via otg into my samsung s6. With the sine everything alright but playing with my sensitive iem, the dunu2000j, there is notable hiss in quiet environments.. more than playing directly through the s6 jack.... I bought the dfb in my hope to get a black background with my iem.


----------



## vilders

I wonder what's inside DFBlack/RED (but not v1.0, 1.2) can anyone have a photo?


----------



## Pastapipo

Just bought the DFB as a mobile addition to my Dragonfly 1.0. Would love to buy the DFR, but a second hand DFB was all my student budget could take. Hope I won't miss out on too much audio quality.


----------



## fjrabon

dejanh said:


> I think you missed my point. Of course I can disconnect it when I'm not using it. What I want to understand is why the battery drain is so high even when the device is in "standby" (or is that perhaps the problem because it seemingly never goes into standby pointing to a firmware bug?). High standby battery drain means that active battery drain is even worse. Reading through the last 15 pages or so of this thread I can see a number of complaints related to battery life of iOS devices when paired with the DFR. This is not what I was expecting at all. Unfortunately not a single shop in town, including the one where I bought my DFR actually allows returns. I also don't want to return my DFR, but if this drain is for real then the device desparately needs some firmware love (which too conincidentally seems to be an issue seeing as AQ still did not release a desktop application for the DF devices).




What device powered by the phone itself are you comparing it to that doesn't drain battery life? This is just the nature of devices that get their power through the CCK.


----------



## dejanh

fjrabon said:


> What device powered by the phone itself are you comparing it to that doesn't drain battery life? This is just the nature of devices that get their power through the CCK.


I'm not comparing it to any device. It's a question about the DFR, and the experience others have had with it and iOS devices. Perhaps I need to rephrase my question all-together. 

Seeing as the DFR obviously drains the battery excessively on iOS devices, can those that have the DFR with an iOS device tell me if their LED is ever red colour (not magenta) when the DFR is plugged in and no music is playing? I want to know if I have a defective DFR, or whether I should hammer on AQ support to release new firmware.

Having said that, if I really want to draw a comparison, let's use the Cipher DAC as comparison. I have used the Audeze Sine with the Cipher cable and the active drain increases by maybe 1%-2% more per hour at maximum, contrasting with the DFR that drains about 10x more than Cipher per hour when actively listening. It really makes me think the DFR is unnecessarily sucking down battery, and to make matters worse, it even does it while "idling" by seemingly incorrrectly implementing standby that never actually kicks in.


----------



## fjrabon

dejanh said:


> I'm not comparing it to any device. It's a question about the DFR, and the experience others have had with it and iOS devices. Perhaps I need to rephrase my question all-together.
> 
> Seeing as the DFR obviously drains the battery excessively on iOS devices, can those that have the DFR with an iOS device tell me if their LED is ever red colour (not magenta) when the DFR is plugged in and no music is playing? I want to know if I have a defective DFR, or whether I should hammer on AQ support to release new firmware.




The nature of the CCK connection doesn't allow for a standby mode. It's either off, connecting or on. Don't think there's anything that AQ can do about this that wouldn't be a worse solution than just unplugging it.


----------



## pkcpga

dejanh said:


> I'm not comparing it to any device. It's a question about the DFR, and the experience others have had with it and iOS devices. Perhaps I need to rephrase my question all-together.
> 
> Seeing as the DFR obviously drains the battery excessively on iOS devices, can those that have the DFR with an iOS device tell me if their LED is ever red colour (not magenta) when the DFR is plugged in and no music is playing? I want to know if I have a defective DFR, or whether I should hammer on AQ support to release new firmware.
> 
> Having said that, if I really want to draw a comparison, let's use the Cipher DAC as comparison. I have used the Audeze Sine with the Cipher cable and the active drain increases by maybe 1%-2% more per hour at maximum, contrasting with the DFR that drains about 10x more than Cipher per hour when actively listening. It really makes me think the DFR is unnecessarily sucking down battery, and to make matters worse, it even does it while "idling" by seemingly incorrrectly implementing standby that never actually kicks in.



With Apple if you forget to disconnect the dfr it continues to drain battery, the screen becomes slightly less bright when dfr is in use on an iPhone. I guess the color change might be from the brightness dropping a bit. I returned my dfr, too many issues, wether it was the dfr or just the way it interfaces with Apple either way didn't work for me.


----------



## estreeter

I think someone else made a similar observation several pages back re 'excessive' battery drain on their iDevice with one of the new Dragonfly's - it prompted me to check my own battery life and I'm confident that I can get 10+ hours from my Lenovo tablet with volume at max into the DFB+NX2 chain. A 4500 mAh battery roughly twice the size of an iPhone probably doesnt hurt, but its all I can offer at this juncture.


----------



## dejanh

Yeah, it really sounds like the DFR (and for that matter, likely the DFB as well) could benefit from AQ investing some more time into to the firmware implementation. Two posts up somebody mentioned that the nature of iOS CCK connection is that it is always on. I would have to partially disagree with the implication of this comment. 

The "consumption" of power is a function of the device that is being powered off of the phone, meaning that even if the connection is an always-on connection, the hardware on the other end of the CCK connection should be able to enter low-power states that reduce battery drain while still maintaining an active connection. I am certain that there is a problem with the DFR implementation but I'd like to know if even one person actually sees their DFR in the "red" standby state when plugged in to an iOS device, just to rule out a hardware fault.


----------



## JohannLiebert

johannliebert said:


> Just tested the sfb plugged via otg into my samsung s6. With the sine everything alright but playing with my sensitive iem, the dunu2000j, there is notable hiss in quiet environments.. more than playing directly through the s6 jack.... I bought the dfb in my hope to get a black background with my iem.




Does anyone know a fix?


----------



## SpiderNhan

johannliebert said:


> Does anyone know a fix?


 
 Using one of these eliminates the hiss with my DN-2000J and DFR. There's a lot of debate on whether or not impedance adapters do what they're supposed to - increase the impedance of the headphones, not the source and vice versa - but it works for me. I use the 75 ohm one.
  
 http://penonaudio.com/3.5mm-Male-to-3.5mm-Female-Impedance-Adapter
  
 There's also a Dunu made version.
  
 http://penonaudio.com/3.5mm-Inpedance-Plug


----------



## Set845

dejanh said:


> Yeah, it really sounds like the DFR (and for that matter, likely the DFB as well) could benefit from AQ investing some more time into to the firmware implementation. Two posts up somebody mentioned that the nature of iOS CCK connection is that it is always on. I would have to partially disagree with the implication of this comment.
> 
> The "consumption" of power is a function of the device that is being powered off of the phone, meaning that even if the connection is an always-on connection, the hardware on the other end of the CCK connection should be able to enter low-power states that reduce battery drain while still maintaining an active connection. I am certain that there is a problem with the DFR implementation but I'd like to know if even one person actually sees their DFR in the "red" standby state when plugged in to an iOS device, just to rule out a hardware fault.




My DFR never goes into red standby mode when my iPhone 6 goes to sleep.


----------



## fjrabon

dejanh said:


> Yeah, it really sounds like the DFR (and for that matter, likely the DFB as well) could benefit from AQ investing some more time into to the firmware implementation. Two posts up somebody mentioned that the nature of iOS CCK connection is that it is always on. I would have to partially disagree with the implication of this comment.
> 
> The "consumption" of power is a function of the device that is being powered off of the phone, meaning that even if the connection is an always-on connection, the hardware on the other end of the CCK connection should be able to enter low-power states that reduce battery drain while still maintaining an active connection. I am certain that there is a problem with the DFR implementation but I'd like to know if even one person actually sees their DFR in the "red" standby state when plugged in to an iOS device, just to rule out a hardware fault.




All I can tell you is that I have 4 other devices that use the CCK and they all work the way the DFR works. It's a result of the CCK really never being meant for this sort of thing.


----------



## SpiderNhan

I don't have any iDevices, but even my Samsung phone leaving a USB flash drive plugged in via OTG cable drains the battery. It's a symptom the of the tech and not specific to any one device.


----------



## dejanh

Thanks for the feedback everyone. Let me contact AudioQuest.


----------



## JohannLiebert

With usb player pro I can regulaze the volune of the amplifier lower and therefore reduce the hiss significantly with my dn 2000j! Maybe rooting the phone and installing some new kernel gives me more access to the volume control?


----------



## west0ne

Just picked up a DFB from a local HiFi shop so far I'm impressed and I'm liking the sound of this thing. I bought it mainly to go with a cheap Windows tablet I as a semi-portable setup. Using it with Grado SR80, Soundmagigc E10, Fiio EM3, VE Monk I have to set the hardware volume in Windows to 15 to get a volume that doesn't deafen me, this thing is loud.
  
 I've read all the comments about it not working properly with Android native apps but connected to my Galaxy S7E stock audio apps and Spotify played sound through the DFB and at around 75% [software] volume it was plenty loud enough. With UAPP I had to set the hardware volume setting to around 75% and then use the normal volume control for fine adjustment to get a safe volume.
  
 I tried the DFR but the DFB sounded better to me when listening to Jazz, the DFR sounded better with Classical but as I prefer Jazz I went with the DFB. The DFB definitely seems to be good value for money. Not been playing with it for long but it doesn't seem to be having a massive drain on my tablet battery.


----------



## zolom

The DFB sounds better than DFR on my exynos S7E (less harsh sound and warmer) with SE846 IEMs. Volume ususlly set to -75%.
I cannot find a decent equalizer. Everyone I tried so far impact volume or just sounds bad. I mostly listen to Spotify. I cannot root, so V4A, is out of question.

Can anyone suggest a good equlizer to play with Spotify.

Thanks


----------



## estreeter

A month in and I'm enjoying my DFB immensely - about the only negative I can list is the absence of an external analog volume control, and that would look decidedly odd given the form factor. Others see the darker, relatively lush sound signature as a negative, but from my POV its just what the doctor ordered, particularly with modern recordings.
  
 AQ clearly hit it out of the park releasing two affordable DACs instead of one at ~$300 (which seems to be the preferred option for many of the Dragonfly's competitors) - if this thread is any indication quite a few people have bought both so they can compare them side-by-side. I _get_ that many have done this so they can send one back but* it still nets AQ a sale *- especially important in a market as competitive as the budget portable market has become. Would I consider 'upgrading' to the DFR ? Probably not - if I do spend any more money on toys my first priority will definitely be transducers over electronics - but that doesnt mean that other DFB owners wont get the urge at some stage. Upgraditis is one tough addiction to kick, and AQ clearly know that. As I said, clever marketing - kudos to Gordon and the rest of the team behind the DFB/DFR.


----------



## jlw

What iOS player should I use for automatic hz switching in the Dragonfly?
 tried vlc, no luck.


----------



## Pastapipo

estreeter said:


> A month in and I'm enjoying my DFB immensely - about the only negative I can list is the absence of an external analog volume control, and that would look decidedly odd given the form factor. Others see the darker, relatively lush sound signature as a negative, but from my POV its just what the doctor ordered, particularly with modern recordings.
> 
> AQ clearly hit it out of the park releasing two affordable DACs instead of one at ~$300 (which seems to be the preferred option for many of the Dragonfly's competitors) - if this thread is any indication quite a few people have bought both so they can compare them side-by-side. I _get_ that many have done this so they can send one back but* it still nets AQ a sale *- especially important in a market as competitive as the budget portable market has become. Would I consider 'upgrading' to the DFR ? Probably not - if I do spend any more money on toys my first priority will definitely be transducers over electronics - but that doesnt mean that other DFB owners wont get the urge at some stage. Upgraditis is one tough addiction to kick, and AQ clearly know that. As I said, clever marketing - kudos to Gordon and the rest of the team behind the DFB/DFR.


 
  
 I am in love with the DFB as well. The only logical upgrade from the DFB/DFR would be the Chord Mojo for me. I've heard that piece of magic and it is fantastic, but multiple the price of the DF products.
 The fact we don't have a second volume slider is a plus imho, that way they keep things simple and clean.


----------



## Set845

jlw said:


> What iOS player should I use for automatic hz switching in the Dragonfly?
> tried vlc, no luck.




HF Player by Onkyo. You may want to make the $10 in app purchase to unlock the higher sample rate files and flac. As HF Player can access your iTunes files, I compared the stock music app to HF Player comparing Apple Lossles files. I can easily hear that HF Player sounds better. Bigger sound stage, more instrument separation, cleaner than the stock music app. I don't know what Onkyo is doing but it reminds me of Audirvana player on a Mac compared to iTunes.


----------



## Hubert481

Could not find, how ro setup onkyo for playing spotify - is there any specific trick?


----------



## Set845

hubert481 said:


> Could not find, how ro setup onkyo for playing spotify - is there any specific trick?




I wasn't aware that HF Player plays Spotify. I don't think it does, I could be wrong though. It can access iTunes and its own files that you load into its file browser.


----------



## pkcpga

pastapipo said:


> I am in love with the DFB as well. The only logical upgrade from the DFB/DFR would be the Chord Mojo for me. I've heard that piece of magic and it is fantastic, but multiple the price of the DF products.
> The fact we don't have a second volume slider is a plus imho, that way they keep things simple and clean.



The chord mojo is definitely worth the upgrade from the df's, opens the sound stage up and separates music very well for a portable DAC/amp. Also has a sound that falls between the two df's or closer to neutral, the dfb being overly warm, dfr being bright.


----------



## jlw

With Onkyo you cant stream music via smb or ftp like in vlc?


----------



## west0ne

Not sure if it has been mentioned anywhere but if you are on Android and your phone is rooted you can install Alsa Mixer to adjust the DFB internal hardware volume. I couldn't find the right setting in the GUI version of Alsa Mixer but I was able to set it using a terminal emulator and command line. On my Samsung Galaxy S5 the internal hardware volume seems to default to 44. The only problem with this method is that the volume defaulted back to 44 on reboot and on unplugging/re-plugging the DFB so the commands had to be re-entered.
  
 After installing Alsa Mixer open up a terminal emulator window and get root by typing 'su'.
  
 Find your DFB by entering the command 'alsa_aplay -l' this will give you a list of the audio devices on the phone, my DFB was identified as Card 1.
  
 Check the current levels by entering the command 'alsa_amixer -c1 contents' the one you're interested in is PCM volume which on mine had the numid=2 and a value=44.
  
 Change the hardware volume by entering the command 'alsa_amixer -c1 cset numid=2 64' this will set the internal hardware to the maximum of 64 you can set any value between 0 and 64. The "-c1" relates to Card 1 which you found when you used the 'alsa_aplay -l' command if yours is a different card then use that number instead.
  
 The hardware volume controls still work but the range from high to low is different and reflects the value you entered as the hardware volume.
  
 Alsa Mixer will only work on rooted phones, I've only tested this on a rooted Galaxy S5 so I can't guarantee it will work on your device. The new volume levels work across all native apps including spotify, google music, YouTube etc. I only have a DFB so don't know if this will work with the DFR.
  
 ***EDIT***
  
 Just tried this on my rooted Moto G (3rd Gen 2015) and have the exact same results, the DFB internal hardware volume defaults to 44 on this as well. Sitting here with K702 plugged in listening to spotify, can't turn the volume up to max as it's now too loud.


----------



## WayneWoondirts

fyi: DragonFly Black and Red have been reviewed on headfonia
  
  
 http://www.headfonia.com/review-audioquest-dragonfly-red-black/


----------



## pkcpga

waynewoondirts said:


> fyi: DragonFly Black and Red have been reviewed on headfonia
> 
> 
> http://www.headfonia.com/review-audioquest-dragonfly-red-black/



Not a great review, I wonder if the dfr was even listened to, since this is the only reviewer that found the dfr to be warmer and more laid back sounding. The dfr is definitely known to be the brighter sounding with a more details and quickier timing, definitely not warmer, laid back with harder hitting deeper bass.


----------



## Ultrainferno

pkcpga said:


> Not a great review, I wonder if the dfr was even listened to, since this is the only reviewer that found the dfr to be warmer and more laid back sounding. The dfr is definitely known to be the brighter sounding with a more details and quickier timing, definitely not warmer, laid back with harder hitting deeper bass.


 
  
 These units were handed to me personally during High End in Munich. It is the way they sound, that is all I can say. I'm listening to both units at this very moment and I couldn't possibly say the Red is brighter and quicker. It does have more detail though, I don't think I said Red had less detail, it is richer sounding. Red's bass isn't harder hitting, it is bigger in body but with better detail and layering. Black's bass seems tighter, punchier and faster.
 It's perfectly fine you don't find it a good review, different people have different tastes. I haven't read any other reviews of these units myself and I'm sure AQ will react if they don't agree (but hey have read it already). Did you yourself hear both DF's side by side?


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## pkcpga

ultrainferno said:


> These units were handed to me personally during High End in Munich. It is the way they sound, that is all I can say. I'm listening to both units at this very moment and I couldn't possibly say the Red is brighter and quicker. It does have more detail though, I don't think I said Red had less detail, it is richer sounding. Red's bass isn't harder hitting, it is bigger in body but with better detail and layering. Black's bass seems tighter, punchier and faster.
> It's perfectly fine you don't find it a good review, different people have different tastes. I haven't read any other reviews of these units myself and I'm sure AQ will react if they don't agree (but hey have read it already). Did you yourself hear both DF's side by side?



I owned both, found the dfb to be much warmer sounding, almost too warm sounding and lacking detail and separation. The dfr was very bright, too extended of highs for my personal taste with IEM's I use, but the dfr had better separation and detail. With Iem use the dfr lacked bass which is what a large group of people on head-fi have found, it's more layered but much softer bass with harsher highs. I went back to using the chord mojo, the df's were not for me. They're small but power hungry on your apple phone and I found them to only sound ok compared to the mojo.


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## Ultrainferno

pkcpga said:


> I owned both, found the dfb to be much warmer sounding, almost too warm sounding and lacking detail and separation. The dfr was very bright, too extended of highs for my personal taste with IEM's I use, but the dfr had better separation and detail. With Iem use the dfr lacked bass which is what a large group of people on head-fi have found, it's more layered but much softer bass with harsher highs. I went back to using the chord mojo, the df's were not for me. They're small but power hungry on your apple phone and I found them to only sound ok compared to the mojo.


 
  
 ok, thanks for your feedback. I myself am not the biggest Mojo fan, our tastes clearly differ


----------



## pkcpga

ultrainferno said:


> ok, thanks for your feedback. I myself am not the biggest Mojo fan, our tastes clearly differ



Yeah, guess so, I even have the chord Dave for my home system, it's very revealing, love that.


----------



## Ultrainferno

pkcpga said:


> Yeah, guess so, I even have the chord Dave for my home system, it's very revealing, love that.


 
  
 I like it too, and Hugo. Nice setup!


----------



## brent75

pkcpga said:


> Not a great review, I wonder if the dfr was even listened to, since this is the only reviewer that found the dfr to be warmer and more laid back sounding. The dfr is definitely known to be the brighter sounding with a more details and quickier timing, definitely not warmer, laid back with harder hitting deeper bass.


 
  
 My friend - what is with you?!?! For starters, you keep dropping into a discussion dedicated to the new Dragonflies just to tell everyone you're not impressed with them and that Mojo is much better. I think one instance/comparison is fine...but you keep doing it over and over. There's already a thread dedicated to Mojo.
  
 Second, this is a message board. That was a review. Both are SUBJECTIVE. It's rude (and not even accurate, as again this is subjective) to dismiss a contribution as "not great" and question whether someone actually even listened to them just because an opinion differed than yours.
  
 Not trying to start a fight...just asking for a little tact.


----------



## pkcpga

ultrainferno said:


> I like it too, and Hugo. Nice setup!



Thanks there with naim preamp, individually naim amped b and w nautilus speakers. Surprised you like the Dave, Hugo if you don't like the mojo, very similar signature. If anything the mojo is a little friendlier on recordings, also very different than the cheaper DACs on df's.


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## brent75

waynewoondirts said:


> fyi: DragonFly Black and Red have been reviewed on headfonia
> 
> 
> http://www.headfonia.com/review-audioquest-dragonfly-red-black/


 
 Great review - thanks for linking.
  
 I like how all the factors are taken into account (price, portability, etc). I've found too many people dismiss DF vs Mojo STRICTLY on sound...but the reality is, we don't make purchase decisions based on one and only one factor. The fact that it's a third of the price...much more pocket-friendly...firmware upgradeable...AND great sounding (even if you don't think it's in the same solar system as Mojo) are all fantastic factors that should be considered.
  
 Also, I don't understand the knock on battery/charging, because as I've said before -- you always have to charge something. If you go DF + Phone you have to charge your phone at some point...but the nice thing is you NEVER have to charge your DF. It's always 100% ready to plug and play. If you go Mojo + Phone, you have to charge your phone at some point AND you have to charge your Mojo at some point. It's only plug and play if you remembered to keep it juiced. There were times it ran low...I came back ready to listen to music...and it died after 10 minutes because I had forgotten to charge. Again, another factor that should be considered IMO.


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## Pastapipo

ultrainferno said:


> These units were handed to me personally during High End in Munich. It is the way they sound, that is all I can say. I'm listening to both units at this very moment and I couldn't possibly say the Red is brighter and quicker. It does have more detail though, I don't think I said Red had less detail, it is richer sounding. Red's bass isn't harder hitting, it is bigger in body but with better detail and layering. Black's bass seems tighter, punchier and faster.
> It's perfectly fine you don't find it a good review, different people have different tastes. I haven't read any other reviews of these units myself and I'm sure AQ will react if they don't agree (but hey have read it already). Did you yourself hear both DF's side by side?


 
  
 Great review! Thanks!


----------



## JohannLiebert

west0ne said:


> Not sure if it has been mentioned anywhere but if you are on Android and your phone is rooted you can install Alsa Mixer to adjust the DFB internal hardware volume. I couldn't find the right setting in the GUI version of Alsa Mixer but I was able to set it using a terminal emulator and command line. On my Samsung Galaxy S5 the internal hardware volume seems to default to 44. The only problem with this method is that the volume defaulted back to 44 on reboot and on unplugging/re-plugging the DFB so the commands had to be re-entered.
> 
> After installing Alsa Mixer open up a terminal emulator window and get root by typing 'su'.
> 
> ...




IVE BEEN WAITING FOR A POST LIKE THIS. IM SO EXCITED CANT WAIT TO TRY. Capslock end. UAPP is a pain in the ass


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## JohannLiebert

This is what I got, volume is still the same like before.


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## west0ne

In your case it is numid=3 that is the 'PCM Playback Volume' so you would need 'alsa_amixer -c1 cset numid=3 64' , numid=2 is 1 or 0 in your case.
  
 On my S5 it is numid=2 but on the Moto G it is numid=3.
  
 On my Moto G3 if the DFB is connected on powering on then it becomes card 0 so '-c0'.
  
 It looks like the switch varied from phone to phone.
  
 If in doubt use 'alsa_amixer -c1 cset name='PCM Playback Volume' 64' and see if that works.


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## JohannLiebert

Ok got it! On mine it was numid=3, not 2 
Thanks so much.. finally can watch movies with decent volume
Edit: figured it out myself, but thank you so much .


----------



## myemaildw

zuperdac vs dragonfly red dacs review
[VIDEO]https://youtu.be/Y6jhO3DifCE[/VIDEO]
https://youtu.be/Y6jhO3DifCE


----------



## TheEldestBoy

To those of you who are finding the DFR to be "bright" and/or "thin":
  
 Is this just the case with IEM's?
 Or have any of you found the DFR to be "bright" and/or "thin" with the Seinnheiser HD600/650?


----------



## Set845

myemaildw said:


> zuperdac vs dragonfly red dacs review
> [VIDEO]https://youtu.be/Y6jhO3DifCE[/VIDEO]
> https://youtu.be/Y6jhO3DifCE




My DFR was a bit ear fatiguing at first. But after two weeks of heavy use that has gone away. Seems smoother and airier in the highs. Could you explain what you thought was weird about the sound? If not, maybe you could tell us what part of it was weird, i.e. bass mids or highs.


----------



## myemaildw

em probably not, just overall sound didn't have as much bass as I want cause it's 1 ohm amp, zuperdac is 4 ohms means more bass, usually, but if you don't get ear fatigue from DFR then it's for you, I get ear fatigue from it and better sound quality wasn't worth it for me compared to zuperdac being 2.5 times cheaper and DFR 2.5 times more expensive than zuperdac. it's 120 euro more to pay and zuperdac is 80 euro and refurbished zuperdac dac are 45 euro sold by zorloo on zorloo website. and I'm not a fan of bright leds on dacs distract from music, and listening to mp3 flax 1000 Kbps is all same green led including mp3s makes no difference to me it doesn't indicate anything only distracts from music especially in evenings, night. zuperdac led is as I like not illuminating room and is there if I look at it to see if it's on.

it's sold so and I won't use it long enough for it not being ear fatiguing cause I had enough of ear fatigue as is, but use it if you like it, everyone like their own stuff, it's my use.

but DFR is a lot better in detail but overall I don't like it being too ear fatiguing is main among other


----------



## shotgunshane

4 ohms output impedance doesn't mean more bass. It depends on the impedance curve of the iem or headphone in question, plus sensitivity. 4 ohms could take away bass, add bass or do nothing depending on these factors.


----------



## Set845

myemaildw said:


> em probably not, just overall sound didn't have as much bass as I want cause it's 1 ohm amp, zuperdac is 4 ohms means more bass, usually, but if you don't get ear fatigue from DFR then it's for you, I get ear fatigue from it and better sound quality wasn't worth it for me compared to zuperdac being 2.5 times cheaper and DFR 2.5 times more expensive than zuperdac. it's 120 euro more to pay and zuperdac is 80 euro and refurbished zuperdac dac are 45 euro sold by zorloo on zorloo website. and I'm not a fan of bright leds on dacs distract from music, and listening to mp3 flax 1000 Kbps is all same green led including mp3s makes no difference to me it doesn't indicate anything only distracts from music especially in evenings, night. zuperdac led is as I like not illuminating room and is there if I look at it to see if it's on.
> 
> it's sold so and I won't use it long enough for it not being ear fatiguing cause I had enough of ear fatigue as is, but use it if you like it, everyone like their own stuff, it's my use.
> 
> but DFR is a lot better in detail but overall I don't like it being too ear fatiguing is main among other




Fair enough. Thanks. By the way, your MP3 files will always display green, no matter the bit rate, because MP3 is always 44,100 Hz.


----------



## fjrabon

listening to the DFR with the HD800 right now, and while it's bright, it's not offensively bright.  Honestly it's less bright than the Magni or Vali for me, with most headphones.  To me the DFR is pretty neutral.  It's got a touch of high order harmonic distortion, that I think people are confusing with treble.  But it's pretty slight and only noticeable when I compare it to vastly superior gear.  To me the DFB isn't more bassy, it's just congested and lacks dynamics, which, I think people are confusing for being bassy.  Just my opinion tho.
  
 To me:
  
 DFR: Bigger soundstage, more dynamic, better bass and treble extension, lower distortion but a bit too much of it is in the higher orders, more transparent, completely neutral in a frequency response sense
 DFB: more congested, less dynamics, more distortion but more centered around lower ordered harmonics, less transparent, completely neutral in a frequency response sense
  
 I think the lack of dynamics and the low order harmonic distortion can make for a smoother listen for the DFB.  But I think the idea that the DFR is brighter and the DFB has more bass quantity is not right.


----------



## pkcpga

fjrabon said:


> listening to the DFR with the HD800 right now, and while it's bright, it's not offensively bright.  Honestly it's less bright than the Magni or Vali for me, with most headphones.  To me the DFR is pretty neutral.  It's got a touch of high order harmonic distortion, that I think people are confusing with treble.  But it's pretty slight and only noticeable when I compare it to vastly superior gear.  To me the DFB isn't more bassy, it's just congested and lacks dynamics, which, I think people are confusing for being bassy.  Just my opinion tho.
> 
> To me:
> 
> ...



Only thing with the hd800 and the dfr is the sound becomes very thin and extended highs making it offensive or harsh for some people, including myself. The hd800 is very revealing headphone with great range with other DAC/amps while sound is also a bit lacking in bass also with the dfr. I definitely did not consider this a good match with the hd800 compared to the chord mojo or chord dave. Especially since there is a very big difference in sound with this particular headphone and it's not a portable headphone.


----------



## fjrabon

pkcpga said:


> Only thing with the hd800 and the dfr is the sound becomes very thin and extended highs making it offensive or harsh for some people, including myself. The hd800 is very revealing headphone with great range with other DAC/amps while sound is also a bit lacking in bass also with the dfr. I definitely did not consider this a good match with the hd800 compared to the chord mojo or chord dave. Especially since there is a very big difference in sound with this particular headphone and it's not a portable headphone.



Sure, but I don't understand why we are comparing it to the Chord mojo and Dave. I mean it's not as good as my iDAC6 Torpedo III setup either.


----------



## pkcpga

fjrabon said:


> Sure, but I don't understand why we are comparing it to the Chord mojo and Dave. I mean it's not as good as my iDAC6 Torpedo III setup either.



You choose to compare it with a home headphone, not exactly an on the go headphone. Plus if you can afford a better DAC/amp why choose one not as good. Even with home audio you match a hifi speaker with poor DAC preamp or amp and the sound is poor and the hifi speaker reveals how poor the source is but if you match a decent low end speaker with great DAC preamp and amp it will sound better. So for people to spend 1,000 on headphone and 100 on dac amp doesn't give the headphone a chance and everyone keeps upgrading headphones. Get a better source, spend at least half the headphone on your source if you want to give your headphone a chance.


----------



## fjrabon

pkcpga said:


> You choose to compare it with a home headphone, not exactly an on the go headphone. Plus if you can afford a better DAC/amp why choose one not as good. Even with home audio you match a hifi speaker with poor DAC preamp or amp and the sound is poor and the hifi speaker reveals how poor the source is but if you match a decent low end speaker with great DAC preamp and amp it will sound better. So for people to spend 1,000 on headphone and 100 on dac amp doesn't give the headphone a chance and everyone keeps upgrading headphones. Get a better source, spend at least half the headphone on your source if you want to give your headphone a chance.


 

 I can walk around the house with the DFR and it sounds quite good.  As much as I love the iDAC6 - Torpedo III combo, I can't do laundry with it.  
  
 My point in bringing up the HD800 - DFR combo wasn't to say it's an ideal pairing, so much as to say that in my opinion I think the brightness of the DFR is overblown.  If any headphone was going to show brightness, it would be the HD800.
  
 I've also always thought "spend X% of your headphone cost" guidelines were silly.  The HD800 used to cost $1600.  Now it cost around $1000.  Does that mean that you can now get away with a cheaper amp?  Do I need a better amp with an LCD4 than I need with an HD800S?  On the other side, the HD650 is about $350 right now, which according to your 50% guideline would mean $175 on source + amp.  I don't know any way to bring out the best in the HD650 for less than $600 (amp + DAC).
  
 Plus, the headphone is 90% of the equation easily.  Assuming the amp has enough power to make the headphone loud enough, the better headphone is going to beat the better system every time.
  
 Buy a headphone you like, buy an amp you like with that headphone, buy a DAC you like with that headphone and amp, in that order; don't worry about what percentage of your budget goes into each; do your research and make smart purchases that fit your budget.  My m9XX with my HD800 runs laps around my HE400i with a Yggy/Ragnorak.  Does the HD800 sound better out of the iDAC6 Torpedo II setup?  sure.  But the setup was the last bit of perfection.  The HD800 did the vast bulk of the carrying, and sounds quite good out of even the humble DFR.


----------



## canali

brent75 said:


> Great review - thanks for linking.
> 
> I like how all the factors are taken into account (price, portability, etc). I've found too many people dismiss DF vs Mojo STRICTLY on sound...but the reality is, we don't make purchase decisions based on one and only one factor. The fact that it's a third of the price...much more pocket-friendly...firmware upgradeable...AND great sounding (even if you don't think it's in the same solar system as Mojo) are all fantastic factors that should be considered.
> 
> Also, I don't understand the knock on battery/charging, because as I've said before -- you always have to charge something. If you go DF + Phone you have to charge your phone at some point...but the nice thing is you NEVER have to charge your DF. It's always 100% ready to plug and play. If you go Mojo + Phone, you have to charge your phone at some point AND you have to charge your Mojo at some point. It's only plug and play if you remembered to keep it juiced. There were times it ran low...I came back ready to listen to music...and it died after 10 minutes because I had forgotten to charge. Again, another factor that should be considered IMO.


 
  
 guilty as charged on using the DF red alot.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 fully agree with your assessment: it's not only about sound, it's often equally important (esp for portable audio) about being _user friendly for on the go._  
 despite having my iFi micro iDSD and mad tube amp, and a chord mojo
 it's the dragonfly red that i use 90% of the time when i just sit down to plug and play quickly. 
 yes, it's laziness but it is also 'cause the df red is just so darned easy to use
 ...even when sitting down the other day on a park bench, trying out the mojo and my ipod it was a bit
 of a hassle that cumbersome brick and the two chords....the mojo's new module will be coming out either this or next week (according to to rob watts on the chord thread, so that should help mitigate that issue a bit.
  
 I do want to start listening to the mojo and iFi and mad amp for a better comparison.


----------



## estreeter

ultrainferno said:


> These units were handed to me personally during High End in Munich. It is the way they sound, that is all I can say. I'm listening to both units at this very moment and I couldn't possibly say the Red is brighter and quicker. It does have more detail though, I don't think I said Red had less detail, it is richer sounding. Red's bass isn't harder hitting, it is bigger in body but with better detail and layering. Black's bass seems tighter, punchier and faster.
> It's perfectly fine you don't find it a good review, different people have different tastes. I haven't read any other reviews of these units myself and I'm sure AQ will react if they don't agree (but hey have read it already). Did you yourself hear both DF's side by side?


 
  
 I appreciate the courage you've shown in being willing to address a critique publicly, but I've always found your reviews tough going. I have no problem with critical reviews - especially with FOTM gear that no-one else seems willing to criticise -* I just find it odd that you seem willing to rip into gear that doesnt conform to your own sonic preferences*. If there's one thing that sets the pro reviewers apart from the average joe, surely its the ability to set their own preferences aside when discussing the merits of a component ? I dont need to read the DF review to have a pretty good idea how it will go, but this goes well beyond the product we're discussing here. On the plus side, you frequently review gear well in advance of anyone else, and often yours is one of the only reviews of a budget component outside Head-Fi : kudos for your efforts in covering gear that is clearly beneath the 'big' reviewers.
  
 John Darko made the point a while back that there will always be people who dont relate to his writing style, and that's their problem not his. I agree 100% and this is clearly my problem - I wish you every success in the future.
  
 Edit: I typed the above before reading the review as it was a general criticism of the Headfonia reviews I've read - my apologies to Lieven when the majority of said reviews were written by Mike. I'm going to leave this post in place as the DF review doesnt change my feelings about the overall bias displayed in Headfonia's reviews - its simply a lot less obvious in Lieven's reviews than it is in Mike's.


----------



## SpiderNhan

On the subject of differing opinions as to how the DFB and DFR sound in relation to one another, has anyone done in-depth comparisons using different operating systems?

Someone mentioned that the sound of their DFR changed when their iPhone's battery fell below a certain percentage. People have even reported differences between USB Audio Player Pro and Onkyo HF Player. What about the sonic changes that might occur between iOS, OSX, Windows, Android and Linux? Could this be leading to the discrepancies everyone is hearing?


----------



## estreeter

spidernhan said:


> On the subject of differing opinions as to how the DFB and DFR sound in relation to one another, has anyone done in-depth comparisons using different operating systems?
> 
> Someone mentioned that the sound of their DFR changed when their iPhone's battery fell below a certain percentage. People have even reported differences between USB Audio Player Pro and Onkyo HF Player. What about the sonic changes that might occur between iOS, OSX, Windows, Android and Linux? Could this be leading to the discrepancies everyone is hearing?


 
  
 On balance, I prefer what I hear from Android and Windows than the results I've had with Linux, but as I've stated earlier the only playback software that consistently wows me is JRMC and Roon, both of which use a client/server model even when both are deployed on the same device. I only have the trial versions of UaPP, HF Player and Neutron so I may not be the best judge, but none of them even begin to approach Roon's sound quality with the DFB. If I can just work out why its only importing a fraction of my library, I'm going to fork out for a 12-month sub when my current 60-days expires.


----------



## Pastapipo

spidernhan said:


> On the subject of differing opinions as to how the DFB and DFR sound in relation to one another, has anyone done in-depth comparisons using different operating systems?
> 
> Someone mentioned that the sound of their DFR changed when their iPhone's battery fell below a certain percentage. People have even reported differences between USB Audio Player Pro and Onkyo HF Player. What about the sonic changes that might occur between iOS, OSX, Windows, Android and Linux? Could this be leading to the discrepancies everyone is hearing?


 
  
 No difference here between PC and Android + Poweramp alpha.


----------



## pkcpga

spidernhan said:


> On the subject of differing opinions as to how the DFB and DFR sound in relation to one another, has anyone done in-depth comparisons using different operating systems?
> 
> Someone mentioned that the sound of their DFR changed when their iPhone's battery fell below a certain percentage. People have even reported differences between USB Audio Player Pro and Onkyo HF Player. What about the sonic changes that might occur between iOS, OSX, Windows, Android and Linux? Could this be leading to the discrepancies everyone is hearing?



Never thought about that or even music quality. I'm using Apple products, onkyo hf, bluesound, title hifi or naim. Most of my music is above cd quality at DSD or dxd. Or sacd, dvda played through a universal player. Thinking back the dfr sounded best played through title which is my lowest or cd quality or lossless level of music, maybe the df just struggle with down sampling DSD256 or dxd353. The dfr sounded thin, bright and lacking bass with the higher res music. This might be why the df's didn't work for me.


----------



## Torq

pkcpga said:


> Never thought about that or even music quality. I'm using Apple products, onkyo hf, bluesound, title hifi or naim. Most of my music is above cd quality at DSD or dxd. Or sacd, dvda played through a universal player. Thinking back the dfr sounded best played through title which is my lowest or cd quality or lossless level of music, maybe the df just struggle with down sampling DSD256 or dxd353. The dfr sounded thin, bright and lacking bass with the higher res music. This might be why the df's didn't work for me.


 

 DragonFly doesn't support DSD or DXD, or any PCM rate over 24 bit/96 KHz, so your *player* is doing the necessary conversion form your source file to PCM (ideally 24/96, but the light on the DragonFly will tell you what its actually receiving).
  
 That down-sampling is likely the source of the lower quality from your high-resolution sources.  With TIDAL, it'll just send the native 16/44.1 signal with no additional conversion necessary.


----------



## fjrabon

torq said:


> DragonFly doesn't support DSD or DXD, or any PCM rate over 24 bit/96 KHz, so your *player* is doing the necessary conversion form your source file to PCM (ideally 24/96, but the light on the DragonFly will tell you what its actually receiving).
> 
> That down-sampling is likely the source of the lower quality from your high-resolution sources.  With TIDAL, it'll just send the native 16/44.1 signal with no additional conversion necessary.


 

 yeah, this may well be the core issue with most of the issues he has had.  Most players simply won't play those higher res files with the DFR (or DFB for that matter) so the downsampling is absolutely being done by the player, which I can't imagine is at all a good downsampling.


----------



## west0ne

spidernhan said:


> On the subject of differing opinions as to how the DFB and DFR sound in relation to one another, has anyone done in-depth comparisons using different operating systems?
> 
> Someone mentioned that the sound of their DFR changed when their iPhone's battery fell below a certain percentage. People have even reported differences between USB Audio Player Pro and Onkyo HF Player. What about the sonic changes that might occur between iOS, OSX, Windows, Android and Linux? Could this be leading to the discrepancies everyone is hearing?


 
 I'm no expert but you would think that if the transport device was passing an unadulterated data stream the DFB/DFR should be doing all of the work and should therefore sound the same across all transports but I'm not sure that all transports do pass the clean stream to an external DAC/AMP so if some processing is done before it gets passed onto the DAC/AMP it could account for variations in the sound.
  
 For example the way I understand it is that UAPP on Android completely bypasses the Android Kernel sound processing and passes all data straight through to the DAC/AMP whereas native apps send data through the Kernel and then onto the DAC/AMP which could be accounting for the variations being heard. Different apps may also be doing something with the data before sending it out.


----------



## Set845

Earlier I mentioned that I could clearly hear a difference between HF Player and the stock music app on iOS comparing Apple Lossless files. HF Player sounds much better, bigger soundstage, better separation, cleaner. So there's that.


----------



## Ultrainferno

estreeter said:


> I appreciate the courage you've shown in being willing to address a critique publicly, but I've always found your reviews tough going. I have no problem with critical reviews - especially with FOTM gear that no-one else seems willing to criticise -* I just find it odd that you seem willing to rip into gear that doesnt conform to your own sonic preferences*. If there's one thing that sets the pro reviewers apart from the average joe, surely its the ability to set their own preferences aside when discussing the merits of a component ? I dont need to read the DF review to have a pretty good idea how it will go, but this goes well beyond the product we're discussing here. On the plus side, you frequently review gear well in advance of anyone else, and often yours is one of the only reviews of a budget component outside Head-Fi : kudos for your efforts in covering gear that is clearly beneath the 'big' reviewers.
> 
> John Darko made the point a while back that there will always be people who dont relate to his writing style, and that's their problem not his. I agree 100% and this is clearly my problem - I wish you every success in the future.
> 
> Edit: I typed the above before reading the review as it was a general criticism of the Headfonia reviews I've read - my apologies to Lieven when the majority of said reviews were written by Mike. I'm going to leave this post in place as the DF review doesnt change my feelings about the overall bias displayed in Headfonia's reviews - its simply a lot less obvious in Lieven's reviews than it is in Mike's.


 
  
 It is a burden that is hard to shake off, but I have to live with it. I can only hope people actually read something I wrote instead of just playing the bias card without even knowing the whole writing staff changed.
 It has advantages and disadvantages, but that's life. We just all try to do our best. Thanks for the constructive post.


----------



## DJ The Rocket

jmsaxon69 said:


> Guys I'm not sure how I can be more clear about the black vs red issue. The red is better in every way. I can't make it any more plain and simple. I'd pay $400 for the red even if the black was still $99




I have a few suggestions on how you could be more clear: you could explain in a little more detail precisely WHY you feel this way. Is the sound quality different? In what way? What kinds of sources are you listening to, on what headphones? 

You say the Red is better. How much better, in what areas? Is it, to your ears, a night and day difference, or a matter of incremental improvement in specific parts of the sound that are important to you? If you're focusing on the Red's superior soundstage (for example, if it is indeed superior to you), I would care greatly about that, while others here might not be interested in paying for that at all.

Or are you basing your opinion on Red being a prettier color, and the Black makes you feel sad to look at? You see, we don't know. Really you're not being very clear AT ALL, but the good news is that you have lots of room for improvement!


----------



## 0rangutan

Losing a little confidence in my DFB.

I think this was mentioned previously but using almost any of the EQ settings in Spotify (particularly Acoustic) causes easily audible clicking and distortion. Going direct from my iPhone 6 stops this. Disabling the Spotify EQ also stops this.

Can any DFR and/or Mojo owners confirm whether they experience this or not with their devices and the Spotify equaliser?

Thanks.


----------



## pkcpga

0rangutan said:


> Losing a little confidence in my DFB.
> 
> I think this was mentioned previously but using almost any of the EQ settings in Spotify (particularly Acoustic) causes easily audible clicking and distortion. Going direct from my iPhone 6 stops this. Disabling the Spotify EQ also stops this.
> 
> ...




Spotify equalizer is not very good and distorts sound. Although I found the dfr did not play well even with the onkyo hf equalizer which the mojo has no issues with, but the mojo does get weird bass distortion with Spotify if you try to use the equalizer.


----------



## MarkF786

I just got my DFB, mainly for use with my MacBook Pro and SE846's - and the DFB signal is too darn hot for these sensitive IEMs!  When using the Mac's volume control, on some songs the first step of the volume is too loud.  On some other songs, the tolerable range is only three steps - 1) too quite, 2) somewhere in the middle and 3) too loud.
  
 I can go into the "Audio MIDI Setup" control and manually adjust the output one dB at a time, but it's not very convenient.  And I'd prefer not to use the in-app volume controls, since that can deteriorate the sound quality in my experience.
  
 Has anyone found a good solution to this issue, to either scale back the volume on the DFB or more easily adjust it granularly?


----------



## pkcpga

markf786 said:


> I just got my DFB, mainly for use with my MacBook Pro and SE846's - and the DFB signal is too darn hot for these sensitive IEMs!  When using the Mac's volume control, on some songs the first step of the volume is too loud.  On some other songs, the tolerable range is only three steps - 1) too quite, 2) somewhere in the middle and 3) too loud.
> 
> I can go into the "Audio MIDI Setup" control and manually adjust the output one dB at a time, but it's not very convenient.  And I'd prefer not to use the in-app volume controls, since that can deteriorate the sound quality in my experience.
> 
> Has anyone found a good solution to this issue, to either scale back the volume on the DFB or more easily adjust it granularly?



Return and get a DAC/amp with gain or volume control. Didn't work well for Noble savant's as well.


----------



## MarkF786

pkcpga said:


> Return and get a DAC/amp with gain or volume control. Didn't work well for Noble savant's as well.




That's not my preferred solution. It would be good if AQ offered a software update to scale the volume range for users with sensitive IEMs.


----------



## mks100

markf786 said:


> That's not my preferred solution. It would be good if AQ offered a software update to scale the volume range for users with sensitive IEMs.


 
 This is why I returned the Black and purchased the Red.


----------



## MarkF786

mks100 said:


> This is why I returned the Black and purchased the Red.




The Red is even hotter. Is the volume adjustment more granular at low levels?


----------



## pkcpga

markf786 said:


> The Red is even hotter. Is the volume adjustment more granular at low levels?



The red starts at the same volume but has better steps between not as big of jumps.


----------



## mks100

markf786 said:


> The Red is even hotter. Is the volume adjustment more granular at low levels?



Yes.  The Black has an Analog Volume Control.  The Red is Digital.  I could only use the Black at 6/100 before it was too loud with my Grados.  I can go to 17/100 with the Red.


----------



## fjrabon

mks100 said:


> The Black is an Analog Headphone Amp.  The Red is Digital.




That isn't true.


----------



## mks100

Apologies. Meant Volume Control. Corrected my reply.


----------



## brent75

fjrabon said:


> That isn't true.


 

I think he meant regarding volume:
  
 ---
_For greater overall performance, the new DragonFly models also incorporate improved 32-bit ESS Sabre DAC chips—the 9010 in Black and the higher-performance 9016 in Red—both of which employ minimum-phase filtering for naturally detailed, more authentic sound. While DragonFly Black uses the same high-quality headphone amp and analog volume control found in DragonFly v1.2, DragonFly Red includes the latest ESS headphone amp and a bit-perfect digital volume control that resides on the 9016 DAC chip itself—a sophisticated implementation that ensures maximum fidelity, dynamic contrast, and signal-to-noise ratio._
 ---


----------



## pkcpga

The black is digitally controlled by the host device making it what they call anolog. The red has a digital limiter on it for each step making equal rises in volume. Neither controls the starting volume that would be based on power supplied by the host device. In normal terms.


----------



## maltronics

markf786 said:


> I just got my DFB, mainly for use with my MacBook Pro and SE846's - and the DFB signal is too darn hot for these sensitive IEMs!  When using the Mac's volume control, on some songs the first step of the volume is too loud.  On some other songs, the tolerable range is only three steps - 1) too quite, 2) somewhere in the middle and 3) too loud.
> 
> I can go into the "Audio MIDI Setup" control and manually adjust the output one dB at a time, but it's not very convenient.  And I'd prefer not to use the in-app volume controls, since that can deteriorate the sound quality in my experience.
> 
> Has anyone found a good solution to this issue, to either scale back the volume on the DFB or more easily adjust it granularly?


 
 MarkF786,
  
 When you adjust the volume on your Macbook Pro, are you holding down the "Shift" and the "Option" (alt) keys while adjusting the volume? 
 If you are, my apologies, and if you are not, doing so should adjust the volume "granularly!
  
 Cheers!
 Mal.


----------



## west0ne

On my Linux system and my Chromebook (essentially Linux) I am finding that I have to use the controls in Alsamixer to get reasonably fine control over the DFB. The hardware volume buttons make jumps that are too large for fine control whereas with Alsamixer I can take it in single point steps. Even then much more than 7/100 or 8/100 is too loud for most of my headphones. WIth my K702 I can push it up to 24/100 which is reported by the software as being a dB gain of -31.00.


----------



## MarkF786

I have found a fix that works well on on a Mac: *you can adjust the volume in smaller increments using Shift + Option + Volume* (+/-).  That'll save me from having to return my DFB.  Whew.
  
 This is such a necessity when using the DFB with a Mac and IEMs that AQ should put it in the manual and FAQ.
  
 Edit: reading above, I see Mal already recommending this.  I had just found this tip during an online searching.  After owning Macs for 10+ years, this is the first time I've needed to use this trick, but it's a good one!


----------



## maltronics

markf786 said:


> I have found a fix that works well on on a Mac: *you can adjust the volume in smaller increments using Shift + Option + Volume* (+/-).  That'll save me from having to return my DFB.  Whew.
> 
> This is such a necessity when using the DFB with a Mac and IEMs that AQ should put it in the manual and FAQ.
> 
> Edit: reading above, I see Mal already recommending this.  I had just found this tip during an online searching.  After owning Macs for 10+ years, this is the first time I've needed to use this trick, but it's a good one!


 
  
 There you go MarkF786! I couldn't imagine how many Mac users are not aware of this fine-volume solution! Definitely useful!


----------



## pkcpga

maltronics said:


> There you go MarkF786! I couldn't imagine how many Mac users are not aware of this fine-volume solution! Definitely useful!



It would be nice if there was a similar way to adjust on your iPhone.


----------



## fjrabon

mks100 said:


> Apologies. Meant Volume Control. Corrected my reply.



No worries. People see "digital amp" and they freak out about class D amps, just wanted to clarify. Cheers.


----------



## Mr Newyear

Using DFB here. Additionally, if you're on Mac and download the program Karabiner (not sure if on windows), you can have the volume keys default to being 1/4 steps like holding Shift+Option+Volume does. I'm sure you can reprogram the keys somehow without an app (and if someone figures it out please let me know) but this has been my solution thus far. I'm using some Alclair CIEMS and i really only get to 1.5 steps on the mac's volume, so the incremental adjustment really helps.


----------



## joeq70

To those of you who have tried the DFR on both an android device and an Apple i-device: Would you say that one necessarily sounds better than the other?


----------



## SomeGuyDude

joeq70 said:


> To those of you who have tried the DFR on both an android device and an Apple i-device: Would you say that one necessarily sounds better than the other?


 
  
 Well there's no reason it would, considering it's going to result in the same signal.


----------



## joeq70

someguydude said:


> Well there's no reason it would, considering it's going to result in the same signal.


 
 The main reason I ask is because of the issues with volume control on Android. UAPP seems to solve it mostly, but it still requires fiddling with. Now that I think about it, some of my family have iphones. I'll test out the two and see if there is a difference.


----------



## brent75

You can get a varying sound just on Apple depending on what player you use.


----------



## good sound

brent75 said:


> You can get a varying sound just on Apple depending on what player you use.




I've experienced the same with Android as well.


----------



## DJ The Rocket

This might be related to my "junior head-fier" tag, but having two separate devices to use my Black with has definitely benefitted me education-wise, and prevented user error from marring my impression of this great product. I have an LG G3 and a Galaxy Tab 3, and I was getting much better sound from my tablet thank from my phone, so I investigated. It turned out that the tablet was set to ~50% system volume, ~50% UAPP volume, with my E11 at 100%, and copying those settings to my phone got me the exact same sound quality. I had my phone system volume up at 90-100%, and it was ruining the clarity, dynamic range, and soundstage. I think it got to that point because I hadn't realized changing the UAPP volume didn't change the system volume and vice versa, which is how it works in any non-audiophile player. I was making reasonable assumptions that happened to turn out to be wrong, and without that diligence I could easily have concluded that the Black hardly sounds better than the G3's native DAC, which is said to be "pretty good for a stock DAC." 

In fact, I suspect that everyone in this thread who has a poor impression of the Dragonfly's sound quality is quite likely making some similar kind of user error. They're probably not doing anything stupid, they're just doing things the way they always have for optimal SQ. It's hard to change habits that have been positively reinforced for years, sometimes, if you don't have something explicitly hit you over the head to make you take notice of this new reality.


----------



## west0ne

joeq70 said:


> To those of you who have tried the DFR on both an android device and an Apple i-device: Would you say that one necessarily sounds better than the other?


 
  
  


someguydude said:


> Well there's no reason it would, considering it's going to result in the same signal.


 
  
 Not necessarily, different Apps on the same device seem to affect the SQ so it is not inconceivable that different devices will affect SQ differently depending on how they handle USB audio devices.
  


dj the rocket said:


> This might be related to my "junior head-fier" tag, but having two separate devices to use my Black with has definitely benefitted me education-wise, and prevented user error from marring my impression of this great product. I have an LG G3 and a Galaxy Tab 3, and I was getting much better sound from my tablet thank from my phone, so I investigated. It turned out that the tablet was set to ~50% system volume, ~50% UAPP volume, with my E11 at 100%, and copying those settings to my phone got me the exact same sound quality. I had my phone system volume up at 90-100%, and it was ruining the clarity, dynamic range, and soundstage. I think it got to that point because I hadn't realized changing the UAPP volume didn't change the system volume and vice versa, which is how it works in any non-audiophile player. I was making reasonable assumptions that happened to turn out to be wrong, and without that diligence I could easily have concluded that the Black hardly sounds better than the G3's native DAC, which is said to be "pretty good for a stock DAC."
> 
> In fact, I suspect that everyone in this thread who has a poor impression of the Dragonfly's sound quality is quite likely making some similar kind of user error. They're probably not doing anything stupid, they're just doing things the way they always have for optimal SQ. It's hard to change habits that have been positively reinforced for years, sometimes, if you don't have something explicitly hit you over the head to make you take notice of this new reality.


 
 This is an issue with Android devices in general. The internal hardware volume of the DFB seems to be locked in at 44/64 so a little over 68%, when you use the hardware buttons on the device or in an App Android is adjusting the volume in software rather than hardware the DFB hardware volume doesn't change.
  
 UAPP allows you to adjust the internal hardware volume and then do some software based adjustment as well. Controlling the internal volume of the DFB not only allows you to put out much more power it also seems to improve sound quality. It is possible to change the internal hardware volume to any level you want between 0 & 64 but only on a rooted phone and this then gives you hardware volume control in any app not just UAPP. However it is my understanding that UAPP bypasses the Android Kernel and send the data straight out to the external DAC whereas native Apps will still send the data out to the DAC via the Kernel which may also impact on sound quality.
  
 This may well be contributing to some of the comments around sound quality it also makes the DFB less convenient that it should be when paired with an Android device. I'm using my DFB with a Samsung Galaxy S5 as well as a cheap Windows tablet. The DFB is an improvement over the built in headphone output on both devices.


----------



## estreeter

FWIW, spent a large chunk of Sunday morning using the DFB+Senn CX5.00G via Roon (Win 8.1) and this afternoon I'm using Banshee on Linux. The major advantage of the latter is that I can crank the OS volume slider considerably higher than I'm able to on Windows without inducing 'ouch' moments, but if you havent tried Roon with your DF (or whatever DAC(s) you currently own), I strongly recommend you download the trial. I'm skeptical of a lot of the claims made about playback software sounding appreciably better (then competitors) without any EQ, but the people behind Roon have massaged the sound beyond anything I'm hearing in F2K, iTunes etc. Its a *chronic resource hog* and stubbornly refuses to recognise several of my favorite Aussie bands, but whether its lossless, Vorbis or even VBR MP3, my music has never sounded so good.  For those who are happy with Audirvana+ / JRMC etc, Roon might not be such an eye opener but I just cant afford all 3 to compare them side-by-side. As with any recommendation re software, please take this with a bucket of salt until you've had time to try it for yourself.


----------



## SpiderNhan

west0ne said:


> Not necessarily, different Apps on the same device seem to affect the SQ so it is not inconceivable that different devices will affect SQ differently depending on how they handle USB audio devices.
> 
> This is an issue with Android devices in general. The internal hardware volume of the DFB seems to be locked in at 44/64 so a little over 68%, when you use the hardware buttons on the device or in an App Android is adjusting the volume in software rather than hardware the DFB hardware volume doesn't change.
> 
> ...


 
  
  


estreeter said:


> FWIW, spent a large chunk of Sunday morning using the DFB+Senn CX5.00G via Roon (Win 8.1) and this afternoon I'm using Banshee on Linux. The major advantage of the latter is that I can crank the OS volume slider considerably higher than I'm able to on Windows without inducing 'ouch' moments, but if you havent tried Roon with your DF (or whatever DAC(s) you currently own), I strongly recommend you download the trial. I'm skeptical of a lot of the claims made about playback software sounding appreciably better (then competitors) without any EQ, but the people behind Roon have massaged the sound beyond anything I'm hearing in F2K, iTunes etc. Its a *chronic resource hog* and stubbornly refuses to recognise several of my favorite Aussie bands, but whether its lossless, Vorbis or even VBR MP3, my music has never sounded so good.  For those who are happy with Audirvana+ / JRMC etc, Roon might not be such an eye opener but I just cant afford all 3 to compare them side-by-side. As with any recommendation re software, please take this with a bucket of salt until you've had time to try it for yourself.


 
  
 From the "Best Smartphone for audiophiles" thread:
   
 Quote:


duncan said:


> I'm now not so sure...
> 
> To clear it up, if someone with a V10 can run UAPP - and see if when opening UAPP it brings up a warning, asking you if you want to use your USB device as a DAC...
> 
> *The G5/B&O sounds vastly better using the native UAPP drivers than it dose LG's own Hi-Fi drivers.... massive difference - especially in high impedance mode.*


----------



## zoologico

Just a quick answer, Does the DFB do better in quality terms and power than the headphone-out of an iPhone 6 or iPad mini retina?.
Thanks


----------



## pkcpga

zoologico said:


> Just a quick answer, Does the DFB do better in quality terms and power than the headphone-out of an iPhone 6 or iPad mini retina?.
> Thanks



The dfb is definitely louder.


----------



## west0ne

zoologico said:


> Just a quick answer, Does the DFB do better in quality terms and power than the headphone-out of an iPhone 6 or iPad mini retina?.
> Thanks


 
 Definitely louder. SQ is subjective but I felt the DFB improved the quality of the 6S+.


----------



## canali

my monks plus will be arriving shortly...if they fit ok i might try the more refined/pricey zen 2.0
 ...but have heard they require a good amp to really drive them.
  
 any tried the df red with them and care to comment please?


----------



## SpiderNhan

canali said:


> my monks plus will be arriving shortly...if they fit ok i might try the more refined/pricey zen 2.0
> ...but have heard they require a good amp to really drive them.
> 
> any tried the df red with them and care to comment please?


 
 I got the red Monk Plus from Massdrop. Paired with the Dragonfly Red it is both a sonic and aesthetically pleasing combination. The Red gives the Monk Plus' a clear, open sound without any harshness and a strong, extended bass.


----------



## SomeGuyDude

spidernhan said:


> I got the red Monk Plus from Massdrop. Paired with the Dragonfly Red it is both a sonic and aesthetically pleasing combination. The Red gives the Monk Plus' a clear, open sound without any harshness and a strong, extended bass.


 
  
 I'm using the same combo and I'm also pleasantly surprised! Not really my main driver over the TFZ Series 5 but for $4 these are stunning.


----------



## canali

Thanks guys...heck even the stock apple earpods sound pretty good with the df red imo...looking forward to hearing the diffs with the monks plus.


----------



## DJ The Rocket

west0ne said:


> Not necessarily, different Apps on the same device seem to affect the SQ so it is not inconceivable that different devices will affect SQ differently depending on how they handle USB audio devices.
> 
> This is an issue with Android devices in general. The internal hardware volume of the DFB seems to be locked in at 44/64 so a little over 68%, when you use the hardware buttons on the device or in an App Android is adjusting the volume in software rather than hardware the DFB hardware volume doesn't change.
> 
> ...




Digging into this topic is my self-homework for the week. Getting the volume to it's ideal spot makes all the difference in SQ. One of the Audioquest dev's said something like the Dragonfly is designed to run at one volume all the time, and can't be turned up, only attenuated. This is a good product out of the box, but getting to the absolute best SQ possible is a bit of a mystery (which gets compounded even more when using an amp after the Dragonfly), and I think the dev is giving us an important clue here. Plugging headphones directly to the Dragonfly makes things more simple, but if you own good amps, you're still leaving performance on the table. 

I'm going to go interrogate Col. Mustard-Black in the insect aviary and get some answers.


----------



## Torq

dj the rocket said:


> Digging into this topic is my self-homework for the week. Getting the volume to it's ideal spot makes all the difference in SQ. One of the Audioquest dev's said something like the Dragonfly is designed to run at one volume all the time, and can't be turned up, only attenuated. This is a good product out of the box, but getting to the absolute best SQ possible is a bit of a mystery, and I think the dev is giving an important clue here. I'm going to go interrogate Col. Mustard-Black in the conservatory and get some answers.


 

 It's made MUCH easier by not having to deal with the near-random vagaries of the Android Audio subsystem.
  
 iPhone/iPad ... completely predictable.
  
 OS X, on any of the machines I have ... completely predictable.
  
 Android, on any of the myriad devices my now-sold dev-studio has on hand ... random at best.


----------



## soundfanz

Hi all,
  
 Hope this isn't a silly question.
  
 I own  a Fiio X3 II DAP. Would connecting it to a Dragonfly Red improve the Fiio sound quality at all?  I am trying to justify a Dragonfly Red purchase. Another reason I ask is I just purchased a pair of ZMF Omni headphones, and being Planars and harder to drive, I need my volume on the X3 II set at maximum. 
  
 I suppose if that didn't work I could use the Red from my laptop when playing external hard drive files or Spotify or the likes.


----------



## Torq

soundfanz said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Hope this isn't a silly question.
> 
> ...


 

 I don't think you can use the AudioQuest Dragonfly with the FiiO X3.
  
 The X3 can function AS a USB DAC, but to the best of my knowledge it can't drive an external DAC.


----------



## LazerBear

Hey guys,
  
 very interesting thread, and very interesting products. I was wondering if anyone has experience with any of the following equipment and can offer a brief sonic comparison, since this is what I am looking at for my next purchase and sadly I'm unable to test the Dragonfly anywhere before purchase:
  
 - Fiio E18
 - Cayin C5DAC
 - Shanling H3
  
 I would be using mostly my Flare R2A (micro dynamic driver, similar to EPH-100) and K7XX (on the way), listening to pretty much everything, with a focus on non-digital instruments (so classical, acoustic, rock, jazz etc.).
  
 Thank you for the input!


----------



## DJ The Rocket

torq said:


> It's made MUCH easier by not having to deal with the near-random vagaries of the Android Audio subsystem.
> 
> iPhone/iPad ... completely predictable.
> 
> ...




I'm maybe not QUITE ready to call it random, but now that you mention it, there are a lot of apparently causeless effects. Things changing, then changing back, when the only difference I can identify is the time of day. 

Does everybody have the same impression of iPhones or iPads working consistently like that? Seems like I would like switching sides, or else maybe getting one of those small laptops that can dual-boot Windows and Linux.


----------



## west0ne

dj the rocket said:


> I'm maybe not QUITE ready to call it random, but now that you mention it, there are a lot of apparently causeless effects. Things changing, then changing back, when the only difference I can identify is the time of day.
> 
> Does everybody have the same impression of iPhones or iPads working consistently like that? Seems like I would like switching sides, or else maybe getting one of those small laptops that can dual-boot Windows and Linux.




I've been using my DFB with a small, cheap (£79) Windows tablet, it's not much use for anything else but plays nice with the DFB when used with Spotify and Foobar and gives around 8-9 hours of playback provided no other apps are running.

Android devices can be hit and miss but when it works it's fine and sound quality seems to be on a par when used with Windows.


----------



## LazerBear

Computer Audiophile just posted a review of the Red and Black: http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/714-audioquest-dragonfly-red-dragonfly-black-review/
  
 Although honestly it reads more like advertisement than review.. might not have been intended but still..


----------



## headfry

hello fellow headfi'ers....I'm finally looking to buy a DFB for my iPhone 6s+, together with CCK.
  
 My reasoning for getting the black over the red is that I listen at very low to lowish volumes with my 
 SR325e and/or 80e.....and it already sounds very good straight out of the headphone jack....but I'm
 expecting some improvements in solidity, blackness, bass detail/slam, smoothness/musicality...etc.
  
 ....so, is the DFB good at low volumes with the above 2 headphones?
  
 ---->Any compelling reason to buy the Red for my use?
  
 ....I'd rather put the difference towards a future purchase of a Mojo or equivalent
 primarily for use with my Macbook Pro/Jitterbug.
  
  
 Any feedback?


----------



## DJ The Rocket

headfry said:


> hello fellow headfi'ers....I'm finally looking to buy a DFB for my iPhone 6s+, together with CCK.
> 
> My reasoning for getting the black over the red is that I listen at very low to lowish volumes with my
> SR325e and/or 80e.....and it already sounds very good straight out of the headphone jack....but I'm
> ...




I like your thought process. I'm not convinced you're right, but you are using logic. We need more info though: what source are you using? What other amps do you own? 

I'll have some actual experience to advise from later this afternoon. I've had a Black for a little over a week, and this morning I took it back to the store and walked back out with a Red. As I'm using an amp between the DF and phones, my decision has nothing to do with volume. I expect that the Red will actually sound better. I'll post when I have info later!


----------



## headfry

hi thanks for the speedy, friendly reply!
  
 My source is IOS - iPhone 6S+ and iPad.
 On my Mac, I use ALO the Island/Jitterbug w/my GS1000i (very euphonic/great combo! Potent tone and detail!).
  
 My concern is that over the iPhone at low volume levels, will the difference between DFB and DFR be easily
 discernable, and will is be worth spending $170 CND more for the Red?
  
 ....do they both work well at low volume, or is the higher powered Red more difficult to use at low volumes?
  
 At the same time, many bought the black and some upgraded to the Red, it may be worth getting the Red just
 to keep cognitive dissonance away!


----------



## headfry

--- on 2nd thought and after pondering yet more reviews, I've decided to go with Dragonfly Red,
 esp. as I've read that the upgrade in sq/soundstage/detail is well worth it, and that it controls better
 at low volumes.
  
 I'll have it in a couple days and will be able to report back at that time!


----------



## MrBenvolent

Apologies if this has been covered in the thread, but I haven't read all 88 pages yet and a search turned up nothing...
  

How does the Black compare to the DacPort Slim? I have the latter but find the sound a touch clinical with my Sonorous VIs/MacBook Pro and they have a *very* noticeable noise-floor/hiss which is annoying...I was hoping that the Black would be both warmer and quieter?
I presume the Black would have more than enough power to drive my Bose QC25s well from my iPhone 6s? I find these quite challenging to drive!
Considering the above criteria, does the Red suit even more even when considering the extra cost?
  
  
 Cheers!


----------



## brent75

1. Dragonflies are very musical, not clinical.

2. Yes

3. Would only get Red if you intend on using it with more than a Bose ANC.


----------



## MrBenvolent

brent75 said:


> 1. Dragonflies are very musical, not clinical.
> 
> 2. Yes
> 
> 3. Would only get Red if you intend on using it with more than a Bose ANC.


 
  
 Thanks!
  
 Would be used for the Bose on flights, Shure SE530 when walking and FAD Sonorous VIs at home in preference to my DacPort Classic and/or Slim.
  
 By that measure you would recommend the Red then!? Noise floor does bother me and I wonder if the extra power in the Red would cause the same issues as the Slim on my 'phones with BA drivers...


----------



## fjrabon

headfry said:


> hi thanks for the speedy, friendly reply!
> 
> My source is IOS - iPhone 6S+ and iPad.
> On my Mac, I use ALO the Island/Jitterbug w/my GS1000i (very euphonic/great combo! Potent tone and detail!).
> ...




The red is actually easier to use at lower volume levels because it has more precise volume control steps.


----------



## brent75

mrbenvolent said:


> Thanks!
> 
> Would be used for the Bose on flights, Shure SE530 when walking and FAD Sonorous VIs at home in preference to my DacPort Classic and/or Slim.
> 
> By that measure you would recommend the Red then!? Noise floor does bother me and I wonder if the extra power in the Red would cause the same issues as the Slim on my 'phones with BA drivers...


 
 On 2nd thought, you might like Red better. Bose tends to accentuate the bass, so the separation qualities of Red are a good match.
  
 I use Red with an ANC headphone - the AKG N60 NC and it's a great combo.
  
 You can look at my signature to see all the pairings I've tried Red with. Zero hiss, even with my Westone W30s.


----------



## estreeter

All I can contribute is that the DFB should have more than enough gain to drive any pair of Grados _ I really think you will be happier with the Red based on earlier comments in this thread. I would be inclined to opt for an amp with an external volume control given your requirements


----------



## nirudhap

west0ne said:


> UAPP allows you to adjust the internal hardware volume and then do some software based adjustment as well. Controlling the internal volume of the DFB not only allows you to put out much more power it also seems to improve sound quality. It is possible to change the internal hardware volume to any level you want between 0 & 64 but only on a rooted phone and this then gives you hardware volume control in any app not just UAPP. However it is my understanding that UAPP bypasses the Android Kernel and send the data straight out to the external DAC whereas native Apps will still send the data out to the DAC via the Kernel which may also impact on sound quality.


 
 Hi @west0ne ,
  
 Could you tell me how to control the hardware volume of the DragonFly (red) in Android on a rooted device? At the moment I am on a stock ROM but would consider rooting as on my Note 5 the volume seems to be at zero unless I use UAPP. On a few rare occasions if I run UAPP before plugging in the DF it reports that the device has no hardware volume control. At this point other apps can play via the DF and be heard though at a very low volume.
  
 In both cases the ROM shows the audio path as the USB DragongFly.
  
 Thanks!


----------



## west0ne

nirudhap said:


> Hi @west0ne
> ,
> 
> Could you tell me how to control the hardware volume of the DragonFly (red) in Android on a rooted device? At the moment I am on a stock ROM but would consider rooting as on my Note 5 the volume seems to be at zero unless I use UAPP. On a few rare occasions if I run UAPP before plugging in the DF it reports that the device has no hardware volume control. At this point other apps can play via the DF and be heard though at a very low volume.
> ...




I only have the DFB and no access to the DF Red. With the DFB and a rooted phone you need to install Alsamixer and a terminal emulator from the Play store. You can then use the Alsa controls through command line to adjust the internal hardware volume. I'm sure there must be a user out there who has a rooted phone and the DFR who could give it a go. If you check back on my previous posts I have listed the commands I used with the DFB.

Also note that this doesn't work on all devices. I have a Samsung tablet that recognises the DFB but won't play audio and reports an error when trying to use Alsa so it could be device related. I think Android and USB audio is hit and miss.


----------



## nirudhap

Thanks @west0ne . It is definitely hit and miss. I tried a nexus 5 (without UAPP) and it does play audio but just has no volume control and again the volume was too low to be useful.


----------



## Pastapipo

Dragonfly Black vs Zorloo ZuperDAC
 Fight!


----------



## yacobx

if i intend to only use the dragonfly for streaming music on the go with my iphone, should i stick with the black version?


----------



## pkcpga

yacobx said:


> if i intend to only use the dragonfly for streaming music on the go with my iphone, should i stick with the black version?



For an iPhone and if your using sensitive IEM's or headphones I'd stick with the red, the black has poor volume control at lower levels.


----------



## tommo21

pkcpga said:


> For an iPhone and if your using sensitive IEM's or headphones I'd stick with the red, the black has poor volume control at lower levels.


 
 That's not my experience using the DFB with sensitive IEM's on the Ipod Touch 6. It handles them just fine at low volume levels. DFB would do just fine for streaming music on the go with IEM's. I also tried the red and returned it because  I felt they almost were too powerful for my IEM's. They both have their strenghts, but in the end I preferred the black for my use.


----------



## zolom

I use the DFB with my S7E and SE846 iems. Sound is superb, mostly warm with a good soundstage. I did try the DFR (same settings) and found it too bright (more emphasizd on the highs). Being a bass head, I prefer the DFB.


----------



## pkcpga

tommo21 said:


> That's not my experience using the DFB with sensitive IEM's on the Ipod Touch 6. It handles them just fine at low volume levels. DFB would do just fine for streaming music on the go with IEM's. I also tried the red and returned it because  I felt they almost were too powerful for my IEM's. They both have their strenghts, but in the end I preferred the black for my use.



I found the red too bright also but with the black I found I could never get the volume right each click up was random sometimes adjusting way too high other times doing nothing. With the red it was even adjusting on volume but too bright for me so I returned both and went with the mojo. But that's just my personal experience.


----------



## pinoyman

please do try the RED plus the JITTERBUG in your set up!
 theres an improvement on the presentation and sq of the sound.
 i cant tell yet, too early to say, but i hear improvement and i liked it.
  
 just bought it this today.


----------



## canali

pinoyman said:


> please do try the RED plus the JITTERBUG in your set up!
> theres an improvement on the presentation and sq of the sound.
> i cant tell yet, too early to say, but i hear improvement and i liked it.
> 
> just bought it this today.


 
  
 and from an opposite perspective, thus far, i've found little to no difference with the jitterbug.
 i'll attempt more discreet listening this wkend.


----------



## good sound

Same here. Sometimes I think I hear a very slight difference with the Jitterbug. Slightly quieter and blacker background, but upon closer scrutiny I am fairly certain there is no real audible difference using my Moto G3-Dragonfly Red- Oppo PM-3 set-up.


----------



## estreeter

tommo21 said:


> That's not my experience using the DFB with sensitive IEM's on the Ipod Touch 6. It handles them just fine at low volume levels. DFB would do just fine for streaming music on the go with IEM's. I also tried the red and returned it because  I felt they almost were too powerful for my IEM's. They both have their strenghts, but in the end I preferred the black for my use.


 
  
 Good to get that info firsthand - I suspect that iDevices might work better with the DFB at low volume levels. I had the opposite experience with my Lenovo tablet yesterday - sleep deprived and I really wanted something mellow with my Senn CX5.00G but the best I could manage was the level I normally listen at in a quiet room and that was too loud on a lot of my music. You know something isn't right when you have to go back to the headphone out on your device and put your DAC in a drawer, but I completely get that AQ had to make the DFB work across a huge range of devices and the whole ballgame changes when I get on a bus and the 'max recommended volume' from the HO is too wimpy to compete with the noise around me. Perfect world, I would love to have the DFB connected to the back of a CUBOX or similar small form factor PC 24/7, feeding a dedicated amp with its own volume control, but that kinda defeats the whole portable dongle thing  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 (FWIW, I'm seeing more reviews of other DAC/amps claim that the default gain is just too high for most phones in the 16-32-ohm range, and that's the majority of consumer-oriented headphones/IEMs on the planet in 2016 - somewhere in the quest to drive niche products that appeal to 5-10% of the market, manufacturers seem to have overcompensated in the gain dept - at least IMO)


----------



## pkcpga

estreeter said:


> Good to get that info firsthand - I suspect that iDevices might work better with the DFB at low volume levels. I had the opposite experience with my Lenovo tablet yesterday - sleep deprived and I really wanted something mellow with my Senn CX5.00G but the best I could manage was the level I normally listen at in a quiet room and that was too loud on a lot of my music. You know something isn't right when you have to go back to the headphone out on your device and put your DAC in a drawer, but I completely get that AQ had to make the DFB work across a huge range of devices and the whole ballgame changes when I get on a bus and the 'max recommended volume' from the HO is too wimpy to compete with the noise around me. Perfect world, I would love to have the DFB connected to the back of a CUBOX or similar small form factor PC 24/7, feeding a dedicated amp with its own volume control, but that kinda defeats the whole portable dongle thing
> 
> (FWIW, I'm seeing more reviews of other DAC/amps claim that the default gain is just too high for most phones in the 16-32-ohm range, and that's the majority of consumer-oriented headphones/IEMs on the planet in 2016 - somewhere in the quest to drive niche products that appeal to 5-10% of the market, manufacturers seem to have overcompensated in the gain dept - at least IMO)




I agree the gain is too high on most or all DAC/amps without gain control, no issues with lowering gain or volume on my mojo or the headstage arrow before that. It would have been nice if audioquest came out with an app or something to help control gain or maybe version three will have a simple gain switch.


----------



## Wilderness

I tried the Dragonfly Red with my iPad Pro (and Apple's lightning to USB connection kit) this week to listen to music with my car's stereo system, but I found it to be unacceptable with a thick veil and audible distortion.  Turning down the volume on my iPad, and increasing volume with my car's audio control, eliminated the distortion but not the veil.  I was surprised by how awful it sounds with my car audio system.  The same Dragonfly Red DAC sounds great with my home audio system, which includes an iMac, JRiver, PSB speakers and an SVS sub.
  
 I often  listen to music with my car's 12 speaker audio system with my iPad Pro connected directly through its 3.5 mm analog headphone jack.  I use the Jetaudio app, the Bongiovi sound add on, and the Phoenix sound profile, and it all adds up to a really nice sound in my car.  I purchased a Blue Dragon cable for this analog headphone jack connection, and I am blown away by how awesome music sounds, with wonderful warmth and good details, with this set up in my car.
  
 I wonder whether the Dragonfly Black would sound better than the Dragonfly Red with my car's audio system.
  
 I also have Sony's ZX2 DAP, which sounds nice through my car's audio system.  The iPad Pro produces more volume and warmth, though, in my car.  I have two great options now, but looking ahead I wonder what will happen to car audio quality when Apple kills the headphone jack from its iPhones and iPads.  I am going to hang on to my iPhone 6 and iPad Pro until a viable option is available.  The Dragonfly DAC does not seem to be a solution for car audio.


----------



## SomeGuyDude

wilderness said:


> looking ahead I wonder what will happen to car audio quality when Apple kills the headphone jack from its iPhones and iPads.


 
  
 speaking personally, it just means I'm never getting an iDevice again. I'll stick with Android from now on.


----------



## yacobx

Thank you for the thoughts guys, looks like ill be getting the DFB as I dont need to drive headphones, only IEM's. Also, I do not like bright sounding dac/amps.


----------



## yacobx

does anyone have the hifime 9018 sabre dac and can compare the two??


----------



## west0ne

someguydude said:


> speaking personally, it just means I'm never getting an iDevice again. I'll stick with Android from now on.


 
 The new Moto Z comes without a built-in headphone output, instead you get an adapter that connects to the USB so don't be too surprised if other Android devices start going the same way as well. If Android devices do start dropping the headphone jack it may at least focus attention on better universal USB DAC support. I'm not an iDevice fan myself but if they do manage to convince people that they don't need a headphone output you can be sure that other phone manufacturers will follow as they will see it as an opportunity to sell wireless headphones and wired adapters and of course they have to compete on things like the 'thinness' of phones.


----------



## SomeGuyDude

west0ne said:


> The new Moto Z comes without a built-in headphone output, instead you get an adapter that connects to the USB so don't be too surprised if other Android devices start going the same way as well. If Android devices do start dropping the headphone jack it may at least focus attention on better universal USB DAC support. I'm not an iDevice fan myself but if they do manage to convince people that they don't need a headphone output you can be sure that other phone manufacturers will follow as they will see it as an opportunity to sell wireless headphones and wired adapters and of course they have to compete on things like the 'thinness' of phones.


 
  
 ....wow. Welp, no Moto Z for me.


----------



## canali

Anyone check out the opus # 11
...compared to df red?
https://youtu.be/VWlbReetZb8


----------



## Slaphead

maltronics said:


> There you go MarkF786! I couldn't imagine how many Mac users are not aware of this fine-volume solution! Definitely useful!




I'm a Mac user, and have been for the best part of 25 years, I also support Macs in businesses, and I never knew that. Thank you.

Now, if they'd only introduce something like that for the iToy volume control. The slider method just doesn't work with any accuracy.

By the way - new DFR owner here, and looking forward to seeing how it will do with some of my harder to drive HPs when listening from an iPod 5th gen on my balcony.


----------



## Sphyn0x

Do I need to use original apple usb camera cable or will dragonfly work with cheap ebay cables?


----------



## Slaphead

sphyn0x said:


> Do I need to use original apple usb camera cable or will dragonfly work with cheap ebay cables?




If Apple original then yes, as long as the adapter isn't defective.

Cheap crap from ebay - Your milage may vary a lot


----------



## fjrabon

sphyn0x said:


> Do I need to use original apple usb camera cable or will dragonfly work with cheap ebay cables?




I've never been able to get the eBay cables to work for anything other than charging, but I haven't tried every single one.


----------



## Liviu Nicolof

Hi,
  
  
 Can someone  help me to know the difference between USB OTB and USB Host. I have seen on gsmarena some specs an  I did not get it , if DFB will work with USB Host.


----------



## pkcpga

sphyn0x said:


> Do I need to use original apple usb camera cable or will dragonfly work with cheap ebay cables?



Original Apple camera cable only.


----------



## Pedro Dixon

brent75 said:


> Ok. So I've had Red for about 3 weeks now (augmented by the Jitterbug). I'm definitely familiar with the sound and happy with it. But the entire time I've always been curious how it compares to Mojo. I've never been able to keep off the Mojo thread, and the fact that it's 1200+ pages now and that Mojo has so many glowing reviews on outside sites had me lusting for a difference. I knew I could not totally "settle" w/ the Red until I heard Mojo firsthand myself. So I sprung for it...got it yesterday...and here's my honest-to-goodness, completely transparent thought after a day of listening:
> 
> _*I personally can't tell any difference between Dragonfly Red and Mojo*._
> 
> ...


 
 This is pretty my experience. I keep both as I can't bring myself to sell either but I sure find it hard to tell much difference between them. Yes, the Mojo has the slightest of edges towards ounding better, a better insight into the music but i'm talking about the smallest of margins possible. 
  
 Money considered, and size, I would choose the DFR all day long. Mojo is a great product, but I don't feel the DFR gets the merit it ought to in comparison.


----------



## pkcpga

pedro dixon said:


> This is pretty my experience. I keep both as I can't bring myself to sell either but I sure find it hard to tell much difference between them. Yes, the Mojo has the slightest of edges towards ounding better, a better insight into the music but i'm talking about the smallest of margins possible.
> 
> Money considered, and size, I would choose the DFR all day long. Mojo is a great product, but I don't feel the DFR gets the merit it ought to in comparison.



If you have music at higher res there is a great difference if not the difference becomes smaller. Although tidal will play mqa soon and mojo accepts that format, the df don't accept too many high res formats so depends on your needs.


----------



## Torq

pkcpga said:


> If you have music at higher res there is a great difference if not the difference becomes smaller. Although tidal will play mqa soon and mojo accepts that format, the df don't accept too many high res formats so depends on your needs.


 

 Mojo does NOT support MQA.
  
 All DACs are supposed to play MQA content as if it were standard PCM, Mojo included, but it does _not_ have any specific support for MQA and won't be able to take advantage of most of the alleged benefits of it (just the ADC timing correction in MQA processed sources, which is true of all DACs anyway).


----------



## Pedro Dixon

pkcpga said:


> If you have music at higher res there is a great difference if not the difference becomes smaller. Although tidal will play mqa soon and mojo accepts that format, the df don't accept too many high res formats so depends on your needs.


 
 I used to have a lot of Hi Res music, but after downsampling the same files, I found, blindfolded (with no expectation bias, which is scientifically proven) I heard no difference. The best website I discovered was this for finding out which pressings are the best, and yield higher SQ:
  
http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=michael+jackson&album=thriller
  
 You should conduct your own tests, its fun. My conclusion is people like the big numbers. There are many theories online showing why anything above 16/44 is pointless. I appreciate this is a very divisive stance but having done my own tests, as per above. I opted to save disk space and seek out often out of print albums on Ebay. This has probably given me better sonic gains than buying more expensive HiFi gear, in my experience. 
  
 It allowed me to seek the best masters possible, in this instance, i.e the above link, Michael Jacksons's 'Thriller'. The Hi Res Dynamic Range is awful compared with the Japanese 35 -8P, which in contrast slaughters not only the DSD, but any other version I have heard. 
  
 Furthermore, I have also found Vinyl in many instances can sound much better, so I ended up ripping my own Vinyl with a ADC and must say some of the results have been shockingly good. Most remasters, nowadays are actually worse than the first release. I don't know what type of music you listen to but my library consists of everything from underground german techno, to steely dan, everything except classical. The amount of Vinyl rips in my library is growing by the week. 
  
 I have not read anywhere that the Mojo will support MQA, the Dragonfly DACs are likely to with imminent updates once (if) MQA takes off. Can you point me to where it states the Mojo, or any Chord DAC will be MQA compatible, this is honestly the first I have heard of it. I know Schiit Audio have no plans of going down the MQA route, which is a shame as the people I know that have heard it were impressed to say the least. 
  
 Reverting back to my thoughts with Hi Res audio, my claim is based on the information here:
  
http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=173275
  
 We all hear things differently, I am not suggesting you cannot hear a difference, perhaps you can. But despite wanting to, I can't....


----------



## pkcpga

pedro dixon said:


> I used to have a lot of Hi Res music, but after downsampling the same files, I found, blindfolded (with no expectation bias, which is scientifically proven) I heard no difference. The best website I discovered was this for finding out which pressings are the best, and yield higher SQ:
> 
> http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=michael+jackson&album=thriller
> 
> ...




The df only can accept up to 96 so it will down sample, my mojo plays full DSD or dxd and chord sent an email about an update for mqa which might be for my Dave, but I'd assume they'd roll it out for the mojo as well since it plays well over the mqa rates, the df does not play anything over 24/96 so most likely not. Condensing hi res I found to sound worse than just playing cd quality since your relying on whatever your playing from to condense the music. For myself there is a very noticeable difference in timing and layering with high res music, much more on my home stereo than headphones but still present there as well.


----------



## Pedro Dixon

pkcpga said:


> The df only can accept up to 96 so it will down sample, my mojo plays full DSD or dxd and chord sent an email about an update for mqa which might be for my Dave, but I'd assume they'd roll it out for the mojo as well since it plays well over the mqa rates, the df does not play anything over 24/96 so most likely not. Condensing hi res I found to sound worse than just playing cd quality since your relying on whatever your playing from to condense the music.


 
  
 "In summary - a bandwidth limited signal (i.e one which is chopped off at a given high frequency - in the case of CD sample rate (the 44 in 16/44) that's about 22KHz (being half the value of the 44KHz sampling rate)) with a limited dynamic range (range of quiet to loud - in the case of CD sample depth (the 16 in 16/44) approx. 95db) can, in theory, be perfectly encoded to digital, and subsequently reconstructed into the **exact** original signal. No stair steps are involved! This is because of the "maths" involved in the coding/decoding algorithms."

 There is also an implicit assumption that frequencies that can't be heard (or for that matter, in most cases, re-produced by your speakers) are of no relevance.

 But there might well follow several pages on this, and you really don't want "the detail" unless you're quite a good mathematician 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Not a case of condensing my friend, merely recognising the limits of the human ear. If you own the DAVE DAC, this certainly warrants a read. 
  
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyquist%E2%80%93Shannon_sampling_theorem


----------



## Pedro Dixon

I don't think there's any room in Hugo or Mojo for MQA. DAVE, may well be a different story.


----------



## pkcpga

pedro dixon said:


> I don't think there's any room in Hugo or Mojo for MQA. DAVE, may well be a different story.



I sent them an email since all currents chords play all the same formats so I doubt they will change that now but you never know.


----------



## Pedro Dixon

Has anyone noticed in iO10 notifications (swipe right from lock screen), it tells you the name, and model of the DAC your music is being played to? Not, that we need reminding but a nice touch nonetheless.


----------



## Pedro Dixon

pkcpga said:


> I sent them an email since all currents chords play all the same formats so I doubt they will change that now but you never know.


 
 Well, it would be a huge bonus to me should Mojo take on MQA (sadly until i see it, I remain doubtful). I remain on the fence with Roon as a current Audirvana user but this would sway me.


----------



## fjrabon

pedro dixon said:


> Has anyone noticed in iO10 notifications (swipe right from lock screen), it tells you the name, and model of the DAC your music is being played to? Not, that we need reminding but a nice touch nonetheless.




Has to do with iPhone 7 doing away with the headphone jack. It will now know what headphones you're using (or DAC). There's even some talk that it will use this information to create specialized EQ for certain headphones taking into account their individual frequency response.


----------



## estreeter

pedro dixon said:


> Well, it would be a huge bonus to me should Mojo take on MQA (sadly until i see it, I remain doubtful). I remain on the fence with Roon as a current Audirvana user but this would sway me.


 
  
 Short of all current Mojo users sending their DAC to MQA Inc to be retrofitted, presumably at a cost, I dont see that happening. If Chord wanted to get on the MQA bandwagon with the next iteration of the Mojo, there would still be the roadblock around applying the MQA firmware to a programmable DAC (FPGA DACs like Hugo and Mojo) - I dont see it happening. There are so many problems with this technology - from ownership to implementation - that I just dont see it gaining any traction beyond the high-end niche market, whatever noises MQA Inc might be making to the contrary. I wont link to Darko's infamous article re MQA sounding better - its generated enough heat already.


----------



## pkcpga

estreeter said:


> Short of all current Mojo users sending their DAC to MQA Inc to be retrofitted, presumably at a cost, I dont see that happening. If Chord wanted to get on the MQA bandwagon with the next iteration of the Mojo, there would still be the roadblock around applying the MQA firmware to a programmable DAC (FPGA DACs like Hugo and Mojo) - I dont see it happening. There are so many problems with this technology - from ownership to implementation - that I just dont see it gaining any traction beyond the high-end niche market, whatever noises MQA Inc might be making to the contrary. I wont link to Darko's infamous article re MQA sounding better - its generated enough heat already.




My bluesound and naim DAC already have been updated and ready to play meridians mqa and the Dave from chord has an update coming soon an email was sent for that device. Still waiting on a response from chord if my mojo will also be updated. I know company's like Sonus are not receiving the ability to play mqa simply because they have DAC that only play cd quality and nothing above.


----------



## Slaphead

The DFR is an interesting little device. It certainly impresses dynamically compared to my iPod's headphone out. Using Beyer DT1770 Pro headphones, switching back to my iPod HP out after a good 20 minutes of listening to the DFR shows the iPod to be somewhat flat, dull, and uninspiring in comparison. 

Admittedly the DT1770 Pro is probably a bit too hard to driven properly by an iPod touch, but something I noticed is that when your ears get used to the flatter, duller, less dynamic sound of the iPod then there appears to be a larger soundstage with better instrument separation. Switching to the DFR immediately impresses with it's dynamic sound, but to my ears the soundstage collapses and things become a tad more congested, with trying to listen to individual instruments becoming harder to do. I also noticed a slight smearing in the treble, a glare if you like, which I think may be responsible to the congestion I heard.

That said, it was late last night, I was tired, and these are just my first impressions. However for the size of the device, the fact that it has plenty of power on tap, and the ease with which you can go portable (no ridiculously fat stack with cables everywhere), then I do have to say that it's a keeper.

It'll be very interesting to see how the DFR holds up against the Audeze Cipher cable on my SINEs. It may well be a good option for those who bought the SINEs without the Cipher cable, and for those who want to use the SINE with Android. Plus the DFR has the advantage in that it can be used with all headphones.

Oh, just out of curiosity I have some IEMs with inline controls for iOS. Would I be right in assuming that the inline controls will NOT function with the Dragonfly? It's no big deal as I'll tend to use IEMs straight from the iToys headphone port anyway.


----------



## west0ne

slaphead said:


> ..........
> 
> Oh, just out of curiosity I have some IEMs with inline controls for iOS. Would I be right in assuming that the inline controls will NOT function with the Dragonfly? It's no big deal as I'll tend to use IEMs straight from the iToys headphone port anyway.


 
  
 Inline controls won't work when plugged into the DFR/DFB.


----------



## Slaphead

west0ne said:


> Inline controls won't work when plugged into the DFR/DFB.




As I expected, thanks.

Thinking about it, It would be nice if the Dragonfly had controls, in a similar manner to the Cipher cable, as this would enable volume changes without needing to pull the iToy out of my pocket. However the controls would just be another point of failure, so maybe not such a good idea.


----------



## west0ne

slaphead said:


> As I expected, thanks.
> 
> Thinking about it, It would be nice if the Dragonfly had controls, in a similar manner to the Cipher cable, as this would enable volume changes without needing to pull the iToy out of my pocket. However the controls would just be another point of failure, so maybe not such a good idea.


 
 I picked up a cheap bluetooth media remote from Amazon, it's rechargeable and fits on a keyring; cost me £4, controls volume and track skip. I can leave my phone in my inside coat pocket or bag and still have control, although pulling out the phone isn't a big deal.


----------



## Slaphead

west0ne said:


> I picked up a cheap bluetooth media remote from Amazon, it's rechargeable and fits on a keyring; cost me £4, controls volume and track skip. I can leave my phone in my inside coat pocket or bag and still have control, although pulling out the phone isn't a big deal.




Yeah, I've seen those, and keep thinking to myself that I must get one, but for some reason I never seem to get around to it. I guess pulling my iToy out of my pocket to adjust volume and/or track skip isn't that much of the PITA as it seems like at the time


----------



## elicohen

I also find the Red too loud on a PC.
 In fact, so loud I cannot enjoy it.
 My previous DAC (iFi) had the onboard volume level to attenuate.
  
 With both Win7 and 10 (laptop and desktop) I find myself sweating when level is above 15...just too loud
 And this is with not so efficient Fostex.
  
 Not sure how to make this work...I love the sound of the DFR.
  
 Any suggestions?


----------



## west0ne

elicohen said:


> I also find the Red too loud on a PC.
> In fact, so loud I cannot enjoy it.
> My previous DAC (iFi) had the onboard volume level to attenuate.
> 
> ...


 
 So far the only viable option I have found is to set the hardware volume at a level that is a little over where it is comfortable and then use the media players built-in volume controls to fine tune. 
  
 I use Foobar for local media and Spotify premium for streaming and both have software volume controls. I'm using mine with the DFB but have the same volume issue. It's also the same on my Linux and Chromebook machines.


----------



## Nimzabo

Hi there.
 Many questions as you can read below.
  
 I'm thinking in buying a Black Dragonfly for my desktop.
 Currently i have a Xonar DG card, HK Soundsticks III Speakers and Monster DNA Pro 2.0 Headphones.
 Before someone suggests let me point out that i'm not going to change any of my peripherals.
  
 My PC Case it not in a very accessible place, it is in a corner between the wall and my desk.
 I have the speakers connected in the back of the case and it's difficult to reach there constantly.
 The speakers i usually connect to the front of my case (CM Silencio 452).
 I'm aware that the headphones should sound better when connected directly to the sound card at the back of the case.
 That said with the Xonar sound card there's no big question changing between Speakers and headphones.
  
 But if i buy a Dragonfly and stick it in the back of the case with my speakers connected to it, then how do i switch between speakers and headphones?
 Also the speakers Subwoofer is on the opposite side of my desk meaning that the speakers cord connecting the computer case is a bit stretched.
 There's no way i am going to plug and unplug my speakers each time i want to hear the headphones.
 Are the Xonar card and the Dragonfly compatible? For exemple i could hear the speakers on the dragonfly and the headphones as i already do, from the Xonar on the front.
 (although this last solution looks a bit far-fetched)
  
 Buying the Dragonfly i should then remove my Xonar, right?
 But then how do i use the Dragonfly with the headphones?
 Would it be possible to plug somekind of 'Y' cable to the Dragonfly and then have both the speakers and the headphones connected there?
 (and in case of an affirmative answer would it be easy to switch between them in the software or the OS ?)
  
 Or maybe i could have the Dragonfly always connected in the front of the case and get an extension for my speakers cable?
 It wouldn't be very pretty with the speakers cable going over the case but it could work, i guess.
 Should the dragonfly worth the price over the Xonar DG?


----------



## elicohen

In hope Audioquest will offer a software solution in a recent hardware upgrade.
  
 Or it should be stated clearly these units are not for "computers" with headphones use, but for handheld devices where the volume level is acceptable.
  
 This is very frustrating. I waited for the DFR for a long time to become available and liked the iPhone demo I had.
  
 But I cannot use it at home or in the office and it is a shame...


----------



## brent75

elicohen said:


> Or it should be stated clearly these units are not for "computers" with headphones use, but for handheld devices where the volume level is acceptable.


 
  
 What are you talking about? I use my DFR almost exclusively with my laptop...with zero issues whatsoever...and it sounds fantastic. Why would they put a statement like what you're suggesting?


----------



## Pedro Dixon

elicohen said:


> In hope Audioquest will offer a software solution in a recent hardware upgrade.
> 
> Or it should be stated clearly these units are not for "computers" with headphones use, but for handheld devices where the volume level is acceptable.
> 
> ...


 
 What on earth are you talking about? Only now, have the recent Dragonfly DACs become mobile phone friendly. 
  
 You can plug any DF into ANY computer, be it PC or Mac, route the audio to it, and assuming you have headphones connected, you will hear sound. Mobile phones, are mini computers nowadays, the only difference with the DF DACs is they now require less power, thus they can be used with phones. 
  
 I am very confused at what your understanding is of these DACs, perhaps any DAC for that matter ! 
  
 When you realise you can use a DF with your computer, I would recommend the Dragonfly tail, which will reduce the stress on the board of your computer.


----------



## Pedro Dixon

Unless you do not have a single USB port, or maybe a PC that is 20 years old, there is no reason why you cannot use ANY of the DFs. This applies to the previous gens too !


----------



## elicohen

Why such harsh tone?
  
 My statement above is regarding the very loud sound level coming out of the DFR when connected to ta PC, unlike an iPhone.
  
 The level is so loud, it becomes very difficult to set an acceptable volume level (I am talking playing system level at 2 to 4, with the software level, be it Foobar, JRiver Tidal or iTunes, also set to a bare minimum).
  
 With an iPhone, there is no such issue, regardless of the headphones impedance (and I have tried some demanding, some relaxed)


----------



## Ray1684

Hi all, just started reading up on the first few pages of this thread, but was wondering if someone could kindly help me answer some questions regarding the DF Red/Blacks. 
  
 I'm currently using the AK100II with my Shure SE846, but was wondering whether the Red/Black would be a upgrade to the AK100II?
  
 Planning to pair up the DF with my Samsung S7 Edge, which I've read in the earlier threads, were having issues with Spotify and some audio players (require UAPP to get a decent volume out of the DF Red/Black). Has this been fixed by a firmware? Either by AQ or Samsung? Thanks.


----------



## brent75

elicohen said:


> Why such harsh tone?
> 
> My statement above is regarding the very loud sound level coming out of the DFR when connected to ta PC, unlike an iPhone.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Sorry - I don't think anyone is being harsh...more like stupefied.
  
 You've described a personal incident that I haven't seen experienced by anyone else...and it's completely contrary to what the rest of us have experienced...and from there you think Audioquest should issue some short of blanket statement about it NOT working with the exact scenario for which it's intended (and has been intended since the original device was invented years ago).


----------



## elicohen

I think I was misunderstood.
  
 I have nothing against the DFR. On the contrary!!
 I own a DragonFly Red, Dragontail and a Jitterbug
 My only wish is to enjoy them, and with my computer, I find it hard as the volume is so high, even at minimum settings.
  
 What I meant to say is, that there should be a recognition that on a computer (i.e., not portal phone) the experienced sound level may be too high for some listeners.
  
 And I am not alone with this -- I found other references (and by Google search I found this thread).
  
  
 If I offended anyone, I apologize!


----------



## brent75

elicohen said:


> I think I was misunderstood.
> 
> I have nothing against the DFR. On the contrary!!
> I own a DragonFly Red, Dragontail and a Jitterbug
> ...


 
  
 No worries - thanks for clarifying. I think I speak for all of us when I say no one was offended!
  
 I use DFR, Dragontail and Jitterbug as well. Mine is with a Macbook Air playing through Roon, into my Hifiman HE400S cans. I just checked volume -- I'm at 32. I wouldn't imagine I scale more than a few clicks up or down, depending on the quality of the source track. It is impressive how much horsepower the little DFR has.


----------



## elicohen

This is just the thing: most complain volume is not loud enough.
  
 But even with high impedance, non-efficient headphones, I experience volume to be too high


----------



## west0ne

ray1684 said:


> Hi all, just started reading up on the first few pages of this thread, but was wondering if someone could kindly help me answer some questions regarding the DF Red/Blacks.
> 
> I'm currently using the AK100II with my Shure SE846, but was wondering whether the Red/Black would be a upgrade to the AK100II?
> 
> Planning to pair up the DF with my Samsung S7 Edge, which I've read in the earlier threads, were having issues with Spotify and some audio players (require UAPP to get a decent volume out of the DF Red/Black). Has this been fixed by a firmware? Either by AQ or Samsung? Thanks.


 
 Can't answer the first part about comparison with AK100 but in response the 2nd part there hasn't been any update to either the DF or S7E to address the volume and at the moment unless you are rooted you will only get full hardware volume control with UAPP.


----------



## canali

elicohen said:


> I think I was misunderstood.
> 
> I have nothing against the DFR. On the contrary!!
> I own a DragonFly Red, Dragontail and a Jitterbug
> ...


 
  
 i agree....also find with the DF Red i can only listen in the 4-10% of max volume with iems..
 with cans a bit higher, depending on efficiency: sony mdr7520 easier to drive it's more like 10-16%,
 but with hungrier senn650s more like 25-35% is all i can bear.
  
 do take note I like to keep my hearing and only play at lower-moderate volumes


----------



## estreeter

pkcpga said:


> My bluesound and naim DAC already have been updated and ready to play meridians mqa and the Dave from chord has an update coming soon an email was sent for that device. Still waiting on a response from chord if my mojo will also be updated. I know company's like Sonus are not receiving the ability to play mqa simply because they have DAC that only play cd quality and nothing above.


 
  
 As I said, if your Mojo is to be updated it will need to be packed up and sent to MQA Inc - at least that's my understanding from the Darko article. My DFB plays the 2L MQA downloads without issue - obviously its not taking full advantage of the technology, but I still hear music when I load files into any player capable of decoding FLAC. I dont think MQA are aiming specifically at music 'above CD quality', particularly given the provenance issues around so-called 'hi-res audio' from companies like HDTracks. I'd far prefer to have a favorite CD remastered (or better, re-recorded ..) and played back on Sonos than any combination of DSD/DXD/whatever. And I'm not even going to touch on 'the myth of 24-bit audio' - I'm happy with any lossless 16-bit I can get my hands on, and I've been getting some really good results with lossy Opus encoding of same recently, but that's a topic for another thread.


----------



## estreeter

elicohen said:


> Why such harsh tone?
> 
> My statement above is regarding the very loud sound level coming out of the DFR when connected to ta PC, unlike an iPhone.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I have exactly the same issue (DFB, not DFR) in WIndows, but its considerably better in both Linux and Android, and I'm of the belief that an external amp makes a lot of sense if you plan to use either from a Windows laptop. I'm less inclined to see this as an AQ issue - simply a by-product of Windows engineers believing hey need to be able to amp reasonably large cans from a Realtek chip's modest output. I've never needed a lot of volume to drive a pair of IEMs on a Windows machine straight from the headphone out, but I'm usually at max on a phone and the DFB makes a lot of sense.


----------



## joeq70

I do think that one drawback of the DFR which prevents it from receiving greater appreciation is that there are so many variables which cause many inconsistent reports regarding things like volume level.

On my Android phone the DFR is blisteringly loud with my Nighthawks because I use UAPP with hardware volume set to max (and UAPP volume around 20 to 30 percent). It seems that many people who are trying out the DragonFly on their phones are disregarding the instructions provided with the unit. I cannot imagine someone having low volume issues with the DFR using anything but the most demanding cans.

Edit: Just noticed people above were complaining about it being too loud. This makes more sense haha.


----------



## joeq70

BTW for those of you using Windows with the DragonFly--I use JRiver Media Player and I enabled a setting in the options which prevents the volume from being set beyond 45 percent (can be any number). This makes me less nervous about blowing up my cans if the volume were to somehow spike up.


----------



## psikey

Using DF Red with my XPS13 notebook and SE846's, max I can listen to is 16% but still find enough control between 0-16% without too big a volume jumps. Also use JRiver so thanks for the volume limiting tip.
  
 With my Samsung S7 all great in UAPP but even with Spotify at max volume (due to volume limiting issue) still just loud enough using SE846's. I did contact AQ this week and advised still working on a fix with AndroidOS. Just can't go back to using an iPhone!


----------



## Pastapipo

Here is my comparison of the Zorloo Zuperdac vs the Dragonfly Black (and a few lines on the Dragonfly 1.0).
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/products/zorloo-zuperdac/reviews/16591


----------



## pkcpga

estreeter said:


> As I said, if your Mojo is to be updated it will need to be packed up and sent to MQA Inc - at least that's my understanding from the Darko article. My DFB plays the 2L MQA downloads without issue - obviously its not taking full advantage of the technology, but I still hear music when I load files into any player capable of decoding FLAC. I dont think MQA are aiming specifically at music 'above CD quality', particularly given the provenance issues around so-called 'hi-res audio' from companies like HDTracks. I'd far prefer to have a favorite CD remastered (or better, re-recorded ..) and played back on Sonos than any combination of DSD/DXD/whatever. And I'm not even going to touch on 'the myth of 24-bit audio' - I'm happy with any lossless 16-bit I can get my hands on, and I've been getting some really good results with lossy Opus encoding of same recently, but that's a topic for another thread.




It's whatever your happy with, with your headphones and DAC/amp there may have no sound difference or even distortion from devices trying to downsample. For my home stereo I can't use Sonus it sounds very muddy, bluesound sounds drastically better, even with just using tidal hf. But I can see if you have a basic system without very transparent speakers there might be little difference. Again it all depends what your using it with, it's the full system not just one component that makes a huge difference. If your happy with standard music resulion that's great for you save your money, but some people have equipment and ears that can tell the difference. As for chords response to their DACs "But since Chords are an FPGA DAC, and it has a spare expansion connector to the FPGA, we could choose to support any future developments - if I was convinced that it offered a credible improvement in sound quality. If a future development also offered an improvement in musicality then I would move "heaven and earth" to get it incorporated into my designs." So no announcement for the mojo for upgrade at this time but it's apparently not out of the question, just testing it first.


----------



## canali

still enjoying the red...nice and portable to walk around with (with my ipod touch)
  
 got the monks plus earbuds in...
 they're overhyped imo (but for the price i get it)
 the bass and mids sound pushed,  boomy even...i prefer
 the details and balance of the stock apple earbuds.


----------



## SpiderNhan

canali said:


> still enjoying the red...got the monks plus earbuds in...
> they're overhyped imo (but for the price i get it)
> ....disappointed...the bass and mids sound pushed,  boomy even...i prefer
> the details and balance of the stock apple earbuds.


 
 Have you let the Monks burn in for 50 hours? Also, 2 foams works best for me.


----------



## estreeter

spidernhan said:


> Have you let the Monks burn in for 50 hours? Also, 2 foams works best for me.


 
  
 Ruh-roh  
  
 Lets keep this one on-topic folks - I promise not to post any more about Roon or mpd unless its a specific issue with the DFB if you promise never to mention the Monks again.


----------



## canali

estreeter said:


> Ruh-roh
> 
> Lets keep this one on-topic folks - I promise not to post any more about Roon or mpd unless its a specific issue with the DFB if you promise never to mention the Monks again.


 
 you're right..
  
 but hey, i DID give the DF Red a bit of a plug 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ...such a great little device...makes me lazy not using my other devices as much (iFI micro and mojo, mad tube amp)...so easy to plug it and forget it, whether at my desk or out walking.


----------



## Pastapipo

canali said:


> you're right..
> 
> but hey, i DID give the DF Red a bit of a plug
> 
> ...


 
  
 I would even plug my toaster in my Mojo if I had one. That thing makes everything sound so much better. I can only imagine my face when I stood in the audio store for half an hour listening to the mojo like an idiot.


----------



## pinoyman

QUESTION:
 is there a firmware that needs to be updated in my RED that i can download from AUDIOQUEST site?


----------



## Pastapipo

pinoyman said:


> QUESTION:
> is there a firmware that needs to be updated in my RED that i can download from AUDIOQUEST site?


 
  
 No, the application is not even out yet.
  
 "DragonFly Desktop App (coming soon)"
 http://www.audioquest.com/dragonfly-series/


----------



## SpiderNhan

AQ said somewhere that the app is ready but there aren't any updates yet, so there's no point in releasing the app.


----------



## caenlenfromOCN

dt


----------



## JEspina456

Hey guys. Question that I hope wasn't addressed 500 posts back: Has anyone figured out how to use the DFR with an iPod classic (30 pin)? 

Thanks


----------



## MarkF786

jespina456 said:


> Hey guys. Question that I hope wasn't addressed 500 posts back: Has anyone figured out how to use the DFR with an iPod classic (30 pin)?
> 
> Thanks


 

 It wouldn't work for me with the 30 pin CCK.  It gave me a message like "accessory not supported".


----------



## JEspina456

markf786 said:


> It wouldn't work for me with the 30 pin CCK.  It gave me a message like "accessory not supported".


 
 Same here.  I searched and searched for m 30 pin CCK, found it and then got the depressing message.  Any ideas on how to use it with the old iPod?


----------



## pkcpga

jespina456 said:


> Same here.  I searched and searched for m 30 pin CCK, found it and then got the depressing message.  Any ideas on how to use it with the old iPod?



Old iPod's don't support anything being powered from them they can only charge not power accessories.


----------



## caenlenfromOCN

Does Dragonfly Black pump out more ampage than a Schiit Fulla?  Looking for a under $100 solution for a Fostex T50RP Mark 3


----------



## sebontheweb

Hi there !
  
 I red carrefully most of this topic but could not find a clear answer : I am experiencing some random crackle/pop when listening music with Audioquest DFR connected to my iPhone 6S through an official Apple CCK (Lightning to USB Camera Adapter). No problem if I play the same audio files (mp3, 320kbps, 44.1kHz) through analog output. Oversampling the audio files with Onkyo HF Player app does not totally get rid of this problem even it seems to me to have some improvements. No problem when playing the same audio files with foobar on my PC + Audioquest DFR.
  
 Some people are reporting the same problem but do not explain if there is a solution.
  
 Many thanks for your advices.


----------



## Slaphead

sebontheweb said:


> Hi there !
> 
> I red carrefully most of this topic but could not find a clear answer : I am experiencing some random crackle/pop when listening music with Audioquest DFR connected to my iPhone 6S through an official Apple CCK (Lightning to USB Camera Adapter). No problem if I play the same audio files (mp3, 320kbps, 44.1kHz) through analog output. Oversampling the audio files with Onkyo HF Player app does not totally get rid of this problem even it seems to me to have some improvements. No problem when playing the same audio files with foobar on my PC + Audioquest DFR.
> 
> ...




What iOS version are you using? I've heard that some people are experiencing issues with external DACs on the iOS 10 beta.


----------



## sebontheweb

IPhone 6S under iOS 9.3.3.


----------



## pkcpga

sebontheweb said:


> Hi there !
> 
> I red carrefully most of this topic but could not find a clear answer : I am experiencing some random crackle/pop when listening music with Audioquest DFR connected to my iPhone 6S through an official Apple CCK (Lightning to USB Camera Adapter). No problem if I play the same audio files (mp3, 320kbps, 44.1kHz) through analog output. Oversampling the audio files with Onkyo HF Player app does not totally get rid of this problem even it seems to me to have some improvements. No problem when playing the same audio files with foobar on my PC + Audioquest DFR.
> 
> ...




It's a faulty dfr, I had issues with my first one exchanged had no issues for a 7-8 days than issues again. Good luck, I switched to the mojo no issues for over a month with the mojo.


----------



## sebontheweb

Understood. I hope there will be a solution. I will email the audioquest support to have their point of view. Thank you.


----------



## pkcpga

sebontheweb said:


> Understood. I hope there will be a solution. I will email the audioquest support to have their point of view. Thank you.




If you can or bought it from a reputable dealer, I'd recommend returning or exchanging it through where you bought it. Audioquest sent me back a vague policy with instructions to send it to them at my cost and an unknown turn around time, but others have stated in the older df comments that it can take over a month to receive a repaired or replacement from them.


----------



## notphilip

sebontheweb said:


> Hi there !
> 
> I red carrefully most of this topic but could not find a clear answer : I am experiencing some random crackle/pop when listening music with Audioquest DFR connected to my iPhone 6S through an official Apple CCK (Lightning to USB Camera Adapter). No problem if I play the same audio files (mp3, 320kbps, 44.1kHz) through analog output. Oversampling the audio files with Onkyo HF Player app does not totally get rid of this problem even it seems to me to have some improvements. No problem when playing the same audio files with foobar on my PC + Audioquest DFR.
> 
> ...


 
 I think this is just an issue inherent with the iPhone 6S (and plus). I also encountered this until I switched to the iPhone SE. Swapping out the CCK did not make any difference.


----------



## sebontheweb

OK. Thank you. I have just check with the iPad Air and no problem at all. It seems you are right : the iPhone 6s is responsible of the problem.


----------



## ShabtabQ

Would this dragonfly black sound better than the fiio X1, I know both are two different things but in terms of audio quality which would be better, I'm gonna use it with my M50X.


----------



## estreeter

shabtabq said:


> Would this dragonfly black sound better than the fiio X1, I know both are two different things but in terms of audio quality which would be better, I'm gonna use it with my M50X.


 
  
  
 I assume you mean 'would the DFB sound better from a computer than my X1 sounds from the headphone jack' ? There is no way that I'm aware of that you can hook the DFB up to the X1. I'm happy with the results I get using my DFB with my 97AUD Lenovo tablet, but I still think it sounds better via mpd, f2k or banshee from my laptop : fuller, 'bigger' sound at any given volume level. Some here claim that paying for UaPP or HF Player unlocks better SQ -- I'm too cheap for any of that so they may well be right. My 60-day Roon trial expires today - thank you AQ - so I'll have to make do with my 'free as in beer' playback apps.


----------



## ShabtabQ

estreeter said:


> I assume you mean 'would the DFB sound better from a computer than my X1 sounds from the headphone jack' ? There is no way that I'm aware of that you can hook the DFB up to the X1. I'm happy with the results I get using my DFB with my 97AUD Lenovo tablet, but I still think it sounds better via mpd, f2k or banshee from my laptop : fuller, 'bigger' sound at any given volume level. Some here claim that paying for UaPP or HF Player unlocks better SQ -- I'm too cheap for any of that so they may well be right. My 60-day Roon trial expires today - thank you AQ - so I'll have to make do with my 'free as in beer' playback apps.




I would use the DFB with my phone, and yes X1 through its headphone out, so should I go with DFB, I'm getting confused in these now. I don't care about the eq and extra functionality just the one with better sound would be my chocice.


----------



## Tamirci

I just made a brief comparison between Black and Encore mDsD, its closest rival. The VS is is written in two languages, English is the 2nd part.
 http://www.kulaklik.web.tr/audioquest-dragonfly-black-vs-encore-mdsd/


----------



## estreeter

shabtabq said:


> I would use the DFB with my phone, and yes X1 through its headphone out, so should I go with DFB, I'm getting confused in these now. I don't care about the eq and extra functionality just the one with better sound would be my chocice.


 
  
 So the question is : 'Would the DFB hooked up to my phone via OTG sound better than my Fiio X1 from the headphone out ?'. The only expensive DAP I've owned was the Sony NWZ-ZX1 - I would rate the DFB as more powerful but the 'joys' of USB audio on Android devices completely erase that advantage IMO. *Unless you have an iPhone, I'd advise against spending money on one of the DFs*. Compare the experience of someone with an iPod Touch to someone with a similarly priced Android phone - the Touch owners *knows* his DAP will work with any DAC marketed for iDevices - his Android-lovin' buddy has no such assurance. I was lucky - a tablet recommended by another Aussie in this thread fit my budget - but many arent, regardless of the version of Android on their phones. Head-Fiers are an adaptable bunch, but the only place I'm willing to use my tablet with the DF is in a situation where I can lay the whole thing flat and keep the cable from moving around - using it on a bus just doesnt work for me. Each to their own, but I dont see the DFB as a good fit for those with Android devices as their sole music source.


----------



## caenlenfromOCN

Can I use my Dragonfly Red's DAC for my powered studio monitor speakers? So plug red into Windows PC, plug my speakers into the Red (windows volume at 100) and adjust volume on speakers manually for actual adjustments?
  
 If I do all that will I be getting the benefit of the DFR DAC for my Monoprice 5" Powered Studio Monitors speakers, or will the headphone amp mess stuff up?


----------



## ShabtabQ

estreeter said:


> So the question is : 'Would the DFB hooked up to my phone via OTG sound better than my Fiio X1 from the headphone out ?'. The only expensive DAP I've owned was the Sony NWZ-ZX1 - I would rate the DFB as more powerful but the 'joys' of USB audio on Android devices completely erase that advantage IMO. *Unless you have an iPhone, I'd advise against spending money on one of the DFs*. Compare the experience of someone with an iPod Touch to someone with a similarly priced Android phone - the Touch owners *knows* his DAP will work with any DAC marketed for iDevices - his Android-lovin' buddy has no such assurance. I was lucky - a tablet recommended by another Aussie in this thread fit my budget - but many arent, regardless of the version of Android on their phones. Head-Fiers are an adaptable bunch, but the only place I'm willing to use my tablet with the DF is in a situation where I can lay the whole thing flat and keep the cable from moving around - using it on a bus just doesnt work for me. Each to their own, but I dont see the DFB as a good fit for those with Android devices as their sole music source.




Android Marshmallow now supports USB Audio Routing by default, and I'm on android itself as long as the SQ is better than X1 I'll go with DFB Thank You.


----------



## waveSounds

shabtabq said:


> Android Marshmallow now supports USB Audio Routing by default, and I'm on android itself as long as the SQ is better than X1 I'll go with DFB Thank You.


 
  
 Wrong and misleading.


----------



## officerdibble

FWIW I sold my DFR as being an Android owner the reduced functionality became a deal breaker for me....


----------



## pkcpga

Even as an apple owner I returned my dfr after the first had a manufactures defect and the second having a crackling niose that wouldn't go away.


----------



## estreeter

pkcpga said:


> Even as an apple owner I returned my dfr after the first had a manufactures defect and the second having a crackling niose that wouldn't go away.


 
  
 OK, so your second DFR was also defective, unless your iDevice was being subjected to some very nasty RF noise. I have an intermittent problem with my tablet that just doesnt happen with my laptop - there's no way I can blame that on AQ, but if they have a QC issue with a batch of DF's, they need to be made aware of that.


----------



## estreeter

shabtabq said:


> Android Marshmallow now supports USB Audio Routing by default, and I'm on android itself as long as the SQ is better than X1 I'll go with DFB Thank You.


 
  
 Ten minutes in the main Android DAC thread on HF will quickly confirm that the problem isnt with the current version of Android, *its with the manufacturers*. If your phone works, great, but please dont assume that everyone else with that version of Android is so fortunate.


----------



## pkcpga

estreeter said:


> OK, so your second DFR was also defective, unless your iDevice was being subjected to some very nasty RF noise. I have an intermittent problem with my tablet that just doesnt happen with my laptop - there's no way I can blame that on AQ, but if they have a QC issue with a batch of DF's, they need to be made aware of that.



No issue connecting the chord mojo, so I guess two defective dfr.


----------



## Wilderness

I posted on page 89 that I had a bad experience with the Red with my car's audio system.
  
 I just tried it again, and I had no problem this time.  I don't know what I did wrong before to get such awful sound.  This time around, the audio sounded good.  No veil or distortion.
  
 So, I am happy to report that I am getting nice sound with the Red on my desktop 2.1 audio system, my car's audio system, and with headphones.
  
 For folks who just now got a Dragonfly Red, here is a song to hear how great it sounds on a desktop system: "Sensual" on the Lounge 2 album, by After in Paris, in 1411 from 7Digital.  Absolutely exquisite.  You'll realize what a genius you are for getting the Red!
  
 When I buy a new iOS device without a 3.5 mm headphone jack, I will probably purchase a second Dragonfly Red to use with my car's audio system.  I wish Apple would not get rid of the headphone jack, though.  Audio from my iPad Pro's headphone jack into my car's sound system sounds fine.


----------



## Wilderness

caenlenfromocn said:


> Can I use my Dragonfly Red's DAC for my powered studio monitor speakers? So plug red into Windows PC, plug my speakers into the Red (windows volume at 100) and adjust volume on speakers manually for actual adjustments?
> 
> If I do all that will I be getting the benefit of the DFR DAC for my Monoprice 5" Powered Studio Monitors speakers, or will the headphone amp mess stuff up?


 

 Yes, you can use the Dragonfly Red with desktop speakers.  I have that set up now, and it sounds very nice.  I have PSB powered speakers and a powered subwoofer.
  
 Computer>USB>Dragonfly>3.5 mm cable>speakers. 
  
 You will need to enable a couple of settings on your computer, but these are easy to do.  See Audioquest's website for easy to follow instructions. 
  
 The amplification will come solely from your self powered speakers.  There will not be a conflict with amplification.  Enjoy.


----------



## ShabtabQ

wavesounds said:


> Wrong and misleading.




Then please tell me what to do?


----------



## waveSounds

wilderness said:


> For folks who just now got a Dragonfly Red, here is a song to hear how great it sounds on a desktop system: "Sensual" on the Lounge 2 album, by After in Paris, in 1411 from 7Digital.  Absolutely exquisite.  You'll realize what a genius you are for getting the Red!


 
  
 Thanks for the album tip. This ambient/lounge music is exactly the sort of stuff I listen to at work! I don't have the DFR, but it sounds superb on my Mojo


----------



## cleg

My humble 5 cents

[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5pCvmTZN3s[/VIDEO]


----------



## Ray1684

After reading through all 90+ pages in here, ended up picking up the DFR with Dragontail USB OTG for Android. 
  
 Currently listening to it on my Samsung S7E (Aus). Initial impressions is pretty good, I can understand why others have been describing it as 'bright'; probably makes things worst as I'm using the Linum Music cables which were already making my IEMs sound brighter than the stock cables. 
  
 Had a quick A/B test against my AK100ii and for some of the tracks I tested it on, I can definitely say there is improved clarity and slightly more open sound stage coming from the DFR. Will need more time to burn in and listen to the DFR. 
  
 After two weeks; I will probably decide on whether I keep the DFR, or sell it and move on to the Mojo.


----------



## waveSounds

ray1684 said:


> After two weeks; I will sell it and move on to the Mojo.


 
  
 Fixed that for you.


----------



## pkcpga

ray1684 said:


> After reading through all 90+ pages in here, ended up picking up the DFR with Dragontail USB OTG for Android.
> 
> Currently listening to it on my Samsung S7E (Aus). Initial impressions is pretty good, I can understand why others have been describing it as 'bright'; probably makes things worst as I'm using the Linum Music cables which were already making my IEMs sound brighter than the stock cables.
> 
> ...




Move onto the mojo you'll never look back. Chord DACs have amazing separation and detail without any harsh highs. You can play music at any volume low or high and have great separation with no distortion, even sound and no clicking sounds. I couldn't be happier with it, even wound up switching my home stereo DAC to the Dave shortly after over my naim DAC v1. I now understand why people are obsessed with chord DACs verse off the shelf DACs found in most portable rigs. Happy listening.


----------



## saintintn

From an equipment standpoint, I have an iPhone 6 and a Samsung Galaxy Tab S2 tablet with the DFR.  No issues with either device and the DFR.  No crackling, popping, etc...  Works perfectly with either device.  I'm also using the AQ USB OTG cable which fits snugly into the Samsung tablet.  Highly recommend this vs the cheap OTG cables that lurk on Amazon and eBay.  Software I'm using is Onkyo HF and Neutron on the Samsung.  Using everything on the iPhone 6: CanOpener, Onkyo HF, Relisten, Apple Music.  Really nice as it makes 256 AAC sound amazing.  Headphones are Shure SE846 (most listening) and 535's (exercising).


----------



## pkcpga

saintintn said:


> From an equipment standpoint, I have an iPhone 6 and a Samsung Galaxy Tab S2 tablet with the DFR.  No issues with either device and the DFR.  No crackling, popping, etc...  Works perfectly with either device.  I'm also using the AQ USB OTG cable which fits snugly into the Samsung tablet.  Highly recommend this vs the cheap OTG cables that lurk on Amazon and eBay.  Software I'm using is Onkyo HF and Neutron on the Samsung.  Using everything on the iPhone 6: CanOpener, Onkyo HF, Relisten, Apple Music.  Really nice as it makes 256 AAC sound amazing.  Headphones are Shure SE846 (most listening) and 535's (exercising).



For me the crackling sound came from trying to play high res music through onkyo player to the dfr or playing high res through tidal hifi(which is only cd lossless). I had no issues with Apple Music or MP3 or 44k formats issues happened with anything above that on both dfr with my iPhone 6plus or iPad or MacBookpro, but strangely only on music over 44k. No issues with same equipment and mojo or naim DAC v1 or Dave DAC.


----------



## Ray1684

saintintn said:


> From an equipment standpoint, I have an iPhone 6 and a Samsung Galaxy Tab S2 tablet with the DFR.  No issues with either device and the DFR.  No crackling, popping, etc...  Works perfectly with either device.  I'm also using the AQ USB OTG cable which fits snugly into the Samsung tablet.  Highly recommend this vs the cheap OTG cables that lurk on Amazon and eBay.  Software I'm using is Onkyo HF and Neutron on the Samsung.  Using everything on the iPhone 6: CanOpener, Onkyo HF, Relisten, Apple Music.  Really nice as it makes 256 AAC sound amazing.  Headphones are Shure SE846 (most listening) and 535's (exercising).


 
  
 No crackling either on my initial tests; also forgot to mention that I'm only using UAPP on my S7, yet to test it on my Galaxy Tab S2 but I'm expecting the results to be the same. Listening to a mix of CD lossless and some 24bit 192khz files. 
  
 Only listened to the SE846 so far, will pop in the Westone W40 over to weekend just for comparison's sake. 
  
  


wavesounds said:


> Fixed that for you.


 
 lol, can I ask what you're pairing the Mojo with? Still a bit confused as to what cables I will need to pair the Mojo to my Samsung S7 and AK100ii.


----------



## brent75

ray1684 said:


> After two weeks; I will probably decide on whether I keep the DFR, or sell it and move on to the Mojo.


 
  
 Depends on what your criteria is -- and don't forget to take into account the total picture (not just perceived sound differences) as you make your decision...unless your ONLY criteria is sound.
  
 Evidenced by the two responses after your post, there are obviously people who worship at the altar of Mojo. But there are also several of us in this thread who like/enjoy/respect Mojo, but prefer DFR instead for their uses (again, based on total picture).
  
_Mojo good_: great sound people swear by
_Mojo bad_: bulky/awkward (compared to DFR)...expensive...has to always be charged/ready before use
  
 Good luck with your decision!


----------



## pkcpga

ray1684 said:


> No crackling either on my initial tests; also forgot to mention that I'm only using UAPP on my S7, yet to test it on my Galaxy Tab S2 but I'm expecting the results to be the same. Listening to a mix of CD lossless and some 24bit 192khz files.
> 
> Only listened to the SE846 so far, will pop in the Westone W40 over to weekend just for comparison's sake.
> 
> ...




The mojo comes with a USB cable end, so any female USB to male usb micro works, the mojo has its own power and volume or gain control so it's pretty plug and play. It's only downside is you have to charge it after 10 hours of use. It can be used while charging but I recommend standing it up to do that or the mojo becomes very warm when charging it while playing it, also requires a second cord. The small short comings of needing to charge it over the better sound quality and easy plug and play to any format music definitely out weighs remembering to charge it for me.

If a friend or spouse wants to listen also the mojo can play a second headphone at the same time.


----------



## erics75

caenlenfromocn said:


> Does Dragonfly Black pump out more ampage than a Schiit Fulla?  Looking for a under $100 solution for a Fostex T50RP Mark 3


 

 no, the fulla is considerably more powerful than the df black. I believe the black puts out about 45mw. the red about 135mw. the fulla puts out 200mw, all at 32ohm. the fostex sounds best with some more power behind them, I'd suggest something like a magni 2, which puts out about 1.2watts (1200mw) at 32ohm. of course you don't have a dac, going that route, but you can save up for a modi or other dac down the line. in my experience, planars like power, feed them well to get them sounding their best.


----------



## MarkF786

I bought the DFB, figuring I'd also buy a Mojo (which is being delivered this week). The Black is cheap enough to keep both, and I'll probably use the Black mostly for portability with my iPhone.

Though the Red sounds nice, it's hard to justify the extra money for minor improvements if you plan to also get a Mojo.


----------



## VRacer-111

erics75 said:


> no, the fulla is considerably more powerful than the df black. I believe the black puts out about 45mw. the red about 135mw. the fulla puts out 200mw, all at 32ohm. the fostex sounds best with some more power behind them, I'd suggest something like a magni 2, which puts out about 1.2watts (1200mw) at 32ohm. of course you don't have a dac, going that route, but you can save up for a modi or other dac down the line. in my experience, planars like power, feed them well to get them sounding their best.




Not sure on the DFB, but the DFR drives T50RP & T40RP Mark III's INCREDIBLY well... just as well as my Meier Audio Corda JAZZ-ff desktop headphone amp. Literally less than 1/4 volume level gain on UAPP puts it at my preferred listening level, and music sounds as good as on any other sources I've heard the T50RP and T40RP on. Anything above 1/2 gain level would probably implode your eardrums and blow your head off... I imagine the DFB would drive them just fine, but not as good as the DFR...


----------



## Wilderness

wilderness said:


> For folks who just now got a Dragonfly Red, here is a song to hear how great it sounds on a desktop system: "Sensual" on the Lounge 2 album, by After in Paris, in 1411 from 7Digital.  Absolutely exquisite.  You'll realize what a genius you are for getting the Red!


 
  
 Thanks for the album tip. This ambient/lounge music is exactly the sort of stuff I listen to at work! I don't have the DFR, but it sounds superb on my Mojo 
 ________________________________________

  
 Here are the After in Paris albums I recommend:
  
 Lounge
 Emotional
 Time Cycle
 Lounge 2
 Pop Lounge
 Lounge Paradise
  
 The band also has a few other albums from which I snagged a few songs ("Story," "Bossa," etc.) without buying the whole album.
  
 I found that there are some related bands: Claire Michael Quartet, and Patrick Chartol (Istanbul and Snow on Istanbul albums are the best).


----------



## Wilderness

pkcpga said:


> The mojo comes with a USB cable end, so any female USB to male usb micro works, the mojo has its own power and volume or gain control so it's pretty plug and play. It's only downside is you have to charge it after 10 hours of use. It can be used while charging but I recommend standing it up to do that or the mojo becomes very warm when charging it while playing it, also requires a second cord. The small short comings of needing to charge it over the better sound quality and easy plug and play to any format music definitely out weighs remembering to charge it for me.
> 
> If a friend or spouse wants to listen also the mojo can play a second headphone at the same time.


 

 Did I read correctly on Chord's website that with a desktop computer and speakers audio system, the Mojo cannot be used when it needs to be charged?  If that is true, I would not want the Mojo for my desktop system.  I want to listen to music on my desktop system without having to wait.  And I have enough devices (iPhone, iPad, Sony Walkman) to charge for on-the-go use.
  
 It is nice to know that there is something available like the Mojo to get better sound.  I did look at Chord's website and I will definitely keep its products on my radar.


----------



## pkcpga

wilderness said:


> Did I read correctly on Chord's website that with a desktop computer and speakers audio system, the Mojo cannot be used when it needs to be charged?  If that is true, I would not want the Mojo for my desktop system.  I want to listen to music on my desktop system without having to wait.  And I have enough devices (iPhone, iPad, Sony Walkman) to charge for on-the-go use.
> 
> It is nice to know that there is something available like the Mojo to get better sound.  I did look at Chord's website and I will definitely keep its products on my radar.




The same device can not be used to play and charge the mojo. The mojo can be charged by plugging it into the wall and still play from the computer to whatever, just can't charge on the same cord as it plays.

It has a separate micro USB plug spot for charging than for playing so two cords are required to play and charge at the same time.


----------



## MrBenvolent

pkcpga said:


> The same device can not be used to play and charge the mojo. The mojo can be charged by plugging it into the wall and still play from the computer to whatever, just can't charge on the same cord as it plays.
> 
> It has a separate micro USB plug spot for charging than for playing so two cords are required to play and charge at the same time.


 

 Can you not just run two USBs from your laptop/desktop? A bit messy but saves running something to the wall...


----------



## pkcpga

mrbenvolent said:


> Can you not just run two USBs from your laptop/desktop? A bit messy but saves running something to the wall...




Never tried since it was easier to run a plug from the surge protector than multiple USB to computers.


----------



## Mightygrey

brent75 said:


> Yeah, that's why I pulled the trigger on Red (and glad I did as I love it). I don't use am amp with IEMs, because the only time I use my Westone W30s is at the gym or when mowing...so sound quality is not of utmost importance, and I probably wouldn't even notice the difference anyway. Instead, I use it on couch w/ laptop + full size cans (right now Hifiman HE400S). They're already pretty efficient, BUT I wanted something that would work in case I decide to get a thirstier can down the road.
> 
> My other headphone usage is "out and about" which is basically when I walk the dogs at night. I ordered Sine + Cipher cable, and am going to compare/contrast Cipher vs Red to see what my thoughts are on convenience/portability/etc.
> 
> Have you found the color-change of your dragon to be accurate? I've found it usually is when I'm playing via Roon, but inaccurate when playing via iTunes. Then it's always magenta, which is a mistake because I know the sample rate is not as high as it indicates. I can't tell if that's the fault of Dragonfly or the fault of iTunes.


 
 The sample rate is always fixed on a Mac/windows depending on your settings (Audio MIDI setup in Mac) - not variable dependent on your file.


----------



## Pastapipo

mightygrey said:


> The sample rate is always fixed on a Mac/windows depending on your settings (Audio MIDI setup in Mac) - not variable dependent on your file.




True, that's why you need a program like Foobar2000 which bypasses the windows settings.


----------



## SearchOfSub

Is the DFR able to upsample incoming sample rate to higher? ie. 44.1 to 192 kHz etc..


----------



## pkcpga

searchofsub said:


> Is the DFR able to upsample incoming sample rate to higher? ie. 44.1 to 192 kHz etc..




No they play the rate you put into them and only up to 96.


----------



## west0ne

searchofsub said:


> Is the DFR able to upsample incoming sample rate to higher? ie. 44.1 to 192 kHz etc..


 
 DFR won't but the software you are using may upsample/downsample to the maximum 24/96 that the DFR is capable of.


----------



## SearchOfSub

Anyone know if Mojo upsamples? or is this the same case with Mojo..


----------



## brent75

Not to be a hole in the butt - but can we curb the Mojo talk on this thread? There's already a dedicated thread to talk its merits/connections/cables/sound/etc to your heart's content.
  
 I'm sure people here don't mind occasional comparisons between Mojo and DFR/DFB...but dedicating posts to ONLY talking about Mojo is steering things off topic and burying the info people are looking for.
  
 Thanks.


----------



## pkcpga

searchofsub said:


> Anyone know if Mojo upsamples? or is this the same case with Mojo..




The mojo plays what you put into it as well, but up to 32/368 or something. So above anything you can find today. It uses a multi DAC technology so it sounds more separated and detailed than a standard DAC.


----------



## SearchOfSub

pkcpga said:


> The mojo plays what you put into it as well, but up to 32/368 or something. So above anything you can find today. It uses a multi DAC technology so it sounds more separated and detailed than a standard DAC.




ah, so it does NOT upsample. So then the Mojo is sold, and I am getting myself a DFR. I am currently trying to downsize on headphone gear. (not necessarily sound but cost). This was deciding factor for me. TY.


----------



## SearchOfSub

brent75 said:


> Not to be a hole in the butt - but can we curb the Mojo talk on this thread? There's already a dedicated thread to talk its merits/connections/cables/sound/etc to your heart's content.
> 
> I'm sure people here don't mind occasional comparisons between Mojo and DFR/DFB...but dedicating posts to ONLY talking about Mojo is steering things off topic and burying the info people are looking for.
> 
> Thanks.





No more. Happy listening.


----------



## Slaphead

searchofsub said:


> ah, so it does NOT upsample. So then the Mojo is sold, and I am getting myself a DFR. I am currently trying to downsize on headphone gear. (not necessarily sound but cost). This was deciding factor for me. TY.




Frankly I think you'd be making a mistake there. I own both the DFR and the Mojo, and while the DFR is fantastic for it's price point, the Mojo is something else entirely.

Also don't get worked up about upsampling as a listener to the end product. Yes, we upsample, both in bit depth and sample frequency, in a production environment for various reasons, but these reasons are not applicable to the end user.

If what you have is a 16/44.1 file then it's best left as a 16/44.1.

Seriously, upsampling at the user end is a total waste of time as at best you cannot create more information than what there is already, and at worse you can downgrade the sound quality due to iffy upsampling algorithms.


----------



## SearchOfSub

I actually just sold the Mojo, and the turned around and refunded the money back to him hours later with an apology note. It just sounds too damn good to let go. Oh well, there is always next time DFR.


----------



## estreeter

searchofsub said:


> I actually just sold the Mojo, and the turned around and refunded the money back to him hours later with an apology note. It just sounds too damn good to let go. Oh well, there is always next time DFR.


 
  
 OK - five or so posts after being respectfully asked to take the Mojo discussion elsewhere, yours is _post 5/5 about the Mojo_, I completely get comparisons with other dongle DACs, particularly those that compete in the same price ballpark, but the Mojo is a completely different creation from the FPGA design to its input/output array. As a former Hugo owner, I'm a massive fan of Rob Watts' work and his willingness to engage with this community, but there's a place for discussion of the Mojo and it's not in this thread.
  
 If I can steer this discussion back on thread, my next project is to get MPD running on a headless RasbPi with the DFB doing 'renderer' duties 24/7 into an external amp. I have no idea how noisy the Pi's USB ports are - at the low asking price we're clearly dealing with the cheapest parts they could find - but using a DAC that requires no other power source (and was specifically designed to run from low power devices) makes sense to my way of thinking. The ability to completely hide everything before the amp tickles my innner geek almost as much as the prospect of having an embedded, fanless server dedicated to music playback for what amounts to spare change for many audiophiles. More to follow.


----------



## Mightygrey

spidernhan said:


> I stand corrected. I only had a few minutes to play with BubbleUPnP before I had to work yesterday. lombardox is right. You get full UAPP functionality while using BubbleUPnP. I just hadn't come to grips to properly using the new software yet.
> 
> The proper steps are:
> 
> ...


 
 I've been searching high and low for a solution to get Google Play to work through my DFB - working like a charm having followed these steps, many thanks mate!


----------



## SpiderNhan

mightygrey said:


> I've been searching high and low for a solution to get Google Play to work through my DFB - working like a charm having followed these steps, many thanks mate!


----------



## joeq70

Hey I wanted to pop in here and say that the DFR sounds surprisingly good as a DAC only being run as a line out into my amp. I'm running into the amp section of my Aune T1 because I can't live without the physical volume knob when I'm at my desk. I'll be hooking it up to an iFi iCan Micro soon though.


----------



## west0ne

estreeter said:


> ........
> 
> If I can steer this discussion back on thread, my next project is to get MPD running on a headless RasbPi with the DFB doing 'renderer' duties 24/7 into an external amp. I have no idea how noisy the Pi's USB ports are - at the low asking price we're clearly dealing with the cheapest parts they could find - but using a DAC that requires no other power source (and was specifically designed to run from low power devices) makes sense to my way of thinking. The ability to completely hide everything before the amp tickles my innner geek almost as much as the prospect of having an embedded, fanless server dedicated to music playback for what amounts to spare change for many audiophiles. More to follow.




The Pi works well with the DFB and I've had no noticeable issues running it straight from the Pi's USB port. Hook it up to a portable battery pack and you have a mobile player, add a bluetooth remote and you can skip tracks, change volume, pause and play without needing to use another device to control MPD (obviously would need a front end on the Pi). You could create a relatively cheap DAP using the Pi/DF.


----------



## estreeter

west0ne said:


> The Pi works well with the DFB and I've had no noticeable issues running it straight from the Pi's USB port. Hook it up to a portable battery pack and you have a mobile player, add a bluetooth remote and you can skip tracks, change volume, pause and play without needing to use another device to control MPD (obviously would need a front end on the Pi). You could create a relatively cheap DAP using the Pi/DF.


 
  
 Thanks for that - undeniably a relatively cheap 'DAP' but even my Lenovo tablet has a better form factor !


----------



## west0ne

estreeter said:


> Thanks for that - undeniably a relatively cheap 'DAP' but even my Lenovo tablet has a better form factor !


 
 You're not wrong. I actually use a cheap Windows tablet with my DFB sometimes. Has the benefits of streaming, Foobar, Equalizer APO, built in battery and screen for interface interaction. The only thing is, getting the Pi up and running is more satisfying because you are more involved in the process. The Pi is also undeniably cheap which is the important bit.


----------



## sebontheweb

sebontheweb said:


> OK. Thank you. I have just check with the iPad Air and no problem at all. It seems you are right : the iPhone 6s is responsible of the problem.


 
 OK, problem solved by using airplane mode on the iPhone 6s. No more interferences, no more crackling noises.


----------



## SearchOfSub

Audioquest Dragonfly RED 5/5 stars at Whathifi.com. Nice!


----------



## SearchOfSub

estreeter said:


> OK - five or so posts after being respectfully asked to take the Mojo discussion elsewhere, yours is _post 5/5 about the Mojo_, I completely get comparisons with other dongle DACs, particularly those that compete in the same price ballpark, but the Mojo is a completely different creation from the FPGA design to its input/output array. As a former Hugo owner, I'm a massive fan of Rob Watts' work and his willingness to engage with this community, but there's a place for discussion of the Mojo and it's not in this thread.
> 
> If I can steer this discussion back on thread, my next project is to get MPD running on a headless RasbPi with the DFB doing 'renderer' duties 24/7 into an external amp. I have no idea how noisy the Pi's USB ports are - at the low asking price we're clearly dealing with the cheapest parts they could find - but using a DAC that requires no other power source (and was specifically designed to run from low power devices) makes sense to my way of thinking. The ability to completely hide everything before the amp tickles my innner geek almost as much as the prospect of having an embedded, fanless server dedicated to music playback for what amounts to spare change for many audiophiles. More to follow.




Actually, 2/5 posts I talked about Dragonfly Red AND Mojo together. TY.


----------



## Duncan

Bouncing back to the DFR for the first time in a while, this pairs very nicely with the Laylas, although background hiss is prevalent


----------



## estreeter

west0ne said:


> You're not wrong. I actually use a cheap Windows tablet with my DFB sometimes. Has the benefits of streaming, Foobar, Equalizer APO, built in battery and screen for interface interaction. The only thing is, getting the Pi up and running is more satisfying because you are more involved in the process. The Pi is also undeniably cheap which is the important bit.


 
  
 Cheap in the US but that doesnt hold up so well here in Oz. With $8 shipping, my Pi3+case is costing me 88AUD (a little under 70USD), but I consider myself lucky in that I already have a PSU and an SD card : the same vendor wants 127AUD for the 'starter kit' that doesnt even include a case. I can live with the fact that this is a relatively small volume proposition for importers, and they need to make a living, but my Lenovo tablet cost me 97AUD, came with a 1.3gHz quad core processor, a GB of RAM and will take a 32GB SD card. Between that and the tiny price AQ have slapped on the DFB, we live in a golden age.


----------



## SearchOfSub

Just picked DFR up - should be here early next week. Will leave impression. Happy listening!


----------



## estreeter

The aforementioned WHF review:
  
 http://www.whathifi.com/audioquest/dragonfly-red/review
  
 Darko's review digs a lot deeper IMO, but for an editorial team notorious for writing 3 paragraph 'reviews' this is one of their better efforts. Their web design team should be shot for giving even less real estate to the content (vs ads and nav) than ever, but that's little different to the print edition of the mag.


----------



## Duncan

Does anyone have SE846 and DFR? Listening to the DFR with Layla, there is a noticeable noise floor, so wondering how bad that is with the Shures?


----------



## pkcpga

duncan said:


> Does anyone have SE846 and DFR? Listening to the DFR with Layla, there is a noticeable noise floor, so wondering how bad that is with the Shures?




I had a low noise floor with the savant's and slightly more noticeable with the 535's, but it was present with both. With the savant's it's livable, not great with the shures, but gave the dfr up for clicking noise that developed.


----------



## SearchOfSub

Looks like I'll be pairing DFR with Ether C Flow. Hope it works out.


----------



## psikey

duncan said:


> Bouncing back to the DFR for the first time in a while, this pairs very nicely with the Laylas, although background hiss is prevalent


 
  
 Surprised, I normally can detect hiss with my SE846's on a number of DAC/AMP's but not with my DFRed (or Mojo) dead silent like it is with iPhones/S7 etc.
  
 I'm tending to use the DF Red all the time now as its so small/convenient to use without having to think about charging it. Just keep it in my Shure SE846 case using with phone and PC. 
  
 PC use not ideal with the DF Red/SE846's purely as max I can listen to with my XPS13 is level 10 on volume scale so not many steps of control between 0-10. Likely not an issue with higher impedance ear/headphones. If I forget to lower my volume before using I'm likely to kill my ears !! (unless someone knows a setting in Windows 10 I'm not aware of). At least I can set a Max volume in JRiver MC but no use for Spotify/Tidal etc.


----------



## brent75

Dead silent with my Westone W30s.


----------



## Slaphead

The DFR is a bit of battery sucker on iOS, isn't it.

Of course I expected to use more charge than just the HP out on my iPod touch 5th Gen, but previously with just using the internal HP port I could get 2 weeks at approx 1 hour a day before the battery got to around 30%. The same usage with the DFR brings the battery level to around 30% after just 6 days.

For me this isn't a problem as it just means I need to charge the iPod every week as opposed to every two weeks, but if your phone usage case means that your already only just getting through the day on a single charge, then the DFR is going make life a bit more difficult for you, especially if you tend to listen to a lot of music.


----------



## SearchOfSub

slaphead said:


> The DFR is a bit of battery sucker on iOS, isn't it.
> 
> Of course I expected to use more charge than just the HP out on my iPod touch 5th Gen, but previously with just using the internal HP port I could get 2 weeks at approx 1 hour a day before the battery got to around 30%. The same usage with the DFR brings the battery level to around 30% after just 6 days.
> 
> For me this isn't a problem as it just means I need to charge the iPod every week as opposed to every two weeks, but if your phone usage case means that your already only just getting through the day on a single charge, then the DFR is going make life a bit more difficult for you, especially if you tend to listen to a lot of music.





How much power does it take? any info on this? I don't want DFR hogging all the power on my pc.


----------



## Slaphead

searchofsub said:


> How much power does it take? any info on this? I don't want DFR hogging all the power on my pc.




Don't worry about it - on a PC the power draw will be negligible compared with all of the other power sucking things going on. It's really only an issue for mobile devices with their limited battery capacity.


----------



## Duncan

I'm going to be cheeky here, but - will see how it goes...

Inside the Dragonfly red packaging is a sixty day trial for Roon - if anyone knows that they won't be using that trial, can I be randomly cheeky, and ask if you don't mind, to PM me the trial code?

...Mine ran out, and I cannot, after spending more than I should have at Canjam, afford to pay for the licensed version until next month... it's killing me 

Thanks in advance for any offer of kindness


----------



## brent75

duncan said:


> I'm going to be cheeky here, but - will see how it goes...
> 
> Inside the Dragonfly red packaging is a sixty day trial for Roon - if anyone knows that they won't be using that trial, can I be randomly cheeky, and ask if you don't mind, to PM me the trial code?
> 
> ...


 
  
 As a heads up - it won't work with your existing installation and email. You'll have to uninstall and reinstall, and sign up for the trial with a burner email account.
  
 Or so I've heard...


----------



## Duncan

A member has kindly donated me their code...

Thank you


----------



## SearchOfSub

duncan said:


> I'm going to be cheeky here, but - will see how it goes...
> 
> Inside the Dragonfly red packaging is a sixty day trial for Roon - if anyone knows that they won't be using that trial, can I be randomly cheeky, and ask if you don't mind, to PM me the trial code?
> 
> ...





I bought Roon 2 weeks ago so you can have mine when my DFR arrive Monday. Happy listening!


----------



## LunaC

searchofsub said:


> Looks like I'll be pairing DFR with Ether C Flow. Hope it works out.


 

 The DFR and EtherC is fine but I still find even the addition of a Fiio MB IEM edition makes it even better. Without the amp, you are likely to run out of power on some material.


----------



## estreeter

brent75 said:


> As a heads up - it won't work with your existing installation and email. You'll have to uninstall and reinstall, and sign up for the trial with a burner email account.
> 
> Or so I've heard...


 
  
 Not a topic we should be discussing on an open forum dedicated to the enjoyment of music, but I dont know if you're serious or what here. I enjoyed my Roon trial but at no stage was I prompted for anything other than the code - the idea that they will look for proof of purchase or any other Big Brother tactic is laughable. If I had the money, I would pay for Roon, based on SQ over some of the metadata that I wasnt impressed with - I cant be any more blunt than that.


----------



## brent75

estreeter said:


> Not a topic we should be discussing on an open forum dedicated to the enjoyment of music, but I dont know if you're serious or what here. I enjoyed my Roon trial but at no stage was I prompted for anything other than the code - the idea that they will look for proof of purchase or any other Big Brother tactic is laughable. If I had the money, I would pay for Roon, based on SQ over some of the metadata that I wasnt impressed with - I cant be any more blunt than that.


 
 Settle down, my friend - I'm not sure you're totally tracking what I was saying.
  
 Duncan said he had the initial 60-day free trial...but it ran out...and he wanted another one.
  
 I had the same situation, as I've bought 2 DFRs (and thus had 2 60-day trials). I signed up for the initial trial and then let it expire, at which point Roon wanted me to pay but I wasn't ready to, so I let my "access" run out. Fast forward several weeks later when I bought my 2nd DFR. I thought I could simply go to my existing account and "re-up" 60 more days with the new code. No dice -- I got prompts saying my trial days were over and needed to pay. Hence, me realizing if I just uninstalled and reinstalled, and used a different email, I'd seem like a new customer and get another trial.
  
 That is all.


----------



## Duncan

Didn't mean to cause any controversy, was only looking for a bit of charity from a fellow member, which I received, and for which I am grateful. 

I do not believe it is defrauding anyone if I still intend to purchase, and the original owner of the voucher had no intention to use it themselves... 

Anyhow, back to the dragonfly discussion


----------



## SearchOfSub

Is there a ASIO driver for DFR? Like how Mojo has their ASIO driver for download on their website?


----------



## joeq70

searchofsub said:


> Is there a ASIO driver for DFR? Like how Mojo has their ASIO driver for download on their website?


 
 I don't know, but I do know that WASAPI works with it.


----------



## jegnyc

sebontheweb said:


> Hi there !
> 
> I red carrefully most of this topic but could not find a clear answer : I am experiencing some random crackle/pop when listening music with Audioquest DFR connected to my iPhone 6S through an official Apple CCK (Lightning to USB Camera Adapter). No problem if I play the same audio files (mp3, 320kbps, 44.1kHz) through analog output. Oversampling the audio files with Onkyo HF Player app does not totally get rid of this problem even it seems to me to have some improvements. No problem when playing the same audio files with foobar on my PC + Audioquest DFR.
> 
> ...


 
 Just resolved the same problem this weekend with guidance from AudioQuest.  I am new here so it may have already been posted.  They advise me that it's a known problem that occurs on a small number of iPhones and that they have filed a bug report with Apple.  I can confirm that it doesn't occur on my iPhone 5S or two iPads I tested.
  
 Two options for a fix - first try doing a hard reset on the iPhone.  Hold the Home key down while shutting the phone off.  That didn't work for me.  The other, more expensive, option is to pick up Apple's new USB3 Camera Adapter and use it instead of the CCK.  This did resolve the issue.  A side benefit is that you can charge your phone while listening.  Additionally, AudioQuest claims the sound is improved.  Downside (in addition to expense) is the new Adaptor is somewhat larger and the cable is thicker (and stiffer), so it's a bit more awkward to carry and use.


----------



## pkcpga

searchofsub said:


> Is there a ASIO driver for DFR? Like how Mojo has their ASIO driver for download on their website?



No


----------



## estreeter

I thought ASIO4ALL worked with most USB DACs ? Didnt realise that you needed a specific ASIO driver for your DAC - FPGA DACs are possibly exceptions, but the DFB has worked with every software combination I've thrown at it.
  
 http://www.asio4all.com/
  
 I havent messed with ASIO since Windows Vista - think I read somewhere that M$ finally got their act together by Win8 and it was no longer needed. Anyone ?


----------



## caenlenfromOCN

Does anyone know if Dragonfly Black will make my powered studio monitor speakers sound better than just a stock PC motherboard onbaord realtek dac? Like noticeably different/better?


----------



## SearchOfSub

caenlenfromocn said:


> Does anyone know if Dragonfly Black will make my powered studio monitor speakers sound better than just a stock PC motherboard onbaord realtek dac? Like noticeably different/better?





What dac is it? All the soundblaster series soundcards have too much ringing and reverbs to sound for me. Even the highest priced ones has this ringing sound to them. kinda like the old klipsch desktop speakers.
I would get the Red.


----------



## jsylva

torq said:


> I picked up the Red version this weekend and so far am very impressed; it's very smooth, carries extremely good detail, seems nicely balanced from a frequency range perspective with no particular emphasis or de-emphasis anywhere, is doing an impressive job with my various IEMs (ER-6 excepted) and is generally both enjoyable and engaging to listen to.


 
 I use Etymotic's ER4-PT, so I am interested in knowing more about your experience with the ER-6. Any comment would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## Torq

jsylva said:


> I use Etymotic's ER4-PT, so I am interested in knowing more about your experience with the ER-6. Any comment would be greatly appreciated.


 
  
 With the Red and ER-6 I found things to be _horribly _bright, bordering on shrill, almost completely lacking in bass and just generally unpleasant.
  
 That's a stark contrast with my ER-4S and the Red, which sounds very balanced and generally excellent.


----------



## Stelian99

Hi guys,

I have a pair of B&W P7 (stunning headphones) and Fiio E12 Montblanc. I want to buy a portable dac Audioquest Dragonfly Red. Do you think that it's necesarily to put like this: Dragonfly - E12 - P7 or should I power P7 directly through Dragonfly?

Thanks in advance 


Trimis de pe iPhone folosind Tapatalk...


----------



## caenlenfromOCN

searchofsub said:


> What dac is it? All the soundblaster series soundcards have too much ringing and reverbs to sound for me. Even the highest priced ones has this ringing sound to them. kinda like the old klipsch desktop speakers.
> I would get the Red.


 
  
 I have already tried both Red and Black for headphones, and prefer the Black when it comes to most headphones I tried them with. That being said. I only was curious if it was worth my hassle for the power speakers, I assumed if I liked the sound signature it gives on headphones maybe it would give some of that on powered speakers too, I am not sure.


----------



## drjigarn

I use the P7 with Dragonfly Red, you would not need E12 in between. Audioquest gives out way more power than P7s need really.


stelian99 said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I have a pair of B&W P7 (stunning headphones) and Fiio E12 Montblanc. I want to buy a portable dac Audioquest Dragonfly Red. Do you think that it's necesarily to put like this: Dragonfly - E12 - P7 or should I power P7 directly through Dragonfly?
> 
> ...


----------



## Stelian99

How do you like Dragonfly Red with P7?


Trimis de pe iPhone folosind Tapatalk...


----------



## drjigarn

I don't really feel P7s need an amp, but the red can drive them to a really high volume. I mainly use the red with HE400S and with P7s when I want to listen to at very low volume as the red gives more levels of volume adjustment combined with Jriver in WASAPI mode. I usually use it between 0-10 with P7 for just background music, maximum up to 35-38.


stelian99 said:


> How do you like Dragonfly Red with P7?
> 
> 
> 
> Trimis de pe iPhone folosind Tapatalk...


----------



## Nirvana1000

AudioQuest

"We are currently working on an update that will work around Android’s deficiencies and have a goal of releasing this by early fall. You’ll be able to perform this update via your PC or Mac free of charge. If you’ve registered your product online you’ll receive an email when the update is available. This email will include a link to our desktop application."


----------



## Duncan

Exciting news, thanks for the heads up


----------



## Nirvana1000

No problem. Good news indeed.


----------



## cribeiro

Yes, than you for the information. I can barely wait until then to see which "deficiencies" are addressed by that update to decide if I buy it. Hopefully, we will be able to enjoy all benefits of the Dragonfly without third-party, non-free software. In that case, the only missing feature for me will be the head-set functionality including remote button, but I am ready to live with that disadvantage, as I do not see this feature being implemented in the near future.


----------



## eldss

cleg said:


> My humble 5 cents


 
 @cleg, how do these compare to the Encore mDSD?


----------



## cleg

eldss said:


> @cleg, how do these compare to the Encore mDSD?




Just my opinion, mDSD is definitely better then black, more neutral and more full-bodied. Difference with Red is more of preferences. Red has more weight on low end and more smoothed mids. This gives some sense of "analog" sounding, but mDSD is still close to balanced


----------



## slackerpo

nirvana1000 said:


> AudioQuest
> 
> "We are currently working on an update that will work around Android’s deficiencies and have a goal of releasing this by early fall. You’ll be able to perform this update via your PC or Mac free of charge. If you’ve registered your product online you’ll receive an email when the update is available. This email will include a link to our desktop application."


 
  
 great new indeed! i was sadden to discover that with my android N preview 5, DFR had the issues, despite some users claiming they were gone. havent tested the official kernel yet though. but it would seem that nothing should change. Cant wait for updates.
  


cleg said:


> Just my opinion, mDSD is definitely better then black, more neutral and more full-bodied. Difference with Red is more of preferences. Red has more weight on low end and more smoothed mids. This gives some sense of "analog" sounding, but mDSD is still close to balanced


 
  
 thank you.


----------



## DJ The Rocket

seesax said:


> I shared this in the S7 thread, but thought I would post here. Couldn't be happier with my S7, DF Red, UAPP and Tidal. I added some velcro and a very slim OTG cable and this portable setup is freakin' fantastic.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Are you still using that StarTech cable? I swear I could hear an improvement when I switched to a Radio Shack OTG cable (don't have a convenient helper to do blind testing however). The other (perhaps only) advantage to Radio Shack is a choice between 6" and 12" cables.


----------



## SeeSax

dj the rocket said:


> Are you still using that StarTech cable? I swear I could hear an improvement when I switched to a Radio Shack OTG cable (don't have a convenient helper to do blind testing however). The other (perhaps only) advantage to Radio Shack is a choice between 6" and 12" cables.


 
  
 Unfortunately I am not. While I liked it, I tend to move on pretty quickly in the mobile world  Sorry!
  
 -Collin-


----------



## jsylva

torq said:


> With the Red and ER-6 I found things to be _horribly _bright, bordering on shrill, almost completely lacking in bass and just generally unpleasant.
> 
> That's a stark contrast with my ER-4S and the Red, which sounds very balanced and generally excellent.


 
 Thank you for your timely response. This report is good news from my perspective.


----------



## SearchOfSub

Just got the DFR. Is it worth $200.00? Yes. nicely done. Not bright at all with LCD 2.2.


----------



## estreeter

searchofsub said:


> Just got the DFR. Is it worth $200.00? Yes. nicely done. Not bright at all with LCD 2.2.


 
  
 Thanks for the feedback, but my time with that ortho tells me that you would need a very bright source indeed to achieve that outcome. One of the things I neglected to mention in relation to the WHF review is that they're often accused of giving seriously bright gear high praise because the listening room at the magazine is heavily damped (they rarely audition anything with headphones, FWIR), and that means that bright electronics / speakers often sound better to their reviewers than more balanced competitors. That comes from Brit posters on various forums, so take it with the usual grain of salt, but the consensus here is that the DFR is definitely brighter / more detailed than the Black - how that translates with our individual combination of phones / music / ears is always going to make for a fun discussion. Enjoy your new DAC.


----------



## SomeGuyDude

searchofsub said:


> Just got the DFR. Is it worth $200.00? Yes. nicely done. Not bright at all with LCD 2.2.


 
  
 In fairness, the LCD2.2 is a QUITE warm planar. Which is why I loved 'em.


----------



## ceverson70

I know this may have been answered at some point but with the dragonfly red, as it has its own internal amp, is it still possible to use it just as a DAC(with an iPhone) and use a different amp?


----------



## joeq70

DFR isn't bright.


----------



## SpiderNhan

ceverson70 said:


> I know this may have been answered at some point but with the dragonfly red, as it has its own internal amp, is it still possible to use it just as a DAC(with an iPhone) and use a different amp?


 
 Yes. Just put the volume on the DFR to full and you're good to go.


----------



## brent75

joeq70 said:


> DFR isn't bright.


 
 Agree.
  
 I came from the HA-2, which was too bright on the high end/too thin on the low end (for me).
  
 DFR fixed both of those (for me).


----------



## Nirvana1000

I purchased and demoed the Chord Mojo, Ifi micro dsd and Dragonfly Red in that order.Ifi micro was way too bright for my liking.Mojo was slightly warm with fantastic detail,clarity and so on.But I could not get past that narrow sound stage. I ended up keeping DFR and returned the other two.


----------



## Stelian99

I've bought yesterday a DFR. DFR needs burning? If yes, how many hours?

Thanks!


Trimis de pe iPhone folosind Tapatalk...


----------



## barbes

Touch>Taobao Lightning CCK cable>USB female/female adaptor>DFR.  Works fine.


----------



## escocesrojo

I have an Orei DA21 Optical SPDIF/Coaxial Digital to RCA L/R Analog Audio Converter with 3.5mm Jack Support Headphone/Speaker Outputs connected to the audio out port of an iMac. The optical SPDIF cable connected to the iMac is terminated with a female TOSlink/male 1/8" plug adapter. The Orei DA21 is then connected by stereo audio cable to the CD inputs of a Sony STR-DE185 receiver. Sony MDR V6 headphones are plugged into the headphone out of the receiver.
  
 Sound quality and stereo localization are significantly improved over merely plugging the headphones directly into the iMac audio out port.
  
 What might be gained in audio quality by replacing the inexpensive Orei DA21 with the Audioquest Dragonfly red and JitterBug combo? I have no intention of portable use.


----------



## canali

stelian99 said:


> I've bought yesterday a DFR. DFR needs burning? If yes, how many hours?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> ...


 
 25-30hrs..see AQ website for FAQ


----------



## lauren312

As far as I know, it is 7.3 milliwatts. I have a Cambridge Dacmagic XS for my gym exercising. It brings me so wonderful time working out and makes me enjoy my favorite music.


----------



## psikey

Now I only listen to music via a smartphone or PC through my Shure SE846's and have been using the amazing Chord Mojo, but after now using a Dragonfly Red for a couple of week I've more or less stopped using the Mojo !!
  
 I'm finding the sound quality out of the DFR extremely nice paired with the SE846's and the convenience of weight/size/no battery charging coupled with minimal impact on power draw using with my Note 4 a perfect combination. No static/noise interference either like you can get if close coupling the Mojo to many phones. Dead "black" background with no "hiss" with my SE846's. For Spotify/FLAC HD music I'm really not detecting the Mojo being noticeably better but it is still noticeably better if I play back a DSD natively (White on power ball).
  
 Can't comment on synergy with other IEM's/headphones and the Mojo will obviously drive more demanding ones better, but for most people I'd say the Dragonfly Red is going to be ideal. No need to worry if the latest phone you want has less than great audio, just get the one you like for all its other phone features and just pop the DFR inline.
  
 As always, this is purely based on my hearing so those more "audiophile" types may detect the differences that I can't.
  
 Unless you have demanding headphones or listen to many DSD's I couldn't now advice any of my mates to choose a £400 Mojo over a £169 Dragonfly Red and not just down to cost either.
  
 EDIT:
  
 Forgot to mention the Mojo does have far more levels of volume control and this is an area where the DFR may be of concern. On a PC with sensitive IEMS (9 Ohm) I can really only listen at max volume of 20 (dependant on file) and normally at 7-8 (using Spotify) which leaves little control over volume steps. Also there is still the known issue with Android OS where it thinks the max volume is at 22 (out of 64) but this is being fixed by AQ and with my SE846's being so sensitive still loud enough with my Note 4 but again with little control of volume steps until the fix (no problem if using UAPP App for locally stored MP3/FLAC/DSD etc. or streamed Tidal.).


----------



## SearchOfSub

DFR has a brighter and arier sound overall. But mojo sound more realistic, analog and warmer. With my lcd 2.2, DFR matches better imo even though biggest difference I hear is bass with mojo being more detailed,and hits harder. This is based on pc desktop usage.


----------



## zept0sec

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if I'm using a DFR via OTG cable with UAPP, sound quality shouldn't be any different between using my Galaxy S7 or my older Galaxy S4, right? The phone is reduced to being just a transport?


----------



## SearchOfSub

zept0sec said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but if I'm using a DFR via OTG cable with UAPP, sound quality shouldn't be any different between using my Galaxy S7 or my older Galaxy S4, right? The phone is reduced to being just a transport?





From my experience it does matter and transport do make a difference. Amount of jitter the source has will make difference. Some dacs do it and undigitize better than others. But if the source has less jitter to begin with, the easier it is for the dacs to do its job.


----------



## SpiderNhan

Review from Stereophile. Interesting insights and comparisons between older Dragonfly, Black and Red with speakers, headphones, home and mobile sources. 

http://www.stereophile.com/content/audioquest-dragonfly-red-black-usb-da-headphone-amplifiers-page-2#8zbb6OsuDiiUkYVi.97


----------



## TheEldestBoy

brent75 said:


> Agree.
> 
> I came from the HA-2, which was too bright on the high end/too thin on the low end (for me).
> 
> DFR fixed both of those (for me).


 
  
  
 Others have also posted on this thread that they found the OPPO HA-2 to be "thinner & brighter" than the DFR.  And as a result, they prefer the DFR to the HA-2
  
 Does this apply more to IEM's, or is this the case with high impedance phones as well?
  
 I'm most curious to know if this is an issue when it comes specifically to the Sennheiser HD600/650's.
  
 The HA-2 has more power (which is obviously a positive attribute when it comes driving higher impedance cans)...


----------



## estreeter

spidernhan said:


> Review from Stereophile. Interesting insights and comparisons between older Dragonfly, Black and Red with speakers, headphones, home and mobile sources.
> 
> http://www.stereophile.com/content/audioquest-dragonfly-red-black-usb-da-headphone-amplifiers-page-2#8zbb6OsuDiiUkYVi.97


 
  
  
 Thanks for the link. The measurements are particularly interesting, and AQ's response even more so. Wouldnt be the first time a manufacturer has disagreed with a magazine's assessment of their gear, but AQ were especially keen to compare Atkinson's measurements with Gordon Rankin's - good to see a manufacturer bringing hard data to the table.


----------



## brent75

Ok, weird thing just happened...and I can't tell if my ears are deceiving me.
  
 My old CCK went bad, so I popped into the Apple store for a replacement and decided to get the new Lightning to USB 3 instead of the old CCK. I swear the DFR actually sounds better through this cable than the old one. I wasn't even getting it because of a sound difference (so didn't have any expectation bias) - I just decided to get the new one. But then I started taking notice as I was listening.
  
 What?


----------



## brent75

theeldestboy said:


> Others have also posted on this thread that they found the OPPO HA-2 to be "thinner & brighter" than the DFR.  And as a result, they prefer the DFR to the HA-2
> 
> Does this apply more to IEM's, or is this the case with high impedance phones as well?
> 
> ...


 
 You know - I'm honestly not able to answer that, as I've never heard the 600/650s. When I was using the HA-2 it was mostly with the PM-3...and now I use my DFR mostly with my Westone W30s, as I got the Sine + Cipher to replace the PM-3. That being said, I do use my DFR a fair amount with my Hifiman HE-400S and it sounds awesome (but those are night and day efficient compared to the 600/650 from what I understand).


----------



## estreeter

Apologies iif someone has already linked to Chris Connaker's review over at CA:
  
 http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/714-audioquest-dragonfly-red-dragonfly-black-review/
  
 Its dated August 3rd, but I dont go to the site very often because there are some very argumentative 'IT gurus' in the forums and they frequently tell people like Gordon Rankin and Charles Hansen that they dont understand how a DAC actually works. It inevitably ends badly.
  
 I'm not surprised that Chris has given both DFs very high praise, and its good to see someone acknowledge the issues around volume control.


----------



## estreeter

And while you're on the CA site ....
  

  
 Yup, a Roon endpoint for 8USD over the cost of the Red. I'll istick with my Pi3, but its an interesting gadget.


----------



## SearchOfSub

Mojo was best value until DFR came along. After 2 days of a/b AQ did great job. Can't wait to pair it up with NH owls. Also try NH stock cables (castle rock) with LCD 2.2 - sound is very good.


----------



## jegnyc

brent75 said:


> Ok, weird thing just happened...and I can't tell if my ears are deceiving me.
> 
> My old CCK went bad, so I popped into the Apple store for a replacement and decided to get the new Lightning to USB 3 instead of the old CCK. I swear the DFR actually sounds better through this cable than the old one. I wasn't even getting it because of a sound difference (so didn't have any expectation bias) - I just decided to get the new one. But then I started taking notice as I was listening.
> 
> What?


 
 As I mentioned above, I HAD to upgrade my connector because of a bug with my iPhone.  In my correspondence with Steve Silberman on the issue he stated that newer connector would sound better.  I didn't use the old connector enough to determine for myself.


----------



## brent75

Cool - I hadn't even seen that. I'll scroll back and read.


----------



## Duncan

I have both the original and the USB 3 CCK and oddly, I thought the newer one sounded better too (more dynamics), I thought it was placebo playing tricks on me, but seeing the above, not so sure now! 

Will need to test this more thoroughly.


----------



## berzerk428

has anyone tried to pair the DFR with a Note 7 or to any other Smartphone with a USB Type-C Connector yet? I'm planning to buy a DFR for my Note 7 but I haven't found any sources yet that can verify that the DFR works with a Note 7/Type-C USB Connector..


----------



## west0ne

berzerk428 said:


> has anyone tried to pair the DFR with a Note 7 or to any other Smartphone with a USB Type-C Connector yet? I'm planning to buy a DFR for my Note 7 but I haven't found any sources yet that can verify that the DFR works with a Note 7/Type-C USB Connector..


 
 The DFB works with the Nexus 6P and the standard USB-C to USB adapter. I only tried it briefly and not with UAPP only Google Play Music, it worked the same as on my S7E. Obviously that's no guarantee that it will work with the Note 7 though as Samsung may have done or not done something that prevents it from working properly.


----------



## tommo21

west0ne said:


> The DFB works with the Nexus 6P and the standard USB-C to USB adapter. I only tried it briefly and not with UAPP only Google Play Music, it worked the same as on my S7E. Obviously that's no guarantee that it will work with the Note 7 though as Samsung may have done or not done something that prevents it from working properly.



It did not work without Uapp on my Nexus 6p.


----------



## berzerk428

west0ne said:


> The DFB works with the Nexus 6P and the standard USB-C to USB adapter. I only tried it briefly and not with UAPP only Google Play Music, it worked the same as on my S7E. Obviously that's no guarantee that it will work with the Note 7 though as Samsung may have done or not done something that prevents it from working properly.


 
 Thank you for the quick reply, really appreciate it : ) I'll wait a bit longer then until the phone has been released worldwide and more people have the chance to give feedback about the topic. I might also start a thread on xda-developpers on the subject to speed up the process. ty westone.


----------



## Slaphead

I downloaded the iOS 10 beta (version 7) today and can confirm the at DFR works, at least it did for the 30 or seconds I tried it.

An interesting thing is that iOS10 now announces what device it's using to output audio, and you can see this in the music app and the control centre.

First impressions with the iOS 10 beta are that it does appear to be far less buggy than iOS 9 was when it was first officially released - there were a number of things in iOS 9 that remained broken for 6 months before they were fixed, although admittedly they were fringe usage cases for most people.


----------



## martyn73

Can anyone recommend a sleeve type case which can stay on DF Red when connected to a phone? What Hi-Fi mentioned in their review that the red finish can chip, so any suggestions would be welcome. 

The DF series doesn't look to me that they have been physically designed with portable use in mind (loose cap and lack of rubber case) despite the sound quality being close to desktop class (based on my short trial).


----------



## brent75

martyn73 said:


> Can anyone recommend a sleeve type case which can stay on DF Red when connected to a phone? What Hi-Fi mentioned in their review that the red finish can chip, so any suggestions would be welcome.
> 
> The DF series doesn't look to me that they have been physically designed with portable use in mind (loose cap and lack of rubber case) despite the sound quality being close to desktop class (based on my short trial).


 
 Do you already own one?
  
 If yes - anything wrong with the little leather pouch/sleeve that it comes with? I suppose you could cut the end open, so it can connect w/ wires on both sides.


----------



## good sound

martyn73 said:


> Can anyone recommend a sleeve type case which can stay on DF Red when connected to a phone? What Hi-Fi mentioned in their review that the red finish can chip, so any suggestions would be welcome.
> 
> The DF series doesn't look to me that they have been physically designed with portable use in mind (loose cap and lack of rubber case) despite the sound quality being close to desktop class (based on my short trial).




The cap on my DFR is anything but loose. I actually struggle slightly, at times, to get it off it's so tight. I like the suggestion of just slitting the bottom of the supplied leather pouch for use as a portable case.


----------



## martyn73

brent75 said:


> Do you already own one?
> 
> If yes - anything wrong with the little leather pouch/sleeve that it comes with? I suppose you could cut the end open, so it can connect w/ wires on both sides.


 
 I don't own one, but tried some Audioquest products at CanJam London. I was hoping Audioquest or other manufacturer produce a silicone rubber case to protect the DF Red. Presumably the cap is replaceable if lost.


----------



## Devodonaldson

martyn73 said:


> I don't own one, but tried some Audioquest products at CanJam London. I was hoping Audioquest or other manufacturer produce a silicone rubber case to protect the DF Red. Presumably the cap is replaceable if lost.



I've had my dragonfly red since it came out. I use it daily, keep it in my pocket with my phone. It's durable. I've dropped it twice. Very small minor chip, but I never felt like it needed a sleeve. It's definitely a portable solution


----------



## audiobot

Does the weight of the DFR contort the camera kit cable? They arrive on Monday for me and I'm trying to find out if i can rest my iPhone on my back pocket without the cable getting weird on me.
  
 I have the Aurisonics Rockets to pair with them and canceled my Sennheiser HD650 order from Adorama to offset the DFR cost.


----------



## zept0sec

If anyone is curious, only difference this noob can hear between attaching a DFR to Galaxy S4 vs S7 is having to turn hardware volume slightly higher in UAPP on the S4 to get the same level of volume adjustment via volume rocker controls. I continue to be impressed with the improvement in sound quality over both phones' built-in audio.


----------



## estreeter

martyn73 said:


> Can anyone recommend a sleeve type case which can stay on DF Red when connected to a phone? What Hi-Fi mentioned in their review that the red finish can chip, so any suggestions would be welcome.
> 
> The DF series doesn't look to me that they have been physically designed with portable use in mind (loose cap and lack of rubber case) despite the sound quality being close to desktop class (based on my short trial).


 
  
 The only thing I can suggest is that you cut the 'closed' end off the leather case the DFR comes with, but I know that very few Head-Fiers will be prepared to do that. My DFB hasnt seen the inside of that case since I unboxed it, plugged it in and started listening, but I guess I'm an oddity among the fastidious types who enjoy these sorts of gadgets.


----------



## estreeter

brent75 said:


> Do you already own one?
> 
> If yes - anything wrong with the little leather pouch/sleeve that it comes with? I suppose you could cut the end open, so it can connect w/ wires on both sides.


 
  
 OK - I stand corrected


----------



## psikey

berzerk428 said:


> west0ne said:
> 
> 
> > The DFB works with the Nexus 6P and the standard USB-C to USB adapter. I only tried it briefly and not with UAPP only Google Play Music, it worked the same as on my S7E. Obviously that's no guarantee that it will work with the Note 7 though as Samsung may have done or not done something that prevents it from working properly.
> ...




I have a DFR and a usb-c OTG cable so just waiting for my Note 7 to arrive. Will let you know when tested unless someone else confirms first.

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk


----------



## wwyjoe

I'm using Note 7 (Exynos model) with the supplied Samsung USB C adapter to the DFR, and played thru USB Audio Player Pro. No issues and experiencing audio bliss!


----------



## berzerk428

psikey said:


> I have a DFR and a usb-c OTG cable so just waiting for my Note 7 to arrive. Will let you know when tested unless someone else confirms first.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk


 
 thank you psikey, wwyjoe just seems so have confirmed that this works, however..
  


> Originally Posted by *wwyjoe* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> I'm using Note 7 (Exynos model) with the supplied Samsung USB C adapter to the DFR, and played thru USB Audio Player Pro. No issues and experiencing audio bliss!


 
 .. is the UAPP required to get the DFR working? Because that would mean that I cant use the Dragonfly at all, I require the Rocket Player because it allows me to sync with iTunes directly and Rocket Player has ID3 tags that allow me to keep all of my iTunes star ratings : S isnt there the option to enable USB Audio since Android Lollipop?


----------



## ld100

Just received DFB and there is a lot of movement between the housing and the insides. I can feel the whole think from USB on one end to headphone jack on the other moving inside. Is this normal? Should I exchange? Expected it to be quite solid.... Help!


----------



## SpiderNhan

ld100 said:


> Just received DFB and there is a lot of movement between the housing and the insides. I can feel the whole think from USB on one end to headphone jack on the other moving inside. Is this normal? Should I exchange? Expected it to be quite solid.... Help!


 
 Yeah. Exchange it. My Red is bit wiggly, but no more than any USB memory stick. Yours sounds broken.


----------



## estreeter

ld100 said:


> Just received DFB and there is a lot of movement between the housing and the insides. I can feel the whole think from USB on one end to headphone jack on the other moving inside. Is this normal? Should I exchange? Expected it to be quite solid.... Help!


 
  
 As with most of the dongle DACs, I dont think it would be very hard to remove the board from the housing and still have a working unit, but you didnt pay for a bare board. Return it and get another one.


----------



## wwyjoe

berzerk428 said:


> thank you psikey, wwyjoe just seems so have confirmed that this works, however..
> 
> .. is the UAPP required to get the DFR working? Because that would mean that I cant use the Dragonfly at all, I require the Rocket Player because it allows me to sync with iTunes directly and Rocket Player has ID3 tags that allow me to keep all of my iTunes star ratings : S isnt there the option to enable USB Audio since Android Lollipop?





I've not tried Rocketplayer, but there's an option in UAPP (i.e "Play through Android") to play through other music apps. But i suspect his may bypass the DFR...


----------



## ph0n6

Hi. I have a few questions regarding the DFR:
 - How much power does it consumes exactly? (in mA, the odac uses about 50mA).
 - How does it sounds as a DAC only compared to the ODAC?
 - Most important of all, I know it is optimized for mobile devices but I was just wondering does it works as a plug n play to the computer and is there AISO driver for it? Also does the DFR support USB audio 1.0? It is crucial as I used the Lumia 950 XL, apperently it only support USB Audio 1.0 (pretty much works like a windows PC without the ability to install drivers), if it works directly with Windows it should also work with the phone.


----------



## zolom

After installing the latest  rom update (August) on my (exynos) S7 Edge, the volume levels with my DFB had improved significantly.


----------



## jdizza

Hi,
  
 I have searched the thread for answers but Im a little lost on this one I must admit.
  
 Does the Dragonfly Red work with Nexus 6p?
  
 Regards


----------



## Devodonaldson

jdizza said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have searched the thread for answers but Im a little lost on this one I must admit.
> 
> ...



Yes it does work, but as with all android phones, there is a major volume issue on stock apps. Honestly the whole audio is an issue as it is run through android drivers first and up sampled. Therefore I use apps like usb audio player pro to play my locally stored files or stream Tidal to get that wonderful "as desired" audio from my dac


----------



## jdizza

devodonaldson said:


> Yes it does work, but as with all android phones, there is a major volume issue on stock apps. Honestly the whole audio is an issue as it is run through android drivers first and up sampled. Therefore I use apps like usb audio player pro to play my locally stored files or stream Tidal to get that wonderful "as desired" audio from my dac


 
 Thanks for your response. Im currently (and have always been on iOS), so this android world is a new experience. Does this mean I cannot listen to Spotify and using the dragonfly at the same time?


----------



## tommo21

jdizza said:


> Thanks for your response. Im currently (and have always been on iOS), so this android world is a new experience. Does this mean I cannot listen to Spotify and using the dragonfly at the same time?


 

 Short answer: Yes! I have always been an android guy, but I actually bought an Ipod Touch just to use as my dap with DFB.


----------



## Devodonaldson

jdizza said:


> Thanks for your response. Im currently (and have always been on iOS), so this android world is a new experience. Does this mean I cannot listen to Spotify and using the dragonfly at the same time?



Unfortunately, currently there is now way to get the dragonfly to play at reasonable volume levels on normal android app, meaning, no Spotify right now. I actually own a second cheap dac that I use for video, etc. Sound quality isn't anywhere near the same level as usb audio player pro drivers, however, I am able to use it with whatever app I choose. I use the dragonfly to listen to flac audio exclusively. This is actually the reason I signed up for tidal hifi. To me, it has been worth the trade off. I have the smsl ivy dac for other apps, connected to a usb extension cable


----------



## jdizza

tommo21 said:


> Short answer: Yes! I have always been an android guy, but I actually bought an Ipod Touch just to use as my dap with DFB.


 
  
  


devodonaldson said:


> Unfortunately, currently there is now way to get the dragonfly to play at reasonable volume levels on normal android app, meaning, no Spotify right now. I actually own a second cheap dac that I use for video, etc. Sound quality isn't anywhere near the same level as usb audio player pro drivers, however, I am able to use it with whatever app I choose. I use the dragonfly to listen to flac audio exclusively. This is actually the reason I signed up for tidal hifi. To me, it has been worth the trade off. I have the smsl ivy dac for other apps, connected to a usb extension cable


 
 Thanks both of you. I think I'll stick to iPhone then. The android + dragonfly seems to much of a hazzle in my opinion.


----------



## west0ne

devodonaldson said:


> Unfortunately, currently there is now way to get the dragonfly to play at reasonable volume levels on normal android app, meaning, no Spotify right now. I actually own a second cheap dac that I use for video, etc. Sound quality isn't anywhere near the same level as usb audio player pro drivers, however, I am able to use it with whatever app I choose. I use the dragonfly to listen to flac audio exclusively. This is actually the reason I signed up for tidal hifi. To me, it has been worth the trade off. I have the smsl ivy dac for other apps, connected to a usb extension cable


 
 Is the volume issue you are having with the Red as I am using the Black and that is able to get efficient headphones to a reasonable level with system audio (any App), granted it goes much louder when used with UAPP and it may struggle with harder to drive headphones. My view with the DFB is that if the headphones you plan on using get to a reasonable volume straight from the headphone jack on the phone you should get a reasonable volume from the DFB. If you are on a rooted phone you can change the internal volume to get the full range and it has been suggested that AQ are preparing a firmware update to fix the volume issues affecting Android.


----------



## estreeter

I'm delighted to announce that any volume issues completely went away with the Raspberry Pi3 and the DFB - much finer gradations between 'too quiet' and 'OMG, I'm deaf !'. SQ is roughly the same as via USB OTG from my Lenovo tablet but I'm much happier with my ability to finetune the volume depending on genre/artist/recording. Moving between music recorded at the height of the loudness wars and back can be really 'interesting' from my laptop - much gentler on the ears from the Pi3. I still think running the DFB at 98% into an external amp makes more sense than straight to your headphones, but this is the first time that I've been genuinely happy to be at the mercy of a digital volume slider.


----------



## Smileyko

Dear Fans of Dragonfly:  I am a total rookie here just got into this thing like 5 months ago. Bought a lots of new gear. Never know what to do to get the real potential out of them. Has anyone use the RED to power an amp like the Violectric V220. I am getting that tomorrow delivered and I want to burn in with the RED. Would this actually sound good? Should the volume on the RED be turn to full? Then control the listening volume via the amp? Most thankful for any pointers.


----------



## psikey

devodonaldson said:


> Unfortunately, currently there is now way to get the dragonfly to play at reasonable volume levels on normal android app, meaning, no Spotify right now. I actually own a second cheap dac that I use for video, etc. Sound quality isn't anywhere near the same level as usb audio player pro drivers, however, I am able to use it with whatever app I choose. I use the dragonfly to listen to flac audio exclusively. This is actually the reason I signed up for tidal hifi. To me, it has been worth the trade off. I have the smsl ivy dac for other apps, connected to a usb extension cable


 
  
 Depends on your earphones. Even with the current volume issue Spotify sounds fine my DFR using with my Note 4/ S7 /Z5 with my low impedance Shure SE846's but I have to have the phones set to just one step below max and not much volume control until the fix from AudioQuest comes along. Works perfectly if using UAPP as already stated.


----------



## MockingK

Hello everyone,
 I will receive my DFR tomorrow and I wonder is it a must to use it via UAPP. 
 I have been using poweramp exclusively on my S7edge, does it work with poweramp at all or i have to use UAPP for better volume and playback?
 Thanks


----------



## The Third

Does the Dragonfly Red pair well with a Magni 2 with a 3.5mm to rca cable?


----------



## drummguy26

Hey guys,
  
 Ive been reading almost every page of this thread to play "catch up" on what everybody's saying about the DFB and DFR. From what Ive gathered, Im thinking that the DFR is the better deal over the DFB in terms of musical separation, soundstage and overall SQ. Now Im looking to invest in one of these (most likely the DFR), but I need some clarification on something. I read in someones post that the DFR more or less neutralizes the sound and for the most part, gets rid of "boomy" bass. I've read that the DFB is the one to go with if I like bass and a warmer sound, but I want the DFR for the clarity and technical advantages it has over the DFB. I was under the impression that the DFR enhances all aspects of your IEM's/Cans depending on what sound signature it has.
  
 So my main question is if Im a fan of deep, quality bass, and lossless music, will I go wrong with the DFR? Or is the DFB the one for me? Is the clarity and/or energy really that much different from the Red? Btw, Im looking to use this exclusively with my iphone 6, with AS2.5's and FXA7 IEM's.
  
  
 Also, would the iphone 6 > apple cck > jitterbug > DFB be a good combo for great detail and hard hitting bass? Does the Black/Red really benefit much using the jitterbug?


----------



## brent75

drummguy26 said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> Ive been reading almost every page of this thread to play "catch up" on what everybody's saying about the DFB and DFR. From what Ive gathered, Im thinking that the DFR is the better deal over the DFB in terms of musical separation, soundstage and overall SQ. Now Im looking to invest in one of these (most likely the DFR), but I need some clarification on something. I read in someones post that the DFR more or less neutralizes the sound and for the most part, gets rid of "boomy" bass. I've read that the DFB is the one to go with if I like bass and a warmer sound, but I want the DFR for the clarity and technical advantages it has over the DFB. I was under the impression that the DFR enhances all aspects of your IEM's/Cans depending on what sound signature it has.
> 
> ...


 
  
 My two cents: to achieve the bass you want, I would focus more on the headphones/IEMs you're going to use and less on the DAC/AMP pushing it. I personally love the DFR because of its clarity/separation qualities...and feel those are great qualities to pair up with more bass-focused headphones. Best of both worlds.


----------



## drummguy26

brent75 said:


> My two cents: to achieve the bass you want, I would focus more on the headphones/IEMs you're going to use and less on the DAC/AMP pushing it. I personally love the DFR because of its clarity/separation qualities...and feel those are great qualities to pair up with more bass-focused headphones. Best of both worlds.


 
  
 That's great to hear! Did u listen to the DFB to compare (for your tastes)? What headphones are u pairing with it?
  
 Also, does anyone have any experience with the Jitterbug and how much of benefit does it truly provide?


----------



## brent75

drummguy26 said:


> That's great to hear! Did u listen to the DFB to compare (for your tastes)? What headphones are u pairing with it?
> 
> Also, does anyone have any experience with the Jitterbug and how much of benefit does it truly provide?


 
  
 I have never heard DFB -- I just started with DFR out of the gate and have never looked back.
  
 I pair it with the headphones in my signature: Hifiman HE400S, Westone W30, AKG N60 NC and Sine a tad bit (but really just use the Cipher for that).
  
 I use Jitterbug (and Dragontail extender) when listening on laptop + the HE400s, but don't otherwise use it anywhere else.


----------



## drummguy26

brent75 said:


> I have never heard DFB -- I just started with DFR out of the gate and have never looked back.
> 
> I pair it with the headphones in my signature: Hifiman HE400S, Westone W30, AKG N60 NC and Sine a tad bit (but really just use the Cipher for that).
> 
> I use Jitterbug (and Dragontail extender) when listening on laptop + the HE400s, but don't otherwise use it anywhere else.


 

 Thanks for your feedback. Much appreciated.
  
 Seeing that you use jitterbug for your laptop, would you recommend using it for the iphone alone? Not plugging into home audio.... I see a lot of people just using their DF's connected to their iphones via CCK cable without a jitterbug. Im assuming a jitterbug in this setup isn't necessary or doesn't yield as much benefit than using it on your laptop?


----------



## pkcpga

drummguy26 said:


> Thanks for your feedback. Much appreciated.
> 
> Seeing that you use jitterbug for your laptop, would you recommend using it for the iphone alone? Not plugging into home audio.... I see a lot of people just using their DF's connected to their iphones via CCK cable without a jitterbug. Im assuming a jitterbug in this setup isn't necessary or doesn't yield as much benefit than using it on your laptop?




I noticed no difference with using the jitterbug and the Apple cck cable, either way their was a niose floor with IEM's. The jitterbug did help with a desktop or laptop that's plugged into the wall and its power source is not going through a conditioner. I kept neither, returned both, didn't work for me.


----------



## brent75

drummguy26 said:


> Thanks for your feedback. Much appreciated.
> 
> Seeing that you use jitterbug for your laptop, would you recommend using it for the iphone alone? Not plugging into home audio.... I see a lot of people just using their DF's connected to their iphones via CCK cable without a jitterbug. Im assuming a jitterbug in this setup isn't necessary or doesn't yield as much benefit than using it on your laptop?


 
  
 I do notice improvement with laptop - I don't notice any difference with my iPhone or iPod. Besides, adding more "stuff" to the chain would eliminate the discreet portability one gains with the DFR/CCK approach...so even if it did make a difference I probably wouldn't use it (too many things/cords tied together in my pocket).
  
 DFR is dead quiet (no hiss whatsoever) with my Westones, FYI.


----------



## drummguy26

brent75 said:


> I do notice improvement with laptop - I don't notice any difference with my iPhone or iPod. Besides, adding more "stuff" to the chain would eliminate the discreet portability one gains with the DFR/CCK approach...so even if it did make a difference I probably wouldn't use it (too many things/cords tied together in my pocket).
> 
> DFR is dead quiet (no hiss whatsoever) with my Westones, FYI.


 

 Great to hear. I think that settles it then. DFR it is  
  
 I already have bass heavy IEM's, so Im not worried about the take away of the bass. Looking forward to more clarity in bass and everything else. And I'll be sure to do the 24hr burn in time before I use it for pure listening. Really looking forward to this purchase, as all Ive ever listened to was straight out of my iPhone. =P


----------



## psikey

When I was using Klipsch X10i and Shure SE535's I tried a few DAC/AMP including Oppo HA2 and DF1.2 and cant say I noticecd big improvements.

For me, I then went mad and bought the Shure SE846's as my last try with hi-end portable music and wow... what an impovement. Ive never looked to improve on them since other than tempted with the Kaiser K10's.

So then went for Chord Mojo and that also gave me a step-change imrovement especially playing native DSD's, its still better audio quality than the DFR but bigger, needs charging and get noise interference if close coupled to many smartphones (unless in flight mode). So I gave the DFR a go and as I said earlier, its now used all the time and I've actually now sold the Mojo.

Its nearly as good sound quality for sub DSD music (I'd say 90% compared to Mojo) yet small, self powered and so convenient to use with either PC or smartphone (plus less than half price of Mojo). If your only consideration is ultimatee sound quality then its still a Chord Mojo if looking under £500.

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk


----------



## Devodonaldson

psikey said:


> Depends on your earphones. Even with the current volume issue Spotify sounds fine my DFR using with my Note 4/ S7 /Z5 with my low impedance Shure SE846's but I have to have the phones set to just one step below max and not much volume control until the fix from AudioQuest comes along. Works perfectly if using UAPP as already stated.



You're correct. However I only use headphones as opposed to earphones so I didn't think about it. As far as headphones go, with an impedance of at least 28 ohm, my statement holds true, especially with the DFR


----------



## Pastapipo

mockingk said:


> Hello everyone,
> I will receive my DFR tomorrow and I wonder is it a must to use it via UAPP.
> I have been using poweramp exclusively on my S7edge, does it work with poweramp at all or i have to use UAPP for better volume and playback?
> Thanks


 
  
  
 I use my DFB with a ZTE Axon mini without UAPP. I will not get the high-res support, but do get an improved sound quality with poweramp/spotify and youtube.
 The new Poweramp v3 alpha does support high-res DACs, but it is still buggy. Some people do get high-res support, some don't. I am one of the people who don't.
  
 If you own high-res music, it is maybe worth investing in UAPP. Since I do not own any high-res music, I will keep on using the DFB without UAPP.


----------



## VRacer-111

smileyko said:


> Dear Fans of Dragonfly:  I am a total rookie here just got into this thing like 5 months ago. Bought a lots of new gear. Never know what to do to get the real potential out of them. Has anyone use the RED to power an amp like the Violectric V220. I am getting that tomorrow delivered and I want to burn in with the RED. Would this actually sound good? Should the volume on the RED be turn to full? Then control the listening volume via the amp? Most thankful for any pointers.




I run my DFR output to a Meier Audio JAZZ-ff amp at home, mainly to have better volume control. I usually have the laptop volume for the DFR maxed and amp on high gain...so at minimum gain knob position it is right at normal listening volume with my most sensitive phones (Fostex TH-X00 Purplehearts) when in high gain boost.
To me, the DFR sounds best by itself, but having an external amp makes it much easier to use. Virtually zero sound difference between the DFR and DFR + JAZZ-ff... other than it seems a nearly intangible bit cleaner without the amp.


----------



## VRacer-111

drummguy26 said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> Ive been reading almost every page of this thread to play "catch up" on what everybody's saying about the DFB and DFR. From what Ive gathered, Im thinking that the DFR is the better deal over the DFB in terms of musical separation, soundstage and overall SQ. Now Im looking to invest in one of these (most likely the DFR), but I need some clarification on something. I read in someones post that the DFR more or less neutralizes the sound and for the most part, gets rid of "boomy" bass. I've read that the DFB is the one to go with if I like bass and a warmer sound, but I want the DFR for the clarity and technical advantages it has over the DFB. I was under the impression that the DFR enhances all aspects of your IEM's/Cans depending on what sound signature it has.
> 
> ...




DFR + Fostex TH-X00 Purplehearts = a wonderfully heavenly bass experience...

Love the FLAC download I purchased of this newly released song: My Galaxy


----------



## estreeter

Just to be crystal clear, *the DAC in the Dragonflys doesnt 'push' anything* - if you're using an external amplifier, all you need to do is crank the volume in the OS and your music playback app to 100 (I use 95 to avoid any possibility of distortion, FWIW) and your amp will get all the signal it needs. If you go back over the Stereophile and TAS reviews, its clear that they plugged various DF models into some very expensive speaker rigs and were very impressed with the results - the same should hold true for any good headphone amp. Whether you like what comes out of the Black or the Red (or any of the earlier models) is a much tougher question, but I have no doubt that a functioning Dragonfly will offer a much better signal than any laptop / phone / tablet out there : those who feel otherwise should return their DF for a refund.


----------



## Smileyko

Thanks so much for all the input. I am now lighting up the WA7 with the DFR and Yesssssss....... It's all good.


----------



## drummguy26

pkcpga said:


> After having sound issues and weird battery drain issues but only randomly, I ditched both DF's after borrowing the chord mojo this weekend from my local dealer. Considering it's only the size and weight of the two df put together the drastic sound difference, volume control and self powered, made the decision easy for me. It's by far a much better DAC, I'm playing high res music from my onkyo player at 192 or 176 from my phone instead of 96 or 88 on the df connected to my phone. There's far better separation and the mojo easily powers my hd800 or my rs1000e and any of my IEM's much better, with high, standard or low gain and up to 32/768 which I have never seen a recording that high yet it's worth the size and weight gain, much better than adding an additional battery. I actually like the mojo DAC better than my Lynn home DAC which was 4 or 5 times the price. If your unhappy with your df the mojo is amazing definitely worth the price difference and much better than the 1,000 Sony.
> 
> I also found the df drains battery faster at below 60% on my phone than above it, than stops functioning at around 20%.


 
  
@pkcpga - I just saw your post about the chord mojo. You're making me seriously consider buying this... But a huge part of me cant justify a $600 purchase for a portable DAC... The main thing Im concerned about - is it worth $600 for an upgrade over the DAC coming from my iphone? I can see more bang for my buck getting the DFR, but I don't know if the chord mojo is $400 better than the DFR. I mean this is coming from someone who's never used an external DAC before in his life, so I could just be talking out of ignorance. I just want to maximize my sound quality for the music I listen to. If you honestly think that the chord mojo is worth its price for the musical qualities it provides, then I'll seriously consider it. But if its only a marginal upgrade over the DFR, then I wont waste my time. Can you help me out here?
  
 Im also interested in using it for when I go to the gym. Does it come with a belt clip? And do you think its portable enough for working out with it clipped on?


----------



## brent75

Oh cripes, not this again...
  
 Here are some thoughts:
  

pkcpga will tell assuredly you DFR sucks/Mojo rules/blah blah blah -- he's told us many times on this thread
Other people here will tell you the opposite
Put me in the "other people" camp -- I think Mojo sounds great, but DFR does too and I personally enjoy some of the  benefits including (1) no need to ever charge/recharge, (2) smaller/most discrete, (3) firmware upgrade-capable and (4) 1/3 the price
Some people get hung up on what the "ceiling" is for DFR vs Mojo (96 vs much higher) -- I've deemed that my ears can't hear a difference, but you'll have to determine if yours can or cannot
As some hopefully helpful advice, you should abandon requests like "If you honestly think that the chord mojo is worth its price for the musical qualities it provides, then I'll seriously consider it. But if its only a marginal upgrade over the DFR, then I wont waste my time. Can you help me out here?" ---- this is entirely a subjective decision and you can't rely on someone else to decide what YOU think equates to value/happiness/worthwhile/etc...you ask 50 people and you'll get 50 responses
I will dispute the claim that "it's only the size and weight of the two df put together" -- that's just not true...DFR is basically a lightweight little USB stick and Mojo is basically an awkard-shaped heavy little tank
The bullet is important because you said you're interested in using it at the gym --- to me, something like Mojo is not what you'd want to pursue for gym use...heck, I'd even debate if DFR is worth it for that (but it would be more so than Mojo)
The absolute best thing to do if you possibly can is purchase both...audition both...then return for refund the one decide against. Is that possible for you? (not sure where you live)


----------



## drummguy26

brent75 said:


> Oh cripes, not this again...
> 
> Here are some thoughts:
> 
> ...


 

 Yea I know this question has been asked to death, and I probably shouldn't have opened up the can again... I just wanted to hear his take on it because of his claims that the mojo is "so much better" than the DFR. I wanted to know exactly why he felt that way. I know he said the musical separation is better and whatnot, but I cant imagine the DFR sounding that much worse since it is a competing DAC afterall...
  
 I would definitely consider buying both of them and trying them out myself. I know that's the best way to go about things, but initial cost and (justifying it to my wife) is an issue. Lol. Cos if I end up liking the mojo more, then that's $600 in the hole as opposed to $200. Anyway, I just wanted to hear why he felt so strongly about it. But thanks for your feedback. I really appreciate it.


----------



## brent75

I hear you, and I know you didn't mean any ill intent. I think it's fine to solicit general opinions from people on this thread comparing DFR to Mojo (e.g. wanting to hear from multiple people why it is or is not worth the extra $400).
  
 But when you go to one person and one person only (especially if that person is super strong in their convictions like he is)...you unwittingly create a "tell me why I should buy a Mojo on the DFR thread." That's what I and others want to avoid -- the preference would be if you strictly want to hear about Mojo, to ask him (or others) on the Mojo thread.
  
 Again, no harm no foul.
  
 Good luck in your search!


----------



## SpiderNhan

Everything brent75 said.


----------



## drummguy26

brent75 said:


> I hear you, and I know you didn't mean any ill intent. I think it's fine to solicit general opinions from people on this thread comparing DFR to Mojo (e.g. wanting to hear from multiple people why it is or is not worth the extra $400).
> 
> But when you go to one person and one person only (especially if that person is super strong in their convictions like he is)...you unwittingly create a "tell me why I should buy a Mojo on the DFR thread." That's what I and others want to avoid -- the preference would be if you strictly want to hear about Mojo, to ask him (or others) on the Mojo thread.
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks man! Yea after I found out the iphone was probably gonna get rid of its 3.5mm jack, I started searching for more premium solutions for my phone. I don't use my desktop or laptop that much, let alone listen to music extensively on it, so my primary use is my iphone. DFR seems to be a really good solution for a really good and reasonable price. The only things that worry me is what people are saying about it being "too bright" and that the bass response is diminished or whatever. Ive heard everything in the spectrum from various people. I understand too that it depends on the headphones (bright/dark) you're using and its impendence, but I don't have huge expensive cans. I have small tiny expensive IEM's. Lol. So Im just trying to figure out what the best solution is for me, and DFR seems to be very compelling. Again, Im not trying to power a 300 ohm set of headphones. The max I'd be driving is about 32 ohms. So Im thinking the DFR is a solid choice.
  
 Now another question... I also have a Fiio e06. Tiny little amp. I see that a lot of people have been complaining about lack of volume control with the DF's and whatnot, so I was thinking to maybe put it inline with the DFR. Would that "ruin" anything sound quality wise? I know it would probably make things even brighter, but its a risk Im willing to take.


----------



## foreverzer0

drummguy26 said:


> Thanks man! Yea after I found out the iphone was probably gonna get rid of its 3.5mm jack, I started searching for more premium solutions for my phone. I don't use my desktop or laptop that much, let alone listen to music extensively on it, so my primary use is my iphone. DFR seems to be a really good solution for a really good and reasonable price. The only things that worry me is what people are saying about it being "too bright" and that the bass response is diminished or whatever. Ive heard everything in the spectrum from various people. I understand too that it depends on the headphones (bright/dark) you're using and its impendence, but I don't have huge expensive cans. I have small tiny expensive IEM's. Lol. So Im just trying to figure out what the best solution is for me, and DFR seems to be very compelling. Again, Im not trying to power a 300 ohm set of headphones. The max I'd be driving is about 32 ohms. So Im thinking the DFR is a solid choice.
> 
> Now another question... I also have a Fiio e06. Tiny little amp. I see that a lot of people have been complaining about lack of volume control with the DF's and whatnot, so I was thinking to maybe put it inline with the DFR. Would that "ruin" anything sound quality wise? I know it would probably make things even brighter, but its a risk Im willing to take.


 
  
 I've powered my 470ohm ATH-R70X with the DFR and it plays plenty loud and still has bottom end. It's not even a "night and day" difference between that and my full desktop geek pulse infinity (3w output) with a linear power supply. In terms of brightness, even on your most sibilant tracks imo the dragonflys smooth things over (especially the black) so you never feel uncomfortable or fatigued. I can't say the same about my LH gear.


----------



## brent75

drummguy26 said:


> Thanks man! Yea after I found out the iphone was probably gonna get rid of its 3.5mm jack, I started searching for more premium solutions for my phone. I don't use my desktop or laptop that much, let alone listen to music extensively on it, so my primary use is my iphone. DFR seems to be a really good solution for a really good and reasonable price. The only things that worry me is what people are saying about it being "too bright" and that the bass response is diminished or whatever. Ive heard everything in the spectrum from various people. I understand too that it depends on the headphones (bright/dark) you're using and its impendence, but I don't have huge expensive cans. I have small tiny expensive IEM's. Lol. So Im just trying to figure out what the best solution is for me, and DFR seems to be very compelling. Again, Im not trying to power a 300 ohm set of headphones. The max I'd be driving is about 32 ohms. So Im thinking the DFR is a solid choice.
> 
> Now another question... I also have a Fiio e06. Tiny little amp. I see that a lot of people have been complaining about lack of volume control with the DF's and whatnot, so I was thinking to maybe put it inline with the DFR. Would that "ruin" anything sound quality wise? I know it would probably make things even brighter, but its a risk Im willing to take.


 
 I can't comment on your Fiio e06 question -- I'm not familiar with it at all.
  
 If you have bass-heavy IEMs, I wouldn't worry about your "too bright" concern. That mostly seems to be when people pair DFR with a headphone/IEM that's bright to begin with. But it won't suddenly transform bass monsters into treble screechers. But again, only your ears will tell if you if you've achieved the sound you want (at a value you're comfortable with). You seem interested enough in DFR that the best course of action is probably to buy it and audition it within the 30-day window. If you like it -- keep it. If you're still unsure, then you can return and decide to audition something more expensive (then rinse/repeat on the returns...you can always come back to DFR).
  
 Whatever you end up going with, just be prepared that DAC/AMP upgrades will NOT hit you in the face as immediately and noticeably as headphone upgrades. Whether you pick Mojo or DFR or something else, don't want you to be disappointed after the first song!


----------



## drummguy26

brent75 said:


> I can't comment on your Fiio e06 question -- I'm not familiar with it at all.
> 
> If you have bass-heavy IEMs, I wouldn't worry about your "too bright" concern. That mostly seems to be when people pair DFR with a headphone/IEM that's bright to begin with. But it won't suddenly transform bass monsters into treble screechers. But again, only your ears will tell if you if you've achieved the sound you want (at a value you're comfortable with). You seem interested enough in DFR that the best course of action is probably to buy it and audition it within the 30-day window. If you like it -- keep it. If you're still unsure, then you can return and decide to audition something more expensive (then rinse/repeat on the returns...you can always come back to DFR).
> 
> Whatever you end up going with, just be prepared that DAC/AMP upgrades will NOT hit you in the face as immediately and noticeably as headphone upgrades. Whether you pick Mojo or DFR or something else, don't want you to be disappointed after the first song!


 
  


foreverzer0 said:


> I've powered my 470ohm ATH-R70X with the DFR and it plays plenty loud and still has bottom end. It's not even a "night and day" difference between that and my full desktop geek pulse infinity (3w output) with a linear power supply. In terms of brightness, even on your most sibilant tracks imo the dragonflys smooth things over (especially the black) so you never feel uncomfortable or fatigued. I can't say the same about my LH gear.


 
  
 Yes, I have very bass heavy IEM's, so I guess I shouldn't worry. The only IEM that concerns me is the FXA7. Its already a bright IEM to begin with, so hopefully the DFR doesn't negatively impact it in that regard. We'll see.
  
 And I see your point about the DFR not hitting me in the face with a huge difference right off the bat. Its gonna be subtle differences that I'll hear here and there, so Im prepared for that. 
  
@foreverzer0 - That's good to hear about the smoothing out effect! I cant wait to hear the sound differences than whats coming out of my phone. Besides, I didn't invest in HiFi headphones and new cables for nothing! =P


----------



## pkcpga

drummguy26 said:


> @pkcpga
> - I just saw your post about the chord mojo. You're making me seriously consider buying this... But a huge part of me cant justify a $600 purchase for a portable DAC... The main thing Im concerned about - is it worth $600 for an upgrade over the DAC coming from my iphone? I can see more bang for my buck getting the DFR, but I don't know if the chord mojo is $400 better than the DFR. I mean this is coming from someone who's never used an external DAC before in his life, so I could just be talking out of ignorance. I just want to maximize my sound quality for the music I listen to. If you honestly think that the chord mojo is worth its price for the musical qualities it provides, then I'll seriously consider it. But if its only a marginal upgrade over the DFR, then I wont waste my time. Can you help me out here?
> 
> Im also interested in using it for when I go to the gym. Does it come with a belt clip? And do you think its portable enough for working out with it clipped on?




Wether the mojo is worth $400 more is personal, it's better than the red in many ways that are sound related but it's not more portable than the dfr. I personally find the mojo to be much more refined, better timing and better details than the dfr. The dfr was too bright for my personal taste but as people stated its great for people with more bass heavy headphones or IEM's. I had issues with two that I tried. And the clicking or hissing sound seems to be a common issue with iPhone users and depending on your Iem may be a non issue. If you have the ability I'd suggest demoing both, they seem to both be pretty regularly available now. For me the switch was very well worth the price difference. The brighter dfr combined with its extra niose with the iPhone drove me up the wall. Good luck.

I found neither work well at the gym, the extra cords and trying to tie up extra dangling parts is easier said than done. I've used the mojo for cycling but never that easy for at the gym. Banding the mojo to the back of your phone works similarly to a df but it adds weight and both add more cords that can become unattached while working out.

Unlike some other DAC/amps I did immediately notice a difference from the mojo to the dfr and the older df I had before it. The first 30 seconds into the song the timing and separated details were very apparent, sounds more like my home DAC.


----------



## Slaphead

Dragonfly Red or Mojo?

Ultimately it comes down to your usage case.

Sure the Mojo trumps the DFR in a multitude of things to my ears, but then again it should do as it's 3 times more expensive, but those things are really only audable in a relatively quiet room with good cans.

When you get mobile and out onto the streets, trains and buses then the DFR wins mainly because of the inherent portability of the device, lack of the need to charge, and the fact that the ambient background noise eliminates pretty much all of the benefit of the Mojo's more detailed presentation.

I own both, and due to my usage case the DFR gets more use than the Mojo. Not because it's better, but because it fits with what I do, where the Mojo doesn't fit so well. The Mojo, however, is an absolute godsend for my weekend listening sessions at home.

So which should you buy? Well, if you're mostly on the move then the DFR, but if you mostly listen at home, or in hotel rooms, then the Mojo. Actually the best solution is to buy both.


----------



## SearchOfSub

drummguy26 said:


> @pkcpga
> - I just saw your post about the chord mojo. You're making me seriously consider buying this... But a huge part of me cant justify a $600 purchase for a portable DAC... The main thing Im concerned about - is it worth $600 for an upgrade over the DAC coming from my iphone? I can see more bang for my buck getting the DFR, but I don't know if the chord mojo is $400 better than the DFR. I mean this is coming from someone who's never used an external DAC before in his life, so I could just be talking out of ignorance. I just want to maximize my sound quality for the music I listen to. If you honestly think that the chord mojo is worth its price for the musical qualities it provides, then I'll seriously consider it. But if its only a marginal upgrade over the DFR, then I wont waste my time. Can you help me out here?
> 
> Im also interested in using it for when I go to the gym. Does it come with a belt clip? And do you think its portable enough for working out with it clipped on?





Only thing Mojo is better than DFR is bass. Other then that, mid range and treble I prefer DFR. $400.00 difference? No. To me it's more of sound signature one prefers over the other at this point.


----------



## psikey

Agree fully with above comments, but in my case I sold my Mojo and now just happy with the DFR. 

One big negative the Mojo has for mobile use is the noise interfernce when close coupled to a smartphone with 3G/4G signal. Often will need to put the phone in flight mode. Not had any noise issue with the DFR

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk


----------



## SearchOfSub

brent75 said:


> Oh cripes, not this again...
> 
> Here are some thoughts:
> 
> ...





The higher sampling rate you go, the more relaxed it sounds, but it also loses "bite" of the music at the same time. I quite enjoy 96 sampling rate of the DFR and don't need any higher. If you are looking for the ultimate real sound, you shouldn't be looking at DFR or Mojo anyway. Both belong in same category level sound and it's more of sound signature difference to me between the two. I prefer the DFR with my LCD headphone.


----------



## estreeter

Definitely agree with AQ that a DAC - in this case, the DFB - sounds better after 24 hours of continual operation. I'm not talking burn-in - that should have taken care of itself a couple of months back - and I dont have any DBT / ABX testing to confirm my belief, but that's what my brain (!) is telling me at this point in time. All power to those of us who are using their DACs primarily on-the-go, but if you get a chance to plug yours into a USB port and leave it there for a day or two I'd be keen to hear your feedback.


----------



## BobFiggins

I see posts pointing out that the DFR can be too quiet on Android. Is there a solution? Using the Note 7 (Snapdragon). I have two OTG cables and the one the phone comes with, all of which have low volume (is the the phone itself is having an issue providing enough power?). Tried on a laptop and the volume is fine. So the devices seem to be operating fine.
  
 In comparison, the DFB has good volume.
  
 Using Poweramp, Soundcloud, Google Play Music.
  
 Am about to return the DFR, unless someone has a trick to get better volume? Help is much appreciated, thank you!
  
 EDIT: Just realized my laptop has a USB C connection. So the cable's don't seem to have an issue here. Must be a phone or Android issue.


----------



## wwyjoe

Try using the USB Audio Player Pro? With the Hardware Volume control enabled (under 'Settings'), the app plays loud on my Note 7 (Exynos) at 50% volume setting.


----------



## BobFiggins

wwyjoe said:


> Try using the USB Audio Player Pro? With the Hardware Volume control enabled (under 'Settings'), the app plays loud on my Note 7 (Exynos) at 50% volume setting.


 
  
 Would this allow me to use other players such as Google Play Music, and still benefit from the volume?


----------



## west0ne

bobfiggins said:


> Would this allow me to use other players such as Google Play Music, and still benefit from the volume?




No, UAPP takes control of the USB DAC and won't let any other apps access it. You can route certain audio such as Tidal and UPnP but not Google Play.


----------



## slackerpo

bobfiggins said:


> I see posts pointing out that the DFR can be too quiet on Android. Is there a solution? Using the Note 7 (Snapdragon). I have two OTG cables and the one the phone comes with, all of which have low volume (is the the phone itself is having an issue providing enough power?). Tried on a laptop and the volume is fine. So the devices seem to be operating fine.
> 
> In comparison, the DFB has good volume.
> 
> ...




be patient they announced last week that they will release the first firmware update wich will include a fix for the android issues. they said early fall. just stay put.


----------



## west0ne

It will be interesting to see what the fix actually does. At the moment the internal volume of the DFs are set at a fixed point which is below 100% of their capable maximum and Android is unable to take control of the internal hardware volume control; any volume control we have is done by the Android system. I hope that AQ find a fix that provides full control over the internal hardware of the DF but my fear is that they will just set the internal volume control to 100% so that we get maximum output but with all volume control being dealt with by the Android system rather than the DF. Unfortunately AQ haven't actually said how their fix will work.

I personally prefer to set the Android volume to 100% and do all volume control through the DF in the same way as any other DAC/Amp, although in practial terms I'm not sure how much difference it really makes.


----------



## BobFiggins

west0ne said:


> I personally prefer to set the Android volume to 100% and do all volume control through the DF in the same way as any other DAC/Amp, although in practial terms I'm not sure how much difference it really makes.


 
  
 Excuse my lack of knowledge here, but how do I set the volume through the DF? Did I miss something incredibly obvious? I even read the instruction manual but I may have glazed over it. I may be misunderstanding your post.
  
 Tempted to keep the DFR because it sounds so friggen good through the laptop into my 1964 A6. The clarity, punch, and depth is astonishing for this little device. If they can fix it to do this through the phone, definitely worth the $200. Pretty bummed though that the Black got the sweet grippy material. It takes me a solid 10 seconds just to get the cap off of the red, so slippery. Have to use my nails and pry it off slowly.


----------



## west0ne

bobfiggins said:


> Excuse my lack of knowledge here, but how do I set the volume through the DF? Did I miss something incredibly obvious? I even read the instruction manual but I may have glazed over it. I may be misunderstanding your post.
> 
> Tempted to keep the DFR because it sounds so friggen good through the laptop into my 1964 A6. The clarity, punch, and depth is astonishing for this little device. If they can fix it to do this through the phone, definitely worth the $200. Pretty bummed though that the Black got the sweet grippy material. It takes me a solid 10 seconds just to get the cap off of the red, so slippery. Have to use my nails and pry it off slowly.




At the moment with Android you can't set the volume on the DF itself unless using the UAPP app and that is the issue. On Windows/Linux and I believe MacOS/iOS the normal volume controls actually sends the signal to the DF and controls the DF internal volume control, it is done without you knowing.

There is a setting in the UAPP app to adjust the internal hardware volume and if you are on a rooted device you can adjust the internal hardware volume through commandline. Other than that with Android the volume controls on the phone will only change the phone volume not the DF internal hardware volume.


----------



## SpiderNhan

bobfiggins said:


> Excuse my lack of knowledge here, but how do I set the volume through the DF? Did I miss something incredibly obvious? I even read the instruction manual but I may have glazed over it. I may be misunderstanding your post.
> 
> Tempted to keep the DFR because it sounds so friggen good through the laptop into my 1964 A6. The clarity, punch, and depth is astonishing for this little device. If they can fix it to do this through the phone, definitely worth the $200. Pretty bummed though that the Black got the sweet grippy material. It takes me a solid 10 seconds just to get the cap off of the red, so slippery. Have to use my nails and pry it off slowly.


 
 The DFR has its own 64-bit internal volume that gets attenuated when you use software i.e. Poweramp, foobar, Windows, to change it. You can test this by plugging the DFR into a PC or laptop and using Windows to set a volume level from 0-100. After unplugging the DFR and then reconnecting it to the same USB port you'll find that Windows will report the same volume you had set before unplugging.
  
 From how I understand it, the DFR has one true volume output, which is max volume, and all volume control works by subtracting from the max volume. Since the volume control in the DFR is digital, not analog like the DFB, there is no reduction in signal quality or integrity by controlling volume this way since volume is all processed on a digital level.
  
 The problem on Android is that out of a possible 64/64 steps of volume control, Android locks the DFR to 44/64 MAX. It's like if Windows only allowed the DFR to reach 67 out of 100 steps of volume. Some other users have overcome this limitation by rooting their phones and modifying Android's internal script using terminal emulator to allow their Dragonflies to reach full volume potential. I'm speculating that Audioquest's new firmware update will do something similar.
  
 For now the only way to get full control over the DFR's volume is by using USB Audio Player Pro.


----------



## BobFiggins

Sorry to abuse this thread with all of the questions, but is the DFR supposed to sound like the insides are not attached to the casing? It makes a clacky sound when moving it. DFB doesn't do this.
  
 Also, appreciate the responses. I will try out the USB app and try it with my mp3/flac files to see if it works well.
  
 EDIT: Works!


----------



## west0ne

bobfiggins said:


> Sorry to abuse this thread with all of the questions, but is the DFR supposed to sound like the insides are not attached to the casing? It makes a clacky sound when moving it. DFB doesn't do this.
> 
> Also, appreciate the responses. I will try out the USB app and try it with my mp3/flac files to see if it works well.
> 
> EDIT: Works!




The DFR I tried in the HiFi store was solid and didn't rattle around, I'm sure I've seen someone else ask the same question so perhaps there are some QC issues.


----------



## Rscotth

My DFB rattles.  Sound quality doesn't seem to be compromised.  Just been living with it, but will probably return in the near future.  My DFR seems solid for now


----------



## MockingK

Hello everyone, I just got my DFR today and I have been trying to get it to work with Spotify and Poweramp with no success. 
 The only thing that works is UAPP. May I ask how do i set up to get music play through spotify? I researched posts before saying some people works fusslessly. I am using S7edge by the way. 
  
 Thanks for the help please.


----------



## west0ne

@MockingK - with Spotify the DFR works but only with low volume levels. 

If you are getting no volume at all it could be because you have allowed UAPP to 'capture' the DFR and once it has exclusive access you won't get audio through the DFR with any other app. You need to kill the UAPP app/process the DFR will then be accessible to other apps and will play audio, albeit quietly.


----------



## ld100

bobfiggins said:


> Sorry to abuse this thread with all of the questions, but is the DFR supposed to sound like the insides are not attached to the casing? It makes a clacky sound when moving it. DFB doesn't do this.
> 
> Also, appreciate the responses. I will try out the USB app and try it with my mp3/flac files to see if it works well.
> 
> EDIT: Works!




I am in the middle of the exchange of my DFB because it rattles...


----------



## Devodonaldson

bobfiggins said:


> Would this allow me to use other players such as Google Play Music, and still benefit from the volume?



Dfr /dfb analog vs digital volume issue, and the way Android places the volume meter. Currently, Audioquest is working on a fix. The red/black CAN work with Google music, but you need 2 apps. UAPP and Bubble Upnp. Honestly, a but of a pain to need 2 apps, however, the sound quality increase, even on mp3, is worth it. Uapp takes the processing away from android.


----------



## MockingK

＠west0ne 
 Thanks for the suggestions, but I still could not make spotify or poweramp to work. I forced stop UAPP and still could not clear any sort of exclusive access that i think UAPP has. Any idea I can get rid of it?
 I also tried turn up/down volume and still nothing.
 Thanks a lot


----------



## pkcpga

bobfiggins said:


> Sorry to abuse this thread with all of the questions, but is the DFR supposed to sound like the insides are not attached to the casing? It makes a clacky sound when moving it. DFB doesn't do this.
> 
> Also, appreciate the responses. I will try out the USB app and try it with my mp3/flac files to see if it works well.
> 
> EDIT: Works!




Sounds like a manufacturers defect, I returned two broken dfr's, if you like it keep trying to exchange until you get a good one.


----------



## BobFiggins

pkcpga said:


> Sounds like a manufacturers defect, I returned two broken dfr's, if you like it keep trying to exchange until you get a good one.


 
  
 I dislike playing the RMA game, I will probably just live with it. The sound is fine from it.
  
 Just sent the DFB back to Amazon. Was fun to try it, but it's too dark of a match for my A6. Was hoping to send the Red back and keep the Black one because it's cheaper. Though the red's quality just blows it out of the water. I can just wait for them to fix it on Android for now, and use it with my laptop which it sounds perfect on.


----------



## west0ne

I've not opened one up but they're most likely similar to a USB memory stick, if so the board is one piece and the case isn't doing much other than covering the board. The rattling is most likely down to the board and case not being bonded properly. It's unlikely to cause any operational issues.


----------



## Devodonaldson

mockingk said:


> ＠west0ne
> Thanks for the suggestions, but I still could not make spotify or poweramp to work. I forced stop UAPP and still could not clear any sort of exclusive access that i think UAPP has. Any idea I can get rid of it?
> I also tried turn up/down volume and still nothing.
> Thanks a lot


 
You cannot clear it. You have to unplug, then plug the dac back in to give back access to normal android audio drivers


----------



## psikey

Unplug it and when you plug it in again if UAPP pops up a box select no. 
If you set UAPP to yes previously and set it to remember you will need to go into App Manager and clear cachee/data for UAPP

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk


----------



## mtbfan101

I'd like to try this


----------



## bflat

Sorry if this has been asked before - is there anyway to adjust volume in more precise increments using DFR with an iPhone? I'm using the Onkyo HF player. Thanks


----------



## pkcpga

bflat said:


> Sorry if this has been asked before - is there anyway to adjust volume in more precise increments using DFR with an iPhone? I'm using the Onkyo HF player. Thanks



Unfortunately no, iPhone has no volume control apps.


----------



## Pastapipo

rscotth said:


> My DFB rattles.  Sound quality doesn't seem to be compromised.  Just been living with it, but will probably return in the near future.  My DFR seems solid for now


 
  
 My DFB feels rock solid. No rattling of any kind. I would exchange it if I were you.


----------



## SearchOfSub

No rattling here either.


----------



## awgJose

Is anyone using DFB with Sennheiser Momentum 2.0's? I find the headphones lacking some clarity, and I've read that DFB sounds warm compared to DFR, so I'm not sure if it's what I need here. Could even v1.2 be better than DFB for me?


----------



## drummguy26

just ordered my DFR. Will post my impressions once I receive it


----------



## bflat

pkcpga said:


> Unfortunately no, iPhone has no volume control apps.


 

 Thanks. That's too bad. In OS X using Audrivana, the volume steps are a nice 1 dB. At least we know DFR can support it if an app could be created.


----------



## estreeter

awgjose said:


> Is anyone using DFB with Sennheiser Momentum 2.0's? I find the headphones lacking some clarity, and I've read that DFB sounds warm compared to DFR, so I'm not sure if it's what I need here. Could even v1.2 be better than DFB for me?


 
  
 The last thing a 'warm' component will do is add clarity. I use my DFB with my Solo2 over-ears, Shure SE425 and Senn CX5.00g - two v-shaped phones and one with a definite emphasis on the mids - and I enjoy the DFB with all 3 FWIW, All I can suggest re the 1.2 is that you might like to read the Stereophile review linked to a couple of pages back - its unequivocal on the difference between the 1.2 and the Black. If you arent happy with the Momentum 2.0, I'd suggest that your money would be better put towards another pair of cans - Tyll rates the 2.0 very highly and you'll need to spend more money to get the clarity you seek. Its easy to put the cart before the horse here, and I've lost count of the number of folk who go through numerous sources and amps trying to 'fIx' a headphone (K701, HD800, countless Grados). If you want the best headphone under 1K USD, apparently the choice just got a whole lot easier:
  
 http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/enter-next-generation-focal-elear-headphone#DufgUhjAizGFJUGf.97
  
 One man's opinion ? Sure, but he just happens to be one man who has heard virtually every pair of high-end headphones ever made, and one man preparted to spend hours measuring said headphones. Easy for me to spend your money, but I'm sure I'm not the only one who wishes that headphone had been released BEFORE we bought the HD800 and several of the other models Tyll compares the Elear to. Big steo up in price from the Momentum to a 1K headphone, but I can guarantee you'll spend several times that on lesser phones if you've been bitten by this hobby - sorry for your wallet.


----------



## SomeGuyDude

pastapipo said:


> My DFB feels rock solid. No rattling of any kind. I would exchange it if I were you.


 
  
 My old 1.2 rattled like crazy. Basically the plastic housing isn't 100% secured to it so it can get loose. The actual hardware is fine.


----------



## BobFiggins

The rattle on my DFR has gotten a bit worse. Still works fine though. If I exchanged it the next one would probably do the same so I won't let it bother me.
  
 What DOES bother me, is any full-size headphones I use with the DFR it sounds awful. Like the bass is gone, and it's kind of hissy (Like the treble is very prominent). Not like a static/emi sort of issue, I don't think I can explain it well.
  
 Tried it on my laptop (Dell XPS 13) and my home PC, sounds identical.
  
 Is this a faulty device? I've tried the 598, 600, and ATH-Ax1is (awesome $30 headphone btw) and they all sound the same. Yet with my 1964 Ears A6 it sounds amazing, but then again the A6 is a very warm earphone so the DFR combats that part really well.


----------



## bflat

bobfiggins said:


> The rattle on my DFR has gotten a bit worse. Still works fine though. If I exchanged it the next one would probably do the same so I won't let it bother me.
> 
> What DOES bother me, is any full-size headphones I use with the DFR it sounds awful. Like the bass is gone, and it's kind of hissy (Like the treble is very prominent). Not like a static/emi sort of issue, I don't think I can explain it well.
> 
> ...


 

 that rattle can easily be a resistor or inductor that has fallen of the PCB. If so, it may still operate somewhat functionally, but you would be risking shorting if the loose part lands on the wrong place, and/or undesirable effects in specific circumstances. Nothing should be rattling around inside. This is a solid state product with SMT components.


----------



## SearchOfSub

bobfiggins said:


> The rattle on my DFR has gotten a bit worse. Still works fine though. If I exchanged it the next one would probably do the same so I won't let it bother me.
> 
> What DOES bother me, is any full-size headphones I use with the DFR it sounds awful. Like the bass is gone, and it's kind of hissy (Like the treble is very prominent). Not like a static/emi sort of issue, I don't think I can explain it well.
> 
> ...





bass is loose and not as prominent as other dacs (mojo ie) to my lcd 2.2 but it has a more of a overall airy sound from midrange and up. It suits my lcd very well but I have prezor version and it's warm headphone. I definately wouldn't try dfr with hd800 or bright heaephones though.


----------



## pkcpga

bobfiggins said:


> The rattle on my DFR has gotten a bit worse. Still works fine though. If I exchanged it the next one would probably do the same so I won't let it bother me.
> 
> What DOES bother me, is any full-size headphones I use with the DFR it sounds awful. Like the bass is gone, and it's kind of hissy (Like the treble is very prominent). Not like a static/emi sort of issue, I don't think I can explain it well.
> 
> ...




The dfr is very bright with extended highs and not extended in a refined way. It's way to bright for myself, on the hd800, grado gs1000 and Noble savant's the highs sound like they have sharp hollow edge attached to them. Almost metallic sounding harshness. That's why people only recommend the dfr with warm headphones or IEM's.


----------



## drykoke

pkcpga said:


> *That's why people only recommend the dfr with warm headphones or IEM's.*


 
 I think this sort of statement needs to be much more cautious i.e. you are free to speak for yourself, but please don't claim that 'people' generally share the same opinion as you do.
 I have read DFR evaluations by professional reviewers in What HiFi; Stereophile; Hifi News & Record Review.
 Not a single reviewer mentioned bright or harsh. Not a single reviewer recommended pairing only with warm headphones or IEMs.
  
 My personal opinion is similar to that of the Stereophile reviewer - the newer Dragonfly's don't have added richness or resonance in lower bass notes. My impression is that there is no added warmth or euphony (akin to what you might get from a valve based set up) with the DFR.
  
 Some people might like the clean, neutral and accurate presentation. Others might prefer a bit of added warmth and bloom. I'm not going to argue either way, it is all down to personal preference.
  
 I have both bright and not-so-bright headphones and there is no consistent pattern to say which one the DFR works best with. Indeed the bright pair I have works very well with DFR, whereas I have a warm, dull pair that I don't enjoy using with DFR.
  
 So, I don't think it is justifiable to make blanket recommendations that DFR should only be used with warm headphones. Every person has their own choice of meat (or poison).


----------



## pkcpga

drykoke said:


> I think this sort of statement needs to be much more cautious i.e. you are free to speak for yourself, but please don't claim that 'people' generally share the same opinion as you do.
> I have read DFR evaluations by professional reviewers in What HiFi; Stereophile; Hifi News & Record Review.
> Not a single reviewer mentioned bright or harsh. Not a single reviewer recommended pairing only with warm headphones or IEMs.
> 
> ...




Sorry you don't like my opinion but the dfr is no way neutral sounding, it's bright and thin with a metallic sound, my chord Dave is neutral sounding. The mojo is closer to neutral but still a hair warm, for its price the dfr is detailed but not refined sounding and has many manufacturers defects and usability issues with many phones.


----------



## SearchOfSub

It dosent have a metallic sound. The refinement is the same as with Mojo. It's not "thin" in a sense that it's a bad thing, it's "thinner" than some other dacs I suppose, but the good trade off is that general sound becomes airier because it's "thin" sort of speak. Only thing lacking with DFR is the bass imo. Everything else is absolute value for retail price.


----------



## pkcpga

searchofsub said:


> It dosent have a metallic sound. The refinement is the same as with Mojo. It's not "thin" in a sense that it's a bad thing, it's "thinner" than some other dacs I suppose, but the good trade off is that general sound becomes airier because it's "thin" sort of speak. Only thing lacking with DFR is the bass imo. Everything else is absolute value for retail price.




That's your opinion although every reviewer has stated the refinement of the highs, mids and lows and separation of detail is much better on the mojo but should be for its price difference. I was simply agreeing and adding my explanation with the original post on what they also heard in the dfr. If it works for you great it's a great price but it doesn't for others.


----------



## SpiderNhan

My DFR doesn't sound metallic with any of my gear, AKG Q701 and DUNU DN-2000J on the bright end, V-MODA M-100 and XS on the dark end. 

Even when compared head to head with my V-MODA Vamp Verza, a warmer, analog sounding DAC/amp, the main difference I hear is a tiny bit more bass and sub bass with the Verza. If the DFR is bright then the Verza must be equally bright, which in my case is not that bright at all.


----------



## Slaphead

I have to admit that the DFR has some glare in the treble regions which does detract from treble detail, but then again the dynamic presentation of the DFR more than makes up for it (I use mine mostly with the DT1770 Pro)

Personally I think that a lot of people miss the point of the Dragonflys. Its a USB stick that's powered purely by it's host, and in the red form can drive some reasonably demanding headphones. It really is what I would consider to be the ultimate portable DAC/amp at the moment, due it's form factor. However to deliver a product in that form factor is going to require some compromises along the way.

This isn't a be all and end all DAC/amp, and it's certainly no Mojo, but what it is, is a highly portable and effective device for listening to music on the go. It's not something you would buy as an only DAC/amp solution, but more something you would buy as an "on the go" alternative compliment your main system, or if you choose to run high impedence headphones as a portable solution.

I'm actually thinking about picking up 2 or 3 more of these so that I can have one in my bag at all times and the other two connected permanently to headphones that I use for portable duties - that way the DFR and the CCK cable simply become part of the headphone cable. I'm that impressed with it, despite the slight failings in the treble that I've found.


----------



## foreverzer0

slaphead said:


> I have to admit that the DFR has some glare in the treble regions which does detract from treble detail, but then again the dynamic presentation of the DFR more than makes up for it (I use mine mostly with the DT1770 Pro)
> 
> Personally I think that a lot of people miss the point of the Dragonflys. Its a USB stick that's powered purely by it's host, and in the red form can drive some reasonably demanding headphones. It really is what I would consider to be the ultimate portable DAC/amp at the moment, due it's form factor. However to deliver a product in that form factor is going to require some compromises along the way.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Actually, I think it would be good enough to be an all-around dac for many folks that aren't constantly comparing gear. I have an Opus #11 that some claim sounds indistinguishable to the Mojo for IEMs (driving power isn't the same) up for sale because my preference still leans toward the Red for my iPhone (also, because I don't want to charge 2 devices or have it ever run out of juice).


----------



## drykoke

pkcpga said:


> *Sorry you don't like my opinion* but the dfr is no way neutral sounding, it's bright and thin with a metallic sound, my chord Dave is neutral sounding. The mojo is closer to neutral but still a hair warm, for its price the dfr is detailed but not refined sounding and has *many manufacturers defect*s and usability issues with many phones.


