# Headphone Tube Amps - The hunt for all 300B TUBE AMPS



## protoss (Oct 21, 2022)

I am trying to compile a full list of all 300B TUBE Headphone amplifiers.
Am I missing top-tier amps with 300B tube inputs?

Headphone amplifiers that takes *300B TUBES. *

Western Electric 91E 300B $15,000
Robson Acoustics - 300B Amplifier $7000.00
Feliks audio Envy $7000
Cayin HA-300MK2 $4300
Ultrasonic Studios Telemachus $5000
Vinnie Rossi LIO DHT 300B $10,000 (Discontinued)
Ampsandsound October $12000
Consonance Linear Q $9,000
Audion Silver Night HP1 $7000
Radu, Shiny Eyes 300B $7000
Manley Labs – Neo-Classic 300B $7000
Fostex HP-V8 300B $10000
Thivanlabs 300B single ended amp $6500
The Minute 45 Amplifier by SAC Thailand $4000
ModWright HA 300 Headphone Amp $7900
TRIODE - TRV-A300XR - SE 300B $4000
Little Dot LD_Y2 300B $4000
Audio Space AS-6i (300B) $4000
Original OPA 3A - 300B $2600
Opera Consonance Linear X $7100
Pier Audio MS-300 HD $4000
Halgorythme Bloc Stéréo SE 300B 6W $4000
WBA Virtus 300B $1488
Cary Audio 300SEI $4000
Willsenton R300 $1000
Elekit 8900/Elekit 8600 $1500
Ampsandsound Agartha $6300
Eddie Current Studio B $3500  - Can be built with 300B
Coincident Dynamo MKIII 300B $3000 - available on special order for 300B tubes 
WA234-MONO Headphone $18,000 -Most expensive HP *300B* amp yet
Woo 3ES Electrostatic $9000 - Electrostatic Amp with 300B tubes
Woo Audio WA5 $6500
Transcendent Sound Masterpiece 300B $700
Raphaelite CK300 Split $3000
Lyele Audio 300B $1200
Meixing MC300EAR updated with XLR headphone $2700
YAQIN MS-300C $1200
FLUXION GM-2, 300B $1200
MUZISHARE X9 300B Tube Amplifier $2000
Yaqin MS-500B Integrated Amplifier Class A $1500
Feather Classic Artist No.16.2 300B $5000
Classic No.16.9 2A3 Tube Integrated Amplifier $2500
The Grant Fidelity A-534B amplifier $1800 (Discontinued)
ANK Virtuoso 300B $2500
Kin Fong Audio 300 EE $1500
Tom Christiansen’s Damn Good 300B SET Amp
Sinus amp is called OTL 300B
Moth Audio 300B
Glenn 300B


⭐️"White Bird Amplification" as the best value 300B Amplifier
https://www.wbamp.com/product/virtus-300b-otl-single-ended-headphone-amplifier/

*NON-300B*

Ångstrom Stella Headphone Amplifier MK2 $15,000
DNA Stellaris amplifiers $4000 - $6000
Aries Cerat Genus 845 $18,000
Apex High Fi Audio Pinnacle 2 12,000
Apex High Fi Audio Teton $5000
Auris Headonia  $10,000
Air TIght ATM-2 Plus Stereo Power Amplifier $21,500
ALLNIC HPA-3000 GT $4300
Allnic HPA-5000 XL $8000
ALO Audio Studio Six $4000-7000
Audio Technica AT-HA5050H Hybrid $7000
Arcturus Elysium Headphone Amplifier $5000
Acoustic Masterpiece AM-201H $3000
Ångstrom Zenith ZHA06 $4200
Audio Intimo MK2 $3200
Auris Audio Nirvana $6000
AudioValve RKV 3 $4000
AudioValve Assistent 50-HP $4000
Bottlehead Neothoriator $10,000
Clinamen SATYA : E55L Single Valve $7000
Cary Audio SLP-05 $10,000
Conrad-Johnson HVA1 $10,000
Ultrasone Volcano $20,000
Brinkmann Nyquist Mk II $17,000
Viva Egoista STX $15,000
HiFiMAN EF1000 Amp $15,000
Riviera AIC-10 $13,000
OCTAVE V16 Single Ended $12,000
Trafomatic Primavera  $12,000
Woo Audio WA33 $8500
DNA stellaris  $10,000
Leben CS300XS $8000
Leben CS-600X Integrated Amplifier $7200
McIntosh C22 Mk V $6000
Dared Saturn Signature $2080
EAR HP-4 $5000
Makoyi - Transformer Coupled Tube Headphone Amp $2500
Clinamen Ariel $4000
RSA Emmeline II, “The B-52 $6000
Thomas Mayer Stereo Headphone Amplifier $7000
Eddie Current – Studio $7000
Primaluna evo 400 $5000
Viva Egoista 845 ~$10,000
McIntosh MHA200 $3000
Rogue Audio RH-5 $3000
Hagerman Audio Labs Tuba $500
TOR AUDIO $1000
Manley Absolute Headphone Amplifier $4500
Fosgate Signature Tube Amp $2000
Toolshed Amps – Darling $3000
Decware – CSP3 $1500
Copland DAC 215 $2200
Wolf Ear Natayo $1800
Wolf Ear Makoyi $2400
Dragon Inspire IHA-1 $1500
1101 Blue Halo $2000
ENIGMAcoustics Athena A1 $1500
Paltauf HPA-100 $4000
ZMF Pendant SE $2500
Paltauf KHV-ESD $5000
Fezz Omega Lupi $1500
Heaven 11 Billie Amp $1650
Sophia Electric Baby Amplifier II $1650 - Headphone jack can be installed
VTL IT-85 Integrated Amplifier $5000
ROGERS 65V-1 Integrated Amplifier $5000
Mapletree Mellow Boy $1000
Sonnare The Emotion $1800
Ecko Audio EVH $3000
Vincent Audio KHV-200 $1100
Pathos Aurium $1500
EternalArts Twin Type Professional $3000
Zesto Leto 1.5 Preamplifier $7500
Lucarto Songolo HPA300SE $3000S.I.
Quicksilver Headphone Amplifier $1000
Black Ice Glass FX DAC DSD WiFi $1000
iFi Pro iDSD Signature $3000
Icon Audio HP 205D $3000
Monolith Liquid Platinum $800
MegaHertz MezzoGuerra
Darkvoice 336SE $300
La Figaro 339i $900
Mactone HF-1 amp
Woo Audio Amplifers - WA2,  WA6,  WA5LE,  WA22

*PRE-AMPS with TUBEs*

Western Electric 91E 300B - preamp out se only (line/var)
Feliks audio Envy - se/xlr
Vinnie Rossi LIO DHT 300B - se only
Audion Silver Night HP1 - optional se/xlr (custom order)
Manley Labs – Neo-Classic 300B - se only
Opera Consonance Linear X - se/xlr
Woo 3ES Electrostatic - xlr only (no remote)
ES8 Electrostatic Headphone Amplifier / Preamplifier
WA23 LUNA
Eternity-Jo Tube Amp ET2
BeePre2 300B Preamplifier Kit
Audio Space Reference 2 Linestage Preamplifier

*DACs with 300B TUBES*

Acuhorn R2R XT R2R DAC - https://www.acuhorn.pl/acuhorn-R2RXT.htm
Audio Phonique Tube DAC - https://www.audiophonique.com/dac-dht/
Big 7 Mk2 from Lampizator
https://www.lampizatorpoland.com/big-7-dac


*CD-Player with tubes*

ProLogue Premium CD Player

*TUBES:*

Western Electric 300B
JJ 300B
Takatsuki 300B
Sophia Electric Princess 300B
Shuguang 300b tubes
Linlai™ Global E-300B vacuum tubes
ELROG 300B
Ps Vane tubes 300B
Genalex Gold Lion PX300B
KR 300B RK LIMITED SERIES
Emission Labs 300B

*TUBE DAMPERS:*
https://herbiesaudiolab.com/collections/tube-dampers
you need the "65 version"
-HAL-O III-65
-UltraSonic Rx-65

*Podcast on 300B*
https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2022...u-ever-wanted-to-know-the-occasional-podcast/

Video sound test of WE91E amplifer


"Western Electric 300B sound test" <-- Page 40


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## helljudgement

protoss said:


> Headphone amplifiers that takes *300B TUBES. *
> 
> Auris Headonia $10000
> DNA stellaris $10000
> ...


At a glance these amps do not take 300b. I think you might need to take a second look at your list.


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## protoss (May 18, 2022)

*300B Electrostatic Headphone Amplifiers*

HiFiMan Shangri-La Sr Electrostatic Amplifier $32,000
Woo 3ES Electrostatic $9000

*Non-300 Electrostatic Headphone Amplifiers*

Brio ES electrostatic amplifier $3000
Corsonus Kodachi+ $3600
Woo Audio ES8 Electrostatic amp - $3000
Z10e electrostatic headphone amp $7000
HeadAmp Aristaeus $4000
Bottlehead - Stat Electrostatic Headphone $1500
Venture Electronics Enterprise E Lite electrostatic amp $3000
AudioValve Solaris $5000
Emmeline “A-10, Thunderbolt II $6500
Headamp BHSE $7000
IFI PRO IESL Electrostatic Headphone $1800
SHANGRI-LA jr amplifier ELECTROSTATIC $4000
Woo Audio GES $1500
Sennheiser HE 1 50,000
Sennheiser HE90V $10,000
Eksonic Aeras $6500
Kerry Tube amps
Spritzer Tube amps
Eddie Current Electra Electrostatic Amplifier
AURIDUX stax amp
Megatron Electrostatic
DIY T2
Eurydice electrostatic amp
STAX T8000 and all STAX tube amps


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## helljudgement

I've highlighted a few on my post above.


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## protoss (Jun 9, 2022)

This list is for people on a tight budget and refuse to pay over $1000 for tubes.
Price for a pair of 300B tubes

Sophia Electric Princess 300B (Pair) $475
Sophia Electric blue glass Classic 300B tube (Pair) $699
Sophia Electric Globe Classic 300B tube (Pair) $699
Emission Labs 300B (Pair) $690
Emission Labs 300B XLS (Pair) $820
Emission Labs 300B Mesh (Pair) $845
Linlai™ Global E-300B vacuum tubes (pair) $899
Linlai™ Global WE Replica 300B Vacuum Tubes (pair) $699
KR 300B BALLOON $755
KR 300B $707
KR 300B XLS $760
TJ Fullmusic MESH PLATE 300B PAIR $365.00
TJ Fullmusic 300B – Mesh plate $370 (Globe or Dome)
TJ Fullmusic SE $740
TJ Fullmusic B+ and C+ edition $850
TJ Fullmusic CNE $999
300B-WC (Pair) $966
WE300B Psvane Tube (Pair) $899
GENALEX - GOLD LION PX-300B (Pair) $540
ELECTRO-HARMONIX 300B GOLD GRID (Pair) $430
JJ 300B (Pair) $291
SHUGUANG 300B-98 (Pair) $260


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## kvik

Ampsandsound Agartha
Sinus Audio has one
Allnic isn’t one


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## barbz127

Elekit 8600


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## Whitigir (Apr 12, 2022)

barbz127 said:


> Elekit 8600


Also Elekit 8900, and this thing takes both 300B or interchangeably to 2A3 as well


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## Haidar

Willsenton R300

Some others at https://hoved-fi.dk/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=3753


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## paradoxper

protoss said:


> @helljudgement
> 
> Well it brought the list down alot 😆
> There has to be more 300B Amps?


You almost had me thinking I could use my Primavera with 300B in excitement. LOL


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## elnero

The Cary Audio 300SEI is an an integrated with a headphone output. It used to be somewhat popular for headphones but you don’t here it talked about anymore.


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## protoss (Apr 12, 2022)

ADDED* Thanks....

Could not find the proper model for Sinus Audio?

@Haidar
You found a treasure chest!! Zeus almighty! This might take me a few days or weeks to sort through.


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## bobmysterious

The "*B*" in the Eddie Current Studio *B* stands for *300B*... Also "B" for "Badass," but I'll spare you my speculation on that.


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## protoss (Apr 12, 2022)

bobmysterious said:


> The "*B*" in the Eddie Current Studio *B* stands for *300B*... Also "B" for "Badass," but I'll spare you my speculation on that.


Correct on website its states:

"Eddie Current Announces New Run of  Studio B in* 300B* OR 2A3 Version"

With the demand for the Studio B, Eddie Current will run a limited number of amps in 2022 and *was able to modify the new run to accommodate either a 300B* or 2A3 version

Added*


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## ColSaulTigh

https://wooaudio.com/amplifiers/wa5

https://wooaudio.com/amplifiers/wa234mono


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## protoss (Apr 12, 2022)

@ColSaulTigh

ADDED*

Very interesting and strange. The WA33 that cost up to $18000 like the Mono but dose not used the 300B? Am I not reading the specs right? If correct,

The WA33 is a useless amp. No 300B say bye bye.
People should buy the Mono https://wooaudio.com/amplifiers/wa234mono if they are Woo fans or the WA5


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## ColSaulTigh

Since you're also listing tubes:  KR Audio KR300B Riccardo Kron Limited Edition (matched pair)


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## ColSaulTigh

protoss said:


> @ColSaulTigh
> 
> ADDED*
> 
> ...


WA33 is probably due for a refresh.  First release was 2018, so it's 5 years old.  A solid amp, but yes, not 300B.


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## protoss

ADDED*
Yes, I want the best 300B tubes out there.
I am only familiar with Sophia Electric Princess 300B. Excellent company and tubes.


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## ColSaulTigh

protoss said:


> ADDED*
> Yes, I want the best 300B tubes out there.
> I am only familiar with Sophia Electric Princess 300B. Excellent company and tubes.


I have a KR 5U4G Riccardo Kron Anniversary Edition in my (lowly) Woo Audio WA6-SE Gen 2, and it's the best rectifier I've heard yet.  Including my Takatsuki - which reminds me: Takatsuki 300B


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## protoss

These are some nice gems. Added*

KR 5U4G Riccardo Kron Anniversary Edition
Takatsuki 300B


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## ColSaulTigh

While I'm at it: Emission Labs 300B, Emission Labs 300B 2.5 (The EML 300B-25 is a direct replacement for the 2A3 tube), Emission Labs 300B Mesh Long Annode, Emission Labs 300B-XLS, and Emission Labs 320B-XLS (The intention of 320B-XLS vs 300B-XLS.  With tubes, when increasing the heater power, the tube gets more suited for harder conditions. For this reason we recommend the 320B in situations where 300B-XLS would be used near the end of it's possibilities. Such as biased close to maximum, and for Push-Pull amplifiers. Though Push Pull can be made with any 300B, it is known to be harder on the tubes than a Single Ended design).


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## ColSaulTigh

protoss said:


> These are some nice gems. Added*
> 
> KR 5U4G Riccardo Kron Anniversary Edition
> Takatsuki 300B


The KR 5U4G RK is NOT a 300B - they make a 300B variant, see previous post.


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## ColSaulTigh

https://best300b-com.myshopify.com/collections/tubes/products/300b-c

https://best300b-com.myshopify.com/collections/tubes/products/300b-98 (*not recommended - provided for reference only)


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## ColSaulTigh

Whitigir said:


> Also Elekit 8900, and this thing takes both 300B or interchangeably to 2A3 as well


Did you build the kit?  How hard was it?  I've been toying with the idea of building one for giggles.


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## ColSaulTigh

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/l...a-300b-tube-monoblocks-demo-tube#&gid=1&pid=1


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## protoss

ColSaulTigh said:


> https://www.audiogon.com/listings/l...a-300b-tube-monoblocks-demo-tube#&gid=1&pid=1


Looks nice but not a *headphone* 300B Amp?


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## ColSaulTigh

protoss said:


> Looks nice but not a *headphone* 300B Amp?


Ok, technically, no.  With an adapter though...


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## Whitigir

ColSaulTigh said:


> Did you build the kit?  How hard was it?  I've been toying with the idea of building one for giggles.


Yes sir! It is fun if you have built amps before, upgrade options are going to raise the price a bit.


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## Gazza

Just here as a very, _very _happy *Manley Audio Labs Neo-Classic 300B pre *owner. They are simply phenomenal, especially with speakers.

Will be doing a full tube replacement in the coming months as the current tubes are 10 years old. Likely going for the new WE 300Bs, 5691 RCA Red Base for the 6sL7 and the Takatsuki TA- 274B for rectifier tubes if the budget allows. Not sure which 0D3 to go for. Maybe Mullard or JAN?


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## Haidar

Two more:

Coincident Dynamo MKIII (available on special order optimized for 300B output tubes instead of the EL 34 which is still standard)
Transcendent Sound Masterpiece 300B Preamp/Headphone Amp


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## lumdicks (Apr 13, 2022)

Despite it is discontinued, Fostex HP-V8 should also be included.





I have a pair of Western Electric 300B (2021 version) for my Little Dot LD-Y2 and a pair of Takatsuki TAK300B for HP-V8. The Takatsuki has amazing airy mid and high and perfect imaging, while the Western Electric is strong at low, sweet mid and excellent dynamics.


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## protoss (Apr 13, 2022)

Transcendent Sound Masterpiece 300B Preamp/Headphone Amp added*
Re-added Fostex to 300B list.



lumdicks said:


> Fostex HP-V8


I had it in the non-300B, didn't realize it took 300B! Impressive looking amp.


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## protoss

Gazza said:


> *Manley Audio Labs Neo-Classic 300B pre *owner


Is it great with headphones? or it is only amazing with speakers?


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## kvik

protoss said:


> ADDED* Thanks....
> 
> Could not find the proper model for Sinus Audio?
> 
> ...


The Sinus amp is called OTL 300B, it's a sibling to OTL 2A3 ProAudio, it's not on his website, but there's a photo on his facebook page.


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## protoss

Added* 
With 20 more amps


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## kvik

I can sort of understand the 300B interest, but what is the criteria for the non-300B entries? Wouldn't it be more interesting to sort everything into for instance directly/ndirectly heated; triode/pentode/tetrode; power/driver/rectifier; or sort by popular/well-known tubes like 300B/2A3/EL34/EL84/6080/KTxx/etc? Just stating name and price doesn’t provide much incentive to investigate further, at least not for me.


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## rmsanger

Something like this:

https://www.head-fi.org/classifieds/cayin-845a-tube-integrated-amp.22625/

https://en.cayin.cn/features/8/57/73/369.html

I looked really hard at buying that listing over the HA-300Mk2 ... has 300B and 845A tubes in the same unit.  Would have run to hp's via speaker taps.


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## paradoxper

@protoss do a list of 300B preamps for me please.


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## Bonddam

Tubes 300b crazy 😧


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## jonathan c

Bonddam said:


> Tubes 300b crazy 😧


…goddam! Bonddam!….👍👍🤪🤪


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## Bonddam

I have LD-Y2 and did two repairs already. Basically no warranty living in USA unless you can make the investment in shipping to China.

Two resistors blew and toggle switch burnt. Do all the fixings myself.


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## Gazza

protoss said:


> Is it great with headphones? or it is only amazing with speakers?



With both, definitely, it's just one of the amp's strongest features is the gargantuan and holographic soundstage, something that headphones struggle with compared to speakers. Regardless, the Manley is a reference performer regardless of what you're listening to.


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## protoss (Apr 13, 2022)

kvik said:


> what is the criteria for the non-300B entries?


I will use the Woo Audio WA33 as an example to explain.

I placed the WA33 as a 300B amp. Poster 1 explained that it was not a 300B amp. I had to recheck and found out it is in fact not a 300B amp. This surprised me and maybe to others too. So, to prevent future poster to repeat and ask me to put the WA33 as a 300B, I made a NON-300B list. This not only help us but give everyone an example of how many amplifiers there are and an idea of other companies.  https://wooaudio.com/amplifiers/wa33

My primary goal is still for the hunt for 300B headphone amplifiers.



> stating name and price doesn’t provide much incentive to investigate further, at least not for me


I am only 1 person. This is enough to tickle a person interest to further investigate their amps. With my list or our list, I already have 2 amplifiers I am ready to buy


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## protoss

Bonddam said:


> Tubes 300b crazy 😧


Holy schiit !! That is an impressive collection.


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## protoss

paradoxper said:


> @protoss do a list of 300B preamps for me please.


Thats a lot of research.... Next someone might ask to make a speaker tube amp list.
Maybe I place the letter *[P] *as an indication as a preamplifier to the existing list. 
Ill think about it...


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## Bonddam

Gazza said:


> With both, definitely, it's just one of the amp's strongest features is the gargantuan and holographic soundstage, something that headphones struggle with compared to speakers. Regardless, the Manley is a reference performer regardless of what you're listening to.


I'd love to own a Manley.


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## paradoxper

protoss said:


> Thats a lot of research.... Next someone might ask to make a speaker tube amp list.
> Maybe I place the letter *[P] *as an indication as a preamplifier to the existing list.
> Ill think about it...


I was being lazy. LOL

I ended up with a Cabernet DHT but I'll compare to a Neo later down the line. 

300B craze has swept.


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## Ciggavelli (Apr 13, 2022)

Woo Audio 3ES is a 300B estat amp (I own it)

https://wooaudio.com/amplifiers/3es


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## Ham Sandwich

The Eddie Current Balancing Act was available in two versions. A version that could use 300B or PX4 tubes. And a version that could use 45 or 2A3 tubes.

Internet Archive Wayback Machine link mentioning both versions: https://web.archive.org/web/20111220014846/http://www.eddiecurrent.com:80/Balancing_Act.html


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## protoss (Apr 13, 2022)

paradoxper said:


> Cabernet DHT


That's pretty good.

I would of went for something more exotic personally like  http://www.shindo-laboratory.co.jp/Front/indexe.html

They have 3 preamp and 2 300B amps
http://www.shindo-laboratory.co.jp/English/Cortese 300B.html


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## paradoxper

protoss said:


> That's pretty good.
> 
> I would of went for something more exotic personally like  http://www.shindo-laboratory.co.jp/Front/indexe.html
> 
> ...


Maybe if for speaker use. I use a Pass Labs stack there though.


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## protoss (Apr 14, 2022)

Feliks audio Envy $7000
https://feliksaudio.pl/product/envy/

So far this is the best amp out there that supports 300B for headphones. Its simplistic and beautiful and it is *300B love.* Can drive Abyss TC and Susvara to anything. It is all most perfect. 
Might be my new Amp 
You can order any *custom wood *you want.... It is perfect.


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## ColSaulTigh

protoss said:


> Feliks audio Envy $7000
> https://feliksaudio.pl/product/envy/
> 
> So far this is the best amp out there that supports 300B for headphones. Its simplistic and beautiful and it is *300B love.* Can drive Abyss TC and Susvara to anything. It is all most perfect.
> ...


What criteria did you use to declare it "the best"?

Just curious...


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## protoss

ColSaulTigh said:


> What criteria did you use to declare it "the best"?
> 
> Just curious...


1. Balance XLR headphone inputs.
2. 300B inputs of course.
3. Custom wood design. I get to pick zebrawood or anything I want. Thats a win.
4. Powerful enough for Susvara ecth....
5. Simplistic design and less tubes with 300B. Normally I see a 300B with like 10 other tubes.
6. It has balance outputs. Normally I see a only RCA.
7. Price is somewhat fair. It is still pricy. But at least not over 10K
8. A company that is reputable in the tube amp spot.
9. it has a low/mid/high section
10. And again I like the look. It looks great and small and perfect for a desktop area.


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## helljudgement

protoss said:


> 6. It has balance outputs. Normally I see a only RCA.


I assume you meant *inputs *as most amps on the list do provide xlr output. Most tube amps are not balanced from end to end. Single ended tube amps that have balance inputs uses additional transformers like Jensen or Cinemag to connect balanced output to unbalanced amps. Having XLR input only serve to provide more input option and does nothing for the sound. The red october also comes with balance inputs if that's your criteria.



protoss said:


> 5. Simplistic design and less tubes with 300B. Normally I see a 300B with like 10 other tubes.


Most amps on the list don't use more than 4 tubes. The studio B for example also uses 4 tubes the same as the Envy. 

I've heard and enjoyed Feliks audio products before and do find that they made good products so if you like the Envy for it's design or whatever reasons do feel free to order one but at least from what I'm seeing there's nothing that made it head and shoulders above the competition.


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## protoss

@helljudgement 
What will you prefer over the Feliks? It is solid enough for me? 
Manley Labs – Neo-Classic 300B  looks great but now I want XLR for my headphones.


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## ColSaulTigh

helljudgement said:


> I assume you meant inputs as most amps on the list do provide xlr output. Most tube amps are not balanced from end to end. Single ended tube amps that have balance inputs uses additional transformers like Jensen or Cinemag to connect balanced output to unbalanced amps. Having XLR input only serve to provide more input option and does nothing for the sound. The *red october* also comes with balance inputs if that's your criteria.


What a beautiful amp!  I've never heard one, but aesthetically, it's gorgeous!



helljudgement said:


> Most amps on the list don't use more than 4 tubes. The studio B for example also uses 4 tubes the same as the Envy.
> 
> I've heard and enjoyed Feliks audio products before and do find that they made good products so if you like the Envy *for it's design* or whatever reasons do feel free to order one but at least from what I'm seeing there's nothing that made it head and shoulders above the competition.


I have to admit, that's what initially drew my attention to it.  I was starting to look outside my Woo Audio wheelhouse and came across the original posting and it caught my eye.  But I also understand that you buy an amplifier for it's AUDIO performance, with looks being secondary (while also somewhat important).  After all, you can't HEAR how pretty it looks, only how pretty it sounds...


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## helljudgement

protoss said:


> @helljudgement
> What will you prefer over the Feliks? It is solid enough for me?
> Manley Labs – Neo-Classic 300B  looks great but now I want XLR for my headphones.


What headphones are you using and what are you looking to enhance for your headphone? Like I said balance inputs alone does nothing to improve sound and most amps stated like the cayin and eddie current already have xlr *outputs* so its more important for you to state the sort of sound you are looking to achieve with your setup. The envy just got released and apart from a lucky few most have never heard it so I can’t say if it is good or bad but only that it doesn’t look that much different from the competition.


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## protoss (Apr 14, 2022)

@helljudgement

I agree overall what you are saying and thinking. I might get a couple of amps to balance everything out. The Cayin HA-300MK2,  Feliks  and little dot Y2.
But overall, I am basing my pick on the list I laid out above. Sound matters, but also features too.


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## protoss (Apr 15, 2022)

I think I went deep into the rabbit hole and discover something fascinating.

A 300B tube DAC.
Are there more 300B dacs?
https://shop.best300b.com/products/best300b-dac-by-lampizator

https://www.acuhorn.pl/acuhorn-R2RT.htm
https://www.acuhorn.pl/acuhorn-R2RXT.htm


----------



## protoss

4 300B balance R2R dac. $7500


----------



## LarsMan

helljudgement said:


> I assume you meant *inputs *as most amps on the list do provide xlr output. Most tube amps are not balanced from end to end. Single ended tube amps that have balance inputs uses additional transformers like Jensen or Cinemag to connect balanced output to unbalanced amps. Having XLR input only serve to provide more input option and does nothing for the sound. The red october also comes with balance inputs if that's your criteria.
> 
> 
> Most amps on the list don't use more than 4 tubes. The studio B for example also uses 4 tubes the same as the Envy.
> ...


Indeed - I've got one of those Studio B's. Great amp, too. Sounded very good with Utopia or VO's even with Gold Lions or JJ tubes (but too thin sounding for my Susvara), but when I replaced those with WE 300B's, THAT made all the difference. This drives my Susvaras like a champ now - plenty of bass, mids, impact, and dynamics. It's like Craig made a model that was above the Studio B.


----------



## protoss

I'm holding off with the Feliks Envy now. Re-evaluating other amps. 



LarsMan said:


> I've got one of those Studio B's


Is your amp with 2 300B tubes or is it one of the discontinued models? The website is kind of confusing? All models sold out and discontinued? 

I only see the Studio B with a upgrade to 300B tubes for $3500.


----------



## protoss (Apr 15, 2022)

Here is an interesting amp.
Western Electric 91E 300B added*


----------



## LarsMan

protoss said:


> I'm holding off with the Feliks Envy now. Re-evaluating other amps.
> 
> 
> Is your amp with 2 300B tubes or is it one of the discontinued models? The website is kind of confusing? All models sold out and discontinued?
> ...


The 'B' in 'Studio B' stood for '300B', so it originally was just for 2 300B tubes; he has since made it so you could specifiy either 300B or the other kind of tubes he was making available. It was about $3500 or so without any 300B tubes included when I bought mine.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

protoss said:


> Here is an interesting amp.
> Western Electric 91E 300B added*


I think that one is like Eleventy-billion dollars, isn't it?


----------



## LarsMan

protoss said:


> Here is an interesting amp.
> Western Electric 91E 300B added*


I've seen that - gorgeous looking amp, yeah?


----------



## helljudgement

LarsMan said:


> Indeed - I've got one of those Studio B's. Great amp, too. Sounded very good with Utopia or VO's even with Gold Lions or JJ tubes (but too thin sounding for my Susvara), but when I replaced those with WE 300B's, THAT made all the difference. This drives my Susvaras like a champ now - plenty of bass, mids, impact, and dynamics. It's like Craig made a model that was above the Studio B.


I might be tempted to try WE's new prod 300b in future but the price is absurd. I do agree the studio b is the most impressive amp I've heard period but not sure if it or any SET amps are really suited for inefficient planar like the Susvara though it do fine with D8k and LCD 2. I'm currently using JJs and linlai with my VO and Atrium. Ridiculous stage width and the slam with the Atriums especially is something else.


----------



## protoss (Apr 15, 2022)

ColSaulTigh said:


> I think that one is like Eleventy-billion dollars, isn't it?