 
 Actually, it's not for me to like or dislike your opinion. You are entitled to your opinion that the DFR is harsh and bright (and that Chord Mojo is far superior), and I am not here to change your mind. I just wanted to see the evidence behind the claims that you make because you have made your views obvious on this forum many times:
  
 1) You recommend using the DFR only with warm-sounding headphones and IEMs. Which warm sounding phones have you tried your DFR with, and did the results support your conclusion that DFR is better with that type of headphone?
 2) You make a statement above that DFR has many manufacturer's defects. From your previous posts, you found crackling when using two separate DFRs with your IPhone. How do you know that this is not a problem specific to the interaction between your IPhone and the DFR? Did you use a Windows PC, or Mac, or Android phone and find the same crackling with both DFR?
 Unless you have carried out the full investigation, I think it is difficult to justify a conclusion of many manufacturer's defects. For instance, I have crackling between DFR and a particular Samsung tablet, but DFR works perfectly for me with Windows 10, IPad, and other Android phones. This is an example of specific problem interaction between two components, and not necessarily conclusive of many defects.


----------



## pkcpga

drykoke said:


> Actually, it's not for me to like or dislike your opinion. You are entitled to your opinion that the DFR is harsh and bright (and that Chord Mojo is far superior), and I am not here to change your mind. I just wanted to see the evidence behind the claims that you make because you have made your views obvious on this forum many times:
> 
> 1) You recommend using the DFR only with warm-sounding headphones and IEMs. Which warm sounding phones have you tried your DFR with, and did the results support your conclusion that DFR is better with that type of headphone?
> 2) You make a statement above that DFR has many manufacturer's defects. From your previous posts, you found crackling when using two separate DFRs with your IPhone. How do you know that this is not a problem specific to the interaction between your IPhone and the DFR? Did you use a Windows PC, or Mac, or Android phone and find the same crackling with both DFR?
> Unless you have carried out the full investigation, I think it is difficult to justify a conclusion of many manufacturer's defects. For instance, I have crackling between DFR and a particular Samsung tablet, but DFR works perfectly for me with Windows 10, IPad, and other Android phones. This is an example of specific problem interaction between two components, and not necessarily conclusive of many defects.




The manufactures defects were claimed by the hifi shop I purchased them from, two were tried by myself than tried by them before stating they will be returned with 4 others to audioquest. Some of the returned were for similar as mine some were for rattling noises or lose compents inside. I've purchased a lot through them and they were very apologetic about recent issues since my old df had no issues but sounded nothing special compared to the mojo. Both new dfr's were defective, deemed by dealer.


----------



## brent75

drykoke said:


> I think this sort of statement needs to be much more cautious i.e. you are free to speak for yourself, but please don't claim that 'people' generally share the same opinion as you do.
> I have read DFR evaluations by professional reviewers in What HiFi; Stereophile; Hifi News & Record Review.
> Not a single reviewer mentioned bright or harsh. Not a single reviewer recommended pairing only with warm headphones or IEMs.
> 
> ...


 
  
  Totally agree. He's become a fly in the ointment of this discussion. I'm personally not sure why he keeps hanging around on the DFR thread anyway as he apparently has so many problems with it:

WITHOUT FAIL brings up the Mojo, even though no one is talking about the Mojo
Calls it bright/thin/harsh/unrefined/metallic sounding
Claims people "only" recommend it with certain IEMs and headphones
Says there are "many" manufacturers defects
Proclaims there are usability issues with "many" phones
Did I mention the Mojo? Because if I don't, he certainly will
  
 All in all, it's fine to hold your own opinion -- we all do. But as you pointed out, one can't just throw blanket statements out there and treat them as gospel. It doesn't personally sway me because I know better --- but it sucks for potential newcomers who are doing their due diligence and researching...stumbling across this thread...find his posts...and mistakenly think the DFR is the devil incarnate.


----------



## SomeGuyDude

pkcpga said:


> Sorry you don't like my opinion but the dfr is no way neutral sounding, it's bright and thin with a metallic sound, _*my chord Dave is neutral sounding*_. The mojo is closer to neutral but still a hair warm, for its price the dfr is detailed but not refined sounding and has many manufacturers defects and usability issues with many phones.


 
  
 Are you seriously comparing a $250 USB dongle to a $10,000 DAC??
  
 This is the problem I'm having with this thread. Everyone's slagging on the DFR and comparing it to far more expensive product (peculiarly, always Chord products...) rather than anything in its relative price range. *** if I'm shopping for a DFR I'm probably not gonna be dropping four digits on a Hugo. 
  
 I mean good lord y'all might as well pop into mid-fi headphone threads and tell them they should be buying HE1000's and Focal Utopias.


----------



## foreverzer0

I wonder if they could be paid or have some undisclosed agenda


----------



## pkcpga

foreverzer0 said:


> I wonder if they could be paid or have some undisclosed agenda




No just some one who liked my original df but felt I wasted my time with two defective ones and think the df was a bit over hyped based on paid web/magazine reviews. I'm not alone on defects the past pages alone have at least one person a page stating some sort of defect or usability issue and wether they should keep it or return it.


----------



## SomeGuyDude

pkcpga said:


> No just some one who liked my original df but felt I wasted my time with two defective ones and think the df was a bit over hyped based on payed web/magazine reviews. I'm not alone on defects the past pages alone have at least one person a page stating some sort of defect or usability issue and wether they should keep it or return it.




I'm gonna need a source on "payed reviews" buddy.


----------



## Smileyko

I love both the Dragonfly 1.2 and the newer RED. I am new to Head Fi, bought all my gear this year from reading Head Fi. I just got the Violectric V220 amp two days ago and I am burning in 24 hours a day with the RED. I can tell you after 40 hours none stop this morning the sound is just outstanding. I know, it's NOT the right dac for such an amp but it sounds like heaven to me. Now when I travel this RED is all I take on the road. The RED and the PM2 travels well together. For just $200, what a great deal.


----------



## estreeter

someguydude said:


> I'm gonna need a source on "payed reviews" buddy.


 
  
 And I'm gonna need the address of his English teacher - that man (my assumption - most female academics can spell) really needs to be stopped. If English is his second language, as it is for many Head-Fiers, then I'd suggest that he needs to spend a little more time composing his posts than that effort.
  
 FWIW, I did object to constant OT discussion re '_Mojo vs everything else_' a few pages back, but my objections seem to have been ignored. 6 months in and my DFB just does what its meant to be doing, day in and day out, but I wont compare it with other DACs I've owned/own simply because it's a niche product as pointed out earlier. AQ have delivered two exceptional budget components and all we seem to want to do is tear them down - I'm all for constructive criticism, but we're not talking about 2K+ electronics here.
  
 Edit : for those wondering what else you can get under 100USD, I can recommend the Topping NX2, but as a DAC it's little better than the chip in my laptop. You are very unlikely to get DFB-level sonics from anything else at this pricepoint - always happy to hear otherwise.


----------



## SearchOfSub

smileyko said:


> I love both the Dragonfly 1.2 and the newer RED. I am new to Head Fi, bought all my gear this year from reading Head Fi. I just got the Violectric V220 amp two days ago and I am burning in 24 hours a day with the RED. I can tell you after 40 hours none stop this morning the sound is just outstanding. I know, it's NOT the right dac for such an amp but it sounds like heaven to me. Now when I travel this RED is all I take on the road. The RED and the PM2 travels well together. For just $200, what a great deal.





Hello SmileyKo, what do you think of the sound differences between DFR vs. Mojo and which do you prefer?


----------



## canali

someguydude said:


> Are you seriously comparing a $250 USB dongle to a $10,000 DAC??
> 
> This is the problem I'm having with this thread. Everyone's slagging on the DFR and comparing it to far more expensive product (peculiarly, always Chord products...) rather than anything in its relative price range. *** if I'm shopping for a DFR I'm probably not gonna be dropping four digits on a Hugo.
> 
> I mean good lord y'all might as well pop into mid-fi headphone threads and tell them they should be buying HE1000's and Focal Utopias.


 

 good catch...much akin to comparing a honda civic Sir or even type R to a Ferrari or Lambo (What!)
 while  honda both civic series get fab reviews as being very fun to drive, sports tuned cars,  and offering great bang for the buck (etc) it's hardly fair comparisons against a ferrari or lambo.
  
 anyway, I love my little df red for what it does...use it all the time out and about...keeps me fit by being truly portable for walking around, hooked up to my ipod touch 6.
 once I get the mojo extender (and a small pocket camera carrying case) I'll be swapping things around to experiment.


----------



## Smileyko

searchofsub said:


> Hello SmileyKo, what do you think of the sound differences between DFR vs. Mojo and which do you prefer?


 
 I and many here do love the RED since it's got great bang for the bucks. Travels well never needs charging! Now of course at 3 times the price comes the Mojo. Now that's a all together different sounding world out there with the Mojo. They both will do different things for different folks. Now the sound? Hmmmmmmmm........ It's the MOJO baby. Cheers.


----------



## estreeter

Having spent enough time with the DFB hooked up to the Pi3, I came to the conclusion that I do get better sound from the USB ports on my laptop - the Pi is about the same as the SQ from my Lenovo tablet via OTG. As much as I hate to admit it, Roon has the best SQ of any playback software I've used - the 'bits is bits' argument just goes out the window IME. The prospect of being able to use the Pi as a Roon endpoint is tempting - I'm just wary of spending money on the HiFiBerry i2S DAC when I doubt that the chip will give me a better result than the DFB from my laptop.
  
 Hans Beekhuyzen has spent a lot of time looking at different options - hardware and software - but _as this isnt a thread about the Pi_ I'll leave you with his thoughts on the DF Black and Red. Those interested in his Pi music player vids can find them on his channel.


----------



## brent75

Totally agree - I love the sound of Roon.


----------



## Mboom

Looking at getting the dragonfly black 1.5 for my Nexus 6, along with some portapros and sennheiser hd600. Will the hd600 be powered sufficiently ? How's the compatibility with Google music ?


----------



## slackerpo

mboom said:


> Looking at getting the dragonfly black 1.5 for my Nexus 6, along with some portapros and sennheiser hd600. Will the hd600 be powered sufficiently ? How's the compatibility with Google music ?


 
  
 not until they release the firmware update. i use google play, and the DFR barely pulled my um 30 pro through, i had the 600 and 650 at hand and it was a no go. just hold on till the update goes live.
  
 unless you wanna use it with UAPP.


----------



## west0ne

mboom said:


> Looking at getting the dragonfly black 1.5 for my Nexus 6, along with some portapros and sennheiser hd600. Will the hd600 be powered sufficiently ? How's the compatibility with Google music ?




Don't know about the HD600 but the DFB will power the portapro OK even with volume issues on Android. I am using the portapro with DFB and S7E and that's with apps other than UAPP.


----------



## west0ne

@estreeter- have you set up your DFB as the default audio device in the alsa configuration file, I seem to recall having to change the (~/.asoundrc) file to make the USB DAC default. If you start alsamixer does it show the DFB as the default device. Have you tried using Jack audio to run the DFB.


----------



## Wilderness

someguydude said:


> Are you seriously comparing a $250 USB dongle to a $10,000 DAC??
> 
> This is the problem I'm having with this thread. Everyone's slagging on the DFR and comparing it to far more expensive product (peculiarly, always Chord products...) rather than anything in its relative price range. *** if I'm shopping for a DFR I'm probably not gonna be dropping four digits on a Hugo.
> 
> I mean good lord y'all might as well pop into mid-fi headphone threads and tell them they should be buying HE1000's and Focal Utopias.


 

 I have the Dragonfly Red as my desktop DAC for my PSB speakers and an SVS sub.  I am very pleased with this DAC's sound quality and ease of use.
  
 I am confident that the Mojo must be a great sounding DAC, better than the DR in most respects, but it seems to have some drawbacks that the Dragonfly does not have:
  
 1) The Mojo is too big for a portable DAC for some people, including me.  No way would I carry around something so big for headphones or keep in my car for my car's audio system.  The Dragonfly, however, is just the right size for portable and car audio system use.
  
 2) Some users have reported that the Mojo emits unwanted sound while charging and playing at the same time on a desktop system.  Apparently there are chargers available that negate this problem, but still.... The Dragonfly, however, never needs charging and so this is a nonissue with the DR.
  
 3) Volume with some (not all) computer applications is degraded when using the app's volume control instead of the Mojo's.  That eliminates any chance I would get the Mojo.  Again, not a problem with the Dragonfly with desktop systems.
  
 See the Mojo FAQ on this site for information about problems and some solutions.
  
 I am open to the possibility of getting a different DAC for my desktop system because I want the best sound I can afford. So, if there is a better DAC for computer use that costs less than $1,500 I am interested, but it would have to be a set it and forget it kind of DAC like the Dragonfly and it would need 3.5 mm output.  I don't want to have to fiddle with it or push any buttons to get it to turn on or charge or adjust the volume, etc.  The Red's ease of use has spoiled me and I will never want to give that up.  And the sound would have to be significantly better than what I am getting from the Red with my system.
  
 For me, the $200 Dragonfly Red matches well with my speakers and sub, which cost $1,000 combined.  For folks with more expensive speakers, a more expensive DAC would make for a better match.


----------



## foreverzer0

Default safe answer: any multibit offering from schiit


----------



## waynes world

estreeter said:


> Edit : for those wondering what else you can get under 100USD, I can recommend the Topping NX2, but as a DAC it's little better than the chip in my laptop. You are very unlikely to get DFB-level sonics from anything else at this pricepoint - always happy to hear otherwise.




ZuperDAC.


----------



## Xaborus

Hello all!
  
 I just received a Dragonfly Red and although it sounds fantastic, I'm having a really odd problem with it.
  
 While playing music it will intermittently produce digital sounds. What i mean by this is obvious digital problems, I'm not talking about making the music sound bad, but producing totally obvious and loud digital distortion. It sounds almost like a 16-bit videogame version of paper ripping.
  
 So far I haven't isolated it down if it is a problem with my Dragonfly, or if its a problem with the laptop I'm using my dragonfly with.
  
 When it gets really bad (happening 2-3x a minute) restarting the computer will usually stop the problem, but I just kept the dragonfly running after restarting my computer and it worked flawlessly for an hour; then i left and came back 7 hours later and it started doing it again.
  
  
 Does anybody have any technical expertise on IF this can be a problem with my computer's USB output, or is it my dragonfly?
  
 Audio straight though the built-in laptop speakers don't have this problem, and i haven't experienced this problem with my ODAC.


----------



## psikey

All I can add is that I listen hours at work on my business desktop and also on my XPS13 laptop and not experienced anything other than great sound. 

Do you get same issue played via another PC or connected to a smartphone?

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


----------



## brent75

xaborus said:


> Hello all!
> 
> I just received a Dragonfly Red and although it sounds fantastic, I'm having a really odd problem with it.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I get a similar sound if I have Roon open and I start watching videos on YouTube. It's like a crazy digital static grating noise. What fixes it is either changing the YouTube video to HQ, or quitting Roon. I have no idea what the "formula" is that causes that sound.


----------



## estreeter

west0ne said:


> @estreeter- have you set up your DFB as the default audio device in the alsa configuration file, I seem to recall having to change the (~/.asoundrc) file to make the USB DAC default. If you start alsamixer does it show the DFB as the default device. Have you tried using Jack audio to run the DFB.


 
  
 I have the GUI 'Sound' applet to change my default device - took a bit of digging but once I got it sorted, everything was gold. asoundrc seems to send VLC and other apps into a bit of a tailspin - not sure what's going on there. RuneAudio on the Pi allows you to change the default device via the web interface, but you have to dig through the Linux forums to find a *command line mechanism* for changing the default audio 'sink' to your DAC.
  
 $ aplay -l
 **** List of PLAYBACK Hardware Devices ****
 card 0: PCH [HDA Intel PCH], device 0: ALC283 Analog [ALC283 Analog]
   Subdevices: 0/1
   Subdevice #0: subdevice #0
 card 0: PCH [HDA Intel PCH], device 3: HDMI 0 [HDMI 0]
   Subdevices: 1/1
   Subdevice #0: subdevice #0
*card 1*: v15 [AudioQuest DragonFly Black v1.5], *device 0*: USB Audio [USB Audio]
   Subdevices: 1/1
   Subdevice #0: subdevice #0
  
 MPD fans will recognise the DFB as 'hw:1,0' based on ALSA's card/device IDs and it seems to respond equally well to 'hw:1'. I havent tried JACK - Pulseaudio is painful enough for now. I found a utility ('ponymix') to make it easier to identify the sink I need to activate.
  
 $ ponymix list | grep output | grep -v monitor
 sink 0: alsa_output.pci-0000_00_1b.0.analog-stereo
*sink 1: alsa_output.usb-AudioQuest_AudioQuest_DragonFly_Black_v1.5_AQDFBL0100102730-01.analog-stereo*
  
 All of that leads me to the Pulseaudio command I need to ensure that audio is routed to the DFB:
  
*$ pacmd set-default-sink 1*
  
 Looking at the above, it all seems so blindingly simple, but you can spend a very long time trawling rhrough all sorts of misinformation just to get to that point. I doubt that I'm the only one who finds the whole ALSA / Pulse / gstreamer melange intimidating, particularly when all I want to do is listen to music. I'm not afraid of the *nix command line - far from it - but I loathe wading through doco looking for one simple command. Apologies to my fellow Head-Fiers for taking this thread slightly OT - hopefully this post might save someone else hours of digging through ALSA doco when the answer is nowhere to be found there.


----------



## estreeter

waynes world said:


> ZuperDAC.


 
  
 Not having heard the ZuperDAC, I'll have to take your word for it. If I do buy another portable dac/amp, I definitely want one with a hardware volume control, but right now my focus is on other gear and the distractions posed by the dreaded real world


----------



## waynes world

estreeter said:


> Not having heard the ZuperDAC, I'll have to take your word for it. If I do buy another portable dac/amp, I definitely want one with a hardware volume control, but right now my focus is on other gear and the distractions posed by the dreaded real world


 
  
 Don't ever let the real world get in the way lol! 
  
 I haven't heard the DFB, so I have to take the word of people who have compared both (for example). But I'd be very surprised if the zuperdac doesn't compare quite favorably - I have only read positive reviews about it, and it sounds stellar to my ears with all of my gear. Anyway, it's great having so many reasonably priced yet awesome dacs to choose from these days


----------



## SpiderNhan

Is there anywhere I can purchase a Zuperdac? The only link I can find is to an Indiegogo page that no longer exists.


----------



## waynes world

spidernhan said:


> Is there anywhere I can purchase a Zuperdac? The only link I can find is to an Indiegogo page that no longer exists.


 


Spoiler: Warning: OT...



Normally here:
 http://www.zorloo.com/#!-zorloo/c1aa
  
 But they say this:


> *NOTICES*: We have temporary run out of ZuperDAC inventory and are arranging production now.  We hope to get ZuperDAC ready by md to end September.  In the mean time, we have some refurbish units available, please leave a message to us if you are interested.


 
  
 One of mine is a refurbished unit and it works perfectly, so that's an option.


----------



## Xaborus

Its good to know that I'm not the only one having this issue!
  
 I'm going to get into contact with Audioquest and post an update here on if this is a known issue.


----------



## Pastapipo

waynes world said:


> Don't ever let the real world get in the way lol!
> 
> I haven't heard the DFB, so I have to take the word of people who have compared both (for example). But I'd be very surprised if the zuperdac doesn't compare quite favorably - I have only read positive reviews about it, and it sounds stellar to my ears with all of my gear. Anyway, it's great having so many reasonably priced yet awesome dacs to choose from these days


 
  
  
 It is indeed just a single opinion, more are needed for a reliable representation. Still, I stand with my opinion that the ZuperDAC does sound noticeably better than the DFB.
 Not that the DFB does sound bad in any way, but the ZuperDAC is more layered and has a better soundstage to my ears. 
 The DFB does add a touch of bass, which is quite favourable in bright IEMs like the Vivo XE800. They pair excellently. In all other cases, I prefer the ZuperDAC.


----------



## drummguy26

so I've read quite a few posts saying that DFB is not as refined or clear as the DFR, which I guess is true (haven't heard either of them at the moment, but my DFR is on its way ). But comparing the DFB to the regular audio coming out of the iphone 6, would one say that it has more clarity/refinement than that? Remember, Im coming from nothing and have no idea what to expect once my DFR comes in, but Im just curious as to what the performance differences are in the opinions of the people on this thread with the DFB and DFR compared to the iphone 6 audio.


----------



## foreverzer0

drummguy26 said:


> so I've read quite a few posts saying that DFB is not as refined or clear as the DFR, which I guess is true (haven't heard either of them at the moment, but my DFR is on its way ). But comparing the DFB to the regular audio coming out of the iphone 6, would one say that it has more clarity/refinement than that? Remember, Im coming from nothing and have no idea what to expect once my DFR comes in, but Im just curious as to what the performance differences are in the opinions of the people on this thread with the DFB and DFR compared to the iphone 6 audio.


 
  
 I would say it's preference and where you're at in your audio journey. For average consumers with IEMs, I would recommend the black due to it being warmer and bassy with laid back treble which makes it really easy to listen to. Also, the differences I hear are a lot less if you're using it as a DAC only. For full sized headphones that require more power, maybe step it up to the Red.
  
 I did a longer comparison along with a few other dacs in another thread here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/816199/audio-opus-opus-11/30#post_12814284


----------



## Pastapipo

drummguy26 said:


> so I've read quite a few posts saying that DFB is not as refined or clear as the DFR, which I guess is true (haven't heard either of them at the moment, but my DFR is on its way ). But comparing the DFB to the regular audio coming out of the iphone 6, would one say that it has more clarity/refinement than that? Remember, Im coming from nothing and have no idea what to expect once my DFR comes in, but Im just curious as to what the performance differences are in the opinions of the people on this thread with the DFB and DFR compared to the iphone 6 audio.


 
  
 I do not own any Apple products, but from the DFB sounds significantly better than all my android phones and my laptop.
 The sound is much more dynamic and clear.


----------



## drummguy26

foreverzer0 said:


> I would say it's preference and where you're at in your audio journey. For average consumers with IEMs, I would recommend the black due to it being warmer and bassy with laid back treble which makes it really easy to listen to. Also, the differences I hear are a lot less if you're using it as a DAC only. For full sized headphones that require more power, maybe step it up to the Red.
> 
> I did a longer comparison along with a few other dacs in another thread here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/816199/audio-opus-opus-11/30#post_12814284







pastapipo said:


> I do not own any Apple products, but from the DFB sounds significantly better than all my android phones and my laptop.
> The sound is much more dynamic and clear.





Thanks for your replies guys! I already have the DFR on the way, so once I save up $100, I'll just buy the Black too =) and good comparison foreverzero. It was a good read through


----------



## drummguy26

Just got my DFR. Listening to it with Tidal. So far I'm impressed with its sound quality. And I can only imagine how much better it's gonna get with burn in. =)

But quick question, the color on my DFR is green with Tidal on HiFi settings. Is it possible to get magenta color with tidal?


----------



## pkcpga

drummguy26 said:


> Just got my DFR. Listening to it with Tidal. So far I'm impressed with its sound quality. And I can only imagine how much better it's gonna get with burn in. =)
> 
> But quick question, the color on my DFR is green with Tidal on HiFi settings. Is it possible to get magenta color with tidal?



Tidal hifi is only cd lossless right now, supposably Mqa will be available at some point. But there are no streaming hi res right now, the songs must be downloaded first.


----------



## Devodonaldson

drummguy26 said:


> Just got my DFR. Listening to it with Tidal. So far I'm impressed with its sound quality. And I can only imagine how much better it's gonna get with burn in. =)
> 
> But quick question, the color on my DFR is green with Tidal on HiFi settings. Is it possible to get magenta color with tidal?



Tidal hi-fi plays at 16/44.1. Green is the color you want as that is what is being played. Anything would be up sampling which can create it's own issues


----------



## estreeter

drummguy26 said:


> Just got my DFR. Listening to it with Tidal. So far I'm impressed with its sound quality. And I can only imagine how much better it's gonna get with burn in. =)
> 
> But quick question, the color on my DFR is green with Tidal on HiFi settings. Is it possible to get magenta color with tidal?


 
  
  
 Be happy - as others have pointed out, you are getting Rodbook quality from a streaming service. Technically, you are getting *24/44.1* via the DFR and you could set your OS to upsample _everything_ to 24/96 (magenta) but it would serve no worthwhile purpose. MQA is a giant ant's nest for mine - I liked the few sample files that are available on the 2L site, but until I see evidence that the music I have has been 'revisited' using the relevant ADC and released as a certified MQA download, its not something I'm prepared to spend money on.
  
 FWIW, this is one of the few 24/96 downloads I own that I would be prepared to say is an improvement on their Redbook efforts, but it was pointed out to me that the sound quality is likely to be more around the care taken in the recording process by people who knew this would be an 'audiophile' download than the format. Whatever - it was beautifully recorded, especially the strings on Illumination Theory. This is the only HDTracks album where I was sufficiently confident in the providence to part with my cash for the download.
  
 http://www.hdtracks.com/dream-theater
  
 http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/music/1013/rock/dream_theater_dream_theater.htm
  
 Edit : just to clarify the '24/44.1' reference, _you wont get anything near 24-bits resolution from Redbook or the DT download _- it's a reference to the fact that the current DF models operate at 24-bits natively.


----------



## pkcpga

estreeter said:


> Be happy - as others have pointed out, you are getting Rodbook quality from a streaming service. Technically, you are getting *24/44.1* via the DFR and you could set your OS to upsample _everything_ to 24/96 (magenta) but it would serve no worthwhile purpose. MQA is a giant ant's nest for mine - I liked the few sample files that are available on the 2L site, but until I see evidence that the music I have has been 'revisited' using the relevant ADC and released as a certified MQA download, its not something I'm prepared to spend money on.
> 
> FWIW, this is one of the few 24/96 downloads I own that I would be prepared to say is an improvement on their Redbook efforts, but it was pointed out to me that the sound quality is likely to be more around the care taken in the recording process by people who knew this would be an 'audiophile' download than the format. Whatever - it was beautifully recorded, especially the strings on Illumination Theory. This is the only HDTracks album where I was sufficiently confident in the providence to part with my cash for the download.
> 
> ...




I'm in the air about Mqa as well, the first 30 or so songs available have been very good but they were mostly recorded in Mqa originally. So it'll be interesting to hear more remastered Mqa songs.


----------



## randomdude

Hi Head Fiers

I have back read most of the replies on this thread but I am still on the fence on buying the black or red.

To give you the current source that I use to play music I have the iphone 6s plus, Ipad Air 2, DX90 and MSI Laptop. So far from the 4 sources I rank them from best to good DX90 > MSI Laptop > Ipad Air 2 and Iphone 6s plus.

I use the Sony MDR Z7 as my main headphones which is 70 ohms. When I use the ios out I barely hear any bass and some of the details are lost. I do not know if this is because the headphone needs amping of if is the quality of the dac.

My question for anyone who listened to both dx90 SQ and DFR DFB SQ will there be a huge SQ difference in DFR vs dx90? How about DFB vs dx90? I love using the dx90 dac/dap in my PC but there is lag if I use it as a dac.

I am still on the fence if the SQ would be better with dragonfly. Still having a debate whether to get the DFR/DFB now or save for a chord MOJO if the difference is not huge.


----------



## drummguy26

So after spending a few hours listening to the DFR and comparing it with the sound coming out of my iPhone (it's all I have to a/b it) I can safely say that the DFR is a significant upgrade from the iPhone itself in its own right. I can definitely see where a lot of people are coming from when they say things like the DFR is bright, has better refinement, looser bass, etc. The musical separation, clarity and cleanliness is definitely its strong point. Now whether I'd say the DFR is too bright, I don't think that's an accurate description of what's really going on here. To me it feels that the treble is simply better represented, much cleaner and clearer and is smoothed out for a very lushious feel and taste. I love how the DFR handles the highs. The only thing that has been bugging me is that the impact of the bass seems to be lessened... Not saying it's totally gone because that's not true. It's still there, but just doesn't have as much impact as it did before. The bass is good quality for sure, but I hope this is one of those things (impact/depth) that'll tighten up and become more prominent as the DFR burns in.

And I'm thinking the only way I can get my tight punchy bass fix is to just go ahead and buy the Black too and just switch out between the Red for whatever I'm in the mood for. Get the best of both worlds. =)


----------



## SomeGuyDude

I've long since learned to stop paying attention to buzzwords in descriptions because I swear depending on who you talk to and what imperfection they were hoping to fix, burn-in or new cables or a better amp/DAC will ALWAYS fix it.Every single one will have someone saying it makes the bass more refined but also somehow more impactful,  the highs will be clearer but also less shrill, the soundstage is better and the imagining is more accurate, mids are usually more "lush", etc etc etc.
  
 To my ears, yes, the DFR is basically a "cleaner" output. Maybe it IS a touch bright, but I have bassy headphones so it mixes well. It's a permanent fixture on my work laptop (tube amp at home).


----------



## randomdude

someguydude said:


> I've long since learned to stop paying attention to buzzwords in descriptions because I swear depending on who you talk to and what imperfection they were hoping to fix, burn-in or new cables or a better amp/DAC will ALWAYS fix it.Every single one will have someone saying it makes the bass more refined but also somehow more impactful,  the highs will be clearer but also less shrill, the soundstage is better and the imagining is more accurate, mids are usually more "lush", etc etc etc.
> 
> To my ears, yes, the DFR is basically a "cleaner" output. Maybe it IS a touch bright, but I have bassy headphones so it mixes well. It's a permanent fixture on my work laptop (tube amp at home).




I have the sony mdr z7 headphones. It is quite bassy and the mids felt like they are being covered a bit by the bass. Ill try to get the red one via amazon and compare it with my dx90.


----------



## drummguy26

So just curious... For those who have gone through the burn in period with the DFR, what kind of differences are there before and after burn in? Im talking about comparing from initial out of the box use to anything greater than 30 or so hours of use. Just trying to get a handle on what to expect as I keep listening to the DFR.


----------



## brent75

drummguy26 said:


> So just curious... For those who have gone through the burn in period with the DFR, what kind of differences are there before and after burn in? Im talking about comparing from initial out of the box use to anything greater than 30 or so hours of use. Just trying to get a handle on what to expect as I keep listening to the DFR.


 
 I found that right out of the box, music was definitely louder and slightly better in clarity.
  
 After I let it run for about 2 days straight, that's when the instruments and vocals really seemed to separate. It was no longer a wall of sound...but more like hearing the individual instruments in the band playing alongside each other. Definitely made it more fun to listen to everything.


----------



## drummguy26

brent75 said:


> I found that right out of the box, music was definitely louder and slightly better in clarity.
> 
> After I let it run for about 2 days straight, that's when the instruments and vocals really seemed to separate. It was no longer a wall of sound...but more like hearing the individual instruments in the band playing alongside each other. Definitely made it more fun to listen to everything.


 
  
 That's actually a very good description out of the box. Wall of Sound... lol. That's how I would describe it out of the box too. Well Im looking forward to better musical separation as time goes on. I also ordered the DFB (couldn't resist since its a steal at $100) so I'll be comparing both of them together once they're both sufficiently burned in.


----------



## niic

I just picked up the Black and have plugged it into my MacBook Pro. While I like the sound, it is ridiculously loud through all my headphones and IEMs. Does anyone else have this problem? It's too loud even at the lowest regular volume setting in Mac OS. Is there a way to use the Dragonfly's internal volume control on the Mac (or is this not the problem)?


----------



## foreverzer0

niic said:


> I just picked up the Black and have plugged it into my MacBook Pro. While I like the sound, it is ridiculously loud through all my headphones and IEMs. Does anyone else have this problem? It's too loud even at the lowest regular volume setting in Mac OS.


 
  
 Never had this issue with either black or red, on OSX El Capitan or MacOS Sierra Beta. Across two different Macbook Pro's (15" retina 2013 and 13" retina 2014). Also tried IEMs and full sized.


----------



## drummguy26

canali said:


> yes Audioquest even says to 'burn it in' for 24 hrs:
> 
> http://www.audioquest.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Phase-Noise-Jitter-Report-0317-14.pdf
> 
> ...


 
  
 So a little curious about the 24-hour burn in period. Does this need to be done all at once or continuously from the get go? Or does listening to it here and there for a total of 24 hrs of listening time will accomplish the same thing?


----------



## maltronics

niic said:


> I just picked up the Black and have plugged it into my MacBook Pro. While I like the sound, it is ridiculously loud through all my headphones and IEMs. Does anyone else have this problem? It's too loud even at the lowest regular volume setting in Mac OS. Is there a way to use the Dragonfly's internal volume control on the Mac (or is this not the problem)?


 
 niic, Are you using the MacBook's fine volume adjustment: *Shift + alt (option) + F11/F12 volume keys?*
  
*​*


----------



## niic

foreverzer0 said:


> Never had this issue with either black or red, on OSX El Capitan or MacOS Sierra Beta. Across two different Macbook Pro's (15" retina 2013 and 13" retina 2014). Also tried IEMs and full sized.




Thanks for the reference! It's weird, because I would expect the DragonFly Black to approximate the volume controls on my Mac, but instead it feels like I can only switch from mute to full power in the space of just 1 press on volume up (even in Audirvana Plus).

Could it be that I am missing a setting on my MacBook Pro (late 2013, 13 inch retina running on El Capitan)?


----------



## foreverzer0

niic said:


> Thanks for the reference! It's weird, because I would expect the DragonFly Black to approximate the volume controls on my Mac, but instead it feels like I can only switch from mute to full power in the space of just 1 press on volume up (even in Audirvana Plus).
> 
> Could it be that I am missing a setting on my MacBook Pro (late 2013, 13 inch retina running on El Capitan)?


 
 You might want to reach out to AudioQuest. It was plug and play for me, as it was designed to do.


----------



## VRacer-111

drummguy26 said:


> So after spending a few hours listening to the DFR and comparing it with the sound coming out of my iPhone (it's all I have to a/b it) I can safely say that the DFR is a significant upgrade from the iPhone itself in its own right. I can definitely see where a lot of people are coming from when they say things like the DFR is bright, has better refinement, looser bass, etc. The musical separation, clarity and cleanliness is definitely its strong point. Now whether I'd say the DFR is too bright, I don't think that's an accurate description of what's really going on here. To me it feels that the treble is simply better represented, much cleaner and clearer and is smoothed out for a very lushious feel and taste. I love how the DFR handles the highs. The only thing that has been bugging me is that the impact of the bass seems to be lessened... Not saying it's totally gone because that's not true. It's still there, but just doesn't have as much impact as it did before. The bass is good quality for sure, but I hope this is one of those things (impact/depth) that'll tighten up and become more prominent as the DFR burns in.
> 
> And I'm thinking the only way I can get my tight punchy bass fix is to just go ahead and buy the Black too and just switch out between the Red for whatever I'm in the mood for. Get the best of both worlds. =)




Don't have an iDevice that can use the DFR, but the bass impact on both my Galaxy TAB S2 and windows laptop is improved over the default from headphone out. The DFR + TH-X00 Purpleheart combo = insanely tight and hard hitting bass, absolutely whips my HT system into shame... because my subs are tiny 10"....sigh...


----------



## drummguy26

vracer-111 said:


> Don't have an iDevice that can use the DFR, but the bass impact on both my Galaxy TAB S2 and windows laptop is improved over the default from headphone out. The DFR + TH-X00 Purpleheart combo = insanely tight and hard hitting bass, absolutely whips my HT system into shame... because my subs are tiny 10"....sigh...




Yea. Now that I'm listening to it more and more, I'm noticing that the DFR is getting more relaxed and showcasing deeper bass and crispier everything else. Guess this is it "warming up".


----------



## brent75

drummguy26 said:


> Yea. Now that I'm listening to it more and more, I'm noticing that the DFR is getting more relaxed and showcasing deeper bass and crispier everything else. Guess this is it "warming up".




Right now you're listening "for" it -- conscientiously paying attention in the hopes of hearing any improvement in sound. It's totally natural with new gear.

The best is when you finally relax and listen "to" it -- just enjoying the music and no longer seeking out tracks just to hunt for soundstage/clarity/separation/etc.

It'll come!


----------



## SearchOfSub

anyone notice there is always more distortion in sound with 100 percent volume with music softwares like tidal, iTunes etc. I always get better sound with 95 percent never 100.


----------



## estreeter

someguydude said:


> I've long since learned to stop paying attention to buzzwords in descriptions because I swear depending on who you talk to and what imperfection they were hoping to fix, burn-in or new cables or a better amp/DAC will ALWAYS fix it.Every single one will have someone saying it makes the bass more refined but also somehow more impactful,  the highs will be clearer but also less shrill, the soundstage is better and the imagining is more accurate, mids are usually more "lush", etc etc etc.
> 
> To my ears, yes, the DFR is basically a "cleaner" output. Maybe it IS a touch bright, but I have bassy headphones so it mixes well. It's a permanent fixture on my work laptop (tube amp at home).




I imagine that my 'imagining' will ALWAYS be accurate 

If I wanted to be Mr Serious Audiophile, I could pick the DFB apart - the imaging, detail resolution and instrument separation aren't up to the standard of more expensive DACs I've owned - but for me it does precisely what I wanted : improves on my other sources for very little financial outlay. Most importantly, it lets me turn Mr Critical Listener off on many tracks and just enjoy the music - surely that's the reason most of us got into this obsession, er,_ hobby _in the first place ? If the ZuperDAC or the ACME 5000 is better / cheaper / sexier, that's a GOOD thing - it means that manufacturers got the memo that we arent all prepared to hand over 500USD every time they want to slap a new acronym on their packaging.


----------



## randomdude

randomdude said:


> Hi Head Fiers
> 
> I have back read most of the replies on this thread but I am still on the fence on buying the black or red.
> 
> ...





 Just got the dragonfly red. 3 hours after testing the dragonfly dac using tidal and iphone music as source. I also used onkyo hd player to play my cd ripped files. Sony MDR Z7 as my headphones.

 I tried it vs the dx90 dac and DFR is actually brighter. The bass on the dx90 somewhat overlaps with the mid. The DFR actually lifts the mid so I can now actually hear it better like a veil has been lifted. Other than that I did not hear any huge difference between the two in terms of SQ. They are both actually good.

Versus the computer realtek hd dac the bass would actually shake on the song I Ab at the same volume but noticed it was a bit distorted compared to the DFR.


----------



## estreeter

I basically gave up on my issues with DFB volume control on Windows and installed Equalizer APO, a system-wide equalizer that I'm hoping isnt doing more harm than good - I normally try to avoid software equalization where possible. It seems a bit primitive making the changes via a config file instead of a GUI, but I was being bushwhacked by Youtube vids and some of my own music. I now have a lot more headroom with the volume control - similar to what I have in Linux FWIW. 

*Preamp: -24 dB*
Include: example.txt
GraphicEQ: 25 0; 40 0; 63 0; 100 0; 160 0; 250 0; 400 0; 630 0; 1000 0; 1600 0; 2500 0; 4000 0; 

6300 0; 10000 0; 16000 0


----------



## niic

maltronics said:


> niic, Are you using the MacBook's fine volume adjustment: *Shift + alt (option) + F11/F12 volume keys?*
> 
> *​*



Thanks maltronics, that helped me quite a bit! I might still go back to the store where I bought the DFB to compare it to another unit. To check if this is just the way the DFB is designed, or that it is my unit specifically that is very loud.


----------



## west0ne

estreeter said:


> I basically gave up on my issues with DFB volume control on Windows and installed Equalizer APO, a system-wide equalizer that I'm hoping isnt doing more harm than good - I normally try to avoid software equalization where possible. It seems a bit primitive making the changes via a config file instead of a GUI, but I was being bushwhacked by Youtube vids and some of my own music. I now have a lot more headroom with the volume control - similar to what I have in Linux FWIW.
> 
> *Preamp: -24 dB*
> Include: example.txt
> ...




Have you tried using the 'Peace' GUI for Equalizer APO, it seems fairly comprehensive in terms of providing a GUI front end.


----------



## drykoke

Hifi-Plus magazine have just reviewed both DFB and DFR.
 http://www.hifiplus.com/articles/audioquest-dragonfly-red-and-dragonfly-black-dacs/
  
 Well worth a read for those who are still worried whether DFR is different from DFB.
  
 Also worth a read for those who are wondering how DFR compares to more expensive equipment.
 Although the reviewer does not name any names, he was pleasantly surprised with the results from DFR when compared to a battery-powered DAC that cost more than twice the price.
 He concluded that DFR gives pricier competition something to worry about (although it does acknowledge in the article that the more expensive DAC had superior bass).


----------



## SearchOfSub

I'm telling you IMO the DFR is the current best value in market. Mojo was before DFR came out. I have both so I can say.


----------



## drummguy26

searchofsub said:


> I'm telling you IMO the DFR is the current best value in market. Mojo was before DFR came out. I have both so I can say.


 

 And to be truthfully honest, no BS, DFR + jitterbug (yes even for smartphones) makes a significant difference in making it even better. I've swapped back and forth between them multiple times on my phone and there's an added smoothness + control with the jitterbug that's just not there without it.
  
 Well... one can say its just a moderate difference rather than "significant", but regardless, its worth it to me.


----------



## SearchOfSub

drummguy26 said:


> And to be truthfully honest, no BS, DFR + jitterbug (yes even for smartphones) makes a significant difference in making it even better. I've swapped back and forth between them multiple times on my phone and there's an added smoothness + control with the jitterbug that's just not there without it.





Anyone know where I can just stop by and pick up a Jitterbug that have them in stock in Los Angeles, CA area?


----------



## pkcpga

searchofsub said:


> Anyone know where I can just stop by and pick up a Jitterbug that have them in stock in Los Angeles, CA area?




Check your local Best Buy most on the east coast sell them


----------



## SearchOfSub

I understand that but I am looking for Jitterbug in Los Angeles, CA area where I can just pick on up today since I don't feel like waiting for shipping.


----------



## cedstrom

Someone asked earlier in this thread about DFR + OnePlus 3, I can confirm it works (except for the Android bug).


----------



## pkcpga

searchofsub said:


> I understand that but I am looking for Jitterbug in Los Angeles, CA area where I can just pick on up today since I don't feel like waiting for shipping.



My Best Buy in the magnolia room carries them in stock just check to see online if they're in stock by you.
In stock in 3 out 5 locations by me today.


----------



## SearchOfSub

TY. just came back from picking one up. Sound is better in my opinion with my setup. Worth $50.00 I say. I still feel like it loses a bit of transparency of sound (live feel) with the Jitterbug directly on top of DFR or any dac/amp. But I do like the sound inserted on the empty usb socket next to DFR plugged in by itself. Sound is a rougher overall compare to direct connect to DFR, but I feel like it's a good compromise for getting transparency back while still keeping things a bit calmer and sweeter.


----------



## LunaC

I'd be careful upgrading to iOS 10 if using a DF and listening to anything streaming. Im getting nice 'screams' every so often as it appears to be loading a buffer. Same happens on the Creative E5


----------



## estreeter

As tempted as I am by the Red - if only to make my own comparisons with the Black - when it comes to spending 300AUD, I really have to weigh that up against another portable amp (minus DAC) with an external volume control or even another set of cans. Having been down this road before, I know how easy it is to end up with a drawer full of portable gear that is rarely even powered up, much less used - headphones tend to fare a little better over time.


----------



## drummguy26

So I asked this question before about the color code on my DFR for streaming HiFi on Tidal on my smartphone, and it's green. Which I guess is ok. But when I'm streaming HiFi music with Tidal on my laptop, I'm getting a magenta color and the sound is amazing! Why am I getting green on my phone but magenta on my laptop? Even with spotify music is showing magenta... I'm a little confused....


----------



## corius

drummguy26 said:


> So I asked this question before about the color code on my DFR for streaming HiFi on Tidal on my smartphone, and it's green. Which I guess is ok. But when I'm streaming HiFi music with Tidal on my laptop, I'm getting a magenta color and the sound is amazing! Why am I getting green on my phone but magenta on my laptop? Even with spotify music is showing magenta... I'm a little confused....


 
  
 OK, when we talk about replaying a digital track, there is something called "bit perfect". Bit Perfect means that the DFR will be passed a digital stream that is encoded with the same sample rate as the original track was. For example, CD's and Tidal and Spotify are all encoded at a sample rate of 44,100 Hz, and you want the DFR to be sent the tracks at that same speed by your phone. If the DFR is showing Green, then that is what is happening. Green means the DFR is receive a 44,100Hz stream.
  
 However, PC's, Mac's and some smartphones "upsample". That means that the convert the 41,100 Hz stream to, for example, 96,000 Hz and the DFR will quite happily accept that, but will show a magenta light to tell you what sample rate it is receiving.
  
 In general, upsampling is a bad idea, the DFR, or any external DAC is better at handling digital signals that the phone, PC or Mac and it is better to let it do its thing and just send it a "Bit Perfect" stream. On a Mac or PC you can do this by modifying the audio settings.


----------



## drummguy26

corius said:


> OK, when we talk about replaying a digital track, there is something called "bit perfect". Bit Perfect means that the DFR will be passed a digital stream that is encoded with the same sample rate as the original track was. For example, CD's and Tidal and Spotify are all encoded at a sample rate of 44,100 Hz, and you want the DFR to be sent the tracks at that same speed by your phone. If the DFR is showing Green, then that is what is happening. Green means the DFR is receive a 44,100Hz stream.
> 
> However, PC's, Mac's and some smartphones "upsample". That means that the convert the 41,100 Hz stream to, for example, 96,000 Hz and the DFR will quite happily accept that, but will show a magenta light to tell you what sample rate it is receiving.
> 
> In general, upsampling is a bad idea, the DFR, or any external DAC is better at handling digital signals that the phone, PC or Mac and it is better to let it do its thing and just send it a "Bit Perfect" stream. On a Mac or PC you can do this by modifying the audio settings.




Thanks for that explanation! I knew it had something to do with upsampling, but I didn't know it upsampled by default on a laptop, especially with spotify. But there's no way to upsample Tidal on a smartphone right?


----------



## SpiderNhan

drummguy26 said:


> Thanks for that explanation! I knew it had something to do with upsampling, but I didn't know it upsampled by default on a laptop, especially with spotify. But there's no way to upsample Tidal on a smartphone right?


 
 You can by using USB Audio Player Pro. In the settings just check "Upsample to highest rate," then log in to Tidal using the in-app menu and you're good to go.


----------



## drummguy26

spidernhan said:


> You can by using USB Audio Player Pro. In the settings just check "Upsample to highest rate," then log in to Tidal using the in-app menu and you're good to go.




I have an iPhone... Is there a UAPP alternative for iPhone? From what I understand, UAPP is only available for Android. Right?


----------



## SpiderNhan

drummguy26 said:


> I have an iPhone... Is there a UAPP alternative for iPhone? From what I understand, UAPP is only available for Android. Right?


 
 I'm not sure. Don't know much about iDevices and DACs.


----------



## bflat

drummguy26 said:


> I have an iPhone... Is there a UAPP alternative for iPhone? From what I understand, UAPP is only available for Android. Right?


 

 Onkyo HF player is what I use for iOS and has full set of options for sampling rates and DSD.


----------



## drummguy26

bflat said:


> Onkyo HF player is what I use for iOS and has full set of options for sampling rates and DSD.




Right, I know about Onkyo player too, but I don't think Onkyo does what SpiderNhan was talking about by playing tidal through UAPP or an app like it...


----------



## brent75

I prefer iAudioGate to Onkyo for iOS devices.


----------



## headfry

I find Kaisertone excellent and an obvious improvement over the sq 
of Onkyo HD (which is quite good). 

Many find the sq of Kaisertone and iAudiogate
to be close.


----------



## bflat

brent75 said:


> I prefer iAudioGate to Onkyo for iOS devices.




Excellent suggestion! Never heard of iAudioGate before but just got it and the UI is very nice and most importantly, it groups songs by album artist and not song artist like Onkyo does. Korg is a great brand in digital audio too. The only things that may matter to some folks are:

No 2x/4x up sample option. You can only set one frequency to up sample. 

No playlist for Hi Res files. You have to use iTunes for playlists

None of the above matter to me so I think I will use iAudioGate going forward.


----------



## Pastapipo

bflat said:


> The only things that may matter to some folks are:
> 
> No 2x/4x up sample option. You can only set one frequency to up sample.


 
  
 Maybe that is a good thing 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. You can't hear what wasn't there in the first place, and upsampling might lead to artifacts.


----------



## rarrior

I'm looking at getting the new Dragonfly since I never pulled the trigger on the old one. I have a Galaxy Note 4 I plan on using with it as well as AKG K553 Pro's.
  
 Would the Black be sufficient or would I always be left wanting more for the Red?


----------



## Devodonaldson

rarrior said:


> I'm looking at getting the new Dragonfly since I never pulled the trigger on the old one. I have a Galaxy Note 4 I plan on using with it as well as AKG K553 Pro's.
> 
> Would the Black be sufficient or would I always be left wanting more for the Red?



Seeing as you're using Android, know that for proper volume and proper bit rate, you will need an app such as onkyo player or UAPP for either your own music files or Tidal music. The Black will work fine with those headphones. Supposedly has a warmer signature than the red. I love my red, and purchased for potential use with higher impedance headphones down the line


----------



## zept0sec

Anyone know if a firmware update might be able to get the DFR to playback 192 kHz files, or is 96 kHz a hardware limitation?


----------



## west0ne

zept0sec said:


> Anyone know if a firmware update might be able to get the DFR to playback 192 kHz files, or is 96 kHz a hardware limitation?




The ESS DAC chip in theory is capable of more than 24/96, the ESS9016 is capable of 32/384 and DSD11.2Mhz, the blockage could be the USB interface though. By going 24/96 no drive erst are needed with Windows although I understand that updates to Windows 10 will mean that higher sample rates without additional drivers will soon be possible. 

It ,aye be possible for AQ to push a firmware update that increases the sample rate but whether they would want to is a different matter, whether it would be significantly noticeable is also debatable.


----------



## Slaphead

zept0sec said:


> Anyone know if a firmware update might be able to get the DFR to playback 192 kHz files, or is 96 kHz a hardware limitation?




The way it's described by Audioquest is that although the DAC is capable of higher sample rates, the decision was taken to limit it to 96KHz so it would be a true plug and play device - no need to install any drivers on windows.

Any firmware to enable higher sample rates would need to come from Audioquest, so there is the possibility that it could happen, but unlikely given that higher sample rates would need a windows driver, and therefore defeat the idea of making a driverless product.


----------



## west0ne

slaphead said:


> The way it's described by Audioquest is that although the DAC is capable of higher sample rates, the decision was taken to limit it to 96KHz so it would be a true plug and play device - no need to install any drivers on windows.
> 
> Any firmware to enable higher sample rates would need to come from Audioquest, so there is the possibility that it could happen, but unlikely given that higher sample rates would need a windows driver, and therefore defeat the idea of making a driverless product.




Only thing to add is that it looks like an update to Windows 10 will allow for higher sample rates without the need for drivers. Whether AQ consider the uptake of W10 is suffient to warrant any firmware updates is something only they can answer. We could soon be seeing W10 having the same PnP capabilities as Linux and MacOS.


----------



## pkcpga

zept0sec said:


> Anyone know if a firmware update might be able to get the DFR to playback 192 kHz files, or is 96 kHz a hardware limitation?




Most likely no, that would require the DF to have new programming or more filters(taps). Something like the Yggdrasil has 18,000, the mojo 26,000 and DFR 6,800. To my understanding the programming would need to happen at the DAC. The chip is capable but still requires the DAC manufacturer's coding. But I only have a basic understanding from explanations on here and my local hifi shop.


----------



## rarrior

devodonaldson said:


> rarrior said:
> 
> 
> > I'm looking at getting the new Dragonfly since I never pulled the trigger on the old one. I have a Galaxy Note 4 I plan on using with it as well as AKG K553 Pro's.
> ...




That's kind of the reason I wanted to get the Red in the first place is for room to grow later. I'll think about it, thanks for the recommendation.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk


----------



## donunus

Sorry if I couldn't find it in google or searching using headfi's search engine but has anyone here compared either the red or black against a geek out 1000 or v2?


----------



## pkcpga

donunus said:


> Sorry if I couldn't find it in google or searching using headfi's search engine but has anyone here compared either the red or black against a geek out 1000 or v2?




Geek out 1000 is an older DAC/amp that sounds good but requires more power than the dfr. I'd say the dfr has more detail in the highs but lacks the low end of the geek out 1000, never compared them side by side since I owned the geek out 2 years ago, the Greek out definitely had a more complete or well rounded sound, the red is a bit bright for me. But the geek out 1000 can only be used with a computer it requires too much power for a phone or tablet, so I don't own it any longer. Never tried the v2 since again it's a desktop only use, it can not be powered by a mobile device.


----------



## estreeter

pkcpga said:


> Most likely no, that would require the DF to have new programming or more filters(taps). Something like the Yggdrasil has 18,000, the mojo 26,000 and DFR 6,800. To my understanding the programming would need to happen at the DAC. The chip is capable but still requires the DAC manufacturer's coding. But I only have a basic understanding from explanations on here and my local hifi shop.


 
  
  
_The new DragonFly Black (v1.5) uses Streamlength software and a 32-bit ESS 9010 DAC developed fro mobile applications and that runs PCM and DSD, but AudioQuest’s choice of micro controller limits sample rate to 96kHz. None of AudioQuest’s portable DACs cover higher sample rates or DSD because of the radiated noise created by the current crop of high-speed USB micro controllers.* In the confined space of a portable DAC like a DragonFly, which is only 63.5mm long, this noise undermines the sound quality so significantly that it renders higher sample rates pointless.*_
  
 http://www.hifiplus.com/articles/audioquest-dragonfly-red-and-dragonfly-black-dacs/
  
 No, I dont know how LH and others deal with this alleged problem - just passing it on, so lets not shoot the messengers chums !


----------



## donunus

pkcpga said:


> Geek out 1000 is an older DAC/amp that sounds good but requires more power than the dfr. I'd say the dfr has more detail in the highs but lacks the low end of the geek out 1000, never compared them side by side since I owned the geek out 2 years ago, the Greek out definitely had a more complete or well rounded sound, the red is a bit bright for me. But the geek out 1000 can only be used with a computer it requires too much power for a phone or tablet, so I don't own it any longer. Never tried the v2 since again it's a desktop only use, it can not be powered by a mobile device.



anyone able to compare them side by side sonically? I am interested in hf detail more than brightness as well as midrange definition and dynamics. I'm only interested in using it for windows as well.


----------



## estreeter

I'd be more interested in knowing where in hell I'm supposed to actually BUY a GO v2 and whether or not LH Labs finally sorted the issues with the casework. I know there is thread dedicated to this device, but I gave up on it months ago - I'll stick with my DFB even if the paint is starting to flake (still sounds as good as it did six months ago).


----------



## Pastapipo

I doubt if anyone can hear the difference between 192khz and 96khz coming from a $200 thumb stick.
  
 It's like adding a spoiler to a 20 year old fiat panda, looks nice, but is completely useless.


----------



## estreeter

pastapipo said:


> I doubt if anyone can hear the difference between 192khz and 96khz coming from a $200 thumb stick.
> 
> It's like adding a spoiler to a 20 year old fiat panda, looks nice, but is completely useless.


 
  
 I think you'll find that LH Labs and the GO's supporters would maintain that there is a lot more to their 'thumb stick' than higher sample rates, but I take your point.


----------



## Pastapipo

estreeter said:


> I think you'll find that LH Labs and the GO's supporters would maintain that there is a lot more to their 'thumb stick' than higher sample rates, but I take your point.


 
  
 Yes, that's what I meant to say . These thumb sticks should not focus on higher bitrates and DSD support, but do what they do best, improve sound quality.
 Their biggest power is that you can plug them in any device and no matter what you play, the sound quality will improve significantly.
 The Dragonfly improves the sound quality of my laptop drasticly, no matter if you play Youtube music or Hi-Res files. I'm sure LH Labs and others will do the same.


----------



## zept0sec

pastapipo said:


> Yes, that's what I meant to say . These thumb sticks should not focus on higher bitrates and DSD support, but do what they do best, improve sound quality.
> Their biggest power is that you can plug them in any device and no matter what you play, the sound quality will improve significantly.
> The Dragonfly improves the sound quality of my laptop drasticly, no matter if you play Youtube music or Hi-Res files. I'm sure LH Labs and others will do the same.


 
 I don't really expect to hear much of a difference between 96 kHz and 192 kHz files, I just want to be able to play the few 192 kHz files I have in bit-perfect mode in UAPP with the DFR.


----------



## donunus

pastapipo said:


> I doubt if anyone can hear the difference between 192khz and 96khz coming from a $200 thumb stick.
> 
> It's like adding a spoiler to a 20 year old fiat panda, looks nice, but is completely useless.


 actually tried upsampling on the dfb and the sound became more spacious yet softer. With the go1ks hardware upsampling though all my cd quality tracks sound more high end with more metal detail on cymbals on top of the airier soundstage. I prefer no upsampling on the dfb and upsampling on the go1k. on native hi res though thw go1k sounds amazing but Im not sure how much of it is attributed to the mastering itself. transcoding the hires files to 16/44 from 24/192 makes a small but noticeable difference on my grados senns and b&w cans but on my horn speakers it kills the realism of the metallic shimmer of cymbal hits so yah, anytime I can get a high res version of my tracks, I usually prefer it over standard redbook versions.


----------



## donunus

I havent compared 96 vs 192 yet though


----------



## zept0sec

I'm not sure of any sound quality difference between 192/24 and 96/24, but I did not notice improvement when I turned on bit-perfect playback, so I'm hoping to be able to keep it on full-time. I only have a handful of 192/24 albums I bought off acousticsounds.com, but it'd be nice to hear them in full res with the DFR.


----------



## Erukian

lunac said:


> I'd be careful upgrading to iOS 10 if using a DF and listening to anything streaming. Im getting nice 'screams' every so often as it appears to be loading a buffer. Same happens on the Creative E5


 
  
 I'm noticing the same thing. I believe it was the audio mixer on the iphone trying to mix in system notification sounds at 44.1khz. I specifically noticed it when I received an email and the audio was distorted. Turning on the mute switch fixed it for me.


----------



## Erukian

drummguy26 said:


> So a little curious about the 24-hour burn in period. Does this need to be done all at once or continuously from the get go? Or does listening to it here and there for a total of 24 hrs of listening time will accomplish the same thing?


 
  
 That article is referring to warm up, not break in. After I read that article a year ago I just leave my dragonfly plugged in 24/7 in my USB hub in my work office so it stays nice n' toasty. Once the components cool down you need to warm it up again by leaving it plugged into a source.
  
 Correct me if I'm wrong though.


----------



## bflat

I am relieved that iOS 10 works with DFR. In fact, it seems Apple is enhancing external support. In iTunes, you can now see the name of your DAC as the output source. No more, crossing fingers and waiting for sound to come up wondering if the DAC is connected! Will report back when my IP 7 arrives on Friday.


----------



## bflat

erukian said:


> I'm noticing the same thing. I believe it was the audio mixer on the iphone trying to mix in system notification sounds at 44.1khz. I specifically noticed it when I received an email and the audio was distorted. Turning on the mute switch fixed it for me.


 

 I haven't noticed this issue. I'm listening to a 24/96 track and just a got text and the notification sounded normal and the music muted slightly while the notification played. Haven't tried streaming though.


----------



## yardbeatles

Hope this isn't a threadjack, but has anyone seen this guy: http://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=15494 monoprice reps couldn't give me info yet but i wonder how the componets might compare. More specifically does it have low enough power draw to work with the iPhone. Maybe someone has the time/$60 to throw at it to check it out...?


----------



## west0ne

bflat said:


> I am relieved that iOS 10 works with DFR. In fact, it seems Apple is enhancing external support. In iTunes, you can now see the name of your DAC as the output source. No more, crossing fingers and waiting for sound to come up wondering if the DAC is connected! Will report back when my IP 7 arrives on Friday.


 
 It makes sense that Apple would build into iOS 10 better support for external audio output devices as that will be the option with the iPhone 7 and potentially other new iOS devices. I hope they haven't done anything to adversely affect the use of USB audio devices through the CCK in favour of lightning audio devices with the iPhone 7.
  
 As for the screams some have reported. I get that on my Galaxy S7E and Moto G(2015) when using audio through the system rather than UAPP, both devices seem to upsample audio and when system sounds such as the alarm are played it causes the screaming. Strangely on my Galaxy S5 the audio doesn't appear to be upsampled and when I get a message on that device the music just goes a bit quieter.


----------



## nirudhap

west0ne said:


> It makes sense that Apple would build into iOS 10 better support for external audio output devices as that will be the option with the iPhone 7 and potentially other new iOS devices. I hope they haven't done anything to adversely affect the use of USB audio devices through the CCK in favour of lightning audio devices with the iPhone 7.
> 
> As for the screams some have reported. I get that on my Galaxy S7E and Moto G(2015) when using audio through the system rather than UAPP, both devices seem to upsample audio and when system sounds such as the alarm are played it causes the screaming. Strangely on my Galaxy S5 the audio doesn't appear to be upsampled and when I get a message on that device the music just goes a bit quieter.


 
 Do you have hardware volume control on either of the Android devices?
  
 Right now I am using an older iPhone 5S (iOS 10.0.1) as a DAP because Android only has hardware volume control in a specialized app like UAPP.


----------



## estreeter

drQuote: 





yardbeatles said:


> Hope this isn't a threadjack, but has anyone seen this guy: http://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=15494 monoprice reps couldn't give me info yet but i wonder how the componets might compare. More specifically does it have low enough power draw to work with the iPhone. Maybe someone has the time/$60 to throw at it to check it out...?


 
  
 I'll pass.. $60 is a decent chunk off a 12-month *Roon* subscription - money far better spent. The ZuperDAC is the only other budget DAC I'd consider, but I dont see the point when the DFB meets my needs. AQ knew what they were doing when they bundled the Roon trial with the DFB - serious gateway drug.


----------



## Pastapipo

yardbeatles said:


> Hope this isn't a threadjack, but has anyone seen this guy: http://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=15494 monoprice reps couldn't give me info yet but i wonder how the componets might compare. More specifically does it have low enough power draw to work with the iPhone. Maybe someone has the time/$60 to throw at it to check it out...?


 
  
 I am quite interested. However, I am also eyeing an Aliexpress DAC. Shipping costs of the Monoprice USB Dac might be a deal breaker. I'll send them an email to inform about the total cost...


----------



## west0ne

nirudhap said:


> Do you have hardware volume control on either of the Android devices?
> 
> Right now I am using an older iPhone 5S (iOS 10.0.1) as a DAP because Android only has hardware volume control in a specialized app like UAPP.


 
 I do have hardware control on all of my Android devices but that is only because they are all rooted. With root you can use Alsa to directly access the hardware from commandline. It's not an ideal solution but it works and I am OK with it. There have been suggestions that Audioquest are going to update the firmware to make the DFR/DFB work properly with Android but no details of when.
  
 Without root the volume doesn't work properly unless, as you rightly say you are using UAPP.


----------



## nirudhap

west0ne said:


> I do have hardware control on all of my Android devices but that is only because they are all rooted. With root you can use Alsa to directly access the hardware from commandline. It's not an ideal solution but it works and I am OK with it. There have been suggestions that Audioquest are going to update the firmware to make the DFR/DFB work properly with Android but no details of when.
> 
> Without root the volume doesn't work properly unless, as you rightly say you are using UAPP.


 
 Could you point me to the commands to use? I haven't used a Linux command line in some time but I want to give this a try.


----------



## west0ne

nirudhap said:


> Could you point me to the commands to use? I haven't used a Linux command line in some time but I want to give this a try.


 
 You will need to install Alsamixer from the Play Store (BusyBox may also have the alsa commands but I'm not sure as I always install Alsamixer).
  
 In a terminal type:-
  
*su*
*alsa_aplay -l*
  
 This will list the audio devices available on your phone, if you connected the Dragonfly after booting the phone you will probably find that it is 'Card 1'. You will need this for next bit.
  
 In a terminal type:-
  
*su*
*alsa_amixer -c1 set PCM 100%*
  
 The '-c1' flag points to the Dragonfly and assumes it is 'Card 1'  change the '-c1' flag to a different number depending on the number of your card.
  
 You can also change the PCM setting, you could use a percentage or a number on the DFB the volume settings are from 0-64 so you could use PCM 32 for example which would be the same at 50%.
  
 The volume buttons on the phone still work to change the volume but they don't affect the internal hardware of the Dragonfly so they act like software volume controls.
  
 I personally prefer to set the Android volume controls to 100% and then adjust the output volume with the internal volume on the Dragonfly. I have been using '$cripter' from the Play Store as an easy way to control the Dragonfly Volume by running scripts on demand. 
  
 Hope that helps.


----------



## donunus

Finally got to compare the red and the black along with the lhlabs go1000. Black=good value for the money but lacks depth and speakers don't dissapear. A little dry and lacking in depth. A jitterbug improves the depth a little but takes the price up to 150. LH Labs GO1000 better depth and more complete sounding than the black and improves with the jitterbug as well. The Red=Blows both out of the water in detail, tightness, depth wow! The red also sounds best to me without the jitterbug in the chain. But all improve a little with the jitterbug plugged in another USB port. The change in the sound of the jitterbug in the chain vs on another USB port is always bigger but on the red, I found the jitterbug's effects less desirable in the chain.
  
 The system tested was Magnepan MMGs and a subwoofer connected to Adcom Separates coming from JRiver 22. I also compared the black to the LHLabs a week ago on my custom DIY Horn speaker system.


----------



## balek

west0ne said:


> nirudhap said:
> 
> 
> > Could you point me to the commands to use? I haven't used a Linux command line in some time but I want to give this a try.
> ...




Thanks for your tips.
I followed the steps and now I can use all my apps with DFB.
Very usefull information!

Trimis de pe al meu SM-N9005 folosind Tapatalk


----------



## west0ne

balek said:


> Thanks for your tips.
> I followed the steps and now I can use all my apps with DFB.
> Very usefull information!
> 
> Trimis de pe al meu SM-N9005 folosind Tapatalk


 
 If you use something like Tasker or $scripter you can even create yourself some simple volume control buttons. With Tasker you can go so far as to create a standalone app with volume buttons for your DFB. This approach starts to make the DFB much more usable in everyday use.
  
 The command you need the script to run is.
  
*alsa_amixer -c1 -q set PCM 1dB+*
  
 This will increase the volume by 1 step if you change the '*+*' to a '*-'* it will reduce the volume by 1 step. The '-*q'* flag just prevents any visual feedback on the command.
  
 You can also use '*mute*' or '*unmute*' commands after the '*set PCM*' to mute and unmute the volume.
  
 The Alsa manpages will provide details of all the commands available, although not all work with the Android version of Alsa.


----------



## LunaC

erukian said:


> I'm noticing the same thing. I believe it was the audio mixer on the iphone trying to mix in system notification sounds at 44.1khz. I specifically noticed it when I received an email and the audio was distorted. Turning on the mute switch fixed it for me.




I purchased the lightning to USB/camera connection kit with the extra power port on it and the issue is gone. I've been using it and need to swap back to the original usb3 one to see if comes back but I forget to try ...something to do with enjoying the DFR with the Andromeda  I'll report back the result as verification of solution


----------



## LunaC

bflat said:


> I haven't noticed this issue. I'm listening to a 24/96 track and just a got text and the notification sounded normal and the music muted slightly while the notification played. Haven't tried streaming though.




My issue was definitely noise/interference from buffering music, not the mixer. I'm always on vibrate


----------



## gr8soundz

Searched the thread but couldn't find this exact info:
  
 I'm looking at the Dragonfly to use as a tiny desktop dac. Getting tired of my larger dacs taking up space plus all the buttons/knobs. DF has no battery to worry about, no physical controls, and no drivers to install. Don't mind (potentially) giving up a bit of sound quality for simplicity.
  
*Question is which Dragonfly (**Black or Red)** might work better as a preamp (connected to a separate headphone amp)?*
  
 Most of the time, I won't be using headphones direct to the Dragonfly so not sure if the audio differences between the two will have as much impact going to an external amp. Also, after reading a few post where users say the Black might be more powerful (though less refined), something tells me specs (like 1.2V max output for Black and 2.1V for Red) may not be the best guide.


----------



## donunus

red would be better for that due to higher quality sound and higher output


----------



## gr8soundz

donunus said:


> red would be better for that due to higher quality sound and higher output


 
  
 Thanks. That's what I was thinking. But after reading some of the thread, differences between the two don't seem as simple.
  
 Higher cost of the Red isn't a big deal but, if I'm going to continue up the scale, I'm afraid I'll end up where I started.
  
 Was going to get the RL Herus+ with the same ES9010 chip as the DF Black but the Herus is 2 years older (and 4x the cost). Two years is a long time in dac tech and, having heard neither, can't see the Herus sounding that much better (if at all) than either Dragonfly.


----------



## west0ne

I have run the Black through the Vali2 amp and have to say it worked perfectly well, as you are aware the Red & Black do sound different and that will come through when you put them through an external amp and then it comes down to what sound you prefer.


----------



## gr8soundz

west0ne said:


> I have run the Black through the Vali2 amp and have to say it worked perfectly well, as you are aware the Red & Black do sound different and that will come through when you put them through an external amp and then it comes down to what sound you prefer.


 
  
 Thanks.
  
 I have a Vali 1 on the way (don't use iems nor roll tubes and the ringing flaw was resolved) so that is good to know. I may order both Dragonflys (both combined still less than Herus) and keep the one that sounds best with it.


----------



## donunus

If you want a less transparent drier sound and want to save money then get the black but if you want more detail and depth and just a generally higher end sound then the red will be better. This was based on jriver use and I have no comments about mobile phone usage


----------



## recon56

Anyone notice a slightly noisy filter or muffling effect on the Dragonfly Red's output? I am comparing the dragonfly to the FiiO E10k and the E10K sounds clearer and crisp. I am using the Roon app with TIDAL streaming and have both DACs set to 16-bit/44100hz output format.


----------



## psikey

With my highly sensitive Shure SE846's connected ti my DFR via Android UAPP or PC JRiverMC its super clear and dead silent just like a Chord Mojo. I usually get annoyed if any background hiss of any kind. I'm amazed how good SQ is comparwd the Mojo actually.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


----------



## donunus

donunus said:


> Finally got to compare the red and the black along with the lhlabs go1000. Black=good value for the money but lacks depth and speakers don't dissapear. A little dry and lacking in depth. A jitterbug improves the depth a little but takes the price up to 150. LH Labs GO1000 better depth and more complete sounding than the black and improves with the jitterbug as well. The Red=Blows both out of the water in detail, tightness, depth wow! The red also sounds best to me without the jitterbug in the chain. But all improve a little with the jitterbug plugged in another USB port. The change in the sound of the jitterbug in the chain vs on another USB port is always bigger but on the red, I found the jitterbug's effects less desirable in the chain.
> 
> The system tested was Magnepan MMGs and a subwoofer connected to Adcom Separates coming from JRiver 22. I also compared the black to the LHLabs a week ago on my custom DIY Horn speaker system.



follow up: doing a comparison on my diy horns of the df red against the lhlabs go1000 fully warmed up and it is a different story. The go1k has more depth, meat but is just as detailed and sounds better overall. I'm thinking with the geek out, warm up is a significant factor since it is a class A design and since it wasnt warm when tested out of my house with the magnepans, it was not sounding as good as it could while when tested on my system, it was already connected for at least a day when tested. I just remembered that it was a class A design and warm up is critical for this type of thing.


----------



## rhadorn

Audioquest say DFR shall also be warmed up one day before being measured. Did you warm up both devices before comparing them?


----------



## pkcpga

rhadorn said:


> Audioquest say DFR shall also be warmed up one day before being measured. Did you warm up both devices before comparing them?



Why would you warm the dfr or any plug and play portable DAC up before measuring, that's not a realistic way that 99% of people would use the device? It's a portable plug and play device that's been advertised to use quickly on the go, so the numbers will be more realistic to the way it's being used if you take measurements a few minutes after starting up.


----------



## good sound

pkcpga said:


> rhadorn said:
> 
> 
> > Audioquest say DFR shall also be warmed up one day before being measured. Did you warm up both devices before comparing them?
> ...




And the GO isn't?


----------



## rhadorn

pkcpga said:


> Why would you warm the dfr or any plug and play portable DAC up before measuring, that's not a realistic way that 99% of people would use the device? It's a portable plug and play device that's been advertised to use quickly on the go, so the numbers will be more realistic to the way it's being used if you take measurements a few minutes after starting up.


 
  
 I actually use the DFR on the go, without any warming up. But if you compare two devices, you should give them the same chances, both being warmed up or both with a 'cold start'.


----------



## simonpickard

Hi,
  
 New Red owner here. Using it with my Shure 846's. Only been using it a few hours and it still feels a little veiled to me but at times I feel something really amazing shinning through. Maybe just getting used to the sound but I do feel like it's slowly starting to settle in.
  
 One question.
  
 When using it with my MacBook in the midi settings it only ever shows 24bit. I'm playing 16bit, does this matter or is it just the frequency that matters?
  
 Regards,
 Simon


----------



## recon56

I did test both warmed up for about 24 hours. I think the problem was with streaming tidal over Roon. I can't replicate the issue using the TIDAL PC standalone application.


----------



## donunus

Although the red may also benefit with a warm up, it generally doesn't run hot like the GO1k. I didn't notice as much differences with the df warmed up vs the go1k


----------



## simonpickard

Hello all,
  
 Tried my Red on my iPhone 7 this morning with their Lightning to USB camera adaptor. Getting all kinds of pops in the music?
 Any ideas?


----------



## recon56

There is a section on it on the Audioquest dragon fly faqs sections. There answer is 
  


> In some rare instances, the combination of an iOS device in conjunction with the standard CCK and DragonFly Black or Red causes a clicking in the background of the music.
> 
> Neither we nor Apple have been able to determine why that is, but in circumstances where this occurs we’ve found that using Apple’s Lightning to USB 3.0 Camera Connection Kit resolves the problem. In addition, this connector offers improved audio performance over the smaller unit and gives the end user the ability to charge their iOS device while listening to music.


----------



## simonpickard

recon56 said:


> There is a section on it on the Audioquest dragon fly faqs sections. There answer is


 
  
 Grrrr. Wish I'd known that before buying the cable.


----------



## bflat

simonpickard said:


> Grrrr. Wish I'd known that before buying the cable.


 

 I have an iPhone 7 and DFR and using standard CCK. I have not experienced the clicking on the DFR but have experienced with other DACs. In those cases, I think there is a problem syncing the PCM sampling rates and depends on what music player you are using. I only use Apple Music, iAudiogate, and Onkyo HF and no issues with those. If you are using another player, that could be the problem.


----------



## jegnyc

bflat said:


> I have an iPhone 7 and DFR and using standard CCK. I have not experienced the clicking on the DFR but have experienced with other DACs. In those cases, I think there is a problem syncing the PCM sampling rates and depends on what music player you are using. I only use Apple Music, iAudiogate, and Onkyo HF and no issues with those. If you are using another player, that could be the problem.


 
 I don't think so.  I had the problem described.  To begin with the punch line, the solution in the FAQ worked for me.  But here is the testing I did:
  
 I have a DFR and a DFB.  I also have an iPhone 6S, an iPhone 5S and two older iPads.  I only had the problem with the 6S where I heard intermittent clicking with both the DFR and the DFB using iTunes, LMS/iPeng and Tidal (although LMS seemed a bit worse than the others).


----------



## simonpickard

Hi,
  
 Yeah I'm just using Apple Music for my player. Continue to get the pops and clicks. No issues at all on my Mac.


----------



## kartik7405

i have Audioengine D3 USB DAC  .
 Anyone please compare with DF Red/Black ??


----------



## slackerpo

kartik7405 said:


> i have Audioengine D3 USB DAC  .
> Anyone please compare with DF Red/Black ??


 
  
 i tested the d3 last year, and have tested the red. the red is the better unit imo.
  
 the audioengine is a great device but, audioquest really nailed it.


----------



## tom903

I bought the red and tried them on my new iphone 7 plus and hear constant clicking noises.
  
 The response from audioquest:
 "In some rare instances, the combination of an iOS device in conjunction with the standard CCK and DragonFly Black or Red causes a clicking in the background of the music.
  
 Neither we nor Apple have been able to determine why that is, but in circumstances where this occurs we’ve found that using Apple’s Lightning to USB 3.0 Camera Connection Kit resolves the problem. In addition, this connector offers improved audio performance over the smaller unit and gives the end user the ability to charge their iOS device while listening to music."
  
 irritates me.  First, why should the other cable have better audio performance? 44.1/16 is 44.1/16  Second, why is this not mentioned more prominently on their website...apple cables are not quit cheap.   Third, I am quite pissed at Apple too, because the red is working without problems on my Mac.  If you get rid of the audio connector at least make the other options right in the first place.
  
 Currently, I can not recommend the combination iphone and Dragonfly red.  Too bad, I really like their sound.


----------



## Ymie

Has anyone compiled a list with working combo dragonfly black/red and android phone?
  
 I think that'd be helpful and I wouldn't like to do the grunt work if someone else already has done it.


----------



## ilcg1

Just got my red yesterday and was comparing it back to back with chord mojo for hours listening to same tracks and I've just decided to return mojo. I don't want to have a whole bunch of dacs and one dac that will be used as desktop and portable ocassionaly should be good enough for me.

I used both dacs with Westone UM Pro 50, with UE buffer jack and I have to say that to my ears sound quality was very similar. I couldn't really tell if I liked Mojo over red or vv and judging buy the red's 1/3 price of mojo I decided to leave red and return mojo.

Initially I bought Sony pha-1a (after comparing it to oppo ha-2) - sold it later. Bought Chord Mojo based on reviews only and hype train (chu-chu) - really liked it, however didn't like the form factor and the price (even though I can easily afford it). I came across Darko's review of Audioquest dragonflies and decided to try them. Went to local dealer and after listening to both red and black I liked red's sound better.

My Westone UM Pro 50 are good enough on their own straight from Iphone (with UE bigger jack), however I wanted to get a little more out of them. After months of trials I can say that at least for now dragonfly red is a sweet spot for me in terms of SQ and price to be used with my Westone's.


----------



## tom903

Update on the red with an iphone7. Went to the apple store today and exchanged the usb adapter with the usb 3.0 adapter. It is working now without the clicking noise...overall weird.


----------



## zolom

Need advice.
In about two weeks I am going to be in Hong Kong. I would like to purchase either the Red or the Black for my son's S7 edge exynos. 
Currently I own the Black and it sounds superb with my S7e. I wonder if the Red is a better option with the S7e and the Shure se846.
I will not have a time for burn-in during my stay there.
Is the Red more revealing? how is its Bass compared to the Black (with the setup mentioned above)?

 Thanks


----------



## west0ne

zolom said:


> Need advice.
> In about two weeks I am going to be in Hong Kong. I would like to purchase either the Red or the Black for my son's S7 edge exynos.
> Currently I own the Black and it sounds superb with my S7e. I wonder if the Red is a better option with the S7e and the Shure se846.
> I will not have a time for burn-in during my stay there.
> ...


 
 Will you be using it solely with UAPP or will you want to use it with other Apps? Both the Red & Black have issues with the volume control in Android and only have full volume control with UAPP. The Black has a higher output volume than the Red in all Apps other than UAPP, the Red has a higher output in UAPP as you have control over the volume. It has been suggested that a firmware fix will resolve this but it will mean connecting the Red/Black to a computer.
  
 The SE846 would probably go loud enough even with the Red but you need to be aware of the potential issues. In terms of pure performance the Red is the better of the two but the Black is no slouch.


----------



## zolom

Thanks.
From Bass perspectives, is the Red better (warmer)? Without overriding the mids?
We mostly listen to Tidal without the use of UAPP.


----------



## LunaC

recon56 said:


> There is a section on it on the Audioquest dragon fly faqs sections. There answer is




I see they found the same remedy I reported


----------



## HiFiGuy528

iPhone 7 users, here's a workaround to listen & charge at the same time. This is an Apple made adapter.


----------



## drykoke

tom903 said:


> Update on the red with an iphone7. Went to the apple store today and exchanged the usb adapter with the usb 3.0 adapter. It is working now without the clicking noise...overall weird.


 
 I made a bad mistake today. (Standard IPad Air, 1st generation, with cheap China Lightning USB Adapter that has been working fine for months with DFR).
  
 The IPad nagged me today to upgrade to IOS 10.
  
 Lo and behold, after the upgrade, there is no audio from the DFR, although it lights up Red as usual, whilst music is plentiful from the IPad speakers/ headphone jack.
  
 Is there something in Settings to force USB audio on IOS 10? Or do I now have to get this new-fangled, very expensive cable?


----------



## WutDaFunk

zolom said:


> Thanks.
> From Bass perspectives, is the Red better (warmer)? Without overriding the mids?
> We mostly listen to Tidal without the use of UAPP.


I have both the red and black. The black is definitely the warmer of the two. To me, the red makes the bass tighter and more refined.


----------



## simonpickard

simonpickard said:


> Hi,
> 
> Yeah I'm just using Apple Music for my player. Continue to get the pops and clicks. No issues at all on my Mac.


 

 Interesting thing. I tried the same cable, apple music, red, but with my ipad not my iphone. No issues at all.


----------



## jrflanne

If I got an iphone 7, the Dragonfly Red would be what I would get. Glad it is working for you, but alas, I am going to suffer through my iphone6. Until it dies.


----------



## Pastapipo

jrflanne said:


> If I got an iphone 7, the Dragonfly Red would be what I would get. Glad it is working for you, but alas, I am going to *suffer through my iphone6. *Until it dies.


 
  
 The iPhone 6 is not exactly a slouch. There are no new ground-breaking features you're missing out imho. So you could just buy the Dragonfly Red now and share some impression


----------



## kartik7405

Generally saber DACs tend to be on brighter side.
 How is Dragonfly red different in terms of sound signature compared to sabre signature ??


----------



## LunaC

drykoke said:


> I made a bad mistake today. (Standard IPad Air, 1st generation, with cheap China Lightning USB Adapter that has been working fine for months with DFR).
> 
> The IPad nagged me today to upgrade to IOS 10.
> 
> ...




Sounds like typical apple clamping down on non certified cables to me.


----------



## west0ne

lunac said:


> Sounds like typical apple clamping down on non certified cables to me.


 
 It may not be intentional; but I don't think you can ever rely on third party non-MFi certified cables or accessories working with iDevices following firmware updates. From what I've read the lightning interface includes a facility for an identifier chip that will allow the host to properly identify the attached accessory and adapt the port/interface to suit. Apple did something with iOS 10 to allow audio data to be sent over the lightning port to accessories such as the 3.5mm adapter and lightning headphones; it is not inconceivable that this has had an effect on other accessories that don't properly identify themselves.
  
 Bottom line is that whether we like it or not Apple makes money from the MFi certification process and it is not in their interests to test firmware updates or make firmware updates work with non-MFi certified accessories and there is no comeback on Apple when these non-MFi certified accessories stop working. I hate to sound like an Apple apologist because I don't think it is fair on consumers but it's just the way it is.


----------



## estreeter

kartik7405 said:


> Generally saber DACs tend to be on brighter side.
> How is Dragonfly red different in terms of sound signature compared to sabre signature ??


 
  
 I've owned several DACs (and DAPs) with ESS chips, and the only one that I found overly bright was the Oppo BDP-105D. Even then, it was only an issue with my HD800s, and I'd challenge anyone to A/B the DFB with the Oppo and tell me they're similarly 'bright' DACs, but as I dont have the Oppo or the HD800 any more its a moot point for me.


----------



## zolom

Noticed a *very loud shriek *from the phone (S7e) *speaker* while the DFB is connected and a call is received *(ringing*)
  
 Is that a known issue? how to resolve that?
  
 Thanks


----------



## psikey

Happens to me, only music comes through the headphones, not the system sound which still seems to come out of the phone speaker. Not really a concern for me (I'm using a std S7)


----------



## jasonb

I'm interested in the Dragonfly Red, but have 2 questions:
  
 1: Has anybody used one with a Chomebook? I'm assuming it would work, but I'd like confirmation
  
 2: Does it have plenty of power for the AKG Q701?


----------



## pinoyman

1. it will work.
 2. not enough power to drive even the K701. MOJO can however. 
 but can drive most iems.


----------



## jasonb

pinoyman said:


> 1. it will work.
> 2. not enough power to drive even the K701. MOJO can however.
> but can drive most iems.


 
  
 I'm not spending that much, isn't the MOJO like 3 times the price?
  
 I don't listen that loudly. The headphone jack on my Acer Chromebook R11 has plenty of power to get the Q701 sounding good. I find it hard to believe it wouldn't have more power than my Chromebook's headphone jack. You've heard the Q701 with the Dragonfly red?


----------



## VRacer-111

pinoyman said:


> 1. it will work.
> 2. not enough power to drive even the K701. MOJO can however.
> but can drive most iems.




Um, are you sure about #2....

DFR will drive AKG K7XX to rediculous, deaf inducing levels at less than 1/2 volume on UAPP on my Samsung Tablet. On laptop, you only really need to use about 30% volume for the DFR and 10% on foobar2k slider in system volume mixer....if you do 100% on the DFR you would need like 3-4% on the F2k slider in volume mixer. With my Fostex TH-X00 Purplehearts I'm using 19% for the DFR and 6% foobar2k on system mixer on my laptop. Absolutely plenty of power to drive AKG' K7XX, and drives Fostex T50RP Mark III EASILY too...


----------



## jasonb

vracer-111 said:


> Um, are you sure about #2....
> 
> DFR will drive AKG K7XX to rediculous, deaf inducing levels at less than 1/2 volume on UAPP on my Samsung Tablet. On laptop, you only really need to use about 30% volume for the DFR and 10% on foobar2k slider in system volume mixer....if you do 100% on the DFR you would need like 3-4% on the F2k slider in volume mixer. With my Fostex TH-X00 Purplehearts I'm using 19% for the DFR and 6% foobar2k on system mixer on my laptop. Absolutely plenty of power to drive AKG' K7XX, and drives Fostex T50RP Mark III EASILY too...




Sounds good. I may get one in the future.


----------



## WutDaFunk

vracer-111 said:


> Um, are you sure about #2....
> 
> DFR will drive AKG K7XX to rediculous, deaf inducing levels at less than 1/2 volume on UAPP on my Samsung Tablet. On laptop, you only really need to use about 30% volume for the DFR and 10% on foobar2k slider in system volume mixer....if you do 100% on the DFR you would need like 3-4% on the F2k slider in volume mixer. With my Fostex TH-X00 Purplehearts I'm using 19% for the DFR and 6% foobar2k on system mixer on my laptop. Absolutely plenty of power to drive AKG' K7XX, and drives Fostex T50RP Mark III EASILY too...







pinoyman said:


> 1. it will work.
> 2. not enough power to drive even the K701. MOJO can however.
> but can drive most iems.


The DFR can apparently drive HD600's too. Is the 701 really that much harder to drive? I don't think so...


----------



## SpiderNhan

DFR powers my Q701 and T50rp mk3 without issue. Both reach deafening levels.


----------



## ilcg1

jasonb said:


> I'm interested in the Dragonfly Red, but have 2 questions:
> 
> 1: Has anybody used one with a Chomebook? I'm assuming it would work, but I'd like confirmation
> 
> 2: Does it have plenty of power for the AKG Q701?




Red has enough power to drive my Q701 perfectly. Q701 sounds a little better (or different probably is a better word) with mojo though, but not 3x better - it is all in some details/nuances. I had mojo and returned it since I listen mostly to IEM (Westone UM pro 50) and df red does the job very well.


----------



## west0ne

Even the DFB will send my K702 to a volume level higher than I could safely listen so the DFB should certainly be OK with the K701.

I generally have the DFB volume set at 20/44 so a little under 50% (generally listening to jazz), it may go a little higher for quiet classical pieces but never even close to max.

I use my DFB with my Chromebook (Acer C720), the only problem I find with the Chromebook is that the volume control jumps in 2% steps so fine control is difficult. I have my Chromebook in Dev mode so use Alsamixer to get fine single step volume control. I can see no reason why the DFR would be any different.


----------



## GerMan

hifiguy528 said:


> iPhone 7 users, here's a workaround to listen & charge at the same time. This is an Apple made adapter.


 
  
 This adapter is also said to be necessary to avoid clicking noises.
  
 Are you kidding? This simply Looks HORRIBLE!


----------



## kartik7405

Does anyone have RMAA measurment of DF Red/Black ??


----------



## Epiteto

I'm thinking about to sell my fiio x1 to buy a black dragon fly to connect via otg to my zenfone
 Do you think dragon fly black, is better than a fiio x1 dap?
 Thank you


----------



## SpiderNhan

spidernhan said:


> DFR powers my Q701 and T50rp mk3 without issue. Both reach deafening levels.



To better qualify my statement using an Objective 2 amp as reference:

O2>M-100 - 7-8 o'clock on low gain
DFR>M-100 - 35-45% software volume (varies depending on song/player)

O2>Q701 - 10-11 o'clock on low gain
DFR>Q701 - 40-60% software volume (varies depending on song/player)

O2>T50rp mk3 - 1-2 o'clock on low gain
DFR>T50rp mk3 - 70-85% software volume
(varies depending on song/player)


----------



## jegnyc

german said:


> This adapter is also said to be necessary to avoid clicking noises.
> 
> Are you kidding? This simply Looks HORRIBLE!


 
 The USB-3 CCK is only necessary for a small number of units.  I have one, but my other 3 iDevices work fine with the standard CCK.  Also you don't need to keep the power cable attached.  With the extra port, the USB-3 is obviously bigger and the dongle cable is stiffer (so it doesn't fit in my pouch, which is annoying).


----------



## estreeter

kartik7405 said:


> Does anyone have RMAA measurment of DF Red/Black ??


 
  
 Unless they're published by someone who has a proven history in measuring gear, I'll be ignoring any RMAA measurements.
  
 http://nwavguy.blogspot.com.au/2011/02/rightmark-audio-analyzer-rmaa.html
  
 I dont worship nwavguy in the same manner as many here, and that critique might seem dated, but when you look at the effort people like Tyll put into their measurements its clear that RMAA just doesnt cut it.


----------



## estreeter

Further to my last, if John Atkinson can have his measurements questioned by Audioquest, where does that leave a 22-year old with a PC soundcard and RMAA ?
  
 http://www.stereophile.com/content/audioquest-dragonfly-red-black-usb-da-headphone-amplifiers-measurements#eH2BdJPgTDl7wP5d.97
  
_I measured the AudioQuest DragonFly Red and Black with my* Audio Precision SYS2722* system_
  
 http://www.stereophile.com/content/audioquest-dragonfly-red-black-usb-da-headphone-amplifiers-manufacturers-comment#08sLkJYzWlZpISoj.97
  
_Gordon's tests were performed using a *Prism Sound dScope Series III* measurement system._
  
 The audiophile way seems to be to agree with measurements when they conform to our subjective impressions and disagree when they don't, making JA's job a thankless one, but I'll take those numbers over RMAA any day of the week. I'm all for independent measurements, but the iFi iPower fiasco highlights just how quickly some amateurs are prepared to denigrate a product based on the numbers they believe they've accurately measured. I dont know why iFi didnt sue the individual in question, but more power to them if they can roll with the punches.


----------



## Gabbleratchet7

I have been enjoying the Dragonfly Black v1.5 the last few weeks with my iPhone 6 and Westone IEMs, but had a weird experience yesterday. Listening to Wilco's new album, Schmilco, on my commute home from work, about midway through I thought, "I don't remember there being so many instrumentals on this record," after hearing three vocal-less tracks in a row. 

Backing up to the first two tracks, the vocals were gone from them, too. And for most other tracks I played from my downloaded songs. Unplugged the Dragonfly and plugged in some Apple earpods directly into the phone (my Westones and iPhone don't play nice each other when plugged directly) and the vocals were back. Plugged the Dragonfly back in, vocals were gone again. It seems the DAC was inverting the polarity of one of the stereo channels such that the centred audio was eliminated. 

The DAC was back to normal the next morning and I have been unable to replicate the issue since.


----------



## Aradea

Can the dragonfly be used as a dac only and connect it to an amp? Any experience with a tube amp?


----------



## west0ne

aradea said:


> Can the dragonfly be used as a dac only and connect it to an amp? Any experience with a tube amp?




If you set the volume to 100% it can feed into an external amp. I've used mine with the Vali 2.


----------



## simonecosta75

Hello mate , i have a quest
 at first sorry for my english
 i have sell yesterday my onkyo dp-x1 , becouse i want a buy a phone for drive my music outside the home ..
 i have the dragonfly red and senneihser hd600 and i use tidal for streaming music ..
 what is best phone ?iphone  6s  or lg v10 ? or?
 now i have one samsung s7 edge but i need use usb audio player pro , whitout this app , direct on my tidal hifi account dont work .. i try on my ipad air but the sound is only decent ...
 any idea ? one phone android base work direct whit tidal on dragonfly red ?


----------



## Aradea

west0ne said:


> If you set the volume to 100% it can feed into an external amp. I've used mine with the Vali 2.



Which one do you have? Black or red? How's the sound?


----------



## west0ne

aradea said:


> Which one do you have? Black or red? How's the sound?




I have the Black and it sounds fine going through the amp. Obviously the Vali 2 adds something of its own sound but there is no distortion or anything that you could attribute to an incompatibility between the DFB and the Vali.


----------



## Aradea

west0ne said:


> I have the Black and it sounds fine going through the amp. Obviously the Vali 2 adds something of its own sound but there is no distortion or anything that you could attribute to an incompatibility between the DFB and the Vali.



Thank you very much!


----------



## musicisthekey

Has anyone tried to use ZX2 as a transport with the Red? Was volume too low without using UAPP as with other Android devices? UAPP is not compatible with ZX2 because of outdated OS. I know it seems like an overkill but I'm just curious.


----------



## KayakNate

Got my Black in today. It sounds good. But it pops. A lot. listening to songs that start out quiet have occasional annoying popping. This does not occur with the included lightning to 3.5mm adapter.
  
 Not sure if it's s software thing, bad lightning to USB, or bad Dragonfly. But it's a real bummer.


----------



## jegnyc

kayaknate said:


> Got my Black in today. It sounds good. But it pops. A lot. listening to songs that start out quiet have occasional annoying popping. This does not occur with the included lightning to 3.5mm adapter.
> 
> Not sure if it's s software thing, bad lightning to USB, or bad Dragonfly. But it's a real bummer.


 
 You may have the problem I had.  Can you try it with a second iDevice and see if you hear the popping there as well?


----------



## estreeter

simonecosta75 said:


> Hello mate , i have a quest
> at first sorry for my english
> i have sell yesterday my onkyo dp-x1 , becouse i want a buy a phone for drive my music outside the home ..
> i have the dragonfly red and senneihser hd600 and i use tidal for streaming music ..
> ...


 
  
 Hi,
  
     OK - lets see if we can state this as clearly as possilbe:
  
    1. You cant buy ANY Android phone - current or otherwise - and expect it to drive the Dragonfly,  Ignore the hoopla re 'any version of Android after 5.xx' : *the phone needs a sufficiently powerful battery and the manufacturer needs to implement USB audio properly*. Of the 3 Android devices in my possession, only one works with the DF Black:
  
 http://www.officeworks.com.au/shop/officeworks/p/lenovo-tab-2-a7-10-7-tablet-sylena7tab
  
     Given that its not a phone and few would be prepared to carry something that large around, you'll be better served with an Apple phone IMO for one simple reason : *we know all current iPhone models work with nothing more than the Lightning-USB connector*. The major issue seems to be around battery usage, and that's one area where the larger tablet / phablet form factor really shines.
  
    2. I dont know what specific difficulties phone users face accessing TIDAL, but *I've had no problems using Roon, Spotify, Youtube and other apps with the DFB*. The only application that refuses to recognise it as my default output device is Audacity on my laptop but that's such a tiny fraction of AQ's target market that it really shouldnt concern us. I'm sure someone else here has TIDAL and can give you more info.
  
 Hope this helps.


----------



## JakiChan

I wanna get a Red but I can't find anyone with them in San Jose.  And I don't wanna wait. 
  
 Edit: I could get a Black by tomorrow...not sure if I could tell the difference.  But I'd rather have the best...


----------



## west0ne

simonecosta75 said:


> Hello mate , i have a quest
> at first sorry for my english
> i have sell yesterday my onkyo dp-x1 , becouse i want a buy a phone for drive my music outside the home ..
> i have the dragonfly red and senneihser hd600 and i use tidal for streaming music ..
> ...


 
 If you want to use Android as just a transport buy yourself a Moto G (2nd or 3rd Gen), root it and install a custom rom CM13 works well, this is very easy to do. This model with CM13 work well with USB audio and because it is rooted you can get full volume control of the Dragonfly with all apps not just UAPP.
  
 Here in the UK the Moto G is very cheap so makes a good player.


----------



## simonecosta75

estreeter said:


> Hi,
> 
> OK - lets see if we can state this as clearly as possilbe:
> 
> ...


 
 thanks for the help
 I tried it with the iphone of my girlfriend and it works without any application, but while playing it feels like a sound, like a beep. I think I read about this problem to other people .. no way to solve?


----------



## west0ne

simonecosta75 said:


> thanks for the help
> 
> I tried it with the iphone of my girlfriend and it works without any application, but while playing it feels like a sound, like a beep. I think I read about this problem to other people .. no way to solve?




It has been suggested that the new Apple Camera Connection Kit (CCK) that works with USB3 and has the charging port alongside the USB port overcomes the problems of popping/clicking/noise.


----------



## simonecosta75

west0ne said:


> It has been suggested that the new Apple Camera Connection Kit (CCK) that works with USB3 and has the charging port alongside the USB port
> 
> Link me in amazon pls ?


----------



## west0ne

simonecosta75 said:


> west0ne said:
> 
> 
> > It has been suggested that the new Apple Camera Connection Kit (CCK) that works with USB3 and has the charging port alongside the USB port
> ...


----------



## dbau

I bought a third-party Lightning->USB cable for a mere $2 AUD shipped from China (via eBay), and it works well with my DragonFly Red / iPhone 6S+.
  
 Worth trying if you don't want to buy the official Camera Kit from Apple.


----------



## west0ne

There have been reports that some of the non-MFi certified cables have stopped working under iOS 10. Don't know how true this is but be careful with non certified third party devices as there are no guarantees that they will continue working under future firmware updates.


----------



## dbau

west0ne said:


> There have been reports that some of the non-MFi certified cables have stopped working under iOS 10. Don't know how true this is but be careful with non certified third party devices as there are no guarantees that they will continue working under future firmware updates.


 
 Interesting - FWIW I'm on iOS 10.0.2 and haven't had any dramas, but I've admittedly only clocked a few hours of usage with the third-party cable thus far.


----------



## slackerpo

where is the update?


----------



## KayakNate

jegnyc said:


> You may have the problem I had.  Can you try it with a second iDevice and see if you hear the popping there as well?


 
 I don't have any other iOS devices to test with. Do you think that the DF having popping with specific models could/would be fixed with any kind of software update?


----------



## jegnyc

kayaknate said:


> I don't have any other iOS devices to test with. Do you think that the DF having popping with specific models could/would be fixed with any kind of software update?


 
 There's a FAQ on the Audioquest website that discusses the problem I had and which you might have.  Or you can look at some of my (and others') recent posts on this thread.
  
 From what I've read and the testing I've done, the problem is with Apple.  It affects a small percentage of iDevices including some 6S's and 7's. I don't know if Audioquest has reports of the same problem in other models.  Audioquest submitted a bug report to Apple in May, but neither Apple nor Audioquest has identified the cause.  The workaround is to buy Apple's USB-3 CCK instead of the standard CCK.


----------



## bflat

jegnyc said:


> There's a FAQ on the Audioquest website that discusses the problem I had and which you might have.  Or you can look at some of my (and others') recent posts on this thread.
> 
> From what I've read and the testing I've done, the problem is with Apple.  It affects a small percentage of iDevices including some 6S's and 7's. I don't know if Audioquest has reports of the same problem in other models.  Audioquest submitted a bug report to Apple in May, but neither Apple nor Audioquest has identified the cause.  The workaround is to buy Apple's USB-3 CCK instead of the standard CCK.


 

 Does this happen only when cell signal is on? If so, what band does your phone use? GSM or CDMA?


----------



## estreeter

I admit that I havent bothered to register my DFB with AQ, but its a little disappointing that the 'desktop app' still hasnt been released. No firmware updates ? How about an update to detect whether or not the DF is plugged into a Windows computer and give users some sort of preamp capability so they dont get a sonic blast with the volume slider at '10' ......


----------



## jegnyc

bflat said:


> Does this happen only when cell signal is on? If so, what band does your phone use? GSM or CDMA?




It happens when I switch to Airplane mode and turn wi-fi and Bluetooth off.


----------



## bflat

jegnyc said:


> It happens when I switch to Airplane mode and turn wi-fi and Bluetooth off.


 

 Bummer. It's hard to believe the issue is some sort of random manufacturing defect versus slight variations of internal specs for different carriers. My iPhone 7 Tmobile 10.0.0.2 works fine with DFR + official CCK. I use Apple Music and iAudiogate. No problems with cell and wifi turned on either. I doubt AudioQuest is going to get any help from Apple since DFR is not MFI certified. I suppose another possibility is that the CCK cable has undergone some version changes and perhaps specific versions have a problem. My CCK cable is at least 3 years old.


----------



## ContractorHei

Has anyone paired a Dragonfly Red with a HD600 and/or HD650? I'm not sure if the Dragonfly has enough juice to amp it properly so that's why I'm asking. I currently have a HD598 and am looking to try one of these out.


----------



## slackerpo

contractorhei said:


> Has anyone paired a Dragonfly Red with a HD600 and/or HD650? I'm not sure if the Dragonfly has enough juice to amp it properly so that's why I'm asking. I currently have a HD598 and am looking to try one of these out.


 
  
 i have. it can drive them, though im not shure if you would need more "authority" with them.
  
 ill check this weekend the hd650 again, and get back to you.


----------



## jugermaut

Hi everyone,
  
 I just bought a DragonFly Black to use in conjunction with my Nexus 6P, paired with an ATH MSR7. Device is working fine, detected by my audio player of choice (PowerAmp), and produces audio flawlessly through it. A question though...... I can't really..... appreciate a significant improvement in audio quality compared to the internal DAC of Nexus 6P. There is a sliiiiight advantage to DragonFly actually, provided that I'm not hallucinating. Is it my limit already to appreciate it? lol.
  
 A different story compared to the internal DAC of my Dell XPS 15 9550 though (worry not, I disabled all the effects, including MaxxAudio, prior to testing). Dragonfly is FAR more superior, even to my untrained ears.
  
 Anyone has the same statement as mine? Thanks.


----------



## meringo

Updated my iPad Air 2 to iOS 10 today. Now my dragonfly black doesn't work with it. Light stays red  

Anyone want a dragonfly black? Lol


----------



## iichigoz

For those with both the DFR and mojo, which one do you prefer?


----------



## west0ne

meringo said:


> Updated my iPad Air 2 to iOS 10 today. Now my dragonfly black doesn't work with it. Light stays red
> 
> Anyone want a dragonfly black? Lol




Are you using an Apple branded lightning to USB adapter and if so is it the USB3 version. I'm not an iDevice user myself but I want to warn my son as he does use iPhone/iPad with DFB.


----------



## SpiderNhan

jugermaut said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I just bought a DragonFly Black to use in conjunction with my Nexus 6P, paired with an ATH MSR7. Device is working fine, detected by my audio player of choice (PowerAmp), and produces audio flawlessly through it. A question though...... I can't really..... appreciate a significant improvement in audio quality compared to the internal DAC of Nexus 6P. There is a sliiiiight advantage to DragonFly actually, provided that I'm not hallucinating. Is it my limit already to appreciate it? lol.
> 
> ...



Try using USB Audio Player Pro. You can find a trial at the developer's website. Without UAPP your device is processing the sound before sending it to the DFB.


----------



## pkcpga

slackerpo said:


> i have. it can drive them, though im not shure if you would need more "authority" with them.
> 
> ill check this weekend the hd650 again, and get back to you.




I found the hd650 and hd800 will play at high enough volumes with the dfr, the dfr just doesn't power them well enough to keep sound stage and bass. They become bass light.


----------



## slackerpo

spidernhan said:


> Try using USB Audio Player Pro. You can find a trial at the developer's website. Without UAPP your device is processing the sound before sending it to the DFB.


 
  
 yeah try that, we're all waiting for an early fall update that audioquest promised about a month ago. we gotta stay put.
  


pkcpga said:


> I found the hd650 and hd800 will play at high enough volumes with the dfr, the dfr just doesn't power them well enough to keep sound stage and bass. They become bass light.


 
  
 yeah i would agree 100%. bass light is a great way to put it.
  
 although it serves fine with the dt1770 (250ohms) for genres like acoustic, folk, indie and electronic, classic imo. although for heavy treble and gain genres, it feels kinda lacking.


----------



## zept0sec

iichigoz said:


> For those with both the DFR and mojo, which one do you prefer?




I must admit I prefer my Mojo at this time. Portability goes to the DFR, but for now it can't play my 192/24 flac files in bit-perfect. Haven't sold it off in the hopes that support for that may be added in a future firmware release.


----------



## ilcg1

iichigoz said:


> For those with both the DFR and mojo, which one do you prefer?




Overall (ease of use, portability, price) liked dragonfly red better and returned mojo for now. Might buy mojo again depending on the modules they are going to release or chord might release even something similar to DF - who knows.


----------



## pinoyman

[/IMG]


----------



## pinoyman




----------



## pkcpga

iichigoz said:


> For those with both the DFR and mojo, which one do you prefer?



I prefer the mojo and returned the dfr, the dfr is fine for its price point but I prefer the extra detail and bass presence and ability to drive harder to drive headphones properly. Also returned the dfr for what was thought of as a defect with clicking sound but turns out it was just a compatibility issue with iPhone cck cable.


----------



## west0ne

iichigoz said:


> For those with both the DFR and mojo, which one do you prefer?


 
 Never actually owned the Mojo but have had the chance to borrow one to try. Overall the Mojo had the better sound and is more detailed/spacious but I'm not even sure it is fair to compare the two. They have a different form factor, different size and different price range.
  
 The DFR works well as an on the go device with your mobile phone, it does only one thing and it does it well, it is small enough for it, along with you phone to still be pocketable. The Mojo has more inputs, more outputs and wider format support, it has it's own battery and when stacked with another device is portable but not really pocketable.


----------



## pinoyman




----------



## pinoyman

I agree ^


----------



## g0bl0k

Finally got the DFR, so far so good, using with Note 4 and UAPP, like others have said...it is loud loud louddddd.
 With my DFR purchase, I also got the coupon code for 60-day Roon membership and don't plan to use it. If someone wants it, pm me and code is yours...first come first serve.


----------



## jugermaut

Will do. Damn that app is quite pricey. Have been using PowerAmp since ever. If it indeed gives me a notable difference, might need to shell some for the app. Trying it soon.


----------



## ContractorHei

pkcpga said:


> I found the hd650 and hd800 will play at high enough volumes with the dfr, the dfr just doesn't power them well enough to keep sound stage and bass. They become bass light.


 
 Isn't this inherit with Sabre DACS? I mean they do give the bass a lil punch, but it really shines in the higher ranges.
  


> Originally Posted by *slackerpo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> yeah i would agree 100%. bass light is a great way to put it.
> 
> although it serves fine with the dt1770 (250ohms) for genres like acoustic, folk, indie and electronic, classic imo. although for heavy treble and gain genres, it feels kinda lacking.


 
 I like the Dragonfly signature, though I admit I haven't heard anything other than my Xonar DX. Would adding a dedicated amp be a good idea? Or should I look into one of those stacks?
  
 Again thanks to both of you.


----------



## pkcpga

contractorhei said:


> Isn't this inherit with Sabre DACS? I mean they do give the bass a lil punch, but it really shines in the higher ranges.
> 
> That is inherit sound, quick bass with a little less punch, but combine that with not enough power to properly drive the hd650 and hd800 they become thin sounding with very little bass presence at all, which makes the highs sound further extended or harsh to my ears since there's no balance with extending the low end as well.
> 
> ...


----------



## ContractorHei

pkcpga said:


> That is inherit sound, quick bass with a little less punch, but combine that with not enough power to properly drive the hd650 and hd800 they become thin sounding with very little bass presence at all, which makes the highs sound further extended or harsh to my ears since there's no balance with extending the low end as well.


 
 I see, so in general you feel like the DFR isn't a good pair with the HD650?
  
 I currently have a HD598 which really shines in the higher ranges and the DFR compliments it well imo. But I would love to get a lil more bass keeping the good midrange. The HD600 or HD650 seems to fit the bill but they'll require an amp to really shine from what I'm reading here.
  


> If you add a dedicated amp to the line than you take away the purpose for the dfr or portability and you might as well just go with a mojo or something similar, like I did.


 
 I know, but that'll be for home use only. I got the Red for convenience as I take the Red with me to work and I don't need an amp there since I'm using IEHs.
 The Mojo is a bit too expensive imo and I don't like the design.


----------



## pkcpga

contractorhei said:


> I see, so in general you feel like the DFR isn't a good pair with the HD650?
> 
> I currently have a HD598 which really shines in the higher ranges and the DFR compliments it well imo. But I would love to get a lil more bass keeping the good midrange. The HD600 or HD650 seems to fit the bill but they'll require an amp to really shine from what I'm reading here.
> 
> ...




If your using it mostly at home, people seem to like the burson air with hd's. It's not battery powered, presuming that's what you don't like about the mojo but the air requires too much power for it to be used mobile only on a labtop or desktop, but it has a decent amp without requiring its own battery or direct power connection.


----------



## graben

Just got the red yesterday. Sounds great and a great bargain at 200.


----------



## LunaC

west0ne said:


> If you set the volume to 100% it can feed into an external amp. I've used mine with the Vali 2.




Often, you will find that you can set the gain higher on the tube amp and use the excellent attenuation of the DFR as long as noise isn't an issue. It will allow more liquidity that a tube provides at lower gain settings


----------



## SearchOfSub

I'm selling my DFR since I decided to keep a higher end dac/amp that I have. It has very low hours with Tidal 2 month trial etc. Sold as original packaging. Selling for $110.00 but local pick up only in Los Angeles, CA area. Please PM me if interested. Thanks.


----------



## kartik7405

Anyone have ever compared the Dragonfly new Portable DAC with Cozoy DAC lineup like Astrapi / Aegis ??


----------



## Kammex

Just got my Dragonfly Black and the jack seems loose. It goes up and down by 1mm and makes a click sound.
Does anyone else experience this?


----------



## Devodonaldson

kammex said:


> Just got my Dragonfly Black and the jack seems loose. It goes up and down by 1mm and makes a click sound.
> Does anyone else experience this?



Same thing happens with my dfr. Does not affect the function. It didn't happen out the box. But plugging and unplugging, it ended up a lil loose, I believe. But it should be fine.


----------



## Kammex

devodonaldson said:


> Same thing happens with my dfr. Does not affect the function. It didn't happen out the box. But plugging and unplugging, it ended up a lil loose, I believe. But it should be fine.




It just started today after 4 days, so you're right. Thanks!


----------



## Bianci1969

Hello Kammex – 
  
 Sorry for this. Have you contacted us directly at info@audioquest.com ? If this is out of spec we can work with you to make sure the product gets exchanged (if need be). 
  
 Regards, 
  
 Steve Silberman
 AudioQuest


----------



## Kammex

bianci1969 said:


> Hello Kammex –
> 
> Sorry for this. Have you contacted us directly at info@audioquest.com ? If this is out of spec we can work with you to make sure the product gets exchanged (if need be).
> 
> ...



Thank you for your concern! I don't think it will be a problem, but I'll be sure to contact you if any issues arise.


----------



## Bianci1969

You're welcome. The case is a cosmetic enclosure that at the headphone end has a cap which is compressed and glued into place. It's possible that it wasn't fully inserted when assembled. Please stay in touch if you need anything. 
  
 Steve


----------



## estreeter

A lot of talk in this thread about how much brighter the DFR is over the Black (more detailed, better separation, but brighter). I watch a lot of Zeos Pantera's sound demos and he seems to have moved from headphones to speakers in the last couple of months. I'd be interested to hear *a DFR owner's impression *of the sound in this demo :
  

  
 I'm well aware of the perils of trying to make judgements based on compressed YT vids, particularly when it comes to speakers. Everything from his room / microphones to my playback gear will change what Mr Z is hearing from those speakers, but they sound bright to me and thats from DFB into Senn CX5.00 - not harsh, but definitely 'forward'. Perhaps it's his track choices, but those arent speakers I'd choose unless I could be guaranteed 8-9 hours sleep each and every night  
  
 One man's 'engaging and lively' is another man's in-your-face, but if the Red only enhances the character of gear like this it wouldnt be my next DAC. Zeos is clearly enamoured of his ELACs, so it might simply be that I need to get another 2-3 hours sleep a night  
  
 Feedback most welcome.
  
 Edit : please note that I'm not criticizing a product I dont own, and quality gear is supposed to reflect the source material - I linked to this vid simply to highlight that if something sounds bright through the Black, I assume that it will even more so via the Red. Like all assumptions, I'm happy to see that debated.


----------



## M J W

donunus said:


> follow up: doing a comparison on my diy horns of the df red against the lhlabs go1000 fully warmed up and it is a different story. The go1k has more depth, meat but is just as detailed and sounds better overall. I'm thinking with the geek out, warm up is a significant factor since it is a class A design and since it wasnt warm when tested out of my house with the magnepans, it was not sounding as good as it could while when tested on my system, it was already connected for at least a day when tested. I just remembered that it was a class A design and warm up is critical for this type of thing.


 
 For the extra $100 do you reckon the GOV2 would be worth it over the DFR & GO1K? I just want a DAC for the same reason as GR8soundz stated, not wanting to waste desk space. I'll be using MA900 if that's any help.


----------



## psikey

estreeter said:


> Feedback most welcome.


 
  
 All I can say is that listening via my Dell XPS 13 with DFR to my Shure SE846's sounds great. I quite like his mix of music too. Can't fault anything I'm hearing. Actually made me start reading up about the speakers.


----------



## dan.gheorghe

The Dragonfly Red is full of energy and quite addictive. My full review here.


----------



## donunus

m j w said:


> For the extra $100 do you reckon the GOV2 would be worth it over the DFR & GO1K? I just want a DAC for the same reason as GR8soundz stated, not wanting to waste desk space. I'll be using MA900 if that's any help.


 
 Haven't done a direct comparison against the GOV2 so I cannot say


----------



## simonecosta75

hello to all guys
 there is an application that functions as an equalizer for tidal stream on apple ios (iphone 6s) ?

 thx


----------



## graben

Does anyone else prefer the dragonfly using uapp with bitperfect on android over foobar with wasapi on a windows laptop?


----------



## lombardox

I haven't done a direct comparison but it sounds pretty awesome in bit perfect mode with the DFR. As of today's update Qobuz is now directly integrated in the app. Nice! 



graben said:


> Does anyone else prefer the dragonfly using uapp with bitperfect on android over foobar with wasapi on a windows laptop?


----------



## cribeiro

dan.gheorghe said:


> The Dragonfly Red is full of energy and quite addictive. My full review here.


 

 Cons (as a device also developed "for mobile phone use"):
 it is missing the classical support of headset functionality
 Android support is not guaranteed
 With Android phones, tt is not possible to charge the phone while in use


----------



## dan.gheorghe

cribeiro said:


> Cons (as a device developed "for mobile phone use"):
> it is missing the classical support of headset functionality
> Android support is not guaranteed


 
 It's not only developed for mobile  phone use. That is just one of the purposes. Headset? What do you mean?How would you want that implemented in Dragonfly? I don't want headset functionality in a dac/amp product (at this size) that is supposedly made for audiophiles. In audio circuitry less is always more.


----------



## cribeiro

dan.gheorghe said:


> It's not only developed for mobile use. That is just one of the purposes. Headset? What do you mean?How would you want that implemented in Dragonfly? I don't want headset functionality in a dac/amp product (at this size) that is supposedly made for audiophiles. In audio circuitry less is always more.


 
 Corrected with an "also" for peace of mind. Nevertheless, I understand that was the main intention when developing the Red and Black, after the success of the 1.2.
 Regarding the headset functionality, I think it does not need lengthy explanations: this is what the stock earbuds (with mic and button(s) ) do. As soon as I use my phone to listen to music, this is a "natural evolution" in my eyes. I do not buy the argument about "audio exclusivity", "audiophility"and so on. Come on, this is a piece of gear to be used with a phone, not with a "magic bit-perfect dedicated transport". Audiophiles laughed at DAPs not so long ago (and at basically any new development in the past decades).


----------



## dan.gheorghe

cribeiro said:


> Corrected with an "also" for peace of mind. Nevertheless, I understand that was the main intention when developing the Red and Black, after the success of the 1.2.
> Regarding the headset functionality, I think it does not need lengthy explanations: this is what the stock earbuds (with mic and button(s) ) do. As soon as I use my phone to listen to music, this is a "natural evolution" in my eyes. I do not buy the argument about "audio exclusivity", "audiophility"and so on. Come on, this is a piece of gear to be used with a phone, not with a "magic bit-perfect dedicated transport". Audiophiles laughed at DAPs not so long ago (and at basically any new development in the past decades).


 
 As I stated in the review this is not just for phone use. It  sounds wonderful as dac/amp directly from laptop for my office setup. I don't think that  if you squeezed inside mic functionality it would sound as awesome. Personally, I don't think I would buy it. However, my question is.....if it is inserted in the phone in your described case, why not insert the headset directly into the phone? I suppose just for the comfort of not switching.


----------



## thamasha69

simonecosta75 said:


> hello to all guys
> there is an application that functions as an equalizer for tidal stream on apple ios (iphone 6s) ?
> 
> 
> thx




If you are jailbroken you can use the tweak EqualizerEverywhere to add a system wide EQ to control center. It will work with any audio coming from the phone as well as thru USB DAC (I tested with DF Black and CCK).


----------



## headfry

Check out Sennheiser's Captune, which allows eq of Tidal streams:



https://en-us.sennheiser.com/captune-headphone-sound-app


----------



## rhadorn

From Cribeiro:
  
 Cons (as a device developed "for mobile phone use"):
 it is missing the classical support of headset functionality
 Android support is not guaranteed
  
  
 To Cribeireo:
  
 I agree with gheorge. In the audio world, less is often more.I would not expect from a firm trying to eliminate all external disturbances (see the Jitterbug) to add functions to their device, which pretty well could produce new digital noise. 
  
 Audioquest aims at producing an enjoyable DAC-AMP (just avoiding to use the word audiophile, which triggers your despise). Experience shows that much of sound quality was ever again sacrificed to convenience of use, The reconquest of quality is a permanent struggle. I hope Audioquest will resist the so called 'pressure of the mass market' (you, Cribeiro) and continue to deliver gear mainly aimed ad sound quality.
  
 When I listen to music from my phone using DFR, Jitterbug and Grado Gr10, I don't want to be disturbed by phone calls anyway. If you would, then you eventually don't need the DF.


----------



## cribeiro

rhadorn said:


> I agree with gheorge. In the audio world, less is often more.I would not expect from a firm trying to eliminate all external disturbances (see the Jitterbug) to add functions to their device, which pretty well could produce new digital noise.
> 
> Audioquest aims at producing an enjoyable DAC-AMP (just avoiding to use the word audiophile, which triggers your despise). Experience shows that much of sound quality was ever again sacrificed to convenience of use, The reconquest of quality is a permanent struggle. I hope Audioquest will resist the so called 'pressure of the mass market' (you, Cribeiro) and continue to deliver gear mainly aimed ad sound quality.
> 
> When I listen to music from my phone using DFR, Jitterbug and Grado Gr10, I don't want to be disturbed by phone calls anyway. If you would, then you eventually don't need the DF.


 
 No audiophile despise from my side. I am just saying that you can have a conservative or an innovative view and I feel your view is rather conservative, although you are looking at a quite innovative piece of hardware. I found the use of the term "audiophile" as an argument against innovation, so I just threw in a couple of examples using the same argument.
 Before the Dragonfly hit the market, you could as well apply your argument against it (and I quote you here, just adding something in between): *Experience shows that much of sound quality was ever again sacrificed to convenience of use - *so why should AQ build such a small DAC-AMP* - I hope Audioquest will resist the so called 'pressure of the mass market' and continue to deliver gear mainly aimed at sound quality - *instead of "convenient size"..
 Do you see my point? You say "mainly aimed at sound quality" and I agree. But "mainly" does not imply to give up everything else. My point is: Do not sacrifice sound quality, but add features and convenience of use. I believe that is exactly what AQ is doing and actually the only "raison d'être" for the Dragonfly.
  
 We can also look at the same argument from a different perspective: you can find today high-end IEMs with headset functionality. If you review such IEMs and considering your argument, the headset functionality on such IEM would be listed as a "con" and the manufacturer is wrong, as they should rather focus on sound quality - if you want to pick a call, you can then use the stock earbuds anyway...
  
 Again, Audioquest aims at a DAC-AMP for use with mobile phones and it is quite natural that, if you plug your headset into the Dragonfly, you do not want to be plugging and unplugging depending on the use. The first step and the most important part is of course to get the sound right, which they did wonderfully. But I bet they will be considering the headset functionality within the next couple of years. Once they do, they will include it without sound degradation, that is obvious. I still do not see why you are against it.


----------



## cribeiro

rhadorn said:


> When I listen to music from my phone using DFR, Jitterbug and Grado Gr10, I don't want to be disturbed by phone calls anyway. If you would, then* you eventually don't need the DF*.


 
 Maybe my "problem" is that I have to balance the fact that I am an "audiophile" with taking care of my kids, my wife, my work... Although I can just isolate from time to time during a couple of hours to enjoy music or a movie, I still want to have the same good sound quality during more casual listening, because my phone's headphone output simply sucks (HTC One M8). What can I do, I have a life...
 Besides, it is not just calls. As I mentioned, you can also pause and skip to the next/previous song. Call that "audiophile convenience", or call that "saving precious battery which cannot be charged at the same time" (btw. another "con" I just added to my list in my post above).


----------



## dan.gheorghe

There are too many products made only for convenience, comfort and looks without any regard to sound quality. The market is full of those products... and their targed is different. I don't think I've seen any dac/amp portable combo with the support for headsets and I really don't see the need.


----------



## cribeiro

dan.gheorghe said:


> There are too many products made only for convenience, comfort and looks without any regard to sound quality. The market is full of those products... and their targed is different. I don't think I've seen any dac/amp portable combo with the support for headsets and I really don't see the need.


 
 Ok, you see no point in considering and replying to my arguments above. Still, I will actually reply to what you write:
  
 http://www.shure.com/americas/products/accessories/earphones/earphone-headphone-cables/m-mplus-cables
  
 http://pro.ultimateears.com/products/custom-accessories/cases-cables
  
 Are those cables also "made only for convenience, comfort and looks without any regard to sound quality"?
  
 I have not seen any portable dac/amp with headset support either, but I could bet manufacturers are already looking into it. Of course they will not tell you because they want you to buy now. Once the new product comes out, they will show you the need.
  
 For the record, I am not against the Dragonfly at all, I am really happy to have such an option (again, the headphone output of my phone sucks...) with jaw-dropping sound quality. I think it is allowed to ask for more and listed my personal list of "cons", that is all. Now you come and try to convince me I am wrong, or I do not care enough for sound quality so I should look elsewhere for "convenience products without any regard to sound quality". Am I not worthy because of such thoughts?


----------



## dan.gheorghe

cribeiro said:


> Ok, you see no point in considering and replying to my arguments above. Still, I will actually reply to what you write:
> 
> http://www.shure.com/americas/products/accessories/earphones/earphone-headphone-cables/m-mplus-cables
> 
> ...


 
 I think you took it too personally. I think that there is a reason why we haven't seen any dacs/amps combos with headset functionality. I think it's quite hard to integrate a mic input on a headphone output without greatly interfering with the SNR, THD, etc, sound quality in general. Now if someone manages to achieve a no compromise solution, well kudos for them, however I am not sure that this is an actual market need. Maybe I am wrong, I don't have all the data regarding this issue, but you are the first I encountered who wants this functionality from a product in this category.
  
 The cables you mentioned are very useful and can be used directly with the phone / laptop /tablet, etc.


----------



## fate64

Anyone compare the black to the mono price dac?


----------



## drummguy26

headfry said:


> Check out Sennheiser's Captune, which allows eq of Tidal streams:
> 
> 
> 
> https://en-us.sennheiser.com/captune-headphone-sound-app


 

 Man, I got all excited about this, but when I downloaded it just now I found out it doesn't have support for offline mode.... So all the Tidal music I have saved offline isn't accessible through CapTune. Sucks....


----------



## cribeiro

dan.gheorghe said:


> I think you took it too personally. I think that there is a reason why we haven't seen any dacs/amps combos with headset functionality. I think it's quite hard to integrate a mic input on a headphone output without greatly interfering with the SNR, THD, etc, sound quality in general. Now if someone manages to achieve a no compromise solution, well kudos for them, however I am not sure that this is an actual market need. Maybe I am wrong, I don't have all the data regarding this issue, but you are the first I encountered who wants this functionality from a product in this category.


 
 You basically bashed me because my "cons" are nonsense and I care more about convenience than SQ, so I should look elsewhere because I am "mass market". Yes, I took it personally 
 Few years ago, nobody would expect high-end sound out of a USB Stick. Back then, somebody also said "I think there is a good reason for that, PC noise and so on". At some point, somebody else said "wait, I have an idea"... Catch my drift? 
 Considering the widespread use of such headsets (also in high-end regions as I linked), I think there is a market for it.
 Many products hit the market before customers "want such a functionality".  Look at it from the other side: such functionality might result in the "mass market" buying the product and discovering what music really sounds like.


----------



## rhadorn

Hi Cribeiro,
  
Please, continue caring for your wife and children!
  
It seems our stances are not such far apart. I am just a bit more suspicious than you as to the power of Technology.
  
For sure, I could live with a dac/amp which lets through commands from headsets, *under the condition that this has no effect on sound quality*. In this matter, I am actually conservative.
That condition is not an easy one to verify. Over the years, I have witnessed a lot of technical miracles, whose miraculous character ended with the advertisement. Tenths of years were necessary to come to grips with the flaws of CD technology, and the journey is not yet finished. As soon as new opportunities open, you get new cheats (high res files which are just blown up red book files for example).
  
Every technical device is the result of compromises, where physical limitations, knowledge limitations, economical limitations and ... marketing potential all play a role. 'Convenience' is what sells best, at the moment. And there are a lot of examples of convenient techniques which were put on the market at the cost of quality. This makes me cautious, conservative if you prefer. VHS won over Betamax just because they entered mass production first and could drop the prices; Betamax was actually better.
  
A firm adding a functionality to a device  to sell more pieces would normally not admit that it compromises a bit of its fundamental quality (in our case, sound quality). The ads don't inform the customer about the compromises made during the development of the device. So the only thing I can do is to make a statement about my preferences: Sound quality. 
  
I am grateful to Gordon Rankin for having developed that new USB protocol for audio information and to Audioquest for having started a new trend on that ground. This could have happened 10 years earlier if the audio industry had really been primarily interested in delivering sound quality.
  
The jitterbug is also a good move (correcting for that other miracle, the digitally noisy information technology). Other people make efforts on other levels to cure some ill-developed techniques sold as Dulcamare's life elixir... Look for example at http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/694-comprehensive-q-mqa-s-bob-stuart/.
  
Good luck!


----------



## dan.gheorghe

cribeiro said:


> You basically bashed me because my "cons" are nonsense and I care more about convenience than SQ, so I should look elsewhere because I am "mass market". Yes, I took it personally
> Few years ago, nobody would expect high-end sound out of a USB Stick. Back then, somebody also said "I think there is a good reason for that, PC noise and so on". At some point, somebody else said "wait, I have an idea"... Catch my drift?
> Considering the widespread use of such headsets (also in high-end regions as I linked), I think there is a market for it.
> Many products hit the market before customers "want such a functionality".  Look at it from the other side: such functionality might result in the "mass market" buying the product and discovering what music really sounds like.


 
 I didn't bash you. The fact that I don't agree with you isn't bashing. I am just afraid that good companies will make compromises to the sound quality for the mass market, that's all. Also I don't see the headset option as a must have feature, and as I said before, I think it would be very hard not to take away from the sound quality if on the headphone output you also insert a mic input. Again no one has this option. So your added con would be available for *every  dac/amp * products on the market today. Not sure that is a fair con... Maybe a wish for a feature request...
  
 However, that is my opinion and not agreeing with you doesn't mean I am bashing you. I am sorry I gave you that impression. It's OK for 2 or more people to have different opinions.


----------



## drykoke

cribeiro said:


> Considering the widespread use of such headsets (also in high-end regions as I linked), I think there is a market for it.
> Many products hit the market before customers "want such a functionality".  Look at it from the other side: such functionality might result in the "mass market" buying the product and discovering what music really sounds like.


 
 This topic has been previously discussed in this thread. No one could name a high quality portable DAC/Amp that has the functions you require. No, not even Mojo, GeekOut, Oppo etc.
  
 The only plausible but expensive option was apparently Audeze Sine headphones, which when I last checked was approximately USD 500.
  
 Maybe you could start a thread somewhere else about this. It isn't an issue specific to DFR or DFB, and if you want to criticize Audioquest, you should also be criticizing all other manufacturers who make products that don't meet your particular requirements.


----------



## bflat

You are a "true" audiophile if you do the following routine:

Buy new audio equipment and proclaim it to be perfect and better than anything you heard before
A few days later note a couple issues but still proclaim how you love it anyway
A week later as resentment grows the issues become "tolerable"
A month later, the hate starts and the issues are indictments of how bad the company is
When the "terrible" company releases version X of the same product you immediately buy
Repeat cycle


----------



## drummguy26

bflat said:


> You are a "true" audiophile if you do the following routine:
> 
> Buy new audio equipment and proclaim it to be perfect and better than anything you heard before
> A few days later note a couple issues but still proclaim how you love it anyway
> ...


 

 That is so frikkin true and hilarious


----------



## MisterMudd

Second that. How funny.


----------



## cribeiro

rhadorn said:


> It seems our stances are not such far apart. I am just a bit more suspicious than you as to the power of Technology.


 
 I am sure about that. I am also a very optimistic guy  I agree with your view, but development needs the mass market and "convenience", and it is a path that does not go straight, but the trend is positive   Thanks for the interesting link!


----------



## cribeiro

dan.gheorghe said:


> So your added con would be available for *every  dac/amp * products on the market today. Not sure that is a fair con... Maybe a wish for a feature request...
> However, that is my opinion and not agreeing with you doesn't mean I am bashing you. I am sorry I gave you that impression. It's OK for 2 or more people to have different opinions.


----------



## cribeiro

drykoke said:


> t isn't an issue specific to DFR or DFB, and if you want to criticize Audioquest, you should also be criticizing all other manufacturers who make products that don't meet your particular requirements.


 
 I am well aware of that, and my criticism (I would prefer "wish-list", like Dan said) extends indeed to all other manufacturers. The DFR is at the moment my preferred choice, so I post here. I thought it is a "discussion thread" open to praise and criticism, and not a "fanboy appreciation thread".
 You say this is "my particular requirement", yet every phone's headphone socket includes it. I am involved in software and hardware development (totally different industry, though) and I can tell you this is not a matter of "personal requirements". It is a matter of product development for a market that will be served, so this feature has to be considered in the process.
 Thus, the key question in this regard is: is it reasonable to develop a piece of gear for computers and mobile phones that defeats part of the functionality already available on every (also high-end) headset and phone's headphone socket?
 The answer is: it depends. But if it can be done without compromising sound quality or serious price increase, it is not reasonable. There are many other factors that affect such a decision, but I would expect any developer working on this field is aware of typical headset functionality, so they have probably considered the possibility. There are several possible reasons why no manufacturer provides this feature at the moment: too expensive, too difficult, compromises sound quality, takes too long to implement and we have deadlines, etc.
 Still, I am positive about seeing it implemented in the near future - unless phone manufacturers start producing phones that sound as good as the DFR. Or everybody follows Apple and we will cry looking for a headphone out (some will even drill one into their phones...).
 I am ready to give up the headset/skip button feature for the sake of better sound quality, but I can still say I am missing it and it is a (convenience) handicap.
  
 Let's move on 
 Anybody knows if the DFR can properly drive the Nighthawk headphones from Audioquest? My experience with DFR+Sennheiser 650 was quite disappointing...


----------



## estreeter

bflat said:


> You are a "true" audiophile if you do the following routine:
> 
> Buy new audio equipment and proclaim it to be perfect and better than anything you heard before
> A few days later note a couple issues but still proclaim how you love it anyway
> ...


 
  
 Chord Hugo -> Hugo TT -> Mojo ?
  
 As a former Hugo owner, I'd happily buy another at the 'right' price, but I saw it go from 'must have' to 'OMG - you paid HOW much ?' on Head-Fi. I'm sure the DAC itself is as capable as it was the day it was released, but its incredible how quickly many here will get on the hate bandwagon as soon as it rolls out of the barn.


----------



## Duncan

FWIW the LG B&O DAC has pass-thru functionality for mic usage, so the feature does exist, then again, that isn't exactly a one device fits all type item... 

I think it's more a problem of USB OTG than that the designers don't want to add it.


----------



## west0ne

USB soundcards will often have mic input, and providing they don't exceed the power requirements of the USB OTG port they will work on Android to provide both audio out and mic in. Not sure if they do the same with iOS. I don't know as they provide transport controls through the headset though. Doesn't one of the Fiio DAC/Amps have transport controls that pass through to the phone?
  
 I have an Asus Xonar U3 USB stick that I bought to go with an old laptop, it has audio out, mic in and provides an optical output; all functions work on my Android phone, the sound quality is nowhere near that of the Dragonfly but it was less than £20 and is a USB stick that isn't much larger than the Dragonfly.


----------



## brent75

cribeiro said:


> Let's move on
> Anybody knows if the DFR can properly drive the Nighthawk headphones from Audioquest? My experience with DFR+Sennheiser 650 was quite disappointing...


 
  
 Easily - I was at the Audioquest booth yesterday at RMAF and they're running the Nighthawk off the DFB...it sounded great.


----------



## slackerpo

where is the update?


----------



## UNOE

west0ne said:


> USB soundcards will often have mic input, and providing they don't exceed the power requirements of the USB OTG port they will work on Android to provide both audio out and mic in. Not sure if they do the same with iOS. I don't know as they provide transport controls through the headset though. Doesn't one of the Fiio DAC/Amps have transport controls that pass through to the phone?
> 
> I have an Asus Xonar U3 USB stick that I bought to go with an old laptop, it has audio out, mic in and provides an optical output; all functions work on my Android phone, the sound quality is nowhere near that of the Dragonfly but it was less than £20 and is a USB stick that isn't much larger than the Dragonfly.




I think the new lighting $9 adapter had mic in for iOS.


----------



## Duncan

unoe said:


> I think the new lighting $9 adapter had mic in for iOS.


no, but it has a trrs for plugging in such ear / headphones


----------



## UNOE

Im reading it does work with Mic


----------



## west0ne

unoe said:


> Im reading it does work with Mic


 
 The official Apple adapter has an ADC so will work with headsets that have the mic function; it doesn't have its own mic.


----------



## good sound

slackerpo said:


> where is the update?




Yes, where is the update? Hopefully coming very soon.


----------



## WutDaFunk

good sound said:


> Yes, where is the update? Hopefully coming very soon.


Haven't checked this thread in a while... Do we know anything about the update, besides the fall release schedule?


----------



## Aradea

Guys I have a question.

I've noted that the Black has 1.2v output voltage, while the Red has 2.1v.
When we use the dragonflies as a DAC only and connect them to an amp, how will the output voltage rating affects the sound?
I mean does having a higher output voltage resulting a more forward sound, bigger imaging, etc. and the lower voltage will result the oppossing (laid back sound, not so big imaging and so forth)??

Appreciate your input!


----------



## west0ne

aradea said:


> Guys I have a question.
> 
> I've noted that the Black has 1.2v output voltage, while the Red has 2.1v.
> When we use the dragonflies as a DAC only and connect them to an amp, how will the output voltage rating affects the sound?
> ...


 
 The Red & Black use different DAC chips and are setup differently so regardless of voltage they were never going to sound the same. All I can say is that I've run my Black through my Vali 2 amp and it sounds pretty good. It doesn't sound exactly the same as it does with the internal amp as the Vali is a tube hybrid so it does add its own flavour to the sound.
  
 I would guess that the differences in the DAC setup is going to be more influential than the output voltage.


----------



## Aradea

Thanks west0ne!

In the past I've used the dacport LX to my BH crack and found that the LX makes a quite in-ur-face sound compared to other dac/amp.
I just want to avoid the same presentation, thinking whether or not has something to do with the output voltage


----------



## CactusPete23

aradea said:


> Guys I have a question.
> 
> I've noted that the Black has 1.2v output voltage, while the Red has 2.1v.
> When we use the dragonflies as a DAC only and connect them to an amp, how will the output voltage rating affects the sound?
> ...


 
 IMHO, The increased voltage of any amp vs another is simply increased power output.   That measurement should not affect the sound, unless your headphones are not being driven with enough power to meet your listening needs; In that case you'll notice improved sound with the added power/volume.


----------



## cribeiro

cactuspete23 said:


> IMHO, The increased voltage of any amp vs another is simply increased power output.   That measurement should not affect the sound, unless your headphones are not being driven with enough power to meet your listening needs; In that case you'll notice improved sound with the added power/volume.


 
 Actually, the increased voltage can be a problem, because you might overdrive the input stage of the amplifier and cause very audible clipping artifacts. I believe 2,1V is already above line-level specification. A line-level input has a high impedance and will not drain any power, just "read-out" the voltage value.
 On the other side, you want to use the highest voltage accepted by the input stage (without clipping) to minimize noise.
 But for the original question, I believe the voltage difference between DFR und DFB is basically irrelevant for your purposes.


----------



## CactusPete23

cribeiro said:


> Actually, the increased voltage can be a problem, because you might overdrive the input stage of the amplifier and cause very audible clipping artifacts. I believe 2,1V is already above line-level specification. A line-level input has a high impedance and will not drain any power, just "read-out" the voltage value.


 
 I see... Thanks for correcting my post.   By the way, does this only apply if you are using another amp after the DF's rather than directly driving the headphones with one of the DF's ?


----------



## cribeiro

cactuspete23 said:


> By the way, does this only apply if you are using another amp after the DF's rather than directly driving the headphones with one of the DF's ?


 
 Yes, this applies only when using the DF as a DAC/preamp, that is, connected to another amplifier (which then acts as a "power amplifier").  It does not apply if the DF drivers the headphones directly, because the DF will have to deliver power to them.


----------



## CactusPete23

Wh


cribeiro said:


> This applies when using the DF as a DAC/preamp. As soon as you directly connect headphones to it, you use them additionally as "power amplifier" and it will have to deliver power to drive them.


 
 Sorry, I don't follow you...   The 2.1v is the max output of the DFR's headphone amp.   How is that the "input stage of the amplifier" when DFR is directly driving headphones ?


----------



## cribeiro

cactuspete23 said:


> Wh
> Sorry, I don't follow you...


 
 No wonder... I did not read your question properly. Sorry! I am going back to edit my answer.
 EDIT: Better now?


----------



## LunaC

unoe said:


> Im reading it does work with Mic




I think they misread your post in thinking you said it had a mic, not the mic in. It works well with my IEM with 4ring and with playback controls. 

I wished the DFR had a few buttons on it sometimes, more so than mic pass thru.


----------



## JoeDoe

Any iPhone users notice a performance improvement with the release of IOS 10? With iOS 9, the DFR would get all kinds of pops and blips from my
6S and I'm wondering if thats been fixed in the new OS.


----------



## brent75

I was in Colorado this past week, coincidentally the same time as RMAF, so I attended on Friday -- it was my first audio show and I had a blast. I started the day by attending a seminar/discussion moderated by Darko, and one of the guest panelists was Audioquest's Steve Silberman (he posts on here as @Bianci1969).
  
 I spent a fair amount of time catching up with him after the panel -- he was super down to earth and enjoyable to talk to. I later went by the Audioquest booth and finally got to listen to the Black (I've only ever heard the Red, because I own it)...plus the Nighthawk for the first time (great headphone)...plus something else Audioquest has up their sleeves and will unveil shortly.
  
 All in all it was a great time, and Audioquest made a great showing.


----------



## pinoyman

dan.gheorghe said:


> The Dragonfly Red is full of energy and quite addictive. My full review here.




Thanks for sharing.
Let me share this to my FB group;

FAC / Filipino Audiophile Club


----------



## drummguy26

brent75 said:


> ...plus something else Audioquest has up their sleeves and will unveil shortly.


 
  
 You wouldn't mind divulging this information now would you?? =P  Without saying much about it though, is it a version 2.0 of the Red or something similar? At the very least, would you say you were impressed/pleased with it and something we all should look forward to?


----------



## brent75

drummguy26 said:


> You wouldn't mind divulging this information now would you?? =P  Without saying much about it though, is it a version 2.0 of the Red or something similar? At the very least, would you say you were impressed/pleased with it and something we all should look forward to?


 
  
 I wasn't sure if I should talk about it because the reps were a little "this isn't official official yet, but it will be very soon - hopefully November"...but it's not like I signed a non-disclosure, and it was on display/ready for trial at RMAF. A quick search on this board reveals it HAS been talked about, so it's probably fair game.
  
 It's the new Night Owl - the closed back version of the Night Hawk headphone. It was super comfortable and sounded great (I was listening through the DFR). It sounded very open for a closed back. And the cool thing was it comes with two sets of swappable ear pads to alleviate immediately feeling like you have to mod...and the openings are actually oval shaped like our ears.


----------



## good sound

Did you happen to ask when the update is going to be available?


----------



## brent75

good sound said:


> Did you happen to ask when the update is going to be available?


 
  
 Update for the DFR/DFB, I presume? Sorry - I didn't really talk to them about those devices. And I haven't really been paying attention to this thread recently, so I didn't know an update was in the works.


----------



## good sound

brent75 said:


> good sound said:
> 
> 
> > Did you happen to ask when the update is going to be available?
> ...




Yes, the promised update for DFR/DFB. This update will supposedly fix the volume issue when running direct from Android to the Dragonfly without a third party app such as UAPP.


----------



## drummguy26

brent75 said:


> I wasn't sure if I should talk about it because the reps were a little "this isn't official official yet, but it will be very soon - hopefully November"...but it's not like I signed a non-disclosure, and it was on display/ready for trial at RMAF. A quick search on this board reveals it HAS been talked about, so it's probably fair game.
> 
> It's the new Night Owl - the closed back version of the Night Hawk headphone. It was super comfortable and sounded great (I was listening through the DFR). It sounded very open for a closed back. And the cool thing was it comes with two sets of swappable ear pads to alleviate immediately feeling like you have to mod...and the openings are actually oval shaped like our ears.


 

 That's pretty awesome. Maybe I'll get to play around with it at CanJam NYC if AQ is there. Thanks for the info!


----------



## nangs

I have a Oneplus 3, how would I use it with my phone if it has a USB type c port instead of micro usb...?


----------



## west0ne

nangs said:


> I have a Oneplus 3, how would I use it with my phone if it has a USB type c port instead of micro usb...?




You will need a USB-C OTG adapter, the exact same principle as the USB Micro OTG but with the C type plug. You can pick one up on Amazon. Get a good quality cable as there have been problems reported with some of the cheaper USB-C cables.


----------



## nangs

Thank you. One more thing... Can I use the Dragonfly black with spotify or only the usb audio player pro app? I dont have music on my sdcard so I stream it. If I use anything other than the usb audio player app, will it just use my inbuilt dac/amp?


----------



## nirudhap

nangs said:


> Thank you. One more thing... Can I use the Dragonfly black with spotify or only the usb audio player pro app? I dont have music on my sdcard so I stream it. If I use anything other than the usb audio player app, will it just use my inbuilt dac/amp?


 
 You can use it without UAPP BUT there are some compromises
  
 - stock Android doesn't control the hardware volume controllers on the Dragonfly which is bad for two reasons. 
   1. the volume level maybe not enough for harder to drive headphones
   2. for the best audio quality you want to keep the software volume at the maximum and use the hardware volume of the dragonfly
 You can get around this if your phone is rooted using ALSA mixer and some command line work.
  
 - if you have UAPP installed (at least on my phone, a Note 5) other apps don't play audio through the Dragonfly because UAPP's built in driver takes the device over.
  
 - Android (at least on my phone) up samples the sound to the maximum 96kHz of the Dragonfly in software. This is not ideal for sound quality.
  
 I don't have these issue on my iPhone 5S.


----------



## west0ne

How well the DFB will work with Android varies from device to device. It should work with Spotify but at the moment with Android devices you won't get full volume control. If the headphones you plan on using get loud enough straight out of the headphone jack then you will probably find they will be okay with the DFB. Audioquest have suggested that they will be updating the firmware to give proper volume control with Android.


----------



## nangs

nirudhap said:


> You can use it without UAPP BUT there are some compromises
> 
> - stock Android doesn't control the hardware volume controllers on the Dragonfly which is bad for two reasons.
> 1. the volume level maybe not enough for harder to drive headphones
> ...


 
  


west0ne said:


> How well the DFB will work with Android varies from device to device. It should work with Spotify but at the moment with Android devices you won't get full volume control. If the headphones you plan on using get loud enough straight out of the headphone jack then you will probably find they will be okay with the DFB. Audioquest have suggested that they will be updating the firmware to give proper volume control with Android.


 
  
 Thank you guys for the replies! A bit unfortunate that there are a few flaws with android currently. I don't think it'll be worth it since I'm just driving some mid tier IEMs but should probably upgrade my iems first then get the dragonfly. Hopefully by then there will be full android volume integration.


----------



## nirudhap

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for Android to fix USB audio support. A lot of headphone amps have physical volume control knobs and the user base is small enough that it'll probably be considered good enough as it is.


----------



## kiwikozo

I purchased the dragonfly black 1.5 to power my Fidelio X2's. I think there is a very very very slight channel imbalance in my headphones, literally 1%, for some songs it is perfect. But for others I sort of hear it behind my right ear.
  
 In windows 10 sound settings I can't see the balance option for left and right. Please can you help me!
  
 I really really like the sound quality of the dragonfly, I tried the chord mojo and can't really notice a great deal of difference when powering my x2's. Sending the Mojo back, it's not worth 4x the price for me at least, and as I'm using this in my desktop it's just easier / takes up no space at all.
  
 Thanks


----------



## drummguy26

nangs said:


> Thank you guys for the replies! A bit unfortunate that there are a few flaws with android currently. I don't think it'll be worth it since I'm just driving some mid tier IEMs but should probably upgrade my iems first then get the dragonfly. Hopefully by then there will be full android volume integration.


 
 If the volume isn't enough, you could also get a small amp like the Fiio E06 to increase the volume in line with the DFB. I have very sensitive IEM's and when I crank the volume all the way up, my DFR cuts out and reboots. So to compensate for this, I have to have the volume on the DFR at about 70% and then crank it on my Fiio E06. I get the volume I want without the DFR crappin out. It works beautifully!


----------



## west0ne

nirudhap said:


> I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for Android to fix USB audio support. A lot of headphone amps have physical volume control knobs and the user base is small enough that it'll probably be considered good enough as it is.


 
 It was actually Audioquest who were looking at a fix for the Dragonfly and not Android. The other DAC/Amps I have tried with Android all set the internal DAC hardware to output at 100% and then allow you use either the volume buttons on the phone or the volume pot on the Amp. For some reason the Dragonfly doesn't default to 100% volume.
  
 To make matters worse different device manufacturers do their own thing with the base Android and as a result you get USB audio working on some devices and not others.


----------



## meringo

FYI -- I just created a listing for my DF Black in the Amps for sale section. $75. I pay paypal fees, you pay shipping. NYC local pickup always encouraged.


----------



## estreeter

good sound said:


> Yes, the promised update for DFR/DFB. This update will supposedly fix the volume issue when running direct from Android to the Dragonfly without a third party app such as UAPP.


 
  
 Hallelujah.


----------



## good sound

estreeter said:


> good sound said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, the promised update for DFR/DFB. This update will supposedly fix the volume issue when running direct from Android to the Dragonfly without a third party app such as UAPP.
> ...




Yes, but it's not here yet. Hopefully very soon.


----------



## estreeter

nirudhap said:


> I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for Android to fix USB audio support. A lot of headphone amps have physical volume control knobs and the user base is small enough that it'll probably be considered good enough as it is.


 
  
 I still maintain that the problem isnt with AQ - all the DF does is convert a digital signal to an analog signal. Their work went into finding chips that would run from the low power output by mos portablet Android devices, not trying to 'fix' Android USB audio implementations from HTC, Huawei, Samsung and others. If they can indeed release an update which does what the commercial solutions seem to be doing in this area, great, but I didnt see this as AQ's problem on day one and I still dont.


----------



## CactusPete23

estreeter said:


> I still maintain that the problem isnt with AQ - all the DF does is convert a digital signal to an analog signal. Their work went into finding chips that would run from the low power output by mos portablet Android devices, not trying to 'fix' Android USB audio implementations from HTC, Huawei, Samsung and others. If they can indeed release an update which does what the commercial solutions seem to be doing in this area, great, but I didnt see this as AQ's problem on day one and I still dont.


 
 AQ told me that they could have designed the DFR to have default of full power when connected to an Android Phone (That could not access the DFR's volume control): But AQ was worried about people blowing out their ears, or headphones, if they did not turn volume down on their selected player, or hardware...       Now the DF's default to a low/mid level output; which is too low for some earphones.    Change to full output might make some people happier...
  
 Anyway a firmware change that would allow more Android Phones, and Players on those phones work better with the AQ DF's would be nice.


----------



## cribeiro

nangs said:


> Thank you guys for the replies! A bit unfortunate that there are a few flaws with android currently. I don't think it'll be worth it since I'm just driving some mid tier IEMs but should probably upgrade my iems first then get the dragonfly. Hopefully by then there will be full android volume integration.


 
 I am sure a good android volume management will come as the customer base is simply too wide to be ignored.
 Do not underestimate the value of a good DAC, though. I was very surprised by the huge difference in sound between my good-old Cowon Iaudio X5L and my HTC One M8 using just 70EUR IEMs (Hifiman RE-400). First I thought it was the internal headphone amp, so I tried a Fiio A1 and my old Corda portable amp, but the result was disappointing. Yes, it was a bit better, but still not really enjoyable. The DFR is at least at the level of my X5L.
 On a side note, the Hifiman are better than my defunct UE Super.fi 5 pro at one third of the price (ok, the UE are also 10 years older...). I really like the sound, but I miss the better isolation of the UE and I could live with less treble.


----------



## cribeiro

estreeter said:


> I still maintain that the problem isnt with AQ - all the DF does is convert a digital signal to an analog signal. Their work went into finding chips that would run from the low power output by mos portablet Android devices, not trying to 'fix' Android USB audio implementations from HTC, Huawei, Samsung and others. If they can indeed release an update which does what the commercial solutions seem to be doing in this area, great, but I didnt see this as AQ's problem on day one and I still dont.


 
 And I still disagree :-D
 I have a great idea for the "evolution" of this usb-stick-sized DACs with headphone amplifier: Put some buttons on it and include remote control functions and include a long USB cable. I am 100% positive that the DFR will evolve this way. It would be really convenient. Just for completeness: no, I do not want to give up any bit of sound quality for this and yes, I am sure it can be done :-D Does this post count for claiming royalties when they release the product?


----------



## drummguy26

DFR + Jitterbug + Fender FXA7 + Type 2 OCC Litz SPC cable = Life. Changing. 

That is all.


----------



## migasson

Done - with HE-400i, bloody great sound
  
 Hooked up to Galaxy Edge S7 as well, using USB Audio Player Pro, to run CD rips, and stream Tidal


----------



## nirudhap

@west0ne hopefully Audioquest will release the modified firmware sooner rather than later. This should be quite a small change and would also allow us to see the firmware updater app which they talk about on their site.
  
 Having said that I do hope Android fully implement the USB Audio functionality since that would remove the need for OEM specific implementations. I read that there is a new USB audio spec coming out soon.
  
 One more thing to consider is that Nougat (Android 7) might not allow UAPP's built in driver to function. I think I saw that on their forum. Need to check again.


----------



## west0ne

I suspect that when AQ finally release the update all it will do is default the output to 100% in the same way that other USB DACs do with Android; that leaves you to use the software volume controls built into Android. I am guessing that most users would prefer this as it would mean getting the full volume range on the device when used with system audio, any drop in quality that comes from using software volume control over hardware volume control is likely to be minimal and for bit-perfect playback will full internal hardware volume control there will still be UAPP.
  
 It wouldn't be impossible for proper USB drivers to be included within Android but as each device manufacturer does their own thing with the software implementation would still be patchy, the USB drivers that come with UAPP seem to work well for quite a broad range of USB DACs, even the built-in drivers on many devices know how to work with DACs but there is no built in way to interact with the DAC, again it wouldn't be impossible for device manufacturers to give us hardware level control in App form using Alsa as the backend.


----------



## wwyjoe

Hi all. Audioquest states that the USB 3.0 CCK offers improved audio performance over the older CCK adapter. Has anyone being able to hear any audible improvements as compared to the older adapter?


----------



## pkcpga

wwyjoe said:


> Hi all. Audioquest states that the USB 3.0 CCK offers improved audio performance over the older CCK adapter. Has anyone being able to hear any audible improvements as compared to the older adapter?



I found both worked similarly and the with iOS 10 and even the new cck there is still some audible clicking noise only with dfr and not other USB dac/amps that I've tried so I think audioquest needs to update something to better work with iOS 10 and from the sound of it with android as well.


----------



## JoeDoe

pkcpga said:


> I found both worked similarly and the with iOS 10 and even the new cck there is still some audible clicking noise only with dfr and not other USB dac/amps that I've tried so I think audioquest needs to update something to better work with iOS 10 and from the sound of it with android as well.


 
 What I was afraid of. I've had the DFR & DFB with my iPhone 6S, and I got clicking/popping with both on iOS 9. Sounds like the new iOS didn't help. Sort of curious to me that AQ advertises this product as iOS compatible... I suppose I still hear music, but the clicking/popping stuff make it rather un-enjoyable... Why would I spend $$$ on a DAC/amp that's going to make my music sound worse than it does straight from the headphone-out?


----------



## brent75

I have DFR on the latest iOS...playing through an iPhone and an iPod touch with the newest CCK...through IEMs and headphones...and it sounds fantastic and not once have I heard any clicking, popping or otherwise.


----------



## JoeDoe

brent75 said:


> I have DFR on the latest iOS...playing through an iPhone and an iPod touch with the newest CCK...through IEMs and headphones...and it sounds fantastic and not once have I heard any clicking, popping or otherwise.


 
 Which model iPhone?


----------



## pkcpga

joedoe said:


> Which model iPhone?




I have iPhone 7plus but I heard older iPhones predating the newer format so before 6 series have no issues. Maybe that's how far behind AQ is in formats.


----------



## brent75

iPhone 5s, 6s and 7+ between me and my wife.


----------



## JoeDoe

pkcpga said:


> I have iPhone 7plus but I heard older iPhones predating the newer format so before 6 series have no issues. Maybe that's how far behind AQ is in formats.





brent75 said:


> iPhone 5s, 6s and 7+ between me and my wife.




I've got some buddies with the iPhone 5 who have no problems, but I've heard from a few who have the 6 or 6S that there are issues. I also shot an email to AQ asking about it and they sort of implied that the issue was on Apples end. In either case it's frustrating that the device was having issues with what was Apple's flagship phone until a month ago.


----------



## brent75

Yeah - as a consumer you don't care if it's on Apple or Audioquest...you just want it to work.


----------



## kiwikozo

Is there a way to change the left / right balance in windows with the dragonfly black 1.5 / red?


----------



## pkcpga

brent75 said:


> Yeah - as a consumer you don't care if it's on Apple or Audioquest...you just want it to work.




My only reasoning for AQ issue instead of Apple is my mojo creates no clicking sound with any device I've tried it with. And since the DF has issues with Apple and android I'm more likely to think its an AQ issue that they are ignoring.


----------



## brent75

pkcpga said:


> My only reasoning for AQ issue instead of Apple is my mojo creates no clicking sound with any device I've tried it with. And since the DF has issues with Apple and android I'm more likely to think its an AQ issue that they are ignoring.


 
  
 I'm not sure what these occasional issues for select people have to do with the Chord Mojo.


----------



## pkcpga

brent75 said:


> I'm not sure what these occasional issues for select people have to do with the Chord Mojo.



Just a variable or another dac/amp using the same phone without having the same issue as the dfr. So offers a I doubt it's Apple's issue over AQ issue, since both use the same phone and cck cable and only one has the issue.


----------



## kiwikozo

Please can somebody help I can't see the balance option in windows sound properties. 
  
 It only shows this:
  
  
 But it should show the balance button which then lets me set the L + R sound values. This is when using the udac3, and it also showed when I had the chord mojo.
  
  
  I think the dragonfly black is perfect for me in terms of sound quality, size... but my Fidelio X2's have a slight channel imbalance and setting the left to +1 makes all the difference to make it faultless. I've tried a few sub £100 amps and none of them as good as the dragonfly black. I'd get the dragonfly red if the L+R control works for me!
  
 The bass is perfectly controlled, soundstage is fantastic and everything is crisp and clear. Many others like the Nuforce Udac-3, soundblaster omni, filo e10K just can't compete. Was thinking of trying the Audioengine D1 Premium 24-bit DAC but I just know from reading reviews that it won't be able to compete with the dragonfly black.
  
 I have tried uninstalling the windows driver. Disabling all other sound devices including realtek, creative, nvidia. Disabling all enhancements, changing the different frequencies but it still doesn't show that balance button.
  
 If anyone can help I will be forever grateful!


----------



## pkcpga

kiwikozo said:


> Please can somebody help I can't see the balance option in windows sound properties.
> 
> It only shows this:
> 
> ...




I just tried to change balance with my dfr on my windows labtop and on my Mac desktop wasn't able to on either but your right with my mojo it comes up as an option on both computers. That's very strange I'd email audioquest must be another quirk with the DF's.


----------



## kiwikozo

pkcpga said:


> I just tried to change balance with my dfr on my windows labtop and on my Mac desktop wasn't able to on either but your right with my mojo it comes up as an option on both computers. That's very strange I'd email audioquest must be another quirk with the DF's.


 
 Thanks for your reply! I thought so maybe it's because it's just designed to be a portable DAC / AMP but not output to anything but headphones. I emailed them as it would be a nice feature to have once they finally release the desktop update app.
  
 I found the imbalance is coming from my earpads. Ordered these new brainwave ones from Amazon so will see how well they compare in terms of sound quality.
  
 Very happy now as I really wanted to keep the dragonfly black, will definitely use it as my only DAC/Amp now. I really didn't find much difference between the mojo and DF Black 1.5. I'm not sure if the red is worth 2x the price. I love the warmth of the black and read that the red isn't as warm?


----------



## pkcpga

kiwikozo said:


> Thanks for your reply! I thought so maybe it's because it's just designed to be a portable DAC / AMP but not output to anything but headphones. I emailed them as it would be a nice feature to have once they finally release the desktop update app.
> 
> I found the imbalance is coming from my earpads. Ordered these new brainwave ones from Amazon so will see how well they compare in terms of sound quality.
> 
> Very happy now as I really wanted to keep the dragonfly black, will definitely use it as my only DAC/Amp now. I really didn't find much difference between the mojo and DF Black 1.5. I'm not sure if the red is worth 2x the price. I love the warmth of the black and read that the red isn't as warm?




I find I never use the red it's too bright I actually returned it but was sent another one back for some reason. The mojo is much more neutral sounding and the black is definitely warmer than both. I can see why basshead or bass lovers would love the black, the vocals are too recessed for me and the highs are not very detailed but it's great for bass lovers and a great price.


----------



## kiwikozo

pkcpga said:


> I find I never use the red it's too bright I actually returned it but was sent another one back for some reason. The mojo is much more neutral sounding and the black is definitely warmer than both. I can see why basshead or bass lovers would love the black, the vocals are too recessed for me and the highs are not very detailed but it's great for bass lovers and a great price.


 
 Wouldn't say I'm a basshead, but I love how exciting the music sounds with the Fidelio X2's. Even the soundstage is excellent. I tested the Oppo PM-2's, and the HD700s for a bit too and if I had to keep either regardless of the price it would still be the X2's. DG Black pairs so wonderfully with them too, and is neatly hidden away in my desktop setup. Couldn't be happier - I think!
  
 So strange how it was the earpads causing the imbalance and philips don't even sell replacement original earpads or the headphones anymore! I tried it without the earpads and the sound is balanced.


----------



## Rish732

@yacobx
  
 I was searching the whole forum and now this thread for this specific question and I can say that I have in my position
 1) Dragonfly Red
 2) Hifime Sabre 9018 (not asynchronous, just the good ol' 96/24 version)
  
 Now I know that they both use a sabre DAC - the Dragonfly being the 9016 and the hifime being the 9018km2 if I'm not mistaken but there are noticeable differences in implementation and amplification.
 If anyone knows more specific details about these two sabre DACs I'm very curious.
  
 Here are my thoughts on what I hear in a quick Showdown Listening session as I type this post.
  
*Signal chain*
 Tidal Hifi streaming - CD quality 44.1khz 16bit
 - Amazon basics USB 4 port (AC powered) - cheap but cheerful
 - A) Dragonfly (DR)
 - B) Hifime Sabre 9018 (HFM)
 - Wireworld Pulse Minijack to Minijack 3 ft cable
 - Output to Cayin C5
 - AKG 7xx (Massdrop)
  
 So no blind testing but here are my thoughts.
  
*Tracks and albums*
 Keith Jarretr - For Richer or Poorer
 Dave Brubeck - Take Five (album version)
 Miles Davis - So What (off of Kind of Blue Legacy version)
 Daft Punk - Get Lucky
 Lorde - Royals
 James Blake - the album James Blake
 Dvorak- Ashkenazy, Czech Philharmonic Orchestra, - Sympony No. 9 in E Minor, Op. 95 from the New World: 1 Adagio, Allegro Molto
  
*Sound*
 Dragonfly Red (DR) vs. Hifime Sabre 9018 (HFM)
  
*By Genre*
*In Pop songs - * Daft Punk, Lorde, James Blake (though he's really in another realm, give him a listen, it's fantastic) 
 The DR has more detail and more imaging by a hair
 The HFM has a slightly easier signature to listen to for a while.  No harshness (the DR has an extremely light harshness) in cymbals or synthesized hits. 
  
*Jazz*
 The HFM has the edge for me.  It lets me get into the intricacies of rhythm and musicality with a bit more bass (subjective tastes) I hear enough detail.
 Though in the DR, Keith Jarrett's little musical squealings are just a little bit clearer if that's your thing.  Which I get, it's what makes him, Keith Jarrett. 
  
*Classical*
 Here the DR edges out the HFM, since it has that detail and treble the soundstage feels wider.  Maybe you hear that baton on the stand more clearly.  Or maybe you hear the bows being picked up just a tad more resolved than the HFM. 
  
*Overall sound notes*
*Pros of the Dragonfly*
 - I find the DR sound to be a bit more airy and less impactful in the bass.  I find detail to be slightly above the HFM. 
 - the DR sounds a tiny bit more neutral with a clearer rendition of the highs
 - Seems to power the K7xx slightly more easily than the HFM
 - Slightly more holographic sound stage, feeling of increased separation (perhaps only perceived) I'm not well versed enough to talk of depth and height but I feel the soundstage a bit wider with the DR. 
  
*Cons of the Dragonfly*
 - Slightly more strident sound in the highs, which can be fatiguing at higher volumes and after a long listening session.
 - Driving headphones directly from the Dragonfly gives a bit more treble.
  
*Pros of the Hifime Sabre 9018 (HFM)*
 I keep going back to the Sabre since
 - it costs way less
 - it renders a slightly more impactful bass and a slightly more neutral mid and high signature which makes continued listening easier on the ears.
 - Driving headphones directly from the HFM gives some thickness, some body to the sound while still giving a decent soundstage.
  
*Cons of the HFM*
 Slightly less detail and when I switch from the DR, my immediate thought is that it sounds muddied but powerful.  I'm exaggerating, the difference is extremely subtle but important to state.  In an AB (non-blind) test you will get this feeling.
  
 However after less than 30 seconds I find myself slightly preferring the HFM
  
*Appearance and Build*
 The Dragonfly Red is by far the better build. Save perhaps the fragile paint job.  It's solid, the usb cap feels like a proper cap.
 The Hifime Sabre 9018 is in an inexpensive but sturdy plastic case with a single LED.
 for looks the DR wins hands down.
  
*Price*
 The HFM Sabre 9018 wins hands down.
 The Dragonfly red is 2 times the price (used it's maybe $175 if you're lucky as I was)
  
*Verdict*. 
 It really is a toss up based on personal preference. 
 If you crave detail and like to jump into the soundstage then the DR is for you.
 If you want just enough detail and a more relaxed and bass impactful listening experience than the Hifime Sabre 9018 is for you. The soundstage is there but maybe less clear since the bass is more present. 
 After about 5 minutes though (and this is key) I forget which one I have in and I look to see.  So this may say a lot of this comparison.
 I'll just end by saying the DR is ever so slightly thinner than the HFM. If you like your sound thin and slightly more dainty, resolved go for the DR
 If you like your sound thicker and with a bit of ease and class go for the HFM

 That being said if you have an amp with a bass boost (like the Cayin C5) perhaps the difference isn't as obvious.
  
*EDIT* - Listening to a song like James Blake's Retrograde really highlights the differences.  The DR is detailed and clean whereas I really do find the HFM more impactful and soulful in some way.  The Bass and mid Bass is more present while still giving a fantastic soundstage.  This is a tough comparison to let go of!
  
 Hope that helps (probably not!) and please hit me up for clarification as needed. 
 Thanks!
 Rish


----------



## slackerpo

rish732 said:


> @yacobx
> 
> I was searching the whole forum and now this thread for this specific question and I can say that I have in my position
> 1) Dragonfly Red
> ...


 
  
 nice rundown.


----------



## west0ne

@kiwikozo - If you install Equalizer APO along with the 'Peace Gui' you can get a very competent equalizer, you can control each channel separately which I'm pretty sure will solve your imbalance issue. It will give much finer control than the sliders you find in the audio section so would probably be a better solution. EQ APO & Peace are both free and available from Sourceforge.


----------



## kiwikozo

west0ne said:


> @kiwikozo - If you install Equalizer APO along with the 'Peace Gui' you can get a very competent equalizer, you can control each channel separately which I'm pretty sure will solve your imbalance issue. It will give much finer control than the sliders you find in the audio section so would probably be a better solution. EQ APO & Peace are both free and available from Sourceforge.


 
 Thank you! I will definitely try it out, will be handy to have. I really believe the imbalance is only due to the earpads, and the new replacements which are supposed to be more comfortable and virtually identical sound-wise are arriving on Saturday.


----------



## nirudhap

I will try some high def files on my iPhone 5S, running 10.02, to see if I get this. On 44.1kHz 16 bit content plays great.


----------



## Mboom

Anybody got a comparison of both dragonfly black/red and the monoprice $60 model ?


----------



## thamasha69

rish732 said:


> @yacobx
> 
> I was searching the whole forum and now this thread for this specific question and I can say that I have in my position
> 1) Dragonfly Red
> ...


 

 Thank you much for this. I tested my Dad's DF Black against DF Red last week at RMAF and certainly felt the Red was a bit bright for my tastes. I had been eyeballing the HifiMeDIY 9018 over the last year and your comparison is pushing me closer to getting one.


----------



## Rish732

thamasha69 said:


> Thank you much for this. I tested my Dad's DF Black against DF Red last week at RMAF and certainly felt the Red was a bit bright for my tastes. I had been eyeballing the HifiMeDIY 9018 over the last year and your comparison is pushing me closer to getting one.




You're welcome. I'll be selling my dragonfly red shortly and sticking with the hifime. It's a great piece of kit, the red, but the hifime has the sound I'm looking for. For sure!


----------



## Nirvana1000

Are there any builds of Poweramp that work with the DF?


----------



## jegnyc

joedoe said:


> Any iPhone users notice a performance improvement with the release of IOS 10? With iOS 9, the DFR would get all kinds of pops and blips from my
> 6S and I'm wondering if thats been fixed in the new OS.




I've had the problem with my 6S. iOS 10 did not solve it. Read my prior posts in this thread for details. For me, switching to the USB-3 CCK solved the problem.


----------



## pkcpga

jegnyc said:


> I've had the problem with my 6S. iOS 10 did not solve it. Read my prior posts in this thread for details. For me, switching to the USB-3 CCK solved the problem.




Lucky you the new cck3 did not solve the clicking or popping sound with my iPhone 7plus and iOS 10.02. But this seems to be a common issue, hopefully AQ will have an update to become better compatible with new iPhones. And I'm guessing it's a AQ issue not Apple since my other portable dac/amp does not have the clicking popping issue. Might be because the DF is not an Apple approved device.


----------



## jegnyc

pkcpga said:


> Lucky you the new cck3 did not solve the clicking or popping sound with my iPhone 7plus and iOS 10.02. But this seems to be a common issue, hopefully AQ will have an update to become better compatible with new iPhones. And I'm guessing it's a AQ issue not Apple since my other portable dac/amp does not have the clicking popping issue. Might be because the DF is not an Apple approved device.




Sounds like we may suffering from different issues with similar symptoms. As I said previously, I don't think mine is an Audioquest problem as both my Dragonflies exhibited it, but only with my 6S (running iOS 9 and 10). They both worked with my 5S (running iOS 9) and my two iPads.


----------



## chboehm

pkcpga said:


> Lucky you the new cck3 did not solve the clicking or popping sound with my iPhone 7plus and iOS 10.02. But this seems to be a common issue, hopefully AQ will have an update to become better compatible with new iPhones. And I'm guessing it's a AQ issue not Apple since my other portable dac/amp does not have the clicking popping issue. Might be because the DF is not an Apple approved device.




I having occasional skips/jitter/squeals when using DF Red with CCK hooked up to iPhone6 but do not have nearly as many issues when using the CCK which can also charge phone at same time (which I use in car). Just ordered the jitterbug to see if that fixes these issues. I had similar issues going from Surface 3 running Roon to Schiit Modi Multibit. Hooked up the Schiit Wyrd and poof....problem gone.


----------



## GerMan

Need some help please.
  
 Looked into the device description of my Dragonfly in my Windows 7 PC and pushed button "deinstall driver" due to problems with JRiver (someone gave the advice which obviously was no good though).
  
 Result was that Dragonfly works but  device manager shows jellow exclamation mark an "unknown device". "Install new driver automatically" lead to no result. Same Problem occurs if you want to install Dragonfly to another USB port which leads to tons of problems. Although not new to PCs, I'm stuck somehow. How can I get the PC to recognize the DAC as "Audioquest Dragonfly" again?
 Somehow had the idea to reset all USB ports somehow so that devices plugged into PC are recognized automatically again.
  
 Any hints?
  
 Greetings, GerMan


----------



## zolom

Had a chance today to try the DFR with my Samsung s7e and SE846.I had to push the volume to the maximum to hear decently (used Poweramp). The DFB, sounds great at 75% volume.


----------



## 0rangutan

My DFR also suffered from frequent clicks while used with my iPhone 6S, iOS10.1 betas and CCK (the narrow one).

I am fond of the DFR and really prefer its portability over the Mojo, but it's all for nothing if it's not listenable unfortunately.

I have now sold the DFR and am going back to the Mojo.


----------



## naiynat

Hi all,

I'm trying to read this thread from page 1 but finally gave up at page 88. I still can't find the answer I'm looking for and hope someone here can point me in the right direction.

I am really keen to get the dragonfly red due to the many good reviews. It works for me as it is very small and portable and does not need to charge desperately (very important for me).

I'm subscribed to Tidal HiFi however I am unwilling to stream it on my mobile due to the high data cost in my country.

I am using a Samsung Galaxy S7 Edge.

My question is, am I still able to play the music from the offline mode in Tidal from my S7 edge, and still able to use the dragonfly red? I'm no tech expert so would appreciate if someone who has the same combination or the knowledge point me in the correct direction. 

I am also open to other small portable DACs like the dfr, if you all may suggest.

Appreciate the advise. Thank you in advance!


----------



## west0ne

naiynat said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I'm trying to read this thread from page 1 but finally gave up at page 88. I still can't find the answer I'm looking for and hope someone here can point me in the right direction.
> 
> ...


 
 Technically, yes you can but at the moment you may find that the volume with the DFR will be too low when used with any app other than UAPP. Without UAPP you won't get proper hardware volume of the DFR which means you won't get anywhere near full volume. If you have low impedance/high sensitivity IEMs you may find that the volume is fine for you but if your headphones need a bit more power the DFR may not be suitable for your needs.
  
 Audioquest have indicated that they will be releasing a firmware upgrade to the DFR/DFB to solve this issue but there are no signs of it yet.

 If you are on a rooted S7E you can get full volume control but it does require a bit of work.


----------



## naiynat

west0ne said:


> Technically, yes you can but at the moment you may find that the volume with the DFR will be too low when used with any app other than UAPP. Without UAPP you won't get proper hardware volume of the DFR which means you won't get anywhere near full volume. If you have low impedance/high sensitivity IEMs you may find that the volume is fine for you but if your headphones need a bit more power the DFR may not be suitable for your needs.
> 
> Audioquest have indicated that they will be releasing a firmware upgrade to the DFR/DFB to solve this issue but there are no signs of it yet.
> 
> ...




Tks for the reply, WestOne
What's a rooted s7e?
Is that like a jail-broken phone?


----------



## west0ne

naiynat said:


> Tks for the reply, WestOne
> What's a rooted s7e?
> Is that like a jail-broken phone?




Essentialy rooting Android is similar to jailbreaking the iPhone. It gives you system level access to the Android OS but also more controls over the hardware. It's a fairly simple process and there are loads of sites out there with very detailed instructions on how to do it.


----------



## psikey

naiynat said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I'm trying to read this thread from page 1 but finally gave up at page 88. I still can't find the answer I'm looking for and hope someone here can point me in the right direction.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I'm using with my Samsung S7 but with ShureSE846's which are so sensitive that even with the current volume issue its too loud on max for me with Spotify/Tidal etc. If I press volume up/down its all or nothing, but if I use the slider bar I can set the volume OK. In UAPP with proper volume control I'd blow my head of at much over 50% setting.
  
 I also prefer convenience compared to Mojo I had (and sold). The DFR is perfect for me and use with laptops/desktops and my phone.  Should be even better once they fix the Android volume issue. Mine from further back in the thread, I just use two cases and put a piece of red electrical tape over end section to avoid getting DFR scratched/chipped.


----------



## good sound

naiynat said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I'm trying to read this thread from page 1 but finally gave up at page 88. I still can't find the answer I'm looking for and hope someone here can point me in the right direction.
> 
> ...




If you had continued to read through the thread for just a little more you would have found the answer to your question. Unfortunately Tidal does not allow access to downloaded music through any third party app such as UAPP. I have no idea if rooting or jailbreaking changes this as I have zero experience with either rooting or jailbreaking.


----------



## naiynat

Thanks for the replies! 

I also emailed the staff at audio quest and was told to try this to see if it works with my android phone: 

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.tauruslabs.usbhostcheck

I got this from that link:

"It appears that USB Host Support is not enabled on this device. A fixed attempt can be performed"

So i emailed audioquest to confirm again if the dfr would work with my phone,he had to assume the dragonfly red would not work with my phone.

I guess I'm going for other alternatives. Its a pity..


----------



## gianrond

west0ne said:


> Technically, yes you can but at the moment you may find that the volume with the DFR will be too low when used with any app other than UAPP. Without UAPP you won't get proper hardware volume of the DFR which means you won't get anywhere near full volume. If you have low impedance/high sensitivity IEMs you may find that the volume is fine for you but if your headphones need a bit more power the DFR may not be suitable for your needs.
> 
> Audioquest have indicated that they will be releasing a firmware upgrade to the DFR/DFB to solve this issue but there are no signs of it yet.
> 
> ...




Hi, I have a galaxy s7 rooted. How do I get full volume control? At the moment, with Google play music, I tell no difference between the internal DAC and the DFB.

Thank you!


----------



## west0ne

@gianrond - See this post:- http://www.head-fi.org/t/805832/new-dragonfly-black-and-red-discussion/1740#post_12867304


----------



## Devodonaldson

gianrond said:


> Hi, I have a galaxy s7 rooted. How do I get full volume control? At the moment, with Google play music, I tell no difference between the internal DAC and the DFB.
> Hey there. Unfortunately you are not going to hear much difference between headphone jack and external Dac on Android just by plugging in. In Android, even with DAC connected, audio is run through the system first. All audio is sampled at 48. This is the main issue with Android right now. IOS gives straight playback through external Dac. Using UAPP, the drivers they use bypass Android audio and sends a pure signal to the Dac. This is the main reason for apps such as this. Tidal music is only app completely through UAPP. If you are looking for Google play music playback with pure sound you will need UAPP and Bubble UPnP app. Start UAPP as renderer in the menu then go on the Bubble app and select UAPP renderer as the player. Now you can select Google play music and stream a pure signal, and you will now definitely hear the difference. It's unfortunate we have to do this, and hopefully this issue gets fixed on Android soon. This is the case regardless of Dac used
> 
> Thank you!


----------



## naiynat

Hmmm, does all the above suggest I am able to use tidal offline (not tidal stream) through UAPP and bypass the phone's internal dac directly to the dfr?


----------



## good sound

naiynat said:


> Hmmm, does all the above suggest I am able to use tidal offline (not tidal stream) through UAPP and bypass the phone's internal dac directly to the dfr?




No, you cannot access downloaded content from Tidal using UAPP.Tidal does not allow any third party apps access to downloaded content due to copyright issues. If anyone can refute this please let me know. The developers of UAPP have already stated here that Tidal will not allow downloaded content to be routed through their player, streamed content only. As someone with very limited data availability this is the single biggest disappointment I have with Tidal, especially after hearing how good Tidal's hi-fi feed sounds through UAPP.


----------



## Devodonaldson

good sound said:


> No, you cannot access downloaded content from Tidal using UAPP.Tidal does not allow any third party apps access to downloaded content due to copyright issues. If anyone can refute this please let me know. The developers of UAPP have already stated here that Tidal will not allow downloaded content to be routed through their player, streamed content only. As someone with very limited data availability this is the single biggest disappointment I have with Tidal, especially after hearing how good Tidal's hi-fi feed sounds through UAPP.



Sorry to hear that. This is why I love T-Mobile. Even in the months where I have not used streaming video, I log over 8-10gb streaming Flac audio. Tidal streaming on UAPP + T-Mobile "unlimited" (not too 2% of users) streaming


----------



## good sound

devodonaldson said:


> good sound said:
> 
> 
> > No, you cannot access downloaded content from Tidal using UAPP.Tidal does not allow any third party apps access to downloaded content due to copyright issues. If anyone can refute this please let me know. The developers of UAPP have already stated here that Tidal will not allow downloaded content to be routed through their player, streamed content only. As someone with very limited data availability this is the single biggest disappointment I have with Tidal, especially after hearing how good Tidal's hi-fi feed sounds through UAPP.
> ...




Here in Ontario Canada Wind Mobile is the only carrier who offers that amount of bandwidth monthly at a reasonable price, but they have other issues such as very limited coverage area and no LTE service. Every other Carrier north of the 49th parallel charges ridiculous amounts of coin for data. It is a well known fact, especially among Canadians, that Canadians pay some of the highest mobile rates in the world.


----------



## ilcg1

good sound said:


> Here in Ontario Canada Wind Mobile is the only carrier who offers that amount of bandwidth monthly at a reasonable price, but they have other issues such as very limited coverage area and no LTE service. Every other Carrier north of the 49th parallel charges ridiculous amounts of coin for data. It is a well known fact, especially among Canadians, that Canadians pay some of the highest mobile rates in the world.




Ture regarding Canadian cellular rates. Good that I've got Fido grandfathered plan - 5gb for $49.


----------



## slackerpo

ilcg1 said:


> Ture regarding Canadian cellular rates. Good that I've got Fido grandfathered plan - 5gb for $49.


 
  
 well im paying $53 (cad) for 3gb... in an underdeveloped country...
  
 luckily the competition is getting better, so im moving to a different carrier that gives me 10gb for $33 (cad)


----------



## pkcpga

slackerpo said:


> well im paying $53 (cad) for 3gb... in an underdeveloped country...
> 
> luckily the competition is getting better, so im moving to a different carrier that gives me 10gb for $33 (cad)




Better than me in the us, 10g at $79 (usd).


----------



## good sound

slackerpo said:


> ilcg1 said:
> 
> 
> > Ture regarding Canadian cellular rates. Good that I've got Fido grandfathered plan - 5gb for $49.
> ...




Do you live in Western Canada? I know there are a couple of regional carriers in the western part of the country that offer some pretty good plans. Like I said there is Wind Mobile, but then there are also the issues not the least of which by far is their poor customer service rating. Couple that with uneven coverage and the lack of LTE and lack of iPhone support makes me Leary. There is more to value than just getting the bottom line best price. There are no miracle deals and as the age old adage says, if a deal seems too good to be true then it most probably is.


----------



## Nirvana1000

slackerpo said:


> well im paying $53 (cad) for 3gb... in an underdeveloped country...
> 
> luckily the competition is getting better, so im moving to a different carrier that gives me 10gb for $33 (cad)



You must 





ilcg1 said:


> Ture regarding Canadian cellular rates. Good that I've got Fido grandfathered plan - 5gb for $49.



You must of had that plan originally with an old flip phone.


----------



## OliverBB

Hi everyone,
  
 Thinking of picking up the DF Black or maybe even the Red for my Galaxy S5. Just wondering if the Red or even the Black used with my S5 would be an upgrade in the sound vs my Fiio X3II. The smartphone experience is just so much better UI wise vs the kind of limited X3II (which I admit does have really good sound).   
  
 Thanks for any help!!


----------



## ilcg1

nirvana1000 said:


> You must
> You must of had that plan originally with an old flip phone.



Yes, my friend was switching to a plan at work and I'm ported my number and got the plan. You are right - that's very old plan.


----------



## coldwarkid

Hi guys, just a quick question before I pull the trigger on the black version. I did start to read all this thread but it just got confusing as I love sound and stereo equipment but I'm a true luddite when it comes to technology.
 I'm about to buy this in combo with the Beoplay h6 but I've just read that because the Beoplay has an inline mic, it won't work with a desktop amp. Is it the case that it will also not work with a USB style amp/dac because of this?


----------



## psikey

pkcpga said:


> Better than me in the us, 10g at $79 (usd).


 
  
 In UK I have a 4G Data SIM that gives me 25GB for £19.99


----------



## slackerpo

oliverbb said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> Thinking of picking up the DF Black or maybe even the Red for my Galaxy S5. Just wondering if the Red or even the Black used with my S5 would be an upgrade in the sound vs my Fiio X3II. The smartphone experience is just so much better UI wise vs the kind of limited X3II (which I admit does have really good sound).
> 
> Thanks for any help!!


 
  
 i havent tested th black, but i would totally commit saying that the red is most definitely an audio upgrade from the x3II.


----------



## OliverBB

slackerpo said:


> i havent tested th black, but i would totally commit saying that the red is most definitely an audio upgrade from the x3II.


 
 Thanks for your input. To be honest I'd like to get away with the Black as it's 100 bucks cheaper.


----------



## west0ne

oliverbb said:


> Thanks for your input. To be honest I'd like to get away with the Black as it's 100 bucks cheaper.


 
 Can you buy from somewhere that allows returns (Amazon) that way you can give the DFB a try and if you like it keep it, if not send it back and get the DFR. Either that or a local HiFi store that will let you try both in their listening room.


----------



## OliverBB

west0ne said:


> Can you buy from somewhere that allows returns (Amazon) that way you can give the DFB a try and if you like it keep it, if not send it back and get the DFR. Either that or a local HiFi store that will let you try both in their listening room.


 
 Yeah in the end that's probably what I will end up doing (purchasing online). I wish there were a local hifi shop in the area to try this kind of stuff out but unfortunately that is not the case.


----------



## foreverzer0

oliverbb said:


> Yeah in the end that's probably what I will end up doing (purchasing online). I wish there were a local hifi shop in the area to try this kind of stuff out but unfortunately that is not the case.


 
  
 I had to do this excercise not long ago. Purchased both and I'd honestly be happy with either, but ended up giving the black to my buddy since he really likes bass. In a nutshell, my impression on both (for IEM use):
  
 Red = More balanced and extended up top, more depth on the vocals
  
 Black = More emphasis and extended down low, vocals a bit further back and less depth, but more analog sounding
  
 Both = Smooth, wide/spacious sounding, musical
  
 For pure DAC use, it's probably pretty close. For over-ear, obvi the red has more power.


----------



## OliverBB

foreverzer0 said:


> I had to do this excercise not long ago. Purchased both and I'd honestly be happy with either, but ended up giving the black to my buddy since he really likes bass. In a nutshell, my impression on both (for IEM use):
> 
> Red = More balanced and extended up top, more depth on the vocals
> 
> ...


 
 That's very helpful! Thanks!


----------



## Suwarna

Hi All,

am new to this forum and had been reading since yesterday noon till now on this DFB and DFR discussion. Just wondering if anybody already try either one with OPPO PM-1 ? which DF is more "compatible" ? am currently using Fiio X5ii + Fiio e17K connect through coax and want to find more portable solution with sacrifice details. plan to connect to iphone 6. initially want to decide DFR but still afraid if not really compatible with my OPPO PM-1. Any suggestion/advise will be much appreciate !


----------



## shagrasniper

Hello everyone
  
 I just received these Hifiman HE400S headphones & i must say, I'm disappoited.
 I used 2 DAPs, and all of my music collection are 16 bit FLACs (full CD quality)
  
 1. Fiio X3 1st Gen (which has a Wolfson HIFI DAC): even in low gain the volume is more than sufficient, yet the sound is a tiny bit more congested compared to my old Sennheiser HD598 !!!
 2. Exynos Samsung Galaxy S7 Edge: and the volume was not even loud enough to start judging
  
 I heard about this AudioQuest Dragonfly (but the only issue is that it would require a 3rd party app to function properly just as an audio player, so i cant use it with youtube)
  
 What is the best portable solution to drive these supposedly cheap, definitely troubling cans on my android phone ???
 I want something that delivers good rich sound, not just a loud stick.


----------



## foreverzer0

shagrasniper said:


> Hello everyone
> 
> I just received these Hifiman HE400S headphones & i must say, I'm disappoited.
> I used 2 DAPs, and all of my music collection are 16 bit FLACs (full CD quality)
> ...


 
  
 Change the ear pads to like the focus pads or nvx angled ones (I have an extra set if you want them cheap). I also removed the dust filter and grill on the back to honeycomb 0.25" spaced ones for much better soundstage.


----------



## shagrasniper

foreverzer0 said:


> Change the ear pads to like the focus pads or nvx angled ones (I have an extra set if you want them cheap). I also removed the dust filter and grill on the back to honeycomb 0.25" spaced ones for much better soundstage.


 

 thank you very much, but i think i finally solved the issue.
 although the Fiio had better results with the sennheiser
 it turned out that i was using bubble upnp app instead of the google play music app on my phone, which sounded awesome directly from my phone, way better than my Fiio.
  
 i very happy now, i don't think i need any accessories any more.


----------



## EriktheCavalier

Has anyone tried both Hifime 9018 and Zorloo ZuperDAC? They both use the same 9018k2m chip and the price is exactly the same it seems.


----------



## thamasha69

erikthecavalier said:


> Has anyone tried both Hifime 9018 and Zorloo ZuperDAC? They both use the same 9018k2m chip and the price is exactly the same it seems.


 

 Check out this review of the ZuperDAC - there are comparisons with the HiFimeDIY 9018:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/products/zorloo-zuperdac/reviews/17154
  
 I was always curious of the difference as well, but ended up pulling the trigger on the HiFimeDIY 9018 a couple weeks ago.


----------



## zolom

Any news about future firmware updates for either Black or Red?


----------



## drykoke

zolom said:


> Any news about future firmware updates for either Black or Red?


 
 Disappointingly, I haven't heard any positive news from anyone.
 It has been some months since I posted about the volume and compatibility problems with Android, but no solution seems to have been reached as yet.


----------



## simonpickard

I'm also hoping a new firmware would fix the clicking and popping you get on iPhone's with the camera connection kit cable.


----------



## good sound

drykoke said:


> zolom said:
> 
> 
> > Any news about future firmware updates for either Black or Red?
> ...




Actually a representative from Audioquest stated that they have a solution and it would be delivered in the form of a firmware update this fall. This was some time ago however and they have been silent about it lately. Hopefully they haven't run into any trouble and they will be delivering on their promise shortly.


----------



## slackerpo

good sound said:


> Actually a representative from Audioquest stated that they have a solution and it would be delivered in the form of a firmware update this fall. This was some time ago however and they have been silent about it lately. Hopefully they haven't run into any trouble and they will be delivering on their promise shortly.


 
  
 yes.
  
 we need the update.
  
 they said by fall.
  
 we need it.


----------



## ashmodai

Humm
After updating to the latest iOS release my red suddenly stopped working on both my phone and tablet (led stays red indeed when connected..) does anyone faced this issue as well ? Could not find any complaint ok google


----------



## foreverzer0

I've been running 10.1 for at least a week now with my DFR. Try restarting it again. Might be the DFR itself if it doesn't work on both.


----------



## ashmodai

I did ... and tried both on my iPhone and my iPad ... does not work on either ...


----------



## foreverzer0

I suppose try it on a computer.


----------



## Jared Chew

I tried the FiiO Q1 with my MacBook Pro and iPhone7+ with B&O H6. Source is 360 bitrate and ALAC files. I did a blind test and I couldn't tell the difference and I ended up liking the MacBook Pro 2015 sound signature more than the Q1 with my B&O H6

 B&O H6 are not hard to drive earphones, so I'm looking at the DFB and purchase Apple Lighting to USB 3 cable for my iPhone 7.
  
 My question is, anyone compared FiiO Q1 or e17K to DFB? Its of cause a different segment, one is a DAC/preamp and very portable and FiiO is more dac/amp combo with dedicated power.
  
 I'm reading through the reviews from pg 1, so it might take some time to stumble upon my answer. Thought to leave a comment to get some answers.
  
 Also does the jitterbug really help?
  
 Cheers.


----------



## west0ne

ashmodai said:


> Humm
> After updating to the latest iOS release my red suddenly stopped working on both my phone and tablet (led stays red indeed when connected..) does anyone faced this issue as well ? Could not find any complaint ok google


 
 Are you using an official Apple USB CCK, I've seen reports of issues with third party cables.


----------



## west0ne

jared chew said:


> I tried the FiiO Q1 with my MacBook Pro and iPhone7+ with B&O H6. Source is 360 bitrate and ALAC files. I did a blind test and I couldn't tell the difference and I ended up liking the MacBook Pro 2015 sound signature more than the Q1 with my B&O H6
> 
> B&O H6 are not hard to drive earphones, so I'm looking at the DFB and purchase Apple Lighting to USB 3 cable for my iPhone 7.
> 
> ...


 
 I find the DFB to have an overall better sound than the Q1, greater clarity, more detail and more depth. I would say the Q1 has more power though but it doesn't sound like that would be an issue in your setup.


----------



## ashmodai

west0ne said:


> Are you using an official Apple USB CCK, I've seen reports of issues with third party cables.




Actually I started wondering when seeing that I was the only one with the issue. At least I thought I had an original and I bought it as one. I looked on apple web site about how to know if you got a fake but all the visual clues they give do not apply (I mean mine looks legit)


----------



## Slaphead

ashmodai said:


> Actually I started wondering when seeing that I was the only one with the issue. At least I thought I had an original and I bought it as one. I looked on apple web site about how to know if you got a fake but all the visual clues they give do not apply (I mean mine looks legit)




These CCKs can and do fail occasionally. It might be that yours has bit the electronic dust.

Do you have another known good USB device that's compatible with iOS to test it with. Like, for instance, another USB 2 class compliant DAC/Amp, or a USB MIDI keyboard?


----------



## foreverzer0

I can safely say my dfr is also working on the latest iOS 10.2 right now.


----------



## georgelai57

Audioquest's website says that the pops and clicks problem does not arise if one uses the newer Apple USB3 Camera Adapter - the one with both USB and Lightning inputs at one end. Can any owner testify to this please? Thanks.


----------



## barbes

georgelai57 said:


> Audioquest's website says that the pops and clicks problem does not arise if one uses the newer Apple USB3 Camera Adapter - the one with both USB and Lightning inputs at one end. Can any owner testify to this please? Thanks.




Yes, it's true. Had problems on my iPhone 6S with various music players and with Tidal. The new CCK fixed everything. It sounds noticeably better as well. It's clunkier, which is too bad.


----------



## foreverzer0

However it still has issues on iOS when other sounds play, probably with a different sampling rate. It starts to have digital artifacting and you have to reseat it.


----------



## ronin22

Hi there
  
 I have both the black and red version of this item and i'm wondering if someone can help me understand something with these.  The red model is suppose to put out more volume than the black so how come when i'm using the black the system volume in the tray says 4% but when i switch to the red, to get the same loudness i have to turn the volume up to 14%? I'm using the laptops USB and streaming tidal but not touching the volume on the application.  I would expect it to be the other way around? Many thanks.


----------



## CactusPete23

ronin22 said:


> Hi there
> 
> I have both the black and red version of this item and i'm wondering if someone can help me understand something with these.  The red model is suppose to put out more volume than the black so how come when i'm using the black the system volume in the tray says 4% but when i switch to the red, to get the same loudness i have to turn the volume up to 14%? I'm using the laptops USB and streaming tidal but not touching the volume on the application.  I would expect it to be the other way around? Many thanks.


 
 As I understand it, the Red is a linear (and digitally controlled) volume scale.  While the Black's volume scale is different.  At full output the Red will be louder.  Somewhere in this thread the rep from Audioquest explained it.


----------



## ronin22

Ahhhh I see, thanks for the reply sorry since it's been asked before.


----------



## jegnyc

georgelai57 said:


> Audioquest's website says that the pops and clicks problem does not arise if one uses the newer Apple USB3 Camera Adapter - the one with both USB and Lightning inputs at one end. Can any owner testify to this please? Thanks.


 
 I can confirm as well.  I can also confirm that I had no problem with the most recent iOS download (using the USB3 adapter - didn't test with the older one).


----------



## ashmodai

foreverzer0 said:


> I suppose try it on a computer.



Thank to all for your suggestions 
I did connect it to a mac and everything worked great. I tried my cck with a ... camera  and nothing happened ... I guess I am lucky enough to have a legit but faulty cck (not even 6months old ...) 
Thanks again for your help


----------



## smellyoldgoat

I just bought the Dragonfly Black 1.5 and I'm using it with my iPhone 7 Plus (iOS 10.1.1) and the non-charging Apple CCK along with an Early 2015 MacBook Air. 
  
 When I use the DFB with my Mac it's crystal clear. However, I am also experiencing pops and crackling when playing audio from my 7+.
  
 One thing that I have noticed is that the longer I use the DFB with my phone, the less the popping happens. When I first started using it, the popping happened at least several times during a single song. Now, it maybe happens once every few songs. I've also noticed that the popping rarely happens on the YouTube App and happens more with the iOS music app. Spotify is somewhere in-between.
  
 I hope this gets fixed with a firmware fix on the Dragonfly. I understand that the newer Apple CCK doesn't have this issue but that adapter is bulkier and I really don't need the charging capability.


----------



## ubikutz

Hi,

 Sorry if this was asked before, just combed the thread but no luck.
  
 I'm a bit concerned about volume control with low impedance / high sensitivity headphones as the Dragonfly v1.2 was a poor match with my Sennheiser IE80 IEMs due to the volume control.
  
 When connected to my mac, already at the first volume tick out of 16 it was quite loud for me so i had really limited volume control.
 I was also quite afraid what would happen if by mistake myself or some software gesture would accidently turn the volume all the way up and either blowing my ears up or damage the IEMs. 
  
 May seem unlikely but just a week ago i had an accident with my iphone - it woke up in my pocket while listening to music and somehow the volume bar got dragged to max because of proximity to the skin in the pocket. Luckily it does not have a lot of power and it was of limited consequence, but if that would have been dragonfly connected, I’m afraid what would have happened. 
 Had a similar accident with my windows machine when gaming last night… volume was at 26/100 but the game i was playing had a hiccup and accidently set the volume to 100/100. 
  
 I’m looking at either Grado SR125e / Grado SR325e or Hifiman 400s as matches for the Dragonfly Red.
 The Grados are 32ohms with SPL 1mW: 99.8 dB while the Hifimans are 22 ohms with 98dB rated sensitivity.
 I usually listen around 60dba for longer listening sessions.
  
 My question is, does the volume control work for this kind of headphones when connected to a mac / windows / iphone? What kind of usable volume range do you usually get for normal listening levels?
 I’m afraid that in order to get normal listening volume I would need to have to stick to really low volume settings on the OS and i have no idea how to really prevent accidents except by going for a DAC with external volume controls. 

 Thanks!


----------



## hi-fi amateur

Does anyone know if audioquest is working on a new DAC that includes a lighting connector. Being able to connect the DragonFly Red directly to the iPhone without using the CCK would be a game changer.


----------



## Slaphead

hi-fi amateur said:


> Does anyone know if audioquest is working on a new DAC that includes a lighting connector. Being able to connect the DragonFly Red directly to the iPhone without using the CCK would be a game changer.




Probably not the best idea to have something the size of the dragonfly connected directly to a lightning port as it'll put a lot force onto the lightning connector if it's in your pocket and you're moving around. For all it's sins one thing the CCK does is alleviate that force due to the fact there's 10cm cable before you get to the solid bit,


----------



## Jared Chew

Has anyone encountered a popping sound when changing volumes during a song? It only happens when there's music playing...
  
 Its the same when I use my MacBook or iPhone 7. Source from Spotify or iTunes. I've set my music player volume to max as instructed and controlling volume with my OS volume control for the MacBook Pro.
  
 Same goes when I change between my earphones and cans. Want to know whether its defective.
  
 edit: using the DragonFly Black 1.5


----------



## smellyoldgoat

jared chew said:


> Has anyone encountered a popping sound when changing volumes during a song? It only happens when there's music playing...
> 
> Its the same when I use my MacBook or iPhone 7. Source from Spotify or iTunes. I've set my music player volume to max as instructed and controlling volume with my OS volume control for the MacBook Pro.
> 
> ...


 
  
 That happens to me too, but not every single time though.


----------



## Jared Chew

I'll see what audioquest replies..I've to go back and test whether it affects the SQ. Did you notice any regress?


----------



## laanis

Setup.
  
 Macbook Pro 12inch - 2012 Model
 Sennheiser ie800
 DragonFly Black
  
  
 Ok sat down tonight running some back to back tests. 
  
 First of all used spotify on high quality setting, i have to say of most of the electronic house and soul music i listened to i couldn't really hear any difference between the DFB and and my standard mac book headphone jack. 
  
 I then switched to some flacs Prince - Purple Rain, tried back to back again, left the output on 44khz although these flacs are 192/24. (not sure what setting i should be using!) 
  
 Anyway i started to notice a difference, the separation, the layers and a more fluid relaxed delivery, quite subtle though i have to say. 
 Either the macbook pro standard dac and output is pretty respectable or my ears aren't well trained. 
  
 Anyone hear any noticeable difference on spotify
 Am i using right setting playing back 192.24 flacs? (44khz) not sure which is right there. Dragonfly has been green throughout my tests, it was magenta but i switched down from 96k
  
 Summary - Not overly impressed doesnt seem to be night n day for my music i listen to mainly on Spotify, although for Rock which is not my main staple diet of music it really did sound good. 
  
 Should i audition the red?


----------



## thamasha69

laanis said:


> Setup.
> 
> Macbook Pro 12inch - 2012 Model
> Sennheiser ie800
> ...




I mainly use iPhone 6S with Spotify- testing my Dad's DF Black vs 6S headphone out and the difference was rather subtle. iPhone headphone out already seemed a bit warm to me... And DF Black has that warmer signature, though seemed a bit smoother in some ways. Other times I couldn't tell- it was very close. Thereafter, I tested the DF Red and it definitely sounded different, but the brightness was a bit much. I ended up with a Hifimediy 9018 which seemed a nice balance between the two.


----------



## laanis

thamasha69 said:


> I mainly use iPhone 6S with Spotify- testing my Dad's DF Black vs 6S headphone out and the difference was rather subtle. iPhone headphone out already seemed a bit warm to me... And DF Black has that warmer signature, though seemed a bit smoother in some ways. Other times I couldn't tell- it was very close. Thereafter, I tested the DF Red and it definitely sounded different, but the brightness was a bit much. I ended up with a Hifimediy 9018 which seemed a nice balance between the two.


 
 Just had a read up on reviews on the Hifimediy 9018 wow, impressive, going to order one and compare with the DFB thanks for the advice most appreciated..


----------



## thamasha69

laanis said:


> Just had a read up on reviews on the Hifimediy 9018 wow, impressive, going to order one and compare with the DFB thanks for the advice most appreciated..




Sure thing man. This post definitely helped my decision:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/805832/new-dragonfly-black-and-red-discussion/1980#post_12932757

Interested in how you think they compare.


----------



## woye263s

Im currently using Galaxy s7 and DFB combo to power my TH900 and MDR Z7. After comparing DFB and Galaxy s7 audio out, I cannot feel much difference in sound quality (bass was little bit more solid with DFB). Is there something I need to do to experience the full potential of DFB? I just connect the unit to my phone and play songs through Tidal offline.


----------



## SpiderNhan

woye263s said:


> Im currently using Galaxy s7 and DFB combo to power my TH900 and MDR Z7. After comparing DFB and Galaxy s7 audio out, I cannot feel much difference in sound quality (bass was little bit more solid with DFB). Is there something I need to do to experience the full potential of DFB? I just connect the unit to my phone and play songs through Tidal offline.


 
 Have you tried playing Tidal through USB Audio Player Pro? My first experience with USB Audio Player Pro was the first time I actually heard my DAC.
  
 Free trial:
 http://www.extreamsd.com/index.php/uapp-trial


----------



## woye263s

I tried UAPP when I had DFR. I preferred the sound of DFB and uninstalled UAPP because I use tidal offline most of the time. As far as I know, DFB does not need UAPP as it can play songs at loud volume without the aid of UAPP. I will try UAPP + DFB and see if it makes a noticeable difference.


----------



## Devodonaldson

woye263s said:


> I tried UAPP when I had DFR. I preferred the sound of DFB and uninstalled UAPP because I use tidal offline most of the time. As far as I know, DFB does not need UAPP as it can play songs at loud volume without the aid of UAPP. I will try UAPP + DFB and see if it makes a noticeable difference.



Noticeable is a vast understatement! The main issue is with Android overall. Android sampling rate conversion happens regardless of what you listen to. Even of usb, the Android system will take your files and resampling them to 48khz before they are transmitted to the dac. So unlike in IOS, the Android software is not sending an unmodified signal to the dac. With uapp,the app is able to bypass android processing and send a perfect signal for the day itself to process. With uapp is where you absolutely get to hear what your music is supposed to sound like. It's unfortunate that tidal offline does not work with it, but man, is it sweet when you are able to stream your music. This is honestly my ONLY reason for even thinking about possibly picking up an ipod. But I'm still 100% Android


----------



## PakoPnF

Hello,
  
Between the Dragon Fly Black (V1.5) or Fiio E10k what is the best?
  
I play games and lissen to spotify.
  
Thanks


----------



## woye263s

I've been comparing sounds from UAPP and foobar 2000 for 2 hours so far and I can surely say that UAPP produces fuller and smoother sound through DFB. I wouldn't say there's a significant improvement in sound quality, but hey, I can at least hear the difference


----------



## woye263s

pakopnf said:


> Hello,
> 
> Between the Dragon Fly Black (V1.5) or Fiio E10k what is the best?
> 
> ...


 
 I have Fiio E12a and I prefer DFB V1.5 though the difference is not huge.


----------



## LazerBear

pakopnf said:


> Hello,
> 
> Between the Dragon Fly Black (V1.5) or Fiio E10k what is the best?
> 
> ...


 
  
 What headphones do you use? Do you listen to spotify lossless or lossy? Depending on Your usage, a DAC might not be worth the investment.


----------



## PakoPnF

lazerbear said:


> What headphones do you use? Do you listen to spotify lossless or lossy? Depending on Your usage, a DAC might not be worth the investment.


 

 I lissen with the free version off Spotify.
  
 I have the AKG K550.
  
 I have an Astro Mixamp Pro2013 on home and the AKG sound 10 times better with those that with the pc.
  
 I know that they are only 32ohms but the DAC is what matters here..
  
 I need a good DAC for the price ofc.


----------



## PakoPnF

woye263s said:


> I have Fiio E12a and I prefer DFB V1.5 though the difference is not huge.


 

 Have you lissen to the e10K?
  
 Does the E12a are better then the 10K?
  
 As the Dragonfly better sound quality and more "bass"?
  
 Thanks


----------



## woye263s

Dragonfly does not exaggerate bass section, but produces solid bass/sub-bass. You can hear clear difference when you listen to "Limit to your love" I'm not sure if E12a is better than e10K


----------



## SpiderNhan

FiiO E12a is just an amp, whereas the E10K and Dragonfly are both DAC and amp.

The E12a will simply amplify the sound it's receiving from whichever DAC it's connected to.


----------



## woye263s

Right, I forgot that e12a is just an amp, but bass boost on e12a gives extra bass for sure. Also, wouldn't amp also affect the sound signature? I heard pairing IFI ICAN with IFI micro IDSD produces smoother sound compared to that from IFI micro IDSD alone.


----------



## mickrich

Quick question for anyone that has black and red.
 I have the Black and find the volume control extremely sensitive with my IE80s.
 Volume at 1 is too quiet and volume at 2 is too loud. 
 I have to use the volume control on spotify to pull it back a bit.
 I have heard that the Red's volume control is more linear.
 Anyone ?
 Thanks


----------



## ilcg1

mickrich said:


> Quick question for anyone that has black and red.
> I have the Black and find the volume control extremely sensitive with my IE80s.
> Volume at 1 is too quiet and volume at 2 is too loud.
> I have to use the volume control on spotify to pull it back a bit.
> ...




Don't own both (only red), however auditioned both before purchasing red and had the same issue with my Westone UMPro 50 - they sounded too loud with black. Red provided better volume control and more weight to the sound. Hope this helps. 

On a side note. Buy UE buffer jack for $10 and it eliminates impendence mismatch and somewhat lowers the signal from amp and thus I listen to music from Red (iPhone 7+ and Spotify) at around 40-45% of volume - couldn't do this without buffer jack (volume was set at 10-15% max without it).
http://pro.ultimateears.com/adjustable-ambient-filters-203


----------



## georgelai57

mickrich said:


> Quick question for anyone that has black and red.
> I have the Black and find the volume control extremely sensitive with my IE80s.
> Volume at 1 is too quiet and volume at 2 is too loud.
> I have to use the volume control on spotify to pull it back a bit.
> ...



I have demoed both and waiting for the red to be in stocks. What you observe is definitely true. At my listening levels, the red offers a wider range of volume. The black was either too soft or too loud.


----------



## mickrich

ilcg1 said:


> Don't own both (only red), however auditioned both before purchasing red and had the same issue with my Westone UMPro 50 - they sounded too loud with black. Red provided better volume control and more weight to the sound. Hope this helps.
> 
> On a side note. Buy UE buffer jack for $10 and it eliminates impendence mismatch and somewhat lowers the signal from amp and thus I listen to music from Red (iPhone 7+ and Spotify) at around 40-45% of volume - couldn't do this without buffer jack (volume was set at 10-15% max without it).
> http://pro.ultimateears.com/adjustable-ambient-filters-203


 
  
  


georgelai57 said:


> I have demoed both and waiting for the red to be in stocks. What you observe is definitely true. At my listening levels, the red offers a wider range of volume. The black was either too soft or too loud.


 
  
 Thanks =]
 I will order a red


----------



## PakoPnF

Yes but red is like the double off the black... double the price! (Black 100$ and red 200$...)
  
 Since you have heard both, do you really think that the red deserves another 100$.
  
 The problem for me is non existent since i am going to use this only in the pc at home.
  
 Thanks


----------



## woye263s

mickrich said:


> Thanks =]
> I will order a red




You can use UAPP and set the volume step to 100.


----------



## woye263s

pakopnf said:


> Yes but red is like the double off the black... double the price! (Black 100$ and red 200$...)
> 
> Since you have heard both, do you really think that the red deserves another 100$.
> 
> ...




I prefer DFB with my headphone (th900 and mdr z7) so i don't think so. However, it really depends on personal taste. You might love DFR


----------



## tangents

I tried my friend's DragonFly Red on my 2013 MacBook Pro. After configuring the device according to the steps outlined in the manual, I played some flacs through Vox player — switching back and forth between the DragonFly and the built-in headphone jack, the difference was subtle. However, using VLC the difference was more noticeable.
  
 I also tried it on my HTC 10 with PowerAmp (non-alpha), and preferred the sound produced by HTC's DAC.
  
 EDIT: switched to USB Audio Player Pro on HTC 10 and the DFR actually sounds pretty good now — I must have been doing it wrong before


----------



## Danivi

Has anybody more new firmware ( in particular to solve android volume problems?)


----------



## Danivi

Sorry for my bad english i meant news about new firmware released by audioquest ?


----------



## malcbo

No new firmware available yet.
 Audioquest's software (DragonFly Desktop App) isn't also available:
http://www.audioquest.com/dragonfly-series/#downloads


----------



## zerolight

What's the current consensus on the DF Red with its iPhone? I'm thinking of getting one to use with me new JH Angies. Will it make them too bright, better, worse? Currently I am using a lightning adapter into iPhone 7 plus which results in a nice low output impedance.


----------



## MX400

testing the Dragonfly Red, Jitterbug and Dragontail in different combinations.

 depending on your laptop or desktop motherboard, we may get different results if the plugs are on USB 2.0 or USB 3.0 ports and what controller is being utilized. recommend experimenting with different ports and combinations of computers rather than come to ultimate conclusions. 

 Jitterbug down-converts to USB 2.0, but I have tried the dragontail on USB 2.0 and 3.0, sounds better on 2.0, but ultimately better without the Dragontail when both the Red and Jitterbug are on USB 3.0.

 I'm losing quality with the Dragontail. if I go direct with Jitterbug to USB 3.0 + Dragonfly Red as 2nd, without Dragontail at all, it's all much, much more vivid. 

 software settings play a role in this as well. I try to use "Direct Sound." ASIO is usually buggy for me, so I just skip that.

 Just tried Creative SB1240 with the Jitterbug, and the THX chip comes out so much more. The music playback is much, much tighter in timing, and plays faster. The bass is more in depth without cracking, mids are amplified correctly without distortion, and trebs blend in very strong with the mids. Needs more gain juice to achieve proper & acceptable sound output thresholds, but still does not take full advantage of good speakers, probably due to the limitation of the SB sound engine; something is suppressing the audio quality. ASIO has the best quality as far as software is concerned, to take full advantage of the SB1240 hardware (it's amazing), if it weren't so freakin' buggy!!, this Creative product would sound truly awesome... I think it's a software/hardware limitation from Creative that relies too much on the industry standards, no one cared enough to try and get it right. 
 Vocals from songs are not over-amplified and do not need as much EQ mixer tweaking like the Dragonfly Red.

 Overall though, Dragonfly Red has a much more superior sound engine. Far less background noise and hissing, does not require additional unnecessary grounding as long as high quality cabling is used. Louder, faster, and more sensitive to external mixer controls (which is good!). Sound channel routing with HPF, LPF and bass-awareness-separation is supremely better with the Dragonfly Red. Don't need ASIO to get superb results, finally.. Audioquest has done an extremely wonderful job with the Dragonfly Red.

 Go straight for the Red and pair it with the Jitterbug.


----------



## MarkF786

The insides of my DFB have become lose so that the headphone jack now wiggles.  I haven't dropped or mistreated it; it just started happening after a month or so of infrequent use.
  
 Has anyone found a way to fix this?  Is it something that would be covered under warranty?
  
 Thanks,
  
 Mark


----------



## LazerBear

markf786 said:


> The insides of my DFB have become lose so that the headphone jack now wiggles.  I haven't dropped or mistreated it; it just started happening after a month or so of infrequent use.
> 
> Has anyone found a way to fix this?  Is it something that would be covered under warranty?
> 
> ...


 
  
 It's happened before to at least a couple of posters. It should be covered under warranty but it isn't a serious issue for the most part, it is just the motherboard getting loose inside the plastic casing. I haven't heard of anyone that fixed it personally, but I suppose it would be fairly simple using some glue. It would entail opening the plastic casing which might void the warranty though.


----------



## slackerpo

lazerbear said:


> It's happened before to at least a couple of posters. It should be covered under warranty but it isn't a serious issue for the most part, it is just the motherboard getting loose inside the plastic casing. I haven't heard of anyone that fixed it personally, but I suppose it would be fairly simple using some glue. It would entail opening the plastic casing which might void the warranty though.


 
  
 just got mine... it seems pretty solid. not sure how to prevent this issue as the most common thing to do is plug/unplug the damn things...
  
 by the way... where is the firmware update?


----------



## Gonzbull

Yea waiting for firmware update too. I want my Dragonfly to make me coffee in the morning. 
But seriously, we may not get an update for ages. Unless the need arises. I hope they enable higher sample rates. Even DSD which the ESS is capable of.


----------



## slackerpo

gonzbull said:


> Yea waiting for firmware update too. I want my Dragonfly to make me coffee in the morning.
> But seriously, we may not get an update for ages. Unless the need arises. I hope they enable higher sample rates. Even DSD which the ESS is capable of.


 
  
 the DFB has been so good with my in ears, that is shaping my new tablet prospect. it made me go for a "not certain compatibility android tablet" to a windows 10 2 in 1 device...
  
 im not ready to move from my nexus 6p just yet, but if a windows phone rocks 2017 i might consider too fosho....


----------



## Devodonaldson

Haven't been in thus thread posting in awhile. The android volume issue made me do some major thinking. I use a galaxy s7 edge. Won't toot because I use Android and Samsung pay. So I purchased a boost mobile moto e for $30,ans bought a 128gb micro sd for $35. I rooted the moto e and now have full access to dragonfly volume control. I use tidal hifi, so I downloaded every album in my library for offline use. My, in essence, $65 128gb Dap caps on a $300 ipod touch. And now, I can focus on purchasing phones for other attributes. Mainly display, camera, and possibly vr. I actually don't mind the second device. It's in my pocket everywhere.


----------



## stuck limo

good sound said:


> Actually a representative from Audioquest stated that they have a solution and it would be delivered in the form of a firmware update this fall. This was some time ago however and they have been silent about it lately. Hopefully they haven't run into any trouble and they will be delivering on their promise shortly.


 
  
 If this actually happened, and I could plug and play the DFB on my Galaxy S7 (instead of going through the UAPP hassle), I'd probably buy one immediately.


----------



## good sound

stuck limo said:


> good sound said:
> 
> 
> > Actually a representative from Audioquest stated that they have a solution and it would be delivered in the form of a firmware update this fall. This was some time ago however and they have been silent about it lately. Hopefully they haven't run into any trouble and they will be delivering on their promise shortly.
> ...




The rep from Audioquest made it sound like a done deal. Pretty much radio silence on the matter lately however, so we'll see.


----------



## Devodonaldson

stuck limo said:


> If this actually happened, and I could plug and play the DFB on my Galaxy S7 (instead of going through the UAPP hassle), I'd probably buy one immediately.



Not as good Sq as streaming through UAPP due to Android up sampling prior to sending to DAC, But it's still better than straight from headphone jack


----------



## stuck limo

devodonaldson said:


> Not as good Sq as streaming through UAPP due to Android up sampling prior to sending to DAC, But it's still better than straight from headphone jack


 
  
 I scrobble all my music, and UAPP does not have that capability. I also don't have Tidal, so that's an issue as well.


----------



## Devodonaldson

stuck limo said:


> I scrobble all my music, and UAPP does not have that capability. I also don't have Tidal, so that's an issue as well.



You can also stream Google play music, but that's another workaround and one has to purchase another app, bubble upper. However, the square upgrade it brings, even to the 320mbps mp3s from Google music is worth it. I use all 3 ways, depending on if I'm at home, streaming, or on the road, offline Tidal using a rooted moto g4


----------



## zolom

Using *Fine Volume Control*  [ https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=opotech.finevolumev2&hl=en ] to smooth the volume control on my S7E with the DFB. No root required.


----------



## pkcpga

good sound said:


> The rep from Audioquest made it sound like a done deal. Pretty much radio silence on the matter lately however, so we'll see.



AQ commented not too long ago on how android is not an easy feat since there's so many different versions in use and so many different manufacturers variations. So who knows, that might be AQ bowing out on that attempt or explaining why it's taking so long.


----------



## ilcg1

Check this out, guys. I might be even selling my DFR if this is pretty good for portable use.
  
 https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/991035804/accessport-hi-res-audio-amplifier-for-iphone-7-cha?ref=hero_thanks
  
 I've pulled a trigger for Schiit Bifrost Multibit/Magni 2 uber stack for a desktop use and first thought to keep DFR for portable use, however I think this one is good enough for on the go. No need to buy Apple CCK and it maintains call function (also has a separate port for charging).


----------



## Silent Xaxal

Would the Dragonfly Red be a massive improvement over my current pc's mobo soundcard? (Asus Maximus VI gene. Z87). Asking because I may want to consider upgrading my setup and I know that companies like Asus, MSI, etc. are using Sabre Dacs with their newest motherboards and laptops.


----------



## cribeiro

ilcg1 said:


> Check this out, guys. I might be even selling my DFR if this is pretty good for portable use.
> 
> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/991035804/accessport-hi-res-audio-amplifier-for-iphone-7-cha?ref=hero_thanks


 
 Look at that, this is exactly what I predicted it would happen, check my posts in this thread a few months back... There is hope! Now, where is the Android version of that?


----------



## ilcg1

cribeiro said:


> Look at that, this is exactly what I predicted it would happen, check my posts in this thread a few months back... There is hope! Now, where is the Android version of that?




Yes, they do have android version as well.


----------



## Nirvana1000

ilcg1 said:


> Check this out, guys. I might be even selling my DFR if this is pretty good for portable use.
> 
> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/991035804/accessport-hi-res-audio-amplifier-for-iphone-7-cha?ref=hero_thanks
> 
> I've pulled a trigger for Schiit Bifrost Multibit/Magni 2 uber stack for a desktop use and first thought to keep DFR for portable use, however I think this one is good enough for on the go. No need to buy Apple CCK and it maintains call function (also has a separate port for charging).



Can you let us know how the SQ of the Bitfrost compares to the DFR when you get it?Thanks.


----------



## ilcg1

nirvana1000 said:


> Can you let us know how the SQ of the Bitfrost compares to the DFR when you get it?Thanks.




Sure. I should have them at the beginning of December and will post my impressions after probably 1 week of listening.


----------



## SpiderNhan

I recently bought a pair of powered speakers(Kanto Yumi) and have been experimenting with feeding them from the Dragonfly Red. With the DFR set to full volume in Windows 10 with no music playing I can hear a high-pitched hum from my speakers. Doing the same thing but with the DFR connected to my Android phone I get no noise.
  
 My question is, would adding a Jitterbug fix this?


----------



## pkcpga

spidernhan said:


> I recently bought a pair of powered speakers(Kanto Yumi) and have been experimenting with feeding them from the Dragonfly Red. With the DFR set to full volume in Windows 10 with no music playing I can hear a high-pitched hum from my speakers. Doing the same thing but with the DFR connected to my Android phone I get no noise.
> 
> My question is, would adding a Jitterbug fix this?




Probably not, if the computer is plugged into the wall you might need a power conditioner.


----------



## Roger5

spidernhan said:


> I recently bought a pair of powered speakers(Kanto Yumi) and have been experimenting with feeding them from the Dragonfly Red. With the DFR set to full volume in Windows 10 with no music playing I can hear a high-pitched hum from my speakers. Doing the same thing but with the DFR connected to my Android phone I get no noise.
> 
> My question is, would adding a Jitterbug fix this?


 
  
 Or you may have a ground loop since it doesn't occur with the Android phone.  If so, you may need to isolate one of the components with a ground isolator.


----------



## LazerBear

ilcg1 said:


> Check this out, guys. I might be even selling my DFR if this is pretty good for portable use.
> 
> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/991035804/accessport-hi-res-audio-amplifier-for-iphone-7-cha?ref=hero_thanks
> 
> I've pulled a trigger for Schiit Bifrost Multibit/Magni 2 uber stack for a desktop use and first thought to keep DFR for portable use, however I think this one is good enough for on the go. No need to buy Apple CCK and it maintains call function (also has a separate port for charging).


 
  
 Well, I mean, AAW purportedly makes nice IEM but.. a 29$ DAC/AMP with all those functions probably means that the actual dac chip and amp module were sourced for a few bucks each. Don't think it's going to be much different (strictly from an output quality pow, of course it will have a more powerful amp and 24bit capabilities) from the standard phone output. then again, who know, maybe they will surprise us.


----------



## ilcg1

lazerbear said:


> Well, I mean, AAW purportedly makes nice IEM but.. a 29$ DAC/AMP with all those functions probably means that the actual dac chip and amp module were sourced for a few bucks each. Don't think it's going to be much different (strictly from an output quality pow, of course it will have a more powerful amp and 24bit capabilities) from the standard phone output. then again, who know, maybe they will surprise us.




Well, DFB 9010 chip costs $6 wholesale. DFR more "high end" 9016 is $10.


----------



## SpiderNhan

pkcpga said:


> Probably not, if the computer is plugged into the wall you might need a power conditioner.







roger5 said:


> Or you may have a ground loop since it doesn't occur with the Android phone.  If so, you may need to isolate one of the components with a ground isolator.



Thanks guys. I'll look into it once I get back from vacation


----------



## reimontok

hey guys, i was looking something like this, but i cant find on my country, anyone have a link to a store ? (prefer chinese) just for avoid taxes


----------



## LazerBear

ilcg1 said:


> Well, DFB 9010 chip costs $6 wholesale. DFR more "high end" 9016 is $10.


 
  
 Well, yes, I phrased that somehow incorrectly. My point is that a DFB sounds quite nice, costs 99$ and has no charging passthrough, lightning chip etc.; The accessport has all those features, but costs a fourth of the DFB.. the most likely thing to have been sacrificed to get to that pricing is audio quality.
  
 This is sort of reinforced by the fact that most of the promotional material on the KS page refers to the ability to play 24bit audio as the main reason why their product sounds better than the phone itself.. which I find a bit misleading, since if your amp sucks or if there is a lot of interference in the circuit, the end result is not going to be good anyways.


----------



## LazerBear

reimontok said:


> hey guys, i was looking something like this, but i cant find on my country, anyone have a link to a store ? (prefer chinese) just for avoid taxes


 
  
 Search for Audioquest Dragonfly on Taobao, there is one seller in Guangdong offering the product. Seeing as at least a few people are having issues with defective products and/or Android connectivity, I wouldn't recommend you to purchase it from an unlicensed seller in a country were most likely you will not be able to return the product under warranty, though.


----------



## chboehm

jegnyc said:


> I can confirm as well.  I can also confirm that I had no problem with the most recent iOS download (using the USB3 adapter - didn't test with the older one).


 

 This is mostly correct.  Most, but not quite all of the occasional issues I have had involve using the non-powered CCK.  Using the CCK with both lightning and USB connections in my car, I have only very rarely had issues.  Not sure if this depends upon having the lightning connector hooked up for power or not; I always have the lightning connector hooked up for power in the car along with the DF Red.  For those looking for portable use, the CCK with both USB and lightning is a lot larger and would be more of a hassle to deal with on the go.  If you are stationary when using it, though, then the CCK with both USB and lightning connections seems to be the more reliable connection.


----------



## chboehm

High pitched hum could be a ground loop issue.  Search for ground loop isolators.  They are cheap and effective for eliminating this type of issue.  Jitterbug, Wyrd, and other USB decrapifiers tend to eliminate the "jitter"...weird scratchy/jerky noises from the power noise in USB causing this.  A consistent hum sounds more like a ground loop issue.


----------



## VRacer-111

ilcg1 said:


> I've pulled a trigger for Schiit Bifrost Multibit/Magni 2 uber stack for a desktop use and first thought to keep DFR for portable use, however I think this one is good enough for on the go. No need to buy Apple CCK and it maintains call function (also has a separate port for charging).




Would be interested in impression of the Bifrost compared to DFR. Been looking at DACs for home desk system use, and the Bifrost has been high on the list - though in the delta-sigma version. Already have headphone amp (Meier Audio Corda JAZZ-ff) and while it works fine with the DFR, the sound straight out of the the DFR is better than the sound with the DFR outputting through the JAZZ-ff. Cleaner with just the DFR and less clear outputting through the external amp - that should be due to the amp section of the DFR outputting to the headphone amp. Meier JAZZ-ff sounds great with direct input from the SACD player DAC, so I know the amp doesn't have any issues with clarity like experienced when connected to the DFR.


----------



## dannyking

Hi,
  
 I'm looking to buy the dragon fly red. If anyone has one for sale and is willing to ship to Canada, please PM me. Thanks


----------



## MX400

for those upgrading from standard products to 'high fidelity.' a trained ear is almost as important as the research one must do in order to "enjoy it."

 seriously depends on the external audio equipment you're using and the sample rates of the audio product being sent from your computer.

 for example, 128kb rate songs, flaws in the bass and vocals can be detected on decent equipment. minimum quality I would recommend is around 188kb rate for music, my opinion. 320k or lossless flac/wav is where it's at, sweet spot! but to be honest, your 128kb songs will still sound slightly better on DFR+JB. don't need the most expensive speakers, but would recommend a +2.1 set at least $100 MSRP. depending on the headphones, you may not need a mixer, but an external mixer might give you more control of how something sounds from your computer if paired with a computer.

 having extra things, sometimes makes people feel like they are entitled to greatness. but if you want to enter a new world of sound, the Dragonfly Red alone, may just be a slight upgrade. Dragonfly Red truly shines when it's paired with nicer products. I have tried a V-Moda set of headphones, tested on the Dragonfly Red+Jitterbug+mixer, didn't notice much - Because the V-Moda headphones are already well refined, and for some, may not need a lot of extra tuning from something like a Dragonfly Red or any extras? A mixer and V-Moda on a gaming motherboard sound card just might be more than enough for the casual listener, for example, or just any great pair of headphones.

 use some good judgement; the Dragonfly Red MRSP is $200, and the Jitterbug is $50, that's $250 of sound enhancements alone, customer may still need a decent set of headphones/speakers/amp#x, etc, to take better advantage of the AudioQuest products. 

 would always recommend Jitterbug paired with Dragonfly Red. the Dragontail looks nice, but the Tail + Jitterbug are a no-go for me, because the Tail pretty much makes the Jitterbug useless, in my opinion, as far as audio quality is concerned.

 but if you want the low down and kicking the bucket pretty soon, the Dragonfly Red + Jitterbug are amazing together... it's like going from a consumer laptop, even if it costs over $1K, to a high-end business laptop for the same price or less; meaning, the business laptop was built and engineered for greatness, it's not just something that was just randomly/accidentally made for anyone.


----------



## Amacbrown

sorry to move off topic....... the issue with the new Iphones 7 & 7+ and the clicking/popping ever 5 or so secs.  As these phones are many weeks old now I'm wondering if the hardware has had a fix implemented so are there any users who don't have this issue?  Note this is using the standard slim CCK cable (not the USB3 cable)


----------



## zerolight

amacbrown said:


> sorry to move off topic....... the issue with the new Iphones 7 & 7+ and the clicking/popping ever 5 or so secs.  As these phones are many weeks old now I'm wondering if the hardware has had a fix implemented so are there any users who don't have this issue?  Note this is using the standard slim CCK cable (not the USB3 cable)


 
  
 Oh no. Is this a thing? I'm getting a Red for Xmas to go with my 7+ and I have already bought the slim CCK.


----------



## ken6217

dannyking said:


> Hi,
> 
> I'm looking to buy the dragon fly red. If anyone has one for sale and is willing to ship to Canada, please PM me. Thanks


 

 You can buy mine if you want. Even though I may lose the sale, don't waste your money on this DAC. I have used this on my Macbook Pro and Windows laptop. If I closed my eyes and someone plugged it in and out, I would be hard pressed to know if I was listening through it or not.


----------



## dannyking

ken6217 said:


> You can buy mine if you want. Even though I may lose the sale, don't waste your money on this DAC. I have used this on my Macbook Pro and Windows laptop. If I closed my eyes and someone plugged it in and out, I would be hard pressed to know if I was listening through it or not.


 
  
  
 Hi,
  
 Thanks but I already got the DFR. I have to say,   I disagree with you 100% on this  though. This dac is amazing and brings the sound of my macbook air to all whole different level. Telling the difference from my macbook's dac in a blind test would be the easiest thing for me as the sound changes completely. Even without the change in clarity, the obvious change in stage ( like moving from 2d to a 3d resolution) is clearly apparent to my ears at least.  I've read some people write that the dac in macbook and iphone 6  isn't that far off but that's far from the case IMO. I wouldn't know of any suggestions to give you as I feel they should sound different at least. You may not think better, but different for sure.


----------



## Amacbrown

Hi Zerolight, yes I'm afraid it is, I emailed Audioquest and they told me that its a problem with Apple and we have to wait.  They suggested getting the USB3 cable as this works but this irked me as the USB3 cable is £39 and its got a much thicker cable and larger housing.  I just can't see how I can use that combo commuting by train etc. With the slim CCK cable I can fold it under the 7+ in my palm and it would have been worth this extra bulk for the quality.  I new ending my marriage of 6S+ and IE800 was going to end badly, the IE800 and the little white apple dongle just annoys me with the IE800 right angle connection (was lovely with the 6S+).  I've ventured down Bluetooth route and tried, IE800 with SONY SBH-54, Creative E3 and Astell & Kern XB10.  All sent back and I'm back to 7s+ IE800 and Mojo.  Having a few months without Mojo for commuting and then using her again you immediately notice what you had been missing.  I have been forced to find a way to be happy with the inconveniences of Mojo and commuting.  I found a 35cm USB to Micro cable and with the mandatory Apple CCK cable this allow me to keep Iphone 7+ in one suit breast pocket and mojo in the other.  The IE800 right angle connection means that the mojo can sit on it in the pocket without issue and the straight connection in for the micro usb feeds out of the pocket and across the chest to the Iphone 7s+.  There is enough cable length to allow yourself to operate the phone, quickly disconnect the lightening cable to answer a call.  There is also enough cable slack to allow for movie watching while sitting and standing.  I wish Mojo could control the volume at the phone, this was really great with the DFR.  Even though Mojo is noticeable better I would have preferred to be able to use DFR.  I've not given up and will be testing DFR at an Apple store this weekend and if I can demonstrate that its an issue with my phone I will demand a new one.  If not (which i fear will be the case) I have a bigger quandary, move on the DFR and continue with not quite ideal Mojo or get a refund on the Iphone 7s+ and go back a model or change to a compatible Android...


----------



## zerolight

Hey Amac

I returned my cck and will buy a cck usb3 which several posters have confirmed work fine with the iPhone and DFR. I'm sure the Mojo is great but I don't want to spend so much and it's too bulky compared to the CCK3 AND DFR.


----------



## ilcg1

No popping or clicking with cheap cck I bought from AliExpress fo couple of bucks with my iPhone 7+ and Dragonfly red.


----------



## zerolight

@ilcg link?


----------



## ilcg1

zerolight said:


> @ilcg link?



The link I bought it from doesn't work, but here is a screen shot of my order - try to google it or search on AliExpress.


----------



## kranebrain

Does anyone know if the dragonfly red is capable of adequately powering the MrSpeakers Ether C Flows?


----------



## barbes

kranebrain said:


> Does anyone know if the dragonfly red is capable of adequately powering the MrSpeakers Ether C Flows?




Happy to say yes, and sounds great. It doesn't leave you with a huge amount of headroom but more than enough volume and the SQ is excellent.


----------



## kranebrain

Is the DFR still considered "bright" and/or brighter than the DFB? Or did they tweak the DFR with a firmware update?


----------



## SearchOfSub

kranebrain said:


> Is the DFR still considered "bright" and/or brighter than the DFB? Or did they tweak the DFR with a firmware update?





It's neutral to a little bit bright, as in brighter tone. Bass is somewhat tight and defined but lack compare to higher end dacs. Extension treble is good and air, imaging, staging all good. I think its fair price dac.


----------



## drummguy26

I dunno, is it just me or does the DFB and DFR thin out the mids? I was curious and just plugged my headphones directly into my iphone 7, and I noticed more body in the mids. Then plugged in my DFR and the mids were just less with amped up highs. I have IEM's so not sure what happens with full sized cans, but its just my observations. Anyone else noticed this?


----------



## VRacer-111

drummguy26 said:


> I dunno, is it just me or does the DFB and DFR thin out the mids? I was curious and just plugged my headphones directly into my iphone 7, and I noticed more body in the mids. Then plugged in my DFR and the mids were just less with amped up highs. I have IEM's so not sure what happens with full sized cans, but its just my observations. Anyone else noticed this?


 

Mids seem fine and not thinned out to me, on both the TH-X00 PH and SHP9500...certainly better than just plugging the phones into devices directly. I mainly listen to music with the DFR on a laptop and the music most listened to contains low to midrange emphasis. The DFR is an absolutely stellar match to the TH-X00 PH's.


----------



## lsl6213

I am experiencing popping and clicking on my dfr with iphone 7 and camera to usb adapter. I am using kaisertone at the moment. But it seems to have no issue if i use ampliflac app.


----------



## CalvinW

Can confirm as well. Using the Dragonfly Red connected to iPhone 7 with the smaller USB adaptor. Spotify crackles and buzzes like there is no tomorrow. If Audioquest's only suggestion is to use the bigger charging usb 3 adaptor, then that is really a disappointment. I only got the Dragonfly red because of it's form factor. If I was to use the bigger adaptor, why don't I just use my Chord mojo with the smaller adaptor instead. Also, using the jitterbug did not help whatsoever. Audioquest really needs to get their crap together, or just don't advertise it saying it will work with iOS. What a load of disappointment...


----------



## corius

calvinw said:


> Can confirm as well. Using the Dragonfly Red connected to iPhone 7 with the smaller USB adaptor. Spotify crackles and buzzes like there is no tomorrow. If Audioquest's only suggestion is to use the bigger charging usb 3 adaptor, then that is really a disappointment. I only got the Dragonfly red because of it's form factor. If I was to use the bigger adaptor, why don't I just use my Chord mojo with the smaller adaptor instead. Also, using the jitterbug did not help whatsoever. Audioquest really needs to get their crap together, or just don't advertise it saying it will work with iOS. What a load of disappointment...