From all the reports

"The Western Electric 91E is available for pre-order now starting at $14,999 for the black and gold models." If pre-order now you get a 10% off deal on the amp.

This amp is a fully loaded amplifer with BT capabilities, display screen, plus more. Expensive but better than the WA33, woo audio mono block price.


----------



## LarsMan

helljudgement said:


> I might be tempted to try WE's new prod 300b in future but the price is absurd. I do agree the studio b is the most impressive amp I've heard period but not sure if it or any SET amps are really suited for inefficient planar like the Susvara though it do fine with D8k and LCD 2. I'm currently using JJs and linlai with my VO and Atrium. Ridiculous stage width and the slam with the Atriums especially is something else.


To me the price was well worth it - I would have paid $1400 more for the next model up in the Eddie Current line, if there was such a thing. Not much comparison, in my opinion, between the JJ tubes and the WE ones.


----------



## protoss (Apr 15, 2022)

LarsMan said:


> The 'B' in 'Studio B' stood for '300B', so it originally was just for 2 300B tubes; he has since made it so you could specifiy either 300B or the other kind of tubes he was making available. It was about $3500 or so without any 300B tubes included when I bought mine.


They dont have a picture of this amp on their website?
I am assuming it is this?

$3500 with 300B tubes. This is pretty tempting.


----------



## LarsMan

protoss said:


> They dont have a picture of this amp on their website?
> I am assuming it is this?
> 
> $3500 with 300B tubes. This is pretty tempting.


Yuppers - that's it!! Looks like he's changed the volume knob, though, from what I've got. I really like the volume knob on mine and I even complimented Craig on it,  and he told me he spent a LOT of time trying different volume knobs.  I'm going to copy this picture and ask him if this is a newer or older volume knob..... Now you say it's WITH 300B tubes. Do you mean it uses 300B tubes or that it comes with them? Because he lets the buyer get their own 300B's - he'll include the other 2 tubes....


----------



## BournePerfect

LarsMan said:


> Indeed - I've got one of those Studio B's. Great amp, too. Sounded very good with Utopia or VO's even with Gold Lions or JJ tubes (but too thin sounding for my Susvara), but when I replaced those with WE 300B's, THAT made all the difference. This drives my Susvaras like a champ now - plenty of bass, mids, impact, and dynamics. It's like Craig made a model that was above the Studio B.



You might have just expedited my WE 300B purchase for my Studio B...although I'm currently perfectly content with the EML meshes I have.


----------



## BournePerfect

protoss said:


> They dont have a picture of this amp on their website?
> I am assuming it is this?
> 
> $3500 with 300B tubes. This is pretty tempting.



That's what I'll be plugging my new ESL R10s into tonight.


----------



## protoss

LarsMan said:


> Now you say it's WITH 300B tubes. Do you mean it uses 300B tubes or that it comes with them? Because he lets the buyer get their own 300B's - he'll include the other 2 tubes....


I meant it is design to handle 300B tubes. And also I am assuming it comes with 300B tubes as most amps do supply them with purchase. 

Are you saying that Eddie will not ship 300B tubes with the amp? That's kind of werid? Unless this was the best way to cut down cost.


----------



## protoss

BournePerfect said:


> That's what I'll be plugging my new ESL R10s into tonight.


You have the Eddie Current B? Nice. Do the full R10 review with them.


----------



## BournePerfect

EC does NOT ship with the 300Bs, correct. The other tubes come with it though-and yes, to cut down on costs. Makes sense to me too since the costs of 300Bs are all over the place, and people gotta buy em anyway.


----------



## protoss

Tube heaven 😍


----------



## protoss

It is getting hard to find the remaining 300B Headphone tube amps. 

In the meantime here is a nice looking Non-300B tube headphone amp. 

TK One Head Vacuum Tube Headphone Amplifier (TK56857ES-I)


----------



## LarsMan

protoss said:


> I meant it is design to handle 300B tubes. And also I am assuming it comes with 300B tubes as most amps do supply them with purchase.
> 
> Are you saying that Eddie will not ship 300B tubes with the amp? That's kind of werid? Unless this was the best way to cut down cost.


No - 300B tubes are a lot more expensive than most; the cheapest are Gold Lions at about $300/pair... And while I also used to think it was Eddie, the amp builder's name is Craig - I'm ignorant of electronics, but there's such a thing as an 'eddy current'.... He's more than happy to talk to you about recommendations and where you can get them...


----------



## protoss

I just emailed "eddiecurrent"

Asked a bunch of question. The main question was if the Studio B will be their last product before they permanently close up shop.

If they say yes, the Studio B will be a legendary item down the road.



LarsMan said:


> the cheapest are Gold Lions at about $300/pair.


You will hate this  - https://www.thetubestore.com/shuguang-300b-98


----------



## BournePerfect

It is their last amp, they did close up shop over a year ago, and Craig is basically using the last of his inventory/transformers for a final run, building them from his home essentially. At least that was the story a year ago when I got mine. Apparently, they are doing another run now, as I spoke to Craig's wife a couple months ago and was tempted to get a 2a3 version as well, but declined. That run is still on afaik. Let us know what you hear-you can't go wrong with the Studio B imo.


----------



## LarsMan

protoss said:


> I just emailed "eddiecurrent"
> 
> Asked a bunch of question. The main question was if the Studio B will be their last product before they permanently close up shop.
> 
> ...


I've got a pair of Western Electrics at $1400/pair and totally worth it to me, so naa, no hatred here!


----------



## bobmysterious (Apr 15, 2022)

There is a Studio B in your future.  Come to the dark side… We have cookies.


----------



## protoss

Now I'm jealous. Are they NOS Western Electrics?

It is amazing how expensive Western Electrics 300B tubes are!!

A 1930 pair selling for $19,000 - NOS Western Electric Engraved Base 300B, Black Plate, Late 1930's
A 1960 pair selling for $10,000 - NOS Western Electric 300B, Black Plate, 1961, Matched Pair

It is insane.


----------



## protoss

bobmysterious said:


> We have cookies.


I like cookies. Are they Super-Chunk White Chocolate Macadamia Nut supper delicious version III type?


----------



## bobmysterious

If that’s your mojo… We aim to please!


----------



## LarsMan

protoss said:


> Now I'm jealous. Are they NOS Western Electrics?
> 
> It is amazing how expensive Western Electrics 300B tubes are!!
> 
> ...


No, these are new ones from their new factory in Georgia (the state, not the country) - you should go to their website and read about it - it's pretty fascinating!


----------



## helljudgement

BournePerfect said:


> That's what I'll be plugging my new ESL R10s into tonight.


Preference aside I've not heard a single dynamic driver that falls flat when driven by SET amps and EC is amongst the very best SET. Do let us know how it pairs.


----------



## leftside (Apr 15, 2022)

Here's another. Glenn 300B. Glenn used to be a custom amp builder on here, but hasn't made any new amps in a long time. He told me he made 12 of these.


----------



## BournePerfect

Absolutely. Gonna give em some head time for a couple days first though.


----------



## leftside

paradoxper said:


> I was being lazy. LOL
> 
> I ended up with a Cabernet DHT but I'll compare to a Neo later down the line.


Is that the Supratek Cabernet? I have the Cortese LCR. Mick makes great preamps.


----------



## leftside

protoss said:


> I think I went deep into the rabbit hole and discover something fascinating.
> 
> A 300B tube DAC.
> Are there more 300B dacs?


https://6moons.com/audioreviews2/lampizator4/2.html


----------



## paradoxper

leftside said:


> Is that the Supratek Cabernet? I have the Cortese LCR. Mick makes great preamps.


It is. Mick is fantastic.


----------



## protoss

leftside said:


> Glenn used to be a custom amp builder


https://www.trafomaticaudio.com/products/glenn/  - I am assuming this is another company with the same name?


----------



## protoss

Shout out to Wavac Audio. I like the look of their stuff. 
https://www.wavac-audio.jp/poweramp_e.shtml

MD-300Bm using 2 300B Tubes. - https://www.wavac-audio.jp/md300bm_e.shtml




Preamplifier - https://www.wavac-audio.jp/pr-x2_e.shtml


----------



## paradoxper

protoss said:


> https://www.trafomaticaudio.com/products/glenn/  - I am assuming this is another company with the same name?


Glenn was a Head-Fi builder whom built amps. Trafomatic is entirely different.


----------



## protoss

Amare Musica has some great simplistic designs for their amps. Like what this company did with their products.

https://amaremusica.com.pl/entropy-quantum/


----------



## leftside

protoss said:


> https://www.trafomaticaudio.com/products/glenn/  - I am assuming this is another company with the same name?


Well look at that. Yes totally different company. I'll post that link over on the Glenn thread on here.


----------



## protoss

leftside said:


> Glenn thread


I'll be pissed if someone stole my name tag.


----------



## protoss

This thread got my eyes open to over 100s of amps now. Blown away by about 50 of them! 

Came across "Air Tight" and their legendary history. 

Air TIght ATM-2 Plus Stereo Power Amplifier $21,500
This model is a rethinking of their original amp from the 1988. Good stuff. To expensive sadly 





ATM-300R (stereo power ampliﬁer) $18,000 with *300B TUBES


*


----------



## ThanatosVI

Great thread. I'm late to the Party.

Woo Wa33 only takes the 2.5V 300B tubes (,i.e. from Sophia Electric)

For speakers there are the Octave Jubilee 300B Monoblocks (70k 💀)

I will keep an eye out on how things develop.
Since nearly all KT120/KT150 tubes are from russia, Octave might switch their designs to 300B) in semi Distant future


----------



## protoss (Apr 17, 2022)

Edited*
Welcome, at this stage it is getting extremely hard to find 300B headphone amps. I might of got* 90% *of them.
Still looking thou.


----------



## protoss

@ThanatosVI 

Wait? The WA33 takes 300B?? I do not see it in the spec sheets?


----------



## ThanatosVI

protoss said:


> Added*
> 
> Welcome, at this stage it is getting extremely hard to find 300B headphone amps. I might of got* 90% *of them.
> Still looking thou.


I did a similar search few months ago.
It seems like you caught all the amps I found back then.

Pricings have changed significantly though.
The Audion Silver Night did cost 5000 like a year ago, now it's 7000.

A few "corrections" for your list.
The Woo Wa 5 LE is the headphone version of the Wa5 and a few grand cheaper. If you want to list only headphone amps the LE Version fits better. 
The 300B Electrostatic amp is the 3ES not the Wa33 (which is a 2A3 amp for dyvamic/planars, it can take 2.5V 300Bs though)

If you still want to add speaker 300B amps, Feliks Audio has the Arioso 300B speaker amp.

As of high quality 300B tubes there are also the german ELROG 300B tubes.
https://www.elrog.com/products/

They don't look as nice as most 300B tubes but are said to sound fantastic


----------



## ThanatosVI

protoss said:


> @ThanatosVI
> 
> Wait? The WA33 takes 300B?? I do not see it in the spec sheets?


Only 2.5V 300B like
https://sophiaelectric.com/collecti...ic-classic-300b-2-5v-tubes-for-2a3-amplifiers

Or 300B and 2A3 hybrids like
https://wooaudio.com/tubes/psvane-wr2a3-quad


----------



## protoss (Apr 17, 2022)

ThanatosVI said:


> speaker 300B amps


There is no need because there are other forums and thousands of speaker amps to name. If I find it unique like I did in the last page I might place it for fun.

If we focus strictly on headphones amps. It gets more interesting and harder to find.


ThanatosVI said:


> Only 2.5V 300B like
> https://sophiaelectric.com/collecti...ic-classic-300b-2-5v-tubes-for-2a3-amplifiers


Fascinating, so these tubes will work on the WA33.


----------



## helljudgement

ThanatosVI said:


> Woo Wa33 only takes the 2.5V 300B tubes (,i.e. from Sophia Electric)


Let's not confuse the situation by adding 2.5v variants of 300b tubes. Those tubes are created for use natively with 2a3 tube amps and can't actually be used with classic 300b amps which is the subject of this topic.


----------



## BournePerfect

Depends on plate voltage, I'm currently running 2.5V EML meshes in my Studio B, but of course the classic 300Bs work just fine too. The Studio doesn't run the tubes hard at all either, seeing how it's only 4wpc SET.


----------



## protoss

BournePerfect said:


> The Studio doesn't run the tubes hard


That's unfortunate. So, we wont get the full potential of the tubes using the Studio B.


----------



## helljudgement

protoss said:


> That's unfortunate. So, we wont get the full potential of the tubes using the Studio B.


How did you even come to that conclusion? Stressing the tubes more than necessary won't lead to better sound.

Running the tubes efficiently is something *ALL *reputable amp makers strife to do and is key to optimizing the tube's lifespan. Donald from DNA and Craig from Eddie Current ensures efficient operation with all their current amp line up and both makes some of the best tube amps around.


----------



## kvik

Wolf Ear Makoyi isn’t 300B (AFAIK)


----------



## protoss

helljudgement said:


> Stressing the tubes


I was thinking more about "load?" Read somewhere that it is better. Talked about scaling and stuff. Can't find the article atm.


----------



## LarsMan

protoss said:


> That's unfortunate. So, we wont get the full potential of the tubes using the Studio B.


I'm not getting the full potential from the 300B tubes in my Studio B? Couldn't prove it by me. 
Maybe you should check with Craig, who builds the amps, to see if that's true.


----------



## protoss

LarsMan said:


> Craig, who builds the amps, to see if that's true.


I'm still waiting for his email response 😆

I'll chat with him if he responds?


----------



## LarsMan

protoss said:


> I'm still waiting for his email response 😆
> 
> I'll chat with him if he responds?


He is a very nice fellow and you'd likely enjoy chatting with him!


----------



## BournePerfect

The OPT s are the primary sound determiner in this amp anyway, but the 300Bs can certainly tweak the sound a bit, as well as the other tubes. And running tubes hard has little to do with anything, other than power or tube life primarily. I'd much prefer a longer tube lifespan, and great sound. Plenty of speakers around where 4 watts is more than enough too, and with headphones it'll power nearly anything. Also, not all watts are created equal, but I'll leave it there for now.


----------



## LarsMan

BournePerfect said:


> The OPT s are the primary sound determiner in this amp anyway, but the 300Bs can certainly tweak the sound a bit, as well as the other tubes. And running tubes hard has little to do with anything, other than power or tube life primarily. I'd much prefer a longer tube lifespan, and great sound. Plenty of speakers around where 4 watts is more than enough too, and with headphones it'll power nearly anything. Also, not all watts are created equal, but I'll leave it there for now.


Upgrading from JJ to WE 300B did more than 'tweak the sound a bit'!   
Went from _'This ain't gonna cut it for driving Susvara - all thin sounding'_ to '_Yow! This is my Susvara amp for SURE!_'.


----------



## m-i-c-k-e-y

Original OPA 3A - 300B


----------



## protoss

m-i-c-k-e-y said:


> Original OPA 3A - 300B



Nice. Great find. Added*


----------



## protoss (Apr 17, 2022)

Found this, it is getting very hard to find the last remaining amps.

Thivanlabs 300B single ended amp $6500


----------



## BournePerfect

LarsMan said:


> Upgrading from JJ to WE 300B did more than 'tweak the sound a bit'!
> Went from _'This ain't gonna cut it for driving Susvara - all thin sounding'_ to '_Yow! This is my Susvara amp for SURE!_'.


Good to hear ha...I basically went straight to the EMLs before comparing against some cheap EH's I had at the time. Plus nothing was burned in, and I was still coming to terms the sound at that time. Great to hear the WE's provide an appreciable difference, because that's exactly what I'll be buying next, now that I've lived with the EMLs for a while and know the sound I'm getting. Crazy to think that the Susvara's are driven properly with the Studio/WE300B combo, but doesn't shock me either. I remember many claiming the old ECBA and ZDSE wouldn't drive certain loads adequately (on paper), until of course they tried it. Again not all watts or mW are created equal...glad to know you're loving the Studio as well. 

Btw did you get the WE's from GE directly, or from Woo, or where? And I assume you have the most recent reissues dating back a year or two, right.


----------



## LarsMan

BournePerfect said:


> Good to hear ha...I basically went straight to the EMLs before comparing against some cheap EH's I had at the time. Plus nothing was burned in, and I was still coming to terms the sound at that time. Great to hear the WE's provide an appreciable difference, because that's exactly what I'll be buying next, now that I've lived with the EMLs for a while and know the sound I'm getting. Crazy to think that the Susvara's are driven properly with the Studio/WE300B combo, but doesn't shock me either. I remember many claiming the old ECBA and ZDSE wouldn't drive certain loads adequately (on paper), until of course they tried it. Again not all watts or mW are created equal...glad to know you're loving the Studio as well.
> 
> Btw did you get the WE's from GE directly, or from Woo, or where? And I assume you have the most recent reissues dating back a year or two, right.


Indeed - I was very pleasantly surprised by the difference they made; I would not have thought it possible. I got these from Woo Audio, and these are brand-new ones from the Western Electric plant in Georgia, so these would be newer than 2 years, I think...


----------



## BournePerfect

LarsMan said:


> Indeed - I was very pleasantly surprised by the difference they made; I would not have thought it possible. I got these from Woo Audio, and these are brand-new ones from the Western Electric plant in Georgia, so these would be newer than 2 years, I think...


Thanks, just wondering who to order from, and if it makes any difference, especially as Woo is an authorized dealer. Was the turnaround time pretty quick from Woo btw?


----------



## m-i-c-k-e-y

Ultrasonic Studios Telemachus


----------



## cddc

protoss said:


> I am trying to compile a full list of all 300B TUBE Headphone amplifiers.
> Am I missing top-tier amps with 300B tube inputs?
> 
> Headphone amplifiers that takes *300B TUBES. *
> ...





Prepare to spend more on tubes than on amps if you really want tube rolling on those babies...


----------



## LarsMan

BournePerfect said:


> Thanks, just wondering who to order from, and if it makes any difference, especially as Woo is an authorized dealer. Was the turnaround time pretty quick from Woo btw?


Very quick; I ordered from Woo because they owed me a discount from something else, so I got a couple of hundred bucks off...


----------



## BournePerfect (Apr 17, 2022)

cddc said:


> Prepare to spend more on tubes than on amps if you really want tube rolling on those babies...


Or buy once, buy right with the WE reissues (based on most reports out there).  And if they actually do last up to 40k hours or so, the $1500/pair should probably be considered a bargain. And unless the WE absolutely mops the floor with my EML meshes, I plan on keeping both for different flavors, we'll see. Doesn't hurt that the EMLs are also speculated to run 20k+ hours themselves. Since the Studio isn't running these hard at all, I expect a couple pairs of long lasting tubes like these should last a lifetime.


----------



## m-i-c-k-e-y

Great page w/ list of tube manufacturers: http://crasno.ca/articles/vacuumtubemans.htm

Other 300B tubes not still on list:

JJ Electronic
Shuguang 300B
TJ Full Music
European Audio Team (E.A.T.) 300B


----------



## Haidar

A few more 300B headphone amps:

Raphaelite CK300
Lyele Audio 300B Tube Preamp
Sunbuck 6SN7 6SL7 274B 300B
Meixing MC300EAR
Yaqin MS-500B
Yaqin MS-300C


----------



## protoss (Apr 17, 2022)

Ultrasonic Studios Telemachus added*

SHUGUANG 300B-98 $130
https://www.thetubestore.com/shuguang-300b-98

Must be the cheapest 300B out there.


----------



## LarsMan

protoss said:


> Ultrasonic Studios Telemachus added*
> 
> SHUGUANG 300B-98 $130
> https://www.thetubestore.com/shuguang-300b-98
> ...


I've not seen one for less. Might be good, I don't know. 

But seems to me that if you're going with tube amps with 300B tubes, you probably wouldn't want to get the very cheapest you could find unless it's as a stop-gap measure till you upgrade to something better. But I would not suggest judging the amp while using those tubes.... 

You don't need to go up to WE or that Japanese one that's twice as much as WE, there are plenty of good tubes that cost less than those but would be much better than the very cheapest. I just got the WE because I didn't want to waste a lot of time tube rolling - that's not my thing; I have no need to explore further than the WE's. I was prepared to spend more for an amp than the Eddie Current cost, so it's all good....


----------



## protoss

ADDED*

Raphaelite CK300 Split $3000
Lyele Audio 300B $1200
Meixing MC300EAR updated with XLR headphone $2700
YAQIN MS-300C $1200


----------



## protoss

LarsMan said:


> you probably wouldn't want to get the very cheapest


You are right. But it is great to have these options for others and me too. 

I have 2 Sophia electric tubes sitting on my shelves. So, most likely Ill use them first. https://sophiaelectric.com/collections/vacuum-tubes/products/pages-se-princess-300b


----------



## paradoxper

LarsMan said:


> I've not seen one for less. Might be good, I don't know.
> 
> But seems to me that if you're going with tube amps with 300B tubes, you probably wouldn't want to get the very cheapest you could find unless it's as a stop-gap measure till you upgrade to something better. But I would not suggest judging the amp while using those tubes....
> 
> You don't need to go up to WE or that Japanese one that's twice as much as WE, there are plenty of good tubes that cost less than those but would be much better than the very cheapest. I just got the WE because I didn't want to waste a lot of time tube rolling - that's not my thing; I have no need to explore further than the WE's. I was prepared to spend more for an amp than the Eddie Current cost, so it's all good....


You will want to avoid the cheap rub. However, scaling EML to WE/Takatsuki/Sophia/ACME, etc, you will accordingly see a nominal performance boost, they all perform up to each other. Splitting your preference, can, at times, cost you a buck, and at others, save you a buck. the 300B is great, if your amp can utilize 45/2A3 you can afford more flexibility.

Generally recommend EML. WE offers a little listening magic though for that desired softer sound.


----------



## LarsMan

paradoxper said:


> You will want to avoid the cheap rub. However, scaling EML to WE/Takatsuki/Sophia/ACME, etc, you will accordingly see a nominal performance boost, they all perform up to each other. Splitting your preference, can, at times, cost you a buck, and at others, save you a buck. the 300B is great, if your amp can utilize 45/2A3 you can afford more flexibility.
> 
> Generally recommend EML. WE offers a little listening magic though for that desired softer sound.


I've got a DNA Stratus coming by late Summer (I hope), and I believe that uses 2A3, unless I'm misremembering....


----------



## protoss (Apr 17, 2022)

paradoxper said:


> You will want to avoid the cheap rub


Correct.

Technically the best of the best tubes ---> WE/Takatsuki/Sophia/ACME

On a budget maybe the;
Linlai™ Global E-300B vacuum tubes
Ps Vane tubes 300B
Genalex Gold Lion PX300B


----------



## LarsMan

protoss said:


> Correct.
> 
> Technically the best of the best tubes ---> WE/Takatsuki/Sophia/ACME
> 
> ...


I have heard some very good things about the Linlai tubes...


----------



## protoss

CAYIN HA-300 MK2 comes with 2 Gold Lion 300B tubes.

People like the tubes - https://www.thetubestore.com/genalex-gold-lion-px-300b


----------



## m-i-c-k-e-y

If you could find the red tube version, its their cheapest.



protoss said:


> Ultrasonic Studios Telemachus added*
> 
> SHUGUANG 300B-98 $130
> https://www.thetubestore.com/shuguang-300b-98
> ...


----------



## protoss (Apr 17, 2022)

@m-i-c-k-e-y
The red looks nice too but most of those sites are so shady. Not a fan of aliexpress.


----------



## protoss (Apr 17, 2022)

Probably the best tube to start with before spending thousands of dollars for others.
https://sophiaelectric.com/collections/vacuum-tubes/products/pages-se-princess-300b

Slowly upgrade to this - https://sophiaelectric.com/collections/tubes-for-300b-amplifiers/products/pages-se-classic-300b
or this - https://sophiaelectric.com/collecti...ucts/sophia-electric-globe-classic-300b-tubes


Next step
https://tricellenterprises.com/product/western-electric-300b/

And then finally move onto Takatsuki https://www.partsconnexion.com/TSUKI-81942.html


----------



## protoss

LarsMan said:


> I've got a DNA Stratus coming by late Summer


Nice. What made you decide to get this amp?


----------



## m-i-c-k-e-y (Apr 17, 2022)

Probably most expensive current production is Elrog's Molybdenum Ed. ER300B-Mo
Thomas Mayer (Elrog's current owner) has another variant w/c is the TM-300B. A 300B w/ a 46 sound. Its only available so far as a tube offering on Tim's amps.
If it will be available mainstream, will surely cmmand a more higher price.


----------



## protoss

m-i-c-k-e-y said:


> Probably most expensive current production is Elrog's Molybdenum Ed. ER300B-Mo


Review of this tube. https://www.stereonet.com/uk/reviews/elrog-er300b-vacuum-tube-review
It's tall!


----------



## LarsMan

protoss said:


> Nice. What made you decide to get this amp?


I've heard nothing but great things about Donald North's amps, so I wanted to get one for myself!


----------



## LarsMan

protoss said:


> CAYIN HA-300 MK2 comes with 2 Gold Lion 300B tubes.
> 
> People like the tubes - https://www.thetubestore.com/genalex-gold-lion-px-300b


I liked the Gold Lions until I replaced them with JJ's for about the same price (JJ 300B were out of stock everywhere when I was ready to buy). Then I liked the JJ's until I replaced them with the WE's. I'm stopping the replacement now.


----------



## Whitigir (Apr 17, 2022)

protoss said:


> Feliks audio Envy $7000
> https://feliksaudio.pl/product/envy/
> 
> So far this is the best amp out there that supports 300B for headphones. Its simplistic and beautiful and it is *300B love.* Can drive Abyss TC and Susvara to anything. It is all most perfect.
> ...


8W max is on par with Elekit, but the wood chassis is beautiful for sure 



LarsMan said:


> I liked the Gold Lions until I replaced them with JJ's for about the same price (JJ 300B were out of stock everywhere when I was ready to buy). Then I liked the JJ's until I replaced them with the WE's. I'm stopping the replacement now.



Agreed! WE-300B is the king


----------



## bobmysterious

I'd like to upgrade to the Western Electric's as well.  Curious as to what kind, and how substantial the differences would be with my current EML Mesh plates in the Studio B.


----------



## LarsMan

protoss said:


> Correct on website its states:
> 
> "Eddie Current Announces New Run of  Studio B in* 300B* OR 2A3 Version"
> 
> ...


Indeed - when I got mine a few years ago, it was only available with 300B, but apparently there was enough demand for 2A3 ones that he's got a variation for those, too. 
BTW, this is a really cool thread - thanks for starting it!


----------



## bobmysterious

I’d love to hear a 2A3 version, would be an interesting comparison with the 300b Studio B.


----------



## protoss (Apr 17, 2022)

WE 300B Vacuum Tube $1500 a pair.
https://www.westernelectric.com/300b

With a 5 year warranty! I never seen a 5 year warranty before on a tube? This sounds like a great deal.

I am assuming these tubes can last for about 10 years or more? 50K hours right?


----------



## protoss (Apr 17, 2022)

Shopia electirc only gives 1 year warranty!!
https://sophiaelectric.com/collecti...royal-princess-300b-tubes-for-300b-amplifiers

I'm blown away by WE warranty now, because of this I will only *recommend Western Electric tubes*


----------



## protoss

I'm bad at math here.

Example,

10 hours of tube use each day for 30 days = 300 x 1 year = 3600 x 10 years = 36,000 hours

Western Electric states their tubes are good for 40,000 hours. This is not a bad investment   👍


----------



## LarsMan

protoss said:


> WE 300B Vacuum Tube $1500 a pair.
> https://www.westernelectric.com/300b
> 
> With a 5 year warranty! I never seen a 5 year warranty before on a tube? This sounds like a great deal.
> ...


The thing is, unlike a lot of stuff you buy, you don't automatically get the warranty at purchase; you have to physically fill in a warranty form that comes with each tube and then mail it in to WE. If you don't do that, you don't get the 5-year warranty...


----------



## ColSaulTigh (Apr 17, 2022)

protoss said:


> I'm bad at math here.
> 
> Example,
> 
> ...


If we're being precise, it'd be 3,650 hours (not counting a leap year). x 10 = 36,500 hours (plus the additional 30 for the apx. 3 leap year days in a given 10 year cycle).


----------



## LarsMan

protoss said:


> Shopia electirc only gives 1 year warranty!!
> https://sophiaelectric.com/collecti...royal-princess-300b-tubes-for-300b-amplifiers
> 
> I'm blown away by WE warranty now. Because of this I will only *recommend Western Electric tubes*


Not too many people will be able to afford your recommendations, then!


----------



## protoss (Apr 17, 2022)

ColSaulTigh said:


> If we're being precise, it'd be 3,650 hours (not counting a leap year). x 10 = 36,500 hours (plus the additional 30 for the apx. 3 leap year days in a given 10 year cycle).


🤣

It is great to know that these tubes technically can last a person life time. Days off, SS amps usage, vacations, and other amps usage.




LarsMan said:


> Not too many people will be able to afford your recommendations, then!


Yeah it's unfair. That is why I tried to add to the list affordable amps and tubes for everyone's taste and wallets.


----------



## BournePerfect

bobmysterious said:


> I'd like to upgrade to the Western Electric's as well.  Curious as to what kind, and how substantial the differences would be with my current EML Mesh plates in the Studio B.


Jinx!


----------



## bobmysterious

Sounds like you’re closer to doing it than I am.  You ok being the space monkey we put on the Western Electric rocket to test the two out? 😂


----------



## Whitigir

LarsMan said:


> The thing is, unlike a lot of stuff you buy, you don't automatically get the warranty at purchase; you have to physically fill in a warranty form that comes with each tube and then mail it in to WE. If you don't do that, you don't get the 5-year warranty...


That is true, but it isn’t about the filling into the form…it is about purchasing from an authorized dealer to get the “extended 5 years warranty” and you will have to do that within 14 days from the day of receiving the tubes

If you have purchased it the right way and from authorized dealers, this experiences is actually a luxury.  Since when was the last time That you will need to fill out any form with inks and on beautiful papers ? Looking for the serial numbers and writing in all the details and mailing it out ? I have done all that and it was actually an amazing feeling

However, these tubes can last forever, but once they are gone, they may damage the amplifier as well.  It depends on the amp, some is easier to trace down and fix than others.  But for even a DIY like me, I try to prevent it as much as possible.  Hence the reason I chose to go with Elekit TU-8900.  Not only that it will auto bias and adjusting even the plate voltages between 2A3 and 300B, but it also have auto protection circuits as well.  So, if something goes wrong, at least my house wouldn’t be burned down when I am in the toilet or run for an errand.  Tubes amp usually go bad when you are not presented and are around it to turn it off…LOL!  That feelings give me anxiety, and hence I rather always use Solid States.  

At least at the moment, the Elekit is a fool proof 2A3/300B amp and also has Non Negative Feedback features as well


----------



## BournePerfect

bobmysterious said:


> Sounds like you’re closer to doing it than I am.  You ok being the space monkey we put on the Western Electric rocket to test the two out? 😂


Probably ha. It's just that I'm sooo content with my current rig I'm not feeling rushed. But otoh I've always known 100% I'm getting the WE's at some point, so...


----------



## bobmysterious

Dude, I’m in the same boat.  I know they’re waiting in the wings, but haven’t been in too much of a hurry to plug them in.  The system sounds excellent right now, so I’m pretty pleased.


----------



## BournePerfect

I haven't heard the VCs or the Utopias yet, but I would imagine you're enjoying similar bliss as me ha. Tends to be a trait of EC owners: we're just enjoying the music! But I'll certainly keep you posted once I grab the WE's-might be SOON.


----------



## bobmysterious

You’re so right.  Occasionally I listen to the gear, but I’m really listening to the music more than with prior iterations of the rig.


----------



## protoss

Whitigir said:


> tubes can last forever, but once they are gone, they may damage the amplifier as well. It depends on the amp, some is easier to trace down and fix than others. But for even a DIY like me, I try to prevent it as much as possible. Hence the reason I chose to go with Elekit TU-8900. Not only that it will auto bias and adjusting even the plate voltages between 2A3 and 300B, but it also have auto protection circuits as well.


Is not the main cause for amp damage installing tubes improperly, pin damage, and using the wrong tubes on the wrong amps?

Don't all modern tube amps, 2020 and beyond, have circuit protection installed, auto-bias, and an adjusting mechanism? If not, which amps are hazardous that we can point out to stay clear away?


----------



## helljudgement

BournePerfect said:


> I haven't heard the VCs or the Utopias yet, but I would imagine you're enjoying similar bliss as me ha. Tends to be a trait of EC owners: we're just enjoying the music!


I've done plenty of listening with VO, Atriums and Utopia on the Studio B and it really works wonders with any dynamic driver headphones and barring the DNA amps which have very different voicing, the Studio B is as good as it gets. I still get curious with the Studio(Tribute) and DNA Stellaris but I'm pretty much set on my front end sources with only occasional headphone swap.


----------



## BournePerfect

helljudgement said:


> I've done plenty of listening with VO, Atriums and Utopia on the Studio B and it really works wonders with any dynamic driver headphones and barring the DNA amps which have very different voicing, the Studio B is as good as it gets. I still get curious with the Studio(Tribute) and DNA Stellaris but I'm pretty much set on my front end sources with only occasional headphone swap.



I hear ya on all fronts. I probably would've bought the Utopia 15 times by now if it weren't for the tiny ss everyone talks about-and I'm a soundstage junkie. And of course I'm sure the Studio helps a lot in that regard, but I doubt it can't spin gold from hay either in that respect. I as well was interested in the Stellaris at one point-but people I trust say it's more a different flavor than the Studio B, than a true upgrade on the technical front. Always been curious of the DNA house sound though, and if anything I might try a Starlett one day. Right now I'm legit 100% satisfied with my rig, and that's not an easy place to get to!


----------



## vcoheda

i used to own an eddie current balancing act, which is a 300B tube headphone amp.


----------



## pippen99

The WA33 will accept 300B 2.5v tubes.  Woo does not recommend this path but several members including myself have used them.  Success has depended on the manufacturer used.


----------



## LarsMan

BournePerfect said:


> I hear ya on all fronts. I probably would've bought the Utopia 15 times by now if it weren't for the tiny ss everyone talks about-and I'm a soundstage junkie. And of course I'm sure the Studio helps a lot in that regard, but I doubt it can't spin gold from hay either in that respect. I as well was interested in the Stellaris at one point-but people I trust say it's more a different flavor than the Studio B, than a true upgrade on the technical front. Always been curious of the DNA house sound though, and if anything I might try a Starlett one day. Right now I'm legit 100% satisfied with my rig, and that's not an easy place to get to!


If you're a (wide) soundstage junkie, the Utopias might indeed not be for you, though if you regard depth as part of soundstage, it does that better than most. But I have to say that with the right tubes on the EC Studio B, the Utopia's wide soundstage does not sound at all 'tiny' to me, though they won't challenge an 800-S or even Susvara.


----------



## BournePerfect (Apr 18, 2022)

Got it...but I gotta admit these ESL ES-R10s are quickly making me *not care about the other TOTLs at this point. And still LOVE my AD2000 from the B, totally incredible. Now for the WE tubes, sigh.


----------



## protoss (Apr 18, 2022)

BournePerfect said:


> these ESL ES-R10s are quickly making me care about the other TOTLs at this point.


Why? The ES-R10 is based off a old dynamic technology that was created from 1985-89. All these new TOTL headphones should be ashamed of themselves that they can not revolutionize the headphone space.

Not many people know this. *Headphone technology has be in a stalemate from the 1970s.* Only Amps and Dacs have improved.

Heck, some people will pay 20K for a 1930s 300B Western Electric tube. (sold) <-- https://tubedepot.com/products/west...ase-300b-black-plate-late-1930-s-matched-pair


----------



## ColSaulTigh

protoss said:


> Heck, some people will pay 20K for a 1930s 300B Western Electric tube. (sold) <-- https://tubedepot.com/products/west...ase-300b-black-plate-late-1930-s-matched-pair


To be fair, it is for a MATCHED PAIR of 1930's WE300B's.  Also, it says they're not for sale, not that they were sold....he could be hoarding them until they're worth 6 figures...


----------



## protoss

ColSaulTigh said:


> To be fair, it is for a MATCHED PAIR of 1930's WE300B's.  Also, it says they're not for sale, not that they were sold....he could be hoarding them until they're worth 6 figures...


----------



## protoss

pippen99 said:


> The WA33 will accept 300B 2.5v tubes.  Woo does not recommend this path but several members including myself have used them.  Success has depended on the manufacturer used.


This seems dangerous. Why risk it?


----------



## ThanatosVI

protoss said:


> This seems dangerous. Why risk it?


They are identical to 2A3 in terms of electrical parameters. It's not more dangerous than using 2A3 tubes


----------



## ThanatosVI

protoss said:


> Not many people know this. *Headphone technology has be in a stalemate from the 1970s.* Only Amps and Dacs have improved.


I've often read that the other way round. 
That planars and headphone technology improved significantly, while DACs and amps are essentially the same as decades ago.

Personally I think that both improved noteably but the stuff decades ago Was already good enough that you could enjoy sonic bliss


----------



## jonathan c

ThanatosVI said:


> I've often read that the other way round.
> That planars and headphone technology improved significantly, while DACs and amps are essentially the same as decades ago.
> 
> Personally I think that both improved noteably but the stuff decades ago Was already good enough that you could enjoy sonic bliss


If audio at large had stayed with and developed further tube / circuitry, imagine the SQ that might have been…🥲🥲☁️☁️…


----------



## protoss

ThanatosVI said:


> while DACs and amps are essentially the same as decades ago.


Oh no, we have science to prove this right. Love or hate, "Audio Science review" is proving that amps and dacs has greatly improved from the 2000s.


----------



## LarsMan

protoss said:


> Why? The ES-R10 is based off a old dynamic technology that was created from 1985-89. All these new TOTL headphones should be ashamed of themselves that they can not revolutionize the headphone space.
> 
> Not many people know this. *Headphone technology has be in a stalemate from the 1970s.* Only Amps and Dacs have improved.
> 
> Heck, some people will pay 20K for a 1930s 300B Western Electric tube. (sold) <-- https://tubedepot.com/products/west...ase-300b-black-plate-late-1930-s-matched-pair


I didn't know that. I didn't realize that headphone technology like Susvara and Abyss have been around since the 1970's. Guess I learn something new every day!


----------



## LarsMan

protoss said:


> Oh no, we have science to prove this right. Love or hate, "Audio Science review" is proving that amps and dacs has greatly improved from the 2000s.


Audio Science Review would likely say that a Topping is an improvement over my Eddie Current. Who cares how it sounds - just look at the measurements!    They might also say that a Topping DAC is an improvement on my Holo May....


----------



## ThanatosVI

LarsMan said:


> I didn't know that. I didn't realize that headphone technology like Susvara and Abyss have been around since the 1970's. Guess I learn something new every day!


They have. One of the first planar magnetic headphones ever Was the Fostex T50v0 from 1974.

Possibly there were others even earlier


----------



## LarsMan

ThanatosVI said:


> They have. One of the first planar magnetic headphones ever Was the Fostex T50v0 from 1974.
> 
> Possibly there were others even earlier


But 'technology' would encompass more than just 'dynamic' vs 'planar magnetic', wouldn't it?


----------



## jonathan c

LarsMan said:


> Audio Science Review would likely say that a Topping is an improvement over my Eddie Current. Who cares how it sounds - just look at the measurements!    They might also say that a Topping DAC is an improvement on my Holo May....


From an earlier post in a different thread:


----------



## protoss (Apr 18, 2022)

LarsMan said:


> I didn't realize that headphone technology like Susvara and Abyss have been around since the 1970


Planar technology was created around the 50s. Magnetic drivers built in the late 60s. Early 70s the first planar headphone. 
Planar drivers was heavy like abyss and was kept out of most headphones. Dynamic drivers were ideal and took over for the most part until they were able to reduce the weight of planars. Now we did a 180 and like heavy again. Strange times.

Soundwise? 70s,80s,90s headphones can easily match and surpass 2020 headphones.

https://www.kenrockwell.com/audio/stax/sr-x-mark-3.htm - Good review and he will take a 1975 headphone over a 2008 headphone. Find out which one.


----------



## ThanatosVI (Apr 18, 2022)

LarsMan said:


> But 'technology' would encompass more than just 'dynamic' vs 'planar magnetic', wouldn't it?


Depends on how you look at it.
As stated earlier, I do think that headphones and the other gear in the chain improved noteably.

However the basic technologies and design principles remained the same.

Best example are 300B Tube amps.
The amplifier circuits did improve, but the tube they rely on is a hundred years old by now


----------



## LarsMan

jonathan c said:


> From an earlier post in a different thread:


Roll away the dew!!!


----------



## LarsMan

protoss said:


> Planar technology was created around the 50s
> Planar drivers was heavy like abyss and was kept out of most headphones. Dynamic drivers were ideal and took over for the most part until they were able to reduce the weight of planars. Now we did a 180 and like heavy again. Strange times.
> 
> Soundwise? 70s,80s,90s headphones can easily match and surpass 2020 headphones.
> ...


Please tell me which old-time headphones easily match and surpass Susvara and Abyss 1266. Maybe I can put mine on the used market! 
Ken Rockwell is talking about e-stats, which I don't much care about.


----------



## protoss (Apr 18, 2022)

LarsMan said:


> Please tell me which old-time headphones easily match and surpass Susvara and Abyss 1266. Maybe I can put mine on the used market!
> Ken Rockwell is talking about e-stats, which I don't much care about.


Its mostly Estats of course.
Lambdas pro, Sigmas , MK3, 80s lambdas etch... these were all 70s and 80s. And of course the headphone that no one can beat "Sennheiser HE90 1991", Omega 1993, HE60 1996

*Speaking on dynamics and planar. *
R10 1989. The most obvious
Sennheiser hd540 gold 1986 - This thread is very active. Just ask them. https://www.head-fi.org/threads/wow-sennheiser-hd-540-reference-are-so-good.670255/ 
HP1000 1989
K1000 1990
fostex 1974
Kenwood kh 71 1970s
Sansui ss100 1980s
So many Sony's - https://www.head-fi.org/threads/son...the-legendary-prince-aka-baby-mdr-r10.845464/
So many Sennheisers
So many Audio Technica - my main thread.

So many Beyerdynamic before they lost their cool. They were mighty back than. Ask MrTechAgent he has lots of youtube videos on them.


So yeah, theres like over 25+ headphones. Include STAX its over 30 or 40 headphones


----------



## protoss (Apr 18, 2022)

Alright fun time is over back to the HUNT for *300B TUBE AMPS!



*


----------



## protoss (Apr 18, 2022)

Is Eddie Current Studio B a Studio Junior amp design in a Balance act chassis?

Craig still hasnt responded to my email. Owell, I guess I wont be buying his amp it looks like. Wanted to ask him this question.







1st pic Balance act.
2nd pic Junior

Born the Studio B?


----------



## waterking

Has anyone mentioned the Woo 3ES?


----------



## protoss (Apr 18, 2022)

waterking said:


> Has anyone mentioned the Woo 3ES?


Yes, all discover amps and tubes on first page.


----------



## LarsMan

protoss said:


> Is Eddie Current Studio B a Studio Junior amp design in a Balance act chassis?
> 
> Craig still hasnt responded to my email. Owell, I guess I wont be buying his amp it looks like. Wanted to ask him this question.
> 
> ...


There is some visual similarity, but I see 3 balanced headphone sockets on the Balancing Act; I don't know if it has balanced inputs or not,  but the Studio B does not have balanced inputs. The power supply looks like the one on the Junior, but the Junior has 2 transformers on the main chassis, the Studio B has none on the main chassis.


----------



## BournePerfect (Apr 18, 2022)

protoss said:


> Why? The ES-R10 is based off a old dynamic technology that was created from 1985-89. All these new TOTL headphones should be ashamed of themselves that they can not revolutionize the headphone space.
> 
> Not many people know this. *Headphone technology has be in a stalemate from the 1970s.* Only Amps and Dacs have improved.
> 
> Heck, some people will pay 20K for a 1930s 300B Western Electric tube. (sold) <-- https://tubedepot.com/products/west...ase-300b-black-plate-late-1930-s-matched-pair


Corrected my typo. Meant to say making me NOT care for other TOTL's...


----------



## bobmysterious

The Balancing Act and Studio B/Studio Jr. are different animals.  Totally different amps.  The Studio B is indeed a Studio Jr. in a Balancing Act chassis.


----------



## BournePerfect

protoss said:


> Is Eddie Current Studio B a Studio Junior amp design in a Balance act chassis?
> 
> Craig still hasnt responded to my email. Owell, I guess I wont be buying his amp it looks like. Wanted to ask him this question.
> 
> ...


Yes, that's almost precisely what it is. Oh, and Craig is generally bad with email ime. Email Judi instead, I think it's on the site.


----------



## BournePerfect

bobmysterious said:


> The Balancing Act and Studio B/Studio Jr. are different animals.  Totally different amps.  The Studio B is indeed a Studio Jr. in a Balancing Act chassis.


jinx again


----------



## protoss

BournePerfect said:


> Corrected my typo. Meant to say making me NOT care for other TOTL's...


You made me go off another rant 
You owe me a eddie current studio B review with the R10 now.


----------



## bobmysterious

BournePerfect said:


> jinx again



Hahahaha, brothers in EC!


----------



## LarsMan

bobmysterious said:


> Hahahaha, brothers in EC!


Craig told me that even though he named it after the electronics term 'eddy current', he spelled it 'Eddie' in tribute to Eddie Haskell from 'Leave It To Beaver'! Eddie was one of my favorite characters on TV!


----------



## BournePerfect

I didn't know that! Figured he was just trying to differentiate it from the other.


----------



## protoss (Apr 18, 2022)

So is the Studio B a better refine version of the JR or is it the exact same amp but bigger in sizes?


----------



## bobmysterious

LarsMan said:


> Craig told me that even though he named it after the electronics term 'eddy current', he spelled it 'Eddie' in tribute to Eddie Haskell from 'Leave It To Beaver'! Eddie was one of my favorite characters on TV!


Duuuuuuuuude, that's some deep trivia right there.  I had no idea!!!

Studio B is the same amp as the Jr., just in a different (BA) chassis.


----------



## protoss (Apr 18, 2022)

bobmysterious said:


> Studio B is the same amp as the Jr., just in a different (BA) chassis


Oh.... I am not sure how I feel about this now? Now I have to talk to Craig. I do not want a useless fat box if I can get a small JR size chassis?

Hopefully, he can make me a 300B JR...


----------



## LarsMan

bobmysterious said:


> Duuuuuuuuude, that's some deep trivia right there.  I had no idea!!!
> 
> Studio B is the same amp as the Jr., just in a different (BA) chassis.


HAH!!!!      Yeah, after he told me that, I'd attach a picture of Eddie Haskell on all the emails I sent him! I still want to make a small print of him to stick on the amp! Eddie's face right on the silver at the top of the volume control would be perfect!


----------



## bobmysterious (Apr 18, 2022)

protoss said:


> Oh.... I am not sure how I feel about this now? Now I have to talk to Craig. I do not want a useless fat box if I can get a small JR size chassis?
> 
> Hopefully, he can make me a 300B JR...


It's not a useless fat box... Honestly, it doesn't really have a big footprint at all.  Look up the dimensions, I think they're pretty similar.  And I doubt he has any of those aficionado/Jr. chassis left, so there's that too... Also, keep in mind that these are the last amps he's making.  I'd imagine a big point was to use up leftover parts from other models as well.



LarsMan said:


> HAH!!!!      Yeah, after he told me that, I'd attach a picture of Eddie Haskell on all the emails I sent him! I still want to make a small print of him to stick on the amp! Eddie's face right on the silver at the top of the volume control would be perfect!


He'd probably crack up.  Might be worth doing!


----------



## BournePerfect

Not to mention the Studio B, ECBA chassis is gorgeous af.


----------



## bobmysterious

Curious as to what tubes y'all are running in yours.  I'm using:

Driver:  JAN 5670
Power:  EML Mesh Plate 300b
Rectifier:  Telefunken Black Diamond GZ34-TK

As I've mentioned before, I really dig the sound it's got going right now.  I guess I'm not too big on tube rolling because I've got some others, just haven't felt the need to tweak tubes yet.  I have a couple WE JW 396A's which I haven't really played with.  I also have a Bendix 2C51 which I haven't done much with yet either.  Had a Mullard GZ34, turned out to be bunk so I haven't bought another yet.  Seems like the new production Telefunken is doing an adequate job anyways.


----------



## paradoxper

protoss said:


> Planar technology was created around the 50s. Magnetic drivers built in the late 60s. Early 70s the first planar headphone.
> Planar drivers was heavy like abyss and was kept out of most headphones. Dynamic drivers were ideal and took over for the most part until they were able to reduce the weight of planars. Now we did a 180 and like heavy again. Strange times.
> 
> Soundwise? 70s,80s,90s headphones can easily match and surpass 2020 headphones.
> ...


You may wish to specifically cite what type of 2020 headphones.
Utopia is a fully realized dynamic competing with the very best echelon of any type.
1266 blows out any planar in sheer dynamic force and impact.
A Valkyria is a testament of reference with breathtaking timbre utilizing a clever driver scheme.
The SR1a is the most impressive technological achievement as it simply makes all other headphones sound masked over and decidedly flat plane sounding.

Of course you could always cherry pick the Sennheiser juggernaut and their supreme engineering and present an HD820 and ask what were they thinking.


----------



## protoss

@paradoxper 
Interesting. You really like the Utopia, huh. I might pick one up again and see what's up. I for sure need a warmer amp this time. Maybe these 300B amps will do!
The rest of the headphones, I have no problems. For fun here and there, I'll take cheap shots at them. I can not help it lol. I wish the Valkyria was a a lot cheaper. Owell


----------



## BournePerfect

bobmysterious said:


> Curious as to what tubes y'all are running in yours.  I'm using:
> 
> Driver:  JAN 5670
> Power:  EML Mesh Plate 300b
> ...


I'm using WE 396a, EML mesh 300b, and a Fender GT 5AR4 because my stock rectifier from Craig had arched. I'm currently waiting on a new 5AR4 from a new company that really caught my eye based on their cryo techniques. Ordered a couple weeks ago but it was already on backorder.

Olh and I'm 99% certain I'm gonna finally pull the trigger on the WE300Bs in a day or two.


----------



## paradoxper

protoss said:


> @paradoxper
> Interesting. You really like the Utopia, huh. I might pick one up again and see what's up. I for sure need a warmer amp this time. Maybe these 300B amps will do!
> The rest of the headphones, I have no problems. For fun here and there, I'll take cheap shots at them. I can not help it lol. I wish the Valkyria was a a lot cheaper. Owell


I actually dislike Utopia due to timbre issues I hear, however, I can and do appreciate its competency.

My advice is unless you enjoy that saturated richness of 300B or love SET, pair a nice solid state with an even nicer 300B pre.

But it does seem you have qualifiers for headamp vs and size. 

I can agree pricing is a bit of crux. However, it's always been this way and is naturally progressing.

The good news, no one forces your purchase, there are tons of options, and even a few very great values.

I do think between ears on SR1a, TC, SGL, Valkyria, we're in a golden ear of sound, one which is meeting a wall. I don't expect refinement differentials for 10 years until we see a leap in a technological advancement.

I will urge you to listen to the Valkyria, a high-level sound engineer savant creation, illuminates a hi-fi discrepancy.


----------



## bobmysterious

BournePerfect said:


> I'm using WE 396a, EML mesh 300b, and a Fender GT 5AR4 because my stock rectifier from Craig had arched. I'm currently waiting on a new 5AR4 from a new company that really caught my eye based on their cryo techniques. Ordered a couple weeks ago but it was already on backorder.
> 
> Olh and I'm 99% certain I'm gonna finally pull the trigger on the WE300Bs in a day or two.


I might have to plug in the WE 396a and give it another shot, kinda interested now.  I’m super excited to hear about your experience with some new WE300’s.  Go forth, spend coin, bring back reviews!  Remember, be the space monkey!


----------



## Whitigir

protoss said:


> @paradoxper
> Interesting. You really like the Utopia, huh. I might pick one up again and see what's up. I for sure need a warmer amp this time. Maybe these 300B amps will do!
> The rest of the headphones, I have no problems. For fun here and there, I'll take cheap shots at them. I can not help it lol. I wish the Valkyria was a a lot cheaper. Owell


300s is not warmer than 2A3....they are actually more high-fi than the mellowed 2A3...in a sense...the 300b is brighter and more analytical than 2A3, just IMO


----------



## protoss

Mr Sakuma legendary amplifier using *Vaic Valve 300B tubes*

So hard to find a nice picture of his amp.
*


*


----------



## protoss

Whitigir said:


> 300s is not warmer than 2A3....they are actually more high-fi than the mellowed 2A3...in a sense...the 300b is brighter and more analytical than 2A3, just IMO


The Utopia I found was dry and boring. I heard 300B tubes before and they were musical, exciting and a blast to listen to. Gives a huge soundstage and a full body sound. That was my experience.


----------



## Whitigir

protoss said:


> The Utopia I found was dry and boring. I heard 300B tubes before and they were musical, exciting and a blast to listen to. Gives a huge soundstage and a full body sound. That was my experience.


Have you tried any 2A3 amp yet ?


----------



## protoss (Apr 18, 2022)

Whitigir said:


> Have you tried any 2A3 amp yet ?


The only non-300B amps I heard was
HE90V, BHSE, DIY T2, Woo audio stuff, Dark voice, all Stax tube amps, and a few others. The list on page 1 is close to 0.1% I heard sadly.

Oh yes, I heard a lot of Mcintosh stuff at a audio show. And other similar level gear there. No idea their names.


----------



## paradoxper (Apr 18, 2022)

Whitigir said:


> 300s is not warmer than 2A3....they are actually more high-fi than the mellowed 2A3...in a sense...the 300b is brighter and more analytical than 2A3, just IMO


I use 300B, 2A3 and 45. The 2A3 lacks the midrange richness of a, say, WE300B and provides a better bass response than the 300B unless you roll an EML, or Takatsuki which are more balanced. But generally a 300B imparts more midrange presence, larger engrossing sound particular in staging but less prodigious with bass response and ultimate treble extension.

And it's why the 300B works masterfully exploiting solid state strength.


----------



## protoss

paradoxper said:


> larger engrossing sound particular in staging


Yes this! This feeling was magical for me. There are bright and dry 300B tubes and rich and engrossing sound tubes.


----------



## protoss

I just found this. Scroll down for a nice review of each tube sound. You can see which tubes to stay away.

https://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/1201/300b/


----------



## LarsMan

protoss said:


> I just found this. Scroll down for a nice review of each tube sound. You can see which tubes to stay away.
> 
> https://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/1201/300b/


At the top of the article, it says 'Dec 2001', so I don't know how much credence I'd give it now; things change in 21 years!


----------



## Whitigir

protoss said:


> I just found this. Scroll down for a nice review of each tube sound. You can see which tubes to stay away.
> 
> https://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/1201/300b/


I am surprised that he gave western electric such low values


----------



## LarsMan

bobmysterious said:


> I might have to plug in the WE 396a and give it another shot, kinda interested now.  I’m super excited to hear about your experience with some new WE300’s.  Go forth, spend coin, bring back reviews!  Remember, be the space monkey!





BournePerfect said:


> I'm using WE 396a, EML mesh 300b, and a Fender GT 5AR4 because my stock rectifier from Craig had arched. I'm currently waiting on a new 5AR4 from a new company that really caught my eye based on their cryo techniques. Ordered a couple weeks ago but it was already on backorder.
> 
> Olh and I'm 99% certain I'm gonna finally pull the trigger on the WE300Bs in a day or two.


I contacted Brent Jessee to see about what tube I might be able to upgrade (NOT the 300B's) to give me a bit more heft in the lower mids, and he recommended an RCA rectifier replacement; he knows of what he speaks - now that EC sounds truly bad-ass, and give it the right song and source, and it will get Susvaras to vibrate yer bones from the skull on down, and I am talking very moderate volume; I never really blast music through my cans. It won't emphasize bass but it will deliver what's there.


----------



## bobmysterious

LarsMan said:


> I contacted Brent Jessee to see about what tube I might be able to upgrade (NOT the 300B's) to give me a bit more heft in the lower mids, and he recommended an RCA rectifier replacement; he knows of what he speaks - now that EC sounds truly bad-ass, and give it the right song and source, and it will get Susvaras to vibrate yer bones from the skull on down, and I am talking very moderate volume; I never really blast music through my cans. It won't emphasize bass but it will deliver what's there.


I may have to look into upgrading my rectifier then.  Glad you got good results too!  Would you say it was a pretty pronounced difference switching rectifier tubes?


----------



## protoss

Whitigir said:


> I am surprised that he gave western electric such low values


Overall great read thou.
WE tubes are $1500 a pair. Thats a lot.


LarsMan said:


> At the top of the article, it says 'Dec 2001', so I don't know how much credence I'd give it now; things change in 21 years!


Nevertheless it was a excellent take.


----------



## protoss

History of 300B tubes, 2014

Great research and fun to read.
http://www.aca.gr/index/forums/fen/hiend2?row=2495


----------



## LarsMan

bobmysterious said:


> I may have to look into upgrading my rectifier then.  Glad you got good results too!  Would you say it was a pretty pronounced difference switching rectifier tubes?


Yes, it was a very pronounced difference; previously I'd get deep bass, and the upper mids and treble sounded fine and clear and airy, but it sounded like the lower mids were MIA. I told Brent just what I was looking for and he said this tube has excellent bass. This new tube brought that back and the whole sound is bigger. Nice thing is, unlike the 300B, these tubes are relatively cheap.


----------



## LarsMan

protoss said:


> Overall great read thou.
> WE tubes are $1500 a pair. Thats a lot.
> 
> Nevertheless it was a excellent take.


$1500 is certainly a lot, and if you can swing it, it's worth it, too. To me it was, anyway. You could likely find something as good or better for less if you want to spend a lot of time and money tube rolling. 

It IS a really interesting read; I'd like to see something like that more up-to-date. 

It wasn't an excellent take on WE tubes; they are nothing like what they were in 2001; this is a brand new plant for producing 300B tubes. Read up on it on the WE website.


----------



## ThanatosVI

Whitigir said:


> I am surprised that he gave western electric such low values


Well the 300Bs he tested are NOT the ones produced and available today.
The manufacture wasn't even around during the time of the review.


----------



## lumdicks (Apr 19, 2022)

bobmysterious said:


> Curious as to what tubes y'all are running in yours.  I'm using:
> 
> Driver:  JAN 5670
> Power:  EML Mesh Plate 300b
> ...


In my Fostex HP-V8:
Rectifier : GEC Genalex KT88
Driver: Telefunken E88CC
Power: Takatsuki TA-300B





In my Little Dot LD-Y2:
Rectifier: Western Electric 274B
Driver: RCA 6SH7
Power: Western Electric 300B (2021)


----------



## Whitigir (Apr 19, 2022)

lumdicks said:


> In my Fostex HP-V8:
> Rectifier : GEC Genalex KT88
> Driver: Telefunken E88CC
> Power: Takatsuki TA-300B
> ...


The Fostex is so beautiful.  How is it compared to little dot ? I know the input transformers on little dot is lundhal, but what about the output.  Are they both negative feedback amp?