 
  
 Perhaps you should blame Apple for bringing out a new phone that isn't compatible with the Dragonfly?
  
 It is akin to blaming Shure because my se846s can't plug directly into the iPhone 7!


----------



## SomeGuyDude

FWIW the DFR also powers the HD650s pretty damn well. I wasn't expecting that, but with volume around 80% out of my laptop (off the charger) it's SURPRISINGLY good.


----------



## bflat

corius said:


> Perhaps you should blame Apple for bringing out a new phone that isn't compatible with the Dragonfly?
> 
> It is akin to blaming Shure because my se846s can't plug directly into the iPhone 7!


 

 I think this is squarely on AudioQuest and nothing to do with Apple for the following reason:
  

DFR is not MFi certified Apple device
The original CCK cables are guaranteed to do only one thing - transfer files from your digital camera to your iPad
CCK is not officially supported on iPhone - you don't see any mention of iPhone on Apples product page
Apple doesn't officially support any other USB protocol except for MFi
  
 The reason why the new CCK USB 3.0 dongle seems to work better is that it is advertised and spec'd by Apple to work with general USB devices. It also has a separate lightning connector so you can power the CCK to turn it into a real USB hub without the power limit issue of their lightning port. But again, it is not officially supported on iPhone 7. When AudioQuest states "work with CCK on iOS" it is 100% their responsibility to make sure that is true.
  
 To your Shure analog, I think it would be more fair to ask "what would Shure say if your 3rd party MMCX didn't fit their sockets?" Shure would tell you that's your problem.
  
 I think a "fair" criticism would be:
  
 Apple - please make a USB DAC dongle that you will support across multiple DAC vendors
 AudioQuest - please make an MFi version of the DFR
  
 BTW I cannot reproduce that distortion issue on either original or new CCK for my iPhone 7. Both work fine on Apple Music and iAudioGate apps.


----------



## SomeGuyDude

bflat said:


> I think this is squarely on AudioQuest and nothing to do with Apple for the following reason:
> 
> 
> DFR is not MFi certified Apple device
> ...


 
 You can't blame AQ because they aren't keeping up with Apple's demands that everything be certified through their insane specifications. 
  
 Apple is the graveyard of third party anythings.


----------



## bflat

someguydude said:


> You can't blame AQ because they aren't keeping up with Apple's demands that everything be certified through their insane specifications.
> 
> Apple is the graveyard of third party anythings.


 

 I agree, but you can't say your product works with CCK, then claim Apple is to blame when there are problems. There are plenty of DACs out there that work perfectly fine with CCK so clearly AQ is not doing something right that is fully in their control to fix.
  
 Anyway, this is off topic and purely personal opinion so I'll stop here. At least AQ updated their product page with the latest on the CCK USB 3.0 recommendation in their FAQ.


----------



## CalvinW

corius said:


> Perhaps you should blame Apple for bringing out a new phone that isn't compatible with the Dragonfly?
> 
> It is akin to blaming Shure because my se846s can't plug directly into the iPhone 7!


 
  
 Totally agree with what bflat said.
 Furthermore, if problems only occurred on iOS, then yes, maybe it has to do with apple more than Audioquest. 
 However, there are also problems with Android even when using the Audioquest Dragontail.
 Everything using UAPP works fine, but you can't properly control the volume on Spotify. 
  
 They advertised it as working great for both iOS and Android, and how it works perfectly with Spotify as well. 
 So I'm just holding them accountable for what they promised, expecting nothing more and nothing less.


----------



## bflat

Back on topic - I have a theory on the CCK problem and possible solution, but highly speculative:
  
 The CCK problem does not affect all users so what's the variable? A recent Apple audit of genuine Apple accessories sold on Amazon showed that approx 90% of "genuine" Apple accessories were in fact fake. Perhaps those experiencing the audio problems were sold fake CCK cables?
  
 If anyone purchased their CCK from an Apple Store and have the audio problem, then that will disprove this theory. I've purchased all my iPhone accessories from Apple directly for a while so my CCK is 100% genuine and works fine with my iPhone 7 on latest iOS. Also the latest CCK 3.0 version is a pretty new adapter so fake ones may not be out yet.
  
 If this all turns out to be true, then it would absolve both Apple and AQ. It would also be ironically funny considering how AQ makes a big deal about counterfeit AQ cables LOL!


----------



## west0ne

calvinw said:


> Totally agree with what bflat said.
> Furthermore, if problems only occurred on iOS, then yes, maybe it has to do with apple more than Audioquest.
> However, there are also problems with Android even when using the Audioquest Dragontail.
> Everything using UAPP works fine, but you can't properly control the volume on Spotify.
> ...


 
 It's probably unfair to bring Android into this argument as I think in the case of Android the problem does actually rest with Android and its failure to properly support USB audio class devices. No USB audio class devices work 'properly' with Android as the volume controls on Android don't get passed onto the internal DAC hardware volume control, most USB audio devices get set to maximum whereas the DFR/DFB are set below maximum. If you are rooted and have access to ALSA controls you can see that the volume buttons on the phone have no effect on the DAC hardware volume levels.
  
 Could it be that Apple devices running iOS 10.x are also having issues properly supporting USB audio class devices and could this be due to the fact that Apple never intended and never actually supported USB audio over the CCK so when testing the CCK with iOS and iDevices never actually bothered testing it with audio devices.
  
 If something isn't actually certified for use with Apple I don't think you can really point the finger at Apple when the combination of  devices won't work. Audioquest should at least specify how they tested the Dragonfly in a working combination and change their advertising to say 'limited iOS/Android support'. In the case of Android they have at least acknowledged that there is an issue.
  
 The MFi specification and certification process may be very onerous but there is at least some assurance that an MFi certified device will work with iDevices. I'm no fan of Apple because of their locked down system but by locking it down and having the certification process it should at least mean devices and accessories work together properly, which is what the 'average' consumer wants.


----------



## Slaphead

bflat said:


> I think this is squarely on AudioQuest and nothing to do with Apple for the following reason:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Well, when Audioquest released the latest incarnations of the the Dragonfly they did indeed work correctly with the iOS devices available at the time. However Apple released the iPhone 7, and at the same time altered something that broke compatibility with the original CCK and the DF. This is not Audioquest's fault.

As for MFi - forget it. My junk drawer is littered with MFi certified devices which no longer work even with the original hardware they were bought for as iOS updates have rendered them incompatible.

The problem with MFi for manufacturers is that Apple change the goalposts all the time. Make something today that Apple's given you the MFi all clear on - great, but that's no guarantee that it'll work with the next iOS system, or the next hardware devices.

MFi is really a very raw deal for the manufacturers. You have to pay Apple, and hand over your intellectual property to them, and there's no assurance that the device will continue working. This is also a raw deal for the consumer as the MFi licensing costs are passed on to them, and they're the ones that end up with expensive useless junk when the next iOS comes along.

Better to have non MFi products that use accepted standards and will work across a range of other devices and operating systems, so at least you can still use them with other stuff when Apple breaks the compatibility.


----------



## jegnyc

bflat said:


> Back on topic - I have a theory on the CCK problem and possible solution, but highly speculative:
> 
> The CCK problem does not affect all users so what's the variable? A recent Apple audit of genuine Apple accessories sold on Amazon showed that approx 90% of "genuine" Apple accessories were in fact fake. Perhaps those experiencing the audio problems were sold fake CCK cables?
> 
> ...


 
 I'm afraid I must disprove your theory.  I bought my CCK from the Apple Store and had the problem with my IPhone 6s (but not my other iDevices).  The 6s works with the USB-3 CCK.  I do not own the iPhone 7.


----------



## UNOE

jegnyc said:


> bflat said:
> 
> 
> > Back on topic - I have a theory on the CCK problem and possible solution, but highly speculative:
> ...



So you had to buy a bigger bulkier more expensive CCK to replace one you already own on a older device that was working before. I don't want to pay another $40 then have my old $30 purchase just laying around.


----------



## jegnyc

unoe said:


> So you had to buy a bigger bulkier more expensive CCK to replace one you already own on a older device that was working before. I don't want to pay another $40 then have my old $30 purchase just laying around.


 
 Each to his own.  Do what you gotta do.


----------



## Slaphead

unoe said:


> So you had to buy a bigger bulkier more expensive CCK to replace one you already own on a older device that was working before. *I don't want to pay another $40 then have my old $30 purchase just laying around.*




Sorry mate, but that's the world we live in. Either you suck up the additional cost, or you go without.

On average I get about 3 years life out of anything tech that I buy - regardless of expense, and I factor that into the purchase. Sure some things have lasted a lot longer, but some things have only lasted 6 months before the compatibility's been broken by advancing technology, and dare I say it - planned obsolescence.

It's not right, it's not fair, but that's life in the tech world.


----------



## CalvinW

Well, the funny thing is that the Mojo works perfectly well with any android or apple devices, no matter how new or how old. So they must be doing something right. It is much bulkier than the DFR but at least I won't have to to purchase a new CCK cable everytime they come up with one that is supposed to alleviate problems. Time to bring the trusty mojo back to work


----------



## Slaphead

calvinw said:


> Well, the funny thing is that the Mojo works perfectly well with any android or apple devices, no matter how new or how old. So they must be doing something right. It is much bulkier than the DFR but at least I won't have to to purchase a new CCK cable everytime they come up with one that is supposed to alleviate problems. Time to bring the trusty mojo back to work




It's not actually a funny thing when you think about it. The Mojo has it's own power supply - a battery, whereas the DF is totally reliant on the power it can draw from the iToy.

I suspect there's an issue with power draw on the iPhone 7 in conjunction with the original CCK that's very noticeable with something that is dependent on strict real time processing - such as a DAC/Amp, causing the power delivery to trip out every so often, but totally irrelevant with other devices such as storage, or even MIDI input devices.

As to why the USB 3 version of the CCK resolves this problem is anybody's guess, but I suspect the chipset in there is newer and more power efficient, and thus alleviates the problem.


----------



## slackerpo

where is the update?


----------



## SomeGuyDude

slackerpo said:


> where is the update?


 
  
 Same place the desktop app is: in the hopes and dreams of a few AQ devs that we'll never get the opportunity to see.


----------



## slackerpo

someguydude said:


> Same place the desktop app is: in the hopes and dreams of a few AQ devs that we'll never get the opportunity to see.


 
  
 dang
  
 im mean besides the late report of an impending fall update, at launch they did say they would be firmware updates...
  
 if they fail to deliver next year (at least one damn update)... i think things should get messy.


----------



## CalvinW

Haha, probably won't see updates anytime soon. We can't even download the desktop software yet. 
 Things are already getting messy


----------



## CalvinW

slaphead said:


> It's not actually a funny thing when you think about it. The Mojo has it's own power supply - a battery, whereas the DF is totally reliant on the power it can draw from the iToy.
> 
> I suspect there's an issue with power draw on the iPhone 7 in conjunction with the original CCK that's very noticeable with something that is dependent on strict real time processing - such as a DAC/Amp, causing the power delivery to trip out every so often, but totally irrelevant with other devices such as storage, or even MIDI input devices.
> 
> As to why the USB 3 version of the CCK resolves this problem is anybody's guess, but I suspect the chipset in there is newer and more power efficient, and thus alleviates the problem.


 
  
 Well, someone did report that a rip-off version of the original CCK is working without any issues... I bought an authentic one from the Apple store and it's not working too great. Time to try a $2 dongle from eBay


----------



## SomeGuyDude

slackerpo said:


> dang
> 
> im mean besides the late report of an impending fall update, at launch they did say they would be firmware updates...
> 
> if they fail to deliver next year (at least one damn update)... i think things should get messy.


 
  
 It's important to remember that, as much as we like a few of AQ's products, their bread and butter is retardedly overpriced cables. We got lucky that their headphones and the Dragonfly are amazing, but I feel like they have a whole bunch of corporate nonsense going on with a couple good eggs in there (Skylar, for example). I'm not holding my breath.
  
 Like the other poster said, they promised us a desktop app at launch and that was... eight months ago?


----------



## west0ne

My understanding was that the desktop app was to be used for the purposes of updating the firmware of the DFB/DFR, so in the absence of any new firmware there would be little point in realeasing the desktop app. If there is ever a firmware realease then the desktop app will come at the same time.

It is difficult to know how AQ will update the firmware, the DFR/DFB are supposed to comply with USB Audio Class device standards and seem to work properly with desktop OS's. We know that Android doesn't fully comply with the USB Audio standard and perhaps the most recent iOS doesn't either as it seems that most of the complaints have started since iOS 10.

I always anticipated that any update to the firmware for Android would be a simple fix that set the internal hardware volume to 100% rather than giving full hardware volume control through the Android volume buttons or slider.

I'm not a developer but I assume it is easier to diagnose and troubleshoot Android as it is easier to get root access whereas iOS is locked down and access at a hardware level is more difficult , of course with Android you have to contend with the vast array of hardware and OEM customisation so consistent performance across all devices is hard to guarantee.


----------



## ilcg1

https://www.ebay.com/itm/152234114772 

Here is the one I bought for couple of bucks on AliExpress - not sure why it's not available there anymore, however it is available on eBay. Zero issues whatsoever.


----------



## LazerBear

someguydude said:


> You can't blame AQ because they aren't keeping up with Apple's demands that everything be certified through their insane specifications.
> 
> Apple is the graveyard of third party anythings.


 
  
 I think the point isn't that they can't keep up, is that they advertise the product as fully compatible, when in truth it is a hit-or-miss situation. Honestly, the same is true for Android as well, but at least there they point people to an app to check if USB OTG is supported by their device (which is still just one of the current issues with android).


----------



## zerolight

It's disappointing that you need the larger USB3 CCK3, but it's hyperbole to suggest it's so big you might as well use a Mojo. It's about half and inch wider and about the same thickness and length. It's also got what looks like a more durable cable. Chances are it's going to be folded back behind your phone with the dac attached so the extra bulk is less noticeable at that point. Not as sleek to look at but not a big deal, and you can charge whilst listening at work. Always useful.


----------



## zerolight

ilcg1 said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/152234114772
> 
> Here is the one I bought for couple of bucks on AliExpress - not sure why it's not available there anymore, however it is available on eBay. Zero issues whatsoever.




Cheers. Ordered to see how it compares to the USB3. Handy when wearing jeans and a Tshirt I suppose.


----------



## foreverzer0

If that eBay one works, thank goodness. I was using the usb3 cck and it was a PIA since the cable is hardly flexible and it was just bulky for portable use. My DFR ended up unstable even with the USB3 cck, it would sometimes have digital stutter (I think when different sounds played with different sample rate). This kind of poor usability from trying to shove all that into my jacket pocket and the digital stutter made me return my DFR. At this point the Mojo with the new cck butt plate seems like a better option in regards to convenience. I'm future proofing and adding the much desired convenience with a LEAR BTC-01 bluetooth dac/amp cable for my CIEM's for my commute. It's my way of not giving into the Bose QC35 for potentially similar price (ciems can be had for less than 300 usd these days), better audio quality, comfort, and convenience. If the iPhone 8 uses usb-c, just hope they have a usb-c cck adaptor. Otherwise it might not have ports at all and use all wireless connectivity and charging.


----------



## CalvinW

Hopefully, I'm waiting for the cheap CCK to arrive as well. If it still doesn't work, then the Dragonfly Red is just a failure in my book. Judging by the form factor, I was thinking Audioquest was aiming it toward mobile users, but this obviously wasn't the case. People say it's not Audioquest's fault that it doesn't work, so I'm just wondering what phones did they try it out on in order to see if it works. My guess, they just skipped out on the entire process or just used some ancient phone like the iPhone 4 and called it a day.


----------



## SomeGuyDude

calvinw said:


> Hopefully, I'm waiting for the cheap CCK to arrive as well. If it still doesn't work, then the Dragonfly Red is just a failure in my book. Judging by the form factor, I was thinking Audioquest was aiming it toward mobile users, but this obviously wasn't the case. People say it's not Audioquest's fault that it doesn't work, so I'm just wondering what phones did they try it out on in order to see if it works. My guess, they just skipped out on the entire process or just used some ancient phone like the iPhone 4 and called it a day.


 
 AQ has never called the DFR a mobile device. 
  


> While the original DragonFly defined the market for micro-DACs, its USB power draw made it compatible with computers only. Music lovers have craved a more portable version—one that could be reliably used with Apple and Android smartphones and tablets.
> 
> We’re delighted to present two new options that do just that: DragonFly Black and DragonFly Red.


 
 The Red is intended to be a desktop DAC, the DFB is for mobile. The DFR can work with mobile, but that's not its purpose.


----------



## CalvinW

someguydude said:


> AQ has never called the DFR a mobile device.
> 
> The Red is intended to be a desktop DAC, the DFB is for mobile. The DFR can work with mobile, but that's not its purpose.


 
 That's only your interpretation. Their website says otherwise.
  
The Next Generation: DragonFly Black & DragonFly Red While the original DragonFly defined the market for micro-DACs, its USB power draw made it compatible with computers only. Music lovers have craved a more portable version—one that could be reliably used with Apple and Android smartphones and tablets.

We’re delighted to present two new options that do just that: DragonFly Black and DragonFly Red.

Convenience and performance are no longer mutually exclusive. With DragonFly Black and Red, any computer, laptop, tablet, or smartphone can be used as a true high-fidelity music player, allowing music lovers to enjoy beautiful sound wherever they go, whenever they please.


----------



## CalvinW

someguydude said:


> AQ has never called the DFR a mobile device.
> 
> The Red is intended to be a desktop DAC, the DFB is for mobile. The DFR can work with mobile, but that's not its purpose.


 
 I'm pretty sure the terms "mobile" and "portable" are synonymous.


----------



## SomeGuyDude

calvinw said:


> I'm pretty sure the terms "mobile" and "portable" are synonymous.


 
 No... no they are not. Not even remotely.
  
 "Portable" means it's easy to take from place to place. "Mobile" means it's something you can use while on the move.
  
 A laptop is portable, a cell phone is mobile.
  
 Ya dig?


----------



## CalvinW

someguydude said:


> No... no they are not. Not even remotely.
> 
> "Portable" means it's easy to take from place to place. "Mobile" means it's something you can use while on the move.
> 
> ...


 
 Okay, but that doesn't change what they actually said. The key message here is that they outright stated that it will work with Apple and Android smartphones, and notice the word "reliably".
  
Music lovers have craved a more portable version—one that could be *reliably used with Apple and Android smartphones and tablets*.


----------



## pkcpga

kranebrain said:


> Is the DFR still considered "bright" and/or brighter than the DFB? Or did they tweak the DFR with a firmware update?




I find the dfr to be bright to very bright with tight quick barely there bass. Also to have thin mids but it does produce a good amount of detail in the highs for its price point. Didn't work for me with my headphone collection, spending more got me a more balanced pleasant sound.


----------



## ilcg1

zerolight said:


> Cheers. Ordered to see how it compares to the USB3. Handy when wearing jeans and a Tshirt I suppose.




)) no problem. Also, highly recommend getting this for IEM - very handy stuff for very little money (it does the same thing as ifi iematch for less money) - gives a lot more volume control to play with.

http://pro.ultimateears.com/adjustable-ambient-filters-225


----------



## west0ne

someguydude said:


> AQ has never called the DFR a mobile device.
> 
> The Red is intended to be a desktop DAC, the DFB is for mobile. The DFR can work with mobile, but that's not its purpose.


 
 AQ did make a big noise about both the DFB & DFR having a low power requirement specifically making them usable with mobile devices through OTG, referencing the fact that the the Dragonfly 1.2 required more power than most USB OTG could provide.
  
 Throughout their marketing of the DFB/DFR they pointed to them as being suited to mobile device use and make reference to both phones and tablets. They obviously did some testing with mobile devices as they make it clear that there are issues with Android, because of the way Android works.
  
 The DFR has a higher power output at the headphone end than the DFB but as I understand it the DFR is also more power efficient than the DFB so is actually probably more suited to mobile device use as it would be less demanding on the battery.
  
 We know that Android does not properly comply with the USB Audio standards and you can't blame AQ for this. Many people were reporting successfully using both the DFB/DFR with iOS devices, however there seem to be more and more comments about noise (popping/clicking), could this be an issue introduced with iOS 10,x.
  
 I don't think it is unreasonable for any consumer to infer from the AQ marketing that the DFB/DFR devices were suited for mobile use.
  
 Quote directly from AQ site that is still on display.
  


> While the original DragonFly defined the market for micro-DACs, its USB power draw made it compatible with computers only. Music lovers have craved a more portable version—one that could be reliably used with Apple and Android smartphones and tablets.
> We’re delighted to present two new options that do just that: DragonFly Black and DragonFly Red.


----------



## zerolight

The eBay place cancelled my order. Ran out of stock. I'll just stick with my CCK3 for now.


----------



## Amacbrown

The good people at Apple London allowed me to swap a 5 week old IPhone 7 + for a new one to work with the DFR. I told the guy that after testing in the store the few display models I tried didn't click. When I got home to the quiet of my lounge guess what made itself aware after a few mins !! DFR has gone back to Amazon with a note that the advertising needs to state not compatible with IPhone 7. I feel guilty that I've got a replacement phone from Apple when I shouldn't have. Most annoying aspect of the whole experience is the wasted hours with a product with a compatibility flaw. I will say that even though it clicked every 5secs for the 4secs that it doesn't the music is better than the standard Apple dongle for the 7 models.


----------



## Slaphead

I've just checked something, and it would appear to answer this iPhone 7 and Dragonfly issue.

It's not the Dragonfly that's not compatible with the iPhone 7, it's the original CCK that's not compatible.


Check Apples site here: http://www.apple.com/shop/product/MD821AM/A/lightning-to-usb-camera-adapter?fnode=91

The iPhone 7 is not listed as compatible with the original CCK - scroll down to find the compatibility list.


Now, check the compatibility list for the CCK USB 3 here: http://www.apple.com/shop/product/MK0W2AM/A/lightning-to-usb-3-camera-adapter?fnode=91

And you'll see that the iPhone 7 is listed


So, if you have an iPhone 7 then you need the new USB 3 CCK, at least if you want faultless operation.

This really isn't Audioquest's fault.


----------



## Amacbrown

Useful observation if it's up to date (my CCK works with Mojo and 7+) logically it's up to the accessories company to ensure compatibility and advertise as such.


----------



## zerolight

amacbrown said:


> Useful observation if it's up to date (my CCK works with Mojo and 7+) logically it's up to the accessories company to ensure compatibility and advertise as such.


 
 It's farily widely reported in this thread that the DFR/DFB doesn't like the original CCK with the iphone 6 or 7. You need the USB3 version. It seems to be a weird incompatibility that neither AQ or Apple understand, but that is resolved in the design of the USB3 variant.


----------



## cribeiro

someguydude said:


> FWIW the DFR also powers the HD650s pretty damn well. I wasn't expecting that, but with volume around 80% out of my laptop (off the charger) it's SURPRISINGLY good.


 
 Interesting, I tested the DFR with my HD650 and I was not impressed at all. Maybe it could not get enough power out of my HTC One M8. Pity I did not test it with my laptop.


----------



## shotgunshane

slaphead said:


> I've just checked something, and it would appear to answer this iPhone 7 and Dragonfly issue.
> 
> It's not the Dragonfly that's not compatible with the iPhone 7, it's the original CCK that's not compatible.
> 
> ...




6S+ popped with old CCK and DFR. AQ has discussed with Apple, from my understanding. The newer CCK apparently fixes the popping on any iOS device that has it.


----------



## jegnyc

shotgunshane said:


> 6S+ popped with old CCK and DFR. AQ has discussed with Apple, from my understanding. The newer CCK apparently fixes the popping on any iOS device that has it.


 
 True, some did (including mine with the red and the black), but the number of complaints on this thread has jumped enormously since the introduction of the iPhone 7 and iOS 10.


----------



## LazerBear

cribeiro said:


> Interesting, I tested the DFR with my HD650 and I was not impressed at all. Maybe it could not get enough power out of my HTC One M8. Pity I did not test it with my laptop.


 
  
 If you were not using UAPP it might also be the fault of the HTC decoding the signal before sending it to the DFR. Android has this weird loop that prevents any DAC to reach full potential unless you use UAPP.


----------



## cribeiro

lazerbear said:


> If you were not using UAPP it might also be the fault of the HTC decoding the signal before sending it to the DFR. Android has this weird loop that prevents any DAC to reach full potential unless you use UAPP.


 

 Good hint for future reference, although I did use UAPP trial version. I also found out that the DFR internal volume set by UAPP was kept for other apps.


----------



## SomeGuyDude

cribeiro said:


> Interesting, I tested the DFR with my HD650 and I was not impressed at all. Maybe it could not get enough power out of my HTC One M8. Pity I did not test it with my laptop.


 
 My DFR could never get enough power out of my old HTC 10. Definitely wouldn't work with the 650s.


----------



## msq123

I have recently bought AQ Dragonfly Red and looking to get an iPhone adapter to use with my iPhone/iPad.  I have read in few places that there are issues with popping sound when used with Apple USB 2.0 lightning adapter but neither Apple nor AQ is able to determine the cause but the issue is resolved with USB 3.0 lightning cable.  My issue is that I have got this DAC/AMP for portability and prefer the USB 2 with the sleek build rather than v3 which is more hefty with charging capability unless the issue is quite severe.  So my question is for existing users who have experienced the issue and if they think USB 3.0 will resolve it in which case I will just bite the bullet.  
  
 Apologies if this has been asked before, I appreciate any guidance I can get.


----------



## jegnyc

msq123 said:


> I have recently bought AQ Dragonfly Red and looking to get an iPhone adapter to use with my iPhone/iPad.  I have read in few places that there are issues with popping sound when used with Apple USB 2.0 lightning adapter but neither Apple nor AQ is able to determine the cause but the issue is resolved with USB 3.0 lightning cable.  My issue is that I have got this DAC/AMP for portability and prefer the USB 2 with the sleek build rather than v3 which is more hefty with charging capability unless the issue is quite severe.  So my question is for existing users who have experienced the issue and if they think USB 3.0 will resolve it in which case I will just bite the bullet.
> 
> Apologies if this has been asked before, I appreciate any guidance I can get.




I bit the bullet.

The issue is discussed at some length here, especially over the last month or so. Probably best for you to read through the last 20 or so pages of this thread.


----------



## pkcpga

msq123 said:


> I have recently bought AQ Dragonfly Red and looking to get an iPhone adapter to use with my iPhone/iPad.  I have read in few places that there are issues with popping sound when used with Apple USB 2.0 lightning adapter but neither Apple nor AQ is able to determine the cause but the issue is resolved with USB 3.0 lightning cable.  My issue is that I have got this DAC/AMP for portability and prefer the USB 2 with the sleek build rather than v3 which is more hefty with charging capability unless the issue is quite severe.  So my question is for existing users who have experienced the issue and if they think USB 3.0 will resolve it in which case I will just bite the bullet.
> 
> Apologies if this has been asked before, I appreciate any guidance I can get.




V3 solved the issue on my wife's iPhone 6 but not on my iPhone 7plus, so again I think it depends on the phone and which software update you have.


----------



## msq123

Thanks.  
  
 After going through the posts here and also reading feedbacks elsewhere, I have gone with the Apple Lightning to USB Camera Adapter (older compact version).  I understand that the issue is not universal so I will try and see how it goes for me.  I have until 8th Jan to return so plenty of time to determine if I have the same popping sound people are complaining about and then could always return it for the USB 3.0.  Fingers crossed


----------



## msq123

Quote:


msq123 said:


> Thanks.
> 
> After going through the posts here and also reading feedbacks elsewhere, I have gone with the Apple Lightning to USB Camera Adapter (older compact version).  I understand that the issue is not universal so I will try and see how it goes for me.  I have until 8th Jan to return so plenty of time to determine if I have the same popping sound people are complaining about and then could always return it for the USB 3.0.  Fingers crossed


----------



## msq123

pkcpga said:


> V3 solved the issue on my wife's iPhone 6 but not on my iPhone 7plus, so again I think it depends on the phone and which software update you have.


 
  So you are saying you are still having issues on your iPhone 7 with USB 3.0.   I have 6S and my wife has got 7 plus so will be interesting to see how it goes of me.  This is quite frustrating, DFR seems such an elegant solution but if it has compatibility issues then defeats the portability factor.  I can buy better and cheaper alternative if I am only looking to use it as a desktop solution.


----------



## msq123

slaphead said:


> I've just checked something, and it would appear to answer this iPhone 7 and Dragonfly issue.
> 
> It's not the Dragonfly that's not compatible with the iPhone 7, it's the original CCK that's not compatible.
> 
> ...


 

 Interestingly, Apple UK website has got iPhone 7 (and Plus) in compatible device list for the original lightning to USB adapter -
  
  
 http://www.apple.com/uk/shop/product/MD821ZM/A/lightning-to-usb-camera-adapter?fnode=49f074d2a0f9dc1282a44b1b553167448dbfa4249f5b705d351944a91c709372b6da2c3ce605872257820b67accc3b32c80390657fb7e030c3c54e8849127f8bd748c187373d3f9a4d369810c7d3193b55d96caba3cea1a8432c6e57cb02f728


----------



## pkcpga

msq123 said:


> Interestingly, Apple UK website has got iPhone 7 (and Plus) in compatible device list for the original lightning to USB adapter -
> 
> 
> http://www.apple.com/uk/shop/product/MD821ZM/A/lightning-to-usb-camera-adapter?fnode=49f074d2a0f9dc1282a44b1b553167448dbfa4249f5b705d351944a91c709372b6da2c3ce605872257820b67accc3b32c80390657fb7e030c3c54e8849127f8bd748c187373d3f9a4d369810c7d3193b55d96caba3cea1a8432c6e57cb02f728




I have tried both cck cables with the iPhone 7 plus and both produced a popping sound while my wife's 6 has no popping sound with the dfr and cck. The 7plus has no noise with the original cck or version 3 and the mojo, so this leads me to believe capability issues until an update happens. But it seems like AQ made promises of updates they decided to never follow through on.


----------



## hornytoad

I had two of the cck's and both had crackling pops with my iPhone 6 Plus and 10.0 .

I bought the newer CCK with the power port and I have not had a single pop or crackle ever .


----------



## CalvinW

I had buzzes and crackles on my iPhone 7 using either adaptors. I contacted AudioQuest and they couldn't offer me a solution and just ended up blaming my phone. It's funny since I actually exchanged my phone from jet black to the matte black, and it crackles on both phones nonetheless. I'd only purchased the DFR because of how small it was for mobile use. Why would I use it for my desktop setup when I can use my yggdrasil or mojo.


----------



## jegnyc

Well, it certainly sounds as if the problem was exacerbated with the introduction of the iPhone 7/7+.
  
 A couple of questions to clarify the status of the issue:  In the form of a scorecard.
  
 Has anyone gotten an iPhone 7/7+ to work properly with the DFR or the DFB either using the original CCK or the USB3 CCK? So, basically 4 scenarios:
  
 DFR/CCK
 DFB/CCK
 DFR/USB3 CCK
 DFB/USB3 CCK
  
 I suppose we could further subdivide between 7 and 7+, but that does not seem to be a distinguishing factor.


----------



## hornytoad

calvinw said:


> I had buzzes and crackles on my iPhone 7 using either adaptors. I contacted AudioQuest and they couldn't offer me a solution and just ended up blaming my phone. It's funny since I actually exchanged my phone from jet black to the matte black, and it crackles on both phones nonetheless. I'd only purchased the DFR because of how small it was for mobile use. Why would I use it for my desktop setup when I can use my yggdrasil or mojo.


 
 There is clearly a software issue that Audioquest needs to figure out. 
  
 I have a mojo and it is dead silent no crackles. 
  
 I'm sure Audioquest can figure this issue out and come up with a software update. Right?


----------



## bflat

jegnyc said:


> Well, it certainly sounds as if the problem was exacerbated with the introduction of the iPhone 7/7+.
> 
> A couple of questions to clarify the status of the issue:  In the form of a scorecard.
> 
> ...


 

 I have an iPhone 7 and both 2.0 and 3.0 versions work fine with my DFR. Maybe carrier makes a difference? I'm on TMobile. I did get static audio once with the 3.0, but I just unplugged/plugged and that cleared it up. I do make it a point to only plug in when my phone is fully awake with the screen on. Apps I've used are Apple Music, iAudioGate, and Onkyo HF. Files range from AAC to ALAC up to 96 Khz sample rate.


----------



## msq123

jegnyc said:


> Well, it certainly sounds as if the problem was exacerbated with the introduction of the iPhone 7/7+.
> 
> A couple of questions to clarify the status of the issue:  In the form of a scorecard.
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 I bought CCK today and tried it with DFR on my 6s running iOS 10.1.1 and also on my wife's 7 Plus (running the same iOS) and haven't had any crackling sounds/pops.  As per AQ's website this happens in few rare cases and not all users are affected.  Not sure if it is hardware issue or a software issue and whether the blame lies with Apple or AQ.
  
 Worth looking at iOS version people are running experiencing the issue.  Is it resolved in the last update??


----------



## jegnyc

msq123 said:


> I bought CCK today and tried it with DFR on my 6s running iOS 10.1.1 and also on my wife's 7 Plus (running the same iOS) and haven't had any crackling sounds/pops.  As per AQ's website this happens in few rare cases and not all users are affected.  Not sure if it is hardware issue or a software issue and whether the blame lies with Apple or AQ.
> 
> Worth looking at iOS version people are running experiencing the issue. * Is it resolved in the last update??*


 
 Not with my 6s.


----------



## msq123

jegnyc said:


> Not with my 6s.


 

 Out of curiosity, how frequent you hear these pops and are these at regular intervals?  Loud and audible or just a nuisance in the background?


----------



## jegnyc

msq123 said:


> Out of curiosity, how frequent you hear these pops and are these at regular intervals?  Loud and audible or just a nuisance in the background?


 
 It depended.  Although I heard them from all of the musical sources I had on my phone, streaming from my Squeezebox server to the iPeng app seemed worst.  iTunes (non-streaming) had the least. Tidal hi-fi was in-between.  And they were quite audible - the Squeezebox was unlistenable, and the others were more than just a nuisance.  (On some occasions iTunes seemed tolerable.)  They were not at regular intervals and they didn't sound identical, but from the Squeezebox I would expect to hear a number of clicks every minute.
  
 Edit - all of the above with the original CCK.  And in fact I had the problem when I tested it once with the old 30 pin CCK and an adapter.


----------



## Ocelot 80

Guys,I'm using UAPP but the ui is just terrible. Tried hiby music wich is free but I get clicking with my DFB. I hear the onkyo hf player is another alternative, anyone tried it?


----------



## Pastapipo

ocelot 80 said:


> Guys,I'm using UAPP but the ui is just terrible. Tried hiby music wich is free but I get clicking with my DFB. I hear the onkyo hf player is another alternative, anyone tried it?




You can try the demo for free. I found the interface of the onkyo HF likewise lacking. I'm back to poweramp alpha, which does work, but has some troubles adjusting to the correct bitrate. The dfb led light is always magneta.


----------



## Ocelot 80

pastapipo said:


> You can try the demo for free. I found the interface of the onkyo HF likewise lacking. I'm back to poweramp alpha, which does work, but has some troubles adjusting to the correct bitrate. The dfb led light is always magneta.


 
  didnt knew poweramp supported usb dac. gonna try it. thanks.


----------



## YamaVega

guys, has anyone tried to connect dragonfly to USB hub? My phone storage is too small, and was hoping to OTG both flash drive and DAC via hub. would that work?


----------



## Ocelot 80

tired of wating for the volume fix from audioquest. i have a rooted device and saw in this thread that there is a way to fix this with a some work. can anyone help me or has a tutorial?


----------



## pkcpga

ocelot 80 said:


> tired of wating for the volume fix from audioquest. i have a rooted device and saw in this thread that there is a way to fix this with a some work. can anyone help me or has a tutorial?




It seems like AQ has given up on the DF's and coming out with fixes or updates for them, they promised an update months ago and when you contact them they have no answer or care to help with DF issues now.


----------



## CalvinW

They will probably announce a new DF with all the fixes, instead of just giving it to us for free as an update. 
 I gave up on the company already.


----------



## west0ne

ocelot 80 said:


> tired of wating for the volume fix from audioquest. i have a rooted device and saw in this thread that there is a way to fix this with a some work. can anyone help me or has a tutorial?


 
 If you have a look back through some of my posts there are instructions on how to change the volume using commandline in a terminal session.


----------



## west0ne

calvinw said:


> They will probably announce a new DF with all the fixes, instead of just giving it to us for free as an update.
> I gave up on the company already.


 
 I'm not convinced there is a real fix for the DF and Android simply because of the way Android interacts with USB audio devices. Even is AQ do release a new device if it has the same internal volume control process it will most likely have the same issues when used with Android.


----------



## Devodonaldson

ocelot 80 said:


> tired of wating for the volume fix from audioquest. i have a rooted device and saw in this thread that there is a way to fix this with a some work. can anyone help me or has a tutorial?


 it's actually really easy. Plug dac in, Download alsamixer from the play Store. Open, accept when it asks for root privileges. Change dac volume output level. First turn media volume to low. Set dac volume around 55 for over ear cans. Then you can adjust media volume during playback.


----------



## Ocelot 80

devodonaldson said:


> it's actually really easy. Plug dac in, Download alsamixer from the play Store. Open, accept when it asks for root privileges. Change dac volume output level. First turn media volume to low. Set dac volume around 55 for over ear cans. Then you can adjust media volume during playback.


 
  i downloaded alsamixer from playstore and give ti root acces but im a bit lost. how do i set the dac volume?  is something more i have to do in the alsamixer app?


----------



## Devodonaldson

ocelot 80 said:


> i downloaded alsamixer from playstore and give ti root acces but im a bit lost. how do i set the dac volume?  is something more i have to do in the alsamixer app?


 plug in dac. Open alsamixer. Menu, settings, mode, select alsa mixer controls, NOT Scontrols. Go back to MS in page of alsamixer. Pull down to refresh. You will most likely have 3 choices. You want pcm playback volume. There you will enter a numerical value. The dac has 64 volume steps. If when you refresh you don't see just 3 options, keep dac plugged in, and restart phone. After boot go back to alsamixer app


----------



## west0ne

ocelot 80 said:


> i downloaded alsamixer from playstore and give ti root acces but im a bit lost. how do i set the dac volume?  is something more i have to do in the alsamixer app?


 

 ​I've never been able to get the AlsaMixer app to actually see the external DAC (only internal), but you do need either AlsaMixer or BusyBox (I think) to give you the Alsa controls.
  
 Plug in your DAC after boot up. Open a terminal window the do the following

  


> su
> alsa_amixer -c1 set PCM xx


 
  
 Where 'xx' is the volume between 1 & 64 for the DFB, you can also enter this as a percentage if you prefer.
  
 I personally prefer to set the volume on the phone the 100% as the volume control on Android is software, through experiment I know what hardware volume to set for each of my headphones. I use an app called "$cripter" that allows you to create the above command for each of your headphones with the correct volume level set.


----------



## CalvinW

Can someone test if the new iOS 10.2 update on iPhone 7 alleviates the problem with the original CCK?


----------



## msq123

calvinw said:


> Can someone test if the new iOS 10.2 update on iPhone 7 alleviates the problem with the original CCK?




Installing on my 6S and my wife's 7 plus. Will post my findings later tonight. Just to clarify, I never had any issues with either of the phones using DFR with iOS 10.1.1


----------



## jegnyc

Just installed 10.2 on my iPhone 6s and - the clicks are GONE!  Tested both my DFB and DFR for about 90 seconds each streaming from my Squeezebox server.  In the past I would invariably hear them within 30 seconds.  This time nada.


----------



## CalvinW

jegnyc said:


> Just installed 10.2 on my iPhone 6s and - the clicks are GONE!  Tested both my DFB and DFR for about 90 seconds each streaming from my Squeezebox server.  In the past I would invariably hear them within 30 seconds.  This time nada.


 
  
 Looking good, are you using the original CCK?


----------



## jegnyc

For the test, yes.


----------



## pfurey89

Got the Black a few days ago and pairs nicely with my SE846, very little audible noise, and they're really sensitive. Going to A/B test w/ my new Mojo which is on it's way to see if the hype is real.


----------



## stuck limo

pkcpga said:


> It seems like AQ has given up on the DF's and coming out with fixes or updates for them, they promised an update months ago and when you contact them they have no answer or care to help with DF issues now.


 
  


calvinw said:


> They will probably announce a new DF with all the fixes, instead of just giving it to us for free as an update.
> I gave up on the company already.


 
  
 I third this. I read they had update fixes ready to go for Android systems, but nothing ever came out. My prediction is same as above.


----------



## CalvinW

Yeah, with a company like AudioQuest, you only get to hear about it. Nothing will actually materialize. 
 I'm in a pretty crappy position since the DF doesn't work with my iPhone nor my android phone.


----------



## Topspin70

Sorry, my questions answered in earlier posts.


----------



## hornytoad

Considering Apple has determined that at least 90% of their supposed accessories(including cck) at Amazon
 are fakes ,there are probably a lot of fakes everywhere.
  
 This is a big problem for those who have bought cck's at non Apple stores.


----------



## CalvinW

I bought mine from an apple store and it still buzzes. I tried exchanging both my phone and the CCK. Another poster above bought a fake one and it worked great, so I bought one from eBay to try it out. Hope it arrives soon and I will keep you guys informed.


----------



## jegnyc

Following up - I just listened to my 6s/iOS 10.2/non-USB3 CCK/DFB for over 5 minutes.  Source was WiFi streaming Apple Lossless from the Logitech Music Server to the iPeng app.  In the past I would have generally heard a dozen individual clicks (often in small groups) per minute.  This time I heard perhaps 2 clicks in 5 minutes, and given the number of components in this chain (or maybe even external noise), I don't necessarily attribute them to the same issue.
  
 Has anyone else tried?


----------



## wwyjoe

Apologies if this is a noob question or asked before - The Dragonfly Red's processing capabilities is 24-bit/ 96 KHz. Does this mean that to fully maximize the DFR's capabilities, I should use music files of resolution up to 24-bit/ 96 KHz? Any higher resolution (i.e. 24-bit/ 192Khz) will not result in any sound improvement since the music file will be downsampled  to 24-bit/ 96 KHz (and possibly there may also be loss in sound quality during the downsampling process?)


----------



## Citizen13469

Hi, long story but I received email today from a seller I'm buying a Mojo from and he mentioned that he has NEW reds coming in next week that AQ says fix the Android problem but the fix must be done on each Red individually (if you already have one). He also mentioned that if you bought from an authorized dealer after Thanksgiving that you may be able to get it "fixed" from AQ, not sure if this means replacement or something else. Take this info with a grain of salt as I got the info from dealer second hand and often dealers are given misinformation from the manufacturers themselves but thought I'd post this out here in case anyone has heard about this as well?
  
 I hope I'm not starting rumors...truthfully looking for confirmation from another source. I'll probably buy one of the new batch from dealer next week and see if it works properly with Android.


----------



## bflat

wwyjoe said:


> Apologies if this is a noob question or asked before - The Dragonfly Red's processing capabilities is 24-bit/ 96 KHz. Does this mean that to fully maximize the DFR's capabilities, I should use music files of resolution up to 24-bit/ 96 KHz? Any higher resolution (i.e. 24-bit/ 192Khz) will not result in any sound improvement since the music file will be downsampled  to 24-bit/ 96 KHz (and possibly there may also be loss in sound quality during the downsampling process?)


 

 You will have to ask AQ that question for a definitive answer. It depends on how they down sample, but most likely there is no benefit of running 192 kHz files through DFR, but there is no problem with doing so either. That is assuming the tracks in question are from the same master. If your 192 kHz tracks have crap mastering, it's going to sound like crap no matter how you play it back.


----------



## west0ne

citizen13469 said:


> Hi, long story but I received email today from a seller I'm buying a Mojo from and he mentioned that he has NEW reds coming in next week that AQ says fix the Android problem but the fix must be done on each Red individually (if you already have one). He also mentioned that if you bought from an authorized dealer after Thanksgiving that you may be able to get it "fixed" from AQ, not sure if this means replacement or something else. Take this info with a grain of salt as I got the info from dealer second hand and often dealers are given misinformation from the manufacturers themselves but thought I'd post this out here in case anyone has heard about this as well?
> 
> I hope I'm not starting rumors...truthfully looking for confirmation from another source. I'll probably buy one of the new batch from dealer next week and see if it works properly with Android.




If this is true it will be interesting to find out what AQ have done, it could also prove damaging to AQs reputation if they can't do this through a firmware update considering the noise they made about the DF having upgradeable firmware.

There is still a good chance it will be a pseudo fix in that they have set the internal volume to 100% leaving volume control to the Android software.


----------



## CalvinW

west0ne said:


> If this is true it will be interesting to find out what AQ have done, it could also prove damaging to AQs reputation if they can't do this through a firmware update considering the noise they made about the DF having upgradeable firmware.
> 
> There is still a good chance it will be a pseudo fix in that they have set the internal volume to 100% leaving volume control to the Android software.




Haha, AudioQuest doesn't have a good reputation to begin with.


----------



## stuck limo

citizen13469 said:


> Hi, long story but I received email today from a seller I'm buying a Mojo from and he mentioned that he has NEW reds coming in next week that AQ says fix the Android problem but the fix must be done on each Red individually (if you already have one). He also mentioned that if you bought from an authorized dealer after Thanksgiving that you may be able to get it "fixed" from AQ, not sure if this means replacement or something else. Take this info with a grain of salt as I got the info from dealer second hand and often dealers are given misinformation from the manufacturers themselves but thought I'd post this out here in case anyone has heard about this as well?
> 
> I hope I'm not starting rumors...truthfully looking for confirmation from another source. I'll probably buy one of the new batch from dealer next week and see if it works properly with Android.


 
  
 So, what, like you'd have to send it in to AQ to get it fixed? Instead of just downloading a firmware update?
  
 When/if you do get the update, let us know the packaging numbers so we can determine if we're buying the "new" ones or not. (I don't own one yet but sort of want to)


----------



## Macduff

Enjoying my new DFB. Using it with a 2015 MBP and bose qc-25. I used and enjoyed a Fulla 1 about 6 months ago. I can't do a side by side comparison, but the DFB and Fulla 1 are both great, both demonstrating a significan't improvement upon my laptop's sound even through the bose (sound is better with active noise cancellation on the headphones engaged). All types of files up to 24/96 show improvement.


----------



## Rdwng1975

Does anyone know if I connect a dragonfly red or black to my iPhone if I will get 64 volume steps? Or do I just get the iPhones limited volume steps?


----------



## CalvinW

rdwng1975 said:


> Does anyone know if I connect a dragonfly red or black to my iPhone if I will get 64 volume steps? Or do I just get the iPhones limited volume steps?


 
 You just get the iPhone's volume steps.


----------



## gdpeck

rdwng1975 said:


> Does anyone know if I connect a dragonfly red or black to my iPhone if I will get 64 volume steps? Or do I just get the iPhones limited volume steps?


 
 You can actually get a little bit more granular control if you use the volume slider on the control center as shown here:

  
 I have a DFB and the built-in steps using the volume buttons are pretty big jumps. I mostly listen with pretty efficient headphones though such as NAD Viso HP 50 or vmoda XS.


----------



## CalvinW

gdpeck said:


> You can actually get a little bit more granular control if you use the volume slider on the control center as shown here:
> 
> 
> I have a DFB and the built-in steps using the volume buttons are pretty big jumps. I mostly listen with pretty efficient headphones though such as NAD Viso HP 50 or vmoda XS.


 
  
 This is useful when you don't have Parkinson's disease. When I use it, it just goes all over the place. Wish they offered smaller increments when using the buttons.


----------



## Rdwng1975

gdpeck said:


> You can actually get a little bit more granular control if you use the volume slider on the control center as shown here:
> 
> 
> 
> I have a DFB and the built-in steps using the volume buttons are pretty big jumps. I mostly listen with pretty efficient headphones though such as NAD Viso HP 50 or vmoda XS.




Do you know if resolution is lost using this control method?


----------



## Ocelot 80

So... I ordered by mistake (don't ask why) a magni 2 amp by shiit. Anyone knows if pairs good with the DFB? Should I be worried about double amping?


----------



## gdpeck

rdwng1975 said:


> Do you know if resolution is lost using this control method?


 
 I have no idea.


----------



## Rdwng1975

gdpeck said:


> You can actually get a little bit more granular control if you use the volume slider on the control center as shown here:
> 
> 
> 
> I have a DFB and the built-in steps using the volume buttons are pretty big jumps. I mostly listen with pretty efficient headphones though such as NAD Viso HP 50 or vmoda XS.




How is the DFB's sound with the HP50 vs the iPhone headphone jack?


----------



## CalvinW

rdwng1975 said:


> How is the DFB's sound with the HP50 vs the iPhone headphone jack?




The iPhone headphone jack sounds great, and the DF buzzes and crackles like a Mofo. Surprisingly, the iPhone 7 headphone dongle actually sounds better than the built in jack on the iPhone 6. FYI, I have the HP30


----------



## gdpeck

rdwng1975 said:


> How is the DFB's sound with the HP50 vs the iPhone headphone jack?


 
 I honestly haven't done much a/b 'ing with the DFB. I have had it since April 2016, and have mostly just enjoyed it without comparing much. My sense was that everything sounded generally better and more musical. Just now I did some quick a/b test of a couple of songs. These are both streamed in FLAC from Logitech Media Server via iPeng 9. I tried to match the levels by ear. Nothing scientific.
 -No Excuses by Alice in Chains with the DFB more separation between the harmony and lead vocals. cymbals sound more real, and there is more space for all instruments. Seems more like music than a bunch of sounds mashed together. Frequency response isn't much different. Everything just seems to fit together more cohesively, and the song is more involving. 
 -I Try by Macy Gray. More of the same. Rythym section is driving the song. Electric bass sounds more musical. It's easier to notice details like the organ in second verse. Vocals are more lifelike.
  
 HP50 through the headphone jack sounds nice, and if I never heard the DFB, I would be very satisfied with it. But music is just better with the DFB. I hope this helps.
  
 Edit: Forgot to mention that I used the iPhone 6s with the original slim CCK. I have both the slim and USB 3 CCKs, and have never heard a crackle from either one. I also have two DFBs because one was lost under the seat of my car for a while, and neither of them crackle.


----------



## Rdwng1975

calvinw said:


> The iPhone headphone jack sounds great, and the DF buzzes and crackles like a Mofo. Surprisingly, the iPhone 7 headphone dongle actually sounds better than the built in jack on the iPhone 6. FYI, I have the HP30




Are you using the newer cck that is supposed to fix that noise?


----------



## Rdwng1975

gdpeck said:


> I honestly haven't done much a/b 'ing with the DFB. I have had it since April 2016, and have mostly just enjoyed it without comparing much. My sense was that everything sounded generally better and more musical. Just now I did some quick a/b test of a couple of songs. These are both streamed in FLAC from Logitech Media Server via iPeng 9. I tried to match the levels by ear. Nothing scientific.
> -No Excuses by Alice in Chains with the DFB more separation between the harmony and lead vocals. cymbals sound more real, and there is more space for all instruments. Seems more like music than a bunch of sounds mashed together. Frequency response isn't much different. Everything just seems to fit together more cohesively, and the song is more involving.
> -I Try by Macy Gray. More of the same. Rythym section is driving the song. Electric bass sounds more musical. It's easier to notice details like the organ in second verse. Vocals are more lifelike.
> 
> ...




It does. Thank You!


----------



## jegnyc

calvinw said:


> The iPhone headphone jack sounds great, and the DF buzzes and crackles like a Mofo. Surprisingly, the iPhone 7 headphone dongle actually sounds better than the built in jack on the iPhone 6. FYI, I have the HP30


 
 Did you install iOS 10.2?  After I did, the crackling on my 6s was gone (using the old CCK).
  
 I can't swear it was cause and effect - but it certainly happened.


----------



## catroni

Newb question:
  
 - is the SQ better from the iphone 6s AUX compared to the iphone 7 lightning?
  
 Thanks in advance.


----------



## Aeromarine

going to get DF (red) in the new year!!  along with Fortex HP-A4BL and TR90.. can't wait..


----------



## x25cd

Hello everyone, I'm new here. I've search around in the forum but could not find an answer. 
  
 I'm using Shure SE215 with the Dragonfly Black on my laptop allmost all day at work (more or less quiet environment) and the volume is way too high in normal conditions. I have to put the windows volume at 2% and reduce the volume in applications (mostly itunes, soundcloud and spotify) to around 5%. 
  
 Does anyone else face the same issue and is it normal ? 
  
 Thanks


----------



## zerolight

x25cd said:


> Hello everyone, I'm new here. I've search around in the forum but could not find an answer.
> 
> I'm using Shure SE215 with the Dragonfly Black on my laptop allmost all day at work (more or less quiet environment) and the volume is way too high in normal conditions. I have to put the windows volume at 2% and reduce the volume in applications (mostly itunes, soundcloud and spotify) to around 5%.
> 
> ...


 
 I don't have my Red yet, but when I had a DB v1.2 a while back with a set of Grado RS1i, I found that too - way too loud for sensitive headphones. I'm hoping the DFR is a bit quieter, or has a bit more control.


----------



## CalvinW

It's the same for my DFR and Angie. Getting an impedance adaptor alleviates this.


----------



## psikey

Had same issue plus the problem with Android volume. After months with no update I've sent mine back to shop and exchanged for a Chord Mojo stating not fit for purpose.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


----------



## drummguy26

calvinw said:


> The iPhone headphone jack sounds great, and the DF buzzes and crackles like a Mofo. Surprisingly, the iPhone 7 headphone dongle actually sounds better than the built in jack on the iPhone 6. FYI, I have the HP30


 

 Funny that you mention that about the iPhone 7 headphone dongle. I actually prefer the sound coming straight out of my iPhone 7 compared to the DFB/DFR for my IEM's. I know Im gonna get a lot of crap about that statement, but TBH, I don't have full sized cans to take full advantage of the DFB/DFR. So I don't know if its just an IEM thing, but Ive heard that IEM's in general don't benefit much from the dragonfly's.


----------



## cribeiro

I just got an interesting information in another thread which I think it is worth to share here. It offers much more convenience, hopefully it gets close to the Red and works as promised:
  
 https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/capri-audiophile-digital-earphone-with-hi-res-dac--2#/
  
 I just told them they need a version with a 3.5mm jack  And Android support, of course.


----------



## DLR Group

I believe you will enjoy as I owned one myself.  The DAC works well and plenty of power in the amp section.  I returned mine not for the sound, but having to use the lightning to usb dongle constantly lost signal on my I phone 6.  I ended up with the Oppo HA-2A SE for my portable rig.


----------



## hornytoad

Apple needs to allow Audioquest to make a connection cable that will work with the iPhone and the Dragonfly but they won't . 
Instead we are left with the lousy camera connection kit .


----------



## zerolight

Of course they'd allow that. That's what the mfi programme is all about. You can buy all sorts of cables and headphones made with lighting cables.


----------



## jegnyc

hornytoad said:


> Apple needs to allow Audioquest to make a connection cable that will work with the iPhone and the Dragonfly but they won't .
> Instead we are left with the lousy camera connection kit .




I'll ask you the same question I've posted several times. Did you try upgrading to iOS 10.2? My clicking problem *vanished*. I thought it would be more useful if people on this thread suffering the same problem could see if my experience was happenstance or a real solution, rather than simply continuing to complain. So far, unless I missed a post, nobody has reported one way or the other.


----------



## hornytoad

According to someone at Audioquest it is more than becoming mifi certified. Apple would have to provide some type of chip
 which would unlock the digital signal of the iphone and they will not be doing this.


----------



## bflat

hornytoad said:


> According to someone at Audioquest it is more than becoming mifi certified. Apple would have to provide some type of chip
> which would unlock the digital signal of the iphone and they will not be doing this.


 

 MFi certification does and requires the following:
  

License fee to Apple
Apple provides the decryption chip (Lightning is basically an encrypted USB port)
Apple tests your device to make sure it conforms with their power and data specs
Apple reviews and approves your packaging
Apple may feature your product in their stores if it doesn't compete with their products
Apple provides all the technical resources you need as long as you are certified
  
 All of the above adds cost to AudioQuest so I can't blame them if they decided not to do it. However, Audeze decided to go the MFi route with their cipher cable and they seem to be having a lot of success. The cipher cable sells for $100 and only works on their EL-8 and Sine headphones, but that is Audeze's choice not Apple.
  
 If AQ were to go with MFi, I would advise them to just make an all-in-one device and not just a cable adapter. If they can shrink the size and just have a lightning cable attached that would be more appealing to Apple users. Even though the DFR and CCK 2.0 is a lot smaller than full size portable DAC, it still is not small and requires careful place in my pocket. The cipher cable on my Sine is really plug and play and feels like a simple cable.


----------



## Slaphead

hornytoad said:


> According to someone at Audioquest it is more than becoming mifi certified. Apple would have to provide some type of chip
> which would unlock the digital signal of the iphone and they will not be doing this.




That is indeed correct, at least for anything that is MFi certified to use the Lightning port.

The MFi manufacturer needs integrate that chip function into the design, and then needs to buy those chips in, which are, from what I'm told, almost permanantly in constraint, which leads to massive delays in releasing the product, and also limits availability of the product.

Weirdly it seems that if you give Apple an exclusive on your product, the supply constraint for these chips magically eases up enough so that Apple can get all the product it wants. Funny that, isn't it.


----------



## Herman

I have a Dragonfly Red since last week and experience the clicking sound although my iphone 6s is on ios 10.2. But not all the time. StrNgely enough i do not have the problem when i connect the dragonfly and camera kit to my ipad mini 2. Maybe it has to do with cellular? Use it to stream Qobuz and the problem seems less with songs that are not very dynamic ?


----------



## bflat

slaphead said:


> The MFi manufacturer needs integrate that chip function into the design, and then needs to buy those chips in, which are, from what I'm told, almost permanantly in constraint, which leads to massive delays in releasing the product, and also limits availability of the product.
> 
> Weirdly it seems that if you give Apple an exclusive on your product, the supply constraint for these chips magically eases up enough so that Apple can get all the product it wants. Funny that, isn't it.


 
  
 That is purely speculation and opinion. Apple keeps very tight control of their chip distribution so excess chips don't end up on secondary markets. Since you pay Apple a royalty for each of your MFi devices, they have a pretty good idea what your capacity is. If you all of a sudden ask for 10x more chips than your run rate, expect Apple to ask a lot of questions. All chip makers do this. Fact is that some Apple Mfi chips do end up in unauthorized manufacturers which is how working non-MFi certified accessories end up on Amazon.


----------



## jegnyc

herman said:


> I have a Dragonfly Red since last week and experience the clicking sound although my iphone 6s is on ios 10.2. But not all the time. StrNgely enough i do not have the problem when i connect the dragonfly and camera kit to my ipad mini 2. Maybe it has to do with cellular? Use it to stream Qobuz and the problem seems less with songs that are not very dynamic ?


 
 Sorry to hear that.  As for the iPad mini, I have four iDevices, but have never had the problem on 3 of the 4.  It seems to affect only some iDevices, and it seems pretty random, although my sense from this thread is that it affects a larger percentage of  iPhone 7's.
  
 Cellular doesn't seem relevant.  I tried mine in the past in airplane mode with Bluetooth turned off, and the problem was still there.
  
 Just tested my 6s again with my DFR.  This time I tried iTunes (256 kbps music stored on my iPhone), Tidal Hi-Fi and the Logitech Media Server/iPeng (CD Quality).  All with the older CCK.  During testing cellular and Bluetooth remained on.  I can still hear the odd click on all three - maybe once every 90 seconds.  This represents a 90%+ improvement over the problem I had before.  If it's not due to 10.2, I have no idea what caused this improvement.


----------



## LazerBear

Hey guys, I have a pair of K7XX arriving soon and was wondering if the DFB or DFR can drive them properly. I assume not, but it would be nice if anyone here owns both pieces of kit and can provide some input.
  
 If they indeed cannot, what do you think would be the best setup:
 1) DFB/DFR + Fiio A5. A little more than 300$ and gives me the flexibility of using only the Dragonfly with my IEM and then add the A5 only for the K7XX at home.
 2) Oppo HA-2SE. Around 300$, would be a catch-all solution but slightly larger for outdoor usage.


----------



## Devodonaldson

T





lazerbear said:


> Hey guys, I have a pair of K7XX arriving soon and was wondering if the DFB or DFR can drive them properly. I assume not, but it would be nice if anyone here owns both pieces of kit and can provide some input.
> 
> If they indeed cannot, what do you think would be the best setup:
> 1) DFB/DFR + Fiio A5. A little more than 300$ and gives me the flexibility of using only the Dragonfly with my IEM and then add the A5 only for the K7XX at home.
> 2) Oppo HA-2SE. Around 300$, would be a catch-all solution but slightly larger for outdoor usage.


he short answer to your question is yes the Red in fact can. I use the red with my Q701 and it sounds sublime to me. Love the wide open Soundstage


----------



## SpiderNhan

lazerbear said:


> Hey guys, I have a pair of K7XX arriving soon and was wondering if the DFB or DFR can drive them properly. I assume not, but it would be nice if anyone here owns both pieces of kit and can provide some input.
> 
> If they indeed cannot, what do you think would be the best setup:
> 1) DFB/DFR + Fiio A5. A little more than 300$ and gives me the flexibility of using only the Dragonfly with my IEM and then add the A5 only for the K7XX at home.
> 2) Oppo HA-2SE. Around 300$, would be a catch-all solution but slightly larger for outdoor usage.


 
 Like @Devodonaldson I also use my Red with the Q701. It drives them without breaking a sweat.


----------



## DLR Group

I agree the black will do the trick. I've had both. Not sure of your highest ohm on a few of these cans, I'm not sure about, but the Red DF drove my HD 650's almost without an issue even at 300 ohms. But as you know, more power does not suck like less power. DAC wise, on a USB stick DAC, I could not tell the difference between the two, only in the incremental difference in voltage and raw volume power.
I sold one and purchased the HA-2 SE. To me personally, I like the fact whether using it as my PC sound card, my iPhone or iPad's sound card, it is just so much easier to set all hardware to max volume, and then use the Oppo to incrementally adjust volumes with the potentiometer. I feel I am in better control doing it that way versus a USB stick that I cannot put my fingers into. Just a personal preference of mine as I feel better doing it that way.


----------



## motif2013

Stereophile's review of the Dragonflies noted that they both greatly improved the sound of a laptop or desktop but found only a slight improvement when connected to a phone or iPod. This could be a result of being powered by a computer power supply vs a battery sourced phone or iPod and iPad. Has anyone done the same comparison?


----------



## spanky310

Question:
  
 Does anyone use the Dragonfly red or black with a Sony NW-.A30 series player or know if they will work together?
  
 I did a search of this thread but found no result on this question.
  
 Thanks!


----------



## cribeiro

motif2013 said:


> Stereophile's review of the Dragonflies noted that they both greatly improved the sound of a laptop or desktop but found only a slight improvement when connected to a phone or iPod. This could be a result of being powered by a computer power supply vs a battery sourced phone or iPod and iPad. Has anyone done the same comparison?


 
 I tried my Sennheiser HD650 with the DFR and my HTC One M8 and the sound was disappointing, lacking power to drive the bass. Other members tried the DFR and Sennheiser HD650 using a laptop and the sound was great, with enough power for the bass.


----------



## heswes

nevermind.


----------



## malcbo

motif2013 said:


> Stereophile's review of the Dragonflies noted that they both greatly improved the sound of a laptop or desktop but found only a slight improvement when connected to a phone or iPod. This could be a result of being powered by a computer power supply vs a battery sourced phone or iPod and iPad. Has anyone done the same comparison?


 
  
 I have the DF Red and have tried it with a MacBook Air, Mac Pro, iPad Air and iPhone 7.
 To me it sounds equal on whatever of the above devices, I can never go full volume with my V-Moda M-100s as it is too loud.


----------



## motif2013

Thanks. That's good news. I wanted to eventually connect the DFR to either an IPOD Touch or IPAD Mini. 
  
 BTW does the IPAD function like an IPOD where you can connect it to iTunes on your Laptop and load songs and albums or does it run iTunes?


----------



## learpot

Hi, everyone, I recently bought a DFR and what I found is very interesting. [COLOR=111111]When you connect the original apple CCK and the new CCK 3.0 to DFR, the DFR sounds resolving but somewhat dry. However, when you connect apple CCK to a USB 3.0 hub powered by a portable battery, the sound is better with higher volume and much sweeter. I guess this means that, the DFR will benefit from external voltage and current in addition to iphone's own limited power output from the lightening port. That probably explain that DFR generally sounds better when connecting to computer because the advantage of drawing current from the computer's USB port. I am on iphone 6 plus with iOS 9.3.3 128GB jailbroken. I installed smallvolumestep plugin from cydia and am able to change the volume step from 16(default) to 64 and above. This will give you more precise volume adjustment for the DFR because the volume changes very dramatically when using the DFR. Overall, the sound from DFR is 20-30% better than the default iphone 6 plus' own dac. I am still waiting for the MOJO which will be arriving later today.[/COLOR]

Update: I just received the chord mojo. When playing with the chord mojo, the soundstage and the musical instrument separation is unbelievable!!! It can drive K701 and HD600 with unbelievable volumes. For classical music, DFR can drive the K701 maybe 60-70%. Chord mojo can drive these headphones 120%. The sound from the mojo is unforgettable. I am still in a little shock now because how good the mojo sounds. I would say the mojo improve the iphone 6 plus' default sound by 100%. Will have to return the DFR now.


----------



## LazerBear

cribeiro said:


> I tried my Sennheiser HD650 with the DFR and my HTC One M8 and the sound was disappointing, lacking power to drive the bass. Other members tried the DFR and Sennheiser HD650 using a laptop and the sound was great, with enough power for the bass.


 
  
 Well, the guys at Headfonia tried both Red and Black powered by a laptop with an HD650 and they said _"The Sennheiser HD650 with its 300Ohm impedance is a harder to drive headphone and while I still prefer to listen to the HD650 on tubes, especially the Red Dragonfly made it sound very engaging and musical. Volume wise you of course have to seriously turn it up but there is headroom left." _
  
 So I think there is not much doubt that, while plugged in a laptop, both Red and Black can drive the HD650 decently. Whereas, when plugged in a mobile device, it looks like it *might* have some power issues seeing as there are multiple people reporting it.


----------



## andiB

Hi everyone, after I have read here for a long time, I finally bought a DFR. I'm quite impressed. Sounds very good with my iPad mini (iOS 10.1.1, CCK 2.0), Tidal Hifi and Koss PP. Works so far without problems. For my ears it's an huge improvement over the HO of the iPad mini.


----------



## Rurouni

I have the DFR red and use it with a pair of IE800s connected to my phone. For me the DFR Red is a very content subjective device and whether you like it, YMMV.
  
 For myself, I found generally a fair amount of reduction in delivery of lower range bass notes in most recordings, but a slighter more defined soundstage and tighter mid range. Again, could depend on what earphones/headphones you are using.
  
 Overall I found sticking to my phone and IE800 as is, more conducive to the music content I'm currently listening to (range of pop, jazz, r&b and modern folk).
  
 I'm hoping that in future, the DFRs's DACs can be upgraded via software to suit varied tastes of consumers.


----------



## weissglut

Hi, I'm looking for a DAC that I can use with an iPad. It should be used together with Fostex T50RP MK3 phones, which are really hard to drive (even harder than my 300 Ohm phones). Might the Dragonfly Red be an option for high volumes?
  
 Note: I'm using files with ReplayGain, which are about 6 dB lower volume than usual.


----------



## bflat

weissglut said:


> Hi, I'm looking for a DAC that I can use with an iPad. It should be used together with Fostex T50RP MK3 phones, which are really hard to drive (even harder than my 300 Ohm phones). Might the Dragonfly Red be an option for high volumes?
> 
> Note: I'm using files with ReplayGain, which are about 6 dB lower volume than usual.


 

 For some reason, I find the DFR via iOS device plays back at 20-40% lower volume levels than from my Mac. Just looking at the specs, USB 2.0 provides up to 500 mA of current whereas lightning port is under 100 mA, probably closer to 50 mA. I don't own a pair of hard to drive headphones, but I think you are likely to be close to max volume on the DFR. You probably want to look at battery powered portable DACs that run on their own power.


----------



## DLR Group

I completely agree on the battery powered when using a iPhone or android. That is the reason I sold one of my dragonflies and went with the Oppo HA 2SE which powers my HD 650s and my new HD 700s without issue versus the dragonfly black. Even though the red may have a slight bit more power, the DAC and the amp combo in the Oppo is much better IMO.


----------



## coolcrew23

spanky310 said:


> Question:
> 
> Does anyone use the Dragonfly red or black with a Sony NW-.A30 series player or know if they will work together?
> 
> ...




I have the same query. Hope someone can answer.


----------



## motif2013

Love to hear from someone who has experience using DFR with an IPAD and large quality headphones (not IEM).
  
 Currently using DFR connected to my HP Laptop and driving Beyer DT880 600 ohm headphones and I have plenty of power. On the 64 step digital volume control I never get above 40 and most of the time at 34. Sounds great. Thinking of getting an IPAD Pro 9.7 and wanted to know what to expect from sound quality compared to laptop. Anyone who can help would be appreciated.
  
 Would prefer IPAD but would get a Macbook Air if there were sound differences.
  
 Thanks


----------



## learpot

There might be a possible solution to increase volume when using DFR on the go. Simply use a usb 2.0 or 3.0 hub to connect the Apple CCK cable, power the hub with an external battery and then connect the DFR to the hub. You will know DFR is drawing current from the battery because the dragonfly sign will light up even before you connect the hub to the Apple CCK. I tested the method that way, and it does increase the DFR's volume by 20% or so comparing direct connect between DFR and Apple CCK.


----------



## LazerBear

learpot said:


> There might be a possible solution to increase volume when using DFR on the go. Simply use a usb 2.0 or 3.0 hub to connect the Apple CCK cable, power the hub with an external battery and then connect the DFR to the hub. You will know DFR is drawing current from the battery because the dragonfly sign will light up even before you connect the hub to the Apple CCK. I tested the method that way, and it does increase the DFR's volume by 20% or so comparing direct connect between DFR and Apple CCK.


 
  
 Quite interesting.. do you perceive any change in sound quality this way?


----------



## LazerBear

learpot said:


> There might be a possible solution to increase volume when using DFR on the go. Simply use a usb 2.0 or 3.0 hub to connect the Apple CCK cable, power the hub with an external battery and then connect the DFR to the hub. You will know DFR is drawing current from the battery because the dragonfly sign will light up even before you connect the hub to the Apple CCK. I tested the method that way, and it does increase the DFR's volume by 20% or so comparing direct connect between DFR and Apple CCK.


 
  
 Quite interesting.. do you perceive any change in sound quality this way?


----------



## learpot

lazerbear said:


> Quite interesting.. do you perceive any change in sound quality this way?


 

 I believe the sound improvement is equal to computer powered DFR. IOS device is quite picky on current output. I use this method to connect my 3TB seagate external harddrive to my iphone 6 plus in order to transfer music and movies. It worked really well except you have to carry a portable battery.


----------



## Herman

Have been listening to music with DFR for about two weeks now. mainly with Shure SE215 while commuting and Fine Audio Heaven VI in the office. big improvement compared to Arcam Musicboost and (almost) on par with IBasso DX90. Big surprise yesterday when I used DFR with B&W P3. So far a bit of love and hate with P3. loved the design but sound quality wasn't really what I had hoped for. nothing special at least. DFR changed this completely. P3 sounds neutral, spacious, with crisp bass. that was probably what I had been missing. amazing what a little ' usb stick' can do!


----------



## motif2013

Anyone using the Dragonfly with a USB-C to USB cable on a MacBook Pro?

Any issues?


----------



## coolcrew23

I used it on my 2015 Macbook with a USB C to USB Adapter and it works fine.


----------



## coolcrew23

motif2013 said:


> Anyone using the Dragonfly with a USB-C to USB cable on a MacBook Pro?
> 
> Any issues?


----------



## motif2013

Thanks but I thought only the new 2016 Macbook Pros have USB-C


----------



## motif2013

Ha anyone had experience running Dragonfly (Red or Black) from an IPAD with either the CCK cable or the newer Lightning to USB 3 Cable? Any sound Quality Issues?


----------



## hornytoad

motif2013 said:


> Ha anyone had experience running Dragonfly (Red or Black) from an IPAD with either the CCK cable or the newer Lightning to USB 3 Cable? Any sound Quality Issues?


 
 I had problems with the original CCK . Clicks and pops galore with my Iphone 6 plus s. 
  
 I went to the newer CCK with the power port .Not only does it sound better than the original it has been completely  click and pop free and I use it 4-6 hours weekly.


----------



## buzzlulu

Dragonfly's seem to be out of stock in a few places. Are they reconfiguring them to fix the click and popping issues on the new IPhone 7's??

Have they public ally addressed this issue?


----------



## good sound

buzzlulu said:


> Dragonfly's seem to be out of stock in a few places. Are they reconfiguring them to fix the click and popping issues on the new IPhone 7's??
> 
> Have they public ally addressed this issue?




Yes, they do seem to be somewhat scarce on the new retail market. I sold mine recently and received a lot of responses to my ad.

As far as an update, who knows. Audioquest had a presence in this thread at the beginning but it's been pretty much radio silence on their part lately.


----------



## motif2013

I thought the Lightning to USB3 adaptor cable resolved the pop and click issue


----------



## motif2013

Just got my DFR last week from World Wide Stereo in the Philly Suburbs


----------



## willowbrook

I currently have chord mojo, planning to sell it off. Is the DragonFly Red a good choice if I'm looking for something smaller and cheaper. I don't want any batteries involved because I don't need them. I won't be carrying them around with my phone, will just use with my laptop at home. Is there any other devices like dragonfly red that are competitively priced? or any better models? Thanks.


----------



## motif2013

I can't compare it to the Mojo but I can tell you the Dragonfly Red is stunningly good. I am listening to my iTunes ALAC Albums with wonder. Everything sounds open, detailed, transparent with excellent instrument separation and a wonderful soundstage. Classical, Jazz, Pop all sound engaging. Some said it was bright. I found it to be very open and clear as if someone turned on the light in dim room. You hear exactly what's on the recording good and bad. It's worth every penny. I'm listening via a Beyer DT880 600 Ohm and the volume is never set higher than 40 on the 64 step control and usually it's at 34. You really need good full size headphones to realize what this DAC can deliver.


----------



## willowbrook

Dp


----------



## motif2013

It's a software volume control. The Dragonfly it's a DAC and amp.


----------



## LazerBear

The guys over at Computer Audiophile wrote quite a comprehensive article about Android and (Dragonfly, but also in general) DACs (http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/735-audiophile-switches-ios-android/) and here's one interesting tidbit:
  
_"I contacted AudioQuest, manufacturer of the DragonFly Red DAC. AudioQuest is mostly know as a cable company, but it also has extensive knowledge and contacts when it comes to USB DACs, software, and operating systems. I also contacted the designer of the DragonFly, Wavelength Audio's Gordon Rankin. Gordon is unofficially the godfather of USB audio. In my conversations with AudioQuest and Gordon, I learned quite a bit about how the DragonFly works and how Android works, or as I'll characterize it, doesn't work. Please keep in mind that all opinions about the workings of Android and the Google Pixel phone are mine only. AudioQuest and Gordon simply provided facts about the technologies. 

When a device, such as a USB DAC, is connected to any host, in this case a Google Pixel phone, a process called enumeration takes place between the host (Pixel) and peripheral (USB DAC). According to Google's own documentation, enumeration is, "The process of detecting which peripherals are connected to the bus, and querying their properties..." In layman's terms this is a conversation between the phone and DAC, that enables the phone to determine the capabilities of the DAC. A standard enumeration would identify for the host, what sample rates the DAC supports, its power requirements, and the DAC's default and maximum volume levels (if the DAC has volume control). 

Enumerating the volume level is where many Android phones don't follow the agreed upon standards. Keep in mind that some Android device manufacturers and third party app developers have solved this issue. Google, as the creator of the operating system, has elected to not solve the problem. In this specific case, when the DragonFly Red is connected to the Google Pixel phone, the DragonFly tells the Pixel that its default volume is 41. The DragonFly Red has a 64 step digital volume control that defaults to step 41, so as not to ruin ears or equipment when it's initially connected. In its infinite wisdom, Android reads this default volume setting as the DragonFly's maximum volume. Thus, there's no going over step 41 out of 64 when turning up the volume. 

Digging deeper into this issue, reveals a larger issue. When Android adjusts the volume of the DragonFly or any other USB DAC, it's doing so in software, not the DAC's built-in hardware volume control. You can see that the Pixel adjusts its volume from say 0% to 100%, but this is only working between step 0 and 41 in the DragonFly Red USB DC. First we have Android's inability to distinguish between a default volume and maximum volume upon enumeration, then we have Android's inability to operate a hardware volume control on a USB DAC. Both of these fairly simple and very standard items have been done for many years in OS X / macOS, Windows, Linux, and iOS. Android uses the extremely popular Advanced Linux Sound Architecture (ALSA) that is used by nearly every Linux-based audio device you and I have ever used. But, Google has elected to remove many capabilities in its version called tinyalsa. I can see sliming-down software to work on a phone, but stripping out what many consider essential was a frustrating move by Google."_
  
 The whole article is worth a read, although the writer seems to have missed out on the existence of Alsa Amixer. I sent them a PM with the details and am waiting feedback.


----------



## willowbrook

lazerbear said:


> The guys over at Computer Audiophile wrote quite a comprehensive article about Android and (Dragonfly, but also in general) DACs (http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/735-audiophile-switches-ios-android/) and here's one interesting tidbit:
> 
> _"I contacted AudioQuest, manufacturer of the DragonFly Red DAC. AudioQuest is mostly know as a cable company, but it also has extensive knowledge and contacts when it comes to USB DACs, software, and operating systems. I also contacted the designer of the DragonFly, Wavelength Audio's Gordon Rankin. Gordon is unofficially the godfather of USB audio. In my conversations with AudioQuest and Gordon, I learned quite a bit about how the DragonFly works and how Android works, or as I'll characterize it, doesn't work. Please keep in mind that all opinions about the workings of Android and the Google Pixel phone are mine only. AudioQuest and Gordon simply provided facts about the technologies.
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks for the read.


----------



## learpot

willowbrook said:


> I currently have chord mojo, planning to sell it off. Is the DragonFly Red a good choice if I'm looking for something smaller and cheaper. I don't want any batteries involved because I don't need them. I won't be carrying them around with my phone, will just use with my laptop at home. Is there any other devices like dragonfly red that are competitively priced? or any better models? Thanks.




Keep the mojo, because mojo is much better than dfr in both resolution and amping the sound. Hugo is better. DFR is not able to drive any of my HD600 and AKG701 with good volume when listening classical music. For dragonfly red, the old cck adapter may give pops and clicks, new usb 3.0 is too big in my opinion and it will be awkward to attach it to the back of the iphone.


----------



## andiB

motif2013 said:


> Ha anyone had experience running Dragonfly (Red or Black) from an IPAD with either the CCK cable or the newer Lightning to USB 3 Cable? Any sound Quality Issues?




I'm using the DFR with my iPad mini 2 running iOS 10.1.1 with the old CCK. This combo sounds fantastic to my ears without any sound quality issues.


----------



## willowbrook

learpot said:


> Keep the mojo, because mojo is much better than dfr in both resolution and amping the sound. Hugo is better. DFR is not able to drive any of my HD600 and AKG701 with good volume when listening classical music. For dragonfly red, the old cck adapter may give pops and clicks, new usb 3.0 is too big in my opinion and it will be awkward to attach it to the back of the iphone.


 
 Thinking of getting the new geekout v2a. There is no point for me to keep the mojo because I never carry it around, don't need the battery nor portability. Growing tired of the synergy with my flc8s too.


----------



## cribeiro

lazerbear said:


> The guys over at Computer Audiophile wrote quite a comprehensive article about Android and (Dragonfly, but also in general) DACs (http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/735-audiophile-switches-ios-android/) and here's one interesting tidbit:


 
 And yet a third party app works flawlessly... I understand their points and they are not raised here for the first time, but I still do not buy it. The DFR and DFB could easily include a "device driver" - as easy as work together with UAPP - and finally get over it.


----------



## LazerBear

cribeiro said:


> And yet a third party app works flawlessly... I understand their points and they are not raised here for the first time, but I still do not buy it. The DFR and DFB could easily include a "device driver" - as easy as work together with UAPP - and finally get over it.


 
  
 While I agree with you that Audioquest should be doing more (and especially should _have done_ much more), I am not entirely sure that it is possible to solve the issue satisfactorily. One simple option would be to set the reported volume at max, so that Android would register the correct max value as well. This might leave many users with IEMs at ear-splitting minimum volume though. As for drivers, unfortunately Android is heavily sandboxed, and there is no simple way to install an app ("driver") on your phone that will change the way other apps send audio out, if that's what you meant. As far as I know the modification has to be made at a system level, and that means OEM or ROM maker. Single apps like UAPP can implement modified drivers, but only inside the app itself.
  
 There are of course many other DACs working well on Android, why? Well, some have a physical volume control, some have a gain switch, but for the remaining ones my theory (based mostly on other people's reviews and notes, mind you) is that other DACs might have less volume variation between min and max, which means that they can safely report max volume to Android without going too high for IEMs at min volume (and actually some do: many portable DAC reviews mention volume too high at min-low gain for sensitive monitors - see Cayin C5DAC for example). 
  
 Since the DF is supposed to be firmware upgradeable, I would think that there might be some way to solve this. If the upgrade is able to set the reported max value, for example, they could at the very least release two separate updates, one to set the max value at what currently is, and another one to set it at the actual max value. This would mean reflashing the correct firmware every time you want to switch (as a sort of software gain switch), i.e. a real pain in the a**, but at least it would give us a choice. However I am not sure that a big-ish company such as AQ would go for such a hacky solution (I can only imagine the emails that their support would receive after unsuspecting users flashed the wrong upgrade). So I can sort of understand that it might take a while to figure out a good solution, what I cannot excuse is the total lack of communication on their part. As far as we know, they might not even be working on it, honestly.


----------



## LazerBear

willowbrook said:


> I currently have chord mojo, planning to sell it off. Is the DragonFly Red a good choice if I'm looking for something smaller and cheaper. I don't want any batteries involved because I don't need them. I won't be carrying them around with my phone, will just use with my laptop at home. Is there any other devices like dragonfly red that are competitively priced? or any better models? Thanks.


 
  
 Missed your post previously - late reply (hope it is still useful):
  
 First of all a small note regarding batteries - sometimes they can improve sound quality, as the power source is "cleaner" as they say.
  
 Anyways, since you are looking for something smaller and cheaper, these are a few products you can try:
  
 Audio OPUS #11
 Shanling UP
 Shozy Lancea
 Dragonfly Red / Black
  
 As for which ones are "better", I am afraid you will have to try for yourself to see which one suits your tastes better, but DFR, DFB and the Audio OPUS are generally very well reviewed.


----------



## psikey

willowbrook said:


> I currently have chord mojo, planning to sell it off. Is the DragonFly Red a good choice if I'm looking for something smaller and cheaper. I don't want any batteries involved because I don't need them. I won't be carrying them around with my phone, will just use with my laptop at home. Is there any other devices like dragonfly red that are competitively priced? or any better models? Thanks.




Had Chord Mojo, went to DFR for similar reason to you, exchanged back for a Chord Mojo.

Lost confidence that AQ will produce a fix for android audio volume issues after asking them for 6 months now. Bought on promise that fix was coming.

Also, on PC can only have volume around 8-10 or too loud so very little controllability/steps. Sounds nearly as good as Mojo with standard def stuff but Mojo much better with HDef/DSD.

If you couldn't stretch to price of a Mojo then I'd still recommend DFR but would'nt advise selling a Mojo for it unless using with iPhone and not getting the popping/clicks some are reporting.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


----------



## Ranger345

Just receive my new Dragonfly Red from web shop.
  
 On the manual it says version 1.0, and the usb driver also indicates v1.0 .
  
 Is v1.0 the newest verion?  I thought it will be v1.5.


----------



## kovacs

The Dragonfly Red is version 1.0, the Dragonfly Black is version 1.5.


----------



## zerolight

To make that clearer, there have been three revisions to the Dragonfly Black line going back a couple of years. 1.0 1.2 and 1.5. The DFR is a new product line on v1.0.


----------



## jsplice

Has anyone experienced stuttering issues using the Dragonfly Red with the iPhone 6s Plus and the camera kit? My red works fine when plugged into a PC, but when using the apple camera kit through my iPhone, I get constant stuttering and hiccups. It makes it completely unusable. Sorry if this has been answered. I'm on my phone right now and it's hard to read through all the posts. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ranger345

jsplice said:


> Has anyone experienced stuttering issues using the Dragonfly Red with the iPhone 6s Plus and the camera kit? My red works fine when plugged into a PC, but when using the apple camera kit through my iPhone, I get constant stuttering and hiccups. It makes it completely unusable. Sorry if this has been answered. I'm on my phone right now and it's hard to read through all the posts.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 
  
 I also use 6s + camera kit + DFR.
 At first time I used Neutron music player I had similar problem of stuttering. 
 After I turn off some function to reduce the load of CPU the music became very smooth.


----------



## jsplice

ranger345 said:


> jsplice said:
> 
> 
> > Has anyone experienced stuttering issues using the Dragonfly Red with the iPhone 6s Plus and the camera kit? My red works fine when plugged into a PC, but when using the apple camera kit through my iPhone, I get constant stuttering and hiccups. It makes it completely unusable. Sorry if this has been answered. I'm on my phone right now and it's hard to read through all the posts.
> ...




That's good that you were able to get Neutron working, but my problem is happening with Spotify. There are no options to disable, and also, when using my iFi Micro iDSD with my iPhone, I do not experience any of this stuttering. It appears to be a problem directly related to the Dragonfly Red. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Bandooken

I am getting the popping sounds when using the DFR with the iPhone 7+, does anyone know if the the USB 3.0 adapter will actually remove the popping and as Audioquest says, make it sound 'better'? I am thinking of getting the 3.0 adapter but it looks so clunky. I wish apple would make a new one that inst so big.


----------



## zerolight

I'm using the 3.0 cck on my 7 plus with zero issues. Just works. Using DFR.


----------



## shootertwist

Just bought the DFR, i can confirm that there are no pop sounds so far using iphone 7+, ios 10.2, older cck. using both apple music and spotify. Works great hope it stays that way


----------



## cyclops214

My dragonfly red came in today And the crackling noise was there in the old CCK with my iPhone 7+  so I switched to the new CCK 3.0 USB version and it cleared everything up so I had some Velcro and Velcroed the CCK to the back of the iPhone case works great.


----------



## ksatayboy

Woa. The atmosphere for AQ and the DFB/DFR seems pretty bad after prowling thru nearly the entire thread. Was actually planning to buy dfb or dfr for my birthday to use using my s7e with my 1more triple drivers. 

After seeing this situation I think the best we can do is wait for the firm ware or wait for the new dongle being developed by aaw to publish it's components b4 i decide which to buy

Anyone with experience using the dfb or dfr with s7e? Apparently it sound better on pc then on your phone apparently.


----------



## zerolight

The DFR sounds great on my iPhone 7 and works flawlessly. I'm sure it'll work jus fine on my Mac and PC too. The only issues in this thread are really with certain android devices.


----------



## zerolight

@ksatayboy 



gavinfabl said:


> Red plus Samsung S7 with UAPP plus M50x headphones. Blistering good.




Not the Edge but I assume it's the same hardware?


----------



## ksatayboy

zerolight said:


> @ksatayboy
> Not the Edge but I assume it's the same hardware?




I read that but there is not much confirmation on its performance on android as a dac.

And for 200$ can I get something that might sound better
? Like a HA2 or fiio e18


----------



## motif2013

The DFR works wonders on my MacBook with plenty of power to handle my Beyer DT880 600 ohm Headphone.


----------



## UNOE

ksatayboy said:


> Woa. The atmosphere for AQ and the DFB/DFR seems pretty bad after prowling thru nearly the entire thread. Was actually planning to buy dfb or dfr for my birthday to use using my s7e with my 1more triple drivers.
> 
> After seeing this situation I think the best we can do is wait for the firm ware or wait for the new dongle being developed by aaw to publish it's components b4 i decide which to buy
> 
> Anyone with experience using the dfb or dfr with s7e? Apparently it sound better on pc then on your phone apparently.




Yeah I have been planning on buying dfr for awhile now had some Christmas gift cards I was going to spend on it but change my mind when seeing lack of support and the bulky cck. I'm waiting for other competitors now that can fill the gap. I heard the dfr at a show and liked it very much. I need something that small that sounds that good that works with all devices and OS's.


----------



## ksatayboy

unoe said:


> Yeah I have been planning on buying dfr for awhile now had some Christmas gift cards I was going to spend on it but change my mind when seeing lack of support and the bulky cck. I'm waiting for other competitors now that can fill the gap. I heard the dfr at a show and liked it very much. I need something that small that sounds that good that works with all devices and OS's.




Wait for the accessport or the shanling UP. Both might sound better than dfr. Or maybe a new version of dfr may be released hahahaha


----------



## jsplice

I had the same problem with my DF Red and my iPhone 6s Plus.  I reached out to Audioquest on this, and they suggested the same thing: to use the USB 3.0 camera kit.  I'm not really too keen on this personally, as it adds bulk.  I haven't yet gone out to get the USB 3.0 camera kit, so I can't confirm that it fixed my issues.
  
 On a side note, I've been comparing my DF Red with the iFi Micro iDSD using a pair of Beyerdynamic T1.2s.  They are surprisingly close in sound.  However, I'd say that the DF Red is a bit more analytical and lean sounding, and the iDSD is fuller and richer.  So far, the iDSD seems to be the slightly better match for the T1.2.


----------



## sejsel

ymie said:


> Has anyone compiled a list with working combo dragonfly black/red and android phone?
> 
> I think that'd be helpful and I wouldn't like to do the grunt work if someone else already has done it.


 

 I believe there is an app for Android called UAPP (Usb Audio Player Pro) that bypasses Android audio controls and enables android phone to work with Dragonfly.


----------



## morgul

I've been using dragonfly red with my iPhone 6s Plus and cck 1.0, I had so clicks some times but just restarting the iPhone solved the problem. I've been using iOS betas since before 10.1, and I'm now on 10.2.1, I use iAudioGate for a player.


----------



## macabong

Don't buy dragonfly red or any of the dragonfly. I bought one Red for my friend whom listens very loud. It won't serve him even to a decent level on a senn HD-6XX. While my Dacport Slim at $100 blows this out of the water. Sound quality is less or on par with my Slim. So disappointed with all the hypes. The better version Dacport HD just recently dropped to about $100 in few days is a stellar. Hope saving people some hundred bucks


----------



## ChrisSC

macabong said:


> Don't buy dragonfly red or any of the dragonfly. I bought one Red for my friend whom listens very loud. It won't serve him even to a decent level on a senn HD-6XX. While my Dacport Slim at $100 blows this out of the water. Sound quality is less or on par with my Slim. So disappointed with all the hypes. The better version Dacport HD just recently dropped to about $100 in few days is a stellar. Hope saving people some hundred bucks


 

 ​Maybe it doesn't work well with power-hungry cans, but it works great with IEMs and its sound quality (to my ears) is on par with the original ak120. I'm using mine with old Apple cck and iPhone 6s+ and haven't heard a single click or pop. I wonder why some experience it and others do not?


----------



## shootertwist

Highly recommend the dfr, it works great on my hd600... its not intended for that as i use the dfr for on the go listening but surprised it works well... but again as with many things in this hobby, its ymmv  what i like with the dfr aside from its great sound is its versatility, i can use it on all my apple devices and its just plug and play  and also i dont need to charge it hehe... i'm coming from a mojo and while that is indeed better overall, i hardly miss it especially since i wasnt able to use it when commuting on on a train since i cant strap it on my iphone7+


----------



## sejsel

I've been following the threads on DFR and DFB for some days now, and noticed one thing: number of people jump into the threads asking very specifically about high end (or by todays standards mid-fi) cans, and how well (for. ex. 300ohm HD600 or HD650, some beyerdynamics and similar) those can be driven with DFR or DFB.
  
 Now, pardon me for being quite ... well, "frank", but I do find the whole ordeal about asking this kind of questions extremely funny...
  
 300 ohm home headphone pairing with an entry level (albeit more than good, according to many) DAC specifically designed for portable use... ringing any bells yet ?
  
 I would not dream driving my AKG K701 or Senn HD600 (don't judge lowish 62 ohm impedance of K701 as any pointer to how are the to drive - they are demanding powerwise) with nothing short of a good, dedicated home headphone amp.
  
 The amp I've got at home is more than adequate for these home cans; now running of the laptop the great thing about these small DACs is that they are excellent (provided good sound synergy with the headphone - colorwise ) in between component, allowing the amp to work even better with these full headphones.
  
 Having said all of this, well, I find the notion of expecting these DACs to act as a full fledged headphone amps for this type of headphones as... nothing short of funny.


----------



## shootertwist

some people just want to see if it can drive high impedance cans, doesnt mean they will use it for such purpose primarily. If it works then great that's an added bonus for the dragonfly red. But it doesnt mean they dont have desktop amps as their primary setup. And yes the dragonfly red can power the hd600 to decent levels. Is it ideal? Of course not, there are other alternatives, but its good to know that the dfr can power it if the situation calls for it, just dont expect it to match your desktop setup.


----------



## sejsel

Then I stand corrected: looking at the specs and intended purpose of these DACs, I find even notion of trying and expecting these DACs to somehow run adequately these phones... well, sort of "optimistic".
  
 Looking at those threads and posts, It was actually really clearly stated, number of times, the same type of question all over again, and it was done often enough to give exactly the impression I've got.
  
 Now, I might be wrong in the end, and honestly, I wish I really am.
  
 The engineering is the art of the compromise, and it might be well worth mentioning (however obvious it might seem) that price/performance (capability) ratio implies exactly that - the compromise.


----------



## zerolight

chrissc said:


> ​Maybe it doesn't work well with power-hungry cans, but it works great with IEMs and its sound quality (to my ears) is on par with the original ak120. I'm using mine with old Apple cck and iPhone 6s+ and haven't heard a single click or pop. I wonder why some experience it and others do not?




Yeah. Mine us super loud with my Angies. I run it at around 30% volume. To suggest a blanket don't buy is just silly.


----------



## drykoke

zerolight said:


> Yeah. Mine us super loud with my Angies. I run it at around 30% volume. To suggest a blanket don't buy is just silly.


 
  
 Completely agree with zerolight. The amount of erroneous information, hearsay and pure speculation is unsettling.
 There is no substitute for extensive and repeated hands-on testing (I confess to being a scientist in my day to day job).
  
 The DFR is way more than loud enough with my 'difficult to drive' Sennheiser HD600 headphones for classical, jazz, rock music, and I am unable to discern any loss of dynamics on these platforms:
 Windows 10 desktop
 Windows 10 tablet on battery power
 Ipad Air
 Xiaomi Mi4S phone Android 5.1 running Onkyo HF Player or UAPP.
 Lenovo A10-70 tablet Android 5.1 running Onkyo HF Player or UAPP.
  
 However, I definitely agree that the volume is too soft with Android stock or other music players that don't have a proper USB driver.


----------



## jsplice

My Dragonfly Red is way more than loud enough for my Focal Elear and even the Beyer T1.2.  People who say that they need more power must be listening at extremely loud and potentially dangerous levels.  In Windows 10, with my Elear, I usually listen with the master volume set around 10-12.  With the T1.2, I usually never go above 20.


----------



## Rdwng1975

Looking at DFR but am concerned about the volume steps coming out of my iPhone. I will be using my HP50's. Anyone out there using it this way???


----------



## framework

Hi!
 Today I picked up my new Samsung Galaxy A3 (2016), to connect to my dragonfly black 1.5. The OTG-cable is a proper cable as well.
 Plug and play it did not work with Spotify, or the default player.
 I checked with all the OTG tools i could find. All seem to work. It gets the name of the device as well.

 People adviced me to get UAPP, which worked great. I even made a Tidal account to check if that worked. It did.
 Now the problem is that I use spotify alot, and cannot afford streaming Tidal all day, which I would like to be in lossless format.
 Are there any new ways I can try to fix this? Ive read through most of this thread, without finding any solution. Does anyone have a checklist?


----------



## zerolight

rdwng1975 said:


> Looking at DFR but am concerned about the volume steps coming out of my iPhone. I will be using my HP50's. Anyone out there using it this way???




I use it with Angies which are quite sensitive. I use it on 4 or 5 out of 16 on the iPhone. You can also use the slider instead of the buttons to get a more granular in between blocks volume step. I'd prefer an option to get more steps out of the phone, but it's not a deal breaker.


----------



## pkcpga

willowbrook said:


> I currently have chord mojo, planning to sell it off. Is the DragonFly Red a good choice if I'm looking for something smaller and cheaper. I don't want any batteries involved because I don't need them. I won't be carrying them around with my phone, will just use with my laptop at home. Is there any other devices like dragonfly red that are competitively priced? or any better models? Thanks.




Keep the mojo, I was surprisingly disappointed in the dfr after all the write ups. It has a very poor low end, sounds thin and bright for my personal taste. I'd try the dfr before selling the mojo. Good luck.


----------



## zerolight

pkcpga said:


> Keep the mojo, I was surprisingly disappointed in the dfr after all the write ups. It has a very poor low end, sounds thin and bright for my personal taste. I'd try the dfr before selling the mojo. Good luck.




What headphones were you running it off? It's neither thin nor bright with my Angies. It subtly cleared up the bass a little bit, but didn't make it less powerful.


----------



## sejsel

pkcpga said:


> Keep the mojo, I was surprisingly disappointed in the dfr after all the write ups. It has a very poor low end, sounds thin and bright for my personal taste. I'd try the dfr before selling the mojo. Good luck.


 

 Any of You people compared Audioengine D3 to Dragonfly Red ?
  
 I am running both units this evening A-B, and very suprisingly (to me) found Audioengine D3 to be soundwise superior, faster, airier, livelier.
 Bouncy and lively bottom end in comparison.
  
 To my ears (admittedly with Denon AH-MM400, bassy cans - to my AKG K701 ears) Dragonfly Red does Not sound thin or bright in comparison, it does not lack the amount in bass, nor weight. It is just less lively, more laid back, less expansive in comparison, less dynamic. It feels somehow more narrow as well. Less air by a good margine in comparison to D3.
  
 Biggest advantage with the Dragonfly Red with IDevices might be that it only requires Camera Lightning Cable, so the phone can be charged at the same time. D3 can run of the Iphone only with usb hub as power source, according to Audioengine.
  
 So, for mobile purposes - Dragonfly, as far as I know (do correct me here), but soundwise, to my ears, Audioengine, with same source material of the MacBook Pro Retina.


----------



## pkcpga

zerolight said:


> What headphones were you running it off? It's neither thin nor bright with my Angies. It subtly cleared up the bass a little bit, but didn't make it less powerful.




I used it with a bunch, focal utopia, sennheiser hd800, noble savant, noble Django, sennheiser ie800 and recently added Noble kaiser encore. With the exception of the the ie800 the others sounded thin, the ie800 still lacked bass and had less demention to vocals with an annoying hiss from the sensitive extended treble. Had no issues with volume just with sound quality but for its price I'm sure it's good just not comparing to the mojo that the original person was thinking of switching from. It's definitely a noticibly step down in all aspects besides portability their the dfr is better.


----------



## zerolight

I'm sure the Mojo is a better unit. I'm just surprised at it sounding thin through that array of headphones - maybe the bigger ones could have been underpowered but the IEMs wouldn't be. Odd. A/B'd with the raw output from my iPhone revealed subtle differences. I'd struggle to say either DFR or iPhone were thin.


----------



## pkcpga

zerolight said:


> I'm sure the Mojo is a better unit. I'm just surprised at it sounding thin through that array of headphones - maybe the bigger ones could have been underpowered but the IEMs wouldn't be. Odd. A/B'd with the raw output from my iPhone revealed subtle differences. I'd struggle to say either DFR or iPhone were thin.




Never A/B it with the phone jack since I had the mojo and a few other DAC/Amps including the arrow. They all provided more depth to the bass and vocalist. Also noticed the tone of the vocalist becomes sharper and this makes it sound thinner. The bass was also abnormally quick sounding on the dfr, I had to A/B it to my chord Dave and naim dac v1 also. Not sure it's necessarily the power more than the tuning, the dfr certainly has extended highs with some IEM's, the utopias and hd800 it can be painfully extended at decent volume. It's almost like audioquest tuned them for bose, Sony or general bass heavy headphones. Since the dfr sounded best with the bass heavy sennheiser ie80 and worst with the hd800 and savants. I guess I'm not sure what I was expecting from a $200 dac/amp, I just know I wouldn't switch from a mojo to the dfr, the mojo to me is worth the extra weight, might even try the new burson air if your trying to go battery less.


----------



## west0ne

framework said:


> Hi!
> 
> Today I picked up my new Samsung Galaxy A3 (2016), to connect to my dragonfly black 1.5. The OTG-cable is a proper cable as well.
> 
> ...




I suspect it won't work. I had the same issue with the Galaxy Tab A. Even rooted I couldn't get it working with android audio (only UAPP), the issue was the channel map settings were both zero with no way to change them meaning audio was being sent to the DF but the output was 0 or mute. I think this is an issue with the Samsung version of Android on some devices, I've seen reports on others (think it was the J series).


----------



## smellyoldgoat

buzzlulu said:


> Dragonfly's seem to be out of stock in a few places. Are they reconfiguring them to fix the click and popping issues on the new IPhone 7's??
> 
> Have they public ally addressed this issue?


 

 I think they were having a supply chain issue related to a factory fire.


----------



## henrylee

I got the DFB recently and found the sound to be very good when paired with my exynos s7 and ie80s on spotify. But after a day of usage the audio went all distorted and slowed down, unplugged it and plugged it back in the next day and found that there was noticeable hissing in all sources I've tried. I will be returning this for a DFR hopefully it will be better.


----------



## lombardox

Looks like there's a firmware update on the way later this month. It will add MQA decoding ability to DFR and DFB. Nice! 

http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2017/01/ces-2017-as-it-happens/

Not sure if it will address apple cable and Android volume issues.


----------



## pkcpga

lombardox said:


> Looks like there's a firmware update on the way later this month. It will add MQA decoding ability to DFR and DFB. Nice!
> 
> http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2017/01/ces-2017-as-it-happens/
> 
> Not sure if it will address apple cable and Android volume issues.




When I see it, I'll believe it audioquest also announced updates on the df's shortly after they were released with none to follow. I'm a tidal Hf subscriber and am skeptic of when Mqa will actually happen since it appeared as coming soon on their site almost a year ago. So I'll wait until something actually happens before getting my hopes up.


----------



## SpiderNhan

pkcpga said:


> When I see it, I'll believe it audioquest also announced updates on the df's shortly after they were released with none to follow. I'm a tidal Hf subscriber and am skeptic of when Mqa will actually happen since it appeared as coming soon on their site almost a year ago. So I'll wait until something actually happens before getting my hopes up.



I thought you got rid of your Dragonfly Red. Would an update prompt you to pick up a new one or are you here just to bash Audioquest some more?


----------



## pkcpga

spidernhan said:


> I thought you got rid of your Dragonfly Red. Would an update prompt you to pick up a new one or are you here just to bash Audioquest some more?




No if they did I might try one again since I use tidal and I'd like to try Mqa before thinking about a meridian dac since they are not cheap.


----------



## lombardox

As per earlier link, MQA content is available on Tidal (desktop app only for the time being) as of today and audioquest spokesman says firmware will be available in January. 

https://www.instagram.com/p/BO5GEfKlXCc/


----------



## pkcpga

lombardox said:


> As per earlier link, MQA content is available on Tidal (desktop app only for the time being) as of today and audioquest spokesman says firmware will be available in January.
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/p/BO5GEfKlXCc/




MQA doesn't appear on Apple desktop, I wonder if it's only windows based for tidal right now.


----------



## Topspin70

Just tried it on the Tidal app and the songs show up as "MASTER". Those same songs still appear as 16/44.1 on Roon. But guess we need that DF update before we can really tell how different MQA sounds.
  
 Update: Solved. Just need to set to exclusive mode and full res shows up.


----------



## west0ne

pkcpga said:


> When I see it, I'll believe it audioquest also announced updates on the df's shortly after they were released with none to follow. I'm a tidal Hf subscriber and am skeptic of when Mqa will actually happen since it appeared as coming soon on their site almost a year ago. So I'll wait until something actually happens before getting my hopes up.




Whilst I'm not holding my breath I don't recall Audioquest actually promising updates shortly after release, merely that the firmware was updateable and that they would be releasing a desktop update tool. It's true we have never seen the update tool but as they never released an update there wasn't really much use in releasing the tool.

Personally MQA on the DF doesn't bother me, when I bought the DF it never advertised it as being MQA enable so I went in 'eyes open', what AQ do need to address is getting the basic functionality working properly because there was an expectation of this at the time of purchase. If AQ get the Android/Apple issues resolved and introduce MQA then that has to be seen as being a bonus for owners.


----------



## snip3r77

Questions

1) Any link that compares it with DAPs especially the AK powerhouse?

2) How does the phone batter suffer as I'm using a 6S?


----------



## zerolight

Spent some more time listening with and without the DFR on my iPhone. With, it's definitely richer and airier. WIthout there's a tad more bass. Very small. Fortunately the Angies have a pair of in cable knobs for that 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.
  
 So I bumped the bass up a baw hair and it's now pretty perfect sounding.


----------



## pkcpga

pkcpga said:


> MQA doesn't appear on Apple desktop, I wonder if it's only windows based for tidal right now.



Not to get off subject but Tidal responded back with their is no MAC desktop or mobile compatibility yet for Tidal with MQA or master but are planning on releasing this in the future, no time frame for this yet. Also no plans yet for compatibility for MQA with bluesound yet but Tidal rep will forward my request.


----------



## Super_Guy

Is there a way to equalize the sound from the dragonflys?


----------



## framework

This is really gonna get expensive for me, since Im using UAPP to be able to use Tidal, and you cant download/access downloaded files. Streaming lossless data on mobile will drain my bank account way too fast 
 Hope there will be a way to fix this soon. Wouldnt hurt to include that in the next firmware


----------



## canali

framework said:


> This is really gonna get expensive for me, since Im using UAPP to be able to use Tidal, and you cant download/access downloaded files. Streaming lossless data on mobile will drain my bank account way too fast
> Hope there will be a way to fix this soon. Wouldnt hurt to include that in the next firmware


 
 just listen to it on your home wifi....this is how i also download all new songs to listen to them later on.
 but i know for now you cant' download MQA...but HIFI lossless you can.


----------



## canali

super_guy said:


> Is there a way to equalize the sound from the dragonflys?


 
 not directly i think...but try the sennheiser captune is you're using tidal or flac.
 https://en-us.sennheiser.com/captune-headphone-sound-app


----------



## Doori

Hy,
 will the red or the black drain the most your phone battery? Is this drain important?


----------



## west0ne

doori said:


> Hy,
> will the red or the black drain the most your phone battery? Is this drain important?


 
 There will be some battery drain but I've not found the DFB to be excessive. Bear in mind that if you play music straight from your phone the internal DAC & Amp will be using power, the DFB/DFR is using more but not massive amounts more.


----------



## Doori

Thx for the answer. Black and Red needs are the same?


----------



## frevo

> Like Black, Red runs from USB bus power and will travel anywhere. Rankin again:_ “In general the Red will draw less into the same load as Black. But just a little… as the bias current for the Black amp is a little higher.” _Translation: Red will dent the portable host device’s battery life ever so slightly less than Black.


 
 from http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2016/04/audioquests-dragonfly-red-puts-high-end-daps-on-notice/


----------



## Doori

Thx, I will go for the Red.


----------



## framework

canali said:


> just listen to it on your home wifi....this is how i also download all new songs to listen to them later on.
> but i know for now you cant' download MQA...but HIFI lossless you can.


 
 Are you sure about this? I can only use UAPP for audio on my Galaxy A3 2016
 Ive heard that if you playback your saved Tidal tracks via uapp, it doesnt work, it still streams from the internet. So its pricey mobile data-wise?

 EDIT: Just tested to playback my playlist (which is downloaded on my phone) via UAPP and it used data traffic.
 Are you saying that if i get Tidal Hifi subscription i can playback my songs locally?


----------



## canali

framework said:


> Are you sure about this? I can only use UAPP for audio on my Galaxy A3 2016
> 
> Ive heard that if you playback your saved Tidal tracks via uapp, it doesnt work, it still streams from the internet. So its pricey mobile data-wise?
> 
> ...




I use a DF red, iPod touch6 listen to offline alot thru Onkyo HF player or senn captune ...Perhaps diff w uapp?... don't think so however. Just in settings turn your data roaming off, Wi-Fi on and try it that way to test


----------



## framework

canali said:


> I use a DF red, iPod touch6 listen to offline alot thru Onkyo HF player or senn captune ...Perhaps diff w uapp?... don't think so however. Just in settings turn your data roaming off, Wi-Fi on and try it that way to test


 
 It works if I only play through Wifi with data traffic turned off.
 If i turn off both the wifi and data, UAPP says it needs connection with Tidal to be able to play the songs that are downloaded on my phone.
 But I can play them via Tidal when im completely offline (via jack), but Tidal doesnt work with my DAC at all on my galaxy A3, and never have.


----------



## canali

framework said:


> It works if I only play through Wifi with data traffic turned off.
> 
> If i turn off both the wifi and data, UAPP says it needs connection with Tidal to be able to play the songs that are downloaded on my phone.
> 
> But I can play them via Tidal when im completely offline (via jack), but Tidal doesnt work with my DAC at all on my galaxy A3, and never have.




My my apologies for any confusion I caused as i wasn't aware you're using uapp... I'm using iOS as mentioned so it's probably different.

But perhaps someone else in your situation can also chime in with some tips to help you out here.


----------



## snip3r77

frevo said:


> from http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2016/04/audioquests-dragonfly-red-puts-high-end-daps-on-notice/




Anyine knows the battery dent if one use the red or black for 90mins a day on an iphone 6s? Thanks


----------



## coolcrew23

snip3r77 said:


> Anyine knows the battery dent if one use the red or black for 90mins a day on an iphone 6s? Thanks




Not that bad. I use on my 7 Plus and probably drains 3-5% faster. It also depends if you keep backlight on and keep changing tracks. You'll barely feel it if you already use your device as a music player.


----------



## sejsel

snip3r77 said:


> Anyine knows the battery dent if one use the red or black for 90mins a day on an iphone 6s? Thanks




http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2016/04/audioquests-dragonfly-red-puts-high-end-daps-on-notice/

Quote from the article in digitalaudioreview, linked above:

"...... AudioQuest’s ‘Fly dongles, particularly the Red. The PIC32MX270 chip’s super low power needs sees an iPhone paired with Red (or Black) exceed all but the Sony NW-ZX2 on continuous playtime hours."


----------



## snip3r77

coolcrew23 said:


> Not that bad. I use on my 7 Plus and probably drains 3-5% faster. It also depends if you keep backlight on and keep changing tracks. You'll barely feel it if you already use your device as a music player.







sejsel said:


> http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2016/04/audioquests-dragonfly-red-puts-high-end-daps-on-notice/http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2016/04/audioquests-dragonfly-red-puts-high-end-daps-on-notice/
> 
> Quote from the article in digitalaudioreview, linked above:
> 
> "...... AudioQuest’s ‘Fly dongles, particularly the Red. The PIC32MX270 chip’s super low power needs sees an iPhone paired with Red (or Black) exceed all but the Sony NW-ZX2 on continuous playtime hours."




Thanks.. means it's rather insignificant if one uses it for commuting.


----------



## snip3r77

Any occurrence of the DFR having issues with overdrawing power from the lightning port?
Also which DAP is on the same level as DFR assuming an iPhone is used ( not via lappy or desktop ).

Thanks


----------



## sejsel

snip3r77 said:


> Thanks.. means it's rather insignificant if one uses it for commuting.




Most likely...
What came as a total surprise to me, after some reading done here and on other threads, was - that to my ears - DFR came sonically sort of short in direct comparisons to Audioengine D3. Other than that, DFR can be run of the iPhone SE, whereas D3 needs additional power source, so for mobile use DFR seems to be the only alternative.


----------



## sejsel

mikeright said:


> Hi everybody!
> 
> Today I have the opportunity to make some *A/B/C test between Audioquest dragonfly black, red and Mojo *
> 
> ...


 
  
 Got the Red, and noticed that output volume is significantly lower than Audioengine D3.
  
 Can anyone confirm the point 2 here (in the quoted post) - that Black offer higher output volume than the Red?
 The impression I've got previously from all the reviews and posts was the other way round.
  
 I have less than a week to determine this, and the funny thing is that the claim is also than the sound quality of the Red is superior, whereas here I read a bit contradictory impressions (to some extent) .


----------



## pkcpga

sejsel said:


> Got the Red, and noticed that output volume is significantly lower than Audioengine D3.
> 
> Can anyone confirm the point 2 here (in the quoted post) - that Black offer higher output volume than the Red?
> The impression I've got previously from all the reviews and posts was the other way round.
> ...




I didn't find overall volume higher in the black or red just better volume control with the red. The black one click up could be a major volume jump instead of a normal step or could be nothing. They have different sound signatures so I think it depends on what you like better, the black offers more bass response and thicker vocals but a little muddier to me than the red but the red sounds a bit thin to me with a slight extension to the highs that in certain songs was unpleasant for me. But the red definitely has more detailed mids a bit thinner than the black but more detail and well as more detail in the highs. So I think it's personal preference if you are a basshead go with the black, you like extended highs with the extra detail go with the red. But I didn't notice a major volume difference more of a volume control difference. I used an iPhone so not sure if there's any fix on volume with androids yet without using an app.


----------



## SpiderNhan

From what I've gleaned reading this thread, the performance of the DFB and DFR is source dependent. Even on my Android powered Galaxy S6 Active running the DFR with native Android USB audio conversion sounds quieter with lower audio fidelity than through USB Audio Player Pro. I can confirm that there is some upconversion happening using native Android protocol because the DFR LED stays at a constant magenta signaling that it is outputting at 96khz regardless of the sample rate of my media. Through USB Audio Player Pro, the colors will change according to the file being played.
  
 Plugged into my desktop PC or laptop will yield a similar result where the DFR will default to whichever sample rate I set in Windows. If I set it to 44.1, the DFR remains green exclusively. If I set it to 96 it will stay magenta. It's only when I override Windows' Directsound protocol using WASAPI through JRiver Media Center that the DFR will match the sample rates of my media. I don't have any Apple products so I don't know the variations in performance that can occur with iOS and MacOS, but I'm sure there will be differences there as well.


----------



## kmp14

I just sent audioquest a question about the Android volume level. I realize the topic been discussed to death but I just got my red, and I'm happy with the sound with the app that lets you get the volume up, but I would also like to use the better DAC with Google Play music. So without an update or fix from them I think my red will be going back.

I would assume they're getting this question a lot, and I will get a stock answer. But the unfortunate reality is I do have to return it if that volume level problem can't get fixed. I will report back if I get any kind of different answer than the ones I have seen already.


----------



## sejsel

pkcpga said:


> I didn't find overall volume higher in the black or red just better volume control with the red. The black one click up could be a major volume jump instead of a normal step or could be nothing. They have different sound signatures so I think it depends on what you like better, the black offers more bass response and thicker vocals but a little muddier to me than the red but the red sounds a bit thin to me with a slight extension to the highs that in certain songs was unpleasant for me. But the red definitely has more detailed mids a bit thinner than the black but more detail and well as more detail in the highs. So I think it's personal preference if you are a basshead go with the black, you like extended highs with the extra detail go with the red. But I didn't notice a major volume difference more of a volume control difference. I used an iPhone so not sure if there's any fix on volume with androids yet without using an app.


 

 Thank You, much appreciated. It is always good to hear for oneself, which I intend to do tomorrow in the local shop, where It was bought.
  
 The thing is that - what You point out regarding "basshead vs. otherwise" that I am definitely not a basshead, so it will be interesting comparison hopefully tomorrow.
 I would be honestly disappointed if Black gave higher volume output than the Red, since it should be the other way around according to the specs. (if I got them, and interpreted them correctly).
  
 I am reading the thread from the beginning and am somewhere at the page 6 or 7 reading through the posts. A lot of contradictory claims and confusion that far.
  
 Might be important to mention in this contex - I use MacBook Pro Retina, and Iphone SE. Used Android some time ago, and occasionaly on one old tablet and smaller Sony xperia model, hardly ever now, since I got the Iphone.


----------



## pkcpga

sejsel said:


> Thank You, much appreciated. It is always good to hear for oneself, which I intend to do tomorrow in the local shop, where It was bought.
> 
> The thing is that - what You point out regarding "basshead vs. otherwise" that I am definitely not a basshead, so it will be interesting comparison hopefully tomorrow.
> I would be honestly disappointed if Black gave higher volume output than the Red, since it should be the other way around according to the specs. (if I got them, and interpreted them correctly).
> ...




Good luck, volume goes up quickier on the black but than stops changing after about 50%, is what I noticed while the red takes more clicks to get to that volume but has even volume steps. But I didn't notice a different end volume between them. More of a sound signature difference. Neither powered full sized headphones like LCD 3's or grado well for me, fine with IEM's or headphones that don't require power to sound full. So depends on what your looking to power, Apple only allows a certain amount of power to be drawn before it turns off the external power supply to the device.


----------



## sejsel

pkcpga said:


> Good luck, volume goes up quickier on the black but than stops changing after about 50%, is what I noticed while the red takes more clicks to get to that volume but has even volume steps. But I didn't notice a different end volume between them. More of a sound signature difference. Neither powered full sized headphones like LCD 3's or grado well for me, fine with IEM's or headphones that don't require power to sound full. So depends on what your looking to power, Apple only allows a certain amount of power to be drawn before it turns off the external power supply to the device.


 

 Taken all your point into account, forgot to mention some of them earlier when replying - but you have repeated them now (thankfully, I have to say !    ) .
  
 Never intended to power full sized headphones with the Dragonfly, only done a brief test with Senn HD600 and AKG K701.
  
 Returned Denon AH-MM400 today, to much bass presence to my ears (in some EDM tracks, at times perfect, at times too much, so I decided it was not worth it).
 Ran the days before today with Denon headphones.
  
 I will be getting the Audio Technica ATH MSR7 probably tomorrow or on tuesday, other than that I am about to purchase XTZ Earphone 12 as an in-ear option when going out.
 Denon and ATH MSR7 are rated as 35ohm impedance cans.
  
 The question remains whether there is really any benefit from using the DFs with XTZ earpohones.


----------



## SpiderNhan

Some interesting news if it proves to be true.



Quote: "If you're thinking, "Well the DragonFlys are limited to 24/96," you like me, would be wrong."


 


Full article below.

http://www.audiostream.com/content/mqa-blue-new-black#LLfOIagLAyS2tJFG.99


----------



## all999

Is MQA udate already out, or do we have to wait for it?


----------



## Mojo777

Yeah I just signed back up on Tidal to try out MQA "Masters" and am curious of the update is coming soon or should I pick up a Meridian Explorer 2 to try out this format


----------



## pkcpga

mojo777 said:


> Yeah I just signed back up on Tidal to try out MQA "Masters" and am curious of the update is coming soon or should I pick up a Meridian Explorer 2 to try out this format




I tried emailing audioquest and the only response I got was "stay tuned it's in the works". So there is no official release date as of yet. If you have a bluesound it plays mqa through tidal already, as long as you did your bluesound update.


----------



## Citsur86

AudioQuest is saying by the end of this month. But what's weird is I tried master tracks in Tidal with the Dragonfly plugged in and everytime I tried a master track (having first changed the setting in Tidal to give it exclusive use of the Dragonfly Red) the DAC went magenta to indicate it was receiving a 96KHz source. But since it does not currently support MQA, what is it actually delivering to my headphones? If I don't use the Dragonfly Red, and play the Master MQA track through my Mac directly to my headphones, is MQA getting properly decoded?


----------



## Slaphead

citsur86 said:


> AudioQuest is saying by the end of this month. But what's weird is I tried master tracks in Tidal with the Dragonfly plugged in and everytime I tried a master track (having first changed the setting in Tidal to give it exclusive use of the Dragonfly Red) the DAC went magenta to indicate it was receiving a 96KHz source. But since it does not currently support MQA, what is it actually delivering to my headphones? If I don't use the Dragonfly Red, and play the Master MQA track through my Mac directly to my headphones, is MQA getting properly decoded?




An MQA signal will work with any DAC. If the DAC you're using doesn't support MQA decoding then, from what I understand, the least significant 3 bits, which are used to encode MQA, effectively become noise resulting in a 18dB dynamic range reduction. With a 24 bit signal you won't even begin to notice it. If, however somebody knows a bit mre than I do about MQA encoding then please correct me.

My opinion of MQA is this - if it had come out 10 years ago then it would be a massive thing, if it had come out 5 years ago it would have been a big thing. Two and a half years ago, when it did make an appearance it was a thing, but these days it not necessary due to the increases of internet bandwidth. In the last 10 years I've seen my internet bandwith climb from 10Mbps to 20Mbps to 50Mbps to 100Mbps to 500Mbps and now I'm sitting on a 1Gbps connection with no increase in cost - MQA is not as needed today as it would have been 5 or 10 years ago.

Nice idea, but a bit late to the party.


----------



## pkcpga

slaphead said:


> An MQA signal will work with any DAC. If the DAC you're using doesn't support MQA decoding then, from what I understand, the least significant 3 bits, which are used to encode MQA, effectively become noise resulting in a 18dB dynamic range reduction. With a 24 bit signal you won't even begin to notice it. If, however somebody knows a bit mre than I do about MQA encoding then please correct me.
> 
> My opinion of MQA is this - if it had come out 10 years ago then it would be a massive thing, if it had come out 5 years ago it would have been a big thing. Two and a half years ago, when it did make an appearance it was a thing, but these days it not necessary due to the increases of internet bandwidth. In the last 10 years I've seen my internet bandwith climb from 10Mbps to 20Mbps to 50Mbps to 100Mbps to 500Mbps and now I'm sitting on a 1Gbps connection with no increase in cost - MQA is not as needed today as it would have been 5 or 10 years ago.
> 
> Nice idea, but a bit late to the party.




I'd disagree since shortly you'll be able to play better sound quality music on the go without having to predownload it. And I already have some downloaded in mqa since the file sizes are drastically smaller than dsd. Plus you can already stream wirelessly from Tidal in mqa quality if you have a bluesound node 2. So I find plenty of advantages and I find the mqa files to be noticeably better than cd files or regular tidal hifi.


----------



## sejsel

Now, this is what I'm talking about... Nice to see you boys going at it... Keep on keepin' on


----------



## andrewski

I'm curious. I have my doubts about it being better than "true" CD quality.
And on instagram, Audioquest says by the end of January for the app with MQA update


----------



## sejsel

andrewski said:


> I'm curious. I have my doubts about it being better than "true" CD quality.
> And on instagram, Audioquest says by the end of January for the app with MQA update


 
  
 Don't know anything about the specs for MQA and similar, but... used to make fm recordings of the EDM show fridays, very good/excellent quality of the signal and broadcast... Made a short experiment, and recorded the part of the show on Sony dedicated video HDD recorder (DVD/HDD) to its internal HDD, chose PCM option which turned out to be made in 48000khz as opposed to 44100 which is the CD standard.
  
 Without any placebo thingy (discovered not until afterwards the specs for the PCM recording on the DVD/HDD recorder) I could have sworn that that particular recording, compared to the same one on the Yamaha CDR-HD1500 had more air and space to it, sonically; I was really immediately struck by it.


----------



## andrewski

Thank you sejsel, that information is gold to me. I'm curious if that's transmitted 48 vs local 44


----------



## sejsel

I suspect in 44.1, but... that could be checked with the local radio... or at the website... anyway, still it was quality signal and quality broadcast captured from the tuner, according to the BBC radio experts it is still better in quality then the iplayer streams of the best quality, over the web.
  
 Disregarding the last remark, 48 khz recording - even if made out of the 44.1 broadcast might look different than the 44.1/44.1 - theoretically it shouldn't matter, but what I heard when listening and comparing has stayed with me until this day... there was a hearable difference.


----------



## kmp14

kmp14 said:


> I just sent audioquest a question about the Android volume level...




Well, I got a response from audioquest. It was the stock answer about the vol setting of 22 and Android not working right with that but they did say they have firmware update coming soon and although they didn't directly say it, they implied that it would solve the problem so I will keep my DFR and keep my fingers crossed...


----------



## pkcpga

sejsel said:


> Don't know anything about the specs for MQA and similar, but... used to make fm recordings of the EDM show fridays, very good/excellent quality of the signal and broadcast... Made a short experiment, and recorded the part of the show on Sony dedicated video HDD recorder (DVD/HDD) to its internal HDD, chose PCM option which turned out to be made in 48000khz as opposed to 44100 which is the CD standard.
> 
> Without any placebo thingy (discovered not until afterwards the specs for the PCM recording on the DVD/HDD recorder) I could have sworn that that particular recording, compared to the same one on the Yamaha CDR-HD1500 had more air and space to it, sonically; I was really immediately struck by it.




True mqa is 24/352.8 so df's should play it up to 24/96 unless they update df's to play higher.


----------



## sejsel

pkcpga said:


> True mqa is 24/352.8 so df's should play it up to 24/96 unless they update df's to play higher.


 
  
 I don't know whether that can be done software-wise, or if it is limited by hardware, not sure. It would be warmly welcome, if possible, it would give it some of the edge it need, IMO.
 What worries me more with DFR is granularity of the volume control in upper regions of volume, soundwise, since it behaves strangely there. Sonic - basic properties - of the device are probably more important than the rates even if we venture to Hi-Res.


----------



## Cann3dh33t

Just got the DF Red, sounds pretty detailed, I think it sounds cleaner then my Modi 2U (4396).


----------



## sejsel

IT sounds better and better even here, with Audio Technica ATH MSR7.
Resolution and detail, more coherence in the sound than at first.


----------



## GuyUnder

The Red appears to have a VERY weak output. Testing with plugging it into my audio PC and using the TH900, volume is much too low. Using a 3.5mm to RCA stereo adapter and plugging it into my Teac speaker amp, volume is STILL too low with volume maxed. I have to plug it into my Mjolnir 2 as a pre-amp into the Teac, again with gain turned to maximum, for the Red to finally output a respectable volume.
  
 A portable DAC should DEFINITELY not require a pre-amp! I know that it's probably dividing the signal into less than 1V by doing this, but without it it's not listenable.
  
 Plugged into the iPad Pro via a camera connection dongle (not the usb 3.0 version, that is coming in the mail), volume is good -- at maximum, but with severe distortion. Dropping the volume a few steps eliminates the distortion but is a little bit too quiet for me.
  
 I'll test it out with the new gear coming and wait for the update. If it doesn't become usable after that then back it goes. The Meridian Explorer 2 worked perfectly with very loud output an actual 2V line-out connector, so as it stands it's vastly superior. I really want to compare these 2 DACs at MQA decoding.


----------



## Topspin70

guyunder said:


> The Red appears to have a VERY weak output. Testing with plugging it into my audio PC and using the TH900, volume is much too low. Using a 3.5mm to RCA stereo adapter and plugging it into my Teac speaker amp, volume is STILL too low with volume maxed. I have to plug it into my Mjolnir 2 as a pre-amp into the Teac, again with gain turned to maximum, for the Red to finally output a respectable volume.
> 
> A portable DAC should DEFINITELY not require a pre-amp! I know that it's probably dividing the signal into less than 1V by doing this, but without it it's not listenable.
> 
> ...


 
  
 My Black on the other hand is super loud. Using exclusive mode on my players, the volume hardly comes near the quarter mark before my ears hurt. That said, loving the sound though. Just had to be real careful with the volume setting.


----------



## Cann3dh33t

Is it possible to connect the DF Red to an iPod Classic? All the 30 pin to usb cables I'm seeing on the net
 say for galaxy tablets.


----------



## Denoloco

Just got a Black yesterday. This little thing is a charm really. Along with my MSR7 I noticed improvement instantly.
 BTW with 1.5 the issue with iOS saying it takes too much power is gone, right? Just want to be sure since I'm about to pick a Camera Adapter tomorrow.


----------



## Citsur86

denoloco said:


> Just got a Black yesterday. This little thing is a charm really. Along with my MSR7 I noticed improvement instantly.
> BTW with 1.5 the issue with iOS saying it takes too much power is gone, right? Just want to be sure since I'm about to pick a Camera Adapter tomorrow.


 
 I've never gotten a power message.  I would suggest getting the USB3.0 Camera adapter.  It's more expensive but I read the 2.0 one skips and doesn't work as well.


----------



## west0ne

denoloco said:


> Just got a Black yesterday. This little thing is a charm really. Along with my MSR7 I noticed improvement instantly.
> BTW with 1.5 the issue with iOS saying it takes too much power is gone, right? Just want to be sure since I'm about to pick a Camera Adapter tomorrow.


 
 The power issue that was present with the 1.2 is gone with the 1.5 (DFB). It seems that the USB3 adapter is better suited to the Dragpnfly devices.


----------



## Denoloco

Great, I'll stick to the old one then. The USB3 one is too bulky to have on the go.


----------



## canali

*writeup by Darko on Tidal and MQA, currently.*
  
*http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2017/01/mqa-tidal-where-are-we-now/*
OPINIONSOFTWARE
MQA & Tidal – where are we now? by 


John H. Darkoabout


----------



## zerolight

I'm swinging back and forth between enjoying the DFR and preferring the stock lightning to headphone adapter. The DFR does sound more airy but the bass is reduced and the treble boosted. I can see now what was meant by it sounding thinner. I had a similar quandary with the original v1.2 model, it seemed to be playing with the eq more than anything. Perhaps it's because I'm only using Apple Music and Spotify as sources. 

Considering selling it since they seem to be fetching around £150 or so on eBay.


----------



## Gonzbull

I use the DFB with the old CCK and IPhone 5s. No pops or clicks or dropouts whatsoever. Powers my Sennheiser Momentum2 easily. I usually have the volume at 4-5 and it's really loud. 

I'm a Tidal Hi-Fi subscriber and I have to say the sound is exceptional.


----------



## LazerBear

zerolight said:


> I'm swinging back and forth between enjoying the DFR and preferring the stock lightning to headphone adapter. The DFR does sound more airy but the bass is reduced and the treble boosted. I can see now what was meant by it sounding thinner. I had a similar quandary with the original v1.2 model, it seemed to be playing with the eq more than anything. Perhaps it's because I'm only using Apple Music and Spotify as sources.
> 
> Considering selling it since they seem to be fetching around £150 or so on eBay.


 
  
 Well, what is technically considered "balanced" is what most consumers would call "thin", see any Etymotic product review ever. What headphones are you using it with? What genres of music do you listen to? Are you using Spotify 320kbs?


----------



## zerolight

lazerbear said:


> Well, what is technically considered "balanced" is what most consumers would call "thin", see any Etymotic product review ever. What headphones are you using it with? What genres of music do you listen to? Are you using Spotify 320kbs?


 
  
 I'm using JH Angies. Mostly rock, some pop. I know bright headphones (I used to have the Grado RS1i). I use Spotify 320k, Apple Music, and from time to time Tidal HiFi. Tidal was occasionally better, but very very subtly so compared to the other two - but not twice the price better. Currently on Apple Music for the family plan - my wife and kids want music too.
  
 There are several posters in this thread who claim that the Mojo sounds significantly better and fatter, whilst still being detailed, balanced, etc. The DFR is definitely cleaner and more detailed than the phone alone, but I feel its doing that by sucking out some of the low mids and some bass. I had a similar impression with the DF 1.2 and the Grado, in that it felt more like an EQ trick to pull detail by removing bass and mids, and ultimately it was so fatiguing I returned the 1.2.
  
 I'm on the fence. Sometimes I love the DFR a lot, but other times it is fatiguing. Honestly, the difference between direct to the iPhone 7+ ouput vs through the DFR, ignoring the fatigue and tone shift, is so small that I wonder whether it's worth carrying the DFR and CCK3 about at all. It's not the OMG that's amazing experience that I had when using the Angies for the first time. I'm curious about the Mojo now, but it's a bit pricey.


----------



## malcbo

zerolight said:


> I'm using JH Angies. Mostly rock, some pop. I know bright headphones (I used to have the Grado RS1i). I use Spotify 320k, Apple Music, and from time to time Tidal HiFi. Tidal was occasionally better, but very very subtly so compared to the other two - but not twice the price better. Currently on Apple Music for the family plan - my wife and kids want music too.
> 
> There are several posters in this thread who claim that the Mojo sounds significantly better and fatter, whilst still being detailed, balanced, etc. The DFR is definitely cleaner and more detailed than the phone alone, but I feel its doing that by sucking out some of the low mids and some bass. I had a similar impression with the DF 1.2 and the Grado, in that it felt more like an EQ trick to pull detail by removing bass and mids, and ultimately it was so fatiguing I returned the 1.2.
> 
> I'm on the fence. Sometimes I love the DFR a lot, but other times it is fatiguing. Honestly, the difference between direct to the iPhone 7+ ouput vs through the DFR, ignoring the fatigue and tone shift, is so small that I wonder whether it's worth carrying the DFR and CCK3 about at all. It's not the OMG that's amazing experience that I had when using the Angies for the first time. I'm curious about the Mojo now, but it's a bit pricey.


 

 Hi,
 I have both DFR (bought it a few weeks before the latter) and Mojo that I'm using mostly with my iPhone 7.
 I also feel that the Mojo does sound fuller, more detailed, more natural, way more powerful and less fatiguing than the DFR.
 Despite the high price, I'm really happy I purchased the Mojo.
 It is of course much less practical than the DFR on the go, but the pleasure it brings to my ears makes me forget this downside.
  
 I'm keeping the DFR nonetheless as it can be very practical when travelling.


----------



## zerolight

pkcpga said:


> I used it with a bunch, focal utopia, sennheiser hd800, noble savant, noble Django, sennheiser ie800 and recently added Noble kaiser encore. With the exception of the the ie800 the others sounded thin, the ie800 still lacked bass and had less demention to vocals with an annoying hiss from the sensitive extended treble. Had no issues with volume just with sound quality but for its price I'm sure it's good just not comparing to the mojo that the original person was thinking of switching from. It's definitely a noticibly step down in all aspects besides portability their the dfr is better.




You've now got me thinking about a Mojo. Listed my DFR in the classifieds forum now to help fund one. #badinfluence


----------



## GuyUnder

The Red is a Sabre chip amp, it's obviously no match for the custom FPGA design of the Mojo.

But these little ICs are impressive. Connected to my iPad Pro they drive the TH900, including bass, to a reasonable level of quality. Haven't gotten around with trying them with the Utopia.

I also have the Meridian Explorer 2 I'm trying to make work with a split USB cable + battery pack. I really want to compare the two on my iPad.


----------



## pkcpga

guyunder said:


> The Red is a Sabre chip amp, it's obviously no match for the custom FPGA design of the Mojo.
> 
> But these little ICs are impressive. Connected to my iPad Pro they drive the TH900, including bass, to a reasonable level of quality. Haven't gotten around with trying them with the Utopia.
> 
> I also have the Meridian Explorer 2 I'm trying to make work with a split USB cable + battery pack. I really want to compare the two on my iPad.




I'd be interested in hearing if that works well, explorer 2 is suppose to be pretty good and mqa.


----------



## sejsel

topspin70 said:


> My Black on the other hand is super loud. Using exclusive mode on my players, the volume hardly comes near the quarter mark before my ears hurt. That said, loving the sound though. Just had to be real careful with the volume setting.


 

 Now, this (the quoted post, within the quote above, telling about the Dragonfly Red's (allegedly) comparatively weak output (to Black) got omitted here)
 really seems to be a reccurring issue with these two models, and in my book, despite the superior sound quality of the Red (capable of rendering the complex passages in music better than the Black, according to the online reviews)
 it would be really strange if the difference in the achievable volume in the cans (in favor of the Black) was proven correct, having in mind double the price for the Red.
  
 It would be nice if someone could confirm this in direct comparison between the two units.
 I will have to go to the local store myself and compare these two on my own...


----------



## MarkF786

markf786 said:


> The insides of my DFB have become lose so that the headphone jack now wiggles.  I haven't dropped or mistreated it; it just started happening after a month or so of infrequent use.
> 
> Has anyone found a way to fix this?  Is it something that would be covered under warranty?
> 
> ...


 

 I had sent my DFB back for warranty repair due to the motherboard rattling around loose inside the case, and today I received the new one in the mail.  Though it's seems to be brand new in a new box, It has the same darn problem!  At least my first one was solid for several months, so somehow I don't think this is "normal".
  
 Is this a common problem, where the motherboard (with the connecting USB plug and headphone jack) is loose inside the case, rattling around when you shake it?
  
 I really don't want to spend another $10 in shipping to return it, going for a few weeks without it, and hoping the next one is of quality.
  
 Yeah, I know it's a minor issue, but the quality is disappointing.


----------



## pkcpga

sejsel said:


> Now, this (the quoted post, within the quote above, telling about the Dragonfly Red's (allegedly) comparatively weak output (to Black) got omitted here)
> really seems to be a reccurring issue with these two models, and in my book, despite the superior sound quality of the Red (capable of rendering the complex passages in music better than the Black, according to the online reviews)
> it would be really strange if the difference in the achievable volume in the cans (in favor of the Black) was proven correct, having in mind double the price for the Red.
> 
> ...




I perceived this at first because the volume rises faster and not evenly on the black connected to my iPhone while the red takes even steps up in volume. I found at about 50% volume the black didn't really increase in volume any more just started to distort while the red continue to increase in volume to about 80% before distorting and to me both were similar volumes at that point just different volume levels. So I think it's more perceived louder since volume increases faster and levels off instead of even steps. But I can no longer retry so I no longer own them. I know my local shop has demos of both, but I'm not currently home.


----------



## LazerBear

markf786 said:


> I had sent my DFB back for warranty repair due to the motherboard rattling around loose inside the case, and today I received the new one in the mail.  Though it's seems to be brand new in a new box, It has the same darn problem!  At least my first one was solid for several months, so somehow I don't think this is "normal".
> 
> Is this a common problem, where the motherboard (with the connecting USB plug and headphone jack) is loose inside the case, rattling around when you shake it?
> 
> ...


 
  
 I've heard it mentioned a bunch of times in this thread, so it is definitely not an isolated issue, I am afraid.


----------



## SpiderNhan

I decided to make this video in response to the volume issues people have been posting about. I think these problems are in the minority and feel that these posts might be unfairly driving away people who are interested in a gadget I enjoy using.


----------



## kmp14

The video is "private" so we are not able to watch it.


----------



## SpiderNhan

kmp14 said:


> The video is "private" so we are not able to watch it.


 
 Oops. Fixed.


----------



## UNOE

Does 1.2 support MQA?


----------



## YamaVega

malcbo said:


> Hi,
> I have both DFR (bought it a few weeks before the latter) and Mojo that I'm using mostly with my iPhone 7.
> I also feel that the Mojo does sound fuller, more detailed, more natural, way more powerful and less fatiguing than the DFR.
> Despite the high price, I'm really happy I purchased the Mojo.
> ...


 
  
 One thing keeping me from getting the Mojo, aside from the huge price, is that it wont work with my Spotify.  Unlike with the dragonfly, where Spotify and USB audio out works well with my Redmi Note 3.  Does your Spotify work with your Mojo?


----------



## malcbo

yamavega said:


> One thing keeping me from getting the Mojo, aside from the huge price, is that it wont work with my Spotify.  Unlike with the dragonfly, where Spotify and USB audio out works well with my Redmi Note 3.  Does your Spotify work with your Mojo?


 

 I'm a bit old school, as I don't use streaming services...


----------



## stuck limo

unoe said:


> Does 1.2 support MQA?


 
  
 No. Not the 1.2. The 1.5 and Red are supposed to.


----------



## Wilderness

brent75 said:


> I have (and love) that exact same combo. I can't exactly articulate how it sounds better WITH this combo...but more like I think it sounds worse WITHOUT it. A slight clean/less noisy/less fatiguing effect? I feel like I can listen a tad quieter too.
> 
> The added bonus is it allows me to sit on couch with laptop quite comfortably. When the long Red was sticking out of my computer w/ the headphones plugged in, I didn't love the stress on the USB -- it just seemed to float and want to sag (even if it didn't). The Jitterbug + Tail allows me to sit in pretty much any combination and have Red resting comfortably.


 
 I have the Dragonfly Red DAC and the Jitterbug. The Jitterbug seems well matched with the Dragonfly. The Jitterbug removed a small bit of treble brightness while bringing vocals forward with more clarity. There is still plenty of treble and sparkle, just not so much as to be harsh for the nearfield. I am very pleased.

 I recently purchased Dynaudio Excite 14A speakers and found them a bit too bright even after lowering the treble with the control lever on the back of the speakers. The Jitterbug solved the problem.

 I noticed that the Dragontail extender muddied the sound. When I removed the Dragontail extender, the sound improved significantly.

 I have $400 cables, and so the $20 Dragontail extender may have been a big downgrade. Folks disappointed in their Jitterbug may want to try removing the Dragontail extender to see if that improves the sound. Also, I have been playing music for about 20 hours with the Jitterbug, and that length of time may have contributed to the improvement. But I noticed an immediate difference when I removed the Dragontail extender.


----------



## pkcpga

yamavega said:


> One thing keeping me from getting the Mojo, aside from the huge price, is that it wont work with my Spotify.  Unlike with the dragonfly, where Spotify and USB audio out works well with my Redmi Note 3.  Does your Spotify work with your Mojo?



I don't see why it wouldn't, tidal works very well with the mojo from my iphone or iPad or computer and they are both a similar subscription service.


----------



## Wilderness

> would always recommend Jitterbug paired with Dragonfly Red. the Dragontail looks nice, but the Tail + Jitterbug are a no-go for me, because the Tail pretty much makes the Jitterbug useless, in my opinion, as far as audio quality is concerned.
> but if you want the low down and kicking the bucket pretty soon, the Dragonfly Red + Jitterbug are amazing together...


 
 Agree 100 percent.


----------



## MarkF786

yamavega said:


> One thing keeping me from getting the Mojo, aside from the huge price, is that it wont work with my Spotify.  Unlike with the dragonfly, where Spotify and USB audio out works well with my Redmi Note 3.  Does your Spotify work with your Mojo?


 

 Why do you think it doesn't work with Spotify?
  
 I regularly use by Mojo and DFB with Spotify and other other streaming services (Apple Music, Amazon, and Tidal) on both a MacBook Pro and an iPhone 7.


----------



## ilcg1

yamavega said:


> One thing keeping me from getting the Mojo, aside from the huge price, is that it wont work with my Spotify.  Unlike with the dragonfly, where Spotify and USB audio out works well with my Redmi Note 3.  Does your Spotify work with your Mojo?




My mojo (when I used to own it) worked flawlessly with Spotify - no issues whatsoever.


----------



## OliverBB

Just curious does Spotify work with Android? On my Galaxy S5 I assumed it didn't because using UAPP, Spotify is one of the services not listed in the app (although it has Tidal and Qobuz).


----------



## west0ne

oliverbb said:


> Just curious does Spotify work with Android? On my Galaxy S5 I assumed it didn't because using UAPP, Spotify is one of the services not listed in the app (although it has Tidal and Qobuz).




Spotify works on the S5 and will work with the DFB/DFR although there is still the volume issue that is an issue with Android not really the Dragonfly or Spotify to fault for this. Spotify doesn't work with UAPP and if you want to use the DFB/DFR with the Dragonfly you need to make sure that UAPP hasn't taken control of it.


----------



## OliverBB

west0ne said:


> Spotify works on the S5 and will work with the DFB/DFR although there is still the volume issue that is an issue with Android not really the Dragonfly or Spotify to fault for this. Spotify doesn't work with UAPP and if you want to use the DFB/DFR with the Dragonfly you need to make sure that UAPP hasn't taken control of it.


 
 Ok thanks. I'll give it a try tonight as I don't have it on me now. BTW I'm digging the DFB based on your recommendation awhile back!


----------



## canali

interesting is Linn's opposition to MQA (below)
...Darko says Linn's position is similar to that of Schiit.

*Why MQA looks bad for music*
http://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthread.php?tid=35624

still so early...guess we'll find out more as the yr unfolds.


----------



## pkcpga

canali said:


> interesting is Linn's opposition to MQA (below)
> ...Darko says it's position is similar to that of Schiit.
> 
> *Why MQA looks bad for music*
> ...




Not surprising by each time a higher res format comes out, many companies are against it but eventually cave with the exception of schiit that seems to specialize in clients that look for flac or cd quality only. I'm not surprised by the Lynn comment since meridian, Lynn, Niam and chord are competitors and meridian came up with another way to make money first.


----------



## Johnpdoe2

Hi!
  
 I read about 65 pages of this thread, and my conclusion is that in the beginning the opinions were a bit all over the place, but there seems to be a good consensus in that at least the Red is a solid product unless used with some Android devices.
  
 I still haven't been able to find answers to a few questions so maybe someone can help me here.
  
 My current sources are Spotify (random genres) and FLAC (classical, electronic-vangelis-ish) files played on a MacBook Pro retina or an iPhone 6s+. I've got some Koss PP,  Sennheiser HD555, and Sony MDR-100A. I've had one of the old BioScienceGeek CMOY altoid tin amps for years, and that I use with both a combination of the above. I like the form factor of the DragonFly, and I envision to use it most of the time in the laptop, even if I will eventually get the CCK as well.
  
 So my questions are:
  
 - In Mac OsX, when using the DFB/DFR, is the volume control granular enough to listen comfortably music through these low impedance cans, or am I going to have to deal with a 1%-10% volume range?
 - Are the DFB/DFR a noticeable leap in quality form the internal MacBook DAC and an external CMOY amp? (apologies if I am comparing apples and oranges, I'm pretty new here). 
 - I see that most people go straight for the DFR, but it is atm a quite a bit over my budget. So my final question is, is the DFB worth buying, or should I definitely wait for the DFR or nothing?
  
 Thanks a lot for this awesome forum!


----------



## kfarndog

johnpdoe2 said:


> - In Mac OsX, when using the DFB/DFR, is the volume control granular enough to listen comfortably music through these low impedance cans, or am I going to have to deal with a 1%-10% volume range?


 
 In OSX, generally between the volume control in the app/program you are using and the actual OS volume control you have enough control of the volume.  
  
 Ideally, you max the volume on the program and only adjust the OS volume, but you then run into the very problem you have identified. I don't find it to be an issue though because it works fine at 80-90%, creating finer steps.
  
 Cheers.


----------



## gdpeck

kfarndog said:


> In OSX, generally between the volume control in the app/program you are using and the actual OS volume control you have enough control of the volume.
> 
> Ideally, you max the volume on the program and only adjust the OS volume, but you then run into the very problem you have identified. I don't find it to be an issue though because it works fine at 80-90%, creating finer steps.
> 
> Cheers.




Also in MacOSx you can get 64 steps of volume adjustment instead of 16 by pressing alt-shift-volume up or down.


----------



## Herman

Cool. I didn't know that. Thx!


----------



## Johnpdoe2

kfarndog said:


> In OSX, generally between the volume control in the app/program you are using and the actual OS volume control you have enough control of the volume.
> 
> Ideally, you max the volume on the program and only adjust the OS volume, but you then run into the very problem you have identified. I don't find it to be an issue though because it works fine at 80-90%, creating finer steps.
> 
> Cheers.


 
  
 That's awesome, thanks a lot!
  
 And what about the MacBook+external CMOY vs the DFB^^? Has anyone any input on this? Is it a noticeable improvement? Cheers!


----------



## Cann0nF0dda

Hi folks
  
 I'm new to this forum and good audio in general, so looking for some help based on my observations and experience of the Dragon Fly Black (DFB).
  
 I bought my DFB last week following the Tidal MQA announcement and some judicious googling (and reading the last 60 pages of this thread) which piqued my interest about the whole high-quality streaming-music thing.
  
 So here is where I've got to:
  
*Apple Air 2* - Latest IOS and a new CCK:  Generally works very well, noticeable openness and precision to the sound.  Good volume through new AKG 550 MkIIs.  Tidal HIFI sounds slightly better resolved than Spotify Extreme quality.  However, not able to take advantage of Tidal Master or MQA yet.
  
*Galaxy S5* - Android 6 and OTG cables: Lowish volume much like everyone else for Spotify and Tidal.  Much better more open sound and very high volume when streaming Tidal HiFi through USB Audio Player Pro (Set to USB DAC and using "Hardware Volume".  But not ideal as I'd just like to take advantage of all the music I have downloaded to Spotify and Tidal while travelling.  Hoping the Android changes in the updated firmware fixes the main issue with DFB and Android.
  
*Laptop and desktop PCs* - Either Win 7 or Win 10 latest versions:  So this is where I've run into real difficulty trying to get Tidal Masters working effectively through the DFB.
  
 Under Win 7 or 10  (Sound \ Playback \ Device Properties \ Advanced) the DFB only presents "24 bit, 44,100 Hz (Studio Quality) as its lowest setting.  
  
 However, in Tidal Settings \ Streaming with checkboxes "Use Exclusive Mode" and "Force Volume" I get the error message "TIDAL requires you to set your system sound settings in Control Panel to "16bit, 44100 Hz (CD Quality)" in order to play tracks correctly so I can't actually use the DACs capabilities as intended.
  
 After much investigation, I found a workaround involving routing audio through JRiver Media Centre 22 (https://inspiringheadphones.com/are-you-getting-the-best-out-of-tidal-hifi) - at which point the DFB shows Magenta for Masters and Green for HiFi Tracks through Tidal and the sound is absolutely amazingly open and controlled!
  
 Unfortunately, with this workaround, the Volume resets to full with each change in tracks making this option actually untenable for any more than one track at a time.
  
*Conclusion and request for help*:  Has anyone had the same experience with Windows or found a driver or setting that enables the DFB to present a "16bit, 44100 Hz (CD Quality)" reading to Windows to enable Tidal to "use" the DFB in Exclusive mode?
  
 As far as I can figure this will be necessary for the DFB to work correctly with Tidal post upgrade so that we can get the greater benefit of MQA too.  Or does the DFR handle and present differently to Windows?
  
 As it stands I can't see a way to get the benefit of the DAC within Windows without a lot of workarounds and different software (JRiver / Roon, etc) - which makes this less than a plug and play or usable experience at the moment.  It also means that we can't take advantage of Master quality tracks in Tidal which was my main reason for buying into Dragonfly range.
  
 All help and advice very much much appreciated!


----------



## zerolight

Sold my DFR and ordered a Mojo. I now wish I'd kept the original CCK instead of returning for the USB3. Anyone in the UK want to buy a USB3 CCK which I bought from Currys in December? PM me.


----------



## kovacs

johnpdoe2 said:


> So my questions are:
> 
> - In Mac OsX, when using the DFB/DFR, is the volume control granular enough to listen comfortably music through these low impedance cans, or am I going to have to deal with a 1%-10% volume range?
> - I see that most people go straight for the DFR, but it is atm a quite a bit over my budget. So my final question is, is the DFB worth buying, or should I definitely wait for the DFR or nothing?


 
 I use a setup similar to yours ( Mac OSX ) and I own both the Dragonfly Black and Red. I bought the Black first but after using it for a while I decided to buy the Red ( and eventually sell my Dragonfly Black ). Both sound great for their price, the Red does sound noticeably better though. The problem I had with the Dragonblack was the anolog volume control, with my my Hifiman HE-400S (32 ohm) I'm only able to use the first 4 bars of volume in Mac OSX, without using alt-shift it would be impossible to find the right sound volume for me, anything above four bars is too loud, honestly it's barely usable. The Red has a digital volume control with much more evenly spaced steps. With harder to drive headphones like the Sennheiser HD600 (300 ohm) it's less of a problem to find the right volume with the Black, but the Black doesn't seem powerful enough to drive the Sennheiser, it's sound thin and unbalanced compared to the Red, both are loud enough with the HD600, but sound vastly different. The Black has a maximum output of 1.2 compared to 2.1 volts for the Red. Again with headphones that are much easier to drive like the HE-400S the difference is less noticeable. Also because the Red has an output of 2.1 volts it can be used as a DAC connected to a line in on an amp, the Black will work as well but the 1.2 Volts is below the spec most amps are designed for and could cause sound quality problems.
  
 Black + easy to drive headphones = good sound, terrible volume control
 Black + hard to drive headphones = poor sound, OK volume control
  
 Red + easy to drive headphones = great sound, good volume control
 Red + hard to drive headphones = great sound, great volume control
  
 Don't make the mistake I made, buy the Red right away. The differences on the spec sheets seem small ( analog vs. digital volume control, 1.2 volts vs 2.1 volts, better DAC chip ) but they add up.


----------



## H2Ologd

gdpeck said:


> Also in MacOSx you can get 64 steps of volume adjustment instead of 16 by pressing alt-shift-volume up or down.


 

 Thanks!  I never stop learning new things on this site.  I didn't know about the fine adjustments.


----------



## YamaVega

kovacs said:


> I use a setup similar to yours ( Mac OSX ) and I own both the Dragonfly Black and Red. I bought the Black first but after using it for a while I decided to buy the Red ( and eventually sell my Dragonfly Black ). Both sound great for their price, the Red does sound noticeably better though. The problem I had with the Dragonblack was the anolog volume control, with my my Hifiman HE-400S (32 ohm) I'm only able to use the first 4 bars of volume in Mac OSX, without using alt-shift it would be impossible to find the right sound volume for me, anything above four bars is too loud, honestly it's barely usable. The Red has a digital volume control with much more evenly spaced steps. With harder to drive headphones like the Sennheiser HD600 (300 ohm) it's less of a problem to find the right volume with the Black, but the Black doesn't seem powerful enough to drive the Sennheiser, it's sound thin and unbalanced compared to the Red, both are loud enough with the HD600, but sound vastly different. The Black has a maximum output of 1.2 compared to 2.1 volts for the Red. Again with headphones that are much easier to drive like the HE-400S the difference is less noticeable. Also because the Red has an output of 2.1 volts it can be used as a DAC connected to a line in on an amp, the Black will work as well but the 1.2 Volts is below the spec most amps are designed for and could cause sound quality problems.
> 
> Black + easy to drive headphones = good sound, terrible volume control
> Black + hard to drive headphones = poor sound, OK volume control
> ...


 
  
 Would it be a good idea to get DFB now, then get portable amp if needed in the future?


----------



## YamaVega

ilcg1 said:


> My mojo (when I used to own it) worked flawlessly with Spotify - no issues whatsoever.


 
  
 Good for you guys.  I guess my smartphone's USB audio out is picky with the Mojo.  I had to use Onkyo HF player to test Mojo.  Should I buy a new phone that works with Mojo?  God forbid, headfi!


----------



## SRKRAM

Having owned a DRF for some time, I just sold it on Ebay. I own a Mojo, which to my ears sounded much better than the DFR, but isn't as portable as the DRF so I wouldn't ever take it out of the house. The Mojo wasn't the reason I sold the DFR though. The reason was that I've also got an LG B&O Hi-Fi Plus DAC. Lately I've been trying to get rid of things which I don't really use, and only have one of each type of thing. Getting rid of headphones can be quite difficult because they can sound so different and you can like them in different ways. Choosing between the LG and DFR and deciding which 'portable' DAC to keep was much easier. After giving the DFR and LG one last long comparison I decided to let the DFR go.  I've alway thought of the LG as having a better form-factor than the DFR for portable use, and I also found that it sounded better than the DFR - A but more musical and not quite as harsh. Ultimately though the difference in sound quality was quite small. The LG can be used with a PC or Mac, so I did the comparison on a Mac with Tidal lossless as it's easy to switch between output devices on the Mac. 
  
 I know that the DAC chip is only one component, but interestingly the LG Hi-Fi Plus uses the same DAC (ES 9028) as the new Oppo HA-2SE.
  
 -Mark.


----------



## kovacs

yamavega said:


> Would it be a good idea to get DFB now, then get portable amp if needed in the future?


 
 You could do that but you will end up with a bunch of cables and adapters, I'm not sure it's worth the hassle to be honest. 
  
 I would go for a single-box solution like the Dragonfly Red, a DAC/Amp combo from another company or even a headphone amp straight out of your DAP/Phone.


----------



## snip3r77

I got the DFR. in WIndows, do I max the volume at the taskbar and then adjust the Spotify volume to gain bit perfect?
I'm currently max vol at taskbar and about 30+ % at Spotify

What about iPhone?


----------



## DLR Group

My understanding is the exact opposite. Turn Spotify, iTunes, whatever to max volume, then adjust output from computer for a bit perfect audio from the dragonfly.


----------



## west0ne

I would say do all of your volume control in hardware rather than hardware so for Windows that would be using the system volume.


----------



## Wambo

I recently purchased the DFR and have experienced numerous times where a loud screech comes through the headphones, Sure 846's. Unplugging and/or restarting the iPhone has cleared it. Wondering if others have experienced similar challenges? Definitely enjoying the sound and portability but wondering if it could be defective?


----------



## ljperez84

So, I'm decided to try the DFR for my office rig which right know is just HD598 SE and a macbook air. I'm thinking if the DFR is not going to be a little bit overkill for these CANs?
  
 The other option I'm thinking about is to do some swapping with the RIG at home which is:
  
 Grado SR225i (used 10% of the time)
 Sennheiser HD650 (Used 90% of the time)
  
 Audio GD Fun (WM8740) as DAC
 Schiit Valhalla (V1) as AMP for the Senns, The FUN is also used as pre-amp
 Grados are amped by the FUN.
  
 So what would you do guys? Is the DFR a better DAC than what I have at home now? I would like to leave the best equipment at home.


----------



## gabetjh

DFB or HRT microstreamer? Using Etymotic ER4PT and planning to use it on IP7 and MBP.
  
 Listen to music using spotify premium.
  
 Loving the portability of the DFB but i can get the microstreamer at the same price. Is getting the microstreamer abit of an overkill for the ER4PT?


----------



## snip3r77

Back to bit perfect, windows volume = max and software app ( spotify etc ) = variable ? 
Pls confirm Thanks


----------



## pkcpga

wambo said:


> I recently purchased the DFR and have experienced numerous times where a loud screech comes through the headphones, Sure 846's. Unplugging and/or restarting the iPhone has cleared it. Wondering if others have experienced similar challenges? Definitely enjoying the sound and portability but wondering if it could be defective?




Before returning the red twice I had a loud hiss that would occasionally appear on one than a loose rattling in the second one. So from my experience poor quality control so might want to exchange and keep your fingers crossed.


----------



## Wambo

Thanks, exchanged the first one and so far so good....fingers crossed


----------



## stuck limo

wambo said:


> I recently purchased the DFR and have experienced numerous times where a loud screech comes through the headphones, Sure 846's. Unplugging and/or restarting the iPhone has cleared it. Wondering if others have experienced similar challenges? Definitely enjoying the sound and portability but wondering if it could be defective?


 
  
 Yes, this is is apparently a thing. My friend bought the Black 1.5 version and on 3 different computers it was glitching out the audio occasionally.


----------



## Ymer

Hey there,

I need to pick up today either a DF Red to use with my Galaxy S6 or an LG V20. I like the S6 and would keep it longer but... 

Have the Android volume issues with streaming been adressed? That's definitive for a decision.

Thank you all


----------



## west0ne

ymer said:


> Hey there,
> 
> I need to pick up today either a DF Red to use with my Galaxy S6 or an LG V20. I like the S6 and would keep it longer but...
> 
> ...


 

 Simple answer 'NO'.
  
 Despite some suggestion of a firmware update there hasn't been one and as such the DFR will not reach full volume with the S6 unless you play all audio through UAPP. Additionally Android resamples all system audio (not UAPP though) and provides no direct hardware control over the volume of USB DACs (unless using UAPP).


----------



## Ymer

Thanks for the quick answer. Is UAPP a root solution?


----------



## west0ne

ymer said:


> Thanks for the quick answer. Is UAPP a root solution?




UAPP doesn't require root and is fine for music stored on your device or for streaming Tidal. It won't work with Spotify or other music apps or apps such as YouTube.


----------



## Johnpdoe2

OK, so I got a DFR, and I've been trying it out for a few hours now. Overall I have to say I am not very impressed when comparing it to the MacBook DAC and a simple handmade CMOY amp. I am using FLAC 44.1Khz and APE 44.1 too, and a bit of Spotify Premium.
  
 I have zero knowledge of how to describe the sound in audiophile terms, so please bear with me and see if this makes sense...
  
 Yes, there is a bigger separation of instruments, not a huge difference but to my ears it is there. There is also a little bit more of detail on the highs, with crystal clear ending of bells and metallic sounds.
 However, the whole thing is sounding quite harsh compared to the MacBook DAC. Sometimes the 's' in the vocals are even unpleasant. Granted the cans that I am using don't have a lot of bass (HD555) will try tomorrow with the Sony MDR100AAP which are a bit more bassy. It feels a bit fatiguing after a while, and I never had that problem before with the Sennheiser headphones.
  
 On the other hand, the sound out of the MacBook and through the CMOY seems to come more as a whole in both ears, with less separation between sounds. It is more difficult to position instruments on stage, and figure out distances...  but overall it is a more sweet balanced and pleasant sound. 
  
 I am ordering a Y splitter and see if I can connect my headphones to both amps at the same time (only outputting sound in one at a time of course, switching the output audio device in VLC) and do a bit more quick switch A/B test.
  
 So my conclusion is that while it is a little nifty gadget, pretty well built and convenient, it does not improve the sound a lot more than a simple amp providing the source is a MacBook Pro. Maybe the MacBook has a particularly good DAC already?
 I am going to say it is not worth the 170£ in my book. Obviously that's just my noob opinion. I was expecting a lot more for some reason. Unfortunately the shop I went to does not do refunds, so I'll have to live with it or resell it somehow.
  
 Does that match your experiences?


----------



## pkcpga

johnpdoe2 said:


> OK, so I got a DFR, and I've been trying it out for a few hours now. Overall I have to say I am not very impressed when comparing it to the MacBook DAC and a simple handmade CMOY amp. I am using FLAC 44.1Khz and APE 44.1 too, and a bit of Spotify Premium.
> 
> I have zero knowledge of how to describe the sound in audiophile terms, so please bear with me and see if this makes sense...
> 
> ...




By the sound of it you do not like the bright sound of the dfr, personal preference. I didn't either with some headphones. You might hear a bit more of a difference with tidal master streaming or higher res music. But it's a generic dac in the df series and the red happens to be the brighter more detail oriented version while the black is warmer more bass, smoother sound. There are dac/amps out there that meet in the middle from other brands.


----------



## Johnpdoe2

Yeah I think you're right. I might try and get my hands on the DFB then. 
  
 If anyone in London is looking for a DFR with 1 day of use ping me. I'll give it for 150 instead of the 170 that it cots


----------



## snip3r77

I'm testing a Hifiman HE-500 with the DFR. Volume now at 80% with some headroom.


----------



## Citsur86

Using the Bowers and Wilkins P7 Wireless in Wired mode with the DFR and setting Tidal to have exclusive use of the device (to allow it to change Mac Midi output based on song sample rate), nets me having the Tidal volume bar at about 1/10 for work listening volume levels.  Even when I put it all the way down, I still have low volume music coming through.  Am I doing something wrong?


----------



## canali

just love my little dragonfly red.....the mojo/ipod touch is a bit of a PITA to carry around.
 the dragonfly, however,s o different: such a breath of fresh air when paired with the ipod touch....lightweight, inconspicuous...
 and the sq diff: luckily i've no golden ears..when out and about anyway, lots of noise conflicting anyway.
  
 imo the dragonfly red is a little rocking wonder.


----------



## zerolight

pkcpga said:


> Keep the mojo, I was surprisingly disappointed in the dfr after all the write ups. It has a very poor low end, sounds thin and bright for my personal taste. I'd try the dfr before selling the mojo. Good luck.




You were so right. My Mojo arrived today. It's soooo nice. Detailed yet thick and warm.


----------



## pkcpga

zerolight said:


> You were so right. My Mojo arrived today. It's soooo nice. Detailed yet thick and warm.




Enoy the mojo, I have. Maybe AQ 4th attempt will have more balanced sound and better quality control because I do like the size of the DF's.


----------



## Ymer

Hey there,

Would you guys suggest DFB or DFR for using with Etymotics and listening to classical music?

Thanks!


----------



## west0ne

ymer said:


> Hey there,
> 
> Would you guys suggest DFB or DFR for using with Etymotics and listening to classical music?
> 
> Thanks!




When I tried them side by side I preferred the Red for classical, I went for Black because I liked it better with Jazz. Suggest you try both if you can.


----------



## Anouk

Hi everyone,
 I just started reading this thread. My dragonfly red arrived today and it already works flawlessly with my macbook air and audioengine a5+ speakers. I want to use it with my iphone 6 as well however and I was wondering if it matters which apple camera adapter you get: the normal usb one or the usb 3 one?
 Thanks in advance for the info.
 Greetings, Anouk,


----------



## jegnyc

anouk said:


> Hi everyone,
> I just started reading this thread. My dragonfly red arrived today and it already works flawlessly with my macbook air and audioengine a5+ speakers. I want to use it with my iphone 6 as well however and I was wondering if it matters which apple camera adapter you get: the normal usb one or the usb 3 one?
> Thanks in advance for the info.
> Greetings, Anouk,


 
 Certainly the USB 3 is the safer bet to avoid problems.  Less portable though.  Maybe get the old one, see if you have the clicking problem and if so exchange it.
  
 As I mentioned, my problems with the old CCK were reduced almost entirely after installing the newest version of iOS 10.


----------



## Depster

I have the USB 3 CCK and it works without any issues.
  
This info is from the Audioquest Site.

In some rare instances, the combination of an iOS device in conjunction with the standard CCK and DragonFly Black or Red causes a clicking in the background of the music.

Neither we nor Apple have been able to determine why that is, but in circumstances where this occurs we’ve found that using Apple’s Lightning to USB 3.0 Camera Connection Kit resolves the problem. In addition, this connector offers improved audio performance over the smaller unit and gives the end user the ability to charge their iOS device while listening to music.

 

Hope this helps

 

Marcus


----------



## Citsur86

I purchased the USB 3.0 Camera adapter from Apple for fear of the clicking I read about with the 2.0 version.  Haven't had any issues with it.  Although, I rarely use the iPhone to listen to Tidal HiFi now since I've been cruising through the Masters MQA content and need to use the MacBook for that!  I hope they enable Master on mobile soon.  Even if the app doesn't do any MQA decoding, the DFB and DFR will soon be able to do it all on it's own.


----------



## Citsur86

citsur86 said:


> Using the Bowers and Wilkins P7 Wireless in Wired mode with the DFR and setting Tidal to have exclusive use of the device (to allow it to change Mac Midi output based on song sample rate), nets me having the Tidal volume bar at about 1/10 for work listening volume levels.  Even when I put it all the way down, I still have low volume music coming through.  Am I doing something wrong?


 
 Hope it's ok to bump my question above.  Using the P7 Wireless with DFR on MacBook Pro using Tidal in Exclusive mode - Macbook pro volume doesnt matter, only tidal and volume bar at 1/10 it still very loud.  Anyone know why?


----------



## MX400

super_guy said:


> Is there a way to equalize the sound from the dragonflys?


 
 re-sampling sound software processors can ruin a lot with the way dragonfly can sound, so it depends on what OS/software/hardware platform you're using.
  
 if using EQ on mobile devices, you're at the mercy of the software, juice and cabling to the hardware.
  
 on Windows OS platforms, setup audio routing to "direct sound" and make sure ground paths and USB cleansing is present.
  
 if using hardware mixer, recommend jitterbug, it will keep everything clean from your dragonfly all the way through mixer/FX samples to your speakers as much as possible, but only if using high quality cabling.

 as far as software mixers, very few software developers get it thoroughly sounding right and tight on software timing. so don't be sold on dragonfly right away if you've only tested one program's EQ output.
  
 as far as hardware mixers for example, not a big fan of entry-level Yamaha mixers, it re-samples like it thinks customers are using low quality speakers, meaning I can hear the audio degrade significantly as if Yamaha thinks they want to synthesize everything back to the 90's tv-style speakers.

 EQ always works best on 320K/FLAC/WAV,etc sound files. highs/mids/lows, FX processors, will be more adjustable and tune-able on higher quality sound files.

 there are no real rules; if it sounds good, it sounds good, if not, try something else and keep searching. i was never able to get my highs at 60% smooth and perfect mids at 45% until dragonly_RED matched with the jitterbug.

 one listening issue with some hardware EQ's is the GAIN may be set prematurely with the volume settings, and sometimes it's absolutely hit or miss depending on what can actually be tuned with the immediate speaker controls and its tune-settings, and especially a problem for headphones that have built-in processors where the audio enhancement is "always enabled" and thus making the dragonfly_RED utterly useless with some EQ controls, as to deviate potentially preferable & desired change in audio performance and quality.


----------



## Anouk

Hi Guys,
 Thanks for the info, I will get the 3.0 adapter just to be on the safe side. Fingers crossed that it will be portable enough.
 2 more questions:
 I have an iphone 6 now but might want to buy a 7 later this year. My meze99 classic has a headset, i guess I cant use that anymore if connected through adapter and dragonfly?
 Second question. I have heard a bit in this thread about the audioquest jitterbug. Does it really make a difference and do you just connect that into your laptop and then connect the dfr to the jitterbug? I guess it also works with ios or does it need separate power?
 Thanks again for any info,
 Greetings, Anouk,


----------



## Cann0nF0dda

I've just bought a jitterbug for my DFB.  And in many ways it transformed the sound even more than the DAC - the difference is material to the sound.
  
 I'm using it with my PCs, Samsung phone and iPad Air 2 with CCK (USB3)
  
 You just plug into the USB port of your device or adaptor and then plug the Dragonfly into the jitterbug.  No further power needed.
  
 Best of luck.


----------



## malcbo

anouk said:


> Hi Guys,
> Thanks for the info, I will get the 3.0 adapter just to be on the safe side. Fingers crossed that it will be portable enough.
> 2 more questions:
> I have an iphone 6 now but might want to buy a 7 later this year. *My meze99 classic has a headset, i guess I cant use that anymore if connected through adapter and dragonfly?*
> ...


 
 It won't work connected to the Dragonfly.


----------



## good sound

malcbo said:


> anouk said:
> 
> 
> > Second question. I have heard a bit in this thread about the audioquest jitterbug. Does it really make a difference and do you just connect that into your laptop and then connect the dfr to the jitterbug? I guess it also works with ios or does it need separate power?
> ...


----------



## MX400

good sound said:


> malcbo said:
> 
> 
> > anouk said:
> ...


 
 will depend on the additional or specific hardware attached, and if tune-able software is present or not, to make the best use of the jitterbug. 

 for me, with jitterbug, sound timing is far tighter and attack processing is much, much faster on lows and highs, and the vocals are cleaner and may even be over-amplified depending on the sound file type being played back. jitterbug helps with alignment of pass-through data better into dragonfly_RED, and I would pair it with RED to get the best results.

 mostly more noticeable if using a variety of tools to monitor and listen, with jitterbug. I paired the jitterbug with a creative X-Fi sound card, and it made the flaws of the X-fi sound card more noticeable; the verdict of the culprit is the original source and where the data is being sent if nothing needs correction, then forget the jitterbug.
 if limited to the amount of hardware testing available, the jitterbug is mostly useless because like mentioned earlier, if certain priorities of sound listening cannot be scaled back or tuned, then the jitterbug may over-amplify the way product can sound, thus making it worst off than just using the dragonfly, alone. can't know what black is without white, and good without bad.

 p.s. - i only got the dragontail because it looked cool, but actually makes the sound worst for my equipment and hardware.


----------



## good sound

I was primarily using the DFR with my Android phone, and the Android specific Dragontail, which I found to sound better than another OTG cable I had. My Jitterbug is now connected to my desktop PC. Still don't hear any difference with our without the Jitterbug attached.


----------



## coolcrew23

Anyone use hd 6xx with these? Wanna know if they work fine.


----------



## LazerBear

coolcrew23 said:


> Anyone use hd 6xx with these? Wanna know if they work fine.


 
  
 I personally didn't, but as far as I know HD650 and HD6XX both scale a lot with power. As such, I don't think a stick-format DAC/AMP will give you the best results.


----------



## coolcrew23

Thanks sir! I kinda like my dragonfly's sound. Is there a way i can use this to power an hd 6xx? Maybe using it as a lineout for an amp? Or will that be double amping?


----------



## leaky74

citsur86 said:


> Using the Bowers and Wilkins P7 Wireless in Wired mode with the DFR and setting Tidal to have exclusive use of the device (to allow it to change Mac Midi output based on song sample rate), nets me having the Tidal volume bar at about 1/10 for work listening volume levels.  Even when I put it all the way down, I still have low volume music coming through.  Am I doing something wrong?


 
  
 Same question for me - using the Dragonfly Red with OSX I would typically set sound output to the Dragonfly Red, Tidal to Full volume & control output volume at a system level. Now with Tidal introducing MQA (& prior to the pending Dragonfly updates), I need to let Tidal control the Dragonfly in order to change sample rate accordingly. This means I need to set volume to full at a system level & control it via Tidal. This doesn’t seem to affect sound quality but I’m wondering if the pending update to Dragonflys will change this?


----------



## Johnpdoe2

mx400 said:


> re-sampling sound software processors can ruin a lot with the way dragonfly can sound, so it depends on what OS/software/hardware platform you're using.
> 
> if using EQ on mobile devices, you're at the mercy of the software, juice and cabling to the hardware.
> 
> ...


 
  
 So does the EQ in a software player like VLC degrade the data that gets into the DFR if it's enabled?  When using my headphones with vlc and some FLAC files I tried pumping up a bit lower frequencies with VLC's to attenuate the overall bright high signature and noticed a bit of crackle in certain parts (like sandy sound) and I'm still trying to find the cause.
  
 Is there any resampling taking place?  Do you guys not use EQ with using an external DAC?  Would that happen with any software player?


----------



## LazerBear

coolcrew23 said:


> Thanks sir! I kinda like my dragonfly's sound. Is there a way i can use this to power an hd 6xx? Maybe using it as a lineout for an amp? Or will that be double amping?


 
  
 You could use it as lineout, yes. It is technically double amping, but the Dragonfly is designed to work that way according to AQ. 
  
 Note however that most often than not the "colouring" of music happens at amp stage.. meaning that adding an amp will usually change the sound signature. If you want to preserve the Dragonfly's sound signature, you should look for an amp that is as transparent as possible.


----------



## joeq70

I use my DragonFly Red as a DAC to feed my Jotunheim. Sounds terrific.


----------



## MX400

johnpdoe2 said:


> So does the EQ in a software player like VLC degrade the data that gets into the DFR if it's enabled?  When using my headphones with vlc and some FLAC files I tried pumping up a bit lower frequencies with VLC's to attenuate the overall bright high signature and noticed a bit of crackle in certain parts (like sandy sound) and I'm still trying to find the cause.
> 
> Is there any resampling taking place?  Do you guys not use EQ with using an external DAC?  Would that happen with any software player?


 
 VLC creates a pre-process EQ into the dragonfly, and the dragonfly corrects the sound and reprocesses the data sent to your headphones. re-sampling doesn't always mean the sound is being created twice, it could be slang for the sound file being modified through a software engine before it reaches the destination of the soundcard, means it's not the flat 'most-original.' but keep in mind, the software needs permission from the operating system to utilize a method to transmit the data to the sound card. 

 Windows 8.1 / Windows 10:
 speaker properties: volume @ 90%-100%, "disable all enhancements", advanced: 24 bit, 96000 Hz (Studio Quality) / Exclusive Mode - check box on: "Allow applications to take exclusive control of this device" and "Give exclusive mode applications priority"

 there will be 1 / 100 flaws in every split second, which is just speculation. AudioQuest didn't make a perfect product but it's pretty close. occasionally I'll hear a snap, crackle or pop, because remember the dragonly_RED hardware is trying to reprocess software data sent to it. it's not common, maybe once every couple days when I'm listening to music mixes, certain kinds of software will have bugs in it, and so when I hear it, I have to hit the replay button 3-5 times to determine if it's a flaw in the file or just a software/hardware glitch.

 software EQ is pre-processed, while external hardware mixer EQ is post-processed with respect to how the dragonfly_RED is connected. the dragonfly_RED will reconstruct the sound data, and will not touch anything else once it leaves the 3.5mm DAC jack, so try plugging a different set of headphones into it on the exact same software settings.

 the VLC software has "2 pass" which sends the song into the EQ bands TWICE, double processed, sending the song EQ'd and EQ'd again through the same bands. you may have to play with the compressor settings on the next tab over. VLC does not intend to degrade songs, the software (tried it) seems to be legit on the EQ settings, you can have the sound file processed the way you want it before dragonfly_RED does final processing. mids usually are always amplified pretty hard on dragonfly_RED, the brightness is very high on mids in other words, so turn down middle bands on rock music and strong vocals, for example.
 the VLC EQ-preset, "soft-rock", seems to favor the dragonfly_RED, on cleanest and richest sound based on what I'm hearing on different kinds of music, with "compressor" and "spatializer" turned OFF.

 try jitterbug to cleanse the USB port distortion(s) or bad ground-loops (disconnect laptop from power source and all other USB peripherals), or try a different set of headphones, because like mentioned earlier before, the hidden processor (which will boost the frequencies/GAIN by default for example) on headphones will sometimes throw out "good sound" and force enhancements which may include resetting pre-configured EQ paths and restructuring final listening experience. sometimes the combination of motherboard and dragonfly_RED software drivers may not match up very well, either. and just because it's a FLAC file, doesn't mean the recording methods were setup the way we all wanted to hear it. try using a different piece of software with the same FLAC file, and then listen to it on converted format in MP3_320k to see if the problem can be reproduced. one thing to note, that i think is truly awesome, is that 'fast music' actually may sound a bit slower with the dragonfly_RED and the jitterbug combined, because the detail is more clear and the song is re-timed on final output!

 so in short, the data can be degraded, yes, but to answer it correctly, the data is being reconstructed from a digital source (supposedly) for analog reproduction, so if anything is lost or degraded, it is user listening experience of what sounds better or worst that must be your judgement after you know for sure the software-hardware combination pre-processiing before the data reaches the dragonfly_RED, as to make sure the data (song/sound) is actually at its highest integrity. hence, DAC, digital to analog converter.


----------



## coolcrew23

joeq70 said:


> I use my DragonFly Red as a DAC to feed my Jotunheim. Sounds terrific.




Mind if i ask how the settings would be? Do you max out the volume of source?


----------



## Anatidae

Am I right in saying that as long as you're using UAPP on Android the volume on the Red works perfectly?


----------



## psikey

Yes

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


----------



## Johnpdoe2

mx400 said:


> VLC creates a pre-process EQ into the dragonfly, and the dragonfly corrects the sound and reprocesses the data sent to your headphones. re-sampling doesn't always mean the sound is being created twice, it could be slang for the sound file being modified through a software engine before it reaches the destination of the soundcard, means it's not the flat 'most-original.' but keep in mind, the software needs permission from the operating system to utilize a method to transmit the data to the sound card.
> 
> .....


 

 Thanks a lot for the comprehensive response!


----------



## HiFiDJ

Anybody tried the Red/6p combo with Netflix and solved the volume issue? Any input is much appreciated!


----------



## joeq70

coolcrew23 said:


> Mind if i ask how the settings would be? Do you max out the volume of source?


 
 Yes, I force max volume always when using the DFR as a DAC only.


----------



## lg777

I've been reading some of this thread, it's too long to read the whole thing but ended up buying the Red.
  
 I use it with the CCK 3.0 and an iPhone SE.  Sounds really really good.
  
 But, sometimes when I pause Spotify, the unit won't reconnect so I have to plug out and back in.  I presume this isn't normal?


----------



## sejsel

lg777 said:


> I've been reading some of this thread, it's too long to read the whole thing but ended up buying the Red.
> 
> I use it with the CCK 3.0 and an iPhone SE.  Sounds really really good.
> 
> But, sometimes when I pause Spotify, the unit won't reconnect so I have to plug out and back in.  I presume this isn't normal?


 
  
 These type of issues (and questions about it ) are recurring in this thread. My instict is that, in general, these issues are (at least, if not always) software related (e.g. Spotify), or at the OS level (at the device in question) rather than having to do with the DFR / B itself.
  
 As a side note; from what I remember Spotify isn't really known for the high sq, downloading sound files from the web can often better sq than Spotify.


----------



## CluelessAudio

How is the DF Red compared to a Macbook Pro's dac/amp? I'm perfectly happy with my Mac's dac/amp but I guess I've never heard a DF Red so I don't know the difference but there is no where here in the UK where I can test it and take it back if I don't like it. From people I've spoken to several have said the difference in sound is subtle, and I'm not audiophile so I probably won't notice it. Is there anyone here who uses it with a Macbook Pro?


----------



## leaky74

cluelessaudio said:


> How is the DF Red compared to a Macbook Pro's dac/amp? I'm perfectly happy with my Mac's dac/amp but I guess I've never heard a DF Red so I don't know the difference but there is no where here in the UK where I can test it and take it back if I don't like it. From people I've spoken to several have said the difference in sound is subtle, and I'm not audiophile so I probably won't notice it. Is there anyone here who uses it with a Macbook Pro?




I would of thought most retailers will accept returns on the DF Red. Richer Sounds & Amazon for starters...


----------



## paulgc

Anyone know what happened to the Audioquest Beetle DAC? Announced 2016 CES and been "coming soon" ever since! http://www.audioquest.com/beetle/
  
 Looking forward to the MQA firmware update to be available.


----------



## CluelessAudio

leaky74 said:


> I would of thought most retailers will accept returns on the DF Red. Richer Sounds & Amazon for starters...




Amazon doesn't if the package is opened... right? Same for everywhere else I know


----------



## leaky74

I've returned opened goods to both Amazon & Richer Sounds


----------



## CluelessAudio

leaky74 said:


> I've returned opened goods to both Amazon & Richer Sounds


 
I have once but i made the item look brand new again  I'll have a look at their return policy and perhaps give it a go then.


----------



## wellers73

cluelessaudio said:


> How is the DF Red compared to a Macbook Pro's dac/amp? I'm perfectly happy with my Mac's dac/amp but I guess I've never heard a DF Red so I don't know the difference but there is no where here in the UK where I can test it and take it back if I don't like it. From people I've spoken to several have said the difference in sound is subtle, and I'm not audiophile so I probably won't notice it. Is there anyone here who uses it with a Macbook Pro?




I found it to be a rather dramatic improvement. To begin with, the DFR has significantly more output power than the MBP. Even with IEMs, I can hear the DFR making the music sound fuller, punchier, more visceral. Second, the Sabre chip in the DFR greatly improves detail, crispness, soundstage, instrument seperation - pretty much everything you want in your music. I think you'll notice a difference, but if you don't, you shouldn't have a hard time selling a DFR via head-fi classifieds.


----------



## Decommo

Has anyone tried DFB or DFR with highly sensitive IEMs such as Andromeda? Does it provide black background without noise when connected to laptop such as Macbook Pro?


----------



## CluelessAudio

wellers73 said:


> I found it to be a rather dramatic improvement. To begin with, the DFR has significantly more output power than the MBP. Even with IEMs, I can hear the DFR making the music sound fuller, punchier, more visceral. Second, the Sabre chip in the DFR greatly improves detail, crispness, soundstage, instrument seperation - pretty much everything you want in your music. I think you'll notice a difference, but if you don't, you shouldn't have a hard time selling a DFR via head-fi classifieds.




Sounds pretty good then. I have B&W P9s which are very easy to drive so I'm not sure if the difference would be quite as significant, but worth a go i suppose. Thanks for your comments.


----------



## squ1gs

Just thought I would share my method of "Stacking" my Dragonfly Red with my iPhone SE. This method should work for all portable devices.
  

  
 I purchased a small adhesive wallet from here (There are many makes, I just used this one as it advertised its spandex material and was fairly cheap).
  
 https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B019RT281S/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
  
 You can apply this to the back of your phone although I opted to use a thin case instead (any case will work):
  
 https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01DP77ZYS/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1
  

  
 And when its all together you get the following!


----------



## joeq70

squ1gs said:


> Just thought I would share my method of "Stacking" my Dragonfly Red with my iPhone SE. This method should work for all portable devices.
> 
> [COLOR=FF4400]
> [/COLOR]
> ...



Nice job. Looks good.


----------



## Mr Makarov

Wondering if I´m doing something wrong. Connecting DFB to my laptop the volume difference is not just big, is extreme (which I do not like). What I mean is that if normally just out of headphone jack of the laptop I would be pretty happy at 20-25% volume using SE846 (and no hiss at all), with the DFB I can hear music even at 0% (not joking, very low volume but still can hear it), at 5% it is very loud, 10% is unbearable. So the normal comfortable listening level I use is 2-3% (12-13% for Sony XBA-4). And there is audible hiss. SQ improvement is pretty good with IEMs but that problem with volume is a little bit annoying.


----------



## CluelessAudio

W





mr makarov said:


> Wondering if I´m doing something wrong. Connecting DFB to my laptop the volume difference is not just big, is extreme (which I do not like). What I mean is that if normally just out of headphone jack of the laptop I would be pretty happy at 20-25% volume using SE846 (and no hiss at all), with the DFB I can hear music even at 0% (not joking, very low volume but still can hear it), at 5% it is very loud, 10% is unbearable. So the normal comfortable listening level I use is 2-3% (12-13% for Sony XBA-4). And there is audible hiss. SQ improvement is pretty good with IEMs but that problem with volume is a little bit annoying.


 what laptop have you got?


----------



## Mr Makarov

cluelessaudio said:


> W
> what laptop have you got?


 

  Its an old Asus G74sx. Never had this problem with DF 1.2
 Will test it (DFB) later with other devices


----------



## stuck limo

squ1gs said:


> Just thought I would share my method of "Stacking" my Dragonfly Red with my iPhone SE. This method should work for all portable devices.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Wait, I'm sorry, I'm so confused on what's happening here. You have the adhesive wallet on the back, I get that. The cable comes from the phone into the Dragonfly....is the Dragonfly IN the wallet?


----------



## GoldenTooth

There is really something wrong to ky hearing lol. I am i the only one who find that my cheap $40 gigabyte motherboard realtek audio sounds better than dragonfly?

When i listen to dragonfly black (even after 24 hours burn) i feel audio is too bright,small sound stage, analatical with tones of details but too fatuiging and boring(no emotions or feelings)
Also less bass and mid bass than my default realteck audio even though it have more power for harder headphones.


When i listen to my built in realtek audio i feel like i am listening to a large sound system, with wider sound stage.
Also more mid bass and more realistic drums and vocals(gives joy with more emotions). But ofc less power than the dragonfly.

I made sure that no EQ or any effects are active on my pc. Just flat audio.

This is wierd really. Anyone with similar experience?


----------



## Herman

I recognize this and don't its an issue. Both On my macbook and iphone I have to set volume lower than10%. It also depens on the IEM. Volume with Final Heaven VI being lower than Shure SE215 in my case. DFR is an amp after all. I wouldn't worry too much about it if I were you.


----------



## squ1gs

stuck limo said:


> Wait, I'm sorry, I'm so confused on what's happening here. You have the adhesive wallet on the back, I get that. The cable comes from the phone into the Dragonfly....is the Dragonfly IN the wallet?




Yeah, it's all tucked into the wallet


----------



## Duxbury66

I’ve spent quite a bit of time over the past few days reading much of this thread as a guest, so thought I’d create an account to share my recent experiences with the DFB and DFR.
 Whilst I’ve been listening to music on the go all my life, it’s only in the past year or so that I’ve started to throw a little money at it. To cut a long story short, last spring I had an iPhone 6s with 110+GB of ALAC music and a pair of NAD HP-50 headphones that I was using on my daily train commute. So I started looking into how I could improve the quality of the sound I was listening to and get the most out of both source and headphones. As the DFB/DFR hadn’t been announced at that point I bought an HRT i-dSp (the Android version got a 5* review on What HiFi) and the Apple CCK USB 2 version. However, I soon returned the i-dSp as I kept hearing clicks and pops in the music. It was only after the return that I learnt this was actually because of the iPhone/CCK rather than the i-dSp.
 A short while later I was delighted to see the DFB/DFR announced as they would work with my iPhone unlike the DF V1.2, and I got my hands on the DFB last June. IMO the DFB provides a much more fuller and enjoyable sound than the iPhone’s internal DAC and I’ve been a very happy customer for the past 8 months or so. It has still suffered from the clicks and pops, but iOS updates do seem to have made them less frequent and on some commutes I haven’t heard any at all. About a month ago the CCK stopped working completely and the iPhone said it wasn’t compatible. A trip to my local Apple store got me a free replacement and I honestly think the clicks and pops are even less frequent now, although not gone completely.
 As is the way in this hobby, I’ve always had the little niggle at the back of my mind that I should have gone for the more expensive DFR instead. Especially after so many reviews said it was noticeably better than the DFB. So a week ago I gave into the devil on my shoulder and borrowed a DFR from my local HiFi store for the weekend. After letting it burn in a little last Saturday, I spent a couple of hours in a quiet room comparing it to my DFB on the Sunday morning. Much to my disappointment, my initial view was that I simply could not hear a difference between the two. As the day went on I decided to give it another go and spent another couple of hours listening again that evening. I think I did hear very subtle differences on the second occasion, but was not convinced it wasn’t just the placebo effect playing tricks. Whatever it was, on Monday I decided to go with my heart rather than my head and buy it (the fact that I got £29 off RRP in the January sale made the decision a little easier).
 So after a week using the DFR (and being very happy with it’s sound) I’ve done another comparison test today with the DFB. Here’s what I noted (this is my opinion using my iPhone 6s/standard Music app/NAD HP-50s listening to Pop/Rock, so may not be what you hear);

On about half the tracks I listened to I couldn’t hear any differences between the DFB and DFR.
On some tracks, the DFR did seem to have ever so slightly more defined and realistic bass notes (bass guitar/kick drums) which I preferred. Neither seemed to produce greater or lesser bass though as has been heard by other users.
On some tracks the DFR seemed to place the highs a tiny bit more forward than the DRB, in a good way. Symbols and the like seemed to be more prominent in the mix, where as using the DRB they were sometimes lost a touch behind the louder mids. I think this gave the DFR a sense of slightly more balance and greater detail on certain tracks.
Both DFB and DFR were able to power my headphones to far greater than required volume levels. With both at a nice listening volume level for a quiet room, the iPhone volume widget was at about 35% for the DFB and at about 55% for the DFR (needless to say I have to have it set louder when on the train). But when I took the headphones off and pushed the volume up to 100%, the DFR was noticeably louder than the DFB.
 So my conclusion is that I prefer the DFR, but it’s a very very close run thing. I’d suggest the DFB gives me 98% of what I get with the DFR for c.50% the price, and is the more logical choice of the two. But this isn’t a logical hobby and I’ve decided to keep the DFR and sell my DFB.
 @ squ1gs – I’m loving your idea for the adhesive wallet and ordered one within minutes of reading your post earlier. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 Richard


----------



## squ1gs

duxbury66 said:


> I’ve spent quite a bit of time over the past few days reading much of this thread as a guest, so thought I’d create an account to share my recent experiences with the DFB and DFR.
> 
> 
> Whilst I’ve been listening to music on the go all my life, it’s only in the past year or so that I’ve started to throw a little money at it. To cut a long story short, last spring I had an iPhone 6s with 110+GB of ALAC music and a pair of NAD HP-50 headphones that I was using on my daily train commute. So I started looking into how I could improve the quality of the sound I was listening to and get the most out of both source and headphones. As the DFB/DFR hadn’t been announced at that point I bought an HRT i-dSp (the Android version got a 5* review on What HiFi) and the Apple CCK USB 2 version. However, I soon returned the i-dSp as I kept hearing clicks and pops in the music. It was only after the return that I learnt this was actually because of the iPhone/CCK rather than the i-dSp.
> ...




Glad I could help, it works very well! I'm actually going to refine it further with a small right angled aux extender so that my iem cable isn't so squished. This shouldnt be a problem with right angled jacks.


----------



## CluelessAudio

Just got the DF Red. Can't notice a huge improvement in sound on my 2014 Macbook Pro, sounds ever so slightly clearer (i think, probably just imagining it). It does help the bass a tiny bit. Is it worth £170? Not a chance imo. I guess what I read about macs having decent dacs. Not sure whether to return it or swap for the DF Black.
  
 update: the best way i can describe it, is that it changes the sound a bit, not doesn't necessarily improve it.


----------



## Duxbury66

cluelessaudio said:


> Just got the DF Red. Can't notice a huge improvement in sound on my 2014 MacBook Pro



Give the DFR chance to bed in before you make a decision. I believe mine has got better as the week has gone on (or I've just got more used to its sound).


----------



## CluelessAudio

duxbury66 said:


> Give the DFR chance to bed in before you make a decision. I believe mine has got better as the week has gone on (or I've just got more used to its sound).


 

 I'll leave it on overnight this weekend. That's what i've been doing with my P9s. Maybe it doesn't suit rock/metal as much as other genres. But either way it will have to improve fourfold to make me keep it.


----------



## Duxbury66

cluelessaudio said:


> I'll leave it on overnight this weekend. That's what i've been doing with my P9s. Maybe it doesn't suit rock/metal as much as other genres. But either way it will have to improve fourfold to make me keep it.



Are you using lossless or compressed music files when testing?


----------



## CluelessAudio

duxbury66 said:


> Are you using lossless or compressed music files when testing?


 

 Both. I have spotify premium and have tidal on trial. I can't notice a difference between them without the DF Red, and the DF doesn't help me distinguish either. I guess I'm part deaf. It's the only explanation.


----------



## Duxbury66

cluelessaudio said:


> Both. I have spotify premium and have tidal on trial. I can't notice a difference between them without the DF Red, and the DF doesn't help me distinguish either. I guess I'm part deaf. It's the only explanation.


 

 ​Only thing I can suggest is ripping some songs from CD in ALAC just to remove the possibility that streaming rather than playing directly from the hard drive is playing a part. In theory it shouldn't. You've certainly got more than capable headphones to pick out any differences. If you can't hear a difference when swapping between them, perhaps listen using the DFR for a prolonged period and then go back to the Mac. If you don't miss the DFR after that then it probably is time to invest the £170 elsewhere.
  
 I think the main things I notice with both DFB and DFR over the iPhone's natural sound, is that the music is fuller and livelier, male vocals in particular are richer. It's not night and day different, but is enough for me to think it's worth it. Not heard a Mac though.


----------



## CluelessAudio

duxbury66 said:


> ​Only thing I can suggest is ripping some songs from CD in ALAC just to remove the possibility that streaming rather than playing directly from the hard drive is playing a part. In theory it shouldn't. You've certainly got more than capable headphones to pick out any differences. If you can't hear a difference when swapping between them, perhaps listen using the DFR for a prolonged period and then go back to the Mac. If you don't miss the DFR after that then it probably is time to invest the £170 elsewhere.
> 
> I think the main things I notice with both DFB and DFR over the iPhone's natural sound, is that the music is fuller and livelier, male vocals in particular are richer. It's not night and day different, but is enough for me to think it's worth it. Not heard a Mac though.




Macs supposedly have good dacs/amps, much better than windows computers anyway, and better than an iphones for sure. I'll let it burn it and see how it is. Perhaps I'd keep it if it was the black verison for £90, but not at £170


----------



## Duxbury66

One thing I omitted from my comparison post yesterday (I figured it was long enough) was my experiences with battery consumption using both DFs. In general I have never found this an issue with either. Compared to more intensive tasks such as making calls, surfing the web or sending music to a Bluetooth speaker the battery drain using the DFs is very minimal.
 However, just to test this I have run a little experiment this morning to see if there is a difference between the two. I played the same songs at the same volume level (35% for the DFB and 55% for the DFR) for an hour with the screen off but wifi still on. Both times the iPhone’s battery started at 100%. I should point out that my iPhone is a year old and the battery will have degraded since new (I fully expect to have to get it replaced within the next 12 months like I did for the iPhone 5 I had before it). Also the % drop is not perfect, I find that it drops slowly initially down to about 70% and then very quickly down to about 40%, and then goes more slowly again. I therefore expect I would have seen different results if I’d started the battery level at 70% both times.
 In summary, there was no noticeable difference in battery drain between the DFB and DFR, both reduced it from 100% to 97%, which isn’t that different to what I’d expect to see if the iPhone was just sat there idle for an hour. So based on my experiences, for anyone considering buying a DF but you are worried about battery consumption, don’t be.


----------



## BobNeil

First post. I have learned a lot from everyone (this thread and others here on Head-Fi) and it led me to a DFB purchase. Thanks!
  
 I tried to self-serve here and elsewhere but I'm not finding an answer.  Question: I just received the DFB today. On OS X, with the DFB selected as the Output, using Tidal desktop (with Exclusive, Force Volume, and Passthru MQA all selected) I can only adjust volume thru the Tidal app. Is there a setting configuration that would enable volume control via the MB Air itself?
  
 Many thanks.


----------



## sejsel

bobneil said:


> First post. I have learned a lot from everyone (this thread and others here on Head-Fi) and it led me to a DFB purchase. Thanks!
> 
> I tried to self-serve here and elsewhere but I'm not finding an answer.  Question: I just received the DFB today. On OS X, with the DFB selected as the Output, using Tidal desktop (with Exclusive, Force Volume, and Passthru MQA all selected) I can only adjust volume thru the Tidal app. Is there a setting configuration that would enable volume control via the MB Air itself?
> 
> Many thanks.


 
  
 This part is a bit unclear to me :  "(with Exclusive, Force Volume, and Passthru MQA all selected)" , so I reserve myself a bit there.…
  
 Passthru MQA could probably mean that you are essentially bypassing the OS volume control, but I am not certain on that...
  
 However, more to the point: use Spotlight on mac to open Audio MIDI Setup utility/app. Try to adjust the volume there.


----------



## BobNeil

Sorry for confusion. "Exclusive, Force Volume, and Passthru MQA" are selections w/in Tidal desktop app (Settings > Streaming > DFB > Clickwheel Settings). 
  
 With all 3 selected I'm UNABLE able to control volume thru Tidal or OS (MB Air). It's mega-loud. If i de-select "Force Volume" I can adjust volume thru Tidal app only. I can live with this, just a bit of a nuisance. Would strongly prefer adjusting thru OS.
  
 I followed AQ's instructions for Sound -and- Midi by selecting the DFB as the Output.


----------



## sejsel

To make things simple, could you just deselect all those options that you have chosen in Tidal desktop app, revert to Tidals defaults, and then follow the AQ instructions?
  
 If memory serves me well, AQ recommendation was that the volume setting at the app (whatever music app in desktop) should be at max or close) and then the Dragonfly output volume should be regulated by the OS volume control (as in Mac OS in this case)  ?
  
 My instict is (and I might be wrong, of course) that you have somehow overridden the OS volume controls by the combination of those options in the Tidal.
  
 I have not touched any of the options in Tidal desktop app, and (hence ? ) am able to use the OS X volume control to steer the Dragonfly output volume (decrease as well as increase) .


----------



## BobNeil

sejsel - That did it! MANY thanks!!
  
 I think my confusion was reading elsewhere re: how to adjust settings for DACs that are already (!) MQA-enabled (which, of course, we are waiting for).  In those use cases the advice I've seen more than once is "select all 3 w/in Tidal: Exclusive, Force Volume, and Passthru MQA".  Once MQA update is delivered I'll give those settings a try (and hope I wont somehow lose my ability to control volume thru OS).  For now, DFB is displaying magenta via Tidal Masters so....alll good.  Thanks!


----------



## stuck limo

I'm having the same volume issue some others are having. I just got the DF Black and I can only put the volume up to about 3 on my PC before I'm getting blown out by the volume. Is there a fix to this or is just the way it is? I don't have any such problem with my Geek Out 2A DAC.
  
 Also, on UAPP, does anyone on mobile use "Bit Perfect" which disables volume? Am I correct in thinking this function should NOT be used with headphones? How do you control the volume without blowing up your headphones with this option? Is it for plugging into a stereo?


----------



## CluelessAudio

Doing some final testing before I decide whether to get my DF Red or take it back. I've let it 'run in' for about 36 hours since I got it, and my P9s have been used for over 100 hours since I got them. I still can't tell if it makes the music sound better or it's the placebo effect. I'm not sure if it's down to rock/metal music being less affected (I have tried other genres and noticed almost no change as well), whether macbooks have decent dacs or B&W P9s don't need much to drive them. I'll test them for the next few hours but at the moment I think it's going back. After all I've read i'm quite disappointed.


----------



## JEspina456

Anyone hear any news about the MQA update for Red/Black?  Supposed to have been by the end of the month, and it's the 29th....


----------



## SpiderNhan

stuck limo said:


> I'm having the same volume issue some others are having. I just got the DF Black and I can only put the volume up to about 3 on my PC before I'm getting blown out by the volume. Is there a fix to this or is just the way it is? I don't have any such problem with my Geek Out 2A DAC.
> 
> Also, on UAPP, does anyone on mobile use "Bit Perfect" which disables volume? Am I correct in thinking this function should NOT be used with headphones? How do you control the volume without blowing up your headphones with this option? Is it for plugging into a stereo?



To use Bit Perfect, you also have to set Volume Control to Hardware Volume.


----------



## Depster

jespina456 said:


> Anyone hear any news about the MQA update for Red/Black?  Supposed to have been by the end of the month, and it's the 29th....


 

 I asked Audioquest this same question last Friday. This is their reply.
  
The software update, which will be available to download for free via the Desktop Manager app on our website: http://www.audioquest.com/dragonfly-series/#downloads will be available around the end of the month/early February.  If you registered your Dragonfly, you will receive an email when it's available.
 
Please note: you will need to use a suitable media player, such as Tidal or Audirvana Plus, to play MQA files.  This is because MQA requires a decoder and a renderer to play a file.  The renderer is built into the Dragonfly and the decoder is built into the media player's software.  Once updated, your Dragonfly will glow a beautiful shade of blue to let you know you're playing an MQA file.


----------



## MartynB85

Would i see much of an improvement using this with my iPhone 7 over the standard lightning to 3.5mm adapter?


----------



## barber76

Hi everyone!
 I recently purchased DF black 1.5, and while using it with my windows laptop doesn't pose any problems - foobar2000 set up to push via wasapi, player volume on max, and system volume representing DF volume - I'm frustrated when trying to use it with my Android 7 phone (LG Nexus 5x). It works right out of the box, but two things confuse me a lot:
 1). Whatever I play, DF is always lights as magenta. Does it mean that I'm not getting a real as-is bitstreaming, and Android does some processing of its own? I found multiple mention of same symptom on this site, but didn't find any explanation whether it's Ok, and, if not, what is a workaround.
 2). DF is not only a DAC, but also an amplifier. But I can't figure out how do I manage the amplification when playing via phone. I don't have any issues listening on 16/32 Ohm headphones, just using phone volume button, But when I tried listening for 80 Ohm ones, I felt that I do not getting enough volume even with volume at the phone menu is on max. Should I use some settings in a player app? Default Google music player does not have any extra settings. Foobar2000 for Android has some settings for ReplayGain, which can boost a volume, but I have no idea what is it and what is the correct way of controlling DF amplification.
  
 Thanks!


----------



## lifeisbeautiful

Any thoughts on the dragonflys paired with B&O H6 gen 2? The B&O H6s are already fairly easy to drive, with MacBook Pro or iPhone. If I use a DF, what difference would I hear?


----------



## SpiderNhan

barber76 said:


> Hi everyone!
> I recently purchased DF black 1.5, and while using it with my windows laptop doesn't pose any problems - foobar2000 set up to push via wasapi, player volume on max, and system volume representing DF volume - I'm frustrated when trying to use it with my Android 7 phone (LG Nexus 5x). It works right out of the box, but two things confuse me a lot:
> 1). Whatever I play, DF is always lights as magenta. Does it mean that I'm not getting a real as-is bitstreaming, and Android does some processing of its own? I found multiple mention of same symptom on this site, but didn't find any explanation whether it's Ok, and, if not, what is a workaround.
> 2). DF is not only a DAC, but also an amplifier. But I can't figure out how do I manage the amplification when playing via phone. I don't have any issues listening on 16/32 Ohm headphones, just using phone volume button, But when I tried listening for 80 Ohm ones, I felt that I do not getting enough volume even with volume at the phone menu is on max. Should I use some settings in a player app? Default Google music player does not have any extra settings. Foobar2000 for Android has some settings for ReplayGain, which can boost a volume, but I have no idea what is it and what is the correct way of controlling DF amplification.
> ...


 
 Magenta on Android means that Android is processing the signal and upsampling before it sends the data to the Dragonfly. This is a common problem on Android and the only way to get "bit-perfect" sound sent to the Dragonfly is through USB Audio Player Pro.


----------



## stuck limo

When I am using UAPP, is there a way to make it so the volume is not so overbearing at lower volumes. I have the "steps" set at 100 but even at like 4 or 5, I'm nearing the threshold of hearing pain.


----------



## Devodonaldson

stuck limo said:


> When I am using UAPP, is there a way to make it so the volume is not so overbearing at lower volumes. I have the "steps" set at 100 but even at like 4 or 5, I'm nearing the threshold of hearing pain.



The app has both software and hardware volume.set the volume as software. Then you can hit the menu button and adjust hardware volume, and use the phone buttons to adjust the player volume. It can get super quiet using the two combined volume meters


----------



## lifeisbeautiful

Anyone compared this to the DAC in MacBook Pro?


----------



## CluelessAudio

lifeisbeautiful said:


> Anyone compared this to the DAC in MacBook Pro?




Yes, there is no difference with B&W P9s and my 2014 Macbook Pro. I tried spotify and tidal, no difference to either. I've packed the DF Red up and will be returning it today. I guess the mac has a good built in dac and amp. Quite disappointed after all I've read but nevermind.


----------



## nealh

cluelessaudio said:


> Yes, there is no difference with B&W P9s and my 2014 Macbook Pro. I tried spotify and tidal, no difference to either. I've packed the DF Red up and will be returning it today. I guess the mac has a good built in dac and amp. Quite disappointed after all I've read but nevermind.



 I'm always sad to hear when someone does not appreciate the changes they expected for an audio purchase.
But unfortunately that's the way our ears and sound perception is. I am not one who can appreciate a lot of subtle differences. I can appreciate your comments.

 I am considering getting a dragonfly black as I hope that it will provide a little improvement in details, soundstage and possibly a little better volume control at the low-end with my iPhone 7 and MacBook. I have not made the jump yet as I'm waiting on some other purchases.

Please do look to be excellent portable solutions


----------



## pofdstudios

For me the difference between using the Dragonfly Red and not using it is night and day. It no longer sounds like I'm listening to the music through a closed door. With my windows 10 laptop using JRiver it works flawlessly but of course with the iPhone 7+ And iTunes I'm limited to 48000 Hz but with the Dragonfly Red it still sounds better than that Crappy Apple DAC converter dongle. Please note that it is important to READ your instruction booklet especially the " Why is format important" section. Also make sure to set the sampling rate and computer up properly first and you can find those settings in your instruction booklet. One thing that is kind of bizarre is that Audioquest makes reference to their Dragonfly App but as of yet the link only goes to a "coming soon" page with a message that updates are coming soon.


----------



## CluelessAudio

pofdstudios said:


> For me the difference between using the Dragonfly Red and not using it is night and day. It no longer sounds like I'm listening to the music through a closed door. With my windows 10 laptop using JRiver it works flawlessly but of course with the iPhone 7+ And iTunes I'm limited to 48000 Hz but with the Dragonfly Red it still sounds better than that Crappy Apple DAC converter dongle. Please note that it is important to READ your instruction booklet especially the " Why is format important" section. Also make sure to set the sampling rate and computer up properly first and you can find those settings in your instruction booklet. One thing that is kind of bizarre is that Audioquest makes reference to their Dragonfly App but as of yet the link only goes to a "coming soon" page with a message that updates are coming soon.



Macs unsurprisingly have better dac/amps than a windows laptop. Particularly as they are geared as media creation devices. The difference as a result will be bigger for a windows laptop.


----------



## Citsur86

jespina456 said:


> Anyone hear any news about the MQA update for Red/Black?  Supposed to have been by the end of the month, and it's the 29th....


 
 Right there with ya.  I'm hoping it drops today or tomorrow!


----------



## LazerBear

martynb85 said:


> Would i see much of an improvement using this with my iPhone 7 over the standard lightning to 3.5mm adapter?


 
  
 Short answer: it'd depend on your headphones, format and choice of music, and ears. If you can expand a bit on what you are currently using, we can give you some better tailored answers.


----------



## CluelessAudio

lazerbear said:


> Short answer: it'd depend on your headphones, format and choice of music, and ears. If you can expand a bit on what you are currently using, we can give you some better tailored answers.


 

 It definitely should improve the audio from a phone as the dac/amp will be average to poor, but from my mac, it made no difference. I also think rock/metal improves very little from dacs and high end headphones. Or maybe just ignore everything as i'm deaf....  I'd definitely try it, you can always take it back.


----------



## wellers73

cluelessaudio said:


> Yes, there is no difference with B&W P9s and my 2014 Macbook Pro. I tried spotify and tidal, no difference to either. I've packed the DF Red up and will be returning it today. I guess the mac has a good built in dac and amp. Quite disappointed after all I've read but nevermind.




Sorry to hear that you were disappointed. I feel especially bad because I was one of the guys who had really spoken positively about the differences specifically on a MacBook. I do still believe that I hear a noticeable difference, but I should have mentioned that I listen mostly to jazz, classical, and classic prog rock. Perhaps those genres are more sensitive to DAC differences. Anyway, sorry if I steered you wrong!


----------



## Duxbury66

So I've just seen the Apple CCK USB 3 or the first time in the flesh, wow that thing is massive!

I had planned to buy it having seen the posts in this thread about it fixing the pops and clicks issue and also Audioquest's insert in my DFR box stating that you get better SQ using it. The nice lady in the Apple Store was even going to take off the price of my USB 2 version and only charge me the difference after I explained why I was interested in the USB 3 version, but when I saw it's size I decided I can live with the occasional pops and clicks!!!


----------



## MartynB85

lazerbear said:


> Short answer: it'd depend on your headphones, format and choice of music, and ears. If you can expand a bit on what you are currently using, we can give you some better tailored answers.




I would mostly be using my RHA T20's, using Tidal on my iPhone 7. Listen to most genres, alot of movie/tv soundtracks lately. May use it with my Elears when I don't want my Mojo in my pocket.


----------



## CluelessAudio

wellers73 said:


> Sorry to hear that you were disappointed. I feel especially bad because I was one of the guys who had really spoken positively about the differences specifically on a MacBook. I do still believe that I hear a noticeable difference, but I should have mentioned that I listen mostly to jazz, classical, and classic prog rock. Perhaps those genres are more sensitive to DAC differences. Anyway, sorry if I steered you wrong!


 
Don't worry! It's not your fault I'm hard of hearing  I'll keep an eye out for any other dacs by Audioquest in the future, they can only get better, i hope.


----------



## Slaphead

martynb85 said:


> I would mostly be using my RHA T20's, using Tidal on my iPhone 7. Listen to most genres, alot of movie/tv soundtracks lately. May use it with my Elears when I don't want my Mojo in my pocket.




The T20s are driven perfectly fine by the iPhone itself, and that headphone adapter that comes with the iPhone 7 is already pretty good by all accounts. One thing you need to remember is that if you have the T20i variant then the inline controls will no longer work, and nor will you be able take calls using the T20's microphone.

IMO the main reason for buying a Dragonfly, or something like it, is to enable the use of relatively difficult to drive headphones with a laptop or mobile device. If the headphones that you're currently using are already driven well by your existing source then really the only difference is likely to be a slight change in tonal presentation, which you may or may not like.

IME The Dragonfly, really comes into it's own with headphones that need more oomph than the inbuilt headphone port can supply. The difference between the Dragonfly and my iPods built in headphone port is night and day with my Beyerdynamic DT1770 Pros, with the Dragonfly producing a far more dynamic and detailed presentation, whereas the output from the iPod is pretty lifeless. With other headphones that the iPod already drives fine then there's very little difference.

I suppose a general rule of thumb is that if you need to push the volume level of the source device beyond 75% to get an adequate listening volume then you should consider a Dragonfly. If, on the other hand, you already get a perfectly listenable volume at 50% - 75%, or less then the Dragonfly is unlikely to make a night and day difference.

It's not just about volume though, it's also to do with the dynamics. Powering a headphone that needs a high volume setting from the source is likely to be lacking in dynamics and will likely sound flat and lifeless in it's general presentation, and this is where the Dragonfly (or any external DAC/Amp) comes in. With more power on tap it's able to do a better job of controlling the headphones drivers at equivalent perceivable volumes leading to a more dynamic presentation.

I do think that people really need to consider exactly why they need an external DAC/Amp, because it may not be the magic bullet that you're looking for depending on your headphones. In fact I'd say if the headphones you have are already driven fine by your DAP, then it's likely that looking into upgrading your headphones will bring more to the table than an external DAC/Amp will ever do.


----------



## stuck limo

OK, I finally got a Dragonfly Black for portable use with the S7. I am ecstatic to report that the DFB works with UAPP, Spotify, and Poweramp Alpha 703. I am using it right now with ATH-M40x headphones on Spotify. I am not ecstatic to report that the DFB is extremely thin, metallic sounding, and tinny. I bought this used, so I don't know the amount of burn in time. I'll run this all day tomorrow and hopefully that fixes it.
  
 Also, on the laptop issue with the volume being too loud at Level 2....anyone got any workarounds or fixes for this? Literally at Level 3 it's bordering on too loud. On Level 4 it's essentially there. I don't have this issue with the Geek Out 2A DAC.


----------



## nealh

slaphead said:


> The T20s are driven perfectly fine by the iPhone itself, and that headphone adapter that comes with the iPhone 7 is already pretty good by all accounts. One thing you need to remember is that if you have the T20i variant then the inline controls will no longer work, and nor will you be able take calls using the T20's microphone.
> 
> IMO the main reason for buying a Dragonfly, or something like it, is to enable the use of relatively difficult to drive headphones with a laptop or mobile device. If the headphones that you're currently using are already driven well by your existing source then really the only difference is likely to be a slight change in tonal presentation, which you may or may not like.
> 
> ...




 For me the purchase of an amp/DAC would be to help drive at lower volumes more detail clarity and sound stage. I do not like listening a high volumes so I want to try to maximize My low-volume listening experience. 

Do you think the dragonfly black would be able to do this? Or even the red?
Thank you


----------



## SpiderNhan

nealh said:


> For me the purchase of an amp/DAC would be to help drive at lower volumes more detail clarity and sound stage. I do not like listening a high volumes so I want to try to maximize My low-volume listening experience.
> 
> Do you think the dragonfly black would be able to do this? Or even the red?
> Thank you



I definitely notice much more detail and clarity from the Dragonfly Red over my Samsung Galaxy Note, and a little less so for my Galaxy S6 Active. For sensitive headphones and IEMs the low output impedance of the Dragonfly will help with lowering the noise floor which will help increase details as well.

I should note that most of my headphones lean toward warmer, darker sounds and the brightness and clarity of the Dragonfly's Sabre DAC melds well with my gear.


----------



## LazerBear

slaphead said:


> The T20s are driven perfectly fine by the iPhone itself, and that headphone adapter that comes with the iPhone 7 is already pretty good by all accounts. One thing you need to remember is that if you have the T20i variant then the inline controls will no longer work, and nor will you be able take calls using the T20's microphone.
> 
> IMO the main reason for buying a Dragonfly, or something like it, is to enable the use of relatively difficult to drive headphones with a laptop or mobile device. If the headphones that you're currently using are already driven well by your existing source then really the only difference is likely to be a slight change in tonal presentation, which you may or may not like.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Well said, and especially true for portable dac/amp solutions, as outdoors with the noise and all it is even harder to discern a difference. Couple that with less detailed recordings, or lower res files, and much of the improvement is lost.
  
 As a little counterpoint, however, in my experience it's very easy to get lost in the analytical side of listening after purchasing a new piece of audio gear, which usually results in mixed feelings and confusion: the improvements one expected don't seem to be there etc. etc. After a couple of weeks of usage, with the paranoia settled, going back to the previous setup usually results in a much more audible difference.


----------



## Duncan

Got to say that the DFR and SoundMagic E80 (connected to my phone, using UAPP) gives me - using the over cliched percentages, about 95% of what I want out of my music on the move, but - with a 20% bonus for form factor...

I bounce around more than Tigger does, when it comes to setups and so forth, but - right now, the mini combination I have here is a real winner


----------



## ronrontan

Hi, I am using LG V20 which comes with the ES9218 DAC from ESS. While waiting for the Android-Audioquest fix, this is an excellent,no, marvelous solution. Saves me from carrying around my pouch w DFR and USB-C Connectors.
Cheers, Ronny Tan


----------



## Duncan

Maybe I'm just lucky, but I have no problem at all with my DFR, but all I use is UAPP, so maybe they've just licked it


----------



## psikey

Have good news on the DFR (and DFB). I asked Audioquest a few questions and just had reply below:
  
  
  
 Dear Andrew,
  
 The software update, which will be available to download for free via the Desktop Manager app on our website: http://www.audioquest.com/dragonfly-series/#downloads will be available in a week or so.  This will update both the volume issue and MQA.  If you registered your Dragonfly, you will receive an email when it's available.
  
 Please note: you will need to use a suitable media player, such as Tidal or Audirvana Plus, to play MQA files.  This is because MQA requires a decoder and a renderer to play a file.  The renderer is built into the Dragonfly and the decoder is built into the media player's software.  Once updated, your Dragonfly will glow a beautiful shade of blue to let you know you're playing an MQA file.  MQA files are played in the same resolution as they were recorded in.
  
 Best regards,


----------



## Duncan

Interesting... Not that I have access to any MQA sources, but good to see that it can be "added" to the DFs


----------



## Citsur86

psikey said:


> Have good news on the DFR (and DFB). I asked Audioquest a few questions and just had reply below:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Awesome thanks for sharing - although they are missing their end of January date!  We waited this long, what's another week I guess?  Is it weird that I'm excited for the blue glow?  No more having to check Tidal for Masters text.


----------



## W4RW0LF47

As long is only a week. I hope they release the update! 

Saludos

Enviado desde mi Nexus 6 mediante Tapatalk


----------



## shootertwist

I know there's no definite answer for now since its not yet available, but in theory if mqa is added to our dragonfly red/black and tidal's mobile app gets updated to also allow mqa, will the iphone be able to play those mqa albums via tidal and feed it directly to the dragonfly? Hope its possible  i think via android uapp its possible since they have tidal integration, i wonder if the iphone can do the same


----------



## JEspina456

psikey said:


> Have good news on the DFR (and DFB). I asked Audioquest a few questions and just had reply below:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Yes!!  I was having a crappy day at work and this brought a little brightness to my day!  Now I have to decide if I want to invest in Tidal or Audinirvana Plus....Opinions?


----------



## Onny Izwan

Guys - I just got the DragonFly Red. I am delighted to report that it sounds deliciously good. Better than the Mojo, I dare say because, IMO, the Mojo's strengths are 1) Case design 2) Timing 3) Detail retrieval. I had the DF Black for a week (of intense burn in and listening) and I can say that it does not have the same sound as the Red. The Red's sound is high-end. Even and balanced. Musical. Analogue. Detailed. Dynamic as hell. Unbelievable stuff I tell ya. Unbelievable that they packed all that goodness in a tiny enclosure. Kudos to Audioquest. BTW, any of you own a Sony XBA-Z5, get the Red. It is the end game. You will have reached the height of high-end audio pleasure.


----------



## stuck limo

onny izwan said:


> Guys - I just got the DragonFly Red. I am delighted to report that it sounds deliciously good. Better than the Mojo, I dare say because, IMO, the Mojo's strengths are 1) Case design 2) Timing 3) Detail retrieval. I had the DF Black for a week (of intense burn in and listening) and I can say that it does not have the same sound as the Red. The Red's sound is high-end. Even and balanced. Musical. Analogue. Detailed. Dynamic as hell. Unbelievable stuff I tell ya. Unbelievable that they packed all that goodness in a tiny enclosure. Kudos to Audioquest. BTW, any of you own a Sony XBA-Z5, get the Red. It is the end game. You will have reached the height of high-end audio pleasure.


 
  
 How is the Black compared to the Red? I'm underwhelmed by the Black so far.


----------



## Onny Izwan

Half the price of the Red, the Black is a bargain because it sounds exciting and is well made. Exciting while keeping all of the essential bits like soundstage, bass response (expressive and big, if a little distant compared to the Red) and detail intact. It in itself is a hifi miracle. Both AQ products are worthy of our money. I love the Black so much that I am keeping it even when I listen to the Red (on my iPhone 6s) most of the time. The Black's edge is its vocal inflections, better than the Red by a hair.


----------



## GoldenTooth

onny izwan said:


> Half the price of the Red, the Black is a bargain because it sounds exciting and is well made. Exciting while keeping all of the essential bits like soundstage, bass response (expressive and big, if a little distant compared to the Red) and detail intact. It in itself is a hifi miracle. Both AQ products are worthy of our money. I love the Black so much that I am keeping it even when I listen to the Red (on my iPhone 6s) most of the time. The Black's edge is its vocal inflections, better than the Red by a hair.




Funny , since i got my black tell now i keep A/B test with my onboard realtek default audio on my cheap PC and aleays find that soundstage,bass and dynamics are way better than DF :/ as if i am listinng to a large studio sound system (i made sure no any eq or effects) . Strange really


----------



## Onny Izwan

goldentooth said:


> Funny , since i got my black tell now i keep A/B test with my onboard realtek default audio on my cheap PC and aleays find that soundstage,bass and dynamics are way better than DF :/ as if i am listinng to a large studio sound system (i made sure no any eq or effects) . Strange really


 
I guess a DAC's quality is only as good as the quality of the speakers producing the sound. Have u listened to the Sony XBA-Z5? They are extraordinarily good. Paired with the DragonFlys, they will bring you to aural nirvana


----------



## Cann3dh33t

I pair the DFRed with my Sony XBA-A3's


----------



## psikey

Will stick with my SE846's which sound amazing with anything really. I've gone back to DFR from Mojo purely for ease of use/portability coupled with great SQ.
  

  
 Once my USB OTG 180 degree connector arrives I will likely have it permanently connected to my Z5 Compact as dedicated music player rather than swapping S7 between cases.


----------



## pkcpga

depster said:


> I asked Audioquest this same question last Friday. This is their reply.
> 
> [COLOR=222222]The software update, which will be available to download for free via the Desktop Manager app on our website: [COLOR=1155CC][COLOR=0000FF]http://www.audioquest.com/dragonfly-series/#downloads[/COLOR][/COLOR] will be available around the end of the month/early February.  If you registered your Dragonfly, you will receive an email when it's available.[/COLOR]
> 
> [COLOR=222222]Please note: you will need to use a suitable media player, such as Tidal or Audirvana Plus, to play MQA files.  This is because MQA requires a decoder and a renderer to play a file.  The renderer is built into the Dragonfly and the decoder is built into the media player's software.  Once updated, your Dragonfly will glow a beautiful shade of blue to let you know you're playing an MQA file.[/COLOR]




That kind of stinks so the DF will not play MQA songs that you already purchased, only ones that are partially opened by software, so it's not a true MQA DAC than.


----------



## GoldenTooth

onny izwan said:


> I guess a DAC's quality is only as good as the quality of the speakers producing the sound. Have u listened to the Sony XBA-Z5? They are extraordinarily good. Paired with the DragonFlys, they will bring you to aural nirvana




Since i am using the same headphones (sennhieser HD451) on both to compare A/B then then DF should sound better right? But its not sadly i feel with DF that audio is too bright with tons of details but fatiguing and not entertaining or musical than my deault cheap realtek built in audio which in contradiction to the DF , the realtek audio have more bass more sound stage even if less details and less power but more musical and energetic lmao. 
Maybe its me or my DF unit is defective :/


----------



## Onny Izwan

iPhone 6s, Sony XBA-Z5 (+ MUC-M12SM2) , AudioQuest Jitterbug, AudioQuest DragonFly Red


----------



## shotclock

I just got DFR,uapp, otg cable for s7edge to drive the low quality sound levels and it sounds great now. 
Problem when receiving calls or notification alerts I get distortion from the phones speaker. If I disconnect the DFR it goes back to normal alerts and ringtone.


----------



## CluelessAudio

onny izwan said:


> Guys - I just got the DragonFly Red. I am delighted to report that it sounds deliciously good. Better than the Mojo, I dare say because, IMO, the Mojo's strengths are 1) Case design 2) Timing 3) Detail retrieval. I had the DF Black for a week (of intense burn in and listening) and I can say that it does not have the same sound as the Red. The Red's sound is high-end. Even and balanced. Musical. Analogue. Detailed. Dynamic as hell. Unbelievable stuff I tell ya. Unbelievable that they packed all that goodness in a tiny enclosure. Kudos to Audioquest. BTW, any of you own a Sony XBA-Z5, get the Red. It is the end game. You will have reached the height of high-end audio pleasure.


 If the red is miles better, and to me makes zero difference with B&W P9s on a MacBook Pro, what does the black sound like? Might even be worse than the macs dac/amp


----------



## Onny Izwan

In that case, all I can say is "one man's meat is another man's poison"


----------



## Duncan

psikey said:


> Will stick with my SE846's which sound amazing with anything really. I've gone back to DFR from Mojo purely for ease of use/portability coupled with great SQ.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Agreed, re practicality of DFR vs Mojo 

As an aside, can you link me to the OTG adapter you're waiting for? I keep snagging mine, so would be good to have a neater / tidier solution... Thanks


----------



## psikey

duncan said:


> Agreed, re practicality of DFR vs Mojo
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Not sure if its going to be any good but intend to Velcro DFR to back of my Z5 compact which should make up the gap size & keep secure. This one is the right direction. May be too big a gap but worth a try seeing as so cheap. The cable I already use above was only about £3 anyway.
  
  

  

  
 On UK Amazon:  https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01LEX5XTE/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


----------



## pofdstudios

This is the way I did mine on my iPhone with some Velcro


----------



## cyclops214

pofdstudios said:


> This is the way I did mine on my iPhone with some Velcro


 
 I did the same thing with my dragonfly read and iPhone 7+


----------



## snip3r77

The more portable ccu would be more compact ??


----------



## birdman

Any Nexus 5 users here with DF? My DFB will be arriving soon, please let me know if there's anything I need to be aware of. I've ordered the dragontail and know about UAPP, anything else for N5?  Thanks.


----------



## AlanU

In audio it's all about matching. I found my Denon MM400's sounded thin and lacked substance with the DFR. There was not a substantial difference between my iphone6+ and DFR.
  
 I'm torn at this moment as I'm contemplating on purchasing a different amp all together or simply buy another HP with a different sound signature all together.
  
 I find it strange that there is little following for the Peachtree shift. The SQ from that amplifier matched with my iphone 6+ was extremely smooth and musical. With less efficient headphones like the Denon mm400 the peachtree was extremely engaging.
  
 I'll admit I'm having a wonderful time testing new HP toys.....


----------



## Duncan

Spoiler






psikey said:


> Not sure if its going to be any good but intend to Velcro DFR to back of my Z5 compact which should make up the gap size & keep secure. This one is the right direction. May be too big a gap but worth a try seeing as so cheap. The cable I already use above was only about £3 anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





thanks! 

Ordered one, which may will bring my Z5 Premium out of retirement!


----------



## fester1986

I am newbie here, i had DFR 8months and realy can't wait for update to fix volume, because i have pluged in Nvidia Shield and output conected directly to amp and even on max volume it's so low. When i play trough UAPP everything works fine. But i have another question, it`s there any chance to fix sample rate or chose the right one when i play trough android system only? When i play Youtube or Movies, android os set DFR to max sample rate. I just read maybe its possible with rooting device(but i worry about warranty) and change the some system file.

Thank's for answers and sorry for my english


----------



## west0ne

fester1986 said:


> I am newbie here, i had DFR 8months and realy can't wait for update to fix volume, because i have pluged in Nvidia Shield and output conected directly to amp and even on max volume it's so low. When i play trough UAPP everything works fine. But i have another question, it`s there any chance to fix sample rate or chose the right one when i play trough android system only? When i play Youtube or Movies, android os set DFR to max sample rate. I just read maybe its possible with rooting device(but i worry about warranty) and change the some system file.
> 
> Thank's for answers and sorry for my english




Audio played through the Android system will be resampled. The only way to change this is to use an app such as UAPP which bypasses system audio or to change the audio config files which require root, even then it isn't bit perfect playback.


----------



## paulgc

Well maybe next week for the MQA firmware update! Just hope it doesn't take as long to come out as the Audioquest Beetle DAC. Shown at CES 2016. And still "Coming Soon" http://www.audioquest.com/beetle/ a year later??? Audioquest, are there any USB C cables coming out or just plan to market the adapter? http://www.audioquest.com/usb-optical-adaptors/usb-a-to-c-adaptor


----------



## Duncan

To prove that I'm still using my DFR, the LG DAC has been relegated in favor of a case (good job too, dropped this phone twice in the past two days!) 

As much as I've ordered the USB adapter mentioned a few posts back, wish there was an equivalent for USB C...


----------



## hornytoad

I have both the Mojo and the Dragonfly Red and I prefer the Dragonfly Red, particularly for travel. 
  
 The Mojo is more musical but I just think the Red is very close and the Mojo will stay in one of my desktop setups.


----------



## MartynB85

hornytoad said:


> I have both the Mojo and the Dragonfly Red and I prefer the Dragonfly Red, particularly for travel.
> 
> The Mojo is more musical but I just think the Red is very close and the Mojo will stay in one of my desktop setups.


 
  
 Is the DF far behind the Mojo? I find the Mojo a bit big to carry around in my pocket, and was considering a DF. Hate the cables for the Mojo too, I either get a DF or splash out on Poly.


----------



## hornytoad

I think the Mojo is just slightly better than the Dragonfly Red. 
  
 For the money, the Red is the better value. I do wish to Red had stronger amplification thus I would recommend 
 earphones that are easy to drive as opposed to Sennheisers,etc. 
  
 If you have hard to drive headphones I would go with Mojo. 
  
 I am using Shure 846 earphones with the Red and it is a perfect match.


----------



## MartynB85

I have a Mojo already but tend to keep it on my desk. Would possibly get a DF for using with my phone while i'm about, along with IEMS.


----------



## Duncan

martynb85 said:


> I have a Mojo already but tend to keep it on my desk. Would possibly get a DF for using with my phone while i'm about, along with IEMS.


I've got both, and am happier with the DFR for out and about (form factor and no RFI being bonuses), but as others have said, you do lose a bit of musicality, then again for most on the road uses, this probably won't be noticed....

Oh, if you have a large hi-res library,, consider that the DFs cap out at 24/96.


----------



## shootthemoon18

Looking at the efforts people go to incorporate DF with their phone, I can truly say that everyone in this thread is a true audiophile! I'm currently using the lighting adapter with my phone and it already annoys me a little bit. 

 Just out of curiosity, anyone here has tried pairing DFR with Elear?


----------



## canali

hornytoad said:


> I have both the Mojo and the Dragonfly Red and I prefer the Dragonfly Red, particularly for travel.
> 
> The Mojo is more musical but I just think the Red is very close and the Mojo will stay in one of my desktop setups.




Nice to mix it up with both, I agree. Love the form factor of df red.


----------



## kfarndog

martynb85 said:


> I have a Mojo already but tend to keep it on my desk. Would possibly get a DF for using with my phone while i'm about, along with IEMS.


 
 I had a Mojo and moved it along. Kept the DFR for the quality, form factor and portability.


----------



## stuck limo

shootthemoon18 said:


> Looking at the efforts people go to incorporate DF with their phone, I can truly say that everyone in this thread is a true audiophile!


 
 Here is mine. I have the 3M Dual Lock tape on the phone and the DAC and it holds it very well together! The sound has now filled out and become more natural sounding and thicker, unlike when I first had it the first 24 hours where it was thin, metallic and tinny sounding. I'm MUCH happier with the sound now. $85 for a portable DAC for my phone ain't a bad deal at all.
  
 Now, I do have a question: Is there a way to place phone call audio through the Dragonfly or not? I was boppin' along in the store tonight with my Samsung S7 + Dragonfly + V-Moda M-100s and my friend called. I had to physically take off my cans and put my ear up next to the phone because the audio would not come through the DAC.


----------



## Devodonaldson

stuck limo said:


> Here is mine. I have the 3M Dual Lock tape on the phone and the DAC and it holds it very well together! The sound has now filled out and become more natural sounding and thicker, unlike when I first had it the first 24 hours where it was thin, metallic and tinny sounding. I'm MUCH happier with the sound now. $85 for a portable DAC for my phone ain't a bad deal at all.
> 
> Now, I do have a question: Is there a way to place phone call audio through the Dragonfly or not? I was boppin' along in the store tonight with my Samsung S7 + Dragonfly + V-Moda M-100s and my friend called. I had to physically take off my cans and put my ear up next to the phone because the audio would not come through the DAC.



No you can't talk through the dac. Its a one way device. However all you have to do is disconnect the cable from your dragonfly into the 3.5mm jack on the phone. And everything will work as normal. After the conversation simply plug the cable back into the decided and get back to bobbing along


----------



## stuck limo

devodonaldson said:


> No you can't talk through the dac. Its a one way device. However all you have to do is disconnect the cable from your dragonfly into the 3.5mm jack on the phone. And everything will work as normal. After the conversation simply plug the cable back into the decided and get back to bobbing along


 
  
 I wasn't trying to talk INTO the DAC, I wanted the audio from the friend on the phone call to come into the DAC into my headphones, then my voice to go through the microphone, but I guess that's not a thing with the DAC connected.


----------



## Devodonaldson

stuck limo said:


> I wasn't trying to talk INTO the DAC, I wanted the audio from the friend on the phone call to come into the DAC into my headphones, then my voice to go through the speaker, but I guess that's not a thing with the DAC connected.


 Yeah, no that's not a thing, I'm pretty sure. When audio is routed through USB, I don't believe the internal mic works. If I remember correctly, normal speakerphone won't work correctly either, but my headset pull method is the WORST thing. At least you don't have to pull the dac. I'm spoiled. I actually have neckband Bluetooth headphones. I use them for music if I only have a few minutes but they are there to serve the purpose of me not having to put my phone to my face. So headphones come off an ear, and bluetooth earpiece goes in one. I've learned to deal with it.