ThanatosVI said:


> Well the 300Bs he tested are NOT the ones produced and available today.
> The manufacture wasn't even around during the time of the review.



could you tell me more ? Was this some kind of cheap copy cat ? Because the NOS WE300B is supposedly the best


----------



## helljudgement

Whitigir said:


> 300s is not warmer than 2A3....they are actually more high-fi than the mellowed 2A3...in a sense...the 300b is brighter and more analytical than 2A3, just IMO


300b would have more tube bloom rather then straight up warmth. Just to explain what I meant. Warmth pertains more to emphasis in frequency which in this case would be mid-bass to lower mid where bloom is more relating to transients and dynamics(decay, wet v dry sound). Both the HPA 4 and DNA Starlett are considered neutral sounding amps to me but the Starlett exhibit more bloom, wet sound with slightly rounded transients whereas the HPA 4 is dryer with sharper and more immediate transients. 

300b tubes have the reputation of being lush and richer sounding than most other DHT and it certainly have these inherent properties but it can be a fairly neutral sounding depending on how the amp is designed and built. To my pleasant surprise, the Studio B isn't as warm or bloomy as I'm expecting a 300b amp to be.


----------



## lumdicks

Whitigir said:


> The Fostex is so beautiful.  How is it compared to little dot ? I know the input transformers on little dot is lundhal, but what about the output.  Are they both negative feedback amp?


The Fostex produces effortless and large scaled sound, with very transparent and airy mid and high. Despite its output is only at 2W but surprisingly it drives my Susvara nicely with a very unique transparency and details sound with good dynamics. Imaging and soundstage is the best I have ever heard and it is a pity that it was discontinued shortly after the launch.

I do not know the details of output transformer of the Little Dot but compared to the Fostex, its low end is more prominent with sweeter mid (probably due to the WE300B) but more intimate.


----------



## LarsMan

Whitigir said:


> The Fostex is so beautiful.  How is it compared to little dot ? I know the input transformers on little dot is lundhal, but what about the output.  Are they both negative feedback amp?
> 
> 
> 
> could you tell me more ? Was this some kind of cheap copy cat ? Because the NOS WE300B is supposedly the best


If you go to the Western Electric website, you can see the whole story in all the details. 
The moral of the story is you probably won't get any kind of an accurate reflection of how things are today in reviews that are 21 years old.


----------



## paradoxper

Linlai is releasing their Dream series. 300B and 845. Pretty excited on this one.


----------



## Whitigir

paradoxper said:


> Linlai is releasing their Dream series. 300B and 845. Pretty excited on this one.


I use LinLai 300B but WE-300 is the best at it 😉 could be different amp designs with different performances


----------



## paradoxper

Whitigir said:


> I use LinLai 300B but WE-300 is the best at it 😉 could be different amp designs with different performances


I half-agree. WE is great, so are the EML and the ACME were fantastic. This is Linlai's breakout performance.


----------



## Whitigir

paradoxper said:


> I half-agree. WE is great, so are the EML and the ACME were fantastic. This is Linlai's breakout performance.


You meant LinLai newer products ?


----------



## paradoxper

Whitigir said:


> You meant LinLai newer products ?


Yes, this new Dream series.


----------



## protoss (Apr 19, 2022)

Back into that rabbit hole again.

*2 unique DACs with tubes.*

Acuhorn R2R XT, a R2R DAC uses 4 300B TUBES

vs

Audio Phonique Tube DAC PCM/DSD, a direct-heated Emission Labs EML45 triodes
Rectifier tube   : EML 247B
Output tubes   : 4x EML45


----------



## protoss

It seems impossible to get in contact with Craig from EC because of this I am more interested in his amp more than before. 
It must be his plan. 

What is his email? Is it this?  ckmoth@hotmail.com
I sent out 2 emails to him? Its been 4 days now.

Who the heck use Hotmail lol


----------



## LarsMan

protoss said:


> It seems impossible to get in contact with Craig from EC because of this I am more interested in his amp more than before.
> It must be his plan.
> 
> What is his email? Is it this?  ckmoth@hotmail.com
> ...


You can also try sending a message to his wife's email, judiuthus@hotmail.com ....


----------



## protoss

LarsMan said:


> You can also try sending a message to his wife's email, judiuthus@hotmail.com ....


What the.... Where did you find that? I also found this on the website - cuthus@charter.net 

.net? What's with these shady addresses.


----------



## LarsMan

protoss said:


> What the.... Where did you find that? I also found this on the website - cuthus@charter.net
> 
> .net? What's with these shady addresses.


I bought an amp from him; she takes care of the business part, so I corresponded with her as well. 
 .net is a shady address??? I've been on comcast.net for decades; nothing shady about it! No different from gmail.com or whatever.


----------



## protoss

LarsMan said:


> I bought an amp from him; she takes care of the business part, so I corresponded with her as well.
> .net is a shady address??? I've been on comcast.net for decades; nothing shady about it! No different from gmail.com or whatever.


joking.....
I was also about to say "Is Craig on AOL, maybe that's why he is not responding."


----------



## bobmysterious

Miss Judi is super great to work with.  When I placed my order for the Studio B she remembered me from ordering a Zana Deux Super in 2016!  Wonderful people to work with.  I'd reach out to Judi and say hi, she can definitely plug you in with Craig.  Be nice.


----------



## LarsMan

protoss said:


> joking.....
> I was also about to say "Is Craig on AOL, maybe that's why he is not responding."


Hah! Now AOL, _that_ is a joke, and I actually have 2 friends that are still on that; they're probably the last two!


----------



## normie610

paradoxper said:


> Yes, this new Dream series.


Is this positioned as a higher tier product than their Elite series?


----------



## paradoxper

protoss said:


> It seems impossible to get in contact with Craig from EC because of this I am more interested in his amp more than before.
> It must be his plan.
> 
> What is his email? Is it this?  ckmoth@hotmail.com
> ...


You are being entirely too impatient. Send a inquiry, wait one week.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

paradoxper said:


> You are being entirely too impatient. Send a inquiry, wait one week.


This is what having immediate access to the internet and Amazon Prime has done to us.  Remember when you actually had to wait weeks for your Ovaltine Secret Spy Decoder Ring to arrive by mail?


----------



## protoss

haha.

Well we are living in the future. I did give him 4 days. Sure, ill wait, I am in no rush, just wanted to talk with him about his stuff.

Probably another amplifier will tickle my fancy in the meantime.


----------



## paradoxper

normie610 said:


> Is this positioned as a higher tier product than their Elite series?


Proposed below, I believe with a focus on providing more warmth from the Elite.


----------



## paradoxper

ColSaulTigh said:


> This is what having immediate access to the internet and Amazon Prime has done to us.  Remember when you actually had to wait weeks for your Ovaltine Secret Spy Decoder Ring to arrive by mail?


It's also zealous enthusiasm.


protoss said:


> haha.
> 
> Well we are living in the future. I did give him 4 days. Sure, ill wait, I am in no rush, just wanted to talk with him about his stuff.
> 
> Probably another amplifier will tickle my fancy in the meantime.


Intention was he wasn't ducking you, he's currently in a batched-run, he's old, he's semi-retired, 4 days is not a whole lot.


----------



## protoss (Apr 19, 2022)

Finally found another one!
*Vinnie Rossi LIO DHT 300B *$10,000 
Added*


----------



## protoss (Apr 19, 2022)

The Vinnie is beast! It is preamp/integrated 300B tube amp, and has built in DAC.


----------



## normie610

protoss said:


> Finally found another one!
> *Vinnie Rossi LIO DHT 300B *$10,000


This is discontinued though. Now they have the Brama integrated, a hybrid amp with 300B in preamp stage w/ SS output. But it’s more of a speaker amp though, with 350W 😁 In theory you can use adapter from speaker taps and there’s also a line stage XLR output. Or there’s the Brama 300B preamp for those who want to use it with an SS headphone amp @paradoxper 😊


----------



## protoss

normie610 said:


> discontinued


Discontinued products are allowed. Why not. I would love to hear this amp. In the used market it is still expensive.


----------



## normie610

protoss said:


> Discontinued products are allowed. Why not. I would love to hear this amp. In the used market it is still expensive.


Yes of course. I‘m just trying to add more info on the product just in case someone is looking to get one brand new.


----------



## paradoxper

normie610 said:


> This is discontinued though. Now they have the Brama integrated, a hybrid amp with 300B in preamp stage w/ SS output. But it’s more of a speaker amp though, with 350W 😁 In theory you can use adapter from speaker taps and there’s also a line stage XLR output. Or there’s the Brama 300B preamp for those who want to use it with an SS headphone amp @paradoxper 😊


How broke do you want me. I'm definitely bringing in the Neo 300B but I'll also be bringing in some 300B amplifier for the Valkyria and to compare to the Primavera.
I don't see how anything is going to nudge the Cabernet > CFA3. And then I still have to sink into tube stock. Sigh.


----------



## Whitigir

protoss said:


> Finally found another one!
> *Vinnie Rossi LIO DHT 300B *$10,000
> Added*



what in the world is ultra capacitor powered ?


----------



## protoss

normie610 said:


> Brama 300B preamp


This has a *headphone jack* at the back right? There's 2 models?


----------



## normie610

paradoxper said:


> How broke do you want me. I'm definitely bringing in the Neo 300B but I'll also be bringing in some 300B amplifier for the Valkyria and to compare to the Primavera.
> I don't see how anything is going to nudge the Cabernet > CFA3. And then I still have to sink into tube stock. Sigh.


As broke as you can get 😁 curious on the Neo vs Cabernet comparison, I did consider Cabernet before, but since a local dealer had Neo in stock so I got that one instead.

P.S. you definitely piqued my interest for Valkyria.


----------



## normie610

protoss said:


> This has a *headphone jack* at the back right? There's 2 models?


I don’t think so. It only has 3 sets of XLR output.


----------



## protoss (Apr 19, 2022)

For some reason cant find a clear picture.
Anyway the price is nonsense levels ---> *$42,500.00*


----------



## paradoxper

Whitigir said:


> what in the world is ultra capacitor powered ?


Marketing. Banked storage reservoir for the power supply.


----------



## paradoxper

normie610 said:


> As broke as you can get 😁 curious on the Neo vs Cabernet comparison, I did consider Cabernet before, but since a local dealer had Neo in stock so I got that one instead.
> 
> P.S. you definitely piqued my interest for Valkyria.


Right answer.   

Get a demo of Valkyria, I guarantee it will be the best sound you've heard.


----------



## normie610

protoss said:


> For some reason cant find a clear picture.
> Anyway the price is nonsense levels ---> *$42,500.00*


I believe the red ones are trigger outputs


----------



## normie610

protoss said:


> Anyway the price is nonsense levels ---> *$42,500.00*


Yep we’re into 2 channel territory here.


----------



## protoss

Fantastic news! Craig wife responded within 1 hour of my email 📧 👍 

😃

Quick answers to my questions.

-2 month build time.
-Amps are ready now. Not sure how long.
-Only amps making is Studio B and its over.
-substitute your supplied coupling capacitors, or volume control of choice.


----------



## bobmysterious

Miss Judi rules!


----------



## protoss (Apr 19, 2022)

FLUXION audio technology
Amp build of choice with headphone Socket on the side.
FLUXION GM-2, 300B $1200
added*


----------



## protoss (Apr 19, 2022)

Shuguang Black Treasure 300B Tubes
$500

Very interesting tube. People liking it alot.
A few are saying it is great with rock music.


----------



## protoss

Another one bite the dust! 
I am sure 95% of all 300B Headphone Tube amps are found  

Audio Space AS-6i (300B) $4000
Vacuum Tubes: 2 x 6N9P (6SL7 or ECC35)
2 x 6N8P (6SN7 or ECC32)
4 x 300B
Added*


----------



## protoss

Back to the rabbit hole.

*ProLogue Premium CD Player - $3,799*
Review quote, "The sound was very tube-like as well, offering a large,
almost spherical soundstage that reminded us of a great 300B amplifier"

CD-Player with tubes. Rare indeed







*Tubes:
4 - 12AU7
2 - 5AR4*


----------



## protoss

*Emission Lab *

"saving the world from solid state."


----------



## protoss (Apr 21, 2022)

Great read. A history of the rise of Sophia Electric and their best tube to date - Royal Princess 300B $1500

published, 2011
https://positive-feedback.com/Issue57/300B.htm


----------



## protoss

*Bottlehead Neothoriator *$10,000
Extremely rare amp. 
Made to order. 
Only 2 has been built. 
-845 tubes
-5965 tube



-


----------



## paradoxper

protoss said:


> *Bottlehead Neothoriator *$10,000
> Extremely rare amp.
> Made to order.
> Only 2 has been built.
> ...


Have to say, this amp looks terribly cheap for what it is.


----------



## protoss

There's an actual video on it.
I did not know this but it is Bottlehead "*Statement product*."


----------



## LarsMan

paradoxper said:


> Have to say, this amp looks terribly cheap for what it is.


Bottlehead doesn't seem to be the kind of outfit that cares much about how their gear looks, especially if they only made 2.


----------



## LarsMan

protoss said:


> Great read. A history of the rise of Sophia Electric and their best tube to date - Royal Princess 300B $1500
> 
> published, 2011
> https://positive-feedback.com/Issue57/300B.htm


11 year old article; who knows how much of this is still the case? The history would be the same, but productions often change over time....


----------



## protoss (Apr 21, 2022)

These are the BEST of the BEST TUBES.

*Western Electric $1500 *- Highly recommended.
5 Year warranty
40,000 hour of use.
Pretty much your whole life it will last





2nd place
*Takatsuki 300b $2500*
2 year warranty





3rd place

*Elrog ERB 300B $1500*





4th place

*Sophia Electric Royal Princess II 300B $1500*





5th place
*Psvane ACME 300B $1500*





6th place

*EAT 300B $1700*





7th place

*Linlai™ Global E-300B vacuum tubes $900*


----------



## LarsMan

protoss said:


> These are the BEST of the BEST TUBES.
> 
> *Western Electric $1500 *- Highly recommended.
> 5 Year warranty
> ...


Bloody expensive tubes, aren't they?? 🤑


----------



## protoss

Yeah. It seems $1500 dollars is the price for the best.


----------



## Whitigir

LarsMan said:


> Bloody expensive tubes, aren't they?? 🤑


300B never really been known as a cheap kind 🤑🤑🤑


----------



## ColSaulTigh

protoss said:


> These are the BEST of the BEST TUBES.
> 
> *Western Electric $1500 *- Highly recommended.
> 5 Year warranty
> ...


No EML?


----------



## Haidar

The Coincident headphone amp is the Dynamo MKIII 300B, instead of the Turbo 845SE Mono.
And the Audio Note Kits Virtuoso takes EL84 tubes not 300B


----------



## protoss

ColSaulTigh said:


> No EML?


8th
9th
10th 
11th...
and so on.... 

The rest could follow. The top seven is extremely hard to beat. 
I like EMl, I quoted them last page. They have one of the best quotes ever


----------



## paradoxper

protoss said:


> These are the BEST of the BEST TUBES.
> 
> *Western Electric $1500 *- Highly recommended.
> 5 Year warranty
> ...


There is no best, just preferential. WE does get my vote. Ha.


----------



## Whitigir

paradoxper said:


> There is no best, just preferential. WE does get my vote. Ha.


Ok, I learn from you.  There is no best, but WE is also my choice 😂


----------



## paradoxper

Whitigir said:


> Ok, I learn from you.  There is no best, but WE is also my choice 😂


Cheeky bug.


----------



## protoss

Yes, Western Electric 300b gets my vote too!

If you have $1500 and deciding. Right away it is WE no question about it.


----------



## lumdicks

protoss said:


> These are the BEST of the BEST TUBES.
> 
> *Western Electric $1500 *- Highly recommended.
> 5 Year warranty
> ...





My arm and leg. 😀


----------



## ColSaulTigh

lumdicks said:


> My arm and leg. 😀


Worth it.


----------



## Whitigir

lumdicks said:


> My arm and leg. 😀


You still have 1 kidney and half a liver 😤


----------



## lumdicks

Whitigir said:


> You still have 1 kidney and half a liver 😤


It's true but already reserved for a new DAC.......... anyone interested in my hairs?


----------



## cddc (Apr 21, 2022)

LarsMan said:


> Bloody expensive tubes, aren't they?? 🤑




Indeed, they're bloody expensive, which prevented 300B amps from becoming popular.

Why a light bulb (essentially) can be sold for such high prices, or there are just too many audiophools?


----------



## Whitigir

cddc said:


> Indeed, they're bloody expensive, which prevented 300B amps from becoming popular.
> 
> Why a light bulb (essentially) can be sold for such high prices, or there are just too many audiophools?


I know of an organic tube that cost a man his whole life 😂, but that tube can also reproduce though


----------



## BournePerfect (Apr 24, 2022)

@bobmysterious @LarsMan I just ordered the WE 300Bs from Woo, and the should arrive early-mid next week. I also finally received my new 5AR4 rectifier today, but haven't tried it out yet. It's from a Wathen audio, and they've got some pretty interesting cryo techniques and whatnot that caught my, and Steve Deckert from Decware claims they are the best tubes (various Wathen ones he's been testing in his own amps) that he's EVER heard-including NOS, fwiw. Coming from him that's high praise worth looking into. Will report later on what I hear, and still using the EMLs and WE 396a in the meantime. Food for thought.


----------



## Whitigir

BournePerfect said:


> @bobmysterious @LarsMan I just ordered the WE 300Bs from Woo, and the should arrive early-mid next week. I also finally received my new 5AR4 rectifier today, but haven't tried it out yet. It's from a Walthen audio, and they've got some pretty interesting cro techniques and whatnot that caught my, and Steve Deckert from Decware claims they are the best tubes (various Walthen ones he's been testing in his own amps) that he's EVER heard-including NOS, fwiw. Coming from him that's high praise worth looking into. Will report later on what I hear, and still using the EMLs and WE 396a in the meantime. Food for thought.


We-300b needs at least 550 hours burn in  .  Let’s get started


----------



## BournePerfect

I'm kinda glad they won't arrive this week-gives me time to evaluate this Walthen Cryotone rectifier for a bit.


----------



## helljudgement (Apr 22, 2022)

protoss said:


> These are the BEST of the BEST TUBES.


Have you heard any of these tubes? I don't want to discredit your opinions or single you in particular but if your ranking is based solely on reviews, popularity or price rather than your own first hand experience then this list serve absolutely no purpose beyond hyperbole. I've seen this time and time again on this forum with regards to rankings or opinions on gears without first hand experiences and this contributes nothing to educate users on the subject. If anything it only serve to steer users away from products that can potentially suit them more.

To keep this relevant I've heard the PSvane and Linlai tubes. I'd put Linlai above the psvane as it has a more neutral tone which fit my use case. Details, space, separation etc are all fairly close and probably indistinguishable to me unless pitted side by side. Main difference is tone.


----------



## helljudgement

.


----------



## protoss

@helljudgement 

Everything is hyerbole. 
I used to think like you, not anymore. Thinking that all reviews are useless, untill you hear it first hand. What you said about PSvane and Linlai tubes is falling into the same trap because it is "us" reading your opinion/review. So we should just dismiss your opinion/review too. Let's in fact dismiss every single opinion/review in every single subject while we at it. 

All this is too give everyone a reasonable understanding of what is out there. For me this thread greatly educated me about hundreds of amplifiers I never heard about. Companies that are over shadow by other campaines. It also gave me a pin point accuracy of what I want and what I can afford and obtain and tubes to look out for within my budget.


----------



## protoss (Apr 22, 2022)

*Page one is the most important page here. Constantly updated!*

Anyone can easily click page 1. Scroll through all the amps and choose if they like.

Example,
WBA Virtus 300B $1488
And
Gold lion tubes 300B $300

Now you have a $1800 300B tube amp with decent tubes.

I call this a success and wished someone did this long time ago.


----------



## helljudgement

protoss said:


> I used to think like you, not anymore. Thinking that all reviews are useless, untill you hear it first hand. What you said about PSvane and Linlai tubes is falling into the same trap because it is "us" reading your opinion/review. So we should just dismiss your opinion/review too. Let's in fact dismiss every single opinion/review in every single subject while we at it.


I never once said or even implied that reviews are useless. In fact it has nothing to do with reviews at all. Take reviews with a grain of salt or a bag of gold it's entirely up to the individual. Ranking gears is entirely subjective and will require first hand experience especially so with audio which is entirely subjective in the first place. 

What criteria are your ranking based on? Tonal qualities warmth/cold, tube bloom, staging, transients, decay, transparency, overall technicalities, longevity of the tube, branding or simply price? How can you conclusively say A is better than B, C, D if you've never heard any? Reviews to be serve as own's reference is one thing. Forming your own rankings based on solely on said reviews without stating you have in fact no experience with any of the items you've put on that list is just misleading. Reviews are at the end of the day just user experiences. I put out my experience with Linlai and Psvane because I've used both extensively for months. Even then I wouldn't place one over the other conclusively without first stating my preference for sound and what I look for in a tube at point of writing. 



protoss said:


> All this is too give everyone a reasonable understanding of what is out there. For me this thread greatly educated me about hundreds of amplifiers I never heard about. Companies that are over shadow by other campaines. It also gave me a pin point accuracy of what I want and what I can afford and obtain and tubes to look out for within my budget.


In the same way that you do not rank any of the amps you've listed, I have absolutely no issues at all if you've simply put that as a list of top tubes to potentially buy for one's amp. In fact I'd actually find that list helpful as I've even heard of some of these tubes. Based purely on prices, most can probably understand that any one of those will be top tier. Ranking them is entirely different matter. There are people who heavily rely on other's experiences due to lack of access or what not to make purchasing decision. A ranking list like this with no reference to gear or any audio description serve no purpose and will only downplay those not within the top n. 

Your amp list on the other hand does have a purpose. It list amps without any preconceived notion or ranking made with no prior experiences and serve as a good starting point for anyone looking to get into the triode. To that I think you've done what you've set out to do.


----------



## protoss

Okay just dismiss the tube rank. It is simple. I heard only 2 and I mention this before. Shopia and Western. 

Now why I rank western #1? 

Simple, 5 year warranty. Every other company sucks compare to this. Shopia for example is 1 year warranty. Next is of course sound. Western sounded better to me. 

The rank was a combination of five articles and buyer reviews combining into the list. Obviously it is not gospel truth. It is a great indicator. The rank is strong and I am pretty confident it is as close as accurate it can be.


----------



## bobmysterious

BournePerfect said:


> @bobmysterious @LarsMan I just ordered the WE 300Bs from Woo, and the should arrive early-mid next week. I also finally received my new 5AR4 rectifier today, but haven't tried it out yet. It's from a Walthen audio, and they've got some pretty interesting cryo techniques and whatnot that caught my, and Steve Deckert from Decware claims they are the best tubes (various Walthen ones he's been testing in his own amps) that he's EVER heard-including NOS, fwiw. Coming from him that's high praise worth looking into. Will report later on what I hear, and still using the EMLs and WE 396a in the meantime. Food for thought.


Good for you dude!  I’m excited to hear your thoughts on both of the tubes.  I put in the WE JW 396a after we talked tubes a few pages ago… Sounds nice!


----------



## BournePerfect

protoss said:


> Okay just dismiss the tube rank. It is simple. I heard only 2 and I mention this before. Shopia and Western.
> 
> Now why I rank western #1?
> 
> ...



Well one could argue the WE is the original, and everything else is a knockoff. Accept no substitutes and all that. I do love my EML mesh though, which also supposedly have a massive life cycle not unlike a WE, so there's that.


----------



## BournePerfect

protoss said:


> *Page one is the most important page here. Constantly updated!*
> 
> Anyone can easily click page 1. Scroll through all the amps and choose if they like.
> 
> ...



Now factor in average tube life...and you'll most likely find that WE followed by EML have WAY more bang for the buck at the end of the day.


----------



## protoss

This might be a technical question. Is it possible to revive or resurrect a 300B Tube?


----------



## BournePerfect

Well, there is a somewhat famous Frankenstein tube amp: https://enjoythemusic.com/superioraudio/equipment/0209/coincident_frankenstein_mkii.htm


----------



## protoss

They have the "Coincident Dynamo MKIII 300B" $3000 - available on special order for 300B tubes installation.

Added them.


----------



## paradoxper

protoss said:


> This might be a technical question. Is it possible to revive or resurrect a 300B Tube?


Yes. For example, EML themselves offer services for AVVT tubes.


----------



## paradoxper

protoss said:


> Okay just dismiss the tube rank. It is simple. I heard only 2 and I mention this before. Shopia and Western.
> 
> Now why I rank western #1?
> 
> ...


This is incorrect just as well. EML offer the same opt-in 5 years warranty.


----------



## BournePerfect

paradoxper said:


> This is incorrect just as well. EML offer the same opt-in 5 years warranty.



Correct. However...I basically couldn't warranty mine, because the requested info needed from the box wasn't all there, and the company I bought from (can't recall, would have to look it up) was entirely unresponsive and unhelpful after my purchase was made. With that being said-I'm not worried. I haven't found really any reports of failed EML tubes, and they are known for their reliability. As for people blowing up their amps trying 2.5V mesh though when they weren't supposed to well, kek...


----------



## paradoxper

BournePerfect said:


> Correct. However...I basically couldn't warranty mine, because the requested info needed from the box wasn't all there, and the company I bought from (can't recall, would have to look it up) was entirely unresponsive and unhelpful after my purchase was made. With that being said-I'm not worried. I haven't found really any reports of failed EML tubes, and they are known for their reliability. As for people blowing up their amps trying 2.5V mesh though when they weren't supposed to well, kek...


That is frustrating. 

EML and WE likely have the best track record of reliability.

Unfortunately, you can find established data points of Elrog, Takatsuki etc failing at 1.5 years. Which if you calculate estimated hours of life, is disheartening.

That's the nature of 300B high risks, high rewards, it is.


----------



## ThanatosVI

Actually I heard a lot of horror stories about how badly EML respects warranty. 

Replacements taking up to 8 months and if you bought matched pairs/quads you only get a replacement for the one broken tube, which then does not match with the rest.


----------



## paradoxper (Apr 22, 2022)

ThanatosVI said:


> Actually I heard a lot of horror stories about how badly EML respects warranty.
> 
> Replacements taking up to 8 months and if you bought matched pairs/quads you only get a replacement for the one broken tube, which then does not match with the rest.


I know pippen failed his warranty registration and griped about his overall experience during a pandemic.

In any event, it's inane you even need jump through the hoop of opting-in to an extended warranty. My best advise is get to know your dealers personally, so they will go to bat for you.


----------



## BournePerfect

paradoxper said:


> That is frustrating.
> 
> EML and WE likely have the best track record of reliability.
> 
> ...



Yep-and my driving motivation for getting the EMLs and now the WEs...reliability (and great sound reviews as well of course).


----------



## protoss (Apr 22, 2022)

The Grant Fidelity A-534B amplifier 300B
Discontinued*
$1800
Added for me to get one day 😀


----------



## protoss

Grant fidelity dac-11 was a great dac. 
This is a underrated gem. 
Nice to mention.


----------



## protoss

I wonder if it is overkill to have a 300B amp, a 300B preamp and a 300B tube DAC 

🤔


----------



## ColSaulTigh

protoss said:


> I wonder if it is overkill to have a 300B amp, a 300B preamp and a 300B tube DAC
> 
> 🤔


Only one way to find out...


----------



## protoss

ColSaulTigh said:


> Only one way to find out...


I'm slowly am! 🐌
I got my sales and wanted list up. You might be surprise which 300b I have decided on  👀

Also 3 tubes are lining up too...


----------



## soulrider4ever

protoss said:


> Thats a lot of research.... Next someone might ask to make a speaker tube amp list.
> Maybe I place the letter *[P] *as an indication as a preamplifier to the existing list.
> Ill think about it...


Another vote for this if you can.  In the market for a 300B but must have a preamp, would be super helpful.


----------



## protoss

soulrider4ever said:


> Another vote for this if you can.  In the market for a 300B but must have a preamp, would be super helpful.


That's too much work for me.
We at 96% 300B headphone amps found. 
It's next to impossible to find the remaining ones.

My work is almost done 🍻


----------



## BournePerfect

Do copper interconnects next.


----------



## protoss

BournePerfect said:


> Do copper interconnects next.


Can I rank them or will I get yelled at again 😆 🤣


----------



## BournePerfect

Just re-rank them as WE-only true 300b. Then rank all the runner up knockoffs.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Well, here we go....

BAM!  Incoming - Woo Audio WA5-LE Gen 2 w/upgraded internals and Sophia Princess tubes!


----------



## protoss (Apr 22, 2022)

@ColSaulTigh

That looks great! Love the wood block stand. With the lights off its stunning.
Who needs christmas lights? We have 300B tubes!


----------



## helljudgement

protoss said:


> The rank was a combination of five articles and buyer reviews combining into the list. Obviously it is not gospel truth. It is a great indicator. The rank is strong and I am pretty confident it is as close as accurate it can be.


I don't see how any of these make your list accurate or great indicator. Even if they are all 300b, tubes at this level all have a different sound and your list did absolutely nothing to describe or even classify the tone of each tube. You said WE sounded better than the Sophia to you. How better specifically? Also why does the Sophia rank lower than the Elrog and Takatsuki if you've never even the other 2? If you rank your tubes based on product support I supposed the WE may indeed be the best tube around. You're ranking the "BEST OF THE BEST" but you ignored Elrog 300b w/Molybdenum plate which is twice the price of a WE new issue even though there are a couple of reviews articles that compared it against other 300b.


protoss said:


> For me this thread greatly educated me about hundreds of amplifiers I never heard about. Companies that are over shadow by other campaines.


A tube ranking with no prior experiences will unnecessarily downplay a certain product on the list if there are no sound description and overshadow any tubes not mentioned in the list if you never personally experience them and is nothing more than a popularity contest. A tube 'list' on the other hand certainly set a different tone and provides more value as reference. 


protoss said:


> Can I rank them or will I get yelled at again 😆 🤣


Only if you've never heard them.


----------



## BournePerfect

Or, we can all make lists and have opinions on public message boards (til big tech finds us anyway). With that being said of course everyone has subjective preferences with this stuff. I mainly went WE & EML because they are both considered extremely reliable, with incredible life spans, and excellent reviews about their sonics. I actually almost bought the Elrogs, but heard about significant reliability issues at the time I was researching them. Oh and the aforementioned fact that both manufacturers offer a 5 yr warranty. More peace of mind I suppose, and putting their faith in their respective products. Makes a ton of the competition in the $800-2500 range look pretty risky in comparison, with significantly lesser warranties or possibly none at all. Anyway, those are a couple reasons I went the direction I did.


----------



## aarontyson

ColSaulTigh said:


> Well, here we go....
> 
> BAM!  Incoming - Woo Audio WA5-LE Gen 2 w/upgraded internals and Sophia Princess tubes!





ColSaulTigh said:


> Well, here we go....
> 
> BAM!  Incoming - Woo Audio WA5-LE Gen 2 w/upgraded internals and Sophia Princess tubes!


Enjoy!! Just got back from FedEx. I’ll send tracking info in private message.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

aarontyson said:


> Enjoy!! Just got back from FedEx. I’ll send tracking info in private message.


I didn't know you were on here!

Thanks for the great deal and awesome communication.  I can't wait for it to arrive!


----------



## bobmysterious (Apr 23, 2022)

B's at night are a beautiful sight.


----------



## bobmysterious




----------



## ColSaulTigh

bobmysterious said:


>


Which version of the EML are those?


----------



## BournePerfect

300b mesh.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

XLS or standard?


----------



## BournePerfect

Neither. Mesh. XLS and reg 300b are solid plate.


----------



## BournePerfect

https://artaudio.us/collections/emission-labs This page has all 3 fyi.


----------



## bobmysterious

Correct, those are the EML Mesh Plates.  Look good, sound good too.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Thank  you - I alreadyt have EML 5U4G Mesh for my WA6-SE's, just learning the 300B's.


----------



## protoss (Apr 24, 2022)

Demo 5 different 300B tubes.

JJ,                                        1:55   
Sophia Royal Princess,        4:57
Emission Labs 300BXLS,    8:16  and 11:12 
Genalex Gold Lion,             12:42 
Psvane Treasure II..             16:17


----------



## normie610

Trying out EML 5U4G and EML 300B XLS, using Tung Sol 6SU7GTY brown base as the preamp tubes. I have to use 4 socket savers in order to fit the other 5U4G 😁 so far so good! Deep and impactful bass with Susvara, while maintaining that 300B sound. A bit less resolution than WE300B but it’s still very very good!

I tried EML 5U4G with WE300B before, and the bass is a bit anemic, but the clarity and treble is very beautiful indeed. Switched to EML 300B, and the sound becomes much more organic and the bass is where it should be, no longer anemic. Added the Tung Sol and it becomes a very powerful sound.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

I do like my EML's (both 274B and 5U4G) in my Woo WA6's, and plan on ordering some 300B XLS's once my Woo WA5 lands on Wednesday.  I'm also going to get a set of KR300b RK's as I LOVE that 5U4G...


----------



## Whitigir

My WE-300B !!


----------



## soulrider4ever

protoss said:


> That's too much work for me.
> We at 96% 300B headphone amps found.
> It's next to impossible to find the remaining ones.
> 
> My work is almost done 🍻


Here you go: I helped!

Western Electric 91E 300B - preamp out se only (line/var)
Feliks audio Envy - se/xlr
Vinnie Rossi LIO DHT 300B - se only
Audion Silver Night HP1 - optional se/xlr (custom order)
Manley Labs – Neo-Classic 300B - se only
Opera Consonance Linear X - se/xlr
Woo 3ES Electrostatic - xlr only (no remote)

Feel free to add a note for those 7 on the main page if you can. Thanks for putting this list together at all!  Good stuff!


----------



## Haidar

Consonance LinearQ https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002664516417.html


----------



## Whitigir

Haidar said:


> Consonance LinearQ https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002664516417.html


Wow , that really comes off from unknown brand for that much ? I guess Cayin MKII is a much foolproof choice lol.  Thanks and good to know it existence


----------



## paradoxper

ColSaulTigh said:


> I do like my EML's (both 274B and 5U4G) in my Woo WA6's, and plan on ordering some 300B XLS's once my Woo WA5 lands on Wednesday.  I'm also going to get a set of KR300b RK's as I LOVE that 5U4G...


Had you compared any other 274B? I'm contemplating grabbing a Western Electric 274B but I only hear positive things about the Aqua 274B.
I am trying to avoid tube nervosa. Sigh.


----------



## Haidar

> Wow , that really comes off from unknown brand for that much ?


The company is Opera Consonance and I wouldn't say they are an unknown brand.
http://www.opera-consonance.com/products/amplifier/LinearQ.htm


----------



## ColSaulTigh

paradoxper said:


> Had you compared any other 274B? I'm contemplating grabbing a Western Electric 274B but I only hear positive things about the Aqua 274B.
> I am trying to avoid tube nervosa. Sigh.


Oh yes, I have a ton of them.  Bear in mind, these were tested in my WA6-SE Gen 2(s), YMMV:

274B
Sophia Princess 274B
KR Audio 274B-HD
Emission Labs 274B
Takatsuki 274B

596
USAF "Mighty" 596 (w/Woo adapters)

5U4G/variants/GZ34/variants
Emission Labs 5U4G
KR Audio 5U4G "Riccardo Kron Anniversary Edition"
1972 NOS Brimar 5Z4GY
Ken Rad NOS 5U4G "Coke Bottle" Black Plate D-Getter
1957 NOS JAN Sylvania Ruggedized 5931/5U4GB
Tung-Sol 5U4GB Tube Full Wave Rectifier - Double Chromed Hanging GetterUBE
(?) NOS RCA GZ34

I think that's all of them not counting the stock ones that I never used...


----------



## normie610

ColSaulTigh said:


> 5U4G/variants/GZ34/variants
> Emission Labs 5U4G
> KR Audio 5U4G "Riccardo Kron Anniversary Edition"
> 1972 NOS Brimar 5Z4GY
> ...


I’m really curious with the legendary GEC U52 as many have said that it’s the best of the best. Have you had any experience with it?


----------



## ColSaulTigh

normie610 said:


> I’m really curious with the legendary GEC U52 as many have said that it’s the best of the best. Have you had any experience with it?


No, I can't say that I have...


----------



## protoss

Whitigir said:


> My WE-300B !!



Looks amazing!
It is like an alien aircraft and a UFO alien looking at me with his eyes in the middle.


----------



## protoss

soulrider4ever said:


> Here you go: I helped!
> 
> Western Electric 91E 300B - preamp out se only (line/var)
> Feliks audio Envy - se/xlr
> ...



Added*
Pre-amp section and a 300b Dac section.


----------



## paradoxper

ColSaulTigh said:


> Oh yes, I have a ton of them.  Bear in mind, these were tested in my WA6-SE Gen 2(s), YMMV:
> 
> 274B
> Sophia Princess 274B
> ...


Alright, Dub-CST. Nice!

Would you say each has a place or application or a bit redundant to a point?

Curious thoughts on whether to roll in WE274B for a little sustained definition and keep some warmth (using Mullard GZ and started with the EML 274B)
and keep focus on rolling 300B.

At this point, I'm pivoting the Valkryia from the 300B to the 45 tube as I need to shift the signature for more ideal performance.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

paradoxper said:


> Alright, Dub-CST. Nice!
> 
> Would you say each has a place or application or a bit redundant to a point?
> 
> ...


Well, my Woo WA5-LE doesn't arrive until tomorrow, so I can't speak on how they interact with 300B's.  But if my WA6-SE's are any indication, yes, each has their own "personality".  Here's my (very) basic thoughts on each:

*274B*
Sophia Princess 274B - Pretty, Warm, Slightly "fuzzy" - not super-clean.  Think "cup of good coffee"
KR Audio 274B-HD - A bit weak, thin, precise.  Very clean and lean, without much meat on the bone.  "Fresh Spring Ice Water"
Emission Labs 274B - Also pretty, strong, warm, but clean and has more brightness than the Princess.  "cup of Jamaican Blue Dark Roast coffee, properly brewed" or "fine Italian Espresso" or "Cafe Cubano"
Takatsuki 274B - Halfway between the KR Audio and the Emission Labs.  "cup of generic dark roast, slightly watered down"

*596*
USAF "Mighty" 596 (w/Woo adapters) - Cool to look at with the '50's wire antennae.  VERY thick and warm, slightly lacking in high-end sparkle.  Robust.  "Tea, Earl Grey, Hot."  Throw some honey in there while you're at it.

*5U4G/variants/GZ34/variants*
Emission Labs 5U4G - a weaker version of the 274B variant.  "cup of Starbucks coffee, with a little cream and sugar", maybe throw a little extra creamer in there....
KR Audio 5U4G "Riccardo Kron Anniversary Edition" - My personal favorite of all of my rectifier tubes.  STRONG, Hard-Hitting without being heavy, Beefy but with clarity and brightness.  "Jack Daniels Sinatra Select" or "Red Bull (which I can't stand but understand some people love it)".
1972 NOS Brimar 5Z4GY - A nuclear reactor (it runs EXTREMELY HOT) that sounds really good.  Slightly punchy, a perfect all-rounder.  "An ice-cold Coke on a hot day" or "a nice cold beer on a hot day", whichever you prefer.
Ken Rad NOS 5U4G "Coke Bottle" Black Plate D-Getter - Good, but not great - nothing to write home about.  Lacks emphasis, slightly underpowered, a touch bright, but not glaringly so.  "Budweiser" or "Sprite"
1957 NOS JAN Sylvania Ruggedized 5931/5U4GB - Another fireplug.  Not quite as punchy as the Brimar, but pretty close.  "An ice-cold Pepsi on a hot day" or "a nice cold [mid-level beer] on a hot day"
Tung-Sol 5U4GB Tube Full Wave Rectifier - Double Chromed Hanging Getter - My current listening tube.  Packs a punch.  Slightly heavier than the other 5U4G(var) that I have - comparable to the "Mighty" 596 without the cool looks.  Workhorse that can do it all.  "Sun-brewed Sweet Southern Iced Tea with a bit of lemon on a hot day".  Refreshing.
(?) NOS RCA GZ34 - Forgettable.  So much so that I can't even be bothered to look up what year it is.  A step above stock tubes, not much more. "cool RC cola out of the vending machine at school that never gives you your change back".


----------



## lumdicks (Apr 27, 2022)

normie610 said:


> I’m really curious with the legendary GEC U52 as many have said that it’s the best of the best. Have you had any experience with it?


I have the following in my stable and below ranking is according to my personal preference. To me U52 is a bit soft and lack of dynamics but of course it depends of synergy with the overall system.

1. WE274B
2. WE274A
3. WE422A
4. Mullard GZ34 Metal Base
5. Psvane ACME 274B
6. Sylvania 274B
7. GEC U52
8. KR 274B
9. Mullard GZ37
10. Fivre 5U4G

Amp using is Woo WA22, with Marconi B65 as driver and WE421A as power tube.


----------



## paradoxper

ColSaulTigh said:


> Well, my Woo WA5-LE doesn't arrive until tomorrow, so I can't speak on how they interact with 300B's.  But if my WA6-SE's are any indication, yes, each has their own "personality".  Here's my (very) basic thoughts on each:
> 
> *274B*
> Sophia Princess 274B - Pretty, Warm, Slightly "fuzzy" - not super-clean.  Think "cup of good coffee"
> ...


Thank you for the time and thoughts. I think drink analogies may very well be worse than car analogies when applied to audio.

KISS. WE274B it is.

For a time.


----------



## protoss (Apr 27, 2022)

ADDED* Page 1, 2nd post.

*300B Electrostatic Headphone Amplifiers*

HiFiMan Shangri-La Sr Electrostatic Amplifier $32,000
Woo 3ES Electrostatic $9000

*Non-300 Electrostatic Headphone Amplifiers*

Brio ES electrostatic amplifier $3000
Corsonus Kodachi+ $3600
Z10e electrostatic headphone amp $7000
HeadAmp Aristaeus $4000
Bottlehead - Stat Electrostatic Headphone $1500
Venture Electronics Enterprise E Lite electrostatic amp $3000
AudioValve Solaris $5000
Emmeline “A-10, Thunderbolt II $6500
Headamp BHSE $7000
IFI PRO IESL Electrostatic Headphone $1800
SHANGRI-LA jr amplifier ELECTROSTATIC $4000
Woo Audio GES $1500
Sennheiser HE 1 50,000
Eddie Current Electra Electrostatic Amplifier
Audio Felitsa Audio amp
AURIDUX stax amp
Megatron Electrostatic
DIY T2
Eurydice electrostatic amp
STAX T8000 and all STAX tube amps


----------



## ThanatosVI

protoss said:


> ADDED* Page 1, 2nd post.
> 
> *300B Electrostatic Headphone Amplifiers*
> 
> ...


> Sennheiser HE 1 50,000

I wouldn't count that one, you can't use it with any headphone besides the HE1

The actual energizer is inside the earcups.

However you can add the Eksonic Aeras and T2.


----------



## protoss (Apr 27, 2022)

ThanatosVI said:


> > Sennheiser HE 1 50,000
> 
> I wouldn't count that one, you can't use it with any headphone besides the HE1
> 
> ...


Speaking on Sennheiser, the HE90V had a custom built headphone jack. Totally forgot about it. Added*

Eksonic Aeras added*
I wrote Kerry and spritzer in the section. Ill add this amp. Also, I will leave the HE1 in it for the time being.


----------



## protoss (Apr 27, 2022)

You can custom build your He1, marble to whatever.
I had one on order for 75K and realize my btc is way more precious.
If I ever go back that route I will demand them to place a STAX plug and a headphone jack at the back of the amp.

Money talks unfortunately.


----------



## iFi audio

ColSaulTigh said:


> KR Audio 5U4G "Riccardo Kron Anniversary Edition"



You had to have a Lampizator then


----------



## ThanatosVI

protoss said:


> You can custom build your He1, marble to whatever.
> I had one on order for 75K and realize my btc is way more precious.
> If I ever go back that route I will demand them to place a STAX plug and a headphone jack at the back of the amp.
> 
> Money talks unfortunately.


If I could afford one I'd totally do so, but this won't ever be realistic in my case


----------



## iFi audio

ThanatosVI said:


> If I could afford one I'd totally do so, but this won't ever be realistic in my case



That's interesting, I had no idea these were available as custom designs. But come to think of it, considering the expense it makes sense


----------



## ColSaulTigh

iFi audio said:


> You had to have a Lampizator then


Nope.  I bought it from someone here, in the Classifieds.  I don't remember what amp he was using it with.  I've only owned my Woo WA6-SE's.


----------



## ThanatosVI

iFi audio said:


> That's interesting, I had no idea these were available as custom designs. But come to think of it, considering the expense it makes sense


You go through a quite elaborate ordering process with those. A few phone calls and a personal visit to set it up at your home.

It doesn't only have the price but also the luxury car experience. They accomodate for a lot of special wishes given enough money.


----------



## paradoxper

ThanatosVI said:


> You go through a quite elaborate ordering process with those. A few phone calls and a personal visit to set it up at your home.
> 
> It doesn't only have the price but also the luxury car experience. They accomodate for a lot of special wishes given enough money.


Buy a Valkryia and treat yourself to an extravagant line of blow. And still, save enough money for lunch.


----------



## protoss

HIFIMAN Shangri-La Sr Electrostatic Headphone Amplifier
Four *custom-made 300B tubes*, which deliver warm tone and consistent output power.

I wonder what type of tubes these are? Hifiman making 300B tubes? We are doom?


----------



## ThanatosVI

protoss said:


> HIFIMAN Shangri-La Sr Electrostatic Headphone Amplifier
> Four *custom-made 300B tubes*, which deliver warm tone and consistent output power.
> 
> I wonder what type of tubes these are? Hifiman making 300B tubes? We are doom?


Probably Hifiman labeled tubes produced by Shuguang 

Same thing as PrimaLuna etc.


----------



## iFi audio

ColSaulTigh said:


> Nope. I bought it from someone here, in the Classifieds.



The word is that this one is a great rectifier, even among other 5U4G tubes.


----------



## protoss

ThanatosVI said:


> Probably Hifiman labeled tubes produced by Shuguang


Jeez! That is horrible. Rumor or not I bet Hifiman buy them cheap for $100-200 per tube and sell them for $1000-2500 as a set.

We should all promote good tube makers. The ones with a good history and practice.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

iFi audio said:


> The word is that this one is a great rectifier, even among other 5U4G tubes.


I plan on ordering another one, along with a pair of their 300B matched pairs.


----------



## iFi audio

ColSaulTigh said:


> along with a pair of their 300B matched pairs.



Also by KR Audio? Or are you willing to try WE's latest run that supposedly is very good? And we have Takatsuki and Elrog on top of that


----------



## ColSaulTigh

iFi audio said:


> Also by KR Audio? Or are you willing to try WE's latest run that supposedly is very good? And we have Takatsuki and Elrog on top of that


Specifically, the KR Audio 300B Riccardo Kron Anniversary Editions.

I'll also get some Western Electric, Emission Labs, Takatsuki...I have an obsession with tubes, I guess.

So far, in my Woo WA6-SE's, I've enjoyed the KR 5U4G RK edition over all the rest of my rectifiers.  I'm hoping the 300B's are equally impressive.


----------



## BournePerfect

WE 300Bs just arrived. Insanely gorgeous rosewood colored box, immaculate packaging all around-and a very oddly satisfying experience filling out the old school thick papered warranty card for each tube, each with their respective hologram styled security tape with the serials. My impressions so far ha.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

BournePerfect said:


> WE 300Bs just arrived. Insanely gorgeous rosewood colored box, immaculate packaging all around-and a very oddly satisfying experience filling out the old school thick papered warranty card for each tube, each with their respective hologram styled security tape with the serials. My impressions so far ha.


...and yet, no pictures.

[Sad Emoji]


----------



## normie610

BournePerfect said:


> WE 300Bs just arrived. Insanely gorgeous rosewood colored box, immaculate packaging all around-and a very oddly satisfying experience filling out the old school thick papered warranty card for each tube, each with their respective hologram styled security tape with the serials. My impressions so far ha.


Yes very good packaging indeed. Welcome to the club!


----------



## BournePerfect

ColSaulTigh said:


> ...and yet, no pictures.
> 
> [Sad Emoji]


Blame my pos phone lol. I'll try to get a few uploaded later though.


----------



## ThanatosVI

BournePerfect said:


> WE 300Bs just arrived. Insanely gorgeous rosewood colored box, immaculate packaging all around-and a very oddly satisfying experience filling out the old school thick papered warranty card for each tube, each with their respective hologram styled security tape with the serials. My impressions so far ha.


I was promised the same with the Sophia Electric,  but they come as cheap as it gets without nice wooden box or thick papered warranty card ... at least in germany


----------



## BournePerfect

ThanatosVI said:


> I was promised the same with the Sophia Electric,  but they come as cheap as it gets without nice wooden box or thick papered warranty card ... at least in germany


You'd think it'd be a standard given the price of these glorified light bulbs lol.


----------



## ThanatosVI

BournePerfect said:


> You'd think it'd be a standard given the price of these glorified light bulbs lol.


Yeah fully agree.


----------



## BournePerfect

A few quick and dirties I managed to take last night on my garbage phone:


----------



## BournePerfect (Apr 29, 2022)

Some very early impressions vs my EML mesh: the WEs are slightly bloomier, more angelic vocals, definitely more resolution and microdetail across the board. The EMLs still have a bit more agile, snappy bass, and that great airy electrostatic-like treble that the mesh seems to create. This was straight out of the box too, I expect changes over a lot of burn in hours too, so we'll see what happens.


----------



## bobmysterious

Excited to keep hearing your impressions as they evolve.  You’ve definitely got me interested!


----------



## ColSaulTigh

BournePerfect said:


> Some very early impressions vs my EML mesh: the WEs are slightly bloomier, more angelic vocals, definitely more resolution and microdetail across the board. The EMLs still have a bit more agile, snappy bass, and that great airy electrostatic-like treble that the mesh seems to create. This was straight out of the box too, I expect changes over a lot of burn in hours too, so we'll see what happens.


EML's are next on the list.  Which version do you have, standard, XLS, 320B....???


----------



## BournePerfect

ColSaulTigh said:


> EML's are next on the list.  Which version do you have, standard, XLS, 320B....???


I've got the mesh 300Bs.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

BournePerfect said:


> I've got the mesh 300Bs.


I've got the 274B's already for rectifiers.  Just need to spring for the 300B's.  My amp will take XLS, I believe, so I might go for those.


----------



## BournePerfect

ColSaulTigh said:


> I've got the 274B's already for rectifiers.  Just need to spring for the 300B's.  My amp will take XLS, I believe, so I might go for those.


If you wanna take a stab at something new and different, check out Wathen Audiophile tubes. I like what I've seen and heard so far of their stuff (mainly the Decware forums), and I'll be trying their 300Bs too. Gonna wait til I have a handle on these WE's first though, so probably in a few months.


----------



## ThanatosVI

BournePerfect said:


> If you wanna take a stab at something new and different, check out Wathen Audiophile tubes. I like what I've seen and heard so far of their stuff (mainly the Decware forums), and I'll be trying their 300Bs too. Gonna wait til I have a handle on these WE's first though, so probably in a few months.


Can you link their official Website or a place to order?

I googled them, when they were mentioned the first time but didn't find anything


----------



## paradoxper

BournePerfect said:


> If you wanna take a stab at something new and different, check out Wathen Audiophile tubes. I like what I've seen and heard so far of their stuff (mainly the Decware forums), and I'll be trying their 300Bs too. Gonna wait til I have a handle on these WE's first though, so probably in a few months.


Can you provide any info on whom Wathen is, I've never heard of them.

I just picked up the EML Mesh Globe 45 to compare against WE300B.

Congrats on your WE300B, they're truly fantastic.


----------



## SDBiotek

paradoxper said:


> Can you provide any info on whom Wathen is, I've never heard of them.
> 
> I just picked up the EML Mesh Globe 45 to compare against WE300B.
> 
> Congrats on your WE300B, they're truly fantastic.


Hopefully this will not sound too harsh, but it's not too hard to find them:

https://wathenspeakers.com/wathen-cryotonetrade-tubes.html

Unfortunately there is zero information provided on where exactly the tubes come from or how the "cryo-treatment" is done. I suspect they may be ok Chinese tubes that are "treated" and then sold for considerable markup. It's fine if you want to believe in the cryo magic, that's up to you and your wallet.


----------



## paradoxper

SDBiotek said:


> Hopefully this will not sound too harsh, but it's not too hard to find them:
> 
> https://wathenspeakers.com/wathen-cryotonetrade-tubes.html
> 
> Unfortunately there is zero information provided on where exactly the tubes come from or how the "cryo-treatment" is done. I suspect they may be ok Chinese tubes that are "treated" and then sold for considerable markup. It's fine if you want to believe in the cryo magic, that's up to you and your wallet.


So they're another Sophia Electric.


----------



## BournePerfect

paradoxper said:


> So they're another Sophia Electric.


Steve Deckert seems impressed enough to be nearly hedging the future of Decware on these tubes, in a way at least, fwiw. Counterpoint, perhaps there's some bias since it appears he'll be doing a lot of business with them over time. Here's his thread with some of his impressions, and a few early adopters as well: https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1647622586


----------



## paradoxper

BournePerfect said:


> Steve Deckert seems impressed enough to be nearly hedging the future of Decware on these tubes, in a way at least, fwiw. Counterpoint, perhaps there's some bias since it appears he'll be doing a lot of business with them over time. Here's his thread with some of his impressions, and a few early adopters as well: https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1647622586


I don't know. No real context with comparative reference. Interesting for sure.


----------



## BournePerfect

It was enough to pique my interst at least, having read those boards enough to fairly extrapolate those impressions I feel. And now with the WEs and EMLs, I'm willing to try an unknown at this point. Tak, Elrog and the usual stuff doesn't garner much interest from me anymore after much research, and in comparison, to the WE specifically, let alone the expense. More about trying something different, with a different flavor that supposedly will have a long life like the WE/EMLs are known for.


----------



## paradoxper

I emailed Don and he has already clarified pricing and included how he believes they're also the best 300B.
I was tempted to order but I really need to settle in and compare to what I have now. I will hold off until a more substantial anecdote confirms I should give them a try. They are not cheap tubes.


----------



## protoss

Will a EML 300B XLS work with the Studio B?


----------



## protoss

I talked with a rep and they said the normal EML 300B and XLR is better suited for the Studio B. The mesh version is not good and will produce more noise. 

Any objection?


----------



## bobmysterious

I don’t really have any experience with the other 300B’s in the EML line.  I can tell you, however, that I have no perceptible noise and am able to sweep the volume pot through its entire range in silence.  I’d checked with some members on another forum who are close to the Eddie Current build process and received the green light on the mesh plates from them as well.


----------



## BournePerfect

I believe any 300B should work. Noisy meshes?? What 'rep' are you talking to? I know that certain online retailers will actually REFUSE to sell you the EML mesh depending on what brand of amp you own, no joke...actual amp engineering, plate voltage etc be damned. I assume prior experiences of peeps blowing their tubes early by putting the on an amp not ideal (too high plate voltage) and having warranty issues stem from that.  

Speaking of noisy tubes and warranties...one of my new WE 300B tubes is having issues already.  Basically hearing static intermittently, coinciding with some gas flickering lower in the main body of the tube. Looks like I'm about to find out how good Woo's support is as an authorized dealer for these.


----------



## bobmysterious

Duuuuuuuuuude, that sucks!


----------



## protoss

BournePerfect said:


> What 'rep' are you talking to?


Just chatting with the verdantaudio guy. He gave the green light for the standard and XLR but said the Mesh not good with the B after I laid out the specs for the Studio B for him to analyze. 


BournePerfect said:


> WE 300B tubes is having issues already.  Basically hearing static intermittently, coinciding with some gas flickering


Holy schiit ! I wonder why? Is the WE300B not compatible with the Studio B? This is why I was talking to the rep about. I wanted to know the compatibility with the B.


----------



## BournePerfect

Totally. Just emailed Woo about it to request replacement exchange procedures. I've really been digging these tubes too...definitely have better tone/timbe than the EMLs, basically more realism with instruments, voices etc, and more resolution as previously stated. Very very good...til this particular issue ugh!


----------



## paradoxper

protoss said:


> Just chatting with the verdantaudio guy. He gave the green light for the standard and XLR but said the Mesh not good with the B after I laid out the specs for the Studio B for him to analyze.
> 
> Holy schiit ! I wonder why? Is the WE300B not compatible with the Studio B? This is why I was talking to the rep about. I wanted to know the compatibility with the B.


He knows what he's talking about just as well. You wouldn't want to run the XLS under anyways. They want to be ran harder than standard 300B although if in a pinch XLS under normal 300B operation is fine and importantly safe.

What @BournePerfect says is also applicable as you should simply always follow the strength of the circuits.

Furthermore, the 300B mesh also have different operating points, so you also wouldn't want to throw them in any 300B circuit.


----------



## paradoxper

BournePerfect said:


> Totally. Just emailed Woo about it to request replacement exchange procedures. I've really been digging these tubes too...definitely have better tone/timbe than the EMLs, basically more realism with instruments, voices etc, and more resolution as previously stated. Very very good...til this particular issue ugh!


You should try running them in a bit longer. You'll always be covered under replacement warranty although annoyed to begin with such noise.


----------



## BournePerfect

protoss said:


> Just chatting with the verdantaudio guy. He gave the green light for the standard and XLR but said the Mesh not good with the B after I laid out the specs for the Studio B for him to analyze.
> 
> Holy schiit ! I wonder why? Is the WE300B not compatible with the Studio B? This is why I was talking to the rep about. I wanted to know the compatibility with the B.


Calm down and be rational for once lol. It's a tube issue, it happens. And evidently the verdant guy isn't aware the Studio B runs at a low (for 300b) plate voltage of ~300v, nowhere close to even pushing the meshes hard at all. And nevermind myself, @bobmysterious, and other Studio B owners that have been using the meshes for quite some time with zero issues to speak of. But hey, trust a sales guy over real world application, and science for that matter.


----------



## BournePerfect

paradoxper said:


> You should try running them in a bit longer. You'll always be covered under replacement warranty although annoyed to begin with such noise.


 Yeah I plan to. Never had tube issues before, but not sure if the flicking in the tube body which seems to be the culprit, is cause for concern or not, or a fairly common thing causing this staticky sound issue that may resolve itself potentially with more burn in.

Also agree that the 300B XLS is basically overkill for the 4 watt Studio B, and I'd typically advise either the standard or the mesh for this amp. Or better yet working WEs lol.


----------



## protoss

Im eating a chocolate fudge ice cream pondering on these mesh tubes LOL.


----------



## BournePerfect

protoss said:


> Im eating a chocolate fudge ice cream pondering on these mesh tubes LOL.


Read some tea leaves while you're at it-perhaps you'll find your next epiphany there.


----------



## protoss (May 1, 2022)

Emission Labs 300B (Pair) $690
Sophia Electric Blue Glass Classic 300B Tubes (Pair) $699

I think I will buy both for the price of WE300B.

While my amp is being built I still got some time to think


----------



## paradoxper

BournePerfect said:


> Yeah I plan to. Never had tube issues before, but not sure if the flicking in the tube body which seems to be the culprit, is cause for concern or not, or a fairly common thing causing this staticky sound issue that may resolve itself potentially with more burn in.
> 
> Also agree that the 300B XLS is basically overkill for the 4 watt Studio B, and I'd typically advise either the standard or the mesh for this amp. Or better yet working WEs lol.