----------



## psikey

Dragonfly Red for use while mobile, but having had the Mojo (recently sold) I'm seriously considering the Hugo 2 for Home/Work use. Its far more than I'd like to spend but to me the Mojo was noticeably better than the DFR and its my 50th in a couple of weeks so I deserve a treat  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
  
 Don't know if its an age thing but I'm getting more into "listening" to music as I get older, not just as background noise.
  
 Thing is I only use Shure SE846 IEMS and don't even have any headphones as ones I tried just don't sound as good as my SE846's to my ears. Would the Hugo 2 be overkill ?


----------



## CluelessAudio

Has anyone else tried it with a mac? Noticed no difference with my DFR on a 2014 Macbook Pro. Would love to try a mojo but if people say it's only a bit better than a DFR which made no difference... I don't have much hope.


----------



## nealh

psikey said:


> Dragonfly Red for use while mobile, but having had the Mojo (recently sold) I'm seriously considering the Hugo 2 for Home/Work use. Its far more than I'd like to spend but to me the Mojo was noticeably better than the DFR and its my 50th in a couple of weeks so I deserve a treat
> 
> *Don't know if its an age thing but I'm getting more into "listening" to music as I get older, not just as background noise.*
> 
> Thing is I only use Shure SE846 IEMS and don't even have any headphones as ones I tried just don't sound as good as my SE846's to my ears. Would the Hugo 2 be overkill ?




Me too. I turned 52 and in the last year or so started to listen music on daily basis. While my ears can discern what many hear can, I do enjoy clear detailed sound. 
Get what you can afford, that makes you happy!


----------



## Onny Izwan

From my point of view (and I've listened to some really exotic hifi kit in my time) I think the DF Red is far more transparent than the Chord Mojo. The Red is more musical (read enjoyable) over all music too. Someone should do a blind test.


----------



## psikey

onny izwan said:


> From my point of view (and I've listened to some really exotic hifi kit in my time) I think the DF Red is far more transparent than the Chord Mojo. The Red is more musical (read enjoyable) over all music too. Someone should do a blind test.


 
  
 I did a sort of test. The Mojo is the only DAC I tried that gave me "goose bumps" putting a "Cheshire Cat" smile on my face when listening to some DSD files. This is the reason I'm considering a Hugo 2 for Home/Work use while keeping the DFR for mobile use.
  
 Is it worth the extra over the DRF which is a much lower price and super usable due to no battery charging considerations, and tiny weigh/size ........ for mobile use then NO.
  
 For exceptional sound quality it its price range and if using indoors at home/work and your comfortable with the price and you have files and earphones/headphones that can do it justice then YES.


----------



## stuck limo

devodonaldson said:


> No you can't talk through the dac. Its a one way device. However all you have to do is disconnect the cable from your dragonfly into the 3.5mm jack on the phone. And everything will work as normal. After the conversation simply plug the cable back into the decided and get back to bobbing along


 
  
 Wait, I'm confused. If the DAC is connected to the phone, if I plug in my headphone cable into the 3.5mm jack, the audio and internal mic will work then? Or not? It seemed to me that my friend could hear my voice but I couldn't hear him with the DAC plugged in (through my headphones). I could hear him through the ear speaker that you put your head up next to. He could hear my voice when I spoke into the microphone. The phone call audio just would not come through the DAC. Everything else worked as it should when the DAC was plugged in. (voice through mic, caller through ear speaker)


----------



## Devodonaldson

stuck limo said:


> Wait, I'm confused. If the DAC is connected to the phone, if I plug in my headphone cable into the 3.5mm jack, the audio and internal mic will work then? Or not? It seemed to me that my friend could hear my voice but I couldn't hear him with the DAC plugged in (through my headphones). I could hear him through the ear speaker that you put your head up next to. He could hear my voice when I spoke into the microphone. The phone call audio just would not come through the DAC. Everything else worked as it should when the DAC was plugged in. (voice through mic, caller through ear speaker)


 sorry. Yes if you plug your headphones with mic into the phone jack, even with dac plugged in, you will get full call audio. Then plug headphones back into dac forusic listening. If you are using UAPP, then phone audio does not get routes to the USB DAC as different driver is being used. But phone jack is using normal android drivers. You could be on UAPP with dac, go to Youtube, plug your cans into your phone, and it will work fine, then plug back into the day, and continue in UAPP


----------



## Devodonaldson

stuck limo said:


> Wait, I'm confused. If the DAC is connected to the phone, if I plug in my headphone cable into the 3.5mm jack, the audio and internal mic will work then? Or not? It seemed to me that my friend could hear my voice but I couldn't hear him with the DAC plugged in (through my headphones). I could hear him through the ear speaker that you put your head up next to. He could hear my voice when I spoke into the microphone. The phone call audio just would not come through the DAC. Everything else worked as it should when the DAC was plugged in. (voice through mic, caller through ear speaker)


 on a related note, the reason I use the bluetooth headset instead of m-100 for calls is because I purchased a cable with dual output plugs to use both earpiece inputs instead of the one. It was a noticeable upgrade in sq with a good source/dac, so this is my preferred way of listening to V-Moda cans now. I use the same cable for my XS and my DFR when I go on my runs.


----------



## stuck limo

devodonaldson said:


> on a related note, the reason I use the bluetooth headset instead of m-100 for calls is because I purchased a cable with dual output plugs to use both earpiece inputs instead of the one. It was a noticeable upgrade in sq with a good source/dac, so this is my preferred way of listening to V-Moda cans now. I use the same cable for my XS and my DFR when I go on my runs.


 
  
 What cable did you buy? I've been curious about a cable upgrade with dual outputs for a while now for the M-100s/XS. Can you post a pic of the setup?


----------



## SpiderNhan

stuck limo said:


> What cable did you buy? I've been curious about a cable upgrade with dual outputs for a while now for the M-100s/XS. Can you post a pic of the setup?


 
 This is a link my review of a double ended cable I found on Amazon.

 http://www.head-fi.org/t/645315/replacement-cable-for-v-moda-m100#post_12853348


----------



## shootthemoon18

psikey said:


> Dragonfly Red for use while mobile, but having had the Mojo (recently sold) I'm seriously considering the Hugo 2 for Home/Work use. Its far more than I'd like to spend but to me the Mojo was noticeably better than the DFR and its my 50th in a couple of weeks so I deserve a treat
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 If portability at home is not an issue, you can get an Elear+Mojo with plenty of change for the price of the Hugo. If only IEM works for you, then maybe W80 or JH16V2 with the Mojo. SE846 has quite good transparency but it is not that great. You'll get much bigger gain in SQ by upgrading the headphone/earphone if you already got a good source (mojo).


----------



## Citsur86

Anyone heard anything new regarding the update for the Dragonfly Red and Black?


----------



## Devodonaldson

citsur86 said:


> Anyone heard anything new regarding the update for the Dragonfly Red and Black?



See post #2577 pg 172


----------



## Duncan

I know I only said about this a couple of pages ago, yet I still cannot believe the synergy between the DFR and Soundmagic E80... This from someone who has been around the block many times and have both DACs and IEMs / headphones costing many many times the value of this combination.


----------



## slackerpo

where is the update?


----------



## birdman

My DFB arrived, it's running and sounding fine on my Nexus 5, definitely an improvement for my harder to drive earbuds and ath-mx50. There's a learning curve in getting volume controls figured out and getting it to work with Spotify.
  
 The sound on my desktop set up through DFB is blowing me away. I have an old Kenwood tuner/amp hooked up to some old but good aiwa speakers. Coming out of the computer sound card the sound is meh, muddy and hard to fix. DFB makes a huge difference. Headphones plugged into the Kenwood phone-out is also great.
  
 I wondered if it would work on my Chromebook using the Spotify web app. It is. Can I assume that when the light on the DFB is green, it's doing it's work? It sure sounds like it's working. 
  
 Question about using UAPP. The only way I can get the phone's volume button to work is by un-ticking the box in UAPP settings that says "Bit perfect (USB audio) When enabled, no processing...etc". Unticked, the light on the DFB is still green. Does this mean UAPP will automatically give bit-perfect anyways? I see confusing opinions this in the thread.
  
 My first reaction was that the sound was lacking in bass, with more listening I'm convinced it's a very neutral and more detailed sound. I'm happy with the purchase.


----------



## Topspin70

I'm very happy with my DFB too. Although I began to notice some soft pops and blips when using CCK to my iPhone 7. I have seen lots of such issues with Android devices. Did I miss posts that mention similar issues with regards to iPhones?


----------



## shootertwist

^are you using the usb 3.0 lightning camera connector? that seemed to have solved the issue for me


----------



## Devodonaldson

birdman said:


> My DFB arrived, it's running and sounding fine on my Nexus 5, definitely an improvement for my harder to drive earbuds and ath-mx50. There's a learning curve in getting volume controls figured out and getting it to work with Spotify.
> 
> The sound on my desktop set up through DFB is blowing me away. I have an old Kenwood tuner/amp hooked up to some old but good aiwa speakers. Coming out of the computer sound card the sound is meh, muddy and hard to fix. DFB makes a huge difference. Headphones plugged into the Kenwood phone-out is also great.
> 
> ...


 the reason you are unable to change volume with bit perfect checked is because you have the volume setting set to software volume. That is the default. In settings choose volume as hardware volume. That will now control the volume steps in the DFB itself. Bit perfect is the way to go. Happy listening


----------



## birdman

devodonaldson said:


> the reason you are unable to change volume with bit perfect checked is because you have the volume setting set to software volume. That is the default. In settings choose volume as hardware volume. That will now control the volume steps in the DFB itself. Bit perfect is the way to go. Happy listening




Thanks for answering. I must have missed that because I had the uapp hardware volume set too high and thought I wasn't controlling it with my phone's volume button when set to hardware. It was loud! Working now.


----------



## Duncan

psikey said:


> Not sure if its going to be any good but intend to Velcro DFR to back of my Z5 compact which should make up the gap size & keep secure. This one is the right direction. May be too big a gap but worth a try seeing as so cheap. The cable I already use above was only about £3 anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


seems to be almost made to measure for the S7 Edge with a case installed...


Will have to find myself some velcro or thick double sided tape... 

Thanks again for the heads up


----------



## psikey

Mine's not arrived yet! Does it feel too big in the hand or much better then with the cable?

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


----------



## Topspin70

shootertwist said:


> ^are you using the usb 3.0 lightning camera connector? that seemed to have solved the issue for me


 

 Thanks for the tip. I'm using an original apple lightning camera connector (http://www.apple.com/sg/shop/product/MD821AM/A/lightning-to-usb-camera-adapter?fnode=97)
  
 The USB connector's not blue so I think it's not 3.0. Where did you get yours?


----------



## turkayguner

Can you guys compare O2/ODAC (which I'm about to purchase) vs DFR, in sound quality and character wise?
  
 The headphones I own;
  
 Shure SE846
 Sennheiser HD650
 Audio Technica M50x
  
 Thanks!


----------



## smellyoldgoat

topspin70 said:


> Thanks for the tip. I'm using an original apple lightning camera connector (http://www.apple.com/sg/shop/product/MD821AM/A/lightning-to-usb-camera-adapter?fnode=97)
> 
> The USB connector's not blue so I think it's not 3.0. Where did you get yours?


 
  
 Not all USB 3.0 ports are blue fyi
  
 The Apple Camera Connector Kit with the extra lightning port is USB 3.0, the regular CCK is not USB 3.0.


----------



## saintintn

Not sure what's changed, because AQ download isnt ready, but I'm getting the blue light from Masters on Tidal today.


----------



## saintintn

Nevermind.  It's outputting at 48kHz which is blue.
  
 Can you tell I'm excited about MQA coming to the DragonFly?


----------



## Topspin70

smellyoldgoat said:


> Not all USB 3.0 ports are blue fyi
> 
> The Apple Camera Connector Kit with the extra lightning port is USB 3.0, the regular CCK is not USB 3.0.


 

 Awesome. Thanks for explaining. It's under iPad accessories so I missed it. Will give this one a try.


----------



## zengaboy

mqa master BitPerfect i think
  
 1 Start windows app
 2 Settings Streaming Sound -dragonfly- force volume only - 1 and 3 uncheck
 3 Play a mqa master song
  
 4 DURING playback go to Settings Streaming Sound -dragonfly- click use exclusive mode
  
 After step 4 my apo equalizer stop working .sound is better instant [no stop at all] and dragonflay black change color from magenta 96 to amber 88200 and back
 ex Blink 182 California is 88200 color amber.
  
 If you  play a 44100 song the sound stop error message appears and you have so start over. For 44100 use jriver.


----------



## psikey

duncan said:


> seems to be almost made to measure for the S7 Edge with a case installed...
> 
> 
> Will have to find myself some velcro or thick double sided tape...
> ...


 
  
 Yes, mine arrived today. Fits even better with my Z5 compact with it being a thicker phone than the S7. Couldn't have designed it any better, its as if it was designed for the Z5 !
  
 Gap is just right size to fasten with some Sellotape Sticky Fixer Tape (more firm/rigid than using Velcro as I don't need to take it off the back of the case. If I still want to use with a PC then I still can with extension lead).
  
 I've now achieved my ultimate portable combining low weight/size, decent battery life (Z5 Stamina Mode), no interference from 3G/4G/Wifi. Latest Android OS so no issues streaming/storing Tidal/Spotify plus of cause my Hi-def stored files on 256GB microSD playing through UAPP in bitperfect. Even the Built-in Sony Music app plays DSD's !  All done with no expensive high-end Sony/AK prices. The Z5 even has LDAC Bluetooth which is excellent to the higher-end Sony LDAC headphones if needed. The Z5 is also a fast phone so smooth operation. Total weight 180g.
  
 Just need to find a button app that lets me use the volume buttons as next/prev track (not working in UAPP app itself with Z5 but do with S7?).
  

  

  

  
 Note:   the cable controls don't work through the DAC but then they don't with any DAC I'm aware of. Still waiting on AQ to send out the MQA firmware update that supposedly also fixes the Android OS low volume issue (volume not an issue for me with my SE846's with Spotify for example)


----------



## dacari

I owned a Red when it came out and today I received a Black, I only tested from the PC but to my surprise It seems that the Black has too much gain I can't pass the 2 (of 100) if I remember correctly the Red (I no longer have it) had a bit more room to play with the volume. The only alternative is manage the volume from the source (youtube, foobar..etc)
  
 Waiting the firmware update if we have a bit better/gradual volume steps. At least there is no channel imbalance


----------



## psikey

dacari said:


> I owned a Red when it came out and today I received a Black, I only tested from the PC but to my surprise It seems that the Black has too much gain I can't pass the 2 (of 100) if I remember correctly the Red (I no longer have it) had a bit more room to play with the volume. The only alternative is manage the volume from the source (youtube, foobar..etc)
> 
> Waiting the firmware update if we have a bit better/gradual volume steps. At least there is no channel imbalance


 
  
 On my Desktop & Laptop with the Red I listen between 7-12 (of 100) but the SE846's are very sensitive at only 9 Ohm.


----------



## dacari

psikey said:


> On my Desktop & Laptop with the Red I listen between 7-12 (of 100) but the SE846's are very sensitive at only 9 Ohm.


 
  
 I use mainly UM3x, I tend to listen below average volume but I highly doubt anyone could pass 2-3/100 with these iems. I don't remember exactly with the Red but I think I could reach 4-5/100.


----------



## fester1986

Any news about update ? What a shame for Audioquest.....update one microchip take 10 months !


----------



## psikey

fester1986 said:


> Any news about update ? What a shame for Audioquest.....update one microchip take 10 months !


 
  
 Yes, the Android OS volume issue is taking them ages to issue a solution. Fortunately the volume using Spotify with my SE846's has been loud enough but nearly have to set at max  (less than 50% if using UAPP with proper volume control).  I posted previous that AQ support emailed me and said about two weeks for the MQA & volume fix firmware (that was last week).


----------



## fester1986

psikey said:


> Yes, the Android OS volume issue is taking them ages to issue a solution. Fortunately the volume using Spotify with my SE846's has been loud enough but nearly have to set at max  (less than 50% if using UAPP with proper volume control).  I posted previous that AQ support emailed me and said about two weeks for the MQA & volume fix firmware (that was last week).




I understand it's possible to have some issues with diferent OS. But shame is that Audioquest sell this red version under the sticker "mobile friendly" .So.... i asking, nobody just test it in company on android before they put on market ? What...


----------



## psikey

From what I've read some Android phones don't have issues while others do. All mine work perfectly with UAPP app, just not using android default sound system apps (nearly all!!).

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


----------



## fester1986

psikey said:


> From what I've read some Android phones don't have issues while others do. All mine work perfectly with UAPP app, just not using android default sound system apps (nearly all!!).
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk




When i use UAPP all works fine, but i try 5 different devices Xiaomi MiMax, Nvidia Shield, HTC M8, Nexus 7, Lenovo S1, same problem with system volume.


----------



## psikey

Its strange. With Samsung S7 difference between max and one step down his huge with max being a bit too loud and next step being way too low.

With my Z5 the Max volume is about the same but more control to the 50% volume level.

Hopefully problem goes away with rhe update.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


----------



## yacobx

duxbury66 said:


> So I've just seen the Apple CCK USB 3 or the first time in the flesh, wow that thing is massive!
> 
> I had planned to buy it having seen the posts in this thread about it fixing the pops and clicks issue and also Audioquest's insert in my DFR box stating that you get better SQ using it. The nice lady in the Apple Store was even going to take off the price of my USB 2 version and only charge me the difference after I explained why I was interested in the USB 3 version, but when I saw it's size I decided I can live with the occasional pops and clicks!!!




Thanks for your post. I actually made the switch and love the sq


----------



## Topspin70

Just received my USB 3 CCK. Great solution for the pops and clicks, which in my case was frequent enough to be distracting and irritating. The adaptor is big no doubt, but it allows charging while listening, something I couldn't do before. And a quick test reveals no difference in SQ with and without charging during playback. Good piece of gear.


----------



## Onny Izwan

topspin70 said:


> Just received my USB 3 CCK. Great solution for the pops and clicks, which in my case was frequent enough to be distracting and irritating. The adaptor is big no doubt, but it allows charging while listening, something I couldn't do before. And a quick test reveals no difference in SQ with and without charging during playback. Good piece of gear.


 

 Did you notice any increase in resolution using USB 3.0 as opposed to the old 2.0 CCK? According to AudioQuest, they do make a difference.


----------



## yacobx

onny izwan said:


> topspin70 said:
> 
> 
> > Just received my USB 3 CCK. Great solution for the pops and clicks, which in my case was frequent enough to be distracting and irritating. The adaptor is big no doubt, but it allows charging while listening, something I couldn't do before. And a quick test reveals no difference in SQ with and without charging during playback. Good piece of gear.
> ...





I believe there is a difference in clarity. I was told by an apple worker that the internal parts are better quality and fir someone streaming tidal hifi the extra bandwidth is important. I really like the fact that I can charge and listen


----------



## Topspin70

Now that you mentioned it, and I gave it a better listen, yes. As @yacobx mentioned, there's better clarity and more detailed. The older one sounds constricted and a little muddy in comparison. 



onny izwan said:


> Did you notice any increase in resolution using USB 3.0 as opposed to the old 2.0 CCK? According to AudioQuest, they do make a difference.


----------



## Onny Izwan

Really? Wow. That's refreshing to hear. Ordering mine now.


----------



## coolcrew23

turkayguner said:


> Can you guys compare O2/ODAC (which I'm about to purchase) vs DFR, in sound quality and character wise.
> 
> The headphones I own;
> 
> ...




It will power the m50x well. I use this as my portable on the go setup. 

Might be lacking for the hd650. I had to get an amp for my hd600 to give it power.


----------



## coolcrew23

turkayguner said:


> Can you guys compare O2/ODAC (which I'm about to purchase) vs DFR, in sound quality and character wise?
> 
> The headphones I own;
> 
> ...




Try schiit amps.


----------



## jegnyc

topspin70 said:


> Just received my USB 3 CCK. Great solution for the pops and clicks, which in my case was frequent enough to be distracting and irritating. The adaptor is big no doubt, but it allows charging while listening, something I couldn't do before. And a quick test reveals no difference in SQ with and without charging during playback. Good piece of gear.


 
 A side benefit to the USB 3 CCK (maybe unique to my set-up).  In the past, when I have tried connecting my iPhone to my TEAC UD-501 DAC using the old CCK, it would not work, displaying a message that the current draw was too great - odd as the TEAC is AC powered.  With the new CCK, I can get the connection to work, as long as the CCK is charging.  (I could also jury-rig a powered hub and get it to work.)


----------



## Topspin70

I understand little about tech stuff but sounds like one of those USB "handshakes" that I often read about where both ends needs to be powered, and this CCK does the trick. Just one more thing to justify the purchase. Super happy. 



jegnyc said:


> A side benefit to the USB 3 CCK (maybe unique to my set-up).  In the past, when I have tried connecting my iPhone to my TEAC UD-501 DAC using the old CCK, it would not work, displaying a message that the current draw was too great - odd as the TEAC is AC powered.  With the new CCK, I can get the connection to work, as long as the CCK is charging.  (I could also jury-rig a powered hub and get it to work.)


----------



## coolcrew23

Is there an update already for mqa? I thought end january was the date.


----------



## pofdstudios

NOPE! Not yet


----------



## Citsur86

Just want to see if you more knowledgeable folks can clear up a question I have regarding the upcoming MQA update to DFR and DFB.  As I understand it, programs like Tidal will still need to do the first unfold in the software, then pass on that initial unfold data to the DFR or DFB for additional hardware unfolds up to a max of 192KHz.  Is this correct?


----------



## Depster

citsur86 said:


> Just want to see if you more knowledgeable folks can clear up a question I have regarding the upcoming MQA update to DFR and DFB.  As I understand it, programs like Tidal will still need to do the first unfold in the software, then pass on that initial unfold data to the DFR or DFB for additional hardware unfolds up to a max of 192KHz.  Is this correct?


 
  
 I copied this link from the CES 2017 MQA Thread. It's a good read and will help you understand MQA a little better.
  
 http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/748-mqa-civilians/
  
 ~M~


----------



## Onny Izwan

Found a great China-made carrying case that's a great alternative to Pelican cases. Cheap and great temp home for my DF Red, AQ Jitterbug and Sony XBA-Z5 when on the move


----------



## yacobx

onny izwan said:


> Found a great China-made carrying case that's a great alternative to Pelican cases. Cheap and great temp home for my DF Red, AQ Jitterbug and Sony XBA-Z5 when on the move




Link please


----------



## Onny Izwan

yacobx said:


> Link please


 

 Here you are https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1PCS-Outdoor-Shockproof-Waterproof-Airtight-Survival-Case-Container-Storage-Carry-Box-Large-Small-Size/32749621427.html?spm=2114.40010308.4.20.F808PZ


----------



## huckfinn

I apologies in advance for the maybe silly question...
 Can the Dragonfly be used with the good old ipod 5.5 and how?
 Thanks!


----------



## Citsur86

depster said:


> I copied this link from the CES 2017 MQA Thread. It's a good read and will help you understand MQA a little better.
> 
> http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/748-mqa-civilians/
> 
> ~M~


 
 Super helpful thanks!  This really broadened my understanding of MQA.  So what we've been listening to out of the DFB/DFR as of today from Tidal (or any other MQA source) is just the Core Decoding.  Once they release this update, we'll get the hardware rendering as well!


----------



## Citsur86

Another question for the group.  How can I play from my MacBook Pro using the Dragonfly Red out to my Pioneer VSX-44 receiver? Would I need a 3.5mm to Red/White adapter cable and plug into the stereo In plugs on the Receiver?


----------



## SPLWF

MQA still making me scratch my head.
  
 They state
  
 "*Real world example*:

1. The studio creates a track at 24 bit / 352.8 kHz DXD. 
2. The studio uses the MQA process on the track, packaging it as 24 bit / 44.1 kHz.
3. The consumer purchases or streams the 24 bit / 44.1 kHz track.
4. The consumer's playback system decodes and renders the track at 24 bit / 352.8 kHz DXD."
  
 Make understanding:
  
1.  That 24/352 is going to be about 50mb - 100mb file
2.  I smell Compression
3.  File is now 1/3 of it's size
4.  10mb file is now lossy playing at 24/352.
  
  
 I was just skimming through that link provide.  Streaming can work, but downloading (Unless their giving me the full un-compressed file in raw format) will not be true 24/352, etc...
  
 I can be incorrect with all this, but please explain.  Thanks


----------



## SPLWF

citsur86 said:


> Another question for the group.  How can I play from my MacBook Pro using the Dragonfly Red out to my Pioneer VSX-44 receiver? Would I need a 3.5mm to Red/White adapter cable and plug into the stereo In plugs on the Receiver?


 
  
 Yes that will work.  I would do the exact thing if I wanted to route my DFB to a Tube AMP.


----------



## Citsur86

@SPLWF I could be wrong but I think it's more like a .zip file where the contents inside are unchanged. As it's decoded and rendered, the original 24/352 content is presented.


----------



## SPLWF

citsur86 said:


> @SPLWF I could be wrong but I think it's more like a .zip file where the contents inside are unchanged. As it's decoded and rendered, the original 24/352 content is presented.


 
  
 lol, good answer, that's a possibility.


----------



## paulgc

Audioquest, when is the MQA firmware update app going to be available?


----------



## MartynB85

splwf said:


> MQA still making me scratch my head.
> 
> They state
> 
> ...


 
  
 Maybe watch this vid, and his other MQA vids if your interested 
  

  
 MQA is quite clever, some very knowledgable people in this field have dismissed MQA so it may be a case of 'time will tell'.


----------



## zacster

On page 172 of this thread, in the reply from Audioquest, they refer to a "volume issue".  What was this issue?  I tried using my DFB with my main system and could not get enough volume out of it, yet it plays plenty loud on my headphones.  I used my iMac into the DF, and that into my pre-amp via a 3.5 to RCA cable.  I had to have the pre-amp turned up to 11 to get a reasonable volume, and then I got all the hiss and noise too that it amplified.  I would have expected a higher output from the DFB, at least enough to drive my pre-amp.  The pre is a DIY Aikido 24v, my amp is a modified ST-70.  When I play phono I have plenty of gain, Oppo BDP93 is fine, Echo Dot is a little low but OK.  The DFB I just couldn't get enough. 
  
 I'm listening to Natalie Merchant's Tigerlily at the moment on Tidal MQA on the computer with DFB and BD DT1350s, I've never heard it so good, and I've always used this as a test disc.  That is, when I still listened to CD.  Between vinyl and MQA I may never listen to a CD again.  For that matter, I never actually owned that many CDs considering I've been buying them since 1985.


----------



## slackerpo

we need he update


----------



## Onny Izwan

Lovely track to hear the fabulous layers of voices with the DragonFly Red


----------



## Saaki

I'm considering getting a dragonfly for mobile use, but don't really understand the difference between the two, or if the extra features in the red would do anything for me.
  
 On my desktop setup I have a Fulla 2 which I usually match with my JBL lsr305 powered studio monitors and sometimes with headphones. All my headphones are quite low impedance. I currently have the 1more Triple Drivers (32ohms), V-Moda M80 (28.5ohms) and soon the Final Audio Design Sonorous III (16ohms). I mostly listen to 320kbps MP3's and some 16/44.1 flac non-streaming, however I'm playing with the idea of signing up for Tidal. I'd be matching it with my OnePlus One Android phone or my 2012 MBP while away from home. One of the reasons I want a little DAC/amp also is that with both the 1more and the V-Modas I find I have the volume up at about 80-100%, the other is improved SQ.
  
 Would it be worth it for me to pay the extra $100 for the red?
  
 Many thanks!


----------



## SpiderNhan

saaki said:


> I'm considering getting a dragonfly for mobile use, but don't really understand the difference between the two, or if the extra features in the red would do anything for me.
> 
> On my desktop setup I have a Fulla 2 which I usually match with my JBL lsr305 powered studio monitors and sometimes with headphones. All my headphones are quite low impedance. I currently have the 1more Triple Drivers (32ohms), V-Moda M80 ([COLOR=444444]28.5ohms) and soon the Final Audio Design Sonorous III (16ohms). I mostly listen to 320kbps MP3's and some [/COLOR]16/44.1 flac non-streaming, however I'm playing with the idea of signing up for Tidal. I'd be matching it with my OnePlus One Android phone or my 2012 MBP while away from home. One of the reasons I want a little DAC/amp also is that with both the 1more and the V-Modas I find I have the volume up at about 80-100%, the other is improved SQ.
> 
> ...



I haven't heard the Black, but most reports say it's darker and bassier than the Red with less treble sparkle and detail.

As a Red user I think the extra clarity will benefit your headphones. I also rock a 1More Triple Driver and V-MODA XS, which both sport a darker signature. This is just speculation but the Black might make your gear sound too dark.


----------



## canali

for those using the df red on a windows computer, playing tidal hifi.
 having issues now.
  
 getting a banner on Tidal saying:
*''Tidal requires you to set you sound system settings in your*
*control panel to 16 bit, 44100Hz (cd quality)in order to play tracks correctly.''*
  
 ok easy enough.
 long ago i already set up the df red according to audioquest instructions:
 (see *page 13 onwards for windows users*)
*http://www.audioquest.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/DragonFly-Red-FlightManual-EN.pdf*
  
*...but the minimum i can choose is 24/44**, ...there is no 16/44 option*


----------



## Decommo

spidernhan said:


> saaki said:
> 
> 
> > I haven't heard the Black, but most reports say it's darker and bassier than the Red with less treble sparkle and detail.
> ...


----------



## zolom

From my experience with the DFB (which I own) and the DFR (which I had the opportunity to try several times), along with the S7E and the SE846, The DFR sounds thin, too clear with an emphasis on the highs, while the DFB is warm, even slightly bassy. Of course, one cannot  set aside the severe volume issues experienced with the DFR while connected to an Android (S7E); the volume then has to be set to maximum to listen reasonably, I hope that the coming DF firmware update will resolve that (at least).


----------



## Topspin70

The above seems to be the more common user experience instead of the one reported by Headfonia, which led me to choose the black over the red.


----------



## wwyjoe

onny izwan said:


> Lovely track to hear the fabulous layers of voices with the DragonFly Red




May i know what is this music player app ? Like the clean look!


----------



## Onny Izwan

wwyjoe said:


> May i know what is this music player app ? Like the clean look!


 

 Yeah - I like it too - hehe - its just plain ol' Deezer


----------



## snip3r77

zolom said:


> From my experience with the DFB (which I own) and the DFR (which I had the opportunity to try several times), along with the S7E and the SE846, The DFR sounds thin, too clear with an emphasis on the highs, while the DFB is warm, even slightly bassy. Of course, one cannot  set aside the severe volume issues experienced with the DFR while connected to an Android (S7E); the volume then has to be set to maximum to listen reasonably, I hope that the coming DF firmware update will resolve that (at least).




Does DFR has perceived lesser bass as compared to DFB due to it being less warm and hence sounding thinner ?


----------



## SpiderNhan

snip3r77 said:


> Does DFR has perceived lesser bass as compared to DFB due to it being less warm and hence sounding thinner ?



On my Galaxy S6 Active, without USB Audio Player Pro, the Red sounds different. UAPP has no volume issues with the Red and is capable of bit-perfect playback. The Red when paired with Android's default USB audio function is still being messed with by Android, hence the volume issues. Basically, through Android's built-in USB audio routing you still hear your device's DAC as interpreted by your external DAC. I guess this is the DAC equivalent of double amping.

If you're using any DAC with an Android device and not using UAPP you have not heard what you DAC sounds like, period. I had my first epiphany years ago with the Galaxy S3 and a V-MODA Vamp Verza. I had been using them for the better part of a year before eventually installing Cyanogenmod, which nerfed the USB audio function. Researching online eventually led me to UAPP and I'll never forget the moment that my Verza first spoke to me in her true voice. I know it's overused, but night and day is the best way to described it.


----------



## west0ne

spidernhan said:


> On my Galaxy S6 Active, without USB Audio Player Pro, the Red sounds different. UAPP has no volume issues with the Red and is capable of bit-perfect playback. The Red when paired with Android's default USB audio function is still being messed with by Android, hence the volume issues. Basically, through Android's built-in USB audio routing you still hear your device's DAC as interpreted by your external DAC. I guess this is the DAC equivalent of double amping.
> 
> If you're using any DAC with an Android device and not using UAPP you have not heard what you DAC sounds like, period. I had my first epiphany years ago with the Galaxy S3 and a V-MODA Vamp Verza. I had been using them for the better part of a year before eventually installing Cyanogenmod, which nerfed the USB audio function. Researching online eventually led me to UAPP and I'll never forget the moment that my Verza first spoke to me in her true voice. I know it's overused, but night and day is the best way to described it.


 
 The DFR & DFB sound different even when both are being used with UAPP in bitperfect mode and the observations being made about the differences are relevant regardless of the transport.
  
 It's true that when using any USB DAC with Android there will be a  difference to when using the DAC with UAPP. When not using UAPP the device's internal DAC isn't being used so no 'double DACing', rather the Android software is processing and re-sampling the audio before sending out to the external DAC. This is where the volume issue comes in as the volume controls in Android operate within software rather than directly controlling the hardware.
  
 Even if AQ release a firmware update all it is likely to do is set the hardware up in such a way that the default hardware volume is set at 100%, Android would still be controlling the volume in software but you would now have the full range rather than the maximum output being set somewhere below maximum. It is unlikely to give full hardware control and is unlikely to deal with the issues of Android re-sampling and processing the audio before it gets sent to the DAC so we won't be ditching UAPP anytime soon.
  
 As I understand it Nougat introduces new Audio Policies which in theory may allow direct pass-through of audio from an App to the DAC. I've seen an example for HDMI multi-channel audio so the same could apply to USB Audio but I'm not sure if this is something that Android device manufacturers would have to implement or whether it can be done at App level.


----------



## Saaki

spidernhan said:


> snip3r77 said:
> 
> 
> > Does DFR has perceived lesser bass as compared to DFB due to it being less warm and hence sounding thinner ?
> ...




So I'll have to use UAPP to not have any issues if I'm using it with my Android phone? Is there any way to listen to streaming music with the DR on Android? How does the red pair with the 1more triple drivers volume wise? Right now I pretty much have them between 80-100% volume depending on the track I'm listening to.


----------



## SpiderNhan

saaki said:


> So I'll have to use UAPP to not have any issues if I'm using it with my Android phone? Is there any way to listen to streaming music with the DR on Android? How does the red pair with the 1more triple drivers? Right now I pretty much have them between 80-100% volume depending on the track I'm listening to.


 
 You can stream through UAPP using Tidal or BubbleUPnP, which will give you access to Play Music, Google Drive, Qobuz and a couple others. I think the Red and 1More Triple Driver is a sublime pairing. I listen at around 45% using bit-perfect and hardware volume on UAPP.


----------



## Saaki

That's great news! I'm almost sold on the Red. Does it come with any sort of cables like the Fiio DACs?


----------



## pofdstudios

No you only get the DFR and a leather case


----------



## ivanrocks321

Hi guys got a question, my LG v10 died on me and im looking for a new phone Im between a LG V20 or a ZTE Axon 7 + a dragonfly red for the price difference of the 2 phones. But I just need some more info before I buy, I asked a few of my questions on the axon 7 and lg v20 thread but I did not get a definitive reply. 
  
 -Can any usb dac including the dragonfly red or any other driverless usb dac work with the lg v20? my v10 only supported usb dac via USBAPP since it did not support OTG for dac
 -Can any usb dac including the dragonfly red or any other driverless dac work with the axon 7? 
 - If I choose the cheaper phone it would let me get a dragonfly red and I like the fact I would have the option to use it with other devices and its able to handle MQA (still wondering if it will or will not be the next big thing) but would it also work with my chromebook and what about my ubuntu? 
  
 Ideally the dragonfly red + axon 7 would give me great sound quality that is at least good as my v10 or close to the SQ of the v20 since most people seem to state the v20 is the better sounding one and allow me to use it with my app version of tidal and roon to be able to take advantage of MQA.


----------



## Saaki

spidernhan said:


> saaki said:
> 
> 
> > So I'll have to use UAPP to not have any issues if I'm using it with my Android phone? Is there any way to listen to streaming music with the DR on Android? How does the red pair with the 1more triple drivers? Right now I pretty much have them between 80-100% volume depending on the track I'm listening to.
> ...




I'm guessing that the remote on the 1mores doesn't work when going through the dragonfly?


----------



## SpiderNhan

saaki said:


> I'm guessing that the remote on the 1mores doesn't work when going through the dragonfly?


 
 Correct.


----------



## yacobx

Has anyone ever used a USB powered hub to boost output power on dragonfly ?


----------



## west0ne

yacobx said:


> Has anyone ever used a USB powered hub to boost output power on dragonfly ?


 
 I've tried it and it didn't make any difference to the volume/power output.


----------



## yacobx

west0ne said:


> yacobx said:
> 
> 
> > Has anyone ever used a USB powered hub to boost output power on dragonfly ?
> ...




Dang that sucks


----------



## Onny Izwan

Does anyone here know how many "taps" are the DragonFlys?


----------



## slackerpo

where is the update?


----------



## squ1gs

slackerpo said:


> where is the update?




Emailed them today and got this reply. It seems we'll never get it :/

"The software update will be available to download for free via the Desktop Manager app on our website: http://www.audioquest.com/dragonfly-series/#downloads. The MQA update will not be launched until Tidal has a resolution for their buffering issue. People simply aren’t buying hi res MQA files, they’re streaming them. With so little material to choose from, this delay should not cause any issues. We want to be a good partner to Tidal and not put any additional pressure on them. As soon as they’re ready, we’ll make the update available.

If you registered your Dragonfly, you will receive an email when it's available.

Please note: you will need to use a suitable media player to play MQA files. This is because MQA requires a decoder and a renderer to play a file. The renderer is built into the Dragonfly and the decoder is built into the media player's software. Once updated, your Dragonfly will glow a beautiful shade of blue to let you know you're playing an MQA file.

Our apologies if this delay causes you any inconvenience.

Best regards,

Alasdair Patrick
AudioQuest
2621 White Rd., Irvine, CA 92614
AQ Main: 949-585-0111 
www.audioquest.com"


----------



## zacster

I guess it is time to exhale.  I was hoping to have the update before my Tidal trial expired.  Maybe when the update comes I'll pay for a month to see if it is worth it, and maybe there will be more titles, and maybe it will be more organized.  In the meantime I'll use my DFB the way it is, it still sounds a lot better than straight out of my computer or iPhone.


----------



## hornytoad

I tried to register for the software update and it says there was some type of security error  ? 
  
 Thus I could not register.


----------



## dacari

And the update to have more compatibility with Android, to solve the volume issue? This problem has been there from the begining and after several months we don't have a clue, only promises.


----------



## Gonzbull

That's pretty disappointing news. I've no buffering issues with streaming MQA via Tidal on my Mac that uses a different DAC. However I'm hoping for the Tidal iOS app to get the MQA feature which will be used with my DFB. 
Flawless operation currently with my iPhone 5s.


----------



## canali

gonzbull said:


> That's pretty disappointing news. I've no buffering issues with streaming MQA via Tidal on my Mac that uses a different DAC. However I'm hoping for the Tidal iOS app to get the MQA feature which will be used with my DFB.
> Flawless operation currently with my iPhone 5s.


 
 I have gotten buffering issues with Tidal's mqa.


----------



## pkcpga

gonzbull said:


> That's pretty disappointing news. I've no buffering issues with streaming MQA via Tidal on my Mac that uses a different DAC. However I'm hoping for the Tidal iOS app to get the MQA feature which will be used with my DFB.
> Flawless operation currently with my iPhone 5s.




From emailing Tidal the mobile apps still have no set release date and by the sound of it that's where the buffering issues are and not on the desktop. So I guess audioquest is waiting for the mobile apps to be ready for Tidal since the desktop apps have no issues and are already released and working.


----------



## Topspin70

By buffering issues do u guys mean the 'stuttering' sounds? That's what I hear when playing MQA tidal albums on my DFB. Wonder if it's the same thing.


----------



## Citsur86

I get no buffering when streaming MQA through Tidal both when using and when not using my Dragonfly Red.  I listen mainly at work on our slow visitor network too so I wonder if the issue only pertains to certain types of computers (I'm using Mac) or what?  Bummer that we likely won't see the Dragonfly Update for a while now.  I wish they would just release the update - it's not like it's over the air or automatic.  Users need to manually install the update and if you have buffering issues, they could just instruct you to not update.
  
 All this assumes they don't mean that buffering issues appear when using the DFB/DFR with their update and Tidal.  In that case, it seems more like an issue on the side of AudioQuest though.They clearly said it wasn't their problem.


----------



## Saaki

I just picked up a red and have noticed with my OnePlus One running Android 6.0.1 that before I start USB audio player pro it will allow me to play through any of my other players but at a much reduced volume. In UAPP however I have control over the hardware volume. Is this the volume issue everyone has been taking about in regards to Android?


----------



## west0ne

saaki said:


> I just picked up a red and have noticed with my OnePlus One running Android 6.0.1 that before I start USB audio player pro it will allow me to play through any of my other players but at a much reduced volume. In UAPP however I have control over the hardware volume. Is this the volume issue everyone has been taking about in regards to Android?


 
 That's perfectly normal behaviour for the DFR/DFB and yes, that is the Android volume issue that everyone is referring to.


----------



## All-O-Gistics

I have been waiting for them to fix the DFR android audio issue but it doesn't seem like the fix is coming anytime soon. Might as well start looking at a different solution


----------



## Saaki

Thats a bit disappointing. I'm loving this little thing through UAPP, but it'd be wonderful to be able to use it with other players.


----------



## dacari

all-o-gistics said:


> I have been waiting for them to fix the DFR android audio issue but it doesn't seem like the fix is coming anytime soon. Might as well start looking at a different solution


 
  
 After all this months I lost all hope, but past week the answer from Audioquest gave me some hopes again, but now the problem to solve seems only the compatibility with MQA.


----------



## Saaki

dacari said:


> all-o-gistics said:
> 
> 
> > I have been waiting for them to fix the DFR android audio issue but it doesn't seem like the fix is coming anytime soon. Might as well start looking at a different solution
> ...




Sorry if someone has said this recently, but I'd couldn't seem to find it. What was their reply this last week that gave you hope?


----------



## dacari

saaki said:


> Sorry if someone has said this recently, but I'd couldn't seem to find it. What was their reply this last week that gave you hope?


 
  
 Here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/805832/new-dragonfly-black-and-red-discussion/2565#post_13225972


----------



## Saaki

Oh awesome! Thanks.


----------



## snip3r77

I'm using my iPhone 6S with the DFR. It's green in color using Spotify. Is that all to it( working fine ) ?
Volume is like 45%


----------



## psikey

saaki said:


> I just picked up a red and have noticed with my OnePlus One running Android 6.0.1 that before I start USB audio player pro it will allow me to play through any of my other players but at a much reduced volume. In UAPP however I have control over the hardware volume. Is this the volume issue everyone has been taking about in regards to Android?


 

 Yes, that's exactly the issue on Android.


----------



## Saaki

On iPhones does the Dragonfly Red hardware volume set to 100%, then you adjust the software volume through the phone? I'm wondering if I'll even be able to use my Sonorous headphones at 100% hardware volume since they have such a low impedance (16ohm).


----------



## shootertwist

^yup volume is adjusted through the phone


----------



## snip3r77

Using my iPhone 6s, got the random pops and click problem but I used my friend's iPhone 7, no issues using the same adaptor and DFR.
Is there a workaround. I'm using the slim CCK rather than the bulkier CCK that enables changing at the same time.

*Reboot my iPhone 6s now, we'd see*


----------



## shootertwist

^in my case at first i had no music pops with the slim camera connector but later on got them too, using the larger usb 3.0 camera connector solved it. Using it on an iphone 7+ on latest firmware


----------



## jegnyc

snip3r77 said:


> Using my iPhone 6s, got the random pops and click problem but I used my friend's iPhone 7, no issues using the same adaptor and DFR.
> Is there a workaround. I'm using the slim CCK rather than the bulkier CCK that enables changing at the same time.
> 
> *Reboot my iPhone 6s now, we'd see*




Your experience is similar to mine. I tested both my DFR and DFB with four iDevices (using the slim CCK). I had the problem on both DFs with one device but not with the others. The bulkier CCK eliminated the problem, but also the most recent version of iOS reduced it significantly (to the point that if I can enjoy the music) with the older CCK.


----------



## snip3r77

jegnyc said:


> Your experience is similar to mine. I tested both my DFR and DFB with four iDevices (using the slim CCK). I had the problem on both DFs with one device but not with the others. The bulkier CCK eliminated the problem, but also the most recent version of iOS reduced it significantly (to the point that if I can enjoy the music) with the older CCK.




My iPad Air and my friend's iphone 7s plus no problem but my 6s has issues . Maybe the next iOS patch solves it . I'm using the slim converter.


----------



## MrPanda

I have a library of mixed sample rate and bit depth recordings (44/16,88/24,96/24).  I usually use JRiver 22 or Roon to play the files.  Is there anyway to setup the Dragonfly Red so that it automatically switches to the right sample rate and bit depth?  I hate having to set it for the highest and depend on Windows 10 to upconvert or downconvert to make it work.
  
 Also, if you have to manually adjust sample rate and bit depth knowing what they're supposed to be, how could you stream MQA properly without adjusting it track by track listening to a streaming service?
  
 Thanks, I'm thinking of returning the DFR and getting something else.


----------



## SpiderNhan

mrpanda said:


> I have a library of mixed sample rate and bit depth recordings (44/16,88/24,96/24).  I usually use JRiver 22 or Roon to play the files.  Is there anyway to setup the Dragonfly Red so that it automatically switches to the right sample rate and bit depth?  I hate having to set it for the highest and depend on Windows 10 to upconvert or downconvert to make it work.
> 
> Also, if you have to manually adjust sample rate and bit depth knowing what they're supposed to be, how could you stream MQA properly without adjusting it track by track listening to a streaming service?
> 
> Thanks, I'm thinking of returning the DFR and getting something else.


 
 Proper bit rate changes for me using these settings:


----------



## irska

My 1st post here. I'm no audiophile but I do like the clarity of good equipment. Used to have a very nice HiFi but now with tenitis, I need HeadFi to hear what I used to from speakers. Enjoying the DragonFly Red/computer with DT880 (HD700) coming to compare). 
Any thoughts on running the Red through an iCAN SE?


----------



## emergencylies

Have you guys noticed any difference using this out of a USB 2 vs a USB 3?


----------



## Onny Izwan

There is a pronounced difference. There's more "air" in between the instruments and voices. Simple upgrade, indeed. In short, a USB 3.0 is an essential connection for the DragonFly Red.


----------



## wwyjoe

Second that. I do hear improvement with the USB 3 compared to the slim version. Not a significant leap, but audible in terms of the sound opening up with slightly more details (at least to my ears)


----------



## nirudhap

Maybe someone with measurement equipment can give a comparison.


----------



## Duncan

At the very most (considering that 24/96 sits firmly in the usb2 standard), it could be due to improved power on the port.


----------



## ronin22

Hi

I have a DR Red connected to a iPhone 7 using the slim/old CCK, and playing files right from the phone they would play for about a minute then stop so I have to keep going into my phone to press play again. Any body experience this? It's really annoying. I'm on the latest software. Thanks


----------



## JEspina456

ronin22 said:


> Hi
> 
> I have a DR Red connected to a iPhone 7 using the slim/old CCK, and playing files right from the phone they would play for about a minute then stop so I have to keep going into my phone to press play again. Any body experience this? It's really annoying. I'm on the latest software. Thanks


 
 I have the same exact problem.  Very frustrating.  I have read in earlier posts that you are supposed to get the larger CCK that can accept the lightning cable for additional power.  This seems very bulky and "non-portable."


----------



## ronin22

jespina456 said:


> I have the same exact problem.  Very frustrating.  I have read in earlier posts that you are supposed to get the larger CCK that can accept the lightning cable for additional power.  This seems very bulky and "non-portable."




Thanks for the quick response. I might have to try the larger one then, at this point it seems to be the lesser of two evils.


----------



## doniethegreat

Does this pair well Sony A35 plus WMC-NH10?


----------



## estreeter

I havent had the 'pops and clicks' issues, but the 3.5mm on my DFB is sketchy after a little over 12 months use : I admit that it has lived a hard life in my backpack etc but that goes for every other budget portable DAC/amp I've owned. I dont have to rotate the headphone jack in any of my other gear to get a worthwhile connection - its disappointing in a product that is otherwise superb VFM.


----------



## grig

any chance to connect a fiio x1 with a dragonfly ?


----------



## SpiderNhan

grig said:


> any chance to connect a fiio x1 with a dragonfly ?



Nope. X1 doesn't support OTG.


----------



## Saaki

Does the Dragonfly Black have volume issues with Android, or is it just a thing with the Dragonfly Red?


----------



## CactusPete23

Both black and red have some issues, on some android phones with some applications.  With USB Audio Player Pro, there are zero volume issues with either.. (IMHO and My experience)


----------



## Saaki

Ah yes, I've found that to be the case with the DDR I have and my OnePlus One. However it would be really nice to be able to use other apps as well... But there in lies the problem!


----------



## west0ne

The OnePlus One is supposedly easy enough to Root so if you're willing you can take that approach to gain full access to volume of the DFB/DFR at a system level and get full volume in any app, it doesn't get over the re-sampling issue though.


----------



## Devodonaldson

*ANDROID phone turned DAP with dfr*
I've been using the DFR since last April. In general, I love how it has opened my eyes (ears) to enjoying many different genres of music. I'm an Android guy hands down, and had previously been using UAPP for my streaming needs with Tidal. This was great when I was on WIFI, but the fact that stored Tidal tracks can't be played always made me sad. I decided to spend a little cash and stop using my phone for music and have a dap. After some research I realized that all Android based dap's were running Android 4.4.4, come to find out it is because this is the last version of Android where usb audio wasn't natively included, therefore no automatic up sampling. 2014 Sony Z3 does hifi playback over USB audio on the original 4.4.4 rom. I purchased a used z3 for approx $100, rooted, and rolled it back to the original 4.4.4 rom. Now I have my dfr connected and when using Tidal app natively I get that beautiful green color showing 44.1 and for downloaded music, and for locally stored flac files I can play them in Google Play music, and the dfr color changes based on sampling rate of the track. Love my zx3 turned DAP w/dfr for a fraction of the cost of a dedicated DAP.


----------



## Saaki

I already have my phone rooted and whatnot so theoretically the volumes not an issue if I find a system work around? Anyone know how I would go about doing this?

I don't totally understand the resampling however. It sounds like from what devodonaldson says that all Android OS after 4.4.4 resample automatically.


----------



## west0ne

saaki said:


> I already have my phone rooted and whatnot so theoretically the volumes not an issue if I find a system work around? Anyone know how I would go about doing this?
> 
> I don't totally understand the resampling however. It sounds like from what devodonaldson says that all Android OS after 4.4.4 resample automatically.




If you have a look at some of my previous posts in this thread there are instructions on how to deal with the volume issues on rooted devices.

It doesn't address resampling so you are likely to find everything plays back at a set bitrate, although even this can vary from device to device.

If you're feeling brave you can edit the 'build.prop' and 'audio_policy.conf' files to get everything that plays through system to play at 44100, anything using UAPP in bitperfect mode will still play at the correct rate.


----------



## Saaki

Ah ok cool! Thanks for the help!
  
 I found your post and was able to implement it. Now does AlsaMixer set the Dragonfly to 100% each time I restart my phone automatically? Any lead on how to set the 'build.prop' and 'audio_policy.conf' files to 44100?


----------



## west0ne

AlsaMixer won't reset your DF to 100% on connection. I just use Tasker to run the command everytime I plug in.

Editing the system files is more tricky, it worked on my S5 and on a Moto G, both running CM13 but not on my S7E with rooted stock. Your luck may vary.

Backup fully before amending your system files and make sure you are able to restore from a custom recovery.

'audio_policy.conf' - look for the entry for USB_DEVICE and change the number against sample rate to 44100 and get rid of anything else (most likely 48000).

For 'build.prop' I suggest you do some searching for your specific device and ROM as the entries may vary. I will follow up with my entries later. 

As noted these changes mean my S5 and Moto G now output all system audio at 44100 but I don't know if Android is doing anything with the audio in the background still and as the volume buttons still work and are software there is obviously some processing going on so it isn't bitperfect. These changes also mean than audio at higher rates than 44100 end up being out at 44100 unless anew app that can talk to the DAC directly is used. This works for me as I mainly stream Spotify and for anything else use UAPP. My S5 is now effectively my DAP and my S7E is my daily use phone.


----------



## Saaki

Awesome. Thanks for all the information! I'll give it a whirl when I have a bit more time.

On another note, are there *any* DACs that work with Android without tweaking? After reading a lot of posts it seems like even if AQ does update the dragonfly firmware we may still be running into these issues.


----------



## Devodonaldson

west0ne said:


> AlsaMixer won't reset your DF to 100% on connection. I just use Tasker to run the command everytime I plug in.
> 
> Editing the system files is more tricky, it worked on my S5 and on a Moto G, both running CM13 but not on my S7E with rooted stock. Your luck may vary.
> 
> ...


I give you major credit. I couldn't bare to root my s7e, simply because I could not stand to go without Samsung pay. With their rewards program, and the smart way I have decided to use it to max out rewards for 50 transactions a month, I'm getting a $50 visa card from them every 4 months just for using the service. So, absolutely can't give that up to root.


----------



## Duncan

Digging up one of my very old thoughts, decided to unplug one of my Jitterbugs from my PC, and connected it to the DFR and my G5 cellphone, it's beyond placebo, the difference it makes... The sound is a fair bit tighter, more cohesive... A great $50 investment. 

This is with using UAPP and bit perfect playback, so usual caveat, mileage may vary in other scenarios...

Blurry bus photo for authenticity...


----------



## west0ne

saaki said:


> Awesome. Thanks for all the information! I'll give it a whirl when I have a bit more time.
> 
> On another note, are there *any* DACs that work with Android without tweaking? After reading a lot of posts it seems like even if AQ does update the dragonfly firmware we may still be running into these issues.


 
 When a DAC handshakes with the host it tells it what Bit Depth and Bitrates it can handle along with other information about the number of channels, min/max and default volume. The DACs I have tried all tell the host to set the default hardware volume to 100%, you can still use the Android volume controls but DAC/Amp setups that have a volume pot are controlled by the pot. For some reason Audioquest decided to set the default hardware volume to around 66% with no way to change it on Android without rooting.
  
 The other issue with Android is that all audio (unless using UAPP) goes through the Android audio system (Audio Flinger) this resamples the audio and also applies some EQ; so far as I am aware there is no way around this other than the method used by UAPP which completely bypasses the Android audio system.
  
 USB audio can be hit and miss with Android, some combinations of DAC & Phone will work with other whilst other combinations won't. It's always best to ask to see if someone is successfully using the same combination that you are looking to use.


----------



## brokenhat

Have any iPhone people compared the two Apple to USB adapters? One is quite a bit bigger and more expensive but lets you charge at the same time......


----------



## pofdstudios

brokenhat said:


> Have any iPhone people compared the two Apple to USB adapters? One is quite a bit bigger and more expensive but lets you charge at the same time......


 

 Yes I have. The dragonfly Red is quite a draw on battery life so I now use the bigger one exclusively as pictured 

 A little self adhesive Velcro and everything stays nice and secure


----------



## nicdub

Curious if anyone has had problems with the Red, such as weird waves of digital noise suddenly appearing?  I have had this happen a number of times, even when using the Wyrd, couldn't figure out if it was my Mac, which is a little older, or the Red.


----------



## hornytoad

brokenhat said:


> Have any iPhone people compared the two Apple to USB adapters? One is quite a bit bigger and more expensive but lets you charge at the same time......



It's not even close . The new Apple Cck with the power port has significantly better audio quality and no crackles or pops like I had with the older version .


----------



## foreverzer0

nicdub said:


> Curious if anyone has had problems with the Red, such as weird waves of digital noise suddenly appearing?  I have had this happen a number of times, even when using the Wyrd, couldn't figure out if it was my Mac, which is a little older, or the Red.


 
  
 I did for two different DFR's, returned both and gave up. Unfortunate, cause I like the sound for such a form factor. I chalk it up to ungraceful handling of overlapping/changing frequency rates e.g. music at 44.1khz then a system sound plays at 48khz concurrently. Same with my iPhone when I'm watching a movie and I get a notification.


----------



## Saaki

west0ne said:


> AlsaMixer won't reset your DF to 100% on connection. I just use Tasker to run the command everytime I plug in.
> 
> Editing the system files is more tricky, it worked on my S5 and on a Moto G, both running CM13 but not on my S7E with rooted stock. Your luck may vary.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Well, the 'audio_policy.conf' trick worked like a charm! Now I can play through Tidal or Spotify without any sort or resampling, and with the root fix I can set the Dragonfly's volume. Thank you very much sir! You have solved all my problems. One last question, how do you have Tasker set up to run when you attach the Dragonfly?


----------



## Saaki

I figured it out. I set Tasker to run "alsa_amixer -c1 set PCM 100%" (using Root) when a USB Audio Device is attached. It is fairly reliable and seems to also let me use Viper4Android. Super nice because now I can play all my audio including Tidal and Spotify through my DFR. By the way, I'm running Exodus Marshmellow 6.0.1 on a OnePlus One with Franco Kernal.
  
 Just a rundown for anyone else who might want to do this (note: all credit for how to do this goes to west0ne, I just wanted to put in all in one place for rooted Android users):
***DO THIS AT YOUR OWN RISK***
  
  
*1. Changing the Dragonfly volume setting through Android:*
  
 First get Alsamixer, then you will need a terminal shell like Terminal Emulator or a script runner like $cripter or Tasker.
  
 Then in a terminal type:-
  
 su
 alsa_aplay -l
  
 This will list the audio devices available on your phone, if you connected the Dragonfly after booting the phone you will probably find that it is 'Card 1'. You will need this for next bit.
  
 In a terminal type:-
  
 su
 alsa_amixer -c1 set PCM 100%
  
 The '-c1' flag points to the Dragonfly and assumes it is 'Card 1'  change the '-c1' flag to a different number depending on the number of your card.
  
 You can also change the PCM setting, you could use a percentage or a number on the DFB the volume settings are from 0-64 so you could use PCM 32 for example which would be the same at 50%.
  
 The volume buttons on the phone still work to change the volume but they don't affect the internal hardware of the Dragonfly so they act like software volume controls.
  
 The volume will reset each time you reboot your phone or remove the Dragonfly, so you can use Tasker to automate the volume change each time you attach the Dragonfly.
  

*2. Change sample rate on your Android by editing 'audio_policy.conf' *
  
 Using a file explorer navigate to root then /etc (or /system/etc). Open 'audio_policy.conf". Scroll down and find the area that says "USB_DEVICE". Change the sample rate to 44100, and get rid of anything else. Mine said "dynamic", it might also say something like "44100 | 48000". Change it so it says just 44100.
  
 After editing mine looked like this:

```
[color=rgb(69, 69, 69)] usb { outputs { usb_accessory { sampling_rates 44100 channel_masks AUDIO_CHANNEL_OUT_STEREO formats AUDIO_FORMAT_PCM_16_BIT devices AUDIO_DEVICE_OUT_USB_ACCESSORY } usb_device { sampling_rates 44100 channel_masks AUDIO_CHANNEL_OUT_STEREO formats AUDIO_FORMAT_PCM_16_BIT devices AUDIO_DEVICE_OUT_USB_DEVICE } } }[/color]
```
  
 Then save. Reboot your phone and try playing audio through a non-UAPP player (note: Do not let UAPP launch when the DAC is attached. If you already set this preference, removed it in the app's settings). You should get the green LED through your Dragonfly if it worked. If not, make sure it saved correctly.
  
 Thanks again for the help west0ne! I hope this can help someone else... I'm still hopeful the firmware update will solve these problems, but in the meantime I'm happy this works.


----------



## birdman

west0ne said:


> AlsaMixer won't reset your DF to 100% on connection. I just use Tasker to run the command everytime I plug in.
> 
> Editing the system files is more tricky, it worked on my S5 and on a Moto G, both running CM13 but not on my S7E with rooted stock. Your luck may vary.
> 
> ...


 
 I'm very interested in trying this. In audio_policy.conf I'm seeing a few things related to usb device, not sure which one(s) to change. Would you take a look at my screenshot and let me know what you think? I'm rooted and used to making changes in build.prop, so I'm comfortable with the risks. I use Spotify enough that it's worth trying.


----------



## west0ne

saaki said:


> Well, the 'audio_policy.conf' trick worked like a charm! Now I can play through Tidal or Spotify without any sort or resampling, and with the root fix I can set the Dragonfly's volume. Thank you very much sir! You have solved all my problems. One last question, how do you have Tasker set up to run when you attach the Dragonfly?


 
 In Tasker I have created a task called USB AUDIO with the following steps
  
 1. Silent Mode - Set system to vibrate from 'Audio' (this stops any system sounds being passed to the USB Audio device which can cause odd noises)
 2. Media Volume 3 - Set the media volume to 3 from 'Audio' (drops the system volume level so that you don't hurt your ears with IEMs, you can adjust the volume later with the volume buttons)
 3. Run Shell - Command 'su -c sh /sdcard/Scripts/USB.sh' you need to select 'root' (this will run a script to set the DF volume to 100%, script below)
 4. Launch App - I have mine launch Spotify but you could launch your favourite music app or leave this stage out.
  
 I then created a Profile called USB Audio
  
 1. State - Select 'Hardware' then 'USB Connected' then in class select 'Audio'
 2. Select your 'USB AUDIO' task.
 3. Remember to activate Tasker. On first run you will also have to grant root permission and opt to remember your choice.
  
 When you plug in any USB audio device the script will run.
  
 The shell script is as follows and should be saved in '/sdcard/Scripts' , I created the 'Scripts' directory myself but you may already have one if another app has created it.
  
_#!/system/bin/sh_
_alsa_amixer -c1 -q set PCM 100%_


----------



## Saaki

Birdman, mine looked the same as yours. Don't worry about anything under "inputs". Under "usb_device" change everything so it matches whats under "usb_accessory", except for the last entry which stays the same.
  
 So:

```
[color=rgb(69, 69, 69)] usb_device { sampling_rates 44100 channel_masks AUDIO_CHANNEL_OUT_STEREO formats AUDIO_FORMAT_PCM_16_BIT devices AUDIO_DEVICE_OUT_USB_DEVICE[/color]
```


----------



## west0ne

birdman said:


> I'm very interested in trying this. In audio_policy.conf I'm seeing a few things related to usb device, not sure which one(s) to change. Would you take a look at my screenshot and let me know what you think? I'm rooted and used to making changes in build.prop, so I'm comfortable with the risks. I use Spotify enough that it's worth trying.


 
 In your case under the first 'usb_device' not the second under inputs change the following
  
 'sampling_rates' dynamic to 'sampling_rates 44100' then reboot.
  
 In my 'build.prop' I added the following; I would say changing this is more risky than changing the 'audio_policy.conf' and may or may not work on any given device.
  
 #Audio Tweaks
 af.resample=44100
 af.resampler.quality=255
 ro.audio.samplerate=44100
 persist.af.resampler.quality=255
 persist.audio.samplerate=44100
 persist.audio.pcm.samplerste=44100
 ro.audio.pcm.samplerate=44100
 persist.af.resample=44100
 persist.pm.dyn_samplingrate=1
  
  
  
 I have also install Viper4Android which deletes the built in EQ software, this may also have an impact on audio quality as I could ever see a way of completely turning off the EQ on my S7E for example and there was a noticeable change in sound when I froze 'Sound Alive' and 'Adapt Sound', unfortunately it kept throwing out errors so it was a case of either run them or run something else and as V4A had more options I ran that instead.
  
 Finally it is worth saying that I enjoy tinkering which is why I've been playing with the system audio but in truth the impact is minimal and possible not worth the effort in the end.


----------



## birdman

saaki said:


> Birdman, mine looked the same as yours. Don't worry about anything under "inputs". Under "usb_device" change everything so it matches whats under "usb_accessory", except for the last entry which stays the same.
> 
> So:
> 
> ...


 
 Strange results for me. I tried your suggested changes and also tried only changing the sampling_rates line as west0ne suggested. Dragonfly light turned green, but sound wasn't so good to my ears. Sound (especially highs) was really sibilant and tinny, extremely so. I do have V4A ARISE installed, which adds some libraries, but this shouldn't affect anything since I'm bypassing that through USB, right?
  
 Thanks, and if you can think of something I missed I'll try again (tomorrow--time to sleep now 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





)


----------



## 6a6uH BHyK

Hi,
  
 I own DragonFly Red and Black at this moment, use them connected to the MacBook via JitterBug, source - iTunes. Seems I have a problem with powering/amping - when using Red with my NightHawks, I put macOS sound level at 5th "level/mark" of system volume. Simultaneously connected Black produce same volume level right at 1.5th mark. This is very strange, taking into account both DAC's specifications. Could You please tell, have anyone experiences similar? Maybe one of my Black or Red is defective?


----------



## CactusPete23

It's normal.  Black has analog volume control, red has digital.  Digital is straight line..  Analog is not.  DFR will get louder at max volume than the DFB


----------



## 6a6uH BHyK

cactuspete23 said:


> It's normal.  Black has analog volume control, red has digital.  Digital is straight line..  Analog is not.  DFR will get louder at max volume than the DFB


 

 But when I compared to the 1.2 version, which also has a analog control, still Black, having less power, sounds more louder ...


----------



## Saaki

birdman said:


> saaki said:
> 
> 
> > Birdman, mine looked the same as yours. Don't worry about anything under "inputs". Under "usb_device" change everything so it matches whats under "usb_accessory", except for the last entry which stays the same.
> ...




Hmmm... I'm not sure. From what I can tell mine sounds fine after the edits. Maybe it has something to do with V4A, but I'm running that as well and it seems fine. Sorry, I wish I could be of more help!


----------



## birdman

saaki said:


> Hmmm... I'm not sure. From what I can tell mine sounds fine after the edits. Maybe it has something to do with V4A, but I'm running that as well and it seems fine. Sorry, I wish I could be of more help


 
 When I have time I'll play around with it some more, there are a couple things that I'm thinking may be involved. Will report back if I get something working. Thanks.


----------



## dmance

I have a DragonFly Red driving a main listening room setup. About $10k of components and cables. 

I've had great success running the Red through a Musical Paradise MP-U1 to a plain windows 10 laptop and 'Process Lasso' windows app to dynamically prioritise my JRiver and audio drivers. So I guess the DAC is getting a pure +5V feed and the data being sent on USB are very close to 100%. The DAC and BITs are in an ideal environment.

The Red in this setup smokes many DACs I've heard. I think I can detect the Sabre sound signature but overall it's very very good.

Just FYI...
Dan


----------



## Saaki

birdman said:


> saaki said:
> 
> 
> > Hmmm... I'm not sure. From what I can tell mine sounds fine after the edits. Maybe it has something to do with V4A, but I'm running that as well and it seems fine. Sorry, I wish I could be of more help
> ...




Yes please do report back. It's quite encouraging that there is some way to get things to operate without UAPP. However I do hope some of these issues are addressed by AQ soon. In the meantime let's tinker!


----------



## birdman

saaki said:


> Yes please do report back. It's quite encouraging that there is some way to get things to operate without UAPP. However I do hope some of these issues are addressed by AQ soon. In the meantime let's tinker!


 
 It's working now, DFB is lit green in Spotify and it sounds great. The only thing I did different this time was to reinstall V4A after making the change in audio_policy. I only changed the sampling_rates line, not the two below it. Do you think the other two make a difference? 
  
 Youtube even sounds better. 
  
 Thanks, this is great.


----------



## Saaki

birdman said:


> saaki said:
> 
> 
> > Yes please do report back. It's quite encouraging that there is some way to get things to operate without UAPP. However I do hope some of these issues are addressed by AQ soon. In the meantime let's tinker!
> ...




Awesome news! Thanks for the update. It seems like it's not too huge a fix for us on rooted Android. Personally I'll never have anything else (other than non-root Android, def never going to iPhone). I don't know if the changes other than the sampling rate line change anything, but I'll try that myself and report back.


----------



## Richard Wray

I've got a good (but old) stereo that I'm currently driving via a bluetooth dongle.
  
 I'm also a fan of Tidal and obviously Bluetooth doesn't cut it (currently using Sony MDR-ADACs to listen)
  
 My plan is to use an old MacBook Air that I'm about to retire as the source into my stereo. 
  
 Questions is, is the the Dragonfly Red appropriate for driving the stereo?
  
 (Sorry if this has been answered before)


----------



## Saaki

Should be! If you look a few post up dmance is using the Dragonfly Red as a source for a $10k system in his home. I don't have anything like that but have been very happy with it for both a source for my old MacBook Pro and my Android phone. I expect you will be very happy. Also, if you order from Amazon, you basically have a 30 trial period in which you can try and return if you don't like it. So its worth the shot! Report back how you like it if you decide to make the plunge.


----------



## pufftissue

torq said:


> It's made MUCH easier by not having to deal with the near-random vagaries of the Android Audio subsystem.
> 
> iPhone/iPad ... completely predictable.
> 
> ...


 
 I love choice. Android is an awesome theory.  But it's the wild wild west and it comes down to a choice: do you want something that works and sacrifice your principles (most people don't want to be shackled, but that's what Apple does) or something that doesn't and maintain your freedom to do whatever you want and use weeks trying to get it to work with Android. 
 This has been my experience with basically everything Android....wow hardware is awesome, we're always one software update away from making it just work.  It's like Windows all over again. Once I realized that I was spending all kinds of time toying around to make Android do what I want it to do, instead of listening to music, I just decided to stick with iPhone and mac.  
 Tech is hard and the ease with which things are knocked off doesn't mean it's easy to produce a stable product. I honestly don't know if Apple does more detailed work, but simply by ensuring uniformity they eliminate large swaths of bugs in every single product. They may well stand out because of the chaos of the Android world and not because of any superior engineering.
  
 Regarding my take on the dragonfly black vs red, I like the red better.  The timbre of the black is not even worse, the sound may be a bit warmer, but red's bass, space between the notes, tightness, clarity are better to me.  I think the red is superior to the iPhone's headphone out and the macbook 2016's headphone out.  Like everyone else here, there is a bigger improvement with the macbook 2016 lines than with the iphone 7.  
  
 That said, the iPhone 7 and macbook 2016 are no slouches.  You could listen to them straight and be happy.  I hear no intereference or background hiss.  It's because of how good the iPhone 7 is straight out of the headphone out that I'm sort of on the fence now of whether I really need the red or black.  I feel the black isn't necessary and so the decision for me is the red.  That is, the red is what tickles me right and the black seems like a different flavor, while the red is objectively better than the iPhone 7.  
  
 I am in the minority, but the volume on both of these black and red is too loud.   My IEMs must be sensitive and I listen at low volumes.  One bar is already too loud in a library setting.  With the red since the volume is digitally controlled or something, I can't get finer volume increments.  The black is way too loud but at least I can really make the volume tiny.  
 So unless I jailbreak, I have no idea how to make the red have finer volume steps.


----------



## Disadadi

Has anyone got experience of DFR paired with Oneplus 3T? I am wondering if I should order the OTG cable and test it out myself.


----------



## zacster

I just put my DFB into my main system, using an iPhone7 and CCK-3.  I'm using Tidal Hifi, to feed my entirely DIY system, an Aikido pre-amp, and a 6B4G push-pull amp, and large Proac 2.5 clone speakers.  I usually either listen to vinyl when I'm serious, or just put Alexa to work with Amazon prime or Tunein Radio for background. 
  
 I'll have to say this is the best digital I've ever heard on MY system.  I basically gave up a few years ago when I upgraded my vinyl system and it just blows digital away.  But this sounds good enough to go back.  My main CD player is an Oppo BDP-93, I've used various digital streaming services, play computer stored music through my Oppo.  None of them were ever engaging.  This is.  Maybe I've missed the boat over the last few years with the latest DACs improving the digital sound, but even at audio shows they never sound good to my ears. But then, nothing ever sounds good at these shows (the reason I didn't go to CanJam a few weeks ago even though I live in NYC and work on 42nd St.)
  
 In any event, I cancelled my Tidal subscription after the trial runs out tomorrow since I wasn't using it enough.  When the catalog of Masters expands maybe I'll try it again, hopefully with an iPhone app that'll support them.
  
 And when is Audioquest going to release their upgrade???


----------



## pister999

Hi everyone! I'm using a Dragonfly Black with rooted Oneplus 3
 Many thanks to West0ne for his indications to improve the use of DFs on Android! (and to Saaki for summering up)
  
 For me Volume change via Alsamixer worked flawlessly, but I am unable to change sample rate, tried both audio_policy.conf and build.prop methods.
 I copied the files to my pc, modified them and then moved the files with TWRP file manager (also did a chmod 755 after) and verified that the files are correctly changed after reboot. Tried also a rom dirty reinstallation (I had ARISE before) and a dalvik/art and cache wipe.
 But DF led is always magenta.
 Any idea? Any help would be really appreciated!


----------



## Saaki

pister999 said:


> Hi everyone! I'm using a Dragonfly Black with rooted Oneplus 3
> Many thanks to West0ne for his indications to improve the use of DFs on Android! (and to Saaki for summering up)
> 
> For me Volume change via Alsamixer worked flawlessly, but I am unable to change sample rate, tried both audio_policy.conf and build.prop methods.
> ...




Are you sure they are saving properly? Have you been able to open them on the phone using a root file explorer such as ES file explorer? When I did it I had trouble getting it to save the first couple times then I finally used ES file explorer in Android to edit and save which worked.


----------



## Devodonaldson

pister999 said:


> Hi everyone! I'm using a Dragonfly Black with rooted Oneplus 3
> Many thanks to West0ne for his indications to improve the use of DFs on Android! (and to Saaki for summering up)
> 
> For me Volume change via Alsamixer worked flawlessly, but I am unable to change sample rate, tried both audio_policy.conf and build.prop methods.
> ...


 post a screenshot of the new audio policy file under system etc so we can verify the changes. Just did it on 2 different phones without issue.


----------



## Tribble

Has anyone else had issues with the Dragonfly Red not playing (no sound output) when changing to a track with a different sample rate than the previously played one?
  
 **ETA: It's just now done it when changing tracks manually within an album, no change in sample rate.**
  
 I'm using my Windows 7 laptop, foobar2000, ASIO output plugin, and everything works fine until (not every time, but often) the sample rate changes. Foobar appears to be playing normally but no sound comes from the Dragonfly. If I press Stop and Play on foobar, the light on the Dragonfly flickers again and it then plays normally.
  
 I cannot tell if the issue is with the Dragonfly, or something on my system.
  
 Another issue I have is that the Dragonfly is often *much* too loud with my NightOwls, causing me to have Windows' volume control at only 4 or 5 (out of 100 on the slider) on some albums for a comfortable listening level. Effectively that gives me only a few steps of volume from too quiet to ear splitting. At the moment I'm listening to a quieter one and even here I can't go above 15/100 on the slider without it being uncomfortably loud. I guess the Red is just a bad match for the NightOwls, despite them being from the same stable.
  
 Despite the above, I can't fault the actual sound from the Dragonfly in the NightOwls, so I'm really hoping to find some solutions other than returning the Dragonfly and buying an IDAC2.


----------



## pister999

Here the screen of my audio_policy.config (link, I am not able to attach an image)
  
 http://it.tinypic.com/r/5zl1jb/9
  
 Using stock OxygenOs (Nougat)
 Thanks for the help!


----------



## SpiderNhan

I don't know what the hell is happening but call me dumbfounded, astounded and euphoric. Forgive the fact that this is only an initial listen, but damned if I've had a harder time discerning differences between DACs. Snake oil or not, the Jitterbug is doing something to my PC and music has never sounded this good coming from my system. Maybe it's new toy syndrome. Maybe it's placebo. I'll give more detailed impressions after this amazeballs feeling wears off, but something is definitely different and I love it.


----------



## birdman

pister999 said:


> Here the screen of my audio_policy.config (link, I am not able to attach an image)
> 
> http://it.tinypic.com/r/5zl1jb/9
> 
> ...


 
 Two things that I'd check. One, in Developer options under Select USB Configuration, do you have MTP checked? I do, Audio Source also seems to work. You could play around with this.
  
 Different root methods (and SElinux mode, enforcing or permissive) can affect whether system audio changes work or not, and it may behave differently with different devices. People using V4A ARISE have learned this. I'm using SuperSU, are you using the OxygenOS native root, SuperSU, or what? Not sure what root method is being used by the others who've gotten this to work.
  
 I use Solid Explorer to change root files, it works great, no need to do it outside the phone.


----------



## dmance

spidernhan said:


> I don't know what the hell is happening but call me dumbfounded, astounded and euphoric. Forgive the fact that this is only an initial listen, but damned if I've had a harder time discerning differences between DACs. Snake oil or not, the Jitterbug is doing something to my PC and music has never sounded this good coming from my system. Maybe it's new toy syndrome. Maybe it's placebo. I'll give more detailed impressions after this amazeballs feeling wears off, but something is definitely different and I love it.


 
  
 SpiderNhan, I'm also fully enjoying my Dragonfly Red with jitterbug  playing from a Lenovo laptop.  I also have a Musical Paradise MP-U1 to provide ultra clean +5V to the Dragonfly.  So little cost ... so much performance.  I am trying to convince myself I no longer need to spend ridiculous amounts on a DAC. 
  
 Dan


----------



## Devodonaldson

dmance said:


> SpiderNhan, I'm also fully enjoying my Dragonfly Red with jitterbug  playing from a Lenovo laptop.  I also have a Musical Paradise MP-U1 to provide ultra clean +5V to the Dragonfly.  So little cost ... so much performance.  I am trying to convince myself I no longer need to spend ridiculous amounts on a DAC.
> 
> Dan


is anyone aware of a noticeable sonic improvement using the jitterbug on a mobile device. Looking I'd it would add a little sweetness to my Sony z3 turned dap with the dfr


----------



## SpiderNhan

devodonaldson said:


> is anyone aware of a noticeable sonic improvement using the jitterbug on a mobile device. Looking I'd it would add a little sweetness to my Sony z3 turned dap with the dfr


 
 The Jitterbug is a strange critter. When I first tried using it with my Galaxy Note SGH-I717, it lit up the Dragonfly but wouldn't play any music through it. Ditto when I tried the Jitterbug with a USB 3.0 port on my PC. It worked fine with my Galaxy S6 Active SM-G890A, but I didn't notice any sonic differences. It wasn't until I popped it into a USB 2.0 port, plugged the Fly/Bug combo into my speakers, and started Tidal that my eyes went wide with confused incredulity.
  
 This device is very much of the YMMV persuasion.


----------



## Saaki

SpiderNhan, do you have both USB 2.0 and 3.0 ports on your PC?


----------



## SpiderNhan

saaki said:


> SpiderNhan, do you have both USB 2.0 and 3.0 ports on your PC?



Yes. Two USB 3.0 ports and six USB 2.0 ports.


----------



## Saaki

Ah cool. Was just wondering... It's strange you get such different results depending on which port you used. When I was at NYC CanJam and demoed the Dragonfly with the Jitterbug on a the MacBook Pro at the Audioquest booth I could tell the difference with and without. I know all those ports are 3.0, but perhaps that's a Windows/OSX thing... I'm considering getting one for my Fulla 2 which is connected to my 2012 MacBook Pro on 3.0 ports. There is a bit of hissing in the system right now.


----------



## AsgarD222

Hi everybody , i own a Dragonfly Black which i like a lot with a Meze 99C and working like a charm on my laptop and my galaxy s5. Recently i got a new phone (samsung galaxy a5 2016) and , when i connect the dragonfly to the otg , it lights up but there is no sound. My new phone have the marshmallow version of android , is that the problem? I'm sorry if the answer was already given but i searched through a lot of pages and i didn't find one ( and of course sorry for my bad english  ) . Thank you ! 

Edit : My phone is OTG compatible , it recognize my USB key without any problem.
I listen music most of the time from Spotify.


----------



## west0ne

asgard222 said:


> Hi everybody , i own a Dragonfly Black which i like a lot with a Meze 99C and working like a charm on my laptop and my galaxy s5. Recently i got a new phone (samsung galaxy a5 2016) and , when i connect the dragonfly to the otg , it lights up but there is no sound. My new phone have the marshmallow version of android , is that the problem? I'm sorry if the answer was already given but i searched through a lot of pages and i didn't find one ( and of course sorry for my bad english
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 ​I have exactly the same issue with the Samsung Galaxy Tab A. Somewhere there is an issue with the way in which the Galaxy detects the 'Channel Masks' on the Dragonfly, it defaults the LEFT & RIGHT channel volumes to 0. Even though my Tab A is rooted and I have Alsa installed I can't adjust the channel volumes because they are locked in at a hardware level.
  
 I think that this is an issue with the Android build from Samsung and I am not sure that there is a way around this without installing a custom ROM that isn't built from stock. I have successfully used other DAC/Amp setups with the Galaxy Tab so you may want to try something different.


----------



## AsgarD222

west0ne said:


> ​I have exactly the same issue with the Samsung Galaxy Tab A. Somewhere there is an issue with the way in which the Galaxy detects the 'Channel Masks' on the Dragonfly, it defaults the LEFT & RIGHT channel volumes to 0. Even though my Tab A is rooted and I have Alsa installed I can't adjust the channel volumes because they are locked in at a hardware level.
> 
> I think that this is an issue with the Android build from Samsung and I am not sure that there is a way around this without installing a custom ROM that isn't built from stock. I have successfully used other DAC/Amp setups with the Galaxy Tab so you may want to try something different.



 


Oh i thought it could possibly work after a root 
Try something different? I would like to but i bought the dragonfly a month ago and there is no way to turn it back ( and i'm not ready to put an other hundred euros for another DAC)


----------



## west0ne

@AsgarD222 - I suggest you download the trial version of USB Audio Player Pro [UAPP] and make sure that you can play audio through your Dragonfly with that. It bypasses Android audio, if that works then it is definitely an issue with the Android implementation on that device. If the DFB doesn't work with UAPP then it's an issue with USB OTG on your device which I doubt if is glowing magenta, if it is glowing red then you are getting power but no data.
  
 One other thing to try is in the Developer menu change the USB setting to USB audio and make sure the setting for USB Audio routing is set correctly (I doubt that these will work but it's worth a try before giving up).
  
 You could always do what I've done and install a custom ROM on your old S5, strip out everything other than audio apps and use it as a dedicated DAP, with everything stripped out it is very fast and the battery lasts for a long time; if you're happy with the sound of the DFB out of the S5 it's as good as any dedicated DAP and you already own all the hardware you need so no extra outlay.


----------



## AsgarD222

west0ne said:


> @AsgarD222 - I suggest you download the trial version of USB Audio Player Pro [UAPP] and make sure that you can play audio through your Dragonfly with that. It bypasses Android audio, if that works then it is definitely an issue with the Android implementation on that device. If the DFB doesn't work with UAPP then it's an issue with USB OTG on your device which I doubt if is glowing magenta, if it is glowing red then you are getting power but no data.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 


I'm already using my S5 as a DAP but it ruin the "all-in-one" quality of the DFB 
Thank you very much for your recommandations , i'll try that for sure.


----------



## Mike Oliveira

Hey guys! 
  
 Just ordered a DFBlack to use mostly with a Macbook Pro/iPhone SE > Spotify Premium/some FLAC albuns that i have >Apple Earpods (kill me but i really like the sound of them )
  
 Do i have to setup something special to get the best of this setup either on the macbook or the iphone? I see so many people, mostly on android phones and Windows PC's using third part programs and using codes to get the best of the DF that im getting a bit worried of not getting this thing to work properly.
  
 Anyway, anyone using a similar setup that could give me some tips?
  
 Thanks


----------



## west0ne

@Mike Oliveira - There is a setup guide in the box for use with Mac, it's been a while since I've used Mac but the setup looks fairly easy but you'll want the right sample rates, my son sometimes uses my DFB with his MBP and he has had no issues with it. With iPhone it should just be plug'n'play but you will obviously need the CCK. If you are playing Hi-Res music you may have to buy an app, I think my son uses the Onkyo app for Hi-Res.
  
 Some uses have reported issues with the iPhone and recommend the newer USB 3 version of the CCK. Remember the DF isn't MFi certified.


----------



## miki69

Hello forum friends,
  
*I wanted to share my experience with original Dragonfly v1.0 (DF1) vs Dragonfly Black (DFB).*
  
 My home setup: Yamaha RX-797 + Kef R300
 At work: Laptop + Ath-MSR7
 Music Collection: 3/4 320 kbps, 1/4 Flac format
  
 Main reason why I purchased DF1 was to eliminate noise/static coming from laptop audio jack as I have all my music stored on laptop, hooked up directly into receiver.
  
 DF1 solved this issue great, plus it added some serious punch to music. However, after initial hype, upon closer inspection and hours of listening, my impression with DF1 was - "artificially" boosted highs, like listening through equalizers where you max all high frequencies. If was harsh, over the edge, in your face...But in time, I got used to it and would never come back to old way (without DF1).
  
 Then DFB came along. To be honest, the only reason I purchased it this time, is I'm too lazy to carry DF1 to work every day, so I wanted to have 2 Dragonflys, one for home, one for office.
  
*Sound difference*
  First, let me say I'm not an audiophile, nor I have audiophile ears. I  hear no difference in 320 vs Flac, DFB out-of-the-box sounded just they way I wanted! More melodic is the correct word. While DF1 was too harsh, DFB did just fine, pronounced highs (but not over the edge), and solid bass. However with KEF R300 first impression was - where are the trebles? Years of listening via DF1 made me accustomed to it's harsh highs so DFB sounded a bit "muffled" initially. I also needed to turn up volume a bit on my receiver (from previous 10 o'clock position to 11 and half o'clock) to compensate lower output. But after a while you start to appreciate better (more melodic) output of DFB. Same was with Ath-MSR7. DF1 can be tiresome after prolong listening, while DFB is totally fine, with some nice bass kicking.
  
*Sound-stage*
 Here comes a shocker - DF1 has (artificially) wider sound-stage. I tried it with various tracks and this is my solid conclusion. Highs are so up font, that mids/bass are struggling to surface. DFB on the other side has lower highs and more prominent mids/bass so they sit closer together.
  
  
*Volume control (Windows laptop)*
 DF1 I can listen at 45-50 laptop volume (really high), and that's comparable to around 15 volume with DFB. Comfortable level with DF1 is 10-20, while with DFB 2-5 is already too much if you want to listen to music in the background while doing something else. So volume fine tune is much better on DF1. Two things I've noticed:
  
 1. Every time I plug DFB to laptop for a split second there's a hissing/static noise,while DF1 is dead silent. Not a big deal, just an observation.
  
 2. When I plug DF1 it would (for a sec or two) gradually increase volume, kind of "fade in" effect, while DFB goes straight to full power.
  
 Which one I like better: I guess that greatly depends on your gear (headphones/speakers) and type of music you listen. I'm more into hard rock so DFB is better to me. Also Ath-MSR7 are on the "bright" side, so DFB is a perfect match for them. Too bad I don't have my previous Momentum over-ear v1, as they are more on the "warm" side, eg less prominent highs to compare.
  
 Is it worth it? Well, original DF1 used to be 249 EUR, now you get DFB for 99 EUR. So yes, you get great sound for much less.
 One thing I have noticed Dragontail cable is a bit longer now (the one I got with DF1 is significantly shorter). Sorry, my first post so I can't post pics yet.
  
  
 Cheers,


----------



## 6a6uH BHyK

> Originally Posted by *miki69* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 1. Every time I plug DFB to laptop for a split second there's a hissing/static noise,while DF1 is dead silent. Not a big deal, just an observation.


 
 I have the same issue with my DFB, while everything is ok with DF 1.2 and DF Red. Hope it will be fixed with software update.
 P.S.: volume issue http://www.head-fi.org/t/816497/dragonfly-red-low-volume-issue


----------



## pofdstudios

You mean the infamous software update from Audioquest thats over a month late??


----------



## 6a6uH BHyK

pofdstudios said:


> You mean the infamous software update from Audioquest thats over a month late??


 

 Yep - update, which is coming


----------



## Tribble

miki69 said:


> *Volume control (Windows laptop)*
> DF1 I can listen at 45-50 laptop volume (really high), and that's comparable to around 15 volume with DFB. Comfortable level with DF1 is 10-20, while with DFB 2-5 is already too much if you want to listen to music in the background while doing something else. So volume fine tune is much better on DF1.


 
  
 That's similar to what I find with the Red (with its digital control rather then the Black's analog) and the NightOwls. With FLAC files I usually have to have the volume level (on Windows' own volume slider) at less than 10 (out of 100), and often 4 or 5 if it's a loud recording and I don't feel like having my ears blasted. So there are only a few steps of usable volume control.
  
 It's my understanding that we should keep the volume level in the player software (foobar in my case) at 100% so as not to lose bits/quality. Using that volume control though is the only way to get a useful, finer range of adjustment.


----------



## dacari

After a whole year with these issues (android or PC) I highly doubt there will be a solution. Some weeks ago a reply of an email gave us some hope but the excuse of initial problems with MQA...again no update.
  
 In any case, these problems/compatibility with the volume/gain/control doesn't seem a priority for Audioquest.


----------



## Saaki

When I emailed them on February 15th they told me in regards to the volume issue: "The volume issues for most Android devices will be fixed with our new firmware. With you, I hope the new firmware will be released soon."


----------



## miki69

tribble said:


> That's similar to what I find with the Red (with its digital control rather then the Black's analog) and the NightOwls. With FLAC files I usually have to have the volume level (on Windows' own volume slider) at less than 10 (out of 100), and often 4 or 5 if it's a loud recording and I don't feel like having my ears blasted. *So there are only a few steps of usable volume control.*


 
 Agree. And that's what really frustrates me. Why sound has to be artificially boosted via DF? Why not normal small increments so everyone can find suitable level.
  
 This is also one of the reasons (ironically) why I got second DF. As with my home setup (played via laptop) DF1 is set to 100% (fixed output). Can you imagine what would happen if I forget to lower setting and plug my headset in office...
  
 One thing I don't understand: On my receiver I had to boost volume up in order to compensate lower output of DFB comparing to DF1, but on Laptop I have to lower DFB not to be as loud as DF1 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
  
 Cheers,


----------



## waflet

Hideeho The point of the higher output level is to driver headphones with high impedance. While not super hard to drive, I set my to HE400i’s 40-50% either through the iPhone or through the computer. My umpro iem’s I set WAY less, around the 10-20% for the same perceived volume. AQ set the output intentionally high to cover everyone. p.s. If the DFB is too loud for you, don’t even think about trying the DFR. It’s even louder


----------



## miki69

Well, the original DF1 has 2V output, comparing to DFB's 1.2V. I can listen music in background with DF1 set to 10-20 and if I really want to enjoy music 40-50. As I said, DF1 at 45-50 is approx. same loudness of DFB at 15, and that's what really puzzles me.
  
  
 Cheers,


----------



## 6a6uH BHyK

miki69 said:


> Well, the original DF1 has 2V output, comparing to DFB's 1.2V. I can listen music in background with DF1 set to 10-20 and if I really want to enjoy music 40-50. As I said, DF1 at 45-50 is approx. same loudness of DFB at 15, and that's what really puzzles me.
> 
> 
> Cheers,


 
  
 I would add that nevetheless of voltage specs, loudness level looks like this: DF 1.0 ~= DF 1.2 = DF Red < DF Black.
 DF Black smashes my NighHawks at 2-3 points of macOS sound level, while other DFs need 6-8 for it.


----------



## Saaki

Does anyone know why Viper for Android treats the Dragonfly Red as the phone speaker (aka is active when phone speaker it turned on) and not as a USB device? Same is true when I use AudioFX.


----------



## west0ne

To use the DFB with V4A I have to lock V4A to headset, this way V4A effects are applied, it doesn't work on the USB setting. 

For me this only works if the DFB is running at 44100 or 48000, at anything above this V4A won't process it.


----------



## Saaki

Thanks! I'll give that a go and report back. Without locking it it works on the "phone speaker" mode which is fine however doesn't give me nearly as many headphone options.


----------



## Saaki

Thanks again for the help west0ne! It worked like a charm. I'm impressed how much of a difference V4A makes. I wasn't too sure about it before but this round there is a huuuuge difference. Its also the first time I've tried using the IRS profiles, so maybe that has something to do with it.


----------



## SpiderNhan

The Tidal desktop app received an update today and the Dragonfly Red is finally, at least for me, playing at the proper sample rates. Before the update, everything would we get upsampled to the highest sampling rate the Dragonfly was set to. Now I get green for hifi songs and either amber or magenta for the Masters. I hope this means that the AQ update will follow soon.


----------



## Saaki

Is Tidal somehow associated with Audioquest?


----------



## SpiderNhan

I just know that the firmware exists.


----------



## pufftissue

Volume issues are a very real problem with the dragonflys. Too high for IEMs when you want low volume listening and too high in other situations. All that is needed is finer volume adjustments. The red's digital volume renders iOS volume limit feature useless. Audio quest give us 64 granular units of volume control and start the red and black at a very low level and we will be fine. Company reputation is taking a hit. No new products. No one is complaining about the sound. Just fix the product you have already released. It's financially better move for your company, too


----------



## west0ne

spidernhan said:


> I just know that the firmware exists.


 
 On the DFB I can get the light to  glow Blue just by setting the bitrate to 48000 [perhaps I'm just in a cynical mood].


----------



## miki69

Regarding computer volume: how come both DF1 and DFB still play sound even when laptop volume is set to *zero*? What do they amplify if volume is zero?
  
 Cheers,


----------



## SpiderNhan

west0ne said:


> On the DFB I can get the light to  glow Blue just by setting the bitrate to 48000 [perhaps I'm just in a cynical mood].



48000 blue and MQA blue are different blues


----------



## west0ne

spidernhan said:


> 48000 blue and MQA blue are different blues




You understand my scepticism though? AQ haven't exactly been reliable on the firmware update front.


----------



## pofdstudios

I keep hearing of a firmware update. "Its coming soon" To me its NOT even breathing hard yet so I am paying no attention to the "coming soon" hype. I imagine it will eventually show up. Just like the UPDATED windows 10 drivers for my Woo WA7s it probably depends on a 3rd party developer ( xmos in the Woo wa7's case) or some other 3rd party. I dont exactly fault Audioquest in this. So while I am sure most of us are frustrated I am equally sure Audioquest is frustrated as well. Patience


----------



## Tribble

miki69 said:


> Regarding computer volume: how come both DF1 and DFB still play sound even when laptop volume is set to *zero*? What do they amplify if volume is zero?
> 
> Cheers,


 
  
 I noticed that too. Bear in mind that a volume control is an _attenuator_, and that the Windows' (assuming a PC) volume control actually controls the Dragonfly's internal attenuator. So even set at 'zero' on that slider, it means that the attenuator is at _maximum attenuation_; that's not the same as_ zero output_.
  
 Clicking the speaker icon on the volume slider does mute the output.
  
 It does show just how loud the output from the DF into lower impedance headphones is though... I can quite clearly hear some louder tracks even at 'zero' volume.


----------



## paulgc

Just afraid the DF firmware will take as long to come out as their Beetle DAC announced in CES 2016 a year plus ago and still on the website as coming soon. Havent seen any USB C cables from them either. Makes me wonder.


----------



## Mike Oliveira

hey guys! 
  
 Received my DF Black today, i am using it with Spotify Premium, (macbook pro, Sample Rate - 44100Hz, Green color) but im experiencing some kind of background static noise (or distortion, not sure) when listening to some tracks, is this happening to someone? The sound of the DFB paired with my headphones is amazing but this buzzing is annoying...
  
 thanks


----------



## stuck limo

waflet said:


> Hideeho The point of the higher output level is to driver headphones with high impedance. While not super hard to drive, I set my to HE400i’s 40-50% either through the iPhone or through the computer.  AQ set the output intentionally high to cover everyone. p.s. If the DFB is too loud for you, don’t even think about trying the DFR. It’s even louder


 
  
 This is a good reason not to buy this thing or wait until they build in a gain level function. Borderline unacceptable to me. Level 1 is near too loud, Level 2 and 3 you're about to blow your eardrums or headphones out.


----------



## pofdstudios

stuck limo said:


> This is a good reason not to buy this thing or wait until they build in a gain level function. Borderline unacceptable to me. Level 1 is near too loud, Level 2 and 3 you're about to blow your eardrums or headphones out.


 

 Gee on the iPhone 7 plus I have to jack the volume almost 90% on the DFR to get it loud with my Klipsch x20i's. Is this a Android issue only???


----------



## SpiderNhan

pofdstudios said:


> Gee on the iPhone 7 plus I have to jack the volume almost 90% on the DFR to get it loud with my Klipsch x20i's. Is this a Android issue only???


 
 No. The issue with Android is that the volume is too low without using USB Audio Player Pro. The volume being too loud is a Windows problem. I notice it more with my laptop, which only has USB 3.0 ports, than my desktop, where I plug the DFR into a USB 2.0 port.


----------



## stuck limo

pofdstudios said:


> Gee on the iPhone 7 plus I have to jack the volume almost 90% on the DFR to get it loud with my Klipsch x20i's. Is this a Android issue only???


 
  
 This is a Windows PC problem I'm referring to. This is why I usually leave the Dragonfly Black on the phone, and leave the GO 2A on the computer.


----------



## Devodonaldson

spidernhan said:


> No. The issue with Android is that the volume is too low without using USB Audio Player Pro. The volume being too loud is a Windows problem. I notice it more with my laptop, which only has USB 3.0 ports, than my desktop, where I plug the DFR into a USB 2.0 port.


 I understand the volume issues people are detailing, thankfully I've been able to either not experience or remedy them on my devices. On laptop with Tidal giving full access to DAC, I can use the full volume spectrum with no issue. Silent up to too loud for my ears. Regarding Android, rooted device gives me what I need. Alsa_mixer and terminal emulator with volume steps on my clipboard. From there I just adjust the volume on the phone/dap. I know this isn't the way for most people, but until full optimized use is available, I've found my way to make full use of the dac. Now I just need mqa update and mqa on mobile, lol.


----------



## Saaki

What does a blinking red light mean?


----------



## Lascael

saaki said:


> What does a blinking red light mean?




no data


----------



## west0ne

@Devodonaldson - I use an app called '$cripter' to do volume changes. It allows you to run scripts and on a rooted device will allow you to run them as root. I've created a script for each of the headphones I use with my DFB, I've also created a script for maximum volume and one for '+' and another for '-' it allows me to use it like a volume controller without using a terminal window.
  
 If you're interested the script for volume changes is:-
  
 alsa_amixer -c1 -q set PCM 1dB+
  
 This will increase volume, change the +  for a - to reduce volume.


----------



## Devodonaldson

west0ne said:


> @Devodonaldson
> - I use an app called '$cripter' to do volume changes. It allows you to run scripts and on a rooted device will allow you to run them as root. I've created a script for each of the headphones I use with my DFB, I've also created a script for maximum volume and one for '+' and another for '-' it allows me to use it like a volume controller without using a terminal window.
> 
> If you're interested the script for volume changes is:-
> ...


 interesting. How do you use the + - command? I have a Sony z3 as my Dap. I rolled it back to Android 4.4.4 because on kit Kat, Sony allows for hi-fi audio over USB. On native apps like Google play music and Tidal, the z3 sends biyperfect audio to the dac, unlike on 5.0 and above. The only downside is the system volume gets set to max, so cannot adjust using volume rocker. No biggie. Purchased the Shure headphone kit that has volume control, do I set the DSC volume based on the headphones I use, and then adjust the volume with the analog wheel. It is honestly an awesome setup


----------



## west0ne

@Devodonaldson - $cripter is a very simple app that allows you to run shell scripts. Once you have set up your scripts you have to open the app and tap the script to run it. The way I use it is to set the system volume to maximum and then control the output volume by changing the PCM output value direct on the Dragonfly similar to the hardware control in UAPP.
  
 I once did something very similar in Tasker and then use App Factory to create a small volume control app but it was more involved than the simple $cripter approach. With Tasker you may be able to remap the volume buttons to run the volume script.


----------



## west0ne

Have any Windows users tried using VB Audio ASIO Bridge and Asio4All with apps such as Spotify that don't support ASIO?
  
 As I understand it Asio Bridge creates a virtual sound card that grabs the audio from any audio app before it does through the Windows audio system and passes it onto you Asio device, as there are no ASIO drivers for the Dragonfly Asio4All is providing the ASIO part. The aim is that you end up with a bitperfect stream from apps that wouldn't normally support it.


----------



## Tennessee

Guys I can't get my DFR light green. 
I changed in audio policy usb to 44100 only, checked it, rebooted but having still magenta light. Need help!
Tried on Note 4 and Galaxy Tab S2. Also did build.prop changes.


----------



## Lascael

Hello,

I am in possession of a DFB that I am using with my phone (a S7) and I am using TIDAL with UAPP but when working offshore I can't stream music so I am using tidal app and play my offline albums.
I understand that the only way to get these folders processed the right way is to root my phone but I am not confident in doing that manipulation on my phone.

My question is:
If TIDAL provide a new app for androids and iphones that handles MQA then unfolding (in the app) and renderer (in the DF) shouldn't it fix the DF issue even for FLAC format so we get green when it's CD quality and amber when it's MQA?

Or maybe I am mixing get everything up...

and thank you for all these interesting discussions.


----------



## jtack

Just received my DFR. Using iPhone 7 plus, Tidal HiFi, Heir Audio 4.ais. Sound is noticeably cleaner and has more impact down low. It's hard for me to describe the difference. It produces a special sound. Using the lightning to USB 2 camera kit I have heard a few pops. Seems to only happen when it is close to the phone. I was going to use a piece of velcro to secure it to the back of my phone. When it was laying surface to surface with the phone is when I heard the pops. When it is just laying separate from the phone there are no pops.


----------



## UNOE

How do I do firmware update?


----------



## Tennessee

unoe said:


> How do I do firmware update?


 
 http://www.audioquest.com/dragonfly-app/


----------



## Devodonaldson

Been loving my *DFR* since last May. It has forced me to expand my musical tastes, upgrade my headphones, and have a dedicated DAP. I decided to finally go ahead and purchase a *jitterbug* to see if there was anything extra to be had out of my current home or mobile setup. While listening I tried to tell myself I was only hearing what I wanted to hear, but after constant replays and going back and forth, I have concluded that the jitterbug is in fact a worthy purchase if you are working with good hardware. Out of my laptop with Tidal hi-fi, dfr, and *Cayin C5* to *AKG Q701* bass modded with new foam inserts, I love the added, um, sweetness to the music. It just sounds cleaner and more resolute, IDK. Same can be said with *DFR* coming from my *rooted Sony Z3 on Android 4.4.4 w/hifi audio over usb*. Thank you AQ.


----------



## jackyzhu

Just got dfr. Playing through USB Audio Player Pro with my Samsung s7. Really unbelievable! Tiny body produces such powerful sound!


----------



## Bandooken

Hello Everyone, 

 I have been using the usb 2.0 CCK with Iphone 7+ and it has been working fine (with crackling). however now, when i plug it in it says "this accessory is not supported by this iphone" and i have to plug it in and unplug it 10 times for it to work. does anyone else have this issue?


----------



## Saaki

I've been having something strange happen. Since I bought my DFR it's been working great, operating both out of my MBP and my Android phone. However the last couple times I've tried to use it out of my phone after a few seconds of starting the music it stopped playing and a red light started blinking. My understanding this means, "no data". I'm confused about what's causing this, or if something in the DFR broke. Anybody experience something similar?


----------



## wigglepuff

is there a software function on this where you can bypass the headphone amp and just use it to line out as a dac?


----------



## west0ne

wigglepuff said:


> is there a software function on this where you can bypass the headphone amp and just use it to line out as a dac?


 
 You just have to set it to maximum volume for it to provide line-out.


----------



## wigglepuff

west0ne said:


> You just have to set it to maximum volume for it to provide line-out.


 
  
 isn't that double amping already?


----------



## UNOE

How do these compare to Explorer2?


----------



## SpiderNhan

wigglepuff said:


> isn't that double amping already?



The way Dragonfly is set up, full volume acts as a line-out.


----------



## west0ne

wigglepuff said:


> isn't that double amping already?


 
 I asked the same question. The explanation I was given was that the Dragonfly is designed to run at full output and uses attenuation to control volume so it wouldn't be double amping.
  
 I'm not sure whether or not that explanation is correct but I've used the DFB with an amp and other have posted doing the same so you shouldn't have any problems doing it.


----------



## op2003

I'm using a DFB with Android 7.1.1 (cypheros ROM, AOSP based, rooted) with my HTC M8. When i connect the DFB it lits up in green. Once i start Spotify it switches to magenta (as reported multiple times in this thread).

Using the DFB in this mode with Spotify results in random distortions in audio playback with Spotify.


So i edit audio_policy.conf (after backing up the original one) as proposed by West0ne. After reboot i attached the DFB again -> lits up in magenta. When i start playing music in Spotify the audio is not passed to DFB but played via speakers.

The effect stays the same even after restoring the original audio_policy.conf and rebooting. The only way to get back to the original behaviour was dirty flashing system.


Does anybody else have any experiences with using DFB with Android 7?


----------



## Duxbury66

bandooken said:


> when i plug it in it says "this accessory is not supported by this iphone"



This happened to me a few months ago, initially I thought it was the Dragonfly, but it happened when I just plugged in the CCK adaptor on both my iPhone and my wife's. I took the CCK back to an Apple Store, same thing happened when I plugged it into one of their display iPhones and they replaced it for new, no questions asked.


----------



## west0ne

op2003 said:


> I'm using a DFB with Android 7.1.1 (cypheros ROM, AOSP based, rooted) with my HTC M8. When i connect the DFB it lits up in green. Once i start Spotify it switches to magenta (as reported multiple times in this thread).
> 
> Using the DFB in this mode with Spotify results in random distortions in audio playback with Spotify.
> 
> ...


 
 I'm not using Nougat on my devices but I thought that the audio_policy.conf had changed with Android 7 and was now using XML based files for audio policies, do you have a file called 'usb_audio_policy_configuration.xml on your device'?
  
 [EDIT]
 I also think that some devices simply don't respect the audio_policy.conf file the way they should. Samsung Touchwiz seems to have the same issue but Samsung running a CM based Rom does follow the audio policy.


----------



## op2003

west0ne said:


> I'm not using Nougat on my devices but I thought that the audio_policy.conf had changed with Android 7 and was now using XML based files for audio policies, do you have a file called 'usb_audio_policy_configuration.xml on your device'?
> 
> [EDIT]
> I also think that some devices simply don't respect the audio_policy.conf file the way they should. Samsung Touchwiz seems to have the same issue but Samsung running a CM based Rom does follow the audio policy.


 
  
 You are right. But according to this specification: https://source.android.com/devices/audio/implement-policy.html the Audio_policy.conf is deprecated but still supported. There are no xml files in my /system/etc path so i think the ROM (Cypheros AOSP) somehow relies on the Audio_policy.conf.


----------



## Cann0nF0dda

unoe said:


> How do these compare to Explorer2?


 
  
 I may be able to help ...  I've been running a DFB for a few months and find the sound amazing.  I have a DFB on order which should arrive this evening.  I am planning to compare and contrast DFB to DFR now that TIDAL is working better following the recent update.  TIDAL now seems to be working properly with Masters playback (albeit not with MQA yet - until Audioquest provides upgraded firmware).
  
 I've also had a Meridian Explorer 2 for the past few weeks; just to see whether MQA made a major difference.  And it does.  MQA through TIDAL does sound different; fuller, bigger soundstage, "more like you are in the studio".  However, in general, the sound quality of the Explorer 2 isn't as good as the DFB, so I have decided to send it back to Amazon, later on, today.
  
 My view is that MQA through the DFB (and/or DFR) will simply be the icing on the cake of what are clearly great sounding devices.  I am using TIDAL and Roon on various PCs, plus TIDAL on iPad and Samsung Galaxy S5.


----------



## UNOE

cann0nf0dda said:


> unoe said:
> 
> 
> > How do these compare to Explorer2?
> ...




Okay thank you I expected it to follow between the to or be very close to red. But if you like black better that is supprising.


----------



## Saaki

saaki said:


> I've been having something strange happen. Since I bought my DFR it's been working great, operating both out of my MBP and my Android phone. However the last couple times I've tried to use it out of my phone after a few seconds of starting the music it stopped playing and a red light started blinking. My understanding this means, "no data". I'm confused about what's causing this, or if something in the DFR broke. Anybody experience something similar?




Well apparently the blinking red light means it's broken. I somehow got a unit that failed. I'm sending it back to Amazon for a replacement. Might try the black this time however... I'm curious about the difference.


----------



## gimen

Hi,
  
 I am new to this. I've got dragonfly red and downloaded USB Audio Player Pro. Could someone advise me on what DSD mode should I select. There are DSD to PCM conversion, DoP(DSD over PCM) and Native DSD.
  
 Thanks


----------



## psikey

DSD to PCM. It's doesn't do DSD directly.

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk


----------



## gimen

Thanks


----------



## psikey

For what its worth I asked question again and had reply so hopefully the MQA update will have a fix for the Android volume issue:
  
  
*QUESTION*
 Hi Alasdair,
   

    Any news on this as I'm really waiting on the android volume fix ?  Its been nearly a year now and your last email at beginning of Feb said couple of weeks?

   

   

  Thanks

   

  Andrew
  
  
  
*ANSWER*
  
 Dear Andrew,
  
 It shouldn’t be more than a couple of weeks now.
  
 Best regards,
  
 Alasdair Patrick
 AudioQuest


----------



## Gonzbull

Still not getting my hopes up. No stress for me as I only use the DFB with my iPhone and who knows when Tidal will enable MQA in their iOS app.


----------



## wigglepuff

has anyone compared the sound quality/tonaliy with the ibasso D14? whats the difference between the two?


----------



## west0ne

wigglepuff said:


> has anyone compared the sound quality/tonaliy with the ibasso D14? whats the difference between the two?


 
 I prefer the sound from the D14 to the DFB. In my opinion it's more detailed and neutral with greater depth and clarity. Obviously the size/form of the DFB make it more convenient for use on the go and it is considerably cheaper.
  
 It's been a while since I tried the DFR so wouldn't really want to offer a comparison between it and the D14 but I do remember the DFR being 'brighter' than the DFB.
  
 If you are considering the D14 but don't need optical input then you may also want to look at the Oppo HA2 as it is a nicer form factor for portable use but is more expensive.
  
 The D14 also offers more format options than the DFB/DFR and will play anything up to DSD256.
  
 Price wise [in the UK] the D14 is a little under twice the price of the DFB and is about the same as the DFR.


----------



## wigglepuff

west0ne said:


> I prefer the sound from the D14 to the DFB. In my opinion it's more detailed and neutral with greater depth and clarity. Obviously the size/form of the DFB make it more convenient for use on the go and it is considerably cheaper.
> 
> It's been a while since I tried the DFR so wouldn't really want to offer a comparison between it and the D14 but I do remember the DFR being 'brighter' than the DFB.
> 
> ...


 
 the D14 is neutral sound not warmish?

 im looking for a better dac than the e10k that can be considered a step up for use on the philips X1 and  hifiman HE400i, the DFred will make the 400i really sharp on the highs wont it?


----------



## west0ne

> Originally Posted by c than the e10k that can be considered a step up for use on the philips X1 and  hifiman HE400i, the DFred will make the 400i really sharp on the highs wont it?





> I would say that the D14 is *wigglepuff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> the D14 is neutral sound not warmish?
> 
> im looking for a better daneutral rather than warm.


 
  
 Are you looking for something portable or a desktop type to replace the e10K?
  
 Have you thought about using the line-out on the e10K to feed a separate amp, perhaps a tube amp or hybrid tube to give you the sound you want.


----------



## wigglepuff

Not exactly portable, as long as i can use it on the pc. isn't the dac the one dictating the detail quality? the amp only filters distortion and well amplify power output.
  
 I did use the e10k to lineout an A5, it sounds cleaner since the A5 amp is a real upgrade compared to the e10k amp, but the pcm5102 is inferior compared to the 9018 isn't it? I'm looking for a dac that's well extented and can produce fine detail in the low's and high but wont make anything sibilant, I listen to a lot of alternative, acoustic and rock music.


----------



## west0ne

wigglepuff said:


> Not exactly portable, as long as i can use it on the pc. isn't the dac the one dictating the detail quality? the amp only filters distortion and well amplify power output.
> 
> I did use the e10k to lineout an A5, it sounds cleaner since the A5 amp is a real upgrade compared to the e10k amp, but the pcm5102 is inferior compared to the 9018 isn't it? I'm looking for a dac that's well extented and can produce fine detail in the low's and high but wont make anything sibilant, I listen to a lot of alternative, acoustic and rock music.




All I can say is that I've used the DFB, D14 and Fiio Q1 with my Vali 2 Amp and I think it is the Amp that influences the end sound more than the DAC.


----------



## Wiencon

How many of Red users have expeirenced "clicks and pops" while using smaller Lightning to USB CCK? I have iPhone on iOS 8.2 and it doesn't support newer CCK but I really don't want to update it


----------



## jegnyc

wiencon said:


> How many of Red users have expeirenced "clicks and pops" while using smaller Lightning to USB CCK? I have iPhone on iOS 8.2 and it doesn't support newer CCK but I really don't want to update it


 
 Not sure if you're going to get anything that approaches a statistical sampling.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  
  
 In my case I tried the old CCK on four iDevices and had the problem on one.  I've been following this thread for a while now, and it does seem as though the number of complaints has gone up since the introduction of the iPhone 7/iOS 10.  In my case, the most recent version of iOS 10 significantly reduced the problem.  In any event, that should not be an issue for you.


----------



## azlkk

I had some random clicking with the original camera adapter on my iPhone 7 Plus with the latest IOS. Since swapping out the adapter for the new USB3.0 adapter the noise has never come back.


----------



## waflet

Hideeho
 Is there a functional limit to the number of times you can split the output of the DFB?
  
 To give you a better idea, I’m thinking about using my DFB to run 3 separate amps in my car. An alpine power pack 4 channel for 4 front speakers & a separate high power sub amp in the trunk. This would require me to build an adaptor for 3.5mm to 3 sets (6 total) RCA plugs. Is this feasible?


----------



## djmlondon

wiencon said:


> How many of Red users have expeirenced "clicks and pops" while using smaller Lightning to USB CCK? I have iPhone on iOS 8.2 and it doesn't support newer CCK but I really don't want to update it


 
 I get that every so often. 
  
 iPhone 6S 64GB
 CCK
 DFR
 Happened with every OS version sine the release
  
 It manifests as approx two frequent stutter every second, and it carries on until the CCK is unplugged and reconnect it.
 I also noticed it happens more often when flicking through pages on Flipboard. I recall it happens more often on complex pages from the British Independent with loads of ads and **** on it causing the audio streaming to get its knickers in a twist.
  
 Sometimes it happens for no obvious reason when not using the phone for anything else than listening to music.
  
 As there are no proprietary audio drivers involved, it could be s a bug in either the OS, Apple's lightning to USB driver or the Core Audio driver


----------



## Wiencon

@djmlondon
Whick CCK version are you using? The USB3 (the one with lightning port) supposedly doesn't have problem


----------



## foreverzer0

I'm fairly certain it manifests when other apps or the OS plays a sound concurrent with music, perhaps with a different frequency rate. Perhaps the dfr doesn't switch or play concurrent sample rates gracefully as if there were a Windows or coreaudio mixer.


----------



## foreverzer0

wiencon said:


> @djmlondon
> Whick CCK version are you using? The USB3 (the one with lightning port) supposedly doesn't have problem




It still did the same, I think it's AQ's way of trying to push off the blame. This even happened to me directly off my macbook pro..


----------



## Wiencon

foreverzer0 said:


> It still did the same, I think it's AQ's way of trying to push off the blame. This even happened to me directly off my macbook pro..



Aww, that sucks. This is the first time I gear about problems with MBP, maybe your DFR is flawed?


----------



## jegnyc

wiencon said:


> Aww, that sucks. This is the first time I gear about problems with MBP, maybe your DFR is flawed?


 
 I do not have the problem with the newer CCK.
  
 With the older CCK (and pre iOS 10.2 where the problem was reduced and I haven't retested) I would have the problem when I put my iPhone in airplane mode, turned off WiFi and Bluetooth, and had no other apps running.


----------



## foreverzer0

wiencon said:


> Aww, that sucks. This is the first time I gear about problems with MBP, maybe your DFR is flawed?




Unfortunately, I tried with two different DFR's and still exhibited that behavior. I gave up on it since.


----------



## Duxbury66

I experienced the clicks and pops with the HRT I-DSP that I bought last year before the DFB/R were released. So much so that I sent the I-DSP back after a few days blaming it.

Since then I've owned the DFB and have now upgraded to the DFR and have experienced the clicks and pops with both. All along this has been using an iPhone 6s with the smaller CCK. However, the issue has gone from happening on every song 12 months ago to hardly happening at all now as new iOS updates have been released. I barely notice them now and when I do it tends to only be on very quiet parts of tracks. When the music is playing I don't hear the clicks and pops anymore. As a result I've resisted buying the larger USB3 CCK as it's just not worth the extra bulk.

So I don't think we should blame AQ for this issue, in my experience it is 100% down to the iPhone and/or the CCK. I just hope that Apple crack it once and for all with a future iOS update.


----------



## Fiberoptix

Deleted


----------



## Katert

Hi, recently I've purchased the Dragonfly Black, and am enjoying every second I listen music through it. However, I got a question about the sound quality and hope someone could clarify this; when I connect the Dragonfly Black to my Macbook Pro Retina (2015 version), the music sounds much livelier and open compared to when I connect the Dragonfly Black to my 'cheap-ass' Dell desktop at work. Don't get me wrong, it still sounds >a lot< better than listening through the built-in soundcard. Does this have something to do with higher quality components (which deliver the voltage through USB) found in the MBP compared to those in my Dell-desktop at work (just a suggestion)? If so, does using the AQ Jitterbug solve this 'problem'? Really curious about the science behind this, thanks in advance!


----------



## west0ne

katert said:


> Hi, recently I've purchased the Dragonfly Black, and am enjoying every second I listen music through it. However, I got a question about the sound quality and hope someone could clarify this; when I connect the Dragonfly Black to my Macbook Pro Retina (2015 version), the music sounds much livelier and open compared to when I connect the Dragonfly Black to my 'cheap-ass' Dell desktop at work. Don't get me wrong, it still sounds >a lot< better than listening through the built-in soundcard. Does this have something to do with higher quality components (which deliver the voltage through USB) found in the MBP compared to those in my Dell-desktop at work (just a suggestion)? If so, does using the AQ Jitterbug solve this 'problem'? Really curious about the science behind this, thanks in advance!


 
 Have you tried disabling enhancements in the audio device settings on your Windows machine? Not sure if that would be the issue but it could be that Windows audio is altering the sound somehow.


----------



## chatnever

Hi guys, I'm a heavy basshead. I wonder if a combination of iPhone 6S/7 Plus + Dragonfly Red + XB90EX a good choice? Has anyone tried it?


----------



## coolcrew23

chatnever said:


> Hi guys, I'm a heavy basshead. I wonder if a combination of iPhone 6S/7 Plus + Dragonfly Red + XB90EX a good choice? Has anyone tried it?




I have the ADR and it has decent bass. The ADB may be the warmer of the 2 as per most people here.


----------



## Tennessee

What would be your headphones of choice for DFR? Over-Ear and closed. Up to let's say 750€.
 I have now Momentum 2, which I love and ATH MSR7 which I don't like after I bought my Sennheisers.
 I'm thinking about DT 1770 PRO, but I am afraid they will be playing thin and soulless like mine ATHs.


----------



## shootthemoon18

tennessee said:


> What would be your headphones of choice for DFR? Over-Ear and closed. Up to let's say 750€.
> I have now Momentum 2, which I love and ATH MSR7 which I don't like after I bought my Sennheisers.
> I'm thinking about DT 1770 PRO, but I am afraid they will be playing thin and soulless like mine ATHs.


 
 DT1770 is half way between M2 and MSR7. It has the bass of momentum 2 but a bit more treble. It needs a bit of power though. Not a lot, but definitely not from smartphone output.


----------



## Tennessee

shootthemoon18 said:


> DT1770 is half way between M2 and MSR7. It has the bass of momentum 2 but a bit more treble. It needs a bit of power though. Not a lot, but definitely not from smartphone output.


 
 AQ says that DFR can drive most power hunger headphones? So if dt1770 wouldn't be properly driven, what would be your recommendation?  I am no expert, just love music and a good sound, and I don't have problem to spend some money on what I like.


----------



## pkcpga

chatnever said:


> Hi guys, I'm a heavy basshead. I wonder if a combination of iPhone 6S/7 Plus + Dragonfly Red + XB90EX a good choice? Has anyone tried it?



If you're strictly a bass head you may want to try the DFB instead, I find the DFR a bit thin but better detailed than the black, while the black has more of a darker tuning.


----------



## pkcpga

tennessee said:


> AQ says that DFR can drive most power hunger headphones? So if dt1770 wouldn't be properly driven, what would be your recommendation?  I am no expert, just love music and a good sound, and I don't have problem to spend some money on what I like.



If you want the dt1770 just get a chord mojo or a dac/amp with its own power source so it can properly drive the headphones you want.


----------



## Tennessee

pkcpga said:


> tennessee said:
> 
> 
> > AQ says that DFR can drive most power hunger headphones? So if dt1770 wouldn't be properly driven, what would be your recommendation?  I am no expert, just love music and a good sound, and I don't have problem to spend some money on what I like.
> ...



I want small dragonfly and close back headphones to be somehow mobile (take it with me to work everyday) so I can't have powered dac. And I didn't say I want definitely those Beyers, just that I'm considering them, but if you say they won't be best with DFR so I'll pass on them. 

Gesendet von meinem SM-N910F mit Tapatalk


----------



## Slaphead

The DFR drives the DT1770 perfectly - it's the exact combination that I use most of the time.

Hell, you can drive the DT1770 direct from an iPhones HP jack - you'll need the volume quite high, but it works OK - it's just lacking in dynamics compared to the DFR.


----------



## Katert

west0ne said:


> Have you tried disabling enhancements in the audio device settings on your Windows machine? Not sure if that would be the issue but it could be that Windows audio is altering the sound somehow.




Yep! Already checked that.


----------



## west0ne

On paper even the older Dragonfly 1.2 should be able to push the DT1770 to 114dB and as the DFR has more power than the 1.2 it should push them even further.


----------



## west0ne

@Katert -  how about trying something like 'ASIO Bridge' in conjunction with 'ASIO4ALL' to route the audio. Not sure that it will have much impact but I have seen people suggest that using ASIO improves sound quality.


----------



## dmance

Deleted.


----------



## pkcpga

west0ne said:


> On paper even the older Dragonfly 1.2 should be able to push the DT1770 to 114dB and as the DFR has more power than the 1.2 it should push them even further.




As with many full size phones the DFR can power them to good volumes you just loose some dynamics and bass, things start to sound thin for me personally. But if you don't want a battery powered dac/amp the dfr probably powers them best of what currently available for portable dac/amps.


----------



## slackerpo

pkcpga said:


> As with many full size phones the DFR can power them to good volumes you just loose some dynamics and bass, things start to sound thin for me personally. But if you don't want a battery powered dac/amp the dfr probably powers them best of what currently available for portable dac/amps.


 
  
 i agree.
  
 im a dt1770 owner and IMO DFB is a much better fit than DFR.
  
 own DFB, and have tested and compared with DFR.


----------



## shootthemoon18

slaphead said:


> The DFR drives the DT1770 perfectly - it's the exact combination that I use most of the time.
> 
> Hell, you can drive the DT1770 direct from an iPhones HP jack - you'll need the volume quite high, but it works OK - it's just lacking in dynamics compared to the DFR.


 
 If dynamics are lacking, that's a strong sign that headphones are not receiving enough power. My DT1770 sounds terrible out of my iPhone lightning adapter. Thin and lacking in dynamics. I rather listen to my cheaper and easier to drive MDR100AP.

 That being said, i've heard DFR with Nighthawks and i can attest that dynamics are not great but pretty good. 

 It is not all about power though, the quality of the signal plays a big part in clarity, speed, soundstage size, and dynamics. My DT1770 sounds the best with my ALO CDM which is only decently powerful.


----------



## slackerpo

shootthemoon18 said:


> If dynamics are lacking, that's a strong sign that headphones are not receiving enough power. My DT1770 sounds terrible out of my iPhone lightning adapter. Thin and lacking in dynamics. I rather listen to my cheaper and easier to drive MDR100AP.
> 
> That being said, i've heard DFR with Nighthawks and i can attest that dynamics are not great but pretty good.
> 
> It is not all about power though, the quality of the signal plays a big part in clarity, speed, soundstage size, and dynamics. My DT1770 sounds the best with my ALO CDM which is only decently powerful.


 
  
 i concur.


----------



## Citsur86

So was the "Late January" DFB and DFR update promise just smoke and mirrors?


----------



## djmlondon

wiencon said:


> @djmlondon
> Whick CCK version are you using? The USB3 (the one with lightning port) supposedly doesn't have problem


 
 Sorry for late reply.
  
 I do have the USB3 adapter as well as the simple CCK, but I rely on unplugging it and back again when needed. It's not happening often enough to justify to carrying around the rather large adapter in the pocket.


----------



## smellyoldgoat

I've noticed some mild clipping on my iPhone 7 when using Spotify's EQ with my DFB 1.5 (USB 3.0 CCK) and my ATH-M50x. When I listen to the same song, same volume, same headphones with the Apple Lightning adapter I don't have that problem. This is different from the clicks and pops experienced with the USB 2.0 CCK and only happens when Spotify's EQ is on.


----------



## smellyoldgoat

citsur86 said:


> So was the "Late January" DFB and DFR update promise just smoke and mirrors?


 

 Who knows. I've already written them off.


----------



## Slaphead

smellyoldgoat said:


> I've noticed some mild clipping on my iPhone 7 when using Spotify's EQ with my DFB 1.5 (USB 3.0 CCK) and my ATH-M50x. When I listen to the same song, same volume, same headphones with the Apple Lightning adapter I don't have that problem. This is different from the clicks and pops experienced with the USB 2.0 CCK and only happens when Spotify's EQ is on.




What are you doing? Are you boosting the frequency ranges you want?

If so, don't. Take the opposite approach instead and cut the frequency ranges you don't want (or reduce the EQ's preamp section before you boost, if there is one). Then turn the volume up to your desired listening level.

This is an old rule for using EQ. Never boost, always cut and then increase gain if required.

The Dragonfles work differently to Apples Lightning adapter in terms of the signal they receive - the Dragonflies always get the full digital signal as they take care of the volume themselves. The Lightning adapter gets a volume adjusted digital signal. You'd hear the same clipping with the Lightning adapter if you were to max out the volume on the iPhone.


----------



## pkcpga

citsur86 said:


> So was the "Late January" DFB and DFR update promise just smoke and mirrors?




I was hopefull this time around, but AQ blamed Tidal for their update push back than Tidal updated but again AQ did not. Same way AQ blamed Apple or Android for all their issues instead of fixing their compatibility issues themselves. AQ claims to have built their product to be compatible so it's not the device they claim it's compatible with fault, AQ should have properly tested the product first not used is customers as beta testers. AQ seems to be full of excuses with no results. Although I was hoping for a cheap portable MQA dac, I guess I shouldn't have gotten my hopes up.


----------



## JEspina456

citsur86 said:


> So was the "Late January" DFB and DFR update promise just smoke and mirrors?




Audioquest is going to have a "cry wolf" reputation soon. They seem to announce things too early. No MQA update, no Beetle and Perch was very slow to arrive. 

It's fine to announce products, I wouldn't state a date as it disappoints excited consumers when it fails to happen.


----------



## Gonzbull

jespina456 said:


> Audioquest is going to have a "cry wolf" reputation soon. They seem to announce things too early. No MQA update, no Beetle and Perch was very slow to arrive.
> 
> It's fine to announce products, I wouldn't state a date as it disappoints excited consumers when it fails to happen.




To me they already do have that reputation. Hard to take them seriously. I do however enjoy my DFB but have stopped waiting on this firmware update.


----------



## pofdstudios

gonzbull said:


> To me they already do have that reputation. Hard to take them seriously. I do however enjoy my DFB but have stopped waiting on this firmware update.


 

 I agree! Since I've been waiting for this fictional update I've saved and bought a Woo WA7 and WA7tp never the less an AK300. So now my DFR is totally outclassed and redundant. I really considering just selling it with the Apple adapter and calling it a day.


----------



## Akoto222

Need your suggestions DFB/DFR users. 

I'm torn between getting an Aune M1s or just opt to Phone + DFB/DFR combo. I have a UM3x and IT03 which I use on a daily basis. 
Would anyone know if I would benefit more on the latter option? It will definitely save me a few $$.

I have iP7+ and Samsung S7E


----------



## Fiberoptix

akoto222 said:


> Need your suggestions DFB/DFR users.
> 
> I'm torn between getting an Aune M1s or just opt to Phone + DFB/DFR combo. I have a UM3x and IT03 which I use on a daily basis.
> Would anyone know if I would benefit more on the latter option? It will definitely save me a few $$.
> ...




DFB and IT03 have great synergy IMO. Gives them good power which helps for a fuller sound.


----------



## Duskdrums

As with others, I was excited to see that tidal fixed the issue with playing 16/44.1 files in exclusive mode with the DF, but it seems to have introduced a new problem for me.  
  
 When I am listening to music and I use my keyboard media keys to turn the volume of the tidal app up or down, the volume slider in the tidal app slowly, on its own, creeps down until it gets to "mute".  I have to set the volume by selecting a spot on the slider with my mouse for the volume to stay at a level below mute.  And even then, when a new song starts, the volume will decrease on its own
  
 This only happens in the following situation:
 Tidal for windows desktop app,
 Sound output is set to dragonfly red, exclusive mode.  
  
 It does not happen when tidal's sound output is set to windows default and the windows sound output is set to the DF.  But doing this means I cannot listen to Master quality files at higher resolution.
  
 Not sure if this is a tidal issue, a dragonfly issue, or a combo with tidal/DFR since DFR uses the software volume control  to set its hardware volume. 
  
 Anyone else having this issue?  Or even can you confirm that you *aren't *having this issue in a similar use case?  Thanks!


----------



## rad7

Hello everyone, most of my music files are mp3s of the 320 kbps quality and I listen to them using my ThinkPad or my low-end android phone. Both of them have pretty awful inbuilt DACs. My old Sansa mp3 player has a much better SQ, unfortunately, it wouldn't turn on anymore. I mainly use iems to listen to music; the only headphone I have now is the Sennheiser HD598. I am planning to get the Fidelio X2 sometime in the future. My iems are pretty inexpensive but are of good quality - KZ ZS3, ZST, MEMT X5, Xears XE Pro Walnut Edition & Fidue A31s. They are decent for the kind of music I listen to - chillout trance, trap, post-rock, etc. I like good (but not overwhelming) bass, clarity, soundstage, warm mids and non-fatiguing highs (I am a little treble-sensitive). 
  
 Now I have a $100 - $150 budget and I have these options:
  
 1. DFB 1.5 - An additional advantage is that I can use this with my ThinkPad too. I am not sure if I have to upgrade to the DFR considering my requirements.
  
 2. Get a cheap Chinese Phone like the PPTV King 7s for about $135. It has ESS Sabre ES9018K2M DAC + Maxim MAX97220 +  NXP Smart PA audio chips and a quad HD screen. But it will be stuck on Android 5 forever & doesn't have some basic features like a fingerprint sensor. So, I don't know how long I will be using this phone. And of course, I cannot use this to listen to music from my ThinkPad. 
  
 3. Get a dedicated DAP for around $150 like the Shanling m1 (it has AK4452 DAC &  MAX97220 Amp) or the Cayin N3 (the N3 seems pretty awesome on paper, but it hasn't been released yet. It has the AKM4490 DAC chipset). Both of these can act as external DACs.
  
 Ignoring other differences, if I am just looking at SQ and budget (the lower the better), which of these three options would make the most sense considering my requirements? Any other suggestions, apart from these three options, are also welcome. 
  
  
 Thank you.


----------



## shootertwist

i got a prompt to update the apple camera adaptor usb 3.0, anybody updated already? i did not do it at first since it might bring back the pops/crack i heard using the 2.0 version, the 3.0 version has been great so far using with an iphone 7+


----------



## waflet

Hideeho
 I have installed it. All is good so far. It also got rid of the static when plugging it in.


----------



## Tennessee

Guys I got a feeling that my DFR is shifting middle of the scene few percent to the left, same when I'm listening through headphones or speakers. Is that even possible or I'm going crazy? 

PS. I ordered myself dt 1770 pro, but they are a little to bass heavy, what shall I try next?


----------



## cyclops214

shootertwist said:


> i got a prompt to update the apple camera adaptor usb 3.0, anybody upHidated already? i did not do it at first since it might bring back the pops/crack i heard using the 2.0 version, the 3.0 version has been great so far using with an iphone 7+


 
 I never heard Of Apple updating the CCK before. Are you sure That Actually  Happened?
  
 UPDATE
 Wow! You are correct. I did not have Wi-Fi turned on my phone But as soon as I did I got the prompt.


----------



## Peter68

Is there anyone who's heard both that could tell me how the Dragonfly Red would compare to the Foster HP-P1? I have an opportunity to buy the Fostex used for not too much more than what the Dragonfly would cost new, and am just wondering if one is significantly better/worse than the other. 

I'd be using these mostly with a pair of Grado PS500e headphones. Looking for clarity, soundstage and separation. 

Thanks for any input.


----------



## fester1986

UAPP now suport MQA and Audioquest still no.. no comment :/


----------



## paulgc

So true. Taking thier announcements with a grain of salt ever since Beetle still coming soon a year plus after CES 2016 preview!


----------



## rad7

Can I use generic cables instead of Dragon Tails to connect to my laptop and android phone or will the SQ suffer? It's hard to spend another $35 to buy two dragon tails - one for my laptop and one for my android phone.


----------



## SpiderNhan

rad7 said:


> Can I use generic cables instead of Dragon Tails to connect to my laptop and android phone or will the SQ suffer? It's hard to spend another $35 to buy two dragon tails - one for my laptop and one for my android phone.



 

Generic cables work fine.


----------



## rad7

spidernhan said:


> rad7 said:
> 
> 
> > Can I use generic cables instead of Dragon Tails to connect to my laptop and android phone or will the SQ suffer? It's hard to spend another $35 to buy two dragon tails - one for my laptop and one for my android phone.
> ...


 
 Thank you!


----------



## svemo

@Tennessee: If you're into the soundstage of the DT1770pro but didn't like the bass, go for a used T5P 2nd Gen. It has a much more defined bass than the DT1770pro and even greater soundstage and sounds great with the DFR Red


----------



## Tennessee

svemo said:


> @Tennessee: If you're into the soundstage of the DT1770pro but didn't like the bass, go for a used T5P 2nd Gen. It has a much more defined bass than the DT1770pro and even greater soundstage and sounds great with the DFR Red


 

 I was aiming for shure 1540 now, but I think your idea is better. Gonna take few weeks to find one in good price though...


----------



## andrewski

When I implemented the jitterbug, the difference was subtle and welcome. When I upgraded from a quality generic OTG cable to the dragontail for Android, the difference was huge and awesome. Seemed to open up my tightest bottleneck


----------



## rad7

The DFB 1.5 seems like an awesome DAC for it's size and price. But if I am on a limited budget & don't want to spend so much money for now, how good is the HIFIME SABRE USB DAC's SQ (like this one)? I mostly listen to chillstep, ambient trance, trap music, post-rock, etc and I like good, but not overwhelming bass and a non-fatiguing sound signature in general. Also, I mainly use my iems to listen to music from my laptop and android phone and I don't have headphones that are hard to drive.


----------



## Saaki

Does the Dragonfly Black also have volume issues with Android or is it just a problem with the Dragonfly Red?


----------



## georgelai57

I just plugged in the Apple USB 3 adapter into my iPhone 6S and there was an update. I definitely don't want to be a guinea pig


----------



## Bighappy

georgelai57 said:


> I just plugged in the Apple USB 3 adapter into my iPhone 6S and there was an update. I definitely don't want to be a guinea pig



 


Me too...Wonder what they updated?


----------



## musicisthekey

I did the update. To my ears, it sounds maybe a touch less bright and fuller. Most likely, it's just all in my head.


----------



## smellyoldgoat

shootertwist said:


> i got a prompt to update the apple camera adaptor usb 3.0, anybody updated already? i did not do it at first since it might bring back the pops/crack i heard using the 2.0 version, the 3.0 version has been great so far using with an iphone 7+


 
  
 No cracks, pops, or any discernible difference in sound quality on mine compared to the previous firmware.


----------



## Duncan

Just updated also, now waiting for the DFR to have the same treatment


----------



## waflet

duncan said:


> Just updated also, now waiting for the DFR to have the same treatment


 

 hideeho
 LOL


----------



## Slaphead

duncan said:


> Just updated also, now waiting for the DFR to have the same treatment




At this stage of the game I'm convinced that the DFR update will come in the form of DFR 2.0.

I suspect AQ are having trouble implementing MQA on the existing hardware, possibly because the DFR was never originally designed with MQA in mind, and I have a feeling that the available space for the firmware on the DFR is not enough to implement it, or at least implement it well.


----------



## Wiencon

I still don't get why MQA is such a big deal but what do I know :d
Does anybody know if the older CCK was also updated? Maybe it brings some improvement to cracks with DFR?


----------



## DancingBlue

musicisthekey said:


> I did the update. To my ears, it sounds maybe a touch less bright and fuller. Most likely, it's just all in my head.


 
  
 Same here, but to me it actually sounds A LOT less bright and full. In fact, going through the CCK, Jitterbug, and Red now sounds almost exactly the same as just plugging directly into the headphone jack.
  
 Completely disheartening.
  
 Luckily I have a second adapter which I will NOT update. A/Bing the two shows that there is indeed a difference to the sound, so no, it's not in your head  Something changed, and definitely for the worse.


----------



## Wiencon

dancingblue said:


> Same here, but to me it actually sounds A LOT less bright and full. In fact, going through the CCK, Jitterbug, and Red now sounds almost exactly the same as just plugging directly into the headphone jack.
> 
> Completely disheartening.
> 
> Luckily I have a second adapter which I will NOT update. A/Bing the two shows that there is indeed a difference to the sound, so no, it's not in your head  Something changed, and definitely for the worse.


 
 Welcome to Apple's world, when every update is for the worse


----------



## JakiChan

dancingblue said:


> Same here, but to me it actually sounds A LOT less bright and full. In fact, going through the CCK, Jitterbug, and Red now sounds almost exactly the same as just plugging directly into the headphone jack.
> 
> Completely disheartening.
> 
> Luckily I have a second adapter which I will NOT update. A/Bing the two shows that there is indeed a difference to the sound, so no, it's not in your head  Something changed, and definitely for the worse.




How do you think they could update a USB adapter that would impact the performance of a USB dac? That seems unlikely.


----------



## west0ne

jakichan said:


> How do you think they could update a USB adapter that would impact the performance of a USB dac? That seems unlikely.


 
 Could it be that audio data is now being passed straight to the DAC without going through the iOS CoreAudio Service or the other way around if it never went through CoreAudio before?
  
 It does seem odd that a firmware update to a USB connector would impact on  the sound signature because one would assume that data being fed to the DAC is data and that once in the DAC the DAC does its thing.
  
 The fact that the firmware in the adapter can be updated suggests that it does something more than just pass data straight through so it is perfectly conceivable that a firmware change could have other changes.
  
 For now I've told my wife and son not to update their adapters when prompted.


----------



## DancingBlue

west0ne said:


> Could it be that audio data is now being passed straight to the DAC without going through the iOS CoreAudio Service or the other way around if it never went through CoreAudio before?


 
  
 This is very much what it seems like -- that the iphone DAC is now being used and then...I don't know what. That, as you say, analog audio data is being passed to the Dragonfly? But can the Dragonfly even accept analog audio? Or is the CCK RE-digitizing the data for the DragonFly to decode all over again, but now only at the quality level of what the iPhone DAC decoded to begin with? It's DACs all the way down.
  
 If I have time I'll trawl the Apple forums and see if anyone there has some insight.


----------



## west0ne

dancingblue said:


> This is very much what it seems like -- that the iphone DAC is now being used and then...I don't know what. That, as you say, analog audio data is being passed to the Dragonfly? But can the Dragonfly even accept analog audio? Or is the CCK RE-digitizing the data for the DragonFly to decode all over again, but now only at the quality level of what the iPhone DAC decoded to begin with? It's DACs all the way down.
> 
> If I have time I'll trawl the Apple forums and see if anyone there has some insight.


 
 I wasn't suggesting that analogue audio was being passed the the Dragonfly as that isn't how these things work. I was thinking more that CoreAudio was perhaps doing some sort of DSP and that this may have somehow changed with the firmware update. It would be the difference between bitperfect and not bitperfect. What I am not sure about is how CoreAudio works with USB DACs, looking at a technical flowchart it looked very similar to the way in which Android media services work.
  
 In any case it was conjecture as I don't have any insider technical knowledge.


----------



## DancingBlue

west0ne said:


> I wasn't suggesting that analogue audio was being passed the the Dragonfly as that isn't how these things work. I was thinking more that CoreAudio was perhaps doing some sort of DSP and that this may have somehow changed with the firmware update. It would be the difference between bitperfect and not bitperfect. What I am not sure about is how CoreAudio works with USB DACs, looking at a technical flowchart it looked very similar to the way in which Android media services work.
> 
> In any case it was conjecture as I don't have any insider technical knowledge.


 
  
 Well yes, I realize that's not how these things work (programmer here, including audio software) which is why I presented the absurd scenario I did; I have no idea what they did to the CCK, but they definitely did something. It is indeed possible that they changed something in the handshake from the CCK which is causing the OS to pass manipulated data. Might even be a bug.


----------



## abinhk

I've updated my CCK 3.0 and I don't hear any discernible difference with my DFR. I intentionally listened to a few of my favourite songs before and after to ensure I would notice any change to the sound.


----------



## crystal6tak

Just received my DFB yesterday. I'm getting hiss/noise and I'm wondering if it's defect or normal?
  
 My listening device includes ath-a700x, cx 3.00, and two lg quadbeat 2 (an old one with one side ripped off, and another new one I got recently)
  
 I've tried listening on my desktop, surface pro 3 (laptop), and nexus 5x (phone).
  
 Desktop and surface pro 3 reacts the same. For cx 3.00 and new quadbeat 2, there's incredibly slight/inaudible hiss at volume 0-5% (windows speaker volume). Afterwards, increasing volume increases hiss.
 For ath-a700x, incredibly slight/inaudible hiss at volume 0-25%. Afterwards, increasing volume increases hiss.
 For old quad beat 2, incredibly slight/inaudible hiss at volume 0-50%. Afterwards, increasing volume increases hiss.
 Listening volume is 1-4% for the cx 3.00 and quadbeat 2 (any higher my ear bursts)
 Listening volume is 1-11% for the ath-a700x.
  
 On my phone, there's a constant hiss (around the same as 25% on my desktop/surface) regardless of volume.
  
 I have an old dac/amp fiio e07k (that the DFB was supposed to replace as the fiio started having random popping noise). This dac/amp also gives hiss. A constant (around the same as 25% with DFB) hiss regardless of the volume (in the e07k, not windows).
  
 So um, any idea if it's a defect? Or normal? 
 If it's a defect, should I return and get a new one?
 If it's normal, anyone recommend a usb dac (or dac/amp) at the $100-200 range (with very low noise floor)?


----------



## fishda

Just got mine today.galaxy note 2> dragon fly red > he400s is just sublime. Wish i could have bought these long ago.


----------



## rad7

fishda said:


> Just got mine today.galaxy note 2> dragon fly red > he400s is just sublime. Wish i could have bought these long ago.


 
 That's nice to hear!
  
 What version of android is your phone running on?


----------



## tarainfo

dancingblue said:


> Same here, but to me it actually sounds A LOT less bright and full. In fact, going through the CCK, Jitterbug, and Red now sounds almost exactly the same as just plugging directly into the headphone jack.
> 
> Completely disheartening.
> 
> Luckily I have a second adapter which I will NOT update. A/Bing the two shows that there is indeed a difference to the sound, so no, it's not in your head  Something changed, and definitely for the worse.




Thank you for bringing this up. As a result I avoided updating mine. It sounds fine now. Don't fix what's not broken

Thanks again


----------



## Wiencon

tarainfo said:


> Thank you for bringing this up. As a result I avoided updating mine. It sounds fine now. Don't fix what's not broken
> 
> Thanks again


Good call but I seriously doubt it is possible that the update could affect DAC quality in any way. It's just 0s and 1s transmitted through USB


----------



## fishda

rad7 said:


> That's nice to hear!
> 
> What version of android is your phone running on?




My phone's using cyanogenmod


----------



## DancingBlue

wiencon said:


> Good call but I seriously doubt it is possible that the update could affect DAC quality in any way. It's just 0s and 1s transmitted through USB


 
  
 That's why a couple of us were wondering what happened in the update. Another person here updated their CCK and said the sound didn't change. So far, for two of us it did, for one it didn't. 
  
 Wondering how others upgraded. I did the upgrade with the DF plugged in; maybe for some inexplicable reason that had something to do with it?
  
 I can't logically or rationally suss out what happened, but the change in sound is WAY too noticeable for it to be placebo effect.


----------



## UNOE

pkcpga said:


> citsur86 said:
> 
> 
> > So was the "Late January" DFB and DFR update promise just smoke and mirrors?
> ...




AQ also originally marketed DF's with firmware upgrade ability. I remember hearing this before red and black were out. I would have expected at least one firmware update, even if MQA never came out.


----------



## MrMusic

dancingblue said:


> That's why a couple of us were wondering what happened in the update. Another person here updated their CCK and said the sound didn't change. So far, for two of us it did, for one it didn't.
> 
> Wondering how others upgraded. I did the upgrade with the DF plugged in; maybe for some inexplicable reason that had something to do with it?
> 
> I can't logically or rationally suss out what happened, but the change in sound is WAY too noticeable for it to be placebo effect.




I share the same experience, things are not quite the same after the CCK 3 update. I noticed directly that the sound had changed in some way, (definitely not in a good way!)
I did remove my DFR before performing the update, but still with this result...


----------



## pkcpga

dancingblue said:


> That's why a couple of us were wondering what happened in the update. Another person here updated their CCK and said the sound didn't change. So far, for two of us it did, for one it didn't.
> 
> Wondering how others upgraded. I did the upgrade with the DF plugged in; maybe for some inexplicable reason that had something to do with it?
> 
> I can't logically or rationally suss out what happened, but the change in sound is WAY too noticeable for it to be placebo effect.




I updated my cck and hear no change but I'm using it with a mojo now and dac was not plugged in when updated. The update did ask me to disconnect everything attached to my cck cable before continuing.


----------



## mattaustin6

Hi, just waiting to receive my Red so browsing reviews. Came across this guys review for Stereophile and he claims that the sound quality from an iPhone is much worse than when it's plugged into his laptop:
  
 http://www.stereophile.com/content/audioquest-dragonfly-red-black-usb-da-headphone-amplifiers-page-2#5PHmlPYbofqeBvdZ.97


> *DragonFly Black and Red with iPhone*
> After the experiences described above, there were no more surprises: Having now abandoned both hi-fi system and computer in favor of my iPhone 6 Plus, I didn't expect to hear grand sound from either of the new DragonFlys—and I didn't.
> The fact is, even after confirming that its equalization function—available by selecting Settings, then Music, then EQ—was disabled, music played from my iPhone, with or without an outboard DAC, seemed to conform to a hi-fi–like curve, with boosted and blurry bass and, to a lesser extent, boosted highs.
> 
> Read more at http://www.stereophile.com/content/audioquest-dragonfly-red-black-usb-da-headphone-amplifiers-page-2#yRWWZXPCHTttEuSg.99


 
  
 Has anybody noticed this, I'm wondering if he's a hifi head that doesn't understand the digital analog distinction, or is it power draw? Seems odd.
  
 Thanks.


----------



## abinhk

Yes. My DFR definitely sounds much better (a thicker, fuller sound) out of a laptop than it does from an iDevice.


----------



## Slaphead

mattaustin6 said:


> Hi, just waiting to receive my Red so browsing reviews. Came across this guys review for Stereophile and he claims that the sound quality from an iPhone is much worse than when it's plugged into his laptop:
> 
> http://www.stereophile.com/content/audioquest-dragonfly-red-black-usb-da-headphone-amplifiers-page-2#5PHmlPYbofqeBvdZ.97
> 
> ...







abinhk said:


> Yes. My DFR definitely sounds much better (a thicker, fuller sound) out of a laptop than it does from an iDevice.




Almost certianly power draw. An iPhone limits the output to 100mA. If the device requires more than that then it'll trigger the "Device not compatible" message.

A bog standard USB port, hub or otherwise should be able to deliver 500mA. Given that the voltage output of a USB hub or iPhone will be 5V, then you've got a lot more power on tap with a standard USB port.


----------



## mattaustin6

Wow, ok, the only thing I can think is the software presents different data or the Dragonfly capitalises on an increase in power, not that I'm an expert.
  
 Received mine, wonderful device. Really tangible improvement on my ess9018 based hifime.


----------



## mattaustin6

​Replied before I read yours. I guess you must be right.


----------



## Wiencon

Has anybody compared DFR to Xduoo XD-05 maybe? They are exactly the same price in my country, DFR has better form factor but XD offers a lot of additional features but the sound is most important question


----------



## VintageFlanker

I asked to Audioquest about the next (first) firmware upgarde of DFR/DFB. Here is the answer:
  
 "The MQA update will be available to download for free via the Desktop Manager app on our website: http://www.audioquest.com/dragonfly-series/#downloads.  Barring any unforeseen issues, it should be available in the next couple of weeks or so.  If you registered your Dragonfly, you will receive an email when it's available.
  
 Best regards,
  
 Alasdair Patrick
 AudioQuest
 2621 White Rd., Irvine, CA 92614
 AQ Main: 949-585-0111 
www.audioquest.com"


----------



## good sound

vintageflanker said:


> I asked to Audioquest about the next (first) firmware upgarde of DFR/DFB. Here is the answer:
> 
> "The MQA update will be available to download for free via the Desktop Manager app on our website: [COLOR=0000FF]http://www.audioquest.com/dragonfly-series/#downloads[/COLOR].  Barring any unforeseen issues, it should be available in the next couple of weeks or so.  If you registered your Dragonfly, you will receive an email when it's available.
> 
> ...




They have been saying a week or two for months now.


----------



## SpiderNhan




----------



## VRacer-111




----------



## musicisthekey

Apple released iOS 10.3 update yesterday. Has anyone tried a USB 2 adapter with the update? I wonder if it solved the problem with pops and clicks.


----------



## Tennessee

@svemo
 I followed your suggestion, got myself new t5p2 on ebay for 800€... and they are perfect with DFR! Finally something that I am happy with.


----------



## Slaphead

good sound said:


> They have been saying a week or two for months now.




The thing about firmware updates is that it's often better to never have them than it is to have them rushed out and bricking devices in the process.


----------



## good sound

slaphead said:


> good sound said:
> 
> 
> > They have been saying a week or two for months now.
> ...




That's fine, then Audioquest shouldn't be constantly promising the firmware update at a certain time and then breaking the promise. They have done it several times. They should just say it will be ready when it's ready. They have been dangling the carrot then pulling it back and Dragonfly owners are just supposed to say nothing about it?


----------



## svemo

tennessee said:


> @svemo
> I followed your suggestion, got myself new t5p2 on ebay for 800€... and they are perfect with DFR! Finally something that I am happy with.



Congrats on the purchase, I'm glad you like them too!  In my opinion, they're even better with Brainwavz HM5 angled pads which very subtly boost the bass and don't break the bank. Check out the Beyer T5P thread for some more info


----------



## dacari

> "The MQA update will be available to download for free via the Desktop Manager app on our website: http://www.audioquest.com/dragonfly-series/#downloads.  Barring any unforeseen issues, it should be available in the next couple of weeks or so.  If you registered your Dragonfly, you will receive an email when it's available.


 
  
 I can not understand how a such prestigious brand has this kind of behaviour, it must be really difficult if impossible to update, I bet we will see new dragons than an update for this generation.


----------



## smellyoldgoat

Some people are reporting issues with USB DACs on iOS 10.3. I just tried my DFB 1.5 with the USB 3.0 CCK on my 7 Plus and everything seems fine so far.


----------



## DancingBlue

musicisthekey said:


> Apple released iOS 10.3 update yesterday. Has anyone tried a USB 2 adapter with the update? I wonder if it solved the problem with pops and clicks.


 
  
 For me, it did not.
  
 (I previously posted about the CCK3; I also have a CCK2)


----------



## kgs51

I just purchased the audioengine A5+ speakers from crutchfield. I am looking for a portable USB Dac that will improve the sound of the speakers only. I am not interested at this point in improving the sound quality of headphones. I have narrowed down to audioquest dragonfly black or audioengine D3. I enjoy sound that has a nice bass to it without becoming overwhelmed.


----------



## kgs51

kgs51 said:


> I just purchased the audioengine A5+ speakers from crutchfield. I am looking for a portable USB Dac that will improve the sound of the speakers only. I am not interested at this point in improving the sound quality of headphones. I have narrowed down to audioquest dragonfly black or audioengine D3. I enjoy sound that has a nice bass to it without becoming overwhelmed.


 

 In addition how do they compare to the FiiO dacs.


----------



## good sound

kgs51 said:


> I just purchased the audioengine A5+ speakers from crutchfield. I am looking for a portable USB Dac that will improve the sound of the speakers only. I am not interested at this point in improving the sound quality of headphones. I have narrowed down to audioquest dragonfly black or audioengine D3. I enjoy sound that has a nice bass to it without becoming overwhelmed.




Don't know how much help this will be. I own the A5+ and have tried a couple of USB DACs with them on my Windows 7 PC,my FiiO X5 Gen 1 and a Dragonfly Red. Surprisingly, very surprisingly actually, I didn't find there to be any real noticeable improvement with either USB DAC. I was fully expecting there to be significant improvement having read so much about how poor the sound quality is with the majority of standard PC soundcards. It's possible, I suppose, that I may have a better than average soundcard in my PC, but I doubt it, seeing as my HP tower is very entry level. It's also possible that I have some setting(s) incorrectly set, even though I have done a little research on this and best I can tell my PC is set up properly. It's also possible that it could be due to the fact that I use JRiver Media A center to playback my music files.I admit I am at a loss to explain why this is. Moving to the Audioengine speakers themselves produced a marked improvement in the sound quality of playback from my PC compared to the cheap Logitech ones they replaced.


----------



## Pastapipo

My DFB is showing right channel issues. Have to push the DFB to one side of my usb port on my PC and Laptop to get full stereo.
 Lets see if it keeps up.


----------



## VRacer-111

kgs51 said:


> I just purchased the audioengine A5+ speakers from crutchfield. I am looking for a portable USB Dac that will improve the sound of the speakers only. I am not interested at this point in improving the sound quality of headphones. I have narrowed down to audioquest dragonfly black or audioengine D3. I enjoy sound that has a nice bass to it without becoming overwhelmed.




Have never used powered monitors, but l just recently (last weekend) connected my Samsung Tablet with Dragonfly Red to my HT via front RCA input on the receiver (NAD T747), and using analog bypass mode on the receiver, passed the signal straight throught to the NAD C 275BEE stereo amp driving my Polk RTi A5 mains.... bass was INCREDIBLE....extremely deep, articulate, and hard hitting. And the mids and highs were extremely detailed and precise.

Since you are going with powered speakers and not headphones, you might want to look at the DFR over the DFB...


----------



## Tennessee

vracer-111 said:


> Have never used powered monitors, but l just recently (last weekend) connected my Samsung Tablet with Dragonfly Red to my HT via front RCA input on the receiver (NAD T747), and using analog bypass mode on the receiver, passed the signal straight throught to the NAD C 275BEE stereo amp driving my Polk RTi A5 mains.... bass was INCREDIBLE....extremely deep, articulate, and hard hitting. And the mids and highs were extremely detailed and precise.
> 
> Since you are going with powered speakers and not headphones, you might want to look at the DFR over the DFB...


 

 Doing the same... Samsung Galaxy Tab S2 -> USB Audio Player Pro with Tidal HiFi (bit-perfect) -> AQ OTG cable -> AQ Jitterbug -> DFR (pre-amp) -> Pioneer SC1224 (Pure Analogue Direct - RCA) class D amp -> Dynavoice DF-6.
 And the bass is by far the best I have ever heared from those speakers. Mids and highs were always great, yet got  slightly better.


----------



## kgs51

vracer-111 said:


> Have never used powered monitors, but l just recently (last weekend) connected my Samsung Tablet with Dragonfly Red to my HT via front RCA input on the receiver (NAD T747), and using analog bypass mode on the receiver, passed the signal straight throught to the NAD C 275BEE stereo amp driving my Polk RTi A5 mains.... bass was INCREDIBLE....extremely deep, articulate, and hard hitting. And the mids and highs were extremely detailed and precise.
> 
> Since you are going with powered speakers and not headphones, you might want to look at the DFR over the DFB...


 

 Thanks everyone for your help


----------



## stuck limo

vintageflanker said:


> I asked to Audioquest about the next (first) firmware upgarde of DFR/DFB. Here is the answer:
> 
> "The MQA update will be available to download for free via the Desktop Manager app on our website: http://www.audioquest.com/dragonfly-series/#downloads.  Barring any unforeseen issues, it should be available in the next couple of weeks or so.  If you registered your Dragonfly, you will receive an email when it's available.
> 
> ...


 
  
 That's a flat out lie by them.


----------



## andrewski

stuck limo said:


> That's a flat out lie by them.


Why? Because it's been two months? Is everything else in your life on time? It's unlikely the update will serve your needs anyway. Love my DFR


----------



## SpiderNhan

Well... If two weeks from now the update isn't released then he'll be right.

What's the saying? History repeats?


----------



## andrewski

They are sharing their intent to release an update. No deadline provided (thank goodness)


----------



## alessio-cpt

Hello guys, do you think the dragonfly black or red will pair well with a pair of DUNU dn-1000?  Which one would be better?
 I read some reviews complaining about the dragonflies' performance with low impedance iems (http://passionforsound.lachlanfennen.com/audioquest-dragonfly/). Mine are only 10 ohms.
 Maybe someone has some hand-on experience here 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 P.S. I am a noob, but isn't this in contrast with the 1/8th rule? From what I understood, the maximum output impedance should be less than 1/8th of the headphone's one.
 ~0.5 < 10/8 = 1.25
 Maybe issues are due to something else?


----------



## west0ne

andrewski said:


> They are sharing their intent to release an update. No deadline provided (thank goodness)


 
 The cynicism comes from the fact AQ have been sharing their 'intent' for months now and anytime someone asks when the answer is 'a couple of weeks'. How many times can you really get away with saying that and expect people to trust you.
  
 Personally it doesn't really bother me because I have no issues using my DFB and at the time of purchase I never expected MQA so if it does ever come it is a bonus feature.


----------



## andrewski

I apologize everybody. My earlier attitude isn't ever necessary. Of course I understand the cynicism. But with a device as versatile as that, I imagine it's difficult to update without introducing new problems. Because I don't stream, I like how it works now. There's a lot more available on 16-bit wav than MQA ... and still sounds better


----------



## Gonzbull

It shouldn't be difficult. They're just stalling. Lots of other hardware I use that is way more complex have had multiple firmware updates. No problems whatsoever.


----------



## Gonzbull

I updated my iPhone 5s to iOS 10.3 and now my CCK2 is unsupported. No biggie for me but just a heads up. Time to get a new CCK 3

I guess Apple updated the USB 3 CCK to work with iOS10.3. And the old CCK without the firmware update is now obsolete for those running the latest iOS.


----------



## jegnyc

gonzbull said:


> I updated my iPhone 5s to iOS 10.3 and now my CCK2 is unsupported. No biggie for me but just a heads up. Time to get a new CCK 3
> 
> I guess Apple updated the USB 3 CCK to work with iOS10.3. And the old CCK without the firmware update is now obsolete for those running the latest iOS.




Wow - that's a USD$40 update for a lot of people - and maybe not just Dragonfly owners. Not for me as I already had the USB3 CCK. But even so, the smaller size of the old CCK meant it was more convenient sometimes.

So far, I haven't updated my software (as the new features did not interest me). Now I will wait.


----------



## Gonzbull

Yup the old CCK actually works for a few seconds but the 'this device is incompatible' bubble pops up and all goes silent. It does the same after a restart.


----------



## hornytoad

gonzbull said:


> Yup the old CCK actually works for a few seconds but the 'this device is incompatible' bubble pops up and all goes silent. It does the same after a restart.




The old CCK audio quality stinks compared to the newer version with the power port . 
I just wished the new CCK wasn't so damn big .


----------



## Slaphead

gonzbull said:


> I updated my iPhone 5s to iOS 10.3 and now my CCK2 is unsupported. No biggie for me but just a heads up. Time to get a new CCK 3
> 
> I guess Apple updated the USB 3 CCK to work with iOS10.3. And the old CCK without the firmware update is now obsolete for those running the latest iOS.




Ouch - that's a bit irritating. 

It's not really a big deal for me as I'll just pass by the Apple store today and pick up a couple more of the CCK3 to replace my current CCK2s. (Although one is being used with an older iPod touch 5th gen which won't need to be replaced)

That said I can imagine that a lot of people here don't have a spare 40 bucks just to replace an adapter that, up until the iOS update, was working fine.


----------



## Gonzbull

hornytoad said:


> The old CCK audio quality stinks compared to the newer version with the power port .
> I just wished the new CCK wasn't so damn big .



Well that's good to know. Forced SQ improvement by Apple. I use my phone pretty rarely for listening so no dramas. Hope the AQ firmware drops soon and Tidal gets MQA to their iOS app. Might use it more often then


----------



## Wiencon

gonzbull said:


> I updated my iPhone 5s to iOS 10.3 and now my CCK2 is unsupported. No biggie for me but just a heads up. Time to get a new CCK 3
> 
> I guess Apple updated the USB 3 CCK to work with iOS10.3. And the old CCK without the firmware update is now obsolete for those running the latest iOS.


Sorry but I really doubt that's tha case. Apple doesn't ever drop support for hardware accessories, I mean a lightning dock from 2013 or HDMI dongle work with every lightning equipped device no matter which OS version. I am 100% this is not planned and might be a bug with your device


----------



## Gonzbull

wiencon said:


> Sorry but I really doubt that's tha case. Apple doesn't ever drop support for hardware accessories, I mean a lightning dock from 2013 or HDMI dongle work with every lightning equipped device no matter which OS version. I am 100% this is not planned and might be a bug with your device




Well it I guess it might be a bug although is it highly coincidental that the cck would stop working after the update. I've had no problems till now. No pops or clicks even. 
Only way to know is if others experience the same problem and chime in.
Funny thing is that after a restart of my phone, the CCk passes audio for a few seconds before the warning pops up and it goes quiet. The DFB stays green but audio comes out the phone speakers. Ive been using Tidal.
No point discussing old tech eh. I'm getting a CCk3 today. That should solve the problem.


----------



## DancingBlue

CCK2 works fine for me on in iPad mini 4 and iPhone 6s+ both updated to 10.3.
  
 I still have the clicks and pops problem with the DFR though, so I use a CCK3 with that.


----------



## Swedindo

Hi, I am a newbie here.
Just wondering if anyone has any experience with using dragonfly red + android + USB audio player pro app compared to any music players on iPhone. 
I have both phones (S7 edge + iPhone 7+) but want to migrate from Android to iPhone for a music player. 
I've been using USB audio player pro (Android) for sometime and love the bit perfect feature. 

And what are your music player recommendations for an iPhone? 

Thanks, 

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


----------



## Wiencon

swedindo said:


> Hi, I am a newbie here.
> Just wondering if anyone has any experience with using dragonfly red + android + USB audio player pro app compared to any music players on iPhone.
> I have both phones (S7 edge + iPhone 7+) but want to migrate from Android to iPhone for a music player.
> I've been using USB audio player pro (Android) for sometime and love the bit perfect feature.
> ...


If you want higher than 44.1khz files then definitely VOX music player, incredible app that plays every hi res format, has sleek and intuitive interface, queues and it can play your Spotify library if you have premium account.
If you want to play your iTunes library then Doppi, I tested literally all paid and free players on iOS and found this one to be the best, it has the best interface, supports lyrics, doesn't have bugs with playback (that most of players that use Apple Music playback process do have). And it's free and constantly being improved

I use Doppi most of the time and VOX when I want to shuffle between my iTunes and Spotify library, it's such a cool feature. Vox is 3.99 IIRC but it's worth much more than that


----------



## Swedindo

Thank you, you really nailed it.. 

I recently subscribed to tidal in Android and it's a good match with UAPP app. Actually that's the best package we (Android users) could get in combination with a dragonfly for now. 

Still curious regarding the bitperfect feature.. Will there be one in those apps? 
Or will iPhone automatically bypass its internal dac completely while using the dragonfly? 
I'm sort of expecting in equal Sq coming from iPhone just like the dragonfly does with my android + uapp bitperfect feature.. 


Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


----------



## zolom

After re-trying the RED again, I decided to purchase it regardless of the volume control issue with my android s7edge.
  
 Listening to it with my SE846 IEMs:
 - Great (really great!) to listen to Tidal (HiFi)  via  USB Audio Player  Pro (Bit-Perfect mode) - complete volume control
 - Reasonable Tidal (Hifi) without the USB Audio Player Pro - volume of S7edge set to 90%-100%
  
 Waiting for the AQ firmware upgrade (I was promised by an email from AQ that the volume issues of the RED with android should be addressed)
  
 My DFB went to my son who enjoys them with his A-Audio Legacy 32 ohm headphones


----------



## Wiencon

swedindo said:


> Thank you, you really nailed it..
> 
> I recently subscribed to tidal in Android and it's a good match with UAPP app. Actually that's the best package we (Android users) could get in combination with a dragonfly for now.
> 
> ...


 
 I honestly don't know what bitperfect is so forgive me for not answering that question
 Doesn't Android automatically bypass internal DAC in phone and directs signal to USB? I thought it would be standard in 2017 
 iPhone automatically bypasses internal DAC while using CCK with DAC
 SQ should be the same unless there are major differences in voltage that phone can feed to Dragonfly, someone here posted that he gets better sound from DFR lugged into the laptop than into the phone and that is probably because higher power output of the laptop.


----------



## west0ne

wiencon said:


> I honestly don't know what bitperfect is so forgive me for not answering that question
> Doesn't Android automatically bypass internal DAC in phone and directs signal to USB? I thought it would be standard in 2017
> iPhone automatically bypasses internal DAC while using CCK with DAC
> SQ should be the same unless there are major differences in voltage that phone can feed to Dragonfly, someone here posted that he gets better sound from DFR lugged into the laptop than into the phone and that is probably because higher power output of the laptop.


 
 Android does bypass the internal DAC when a USB DAC is connected but unless you use UAPP or another app with its own USB device driver audio will still be going through the Android MediaServer which means it is not bitperfect and Android will be doing it's own EQ/DSP to the audio stream.
  
 iOS also bypasses the internal DAC, what I am not sure of is whether or not audio would still go through the iOS CoreAudio service and be affected by its EQ/DSP.


----------



## fuzzybabybunny

I just got back from testing out both the red and the black at the same time. 

I've got a rooted Samsung S5 with LineageOS Nougat. 

The really low volume issue appears only on the Red and the Black is totally fine. What? AQ says its an Android issue but why does the Black work perfectly fine while the Red doesn't? Like I said, I just tried them side by side on the same phone. One worked and one didn't. Seems like the problem is with the Red and not Android.

Anyway, do I risk buying a Red? It seems that people have been asking for months for an update, which never comes...


----------



## Duncan

Scary thought of the day, listening to a pair of HiFiMan RE2000 IEMs through the DFR, and the combination is truly fantastic... 

I can already feel my wallet crying unashamedly in my pocket


----------



## Swedindo

@wiencon no problemo mate

@westone it seems that we are on the same boat here, dfr + uapp = fantastic combo! 

It's been a while since dfr came out to the market, I hope that someone has a clue on this or do some independent tests. 

I've read a test on the stereophile website, comparing dfr on Windows vs iPad. Even Windows OS still need some work around to bypass the internal process like using a Wasapi program. 

I guess the only way I can do here is getting a cck and compare it myself by using a tool that I already have which will make more arguments.. My ears..  

I hope someone in the dragonquest would see into this too and respond to this. 
I'm still not sure why there's no standard across the devices / OS for bypassing the internal dac. In the meanwhile we can only simply just have to plug the usb device to those devices..





Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


----------



## west0ne

fuzzybabybunny said:


> I just got back from testing out both the red and the black at the same time.
> 
> I've got a rooted Samsung S5 with LineageOS Nougat.
> 
> ...


 
 Both the Red & the Black have the volume issue in so far as when you connect them to Android the internal hardware volume is set below the maximum level; the way in which the volume is controlled differs between the Red & the Black so the Black ends up with a higher default volume but you still aren't getting the maximum volume from either.
  
 The internal hardware volume of the DFB has 64 steps, when attached to Android it is set at 44 so you still have some room to go.
  
 The issue is definitely with Android, even with other USB DACs the volume controls in Android have no impact on the internal hardware value being set at the DAC, most DACs when attached default to 100%.
  
 Essentially when you attach a USB device to Android there is a 'handshake' process where the device sends over various bits of information, in the case of the DFB/DFR it is telling Android to set the internal hardware volume to less than 100%. In all likelihood any fix from AQ will just be a simple change to this enumeration process so that they tell the host that the volume should be 100%. Normally for linux based systems the ALSA will take care of setting the internal hardware volume and you can use ALSA on rooted Android devices to get full volume on the DFB/DFR. Android has a layer in between the software and hardware that deals with volume but means that direct hardware control of the DAC doesn't work.


----------



## Swedindo

fuzzybabybunny said:


> I just got back from testing out both the red and the black at the same time.
> 
> I've got a rooted Samsung S5 with LineageOS Nougat.
> 
> ...




Hi, 
No, you're on the right track..  In my knowledge, all other external USB dacs/amps have their own issues in regards to USB otg connections to some OS as well.. 
Just a thought, try to download UAPP (USB audio player pro) app. I don't have any volume problems with that app. 


Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


----------



## Duncan

Agreed also, no issues with UAPP, or on iOS, with the Onkyo app


----------



## zolom

Hope tha AQ will, at least, strengthen the volume level (enumeration value) higher for the DFR connected to android devices


----------



## fuzzybabybunny

No, I'm not getting UAPP. I'm happy just streaming my music off of Amazon Prime because its free. And I'm not paying for Tidal. So basically the Red is useless for people on Android who stream Amazon Prime, Google, or Spotify. That's a lot of people.


----------



## fuzzybabybunny

Looks like AQ won't be doing anything. People have been asking for a fix on the volume issue for half a year now. Just goes to show that even if you get something that advertises firmware updates it doesn't mean squat if the manufacturer doesn't care to make said updates.


----------



## Swedindo

duncan said:


> Agreed also, no issues with UAPP, or on iOS, with the Onkyo app




Nice! I'm glad that you've mentioned that onkyo app. I've read good reviews on that app..
In your opinion, how's the Sq on that app + iPhone compared to Android + uapp (both with DFR)? 

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


----------



## fuzzybabybunny

west0ne said:


> Both the Red & the Black have the volume issue in so far as when you connect them to Android the internal hardware volume is set below the maximum level; the way in which the volume is controlled differs between the Red & the Black so the Black ends up with a higher default volume but you still aren't getting the maximum volume from either.
> 
> The internal hardware volume of the DFB has 64 steps, when attached to Android it is set at 44 so you still have some room to go.
> 
> ...




My phone's rooted on Nougat. How do I gain control of ALSA?


----------



## west0ne

fuzzybabybunny said:


> My phone's rooted on Nougat. How do I gain control of ALSA?


 
 If you have a look back through some of my earlier posts in this thread there are detailed instructions. It is a workaround  but it will give you what you want.


----------



## Duncan

swedindo said:


> Nice! I'm glad that you've mentioned that onkyo app. I've read good reviews on that app..
> In your opinion, how's the Sq on that app + iPhone compared to Android + uapp (both with DFR)?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


it's really good, very clean sounding, however there is no bit perfect option, and (on the iPhone 7 Plus at least) an issue with the sample rate drifting to 48khz (requiring a restart of the app to resolve), and with the usb2 CCK, popping every now and then... When I get home, will try my usb3 CCK to see if that is the same...

Also, with apples archaic approach, the loading of the files is cumbersome (file manager via iTunes, although does play back your iTunes library just fine if that's how you roll) 

A couple of candid negatives, but the Onkyo App is free so long as you don't have hi res FLAC files... Definitely worth the punt on the free version


----------



## Swedindo

duncan said:


> swedindo said:
> 
> 
> > Nice! I'm glad that you've mentioned that onkyo app. I've read good reviews on that app..
> ...




Thanks a lot bro! 
I've just spent some time tinkering with the Onkyo app and paid the premium.. Lol 
But I couldn't find a way to play tidal hi res files. Or it doesn't work like uapp + tidal?
I still prefer tidal vs iTunes.. 
Their MQA 24bit streaming files, free for 3 authorized devices (my wife got one ), and their temporary downloadable files feature on the go are my cup of tea.. 
My cck2 and cck3 will be delivered in a few days..  
Will update the results.. 

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


----------



## zolom

I gave my DFB and got the DFR, for its SQ improvement while playing Tidal hifi via UAPP (bit perfect). It sounds great with the Shure se846.
I cannot root, my organization does not permit access for rooted phones, therefore I installed the Fine Volume Control V2 app which enables me to overcome the nasty highest android s7e volume step. For music played not via UAPP, I can fine tune the volume to a value between 85%-90% and there the DFR+se846 really shine!

Still waiting for the firmware upgrde.


----------



## Duncan

Apologies if this is very old news, however I didn't realise on the default Apple Music player that the DF(R) is classed as an airplay device... sat at 44.1khz (green) - actually quite happy about this


----------



## fuzzybabybunny

Guhhhhhh... I just bought a DFR after doing a test listen between it and the DFB. 

Some background: I bought my Westone W60 because I thought that the Shure 846s were too sparkly. They're not very sparkly, but just enough that I thought I would get ear fatigue with long listening. I get zero ear fatigue with my W60s. I thought, OK, whatever. Maybe it's personal taste.

Anyway, the DFR is definitely a but more sparkly and cutting in the highs around 5500 Hz than the DFB, but it's totally fine on my W60s, so I bought them. 

I then took my new DFR and tried them on a bunch of different over the ear headphones. 

ATH-AD1000X
ATH-WS1100
Pioneer SE-MS5T-T
Bowers and Wilkins P9 Signature
Ultrasone Edition 8 EX

They were ALL much too sparkly with the DFR that they physically hurt, especially around the 5500 Hz range. 

These all should be really high-end headphones. I certainly don't expect all of them to be practically unlistenable.

So are my ears just screwed up? Or is it the DFR?


----------



## Gonzbull

fuzzybabybunny said:


> Guhhhhhh... I just bought a DFR after doing a test listen between it and the DFB.
> 
> Some background: I bought my Westone W60 because I thought that the Shure 846s were too sparkly. They're not very sparkly, but just enough that I thought I would get ear fatigue with long listening. I get zero ear fatigue with my W60s. I thought, OK, whatever. Maybe it's personal taste.
> 
> ...




I'd suggest listening to other elements in the music. Maybe you're focusing on the 5500hz range and that's making it more prominent that it actually is?


----------



## andrewski

I don't understand the mysticism of burn in. But I read on the internet to run it for 150 hours. I ran it for 175 hours from a laptop to some headphones, and noticed a big improvement to the bass after checking at 50 hours. I think most of my burn in effect is learning to listen, but I'll still recommend running it for 50 hours. Or something


----------



## VintageFlanker

fuzzybabybunny said:


> Guhhhhhh... I just bought a DFR after doing a test listen between it and the DFB.
> 
> Some background: I bought my Westone W60 because I thought that the Shure 846s were too sparkly. They're not very sparkly, but just enough that I thought I would get ear fatigue with long listening. I get zero ear fatigue with my W60s. I thought, OK, whatever. Maybe it's personal taste.
> 
> ...




That sounds strange to me.

I'm very, very, (VERY) sensitive to highs and high mids when these are too bright or there is too much sparkle. That's why warmer or darker sources still my favourites. However, I don't have to complain at all with the DFR on this point. I must be the first time I like a Sabre-inside source which is not too bright or sparkly!


----------



## zolom

Here as well, the DFR does not sound too sparkly at all. Comparing to the DFB it sounds clearer (especially when streaming higher bandwidth streaming - like Tidal FLAC at bit perfect mode). My DFR did not experience a significant burn-in yet.


----------



## wildpanda86

I'm new to all this. 

I just got my DFR + Apple CCK (version 3 I think) connected to my iPhone 7. 

So if I subscribe to the Tidal premium service am I able to stream the hi resolution audio to my iPhone 7 and output through the DFR? Do I need to be on wifi to do that? Does it allow me to upload hi resolution albums on the Tidal app via wifi so I don't have to use up all my data? How many devices can I have Tidal on? 

Sorry for all the questions, I tried searching iPhone + Tidal + DFR but some threads are saying they have it working whereas other threads are saying the DFR is still pending a firmware update from audioquest to do it.


----------



## tieuly1

It is quite really weird as my DFR + Apple CCK version 3 did not sound better in low end as I connect directly DFR from Laptop
 I dont really like to sit with laptop to enjoy a full power


----------



## coolcrew23

That sho





wildpanda86 said:


> I'm new to all this.
> 
> I just got my DFR + Apple CCK (version 3 I think) connected to my iPhone 7.
> 
> ...




That should work perfectly as that is also my current setup. The update is for issues with android and mqa for desktop tidal.


----------



## jegnyc

wildpanda86 said:


> I'm new to all this.
> 
> I just got my DFR + Apple CCK (version 3 I think) connected to my iPhone 7.
> 
> ...







coolcrew23 said:


> That sho
> That should work perfectly as that is also my current setup. The update is for issues with android and mqa for desktop tidal.




I think it depends on what wildpanda86 meant by hi resolution. At present, you can get CD quality out of Tidal on your computer and also on your iPhone. You can also get hi res, courtesy, of Tidal's software implementation of MQA, but only on the desktop app. You didn't need a separate MQA decoder for that. AQ has been promising that it's update (no need for comments about delays - I'm getting bored with them) will provide a theoretically superior (as I understand it) hardware implementation of MQA. However it is unclear to me whether the Tidal stream to the iPhone will be sent in the MQA format to allow for decoding by AQ.


----------



## wildpanda86

jegnyc said:


> I think it depends on what wildpanda86 meant by hi resolution. At present, you can get CD quality out of Tidal on your computer and also on your iPhone. You can also get hi res, courtesy, of Tidal's software implementation of MQA, but only on the desktop app. You didn't need a separate MQA decoder for that. AQ has been promising that it's update (no need for comments about delays - I'm getting bored with them) will provide a theoretically superior (as I understand it) hardware implementation of MQA. However it is unclear to me whether the Tidal stream to the iPhone will be sent in the MQA format to allow for decoding by AQ.


 

 So you're saying with an iPhone + Dragonfly I can't take advantage of the higher resolution files with Tidal's premium service? The highest quality I can get is CD quality?


----------



## good sound

wildpanda86 said:


> jegnyc said:
> 
> 
> > I think it depends on what wildpanda86 meant by hi resolution. At present, you can get CD quality out of Tidal on your computer and also on your iPhone. You can also get hi res, courtesy, of Tidal's software implementation of MQA, but only on the desktop app. You didn't need a separate MQA decoder for that. AQ has been promising that it's update (no need for comments about delays - I'm getting bored with them) will provide a theoretically superior (as I understand it) hardware implementation of MQA. However it is unclear to me whether the Tidal stream to the iPhone will be sent in the MQA format to allow for decoding by AQ.
> ...




Correct, but not just with i-Phone,this goes for any portable device, for now.


----------



## jegnyc

good sound said:


> Correct, but not just with i-Phone,this goes for any portable device, for now.


 
 The one thing we don't know is whether the promised hardware upgrade from AQ will change that.  However that will depend on whether Tidal streams MQA encoded files to portable devices.


----------



## SpiderNhan

good sound said:


> Correct, but not just with i-Phone,this goes for any portable device, for now.



On Android, using USB Audio Player Pro, you can access MQA through Tidal. I don't have an MQA DAC to get the full unfolding, but I do receive a 24-bit stream. Other users who have MQA DACs have reported full MQA streaming on their Android devices.


----------



## pkcpga

fuzzybabybunny said:


> Guhhhhhh... I just bought a DFR after doing a test listen between it and the DFB.
> 
> Some background: I bought my Westone W60 because I thought that the Shure 846s were too sparkly. They're not very sparkly, but just enough that I thought I would get ear fatigue with long listening. I get zero ear fatigue with my W60s. I thought, OK, whatever. Maybe it's personal taste.
> 
> ...




With certain headphones and IEM's I found the DFR to be too bright but it was pretty good with others. Unfortunately not every dac will work with every headphone it differs for everyone. I did notice the DFR works better connected to a desktop over mobile device when used with full sized headphones, portable devices limit the power supply to the DF to me this makes them sound even brighter since they become even more bass light.


----------



## pkcpga

spidernhan said:


> On Android, using USB Audio Player Pro, you can access MQA through Tidal. I don't have an MQA DAC to get the full unfolding, but I do receive a 24-bit stream. Other users who have MQA DACs have reported full MQA streaming on their Android devices.




Are they using a desktop version of Tidal because the mobile version is not mqa compatible yet, just curious how they're getting mqa through a mobile device?


----------



## SpiderNhan

pkcpga said:


> Are they using a desktop version of Tidal because the mobile version is not mqa compatible yet, just curious how they're getting mqa through a mobile device?



It's a small workaround. The Tidal mobile app does not display whether or not an album is the Masters version, only the desktop app does. However, when a Masters album or track is added to favorites on the desktop app, the same Masters can be accessed via USB Audio Player Pro by logging into Tidal through the USB Audio Player Pro interface and selecting songs in your favorites list.


----------



## jegnyc

spidernhan said:


> It's a small workaround. The Tidal mobile app does not display whether or not an album is the Masters version, only the desktop app does. However, when a Masters album or track is added to favorites on the desktop app, the same Masters can be accessed via USB Audio Player Pro by logging into Tidal through the USB Audio Player Pro interface and selecting songs in your favorites list.




Do you know which piece of software is doing the partial unfolding? Is it UAPP or the Tidal Android App?


----------



## SpiderNhan

jegnyc said:


> Do you know which piece of software is doing the partial unfolding? Is it UAPP or the Tidal Android App?



There is no partial unfolding on any mobile app. On UAPP, once you enable Bit Perfect playback, you'll be able to access the MQA file which will only be unfolded if it's fed into an MQA-enabled DAC. Otherwise you just get a 24/44.1 or 24/48 with the MQA de-blurring already embedded in it. Either way, I prefer them to the regular Hifi files.


----------



## tieuly1

I am not sure what I listen from DFR when I upgrade firmware for CCK3- The sound from IPad start to thinner with less bass and it is even worse sound in comparison direct 3.5 mm connector which would never happen before even the with the light on. 
 Can anyone know how to reboost it to firmware 1.0.1 instead of 1.0.5 for CCK 3


----------



## Wiencon

I'm starting to think that buying Onkyo or Oppo DAC (basically mfi certified) is much more safe because who knows what Apple will screw up in next update. Those things aren't dependend on other accessories so less chance to have problems with them


----------



## Slaphead

wiencon said:


> I'm starting to think that buying Onkyo or Oppo DAC (basically mfi certified) is much more safe because who knows what Apple will screw up in next update. Those things aren't dependend on other accessories so less chance to have problems with them




MFI certification is no guarantee that a device won't be broken by a future update. I have a device, not audio related, that was MFi certified on iOS 9, but iOS 10 broke it because Apple changed the APIs that this device used. It's been confirmed by the manufacturer that it will never work on anything above iOS 9.

I had 6 months use out of it before it became landfill.


----------



## jegnyc

wiencon said:


> I'm starting to think that buying Onkyo or Oppo DAC (basically mfi certified) is much more safe because who knows what Apple will screw up in next update. Those things aren't dependend on other accessories so less chance to have problems with them


 
 Ummmm - take a look at the recent posts on the Oppo threads.  (I own both.)


----------



## Wiencon

jegnyc said:


> Ummmm - take a look at the recent posts on the Oppo threads.  (I own both.)



That sucks. Maybe I shouldn't have sold my FiiO X7 ...


----------



## Swedindo

Hi guys, 
I just received my dragontail and tinkered with it. I was listening to a hotel California track (tidal mqa 24 bit) in uapp with DFR, I thought I heard some weird sound on 0:23 - 0:34.. There's a sound like a car / plane just bypassing you.. Try it!  
Is the artist really meant to put this 'car/plane' sound or a problem with the recording even though it's classified as mqa?
I've compared the sound between dfr and just the regular headphone jack on S7 edge and they produced the same sound. 
Perhaps there's someone who loves eagles songs and have their original cd album can confirm this.. 

Cheers, 

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


----------



## jegnyc

swedindo said:


> Hi guys,
> I just received my dragontail and tinkered with it. I was listening to a hotel California track (tidal mqa 24 bit) in uapp with DFR, I thought I heard some weird sound on 0:23 - 0:34.. There's a sound like a car / plane just bypassing you.. Try it!
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I heard what I think you're referring to on both the MQA (Tidal desktop) and the DVD-A.  I'm pretty sure it's always been part of the recording.


----------



## Mikle39

guys anybody use it with Focal Elear and Iphone7?
  
 how is the sound?


----------



## pkcpga

mikle39 said:


> guys anybody use it with Focal Elear and Iphone7?
> 
> how is the sound?




I have the focal utopias and have used them with the dfr, unfortunately this was not a good pairing. The dfr is too bright and under powered, thins the sound and can make poor recordings or bright recordings not listenable. Still will play at a high enough volume with the iPhone 7plus. Both focals match well with the mojo, I demod both that way before buying the utopia.


----------



## jayboy76

CCK2 on iphone 7 plus running 10.2 suddenly decided to stop supporting Dragonfly red. CCK2 detects the red and then after a few seconds of Spotify audio drops out the support and a pop up on "unsupported accessory" comes on.reboot doesn't help. Wth. Doubt it's a 10.3 firmware issue now.


----------



## tieuly1

jayboy76 said:


> CCK2 on iphone 7 plus running 10.2 suddenly decided to stop supporting Dragonfly red. CCK2 detects the red and then after a few seconds of Spotify audio drops out the support and a pop up on "unsupported accessory" comes on.reboot doesn't help. Wth. Doubt it's a 10.3 firmware issue now.



Updste 10.3.1 then it comes back to normal


----------



## Mikle39

thanks, which guy method u prefer do listen music on Iphone7 with Elear?
  
 Do you prefer 3-rd party apps and how you download music?


----------



## Gonzbull

tieuly1 said:


> Updste 10.3.1 then it comes back to normal




Well I've updated to 10.3.1 and the problem persists.


----------



## Duncan

Different CCK?

I bend mine behind the phone, and the cable has started to bulge at the bend...


----------



## Gonzbull

CCk 2. Exact same problem as jayboy76. I figured I had a bung CCK but that's obviously not the case. 
iPhone 5s running 10.3.1. CCK2 is no longer supported.


----------



## wildpanda86

gonzbull said:


> Well I've updated to 10.3.1 and the problem persists.




Great I just bought a red for my headphones and a black to leave plugged in my car... so far everything has been working but I'm not updated to 10.3 yet.


----------



## Swedindo

@ jegnyc Thank you for your response 

I have another question regarding the DFR.. 
I'm considering to buy a warm and lay back sound signature headphones since imho the DFR amp sounds bright and neutral across frequencies.. It was compared with my other reference iem. 
Could anyone confirm this sound signature or have different experiences? 
Just wondering if some of you have another different amps to test with..

Cheers! 


Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


----------



## Wambo

I have been following this thread and wanted to confirm whether anyone with CCk 3, iphone 6 plus has upgraded to 10.3.1?

With all the compatibility concerns, I have been reluctant to upgrade. 

Thanks!


----------



## Gonzbull

I've just found this. I might give it a try. 

http://www.lavricables.com/cables/reference-silver-lightning-to-audioquest-dragonfly-dac-interconnect-cable-by-lavricables/


----------



## pkcpga

gonzbull said:


> I've just found this. I might give it a try.
> 
> http://www.lavricables.com/cables/reference-silver-lightning-to-audioquest-dragonfly-dac-interconnect-cable-by-lavricables/




Very nice no cck cable is needed, going to order one as well for my mojo. Nice find.


----------



## gmalik

Best combo:
- Targus usb hub 4port 2.0 
- Aq Df Red
- Aq Jitterbug
- Camera kit (lightning)

Clearer ,warmer and direct sound with the Targus hub, because the Red get a higher voltage (mA)!!!!!!!!


----------



## Mike Oliveira

I can't use my DFB (with cck 1)in my iphone since the new update...any way to fix it?


----------



## Duncan

All fine here (UK) with the DFR and iPhone 7 Plus on the original CCK...


----------



## jegnyc

duncan said:


> All fine here (UK) with the DFR and iPhone 7 Plus on the original CCK...


 
 What version of iOS?


----------



## Mike Oliveira

duncan said:


> All fine here (UK) with the DFR and iPhone 7 Plus on the original CCK...


 
  
  
 Even with the new update?


----------



## bmoregnr

Apologies for not reading this whole thread, but nothing came up when I tried to search so I wanted to ask (I am using an iphone 5 with older cck kit into some etymotic iems, and have not had any issues) but is it normal for the DFB to make a soft crunching noise when the player goes idle and then again when it turns back on.  I figured it is the DAC powering on and off making the noise, but wanted to know if anyone else is getting that.


----------



## Mike Oliveira

bmoregnr said:


> Apologies for not reading this whole thread, but nothing came up when I tried to search so I wanted to ask (I am using an iphone 5 with older cck kit into some etymotic iems, and have not had any issues) but is it normal for the DFB to make a soft crunching noise when the player goes idle and then again when it turns back on.  I figured it is the DAC powering on and off making the noise, but wanted to know if anyone else is getting that.


 
  
 yes, i always get that noise...and a lot of hiss, pops and clicks in songs...


----------



## bmoregnr

mike oliveira said:


> yes, i always get that noise...and a lot of hiss, pops and clicks in songs...


 
 Yes I am reading about the constant pops/clicks cropping up now, I guess I would need the usb 3.0 cck if I upgrade the phone.


----------



## Duncan

mike oliveira said:


> Even with the new update?





jegnyc said:


> What version of iOS?


10.3.1... Can play quite happily for extended periods - with or without the jitterbug attached (which was a question posed to me -if the jitterbug made a positive difference)

Version 10.3.1 (14E304) if there are regional variations or otherwise - and, the CCK (USB2) that I'm using is one of the very original ones from when they were first released - if that may make a difference.

To confirm the above...


----------



## DancingBlue

gonzbull said:


> I've just found this. I might give it a try.
> 
> http://www.lavricables.com/cables/reference-silver-lightning-to-audioquest-dragonfly-dac-interconnect-cable-by-lavricables/


 
  
 Thanks for posting this! Just ordered one with EMS shipping. No idea how long it'll take to get here, but I'll post impressions once it does.


----------



## Wiencon

Why should it make any difference to the sound? DFR receives just 0s and 1s, what's the point of 100$ cable if it transmits the same data as 1$ one?
 I'm not hating, just curious


----------



## andrewski

wiencon said:


> Why should it make any difference to the sound? DFR receives just 0s and 1s, what's the point of 100$ cable if it transmits the same data as 1$ one?
> I'm not hating, just curious


A common misconception. I'm no expert, but I've experienced a variety of results with speaker wire, audio cables (rca/3.5mm), hdmi cables, headphone cables, and otg adapters. You typically get what you pay for


----------



## Wiencon

andrewski said:


> A common misconception. I'm no expert, but I've experienced a variety of results with speaker wire, audio cables (rca/3.5mm), hdmi cables, headphone cables, and otg adapters. You typically get what you pay for


Yes but the cables you mentioned carry analog signal (not sure about HDMI )
The lightning port (and USB) is fully digital so it can only output binary information as I said before so it should not make any difference what cable is used unless it works


----------



## andrewski

I had tried four otg adapter that all sounded about the same (different connection issues, insignia from best buy was the worst). Then I bought dragontail for Android, and the difference was huge


----------



## wildpanda86

wiencon said:


> Why should it make any difference to the sound? DFR receives just 0s and 1s, what's the point of 100$ cable if it transmits the same data as 1$ one?
> I'm not hating, just curious




I didn't want to be the first to mention that too... it's just a data cable and it won't affect the sound. Also with this $100 cable you don't have an extra port to charge like the Apple cable. Lastly you could potentially loose compatibility after a software update since it's not even Apple certified.


----------



## andrewski

But can you hear music with pops and clicks? So it's getting 1's and 0's? This is above me, so I'll stop


----------



## DancingBlue

For me it's about form factor. The CCK3 is bulky (can't use the CCK2 because of clicks and pops) and has a stiff cable. I'm happy to pay $100 for a more svelte connector.


----------



## andrewski

My monstrosity


----------



## DancingBlue

andrewski said:


> My monstrosity


 
 Ahahaha I can appreciate that.
  
 CCK3 + JitterBug + DFR. I too use velcro to attach the whole mess to the back of my phone.


----------



## SpiderNhan

My setup:


----------



## wildpanda86

dancingblue said:


> For me it's about form factor. The CCK3 is bulky (can't use the CCK2 because of clicks and pops) and has a stiff cable. I'm happy to pay $100 for a more svelte connector.




On my CCK2 I've got Velcro on the back... I just Velcro the DFR to the back of my phone and it's pretty compact as far as form factor goes. 

I've also got a Dragonfly Black that I have connected in my car as well. iPhone mounted on my dash to lightning to lightning extension to the Apple CCK 3 hidden in my center armrest connected to a Dragonfly Black outputting into an aux input in the armrest and a lightning cable plugged into a USB plug in the center armrest to keep everything charged... so it's just one wire hidden behind the paneling leading up to the dash


----------



## CyberGhost

Guys, I'm thinking of getting Dragonfly for my Grado SR225.

I wonder have any of you ever had Echo Indigo card? How does Dragonfly compare to it?

I also can't decide between black or red.

Finally, while I like portability, it will be used in a desktop environment. Is there perhaps something better at this price range but not much larger in size?


----------



## Slaphead

wiencon said:


> Why should it make any difference to the sound? DFR receives just 0s and 1s, what's the point of 100$ cable if it transmits the same data as 1$ one?
> I'm not hating, just curious







wildpanda86 said:


> I didn't want to be the first to mention that too... it's just a data cable and it won't affect the sound. Also with this $100 cable you don't have an extra port to charge like the Apple cable. Lastly you could potentially loose compatibility after a software update since it's not even Apple certified.




It really comes down to how susceptible the USB cable is to RF interference. Some cables are better at handling (or rejecting) it than others

That interference won't affect the data as the signal level of the data is considerably higher than that of the interference, and the data will still be able to be read verbatim. However, any interference that the cable carries will propagate through the entire electrical system of the DAC/Amp, and while this interference may not be heard directly it does affect the analog signal emerging from the headphone jack, or line level outputs. The effect of the interference is often heard in terms of a hardness or brittleness to sound as there's a lot of high frequency content in RF interference.

A lot of higher end equipment uses a method called Galvanic Isolation to stop this interference propagating through the system. There are several methods to achieve this, but what all these methods have in common is that they allow only the wanted signal through and suppress everything else. As an example, connecting your DAC to your source with an optical cable is a form of galvanic isolation, as the optical cable can transmit information, but it cannot transmit electrical noise.

Now, if we go back to the change in sound that a noisy USB cable makes, there's something that can be counterintuitive going on. The hardness and brittleness heard with a noisy cable is often interpreted as more detail and air, and therefore it's often considered to be the better cable, despite it's electrical failings.

The truth is that it probably doesn't matter if you spend $1 or a $100 dollars on a USB cable (although I would tend to stay away from the $1 cable as there a probably compromises in it's construction) as it's still a crap shoot as to what you'll get in terms of whether it's a bad noisy cable (which may sound brighter) or a good quiet one (which may sound duller). That said, the differences between a good and a bad cable can be extremely subtle so IMO you're best off staying at around the $10 - $20 mark as these cables are likely to be fairly well constructed and reliable.


----------



## zidius

has anyone try apple's Lightning to USB 3 Camera Adapter and the regular one side by side ? my DFR works fine with the regular one ( no static etc )  but if the USB3.0 one really sounds better like Audioquest 's claim , i don't mind switching to the 3.0 - listen to music + charging at the same time is pretty convenient


----------



## andrewski

Thank you @Slaphead. It's largely because of you I went back to a flat eq after a couple of decades of bloated bass and profiles. Can't thank you enough for that. Bit perfect on UAPP is a dream


----------



## Duncan

zidius said:


> has anyone try apple's Lightning to USB 3 Camera Adapter and the regular one side by side ? my DFR works fine with the regular one ( no static etc )  but if the USB3.0 one really sounds better like Audioquest 's claim , i don't mind switching to the 3.0 - listen to music + charging at the same time is pretty convenient


There is a difference, I believe I can hear one, the USB3 one seems a little bit smoother up top, but to be fair, we're pretty much splitting hairs here - and if being conducted under a formal blind A/B test, I think anyone would be hard pushed to get this consistently right (my test just now has been with simple acoustic music - would be harder to pick up with busier tracks IMHO)...

Don't lose any sleep over it - other than if the pops / crackles on the USB2 version are intrusive (not everyone picks up on them as is your case, or has them in the signal path to begin with)

[Edit] - One downside of the USB3 version is the thicker cable - the USB2 version can easily fold over on itself (so the DF sits flush on the back of the phone, and is still pocket friendly) - The USB3 version, being a thicker cable, not so (for jeans anyway)... suitably depicted below:



...Oh, and I tried to play the USB2 out of the USB3 (as shown above) - didn't work


----------



## Mike Oliveira

Can anyone help me get the best sound of my setup? iPhone SE > Tidal HiFi / Spotify > Apple usb3 > DFB > Headphones...
  
 I see a lot of people talking about third part apps and bit perfect stuff to improve the sound on android phones, how does that works on iOS? Is iOS just plug and play or should i do something different? Sorry but im a complete noob!


----------



## Wiencon

Yes, iOS is plug and play. For hi res music I definitely recommend Korg's iAudiogate or VOX for music playback, both have modern design and a lot of useful features with basically every hi-res format compatibility. iAudiogate has more settings for audiophiles though


----------



## bmoregnr

gonzbull said:


> I've just found this. I might give it a try.
> 
> http://www.lavricables.com/cables/reference-silver-lightning-to-audioquest-dragonfly-dac-interconnect-cable-by-lavricables/


Is that usb3 I didn't see it mentioned.


----------



## Mike Oliveira

wiencon said:


> Yes, iOS is plug and play. For hi res music I definitely recommend Korg's iAudiogate or VOX for music playback, both have modern design and a lot of useful features with basically every hi-res format compatibility. iAudiogate has more settings for audiophiles though


 
  
 Thanks man! What about Mac? Same as iphone? Plug and play? and what app for hi-res music?


----------



## Swedindo

swedindo said:


> @ jegnyc Thank you for your response
> 
> I have another question regarding the DFR..
> I'm considering to buy a warm and lay back sound signature headphones since imho the DFR amp sounds bright and neutral across frequencies.. It was compared with my other reference iem.
> ...




Hi, does anyone have any thoughts on this? If not, I probably should ask people in a specific headphones thread because I'm going to get the new headphones on Monday..  

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


----------



## kismetsky




----------



## coolcrew23

swedindo said:


> Hi, does anyone have any thoughts on this? If not, I probably should ask people in a specific headphones thread because I'm going to get the new headphones on Monday..
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk




I use Audio Technica M50x as my daily headphones for these. So far so good. 

For desktop i pair this a schiit vali amp for warmth and hd600.


----------



## Swedindo

coolcrew23 said:


> swedindo said:
> 
> 
> > Hi, does anyone have any thoughts on this? If not, I probably should ask people in a specific headphones thread because I'm going to get the new headphones on Monday..
> ...




Could you please describe the sq when using dfr + AT M50X compared to hd600? 
For the simplicity sake, only on high and low frequencies response.. 
And which one is warmer or a bit rolled of in high frequencies for you? 

Cheers, 

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


----------



## Wiencon

kismetsky said:


>


Wow, is it your creation?


----------



## kismetsky

wiencon said:


> Wow, is it your creation?




It's the CCK3 wrapped in Velcro to give it stiffness and structure.


----------



## Gonzbull

duncan said:


> 10.3.1... Can play quite happily for extended periods - with or without the jitterbug attached (which was a question posed to me -if the jitterbug made a positive difference)
> 
> Version 10.3.1 (14E304) if there are regional variations or otherwise - and, the CCK (USB2) that I'm using is one of the very original ones from when they were first released - if that may make a difference.
> 
> To confirm the above...




Hi Duncan,

My CCK2 is version A1441 and it's no longer supported.


----------



## Duncan

gonzbull said:


> Hi Duncan,
> 
> My CCK2 is version A1441 and it's no longer supported.


Wonder if that is a consistent thing then, that A1440 is ok but A1441 is not? 

Hopefully others can chime in with their CCK version, and if working or not.

Either way, I would hope iOS 10.3.2 will resolve


----------



## Wiencon

Would be interesting if those of you that say old CCK is unsupported tried it with different devices not necessarily audio type


----------



## DancingBlue

duncan said:


> Wonder if that is a consistent thing then, that A1440 is ok but A1441 is not?
> 
> Hopefully others can chime in with their CCK version, and if working or not.
> 
> Either way, I would hope iOS 10.3.2 will resolve


 
  
 I'm on 10.3.1 (iPhone 6S+) and my CCK2 A1440 also works fine (well, other than the occasional clicks and pops problem some of us experience, which is why I switched to the CCK3).


----------



## Swedindo

Hi guys,


I hope this will help some people who wants to use their DFR with a HD600 vs HD650 since it's hard to find a review regarding those combos.


Here's my report :

I've just went to a retail store and auditioned the HD600 and HD650 for half an hour each (straight from the new box).

I was using s7 edge + DFR + Dragontail + UAPP (bit perfect) + several 16 bit and 24 bit test tracks..


a. The DFR with a dragontail + HD600. This combo sounded superior in mids and highs vs HD650. Very clear in vocals and acoustic guitars, but the highs were a bit too bright for my liking in a bright lights bigger city (cee loo) song track. Even though its not as bright as my iem hifiman re272 (analytcal). People say that the HD600 has a bit rolled off in high freqs and I can confirm that they're right.. But it's not as analytical.. Don't be afraid to choose this combo because the highs will make you fatigue for listening in hours (I'm not a fan of bright high freqs either)..

The vocals sounded like the singer is standing in front of you which is the best thing, you could hear the singer breath, articulations and other small things from their vocals..

The DFR amp will drive the HD600 in good manners. I could listen at max to 80% hardware volume.. More than 80% they will destroy ears.. 


b. The DFR with a dragontail +HD650. This combo sounded like a lay back headphones sound signature. I was wanted more highs from this combo but they were a bit (tad/tiny) better in base compared to the above combo. The mids and highs are definitely better on HD600. I don't really like how the vocals sounded in this combo. I could not clearly hear the breath of the singer if the volume was not put to high volumes.. And the singer seems standing far away.. The good thing was yes, you can hear any songs without any fatigue. I will say you can hear any songs for 24 hours..  This combo sounded a bit more like my DFR + my Arctis 7 but I would choose my arctis 7 for the separations, sound stage and more base.


And then.. I bought the HD600! 


My conclusions : 

1. The DFR amp is really a neutral sounding AMP! You just need to choose whatever headphones or iems you prefer (with their own sound signatures)..

2. The DFR amp will drive HD 600 / HD 650 (300 ohms) normally.

3. Dang! For the price / performance ratio, the DFR is da best! 


Test song tracks:

Diamonds and Rust (Joan Baez), Don't know why (Norah Jones), Hotel California, Packt like sardines (Radiohead), Bohemian Rhapsody (Queen), Boom boom pow (black eyed peas), Little saddie (cooked still), Bright lights bigger city (cee loo green), Jack of speed (steely dan), Brass monkey (Beastie boys).

I hope that helps,

Cheers!
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


----------



## shootertwist

^congrats on the purchase bro, i'm also using the DFR on my HD600 and they sound great, not the best of pairing but its more than adequate


----------



## Swedindo

shootertwist said:


> ^congrats on the purchase bro, i'm also using the DFR on my HD600 and they sound great, not the best of pairing but its more than adequate




Cheers bro! 
Try to listen to 'Bird on a wire by Johnny Cash, AMAZING voice bro!  

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


----------



## dmance

For those using a DFR with a windows laptop, i have a setup that I think provides the most transparency to my ATH-M50x headphones that rivals anything I've heard.
  

Laptop - Windows10 Lenovo Yoga Pro - just because it does not have a fan (or its so small as to be inaudible)
Jriver Media Center - overkiil for just audio ... but inexpensive and full featured.
Jriver settings: disable volume, set to exclusive mode and make sure to disable all DSP except Output Format - and here set the appropriate limits on sample frequency to limit to 88/96khz.
Bitsum Process Lasso - inexpensive app to prioritize windows processes and used by many in the pro-audio space.  Set MediaCenter.exe to 'Real Time' to ensure 100% disk and WASAPI audio processing.
A good USB2.0 cable from laptop ...this need not be expensive.
Laptop ⇒ Musical Paradise MP-U1 - this inserts an ultra clean +5V and ground into the USB feed.  Large regulated battery lasts several hours: I've never run out of power.
MP-U1 ⇒ Intona USB Isolator thru a short USB (from Belkin) -  this further filters the power lines and galvanically isolates and reclocks the data pins... doing a much better job than the Jitterbug.  Also the super clean +5V from the MP-U1 ensures the digital circuits of the Intona operate with minimal voltage noise.
Intona ⇒ Dragonfly RED - close coupled DAC now being fed with noiseless +5V (under 6uV) and perfect data
  
 Sure - there are other solutions - and perhaps less expensive.. but I like the step-by-step nature of this approach and I understand what each component in the chain is doing. Some pics:


----------



## coolcrew23

swedindo said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> 
> I hope this will help some people who wants to use their DFR with a HD600 vs HD650 since it's hard to find a review regarding those combos.
> ...




I also use hd600. To max it out may I suggest you use a good tube amp. I actually just use a schiit vali and it made the combo much sweeter!


----------



## Macduff

Listened to the red and black this weekend. Both are great, but I'd say the red is better in all facets. No surprise there but had to hear it for myself. Have been listening to my iphone 6+ cck3 and DFB since december with great pleasure.


----------



## baker12013

I've been using my DFR primarily with UAPP but started going through this thread recently to see if there had been progress on increasing volume levels for other audio players on Android, specifically Apple Music. Someone mentioned success with Fine Volume Control v2.0, so tried to play today, but now can't get any sound from Android/Apple Music/Amazon Music. I seem to remember before that there was some trick for settings in UAPP to allow it to play other software, but can't get anything working no matter where i put the settings. 
 Does anyone have a go to way of getting sound output from Android? I'm using a LG G4 running 6.0. Thanks


----------



## koover

Little confused here. Still very much a newbie so bare with me. 
When I input the DFR into my PC via US , it barely powers the HP 650. When I input into my IPhone 6s they are powered fine with the Apple lightning camera kit. 
Could it have anything to do with the stock little extention cable that comes with the 650's that is for inputting into the DFR. The 650 cable male peg is way too big for the DFR so I have to use the small Extension cable to input into the DFR.
I don't get it as I crank it 100% and it's not very loud at all.


----------



## CactusPete23

koover said:


> Little confused here. Still very much a newbie so bare with me.
> When I input the DFR into my PC via US , it barely powers the HP 650. When I input into my IPhone 6s they are powered fine with the Apple lightning camera kit.
> Could it have anything to do with the stock little extention cable that comes with the 650's that is for inputting into the DFR. The 650 cable male peg is way too big for the DFR so I have to use the small Extension cable to input into the DFR.
> I don't get it as I crank it 100% and it's not very loud at all.


 
 Adapter should not be the problem...   unless it is bad quality.
  
 More likely you may need to adjust the audio hardware volume up some.  (In Control Panel..... Hardware and Sound... Sound.. Manage audio Devices.. Right click on the DFR,,  Select properties, and adjust the Level Tab to 50% or higher as needed...  Peak Volume is set there..   If it's already 100%, then it's the cable or another problem...
  
 See if that helps


----------



## Devodonaldson

baker12013 said:


> I've been using my DFR primarily with UAPP but started going through this thread recently to see if there had been progress on increasing volume levels for other audio players on Android, specifically Apple Music. Someone mentioned success with Fine Volume Control v2.0, so tried to play today, but now can't get any sound from Android/Apple Music/Amazon Music. I seem to remember before that there was some trick for settings in UAPP to allow it to play other software, but can't get anything working no matter where i put the settings.
> Does anyone have a go to way of getting sound output from Android? I'm using a LG G4 running 6.0. Thanks


 spoke to Skyler over the weekend, in person. He told me they are really close on the fix for Android volume control. Not saying a week or two, but that it is a priority and they are close to figuring it out. It will be pushed out, and they won't be waiting on the MQA fix to do it. So once it's done we will get it. Until then the only options are 1, root install alsa_mixer and input volume command in terminal emulator, or 2, buy a small portable cheap amp like fiio A6 to give the extra volume, until the issue is resolved


----------



## koover

cactuspete23 said:


> Adapter should not be the problem...   unless it is bad quality.
> 
> More likely you may need to adjust the audio hardware volume up some.  (In Control Panel..... Hardware and Sound... Sound.. Manage audio Devices.. Right click on the DFR,,  Select properties, and adjust the Level Tab to 50% or higher as needed...  Peak Volume is set there..   If it's already 100%, then it's the cable or another problem...
> 
> See if that helps


M

Thanx. Should have said at the outset that it's already pegged at 100. 
Not sure what's going on but from what I've read, it shouldn't be a problem driving the 650's with the DVR.


----------



## Devodonaldson

koover said:


> Little confused here. Still very much a newbie so bare with me.
> When I input the DFR into my PC via US , it barely powers the HP 650. When I input into my IPhone 6s they are powered fine with the Apple lightning camera kit.
> Could it have anything to do with the stock little extention cable that comes with the 650's that is for inputting into the DFR. The 650 cable male peg is way too big for the DFR so I have to use the small Extension cable to input into the DFR.
> I don't get it as I crank it 100% and it's not very loud at all.


are you turning up the player volume, or the volume of the Dfr Itself?


----------



## zolom

baker12013 said:


> I've been using my DFR primarily with UAPP but started going through this thread recently to see if there had been progress on increasing volume levels for other audio players on Android, specifically Apple Music. Someone mentioned success with Fine Volume Control v2.0, so tried to play today, but now can't get any sound from Android/Apple Music/Amazon Music. I seem to remember before that there was some trick for settings in UAPP to allow it to play other software, but can't get anything working no matter where i put the settings.
> Does anyone have a go to way of getting sound output from Android? I'm using a LG G4 running 6.0. Thanks


 
  
 I am using Fine Volume Control, due to the issues caused by the Android S7E volume settings on the DFR with native music players,Tidal and Spotify: at the highest volume (100%) setting, my SE846, usually sound too high; stepping one volume level down, results in too low volume (~75%). Fine Volume Control, enables me to smoothly set the volume to 85%-90%, there the volume is perfect with the SE846.
 I hope this is a temporary solution to a problem that the coming DFR FW upgrade will resolve.
  
 BTW, with UAPP, all is perfect.


----------



## VRacer-111

koover said:


> M
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 


Hey Koover! Is the volume for the DFR maxxed AND the volume maxxed as well for whatever software application that is running? What software are you using to play audio on your PC? Hardware volume should be at least 95% output on the DFR setting and software volume adjusted as needed in program for harder to drive cans. My hardest to drive headphones (not really hard to drive) are Fostex T40RP and with DFR volume set to 20% they are plenty loud whether playing music from Foobar2K or watching Youtube videos. Just making sure you have ALL volumes up....


----------



## koover

devodonaldson said:


> are you turning up the player volume, or the volume of the Dfr Itself?[
> 
> I have it turned up to max volume on both the player and DFR.


----------



## CactusPete23

koover said:


> M
> 
> Thanx. Should have said at the outset that it's already pegged at 100.
> Not sure what's going on but from what I've read, it shouldn't be a problem driving the 650's with the DVR.


 
 Just wanted to be sure that you have the level at 100% on the device itself in Windows.   Turing up your Player volume to 100% won't give you 100% Real Volume, it will only give you 100% of whatever the Device Level is set to.... 
  
 What player are you using?  Can you try using FOOBAR2000, and select output as the DFR  (Select File,  Then Preferences, Then Output, Then Wasapi (event) DFR...)
  
 This would rule out the player you're using being the problem.
  
 Also, Are you using that 3.5mm adapter cable with the iPhone that is working well?  If so. it's not the adapter cable.  
  
 I'm not an "Apple" user.. so don't 100% understand all ways it can be connected to headphones.   Are you using the DFR with the IPhone?    If yes, then the DFR does seem to be working properly, and then you'd probably be using the same adapter from 3.5mm to your headphones, so that are Ok too. If you're not connected this way, don't follow why you'd need the Lightning cable kit...   Again, I'm not an Apple User...


----------



## AudioThief

Got the Dragonfly Red yesterday. This is my first amp and dac. I bough them primarily for laptop use with my Denon AH-D5000. 
  
 First off, the power on this little thing is quite impressive. To reach satisfactory volume on the laptop, I needed 100% in windows and somewhere between 50% and 100% on spotify. For some tracks, 100% wasn't enough even. Now, I'm at 10% - 30% on DFR and 100% on spotify.
  
 As for sound quality, it really did blow me away. I had only ran the D5K unamped and was quite happy with it and didn't really expect too much of an improvement, I just wanted to have an amp because people said it was an improvement to some degree. 
  
 What the DFR did with the sound of the D5K:
  
 - Better clarity
 - Better separation
 - Better soundstage and imaging
 - Tighter bass
 - Removed all bass bleed
 - More sub bass
 - Cleaner treble
 - More emotion to mids
  
 Everything just sounds better. I have no idea about this veil some people talk about. I was almost certain that 199$ was a bit steep for this product, but now I think its the other way around. It was a damn steal.


----------



## fuzzybabybunny

Ok, so I wanted to write a short guide on how to create a volume slider to control the DFR/DFB hardware volume on Android. Especially for people with the DFR, the default hardware volume level set in Android by default is often too low.
  
 Prerequisites: 
  
 Rooted Android Phone
 Tasker (on the Play Store)
 Termux (on the Play Store)
 AlsaMixer (it wasn't on the Play Store for me, but you can download the .apk from other websites)
  
 Summary:
  
 We're going to be creating an icon on the homescreen that when pressed, brings up a slider bar overlay that can be dragged along to adjust the hardware volume. I'm a Tasker noob, so I don't know how to create a widget slider that exists by itself on the homescreen. I'm personally doing this on my Samsung S5 running LineageOS Nougat and the DFR.
  
 Directions:
  
 ***Intro and Background***
  
 - plug in the DFR
 - open Termux and run these commands:


> su
> alsa_aplay -l


 
 - you'll get a list of playback devices. It'll be something like:


> card 0: ****************
> card 1: ****************
> card 2: ****************


 
 One of the cards should be labeled DragonFly.if USB OTG detected it properly. In my case, the DragonFly appears as card 1 if I plug in the DFR after Android has already booted. It appears as card 0 if the DFR is connected to the phone already before I've booted into Android. 
  
 Say that the DragonFly is card 1 (c1). If you run:


> su
> alsa_amixer -c1 set PCM 60%


 
 it will set the hardware volume to 60%. So basically we want to have a slider bar that, when changed, runs the following commands for you.
  
 *** Create a Slider Bar ***
  
 - Open Tasker
 - Click the "Scenes" tab. A slider is what Tasker calls a "scene," so we're going to create a new scene that includes a slider.
 - Click the "+" icon and give the new scene a name. I called mine "Hardware Volume." Press the checkmark.
 - Create a box in which you want the volume slider to appear in. This will actually be overlaid on the homescreen in the final product.
 - Click the magnifying glass with "X"
 - Long press on the screen to add an element or press the "+" icon.
 - Select "Slider" on the menu.
 - In the "UI" tab, give it a name, like "Hardware Volume," and set the min to 0 and max to 100 and the default to 50. 
 - In the "Value Selected" tab, click the "+" icon and in "Filter" type "shell" and select "Run Shell."
 - Under "Command" type this:


> su
> alsa_amixer -c0 set PCM %new_val%
> alsa_amixer -c1 set PCM %new_val%


 
   Ok, so what's happening here is that every time the slider gets moved, the above commands will run. "%new_val" is the name of a variable that Tasker automatically provides as part of the Slider. It's basically the instantaneous value of whatever the slider is set at, between 0 and 100 in our case. So if you draw the Slider to "56," "%new_val" will be "56," so the command would be "alsa_amixer -c1 set PCM 56%." As previously mentioned, these commands change the hardware volume. And since the DragonFly sometimes appears as card 0 and at other times appears as card 1, at least on my S5, I've set it to run the command for BOTH cards. In my case, if the DragonFly is in, say, card 0, running the command for card 1 doesn't affect anything, and vice versa. 
  
 - Checkmark "Use Root"
 - Hit the "Action Edit Run Shell" at the upper left to go back.
 - Hit the upper left button again.
 - Now drag the Slider to where you want it to appear on the screen.
 - Once done, hit the upper left button.
  
 Ok, you've finished creating the Slider bar and wiring it up to run the necessary commands when you slide it around. Now you need a way to display it. Oddly enough, Tasker doesn't seem to support simply turning the Slider into a widget and just dragging it onto the homescreen. The only apparent way is to create a button that opens the Slider scene, and to put that *button* on the homescreen.
  
 *** Create a Button to Open the Slider Scene ***
  
 - Open Tasker
 - Go to the Tasks tab and hit the "+" icon.
 - Create a name for this new task and hit the checkmark. I called mine 'ShowHardwareVolumeSlider'
 - Click the "+" icon to add an Action.
 - Select "Scene"
 - Select "Show Scene"
 - Hit the magnifying glass next to "Name" and select your slider scene that you made previously. In my case it's "Hardware Volume."
 - "Display As" should be "Activity, Full Window." 
 - Hit the upper left button "Action Edit"
 - At the bottom right hit the square boxes icon. Select the icon you want for this button that will show the slider. I used the built-in white microphone icon. 
  
 *** Add the Button to the Homescreen ***
  
 - Before you try and add a Tasker widget, Tasker should be shut down. So open Tasker, go to the upper right, and select "Exit."
 - Long press on the home screen.
 - Select "Widgets"
 - Select "Tasker Task 1 x 1" and drag it to the home screen.
 - Select your task for opening the slider scene. In my case it's "ShowHardwareVolumeSlider"
 - Press the upper left button to go back to the home screen.
 - The widget should now appear. Click on it and the slider bar should appear. Slide it around to easily adjust the hardware volume.


----------



## west0ne

@fuzzybabybunny -  if you connect the USB DAC after bootup has completed it should show as Card 1, if you attach the USB DAC before bootup it will show as Card 0.
  
 If you use 'appfactory' with Tasker you can turn what you have done into an app. I did something similar but actually created a drop down list with each of my headphones listed and used that to set the volume on a headphone by headphone basis.
  
 It's a good workaround for now, just a pity that it only works on rooted phones.


----------



## Swedindo

@ fuzzybabybunny

Wow, fantastic! 
You should have made an app for that and submit that to aq for $  To counter what they said that the mobile phones could not recognize the volume control very well by using a dfb/dfr. 
I use a non rooted s7e. It will be great if there is an app that could be made for non rooted users for that. 
Cheers! 

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


----------



## koover

vracer-111 said:


> koover said:
> 
> 
> > M
> ...




Hey man, how's it going?
Sorry for delayed response, at work.
Yeah, the DFR is maxed out along with the player. I'm wondering if it's the player I'm using. I'm running with the default player for windows 10 which I believe is Realtech. 
Will the player play that big of a part on the performance of the DFR and HO 650's?


----------



## koover

cactuspete23 said:


> Just wanted to be sure that you have the level at 100% on the device itself in Windows.   Turing up your Player volume to 100% won't give you 100% Real Volume, it will only give you 100% of whatever the Device Level is set to....
> 
> What player are you using?  Can you try using FOOBAR2000, and select output as the DFR  (Select File,  Then Preferences, Then Output, Then Wasapi (event) DFR...)
> 
> ...



I'm using the default windows 10 player which is Real tech. Everyone keeps mentioning Foobar so I need to install this player. 
For the IPhone, I am using the lightning camera kit because there was a lot of talk and feedback that people were having trouble with the regular camera kit. So instead of chancing it, I just spent a few extra bucks and it works flawlessly. The 650's are driven so much better on the IPhone compared to my PC so I'm now thinking after all the feedback I'm getting from you guys that it must be the player.
I'll install Foorbar2000 tonight or tomorrow and see if that works.
Thanks a lot you guys for assisting a amp/DAC virgin iwith my issues. It's appreciated.


----------



## SpiderNhan

swedindo said:


> @ fuzzybabybunny
> 
> Wow, fantastic!
> You should have made an app for that and submit that to aq for $  To counter what they said that the mobile phones could not recognize the volume control very well by using a dfb/dfr.
> ...




This isn't the fix that solves all volume issues, but Precise Volume does help mitigate that massive volume jump between steps 14 and 15 in native Android volume control. Beyond DFR fine tuning it's also great with sensitive IEMs that can be too loud or too quiet between volume steps. Now Ira Glass is no longer screaming at me on the subway.

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.phascinate.precisevolume


----------



## Swedindo

@ spiderhan 
I've just tested that precise volume app, it doesn't add any increase in volume with my HD600 + s7e + dfr + tidal Or perhaps should I pay the pro version? 

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


----------



## SpiderNhan

swedindo said:


> @ spiderhan
> I've just tested that precise volume app, it doesn't add any increase in volume with my HD600 + s7e + dfr + tidal Or perhaps should I pay the pro version?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk



No no. Don't buy it if your intention is to increase volume output. It will not do that for you. For the HD600 it is USB Audio Player Pro or bust. Precise Volume is for people getting too loud a volume at max and too little volume a step below max.


----------



## Swedindo

spidernhan said:


> swedindo said:
> 
> 
> > @ spiderhan
> ...




Cheers for that! 
I always use UAPP all this time.. Just wondering if there is a new update on the workaround for the volume issues in Android..  

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


----------



## CactusPete23

koover said:


> I'm using the default windows 10 player which is Real tech. Everyone keeps mentioning Foobar so I need to install this player.
> For the IPhone, I am using the lightning camera kit because there was a lot of talk and feedback that people were having trouble with the regular camera kit. So instead of chancing it, I just spent a few extra bucks and it works flawlessly. The 650's are driven so much better on the IPhone compared to my PC so I'm now thinking after all the feedback I'm getting from you guys that it must be the player.
> I'll install Foorbar2000 tonight or tomorrow and see if that works.
> Thanks a lot you guys for assisting a amp/DAC virgin iwith my issues. It's appreciated.


 
 Foobar2K is a great and free player, with a ton of other functionality..    However, it's a bit of a pain to set up the first time...  (Though l use it, for me there was a lack of instructions on how to set it up.  Kind of learned as I tried...)
  
 See if your current audio player has any "properties" or "Settings" and see if an audio or output setting might be set to limit volume in some way.  (Was that a vague but informative sentence???hahaha)   Anyway, your player might have a setting that can increase volume output...  Sorry, I have Win 10  but not that player "Real tech" that you mention.
  
 Update Suggestion:  If you have Windows Audio Player (Default win 10 player)...  Go to Control panel......  to Manage Audio Devices.. Set the DFR as Default.    Play your music through Win Audio Player and it should give full volume.     Just tried this on my PC...     Note that all error tones, etc will now come through the headphones...  NOTE, for me I can't get better than 16/44 through to the DFR with Windows Audio Player  (DFR stays magenta even with high res)
  
 (If you use Foobar2K and leave your standard audio driver as default, you'll only get clean foobar2k music through your headphones.  no other stuff. And can get all bit rates the DFR can handle...)
  
  
  
 Pete


----------



## waflet

cactuspete23 said:


> Foobar2K is a great and free player, with a ton of other functionality..    However, it's a bit of a pain to set up the first time...  (Though l use it, for me there was a lack of instructions on how to set it up.  Kind of learned as I tried...)
> 
> See if your current audio player has any "properties" or "Settings" and see if an audio or output setting might be set to limit volume in some way.  (Was that a vague but informative sentence???hahaha)   Anyway, your player might have a setting that can increase volume output...  Sorry, I have Win 10  but not that player "Real tech" that you mention.
> 
> ...


 

 Hideeho
 I'm pretty sure "realtech" is an Asus thing, not a win10 thing. It is an overlay to change audio settings & manage inputs/ouputs. I still use it to manage my mod mic, but disable everything else in it.


----------



## shamu144

I purchased a DFB 3 months ago, and I was not very impressed by its performance for playback out of my wife's windows 10 laptop (when allowed). I am using the tidal app for desktops. The sound was a bit unrefined to my ears (kind of shouty and forward sounding), even when plugged into a jitterbug. For reference, the Meridian Explorer 2 sounds much better to my ears on the same computer (better separation, smoother, and generally a more refined sound). 
  
 Another big issue for me on the laptop was volume control. For some reasons (too much gain ?), I can only use 6% to 10% of the master volume setting before getting a sound which is too loud from my headphones, despite not being extremely sensitives (Beyerdynamic DT250-80ohms and Sony MDR7520 rated at 108dB/mw). I haven't seen this commented too much in this thread, but this has been a serious issue for me. Even more problematic was the "bug" with the tidal app, which would reset the volume at 100% everytime I would manually stop the music and restart or unplug/replug the DFB... At 100% volume setting playback, I can safely say that I would have gone completely deaf and killed both drivers. This made it obviously very difficult to relax and enjoy music on the laptop for me. I am surprised nobody reported a similar behaviour with their DFB.
  
 However, I also decided to purchase a dragontail to try the DFB as a portable dac/amp for my LG G3, based on the many positive feedback posted here. Again, using the tidal app, nothing fancy, just looking for convenience. I had no previous experience in "portable" set ups. And I have to admit I was not prepared for this...I am actually blown away at the quality of the playback with this combination. I need to do some serious a/b comparison with my main set up (Audio gd NFB28) because my brain is confused at the moment by the information it is receiving 
  
 Another bonus is that volume setting is very smooth from the phone, listening at aprox 50% of max volume. So unlike many comments here, the volume setting of the DFB works very well for me in this configuration. The DFB lights green (44khz) when playing back the tidal app with android native usb drivers I assume. I was under the impression that all playback was upsampled through Android, but this does not seem to be the case here, or maybe I am confused ?
  
 Anyway, this has been quite a dramatic discovery for me and I can now thoroughly enjoy my DFB. This convergence of good sound and portability/convenience does strike me as true innovation. Very happy with this purchase now.


----------



## headfry

....just shows you how important source can be!


----------



## dmance

I run a windows laptop through a USB cleanup chain to a DFR - using JRiver.  Tonight i installed the Windows 10 update (creators update) with the new USB Audio 2.0 internal drivers.  Well I noticed the DFR is still using the same WASAPI driver....but the sound i'm hearing is markedly better. Just better - more fine details, more bass.  I know this is real since i played the same songs the previous night.  So either Microsoft has tweaked the audio subsystem or AudioQuest included an update as well.  Either way, its worthwhile to install it !


----------



## eyepauls

Really really happy with my DFB 1.5!
 The most common pairing is with my iphone 7 & customart ei.3 but have also used it from my iphone 7 to my sony X55 speaker via aux.
  
 One thing I have noticed is sometimes if I am using the phone while music is playing, the music may start "lagging" - a quick removal of the DFB and reconnecting it fixes it but I found that the only "odd" aspect of using the device - overall, its fantastic.


----------



## fuzzybabybunny

west0ne said:


> @fuzzybabybunny
> -  if you connect the USB DAC after bootup has completed it should show as Card 1, if you attach the USB DAC before bootup it will show as Card 0.
> 
> If you use 'appfactory' with Tasker you can turn what you have done into an app. I did something similar but actually created a drop down list with each of my headphones listed and used that to set the volume on a headphone by headphone basis.
> ...




Yeah, the requirement to root really sucks. 

How does the hardware volume with USB Audio Player Pro work? Does UAPP's hardware volume settings only work for rooted phones as well, or have they somehow found a way to code their app to adjust the hardware volume without needing root?


----------



## fuzzybabybunny

Also, just to clarify, when you set the PCM volume level with alsamixer, you're actually controlling the volume level of the DragonFly right? As in, you're sending commands directly to the chip inside the DragonFly to increase its own volume output?


----------



## Devodonaldson

fuzzybabybunny said:


> Yeah, the requirement to root really sucks.
> 
> How does the hardware volume with USB Audio Player Pro work? Does UAPP's hardware volume settings only work for rooted phones as well, or have they somehow found a way to code their app to adjust the hardware volume without needing root?


no UAPP does not require root. The program has its own drivers that when enabled route all sound through the software, bypassing all android audio software which, when initiated, causes other players to cease to play audio. Example: you initiate UAPP, then go to YouTube, no sound will play. You will have to disconnect your dad for media volume to be reenabled.


----------



## Devodonaldson

fuzzybabybunny said:


> Also, just to clarify, when you set the PCM volume level with alsamixer, you're actually controlling the volume level of the DragonFly right? As in, you're sending commands directly to the chip inside the DragonFly to increase its own volume output?


Using always mixer and the specified commands you are directly controlling the volume of the dragonfly, which is why the volume commands recognized are 1-64 for the red, as there are 64 volume steps


----------



## west0ne

@fuzzybabybunny - the developers of UAPP have found a way to bypass Android audio and use their own USB drivers meaning there is no need for root. When you use ALSA you are interacting direct with the Dragonfly hardware volume; you have probably noticed that the normal Android volume continues to control the volume at a software level as well but the hardware setting changes the range of control.


----------



## Spkennedy3000

Hello!
 I have a DF Black 1.5 and using it with Tidal on an Iphone 7.
 I find that the lowest volume setting is too loud - I like listening while falling asleep (!) Is there any way of adjusting this, perhaps with an IOS app that integrates Tidal?
 Any ideas much appreciated.


----------



## Gonzbull

spkennedy3000 said:


> Hello!
> I have a DF Black 1.5 and using it with Tidal on an Iphone 7.
> I find that the lowest volume setting is too loud - I like listening while falling asleep (!) Is there any way of adjusting this, perhaps with an IOS app that integrates Tidal?
> Any ideas much appreciated.



I was able to get to 4 bars on an iPhone 5s with a pair of Sennheiser Momentum2. I haven't heard of any software that integrates Tidal on iOS. What headphones do you use?


----------



## Spkennedy3000

Hi Gonzbull, thank you for the reply. I am using Campfire Audio Lyra II...
 Great combination that sounds amazing I just want finer control over the volume at low levels...


----------



## Devodonaldson

spkennedy3000 said:


> Hi Gonzbull, thank you for the reply. I am using Campfire Audio Lyra II...
> Great combination that sounds amazing I just want finer control over the volume at low levels...


I understand your dilemma. IOS sets dac volume at 100% which is fine, however having only 16 volume steps to cover that full spectrum of dragonfly, combined with sensitive iems equals no room for fine tuning


----------



## grasshopperuk

Hi,
  
 My first post here, but I have lurked for a while.
  
 Hello all 
  
 Anyway, the reason for the post is just to add details of my correspondence with AQ regarding the long awaited software update needed to remedy the low volume issue on Android.
 Sadly I will be asking Amazon to take the dragonfly red dac, jitterbug & dragontail back, which is a shame, but with no robust ETA to resolution, I will buy another dac.
  
_Me:_
  
_Can you please tell me when the Dragonfly desktop software will be released?  I have seen comments on different forums indicating it was due in March.  I am hoping it will fix the low audio volume of my device whilst using it with Android 7 as at the moment it is too low to be usable?_
  
  
 AQ:
   
 Quote:


> The new firmware for Android is ready, but we’re still waiting for Microsoft to approve the update program for Windows. If they don’t approve/certify it, most computers won’t run it.
> 
> As for MQA, it’s all down to Tidal. They haven’t managed to get their version of streaming for renderers correct yet. MQA are working directly with Tidal to try and get this finished.
> 
> ...


 
  
_Me:_
  
_Thanks for the reply, is their an ETA for Microsoft to do what they need to do, ie does this tend to take days or weeks or longer?  I’ve seen posts on forums to suggest this software has been in the pipeline since last year, so I am wondering whether I need to sell this dac on & buy another or wait._
  
_This seems to be affecting a number of people & there is some noise on forums that I have come across, if you’re waiting on other people or companies can this not be escalated to provide a robust ETA for your customers?_
  
_http://www.head-fi.org/t/805832/new-dragonfly-black-and-red-discussion/2865#post_13321367_
_http://www.head-fi.org/t/805832/new-dragonfly-black-and-red-discussion/2970#post_13380835_
_http://www.head-fi.org/t/805832/new-dragonfly-black-and-red-discussion/2700#post_13259836_
  
_I purchased this solely to use on my HTC M9 & got about a weeks use out of it before the phone upgrading to Android 7 left the volume too low to use._
  
_The Tidal issue doesn’t affect me I don’t use it._
  
  
 AQ:
  


> Unfortunately we do not have any timeframe for this at the moment.  This is not something that can be escalated.  All third party software development has to go through the same certification process.
> 
> Respectfully,
> 
> Alex Mejia


----------



## fuzzybabybunny

west0ne said:


> @fuzzybabybunny
> - the developers of UAPP have found a way to bypass Android audio and use their own USB drivers meaning there is no need for root. When you use ALSA you are interacting direct with the Dragonfly hardware volume; you have probably noticed that the normal Android volume continues to control the volume at a software level as well but the hardware setting changes the range of control.




I wonder if it's possible to write a driver like UAPP has done, only make it accessible for use systemwide instead of just inside the app. 

Anything that attempts to control ALSA would need root access, huh?

So dumb.


----------



## Devodonaldson

grasshopperuk said:


> Hi,
> 
> My first post here, but I have lurked for a while.
> 
> ...


So I guess rooting isn't an option for you?