It may depend on exactly what type of noise is presenting. If you read through forums, there is a behavior called leaker/gassy which is cause for replacement.


----------



## bobmysterious

If the noise sounds anything like modern rap music, return the tubes immediately… 😂


----------



## paradoxper

I'm use to the dying screech of death metal. Shrugs.


----------



## Towa

EML 300b mesh is perfectly fine in the studio b, no noise whatsoever, been running them in the amp for almost a year, no problems. In fact Craig himself told me in email that he uses them in his own studio b unit way back when I was trying to figure out which 300b to go with, he even recommends them... so I think that right there should tell you they are perfectly fine for that amp


----------



## BournePerfect

paradoxper said:


> It may depend on exactly what type of noise is presenting. If you read through forums, there is a behavior called leaker/gassy which is cause for replacement.


I think this might be the case unfortunately. It at first sounded like a very faint rattling in my right channel-initially thought it may have been a driver issue on my AD2000s. I quickly ruled out everything though, and it's definitely the tube. I mentioned it sounds staticky, but to be more accurate it presents itself as a very faint rattling of sorts, and is completely unaffected from amp/preamp volume etc etc. As we all know the AD2000s are uber sensitive, and I wonder if my ES R10s would actually pick this up. I'll attempt that tomorrow but am still burning the in in the meantime, and awaiting Woo's response.,


----------



## ColSaulTigh

protoss said:


> Emission Labs 300B (Pair) $690
> Sophia Electric Blue Glass Classic 300B Tubes (Pair) $699
> 
> I think I will buy both for the price of WE300B.
> ...


Can't speak for the Aqua tubes, but the regular Sophia Princess 300B's are very microphonic.  Just an FYI.


----------



## protoss

Towa said:


> perfectly fine for that amp


Noted. Thanks



ColSaulTigh said:


> very microphonic


Okay, good to know.


----------



## protoss

What Is A Microphonic Tube?


----------



## protoss

It seems that Emission Lab are the only one that makes "true" mesh plate tubes and everyone else makes "fake" dotted hole metal mesh plates. 

A true mesh plate is made out of metal wire. A fake one down below picture is a metal plate with holes in them but is called a mesh plate. 







This is just a metal plate with poked holes.


----------



## bobmysterious

BournePerfect said:


> I think this might be the case unfortunately. It at first sounded like a very faint rattling in my right channel-initially thought it may have been a driver issue on my AD2000s. I quickly ruled out everything though, and it's definitely the tube. I mentioned it sounds staticky, but to be more accurate it presents itself as a very faint rattling of sorts, and is completely unaffected from amp/preamp volume etc etc. As we all know the AD2000s are uber sensitive, and I wonder if my ES R10s would actually pick this up. I'll attempt that tomorrow but am still burning the in in the meantime, and awaiting Woo's response.,


Any updates?


----------



## BournePerfect

Same consistent crackling unfortunately. Woo just recently responded wanting a few more details, but again I think this issue is here to stay. I expect to be exchanging the in a day or two at this point.


----------



## bobmysterious

What a drag.  Sucks to have it turn out this way.  Hopefully Woo will just exchange them and you won't be without them too long.


----------



## BournePerfect

I'm still 100% content with the EMLs in the meantime...I find both set very complementary just as had hoped. I'll keep you updated once I hear back from Woo.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Do you also have EML rectifiers?


----------



## BournePerfect

No, I don't believe the make a 5AR4, or at least last I checked. I'm using a Wathen Cryotone rectifer currently.


----------



## bobmysterious

I'd love an EML 5AR4/GZ34!  Wish is there was such an animal.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

bobmysterious said:


> I'd love an EML 5AR4/GZ34!  Wish is there was such an animal.


No, but there ARE EML 5U4G's...


----------



## bobmysterious

On the Studio B Craig specifies that only the 5AR4, 5Y3, and 5R4 rectifiers are recommended.  As much as I'd like to stuff some EML candy in there, I can't ignore the man's guidance.


----------



## protoss

bobmysterious said:


> On the Studio B Craig specifies that only the 5AR4, 5Y3, and 5R4 rectifiers are recommended.  As much as I'd like to stuff some EML candy in there, I can't ignore the man's guidance.



By any chance did Craig mention what are the recommended Drivers? 🤔


----------



## BournePerfect

The one he sells with the amp.

Btw way now both WEs are buzzing ***. This doesn't bode well for my hopes of another replacement pair honestly! And again zero issues with my EMLs. @bobmysterious


----------



## Towa

protoss said:


> By any chance did Craig mention what are the recommended Drivers? 🤔


He recommended me the WE 396a/2c51 or the bendix 2c51 for driver swaps when I asked.


----------



## BournePerfect

I'm using the WE driver, but can't say I noticed a huge difference from the stock one that came with the amp. Just a slight touch of warmth if anything...but didn't do an in depth analysis of it either. I noticed more of a difference when I swapped out the rectifier honestly, but again also nothing significant.


----------



## protoss

Towa said:


> He recommended me the WE 396a/2c51 or the bendix 2c51 for driver swaps when I asked.


And did he recommend any 300B tubes to you beside the EML Mesh?


----------



## BournePerfect

bobmysterious said:


> Any updates?



Well other than the 2nd tube now rearing it's head with the same issue-UGH-the Woo guy emailed me back and wants me to continue to run them in for another week to see if it resolves itself. If not, he'll issue an RME at that point. I've got no problems doing that, but also think this particular issue isn't going away. Hope this isn't a sign of WE in general, because honestly finding impressions of these online for these newest  reissues is very very slim, and no issues reported yet from what I can see.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

BournePerfect said:


> Well other than the 2nd tube now rearing it's head with the same issue-UGH-the Woo guy emailed me back and wants me to continue to run them in for another week to see if it resolves itself. If not, he'll issue an RME at that point. I've got no problems doing that, but also think this particular issue isn't going away. Hope this isn't a sign of WE in general, because honestly finding impressions of these online for these newest  reissues is very very slim, and no issues reported yet from what I can see.


Just curious - have you reached out to WE directly to get their input on the issue?  Just a thought...


----------



## paradoxper

BournePerfect said:


> Well other than the 2nd tube now rearing it's head with the same issue-UGH-the Woo guy emailed me back and wants me to continue to run them in for another week to see if it resolves itself. If not, he'll issue an RME at that point. I've got no problems doing that, but also think this particular issue isn't going away. Hope this isn't a sign of WE in general, because honestly finding impressions of these online for these newest  reissues is very very slim, and no issues reported yet from what I can see.


Bummer! You're covered regardless although the inconvenience does hamper listening enjoyment.


----------



## BournePerfect (May 3, 2022)

ColSaulTigh said:


> Just curious - have you reached out to WE directly to get their input on the issue?  Just a thought...



Not yet, because I figured I'd just do an exchange first and see what happens with that next pair. I did submit my warranty cards the first day I received the tubes, so at least I'm covered there for a longer term. Btw neither of these tubes had this issue right out of the bow...it took the first tube maybe 40 hours, and then maybe 50 hours when the 2nd started this issue. Not sure if that means much, but I'm really just hoping this is an outlier...but having the 2nd do the same is what worries me. I LOVE the sound and look of these things, and am hoping for the best.


----------



## Whitigir

BournePerfect said:


> Same consistent crackling unfortunately. Woo just recently responded wanting a few more details, but again I think this issue is here to stay. I expect to be exchanging the in a day or two at this point.


Does the crackling ever go away ? Is there a timing that it would start and then stop ?


----------



## BournePerfect

Initially it was pretty intermittent, and fairly consistent every 30 seconds or so. Now it's almost a permanent fixture in the first tube, but very intermittent and inconsistent on the second tube, thus far. I've only used my AD2Ks so far-which are very sensitive...but getting back my ES R10s (and silver Statement cable yay) tonight, and will see if it's just as audible with those.


----------



## Whitigir

BournePerfect said:


> Initially it was pretty intermittent, and fairly consistent every 30 seconds or so. Now it's almost a permanent fixture in the first tube, but very intermittent and inconsistent on the second tube, thus far. I've only used my AD2Ks so far-which are very sensitive...but getting back my ES R10s (and silver Statement cable yay) tonight, and will see if it's just as audible with those.


Does it stop after 30 minutes or so ?


----------



## BournePerfect

Whitigir said:


> Does it stop after 30 minutes or so ?


Nope! Thins isn't the usual opening snap crackle and pops like that...and it seems to somewhat coincide with some flickering in the body of the tube...by that I mean the blue gases kinda flicker of and on very rapidly here and there...be not nearly as frequently as the audio issue. It's even audible during musis...at least softer passages. And of course I narrowed it down to the tubes using all the usual methods-simplest was literally unplugging everything but the amp, no source input, and no volume (or full volume for that matter)...and the sound still does the exact same thing, but doesn't change with volume in the slightest.

Experienced something similar before? Or something else I might need to check?


----------



## normie610

BournePerfect said:


> Nope! Thins isn't the usual opening snap crackle and pops like that...and it seems to somewhat coincide with some flickering in the body of the tube...by that I mean the blue gases kinda flicker of and on very rapidly here and there...be not nearly as frequently as the audio issue. It's even audible during musis...at least softer passages. And of course I narrowed it down to the tubes using all the usual methods-simplest was literally unplugging everything but the amp, no source input, and no volume (or full volume for that matter)...and the sound still does the exact same thing, but doesn't change with volume in the slightest.
> 
> Experienced something similar before? Or something else I might need to check?


You have faulty tubes, most probably they have a gas leak. I had the exact same problem with one tube, WE has issued the RMA for me to send it back and have it replaced, but because there’s too much hassle with the customs in my country, I decided to just buy another tube. Thankfully the new one works perfectly.


----------



## Whitigir

BournePerfect said:


> Nope! Thins isn't the usual opening snap crackle and pops like that...and it seems to somewhat coincide with some flickering in the body of the tube...by that I mean the blue gases kinda flicker of and on very rapidly here and there...be not nearly as frequently as the audio issue. It's even audible during musis...at least softer passages. And of course I narrowed it down to the tubes using all the usual methods-simplest was literally unplugging everything but the amp, no source input, and no volume (or full volume for that matter)...and the sound still does the exact same thing, but doesn't change with volume in the slightest.
> 
> Experienced something similar before? Or something else I might need to check?


I see, then that is a faulty tube of it doesn’t go away after 20 minutes or so.  One of my WE300B has that issues when first turning on, it would sound like the constructions are expanding due to heat, crackling and hissing with gases flickering, but it goes away after 15-20 minutes or so.  Coincidentally, it never happened in the first 20 hours :/ 

I sent it back to WE, and the owner claimed that it is a typical behavior for the tubes, just as long as it goes away after 15-20 minutes then it is working as intended, and send it back to me.  

It just bothered me that other tubes don’t have similar traits.  Though, the sound is amazing after 20 minutes though


----------



## ColSaulTigh

normie610 said:


> You have faulty tubes, most probably they have a gas leak. I had the exact same problem with one tube, WE has issued the RMA for me to send it back and have it replaced, but because there’s too much hassle with the customs in my country, I decided to just buy another tube. Thankfully the new one works perfectly.


Now that you have a new one on the way, why not ship out the bad one and have a "spare"?


----------



## paradoxper

Here's a pair of very unique WE300B with differing plate construction confirmed by Western Electric.

I should flip these for $20k but where's the fun in not listening to history.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

paradoxper said:


> Here's a pair of very unique WE300B with differing plate construction confirmed by Western Electric.
> 
> I should flip these for $20k but where's the fun in not listening to history.


Exactly!  It's like people who buy supercars and never drive them.  If wanted to just look at the car, I'd buy a photo of one.


----------



## normie610 (May 3, 2022)

ColSaulTigh said:


> Now that you have a new one on the way, why not ship out the bad one and have a "spare"?


Oh I’ve had the new one since last year actually. And it’s difficult to send the bad one, the regulation here doesn’t allow an individual to send a return item abroad. Even if somehow I can do that, I will have to pay the full customs duty when I receive the new one, as if I’ve made a completely new purchase.


----------



## normie610

paradoxper said:


> Here's a pair of very unique WE300B with differing plate construction confirmed by Western Electric.
> 
> I should flip these for $20k but where's the fun in not listening to history.


Just flip them for $40k


----------



## paradoxper

normie610 said:


> Just flip them for $40k


I have an inkling this anomaly might just last 100,000 hours. Let them flip 'em when i'm dead.


----------



## normie610

paradoxper said:


> I have an inkling this anomaly might just last 100,000 hours. Let them flip 'em when i'm dead.


100k hours is just too short, no? 😜


----------



## paradoxper

normie610 said:


> 100k hours is just too short, no? 😜


If you do the math, life ain't long.


----------



## bobmysterious

protoss said:


> By any chance did Craig mention what are the recommended Drivers? 🤔


Sorry for the departure, just got home from work and wanted to reply to a comment from this morning.  In the manual Craig says that "the 5670W may be substituted with the 2C51, 6N3P, 6854, 396A.  No other tubes are recommended."


----------



## normie610 (May 3, 2022)

Today I’m back with WE300B, Mullard CV1377 brown base and Linlai E-6SL7 combo after a week with EML 5U4G + 300B XLS and Tung Sol 6SU7GTY. I much prefer the WE combo, the bass is a lot more visceral. Listening with the TC.


----------



## paradoxper (May 3, 2022)

normie610 said:


> Today I’m back with WE300B, Mullard CV1377 brown base and Linlai E-6SL7 combo after a week with EML 5U 300B XLS and Tung Sol 6SU7GTY. I much prefer the WE combo, the bass is a lot more visceral. Listening with the TC.


You fantastic bastardd.

Quick to long aside: do you find it curious WE long had a reputation for being a little soft at the extreme ends yet besides the large staging characteristics and known quantity midrange presence, they're really strongly bass monsters. Present bloom to radiate but clearly punched out and as you say visceral.

My EML 300 or 45 Globe are distinct in showing a more loose mellow control.

I was thinking about this as 300B are lower power applications but I've never heard my TC so complete, so beastly boosted.


----------



## normie610

paradoxper said:


> You fantastic bastardd.
> 
> Quick to long aside: do you find it curious WE long had a reputation for being a little soft at the extreme ends yet besides the large staging characteristics and known quantity midrange presence, they're really strongly bass monsters. Present bloom to radiate but clearly punched out and as you say visceral.
> 
> ...


Yes I’m a bit baffled by that reputation since I found the bass to be absolutely incredible. Could it be due to the combo with CFA3? I’ve never listened to WE on a *300B amp *though, so perhaps that characteristic is true with 300B amps.


----------



## protoss

@bobmysterious
Thanks.

Wanted the Balancing Act but no one wanted to sell so I ended up buying the Studio B 300B. Hopefully, Craig has it built by July. Going to get the EML 300B Mesh as the main tube now.


----------



## paradoxper (May 3, 2022)

normie610 said:


> Yes I’m a bit baffled by that reputation since I found the bass to be absolutely incredible. Could it be due to the combo with CFA3? I’ve never listened to WE on a *300B amp *though, so perhaps that characteristic is true with 300B amps.


I do consider the CFA3 a masterful exploitation but would acknowledge other 300B amps also proving a, say, meaty sound.

It's tough as you listen to a 2A3 Stellaris lacking all the balls of any 300B which generalities dictate, it shouldn't.

No circuits are equivalent.


----------



## bobmysterious

protoss said:


> @bobmysterious
> Thanks.
> 
> Wanted the Balancing Act but no one wanted to sell so I ended up buying the Studio B 300B. Hopefully, Craig has it built by July. Going to get the EML 300B Mesh as the main tube now.


I really think you’re gonna be quite happy with both. 👍


----------



## iFi audio

ColSaulTigh said:


> Specifically, the KR Audio 300B Riccardo Kron Anniversary Editions.
> 
> I'll also get some Western Electric, Emission Labs, Takatsuki...I have an obsession with tubes, I guess.



From what I can tell your obsession is very nicely targeted. Reading about how different 300B tubes compare is always fun! Keep them coming please


----------



## iFi audio

normie610 said:


> I’ve never listened to WE on a *300B amp *though, so perhaps that characteristic is true with 300B amps.



300Bs in general aren't the hardest hitting tubes out there. From what I can tell they're primarily known for midrange magic and specific elegance typical only for them.


----------



## Whitigir

Overkill you said ? Low impedances isn’t good with output transformers amplifier you said ? Merely 8W each channel 

😍🥰


----------



## protoss

I talked with Craig. He approved both the WE300B and EML 300B mesh.
He mentions it is just different, not picking which one is better.
Both work with Studio B.


----------



## BournePerfect

They are 300B tubes. It is a 300B amp. It's been verified with MANY hands on reports that even the 2.5V meshes work as well as the standard 300 Bs.


----------



## protoss (May 4, 2022)

*WA23 LUNA*
Headphone Amplifier/Preamplifier
Sale Price: $7,999.00
Single-ended
Power tube: 2A3 x 2, driver tube: 6C45 x 2, rectifier tube: 5U4G x 1


----------



## ThanatosVI

protoss said:


> *WA23 LUNA*
> Headphone Amplifier/Preamplifier
> Sale Price: $7,999.00
> Single-ended
> Power tube: 2A3 x 2, driver tube: 6C45 x 2, rectifier tube: 5U4G x 1


Just as expensive as the Wa33, fml...


----------



## iFi audio

ThanatosVI said:


> Just as expensive as the Wa33, fml...



They're not the same from what I can tell. WA23 Luna is a one-box single-ended design that's a bit more affordable. WA33 is a fully balanced two-box product. There's place for each


----------



## ThanatosVI

iFi audio said:


> They're not the same from what I can tell. WA23 Luna is a one-box single-ended design that's a bit more affordable. WA33 is a fully balanced two-box product. There's place for each


The Wa23 comes with external power unit, similar to the Nirvana. 

Of course a SET amp is a completely different Design than the push pull Wa33.

So they are just different amplifiers. I wouldn't call the Wa23 "more affordable " though, the price difference is very small


----------



## iFi audio

ThanatosVI said:


> Of course a SET amp is a completely different Design than the push pull Wa33.



Yup, that alone changes a lot. Thanks for mentioning this!



ThanatosVI said:


> I wouldn't call the Wa23 "more affordable " though, the price difference is very small



I wrote that only because both prices weren't identical, but I agree, it's a small difference indeed.


----------



## ThanatosVI

iFi audio said:


> Yup, that alone changes a lot. Thanks for mentioning this!
> 
> 
> 
> I wrote that only because both prices weren't identical, but I agree, it's a small difference indeed.


I actually checked the Homepage just now. 
The 7999$ is the introductory price. 

After that it will be more expensive than the Wa33.

So keep that in mind guys, for the beginning you can save a grand.


----------



## paradoxper

ThanatosVI said:


> I actually checked the Homepage just now.
> The 7999$ is the introductory price.
> 
> After that it will be more expensive than the Wa33.
> ...


It'd be one of the very few pieces I ignore due to aesthetics. It's wonky and not complimentary to a beautiful tube display.


----------



## ThanatosVI

paradoxper said:


> It'd be one of the very few pieces I ignore due to aesthetics. It's wonky and not complimentary to a beautiful tube display.


I fully agree with you there.

When I heard about "A not fully balanced Wa33 with only a pair of 2A3" I imagined a Wa33 with the width of a Wa22. Which would still look cool, imo.

However the W23 Luna doesn't please my sense for aesthetics.


----------



## BournePerfect

Agreed, the looks alone would keep me away. Truly hideous design. And I LOVE the looks of most of the Woo stuff.


----------



## protoss

Oh schiit!

Woo is laying down new items like it is raining!

*ES8 Electrostatic Headphone Amplifier / Preamplifier*
Sale Price:2,699.00

Tubes: EL84 power x 4, 8532 driver x 4


----------



## protoss

I think Woo discontinued the Woo GES ($1500) with the *ES8 *($3000)

I have a feeling the BHSE will get a new update soon or more products from Headamp.


----------



## ThanatosVI

protoss said:


> Oh schiit!
> 
> Woo is laying down new items like it is raining!
> 
> ...


That's quite nice pricing if it turns out to be a competitive estat amp


----------



## leftside

paradoxper said:


> It'd be one of the very few pieces I ignore due to aesthetics. It's wonky and not complimentary to a beautiful tube display.


I'm glad you said it before me. I thought it was simply a case of "beauty is in the eye of the beholder". I usually really like the aesthetics of Woo amps.


----------



## bobmysterious

@BournePerfect what's the score on those tubes, are they still hissing at you?


----------



## BournePerfect

bobmysterious said:


> @BournePerfect what's the score on those tubes, are they still hissing at you?


A bit less frequently now, but still happening off and on. I'm gonna give em a couple more days before deciding on an exchange or not.


----------



## bobmysterious

How’s the sound shaping up when it’s not happening?  Do they still sound pretty good?


----------



## BournePerfect

They sound very very good...totally worth it. Mainly better tone and timbre...more realistic sounds if you will...main difference is again just a lil softer in bass compared to the EMLs, and the airy highs are still slightly behind the EMLs...so my initial impressions have stood. Love em both, for different reasons. Totally complementary imo.


----------



## paradoxper

BournePerfect said:


> They sound very very good...totally worth it. Mainly better tone and timbre...more realistic sounds if you will...main difference is again just a lil softer in bass compared to the EMLs, and the airy highs are still slightly behind the EMLs...so my initial impressions have stood. Love em both, for different reasons. Totally complementary imo.


Can we circle back to Wathen CryoTone. You gonna bite? Don offered they have a satisfaction guarantee which is nice -- principally it irks me he doesn't have an established reference for sound as implication is he's never heard the WE300B.


----------



## BournePerfect

Yeah I'm definitely going to. Might even try those before getting a replacement WE pairs, but first things first. Already have the Wathen 5ar4, and basically bought it for longevity claims, vs any sound changes it might have offered. I'm down for giving his 300Bs a hot, pricewise very similar to the EML mesh.


----------



## BournePerfect

Wonder if he would cryo some WEs if I sent him some lol.


----------



## paradoxper (May 11, 2022)

BournePerfect said:


> Wonder if he would cryo some WEs if I sent him some lol.


This is interesting. I crawled a bunch of sources, seemingly the tube type is not of consideration (they also only work with the OEM) due to the post processing. Deckert is adamant their cryo treatment fundamentally changes the tube. A longer life is a direct positive, my only concern remains across the board of tube variants, they seem to sound on the more sharp / clinical spectrum.

What worries me, the smaller tube types were focus for development -- it was referenced that a particular process for 300B or other DHT.

A little trepidation on the overall timeline of development.


----------



## bobmysterious

BournePerfect said:


> They sound very very good...totally worth it. Mainly better tone and timbre...more realistic sounds if you will...main difference is again just a lil softer in bass compared to the EMLs, and the airy highs are still slightly behind the EMLs...so my initial impressions have stood. Love em both, for different reasons. Totally complementary imo.


I'm kind of a detail-head.  Of the two, which would you say hits that mark more?


----------



## BournePerfect (May 11, 2022)

bobmysterious said:


> I'm kind of a detail-head.  Of the two, which would you say hits that mark more?


I'm a detail nut too, in general. Although I never felt the EMLs were lacking in that dept (still don't, in fact)...the WEs have more detail for sure. But mainly that inner resolution, microplankton if you will. But...they simultaneously come across less clinical sounding than the EML...basically because that detail is completely natural sounding, not trying to shout at you. It's simply there, but a natural part of the music. EML sounds more ss in direct comparison, and WE more musical, but still more technical, though sounding less technical almost, because you're a lil more lost in the music imo. But absolutely worth owning both imo, based on headphone synergy. I still prefer the EMLs with my AD2000 because those stat like highs, speed, and very punchy, quick bass plays to the AT's strengths best...and the WEs are almost too much of a good thing with the AT's when it comes to their already stellar traits of magical guitars and female vocals...so mood/genre dependent. WEs are a better match with my ES R10s, where I feel they can use a bit more inner resolution to kind of flesh out the whole soundstage, and paint a more coherent picture if you will.


----------



## protoss

Wathen CryoTone 300B-WC - https://www.wathenspeakers.com/store/p56/300B-WC.html looks interesting but there are zero reviews on them...

$966 for a pair. Its tough to blindly buy....


----------



## paradoxper (May 11, 2022)

protoss said:


> Wathen CryoTone 300B-WC - https://www.wathenspeakers.com/store/p56/300B-WC.html looks interesting but there are zero reviews on them...
> 
> $966 for a pair. Its tough to blindly buy....


We should do a group buy.

I'm going to bite due to their gracious return policy.


----------



## bobmysterious

BournePerfect said:


> I'm a detail nut too, in general. Although I never felt the EMLs were lacking in that dept (still don't, in fact)...the WEs have more detail for sure. But mainly that inner resolution, microplankton if you will. But...they simultaneously come across less clinical sounding than the EML...basically because that detail is completely natural sounding, not trying to shout at you. It's simply there, but a natural part of the music. EML sounds more ss in direct comparison, and WE more musical, but still more technical, though sounding less technical almost, because you're a lil more lost in the music imo. But absolutely worth owning both imo, based on headphone synergy. I still prefer the EMLs with my AD2000 because those stat like highs, speed, and very punchy, quick bass plays to the AT's strengths best...and the WEs are almost too much of a good thing with the AT's when it comes to their already stellar traits of magical guitars and female vocals...so mood/genre dependent. WEs are a better match with my ES R10s, where I feel they can use a bit more inner resolution to kind of flesh out the whole soundstage, and paint a more coherent picture if you will.


Dude!  Thanks so much for the thoughtful response, that's really helpful!


----------



## protoss (May 11, 2022)

Added first page 3rd post*

This list is for people on a tight budget and refuse to pay over *$1000* for tubes.
Price for a pair of 300B tubes

Sophia Electric Princess 300B (Pair)  $475
Sophia Electric Blue glass Classic 300B tube (Pair) $699
Sophia Electric Globe Classic 300B tube (Pair) $699
Emission Labs 300B (Pair) $690
Emission Labs 300B XLS (Pair) $820
Emission Labs 300B Mesh (Pair) $845
KR 300B BALLOON $755
KR 300B $707
KR 300B XLS $760
Linlai™ Global E-300B vacuum tubes (pair) $899
Linlai™ Global WE Replica 300B Vacuum Tubes (pair) $699
300B-WC (Pair) $966
WE300B Psvane Tube (Pair) $899
GENALEX - GOLD LION PX-300B (Pair) $540
ELECTRO-HARMONIX 300B GOLD GRID (Pair)  $430
JJ 300B (Pair) $291
SHUGUANG 300B-98 (Pair) $260


----------



## ColSaulTigh

protoss said:


> Added first page 3rd post*
> 
> This list is for people on a tight budget and refuse to pay over *$1000* for tubes.
> Price for a pair of 300B tubes
> ...


You missed the KR-Audio 300B's:


----------



## BournePerfect

Factoring in longevity some of those 'cheap' ones may actually be considered the ripoffs.


----------



## protoss

*Electro-Harmonix*, a New York based company that rebrands tubes?

Most of their 300Bs are around $220 and are Russian source.
https://www.thetubestore.com/electro-harmonix-300b-gold-grid


----------



## protoss

Russian product's and specifically Russian tubes are being sanction heavy. 

"Out of Stock" everywhere soon. So stack up on some Russian 300B before its too late.


----------



## ThanatosVI

protoss said:


> Russian product's and specifically Russian tubes are being sanction heavy.
> 
> "Out of Stock" everywhere soon. So stack up on some Russian 300B before its too late.


300Bs have so many non Russian alternatives that it's easy to replace them with Western or Chinese tubes.

KT series tubes are hard to come by now. There are only extremely few manufacturers outside of russia. I really hope Western Electric will produce KT88 or KT150 in the future


----------



## protoss

ThanatosVI said:


> 300Bs have so many non Russian alternatives that it's easy to replace them with Western or Chinese tubes.
> 
> KT series tubes are hard to come by now. There are only extremely few manufacturers outside of russia. I really hope Western Electric will produce KT88 or KT150 in the future



I'm thinking more of a collector/hoarder now for these tubes. I do not want Chinese companies to be the dominant class of 300B's in the future thou, unfortunately they will be one day.


----------



## nonnegaard

This list is insane. On the hunt for the prefect tube amp currently, can definitely learn something here!


----------



## protoss

Talk with Donald from DNA Audio

I asked him if he can do a 300B amp and he said yes!

It will be his most expensive amp to make because of the custom built process. Roughly *$8000+ *

He will use the DNA Stellaris case and build the 300B around it. 

I will call this DNA Stellaris 300B (Custom build) $8000+
ADDED*


----------



## bobmysterious

Did you order it?


----------



## protoss

bobmysterious said:


> Did you order it?


Ordered the Studio B.
Negotiating with a legendary builder for his last build of something. Wont tell yet. Its a Tube amp and bloody expensive. 
And I am contemplating between the Stellaris 300B or DNA Stratus 2A3

I am 90% leaning towards the Stratus 2A3 to balance with the Studio and mystery amp


----------



## bobmysterious

F*ck dude.  Go big or go home, right?


----------



## bfin3

Search Radu or Shiny Eyes 300b. I've always wanted to pull the trigger but there's just not enough information on his custom 300B headphone amp. https://simplepleasuretubeamps.com/end-game-dht-headphone-amp/


----------



## L0rdGwyn

protoss said:


> Ordered the Studio B.
> Negotiating with a legendary builder for his last build of something. Wont tell yet. Its a Tube amp and bloody expensive.
> And I am contemplating between the Stellaris 300B or DNA Stratus 2A3
> 
> I am 90% leaning towards the Stratus 2A3 to balance with the Studio and mystery amp



Just curious - why are you buying potentially three 300B SET designs?  Do you intend to keep all three?