----------



## grasshopperuk

devodonaldson said:


> So I guess rooting isn't an option for you?


 
  
 No I am not rooting my phone.


----------



## Tennessee

On my phone with Android 7 I'm using Alsa and scripter to set 100% volume on DFR, then controlling it with music software. My problem is incoming notifications are darn loud, I would guess they are staying on those max volume somehow, instead of scaling with my volume setting. Any way to fix that? Till now I just go vibrations only when listening to music...

Gesendet von meinem SM-N910F mit Tapatalk


----------



## Devodonaldson

tennessee said:


> On my phone with Android 7 I'm using Alsa and scripter to set 100% volume on DFR, then controlling it with music software. My problem is incoming notifications are darn loud, I would guess they are staying on those max volume somehow, instead of scaling with my volume setting. Any way to fix that? Till now I just go vibrations only when listening to music...
> 
> Gesendet von meinem SM-N910F mit Tapatalk


check your volume settings. Android has call, notification, and media volumes that can all be set at different levels. Seeing that you are setting the DAC volume to 100%, all audio is going to be amplified, so the best thing to do would be to lower the notification volume to say, 1 and see what that sounds like over your headphones


----------



## WoodyLuvr

While in Hong Kong the past week I demoed Audioquest's DragonFlys with my H6s and I was actually extremely impressed... surprisingly so and bought one! Very powerful and quiet amps.
  
*To my ears* there wasn't a huge difference between the Red and Black using my H6s.  I ended up buying the Black with the Jitterbug and not the Red model as I preferred the Black DragonFly's slightly darker/softer (more mellow?) sound signature and lower volume control... it was much easier to fine tune and adjust to a lower volume than on the Red which was much, much louder due to its higher amp output.  So I saved myself some money choosing the black variant over the red one as I hadn't quite realized there was a dramatic price difference between the two!  
  
 I listened to another Audeze Deckard (my H6s sounded as great as they did on another one a few weeks back) and when comparing with the DragonFlys I honestly couldn't pinpoint any major improvement with the Deckard so I am definitely pleased with that revelation.  I guess my H6s just needed a little bit more juice to deepen (tighten up) the bass and expand/broaden the sound stage and timbre... anything beyond the DragonFly Black level is simply overkill.  All in all I now have a perfect home and portable headphone dac/amp solution!


----------



## Devodonaldson

been using the red since it released. After Canjam, went through some of my old equipment and threw this together. My new goto rig. Love using the Dfr as a preamp. The e11 is an oldy but goody and works perfectly as a portable with my V-moda CF2W. At home u unplug the fiio and connect this to my Cayin C5 and Akg Q701 modded cans. Looking to get a Schiit Valhalla tube amp for home later this year. With all I just wrote, *Dragonfly Red is the constant in all this, my go-to DAC,*away or home.


----------



## stuck limo

A guy I know was curious about buying my Geek Out 450 to use in place of or to complement his Dragonfly Black. He wanted to know the difference between them so I did a shootout for him so he could know the difference. 
  
 Geek Out wins at tonality, smoothness, body/weight, and overall enjoyability. It envelops you and is really engaging. 
  
 Dragonfly wins at soundstage and detail. Soundstage is further back and not as "in your face". However, it sounds slightly harsh/bright and digital and I got a headache listening to it tonight for an extended period. 
  
 What do I pick? The Geek Out 450. The Dragonfly Black is great for portable purposes but that's kind of about it (for me). Overall, bang for the buck: Dragonfly wins.


----------



## WoodyLuvr

stuck limo said:


> A guy I know was curious about buying my Geek Out 450 to use in place of or to complement his Dragonfly Black. He wanted to know the difference between them so I did a shootout for him so he could know the difference.
> 
> Geek Out wins at tonality, smoothness, and overall enjoyability. It envelops you and is really engaging.
> 
> ...


 
 Definitely concur on the soundstage and imaging... the DragonFlys have excellent timbre.  Which headphones were you using for the shootout?  Thankfully I am not experiencing any fatigue with my Black + H6s as I am usually sensitive and prone to fatigue.


----------



## Topspin70

Geekout runs very hot. Not so for black. It's A lot less taxing on your comp or device. Thought that's worth mentioning.


----------



## stuck limo

woodyluvr said:


> Definitely concur on the soundstage and imaging... the DragonFlys have excellent timbre.  Which headphones were you using for the shootout?  Thankfully I am not experiencing any fatigue with my Black + H6s as I am usually sensitive and prone to fatigue.


 
  
 I was using ATH-m40x for the comparisons. This was the first time I had ever done an extended listening session with my Dragonfly. I usually just use it for tooling around the store or if I'm somewhere for a bit and need something to listen to from the phone (using V-Moda XS/M-100). I use the Geek Out stuff for everything else (stereo, headphones at the desk, etc.). 
  
 Also, I thought the Geek Out had more body/weight to the music than the Dragonfly. The Dragonfly was pretty thin sounding in comparison. 
  
  


topspin70 said:


> Geekout runs very hot. Not so for black. It's A lot less taxing on your comp or device. Thought that's worth mentioning.


 
  
 Yeah, the design of the Dragonfly definitely wins.


----------



## Otto Motor

Question: I have add my dragonfly for 11 months now and noticed that there is some slack between the usb connector and the housing. Here a video:
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcQ-ljef6yg&feature=youtu.be
  
 I wonder whether this is normal.


----------



## wildpanda86

My Dragonfly Red feels a little loose like how you describe however not as bad. You can't hear it rattle if you shake it. Doesn't affect performance. It's been like this since the day I got it.

My Dragonfly Black is completely solid and doesnt move or rattle.

It's probably the manufacturing tolerances/ poor QC however it's not gonna affect performance.


----------



## big45-70

will the dragonfly black power a pair of hifiman he400i's?


----------



## Otto Motor

Thanks,
 I use it on different devices therefore it has seen a lot of (un)plugging over the year. Don't know how it was when it was new.


----------



## Otto Motor

Yes! Powers my Beyerdynamic Custom Pro, AKG K550, Teufel Massive, Sennheiser HD598 etc. No problems with any headphones so far.


----------



## WoodyLuvr

Been playing around with the "Bass Boost" Enhancement in WIN10 with interesting results... seems to work well with my DragonFly Black + H6 pairing.  Appears to work better than the EQ on Foobar2k.


----------



## koover

Got another issue.
Have the DFR and not sure why it's not working on my IPhone 6S all of a sudden today. It works on my PC fine and I tested it. Both sets of cans are fine too.
On the phone when everything is connected along with the cans, the audio only comes through the phone speaker. 
I believe it could only be 2 issues. I did something in the phone settings in set up or the lightning camera kit adapter went bad all of a sudden. 
I was messing around in the settings on my phone and might have done something I'm unaware of. I went through everything but could be missing something.
Any ideas?


----------



## Slaphead

koover said:


> Got another issue.
> Have the DFR and not sure why it's not working on my IPhone 6S all of a sudden today. It works on my PC fine and I tested it. Both sets of cans are fine too.
> On the phone when everything is connected along with the cans, the audio only comes through the phone speaker.
> I believe it could only be 2 issues. I did something in the phone settings in set up or the lightning camera kit adapter went bad all of a sudden.
> ...




In these situations it's often the CCK that's packed up. Do you have another device, such as a camera with a USB port, that you can attach to the CCK to see if it really is the CCK at fault.

I doubt it's anything to do with the settings on the iPhone - I don't even think you can do anything in the settings that will alter the behaviour of USB audio devices.

Another thing to bear in mind is that since iOS 10.3 a lot of people have been experiencing problems with USB audio devices in general.


----------



## G_T_J

Guys, do you think DFR will make a better combo with the Etymotic ER4P(S) compared to DFB? From what I read so far in this topic, this is what I understand.


----------



## koover

slaphead said:


> In these situations it's often the CCK that's packed up. Do you have another device, such as a camera with a USB port, that you can attach to the CCK to see if it really is the CCK at fault.
> 
> I doubt it's anything to do with the settings on the iPhone - I don't even think you can do anything in the settings that will alter the behaviour of USB audio devices.
> 
> Another thing to bear in mind is that since iOS 10.3 a lot of people have been experiencing problems with USB audio devices in general.




Thanx for the reply. Unfortunately this happened the day before I updated to IOS 10.3. 
I was hoping when i installed the update this would fix it but it didn't. I don't have anything else to test the DFR on but again, it worked on my PC. Needless to say I'm not too happy as I've only had it a week. 
It's gotta be the LCK. 
Any other ideas?


----------



## Gonzbull

koover said:


> Thanx for the reply. Unfortunately this happened the day before I updated to IOS 10.3.
> I was hoping when i installed the update this would fix it but it didn't. I don't have anything else to test the DFR on but again, it worked on my PC. Needless to say I'm not too happy as I've only had it a week.
> It's gotta be the LCK.
> Any other ideas?



Try the quick menu. Does the Dragonfly show up there?


----------



## koover

gonzbull said:


> Try the quick menu. Does the Dragonfly show up there?




No it doesn't. Looks just like the screenshot you sent. So it's not detecting it. What next swammi?


----------



## koover

koover said:


> No it doesn't. Looks just like the screenshot you sent. So it's not detecting it. What next swammi?




I just realized it should look like this if the DFR isn't put in my phone? Or should it already show that this device has been detected in the past?


----------



## Gonzbull

It will show the Dragonfly only if it's plugged in if you hit the down arrow. It does not remember previously connected devices. I'd say your cck is the problem. 
Head to an Apple Store if you can and test it with one of theirs. 
Maybe connect a USB thumb drive to the cck and see if it recognises it.


----------



## Gonzbull

koover said:


> I just realized it should look like this if the DFR isn't put in my phone? Or should it already show that this device has been detected in the past?


Go into Settings>General>About. It should show ur CCk. If it's Model A441, it's not supported anymore.


----------



## koover

gonzbull said:


> Go into Settings>General>About. It should show ur CCk. If it's Model A441, it's not supported anymore.




It does detect it. It's model A1619.
I'm confused man.
Could my DFR be defected after it worked great for a week since I've had it?


----------



## koover

koover said:


> It does detect it. It's model A1619.
> I'm confused man.
> Could my DFR be defected after it worked great for a week since I've had it?




It just dawned on me. There was an update for the CCK and I installed it. I believe it hasn't worked since. Not sure how I can go back in an uninstall that update. I'm willing to bet that's the issue. Am I off base?


----------



## jegnyc

koover said:


> It just dawned on me. There was an update for the CCK and I installed it. I believe it hasn't worked since. Not sure how I can go back in an uninstall that update. I'm willing to bet that's the issue. Am I off base?




To clarify - the 1441 is a version of the old CCK. A1619 is a model of the newer USB-3 CCK. And you are correct - there was an update. Several people here have complained that it had an effect on the sound, but to my knowledge you are the first (unfortunately for you) to have it fail completely.

I would second the suggestion of bringing it in to the Apple Store.


----------



## koover

jegnyc said:


> To clarify - the 1441 is a version of the old CCK. A1619 is a model of the newer USB-3 CCK. And you are correct - there was an update. Several people here have complained that it had an effect on the sound, but to my knowledge you are the first (unfortunately for you) to have it fail completely.
> 
> I would second the suggestion of bringing it in to the Apple Store.




Thanx guys. An update that screws up your devices. Nice!
I guess I'll head to the Apple Store when I can. Thanks for the help to you both.


----------



## georgelai57

gonzbull said:


> Go into Settings>General>About. It should show ur CCk. If it's Model A441, it's not supported anymore.


 
 My USB2 CCK still works on my old iPhone 6 - model no. A1440 FW 1.0.0 and HW 1.0.0 so I don't think it is so clear cut what works and what does not. Sometimes with the USB2 CCK, I do get the occasional interference hence I also have a USB3 CCK that I have not updated.


----------



## Gonzbull

georgelai57 said:


> My USB2 CCK still works on my old iPhone 6 - model no. A1440 FW 1.0.0 and HW 1.0.0 so I don't think it is so clear cut what works and what does not. Sometimes with the USB2 CCK, I do get the occasional interference hence I also have a USB3 CCK that I have not updated.



A1440 which is the original CCK2 appears to work. A1441 which is CCK2 v2 doesn't. My v2 version actually works perfect for a couple of mins and then the "device unsupported" pops up and it stops working until I restart my phone.


----------



## georgelai57

gonzbull said:


> A1440 which is the original CCK2 appears to work. A1441 which is CCK2 v2 doesn't. My v2 version actually works perfect for a couple of mins and then the "device unsupported" pops up and it stops working until I restart my phone.



Wow that is really strange; that the older version works. Anyway hope you get it sorted out soon.


----------



## Gonzbull

georgelai57 said:


> Wow that is really strange; that the older version works. Anyway hope you get it sorted out soon.



Your avatar says it all! I've just been using the analog out on my phone since the problem. I've given up on the CCk. I'm going to get another cable that works and is much sturdier but also very expensive. Hence the delay. Thanks for the well wishes.


----------



## jegnyc

slaphead said:


> . . .





> Another thing to bear in mind is that since iOS 10.3 a lot of people have been experiencing problems with USB audio devices in general.


 
  
 I have an Oppo HA-2 as well. Lots of problem reports with 10.3.x. Fortunately I read a couple and didn't update.  And the Oppo was MFI certified.
  


gonzbull said:


> A1440 which is the original CCK2 appears to work. A1441 which is CCK2 v2 doesn't. My v2 version actually works perfect for a couple of mins and then the "device unsupported" pops up and it stops working until I restart my phone.


 
 I don't think Apple can leave things in this condition - with two apparently identical Apple made products behaving differently (and the newer one failing) and MFI certified products no longer working.
  
 But maybe I'm naive.


----------



## koover

jegnyc said:


> I have an Oppo HA-2 as well. Lots of problem reports with 10.3.x. Fortunately I read a couple and didn't update.  And the Oppo was MFI certified.
> 
> I don't think Apple can leave things in this condition - with two apparently identical Apple made products behaving differently (and the newer one failing) and MFI certified products no longer working.
> 
> But maybe I'm naive.





jegnyc said:


> I have an Oppo HA-2 as well. Lots of problem reports with 10.3.x. Fortunately I read a couple and didn't update.  And the Oppo was MFI certified.
> 
> I don't think Apple can leave things in this condition - with two apparently identical Apple made products behaving differently (and the newer one failing) and MFI certified products no longer working.
> 
> But maybe I'm naive.




No, you're not naive I'm the one who truly am. Another trait I have right now is im p!$$ed off.
Is there another adaptor other then the CCK that's compatible with the DFR?


----------



## Mboom

Do these work with google music through USB OTG ?


----------



## WoodyLuvr

mboom said:


> Do these work with google music through USB OTG ?


 
 Yes. You'll need to download UAAP and BubbleUPnP.
  
http://www.head-fi.org/t/805832/new-dragonfly-black-and-red-discussion/1440#post_12794725


spidernhan said:


> I stand corrected. I only had a few minutes to play with BubbleUPnP before I had to work yesterday. lombardox is right. You get full UAPP functionality while using BubbleUPnP. I just hadn't come to grips to properly using the new software yet.
> 
> The proper steps are:
> 
> ...


----------



## zidius

anyone know if it is ok to leave the dragonfly attached to the PC 24/7 ?


----------



## WoodyLuvr

zidius said:


> anyone know if it is ok to leave the dragonfly attached to the PC 24/7 ?


 
 I have for more than a week now and a few others have mentioned that they have for much longer and with no ill results.  Also, if I am not grossly mistaken AQ says it is fine to leave plugged in.


----------



## Slaphead

zidius said:


> anyone know if it is ok to leave the dragonfly attached to the PC 24/7 ?




I don't see a problem with that - it's certainly far less likely to fail than the hard disks I've got running on my server 24/7. There's also anecdotal evidence to suggest that the DFs perform at their best when warmed up, but then again I've never noticed my DFR even remotely getting warm when in use.


----------



## MisterMudd

devodonaldson said:


> been using the red since it released. After Canjam, went through some of my old equipment and threw this together. My new goto rig. Love using the Dfr as a preamp. The e11 is an oldy but goody and works perfectly as a portable with my V-moda CF2W. At home u unplug the fiio and connect this to my Cayin C5 and Akg Q701 modded cans. Looking to get a Schiit Valhalla tube amp for home later this year. With all I just wrote, *Dragonfly Red is the constant in all this, my go-to DAC,*away or home.


 
How do you keep it all together? Velcro?


----------



## Degru

That means your volume level is a lot lower than what you'd get on PC. The Dragonfly has a sharp increase in volume level at 100% because it switches to line level mode. Anything lower than that is designed for powering headphones.


----------



## Gonzbull

koover said:


> No, you're not naive I'm the one who truly am. Another trait I have right now is im p!$$ed off.
> Is there another adaptor other then the CCK that's compatible with the DFR?




http://www.lavricables.com/cables/reference-silver-lightning-to-audioquest-dragonfly-dac-interconnect-cable-by-lavricables/


----------



## jegnyc

gonzbull said:


> http://www.lavricables.com/cables/reference-silver-lightning-to-audioquest-dragonfly-dac-interconnect-cable-by-lavricables/


 
 Any confirmation that it plays well with iOS 10.3?


----------



## bmoregnr

As I got a new iPhone 7 recently I tried out my DFB 1.5 with the cck 3.0 on latest iOS 10.3.1 and it seemed to work fine.  Another nice feature is, unlike on the older cck and iPhone 5, it doesn't seem to power down causing a crunching sound when on pause for say 3-5 minutes.


----------



## Gonzbull

jegnyc said:


> Any confirmation that it plays well with iOS 10.3?



Sorry can't confirm as I haven't purchased the cable yet. Best to contact the manufacturer. They do say it works with all version of iOS.


----------



## PeteMtl

Nice but quite expensive...


----------



## koover

gonzbull said:


> http://www.lavricables.com/cables/reference-silver-lightning-to-audioquest-dragonfly-dac-interconnect-cable-by-lavricables/




Damn, $101 is almost as much as the DFR!
If this cable that good?


----------



## JEspina456

koover said:


> Damn, $101 is almost as much as the DFR!
> If this cable that good?





I just clicked on the link. It's out of stock! ☹️


----------



## zorilon

cluelessaudio said:


> Just got the DF Red. Can't notice a huge improvement in sound on my 2014 Macbook Pro, sounds ever so slightly clearer (i think, probably just imagining it). It does help the bass a tiny bit. Is it worth £170? Not a chance imo. I guess what I read about macs having decent dacs. Not sure whether to return it or swap for the DF Black.
> 
> update: the best way i can describe it, is that it changes the sound a bit, not doesn't necessarily improve it.



it makes the sound brighter and thinner then the mac, especially with headphones that have small impedance.


----------



## DancingBlue

jegnyc said:


> Any confirmation that it plays well with iOS 10.3?


 
  
 In reference to the Lavricable CCK replacement cable, mine arrived this morning, and after extensive testing I have found that sadly it does not.
  
 iPhone 6s+, iOS 10.3.1, sim-free model (on T-Mobile), 128GB, non-jailbroken. Tested locally-stored music via Cesium and streaming Tidal HiFi.
  
 After 20-30 seconds of playing,  the "device not supported" message pops up and music routes to the speaker. Rebooting the phone resets things, but the error happens again.
  
 Now, the lightning connector on the Lavricable is ever so shorter than the stock Apple one; just by the tiniest amount, but enough that it doesn't "click" when inserted, although the connection IS secure. So I thought maybe the problem was a poor connection, especially since I did my tests holding the phone and playing with the cable to test flexibility.
  
 So, another reboot, and this time I plugged everything in beforehand, inserted the IEMs, and carefully started playing music without jiggling the cables. Same problem, 30-or-so seconds in and the "unsupported device" message popped up.
  
 My final (and extremely tedious) series of tests involved the sequence in which I plugged things in. Cable to phone then DFR to cable, DFR to cable then cable to phone, etc. No difference any which way, always got the "device not supported" message after 20-30 seconds of play. These test were also performed with the whole setup on my desk and with no cable jiggle.
  
 The only thing I haven't tested is using an Alesis USB midi keyboard and Blue Yeti USB microphone with the cable. Both devices work fine with the CCK, so I might get lucky and be able to dedicate the Lavricable to one of those. Edit: no go. Same exact problem with these devices, both on the iPhone and on an iPad Mini 4 running 10.3.1.
  
 I will say though that the cable is attractive, well-constructed, and shipped VERY quickly (same day I ordered or the very next morning, can't remember which, but it was super-fast).
  
  


jespina456 said:


> I just clicked on the link. It's out of stock! ☹️


 
  
 I think you dodged a bullet there!


----------



## XLR8

I have original dragonfly v1 and dragonfly v1.2

As I favor the SQ of dragonfly v1 overwhelmingly, is the red closer to v1.2 ( I hate) or original v1?

Tia to all answers.


----------



## Slaphead

With regards to Lightning to USB adapters, I think those of you buying expensive 3rd party variants are at a real risk of throwing your money down the drain.

The Lightning port is proprietary, and Apple controls it. As we've seen, a simple iOS update is enough to hobble the functionality of these cables.

As much as I would like to see some competition in the market, the reality is that if you want a chance of a Lightning to USB cable to actually function correctly, then Apple's own CCK is the only way to go, and then only the CCK USB 3 (the larger one with the additional Lightning port) as people have also had problems with the smaller USB 2 cable on iOS 10.3+

As always you pay your money and take your choice, but one additional advantage with the original Apple adapters is that there is a no quibble guarantied money back return window should the cable fail to function to your requirements.


----------



## WoodyLuvr

Do the AudioQuest DragonFlys have a time-out/safety feature?  Just noticing that sometimes I need to unplug and plug in my DragonFly to get sound again in Windows10.


----------



## Sir Alamon

woodyluvr said:


> Do the AudioQuest DragonFlys have a time-out/safety feature?  Just noticing that sometimes I need to unplug and plug in my DragonFly to get sound again in Windows10.


 
  
  
 hmhmh not happening for me with W10


----------



## Sir Alamon

so the CCK 3.0 DOES NOT WORK with DFR after update?


----------



## tieuly1

it works well with CCK3 - if you are not sure just coming straight to Apple store and check


----------



## Wiencon

tieuly1 said:


> it works well with CCK3 - if you are not sure just coming straight to Apple store and check


 
 Just wanted to let you know that not everyone lives in country with Apple Stores or have one nearby


----------



## zidius

wiencon said:


> Just wanted to let you know that not everyone lives in country with Apple Stores or have one nearby


 
 errr..... apple sells em online with pretty fast free shippin too(B&H as well).not all apple store carry them, i was surprised when i found out that apple store in union square SF doesn't have them ended up ordering online


----------



## tieuly1

wiencon said:


> Just wanted to let you know that not everyone lives in country with Apple Stores or have one nearby


 
 totally understand that but everyone has different issues as some other CCK 3 still worked well after undated ios


----------



## Tribble

woodyluvr said:


> Do the AudioQuest DragonFlys have a time-out/safety feature?  Just noticing that sometimes I need to unplug and plug in my DragonFly to get sound again in Windows10.


 
  
 Not had that on Windows 7, and I have my Dragonfly plugged in all the time. The PC is my main source and the DF gets used several hours every evening.
  
 One thing that occurs to me to check is the power settings. I;m not familiar with Windows 10 but maybe it is set to power down peripheral ports not in use, or something. There is a USB suspend in Windows 7 power settings.


----------



## WoodyLuvr

tribble said:


> Not had that on Windows 7, and I have my Dragonfly plugged in all the time. The PC is my main source and the DF gets used several hours every evening.
> 
> One thing that occurs to me to check is the power settings. I;m not familiar with Windows 10 but maybe it is set to power down peripheral ports not in use, or something. There is a USB suspend in Windows 7 power settings.


 
 Yep I have USB suspend disabled.  When it happens the DragonFly still has power (green light is on) just no sound.  I tested the driver last time but all seems fine but I can not test sound under device properties though which is strange. Seems to happen when either Chrome (YouTube) and/or Foobar2k is open; when the sound goes off all other sound is effected as well.... no system sound.  I simply unplug and plug in the DragonFly and it works again.  Must be some setting I have wrong somewhere in Windows 10.
  

  
 I only have one (1) playback device activated and set as default.  Motherboard audio has been turned off in the BIOS. Both Sleep and Hibernation are disabled as well.  All enhancements are disabled (off).


----------



## jegnyc

tieuly1 said:


> totally understand that but everyone has different issues as some other CCK 3 still worked well after undated ios


 
 Curious as to whether the people who are having problems with the 10.3.x/USB-3 CCK combination have updated the firmware on their CCKs.  Maybe that is necessary to get them to play well.  And yes, I know several people have complained about a deterioration in sound quality after the update, so proceed at your own risk.


----------



## Citsur86

Anyone have a recent update on the MQA update for the DFR / DFB to work with Tidal? It was originally supposed to be early January....


----------



## KrusherSHPX

cluelessaudio said:


> Just got the DF Red. Can't notice a huge improvement in sound on my 2014 Macbook Pro, sounds ever so slightly clearer (i think, probably just imagining it). It does help the bass a tiny bit. Is it worth £170? Not a chance imo. I guess what I read about macs having decent dacs. Not sure whether to return it or swap for the DF Black.
> 
> update: the best way i can describe it, is that it changes the sound a bit, not doesn't necessarily improve it.


 
 I must say... I have the DFR for about 2 weeks now and this is *EXACTLY* how I would describe it. Maybe the benefits are more noticable with a phone, but with a Macbook Pro (mine is mid-2012) I'm not hearing any improvements, just a little change in the sound. The bass is a bit cleaner and I hear more echo with the voices but that's it, it's hardly noticable.
 I picked the DFR for my Beyerdynamic DT 1990 PRO, since they are 250 ohms, but to my surprise, they are quite easy to drive and the volume that I get straight from my mac is enough. Of course with the dfr I can get more volume and it's more enjoyable but sound quality wise.. I can't really distinguish the dfr from my mac. Veeeeeeeery subtle and minor changes in the sound like I said, and for 199$, I was hoping for a dramatic improvement.
  
 I'm quite disappointed, I ordered another dfr and will be sending mine back, juste to be sure it wasn't defective or anything. I'll post an update.
 But if it sounds the same, I'm thinking to either get another usb DAC/amp, the LH LABS GO2A or a desktop dac, the Sony UDA-1. Did anyone had the chance to test either of these, and maybe compared it with the dfr ?


----------



## SpiderNhan

krushershpx said:


> I must say... I have the DFR for about 2 weeks now and this is *EXACTLY* how I would describe it. Maybe the benefits are more noticable with a phone, but with a Macbook Pro (mine is mid-2012) I'm not hearing any improvements, just a little change in the sound. The bass is a bit cleaner and I hear more echo with the voices but that's it, it's hardly noticable.
> I picked the DFR for my Beyerdynamic DT 1990 PRO, since they are 250 ohms, but to my surprise, they are quite easy to drive and the volume that I get straight from my mac is enough. Of course with the dfr I can get more volume and it's more enjoyable but sound quality wise.. I can't really distinguish the dfr from my mac. Veeeeeeeery subtle and minor changes in the sound like I said, and for 199$, I was hoping for a dramatic improvement.
> 
> I'm quite disappointed, I ordered another dfr and will be sending mine back, juste to be sure it wasn't defective or anything. I'll post an update.
> ...



I suggest letting the DFR burn in. Not the typical burn in that people are argue about but brain burn in. Use the DFR exclusively for as long as the return window allows and once you've gotten used to it go back to the Mac and see if you miss anything.

I find that night and day differences are more prevalent with swapping headphones than swapping amps and DACs. However, once you're​ used to the extra details you definitely notice when they're not there.


----------



## KrusherSHPX

spidernhan said:


> I suggest letting the DFR burn in. Not the typical burn in that people are argue about but brain burn in. Use the DFR exclusively for as long as the return window allows and once you've gotten used to it go back to the Mac and see if you miss anything.
> 
> I find that night and day differences are more prevalent with swapping headphones than swapping amps and DACs. However, once you're​ used to the extra details you definitely notice when they're not there.


 
 Once the new DFR will come, I'll have 60 days to play with it and will do exactly that, thx !


----------



## waflet

krushershpx said:


> I must say... I have the DFR for about 2 weeks now and this is *EXACTLY* how I would describe it. Maybe the benefits are more noticable with a phone, but with a Macbook Pro (mine is mid-2012) I'm not hearing any improvements, just a little change in the sound. The bass is a bit cleaner and I hear more echo with the voices but that's it, it's hardly noticable.
> I picked the DFR for my Beyerdynamic DT 1990 PRO, since they are 250 ohms, but to my surprise, they are quite easy to drive and the volume that I get straight from my mac is enough. Of course with the dfr I can get more volume and it's more enjoyable but sound quality wise.. I can't really distinguish the dfr from my mac. Veeeeeeeery subtle and minor changes in the sound like I said, and for 199$, I was hoping for a dramatic improvement.
> 
> I'm quite disappointed, I ordered another dfr and will be sending mine back, juste to be sure it wasn't defective or anything. I'll post an update.
> But if it sounds the same, I'm thinking to either get another usb DAC/amp, the LH LABS GO2A or a desktop dac, the Sony UDA-1. Did anyone had the chance to test either of these, and maybe compared it with the dfr ?


 
 Hideeho
 I use my DFB w/ my iphone when portable in the car & walking around (iPhone to head unit & iPhone to iems) & on my PC occasionally (pc to HE-400i), but I have used it on my son’s Macbook pro. My son & I had the same experience as you with it. It seems the DAC in the Macbook is fairly decent (as opposed to the one in the iPhone…). I am surprised you are getting enough volume out of the Macbook though. I found it did not get loud enough for my HE-400i’s. Don’t get me wrong, it got loud, just not loud enough & nowhere near to loud (100% volume & I still wanted more…). That is pure personal opinion though, my son found it loud enough.


----------



## coolcrew23

http://www.lazada.com.ph/remix-mini-android-pc-3177485.html

Hi guys, has anyone tried to use this as a source? An android box with usb. Maybe plug the dfr and stream tidal.


----------



## Devodonaldson

citsur86 said:


> Anyone have a recent update on the MQA update for the DFR / DFB to work with Tidal? It was originally supposed to be early January....


The issue is not the dragonfly. the software to render MQA is operational. There have been other UNFORSEEN issues between different vendors that are still trying to be worked out. The COs are cooperating and trying to get the issues handled. (purposely a little vague as to not throw any CO under the bus.) The issue is being worked on by all parties.


----------



## Citsur86

devodonaldson said:


> The issue is not the dragonfly. the software to render MQA is operational. There have been other UNFORSEEN issues between different vendors that are still trying to be worked out. The COs are cooperating and trying to get the issues handled. (purposely a little vague as to not throw any CO under the bus.) The issue is being worked on by all parties.


 
 Thanks - where did you get the information if I may ask?


----------



## grasshopperuk

citsur86 said:


> Thanks - where did you get the information if I may ask?


 
  
 This what AQ told me a week or so ago:
  


> The new firmware for Android is ready, but we’re still waiting for Microsoft to approve the update program for Windows. If they don’t approve/certify it, most computers won’t run it.
> 
> As for MQA, it’s all down to Tidal. They haven’t managed to get their version of streaming for renderers correct yet. MQA are working directly with Tidal to try and get this finished.
> 
> ...


----------



## NOSAudiophile

I recently got this second hand. Plugged it into my desktop PC. It actually sounded WORSE than my stock sound card. And I can't remember what soundcard I used, but it was not an expensive one. Is there anything I can do or need to do to make it work better?
  
 I tried updating driver. says it's using the latest driver.


----------



## tieuly1

It actually bases on the headphone you are using atm. As my camfire Andromeda has huge improve for bass part and the SS has huge with more than holography when I connect to laptop ( cannot get same response with my Iphone). Hope the Sony Wm1a could bring the same effect like DFR + laptop


----------



## koover

jegnyc said:


> Curious as to whether the people who are having problems with the 10.3.x/USB-3 CCK combination have updated the firmware on their CCKs.  Maybe that is necessary to get them to play well.  And yes, I know several people have complained about a deterioration in sound quality after the update, so proceed at your own risk.




When I did the update on the CCK lightning, that's when my DFR crashed. Red light comes on but no audio in my cans. Audio only from my IPhone 6S. 
Works on my PC just fine though. im really ticked off as I only had it for less then a week, then.....crash!! Not to thrilled about sitting in the Apple Store (need to trouble shoot with them) for probably 3 hours before a rep even gets to me because that place is a zoo.


----------



## CyberGhost

I just received Dragonfly Black and compared it to my Echo Indigo DJx.

Echo absolutely murdered it. There was comparison on just how much better Echo is.

I feel like I fell for a snake oil trick. Dragonfly is VERY overrated.


----------



## VRacer-111

cyberghost said:


> I just received Dragonfly Black and compared it to my Echo Indigo DJx.
> 
> Echo absolutely murdered it. There was comparison on just how much better Echo is.
> 
> I feel like I fell for a snake oil trick. Dragonfly is VERY overrated.




Well the Echo only works on older laptops with an express port. Newer laptops don't really have express ports anymore and also if you want better audio out of your phone or tablet, Echo can't do anything about that. And the Dragonfly you should be comparing to is the Red, not Black. Dragonfly Red is unbeatable at what it does (which is high quality portable audio in the smallest form factor possible for Mac, Windows, iOS, and Android devices) and if you use the line out function and connect it to a good stereo amp and tower speakers it will show you what its DAC is ultimately capable of...


----------



## Gonzbull

cyberghost said:


> I just received Dragonfly Black and compared it to my Echo Indigo DJx.
> 
> Echo absolutely murdered it. There was comparison on just how much better Echo is.
> 
> I feel like I fell for a snake oil trick. Dragonfly is VERY overrated.




Not a very good comparison. AsVRacer mentioned the Echo is obsolete and a completely different form factor.


----------



## eyepauls

I have to echo (no pun intended) the comments of Vracer & Gonzbull regarding this "comparison"
  
  
 Quote:


cyberghost said:


> I just received Dragonfly Black and compared it to my Echo Indigo DJx.
> 
> Echo absolutely murdered it. There was comparison on just how much better Echo is.
> 
> I feel like I fell for a snake oil trick. Dragonfly is VERY overrated.


----------



## endgame

vracer-111 said:


> Well the Echo only works on older laptops with an express port. Newer laptops don't really have express ports anymore and also if you want better audio out of your phone or tablet, Echo can't do anything about that. And the Dragonfly you should be comparing to is the Red, not Black. Dragonfly Red is unbeatable at what it does (which is high quality portable audio in the smallest form factor possible for Mac, Windows, iOS, and Android devices) and if you use the line out function and connect it to a good stereo amp and tower speakers it will show you what its DAC is ultimately capable of...




This is perfectly said.


----------



## TwiceTzuyu

Good news, seems like the DFR volume problem is fixed with Android Nougat 7.0! I'm using the Dragonfly Red+SE846 with my Samsung Galaxy S8+ set at 50% volume. I'm using Samsung's music player which seems to only output at 48kHz (Blue light on the DFR) compared to my S6 Edge that outputs at 96kHz (Magenta light).


----------



## zolom

Do you have the possibility to check please on how is the s8 and DFR volume with Spotify or Tidal?


----------



## Degru

twicetzuyu said:


> Good news, seems like the DFR volume problem is fixed with Android Nougat 7.0! I'm using the Dragonfly Red+SE846 with my Samsung Galaxy S8+ set at 50% volume. I'm using Samsung's music player which seems to only output at 48kHz (Blue light on the DFR) compared to my S6 Edge that outputs at 96kHz (Magenta light).




Unfortunately that seems to be limited to your phone, because both my friends Moto G4 running stock Nougat and my G4 Play and Nexus 5 running LineageOS have low volume on the Red. 

However, I can fix it by installing AlsaMixer and making a Tasker shortcut to raise hardware gain to 100%. Requires root but works.


----------



## WoodyLuvr

Well my DragonFly is still turning off about once a day still... in the middle of listening to a track on Foobar2K.  Something in Win10 is resetting the DragonFly.  When the sound turns off the DragonFly is still Green but when I unplug and plug it back in it turns Magenta.  When I check under Advanced Options under the Device the default format has reset to 24 bit, 96,000 hz from 44,000 hz???  Very strange.  I wonder if this is a conflict between Win10 and Foobar2k???


----------



## TwiceTzuyu

zolom said:


> Do you have the possibility to check please on how is the s8 and DFR volume with Spotify or Tidal?


 
  
 Same thing with Spotify Premium (Extreme Quality) 50% volume and 48kHz output. I don't have Tidal, sorry. However, I don't think the DFR is necessary on the Galaxy S8 since the Snapdragon 835 chip comes with a very good amp/dac. The Exynos 8895 variant has the Cirrus Logic SC43130 according to this posting http://www.head-fi.org/t/842681/samsung-s8-s8-sound-quality/60


> Qualcomm Aqstic™ WCD9341 audio codec combined with Snapdragon 835 supports an audiophile grade DAC with 32-bit/384kHz support with an SNR at 115dB and ultra-low -105dB THD+N and native DSD hi-fi audio playback. Additionally, the Snapdragon 835 supports Qualcomm® aptX™ and aptX HD Bluetooth audio with 2x improved power for wireless connectivity;


 
  


degru said:


> Unfortunately that seems to be limited to your phone, because both my friends Moto G4 running stock Nougat and my G4 Play and Nexus 5 running LineageOS have low volume on the Red.
> 
> However, I can fix it by installing AlsaMixer and making a Tasker shortcut to raise hardware gain to 100%. Requires root but works.


 
  
 Hm... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I hope this is something that can be fixed via a Audioquest firmware update.


----------



## Tennessee

twicetzuyu said:


> Good news, seems like the DFR volume problem is fixed with Android Nougat 7.0! I'm using the Dragonfly Red+SE846 with my Samsung Galaxy S8+ set at 50% volume. I'm using Samsung's music player which seems to only output at 48kHz (Blue light on the DFR) compared to my S6 Edge that outputs at 96kHz (Magenta light).


 

 No it's not. Android 7.1.2 AOSP - volume after connecting is still max at 33%.


----------



## Tribble

woodyluvr said:


> Yep I have USB suspend disabled.  When it happens the DragonFly still has power (green light is on) just no sound.  I


 
  
 I had completely forgotten that I had a similar-ish issue with my DFR before. I don't think it will help you, but...
  
 My DFR would frequently (not every time) go silent on a manual track change in foobar. I thought at first it was caused by a change of bit-depth but then noticed it could do it even changing to exactly the same bit-depth and sample rate. The DFR was still on, light on whatever colour it was on the previous track, and foobar still thought it was playing (visualisation was still going) but no sound out of the DFR. For me, restarting the new track usually got the sound back and obviously something was going on as the DFR's light would flicker and then go steady again when I did that.
  
 However, the old laptop I was using had another issue and I replaced it with an HP 800 G2 MiniDesktop. I've not had a single problem since then, about two months now.
  
 So, maybe it was just a Windows issue that would have been solved with a reinstall or USB driver reinstall, or maybe the laptop's USB ports had a problem.
  
 The only things I can think of to try, if I had your issue (and apologies if you've already thought all of these) are: try a different USB port; make sure the USB hub isn't shared (although that's never been a problem for me, and mine is - the MiniDesktop only has one root hub); try different output modules in foobar, like WASAPI, ASIO - make sure they are all at default settings; allow applications to use exclusive mode.
  
 The fact that yours can do it in the middle of a track makes me wonder if Windows is trying to play a sound and causing an effect similar to mine. If not, then it sounds more serious/difficult than my issue.
  
 Finally, if it were me, I would be tempted to order another DFR from somewhere I could return it, and try a new one, just in case. Good luck


----------



## intmdtrdal

How are you able to get your dragonfly to work on the s8? I have the android dragontail plugged into the usb c to micro usb adapter that came with the phone and the dragonfly does not work!


----------



## WoodyLuvr

tribble said:


> I had completely forgotten that I had a similar-ish issue with my DFR before. I don't think it will help you, but...
> 
> My DFR would frequently (not every time) go silent on a manual track change in foobar. I thought at first it was caused by a change of bit-depth but then noticed it could do it even changing to exactly the same bit-depth and sample rate. The DFR was still on, light on whatever colour it was on the previous track, and foobar still thought it was playing (visualisation was still going) but no sound out of the DFR. For me, restarting the new track usually got the sound back and obviously something was going on as the DFR's light would flicker and then go steady again when I did that.
> 
> ...


 
 Appreciate the feedback... yes, I am thinking it is a conflcit between Windows10 and foobar2k as my DragonFLy works fine on smartphones and other PCs.  I'll change the port used and alsotry reinstalling foobar2k and the DragonFly drivers.  Thank you.  CHeers.


----------



## abinhk

intmdtrdal said:


> How are you able to get your dragonfly to work on the s8? I have the android dragontail plugged into the usb c to micro usb adapter that came with the phone and the dragonfly does not work!


 
 I don't have an S8 but in the past USB devices have never worked for me through USB-C - Micro USB adapters. I believe these adapters work for charging only.


----------



## drykoke

DFR works perfectly with USB-C port on Xiaomi 4S running Android 6.0


----------



## koover

slaphead said:


> In these situations it's often the CCK that's packed up. Do you have another device, such as a camera with a USB port, that you can attach to the CCK to see if it really is the CCK at fault.
> 
> I doubt it's anything to do with the settings on the iPhone - I don't even think you can do anything in the settings that will alter the behaviour of USB audio devices.
> 
> Another thing to bear in mind is that since iOS 10.3 a lot of people have been experiencing problems with USB audio devices in general.


 
 As an update, it was the CCK. For anyone using the Lightning to USB 3 camera adapter, I'd suggest not updating the adaptor when prompted as I did. It seems the update on my IPhone 6S killed the DFR. A new CCK (without updating it) did the trick and it works like a charm. Enjoyment once again. Thank you to everyone who had input in my issue as I probably wouldn't have figured this out without everyone's insight and assistance.
 Regards


----------



## cyclops214

I guess I'm the only one with the DFR CCK 3.0 With the new firmware update And the iPhone 7+ And everything is working fine for me.


----------



## zolom

Are you reffering to the new DFR firmware update?
  
 Thanks


----------



## Slaphead

zolom said:


> Are you reffering to the new DFR firmware update?
> 
> Thabnks




No - the firmware update is for the CCK itself, which it appears was delivered with iOS 10.3.

Still not much news on the new Dragonfly vapourware firmware


----------



## zolom

Thanks (I thought so)
  
 Just a wishful thinking


----------



## WoodyLuvr

WoodyLuvr said:


> Well my DragonFly is still turning off about once a day still... in the middle of listening to a track on Foobar2K.  Something in Win10 is resetting the DragonFly.  When the sound turns off the DragonFly is still Green but when I unplug and plug it back in it turns Magenta.  When I check under Advanced Options under the Device the default format has reset to 24 bit, 96,000 hz from 44,000 hz???  Very strange.  I wonder if this is a conflict between Win10 and Foobar2k???


Narrowing down this nearly daily loss of sound occurrence... seems to only happen in Foobar2k or in YouTube (via Chrome) when both are open.  Foobar2K used alone it has never happened.


----------



## suzuki

Have the red and jitterbug hooked up to my laptop win 7 itunes aac 256 driving PK1's  and all I can say is wow.

The music is so alive and has a verve I didn't think possible.

The way voices are produced is awesome and you can hear how singers use their vocals and mouths to enunciate words. Great stuff! The rest of the audio spectrum was also a surprise. Can't stop playing the air guitar and sing along.

No such thing as it's only good for classical or jazz or rock as it plays all genres equally well.

Musial notes are reproduced richly that gives instruments an intensity that is addictive. Detail and attack is another area that make you just want to keep listening.

Thank you Audioquest!

If I may ask does any one know how I could connect my older IPod Nano's 4g and 6g to the Red via the line out dock?

Thanks.


----------



## wwyjoe

TwiceTzuyu said:


> Good news, seems like the DFR volume problem is fixed with Android Nougat 7.0! I'm using the Dragonfly Red+SE846 with my Samsung Galaxy S8+ set at 50% volume. I'm using Samsung's music player which seems to only output at 48kHz (Blue light on the DFR) compared to my S6 Edge that outputs at 96kHz (Magenta light).



Is your S8+ the Snapdragon 835 or Exynos model? Is there noticeableable sound improvement with the DFR?


----------



## Roen

suzuki said:


> Have the red and jitterbug hooked up to my laptop win 7 itunes aac 256 driving PK1's  and all I can say is wow.
> 
> The music is so alive and has a verve I didn't think possible.
> 
> ...



Are they 30-pin connector? There's a 30-pin CCK.


----------



## suzuki

Pretty sure it's a 30 pin.

Thank you, I'll check em out.


----------



## suzuki

Roen said:


> Are they 30-pin connector? There's a 30-pin CCK.



Hard to find one? Apparently I need one with iOS 7 for the 4th & 6th gen Nano?


----------



## Roen

suzuki said:


> Hard to find one? Apparently I need one with iOS 7 for the 4th & 6th gen Nano?


You can find them pretty easily on ebay, used.


----------



## whaiyun

I sold off my Fulla 2 yesterday and bought a DFR, can't wait to try it out. I hope it's better than the Fulla 2.


----------



## VintageFlanker

Still waiting for this desktop update client..."two weeks or so?" seriously, Audioquest: What?!?


----------



## suzuki

Roen said:


> You can find them pretty easily on ebay, used.



Not for the Nano.


----------



## Devodonaldson

VintageFlanker said:


> Still waiting for this desktop update client..."two weeks or so?" seriously, Audioquest: What?!?


It's been discussed, check the thread. Audioquest isn't the issue.


----------



## WoodyLuvr

WoodyLuvr said:


> Narrowing down this nearly daily loss of sound occurrence... seems to only happen in Foobar2k or in YouTube (via Chrome) when both are open.  Foobar2K used alone it has never happened.



Definitely something to do with Chrome and YouTube... what should I look at to rectify this loss of sound problem? 

Again, complete system sound turns off; DragonFly light is still green; YouTube videos have no sound; if Foobar2K is open tracks are unplayable (clicking a track throws an error)... once I unplug and plug in the DragonFly all is corrected.


----------



## WoodyLuvr

Devodonaldson said:


> It's been discussed, check the thread. Audioquest isn't the issue.


To be clear there are three (3) separate issues at hand that are driving customers crazy:

Streaming - MQA Update (AQ awaiting updated version from Tidal) 
Android Firmware Update to include Android Volume Control Fix (AQ awaiting approval from Microsoft)
Desktop Manager App with expected (normal routine) firmware updates so as to stay abreast of all the ongoing os updates by Microsoft, Apple, Android, Google, etc.
AQ is still partly to blame because they planted seeds of hope:

AQ mentioned more than a year ago that a soon-to-arrive desktop manager app w/ an updated firmware/driver feature was forever coming but never materialized... really hard to believe (doubtful in fact), that there wasn't something AQ could/should have improved, fixed, adjusted, and/or added to the DragonFly's drivers over the past year besides the MQA and Android volume control fix...
AQ stated numerous times that they are really close to a volume fix and that a firmware update would be pushed out shortly regardless of the ongoing MQA issue...
AQ was far too optimistic; made too many promises; and continually gave customers timelines... timelines! How silly and definitely a rookie mistake as customers typically *hold* a company to their words and those timelines *become* deadlines so when the company goes silent; fails to meet a deadline; and/or continually gives a "next week" or "in a few more weeks" type excuse response it frustrates customers to no end... 
AQ employees on a few occasions have displayed exasperated/impatient attitudes with inquiring customers which is completely unacceptable as it is AQ's fault and it could have been completely avoided if they had simply never mentioned/promised a desktop manager app or a firmware update in the first place... or at least not until they were truly nearly ready to roll them out.
Timely and brief communications via their website, clearly acknowledging the addressment of problems/issues with careful avoidance of timelines, would have completely solved a lot of this PR heartache for AQ.

I wonder who is handing AQ's Public Relations, Customer Service, and Marketing side of the business... that/those individual(s) should have a lot of explaining and rectifying to do so as to keep their job(s)...


----------



## VintageFlanker

WoodyLuvr said:


> AQ is still partly to blame because they planted seeds of hope:
> 
> AQ mentioned more than a year ago that a soon-to-arrive desktop manager app w/ an updated firmware/driver feature was forever coming but never materialized... really hard to believe (doubtful in fact), that there wasn't something AQ could/should have improved, fixed, adjusted, and/or added to the DragonFly's drivers over the past year besides the MQA and Android volume control fix...
> AQ stated numerous times that they are really close to a volume fix and that a firmware update would be pushed out shortly regardless of the ongoing MQA issue...
> ...



+10000000000000000


----------



## west0ne

Devodonaldson said:


> It's been discussed, check the thread. Audioquest isn't the issue.



AQ could have submitted the desktop App for approval [their latest excuse] without having a new firmware ready to go; they announced the desktop App at the same time they announced the release of the new DFB/DFR. If they had submitted the App for approval at the outset they would be ready to go now. Sadly AQ don't come across as being competent is this matter.


----------



## VintageFlanker

We've to say: AQ is not a little/young company...at all. They sell high end cables all over the world for years, now. Everybody in audiophile world know this brand. Such a behaviour is not acceptable from a well established company like AQ.


----------



## andrewski

Been just over a year with the DFR. Single best audio equipment purchase I have ever made (and expect, ever will make). Totally acceptable to me ❤


----------



## WoodyLuvr

andrewski said:


> Been just over a year with the DFR. Single best audio equipment purchase I have ever made (and expect, ever will make). Totally acceptable to me ❤


Agreed; I love my Black... however, product quality/value is a separate issue from customer service, broken promises, and unfulfilled expectations .  A many of company with awesome top notch products have folded and disappeared due to horrible customer service and/or a terrible handling of an issue.  I certainly see why people are pissed off at the moment... for the past year I mean


----------



## andrewski

Papa Smurf seems ready to snap. If patience isn't an option, then I suggest selling the DF until an update with features you desire is available. Better than endless belly-aching. Adjust your expectations accordingly


----------



## zolom (May 1, 2017)

As an owner of DFR (and previously the DFB and number of portable DACs) I really do enjoy its sound quality and portability, a lot.
This firmware delay, although anticipated to improve my android volume issue, does not affect much the joy of using the DFR as it is now.


----------



## WoodyLuvr

andrewski said:


> Papa Smurf seems ready to snap. If patience isn't an option, then I suggest selling the DF until an update with features you desire is available. Better than endless belly-aching. Adjust your expectations accordingly


Maybe you need to adjust your perspective slightly and understand where others are coming from before making grossly flippant remarks... no?  Many users are severely effected by the issues at hand and have been extremely patient... now thankfully none of these issues effect me but I have been considerate enough to learn and understand what is at hand and support those that are facing the unresolved issues.


----------



## andrewski

I was grossly flippant. I'm sorry. I hope everyone has a good week ❤


----------



## wendyKL

I own the Dragonfly red. Now looking for some tube amps to pair with my IEMs. Any recommendations?


----------



## Shodan0000

I have a question about dragonfly in combination with android using equalizer settings. I use USB audio player pro where the EQ works fine. But for spotify I ofc can not use that eq. It seems that the android eq settings do not have any effect at all on the dac.

I have a oneplus one and use audio FX for equalizing. I tried viper, but that does not work anymore on the rom that I use now (even with selinux on permissive), it's incredibly buggy.

Do any of you use android eq settings with succes? Any tips what I can try?


----------



## Devodonaldson

Android audio settings have no effect on usb audio. The only reason UAPP does is because they designed their own drivers to interact with USB audio.


----------



## Shodan0000

Devodonaldson said:


> Android audio settings have no effect on usb audio. The only reason UAPP does is because they designed their own drivers to interact with USB audio.



Ah ok, good to know, then I stop trying anything


----------



## wendyKL

Hi are there any equalizer apps that work with Spotify in iOS? I'm using an ipod and iphone.


----------



## whaiyun

Got my DFR yesterday. I had the Fulla 2 but sold it because of the annoying qwerks. Decided a mobile-friendly form factor would be a plus if I ever needed it. (Using it at work most of the time) I'm enjoying it! It pairs very well with my Oppo PM-3. I think it has less power than the Fulla 2 but it's expected for its lower power draw to be iOS compatible (without powered hub). But the DAC is nice and clear. I can see how some people might think it's bright but for my laid back PM-3, it works well. 

I had no issues using on my iPhone with the CCK, just plug and play.


----------



## wendyKL (May 3, 2017)

> I had no issues using on my iPhone with the CCK, just plug and play.


 I'm using the Dragonfly red with the CCK on an ipod and my colour is GREEN not Magenta. I'm using spotify. Are you getting Magenta on yours?


----------



## tieuly1

Spotify only has maximum at 44khz so they will all Green even with some Flac at 44khz


----------



## whaiyun

I am seeing this one issue pop up. After a while, (on laptop) my DFR dies and Chrome/YouTube crashes. No sound.
When I replug the DFR, all I hear is static/white noise/popping sound. This is on a laptop dock's USB.
I try a different USB port on the laptop, and it works again.

Gotta reboot the computer for the original port to work.

This is weird, no idea how to troubleshoot it.


----------



## waflet

whaiyun said:


> I am seeing this one issue pop up. After a while, (on laptop) my DFR dies and Chrome/YouTube crashes. No sound.
> When I replug the DFR, all I hear is static/white noise/popping sound. This is on a laptop dock's USB.
> I try a different USB port on the laptop, and it works again.
> 
> ...



Hideeho

If you read back a page or 2 there is someone else with the exact same problem, with the exact same programs, & both are on laptops. I typically use my DFB w/ my iPhone & in the car. I will take it in tonight & see if I can get the same issue on a desktop & then see if it happens w/ explorer/firefox. My guess is it is a problem with either Chrome or laptops (lower power on batt to USB ports?). Do either of you have the problem plugged in or on battery?


----------



## fishda30 (May 3, 2017)

Any suggestions on an hp i could use with the dragon fly red?i'd be using it around the house. I like neutral hps.my favorite is the he560,which is my desktop hp.i'd like something i could bring around the house. Budget would be up to 300$. Was eyeing the k712 pro and the k550. I also own a he400s.

Ps.not sure what happened with my old account.can't login anymore.


----------



## Duskdrums

waflet said:


> Hideeho
> 
> If you read back a page or 2 there is someone else with the exact same problem, with the exact same programs, & both are on laptops. I typically use my DFB w/ my iPhone & in the car. I will take it in tonight & see if I can get the same issue on a desktop & then see if it happens w/ explorer/firefox. My guess is it is a problem with either Chrome or laptops (lower power on batt to USB ports?). Do either of you have the problem plugged in or on battery?



I'm having a very similar problem.  Dell laptop (E7470), when docked and DFR plugged in to USB ports in keyboard or laptop acting as a USB hub.  Mostly occurs when I am listening to a MASTER (MQA) file in tidal desktop app in Windows 7, where the Sound Output device in Tidal is set to DFR.    Unpredictably, the file will stop playing.  If i try to play again (before or after closing out the program), I get very loud static/white noise.  Have to reboot to get the device to work again.  I have tried submitting bug reports/support requests to both AQ and Tidal, but no helpful response.


----------



## EricDH

whaiyun said:


> Got my DFR yesterday. I had the Fulla 2 but sold it because of the annoying qwerks. Decided a mobile-friendly form factor would be a plus if I ever needed it. (Using it at work most of the time) I'm enjoying it! It pairs very well with my Oppo PM-3. I think it has less power than the Fulla 2 but it's expected for its lower power draw to be iOS compatible (without powered hub). But the DAC is nice and clear. I can see how some people might think it's bright but for my laid back PM-3, it works well.
> 
> I had no issues using on my iPhone with the CCK, just plug and play.



I use the DFR with the PM-3 too, and also I am very happy with this combination.


----------



## Leander311

Brand spankin' new head-fi'r here, thanks to the DFR and Monoprice's bargain-beater M1060.  After coming home to both delivered on my front porch yesterday, right out of the box after only a few hours of listening bliss, I'm extremely impressed, as much by the sound as also the ability to obtain this kind of fidelity "directly" from my iPhone 7 Plus.  I've enjoyed the ever-accurate Etymotic ER-4 IEM's for many years, and while they are to my ears impeccably live and engaging, the planars' open nature certainly offer a different - airy and slightly removed - yet equally-engaging experience.

While the only consistent critique of the DFR seems to be its forward nature due to the ESS9016 DAC's relatively sterile, granular tendencies, the M1060's must be a great compliment, because the combination reproduces everything as faithfully gorgeous as I recall from my ER-4's, my Axiom M80 V4 HP's (via Monoprice's ATI-made Monolith 7 amp and Pioneer Elite receiver on DAC duty w/Wolfson WM8728), and often from their live counterparts - I'm a classical/orchestral/choral music nerd and have been part of or have assisted many a recording session.  This is as flat, detailed, and natural as I could imagine one finding in a portable setup, and especially for the uber head-fi cheap $500 price of admission.

My only question before deciding on this combo was: Would the DFR be powerful enough to drive large planars?

In a word - YES!

Several other reviewers had indicated both the M1060 being relatively easy to drive for a large planar, and the DFR's 2.1V output providing ample juice to all but the most demanding cans.  So I took a chance.  After all, with Amazon's return policy and Monoprice's 5-year warranty, "chance" was essentially a free demo.  In my case, the iPhone pushes the M1060's to uncomfortable levels - and without the powered version of Apple's CCK dongle or USB hub - although only at the very upper end of the volume range.  I'm not sure how the DFR's "Bit-perfect" 1-dB incremental volume control works with the iPhone, but with the paltry (and non-adjustable short of jail-breaking) 16-steps provided by the volume buttons, the increments are nearly a crude 6dB.  That said, using a careful touch (*very* careful if having to man-thumb the iPhone Plus single-handed), one can make "Small moves, Ellie. Small moves..." on the app's slider, but it's still a bit cumbersome.  If this is my only gripe, it's nothing in comparison to the joy otherwise delivered.

As much as this new setup has breathed new - and somewhat portable - air into my listening experience, it also uncovered level/EQ biases and production faults I'd not noticed previously.  Passafire's stellar remake of their modern rock-reggae hit "Feel It" is ripe with Will Kubley's always uniquely melodic and masterful bass riffs.  While uncharacteristically round and "P-Bass" for Kubley in tonality, its mix is decisively heavy and over-stated here.  The many countless hours spent perfecting their complex harmonies and adding layered instrumental nuance is made perfect in this space, however.  In Shostakovich's Festive Overture via John Williams and the Boston Pops from their Olympic tour de force "Summon the Heroes", the orchestra's driving build to climax is woven into a fine tapestry, but the piece's resolution with all its fantastic bass drum energy is disappointingly emasculated with obvious compression, and yet not enough with the evident jaggedness of slight clipping distortion.  Granted, most of my listening was done at 44.1/16 resolution, so perhaps the added 48dB of range from a 24 bit sample would have allowed this flaw to disappear from the orchestra's final few lines of this otherwise blockbuster piece.  In The Civil Wars' "I've Got This Friend" from their debut album Barton Hollow, the duo's intoxicating dance of melody leading harmony leading melody is as intimate as ever, with the space and air to seemingly portray the artists and their voices weaving back and forth all around the listener, and Joy Williams' painstaking carefulness in said harmonies is done perfect justice.  Finally, in Ben Rector's piano-accompanied, life-lesson lyrical genius of "Making Money" from his album The Walking in Between, despite some grain I'd never heard before in Rector's voice, the piano was as dynamic and present as any instrument I've heard recorded, bringing a heightened sense of passion, musical wit, and care that Rector bestows both his playing as well as his singing.

In a nutshell, there's an awful lot of good, for not a lot of green, which can at times bring out the not-so-good in the listener's source material.  

Am I willing to take the bad with the good?  ...You bet your red, dragon-flyin' a$$... er, tail.  TAIL!

Cheers!
Nick


----------



## WoodyLuvr

waflet said:


> Hideeho
> 
> If you read back a page or 2 there is someone else with the exact same problem, with the exact same programs, & both are on laptops. I typically use my DFB w/ my iPhone & in the car. I will take it in tonight & see if I can get the same issue on a desktop & then see if it happens w/ explorer/firefox. My guess is it is a problem with either Chrome or laptops (lower power on batt to USB ports?). Do either of you have the problem plugged in or on battery?



I am on a Desktop PC.  Problem hasn't happened for 48 hours now... but before was daily.


----------



## WoodyLuvr

Leander311 said:


> Brand spankin' new head-fi'r here, thanks to the DFR and Monoprice's bargain-beater M1060...
> 
> ...My only question before deciding on this combo was: Would the DFR be powerful enough to drive large planars?
> 
> ...


About two weeks I listened to my friends new Ether C flows and his old pair of HD800s and I was really surprised my DragonFly Black perfectly drove the HD800 with just a little volume to spare.


----------



## TenMoonsNorth (May 4, 2017)

Anyone using Windows?

Can you confirm if the Dragonfly Red is able to choose 16 bit 48Khz in sample rate under Advanced in Sound options. 

Does it show 24 bit only?


----------



## 435279

TenMoonsNorth said:


> Does it show 24 bit only?



For me on Win7 yes.


----------



## Tribble (May 4, 2017)

TenMoonsNorth said:


> Does it show 24 bit only?



That's what I get on Windows 7.  44.1KHz, 48KHz and 96KHz all at *24-bit only*.

(oops, got beaten to it)


----------



## whaiyun

WoodyLuvr said:


> I am on a Desktop PC.  Problem hasn't happened for 48 hours now... but before was daily.


What did you do to fix it?


----------



## WoodyLuvr (May 4, 2017)

whaiyun said:


> What did you do to fix it?


Unfortunately, I haven't figured out what exactly is causing the problem and I spoke too soon as it went off again about two hours ago!  Definitely leaning away from it being an AudioQuest or Foobar2000 problem but rather a Chrome, YouTube, and WIN10 system/driver conflict of some sort.


----------



## fishda30

Good to see that the dfr can drive the monoliths.did you do any mods with your monoliths?

Thank you.


----------



## Leander311

fishda30 said:


> Good to see that the dfr can drive the monoliths.did you do any mods with your monoliths?
> 
> Thank you.



No not yet, though I'm also posting on the M1060 thread, joking with another user there about some black TP we'd seen on Amazon.  Apparently the best mod, and nearly free, is a round of paper towel sandwich behind the driver... Although obviously creating aesthetics issues.


----------



## Tennessee

Anyone using DFR with iPhone 7+ and can confirm its functioning? What adapter would I need?


----------



## jegnyc

As a Dragonfly and Oppo HA-2 owner, I've been following the discussions of the iOS 10.3.x issues in several threads (the Mojo thread as well).  I was fortunate enough to read the complaints before I updated.  

One question asked in the Oppo thread was whether or not anyone has had this issue with an iPad.  I would add a follow-up question to iPad owners - does your iPad have cellular capability or is it only WiFi.


----------



## paulgc

AQ I find a bit unreliable. Beetle DAC announced Jan 2016 (not 2017) and still no sign but "coming soon" on their web. Announced app and firmware update for DFB/DFR and then nothing so far. Also wonder when they are going to start to produce USB-C cables... but I do like my DFR.


----------



## Roen

Tennessee said:


> Anyone using DFR with iPhone 7+ and can confirm its functioning? What adapter would I need?


You'd have to get a CCK at a minimum, no other options. Just get a CCK 3.


----------



## JT-PA

MQA update for DragonFly Red coming May 17th!

http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2017/05/mqa-announces-new-hardware-partnerships/


----------



## 435279

JT-PA said:


> MQA update for DragonFly Red coming May 17th!
> 
> http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2017/05/mqa-announces-new-hardware-partnerships/



We shall see...


----------



## WoodyLuvr (May 11, 2017)

WoodyLuvr said:


> Unfortunately, I haven't figured out what exactly is causing the problem and I spoke too soon as it went off again about two hours ago!  Definitely leaning away from it being an AudioQuest or Foobar2000 problem but rather a Chrome, YouTube, and WIN10 system/driver conflict of some sort.


I think I have pin-pointed the culprit... sound turns off only when listening to music on YouTube in Chrome whether Foobar2K or any other program is open or not.  Now I need to figure out a solution.


----------



## waflet

WoodyLuvr said:


> I think I have pin-pointed the culprit... sound turns off only when listening to music on YouTube in Chrome whether Foobar2K or any other program is open or not.  Now I need to figure out a solution.



Hideeho

Are you going through a USB hub? I have been trying to replicate the issue with my desktop & laptop. The only way I have come close is when I plug my DFB into an OLD hub. It usually will give me a low resources warning & does as you describe otherwise, but every now & then it just shuts down while leaving the LED lit.


----------



## WoodyLuvr

Yes, I am using a brand new UGREEN USB 3.0 hub.  Everytime the sounds turns off the LED is still lit (green); no change.


----------



## waflet

WoodyLuvr said:


> Yes, I am using a brand new UGREEN USB 3.0 hub.  Everytime the sounds turns off the LED is still lit (green); no change.



Hideeho
Have you tried it plugged directly into the computer?


----------



## Mifanning

According to John Darko's website, the "DragonFly-related MQA update is at last scheduled to arrive next week, Wednesday 17th, just in time for Munich High-End 2017. As before, this announcement comes from MQA’s press department and not AudioQuest’s."


----------



## WoodyLuvr

waflet said:


> Hideeho
> Have you tried it plugged directly into the computer?


Not yet; not easily accessible thus, why I use a hub.


----------



## zolom

Hope the expected firmware will address the Android volume issues


----------



## 435279

zolom said:


> Hope the expected firmware will address the Android volume issues



When/If it arrives it has been confirmed that issue will definitely be fixed.


----------



## Tennessee (May 12, 2017)

Roen said:


> You'd have to get a CCK at a minimum, no other options. Just get a CCK 3.


Not sure how CCK with its huge ass connector suppose to fit into iphones lightning port. Or maybe I googled wrong?


----------



## corius

Tennessee said:


> Not sure how CCK with its huge ass connector suppose to fit into iphones lightning port. Or maybe I googled wrong?



Yes, you googled wrong. The CCK has a big end and a small end. small end fits remarkably well.


----------



## Roen

Tennessee said:


> Not sure how CCK with its huge ass connector suppose to fit into iphones lightning port. Or maybe I googled wrong?


There are 3 versions of the CCK. You probably googled the CCK 1.


----------



## paulgc

DAR on the MQA release http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2017/05/mqa-announces-new-hardware-partnerships/


----------



## WoodyLuvr (May 14, 2017)

With the helpful assistance of @waflet I finally determined the ultimate culprit causing my sound to turn off (although my DragonFly Black's LED remained on, lit 'green'):

*AQ JitterBug and UGREEN USB 3.0 Hub don't play nicely with one another *when the JitterBug is plugged into the hub and I am using YouTube in Chrome and/or FooBar2K.

Plug my JitterBug straight into my PC, no problems...
Plug-in my DragonFly Black into the hub/PC alone (without the JitterBug), no problems...
Plug the hub into the JitterBug which is then plugged into the PC, still no problems... go figure?!


----------



## nicholars (May 15, 2017)

hi, I got a dragonfly black 1.5 today, on my galaxy S7 plugged in via the dragontail USB cable and using UAPP, I get quite a lot of hissing / background noise, it hisses on everything not just UAPP, in the reviews it said this DAC / amp was silent, but it has more hiss than just using the S7 headphone port, with IE80 there is a lot of hiss, with se215 there is some hissing, with over ear headphones there is no hissing, but is this normal for the dragonfly black? or is mine faulty?

Other than the hissing it sounds good. but the hissing / background noise is a bit irritating as I was expecting it to be silent from what reviews said. To be fair it is pretty much silent with my SRH1540 and THX00, but with the IE80 and SE215 IEMS, it has obvious hissing. Cannot hear it over music except for quiet parts, but can you tell me if this is faulty? or normal? It does sound pretty damn good with the IE80, except for the hissing... I would be happy with it, if it did not have the background noise.


----------



## Devodonaldson

I don't own the Black do I can speak with certainty, but I do own the red. I 98% listen yo full size cans, but the couple times I plugged in my Shure SE530, there was ZERO noise. Perhaps you do have a faulty dac.


----------



## west0ne

nicholars said:


> hi, I got a dragonfly black 1.5 today, on my galaxy S7 plugged in via the dragontail USB cable and using UAPP, I get quite a lot of hissing / background noise, it hisses on everything not just UAPP, in the reviews it said this DAC / amp was silent, but it has more hiss than just using the S7 headphone port, with IE80 there is a lot of hiss, with se215 there is some hissing, with over ear headphones there is no hissing, but is this normal for the dragonfly black? or is mine faulty?
> 
> Other than the hissing it sounds good. but the hissing / background noise is a bit irritating as I was expecting it to be silent from what reviews said. To be fair it is pretty much silent with my SRH1540 and THX00, but with the IE80 and SE215 IEMS, it has obvious hissing. Cannot hear it over music except for quiet parts, but can you tell me if this is faulty? or normal? It does sound pretty damn good with the IE80, except for the hissing... I would be happy with it, if it did not have the background noise.



Have your tried it with a computer rather than the Android phone? When you use UAPP have you got it set to bitperfect and using the hardware volume to control the volume?

I find that with 16Ohm IEMs if I use the default internal hardware volume setting and control volume using the Android volume controls I will get hissing; if I set the Android volume to 100% and control the volume at a hardware level on the DFB there is no hissing. On Windows where all volume is done at a hardware level I don't get the hissing. With my 16Ohm IEM and the S7 I have the Android volume set to 100% and the DFB hardware volume set at 5%.


----------



## jegnyc

Has anyone tried the official 10.3.2 release that came out yesterday?


----------



## Bepli (May 16, 2017)

Some news on when the Update comes out (MQA and stuff)?


----------



## Bepli

west0ne said:


> Have your tried it with a computer rather than the Android phone? When you use UAPP have you got it set to bitperfect and using the hardware volume to control the volume?
> 
> I find that with 16Ohm IEMs if I use the default internal hardware volume setting and control volume using the Android volume controls I will get hissing; if I set the Android volume to 100% and control the volume at a hardware level on the DFB there is no hissing. On Windows where all volume is done at a hardware level I don't get the hissing. With my 16Ohm IEM and the S7 I have the Android volume set to 100% and the DFB hardware volume set at 5%.


I think on the Black hissing is totally normal (with IEMs). I also use the Shure SE215 with the Black and there is hissing both on Windows and on the Phone, but it is totally normal since the DragonFly is not made for low impedance IEMs. I think the AudioQuest site also says they recommend atleast 32 Ohm Headphones for the best experience. (Do not quote me on that exact number)


----------



## nicholars (May 16, 2017)

west0ne said:


> Have your tried it with a computer rather than the Android phone? When you use UAPP have you got it set to bitperfect and using the hardware volume to control the volume?
> 
> I find that with 16Ohm IEMs if I use the default internal hardware volume setting and control volume using the Android volume controls I will get hissing; if I set the Android volume to 100% and control the volume at a hardware level on the DFB there is no hissing. On Windows where all volume is done at a hardware level I don't get the hissing. With my 16Ohm IEM and the S7 I have the Android volume set to 100% and the DFB hardware volume set at 5%.



Thanks for reply, through computer USB I get a slight hissing, maybe its because the IE80 are very sensitive to hissing etc. I think I remember reading this before, or could be the DFB is not working properly, I will try what you said with the S7...

So what exact settings should I use in the UAPP volume options and android? If I set android volume to max, then set hardware volume very low, it has almost no hissing, but then the music is obviously quiet, when I turn up the music, it is approx 40% on the hardware volume slider, there is some hissing at this volume, but I am not sure how you can set the hardware volume at 5% and have enough gain, at hardware volume 5%, almost no hissing, but the music is very quiet, I had the EQ gain lower so it was lowering volume, not sure if its normal to have a small amount or if it should be 100% silent background.


----------



## west0ne

nicholars said:


> Thanks for reply, through computer USB I get a slight hissing, maybe its because the IE80 are very sensitive to hissing etc. I think I remember reading this before, or could be the DFB is not working properly, I will try what you said with the S7...
> 
> So what exact settings should I use in the UAPP volume options and android? If I set android volume to max, then set hardware volume very low, it has almost no hissing, but then the music is obviously quiet, when I turn up the music, it is approx 40% on the hardware volume slider, there is some hissing at this volume, but I am not sure how you can set the hardware volume at 5% and have enough gain, at hardware volume 5%, almost no hissing, but the music is very quiet, I had the EQ gain lower so it was lowering volume, not sure if its normal to have a small amount or if it should be 100% silent background.



The level you can set will obviously depend on the headphones you are using (Impedance and sensitivity). The 5% I quoted was a comfortable listening level with my Tennmak Pro, I can't imagine being able to push it up to 40% and being able to safely listen.

In the settings of UAPP set 'Bit perfect (USB audio) to on, in the 'Volume Control' setting set to 'Hardware volume Control' when you tap the speaker icon for volume you will be controlling the DFB at a hardware level.

For any other apps such as Spotify you would need to be rooted in order to control the DFB at a hardware level.

When I use my DFB with Windows in a quiet environment I can get away with setting the volume level at 2% and it is still loud enough with no hissing.

With BA IEMs it may not be possible to avoid some hissing.


----------



## WoodyLuvr

Still no sound loss hiccups since the slight change in the placement of the JitterBug in my audio signal path:

_PC > AQ JitterBug > UGREEN USB Hub > AQ DragonFly Black > Headphones_​


WoodyLuvr said:


> With the helpful assistance of @waflet I finally determined the ultimate culprit causing my sound to turn off (although my DragonFly Black's LED remained on, lit 'green'):
> 
> *AQ JitterBug and UGREEN USB 3.0 Hub don't play nicely with one another *when the JitterBug is plugged into the hub and I am using YouTube in Chrome and/or FooBar2K.
> 
> ...


----------



## nicholars (May 16, 2017)

west0ne said:


> The level you can set will obviously depend on the headphones you are using (Impedance and sensitivity). The 5% I quoted was a comfortable listening level with my Tennmak Pro, I can't imagine being able to push it up to 40% and being able to safely listen.
> 
> In the settings of UAPP set 'Bit perfect (USB audio) to on, in the 'Volume Control' setting set to 'Hardware volume Control' when you tap the speaker icon for volume you will be controlling the DFB at a hardware level.
> 
> ...



So what you are saying is that some hissing with some headphones is not a faulty DFB? if I use bitperfect and hardware volume, to be fair there is very little hissing unless I have it uncomfortably loud, if I use the EQ (not bitperfect), there is more hissing, I do not get much hissing with my other headphones, just with the IE80. I am thinking maybe the DFB is not faulty? or should I swap it for another one? it does sound very good other than the hissing. When I plug it into the S7, there is hissing, when I open UAPP and play music with bitperfect, it is almost silent.

Its just that from reviews they all said BLACK background, and there is some hissing, its not BLACK, like I read in reviews lol. But yes with bitperfect there is very little hissing at normal volume.


----------



## SpiderNhan

I got really low hissing with the super sensitive 8ohm Dunu DN-2000J on my Red, but that was the only one and music at any level would drown it out.

I have never used a Black.


----------



## Kalavere

So I've had the Black v1.5 for a week or so, an impulse buy along with a pair of Audiofly AF140 IEMs. 

My query is, why is the Black _SO _damned loud on Windows? If I set Tidal to mute, and Windows to mute, then move the Windows volume to 4 it pulls Tidal out of mute and they are a decent listening level. So Tidal, presumably is at 1/100 volume and Windows is at 4/100. I am using Tidal exclusive mode which is WASAPI, but the Black is just deafeningly powerful with IEMs. I don't dare click 'Force Volume' in the DFB settings in Tidal for fear it will actually destroy my IEMs, anything over 15/100 sounds like it will irreparably damage the IEMs.

Using UAPP on Android I get to about 40/100, that's a healthy volume level.


----------



## Bepli

Kalavere said:


> So I've had the Black v1.5 for a week or so, an impulse buy along with a pair of Audiofly AF140 IEMs.
> 
> My query is, why is the Black _SO _damned loud on Windows? If I set Tidal to mute, and Windows to mute, then move the Windows volume to 4 it pulls Tidal out of mute and they are a decent listening level. So Tidal, presumably is at 1/100 volume and Windows is at 4/100. I am using Tidal exclusive mode which is WASAPI, but the Black is just deafeningly powerful with IEMs. I don't dare click 'Force Volume' in the DFB settings in Tidal for fear it will actually destroy my IEMs, anything over 15/100 sounds like it will irreparably damage the IEMs.
> 
> Using UAPP on Android I get to about 40/100, that's a healthy volume level.


I recommend checking both keep volume and exclusive mode. Than Start a song WITHOUT headphones in the DragonFly, than turn down volume to as low as possible(not 0 tho). Pause the Song plug your iems in and start again.
Might be annoying, but it will work.


----------



## Bepli

AudioQuest now says that the update will come today! Source:http://www.audioquest.com/digitalupdates/


----------



## Bepli

AudioQuest just released the Update! http://www.audioquest.com/digitalupdates/


----------



## zolom (May 17, 2017)

The upgrade is ready for download. Two files: one for the Android volume (fw 1.03) and the 2nd for MQA (fw 1.06)
Please share experince

Thanks


----------



## fester1986

I just update to 1.06fw, on 3 diferent devices android volum fix not working...same results someone ?


----------



## Herman

I have downloaded the MacOS version, but haven't tried it yet. Could not find any release notes.


----------



## SpiderNhan

Downloaded the update and installed it with no issues. Light on the DFR started blinking green and then blinking blue as the update progressed. Once finished Windows reinstalled the newly detected device which now shows up in Playback Devices as Audioquest Dragonfly Red. The v1.0 has been removed.

Launched Tidal and a message popped up saying something like "MQA device detected. Set as default?" I did so, and then turned on Exclusive Mode, Force Volume and Passthrough MQA. Started an MQA song, _Shape of You - Ed Sheeran_, and.... it plays but the LED is green. My connection is kind of crap here so I'm having trouble loading up songs but it's working I think.

Android volume seems a bit more controlled in that there isn't a crazy jump between volume step 14 and volume step 15, but it doesn't seem to get any louder than it did before.


----------



## Bepli

fester1986 said:


> I just update to 1.06fw, on 3 diferent devices android volum fix not working...same results someone ?





SpiderNhan said:


> Downloaded the update and installed it with no issues. Light on the DFR started blinking green and then blinking blue as the update progressed. Once finished Windows reinstalled the newly detected device which now shows up in Playback Devices as Audioquest Dragonfly Red. The v1.0 has been removed.
> 
> Launched Tidal and a message popped up saying something like "MQA device detected. Set as default?" I did so, and then turned on Exclusive Mode, Force Volume and Passthrough MQA. Started an MQA song, _Shape of You - Ed Sheeran_, and.... it plays but the LED is green. My connection is kind of crap here so I'm having trouble loading up songs but it's working I think.
> 
> Android volume seems a bit more controlled in that there isn't a crazy jump between volume step 14 and volume step 15, but it doesn't seem to get any louder than it did before.


The AudioQuest DragonFly is a MQA renderer not a hardware decoder, so disable passthrough mqa than after a mqa track is detected it will change to bright pink.
Also about the Android Volume fix it is not compatible with all devices.


----------



## Bepli

I did update and the DragonFly now detects MQA, but it doesnt go blue but it goes to a bright Pink. Sounds nice but I cannot tell any big difference


----------



## 435279

Bepli said:


> ... Sounds nice but I cannot tell any big difference



Who cares we have a new light colour now. 

Update went OK for me I will have a listen and see if I can detect a difference between normal and MQA playback.


----------



## zolom

Please share your ANDROID Volume experince with the upgraded DFR (especially with the S7 Edge running Nougat)

Thanks


----------



## WoodyLuvr (May 17, 2017)

Updated my DragonFly Black to 1.06 as well with no difficulties (WIN 10 - 64-bit)... blinked green twice or thrice, then orange twice or thrice, then blinked blue for many times.  When update was finished it turned red, then turned pink until I changed it back to 24 bit 44,100 kHz where it is now sitting at green again.

What is the AQ Filter Driver Installer?  It downloaded with the AQ Desktop Manager program.


----------



## Kalavere

Bepli said:


> I recommend checking both keep volume and exclusive mode. Than Start a song WITHOUT headphones in the DragonFly, than turn down volume to as low as possible(not 0 tho). Pause the Song plug your iems in and start again.
> Might be annoying, but it will work.



Hmmm, that doesn't seem to have made much of a difference, I'm still using 4/100 on the volume scale. Maybe it's just the armature drivers, I know they are super sensitive. 

Thanks anyways.


----------



## west0ne

Reports on Reddit that UAPP support is broken with the new firmware update, can anyone confirm that they have updated DFB and have it working properly with UAPP.


----------



## Bepli

west0ne said:


> Reports on Reddit that UAPP support is broken with the new firmware update, can anyone confirm that they have updated DFB and have it working properly with UAPP.


Can confirm that it is broken for me too I dont know why. BTW I am Bebbleg on reddit so dont count me as another


----------



## 435279

west0ne said:


> Reports on Reddit that UAPP support is broken with the new firmware update, can anyone confirm that they have updated DFB and have it working properly with UAPP.


Works OK for me

HTC 10 - Android 7.0
UAAP - 3.5.3

No MQA decoding in UAPP when I select an MQA track though. Light stays blue for a 48Khz track.


----------



## Bepli

SteveOliver said:


> Works OK for me
> 
> HTC 10 - Android 7.0
> UAAP - 3.5.3
> ...


Again the AudioQuest DragonFly is not a MQA Decoder it is just a renderer, so you need a compatible software that does the first stage decode atm. Audirvana and Tidal Desktop App work


----------



## SpiderNhan

Bepli said:


> Again the AudioQuest DragonFly is not a MQA Decoder it is just a renderer, so you need a compatible software that does the first stage decode atm. Audirvana and Tidal Desktop App work


I was already able to get 88.2 and 96khz playback before the update. How is this any different from before?


----------



## Bepli

SpiderNhan said:


> I was already able to get 88.2 and 96khz playback before the update. How is this any different from before?


If you use the Tidal Desktop App for example and disable Pass-through MQA, Tidal does Stage 1 and the DAC in the DragonFly Stage 2 so you get the full MQA experience.
Basically : MQA File (24/48) -> Tidal (24/96) -> DragonFly (32/384 if the studio master is at that rate)
It basically bypasses the limit of 24/96 (The color will change from purple to pink if MQA works). SOURCE: http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2017/01/mqa-tidal-where-are-we-now/


----------



## 435279

Bepli said:


> Again the AudioQuest DragonFly is not a MQA Decoder it is just a renderer, so you need a compatible software that does the first stage decode atm. Audirvana and Tidal Desktop App work


OK thanks for the info. I suppose I thought wrongly that Tidal would do that, but then again I've seen a post stating that Tidal doesn't do any decoding.


----------



## Bepli

SteveOliver said:


> OK thanks for the info. I suppose I thought wrongly that Tidal would do that, but then again I've seen a post stating that Tidal doesn't do any decoding.


It does Stage 1


----------



## west0ne

I've just updated my DFB to 1.06.

I'm using it with Galaxy S7E (Exynos) running 6.0.1 rooted. DFB is working with UAPP but volume still seems to default to 44 and isn't affected by the volume buttons. I can still manually adjust volume using ALSA.

I'm not sure what the 'volume fix for Android' is supposed to have done.


----------



## Bepli

west0ne said:


> I've just updated my DFB to 1.06.
> 
> I'm using it with Galaxy S7E (Exynos) running 6.0.1 rooted. DFB is working with UAPP but volume still seems to default to 44 and isn't affected by the volume buttons. I can still manually adjust volume using ALSA.
> 
> I'm not sure what the 'volume fix for Android' is supposed to have done.


Same


----------



## SpiderNhan

Red works with UAPP 3.5.1

Source is Galaxy S6 Active, Nougat 7.0

Tested with local files and Tidal streaming.


----------



## JT-PA (May 17, 2017)

Installed the 1.06 MQA firmware on my DragonFly Red using my Mac with no problems.  After upgrading, if you are running latest Audirvana Plus on Mac, select Preferences --> Audio System --> Auto-Detect MQA devices, then restart Audirvana.  Go back to same preferences panel after restart and it should say "MQA Renderer Detected".

Listening to Tidal/MQA through Audirvana with my HiFiMan Edition X, and everything sounds very nice, though I'm at work, so I haven't done any A/B testing...


----------



## 435279

Bepli said:


> It does Stage 1



I meant UAPP, not Tidal, a double typo.


----------



## dacari

Why a firmware for each feature? Are not the 1.06 cumulative?


----------



## Bepli

dacari said:


> Why a firmware for each feature? Are not the 1.06 cumulative?


You are right! No one was ever able to just install .03 since when the update tool came out .06 was the latest!


----------



## Mojo777

Got pink!


----------



## Bepli

Mojo777 said:


> Got pink!


Than MQA works just make sure it is not the 96 kHz Purple, but if you use the Tidal App that is not possible anyways!


----------



## zolom

So? Should I install 1.06 only? Or should I install 1.03 and then 1.06?

Thanks


----------



## Bepli

zolom said:


> So? Should I install 1.06 only? Or should I install 1.03 and then 1.06?
> 
> Thanks


Should not be able to install .03. Just install the newest!


----------



## dacari

Any improvements with Windows volume with sensitive iems? still too louder?


----------



## Bepli

dacari said:


> Any improvements with Windows volume with sensitive iems? still too louder?


Well both are not made for IEM so jeah still loud the black is usable @1-4% tho


----------



## zolom (May 17, 2017)

Anyone experienced an improved volume behavior of the DFR with an android nougat phone?
1. Higher overall volume level with Tidal or Spotify?
2. Lesser impact of the last volume step (level 14 to 15)?

Thanks


----------



## SpiderNhan

zolom said:


> Anyone experienced an improved volume behavior of the DFR with an android nougat phone?
> 1. Higher overall volume level with Tidal or Spotify?
> 2. Lesser impact of the last volume step (level 14 to 15)?
> 
> Thanks


I didn't notice 1, but definitely had the same experience with 2.


----------



## Herman

It's probably placebo, but sound seems improved. More relaxed. And no more clicking with cck2


----------



## HerrWallen

Updated DFR to 1.06, no change in volumelevels on my OnePlus 3T ... 

Deeply dissapointed atm.


----------



## Tennessee

Volume still maxed at 33% on DFR with 7.1.2 nougat. Piece of s***.


----------



## BenKatz

Volume still broken for Android. Their Download page said specifically that they've addressed the Android volume issue, but nope.


----------



## BenKatz

I just contacted Audioquest about this issue, and here is their answer:

"All operating systems other than Android have no problem with the volume level.  The unfortunate thing is that each Android phone manufacturer is at liberty to include or omit whatever features they deem appropriate, and to modify the Android OS as they see fit.  Unfortunately our firmware update can only do so much.  We will have to revisit this to see if there is any more we can do to address this situation.  I would need to contact our R&D department about this, and I regret I don’t have an answer at this time."

My device is an Xperia XZ. I suggest all other users post what Android devices they have if they encounter this issue.


----------



## killerfrenzi

On mobile, the only thing that isn't Android is iOS. 

I'm hoping to see AT LEAST one Android device to receive a working fix so that Audioquest doesn't seem like they're sitting on their ass on this.


----------



## west0ne

I'm still surprised that they didn't just set the default hardware volume to 100% and then just force us to control the volume with Android software. It would have at least allowed the DFB/DFR to be used a full volume or as line-out on Android devices. As it stands even after the new firmware the default volume hasn't changed so on the DFB it's set at 44 of 64.


----------



## coolcrew23

Bepli said:


> The AudioQuest DragonFly is a MQA renderer not a hardware decoder, so disable passthrough mqa than after a mqa track is detected it will change to bright pink.
> Also about the Android Volume fix it is not compatible with all devices.


Thanks just went these settings now and dragonfly red shows a bright pink light.


----------



## zolom (May 18, 2017)

Just updated my DFR to 1.06

The volume issues with my S7 Edge (exynos, nougat) were partially solved:

1. The steep volume increase between volume level 14 to 15 is finally resolved/smoothed
2. No issues with UAPP (bit-perfect mode) - same as before
3. The maximum volume level with my SE846 playing native music players/Spotify/Tidal is still low - same as before


----------



## Bepli

BenKatz said:


> I just contacted Audioquest about this issue, and here is their answer:
> 
> "All operating systems other than Android have no problem with the volume level.  The unfortunate thing is that each Android phone manufacturer is at liberty to include or omit whatever features they deem appropriate, and to modify the Android OS as they see fit.  Unfortunately our firmware update can only do so much.  We will have to revisit this to see if there is any more we can do to address this situation.  I would need to contact our R&D department about this, and I regret I don’t have an answer at this time."
> 
> My device is an Xperia XZ. I suggest all other users post what Android devices they have if they encounter this issue.


Funny thing is that the Volume on my XZ works perfect with UAPP. Every app that supports audio out over usb (direct not over the Android Mixer works for me).


----------



## zolom (May 18, 2017)

AFAIK, UAPP employs its own USB Audio drivers while other audio/streaming apps utilize the embedded phone's USB drivers


----------



## VintageFlanker (May 18, 2017)

Great. But I still cannot use MQA on UAPP (Tidal). It still resample down masters tracks (24bits but 88.2 to 44.1 and 96 to 48) as before. No issue with Tidal desktop app on Windows ("MQA detected")


----------



## georgelai57

And with two FW updates released, AQ does not make a comment on whether iOS users should update their USB 3 CCK?


----------



## Citsur86

georgelai57 said:


> And with two FW updates released, AQ does not make a comment on whether iOS users should update their USB 3 CCK?


I'm assuming that shouldn't affect the MQA update.


----------



## kundica (May 18, 2017)

VintageFlanker said:


> Great. But I still cannot use MQA on UAPP (Tidal). It still resample down masters tracks (24bits but 88.2 to 44.1 and 96 to 48) as before. No issue with Tidal desktop app on Windows ("MQA detected")


Uh, the Android Tidal app doesn't even support it. Not sure what you were expecting there.


----------



## CactusPete23

Just installed the v1.06 Firmware on my Dragonfly Red.  It is supposed to allow MQA and solve some android phone volume issues...  Will need to try without UAPP to find out.


----------



## WoodyLuvr

WoodyLuvr said:


> Updated my DragonFly Black to 1.06 as well with no difficulties (WIN 10 - 64-bit)... blinked green twice or thrice, then orange twice or thrice, then blinked blue for many times.  When update was finished it turned red, then turned pink until I changed it back to 24 bit 44,100 kHz where it is now sitting at green again.
> 
> What is the AQ Filter Driver Installer?  It downloaded with the AQ Desktop Manager program.


Anyone figure out the difference yet between AQ Device Manager and AQ Filter Driver Installer that came with the Windows 10/8 64-bit download?


----------



## CactusPete23 (May 18, 2017)

Don't know...   The AQ Filter Driver In staller has two buttons...  One to Install, and One to Uninstall.   However for me, it looks like only the Uninstall is highlighted to click.  And I do not dare to possibly Uninstall something from the DFR or my PC when it works fine...  So I am ignoring the filter driver installer for now..

Driver would normally be something for the PC to enable the DFR to be detected, etc....


----------



## VintageFlanker

kundica said:


> Uh, the Android Tidal app doesn't even support it. Not sure what you were expecting there.



Guy, I'm not using Tidal App for my DFR. USB Audio Player Pro supports Tidal stream in bit perfect and is suppose to support MQA as well (based on latests UAPP updates changelogs)...


----------



## WoodyLuvr

CactusPete23 said:


> Don't know...   The AQ Filter Driver In staller has two buttons...  One to Install, and One to Uninstall.   However for me, it looks like only the Uninstall is highlighted to click.  And I do not dare to possibly Uninstall something from the DFR or my PC when it works fine...  So I am ignoring the filter driver installer for now..
> 
> Driver would normally be something for the PC to enable the DFR to be detected, etc....


LOL!  Exactly!  In the same boat, I don't dare to touch it!  We need to find a guinea pig to try it out and report back to us... Mikey... Mikey!  Where's Mikey?!


----------



## kundica

VintageFlanker said:


> Guy, I'm not using Tidal App for my DFR. USB Audio Player Pro supports Tidal stream in bit perfect and is suppose to support MQA as well (based on latests UAPP updates changelogs)...


I know what app you're using but never saw anywhere that it would support MQA.


----------



## chboehm

Folks I have upgraded my DF Red to be MQA capable using the Audioquest updater from their site.  A couple of notes which should clear up some confusion which I am reading here and elsewhere about how to best use DF Red with Tidal MQA files:

DF Red is an MQA "renderer", not a full "decoder", so contrary to DARKO's post of a few months ago, do NOT click "passthrough MQA" in the settings.  Leave that unchecked and the Tidal desktop software does the initial "unfold", then passes the file to DF to do the "final unfold"/"render".  I have tested it both ways and if you tick the box to passthrough MQA then DF lights up green or blue typically, indicating it is not getting to the final MQA full unfolding.  If you leave unticked, Tidal desktop app does the initial unfold, DF does the final, and you get the "bright pink" color on DF, which indicates you are getting the full MQA experience.  

Michael Lavorgna explains it all very well:

http://www.audiostream.com/content/mqa-decoding-explained

Presumably a different DAC which does the "full decoding" vs. "final rendering" would be best served by ticking the box to passthrough MQA.  Not sure if the "renderer" or "decoder" are necessarily better (probably both equal as long as render is supplied with a file which has gone through the first unfold).  I think both methods get you the same result, with the renderer (such as DF Red) relying on software for initial decode while the "decoder" DAC does it all itself.  

I am getting unbelievable SQ with MQA through DF Red and Noble Massdrop X (can't wait to try with Oppo PM-3s later today).  Had recently been enjoying Chord Mojo as an upgrade from DF Red, but MQA on DF Red seems to bring the DF at least up to par in many respects, if not surpassing in some, the Chord Mojo.


----------



## mink70

chboehm said:


> I am getting unbelievable SQ with MQA through DF Red and Noble Massdrop X (can't wait to try with Oppo PM-3s later today).  Had recently been enjoying Chord Mojo as an upgrade from DF Red, but MQA on DF Red seems to bring the DF at least up to par in many respects, if not surpassing in some, the Chord Mojo.



Same here. Just incredible SQ with the desktop Tidal application serving Masters to the DragonFly Red. It's not subtle at all. With the Nightowls, the separation, richness and especially the bass are just in another world.


----------



## BenKatz

Bepli said:


> Funny thing is that the Volume on my XZ works perfect with UAPP. Every app that supports audio out over usb (direct not over the Android Mixer works for me).



True, tried it as well. It's still a deal breaker yet, as UAPP does not support Tidal offline music (and when using on the go, you want offline, for obvious reasons).

I've had a lengthy discussion with the Audioquest customer support. Turns out, the issue is with Android. While there might be some Android manufacturers that did implement the proper USB drivers independently of what Android has, the issue is simply with android nougat's current USB drivers.

My xz works perfectly with many other dacs, even Fiio's small K1 which uses the device's volume. Basically from the discussion I've had with them 3 things are clear:

1) Audioquest most probably cannot do anything further to help with this issue - it's on Android's side

2) There's a pretty big chance that the updated USB drivers for DACs like the Dragonfly will be present in Android O (Audioquest staff suggested this), so until android O rolls out, we simply can only use UAPP and rely on offline music (on device) or solely streaming from services like Tidal. 

3) They suggested trying the Black, as it has a different analog type of incorporated volume control (you can check out Auioquest's comparison chart on their site - it specifies the Red and Black differ in the volume control implementation). I did - same issue (though it's a bit louder - 15% i'd say). Also, there's a clear quality and output difference when used on a pc/laptop - if you can afford it, Red is definitely the way to go - though the Black is still excellent in that price bracket.


----------



## dmance

I'm so glad to hear others chime in on the great SQ from Tidal Masters thru DragonFly Red.   I was over on the Chord Hugo2 forum indicating i am having second thoughts about my pre-order since the 1.06 upgrade and an afternoon enjoying Tidal Masters..I mean how much better can it get?   Well there is no discussion with Chord fanboys on that forum  - but I hope the MQA buzz now will get Chord to pay attention.


----------



## BenKatz

Volume issue solved! (hack-ish) - using Xperia XZ - Dragonfly RED - UAPP installed (costs) 

I just solved the volume issue - please try this:

Connect your Red to your device -> Open UAPP and play something -> set volume to the max and then stop (so you don't blow your ears/headphones) -> exit UAPP (close it by pressing "x" on the notification tray) -> open any music app (in my case Tidal and Sony's own music app) -> play.

I don't know what UAPP does, but basically, if you set the volume to the max, play a few secs, stop, completely exit UAPP, the volume output works (it's as if UAPP's usb drivers remain active) for anything on the device.

Please confirm if you will.

All the best!


----------



## Tennessee (May 18, 2017)

BenKatz said:


> Volume issue solved! (hack-ish) - using Xperia XZ - Dragonfly RED - UAPP installed (costs)
> 
> I just solved the volume issue - please try this:
> 
> ...


You can do the same just by clicking a script 'set pcm to 100%', so what's the point playing funny games with uapp to do that..?
edit. I just checked and you need to be rooted for that, so that would be an answer for my question. 
Anyway android without root is like a licking lollipop through a window. ^^


----------



## Dinglehoser

BenKatz said:


> I just contacted Audioquest about this issue, and here is their answer:
> 
> "All operating systems other than Android have no problem with the volume level.  The unfortunate thing is that each Android phone manufacturer is at liberty to include or omit whatever features they deem appropriate, and to modify the Android OS as they see fit.  Unfortunately our firmware update can only do so much.  We will have to revisit this to see if there is any more we can do to address this situation.  I would need to contact our R&D department about this, and I regret I don’t have an answer at this time."
> 
> My device is an Xperia XZ. I suggest all other users post what Android devices they have if they encounter this issue.



I've got a Pixel, stock (not rooted or unlocked), and the new firmware does nothing to fix the issue. You'd think they'd fix it at least for the canonical implementation of the current version of Android, but nope.


----------



## BenKatz

Tennessee said:


> You can do the same just by clicking a script 'set pcm to 100%', so what's the point playing funny games with uapp to do that..?
> edit. I just checked and you need to be rooted for that, so that would be an answer for my question.
> Anyway android without root is like a licking lollipop through a window. ^^



Well the whole point os for non rooted.

I wouldnt root my phone at all. Why? I like netflix. Netflix announced their app wont work anymore with rooted devices. Why would I root and give up Netflix? Makes no sense (for me). Other streamers will quickly follow suite: google music , tidal, amazon prime, etc


----------



## nicholars

What is the volume problem? Using UAPP I set the "volume steps" to 50, then no problems at all with volume control in UAPP, probably you are talking about something else.


----------



## BenKatz

nicholars said:


> What is the volume problem? Using UAPP I set the "volume steps" to 50, then no problems at all with volume control in UAPP, probably you are talking about something else.



Lets say you dont wamma use uapp. You wanna use tidal or deezer or google play, and use tidal with offline playlists for listening on the go when you dont wanna use your internet. How can you do that?


----------



## daddyo1973

chboehm said:


> Folks I have upgraded my DF Red to be MQA capable using the Audioquest updater from their site.  A couple of notes which should clear up some confusion which I am reading here and elsewhere about how to best use DF Red with Tidal MQA files:
> 
> DF Red is an MQA "renderer", not a full "decoder", so contrary to DARKO's post of a few months ago, do NOT click "passthrough MQA" in the settings.  Leave that unchecked and the Tidal desktop software does the initial "unfold", then passes the file to DF to do the "final unfold"/"render".  I have tested it both ways and if you tick the box to passthrough MQA then DF lights up green or blue typically, indicating it is not getting to the final MQA full unfolding.  If you leave unticked, Tidal desktop app does the initial unfold, DF does the final, and you get the "bright pink" color on DF, which indicates you are getting the full MQA experience.



Thanks for this!  Up until now I was only getting blue and green but now get the bright pink.

Recently I have been using my Chord Mojo as my primary DAC and kept the DF Red in the drawer.  I am looking forward to doing some listening comparisons this weekend to see if the DF has made any gains.


----------



## big45-70

Does the DFR have more power then the fiio e10k? I'm thinking about picking one up to run out of a laptop to power a set of he400i's.


----------



## big45-70

Also just though of this,  the DFR has an output power of 2X135mw @ 32 ohms,  the Fiio A3 has a total output power of 270mw @32 ohms.  So since 135x2 = 270, does that mean the Fiio A3 and the DFR have the same amping power?


----------



## SpiderNhan

BenKatz said:


> Volume issue solved! (hack-ish) - using Xperia XZ - Dragonfly RED - UAPP installed (costs)
> 
> I just solved the volume issue - please try this:
> 
> ...


I can confirm that this hack works on my Samsung Galaxy S6 Active, Nougat 7.0. Brilliant!


----------



## west0ne

BenKatz said:


> Volume issue solved! (hack-ish) - using Xperia XZ - Dragonfly RED - UAPP installed (costs)
> 
> I just solved the volume issue - please try this:
> 
> ...



Confirmed working for me on the following:-

S7E (Exynos) - Rooted running stock 6.0.1
S5 (SD) - Running CM13
Moto G4 - Running CM13
Lenovo YogaBook - 6.0.1 Stock ROM

You can set the volume to any level and it seems to hold until you unplug the DFB. I have checked the hardware volume level using ALSA commands and they change based on the setting in UAPP so it is being done at a hardware level.


----------



## zolom (May 19, 2017)

Working like a charm with DFR (s7e, exynos, nougat, not rooted). 
THANKS


----------



## BenKatz

west0ne said:


> Confirmed working for me on the following:-
> 
> S7E (Exynos) - Rooted running stock 6.0.1
> S5 (SD) - Running CM13
> ...



I'm happy it's working for you guys! It seems UAPP is actually setting the max volume for the USB audio device, which as standard was read erroneously by Android when connecting the Dragonfly, in this case (it read max as step 22 out of 41 steps, which is how the Dragonflies are programmed).

This is CONFIRMED working on a non rooted device - mine is an Xperia XZ non rooted, so you don't need to worry about voiding your warranty in case some were worried.

Hopefully Android O will solve this issue, allowing us to have the proper Audioquest /other USB audio DACs with no hardware volume control functionality without the help of UAPP.


----------



## HerrWallen (May 19, 2017)

BenKatz said:


> This is CONFIRMED working on a non rooted device - mine is an Xperia XZ non rooted, so you don't need to worry about voiding your warranty in case some were worried.



Just tested this on my Oneplus 3T with success.
(OnePlus 3T, stock 7.1.1, OxygenOS-version 4.1.3)

What rubs me the wrong way about this (and the previous root-fix) is that there is a solution for this albeit on the software-level that AQ keeps ignoring completely.
In other words, a signed app in the android service-domain from AQ could fix this.


----------



## BenKatz

HerrWallen said:


> Just tested this on my Oneplus 3T with success.
> (OnePlus 3T, stock 7.1.1, OxygenOS-version 4.1.3)
> 
> What rubs me the wrong way about this (and the previous root-fix) is that there is a solution for this albeit on the software-level that AQ keeps ignoring completely.
> In other words, a signed app in the android service-domain from AQ could fix this.



I've had quite a long e-mail conversation with the Audioquest staff 2 days ago, and basically what they said is that it boils down to Android's USB drivers, on specific phones. They said that the issue is on Android's part, and it is kind of true since for example on an iPhone you don't have this issue. They also specified there's a big chance the drivers will be 100% compatible on Android O, as Google has been working with the likes of Sony and other audio manufacturers to make their phones more audiophile-friendly, and are aware of these issues. I

It is definitely software, but Android software related.


----------



## tarainfo

west0ne said:


> Confirmed working for me on the following:-
> 
> S7E (Exynos) - Rooted running stock 6.0.1
> S5 (SD) - Running CM13
> ...





BenKatz said:


> Volume issue solved! (hack-ish) - using Xperia XZ - Dragonfly RED - UAPP installed (costs)
> 
> I just solved the volume issue - please try this:
> 
> ...





Works fine on the Onkyo DP-X1 and Dragonfly Red
Thanks for solving it


----------



## BenKatz

tarainfo said:


> Works fine on the Onkyo DP-X1 and Dragonfly Red
> Thanks for solving it



Is the Dragonfly Red really an upgrade over the Onkyo DP-X1 internals? they both have Sabre DACs. I was wondering. 

- Also, if it is, why not use the Dragonfly on your smartphone, since the Onkyo is basically rendered as a "music storage" device, and I bet most smartphones have a better/smoother interface.


----------



## LazerBear (May 19, 2017)

BenKatz said:


> I've had quite a long e-mail conversation with the Audioquest staff 2 days ago, and basically what they said is that it boils down to Android's USB drivers, on specific phones. They said that the issue is on Android's part, and it is kind of true since for example on an iPhone you don't have this issue. They also specified there's a big chance the drivers will be 100% compatible on Android O, as Google has been working with the likes of Sony and other audio manufacturers to make their phones more audiophile-friendly, and are aware of these issues. I
> 
> It is definitely software, but Android software related.



I am sorry but I call BS. I'm not saying their customer service is lying, they're probably honestly convinced of what they're saying. It might also very well be that as per their current implementation there's nothing that can be changed further (and please keep in mind that the Android volume issue is due to the default volume reported by the DF being too low.. which is something that *normally* can be fixed through firmware); but even if it is so, it just means that their original implementation was faulty: plenty of other dacs have no issue working perfectly with Android (with and without UAPP), and some of them aren't even advertised as a portable solution in the same way as the DF is.

Plus, as it has been pointed out, since it seems that UAPP can now provide a band-aid fix, Audioquest could very well provide a similar app to solve the issue IF they wanted to spend the money and resources. Instead they provide a "fix" which doesn't seem to fix much, which to me means that it was not tested properly. They also tell you that it depends on the specific device drivers, but give no clue as to which devices are supposed to be affected by this fix.... 

Companies sometimes screw up: it's unfortunate but understandable. What's not so understandable is the lack of transparency and (apparently) commitment from AQ as a company.


----------



## HonkyTonk

BenKatz said:


> Volume issue solved! (hack-ish) - using Xperia XZ - Dragonfly RED - UAPP installed (costs)
> 
> I just solved the volume issue - please try this:
> 
> ...



Thank you so much for posting your workaround! This issue has frustrated me since last year. (Google Pixel by the way.)


----------



## west0ne

Anyone know what the AQ Filter Driver Installer does?

Seems to have been installed on my PC at the same time as the firmware updater.


----------



## kmp14

LazerBear said:


> I am sorry but I call BS. I'm not saying their customer service is lying, they're probably honestly convinced of what they're saying. It might also very well be that as per their current implementation there's nothing that can be changed further (and please keep in mind that the Android volume issue is due to the default volume reported by the DF being too low.. which is something that *normally* can be fixed through firmware); but even if it is so, it just means that their original implementation was faulty: plenty of other dacs have no issue working perfectly with Android (with and without UAPP), and some of them aren't even advertised as a portable solution in the same way as the DF is.
> 
> Plus, as it has been pointed out, since it seems that UAPP can now provide a band-aid fix, Audioquest could very well provide a similar app to solve the issue IF they wanted to spend the money and resources. Instead they provide a "fix" which doesn't seem to fix much, which to me means that it was not tested properly. They also tell you that it depends on the specific device drivers, but give no clue as to which devices are supposed to be affected by this fix....
> 
> Companies sometimes screw up: it's unfortunate but understandable. What's not so understandable is the lack of transparency and (apparently) commitment from AQ as a company.



Said perfectly, I couldn't agree more.  Somehow the "magic" UAPP can fix the problem, but AQ can't?


----------



## Zirconn (May 19, 2017)

never mind


----------



## WoodyLuvr (May 19, 2017)

west0ne said:


> Anyone know what the AQ Filter Driver Installer does?
> 
> Seems to have been installed on my PC at the same time as the firmware updater.



I am curious as well!  Might you be the guinea pig @west0ne that @CactusPete23 and I have fervently hoped for???



WoodyLuvr said:


> ... ....What is the AQ Filter Driver Installer?  It downloaded with the AQ Desktop Manager program.





WoodyLuvr said:


> Anyone figure out the difference yet between AQ Device Manager and AQ Filter Driver Installer that came with the Windows 10/8 64-bit download?





CactusPete23 said:


> Don't know...   The AQ Filter Driver In staller has two buttons...  One to Install, and One to Uninstall.   However for me, it looks like only the Uninstall is highlighted to click.  And I do not dare to possibly Uninstall something from the DFR or my PC when it works fine...  So I am ignoring the filter driver installer for now..
> 
> Driver would normally be something for the PC to enable the DFR to be detected, etc....





WoodyLuvr said:


> LOL!  Exactly!  In the same boat, I don't dare to touch it!  We need to find a guinea pig to try it out and report back to us... Mikey... Mikey!  Where's Mikey?!


----------



## west0ne

LazerBear said:


> I am sorry but I call BS. I'm not saying their customer service is lying, they're probably honestly convinced of what they're saying. It might also very well be that as per their current implementation there's nothing that can be changed further (and please keep in mind that the Android volume issue is due to the default volume reported by the DF being too low.. which is something that *normally* can be fixed through firmware); but even if it is so, it just means that their original implementation was faulty: plenty of other dacs have no issue working perfectly with Android (with and without UAPP), and some of them aren't even advertised as a portable solution in the same way as the DF is.
> 
> Plus, as it has been pointed out, since it seems that UAPP can now provide a band-aid fix, Audioquest could very well provide a similar app to solve the issue IF they wanted to spend the money and resources. Instead they provide a "fix" which doesn't seem to fix much, which to me means that it was not tested properly. They also tell you that it depends on the specific device drivers, but give no clue as to which devices are supposed to be affected by this fix....
> 
> Companies sometimes screw up: it's unfortunate but understandable. What's not so understandable is the lack of transparency and (apparently) commitment from AQ as a company.



I am not going to defend AQ as I don't think they have done themselves any favours by advertising the DF devices as being mobile compatible knowing that they didn't work properly with Android devices and that they aren't MFi certified for iOS devices but the fact of the matter is that Android is not fully compliant with the USB audio standards and that is why the DF devices don't work properly with Android.

In a compliant OS the volume control keys would send volume control signals straight to the USB audio device but this doesn't happen with Android where the volume control is done at a software level even when a USB audio device is connected.

AQ could have easily set the default volume to 100%, this is normal for most USB audio devices that have a separate analogue volume pot but all of the volume on the DF devices is controlled internally. If the volume of the DF is set to 100% you get full volume range through the Android software but on more sensitive/low impedance headphones you get a lot of background hiss. If you control the volume using the DF internal volume control the hiss is gone so I suspect they set the default volume where they did to give the 'best' results with the widest range of headphones.

The latest update does seem to have changed the way in which the DF interacts with UAPP meaning that the hardware volume set in UAPP 'sticks' in the DF until it is unplugged so in theory I suppose AQ could develop and issue their own USB volume control app but it would still be a 'bodge' and with UAPP everytime you want to change the volume you have to stop playing audio in the other app you are using, this would be fine for an album where you can set a single volume level and leave it but of you are playing a mixed playlist you may find yourself changing volume regularly.

Finally don't forget that Android doesn't respect the Bit Depth or Samplerate of the audio being played either, this isn't just with the DF but is with all audio.

If a real fix is needed for USB audio it needs to be done by Android.


----------



## kundica

west0ne said:


> I am not going to defend AQ as I don't think they have done themselves any favours by advertising the DF devices as being mobile compatible knowing that they didn't work properly with Android devices and that they aren't MFi certified for iOS devices but the fact of the matter is that Android is not fully compliant with the USB audio standards and that is why the DF devices don't work properly with Android.
> 
> In a compliant OS the volume control keys would send volume control signals straight to the USB audio device but this doesn't happen with Android where the volume control is done at a software level even when a USB audio device is connected.
> 
> ...



Thanks for this info, it explains why I was getting two different volume adjustments.  It also explains why android seemed oblivious to the quality of content I played where as UAPP(with its USB driver) communicated to DFR correctly.


----------



## Wambo

I recently switched from an iPhone to the Samsung S8, very happy with the choice, but my DFR red was not.  So far the only audio I get when DFR is plugged into the phone it's off of my SD card/ UAPP interface.  I cannot get any audio from standard streaming apps like spotify / Google play, unless I remove DFR.

Is this the same volume issue this thread has been reporting all along, or is there an android setting I am missing to force audio through the usb driver?

I have not yet updated my DFR to 1.06, any help appreciated and thanks!


----------



## BenKatz

Wambo said:


> I recently switched from an iPhone to the Samsung S8, very happy with the choice, but my DFR red was not.  So far the only audio I get when DFR is plugged into the phone it's off of my SD card/ UAPP interface.  I cannot get any audio from standard streaming apps like spotify / Google play, unless I remove DFR.
> 
> Is this the same volume issue this thread has been reporting all along, or is there an android setting I am missing to force audio through the usb driver?
> 
> I have not yet updated my DFR to 1.06, any help appreciated and thanks!



Please try this:

Connect your Red to your device -> Open UAPP and play something -> set volume to the max and then stop (so you don't blow your ears/headphones) -> exit UAPP (close it by pressing "x" on the notification tray) -> open any music app (in my case Tidal and Sony's own music app) -> play.

I don't know what UAPP does, but basically, if you set the volume to the max, play a few secs, stop, completely exit UAPP, the volume output works (it's as if UAPP's usb drivers remain active) for anything on the device.


----------



## Rotten Apple

The problem with Android drivers not working should make owners of fragmented devices run for the hills at the sight of a Dragonfly. Despite the fact that purchasing one of these marvellous Audioquest devices may not work, very little due diligence is done by some consumers who then run here with their horror stories. Hello McFly??? Despite my handle, in this case Apple equates to good and Android is bad when purchasing a stick. Audioquest does not guarantee that its product will work with Android phones, it declares that it will work with "some." Truly I don't understand the weeping and gnashing of teeth when it comes to this product.


----------



## CycleMotion

I'm so frustrated with my DFB 1.5, it doesn't work with my iPhone SE because it stop working after minute or two with text saying accessorie is not supported by this phone, and it doesen't work with my Samsung Galaxy 4, all I hear is loud distorted noise.


----------



## Rotten Apple

CycleMotion said:


> I'm so frustrated with my DFB 1.5, it doesn't work with my iPhone SE because it stop working after minute or two with text saying accessorie is not supported by this phone, and it doesen't work with my Samsung Galaxy 4, all I hear is loud distorted noise.


"Rotten" Apple had a problem in the second to last release of their update that affected the iPhone SE and its audio drivers. Two or three days ago a new update came out that fixed that issue. If you didn't update it should fix the issue. If you did update and still have the problem do a hard reset and that should fix it. I use one of my old iPhones around the house - the 5s without problems.

All the best!


----------



## BenKatz

Rotten Apple said:


> The problem with Android drivers not working should make owners of fragmented devices run for the hills at the sight of a Dragonfly. Despite the fact that purchasing one of these marvellous Audioquest devices may not work, very little due diligence is done by some consumers who then run here with their horror stories. Hello McFly??? Despite my handle, in this case Apple equates to good and Android is bad when purchasing a stick. Audioquest does not guarantee that its product will work with Android phones, it declares that it will work with "some." Truly I don't understand the weeping and gnashing of teeth when it comes to this product.



Well it's rather simple: 

a) Audioquest marketed the hell out of their new Dragonflies boosting that they're smarpthone comaptible (not Apple, smartphone, which means also 99% of other non Apple smartphones)

b) Virtually any other previous DAC that I owned and tested worked with my Xperia XZ with no issues whatsoever - the issue is with the way the Audioquest communicates its volume steps to Android - which can actually be easily fixed with an app called USB AUDIO PLAYER PRO. 

So I don't get how Apple = good and Android = bad when purchasing a "stick" . What does that mean? If by stick you mean DAC - nope - (besides the Audioquest Dragonfly volume reading issue - fixed easily with an app - and most probably fixed in the future with Android O which promised updated USB drivers for DAC usage) - as i've said, any Fiio, Oppo, Sony, etc DACs work flawlessly. 

The newest versions of Android (Sony Xperia XZ in my case - can't speak for other devices) also has a marvelous sound coming straight out of the audio jack - I really love how my XZ sounds (though obviously not at a Dragonfly level) - and as from my experience (anyone who has done this A/B test could back me up) it sounds hands down better as far as separation, dynamic, and bass extension goes than through that 3.5mm jack that Apple sells with their new iPhones, I could say the same thing - when it comes to stand alone audio, Apple really = bad, and (some) Android (Sony) = very good.


----------



## navydragon

Just for fun, listening to MQA tracks on my DP X1 to DF Red. It detects and renders the MQA file.


----------



## BenKatz

navydragon said:


> Just for fun, listening to MQA tracks on my DP X1 to DF Red. It detects and renders the MQA file.



Nice setup! But I'd suggest your setup would benefit from a short Micro USB to USB cable like this one :

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Micro-USB-C...739927?hash=item2334072957:g:0ogAAOxy4dNSu2ya

Really cheap and you won't need that micro USB - USB adapter, thus making your setup even more streamlined, light and portable-friendly


----------



## SpiderNhan

What OTG cable is that? It's gorgeous!


----------



## navydragon

I have a number of those, but i prefer to use this cable as it is more soft and manageable, that's why i bought a micro to female A adapter for it. Lol



BenKatz said:


> Nice setup! But I'd suggest your setup would benefit from a short Micro USB to USB cable like this one :
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Micro-USB-C...739927?hash=item2334072957:g:0ogAAOxy4dNSu2ya
> 
> Really cheap and you won't need that micro USB - USB adapter, thus making your setup even more streamlined, light and portable-friendly





BenKatz said:


> Nice setup! But I'd suggest your setup would benefit from a short Micro USB to USB cable like this one :
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Micro-USB-C...739927?hash=item2334072957:g:0ogAAOxy4dNSu2ya
> 
> Really cheap and you won't need that micro USB - USB adapter, thus making your setup even more streamlined, light and portable-friendly


----------



## navydragon

A custom copper micro to micro otg with the micro to female A adapter.



SpiderNhan said:


> What OTG cable is that? It's gorgeous!


----------



## Rotten Apple (May 20, 2017)

BenKatz said:


> Well it's rather simple:
> 
> a) Audioquest marketed the hell out of their new Dragonflies boosting that they're smarpthone comaptible (not Apple, smartphone, which means also 99% of other non Apple smartphones)
> 
> ...




This is not an Apple vs Android post. This is simply an observation of what Audioquest has done when releasing its Red and Black DACs which resemble "USB sticks." We use these sticks in North America. Audioquest made it easy for Apple to use its CCK to use most DACs readily usable. I use the Dragonfly Red on the road and the Mojo Chord when mobile around the house. If it is your belief that "Audioquest marketed the hell out of their new Dragonflies boosting (sic) that they're smarpthone (sic) comaptible (sic) then I would take it up with them. I have been reading Head-Fi for years and knew before purchasing that it would likely not work  with my LG G5.

You state that the Dragonfly volume issue can easily be fixed with an app but then go on to say that issues will probably fixed when Android O comes out. Good luck with your stated 99% of other than Apple phones miraculously supporting Android O. Finally you bash the sound that comes directly from an Apple phone vs a Sony Xperia XZ. The purpose of this section is to comment on the Dragonfly which bypasses the phones' DAC.

The bottom line from where I see it is that those with Apple phones will have a good experience. For android, most likely Audioquest will come out with some sort of list of phones which they will support with updates. It won't be a standard per say, but at least something that let's the consumer know where they stand with respect to compatibility. If you own an Android phone it would wise to research whether the Dragonfly is right for you now, not in a future wonderland  of maybes. Buyer beware.


----------



## west0ne

Rotten Apple said:


> The problem with Android drivers not working should make owners of fragmented devices run for the hills at the sight of a Dragonfly. Despite the fact that purchasing one of these marvellous Audioquest devices may not work, very little due diligence is done by some consumers who then run here with their horror stories. Hello McFly??? Despite my handle, in this case Apple equates to good and Android is bad when purchasing a stick. Audioquest does not guarantee that its product will work with Android phones, it declares that it will work with "some." Truly I don't understand the weeping and gnashing of teeth when it comes to this product.



The saving grace for Android/DF combo is that the main reason for using it is to play back your hi-res audio files in bitperfect format, this is where UAPP comes into its own as it allows for true bitperfect audio. If you are using a modern, high-end Android phone with streaming services or lossy audio files then an external audio solution may not actually provide a significant enough enhancement to be worthwhile (notwithstanding the need for more power which will be headphone dependant).

As I understand it with iOS devices a separate app is required to play hi-res audio with an external DAC so in purely practical terms it isn't really that different, although of course external DACs when used with iOS do function correctly.

When I first bought my Dragonfly I used it all the time with streaming services, now I tend to only really plug it in when I listen to hi-res audio or ripped FLAC audio, for streaming it is direct from the smartphone itself. I think I would take the same stance with iOS devices as well.

When used with Windows/Linux and set to maximum feeding into a separate amp the DFB is actually a pretty good device and makes for a reasonably cheap DAC.

I think I would only recommend the DF devices for use with Android to people who knew that they only really wanted to use their device as a transport for FLAC and/or hi-res files and would make it clear that UAPP or one of the other apps that can properly handle USB audio is needed.

For early adopters the DF devices were being sold as being smartphone compatible so it was reasonable for buyers to expect that they would work properly with Android. Anyone buying now should hopefully know where they stand.


----------



## BenKatz

navydragon said:


> I have a number of those, but i prefer to use this cable as it is more soft and manageable, that's why i bought a micro to female A adapter for it. Lol



Maybe you'll like this one? Has a flat usb cable, seems manageable :

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ugreen-Micr...hash=item25cc75bc89:m:m0fne5nxuKrxcX3cYFxiv1g


----------



## BenKatz

Rotten Apple said:


> This is not an Apple vs Android post. This is simply an observation of what Audioquest has done when releasing its Red and Black DACs which resemble "USB sticks." We use these sticks in North America. Audioquest made it easy for Apple to use its CCK to use most DACs readily usable. I use the Dragonfly Red on the road and the Mojo Chord when mobile around the house. If it is your belief that "Audioquest marketed the hell out of their new Dragonflies boosting (sic) that they're smarpthone (sic) comaptible (sic) then I would take it up with them. I have been reading Head-Fi for years and knew before purchasing that it would likely not work  with my LG G5.
> 
> You state that the Dragonfly volume issue can easily be fixed with an app but then go on to say that issues will probably fixed when Android O comes out. Good luck with your stated 99% of other than Apple phones miraculously supporting Android O. Finally you bash the sound that comes directly from an Apple phone vs a Sony Xperia XZ. The purpose of this section is to comment on the Dragonfly which bypasses the phones' DAC.
> 
> The bottom line from where I see it is that those with Apple phones will have a good experience. For android, most likely Audioquest will come out with some sort of list of phones which they will support with updates. It won't be a standard per say, but at least something that let's the consumer know where they stand with respect to compatibility. If you own an Android phone it would wise to research whether the Dragonfly is right for you now, not in a future wonderland  of maybes. Buyer beware.



Firstly it would be wise for you to read my comment correctly. I did not state anywhere that 99% of smartphones will support Android O. I have no idea where you came up with that from.

Secondly, Android O is going to be the next software update to Android, all current and future flagships (at the very least) will support it. And please, enlighten me, what is so hard to comprehend from what i said about UAPP and Android O? I don't get that "but". It seems really easy and comprehensible: Android O will have updated USB drivers, which will make them more compatible with USB DACs - case and point - the Dragonfly Red/Black - the ONLY portable devices I know of that do not play nicely with Android.
Util then, I randomly find out the UAPP actually fixes the Android - Dragonfly volume reading issue globally - not just through the app. I've had a few friends using UAPP and they had no idea that it actually does that - they were only using the Dragonflies through UAPP - which deprived them from, for instance, offline Tidal music - which is sort of a must for portable use.

As far as Sony vs Apple - I merely paralleled what you said - Android - BAD, Apple- GOOD. I just found it completely pointless and beyond the point for you to state that, even more so when you refereed to sticks - yeah, there are a bunch of sticks from Fiio and Tangent, without physical volume control, which play perfectly with Android - so that was a null point on your behalf.

As far as you pointing out my typos - well I wont go that low - but I know there are a lot of trolls and quasi Trolls out there that act in such an uncivilized way on forums such as these, unfortunately. Also, fyi, not everyone in the world has English as their mother tongue, so maybe if it's not too much, pretty please tolerate us non English people.


----------



## navydragon

BenKatz said:


> Maybe you'll like this one? Has a flat usb cable, seems manageable :
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ugreen-Micr...hash=item25cc75bc89:m:m0fne5nxuKrxcX3cYFxiv1g




You mean this one? Yeah i also have that. Lol


----------



## jegnyc (May 20, 2017)

CycleMotion said:


> I'm so frustrated with my DFB 1.5, it doesn't work with my iPhone SE because it stop working after minute or two with text saying accessorie is not supported by this phone, and it doesen't work with my Samsung Galaxy 4, all I hear is loud distorted noise.





Rotten Apple said:


> "Rotten" Apple had a problem in the second to last release of their update that affected the iPhone SE and its audio drivers. Two or three days ago a new update came out that fixed that issue. If you didn't update it should fix the issue. If you did update and still have the problem do a hard reset and that should fix it. I use one of my old iPhones around the house - the 5s without problems.
> 
> All the best!


I think it would be more accurate to say that the most recent iOS update has worked for some peope, less well or not at all for others.

https://www.head-fi.org/f/search/183002/?q=10.3.2&o=relevance&c[date]=1494820800

https://discussions.apple.com/message/31771455?ac_cid=tw123456#31771455

Can't speak for myself as I never updated to 10.3


----------



## west0ne (May 20, 2017)

@BenKatz - The UAPP fix only seems to have come about since the recent firmware update to the DF devices. Prior to the update UAPP used to 'grab' the DF and the only way to reliably get audio back was to unplug and reconnect the DF. Now this could also be down to a change/update in UAPP so it's hard to isolate how this has happened. Hopefully, for those on non-rooted devices, future updates to UAPP won't break this fix.

Given the performance we have seen from AQ thus far I somehow doubt that this fix was in any way intentional and has come about as a result of luck over design.

I would also point out that none of the other USB audio devices/sticks actually work properly with Android, they merely default their volume to 100% and then let the Android deal with volume in software, proper functionality would see the volume being dealt with at a hardware level in the external device, controlled by the volume buttons.


----------



## BenKatz

navydragon said:


> You mean this one? Yeah i also have that. Lol



I'm searching for something similar but with a usb TYPE C end. I found a long-ish stiff cable which i'm using for now, but i'm finding it really hard to find a really short one with a malleable cable.


----------



## BenKatz

west0ne said:


> @BenKatz - The UAPP fix only seems to have come about since the recent firmware update to the DF devices. Prior to the update UAPP used to 'grab' the DF and the only way to reliably get audio back was to unplug and reconnect the DF. Now this could also be down to a change/update in UAPP so it's hard to isolate how this has happened. Hopefully, for those on non-rooted devices, future updates to UAPP won't break this fix.
> 
> Given the performance we have seen from AQ thus far I somehow doubt that this fix was in any way intentional and has come about as a result of luck over design.
> 
> I would also point out that none of the other USB audio devices/sticks actually work properly with Android, they merely default their volume to 100% and then let the Android deal with volume in software, proper functionality would see the volume being dealt with at a hardware level in the external device, controlled by the volume buttons.



Interesting. I've only come around this UAPP "hack" or exploit after the 1.06 DfR update. Didn't even try UAPP before that. So who knows.

As you said, hopefully they don't break it through an update. Also, hopefully Android O comes sooner, at least for Sony devices )) .


----------



## neogeosnk

I just get a green light using lightning kit/dragonfly black iPhone 6.  Listening to Tidal Masters no change color or indicator that it's decoding in hardware.


----------



## 435279

neogeosnk said:


> I just get a green light using lightning kit/dragonfly black iPhone 6.  Listening to Tidal Masters no change color or indicator that it's decoding in hardware.


There is no mobile support for Tidal Masters at the moment, you must use a Macbook or PC, or a tablet running something like Windows 10


----------



## nicholars (May 20, 2017)

Why does the dragonfly black have more noise with IE80 than the headphone out on the galaxy S7? isn't it supposed to have a better SNR than the phone output? I am confused as to why this has background hiss / noise, its not even very bad when using bitperfect, but either way, why does the DF black, have more background noise, than the galaxy S7 headphone out, if it is supposed to be an upgrade?

I am not saying the DFB sounds bad, but why does it have more background noise / hiss... than the samsung S7 3.5mm which the DFB is supposed to be an upgrade... doesn't having more background noise mean that the DFB has a worse SNR than the S7 output? It does sound better than the S7 output, but why the hissing.


----------



## kundica

nicholars said:


> Why does the dragonfly black have more noise with IE80 than the headphone out on the galaxy S7?


Output impedance and the sensitivity of IEMs.


----------



## Wambo

Thanks Ben,

Gave that a try and cannot terminate UAPP, when I close it directly or with Close Apps option, it continues to run in the background.   So even if I launch Google Play or other services, UAPP continues to stream via USB.   Other thoughts?


----------



## nicholars

kundica said:


> Output impedance and the sensitivity of IEMs.



What is the output impedance of the DFB and S7 do you know?


----------



## kundica

nicholars said:


> What is the output impedance of the DFB and S7 do you know?


I might be wrong, but I thought DFB was .65 ohm. I have no idea about the phone.  It might also have something to do with the way volume is handled via the OS. Perhaps someone way more knowledgeable than me can chime in with feedback.


----------



## nicholars (May 20, 2017)

The DFB  does go EXTREMELY LOUD with the I80. anything over about 40% is too loud to listen to, and at normal volumes there is not much hissing using bitperfect, but just confused as to why the DFB has some background noise and the S7 doesn't... the DFB does definitely sound better than the S7, but not sure if its normal or worth getting a replacement DFB, some other people say there is background noise with some headphones, others say it is completely silent, so I don't know.


----------



## CactusPete23

nicholars said:


> Why does the dragonfly black have more noise with IE80 than the headphone out on the galaxy S7? isn't it supposed to have a better SNR than the phone output? I am confused as to why this has background hiss / noise, its not even very bad when using bitperfect, but either way, why does the DF black, have more background noise, than the galaxy S7 headphone out, if it is supposed to be an upgrade?
> 
> I am not saying the DFB sounds bad, but why does it have more background noise / hiss... than the samsung S7 3.5mm which the DFB is supposed to be an upgrade... doesn't having more background noise mean that the DFB has a worse SNR than the S7 output? It does sound better than the S7 output, but why the hissing.




Hi, I have what may be a silly question.  What are you doing to detect the hiss/background noise?  I mean like :  No audio playing, but volume set to max level?  Or you hear the hiss at normal listening levels during blank passages between songs?  Or something else ?                                       

I'm not sure the DFB has "better Signal to noise level"  than the S7.  Also depends if you have exynos or snapdragon version of the S7..   But the better DAC/Amp should give better resolution/clarity of the music.   Also If you're checking for hiss at max volume level, the DFB might be louder than your phone at it's max level, and this would let you hear the relatively increased "noise/hiss" with a stronger signal

I'm definitely not an expert, so you/others can correct me !       I have DFR, and low impedance IEMs and don't hear any hiss. 

 BUT I do hear a "ground hum" on my PC when using the DFR and a pair of Scosche (iem856md) IEMs.  Those have a Microphone in them and are the only iem that has any noise with the DFR.  If I touch my Laptop, (I suppose breaking the ground?), the hum goes away...  Also get this with another laptop, so probably not computer specific, but some hum coming from the PC through the DFR   So this hum problem is not an actual DFR issue in my mind....


----------



## Butter123

I just got the dragonfly black 1.5 and is very impressed with the sq with both my laptop and iphone. So far I haven't really notice any annoying pop and crack sound from using the standard lightning to usb camera adapter. (the usb 3 camera adaper is too big for portable use). My questions are: since the red produce more output, the regular 2.0 camera adapter will cause issues more often? Is there a large sq difference between the black and the red version as I am very happy with the black 1.5 with a westone um2. Lastly, on the audioquest website, it stated that the usb 3 camera adapter produces better sound. Is that true and how much better?


----------



## endgame

Butter123 said:


> I just got the dragonfly black 1.5 and is very impressed with the sq with both my laptop and iphone. So far I haven't really notice any annoying pop and crack sound from using the standard lightning to usb camera adapter. (the usb 3 camera adaper is too big for portable use). My questions are: since the red produce more output, the regular 2.0 camera adapter will cause issues more often? Is there a large sq difference between the black and the red version as I am very happy with the black 1.5 with a westone um2. Lastly, on the audioquest website, it stated that the usb 3 camera adapter produces better sound. Is that true and how much better?



I only have the dragonfly red so I can't comment on the black, but the USB 3 camera adapter definitely sounds better than the 2. I did a back and forth for several minutes and preferred the 3 with every track I listened to.


----------



## nicholars (May 21, 2017)

CactusPete23 said:


> Hi, I have what may be a silly question.  What are you doing to detect the hiss/background noise?  I mean like :  No audio playing, but volume set to max level?  Or you hear the hiss at normal listening levels during blank passages between songs?  Or something else ?
> 
> I'm not sure the DFB has "better Signal to noise level"  than the S7.  Also depends if you have exynos or snapdragon version of the S7..   But the better DAC/Amp should give better resolution/clarity of the music.   Also If you're checking for hiss at max volume level, the DFB might be louder than your phone at it's max level, and this would let you hear the relatively increased "noise/hiss" with a stronger signal
> 
> ...



When I plug the dragonfly into the phone, there is a moderate hissing through IE80, when UAPP connects to dac as bitperfect, the hissing is quieter, it is not a massive problem, it is just annoying as I was expecting it to be silent like I read in reviews, not sure if a replacement would be better, or if it would be the same... at low volume with music paused, there is a slight hiss noise, at higher volumes it gets louder, but still not very loud when bitperfect, when not bitperfect it is definitely louder hissing than I would expect from this product, in bitperfect it is not very bad,  but it is not silent or "black" like I read in the reviews... it has more hissing than the S7 output, whic has no noise... but yes the DFB does sound better than S7 when music is playing, I would be happier with it if there was no hissing though... not sure if there is any point in getting a replacement?


----------



## CycleMotion

Rotten Apple said:


> "Rotten" Apple had a problem in the second to last release of their update that affected the iPhone SE and its audio drivers. Two or three days ago a new update came out that fixed that issue. If you didn't update it should fix the issue. If you did update and still have the problem do a hard reset and that should fix it. I use one of my old iPhones around the house - the 5s without problems.
> 
> All the best!



Thank you for this information but nothing worked...maybe I need certificated cable


----------



## BenKatz

Wambo said:


> Thanks Ben,
> 
> Gave that a try and cannot terminate UAPP, when I close it directly or with Close Apps option, it continues to run in the background.   So even if I launch Google Play or other services, UAPP continues to stream via USB.   Other thoughts?



Well, after opening UAPP, discovering the Dragonfly, setting the in-app volume to the max, you need to close UAPP by frist closing all apps, then closing it from the notification bar - there should be an X on the right side - only after closing it from the notification tray is it really closed and is no longer using the Dragonfly in exclusive mode.


----------



## scottyb06

I'm enjoying Tidal's MQA files now that I've updated my Dragonfly Black. In the past I've been able to scroll through all MQA albums on my MacBook, however, as of a few days ago I am only able to scroll up to the "M's" in the alphabetical listing. Am I doing something wrong? Of course, I can still enter a given band into the search field but I'd also like to explore new music. Am I doing something wrong?


----------



## jegnyc

scottyb06 said:


> I'm enjoying Tidal's MQA files now that I've updated my Dragonfly Black. In the past I've been able to scroll through all MQA albums on my MacBook, however, as of a few days ago I am only able to scroll up to the "M's" in the alphabetical listing. Am I doing something wrong? Of course, I can still enter a given band into the search field but I'd also like to explore new music. Am I doing something wrong?


Nope.  I posted a question to Tidal on this.  The number of MQA titles has grown to the point that it doesn't return the entire list.  They claim they are working on it.  For the moment the suggestion is to search for artists, albums etc. and note whether an 'M' is displayed next to the title.


----------



## WarrenR (May 22, 2017)

Hi.

Is anyone using the black with Neutron music player via Android OTG?  When I try to play music at 44.1khz I get awful digital distortion (think Aphex Twin mash up!) over the music for about 5 seconds every couple of minutes or so.  When I run at 48khz it seems better.

My phone is a P9 Lite and I have modded it to get OTG working.  I need to play around with the settings on the phone and report back.


----------



## kundica

WarrenR said:


> Hi.
> 
> Is anyone using the black with Neutron music player via Android OTG  When I try to play music at 44.1khz I get awful digital distortion (think Aphex Twin mash up!) over the music for about 5 seconds every couple of minutes or so.  When I run at 48khz it seems better.
> 
> My phone is a P9 Lite and I have modded it to get OTG working.  I need to play around with the settings on the phone and report back.


I have the DFR and get awful distortion if I change the volume too fast.


----------



## WarrenR (May 22, 2017)

kundica said:


> I have the DFR and get awful distortion if I change the volume too fast.



Hi.

This is not just distortion it's mental digital trash all over the sound.  It happens when I'm just listening to tracks.

What phone do you have?


----------



## kundica

WarrenR said:


> Hi.
> 
> This is not just distortion it's mental digital trash all over the sound.  It happens when I'm just listening to tracks.
> 
> What phone do you have?


It mostly happens out of my PC, but it's happened once or twice with my OnePlus 3T.


----------



## georgelai57

Not to tempt fate, but after the FW update, my DFR off a USB2 CCK doesn't seem to have that occasional faint pops and clicks problem. Ok it's been only half an hour since I started listening so who knows?

Anyway that's why I also have the USB3 CCK


----------



## WarrenR

Cool.  I didn't know you could update the FW.


----------



## spacecowboyz

Anyone tried either Dragonfly RED or BLACK with LZ-A4 IEMs ?
How is the synergy on either ?!


----------



## SpiderNhan




----------



## Devodonaldson

SpiderNhan said:


>



The reviewer made a BIG mistake. He calls the dragonflys decoders, on multiple occasions. Oh, how I wish that was true. Alas, the dragonflys are only renderers, otherwise, UAPP would be even more amazing, seeing as it allows MQA playback


----------



## ctbarker32

I am trying to get my updated AQ Dragonfly Red working with Foobar on Windows. I am using the WASAPI driver and turned off all DSPs, etc. I have download MQA files from 2L and David Elias. When playing normal FLAC files the DR light changes to the correct color depending on the bit rate. When playing the FLAC MQA files the light does not change to the expected Purple color indicating MQA?

Has anyone gotten a Windows local software player working with MQA files and DR?

Thanks.

-CB


----------



## zolom

My short OTG cables used to connect my phone with the DFR keep breking (due to being bent while in and out of my pocket).
Can someone recommend a resilient short OTG cable (with right L shape micro USB connector and a female USB A connector)?

Thanks


----------



## SpiderNhan

Not available on Amazon US, but I got these after 2-3 weeks from the order date and they work wonderfully.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01LEX5XTE/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


----------



## kundica (May 27, 2017)

Devodonaldson said:


> The reviewer made a BIG mistake. He calls the dragonflys decoders, on multiple occasions. Oh, how I wish that was true. Alas, the dragonflys are only renderers, otherwise, UAPP would be even more amazing, seeing as it allows MQA playback


He even argues with some people in the comments. It's strange because he's usually on point.



ctbarker32 said:


> I am trying to get my updated AQ Dragonfly Red working with Foobar on Windows. I am using the WASAPI driver and turned off all DSPs, etc. I have download MQA files from 2L and David Elias. When playing normal FLAC files the DR light changes to the correct color depending on the bit rate. When playing the FLAC MQA files the light does not change to the expected Purple color indicating MQA?
> 
> Has anyone gotten a Windows local software player working with MQA files and DR?


That's because it's not a full decoder, but a renderer. AFAIK it needs to be used with an app that does the first unfolding, like Tidal.


----------



## Devodonaldson

So, I'm a bit confused now. What color is the drf supposed to display when properly working with Tidal MQA? Not like I'm that good with colors yo be honest. Pass through is not checked. I select a Master file, and it lights ip the same pink? As it does when playing a 96khz file?


----------



## WoodyLuvr

Devodonaldson said:


> So, I'm a bit confused now. What color is the drf supposed to display when properly working with Tidal MQA? Not like I'm that good with colors yo be honest. Pass through is not checked. I select a Master file, and it lights ip the same pink? As it does when playing a 96khz file?


MQA = Pink


----------



## WoodyLuvr

FYI:  Still haven't experienced any loss of sound since I moved the JitterBug to before the USB Hub in my chain  



WoodyLuvr said:


> Still no sound loss hiccups since the slight change in the placement of the JitterBug in my audio signal path:
> 
> _PC > AQ JitterBug > UGREEN USB Hub > AQ DragonFly Black > Headphones_​


----------



## kundica

Devodonaldson said:


> So, I'm a bit confused now. What color is the drf supposed to display when properly working with Tidal MQA? Not like I'm that good with colors yo be honest. Pass through is not checked. I select a Master file, and it lights ip the same pink? As it does when playing a 96khz file?


It's supposed to be purple, but what it ends up looking like is a darker pink. You can see the difference if you trigger the Dragonfly with at 96 file then play a Master file in Tidal.


----------



## WoodyLuvr

kundica said:


> It's supposed to be purple, but what it ends up looking like is a darker pink. You can see the difference if you trigger the Dragonfly with at 96 file then play a Master file in Tidal.


Yeah, mine looks more bright pink than purple but definitely different than the 96 kHz light pink.


----------



## bmoregnr

Does this firmware update do anything other than add MQA?  I just use DFB out of iPhone 7 with cck3 which is working great and feel I should leave well enough alone.


----------



## 435279

bmoregnr said:


> Does this firmware update do anything other than add MQA?  I just use DFB out of iPhone 7 with cck3 which is working great and feel I should leave well enough alone.



It depends what version you currently have, but if you are happy with it, then don't upgrade.

1.01 = release version
1.03 = Android volume fix (not relevant for Apple devices)
1.06 = MQA release


----------



## Aaden

Hi everyone! Been doing a lot of searching and reading and have learned a LOT from this forum, so thanks for that for starters.  

Now to my (i'm sure noob) question/issue.  I'm using an iPhone 6 Plus with a  DFR connected via the USB 3 to Camera adapter that has been most recently recommended.  I read here that somewhere on here that the VLC player is one of the apps of choice for playing 96/24 flac files.  So... I downloaded a copy of Beethoven's 9th in 96/24 FLAC and have been trying to play it... my DFR continues to only show green light.  

Is something wrong with my setup? Do I need to use a different app?

Thanks for your help!


----------



## CactusPete23 (May 28, 2017)

Aaden said:


> Hi everyone! Been doing a lot of searching and reading and have learned a LOT from this forum, so thanks for that for starters.
> 
> Now to my (i'm sure noob) question/issue.  I'm using an iPhone 6 Plus with a  DFR connected via the USB 3 to Camera adapter that has been most recently recommended.  I read here that somewhere on here that the VLC player is one of the apps of choice for playing 96/24 flac files.  So... I downloaded a copy of Beethoven's 9th in 96/24 FLAC and have been trying to play it... my DFR continues to only show green light.
> 
> ...


MY understanding is that VLC may not do what you want.   Onkyo’s HF Player is supposed to support all the bit rates that the DFR handles...     Think there is another one that ios folks are using, but I'm not an iphone owner.  hope that helps some.


----------



## Herman

Yes, Onkyo HF player. I use it with iphone 6s and DFR for hi-res. Supports higher bitrates.


----------



## Aaden

Thanks guys! I'll try that today.


----------



## istrikerx

I've tried 2 Apple USB3 CCK with my 7 Plus, incase the first was faulty, but no luck.

The problem is that after 30 seconds or so of music playback with a DragonFly Black USB DAC attached, the audio will cut out, but the DAC will display that there is still power and that it is processing. The Apple Music app will also continue to display that the song is still playing. Just no audio.

Searched many online forums, including a 100-odd page thread based solely on the DFB/R DAC itself with no other similar issues cropping up.

The supplied lightning to jack adapter provided by apple works fine, no cutouts, and I'm not using high impedance cans or anything like that. Returning the DFB and using the provided adapter isn't a solution either as the sound quality is trash.

Restarting the phone hasn't changed anything either. The DFB works completely fine with my MBA too.

Does anyone have any suggestions? My last resort would be to factory reset with iTunes and NOT restore from any backups.


----------



## jegnyc

istrikerx said:


> I've tried 2 Apple USB3 CCK with my 7 Plus, incase the first was faulty, but no luck.
> 
> The problem is that after 30 seconds or so of music playback with a DragonFly Black USB DAC attached, the audio will cut out, but the DAC will display that there is still power and that it is processing. The Apple Music app will also continue to display that the song is still playing. Just no audio.
> 
> ...



Are you using iOS 10.3.x? If so, join the club.  

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/7932507?start=0&tstart=0

Many reports of this problem with a range of DACs on this forum.


----------



## istrikerx

jegnyc said:


> Are you using iOS 10.3.x? If so, join the club.
> 
> https://discussions.apple.com/thread/7932507?start=0&tstart=0
> 
> Many reports of this problem with a range of DACs on this forum.



Ah wow, couldn't find that thread even after hours of searching. Thank you. And yes I'm on 10.3.2, just upgraded from 10.3.1.

So it's existed through 2 iOS revisions now, with 10.3.3 around the corner, not holding my breath for a fix anytime soon :/ Probably a "feature" of iOS 11...


----------



## CactusPete23

istrikerx said:


> Ah wow, couldn't find that thread even after hours of searching. Thank you. And yes I'm on 10.3.2, just upgraded from 10.3.1.
> 
> So it's existed through 2 iOS revisions now, with 10.3.3 around the corner, not holding my breath for a fix anytime soon :/ Probably a "feature" of iOS 11...



So everyone using 10.3.2 Can't use their DFR or DFB?  Is it really that bad?


----------



## istrikerx

*duplicate post*


----------



## istrikerx

CactusPete23 said:


> So everyone using 10.3.2 Can't use their DFR or DFB?  Is it really that bad?



It appears to not be limited to just DFB/R, but many other DAC/AMPs like the HA2 and Mojo.


----------



## jegnyc

CactusPete23 said:


> So everyone using 10.3.2 Can't use their DFR or DFB?  Is it really that bad?



Reading through various threads it seems as though 10.3.2 eliminated and/or mitigated the problem for some users.  It also seems that the more services you turn off while listening (WiFi/cellular/maybe location and bluetooth) the less likely you are to have the problem.

I'm fortunate enough to have seen reports before I moved off 10.2.


----------



## jegnyc

istrikerx said:


> Ah wow, couldn't find that thread even after hours of searching. Thank you. And yes I'm on 10.3.2, just upgraded from 10.3.1.
> 
> So it's existed through 2 iOS revisions now, with 10.3.3 around the corner, not holding my breath for a fix anytime soon :/ Probably a "feature" of iOS 11...


Might I suggest that you express your feelings on the Apple forum?


----------



## istrikerx

jegnyc said:


> Reading through various threads it seems as though 10.3.2 eliminated and/or mitigated the problem for some users.  It also seems that the more services you turn off while listening (WiFi/cellular/maybe location and bluetooth) the less likely you are to have the problem.
> 
> I'm fortunate enough to have seen reports before I moved off 10.2.



I use all of those features regularly sadly, but luckily I'm always near my MBA when listening to music. Just sucks for listening when out.


----------



## istrikerx

jegnyc said:


> Might I suggest that you express your feelings on the Apple forum?



I'll be sure to do that now


----------



## endgame

I have an iPhone 7 Plus and have the latest iOS 10.3.2 and have no problems with my Dragonfly Red. I use the CCK 3 Camera Adapter with my headphones.


----------



## jegnyc

endgame said:


> I have an iPhone 7 Plus and have the latest iOS 10.3.2 and have no problems with my Dragonfly Red. I use the CCK 3 Camera Adapter with my headphones.


Which makes you one of the fortunate ones.  Out of curiosity, what services are you running while you listen?


----------



## endgame

jegnyc said:


> Which makes you one of the fortunate ones.  Out of curiosity, what services are you running while you listen?




I've never really taken an inventory of what I run concurrently, but I've never had to turn off or disable any services to achieve better fidelity. However, the CCK 2 does give random pops and clicks, so I never use it anymore.


----------



## jegnyc

endgame said:


> I've never really taken an inventory of what I run concurrently, but I've never had to turn off or disable any services to achieve better fidelity. However, the CCK 2 does give random pops and clicks, so I never use it anymore.


I had that problem with the CCK 2 and one of the four iDevices I tested.  Interestingly, for me, that problem was substantially mitigated (almost eliminated) when I moved to iOS 10.2.


----------



## Thor71

Hi Guys!
I'm a newbie here and after reading the entire thread I've decided to buy a DFB.
I mainly use it with my iPhone 6s and I've found what I think it's a good combo in terms of SQ:

iPhone 6s>CCK USB 3>DFB>Forza Metallo 

I listen to music 99% through Spotify and I'm also waiting to receive a pair of Noble X so my question here is if DFB will drive those iem's properly or if you suggest to evaluate also the DFR  (that for what I've understood it should be considered especially when paired with headphones).
Thanks in advance & greetings from Italy 
Mauro


----------



## TrantaLocked (May 31, 2017)

Whelperino, I've now tried the Dragonfly v1.2. Compared to the X-Fi Go! Pro, the primary discernible differences are lack of the background fluttering and higher dynamic range. Otherwise, frequency response and dynamics are quite similar. In comparison to the Soundblaster E1, the DF v1.2 has a slightly wider sound stage and is brighter. So, pretty much DF v1.2 > X-Fi Go! Pro > Soundblaster E1.

Fiio K1 and Audioengine D3 incoming soon. I'll update once I test them.


----------



## TinyTempo

Hey guys, I have a problem with my new Red on my iPhone 7. I connect it via the Apple USB 2 Camera kit, and listening to both Spotify (320 kb) and Tidal (CD quality) gives me random crackling noises sometimes. These cracks sound like distortions and sometimes happen once per minute, sometimes three times in 10 seconds, and they are all over the stereo field at random volumes. Turning down the iPhone's volume does not help. The Red works fine on my MacBook, no issues there using Spotify / Tiday / Audirvana.

Any idea?


----------



## Thor71

TinyTempo said:


> Hey guys, I have a problem with my new Red on my iPhone 7. I connect it via the Apple USB 2 Camera kit, and listening to both Spotify (320 kb) and Tidal (CD quality) gives me random crackling noises sometimes. These cracks sound like distortions and sometimes happen once per minute, sometimes three times in 10 seconds, and they are all over the stereo field at random volumes. Turning down the iPhone's volume does not help. The Red works fine on my MacBook, no issues there using Spotify / Tiday / Audirvana.
> 
> Any idea?


you have to switch to CCK USB 3, I had the same issue with the old CCK


----------



## TinyTempo

Thor71 said:


> you have to switch to CCK USB 3, I had the same issue with the old CCK



That's a bummer. Thanks for the info!


----------



## Samadroid

Has anyone in the forum had the chance to try 'Android O' and verified whether there's any improvement with Usb Audio and DACs in general?


----------



## FlyingTrotter

So is the advice if seeking to use an IPhone 6 as the source to defer buying a DAC until this issue is addressed by Apple - seems from the many threads on the IOS 10.3 threads that all comparable portable DACs are suffering in similar ways

Was about to dive in to buying a system but the issue has caused me to question the timing and make me think I should perhaps defer - what do folk think


----------



## Wambo

Transitioned from iphone to android / nougat and confirmed volume does not work unless an app like UAPP its installed.  So no streaming apps.


----------



## Devodonaldson

Wambo said:


> Transitioned from iphone to android / nougat and confirmed volume does not work unless an app like UAPP its installed.  So no streaming apps.


You are correct regarding volume initially, but as it's been stated, you set volume level of DAC in UAPP, then press back to exit. As long as you don't disconnect DAC, the DAC volume will stay put for all android based apps. Used with Netflix, HBO GO, Tidal, YouTube. The fix, though not ideal, absolutely works.


----------



## Wambo

I have tried that work around multiple times on my Galaxy S8+ and it still doesn't work, UAPP will not terminate and continues to run in the background.  Would like to know if any other S8 uses are experiencing the same behavior?


----------



## bmoregnr

FlyingTrotter said:


> So is the advice if seeking to use an IPhone 6 as the source to defer buying a DAC until this issue is addressed by Apple - seems from the many threads on the IOS 10.3 threads that all comparable portable DACs are suffering in similar ways
> 
> Was about to dive in to buying a system but the issue has caused me to question the timing and make me think I should perhaps defer - what do folk think


I don't know about DACs in general but the DFB on an iPhone 7 10.3.1 with a cck3 is working real well with some Etymotic hf5s. Long train ride last week which was the first real shake down cruise with this configuration and I was very happy.


----------



## istrikerx

Has anyone tried doing a fresh restore of the latest iOS and then setting up from scratch?

I know when I received the phone I had to upgrade from 10.2.X to the last eat (at the time) 10.3.1. Just wondering if anything could have caused issues during the upgrade, specifically with iOS changing storage formats.


----------



## Devodonaldson (Jun 3, 2017)

Wambo said:


> I have tried that work around multiple times on my Galaxy S8+ and it still doesn't work, UAPP will not terminate and continues to run in the background.  Would like to know if any other S8 uses are experiencing the same behavior?


When you hit back, it's supposed to ask you if you want to exit. If it's not, you need to check the settings in the app and make sure it's set to ask. Make sure you play something first before you exit the app. I've done this on 5 different devices without issue, so I know it works. I use it everyday. FYI I am an s8 owner, and that is one of the devices I use it with


----------



## balleklorin

I have a new iPad mini 4. DFR turns off a while after the end of the playlist. Is this normal? Sometimes I also have a problem with DFR turns itself off and on again. Especially when I move the iPad around. Using the USB2 adapter.
Don't have these problems on my Android phone and Windows PC.


----------



## bmoregnr

balleklorin said:


> I have a new iPad mini 4. DFR turns off a while after the end of the playlist. Is this normal? Sometimes I also have a problem with DFR turns itself off and on again. Especially when I move the iPad around. Using the USB2 adapter.
> Don't have these problems on my Android phone and Windows PC.


The lightning to USB 3 camera kit seems to be solving ios issues.  I had a cck2 kit on an older phone and my DFB would turn off after an idle period; with the cck3 it no longer turns off when idle.


----------



## wwyjoe

Not sure if any Samsung S8 users with DFR facing the same issue: I have set my Onkyo HF Player app as the default app when plugging the DFR into my S8+. However, I still continue getting up the same popup EVERY time I plug in the DFR (asking if the Onkyo app is the default app). Anyway to disable the popup permanently?


----------



## georgelai57

I don't know if it was Audioquest's FW update or Apple's iOS update (or both) but my DFR no longer has the occasional pops/clicks when using a USB2 CCK in the few days of at least 15 hours total that I've been using it. May it long continue!


----------



## Thor71

georgelai57 said:


> I don't know if it was Audioquest's FW update or Apple's iOS update (or both) but my DFR no longer has the occasional pops/clicks when using a USB2 CCK in the few days of at least 15 hours total that I've been using it. May it long continue!


What about SQ?
I made a comparison with cck USB3 and this one sounds better to my ears...


----------



## georgelai57

Thor71 said:


> What about SQ?
> I made a comparison with cck USB3 and this one sounds better to my ears...


It's blasphemous on this forum but I don't really pay that much attention to SQ unless it is really bad.


----------



## Brahmsian (Jun 25, 2017)

In case you're thinking about buying a Dragonfly, here are some initial impressions. I just bought a red one. FYI I'm listening on a pair of Monolith 1060 planar headphones without any other hardware in the mix, and I'm streaming Tidal via Audirvana.

The first thing I did was play classical. Impression: *negative*. Sounded like the DF was emphasizing things in the mids that I just did not want emphasized. The piano sounded harsh.

After about three hours (this was a marathon night session; luckily, I'm off work today), I switched genres. Instead of orchestral, I started playing rock/pop/rap/hip-hop. In other words, I started playing songs, stuff with lead vocals in it. Here things get much better.

Unamped, the M1060 pushes lead vocals back on some recordings. The voice tends to sound recessed, with no spotlight on it, as if it were just another instrument in the group. After adding the DFR, lead vocals have _much_ more presence. So the DFR fixed a specific problem I was having with a specific pair of headphones, and I'm very happy about this.

The DFR does not widen the soundstage on my M1060. But in this case that's a good thing. DFR makes things sound more cohesive and integrated.

I have little doubt right now that adding the DFR offered me a huge improvement in the sonics of a certain type of music compared to just plugging my headphones into my MacBook's headphone jack. But with classical I'd recommend the Meridian Explorer2 for the same price.

I did have a problem with the ME2 in that my MacBook suddenly stopped recognizing it. I returned it. But I intend to buy another for listening to classical. It could be that the Dragonfly needed to break in. I don't know if I believe in break-in, but, just in case, I intend to throw some more classical at it later today. I will post if I notice an improvement.


----------



## Firun

Quick question... I'm seriously considering to buy the Red, but I wonder how I would go about equalizing these on my notebook. Whilst it might be entirely possible that the Red sounds "right" for me I'd like to have the ability to tone down any sibilance I might get. As far as I can tell there is no driver that directly interfaces with the device, so I suppose I'd need some kind of software equalizer (i.e. the one in Foobar2000). Is that correct?


----------



## gavinfabl

Using the DFR with my iPhone 7 Plus and iPad 10.5 with no issues. Using the CCK3. Also using the audioquest jitterbug which seems to smooth the sound.


----------



## Duncan

jegnyc said:


> Are you using iOS 10.3.x? If so, join the club.
> 
> https://discussions.apple.com/thread/7932507?start=0&tstart=0
> 
> Many reports of this problem with a range of DACs on this forum.


I've never had a problem with the DFR however with my new RHA L1, I've joined the club...

I have a way of stopping the disconnects, works over many hours, although some will say it is just coincidence...

After starting your music, forcibly turn off the screen (power button), and the world is good, mine seems to cut out if the screen timed out.

YMMV - but worth a try


----------



## riderx1

I couldn't tell any difference bet/ red and black.


----------



## SpiderNhan

riderx1 said:


> I couldn't tell any difference bet/ red and black.


Buy the cheaper one.


----------



## leeperry

ES9010 in DF Black runs Minimum Phase by default but ES9016 in DF Red is older and doesn't, hopefully they did their homework and program it to force it huh?


----------



## WoodyLuvr (Jun 14, 2017)

riderx1 said:


> I couldn't tell any difference bet/ red and black.



*To my ears* there wasn't a huge difference between the Red and Black.  I ended up buying the Black with the JitterBug and not the Red model as I preferred the Black DragonFly's ever so slightly darker/softer (more mellow?) sound signature and lower volume control... it was much easier to fine tune and adjust to a lower volume than on the Red which was much, much louder due to its higher amp output.  So I saved myself some money choosing the black variant over the red one as I hadn't quite realized there was such a dramatic price difference between the two!  What was the most surprising to me was that I honestly couldn't pinpoint any _*major*_ improvement with either a Deckard or Benchmark DAC3 over the DragonFly Black... slowly coming to the realization (I am a slow learner) that anything beyond the DragonFly is simply overkill and well past that diminishing point of worthy returns.


----------



## WoodyLuvr

leeperry said:


> ES9010 in DF Black runs Minimum Phase by default but ES9016 in DF Red is older and doesn't, hopefully they did their homework and program it to force it huh?


Interesting, I completely missed this important feature/spec.


----------



## miki69 (Jun 15, 2017)

It seems I can't update DF Black via software. No matter what, software doesn't recognize when I plug-in DF Black (it keeps saying SN:N/A)... Windows 7 64 bit version. Any idea how to resolve this?

DAC is working normally for playback (it is recognized by Windows).

Cheers,
Miki


----------



## RAQemUP (Jun 15, 2017)

This is assuming the software isn't messing up or your USB port isn't completely working.

You can only update DFB 1.5 which debuted along with DFR. The old DFB 1.0 and DFB 1.2 cannot be updated. To tell if you have a DFB 1.5, on the back of it it would say it's Dragonfly Black 1.5 in gold lettering.


----------



## miki69

Yes, I have DF Black v1.5 , but I'm an idiot!!! Just realized DF Black is at home, and the one I have plugged in at work is DF 1.0 

Thanks and sorry for confusion.

Cheers,


----------



## Donie Ray Samba-an

gavinfabl said:


> Using the DFR with my iPhone 7 Plus and iPad 10.5 with no issues. Using the CCK3. Also using the audioquest jitterbug which seems to smooth the sound.



Are you using ios 10.3.x? or you are on  iOS 10.2?


----------



## gavinfabl

Donie Ray Samba-an said:


> Are you using ios 10.3.x? or you are on  iOS 10.2?


10.3.2 ATM.


----------



## jkjk123

Does anyone have experience using the DF Black on a Windows laptop with IEMs? I'm wondering if there will be hissing with sensitive IEMs.


----------



## WoodyLuvr

jkjk123 said:


> Does anyone have experience using the DF Black on a Windows laptop with IEMs? I'm wondering if there will be hissing with sensitive IEMs.


Absolutely no hiss or noise heard via a Windows 10 PC with either the Shure SE535LTD-J or JVC HA-FX750 iem plugged into the DragonFly Black (with or without the JitterBug)


----------



## miki69

Ok, so I updated DFB everything went smooth, but I'm experiencing a minor annoyance now: 
when I play music via laptop and then plug-in DFB, it takes good 5-6 secs before music is played via DFB. It wasn't like that before, and I also tried with DF v1.0, in a matter of second music is played via DF1.

Cheers,


----------



## CharlesC

Sorry if this has been asked already but I can't read this whole thread:  Does the power provided by an iPhone allow the Dragonfly sound quality to be similar to when plugged into a computer?   Several years ago I had a HRT Microstreamer and it always seemed to me that the sound was noticeably more dynamic when used with a PC than with an iPhone.  I've assumed this had to do with the power source.  Thanks!


----------



## WoodyLuvr

CharlesC said:


> Sorry if this has been asked already but I can't read this whole thread:  Does the power provided by an iPhone allow the Dragonfly sound quality to be similar to when plugged into a computer?   Several years ago I had a HRT Microstreamer and it always seemed to me that the sound was noticeably more dynamic when used with a PC than with an iPhone.  I've assumed this had to do with the power source.  Thanks!


I personally have not noticed any difference in sound quality between my PC and smartphones.


----------



## jkjk123

WoodyLuvr said:


> Absolutely no hiss or noise heard via a Windows 10 PC with either the Shure SE535LTD-J or JVC HA-FX750 iem plugged into the DragonFly Black (with or without the JitterBug)



Great, thanks! I am thinking about ordering one. Where is everyone buying it from online to make sure it is authentic? I noticed crutchfield and BHphoto has them. Not sure about buying from random sellers on Amazon.


----------



## DancingBlue

jkjk123 said:


> Great, thanks! I am thinking about ordering one. Where is everyone buying it from online to make sure it is authentic? I noticed crutchfield and BHphoto has them. Not sure about buying from random sellers on Amazon.



I got mine on Amazon from Hidef Lifestyle. They're an authorized vendor according to the AQ site. If you want to order from Amazon, just check the dealer against AQ's official reseller list.


----------



## WoodyLuvr

Here are some findings regarding an independent testing of the DragonFly Black v1.5: https://archimago.blogspot.com/2017/06/measurements-audioquest-dragonfly-black.html

*AQ DragonFly Black v1.5*
Vrms: 1.3V
Vmax: 1.85V
Output Impedance: 0.61-ohms
Current Draw: <100mW (<90mA) @ 5V with a 16-ohms IEM at full volume... I find this particularly amazing, very efficient!​


----------



## Lucas_ob

got the black costs 110 $


----------



## TheRH

How is floor noise with IEM's  with the DFB?


----------



## WoodyLuvr

TheRH said:


> How is floor noise with IEM's  with the DFB?


I don't hear anything with either my JVC HA-FX750 or Shure SE535LTD-J.


----------



## Brahmsian (Jun 21, 2017)

Suddenly I'm looking at how I'm going to use my DragonFly Red on a MacBook Pro with only the USB-C connection. I have to plug the DragonFly into an adapter? How's that working out for you DF people?

The Air's looking mighty appealing with that USB-A port and SD slot. And, as long as we're on the subject, what's going on in the world of USB-C headphones and amps? As far as I have Googled it, not much.


----------



## WoodyLuvr

Brahmsian said:


> Suddenly I'm looking at how I'm going to use my DragonFly Red on a MacBook Pro with only the USB-C connection. I have to plug the DragonFly into an adapter? How's that working out for you DF people?


I hear absolutely no difference whither my DF is plugged in directly to a PC USB 3.0 port or via a usb 3.0 hub.


----------



## Brahmsian

WoodyLuvr said:


> I hear absolutely no difference whither my DF is plugged in directly to a PC USB 3.0 port or via a usb 3.0 hub.


That's good to know but I still rather plug it right into the port. I thought there'd be more of a push from consumers to start moving to USB-C. In fact, I thought Audio Quest would have a USB-C version by now. But the process looks to be moving so slowly that I might as well get the MacBook Air with the old USB port and wait a few years for things to catch up.


----------



## Gonzbull

It would be a waste of the capabilities of USB C to have a single device like a Dragonfly connected to it. I'd get a USB hub and make full use of it. 
I'm really tempted to get the new 2017 MBP. Still using a 2009 MBP here happily though and it's rock solid.


----------



## WoodyLuvr

Gonzbull said:


> It would be a waste of the capabilities of USB C to have a single device like a Dragonfly connected to it. I'd get a USB hub and make full use of it.


Concur.


----------



## Brahmsian

Gonzbull said:


> It would be a waste of the capabilities of USB C to have a single device like a Dragonfly connected to it. I'd get a USB hub and make full use of it.





WoodyLuvr said:


> Concur.


It seems like using a hub turns the MacBook into something more stationary and also kinda obviates one of the main reasons I bought the DF. I might as well get a desk amp. But maybe in practice I'd feel differently about it.


----------



## Liviu Nicolof

WoodyLuvr said:


> *To my ears* there wasn't a huge difference between the Red and Black.  I ended up buying the Black with the JitterBug and not the Red model as I preferred the Black DragonFly's ever so slightly darker/softer (more mellow?) sound signature and lower volume control... it was much easier to fine tune and adjust to a lower volume than on the Red which was much, much louder due to its higher amp output.  So I saved myself some money choosing the black variant over the red one as I hadn't quite realized there was such a dramatic price difference between the two!  What was the most surprising to me was that I honestly couldn't pinpoint any _*major*_ improvement with either a Deckard or Benchmark DAC3 over the DragonFly Black... slowly coming to the realization (I am a slow learner) that anything beyond the DragonFly is simply overkill and well past that diminishing point of worthy returns.



I have the same feeling, looks mostly  like an EQ applied on software on PC.Very disappointed.


----------



## Brahmsian (Jun 25, 2017)

WoodyLuvr said:


> slowly coming to the realization (I am a slow learner) that anything beyond the DragonFly is simply overkill and well past that diminishing point of worthy returns.


You're going against one of my assumptions, which is that improving my amp will also improve dynamic range. For example, last night I played https://listen.tidal.com/album/71256100. Here's a thumbnail of the cover art:




The dynamic range of this symphony is huge. In the tutti passages, especially at the end, the music began to clip/distort. At that point, I started wondering whether the problem was a) the microphone they used to record the symphony b) my headphones or 3) my amp (DragonFly Red). I settled on the latter and thought that getting a better amp would let me listen to the these passages without clipping or distortion. Was that assumption wrong? Anybody who knows more about amps than I do is welcome to give their two cents.

By the way, I'm not criticizing the DFR. There is only so much you can expect for $200.


----------



## WoodyLuvr (Jun 26, 2017)

Brahmsian said:


> You're going against one of my assumptions, which is that improving my amp will also improve dynamic range. For example, last night I played https://listen.tidal.com/album/71256100. Here's a thumbnail of the cover art:
> 
> The dynamic range of this symphony is huge. In the tutti passages, especially at the end, the music began to clip/distort. At that point, I started wondering whether the problem was a) the microphone they used to record the symphony b) my headphones or 3) my amp (DragonFly Red). I settled on the latter and thought that getting a better amp would let me listen to the these passages without clipping or distortion. Was that assumption wrong? Anybody who knows more about amps than I do is welcome to give their two cents.
> 
> By the way, I'm not criticizing the DFR. There is only so much you can expect for $200.


Really depends on the headphones being used... my comment regarding the DFB being end-game for me was in relation to all of my headphones being 32 ohms or less (apologies for not being very clear on that part).  With that said, if you are using your HD650s I still be very surprised that the DragonFly Red amp is clipping on you as it should be driving your HD650s to a 109 peak dB SPL... should be more than enough headroom for Mahler's Resurrection even at very loud listening levels.

~85 dB listening level with open backs  +  ~20 dB headroom for challenging dynamic classical pieces = ~105 dB      (please note that this would be at an extremely loud listening level)

AQ DragonFly Red (DFR) - Power Output (Vmax) & Impedance: 2.1 Vrms (5.94 Vp-p) @ <1 ohm
SENN HD650 - Impedance & Sensitivity: 300 ohms @ 97.8 db/mW SPL (103 dB/V SPL)

I.) DFR Power Output with HD650: (2.1 Vrms * 2.1 Vrms)/300 ohms = 14.7 mW

II.) SPL from Power for HD650 & DFR: 97.8 dB/mW + 10 * LOG (14.7 mW) = 109.5 peak dB SPL

III.) SPL from Voltage for HD650 & DFR: 103 dB/V + 20 * LOG (2.1 Vrms) = 109.4 peak dB SPL​.
I too would be interested in hearing any/all ideas/arguments regarding the DFR's (or DFB's) amp power output capabilities.


BTW:  I particularly like the 2010 Sir Simon Rattle / BPO version of Mahler's Symphony No. 2 with a fondness of: V. Mit Aufschwung aber nicht eilen


----------



## Brahmsian

Well now I have another question: What's going on? I went back to the very same recording (the MQA of Gergiev's Mahler's 2 streamed on Tidal via Audirvana using the very same MacBook) and played it using a different pair of headphones (M1060). I encountered no distortion or clipping. So I went back to the HE400i, the headphones I was using when I encountered the clipping/distortion, and tried to reproduce it. I couldn't. Any guesses as to why? These are new headphones and also a new DragonFly Red. It almost sounds like one or the other component had to open up to accommodate the extreme dynamics, like the amp or headphones were breaking in. But that's just a wild surmise. The informed opinion of others might help me solve this minor mystery.


----------



## WoodyLuvr (Jun 27, 2017)

A *connection/streaming* error, hiccup, and/or delay perhaps?


----------



## Brahmsian

Could be. It sounded like the headphones weren't getting enough power or something. Sounded electrical. Anybody who has listened to speakers a lot would recognize the type of distortion I heard, like there was too much sonic information so you get some static on top. I kind of blamed the DragonFly but things are sounding fine now.


----------



## WoodyLuvr

Brahmsian said:


> Could be. It sounded like the headphones weren't getting enough power or something. Sounded electrical. Anybody who has listened to speakers a lot would recognize the type of distortion I heard, like there was too much sonic information so you get some static on top. I kind of blamed the DragonFly but things are sounding fine now.


Happy to hear that the problem has cleared up for you.


----------



## coolcrew23

Hello guys, happy user of both dragonfly red and black. I use them on my macbook, and iphone. My songs all come from Tidal HiFi. Right now I wanna get a good transport for these.

Is the most reliable mobile Tidal player on iOS? If this is the case i plan to get an ipod touch with good storage (maybe 64gb or 128gb). I heard android is glitchy especially on daps.


----------



## WoodyLuvr (Jun 27, 2017)

coolcrew23 said:


> Hello guys, happy user of both dragonfly red and black. I use them on my macbook, and iphone. My songs all come from Tidal HiFi. Right now I wanna get a good transport for these.
> 
> Is the most reliable mobile Tidal player on iOS? If this is the case i plan to get an ipod touch with good storage (maybe 64gb or 128gb). I heard android is glitchy especially on daps.


I have had no problems with my Android smartphone + UAPP (*USB Audio Pro Player*) which allows the user to completely bypass the internal smartphone DAC and stream from Tidal (or playback downloaded files).  Make sure to go into the Tidal quality setting within UAPP itself and adjust accordingly.


----------



## coolcrew23

WoodyLuvr said:


> I have had no problems with my Android smartphone + UAPP (*USB Audio Pro Player*) which allows the user to completely bypass the internal smartphone DAC and stream from Tidal (or playback downloaded files).  Make sure to go into the Tidal quality setting within UAPP itself and adjust accordingly.



thanks! forgot to mention i need i will need tidal offline since net isn't that fast where i live. i've been reading that android daps have issues with tidal offline.


----------



## Donie Ray Samba-an

Has anyone got problem with DFR on iphone SE+cck3 on iOS 10.3.2 set up?


----------



## jkjk123

TheRH said:


> How is floor noise with IEM's  with the DFB?



When I tested it with 1More Quad drivers (32 Ohm, 99 db/mW), I did not notice any hissing. There might be some with higher sensitivity IEMs though, not sure, will let others chime in!


----------



## jkjk123

So I tried the Dragonfly Black on my 1More Quads. Did some A/B testing between the laptop headphone jack (Dell XPS 15, 9550) vs the DFB, and I really could not tell a difference between the two once I normalized the volumes (since DFB will output higher volume than laptop headphone jack). I am was using Spotify premium, 320 kbps, for the songs.

At one point I thought the DFB sounded better (very marginally), but I cannot say if was simply due to placebo.

Anyways, just a thought for anyone looking to get these for mid-tier IEMs that are not too sensitive to sources and using 320 kbps mp3s - I don't think there will be much of a difference.


----------



## SimpleHuman

I've been running a dragonfly red off my Mac on Tidal with a pair of Sony xba-Z5s over the last half year or so and have been loving the sound. 
Are there any recommended cables to use the dragonfly with an android device (usb to micro usb) like the stock dragontail or would it likely not matter?


----------



## RAQemUP

Just need a OTG cable either male micro USB or male USB C depending on your phone to female USB A. Lots of cheap ones on Amazon that will work.


----------



## SimpleHuman

Thanks!


----------



## jegnyc

Donie Ray Samba-an said:


> Has anyone got problem with DFR on iphone SE+cck3 on iOS 10.3.2 set up?


A lot of people have reported problems with iOS 10.3.x and various DACs (Oppo, Chord Mojo and Dragonfly among others).  It's a problem with iOS, and I have seen reports that it is resolved in both the iOS 10.3.3 beta 4 and iOS 11 beta.


----------



## gazzington

Hi. In your opinions would a dragonfly red improve the sound of a fiio x5 iii running nightowl headphones. I am currently running it through a chord mojo but it's a bit bulky in my pocket


----------



## Donie Ray Samba-an

jegnyc said:


> A lot of people have reported problems with iOS 10.3.x and various DACs (Oppo, Chord Mojo and Dragonfly among others).  It's a problem with iOS, and I have seen reports that it is resolved in both the iOS 10.3.3 beta 4 and iOS 11 beta.


Thanks. I'll check the public beta reports


----------



## nicholars (Jun 29, 2017)

I am using dragonfly black with UAPP and Samsung S7, can you tell me if there is any way to limit the max volume? I just by mistake put it at max volume with earphones in and it was literally the loudest thing I have ever heard and now my ears hurt and I probably damaged my hearing or the headphones... seriously UAPP with dragonfly black is dangerous!!! The max volume is INSANELY loud and very easy to put it at MAX volume by mistake as it is a volume slider on the phone screen... thanks.


----------



## Devodonaldson (Jun 29, 2017)

nicholars said:


> I am using dragonfly black with UAPP and Samsung S7, can you tell me if there is any way to limit the max volume? I just by mistake put it at max volume with earphones in and it was literally the loudest thing I have ever heard and now my ears hurt and I probably damaged my hearing or the headphones... seriously UAPP with dragonfly black is dangerous!!! The max volume is INSANELY loud and very easy to put it at MAX volume by mistake as it is a volume slider on the phone screen... thanks.


There are 2 volumes. Hardware and software. Set the hardware volume, then have the volume slider set to software. Now, at Max software volume, it won't reach beyond the level it was set at on hardware volume. For best purposes, you want bit perfect and the sets software at Max, and you simply control hardware volume, but for what you are asking this is the way to do it. Honestly, if you set it to bit perfect, and set slider to hardware volume, and set the volume steps to 100, shouldn't be any reason you accidentally click the volume all the way to 100, unless you just have a very twitchy finger. Good luck


----------



## nicholars

Devodonaldson said:


> There are 2 volumes. Hardware and software. Set the hardware volume, then have the volume slider set to software. Now, at Max software volume, it won't reach beyond the level it was set at on hardware volume. For best purposes, you want bit perfect and the sets software at Max, and you simply control hardware volume, but for what you are asking this is the way to do it. Honestly, if you set it to bit perfect, and set slider to hardware volume, and set the volume steps to 100, shouldn't be any reason you accidentally click the volume all the way to 100, unless you just have a very twitchy finger. Good luck



That explains it perfectly thanks, I had volume set to hardware so it was changing the hardware volume and the max is probably about 200db lol, I should have found this out before almost blowing my ears / headphones, but that is a lot better now thanks. UAPP is good once you know how to use it, but its definitely not very "user friendly".


----------



## nicholars (Jul 3, 2017)

I will say something about the DFB with the IE80 using the S7 as source, this sounds really great, I went back to my Sansa clip and SE215 and it sounds not good in comparison, I also tried the IE80 with the clip and they sound good, but the DFB definitely sounds better than the clip and the DFB + IE80 + UAPP bit perfect, is extremely good, I like the sound (almost) as much as the THX00 +D1050, although obviously different due to IEM vs over ears.


----------



## biggbenn74

Ok, finally pulled the trigger on a DFR + Jitterbug combo (BOTH for $189, open box) and I have a question or two I would love to have answered.

I'll be using this setup out of my iphone 7+ for the main part, youtube rips are no stranger to my headphones. I've been told the sound will be at least a little "cleaned up" overall, not expecting miracles. Listening through Monolith M1060.

BUT, with iOS 11 coming soon, Apple says the software update should support lossless, high fidelity music files. Looking at a Tidal subscription as my wife is a current student, and could end up saving half on a subscription.

Would it be beneficial to get a Tidal premium membership knowing that in the near future my iPhone will be able to have the capabilities to unleash the DFR to its full potential? Or would the benefits from MP3's simply be justified enough.

Thanks!


----------



## jegnyc

biggbenn74 said:


> Ok, finally pulled the trigger on a DFR + Jitterbug combo (BOTH for $189, open box) and I have a question or two I would love to have answered.
> 
> I'll be using this setup out of my iphone 7+ for the main part, youtube rips are no stranger to my headphones. I've been told the sound will be at least a little "cleaned up" overall, not expecting miracles. Listening through Monolith M1060.
> 
> ...



Not exactly an answer to your question.  More a qualification.

I'm not sure Tidal implementation will change all that much with iOS 11.  Right now you can get CD resolution sound from Tidal on your iPhone.  What you don't get is MQA (and I don't want to debate the merits of MQA) as it's only available from a computer.  Maybe this will change, but I haven't heard anything about it.  And I don't think it's related to the capabilities of iOS.

To be clear you can already get hi-rez playback on an iPhone with one of several third party apps.


----------



## Donie Ray Samba-an

jegnyc said:


> Not exactly an answer to your question.  More a qualification.
> 
> I'm not sure Tidal implementation will change all that much with iOS 11.  Right now you can get CD resolution sound from Tidal on your iPhone.  What you don't get is MQA (and I don't want to debate the merits of MQA) as it's only available from a computer.  Maybe this will change, but I haven't heard anything about it.  And I don't think it's related to the capabilities of iOS.
> 
> To be clear you can already get hi-rez playback on an iPhone with one of several third party apps.




You do not have problems using DFR on your iPhone? What iOS version are you using?


----------



## jegnyc

Donie Ray Samba-an said:


> You do not have problems using DFR on your iPhone? What iOS version are you using?


10.2.


----------



## cykelvin

Any of you happens to try both the Dragonfly Red and LH Labs Geekout v2?  Just curious which one is better.


----------



## Donie Ray Samba-an

jegnyc said:


> 10.2.



I see. I thought you were using 10.3.2. Thanks.


----------



## kushanukum

cykelvin said:


> Any of you happens to try both the Dragonfly Red and LH Labs Geekout v2?  Just curious which one is better.





cykelvin said:


> Any of you happens to try both the Dragonfly Red and LH Labs Geekout v2?  Just curious which one is better.


----------



## kushanukum

I just ordered a GOv2 and promptly cancelled it an d ordered the DFR, because I'm thinking the GOv2 will draw to much power from my IPhone 6. If your using with a laptop no problem


----------



## Mompy7777 (Jul 5, 2017)

Hi guys, I have a pair of Sennheiser x Massdrop HD 6XX (basically HD650s)  coming in december and I wanted to know if the  Dragonfly Red can drive them properly since they have an impedance of 300 ohm and that worries me a little bit, if not what other solution can you guys suggest? I need a DAC/AMP combo


----------



## cykelvin

kushanukum said:


> I just ordered a GOv2 and promptly cancelled it an d ordered the DFR, because I'm thinking the GOv2 will draw to much power from my IPhone 6. If your using with a laptop no problem



Yes, the iphone can't power the GOV2. I might just sell it and get the DFR instead.


----------



## WoodyLuvr

Mompy7777 said:


> Hi guys, I have a pair of Sennheiser x Massdrop HD 6XX (basically HD650s)  coming in december and I wanted to know if the  Dragonfly Red can drive them properly since they have an impedance of 300 ohm and that worries me a little bit, if not what other solution can you guys suggest? I need a DAC/AMP combo


The DFR will drive your HD6XXs to ~109 peak dB SPL which should be more than enough power and headroom even at loud listening levels.

AQ DragonFly Red (DFR) - Power Output (Vmax) & Impedance: 2.1 Vrms (5.94 Vp-p) @ <1 ohm
SENN HD6XX - Impedance & Sensitivity: 300 ohms @ 97.8 db/mW SPL (103 dB/V SPL)​
I.) DFR Power Output with HD6XX: (2.1 Vrms * 2.1 Vrms)/300 ohms = 14.7 mW

II.) SPL from Power for HD6XX & DFR: 97.8 dB/mW + 10 * LOG (14.7 mW) = 109.5 peak dB SPL

III.) SPL from Voltage for HD6XX & DFR: 103 dB/V + 20 * LOG (2.1 Vrms) = 109.4 peak dB SPL​


----------



## Mompy7777

WoodyLuvr said:


> The DFR will drive your HD6XXs to ~109 peak dB SPL which should be more than enough power and headroom even at loud listening levels.
> 
> AQ DragonFly Red (DFR) - Power Output (Vmax) & Impedance: 2.1 Vrms (5.94 Vp-p) @ <1 ohm
> SENN HD6XX - Impedance & Sensitivity: 300 ohms @ 97.8 db/mW SPL (103 dB/V SPL)​
> ...



Thank you so much for that, another question :
Let's say I make the effort and buy a Mojo Chord, will I feel a big difference that justifies paying more than twice the price of a DFR? Always with the HD650s in mind

Thank you


----------



## WoodyLuvr (Jul 6, 2017)

Mompy7777 said:


> ... Let's say I make the effort and buy a Mojo Chord, will I feel a big difference that justifies paying more than twice the price of a DFR? ...


That is a question I am currently researching myself and would love a good answer too!  I too would like to know where that line for diminishing returns occurs when amping headphones from a completely objective perspective using scientific calculations.  That being said many would tell you that the MOJO will drive the HD6XX with "more authority" giving you better sound than the DFR... I just don't know if that is entirely true from a power amp calculations perspective.  Is there really going to be a 'hearable' performance difference between the DFR's 109 peak dB and the MOJO's 117 dB? Will this dramatically effect the headroom?  Now of course the difference in DAC chips may or may not have an effect on the sound but I am only considering (talking about) the power amp performance here.

Chord MOJO - Power Output (Vmax) & Impedance: 5.3 Vrms (15.0 Vp-p) @ 0.075 ohms
SENN HD6XX - Impedance & Sensitivity: 300 ohms @ 97.8 db/mW SPL (103 dB/V SPL)​
I.) MOJO Power Output with HD6XX: (5.3 Vrms * 5.3 Vrms)/300 ohms = 93.6 mW
II.) SPL from Power for HD6XX & MOJO: 97.8 dB/mW + 10 * LOG (93.6 mW) = 117.5 peak dB SPL
III.) SPL from Voltage for HD6XX & MOJO: 103 dB/V + 20 * LOG (5.3 Vmax) = 117.5 peak dB SPL​


----------



## Devodonaldson

WoodyLuvr said:


> That is a question I am currently researching myself and would love a good answer too!  I too would like to know where that line for diminishing returns occurs when amping headphones from a completely objective perspective using scientific calculations.  That being said many would tell you that the MOJO will drive the HD6XX with "more authority" giving you better sound than the DFR... I just don't know if that is entirely true from a power amp calculations perspective.  Is there really going to be a 'hearable' performance difference between the DFR's 109 peak dB and the MOJO's 117 dB? Will this dramatically effect the headroom?  Now of course the difference in DAC chips may or may not have an effect on the sound but I am only considering (talking about) the power amp performance here.
> 
> Chord MOJO - Power Output (Vmax) & Impedance: 5.3 Vrms (15.0 Vp-p) @ 0.075 ohms
> SENN HD6XX - Impedance & Sensitivity: 300 ohms @ 97.8 db/mW SPL (103 dB/V SPL)​
> ...


I am a DFR user since it came out. Spent time with the mojo at canham, both days. Did a notice a difference between dfr and mojo, yes. Was it major, no, not at all, IMO. Mojo was a litter cleaner and redolute throughout the frequency spectrum, but most certainly did not justify the $400 price difference over the DFR. Only portable DAC that has my attention after ffr is the coming Mytek clef, because it has a MQA decoder built in. Meaning on Android with UAPP I will be able to stream MQA from Tidal from my phone. That and the volume potentiometer. But DFR is good enough. Save the extra towards better headphones or something


----------



## Mompy7777

Devodonaldson said:


> I am a DFR user since it came out. Spent time with the mojo at canham, both days. Did a notice a difference between dfr and mojo, yes. Was it major, no, not at all, IMO. Mojo was a litter cleaner and redolute throughout the frequency spectrum, but most certainly did not justify the $400 price difference over the DFR. Only portable DAC that has my attention after ffr is the coming Mytek clef, because it has a MQA decoder built in. Meaning on Android with UAPP I will be able to stream MQA from Tidal from my phone. That and the volume potentiometer. But DFR is good enough. Save the extra towards better headphones or something



This is when it gets confusing for me, some folks say that the difference between the DFR and the MOJO is not that much, and some other people says the MOJO plays in a whole different league compared to the DFR. 
I just want to have the best out of my HD 6XXs but without wasting money


----------



## WoodyLuvr

What it is worth I personally believe the DFR is right there on the border of diminishing returns.  Yes, the MOJO may sound slightly better due to the slightly better DAC chip and more available power but definitely not worth the USD 400 it will cost you to reap that minor gain.  Also, the DFR is far more portable and less power hungry so that is definitely a factor in its favor.

FYI: I ended up gifting my MOJO (along with my LCD-2s) as the MOJO's battery frustrated me during my typically long listening sessions (that seemingly instant red blinking light would royally piss me off to no end!) and the form factor wasn't working for me, to clunky... the LCD-2s were just plain too heavy and uncomfortable especially for long sessions.


----------



## Devodonaldson

Mompy7777 said:


> This is when it gets confusing for me, some folks say that the difference between the DFR and the MOJO is not that much, and some other people says the MOJO plays in a whole different league compared to the DFR.
> I just want to have the best out of my HD 6XXs but without wasting money


Ok, here's the next question. What kind of music files are you playing. If we're talking DSD, 24-BIT 240KHZ music files, then yes, the Mojo definitely punches above the DFR. But if we're talking 16bit 44.1khz CD quality, or up to 24-bit 96khz, the difference is anything but dramatic. I listen almost exclusively to Tidal FLAC. I have a fewb24-biy 96khz albums. That is what I tested. Mojo over dfr YES! $200 VS $600, gimmie the DFR, cuz the difference wasn't THAT grand. If money is no objection, then just get the better mojo, but I doubt that is the case because we are discussing the 6XX, not a Focal Elear or Utopia. You will be happy with the DFR. Regarding musical taste. I range from Kendrick Lamar, Big baby Dram, Outkast, Amy Winehouse, Adele, John Coltrane, Frank Sinatra, Lady Antebellum, Nicki Lane, London Grammar, Yo-Yo Ma, Bach, Beethoven, Soundgarden, Nirvana. I listen to it all through my DFR. Am very happy. The ONLY thing you could add to the DFR is a more powerful amp. The Cayin C5 has loads of power in high gain mode. Combined with DFR will drive 300ohm cans to great levels of power, and that's an extra $130ish. So at a total of $330, you are still far below the Mojo price tag. Just saying


----------



## malcbo

Mompy7777 said:


> Thank you so much for that, another question :
> Let's say I make the effort and buy a Mojo Chord, will I feel a big difference that justifies paying more than twice the price of a DFR? Always with the HD650s in mind
> 
> Thank you


Hi,

I started with the DFR and I enjoyed pretty much (with V-Moda M-100 & AGK K3003).
A couple of months later I jumped on the Mojo hype and, as a result, DFR now stays most of the time in the drawer. I find it lacks power, is too bright and lacks soundstage when compared to the Mojo.

Now with regards to the HD650s, I find that both DFR and Mojo don't do justice enough to these headphones. The first time I really enjoyed listening to them was when I got the Schiit Magni 2. This amp clearly has enough power to drive the HD650s.


----------



## WoodyLuvr (Jul 6, 2017)

I wish someone would help explain to me (concisely and scientifically) how more power beyond the DFR's 14.7 mW @ 300 ohms and even the MOJO's 93.6 mW @ 300 ohms would make the HD6XX sound and perform better?  I am dying to figure out this whole headphone amp'ing conundrum as I am missing something that would make sense of it all.  I have asked this question a few times before and have gained some enlightenment but still seeking a solid answer with proof.

If we take the Schiit Magni 2's max power output of 260 mW @ 300 ohms (which is a tremendous amount of power) we find that it is capable of driving HD6XXs to a deafening 121.9 peak dB SPL!

_SPL from Power = 97.8 dB/mW SPL + 10 * LOG (260 mW) = 121.9 peak dB SPL_​
Is this really necessary for better sound or is it well beyond what we can actually hear and benefit from?  What I am trying to say or ask here is: why would we need anything more than 20 dB of headroom for an extremely demanding and dynamic classical piece being listened at 85 dB with open backs or 65-75 db with closed backs... as anything under 105-110 peak dB SPL with less than 1%THD should be more than enough to easily cover extremely demanding music pieces such as Mahler's Resurrection (Symphony No. 2)?

I am also finding myself questioning DAC capabilities, as well as I have been unable to consistently differentiate the difference between most recent DAC chips; e.g. I honestly am unable to hear a real difference between my DFB and say a Deckard or Benchmark DAC3/4 which is frustrating to me as I have wanted a Benchmark for a very long time!


----------



## Mompy7777

malcbo said:


> Hi,
> 
> I started with the DFR and I enjoyed pretty much (with V-Moda M-100 & AGK K3003).
> A couple of months later I jumped on the Mojo hype and, as a result, DFR now stays most of the time in the drawer. I find it lacks power, is too bright and lacks soundstage when compared to the Mojo.
> ...



Im starting to think its not a bad idea to give up portability and go for a magni 2 / modi 2 combo for around $200 bucks in order to get most for my HD 650s, any major difference between the regular versions and the ubers?


----------



## VRacer-111 (Jul 6, 2017)

The DFR is great for portable audio, with accurate and detailed presentation, and an extremely clean sound, clearer then my Bifrost/JAZZ-ff setup. I will say though that a dedicated home DAC/amp setup will really bring out more detail and dynamics in your headphones. DFR rock for high quality car and portable audio, and syncs so well with the TH-X00 PH that there is no real bass shortcomings. The bass with the Bifrost/JAZZ-ff combo though is much fuller and intense...WHOMPING MASSIVE CLEAN bass from out the TH-X00 PH.

I would just Jotunheim and be done with it if you are looking for a great DAC/amp combo for driving HD 650's...need balanced cable for the 650's to have the higher output but the Jotunheim has 300mw single ended and a balanced DAC. Look ahead all in one solution that would work great with just about anything. Solution I'm trying out soon is pairing the Bifrost 4490 with a Gustard H10 high current amp. Get to swap out Opamps and play with tuning the sound from the amp without drawbacks of tubes, plus many says it plays nicely with the HD 700 (which I have coming in). The DFR and Meier JAZZ-ff do different things well...both have their place in my setup. I imagine the Gustard H10 will have its place too.


----------



## malcbo

Mompy7777 said:


> Im starting to think its not a bad idea to give up portability and go for a magni 2 / modi 2 combo for around $200 bucks in order to get most for my HD 650s, any major difference between the regular versions and the ubers?


You can actually keep the DFR and use it as the source for the Schiit Magni 2.
As far as I know, Uber version is slightly more powerful: 320mW @ 300 Ohms vs 260mW.


----------



## koover

Ok, a question that's very polarized.
Do you believe in burn in with DFR? If so, how long before optimum?


----------



## Slaphead

koover said:


> Ok, a question that's very polarized.
> Do you believe in burn in with DFR? If so, how long before optimum?



No - the DFR is all digital, including the amp (class D). There really is nothing to burn in even if I did believe in burn-in with electronics

It's true that certain types of electronics perform at their best when warm - think tubes and class A or A/B amps, and therefore will "improve" up till their nominal operating temperature is reached.

It's also true that electronic components can change over time, such as capacitor electrolyte degrading which in turn changes the properties of the component, which in turn can change the sound, but this is really a failure mode rather than an improvement.

I've heard that Audioquest say that the DRF reach it's optimum after it's fully warmed up, but this is something I've heard second hand, so it might be total BS.

In short I've noticed no change in my DFR, and it's used pretty much every day.


----------



## koover (Jul 7, 2017)

Slaphead said:


> No - the DFR is all digital, including the amp (class D). There really is nothing to burn in even if I did believe in burn-in with electronics
> 
> It's true that certain types of electronics perform at their best when warm - think tubes and class A or A/B amps, and therefore will "improve" up till their nominal operating temperature is reached.
> 
> ...



Thank you for your response.
I agree as I haven't heard any audio differences from start to end on listening time. So many different opinions on burn in with everything from cables to HP's to DAC's etc. and the only ones I felt improved after some time was my nightowls and M1060's.
Hmmmm, maybe there's some truth to burn in with phones, or it's just brain burn in.


----------



## Devodonaldson

koover said:


> Thank you for your response.
> I agree as I haven't heard any audio differences from start to end on listening time. So many different opinions on burn in with everything from cables to HP's to DAC's etc. and the only ones I felt improved after some time was my nightowls and M1060's.
> Hmmmm, maybe there's some truth to burn in with phones, or it's just brain burn in.


Definitely truth to burn in with certain headphones depending on build materials. With biocellulose drivers, burn is is comparable to a good stretching session and full warm up prior to the race.


----------



## larzy

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but since I'm not very technical I'm gonna ask anyway 

Is it true that I won't benefit adding a Dragon Fly Red to my late 2015 iMac? On Apples page the write the following details on the audio output:

_The headphone output is automatically selected for audio output if no external Sony/Philips Digital Interface Format (S/PDIF) optical digital output device is detected. The headphone output supports a stereo data stream at bit depths of 16, 20, or 24 bits per sample and at sample rates of 44.1kHz, 48kHz, or 96kHz. The headphone output volume can be adjusted from 0.0dB to -43.0dB.
_
So the Dragon Fly red will mostly output to greater bits on my iPhone and enable hi-res playback from Apple Lossless files?


----------



## Slaphead

larzy said:


> Sorry if this is a stupid question, but since I'm not very technical I'm gonna ask anyway
> 
> Is it true that I won't benefit adding a Dragon Fly Red to my late 2015 iMac? On Apples page the write the following details on the audio output:
> 
> ...



First off don't fall into the trap of judging purely by published technical specs. All modern DAC/Amp combos support at least those specifications, but not all sound alike, nor are they all able to provide sufficient power when it comes to high impedance, and/or hard to drive headphones.

I use my DFR almost exclusively with a pair of Beyer DT1770 which are rated at 250Ω. They are quite sensitive so they will work from my iPhone and my iMacs headphone jack, but in comparison to the DFRs output there is a significant lack in dynamics and engagement in the sound. Basically the output from the standard Apple headphone port is rather dull and lifeless in comparison, partly due to it not having enough power to drive the headphones well, and partly due to the DAC, which is fine, and even good, for an "included" DAC, but it's a relatively cheap mass produced DAC designed purely for other OEMs to stick their devices.

With regards to "bits" I'm firmly in the camp that any increase above the standard 16/44 (or preferably 48) is minimal with regards to sound quality at best - I personally cannot meaningfully distinguish between a 24/192 and a 16/44 version of the same track from the same master and would totally fail a blind ABX test in such a scenario. You might be different however, but even then I'd suspect that when you hit 24/96 there'll be no further audible improvement by going higher.

The next thing is how much improvement you'll get with the DFR (or any other external DAC/Amp) over the standard headphone port. Well, that really comes down the the headphones that you're using. If you're using some really easy to drive headphones then the differences are going be less than if you're using relatively hard to drive headphone - just the ability to go louder, and shifts in overall tonality which may or may not be to your preference. A lot of people here use really expensive very high sensitivity IEMs with just an iPhone, and don't feel the need to go with an external DAC/Amp - Apple's output is mostly quite good as long as you're using headphones that fit with the power available (the iPod nano being an exception as it is really quite poor)

So as to how much you'll benefit really depends on the headphones that you're using, which at the moment we don't know as you don't list them in your profile page.


----------



## psikey

Mompy7777 said:


> This is when it gets confusing for me, some folks say that the difference between the DFR and the MOJO is not that much, and some other people says the MOJO plays in a whole different league compared to the DFR.
> I just want to have the best out of my HD 6XXs but without wasting money



Had both, went back to a DFR for use with a phone as best combination of cost/size/audio quality without need to think about charging another device.

Mojo is better on pure sound quality and can drive more demanding headphones. The DFR is great but Mojo better especially with high-def/DSD.


----------



## Basshead Paul

This is my first post on head-fi! 

I'm very interested in the Dragonfly Black. Everyone seems to love the sound. I'm wondering if anyone knows how it compared to the Fiio e17k Alpen 2 dac/amp. I just got the Fiio in the mail a few days ago. It's pretty great, but I'm thinking it might be better to get the Dragonfly Black for its superior dac. I think the Fiio e17k has a worse dac but probably a better amp than the Dragonfly Black. Anyone know if that's true? 

If the dac is better in the Dragonfly, I'm going to return the Fiio e17k and get the Dragonfly. Then, I'll find a good amp to hook up along with the Dragonfly. If anyone has ever compared the two products, or knows which has better parts, please let me know. Any info at all on this would be greatly appreciated as I have to decide soon while I can still return the Fiio. Thanks!

Also, I'm using V-Moda Crossfade 2 headphones


----------



## stuck limo (Jul 10, 2017)

Popping back into this thread. While I use the Geek Out 2A most of the time, and it absolutely destroys the DF Black in all (sound) areas, I still use the DF Black for mobile purposes, because the Samsung S7 sounds like ass. I recently took the DF Black to the local pool hall (billiards) with my S7 and V-Moda M-100 and had a blast with it. (not using UAPP, I like to Scrobble) If anyone wants a detailed rundown of the sound comparisons, I can provide one. Maybe I already have in this thread, I don't know. I'm still kind of really wanting to hear a DF Red but I don't know anyone who owns one.


----------



## canali

Question to those who know various quality DAPs quite well...what sort of products would you compare the DF red to?

I ask as I'm currently using either a Mojo and iPod Touch 6 or dragonfly red and iPod 6 for my transportable music and was looking at possibly to a DAP.

might be selling mojo and module extender this weekend and keeping DF red and iPod... or buying a new DAP....it would require wifi as I stream alot as well as use Tidal offline.


----------



## Devodonaldson

canali said:


> Question to those who know various quality DAPs quite well...what sort of products would you compare the DF red to?
> 
> I ask as I'm currently using either a Mojo and iPod Touch 6 or dragonfly red and iPod 6 for my transportable music and was looking at possibly to a DAP.
> 
> might be selling mojo and module extender this weekend and keeping DF red and iPod... or buying a new DAP....it would require wifi as I stream alot as well as use Tidal offline.


What is your reason for selling the mojo? Been using the red since last April, and I love it. Was wondering if the mojo was a worthy upgrade given the price difference. Here you are with both, looking to sell the mojo, so could you please share some of your experience with the two?


----------



## WoodyLuvr

Devodonaldson said:


> What is your reason for selling the mojo? Been using the red since last April, and I love it. Was wondering if the mojo was a worthy upgrade given the price difference. Here you are with both, looking to sell the mojo, so could you please share some of your experience with the two?


I ended up gifting my MOJO.  The MOJO's battery frustrated me during my typically long listening sessions (that seemingly instant red blinking light would royally piss me off to no end!) and the form factor wasn't working for me... way too clunky.


----------



## Devodonaldson

WoodyLuvr said:


> I ended up gifting my MOJO.  The MOJO's battery frustrated me during my typically long listening sessions (that seemingly instant red blinking light would royally piss me off to no end!) and the form factor wasn't working for me... way too clunky.


Thanks for helping to save me over $500. Those were my thoughts, but hard to talk to yourself out of things sometimes. I'll just wait on the Mytek Clef coming in Q4 with 384, DSS, and MQA decoder all in a mobile package with potentiometer. $299 listed price. Hoping for magic, as I would love to listen to MQA on the go. Still very satisfied with my DFR, minus lack of hardware volume control


----------



## canali (Jul 11, 2017)

Devodonaldson said:


> What is your reason for selling the mojo? Been using the red since last April, and I love it. Was wondering if the mojo was a worthy upgrade given the price difference. Here you are with both, looking to sell the mojo, so could you please share some of your experience with the two?



i listened to 'Tom Sawyer' repeatedly last night, going back and forth
between the mojo and df red....to me there is a difference.
is it  night and day? No
.it's not like going from SD to HD tv (too bad ..that'd make things so much easier, lol)
but imo there was a better sense of dimension, separation and esp tighter bass slam on the mojo.
just sounded somewhat more enjoyable.
but as always, YMMV...

so i just might keep it after all....i'd only get us$550 or so for it and the module w a cck cable.
to truly ramp up the sq on a DAP i'd be having to probably fork out considerably more.


----------



## zolom (Jul 12, 2017)

Having both the Mojo and the DFR. Listening mostly to Tidal (HiFi) via SE846 iems and S7 Edge.

The Mojo sounds more revealing than the DFR

I use the DFR while mobile (phone in my trousers side pocket). At home I use the Mojo connected to the input of the *Headstage* *Arrow 5TX *small amp which provides great bass (see below).


----------



## Witcher

Devodonaldson said:


> What is your reason for selling the mojo? Been using the red since last April, and I love it. Was wondering if the mojo was a worthy upgrade given the price difference. Here you are with both, looking to sell the mojo, so could you please share some of your experience with the two?



It really depends on your needs and your tastes. I owned the DFRed for 2 weeks, and I have a Mojo. I kept the mojo because I use it mainly for desktop use. Also, I preferred the Mojo's audible differences. The DFRed brings everything forward. Increased clarity, without harshness and brightness. However, the differences are there if you pay attention: The Mojo seems to have a better staging and imaging result, where the tones are layered, almost adding depth to the music, while the DFRed levels everything. I personally prefer the Mojo, though for practical reasons, the DFRed is a great product. There's no good or bad, just a matter of what you prefer.


----------



## gmalik

DfRed inside!
The amp is 9601k ess! (((
B&O hifi plus better than dfred?


----------



## canali (Jul 12, 2017)

Witcher said:


> It really depends on your needs and your tastes. I owned the DFRed for 2 weeks, and I have a Mojo. I kept the mojo because I use it mainly for desktop use. Also, I preferred the Mojo's audible differences. _*The DFRed brings everything forward. Increased clarity, without harshness and brightness. However, the differences are there if you pay attention: The Mojo seems to have a better staging and imaging result, where the tones are layered, almost adding depth to the music, while the DFRed levels everything.*_ I personally prefer the Mojo, though for practical reasons, the DFRed is a great product. There's no good or bad, just a matter of what you prefer.



exactly....better communicated than my 'adds dimension' post.
and that increased performance is to be expected: the mojo is 2-2.5 x more pricey afterall.


----------



## Devodonaldson

gmalik said:


> DfRed inside!
> The amp is 9601k ess! (((
> B&O hifi plus better than dfred?


Amp and dac chips, newer doesn't always mean better. In all honesty, implementation is the biggest factor, not just the Chip itself. The chips ised in the DFR were selected for low power usage. The implementation was to get the best sound while absolutely minimizing battery drain, and in that aspect they succeeded. I personally have not listened to the B&O, however everywhere I read, did not rate it that highly. IMO the DFR is absolutely the better buy, and won't kill your device battery


----------



## Slaphead

Devodonaldson said:


> Amp and dac chips, *newer doesn't always mean better.* In all honesty, implementation is the biggest factor, not just the Chip itself. The chips ised in the DFR were selected for low power usage. The implementation was to get the best sound while absolutely minimizing battery drain, and in that aspect they succeeded. I personally have not listened to the B&O, however everywhere I read, did not rate it that highly. IMO the DFR is absolutely the better buy, and won't kill your device battery



Just to further this, often newer simply means that the manufacturer has found ways to cut production costs while still remaining within specification - sometimes only just within specification, and then producing some marketing BS about how everything is better.


----------



## canali (Jul 13, 2017)

the tech brains behind the DF series, Gordon Rankin, quite an accomplished person with his own line of $$$ DACS
replied to me on this issue of the chips used etc:
he basically said to me in an email much earlier (and i shared it on this site many months ago) basically:
_don't get caught up in the specs of what chip etc goes into a mix...you could have 10 different DAC designers 
with the same goods at their disposal go into a room to work on a design
.. and in the end  their DACS would likely all sound different...
it's often how they implement the said goods into their approach/design that makes the difference in the end.

i'm keeping both_


----------



## gmalik

Thank you for the reply of everyone! I dropped the device very badly. 
Did anyone go like this?
Can you get an aluminium body?


----------



## Shawn39

Has anyone compared the DFR to the Resonessence Labs Hugo?  I am going to buy one of these next month but I've not heard either IRL.  
Is the Hugo worth the almost 2x price difference over the DFR?  I'm listening to Tidal Hi-Fi mostly on ATH-M50X headphones through a Bravo Ocean amp.


----------



## AudioThief

Shawn39 said:


> Has anyone compared the DFR to the Resonessence Labs Hugo?  I am going to buy one of these next month but I've not heard either IRL.
> Is the Hugo worth the almost 2x price difference over the DFR?  I'm listening to Tidal Hi-Fi mostly on ATH-M50X headphones through a Bravo Ocean amp.



Resonessence Labs Hugo? What is that? Some kind of crazy cross between Chord Hugo and Invicta? 

As far as the DFR goes.. It is a pretty impressive dac imo, amp isn't all that powerful. It is detailed, bright dacamp with a nice soundstage. It is pretty thin sounding IMO, lacks body. I think it is a decent buy if you need the portability. If you will be stationary however, there are better things out there.


----------



## Shawn39

Herus, not Hugo.    Well, I've not heard any of them, or any DAC actually, other than the one in my laptop/iPad.  So, I'm grasping for straws here and all I know is what I've read here and there about the Internet.  What would you suggest, under $500?  I'm all ears.


----------



## AudioThief

Shawn39 said:


> Herus, not Hugo.    Well, I've not heard any of them, or any DAC actually, other than the one in my laptop/iPad.  So, I'm grasping for straws here and all I know is what I've read here and there about the Internet.  What would you suggest, under $500?  I'm all ears.



Well, it really depends what you want to change in your m50s if anything. More bass? More controlled bass? The reality is I don't think the M50s scale all that impressively, and certaintly don't need a powerful amplifier.. So, I would recommend sometihng simple like a Schiit Modi or a dragonfly black or red. Honestly, I would recommend you use the money to upgrade your entire setup including HPs.


----------



## Shawn39

AudioThief said:


> Well, it really depends what you want to change in your m50s if anything. More bass? More controlled bass? The reality is I don't think the M50s scale all that impressively, and certaintly don't need a powerful amplifier.. So, I would recommend sometihng simple like a Schiit Modi or a dragonfly black or red. Honestly, I would recommend you use the money to upgrade your entire setup including HPs.



Hey, I just got these headphones last week!  (Honestly)

I just want better sound, basically.  I threw out my $35 Sony headphones and got the AT's ==>  Better sound.  I changed from Apple music to Tidal Hi-Fi => better sound. I have a little extra cash and want to keep the trend going.  Better sound!

Also, I am super-duper bothered by the digital "glare" and distortion that you get from brick-wall filters and the like.  The one thing I can say about high-res recordings is that they are easy to listen to for me.  I want that - no digital "glare".  I'm hoping a nice DAC will help me along that path.


----------



## AudioThief

Shawn39 said:


> Hey, I just got these headphones last week!  (Honestly)
> 
> I just want better sound, basically.  I threw out my $35 Sony headphones and got the AT's ==>  Better sound.  I changed from Apple music to Tidal Hi-Fi => better sound. I have a little extra cash and want to keep the trend going.  Better sound!
> 
> Also, I am super-duper bothered by the digital "glare" and distortion that you get from brick-wall filters and the like.  The one thing I can say about high-res recordings is that they are easy to listen to for me.  I want that - no digital "glare".  I'm hoping a nice DAC will help me along that path.



Ah, gotcha. Congratulations on your new purchase! Well, the m50s certaintly don't *need* an amplifier. I think really any DAC should up the sound quality - just getting the DAC outside of your computer helps a lot with blackness. I think for the m50s.... Definitely look into the dragnfly black!


----------



## Devodonaldson

AudioThief said:


> Resonessence Labs Hugo? What is that? Some kind of crazy cross between Chord Hugo and Invicta?
> 
> As far as the DFR goes.. It is a pretty impressive dac imo, amp isn't all that powerful. It is detailed, bright dacamp with a nice soundstage. It is pretty thin sounding IMO, lacks body. I think it is a decent buy if you need the portability. If you will be stationary however, there are better things out there.


Get the DFR, not the DFB. The DFB is a warmer DAC/Amp. The DFR will sound a little more reference, which is a good thing. I had used my DFR with my V-Moda m100, upgraded to V-MODA CF2W, for portable use. Was using with my bass mod AKG Q701 at home, and have now upgraded to Audioquest Nightowl Carbon. The DFR plays very well. For darker, less reference sounding cans, you don't want a dark sounding DAC/amp as well. M50x is a good step. The DFR will sound better with better headphones.


----------



## stuck limo

Devodonaldson said:


> Get the DFR, not the DFB. The DFB is a warmer DAC/Amp. The DFR will sound a little more reference, which is a good thing. I had used my DFR with my V-Moda m100, upgraded to V-MODA CF2W, for portable use. Was using with my bass mod AKG Q701 at home, and have now upgraded to Audioquest Nightowl Carbon. The DFR plays very well. For darker, less reference sounding cans, you don't want a dark sounding DAC/amp as well. M50x is a good step. The DFR will sound better with better headphones.



If possible, can you describe the DF Black + V-Moda M100 vs the DF Red + M100?


----------



## Devodonaldson

stuck limo said:


> If possible, can you describe the DF Black + V-Moda M100 vs the DF Red + M100?


Well with the m100 power isn't an issue, as both can drive it to ridiculous levels. The main difference, to my ears, DFR IS A LITTLE brighter, more reference feel. Bass is still very present, but the Black sounds a little darker to my ears. DFB treble is a little laid back as well as the midst when compared to voices.  DFR gives you better layering throughout the frequency spectrum, with better depth and body. More bass body, and reaches deeper. More detail in the mids and treble. With the m100 already being recessed in the mids, the extra detail and layering with the DFR is a plus. BTW, enjoyed the booking bass on my m100, but absolutely enjoy EVERYTHING else on the Crossfade 2 'wireless' more. Don't use it wireless of course


----------



## cykelvin

psikey said:


> Had both, went back to a DFR for use with a phone as best combination of cost/size/audio quality without need to think about charging another device.
> 
> Mojo is better on pure sound quality and can drive more demanding headphones. The DFR is great but Mojo better especially with high-def/DSD.



I have both as well.  I think both are great amps.  DFR is great using it with a phone.  But I definitely enjoy the Mojo more.


----------



## psikey

cykelvin said:


> I have both as well.  I think both are great amps.  DFR is great using it with a phone.  But I definitely enjoy the Mojo more.



Just been A-B testing my DFR to Mojo again using Tidal via UAPP app on my S8 and the Mojo still sounds better but if you can't justify cost of a Mojo or want more portable DAC then you wouldn't be disappointed with the DFR.

Both have beautiful black backgrounds with my sensitive SE846's too.

Get a Hugo 2 trial unit to test soon so see how much that improves over these two.


----------



## cykelvin

psikey said:


> Just been A-B testing my DFR to Mojo again using Tidal via UAPP app on my S8 and the Mojo still sounds better but if you can't justify cost of a Mojo or want more portable DAC then you wouldn't be disappointed with the DFR.
> 
> Both have beautiful black backgrounds with my sensitive SE846's too.
> 
> Get a Hugo 2 trial unit to test soon so see how much that improves over these two.



Any chance to post your feedback on the Hugo 2 after you tested it.  I am very curious too on how much difference a $2000US amp makes compare to the DFR and Mojo...


----------



## psikey (Jul 13, 2017)

Will do. Have to write a review as part of the UK Tour anyway. Should get it end of next week or the following.

I'm sure it's not going to be justifiable on cost vs SQ improvement but then that's the case with this hobby striving for perfection.

I stopped pursuing IEM's after getting my SE846's or you just keep blowing large chunks of cash (nearly got Noble Encore though last week with the 20% off but resisted.)


----------



## Devodonaldson

Got the DFR last year. Used it with m100, Q701, CF2W. Just recently got the Nightowl Carbon, and I'm in love. Been in love with the nighthawk since I heard it 2 years ago. Was always in best buy listening for almost an hour at a time. As prices came down I was saving up to get, then the Carbons released. Demoed both at Canjam. Loved both. The closed back drew me due to the better isolation, especially when I already had a open back that I enjoyed. With the DFR I love the Nightowl. Couldn't justify dropping another $600 on a DAC when the music I listen too just doesn't really come in DSD. 24-96 is kinda the limit, with a lot still at 16/44.1. The only DAC that. I may be holding out for is the Mytek Clef. High PCM resolution, but the main factor is the MQA decoder. With Android and UAPP, we now have the ability to listen to MQA from Tidal on the go, because that app will stream it to a DAC with a decoder. As the Red is just a renderers, there is value to the clef, along with volume pot, and Bluetooth, the last of which I don't really care about. I reiterate, DFR + Nightowl is awesome!


----------



## stuck limo

Devodonaldson said:


> Well with the m100 power isn't an issue, as both can drive it to ridiculous levels. The main difference, to my ears, DFR IS A LITTLE brighter, more reference feel. Bass is still very present, but the Black sounds a little darker to my ears. DFB treble is a little laid back as well as the midst when compared to voices.  DFR gives you better layering throughout the frequency spectrum, with better depth and body. More bass body, and reaches deeper. More detail in the mids and treble. With the m100 already being recessed in the mids, the extra detail and layering with the DFR is a plus. BTW, enjoyed the booking bass on my m100, but absolutely enjoy EVERYTHING else on the Crossfade 2 'wireless' more. Don't use it wireless of course



Thanks for that. Was really curious to know that, since I generally use the XS or M-100 on the DFB.


----------



## Devodonaldson

stuck limo said:


> Thanks for that. Was really curious to know that, since I generally use the XS or M-100 on the DFB.


Ok, so you have both. I did as well. Loved the mids on the XS, and the bass on the m100. CF2W is a great hybrid of the two. Better mids and cleaner treble than XS, a little less boom but tighter bass than M100. trade in program gives you good discount on the CF2W. I got rid of my M100 to get the CF2W


----------



## stuck limo

Devodonaldson said:


> Ok, so you have both. I did as well. Loved the mids on the XS, and the bass on the m100. CF2W is a great hybrid of the two. Better mids and cleaner treble than XS, a little less boom but tighter bass than M100. trade in program gives you good discount on the CF2W. I got rid of my M100 to get the CF2W



I have extensively listened to the CF2W and for the money (to ME) I don't think they're that much better than the ATH-m40x, if any better. I have the m40x and love them. I listened to the CF2W and loved them, but not at 300 dollars vs the $80 I paid for the m40x.


----------



## Devodonaldson

stuck limo said:


> I have extensively listened to the CF2W and for the money (to ME) I don't think they're that much better than the ATH-m40x, if any better. I have the m40x and love them. I listened to the CF2W and loved them, but not at 300 dollars vs the $80 I paid for the m40x.


Heard wonderful things about m40. Never heard them. Love styling of CF2W. GOT THEM FOR $200 as a trade in for V-Moda customer. My go to portable cans.


----------



## TheRealDz

I always try to go with the least price unless proven otherwise. I own both the Mojo and DFR, and don't think the sound quality is close - the Mojo is superior in every regard. My reference cans are the HD650s, and I don't they are agood match at all for the DFR:  they sound conjested at every volume. 




Mompy7777 said:


> Thank you so much for that, another question :
> Let's say I make the effort and buy a Mojo Chord, will I feel a big difference that justifies paying more than twice the price of a DFR? Always with the HD650s in mind
> 
> Thank you


----------



## Brahmsian (Jul 16, 2017)

Brahmsian said:


> the music began to clip/distort. At that point, I started wondering whether the problem was a) the microphone they used to record the symphony b) my headphones or 3) my amp (DragonFly Red). I settled on the latter


Actually there is another possibility: it might be my computer. The distortion occurs sporadically, and always with the DFR. But it could be a problem with the USB ports on my computer. Even though USB hasn't given me problems with any other device, all my other USB devices aren't audio related, so it's hard to tell. And because the problem is relatively infrequent, plugging the DFR into another laptop won't necessarily solve the mystery. If anybody else is having distortion problems with the DFR, let me know.


----------



## stuck limo

I maybe missed it, but was an update/fix ever provided for the INSANE loud volume levels on the Dragonfly Black when using Windows 10? [ie, Volume Level 3 would be at near max volume]


----------



## 435279

stuck limo said:


> I maybe missed it, but was an update/fix ever provided for the INSANE loud volume levels on the Dragonfly Black when using Windows 10? [ie, Volume Level 3 would be at near max volume]



Not that I'm aware of, but I would be very interested in this too, The Tidal desktop app has on occasion randomly gone to full volume, not a nice experience.  Some kind of volume limit would be very good.


----------



## stuck limo

stuck limo said:


> I maybe missed it, but was an update/fix ever provided for the INSANE loud volume levels on the Dragonfly Black when using Windows 10? [ie, Volume Level 3 would be at near max volume]





SteveOliver said:


> Not that I'm aware of, but I would be very interested in this too, The Tidal desktop app has on occasion randomly gone to full volume, not a nice experience.  Some kind of volume limit would be very good.


 
Does anyone know if this was an issue on the Dragonfly Red as well?


----------



## 435279

stuck limo said:


> Does anyone know if this was an issue on the Dragonfly Red as well?



Mine is the Red, I didn't notice the OP's mention of the Black. It seems the same issue affects both, my DFR gets very loud above level 6 in Windows with most of my headphones.


----------



## VRacer-111 (Jul 19, 2017)

stuck limo said:


> Does anyone know if this was an issue on the Dragonfly Red as well?


I don't have any issues with volume on Windows 10. If just using the DFR standalone on my laptop, run windows volume slider for the DFR at 20 and Foobar @ -10dB usually. Adjust volume in Foobar as neccessary. This is using the TH-X00 PH's...25ohm and fairly efficient headphones.


----------



## CactusPete23

VRacer-111 said:


> I don't have any issues with volume on Windows 10. If just using the DFR standalone on my laptop, run windows volume slider for the DFR at 20 and Foobar @ -10dB. Adjust volume in Foobar as neccessary.



My experience with DFR and Windows 10 is same as VRacer.  Zero volume problems.   With any amp, I tend to start at low volume after turning on, or restarting...  But never had the DFR jump in volume, unless I increased the volume myself.


----------



## WoodyLuvr

No volume issues with my Black via Windows 10 here as well.


----------



## Donie Ray Samba-an

Is the iOS 10.3.x bug already addressed in 10.3.3? Has anyone tried?


----------



## Gonzbull (Jul 20, 2017)

Yup no problems here on iOS 10.3.3


----------



## Duncan

Gonzbull said:


> Yup no problems here on iOS 10.3.3


Mostly true, however there is (IME) a brief stutter (a fraction of a second) when it would have cut off in previous versions (this is on beta 5 of 10.3.3)


----------



## jegnyc

Duncan said:


> Mostly true, however there is (IME) a brief stutter (a fraction of a second) when it would have cut off in previous versions (this is on beta 5 of 10.3.3)



Several others have reported that for the release version of 10.3.3 on the Apple website.

Sounds like I should still stick with 10.2.1.


----------



## Nevi (Jul 24, 2017)

I use both red and black DF DACs to computer (red) and black to my Sony phone Z5. They are IMO the best that have happened to my phone sound. I use NAD HP50 headphones. The result is better than I had hoped. Long live Gordon Rankin.


----------



## Gonzbull

jegnyc said:


> Several others have reported that for the release version of 10.3.3 on the Apple website.
> 
> Sounds like I should still stick with 10.2.1.



Care to share some links to these reports? Still working smoothly for me thankfully and hope it stays that way with iOS 11 on the way.


----------



## jegnyc

Gonzbull said:


> Care to share some links to these reports? Still working smoothly for me thankfully and hope it stays that way with iOS 11 on the way.


https://discussions.apple.com/thread/7932507?start=75&tstart=0

Go to the last page.


----------



## Basshead Paul (Jul 24, 2017)

This is a wonderful thread. I own both the Dragonfly Black and Red. I'm somewhat new to the audiophile mindset, but I am instantly obsessed and want to learn all I can. I have yet another question about the Dragonfly Red to add to the pile, and I'd be very grateful from input. This is the best audio forum I've seen so I trust all your input.

Here's my question:. Which of these setups will result in the best sound quality?

1. Hifi Tidal on my Samsung Galaxy S8+ going to the Dragonfly Red _*directly*_ to my headphones?
Or..
2. Hifi Tidal on my Samsung Galaxy S8+ going to the Dragonfly Red, then to the line in of my Fiio Alpen 2 amp, then to my headphones?

Basically, is it better or worse to include the amp portion of the Fiio Alpen 2, or will that worsen the quality of the signal from the Dragonfly Red, due to double amping or other issues?

Also, I'm wondering if it's bad for any of my equipment in that setup, seeing as the volume coming from my Dragonfly Red is VERY high on its own. So I turn the volume on the Fiio down very low. Where does that extra volume going into the Fiio go?

Thanks if you read this far. Any input at all would be wonderful as I'm very interested in this because I love my Dragonfly Red. I plan on getting a better amp soon, but first I need to know if it's a bad idea to even use a separate external amp with the Red.

My headphones are the new V-Moda Crossfade 2 Wireless, which I am using wired of course. I know V-Moda doesn't have the best reputation among audiophiles, but these new Crossfade 2's are by far their most audiophile-friendly headphones yet. I think they sound great!


----------



## endgame

Basshead Paul said:


> This is a wonderful thread. I own both the Dragonfly Black and Red. I'm somewhat new to the audiophile mindset, but I am instantly obsessed and want to learn all I can. I have yet another question about the Dragonfly Red to add to the pile, and I'd be very grateful from input. This is the best audio forum I've seen so I trust all your input.
> 
> Here's my question:. Which of these setups will result in the best sound quality?
> 
> ...



You can use the Dragonfly Red as a pre-amp. Plug it in and turn the volume all the way up to max. Then you can use your Fiio to adjust the master volume. Try that and see how it sounds to you and then choose whichever sounds best. But in all honesty, I don't think it's necessary as the Crossfade 2 has a sensitivity of 107 and an impedance of only 30 ohms. Even the Dragonfly Red, alone, is overkill. But YMMV.


----------



## Basshead Paul

endgame said:


> You can use the Dragonfly Red as a pre-amp. Plug it in and turn the volume all the way up to max. Then you can use your Fiio to adjust the master volume. Try that and see how it sounds to you and then choose whichever sounds best. But in all honesty, I don't think it's necessary as the Crossfade 2 has a sensitivity of 107 and an impedance of only 30 ohms. Even the Dragonfly Red, alone, is overkill. But YMMV.



Thanks endgame. That helps a lot.

Do you know of any closed back overear headphones under $350 that would make better use of the Dragonfly Red? I could still return my Crossfade 2 for a few more days.


----------



## endgame

Basshead Paul said:


> Thanks endgame. That helps a lot.
> 
> Do you know of any closed back overear headphones under $350 that would make better use of the Dragonfly Red? I could still return my Crossfade 2 for a few more days.



I definitely wasn't knocking your headphones. If you like how they sound, then there's no reason to buy a higher impedance headphone just so your Dragonfly has to work harder. I was just saying that the Crossfade simply isn't a demanding headphone. It could play loud straight from a phone and either Dragonlfy will supply more than enough amping, so double amping is like strapping a Hummer engine onto the back of a Ford Fiesta.


----------



## VRacer-111 (Jul 24, 2017)

Basshead Paul said:


> This is a wonderful thread. I own both the Dragonfly Black and Red. I'm somewhat new to the audiophile mindset, but I am instantly obsessed and want to learn all I can. I have yet another question about the Dragonfly Red to add to the pile, and I'd be very grateful from input. This is the best audio forum I've seen so I trust all your input.
> 
> Here's my question:. Which of these setups will result in the best sound quality?
> 
> ...



Well, It depends...

I've tried my DFR with 3 amps: Meier Audio JAZZ-ff, Gustard H10, and my HT NAD C275BEE stereo amp driving Polk Audio RTi-A5 speakers. Did not like it as much with the JAZZ-ff compared to the other two. While not bad sounding, it just wasn't as good as good sounding to me as straight out the DFR. For some reason it was just a little less clear/clean sounding. The bass was okay, mids okay, and highs were a little more and riding the line for me. It was a VERY slight difference, but there was a difference. The JAZZ-ff did much better paired with the Schitt Bifrost.

Now the DFR out to the Gustard H10 is an entirely different story. YES OH YES, does is sound better! More detail everywhere and the bass is just INSANE in both impact and extension. A most excellent pairing - the very clear, detailed, and neutral DFR with the very detailed, precise, warmer, and smoother high current Gustard H10.

And using the DFR with the NAD C275BEE stereo amp is most excellent as well... my HT had never presented music like it did through my laptop with DFR running analog bypass directly to the NAD C275BEE. Finally heard what the C275BEE amp could really do after having it for several years... absolutely a stellar amp when getting properly fed. I had been slightly dissapointed with it being driven out of both my OPPO BD player and Yamaha SACD player - while it did not sound bad, the bass and dynamics just seemed a little lacking. No lacking with the DFR!

I think if you are feeding a high power amp that is on the warm side and smooth with lots of precision and detail in presentation then you will really love using the DFR in line-out mode. Normal/weak neutral amps, not so much difference from just using the DFR stand alone.

I will say the Fostex TH-X00 pair extremely well with the DFR...whether run stand alone or feeding an external amp. The DFR feeding the Gustard H10 with my modded TH-X00 PH plugged in is a hard experience to describe though...

Best way I can describe it, is like this:


----------



## Gonzbull

Cheers for the link. That sucks that people are having problems. I still haven't experienced any glitches and I use this setup every night for a little listen before bed. iPhone 5s, CCk3 and DFB. Excellent source for my Sennheiser Momentum2 and Tidal Hi-Fi. 


jegnyc said:


> https://discussions.apple.com/thread/7932507?start=75&tstart=0
> 
> Go to the last page.


s


----------



## Devodonaldson

Basshead Paul said:


> This is a wonderful thread. I own both the Dragonfly Black and Red. I'm somewhat new to the audiophile mindset, but I am instantly obsessed and want to learn all I can. I have yet another question about the Dragonfly Red to add to the pile, and I'd be very grateful from input. This is the best audio forum I've seen so I trust all your input.
> 
> Here's my question:. Which of these setups will result in the best sound quality?
> 
> ...


DFR owner, as well as CF2W owner, so we have a lot in common.  Have a Fiio E11, and Cayin C5. Out of DFR, E11, and Cayin, DFR has the cleanest upper mid-range and treble. The only "issue" is that the low end, including the sub bass is a little lighter than I would like. The e11 and the Cayin are on the warm side of neutral as far as sound. So adding either, the treble lessens a bit, not quite as resolved, but the low end  is more present. Should be the same for your Fiio. Adding the amp will slightly decrease overall clarity, but you'll hear some extra heft in the lower mids and low end. As far as volume goes, of course it's best to keep DFR volume at Max, however that gives too much volume to most amps and not much control to volume. DFR digital volume control results in minimal if any degradation to sq with the DAC at 70% volume or above plugged into amp. I use approx 89% dav volume, allowing my amp to function at less than 70% full volume. Most amps with analog volume suffer channel I'm balance below say 2 of 9 on the volume potentiometer. That's a good place to start, though YMMV. Happy listening


----------



## Schwejk

Hi guys, so, I feel like a complete idiot. I am trying to connect my DFR to Samsung A5 2016, but there is no sound. I've tried few OTG cables, including original DragonTail. What am I doing wrong? I do not want to buy UAPP because I am afraid that the UAPP won't help in this case.
Any solutions? Thx in advance


----------



## Slaphead

Schwejk said:


> Hi guys, so, I feel like a complete idiot. I am trying to connect my DFR to Samsung A5 2016, but there is no sound. I've tried few OTG cables, including original DragonTail. What am I doing wrong? I do not want to buy UAPP because I am afraid that the UAPP won't help in this case.
> Any solutions? Thx in advance



If the model number of your A5 is SM-G520F then it officially supports OTG, which means it should work with the Dragonfly

If it‘s another model then it‘s likely that it doesn‘t support OTG out of the box, and you‘ll need to root the device and install a custom ROM to get OTG functionality.

The problem with buying Samsung is that they often release totally different specs of the same model into different territories - Meaning, for example, that the 2016 A5 released in Korea may support OTG, but the 2016 A5 released elsewhere may not. So you‘re never quite sure of what you‘re getting with Samsung in terms of function.


----------



## Devodonaldson

Schwejk said:


> Hi guys, so, I feel like a complete idiot. I am trying to connect my DFR to Samsung A5 2016, but there is no sound. I've tried few OTG cables, including original DragonTail. What am I doing wrong? I do not want to buy UAPP because I am afraid that the UAPP won't help in this case.
> Any solutions? Thx in advance


Step one. Have you updated the DFR to the new firmware? Step 2. (You need UAPP to fix the DFR internal volume. Here is the link to 20 minute trial to make sure it works properly. http://www.extreamsd.com/index.php/uapp-trial Open UAPP allow it to have control of the DFR, start playing something, go to hardware volume in settings and eaise hardware volume to about 75-80%. Press back to exit UAPP and allow the app to close. Now you should have DFR internal volume set, and ability to use Android apps,and Android volume control until the time that you disconnect DFR, and will need to repeat these steps. If it works for you, as it should, then purchase full version.


----------



## WoodyLuvr

Concur, buy UAPP you won't regret it.  Worked great on my A5, S5, S6 and now with Huawei P10 Plus.


----------



## Schwejk

Devodonaldson said:


> Step one. Have you updated the DFR to the new firmware? Step 2. (You need UAPP to fix the DFR internal volume. Here is the link to 20 minute trial to make sure it works properly. http://www.extreamsd.com/index.php/uapp-trial Open UAPP allow it to have control of the DFR, start playing something, go to hardware volume in settings and eaise hardware volume to about 75-80%. Press back to exit UAPP and allow the app to close. Now you should have DFR internal volume set, and ability to use Android apps,and Android volume control until the time that you disconnect DFR, and will need to repeat these steps. If it works for you, as it should, then purchase full version.



Great! Fixed - or at least I can play audio through UAPP, but not thru Spotify etc. Guess I gonna have to move to Tidal.


----------



## Devodonaldson

Schwejk said:


> Great! Fixed - or at least I can play audio through UAPP, but not thru Spotify etc. Guess I gonna have to move to Tidal.


I use it with Tidal, Google aplay, YouTube, Netflix, etc. Have up apdated to the newest firmware through the Audioquest application on your computer? Without updated firmware, you will not receive updated volume on apps outside UAPP


----------



## florence

I have Paw Gold and just purchased a pair of HD600s which are on the way. I have tried this combo and LPG drives the HD600 in high gain efficiently, really liked that but still seeking for better. Should I buy any model of the Dragonfly for my MacBook Pro in order to juice HD600s better than LPG? Anyone?


----------



## Schwejk

Devodonaldson said:


> I use it with Tidal, Google aplay, YouTube, Netflix, etc. Have up apdated to the newest firmware through the Audioquest application on your computer? Without updated firmware, you will not receive updated volume on apps outside UAPP


Yes, the firmware is up to date. I was trying to make it work in YT or Spotify, but unsuccessfully. Still, at least it plays FLAC files through UAPP. 

I noticed weird thing - playing through my Samsung A5, the sound is noticeably warmer than when playing from my PC or notebook. I do not use any EQ. Is there some sort of setting in UAPP for this or is it just a property of my Samsung as a source?


----------



## Marc Roberts

Devodonaldson said:


> ... Open UAPP allow it to have control of the DFR, start playing something, go to hardware volume in settings and eaise hardware volume to about 75-80%. Press back to exit UAPP and allow the app to close. Now you should have DFR internal volume set, and ability to use Android apps,and Android volume control until the time that you disconnect DFR ...



Signed up to say thanks Devodonaldson, I've not been able to use my DFR properly with my Google Pixel until now. Thanks to your help I can use it properly with full volume. Very happy bunny 

I have it working system wide, Spotify, Chrome, YouTube, everywhere after setting the volume to max in UAPP (didn't even need to start playing any music), exiting the app and knocking the system volume down to about half before playing anything.

So thanks again!


----------



## Devodonaldson

Schwejk said:


> Yes, the firmware is up to date. I was trying to make it work in YT or Spotify, but unsuccessfully. Still, at least it plays FLAC files through UAPP.
> 
> I noticed weird thing - playing through my Samsung A5, the sound is noticeably warmer than when playing from my PC or notebook. I do not use any EQ. Is there some sort of setting in UAPP for this or is it just a property of my Samsung as a source?


See post #3649 That should not be the limit of your functionality. Regarding extra warmth, haven't experienced that. I also use bit perfect playback through UAPP, So no eq is available.


----------



## WoodyLuvr (Jul 26, 2017)

Never noticed any warmth either; bit perfect playback here as well.