----------



## Tachikoma

> Audio Felitsa Audio amp



This really shouldn't be included in the list, given the scummy behavior shown by the seller.

(https://www.head-fi.org/threads/kg-cfa3-headphone-amp.938064/page-47)


----------



## protoss (May 18, 2022)

L0rdGwyn said:


> Just curious


Correction.

1. 300B Amplifier
2. 12AU7/12AX7 Amplifier
3. 2A3 Amplifier

I will have 3 different tube amps. Made by two soon to be retire builders and most likely the third will be the DNA 2A3 Stratus.

My best looking amp, the most expensive one and probably will be the best sounding one will be the 12AU7/12AX7 Amplifier.

I will 100% will be keeping the first 2 because most will never get a chance to own a brand new version of those two builds. 

We will soon see


----------



## L0rdGwyn

protoss said:


> Correction.
> 
> 1. 300B Amplifier
> 2. 12AU7/12AX7 Amplifier
> ...



Oh I see, gotcha, well that will be a nice variety.  What kind of topology for this 12AU7 / 12AX7 design?  That is an unusual choice given neither one produces significant power, unless it is a hybrid circuit?


----------



## protoss (May 18, 2022)

L0rdGwyn said:


> Oh I see, gotcha, well that will be a nice variety.  What kind of topology for this 12AU7 / 12AX7 design?  That is an unusual choice given neither one produces significant power, unless it is a hybrid circuit?


Wont say anymore until I get it. Don't want to jinx this.
I message you directly here with pictures and impressions.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

protoss said:


> Wont say anymore until I get it. Don't want to jinx this.
> I message you directly here with pictures and impressions.



Well I will look forward to seeing the 12AU7 amplifier from this mysterious semi-retired amp legend.  If I had noticed your thread sooner, maybe I could've helped answer some of your questions, but seems I am late to the party.


----------



## protoss

L0rdGwyn said:


> seems I am late to the party.


Never late to a party, but yeah you are late  

I think we all discover about 95% of all 300B headphone tube amps. We also found all the best 300B tubes. The last 5% will be obscure and DIY amps. 

For me, its time to pick and choose which one I want and I narrow it down to the 3 I listed above. 
Each one is being built currently beside the DNA as I haven't fully decided on it.


----------



## protoss (May 18, 2022)

*DNA Stratus Headphone 2a3 Amp $4300*

Here's 2 great review. Written and video. The written review is great 

https://forum.headphones.com/t/dna-stratus-v4-vs-woo-wa5-le-gen-2-vs-lta-mz3/13625


----------



## ThanatosVI

protoss said:


> Never late to a party, but yeah you are late
> 
> I think we all discover about 95% of all 300B headphone tube amps. We also found all the best 300B tubes. The last 5% will be obscure and DIY amps.
> 
> ...


Since you put so much effort into this.
What were the reasons for this 300B above all the others?


----------



## paradoxper

ThanatosVI said:


> Since you put so much effort into this.
> What were the reasons for this 300B above all the others?


45 runs some circles around the 300B.


----------



## protoss

ThanatosVI said:


> reasons


Some called the 2000-2010 ish the golden era of amp builds from Eddie current to others. 
Now, these guys are all retired and about to retire, so I want to own these fascinating amps as a collector and admire these extraordinary builds. Even if it sucks.

Collecting Qualia's, L3000, R10s, K1000, Omegas, etch, gets boring after a while. I'm pretty sure you guys seen my many threads on those. 
Meh...


----------



## ThanatosVI

protoss said:


> Some called the 2000-2010 ish the golden era of amp builds from Eddie current to others.
> Now, these guys are all retired and about to retire, so I want to own these fascinating amps as a collector and admire these extraordinary builds. Even if it sucks.
> 
> Collecting Qualia's, L3000, R10s, K1000, Omegas, etch, gets boring after a while. I'm pretty sure you guys seen my many threads on those.
> Meh...


Fair enough


----------



## leftside

protoss said:


> Some called the 2000-2010 ish the golden era of amp builds from Eddie current to others.
> Now, these guys are all retired and about to retire, so I want to own these fascinating amps as a collector and admire these extraordinary builds. Even if it sucks.
> 
> Collecting Qualia's, L3000, R10s, K1000, Omegas, etch, gets boring after a while. I'm pretty sure you guys seen my many threads on those.
> Meh...


If you are a collector of amps, it would be interesting to read your comparisons of some of the well known amps against some of the custom built amps on here. Perhaps consider getting yourself in the queue for these amps? Both of these companies can make 300B amps custom built to order:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/1101-audio-custom-crafted-headphone-amps.919425/page-63
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/oblivion-ultrasonic-studios.902926/page-351

My 300B amp is from Glenn, but unfortunately it appears he isn't making amps any more:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/2359glenn-studio.600110/page-2637


----------



## L0rdGwyn (May 18, 2022)

protoss said:


> Now, these guys are all retired and about to retire, so I want to own these fascinating amps as a collector and admire these extraordinary builds. Even if it sucks.



Who will take up their mantle I wonder 

My preference for DHT amplifiers is fixed bias over cathode bias.  I have also found an improvement using interstage transformer coupling over capacitor coupling, but it is more difficult to implement and the quality of the transformers is critical.  Choice of driver is key as well, especially for a 300B with its high Miller capacitance.  I prefer regulated power supplies over passive supplies.

This is from a DIYers standpoint, I'm not sure what amplifier makers in the commercial arena come closest to using this type of circuit, not many.  But if you can get a fixed bias amplifier over a cathode bias one, the sound is typically better as you remove the need for a bypass capacitor in the output tube's cathode circuit.  A fixed bias amplifier will usually have some sort of ammeters to indicate the DC bias current for manual adjustment.  The power supply is more complex to design, so it is less common than cathode bias.  Finding an interstage transformer coupled AND fixed bias amplifier is highly unlikely unless it is custom made, but that is the ideal for a two-stage DHT amplifier IMO, even better if it is using a voltage regulated power supply.

I think I saw a question somewhere asking if running the tubes "hard" was beneficial.  IME, assuming you have a "hot" and a "cold" bias point, if the cold bias point is still in a linear operating region, there should be very little difference in the sound, especially when it comes to headphones which don't need anywhere near the peak power a 300B can provide.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Just to change the subject for a minute...

BAM!  Takatsuki 300Bs and Takatsuki 274Bs.  Now I just need the Melz to get here...


----------



## protoss

ColSaulTigh said:


> Just to change the subject for a minute...
> 
> BAM!  Takatsuki 300Bs and Takatsuki 274Bs.  Now I just need the Melz to get here...



Nice! How it sounds to you? 

I hate that the "lettering" is facing the back of the amp. I like to see the yellow lettering in front of me.


----------



## Ciggavelli

ColSaulTigh said:


> Just to change the subject for a minute...
> 
> BAM!  Takatsuki 300Bs and Takatsuki 274Bs.  Now I just need the Melz to get here...


I have the same setup on my 3ES Elite. Though I’m a bit concerned about longevity. The First Tak 274B I had on my WA33 lasted 2 years. I guess that’s not terrible, but other tubes have lasted longer in the same setup. Aside from that, Tak tubes sound amazing


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Bearing in mind they need time to burn in, they sound extremely resolving and precise.  These are tubes for folks who want every nuisance and detail.  Extremely resolving, great instrument placement, and overall sound is clean and clear (doesn't lean heavily one way or the other.)


----------



## leftside

protoss said:


> Nice! How it sounds to you?
> 
> I hate that the "lettering" is facing the back of the amp. I like to see the yellow lettering in front of me.


I got lucky with the tube lettering this time and the socket alignment on my amp:


----------



## leftside

ColSaulTigh said:


> Just to change the subject for a minute...
> 
> BAM!  Takatsuki 300Bs and Takatsuki 274Bs.  Now I just need the Melz to get here...


I've been known to roll a few tubes in my time, but when I got the 300B amp I decided to just get the Taks and stick with those due to the cost of tubes. So far I've avoided getting any other 300B's, but I would like to try the new WE.


----------



## protoss

leftside said:


> I got lucky with the tube lettering this time and the socket alignment on my amp:



Nice, I wonder why some tubes are not lettering alignment with amps?

Nice amp, is that your Glenn 300B? Custom build? Whats the name?


----------



## L0rdGwyn

protoss said:


> Nice, I wonder why some tubes are not lettering alignment with amps?



It is common with UX4 base directly-heated triodes for the labeling to be oriented toward the filament pins, pins 1 and 4.  So if you want the labeling forward for aesthetic reasons, the sockets should be positioned such that pins 1 and 4 are toward the front of the amp.  It looks like Woo Audio oriented pins 1 and 4 toward the back with pins 2 and 3 toward the front, so the labeling is facing backwards in this case.


----------



## leftside

protoss said:


> Nice, I wonder why some tubes are not lettering alignment with amps?
> 
> Nice amp, is that your Glenn 300B? Custom build? Whats the name?


Different amps have different socket alignment. And back in the day with NOS tubes I don't think it was much of a concern where the lettering went 

The amp is simply called "Glenn 300B". Custom build. I think this might have been the last 300B that Glenn built (12 built in total with varying specs/components). Here are some of the details:

Dueland capacitors
Goldpoint 47 steps attenuator
Neotech OCC copper wiring
Furutech IEC
Furutech RCA sockets
ViaBlue spikes
Lundahl transformers, 
C3G drivers


----------



## llamaluv

Just posted a pair of Taks for your consideration. 

Thank you kindly.


----------



## Whitigir

I love Lundahl !! Amazing stuff.  My amp is all stocked up with it


----------



## BournePerfect




----------



## BournePerfect

Went this far with no Moth stuff, ***.


----------



## soulrider4ever

After reviewing the list I pulled the trigger on a LIO DHT! Currently running the stock electro-harmonic 2A3 Gold Grid.  Just using as a preamp for now. Let me tell you this unit is a revelation.  Music has never sounded so real, so life like in my system and I don’t even have premium tubes in here yet!  Love it!


----------



## BournePerfect

Hard to beat dht amps, although I'm partial to 300B vs 2A3 myself. Congrats on the new toy!


----------



## Whitigir

BournePerfect said:


> Hard to beat dht amps, although I'm partial to 300B vs 2A3 myself. Congrats on the new toy!


Get TU-8900. It plays both tubes


----------



## BournePerfect

I mean, I stayed with the better one.  With that being said, I still might pull the trigger on the 2a3 Studio 'b' for some variety. Hard to care though when I'm so content with my current rig.


----------



## soulrider4ever

Whitigir said:


> Get TU-8900. It plays both tubes


So does the DHT LIO - it has dip switches for voltage for 2.5v, 4v, or 5v - pretty neat! Looking forward to trying some 300B in this!


----------



## BournePerfect

Nice!


----------



## protoss

soulrider4ever said:


> After reviewing the list I pulled the trigger on a LIO DHT! Currently running the stock electro-harmonic 2A3 Gold Grid.  Just using as a preamp for now. Let me tell you this unit is a revelation.  Music has never sounded so real, so life like in my system and I don’t even have premium tubes in here yet!  Love it!


Nice!

I am super jelly. 
Beautiful amplifier you have there!


----------



## jonathan c

ColSaulTigh said:


> Bearing in mind they need time to burn in, they sound extremely resolving and precise.  These are tubes for folks who want every nuisance and detail.  Extremely resolving, great instrument placement, and overall sound is clean and clear (doesn't lean heavily one way or the other.)


‘nuisance’?! 😳, not ‘nuance’ ?!…🤣🤣


----------



## Whitigir (May 28, 2022)

jonathan c said:


> ‘nuisance’?! 😳, not ‘nuance’ ?!…🤣🤣


Some times I do hate my autocorrect when it does that obvious 🤣🤣


----------



## ColSaulTigh

jonathan c said:


> ‘nuisance’?! 😳, not ‘nuance’ ?!…🤣🤣


I suppose that depends on what kind of music you prefer vs. what kind you're listening to...


----------



## soulrider4ever (May 29, 2022)

protoss said:


> Nice!
> 
> I am super jelly.
> Beautiful amplifier you have there!


Interestingly enough it has no amplifier module at all (as I had it configured).  A pure DHT linestage . Now I just need to find a 300B that won’t break the bank or be too microphonic. Looking at the Sophia Electric which has both a 2A3 or 300B option under $500.  I’ve no idea which direction to go LOL!

Would love to get a Tak one day but I need to take a break spending all this $$$ LoL.


----------



## thinker

With Sennheiser HD-800 i don't know anything better than OTL 300B


----------



## paradoxper

soulrider4ever said:


> Interestingly enough it has no amplifier module at all (as I had it configured).  A pure DHT linestage . Now I just need to find a 300B that won’t break the bank or be too microphonic. Looking at the Sophia Electric which has both a 2A3 or 300B option under $500.  I’ve no idea which direction to go LOL!
> 
> Would love to get a Tak one day but I need to take a break spending all this $$$ LoL.


Why shortchange yourself. Grab Taks or WE. Sophia Electric are pretty bog.


----------



## soulrider4ever

paradoxper said:


> Why shortchange yourself. Grab Taks or WE. Sophia Electric are pretty bog.


Oh I will eventually 100% - just a matter of time.  Just looking for a stop gap 300B to compare to the stock 2A3 - as I’ve just dropped a pretty penny on the LIO, I need to take a spending break for awhile.  If no such thing exists worth the $ then I suppose I’ll just enjoy as is until I’m ready to spend another $2k.


----------



## paradoxper

soulrider4ever said:


> Oh I will eventually 100% - just a matter of time.  Just looking for a stop gap 300B to compare to the stock 2A3 - as I’ve just dropped a pretty penny on the LIO, I need to take a spending break for awhile.  If no such thing exists worth the $ then I suppose I’ll just enjoy as is until I’m ready to spend another $2k.


The EML 2A3 are excellent, their 300B are fine -- I find a limited gap therein between.

Take your breather, then come, come to the 45 side.


----------



## protoss (May 29, 2022)

thinker said:


> With Sennheiser HD-800 i don't know anything better than OTL 300B



What a unique looking amp. At first glance, I swear I thought that umbrella lamp was part of it


----------



## protoss

I wonder if dynamic drivers are just better with tubes over planar and Estats?

If we just take Senny. The HD600,650 and HD800 absolutely shines with tube amplifiers. 
Planars are most of the time a hit or miss, same with Estats I noticed.


----------



## normie610

Beautiful sound with a classic look:


----------



## Gazza

@normie610 Beautiful! As someone with the same Manley pre I am planning to buy the new WE 300Bs very soon as my Sophia Princesses are 10+ years old now.

I'm contemplating upgrading all the valves on the Manley in one fell swoop as they're all pretty old. This is my thinking:

*300B* - WE as mentioned
*6SL7* - 5691 RCA Red Base (https://tubedepot.com/products/5691r-red-base)
*5AR4* - unsure - maybe https://www.wathenspeakers.com/store/p19/5AR4-WC.html as they were mentioned in this thread
*0D3 *- maybe JAN 0D3W https://iconaudio.com/jan-0d3

I'm looking for good body, with some warmth in the midrange and a deep organic bass. Wanting to compliment the thinner nature of my 800S.

Would love some feedback.


----------



## leftside

protoss said:


> I wonder if dynamic drivers are just better with tubes over planar and Estats?
> 
> If we just take Senny. The HD600,650 and HD800 absolutely shines with tube amplifiers.
> Planars are most of the time a hit or miss, same with Estats I noticed.


Depends on the tube amp.


----------



## paradoxper

normie610 said:


> Beautiful sound with a classic look:


Timeless. Unbeatable with CFA3.


----------



## protoss

normie610 said:


> Beautiful sound with a classic look:



Yeah this amp looks great. 
It has that robotic spider look to it. 

I was so close in buying one but decided my amp must have a XLR jack. 
Just a preferences.


----------



## Nicolas Yance

protoss said:


> Yeah this amp looks great.
> It has that robotic spider look to it.
> 
> I was so close in buying one but decided my amp must have a XLR jack.
> Just a preferences.


Me too, I did not buy it because of my budget. End up with a WA5 le. I can’t complain, is a beautiful sounding amp.


----------



## protoss (May 31, 2022)

Robson Acoustics - 300B Amplifier $7000

2 6SN7
2 300B output tubes
1 Rectifier 5U4G

Dedicated amplifier for the Susvara, as the owner stated.


----------



## ZzZzZzZ

Lyrita audio 
1. 2A3 integrated amplifier 
2. GM 70 integrated amplifier


----------



## protoss

A discontinued 300B brand and tube. 
CETRON 300B


----------



## protoss

A cool looking 300B pre-amp and speaker amp.
Eternity-Jo Tube Amp ET2


----------



## protoss (Jun 1, 2022)

Alesa Vaic Vacuum Technology
AVVT TUBES
A company that was ahead of its time.
Now discontinued (2001)

It looks like that AVVT was the first ones with a proper build of MESH tubes. Emission lab took over once AVVT went under.

*AVVT 300B MESH TUBES - 1990 - 2001*


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Your regular old 300B's are just puny compared to these bad boys!

Emission Labs 300B-XLS
Emission Labs 520B-V3

This weekend is gonna be fun!

(also, NOS Melz 1578's!)


----------



## protoss

ColSaulTigh said:


> Your regular old 300B's are just puny compared to these bad boys!
> 
> Emission Labs 300B-XLS
> Emission Labs 520B-V3
> ...



🤣  🤣 

Love the giant tubes! 
So, what's the point of a 520B tube? Are they just more efficient or?


----------



## ThanatosVI

ColSaulTigh said:


> Your regular old 300B's are just puny compared to these bad boys!
> 
> Emission Labs 300B-XLS
> Emission Labs 520B-V3
> ...


What the screw is a 520B ?!


----------



## ColSaulTigh

ThanatosVI said:


> What the screw is a 520B ?!


"EML520B Emission Labs Data Sheet" http://www.emissionlabs.com/datasheets/EML520B-Datasheet.html


----------



## paradoxper

I am thinking about selling my WE300B. Hasty or tasty?


----------



## ColSaulTigh

paradoxper said:


> I am thinking about selling my WE300B. Hasty or tasty?


I'll give you $50 cash money.


----------



## paradoxper

ColSaulTigh said:


> I'll give you $50 cash money.


I'd take that in trade with EML anniversaries.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

paradoxper said:


> I'd take that in trade with EML anniversaries.


EML anniversaries?  You mean the KR-Audio 300B Riccardo Kron Anniversary Editions?  They don't even get here until Friday!

No deal.


----------



## paradoxper

ColSaulTigh said:


> EML anniversaries?  You mean the KR-Audio 300B Riccardo Kron Anniversary Editions?  They don't even get here until Friday!
> 
> No deal.


No, I am referring to the EML 45 Globes made for Lampizator. Now I'll scorch the net for 'em. Only manufactured 50 pairs though. Sigh.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

paradoxper said:


> No, I am referring to the EML 45 Globes made for Lampizator. Now I'll scorch the net for 'em. Only manufactured 50 pairs though. Sigh.


Oooooh....fun!  Don't bother trying to get a hold of Lampizat0r directly - he's terrible with communication.


----------



## ThanatosVI

ColSaulTigh said:


> "EML520B Emission Labs Data Sheet" http://www.emissionlabs.com/datasheets/EML520B-Datasheet.html


Interesting.


paradoxper said:


> I am thinking about selling my WE300B. Hasty or tasty?


Why do you intend to sell them?
If you intend to replace them with 520B, keep in mind that they are no direct replacement electrically


----------



## ThanatosVI

ColSaulTigh said:


> Oooooh....fun!  Don't bother trying to get a hold of Lampizat0r directly - he's terrible with communication.


My comtact is easily a year in the past, but I received prompt replies


----------



## paradoxper

ThanatosVI said:


> Interesting.
> 
> Why do you intend to sell them?
> If you intend to replace them with 520B, keep in mind that they are no direct replacement electrically


I favor the 45 heavily and prefer someone gets great joy using it rather than sitting in a box.


----------



## protoss

I'm curious which headphone amplifiers takes 45 tubes? Any recommendations?


----------



## paradoxper

protoss said:


> I'm curious which headphone amplifiers takes 45 tubes? Any recommendations?


Eddie Current made one of fame like ECBA. Very, very generally 2A3 and 45 are family as a rough start.


----------



## protoss

THE MINUTE 45 AMPLIFIER BY SAC THAILAND

This amp can be customized to play 300B and 45 tubes. With a toggle simple switch on and off to go back and forth with the 300B and 45. 

They also make a dedicated 45 tube design only with the same design in picture.


----------



## protoss

paradoxper said:


> Eddie Current made one of fame like ECBA.


Craig surely has obtained legendary status.
Very happy knowing that I will get his very last build soon. 😃


----------



## ColSaulTigh

ThanatosVI said:


> My comtact is easily a year in the past, but I received prompt replies


His son has been sick lately, and he's attending a lot of trade shows by himself, apparently.  I've been trying (unsuccessfully) to buy a pair of KR-300B Riccardo Kron Anniversary Editions from him (technically his son via Best300B.com).  Lots of messages to him without replies.  I've actually paid twice.  He refunded the first order, then asked me to PayPal him directly via his Lampizat0r account.  That was last week.  Still not even an acknowledgement that he received my payment.  I was able to find a used set off one of the online classifieds sites, but if I could find another source for them, I'd cancel my order with him and buy them from someone else.


----------



## protoss

Now this is what we call a Gucci up amp 
*Toolshed Amps Darling Head Amp 2A3* <--- Too bad it is not 300B
$4000


----------



## protoss (Jun 2, 2022)

It is great to see *bottlehead* making a 300B!

*BeePre2 300B Preamplifier Kit*
*$1,429.00*
ADDED*


----------



## protoss (Jun 2, 2022)

*Audio Space Reference 2 Linestage Preamplifier*
Fully balance 300B pre-amp
ADDED*


----------



## protoss

Feliks Audio Arioso amplifier 300B amp


----------



## protoss (Jun 3, 2022)

Youtube schiit* compression,* music test for  300B.
ADDED* <--- 1st page


----------



## paradoxper

If you guys aren't following the Cryotone thread on the Decware forum do so. It's heating up or is chilled to the bone? I'll pass on the 300B cryo as the purported characteristics aren't the directive I'm tuning for.


----------



## paradoxper

Terrified and excited. Thanks for looking out, Fred.

Good news same guy I bought my 45 Globes from and he assured QC is reliable today.

Right.


----------



## BournePerfect

I hope those old Elrog reliability horror stories are a thing of the past. SQ wise I've heard nothing but good, in regard to their 300Bs anyway.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

paradoxper said:


> Terrified and excited. Thanks for looking out, Fred.
> 
> Good news same guy I bought my 45 Globes from and he assured QC is reliable today.
> 
> Right.


I bought my Riccardo Kron Anniversary Editions from him.  Good guy.


----------



## ThanatosVI

paradoxper said:


> Terrified and excited. Thanks for looking out, Fred.
> 
> Good news same guy I bought my 45 Globes from and he assured QC is reliable today.
> 
> Right.


Oooh Elrogs,  heard great things about their sound


----------



## protoss (Jun 9, 2022)

Elrog current new model is called,

ELROG ER300B-Mo Triode Power Tube w/Molybdenum Plate Version $2400


----------



## justanut

protoss said:


> Elrog current new model is called,
> 
> ELROG ER300B-Mo Triode Power Tube w/Molybdenum Plate Version $2400


You guys are scaring me with tubes that cost as much as my amp... but man are they beautiful~


----------



## lumdicks

Got a pair of vintage 60s WE300B and it sounds so smooth with sweet and lovely mid. It is also dead silent with my most sensitive Stellia. Much better than my reproduced 2021 version.


----------



## protoss

justanut said:


> You guys are scaring me with tubes that cost as much as my amp... but man are they beautiful~


Page 1 is the most important page here.
Post #3

This list is for people on a tight budget and refuse to pay over $1000 for tubes.
Price for a pair of 300B tubes

Sophia Electric Princess 300B (Pair) $475
Sophia Electric blue glass Classic 300B tube (Pair) $699
Sophia Electric Globe Classic 300B tube (Pair) $699
Emission Labs 300B (Pair) $690
Emission Labs 300B XLS (Pair) $820
Emission Labs 300B Mesh (Pair) $845
Linlai™ Global E-300B vacuum tubes (pair) $899
Linlai™ Global WE Replica 300B Vacuum Tubes (pair) $699
KR 300B BALLOON $755
KR 300B $707
KR 300B XLS $760
300B-WC (Pair) $966
WE300B Psvane Tube (Pair) $899
GENALEX - GOLD LION PX-300B (Pair) $540
ELECTRO-HARMONIX 300B GOLD GRID (Pair) $430
JJ 300B (Pair) $291
SHUGUANG 300B-98 (Pair) $260


----------



## justanut

protoss said:


> Page 1 is the most important page here.
> Post #3
> 
> This list is for people on a tight budget and refuse to pay over $1000 for tubes.
> ...


Be great if this develops into a sort of ranking eventually... someone here prob has them all 😅


----------



## protoss

EAT (European Audio Team) 

Released their first products around 2002. Located in Czech Republic. 

Sound reported: the most neutral 300B, with deep extension. Flat neutrality, Super fast and impactful but also very smooth and laid back.

E.A.T 300B Tube $1400


----------



## protoss

justanut said:


> Be great if this develops into a sort of ranking eventually... someone here prob has them all 😅


No ranking. People here will yell at you. 
Like literally, LOL!!!

You cant go wrong Shopia or Emission Labs stuff and others...


----------



## ThanatosVI

protoss said:


> EAT (European Audio Team)
> 
> Released their first products around 2002. Located in Czech Republic.
> 
> ...


It's sad that they tripled their prices since covid.

I was eyeing at their KT88 tubes a while ago.
When I wanted to order they were out of stock everywhere, and then increased the prices by over 100%

That was when I turned my sights to other manufacturers again.


----------



## paradoxper

ColSaulTigh said:


> I bought my Riccardo Kron Anniversary Editions from him.  Good guy.


What in the small world. That means he was holding out on me. Ha.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

justanut said:


> Be great if this develops into a sort of ranking eventually... someone here prob has them all 😅


Ranking is subjective.  One man's trash is another man's treasure...


----------



## ColSaulTigh

paradoxper said:


> What in the small world. That means he was holding out on me. Ha.


He had two pair listed, actually!   Someone else beat me to the pair with the box.  But I don't care (much) about the box, so....


----------



## paradoxper

ColSaulTigh said:


> He had two pair listed, actually!   Someone else beat me to the pair with the box.  But I don't care (much) about the box, so....


He always has the goods for us.


----------



## HiFiHawaii808

protoss said:


> It is great to see *bottlehead* making a 300B!
> 
> *BeePre2 300B Preamplifier Kit*
> *$1,429.00*
> ADDED*


How does it sound?   I was actually looking at this product this week.


----------



## paradoxper

protoss said:


> EAT (European Audio Team)
> 
> Released their first products around 2002. Located in Czech Republic.
> 
> ...


Damn. Sigh. My wallet can't take the beating. These are never talked about.


----------



## paradoxper

ColSaulTigh said:


> Ranking is subjective.  One man's trash is another man's treasure...


I'm reminded, as I switch back to WE, there is no best, no trash. I can't sell the WE300B.


----------



## protoss

*TJ Fullmusic*

Factory in Tianjin, China since 2002.
They have about dozens of 300B tubes. 
Well known and knowledgeable in the 300B world. 

TJ MESH PLATE 300B PAIR $365.00




TJ FULLMUSIC 300B – MESH PLATE (GLOBE SHAPE)
$370.00




TJ FULLMUSIC 300B – MESH PLATE (DOME SHAPE, MATCHED PAIR)
$360.00




TJ FULLMUSIC 300B – SE SPECIAL EDITION (MATCHED PAIR)
$740.00




TJ FULLMUSIC 300B – B PLUS VERSION (MATCHED PAIR)
$849.00




TJ FULLMUSIC 300B – C PLUS VERSION (MATCHED PAIR)
$849.00




TJ FULLMUSIC 300B – CNE (MATCHED PAIR)
$990.00


----------



## ThanatosVI

protoss said:


> *TJ Fullmusic*
> 
> Factory in Tianjin, China since 2002.
> They have about dozens of 300B tubes.
> ...


TJ Fullmusic is no longer in business. All of their tubes are basically NOS now.

The gear was sold to Linlai and PSVane.


----------



## protoss

ThanatosVI said:


> TJ Fullmusic is no longer in business. All of their tubes are basically NOS now.
> 
> The gear was sold to Linlai and PSVane.


Wow did not know that. I was wondering why I haven't seen other sites hosting their stuff. 

I have one site selling all new TJ 300B.

Reading about TJ music, lots love them and some held them high in China and other circles. Sadly another discontinued 300B. Might pick up some of their stuff now. 🤔


----------



## ThanatosVI

protoss said:


> Wow did not know that. I was wondering why I haven't seen other sites hosting their stuff.
> 
> I have one site selling all new TJ 300B.
> 
> Reading about TJ music, lots love them and some held them high in China and other circles. Sadly another discontinued 300B. Might pick up some of their stuff now. 🤔


Yeah they were well regarded, but the founder died in 2019 and with him the company.

Feliks Envy has TJ Fullmusic in their "premium upgrade" - at least as long as Stocks last


----------



## protoss

Western Electric 300B amp is a beast of a amp!


----------



## protoss (Jun 10, 2022)

Found a hidden gem

WESTERN ELECTRIC Vacuum Tubes Valves "Bottle of Magic" A brief history.


----------



## protoss

*Create Audio GOLDEN JAZZ SERIES 300B*
Company is called Synergy Hi-Fi, founded in 1995 in Hong-Kong. 
They claim that their tubes are not rebrands but their own design and philosophy.


----------



## BournePerfect

Chinese philosophy is 'rebranding'. 👀


----------



## protoss

*SHUGUANG TUBES*
Shuguang has been around since 1958. Located in China.
They are one of the worlds largest tube manufactures that is supplying, building and creating tubes and amps for many companies and themselves. Shuguang is the main company that builds other Chinese tubes.