----------



## Devodonaldson

WoodyLuvr said:


> Never noticed any warmth either; bit perfect playback here as well.


Agreed. DFR is actually a bit of a bright DAC. Not as much of a bass response as I would like, but that is what an amp is for. Mids and treble are sweet, with no sibilance from the treble, and looking forward to my JDS C5 to add more to the low end


----------



## 435279

Devodonaldson said:


> Agreed. DFR is actually a bit of a bright DAC. Not as much of a bass response as I would like, but that is what an amp is for. Mids and treble are sweet, with no sibilance from the treble, and looking forward to my JDS C5 to add more to the low end



Would it not be better to add some EQ to improve the bass response? I would have thought the DFR has plenty of output power without adding an amp, unless using difficult to drive headphones.


----------



## Devodonaldson

SteveOliver said:


> Would it not be better to add some EQ to improve the bass response? I would have thought the DFR has plenty of output power without adding an amp, unless using difficult to drive headphones.


I use my DFR with bit perfect playback, so no external eq-ing is available. On an Android device the DAC is handling audio output, so no software eq can affect the sound signature. Also, an amplifier isn't JUST about adding more power. When headphones are rated regarding their resistance. 16ohm, 32ohm, 60ohm, etc., That is at 1khz freq. Lower frequencies take significantly more power to drive, meaning that you may not receive the cleanest or most effective sub bass from your headphones if underpowered. Now with the DFR, power isn't the issue, however, the OTHER thing an amp does is change the sound signature, just like a DAC. Some amps are warmer sounding, colder, etc. The DFR is definitely a bright DAC, so you get good detail, etc. Bass is tight and articulate, but not excessively booming. A particular amp may simply produce a warmer signature and offer a more welcomed bass response, for your ears. Or, an amp may have a dedicated bass boost, raising the sub bass freq an extra few db.


----------



## WoodyLuvr

DragonFly Black and MQA

https://archimago.blogspot.com/2017/07/measurements-audioquest-dragonfly-black.html


----------



## Basshead Paul

This has probably been asked before, but does anyone out there use the Dragonfly Red with Sennheiser HD650 headphones?

If so, how well do they work together?

I have the DFR and my only headphones are V Moda Crossfade 2. I can get Sennheiser HD650 for $200 new, so I am hoping they work well with the DFR.  I've heard great things about the HD650 but I haven't been able to find any opinions on how they pair with Dragonfly Red yet.


----------



## endgame

Basshead Paul said:


> This has probably been asked before, but does anyone out there use the Dragonfly Red with Sennheiser HD650 headphones?
> 
> If so, how well do they work together?
> 
> I have the DFR and my only headphones are V Moda Crossfade 2. I can get Sennheiser HD650 for $200 new, so I am hoping they work well with the DFR.  I've heard great things about the HD650 but I haven't been able to find any opinions on how they pair with Dragonfly Red yet.



They sound very good with DFR.


----------



## stuck limo

Took my Dragonfly Black over to my friend's house. He plugged into his laptop with Windows 7 and Foobar, we immediately got issues. The music would pause/freeze and then continue playing. Happened twice within a minute. Removed the Dragonfly Black and went back to his other gear.


----------



## Devodonaldson

Basshead Paul said:


> This has probably been asked before, but does anyone out there use the Dragonfly Red with Sennheiser HD650 headphones?
> 
> If so, how well do they work together?
> 
> I have the DFR and my only headphones are V Moda Crossfade 2. I can get Sennheiser HD650 for $200 new, so I am hoping they work well with the DFR.  I've heard great things about the HD650 but I haven't been able to find any opinions on how they pair with Dragonfly Red yet.


As you know, the Dragonfly Red is a tad bright and very detailed. Seeing as the 650 are a little laid back, the DFR will bring that extra detail. Same result with the Nightowl/Nighthawk and the DFR, which is my preference


----------



## PeteMtl

endgame said:


> They sound very good with DFR.



I agree. Very good match. As a matter of fact, I strongly think that my Massdrop/Sennheiser HD6xx (same as HD650) 200$ + DFR 200$ cannot be beaten for 400$! (Well add 50$ for the USB3 Apple CCK for iOS souce playback...). Just my humble opinion...


----------



## Basshead Paul

Devodonaldson, I think you're right. I like the detail of the DFR, but the brightness of it is a bit too much for my liking. So, it's great the hd650 is laid back and will even it out a bit. I'm assuming the sound will still be just as detailed?

PeteMtl, it's funny you mention that because I literally just ordered the massdrop sennheiser hd6xx about half an hour ago. I plan to use them with the DFR, so glad to hear the pairing works well. I agree it's gotta be the best bang for the buck for $400! I might use my Fiio Alpen 2 amp to warm it up a bit too, depending on how it sounds, but I don't want to lose any detail... So I'll see. Can't wait for the HD6xx but I'll have to wait until Christmas because they don't ship until then.

Totally different topic, but I've been using USB Audio Player PRO with my Dragonfly Red, and I'm not sure what I should do with the volume controls. Is it best to max the hardware volume, or the software volume? If I don't use the bitperfect setting in UAPP, will it still be bitperfect anyway because the DFR itself has bitperfect volume? Or am I losing quality when I lower any of the volumes?


----------



## WoodyLuvr (Jul 28, 2017)

Basshead Paul said:


> Devodonaldson, I think you're right. I like the detail of the DFR, but the brightness of it is a bit too much for my liking. So, it's great the hd650 is laid back and will even it out a bit. I'm assuming the sound will still be just as detailed?
> 
> PeteMtl, it's funny you mention that because I literally just ordered the massdrop sennheiser hd6xx about half an hour ago. I plan to use them with the DFR, so glad to hear the pairing works well. I agree it's gotta be the best bang for the buck for $400! I might use my Fiio Alpen 2 amp to warm it up a bit too, depending on how it sounds, but I don't want to lose any detail... So I'll see. Can't wait for the HD6xx but I'll have to wait until Christmas because they don't ship until then.
> 
> Totally different topic, but I've been using USB Audio Player PRO with my Dragonfly Red, and I'm not sure what I should do with the volume controls. Is it best to max the hardware volume, or the software volume? If I don't use the bitperfect setting in UAPP, will it still be bitperfect anyway because the DFR itself has bitperfect volume? Or am I losing quality when I lower any of the volumes?


I have found with UAPP that the bitperfect option simply just removes the equalizer options and nothing else on my Black.  Volume seems unchanged to me though the Black has a different volume control than the red; maybe others have experienced something different with the Red and will chime in.

*To my ears* there wasn't a huge difference between the Red and Black. I ended up buying the Black with the JitterBug and not the Red model as I preferred the Black DragonFly's ever so slightly darker/softer (more mellow?) sound signature and lower volume control... it was much easier to fine tune and adjust to a lower volume than on the Red which was much, much louder due to its higher amp output.  So I too did find the Red to be slightly too bright as many have commented in the thread above.


----------



## Thor71 (Aug 2, 2017)

As said in my previous post I'm actually very happy with the following combo:

iPhone 6s > v-moda forza metallo > DFB

Recently, I've also purchased the Noble X but what it seems here is that there's not so much difference in terms of SQ by playing the X with or without the DFB through the 6s.

Do you think guys that DFR will drive the X better than the Black?

Would you spend 100$ more?


----------



## Donie Ray Samba-an

Thor71 said:


> As said in my previous post I'm actually very happy with the following combo:
> 
> iPhone 6s > v-moda forza metallo > DFB
> 
> ...



What iOS version are you using with your iPhone 6S? Do you not experience any audio dropout while using DFR plus Apple USB CCK?


----------



## Thor71

Donie Ray Samba-an said:


> What iOS version are you using with your iPhone 6S? Do you not experience any audio dropout while using DFR plus Apple USB CCK?


Just some random buzzing noise after updated to 10.3.3 and I'm using CCK3 with my DFB


----------



## Donie Ray Samba-an

Onny Izwan said:


> iPhone 6s, Sony XBA-Z5 (+ MUC-M12SM2) , AudioQuest Jitterbug, AudioQuest DragonFly Red



Are you still using this set up? What iOS version are you in right now? If on iOS 10.3.3, are you experiencing the infamous audio dropout issue? Did you not have any problem using the old version of CCK? Sorry for al lot of questions. I really am planning to buy DFR to pair with my iPhone but I am currently on iOS 10.3.3. 

Thanks


----------



## Basshead Paul

Any recommendations on the best headphone amp to pair with the Dragonfly Red to add more bass punch/slam? 

I'm thinking a desktop amp would do it best, but portable is fine if the bass is very good. The only thing I don't love about the Dragonfly Red is there isn't enough bass slam/punch. So I'm hoping I can fix that with a good amp, hopefully under $200.

Thanks in advance for any input!


----------



## VRacer-111 (Aug 6, 2017)

Basshead Paul said:


> Any recommendations on the best headphone amp to pair with the Dragonfly Red to add more bass punch/slam?
> 
> I'm thinking a desktop amp would do it best, but portable is fine if the bass is very good. The only thing I don't love about the Dragonfly Red is there isn't enough bass slam/punch. So I'm hoping I can fix that with a good amp, hopefully under $200.
> 
> Thanks in advance for any input!



If you are a DIY/modder I would recommend the Gustard H10, if not then wouldn't recommend it as it needs mods for better reliability (mainly heat sinks for the voltage regulators). Works extremely well with the DFR in lineout mode, absolutely beautiful match between them. Very clean sounding with lots of power behind it. Want it even better than stock then you can swap out opamps. Burson V6 Classic opamps make it even cleaner and more intense -  subbass will vibrate your head @ 9 o'clock knob position with TH-X00 PH. Going from the Meier JAZZ-ff to the Gustard H10 with the DFR was a big step up in detail and everything bass related at a much lower price. The Meier JAZZ-ff doesn't really sync right with the DFR, its much better paired with the Schiit Bifrost.


----------



## ninetylol

How would i use the Digital Volume Control of the Red under Windows? My Red arrives tomorrow and i dont know how it will work out yet.

But using windows volume control would certainly not adjust the hardware digital volume control but just lower the input signal into the Red right?


----------



## VRacer-111 (Aug 8, 2017)

ninetylol said:


> How would i use the Digital Volume Control of the Red under Windows? My Red arrives tomorrow and i dont know how it will work out yet.
> 
> But using windows volume control would certainly not adjust the hardware digital volume control but just lower the input signal into the Red right?



If just using the DFR standalone, you adjust windows slider as needed to get your listening volume. I generally set Foobar2K gain to -10dB then adjust the DFR windows slider as needed to get my standard listening volume (generally 20% for ~75dB). Then I adjust the gain in Foobar2K as needed for any adjustments afterwards like upping level for classical tracks... Once you set the DFR windows volume you shouldn't need to touch it, use the volume in each application used to adjust sound level as needed.

If using the DFR in line out mode for outputting to another amp, set windows DFR slider to 100% volume and control sound level through the external amp.


----------



## d0od

My current setup right now is JDS Ol Dac > SRM252 > L300. I am using tidal HIFI, but my Ol Dac doesn't currently support MQA. Are the dragonfly's MQA capabilities worth it? Would you suggest the 1.5 or red, I just need the DAC, not amp section. I'm asking about the dragonfly because I don't really spending much atm after dropping a metric crap ton of cash on the earspeakers (college and such) haha.


----------



## clerkpalmer

Hi, just upgraded my black to a red.  Using S8+ over USB Audio and Audeze EL8 opens.  The red sounds warmer to me with better bass extension but interestingly, if I swap the red and the black back to back at the same hardware and software volume settings, the black is louder.  Any ideas why?  Am I doing something wrong with my set up?  Thanks.


----------



## CactusPete23

clerkpalmer said:


> Hi, just upgraded my black to a red.  Using S8+ over USB Audio and Audeze EL8 opens.  The red sounds warmer to me with better bass extension but interestingly, if I swap the red and the black back to back at the same hardware and software volume settings, the black is louder.  Any ideas why?  Am I doing something wrong with my set up?  Thanks.


That's because the Black's analog volume control is nonlinear, so at lower settings  it sounds louder.  At max volume the Red will be louder.  not sure exactly where the digital /red  starts sounding louder maybe 60 or 70% I think...


----------



## clerkpalmer

CactusPete23 said:


> That's because the Black's analog volume control is nonlinear, so at lower settings  it sounds louder.  At max volume the Red will be louder.  not sure exactly where the digital /red  starts sounding louder maybe 60 or 70% I think...


Thank you. That makes sense. Any advice on whether and how to set the volume? Should I focus on hardware volume or software volume? Should one be higher at all times!


----------



## Devodonaldson

clerkpalmer said:


> Thank you. That makes sense. Any advice on whether and how to set the volume? Should I focus on hardware volume or software volume? Should one be higher at all times!


Personally, I use but perfect mode, so software volume is set to Max. I have slider set to hardware volume and use 40 volume steps for fine tuning. Even not using but perfect, that is the way to go. Max software, and control hardware volume


----------



## ninetylol

So how you you control hardware volume with Windows PCs?


----------



## Devodonaldson

ninetylol said:


> So how you you control hardware volume with Windows PCs?


That's what the windows volume is. Your application, windows media player, iTunes, Tidal, etc, Have their own volume. (Player volume). The windows system volume, which should be controlling your DAC is the hardware volume. I use an amplifier between my headphones and the DAC so it's easier for me, I just crank everything to 100, but prior to purchasing amp for added warmth and bass boost when desired, that's how I controlled DAC volume


----------



## ninetylol

Yeh i just checked the Audioquest FAQ a few moments ago where they exactly state that. I always thought the Windows Mixer just changed the audio signal but in this case it seems the digital volume control is controlled driverwise via the Windows settings.

Cheers


----------



## 435279

If you are using WASAPI exclusive on Windows, then yes definitely, it bypasses the Windows Mixer.


----------



## clerkpalmer

Devodonaldson said:


> Personally, I use but perfect mode, so software volume is set to Max. I have slider set to hardware volume and use 40 volume steps for fine tuning. Even not using but perfect, that is the way to go. Max software, and control hardware volume


Thanks. What's bit perfect and should I be using it too?


----------



## Devodonaldson

clerkpalmer said:


> Thanks. What's bit perfect and should I be using it too?


From a couple people on here, it has been observed that bit perfect mode doesn't really change anything, IF you have things like resampling set to off. In that case all it will do is Max software volume and disable eq as to send an unedited audio stream to your DAC. If you want to eq your music, keep it off and make sure the resampling is off, etc. And just have software volume at Max, then switch volume slider to hardware. Set it, and forget it


----------



## psikey (Aug 11, 2017)

Made an interesting discovery today with my Dragonfly Red and Z5 compact.  With Android phones I've used (Samsung/Sony) the volume issue still exists even after the latest update but I manage due to only using sensitive IEM's rather than headphones.

The volume range works perfectly if using UAPP app but using Spotify/Tidal or other music app etc. I nearly have to have the volume at max even with my sensitive Shure SE846's.

Now I also have an iFi IEMatch adapter that reduces background hiss & improves dynamics. I normally don't use this with my DFR as it has very low background noise anyway (SE846's can still detect tiny bit in totally quite room between tracks).

So for testing purposes I tried the IEMatch with UAPP and as expected works perfectly but you do have to have volume set higher based on setting the IEMatch to "high" or "Ultra". Volume would still be too loud to listen to on MAX in UAPP.

I then closed UAPP and swapped to Spotify which would normally be much lower volume and not actually usable with the IEMatch, but the audio volume stayed the same !!

Took out the IEMatch just using the SE846's with the DFR and nearly blew my eardrum's out listening to Spotify !!  If I unplugged the DFR then plug it back it will be low volume again. This may even work by initially just using an impedence adapter. I have a 75Ohm one so will test that when I get change. Not tried it with a Samsung but will when I get chance.

Now with my SE846's/DFR with Spotify I can only have volume at ~ 45% before too loud.


----------



## psikey (Aug 11, 2017)

I just had a thought that changes all what I posted above !!!

Don't need the IEMatch or anything other than UAPP, DFR & earphones.

I just used UAPP to set the volume too loud for me to hear with my SE846's, then close UAPP and fire up Spotify and the volume sticks to this new high level. Its as if UAPP resets the volume sync between the Z5 & DFR.

My Z5 compact is on Android 7.1.1 so may be different with other versions or other phones.

If you have UAPP try and see if you get same result and report phone/android version/earphones.

WARNING ................  Don't blow your eardrums out !!


----------



## ninetylol

I thought this is normal behavior. You change the hardware volume of the Red with UAPP and it stays this volume (for all other apps too) till you plug it out again.


----------



## psikey (Aug 11, 2017)

ninetylol said:


> I thought this is normal behavior. You change the hardware volume of the Red with UAPP and it stays this volume (for all other apps too) till you plug it out again.



Didn't work like this for me previously. If I  wanted to use another App after having it initially working in UAPP I had to unplug DFR, plug it back in and not allow UAPP to take control. Otherwise I'd have no sound in other apps. Maybe something changed recently with the 7.1.1 update or in UAPP.

It could well be a change in UAPP thinking about it. It releases audio control back to android but the volume sync is maintained to the DFR hardware.


----------



## psikey (Aug 11, 2017)

Just did some more testing. It seems to be linked to the Hardware Volume control setting in UAPP. If you have the volume set really low in UAPP then exit out it is also very low in other apps and even at max volume stays low. If set volume high in UAPP before exiting then you can get high volume in other apps once exiting UAPP.

I also did some testing last night with an iPhone using the USB3 Camera adapter against my Z5 compact, for Spotify Extreme tracks. I was concerned about any sound quality lose seeing as Android will upscale to 24bit/192kHz where the Apple will play at correct frequency. Glad to say that I couldn't hear any difference with DFR/SE846 combination. So glad as I'd hate to go back to using iPhones.


----------



## Devodonaldson

psikey said:


> Just did some more testing. It seems to be linked to the Hardware Volume control setting in UAPP. If you have the volume set really low in UAPP then exit out it is also very low in other apps and even at max volume stays low. If set volume high in UAPP before exiting then you can get high volume in other apps once exiting UAPP.
> 
> I also did some testing last night with an iPhone using the USB3 Camera adapter against my Z5 compact, for Spotify Extreme tracks. I was concerned about any sound quality lose seeing as Android will upscale to 24bit/192kHz where the Apple will play at correct frequency. Glad to say that I couldn't hear any difference with DFR/SE846 combination. So glad as I'd hate to go back to using iPhones.


I'm glad you figured it out, but this is what was reported after the initial Audioquest update. Most of us have software volume set. That is the volume of the player app. Hardware volume controls the internal volume of the USB DAC. You raise the volume of the DAC using a player that takes full control of it, then you can use Android apps and use the Android system volume to change DAC volume within the 15 steps on Android system side. This is the "fix" that the update gave us, the ability to control DAC volume using third party apps. I'm sorry that you missed out on knowing that, but glad you were able to figure it out. Set software volume at full and set volume slider to hardware volume. 50 steps gives you a good number of steps to fine tune DAC volume and it translates well when it switches back to Android control. You have to do this volume adjustment Everytime you unplug the Dragonfly


----------



## psikey

Thanks for confirming. I never read about it. Was method posted somewhere?


----------



## Devodonaldson

psikey said:


> Thanks for confirming. I never read about it. Was method posted somewhere?


Lol, yeah, there were a couple pages discussing how things worked since the update. But I get how 250 pages is a lot to try to read through to find info


----------



## gazzington

Anybody know what cable I need to get my dragonfly black to work with my Samsung s8 with a type c usb.


----------



## psikey

Just search on Amazon for OTG USB C


----------



## Devodonaldson (Aug 13, 2017)

gazzington said:


> Anybody know what cable I need to get my dragonfly black to work with my Samsung s8 with a type c usb.


Just a USB C OTG cable. You will need to make sure the black is on the newest firmware, and you will need sn app like us audio player pro to adjust the internal volume of the DAC for better volume use in other media apps. Works just fine


----------



## ninetylol

I got myself https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B01COOQIKU/ for my Moto Z. Works flawless and cable got some solid quality!


----------



## CactusPete23

gazzington said:


> Anybody know what cable I need to get my dragonfly black to work with my Samsung s8 with a type c usb.



I like the right angled head....  http://www.ebay.com/itm/Right-Angle...650086?hash=item1a2cac77e6:g:9pMAAOSws5pZJk4K 

And can then velcro the DFR to the phone case...


----------



## musickid

we're having a few problems on the chord hugo 2 thread running it with tidal in exclusive mode on hifi 16/44 tracks. this results in distortion. masters tracks play fine in exclusive mode. could someone kindly test their dragonfly on tidal exclusive mode playing hifi tracks to see if distortion happens. this will help in understanding whether the problem is specific to chord dacs. many thanks mk


----------



## Devodonaldson

musickid said:


> we're having a few problems on the chord hugo 2 thread running it with tidal in exclusive mode on hifi 16/44 tracks. this results in distortion. masters tracks play fine in exclusive mode. could someone kindly test their dragonfly on tidal exclusive mode playing hifi tracks to see if distortion happens. this will help in understanding whether the problem is specific to chord dacs. many thanks mk


Use my Dragonfly Red all the time on both Masters and 16/44.1 files without issue


----------



## musickid

Is that with exclusive mode on in settings? there are no problems with exclusive mode off in tidal.    distortion only happens with exclusive mode enabled and hifi 16/44 tracks? masters is unaffected either way. thanks again


----------



## Devodonaldson

musickid said:


> Is that with exclusive mode on in settings? there are no problems with exclusive mode off in tidal.    distortion only happens with exclusive mode enabled and hifi 16/44 tracks? masters is unaffected either way. thanks again


Yes, I absolutely only use EXCLUSIVE mode. Otherwise, you aren't getting bit perfect output because windows mixer is affecting the audio. Question. I understand you are choosing exclusive mode in Tidal, but did you also choose to allow exclusive mode in the Windows audio settings, assuming you are using Windows here?


----------



## musickid

we are using macs. and the problem seem to be affecting macs as a direct result of the latest tidal update. we know it's happening with chord dacs like my hugo 2 and i'm still doing some detective work to ascertain whether or not non chord dacs are affected. i was hoping to find a mac user here. by a process of elimination if the dragonfly works or not...........at the moment the fault looks like a mac-tidal issue and not chord dacs at all therefore dragonflies should show distortion in exclusive mode too. chord dacs are fine in exclusive mode with masters tracks on tidal and exclusive mode on in roon. tidal is the culprit.


----------



## micksaddress

hi folks,
thinking of purchasing the dragonfly red for use with my one plus 5 and senheisser ie8s.

Questions I have are

1) What USB cable should I purchase to work with the dac?
2) Is the low volume issue playing music from spotify etc still a problem?

Thanks,
Mick


----------



## TheTodd

A friend of mine has  a dragonfly red but wants more output for his 600ohm cans.   would it be ok for him to get a decent headphone amp and hook this up in-line with this dac? will there be any sound quality issues since he'll be technically double amping the signal?   Thank you very much


----------



## endgame

TheTodd said:


> A friend of mine has  a dragonfly red but wants more output for his 600ohm cans.   would it be ok for him to get a decent headphone amp and hook this up in-line with this dac? will there be any sound quality issues since he'll be technically double amping the signal?   Thank you very much



The Dragonfly Red can be used as a pre amp as well. You just turn the volume to 100% and then use your amp to adjust the main volume.


----------



## micksaddress

TheTodd said:


> A friend of mine has  a dragonfly red but wants more output for his 600ohm cans.   would it be ok for him to get a decent headphone amp and hook this up in-line with this dac? will there be any sound quality issues since he'll be technically double amping the signal?   Thank you very much


Hi folks,
Thinking of ordering the black tomorrow to run with my ie80s. Would I be better to save for another month and get the red?


----------



## Basshead Paul (Aug 15, 2017)

gazzington said:


> Anybody know what cable I need to get my dragonfly black to work with my Samsung s8 with a type c usb.


----------



## Basshead Paul (Aug 15, 2017)

gazzington said:


> Anybody know what cable I need to get my dragonfly black to work with my Samsung s8 with a type c usb.



Hey sorry I answered this incorrectly earlier. I must have not been thinking clearly, so I hope you didn't order it. What you need is: a cable with a male usb c on one end and on the other end you want a female regular usb. And make sure it is OTG


----------



## Shoewreck

I'm thinking of getting a DF Black to pair with a 600 Ohm 88dB/mW headphone. How bad is the idea?
Volume doesn't need to be more than adequate for modern maximized recordings.
I may consider a Fulla 2 instead, but it's bulkier and more expensive.


----------



## endgame

Shoewreck said:


> I'm thinking of getting a DF Black to pair with a 600 Ohm 88dB/mW headphone. How bad is the idea?
> Volume doesn't need to be more than adequate for modern maximized recordings.
> I may consider a Fulla 2 instead, but it's bulkier and more expensive.



That would be woefully underpowered. Even the Red would be woefully underpowered. Super high impedance and low sensitivity = need a very powerful amp.


----------



## 435279

micksaddress said:


> Hi folks,
> Thinking of ordering the black tomorrow to run with my ie80s. Would I be better to save for another month and get the red?



Either the Black or the Red can drive the ie80 well. The question is, are you the sort of person who is happy knowing you didn't get the best/totl in a range? Answer that question and then you have your answer.


----------



## Shoewreck (Aug 16, 2017)

endgame said:


> That would be woefully underpowered. Even the Red would be woefully underpowered. Super high impedance and low sensitivity = need a very powerful amp.


It's more about voltage than power.
1,2 Vrms is just a tad more than iPhone output (1 Vrms, according to some sources). I did try K240 with iPhone, the volume was enough for quiet listening, but of course more volume could be of use.
How much voltage would you considered enough?


----------



## WoodyLuvr

The DFB at 1.2 Vrms will only reach ~92 dB SPL.  To power those cans to 110 dB SPL you are looking at around 9.75 Vrms (158.49 mW).


----------



## Shoewreck

WoodyLuvr said:


> To power those cans to 110 dB SPL you are looking at around 9.75 Vrms (158.49 mW).


I see no reason why would I want to power headphones that loud. The safe level for prolonged listening is around 85dB SPL, the typical average track volume is -10dB. 95dB peak SPL seems OK until I'm going to become deaf or listen to extremely dynamic music. It seems like 1,8 Vrms would suffice for safe listening to most of modern music and adding extra 10dB for the rest would require 5,5 Vrms, that is probably out of reach of existing USB dongles.


----------



## endgame

Shoewreck said:


> I see no reason why would I want to power headphones that loud. The safe level for prolonged listening is around 85dB SPL, the typical average track volume is -10dB. 95dB peak SPL seems OK until I'm going to become deaf or listen to extremely dynamic music. It seems like 1,8 Vrms would suffice for safe listening to most of modern music and adding extra 10dB for the rest would require 5,5 Vrms, that is probably out of reach of existing USB dongles.



Just curious. Why ask a question that you already have an answer for?


----------



## Shoewreck

endgame said:


> Just curious. Why ask a question that you already have an answer for?


I had not.


----------



## WoodyLuvr

Shoewreck said:


> I see no reason why would I want to power headphones that loud. The safe level for prolonged listening is around 85dB SPL, the typical average track volume is -10dB. 95dB peak SPL seems OK until I'm going to become deaf or listen to extremely dynamic music. It seems like 1,8 Vrms would suffice for safe listening to most of modern music and adding extra 10dB for the rest would require 5,5 Vrms, that is probably out of reach of existing USB dongles.


Yes, of course it is wise to strive for an AVERAGE maximum listening level of 85 dB or lower (I listen at around 65-70 dB) but this is not what we are talking about here.  Dynamic classical and live music recordings have peak sound pressures of well over 30 dB so you need to take that into account when determining required amp power for your headphones... so 30 plus 85 is 115 dB for classical/live music and 110 dB for other typical genres.  Working backwards from the threshold of pain and hearing loss (at around 120 dB) you get 105 – 115 dB which is considered a standard to strive for to avoid clipping and other distortions due to inadequate power especially with dynamic recordings.  So to be clear it doesn't necessarily mean that you will be listening at those levels.  Hope that helps, cheers and respects.


----------



## Devodonaldson

Shoewreck said:


> I see no reason why would I want to power headphones that loud. The safe level for prolonged listening is around 85dB SPL, the typical average track volume is -10dB. 95dB peak SPL seems OK until I'm going to become deaf or listen to extremely dynamic music. It seems like 1,8 Vrms would suffice for safe listening to most of modern music and adding extra 10dB for the rest would require 5,5 Vrms, that is probably out of reach of existing USB dongles.


It's not just about LOUD. It takes more to adequately drive cans in the lower registers. IF your AMP doesn't have enough, the lower registers will not sound right


----------



## pinoyman

i wish audioquest will launch a new dragonfly this year.
the red and black has been a success.
they needed to be upgraded and improved specially in the battery usage of the iphone and details in the music.


----------



## Shoewreck

Devodonaldson said:


> It takes more to adequately drive cans in the lower registers


More what? It's only voltage headroom that is lacking. In other ways high impedance cans are almost as easy to drive as s line input.


----------



## Basshead Paul

Does anyone here use Dragonfly Red with USB Audio Player Pro and Tidal hifi? I've discovered an odd little quirk. When I'm playing Tidal through USB Audio Player Pro, the light on the DFR is green. Then, when I play Tidal using the regular Android app, the light on the DFR is blue. It bugs me because the tracks are 16/41 meaning the light should be green for both.  It seems Android is resampling the tidal tracks to 16/48 when I use the regular tidal app, making the light blue. Does anyone know why this would be happen and/or how I could fix it? Resampling is bad for sound quality so I want to avoid it when possible.


----------



## Devodonaldson

Basshead Paul said:


> Does anyone here use Dragonfly Red with USB Audio Player Pro and Tidal hifi? I've discovered an odd little quirk. When I'm playing Tidal through USB Audio Player Pro, the light on the DFR is green. Then, when I play Tidal using the regular Android app, the light on the DFR is blue. It bugs me because the tracks are 16/41 meaning the light should be green for both.  It seems Android is resampling the tidal tracks to 16/48 when I use the regular tidal app, making the light blue. Does anyone know why this would be happen and/or how I could fix it? Resampling is bad for sound quality so I want to avoid it when possible.


All Android devices resample audio over USB. It is an Android audio issue. Only apps like UAPP or older devices like the Sony Z3 on Android 4.4 are able to bypass this. Doesn't iPhone resample as well?


----------



## Devodonaldson

Shoewreck said:


> More what? It's only voltage headroom that is lacking. In other ways high impedance cans are almost as easy to drive as s line input.


Low freq take more wattage to run properly. When an amp is rated at say 80mW at 16ohms that is for a 1khz signal. The 100hz or 60hz freq take considerably more power to run properly.The power delivered to a load is dependent on the voltage and impedence, so a greater voltage is going to give you a greater amount of power to drive the headphones in the various frequency ranges, regardless of the volume level you choose


----------



## WoodyLuvr

Devodonaldson said:


> Low freq take more wattage to run properly. When an amp is rated at say 80mW at 16ohms that is for a 1khz signal. The 100hz or 60hz freq take considerably more power to run properly.The power delivered to a load is dependent on the voltage and impedence, so a greater voltage is going to give you a greater amount of power to drive the headphones in the various frequency ranges, regardless of the volume level you choose


Very good point that I completely forgot to mention... headphone frequency voltage is indeed not linear and definitely has dramatically higher requirements in the bass region as @Devodonaldson as so keenly addressed.


----------



## Shoewreck

@Devodonaldson, how could an amplifier have variable power rating across specified frequency range? I can imagine that in a current-demanding application (i.e. insufficient coupling or PS filter capacitance, output impedance too high), but not when much-higher-than-average load impedance is involved.
In fact, a typical high impedance headphone takes slightly less current and thus power at it's resonant frequencies, but that's already accounted at frequency response.


----------



## Shoewreck (Aug 17, 2017)

@WoodyLuvr, are you speaking of typical 1/f power spectral density distribution? If so yes, there's more power used in low frequency region, but average recording loudness I was relying on while calculating minimal needed headroom automatically takes that in account. Of course, 10-15 dB of extra headroom above 95dB SPL would be usable, especially if you don't want quiet passages to be quiet.

Going back towards the main subject: would Dragonfly power amps clip before DAC digital clipping occurs?


----------



## Devodonaldson

Shoewreck said:


> @Devodonaldson, how could an amplifier have variable power rating across specified frequency range? I can imagine that in a current-demanding application (i.e. insufficient coupling or PS filter capacitance, output impedance too high), but not when much-higher-than-average load impedance is involved.
> In fact, a typical high impedance headphone takes slightly less current and thus power at it's resonant frequencies, but that's already accounted at frequency response.


Headphones have a variable power requirement across the frequency spectrum. The amp has a set voltage. But the headphones have a variable requirement. 32ohm headphones have a 32ohm impedance at 1khz, BUT at 60hZ, that impedance is greater. Seeing as power=V²/R. For a set output voltage of the amp, as the resistance increases, less power will be output to the headphones, this is what is occurring in the lower frequencies. Yes the black can drive the 600 ohm headphones, but it will sound more sloppy in the lower frequencies in comparison to an amp that can generate more power


----------



## Shoewreck

Devodonaldson said:


> the black can drive the 600 ohm headphones, but it will sound more sloppy in the lower frequencies in comparison to an amp that can generate more power


It's lack of (electrical) dampening that makes low end sloppy. An amplifier designed to power low impedance headphones has an output impedance low enough to dampen a high impedance headphone well.


----------



## WoodyLuvr

Devodonaldson said:


> Headphones have a variable power requirement across the frequency spectrum. The amp has a set voltage. But the headphones have a variable requirement. 32ohm headphones have a 32ohm impedance at 1khz, BUT at 60hZ, that impedance is greater. Seeing as power=V²/R. For a set output voltage of the amp, as the resistance increases, less power will be output to the headphones, this is what is occurring in the lower frequencies. Yes the black can drive the 600 ohm headphones, but it will sound more sloppy in the lower frequencies in comparison to an amp that can generate more power


Concur; well put.  With that said, I honestly must admit my surprise of how well my DFB drives my friend's HD-800 and HD-800S (300-361 ohms @ 97-98 dB SPL/mW) albeit at a low volume... I don't listen very loudly so the low volume issue isn't a huge one for me.


----------



## WoodyLuvr

Shoewreck said:


> It's lack of (electrical) dampening that makes low end sloppy. An amplifier designed to power low impedance headphones has an output impedance low enough to dampen a high impedance headphone well.


That is very true but headphone frequency impedance change along with voltage drop are still/also contributing factors which @Devodonaldson is referring to.  To minimize insufficient dampening; voltage drop; and headphone frequency impedance change it is best to follow the 1/8th Rule in keeping the amp output impedance less than 1/8th of the headphone impedance... this however can be very difficult to correctly determine as most amp manufactures rarely and/or do not clearly spec this parameter in a manner/format which is conducive to figuring this out easily.


----------



## WoodyLuvr

Shoewreck said:


> Going back towards the main subject: would Dragonfly power amps clip before DAC digital clipping occurs?


As I mentioned before I am very surprised how well the DFB drives HD-800s so I would say you might need to demo the DFB yourself to see how it performs with your 600 ohm cans.


----------



## Shoewreck

WoodyLuvr said:


> As I mentioned before I am very surprised how well the DFB drives HD-800s so I would say you might need to demo the DFB yourself to see how it performs with your 600 ohm cans.


I see no wonder how DFB powers a 300 Ohm / 98 dB headphone. It counts about 105 dB peak SPL and loads of dampening. I'm not familiar with HD800 at all, but as long as it doesn't reveal any DFB flaws, it's good.
I will try the DFB. If I find it not loud enough I'll just swap K240 for K501.


----------



## Devodonaldson

WoodyLuvr said:


> Concur; well put.  With that said, I honestly must admit my surprise of how well my DFB drives my friend's HD-800 and HD-800S (300-361 ohms @ 97-98 dB SPL/mW) albeit at a low volume... I don't listen very loudly so the low volume issue isn't a huge one for me.


Oh yes, Sennheiser headphones scale very well. You don't realize what you are missing until you hear something else. Like a person who has only ever eaten a steak at Norm's. To them it's wonderful, no issues. Then you take them to a 4 star restaurant for a steak and they now get a taste of what they have been missing.


----------



## WoodyLuvr

Devodonaldson said:


> Oh yes, Sennheiser headphones scale very well. You don't realize what you are missing until you hear something else. Like a person who has only ever eaten a steak at Norm's. To them it's wonderful, no issues. Then you take them to a 4 star restaurant for a steak and they now get a taste of what they have been missing.


Concur.  Those HD800s are normally fed by a Benchmark DAC4 which indeed makes them sound ever so slightly better (but not remarkably so) and it may just be the higher volume but it is an improved listening experience.  Funny with my Nhoord Reds I absolutely can not discern a difference between my DFB and his O2, Deckard, or Benchmark DAC4 which is good for my wallet!  Simply can't justify a Benchmark though  .


----------



## shin0326

Will the dfr/dfb can be use as dac/amp to sony nw-a35??


----------



## Donie Ray Samba-an

shin0326 said:


> Will the dfr/dfb can be use as dac/amp to sony nw-a35??



No. Because dfr/dfb requires download and installation of drivers which cannot be done in Sony


----------



## Basshead Paul (Aug 18, 2017)

Has anyone been able to find the specs for the amplifier in the Dragonfly Red? The only info I've been able to find is the 2.1v output and that it is ESS's latest amp.

I'm mainly wondering about the other specs of the amplifier so I can calculate how well the DFR is driving my AKG K7xx, which is 62 ohm with a sensitivity level of 105 db @ 1v.  I'm new to this, but I believe I need more info about the DFR amp to calculate damping factor and other things.


----------



## OneQuestionOnly

Hello, I recently purchased a dragonfly black 1.0 and noticed that when I am listening to the music app on my iPhone the songs occasionally restart. I found a similar issue on the Apple forums here: https://discussions.apple.com/thread/7529728?start=0&tstart=0

Have any of you experienced this issue so far? It really bothers me because it's happened repeatedly now after I listen to a song on the Music app. After 7 to 10 seconds the song restarts from the beginning. It doesn't happen every song and I only noticed it after I began using the dragonfly. This was not happening previously.


----------



## WoodyLuvr (Aug 18, 2017)

Basshead Paul said:


> Has anyone been able to find the specs for the amplifier in the Dragonfly Red? The only info I've been able to find is the 2.1v output and that it is ESS's latest amp.
> 
> I'm mainly wondering about the other specs of the amplifier so I can calculate how well the DFR is driving my AKG K7xx, which is 62 ohm with a sensitivity level of 105 db @ 1v.  I'm new to this, but I believe I need more info about the DFR amp to calculate damping factor and other things.



The DFR should/will provide your AKGs a dampening factor of 62+ and should/will easily drive your AKG K7XX to ~111 peak dB SPL.  A good rule of thumb regarding dampening factor (amp output impedance vs headphone impedance) is striving for a damping factor of at least 8 (commonly referred to as the 1/8th rule).  A damping factor of 20+ provides an excellent margin of safety in regards to dampening so you are well covered with 62+! 

*AQ DragonFly Red (DFR) - Power Output (Vmax) & Impedance:* *2.1 Vrms (5.94 Vp-p) @ <1 ohm*
*AKG K7XX - Impedance & Sensitivity:* *62 ohms @ 92.9 db/mW SPL (105 dB/V SPL)*

I.) DFR Power Output with K7XX: *(2.1 Vrms * 2.1 Vrms)/62 ohms = 71.13 mW*

II.) SPL from Power for K7XX & DFR: *92.9 dB/mW + 10 * LOG (71.13 mW) = 111.4 peak dB SPL*

III.) SPL from Voltage for K7XX & DFR: *105 dB/V + 20 * LOG (2.1 Vrms) = 111.4 peak dB SPL*


----------



## HerrWallen

Has any pixel/nexus-owners had the chance to try out their DFR with Oreo yet?
Wondering if UAPP is still necessary for volume-fix.


----------



## lovinghart

Anyone willing to compare the dragonfly red with a nextdrive spectra? Which would better drive the sennheiser hd650/6xx? Thanks!


----------



## Mightygrey

Basshead Paul said:


> Does anyone here use Dragonfly Red with USB Audio Player Pro and Tidal hifi? I've discovered an odd little quirk. When I'm playing Tidal through USB Audio Player Pro, the light on the DFR is green. Then, when I play Tidal using the regular Android app, the light on the DFR is blue. It bugs me because the tracks are 16/41 meaning the light should be green for both.  It seems Android is resampling the tidal tracks to 16/48 when I use the regular tidal app, making the light blue. Does anyone know why this would be happen and/or how I could fix it? Resampling is bad for sound quality so I want to avoid it when possible.


This is because the album/track you're playing is in MQA format, which is 48khz vs 44.1


----------



## Basshead Paul (Aug 23, 2017)

Mightygrey said:


> This is because the album/track you're playing is in MQA format, which is 48khz vs 44.1



I understand it differently. I thought Tidal only uses MQA for the songs under the Masters tab. Plus, the Masters tab is only available in the desktop application, so it wouldn't effect use on my Android device. Another thing - the Dragonfly light turns a specific color for MQA, and it isn't blue. It's some sort of dark pink/purple (similar to the color for 96khz but noticeably darker).


----------



## Basshead Paul

WoodyLuvr said:


> The DFR should/will provide your AKGs a dampening factor of 62+ and should/will easily drive your AKG K7XX to ~111 peak dB SPL.  A good rule of thumb regarding dampening factor (amp output impedance vs headphone impedance) is striving for a damping factor of at least 8 (commonly referred to as the 1/8th rule).  A damping factor of 20+ provides an excellent margin of safety in regards to dampening so you are well covered with 62+!
> 
> *AQ DragonFly Red (DFR) - Power Output (Vmax) & Impedance:* *2.1 Vrms (5.94 Vp-p) @ <1 ohm*
> *AKG K7XX - Impedance & Sensitivity:* *62 ohms @ 92.9 db/mW SPL (105 dB/V SPL)*
> ...



Wow thanks! That was very useful.


----------



## Mightygrey

Basshead Paul said:


> I understand it differently. I thought Tidal only uses MQA for the songs under the Masters tab. Plus, the Masters tab is only available in the desktop application, so it wouldn't effect use on my Android device. Another thing - the Dragonfly light turns a specific color for MQA, and it isn't blue. It's some sort of dark pink/purple (similar to the color for 96khz but noticeably darker).


Here's what I've found using Tidal, MQA and DFR so far:

- MQA on the Tidal desktop app makes the DFR turn purple, i.e. 96khz sample rate
- MQA playing Tidal integrated via Roon makes it glow blue, and informs me the sample rate is 48khz
- Tidal integrated into UAPP on Android is able to play MQA, and it glows blue, i.e. 48khz

It seems the Tidal desktop app doubles the sample-rate to 96khz, but plays 48khz through everything else. I'm not sure what's happening with your Tidal app...


----------



## Basshead Paul (Aug 23, 2017)

Mightygrey said:


> Here's what I've found using Tidal, MQA and DFR so far:
> 
> - MQA on the Tidal desktop app makes the DFR turn purple, i.e. 96khz sample rate
> - MQA playing Tidal integrated via Roon makes it glow blue, and informs me the sample rate is 48khz
> ...





Mightygrey said:


> Here's what I've found using Tidal, MQA and DFR so far:
> 
> - MQA on the Tidal desktop app makes the DFR turn purple, i.e. 96khz sample rate
> - MQA playing Tidal integrated via Roon makes it glow blue, and informs me the sample rate is 48khz
> ...



Ah, that's interesting. I noticed a few of the albums on my Android Tidal app are higher bit, 24 bit, instead of the normal 16 bit for most files. They aren't listed under a Masters tab, because there isn't one on Android, but are those MQA files? Or just higher bitrate files?

This is where it gets complicated for me, because they could just be normal 24 bit 48khz files which is why they make the Dragonfly light blue. Or, they could be MQA files and the Dragonfly turns blue when MQA files are played on Android.

I've noticed that when I play songs through UAPP on my Android, the light is green for all 16/41 files and blue for all 24/48 files. Those are the only results on UAPP for me.  But, when I use the regular Android Tidal app, all songs make the Dragonfly light blue, regardless of resolution.

This could be happening as a result of Android resampling all songs to 48 khz. The light would still be blue then, for all songs, even if they aren't MQA. That would make sense to me, and would  explain why the light is blue even if MQA isn't available through Tidal at all unless it's the desktop app.

Haha this feels a bit like figuring out a riddle at this point!


----------



## riderx1

Have the black and it's pretty good.


----------



## micksaddress

Hi folk's,
Got my red today. Partnered with One plus 5 and Anker otg cable.

Tried using and couldn't get volume in Spotify even using USB audio pro. Installed firmware update and working fine now. Noticed some crackle's in Spotify but turning off the normalise volume setting in Spotify sorted it. Have to say it's a night and day improvement over the one plus dac over headphone jack. 

Thanks
Mixk


----------



## micksaddress

Actually crackling with Spotify might be still there.
Anyone else experience?
Thanks,
Mick


----------



## BillK (Aug 26, 2017)

Devodonaldson said:


> I'm glad you figured it out, but this is what was reported after the initial Audioquest update. Most of us have software volume set. That is the volume of the player app. Hardware volume controls the internal volume of the USB DAC. You raise the volume of the DAC using a player that takes full control of it, then you can use Android apps and use the Android system volume to change DAC volume within the 15 steps on Android system side. This is the "fix" that the update gave us, the ability to control DAC volume using third party apps. I'm sorry that you missed out on knowing that, but glad you were able to figure it out. Set software volume at full and set volume slider to hardware volume. 50 steps gives you a good number of steps to fine tune DAC volume and it translates well when it switches back to Android control. You have to do this volume adjustment Everytime you unplug the Dragonfly




I'm still confused by volume setting and how to set for best sound quality - please advise if I'm doing things right in the following set up.

Android phone with UAPP with bit perfect on and using the volume slider within UAPP. Is this correct?

Cheers,

Bill


----------



## Devodonaldson

BillK said:


> I'm still confused by volume setting and how to set for best sound quality - please advise if I'm doing things right in the following set up.
> 
> Android phone with UAPP with bit perfect on and using the volume slider within UAPP. Is this correct?
> 
> ...


You got most of it correct. The BEST thing to is under settings, Volume control, set it to hardware volume control. Next go to volume steps and choose 40. This gives you the ability to focus be tune DAC nax volume and have the same level Everytime. Now set hardware volume at zero and count out your volume presses to get your desired Max volume. Now you have the number you want the Dec set at. Exit UAPP,  now you use Android volume control to control the volume of whatever app you're using, and I the DAC is set at your selected level


----------



## BillK

Devodonaldson said:


> You got most of it correct. The BEST thing to is under settings, Volume control, set it to hardware volume control. Next go to volume steps and choose 40. This gives you the ability to focus be tune DAC nax volume and have the same level Everytime. Now set hardware volume at zero and count out your volume presses to get your desired Max volume. Now you have the number you want the Dec set at. Exit UAPP,  now you use Android volume control to control the volume of whatever app you're using, and I the DAC is set at your selected level


 
Not sure what you mean by 'count out your volume presses'?

Also, when on 'hardware volume' I can no longer see it's playing bit perfect. When set to 'softwear volume' it is bit perfect and then I use hardware volume within UAPP.


----------



## Devodonaldson

BillK said:


> Not sure what you mean by 'count out your volume presses'?
> 
> Also, when on 'hardware volume' I can no longer see it's playing bit perfect. When set to 'softwear volume' it is bit perfect and then I use hardware volume within UAPP.


My mistake. I meant you want volume control to be HARDWARE VOLUME. And keep bit-perfect of course. This allows you to use phone buttons to control volume as opposed to using hardware slider. That way you have set volume steps of 20, 40, or 50. Been awhile since I set it up, had my message mixed up


----------



## BillK

Devodonaldson said:


> My mistake. I meant you want volume control to be HARDWARE VOLUME. And keep bit-perfect of course. This allows you to use phone buttons to control volume as opposed to using hardware slider. That way you have set volume steps of 20, 40, or 50. Been awhile since I set it up, had my message mixed up



Thanks for your help with this. I'm getting glitches with hardware volume, so have gone back to software and using the volume slider.


----------



## ninetylol

Anybody using the Dragonfly Red with the DT 770 80Ohm?

I had the 770 before but sold it last year and wanna test them again amped. Should arrive here tomorrow but im curious if anyone used the same combo before


----------



## grig

I have a quick question too, a dragonfly black or a sanskrit 6th, anyone had a chance to compare them?


----------



## Samadroid

HerrWallen said:


> Has any pixel/nexus-owners had the chance to try out their DFR with Oreo yet?
> Wondering if UAPP is still necessary for volume-fix.



I'm running Oreo on the Nexus 5X with DFB, and I haven't noticed any tangible difference. 
Using Spotify, Android is still upsampling to 96 khz and the volume need to be adjusted with UAPP. Maybe the default volume is a little higher than before, but I could well be wrong.


----------



## HerrWallen

Samadroid said:


> I'm running Oreo on the Nexus 5X with DFB, and I haven't noticed any tangible difference.
> Using Spotify, Android is still upsampling to 96 khz and the volume need to be adjusted with UAPP. Maybe the default volume is a little higher than before, but I could well be wrong.


Thanks for testing, was hoping for a Google-fix with O but I guess we'll have to wait for P then.. 
Didn't AQ mention something about better dac-support coming in future versions of Android?


----------



## Samadroid

HerrWallen said:


> Thanks for testing, was hoping for a Google-fix with O but I guess we'll have to wait for P then..
> Didn't AQ mention something about better dac-support coming in future versions of Android?



Not shure about that. As far as I know there are just some new APIs for low latency audio (https://developer.android.com/ndk/guides/audio/aaudio/aaudio.html) and better bluetooth support (Ldac and aptx). 
All the more annoying considering the lack of the headphone jack in the future Google Pixel...


----------



## chozen1278 (Sep 4, 2017)

Mightygrey said:


> Here's what I've found using Tidal, MQA and DFR so far:
> 
> - MQA on the Tidal desktop app makes the DFR turn purple, i.e. 96khz sample rate
> - MQA playing Tidal integrated via Roon makes it glow blue, and informs me the sample rate is 48khz
> ...




I will be honest, I usually lurk but I HAD to sign in to correct this...  Here is what is happening (and the answer is actually in the instruction manual that comes with the DFB/R)

Tidal doesn't do MQA on the mobile apps yet and Roon doesn't do it either (I have Roon and it hasn't been updated for MQA as of yet).  If they did, the color on the DFB/R would ALWAYS be purple.  The switch between the green or blue is based on the whether the song is being played at 44100hz (Green) or 48000hz (Blue).  Magenta (which is a separate color from Purple, but looks damn close to it) is for when the device is outputting 96hz (which has been proven, it's either Green, Blue, or Purple).

When Playing Tidal through UAPP, it's not doing MQA either (or the DFB/R would register in Purple).  UAPP doesn't do the first "fold' that the desktop Tidal App does for MQA (DFB/R does the remaining folds/unfolds.

Now, as to why you're getting blue when connected through the UAPP is, if you have UAPP set for Tidal HiFi, then Tidal is streaming through UAPP in HiFi but UAPP isn't receiving any streams in MQA. But it is receiving the files in their native format on Tidal's servers (minus MQA) which makes it a better Tidal Player than the Tidal App. 

The best example of this is Play Aerosmith's Get A Grip on the Tidal Desktop App, then play the (Get A Grip The Remastered version) and you will see the lights on the DFB/R change accordingly.  Purple for the non-remastered version but remain mostly green on the remastered...

Then do the exact same thing on UAPP and you will see the DFB/R show as blue on the non-remastered version(48K) and green for the remastered version (44.1k). (I listen to this album fairly heavy.  But MQA isn't being used at all on UAPP.


----------



## Degru

OK, to clear all this up. The Dragonfly is not an MQA decoder, rather it is a renderer. This means all MQA playback has to first go through the software based MQA base decoder, which as of now is only built into the Tidal desktop app.

While properly playing MQA, the Dragonfly's light will be a darker purple, not the lighter 96khz color. To do this, you have to enable exclusive mode on the desktop app and disable MQA pass through so that the base decoder functions. 

What UAPP does is send the raw MQA streak to the DAC without decoding. This is typically 48000hz and the DF plays it without decoding the MQA. If you were to connect a full MQA decoder, then it would actually play MQA through UAPP. 

So to recap, MQA on Tidal through the  Dragonfly only works on the desktop app, in exclusive mode, with MQA pass through disabled. The light should be dark purple.


----------



## chozen1278

Degru said:


> OK, to clear all this up. The Dragonfly is not an MQA decoder, rather it is a renderer. This means all MQA playback has to first go through the software based MQA base decoder, which as of now is only built into the Tidal desktop app.
> 
> While properly playing MQA, the Dragonfly's light will be a darker purple, not the lighter 96khz color. To do this, you have to enable exclusive mode on the desktop app and disable MQA pass through so that the base decoder functions.
> 
> ...




You're absolutely correct...  Play any song that has MQA in Roon and Roon will show that song has a MQA component..  But Roon can't decode it or send it to the DFB/R as a MQA file to be rendered...


----------



## gidgiddonihah (Sep 5, 2017)

I waded through the first 10 or so pages and I seem to be one of the few - or only - people not interested in the mobile use of the Dragonfly R/B. My desire is to hook it up to my speaker system. However, I already own a Dragonfly v1.0 and use it on my speaker and office setups. I am a bit tired of bouncing back and forth; connecting it up on the speaker system is always a pain to fish the RCA to mini out from the cabinent and hooking it up to my Surface Pro which strings RCA and power cables across the entire floor. First world problems.

I was thinking of fixing this with a Dragonfly Red. I would hook the Red into my HTPC which would run WASAPI'd Foobar in the background to my preamp. Whenever I would want to listen to music I would network in and control Foobar on the HTPC with my phone - a much more elegant design, freeing my original Dragonfly to be used with my office headphone system. My real question (I guess I just wasted your time with the above reading material ) is how the Dragonfly Red compares to the original Dragonfly as a DAC only as no reviews I have found online have really done concrete comparisons. I don't want to make the plunge unless there is an excuse beyond the convenience factor.


----------



## Degru

gidgiddonihah said:


> I waded through the first 10 or so pages and I seem to be one of the few - or only - people not interested in the mobile use of the Dragonfly R/B. My desire is to hook it up to my speaker system. However, I already own a Dragonfly v1.0 and use it on my speaker and office setups. I am a bit tired of bouncing back and forth; connecting it up on the speaker system is always a pain to fish the RCA to mini out from the cabinent and hooking it up to my Surface Pro which strings RCA and power cables across the entire floor. First world problems.
> 
> I was thinking of fixing this with a Dragonfly Red. I would hook the Red into my HTPC which would run WASAPI'd Foobar in the background to my preamp. Whenever I would want to listen to music I would network in and control Foobar on the HTPC with my phone - a much more elegant design, freeing my original Dragonfly to be used with my office headphone system. My real question (I guess I just wasted your time with the above reading material ) is how the Dragonfly Red compares to the original Dragonfly as a DAC only as no reviews I have found online have really done concrete comparisons. I don't want to make the plunge unless there is an excuse beyond the convenience factor.



Having tried the Black and using the Red right now, I would say the Red provides a noticeable upgrade in detail retrieval and layering over the Black, and presumably also over the original Dragonfly.


----------



## WoodyLuvr

Degru said:


> Having tried the Black and using the Red right now, I would say the Red provides a noticeable upgrade in detail retrieval and layering over the Black, and presumably also over the original Dragonfly.


That "noticeable upgrade" that you believe you are experiencing is more than likely only the variation in volume levels between the DFB and DFR (e.g. "audibly louder sounds are audibly different" argument).  Once you correctly match levels (output level/volume) of each I would be very surprised if you could discern between the two at all.


----------



## silmusic (Sep 5, 2017)

ninetylol said:


> Anybody using the Dragonfly Red with the DT 770 80Ohm?



What is your impression with this combination? I have DFB+DT770 80 Ohm and after long listening (say, several hours continuously) I feel a pain in the ears. I don't know if it is an issue related to the closed cans or to the bassy combination of both amp and cans.


----------



## ninetylol (Sep 5, 2017)

silmusic said:


> What is your impression with this combination? I have DFB+DT770 80 Ohm and after long listening (say, several hours continuously) I feel a pain in the ears. I don't know if it is an issue related to the closed cans or to the bassy combination of both amp and cans.


I didnt have much time to listen to them yet but i did not notice any bad pairing so to speak. I read a comment on Headfonia which recommended the Black for the 770 (32Ohm limited edition) though. I will do some more listening tonight.

PS: also trying out my new in ears with different A.R.I.S.E. Soundsystem configs and ofc my X2 (which i prefer over the 770 i gotta say) so little time...


----------



## gmalik

It's fight!


----------



## CactusPete23 (Sep 5, 2017)

Degru said:


> Having tried the Black and using the Red right now, I would say the Red provides a noticeable upgrade in detail retrieval and layering over the Black, and presumably also over the original Dragonfly.


FYI,   Most people here that have heard both agree with you.


----------



## gidgiddonihah

CactusPete23 said:


> FYI,   Most people here that have heard both agree with you.



Have you compared the original Dragonfly to the red?


----------



## ninetylol

After a month of owning the Red I still like it very much BUT i still have a feeling that is mainly because of confirmation bias or "post-purchase rationalization". What do i mean?

I really like the sound quality and features the Red provides but after trying to do some rational listening sessions on my PC between the Red and my onboard solution (which should be fairly good, since I got a X99 Rampage V Extreme) I *really cant hear any differences. *As much as I'd like to hear them.
Now my question is why my opinion on the Dragonfly Red differs with all those people in here? I have three theories:

1. My Philips Fidelio X2 just dont need the amping power the Red provides (the Rampage V Extreme features a amping part on the board which seems like its enough for the easy to drive X2's)
2. The Rampage V Extreme actually is really good besides being an ALC1150 chip since it features some stuff like "PCB electrical isolation, stainless steel I/O, ELNA audio capacitors, EMI shielding, and the Sonic Sense amp feature"
3. Since i mainly use it for stationary use with my PC, and not for mobile use with my android phone I dont benefit from the upgrade as much as I would

Your thoughts?


----------



## WoodyLuvr

ninetylol said:


> After a month of owning the Red I still like it very much BUT i still have a feeling that is mainly because of confirmation bias or "post-purchase rationalization". What do i mean?
> 
> I really like the sound quality and features the Red provides but after trying to do some rational listening sessions on my PC between the Red and my onboard solution (which should be fairly good, since I got a X99 Rampage V Extreme) I *really cant hear any differences. *As much as I'd like to hear them.
> Now my question is why my opinion on the Dragonfly Red differs with all those people in here? I have three theories:
> ...


One area you are possibly forgetting is an improvement in fine volume control via the DragonFly.


----------



## ninetylol

Thats obviously true, but since i dont wanna blow my ears away the onboard solution is loud enough and I would argue its a bad 200 bucks spend just for finer volume adjustments. Talking mor about the DAC/Amp quality which should be much better on the Dragonfly Red but just doesnt reach my ears.


----------



## Degru

ninetylol said:


> After a month of owning the Red I still like it very much BUT i still have a feeling that is mainly because of confirmation bias or "post-purchase rationalization". What do i mean?
> 
> I really like the sound quality and features the Red provides but after trying to do some rational listening sessions on my PC between the Red and my onboard solution (which should be fairly good, since I got a X99 Rampage V Extreme) I *really cant hear any differences. *As much as I'd like to hear them.
> Now my question is why my opinion on the Dragonfly Red differs with all those people in here? I have three theories:
> ...



Sounds like your integrated audio is simply good enough already. I noticed a significant improvement over my onboard audio, but I am using old budget hardware for my phone, laptop and desktop so it isn't that great. My desktop in particular has a lot of interference that is noticeable even when plugging in high impedance cans like HD600. Dragonfly Red is dead silent in comparison. 

Dragonfly Red is really most useful for portable/phone use due to its small size and low power draw. I also stack it with a Fiio A5 when I use my HD600, though the Dragonfly can technically handle them on its own.


----------



## chozen1278

I purchased the Black and one thing I have noticed while using it, is the difference in the finer details of the music I listen to.   I use both an iPhone and an Android.  Just going through their headphone jacks, I have to strain my ears to hear details I don't have to focus on or strain my ears for while using the DFB.  I think this is more to how, or what gets amplified..  I don't eq either of my devices TBH and I don't use this in my car since the radio I use is aftermarket and has a built in 24 bit DAC (Sony radio).

So, my original intent for buying this isn't going to e what I wind up using it for.  I do wish the CCK USB3 kit for the iPhone was as bendable as the OTG cable for my Android so I can "velcro" it to the case.


----------



## Degru

chozen1278 said:


> I purchased the Black and one thing I have noticed while using it, is the difference in the finer details of the music I listen to.   I use both an iPhone and an Android.  Just going through their headphone jacks, I have to strain my ears to hear details I don't have to focus on or strain my ears for while using the DFB.  I think this is more to how, or what gets amplified..  I don't eq either of my devices TBH and I don't use this in my car since the radio I use is aftermarket and has a built in 24 bit DAC (Sony radio).
> 
> So, my original intent for buying this isn't going to e what I wind up using it for.  I do wish the CCK USB3 kit for the iPhone was as bendable as the OTG cable for my Android so I can "velcro" it to the case.


This brings up an interesting use I've found for mine; it is much nicer to use it with aux inputs on cars or stereos and such than the phones headphone jack, since it can deliver enough power that I don't have to turn up the main volume higher than for native sources.


----------



## kismetsky

Degru said:


> Sounds like your integrated audio is simply good enough already. I noticed a significant improvement over my onboard audio, but I am using old budget hardware for my phone, laptop and desktop so it isn't that great. My desktop in particular has a lot of interference that is noticeable even when plugging in high impedance cans like HD600. Dragonfly Red is dead silent in comparison.
> 
> Dragonfly Red is really most useful for portable/phone use due to its small size and low power draw. I also stack it with a Fiio A5 when I use my HD600, though the Dragonfly can technically handle them on its own.



How much does the A5 improve on the DFR with your HD600?  I've noticed a marked improvement on my HD6XX when amping through my home receiver and am considering an A5 or O2 amp for portable use.


----------



## chozen1278

Degru said:


> This brings up an interesting use I've found for mine; it is much nicer to use it with aux inputs on cars or stereos and such than the phones headphone jack, since it can deliver enough power that I don't have to turn up the main volume higher than for native sources.



That's how I was originally doing it.  But then I spent some time REALLY listening for any differences in the audio quality with the Dragonfly through the Aux vs my iPhone connected to the radio via USB with my car radio (Sony MEX-XB100BT which has a 24 bit DAC and is Eq'd with Cadence Component speakers) doing the heavy lifting and actually found there was no difference in presentation, details, or soundstage (not entirely sure if the car radio DAC is doing he lifting through AUX or not, didn't have to change the EQ on the radio, just adjust the volume on the phone)

So, that idea was easily abandoned.  So I just use it on my phone while at my desk or working out..  And in my laptop whenever I feel like using Roon and house speakers


----------



## dc655321

ninetylol said:


> After a month of owning the Red I still like it very much BUT i still have a feeling that is mainly because of confirmation bias or "post-purchase rationalization". What do i mean?
> 
> I really like the sound quality and features the Red provides but after trying to do some rational listening sessions on my PC between the Red and my onboard solution (which should be fairly good, since I got a X99 Rampage V Extreme) I *really cant hear any differences. *As much as I'd like to hear them.
> Now my question is why my opinion on the Dragonfly Red differs with all those people in here? I have three theories:
> ...



This probably doesn't apply to your gear, but one of the reasons that I purchased one of these little USB goodies was for its small output impedance.

BTW -- I had a DFB, but it was noisy even in the absence of input. But I did keep a SMSL iDEA (similar to DFR). Great little device...


----------



## Degru (Sep 7, 2017)

kismetsky said:


> How much does the A5 improve on the DFR with your HD600?  I've noticed a marked improvement on my HD6XX when amping through my home receiver and am considering an A5 or O2 amp for portable use.



A5 would be the better bet, but only if you are using quite hard to drive headphones. Even on low gain, I don't have to turn my HD600 up very high at all. As for improvement, I almost think it's not so much improvement as the amp's sound signature. The Dragonfly Red has detailed but lighter bass, while the A5 has more energy in the low end with the highs a little more smoothed out compared to the Dragonfly Red on its own. I like the sound, but the A5 and DFR sound equally good, just more emphasis on different frequency ranges. The A5 certainly does give more headroom for volume, especially with high dynamic range music, whereas the DFR on its own is just barely enough to bring an HD600 to its full potential.

Plus I can feel content knowing I can power just about any headphone out there short of an HE-6 with ease. Dedicated analog volume control is also convenient, and the bass boost switch is fun from time to time, though it's quite over-done.


----------



## WoodyLuvr

ninetylol said:


> Thats obviously true, but since i dont wanna blow my ears away the onboard solution is loud enough and I would argue its a bad 200 bucks spend just for finer volume adjustments. Talking mor about the DAC/Amp quality which should be much better on the Dragonfly Red but just doesnt reach my ears.


Who said anything about listening loudly?  More volume steps benefits the entire volume spectrum.  I have found that these extra steps allows one to better fine tune their listening level especially at low volumes.


----------



## alessio-cpt (Sep 8, 2017)

ninetylol said:


> After a month of owning the Red I still like it very much BUT i still have a feeling that is mainly because of confirmation bias or "post-purchase rationalization". What do i mean?
> 
> I really like the sound quality and features the Red provides but after trying to do some rational listening sessions on my PC between the Red and my onboard solution (which should be fairly good, since I got a X99 Rampage V Extreme) I *really cant hear any differences. *As much as I'd like to hear them.
> Now my question is why my opinion on the Dragonfly Red differs with all those people in here? I have three theories:
> ...



The ALC 1150 is simply a codec, not a chip. The results will depend widely on the implementation on your motherboard, like the chipset and all the extra stuff mobo manufacturers loves to add to spec list (gold plated capacitors, awesome insulation, dual-layer pcb etc.). Hence, you can compare your experience only with other Rampage V owners.

For example, I own an AsRock z170m extreme4 which implement the same codec and I agree the quality is good, even tough a bit muffled compared to the Red. The deal breaker for me is that it does not have enough power for my Fidelio X2 to sound at their best, there is a significant difference in output power despite TI® NE5532 amp touted by the motherboard.

If you're good with your setup though, I would advice not to spend extra money for a Red. I initially got the Red for office and portable use, that's its main advantage, even though it's so good I forget to unplug it from the desktop every other day 

P.S. try both the back and the front jack, some mobo have an heaphone amp on only one of the jacks, so there can be a big difference in volume level/isolation depending on which jack you use.


----------



## kiwikozo

Hi, I currently have a dragonfly black and Oppo PM-2 headphones. Would upgrading to the dragonfly red be beneficial? What sort of differences could I see?


----------



## Degru

kiwikozo said:


> Hi, I currently have a dragonfly black and Oppo PM-2 headphones. Would upgrading to the dragonfly red be beneficial? What sort of differences could I see?


Yes. More detail, less prominent but better bass, and a slight bump in treble. Also more power.


----------



## WoodyLuvr

Degru said:


> Yes. More detail, less prominent but better bass, and a slight bump in treble. Also more power.


I think it really, really depends on the cans being used.

*To my ears* there wasn't a huge difference between the Red and Black using my cans (all sub 32 ohms models) and even with my friend's HD800s and high-end Grados.

Anyway, I ended up buying the Black, along with the Jitterbug, and not the Red model as I preferred the Black DragonFly's lower volume control... it was much easier to fine tune and adjust to a lower volume than on the Red which was much, much louder due to its higher amp output. I will also admit that I found an ever so slightly darker/softer (more mellow?) sound signature with the Black compared to the Red.  But I wouldn't say it was a significant difference.


----------



## Degru

WoodyLuvr said:


> I think it really, really depends on the cans being used.
> 
> *To my ears* there wasn't a huge difference between the Red and Black using my cans (all sub 32 ohms models) and even with my friend's HD800s and high-end Grados.
> 
> Anyway, I ended up buying the Black, along with the Jitterbug, and not the Red model as I preferred the Black DragonFly's lower volume control... it was much easier to fine tune and adjust to a lower volume than on the Red which was much, much louder due to its higher amp output. I will also admit that I found an ever so slightly darker/softer (more mellow?) sound signature with the Black compared to the Red.  But I wouldn't say it was a significant difference.


I guess it really does depend on the cans, but I have been able to notice some difference on most things I've listened through, to some extent. The darker sound signature being the main thing. The bass on the Black seems to be a little more prominent, and perhaps not as refined.

Personally, after a week of owning the Black, I began to dislike it. I thought it sounded.. dry? Like it sucked all the emotion out of the music. The Red I instantly fell in love with. 

Perhaps my favorite right now is using the Red through a Fiio A5. It combines the finesse of the Red and the energetic lows found on the Black into a combo that is just a joy to listen to.


----------



## Devodonaldson

Degru said:


> I guess it really does depend on the cans, but I have been able to notice some difference on most things I've listened through, to some extent. The darker sound signature being the main thing. The bass on the Black seems to be a little more prominent, and perhaps not as refined.
> 
> Personally, after a week of owning the Black, I began to dislike it. I thought it sounded.. dry? Like it sucked all the emotion out of the music. The Red I instantly fell in love with.
> 
> Perhaps my favorite right now is using the Red through a Fiio A5. It combines the finesse of the Red and the energetic lows found on the Black into a combo that is just a joy to listen to.


I absolutely know where you're coming from. After owning the Red for over a year, I wanted a little extra bass. I purchased a JDS C5 amp with a 3 step bass switch. I actually don't add bass that often but the unsuspected added warmth to the sound signature, with extended bass even with bass boost in off position is now something I don't like going without. Treble a little more extended JUST using the Red, but the soundstage opens a bit, and the overall musicality is just that much more pleasant when listening through the Red to JDS C5 combination


----------



## Saaki

Just to clarify, what did the firmware update do in regards to the volume control issue in Android? Will I be able to control the volume natively through apps such as Spotify now, or do I still need to use USB Audio Player Pro?


----------



## psikey

Saaki said:


> Just to clarify, what did the firmware update do in regards to the volume control issue in Android? Will I be able to control the volume natively through apps such as Spotify now, or do I still need to use USB Audio Player Pro?



You still need UAPP to initially set the DF volume then exit out of it. Latest firmware from Audioquest.


----------



## Saaki

psikey said:


> You still need UAPP to initially set the DF volume then exit out of it. Latest firmware from Audioquest.



Ah excellent! Does the sampling problem with Android still persist? I seem to remember that being more of an Android system problem. I had a DFR a while back but it was a dud so I needed to return it. I never got a replacement and have been considering doing so now that the new firewire is finally out.


----------



## chozen1278

Saaki said:


> Ah excellent! Does the sampling problem with Android still persist? I seem to remember that being more of an Android system problem. I had a DFR a while back but it was a dud so I needed to return it. I never got a replacement and have been considering doing so now that the new firewire is finally out.




It still has the sampling issue... Although it isn't an issue for anyone but those who use USB Dacs..  It's how Android is programmed to work


----------



## psikey

chozen1278 said:


> It still has the sampling issue... Although it isn't an issue for anyone but those who use USB Dacs..  It's how Android is programmed to work



And more of a purist concern really as I don't notice any negatives using Spotify with tje upscalling. I still use UAPP for bit perfect playback of tracks on the phone itself.


----------



## Devodonaldson

psikey said:


> And more of a purist concern really as I don't notice any negatives using Spotify with tje upscalling. I still use UAPP for bit perfect playback of tracks on the phone itself.


Don't know what kind of headphones, etc. you are using, but besides the upsampling, Android's processing of the music is noticeable in comparison to bit-perfect playback. That's why UAPP sounds so much better. Now, even with the Android processing and upsampling, it still sounds better than just through your typical Android device 3.5mm jack, but it's far from optimal.


----------



## psikey

Devodonaldson said:


> Don't know what kind of headphones, etc. you are using, but besides the upsampling, Android's processing of the music is noticeable in comparison to bit-perfect playback. That's why UAPP sounds so much better. Now, even with the Android processing and upsampling, it still sounds better than just through your typical Android device 3.5mm jack, but it's far from optimal.



Not talking headphone out. With my DFR, if I listen to Tidal via app (so upscalling the flac files) compared to listening to same Tidal track streamed through UAPP which plays without upscalling, there is minimal difference to my ears. I only use Shure SE846's so may be different with more damanding ear/headphones.

For my own HD flac files and DSD I still use UAPP in bitperfct.


----------



## Devodonaldson

psikey said:


> Not talking headphone out. With my DFR, if I listen to Tidal via app (so upscalling the flac files) compared to listening to same Tidal track streamed through UAPP which plays without upscalling, there is minimal difference to my ears. I only use Shure SE846's so may be different with more damanding ear/headphones.
> 
> For my own HD flac files and DSD I still use UAPP in bitperfct.


I find your impression very interesting. I always found it irritating chow much better Tidal via UAPP sounded via DFR than through the Tidal app via DFR, but I understood why. It was very evident to me be it Shure SE530, AKG Q701, or V-moda headphones. I much prefer storage than streaming as when out, Flac via cellular data can be bad in spots where signal isn't that great. Thankfully learned about an older Android device that does bit-perfect audio over usb, so all music apps sound exactly as they should. No longer need or use UAPP.


----------



## Saaki

I may get a pretty bias answer in this particular thread, but I'll give this question a go anyway. At the moment are there any DACs comparable to the DRF for a portable Android setup?


----------



## west0ne

Saaki said:


> I may get a pretty bias answer in this particular thread, but I'll give this question a go anyway. At the moment are there any DACs comparable to the DRF for a portable Android setup?



I've not tried it personally but I've seen good reports on the SMSL Idea.


----------



## WoodyLuvr

Saaki said:


> I may get a pretty bias answer in this particular thread, but I'll give this question a go anyway. At the moment are there any DACs comparable to the DRF for a portable Android setup?


For what headphones?


----------



## Saaki

WoodyLuvr said:


> For what headphones?



For 1more Triple Drivers or V-Moda M-80's. I also have a pair of Final Audio Sonorous III's, but those tend to stay at home because they are so large. All are quite low impedance. I am mostly looking for a portable setup I can use with my OnePlus One and sometimes with my MBP. Just read up on the SMSL iDEA. Looks like a really interesting option.


----------



## Devodonaldson

Saaki said:


> I may get a pretty bias answer in this particular thread, but I'll give this question a go anyway. At the moment are there any DACs comparable to the DRF for a portable Android setup?


Easiest Answer DFB, but there's the SMSL idea, Shanling UP, HIFIMEDIY 9018, Centrance Dac portable


----------



## WoodyLuvr

Saaki said:


> For 1more Triple Drivers or V-Moda M-80's. I also have a pair of Final Audio Sonorous III's, but those tend to stay at home because they are so large. All are quite low impedance. I am mostly looking for a portable setup I can use with my OnePlus One and sometimes with my MBP. Just read up on the SMSL iDEA. Looks like a really interesting option.


This SMSL iDEA review may be of interest.


----------



## Disadadi

ninetylol said:


> Anybody using the Dragonfly Red with the DT 770 80Ohm?
> 
> I had the 770 before but sold it last year and wanna test them again amped. Should arrive here tomorrow but im curious if anyone used the same combo before



I have used that combo for 10 months or so. It's pretty decent, but eventually I ended up buying AKG K712 Pro's, and I find them a lot more enjoyable than dt-770. The base has better detail and texture, and it pretty much outperforms the dt-770 in every single situation, like instrument separation, mids, highs and sound stage. Of course, if open back is not an option for you, the dt-770 will do the job.


----------



## ninetylol

Disadadi said:


> I have used that combo for 10 months or so. It's pretty decent, but eventually I ended up buying AKG K712 Pro's, and I find them a lot more enjoyable than dt-770. The base has better detail and texture, and it pretty much outperforms the dt-770 in every single situation, like instrument separation, mids, highs and sound stage. Of course, if open back is not an option for you, the dt-770 will do the job.


Thank you for the feedback. I tested the DFR and 770 for almost 2 weeks also in comparison with the Fildelio X2. While the 770 and DFR aint a bad pairing at all, the X2 just is better in every regard, so exactly the same thing you described. Thats why the 770 is going back and the X2 is staying.


----------



## Disadadi

ninetylol said:


> Thank you for the feedback. I tested the DFR and 770 for almost 2 weeks also in comparison with the Fildelio X2. While the 770 and DFR aint a bad pairing at all, the X2 just is better in every regard, so exactly the same thing you described. Thats why the 770 is going back and the X2 is staying.



Definitely a good decision. If you have no need for the sound isolation provided by closed back headphones, I think you should go for open backed. X2's are a great pair, and dfr is pretty neutral imo, so they should work well together.


----------



## coolcrew23

Just ordered a Darkvoice 336SE Tube Amplifier. Plan to use the Dragonfly Red as a DAC playing Tidal via Desktop. I just want to ask if a Chord Mojo would be an upgrade or would it be not that big of a jump?


----------



## HerrWallen

coolcrew23 said:


> Just ordered a Darkvoice 336SE Tube Amplifier. Plan to use the Dragonfly Red as a DAC playing Tidal via Desktop. I just want to ask if a Chord Mojo would be an upgrade or would it be not that big of a jump?



Can't speak for the Mojo since I went with the IFI iDSD Micro BL instead but I had my DFR hooked to my Darkvoice and compared to the DFR that was a significant step up to my ears (I should add that I also rolled the original tubes on the DV which really took my HD650s into unbelievable territory). I much prefer the signature of the iDSD to the DFR, especially when playing DSDs and it drives pretty much my entire collection of headphones while at it...

Comparing a DFR to the Mojo or iDSD BL isn't exactly fair but if it is within your budget, you should go for it.


----------



## Jayden16

Just wondering, does the Black 1.5 come with the little carrying case like the 1.2 did?


----------



## west0ne

Jayden16 said:


> Just wondering, does the Black 1.5 come with the little carrying case like the 1.2 did?


Yes


----------



## Brahmsian

Has anybody tried the DFR with the Hifiman HE560 or Sennheiser HD800? I'm pretty sure either pairing won't be great; I'm just trying to figure out whether it would be tolerable.


----------



## WoodyLuvr

Brahmsian said:


> Has anybody tried the DFR with the Hifiman HE560 or Sennheiser HD800? I'm pretty sure either pairing won't be great; I'm just trying to figure out whether it would be tolerable.


I honestly must admit my great surprise of how well my *DFB* drives my friend's Ether C Flows, HD-800, and HD-800S (300-361 ohms @ 97-98 dB SPL/mW) albeit at a low volume... I don't listen very loudly so the low volume issue isn't a huge one for me.


----------



## kushanukum

Brahmsian said:


> Has anybody tried the DFR with the Hifiman HE560 or Sennheiser HD800? I'm pretty sure either pairing won't be great; I'm just trying to figure out whether it would be tolerable.


Both my he-560 and alpha dogs play very well with my DFR


----------



## Degru (Sep 20, 2017)

Brahmsian said:


> Has anybody tried the DFR with the Hifiman HE560 or Sennheiser HD800? I'm pretty sure either pairing won't be great; I'm just trying to figure out whether it would be tolerable.


HD800 is only a little more difficult than an HD600, and should work fine out of a Dragonfly Red. Having tried a pair out of mine, I can confirm that it can sufficiently power them. The only differences I heard in the sound compared to running it through a more powerful amp were part of the amp's sound signature (The Dragonfly Red has a lighter sound with less bass emphasis, so it can sound like it's not properly driving the headphones at first), and were noticeable on easy to drive headphones as well. It might have trouble at high volumes with high DR content, but you shouldn't be listening at 110dB anyways.


----------



## ninetylol

Anybody noticed the DFR sounding better on Android phone (with UAPP) than on Windows? Source is Tidal on both.

Settings on Windows are bit perfect too so there shouldnt be a difference, maybe its just imagination? Maybe im just listening more closely on phone since im less distracted, who knows.


----------



## BillK

Strange, I think the opposite, definitely better on my Windows laptop using Jriver.


----------



## sejsel

That's hardware and not OS dependent. Of the same OS which is installed (windows) on different machines, there can be different SQ due to the components (sound card) in the machine(s). 
Could be also (far less likely though ) that the user does not utilize the settings optimally in each and every case. On my Iphone SE, DFR Red recognizes the sampling rate of the source, visible by the occasional change of the color of the light. I have no idea if that is so on windows desktop or laptop, on mac os - if I remember it correctly, I have to switch from 48000 khz to 44100 khz (and the other way round) manually.


----------



## slackerpo

ninetylol said:


> Anybody noticed the DFR sounding better on Android phone (with UAPP) than on Windows? Source is Tidal on both.
> 
> Settings on Windows are bit perfect too so there shouldnt be a difference, maybe its just imagination? Maybe im just listening more closely on phone since im less distracted, who knows.



blind test it


----------



## kiwikozo (Sep 20, 2017)

ninetylol said:


> Anybody noticed the DFR sounding better on Android phone (with UAPP) than on Windows? Source is Tidal on both.
> 
> Settings on Windows are bit perfect too so there shouldnt be a difference, maybe its just imagination? Maybe im just listening more closely on phone since im less distracted, who knows.




What do you mean by it sounds better? Do you use a jitterbug? I see no reason how it could sound better on android, unless your computer has inferior components to your phone.


----------



## WoodyLuvr (Sep 20, 2017)

ninetylol said:


> Anybody noticed the DFR sounding better on Android phone (with UAPP) than on Windows? Source is Tidal on both.
> 
> Settings on Windows are bit perfect too so there shouldnt be a difference, maybe its just imagination? Maybe im just listening more closely on phone since im less distracted, who knows.





BillK said:


> Strange, I think the opposite, definitely better on my Windows laptop using Jriver.





kiwikozo said:


> What do you mean by it sounds better? Do you use a jitterbug? I see no reason how it could sound better on android, unless your computer has inferior components to your phone.


This simply could be a difference in volume levels between the two platforms (e.g. "audibly louder sounds are audibly different" argument). Once you correctly match levels (output level/volume) they more than likely will sound the same.


----------



## ninetylol

sejsel said:


> That's hardware and not OS dependent. Of the same OS which is installed (windows) on different machines, there can be different SQ due to the components (sound card) in the machine(s).
> Could be also (far less likely though ) that the user does not utilize the settings optimally in each and every case. On my Iphone SE, DFR Red recognizes the sampling rate of the source, visible by the occasional change of the color of the light. I have no idea if that is so on windows desktop or laptop, on mac os - if I remember it correctly, I have to switch from 48000 khz to 44100 khz (and the other way round) manually.


Sound card should not matter since you are using USB output. My mainboard is very high quality (X99 Rampage V Extreme) so usb output and electronic isolation should be pretty good. When using TIDAL in exlusive mode you are getting bit perfect results (like you said changing color depending on source) so thats not the problem



kiwikozo said:


> What do you mean by it sounds better? Do you use a jitterbug? I see no reason how it could sound better on android, unless your computer has inferior components to your phone.


I cant really say HOW it sounds better. It feels like im hearing more details out of the music. Evaluating why, i can only think the "head" is the biggest factor here. When im listening on PC im not that relaxed and do other stuff at the same time. When listening on my phone im just doing active listening and nothing else really. I guess thats the biggest factor. But i cant really reproduce this feeling objectively if you know what i mean. Not using a jitterbug btw.


WoodyLuvr said:


> This simply could be a difference in volume levels between the two platforms (e.g. "audibly louder sounds are audibly different" argument). Once you correctly match levels (output level/volume) they more than likely will sound the same.


I dont think thats the case at all, since im listening at much lower volume with my phone actually. Another reason i just cannot simply do a blind test.


Thanks for your feedback guys, its probably just me or better a focusing issue. I just wanted to ask if someone feels the same as me, but thats not the case it seems


----------



## sejsel

ninetylol said:


> sejsel said:
> 
> 
> > That's hardware and not OS dependent. Of the same OS which is installed (windows) on different machines, there can be different SQ due to the components (sound card) in the machine(s).
> ...



You are right and I do stand corrected, the sound card is irrelevant here since it's the USB output for Dragonfly. 
I got mixed up between my comparisons of the Iphone SE via CK3 adapter and USB on the MacBook pro, there is a difference to my ears between those two.

Good that you have pointed this out.


----------



## Degru (Sep 21, 2017)

One must take into account the fact that Windows volume control is not linear; this is why the Dragonfly's appear to be much louder when plugged into a Windows machine. The volume ramps up sharply from the bottom, and you get to 90% hardware volume on the Dragonfly at just 50% volume in Windows, roughly. If you max out both Linux/Android/UAPP and Windows and run it through an amp, the volume level will be the same for both. As such, this is the only way you can really compare it on multiple platforms.

I am not certain how iOS and macOS volume scale works, but I'm guessing it is linear like on Linux.


----------



## Shoewreck

Degru said:


> The volume ramps up sharply from the bottom, and you get to 90% hardware volume on the Dragonfly at just 50% volume in Windows, roughly


That's how a linear volume control works. Logarithmic is the one that's useful for audio applications and probably is implemented in other systems.


----------



## Degru

Shoewreck said:


> That's how a linear volume control works. Logarithmic is the one that's useful for audio applications and probably is implemented in other systems.


Either way, it's implemented differently from other operating systems, in a way that makes it inconvenient to adjust volume at low levels, as I have to do with sensitive IEMs. Sort of a shame, since that's the only time I actually use it on its own without an amp.


----------



## WoodyLuvr

ninetylol said:


> I dont think thats the case at all, since im listening at much lower volume with my phone actually. Another reason i just cannot simply do a blind test.


I believe you are missing the point... lower or higher volume, no matter the actual listening level, you still need to account for the difference between the two and level them before you can pass accurate judgement... without doing this one will be louder than the other (no matter how low you listen).  Difficulty here is the linear volume control in Windows as mentioned above by @Degru and @Shoewreck which doesn't make it easy to do that.


----------



## bifeo001

Hey guys thinI g about getting the red dragonfly red, how much of an improvement is it to the black and would the jitterbug bring out even better sound quality with it?


----------



## Devodonaldson

bifeo001 said:


> Hey guys thinI g about getting the red dragonfly red, how much of an improvement is it to the black and would the jitterbug bring out even better sound quality with it?


Depends on what you're looking for in Red vs Black. A little more clinical in presentation. Very detail oriented. Tight bass, not boosted. Extended treble detail, thoroughly brings out highs. Far more power so good for better volume and headphone drive.


----------



## bifeo001

Devodonaldson said:


> Depends on what you're looking for in Red vs Black. A little more clinical in presentation. Very detail oriented. Tight bass, not boosted. Extended treble detail, thoroughly brings out highs. Far more power so good for better volume and headphone drive.


Can the red power hd800 or planer magnetic headphone? And how is it with the jitterbug?


----------



## Devodonaldson

Sorry, forgot go mention Jitterbug. Absolutely makes a difference. I even did a blind test with people. Cleaner, a tad more detail, etc. Gets that little extra from the Red, or any USB DAC used. For me, it's a must have. Amazon has them, so return process is easy. I kept mine and am happy I did. POWERING HD800 is a bit complicated. HD800 scale well. More power you give them better they sound, like most quality headphones. Seeing as different frequencies have different power needs/desires, and lower frequencies requiring the most power, this area of the spectrum will be the most lacking. Not bad at all, but feeding them more power will help them get closer to their potential. As far as Planars it really depends on the power requirement. Some have lower impedence than others. Mostall portable cans will be fine with the Red. Lower impedence. Higher impedence phones will benefit from running the Red at full volume into an amplifier.


----------



## bifeo001

Devodonaldson said:


> Sorry, forgot go mention Jitterbug. Absolutely makes a difference. I even did a blind test with people. Cleaner, a tad more detail, etc. Gets that little extra from the Red, or any USB DAC used. For me, it's a must have. Amazon has them, so return process is easy. I kept mine and am happy I did. POWERING HD800 is a bit complicated. HD800 scale well. More power you give them better they sound, like most quality headphones. Seeing as different frequencies have different power needs/desires, and lower frequencies requiring the most power, this area of the spectrum will be the most lacking. Not bad at all, but feeding them more power will help them get closer to their potential. As far as Planars it really depends on the power requirement. Some have lower impedence than others. Mostall portable cans will be fine with the Red. Lower impedence. Higher impedence phones will benefit from running the Red at full volume into an amplifier.


Thanks I might have to invest in the red then. Does the audioquest cinnamon USB cable do the same thing the jitterbug does?


----------



## Devodonaldson

bifeo001 said:


> Thanks I might have to invest in the red then. Does the audioquest cinnamon USB cable do the same thing the jitterbug does?


Not familiar with a particular cable, so can't say for sure, but I doubt a cable can have the same focus as a USB jitter reducer


----------



## Disadadi

sejsel said:


> That's hardware and not OS dependent. Of the same OS which is installed (windows) on different machines, there can be different SQ due to the components (sound card) in the machine(s).
> Could be also (far less likely though ) that the user does not utilize the settings optimally in each and every case. On my Iphone SE, DFR Red recognizes the sampling rate of the source, visible by the occasional change of the color of the light. I have no idea if that is so on windows desktop or laptop, on mac os - if I remember it correctly, I have to switch from 48000 khz to 44100 khz (and the other way round) manually.



If you use some player that can output bit-pefect to your DFR on windows, it'll change the color automatically, so you don't need to touch the settings between song to make the device put sound with same sample rate as the track has.


----------



## caenlenfromOCN

Hi guys, I got DFR coming in the mail, just ordered it.  I have a couple questions.

1.) I also own a Magni 3 AMP but no desktop DAC, so I can use the DAC on this with my Magni 3 when not mobile?

2.) Will Spotify and Foobar with WASAPI addon automatically change sample rate of the track? Those are the main two players I use.


----------



## Degru

caenlenfromOCN said:


> Hi guys, I got DFR coming in the mail, just ordered it.  I have a couple questions.
> 
> 1.) I also own a Magni 3 AMP but no desktop DAC, so I can use the DAC on this with my Magni 3 when not mobile?
> 
> 2.) Will Spotify and Foobar with WASAPI addon automatically change sample rate of the track? Those are the main two players I use.



1. Yes, just put the volume up to 100% for line out mode.

2. Yes, WASAPI works as expected. Spotify is all 44100Hz so just leave Windows at 44100Hz/24 bit and you should be good.


----------



## VRacer-111 (Sep 28, 2017)

DFR works great in line out mode, it is actually clearer sounding than the Bifrost...amazingly clean sounding DAC. Pair it with a warmish sounding, high current, low impedance amp and the music will be quite an experience. Plan on getting the Schiit Loki to tone down the bass, more so for my Bifrost + Gustard H10 combo, but the DFR + Gustard H10 + TH-X00 PH still could use a little tweaking to tone down the bass a tad. DFR + TH-X00 PH = really nicely balanced sound with *BASS, *really like it as is.


----------



## coolcrew23

VRacer-111 said:


> DFR works great in line out mode, it is actually clearer sounding than the Bifrost...amazingly clean sounding DAC. Pair it with a warmish sounding, high current, low impedance amp and the music will be quite an experience. Plan on getting the Schiit Loki to tone down the bass, more so for my Bifrost + Gustard H10 combo, but the DFR + Gustard H10 + TH-X00 PH still could use a little tweaking to tone down the bass a tad. DFR + TH-X00 PH = really nicely balanced sound with *BASS, *really like it as is.




I second this. My DFR is always used purely as DAC now. Found heavenly synergy with tube amps.


----------



## Devodonaldson

coolcrew23 said:


> I second this. My DFR is always used purely as DAC now. Found heavenly synergy with tube amps.


I use my DFR as the key to my DAP fix on the regular. I connect it to a JDS Labs C5. It loses a bit of the extra detail that is inherent in the DFR, but it adds some nice warmth a bit more soundstage. Great combination for popular music. And when I want that extra detail, more clinical sound, just go straight from DFR. Classical and instrumental jazz. Been using it since last April. Everytime I think about possibly getting a DAP I listen to this again.


----------



## caenlenfromOCN

VRacer-111 said:


> DFR works great in line out mode, it is actually clearer sounding than the Bifrost...amazingly clean sounding DAC. Pair it with a warmish sounding, high current, low impedance amp and the music will be quite an experience. Plan on getting the Schiit Loki to tone down the bass, more so for my Bifrost + Gustard H10 combo, but the DFR + Gustard H10 + TH-X00 PH still could use a little tweaking to tone down the bass a tad. DFR + TH-X00 PH = really nicely balanced sound with *BASS, *really like it as is.



thanks! ill make sure to set volume to 100% when connecting to my amps.  - i will be using schiit magni 3 amp for solid state and when i want tubes i have a Starving Student Millet with 2x USAF tubes all top quality parts and made by a person here on head fi.

will those pair well with this DAC?


----------



## coolcrew23

caenlenfromOCN said:


> thanks! ill make sure to set volume to 100% when connecting to my amps.  - i will be using schiit magni 3 amp for solid state and when i want tubes i have a Starving Student Millet with 2x USAF tubes all top quality parts and made by a person here on head fi.
> 
> will those pair well with this DAC?




If you can you may wish to check the Schiit Vali 2 instead. I believe the Magni is tuned a bit bright and that’s the same as the DFR. The Vali is warm and balances things out.


----------



## DivaFonda

On a laptop with the Focal Elear, which is recommended, DFB or DFR? I need to bring out the mids more and maybe tighten the bass a bit. From what I have read, DFB is warmer, but the DFR is better with detail. I saw a post about the Utopia being too bright with the DFR on iPhone 7, but I'm not using these for portable right now, just laptop usage. I'm leaning toward the DFR because it's clearly better for more headphones than the DFB but if I can get away with the DFB, I'd be happy. I'm on a budget or I'd get the Mojo, but I'm already tapped out a bit. Thanks in advance!


----------



## VRacer-111 (Sep 29, 2017)

DivaFonda said:


> On a laptop with the Focal Elear, which is recommended, DFB or DFR? I need to bring out the mids more and maybe tighten the bass a bit. From what I have read, DFB is warmer, but the DFR is better with detail. I saw a post about the Utopia being too bright with the DFR on iPhone 7, but I'm not using these for portable right now, just laptop usage. I'm leaning toward the DFR because it's clearly better for more headphones than the DFB but if I can get away with the DFB, I'd be happy. I'm on a budget or I'd get the Mojo, but I'm already tapped out a bit. Thanks in advance!



I just got in a DFB yesterday (didn't actually get it for headphone use, will be for a PA sound system), and initial thoughts compared to the DFR is I don't like the DFB as much...sounds sloppy, with boomy bass that runs notes more into each other, and a more veiled/dull overall sound in comparison. I'd take the DFR hands down based on what I've heard so far... That's from listening with both my HD700 and modded TH-X00PH which are kind of two very dissimilar headphones. After having the DFR and loving it, the DFB just doesn't sound as good and would be a dissapointment if I didn't have a specific need it was bought for that isn't as critical as headphone use. As long as it's an easy to drive headphone the DFR will do well by itself, doesn't work so well with the MrSpeakers Aeon. Can always pair it with a nice amp though...


----------



## DivaFonda

VRacer-111 said:


> I just got in a DFB yesterday (didn't actually get it for headphone use, will be for a PA sound system), and initial thoughts compared to the DFR is I don't like the DFB as much...sounds sloppy, with boomy bass that runs notes more into each other, and a more veiled, ane dull overall sound in comparison. I'd take the DFR hands down based on what I've heard so far... That's from listening with both my HD700 and modded TH-X00PH which are kind of two very dissimilar headphones. After having the DFR and loving it, the DFB just doesn't sound as good and would be a dissapointment if I didn't have a specific need it was bought for that isn't as critical as headphone use. As long as it's an easy to drive headphone the DFR will do well by itself, doesn't work so well with the MrSpeakers Aeon. Can always pair it with a nice amp though...



Thank you! I did hear about the warmth of DFB but don't need or want any bass bleed. I was looking at the Aeon too, strange coincidence you mention those. So I should really just buy a Chord Mojo since it powers almost everything? I would like to but even on sale, after buying the Elear I'm pushing it. LOL. So the DFR can tide me over, since I can't get the Aeons right now anyway.


----------



## Jayden16

How is everyone handling their volume in Windows? Using Spotify, I have to turn the volume down to about half in the application in certain situations, as the Windows volume on 2 can be too high, or if I want finer volume control with my volume keys. Is this the only way around it?


----------



## west0ne

Jayden16 said:


> How is everyone handling their volume in Windows? Using Spotify, I have to turn the volume down to about half in the application in certain situations, as the Windows volume on 2 can be too high, or if I want finer volume control with my volume keys. Is this the only way around it?



I use Equalizer APO and apply a -30dB gain to the DFB, I can leave the volume in Spotify at 100% and have enough room with the Windows volume controls for fine control.


----------



## Jayden16

west0ne said:


> I use Equalizer APO and apply a -30dB gain to the DFB, I can leave the volume in Spotify at 100% and have enough room with the Windows volume controls for fine control.


Great, I'll give that a go. Thanks mate!


----------



## ninetylol

Windows Volume at 2 and Spotify at 50%? Whats headphones are you using? That would be like 35db volume for me 

Some People are using the DFR at 75+ and Spotify at 100% which i cant comprehend either xD


----------



## DivaFonda

About the overemphasized bass on the DFB through headphones, like VRacer-111 mentioned. Is there an EQ setting I can use to minimize this? Just looked at my CC bills, and I better stick with DFB or just wait until I can afford the DFR.


----------



## Degru

Jayden16 said:


> How is everyone handling their volume in Windows? Using Spotify, I have to turn the volume down to about half in the application in certain situations, as the Windows volume on 2 can be too high, or if I want finer volume control with my volume keys. Is this the only way around it?


I just use arrow keys for 1% increments, but then again, 8 is OK volume for me on the DFR with my HF5, so I have quite a bit more range to work with to begin with.


----------



## Jayden16

ninetylol said:


> Windows Volume at 2 and Spotify at 50%? Whats headphones are you using? That would be like 35db volume for me
> 
> Some People are using the DFR at 75+ and Spotify at 100% which i cant comprehend either xD


Mee Audio Pinnacle P1. They're actually hard to drive for an IEM (50 Ohm, 96+3dB). I listen at fairly low volume when working/studying though, which is when I use the DFB the most


----------



## musicfan145

coolcrew23 said:


> If you can you may wish to check the Schiit Vali 2 instead. I believe the Magni is tuned a bit bright and that’s the same as the DFR. The Vali is warm and balances things out.



I have this exact combination and it is amazing.


----------



## musicfan145

caenlenfromOCN said:


> I also own a Magni 3 AMP but no desktop DAC, so I can use the DAC on this with my Magni 3 when not mobile?



One note about using the DFR with the Magni: Some folks have experienced channel imbalances at low volumes with the Magni, and Schiit even says on their FAQ that this is to be expected. (I have the Vali 2, so I'm in the same boat.) Given the size and price point of these amps, I would not expect that their volume pots are their best feature. However, the lossless digital volume control of the DFR is one of the reasons it costs twice what the DFB does. I would experiment with setting the Magni at full volume and using the DFR to control the volume. You might find that the DFR is a better volume controller than the Magni. (Or you might not, but that's what keeps us up at night, right?)


----------



## caenlenfromOCN

musicfan145 said:


> One note about using the DFR with the Magni: Some folks have experienced channel imbalances at low volumes with the Magni, and Schiit even says on their FAQ that this is to be expected. (I have the Vali 2, so I'm in the same boat.) Given the size and price point of these amps, I would not expect that their volume pots are their best feature. However, the lossless digital volume control of the DFR is one of the reasons it costs twice what the DFB does. I would experiment with setting the Magni at full volume and using the DFR to control the volume. You might find that the DFR is a better volume controller than the Magni. (Or you might not, but that's what keeps us up at night, right?)




I already canceled my DFR order. I decided to save some money and just get the $79 free ship no tax Grace Design S DAC.  ty though for help


----------



## ninetylol

musicfan145 said:


> I have this exact combination and it is amazing.


I was interested in the Fiio A5 in combination with the DFR but since i only use the amp at home a desktop amp like the Vali 2 is more prefereable on my side. May i ask what cable you use to connect the DFR to the Vali 2? And could you say more about this combination? What headphones did you use with it? I got the Fidelio X2 and i hope to soften some highs with the amp


----------



## musicfan145

ninetylol said:


> I was interested in the Fiio A5 in combination with the DFR but since i only use the amp at home a desktop amp like the Vali 2 is more prefereable on my side. May i ask what cable you use to connect the DFR to the Vali 2? And could you say more about this combination? What headphones did you use with it? I got the Fidelio X2 and i hope to soften some highs with the amp


I'm using this combination with "Open Alpha" headphones, which are custom tuned by each of us who build them. However, I have also used it with Ultrasone Hfi-580's, which have a similar sound signature to the X2. The Open Alphas really respond well to the Vali 2, but the X2 and 580s are really efficient, so adding the Vali 2 in between them and the DFR probably won't change the sound signature dramatically. However, I did notice that the Vali 2 seems to reduce listening fatigue with the 580s--it doesn't make them sound dark, but it may indeed "soften some highs" in a way that is hardly apparent but very enjoyable. 

As for the cable, I'm just using a $10 MediaBridge cable from Amazon. I may make a custom cable at some point, but at this price point, I think money is better spent on tube rolling.


----------



## LoganRoss

*DFR & TIDAL: ERRATIC VOLUME ISSUE*

Hi Folks,
Just bought the Red to experiment with MQA on Tidal (Windows 10 on Surface Pro 4). I have installed the Red, and updated to Firmware 1.06.  I have turned off enhancements in the DFR "windows playback device" settings, selected DFR as the audio output in Tidal, and set the DFR to Exclusive mode in Tidal.

As soon as playback starts, the volume in Tidal starts behaving erratically, bouncing back and forth, including to zero volume (mute).  Darn near blew my ears out at first.  Any thoughts on what the problem is? I uninstalled and reinstalled the drivers.  Next I will try re-installing the Tidal Desktop App.  Thanks in Advance!!

Logan


----------



## musicfan145 (Oct 8, 2017)

LoganRoss said:


> *DFR & TIDAL: ERRATIC VOLUME ISSUE*
> 
> Hi Folks,
> Just bought the Red to experiment with MQA on Tidal (Windows 10 on Surface Pro 4). I have installed the Red, and updated to Firmware 1.06.  I have turned off enhancements in the DFR "windows playback device" settings, selected DFR as the audio output in Tidal, and set the DFR to Exclusive mode in Tidal.
> ...



I’ve had exactly the same problem. I’m convinced there is some major problem with the Windows desktop app. When I connect the DFR to my wife’s 2011 MacBook Air (Core 2 Duo with only 2GB of RAM) it will play MQA for hours with no problem. But Windows always has a problem. Even disabling MQA decoding (and letting the 24/48 FLAC go directly to the DFR) drops the stream after a song or two. I’ve tried wire and wireless, different PCs, even connecting through my LTE phone as a hotspot.


----------



## ninetylol

I had the same problem beginning like a week ago. I just switched the USB port and now it works again.


----------



## chozen1278

musicfan145 said:


> I’ve had exactly the same problem. I’m convinced there is some major problem with the Windows desktop app. When I connect the DFR to my wife’s 2011 MacBook Air (Core 2 Duo with only 2GB of RAM) it will play MQA for hours with no problem. But Windows always has a problem. Even disabling MQA decoding (and letting the 24/48 FLAC go directly to the DFR) drops the stream after a song or two. I’ve tried wire and wireless, different PCs, even connecting through my LTE phone as a hotspot.




It's a Windows issue...  I used to have this issue a lot, what you have to do is, when this happens, adjust the volume from the volume icon in the taskbar.  It'll stop until the next time you open and close Windows.

Also, make sure Tidal is set to exclusive mode.  

Another probable solution is to set Tidal to exclusive mode for the Dragonfly and set force volume.

This will max out Tidal's volume but still allow volume control of the Dragonfly from within Tidal.

That has been a more permanent solution for me


----------



## Fiberoptix

A question;

I have DFB which I have been using for some time as an OTG Dac off my mobile for use with Spotify (Paid). 

I've been happy with the improvement in sound - never previously used it with my PC as I have other DAC's which I use.

Today, I just so happened to plug it into my work PC to stream off Spotify Web Player (which I believe is a lower quality bitrate compared to downloaded music on the app). To my surprise there is a noticeable increase in soundstaging (particularly depth) and separation.

I'm puzzled by how this is possible - surely this should be the same as the OTG? 

Anyone experienced similar?

As an example; the song Sweet Suburban Sky by Paddy Casey -> In the song there is background detail which can easily be glossed over where it seems like his lyric is playing before he sings it. I don't know if this is a mastering issue or it's coming from his monitors and is getting picked up by the mics. With OTG you have to listen quite hard to hear this and it get's masked by midrange bloom in his voice. However, when listening direct off the PC it is much clearer and sounds like there is more air between the detail and his actual sung lyric - this comes back to the greater perception of depth direct from the PC as if there is more air between the layers of music which increases the quality of separation.


----------



## chozen1278

Fiberoptix said:


> A question;
> 
> I have DFB which I have been using for some time as an OTG Dac off my mobile for use with Spotify (Paid).
> 
> ...




Spotify doesn't do bit perfect audio through USB on Android, actually it doesn't do it at all.  Also, there are a ton of other variables at play when trying to compare mobile audio versus PC audio.  So trying to compare the two is difficult.

The increase in soundstaging you might be hearing is the difference in volume while on PC as compared to being on mobile.  I use Roon on my PC and can hear a HUGE difference compared to listening through UAPP/OTG on my phone.  Yet, I know a lot of different variables come into play so the comparison might not be valid.


----------



## Degru (Oct 11, 2017)

Fiberoptix said:


> A question;
> 
> I have DFB which I have been using for some time as an OTG Dac off my mobile for use with Spotify (Paid).
> 
> ...


Windows can do bit perfect, Android cannot. Android's built in audio is actually rather crap on the software side of things; that is why most people would recommend using UAPP for listening through external DACs on Android. iOS does not have this problem. Unfortunately, for listening to Spotify on Android there is no option but to use the inferior system audio. You can alleviate the problem somewhat by setting the usb_device section in /etc/audio_policy.conf to "44100" instead of "dynamic" for the sample rate, but there are still some issues with noise and software volume.


----------



## phiemon

Hi,

I bought the DragonFly Red which I use with my Samsung S8. I have some questions:

1. What can I do to solve the low volume issue?
2. What does mean that the music is upsampled to 24/96? Is this for the sound quality "good" or "bad"? If it is bad, can I prevent the upsampling?

This would help much, thank you!


----------



## DivaFonda

Did you try USB Audio Player Pro? People say that makes a world of difference with DACs on Android.


----------



## phiemon

DivaFonda said:


> Did you try USB Audio Player Pro? People say that makes a world of difference with DACs on Android.



Thank you for the reply.

I read of that. But would this make also the sound quality better or just the higher volume in other apps such as Samsung Music or Spotify?


----------



## DivaFonda

phiemon said:


> Thank you for the reply.
> 
> I read of that. But would this make also the sound quality better or just the higher volume in other apps such as Samsung Music or Spotify?


 
Unfortunately you have to keep your music running through the app. They said the driver cannot work for all of Android, just their app. Tidal is the only streaming program they mention can run through it, that I've seen. They have a thread, maybe more info can be found there.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/usb...quitous-usb-audio-support-for-android.704065/


----------



## Devodonaldson

phiemon said:


> Thank you for the reply.
> 
> I read of that. But would this make also the sound quality better or just the higher volume in other apps such as Samsung Music or Spotify?


Sorry people are a little behind. Step one, go to Audioquest website and download the software to update your dragonfly. You need to be on the latest software to be able to effectively change the volume. Step two, you need an app that can take control of the Red  internal volume control to change it. Android natively defaults it to 40 when there are actually 64 steps on the Dragonfly red volume. USB AUDIO PLAYER PRO is definitely able to adjust the volume. The way it works is in the UAPP app you hit the 3 do menu button at the top of the screen, select hardware volume, and raise the volume slider to say 80% or so. You then continue to press the back button on uour Android device and UAPP will exit. With the DRAGONFLY UPDATE the volume level of the Red will remain at the level you set and you will now be able to use the Android media volume to adjust the 15 steps on Android for use with Netflix, Pandora, Spotify, or whatever else you may want. So in summary, YES you can use the dragonfly red to listen to an audible volume level on any headphone while doing any app. You just need to update the Dragonfly first, and use an app such as UAPP to adjust the Dragonfly volume.


----------



## Devodonaldson

phiemon said:


> Hi,
> 
> I bought the DragonFly Red which I use with my Samsung S8. I have some questions:
> 
> ...


Now, as far as upstreaming. Android, Apple, etc.run the audio through device drivers before the signal is sent to the DAC. This is the whole reason you are able to adjust volume using the device volume toggle. It's not bit perfect. On Android, unfortunately, the system defaults the music to the highest available sample rate of your DAC. Upsampling is far from optimal, but even with it, your heaphones, car audio or whatever else will sound better than it will coming straight from your phones headphone jack, just simply not the best it could coming from the dragonfly if say the audio was being sent straight to it.


----------



## phiemon (Oct 12, 2017)

Devodonaldson said:


> Now, as far as upstreaming. Android, Apple, etc.run the audio through device drivers before the signal is sent to the DAC. This is the whole reason you are able to adjust volume using the device volume toggle. It's not bit perfect. On Android, unfortunately, the system defaults the music to the highest available sample rate of your DAC. Upsampling is far from optimal, but even with it, your heaphones, car audio or whatever else will sound better than it will coming straight from your phones headphone jack, just simply not the best it could coming from the dragonfly if say the audio was being sent straight to it.



Thanks for the explanation!

But how bis is the difference with upsampling, actually? How much "worse" is the sound quality?

If I bypass the low volume through UAPP in order apps can also the upsampling be prevented?


----------



## Devodonaldson

phiemon said:


> Thanks for the explanation!
> 
> But how bis is the difference with upsampling, actually? How much "worse" is the sound quality?
> 
> If I bypass the low volume through UAPP in order apps can also the upsampling be prevented?


Upsampling cannot be prevented. If you have your own music files, use the UAPP app, if not, you just deal with it. Nothing else to be done, sorry


----------



## phiemon

Devodonaldson said:


> Upsampling cannot be prevented. If you have your own music files, use the UAPP app, if not, you just deal with it. Nothing else to be done, sorry



Ok, but how big is the difference while upsampling? How much "worse" is the sound quality compared to the normal resample? Sorry for these noob questions...


----------



## Devodonaldson

Devodonaldson said:


> Upsampling cannot be prevented. If you have your own music files, use the UAPP app, if not, you just deal with it. Nothing else to be done, sorry


Can't quantify it like that. Doesn't sound bad. It's a by comparison sort of thing. Simply not optimal. That's just the nature of the Android operating system. Honestly, your music is still going to sound more detailed through the red than through the S8 headphone jack. Your headphones will make the biggest difference anyway. You get more power to drive whatever headphones you will use. No sense in making a big fuss over something you simply can't change. Just update and get your volume issue set, and you'll be able to enjoy what you do hear.


----------



## pfurey89

Having a hard time A/Bing my Schiit Magni 3 / Modi 2 stack vs the Dragonfly Red. Anyone have any insights? They're so close to one another to my ears.


----------



## LoganRoss

musicfan145 said:


> I’ve had exactly the same problem. I’m convinced there is some major problem with the Windows desktop app. When I connect the DFR to my wife’s 2011 MacBook Air (Core 2 Duo with only 2GB of RAM) it will play MQA for hours with no problem. But Windows always has a problem. Even disabling MQA decoding (and letting the 24/48 FLAC go directly to the DFR) drops the stream after a song or two. I’ve tried wire and wireless, different PCs, even connecting through my LTE phone as a hotspot.



Hi.
Tidal Tech support got back to me and acknowledged that they broke compatibility with DFR.  They are working on it, but with no ETA at this time.

Logan


----------



## musicfan145 (Oct 13, 2017)

musicfan145 said:


> When I connect the DFR to my wife’s 2011 MacBook Air (Core 2 Duo with only 2GB of RAM) it will play MQA for hours with no problem.



I spoke too soon. Once the Mac Tidal app recognized the DFR as a separate device, it stopped working properly. The music now plays either too fast or too slow, depending on the setting. I do hope they get the Windows desktop app fixed.


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## musicfan145 (Oct 13, 2017)

I’ve started looking for a new DAC to add to the collection, and I realized that I am spoiled by the lossless digital volume control on the DF Red. After the difficulty I’ve had with the Tidal desktop app, I realized how much I enjoy connecting the DFR to my iPhone and being able to control the volume with the buttons on the side of the phone. Is there any other DAC out there that 1) sounds noticeably better than the DFR, 2) allows the output level to be controlled with an iOS device buttons without significant loss of sound quality, and 3) costs less than 500 USD? 

(I tried the Meridian Explorer2, but I didn’t think it sounded better than the DFR.)


----------



## Larryp12

You may want to add a Jitterbug.I think it improves the SQ of my iPhone 6+/Dragonfly red combo.


----------



## PeteMtl

musicfan145 said:


> I’ve started looking for a new DAC to add to the collection, and I realized that I am spoiled by the lossless digital volume control on the DF Red. After the difficulty I’ve had with the Tidal desktop app, I realized how much I enjoy connecting the DFR to my iPhone and being able to control the volume with the buttons on the side of the phone. Is there any other DAC out there that 1) sounds noticeably better than the DFR, 2) allows the output level to be controlled with an iOS device buttons without significant loss of sound quality, and 3) costs less than 500 USD?
> 
> (I tried the Meridian Explorer2, but I didn’t think it sounded better than the DFR.)



Simple and quick answer: no, there aren’t any other available answering your three criterias.


----------



## PeteMtl

You may also use the DFR as a DAC only device and then you may pair it with many better (and more expensive) amps available.


----------



## PeteMtl

Larryp12 said:


> You may want to add a Jitterbug.I think it improves the SQ of my iPhone 6+/Dragonfly red combo.



That is true, but I find the Jitterbug more usefull when used at the output of a computer than with a phone or iPad.


----------



## Devodonaldson

PeteMtl said:


> That is true, but I find the Jitterbug more usefull when used at the output of a computer than with a phone or iPad.


Jitterbug makes a notable difference in use with my Android phone. Very noticeable, pleasant happy difference


----------



## Devodonaldson

musicfan145 said:


> I’ve started looking for a new DAC to add to the collection, and I realized that I am spoiled by the lossless digital volume control on the DF Red. After the difficulty I’ve had with the Tidal desktop app, I realized how much I enjoy connecting the DFR to my iPhone and being able to control the volume with the buttons on the side of the phone. Is there any other DAC out there that 1) sounds noticeably better than the DFR, 2) allows the output level to be controlled with an iOS device buttons without significant loss of sound quality, and 3) costs less than 500 USD?
> 
> (I tried the Meridian Explorer2, but I didn’t think it sounded better than the DFR.)


Brand new, no. Used Chord Mojo on eBay can be had for less than $500


----------



## ninetylol

When using the DFR as a DAC only i have to set the volume to 100%? Ive read some things about the DFR distorting above 85% because of a technical missconception. Also wouldnt that max out the amp part of the DFR since you are using max volume? Also if the 100% part is right, i should set Tidal Force Volume setting right?

My Fiio A5 is arriving today and since i heard its a wonderful pairing with the DFR i have high hopes


----------



## Devodonaldson

ninetylol said:


> When using the DFR as a DAC only i have to set the volume to 100%? Ive read some things about the DFR distorting above 85% because of a technical missconception. Also wouldnt that max out the amp part of the DFR since you are using max volume? Also if the 100% part is right, i should set Tidal Force Volume setting right?
> 
> My Fiio A5 is arriving today and since i heard its a wonderful pairing with the DFR i have high hopes


DFR volume is Digital so channel imbalance doesn't occur. First set DFR volume at full, but if that doesn't allow enough room for volume control on connected amp, you can lower DFR volume. 70% and above being fed into an amp, you won't find much if any difference in SQ


----------



## PeteMtl

ninetylol said:


> When using the DFR as a DAC only i have to set the volume to 100%? Ive read some things about the DFR distorting above 85% because of a technical missconception. Also wouldnt that max out the amp part of the DFR since you are using max volume? Also if the 100% part is right, i should set Tidal Force Volume setting right?
> 
> My Fiio A5 is arriving today and since i heard its a wonderful pairing with the DFR i have high hopes



The following text has been taken from the DFR’s website (Audioquest) and says it all:
« You can also use DragonFly as a traditional fixed-output source component (such as a CD player, DVD player, or Blu-ray player), connected to a standard input on a receiver or preamplifier. When used in this manner, DragonFly functions in fixed output mode, which allows the overall volume level to be adjusted with the audio/video system’s master volume control. For this application, both the music player’s volume control and the computer’s main (operating system) volume level should be set to maximum ».


----------



## niknik

Devodonaldson said:


> Sorry people are a little behind. Step one, go to Audioquest website and download the software to update your dragonfly. You need to be on the latest software to be able to effectively change the volume. Step two, you need an app that can take control of the Red  internal volume control to change it. Android natively defaults it to 40 when there are actually 64 steps on the Dragonfly red volume. USB AUDIO PLAYER PRO is definitely able to adjust the volume. The way it works is in the UAPP app you hit the 3 do menu button at the top of the screen, select hardware volume, and raise the volume slider to say 80% or so. You then continue to press the back button on uour Android device and UAPP will exit. With the DRAGONFLY UPDATE the volume level of the Red will remain at the level you set and you will now be able to use the Android media volume to adjust the 15 steps on Android for use with Netflix, Pandora, Spotify, or whatever else you may want. So in summary, YES you can use the dragonfly red to listen to an audible volume level on any headphone while doing any app. You just need to update the Dragonfly first, and use an app such as UAPP to adjust the Dragonfly volume.



Great info. This was what I was looking for and skimmed many pages of this thread..

Is it possible to use the Dragonfly with a PCI soundcard getting output from both simultaneously?


----------



## Jhericurls (Nov 1, 2017)

Devodonaldson said:


> Sorry people are a little behind. Step one, go to Audioquest website and download the software to update your dragonfly. You need to be on the latest software to be able to effectively change the volume. Step two, you need an app that can take control of the Red  internal volume control to change it. Android natively defaults it to 40 when there are actually 64 steps on the Dragonfly red volume. USB AUDIO PLAYER PRO is definitely able to adjust the volume. The way it works is in the UAPP app you hit the 3 do menu button at the top of the screen, select hardware volume, and raise the volume slider to say 80% or so. You then continue to press the back button on uour Android device and UAPP will exit. With the DRAGONFLY UPDATE the volume level of the Red will remain at the level you set and you will now be able to use the Android media volume to adjust the 15 steps on Android for use with Netflix, Pandora, Spotify, or whatever else you may want. So in summary, YES you can use the dragonfly red to listen to an audible volume level on any headphone while doing any app. You just need to update the Dragonfly first, and use an app such as UAPP to adjust the Dragonfly volume.



I noticed the quality is best if software volume is maxed out.  I can notice a different when I knock it down 1 step from max.

My set up:
- Set software volume to 0
- Set your desired HW volume in UAPP and exit
- Turn SW volume to max

Now any app that you use should play at the desired max HW volume that you set when you max out the SW volume.


----------



## phiemon

Jhericurls said:


> I noticed the quality is best if software volume is maxed out.  I can notice a different when I knock it down 1 step from max.
> 
> My set up:
> - Set software volume to 0
> ...


 
Do you use in UAPP the option "bit-perfect"? The problem here is that I cannot change the volume over the buttons which is very annoying.


----------



## Jhericurls

phiemon said:


> Do you use in UAPP the option "bit-perfect"? The problem here is that I cannot change the volume over the buttons which is very annoying.



Yes, and within settings of UAPP there is a volume controls options.  I've set it to "Hardware volume control"


----------



## phiemon

Jhericurls said:


> Yes, and within settings of UAPP there is a volume controls options.  I've set it to "Hardware volume control"



I know and this is annoying because I always have to open the app to change the volume.

Can I have a bit-perfect playback with others app such as Onkyo HF or Neutron Music Player? How is the audio quality between these three apps?


----------



## coolcrew23

Hi I’d just like to ask especially for those who’ve had or have had the dragonfly red. What’s the next upgrade if I want to get just a better dac.  I use my ADR as dac only to my darkvoice 336SE tube amp. If ever I wish to upgrade what should I look at?


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## phiemon (Nov 1, 2017)

coolcrew23 said:


> Hi I’d just like to ask especially for those who’ve had or have had the dragonfly red. What’s the next upgrade if I want to get just a better dac.  I use my ADR as dac only to my darkvoice 336SE tube amp. If ever I wish to upgrade what should I look at?



It's easy to answer: Oppo HA-2SE, than a step further Chord Mojo. Both are for me unfortunatelly not so portable like the DFR. Anyway I self cannot heard such a difference between both which justify the price over the DFR.


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## georgelai57

phiemon said:


> It's easy to answer: Oppo HA-2SE, than a step further Chord Mojo. Both are for me unfortunatelly not so portable like the DFR. Anyway I self cannot heard such a difference between both which justify the price over the DFR.


And ... the DFR doesn’t need charging


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## coolcrew23

phiemon said:


> It's easy to answer: Oppo HA-2SE, than a step further Chord Mojo. Both are for me unfortunatelly not so portable like the DFR. Anyway I self cannot heard such a difference between both which justify the price over the DFR.



Thanks heard i was thinking of the mojo but pairing with my tube amp supposedly isn’t the best. The ha2se may be a just bit better to justify an upgrade but I know it doesn’t have mqa so I may stick to the adr if these are the options.


----------



## phiemon

coolcrew23 said:


> Thanks heard i was thinking of the mojo but pairing with my tube amp supposedly isn’t the best. The ha2se may be a just bit better to justify an upgrade but I know it doesn’t have mqa so I may stick to the adr if these are the options.



I suggest you to search better IEM if you want such a step further in the sound quality. I had since a few days ago the IE8 and I didn't noticed such a better sound with the DFR/Mojo. Than I tried the IE800s and the sound quality way WAYS better also without DAC. Now I compared the IE800s with the Beyerdynamic Xelento (both cost 1000€) which, again, I personally found to be soundwise much better than the IE800s.


----------



## BillK

I've just had the Mojo on home demo for the last week and have come to the conclusion that it is not as good as the DFR.


----------



## VRacer-111

coolcrew23 said:


> Hi I’d just like to ask especially for those who’ve had or have had the dragonfly red. What’s the next upgrade if I want to get just a better dac.  I use my ADR as dac only to my darkvoice 336SE tube amp. If ever I wish to upgrade what should I look at?



What form factor of DAC are you looking for? Micro/USB thumbdrive, compact/portable, or full desktop size? If full desktop is an option, I'd HIGHLY recommend trying out a Gustard X20U / X20PRO if you can... cannot be beat for the price. I picked up a used X20U for way less than new price...does absolutely everything better than the DFR (which it should!) and would be an endgame top level DAC for most.


----------



## coolcrew23

VRacer-111 said:


> What form factor of DAC are you looking for? Micro/USB thumbdrive, compact/portable, or full desktop size? If full desktop is an option, I'd HIGHLY recommend trying out a Gustard X20U / X20PRO if you can... cannot be beat for the price. I picked up a used X20U for way less than new price...does absolutely everything better than the DFR (which it should!) and would be an endgame top level DAC for most.




Idealy something I could place next to my Macbook. Doesn’t have to be portable. Will use together with my Darkvoice 336Se.


----------



## kvzrock

coolcrew23 said:


> Hi I’d just like to ask especially for those who’ve had or have had the dragonfly red. What’s the next upgrade if I want to get just a better dac.  I use my ADR as dac only to my darkvoice 336SE tube amp. If ever I wish to upgrade what should I look at?


I thought the iFi iDSD Micro BL was a nice upgrade to the DFR, though I think it's considered more transportable than portable. Still find it to work for when I want to alternate between a desktop and a laptop.


----------



## HerrWallen

kvzrock said:


> I thought the iFi iDSD Micro BL was a nice upgrade to the DFR, though I think it's considered more transportable than portable. Still find it to work for when I want to alternate between a desktop and a laptop.



Couldn't agree more, I found the iDSD BL to be a very organic upgrade to the DFR even though their signatures are slightly different.
I still keep the DFR around for specific headphones/situations but the iDSD is better in every respect, as should be for the price.


----------



## bencherian

Hi i am going to buy Meze 99 Neo shortly. So i need a good dac to be plugged to my LG G6 or future android phones probably Huawei.
Can i play youtube other online players via dragonfly or is it just the usb player that works with the dragon fly ?
If not dragon please suggest which dac should i opt too. 
Schiit fulla 2 also on my list even though not portable still can be used as a desktop amp but can carry in bag.
I don't use headphones in public anyway.


----------



## CactusPete23

bencherian said:


> Hi i am going to buy Meze 99 Neo shortly. So i need a good dac to be plugged to my LG G6 or future android phones probably Huawei.
> Can i play youtube other online players via dragonfly or is it just the usb player that works with the dragon fly ?
> If not dragon please suggest which dac should i opt too.
> Schiit fulla 2 also on my list even though not portable still can be used as a desktop amp but can carry in bag.
> I don't use headphones in public anyway.


DF will do everything you ask for above.  In windows control panel can make all sounds go through DF if you want. Just select as default sound device.


----------



## bencherian

CactusPete23 said:


> DF will do everything you ask for above.  In windows control panel can make all sounds go through DF if you want. Just select as default sound device.



By windows control panel you mean the panel which pop ups when dragon fly is connected to an Android phone ?
Which phone do you use and also is it easy to operate ? Sry for noob qstn


----------



## CactusPete23

OOPs,  For some reason Thought you were talking about youtube through windows PC,,,   when you said "Desktop amp" above.

 I have used with an OPPO Find 7,  ZTE 7 Mini, and LG-G6...     Usually use with music via Usb Audio Player Pro...  That is one player that gives correct bit rates and very clean audio.   Can download from Google Play Store.  I like using UAPP; because when listening to music no other phone sounds come through the DFR.  (At least with settings I use)...  

What other players/apps work through the DF "correctly" from from a phone, without re-sampling, etc , depends on your exact phone.  Almost all the Phone Makers like to play around with Android, so they act differently with attached DAC's...  Many folks use UAPP to set the "hardware" volume of the DF , and then close it and use other apps/players.  Without that, volume can be low on some phone apps through DFB or DFR.  

Hope that helps some.  Sorry for my missteak above.


----------



## bencherian (Nov 3, 2017)

CactusPete23 said:


> OOPs,  For some reason Thought you were talking about youtube through windows PC,,,   when you said "Desktop amp" above.
> 
> I have used with an OPPO Find 7,  ZTE 7 Mini, and LG-G6...     Usually use with music via Usb Audio Player Pro...  That is one player that gives correct bit rates and very clean audio.   Can download from Google Play Store.  I like using UAPP; because when listening to music no other phone sounds come through the DFR.  (At least with settings I use)...
> 
> ...



Am also using G6 now . I guess this window is what you telling earlier.
So either way i can use Dragon fly with phone to watch youtube songs, thats great cos i listen online songs mostly than offline


----------



## yakswak

I am a new owner of a Dragonfly Black, purchased mainly to be used with the laptop as I used to hear a hiss in the headphone jack. I also purchased a new set of headphones (Hifiman HE400i). 

Anyway, maybe it is my ears, or maybe not, but I cannot tell a discernible difference in SQ between the DFB, Laptop Headphone jack, nor my iPhone 8 (with the $9 dongle). I actually got the camera adapter for my phone also to be able to use the DFB together with...and no difference either. This of course is after volume matching. I'm using Tidal Hifi account for streaming.

I suppose my question is, should i have expected less of the DFB? There was no "wow" moment, and I've listened and done A-B-C testing the last few days. Getting ready to package up the DFB for return (plus the amp is a bit too strong for the HE400i; I don't get enough volume control as I can reduce the gain).

Thoughts?


----------



## AlanU

yakswak said:


> I am a new owner of a Dragonfly Black, purchased mainly to be used with the laptop as I used to hear a hiss in the headphone jack. I also purchased a new set of headphones (Hifiman HE400i).
> 
> Anyway, maybe it is my ears, or maybe not, but I cannot tell a discernible difference in SQ between the DFB, Laptop Headphone jack, nor my iPhone 8 (with the $9 dongle). I actually got the camera adapter for my phone also to be able to use the DFB together with...and no difference either. This of course is after volume matching. I'm using Tidal Hifi account for streaming.
> 
> ...



I actually think my iPhone 6+ headphone jack connected directly to my 400i sound very good (as good as the headphones sound). I tried the black and red even with my Denon mm400 and found the sound to be thin. 

The Apple "dongle" does sound thin and underwhelming. The dongle's power source is running off the lightning port so I do not expect any miraculous sound. My iPhone 8+ and wife's 7+ unfortunately truly sound dreadful with the dongle attached to it. In worst case scenario I'll "settle" and use the dongle as I do not want to bother with lugging a portable headphone amp with my phone (stream Tidal). This is why I dont even consider the black or red dragonfly as I do not fine even the affordable price of the audioquest amps worth it. The cost of my Peachtree shift amp is not much more than the red dragonfly but to my ears its a massive difference in SQ.

When I was at my favourite local headphone shop I auditioned the Peachtree shift amp and really found the music to have some meat to it. Lately instead of using my desktop Burson Virtuoso amp with Grant Fidelity tube buffer I just stream my Tidal on my iPhone 6+ and Peachtree shift with "Harder to drive He560 with little effort.  

For your laptop I'd suggest auditioning some small portable headphone amps with a dac. Look at the Oppo HA-2SE or Peachtree shift for an affordable amp/dac with battery. I really feel they'd give you more of a wow factor over dragonfly with weak amp section(due to usb power source). Mojo or more expensive amps will venture much further from the dragonfly red price point.


----------



## stellarelephant

I'll agree that the Black is no jaw-dropping miracle. But I have auditioned it against the headphone jacks of my iPhone 6 and 2015 MacBook, and the DFB sound is definitely cleaner than both. Listen for instrument separation and soundstage width. Big differences there, owing largely to better treble extension and lower distortion. 

On the negative side, the DFB's dynamics fall rather flatter than the Apple devices, and midrange warmth is sadly absent, at times coming off as thin and distant, even with efficient cans.  Bass goes deep but lacks thump. I believe this is because the Black's built-in amp is wimpy.  It's a rather pristine presentation, but a touch too mellow, compared to Apple's more exciting (yet compressed and muddy) mid-centric house sound. 

I like the sound of the DFB set at 100% volume and fed into my DIY Pocket Class A amp.  This is a major upgrade in dynamics, body, and detail, fixing my gripes with the DFB to a large degree.  A fast headphone with a forward presentation can also help restore some of the excitement that the DFB lacks.


----------



## PeteMtl

stellarelephant said:


> I'll agree that the Black is no jaw-dropping miracle. But I have auditioned it against the headphone jacks of my iPhone 6 and 2015 MacBook, and the DFB sound is definitely cleaner than both. Listen for instrument separation and soundstage width. Big differences there, owing largely to better treble extension and lower distortion.
> 
> On the negative side, the DFB's dynamics fall rather flatter than the Apple devices, and midrange warmth is sadly absent, at times coming off as thin and distant, even with efficient cans.  Bass goes deep but lacks thump. I believe this is because the Black's built-in amp is wimpy.  It's a rather pristine the DFR , but a touch too mellow, compared to Apple's more exciting (yet compressed and muddy) mid-centric house sound.
> 
> I like the sound of the DFB set at 100% volume and fed into my DIY Pocket Class A amp.  This is a major upgrade in dynamics, body, and detail, fixing my gripes with the DFB to a large degree.  A fast headphone with a forward presentation can also help restore some of the excitement that the DFB lacks.



Maybe the DFR is better suited to your needs. Have you tried it as a standalone, taking advantage of the Red’s digital volume amp and higher voltage ?
I understand by your comment that the DFB is a nice unit when used in DAC mode with a better external amp. But you should try the Red for your portable usage needs and come back to tell us if you liked it better or not than the DFB.


----------



## stellarelephant

I actually gave the DFB to my brother for his birthday last month, as an upgrade from his MacBook's soundcard.  It'll likely underwhelm him, until I build him his amp for Christmas.  Then he'll never look back  
Based on the reviews by Gutterberg, Darko, and many Head-Fi users, I agree that the DFR is a step up, especially for standalone use.  It was out of my budget though.


----------



## BillK

I've been using my DFR with a Windows 10 laptop running Jriver MC23 for the last few months with great success. 
Since a change of Broadband supplier I keep getting buffering and dropouts and have now switched to an Android phone running UAPP. I'm listening to locally stored files and a mixture of Spotify Premium and a trial of Tidal HiFi.
I'm really interested to hear peoples views of the comparison between listening via a PC to a phone. They do sound different to me and I guess this must be down to the 'players' (Jriver vs UAPP).
Does anyone here listen with both or has tried one against the other?


----------



## monsterquake

Just arrived my red dac, I have a doubt that never thought before buying it.

Is there any problem using it on a powered usb hub instead of directly to the motherboard?

And in a non powered one?


----------



## niknik (Nov 8, 2017)

Torq said:


> With the Red and ER-6 I found things to be _horribly _bright, bordering on shrill, almost completely lacking in bass and just generally unpleasant.
> 
> That's a stark contrast with my ER-4S and the Red, which sounds very balanced and generally excellent.



How far can you turn up the Red before it starts getting too loud? (ER-4S)


----------



## georgelai57

So I got sick of the tacky rubber coating of the DFB


----------



## bmcelvan

SomeGuyDude said:


> My DFR could never get enough power out of my old HTC 10. Definitely wouldn't work with the 650s.



Sorry for bringing this back up but looking to get the DFR to use on my PC at work but also with my S7 phone. Aside from the "it doesn't work well on android" issues, do you think an additional headphone amp (phone-->DFR-->Fiio A5) would have solved the power issues for the 650s?


----------



## borez (Nov 10, 2017)

It's been a while since I used my DF Red. Took it out for a spin on my iPhone X, and realised I can no longer change my volume settings. It's permanently fixed to 80% (or 0%).

Running iOS 11.1.1, on the USB 3 CCK. DF Red is running at latest 1.06 firmware.

Never had this on my iPhone 6. Anyone has this issue?

EDIT: Plugged it into my iPad, and plugged it back into the ipX. Works now...


----------



## Pastapipo

bmcelvan said:


> Sorry for bringing this back up but looking to get the DFR to use on my PC at work but also with my S7 phone. Aside from the "it doesn't work well on android" issues, do you think an additional headphone amp (phone-->DFR-->Fiio A5) would have solved the power issues for the 650s?



I've got a DFR and a Galaxy S7, wonderful combo, but the only problem indeed is the volume. When the DFR is connected to the S7 and the volume set to the maximum, the output is far from what the DFR is capable of compared to when connected to a PC. I don't know if a Fiio A5 is powerfull enough to amplify that signal for your 650 since I don't own a Fiio A5 or a HD650. If you do, and want to try it out; put the volume slider of your Galaxy S7 first click in the 'red area', that's about the output volume of the DFR on max connected the Galaxy S7.


----------



## Devodonaldson

Pastapipo said:


> I've got a DFR and a Galaxy S7, wonderful combo, but the only problem indeed is the volume. When the DFR is connected to the S7 and the volume set to the maximum, the output is far from what the DFR is capable of compared to when connected to a PC. I don't know if a Fiio A5 is powerfull enough to amplify that signal for your 650 since I don't own a Fiio A5 or a HD650. If you do, and want to try it out; put the volume slider of your Galaxy S7 first click in the 'red area', that's about the output volume of the DFR on max connected the Galaxy S7.


Update your Dragonfly, use USB audio player pro to set the Dragonfly digital volume, exit UAPP, set system volume with device volume buttons. Must be done Everytime DFR is disconnected. Android sets the default volume at 50%, we must use additional app, for non rooted devices, to raise the devices internal volume


----------



## Pastapipo

Devodonaldson said:


> Update your Dragonfly, use USB audio player pro to set the Dragonfly digital volume, exit UAPP, set system volume with device volume buttons. Must be done Everytime DFR is disconnected. Android sets the default volume at 50%, we must use additional app, for non rooted devices, to raise the devices internal volume



I know, but I want to use Spotify and poweramp and don't want to root my device. The output power now is enough for my IEMs.


----------



## Devodonaldson

Pastapipo said:


> I know, but I want to use Spotify and poweramp and don't want to root my device. The output power now is enough for my IEMs.


You don't MEED root. You will have to make an additional app purchase, however the dragonfly can be used with any app of your choosing. I've used it with YouTube, Netflix, HBO, ESPN, etc. As I stated, the USB AUDIO PLAYER PRO app allows you to adjust the hardware volume of the Dragonfly. After doing so you can hit the back button to exit the app, and that hardware volume will be locked on the device until disconnection. You can then use Android 15 step software volume to adjust the volume as needed in what very app you choose. Been doing this for months


----------



## Pastapipo

Devodonaldson said:


> You don't MEED root. You will have to make an additional app purchase, however the dragonfly can be used with any app of your choosing. I've used it with YouTube, Netflix, HBO, ESPN, etc. As I stated, the USB AUDIO PLAYER PRO app allows you to adjust the hardware volume of the Dragonfly. After doing so you can hit the back button to exit the app, and that hardware volume will be locked on the device until disconnection. You can then use Android 15 step software volume to adjust the volume as needed in what very app you choose. Been doing this for months



Ah didn't know that. I'll look into it, thanks!


----------



## Devodonaldson

Pastapipo said:


> Ah didn't know that. I'll look into it, thanks!


Ok. Well FYI, in the app you need to go to settings, and adjust hardware volume.


----------



## Hariz Nordin

Onny Izwan said:


> Lovely track to hear the fabulous layers of voices with the DragonFly Red


Hi bro, ur from Malaysia?


----------



## Onny Izwan

Assalamualaikum.. yes, I'm from Taman Seri Keramat, KL


----------



## Hariz Nordin

Onny Izwan said:


> Assalamualaikum.. yes, I'm from Taman Seri Keramat, KL


Waalaikumusalam bro.. We're like neighbors, I'm from tmn kosas Ampang


----------



## Onny Izwan

Hariz Nordin said:


> Waalaikumusalam bro.. We're like neighbors, I'm from tmn kosas Ampang



Waahh.. cool! Dekat je. Yes I use the DFR. I just sold off my Chord Mojo. I had the Mojo for a little for than a year. Loved the light and clean sound but.. after extensive comparison, I realised Mojo ni dia a bit cold and clinical - banyak spatial information (atmosphere, ambient sounds of recording venue, reproduction of space) is missing and it renders the music flat and lifeless sometimes.

And this is where the Red comes in handy - it may not have the solid military-like construction of the Mojo tapi, the idea that you don't need to charge it and it is a tiny miracle, made me go back to it everytime. The Red sounds more musical than the Mojo in my opinion - and I listened to many, many recording before I reached this conclusion.

What equipment you pakai now? Oh, my earphones/headphone ada tiga: Grado SR125e, Etymotic SR4 and VE Monk.


----------



## Hariz Nordin

Onny Izwan said:


> Waahh.. cool! Dekat je. Yes I use the DFR. I just sold off my Chord Mojo. I had the Mojo for a little for than a year. Loved the light and clean sound but.. after extensive comparison, I realised Mojo ni dia a bit cold and clinical - banyak spatial information (atmosphere, ambient sounds of recording venue, reproduction of space) is missing and it renders the music flat and lifeless sometimes.
> 
> And this is where the Red comes in handy - it may not have the solid military-like construction of the Mojo tapi, the idea that you don't need to charge it and it is a tiny miracle, made me go back to it everytime. The Red sounds more musical than the Mojo in my opinion - and I listened to many, many recording before I reached this conclusion.
> 
> What equipment you pakai now? Oh, my earphones/headphone ada tiga: Grado SR125e, Etymotic SR4 and VE Monk.





Onny Izwan said:


> Waahh.. cool! Dekat je. Yes I use the DFR. I just sold off my Chord Mojo. I had the Mojo for a little for than a year. Loved the light and clean sound but.. after extensive comparison, I realised Mojo ni dia a bit cold and clinical - banyak spatial information (atmosphere, ambient sounds of recording venue, reproduction of space) is missing and it renders the music flat and lifeless sometimes.
> 
> And this is where the Red comes in handy - it may not have the solid military-like construction of the Mojo tapi, the idea that you don't need to charge it and it is a tiny miracle, made me go back to it everytime. The Red sounds more musical than the Mojo in my opinion - and I listened to many, many recording before I reached this conclusion.
> 
> What equipment you pakai now? Oh, my earphones/headphone ada tiga: Grado SR125e, Etymotic SR4 and VE Monk.


Thx 4 da inputs bro.. Might have a TTS with u n the other Malaysian forumers in here..
I just sold off my fiio q1mk2 last week.. Planning to get the DFB and also sennheiser momentum over ear 2.0.. Using my moto g5 plus as the source.. 
Having momentums on ear 1.0 for portable n grado sr60 for home use..
Bagi la contact no, who knows we can have a Teh tarik session.. Hehe
Do comment on my setup, oh ya.. Im on a very very tight budget


----------



## PrinceOfEgypt

Guys im thinking of buying the DFR to connect to my pixel XL. What cable do i need? 
I was also looking at  iFi Audio Nano iDSD Black Label. Which would be the better option (pairing with IE800)

Thanks


----------



## CactusPete23 (Nov 13, 2017)

Any OTG, Type C Male USB to Female USB will work.  I'd also try to get one rated USB 3.0 though not really required...  And I like to get one with a 90 Degree, or "right angle" On the usb type C male end...   ones on Ebay work fine.

Make sure it is listed as Being OTG Type.

I have IDSD Micro the Black Label, but for me it's not exactly portable on a daily basis.   For that one you need a MALE Full sized USB to connect to the IDSD..   I think the Micro IDSD black sounds better than the DFR...  Better bass for sure.    IF the Nano version is same with less power, it would be a good choice.   Even the Nano, is still not as portable as the DFR;  But has better volume control, and does not use the battery of the Phone when using it.


----------



## PrinceOfEgypt

CactusPete23 said:


> I think the Mini IDSD black



you mean this:

https://ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/nano-idsd-bl/


----------



## AlanU (Nov 13, 2017)

coolcrew23 said:


> Hi I’d just like to ask especially for those who’ve had or have had the dragonfly red. What’s the next upgrade if I want to get just a better dac.  I use my ADR as dac only to my darkvoice 336SE tube amp. If ever I wish to upgrade what should I look at?



Entertain yourself and start rolling tubes with your tube amp. You have an alternative of getting more of a desktop DAC instead of a portable unit. The micro ifi black seems to have a nice dual burr brown dac chipset so I think that would be nice and organic and very good detail. If your a detail freak you may enjoy looking into ESS Sabre chipsets but many implementations of that setup (reasonably priced) sound analytical or very detailed and not as organic as burr brown.

If your dumping approx a grand on this hobby I'd say look at other headphones as long as your somewhat satisfied of the DFR as a dac. Borrow some HP and test with your current setup. There will be a massive difference in SQ when you change your speakers/hp.  This is a hobby so it's all about wasteful spending of $$$$ for audio Nirvana!!!!!!!   My HD800, Hifiman HE560 and HD650  sound totally and completely different when using the identical amplifier /dac setup. HE560 has beautiful meaty realism to jazz vocals and enough detail to satify me. The HD800 cannot touch the holographic sound you get from the cheaper he560.  The HD800 is extremely detailed with instrument separation but is analytical and the HD650 just blends everything together as a pleasant chillout headphone.   My point...... experiment!!!

I remember my Concero HD dac that was insane detail and wide soundstage. Some love it but I'm wanting warmth and meaty signature and the Concero was NOT the dac for what I wanted.

If your lugging a laptop to a coffee shop and wanting a nice portable amp/dac combo with alot of juice the IFI micro black label will deliver. The Micro black label is kinda big but it'll run virtually anything you throw at it. My Peachtree shift to my ears destroys the DFB and DFR in meaty rich music that is not overly warm and enough detail. Most importantly it's not expensive and it's battery operated. I've been entertaining the thought of buying  a DFR again for my iPhone 8+ as the apple dongle is dreadful. I've now resorted in tolerating my iphone 6+ headphone jack to run my portable headphones and iphone 8+ in my other pocket. Lugging a Mojo or any portable is kinda pain in the butt IMO for running around. As I'm less critical on the run my apple iphone 6+ is great.

Many ways to skin a cat.

What do you like???? analytical sound? warmth?

If you have a tube amp I'm assuming warmish and holographic. The price of the HE560 at the moment you'd be absolutely amazed in how they sound and very good clarity for the cheap price at the moment.


----------



## wildpanda86

Been using my Dragonfly Red on my headphones and the Dragonfly Black in my car for months now with an iPhone. However just this AM it started cutting out like what others have reported!!!

Prior to this in anticipation of the new iPhone X on a recent road trip I used my wife’s iPhone 7 loaded with ios11 to make sure I didn’t get any drop outs which was a success.

So when the iPhone X came out I tested it with both my Dragonfly Red and Black and it worked flawlessly.

Over the weekend there was an IOS11 update... and now on my drive to work this AM my iPhone X kept dropping out as if the audio stream couldnt buff enough.

I’ve never ran a software update on the Dragonfly’s since I got them this spring... will a software update from Audioquest fix this? Or am I just SOL and should start exploring a bluetooth solution for my car instead.


----------



## ninetylol

Why not just try an update? Updates are (almost) always better


----------



## 7onyMustDive

I've been using my Dragonfly Red with Tidal. 

When I have the streaming settings on Tidal to "System Default" the light on the Dragonfly change colors normally. But when I switch the setting to "Audioquest Dragonfly Red" and do the MQA and Exclusive option, the light colors only change from green to blue, never anything higher khz. Anyone else get this? is it working normally?


----------



## ninetylol

7onyMustDive said:


> I've been using my Dragonfly Red with Tidal.
> 
> When I have the streaming settings on Tidal to "System Default" the light on the Dragonfly change colors normally. But when I switch the setting to "Audioquest Dragonfly Red" and do the MQA and Exclusive option, the light colors only change from green to blue, never anything higher khz. Anyone else get this? is it working normally?


you should NOT tick the MQA setting or else it will not process the MQA data. So just check exclusive but not the MQA option.


----------



## 7onyMustDive

ninetylol said:


> you should NOT tick the MQA setting or else it will not process the MQA data. So just check exclusive but not the MQA option.



Oh wait really? I always through by checking disable software MQA decode, it triggers hardware MQA decode by the Dragonfly Red DAC?

I'm confused, can anyone clarify this?


----------



## silmusic

7onyMustDive said:


> Oh wait really? I always through by checking disable software MQA decode, it triggers hardware MQA decode by the Dragonfly Red DAC?
> 
> I'm confused, can anyone clarify this?


Dragonfly is MQA renderer, not decoder:
http://www.audioquest.com/2017/05/mqa-for-dragonfly-is-here/


----------



## 7onyMustDive (Nov 17, 2017)

silmusic said:


> Dragonfly is MQA renderer, not decoder:
> http://www.audioquest.com/2017/05/mqa-for-dragonfly-is-here/



Ahh! thanks guys! I unchecked the MQA, restarted my Tidal and now I'm finally getting the magenta purple colors!! woohoo!!

One more question. So the Dragonfly Red maxes out at 96KHz. Do software MQA decoded files that's rendered through the Dragonfly still max out at 96KHz or potentially go higher?


----------



## Cheffy (Nov 20, 2017)

I've been enjoying the DFB for a week now and the results have been tremendous. It's my first dedicated DAC/amp and I didn't have any specific expectations coming into using it other than a general improvement in sound quality, and wow, does it deliver. Previously, I've noticed considerable sound quality differences in my devices without the DFB; my dell laptop from 2011 has noticeably duller sound than my new Lenonvo work laptop, and my Samsung S5 NEO sounds better than either of those. The motherboard I selected for my PC has a (supposedly) slightly better quality DAC than others, which factored into my selection, and probably sounds best of all. But the DFB takes it to an entirely different level. I listen exclusively using closed-back headphones.

Here is my opinion on the sound improvements over stock DACs in my electronic devices using the NAD VISO HP50 and Brainwavz HM5 headphones, listening to a mix of spotify streaming and MP3s and FLAC files in foobar 2000:

Much better sound separation, imaging, and space (i.e. soundstage). Instruments sound more physically distinct from one another and spatially separated. It's almost eerie how much space there is now.
Much better black noise i.e. silence between sounds. This probably contributes a great deal to the better sound separation and clarity. I find myself seeking out music with a lot of negative space to enjoy this.
Noticeably crisper treble and upper-mids. High-hat and female vocals sound incredible, but not fatiguing, and express no sibilance whatsoever.
Slightly deeper bass with better definition. Highs benefited more noticeably than lows.
Even lower quality streaming at 160 kbps benefited greatly from the DFB; 320 kbps and FLAC better still.
Overall sound is therefore much cleaner and more dynamic than before. Better attack, yet delicate sounds that were previously dull or washed out stand out well.

Music tended to sound slightly warm but that might be due to most of my listening coming from using my HP50 headphones, which are noted for being neutral bordering on warm. I think the DFB just enhanced what was already there.

In general, mids don't seem to benefit much from the DFB. The problem is that with the improvements in the highs and lows, in some songs the mids sound slightly dull by comparison. I found listening to busy sounding classical music a little on the dull side as a result compared with electronica, rock, and pop where this issue only presented on a minority of songs. I tried EQing the mids upwards to compensate - this helped a little, but doesn't improve the mid separation of course. This was the case for both my HP50s and HM5s (neutral, mids tend to sound a little "hollow" to me but are balanced with highs and lows with respect to volume). However, these are closed cans that are probably not ideal for classical music to begin with. That all said - even classical music certainly sounded much better with the DFB, with incredible separation on horns. It was mostly when the sound becomes congested that separation became more difficult, but that it likely a common issue.

Using android, UAPP and Hibymusic both work to pass audio through an OTH USB cable to my headphones and sound great (separately, I intensely dislike the interface for UAPP but quite like Hibymusic, FYI). However, I cannot get the DFB to natively work with android on my Galaxy S5 NEO. I plug it in, the unit goes magenta, it cuts off all sounds as though it redirects sound to the DFB, but nothing comes from my headphones. I've tried all the troubleshooting steps, including updating the DFB software and starting UAPP first and raising the hardware volume to full, but it doesn't carry over outside of UAPP. Disappointing, as I'd hoped to use the DFB portably. It might well be an issue with the kernal for my version of android 7.0.

Conclusions:

Overall the dragonfly black was a huge improvement in overall sound quality and a very worthwhile upgrade for $130 CAD. Lack of android support is disappointing, but this seems hit and miss by phone, and most of my intended use is from my laptop or desktop anyway so it's not a major issue for me.


----------



## Cheffy

So in light of my impressions of the DFB in my previous post above, and using easy to drive headphones like the NAD VISO HP50, Brainwavz HM5, and ATH M50s, would I benefit from "upgrading" to the DFR? Is it worth another $120 CAD for my setup? I'm thinking of ordering one from amazon anyway and just A/Bing them, but I'd prefer not to pay return shipping costs only to keep my DFB. I could save that money and perhaps save-up for a separate dedicated desktop unit for home use later on. 

I've read most or all the reviews on both here and elsewhere, and there is a great deal of disagreement about the sound signature of the DFR and comparisons between the DFR and DFB. The only general conclusions I can seem to make out from reviews are that the DFR enhances highs more than the DFB and creates even better soundstage/separation, and it is better for driving higher impedance headphones. 

Mixed opinions:

-Some consider the DFR red to be more neutral than the DFB, while others suggest it is even darker/warmer despite more enhanced highs.
-Others suggest the sound of the DFR is almost glassy and too sharp, while the DFB is more neutral/warm.
-Several suggest the DFB has more/better bass response, while others suggest that the bass of the DFR is more extended and much clearer.

I don't have the time or inclination to go back through all the posts I've read here to cite those that support one point or another; suffice it to say, there are large disagreements, but the general consensus is that the DFR is a better product overall. I think most disagreements and incongruities can be chalked up to differences in headphones, sources, and preference. Someone noted that the DFR doesn't colour much, but instead enhances what is being projected - i.e. if your source and phones tend to be bright/dark, the sound will be brighter/darker. That makes sense to me, though I'm sure the DFR adds its own flavour. 

Volume issues -  many people have incorrectly suggested that the DFB is "louder" than the DFR even on the PC (on smartphones this might be true). According to audioquest themselves, this perception is due to volume stepping. At lower volumes, the DFB is louder simply because the analogue volume steps are larger. The DFR has a more fined tuned digital volume tuner that has smaller steps but becomes much "louder" at the higher end of the range than the black.


----------



## VRacer-111

Cheffy said:


> So in light of my impressions of the DFB in my previous post above, and using easy to drive headphones like the NAD VISO HP50, Brainwavz HM5, and ATH M50s, would I benefit from "upgrading" to the DFR? Is it worth another $120 CAD for my setup? I'm thinking of ordering one from amazon anyway and just A/Bing them, but I'd prefer not to pay return shipping costs only to keep my DFB. I could save that money and perhaps save-up for a separate dedicated desktop unit for home use later on.
> 
> I've read most or all the reviews on both here and elsewhere, and there is a great deal of disagreement about the sound signature of the DFR and comparisons between the DFR and DFB. The only general conclusions I can seem to make out from reviews are that the DFR enhances highs more than the DFB and creates even better soundstage/separation, and it is better for driving higher impedance headphones.
> 
> ...



I got the DFB after having the DFR for a while, because I was curious about the DFB and it was ultimately going to be used in setup that wasn't for headphones. Short story, much prefer the DFR over DFB for every headphone I tried - DFB is too veiled and less detailed than the DFR, and also has less dynamics and speed. DFR is the top end dragonfly and pairs EXTREMELY well when used in line-out mode with warm leaning amp, like Gustard H10. DFB was a noticeable downgrade in audio quality from the DFR to me. Would have been okay if had never heard the DFR.


----------



## Cheffy

VRacer-111 said:


> I got the DFB after having the DFR for a while, because I was curious about the DFB and it was ultimately going to be used in setup that wasn't for headphones. Short story, much prefer the DFR over DFB for every headphone I tried - DFB is too veiled and less detailed than the DFR, and also has less dynamics and speed. DFR is the top end dragonfly and pairs EXTREMELY well when used in line-out mode with warm leaning amp, like Gustard H10. DFB was a noticeable downgrade in audio quality from the DFR to me. Would have been okay if had never heard the DFR.



Thanks for the input, this is certainly helpful.



VRacer-111 said:


> Would have been okay if had never heard the DFR



Hahaha, yeah, that's the kicker, right? I mean I'm pretty happy with the DFB, but paradoxically, the selective improvements in sound quality are making me more aware of deficiencies in the sound balance. Can of worms. So let's say I go for the DFR - then do I become aware of other short comings and think - "Maybe I need to go to the next step up like a mojo chord". I'm not poor (anymore!!), but I don't have a really big disposable income so the mojo is just not happening.


----------



## bmcelvan (Nov 20, 2017)

Cheffy said:


> Thanks for the input, this is certainly helpful.
> 
> 
> 
> Hahaha, yeah, that's the kicker, right? I mean I'm pretty happy with the DFB, but paradoxically, the selective improvements in sound quality are making me more aware of deficiencies in the sound balance. Can of worms. So let's say I go for the DFR - then do I become aware of other short comings and think - "Maybe I need to go to the next step up like a mojo chord". I'm not poor (anymore!!), but I don't have a really big disposable income so the mojo is just not happening.


Upgrading your headphones might be a better upgrade than the mojo at first...doing both would obviously be the best 

I've tried the ATH-m50x on three different occasions now (I mean purchased and used for a few days and subsequently returned) and have fallen back to my MDR-V6s as I just hear so much more of the music with them. The m50x seem to hide so many of the frequencies for me...most notably on guitars and pianos...it's like they just fall way off into the background! Seeing the mojo is $500+ I think you can get better cans for a lot less than that!

I haven't heard the HP50s yet but have been wanting to for a while now.

Using an open back style of headphones might also reveal a lot more of those deficiencies in the soundstage you mentioned as well.


----------



## VRacer-111 (Nov 20, 2017)

For portable on-the-go sound, the DFR has good enough quality and a stellar tiny form factor - personally don't feel the need for anything better. For home use, it's not quite high enough in quality, but when paired with a stellar amp it works pretty well and has insanely great bass impact. No comparison between the DAC section of a DFR and a Gustard X20U DAC though; the DFR just doesn't have the detail and dynamic presentation of the X20U - nor would I expect it to with the X20U being a high end balanced DAC the size of a full-sized Blu-ray player.


----------



## Cheffy (Nov 20, 2017)

bmcelvan said:


> Upgrading your headphones might be a better upgrade than the mojo at first...doing both would obviously be the best
> 
> I've tried the ATH-m50x on three different occasions now (I mean purchased and used for a few days and subsequently returned) and have fallen back to my MDR-V6s as I just hear so much more of the music with them. The m50x seem to hide so many of the frequencies for me...most notably on guitars and pianos...it's like they just fall way off into the background! Seeing the mojo is $500+ I think you can get better cans for a lot less than that!
> 
> ...



For sure the mojo is a step up beyond and probably better fitted to a more high end setup and I don't really intend to go there yet! I did specifically give the caveat that I am using closed-back phones and acknowledged that they might be contributing to the duller mids, but it's not as though close-cans can't produce amazing mids. Other than that, the main criticism of my headphone selection would probably be that they are already easily driven and probably wouldn't benefit much from an amp. However, the amping of the DFR is pretty low relatively speaking, and the main value is from the DAC. I appreciate the sentiment and absolutely no offence intended, but if your reference phone is the MDR-V6 I'm not sure you're in a position to critique my choice in headphones. The ($300) HP50s are my primary phone for listen to music, and while certainly not without their limits, they are broadly considered one of the best closed-back buys for sound under $500, so I don't think that's going to be an issue here. Even my Brainwavz HM5s are considered a better resolving phone than the MDR-V6. Anything more resolving than my HP50s might be underwhelmed by the DFR alone, and benefit from a more dedicated DAC/AMP setup or at least a separate amp with the DFR. I don't use my ATH-M50s much and while they are certainly coloured (and unreasonably criticised), they are an excellent entry-level audiophile phone with reasonable resolving capabilities that can definitely benefit from a DAC. There are at least a couple reviews of the DFR where people have specifically used the ATH-M50 (in addition to other phones) and found considerable improvement, particularly with respect to soundstage, tightening the bass control, emphasising the mids better, and offsetting some of the fatigue from the highs. The mojo would clearly be overkill here though!

I intend to get a nice set of open-backs one day (maybe the HD-600/650, HiFiman 400/560, or OPPO-PM2). Then maybe consider something like the mojo, though probably not with portability in mind. But between my current three phones, one of which is (HP50s) that goes head to head with the OPPO-PM3, I think I'm set for now. I just want to get the most out of them.


----------



## bmcelvan (Nov 20, 2017)

Cheffy said:


> For sure the mojo is a step up beyond and probably better fitted to a more high end setup and I don't really intend to go there yet! I did specifically give the caveat that I am using closed-back phones and acknowledged that they might be contributing to the duller mids, but it's not as though close-cans can't produce amazing mids. Other than that, the main criticism of my headphone selection would probably be that they are already easily driven and probably wouldn't benefit much from an amp. However, the amping of the DFR is pretty low relatively speaking, and the main value is from the DAC. I appreciate the sentiment and absolutely no offence intended, but if your reference phone is the MDR-V6 I'm not sure you're in a position to critique my choice in headphones. The ($300) HP50s are my primary phone for listen to music, and while certainly not without their limits, they are broadly considered one of the best closed-back buys for sound under $500, so I don't think that's going to be an issue here. Even my Brainwavz HM5s are considered a better resolving phone than the MDR-V6. Anything more resolving than my HP50s might be underwhelmed by the DFR alone, and benefit from a more dedicated DAC/AMP setup or at least a separate amp with the DFR. I don't use my ATH-M50s much and while they are certainly coloured (and unreasonably criticised), they are an excellent entry-level audiophile phone with reasonable resolving capabilities that can definitely benefit from a DAC. There are at least a couple reviews of the DFR where people have specifically used the ATH-M50 (in addition to other phones) and found considerable improvement, particularly with respect to soundstage, tightening the bass control, emphasising the mids better, and offsetting some of the fatigue from the highs. The mojo would clearly be overkill here though!
> 
> I intend to get a nice set of open-backs one day (maybe the HD-600/650, HiFiman 400/560, or OPPO-PM2). Then maybe consider something like the mojo, though probably not with portability in mind. But between my current three phones, one of which is (HP50s) that goes head to head with the OPPO-PM3, I think I'm set for now. I just want to get the most out of them.


No offense taken...I wasn't trying to state the mdr-v6 are the high quality reference headphone, simply that (to me) they put the m50x in the ground (even with the high treble boost issue). Although to your point, a much better DAC could only help them, probably a lot. My main point wasn't about bashing your headphones...I'm sorry if it came across that way...more about if your going to spend that much money on a DAC, maybe better HPs could be a next (potentially less expensive) step.

I didn't realize the HD50s cost that much, currently they are $179.99 on amazon, the same price I paid for my DT770s. I was just saying that I haven't been able to try them because they aren't sold locally in my area...but I really would like to try them.

To your last point...get the most out of them...I definitely think the DFR would help in that regard. To your mention of power, off my phone it just barely powered my DT770s (80) enough to be loud and would def need an amp...but off my PC it was fantastic!


----------



## good sound (Nov 20, 2017)

Cheffy said:


> For sure the mojo is a step up beyond and probably better fitted to a more high end setup and I don't really intend to go there yet! I did specifically give the caveat that I am using closed-back phones and acknowledged that they might be contributing to the duller mids, but it's not as though close-cans can't produce amazing mids. Other than that, the main criticism of my headphone selection would probably be that they are already easily driven and probably wouldn't benefit much from an amp. However, the amping of the DFR is pretty low relatively speaking, and the main value is from the DAC. I appreciate the sentiment and absolutely no offence intended, but if your reference phone is the MDR-V6 I'm not sure you're in a position to critique my choice in headphones. The ($300) HP50s are my primary phone for listen to music, and while certainly not without their limits, they are broadly considered one of the best closed-back buys for sound under $500, so I don't think that's going to be an issue here. Even my Brainwavz HM5s are considered a better resolving phone than the MDR-V6. Anything more resolving than my HP50s might be underwhelmed by the DFR alone, and benefit from a more dedicated DAC/AMP setup or at least a separate amp with the DFR. I don't use my ATH-M50s much and while they are certainly coloured (and unreasonably criticised), they are an excellent entry-level audiophile phone with reasonable resolving capabilities that can definitely benefit from a DAC. There are at least a couple reviews of the DFR where people have specifically used the ATH-M50 (in addition to other phones) and found considerable improvement, particularly with respect to soundstage, tightening the bass control, emphasising the mids better, and offsetting some of the fatigue from the highs. The mojo would clearly be overkill here though!
> 
> I intend to get a nice set of open-backs one day (maybe the HD-600/650, HiFiman 400/560, or OPPO-PM2). Then maybe consider something like the mojo, though probably not with portability in mind. But between my current three phones, one of which is (HP50s) that goes head to head with the OPPO-PM3, I think I'm set for now. I just want to get the most out of them.



I have owned both the NAD HP50's and the OPPO PM 3's at the same time. I enjoyed my time with the HP 50's, they are indeed one of the best values out there in closed back portable phones, no doubt, but to say they can go head to head with the PM 3's is in my opinion more than just a bit of a stretch. Don't get me wrong the HP 50's are fine headphones but the OPPO's are a clear step or two ahead in virtually every category as well they should be considering they are significantly more expensive than the NADs. This is why my PM 3's are my daily driver and the HP 50's are in the hands of a new owner.

Recently, however, I have had a couple of occasions to audition, at some length, the Mr. Speakers Aeon Flow. Basically twice the price of the PM 3's but unequivocally the best closed phone I have ever heard by a wide margin. The only real drawback of the Aeon's, other than their price, is that they are not really suited for on the go use. In any regard I have got the upgrade bug, bad, and don't really care how stupid I will look walking my dog with the Aeon's strapped to my noggin.

Oh, and just so I am not totally off topic, I used the PM 3's with a Dragonfly Red and a Motorola Moto G4 plus for sometime. Using an LG V20 now and the DFR is connected to my desktop PC.


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## Cheffy (Nov 20, 2017)

bmcelvan said:


> No offense taken...I wasn't trying to state the mdr-v6 are the high quality reference headphone, simply that (to me) they put the m50x in the ground (even with the high treble boost issue). Although to your point, a much better DAC could only help them, probably a lot. My main point wasn't about bashing your headphones...I'm sorry if it came across that way...more about if your going to spend that much money on a DAC, maybe better HPs could be a next (potentially less expensive) step.
> 
> I didn't realize the HD50s cost that much, currently they are $179.99 on amazon, the same price I paid for my DT770s. I was just saying that I haven't been able to try them because they aren't sold locally in my area...but I really would like to try them.
> 
> To your last point...get the most out of them...I definitely think the DFR would help in that regard. To your mention of power, off my phone it just barely powered my DT770s (80) enough to be loud and would def need an amp...but off my PC it was fantastic!



Thanks for taking it in the intended spirit. I am a beginner audiophile at best and still have a lot to learn, so I hope i didn't come across dismissive.  I appreciate all input.

That's a fantastic price for the HP50s - maybe that's a black friday special? They certainly have come down in price in Canada, now going for $250 CAD. I bought mine about a year ago, was $300 USD at the time. The biggest failing of the HP50s is the build quality and comfort, which is really hit and miss, depending on the individual. The sound is pretty amazing though.

I haven't heard the DT770s, but have heard many good things. Sounds like your power issue with the phone isn't a problem with the DFR but android. It caps the DFR volume down low, making it underwhelming. Have you tried using the UAPP app (USB Audio Player Pro) or Hibymusic? You can bypass that volume limit using these software, but they can't handle streaming (UAPP supports tidal but that's it). Using either one gives me way more volume on my phone than I could ever use really.


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## Cheffy (Nov 20, 2017)

good sound said:


> I have owned both the NAD HP50's and the OPPO PM 3's at the same time. I enjoyed my time with the HP 50's, they are indeed one of the best values out there in closed back portable phones, no doubt, but to say they can go head to head with the PM 3's is in my opinion more than just a bit of a stretch. Don't get me wrong the HP 50's are fine headphones but the OPPO's are a clear step or two ahead in virtually every category as well they should be considering they are significantly more expensive than the NADs. This is why my PM 3's are my daily driver and the HP 50's are in the hands of a new owner.
> 
> Recently, however, I have had a couple of occasions to audition, at some length, the Mr. Speakers Aeon Flow. Basically twice the price of the PM 3's but unequivocally the best closed phone I have ever heard by a wide margin. The only real drawback of the Aeon's, other than their price, is that they are not really suited for on the go use. In any regard I have got the upgrade bug, bad, and don't really care how stupid I will look walking my dog with the Aeon's strapped to my noggin.
> 
> Oh, and just so I am not totally off topic, I used the PM 3's with a Dragonfly Red and a Motorola Moto G4 plus for sometime. Using an LG V20 now and the DFR is connected to my desktop PC.



I haven't listened to the OPPO-PM3 myself so I was just going by what some reviewers have said (e.g. innerfidelity and others here on Head-fi) - some seemed to prefer the HP50s. I live in a small and somewhat remote city, so I have very limited opportunity to test headphones before buying them. But I don't doubt your impressions of the OPPO-PM3. I strongly considered them at the time I was buying the NAD HP50s and opted for the HP50s based on budget and supporting the "underdog" FWIW.

I would consider buying the PM3s now if I could sell my HP50s for a decent price. However, the retail price on the HP50s seems to be dropping meaning I won't get much, and the PM3s are probably only a minor upgrade to the HP50s, so I can't justify the cost at this time. At this point, I'll get more out of spending the money on a DAC like the DFR than a headphone upgrade. Maybe I'll give the Aeon's a try next year instead.


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## caballerolance (Nov 22, 2017)

QUESTION:

I bought a dragon fly red and I am also thinking on buying a good pair of open or closed headphones under 400 dollars. I plan to use the headphones to listen to music and watch movies at home. I dont use heaphones outside home.  I have very cheap headphones but i'd like a pair of good ones.

Could you give me some advice between five and ten headphones that fit well with the dragonfly red for pop music and drama movies on a tablet?

I wouldnt like to end up buying a pair of headphones that do not run well on dragon fly red. In other words, I began buying the dac, then the headphones.


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## Jearly410

caballerolance said:


> QUESTION:
> 
> I bought a dragon fly red and I am also thinking on buying a good pair of open or closed headphones under 400 dollars. I plan to use the headphones to listen to music and watch movies at home only.
> 
> ...



Because you like movies, I’d imagine a comfortable headphone is very important. Look into the audioquest nightowl/hawk as it will provide amazing comfort as well as a non fatiguing sound.


----------



## ninetylol

Fidelio X2 would be another option


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## VRacer-111 (Nov 22, 2017)

At the upper end of your range, Fostex TH-X00 pairs very well with a DFR and tablet...It's good stock, but even better with Lawton driver dampening installed and different pads with custom attenuators - approaches TOTL level sound.
Philips SHP9500s pair well too. The Monolith M1060 goes fairly well with DFR too, more relaxed sounding than TH-X00PH for movies and music.


----------



## musicfan145

caballerolance said:


> QUESTION:
> 
> I bought a dragon fly red and I am also thinking on buying a good pair of open or closed headphones under 400 dollars. I plan to use the headphones to listen to music and watch movies at home. I dont use heaphones outside home.  I have very cheap headphones but i'd like a pair of good ones.
> 
> ...


At the 400 USD price point, the Oppo PM-3 should definitely be on your list to audition. They are designed for portable use, so the DFR has plenty of power for them.


----------



## Cheffy

caballerolance said:


> QUESTION:
> 
> I bought a dragon fly red and I am also thinking on buying a good pair of open or closed headphones under 400 dollars. I plan to use the headphones to listen to music and watch movies at home. I dont use heaphones outside home.  I have very cheap headphones but i'd like a pair of good ones.
> 
> ...




That question is better suited to a headphone section of the forum. Virtually all headphones will work well with the DFR unless they're really hard to drive, which probably won't be the case for <$400. Do some research and figure out the sound you want. The DFR will just work with it.


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## VRacer-111

Cheffy said:


> That question is better suited to a headphone section of the forum. Virtually all headphones will work well with the DFR unless they're really hard to drive, which probably won't be the case for <$400. Do some research and figure out the sound you want. The DFR will just work with it.



I know of one that doesn't pair particularly well with the DFR - MrSpeakers Aeon. Very anemic sounding on the DFR, detailed but anemic in presentation.


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## caballerolance

Cheffy said:


> That question is better suited to a headphone section of the forum. Virtually all headphones will work well with the DFR unless they're really hard to drive, which probably won't be the case for <$400. Do some research and figure out the sound you want. The DFR will just work with it.


ok. I didn´t know that Cheffy.  A question.  Do you mean 600ohms+ by really hard to drive?


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## Cheffy

caballerolance said:


> ok. I didn´t know that Cheffy.  A question.  Do you mean 600ohms+ by really hard to drive?



Just trying to put you in a direction where you'll probably find more answers, not turn you away!

r.e. 600 ohms - could be, but ohms aren't the only consideration with how hard it might be to drive some headphones. You'd need to read up on the specific headphone and determine what you might need. The more legwork you do in advance, the more specific your questions will be, and you'll get better and more specific answers!


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## musicfan145 (Nov 23, 2017)

Cheffy said:


> Just trying to put you in a direction where you'll probably find more answers, not turn you away!
> 
> r.e. 600 ohms - could be, but ohms aren't the only consideration with how hard it might be to drive some headphones. You'd need to read up on the specific headphone and determine what you might need. The more legwork you do in advance, the more specific your questions will be, and you'll get better and more specific answers!



@caballerolance, It has as much to do with efficiency as impedance. The Fostex RP series is 50 Ohms, but very inefficient. The DFR doesn’t have nearly enough power to do them justice.

I think the key is to look for headphones in the “portable” category (designed to be driven directly by a mobile phone or DAP). Anything in that category should be even better with the DFR.

But as @Cheffy pointed out, 1) most headphones under $400 are “portables,” 2) you’ll likely get more/better recommendations in the “headphones” forum(s), and 3) even there, you’ll want to include details about what kind of music and sound signature you like.


----------



## stansmiths

I've read complaints about the Dragonfly's clipping @ high volume levels, what are yall's opinion on that?


----------



## Cheffy

stansmiths said:


> I've read complaints about the Dragonfly's clipping @ high volume levels, what are yall's opinion on that?



Absolutely not the case at all here. Where have you read that?  If there are issues it's probably related to android/IOS/cable/headphone problems, not the DF itself.


----------



## brad713

Hi All, I currently have a Dragonfly Red that’s worked pretty well with my past two iPhones. However, after recently upgrading to an iPhone X, I’m getting frequent glitches and cutouts that are driving me crazy.  They specifically occur when I'm holding/using the phone.  Audioquest’s customer support was less than helpful as they just blame it on Apple. It is in fact probably Apple’s issue, but they clearly state on their page it is compatible with iOS devices, but I digress. I have tried more cables than I’m willing to admit with no luck.  Has anybody else had any issues with the iPhone X and DFR?

It's gotten to the point where it defeats the point of using the DFR, and was considering the oppo ha-2se.  However, I've seen people mention issues with iOS devices with this dac/amp as well.  Do you think it's worth a shot trying out this option even though they both utilize the lightning out port (albeit with slightly different cable configurations)? My last resort is just using a standalone player like the fiio x7 mark ii, but don't really want to pay the premium if I don't have to.  Appreciate any thoughts on the matter.


----------



## Cheffy

Really enjoying the sound of my DFB with my NAD HP50s, keeps sounding better and better. I've found the mid-range response on a small number of songs a little flat and sometimes muddled though, especially for piano, but bass is reasonably tight and vocals are usually crystal clear. Anyone else notice this? Might be the songs themselves, but I think the DFB enhances this effect a little. So was thinking of going to the DFR instead for improved clarity, but the extra $100 could go a long ways to a new set of headphones! All my current phones are closed-back, so they might not be able to do the mids justice.

Question to all those who own both the DFB and DFR - why did you keep both, and for which genres of music do you prefer one over the other? Please note the headphones you use and your impression of the headphone sound signature as well as what the DF brings to the table.


----------



## stellarelephant

I have only heard the black but I would agree with you that its sound runs cool...without midrange emphasis compared to other DACs I have heard.


----------



## Damien Chung

Does the black still support Iphone 7 plus?


----------



## Hariz Nordin (Nov 25, 2017)

Anyone of u guys using the DFB with Motorola moto g5 plus?
Any issues?
Planning to get it tomorrow


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## Amitl (Nov 25, 2017)

Hello everyone,
I have a noob question..
I never tried a dedicated dac like the Dragonfly before, I always listened to low impedance earphones/headphones (Sony mdr-ex650 , Vsonic vsd3s , JVC ha-fxt90 , Sennheiser Amperior), So my question is - will I hear any improvement in sound quality using the Dragonfly rather than plugging straight to my Sony Z3 compact phone?
Maybe it's worth mentioning I can't hear a difference in SQ comparing my Sony to my mom's Xiaomi.
Thanx!


----------



## Donie Ray Samba-an

Cheffy said:


> Really enjoying the sound of my DFB with my NAD HP50s, keeps sounding better and better. I've found the mid-range response on a small number of songs a little flat and sometimes muddled though, especially for piano, but bass is reasonably tight and vocals are usually crystal clear. Anyone else notice this? Might be the songs themselves, but I think the DFB enhances this effect a little. So was thinking of going to the DFR instead for improved clarity, but the extra $100 could go a long ways to a new set of headphones! All my current phones are closed-back, so they might not be able to do the mids justice.
> 
> Question to all those who own both the DFB and DFR - why did you keep both, and for which genres of music do you prefer one over the other? Please note the headphones you use and your impression of the headphone sound signature as well as what the DF brings to the table.


That is an iOS11 problem. Not Adioquest's


----------



## Cheffy

Amitl said:


> Hello everyone,
> I have a noob question..
> I never tried a dedicated dac like the Dragonfly before, I always listened to low impedance earphones/headphones (Sony mdr-ex650 , Vsonic vsd3s , JVC ha-fxt90 , Sennheiser Amperior), So my question is - will I hear any improvement in sound quality using the Dragonfly rather than plugging straight to my Sony Z3 compact phone?
> Maybe it's worth mentioning I can't hear a difference in SQ comparing my Sony to my mom's Xiaomi.
> Thanx!



It always varies by person and phone, but there is little doubt that the DF generally improves sound quality for most devices that don't already have a higher-end DAC. Unless the Z3 has an especially good DAC - and I suspect it's pretty basic - using the DF should improve your listening experience regardless of how easy it is to drive your headphone.


----------



## Cheffy

Donie Ray Samba-an said:


> That is an iOS11 problem. Not Adioquest's



I think you meant to reply to someone else.


----------



## WoodyLuvr (Nov 26, 2017)

Cheffy said:


> It always varies by person and phone, but there is little doubt that the DF generally improves sound quality for most devices that don't already have a higher-end DAC. Unless the Z3 has an especially good DAC - and I suspect it's pretty basic - using the DF should improve your listening experience regardless of how easy it is to drive your headphone.


The difference one hears is more than likely attributed to increased amplification and improved volume control and probably not so much the DAC as most modern DACs these days are nearly equal in performance (audibly speaking and proven in blind testing)... but of course some DACs are better than others but that is more on how well they are implemented in the audio circuit (the same is very true for op amps as well; if they are implemented well an older sub $1 op amp can easily match a $50+ variant in performance).


----------



## WoodyLuvr

Cheffy said:


> Question to all those who own both the DFB and DFR - why did you keep both, and for which genres of music do you prefer one over the other? Please note the headphones you use and your impression of the headphone sound signature as well as what the DF brings to the table.


I ended up staying with the DFB, with the Jitterbug, as I prefer its lower volume control.  The DFB is much easier to fine tune and adjust at lower volumes with my 32 ohm (95 dB/mW SPL) cans than on the Red which was much, much louder due to its higher amp output.  I will also admit that I found an ever so slightly darker/softer (more mellow?) sound signature with the Black compared to the Red which I find improves the bass frequencies with my preferred music genre. But I wouldn't say it was a significant difference.

I have tested the DFB with a number of different headphones and I believe AudioQuest's recommendation that the DFB be used with low impedance cans up to 150 ohms (maybe 80 ohms would be better) and the DFR for the higher impedance cans over 150 ohms is generally spot on.


----------



## Cheffy (Nov 26, 2017)

WoodyLuvr said:


> The difference one hears is more than likely attributed to increased amplification and improved volume control and probably not so much the DAC as most modern DACs these days are nearly equal in performance (audibly speaking and proven in blind testing)... but of course some DACs are better than others but that is more on how well they are implemented in the audio circuit (the same is very true for op amps as well; if they are implemented well an older sub $1 op amp can easily match a $50+ variant in performance).



Interesting info/take on the DAC, I've not head this before. Can you point me in the direction of some more info on this so I can better educate myself? I tend to the more skeptical side of things like claimed audio differences based on trivial components (e.g. cable materials) but I was under the impression that the DAC can be a pretty big component of difference.



WoodyLuvr said:


> I ended up staying with the DFB, with the Jitterbug, as I prefer its lower volume control.  The DFB is much easier to fine tune and adjust at lower volumes with my 32 ohm (95 dB/mW SPL) cans than on the Red which was much, much louder due to its higher amp output.  I will also admit that I found an ever so slightly darker/softer (more mellow?) sound signature with the Black compared to the Red which I find improves the bass frequencies with my preferred music genre. But I wouldn't say it was a significant difference.
> 
> I have tested the DFB with a number of different headphones and I believe AudioQuest's recommendation that the DFB be used with low impedance cans up to 150 ohms (maybe 80 ohms would be better) and the DFR for the higher impedance cans over 150 ohms is generally spot on.



Also interesting - I'd heard that the lower volume steps for the DFR were smaller than the DFB, allowing for better volume tuning.

I'm contemplating a pair of open back phones, and knowing these tend to be more neutral/lighter in body and benefit from amping, I'm considering that the DFR might be a better option than DFB (especially for the AKG-7xx).


----------



## WoodyLuvr (Nov 26, 2017)

Cheffy said:


> Interesting info/take on the DAC, I've not head this before. Can you point me in the direction of some more info on this so I can better educate myself? I tend to the more skeptical side of things like claimed audio differences based on trivial components (e.g. cable materials) but I was under the impression that the DAC can be a pretty big component of difference.


Here are a few interesting links you could start off with... read, ponder, and then draw your own conclusions:
*http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/high-end-pc-audio,3733.html
http://www.harbeth.co.uk/usergroup/...n/2436-are-all-dacs-the-same-an-investigation*
*https://www.head-fi.org/threads/all-dacs-sound-the-same.560122/*
*http://blog.jdslabs.com/?p=612/best-dac/*



Cheffy said:


> Also interesting - I'd heard that the lower volume steps for the DFR were smaller than the DFB, allowing for better volume tuning.


Very good point, although the DFR does have more available volume steps it is harder to fine tune at lower volumes with sensitive lower impedance cans.  Test it and you will clearly see what I mean.  The DFB allows not only lower volume but increased ability to fine tune at the lowest volumes.



Cheffy said:


> I'm contemplating a pair of open back phones, and knowing these tend to be more neutral/lighter in body and benefit from amping, I'm considering that the DFR might be a better option than DFB (especially for the AKG-7xx).


Although they are only 62 ohms people mistakenly confuse the AKG-K7XX's 105 dB/V sensitivity rating with dB/mW and therefore believe that they are very easy to drive headphones when in fact they have a ~93 dB/mW SPL rating which is considered a medium (nearing low) sensitivity rating. The DFR with it's 2.1 Vrms power output would provide the AKG K7XXs 2 x ~70 mW @ 62 ohms reaching a target loudness of 111 dB SPL (widely accepted standard for target loudness for dynamic headroom is 110 dB SPL).  The DFB at 1.2 Vrms (independently tested at 1.3 Vrms) would provide 2 x ~25 mW reaching just over 106 dB SPL.  It has been recommended for open headphones to properly capture very dynamic pieces of music to have 20-30 dB above 85 dB SPL available for headroom, which would bring us to 105-115 dB SPL. Depending on your music genre and listening levels the DFB may suffice.

AKG K7XX with DFR:


----------



## WoodyLuvr

AKG K7XX with DFB:


----------



## Cheffy

That is fantastic, thank you for these materials and info - learning a lot here!


----------



## Cheffy

Well now I'm wondering if I should be just using a portable amp and not worrying about the dragonfly. If there really is no real difference in "good" DACs, the difference in DF models must come down to the difference in amplification...


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## WoodyLuvr (Nov 26, 2017)

Cheffy said:


> Well now I'm wondering if I should be just using a portable amp and not worrying about the dragonfly. If there really is no real difference in "good" DACs, the difference in DF models must come down to the difference in amplification...


It all comes down to what matches well with your headphones; what you can personally hear; and what you are ultimately happy with.  This can be a very expensive hobby especially if you fall into the good ole' rabbit hole.  With that said, a very nice audiophile level setup can be had if wisely chosen and for a humble investment.

Adequately powered quality headphones is typically considered the most important part of the audio chain, as well as having decent music files (eg. "crap in = crap out")... amps, DACs, cables, etc. are icing on the cake. Remember that there is a point of diminishing returns... throwing any sum of money at any component in your system after reaching this point will only bring minuscule returns.  You need to decide where that point is for you.

If it is about the music then maybe a small investment is all that you really need to round out your system and the money saved by not "going full monty" can then go to more tunes and other life needs.


----------



## Cheffy

WoodyLuvr said:


> It all comes down to what matches well with your headphones; what you can personally hear; and what you are ultimately happy with.  This can be a very expensive hobby especially if you fall into the good ole' rabbit hole.  With that said, a very nice audiophile level setup can be had if wisely chosen and for a humble investment.
> 
> Adequately powered quality headphones is typically considered the most important part of the audio chain, as well as having decent music files (eg. "crap in = crap out")... amps, DACs, cables, etc. are icing on the cake. Remember that there is a point of diminishing returns... throwing any sum of money at any component in your system after reaching this point will only bring minuscule returns.  You need to decide where that point is for you.
> 
> If it is about the music then maybe a small investment is all that you really need to round out your system and the money saved by not "going full monty" can then go to more tunes and other life needs.



Expensive indeed!! I'm definitely trying to keep within a reasonable budget here, but it's kind of fun trying different things. I'm still contemplating ordering the DFR to A/B test with the AFB, but it might be that the sound I seek has more to do with the headphones. Unfortunately, I have no good local place to test headphones.


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## Cheffy (Nov 26, 2017)

I just ordered a pair of Philips SHP9500s. I know they're easy to drive, but I'm sure an amp will help flesh them out. The DFB should be more than good enough and perhaps the DFR better yet, but I wonder if instead it might it makes sense to pick up an O2 amp and run my desktop via my DFB to the O2 and then headphones. If indeed the DAC makes no difference, then it's the voltage/amping that gives the DFR the alleged edge over the DFB in clarity. And an O2 amp would be versatile for future headphone purchases no doubt, perhaps more so than the DFR?

EDIT - Or, maybe just hold onto the DFB for now, then wait for massdrop to hopefully bring back the grace SDAC/O2 amp combo.

https://www.massdrop.com/buy/massdrop-o2-sdac-dac-amp/talk

(BTW - it occurs to me that I seem to be in the early stages of a hifi addiction...)


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## caballerolance (Nov 26, 2017)

Hi!  I will buy he400s for dragonfly red.     

Thanks for your advice.


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## ninetylol

damn you americans with you low priced audio products. in germany we like always have to pay 50% more!

on a side note im very happy with my Philips X2 and the DFR so the 9500 should be pretty close


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## Cheffy (Nov 26, 2017)

ninetylol said:


> damn you americans with you low priced audio products. in germany we like always have to pay 50% more!
> 
> on a side note im very happy with my Philips X2 and the DFR so the 9500 should be pretty close



Well I'm Canadian so not as cheap here as the USA, and our dollar has been weak the past while so prices have gone up even more. But definitely cheaper than in Germany by the sound of it! I hope have a listen to the X2 one day - I think I'd like the sound, but I think it's a little specific in sound colouration for my needs. Plus it doesn't even seem to be available for purchase anywhere that I can find.


----------



## ninetylol

Yeah they sold off the last charges of the normal non HR version in the last weeks. I was lucky enough to get them for 130€ which was a no brainer and Im happy since  I still cant decide if i really need the extra Fiio A5 in combination with the DFR though. The X2 are fairly easy to drive and i think im reaching diminishing returns here.


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## WoodyLuvr

Yeah that is a hard one though so many on


ninetylol said:


> Yeah they sold off the last charges of the normal non HR version in the last weeks. I was lucky enough to get them for 130€ which was a no brainer and Im happy since  I still cant decide if i really need the extra Fiio A5 in combination with the DFR though. The X2 are fairly easy to drive and i think im reaching diminishing returns here.


Probably don't need the A5 as the DFR's 2.1 Vrms will be supplying more than 2 x 145 mW @ 30 ohms which could take the X2s to an ear shattering 121 dB!  Even the DFB would give you 2 x 52 mW @ 30 ohms for a max loudness of 117 dB which is well beyond what you need!  Though some people don't prefer and/or recommend integrated op amp/DAC combinations like the DragonFlys, nor do they believe that usb power/audio on the same line sound is good, or do they find that usb power is enough and therefore would recommend you get the A5 even before the DFR. Horses for courses.


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## ninetylol

I didnt buy the Fiio A5 for volume but for sound quality. Ive read a comment here, that said the the Fiio A5 and DFR are a wonderful paring and add a lot of clarity and bass. A lot is highly subjective though and i still cant decide if i hear the differences or not. I guess its more a placebo peace of mind thingy


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## MysticLeviathan

Sorry if this has already been answered before.

I just got an iPhone X and a Dragonfly Red.  I currently have a pair of 1More Quad IEMs.  On my laptop, plugging in the Dragonfly, it sounds incredible.  Soundstage is very wide and the sound is super crisp and overall sounds significantly better than the built in headphone jack.  When I use the Dragonfly on my iPhone X via the USB Camera adapter, the sound isn't remotely as good.  It still sounds better than using Apple's included headphone adapter, but the soundstage is significantly narrowed and it sounds much muddier, far less crisp and clean.  Is that to be expected?  I'm very new to this kind of stuff, but my understanding is that it shouldn't make a difference where you put the Dragonfly, as it's the DAC that makes the sound, not the device that's using it . So regardless of the device, assuming you're using the same headphones, it'll sound exactly the same if you're using the Dragonfly.   Or is it that the Lightning jack isn't giving the DAC enough power?  Or is it iOS?  

Am i mistaken that it should sound the same as on my laptop, or am I doing something wrong?  Should the Dragonfly sound as good on the iPhone as it does on my laptop?  Thanks.


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## Nevi (Nov 29, 2017)

I have just got an Iphone 8+. First I tried with DF red with the adapter, but it was not as good as my old android Sony Z5 phone (sounded great). Then I tried a pair of Audeze SINE with the cipher cable, and that was really good. Better than my Android with DFR. I saw another writing about the bad sound he got from an Iphone X with DFR, so it seems there is a problem with the new Iphones and DF? Have anybody tried with Iphone 7 or 6?


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## alterndog

I just bought a DF black. I'm using it with a galaxy S8, but have a question. I'm connecting the DF black with an Anker otg cable and using the stock Samsung Music app to play FLAC/WAV files. 

When using my HE400i with the DFB I still have to have the volume up to about 70-75 percent to get decent sound. This is about the same volume level I use when plugging in the He400i straight into the headphone jack. 

Is this normal? I'd have thought the volume level required would be lower with the DFB.


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## Devodonaldson

alterndog said:


> I just bought a DF black. I'm using it with a galaxy S8, but have a question. I'm connecting the DF black with an Anker otg cable and using the stock Samsung Music app to play FLAC/WAV files.
> 
> When using my HE400i with the DFB I still have to have the volume up to about 70-75 percent to get decent sound. This is about the same volume level I use when plugging in the He400i straight into the headphone jack.
> 
> Is this normal? I'd have thought the volume level required would be lower with the DFB.


Search Dragonfly volume issues. Android defaults Dragonfly volume at approximately 40%. First update Dragonfly using Audioquest computer ipdater app. Then you'll need sn app like USB audio player pro to change Dragonfly internal volume. Actually, search for my posts on this thread. I've given out detailed instructions to several individuals


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## seanc6441 (Dec 1, 2017)

Nevi said:


> I have just got an Iphone 8+. First I tried with DF red with the adapter, but it was not as good as my old android Sony Z5 phone (sounded great). Then I tried a pair of Audeze SINE with the cipher cable, and that was really good. Better than my Android with DFR. I saw another writing about the bad sound he got from an Iphone X with DFR, so it seems there is a problem with the new Iphones and DF? Have anybody tried with Iphone 7 or 6?


+1

I have an iphone 6s and I'll considering the DFR but I'd like to know from others with this or a similar iphone combo if the sound quality is worth the price or if the DFR will not perform as well out of my source as a laptop for example. I'll be using it with earbuds (mostly 12-32 ohms, medium-high sensitivity)

Is there any other portable dac I should consider for my 6s? It's quite difficult to find something that's under $200 to pair with this phone that doesn't have it's own issues from what I read...

Any help would be appreciated.


----------



## JayNetTech5

How does the Red sound in comparison to the Black? I've owned the Black, and I thought it sounded way too thin and linear with a bit too much upper-midrange push and such a limited soundstage for my taste. Is the Red really worth $200?


----------



## Cheffy

JayNetTech5 said:


> How does the Red sound in comparison to the Black? I've owned the Black, and I thought it sounded way too thin and linear with a bit too much upper-midrange push and such a limited soundstage for my taste. Is the Red really worth $200?



I own the black but have never head the red. If it sounds thin, it's your headphones or source. Several here who've used both have suggested the black - if anything - is warmer than the red.


----------



## JayNetTech5

Cheffy said:


> I own the black but have never head the red. If it sounds thin, it's your headphones or source. Several here who've used both have suggested the black - if anything - is warmer than the red.


 I currently use the AD700X. Using the DragonFly Black, I thought it sounded way too punchy, and thought it was appropriate more for like punk or something. lol


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## VRacer-111 (Dec 1, 2017)

Red is better than Black in basically every way, clearer, more dynamic, better detail, CLEAN bass. Pair Red up with an awesome warm leaning amp and bass impacts and extension is absolutely beautiful, better than the sloppy bass from the Black. Only thing Black is better at is when used in PA system (like this which is what I use the black with) to keep the speakers more laid back sounding (because more rolled off in highs) so you can have the music be pleasant at listening volume.


----------



## WoodyLuvr

VRacer-111 said:


> Red is better than Black in basically every way, clearer, more dynamic, better detail, CLEAN bass. Pair Red up with an awesome warm leaning amp and bass impacts and extension is absolutely beautiful, better than the sloppy bass from the Black. Only thing Black is better at is when used in PA system (like this which is what I use the black with) to keep the speakers more laid back sounding (because more rolled off in highs) so you can have the music be pleasant at listening volume.


This blanket statement/opinion/personal experience as welcome and informative as it may be could pose some problems for those owning sensitive low impedance headphones whose sound signature and/or low end volume control could actually be adversely effected by to much power/gain from the DFR.

I believe the Dragon Flys as any other amp need to be tested with a particular headphone to see if they work well together and offer a pleasing sound to an individual's ears and listening preferences.


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## WoodyLuvr (Dec 2, 2017)

Sloppy, thin, punchy... never experienced that with the DFB especially in regards to the bass. I think it may be highly dependent on headphone, source,  and music genre.

I had wrongly thought I was experiencing some bass roll off from the Black when in fact it was source related (Foobar 2K) and quite noticeable when corrected.


----------



## 435279

Sounding good to me.


----------



## JayNetTech5

Also keep in mind, I actually use these portables for desktop use, even if it looks ghetto af. lol

I was looking into the E10k, but based on what I've read, it doesn't seem like something I'd like sound-wise, and I'm already starting to dislike the sound of my FiiO K1, which has similar specs. However, I need to get my hands on the DF Red some day.


----------



## VRacer-111

WoodyLuvr said:


> This blanket statement/opinion/personal experience as welcome and informative as it may be could pose some problems for those owning sensitive low impedance headphones whose sound signature and/or low end volume control could actually be adversely effected by to much power/gain from the DFR.
> 
> I believe the Dragon Flys as any other amp need to be tested with a particular headphone to see if they work well together and offer a pleasing sound to an individual's ears and listening preferences.



True, depends on the headphones paired with it...I love the DFR with warm leaning headphones. My favorite combo is modded TH-X00PH, with DFR and modded Gustard H10 amp. Has everything; clarity, detail, precision, bass extension, bass impact, lush mids with clear vocals, and energetic highs that stay below fatiguing. Works equally well with acoustic and electronic music.


----------



## JayNetTech5

I like a warm, smooth, clean, and highly detailed signature. From what I've read about the DF Red so far, it seems to capitalize on the Black in most or all of those areas. What makes me skeptical though is the price, especially after seeing the higher end DAC model ESS9018 being implemented in cheaper products and seeing people enjoying those, I wonder what makes this worth the $200?


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## PeteMtl (Dec 2, 2017)

JayNetTech5 said:


> I like a warm, smooth, clean, and highly detailed signature. From what I've read about the DF Red so far, it seems to capitalize on the Black in most or all of those areas. What makes me skeptical though is the price, especially after seeing the higher end DAC model ESS9018 being implemented in cheaper products and seeing people enjoying those, I wonder what makes this worth the $200?



The DFR sounds excellent and the DAC and digital volume amplifier are very well implemented, and compatible with Windows, Android, OSX and IOS sources. It is worth its price, far more powerful (voltage) than the Black. You know that in bulk prices the Dacs are worth only a few dollars, like maybe 3 or 4$? The DAC doesn’t make the final product sound worse or better. It’s how well it’s implemented with the op amp, the input USB clock implementation, etc. Which specific competitive units are you talking about? Are they iOS and Android compatible without a power hub (most are not), Are they as compact, as great sounding? Are they as reliable? May they also be used in DAC mode with quality that approaches standalone desktop DACs ? I’m not an engineer, but a user of the DFR for close to a year and I can tell you it is worth its whole 200$ price, both as a portable dac/amp and as in DAC mode inputing a desktop headphone amp. It’s that good.


----------



## JayNetTech5

PeteMtl said:


> The DFR sounds excellent and the DAC and digital volume amplifier are very well implemented, and compatible with Windows, Android, OSX and IOS sources. It is worth its price, far more powerful (voltage) than the Black. You know that in bulk prices the Dacs are worth only a few dollars, like maybe 3 or 4$? The DAC doesn’t make the final product sound worse or better. It’s how well it’s implemented with the op amp, the input USB clock implementation, etc. Which specific competitive units are you talking about? Are they iOS and Android compatible without a power hub (most are not), Are they as compact, as great sounding? Are they as reliable? May they also be used in DAC mode with quality that approaches standalone desktop DACs ? I’m not an engineer, but a user of the DFR for close to a year and I can tell you it is worth its whole 200$ price, both as a portable dac/amp and as in DAC mode inputing a desktop headphone amp. It’s that good.


 How is it with efficient headphones, like between 16-100ohms?


----------



## PeteMtl (Dec 2, 2017)

JayNetTech5 said:


> How is it with efficient headphones, like between 16-100ohms?



I never use it with my Amperior or Momentum, there is no use, it beats the purpose, the DAC and amp in my Apple products are high quality, amd these headphone are quite capable to be driven directly by my Apple MacBook Pro, iPad Pro and iPhone. I use the DFR mostly with my higher impedance headphones (HD600, HD6xx) and sometimes with my HD25-1 II (70 ohms) and the result is very good. It’s all I can say... If I was an Android or Windows kind of guy then I would probably use the DFR with all my low impedance headphones...


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## VRacer-111 (Dec 2, 2017)

JayNetTech5 said:


> I like a warm, smooth, clean, and highly detailed signature. From what I've read about the DF Red so far, it seems to capitalize on the Black in most or all of those areas. What makes me skeptical though is the price, especially after seeing the higher end DAC model ESS9018 being implemented in cheaper products and seeing people enjoying those, I wonder what makes this worth the $200?



It's a DAC/amp the size of a normal USB thumbdrive which works on most any Windows, Android, Mac, and iOS device and is clearer and more dynamic sounding than a Schiit Bifrost 4490 DAC (but doesn't quite have the same detail level or bass level). Feed it into a powerful, high current warm leaning amp (like the Gustard H10) with detailed, warm leaning cans and wow...much better sounding than Schiit Bifrost. Instantly upgrade your vehicle audio system as well when used in vehicle with phone or tablet, more so than the DFB because of the cleaner more detailed sound. Can find some good deals on the DFR in the classifieds here, but I would gladly pay full price for DFR over the DFB at any price.


----------



## Donie Ray Samba-an

Has anyone here managed to make DFR plus apple cck2 work with ipod touch 6th gen? I am currently using this with my iPhone SE without any problems. I am just wondering if it will be the same with iPod touch 6th gen. Btw im on iOs10.3.3


----------



## JayNetTech5

PeteMtl said:


> I never use it with my Amperior or Momentum, there is no use, it beats the purpose, the DAC and amp in my Apple products are high quality, amd these headphone are quite capable to be driven directly by my Apple MacBook Pro, iPad Pro and iPhone. I use the DFR mostly with my higher impedance headphones (HD600, HD6xx) and sometimes with my HD25-1 II (70 ohms) and the result is very good. It’s all I can say... If I was an Android or Windows kind of guy then I would probably use the DFR with all my low impedance headphones...


 I never truly enjoyed the sound quality of any iPod that I've used, same goes for most of my computers. The best sound I've heard from a portable device was probably the original Sandisk Sansa Clip; that was nice to have until the USB port broke...


----------



## Devodonaldson

JayNetTech5 said:


> I like a warm, smooth, clean, and highly detailed signature. From what I've read about the DF Red so far, it seems to capitalize on the Black in most or all of those areas. What makes me skeptical though is the price, especially after seeing the higher end DAC model ESS9018 being implemented in cheaper products and seeing people enjoying those, I wonder what makes this worth the $200?


The red is very detailed. The implementation of that 9010 smacks the black around, easily. BUT, it's not a very warm presentation. I've actually had better experience by combining the RED with a relatively warm portable amp. Soundstage widens, overall becomes more musical, with still very good detail. The combination has tempered my desire for a mojo, at 3/4 the price. DFR+JDS Labs C5


----------



## WoodyLuvr

Devodonaldson said:


> The red is very detailed. The implementation of that 9010 smacks the black around, easily. BUT, it's not a very warm presentation. I've actually had better experience by combining the RED with a relatively warm portable amp. Soundstage widens, overall becomes more musical, with still very good detail. The combination has tempered my desire for a mojo, at 3/4 the price. DFR+JDS Labs C5


I believe you mean the ES9016... the ES9010 is in the Black.

With which headphones does the Red smack the Black around?


----------



## JayNetTech5

What is the purpose of combining an amp with one of the DF models if they already have an amp built in? I'm just curious.


----------



## Devodonaldson

WoodyLuvr said:


> I believe you mean the ES9016... the ES9010 is in the Black.
> 
> With which headphones does the Red smack the Black around?


Lol. Yes I meant 9016. It's not the headphones. It's clarity and detail. Black is a bit warmer but Red is the more detailed. I've experienced this with every pair of headphones or is I've used.


----------



## CactusPete23 (Dec 3, 2017)

JayNetTech5 said:


> What is the purpose of combining an amp with one of the DF models if they already have an amp built in? I'm just curious.



He did say this...  The DFR is a little cold, or bright sounding.   Though a warm amp that ends up normalizing to add some bass and reduce some high frequencies.  So, portable/"on the go" use just DFR.  At home DFR to a warm headphone amp, or a warm main amp may give more balanced sound.     DFR is pretty good, very detailed, by itself.  

Some folks pair the DFR with warmer sounding iems/headphones for same reason.

IF your iems/headphones are cold/bright sounding, DFR might  sound too cold/bright.

Generalizing what folks say in this thread.  Some love DFR.  Some Prefer the DFB because it's warmer, but a bit less detailed..


----------



## alterndog (Dec 3, 2017)

JayNetTech5 said:


> What is the purpose of combining an amp with one of the DF models if they already have an amp built in? I'm just curious.


Personally for me the DFB is a cheap portable amp/dac for my S8. While I'm home though I plan as using the DFB as my external dac for my laptop and pair it with a tube Amp (not sure which one yet, little dot I+ or Vali 2). This will power my hd6xx.

I like the versatility of the DFB.


----------



## WoodyLuvr

Devodonaldson said:


> Lol. Yes I meant 9016. It's not the headphones. It's clarity and detail. Black is a bit warmer but Red is the more detailed. I've experienced this with every pair of headphones or is I've used.


I guess the point I am trying to get across is that with certain low impedance headphones and IEMs that clarity and detail you speak of from the DFR may not be that notable nor will it offer any benefits, possibly opposite in fact... so in a sense it is about the headphones.  Headphone/speaker compatibility with amps/DACs is crucial and I don't think there are blanket products (especially amps/DACs) that will sound great with any/all headphones/speakers nor cover everyone's listening preference and volume.


----------



## VRacer-111

JayNetTech5 said:


> What is the purpose of combining an amp with one of the DF models if they already have an amp built in? I'm just curious.



While the DAC section is excellent, the amp section of the DFR/DFB doesn't allow for its full potential. On the go its fine enough, but if used for a desktop system, you could connect the DFR to a suitable external amp in line out mode to get noticeably better sound quality. Doesn't work well with all amps (Meier JAZZ-ff being one that doesn't pair well with it), but with a complimentary amp (the Gustard H10 is such one) you gain more detail, speed, dynamics, bass extension, and impact.


----------



## Devodonaldson

WoodyLuvr said:


> I guess the point I am trying to get across is that with certain low impedance headphones and IEMs that clarity and detail you speak of from the DFR may not be that notable nor will it offer any benefits, possibly opposite in fact... so in a sense it is about the headphones.  Headphone/speaker compatibility with amps/DACs is crucial and I don't think there are blanket products (especially amps/DACs) that will sound great with any/all headphones/speakers nor cover everyone's listening preference and volume.


V-Moda XS, Crossfade 2, Sennheiser Momentum, Monoprice m300, KZ ZST, AKG Q701, Audioquest Nightowl, Fostex T50rp. All very noticeable positive changes in detail retrieval, etc.


----------



## Cheffy

WoodyLuvr said:


> I guess the point I am trying to get across is that with certain low impedance headphones and IEMs that clarity and detail you speak of from the DFR may not be that notable nor will it offer any benefits, possibly opposite in fact... so in a sense it is about the headphones.  Headphone/speaker compatibility with amps/DACs is crucial and I don't think there are blanket products (especially amps/DACs) that will sound great with any/all headphones/speakers nor cover everyone's listening preference and volume.



It's definitely about the headphones. A transparent amp (ostensibly like the DFR) should sound "great" with any headphone in that it's meant to clean noise and showcase what that headphone does. If the listener doesn't like it, then they probably bought the wrong headphone for their tastes! That said, the brightness of certain phones might not be so apparent until the user hooks them up with a transparent amp, so if they want to tweak the sound a flavoured amp might be useful. Would be easier to tweak the EQ though.


----------



## JayNetTech5

Cheffy said:


> It's definitely about the headphones. A transparent amp (ostensibly like the DFR) should sound "great" with any headphone in that it's meant to clean noise and showcase what that headphone does. If the listener doesn't like it, then they probably bought the wrong headphone for their tastes! That said, the brightness of certain phones might not be so apparent until the user hooks them up with a transparent amp, so if they want to tweak the sound a flavoured amp might be useful. Would be easier to tweak the EQ though.


 Maybe I just pay attention to the littlest details, but I notice that pairing the same dac/amp with various headphones gives me a similar sound signature across the board with differences being the frequency response bump in some areas of those specific headphones. That's why I care so much about the quality of the source itself, so I can pair most of my headphones to it with little problems.


----------



## rbhelle

Hello. I have not read through 256 pages of posts in this forum, so hopefully I am excused when I post this question:
I just tried a DFR with Beyerdynamic DT770 Pro 80 ohm with a Huawei Mate 9 Pro with Android 7 Nougat. All is well but I must say that DFB has a lot more volume level than DFR. I also tested them in an Apple product, and then the result was reversed. The DFR had a lot more volum, than the DFB...Talked with the tech guys at a hifi store in Norway, and they said that this was a known issue with DFR and Android phones? So they recommended that Android users by DFB and Apple iphone/ipad users by the DFR.
Must say that I don`t actually hear any difference between those 2 DACs when connected to ac computer listening to Tidal best quality music....But I have some damage to mye ears as well, so maybe this is the reason.


----------



## silmusic

rbhelle said:


> All is well but I must say that DFB has a lot more volume level than DFR. I also tested them in an Apple product, and then the result was reversed.


Try Android with USB Audio Player PRO, HibyMusic, or Onkyo HF Player. All allow hardware volume control on external DAC.


----------



## Cheffy

JayNetTech5 said:


> Maybe I just pay attention to the littlest details, but I notice that pairing the same dac/amp with various headphones gives me a similar sound signature across the board with differences being the frequency response bump in some areas of those specific headphones. That's why I care so much about the quality of the source itself, so I can pair most of my headphones to it with little problems.



I guess it depends on what you're defining as source here. I take source to mean the actual digital file being played, and possibly the DAC. Since most DACs are largely regarded to have imperceptible differences unless they're old and/or a low quality unit, it's probably safe to say the source is file+DAC. And if that's the case, there shouldn't be any actual influence on the sound itself. After that, it's the amp and headphones that flavour the sound.

Using the same source, the most distinctive aspect of audio sound signature can usually be attributed to the headphones themselves - they're carefully tuned to provide a unique sound on the basis of driver selection, impedance, cup shape/materials, pad shape/materials, the room they're being used in, etc. There are far more factors influencing sound in headphones because there are so many physical components involved that can influence that sound. 

Amps themselves are typically less variable. Some amps clean the background noise better than others - this can influence things like detail, imaging, and soundstage. But all good quality amps should have a very low noise floor. Some can certainly flavour sound, potentially adding a little warmth, but to a much lower extent than the headphones themselves. Simply standardising the volume and gain between amps will probably sort out most if not all of that difference. In standardised blind tests, most perceived differences between amps mysteriously disappear...

Take this with a grain of salt of course - experiences can differ, and mixing different equipment with their own slight sound differences might create unique sound signatures. But in general, it seems that once differences in gain/volume are controlled, differences in sound signature are largely attributable to headphones. People really tend to over-estimate their ability to actually hear differences - most of us don't have "golden ears", and without years of dedicated formal training and experience, even golden ears aren't that golden.


----------



## Devodonaldson

rbhelle said:


> Hello. I have not read through 256 pages of posts in this forum, so hopefully I am excused when I post this question:
> I just tried a DFR with Beyerdynamic DT770 Pro 80 ohm with a Huawei Mate 9 Pro with Android 7 Nougat. All is well but I must say that DFB has a lot more volume level than DFR. I also tested them in an Apple product, and then the result was reversed. The DFR had a lot more volum, than the DFB...Talked with the tech guys at a hifi store in Norway, and they said that this was a known issue with DFR and Android phones? So they recommended that Android users by DFB and Apple iphone/ipad users by the DFR.
> Must say that I don`t actually hear any difference between those 2 DACs when connected to ac computer listening to Tidal best quality music....But I have some damage to mye ears as well, so maybe this is the reason.


You say you've read through 256 pages, but unfortunately you missed the numerous posts regarding this. Click on me and find my posts in this section. I've detailed instructions on more than one occasion


----------



## Cheffy

Devodonaldson said:


> You say you've read through 256 pages, but unfortunately you missed the numerous posts regarding this. Click on me and find my posts in this section. I've detailed instructions on more than one occasion



Actually they said they _didn't_ read 256 pages. 

It's not as easy to find as you might think by searching this website, especially when you don't know what the problem is. There should be a stickied thread somewhere with info on the mobile phones and volume issues.

More curiously - I'm not sure exactly what question rbhelle is asking!


----------



## rbhelle

silmusic said:


> Try Android with USB Audio Player PRO, HibyMusic, or Onkyo HF Player. All allow hardware volume control on external DAC.


Hi.

Thank you, I just bought and installed that USB Audio Player PRO and that completely solved my volume issues. I now have al lot higher volume output through DFB. It also worked with DFR, but since I boyúght the Black version I am going to stick with this. Unfortunately I cannot hear any specific difference in quality between these two when playing Tidal songs (highest quality) from my Mate 9 Pro and Beyerdynamic DT770 Pro 80 ohm. Probably my subjective hearing ears that are not normal  Anyway, thank you for the helping answer. Mostly grateful


----------



## Cheffy

rbhelle said:


> Hi.
> 
> Thank you, I just bought and installed that USB Audio Player PRO and that completely solved my volume issues. I now have al lot higher volume output through DFB. It also worked with DFR, but since I boyúght the Black version I am going to stick with this. Unfortunately I cannot hear any specific difference in quality between these two when playing Tidal songs (highest quality) from my Mate 9 Pro and Beyerdynamic DT770 Pro 80 ohm. Probably my subjective hearing ears that are not normal  Anyway, thank you for the helping answer. Mostly grateful



The difference is probably pretty subtle for the most part, so I wouldn't worry - if it sounds good, that's all that matters!


----------



## VRacer-111

To put it in headphone terms, the difference between the DFB and DFR to me is like the difference between an ATH-M50X and TH-X00PH...


----------



## Hariz Nordin

Hi guys, how do we charge our android phone while we are using the dragonfly through the USB otg cable?


----------



## Devodonaldson

Hariz Nordin said:


> Hi guys, how do we charge our android phone while we are using the dragonfly through the USB otg cable?


Either you have a device with another form of charging (wireless i.e. Samsung, LG, etc., Or ala Sony Z3 s magnetic charging port), or you simply don't charge while using an external DAC


----------



## bmcelvan

Hariz Nordin said:


> Hi guys, how do we charge our android phone while we are using the dragonfly through the USB otg cable?


I don't know what kind of phone you have but I can just place my Samsung galaxy on my wireless charger and it charges fine while (anything) is plugged into the usb slot.

https://www.amazon.com/Samsung-Cert...eywords=samsung+galaxy+wireless+charger&psc=1


----------



## CactusPete23

Hariz Nordin said:


> Hi guys, how do we charge our android phone while we are using the dragonfly through the USB otg cable?



Could try using a usb hub ?


----------



## Hariz Nordin

Devodonaldson said:


> Either you have a device with another form of charging (wireless i.e. Samsung, LG, etc., Or ala Sony Z3 s magnetic charging port), or you simply don't charge while using an external DAC


Thanks bro


----------



## Hariz Nordin

bmcelvan said:


> I don't know what kind of phone you have but I can just place my Samsung galaxy on my wireless charger and it charges fine while (anything) is plugged into the usb slot.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Samsung-Cert...eywords=samsung+galaxy+wireless+charger&psc=1


Mine is without wireless charging.. Btw, it's Motorola moto g5.. I'd like to charge it while on the go


----------



## Hariz Nordin

i read that got this new type of usb, usb hub with power delivery...


----------



## emusic13

Is there a transport/ dap thats smaller than the Shanling M1 for the Dragonfly?


----------



## seanc6441

emusic13 said:


> Is there a transport/ dap thats smaller than the Shanling M1 for the Dragonfly?


Ipod Nano 6th gen with apple cck cable? Dunno for sure if it would work but I think the nano is smaller than the M1


----------



## Devodonaldson

seanc6441 said:


> Ipod Nano 6th gen with apple cck cable? Dunno for sure if it would work but I think the nano is smaller than the M1


Nano doesn't work


----------



## DivaFonda (Dec 10, 2017)

VRacer-111 said:


> To put it in headphone terms, the difference between the DFB and DFR to me is like the difference between an ATH-M50X and TH-X00PH...



I was all set to buy the Red in-store from Best Buy/Magnolia but the only Red they had appeared used and returned so I bought the Black. I can see what you mean to some degree but I'm not getting the issues you mentioned before exactly. The bass issues occur when using already warm or bassy headphones with this warm DFB. I think DFB would be better with bright headphones. I'll probably end up buying Red eventually but so far I'm not that put off by the DFB. It just needs some treble to even it out.

I now see that the Nano iDSD Black Label is available for the same price as the DFR and I think that one would be more powerful. Just not as small and cute.


----------



## 435279

DivaFonda said:


> I was all set to buy the Red in-store from Best Buy/Magnolia but the only Red they had appeared used and returned so I bought the Black. I can see what you mean to some degree but I'm not getting the issues you mentioned before exactly. The bass issues occur when using already warm or bassy headphones with this warm DFB. I think DFB would be better with bright headphones. I'll probably end up buying Red eventually but so far I'm not that put off by the DFB. It just needs some treble to even it out.
> 
> I now see that the Nano iDSD Black Label is available for the same price as the DFR and I think that one would be more powerful. Just not as small and cute.



Nano BL has two main advantages for me, more power, it drives higher impedance headphones better and second a real volume control. The number of times I've plugged IEM's into the DFR and been blasted by very high volume, its the main reason why I don't use mine much.

The volume control on the Nano could also be a weakness for some too, it tends to adjust itself when used on the go. Its best to lock it in some way, I use a rubber band to hold it in place.


----------



## DivaFonda

SteveOliver said:


> Nano BL has two main advantages for me, more power, it drives higher impedance headphones better and second a real volume control. The number of times I've plugged IEM's into the DFR and been blasted by very high volume, its the main reason why I don't use mine much.
> 
> The volume control on the Nano could also be a weakness for some too, it tends to adjust itself when used on the go. Its best to lock it in some way, I use a rubber band to hold it in place.


 
Thanks for the thoughts on the Nano. That's my main issue with the price of the DFR. Many other DAC/Amps can be found with more powerful features for the same or lower price. I have one that was only around $100 and has gain, volume, bass and treble controls. I was all set to try DFR because of the confidence of the reviews on here though. However, DFB at half the price isn't as bad as I thought.


----------



## Devodonaldson

DivaFonda said:


> Thanks for the thoughts on the Nano. That's my main issue with the price of the DFR. Many other DAC/Amps can be found with more powerful features for the same or lower price. I have one that was only around $100 and has gain, volume, bass and treble controls. I was all set to try DFR because of the confidence of the reviews on here though. However, DFB at half the price isn't as bad as I thought.


You're also paying for form form factor as well. A 2.1v, 24/96 DAC with high detail, also an MQA renderer in the form of a flash drive.


----------



## VRacer-111

Devodonaldson said:


> You're also paying for form form factor as well. A 2.1v, 24/96 DAC with high detail, also an MQA renderer in the form of a flash drive.



The form factor makes it basically a bump on a cable - and easy for noticeably improving a vehicle's stock sound system, which is how I use it about half the time.


----------



## caballerolance

Personal Experience:  DRAGONFLY RED, BLACK AND JITTERBUG.

I have had some inexpensive dacs. I think Dragonfly red and black are slightly better than most afforable DACS in sound quality. Besides, they are INCREDIBLY better in portability. Combining both things, "Slighly better sound and incredible portabilty, these are the things to buy.

One more thing: The Jiggerbug combination with Dragonfly is a must for computer desks.   It really improves the sound, but only for computer desks (my experience).      I think the Jitterbug is not necesary for smartphones or tables.


----------



## Devodonaldson

caballerolance said:


> Personal Experience:  DRAGONFLY RED, BLACK AND JITTERBUG.
> 
> I have had some inexpensive dacs. I think Dragonfly red and black are slightly better than most afforable DACS in sound quality. Besides, they are INCREDIBLY better in portability. Combining both things, "Slighly better sound and incredible portabilty, these are the things to buy.
> 
> One more thing: The Jiggerbug combination with Dragonfly is a must for computer desks.   It really improves the sound, but only for computer desks (my experience).      I think the Jitterbug is not necesary for smartphones or tables.


In several different setups and tests with individuals both well versed and not in audio, dragonfly plus red was seen as a welcomed plus even for smartphone use. There is an added level of detail and better presence that justifies the $50 entry fee


----------



## clerkpalmer

noob question but can a DF Red or Black be used with a portable headphone amplifier as DAC only and then stacked with the AMP to a smartphone?  If so, how would one set that up?


----------



## bmoregnr

clerkpalmer said:


> noob question but can a DF Red or Black be used with a portable headphone amplifier as DAC only and then stacked with the AMP to a smartphone?  If so, how would one set that up?


You would just set the music player and phone volume (if both volumes are not combined already) to maximum then the DFs act as fixed line out to the amp.  Other than that the DF setup depends on the phone.


----------



## ninetylol

Anyone able to compare with the new ifi idsd nano BL? 

Will give my own oberservations over the weekend!


----------



## udd3n

ninetylol said:


> Anyone able to compare with the new ifi idsd nano BL?
> 
> Will give my own oberservations over the weekend!



Really intereseted in this comparison!


----------



## ninetylol (Dec 17, 2017)

udd3n said:


> Really intereseted in this comparison!


i need to do some real A/B comparison later but what i can say is that its a significant step up from the DFR. The sound profile of the ifi nano BL is really pleasant. It good some really really good bass (from what Ive read even better than the ifi micro BL!) and very smooth highs.
It really pushes my Fidelio X2 to another level, sounds like I remember the DT 1990 with the A20 amp. Really good! There are some nice reviews on the nano BL on amazon.com too (not mine).


----------



## DivaFonda

I suspected as much. There are just many more powerful options for around $200. I know people swear by the DFR but I'm stopping at the DFB so far.


----------



## doboo57 (Dec 18, 2017)

Hi,

Does anyone have tried to compare DFR with JDS Labs O2+ODAC or Schiit stack in terms of sound signature? I'm looking for the best sounding AMP+DAC combo to drive my HD600 from my laptop...


----------



## Cheffy

doboo57 said:


> Hi,
> 
> Does anyone have tried to compare DFR with JDS Labs O2+ODAC or Schiit stack in terms of sound signature? I'm looking for the best sounding AMP+DAC combo to drive my HD600 from my laptop...



I can compare the DFB and JDS  O2+OL-DAC combo. The DFB was my first introduction to a DAC/AMP beyond my desktop/laptop/phone. It opened my ears to better sound. So much so, I invested in a JDS O2 amp and OL-DAC combo. The former is fantastic. The latter is incredible. 

If you want your HD600 to sound like Sennheisser intended, get the O2/ODAC. If you want it to sound like something else, consider other options.


----------



## doboo57

Cheffy said:


> I can compare the DFB and JDS  O2+OL-DAC combo. The DFB was my first introduction to a DAC/AMP beyond my desktop/laptop/phone. It opened my ears to better sound. So much so, I invested in a JDS O2 amp and OL-DAC combo. The former is fantastic. The latter is incredible.
> 
> If you want your HD600 to sound like Sennheisser intended, get the O2/ODAC. If you want it to sound like something else, consider other options.


You have all the right words... I will look for the O2/ODAC, thanks


----------



## Rendster

Is there a big difference with the black and the red one? I wonder if it would work on Xiaomi mi6 or any android phone. I really would love an android phone as my DAP, but couldn't find a smartphone with decent DAC that fits my taste, or if there is it would be out of my budget like the LG v30. LG v20 has issues of battery draining fast, screen retention, and bootlooping so i'm afraid i may face problems with that phone. So i am looking for a portable DAP or DAC that would give me an excellent audio quality


----------



## ninetylol

I didnt hear the black but from what Ive read from people who heard both, all of them said the Red is a big improvement in terms of sound quality. I own the Red and if you factor in the form factor its pretty much unbeatable imho.


----------



## Cheffy

Big improvement is subjective. Most report the difference as being pretty small and that's not surprising - there are vastly diminishing returns with price beyond a certain threshold for most things audio related. Users have suggested that the DFR is twice the cost for 20% better sound if that helps.


----------



## Hifiearspeakers

Rendster said:


> Is there a big difference with the black and the red one? I wonder if it would work on Xiaomi mi6 or any android phone. I really would love an android phone as my DAP, but couldn't find a smartphone with decent DAC that fits my taste, or if there is it would be out of my budget like the LG v30. LG v20 has issues of battery draining fast, screen retention, and bootlooping so i'm afraid i may face problems with that phone. So i am looking for a portable DAP or DAC that would give me an excellent audio quality



The difference depends on the impedance and sensitivity of the headphones you’re driving. For higher impedance and/or lower sensitivity headphones, like Sennheiser 600/650/800/800S for example, the Red will be substantially better. But for much easier to drive headphones like Sennheiser 5xx series, the differences will be marginal. Hope that helps. For most planars, since they almost always require more power than similar impedance dynamics, even if they have low impedance, the Red is usually going to sound much better.


----------



## Nevi (Dec 25, 2017)

Rendster said:


> Is there a big difference with the black and the red one? I wonder if it would work on Xiaomi mi6 or any android phone. I really would love an android phone as my DAP, but couldn't find a smartphone with decent DAC that fits my taste, or if there is it would be out of my budget like the LG v30. LG v20 has issues of battery draining fast, screen retention, and bootlooping so i'm afraid i may face problems with that phone. So i am looking for a portable DAP or DAC that would give me an excellent audio quality



I do think the red has a better quality, but not so much it justifies the big price difference. But thats just me . I used the black on my old Sony Z5 C, so I think it would work with most of the Sony androids.I have later bought an Iphone 8 with Audeze SINE, and IMO it beat the sound from the dragonfly by far. Its my intention to try and listen to the LG V 30, to hear whether its so good as some say it is.


----------



## Rendster

I wonder how is the sound quality of the red one when compared to smartphones like LG v20 and LG v30. Also how would it compare to dedicated DAP like Cayin n3 and Fiio x5


----------



## big45-70

I just picked up the DFB black and have a few questions.  I set my windows 10 sound properties to 24-98,  will this cause any problems using foobar to play 24bit-192 files?  Does it simply down sound sample to 24-98?  How does it work with streaming Spotify over a PC?  And lastly,  has anyone paired it with the pinnacle P1,  or Meze Classic?


----------



## recon56

big45-70 said:


> I just picked up the DFB black and have a few questions.  I set my windows 10 sound properties to 24-98,  will this cause any problems using foobar to play 24bit-192 files?  Does it simply down sound sample to 24-98?  How does it work with streaming Spotify over a PC?  And lastly,  has anyone paired it with the pinnacle P1,  or Meze Classic?


I have paired it with with  P1, the DFB can deliver more than enough power.  192kHz should cleanly down sample to the 96Khz you have in your windows 10 setup. If you are going to stream Spotify I believe that the sample rate varies between the 44.1kHz and 48kHz depending on the track. But in my experience most tracks will have 44.1kHz sample rate.


----------



## big45-70

Anyone tried a dragonfly black with the he400i?  I have a dac and amp setup for these,  but it would be a bonus if the back would drive them as well.


----------



## big45-70

big45-70 said:


> Anyone tried a dragonfly black with the he400i?  I have a dac and amp setup for these,  but it would be a bonus if the back would drive them as well.




I can now reply to my own thread.  I've been using the DFB exclusively for the past two days.  Running it along side with Hifiman HE400i's,  Meze 99C's,  Pinnancle PX's,  VE Monks and Fiio F9's.

I am very happy,  the install was as simple as plugging it in on a windows 10 device.  The power is sufficient for my use case for traveling and drives my 400i's to sufficient volume levels without any sacrifices that I can tell.  For gaming it worked great,  I have experienced a slight delay in sound with my other USB DAC,  the sound would be about half a second behind any action while gaming.  Not a problem at all for the DFB.  

Sound impressions are very good with everything I've run through it,  I haven't noticed any coloring of the sound outside of what my headphones and IEM's provide.  Just an improvement with clarity over my laptops audio out.  The added power gives my 400i a nice kick in the low end.

All and all,  it works great for what it is.  A small USB DAC/AMP that is great for hifi audio on the go.  I haven't had any experience is MQA,  so I have no comment on that feature.


----------



## C_Lindbergh (Dec 30, 2017)

I'm guessing these would power a 250 ohm headphone with ease? More preciecly the Beyerdynamic Home Amiron 

Also any tips on an angled USB C adapter for this thing? Preferably from a warehouse/store located in Europe.


----------



## WoodyLuvr

Cheffy said:


> Big improvement is subjective. Most report the difference as being pretty small and that's not surprising - there are vastly diminishing returns with price beyond a certain threshold for most things audio related. Users have suggested that the DFR is twice the cost for 20% better sound if that helps.


That plus what headphones you'll be using which could drive that 20% higher but also likely to bring that 20% down to nearly 0% and in some cases even lower!


----------



## X-Frame

Hey everyone,

Apologies if this has been already discussed recently but can anyone confirm that the Apple USB2 CCK works with the Dragonfly Red and headphones?

I originally bought the larger USB3 CCK years ago because at the time the thinner USB2 CCK seemed to produce buzzing. Has anything changed since then with the new iOS? Does the USB2 CCK work well with the current iOS 11.2 version?

Thank you!


----------



## Hariz Nordin

Hariz Nordin said:


> Mine is without wireless charging.. Btw, it's Motorola moto g5.. I'd like to charge it while on the go


I still have not found the solution to this.. Anyone???


----------



## shoe73

X-Frame said:


> Hey everyone,
> Apologies if this has been already discussed recently but can anyone confirm that the Apple USB2 CCK works with the Dragonfly Red and headphones?
> I originally bought the larger USB3 CCK years ago because at the time the thinner USB2 CCK seemed to produce buzzing. Has anything changed since then with the new iOS? Does the USB2 CCK work well with the current iOS 11.2 version?
> Thank you!



I bought a Chinese OTG cable off eBay for $10 and I can confirm it works fine with iOS 11 and the dragonfly red/black without buzzing or clicking. It may be the luck of the draw with these. Make sure it specifies iOS 11 if you buy one, a bunch of them are < 10.3 only.

Edit: I should mention I am using iPhone 5s.


----------



## SchwarzeWolke

So finally I also got my hands on a Black and I'm using it the second day on my Lenovo X1. I have to say that the main reason for the purchase was the really bad headphone jack/damaged whatever soundcard or so. When I was going up with the volume, I got a lot of distortion through the headphone jack. I was searching for an easy solution, as best as possible just plug and play. Well, the Black does everything and with my Sony, MDR-1A (around 50 Ohm) everything is loud as hell now. 
I'm currently one above total mute and it's nearly too loud.
I've tried several songs in different quality with Foobar and what my ears could distinguish was clearer sound, more body to it and it did not sound that "harsh" like it did through the headphone jack. I was switching a lot between the source and I'm really careful with my impressions. I don't know if they're biased and if I would be able to distinguish between the original source and the Black blindfolded. Right now I'm really happy, especially the handling and all the stuff is superb. I was thinking about other DAC/headphone amps but nothing is nearly as convienient as the Black.


----------



## SchwarzeWolke

big45-70 said:


> [...]For gaming it worked great,  I have experienced a slight delay in sound with my other USB DAC,  the sound would be about half a second behind any action while gaming.  Not a problem at all for the DFB.[...]


Same for me, tested some games and didn't have any lags or whatsoever!


----------



## ninetylol

ninetylol said:


> i need to do some real A/B comparison later but what i can say is that its a significant step up from the DFR. The sound profile of the ifi nano BL is really pleasant. It good some really really good bass (from what Ive read even better than the ifi micro BL!) and very smooth highs.
> It really pushes my Fidelio X2 to another level, sounds like I remember the DT 1990 with the A20 amp. Really good! There are some nice reviews on the nano BL on amazon.com too (not mine).


i gotta revise my comment. After some more testing and real A/B comparison i actually still like the DFR better. Only got the Fidelio X2 to play with atm but with the DFR the music feels more alive and more rhytmic. The ifi nano BL on the other hand really got a little bass boost (which is nice) while the DFR feels a bit more treble boosted (but not in the bad way ) All in all two really great devices but i give my thumbs up to the DFR, especially considering the form factor.


----------



## shoe73 (Jan 6, 2018)

I bought them both and for me the difference between Red and Black is huge. The Red allows you to hear every small detail in the music. They have a “cold” sound to them, I would say. Everything sounds very bright and clear but at the same time smooth.

Analytically I was extremely impressed by the DFR, but here’s the weird thing: I didn’t enjoy the music through them. While providing all the detail, they somehow sucked the soul out of the recordings. I can’t really explain it, but when I bought the DFB, I sold the DFR.

The Black is much more enjoyable to me, a warmer sound than with the Red. Maybe not as much separation between the individual sounds as the Red, but so much more detail than listening directly from my laptop.

YMMV but that was my experience. BTW, I used them both with my MDR-1A, Momentum 2.0, and Panasonic HD10 headphones, listening to classic rock, modern pop, and the like.


----------



## Devodonaldson

shoe73 said:


> I bought them both and for me the difference between Red and Black is huge. The Red allows you to hear every small detail in the music. They have a “cold” sound to them, I would say. Everything sounds very bright and clear but at the same time smooth.
> 
> Analytically I was extremely impressed by the DFR, but here’s the weird thing: I didn’t enjoy the music through them. While providing all the detail, they somehow sucked the soul out of the recordings. I can’t really explain it, but when I bought the DFB, I sold the DFR.
> 
> ...


I completely understand your thoughts on the red. The detail is amazing, but it's not a super wide soundstage or a very musical presentation. Compared to a mojo, the mojo is much more enjoyable/musical. I had my DFR for over a year before I started thinking of other options. Connected it to a JDS Labs C5 portable amp. A little less detail, wider soundstage, warmer/much more musical presentation. Very close to being on par with mojo now, so am very happy with this combination


----------



## shoe73

Devodonaldson said:


> I completely understand your thoughts on the red. The detail is amazing, but it's not a super wide soundstage or a very musical presentation. Compared to a mojo, the mojo is much more enjoyable/musical. I had my DFR for over a year before I started thinking of other options. Connected it to a JDS Labs C5 portable amp. A little less detail, wider soundstage, warmer/much more musical presentation. Very close to being on par with mojo now, so am very happy with this combination


The great thing about the dragonfly is how small it is. Not wanting to invest in a whole setup, I’m happy with the DFB. I can put it in my headphone pouch and use it at work or wherever, nothing to plug in, no batteries to worry about. So far I’m satisfied. But knowing myself, I’ll probably be upgrading again at some point.


----------



## KaiFi

I have the DFR and I love it. But I do sometimes wonder how it compares to other similarly priced DACs, like the Schiit stack (Modi 2/Magni) combo. I mainly use the DFR with my MBP, but I seem to often listen to music at a desk, so I'm wondering if I should get a desktop DAC/amp combo. 

Either way, for now the DFR is excellent and sounds better than the Fiio E17 I was using before.


----------



## Ultrainferno

DragonFly Update and MQA/Tidal video is now online. We're also giving away a couple of DR Red and B 
https://www.headfonia.com/audioquest-dragonfly-mqa/


----------



## RobinTim

I recently bought the Dragonfly Red but it has problems when I connect it via the camera cable to my Iphone 6s. It constantly has a crackling, every few seconds. Could that be interference from the phone? Weirdly there are no problems if I connect my Mojo or Hugo 2 over the same cable to the same phone. And the Dragonfly works without problems when connected to the Laptop. Did I receive a broken unit? Thanks


----------



## PeteMtl (Jan 10, 2018)

RobinTim said:


> I recently bought the Dragonfly Red but it has problems when I connect it via the camera cable to my Iphone 6s. It constantly has a crackling, every few seconds. Could that be interference from the phone? Weirdly there are no problems if I connect my Mojo or Hugo 2 over the same cable to the same phone. And the Dragonfly works without problems when connected to the Laptop. Did I receive a broken unit? Thanks



It is a well known and documented problem with the DFR and Apple Camera CCK adapter. You must use the CCK USB 3.0 lightning adapter, the one with both the usb and the lightning connector on one end and a lightning connector on the other end. This newer CCK connector doesn’t have the clicking issue you are reporting. Even Audioquest reports problem on their web site with the usb2 CCK connector using the DFR and recommends the CCK 3.0 instead. Besides, you may use the connector for the DFR and charge your iOS phone or ipad at the same time using this newer CCK.


----------



## RobinTim

PeteMtl said:


> It is a well known and documented problem with the DFR and Apple Camera CCK adapter. You must use the CCK USB 3.0 lightning adapter, the one with both the usb and the lightning connector on one end and a lightning connector on the other end. This newer CCK connector doesn’t have the clicking issue you are reporting. Even Audioquest reports problem on their web site with the usb2 CCK connector using the DFR and recommends the CCK 3.0 instead. Besides, tou may use the connector fir the DFR and charge your iOS phone or ipad at the same time using this newer CCK.



Thanks so much for the answer. I did not know about this. I assume there is no "smaller" solution available? It adds bulk that I tried to reduce with the dragonfly in the first place...


----------



## PeteMtl

RobinTim said:


> Thanks so much for the answer. I did not know about this. I assume there is no "smaller" solution available? It adds bulk that I tried to reduce with the dragonfly in the first place...



I do not know any other alternative connector, you may check on ebay. I use the bulkier CCK 3.0 and it doesn’t cause me any problems, you get used to it and the concomitant charging advantage is nice to have.


----------



## shoe73 (Jan 10, 2018)

RobinTim said:


> Thanks so much for the answer. I did not know about this. I assume there is no "smaller" solution available? It adds bulk that I tried to reduce with the dragonfly in the first place...


I bought a small adapter off ebay for $10 and it works fine with no crackling sounds. If you want the smaller one you may have to try a few till you find one that works? Or maybe it is related to your iOS device. Here is what audioqest has in their FAQ:
*When connected to an iOS device using the recommended Camera Connection Kit, my DragonFly Red or Black exhibits clicks and pops in the background of the music. What should I do?
In some rare instances, the combination of an iOS device in conjunction with the standard CCK and DragonFly Black or Red causes a clicking in the background of the music.
Neither we nor Apple have been able to determine why that is, but in circumstances where this occurs we’ve found that using Apple’s Lightning to USB 3.0 Camera Connection Kit resolves the problem. In addition, this connector offers improved audio performance over the smaller unit and gives the end user the ability to charge their iOS device while listening to music.*


----------



## RobinTim

shoe73 said:


> I bought a small adapter off ebay for $10 and it works fine with no crackling sounds. If you want the smaller one you may have to try a few till you find one that works? Or maybe it is related to your iOS device. Here is what audioqest has in their FAQ:
> *When connected to an iOS device using the recommended Camera Connection Kit, my DragonFly Red or Black exhibits clicks and pops in the background of the music. What should I do?
> In some rare instances, the combination of an iOS device in conjunction with the standard CCK and DragonFly Black or Red causes a clicking in the background of the music.
> Neither we nor Apple have been able to determine why that is, but in circumstances where this occurs we’ve found that using Apple’s Lightning to USB 3.0 Camera Connection Kit resolves the problem. In addition, this connector offers improved audio performance over the smaller unit and gives the end user the ability to charge their iOS device while listening to music.*



This sounds a bit as if not all Iphone+Dragonfly Reds were affected by this. Would it make sense to exchange the dragonfly or send it back to audioquest for investigation?


----------



## Jearly410

RobinTim said:


> This sounds a bit as if not all Iphone+Dragonfly Reds were affected by this. Would it make sense to exchange the dragonfly or send it back to audioquest for investigation?


I can’t recall where I read this but the iPhone 6,6+,6s, and 6s+ were the affected phones. I could be missing some others but those are the ones I remember. Personally I have the same problem using the older cck with the 6s+ and with the new cck there are no issues.


----------



## Devodonaldson

RobinTim said:


> This sounds a bit as if not all Iphone+Dragonfly Reds were affected by this. Would it make sense to exchange the dragonfly or send it back to audioquest for investigation?


It has nothing to do with the Dragonfly. It's an issue with updated iOS and particular USB2 cck adapters.


----------



## georgelai57

I have a USB3 adapter and two USB2 adapters with an iPhone 8+, 6 and 5S and have none of those cracking or interruption issues. I used to have occasional ones with the USB2 ones but that was many months ago.


----------



## Brahmsian

Any opinions about the Jitterbug? It sounds like a gimmick to me but of course there are always people who think they hear an improvement.


----------



## Devodonaldson

Brahmsian said:


> Any opinions about the Jitterbug? It sounds like a gimmick to me but of course there are always people who think they hear an improvement.


Been using DFR since 2016. Been using jitterbug since early 2017. It's connected to smartphone used as a dap. Makes a noticeable difference in SQ. I did a blind test with people who don't know much about audio, as well as auditioned it for people who had never used one while at Canjam. All noticed a difference with it. Sound is cleaner, better soundstage. Some DAC'S already have good jitter reducers built in so not going to affect all devices the same, but on an Android phone, makes a noticeable welcome difference.


----------



## ninetylol

Brahmsian said:


> Any opinions about the Jitterbug? It sounds like a gimmick to me but of course there are always people who think they hear an improvement.


Wanted to ask the same thing. Wanted to test the Audioquest Jitterbug but stumbled upon the ifi iSilencer 3.0 which some say is better.

Just asking myself if the synergy with the Jitterbug would be better since im just using Audioquest products (Dragonfly Red + Nightowls)


----------



## Thor71 (Jan 11, 2018)

Devodonaldson said:


> It has nothing to do with the Dragonfly. It's an issue with updated iOS and particular USB2 cck adapters.


DFB with Iphone 6s and CCK2, I used to have clicks and pops, then they disappeared with the use of the CCK3.
Now I'm using DFB with CCK2 (because it's smaller/more portable than CCK3) connected to an Iphone X.....no clicks/pops at all.
Not sure but I think the issue is more related to IOS release version (I'm on 11.2.2).


----------



## ninetylol

I love my Dragonfly Red and i know its DAC is far superior for its price. Since my Nightowl cables are too short anyway und replacing those would cost a lot of money too i was wondering if i just get a Fiio A5 and place this on my desk.

So my question would be is the Fiio A5 amp section superior (in terms of quality not raw power!) to the DFR's amp section or would it just be a sidegrade?


----------



## Devodonaldson

ninetylol said:


> I love my Dragonfly Red and i know its DAC is far superior for its price. Since my Nightowl cables are too short anyway und replacing those would cost a lot of money too i was wondering if i just get a Fiio A5 and place this on my desk.
> 
> So my question would be is the Fiio A5 amp section superior (in terms of quality not raw power!) to the DFR's amp section or would it just be a sidegrade?


Adding the Fiio amp will slightly change the sound signature. The DFR is highly detailed. Adding the Fiio will lose some of that detail, but could possibly widen the soundstage a bit, and produce a wider/more musical signature. Fiio amps are warmer sounding than the DFR.


----------



## ninetylol

Devodonaldson said:


> Adding the Fiio amp will slightly change the sound signature. The DFR is highly detailed. Adding the Fiio will lose some of that detail, but could possibly widen the soundstage a bit, and produce a wider/more musical signature. Fiio amps are warmer sounding than the DFR.


Thanks, i ordered the Fiio A5 an hour ago after reading how Lieven from Headfonia praised the Nightowl + Fiio A5 combination high. Seems those two really complement each other.


> "The Audioquest NightOwl is my headphone of the year so far and it sounds divine with the A5."



Gotta agree on the Nightowl part btw those headphones are just magic!


----------



## Devodonaldson

ninetylol said:


> Thanks, i ordered the Fiio A5 an hour ago after reading how Lieven from Headfonia praised the Nightowl + Fiio A5 combination high. Seems those two really complement each other.
> 
> 
> Gotta agree on the Nightowl part btw those headphones are just magic!


I own the Nightowl, but I HATE the boost pads that came with it. Don't like the extended treble. Doesn't sound natural to me. I purchased the original Nightowl "hybrid" pads, and I truly love these headphones. The hybrid pads present a warmer and deeper/wider soundstage. A much more musical presentation that I just truly love. If you like the ultrasuede pads at all, then the hybrid pads are amazing. I'm not a fan of extended treble. I thought the original nighthawk was pretty much perfect for me, but I did want a closed back can


----------



## Brahmsian

My DFR is given to making some loud, distorting, buzzing noises now and then, usually when it's warming up. A) does anybody else have this problem? B) Would adding a Jitterbug help with it?


----------



## Marc Roberts

Brahmsian said:


> My DFR is given to making some loud, distorting, buzzing noises now and then, usually when it's warming up. A) does anybody else have this problem? B) Would adding a Jitterbug help with it?



Yes, in particular when I use it with my Android device. It only seems to last a second or so, and it doesn't seem to cause lasting issues...

I don't have a Jitterbug to try


----------



## DancingBlue

Jearly410 said:


> I can’t recall where I read this but the iPhone 6,6+,6s, and 6s+ were the affected phones. I could be missing some others but those are the ones I remember. Personally I have the same problem using the older cck with the 6s+ and with the new cck there are no issues.



I think you're right, because I had the same problem with a 6s+ and CCK2. I'm now using an iPhone X, and the CCK2 works fine with a DFR, no crackling or issues at all, full 96k resolution (magenta butterfly). It's nice to be able to use the smaller connector again.


----------



## 435279

DancingBlue said:


> I think you're right, because I had the same problem with a 6s+ and CCK2. I'm now using an iPhone X, and the CCK2 works fine with a DFR, no crackling or issues at all, full 96k resolution (magenta butterfly). It's nice to be able to use the smaller connector again.



That's good to hear, forgive me for not rushing out and buying an iPhone X though.


----------



## brad713

For what it's worth, I have an iPhoneX and get horrible dropouts with the DFR.  Seems like everyone has a different experience.  I tried every adapter ever made with the same result. The dropouts only occur when I'm using the phone while listening to music.  If it's in lock mode, no issues.


----------



## DancingBlue

SteveOliver said:


> That's good to hear, forgive me for not rushing out and buying an iPhone X though.



Heresy! What kind of an audiophoolphile are you! Spend that money! 



brad713 said:


> For what it's worth, I have an iPhoneX and get horrible dropouts with the DFR.  Seems like everyone has a different experience.  I tried every adapter ever made with the same result. The dropouts only occur when I'm using the phone while listening to music.  If it's in lock mode, no issues.



Oh weird. I don't use iTunes (or music or whatever the hell the built in music player is now called), but a bunch of streaming services and alternative players. wifi/cell/lock status/etc. all fine, no dropouts/crackling. Phone was not set up clean, but restored from a backup. I hope you figure it out


----------



## ninetylol

Devodonaldson said:


> Adding the Fiio amp will slightly change the sound signature. The DFR is highly detailed. Adding the Fiio will lose some of that detail, but could possibly widen the soundstage a bit, and produce a wider/more musical signature. Fiio amps are warmer sounding than the DFR.


After some testing i gotta agree. The Fiio is awesome for its price but its more like a sidegrade to the DFR. The thing that changes is a slight change in the sound signature. I actually prefer the clarity of the DFR, and it got plenty enough of power for the Nightowls. 

Just dont like the instability the DFR got in my desktop pc with a cable attached. How do you guys fix that?


----------



## larcenasb (Jan 21, 2018)

Just wanted to contribute my first impressions about the $10 USB noise filter from ebay. Seeing a comparison video on youtube by "Tharbamar," he said it was very comparable to the AudioQuest JitterBug...and at 1/5 the price...my thoughts were: "Why not?" Also, I like being frugal; even though I have an AudioQuest DragonFly 1.0, I still bought a third-party USB extender cable--the DragonTail makes no sense to me @ $16 when one can be had for $4. Much the same feelings come about in terms of a USB noise filter: $50 vs $10... On its own though, I still love and appreciate my DragonFly, I just don't need to buy all the matching trinkets for it.

The Altoids Smalls tin was nice to work with as I managed to measure and easily cut out the slots I needed (I then used a file to blunt any sharp edges). On one side of the Altoids tin, the USB extender cable is resting on its cut out, and on the other side, to make it level, I hot-glued a rubber piece (from an old set of isolation feet, I think), and then I hot glued both sides to the tin case itself to hold it all in place.

Aurally, the difference is easily noticeable. Upon testing, though unscientifically, I noticed a wider sense of space around my head and instruments more separated from each other. The most noticeable differences though would be a very smoothed out treble that still reaches great heights and bass that's much more hard-hitting and solid. If I let uncritical listeners try, I'd bet those are the two things that they'd point out if I asked them to try and tell a difference. Furthermore, breaths between lyrics, and subtle inflections in voices are more obvious. When I switch back to the DragonFly alone, singers don't nearly have the same effect of seemingly being right before me. Now, I'm definitely in the future going to do a double-blind test just to do it, but at $10 I'm not at all worried about buyer's remorse or placebo insiting to my brain that the USB filter sounds better. Calmly and rationally, I can honestly notice it does, at least it caters more toward the type of sound I like. This was just a first impression, and I'll be back once I do that double-blind test in the future. Cheers!


----------



## gregpod9

I have an Apple iPad Pro 9.7 inch, iPhone 7 Plus, the Sennheiser HD 598 SR headphones, and a Apple MacBook Pro. Also I use Apple Music. I currently have the DF 1.2 and I'm thinking of replacing it with the DFB or DFR. Out of the DFB and DFR, which one is recommended for my setup?


----------



## PeteMtl (Jan 22, 2018)

gregpod9 said:


> I have an Apple iPad Pro 9.7 inch, iPhone 7 Plus, the Sennheiser HD 598 SR headphones, and a Apple MacBook Pro. Also I use Apple Music. I currently have the DF 1.2 and I'm thinking of replacing it with the DFB or DFR. Out of the DFB and DFR, which one is recommended for my setup?



The DFB should suit your HD598 needs, and will provide the capability to use them with your iPhone and iPad Pro. However the DFR is superior, provides bitperfect digital volume, and is more powerful, providing more than 2 volts of output (The DFB has a 1.2v output, not a lot more than the output of your iPad Pro’s analog output jack). This doesn’t matter too much with low impedance headphones such as the HD598, but the DFR gives you the possibility to drive higher impedance headphones like the HD600, HD650 or HD660s or lower sensitivity headphones in the future. However the DFB is half the price if the DFR. That’s basically what you need to know to take your decision.

I have the DFR, it works wonders with all of my headphones, HD598, HD600 and HD6xx. I do not regret picking the Red instead of the Black for the output extra voltage and sound quality with my iPhone 6S and my iPad Pro 9.7. I even use the DFR as a DAC only in DAC mode with my home gear (headphone amp, stereo receivers, etc.). The DFR has a that enclosed DAC Sabre 9016 that is so excellent, better than any other DAC I own in my other components in the house. It’s that good.


----------



## Devodonaldson

PeteMtl said:


> The DFB should suit your HD598 needs, and will provide the capability to use them with your iPhone and iPad Pro. However the DFR is superior, provides bitperfect digital volume, and is more powerful, providing more than 2 volts of output (The DFB has a 1.2v output, not a lot more than the output of your iPad Pro’s analog output jack). This doesn’t matter too much with low impedance headphones such as the HD598, but the DFR gives you the possibility to drive higher impedance headphones like the HD600, HD650 or HD660s or lower sensitivity headphones in the future. However the DFB is half the price if the DFR. That’s basically what you need to know to take your decision.
> 
> I have the DFR, it works wonders with all of my headphones, HD598, HD600 and HD6xx. I do not regret picking the Red instead of the Black for the output extra voltage and sound quality with my iPhone 6S and my iPad Pro 9.7. I even use the DFR as a DAC only in DAC mode with my home gear (headphone amp, stereo receivers, etc.). The DFR has a that enclosed DAC Sabre 9016 that is so excellent, better than any other DAC I own in my other components in the house. It’s that good.


I'm with you on that last bit. All of my devices are portable, but I use my DFR to input into various portable amps for slightly different sound signatures, depending on headphones used. The DFR is very clean, and detailed. Adding other amps warms up the presentation, recesses the mids ever so slightly and produces a more musical presentation for the most part. Love the versatility of the DFR


----------



## gregpod9

PeteMtl said:


> The DFB should suit your HD598 needs, and will provide the capability to use them with your iPhone and iPad Pro. However the DFR is superior, provides bitperfect digital volume, and is more powerful, providing more than 2 volts of output (The DFB has a 1.2v output, not a lot more than the output of your iPad Pro’s analog output jack). This doesn’t matter too much with low impedance headphones such as the HD598, but the DFR gives you the possibility to drive higher impedance headphones like the HD600, HD650 or HD660s or lower sensitivity headphones in the future. However the DFB is half the price if the DFR. That’s basically what you need to know to take your decision.
> 
> I have the DFR, it works wonders with all of my headphones, HD598, HD600 and HD6xx. I do not regret picking the Red instead of the Black for the output extra voltage and sound quality with my iPhone 6S and my iPad Pro 9.7. I even use the DFR as a DAC only in DAC mode with my home gear (headphone amp, stereo receivers, etc.). The DFR has a that enclosed DAC Sabre 9016 that is so excellent, better than any other DAC I own in my other components in the house. It’s that good.





Devodonaldson said:


> I'm with you on that last bit. All of my devices are portable, but I use my DFR to input into various portable amps for slightly different sound signatures, depending on headphones used. The DFR is very clean, and detailed. Adding other amps warms up the presentation, recesses the mids ever so slightly and produces a more musical presentation for the most part. Love the versatility of the DFR



Thanks for your help. I ordered the DFR yesterday. I've been reading on the Audioquest Jitterbug. Do you think its necessary to have for the DFR, The Sennheiser HD 598 SR, the iPad Pro 9.7 inch, iPhone 7 Plus, and a MacBook Pro?


----------



## PeteMtl (Jan 23, 2018)

gregpod9 said:


> Thanks for your help. I ordered the DFR yesterday. I've been reading on the Audioquest Jitterbug. Do you think its necessary to have for the DFR, The Sennheiser HD 598 SR, the iPad Pro 9.7 inch, iPhone 7 Plus, and a MacBook Pro?



I have the Jitterbug, and i only use it on the USB out of the Macbook Pro with the DFR, and never use it with my portable Apple units. Not sure it changes a lot, the Macbooks are well insulated, but I doesn’t cost that much to try for yourself.


----------



## Devodonaldson

gregpod9 said:


> Thanks for your help. I ordered the DFR yesterday. I've been reading on the Audioquest Jitterbug. Do you think its necessary to have for the DFR, The Sennheiser HD 598 SR, the iPad Pro 9.7 inch, iPhone 7 Plus, and a MacBook Pro?


I have a jitterbug connected to my Android phone and DFR. I was sceptical, but wanted to try it. There was a noticeable difference in SQ change. With jitterbug, tighter, smoother, more lively. Have done a blind listening test with others at Canjam. Surprising and happy addition. Worth the $50 IMO


----------



## VRacer-111 (Jan 24, 2018)

PeteMtl said:


> I even use the DFR as a DAC only in DAC mode with my home gear (headphone amp, stereo receivers, etc.). The DFR has a that enclosed DAC Sabre 9016 that is so excellent, better than any other DAC I own in my other components in the house. It’s that good.



This very much. As good as it is for portable DAC/amp use on its own, the DFR really impresses when used as DAC in line-out mode and connected to better amps. For music, my HT has never sounded as good through the Oppo Blu-ray player or my Yamaha DVD-S1800 SACD player as it does through the DFR. Laptop -> DFR -> NAD T747 Receiver (used as pre-amp to pass the analog audio directly to amp unchanged) -> NAD C275BEE stereo amp -> Polk RTi-A5 really sounds NICE! More dynamics, bass, and details. Only thing better sounding I have is the Gustard X20U DAC... which is a whole different level of DAC.


----------



## arda89

I have an Samsung Galaxy S6, Lenovo Z570 and Bang and Olufsen H6 second generation headphones. I use Spotify and Tidal. I currently have the Fiio K1 and I'm thinking of replacing it with the DFB or DFR. Out of the DFB and DFR, which one is recommended for my setup? What are the differences between Fiio K1 and dragonflys? Is it worth buying dragonfly?


----------



## Trippin

Been looking for a decent dac/amp for my Dita-Answers which are easy to drive but I need a clean source as its very susceptible to noise. Will the DFB 1.5 do the trick? Anyone usimg it with a sensitive IEM like the Katanas or Andromedas?


----------



## jiggyv (Jan 25, 2018)

Trippin said:


> Been looking for a decent dac/amp for my Dita-Answers which are easy to drive but I need a clean source as its very susceptible to noise. Will the DFB 1.5 do the trick? Anyone usimg it with a sensitive IEM like the Katanas or Andromedas?


Had the DFB before, now have the DFR. They have very low noise floors even for sensitive IEMs, IMO.

When I use sensitive IEMs with the DFR though, I use an iFi IEMatch so I can raise the volume to a comfy listening level before distortion kicks in.


----------



## Bepli

jiggyv said:


> Had the DFB before, now have the DFR. They have very low noise floors even for sensitive IEMs, IMO.
> 
> When I use sensitive IEMs with the DFR though, I use an iFi IEMatch so I can raise the volume to a comfy listening level before distortion kicks in.


Can't comment on the red, but I tested multiple and the black definitely has a lot of noise. Barely usable with some IEMs


----------



## Devodonaldson

arda89 said:


> I have an Samsung Galaxy S6, Lenovo Z570 and Bang and Olufsen H6 second generation headphones. I use Spotify and Tidal. I currently have the Fiio K1 and I'm thinking of replacing it with the DFB or DFR. Out of the DFB and DFR, which one is recommended for my setup? What are the differences between Fiio K1 and dragonflys? Is it worth buying dragonfly?


Have the k1, have the dragonfly red. More power, better audio reproduction, greater instrument separation, more detail, tighter bass...


----------



## Ultrainferno

Our AudioQuest DragonFly giveaway is ending this weekend. Don't forget to sign up, last chance 

https://www.headfonia.com/audioquest-dragonfly-mqa/


----------



## 458302 (Jan 29, 2018)

Just for your interest.
DFR doensn't work good with Campfire Jupiter at all.
Muddy unfocused bass, loss of details. Altered mid performance(lower mids recessed, upper mid boosted),and spike right in the region of low and high driver crossing(sounds like edgy clipping otherworldly ghost scream on some recordings).
Very VERY noticeable hiss. Hisses like my old 535 plugged into e12a, when it charges. Ifi iematch doesn't work at all (unlistenable distortions, feeling that the ground and l/r is swapped).
Some casual comparisons.
Pha-3 SE has the +- same ammount of bass but more focused and detailed. Mids more smooth. Treble is more neat(not recessed). Unfortunately currently i haven't a right balanced cable for Pha-3.
Sony XZP(without additional dac) (i am using usb player pro) has slight bass rolloff(pleasant for my taste), no hiss at all. Mids more present because of bass rolloff. Treble is not recessed, but loses some microdetails which Pha-3 have.

Insta moneyback, thanks to the shop.
p.s. i don't think that DFR is bad product, but it doesn't work good with my gear.


----------



## luckybaer

I purchased a Dragonfly Red and I'm very pleased with the purchase.  My intent  was to use it with my iPhone, but I've found that it works really well in my iPhone -> CCK -> Dragonfly Red -> Car's AUX jack set-up, too.  I've dropped it into a USB port on my PC just to compare it to my Modi 2 Multibit -> Vali 2 set-up, and it is a bit less exciting than the Schiit stack.  It sounds nice and clean, but I'll keep it away from the desktop and in my workbag.  It beats carrying around an amp or DAC/Amp combo for my iPhone or iPod.  Well done, Audioquest!


----------



## rvcjew (Jan 31, 2018)

Went from a DF v1.2 to a RED and now it wont work with UAPP it just makes a skipping sound of the songs.

RED is v1.6FW
Phone is LG V20
Works fine in software mode in OS outside of UAPP.

Also as a side note the metal case of the RED is not perfect so  he device inside rocks anyone else have this?

EDIT got it work right and it is better then the v1.2 black but also much wider sound stage and I prefer slightly narrower on the go. So it's going back for something else at a later date.


----------



## Brahmsian (Feb 3, 2018)

Odd DFR behavior. A few posts back, I mentioned that my DFR was making a buzzing sound that distorted the audio. The good thing is that it would happen so infrequently that it didn't bother me that much. But now it's happening every two minutes like clockwork.

Another difference is that whereas before the buzzing/distortion lasted maybe 15 seconds or more, now it only lasts about 2 or 3 seconds.

But what I find very strange is how regular it is. Two minutes of music listening go by and there it is again right on time. The frequency of this occurrence makes listening to music on my DFR intolerable. Any thoughts?


----------



## VRacer-111

Are you within warranty?  And are you sure it's the DFR and not computer?


----------



## Brahmsian

Pretty sure it's not the computer. I've shuffled things around and the DFR seems to be the only constant. Remind me how long the warranty lasts.


----------



## VRacer-111

One year.


----------



## psikey (Feb 4, 2018)

Normally use my DFR with android via UAPP for bitperfect playback of Tidal. With an iPhone (128GB SE specifically) will offline Spotify & Tidal play back bitperfect ? Sounds awesome to my ears with my SE846 IEM's or HD660S headphones.

Just wondering if the iPhone avoids upscaling etc.


----------



## ninetylol

You should see that from the color the DFR is giving you itself


----------



## Astonish (Feb 5, 2018)

What’s up guys, quick question

Can the dragonfly red v2 power hd 650s? Currently been running most of my stuff mobile from an iPhone x but the 650s don’t sound full at all compared to my desktop set up


----------



## PeteMtl (Feb 5, 2018)

Astonish said:


> What’s up guys, quick question
> 
> Can the dragonfly red v2 power hd 650s? Currently been running most of my stuff mobile from an iPhone x but the 650s don’t sound full at all compared to my desktop set up



First, I don’t know what is the v2 version, from what I know the current Dragonfly Red is called version 1.0. Yes it has about 2v of output voltage if this is what you are refering to. Anyways, just to let you know that I use the Red with my HD6xx and HD600 as my main headphones with my iPad Pro and iPhone 6s nearly every day (using the Lightning to USB Camera connector from Apple) and the setup suits me fine. However I don’t listen to my music at stadium rock concert levels, so you may want more power than what the Red provides me. I also find that the Red’s design, with the Sabre ES9016 DAC/digital amp, pairs particularly well with the HD6xx/650, with the Red’s tighter bass and brighter upper treble. Try it for yourself to see if the power output suits your listening habits. It suits mine perfectly in most situations.


----------



## Astonish

PeteMtl said:


> First, I don’t know what is the v2 version, from what I know the current Dragonfly Red is called version 1.0. Yes it has about 2v of output voltage if this is what you are refering to. Anyways, just to let you know that I use the Red with my HD6xx and HD600 as my main headphones with my iPad Pro and iPhone 6s nearly every day (using the Lightning to USB Camera connector from Apple) and the setup suits me fine. However I don’t listen to my music at stadium rock concert levels, so you may want more power than what the Red provides me. I also find that the Red’s design, with the Sabre ES9016 DAC/digital amp, pairs particularly well with the HD6xx/650, with the Red’s tighter bass and brighter upper treble. Try it for yourself to see if the power output suits your listening habits. It suits mine perfectly in most situations.



Thanks for the detail. Not to worried about the volume, just the fullness. My phone can power the 650s enough to listen to at loud volumes, but they sound bad because they’re obviously not being driven correctly. Might try one of these out


----------



## psikey

ninetylol said:


> You should see that from the color the DFR is giving you itself


It shows both Spotify and Tidal as Green but I thought some Tidal was 48kHz and others 44kHz ??

Should both show as Green.


----------



## Bepli

psikey said:


> It shows both Spotify and Tidal as Green but I thought some Tidal was 48kHz and others 44kHz ??
> 
> Should both show as Green.


On Iphone all will be 44.1kHz but on PC you can stream MQA which can be 48kHz when not unfolded.


----------



## spark plugs.

I have the DFR and I've noticed that it sounds better on my iPad Pro than my iPhone X and MUCH better on my MacBook Pro than my iPhone X. is there something I'm missing or should be paying attention to? I've try apple music, Spotify, and tidal.


----------



## ninetylol

spark plugs. said:


> I have the DFR and I've noticed that it sounds better on my iPad Pro than my iPhone X and MUCH better on my MacBook Pro than my iPhone X. is there something I'm missing or should be paying attention to? I've try apple music, Spotify, and tidal.


Maybe your MacBook got a more stable current stream from the USB jacks. Also electric isolation may play a role. You could try if a Jitterbug would help there.


----------



## cloudkicker

spark plugs. said:


> I have the DFR and I've noticed that it sounds better on my iPad Pro than my iPhone X and MUCH better on my MacBook Pro than my iPhone X. is there something I'm missing or should be paying attention to? I've try apple music, Spotify, and tidal.



Try airplane mode on your X and see how that sounds. It could be the cellular signal is interfering with the X and why the iPad Pro sounds better.


----------



## spark plugs.

cloudkicker said:


> Try airplane mode on your X and see how that sounds. It could be the cellular signal is interfering with the X and why the iPad Pro sounds better.


no change.


----------



## gregpod9

spark plugs. said:


> I have the DFR and I've noticed that it sounds better on my iPad Pro than my iPhone X and MUCH better on my MacBook Pro than my iPhone X. is there something I'm missing or should be paying attention to? I've try apple music, Spotify, and tidal.


Did you tried turning off sound check in the music settings?


----------



## spark plugs.

gregpod9 said:


> Did you tried turning off sound check in the music settings?


I have tried it on and off.


----------



## ninetylol

Ive been looking for some Desktop DACS (without amp section) for some time now and besides some Dacs i really would like to test (JDS Labs El Dac, Schiit Modi Multibit, Chord Cutest) i still dont know how much i would need to spend so see a clear upgrade to the DFR here. Would i need to spend 500€+ to see an actual upgrade or even more? I made some arguments for and against a separate Desktop Dac.

+ Desktop DAC:
form factor to pair with my desktop amp
probably better sound because of bigger form factor
possible broken usb slots in the future from the DFR hanging there (it seems unstable)
no double amping from the DFR (some say it does not at 100% line out level but im a bit sceptic)

- Desktop DAC:
The Dac section of the DFR is already crazy good if you are going to trust peoples opinions
empty purse
possible DFR synergy with my Audioquest Nightowls

What are your thoughts and experiences? How much would i need to spend to see a real upgrade? What Dacs can you guys recommend (<500€)?


----------



## kkl10 (Feb 7, 2018)

Can't really advise...

But if you're looking solely for an upgrade in SQ and you are connecting the DFR directly to the PC USB port, there might be cheaper and simpler ways to upgrade your DFR performance in the meantime. Jitterbug, USB noise filters, isolators, battery power, etc...

The simplicity of stick dacs like the DFR means that these optimization might impact their performance to a larger extent than desktop dacs that you connect to the source through cables. Or so I speculate... This is an area to explore that many people miss. USB, by default, is not a very clean way to extract audio from a computer.

Better get something else if the longevity of the USB ports is a legit concern, though.


----------



## VRacer-111

ninetylol said:


> Ive been looking for some Desktop DACS (without amp section) for some time now and besides some Dacs i really would like to test (JDS Labs El Dac, Schiit Modi Multibit, Chord Cutest) i still dont know how much i would need to spend so see a clear upgrade to the DFR here. Would i need to spend 500€+ to see an actual upgrade or even more? I made some arguments for and against a separate Desktop Dac.
> 
> + Desktop DAC:
> form factor to pair with my desktop amp
> ...



A used Gustard X20U is a very noticeable upgrade to the DFR... phenominal top end level DAC for mid-fi money... better detail, finesse (especially in vocals where intonation changes are much more noticeable), dynamics, and bass presentation/extension. I prefer the DFR over the Schiit Bifrost (4490), even if the Bifrost is technically the better DAC - the Bifrost is too sterile/flat sounding and just not as clear. The Gustard X20U is a noticeable step up from both - entirely different class of DAC, and a used one can be had for not that much more than a Bifrost.


----------



## Purple_Star

I have a Dragonfly Red. Even though it should be a little more effcient than the Black, Ampere also reports a difference of around 50mAh. This is measured between playing music from the headphone out and from the Dragonfly Red. However the Ampere app does not to seem very exact


----------



## Insaniity (Feb 8, 2018)

Hi guys, I received my dragonfly black today and I plugged it in my pc to update to 1.06 but I saw that there was an 1.07 version and I updated it. Did you received the new 1.07 update?

With this update the UAPP trick is not working for me. I don't know if I'm doing something wrong or it is the update but when I close uapp the light change from green to blue. Someone can help me?


----------



## spark plugs.

anyone see the release notes for 1.07?


----------



## Bepli

spark plugs. said:


> anyone see the release notes for 1.07?


I installed it and didnt really noticed anything changed. The only thing I was hoping for was MQA Decoding, but since the chip seems to be not fast enough this probably will never happen.


----------



## Bluray

Bepli said:


> I installed it and didnt really noticed anything changed. The only thing I was hoping for was MQA Decoding, but since the chip seems to be not fast enough this probably will never happen.


----------



## Bluray

I saw the update version 1.07 when I opened the DF Desktop Manager. Searched in google and in Audioquest Facebook, Twitter and Company webpage and there is no information about update 1.07. ???


----------



## alxm

Firmware v1.07 update is for the low volume issue with DF Red on Android devices.


----------



## Insaniity

Insaniity said:


> Hi guys, I received my dragonfly black today and I plugged it in my pc to update to 1.06 but I saw that there was an 1.07 version and I updated it. Did you received the new 1.07 update?
> 
> With this update the UAPP trick is not working for me. I don't know if I'm doing something wrong or it is the update but when I close uapp the light change from green to blue. Someone can help me?


No one?


----------



## ninetylol

Insaniity said:


> No one?


What do you mean with the "UAPP trick". The "trick" was only to set the hardware volume within the app so other apps got the same volume level. After closing UAPP its normal that the sample rate gets back to standard android/apple settings. Blue is 48kHz which strange though.


----------



## alxm

Insaniity said:


> No one?


If your phone natively supports USB Host and you only had the low volume issue.  Before you started using UAPP.  Try not starting UAPP the next time you connect your DragonFly.  Then check to see if the low volume issue has been fixed.


----------



## west0ne

I have a Dragonfly Black. The UAPP volume trick stopped working for me before the firmware upgrade so it may be a change to UAPP that has caused this. I have upgraded the DFB to firmware V1.07 and it still defaults to volume 44 of 64 on Android and there is still no hardware level control in Android unless using UAPP. I have tried on Galaxy S7E, Moto G4, Galaxy S5 and Lenovo YogaBook. 

I'm rooted across devices so this doesn't bother me too much but it may be worth rolling back UAPP to see if that is where the issue lies.


----------



## Marc Roberts

My DFR is much louder on my Pixel 2 XL.


----------



## ninetylol

Imo Audioquest is dumb bringing that update. I wanted to test the volume changes yesterday plugged the Red into my phone and played a song. Like instantly robbed my Nightowls from my head since the DFR surely wanted to blow my eardrums out. Thanks Audioquest! 124db is always a good idea. Besides causing hearing damage im also scared my 700€ Nightowls may be damaged from this. How the **** can you put a 2.1V Device to 100% without any warning. ****ing dumb!


----------



## Bepli

ninetylol said:


> Imo Audioquest is dumb bringing that update. I wanted to test the volume changes yesterday plugged the Red into my phone and played a song. Like instantly robbed my Nightowls from my head since the DFR surely wanted to blow my eardrums out. Thanks Audioquest! 124db is always a good idea. Besides causing hearing damage im also scared my 700€ Nightowls may be damaged from this. How the **** can you put a 2.1V Device to 100% without any warning. ****ing dumb!


I dont know exactly what happened, but 124db for about a second shouldnt harm your hearing. Also the Nightowls are rated for higher power input so nothing there should have happened.


----------



## TERTBUTYL

west0ne said:


> I have a Dragonfly Black. The UAPP volume trick stopped working for me before the firmware upgrade so it may be a change to UAPP that has caused this. I have upgraded the DFB to firmware V1.07 and it still defaults to volume 44 of 64 on Android and there is still no hardware level control in Android unless using UAPP. I have tried on Galaxy S7E, Moto G4, Galaxy S5 and Lenovo YogaBook.
> 
> I'm rooted across devices so this doesn't bother me too much but it may be worth rolling back UAPP to see if that is where the issue lies.



I have the Dragonfly Black too and the UAPP volume trick worked for me as recently as last week. I keep UAPP up to date, however, I have not upgraded the DFB firmware to v1.07. I'm still on v1.06.


----------



## Trippin

Can anyone compare the DFBs sound to the cayin N3. Odd I know but I do want to use either with spotify


----------



## rhadorn

Samsung Galaxy S5: here nothing changed with version 1.7: the default volume is still low but raising it in UAPP still works. Status quo is not problem for me: UAPP opens automatically when I plug the OTG cable into the socket, so it is very easy to set a high volume before leaving the app and turning to Spotify for example.
Maybe the software additions by the various brands plays also a role.


----------



## supadupaninja

Hi guys! 
On my Huawei P10 (Android 7) DFR change to "Magenta" mode  when I leave UAPP for using Spotify. 
Some older post mentioned that Android is upscaling the sound. So Android is upscaling by default after leaving UAPP -> DFR then correctly changes the mode automaticaly to 96 kHz?
Besides not beeing "Bit perfect" Does this have any negative impact on sound quality?


----------



## alxm

supadupaninja said:


> Hi guys!
> On my Huawei P10 (Android 7) DFR change to "Magenta" mode  when I leave UAPP for using Spotify.
> Some older post mentioned that Android is upscaling the sound. So Android is upscaling by default after leaving UAPP -> DFR then correctly changes the mode automaticaly to 96 kHz?
> Besides not beeing "Bit perfect" Does this have any negative impact on sound quality?



It's actually not upscaling the sound.  If your phone can natively support USB Host.  The Android operating system can usually only support the 96kHz sample rate.  If you are listening to local files or streaming that are sampled at that rate.  That's fine.  But the majority of music out there is sampled at 44.1kHz, CD quality.  So what's nice about UAPP and its custom audio driver.  Is that UAPP can provide the 44.1kHz sample rate.  You can still listen to 44.1kHz files with the sample rate at 96kHz and vice versa.  But that should not be considered upscaling.


----------



## SchwarzeWolke

Let's see, wanna try the Black with my Sony NWZ-A15. Trying to get my hands on some WM-Port to USB-Female adapter and then I will give it a spin. Some measurements indicate that the Black does need really low energy from the source and this might work. Will tell you my experience.


----------



## Hariz Nordin

Already updated the to the 1.07 version of the firmware.. The volume issue has been resolved.. Thank you audioquest...


----------



## Brahmsian

Hariz Nordin said:


> Already updated the to the 1.07 version of the firmware.. The volume issue has been resolved.. Thank you audioquest...


When did this update come out? I don't see 1.07 on AudioQuest's website.


----------



## Hariz Nordin

Brahmsian said:


> When did this update come out? I don't see 1.07 on AudioQuest's website.


just plug in ur dragonfly, they'll auto update..maybe audioquest forgot to update it on their website...


----------



## west0ne

Hariz Nordin said:


> Already updated the to the 1.07 version of the firmware.. The volume issue has been resolved.. Thank you audioquest...



It's made no difference at all on my Dragonfly Black. Volume still defaults to 44 of 64 and no way to use the volume controls in Android to change the hardware volume.

Could someone on a rooted device and using ALSA controls check to see what AQ have done with the volume on the Red, is it just that they boosted it slightly to give more room or have they done something more complex?


----------



## alxm

west0ne said:


> It's made no difference at all on my Dragonfly Black. Volume still defaults to 44 of 64 and no way to use the volume controls in Android to change the hardware volume.
> 
> Could someone on a rooted device and using ALSA controls check to see what AQ have done with the volume on the Red, is it just that they boosted it slightly to give more room or have they done something more complex?



DragonFly Black is using an analog volume control system so there shouldn't be any volume "steps".  DragonFly Red is using the 64-Bit Digital Bit-Perfect Volume Control system.  On Red you would have 64 steps of volume.


----------



## ninetylol

For me the Red is 100% in android now which is pretty dangerous!


----------



## west0ne

alxm said:


> DragonFly Black is using an analog volume control system so there shouldn't be any volume "steps".  DragonFly Red is using the 64-Bit Digital Bit-Perfect Volume Control system.  On Red you would have 64 steps of volume.



If you install ALSA or have tinyalsa installed on your rooted device you can take direct control of the hardware. The PCM_VOLUME setting can be set at an integer of 0-64 in steps of 1. When you plug the DFB into an Android device the PCM_VOLUME is set at 44, by changing this setting using ALSA/tinyalsa commands in terminal you can can increase/decrease the volume levels (these have nothing to do with the Android software voluem settings). Using the volume buttons in Android does not change the internal hardware setting of the DFB, it always stays at 44. If you set it to 64 and then turn the Android volume up to 100% it is significantly louder than 100% at 44. This level appears to be governed by the USB enumerator that takes place during the USB handshake process so it could be changed through firmware if AQ wanted to.

The 1.07 firmware update on the DFB hasn't changed the internal setting of 44. I had sort of assumed that AQ would fudge the issue and would have set the internal value of the DFB to 64/64 (100%) and then left you to control volume in software on Android.  Unfortunately not being able to control the output at a hardware level isn't ideal as it means you can't get full power when you need it but it can introduce noise on more sensitive headphones; I know people have complained about noise on sensitive headphones/IEM's but from personal experience I have found that this disappears if you set the internal hardware volume to a low setting.

I don't have the DFR but based on other comments the same ALSA commands seem to work.


----------



## west0ne

ninetylol said:


> For me the Red is 100% in android now which is pretty dangerous!



I was expecting that AQ would do that. Has it now introduced noise when used with sensitive headphones? I find that I need to set the DFB internal levels quite low when using sensitive headphones and that gets rid of the noise. I'm not sure why they decided not to do the same for the DFB, although I know that the DFB was already louder.

I generally set my Android volume at 100% and control the DFB volume using ALSA controls. I have scripts set up for my various headphones so that I can set the DFB level with a simple tap.


----------



## alxm

west0ne said:


> If you install ALSA or have tinyalsa installed on your rooted device you can take direct control of the hardware. The PCM_VOLUME setting can be set at an integer of 0-64 in steps of 1. When you plug the DFB into an Android device the PCM_VOLUME is set at 44, by changing this setting using ALSA/tinyalsa commands in terminal you can can increase/decrease the volume levels (these have nothing to do with the Android software voluem settings). Using the volume buttons in Android does not change the internal hardware setting of the DFB, it always stays at 44. If you set it to 64 and then turn the Android volume up to 100% it is significantly louder than 100% at 44. This level appears to be governed by the USB enumerator that takes place during the USB handshake process so it could be changed through firmware if AQ wanted to.
> 
> The 1.07 firmware update on the DFB hasn't changed the internal setting of 44. I had sort of assumed that AQ would fudge the issue and would have set the internal value of the DFB to 64/64 (100%) and then left you to control volume in software on Android.  Unfortunately not being able to control the output at a hardware level isn't ideal as it means you can't get full power when you need it but it can introduce noise on more sensitive headphones; I know people have complained about noise on sensitive headphones/IEM's but from personal experience I have found that this disappears if you set the internal hardware volume to a low setting.
> 
> I don't have the DFR but based on other comments the same ALSA commands seem to work.



Got it.  However not everybody roots their phones or wants to for fear of messing something up or voiding their warranty.  AudioQuest is aiming the updates at people who do not root their phones.


----------



## west0ne

alxm said:


> Got it.  However not everybody roots their phones or wants to for fear of messing something up or voiding their warranty.  AudioQuest is aiming the updates at people who do not root their phones.



I suppose the point I was making is that the 1.07 update to the DFB doesn't appear to have done anything to the volume at all, unlike the DFR which now seems to be much louder suggesting that it is running at 100% hardware volume permanently. Being rooted allows me to directly query the hardware to show that they haven't changed the volume setting.

It's not obvious what, if anything the 1.07 update has done to the DFB.


----------



## Hariz Nordin (Feb 16, 2018)

west0ne said:


> I suppose the point I was making is that the 1.07 update to the DFB doesn't appear to have done anything to the volume at all, unlike the DFR which now seems to be much louder suggesting that it is running at 100% hardware volume permanently. Being rooted allows me to directly query the hardware to show that they haven't changed the volume setting.
> 
> It's not obvious what, if anything the 1.07 update has done to the DFB.


Yes, ur correct.. The changes only applies to the DFR


----------



## gazzington

Hi.  I have an old black dragonfly which i like the sound but have to turn phone to high volume to get a decent volume out of it.  Would I have this problem if i bought the dragonfly red?


----------



## Hariz Nordin

gazzington said:


> Hi.  I have an old black dragonfly which i like the sound but have to turn phone to high volume to get a decent volume out of it.  Would I have this problem if i bought the dragonfly red?


The volume for both are almost the same


----------



## gazzington

Is the sound quality a lot better on the red?


----------



## ninetylol

a lot is "relative". some say yes, some say no. If you want more power for harder to drive headphones or be a bit more future proof shoot for the red. if not the black may suffice. I did not hear both though, only got the red, which is awesome.


----------



## Hariz Nordin

gazzington said:


> Is the sound quality a lot better on the red?


Red is wayyyyyyyyy better bro . I tested them both yesterday..


----------



## psikey (Feb 17, 2018)

Just updated to 1.07 and now off to hospital !!

Had my Shure SE846's plugged in and  nearly destroyed my hearing!! Before with the S846's I would have to have nearly on max for a listenable volume and no way it would drive my HD660S headphones without using UAPP.

Now just using Spotify (without using UAPP trick) it would need to be set at only 25-30% but the update has made the SE846's/DFR on their own unusable as background hiss has also more than doubled (on phone & PC). If I use my iFi IEMatch with the SE846's then all is great and volume at around 60%

With HD660S and S7 phone with Dragonfly Red now loud enough two steps below max and too loud on max.

*If you have sensitive IEM's and don't have an iFi IEMatch then don't update !! *Background noise significant after the update. Don't hear any noise with the 150ohm HD660S or if using my SE846's with IEMatch.


----------



## ninetylol

psikey said:


> Just updated to 1.07 and now off to hospital !!


Yeh its a really dumb idea whoever put the DFR to 100% with the update. Without any Warning. I almost killed my eardrums too. Way to go Audioquest!!!


----------



## west0ne

You would think that a company like Audioquest would have the technical knowhow to develop a driver for Android devices that would give us full hardware level control. The current fix only serves to create further problems, many people using the DFR with an Android phone will be using an IEM so will now most likely be suffering a background hiss problem so by solving a problem for part of the user base they have created a different problem for another part of the user base.


----------



## MarkF786

Have any iPhone users tried the new patch?  Any downsides or problems with it?


----------



## morgul

I didn’t notice anything with dragonfly red with firmware 1.07 and iPhone 6s plus.


----------



## gazzington

If I plug these in to my samsung s8 phone, are they powerful enough for higher impedance earbuds or headphones?


----------



## ninetylol

gazzington said:


> If I plug these in to my samsung s8 phone, are they powerful enough for higher impedance earbuds or headphones?


yes.


----------



## neuromancer

psikey said:


> Just updated to 1.07 and now off to hospital !!
> 
> Had my Shure SE846's plugged in and  nearly destroyed my hearing!! Before with the S846's I would have to have nearly on max for a listenable volume and no way it would drive my HD660S headphones without using UAPP.
> 
> ...



Hmmmm....just updated my DFR to 1.07 and plugged in to my note 8 and voila!..........nothing much changed if anything!  WTH is going on as this was supposed to fix the low volume problem with android?  If I plug in my Andromedas to HO of phone and play at around half volume (very sensitive phone), it is about equivalent to the DFR at a little under half......HUH??  This is nowhere near the power capacity of this device. Anyone else have this problem with the latest update?


----------



## drykoke

Have now extensively tested my DFR with 1.07.

1) No perceptible difference with Windows 10 or IOS 11.2.5 (Ipad 2017, CCK3).

2) Much louder with Android (Spotify, YouTube) such that I have to use the absolute minimum for IEM (Phonak PFE 112, Sony XBA-H3)

3) Now able on Android to drive Sennheiser HD600 to very loud levels, with volume slider set to only halfway mark (previously required Max. on Spotify)

4) Caution. The sound has changed on Android. It's like having a sportscar where your foot is now full on the gas pedal. You may or may not like this.Or it may be specific to my tablet.

Conclusions: if you have sensitive IEM, it is better not to update to 1.07.(unless you are happy to have Android volume set to absolute minimum all the time).
If you have hungry headphones like HD600, then it is well worth-doing for the the turbo-charged nature of the sound.


----------



## neuromancer

drykoke said:


> Have now extensively tested my DFR with 1.07.
> 
> 1) No perceptible difference with Windows 10 or IOS 11.2.5 (Ipad 2017, CCK3).
> 
> ...


I'm assuming this is with an android tablet?  With my phone there has been no change with the update.  I'm going to have to try and figure this out as what you are reporting is what it was supposed to do.  Only other concern would now be a possible quicker battery drain?


----------



## west0ne

neuromancer said:


> I'm assuming this is with an android tablet?  With my phone there has been no change with the update.  I'm going to have to try and figure this out as what you are reporting is what it was supposed to do.  Only other concern would now be a possible quicker battery drain?



I have the Black not Red but have always controlled volume at a hardware level, I haven't noticed any discernible change in battery life whether the output is set low for IEMs, at Max when feeding an external Amp or at any level in between so I imagine the Red will be similar. What is noticeable is that when the hardware is set to Max and volume is controlled in Android there is a lot of background hiss on more sensitive IEMs and I suspect that people will notice this with the Red as well.


----------



## Marc Roberts

I am getting a lot of weird digital sounding background noise now when tracks fade out in particular. This is DFR on Google Pixel 2 XL. Probably is related to being max volume in hardware with software volume turned down. At an equivalent volume before the fix, the noise isn't there.

I have noticed this before when using the UAPP workaround previously, but now it's the default behaviour.


----------



## joostdh (Feb 25, 2018)

Can anyone help me? I’ve had a Red for about a month now and roughly once every hour some kind of distortion comes in. It builds up and then fade out, total lasting about 30 seconds. I’m using a MacBook Pro as source and it happens regardless of playback software, headphone amplification or headphone.

Here are two recordings made with my phone of the problem:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/kzgsqydwrc0fegt/iTunes-AQ-DFR-MF-D7200.m4a?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/p1g9zthd5pykie3/Spotify-AQ-DFR-MF-D7200.m4a?dl=0

I couldn’t find anything about this online though must admit I have not read all 279 pages of this thread. Any help is appreciated.

Edit: I updated to firmware 1.07 today, that made no difference.


----------



## shoe73

joostdh said:


> Can anyone help me? I’ve had a Red for about a month now and roughly once every hour some kind of distortion comes in. It builds up and then fade out, total lasting about 30 seconds. I’m using a MacBook Pro as source and it happens regardless of playback software, headphone amplification or headphone.
> Here are two recordings made with my phone of the problem:
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/kzgsqydwrc0fegt/iTunes-AQ-DFR-MF-D7200.m4a?dl=0
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/p1g9zthd5pykie3/Spotify-AQ-DFR-MF-D7200.m4a?dl=0
> ...



Looks like you got a faulty unit, I would contact Audioquest.


----------



## DancingBlue

MarkF786 said:


> Have any iPhone users tried the new patch?  Any downsides or problems with it?



No difference for me on an iPhone X running latest iOS with both CCK2/3 and SE846/Westone W80.


----------



## psikey

Big difference with S7 can now easily drive my HD660S and completely destroy my hearing if not careful with SE846's.

For streamed/offline Tidal/Spotify it still works best with my iPhone SE 128GB. Also best for portability. No upscaling concern with iPhone.


----------



## MarkF786

I've had a DFB for a long time and recently got a DFR.  Oddly, I found they both drive my HD650 to the same volume from my iPhone X.

Also, I don't greatly hear a difference in sound quality.  By the time it takes to switch DACs, my aural memory has faded enough to do a direct comparison.

The DFB is by far the better value.


----------



## Brahmsian (Mar 1, 2018)

Deleted


----------



## Brahmsian

joostdh said:


> Can anyone help me? I’ve had a Red for about a month now and roughly once every hour some kind of distortion comes in. It builds up and then fade out, total lasting about 30 seconds. I’m using a MacBook Pro as source and it happens regardless of playback software, headphone amplification or headphone.
> 
> Here are two recordings made with my phone of the problem:
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/kzgsqydwrc0fegt/iTunes-AQ-DFR-MF-D7200.m4a?dl=0
> ...


 Jitterbug helps only a little a this problem.


----------



## joostdh

Brahmsian said:


> Jitterbug helps only a little a this problem.



Thank you for your reply. I just got a jitterbug so will find out.

Are you familiar with this problem too?


----------



## silmusic

joostdh said:


> Thank you for your reply. I just got a jitterbug so will find out.
> 
> Are you familiar with this problem too?



Yes, I have the same case with Black. Also MacBook Pro, OS 10.10.5. I think it is operating system problem, because it appears only when I'm playing music via coreaudio. It starts, when some other application (for example, browser) make some noise. Or, if I'm watching Youtube, and the video is changing to another one, or commercial started. In my case the distortion is permanent. I can repair it only by unplugging Black and then plugging back again. Never experienced this problem with software, which uses Ad hock "Integer mode" (Roon, Audirwana). 

Update to 1.07 didn't help.


----------



## DivaFonda

My limited experience for what it's worth:

I'm getting louder volume on my DFB after 1.07. This is through my laptop only though. I haven't tried it on any of my phones. No distortion but I'm not listening to hi-def files, just streaming YouTube so far. Headphones used are the Focal Elear and the Audeze Sine. There's a definite increase in volume because the Focals were already loud and they're now even louder. The Sines are more power hungry and needed higher volume around 63-65%, but are now fine at around 50%.

I know people said only the DFR was higher volume but my DFB definitely got an update too.


----------



## Brahmsian

joostdh said:


> Thank you for your reply. I just got a jitterbug so will find out.
> 
> Are you familiar with this problem too?



I listened to the recordings you made. It sounds exactly like that. That's how I know it's the same problem. Let me know if Jitterbug has helped any. It seems to have minimized the problem on my end, but by no means has it been eliminated. I'm thinking about getting another Jitterbug since AudioQuest recommends you use two.


----------



## Brahmsian (Mar 3, 2018)

joostdh said:


> Thank you for your reply. I just got a jitterbug so will find out.
> 
> Are you familiar with this problem too?


Actually, I'm on the fence as to whether Jitterbug does anything to address the problem. I probably would've returned it except that it seems to have improved the sound in other ways. The music seems smoother, easier to listen to. So I'm happy with Jitterbug even though it didn't solve that specific problem.

If others are experiencing the same thing, it'd be nice if you commented. joostdh made two recordings. So here is what you hear.



joostdh said:


> https://www.dropbox.com/s/kzgsqydwrc0fegt/iTunes-AQ-DFR-MF-D7200.m4a?dl=0
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/p1g9zthd5pykie3/Spotify-AQ-DFR-MF-D7200.m4a?dl=0


Take a moment to listen. Tell us if you've ever heard anything like it using DragonFly or any USB DAC/amp. At this point, I don't know if the DFR is defective and I should return it under warranty or whether it's a common USB problem.


----------



## andrewski (Mar 4, 2018)

Brahmsian said:


> I'm thinking about getting another Jitterbug since AudioQuest recommends you use two.



To be clear, Audioquest doesn't recommend using two in the same chain. Rather, on any remaining usb ports


----------



## Marc Roberts

Yes, I have had this, it happened to be a few times for a few seconds straight after plugging it in. Doesn't seam to happen again that session.

With the new firmware when using android I also get some horrible digital background noise that's kind of similar when a song fades out or in really quiet parts.


----------



## mjmax

I just purchased the Dragonfly Red and I must say I am very happy with the sound quality! I hesitated some time before to buy it because I read a few blogs/articles saying that external DACs are scams and don't bring any improvement (did they even try them before writing that??)... At the same time I read this thread and its positive reviews, which convinced me to try it. 

I use the Dragonfly with my Sony XBA N3. I compared variety of songs on both my laptop & desktop PC (Dell XPS). The dragonfly was always better. It gives the sound much more depth, presence and clarity. However, I feel the improvement is more noticeable when I listen to pop or Jazz than when I listen to metal. Probably because metal has less isolated sounds and it's more difficult to grasp tiny details when electric guitars, battery and bass are playing in full power and overlapping each other. I am curious if someone else noticed that the Dragonfly does a better job with certain kinds of music.

I only get one concern: The cap is very hard to put and remove. Additionally, if I look closely, the head is not exactly aligned with the body. Does someone has the same issue? I thinking to return it and have it changed because I have to pull strongly the cap to remove it and I am afraid to damage it each time...


----------



## joostdh

mjmax said:


> The cap is very hard to put and remove. Additionally, if I look closely, the head is not exactly aligned with the body


Not sure if this answers your question but the cap definitely has a right and wrong orientation; the audio quest letters on the cap should be on the same side as Dragonfly on the body. If i reverse the cap it does go on, albeit slightly stiffer and the cap is then misaligned with the body. 

And yes, to my ears DACs do make a difference and I would be surprised if someone said otherwise. How much of a difference is obviously dependant on what you start of with and what you are listening on/with determines how much of the difference you can hear. Well, that and your ears.


----------



## cathee

Just switched to Win10 from OSX, so this might be a very stupid question but I use Tidal "Exclusive Mode" and "Passthrough MQA" and after installing the most recent firmware update the volume is extremely loud. 

With all but one pair of headphones (650 ohms), I'm struggling to drag my volume in Tidal to be more than 6-8 clicks from the bottom. Can be really frustrating at times and volume jump seems significant between clicks. What keywords should I be searching for? Does anyone else share this problem?

TIA.


----------



## cathee

joostdh said:


> Not sure if this answers your question but the cap definitely has a right and wrong orientation; the audio quest letters on the cap should be on the same side as Dragonfly on the body. If i reverse the cap it does go on, albeit slightly stiffer and the cap is then misaligned with the body.



Definitely took me a while to notice this too. It wasn't until the first time I put the Dragonfly away did I notice there's a small logo on the cap and it should be facing the same direction as the logo/light on the body.

EDIT: spelling


----------



## west0ne

cathee said:


> Just switched to Win10 from OSX, so this might be a very stupid question but I use Tidal "Exclusive Mode" and "Passthrough MQA" and after installing the most recent firmware update the volume is extremely loud.
> 
> With all but one pair of headphones (650 ohms), I'm struggling to drag my volume in Tidal to be more than 6-8 clicks from the bottom. Can be really frustrating at times and volume jump seems significant between clicks. What keywords should I be searching for? Does anyone else share this problem?
> 
> TIA.



I think that this is a common issue with Windows and the DFB/DFR being too loud. To get around this I use Equalizer APO with Peace GUI and set pre-amp to -30dB, this gives plenty of room in the volume control.


----------



## mjmax

joostdh said:


> Not sure if this answers your question but the cap definitely has a right and wrong orientation; the audio quest letters on the cap should be on the same side as Dragonfly on the body. If i reverse the cap it does go on, albeit slightly stiffer and the cap is then misaligned with the body.
> 
> And yes, to my ears DACs do make a difference and I would be surprised if someone said otherwise. How much of a difference is obviously dependant on what you start of with and what you are listening on/with determines how much of the difference you can hear. Well, that and your ears.


Thank you. Yes I noticed that the cap is not symmetrical. I always it put the logo of the cap facing the light of the body, but even this way, it is hard to put the cap and even harder to remove it... Can you really remove it smoothly on yours?


----------



## DivaFonda

I can't speak for the other poster but I can. I wonder if it's possible you got sold a used but returned one.


----------



## MarkF786

I’ve had two Blacks in which the cap was easy to remove. Recently I bought a Red and the cap is a b*tch to remove. 



mjmax said:


> Thank you. Yes I noticed that the cap is not symmetrical. I always it put the logo of the cap facing the light of the body, but even this way, it is hard to put the cap and even harder to remove it... Can you really remove it smoothly on yours?


----------



## mjmax

MarkF786 said:


> I’ve had two Blacks in which the cap was easy to remove. Recently I bought a Red and the cap is a b*tch to remove.


Interesting.. so some of them have this problem... 
Mine doesn't look like a returned one, but of course it's difficult to know.. The packaging at least was new.

Here is one of the articles that I read and that tell DACs are not worth to buy... I am happy that I bought it anyway. From what I hear, the dragonfly really brings a great improvement.

https://warmleftovers.com/2016/03/21/portable-dacs-are-stupid-and-you-dont-need-one/


----------



## zeroselect

mjmax said:


> Interesting.. so some of them have this problem...
> Mine doesn't look like a returned one, but of course it's difficult to know.. The packaging at least was new.
> 
> Here is one of the articles that I read and that tell DACs are not worth to buy... I am happy that I bought it anyway. From what I hear, the dragonfly really brings a great improvement.
> ...



Great link to someone who has no clue what they are talking about.

That's like recommending someone to don't bother to purchase a GPU and just use your onboard graphics on your motherboard (or APU if you wanna get fancy).


----------



## cathee

That article has to be satire...


----------



## KaiFi

No offense, but the person who wrote that article is a dingbat 

I agree that some portable DACs might not make as much of a difference, and how much difference they make is going to depend on what headphones you have and what kind of files you play, but once you've heard sound through a good DAC/amp, you're never going to want to go back to "on-board" audio.


----------



## shultzee

I am going to be listing a less than 2 month old DF Red on head-fi soon.  If anyone is interested send me a pm.


----------



## Sleepow (Mar 13, 2018)

Sorry, I could probably search the thread to find the info, but what is the status with clicks and pops on iPhone X.
I got the Dragonfly red yesterday with the  USB2 CCK, unaware of the fact that this is a know defect.
Is there a chance this ever gets fixed or should I just forget it and try to get some money back.


----------



## shoe73 (Mar 14, 2018)

Sleepow said:


> Sorry, I could probably search the thread to find the info, but what is the status with clicks and pops on iPhone X.
> I got the Dragonfly red yesterday with the  USB2 CCK, unaware of the fact that this is a know defect.
> Is there a chance this ever gets fixed or should I just forget it and try to get some money back.


You have to use the USB3 CCK. Yes the search box could have gotten you there. Or you could go to Audioquest web site and check there, you would find:
-When connected to an iOS device using the recommended Camera Connection Kit, my DragonFly Red or Black exhibits clicks and pops in the background of the music. What should I do?
-In some rare instances, the combination of an iOS device in conjunction with the standard CCK and DragonFly Black or Red causes a clicking in the background of the music.
Neither we nor Apple have been able to determine why that is, but in circumstances where this occurs we’ve found that using Apple’s Lightning to USB 3.0 Camera Connection Kit resolves the problem. In addition, this connector offers improved audio performance over the smaller unit and gives the end user the ability to charge their iOS device while listening to music.​


----------



## luckybaer

zeroselect said:


> Great link to someone who has no clue what they are talking about.
> 
> That's like recommending someone to don't bother to purchase a GPU and just use your onboard graphics on your motherboard (or APU if you wanna get fancy).


I can say that using the DFRed with my iPhone 7 makes a big difference vs. just using the dongle adapter thingy and headphones alone.  I don't know if this is due to the DAC in the DFRed or the amp, but it does make my listening more enjoyable.  Also, DFRed makes an even bigger difference (at least to my ears) when I use it in my car.  Using dongle to aux cord is OK, but iPhone > CCK > DFRed > aux cord sounds clearer.  Again, it is just my opinion.  The DFRed is one of the better audio-related purchases I've made in a long time.

Oh, and the music on my iPhone is ALAC, not FLAC.  But I do have FLAC copies on my hard drive(s) (right next to my ALAC copies).  Hahaha... that blogger can sit and spin for all I care.  I know what I like.


----------



## Sleepow

shoe73 said:


> You have to use the USB3 CCK. Yes the search box could have gotten you there. Or you could go to Audioquest web site and check there, you would find:
> -When connected to an iOS device using the recommended Camera Connection Kit, my DragonFly Red or Black exhibits clicks and pops in the background of the music. What should I do?
> -In some rare instances, the combination of an iOS device in conjunction with the standard CCK and DragonFly Black or Red causes a clicking in the background of the music.
> Neither we nor Apple have been able to determine why that is, but in circumstances where this occurs we’ve found that using Apple’s Lightning to USB 3.0 Camera Connection Kit resolves the problem. In addition, this connector offers improved audio performance over the smaller unit and gives the end user the ability to charge their iOS device while listening to music.​



Thank you for the reply.
Actually I was aware of the AQ FAQ; this is where I learnt that it is a known defect.
What I hope was some insight about : is there a chance this ever gets fixed (with the  CCK); which basically means : is  AQ still trying.

I am reluctant to get the  CCK3 as it is not practical to have a dongle bigger than the actual device (would not have went the DFR route should have I known)

Judging by the tone of the FAQ, sounds like they gave up.


----------



## Dorokun

Been using DF Red with my Oppo PM-3 Cans for a while, it definitely improved the treble and soundstage of the PM-3 which I am happy with, though only by a little bit I'd say. Can't hear any notable improvement on the mids. The bass are somewhat more accurate and less muddy. I noticed better sound quality in 80% of my songs that I listened to. The improvement is welcomed, though I'm not sure if it's worth the 175 US dollars I spent. It also works flawlessly on my Samsung S8+ with the USB C male to USB A female adapter that came with the S8+

There's a minor problem that's been bothering me though, when I paused a song and resume it, usually it'd suddenly not put out any sound as if it froze for half a second. This happens on my laptop AND my phone. It happens more often on my laptop more than my phone, I use Foobar2000 on my laptop and I've never had this problem when I directly plug my cans into my laptop, so I'm assuming it's the DF red's fault. Though it doesn't happen often now compared when I first got it, still pretty happy with the sound it puts out compared to my laptop's own sound.


----------



## DancingBlue

Sleepow said:


> Sorry, I could probably search the thread to find the info, but what is the status with clicks and pops on iPhone X.
> I got the Dragonfly red yesterday with the  USB2 CCK, unaware of the fact that this is a know defect.
> Is there a chance this ever gets fixed or should I just forget it and try to get some money back.





shoe73 said:


> You have to use the USB3 CCK. Yes the search box could have gotten you there. Or you could go to Audioquest web site and check there, you would find:
> -When connected to an iOS device using the recommended Camera Connection Kit, my DragonFly Red or Black exhibits clicks and pops in the background of the music. What should I do?
> -In some rare instances, the combination of an iOS device in conjunction with the standard CCK and DragonFly Black or Red causes a clicking in the background of the music.
> Neither we nor Apple have been able to determine why that is, but in circumstances where this occurs we’ve found that using Apple’s Lightning to USB 3.0 Camera Connection Kit resolves the problem. In addition, this connector offers improved audio performance over the smaller unit and gives the end user the ability to charge their iOS device while listening to music.​



There have been mixed reports earlier in the thread. I had the clicks and pops issue with the DFR and CCK2 on my iPhone 6s+. I don't have the problem with the iPhone X. Can use the DFR and CCK2 for hours at a time, no problem at all. Silver iPhone X, 256GB, T-Mobile version. Latest version of iOS 11, CCK2 has latest firmware, as does the DFR. But I had no problems either with the last DFR firmware nor with earlier versions of iOS 11.


----------



## Sleepow

DancingBlue said:


> There have been mixed reports earlier in the thread. I had the clicks and pops issue with the DFR and CCK2 on my iPhone 6s+. I don't have the problem with the iPhone X. Can use the DFR and CCK2 for hours at a time, no problem at all. Silver iPhone X, 256GB, T-Mobile version. Latest version of iOS 11, CCK2 has latest firmware, as does the DFR. But I had no problems either with the last DFR firmware nor with earlier versions of iOS 11.



Hi,

Thank you for your reply.
Are the CCK firmware upgradable?


----------



## DancingBlue

Sleepow said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thank you for your reply.
> Are the CCK firmware upgradable?



Yeah, when you plug in the CCK2/3, if a firmware update is available, iOS will pop up an alert offering you the chance to upgrade or cancel. If you cancel, the popup will keep appearing every time you plug the CCK back in. So, if you don't get a popup, it means you're on the latest firmware.


----------



## PeteMtl

DancingBlue said:


> There have been mixed reports earlier in the thread. I had the clicks and pops issue with the DFR and CCK2 on my iPhone 6s+. I don't have the problem with the iPhone X. Can use the DFR and CCK2 for hours at a time, no problem at all. Silver iPhone X, 256GB, T-Mobile version. Latest version of iOS 11, CCK2 has latest firmware, as does the DFR. But I had no problems either with the last DFR firmware nor with earlier versions of iOS 11.



Same with me. Since I now use an iPhone X, I may use the CCK2 with the DFR without any noticeable clicks anymore. I just got the iPhone X, so I didn’t have time to use the DFR a lot since, but so far so good. I may use the CCK2 or CCK3 without any problems. Before I had the iPhone 6S and I noticed more clicks and pops with the CCK2. I already noticed that my iPhone 6S had the problem a lot more noticeable then with my iPad Pro 9.7. I may therefore conclude that the DFR/CCK2 clcks problems is more related to earlier iPhones such as the IP6S. I will test the iPhone X a lot more in the next few days but so far so good with the DFR and CCK2.


----------



## Colors (Mar 22, 2018)

Been using my Dragonfly Red for a few weeks (gift from gf) with Pinnacle P1 and Sennheiser Momentum IEM. Here are my impressions:

1. Much bigger difference when using TIDAL vs. Apple Music. You don't really hear much of a difference with Apple Music vs. there is much more body, detail, soundstage and bass with TIDAL.

2. Sounds better on laptop and car (yes I've tried it with my car) than iPhone. These two have a much stronger system and the detail and body of the music gets amplified.

3. It drives my P1 (50 ohms) better than my Senn Momentum IEM (16 ohms). Not surprising.

Conclusion: Basically, better if you have headphones or earphones with large resistance (ex: P1, EX4) and using FLACs.

Is it worth CAD250? I don't think so personally with the CCK costing CAD35 also. I would definitely get the DFB for CAD130 but not the red. Is it a great present? Definitely 

Hope this helps anyone looking to buy it.

On a side note: I use this in conjunction with the Jitterbug. I find the Jitterbug is definitely worth the purchase price. It adds a lot of contrast (extension?) and warmth to my music. Basically it cleans up the music (in conjunction with DFR).

I will post more comments once I get my ER4XR.


----------



## Colors

What a disappointment. The right earphone of the ER4XR I ordered does not work (volume is much lower than the left). I was hoping to test it with my DFR and post some results.


----------



## miguelfcp

Where can I see the changelog of the new 1.07 version for DragonFly?


----------



## SchwarzeWolke

Tried the DF Black today with my NWZ-A15 from Sony. I used the WMC-NWH10 USB Conversion Cable from Sony. The DF Black was glowing magenta but I could not get any sound of it... It also drained the battery really quick...
In contrast, my ifi iDSD LE worked without any problems.


----------



## RockStar2005

Rotten Apple said:


> This is not an Apple vs Android post. This is simply an observation of what Audioquest has done when releasing its Red and Black DACs which resemble "USB sticks." We use these sticks in North America. Audioquest made it easy for Apple to use its CCK to use most DACs readily usable. I use the Dragonfly Red on the road and the Mojo Chord when mobile around the house. If it is your belief that "Audioquest marketed the hell out of their new Dragonflies boosting (sic) that they're smarpthone (sic) comaptible (sic) then I would take it up with them. I have been reading Head-Fi for years and knew before purchasing that it would likely not work  with my LG G5.
> 
> You state that the Dragonfly volume issue can easily be fixed with an app but then go on to say that issues will probably fixed when Android O comes out. Good luck with your stated 99% of other than Apple phones miraculously supporting Android O. Finally you bash the sound that comes directly from an Apple phone vs a Sony Xperia XZ. The purpose of this section is to comment on the Dragonfly which bypasses the phones' DAC.
> 
> The bottom line from where I see it is that those with Apple phones will have a good experience. For android, most likely Audioquest will come out with some sort of list of phones which they will support with updates. It won't be a standard per say, but at least something that let's the consumer know where they stand with respect to compatibility. If you own an Android phone it would wise to research whether the Dragonfly is right for you now, not in a future wonderland  of maybes. Buyer beware.



Has anyone confirmed that since this posting that Android O has "fixed" this issue yet on for ALL Android phones running O? 

Someone on Amazon just posted this comment on 3/15 (below) which seems to state it hasn't been fixed, but even now in March of 2018 many phones still don't have Oreo yet, so I don't know if this guy has it or not as he doesn't even mention which Android phone he owns. For example, I have the locked T-Mobile LG V30, and still have NOT received the Oreo update yet. 



Spoiler



_Additionally, many Dragonfly owners (this one too) report weak volume during playback even with the phone/tablet volume at maximum. Apparently the Android's native audio-over-USB driver does not permit the Dragonfly Red to achieve its full (internal) volume capability. As a result, even with the phone/tablet volume placed at maximum, the listening volume is barely adequate. Any noisy environment - plane, train, subway, etc - will result in the played file being hard to hear. After emails with Audioquest and more Google searching, this is a known issue going back a couple of years and is attributed to the native Android audio-over-USB driver limiting the Dragonfly to approximately one third its available (internal) volume output. A fix has been discussed all this time, and would seem to be on Google/Android to rectify at some point. 

So, what to do if one wants to use the Dragonfly? Audioquest recommends the USB Audio Player Pro ($8, downloadable from Google Play Store). It contains an independent audio-over-USB driver and allows the user to increase the volume of played material to more reasonable levels (within the settings menu of the USB Audio Player Pro). (Note: I searched for free alternatives to this player, but was unable to find any that worked as well, with one causing some distortion when amplifier power was raised.) The combination of the Dragonfly Red, USB Audio Player Pro, and my headphones sound magnificent. So, until the driver issue is rectified by Android, owners of Android equipment may need to seek a different music player software than the one they currently use due to the audio-over-USB driver issue._




Just curious is all. If the new Sony Xperia XZ2 Pro comes out AND has T-Mobile-certified VoLTE on it (it prob won't, but maybe? lol), I may upgrade cuz I love and prefer Sony Xperia phones above all else.


----------



## west0ne

Oreo does not appear to have fixed the volume control issue with the Dragonfly Black. I have the S9, I haven't rooted yet so it still needs UAPP to change the volume and it still glows pink with all audio when UAPP isn't being used.

I've also used unofficial versions of Oreo with the same results.


----------



## RockStar2005

west0ne said:


> Oreo does not appear to have fixed the volume control issue with the Dragonfly Black. I have the S9, I haven't rooted yet so it still needs UAPP to change the volume and it still glows pink with all audio when UAPP isn't being used.
> 
> I've also used unofficial versions of Oreo with the same results.



Hmm ok. Thanks west0ne! I guess if I change phones in the near future and the amp/DAC on it isn't up to par, I'll have to look into the USB Audio app then.


----------



## Cyral

Anyone has issues with using the dragonfly with Tidal? When streaming mqa content it sounds distorted and I can see some changes in the light on the dragonfly, a very light flicker from pink to dark pink ( which you see when streaming mqa ). 

Also, the dragonfly will jump to max volume when I play the first song after opening tidal, which happend twice already.. painful.


----------



## Bartig

Hi guys, I read pages of your posts here, but I still wonder: does the DFR work properly on an iPhone X now?

I made an appointment to buy one this evening, I can still pass it now...


----------



## Cyral

No problems here with the iphone x and the red dragonfly.


----------



## RockStar2005

Bartig said:


> Hi guys, I read pages of your posts here, but I still wonder: does the DFR work properly on an iPhone X now?
> 
> I made an appointment to buy one this evening, I can still pass it now...



From what I understood, the only issue with the DFR was with Android, not iOS. But I didn't read through every single post of the 282 pages on here thus far lol, so I may be wrong.


----------



## N0m1nd

Hi all

I have a problem with my new *Dragonfly RED* on my *Samsung Galaxy S8*+.
On my Desktop Computer i notice an improvement of soundquality using the DFR. On the Galaxy S8 the soundquality is considerably worse than over the headphone jack. 
I use a normal Samsung USB OTG adapter-dongle between DFR and the phone. As music player i use USB Audio Player Pro (Headphones: Audioquest Nighthawk ).

Any idea why DFR is not working properly on my S8? Thanks a lot!


----------



## DancingBlue

Cyral said:


> No problems here with the iphone x and the red dragonfly.



Same.


----------



## Bartig

Bought it and everything seems to be fine, hurrah! Thanks!


----------



## DancingBlue

Bartig said:


> Bought it and everything seems to be fine, hurrah! Thanks!



One of us! One of us!


----------



## Bitsir

Headphones: Audioquest Nighthawk (Original 2015 Wood Edition)

DAC+AMP: Chord Mojo



I just now received my Audioquest Dragonfly Red. 

Out of the box, it showcases much-improved imaging, soundstage depth (and I believe width) and greater perceived transients.

With price in consideration, It really destroys the Mojo in the soundstage department and It's not just about the size of it... it's how everything interacts within that space. The sense of separation, localization and ambiance is much greater through the Red.

I can also sense a bit more energy in the treble through the Red, with more TWANG and excitement. The Mojo has a greater sense of continuity, smoothness and effortlessness, owed to its FPGA custom chip. It's almost as if Chord ran out of money and couldn't afford to code a soundstage... It's very close and cramped. I'm not really **** on Chord. Mojo is amazing if you value detail over everything else. If you value soundstage and everything else I've talked about, either save for a Hugo or QUTEST or look elsewhere I guess.


----------



## RockStar2005

Bitsir said:


> Headphones: Audioquest Nighthawk (Original 2015 Wood Edition)
> 
> DAC+AMP: Chord Mojo
> 
> ...



Outdoes the Mojo which is like triple the price?! That's awesome!!!  lol


----------



## KaiFi

I own the Mojo and the DFR and while I wouldn't say the DFR beats the Mojo (the Mojo just has a more "powerful" sound; I can really feel the bass with it and it's just not there on the DFR), the DFR is pretty great for what it is, and I found the DFR sounded better (better soundstage and detail) than the Fiio Q5 (the extra price of the Q5 would be for the extra features, but in terms of sound alone, the DFR has it beat).


----------



## spark plugs.

I own the Mojo and DFR. Comparing the two is laughable. Yes, the DFR is brighter than the Mojo. In my case, it made my SE535, SE846, and Andromedas so bright that I would get fatigue in a half hour. 

I find my iPhone X dongle easier to listen to over long periods than the DFR.


----------



## Bitsir

spark plugs. said:


> I own the Mojo and DFR. Comparing the two is laughable. Yes, the DFR is brighter than the Mojo. In my case, it made my SE535, SE846, and Andromedas so bright that I would get fatigue in a half hour.
> 
> I find my iPhone X dongle easier to listen to over long periods than the DFR.


DFR is bested handily in many categories including detail, smoothness, bass control, power and sense of effortlessness. Where DFR has it beat, IMO, is soundstage, imaging, ambiance, portability and ease of use (the Mojo is a hassle to use NGL.)

I imagine the HUGO takes the best from Mojo and DFR and combines it into one, but even better.


----------



## Bitsir

RockStar2005 said:


> Outdoes the Mojo which is like triple the price?! That's awesome!!!  lol


It outdoes it in areas that I find important, and with price in mind.

Some like the Mojo and its signature, I don't. I respect it, but it's shortcomings are too severe for me personally.


----------



## RockStar2005

Bitsir said:


> It outdoes it in areas that I find important, and with price in mind.
> 
> Some like the Mojo and its signature, I don't. I respect it, but it's shortcomings are too severe for me personally.



I C. Cool.


----------



## Bitsir

For some reason, the Dragonfly Red is absolute crap at driving the 1More Quad Driver IEMs. The presence region is incredibly suppressed and it sounds very very wrong. Like there's 4 layers of cloth between the music and me. I've read about the new Dragonflies being crap at driving IEMS, maybe there is some truth to it.. Or perhaps it just doesn't gel with multi-driver setups.

Either way, extremely disappointing.


----------



## RockStar2005

Bitsir said:


> For some reason, the Dragonfly Red is absolute **** at driving the 1More Quad Driver IEMs. The presence region is incredibly suppressed and it sounds very very wrong. Like there's 4 layers of cloth between the music and me. I've read about the new Dragonflies being **** at driving IEMS, maybe there is some truth to it.. Or perhaps it just doesn't gel with multi-driver setups.
> 
> Either way, extremely disappointing.



Hmm ok. Don't pair the DFB or DFR with IEMs. Got it. lol


----------



## Brahmsian (Mar 29, 2018)

joostdh said:


> Can anyone help me? I’ve had a Red for about a month now and roughly once every hour some kind of distortion comes in. It builds up and then fade out, total lasting about 30 seconds. I’m using a MacBook Pro as source and it happens regardless of playback software, headphone amplification or headphone.
> 
> Here are two recordings made with my phone of the problem:
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/kzgsqydwrc0fegt/iTunes-AQ-DFR-MF-D7200.m4a?dl=0
> ...



Am wondering what MacBook version you are using, what year. I was using an old mid-2010 MacBook. I've since switched to a new MacBook Pro with USBC port. So far, the distortion has gone away completely. If it returns, I'll be sure to post so we can rule out age as causing the problem.

So far, so good though. It would explain why most people don't experience this type of distortion, since they're probably using newer Macs or Windows PCs.


----------



## joostdh

Brahmsian said:


> Am wondering what MacBook version you are using, what year. I was using an old mid-2010 MacBook. I've since switched to a new MacBook Pro with USBC port. So far, the distortion has gone away completely. If it returns, I'll be sure to post so we can rule out age as causing the problem.
> 
> So far, so good though. It would explain why most people don't experience this type of distortion, since they're probably using newer Macs or Windows PCs.



I’m using a “early 2013” 15 inch MacBook Pro so indeed not he most recent of models. If it is linked to the use of older MacBooks I wonder what the (technical) cause is.


----------



## miguelfcp

Bitsir said:


> For some reason, the Dragonfly Red is absolute **** at driving the 1More Quad Driver IEMs. The presence region is incredibly suppressed and it sounds very very wrong. Like there's 4 layers of cloth between the music and me.* I've read about the new Dragonflies being **** at driving IEMS*, maybe there is some truth to it.. Or perhaps it just doesn't gel with multi-driver setups.
> 
> Either way, extremely disappointing.



I have an 1More Triple Driver In ear and I use DragonFly Black and the sound is beatiful! Nothing like you describe it.


----------



## Larryp12

I agree> I also have the 1More Triple Driver  and feel that the SQ with the DFR is exceptional.


----------



## RockStar2005

Larryp12 said:


> I agree> I also have the 1More Triple Driver  and feel that the SQ with the DFR is exceptional.



Hmm interesting. So maybe it's something else causing the issue Bitsir?


----------



## Maelob

DFB with my SM-64 sounds great- my gym rig. I even use it my my Z1R and sounds very good to me.


----------



## Bitsir

Larryp12 said:


> I agree> I also have the 1More Triple Driver  and feel that the SQ with the DFR is exceptional.


Maybe it's just the Quad then? I doubt anything is broken or not as it should be, just the synergy between DRF and Quad is very off to my ears.. =[


----------



## Montage

I am suffering frequent but irregular short dropouts of the audio from my DRF Red connected to an iPhone X via the recommended Apple Lightning to USB 3.0 Camera Connection Kit. Is anyone else experiencing this issue?


----------



## X-Frame

Hey everyone. Apologies as I’m sure this has been asked a good amount, this is a big thread — what cables do I need exactly to connect my DFR to my Magni 3 to my MacBook Pro (2016)?

I have an older Modi 2 Uber (before upgraded to its current 4490 chip) but want to try the DFR in line-out to my Magni 3 instead.

Thank you!


----------



## KaiFi (Apr 2, 2018)

X-Frame said:


> Hey everyone. Apologies as I’m sure this has been asked a good amount, this is a big thread — what cables do I need exactly to connect my DFR to my Magni 3 to my MacBook Pro (2016)?
> 
> I have an older Modi 2 Uber (before upgraded to its current 4490 chip) but want to try the DFR in line-out to my Magni 3 instead.
> 
> Thank you!



USB-C to USB-A adapter to connect DFR to 2016 MacBook Pro:

https://www.audioquest.com/accessories/splitters-connectors-adaptors/adaptors/usb-a-to-c-adaptor

3.5mm to RCA to connect DFR to Magni 3:

https://www.amazon.com/Audioquest-E...udioquest+3.5+to+rca&psc=1&smid=AKR88PAWTQVN2

Turn the volume up all the way on the DFR to use as a line out device.


----------



## X-Frame

KaiFi said:


> USB-C to USB-A adapter to connect DFR to 2016 MacBook Pro:
> 
> https://www.audioquest.com/accessories/splitters-connectors-adaptors/adaptors/usb-a-to-c-adaptor
> 
> ...



Thank you SO much!

I do have the USB-A to USB-C adapter to use my DFR with my MacBook now, so I just need those RCA cables.


----------



## VRacer-111 (Apr 2, 2018)

Something like this would be better for the USB adapter, you really don't want the DRF or any full sized USB connection hard mounted to a much smaller sized port.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077FD3VG4/ref=psdc_464394_t2_B01GGKYXVE


----------



## DancingBlue

Montage said:


> I am suffering frequent but irregular short dropouts of the audio from my DRF Red connected to an iPhone X via the recommended Apple Lightning to USB 3.0 Camera Connection Kit. Is anyone else experiencing this issue?



No problem here, but others have reported the same problem you describe and other issues as well. So...no consensus, and no obvious culprit either.


----------



## ScruffyDan

Montage said:


> I am suffering frequent but irregular short dropouts of the audio from my DRF Red connected to an iPhone X via the recommended Apple Lightning to USB 3.0 Camera Connection Kit. Is anyone else experiencing this issue?



I had a similar issue, but the update iOS 11.3 seems to have fixed it.


----------



## Researcher

We have been with Dragonfly red for a couple of years. Dragonfly v1.2 had lasted alone for two years when current versions was released. 

Is there any rumors as to whether new Dragonflies will be placed on shelf  by/ in this summer? I think chip of DAC seems to be out dating, and lack of native DSD decoding could be addressable for upcoming Dragonflies.


----------



## west0ne

Researcher said:


> We have been with Dragonfly red for a couple of years. Dragonfly v1.2 had lasted alone for two years when current versions was released.
> 
> Is there any rumors as to whether new Dragonflies will be placed on shelf  by/ in this summer? I think chip of DAC seems to be out dating, and lack of native DSD decoding could be addressable for upcoming Dragonflies.



The chip in the current DFB/DFR is capable of more but as I understand it Audioquest took the view that 24/96 was more than enough and wanted the device to be capable of being used driverless.


----------



## RockStar2005

west0ne said:


> The chip in the current DFB/DFR is capable of more but as I understand it Audioquest took the view that 24/96 was more than enough and wanted the device to be capable of being used driverless.



They should update them every 2-3 years (the DFR was released in 2016), just to stay current, esp since DAC sales are diminishing thanks to newer smartphones with audiophile-grade amps & DACs like the HTC 10 (and U11?), LG V20 & V30, and ZTE Axon 7. Also, Oppo is calling it quits on audio including their amp/DAC line, like the HA-2, which I used to own and was awesome.


----------



## KaiFi

^Dang, the news from Oppo is kinda sad. Just when I thought there was an increase in audiophile products and interest (with Tidal and the resurgence of vinyl), now we're seeing one company bow out 

I haven't heard any rumors about a new Dragonfly, but I'd like to see one. Maybe a Dragonfly Blue with increased functions  It seems when they come out with a new one, it's always a sonic improvement over the last. I like the sound of the DFR, but I can envision how it could sound more punchy and detailed.


----------



## RockStar2005

KaiFi said:


> ^Dang, the news from Oppo is kinda sad. Just when I thought there was an increase in audiophile products and interest (with Tidal and the resurgence of vinyl), now we're seeing one company bow out
> 
> I haven't heard any rumors about a new Dragonfly, but I'd like to see one. Maybe a Dragonfly Blue with increased functions  It seems when they come out with a new one, it's always a sonic improvement over the last. I like the sound of the DFR, but I can envision how it could sound more punchy and detailed.



Yeah........Oppo sites competition from streaming as being a main reason for the Blu-ray player business being terminated. I can understand that. With the audiophile products, that's just my 2 cents about the improved smartphones b/c let's face it, MOST ppl these days (including me at this point) prefer to listen to their music from their phones b/c of the great convenience that choice brings you (and cost savings, vs. buying a second device to carry around). So it makes sense. I myself LOVED my old Oppo HA-2 amp/DAC, but when HTC came out with the 10 I compared it to the HA-2 and I felt it MATCHED the quality of that $300 device, so I sold the HA-2 off right after. My current V30 is as good if not better than the 10 in terms of audio quality, so as long as these phones are available, I won't need a DFR. But we need more of these phones as I'm not sure on the HTC's newer phones' quality as I as the 10's, and though my V30 is great overall it's not fantastic in terms of camera and UI/software issues. I had texting issues and data connection issues with it which I think I've fixed, but still. The texting I switched from Textra app to Pulse app which fixed that. But data sometimes I have to restart phone to get it to work after turning off Wi-Fi. So I dunno. lol 

I think there is a renewed interest in audiophile products. I keep reading how vinyl and CD sales are actually outpacing digital downloads (though only b/c streaming is getting so big, which isn't necessarily a good thing if the quality is not great), and the fact that we have these "audiophile-grade" phones coming out says something too. I think ppl like ppl who come on here will still buy amp/DACs, but the cheaper ones like the DFR might be in danger as more of these special phones come out. Samsung and Apple though are NOT releasing audiophile phones, and since they are the 2 biggest sellers, as long as they don't, the DFR and DFB both will be safe. lol


----------



## Researcher

I think it is about to be released new versions of DFs. I hope they would be based on the newest DAC like 9038 with with well engineered-design. Maybe we will see 2.5mm balanced output )


----------



## good sound

Researcher said:


> I think it is about to be released new versions of DFs. I hope they would be based on the newest DAC like 9038 with with well engineered-design. Maybe we will see 2.5mm balanced output )



Do you mind if I ask the source of this information?


----------



## RockStar2005

good sound said:


> Do you mind if I ask the source of this information?



Yeah I'd like to know too. So if anyone asks me how to improve their sound I can make sure I have the latest model info.


----------



## CactusPete23

Researcher said:


> I think it is about to be released new versions of DFs. I hope they would be based on the newest DAC like 9038 with with well engineered-design. Maybe we will see 2.5mm balanced output )



Think we'd have battery life suffer badly with an ES9038PRO in a Dragonfly...  They use 3X to 5X the power of the 9016 9018 type that are designed for "mobile" use.   

Think that power usage is another reason the dragonfly's don't go above 24/96...  Big goal for the current generation was low power usage.  If we want higher bit rates, and "pro" DAC's then the devices will need to be battery powered. (Or we'll need to add battery packs and cables that can be usb powered to go portable.)


----------



## RockStar2005

CactusPete23 said:


> Think we'd have battery life suffer badly with an ES9038PRO in a Dragonfly...  They use 3X to 5X the power of the 9016 9018 type that are designed for "mobile" use.
> 
> Think that power usage is another reason the dragonfly's don't go above 24/96...  Big goal for the current generation was low power usage.  If we want higher bit rates, and "pro" DAC's then the devices will need to be battery powered. (Or we'll need to add battery packs and cables that can be usb powered to go portable.)



True. Although with the newer Android phones that have the Snapdragon 845 chip, the increased efficiency has led to big jumps in battery life. Plus it seems like the average newer phone is getting a bigger battery too. Yeah screen sizes are increasing too, but I think the other 2 factors outweigh that.


----------



## Researcher

CactusPete23 said:


> Think we'd have battery life suffer badly with an ES9038PRO in a Dragonfly...  They use 3X to 5X the power of the 9016 9018 type that are designed for "mobile" use.
> 
> Think that power usage is another reason the dragonfly's don't go above 24/96...  Big goal for the current generation was low power usage.  If we want higher bit rates, and "pro" DAC's then the devices will need to be battery powered. (Or we'll need to add battery packs and cables that can be usb powered to go portable.)




AFAIK, engineers of DF would not consider to place `PRO` series ,which consume a lot more than desired to use by a phone, on  the board. Q2M or K2M is quite ok to go, instead. I think Next DFs will have such efficient DACs. BTW, i am really expecting 2.5mm balanced headphone jack, which is technically possible and truly distinctive.  Let s be honest, DFs, albeit so nice, are currently outdated and deserved to be updated.


----------



## good sound

Researcher said:


> AFAIK, engineers of DF would not consider to place `PRO` series ,which consume a lot more than desired to use by a phone, on  the board. Q2M or K2M is quite ok to go, instead. I think Next DFs will have such efficient DACs. BTW, i am really expecting 2.5mm balanced headphone jack, which is technically possible and truly distinctive.  Let s be honest, DFs, albeit so nice, are currently outdated and deserved to be updated.



I have to be honest, I don't understand this outdated comment. Are there other thumb drive based DAC/amps that have more features and better decoding for around the same money? Remember we need to compare apples to apples.


----------



## good sound (Apr 3, 2018)

Somewhat unrelated but I have noticed several online retailers are blowing out the Audioquest Nighthawk and Night owl Carbon headphones for between 40 to 50% off retail. Wonder what's up with that? Revamped headphone lineup coming from Audioquest soon?

Tried the non Carbon Nighthawks once and have to admit I was less than impressed by what I heard. Sounded very thick and slow and dark to me. The Nightowl Carbon at almost 50% off might be a good candidate to replace my beloved Oppo PM-3's. Would like to be able to listen to them first, but at the current sale price I should be able to recoup my entire investment or very close to it if I end up not liking them.


----------



## Researcher

good sound said:


> I have to be honest, I don't understand this outdated comment. Are there other thumb drive based DAC/amps that have more features and better decoding for around the same money? Remember we need to compare apples to apples.



Simply we wanna see better DFs then now. Although DFs are quite nice devices, they have some common problems. FE, If you use any iem with low ohm like below 16, you can feel an undesirable floor noise. See here;

https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones/comments/5ur00b/am_i_expecting_too_much_hissingnoise_from/

I am now enjoying Sabaj DA2 (69 USD), and would like to say the noise floor is better, and sounds really well. improving an existing product does not mean the product is bad. Overall, DFs are quite nice products. However, we should not forget DFR and DFB were released more than two years ago. Unlike us, Tech has so far been getting better and better.


----------



## Hifiearspeakers

Researcher said:


> Simply we wanna see better DFs then now. Although DFs are quite nice devices, they have some common problems. FE, If you use any iem with low ohm like below 16, you can feel an undesirable floor noise. See here;
> 
> https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones/comments/5ur00b/am_i_expecting_too_much_hissingnoise_from/
> 
> I am now enjoying Sabaj DA2 (69 USD), and would like to say the noise floor is better, and sounds really well. improving an existing product does not mean the product is bad. Overall, DFs are quite nice products. However, we should not forget DFR and DFB were released more than two years ago. Unlike us, Tech has so far been getting better and better.



If you’re IEM has below 16 OHM’s impedance, then a Dragonfly or any amp for that matter, is unnecessary.


----------



## CactusPete23

Hifiearspeakers said:


> If you’re IEM has below 16 OHM’s impedance, then a Dragonfly or any amp for that matter, is unnecessary.


What?   That makes no sense to me.   

The Dragonfly is a DAC and a Headphone Amp.  Both are needed to supply enough power for any Headphone or IEM.   Maybe the DFR is more powerful than needed, but you still need a DAC and an AMP in your device, or external.  The Dragonfly(Black or Red) has a better DAC than many devices This is why we use it. To get cleaner and better sound from a better DAC and Better Amp than our "non-audiophile" devices.    

I never hear hiss with a wide variety of IEMs and my DFR myself.  MAybe I'm not sensitive it it, or maybe my iems don't hiss like some iems do...


----------



## RockStar2005

CactusPete23 said:


> What?   That makes no sense to me.
> 
> The Dragonfly is a DAC and a Headphone Amp.  Both are needed to supply enough power for any Headphone or IEM.   Maybe the DFR is more powerful than needed, but you still need a DAC and an AMP in your device, or external.  The Dragonfly(Black or Red) has a better DAC than many devices This is why we use it. To get cleaner and better sound from a better DAC and Better Amp than our "non-audiophile" devices.
> 
> I never hear hiss with a wide variety of IEMs and my DFR myself.  MAybe I'm not sensitive it it, or maybe my iems don't hiss like some iems do...



Yeah I agree. Low impedance may mean an amp isn't necessary, but a *quality DAC *is ALWAYS a good idea. Most smartphones have crap quality DACs (and amps), with few exceptions. Those exceptions are growing, but the main players, Apple and Samsung, still are below par as far as I know. ESP Samsung, whose audio (and call) quality isn't even worth wiping my a$$ with. lol They have their AKG-tuned ear phones, but they need to work on improving their phones themselves. But will either? Prob not, b/c that would mean spending money on something they don't appear to believe is important. Well we do. So until they do, I'll never buy either, unless I have to, and then I will DEF buy a DFR to compensate.


----------



## Researcher (Apr 3, 2018)

Hifiearspeakers said:


> If you’re IEM has below 16 OHM’s impedance, then a Dragonfly or any amp for that matter, is unnecessary.



please read  CactusPete23`s and  *RockStar2005`*s comments.

I have just tasted it to make all words here in a right place. I used two different dacs and tried without a dac. Apple`s Dac sucks! Wait a sec, sucks more without DAC! but sounding better on DA2! The Dac chip tells not the whole sounding story, but gives us much info about what the whole system might sound like.


----------



## Montage

ScruffyDan said:


> I had a similar issue, but the update iOS 11.3 seems to have fixed it.


Thanks, I had given up on the DF Red. However, as you say, IOS 11.3, which was released on March 29th, seems to be working without dropouts. I've only used it for about one hour, so I'll see what longer term use reveals.


----------



## RockStar2005

ScruffyDan said:


> I had a similar issue, but the update iOS 11.3 seems to have fixed it.



It's good to know the new 11.3 update fixed the DFR issue then. When I had my S7 a couple years ago, a bug in the MicroUSB driver caused drop outs/skips like every 5 min whenever I connected my headphones to it via my old Oppo HA-2 amp/DAC. Used to drive me nuts! lol Only found out about bug months after I switched to a diff phone too. So this is great news actually for DFR fans!


----------



## meurglys0

My wife has an iphone 6 and sennheiser urbanites. Her major complaint is low volume levels she gets from this combo. She listens to classical music and they tend to be recorded at lower volumes. 
Anyway, I intend to get her a DFR because of its size and good sound quality. 
Would iphone 6 and urbanites match up nicely with DFR?
Specifically, would this setup provide better and louder sound than iphone 6 alone?
Thanks in advance for your replies.


----------



## ggeinec

It seems Audioquest recently quietly released firmware 1.07 for the DFR:

DragonFly Black/Red Firmware v1.07
▸ addresses the volume control issue found in Android devices

https://www.audioquest.com/page/aq-digitalupdates.html

I just updated my DFR. With my Motorola X Pure Edition running Nougat 7.0 and listening to music through Napster\Rhapsody (streaming and downloaded files) it definitely fixes the low volume issue. I was hoping it also fixed the infamous pops and clicks with Android devices but my limited testing so far doesn't sound good on that score.  I need to test more.

Give this new firmware a try and post back here results from your testing.


----------



## Researcher

ggeinec said:


> It seems Audioquest recently quietly released firmware 1.07 for the DFR:
> 
> DragonFly Black/Red Firmware v1.07
> ▸ addresses the volume control issue found in Android devices
> ...



still waiting for any update which will fix incredible high volume for windows computers


----------



## cathee

Researcher said:


> still waiting for any update which will fix incredible high volume for windows computers



+1


----------



## Chein

Yeah as of now the DFB and DFR are getting outdated by cheaper devices like the DA2 which comes close to the DFR soundwise (each have their own qualities) for 1/3 of the price. The only advantage the DFs have right now is their power efficiency. I really hope AQ started making new DFs with at least a Q2C or a 9218p. Combined with a power efficient USB interface chip and a better implementation than the cheap alternatives they would kill it again while drawing even less power than the DFB and R.


----------



## Bepli

ggeinec said:


> It seems Audioquest recently quietly released firmware 1.07 for the DFR:
> 
> DragonFly Black/Red Firmware v1.07
> ▸ addresses the volume control issue found in Android devices
> ...


Never had any pops or clicks :/


----------



## Researcher

Chein said:


> Yeah as of now the DFB and DFR are getting outdated by cheaper devices like the DA2 which comes close to the DFR soundwise (each have their own qualities) for 1/3 of the price. The only advantage the DFs have right now is their power efficiency. I really hope AQ started making new DFs with at least a Q2C or a 9218p. Combined with a power efficient USB interface chip and a better implementation than the cheap alternatives they would kill it again while drawing even less power than the DFB and R.



i am expecting an update by es9018 ( of audaphile serie), whose power consumption is still less than 100mW. On the other hand, absolutely no point to buy DFB at the moment as many cheaper  and better alternatives are available. It needs an update maybe by es9038kqm. I think we will see updated DFs in this summer.


----------



## RockStar2005

Researcher said:


> i am expecting an update by es9018 ( of audaphile serie), whose power consumption is still less than 100mW. On the other hand, absolutely no point to buy DFB at the moment as many cheaper  and better alternatives are available. It needs an update maybe by es9038kqm. I think we will see updated DFs in this summer.



If they do release new upgraded DFs and you find out about it, please let us know! Thanks.


----------



## RockStar2005

Chein said:


> Yeah as of now the DFB and DFR are getting outdated by cheaper devices like the DA2 which comes close to the DFR soundwise (each have their own qualities) for 1/3 of the price. The only advantage the DFs have right now is their power efficiency. I really hope AQ started making new DFs with at least a Q2C or a 9218p. Combined with a power efficient USB interface chip and a better implementation than the cheap alternatives they would kill it again while drawing even less power than the DFB and R.



Sabaj DA2? Interesting........good to know. Looks like it was just released in January too. 

Thanks!


----------



## Researcher

RockStar2005 said:


> Sabaj DA2? Interesting........good to know. Looks like it was just released in January too.
> 
> Thanks!



Sabaj DA2 is overall better than DFB. But, u should not expect any miracle like DFR.


----------



## RockStar2005 (Apr 7, 2018)

Researcher said:


> Sabaj DA2 is overall better than DFB. But, u should not expect any miracle like DFR.



That's basically what the Amazon user reviews said too about the DA2 vs. the DFB, but I appreciate the extra input. That is why I replaced the DFB with the DA2 on my Amazon wish list, which I constantly use as a reference to advise ppl who come to me asking for help in finding headphones and other audio-related devices, including (and mostly) ppl on here. The fact that it's cheaper than the DFB, has a stronger amp, and from what I've read is pretty energy efficient makes it the better amp/DAC option.

Yeah, I wasn't thinking it was better than the DFR though. But thanks. lol That is still on my list and isn't going anywhere UNLESS AQ upgrades it.


----------



## Peter_P

Hi all... First post. I recently bought a Dragonfly Red which is superb driving my Grado 325e. I'm also using it from the lightning port on my iPad running Synology's DS Audio (great little app) into an old Pioneer amp in my second system. Just wondering if there is any way to apply an adjustable EQ to the iPads lightning digital out? Probably a long shot but I figured there's no harm in asking...


----------



## balleklorin

I'm waiting for a DragonTail with USB-C. I saw it on AudioQuest's home page but now it's gone. Wonder why?
Only found this: https://www.futureshop.co.uk/audioquest-dragontail-usb-adaptor-for-android-devices-usb-c


----------



## ok3wire (Apr 8, 2018)

So for years now, my portable listening set up has been:

- the iPhone du jour (currently 6S Plus) playing Apple lossless CD downloads through iTunes 

- Cypher Labs Algorythym Solo-R DAC

- iQube amp

- Shure SE 535 IEMs

How would the DF Red compare to this combination in your estimation, using the same IEMs?  The size advantage is obvious, but I’m wondering how the audio quality would compare.  I typically travel with a backup battery, so the relative DF battery drain penalty isn’t a huge issue.

It’s also likely that I’ll upgrade to the next gen iPhone later this year, if that’s at all significant.


----------



## RockStar2005

balleklorin said:


> I'm waiting for a DragonTail with USB-C. I saw it on AudioQuest's home page but now it's gone. Wonder why?
> Only found this: https://www.futureshop.co.uk/audioquest-dragontail-usb-adaptor-for-android-devices-usb-c



You don't need it to be made by AudioQuest for it to work. It appears you're in the UK (I'm US), so just get this one. Not sure if the AQ one has OTG included, but this one DOES ftw!


----------



## balleklorin (Apr 8, 2018)

RockStar2005 said:


> You don't need it to be made by AudioQuest for it to work. It appears you're in the UK (I'm US), so just get this one. Not sure if the AQ one has OTG included, but this one DOES ftw!



I have working third part OTG cabel. Would luke to have one from AudioQuest


----------



## Researcher

ok3wire said:


> So for years now, my portable listening set up has been:
> 
> - the iPhone du jour (currently 6S Plus) playing Apple lossless CD downloads through iTunes
> 
> ...



I have a se535 brown. DFR offers wider sound stage, extra clarity to the iem. I think se535 can be better with a bassy dac. If you want bass, you can do a research on FIIO Q1 too , or wanna more detail and wider soundstage, go with DFR.  On the other hand, Sabaj DA2 is all-in-one at a moderate amount.


----------



## RockStar2005

balleklorin said:


> I have working third part OTG cabel. Would luke to have one from AudioQuest



Oh ok. Well if they never make any more, at least you have yours, and the one I linked can be "Plan B" if you wish.


----------



## ok3wire

ok3wire said:


> So for years now, my portable listening set up has been:
> 
> - the iPhone du jour (currently 6S Plus) playing Apple lossless CD downloads through iTunes
> 
> ...





Researcher said:


> I have a se535 brown. DFR offers wider sound stage, extra clarity to the iem. I think se535 can be better with a bassy dac. If you want bass, you can do a research on FIIO Q1 too , or wanna more detail and wider soundstage, go with DFR.  On the other hand, Sabaj DA2 is all-in-one at a moderate amount.



Thanks for the response, Researcher.  Just to be clear though, are you simply pointing out the general characteristics of the DF Red, or are you making a direct comparison to my current set up and outlining the areas in which you think the DF Red may be superior?


----------



## Researcher

ok3wire said:


> Thanks for the response, Researcher.  Just to be clear though, are you simply pointing out the general characteristics of the DF Red, or are you making a direct comparison to my current set up and outlining the areas in which you think the DF Red may be superior?



Nope, all i said is for SE535 and DFR. DFR seems to make the iem `s sound a bit brighter. You know SE535  also sounds a bit bright. That's why, I personally prefer to DA2 along with SE535, which sounds better when it comes to bass, treble. DFR and DA2 OFFERS absolutely more clarity, separation, no hiss  "dead silence"  when you are with SE535. 

BTW, do not forget. SE535 is not a far-east product. It is already an amazing iem. You will get only %10-20 better sound overall.


----------



## mister2d

RockStar2005 said:


> ...The fact that it's cheaper than the DFB, has a stronger amp, and from what I've read is pretty energy efficient makes it the better amp/DAC option...



In my experience, what's makes one DAC better than another is the simple fact that it sounds better. Energy draw, and stronger amps have nothing to do with it.


----------



## RockStar2005

mister2d said:


> In my experience, what's makes one DAC better than another is the simple fact that it sounds better. Energy draw, and stronger amps have nothing to do with it.



I wasn't implying it does the energy efficiency factor would, but the amp does to a certain but still significant extent. Having a weak amp would suck when you're listening to like Hi-Res tracks that were mastered (or remastered) at lower volumes *on purpose* in order to give the listener the ability and the option to turn the volume up w/o it becoming overbearing or sounding "brickwalled" the way it does with many mp3s and even some CDs. I have many Hi-Res albums that were remastered that way and without a solid amp, I wouldn't be able to actually notice all the many improvements a good strong DAC would be making in the first place.


----------



## Colors

I can confirm DFR adds soundstage, warmth and detail in all the IEMs I've tried.

Combined with Jitterbug, precision and detail skyrockets.

Jitterbug + DFR + ER4XR is a pleasure to listen to if you like precision and pace.


----------



## Quequacio96

Hi guys, I'm considering buying a dac to use with sennheiser mometum in ear, fiio fh1, rha t20. I'm evaluating the dragonfly black (would be used with android, one plus 3) is compatible with Spotify and tidal fon? Is there a type c USB cable? According to you is a good purchase or is this better than this? (reject the fiio Q1 that has problems with type c) (Fiio BTR1 ??)


----------



## RockStar2005 (Apr 13, 2018)

Quequacio96 said:


> Hi guys, I'm considering buying a dac to use with sennheiser mometum in ear, fiio fh1, rha t20. I'm evaluating the dragonfly black (would be used with android, one plus 3) is compatible with Spotify and tidal fon? Is there a type c USB cable? According to you is a good purchase or is this better than this? (reject the fiio Q1 that has problems with type c) (Fiio BTR1 ??)



Hi Que,

I've tried the Black and it was really good. In order to connect it to your OnePlus 3, yes you will need a female USB to male MicroUSB-C adapter cable. Being that you're in Italy, you would want to buy THIS one from Amazon Italy. And yes, it, like any other external amp/DAC, will work with Spotify and Tidal as well.

Also, there has been some talk lately in this thread about the Sabaj DA2, which some say is as good if not better than the Black, cheaper, and gets louder too. It too is small and portable. One user review from the October 2017 on the U.S. Amazon site says it doesn't come with the necessary MicroUSB to MicroUSB-C adapter cable, while a February 2018 user review says it does come with one, so not sure. I guess if you choose to order this over the Black, if the DA2 arrives with no cable, then just buy here from Amazon Italy. At this point, I'd prob choose this over the Black b/c of the louder volume and many reviews comparing it favorably against the Black, as well as the cheaper price. But I'd still prefer the Red over both.

Hope this helped! Good luck, and let us know what you end up buying.


----------



## Quequacio96

RockStar2005 said:


> Hi Que,
> 
> I've tried the Black and it was really good. In order to connect it to your OnePlus 3, yes you will need a female USB to male MicroUSB-C adapter cable. Being that you're in Italy, you would want to buy THIS one from Amazon Italy. And yes, it, like any other external amp/DAC, will work with Spotify and Tidal as well.
> 
> ...


Hello, thank you you were very kind and precise. I took a look and found the da2 to 60 and the da3 to 90 ... I could take the 3 if it was worth it. What is very important to me is that I would like to be sure of the compatibility with type c and not have any hiccups or problems with apps like tidal for example. (I had a bad experience with topping nx 2 that caused me a lot of rustles and fiio Q1 but I had to expect it not being declared compatible with android)
The red unfortunately costs too much for my finances, I would try to take a headset that intrigues me for a long time: hifiman re-400 (from what I read is very neutral and has a reproduction of the record middleweight .. We'll see)
Sorry for this endless message

https://www.amazon.it/dp/B073SSNMKK/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_16s0Ab9M1KFES
https://www.amazon.it/dp/B0719FMRKH/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_Vat0Ab84J33FM
https://www.amazon.it/dp/B01DP5JHHI/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_Nbt0Ab5QWQDN9


----------



## Researcher

Quequacio96 said:


> Hello, thank you you were very kind and precise. I took a look and found the da2 to 60 and the da3 to 90 ... I could take the 3 if it was worth it. What is very important to me is that I would like to be sure of the compatibility with type c and not have any hiccups or problems with apps like tidal for example. (I had a bad experience with topping nx 2 that caused me a lot of rustles and fiio Q1 but I had to expect it not being declared compatible with android)
> The red unfortunately costs too much for my finances, I would try to take a headset that intrigues me for a long time: hifiman re-400 (from what I read is very neutral and has a reproduction of the record middleweight .. We'll see)
> Sorry for this endless message
> 
> ...



I had Q1 M2, DFB and DA2, and now have DFR.  i can say DFR seems to be the best one. DA2 is the second one. Do not even consider to buy the rest. DFB and Q1 are away lagging behind DA2 and DFR. Actually, i really like the way of DA2`s sounding; wide soundstage, thick drums, nice female vocal etc.  DA3 will likely be better due to dual dac and the other things. However, i never had a try it. 

BTW, i also have Shure 535-V and Ti Audio T2.


----------



## Researcher

Colors said:


> I can confirm DFR adds soundstage, warmth and detail in all the IEMs I've tried.
> 
> Combined with Jitterbug, precision and detail skyrockets.
> 
> Jitterbug + DFR + ER4XR is a pleasure to listen to if you like precision and pace.



Hi, never tried Jitterbug. Can you give us more detail about it like comparing with /without?


----------



## Quequacio96 (Apr 13, 2018)

Researcher said:


> I had Q1 M2, DFB and DA2, and now have DFR.  i can say DFR seems to be the best one. DA2 is the second one. Do not even consider to buy the rest. DFB and Q1 are away lagging behind DA2 and DFR. Actually, i really like the way of DA2`s sounding; wide soundstage, thick drums, nice female vocal etc.  DA3 will likely be better due to dual dac and the other things. However, i never had a try it.
> 
> BTW, i also have Shure 535-V and Ti Audio T2.


thanks for the answer, at this point I choose between DA2 or DA3, these dac do not have an internal battery so they take current from the mobile right? You've got to try them with android and type c, all smooth?  do they consume a lot of phone power?


----------



## Researcher

Quequacio96 said:


> thanks for the answer, at this point I choose between DA2 or DA3, these dac do not have an internal battery so they take current from the mobile right? You've got to try them with android and type c, all smooth?  do they consume a lot of phone power?



When it comes to battery consumption,  DA2 is awesome, was marginally more power hungry than apple dongle. It is highly likely to see the similar experience through your phone. DA2 provides type C cable too. If you listen music mostly on Computer, DA3 can be option to you ( i assume it is better).Portability is not an issue,and then nothing wrong with DA3 or even NX4 DSD.  They are really not overpriced DACs. U will get much more than paid.


----------



## RockStar2005

Researcher said:


> When it comes to battery consumption,  DA2 is awesome, was marginally more power hungry than apple dongle. It is highly likely to see the similar experience through your phone. DA2 provides type C cable too. If you listen music mostly on Computer, DA3 can be option to you ( i assume it is better).Portability is not an issue,and then nothing wrong with DA3 or even NX4 DSD.  They are really not overpriced DACs. U will get much more than paid.



Great info! Ok so DA2 now DOES come with the cable. Nice!

I was gonna suggest DA3 but it didn't look as portable. I assume the DA3 also comes with the cable too??


----------



## RockStar2005

Quequacio96 said:


> Hello, thank you you were very kind and precise. I took a look and found the da2 to 60 and the da3 to 90 ... I could take the 3 if it was worth it. What is very important to me is that I would like to be sure of the compatibility with type c and not have any hiccups or problems with apps like tidal for example. (I had a bad experience with topping nx 2 that caused me a lot of rustles and fiio Q1 but I had to expect it not being declared compatible with android)
> The red unfortunately costs too much for my finances, I would try to take a headset that intrigues me for a long time: hifiman re-400 (from what I read is very neutral and has a reproduction of the record middleweight .. We'll see)
> Sorry for this endless message
> 
> ...



You are welcome Que!

Yeah just buy the DA3 then if not too much. I assume like the DA2 it comes with the right cable, but if not, just look on Amazon Italy for it. 

Let us know what you think after!


----------



## Colors

Researcher said:


> Hi, never tried Jitterbug. Can you give us more detail about it like comparing with /without?



Better separation of instruments and frequencies (less overlap) and faster decay (things sound tighter and faster). I'd describe it as turning up the brightness on your smartphone screen and being able see more detail and read faster.


----------



## Researcher

RockStar2005 said:


> Great info! Ok so DA2 now DOES come with the cable. Nice!
> 
> I was gonna suggest DA3 but it didn't look as portable. I assume the DA3 also comes with the cable too??



There was 3 cables, including micro-USB to type C, micro Usb and USB, in the box. DA3 seems to be under 50 g. I think the weight is still good considering it has Dual Dac and Led screen. Before i ordered DFR, i thought alot to buy DA3. I am still wondering about how well it is sounding.


----------



## Researcher

Colors said:


> Better separation of instruments and frequencies (less overlap) and faster decay (things sound tighter and faster). I'd describe it as turning up the brightness on your smartphone screen and being able see more detail and read faster.



 yea I see. thanks for sharing your info. If you do not mind, can you also describe any improvement on high and low frequencies rather than mid? My shure 535 lacks a bit of them, but no problem with mids at all.


----------



## RockStar2005

Researcher said:


> There was 3 cables, including micro-USB to type C, micro Usb and USB, in the box. DA3 seems to be under 50 g. I think the weight is still good considering it has Dual Dac and Led screen. Before i ordered DFR, i thought alot to buy DA3. I am still wondering about how well it is sounding.



Ok....... that's awesome that Sabaj includes all those as well as the other advantages it offers. Sounds like a true winner to me! 

Well I wish you'd bought both and compared! lol For now I'll assume DFR is still better than the DA3 I guess. Still on the fence about the DA3's size though.


----------



## Colors

Researcher said:


> yea I see. thanks for sharing your info. If you do not mind, can you also describe any improvement on high and low frequencies rather than mid? My shure 535 lacks a bit of them, but no problem with mids at all.



If that's the case, I would actually just stick with the DFR! I find the Jitterbug lowers the bass presence and extends the treble. I actually prefer my RE-400 and DUNU DN-2000 without the Jitterbug as it reduces the bass. My ER4XR sound perfect with it as it has a strong bass to begin with. 

DFR + Shure SE535 might sound pretty good already. 

I'm actually getting the SE425 soon. Any thoughts on the SE535?


----------



## Quequacio96

RockStar2005 said:


> Ok....... that's awesome that Sabaj includes all those as well as the other advantages it offers. Sounds like a true winner to me!
> 
> Well I wish you'd bought both and compared! lol For now I'll assume DFR is still better than the DA3 I guess. Still on the fence about the DA3's size though.


Probably the da3 consumes a little more battery I assume. Also because of the screen and the double dac. I read some reviews around and then I order from Amazon Italy, I'll write then after testing it


----------



## RockStar2005

Quequacio96 said:


> Probably the da3 consumes a little more battery I assume. Also because of the screen and the double dac. I read some reviews around and then I order from Amazon Italy, I'll write then after testing it



Wait, did you already order the DA3 or do you want to read more reviews first before deciding?

Hey Researcher, does the DFR have a double DAC too like the DA3 or no?


----------



## Researcher (Apr 13, 2018)

Colors said:


> If that's the case, I would actually just stick with the DFR! I find the Jitterbug lowers the bass presence and extends the treble. I actually prefer my RE-400 and DUNU DN-2000 without the Jitterbug as it reduces the bass. My ER4XR sound perfect with it as it has a strong bass to begin with.
> 
> DFR + Shure SE535 might sound pretty good already.
> 
> I'm actually getting the SE425 soon. Any thoughts on the SE535?



if you would like to hear mids, it is lovely iem. It shines with Hip-hop, jazz, pop, country music or any mid oriented music (it is really good at those kinds of musics, seriously no joke here). I think SE425 or SE535 could be a great compliment to the set-up u have already had.  The most exciting side of the iem is you are not completely tired of listening music (maybe due to lack of bass).


----------



## Colors

Researcher said:


> if you would like to hear mids, it is lovely iem. It shines with Hip-hop, jazz, pop, country music or any mid oriented music (it is really good at those kinds of musics, seriously no joke here). I think SE425 or SE535 could be a great compliment to the set-up u have already have.  The most exciting side of the iem is you are not trying of listening music (maybe due to lack of bass).



Yeah I'm currently lacking a mid-focused IEM so I'll probably get them. I demo'd the 425 in-store and immediately liked the sound signature. Very smooth vocals and they sound kind of spacious too. Easy on the ears.


----------



## Researcher

RockStar2005 said:


> Wait, did you already order the DA3 or do you want to read more reviews first before deciding?
> 
> Hey Researcher, does the DFR have a double DAC too like the DA3 or no?



Nope, unfortunately. It has just a single ES9016, which is not bad at all. The DAC itself is at Audiophile level, but is outdated by ES9018.


----------



## RockStar2005 (Apr 13, 2018)

Researcher said:


> Nope, unfortunately. It has just a single ES9016, which is not bad at all. The DAC itself is at Audiophile level, but is outdated by ES9018.



I see. And the DA2 and DA3 both appear to have the ES9018 too. So now I am even more curious as to whether the DA3 might be as good or better than the DFR? lol Though of course I know a device's amp & DAC "setup" are very important too, not JUST the DAC quality. So maybe not?

What about this device, the NextDrive Spectra? Looks interesting. Nice sleek design as well. It too has the ES9018, and seems to have a pretty strong amp, though not sure if as strong as the DA2's & DA3's? Anyone ever try it out?? (I guess there's MicroUSB (not USB-C) version too ((see pics)), but only available on the main site, not Amazon.)


----------



## Quequacio96

RockStar2005 said:


> Wait, did you already order the DA3 or do you want to read more reviews first before deciding?
> 
> Hey Researcher, does the DFR have a double DAC too like the DA3 or no?


I read some reviews and after order. occasionally I use the translator as help. The da3 also has balanced output, which does not have the da2. And the balanced output has more power if needed.


----------



## Chein

Well the 9016 is a 8 channels DAC as compared to the 2 channels 9018, the 9016 wasn't supposed to be used for headphones first but AQ made a good implementation to make them sound great in a stereo configuration. That's why I'm curious to see how well they'd do with new chips. The DA3 sounds better to me than the DFR but it's also less ergonomic for portable usage. I'd say though the DFR sounds warmer when the DA3 sounds clearer overall, has a wider soundstage with more resolution in the bass, cleaner mids and airier treble without having that infamous Sabre glare that is pretty annoying in most cheap implementations. The only thing I'd reproach to the DA3 is the soundstage given isn't as deep as (more expensive) desktop DACs 

I couldn't compare the DA2 to the Red since I don't have the DA2 myself but people are positive the DA2 is way better than the Black for cheaper (just see the measurement comparison if you don't believe in subjective judgements) and I assume it is closer to the Red as far as sound quality is concerned, but of course I'm still just assuming. Just waiting for a move from AQ to blow away the competition with new Dragonflies


----------



## Researcher (Apr 14, 2018)

Chein said:


> Well the 9016 is a 8 channels DAC as compared to the 2 channels 9018, the 9016 wasn't supposed to be used for headphones first but AQ made a good implementation to make them sound great in a stereo configuration. That's why I'm curious to see how well they'd do with new chips. The DA3 sounds better to me than the DFR but it's also less ergonomic for portable usage. I'd say though the DFR sounds warmer when the DA3 sounds clearer overall, has a wider soundstage with more resolution in the bass, cleaner mids and airier treble without having that infamous Sabre glare that is pretty annoying in most cheap implementations. The only thing I'd reproach to the DA3 is the soundstage given isn't as deep as (more expensive) desktop DACs
> 
> I couldn't compare the DA2 to the Red since I don't have the DA2 myself but people are positive the DA2 is way better than the Black for cheaper (just see the measurement comparison if you don't believe in subjective judgements) and I assume it is closer to the Red as far as sound quality is concerned, but of course I'm still just assuming. Just waiting for a move from AQ to blow away the competition with new Dragonflies



I believe AQ will release new version of DFs in this summer, as competition is quite tough at the moment. DFB really sounds so cheap, compared to DA2.  No point to buy a DFB .  If  SABAJ implements es9018 with 8 channels into USB DAC for around 100usd before AQ, i believe the drogon`s kingdom will be destroyed.


----------



## RockStar2005

Quequacio96 said:


> I read some reviews and after order. occasionally I use the translator as help. The da3 also has balanced output, which does not have the da2. And the balanced output has more power if needed.



Ahh ok. Great!! Then yes, keep us all posted after you've had a chance to try out the DA3! 

Oh, I didn't know the DA3 also had a balanced output option. Very nice!! I'd be interested in doing a balanced output connection, but my Bowers & Wilkins P7 headphones have a special connection to the headphones themselves, and I don't know if any balanced cables that exist would work. B&W don't make a balanced cable either, so I don't know.


----------



## Quequacio96

I decided, Monday I order DA3 from Amazon Italy and the Hifiman RE-400 total cost € 160 there can be in my opinion. (I already have a micro usb cable to Type c so I should not have any problems of any kind)


----------



## RockStar2005 (Apr 14, 2018)

Chein said:


> Well the 9016 is a 8 channels DAC as compared to the 2 channels 9018, the 9016 wasn't supposed to be used for headphones first but AQ made a good implementation to make them sound great in a stereo configuration. That's why I'm curious to see how well they'd do with new chips. The DA3 sounds better to me than the DFR but it's also less ergonomic for portable usage. I'd say though the DFR sounds warmer when the DA3 sounds clearer overall, has a wider soundstage with more resolution in the bass, cleaner mids and airier treble without having that infamous Sabre glare that is pretty annoying in most cheap implementations. The only thing I'd reproach to the DA3 is the soundstage given isn't as deep as (more expensive) desktop DACs
> 
> I couldn't compare the DA2 to the Red since I don't have the DA2 myself but people are positive the DA2 is way better than the Black for cheaper (just see the measurement comparison if you don't believe in subjective judgements) and I assume it is closer to the Red as far as sound quality is concerned, but of course I'm still just assuming. Just waiting for a move from AQ to blow away the competition with new Dragonflies



Interesting post Chein. Yeah I too feel like the DA3 isn't as ergonomic & portable as the DFR. But maybe it looks smaller in person than it does in pics??

Yeah being that the DA3 has DUAL 9018 DACs, I could see it perhaps outdoing the DFR, but again, I know from experience that device setup/implementation makes up the support system that can make a great DAC sound incredible, or just "really good".

Well ok, it sounds like you've tried both and yeah the DA3 is better, but the portability isn't as good. Ughh!! But the fact that it's cheaper by like $100 is definitely a strong factor in the DA3's favor.

Well, I mean, is it really fair to compare the DA3 to more expensive DESKTOP DACs though? lol The fact that it outdoes the DFR AND is $100 LESS is really enough for me. lol

Yeah several ppl on here and on U.S. Amazon have claimed the DA2 either sounds as good or better than the DFB, so I'm convinced there. I've already added the DA2 to my "running list" on Amazon, and removed the DFB. I think I will add the DA3 now as well after reading your very informative post! 

Yeah, until AQ releases something new, I will prob just recommend the Sabaj amp/DACs in the mean time.

Thanks so much Chein!!


----------



## RockStar2005

Researcher said:


> I believe AQ will release new version of DFs in this summer, as competition is quite tough at the moment. DFB really sounds so cheap, compared to DA2.  No point to buy a DFB .  If  SABAJ implements es9018 with 8 channels into USB DAC for around 100usd before AQ, i believe the drogon`s kingdom will be destroyed.



I hope so too Researcher! They need to compete as they are already falling behind from what I've read in the last few pages of this thread. 

Plus the DA2 has on-board volume control, which I'm sure some ppl would prefer. 

Dragon's kingdom destroyed..................lol


----------



## RockStar2005

What's interesting too is that, according to U.S. Amazon (which may not be accurate, but prob is in this case), the DFR itself (not shipping weight) weighs 3.52 ounces, where the DA3 weighs only 1.44 ounces! And the DA3 is longer than the DFR, but narrower & thinner per the listed dimensions. So even though the DA3 SEEMS bigger, it kinda isn't, and it WEIGHS LESS than the DFR. Just something to keep in mind. This actually means the DA3 is more portable than we seemed to have perceived just from looking at its pictures.


----------



## Quequacio96 (Apr 14, 2018)

RockStar2005 said:


> What's interesting too is that, according to U.S. Amazon (which may not be accurate, but prob is in this case), the DFR itself (not shipping weight) weighs 3.52 ounces, where the DA3 weighs only 1.44 ounces! And the DA3 is longer than the DFR, but narrower & thinner per the listed dimensions. So even though the DA3 SEEMS bigger, it kinda isn't, and it WEIGHS LESS than the DFR. Just something to keep in mind. This actually means the DA3 is more portable than we seemed to have perceived just from looking at its pictures.



edit.
 DA3 --->1.3cm (h) x 4.2cm (w) x 9.4cm (l)     64gr


DFR---> 1.2cm (h) x 1.9cm (w) x 6.2cm (l)

according to Amazon Italian are the dimensions and weight (unit of measurement centimeters and grams)


----------



## Researcher

RockStar2005 said:


> What's interesting too is that, according to U.S. Amazon (which may not be accurate, but prob is in this case), the DFR itself (not shipping weight) weighs 3.52 ounces, where the DA3 weighs only 1.44 ounces! And the DA3 is longer than the DFR, but narrower & thinner per the listed dimensions. So even though the DA3 SEEMS bigger, it kinda isn't, and it WEIGHS LESS than the DFR. Just something to keep in mind. This actually means the DA3 is more portable than we seemed to have perceived just from looking at its pictures.



here we go; http://www.sabaj.com.cn/en/productshow.asp?id=74

I once read it to be around 48 gr.  not bad at all.


----------



## RockStar2005

Quequacio96 said:


> DA3 ---> 13,4 x 1,9 x 2,4 cm. 40.8 g
> 
> DFR---> 6 x 2 x 3 cm  99.8g
> 
> according to Amazon Italian are the dimensions and weight (unit of measurement centimeters and grams)



Very good! Thanks for checking on that Que! 

Yes, this seems to match up with what the U.S. Amazon site says too! So to me, especially in terms of weight, I would now deem the DA3 as the more portable device vs. the DFR. I'll still keep the DFR on my list for now, but I will be recommending the DA3 over it to people. If they still feel the DA3 is too big size-wize, than I'll recommend the DFR. But after Chein's very informative post, it's really hard to argue for the DFR unless/until AQ releases an upgraded version.


----------



## Researcher

Quequacio96 said:


> DA3 ---> 13,4 x 1,9 x 2,4 cm. 40.8 g
> 
> DFR---> 6 x 2 x 3 cm  99.8g
> 
> according to Amazon Italian are the dimensions and weight (unit of measurement centimeters and grams)



absolutely not agree with your statement. DFR is not that much heavy !! must be around 20 - 25g. Moreover, DA3 must not be  that much long.


----------



## Quequacio96

RockStar2005 said:


> Very good! Thanks for checking on that Que!
> 
> Yes, this seems to match up with what the U.S. Amazon site says too! So to me, especially in terms of weight, I would now deem the DA3 as the more portable device vs. the DFR. I'll still keep the DFR on my list for now, but I will be recommending the DA3 over it to people. If they still feel the DA3 is too big size-wize, than I'll recommend the DFR. But after Chein's very informative post, it's really hard to argue for the DFR unless/until AQ releases an upgraded version.



sorry there were mistakes, I edited. I took the info directly from the official websites of the 2 products


----------



## RockStar2005

Researcher said:


> here we go; http://www.sabaj.com.cn/en/productshow.asp?id=74
> 
> I once read it to be around 48 gr.  not bad at all.



Ok. Even 48 g is still much less than the DFR's 99.8 g. 

I see in the pics for the DA3 Researcher that the only included cable is the USB-A to USB-C one. There isn't a MicroUSB to MicroUSB (or MicroUSB-C??) one? Does the DA3 connect using the MicroUSB or MicroUSB-C?? I guess one would have to buy a MicroUSB to MicroUSB-C (or to MicroUSB???) cable then?? Or did they just get lazy with the pictures?? lol


----------



## Quequacio96

Researcher said:


> absolutely not agree with your statement. DFR is not that much heavy !! must be around 20 - 25g. Moreover, DA3 must not be  that much long.



I modified, I was wrong sorry


----------



## RockStar2005

Researcher said:


> absolutely not agree with your statement. DFR is not that much heavy !! must be around 20 - 25g. Moreover, DA3 must not be  that much long.



Wait, what?! I'm so confused.


----------



## Colors

Quequacio96 said:


> I decided, Monday I order DA3 from Amazon Italy and the Hifiman RE-400 total cost € 160 there can be in my opinion. (I already have a micro usb cable to Type c so I should not have any problems of any kind)



Congratulations. The RE-400 is a great earphone.


----------



## RockStar2005

Oh by the way, I'm going to the Axpona Audio Audio Expo later today. It's at the Marriott Renaissance Hotel only 10 minutes away from where I live (Chicago area). AQ will be there too (see list in link)! Can't wait!

Maybe I'll ask AQ if and when then DFB & DFR will get upgraded? If I do and get good info, I'll make sure to post it here later tonight or tomorrow.   lol


----------



## Quequacio96

DA3 weight:64 gr
DFR weight: ?? 

to remove any doubt these are the correct dimensions (I hope you see the pictures)


----------



## Researcher

the weight of DFR is 22gr.

https://www.stereophile.com/content...ck-usb-da-headphone-amplifiers-specifications

DA3 must be comin with 3 different kinds of cable as DA2 BTW.


----------



## Researcher

RockStar2005 said:


> Oh by the way, I'm going to the Axpona Audio Audio Expo later today. It's at the Marriott Renaissance Hotel only 10 minutes away from where I live (Chicago area). AQ will be there too (see list in link)! Can't wait!
> 
> Maybe I'll ask AQ if and when then DFB & DFR will get upgraded? If I do and get good info, I'll make sure to post it here later tonight or tomorrow.   lol



3 hours away from me by Peoria Charter then, lol


----------



## RockStar2005

Researcher said:


> the weight of DFR is 22gr.
> 
> https://www.stereophile.com/content...ck-usb-da-headphone-amplifiers-specifications
> 
> DA3 must be comin with 3 different kinds of cable as DA2 BTW.



Oh ok. So the DA3 still weighs a bit more (though not by much) at 40 or 48 g.

I hope so. Just wish Sabaj had pictured the other cables too. 

Hey Que, when you get the DA3, let us know exactly what cables it comes with. Or Chein, if you can, please let us know too.


----------



## RockStar2005

Researcher said:


> 3 hours away from me by Peoria Charter then, lol



Oh you're in Peoria?! Nice! I used to date a girl who I believe was from East Peoria. 

So are you going?


----------



## Quequacio96

RockStar2005 said:


> Oh ok. So the DA3 still weighs a bit more (though not by much) at 40 or 48 g.
> 
> I hope so. Just wish Sabaj had pictured the other cables too.
> 
> Hey Que, when you get the DA3, let us know exactly what cables it comes with. Or Chein, if you can, please let us know too.


sure, then I send you all the photos and my impressions
I almost order it now and it should arrive on 18/04. The monkey has left


----------



## RockStar2005

Quequacio96 said:


> [QUOTE = "Colori, post: 14173742, membro: 493059"] Complimenti. L'RE-400 è un ottimo auricolare. [/ QUOTE]
> 
> sure, then I send you all the photos and my impressions
> I almost order it now and it should arrive on 18/04. The monkey has left



Ok Que! Fantastic!!


----------



## Researcher

RockStar2005 said:


> Oh you're in Peoria?! Nice! I used to date a girl who I believe was from East Peoria.
> 
> So are you going?



No way, things to do here..  if you go, please let us know and ask them if new DFs will be released soon.


----------



## VRacer-111




----------



## RockStar2005

Researcher said:


> No way, things to do here..  if you go, please let us know and ask them if new DFs will be released soon.



I am def going, and I will def ask. Hopefully I get something better than "I don't know". lol


----------



## Researcher

VRacer-111 said:


>




It will be around 22gr along with the cap.


----------



## RockStar2005

VRacer-111 said:


>



VRacer-111 ftw! lol


----------



## Researcher

Quequacio96 said:


> edit.
> DA3 --->1.3cm (h) x 4.2cm (w) x 9.4cm (l)     64gr
> 
> 
> ...




https://www.amazon.com/Sabaj-Headphone-Amplifier-Amplifiers-Resolution/dp/B073SSNMKK

DA3 IS ONLY 40.8gr which is equivalent to 1.44 ounces.


----------



## RockStar2005

Researcher said:


> https://www.amazon.com/Sabaj-Headphone-Amplifier-Amplifiers-Resolution/dp/B073SSNMKK
> 
> DA3 IS ONLY 40.8gr which is equivalent to 1.44 ounces.



Ok. So only 15 grams bigger than the DFR.


----------



## meurglys0

I'm about to pull the trigger on DFR for my wife. A few questions at the final minute:

1. How does DFR get along with Sennheiser headphones? My wife has an Urbanite XL; I guess all Sennheisers share a dark sound signature. I guess DFR, which apparently has a slightly bright sound, sould make the Sennheiser sound a bit less dark and more detailed?... Would owners of a similar combo confirm all this?

2. I've read complaints by certain Android users that the volume level of DFR is so high that they couldn't tun it higher than 1 -the lowest value on the volume bar. Is this also true for Iphones? My wife has an Iphone 6. 

Thanks in advance for your help.


----------



## Quequacio96

Researcher said:


> https://www.amazon.com/Sabaj-Headphone-Amplifier-Amplifiers-Resolution/dp/B073SSNMKK
> 
> DA3 IS ONLY 40.8gr which is equivalent to 1.44 ounces.


Are you sure? If you look at the third photo of this link there are the dimensions and weight, here it is written 64gr
Sabaj Amplificatore per Cuffie DA3 Portable USB DAC SABRE9018Q2C OLED Schermo Grigio https://www.amazon.it/dp/B073SSNMKK/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_B1J0AbZPVCRMJ


----------



## VRacer-111

Researcher said:


> It will be around 22gr along with the cap.









yep... ~22.077g, but kind of hard to use with the cap on...

And just for completeness sake...


----------



## Researcher

VRacer-111 said:


> yep... ~22.077g, but kind of hard to use with the cap on...
> 
> And just for completeness sake...


 
Hello world! is it possible to like many times to this post? What! lol


----------



## Researcher

Quequacio96 said:


> Are you sure? If you look at the third photo of this link there are the dimensions and weight, here it is written 64gr
> Sabaj Amplificatore per Cuffie DA3 Portable USB DAC SABRE9018Q2C OLED Schermo Grigio https://www.amazon.it/dp/B073SSNMKK/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_B1J0AbZPVCRMJ



i think it is typo. must be around 40gr. its item package could be as heavy as 64gr.


----------



## meurglys0

Do I need to downconvert a 24bit 192 khz file to 24bit 96khz before feeding it to DFR from my Iphone or does it do it on the fly?


----------



## Quequacio96

I'm watching videos of the DA3 the output port is micro usb? I do not think so


----------



## RockStar2005

Quequacio96 said:


> I'm watching videos of the DA3 the output port is micro usb? I do not think so



Well what is it then? Pics show a smaller port. Either MicroUSB or MicroUSB-C. Which is it Que??


----------



## Quequacio96

RockStar2005 said:


> Well what is it then? Pics show a smaller port. Either MicroUSB or MicroUSB-C. Which is it Que??


It's a type-c port I got the confirmation from an answer to the questions that you can do on amazon.com. I need to get a type-c to type-c, possibly a course.


----------



## RockStar2005

Quequacio96 said:


> It's a type-c port I got the confirmation from an answer to the questions that you can do on amazon.com. I need to get a type-c to type-c, possibly a course.



Ok. Well there we go then! Type-C to Type-C it is! 

Great work Que!!!


----------



## Quequacio96 (Apr 14, 2018)

RockStar2005 said:


> Ok. Well there we go then! Type-C to Type-C it is!
> 
> Great work Que!!!



I can not find a cable of that kind of length of 10 cm, I find them all longer. This could be a problem.

edit.
I only found this but from aliexpress I have to wait 40 days !!
https://it.aliexpress.com/item/Moma...7d7d-46a1-918e-3c73e434cf7c&priceBeautifyAB=0


----------



## RockStar2005

Quequacio96 said:


> I can not find a cable of that kind of length of 10 cm, I find them all longer. This could be a problem.
> 
> edit.
> I only found this but from aliexpress I have to wait 40 days !!
> https://it.aliexpress.com/item/Moma...7d7d-46a1-918e-3c73e434cf7c&priceBeautifyAB=0



Yeah I couldn't either at first, but then I found a couple on U.S. Amazon, like this one. 

Oh nice!


----------



## RockStar2005 (Apr 28, 2018)

Researcher said:


> No way, things to do here..  if you go, please let us know and ask them if new DFs will be released soon.



Guy at the AQ stand at AXPONA said he's heard NOTHING about any upgrade to the DFB/DFR. He said there may be more firmware updates, but cuz he's Sales he said they wouldn't find out until maybe right before we would. Based on that response, I wouldn't hold my breath guys. lol

So for the time being, I'd still recommend the DA2 over the DFB and the DA3 (or BETTER YET the SMSL IQ) over the DFR (or DFB).


----------



## Colors

Should I update to 1.07? I think mine is still 1.06 when I bought it.


----------



## Quequacio96

RockStar2005 said:


> Guy at the AQ stand at AXPONA said he's heard NOTHING about any upgrade to the DFB/DFR. He said there may be more firmware updates, but cuz he's Sales he said they wouldn't find out until maybe right before we would. Based on that response, I wouldn't hold my breath guys. lol
> 
> So for the time being, I'd still recommend the DA2 over the DFB and the DA3 over the DFR (or DFB).


This is what Sabaj wrote about it.

"Hello, dear friend We do not recommend the use of the DA3 mobile phone, because the power consumption of the DA3 is designed by the computer, if the phone's charging capacity is not enough, it can not be used, if the phone is not protected, there it is also the possibility of damaging the phone! Thank you for your mail Auguri Sabaj customer support team"


----------



## Researcher

Quequacio96 said:


> This is what Sabaj wrote about it.
> 
> "Hello, dear friend We do not recommend the use of the DA3 mobile phone, because the power consumption of the DA3 is designed by the computer, if the phone's charging capacity is not enough, it can not be used, if the phone is not protected, there it is also the possibility of damaging the phone! Thank you for your mail Auguri Sabaj customer support team"



If you use iphone, i believe no problem at all as the cable supports upto 100 mW. Thats why many people here have feeling like "hey, DFR on my iphone cannot work as good as on my computer".
 But, i have no info about Android based platform


----------



## RockStar2005

Quequacio96 said:


> This is what Sabaj wrote about it.
> 
> "Hello, dear friend We do not recommend the use of the DA3 mobile phone, because the power consumption of the DA3 is designed by the computer, if the phone's charging capacity is not enough, it can not be used, if the phone is not protected, there it is also the possibility of damaging the phone! Thank you for your mail Auguri Sabaj customer support team"



Yeah but, these days you have QC 3.0 and 4.0, so I wouldn't be so concerned about that. See U.S. Amazon user comments I filtered using "Android" as the filter/search term. Seems to be worth it from what the guy on March 8th says (end of review). 

Is the cable that comes with the DA3 OTG?? I would hope yes.


----------



## CactusPete23

Is this still the Dragonfly Thread ?


----------



## RockStar2005

CactusPete23 said:


> Is this still the Dragonfly Thread ?



Yes? lol


----------



## Researcher

CactusPete23 said:


> Is this still the Dragonfly Thread ?



do not get me wrong, can i learn what it is? lol


----------



## andrewski

My guess is Audioquest will unveil new dragonflies at CES 2020, and the DFR will still be a marvel


----------



## Quequacio96

RockStar2005 said:


> Yeah but, these days you have QC 3.0 and 4.0, so I wouldn't be so concerned about that. See U.S. Amazon user comments I filtered using "Android" as the filter/search term. Seems to be worth it from what the guy on March 8th says (end of review).
> 
> Is the cable that comes with the DA3 OTG?? I would hope yes.


I read on another forum that should work with one plus 3 ... But it consumes a little bit. It is supplied only with a type-c to male usb cable. You would need a y-cable, where you can connect a power bank to power the type-c of the DA3 and instead only otg from the cell phone to the DA3.


----------



## RockStar2005

Quequacio96 said:


> I read on another forum that should work with one plus 3 ... But it consumes a little bit. It is supplied only with a type-c to male usb cable. You would need a y-cable, where you can connect a power bank to power the type-c of the DA3 and instead only otg from the cell phone to the DA3.



Yeah. The DFR I've read also consumes a good amount of battery life (more than the Black too), so I mean, I guess if you want more quality, you will have to sacrifice more battery life. But again, if it's an issue, you've got the battery pack option and also with QC 3.0 and 4.0 coming out soon supposedly, recharging will be a snap! To have that better quality though I say is WELL worth the occasional trip to my wall charger. lol 

If we are to continue speaking about Sabaj though, unless it's in comparison to the DFB or DFR, we probably SHOULD start a new thread. Up to you guys.


----------



## VRacer-111

RockStar2005 said:


> Yeah. The DFR I've read also consumes a good amount of battery life (more than the Black too), so I mean, I guess if you want more quality, you will have to sacrifice more battery life. But again, if it's an issue, you've got the battery pack option and also with QC 3.0 and 4.0 coming out soon supposedly, recharging will be a snap! To have that better quality though I say is WELL worth the occasional trip to my wall charger. lol
> 
> If we are to continue speaking about Sabaj though, unless it's in comparison to the DFB or DFR, we probably SHOULD start a new thread. Up to you guys.



From what I've read, the DFR is the more efficient one with less power draw.


----------



## RockStar2005

VRacer-111 said:


> From what I've read, the DFR is the more efficient one with less power draw.



Really?? It was a year or so ago, but the one or two I read said the opposite. Anyone know for sure? 

I would think the "more powerful" one would also be the one that drew the most power, but efficiency can make a lot of difference too.


----------



## Researcher

andrewski said:


> My guess is Audioquest will unveil new dragonflies at CES 2020, and the DFR will still be a marvel



Yes, DFR is still a Marvel, but What about DFB (reminder for 99 usd)? DFB is not better than DA2 for 69 usd. Moreover, gap between DFR and the other usb dac is closing.  DFR and DFB need es9018 and es9038q2m, respectively, with `hiss free design` right now, if AQ wants to sustain its business in a good way.


----------



## RockStar2005 (Apr 17, 2018)

Researcher said:


> Yes, DFR is still a Marvel, but What about DFB (reminder for 99 usd)? DFB is not better than DA2 for 69 usd. Moreover, gap between DFR and the other usb dac is closing.  DFR and DFB need es9018 and es9038q2m, respectively, with `hiss free design` right now, if AQ wants to sustain its business in a good way.



Yeah, I agree. Though the advancements from each new Sabre DAC & amp are minimal at best, over a couple generations, things start to add up. Better noise filtering & instrument separation, widening of the soundstage, better power efficiency, etc..............AQ needs to compete. That doesn't mean they should release a new set of DragonFly amp/DACs every year, but definitely every 2-3 years for sure. The fact that AQ doesn't appear to have any plans to release a new DF this year is not a good sign for them. The DFR and DFB are now officially 2 years old as of March (DFR) and April (DFB) of this year, so if not this year, then they are pushing into the 3 year mark. And even then they may just rely on firmware updates and think that will keep people around. But it won't. Not with devices like the ones Sabaj is making.


----------



## big45-70

I'm quite happy with my DFB and find it actually drives low resistance (he400i) planars extremely well.  I prefer it because it keeps my volume controls on my keyboard while gaming.  I can't see myself upgrading anytime soon.


----------



## PeteMtl

Researcher said:


> Yes, DFR is still a Marvel, but What about DFB (reminder for 99 usd)? DFB is not better than DA2 for 69 usd. Moreover, gap between DFR and the other usb dac is closing.  DFR and DFB need es9018 and es9038q2m, respectively, with `hiss free design` right now, if AQ wants to sustain its business in a good way.



I’m pretty sure most of us (me included) could not hear the difference between the the DFR with the ES9016 and any successor using the ES9018 or ES9038 DACs. The ES9016 is already a champion in its sound qualities, and combines a nice digital volume and amp. It also consumes not a lot of battery power. However any improvements will be in the form of better power management (to diminish the power requirements and battery usage when used with tablets of phones) and additional compatibility with higher end digital formats (DSD and sampling rates over 96mhz). Note that these two grounds of improvements are conflictual, since compatibility with higher end codecs will require more power, offsetting any gains in power management. But in real world when using 16 or 24 bit 44.1khz music files (which account for 99% or so of all digital music available in this world), I don’t expect any significant improvements in the sound quality of the future device taking the place of the DFR in Audioquest’s offering. Just my 2 cents of comment, for what it is worth... Direct lightning (iOS) compatibility would bring a good improvement I must admit, getting rid of the use of adapters.


----------



## RockStar2005

PeteMtl said:


> I’m pretty sure most of us (me included) could not hear the difference between the the DFR with the ES9016 and any successor using the ES9018 or ES9038 DACs. The ES9016 is already a champion in its sound qualities, and combines a nice digital volume and amp. It also consumes not a lot of battery power. However any improvements will be in the form of better power management (to diminish the power requirements and battery usage when used with tablets of phones) and additional compatibility with higher end digital formats (DSD and sampling rates over 96mhz). Note that these two grounds of improvements are conflictual, since compatibility with higher end codecs will require more power, offsetting any gains in power management. But in real world when using 16 or 24 bit 44.1khz music files (which account for 99% or so of all digital music available in this world), I don’t expect any significant improvements in the sound quality of the future device taking the place of the DFR in Audioquest’s offering. Just my 2 cents of comment, for what it is worth... Direct lightning (iOS) compatibility would bring a good improvement I must admit, getting rid of the use of adapters.



As I'd said, I think any improvement that is noticed would be minimal. So for the most part I agree. But the key item here is "more for less". If the competition is selling a product that's even marginally superior at a lesser price, then that is something that will get people talking. But yes, upgrades would be nice too. I'd prefer it too if AQ released versions of the DFB and DFR that had a mobile connector to it (aka, not USB lol). Like perhaps have an Apple version with a Lightning connector or Direct lightning (not sure what the difference is there since I own Android), and a MicroUSB-C version for Android. Then you wouldn't need the adapter for either one. But still of course sell a USB version for computer use as well. Though on the flip side of that, I kind of like the idea of an adapter ONLY b/c I feel like the setup would be easier to carry around and use if the there is some "slack" b/t the DFB/DFR and your phone. It makes the device seem more like an in-line remote that way. So I guess I'm kinda divided. lol


----------



## Quequacio96

Hi guys, the DA3 arrived, unfortunately I'm in university until tonight. By tomorrow I would like to put some photos and some impressions. Is there a suitable thread in the forum? I would not do too much OT


----------



## CactusPete23

Why not start a DA3 Thread?


----------



## Quequacio96

CactusPete23 said:


> Why not start a DA3 Thread?


All right, I do it tonight / tomorrow (Italian time zone). I hope I do not violate any rules of the regulation


----------



## RockStar2005 (Apr 19, 2018)

Quequacio96 said:


> All right, I do it tonight / tomorrow (Italian time zone). I hope I do not violate any rules of the regulation



Que, I'll go ahead and start. Just get all your thoughts and photos ready, and then visit the link below.

Ok done. If anyone wants to compare the Sabaj amp/DACs to AQ, they can still do that here, but for just specific Sabaj talk, go ahead and post in this new thread I just created for it. This thread is meant for ALL *PORTABLE* SABAJ AMP/DAC DEVICES, not just the DA3.


----------



## meurglys0

Does the recommended lghtning to usb3 camera adaptor really sound better than the older one without the charging port? Or does the AQ company recommends that one just to avoid possible complaints regarding the pops and clicks?

Because I'd really prefer to use the one without the charging port if the sound quality is identical...


----------



## Researcher

meurglys0 said:


> Does the recommended lghtning to usb3 camera adaptor really sound better than the older one without the charging port? Or does the AQ company recommends that one just to avoid possible complaints regarding the pops and clicks?
> 
> Because I'd really prefer to use the one without the charging port if the sound quality is identical...



I had a camera adapter, and then bought this;

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/dyp...af2a31b&transAbTest=ae803_2&priceBeautifyAB=0

I am quite happy with it. It works pretty nice with my iphone (ios 11.3).


----------



## DancingBlue (Apr 20, 2018)

meurglys0 said:


> Does the recommended lghtning to usb3 camera adaptor really sound better than the older one without the charging port? Or does the AQ company recommends that one just to avoid possible complaints regarding the pops and clicks?
> 
> Because I'd really prefer to use the one without the charging port if the sound quality is identical...



The two sound the same to me on both an iPhone 6s+ and X with iOS 11. I think their recommendation was, as you mentioned, to solve the pops and clicks problem. On the iPhone X with the older adapter I no longer have pops and clicks (I did with the older adapter and the 6s+ with iOS 11). However, others in the thread with an iPhone X DO still have pops and clicks with the older adapter.  So there's no clear answer, moreso depending on which model phone and version of iOS you're using. But no, to my ears there is no difference in sound quality between the two, and that's with using ALL the headphones and IEMs in my signature.


----------



## meurglys0

Researcher said:


> I had a camera adapter, and then bought this;
> 
> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/dyp...af2a31b&transAbTest=ae803_2&priceBeautifyAB=0
> 
> I am quite happy with it. It works pretty nice with my iphone (ios 11.3).





DancingBlue said:


> The two sound the same to me on both an iPhone 6s+ and X with iOS 11. I think their recommendation was, as you mentioned, to solve the pops and clicks problem. On the iPhone X with the older adapter I no longer have pops and clicks (I did with the older adapter and the 6s+ with iOS 11). However, others in the thread with an iPhone X DO still have pops and clicks with the older adapter.  So there's no clear answer, moreso depending on which model phone and version of iOS you're using. But no, to my ears there is no difference in sound quality between the two, and that's with using ALL the headphones and IEMs in my signature.



Thank you very much for the replies. I bought the CCK today. I'll try that and if it is problematic, then I'll either go Researcher's way or settle for the CCK3, knowing that the difference is negligible.


----------



## CyberGhost

Are there any news or rumours about new versions coming out? It's been 2 years since red got released.


----------



## RockStar2005

****


----------



## RockStar2005

CyberGhost said:


> Are there any news or rumours about new versions coming out? It's been 2 years since red got released.



Nope! lol See my post from a few weeks ago.............


----------



## spinrite

Hope they come out with a really great bluetooth version.


----------



## Mortus

Hello everybody

i have Q  i have akg k712pro and i am seeking dac/amp combo for them. Currently i am using this https://www.amazon.com/AUDIOTRAK-Pr...8&qid=1525388403&sr=8-1&keywords=prodigy+cube  with opamp muse 8820 ,
and my q is : is dragonfly red good pair for my headphones and will it be able to drive them properly also how does it compare to ifi nano idsd Le and ifi nano black edition ?, 
most important part for me is sound quality i use it on my desktop setup nothing on move ,and i do not like to listen music loud ,and if it is important i can hear from 18 hz up to 20khz+ range but i dont think it is relevant to subject


----------



## radiocalm

I just ordered the red. Anyone have thoughts on the difference in sound quality when using an iPhone versus using it on a computer? I’ve heard some reports of it sounding way better on a full computer or laptop than on an iPhone. I will be using it mostly with my phone so I am curious. Is it an improvement over the headphone out dongle on an iPhone 7 Plus? I’m sure it will be. I have a mojo and ha2se but I find neither are actually portable... I end up using the headphone out on the iPhone a lot since it’s so much easier and there’s not cables sticking out on both ends etc. I’m thinking the red will be nice and portable and allow me to always use something decent when I’m in a portable scenario like walking or hiking. Love the way the mojo sounds and bought it with the intention of using it portably, but that never happens as it’s just too much to carry and deal with. My hope is that the red will solve my portable problem. Are people having issues with popping and clicking with iPhones? Mine is currently a 7plus. I have the older style cck also.


----------



## chinmie

radiocalm said:


> I just ordered the red. Anyone have thoughts on the difference in sound quality when using an iPhone versus using it on a computer? I’ve heard some reports of it sounding way better on a full computer or laptop than on an iPhone. I will be using it mostly with my phone so I am curious. Is it an improvement over the headphone out dongle on an iPhone 7 Plus? I’m sure it will be. I have a mojo and ha2se but I find neither are actually portable... I end up using the headphone out on the iPhone a lot since it’s so much easier and there’s not cables sticking out on both ends etc. I’m thinking the red will be nice and portable and allow me to always use something decent when I’m in a portable scenario like walking or hiking. Love the way the mojo sounds and bought it with the intention of using it portably, but that never happens as it’s just too much to carry and deal with. My hope is that the red will solve my portable problem. Are people having issues with popping and clicking with iPhones? Mine is currently a 7plus. I have the older style cck also.



i have opposite experience. to me connecting to my laptop sound like it has a bit of background noise compared to the blacker background when connecting to my S7edge


----------



## Colors

radiocalm said:


> I just ordered the red. Anyone have thoughts on the difference in sound quality when using an iPhone versus using it on a computer? I’ve heard some reports of it sounding way better on a full computer or laptop than on an iPhone. I will be using it mostly with my phone so I am curious. Is it an improvement over the headphone out dongle on an iPhone 7 Plus? I’m sure it will be. I have a mojo and ha2se but I find neither are actually portable... I end up using the headphone out on the iPhone a lot since it’s so much easier and there’s not cables sticking out on both ends etc. I’m thinking the red will be nice and portable and allow me to always use something decent when I’m in a portable scenario like walking or hiking. Love the way the mojo sounds and bought it with the intention of using it portably, but that never happens as it’s just too much to carry and deal with. My hope is that the red will solve my portable problem. Are people having issues with popping and clicking with iPhones? Mine is currently a 7plus. I have the older style cck also.



I find it sounds better on my MacBook Pro than with my iPhone, especially with the Jitterbug.

As for the iPhone, generally it does sound better with the DFR but YMMV depending on the earphone. For example, for me:

ER4XR and Campfire Comets - sounds better without DFR imo.
GR07 and RE-400 - sounds much better with DFR
Sennheiser Momentum IEM - sound better with DFR and Jitterbug


----------



## Researcher

IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO USE DFR on an IPHONE;

-turn off  `true tone`
- use external battery through camera adapter 3.0.

I found these tricks make sound really good.

DFR is an amazing solution for PC as well. take note that i am only on TIDAL HiFi.


----------



## chinmie

i like my ER4XR better with the DFR


----------



## radiocalm

So just received my red today, haven’t listened much... or used it with all my headphones... but so far I would say it completely trounces the little cheap iPhone dongle (no surprise there). And I can put my phone in my pocket and walk around which is exactly why I bought it. It sounds wonderful, warm, smooth and so much cleaner, clearer and more resolving than straight out of my iPhone. The build quality seems fantastic as well, for it being a little dongle it feels really well made and very solid. I really like the red color and look of the finish they used. This is exactly what I wanted. I love my mojo and it sounds incredible but it’s just not portable in a way that works for me. Very happy with this purchase and the sound quality, technology and drive that they have put into this tiny little thing is thoroughly impressive. And you don’t have to charge it’s battery which is priceless. Highly recommended.


----------



## Colors

radiocalm said:


> So just received my red today, haven’t listened much... or used it with all my headphones... but so far I would say it completely trounces the little cheap iPhone dongle (no surprise there). And I can put my phone in my pocket and walk around which is exactly why I bought it. It sounds wonderful, warm, smooth and so much cleaner, clearer and more resolving than straight out of my iPhone. The build quality seems fantastic as well, for it being a little dongle it feels really well made and very solid. I really like the red color and look of the finish they used. This is exactly what I wanted. I love my mojo and it sounds incredible but it’s just not portable in a way that works for me. Very happy with this purchase and the sound quality, technology and drive that they have put into this tiny little thing is thoroughly impressive. And you don’t have to charge it’s battery which is priceless. Highly recommended.



It's pretty awesome.


----------



## Rhinomyte76 (May 6, 2018)

Colors, any further thoughts on the red?  Looking for more info before pulling the trigger


----------



## Colors

Rhinomyte76 said:


> Colors, any further thoughts on the red?  Looking for more info before pulling the trigger



Let's just say there's no drawbacks from getting the DFR. Pretty much all my earphones sound better (ER4XR, GR07, Campfire Comets, RE-400 and Sennheiser Momentum IEM) with it. More and cleaner bass, more extension to the treble, larger soundstage and more detail. It sounds even better when you use it with a laptop.

Granted, my gf gave it to me for a bday present and I think the DFB is better value from what I've read and if I used my own money but if they extra $100 doesn't make a difference for you, the DFR is a good buy in terms of future proofing.


----------



## chinmie

Colors said:


> Let's just say there's no drawbacks from getting the DFR. Pretty much all my earphones sound better (ER4XR, GR07, Campfire Comets, RE-400 and Sennheiser Momentum IEM) with it. More and cleaner bass, more extension to the treble, larger soundstage and more detail. It sounds even better when you use it with a laptop.
> 
> Granted, my gf gave it to me for a bday present and I think the DFB is better value from what I've read and if I used my own money but if they extra $100 doesn't make a difference for you, the DFR is a good buy in terms of future proofing.



the DFB and DFR sounds different to my ears though, the DFB has a more laid back and smoother sound, while the DFR have more brightness presence and a bit more in your face. both are good


----------



## Colors

chinmie said:


> the DFB and DFR sounds different to my ears though, the DFB has a more laid back and smoother sound, while the DFR have more brightness presence and a bit more in your face. both are good



Haven't heard the DFB (might test it out in store one day) but you are right about the DFR and the brightness, which I really like (adds a bit of sparkle).


----------



## chinmie

Colors said:


> Haven't heard the DFB (might test it out in store one day) but you are right about the DFR and the brightness, which I really like (adds a bit of sparkle).



yes, and to me the $100 is worth it for the DFR


----------



## 329161

I'm a little late to the party, has the android volume issue for the DFR been solved?


----------



## Hariz Nordin

dcfac73 said:


> I'm a little late to the party, has the android volume issue for the DFR been solved?


Yes


----------



## XSoldier

Is it possible to downgrade to v1.06 on DFB? There is more hiss sound with v1.07 on Android.


----------



## mjmax

My Dragontail for Android used to work well until now, but suddenly stopped transmitting the music (the sound goes out of the phone without passing through the micro-USB). I use it with a Dragonfly Red which works well when plugged on a PC. I could not test it yet on another Android device. Any idea what can be wrong? Is there anybody else who had such issue?


----------



## Colors

MicroUSB cable is broken?


----------



## voidedsoul

People my year old Dragonfly Black's casing is fully stripped of paint and the aluminium shell is visible. Is it possible to reshell them?


----------



## zolom (May 28, 2018)

voidedsoul said:


> People my year old Dragonfly Black's casing is fully stripped of paint and the aluminium shell is visible. Is it possible to reshell them?


Had the same issue with the DFB. I peeled the remaining black casting whole to show the aluminum color.


----------



## voidedsoul

zolom said:


> Had the same issue with the DFB. I peeled the remaining black casting whole to show the aluminum color.



I am also thinking of doing the same


----------



## georgelai57

voidedsoul said:


> I am also thinking of doing the same


----------



## Marc Roberts

Hariz Nordin said:


> Yes



... sort of.

All that's happening is the hardware volume is getting set to 100%. This causes some weird background noise issues.

Properly fixed would be that Android was controlling the hardware volume, which it isn't. The hardware volume is getting set to 100% and Android is adjusting the software volume.


----------



## chinmie

georgelai57 said:


>



that's cool looking


----------



## RockStar2005

chinmie said:


> that's cool looking



Yeah it kinda is actually. lol


----------



## 329161

georgelai57 said:


>


Special Edition Silver


----------



## RockStar2005

dcfac73 said:


> Special Edition Silver



lol


----------



## 458302

My second attempt on DFR.
Definitely works better with Andro, than Jupiter.
Lower noise floor. Someone mentioned before, that Andro can be overly bright with DFR. I don't think so, but i have Pacific LE version.

p.s.
Are DFR and DFB same sized?
Wanna install DFB housing on DFR internals, just for visials.


----------



## Colors

I need to get my CCK replaced. It must be excessive bending as it’s really not built for this kind of portable amp/smartphone combo usage (obviously you need to bend the cable and hold the amp with your fingers so the amp is not dangling down as you use your phone = heavy). It’s causing cutting noises with my DFR. The DFR is working fine with my MacBook Pro.


----------



## musicisthekey

georgelai57 said:


>



What did you do? Now it's going to sound even brighter.


----------



## bequietjk

Dragonfly + Amtrak/Greyhound = oof


----------



## Sarnia

I've just got a Dragonfly Red to try out. It works fine on my Windows 10 laptop, but doesn't work at all on my Windows 10 desktop. It stays in standby (red light) and isn't recognised at all. Has anyone got any ideas why this may be?

I have never had any issues with USB on my desktop before. I've tried searching for info but haven't come up with any answers.


----------



## 458302

Sarnia said:


> I've just got a Dragonfly Red to try out. It works fine on my Windows 10 laptop, but doesn't work at all on my Windows 10 desktop. It stays in standby (red light) and isn't recognised at all. Has anyone got any ideas why this may be?
> 
> I have never had any issues with USB on my desktop before. I've tried searching for info but haven't come up with any answers.


Does it show itself in the playback device section? Maybe it is nessesary to manually switch output to DFR? 
p.s. I hope you tried different usb ports.


----------



## Sarnia

hsdw said:


> Does it show itself in the playback device section? Maybe it is nessesary to manually switch output to DFR?
> p.s. I hope you tried different usb ports.


Thanks for the response. It doesn't show in sounds etc at all. I've tried all USB ports, tried restarting too. Very strange.


----------



## CactusPete23

Sarnia said:


> Thanks for the response. It doesn't show in sounds etc at all. I've tried all USB ports, tried restarting too. Very strange.


Might try updating the drivers for the USB ports ?


----------



## snapz47

would this pair well with some hd650


----------



## sling5s (Jun 9, 2018)

I have both the dragonfly red (MQA firmware updated) and chord hugo 2 and with MQA masters on Tidal (with Amarra), this little dac sounds so much better than my hugo 2.
If I only listened to MQA masters, than it makes the chord hugo 2 obsolete, unless chord enables their dacs to render MQA. I just love how the MQA sounds.

Last time I heard this level of realism was through Chord Dave and Cavalli Tungnsten Amp...but even more so now with MQA files through my humble dragonfly red.


----------



## Sarnia

Thanks for the suggestions. I managed to get it working by going into Device Management. When I plugged the Dragonfly Red in it showed a driver error. Uninstalled the driver and when I plugged it in again it worked.


----------



## DatClampTho

snapz47 said:


> would this pair well with some hd650



DFR has plenty of juice for HD650. Not a bad combo at all imo.


----------



## PeteMtl (Jun 9, 2018)

DatClampTho said:


> DFR has plenty of juice for HD650. Not a bad combo at all imo.



I agree. My end-game portable sound gear is the iPhoneX->Apple camera adapter->Dragonfly Red->HD6xx. I use it all the time around the house. My alternate sources are the iPad Pro or MacBook Pro. When I use the Mac I also use the Audioquest USB Jitterbug. When I use the iPad or iPhone I don’t bother with the Jitterbug. It’s a “budget end-game” setup, but nevertheless it is fabulous. I also use my O2/SDAC setup in the living room. But the Dragonfly Red produces enough power for the Senns. As a matter of fact, with its 2v output, and with the Senns efficiency (db/mw) and it’s rated 300 ohms impedance, the Red doesn’t need to produce very much wattage to conveniently drive the Sennheiser 6xx. It’s a very good setup, and the Red’s hotter treble (without being sibilant or too bright) is a good match to the HD6xx smooth and low profile upper frequencies. A very very good match between the Red and the Senns.


----------



## Sarnia

Now I've got this working it's going to be interesting to try it out.

I can't listen to headphones for long due to an ear issue, so I've moved to Tidal from Qobuz Sublime+, as I can't justify the cost. The MQA addition to the DFR made it great value, especially as I got it for half price as an open box.

I'm using it mainly with a pair of Phillips Fidelio X2 from my Windows PC and laptop. I'll also be using it with an iPad Pro and possibly a Sony phone.

Previously I had a Sony TA-ZH1ES amp and the NW-WM1Z and 1A daps with Hifiman HE-1000v2, Mr Speakers Aeon Flow closed, Pioneer SEM1 and various others.

So far with limited listening I'm impressed. The level of performance for the price is excellent.


----------



## PCWar

Did you have a chance to try the DF red with the EX1000. I'm contemplating if going for the WM1A and reterminating my EX1000 to balanced or just stick with the DF red. I would be especially interested to know if the DF red tames a bit the treble of the EX1000 and how does this compare to the WM1A.


----------



## Sarnia

PCWar said:


> Did you have a chance to try the DF red with the EX1000. I'm contemplating if going for the WM1A and reterminating my EX1000 to balanced or just stick with the DF red. I would be especially interested to know if the DF red tames a bit the treble of the EX1000 and how does this compare to the WM1A.


It's been a long time since I sold the WM1A, so it's difficult to give any meaningful comparison. I've also never had any issues with treble on the EX1000. I have a slight dip in my high frequency hearing, maybe it's in that troublesome frequency range, who knows.

The WM1A was great, but bulky and heavy (although it felt light compared to the WM1Z brick). From my hazy memory I'd say the WM1A had better sound on balanced, and the WM1Z was a decent step up from there. However with the extra bulk, weight and cost I'd go with the DF red I think. I don't think the difference in sound is that huge.

I primarily stream my music from Qobuz or now Tidal, so the DF red is a no-brainer there. I do have a reasonable collection of ripped CDs and some hi-res Flacs, but I find Qobuz and Tidal sound better than my older ripped CDs.

For me the convenience, weight, size and ability to stream Tidal with MQA win the race. If I was looking at getting a Sony DAP again I'd be going for the ZX300. It's smaller and lighter, and can be used with a PC so can be used with streaming services. It supposedly sounds like the WM1A.


----------



## PCWar

Thank you for the detailed feedback. That was what I was looking for.


----------



## DoItNow

Hi All, any updates of using the old camera adapter to iOS devices running 11.3 to 11.4? Are there any issues running it with Tidal or Spotify? Thanks in advance!


----------



## Colors

I eventually had to sell my DFR (with CCK cable) because of popping/crackling noises when using it with my iPhone X.

I know this is an iPhone X specific problem. Apparently if you turn off True Tone, it goes away and it does when I tested it. However, I could so hear maybe like 10%. Sold my Jitterbug too.

Got myself a Chord Mojo instead.


----------



## megabigeye

Hi there,
I'm wondering if others are having trouble with the DFR and Spotify on Android (specifically 8.1.0 on Essential Phone)?  I updated the DFR firmware a few months ago so Android volume worked without UAPP.  Now for some reason I'm not getting any sound at all through the DFR when using Spotify.  I get sound using the dongle that came with the phone and I get sound using the DFR and UAPP.  Is there a setting I'm missing or something?
I've been using Spotify since X-Mas time-ish and mostly just find it to be a PITA.


----------



## DancingBlue

DoItNow said:


> Hi All, any updates of using the old camera adapter to iOS devices running 11.3 to 11.4? Are there any issues running it with Tidal or Spotify? Thanks in advance!





Colors said:


> I eventually had to sell my DFR (with CCK cable) because of popping/crackling noises when using it with my iPhone X.
> 
> I know this is an iPhone X specific problem. Apparently if you turn off True Tone, it goes away and it does when I tested it. However, I could so hear maybe like 10%. Sold my Jitterbug too.
> 
> Got myself a Chord Mojo instead.



Just tried Spotify with DFR and CCK2 on my iPhone X running 11.4. I have True Tone disabled and no problems, so confirming @Colors observation as well.


----------



## CyberGhost

Do any of you have an experience with 
CEntrance DACport HD Portable?

How does it compare to Dragonfly Red?


----------



## PeteMtl (Jun 13, 2018)

DancingBlue said:


> Just tried Spotify with DFR and CCK2 on my iPhone X running 11.4. I have True Tone disabled and no problems, so confirming @Colors observation as well.



I have the same results... without disabling True Tone. In the past, with my iPhone 6S I was using the CCK3 with the DFR, because the CCK2 was producing clicks and pops with the DFR. I eventually bought the iPhone X, I upgraded iOS from 11.3 up to 11.4. But even before 11.4 I switched back to the CCK2 with my new iPhone X and I never suffered from any clicks and pops like before. Same with iOS 11.4. And I never disabled True Tone anytime in the past or in the present.


----------



## DancingBlue

PeteMtl said:


> I have the same results... without disabling True Tone. In the past, with my iPhone 6S I was using the CCK3 with the DFR, because the CCK2 was producing clicks and pops with the DFR. I eventually bought the iPhone X, I upgraded iOS from 11.3 up to 11.4. But even before 11.4 I switched back to the CCK2 with my new iPhone X and I never suffered from any clicks and pops like before. Same with iOS 11.4. And I never disabled True Tone anytime in the past or in the present.



Exact same experiences here; had clicks and pops with my iPhone 6s plus and the CCK2 on iOS 11, so I switched to the CCK3 with it. When I moved to the X I was happy to see that the CCK2 was working again. Never had a problem with any version of iOS 11.


----------



## DoItNow

Colors said:


> I eventually had to sell my DFR (with CCK cable) because of popping/crackling noises when using it with my iPhone X.
> 
> I know this is an iPhone X specific problem. Apparently if you turn off True Tone, it goes away and it does when I tested it. However, I could so hear maybe like 10%. Sold my Jitterbug too.
> 
> Got myself a Chord Mojo instead.






DancingBlue said:


> Just tried Spotify with DFR and CCK2 on my iPhone X running 11.4. I have True Tone disabled and no problems, so confirming @Colors observation as well.






PeteMtl said:


> I have the same results... without disabling True Tone. In the past, with my iPhone 6S I was using the CCK3 with the DFR, because the CCK2 was producing clicks and pops with the DFR. I eventually bought the iPhone X, I upgraded iOS from 11.3 up to 11.4. But even before 11.4 I switched back to the CCK2 with my new iPhone X and I never suffered from any clicks and pops like before. Same with iOS 11.4. And I never disabled True Tone anytime in the past or in the present.






DancingBlue said:


> Exact same experiences here; had clicks and pops with my iPhone 6s plus and the CCK2 on iOS 11, so I switched to the CCK3 with it. When I moved to the X I was happy to see that the CCK2 was working again. Never had a problem with any version of iOS 11.



Thank you very much all for your responses, I really appreciate it. It is great to hear that the old adapter works for iOS 11.4 however I forgot to mention that I was running iPhone 7 plus. Were there any chances that you have demoed it with the 7 plus? I have not yet pulled the trigger to purchase the CCK2.


----------



## DancingBlue

DoItNow said:


> Thank you very much all for your responses, I really appreciate it. It is great to hear that the old adapter works for iOS 11.4 however I forgot to mention that I was running iPhone 7 plus. Were there any chances that you have demoed it with the 7 plus? I have not yet pulled the trigger to purchase the CCK2.



Sorry, I went straight from the 6s plus to the X, so I didn't try the 7 or 8.


----------



## Godbluffer

I just bought the Dragonfly Red, and i have an odd issue with it. I installed UAPP on my Samsung Galaxy S8+, and connected the DFR to it. The DFR gets recognized by UAPP, and when I play music, the UAPP interface shows that I’m using the DFR... but when I look at my notifications, Audio indicates that it’s giving me the internal Android signal, and indeed it sounds exactly the same as when I plug in my headphone directly with the regular audio jack. The really odd part is that when I pause music while it’s in supposed DFR mode, the Audio notofication *does* show that the signal is handled by the DFR, but as soon as I press Play, it jumps straight back to Android, and I can’t change it. What could be wrong here?


----------



## PeteMtl (Jun 16, 2018)

Godbluffer said:


> I just bought the Dragonfly Red, and i have an odd issue with it. I installed UAPP on my Samsung Galaxy S8+, and connected the DFR to it. The DFR gets recognized by UAPP, and when I play music, the UAPP interface shows that I’m using the DFR... but when I look at my notifications, Audio indicates that it’s giving me the internal Android signal, and indeed it sounds exactly the same as when I plug in my headphone directly with the regular audio jack. The really odd part is that when I pause music while it’s in supposed DFR mode, the Audio notofication *does* show that the signal is handled by the DFR, but as soon as I press Play, it jumps straight back to Android, and I can’t change it. What could be wrong here?



Very simple: what’s wrong is that you are using an Android device. Swap your Galaxy junk for an iPhone X and be happy! Just joking, but the truth is that DFR compatibility with Android devices has always been so-so. The DFR is flawless with OSX or iOS devices, and more so since iOS 11, you may use either CCK2 ou CCK3 connectors flawlessly. With Android and UAPP connectors, it has always been hit and miss. Samsung Galaxies are great phones, running a still imperfect Android OS, so compatibility problems are prone to happen. And Audioquest has done a better job with iOS compatibility of its Black and Red devices than with Android OS. Have you upgraded your Android OS to its newest version?


----------



## Godbluffer

Hmm, I did indeed come across these compatibility issues, but since the DFR seemed to get recognized by my phone, I had hoped it would work. And I do have the most recent updates installed on both my phone and the DFR. Additionally, you say compatibilty is flawless with iOS devices. Well, I also connected it my iPad Pro 12.9, running on iOS 11.4 using a Lightning to USB Camera Adapter, but also there I don’t hear any difference, and there seems to be know way of knowing the signal is being processed by the DFR or by iOS itself. It almost feels like the DFR isn’t really doing anything at all.


----------



## CactusPete23

Godbluffer said:


> Hmm, I did indeed come across these compatibility issues, but since the DFR seemed to get recognized by my phone, I had hoped it would work. And I do have the most recent updates installed on both my phone and the DFR. Additionally, you say compatibilty is flawless with iOS devices. Well, I also connected it my iPad Pro 12.9, running on iOS 11.4 using a Lightning to USB Camera Adapter, but also there I don’t hear any difference, and there seems to be know way of knowing the signal is being processed by the DFR or by iOS itself. It almost feels like the DFR isn’t really doing anything at all.


I guess there are several possibilities...
First though, Does the light on the DFR change colors when you play different kHz of Hi-Res files?  Or does it stay the same color.  IF it is working properly it should show: Red: Standby; Green: 44.1kHz; Blue: 48kHz; Amber: 88.2kHz; Magenta: 96kHz.   Try some flac files in these different resolutions.  If you see the colors ,then the DFR is working properly, (and I suppose you are just not hearing the difference?)   If the colors are *not* changing, then your DFR is not getting the correct signal from the phone.  UAPP is supposed to  send a clean signal on almost all Android phones to the external DAC.  You may have some setting in UAPP wrong.  Make sure you connect the DFR, THEN start UAPP so it can recognize it.


----------



## Godbluffer

CactusPete23 said:


> I guess there are several possibilities...
> First though, Does the light on the DFR change colors when you play different kHz of Hi-Res files?  Or does it stay the same color.  IF it is working properly it should show: Red: Standby; Green: 44.1kHz; Blue: 48kHz; Amber: 88.2kHz; Magenta: 96kHz.   Try some flac files in these different resolutions.  If you see the colors ,then the DFR is working properly, (and I suppose you are just not hearing the difference?)   If the colors are *not* changing, then your DFR is not getting the correct signal from the phone.  UAPP is supposed to  send a clean signal on almost all Android phones to the external DAC.  You may have some setting in UAPP wrong.  Make sure you connect the DFR, THEN start UAPP so it can recognize it.


I already tested it with various resolution FLAC files, and it dutifully changes colors as it’s supposed to. Also, it’s not like I’m unable to tell differences between sound systems. My PC, my CD player, my iPad, and my phone all have easily distinguishable sound signatures, but no matter the source I connect the DFR to, there is never a discernable difference from the source itself


----------



## Godbluffer

Also, my Sennheiser HD800S is pretty discerning, so I *should* be hearing differences.


----------



## CactusPete23

Godbluffer said:


> I already tested it with various resolution FLAC files, and it dutifully changes colors as it’s supposed to. Also, it’s not like I’m unable to tell differences between sound systems. My PC, my CD player, my iPad, and my phone all have easily distinguishable sound signatures, but no matter the source I connect the DFR to, there is never a discernable difference from the source itself



I did not mean to disrespect you or your hearing of music.   Just trying to help you diagnose the problem, and all possible reasons...

In my experience, when the DFR changes colors, it is in fact receiving the correct bit rate and sampling rate.   So, it's not a phone problem. 

 Have you set it to "Bit Perfect" in UAPP?    Can you show what settings you are using in UAPP?


----------



## Godbluffer

CactusPete23 said:


> I did not mean to disrespect you or your hearing of music.   Just trying to help you diagnose the problem, and all possible reasons...
> 
> In my experience, when the DFR changes colors, it is in fact receiving the correct bit rate and sampling rate.   So, it's not a phone problem.
> 
> Have you set it to "Bit Perfect" in UAPP?    Can you show what settings you are using in UAPP?


No offense taken.  I have eveything set to Bit Perfect under HiRes and USB Audio, and under USB audio tweaks, the Use USB DAC box is checked. Otherwise I haven’t changed any settings. I also closed UAPP, then inserted the DFR, and only after that I restarted UAPP. No change. It’s still acting the same as before, and without a discernible difference in sound.


----------



## Godbluffer

And i forgot, I also have Hardware Volume control on, and which the app also allows me to use.


----------



## 458302

DFR is not bad, but output is too weak to drive 800S.


----------



## Godbluffer

hsdw said:


> DFR is not bad, but output is too weak to drive 800S.


In my experience, the 800S has never felt underpowered even with the lowest-level recordings. I can always crank it up to an enjoyable level without any additional amplification, at least on the Galaxy S8.


----------



## PeteMtl

Godbluffer said:


> Hmm, I did indeed come across these compatibility issues, but since the DFR seemed to get recognized by my phone, I had hoped it would work. And I do have the most recent updates installed on both my phone and the DFR. Additionally, you say compatibilty is flawless with iOS devices. Well, I also connected it my iPad Pro 12.9, running on iOS 11.4 using a Lightning to USB Camera Adapter, but also there I don’t hear any difference, and there seems to be know way of knowing the signal is being processed by the DFR or by iOS itself. It almost feels like the DFR isn’t really doing anything at all.



Could it be you have a defective DFR?


----------



## CactusPete23

Godbluffer said:


> And i forgot, I also have Hardware Volume control on, and which the app also allows me to use.


Thanks for the info!  It looks like you do have everything set up properly.  And I checked on the UAPP website that both your phone The Samsung Galaxy S8 and the are listed as working properly with UAPP's App.      

FYI... My DFR has always worked with UAPP on 3 diffferent phones, and 2 different Windows Laptops.  I have zero experience with Apple Products. (Except for 3 ipod classics that I converted to microsd drive for a friend).     

I would suggest that you contact Audioquest directly.   Or the store where you bought the DFR.     Perhaps they have some other ideas to try, or you can try another one.   

(Let's hope that fake/copy DFR's are not in the marketplace!)


----------



## Godbluffer

CactusPete23 said:


> Thanks for the info!  It looks like you do have everything set up properly.  And I checked on the UAPP website that both your phone The Samsung Galaxy S8 and the are listed as working properly with UAPP's App.
> 
> FYI... My DFR has always worked with UAPP on 3 diffferent phones, and 2 different Windows Laptops.  I have zero experience with Apple Products. (Except for 3 ipod classics that I converted to microsd drive for a friend).
> 
> ...


Thanks for your insights, and I will certainly do so!


----------



## DoItNow

I can confirm that the CCK2 works flawlessly with iPhone 7 plus running iOS 11.4 and playing with Tidal, Spotify, Safari, Youtube etc.. Thank you for everyone who helped me.


----------



## megabigeye

megabigeye said:


> Hi there,
> I'm wondering if others are having trouble with the DFR and Spotify on Android (specifically 8.1.0 on Essential Phone)?  I updated the DFR firmware a few months ago so Android volume worked without UAPP.  Now for some reason I'm not getting any sound at all through the DFR when using Spotify.  I get sound using the dongle that came with the phone and I get sound using the DFR and UAPP.  Is there a setting I'm missing or something?
> I've been using Spotify since X-Mas time-ish and mostly just find it to be a PITA.


Nobody else is having this problem?


----------



## 329161 (Jun 19, 2018)

I'm having trouble with Apple Music on android with the DFR. Songs just refuse to play. All my other music apps work eg Spotify, Google Music, and Tidal. Anyone else with this issue?


----------



## Flash676

I picked up a DFR for use with my Windows 10 laptop.  I bought it mainly for the low output impedance.  My Shure SE846 IEMs are specified as 9 ohms and are prone to significant shifts in their frequency response when used with high output impedance amps.  I also considered the (new) Monoprice Monolith USB DAC but couldn't find anything stating its output impedance.

My impressions thus far:

It's terrifying loud.  With the volume set to 2 it's loud, and with it at 4 it's too loud.  When I enabled MQA in Tidal, it synced the Windows 10 volume setting to Tidal's volume slider which was set to 50.  It was not a pleasant experience.

There's very little, if any, background noise.

It's robbed my Shures of some of their low end response.  It might be a bit on the bright side for my taste.  I am sensitive to treble, but overall it's not an offensive sound.

I also have Audeze LCD-4z headphones but I've yet to use them with the DFR.


----------



## DoItNow

Flash676 said:


> I picked up a DFR for use with my Windows 10 laptop.  I bought it mainly for the low output impedance.  My Shure SE846 IEMs are specified as 9 ohms and are prone to significant shifts in their frequency response when used with high output impedance amps.  I also considered the (new) Monoprice Monolith USB DAC but couldn't find anything stating its output impedance.
> 
> My impressions thus far:
> 
> ...




I believe that DFB and DFR have volume issues with Windows. Good thing your volume was not set to 100 or else.


----------



## 435279

PeteMtl said:


> Very simple: what’s wrong is that you are using an Android device. Swap your Galaxy junk for an iPhone X and be happy! Just joking, but the truth is that DFR compatibility with Android devices has always been so-so. The DFR is flawless with OSX or iOS devices, and more so since iOS 11, you may use either CCK2 ou CCK3 connectors flawlessly. With Android and UAPP connectors, it has always been hit and miss. Samsung Galaxies are great phones, running a still imperfect Android OS, so compatibility problems are prone to happen. And Audioquest has done a better job with iOS compatibility of its Black and Red devices than with Android OS. Have you upgraded your Android OS to its newest version?



I just had to comment, this is wrong, have a look around this forum and elsewhere on the Internet, its full of people complaining that Apple broke device compatibility with this update and that update.

If its working at the moment, enjoy it, the next update may break it completely and Apple only care about profit, so if a non-Apple device gets broken by a F/W update don't expect a quick fix if you get a fix at all.

I'm sticking with Android and I've NEVER had an issue with any device or external audio device.


----------



## BillK (Jun 24, 2018)

I have a DFR arriving tomorrow and will be using with UAPP and a Motorola Moto G 6 Android phone. I have had this set up before but cannot remember the optimum volume settings, could someone please let me know what's best.

Many thanks!


----------



## headfry (Jun 24, 2018)

SteveOliver said:


> I just had to comment, this is wrong, have a look around this forum and elsewhere on the Internet, its full of people complaining that Apple broke device compatibility with this update and that update.
> 
> If its working at the moment, enjoy it, the next update may break it completely and Apple only care about profit, so if a non-Apple device gets broken by a F/W update don't expect a quick fix if you get a fix at all.
> 
> I'm sticking with Android and I've NEVER had an issue with any device or external audio device.



=========================
So you think and believe ......the truth is that Apple is an amazing company that makes fantastic products
.....Android and WIndows wouldn't exist if it weren't
for Apple's inventions..... and two wrongs don't make a right.

Everyone loves to cheer their team on...but it doesn't have to come at the expense of the truth
and free choice. No need to berate the other side.

With all due respect,.I recommend keeping indignation out of these discussions...as it leads to nowhere.


----------



## 329161 (Jun 24, 2018)

headfry said:


> =========================
> So you think and believe ......the truth is that Apple is an amazing company that makes fantastic products
> .....Android and WIndows wouldn't exist if it weren't
> for Apple's inventions..... and two wrongs don't make a right.
> ...


From my point of view, I've owned 2 iPods, and they both broke after about 2 years of use each. Also Apples attitude toward file management, specifically having to use iTunes, is a nightmare. I'm android and Windows all the way because they allow the user flexibility to use their products in a way they feel comfortable with. So, your view of the truth, is just your opinion. The poster you responded to was only expressing _his_ opinion. 
Also you have done the same thing you accused the quoted poster of doing. 
Keeping this post on topic - Apple Music is the only streaming/music app on my phone that doesn't work with my DFR. I think this is an issue with Apple, and not android.


----------



## headfry (Jun 24, 2018)

dcfac73 said:


> From my point of view, I've owned 2 iPods, and they both broke after about 2 years of use each. Also Apples attitude toward file management, specifically having to use iTunes, is a nightmare. I'm android and Windows all the way because they allow the user flexibility to use their products in a way they feel comfortable with. So, your view of the truth, is just your opinion. The poster you responded to was only expressing _his_ opinion.
> Also you have done the same thing you accused the quoted poster of doing.
> Keeping this post on topic - Apple Music is the only streaming/music app on my phone that doesn't work with my DFR. I think this is an issue with Apple, and not android.




Sorry for your experiences..they are by no means universal. Competitor's products fail too.

The post I was responding to didn't take in the bigger picture IMHO.

Plenty of us have Apple products and enjoy them, live and let live.

....let's keep the discussion balanced!


----------



## 329161

headfry said:


> Sorry for your experiences..they are *by no means universal*. Competitor's products fail too.
> 
> The opinion didn't take in the bigger picture IMHO.
> 
> Plenty of us have Apple products and enjoy them, *let's keep the discussion balanced*.


1. Your experiences with Apple aren't either.
2. Absolutely  agree with you. Your post that I quoted seemed to not be doing that.


----------



## megabigeye (Jun 24, 2018)

BillK said:


> I have a DFR arriving tomorrow and will be using with UAPP and a Motorola Moto G 6 Android phone. I have had this set up before but cannot remember the optimum volume settings, could someone please let me know what's best.
> 
> Many thanks!


I don't have the same phone as you, but I'm assuming it's more or less the same.  The good thing is that none of these adjustments are irreversible, so if I were you I'd just play around with settings until it seems best for your needs.  There are only three settings that matter to me, the rest just seem like personal preference...
Under Settings >> Volume:
1) USB Volume control  = Hardware volume control (my take is this allows UAPP to control the DFR's volume directly, rather than decreasing bitrate through software)
2) Use volume rocker buttons = On (if this is off, you can't adjust the volume when the screen is locked or UAPP is otherwise in the background)
3) Next/prev track = Off (I want to be able to use my phone's rocker buttons to adjust the volume (see 2, above); the On position will allow you to change tracks instead)

Also, with the main volume slider at the middle position, I like to keep the hardware volume just slightly higher than my normal listening level.  Otherwise it seems like volume is either too low or increments between volume steps is too great.)
I also keep crossfeed on because it seems like soundstage depth is increased slightly.  Of course, this could just be me imagining things.  The effect seems pretty subtle.

My one small complaint about UAPP is that they update it so frequently and it seems like often one thing is broken as they fix another.  The positive aspect is that they update the app so frequently that it's not broken for very long before it's fixed again.


----------



## BillK

Many thanks for your detailed reply, very helpful!


----------



## PeteMtl (Jun 24, 2018)

SteveOliver said:


> I just had to comment, this is wrong, have a look around this forum and elsewhere on the Internet, its full of people complaining that Apple broke device compatibility with this update and that update.
> 
> If its working at the moment, enjoy it, the next update may break it completely and Apple only care about profit, so if a non-Apple device gets broken by a F/W update don't expect a quick fix if you get a fix at all.
> 
> I'm sticking with Android and I've NEVER had an issue with any device or external audio device.



If you read my post carefully, you will se that:
1) my first sentence was A JOKE, I aknowledged it myself in the second sentence;
2) all I have said is that the DFR compatibility with Android equipement has been so-so since the beginning. With the iPhone and IPad, there has never been a issue using the CCK3 since the beginning and the CCK2 clic/pop issue has been resolved in iOS 11. That is basically all that I Have said. You may agree or disagree. I am not making a judgment on Android phones, I even recognized that the Samsung Galaxy is a great phone. All I said is that there are compatibility issues between many Android setups using the DFR and the related connectors. That is all I have said. Most or all issues related to iOS machines with the DFR were related to the CCK2, with occasional clics and pops. To my knowledge amd personal experience, these CCK2 issues are resolved, and I use the CCK2 all the time with the DFR. And never had any issue with Apple Music running on the DFR, although I use Spotify Premium 80% of the time, because I prefer Spotity for many reasons. The personal experience I have with Spotify is unsurpassed by any competitor. In my opinion, they have the best service overall, and their implementation of shareable music lists, music suggestions and the related predictive algorithms they use is simply fantastic and unequalled in my opinion.
I leave all other commentators alone with their comments on other Android issues or for that matter regarding all other Apple products issues. That was not the purpose of my comment. If you want to judge Apple in all its products and services, then go ahead, i’m just not going there.


----------



## megabigeye

BillK said:


> Many thanks for your detailed reply, very helpful!


No Problem!


----------



## windplr

DancingBlue said:


> Just tried Spotify with DFR and CCK2 on my iPhone X running 11.4. I have True Tone disabled and no problems, so confirming @Colors observation as well.



I just got my DFR today to pair with a CCK (the small one), and new iphone X.  Tried Spotify and it sounds pretty good.  Then I tried some flac downloads at 24-bit 192kbps.  Horrible pops, clicks and other odd sounds.  Basically un-listenable.   Sure glad I found this thread.  The iphone came with 11.2.5.  Upgrading to 11.4 seems to have fixed the issue.  Oh, and I do have True Tone enabled.

Now for some DFR goodness in a great portable setup!


----------



## vadimkolchev

Does DragonFly Red eat much smartphone juice when working?


----------



## windplr

vadimkolchev said:


> Does DragonFly Red eat much smartphone juice when working?



It seems to be less than 25mA as iphones will not let any device run that draws more than that.  I was using a DacMagic XS on an Android phone and that one used a lot of power.  I really haven't noticed much power drain from the Red, but your mileage may vary.


----------



## vadimkolchev

Thank you, despite owning a good DAP I am still looking to try dragonfly as I find smartphone something more convenient and all-in-one-place solution.


----------



## thrgk

Is there a way to adjust EQ or bass ? I want to "fun" up my NuForce EDC3, they are a neutral IEM.

I have the dragonfly black, awesome dac/amp just want it a bit more fun sounding.

Thanks


----------



## 435279

thrgk said:


> Is there a way to adjust EQ or bass ? I want to "fun" up my NuForce EDC3, they are a neutral IEM.
> 
> I have the dragonfly black, awesome dac/amp just want it a bit more fun sounding.
> 
> Thanks



That would depend on what you have the DFB plugged in to and if applicable the software you are using.


----------



## caenlenfromOCN

Hey guys, I am having some trouble updating my Dragonfly Black firmware:  I downloaded direct from Audioquest website, 1.07 is latest version.

I run windows 10 64 bit.

this is all it shows me... I have the DF Black plugged in, selected as my audio source within windows, and it just won't give me anything... just keeps saying unknown device.

please help. I love my DF Black ^^


----------



## caenlenfromOCN

also can anyone tell me how to tell apart dragonfly black from dragonfly v1.2?  maybe i have v1.2.... :/


----------



## touramalli (Jul 4, 2018)

caenlenfromOCN said:


> also can anyone tell me how to tell apart dragonfly black from dragonfly v1.2?  maybe i have v1.2.... :/








v1.2 in the left, dfb in the middle.

The model name should be written in the back IIRC anyway, I remember seeing it in the DFR.


----------



## caenlenfromOCN

ah, silver tip on v.12 and gold on the other two. i guess I own the v1.2, the person that sold it to me said it was a black.  gg life


----------



## BillK

caenlenfromOCN said:


> Hey guys, I am having some trouble updating my Dragonfly Black firmware:  I downloaded direct from Audioquest website, 1.07 is latest version.
> 
> I run windows 10 64 bit.
> 
> ...



I had this problem also. If you click on the DF properties, you may see the driver is curupted and need to reload - have a look.


----------



## caenlenfromOCN

BillK said:


> I had this problem also. If you click on the DF properties, you may see the driver is curupted and need to reload - have a look.




I don't know what you mean by DF properties, I right clicked and went to properties, but it doesn't show much, just how big the file size is, etc.

I'm pretty sure mine is V1.2, because silver tip... the red and black have gold tips... :/


----------



## caenlenfromOCN

Can anyone confirm that their Dragonfyl Black has gold tip, not silver? as seen in picture comparing all 3 up above... if so then it means I got ripped off, lol


----------



## megabigeye

I don't have the DFB or v1.2, but according to the Dragonfly comparison sheet (PDF), v1.2 has silver lettering and the Black has gold lettering.

Hoping for your sake that you have the Black!


----------



## caenlenfromOCN

megabigeye said:


> I don't have the DFB or v1.2, but according to the Dragonfly comparison sheet (PDF), v1.2 has silver lettering and the Black has gold lettering.
> 
> Hoping for your sake that you have the Black!




thanks. its the white lettering, his own pictures in his sell thread show the white lettering and silver tip too, yet he adverted v1.5 DF black for sale... so yeah i got ripped off. gonna contact moderators and him, show him screenshots, see if I can get a refund from him of some kind.


----------



## megabigeye

That sucks!  Hopefully it was just a mistake on the seller's part and he's willing to be reasonable.

Good luck!


----------



## 486930

I have had the DFR for about a week. It is a very nice upgrade from the sound from my laptop. 

It is getting time to either return it or keep it. I think I’ll keep it, but I’m already wondering if there is a better alternative when you include price, performance and form factor to the equation?


----------



## monsieurfromag3

Malmbak said:


> I have had the DFR for about a week. It is a very nice upgrade from the sound from my laptop.
> 
> It is getting time to either return it or keep it. I think I’ll keep it, but I’m already wondering if there is a better alternative when you include price, performance and form factor to the equation?


Well there’s a reason the DFR hasn’t bulged in price since release, or been replaced by a v2 device. There are a myriad contenders, but not many with that particular combination of ease of use, sound quality, amp power, excellent manufacturing quality and support from an established brand. I tried the Encore mDSD, it’s great but a step below in refinement, runs hot since it can decode more advanced formats that nobody uses and which require specific drivers...

The Cyrus Soundkey is supposed to be good and modern and seems even smaller, but with a laptop the footprint of a Dragonfly is negligible already and the Soundkey adds one cable to the equation since it doesn’t plug directly into a USB port. Plus it’s far from the DFR in power (they recommend 64 Ohms max impedance). I haven’t heard Beyerdynamic’s Impacto, it’s priced above Audioquest’s line but can only, _exclusively_, be used with their own headphones (!?).

That’s the thing with most of the competition: the devices are too old, or not mature enough, or hampered by weird restrictions, or developed with capabilities just as bizarre that end up as liabilities, so you run into issues that Audioquest has wisely side-stepped as they kept gunning for what’s most important in this form factor.

If anything I’d draw your attention to another type of device entirely: the high-quality Bluetooth receivers such as Radsone’s ES100, which acts as an external USB DACs for a PC like the DFR does, but mostly feeds your wired gear with dual AKM DAC sound through LDAC or aptX HD and works its magic from your pocket, in your car... Amazing app when used from a phone too, and their support has been incredible through the past months.


----------



## 486930

monsieurfromag3 said:


> Well there’s a reason the DFR hasn’t bulged in price since release, or been replaced by a v2 device. There are a myriad contenders, but not many with that particular combination of ease of use, sound quality, amp power, excellent manufacturing quality and support from an established brand. I tried the Encore mDSD, it’s great but a step below in refinement, runs hot since it can decode more advanced formats that nobody uses and which require specific drivers...
> 
> The Cyrus Soundkey is supposed to be good and modern and seems even smaller, but with a laptop the footprint of a Dragonfly is negligible already and the Soundkey adds one cable to the equation since it doesn’t plug directly into a USB port. Plus it’s far from the DFR in power (they recommend 64 Ohms max impedance). I haven’t heard Beyerdynamic’s Impacto, it’s priced above Audioquest’s line but can only, _exclusively_, be used with their own headphones (!?).
> 
> ...



Thanks man


----------



## megabigeye

I believe there are DACs with similar form factor/performance and lower prices from SMSL and Sabaj.  But like you just said to yourself, "who?"
At least one of them (can't remember which) is not compatible with smartphones and will, in fact, damage them because it draws too much current.


----------



## caenlenfromOCN

I just got me a DFR used here on head-fi for $125 a couple nights ago. going to sell my schiit fulla 1 for $40 or $45, fiio k1 for $30, and my Dragonfly v1.2 for $35 or 40 and just use the DFR exclusively for all portable audio, and even dedicated desktop if I decide to sell my Lyr 3 someday, will need to compare sound signatures on my various headphones see if its worth doing that though.


----------



## deco cat

1) Can you recommend me a good OTG to Type-C cable for my DF Red?

2) Another question: is the DFR power enough to drive HIFIMAN HE-400i?


----------



## DatClampTho

deco cat said:


> 1) Can you recommend me a good OTG to Type-C cable for my DF Red?
> 
> 2) Another question: is the DFR power enough to drive HIFIMAN HE-400i?



1. The Anker one on Amazon has done me real well on GS8 and Pixel 2. Had a brand x one before that quit in a month or so.

2. Sure it will. A coworker of mine has and loves this combo.


----------



## gazzington

I'm thinking of getting the red. Will it work with iphone 8? Also, is there a way to connect these to cheap daps like benjie to improve listening experience on those?


----------



## PeteMtl

gazzington said:


> I'm thinking of getting the red. Will it work with iphone 8? Also, is there a way to connect these to cheap daps like benjie to improve listening experience on those?



I use the DFR with my iPhone X (and previously with my iPhone 6S) so I don’t see why it wouldn’t work well with your iPhone 8. It will provide 2x the voltage output of the Apple lightning to 3.5mm headphone adapter 2V rms instead of 1V rms under most headphone impedances. Apple products including the lightning dongle adapter already have excellent audio components (DAC, output amp inside the adapter), so don’t expect major audio quality differences with the DFR (and I love my DFR!). The main advantage will be the increased output voltage of the DFR which provides ability to drive most high impedance headphones out there. I use the DFR with my apple portable gear (iPad Pro 9.7, iPhone X) when I use my high impedance 300 ohm or 150 ohms Sennheisers (HD600, HD6XX, HD58X). The sound is excellent, the sound level output is just what I need at its max 2V output. You will need the Apple camera adapter (USB to lightning) to use the DFR, so it’s one component more than when using the Apple lightning to audio headphone adapter, but that doesn’t bother me. If you use lower impedance headphones, save your money and use the very good Apple lightning to audio headphone adpater A1749 instead at 9$, it’s unbeatable... difficult to justify paying 200$+ for the DFR in such circumstances. But for high impedance or use as a USB DAC on cheap component PC computers the DFR is the King of the Hill!

Check these links before you purchase the DFR:

https://kenrockwell.com/apple/lightning-adapter-audio-quality.htm

https://kenrockwell.com/apple/ipad-pro-audio-quality.htm

https://kenrockwell.com/apple/iphone-6s-plus-audio-quality.htm

https://kenrockwell.com/apple/airport-express-audio-quality-2014.htm


----------



## deco cat

Just get the Red for my Hifiman HE-400i but the volume is still low. Everyone assured the power was enough..


----------



## caenlenfromOCN

deco cat said:


> Just get the Red for my Hifiman HE-400i but the volume is still low. Everyone assured the power was enough..



schiit fulla 1 and 2 have enough power, none of the dragonflys have enough power for any planar imo.  

i'd sell it and get a magni 3, unless you absolutely need portability. then your next option is a schiit fulla 1 used, or a fulla 2. tho i find the schiit sound, whether it be magni 3 or fulla 2, to ruin the soundstage some.  my fulla 1 does quite well for all cans.


----------



## PeteMtl

deco cat said:


> Just get the Red for my Hifiman HE-400i but the volume is still low. Everyone assured the power was enough..



If you find that the Red doesn’t draw enough power to your HE-400i, then keep the Red and use it as a DAC in DAC mode for a higher power setup (Schiit Magni 3, O2 or similar budget amp). The Red is a fabulous DAC, one of the best there is at this price range. In DAC mode, it works flawlessly with my Massdrop O2 amp, for example. And if you use more efficient headphones in the future (most headphones are more efficient than your HE-400i, whatever the impedance), then your DragonFly Red will still be the king of the hill as a portable DAC/amp. I use it everyday with most of my headphone gear, see under my signature...


----------



## deco cat

PeteMtl said:


> If you find that the Red doesn’t draw enough power to your HE-400i, then keep the Red and use it as a DAC in DAC mode for a higher power setup (Schiit Magni 3, O2 or similar budget amp). The Red is a fabulous DAC, one of the best there is at this price range. In DAC mode, it works flawlessly with my Massdrop O2 amp, for example. And if you use more efficient headphones in the future (most headphones are more efficient than your HE-400i, whatever the impedance), then your DragonFly Red will still be the king of the hill as a portable DAC/amp. I use it everyday with most of my headphone gear, see under my signature...



Nice advise! How to set Red in DAC only mode. Is it possible to connect another amp to Red? What you suggest for portability? Or a less power hungry headphone with same quality than HE-400i?


----------



## PeteMtl (Jul 29, 2018)

deco cat said:


> Nice advise! How to set Red in DAC only mode. Is it possible to connect another amp to Red? What you suggest for portability? Or a less power hungry headphone with same quality than HE-400i?



1.If you plug the 3.5 mm output of the DFR to any amp using the basic required cable (basic 3.5mm to 3.5mm jacks or 3.5mm to RCA plugs, depending on the amp’s analog inputs available), then the DFR will automatically enter in DAC mode. You may use any amp with the Dragonfly Red, even the aux input of a stereo receiver / integrated amplifier if you wish. It will play just like a cd player plugged to an amp’s input, with its 2.1V output capability, just like a vintage CD player or a DVD/Blu Ray plugged from its stereo analog output. I do not spend a lot of money on amps, and I use the DFR as a DAC/amp or else I use the Massdrop O2 basic headphone amp. I have two of these, one with the integrated SDAC, the other as a standalone O2 amp. Apparently, the Schiit Magni 3 and others from this manufacturer are great little headphone amps that won’t ruin your budget. Many other amps are available out there, including some tube amps. I never tried tube amps, always been with solid state or IC transistor amps. Check on Massdrop, they carry many different amps offered from time to time. Both the O2 from Massdrop or other builders and the Schiit Magni 3 may be purchased as standalone headphone amps for 100$ or so. And they both provide all the power you need (except if you want to go deaf in a hurry). The O2 may be used with rechargeable 9V NIMH batteries and is therefore useable as a truly portable amp, but it is a little bulky. Check out truly portable amps from FIIO, Topping, Creative Labs, iFi, etc.
2. To be frank, most headphones out there are less power hungry than the HE-400i. If you like open headphones, alternative headphones with same quality include Sennheiser HD600 series headphones (HD600, HD650, HD660S, and the HD6XX and HD58X from Massdrop/Sennheiser collaboration). I would also include the Hifiman HE-400S which is supposed to be more efficient than the HE-400i and uses a lower impedance load. Many other headphones out there from Beyerdynamic and AKG in their over average quality headphones. Philips X2 is also well Regarded. I forget many other fair open headphones, check also Grado, Focal and Audio Technica, each of them having their own sound. You may also check out closed headphones which have their own pluses and minuses compared to open headphones. The Dragonfly Red will drive most headphones, including such 150 to 300 ohms headphones from Sennheiser, because of its 2.1V output capability.


----------



## georgelai57

I thought you need the DFR volume to be at max (by maximising your source’s volume) to put it into Line Out mode for connecting to another amp.


----------



## PeteMtl

georgelai57 said:


> I thought you need the DFR volume to be at max (by maximising your source’s volume) to put it into Line Out mode for connecting to another amp.



Yes you do if you want to reach 2.1V rms output out of your DFR


----------



## georgelai57

PeteMtl said:


> Yes you do if you want to reach 2.1V rms output out of your DFR


Okay thanks for clarifying because in your first mode, you had said that it automatically goes into DAC mode. Probably just semantics. Cheers.


----------



## stephanemtl

I get lots of static artifacts when using the Dragonfly Red as a dac to feed the signal to my new portable amplifier: Vorzuge Duo II.

iPhone (max volume) ==> Red Dragonfly (line out) ==> Portable Amplifier ==> HEADPHONES

Those static artifacts occur only when the amp's TREBLE/BASS BOOST is on... and it occurs only with low frequencies.

Can this problem be related to the 2.1 V output of the Dragonfly Red? which would, somehow, overdrive the input stage of the amplifier?


----------



## PeteMtl

stephanemtl said:


> I get lots of static artifacts when using the Dragonfly Red as a dac to feed the signal to my new portable amplifier: Vorzuge Duo II.
> 
> iPhone (max volume) ==> Red Dragonfly (line out) ==> Portable Amplifier ==> HEADPHONES
> 
> ...



Maybe the voltage gain of your amp is too high for a 2.1V input. Have you tried to lower the DFR’s volume level?


----------



## stephanemtl

PeteMtl said:


> Maybe the voltage gain of your amp is too high for a 2.1V input. Have you tried to lower the DFR’s volume level?



You are right. When I turn down the volume on my iPhone... the static is gone! But since the volume of my phone is not at maximum.... the DFR no longer works as a mere DAC, creating double-amplification. No? I thought that to use the DFR strictly as a DAC one had to turn the volume all the way up (according to the manual).


----------



## PeteMtl

stephanemtl said:


> You are right. When I turn down the volume on my iPhone... the static is gone! But since the volume of my phone is not at maximum.... the DFR no longer works as a mere DAC, creating double-amplification. No? I thought that to use the DFR strictly as a DAC one had to turn the volume all the way up (according to the manual).



I would say that it is still in DAC mode, only the DAC output is below the 2.1V Max output. No big deal in my opinion...


----------



## stephanemtl

PeteMtl said:


> I would say that it is still in DAC mode, only the DAC output is below the 2.1V Max output. No big deal in my opinion...



Does the DFR have a true (unamped) 'line out'?  I was under the impression that turning the volume all the way up was actually making a difference by turning the DFR into dac mode, bypassing its internal amplifier.


----------



## stephanemtl (Aug 3, 2018)

PeteMtl said:


> I would say that it is still in DAC mode, only the DAC output is below the 2.1V Max output. No big deal in my opinion...



I just talked to a representative of Audioquest and the DFR does not have a true, unamped, line out. Reducing the volume of the source, therefore, does not alter the quality of its 'line out.'


----------



## PeteMtl (Aug 3, 2018)

stephanemtl said:


> I just talked to a representative of Audioquest and the DFR does not have a true, unamped, line out.
> 
> That clarifies the situation...



I don’t think this makes any significative difference. What is a true line out by the way? The DFR behaves like a true line out at 2.1V (or less if you lower the output voltage). A true line out like you say must have some kind of pre-amp output to generate the normally required 2.1V to simulate a CD player typical analog line output. So what is the difference? A normal line out will use some kind of op amps to generate the required voltage output under a  resistive load compatible with an external amp’s input.
I use my DFR all the time with my O2 headphone amp and with other amps around such as my Onkyo stereo receiver. It works great even when I lower the DFR’s volume output.

Check out Ken Rockwell’s (google it) Apple product reviews (iPad, IPhones and Mac) and you will see that Apple products may be used as DACs with the normal 3.5mm headphone outputs and according to his benchmark testing, these Apple gears have better DAC output quality than most external DACs on sale, even higher priced DACs. And Apple products have no dedicated line outs...

For example read the part where the benchmark simulates the output into a  200kohms resistive load as if the iPad is used as a line out DAC device into an external amp:
https://kenrockwell.com/apple/ipad-pro-audio-quality.htm

The only downside is that most Apple products cannot reach an output voltage of 2V. Most of them are in the 1V range, with some Mac computers reaching 1.5V. The Wolfson and Cirrus Logic DACs in Apple products are truly superb in my opinion.


----------



## stephanemtl

PeteMtl said:


> I don’t think this makes any significative difference. What is a true line out by the way? The DFR behaves like a true line out at 2.1V (or less if you lower the output voltage). A true line out like you say must have some kind of pre-amp output to generate the normally required 2.1V to simulate a CD player typical analog line output. So what is the difference? A normal line out will use some kind of op amps to generate the required voltage output under a  resistive load compatible with an external amp’s input.



Interesting point, Pete. Up to now, I was under the impression that there was a significant difference between the "line out" (ready to be amplified) and the "headphone out" (already amplified) signals of a dac&amp.

I will have to think this over and follow the links


----------



## NaiveSound

I'm getting the red dragonfly.,  I have a note 8 that uses USB C.   What cable (on amazon) is ok for me to use to connect my phone to the red? 

Also how does one control the volume of the red dragonfly??


----------



## megabigeye (Aug 6, 2018)

Pretty sure any USB-C "OTG" cable should work.  I believe somebody was recommending the Anker cable a page or two back.  I don't see why any other with good reviews wouldn't work just as well, though.
I would steer you away from the Belkin one, though, because the DFR doesn't seat all the way in the USB socket.  Fortunately, I don't think it's on Amazon.

Control volume on DFR by using the hardware volume keys on your phone.  I'm using the S9 and it works very well.  If you use USB Audio Player Pro (which I highly recommend for locally stored music), there are all sorts of adjustments for volume control.

EDIT: Oops.  The Belkin one is on Amazon and it gets good reviews, but I still wouldn't recommend it.  Just make sure whatever you get that the DFR plugs all the way in.


----------



## NaiveSound

megabigeye said:


> Pretty sure any USB-C "OTG" cable should work.  I believe somebody was recommending the Anker cable a page or two back.  I don't see why any other with good reviews wouldn't work just as well, though.
> I would steer you away from the Belkin one, though, because the DFR doesn't seat all the way in the USB socket.  Fortunately, I don't think it's on Amazon.
> 
> Control volume on DFR by using the hardware volume keys on your phone.  I'm using the S9 and it works very well.  If you use USB Audio Player Pro (which I highly recommend for locally stored music), there are all sorts of adjustments for volume control.
> ...



I would use the DF red only for streaming tidal. 

But my note 8 volume doesn't have many steps... A shame the DF red doesn't have a small volume wheel


----------



## megabigeye

NaiveSound said:


> I would use the DF red only for streaming tidal.
> 
> But my note 8 volume doesn't have many steps... A shame the DF red doesn't have a small volume wheel


UAPP also supports Tidal, so you can control the volume that way, if you want.  I don't use Tidal, so I can't speak to the interface.
Using Spotify on my S9, I don't think I've ever been wanting for more volume steps.  I'd imagine it's similar to your Note 8 and Tidal.


----------



## NaiveSound

megabigeye said:


> UAPP also supports Tidal, so you can control the volume that way, if you want.  I don't use Tidal, so I can't speak to the interface.
> Using Spotify on my S9, I don't think I've ever been wanting for more volume steps.  I'd imagine it's similar to your Note 8 and Tidal.


Wanting more control doesn't mean I Want higher volume, I just want more steps


----------



## megabigeye

NaiveSound said:


> Wanting more control doesn't mean I Want higher volume, I just want more steps


Yeah, that's what I mean, too.  Really I guess we should be calling it "steps of attenuation."


----------



## monsieurfromag3

NaiveSound said:


> Wanting more control doesn't mean I Want higher volume, I just want more steps


UAPP is perfect for that. Streaming I found hit-and-miss however, it tended to skip for me but many users have no such problem. It really is your best option for Tidal streaming (even using mobile data) and gaining finer control over volume. You can also EQ to your heart’s content in UAPP.


----------



## megabigeye

Oh yeah!  I love the EQ!  Before UAPP, I never had much luck with EQ and subsequently didn't think about it much, but it really makes some of my less interesting 'phones more enjoyable.


----------



## miguelfcp

Nothing like to use bit perfect. The sounds is just as musicians wanted and no time wasted on EQ. Not forget that some EQ configurations can work well for some albums but not good for others.


----------



## megabigeye (Aug 7, 2018)

That's true.  I don't think it's bit perfect, but I don't notice when I use it sparingly/properly.  The only ill effect I've noticed was hissing when I boosted the treble +6dB for my PM-3.  That went away when I remembered to cut frequencies rather than boost.
And I do think it's better than some EQs-- my old FiiO X5 and iTunes, for instance.  The one on the X5 sounds like crap.


----------



## monsieurfromag3

miguelfcp said:


> Nothing like to use bit perfect. The sounds is just as musicians wanted and no time wasted on EQ. Not forget that some EQ configurations can work well for some albums but not good for others.


Well, you could argue that to get just what the musicians wanted you also need to listen with the same headphones and a similar-sounding source to what the sound engineer had in his booth or at the concert, and also make sure the musicians actually enjoyed his mix or the sound of a particular live recording. I think most musicians, by publishing their music, are implicitly encouraging us to connect wih it in the manner that suits us. I’m sure some would object to their creations being listened to on crappy gear, or with weird frequency responses or demented equalizing, but that’s usually an issue sound engineers care about more than the musicians themselves.


----------



## megabigeye

monsieurfromag3 said:


> Well, you could argue that to get just what the musicians wanted you also need to listen with the same headphones and a similar-sounding source to what the sound engineer had in his booth or at the concert, and also make sure the musicians actually enjoyed his mix or the sound of a particular live recording. I think most musicians, by publishing their music, are implicitly encouraging us to connect wih it in the manner that suits us. I’m sure some would object to their creations being listened to on crappy gear, or with weird frequency responses or demented equalizing, but that’s usually an issue sound engineers care about more than the musicians themselves.


This!  A thousand times this!
I don't understand the argument for "transparent" headphones or speakers for this very reason.  Unless you're listening on the same gear-- or at least gear that sounds the same-- as what was used in recording/mastering/etc., you're never going to hear it "as it was intended."  The idea of transparency seems to me like the Platonic Ideal of a headphone-- there's only one thing an Ideal Headphone can be-- Transparent!-- and any headphone that attains that Ideal ceases to be unique.  All headphones that are Ideal/Transparent sound exactly the same.

Yeah,  I realize that's probably not a very good interpretation of Platonic Idealism, but I don't remember / never understood in the first place what I learned in that philosophy class many years ago.


----------



## scarfacegt

Anyone know aboyt an cable that would work with the dragonfly black and samsung s9+?  ( usb c )


----------



## bvng3540

scarfacegt said:


> Anyone know aboyt an cable that would work with the dragonfly black and samsung s9+?  ( usb c )





 
Just bought that cable and work perfect with my s9+


----------



## bvng3540

I cant seem to make this work with my sony Dap and DFR, any help thanks


----------



## Pott (Aug 13, 2018)

Is this the DragonFly Red supposed to be on the quieter side? IEMs used are Westone W20s or NuForce x Massdrop EDC3.

ve not yet managed to compare phone -> IEMs vs. phone -> DragonFly Red -> IEMs, but it definitely does not get anywhere near as loud as I'd expect. It's kind-of loud enough to use when walking in the streets without too much distractions, but that's it. Hence it's not an issue, but it's still a little weird.

Setup:
Motorola Moto G5 -> Spotify -> Dragonfly Red, driver v.1.06.

(NOTE: I just updated the driver to v.1.07, we'll see if that fixes it...)
(Update: that did seem to do the trick! It's uncomfortably loud at less than half volume with the new update. I also, for the first time and don't ask why, did an A/B testing of straight from phone vs. DRFR... there's definitely way more body with the Red and the sound is just a little more coherent)


----------



## ggeinec

Pott said:


> ... snipped ...
> 
> Setup:
> Motorola Moto G5 -> Spotify -> Dragonfly Red, driver v.1.06.
> ...



So you have a DFR hooked up to your Moto G5 with a USB-OTG cable (?) and you are able to listen to music streamed through the Spotify app? With no pops, clicks, skips, or other artifacts in the music? Can you do the same with files downloaded from Spotify to your G5 played through the Spotify app? Can you do this with downloads stored on the SD card? Thanks!  (sorry for all the questions - I'm just desperate for a decent, reasonably priced and reasonably practical GOOD listening device)


----------



## Pott

ggeinec said:


> So you have a DFR hooked up to your Moto G5 with a USB-OTG cable (?) and you are able to listen to music streamed through the Spotify app? With no pops, clicks, skips, or other artifacts in the music? Can you do the same with files downloaded from Spotify to your G5 played through the Spotify app? Can you do this with downloads stored on the SD card? Thanks!  (sorry for all the questions - I'm just desperate for a decent, reasonably priced and reasonably practical GOOD listening device)



Yes, yes, no clicks or noises, yes, and yes  I've never heard artifacts through my DFR.
I may need more hours on the DFR, but so-far, so-good.


----------



## ggeinec

Pott said:


> Yes, yes, no clicks or noises, yes, and yes  I've never heard artifacts through my DFR.
> I may need more hours on the DFR, but so-far, so-good.



Interesting. When connected to my Motorola X Pure Edition via OTG the DFR shows all of those defects I listed. When listening through the headphone jack (without the DFR of course) none of them are present. Same when listening with the DFR on any of our PCs, no defects.


----------



## monsieurfromag3 (Aug 14, 2018)

ggeinec said:


> Interesting. When connected to my Motorola X Pure Edition via OTG the DFR shows all of those defects I listed. When listening through the headphone jack (without the DFR of course) none of them are present. Same when listening with the DFR on any of our PCs, no defects.


OTG needs a robust, extremely reliable connector. For me UAPP skipped all over the place because no matter how carefully I manipulated the phone + DFR combo or secured the cable there was just too much play. The DFR is now plugged into my PC and never skips a beat.


----------



## chinmie

never had any clicks and pos problems with my DFR and my phones. I'm using it with an S7, Note8, and Tab S2


----------



## ggeinec

Pott said:


> Yes, yes, no clicks or noises, yes, and yes  I've never heard artifacts through my DFR.
> I may need more hours on the DFR, but so-far, so-good.



I forgot to ask you, which OTG cable are you using with your G5? Maybe that is part of my problem . . .


----------



## Pott

I bought these: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00N9S9Z0G/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1.


----------



## ggeinec

Pott said:


> I bought these: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00N9S9Z0G/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1.



Thanks!


----------



## gazzington

Hmm trying to decide between dragonfly red or mojo.


----------



## zerolight

gazzington said:


> Hmm trying to decide between dragonfly red or mojo.



The mojo is night and day better. When I had one it did something wonderful to the sound - it made everything sound better. The dfr seemed to make everything sound brighter which didn't appeal at all. I wish I still had the Mojo - sold all my hifi gear last year and now buying it back again.


----------



## chinmie

gazzington said:


> Hmm trying to decide between dragonfly red or mojo.



mojo is warmer and fuller sounding, while the DFR is have more attack and brighter. i'd say the mojo have a deeper soundstage feel. technically the mojo is better than the DFR, but my friend sold his mojo for the DFR. i also prefer the Bluedac than the mojo (bright and analytical like the DFR with better amp and deeper staging). i don't like the mojo tone that much


----------



## caenlenfromOCN

Hey everyone, I have a Dragonfly V1.2 (not the black or red), I know the black and red can act as a dedicated DAC at 100 volume to an external amp, but does anyone know if my V1.2 DF can do this as well? Just curious, thanks!


----------



## zuber

Hi. I am referring to the volume again (it has been discussed here before).
Windows7 - Tidal App (use exclusive mode selected, force volume and passthrough MQA are not selected) - DragonFly Red - 64 Audio A12.

When exclusive mode is selected in Tidal app, you can control volume by default windows slider. 
What if volume level of 1 is still too loud? Have anyone figured it out what to do?


----------



## monsieurfromag3

zuber said:


> Hi. I am referring to the volume again (it has been discussed here before).
> Windows7 - Tidal App (use exclusive mode selected, force volume and passthrough MQA are not selected) - DragonFly Red - 64 Audio A12.
> 
> When exclusive mode is selected in Tidal app, you can control volume by default windows slider.
> What if volume level of 1 is still too loud? Have anyone figured it out what to do?


I love the DFR but I’m going back to dac/amps with gain and volume control...


----------



## zuber

monsieurfromag3 said:


> I love the DFR but I’m going back to dac/amps with gain and volume control...



I have ended up with ifi IEmatch. It is fine now


----------



## caenlenfromOCN

caenlenfromOCN said:


> Hey everyone, I have a Dragonfly V1.2 (not the black or red), I know the black and red can act as a dedicated DAC at 100 volume to an external amp, but does anyone know if my V1.2 DF can do this as well? Just curious, thanks!



can someone answer my question? ^


----------



## megabigeye (Sep 4, 2018)

caenlenfromOCN said:


> can someone answer my question? ^





			
				headfonia.com said:
			
		

> Or when connecting to a traditional preamplifier or AV receiver, DragonFly V1.2 can be set to a “fixed” output mode by turning the volume to maximum.


----------



## caenlenfromOCN

Cool, though I don't understand why they don't just say amp. Cause I am pretty sure I have never used a pre-amp, only dedicated headphone amps. Oh well, it works anyway as a dedicated DAC from the sounds of it. Cool. ty


----------



## seanheis

caenlenfromOCN said:


> Cool, though I don't understand why they don't just say amp. Cause I am pretty sure I have never used a pre-amp, only dedicated headphone amps. Oh well, it works anyway as a dedicated DAC from the sounds of it. Cool. ty


I think that a decent amount of people use them as a preamp for 2 channel audio. Here is the most accurate description I think: Audioquest DragonFly USB DAC Preamp Headphone Amp


----------



## fnsnyc

I am loving the Dragonfly!
Take one everywhere I take my laptop.


----------



## seanheis

fnsnyc said:


> I am loving the Dragonfly!
> Take one everywhere I take my laptop.


I wish they didn't sell two! Too difficult to decide between them.


----------



## fnsnyc

very true!


----------



## caenlenfromOCN

seanheis said:


> I wish they didn't sell two! Too difficult to decide between them.



I had the Black, Red, and V1.2 all at the same time recently and I actually prefer the V1.2 over the others. Smooths out the highs, clarity on vocals is best with V1.2, Red I found to be a little bright. V1.2 also has the best bass.  Red was best at soundstage and details and noise isolation, Black was an ok all arounder... but I still think V1.2 beats both, just for me personally.


----------



## seanheis

caenlenfromOCN said:


> I had the Black, Red, and V1.2 all at the same time recently and I actually prefer the V1.2 over the others. Smooths out the highs, clarity on vocals is best with V1.2, Red I found to be a little bright. V1.2 also has the best bass. Red was best at soundstage and details and noise isolation, Black was an ok all arounder... but I still think V1.2 beats both, just for me personally.



I think it just goes to show that it comes down to different vs better or worse. It would be interesting to see if your preferences change with different headphones.


----------



## caenlenfromOCN

seanheis said:


> I think it just goes to show that it comes down to different vs better or worse. It would be interesting to see if your preferences change with different headphones.



yeah you nailed it really, i always say there is no bad headphone in the world, your just using the wrong amp/dac combo. i am constantly surprised in this hobby by that fact.

but for my current cans the v1.2 wins -


----------



## seanheis

I'm surprised that Schiit hasn't come out with a Schiit Stick. The market is huge.


----------



## caenlenfromOCN

seanheis said:


> I'm surprised that Schiit hasn't come out with a Schiit Stick. The market is huge.



yeah especially if they made it lighting and type C compatible for phones that no longer have headphone jacks.


----------



## seanheis

caenlenfromOCN said:


> yeah especially if they made it lighting and type C compatible for phones that no longer have headphone jacks.



Bingo! No more mismatched dongles.


----------



## caenlenfromOCN

seanheis said:


> Bingo! No more mismatched dongles.



yeah it does seem like most people are loyal to Apple if they already have Apple, so just make 2 versions of Schiit Stick, type c (most phones, laptops, and modern desktops have type C) and one Lightning

it def could increase profits for them overnight as a big a name as they are. you are right, its weird they havent done it yet.


----------



## seanheis

caenlenfromOCN said:


> yeah it does seem like most people are loyal to Apple if they already have Apple, so just make 2 versions of Schiit Stick, type c (most phones, laptops, and modern desktops have type C) and one Lightning
> 
> it def could increase profits for them overnight as a big a name as they are. you are right, its weird they havent done it yet.



Mike Moffat is prolly the roadblock. He hates anything proprietary....he curses MQA.


----------



## megabigeye

caenlenfromOCN said:


> yeah it does seem like most people are loyal to Apple if they already have Apple, so just make 2 versions of Schiit Stick, type c (most phones, laptops, and modern desktops have type C) and one Lightning
> 
> it def could increase profits for them overnight as a big a name as they are. you are right, its weird they havent done it yet.


Well, it seems there's a chance that the Lightning connector may be phased out.  Maybe?  Somebody probably predicts this every year.  I also read recently that the EU is irritated with Apple for not switching to USB-C when they were told to.  I don't remember the details, though.

Anyway.  Making two dongles would probably cost too much, especially with Apple licensing costs.


----------



## caenlenfromOCN

megabigeye said:


> Well, it seems there's a chance that the Lightning connector may be phased out.  Maybe?  Somebody probably predicts this every year.  I also read recently that the EU is irritated with Apple for not switching to USB-C when they were told to.  I don't remember the details, though.
> 
> Anyway.  Making two dongles would probably cost too much, especially with Apple licensing costs.



nothing stopping them from a tpye C only though, thats still a huge market on its own. (im using my v1.2 as i travel europe, cause its just easier to deal with than fulla 2.) as an example


----------



## seanheis

I'm also irritated at Apple, but the EU telling Apple to switch to USB-C is way overstepping IMO.


----------



## snatex

How does the MQA performance of the Red and Black compare to the Merdian Explorer 2 when using Tidal Masters?


----------



## seanheis

Schiit has a cool explanation for why they don't support MQA. 

http://www.schiit.com/news/news/why-we-wont-be-supporting-mqa


----------



## Kevin Brown

I am considering getting one of these, but I don't 100% understand MQA yet.  Plus, all I care about is the deblurring technology, not playing MQA files, because I won't ever buy any.  But ...  right now, if I get one of these, even w/o the desktop app, can I get the deblurring from simply using the Red or Black Dragonfly listening to std CD digital 16/44.1?  [Cheers!]


----------



## caenlenfromOCN

seanheis said:


> Schiit has a cool explanation for why they don't support MQA.
> 
> http://www.schiit.com/news/news/why-we-wont-be-supporting-mqa



I compared MQA songs on Tidal with DFR to Spotify on same songs... honestly couldn't tell a difference, lol so I agree with Schiit


----------



## seanheis

caenlenfromOCN said:


> I compared MQA songs on Tidal with DFR to Spotify on same songs... honestly couldn't tell a difference, lol so I agree with Schiit



Yeah, it's splitting hairs for us folks with normal hearing.


----------



## anderman

seanheis said:


> I wish they didn't sell two! Too difficult to decide between them.


 
I had a hard time too. Ordered the red with the promise of being able to drive the HD6xx


----------



## Mightygrey

Are new DF's still shipping with trial codes for Roon inside the box?


----------



## samuelSL7

Mightygrey said:


> Are new DF's still shipping with trial codes for Roon inside the box?


I believe so, just purchased the black a couple of months ago and it came with its respective trial.


----------



## seanheis

Once you start Roon you won't want to cancel. Don't do it!!


----------



## derekphone

hornytoad said:


> I think the Mojo is just slightly better than the Dragonfly Red.
> 
> For the money, the Red is the better value. I do wish to Red had stronger amplification thus I would recommend
> earphones that are easy to drive as opposed to Sennheisers,etc.
> ...



I just picked up the Red and the Shure 846. Using it on my Mac desktop the volume is SO sensitive. Max is to set it 3 volume notches. As I type, I'm listening at 1/4 of one notch (shift/option/volume). I haven't purchased the dongle for the Red yet to test on my iphone. I'm assuming your volume issue is the same. If so, I'm curious how you can say that it's a perfect match. Please explain, I'm new to headphones.


----------



## hornytoad

derekphone said:


> I just picked up the Red and the Shure 846. Using it on my Mac desktop the volume is SO sensitive. Max is to set it 3 volume notches. As I type, I'm listening at 1/4 of one notch (shift/option/volume). I haven't purchased the dongle for the Red yet to test on my iphone. I'm assuming your volume issue is the same. If so, I'm curious how you can say that it's a perfect match. Please explain, I'm new to headphones.


I don’t use the Red and Shure with a computer . I use it directly with a camera connection kit and my iPhone .


----------



## hornytoad

derekphone said:


> I just picked up the Red and the Shure 846. Using it on my Mac desktop the volume is SO sensitive. Max is to set it 3 volume notches. As I type, I'm listening at 1/4 of one notch (shift/option/volume). I haven't purchased the dongle for the Red yet to test on my iphone. I'm assuming your volume issue is the same. If so, I'm curious how you can say that it's a perfect match. Please explain, I'm new to headphones.


Look into IE match from Ifi . It may help you in your situation .


----------



## derekphone

hornytoad said:


> Look into IE match from Ifi . It may help you in your situation .



Hmm thanks! That IE match looks amazing. The ultra high setting is for output impededence of 1ohm which is perfect. But then it says the ohm rating of headphones compatibility is 16-600. Which the 846s are 8-9 ohm. Should I expect that to ruin this heavenly marriage?


----------



## hornytoad

derekphone said:


> Hmm thanks! That IE match looks amazing. The ultra high setting is for output impededence of 1ohm which is perfect. But then it says the ohm rating of headphones compatibility is 16-600. Which the 846s are 8-9 ohm. Should I expect that to ruin this heavenly marriage?


Not sure but it’s worth a try !


----------



## Hifi98

lexterminator said:


> Does anyone know how much milliwatts the Dragonfly Red could pump out at 600ohm ? I'm curious to know if it could drive the Beyer T1 to decent sound level and dynamics.


I use my dragonfly primarily with my 400s’ from Hifiman. The impedance of those is 22Ω and I can comfortably listen to the DAC at half volume. The Audioquest dragonfly red is really meant for more sensitive headphones and IEM’s. I don’t think it could drive 600Ω cans. The Red is ideal for headphone of an impedance of 100Ω+ but I’m not convinced that an impedance 6x higher than the ideal is going to work. I would look towards a bigger portable amp like the Sony PHA1A portable DAC witch has an Impedance of 8-600Ω.


----------



## lentoviolento

hello everyone,
my dfr doesn't turns purple when playing mqa... why?
i did the procedure in the video. upgrated the driver, it still remanins blu (96000)


----------



## Focux

is thie DFR comparable w the meridian explorer 2?


----------



## 435279

lentoviolento said:


> hello everyone,
> my dfr doesn't turns purple when playing mqa... why?
> i did the procedure in the video. upgrated the driver, it still remanins blu (96000)



Probably you source or settings are wrong.


----------



## 435279

Focux said:


> is thie DFR comparable w the meridian explorer 2?



For MQA the ME2 is better, for "normal" audio the DFR is better.


----------



## gazzington

Hi, what cable do I need to get these to work on iPod touch 6th gen? Do I need to change any settings on the iPod?


----------



## arrakian (Oct 18, 2018)

Hi all,
I'm trying out the DFR (latest firmware) with Audeze Sine, my iPhone 8Plus, and Apple's USB/Lightning CCK 3.1. I can't get this thing to last the full 10 hours of my work day. Is there a way to turn off the "Dragon" light up front (wasting battery juice) or some setting i'm not aware of? I gave up the Fiio Q5 for this because IT only lasted 10 hours (I'd like to get at least 15).


----------



## 435279

arrakian said:


> Hi all,
> I'm trying out the DFR (latest firmware) with Audeze Sine, my iPhone 8Plus, and Apple's USB/Lightning CCK 3.1. I can't get this thing to last the full 10 hours of my work day. Is there a way to turn off the "Dragon" light up front (wasting battery juice) or some setting i'm not aware of? I gave up the Fiio Q5 for this because IT only lasted 10 hours (I'd like to get at least 15).



Unless I'm missing something the IPhone 8Plus is only rated at 12 hours battery life (depending on usage) so I can't see how you would get at least 15 hours use.

You are probably going to have to carry a small power bank too.


----------



## megabigeye

arrakian said:


> Hi all,
> I'm trying out the DFR (latest firmware) with Audeze Sine, my iPhone 8Plus, and Apple's USB/Lightning CCK 3.1. I can't get this thing to last the full 10 hours of my work day. Is there a way to turn off the "Dragon" light up front (wasting battery juice) or some setting i'm not aware of? I gave up the Fiio Q5 for this because IT only lasted 10 hours (I'd like to get at least 15).


This is a setting I wish AudioQuest would work on.  The light is maybe useful if you need to know which bitrate is being decoded, and maybe cute to look at, but beyond that, I agree that it's a needless draw on the battery (and annoyingly bright in a darkened room).


----------



## arrakian

SteveOliver said:


> Unless I'm missing something the IPhone 8Plus is only rated at 12 hours battery life (depending on usage)


After listening a full day (10 hours use), I still have about 65-70% battery life on my phone.I keep the screen off (mostly), listening to podcast and playlist.


----------



## arrakian

megabigeye said:


> ...I agree that it's a needless draw on the battery (and annoyingly bright in a darkened room).


I made the mistake of leaving it plugged in to my computer when I went to sleep ...flashlight.


----------



## Brahmsian

Holy crap. I'd read you should leave your amp on to achieve the best sound but never paid it any mind. I would always unplug my DFR after my listening sessions. But four or five days ago, I left it plugged into my MBP and it seems to me the sound has improved considerably. For one thing, the soundstage seems much more three dimensional. I'd say you haven't really heard your DFR unless you've left it on for a few days.

On a side note, some months ago I criticized the DFR here because of some distortion that I thought might be due to it. But after I upgraded my MacBook Pro to a 2017 model, the issues went away. The sound has been flawless.


----------



## arrakian

I burned my DFR in for about four days with the XLO Test Disc, so sound "spaciousness" wasn't a problem, but I learned that getting it warmed up for a half-hour gets better sound than a cold start.


----------



## WilliamLeonhart (Oct 25, 2018)

Hello everyone,
Nice to meet you all. I'd just written a comparison between the 2012 and the 1.5, and then today I suddenly realized there must be a dedicated thread for the Dragonflies. I thought I could share it with you:
https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/audioquest-dragonfly-black.21493/reviews#review-21048


From what I read just above I must find a way to try out the Red. Oh my poor wallet.



gazzington said:


> Hi, what cable do I need to get these to work on iPod touch 6th gen? Do I need to change any settings on the iPod?


The safest bet is to buy the official Camera Connection Kit cable from Apple. All "unofficial" cable might stop working anytime after a future iOS update


----------



## Brahmsian

I wrote a post here some time ago blaming my DFR for some audio distortion I was experiencing. I have to correct the record. Once I switched to a better, newer MBP with USB-C\Thunderbolt 3 ports the problem completely went away even using a USB 2.0 adapter. The DFR has proven to be a trusty little device.


----------



## Ultrainferno

A new Monday means a new prize! Giveaway 7/52 is now live and this week you can win the awesome DragonFly RED!

https://www.headfonia.com/giveaway-7-audioquest-dragonfly-red/


----------



## Danger (Nov 5, 2018)

Was wandering around ABT Electronics in Chicagoland area last Saturday and they were having an Audioquest sale, which included the Dragonflys.  Decided to pick up a Red and was out the door at $175.00.  Its only use will be mobile with my iPhone 6S as I have Modi and Magni 3's at home.  I really, really wanted to be amazed at a difference and I tried really hard to be amazed but in the end I had to be brutally honest with myself.  I tested it with Hifiman HE4XX's, the Senn 58X and the FiiO FH5's.  I honestly don't know if I would be able to tell the difference more than 50% of the time between the phone only and the phone with the Red in a blind, level matched test.  To me there may be an ever so slight improvement in well recorded string instruments but I don't think it was enough to justify lugging around this extra thing hanging off (or attached) to my phone.  It did drive the HE4XX's much better but those aren't something I use in a mobile manner anyway.  I usually just use the FH5's and sometimes I walk the dog with the Senn HD58X's.  Am I crazy?  What am I missing here?


----------



## hornytoad

Danger said:


> Was wandering around ABT Electronics in Chicagoland area last Saturday and they were having an Audioquest sale, which included the Dragonflys.  Decided to pick up a Red and was out the door at $175.00.  Its only use will be mobile with my iPhone 6S as I have Modi and Magni 3's at home.  I really, really wanted to be amazed at a difference and I tried really hard to be amazed but in the end I had to be brutally honest with myself.  I tested it with Hifiman HE4XX's, the Senn 58X and the FiiO FH5's.  I honestly don't know if I would be able to tell the difference more than 50% of the time between the phone only and the phone with the Red in a blind, level matched test.  To me there may be an ever so slight improvement in well recorded string instruments but I don't think it was enough to justify lugging around this extra thing hanging off (or attached) to my phone.  It did drive the HE4XX's much better but those aren't something I use in a mobile manner anyway.  I usually just use the FH5's and sometimes I walk the dog with the Senn HD58X's.  Am I crazy?  What am I missing here?


I find a significant difference with my iphone and the Dragononfly Red. Its not close really. Are you lowering the volume to near zero before you connect the Red?


----------



## Danger

hornytoad said:


> I find a significant difference with my iphone and the Dragononfly Red. Its not close really. Are you lowering the volume to near zero before you connect the Red?



First, thanks for the reply.  Sorry if I missed this earlier in the thread (I didn't go through the entire thing) but what does lowering the volume on the phone before connecting the Red do?


----------



## hornytoad

Danger said:


> First, thanks for the reply.  Sorry if I missed this earlier in the thread (I didn't go through the entire thing) but what does lowering the volume on the phone before connecting the Red do?


Well thats how you are supposed to connect and it should increase the dynamic range of the Red. 

Someone correct me if Im wrong here.


----------



## frustration101

Hi all. New to the forum. I have a DFB on the way. Lots of questions! 
Wondering if anyone has used the DFB with an iPhone Xs? Will I be better with the apple usb 2 or 3 cable? Are the volume problems still there? Thanks in advance.


----------



## hornytoad

frustration101 said:


> Hi all. New to the forum. I have a DFB on the way. Lots of questions!
> Wondering if anyone has used the DFB with an iPhone Xs? Will I be better with the apple usb 2 or 3 cable? Are the volume problems still there? Thanks in advance.


The volume problems that I know of were with Android Phones . A firmware update on Android phones was supposed to fix that but I don’t have any Android phones


----------



## hornytoad

frustration101 said:


> Hi all. New to the forum. I have a DFB on the way. Lots of questions!
> Wondering if anyone has used the DFB with an iPhone Xs? Will I be better with the apple usb 2 or 3 cable? Are the volume problems still there? Thanks in advance.


Apple 3 cable sounds better and has charging capability too


----------



## PeteMtl (Nov 5, 2018)

frustration101 said:


> Hi all. New to the forum. I have a DFB on the way. Lots of questions!
> Wondering if anyone has used the DFB with an iPhone Xs? Will I be better with the apple usb 2 or 3 cable? Are the volume problems still there? Thanks in advance.



You will probably not like what I have to say, but I think the DFB is only marginally better than the Apple dongle that comes with the iPhone X. For a significative difference, you should have chosen the DFR. The Apple dongle that you connect in the lightning output connector of the iPhone X has a very capable DAC from cirrus logic, it’s a delta sigma design, just like the ESS9010 in your DFB. Morover, the output provided by the dongle is similar to the output of other iPhones, typically about 0.9V to 1.0Vrms. The op amp used by Apple is very competent. The DFB has a voltage output only 20% higher at 1.2Vrms. By comparison, the DFR has a 2.1vrms output, similar to any cd player and 2x higher than an iPhone alone. Moreover, the Apple dongle is very well made, providing a first class sound output.

Check out this review: https://www.kenrockwell.com/apple/lightning-adapter-audio-quality.htm

For an alternative to a cheap made pc output the DFB is probably a good choice and a significant upgrade, but for an iPad or iPhone (even the lightning audio dongle) it is not a significant upgrade in my opinion. On the other hand, the DFR provides high impedance headphones which need higher voltage a true upgrade to the 1V output of an iPhone X with the lightning audio dongle.

To answer your questions, both the Apple USB 2 and 3 connectors are adequate for the DFB or DFR. Volume problems and clicks and pops with the USB 2 Apple connector are a thing of the past. With newer iOS versions, both connectors are flawless when used with the DFB amd DFR. In the past I was forced to use the Apple USB3 connector with my DFR. Now I prefer to use the USB2 connector since it is less bulky and has no sound problems anymore with the DFR.


----------



## PeteMtl (Nov 5, 2018)

Apple (usb) 3 (connector) cable sounds better (than the usb 2 connector): not true, not since iOS 11.

 and has charging capability too: true.


----------



## hornytoad (Nov 5, 2018)

PeteMtl said:


> Apple (usb) 3 (connector) cable sounds better (than the usb 2 connector): not true, not since iOS 11.
> 
> and has charging capability too: true.


We will have to disagree and that includes Audioquest . Ask them .


----------



## PeteMtl

hornytoad said:


> We will have to disagree and that includes Audioquest . Ask them .



Audioquest used to recommend the USB3 connector because there was a compatibility issue with the USB2 connector and the DFR/DFB. This is not the case anymore since the iOS11.2 or .3 upgrade. Audioquest has simply not corrected their web site since the issue correction on Apple’s side. I have used both connectors for a few years, the USB3 sound superiority used to be true, but in my personal opinion the USB2 connector now has no more sound issues and produces the same sound quality to my DFR than the USB3 connector. You are fully permitted to disagree if you wish to do so.


----------



## DancingBlue

PeteMtl said:


> Audioquest used to recommend the USB3 connector because there was a compatibility issue with the USB2 connector and the DFR/DFB. This is not the case anymore since the iOS11.2 or .3 upgrade. Audioquest has simply not corrected their web site since the issue correction on Apple’s side. I have used both connectors for a few years, the USB3 sound superiority used to be true, but in my personal opinion the USB2 connector now has no more sound issues and produces the same sound quality to my DFR than the USB3 connector. You are fully permitted to disagree if you wish to do so.



This is my exact same experience as well with a DFR and a 6s+, SE, and X.


----------



## clerkpalmer

DancingBlue said:


> This is my exact same experience as well with a DFR and a 6s+, SE, and X.


Are these iPhone connectors the cck camera kits? Or just a simple usb to lightning?  Just grabbed some headphones and am looking at a df red to drive them and don’t want to buy the wrong thing.


----------



## DancingBlue

clerkpalmer said:


> Are these iPhone connectors the cck camera kits? Or just a simple usb to lightning?  Just grabbed some headphones and am looking at a df red to drive them and don’t want to buy the wrong thing.



Well...they're both. The Apple CCK adapters _are _simply lightning to USB adapters.

CCK2: https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MD821AM/A/lightning-to-usb-camera-adapter
CCK3: https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MK0W2AM/A/lightning-to-usb-3-camera-adapter


----------



## clerkpalmer

DancingBlue said:


> Well...they're both. The Apple CCK adapters _are _simply lightning to USB adapters.
> 
> CCK2: https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MD821AM/A/lightning-to-usb-camera-adapter
> CCK3: https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MK0W2AM/A/lightning-to-usb-3-camera-adapter


Hence my confusion. Thanks.


----------



## DancingBlue

clerkpalmer said:


> Hence my confusion. Thanks.



No prob 

Yeah, Apple's done a terrible job naming these things.


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## frustration101 (Nov 6, 2018)

Wow! Woke up to loads of reply messages. Thank you all. Very informative. Will go for the smaller CCK then.
Hopefully I’ll notice a difference over the apple dongle. I find the bass a bit flat compared to the headphone port of my old iPhone 6.


----------



## frustration101

PeteMtl said:


> You will probably not like what I have to say, but I think the DFB is only marginally better than the Apple dongle that comes with the iPhone X. For a significative difference, you should have chosen the DFR. The Apple dongle that you connect in the lightning output connector of the iPhone X has a very capable DAC from cirrus logic, it’s a delta sigma design, just like the ESS9010 in your DFB. Morover, the output provided by the dongle is similar to the output of other iPhones, typically about 0.9V to 1.0Vrms. The op amp used by Apple is very competent. The DFB has a voltage output only 20% higher at 1.2Vrms. By comparison, the DFR has a 2.1vrms output, similar to any cd player and 2x higher than an iPhone alone. Moreover, the Apple dongle is very well made, providing a first class sound output.
> 
> Check out this review: https://www.kenrockwell.com/apple/lightning-adapter-audio-quality.htm
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info. Just read that review. Oh dear. Hopefully not wasting my money then. Got it secondhand for £55 though so that’s something at least!


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## a-LeXx (Nov 6, 2018)

Hifi98 said:


> I use my dragonfly primarily with my 400s’ from Hifiman. The impedance of those is 22Ω and I can comfortably listen to the DAC at half volume. The Audioquest dragonfly red is really meant for more sensitive headphones and IEM’s. I don’t think it could drive 600Ω cans. The Red is ideal for headphone of an impedance of 100Ω+ but I’m not convinced that an impedance 6x higher than the ideal is going to work. I would look towards a bigger portable amp like the Sony PHA1A portable DAC witch has an Impedance of 8-600Ω.



Actually, DFR has exactly the same power specs as the Impacto amp from Beyer does, and that one was designed to drive T1 at 600 Ohm. DFR can output around 50mW into 32 Ohm and around 7mW into 600 Ohm. Still plenty for a T1 that has sensitivity of 102dB/mW. So, you can almost reach 110dB SPL with a DFR. Based on the very similar specs, I believe both DFR and Impacto are using exactly the same headphone amp frm ESS, probably a SABRE9601K...


----------



## a-LeXx

I've posted this one in a separate thread, but maybe it's better to ask this question here:

does anyone know how the volume control between DFR and iOS works?

According to Audioquest, DFR has a 64-steps digital volume control.

However, on any iOS device, I can change the volume in a much finer granularity using the volume slider (not the up/down buttons, those only give 16 coarse steps).

Which leads me to believe, that with iOS, volume is not being changed using the DFRs internal bit-perfect circuitry (so, the volume in a HW is always just set to max), but instead via SW in the phone itself, leading to a lower dynamic range and a higher SNR at lower volumes with very sensitive IEMs or headphones.

Any comments?


----------



## mykeldg

Having tried all (dongle, DFB and DFR) -- there is a bigger difference between the iphone dongle and black than the black with the red, in my personal experience using full sized headphones. It really depends on your headphones -- i only use DF on my full sized headphones. I do not bother with external amp/dacs for IEMs.

That said, iphone Dongle should sound a bit better than iphone 6 jack. It does have less bass but its more neutral and a bit more holographic than the headphone jack.(atleast on my 6s).


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## PeteMtl (Nov 7, 2018)

mykeldg said:


> Having tried all (dongle, DFB and DFR) -- there is a bigger difference between the iphone dongle and black than the black with the red, in my personal experience using full sized headphones. It really depends on your headphones -- i only use DF on my full sized headphones. I do not bother with external amp/dacs for IEMs.
> 
> That said, iphone Dongle should sound a bit better than iphone 6 jack. It does have less bass but its more neutral and a bit more holographic than the headphone jack.(atleast on my 6s).



What « full sized headphones » have you used to conclude this? If you look at my signature, you will see that I own 18 ohms « full sized headphones » and 600 ohms « full sized headphones », and  a few at 24 ohms, 65 ohms, 150 ohms and 300 ohms. They do not behave the same way with the dongle or the DFR. All of these headphones have quite different sensitivity levels and therefore had different voltage and power requirements to be optimally driven. Your comment isn’t quite meaningful if you are not more specific on the headphones used in your personal experience to conclude the way you do.


----------



## mykeldg

PeteMtl said:


> What « full sized headphones » have you used to conclude this? If you look at my signature, you will see that I own 18 ohms « full sized headphones » and 600 ohms « full sized headphones », and  a few at 24 ohms, 65 ohms, 150 ohms and 300 ohms. They do not behave the same way with the dongle or the DFR. All of these headphones have quite different sensitivity levels and therefore had different voltage and power requirements to be optimally driven. Your comment isn’t quite meaningful if you are not more specific on the headphones used in your personal experience to conclude the way you do.



good catch! yes I tend to agree -- my observation is limited to efficient Full sized cans only since I used Momentum Over Ear and ATH MSR7. Both of these can be easily driven by iPhone headphone out / dongles.

Using the Momentums: RED & Black is almost identical sounding, with the differences I could not put my finger on. On the MSR7, I was able to observe some refinement of the red as it is so much more resolving than the Senns, but sound sig is still very close /almost the same.

On the Dongle vs Black using efficient cans - there is a decent improvement here.  there is just a very clean / energetic presentation from the dragonflys that I was happy to end my amp/dac upgrades.  If others have high impedance cans, going red is definitely the logical choice.


----------



## a-LeXx

Well, Momentums are neither really very resolving nor do they have any soundstage to speak of.   So, the only thing they might be helpful with, is judging the overall tonality, not much more...


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## PeteMtl (Nov 8, 2018)

a-LeXx said:


> Well, Momentums are neither really very resolving nor do they have any soundstage to speak of.   So, the only thing they might be helpful with, is judging the overall tonality, not much more...



Momentums on-ear and over-ear were specially created for street/portable usage, kind of Senn’s « for  grown up » answer to the Beats, B&W, JBL and other street headphones (the Senn’s « teen » answer was more the Urbanite, also available as on-ears, over-ears and Bluetooth, just like the newest folding Momentums, now called HD1 in some countries). These two lines of street life products were developped a couple of years after Sennheiser tried without a large success  to push into the streets the fabulous (but not catching up with street people) HD25 and its Amperior street version. With Momentum’s 18 ohms impedance and their 113db/1vrms sensitivity, these headphones were designed to be used with portable gear without any need for extra amping. No need for DFR, DFB or any other headphone amp with these. Just enjoy their smooth grown up sound directly from your portable gear, iPhone dongle or whatever. No need for any extra amping here. None. Nada. Niet. Rien, Pantoute...


----------



## a-LeXx (Nov 9, 2018)

PeteMtl said:


> Momentums on-ear and over-ear were specially created for street/portable usage, kind of Senn’s « for  grown up » answer to the Beats, B&W, JBL and other street headphones (the Senn’s « teen » answer was more the Urbanite, also available as on-ears, over-ears and Bluetooth, just like the newest folding Momentums, now called HD1 in some countries). These two lines of street life products were developped a couple of years after Sennheiser tried without a large success  to push into the streets the fabulous (but not catching up with street people) HD25 and its Amperior street version. With Momentum’s 18 ohms impedance and their 113db/1vrms sensitivity, these headphones were designed to be used with portable gear without any need for extra amping. No need for DFR, DFB or any other headphone amp with these. Just enjoy their smooth grown up sound directly from your portable gear, iPhone dongle or whatever. No need for any extra amping here. None. Nada. Niet. Rien, Pantoute...



Dragonfly R and even more so B is in a first place a DAC and not an amp. For example a t5p is also a headphone for mobile use, also extremely sensitive and low impedance, and also can be driven by any mobile device. But it makes a world of a difference if you plug them directly into an hp out or into a dragonfly or even into a draginfly used as DAC only with a dedicated hp amp.
As an amp, dragonfly, no mattet whether R/B is very comparable to an iDevice's own amp. Although dragonfly R on paper can drive 2.1V, it's only into high impedance of 100kOhm range.

Into low impedance, e. g. 32 Ohm, both dragonflies can only drive around 1.1V without clipping. An iPhone 6 can drive 1V, into the same load, the difference is negligible...

With momentum and dragonfly, it's like with pearls before swine... They sound not bad off any source, but never really great.

Nothing against Momentum, they are just a mid-fi, very mobile and very good isolating hp and are good in that, I use my own pair almost every day. But they are not a pair of headphones that would suddenly sound 'magical' with a better source..


----------



## KraftD1

If anyone is interested the USB-C to USB adapter for the new iPad Pro works with the DFR.  Another $20 dongle thing, but it does work and good that it does as there is no headphone out.


----------



## PeteMtl

KraftD1 said:


> If anyone is interested the USB-C to USB adapter for the new iPad Pro works with the DFR.  Another $20 dongle thing, but it does work and good that it does as there is no headphone out.



Good to know, thanks for the info


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## civciv (Nov 10, 2018)

Hi to all.

Do you think that buying DFR and using it with Samsung Note 9 is a wise move? AFAIK, Note9 has a Cirrus Logic made DAC. (Exynos model)

Currently I have a Sennheiser HD598 and planning to buy HD58x. Also have Fiio A3 amp.


----------



## PeteMtl (Nov 10, 2018)

civciv said:


> Hi to all.
> 
> Do you think that buying DFR and using it with Samsung Note 9 is a wise move? AFAIK, Note9 has a Cirrus Logic made DAC. (Exynos model)
> 
> Currently I have a Sennheiser HD598 and planning to buy HD58x. Also have Fiio A3 amp.



Maybe I may answer your question, since I own the DFR, the HD58X and the HD598. I do not own a Samsung phone, my portable sources are rather in the Apple family. Both the DFR and the HD58X are very good products, which I fully recommend. It is not the case with the HD598, not a bad priduct, but not for me, too bass shy, I call it my « TV headphone », as it is very comfortable and produces spacious sound, but not great for music in my opinion. The HD598 is a low impedance open over ear headphone. It doesn’t need an amp with most sources. Same goes for the HD58X, although it’s a higher impedance model, it is quite sensitive and efficient and therefore should be okay without amping. I use it all the time with my iPad or with my iPhone X with the lightning dongle. Which only provides 1V of output in both cases, but quite enough for the HD58X. I’m not sure what is the max output voltage of your Samsung Note 9, but I would bet its output voltage is quite similar to my 1V sources. So if its the case, I’m not sure that the DFR is needed. Probably not for amping your HD58X or HD598. Understand me: the DFR is a great product, proving a stellar DAC with a digital volume amp capable of 2.1V output, but is it necessary for your headphones? I doubt it. Your Samsung has probably enough output voltage to properly drive your low impedance HD598 and your higher impedance but very efficient HD58X. So it comes down to the sound quality of your Samsung gear (the sound quality of the Note 9’s internal DAC and first rate op amp components). As I said, I’m not a Samsung guy, but the Note 9 is a top of the line product from a top Android manufacturer, so I would bet again that the sound quality and component quality of your Samsung’s sound output are probably first rate and good enough. I know it is the case with Apple gear, as they use first rate Cirrus Logic DACs and first rate op amps in their portable products. So is the DFR an overkill in your case? My hypothesis is that it is most probably an overkill. But only you may decide if it is worth the upgrade at a price of USD 200$. Will it really improve on your Note 9´s own sound quality output, using its internal DAC and op amps? Let us know, by trying it out and comparing with and without the DFR, I’m curious. As I said before, the DFR is a great product, an outstanding product in my opinion soundwise, it’s my goto portable DAC/amp whenever I need a 2.1V output, such as with my HD6XX headphones, but I do not use it with my HD58X most of the time, it’s not needed in my Apple source setups. By the way, Apple also uses Cirrus logic DACs in their recent equipement., just like your Note 9. Just my 2 cents ...


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## a-LeXx (Nov 10, 2018)

civciv said:


> Hi to all.
> 
> Do you think that buying DFR and using it with Samsung Note 9 is a wise move? AFAIK, Note9 has a Cirrus Logic made DAC. (Exynos model)
> 
> Currently I have a Sennheiser HD598 and planning to buy HD58x. Also have Fiio A3 amp.



It depends. This seems to be a European version, and European products are limited in max. volume. E.g. an international ipod can output 1V, a european one only 0.5V.

Would be probably similar with your Note. Sound quality would be probably a matter of taste, Cirrus and ESS Sabre do sound similar, depending on the actual implementation. So, if your Note is loud enough with your headphones, there is no actual need to go for an external DAC.

Keep in mind, android upsamples everything to 48kHz when using internal DAC. This is degrading the quality quite a bit...


----------



## civciv (Nov 10, 2018)

Thank you for your detailed answers.

It seems that I'll stick with the Note9's internal DAC.

@PeteMtl you have made me confident about my buying plan about HD58X. Thanks.

@a-LeXx I don't know about the EU model's output voltage but I mostly listen to music at max volume. Maybe I should measure the output voltage.

Edit: I have just measured the output voltage of the phone. It gives 0.5V from the phone and 2.05V from the Fiio A3.

Now I should find a way to break the EU limitation other than rooting the phone. Hope there is one.
Because the Note9's sound quality very good and detailed. Just the output power is not enough. While I'm mobile using the Fiio is inconvenient. It adds bulk, needs recharging and I don't like cables much.


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## PeteMtl (Nov 10, 2018)

civciv said:


> Thank you for your detailed answers.
> 
> It seems that I'll stick with the Note9's internal DAC.
> 
> ...



I love my HD58X. I must say that I still prefer the HD6XX for its midrange and overall sound, but the HD58X has also a few pluses over the HD6XX, such as a clearer and more dynamic slightly W shaped balanced sound, which means more extended and tighter sub bass and bass, clearer overall sound and more exciting highs. They also are easier to drive without additional amping for portable usage. But the mids of the HD6XX are not beaten by the HD58X. By the way, to really transform the HD58X into « portable » gear, I bought a NewFantasia aftermarket cable on Amazon.com. The cable is 100% compatible with 600 series Sennheiser headphones, its relatively cheap (I paid like 25$ if I recall) and the cable includes a mic and a remote on cable, so that I really may use the HD58X on the move with my iPhone, and answer calls using the headphones. Obvisously it’s not a closed back headphones, so it will never be a good choice for bus, trains, airplanes or subway usage, because of its open design, letting the outside noises in and the music out... but I consider the open design as an advantage when walking in the streets for security reasons because I may hear the outside noises, like cars, trucks and people around me, so I won’t be hit by a car while taking a walk with my headphones...and the sound quality is first rate. I dare anybody to find a better sounding open backed headphone for 149$. Even for 200$ or 300$... well the HD6XX, I must say, but they absolutely need the DFR with my portable gear, not like the HD58X. And as I said, both headphone haves pluses (and minuses) soundwise, so I would understand that overall some would prefer one over the other depending on your taste, but objectively there is not a true overall winner between the HD6xx and the HD58x, although it’s a matter of personal preference.


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## PeteMtl (Nov 10, 2018)

civciv said:


> Thank you for your detailed answers.
> 
> It seems that I'll stick with the Note9's internal DAC.
> 
> ...



If I may add this comment: If you are using an european model and if its true that european models are limited to a 0,5v output (btw I have no knowledge if this fact, I like in Canada), then the use of the 2.1V capable DFR would make plenty of sense to override that voltage limitation and procure at least 1V of output, which is what I consider the optimal voltage level needed to enjoy the HD58X. I must also say if you want to save some money that the cheaper 99$ Dragonfly Black would also do the trick for your needs, since its output is rated at 1.2V, not enough for the HD6XX but quite enough for your HD58X and HD598.


----------



## megabigeye

civciv said:


> Hi to all.
> 
> Do you think that buying DFR and using it with Samsung Note 9 is a wise move? AFAIK, Note9 has a Cirrus Logic made DAC. (Exynos model)
> 
> Currently I have a Sennheiser HD598 and planning to buy HD58x. Also have Fiio A3 amp.


I have the SnapDragon version of the S9, not the Exynos version of the Note 9, and I don't have any of your headphones, but...
To my ear and with my headphones, the DFR is a pretty significant upgrade to the S9's sound in almost all respects.  I assume that Samsung models of a generation sound more or less the same.

That being said, why don't you test your headphones with the phone and see if it satisfies?  If it sounds good to you and you don't feel like you're missing much (aside from what strangers on the internet say), then there's no real need to upgrade yet.


----------



## SoundDouble

civciv said:


> Now I should find a way to break the EU limitation other than rooting the phone. Hope there is one.
> Because the Note9's sound quality very good and detailed. Just the output power is not enough. While I'm mobile using the Fiio is inconvenient. It adds bulk, needs recharging and I don't like cables much.



I would check xda-developers forum for the note9. Might have some luck there. I know on some phones people are able to get rid of the volume limits, etc... Good luck


----------



## SoundDouble

I actually have another reason for posting in the thread. Just picked up a dfr for use with my HTC 10. I had issues with it and thought it might be useful for other people if they search here.

The dfr was working in UAPP, which i love, but anything else didn't give sound. I also had this problem with another brand usb dac.
None of the phone or app settings helped.
I started with Android nougat so I updated the phone to oreo 8.0. This didn't help but it gave me bluetooth AAC so i was happier.
At that point I noticed that the boomsound / dolby was still popping up in notifications while dfr was plugged in. It's only supposed to turn on when using the phone speakers. So i figured it might be a HTC software conflicting with the usb audio.
I was already rooted so I switched to LineageOS, non-HTC software, and now it works everywhere.

A little more neutral than HTC and possibly quieter background. More power using the DFR, and little more detail in the highs. At least that is what I feel.


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## megabigeye (Nov 11, 2018)

Nunook said:


> I actually have another reason for posting in the thread. Just picked up a dfr for use with my HTC 10. I had issues with it and thought it might be useful for other people if they search here.
> 
> The dfr was working in UAPP, which i love, but anything else didn't give sound. I also had this problem with another brand usb dac.
> None of the phone or app settings helped.
> ...


The main drawback I've noticed with UAPP is that it likes to take control of the DFR and not let other apps use it. If I allow UAPP to open when I connect my DFR, in order to get it to work with Spotify, for instance, I have to unplug the DFR, quit UAPP, sometimes (but not always) force stop UAPP, quit Spotify, replug DFR, make sure UAPP doesn't open, reopen Spotify. Kind of a PITA, and I blame UAPP, not the Dragonfly.
For that reason I don't use UAPP as the default for the DFR, even though that would be more convenient since I use it far more than Spotify.


----------



## Captain Koons

civciv said:


> Hi to all.
> 
> Do you think that buying DFR and using it with Samsung Note 9 is a wise move? AFAIK, Note9 has a Cirrus Logic made DAC. (Exynos model)
> 
> Currently I have a Sennheiser HD598 and planning to buy HD58x. Also have Fiio A3 amp.



I used my DF Red with HD650 and S8+ Snapdragon version... DF Red for me was a big upgrade to SQ and volume. Without it, max volume is good enough for my HD-25's but nowhere near loud enough for HD650. DF Red changes that completely for the better. You just need to purchase and play all your music through UAPP. It is a fantastic app which will play files on your network and on the device, and can link to Tidal and Google Music but I've not tried that.

I also had to upgrade the DAC firmware as it wasn't loud enough at first and had me worried.

Is it a wise move? That's questionable, open back headphones aren't really portable while the DF is a portable DAC. You may find yourself wanting to upgrade in future. It does a great job that's for sure.


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## PeteMtl (Nov 12, 2018)

Captain Koons said:


> I used my DF Red with HD650 and S8+ Snapdragon version... DF Red for me was a big upgrade to SQ and volume. Without it, max volume is good enough for my HD-25's but nowhere near loud enough for HD650. DF Red changes that completely for the better. You just need to purchase and play all your music through UAPP. It is a fantastic app which will play files on your network and on the device, and can link to Tidal and Google Music but I've not tried that.
> 
> I also had to upgrade the DAC firmware as it wasn't loud enough at first and had me worried.
> 
> Is it a wise move? That's questionable, open back headphones aren't really portable while the DF is a portable DAC. You may find yourself wanting to upgrade in future. It does a great job that's for sure.



Your comment makes sense because driving the HD650 is not the same thing as driving the HD58X or HD25. I own the three headphones and I own the DFR. Although the three headphones are considered sensitive and efficient (db/V or db/mw), the HD650 with its 300 ohms nominal impedance (and higher than that in the bass region) needs quite a lot more voltage (I would say that the 2.1V provided by the DFR is very welcome, and for living room experience I would recommend even a bit more voltage for full blasted music experience...). The HD58X has a nominal impedance of 150 ohms, and will provide acceptable performance with about 1V (although slighty higher would be better for full blasted music experience, which is not by the way the music level I normally look for when listening to headphones...). The HD25 with its 65 ohms nominal impedance doesn’t even need one half of 1V of voltage (but draws far more current than the HD58X or HD650). The real benefit of the DFR really depends on the sensitivity and impedance of your headphones. For some it makes a bigger difference (HD650/6xx) than other very sensitive lower impendance headphones such as the HD58X (150 ohms), HD25 (65 ohms), HD598 (about 50 ohms if I recall) or HD1/Momentums (about 18 or 24 ohms if I recall)... The output of a good phone or tablet  (1V) or the DFB (1.2v) is enough for all these headphones except HD650/6xx, provided the op amp of the phone or tablet is of good quality and the DAC is okay. As I said before, all Apple products pass this test, and some Android products too (variable from one model or brand to another), provided that your product is not limited by the EU audio restrictions.


----------



## mephiska

What are other's experience with using this on the new iPad Pro?  I have the 11" and just got the official Apple USB-C to USB adapter and plugged my Dragonfly Red into it and it's not working as expected with the Onkyo HiRes player.  It keeps downsampling to 44.1khz.  I once had it at 48khz, but that was one time and I can't get it to repeat it.  The source material I'm trying it with is 192khz FLAC files.  

I have been reliably using the DFR with my iPhone X and the CCK to get proper bit perfect playback with the Onkyo player.  These are files purchased through the Onkyo store, full "HiRes" 192 or 96khz.


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## KraftD1

Don't have Onkyo, but get proper colors when streaming content via home sharing to the music app and DFR for output.  192 comes through magenta.


----------



## kushanukum

I updated the latest firmware on my DFR on my Mac and ended up losing the left channel. Has anybody had that problem?


----------



## weissglut

Without having read the whole thread: Is there actually any alternative to the DFR if I need a DAC that runs on iPad/iPhone/Android without additional power source and is capable of driving low sensitivy headphones?

At the moment I have a DFB here, that works fine with my German Maestro GMP 35 phones (35 Ohm, 101 dB (1 kHz, 1 mW), 100 mW max) but not with my Fostex T50RP (50 Ohm, 92dB (1kHz, 1mW), 3000 mW max). Maybe the DFR works well with the Fostex, but not with the German Maestros?


----------



## SoundDouble (Nov 14, 2018)

2 days ago I was using the dfr with CTM vintage series. Which are all around 18ohm and  110-120db. The dfr had no problem with them and the vs4 sounded sweet btw.

Edit: I misread the last post. Sorry.


----------



## DancingBlue

kushanukum said:


> I updated the latest firmware on my DFR on my Mac and ended up losing the left channel. Has anybody had that problem?



No problem here. Updated my DFR to 1.07 when it came out, on my mac, via the audioquest utility.


----------



## buke9

weissglut said:


> Without having read the whole thread: Is there actually any alternative to the DFR if I need a DAC that runs on iPad/iPhone/Android without additional power source and is capable of driving low sensitivy headphones?
> 
> At the moment I have a DFB here, that works fine with my German Maestro GMP 35 phones (35 Ohm, 101 dB (1 kHz, 1 mW), 100 mW max) but not with my Fostex T50RP (50 Ohm, 92dB (1kHz, 1mW), 3000 mW max). Maybe the DFR works well with the Fostex, but not with the German Maestros?


 Well the Black is 1.2v output and the Red is 2.1v so quite a difference there. The Red does a decent job with my Massdrop T-X0’s but does takes almost full volume to get the bass to get kicking good.


----------



## Fasterball

Guys I'm curious and nervous about a purchase I just made. A company called Bonaoffices is selling the dragonfly red for 150.00 new. It is difficult right now to buy these for 150.00 used on eBay. The deal seemed too good to pass up but now I'm worried it may be a scam. I paid through PayPal. Their website seems legit. I'm worried about counterfeits as they are not an authorized Audioquest dealer. How can they offer this at 150.00?


----------



## megabigeye

Hmm... I might consider cancelling the order, if for no other reason than that the warranty will not be granted from an unauthorized dealer.

Otherwise, you can Google "bonaoffices site review" or "bonaoffices scam" and look at people's reviews, etc., about the site. I do this for pretty much every new site I order from. Be wary, though, that people are more likely to write a complaining review than a praising one. Look at the dates of the written reviews-- if they're all years old then they may be irrelevant now; if they're written within a few days of each other they may be fake. Also look to see if the complaints are common to each other or completely different. If reviews use strikingly similar language it can be another indicator that the reviews are not legit.

Good luck!


----------



## JM1979 (Dec 4, 2018)

Long time reader here and I finally signed up to be able to post.

I’ve had a DragonFly red for a couple of years now. I’ve paired them with Oppo PM-3’s, primarily for use when traveling on an airplane. This set up has taken me to the novice audiophile that I am today.

I’m now wanting to get a nice pair (under $1,000) of open back cans. What I am struggling with is, does the Dragonfly Red have enough power to push a good set of open backs?

A friend of mine let me borrow his Beyerdynamic DT880 250ohm. I used this in my iPhoneX->Jitterbug->DFR set up and came away with two thoughts. 1. Maybe the DFR doesn’t have enough power to really push those cans or 2. Maybe I don’t love the sound of those Beyers.

I did listen to the Audeze LCD-X through my set up and was pretty impressed.

So now for the newbie questions:
1. Does the DFR get close to maximizing the potential of the LCD-X?
2. What sub $1,000 headphones does the DFR excel with?
3. Is the DFR holding me back and should I also be looking at something like the Chord Mojo to replace the DFR in my set up and then be able to push most cans in the $1000 range?


----------



## megabigeye

Hey, I use the DFR with the PM-3 as well!  Pretty great pairing.
My experience with the DFR and full-sized, open cans is limited to the HD 650 and the DT 1990.  I'd say the DFR can drive both to satisfying volumes, but detail and space around instruments suffers slightly.  It drives the HD 650 slightly better.  I realize this doesn't answer any of your three questions, but it might give you a little more insight into what you were hearing with the DT 880.

The DFR also does well in DAC only mode, so you might also consider just getting a decent amp to go with whatever headphones you get.


----------



## buke9

JM1979 said:


> Long time reader here and I finally signed up to be able to post.
> 
> I’ve had a DragonFly red for a couple of years now. I’ve paired them with Oppo PM-3’s, primarily for use when traveling on an airplane. This set up has taken me to the novice audiophile that I am today.
> 
> ...


I recently picked up the DFR to use as a dac mostly for meets but it can drive several of my open backs pretty well tried the HD-6xx’s, HE-500 and HD-800’s and I don’t think that power is a problem with any of those. I will agree with @megabigeye it does lack a bit in detail and separation at least for me when compared to the Chord Mojo but that is over 2x the price. The Mojo and HD-650(6xx’s same difference) is not one of my favorites and would just as soon use the DFR with those. The other question is the Mojo better I think so but at a premium


----------



## JM1979

Thank you both for the feedback. That’s very helpful.


----------



## WilliamLeonhart

Fasterball said:


> Guys I'm curious and nervous about a purchase I just made. A company called Bonaoffices is selling the dragonfly red for 150.00 new. It is difficult right now to buy these for 150.00 used on eBay. The deal seemed too good to pass up but now I'm worried it may be a scam. I paid through PayPal. Their website seems legit. I'm worried about counterfeits as they are not an authorized Audioquest dealer. How can they offer this at 150.00?



Both Paypal and eBay offers protection so don’t worry too much. As for that price, well I’m having the chance to buy either Dragonfly at half the price (buy one get one free). Some manufacturers will sell to distributors at half the price, and when they need to clear stock, all kind of craziness can happen.


----------



## Fasterball

I don't mean to offend anyone here and I  have loved the Dragonfly Red, but for black friday I picked up the monoprice usb dac that has very similar specs but costs a quarter of what the Red costs.  I've listened to both now and aside from not being as bright as the Red the monoprice dac sounds like it's on par with the Red.  What am I missing? No MQA -  is there anything else? The pairing of the Red with the Nighthawks is for me absolute perfection. The brightness of the Red with the darkness of the Nighthawks checks off a lot of boxes for my tastes but when I'm using other headphones that don't have the Nighthawks signature I'm not sure the Red is worth it.


----------



## Walkiria77

Max bitrate red?


----------



## megabigeye

Here.
All the specs are there.
And I don't really like to be _that_ guy, but it's not 1/4 the price of the DFR, it's on sale for $79, regularly $99.


----------



## Fasterball

megabigeye said:


> Here.
> All the specs are there.
> And I don't really like to be _that_ guy, but it's not 1/4 the price of the DFR, it's on sale for $79, regularly $99.


Ok a 1/4 of the price was an exaggeration. I got it for 69.00 on black Friday.


----------



## megabigeye (Dec 8, 2018)

Fasterball said:


> Ok a 1/4 of the price was an exaggeration. I got it for 69.00 on black Friday.


Sorry for being an irascible pedant. My coffee hadn't quite kicked in yet. :sheepishgrin:

Looks like a real bargain. At it's current price it could almost be an impulse purchase... although you say it's less bright than the DFR and a reviewer says it has less bass. Does that mean it's rolled off at both ends?
Doesn't look like it has its own thread yet...  maybe you should start one?

And back on the DFR topic...
My USB-C to A converter has the annoying habit of disconnecting while in my pocket. I probably look like a total nutcase standing in the sidewalk swearing to myself.
Any recommendations for a USB-C to A adapter that fits the DFR a) snugly, and b) fully covers its plug?


----------



## Fasterball

megabigeye said:


> Sorry for being an irascible pedant. My coffee hadn't quite kicked in yet. :sheepishgrin:
> 
> Looks like a real bargain. At it's current price it could almost be an impulse purchase... although you say it's less bright than the DFR and a reviewer says it has less bass. Does that mean it's rolled off at both ends?
> Doesn't look like it has its own thread yet...  maybe you should start one?
> ...


It's bass is solid - I'm not hearing what that other reviewer heard.  I suppose that's possible. Does anyone know about the differences between the dac chips that were implemented in each device?


----------



## archy121 (Dec 10, 2018)

I have just bought iPhone MAX after upgrading from the 6. Very surprised and pleased with the audio output using the apple headphone adapter.
I had planned to use my LG V30 Quad DAC as a dedicated streaming DAP but the Max has exceeded its audio quality to my ears.

According to What HiFi review -

“The sound quality when listening via headphones has also improved. The general character is the same, but the XS Max is just a little clearer, more dynamic and punchier than the iPhone X’s already-accomplished sound.”
https://www.whathifi.com/reviews/apple-iphone-xs-max

From what I have read so far, the iPhone DAC is now in the external headphone adapter. So how can a phone upgrade improve the audio quality when the DAC in the adapter is same old one ?

I tested the same headphone adapter with the iPad Air and although it has similar signature the audio is not as detailed and immersive. I haven’t had the chance to try out the headphone adapter with other previous models of the iPhone but I’m beginning to think something else within the phone such as the amp or other digital processing is affecting the quality of the audio output. This could explain the perceived audio improvement from iPhone Max even though its using same old headphone adapter as output. If the basic adapter can output better sound than I’m wondering how much better can the DF improve if any using the latest phones.

I would really like to hear from someone who has paired up the DF with newest XS/MAX IPhones.
Would be ideal if you have used the DF already on a previous iPhone model as I want to know of any audio quality benefits as a result of using newer iphone.


----------



## 435279

archy121 said:


> From what I have read so far, the iPhone DAC is now in the external headphone adapter. So how can a phone upgrade improve the audio quality when the DAC in the adapter is same old one ?



It can't IMHO. You prefer your new shiny phone so it sounds better, its a placebo. Its the same with food, if the same food is presented on two different plates, but one is presented better that one will taste better.


----------



## west0ne

SteveOliver said:


> It can't IMHO. You prefer your new shiny phone so it sounds better, its a placebo. Its the same with food, if the same food is presented on two different plates, but one is presented better that one will taste better.



If both devices are sending a bitperfect signal to the DAC then there should be no difference. If one or both devices are doing any EQ, resampling or processing of any kind before passing a signal to the DAC then there may be a difference if the data is different.


----------



## 435279

west0ne said:


> If both devices are sending a bitperfect signal to the DAC then there should be no difference. If one or both devices are doing any EQ, resampling or processing of any kind before passing a signal to the DAC then there may be a difference if the data is different.



True I was assuming the same app was being used to play the music and the same settings. @archy121 make sure the new phone isn't applying some kind of audio "enhancement" or something.


----------



## radiocalm

Hello all, I apologize if this has already been answered, and I see it asked just above but... is anyone using the dragonfly red with the new iPhone XS Max? It’s upgrade time for me and I want to be able to plug the dragonfly straight in  and stream tidal just as I am on my iPhone 7.  I know Apple has a ton of detractors- I just like the ability to plug and play and not have to use a player like you would on some android phones. Thanks in advance for any thoughts.


----------



## archy121 (Dec 13, 2018)

west0ne said:


> If both devices are sending a bitperfect signal to the DAC then there should be no difference. If one or both devices are doing any EQ, resampling or processing of any kind before passing a signal to the DAC then there may be a difference if the data is different.



Its not just about bit perfect alone. As we know the Source components can effect the sound from the DAC - just like with  home hifi components. So it is possible that the iPhone XS is sending better signal to the DAC than previous models including my ipad Air.

@SteveOliver correct -  i used Tidal HiFi tracks from apps on both phones.




@radiocalm  I also have an XS and was considering getting a DF for Tidal MQA tracks. Than i found out the iPhone with  DF still can't natively play MQA tracks from the Tidal app and that's disappointing.

I was pleasantly surprised by the quality of the sound from the standard apple headphone adapter when listening to Tidal HiFi tracks and using Neutron Player for FLAC and DSD files.  The iPhone XS even. competes very well with my LG V30 Quad DAC. I think i prefer its clearer sound signature.

Now I'm not so sure how much more improvements the DF can bring or if its going to be the case of serious diminishing returns.

I'm keen to hear from others how much improvement the DF red can bring over the iphone xs with apple adapter.
How have you found the sound with the apple adapter ?


----------



## radiocalm

I figured it still wouldn’t do mqa, I just would like to know that when I plug it in it will work. I’m fine with flac on tidal from my phone. My dragonfly is the main way I listen to music because I love being portable. I have a mojo that I hardly use because it so bulky to carry when on a walk. I have the Apple headphone adapter as well and it sounds pretty good. There’s a difference when using the dfr - but like anything in this hobby, it’s a small difference. I have some really good iems and I honestly just feel weird plugging a super expensive iem into the Apple headphone adapter. It just feels wrong, even though sound quality wise it’s not a gigantic leap forward with the dfr. The Apple adapter is surprisingly convincing. I’m a little nutty though, as you have to be to love this hobby and I can’t see myself plugging my empire ears legend x into anything less than a dfr. Just feels weird. I’m crazy, what can I say. But yes the Apple adapter sounds pretty darn good for 10 bucks.


----------



## PeteMtl (Dec 13, 2018)

archy121 said:


> Its not just about bit perfect alone. As we know the Source components can effect the sound from the DAC - just like with  home hifi components. So it is possible that the iPhone XS is sending better signal to the DAC than previous models including my ipad Air.
> 
> @SteveOliver correct -  i used Tidal HiFi tracks from apps on both phones.
> 
> ...




I use both the Apple adapter DAC and the DFR. If you are talking of the law of diminishing returns, then I confirm that the Apple DAC adapter not only performs very well, but for 9$ you won’t find a better sounding unit even if you pay up to 10x the price. That said, the DFR is probably not that much better sounding, maybe has firmer sub bass and brighter/clearer upper treble, but the difference is negligible in my opinion. Yes the Apple dongle is that good sounding, equivalent to most Apple internal circuits (Macbook Pro, iPad Pro, iPhone 6S) and very close to the DFR. That said again, the DFR has a big advantage over the Apple adapter: it outputs at 2.1v instead of 0.95v and has the capacity to drive higher impedance and less efficient headphones. Therefore, if you use high efficient and lower impedance headphones, the Apple adapter will suffice and will provide great sound. That includes my Senn Momentum, HD25, Amperior, PX-100IIi and even my Senn/Massdrop HD58x in moderate listening. The DFR will start to shine with the HD58x but will really make a big difference with headphones such as my 300 ohms HD600 or HD6xx/650. The Apple adapter still will work with these, but the output will be limited and the sub bass capability will also be limited. But the DFR is priced at 200$, over 20x the price of the Apple Adapter. Yes the DFR also may be used with usb output of computers and provides 24bits/96k audio amd MQA. It all depends on your needs and your budget. Just don’t snob the Apple adapter because it’s worth 9$. It is a world class DAC/amp if your needs don’t exceed its output limitations


----------



## PeteMtl

archy121 said:


> Its not just about bit perfect alone. As we know the Source components can effect the sound from the DAC - just like with  home hifi components. So it is possible that the iPhone XS is sending better signal to the DAC than previous models including my ipad Air.
> 
> @SteveOliver correct -  i used Tidal HiFi tracks from apps on both phones.
> 
> ...



I use both the Apple adapter DAC and the DFR. If you are talking of the law of diminishing returns, then I confirm that the Apple DAC adapter not only performs very well, but for 9$ you won’t find a better sounding unit even if you pay up to 10x the price. That said, the DFR is probably not that much better sounding, maybe has firmer sub bass and brighter/clearer upper treble, but the difference is negligible in my opinion. Yes the Apple dongle is that good sounding, equivalent to most Apple internal circuits (Macbook Pro, iPad Pro, iPhone 6S) and very close to the DFR. That said again, the DFR has a big advantage over the Apple adapter: it outputs at 2.1v instead of 0.95v and has the capacity to drive higher impedance and less efficient headphones. Therefore, if you use high efficient and lower impedance headphones, the Apple adapter will suffice and will provide great sound. That includes my Senn Momentum, HD25, Amperior, PX-100IIi and even my Senn/Massdrop HD58x in moderate listening. The DFR will start to shine with the HD58x but will really make a big difference with headphones such as my 300 ohms HD600 or HD6xx/650. The Apple adapter still will work with these, but the output will be limited and the sub bass capability will also be limited. But the DFR is priced at 200$, over 20x the price of the Apple Adapter. Yes the DFR also may be used with usb output of computers and provides 24bits/96k audio amd MQA. It all depends on your needs and your budget. Just don’t snob the Apple adapter because it’s worth 9$. It is a world class DAC/amp if your needs don’t exceed its output limitations


----------



## archy121

PeteMtl said:


> ..It all depends on your needs and your budget. Just don’t snob the Apple adapter because it’s worth 9$. It is a world class DAC/amp if your needs don’t exceed its output limitations..



Great post keeping reality in touch. And as I suspected, worth getting DFR if you have high impedance cans to drive. 

@radiocalm i can understand what you mean as I feel the same. I wish they packaged the Apple
Packaged the headphone adapter a little better so that it doesn’t look so flimsy. Definitely not very durable. Wish they offered an upgrade product with a form factor like the one by Baseus that allows for simultaneous charging. 
I’m curious to know what DAC they are using.


----------



## PeteMtl (Dec 14, 2018)

archy121 said:


> Great post keeping reality in touch. And as I suspected, worth getting DFR if you have high impedance cans to drive.
> 
> @radiocalm i can understand what you mean as I feel the same. I wish they packaged the Apple
> Packaged the headphone adapter a little better so that it doesn’t look so flimsy. Definitely not very durable. Wish they offered an upgrade product with a form factor like the one by Baseus that allows for simultaneous charging.
> I’m curious to know what DAC they are using.





I agree with you that the Apple lightning DAC/amp is flimsy. However I own four of them (I leave them on each of my headphones cable) and none of them has yet failed. At 9$ a piece, if the worse happens, it’s not a big problem to order or pick up from the Apple Store or Best Buy a couple of them... I would agree and I would be a buyer of a more rugged and better looking unit from Apple like the one shown in your last post if such unit would exist from Apple, with a lightning connector like the 9$ dongle. Maybe pushing the output to 1.2v or even 1.5v like the Macbook Pro outputs would be great in such a small form factor... I would pay a few dollars more for that, maybe even up to 50$.


----------



## radiocalm

So I can now confirm that the dragonfly red does indeed work, plug and play with the iPhone max. Also, I hope my previous post didn’t seem snotty in any way, that was not my intent. I completely agree that the apple dongle sounds incredible and is VERY close to the sound of the dfr. Imagine what apple could do if they decided they wanted to make a $500 dac/amp... they have so much money and copious resources. What they have done for 9 bucks is insane. I was more poking fun at myself for feeling like I need to plug certain headphones into certain more expensive devices. I’ve gone full on crazy!!  As always thanks for the insight. Cheers!


----------



## archy121

radiocalm said:


> So I can now confirm that the dragonfly red does indeed work, plug and play with the iPhone max



So you along with PeteMtl have saved me $200 


Do you by any chance have an older iphone to see if it sounds diffefent to the MAX when used with the same adapter ?

Just came across this detailed review of the Apple  adapter which comes to same conclusion. 

https://www.kenrockwell.com/apple/lightning-adapter-audio-quality.htm


----------



## spdtdl

radiocalm said:


> So I can now confirm that the dragonfly red does indeed work, plug and play with the iPhone max.



Is that with the single CCK, or you need the dual one with power to provide extra juice?


----------



## radiocalm

I just use the single cck. Haven’t tried or heard the bigger one that allows you to charge at the same time. I don’t have an older iPhone to try it with. Strangely it does sound a little better to me with the new phone. That can’t be true I wouldn’t think, possibly a placebo effect as I really like my new phone. People say you can hear a difference in usb cables, power cables, etc. so maybe the way it moves the data to the dfr, that signal path is cleaner with the max. Or maybe it puts out a little more juice into the dfr. Who knows... I feel like it sounds different- wider and more holographic on the new phone. But again, maybe I’m dreaming it. I have checked that I have no eq on or anything of the such so it’s just sending straight signal... all sorts of schools of thought on that stuff. I’m not a big believer in cables and such, but I’m also open to any possibilities.


----------



## JoshG1217

Hey guys,

Maybe this is buried in the 300 pages here somewhere so apologies if I missed it, but wondering about the DF red vs Ifi dsd nano black label and the fiio Q 1 mkii. Would like to drive V Moda Crossfade and Amiron Home via phone. I picked up the AK 70 mkii, but quickly returned it. Ilike using power amp, and the battery on that thing was awful, but it did sound great. 

Thoughts? Looking to buy in January.


----------



## JM1979 (Dec 20, 2018)

JoshG1217 said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> Maybe this is buried in the 300 pages here somewhere so apologies if I missed it, but wondering about the DF red vs Ifi dsd nano black label and the fiio Q 1 mkii. Would like to drive V Moda Crossfade and Amiron Home via phone. I picked up the AK 70 mkii, but quickly returned it. Ilike using power amp, and the battery on that thing was awful, but it did sound great.
> 
> Thoughts? Looking to buy in January.



I had a pair of Beyer DT 880 250 ohm and the DFR could push them but it was very boring and uninspiring. I didn’t find DFR to be a good pairing with 250 ohm beyers.  I think you need more of an amp than what the DFR has to get good performance from 250 ohm beyers like the Amiron. 

I can’t speak to the rest of the equipment you mentioned but hope that helps.


----------



## robo24

I have the DF Red & Fiio Q10 Mark II driving HD650 and HD700. New at this so don't know correct terminology and such. For the price, various settings, options, ease of use with an iPhone, and overall sound I prefer the Fiio and am probably going to sell my DF Red. Definitely go for balanced cables if you get the Fiio. They definitely get louder via balanced. I find the iPhone solution of the huge adapter, then the DF kind of obnoxious to deal with in comparison.


----------



## JoshG1217

Thank you very much guys. I appreciate your thorough responses. My work bought us gifts, so I actually requested the IFi nano idsd black label, which is pretty sweet. I may grab the Fiio for portability, but we will see how it goes with the IFi.

Thanks again.


----------



## archy121

robo24 said:


> I find the iPhone solution of the huge adapter, then the DF kind of obnoxious to deal with in comparison.




I don’t have an external DAC for my iPhone XS MAX and if I did I would get this 10cm lightning to micro USB adapter - no need for intermediate apple camera kit cable.

https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/VsKUHSp

BTW what Iphone are you using ?
I’m interested in a comparison of XS with apple headphone adapter vs the FIIO or DF black.


----------



## Slaphead

JM1979 said:


> I had a pair of Beyer DT 880 250 ohm and the DFR could push them but it was very boring and uninspiring. I didn’t find DFR to be a good pairing with 250 ohm beyers.  I think you need more of an amp than what the DFR has to get good performance from 250 ohm beyers like the Amiron.
> 
> I can’t speak to the rest of the equipment you mentioned but hope that helps.



I dunno, but I use my Beyer DT1770s with a DFR and an old iPod as a "round the house" portable, and the DFR drives them fine - actually not just fine, but bloody well in fact. The DT880s can be a bit boring and uninspiring anyway as that's what they're supposed to be - a neutral headphone, not to mention the DT880's drivers are not as sensitive as the Tesla drivers in current Beyer HPs.

Based on my experience I'd say that the DFR will probably do fine with the Amirons, as from what I understand they have pretty much the same driver as the DT1770 and the DT1990.


----------



## robo24

archy121 said:


> I don’t have an external DAC for my iPhone XS MAX and if I did I would get this 10cm lightning to micro USB adapter - no need for intermediate apple camera kit cable.
> 
> https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/VsKUHSp
> 
> ...


Also XS Max here. That cable says specifically that it won't work with any MFI certified device, such as the Fiio Q 10 Mark II. Almost bought a couple before I read that in the description. I was in Taipei recently and spent hours checking dozens of shops and couldn't find a USB micro to Lightning cable anywhere. You definitely need the Apple adapter for any DF.


----------



## archy121 (Dec 21, 2018)

robo24 said:


> Also XS Max here. That cable says specifically that it won't work with any MFI certified device, such as the Fiio Q 10 Mark II. Almost bought a couple before I read that in the description. I was in Taipei recently and spent hours checking dozens of shops and couldn't find a USB micro to Lightning cable anywhere. You definitely need the Apple adapter for any DF.



You are right. I didn’t realise it wouldn’t play happy with MFI devices.

I was positively surprised by the quality of sound from the XS MAX coming from an iPhone 6.
Other than being able to play high impedance headphones, does the FIIO in DAC/AMP mode offer clear sonic benefits over using the Apple headphone adapter ? Same for DFR.


----------



## gerb0075

gerb0075 said:


> What specific ios source device are you using?  I am having a similar problem with a Dragonfly Red through the usb-c port of a new ipad pro 2018.  The light color remains at 44.1 khz even though the Qobuz app is sending 24/96. Even more interesting is that when I attach the same dac to the lightning port of my iphone Xs Max or ipad mini 4, the light color changes to reflect the correct output resolution - so it appears to be a usb-c issue.



Is anyone else having this issue?


----------



## revand

This Christmas has a surprisingly nice gift for all the music lovers, and owners of AQ DRF devices! As you can see now I am able to use my DRF Red as a "renderer" on a Chinese mobile phone. USB Audio Player Pro (UAPP) Android application version 5 is able to unfold the MQA files received from TIDAL Masters to core level, and my DRF Red is making the second unfold.
I am using a Nonda USB C to USB adapter, which provides an OTG function.
The sound quality is wonderful!!! Even better sounding than using the Windows desktop application on my Lenovo notebook.
Now AQ DRF Red is working as a renderer with my Xiaomi MI8 mobile phone, which does not have a high quality DAC, and I can enjoy excellent sound quality!
Theoretical scheme how a renderer is working together with the software / application unfolding:
 

Dragonfly s will now have a new boom, since owners of mobile phones with average DAC-s can enjoy music on a much higher level with Dargonfly s.


----------



## gerb0075

mephiska said:


> What are other's experience with using this on the new iPad Pro?  I have the 11" and just got the official Apple USB-C to USB adapter and plugged my Dragonfly Red into it and it's not working as expected with the Onkyo HiRes player.  It keeps downsampling to 44.1khz.  I once had it at 48khz, but that was one time and I can't get it to repeat it.  The source material I'm trying it with is 192khz FLAC files.
> 
> I have been reliably using the DFR with my iPhone X and the CCK to get proper bit perfect playback with the Onkyo player.  These are files purchased through the Onkyo store, full "HiRes" 192 or 96khz.


I’m experiencing the same phenomenon with Qoboz on a new iPad Pro 12.9” (USB-C).  Playing 24/96 files fails to change the color of the fly (remains green = 44.1khz).  However, playing the identical files with the same setup through both my iPhone XS Max and iPad Mini 4 (Lightning port on both) consistently results in the expected color change from green to magenta. On all three iOS devices, my Qobuz audio settings are set to output files at up to 24/192 resolution (the max for Qobuz).  Thus, this phenomenon clearly appears to be a USB-C versus Lightning issue.  I am using the official Apple USB-C to Digital AV adapter with the iPad Pro, and the official Apple CCK3 with the iPhone and iPad Mini.  The phenomenon remains the same whether charging at the same time as listening or not.

I am uncertain whether the DFR is actually downsampling to 44.1khz, or if somehow the file resolution information is not being properly transmitted to the DFR through the iPad Pro’s USB-C port.  When comparing the sound through the iPad Pro versus the iPhone XS Max, I don’t detect any noticeable differences despite the different colors illuminated on the DFR through the two devices.


----------



## spdtdl

There is a known issue on the USB-C iPads. Any connected DAC shows as a connected headphone rather than a USB Device. (see roon forum for photos). This means playback is being limited. Also DSD and MQA fails. DSD plays, but with severe white noise in the background.

I found out the hard way after trying just about every app in the playstore, and finally tried roon, and when that didn't even work I gave up.

If the iPhone goes USB C next year it could have the same effect. Will apple ever fix it? Who Knows..........


----------



## gerb0075

spdtdl said:


> There is a known issue on the USB-C iPads. Any connected DAC shows as a connected headphone rather than a USB Device. (see roon forum for photos). This means playback is being limited. Also DSD and MQA fails. DSD plays, but with severe white noise in the background.
> 
> I found out the hard way after trying just about every app in the playstore, and finally tried roon, and when that didn't even work I gave up.
> 
> If the iPhone goes USB C next year it could have the same effect. Will apple ever fix it? Who Knows..........


Thanks for the info. Please indulge one noobie question: how are you playing mqa files on the iphone or ipad?  The Tidal iOS app does not support mqa playback.  Thanks again.


----------



## spdtdl

gerb0075 said:


> Thanks for the info. Please indulge one noobie question: how are you playing mqa files on the iphone or ipad?  The Tidal iOS app does not support mqa playback.  Thanks again.



On my iPhone XS Max I'm using Roon for MQA playback and it works perfectly, as does DSD.


----------



## unknownuser (Jan 5, 2019)

-


----------



## ckvp

Hello,

I received a Dragonfly Black v1.5 this Christmas because the dac in my Nexus 6P is garbage. I got UAPP and the Dragonfly Black sounds great with my iBasso IT01 when playing through it and after I change the volume way down in UAPP. However, when I try to listen to Spotify using it, the volume doesn't stick and becomes a staticky mess. Any way to keep my volume settings when playing Spotify? Typically, I can't even have UAPP running to hear Spotify through the USB.

Is this just a limitation due to Spotify not being natively supported by UAPP and USB audio? Is it even possible? As much as I like the sound within UAPP, I might have to return and try something else because Spotify is how I listen to everything.

Thanks!


----------



## pilgrimbilly

ckvp said:


> Hello,
> 
> I received a Dragonfly Black v1.5 this Christmas because the dac in my Nexus 6P is garbage. I got UAPP and the Dragonfly Black sounds great with my iBasso IT01 when playing through it and after I change the volume way down in UAPP. However, when I try to listen to Spotify using it, the volume doesn't stick and becomes a staticky mess. Any way to keep my volume settings when playing Spotify? Typically, I can't even have UAPP running to hear Spotify through the USB.
> 
> ...


UAPP doesn't support Spotify unfortunately. Spotify wouldn't supply a licence I believe.


----------



## JoshG1217

Does uapp sound better than Poweramp? I have an IFi nano Black and dragonfly black and they both work just fine with power amp and sound great with the hi res output. Curious if they sound even better with uapp.


----------



## mrwasabi (Jan 6, 2019)

New guy here who just picked up an AQ DragonFly Red.

Has anyone tried an AQ Carbon Lightning cable with a USB A female to USB A female coupler and an AQ DragonFly Red with an iPhone X?  I already have the Carbon Lightning cable and am hoping I can use it rather than invest in the Apple Lightning to USB 3.0 camera adapter which looks sort of clunky/inconvenient.  If this doesn't work, what's my best route?

Thanks for any input.


----------



## Prog blob

No you can’t... An Apple adapter is mandatory. The USB 2.0 one works too, however.


----------



## mrwasabi

Prog blob said:


> No you can’t... An Apple adapter is mandatory. The USB 2.0 one works too, however.



Damnit man...ugh.  The Carbon Lightning cable works with the iPhones fine.  I wonder what is screwing up the connection?  I've read the 2.0 one doesn't work that well or eventually at all?

Thanks for the input.


----------



## Prog blob (Jan 6, 2019)

MFI certification, a proprietary chip has to be inside for it to work.
About the 2.0 vs 3.0 adapters, I also initialy read that the 3.0 one is better, but since then I’ve also read that whatever was the issue is now gone... I’m using the 2.0 without issues.
- edit: let me correct that: I’ve tried it quickly a few times with no issue. I’m using my Mojo/Poly most of the time.-

However I’d be curious to know if there is a difference in sound quality, especially considering some dacs like the IFI Black Label and xDSD have a dedicated slot for the 2.0 adapter and don’t allow the use of the 3.0 one.


----------



## hornytoad

3.0 sounds better IMO and even Audioquest says so .


----------



## mrwasabi

So the 3.0 is the best route to go with an iPhone? Is it worth it to even use the DragonFly with an iPhone? I've been eyeballing some iBasso IT01S IEMs to use with this setup.

Thanks again for the input.


----------



## hornytoad

mrwasabi said:


> So the 3.0 is the best route to go with an iPhone? Is it worth it to even use the DragonFly with an iPhone? I've been eyeballing some iBasso IT01S IEMs to use with this setup.
> 
> Thanks again for the input.


Yes 3.0 , while bulkier ,sounds better IMO  . I don’t like the extra size but one advantage is you can also 
charge your phone with the 3.0 .


----------



## mrwasabi

Thanks again,

Sorry, to be clear, the Apple 2.0 and 3.0 cables are the only options to choose from to use with the DragonFly and an iPhone?


----------



## hornytoad

mrwasabi said:


> Thanks again,
> 
> Sorry, to be clear, the Apple 2.0 and 3.0 cables are the only options to choose from to use with the DragonFly and an iPhone?


Yes as far as I know though there could be some company out there making a super expensive cable


----------



## JoshG1217

Hey guys,

Got the black last week, and ordered the red to compare. However, anyone tried any integrated cable DAC like the V Moda one or the Audeze Cipher, but for android (those seem to be apple only)?


----------



## PeteMtl (Jan 6, 2019)

hornytoad said:


> 3.0 sounds better IMO and even Audioquest says so .



This is completely untrue. Both adapters now provide the exact same audio quality without any issues. Audioquest used to recommend only the USB3 3.0 Apple camera adaptor because there was a known issue between the USB2 2.0 camera adapter and the DFR. The issue was related to iOS compatibility and there were clicks and pops in the sound because of that. Since iOS 11.2 or 11.3 in 2017 the issues regarding the USB2 2.0 Apple camera adapter with DFR are over and both Apple adapters are completely okay for usage with the DFR. One is less bulkier, the other one provides recharging of iPhone or iPad while using the DFR, but soundwise, there are no audible differences whatsoever. Anybody arguing the contrary is just spreading pure snake oil. I’ve owned the DFR for a couple of years and have used it with both adapters with different iphones and ipads. I therefore speak of what I know about this whole issue. I have noticed the issue in the past with iOS 10 and early versions of iOS 11 with the 2.0 adapter and I can testify that the issue regarding the USB adapter were genuine and that the same issue is now a thing of the past. I now use both the 2.0 and the 3.0 Apple camera adapters without issues with my iphone X and ipad Pro 9,7. As a matter of fact I use the 2.0 quite more often with my HD600, HD6XX and HD58X Sennheiser headphones. So you may use the adapter you choose, but it’s rather a question of features and form factor, not a question of sound quality.


----------



## JoshG1217

Chill, man. People explain what they know. If you want to correct them, cool, but this isn't life altering stuff. No need to take such a strong tone. Pretty sure no one here is attempting to be deceptive.


----------



## hornytoad (Jan 7, 2019)

PeteMtl said:


> This is completely untrue. Both adapters now provide the exact same audio quality without any issues. Audioquest used to recommend only the USB3 3.0 Apple camera adaptor because there was a known issue between the USB2 2.0 camera adapter and the DFR. The issue was related to iOS compatibility and there were clicks and pops in the sound because of that. Since iOS 11.2 or 11.3 in 2017 the issues regarding the USB2 2.0 Apple camera adapter with DFR are over and both Apple adapters are completely okay for usage with the DFR. One is less bulkier, the other one provides recharging of iPhone or iPad while using the DFR, but soundwise, there are no audible differences whatsoever. Anybody arguing the contrary is just spreading pure snake oil. I’ve owned the DFR for a couple of years and have used it with both adapters with different iphones and ipads. I therefore speak of what I know about this whole issue. I have noticed the issue in the past with iOS 10 and early versions of iOS 11 with the 2.0 adapter and I can testify that the issue regarding the USB adapter were genuine and that the same issue is now a thing of the past. I now use both the 2.0 and the 3.0 Apple camera adapters without issues with my iphone X and ipad Pro 9,7. As a matter of fact I use the 2.0 quite more often with my HD600, HD6XX and HD58X Sennheiser headphones. So you may use the adapter you choose, but it’s rather a question of features and form factor, not a question of sound quality.


Then as kAudioquest .  , like I did , yourself. Or do a blind comparison like I did .


----------



## mrwasabi

Thanks for the input,

Sorry, I didn't mean to start a debate. I went ahead and picked up both (genuine Apple) on eBay for under $15 each so I can find out in my situation which is best. I could use both anyway.


----------



## ckvp

pilgrimbilly said:


> UAPP doesn't support Spotify unfortunately. Spotify wouldn't supply a licence I believe.



Well that's unfortunate. I can't believe there isn't some phone utility to get around that. Anyone want to go halves on a Tidal Family Membership?


----------



## DancingBlue

PeteMtl said:


> This is completely untrue. Both adapters now provide the exact same audio quality without any issues. Audioquest used to recommend only the USB3 3.0 Apple camera adaptor because there was a known issue between the USB2 2.0 camera adapter and the DFR. The issue was related to iOS compatibility and there were clicks and pops in the sound because of that. Since iOS 11.2 or 11.3 in 2017 the issues regarding the USB2 2.0 Apple camera adapter with DFR are over and both Apple adapters are completely okay for usage with the DFR. One is less bulkier, the other one provides recharging of iPhone or iPad while using the DFR, but soundwise, there are no audible differences whatsoever. Anybody arguing the contrary is just spreading pure snake oil. I’ve owned the DFR for a couple of years and have used it with both adapters with different iphones and ipads. I therefore speak of what I know about this whole issue. I have noticed the issue in the past with iOS 10 and early versions of iOS 11 with the 2.0 adapter and I can testify that the issue regarding the USB adapter were genuine and that the same issue is now a thing of the past. I now use both the 2.0 and the 3.0 Apple camera adapters without issues with my iphone X and ipad Pro 9,7. As a matter of fact I use the 2.0 quite more often with my HD600, HD6XX and HD58X Sennheiser headphones. So you may use the adapter you choose, but it’s rather a question of features and form factor, not a question of sound quality.



Can also confirm this to be 100% true. 

Was about to write a long answer on the whole cck2/3 issue (as I've done a couple of times in this thread), but the above sums it up perfectly. 

I now use the CCK2 exclusively with my iPhoneX and a variety of headphones and IEMs (see sig), for hours at a time, daily, and nary a problem. The cck2 and 3 sound no different, so I prefer the smaller form factor of the 2.


----------



## hornytoad

DancingBlue said:


> Can also confirm this to be 100% true.
> 
> Was about to write a long answer on the whole cck2/3 issue (as I've done a couple of times in this thread), but the above sums it up perfectly.
> 
> I now use the CCK2 exclusively with my iPhoneX and a variety of headphones and IEMs (see sig), for hours at a time, daily, and nary a problem. The cck2 and 3 sound no different, so I prefer the smaller form factor of the 2.


And yet they both have different firmware .


----------



## DancingBlue

hornytoad said:


> And yet they both have different firmware .



Which makes sense; one has a passhtrough/charging port, the other does not.


----------



## mrwasabi

Is the AQ Carbon Lightning cable not Mifi certified? It works to charge, backup, etc. my iPhone. I'm confused why it won't work with the DF and a female/female USB coupler? Damn Apple mojo I guess..ugh.


----------



## hornytoad (Jan 7, 2019)

DancingBlue said:


> Which makes sense; one has a passhtrough/charging port, the other does not.


Another firmware update was done ota in 2017 . The 2.0 version did not get the update.

https://9to5mac.com/2017/04/13/apple-lightning-to-usb-3-camera-adapter-firmware-1-0-5/amp/


----------



## BenKatz

Hello,

Just a quick question: Does the latest firmware fix the Android volume issue? I'd really appreciate if someone with a Sony Xperia device could confirm whether the volume issue is fixed.

Best regards!


----------



## fljoe

I have the Dragonfly Black and a Hifiman HE-400 headphones that are slightly difficult to drive when connected to my laptop. I am thinking of picking up the JDS Atom headphone amp to drive the headphones better. Is this a viable solution? I know the DFB has a headphone amp, so will this even work? Thanks!


----------



## JoshG1217

Not to be a jerk, but I picked up the black and red recently, and sent them back after a week. I bought them hoping they would be better at portability than the IFI Idsd nano black label, but they were not even close in sound quality. For $200, I would go with the Ifi Nano for those looking at options. Just picked up the Sony Zx300s to test against the Ifi. So far, I like the IFI better, but I have not tested the Sony balanced yet, as I am waiting for the balanced cable.


----------



## hornytoad

JoshG1217 said:


> Not to be a jerk, but I picked up the black and red recently, and sent them back after a week. I bought them hoping they would be better at portability than the IFI Idsd nano black label, but they were not even close in sound quality. For $200, I would go with the Ifi Nano for those looking at options. Just picked up the Sony Zx300s to test against the Ifi. So far, I like the IFI better, but I have not tested the Sony balanced yet, as I am waiting for the balanced cable.


Can you hang the ifi nano off your cell phone while you are running or working out at the gym? It’s portability that is its best feature .


----------



## JayNetTech5

JoshG1217 said:


> Not to be a jerk, but I picked up the black and red recently, and sent them back after a week. I bought them hoping they would be better at portability than the IFI Idsd nano black label, but they were not even close in sound quality. For $200, I would go with the Ifi Nano for those looking at options. Just picked up the Sony Zx300s to test against the Ifi. So far, I like the IFI better, but I have not tested the Sony balanced yet, as I am waiting for the balanced cable.


 I tried the Black twice, it's so "closed-in" and bland sounding, I never tried the Red but after not liking the Black, I feel like there's no point in spending the extra $100 for overpriced dongles. I feel like you're merely paying for specs and features, and not actual sound quality. I was shocked 3 times, when I bought the SMSL X4, FiiO K1, Behringer UCA202, and now the XtremPro X1, all sound better to me than the more expensive ones I paid for, or even heard about, even if their amps and specs aren't up there.


----------



## JoshG1217

That was my opinion as well. The black only sounded slightly better than my Note 9 straight from the jack. Check out the IFi. Paired with the Amiron home, it sounded amazing


----------



## JayNetTech5 (Jan 8, 2019)

I feel like my quest isn't quite over for finding the closest thing to an scph-1001 with its ak4309avm for under $100 that I can plug my headphones straight into.


----------



## gazzington

Do these sound better than a fiio q5?


----------



## JoshG1217

No, they don't.


----------



## BenKatz

Wonder how it compares to the Fiio BTR3 (wired)


----------



## TwelveTrains

I just picked up the new Dragonfly Black after years of enjoying an older 1.2 Dragonfly, and I must say I am incredibly disappointed in the new one.

It is just *WAY* too loud. With the old one, I would typically keep volume between 10 and 40 percent, for low to medium levels, with most of the headphones I would use it with (Samsung Earbuds, HD 598, HD 380). But with the new one, I can't get past 6% volume with most of my headphones before it is too loud. With by earbuds, I am stuck at either 1 or 2% volume. I even plugged in my HD 800 from my desktop rig, and I couldn't get past 14% volume before it was earsplitting to me.

I am just so confused why Audioquest would make the volume range so unusable for the majority of headphones in the new model. I can't even imagine what the Red Version sounds like. It is not like most people are going to even be using headphones like the HD 800 with something built for portability. I am sadly going to have to return mine. Hoping I can find a used older version or maybe a competing product with a more workable volume range.


----------



## Lboddah

It might be irrelevent yet since these do not contain a battery, how do they amp the sound while powered from the device such as a smartphone which is not capable of driving that high impedance headphones ? I mean, if a smartphone can not run a headphone due to high impedance, how come a device that is powered by that smartphone is able to do ?

I want to add another question, can I use conventor from USB-C to USB-A pops up from the box of Samsung S9/Note 9 ? By doing so, will these dacs be plug and play ?

Thanks a lot in advance!


----------



## Darijan

Lboddah said:


> It might be irrelevent yet since these do not contain a battery, how do they amp the sound while powered from the device such as a smartphone which is not capable of driving that high impedance headphones ? I mean, if a smartphone can not run a headphone due to high impedance, how come a device that is powered by that smartphone is able to do ?
> 
> I want to add another question, can I use conventor from USB-C to USB-A pops up from the box of Samsung S9/Note 9 ? By doing so, will these dacs be plug and play ?
> 
> Thanks a lot in advance!



Hi, I can answer your second question. I have Note 9 and it works with USB-C to USB-A adapter. It's plug and play for amp and dac part of the device.


----------



## megabigeye

Lboddah said:


> It might be irrelevent yet since these do not contain a battery, how do they amp the sound while powered from the device such as a smartphone which is not capable of driving that high impedance headphones ? I mean, if a smartphone can not run a headphone due to high impedance, how come a device that is powered by that smartphone is able to do ?
> 
> I want to add another question, can I use conventor from USB-C to USB-A pops up from the box of Samsung S9/Note 9 ? By doing so, will these dacs be plug and play ?
> 
> Thanks a lot in advance!


The Dragonflies are bus powered, so they're drawing on the phone's battery to run their amp.  They're not using the phone's amplifier in any way.
Also, you might be surprised at the headphones a smartphone can drive.  The S9 is capable of driving the Sennheiser HD 650 (300Ω) or the Beyerdynamic DT 1990 (250Ω) to pretty loud levels.


----------



## Lboddah (Jan 31, 2019)

N0m1nd said:


> Hi all
> 
> I have a problem with my new *Dragonfly RED* on my *Samsung Galaxy S8*+.
> On my Desktop Computer i notice an improvement of soundquality using the DFR. On the Galaxy S8 the soundquality is considerably worse than over the headphone jack.
> ...


I wonder if this issue continues since i consider to buy dfr for my s9+. Have you found a solution ? Thanks.


----------



## Sotiris

Lboddah said:


> I wonder if this issue continues since i consider to buy dfr for my s9+. Have you found a solution ? Thanks.



I hanve S8 and DFR...the comparison with 3.5mm is like night and day..i have Usb player pro and the sound with DFR is super!!!!


----------



## Sotiris

Which headphone sounds better you think with DFR..Basshead? Neutral?Bright.


----------



## Lboddah

Sotiris said:


> I hanve S8 and DFR...the comparison with 3.5mm is like night and day..i have Usb player pro and the sound with DFR is super!!!!


What about spotify ? Does DFR supports it fully on new Samsung devices like S8 just like Usb player?


----------



## megabigeye (Feb 1, 2019)

Lboddah said:


> What about spotify ? Does DFR supports it fully on new Samsung devices like S8 just like Usb player?


Yes.  A firmware update fixed the problems it used to have.
Only problem is if you have very sensitive head-/earphones, volume jumps can be very large.  UAPP is much better this way, but doesn't support Spotify, unfortunately


----------



## hgpardo

How does the Dragonfly Red compare to the SMSL Idea (Sabaj DA2)? I have the Sabaj and Zorloo ZuperDAC-S (same Sabre DAC chip) but they draw too much power from my phone (Samsung S7) using UAPP. I use the FLC 8n hybrid IEMs and the Audio Technica MSR7 with this audio configuration. I find the Sabre DACs too bright with less impact on mids (voices) and bass. The Zorloo sounds good, but no support for DSD. Is the DF Red worth the 200 $ price tag? Thanks


----------



## Luke Thomas

Do you turn your dragonfly red volume all the way up, when feeding another amp.


----------



## Fasterball

Yes - turning it up all the way puts it in line out mode.


----------



## Luke Thomas

Fasterball said:


> Yes - turning it up all the way puts it in line out mode.


Would you explain the difference between line out mode, and non line out mode? Thanks


----------



## Fasterball

Luke Thomas said:


> Would you explain the difference between line out mode, and non line out mode? Thanks


Wish I knew exactly. My understanding is that problems arise when you double amp music and line out will, on other devices, bypass the amp and just utilize the DAC. That's not exactly how It works on the Red but I believe that's the general idea. In essence you shouldnt have any issues that arise from double amping.


----------



## hgpardo

Just bought a Dragonfly Red to use it with Android (Samsung S7) and UAPP. Very good quality, but less high frequencies compared with other Sabre-based USB DACs (Zorloo ZuperDAC-S and SMSL Idea/ Sabaj DA2). Anyone has the same impressions? Good mids (voices) but high frequencies are subdued (tested with Audio Technica MSR7 and hybrid IEM FLC 8n). 
How can I set DSD playback mode with UAPP with DF Red? DoP or PCM conversion? It can play even DSD native with UAPP, but I think DF Red has no support for direct DSD. Thanks.


----------



## Luke Thomas

Fasterball said:


> Wish I knew exactly. My understanding is that problems arise when you double amp music and line out will, on other devices, bypass the amp and just utilize the DAC. That's not exactly how It works on the Red but I believe that's the general idea. In essence you shouldnt have any issues that arise from double amping.


That's kind of what I thought. The thing is. (still testing) my violectric amp with focal clear headphones sound better with the dragon fly red volume reduced.


----------



## shimigg

Just got the Red and I like it a lot, few questions :
1. How do you set the volume on Android, do you set uapp volume all the way up or not, I want to use Spotify but don't wanna blow my ears.

2. Any good USB c otg cable with charging port and normal USB to connect the red ?


----------



## Wheel Hoss (Feb 18, 2019)

I’m seriously considering one of these for more volume and better amp than Apple Dongle.

Over on Reddit, people are acting like this device is BS. I posted a quote from CNET review and everyone acted like it was a joke.

https://www.cnet.com/news/upping-the-ante-with-the-audio-technica-ath-m70x-headphones/

“At this point, I connected the new AudioQuest DragonFly Red digital converter/headphone amplifier (review to come) to the iPhone and listened again. The ATH M70x' sound filled out and the treble was clearer than before; bass had more oomph, and stereo imaging opened wider.”

For those owners who have compared the DFR to Apple Dongle, what are your thoughts? Would be using it with two cans in my sig when not by my desktop amp.


----------



## Sotiris

Let them think they are BS. 316 pages here , if they are bull then we like BS.


----------



## Fasterball

Wheel Hoss said:


> I’m seriously considering one of these for more volume and better amp than Apple Dongle.
> 
> Over on Reddit, people are acting like this device is BS. I posted a quote from CNET review and everyone acted like it was a joke.
> 
> ...


The reddit goons circlejerk so hard that they often can't form original thought. Audioquest gets flamed on there a lot for their "snake oil" cables that cost a fortune.  The DFR is different though. It uses a very well regarded chip and for a tiny USB dac/amp - it can sure push a load of sound. I love the DFR. I sold mine on ebay looking for greener pastures only to turn around and purchase it again because I didn't find any.  Also the DFR pairs beautifully with the Nighthawks.  DFR is nice and bright and the Nighthawks are dark and the combo is bliss.


----------



## west0ne

Fasterball said:


> The reddit goons circlejerk so hard that they often can't form original thought. Audioquest gets flamed on there a lot for their "snake oil" cables that cost a fortune.  The DFR is different though. It uses a very well regarded chip and for a tiny USB dac/amp - it can sure push a load of sound. I love the DFR. I sold mine on ebay looking for greener pastures only to turn around and purchase it again because I didn't find any.  Also the DFR pairs beautifully with the Nighthawks.  DFR is nice and bright and the Nighthawks are dark and the combo is bliss.



The DFR/DFB aren't without their problems, when used with Android devices the volume control doesn't work properly unless you are using UAPP or go through a bit of a hack process on a rooted device. Volume control in Windows can also be an issue as it can get too loud without sufficient room for control, I found that to get some volume control back I had to use EQ APO and set the pre-amp to -30dB. Some of the complaints on Reddit relate to the noise issues with the DFR/DFB but what most don't understand is that the noise was largely only an issue when the output was set at above 75% using a low impedance load below 32Ohm; people have seen these measurements and push the narrative that it makes the device poor. In reality there are going to be very few headphones with an impedance of 32Ohm or less that are also of a low enough sensitivity that it would be safe to set the volume above 75% even on the lower powered DFB. It also doesn't help that the Sabaj DA2 seems to be compared with the Dragonfly devices and is considerably cheaper which then makes the DFR/DFB look like another 'overpriced' Audioquest product fitting in with their pre-existing reputation.


----------



## hgpardo (Feb 19, 2019)

west0ne said:


> The DFR/DFB aren't without their problems, when used with Android devices the volume control doesn't work properly unless you are using UAPP or go through a bit of a hack process on a rooted device. Volume control in Windows can also be an issue as it can get too loud without sufficient room for control, I found that to get some volume control back I had to use EQ APO and set the pre-amp to -30dB. Some of the complaints on Reddit relate to the noise issues with the DFR/DFB but what most don't understand is that the noise was largely only an issue when the output was set at above 75% using a low impedance load below 32Ohm; people have seen these measurements and push the narrative that it makes the device poor. In reality there are going to be very few headphones with an impedance of 32Ohm or less that are also of a low enough sensitivity that it would be safe to set the volume above 75% even on the lower powered DFB. It also doesn't help that the Sabaj DA2 seems to be compared with the Dragonfly devices and is considerably cheaper which then makes the DFR/DFB look like another 'overpriced' Audioquest product fitting in with their pre-existing reputation.


I had the Sabaj DA2 and returned it after comparison with the DF Red. The Sabaj DA2 has many issues with Android phones (it produces a buzzing sound and only worked for me with UAPP after tweaking with Android USB settings). Better the Zorloo ZuperDAC-S, it has no native DSD playback but it has similar sound quality and it is compatible with all my apps (including Spotify, HiBy Music, Youtube, etc.). The main drawback is power consumption (both Sabaj and Zorloo) too much for a mobile phone. The DF Red has very low power consumption but it has 2.1 volt output to drive many headphones. Sound quality is so good that I immediately returned the Sabaj (and will sell my Zorloo). I virtually re-discovered the sound quality of my Audio Technica MSR7 with my mobile phone and DF Red. The high price tag compared with Sabaj or Zorloo is totally worth it in my opinion. DF Red beats even my HiRes players like FiiO X3II or other DACs like Encore mDSD. It sounds really good with UAPP (DF Red supports TIDAL MQA files played in UAPP).
DF Red has no problems with Android (at least with my Samsung phone) but you have to install the last firmware that fixes Android sound issues connecting it to a PC with the setup software. I can easily control the DF Red volume of all my sound apps in Android. It has an excellent software-controlled amplifier, incomparison with DF Black. DF Red has no competition below this price (EUR 180-190).


----------



## Wheel Hoss

Thanks for all the feedback. Sounds perfect for my closed back cans on the go!


----------



## shimigg

How do you guys keep from blowing your ears , it's easy to forget the volume level and press play before checking the level and blow up , I'm on version 1.06 , is 1.07 any different?


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## Sotiris

shimigg said:


> How do you guys keep from blowing your ears , it's easy to forget the volume level and press play before checking the level and blow up , I'm on version 1.06 , is 1.07 any different?




Of course there is difference....In web music like radio or youtube the sound is very low with 1.6...Audioquest fix it with 1.7..


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## manstretch (Feb 20, 2019)

I just purchased a DFB and Apple's lightning to USB-A adapter. Whenever I turn the volume above roughly halfway the audio cuts off and the DFB changes from green to pink. I can't get any audio to persist with the audio above halfway. I've tried searching this thread but can't seem to find a definitive reason. This is on an IPhone X with 12.1.4. The DFB works fine from my laptop.


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## Digeeedad (Feb 21, 2019)

I have an iPhone 8 plus and Audio Technica ath-M50x headphones. Not planning to upgrade phone or headphones any time soon. Would the DFB give me any improvement over the iPhone dongle? Would the DFR be overkill with my equipment? I also have an iPad pro 10.5, which has great sound using its headphone jack. Using the iphone dongle with the ipad definitely compromises the audio, so based on that, would assume that the DFs would be an improvement. I’m going to order one of the DFs from Best Buy soon. Any comments much appreciated!


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## arrakian

Digeeedad said:


> I have an iPhone 8 plus and Audio Technica ath-M50x headphones. Not planning to upgrade phone or headphones any time soon. Would the DFB give me any improvement over the iPhone dongle? Would the DFR be overkill with my equipment? I also have an iPad pro 10.5, which has great sound using its headphone jack. Using the iphone dongle with the ipad definitely compromises the audio, so based on that, would assume that the DFs would be an improvement. I’m going to order one of the DFs from Best Buy soon. Any comments much appreciated!


I had/have that setup (except I have M40x) and you’ll hear an improvement most noticeably if you had better headphones. I replaced the A-T M40x with Sennheiser HD1 ...yes! The Senns much lower impedance, with high efficiency reveaedl more to me and were a better match for the DFR.


----------



## Digeeedad

arrakian said:


> I had/have that setup (except I have M40x) and you’ll hear an improvement most noticeably if you had better headphones. I replaced the A-T M40x with Sennheiser HD1 ...yes! The Senns much lower impedance, with high efficiency reveaedl more to me and were a better match for the DFR.



Thanks for the reply and info!


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## shimigg

For those who use DFR with Android , is it a good move to upgrade to 1.07 fw? I'm afraid to blow up my ears with the comments I read here...


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## shimigg

Also, is there an OTG cable that I can connect DFR to Android while charging the phone?


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## megabigeye

shimigg said:


> For those who use DFR with Android , is it a good move to upgrade to 1.07 fw? I'm afraid to blow up my ears with the comments I read here...


Why would you blow up your ears?  FW 1.07 fixes the low volume issue the DFR had on the Android system sound.  This affected apps like Google Play Music and Spotify, as I recall.  Android volume control is only 15 steps plus mute-- if your 'phones are very sensitive, this might not be fine enough volume control and can get loud quickly.  UAPP provides finer (and more adjustable) volume control, but does not work with Spotify, though it does work with GPM, Tidal, Qobuz, and locally stored music.  My IEMs are 115dB/mW @ 45Ω and I find the volume steps in Spotify with the DFR to be just this side of acceptable.

Hope this helps!

As to your second question, I don't have an answer.  Are you looking for micro-USB or USB-C?


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## shimigg

All I need is a USB c cable with otg and charge in the same time , exists?


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## Wheel Hoss

arrakian said:


> I had/have that setup (except I have M40x) and you’ll hear an improvement most noticeably if you had better headphones. I replaced the A-T M40x with Sennheiser HD1 ...yes! The Senns much lower impedance, with high efficiency reveaedl more to me and were a better match for the DFR.



Ok but how much of an improvement with the 40’s?


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## Digeeedad (Feb 24, 2019)

I picked up the Dragonfly Red yesterday from Best Buy. I'm using it with the Apple USB 3 camera adapter, my iPhone 8 plus and for now, my Audio Technica ath-M50x headphones. I'm also doing the 30 day Tidal HiFi trial. Most definately better than using the Apple Lightning dongle. At this point, after listening pretty much non-stop last night and through the day today, couldn't be happier! Especially with the Tidal HiFi streaming, old favorites have taken on a new life! Haven't had a good stereo in years. I'd guess I could do better with other headphones but that isn't happening anywhere soon and am very satisfied with how the 50x's are sounding with the above set-up. My only disappointment is that with the DFR, battery drain on my iPhone is very noticeably increased. Great to have the USB 3 adapter so as to be able to charge and listen to my phone simultaneously. Also very much wish there was more volume steps on my iPhone. Always seems that I need to have a 1/2 step between too loud and too soft. Back to listening....


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## Sotiris

Digeeedad said:


> I picked up the Dragonfly Red yesterday from Best Buy. I'm using it with the Apple USB 3 camera adapter, my iPhone 8 plus and for now, my Audio Technica ath-M50x headphones. I'm also doing the 30 day Tidal HiFi trial. Most definately better than using the Apple Lightning dongle. At this point, after listening pretty much non-stop last night and through the day today, couldn't be happier! Especially with the Tidal HiFi streaming, old favorites have taken on a new life! Haven't had a good stereo in years. I'd guess I could do better with other headphones but that isn't happening anywhere soon and am very satisfied with how the 50x's are sounding with the above set-up. My only disappointment is that with the DFR, battery drain on my iPhone is very noticeably increased. Great to have the USB 3 adapter so as to be able to charge and listen to my phone simultaneously. Also very much wish there was more volume steps on my iPhone. Always seems that I need to have a 1/2 step between too loud and too soft. Back to listening....




Try a better quallity of earphones. You are loosing sound quality from DFR. I have some cheap earbuds and some good iems like JVC FX1100 and the differences are big


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## Digeeedad

Thanks for the suggestion but I’ll have to stick with the 50x’s for now. Truthfully not really such a bad headphone to be stuck with.


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## arrakian

Wheel Hoss said:


> Ok but how much of an improvement with the 40’s?


 By the time I had gotten the Dragonfly Red, I had already switched my headphones to the HD1. I never tried the M40x.


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## Digeeedad (Feb 26, 2019)

I'm using my new Dragonfly Red with my iPhone 8 plus and the AT 50x headphones, as per above. My iPhone battery seems to drain fairly quickly, when listening to music streamed through Tidal, even with keeping the phone's display off. It seems to drop 15% to 25% per album listened to. Does this seem excessive? Using my iPhone without the DFR to hang out on Facebook and do news and Google searches, the battery drain has been much slower, as was listening to music using the Apple dongle and the 50x headphones. Using the Apple USB 3 to charge, while also listening to music through the DFR, charging is very slow and of course speeds up greatly when removing the DFR. Loving the listening but am thinking about returning the DF because of the battery issue. Would it be possible for the Tidal music app to be adding significantly to the drain? Obviously I need to do some more experimenting to be more exacting but any comments regarding experience with the above would be greatly appreciated!

* I just used the 50x headphones and the Apple dongle, playing music for an hour... battery useage 2%! That as compared to 15%-25% is pretty bad!


----------



## imsurokim

Digeeedad said:


> I'm using my new Dragonfly Red with my iPhone 8 plus and the AT 50x headphones, as per above. My iPhone battery seems to drain fairly quickly, when listening to music streamed through Tidal, even with keeping the phone's display off. It seems to drop 15% to 25% per album listened to. Does this seem excessive? Using my iPhone without the DFR to hang out on Facebook and do news and Google searches, the battery drain has been much slower, as was listening to music using the Apple dongle and the 50x headphones. Using the Apple USB 3 to charge, while also listening to music through the DFR, charging is very slow and of course speeds up greatly when removing the DFR. Loving the listening but am thinking about returning the DF because of the battery issue. Would it be possible for the Tidal music app to be adding significantly to the drain? Obviously I need to do some more experimenting to be more exacting but any comments regarding experience with the above would be greatly appreciated!
> 
> * I just used the 50x headphones and the Apple dongle, playing music for an hour... battery useage 2%! That as compared to 15%-25% is pretty bad!



How old is yout iPhone? I see dfr uses more battery than dongle but it shouldn’t be extreme.


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## Digeeedad

imsurokim said:


> How old is yout iPhone? I see dfr uses more battery than dongle but it shouldn’t be extreme.


 
Hadn't thought about that... iPhone is exactly 18 months old, with pretty heavy daily use. Seems to hold a charge though, except when using the DF. Just finished doing some comparisons, 50x using Apple dongle and 50x using the DFR. DFR is much better, which can't be argued, once you've experienced it, hard to think of going back to the dongle. Just for the heck of it, thinking that maybe I should just forget about wires and better sound altogether and just go for convenience. I tried out my daughter's bluetooth 50x. Yikes! Bass is WAY over emphasized and everything seems boxed in. The DFR is so obviously better! Guess I'll maybe have Apple check out my iPhone battery and if it's ok, I'll just "suck up" the seeming battery drain issue, as I definitely have become "spoiled" now! lol Thanks for the suggestion about the battery!


----------



## imsurokim

Digeeedad said:


> Hadn't thought about that... iPhone is exactly 18 months old, with pretty heavy daily use. Seems to hold a charge though, except when using the DF. Just finished doing some comparisons, 50x using Apple dongle and 50x using the DFR. DFR is much better, which can't be argued, once you've experienced it, hard to think of going back to the dongle. Just for the heck of it, thinking that maybe I should just forget about wires and better sound altogether and just go for convenience. I tried out my daughter's bluetooth 50x. Yikes! Bass is WAY over emphasized and everything seems boxed in. The DFR is so obviously better! Guess I'll maybe have Apple check out my iPhone battery and if it's ok, I'll just "suck up" the seeming battery drain issue, as I definitely have become "spoiled" now! lol Thanks for the suggestion about the battery!



Yeah, battery might be an issue. It certainly drains battery more than dongle but not like 25% in an hour. I can still listen to music and play some game over an hour with 15% batter life left.


----------



## dhm78

Has anyone else had any trouble running the Red on a Samsung tablet? It recognizes the usb  but doesn't output sound. I  don't have the same issue with my Modi 2U and Vali 2 Schiit stack..


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## Digeeedad

One more question... Each time I plug the Apple Lightning to USB 3 adapter into my iPhone 8 Plus, I get a pop up message asking if I want to do an update for the adapter. Any reason not to do the update?


----------



## west0ne

dhm78 said:


> Has anyone else had any trouble running the Red on a Samsung tablet? It recognizes the usb  but doesn't output sound. I  don't have the same issue with my Modi 2U and Vali 2 Schiit stack..



I had the same issue on an old Galaxy Tab A. It works with UAPP and on a rooted device I could see the DFB using ALSA but the L&R channels were both set to 0 and attempts to set them to anything else were met with an error. I had a similar issue with a Topping DAC/Amp on a Moto G device so it looks as though it is something to do with software rather than hardware.


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## bassct

Ive had the DFR before, sold it to buy ZuperDAC-s instead. Missed the DFR so much that i bought one again. I love how simple and functional this thing is. Its nice to be able to get good sound from a phone. I own Hiby R3 as well, which is a great little device in its own. 

 Question for android users: are you able to get audio from the USB when using youtube? Or does it only work with GPM, Hiby Music, UAPP, Tidal. Id love to be able to get all audio going through the USB.


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## bassct

Here is some info for those who cares about cold hard numbers and statistics. 
 Both measurements were taken from a Oneplus 3T running latest  Hiby music, Anker OTG cable ( usb C to A female ) , driving Sennheiser DH518s ( 50ohm ) at 50% software volume in Hiby app. ZuperDAC-s has hardware buttons with 16 volume steps. Volume was maxed on ZuperDAC-s. 

 ZuperDAC-s draws 3 times as much power. At max volume in Hiby app, DFR is louder than ZuperDAC-s ( hardware volume level was maxed out on the ZuperDAC-s ).


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## Jephy

Hi, I am using Dragonfly red with my android phone and Tidal MQA but only on 48000 Hz (blue). Is there a way to get 96000 Hz? On Tidal desktop app works fine.


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## bassct

Jephy said:


> Hi, I am using Dragonfly red with my android phone and Tidal MQA but only on 48000 Hz (blue). Is there a way to get 96000 Hz? On Tidal desktop app works fine.



I am not using Tidal, but perhaps desktop and mobile apps support different formats. Or its the android system limitation.


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## hgpardo

Yes, it is Android limitation. You must use TIDAL from UAPP to play MQA files at 96KkHz, not TIDAL app. Clear difference because both the UAPP and DF RED sequentially decode MQA files to Max. frequency and DFR lits magenta. Purchase MQA module in  UAPP.


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## hgpardo

bassct said:


> I am not using Tidal, but perhaps desktop and mobile apps support different formats. Or its the android system limitation.


Yes, it is Android limitation. You must use TIDAL from UAPP to play MQA files at 96KkHz, not TIDAL app. Clear difference because both the UAPP and DF RED sequentially decode MQA files to Max. frequency and DFR lits magenta. Purchase MQA module in UAPP.


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## hgpardo (Feb 28, 2019)

I have also ZuperDAC-S and DF RED and both can play sound from all Android apps (with Android frequency limitation) except UAPP, HiBy and Onkyo apps that use their own USB output driver to DACs and bypass Android USB sound output driver. These three apps sound noticeability better with DFR and ZUPERDAC-S


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## bassct

How about music playback while in Youtube app or Spotify or Pandora ? Is it possible to use USB audio on these ? Audio source option in Developer options doesnt seem to work.


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## hgpardo (Mar 1, 2019)

No problem with Android phones (Samsung S7) you can use YouTube and Spotify with DF RED (last firmware upgrade in Audioquest page) but with Android sound limitation ( no USB Android bypass available in Spotify and Youtube). However, Spotify sounds a lot better with DFR than using directly earphone jack output of Samsung S7. UAPP has only support for TIDAL and QoOBUZ (I have TIDAL HI-FI subscription). In fact, I didn't renew my subscription to Spotify due to this reason. TIDAL is supported by UAPP.


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## Jephy

Is there some reason why UAPP MQA function is not implemented in Tidal app?


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## hgpardo

MQA only works directly in the deskrop windows/Mac version. Not implemented in mobile apps. It works only under UAPP with DF RED. Same issue with Spotify app (no support for direct DAC output).


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## bassct

Hgpardo, could you please clarify as to how you are getting sound from usb and DFR when playing videos on YouTube app? Which settings need to be checked in on order to route audio to the USB.


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## hgpardo

Just upgrade firmware of DF RED with the desktop app to version 1.07 here: https://www.audioquest.com/page/aq-digitalupdates.html

I hear YouTube videos with my Samsung S7 and DFR without problems. Volume setting using Android multimedia buttons with my phone. If you have UAPP or HiBy as default app to use DF RED you have to reset it in Android App settings. Otherwise the app drivers do not let Android sound work.


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## bassct

hgpardo said:


> Just upgrade firmware of DF RED with the desktop app to version 1.07 here: https://www.audioquest.com/page/aq-digitalupdates.html
> 
> I hear YouTube videos with my Samsung S7 and DFR without problems. Volume setting using Android multimedia buttons with my phone. If you have UAPP or HiBy as default app to use DF RED you have to reset it in Android App settings. Otherwise the app drivers do not let Android sound work.



Thanks, finally  was able to get it working. I had no idea how to get sound in YT app. My DFR came w 1.07, so no problems there.


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## Wheel Hoss

DF Owners;

Do you have/use the Jitterbug, and if so, do you also use it with your desktop setup?

It seems like snake oil. But every reviewer goes into it saying it seems bs and then can’t stop using it. Hmmm.


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## morgul (Mar 5, 2019)

shimigg said:


> Also, is there an OTG cable that I can connect DFR to Android while charging the phone?





shimigg said:


> All I need is a USB c cable with otg and charge in the same time , exists?



Looks like the audioquest dragontail is what you are looking for, can anyone confirm that it can charge while using a dragonfly ?
For now I'm using an USB c hub to plug my red but it's too big. I'm also looking for that kind of cable. The dragontail looks solid but it cost 20 € here. I just left my iPhone 6s plus for a brand new OnePlus 6t and using the dragonfly red with it is a pain compared to iOS...

Edit : sorry I checked it twice and no the dragontail can't charge ...


----------



## bassct

Wheel Hoss said:


> DF Owners;
> 
> Do you have/use the Jitterbug, and if so, do you also use it with your desktop setup?
> 
> It seems like snake oil. But every reviewer goes into it saying it seems bs and then can’t stop using it. Hmmm.



 No JBug here. Would love to try one, or a pair, to see if it makes any difference. But its 50$ a pop. They sell knock off USB filters online for 10$, wonder if they are any good. Compared to other similar devices, DFR is worth every penny of its price. Wonder if same can be said about JBUg.
 Ive seen some DFR+JBug deals on ebay, cheaper than buying both new. Can score a good deal, if you win the bidding war.


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## Digeeedad (Mar 9, 2019)

I have a Dragonfly Red, playing music through Tidal Music using both my iPhone 8plus and desktop, with Audio Technica ath-m50x headphones. There is lots of gain/volume available with DFR through the PC and Tidal app but significantly less when attached to my iPhone. (volume indicator is at about 1/2 to 3/4 for satisfactory volume) Switching to the Apple dongle, there does not appear much if any gain/volume difference between it and the DFR. I also recently bought some Beyerdynamic DT770 Pro 80 (ohms) headphones. To get a satisfactorily ample volume using the DFR and the DT770s on my iPhone, the volume indicator needs to be 3/4 and above. I was under the belief that the DFR had a built in "amp" which should easily drive the DT770s. I like the sound of the DT770s but will probably be returning them, as I use my iPhone more than my PC. (under many musical situations, I actually prefer the 50x, plus the DT770s long cord is a bit of an irritant) Any explanation as to why, even using the DFR, the gain/volume on the phone is seemingly so lacking?


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## andrewski (Mar 8, 2019)

Jitterbug good.
Dragontail with usb c, even better.
But if you think it's snake oil, it is.

I find the Jitterbug drops the noise floor, while the dragontail widens the stage. Both improve dynamics


----------



## gb21011971

Help!

My new Samsung Galaxy s10+ crashes and shuts down the moment I connect the Dragonfly Red. 

I was running Android 9 as well on my old s9+, never had a problem. 

Using UAPP, but it also crashes when I have UAPP deinstalled.

Anyone have an idea? Thanks!


----------



## FallLine

I have a Dragonfly Black (recently purchased for mobile iOS device use) that appears to be VERY sensitive to static electricity. If I walk on a rug at all, or even sit on chair on a rug, the Dragonfly appears to reset (turns off and the light cycles through a few colors) when I touch the device directly, or even if I just touch the cable on my headphones. No shock is actually felt when this happens. I've been dealing with it by constantly discharging by touching some metal near me. Out of curiosity I tested this with my older Dragonfly 1.2 model, and no matter how much static charge I generate, it doesn't seem to behave the same way. I'm not sure if this is due to something that changed on the 1.5 model, vs the 1.2, or if I possibly have a faulty 1.5 model. Has anyone else encountered this issue?


----------



## morgul

gb21011971 said:


> Help!
> 
> My new Samsung Galaxy s10+ crashes and shuts down the moment I connect the Dragonfly Red.
> 
> ...



Stop using dfr with it


----------



## gb21011971

supposed to be funny?


----------



## morgul

Just sarcastic, I just switched from iPhone 6s plus to OnePlus 6t and using the dfr is a pain, I think I'm not going to use it with android..


----------



## revand

To the attention of Apple iPhone and IPad owners:
From Today if you update the TIDAL IOS app you can play now the TIDAL Masters tracks and albums reaching plenty of High - Res music!
It is a great step forward towards high quality music listening on the go, which was not typical at Apple...
Masters quality is shown with a capital letter M, provided you have a HIFI subscription and you have chosen Master quality clicking the quality sign (HIFI in blue color or Master in yellow color).
You should adjust the download quality as well in the Menu. If you already downloaded a Master album first remove it from your device, and after adjusting the download quality to Master you should download that album again to enjoy Master quality from your iPhone or iPad. 
My question:
Anyone tried the new TIDAL app on IOS devices with an AQ DRF Red or Black connected with a camera adapter?
Does it work?
Does it make the second unfold of MQA file (rendering) showing a purple dragonfly?


----------



## fljoe

revand said:


> To the attention of Apple iPhone and IPad owners:
> From Today if you update the TIDAL IOS app you can play now the TIDAL Masters tracks and albums reaching plenty of High - Res music!
> It is a great step forward towards high quality music listening on the go, which was not typical at Apple...
> Masters quality is shown with a capital letter M, provided you have a HIFI subscription and you have chosen Master quality clicking the quality sign (HIFI in blue color or Master in yellow color).
> ...



Woohoo .. no more using 3rd party player for playing Master Quality songs on my iPhone... Tidal on the iOS now natively works with MQA files both online & offline ... the second unfolding is done on my Dragonfly Black as seen below in the pic ... so thrilled!


----------



## revand

fljoe said:


> Woohoo .. no more using 3rd party player for playing Master Quality songs on my iPhone... Tidal on the iOS now natively works with MQA files both online & offline ... the second unfolding is done on my Dragonfly Black as seen below in the pic ... so thrilled!



Great thanks!
It is time to buy a camera adapter 
Is it right that the USB 3 camera adapter is sounding better with an external DAC than the one on your picture (USB 2)?


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## fljoe

revand said:


> Great thanks!
> It is time to buy a camera adapter
> Is it right that the USB 3 camera adapter is sounding better with an external DAC than the one on your picture (USB 2)?



It used to before .. they fixed the issue in some firmware update on the DFB/DFR and now the USB2 camera adapter is fine and I prefer it as it is less bulky.


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## Digeeedad (Mar 12, 2019)

fljoe said:


> Woohoo .. no more using 3rd party player for playing Master Quality songs on my iPhone... Tidal on the iOS now natively works with MQA files both online & offline ... the second unfolding is done on my Dragonfly Black as seen below in the pic ... so thrilled!


I’m using a DF Red, on my iPhone 8 Plus, and have the Tidal Music HiFi/Masters subscription. I updated the Tidal app and the albums/tracks that are being streamed in Master quality are show with the “M” indicator. However, so far, DFR is not showing that it is receiving a Master stream... its indicator light showing green instead of blue. I chose Master quality in the app settings. Is anyone using an iPhone able to receive a Master stream?
* I’m Red/green color blind. Is the Dragonfly’s color coding supposed to be blue for MAQ or another color? On my computer, using the DFR and streaming Master quality music, the DFR’s lidicator light is blue.


----------



## zuber

No, blue colour is not for MQA, see below:

DragonFly Red’s LED lights up in different colors to indicate status or sample rate:

Red: Standby
Green: 44.1 kHz
Blue: 48.0 kHz
Amber: 88.2 kHz
Magenta: 96.0 kHz
Purple: MQA
When an MQA file is played back with a player that supports the DragonFly MQA the LED will go to Purple. The problem of course is that this color is very close to Magenta. It is a little easier to tell on DragonFly BLACK, but on RED it is much harder to tell. We did not have a choice in the color, that was MQA decision.


----------



## Land-O-The-Free

Does anyone have a phot of Purple Vs Magenta on the red? I have updated Tidal and am running the Red, but I am not sure what color I am experiencing exactly...


----------



## mrwasabi

zuber said:


> No, blue colour is not for MQA, see below:
> 
> DragonFly Red’s LED lights up in different colors to indicate status or sample rate:
> 
> ...



Ugh, I'm color blind so this should be fun.


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## Digeeedad (Mar 13, 2019)

mrwasabi said:


> Ugh, I'm color blind so this should be fun.


Me too.... tons of fun! lol Magenta vs purple vs blue... yeah right! lol

* Using my DFR on my Windows 7, 10 year old computer, streaming Tidal Music Masters, the DFR displays a blue color (verified by my daughter lol). Would this mean that the computer isn’t able to stream at higher audio quality? DFR through my iPhone is sounding awesome and Is displaying the purple color. (I think)


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## Digeeedad (Mar 13, 2019)

Digeeedad said:


> Me too.... tons of fun! lol Magenta vs purple vs blue... yeah right! lol
> 
> * Using my DFR on my Windows 7, 10 year old computer, streaming Tidal Music Masters, the DFR displays a blue color (verified by my daughter lol). Would this mean that the computer isn’t able to stream at higher audio quality? DFR through my iPhone is sounding awesome and Is displaying the purple color. (I think)


----------



## zuber

I have just created picture showing different colours of Dragonfly.
It is not that easy to show true colors with just iPhone, but it should give you the general overview/idea.
I think the best representation was the zoom in of the end of the right wing (pictures at the bottom).

To call it simple: amber is like orange, magneta is pink, purple is purple 

The difference between magneta and pink is really hard to capture. Magneta is light and purple is dark.


----------



## Digeeedad

zuber said:


> I have just created picture showing different colours of Dragonfly.
> It is not that easy to show true colors with just iPhone, but it should give you the general overview/idea.
> I think the best representation was the zoom in of the end of the right wing (pictures at the bottom).
> 
> Thanks Zuber! Definitely helps, especially for my Red/green color blindness!


----------



## KraftD1 (Mar 20, 2019)

Anyone having issues with the DFR on the 2018 iPad Pro using Tidal?  When I use the red with my phone or iPad Air 2 via the older CCK then MQA works no problem.  On the iPad Pro with the official USB C -> A dongle on MQA tracks it flashes rapidly purple/orange and cuts out.  The dongle with DFR works fine otherwise. As it works on my phone and old iPad unlikely the Tidal app and it isn't streaming since it happens with downloaded mqa tracks too.  Busted dongle?  Problem with iPad Pro and DFR not playing well together?


----------



## JMCIII

I just got my DragonFly Red the other day. And combined with the AudioQuest Jitterbug makes my desktop and iPhone (along with the Apple Camera cable) Tidal listening time a true pleasure through my AudioQuest NightOwl headphones.


----------



## Bluray

JMCIII said:


> I just got my DragonFly Red the other day. And combined with the AudioQuest Jitterbug makes my desktop and iPhone (along with the Apple Camera cable) Tidal listening time a true pleasure through my AudioQuest NightOwl headphones.


Have the Red for a year now and mainly listened to MQA since it was purchased and I was pleased with sound reproduction quality. Last week I decided to listen songs in HIFI and what a shock! HIFI through RED sounds more realistic, alive, extended in high and lower frequencies, more engaging and rounded. MQA sound lower in volume at same volume setting, compressed, dry, not really engaging. I have gone back and forth HIFI - MQA many times with tons of recordings and still getting the same results. My set up is Microsoft Surface 3 tablet + RED 1.06 + Audioquest Victoria 3.5 to RCA connected straight to power amp. Volume control on Tidal is at MAX and volume output is controlled with power amp volume control. Has anyone experienced this ?


----------



## abirdie4me

KraftD1 said:


> Anyone having issues with the DFR on the 2018 iPad Pro using Tidal?  When I use the red with my phone or iPad Air 2 via the older CCK then MQA works no problem.  On the iPad Pro with the official USB C -> A dongle on MQA tracks it flashes rapidly purple/orange and cuts out.  The dongle with DFR works fine otherwise. As it works on my phone and old iPad unlikely the Tidal app and it isn't streaming since it happens with downloaded mqa tracks too.  Busted dongle?  Problem with iPad Pro and DFR not playing well together?



There is a thread on the Roon forums, it seems this is a known issue. Even though it is specific to Roon, it may be related to the issue you are having.

https://community.roonlabs.com/t/fu...ble-through-usb-c-port-of-2018-ipad-pro/57949


----------



## KraftD1

Same issue and being looked into by the Dragonfly's designer.  Thanks


----------



## thyname

Random question: 

What would be a good pair of headphones to use with a Dragonfly Red and an iPhone XR with Tidal Hi-Fi? Something that the Red drives sufficiently?

Either closed back or even IEMs. price: < $500


----------



## bassct

thyname said:


> Random question:
> 
> What would be a good pair of headphones to use with a Dragonfly Red and an iPhone XR with Tidal Hi-Fi? Something that the Red drives sufficiently?
> 
> Either closed back or even IEMs. price: < $500




Try looking for something with 32 or less Ohm of impedance and perhaps with a warm signature. ESS DACs are rather clinical, good detail retrieval, which i personally like. Are you looking for IEMs or headphones? 
Take look here for a comprehensive IEM list: https://crinacle.com/ranking-list/ .


----------



## thyname

bassct said:


> Try looking for something with 32 or less Ohm of impedance and perhaps with a warm signature. ESS DACs are rather clinical, good detail retrieval, which i personally like. Are you looking for IEMs or headphones?
> Take look here for a comprehensive IEM list: https://crinacle.com/ranking-list/ .



Thanks!

I am looking for something mobile as a secondary setup for headphones. I am total ignorant on IEMs, and the list you linked would be my starting point.

Open to other options as well, likely closed backs below $500 or so


----------



## Brahmsian

After reading a thread about how nowadays laptops come with very decent sound and you don’t need a product like this, I have to disagree. But how much you get out of the DFR depends a lot on what kind of headphones you’re trying to drive. For a lot of headphones the headphone jack on your phone or laptop might be enough. But often that’s not the case. My 2017 MBP cannot drive my HE560. When I plug the latter into the headphone jack, the left channel sounds sucked out, the bass is weak and loose, and the volume tops out too fast. Adding the DFR, the soundscape widens, deepens, and becomes more centered. Instrument tone improves. There’s more detail. And I’m able to drive the volume higher. Totally worth it.


----------



## revand

thyname said:


> Random question:
> 
> What would be a good pair of headphones to use with a Dragonfly Red and an iPhone XR with Tidal Hi-Fi? Something that the Red drives sufficiently?
> 
> Either closed back or even IEMs. price: < $500





I am using the Dragonfly Red with my Meze 99 Classics, which cost you $309 and sounds very well with the DRF Red, and portable using it's carrying case.
DRF Red is very neutral, so the warm, bassy sound of the Meze is excellently complementing the Red.



If someone wants to enjoy a really great sounding mobile setup should buy a Vorzüge Vorzamp Pure II+, one of the best portable headphone amp available.
The setup on the picture is now decoding MQA (I am using the UAPP Android app offering MQA first unfold).
My XIAOMI M8 phone is connected to the AQ DRF Red with a Nonda adapter (with OTG function), and the DRF Red is connected to the amp with an excellent Inakustik Premium jack - jack cable.


----------



## The Socialist Nerd

I use the DragonFly Red to push my Audeze LCD-2CB's and Mobius headphones with complete ease. Blows my mind how well this all goes!


----------



## Sotiris

Can someone propose me a OTG cable? The dragonfly OTG is too hard and keeps disconnecting from the galaxy S8


----------



## megabigeye

I use this Insignia one.  It works well-- starts a little stiff, but softens up, doesn't quite cover the whole USB plug on the DFR, but grips well so it's never come apart.


----------



## dhm78

Sotiris said:


> Can someone propose me a OTG cable? The dragonfly OTG is too hard and keeps disconnecting from the galaxy S8


I haven't had any problems with this cable...

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01LWOAUFM/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


----------



## lcasadonte

thyname said:


> Random question:
> 
> What would be a good pair of headphones to use with a Dragonfly Red and an iPhone XR with Tidal Hi-Fi? Something that the Red drives sufficiently?
> 
> Either closed back or even IEMs. price: < $500


I went with Beyer T5p's originally but carrying around headphones is rough on the headphones.  I ultimately got tia fortes for travel.


----------



## SmashBruh

Has anyone tested the DFR as a pure DAC vs other DACs within its price range? (Things like the Modi 3, D30, D50 etc...)

I have both the modi 3 and the DFR but whenever I try and a/b the two devices with my CTH I find it nearly impossible because of where my electronics are set up. Would love to hear if anyone else has tried this and what they found!


----------



## WilliamLeonhart

SmashBruh said:


> Has anyone tested the DFR as a pure DAC vs other DACs within its price range? (Things like the Modi 3, D30, D50 etc...)
> 
> I have both the modi 3 and the DFR but whenever I try and a/b the two devices with my CTH I find it nearly impossible because of where my electronics are set up. Would love to hear if anyone else has tried this and what they found!


I don’t think the DF can output unamped, un altered signal so it isn’t a pure DAC in that sense. That said if you can’t hear the difference, maybe sell the Modi and buy something else? Personally I prefer the Modi MB, entirely different sound sig


----------



## Fasterball

SmashBruh said:


> Has anyone tested the DFR as a pure DAC vs other DACs within its price range? (Things like the Modi 3, D30, D50 etc...)
> 
> I have both the modi 3 and the DFR but whenever I try and a/b the two devices with my CTH I find it nearly impossible because of where my electronics are set up. Would love to hear if anyone else has tried this and what they found!


It absolutely can be used as a dedicated DAC.  It's in the manual that all you do is set the volume to 100 percent and then connect it to the ins on the amp of your choosing.  I have the DFR into the Magni 3 at work and I really like this combo.  DFR is bright and energetic and combos really well with darker headphones. At home I have the Burson Playmate and while it sounds better than the DFR - the DFR is very close.  It can absolutely be used as a dedicated DAC.  I think this into a tube amp would sound amazing.


----------



## tan1415

Have anyone compared the df black with creative sxfi amp?
Purely as dac/amp?


----------



## a-LeXx (Apr 3, 2019)

WilliamLeonhart said:


> I don’t think the DF can output unamped, un altered signal so it isn’t a pure DAC in that sense. That said if you can’t hear the difference, maybe sell the Modi and buy something else? Personally I prefer the Modi MB, entirely different sound sig



It's just your opinion  Of course it can. Set DFR to max volume, and it will output a pure 2.1Vrms level signal, which is kind of home electronics standard value. If you will reduce the volume from max, you will digitally attenuate the signal. With volume set to max, there is no digital attenuation, you are getting the same as you'd get from any other DAC. It's not like DFR has any sort of a massive output buffer or anything, it's actually as clean as a sabre DAC can get... DFB on the other hand has some analog volume control circuitry (implemented through gain control), hence is not as 'pure' as a DFR, also the output level is no match to DFR.


----------



## megabigeye

SmashBruh said:


> Has anyone tested the DFR as a pure DAC vs other DACs within its price range? (Things like the Modi 3, D30, D50 etc...)
> 
> I have both the modi 3 and the DFR but whenever I try and a/b the two devices with my CTH I find it nearly impossible because of where my electronics are set up. Would love to hear if anyone else has tried this and what they found!


I'd like to reiterate that the DFR can be used as a standalone DAC if you set the volume to 100%.  The only other similarly priced DAC I can compare it to is the original FiiO X5, and the DFR sounds a little more lively to my ear... but it's so close that I wouldn't be surprised if it were just a placebo effect.  On the other hand, the amp section on the DFR is way, way better than the X5, which was thin and bright (not that it really matters for your sake since the X5 Mk. 1 hasn't been made for years).


----------



## JMCIII

a-LeXx said:


> It's just your opinion  Of course it can. Set DFR to max volume, and it will output a pure 2.1Vrms level signal, which is kind of home electronics standard value. If you will reduce the volume from max, you will digitally attenuate the signal. With volume set to max, there is no digital attenuation, you are getting the same as you'd get from any other DAC. It's not like DFR has any sort of a massive output buffer or anything, it's actually as clean as a sabre DAC can get... DFB on the other hand has some analog volume control circuitry (implemented through gain control), hence is not as 'pure' as a DFR, also the output level is no match to DFR.




And just how does one “adjust” to volume of the DF Red?


----------



## a-LeXx

JMCIII said:


> And just how does one “adjust” to volume of the DF Red?



As I said, it's done completely digitally, using the available headroom (sabre DAC itself is a 32-bit-DAC, inputs are only 24-bit). Which means, actually SNR is getting worse when you reduce the volume on DFR, because the gain and hence noise level itself is constant. But this is actually a non-issue, as the SNR stays good enough...

On the DFB, on the other hand, you are indeed adjusting the gain, so that reduction of volume would also reduce noise level...

As you can see, there are pros/cons for every approach, but DFR is definitivelly a better DAC...


----------



## The Socialist Nerd

Tested my DragonFly Red with my Moto G7 Power and iPad Air and so far both are rocking!


----------



## ggeinec

The Socialist Nerd said:


> Tested my DragonFly Red with my Moto G7 Power and iPad Air and so far both are rocking!



Nice. I'm looking at the other G7 (not the G7 Power) for my next phone. Headphone jack and external memory card both are important to me.

What are you using to connect the DFR to your G7?

Do you use the DFR with Spotify or Napster\Rhapsody?

Do you get good clean sound with streaming or do you get stray pops and clicks or other anomalies?

Thanks!


----------



## wizzman121

Is anyone else using a black or red with on-board Android music player "Google Play Music"?  I have my entire local music collection mirrored into Google Play for remote access.  That said when I use the black I often get a brief digital distortion and scratching for a second or two at the beginning of a new track.  There is clearly some incompatibility with the output sample rate as the LED teeter totters between green and blue.


----------



## gefellmics (Apr 20, 2019)

Today I got my Dragonfly Black. I want to use it with UAPP (USB Mode) and my Huawei P20 Lite. Unfortunately I got strong digi-noises with the Dragonfly. I tried many different sound options with UAPP without any success. Later I realized, that I got the same Diginoises with other apps like Onkyo HD Player or Neutron.
The connection cable is a iFi Audio OTG Kabel Typ USB-C. I used different sources (Tidal and mp3, aac or FLAC from SD Card).

The Dragonfly works perfectly with my Asus Notebook or in the same configuration with the LG V20 from my friend. No issuses there.
Very frustrating....

Maybe the Dragonfly don't work with Huawei Smartphones??

Any suggestions or ideas or similar experiences??


----------



## bk123

Sorry for asking this dumb question. My current DAP is Astell & Kern Jr. Though I'm happy with its performance, just wondering if I can use Dragonfly Red with it.
If so, will it enhance the sound significantly.


----------



## kushanukum

bk123 said:


> Sorry for asking this dumb question. My current DAP is Astell & Kern Jr. Though I'm happy with its performance, just wondering if I can use Dragonfly Red with it.
> If so, will it enhance the sound significantly.


----------



## bassct

bk123 said:


> Sorry for asking this dumb question. My current DAP is Astell & Kern Jr. Though I'm happy with its performance, just wondering if I can use Dragonfly Red with it.
> If so, will it enhance the sound significantly.



Take look and read this: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...rements-of-dacport-hd-and-dragonfly-red.5977/ 

 For what it is, DFR is a cool little device. But this review shows that it falls into the lower portion of all measured devices. Not so cool. 

 It works good and delivers good results with IEMs. Full size cans with xxx impedance is another story. Your DAP is probably better, with more features.


----------



## megabigeye

Well crap.  My DFR just developed a problem with the jack cutting out causing some frequencies to sound really distant.  I tested with another pair of IEMs-- so I know it's not my 'phones-- and the problem can be alleviated by jiggling and holding the plug inside the jack-- so I know it's not my phone-- but that's not a real solution.

The warranty info on their website is vaguely confusing (or, at any rate, it's written so that it's open to interpretation), but I'm not hopeful that my DFR is still covered.
*Has anybody sent their DragonFly (either Red or Black) for out of warranty repairs?  How was the experience?  How much did it cost and was it a fixed cost or was it based on the problem?*
I've sent an e-mail to their warranty/RMA center, but I want to gauge whether or not I want to go through with repairs or just replace it.  I like this device a lot, but it's certainly not perfect.  Either way, I'm bummed.


----------



## Sp12er3

When most of my gear are pretty light and I mostly use the Dragonfly with IEMs, is it worth it to upgrade to the Reds?


----------



## Donie Ray Samba-an (May 5, 2019)

Has anybody noticed that when plugging DFR with laptop, it sounds really good. Soundstage is wide enough. However, when I paired it with iphone SE, soundstage is narrowed and instruments start to sound bit of place.


----------



## apirat

What’s the best OTG to Lightning cable for iPhone?


----------



## fljoe

apirat said:


> What’s the best OTG to Lightning cable for iPhone?


The one sold by apple. It is called the Camera Connection Kit (CCK).


----------



## davescleveland

Not sure if it’s been said before but the xtrempro usb Dax amp in my iPhone with battery pack for $35 beats both of my dragonfly DACs. Both. Hot damn. $35. Amazing.


----------



## Double C

apirat said:


> What’s the best OTG to Lightning cable for iPhone?



Apple's Camera Connection Kit


----------



## dsiebenh

Where is the MQA light on the dragonfly?

Audioquest says that the light on the dragonfly will glow magenta to indicate an MQA feed. I do not believe that this color shows anything about MQA; rather, it seems to me that it indicates a 96 kHz bit rate.

Everything seems to work perfectly using TIDAL. And the device itself sounds fantastic.

However, if I stop TIDAL on OS X, and change the bit rate of the audio feed using OS X audio MIDI setup, and then go play a file from iTunes, the lights on the dragonfly change to whatever bit rate I selected using audio MIDI setup. My understanding of iTunes is that it can only send out audio at 44.1 kHz, and that it has nothing to do with MQA.

Therefore, I do not believe that the lights on the dragonfly reflect an MQA feed when they glow purple. If the data source is iTunes, there is no way the MQA should ever be indicated. There is no MQA data anywhere.

It seems to me that OS X is upsampling iTunes audio from 44.1 kHz to whatever bit rate I select using audio midi set up. And then the dragonfly just turns on the lights to echo the bit rate of whatever audio is being sent from the operating system.

I don't think there's light has anything to do with MQA. What am I getting wrong?


----------



## Devodonaldson

dsiebenh said:


> Where is the MQA light on the dragonfly?
> 
> Audioquest says that the light on the dragonfly will glow magenta to indicate an MQA feed. I do not believe that this color shows anything about MQA; rather, it seems to me that it indicates a 96 kHz bit rate.
> 
> ...


 iOS definitely sends the audio as the correct bit rate. I've done this with both dragonfly red and ifi XDSD. Tidal HiFi tracks are green, Master tracks get the pink/purple. The MQA does not always mean 24/96. So unfold to higher bit rates. I've played same tracks on Android with UAPP app that shows me the unfolded bit rate. Some older music unfolds to 192khz. Definitely no upsampling gong on in iOS to external DAC on Tidal. All the output of bit rate is done in the app which is why it can output above 24/48. Only reason I switched from Android over to iOS for my audio needs.


----------



## Double C

Devodonaldson said:


> iOS definitely sends the audio as the correct bit rate. I've done this with both dragonfly red and ifi XDSD. Tidal HiFi tracks are green, Master tracks get the pink/purple. The MQA does not always mean 24/96. So unfold to higher bit rates. I've played same tracks on Android with UAPP app that shows me the unfolded bit rate. Some older music unfolds to 192khz. Definitely no upsampling gong on in iOS to external DAC on Tidal. All the output of bit rate is done in the app which is why it can output above 24/48. Only reason I switched from Android over to iOS for my audio needs.



I think dsiebenh was referring to MAC OSX not IOS.


----------



## dsiebenh

The point is, if tidal is not running on the Mac, there is no way to get MQA information on to the dragonfly. Why does the dragonfly indicate that it has MQA data? ITunes sends the data without MQA at 44.1 kHz; the Mac upsamples it to 96 kHz, and the dragonfly shows dark purple light indicating MQA. If I use audio MIDI set up on the Mac to to change the mac's outbound sample rate, the dragonfly will simply reflect that speed, ie 44.1 kHz, etc.

If the Mac is not sending MQA data, then why is the dragonfly indicating that it is receiving MQA data?


----------



## Roll

dsiebenh said:


> Where is the MQA light on the dragonfly?
> 
> Audioquest says that the light on the dragonfly will glow magenta to indicate an MQA feed. I do not believe that this color shows anything about MQA; rather, it seems to me that it indicates a 96 kHz bit rate.
> 
> ...



Are u saying that if u are not running Tidal, your dragonfly still lighted up in Purple? At least on Windows, my unit changes from purple if not running MQA


----------



## Devodonaldson

dsiebenh said:


> The point is, if tidal is not running on the Mac, there is no way to get MQA information on to the dragonfly. Why does the dragonfly indicate that it has MQA data? ITunes sends the data without MQA at 44.1 kHz; the Mac upsamples it to 96 kHz, and the dragonfly shows dark purple light indicating MQA. If I use audio MIDI set up on the Mac to to change the mac's outbound sample rate, the dragonfly will simply reflect that speed, ie 44.1 kHz, etc.
> 
> If the Mac is not sending MQA data, then why is the dragonfly indicating that it is receiving MQA data?


It's not indicating MQA, it's indicating a 96khz freq as you mentioned earlier. The colors are close, but they are different. Your audio it seems to be getting upsampled to the max DAC freq


----------



## DeepSouth

Double C said:


> Apple's Camera Connection Kit


I wish there was a better option. 
I've been going back and forth between apple and AQ Carbon usb-lightning cable in my cars. AQ sounds a lot better in 2 cars, and marginally better in the third.  
I suspect a better lightning to female USB cable would have at least a small but audible impact.


----------



## zuber

dsiebenh said:


> Audioquest says that the light on the dragonfly will glow magenta to indicate an MQA feed.


Are you sure about this? MQA is indicated by purple.



Devodonaldson said:


> The colors are close, but they are different.


Yes, see my post here:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/new-dragonfly-black-and-red-discussion.805832/page-320#post-14833735


----------



## scarfacegt

The ipad pro/ios cant handle mqa? I tried tidal yesterday with dragonfly black and and dragonfly usb c cable to the ipad pro 2018 version with usb c.music with mqa dont work.it lags and stuff.music without mqa works fine.tried it on my samsung s9 pluss,and mqa works fine


----------



## Lucas headphonebrz

Hi guys I wanna buy a dragonfly 1.0 Black to use in my IEMs, but I want to use in my Iphone 7 too, it is possible? I will buy the adaptor but I read somewhere that is impossible to connect the 1.0 version to Iphone due to the energy power that is required. Can anyone help me with this issue? 
And one other question.. I was wondering if the version 1.0 and the 1.5 it is too different or almost the same to use in IEMs?


----------



## Sp12er3

1.5 is the latest which is made specifically to be able to be used on mobile phones (Android and iPhone alike)
It's because it sap less power form the phone it ended up jot triggering the power draw limit the phone has and also, it preserve the phone's battery better.


----------



## dhm78

Silly question.....My Samsung Tablet won't work with my Dragonfly Red so I was wondering what the minimum operating system you'd need on a Tablet to use the Red and preferably MQA. Thanks!


----------



## west0ne

dhm78 said:


> Silly question.....My Samsung Tablet won't work with my Dragonfly Red so I was wondering what the minimum operating system you'd need on a Tablet to use the Red and preferably MQA. Thanks!



I've had the DFB working on Android 5.x.

I couldn't get it working on an old Galaxy Tab either and that was running 6.x so it isn't about software version but has more to do with the way Samsung has set up the audio output routing.


----------



## suzuki (May 26, 2019)

Hi,

I have the Dragonfly Red and I am very happy with the sound coming out of this thing.

Wasn’t so happy at the start and was leaving it the draw for a while till a few days ago where I made some changes to the settings in ITunes and my laptop and now I cannot stop listing to it. It’s like a drug and I am addicted.

System is a Sony Vaio Windows 7 laptop- ITunes- Audioquest Dragontail-Jitterbug-Red-Yuin OK1

These are the setting I changed and now I know what all the hype is about. Hope it helps some people get great sound to enrich their lives.

This is for AAC 256. Don’t knock AAC256 as it can sound awesome. I have no urge to look for higher resolution as I am very happy with this considering file size and quality.

In ITunes set main system volume set to 100%. The one next to the play/pause/rewind.

Equalizer set to flat.

Go to edit-preferences-playback.

Uncheck crossfade songs, sound enhanced and sound check

ITunes  play audio using direct sound, sample rate for audio 44.1kh bits per sample for audio is 24 bit. Close iTunes and open to apply changes.

Now laptop changes. *Important*. Make sure ITunes is open and playing music with the Dragonfly to see all the settings in the volume mixer.

*Now on to the volume mixer*

Click on the volume/speaker at the bottom right of your taskbar and click on the mixer and you will see 3 device applications (speakers, system sounds and ITunes as the screen shot shows below.

Set the speaker volume at around 60 and the ITunes at 25. I have found that if the ITunes volume here is set too high then there is too much gain sent to the Dragonfly and it can be too loud too early when the speaker volume is raised and give a  hard, harsh sibilant sound when the main speaker volume is raised only a small amount. Play with these 2 settings. The system sound volume doesn’t do anything here so don’t worry about it Just remember that the ITunes level here will act like a preamp and the speakers volume like an amp. As you move the speaker volume the ITunes volume will also move so don't worry about that. Just use the 60-20 mentioned above as you're starting point and use the speaker volume as your main volume. Don't use the ITunes volume control here as your main volume control. Set and forget and use the speaker volume control only which is after all the Dragonfly Red volume control.







Still in the volume mixer.

Now double click on system sounds-playback and click on the Dragonfly speakers and click on  properties click on advanced and set Dragonfly to 24 bit 44.1 uncheck allow applications to take control uncheck give exclusive mode. Click OK. Also make sure this is set as your default player here.

Then click on Speaker realtek hp-properties-advanced and set to 24bit 44.1 check allow applications to take control and check give exclusive mode.

Done.






These setting might work on other music apps other than ITunes?

And remember that if your system updates check  the settings again as they might default to other settings. And if you update ITunes check the settings there also as they will definitely have changed to default.

Hope this helps music lovers out there as the Dragonfly Red is all that.


----------



## Sp12er3

I'm confused, I thought the manual recommends to max the speaker volume and adjust the volume from the app, not the other way, around... Was i wrong?


----------



## suzuki

Sp12er3 said:


> I'm confused, I thought the manual recommends to max the speaker volume and adjust the volume from the app, not the other way, around... Was i wrong?



Hi,

As mentioned above max it on the main ITunes page, ie the volume control next to the play/pause rewind button.

Then go to the bottom right of your task bar, click on the speaker and then click the mixer to bring up the pc volume controls and put the speaker volume to 60 and the ITunes volume control in the mixer to 25. The speaker volume control which is the Dragonfly is then the main volume control.


----------



## jamescodway

fljoe said:


> It used to before .. they fixed the issue in some firmware update on the DFB/DFR and now the USB2 camera adapter is fine and I prefer it as it is less bulky.



From the Audioquest DFB/DFR site. This equates with my own very recent experience.

—-
In some rare instances, the combination of an iOS device in conjunction with the standard CCK and DragonFly Black or Red causes a clicking in the background of the music.

Neither we nor Apple have been able to determine why that is, but in circumstances where this occurs we’ve found that using Apple’s Lightning to USB 3.0 Camera Connection Kit resolves the problem. In addition, this connector offers improved audio performance over the smaller unit and gives the end user the ability to charge their iOS device while listening to music.
—-


----------



## Lucas headphonebrz (May 27, 2019)

Hi guys I will receive my combo [jitterbug+ dragonfly red + câmera kit iPhone 3.0) tomorrow , and I have an IEMs , a custom in ear .
It’s an IEMs with triple balanced armor , I spent 300$ in the combo and I really don’t know what to expect that this combo gonna provide me .
I don’t know if the in ear is affected by it the same way headphones are , beçuse I just see people commenting on their headphones results .
In a nutshell I’m a bit afraid if I did the correct thing , because I’m seeking for a brighter song with low bass , and I stand against mojo and DFR.
Every comment that I see the mojo wins , but I saw some comments saying that DFR is more brighter and thin .
I hope that I like , because the mojo is really expensive for me , I need to spent like 800$ to import the product since my country (Brazil ) have high fees and there are no one selling this product in internet here . So the DFR is all that I can afford , after listening to it ,  I ll return her to say if it’s worth for me  .


----------



## JM1979

Lucas headphonebrz said:


> Hi guys I will receive my combo [jitterbug+ dragonfly red + câmera kit iPhone 3.0) tomorrow , and I have an IEMs , a custom in ear .
> It’s an IEMs with triple balanced armor , I spent 300$ in the combo and I really don’t know what to expect that this combo gonna provide me .
> I don’t know if the in ear is affected by it the same way headphones are , beçuse I just see people commenting on their headphones results .
> In a nutshell I’m a bit afraid if I did the correct thing , because I’m seeking for a brighter song with low bass , and I stand against mojo and DFR.
> ...



Personally, I love the iPhone>CCK>Jitterbug>DFR chain with iems. 

The Jitterbug makes a noticeable difference after a lot of listening. 

I wouldn’t describe this combo as bright though. It’s not dark or warm but the Jitterbug/DFR working together make for a blacker background and truer sound. After that it’s probably up to your source and the iems to make the sonic difference.


----------



## davescleveland

Does the jitterbug really make a difference with an iPhone?


----------



## D3Seeker

I love this thing! Got the Black with Crutchfield's speakercompare rental kit and omg! So resolving and energetic. It make my S8 actually work while as a portable player (finally beating the S4 with viper.) I'm attacking e-bay to gift myself a red within the next week.


----------



## ajuztam

Hi. After an update to v1.07 of my Dragonfly Black v1.5 I can hear a lot of hum noise both from laptop and android. The volume is way to high for all my earphones. I even got an aliexpress usb filter but no help. Does anybody know how to revert back to v1.06?


----------



## scarfacegt (May 30, 2019)

ajuztam said:


> Hi. After an update to v1.07 of my Dragonfly Black v1.5 I can hear a lot of hum noise both from laptop and android. The volume is way to high for all my earphones. I even got an aliexpress usb filter but no help. Does anybody know how to revert back to v1.06?




Hmmm,my dragonfly black had the same problem.Lots of hiss/noise and volume too high.On my phone i just touched the volume one dial up an it was already high.I used the fiio fa7 on them.But i ended up selling my dragonfly.I thougt they didnt match my iems 

I bought the dragonfly in march,and updated straight away.


----------



## Sp12er3

Is it a known issue or something?
I need to be careful and not update mine then, I use it mainly with IEMs after all.


----------



## ajuztam (May 30, 2019)

I don't know if it is an known issue but now my sony smartphone sounds much nicer with kz as10 earphones. It's better with klipsh but still annoying. I emailed audioquest and i'm waiting for reply. Do not update if you don't have to.


----------



## ajuztam

So I got an answer from Audioquest. The dragonfly cannot be downgraded to previous versions, so If your dac is working fine do not update.


----------



## Caguioa

Hello 

how "big" would this be an upgrade over my fiio a3?

also how well does it run full size heapdhones like hd800s


----------



## jamescodway

Caguioa said:


> Hello
> 
> how "big" would this be an upgrade over my fiio a3?
> 
> also how well does it run full size heapdhones like hd800s



I have not heard the A3 but I have been very impressed & satisfied with DFR (straight out of iPhone 6s or MacBook Pro 2010) with Senn HD650, Shure SRH940, Beyer DT250-250, Grado RS1 and especially the B&O H6 v1. This is in comparison with the following DACs/Amps...

Audiolab M-DAC v1
Rega DAC V1
Graham Slee Solo Ultra Linear v1
Shanling PH100
Marantz HD-DAC. 

However, with HD800 (16XXX serial, no mods), as with so many other DACS/amps, it is disappointing, cool and thin (!).

With good pairings, I find it has authority, detail, soundstage, timing and tonal balance... satisfying. The RS1s were a real surprise match, the HD650s less so as they sound good in different ways with amps of some power or detail. 

With the HD800, I have not tried it as a DAC into another amp.


----------



## Lucas headphonebrz (Jun 6, 2019)

My DFR just arrived and I realise that I need to buy a CCK to run it on my Iphone 7.
Well, that`s nice but there is two CCK, the CCK 2 and CCK USB 3.0   .  There is any difference in sound quality? I read a quote in Audioquest website saying that the CCK 3.0 sounds better, I didn`t know it until today, is that really true?

EDIT: Also I see people in this forum saying that there is no difference and the sound . But I see some people saying that they hear a noise in the background with the CCK 2

Quote : "
PeteMtl said: ↑
This is completely untrue. Both adapters now provide the exact same audio quality without any issues. Audioquest used to recommend only the USB3 3.0 Apple camera adaptor because there was a known issue between the USB2 2.0 camera adapter and the DFR. The issue was related to iOS compatibility and there were clicks and pops in the sound because of that. Since iOS 11.2 or 11.3 in 2017 the issues regarding the USB2 2.0 Apple camera adapter with DFR are over and both Apple adapters are completely okay for usage with the DFR. One is less bulkier, the other one provides recharging of iPhone or iPad while using the DFR, but soundwise, there are no audible differences whatsoever. Anybody arguing the contrary is just spreading pure snake oil. I’ve owned the DFR for a couple of years and have used it with both adapters with different iphones and ipads. I therefore speak of what I know about this whole issue. I have noticed the issue in the past with iOS 10 and early versions of iOS 11 with the 2.0 adapter and I can testify that the issue regarding the USB adapter were genuine and that the same issue is now a thing of the past. I now use both the 2.0 and the 3.0 Apple camera adapters without issues with my iphone X and ipad Pro 9,7. As a matter of fact I use the 2.0 quite more often with my HD600, HD6XX and HD58X Sennheiser headphones. So you may use the adapter you choose, but it’s rather a question of features and form factor, not a question of sound quality."


----------



## Lucas headphonebrz (Jun 11, 2019)

So as I said , I just receive my dragonfly red and jitterbug , but using it with my IEMs I didn’t notice difference in the sound , except that is louder .
The sound quality is almost the same , at least for what I hear today .
I join DFR with jitterbug in my IEMs triple balanced.
I think that with IEMs that is already expensive .. it won’t change much the SOUND QUALITY.
So if you already have good IEMs , the principal difference you will hear is a cleaner soundstage without some “noise” that USB ports of laptops can make .

I’m a bit disappointing , in my Full size headphones I could listen the difference , but what I am up to is IEMs , so I just waste 275$ .
But its ok , I will keep it with me , who knows if in the future they can have utility in some different in ear that I buy . That’s it .

edit 1:
I did the tests in my iPhone.. in my MacBook I didn’t test yet because I couldn’t find some equalizer to use with dragonfly red , I was using Eqmac but I see that I can’t use eqmac with DFR because Eqmac works like an output and DFR too.


----------



## Carabei

You will probably hear the difference after some listening when you switch back. Question is, what IEMs do you use? Some reacts to different source more than others.


----------



## Lucas headphonebrz

Carabei said:


> You will probably hear the difference after some listening when you switch back. Question is, what IEMs do you use? Some reacts to different source more than others.



I use one made in Brazil (a custom) it’s a neutral IEMs that have this characteristic proeminent : reveal everything in the records , even the small details .
Só as my IEMs have this capacity , nothing change with DFR because they are already quite good in this area.
And I prefer they neutrality , rather then the bit brightness offered by DFR , it’s a bit but I can perceive .
But I find DFR a lot convenient to use too !


----------



## megabigeye

Lucas headphonebrz said:


> I use one made in Brazil (a custom) it’s a neutral IEMs that have this characteristic proeminent : reveal everything in the records , even the small details .
> Só as my IEMs have this capacity , nothing change with DFR because they are already quite good in this area.
> And I prefer they neutrality , rather then the bit brightness offered by DFR , it’s a bit but I can perceive .
> But I find DFR a lot convenient to use too !


I'm sorry to hear you're not liking the DFR with your IEMs.  My suggestion is to give it a little more time before completely giving up hope.

I can definitely hear a difference in quality between using it and my phone (Samsung S9, Essential PH-1, HTC One M8) with my IEMs (Westone UM Pro 50, JAYS q-JAYS, RHA T20i).  I also fancy I can hear a slight positive difference between it and my FiiO X5+E12A setup, though it's subtle enough that I might be hearing volume differences, etc.  The difference between the DFR and my MacBook Air are definitely subtle– too subtle to notice in regular listening.

What you can hear definitely has a lot to do with your preferences and points of reference.  I would never call the DFR bright– to me it sounds completely neutral– but then I'm coming from other gear that, to me, sounds neutral.  If your iPhone and PC are a little bit dark or restrained in the treble, then I can see how the DFR would sound bright by comparison.  If my S9 were my only frame of reference, I'd probably find the DFR to be a bit bright, as well.  Likewise, if your reference is a very bass heavy headphone, a neutral one will sound anemic by comparison.

It's also difficult for us to judge your problem since none of us knows your IEMs.  You say they're neutral and revealing– but if nobody but you knows how they sound, nobody can say how detailed and neutral they actually are.  Again, if they're your only point of reference, what sounds neutral and highly detailed to you might sound colored and featureless to somebody else.  I'm not saying the is necessarily the case, but it's hard for us to rule out if we don't know anything about your IEMs other than your impressions of them.

Again, I think you should give the DFR some time.  @Carabei is right, there's a funny phenomenon wherein it's hard to hear differences when going from good gear to great, but it's easier when you switch from great gear to good.  I'd recommend listening to the DFR exclusively for several days, trying to not compare it to your other sources.  Relax and listen to the music!  Try to turn off the critical part of your brain– I know that's more easily said than done, but it's worth a try.  See if you can get to a point where the brightness is no longer driving you nuts.  After a couple days when you've reached a point that it no longer annoys you every time you think about it, then go back and compare the DFR against your iPhone and PC.  I'm not saying you'll necessarily suddenly hear a huge difference, but I think you might be surprised.

Anyway, good luck!


----------



## Lucas headphonebrz

Thanks for the explanation @megabigeye , it really helps me. I will do what you say and hear them without comparing to my other sources at all.
Maybe what I call “brightness” can be related to a loud volume that the dfr gives , I will try to control it better and post here after a while .
This forum is really helpful , I’m glad that people just help each other with things like this


----------



## Junior9

Hi.
I'd been happily using DFR with my Samsung S7. Then I replaced my S7 with Samsung S10 plus. S10 plus, possibly the Exynos variant,  in my experience and also others' that I read on the net, doesn't work well with DFR. It keeps making this ear-breaking crackling noises every minute or so. 
For my work and also for listening purposes, at the moment I'm looking for an additional android phone that's quite new (released within the last 12 months) and quite affordable (preferably under USD 300). Does anyone has any experience what phones in that category that definitely work well with DFR? I just want to make sure.


----------



## Keno18

Junior9 said:


> Hi.
> I'd been happily using DFR with my Samsung S7. Then I replaced my S7 with Samsung S10 plus. S10 plus, possibly the Exynos variant,  in my experience and also others' that I read on the net, doesn't work well with DFR. It keeps making this ear-breaking crackling noises every minute or so.
> For my work and also for listening purposes, at the moment I'm looking for an additional android phone that's quite new (released within the last 12 months) and quite affordable (preferably under USD 300). Does anyone has any experience what phones in that category that definitely work well with DFR? I just want to make sure.


You can look at the Samsung J7 V 3rd gen. Although this model is for Verizon there are probably variants for other carriers.


----------



## Lucas headphonebrz

Someone knows how to use the dragonfly red with equalizer in MacBook ?
I used to use EQMAC2 but I just can’t use this program since that program require output sound to works , and the DFR use the same output 
So , if I select one, I lost the other one .
I saw some posts about the program AUlab and forest something , but it didn’t work

If anyone here have MacBook and know how to use equalizer with DFR , help pls!
I give up trying to search for a solution in web...


----------



## alecita

How much of an upgrade will a dragonfly red be to http://fatal1ty.com/sound-blaster-x-fi-titanium-fatal1ty-champion-series/

Both have 24 bit 96 khz so is not much of an upgrade?, or still is due to the way the dragonfly works and I think my sound card doesnt amp the headphones?, it sounds loud enough with a hd 600

Worths the investment on dragonfly?


----------



## caretaker98

Hello, 

I recently bought the dragonfly red with the Apple USB 3.0 adapter (https://www.amazon.com/Apple-Lightn...s=gateway&sprefix=apple+usb+3+,aps,128&sr=8-3) .

I bought the dragonfly red on amazon and a separate USB 3.0 adapter ending up with two adapters. My intended use was portable with my iphone xs. However, any minor disturbance to the USB cable causes the dragonfly to disconnect. I had the same issue with both adapters. The only way I can use the DFR with my iphone is to place it on my desk being very careful not to move it. Is this a known adapter issue or have I just had bad luck with two faulty Apple USB 3.0 adapters? Or is the issue potentially related to the dragonfly red I purchased? 

Appreciate y'alls input.


----------



## CactusPete23

caretaker98 said:


> Hello,
> 
> I recently bought the dragonfly red with the Apple USB 3.0 adapter (https://www.amazon.com/Apple-Lightning-USB3-Camera-Adapter/dp/B01F7KJDIM/ref=sr_1_3?crid=2CE4XDKO9FYKL&keywords=apple+usb+3+camera+adapter&qid=1560970809&s=gateway&sprefix=apple+usb+3+,aps,128&sr=8-3) .
> 
> ...


Those are all possibilities.  But most iPhone users don't report this problem.   Could also be that your phone has a loose/damaged/dirty jack?  That would also be a "common source" of the problem you are having.  Mught try cleaning with some electronic's contact cleaner, or >90% Isopropanol.
Also, Someone had mentioned that iPhones need to be above something like 20% remaining charge; or they start to have difficulty supplying the power needed to power the DFR..


----------



## caretaker98

CactusPete23 said:


> Those are all possibilities.  But most iPhone users don't report this problem.   Could also be that your phone has a loose/damaged/dirty jack?  That would also be a "common source" of the problem you are having.  Mught try cleaning with some electronic's contact cleaner, or >90% Isopropanol.
> Also, Someone had mentioned that iPhones need to be above something like 20% remaining charge; or they start to have difficulty supplying the power needed to power the DFR..



Thanks for the input. I don't have similar issues while charging the iphone using the lightning cable. Do you think it could be a faulty jack nevertheless? I actually have some isopropanol at home so I could attempt at cleaning the jack out. Perhaps I just cough up for another apple USB adapter.​


----------



## CactusPete23

caretaker98 said:


> Thanks for the input. I don't have similar issues while charging the iphone using the lightning cable. Do you think it could be a faulty jack nevertheless? I actually have some isopropanol at home so I could attempt at cleaning the jack out. Perhaps I just cough up for another apple USB adapter.​


Would not expect both new genuine apple adapters to have problems.  (unless they are fake ones?).  So getting a third would not be my first choice. 

Simple test to try:
When connected to your phone.  Try keeping everything in place; but wiggle the dfr to Apple adapter connection.  Does that duplicate the cutting out.   If not, try moving the Phone to Apple Adapter connection, Does that re-create the drop outs.    It's likely one of the other if it works well when still and nothing is flexing.   

Also worth trying:  
Can you test that the DFR is working fine using a computer; Or another phone (Apple or Android) just to prove that the DFR does not have a poor connection or wiring problem itself?


----------



## frustration101

Have you checked there is no pocket fluff in your iPhone’s lightning socket? Try picking it out with a cocktail stick or similar....


----------



## megabigeye

Agreed with the two posts above.
It's best to troubleshoot the problem to figure out where the failure point is.
I've had so much pocket lint in my Android phones that they wouldn't charge properly. The funny thing was that some cables worked better than others.

Also, be careful using isopropyl bought at the pharmacy, as some of them have additives that aren't good for electronics. I think you should use only 90% isopropyl or higher. I'd start with something like a toothpick to fish out the lint.


----------



## caretaker98

Thanks everyone. I will try cleaning the iphone lightning jack. 

I have tried the dragonfly on my computer without any issues. I will test and report back.


----------



## caretaker98

The problem is at the lightning connector's end. The dragonfly remains working when I dangle it around but the lightning jack immediately cuts. So I inspected the lightning jack and thought I could use my air compressor to clean it out (have one for my PCs). But my SO is working atm and she hates the sound of that. While waiting I carefully blew into the lightning jack and voila, the connection is not cutting out anymore. 

I'll give it a cautious cleaning using the blower at a distance so as to not damage any internal components but it seems to not cut out anymore when I move it around and is a substantial improvement over my previous experience. 

Thanks a lot. I would not have expected that to be the problem.


----------



## Kevin1314171

Is getting a DFR still worth it in 2019? I plan on using it with a lightning to usb adaptor( I have the one with just a female USB port) on my iPhone XR. I only use IEMs, and music is through Spotify and tidal. Appreciate any advice I can get, thank you.


----------



## frustration101

caretaker98 said:


> The problem is at the lightning connector's end. The dragonfly remains working when I dangle it around but the lightning jack immediately cuts. So I inspected the lightning jack and thought I could use my air compressor to clean it out (have one for my PCs). But my SO is working atm and she hates the sound of that. While waiting I carefully blew into the lightning jack and voila, the connection is not cutting out anymore.
> 
> I'll give it a cautious cleaning using the blower at a distance so as to not damage any internal components but it seems to not cut out anymore when I move it around and is a substantial improvement over my previous experience.
> 
> Thanks a lot. I would not have expected that to be the problem.


No problem. Glad it’s fixed your issue.


----------



## suzuki (Jun 20, 2019)

Lucas headphonebrz said:


> Someone knows how to use the dragonfly red with equalizer in MacBook ?
> I used to use EQMAC2 but I just can’t use this program since that program require output sound to works , and the DFR use the same output
> So , if I select one, I lost the other one .
> I saw some posts about the program AUlab and forest something , but it didn’t work
> ...


The Dragonfly shouldn't need an EQ or bassboost to get the best out of it. EQ should be flat or off. It will sound worse with EQ or bass boost.

The Dragon fly is not just a plug n play to get the best out of it. Yeah it'll work but you have to play with your settings, volume and bit rate. When I say volume I don't just mean the main volume on your laptop but the sound mixer that is in the laptop. Otherwise the DR will sound too hot or too loud with just a little movement of the main volume slide if not set up properly. If you're using ITunes I wrote a piece on setup just a page or 2 back. It would probably help you work out your setting if you have another music player other than ITunes?

DR Red is really good when it's set up properly. I thought it was a waste of money till I played with the settings on my laptop and ITunes.


----------



## miguelfcp

suzuki said:


> The Dragonfly shouldn't need an EQ or bassboost to get the best out of it. EQ should be flat or off. It will sound worse with EQ or bass boost.
> 
> The Dragon fly is not just a plug n play to get the best out of it. Yeah it'll work but you have to play with your settings, volume and bit rate. When I say volume I don't just mean the main volume on your laptop but the sound mixer that is in the laptop. Otherwise the DR will sound too hot or too loud with just a little movement of the main volume slide if not set up properly. If you're using ITunes I wrote a piece on setup just a page or 2 back. It would probably help you work out your setting if you have another music player other than ITunes?
> 
> DR Red is really good when it's set up properly. I thought it was a waste of money till I played with the settings on my laptop and ITunes.



Your post gave me curiosity.
What you mean by properly configured and how to do it?


----------



## suzuki

miguelfcp said:


> Your post gave me curiosity.
> What you mean by properly configured and how to do it?


Like I said above "I wrote a piece on setup just a page or 2 back. "


----------



## megabigeye

miguelfcp said:


> Your post gave me curiosity.
> What you mean by properly configured and how to do it?


I think essentially:
In iTunes:
iTunes menu >> Preferences (Command-, (comma)) >> Playback >> 1. uncheck "Crossfade Songs," 2. uncheck "Sound Enhancer," 3. uncheck "Sound Check"
Window menu >> Equalizer (Option-Command-E) >> turn off EQ by unchecking "On" button

In Audio MIDI Setup with DFR plugged in >> "AudioQuest DragonFly Red v1.0" >> under "Format," select highest available bitrate.


----------



## megabigeye

megabigeye said:


> I think essentially:
> In iTunes:
> iTunes menu >> Preferences (Command-, (comma)) >> Playback >> 1. uncheck "Crossfade Songs," 2. uncheck "Sound Enhancer," 3. uncheck "Sound Check"
> Window menu >> Equalizer (Option-Command-E) >> turn off EQ by unchecking "On" button
> ...


Almost forgot that iTunes volume should be set to max; use system volume to digitally adjust DFR's volume.


----------



## miguelfcp

Thanks for the replies. 

But I use the Foobar2000 and not Itunes. Any particular setup should I consider?


----------



## megabigeye

Sorry, I thought I saw that you were using a Mac.  Suzuki's guide was specifically for using iTunes; I have no experience with Foobar2000. Sorry.


----------



## Lucas headphonebrz

@suzuki  I don`t use iTunes , the music that I usually listen is all in youtube and not available in iTunes unfortunatelly.
I am asking for a way to use EQ with my DFR because my iEMS sound better with EQ, I remove the bass with a bass filter and for me it`s way better .. 

But my doubt is not just to set up MAC with DFR, is to make it with any DAC and EQ. I think it`s something that is possible, otherwise no one can use Equalizer + Dac combo in Macbook


----------



## Sotiris

Does anybody use DFR with jitterbug with laptop or mobile? Dp you think it changes the sound?


----------



## Windseeker

Sotiris said:


> Does anybody use DFR with jitterbug with laptop or mobile? Dp you think it changes the sound?



I do. If one's usb port (in particular the bus power) is noisy, the benefit of using Jitterbug is audible, IMHO. 

I have a hunch that AQ did test the combo extensively during development, so the synergy may be merely "working as intended".


----------



## Sotiris

Windseeker said:


> I do. If one's usb port (in particular the bus power) is noisy, the benefit of using Jitterbug is audible, IMHO.
> 
> I have a hunch that AQ did test the combo extensively during development, so the synergy may be merely "working as intended".




How you spot the noisy usb port? How anyone knows that his usb 3 port is noisy?


----------



## The Socialist Nerd

Wow, my Dragonfly Red plus USB-C dongle from Apple pushes my HIFIMAN's in a totally kick ass way. WoW... too bad not a Bluetooth dongle .


----------



## Windseeker (Jun 29, 2019)

Sotiris said:


> How you spot the noisy usb port? How anyone knows that his usb 3 port is noisy?



USB port noise can be measured, but the solutions (such as USB bus analyzers) can be expensive. Frankly speaking, buying a Jitterbug and trying it may well be a cheaper way to find out.   In general, while machines specifically tuned for hi-fi usage may have less noisy usb ports, ordinary laptop PCs can be quite noisy. 

Your mileage may vary, though.


----------



## nuxos

I have a MacbookPro 2017" with a Master&Dynamic MH40 and no decent sources.I will receive next week the DF Red and can't wait to try it!


----------



## Sp12er3

My Vaio laptop has an annoying static noise that comes up when the body (which is full anodizes aluminium) is touched. Can that be attenuated by the jitterbug?


----------



## joesuburb

I have the Dragon Red and love it's form factor.  Its great for my laptop and my iphone.  Nothing else comes close in that department as far as I'm concerned.

Serious question, if money isn't really the option can you actually hear a reasonably difference in improvement with the Mojo?  I hate it's form factor and don't want to deal with keeping another battery charged.  I'm mostly a loud speaker, home audio guy and don't have experience in the headphone market.  I've found a SERIOUS diminishing improvement when it comes to electronics in the home environment.  Once you get pretty good electronics (I have an Anthem MRK520), you really don't get much going from $2000 to $10000.

Now speakers on the other hand I've found serious value getting more expensive ones.  My headphones are Focal Stellias.  Am I crazy to drive TOTL headphones with this little $200 amp and missing out on a lot or is it really a minimal improvement.

Any opinions would be appreciated.


----------



## SLC1966

joesuburb said:


> I have the Dragon Red and love it's form factor.  Its great for my laptop and my iphone.  Nothing else comes close in that department as far as I'm concerned.
> 
> Serious question, if money isn't really the option can you actually hear a reasonably difference in improvement with the Mojo?  I hate it's form factor and don't want to deal with keeping another battery charged.  I'm mostly a loud speaker, home audio guy and don't have experience in the headphone market.  I've found a SERIOUS diminishing improvement when it comes to electronics in the home environment.  Once you get pretty good electronics (I have an Anthem MRK520), you really don't get much going from $2000 to $10000.
> 
> ...


Mojo is warmer sounding vs. Red.  There is a difference but not in quality but in preference. I loved the Mojo warmth but form factor and RFI were not to my liking since I wanted to stack mojo and phone for semi portability.


----------



## BabetakCZE

New Dragonfly is coming. Audioquest Dragonfly Cobalt.
"New, more advanced ESS ES9038Q2M DAC chip with a minimum-phase slow roll-off filter for more natural sound."
Price is 299 $.


----------



## Wheel Hoss

joesuburb said:


> I have the Dragon Red and love it's form factor.  Its great for my laptop and my iphone.  Nothing else comes close in that department as far as I'm concerned.
> 
> Serious question, if money isn't really the option can you actually hear a reasonably difference in improvement with the Mojo?  I hate it's form factor and don't want to deal with keeping another battery charged.  I'm mostly a loud speaker, home audio guy and don't have experience in the headphone market.  I've found a SERIOUS diminishing improvement when it comes to electronics in the home environment.  Once you get pretty good electronics (I have an Anthem MRK520), you really don't get much going from $2000 to $10000.
> 
> ...



Mojo is clearly better. A/Bed them extensively at Audio46. Mojo has more separation, layering, dynamics, etc. But DFR is still light years ahead of Apple dongle. 

Wondering how much DFC will close gap on the Mojo.


----------



## 211276

joesuburb said:


> I have the Dragon Red and love it's form factor.  Its great for my laptop and my iphone.  Nothing else comes close in that department as far as I'm concerned.
> 
> Serious question, if money isn't really the option can you actually hear a reasonably difference in improvement with the Mojo?  I hate it's form factor and don't want to deal with keeping another battery charged.  I'm mostly a loud speaker, home audio guy and don't have experience in the headphone market.  I've found a SERIOUS diminishing improvement when it comes to electronics in the home environment.  Once you get pretty good electronics (I have an Anthem MRK520), you really don't get much going from $2000 to $10000.
> 
> ...



I have a Mojo and a DFR. The Mojo is better and I use it in the house and garden. I use the DFR out and about. The slightj loss in SQ is out weighed by convenience and portabilty considerations. They both sound great.


----------



## megabigeye (Jul 8, 2019)

BabetakCZE said:


> New Dragonfly is coming. Audioquest Dragonfly Cobalt.
> "New, more advanced ESS ES9038Q2M DAC chip with a minimum-phase slow roll-off filter for more natural sound."
> Price is 299 $.


Nice find! I was wondering when they might be coming out with a new DragonFly. Where did you find this info and picture?

Derp dee der.  Answered my own question.


----------



## davescleveland

BabetakCZE said:


> New Dragonfly is coming. Audioquest Dragonfly Cobalt.
> "New, more advanced ESS ES9038Q2M DAC chip with a minimum-phase slow roll-off filter for more natural sound."
> Price is 299 $.


What????


----------



## rwpritchett

Some more Cobalt info here:
https://darko.audio/2019/07/a-short-film-about-the-audioquest-dragonfly-cobalt/

Stereophile is also doing a giveaway:
https://www.stereophile.com/content/audioquest-dragonfly-cobalt-portable-usb-dac-sweepstakes


----------



## billbishere

https://hifimediy.com/S2-DAC

I found this, it is based on the same chip as the Cobalt.  *ES9038q2m* 

Like the price of this one A LOT better.  That chip is only like 30 bucks, there is actually a lot of DIY stuff with it.


----------



## BabetakCZE

DAC Chip is not everything. Pretty sure that Cobalt will be the better sounding device.


----------



## megabigeye

While I agree that DAC chip is not everything, it'd be best to wait till people have actually heard the Cobalt to say whether or not it's better than one device or another.


----------



## bassct

DFB and DFR work very well. They shine because of their simplicity and plug and play interface. Can be used with PCs and mobile devices. But looking closely at the actual measurements, they are mediocre devices at best. Audio science review reveals all the details. Audioquest just simply says how awesome they are and specifies only a single metric: 2.1v. How about power, impedance? Independent review reveals: 26mw into 33 ohm, 11mw into 300 ohm and 1.2 ohm impedance, 88 db snr. Thats power is anemic. While i do like DFR, it is only suitable for IEM use. And why do the manufacturer not disclose all the details about DACs abilities? No one buys exotic supercars based on the fact that they just simply "drive", because so does every other car. But which one will hit 100mph quicker? 

For example, one headfier designed his own USB dongle DAC, based on the same 9038q2m. It is a bit bigger and needs a Y splitter to use some juice from the power bank ( if it is to be used with a phone ). But it has 320mw into 32 ohm load. More than 10 times more power than DFR. 108db snr, 92db crosstalk. Plus he included a Bluetooth DSP chip inside, with a parametric EQ ( controlled by a phone app ). And the guy is 100% transparent with what his device is capable of, because he made it for himself, tested it himself. And the cost is 1/6 of that of DFCobalt. 

It might still be a very nice DAC, simple and effective. I would love to try it as well. But i also wish these people were more upfront about the product that they sell.


----------



## megabigeye

bassct said:


> DFB and DFR work very well. They shine because of their simplicity and plug and play interface. Can be used with PCs and mobile devices. But looking closely at the actual measurements, they are mediocre devices at best. Audio science review reveals all the details. Audioquest just simply says how awesome they are and specifies only a single metric: 2.1v. How about power, impedance? Independent review reveals: 26mw into 33 ohm, 11mw into 300 ohm and 1.2 ohm impedance, 88 db snr. Thats power is anemic. While i do like DFR, it is only suitable for IEM use. And why do the manufacturer not disclose all the details about DACs abilities? No one buys exotic supercars based on the fact that they just simply "drive", because so does every other car. But which one will hit 100mph quicker?
> 
> For example, one headfier designed his own USB dongle DAC, based on the same 9038q2m. It is a bit bigger and needs a Y splitter to use some juice from the power bank ( if it is to be used with a phone ). But it has 320mw into 32 ohm load. More than 10 times more power than DFR. 108db snr, 92db crosstalk. Plus he included a Bluetooth DSP chip inside, with a parametric EQ ( controlled by a phone app ). And the guy is 100% transparent with what his device is capable of, because he made it for himself, tested it himself. And the cost is 1/6 of that of DFCobalt.
> 
> It might still be a very nice DAC, simple and effective. I would love to try it as well. But i also wish these people were more upfront about the product that they sell.


Yeah.  I remember seeing the Audio Science measurements and for a moment second guessing the DFR...  But then I thought, _I just don't care._  I don't care if it measures well or not, I don't care if it's "objectively" good, I don't care if it doesn't sound good to Susan from accounting or Joe Sixpack.  _It sounds good to me and I like it._
And I disagree that it's only good for IEM use.  Sure, my IEMs sound better than my HD 650 out of it, but it'd do in a pinch— and that's not talking about other full-sized headphones that having lower impedance and are more sensitive than the HD 650.  Also, it can be used as a DAC feeding another amp, which gives it a whole 'nother level of versatility.

Also, don't confuse how much something costs to make and the cost its of materials.  I don't know which Head-Fier you're talking about, but my guess is that they're valuing their time at $0.00/hour because they're doing it as a hobby, and they're probably not telling you how much their electrical engineering degree cost, nor how many hours they spent researching and designing their DAC, nor the cost of the design software, etc., etc. I'll also assume that they have minimal overhead, no employees to pay, no need for marketing, and don't need to turn a profit in order to research and design more products or to simply keep the lights on.  This is all stuff that costs a company money— generally a lot of money.  I'm not second guessing that this person's little DAC doesn't sound amazing for the money that they spent— nor even that a DAC/amp as good or better than the DFR couldn't be done for less money— but it's really not realistic to think that a) any company can do this for the same price as a hobbyist, nor b) that designing a DAC is an option for much more than, what, .01% of the population.


----------



## Fasterball

megabigeye said:


> Yeah.  I remember seeing the Audio Science measurements and for a moment second guessing the DFR...  But then I thought, _I just don't care._  I don't care if it measures well or not, I don't care if it's "objectively" good, I don't care if it doesn't sound good to Susan from accounting or Joe Sixpack.  _It sounds good to me and I like it._
> And I disagree that it's only good for IEM use.  Sure, my IEMs sound better than my HD 650 out of it, but it'd do in a pinch— and that's not talking about other full-sized headphones that having lower impedance and are more sensitive than the HD 650.  Also, it can be used as a DAC feeding another amp, which gives it a whole 'nother level of versatility.
> 
> Also, don't confuse how much something costs to make and the cost its of materials.  I don't know which Head-Fier you're talking about, but my guess is that they're valuing their time at $0.00/hour because they're doing it as a hobby, and they're probably not telling you how much their electrical engineering degree cost, nor how many hours they spent researching and designing their DAC, nor the cost of the design software, etc., etc. I'll also assume that they have minimal overhead, no employees to pay, no need for marketing, and don't need to turn a profit in order to research and design more products or to simply keep the lights on.  This is all stuff that costs a company money— generally a lot of money.  I'm not second guessing that this person's little DAC doesn't sound amazing for the money that they spent— nor even that a DAC/amp as good or better than the DFR couldn't be done for less money— but it's really not realistic to think that a) any company can do this for the same price as a hobbyist, nor b) that designing a DAC is an option for much more than, what, .01% of the population.


Well said.


----------



## megabigeye

Fasterball said:


> Well said.


Thank you.


----------



## PeteMtl

bassct said:


> DFB and DFR work very well. They shine because of their simplicity and plug and play interface. Can be used with PCs and mobile devices. But looking closely at the actual measurements, they are mediocre devices at best. Audio science review reveals all the details. Audioquest just simply says how awesome they are and specifies only a single metric: 2.1v. How about power, impedance? Independent review reveals: 26mw into 33 ohm, 11mw into 300 ohm and 1.2 ohm impedance, 88 db snr. Thats power is anemic. While i do like DFR, it is only suitable for IEM use. And why do the manufacturer not disclose all the details about DACs abilities? No one buys exotic supercars based on the fact that they just simply "drive", because so does every other car. But which one will hit 100mph quicker?
> 
> For example, one headfier designed his own USB dongle DAC, based on the same 9038q2m. It is a bit bigger and needs a Y splitter to use some juice from the power bank ( if it is to be used with a phone ). But it has 320mw into 32 ohm load. More than 10 times more power than DFR. 108db snr, 92db crosstalk. Plus he included a Bluetooth DSP chip inside, with a parametric EQ ( controlled by a phone app ). And the guy is 100% transparent with what his device is capable of, because he made it for himself, tested it himself. And the cost is 1/6 of that of DFCobalt.
> 
> It might still be a very nice DAC, simple and effective. I would love to try it as well. But i also wish these people were more upfront about the product that they sell.



I disagree with you on a few elements. To me the DFR sounds great, regardless of measurements. With my iPhone or IPad Pro it cannot be beaten in portable usage.
Moreover, 11 mw under 300 ohms is plenty of power for my HD650/6XX headphones (as long as you don’t listen to rock concert levels). High impedance headphones such as HD650 or HD58X  do not need a lot of mw to perform well. They need 2v of voltage, but because of their high sensibility, only a few mw is enough to reach close to 108db, enough for me. Your assumption that the DFR only suits IEMs is totally wrong in my opinion. the DFR is a good product, that makes miracles with the technological constraints (usb1, iOS compatibility powered only with the USB power of an iPhone or iPad. Product bashing has no purpose here.


----------



## Ultrainferno

We got to play with it already as well 

https://www.headfonia.com/audioquest-cobalt-review/


----------



## Swoti

I have some issues with my red recently, maybe somebody can help. When I plug it in my cirrus7 pc usb, I have it stopping the music every minute for a second or two. Using it with a mobile is OK.


----------



## bassct

Try a different USB port. Aside from that see if the driver is installed. Or update the chipset driver on the pc.Try with another computer to see if its working, to pinpoint what makes it not work.


----------



## davescleveland

Got my cobalt today from audio advice- initially—
Super clear and relaxed. I like a lot but the cost is kinda bonkers. I find the red to be a bit cold and thud fixes it. Gotta say I love the xtrempro x1 as much or more but I’m diggin it with ie800 right now and kmfdm


----------



## Wheel Hoss

Ultrainferno said:


> We got to play with it already as well
> 
> https://www.headfonia.com/audioquest-cobalt-review/



Thanks for that. 

Does it compete with the Mojo? DFR is good but imo Mojo clearly better.


----------



## davescleveland

The cobalt does not get as loud as the red.  I have a feeling people are going to judge this as a side grade. Not an upgrade. Clear and relaxed. Laid back.


----------



## megabigeye

davescleveland said:


> The cobalt does not get as loud as the red.  I have a feeling people are going to judge this as a side grade. Not an upgrade. Clear and relaxed. Laid back.


Weird.  Isn't the amp chip the same between the two?  And they're both capable of 2.1V.  I wonder if it's a software thing, the power filtering, or just that it's a different signature?  That'd be disappointing if it's really not an upgrade.


----------



## bassct

Dacs are different between all 3 DFs. Amp is the same in the DFR and DFC. I would expect similar if not greater volume. Specs in the link.
https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/bits-and-bytes/new-audioquest-dragonfly-cobalt-r817/


----------



## davescleveland

It was my phone. Settings for changed. Messed up my whole perception. So now I gotta say I am loving it. More controlled treble, better soundstage than red, and plenty of warm syrupy bass. Again warmer than red but super clear even at high volumes. I think I love this cobalt.  It’s funny cause it’s trying for a more mojo type sound. Doing a good job!  Recommended!


----------



## megabigeye (Jul 12, 2019)

Thanks for the update.  It does sound somewhat intriguing from a sound perspective.

...Although...
...I'm trying to hold off here... and maybe this is my _I need more coffee and so I can't stop from complaining right now_, but the sound is really the last thing I ever thought the DFR needed improved.  I am glad that they improved the battery draw, but it seems like there are other problems that they should have also looked at solving with a new device.
The ergonomics stink.  Yeah, it's tiny and it's pocketable and it's way more portable than almost any other portable DAC, but having the headphone jack opposite the USB plug kinda takes away its pocket-ability.  You still either have to hold it and your phone in your hand, or else risk damaging the headphone socket by stuffing it in your pocket, which is what happened to mine.  As far as I know, the FiiO Q5 and Q5S are the only ones that have solved this issue.
And a USB-A plug?  Really?  Why not have a USB-C _jack_ (not a plug!) instead of necessitating the goofy USB-A-to-USB-C/micro-USB/Lightning adapters?  A USB-C-to USB-C (or micro or Lightning) cable would be a lot more compact and the jack could potentially be put right next to the 3.5mm jack, too.

Also, something I didn't realize until somewhat recently is that USB-C has a USB-audio protocol in which an _analog_ signal is transmitted; I believe this is the way most dongles work, not with a DAC chip in the dongle, and how you can take voice calls on a dongle without an ADC chip.  All this being said, if AQ could have somehow integrated this alongside the DAC— heck, even with a physical switch to toggle between modes— so that you can take calls without having to unplug, take out your IEMs, etc. would have (in my opinion) put this completely out of reach of every other portable DAC.

Finally, the light.  Yeah, it's pretty.  Yeah, it's useful to know that you're getting the bit perfect.  95% of the time, though, does it really serve any purpose?  Isn't it just draining the battery, even if it's just a little bit?  And maybe it's just me, but if I'm listening in bed, I find the light to be annoyingly bright.  I've always wished there was a way to turn it off, either with a switch or button or some crappy app that just turns off the light and potentially saves my phone's battery.

Okay.  I've got that out of my system.  I love the DFR, even for its foibles, but it seems like they could've had a grand slam here and won the game, instead they settled for a base hit and one RBI.


----------



## joesuburb (Jul 12, 2019)

megabigeye said:


> Why not have a USB-C _jack_ (not a plug!) instead of necessitating the goofy USB-A-to-USB-C/micro-USB/Lightning adapters?  A USB-C-to USB-C (or micro or Lightning) cable would be a lot more compact and the jack could potentially be put right next to the 3.5mm jack, too..



Likely because the iPhone USB adapter is USB-A and the combo one is too big.  Also, USB-C falls out easily.  Not a good option for in a pocket.


----------



## megabigeye

joesuburb said:


> Likely because the iPhone USB adapter is USB-A and the combo one is too big.  Also, USB-C falls out easily.  Not a good option for in a pocket.


Point taken about the iPhone.  I don't know much about them.  Would a Lightning-to-USB-C adapter not work?  Other DACs use Lightning-micro-USB adapters, so I figure USB-C would also work.

And I disagree about USB-C being a point of failure.  On my adapters, it's the USB-A end that's failed before the USB-C end.


----------



## joesuburb

megabigeye said:


> Point taken about the iPhone.  I don't know much about them.  Would a Lightning-to-USB-C adapter not work?  Other DACs use Lightning-micro-USB adapters, so I figure USB-C would also work.
> 
> And I disagree about USB-C being a point of failure.  On my adapters, it's the USB-A end that's failed before the USB-C end.



The iPhone adapter with USB-C also has USB-A.  So it's big.

I didn't mean to say USB-A is less susceptible to damage.  What I meant to say is that it slips out very easy and will come lose in your pocket.


----------



## megabigeye (Jul 12, 2019)

joesuburb said:


> The iPhone adapter with USB-C also has USB-A.  So it's big.
> 
> I didn't mean to say USB-A is less susceptible to damage.  What I meant to say is that it slips out very easy and will come lose in your pocket.




This is the Lightning adapter that comes with the FiiO Q5s.  Why wouldn't USB-C work just as well?  I don't know if the Q5 has software that's doing a special handshake with iOS.

And, yes, that's what I mean.  My USB-C plugs have all stayed snug, while the USB-A end has become loose.  Not to say that mine wasn't a special case, more that if A and C are equally prone to failure, why not use the newer, more compact standard?


----------



## auronthas

Hi, I am new to this thread.  Recently I bought DFR , I have tried them with my MacBook Pro, S10+, Hiby R6, it works well with these devices.

But there's no sound when I connect my Sony WM1A >DFR> HD 650, although the WM1A screen shown USB Audio .  

I have searched this thread with WM1A keyword, but can't find any clue.  Kindly advise what went wrong.


----------



## bassct

There is absolutely no need to try and listen to DFR through one of the highly regarded DAPs. If you had a Shanling M0 or M1 or Fiio M5, then maybe ... I dont think DFR will provide an improvement in sound over WM1A ( my opinion ). But it is a great device for smartphone and other electronics capable of supplying USB digital audio. I tried it with Hiby R3, it worked , but i didnt test to see which sounds better.


----------



## auronthas (Jul 17, 2019)

bassct said:


> There is absolutely no need to try and listen to DFR through one of the highly regarded DAPs. If you had a Shanling M0 or M1 or Fiio M5, then maybe ... I dont think DFR will provide an improvement in sound over WM1A ( my opinion ). But it is a great device for smartphone and other electronics capable of supplying USB digital audio. I tried it with Hiby R3, it worked , but i didnt test to see which sounds better.


Thanks for your reply and noted. That's why AQ stated DFR is mainly for computer audio system , now I understand why...

I was thinking to use DFR as headphone amp (portable) to drive my HD 650.


----------



## Hengweilun

Hello. I am using ath-r70x with magni 3. Desktop usage only.

Now i want to get DAC for tidal mqa streaming.

Question is do i need dragonfly red or dragonfly black is enough since i already have an external amp. 

Appreciate your input in advance.

Cheers.


----------



## clerkpalmer

Hengweilun said:


> Hello. I am using ath-r70x with magni 3. Desktop usage only.
> 
> Now i want to get DAC for tidal mqa streaming.
> 
> ...



You can use you df red as a dac only or you could buy an lgv30.


----------



## Hengweilun

clerkpalmer said:


> You can use you df red as a dac only or you could buy an lgv30.


Thx for the info.

Df black with magni 3
Vs
Df red with magni 3

Will there be any different in performance since i am using the same external amp? While both black and red can handle the mqa part.

Just want to make sure if paying more for the df red is justified for my case.

Thanks in advance.
Cheers.


----------



## clerkpalmer

Hengweilun said:


> Thx for the info.
> 
> Df black with magni 3
> Vs
> ...


Yes the dac chip is different. Whether you could hear the difference I don’t know. Plus the red will be a big improvement over the black if you decide to go portable and leave the desktop behind. I would get the red.


----------



## Haden2866

clerkpalmer said:


> Yes the dac chip is different. Whether you could hear the difference I don’t know. Plus the red will be a big improvement over the black if you decide to go portable and leave the desktop behind. I would get the red.


...or the new Cobalt.


----------



## shimigg

How do you guys carry the DF (doesn't matter red or black) I find it pretty annoying to take it in the pocket


----------



## joesuburb

shimigg said:


> How do you guys carry the DF (doesn't matter red or black) I find it pretty annoying to take it in the pocket


 I leave it hanging out of my pocket and the pigtail stays connected fine.


----------



## CactusPete23

shimigg said:


> How do you guys carry the DF (doesn't matter red or black) I find it pretty annoying to take it in the pocket


Use 90 Degree/right angled USB-c OTG cable from phone to the DF. Then can velcro the DF to back of phone or it's case.


----------



## megabigeye

shimigg said:


> How do you guys carry the DF (doesn't matter red or black) I find it pretty annoying to take it in the pocket


Mostly I just hold it and my phone in my hand, though, like joesuburb said, it'll usually stay connected if you let it dangle out of your pocket.  I got sick of people looking at the glowing dragonfly, so I don't do that often.

Hey @CactusPete23, do you have a link to that cable?  Is it short?  I've never found a cable that I really like.


----------



## CactusPete23

megabigeye said:


> Mostly I just hold it and my phone in my hand, though, like joesuburb said, it'll usually stay connected if you let it dangle out of your pocket.  I got sick of people looking at the glowing dragonfly, so I don't do that often.
> 
> Hey @CactusPete23, do you have a link to that cable?  Is it short?  I've never found a cable that I really like.



Similar to this one >>>  https://www.amazon.com/KiWiBiRD-Degree-Adapter-MacBook-Devices/dp/B07BP3L926    Not super short, but DF won't go off the edge of phone when stretched out.  It places the DF's headphone jack pointing up !    Cheaper ones if you search amazon.  90 Degree (OR Right Angle)  and USB C OTG should get you there.


----------



## megabigeye

CactusPete23 said:


> Similar to this one >>>  https://www.amazon.com/KiWiBiRD-Degree-Adapter-MacBook-Devices/dp/B07BP3L926    Not super short, but DF won't go off the edge of phone when stretched out.  It places the DF's headphone jack pointing up !    Cheaper ones if you search amazon.  90 Degree (OR Right Angle)  and USB C OTG should get you there.


Awesome! That looks perfect! Thanks!


----------



## shimigg

I like the DFR a lot, together with fiio FH7 it's a dream, but with Android (even with fw 1.07) I constantly fear from blasting my ears , even if media volume is set correctly it's enough to forget that notification volume is high to blast my ears by mistake , is there any solution to that ? How is the DFR with iPhone ?


----------



## megabigeye

shimigg said:


> I like the DFR a lot, together with fiio FH7 it's a dream, but with Android (even with fw 1.07) I constantly fear from blasting my ears , even if media volume is set correctly it's enough to forget that notification volume is high to blast my ears by mistake , is there any solution to that ? How is the DFR with iPhone ?


Try USB Audio Player Pro.  It costs $8, I think, but it's money well spent.  It has extensive volume controls.  Unfortunately it doesn't work with Spotify, but it works with local files, Tidal, Google Play Music, and maybe some others I'm not thinking of.


----------



## shimigg

Already tried UAPP , it's good but how do you set the volume to not blast into your ears?

Anyone with iOS experience with the DFR ?


----------



## dsiebenh

@shimigg   running OS X Mohave. The volume must be controlled downstream from the DFR. In that case it means I must use the volume buttons on the front of the speakers to control the volume.


----------



## shimigg

So no solution to blasting ears


----------



## megabigeye

shimigg said:


> Already tried UAPP , it's good but how do you set the volume to not blast into your ears?
> 
> Anyone with iOS experience with the DFR ?


Settings >> Volume >> Volume steps.  This allows you to get more control.  It goes up to 100 steps, but I have mine set at 50 and don't need anything more.

If you still need more control:
Settings >> USB audio >> Bit perfect mode >> Off
Then:
UAPP home screen >> button that looks like a graphic EQ >> Hardware Vol.  This allows you to set a max volume.  I haven't used it in a long time, but I think the way I used to do it was to set the main volume to the middle and then adjust the "hardware volume" slider so that it's just louder than my normal listening level.  No harm in experimenting to find what works for you.

Hope this helps.


----------



## megabigeye

shimigg said:


> I like the DFR a lot, together with fiio FH7 it's a dream, but with Android (even with fw 1.07) I constantly fear from blasting my ears , even if media volume is set correctly it's enough to forget that notification volume is high to blast my ears by mistake , is there any solution to that ? How is the DFR with iPhone ?


Randomly realized last night that I forgot to answer part of your question, randomly remembered again this morning (my brain is weird)...  Since it's a system sound, the only way to turn down notifications volume is through the phone's volume settings.  Unfortunately, that means that when you turn down notifications sounds through the DFR, it also affects the sound when you unplug it as well.  For me that's better than blasting my eardrums every time I get a text.

One of my friends is a rapid fire texter and while I was at the grocery store she must've sent me half a dozen texts before I could turn the volume down or get my IEMs out.  I must've looked like Kramer in the pasta aisle.


----------



## CactusPete23

megabigeye said:


> Randomly realized last night that I forgot to answer part of your question, randomly remembered again this morning (my brain is weird)...  Since it's a system sound, the only way to turn down notifications volume is through the phone's volume settings.  Unfortunately, that means that when you turn down notifications sounds through the DFR, it also affects the sound when you unplug it as well.  For me that's better than blasting my eardrums every time I get a text.
> 
> One of my friends is a rapid fire texter and while I was at the grocery store she must've sent me half a dozen texts before I could turn the volume down or get my IEMs out.  I must've looked like



With the UAPP App you don't get any system sounds or notifications from your phone.  Same when using Foobar2000 on your computer...  Only your music will go to the DF (or any DAP).


----------



## megabigeye

CactusPete23 said:


> With the UAPP App you don't get any system sounds or notifications from your phone.  Same when using Foobar2000 on your computer...  Only your music will go to the DF (or any DAP).


Right. Meant to mention that.


----------



## shimigg

Does setting the Max volume in UAPP low enough that if you forget notifications volume high enough it won't blast your ears affects sound dynamics?


----------



## shimigg

Also, another question, I have the AK SR15 dap and use it mostly for home , I don't like to use a lot when I'm on the go, and I'm ok with the fact that the DFR is a bit brighter than the SR15 I'm looking for a good phone to pair the DFR when I'm on the go, so what is your setup for the dragons ?


----------



## megabigeye

shimigg said:


> Does setting the Max volume in UAPP low enough that if you forget notifications volume high enough it won't blast your ears affects sound dynamics?


You shouldn't get any notifications, calls, or system sounds through UAPP.


----------



## CEH1

shimigg said:


> How do you guys carry the DF (doesn't matter red or black) I find it pretty annoying to take it in the pocket


I just leave it hanging out of my pocket.


----------



## blaizefm (Jul 25, 2019)

Hi

Any iOS users having a problem with the Dragonfly Cobolt disconnecting when I pause the music? This is on an iPhone (iOS12) connecting via the lightning/USB adaptor.

I have to reconnect the lightning/USB adaptor each time to get it to reconnect.

It's a weird problem, and totally impractical.

edit: Never mind. After more investigation I think the USB is disconnecting when the iPhone is locked. Yet this is also intermittent. I'm not sure whether it is the Dragonfly or the iPhone behaviour in this state. 

Nonetheless, I'm returning the Cobalt. It's putting some sibilance in my IE800s and doesn't quite improve my B&W P9s as much as hoped, especially considering the price of the Dragonfly.


----------



## PhenixS1970

CEH1 said:


> I just leave it hanging out of my pocket.



I bought a set of  "Hook and Loop Reusable Fastening Bylon Cable Straps' on amazon.  I use Cobalt mainly with my ipod touch so I strap the cck+C at the rear of the ipod.  Helps to keep it in place.


----------



## Digeeedad

I have a Dragonfly Red connected to an iPhone 8plus, driving new Beyerdynamic dt770 pro 80 ohm headphones. Just got the headphones tonight. Everything sounds awesome but I'm not getting satisfactory volume levels unless I have the 8plus volume turned up to 2/3 or higher. As an experiment, I disconnected the Dragonfly Red and used the Apple dongle to hook the headphones to the phone. What I encountered was that the volume using the Apple dongle was essentially the same, perhaps a small bit less, than when I use the Dragonfly Red. Does anybody know if this is a normal or expected situation? It's almost as if the Dragonfly Red isn't amplifying much. Any ideas? Thanks in advance....


----------



## ninetylol

Hardware volume is probably at stock settings. Use a app like UAPP to change hardware volume of the DFR.


----------



## Digeeedad

ninetylol said:


> Hardware volume is probably at stock settings. Use a app like UAPP to change hardware volume of the DFR.


Thanks for the reply!


----------



## jamescodway

Digeeedad said:


> I have a Dragonfly Red connected to an iPhone 8plus, driving new Beyerdynamic dt770 pro 80 ohm headphones. Just got the headphones tonight. Everything sounds awesome but I'm not getting satisfactory volume levels unless I have the 8plus volume turned up to 2/3 or higher. As an experiment, I disconnected the Dragonfly Red and used the Apple dongle to hook the headphones to the phone. What I encountered was that the volume using the Apple dongle was essentially the same, perhaps a small bit less, than when I use the Dragonfly Red. Does anybody know if this is a normal or expected situation? It's almost as if the Dragonfly Red isn't amplifying much. Any ideas? Thanks in advance....



Perceived volume may well be similar but quality of sound may not.


----------



## Digeeedad

jamescodway said:


> Perceived volume may well be similar but quality of sound may not.


 Thanks for the reply! I ended up getting a FiiO A5 and am having a great time with this iPhone to Drangonfly Red to A5. Very satisfied!


----------



## miguelfcp

Hi guys.

Am I the only person who has the DF Black loosing all its paint?? I have it by two years and is loosing all the black color


----------



## Disadadi

Digeeedad said:


> Thanks for the reply! I ended up getting a FiiO A5 and am having a great time with this iPhone to Drangonfly Red to A5. Very satisfied!


I have no clue on how it works with iOS, but at least on the Android you need to use a 3rd party app to take control of the audio device. That's the only way to get bit perfect audio signal for the DAC, otherwise the operating system will use its audio drivers to interfere with the signal. It will happen with Android and Windows at the very least, but as I've said I don't know how it works with iOS. I think it's highly likely that it's the exact same case with that OS. If I want bit perfect audio on windows, I use Tidal and simply check the "Use exclusive mode" for the DFR. When I select different songs with different bit rates, the DFR light changes accordingly. If I don't tick that option the light will stay at the matching color to whatever sample rate I've selected from Windows audio settings.
So the best way to detect whether the DAC is doing all the sound processing is to see whether the light goes green for 44,1kHz and red for 96kHz and slightly darker red MQA for example.

On the Android, if I use Spotify for example, the light will stay blue, at 48kHz. Same happens with regular audio players too, which route the audio via Android sound processing procedures, that scales the audio always to 48kHz. So if you use Spotify for example, don't expect to be able to make it louder. If you use a proper software with audio controller to directly route the digital signal to the external DAC, then you should get a lot more volume out of the device as well. If I use Onkyo HF player on my Android and plug earphones to the DFR, I will hear the song even after setting volume to 0 on the phone, because the amplification is simply too much.


----------



## Yh173088

megabigeye said:


> Settings >> Volume >> Volume steps.  This allows you to get more control.  It goes up to 100 steps, but I have mine set at 50 and don't need anything more.
> 
> If you still need more control:
> Settings >> USB audio >> Bit perfect mode >> Off
> ...


Thanks ! I was also having issues with the volume steps jumping up so much .


----------



## shimigg

For some reason, connecting dfr with uapp , can't set HW volume , no matter what I set the volume to, when I exit the app Spotify playes the same volume


----------



## megabigeye

shimigg said:


> For some reason, connecting dfr with uapp , can't set HW volume , no matter what I set the volume to, when I exit the app Spotify playes the same volume


It's been a while since I've used UAPP or my DFR (since my DFR broke in April/May), but if I recall, you have to unplug the DFR from the phone and then replug it. When you replug, don't let UAPP connect to DFR.


----------



## shimigg

megabigeye said:


> It's been a while since I've used UAPP or my DFR (since my DFR broke in April/May), but if I recall, you have to unplug the DFR from the phone and then replug it. When you replug, don't let UAPP connect to DFR.



Yea but the volume of DFR stays the same, phone media volume is very low and I can still get a pretty good volume from Spotify using CA Solaris, and when a notification arrives it blasts like boom , I just want to set the DFR HW volume to the middle and adjust phone volume to whatever I want to


----------



## megabigeye

Sorry, I'm a little confused.  Do you mean that 1) you can't adjust the volume at all when you're using Spotify and the DFR?  2) you can't simply can't adjust the hardware volume the same way that you can in UAPP?  or 3) the volume is much lower when using Spotify than when using UAPP?

1) If you can't adjust the volume at all in Spotify: then I'm sorry, I don't have an answer. 
2) If you can't adjust the hardware volume in Spotify the same way as UAPP: yes, this is a shortcoming of Android.  There is no native external hardware volume support in Android.
3) If the volume is lower in Spotify than UAPP: this sounds like you might have an older version of the DFR's firmware.  Download AudioQuest's firmware updater app from their website and follow the instructions to update the firmware for the DFR.

Anyway, like I said, it's been a while since I've used a DFR or UAPP, so I may be misremembering or maybe something has changed.  Maybe somebody else can chime in with more input.


----------



## Scarpad

I just placed an order for the black. My usage will be on both a pc laptop, MacBook 12 inch, and iPhone XS Max. For software I’ll be using J river for my music library on the PC , and for streaming, Amazon HD unlimited. Now I know no exclusive but I should probably set both laptops driver to 24 bit/96 since that’s the limit of the device. In j River I can set exclusivity. 

for my iPhone I bought the camera adapter. Does all this sound about right. It’s my first portable Dac/amp


----------



## PeteMtl (Nov 1, 2019)

Scarpad said:


> I just placed an order for the black. My usage will be on both a pc laptop, MacBook 12 inch, and iPhone XS Max. For software I’ll be using J river for my music library on the PC , and for streaming, Amazon HD unlimited. Now I know no exclusive but I should probably set both laptops driver to 24 bit/96 since that’s the limit of the device. In j River I can set exclusivity.
> 
> for my iPhone I bought the camera adapter. Does all this sound about right. It’s my first portable Dac/amp



I cannot comment for your PC, but for the MacBook the only thing you have to do is to plug the Dragonfly into the USB port. That’s all. No need to touch to any bit or sampling controls, it will drive the Dragonfly using the native bit/sample of each of your music files, be on the drive or streaming, and the Dragonfly will automatically downsample to 24/96 if your file is natively over this setting.
For the iPhone, you got it right: Lightning camera connector to USB A and Dragonfly plugged into the connector. No need to do anything else. I use my iPhone with Tidal and when a file in hifi or MQA (24/192) then the Dragonfly automatically drives the streaming to its own maximum setting (for MQA I see a Purple light, 24 bit/96 kHz on Dragonfly).

For your PC, well, I’d always more complicated, so I hope you best...


----------



## Scarpad

I picked up a 2019 Fire HD17 the device with amazon music says it’s capable of 24 bit /48. I’m using a Black with an adapter but I’m not getting any more than 16 bit 44 I’m assuming it’s my adapter, is anyone successfully using the 7 and getting 24bit thru the dragonfly?


----------



## Dan279

I have an iPhone 11 Pro and 1More Quad driver earphones. I’m considering getting a dragonfly (I have the budget for a cobalt if that’s what ends up being the best option). I don’t stream my music but instead buy them from the iTunes Store and download them to my phone (I don’t buy enough music regularly to warrant a streaming service plan). With that being the case and my music is capped at the size iTunes allows, would a dragonfly make any difference? And if so, which one would allow for the best quality sound from my earphones? I don’t want to get the DFC if it would be pointless. 
Thanks in advance


----------



## davescleveland

If you have the money, go cobalt. The black to me is mellow, the red kinda hot in the treble, and the cobalt sounds like a good mix. Now any of these are great and so is the fiio l1 fo that matter and that is $40. But I listen to my cobalt instead of red and black anymore. Just a tad batter than the other two


----------



## Dan279

davescleveland said:


> If you have the money, go cobalt. The black to me is mellow, the red kinda hot in the treble, and the cobalt sounds like a good mix. Now any of these are great and so is the fiio l1 fo that matter and that is $40. But I listen to my cobalt instead of red and black anymore. Just a tad batter than the other two



thanks for the advice. Do you think it’ll make much of a difference with my iPhone and my quad driver headphones? Given that I don’t stream - will it still make a noticeable difference?


----------



## davescleveland

Yep I have an iPhone XS Max 512 gen I have 300 gen of music on it. It’s a nice setup


----------



## Dan279

I’ll have to give it a go - thanks again


----------



## frustration101

Not sure it will make much difference unless you have Hi-res music files. I have a dragonfly black but do not notice any real improvement to the Apple adapter. Apple adapter is limited to 48kHz (or 44.1 can’t remember exactly) as are iTunes music files. Apple’s adapter has an extremely capable DAC in it. However if you use Hi-res files it will effectively downscale them. DF will play them correctly. Without Hi-res potentially a waste of money. That being said I have only used the DF black. I no longer bother with the clunky DF + iPhone combo.


----------



## Dan279

frustration101 said:


> Not sure it will make much difference unless you have Hi-res music files. I have a dragonfly black but do not notice any real improvement to the Apple adapter. Apple adapter is limited to 48kHz (or 44.1 can’t remember exactly) as are iTunes music files. Apple’s adapter has an extremely capable DAC in it. However if you use Hi-res files it will effectively downscale them. DF will play them correctly. Without Hi-res potentially a waste of money. That being said I have only used the DF black. I no longer bother with the clunky DF + iPhone combo.


So DF’s will not upscale music to Hi res quality? If that’s the case I’m probably getting as good a quality as is possible using the iPhone lightning adapter already.


----------



## frustration101

Dan279 said:


> So DF’s will not upscale music to Hi res quality? If that’s the case I’m probably getting as good a quality as is possible using the iPhone lightning adapter already.


I could be wrong but I think that is the case. Others in here will know better than me!


----------



## Dan279

Just to check, will any of the dragonfly’s make music downloaded from the iTunes Store and played through an iPhone sound better? Be it black, red or cobalt.


----------



## davescleveland

Yep that’s what I do but a pro tip get the iAudioGate app


----------



## Dan279

davescleveland said:


> Yep that’s what I do but a pro tip get the iAudioGate app


Does audiogate upscale the music or is that the dragonfly that does that?


----------



## davescleveland

IAudioGate does but it just opens up the dynamics


----------



## Dan279

davescleveland said:


> Yep that’s what I do but a pro tip get the iAudioGate app


Sorry for the continuous questions - are you saying to just get audiogate? Or are you saying to use a dragonfly and audiogate? If so, which dragonfly do you recommend? I am looking at DFB as I only intend to use it with my iem but should I be looking at red or cobalt too?


----------



## davescleveland

No get iAudioGate and the cobalt.


----------



## Dan279

davescleveland said:


> Yep that’s what I do but a pro tip get the iAudioGate app


Why would you recommend the cobalt over the black or red?


----------



## davescleveland

It sounds better.  They see all fine but getting picky- cobalt sounds the best


----------



## Dan279

davescleveland said:


> It sounds better.  They see all fine but getting picky- cobalt sounds the best



is it worth the price though? I can get the DFB for £68, the DFR for £148 and the DFC for £268

the price jumps seem huge - will I really hear a £200 difference between the DFB and the DFC?


----------



## psikey (Dec 11, 2019)

Dan279 said:


> is it worth the price though? I can get the DFB for £68, the DFR for £148 and the DFC for £268
> 
> the price jumps seem huge - will I really hear a £200 difference between the DFB and the DFC?



I had the DFR which I got new for ~£138 last year and now have a 2nd hand DFC I got for £150 (£269 new).

Without doubt the DFC is better and if your using sensitive IEM's no background hiss (I had hiss with my SE846's & DFR).

Its same as always. If you never hear the DFC you will be more than happy with the DFR. If cost not an issue go for the DFC. I didn't want to buy at full price even though I had no problem affording it.

I had the very first Dragonfly Black too but didn't think that much better than what I had out of my phone at the time so returned that.


----------



## a-LeXx (Dec 17, 2019)

Dan279 said:


> Just to check, will any of the dragonfly’s make music downloaded from the iTunes Store and played through an iPhone sound better? Be it black, red or cobalt.



That depends on your headphones. Even though an apple adapter has a good DAC, it‘s very limited in output power, especially a european version, that is caped to just 0.5V max output. The US/Asian version can output around 1V. The volume cap is in the phone, not in the adapter, so it doesn‘t help to use a us adapter on a european iphone.

Dragonfly black can output 1V as well, no volume caps here. So, if you have a european phone, it might be an upgrade for you, depending on your headphones. DFR/DFC  can output around1.5V into headphones undistorted, it‘s still plenty to drive even a HD600/HD650.

The DAC quality between the apple adapter and DFB is comparable, they are just a little different, so it‘s up to your taste, you cannot say, one is better than another.
DFR is a bit better, but it hisses with very sensitive IEMs like SE846.
DFC is again a bit different flavour from DFR and it doesn‘t hiss.

Hope this helps a bit in your decision making....


----------



## miguelfcp

Any idea how can I beauty this again??


----------



## psikey

miguelfcp said:


> Any idea how can I beauty this again??



Get some vinyl and wrap it? Various textures/styles.


----------



## max232

miguelfcp said:


> Any idea how can I beauty this again??


Patina.


----------



## DOUGHN

is it possible to use spotify with DF red on our cellfon? thanks


----------



## JM1979

DOUGHN said:


> is it possible to use spotify with DF red on our cellfon? thanks



im sure it will. 

but like any DAC, the better the source material you feed it, the better it will perform.


----------



## brad713

Hello, sorry if this has already been asked, but I recently purchased the iPad Pro 11 with the USB-C connector.  Has anybody had any success getting the DFR to work with an iPad Pro?  I bought the single USB-C to USB adapter from apple, but it doesn't even make the DFR light up (I might have received a defective adapter, I'm not sure).  I also see they make a bulkier "USB-C Digital AV Multiport Adapter" that has a USB-A female connector, but I haven't tried that yet as it is kind of pricey.  Has anyone had any luck with either of these adapters (or any other adapter) to get the DFR to work with iPad Pro?  Thanks a lot for any help.


----------



## frustration101

brad713 said:


> Hello, sorry if this has already been asked, but I recently purchased the iPad Pro 11 with the USB-C connector.  Has anybody had any success getting the DFR to work with an iPad Pro?  I bought the single USB-C to USB adapter from apple, but it doesn't even make the DFR light up (I might have received a defective adapter, I'm not sure).  I also see they make a bulkier "USB-C Digital AV Multiport Adapter" that has a USB-A female connector, but I haven't tried that yet as it is kind of pricey.  Has anyone had any luck with either of these adapters (or any other adapter) to get the DFR to work with iPad Pro?  Thanks a lot for any help.


Dragonfly Black works fine for me with USB-C to USB adapter. Maybe yours is faulty...


----------



## brad713

frustration101 said:


> Dragonfly Black works fine for me with USB-C to USB adapter. Maybe yours is faulty...



Thanks, that's good to hear.  Better to have a faulty adapter than to hear it's not working at all for anybody.


----------



## DOUGHN

JM1979 said:


> im sure it will.
> 
> but like any DAC, the better the source material you feed it, the better it will perform.



thanks  it worked


----------



## suzuki

Dan279 said:


> Just to check, will any of the dragonfly’s make music downloaded from the iTunes Store and played through an iPhone sound better? Be it black, red or cobalt.



I have a lot of music from ITunes and AAC256 does sound great. I also have a lot of cd's. Don't go any lower than AAC256. Now in saying that don't worry too much if it's high resolution or AAC 256, the important thing for sound quality is how it was originally recorded, mastered or re-mastered.

I've heard better AAC256 than some so called high resolution. It all depends on how it was recorded. Search for the better recorded music on ITunes, there is plenty there. Some artists just don't care about sound quality. They just want to sell to kids who have no idea and not spend the money to record it properly.

My DF red makes my laptop sound much better then on its own. Set up the DF properly in your computer and the DF delivers big time.


----------



## shootertwist

using an iphone and the DFR, lets say with tidal player (MQA, masters), does it feed the whole thing to the DFR bit perfect? not sure about the term, but it bypasses everything and go straight to dfr? i have tried out a couple of daps with android and each have their own technical faults, from glitch bluetooth to laggy interface and sometimes not working sd card, so looks like i’m going back to the dongle life and use my iphone 11 pro max and tether it to a DFR. Just curious how the DFR works and how it handles music, both via app, like vox, and tidal masters, many thanks.


----------



## psikey (Jan 8, 2020)

shootertwist said:


> using an iphone and the DFR, lets say with tidal player (MQA, masters), does it feed the whole thing to the DFR bit perfect? not sure about the term, but it bypasses everything and go straight to dfr? i have tried out a couple of daps with android and each have their own technical faults, from glitch bluetooth to laggy interface and sometimes not working sd card, so looks like i’m going back to the dongle life and use my iphone 11 pro max and tether it to a DFR. Just curious how the DFR works and how it handles music, both via app, like vox, and tidal masters, many thanks.



I currently use an old iPhone SE 128GB with my DFC exactly because it is bit perfect with Tidal.

If using BT you don't get MQA bit perfect anyway, even over LDAC which apple doesn't have. Have to be wired.


----------



## littlenezt (Jan 17, 2020)

hi there i my DFR just arrived,
i noticed that my unit usb part is tilted upwards
is this normal? there is no wobble or wiggle like the cobalt tho




edit : actually i just put the cap back on and gently push the usb and it straightens out.. welp


----------



## psikey (Jan 17, 2020)

littlenezt said:


> hi there i my DFR just arrived,
> i noticed that my unit usb part is tilted upwards
> is this normal? there is no wobble or wiggle like the cobalt tho
> 
> ...



When I had a DFR it was visually a bit out of line. Think its just down to how little circuit board locates inside the shell. I did apply a bit of force to mine to get straight as it annoyed me, otherwise just cosmetic. DFC was perfectly inline but then made change to case design/size.

Better to leave as is as always a risk if flexing end a bit.


----------



## Dan279

Just thought I would share my own personal experiences. I decided to go all in and buy all three dragonfly’s and the chord mojo to do a critical listening comparison of all 4 for my two main daily’s (Shure se846 and 1More Quad drivers). I also play hi res music from Amazon Music unlimited Ultra HD

Dragonfly Black

For the money, this DAC is very impressive. Definitely the best bang for your buck in terms of cost/improvement. Really steps up the music but it’s a very neutral sound signature so nothing really stands out. 

Dragonfly Red

A marked improvement on the Black as the bass, treble and Mids are very audibly improved and more forward sounding to my ears. Soundstage is better than on the black but not amazing. It is Bass heavy but still an enjoyable listen. 

Dragonfly Cobalt

Not as bass heavy as the Red but everything just sounds better. Much more crisp, detailed and the soundstage is incredible. In my opinion a worthy competitor to the Mojo and worth the steep price against the Red. It just sounds so much more pleasant. Nothing is too harsh but everything just sounds incredible. 

Chord Mojo

This is the best of the 4 hands down. Noticed the biggest difference using my Shure se846 but the soundstage was better, instrument separation was incredible, Bass, Mids and Treble all sounded impeccable with nothing muddying over anything else. I couldn’t really hear any difference between the Mojo and the Coablt using my 1More’s or even using my Sennheiser Momentum 3 over ears. Seems the Mojo comes into its own with high end IEM’s like the se846. 

Conclusion

The dragonfly’s are all amazing with the Cobalt definitely being the best of the three and considering the transportability and ease of use with it not needing to be charged to use, I would say the Cobalt is the Best Buy of the 3. But if you have the spare money and you do a lot of listening at a desktop or not moving, the Mojo really is just that bit better than the Cobalt. If money is tight, the Black is definitely worth the money. But if you’re going to spend a lot of money on a DAC, I would save that little bit more for the Cobalt over the Red. 

I hope this helps anyone considering any of the options. I have since returned the Black and Red and plan to keep the Mojo and Cobalt. Mojo to use at my desktop, the Cobalt for going out and about.


----------



## littlenezt (Jan 18, 2020)

my first impression of the DFR :

sounds musical, meatier and weightier on the upper bass / lower mid than my FiiO M11 DAP, detail wise not much lose compared to the M11,

i think i would keep both since the DFR would work well with my colder / brighter / analytical headphones / IEMs

a bit concerned about the tilted usb tho


edit :
question :
i just tried to use the DFR with my pocophone f1, it connects just fine but when i try to play something (youtube, spotify)
it appears to be some noise like vinyl scratching background noise,
but when i use the UAPP player it sounds normal and clean without hiss or any scratching noise, anyone know how to fix the noise?


----------



## blade74

Sorry that one of the photos isn’t focused very well but this is for anyone who wants to know what’s inside a cobalt.


----------



## miguelfcp

Is it me or seems to "simple" for a 300€ device??


----------



## psikey

miguelfcp said:


> Is it me or seems to "simple" for a 300€ device??



Cobalt is too expensive. Paying for brand and software/music tuning. I paid £150 for mine and sold DFR for £120 so worth it for me.


----------



## miguelfcp

psikey said:


> Cobalt is too expensive. Paying for brand and software/music tuning. I paid £150 for mine and sold DFR for £120 so worth it for me.



DF Black is worth the price I think. I paid 93€ two years and half ago and I'm happy with it. The problem with is loosing its black tone (I've uploaded some screenshots here some) and sometimes I head some hiss when music is not playing.


----------



## mohsin9221

I need a advice, since i live in Pakistan and there is no audioquest dealer here (well except for cables). My friend is right now in Las Vegas and on request he will visit Mongolia Store to buy dragonfly for me, I own Sennheiser 598 & Audio-Technica M50x which I`m currently driving through FIIO K1, Its is a cheap dac/amplifier but it was the only option easy available in market here. Its a bit warm sounding, which i like but i can easily hear its flaws in both headphones. If anyone has experience with these headphones and both dragonfly, how will it sound and which one i should go for Black or Red?


----------



## musickid

can someone confirm the apple cck 3 adaptor usb out is the normal 5v out on usb? thanks mk


----------



## Slaphead

musickid said:


> can someone confirm the apple cck 3 adaptor usb out is the normal 5v out on usb? thanks mk



Well it has to be, otherwise it isn't standard, at which point you cannot call it USB. Current delivery will be limited to 500mA as per the USB spec however.


----------



## musickid

thanks for the reply. how exactly does the cck3 connected to an ios device transform what it takes from the lightning connection into 5v out on the usb port?


----------



## Slaphead

musickid said:


> thanks for the reply. how exactly does the cck3 connected to an ios device transform what it takes from the lightning connection into 5v out on the usb port?



It doesn't need to transform anything - the lightning port is to all intents and purposes a USB connection, it just doesn't use a standard USB connector. The iOS device will supply the 5 volts needed through the lightning port, as per the USB specification.


----------



## FlavioWolff (Apr 16, 2020)

Guys, my DF black 1.5 is too loud for my current phones. is it ok to use it at very low volumes (5-15 range on windows 10)? Is there any issues like raised noise floor, channel imbalance or anything else that I should worry about by using a volume that low? I heard that the Black employs an analog volume control scheme.

Plan B would be turning everything down digitally via Equalizer APO.

thanks!


----------



## zuber

^ because of similar issues I ended up with ieMatch.


----------



## xandermaus

I listen to spotify on both an Android phone and a Macbook Air, but the DFR lights up blue with the phone and violet with the Macbook. Does that mean the DFR's audio quality is better on the Macbook?


----------



## Tigrowski

I just bought myself a Dragonfly Red DAC for my Audioquest Nighthawk headphones and am struggling a bit to config this setup properly. I disabled all system enhancements in the sound config as per Audioquest's instructions and set the sample rate to 96kHz as I most often listen to Master tracks on Tidal. Yet, despite doing all this, I feel like I must be missing something cause  the sound is only marginally better than it was when plugged straight into the motherboard and comparable (or even worse to my ear) than when plugged straight into my Macbook Air. I'm really surprised by this cause I expected something great and so far it's.. well.. debatable. I've tried both the USB 2.0 and 3.0 port but with little difference. So I have a few questions to make sure I'm not missing something:

1. The purple (MQA) colour only appears when Tidal is in exclusive mode. Is there really no way to have it work with MQA without this? I use my headphones for like 8 hours a day and it is just unacceptable to me to have to close the Tidal app before listening to a 1-minute clip on YouTube or something, only to then fire up Tidal again...
2. I saw the instructions recommend to turn the force volume option but this just results in the headphones blasting something like 50 on the system scale (+100 on the Tidal knob because this maxes it by default) at me on every song which is way too loud. If I crank it down, it'll blast something around 50 at me on the next song anyway. Am I losing quality by disabling the volume force?
3. Should I enable passthrough MQA in Tidal's settings for the DFR? I saw online posts claiming you should do that as DFR handles it through its hardware but in my case, this just resulted in the light going from purple (MQA) to magenta (96kHz) immediately.
4. Should I install/configure something more in Windows settings or is the quality I'm getting now how it's going to stay?

I guess it's just that there are so many ridiculously positive reviews of the DFR (and they're so hard to get now that I had to have been listed in a special queue in one of the few stores that still sell them where I live for almost three weeks to even be entitled to buy one, lol) that I expected to have my head blown away, especially since I heard what a difference it made to even plug the headphones into my Macbook vs PC. Expected a similar leap in quality, this time from Macbook direct in to PC + DFR but at best I'd say they're comparable... :/ 

Thanks a lot in advance for help and clarification!


----------



## Slaphead

Tigrowski said:


> I just bought myself a Dragonfly Red DAC for my Audioquest Nighthawk headphones and am struggling a bit to config this setup properly. I disabled all system enhancements in the sound config as per Audioquest's instructions and set the sample rate to 96kHz as I most often listen to Master tracks on Tidal. Yet, despite doing all this, I feel like I must be missing something cause  the sound is only marginally better than it was when plugged straight into the motherboard and comparable (or even worse to my ear) than when plugged straight into my Macbook Air. I'm really surprised by this cause I expected something great and so far it's.. well.. debatable. I've tried both the USB 2.0 and 3.0 port but with little difference. So I have a few questions to make sure I'm not missing something:
> 
> 1. The purple (MQA) colour only appears when Tidal is in exclusive mode. Is there really no way to have it work with MQA without this? I use my headphones for like 8 hours a day and it is just unacceptable to me to have to close the Tidal app before listening to a 1-minute clip on YouTube or something, only to then fire up Tidal again...
> 2. I saw the instructions recommend to turn the force volume option but this just results in the headphones blasting something like 50 on the system scale (+100 on the Tidal knob because this maxes it by default) at me on every song which is way too loud. If I crank it down, it'll blast something around 50 at me on the next song anyway. Am I losing quality by disabling the volume force?
> ...




First off what headphones are you using. If they're in ears or otherwise relatively low impedance then you'll probably not really hear much of a difference between the DFR and whatever inbuilt audio there is on your computers/phones - inbuilt audio is not bad these days. Where the DFR really shines is driving relatively high impedance full size headphones out of a phone or computer that would have difficulty being driven from a standard built in headphone port.

Secondly why are you bothering with MQA? It was a solution to a problem that had all but disappeared when it was released, and most certainly doesn't exist now.


----------



## jhoefen

Just ordered the red...excited to try it with my new legacy 3 iems!


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## d-a07

Just ordered the Red and UE 11 CSX. I can't wait.


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## Celamojo

Is dragon fly black/red still good bargin give all the new releases like Ifi Hip Dac?


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## megabigeye

Celamojo said:


> Is dragon fly black/red still good bargin give all the new releases like Ifi Hip Dac?


Maybe not such a good value anymore, unless you can find it at a discount. My nephew recently bought the DFR on Amazon for 50% off, so keep your eyes peeled.

Some things that make the DFR still interesting to me are: tiny size (fits inside an IEM case _with_ IEMs), single-ended only (great if you don't want to bother with extra cables), dead simple to use (no fiddly Bluetooth, no extraneous settings to fuss with), no battery to charge (only minor draw on a phone's battery, too), sounds good. I just wish it cost less.


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## Pablovi

zuber said:


> No, blue colour is not for MQA, see below:
> 
> DragonFly Red’s LED lights up in different colors to indicate status or sample rate:
> 
> ...



Magenta is lighter color, when it turns to purple it gets more saturate, you can actually see the change when you click play.


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## Random Lunatic

Has anyone found an alternative to apple's dongle to connect the dragonfly on the go? Because it keeps breaking because of their crappy strain-relief and wire, and its getting rather expensive to replace!


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## Nuhapaatti

Hi!

I've used Steinberg UR22mk2 for casual recording of vocals and guitar. At the same time I've had Audioquest Dragonfly Black v1.5 for my headphones to get some volume and soundstage out of them. I just started to wonder if it is possible to somehow connect the Dragonfly's 3.5mm output to my Steinberg audio interface and then connect my headphones to the Steinberg's headphone output (which didn't give enough for my headphones and which was the reason to get the Dragonfly)? Would the volume be pre-amped and I would get volume I need for my headphones, the soundstage and volume adjustable by the knob of my Steinberg?

Both are connected with usb to my PC.

Thank you very much!


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## Yoram Diamand

Hi, my Dac is being upgraded, so for a week I got the dragon fly red. I had the Feliks Audio Euforia and the Meze Empyreans to see what the dragon fly red could do. It sounds better with the tube amp than the Empyreans straight into the Dragon fly. A high end system combined with the mid level dac will show, the dac does not scale up into heaven. But is much better than the headphone output of the soundcard of my PC. 200 Euro worth? I wish I could rent it for a week.


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## makatech (Nov 23, 2020)

I recently bought a used DFR together with Jitterbug and a Supra RCA cable. Only a quick test so far but it is sounding good, firmware is updated.

This is how I plan using it:
1. When connecting my laptop to my old Marantz SR7500 receiver through pure direct when streaming from Tidal Hifi. The pure direct mode on my Marantz ensures it's the DFR Dac in use, this disables my subwoofer and some settings but the sound is good and detailed.
2. From my Samsung mobile phone using headphones on long boring car trips.

Questions:

For Windows it's plug and play (after verifying sound settings in Control Panel) and I don't need any additional software at all for controlling volume on the DFR?

For Android (S8 & S10 will be used) together with Tidal (Hifi) I need the buy a USB C OTG cable together with USB Audio Player Pro or Jet Audio?
https://www.extreamsd.com/index.php/products/usb-audio-player-pro

Finally I have no idea if the Jitterbug really is needed but I am using it right now. Perhaps it's good using it from the laptop but not necessary for my phone?

Any recommendations would be highly appreciated for maximum the quality of sound from the DFR from my two scenarios.


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## rwpritchett (Nov 23, 2020)

makatech said:


> I recently bought a used DFR together with Jitterbug and a Supra RCA cable. Only a quick test so far but it is sounding good, firmware is updated.
> 
> This is how I plan using it:
> 1. When connecting my laptop to my old Marantz SR7500 receiver through pure direct when streaming from Tidal Hifi. The pure direct mode on my Marantz ensures it's the DFR Dac in use, this disables my subwoofer and some settings but the sound is good and detailed.
> ...


For phone use, all you need is the USB-C OTG cable and you must use USB Audio Player Pro to let the DAC handle all of the work. S10 user here.

For Windows, you will need to use software that can bypass the Windows direct sound software layer or else the DAC is not playing the music file directly (your 96kHz music might be downsampled to 48kHz by Windows then sent to the DAC, for example).

There are several options. Foobar2000 is the most popular because it is free and flexible but it does require some setup with separate plugins. Personally I'm a fan of Jriver Media Center but its not free and it has a learning curve. In either program you need to configure audio output using WASAPI, ASIO, or kernel streaming to completely bypass Windows sound processing. I find WASAPI is easier to get working properly.


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## makatech

rwpritchett said:


> For phone use, all you need is the USB-C OTG cable and you must use USB Audio Player Pro to let the DAC handle all of the work. S10 user here.
> 
> For Windows, you will need to use software that can bypass the Windows direct sound software layer or else the DAC is not playing the music file directly (your 96kHz music might be downsampled to 48kHz by Windows then sent to the DAC, for example).
> 
> There are several options. Foobar2000 is the most popular because it is free and flexible but it does require some setup with separate plugins. Personally I'm a fan of Jriver Media Center but its not free and it has a learning curve. In either program you need to configure audio output using WASAPI, ASIO, or kernel streaming to completely bypass Windows sound processing. I find WASAPI is easier to get working properly.



Many thanks, so far in Windows I have only been using Tidal (paying for Hifi option) and I believe it was working (running Tidal in exclusive mode).

I will sporadically use Foobar2000 too though for my flac collection but not trying together with the DFR yet.

Will also try the DFR on my desktop where I am currently running Topping A90 and iFi Zen Dac (as a Dac) but my plan is having the DFR dedicated for my Marantz receiver unless when travelling.

Do you have any experience from the Jitterbug usb dongle? I'm a bit confused about this one and not sure yet if it is doing anything good for my sound chain.


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## makatech (Nov 29, 2020)

I'm a bit confused about the sound settings in Windows 10 for the DragonFly Red. Would appreciate if somebody could enlighten me. 

Using the DFR together with Tidal (Hifi), the desktop client.

It looks like my sound setting in Windows is being reset to 61% whenever I change the level. Not sure if this is a Tidal, DFR or Windows 10 issue? When running Tidal I believe the sound setting is being reset when a new song is starting.

Settings in Swedish.


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## spacecowboy2050 (Dec 12, 2020)

I’ve just bought the DFR to replace my DFB but I’ve got a few questions that I hope someone can answer for me!
I consider myself to be an audiophile of sorts in that I’m really picky with sound quality and like everything the best it can be within my budget. I’d like to think I can tell the difference between devices during listening although it’s not always the case!

I’m using the DFR from my iPhone 12 through the camera adapter into my Sennheiser Monentum 3s. I’ve tried various headphones in that price range (PX7s, QC35s) and liked the Senneisers the best. I know that some people may scoff here at the fact that I’m using £300 wireless headphones and I should be using pure wired ones but I enjoy the flexibility they give me.
Onto my 2 issues.
Firstly, I’m obviously using the headphones in wired mode from the DFR but if I do this with the headphones powered off I don’t get such good, full sound, even if I use an app with an eq such as Boom or Spotify (I wish Tidal would include an eq, people have been asking for one for years). When I use the DFR with the headphones powered on in active mode the sound is much better. My question is, are the headphones asking the sound through its own audio circuitry that negates the high quality sound coming from the DFR? With the headphones on, it is giving me ANC, the stored EQ inside the headphones and transparent hearing. So it must be doing something with the sound? It is it just amplifying it rather than changing it (apart from the EQ)?

This leads me onto my second question which could be linked to the first. Having tested both the Black and the Red, I couldn’t really tell much difference. There may have been a subtle difference but this could have been in my head knowing I’m using the better one. I decided to get the £8 Apple DAC adapter and again I couldn’t really hear anything massively different. I was using tidal masters as my reference although it wasn’t a strict A/B test as I kept having to unplug and plug back in giving me time to forget how the last one sounded!
If I’m not hearing a difference, is this something to do with how the headphones are processing the sound? At the moment, although I generally like how the music is sounding through the headphones, I can’t feel that I’ve got £170 with of sound over the cheap apple dongle.

Any advice/comments would be appreciated!


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## megabigeye

spacecowboy2050 said:


> I’ve just bought the DFR to replace my DFB but I’ve got a few questions that I hope someone can answer for me!
> I consider myself to be an audiophile of sorts in that I’m really picky with sound quality and like everything the best it can be within my budget. I’d like to think I can tell the difference between devices during listening although it’s not always the case!
> 
> I’m using the DFR from my iPhone 12 through the camera adapter into my Sennheiser Monentum 3s. I’ve tried various headphones in that price range (PX7s, QC35s) and liked the Senneisers the best. I know that some people may scoff here at the fact that I’m using £300 wireless headphones and I should be using pure wired ones but I enjoy the flexibility they give me.
> ...


I don't know the answer to your first question. My best answer/guess is that even if the headphones are double-amping the output from the DFR, it's still the output from the DFR rather than some other device.  Does that make sense (I'm kinda sleepy and I can't tell if what I'm writing makes as much sense as what I'm thinking)?  The only way it'd be truly "negating" the DFR is if the headphones are receiving a digital signal (i.e., Bluetooth).

As to your second question: in a lot of metrics, the DFR actually measures _worse_ than the Apple dongle, despite costing some 20x more.  Google "audiosciencereview audioquest dragonfly" to see what I mean.  As far as I know, ASR has only measured the USB-C Apple dongle, but I assume the Lightning one is similar.  Anecdotally, using lowish impedance 'phones, I could not hear any difference between the DFR and the headphone output on my 2014 MacBook Air, but the MacBook actually sounded _better_ than the DFR with high impedance headphones.  Unfortunately, my DFR broke, so I can only go on memory.  I used to like and recommend the DFR, but I think there are probably much (much, much) better bargains out there these days.

But whether or not I recommend the DragonFly or if it measures better or worse is kinda beside the point.  What matters is whether or not _you_ can hear a difference and/or enjoy using it.


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## spacecowboy2050

Thank you for your reply, much appreciated!


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## sebek

Has anyone compared DFR with a FiiO BTR5? Which is better?

Does the DFR have problems with sensitive IEMs? Does Jitterbug make sense, does it improve the sound in any way?

And can it easily drive headphones like HD58X and AKG K701?

I can get it used for 80 € or through an exchange with IEMs that I use little.


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## 1-MiC

I had used it to drive my K7XX quite often. I enjoyed the sound. Using my phone I couldn’t max the volume without distorting but that was VERY loud. Using my laptop I never even got close to maxing the volume so no trouble there.


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## megabigeye

sebek said:


> Has anyone compared DFR with a FiiO BTR5? Which is better?
> 
> Does the DFR have problems with sensitive IEMs? Does Jitterbug make sense, does it improve the sound in any way?
> 
> ...


I got the BTR5 as a replacement for the DFR after the DragonFly broke, so I never had a chance to compare them side by side. From memory, though, I thought they sounded pretty similar.  Both have worked well with my Westone UM Pro 50, 45Ω and 117dB@1mW.

What's your intended use? On the go? Wired? Connected to your PC? Feeding another amp?
If you're going to use it on the go, commuting, etc., something Bluetooth like the BTR5 is a much better option. Even though they're both tiny, when they're wired to your phone they're kinda a PITA to put in your pocket. My DFR was constantly coming unplugged from my phone while I was out and about. I haven't even bothered with the BTR5 because there's really no point. Bluetooth sounds very, very close to wired, and it's way more convenient. Also, the DFR will drain a phone; BTR5 will drain a phone's battery really quickly if it's in charge mode.
If you're gonna use it wired connected to a PC, something like the DFR would probably be the better option since it won't have a battery that you have to worry about. I'm not 100% on this, but I'm pretty sure once the battery on the BTR5 goes the whole thing is useless.
The DFR would also be better if you're using it to feed another amp, since the BTR5 doesn't output 2V from single-ended and using the 2.5mm output will likely cause a short within the BTR5.

That all said, unless there's some feature that you're absolutely married to, there are probably better options than either. The Tempotec Sonata HD Pro gets very good reviews and costs a fraction of the DFR. The Qudelix 5K costs about the same as the BTR5, but I think it has a better battery life and allegedly sounds just as good. Also, I find the FiiO apps to be annoyingly bad; I assume the Qudelix app is better since the Radsone app is so good.

Hope this is all useful to you.


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## sebek

megabigeye said:


> I got the BTR5 as a replacement for the DFR after the DragonFly broke, so I never had a chance to compare them side by side. From memory, though, I thought they sounded pretty similar.  Both have worked well with my Westone UM Pro 50, 45Ω and 117dB@1mW.
> 
> What's your intended use? On the go? Wired? Connected to your PC? Feeding another amp?
> If you're going to use it on the go, commuting, etc., something Bluetooth like the BTR5 is a much better option. Even though they're both tiny, when they're wired to your phone they're kinda a PITA to put in your pocket. My DFR was constantly coming unplugged from my phone while I was out and about. I haven't even bothered with the BTR5 because there's really no point. Bluetooth sounds very, very close to wired, and it's way more convenient. Also, the DFR will drain a phone; BTR5 will drain a phone's battery really quickly if it's in charge mode.
> ...


Thanks, very helpful.

I would use it mainly at home and with my smartphone.

I am looking for a second device with a normal 3.5 mm output.

Tempotec Sonata HD Pro is my first option, then I found this opportunity on the DFR and thought maybe it has more power to drive over ear headphones and maybe a better SQ.


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## bmoregnr

I like the Lotoo PAW S1 driving Etymotics a lot more than the DFR.  The S1 does not have the bright/glassy coloration of the DFR while also being more open/natural. I also like the volume on the unit over needing the iPhone volume with the DFR.  I don’t use the EQ modes but they are there if that matters to you.


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## megabigeye (Jan 3, 2021)

sebek said:


> Thanks, very helpful.
> 
> I would use it mainly at home and with my smartphone.
> 
> ...


Oh right. I forgot you said 80€. That seems like a decent price. I'm on my phone right now, so I can't (or, uh, I'm too lazy to) look up power specs for the Tempotec or your headphones.
Also, for what it's worth, I never found the DFR to be bright, or "glassy," or whatever other descriptors for hot in the treble. I thought it sounded pretty good/neutral.


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## sebek (Jan 30, 2021)

EDIT


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## d-a07

blade74 said:


> Sorry that one of the photos isn’t focused very well but this is for anyone who wants to know what’s inside a cobalt.


Cool picture. Crazy what is inside those small DACs.


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## Nuhapaatti

Hi everyone!

Is it possible to feed, I say, Topping A30Pro with DFB v1.5? Output is around one voltage but I haven't been to the hobby too long to make sense out of input sensitivity of Topping A30Pro >< output of DFB.

Thank you everyone for your advice!


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## buke9

Sure not a problem as it will work . The DFB is only 1.5 v as normal line out is 2v so it will not be as powerful and the output of the amp will not be as much as it will be like turning the computer volume down to 75 % or so with a dac that has 2v output. While your amp is fairly powerful might not be too much of a problem but going to work much harder,


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## Sajid Amit

Hi everyone. My first time on this thread. I have recently reviewed the iFi Hip DAC, if it's of interest to anyone. I have a brief comparison to the DF Cobalt here. 

https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/ifi-audio-hip-dac.24211/reviews#review-25877

Please do share feedback if any since I am starting out with reviews! 

Reviewing mostly for fun.


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## Richard Wray

Is there any news on a dragonfly with a 4.4mm connection?


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## Lionlian

for this tiny DAC to be on Stereophile Recommend Class B for many and many more years now, rating for Dragonfly Black must be around 9-10/10

but Cobalt take it to another level and rating is 11/10 (sounds rivalry Chord Mojo)


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## Slaphead

Quick question - I've already got a Red, is the upgrade to a Cobalt objectively worth it - it'll primarily be used with Beyer DT1770 and DT1990 headphones.

I'm suspecting not, but I thought I'd ask anyway.


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## Lionlian

If you fine with technically 10% better (which can mean 1.5x or 2x for some human ears feeling) then Dragonfly Cobalt would be fine upgrade,

Otherwise if you already love dragonfly red, there is no need for upgrade due to sounds signature is not same (Red is Audiophile/Reference tuning while Cobalt is more natural/Beautiful Euphonic Sound tuning)


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## Slaphead

Thanks - I actually prefer a more reference tuning, so I'll save myself a bit of money.


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## mainguy

Lionlian said:


> for this tiny DAC to be on Stereophile Recommend Class B for many and many more years now, rating for Dragonfly Black must be around 9-10/10
> 
> but Cobalt take it to another level and rating is 11/10 (sounds rivalry Chord Mojo)


No way. I've had both, the cobalt is nowhere near the mojo.

But it's to be expected, tbh, it's a very different product with some serious portable advantages. It's not really competing with the Mojo, and on SQ, it can't.


----------