A brief history?
They were called, #770. Supply equipment to the military. Rebrand their name to Shuguang in the 1980s and open their markets to the world. 

They have 3 series of tubes of their own that includes 300Bs. 

-Standard Shuguang Tubes 
3 300B standard tubes, including mesh and a copy of WE design.

-Shuguang Natural Sound Series
1 Natural sound 300B tube

-Shuguang Treasure Series
1 300B Treasure tube. <-- The most famous of their 300B tubes.


----------



## protoss

"A notable fact: Shuguang has produced *eighty percent of 300B tubes ever made*."

Nature Sound series is the newly designed  products  made by Shuguang Corporation in 2012.


----------



## protoss

Shuguang is the Samsung of Vacuum tubes. 
They build amplifiers. 
They build tubes. 
They create tubes. 
*They take third-party orders to build their tubes.*

They are the ones that are flooding the market with these so-called "Chinese" tubes.

They are the ones that all the jokes come from, it seems.

Joke ---> "Those are just Chinese tubes."

Wait a minute, this joke/statement sucks! It is the beast, aka Shuguang...


----------



## protoss

*Jadis 300B tubes (Rare)*
by Fullmusic


----------



## protoss (Jun 11, 2022)

*KR Audio VV 302B Tubes (Rare)*
Aqua-blue glass in a "medicine bottle" shape tubes from the early '00s.
*

*


----------



## protoss

*Italian tubes?*

Fivre created many tubes. 45, 2A3 and even 300B. 
Founded in 1932.

45 tube fivre Italy power tubes pair black plate brown base




2A3 Fivre




Cant find a pic of Fivre 300B.

Marconi 2A3


----------



## paradoxper

Oh so wonderful, unfortunately.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

paradoxper said:


> Oh so wonderful, unfortunately.


Are those the Elrogs?


----------



## paradoxper

ColSaulTigh said:


> Are those the Elrogs?


Yes. And yes, you absolutely need a pair. They trounce.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

paradoxper said:


> Yes. And yes, you absolutely need a pair. They trounce.


Ugh.

Fine.

[Starts searching for Elrogs]...


----------



## paradoxper

ColSaulTigh said:


> Ugh.
> 
> Fine.
> 
> [Starts searching for Elrogs]...


You can buy my globes or WE, I don't need 'em now.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

paradoxper said:


> You can buy my globes or WE, I don't need 'em now.


I've got WE's already.  Which globes?

I figure if I wait long enough you'll get bored of them and I'll just buy 'em from you....


----------



## paradoxper

ColSaulTigh said:


> I've got WE's already.  Which globes?
> 
> I figure if I wait long enough you'll get bored of them and I'll just buy 'em from you....


The EML 45 for Lampizator. 

That is a wait for a time.


----------



## paradoxper

I was asked to compare WE and Elrog:
Right off, the Elrog provides supreme balance, top to bottom, far better extension and delineation, the WE is slow, more muted with more bloat. 
Elrog presents a higher resolving power with decisive detail pop. It can be startling just how much clarity is presented (without a forward push). There is more dimension, more soul, more there ( stage width / depth being equal). There's no way around saying the WE is not at the same proficiency.

Compared to the 45 Globe the story is much the same to a slightly less degree but still appreciable.
The main difference therein the 45 provides an inner glow for midrange presence -- hard to describe a liquid state with overt technicolor, 

This Elrog tube is of hybrid aspiration, the best sensibilities of solid state with all the deeper connection of tube insight. A bit transformative.


----------



## lumdicks

What a beauty and they are more than half a century old! Sounds supremely with articulated extension and smoothness.


----------



## protoss

Is it okay to touch the tubes with our bare hands or is it still debatable?


----------



## ColSaulTigh

protoss said:


> Is it okay to touch the tubes with our bare hands or is it still debatable?


Yes, you can - they don't get hot enough for the oil from your hands to cause serious damage.  Although I personally wipe them off after inserting/handling them.  OCD and all...


----------



## leftside

lumdicks said:


> What a beauty and they are more than half a century old! Sounds supremely with articulated extension and smoothness.





protoss said:


> Is it okay to touch the tubes with our bare hands or is it still debatable?


All I know is I wouldn’t use or even touch the above WE 300B for fear of breaking them. Once tubes reach a certain price point and rarity, I start looking at them as historical artifacts/antiques.


----------



## protoss

ColSaulTigh said:


> Yes, you can - they don't get hot enough for the oil from your hands to cause serious damage.  Although I personally wipe them off after inserting/handling them.  OCD and all...


Yeah, I was thinking more of our human hand oil than anything also, grease and dirt. I read that our hand oil on the pins can cause corrosion over time. 
Maybe the best thing to do is become OCD and just wipe after you remove.


----------



## paradoxper

leftside said:


> All I know is I wouldn’t use or even touch the above WE 300B for fear of breaking them. Once tubes reach a certain price point and rarity, I start looking at them as historical artifacts/antiques.


You should run them into the ground, squeezing out every listening hour until their end. Then put them out for display.


----------



## protoss

leftside said:


> I start looking at them as historical artifacts/antiques


95% of my headphones are historical artifacts and antiques. I like to use each and everyone of them once every other day. I take out about 5 headphones and place them on my table to shuffle through and replace them with others weeks after. One headphone I always have on the table is my L3000. I had 4, sold 1 and now have 3. Sad days. 

We can't just museum these in our house?

Here is today week of listening.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

protoss said:


> Yeah, I was thinking more of our human hand oil than anything also, grease and dirt. I read that our hand oil on the pins can cause corrosion over time.
> Maybe the best thing to do is become OCD and just wipe after you remove.


I think I said that...


----------



## protoss

Best 5min spent.
How tubes are made.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

protoss said:


> Best 5min spent.
> How tubes are made.



This IS a worthwhile watch - thank you!


----------



## justanut

How do these stack up?


----------



## ColSaulTigh

justanut said:


> How do these stack up?


Somebody rang?




They're beefy.  Not particularly bright or resolving, but warm and they have gravitas.  They are good for anything blues/rock/jazz, but not great for Classical or EDM.  Vocals are ok, nothing fantastic.  For lack of a better term, they lack sizzle.


----------



## justanut

ColSaulTigh said:


> Somebody rang?
> 
> 
> They're beefy.  Not particularly bright or resolving, but warm and they have gravitas.  They are good for anything blues/rock/jazz, but not great for Classical or EDM.  Vocals are ok, nothing fantastic.  For lack of a better term, they lack sizzle.


Out of curiosity which 300b is your fav?


----------



## szore

Man...want a 300b amp so bad.... I come to this thread and I drool....


----------



## ColSaulTigh (Jun 15, 2022)

justanut said:


> Out of curiosity which 300b is your fav?


Of the ones I've run so far, I'd have to say the Takatsuki 300B with matching Takatsuki 274B rectifiers for clarity with bass (a simply pure sound signature), and my [EML 520B with EML 274B Mesh rectifiers] and [Western Electric 300B/USAF "Mighty" 596 rectifiers] tie for second place (giving that very thick, warm, "tube" sound).  The KR 300B RK/KR 5U4G RK combo is probably 3rd place.  FWIW, I LOVE the KR 5U4G RK rectifier in combination with other tubes, as well as in my Woo Audio WA6-SE Gen 2's.

Bear in mind, YMMV, as everyone's setup with source/DAC/cables/HPs/etc. will vary the sound fairly substantially.  Also, the driver tubes probably play a bit of a factor in this.  I am currently running Tung Sol 6F8G/VT99's, which are a very wet and slick sounding driver.  If you want clean and precise, the Melz 1578 or RCA 6SN7 Smoked Glass are probably better choices.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

szore said:


> Man...want a 300b amp so bad.... I come to this thread and I drool....


@Bonddam has his Woo Audio WA5-LE Gen 2 up for sale in the classifieds for a hell of a price.  If I didn't already own one, I'd buy it in a heartbeat.


----------



## paradoxper

ColSaulTigh said:


> Somebody rang?
> 
> 
> They're beefy.  Not particularly bright or resolving, but warm and they have gravitas.  They are good for anything blues/rock/jazz, but not great for Classical or EDM.  Vocals are ok, nothing fantastic.  For lack of a better term, they lack sizzle.


Have you heard any 300B with sizzle? I think the Elrog and Tak have the most detail and more neutral response but both are still smooth.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

paradoxper said:


> Have you heard any 300B with sizzle? I think the Elrog and Tak have the most detail and more neutral response but both are still smooth.


I think the Sophia Princess 300B "Mesh" have sizzle, BUT they're extremely microphonic and slightly boomy (IMO).

Maybe "sizzle" is the wrong word..."sparkle?", "pizzaz?", "pop?"

I dunno, I don't know all the fancy Audiophile terms...


----------



## paradoxper

ColSaulTigh said:


> I think the Sophia Princess 300B "Mesh" have sizzle, BUT they're extremely microphonic and slightly boomy (IMO).
> 
> Maybe "sizzle" is the wrong word..."sparkle?", "pizzaz?", "pop?"
> 
> I dunno, I don't know all the fancy Audiophile terms...


Yup. They don't count. LOL

Boomy can't coincide.


----------



## leftside

ColSaulTigh said:


> Of the ones I've run so far, I'd have to say the Takatsuki 300B


Same. I find the Taks to be so good that I haven't (thankfully) felt the desire to tube roll 300B's. Wish I could say the same for the other tubes I have - which now are up to 1500 in total.


----------



## UntilThen

paradoxper said:


> You should run them into the ground, squeezing out every listening hour until their end. Then put them out for display.



Yup. Why else would you pay so much money for it if you don't use it.


----------



## protoss

*TJ Full Music 300B/Q*
-upgraded version over the CNE 
-Sound, warm/analogy presentation
-claimed that they use a special material to extend life span (30000+hrs)


----------



## protoss

szore said:


> Man...want a 300b amp so bad.... I come to this thread and I drool....


If you worry about the price? There's some great ones for decent price. 

Elekit TU-8900 300B/2A3 Tube Amplifier Kit $1500
-It runs 300B and 2A3.
https://tubedepot.com/products/elekit-tu-8900-300b-2a3-tube-amplifier-kit

Virtus 300B $1300
https://www.wbamp.com/product/virtus-300b-otl-single-ended-headphone-amplifier/

For the tubes, start small? Less than $500
Sophia Electric Princess 300B (Pair) $475
ELECTRO-HARMONIX 300B GOLD GRID (Pair) $430
TJ Fullmusic MESH PLATE 300B PAIR $365.00
GENALEX - GOLD LION PX-300B (Pair) $540


----------



## szore

protoss said:


> If you worry about the price? There's some great ones for decent price.
> 
> Elekit TU-8900 300B/2A3 Tube Amplifier Kit $1500
> -It runs 300B and 2A3.
> ...


Ah, I am saving this list...thank you...no, my problem is space...I just don't have a place to put it...


----------



## protoss

In the video is the older version of the Elekit. The new version and much better built and features is the Elekit TU8900 (2022)


Elekit TU-8600 (2017)


----------



## protoss (Jun 16, 2022)

Part 1 and 2 to help build the kit. 
Elekit 8900


----------



## soulrider4ever

Flipped my voltage from 2.5 to 5v and replaced my stock 2A3 with Sophia 300B tubes. Burning in now!


----------



## protoss

soulrider4ever said:


> Flipped my voltage from 2.5 to 5v and replaced my stock 2A3 with Sophia 300B tubes. Burning in now!


Nice! I found a white version of your beautiful amp. I really like the look of this amp in black and white 

If you ever gonna sell it.... pm me


----------



## protoss (Jun 17, 2022)

"*White Bird*" 🐦







They make good looking amps.


----------



## soulrider4ever

Those VU meters though! Stunning!


----------



## protoss (Jun 17, 2022)

Yeah, White Bird Amplification also has a very good cheap 300B Amplifier.
$1500 for a 300B amp. Not a kit, fully build.
https://www.wbamp.com/product/virtus-300b-otl-single-ended-headphone-amplifier/





**Added "White Bird Amplification" as the best value 300B Amplifier.
-upgraded pot, 48 step resistor
-Auto bias
-class A
-VU meter
-polish company
-clean design
-cheap


----------



## DJJEZ

Some pics of my ampsandsound red october I got recently. My first ever 300B tube amp


----------



## ThanatosVI

DJJEZ said:


> Some pics of my ampsandsound red october I got recently. My first ever 300B tube amp


More of a black October - I like it


----------



## DJJEZ

ThanatosVI said:


> More of a black October - I like it


Lmao I've given it that name as well


----------



## protoss

@DJJEZ 

Absolutely stunning.
Congrats 👏


----------



## ThanatosVI

DJJEZ said:


> Lmao I've given it that name as well


I just now read in your signature that you also own a Woo Wa33, now I have to ask for a comparison.


----------



## paradoxper

@ColSaulTigh did you get your Elrogs? Come on! I had to order another pair. I'm thinking how I need to find a way to bring in the Elrog 101D badly.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

paradoxper said:


> @ColSaulTigh did you get your Elrogs? Come on! I had to order another pair. I'm thinking how I need to find a way to bring in the Elrog 101D badly.


They arrive Wednesday.

Did you get Elrog rectifiers as well?


----------



## paradoxper

ColSaulTigh said:


> They arrive Wednesday.
> 
> Did you get Elrog rectifiers as well?


Ugh.

I only use GZ for slow start.


----------



## DJJEZ

ThanatosVI said:


> I just now read in your signature that you also own a Woo Wa33, now I have to ask for a comparison.


I'm working on it


----------



## paradoxper

feels like
beginning and end


----------



## protoss (Jun 25, 2022)

Western Electric 91E 300B amp $15,999 early bird speical was $1000 off.
Comes with 2 300B western electric tubes. $1500

Can safely say it is the HE1 of tube amplifiers and probably the best of the best.





*ADDED second video to first page


----------



## ColSaulTigh

protoss said:


> Western Electric 91E 300B amp $15,999 early bird speical was $1000 off.
> Comes with 2 300B western electric tubes. $1500
> 
> Can safely say it is the HE1 of tube amplifiers and probably the best of the best.
> ...



Until you have one in your hands and can actually audition it, making claims like "Can safely say it is the HE1 of tube amplifiers and probably the best of the best." Is a bit irresponsible.


----------



## protoss

@ColSaulTigh 
I will take that gamble 🎰 
😜 

I think most of our gear was blind buying? 🤔


----------



## ColSaulTigh

protoss said:


> @ColSaulTigh
> I will take that gamble 🎰
> 😜
> 
> I think most of our gear was blind buying? 🤔


I don't think you'll find that the case at all.

I'm sure most have done quite a bit of research before making a purchase, or made a purchase based on recommendations/referrals/reviews of other trusted resources.

Even those who never heard what they were buying (probably) didn't go in without some form of research or track record before diving off the deep end.

I'm not saying the WE is a bad amplifier.  I'm saying it's an UNPROVEN amplifier that (to my knowledge) has yet to be independently reviewed.  It could sound like absolute dog food (only I didn't say "food").  Without any other inclination of it's capabilities, it's just a pretty paperweight.


----------



## protoss

@ColSaulTigh

Hard to argue against soild points but for fun I'll try my best 😀

A 100 plus year-old company that created many technological inventions, including the brilliant 300B tubes, should not be easily dismissed and criticized for sub-par technological doubt. They have proven in other venues that they are capable of competent builds and designs. They had released other amps and players that were soild and worthwhile. I have not heard of a schiit WE product yet, except faulty tubes. This isn't their first rodeo.

I do not think it is irresponsible to say that WE is the best of the best in creating something for thier beloved 300B tube. A company that influenced and created copycats worldwide with their design and philosophy should automatically be placed in God Tier status, period.

I will be shocked, and most will also be if a company like Western Electric made one of the worst pieces of schiit amplifier for their precious tubes as you comically pointing out.

Just to add some salt 🧂
I have a friend who had a Woo Audio product that had smoking problems. The internals was smoking out like a lit cigarette next to the amp. He showed me the video from 2018. It was the WA5LE 1st gen from 2018. I remember saying, "trash that schiit." 😀


----------



## ColSaulTigh (Jun 25, 2022)

On a different note, looks like I need to get another case if I intend to continue buying tubes...


----------



## protoss

lol you Rambo. Look at all those grenades!

I got to* stop *buying headphones and start stacking up on these 300B tubes...


----------



## szore

ColSaulTigh said:


> On a different note, looks like I need to get another case of I intend to continue buying tubes...


You are a connoisseur!


----------



## ThanatosVI

ColSaulTigh said:


> On a different note, looks like I need to get another case if I intend to continue buying tubes...


This looks very satisfying


----------



## ColSaulTigh (Jun 26, 2022)

ThanatosVI said:


> This looks very satisfying


It's not - I have additional tubes that won't fit.  My OCD won't let me be until I have an even number to fit cases perfectly.


----------



## protoss

Western Electric 97A Monoblock Amplifiers $125,000
It takes *16 *300B Tubes! =$24,000


----------



## szore

protoss said:


> Western Electric 97A Monoblock Amplifiers $125,000
> It takes *16 *300B Tubes! =$24,000


Epic!


----------



## paradoxper

protoss said:


> Western Electric 97A Monoblock Amplifiers $125,000
> It takes *16 *300B Tubes! =$24,000


Now these I'd love to compare to my Pass monoblocks.


----------



## DJJEZ

ColSaulTigh said:


> On a different note, looks like I need to get another case if I intend to continue buying tubes...


That case looks amazing. Can you point me in the right direction for buying something similar but smaller?


----------



## ColSaulTigh

DJJEZ said:


> That case looks amazing. Can you point me in the right direction for buying something similar but smaller?


Thanks!

This case is from Harbor Freight - it's an *Apache 9800 Rifle Case (Black)*.  I also have a smaller pistol case that I use for my 6XXX & 13XXX tubes (see below).  It's also from Harbor Freight - *Apache 4800 Pistol Case (Black)*.  Both cases come in a variety of colors.  The foam is the pick-apart type, so you can customize the case to whatever you want to fit inside.  Harbor Freight (via their 800 number) also has replacement foam for sale.  I've redone the large case twice now, and will probably have to get another case as this one is full (and the collection is growing).  The 4800 is double-layered, and if you stand your 6XXX tubes upright, you can fit quite a few tubes in there.  There are other similar cases available on Amazon, but Harbor Freight is hard to beat if you happen to hit them on sale or with a coupon (pro tip: big holidays like this weekend usually mean big sales and coupons!)


----------



## szore

ColSaulTigh said:


> Thanks!
> 
> This case is from Harbor Freight - it's an *Apache 9800 Rifle Case (Black)*.  I also have a smaller pistol case that I use for my 6XXX & 13XXX tubes (see below).  It's also from Harbor Freight - *Apache 4800 Pistol Case (Black)*.  Both cases come in a variety of colors.  The foam is the pick-apart type, so you can customize the case to whatever you want to fit inside.  Harbor Freight (via their 800 number) also has replacement foam for sale.  I've redone the large case twice now, and will probably have to get another case as this one is full (and the collection is growing).  The 4800 is double-layered, and if you stand your 6XXX tubes upright, you can fit quite a few tubes in there.  There are other similar cases available on Amazon, but Harbor Freight is hard to beat if you happen to hit them on sale or with a coupon (pro tip: big holidays like this weekend usually mean big sales and coupons!)


So that foam comes pre cut like that into little cubes? Then you customize it? That's neat.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

szore said:


> So that foam comes pre cut like that into little cubes? Then you customize it? That's neat.


Correct.  It's laser cut.  You just pick out the pieces you want to remove.


----------



## waterking

Have one in hand. Not setup yet. Beautiful system.


----------



## ZzZzZzZ

Has anyone here tried Coincident Dynamo MKIII 300B with Hifiman Susvara ?


----------



## ARCXENOS

Figured this place might be the right place to ask, I am wondering if anyone has tried the new production Western Electric 300b? 

I currently only have the stock genalex gold lions that came with my amp, I do wonder how big the difference will be when I roll power tubes


----------



## ThanatosVI

ARCXENOS said:


> Figured this place might be the right place to ask, I am wondering if anyone has tried the new production Western Electric 300b?
> 
> I currently only have the stock genalex gold lions that came with my amp, I do wonder how big the difference will be when I roll power tubes


Yes many tried them, and basically everyone loved them


----------



## protoss

This video might turn you on. Don't blame me.


----------



## Contrails

Apex Pinnacle - 300B


----------



## protoss

Contrails said:


> Apex Pinnacle - 300B


Did not come across 300B versions? I only found two non-300B amps? Is it a custom version or a older version from 2010? If it is discontinued I might not add it. 

Apex High Fi Audio Pinnacle 2 $12,000 
6SN7
PX4
It is a sexy beast, I might say 





Apex High Fi Audio Teton $5,000
6SN7
5U4GB


----------



## paradoxper (Jul 9, 2022)

Pete Millett is retired.


----------



## protoss

Ah schiit, now I am tempted to buy the Apex. 
Must resist.


----------



## soulrider4ever (Jul 9, 2022)

Picked up some Elrog’s as the Sophia’s just hummed too much for me. The Elrog’s are also pretty microphonic but I was able to block the RFI with some tea canisters from Amazon.

Not the best photo but they glow really great - of course can’t see them once I covered them up. 

They sound absolutely glorious so far!


----------



## ColSaulTigh

soulrider4ever said:


> Picked up some Elrog’s as the Sophia’s just hummed too much for me. The Elrog’s are also pretty microphonic but I was able to block the RFI with some tea canisters from Amazon.
> 
> Not the best photo but they glow really great - of course can’t see them once I covered them up.
> 
> They sound absolutely glorious so far!


I'm running the ER300B-Mo's now.  I'm not having issues with microphonics.  @paradoxper any issues from yours?


----------



## Nicolas Yance

In my experience, the driver tubes tend to be the microphonics, not the power tubes.


----------



## paradoxper

ColSaulTigh said:


> I'm running the ER300B-Mo's now.  I'm not having issues with microphonics.  @paradoxper any issues from yours?


No noise on either ER300B or ER300B-Mo using the older brass base. I have some of the new black base coming as well and will report.
None of my 300B have been noisy. I wouldn't tolerate it.

I am uncertain what headphones he's using, but I'm using the 1266 TC and Spirit Torino Valkyria.

Now all are microphonic, they ting and ping like cow bells upon warmup as is their natural course.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

paradoxper said:


> No noise on either ER300B or ER300B-Mo using the older brass base. I have some of the new black base coming as well and will report.
> None of my 300B have been noisy. I wouldn't tolerate it.
> 
> I am uncertain what headphones he's using, but I'm using the 1266 TC and Spirit Torino Valkyria.
> ...


I didn't know you got a pair of Mo's!  How do you like 'em?


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Nicolas Yance said:


> In my experience, the driver tubes tend to be the microphonics, not the power tubes.


I can tell you that in my experience, I've had a couple of VERY microphonic 300B's.  My Sophia Princess 300B's are terrible!  They sound like wind chimes for the first 1/2 hour during warm-up, and any vibrations whatsoever transfer through them.


----------



## paradoxper

ColSaulTigh said:


> I didn't know you got a pair of Mo's!  How do you like 'em?


I don't love their general character as much, they have more muscle, more punch but they lose that sweet edge.
What I will say is they make WE sound murky and broken. The Mo also mate much better with Valkryia so I may sell my Primavera.


----------



## Nicolas Yance

What's the difference between the regulars and Mo?


----------



## ColSaulTigh (Jul 9, 2022)

Nicolas Yance said:


> What's the difference between the regulars and Mo?


https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/elrog-3300b-molybdenum-version.361955/

Meant to post THIS link: https://www.stereonet.com/uk/reviews/elrog-er300b-vacuum-tube-review


----------



## soulrider4ever

Nicolas Yance said:


> In my experience, the driver tubes tend to be the microphonics, not the power tubes.


In my case the Elrog 300B’s are being used as the driver tube . 

I’m used to it by now - funny the Sophia’s didn’t pickup the RF noise as much but just had a constant hum and would ring when a signal went through them.

The elrogs don’t hum or ring at all and once covered are dead quiet.


----------



## protoss

The question is, why do tubes have a microphonic problem?

Is it the tubes, amplifiers, external causes, or all of the above causing this?
I wonder if the tiny wiring inside the tube connects to the mesh is the main cause? The vibration causing such issues? Maybe the amplifier and its moving parts vibrating the tubes to rattle? Or the external forces such as headphones, wires, and table banging causing this?

I read somewhere that microphonic is good and part of the design of tubes as it is the secret sauce to the magic of tubes. The person explained that the microphonic is the main reason for bass and soundstage increase and depth? This is hard to figure out and understand, but it is an idea.

Maybe tube dampers are the solution?
https://herbiesaudiolab.com/collections/tube-dampers


----------



## protoss

*Herbiesaudiolab* has overwhelming reviews on their rings. So I added this on page 1***

You need the "65 version" for 300B tubes
-HAL-O III-65
-UltraSonic Rx-65


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Rings help marginally with glass vibration.  If your unit is prone to vibration, they're not going to help much.  Microphonics come from a couple of sources - RF interference, vibration, noisy transformers/electrical gear, etc.  Also, not all "65" rings will fit all 300B tubes.  Tubes come in a variety of shapes and sizes.


----------



## paradoxper

You definitely need to directly differentiate target noise, 300B will ping as direct until they reach equilibrium and will then be very quiet.


----------



## protoss (Jul 10, 2022)

ColSaulTigh said:


> Also, not all "65" rings will fit all 300B tubes.


It sure does cover 98% of the tubes, I see. There is a list for everyone to see.
Only the most obvious it doesn't cover and that is the Elrog tubes.
Furthermore, if the 65 version, for some strange reason, does not work on a Sophia tube, for example, the 55 or 100 will.


----------



## protoss (Jul 11, 2022)

*Ultrasonic Studios *

This company has 7 tube amplifiers. Trying to catch upto Woo Audio 
1 300B amp and have custom builds orders.
Their motto is to use only good parts in their amps.

300B Amp - Telemachus $5000







*Odyssey* $4000 <-- This amplifier is amazing looking. Compact and beefy


----------



## protoss

Rare - *USR 300B* Tubes
Suppose to be Japanese's made.


----------



## paradoxper

@ColSaulTigh / anyone else, have you tried the Audio Note 4300E? I'm thinking about trying these as a last trial but aside from one major publisher review, there is almost zero anecdotal information, surprise. I am curious about the moly anode but quite skeptical as they're a Psvane contact. The other inquiry was trying a pair of AVVT.


----------



## dadracer2 (Jul 14, 2022)

paradoxper said:


> @ColSaulTigh / anyone else, have you tried the Audio Note 4300E? I'm thinking about trying these as a last trial but aside from one major publisher review, there is almost zero anecdotal information, surprise. I am curious about the moly anode but quite skeptical as they're a Psvane contact. The other inquiry was trying a pair of AVVT.


In fairness they are made to a spec by Audio Note or Peter Qvortrup so they should be great as he has forgotten more about valves than most folk know.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

paradoxper said:


> @ColSaulTigh / anyone else, have you tried the Audio Note 4300E? I'm thinking about trying these as a last trial but aside from one major publisher review, there is almost zero anecdotal information, surprise. I am curious about the moly anode but quite skeptical as they're a Psvane contact. The other inquiry was trying a pair of AVVT.


I have not tried them yet, but for $800(ish) it's not a bad price.  Maybe next month I'll order a pair to check them out.


----------



## paradoxper

dadracer2 said:


> In fairness they are made to a spec by Audio Note or Peter Qvortrup so they should be great as he has forgotten more about valves than most folk know.


My doubt stems from the overwhelming disappointment of Shuaguang and Psvane -- considering the variable application of their carbon plate, gold-plated molybdenum wire and tungsten wire resulted in no subjective sonic advantage, it's easy to fall for a marketing ploy understanding the practical context. 
However, yes, the moly anode is very curious considering thoriated tungsten filament is more-of-the-magic aside from the very specialized moly plate versus standardized nickel -- similarly the KR using zirconium coated anodes yields another particular, say, flat result. One which doesn't exclude context of longevity.

I'm a little jaded but ever tempted to scratch the itch.


ColSaulTigh said:


> I have not tried them yet, but for $800(ish) it's not a bad price.  Maybe next month I'll order a pair to check them out.


Yes, I'll likely bite although gut check implores I just grab one more pair of Elrogs. Ha.


----------



## protoss (Jul 14, 2022)

"Super" Rare *Keiko 300BS-Z *$900
Brand: Keikou
Manufacturer Keiko
https://www.ebay.com/itm/154227769915


----------



## paradoxper

IIRC those are NGG Shuguang manufactured.


----------



## protoss (Jul 14, 2022)

paradoxper said:


> Shuguang


Shuguang strikes again!
In the near future it will be extremely difficult to escape from their grip.


----------



## paradoxper

protoss said:


> Shuguang strikes again!
> In the near future it will be extremely difficult to escape from their grip.


Ha. It was not Shuguang, it was Guiguang whom was bought by Psvane. Who can keep track of their circular architecture.


----------



## FLTWS

True.


----------



## dadracer2

Just came across this which is interesting and possibly worth a listen, https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2022...u-ever-wanted-to-know-the-occasional-podcast/


----------



## protoss

dadracer2 said:


> Just came across this which is interesting and possibly worth a listen, https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2022...u-ever-wanted-to-know-the-occasional-podcast/


This is very good. Overall, all this is discussed throughout this thread as a whole. Nevertheless, I will place this on page 1 as a must. 
2X the speed, and it's only 15min long  

The best part was when he stated throughout the podcast that everyone copied Western Electric, Western Electric 300b, and Western Electric amp (91A)!


----------



## protoss

*Sovtek 300B*
Made in Russia


----------



## protoss

*Sun Valley*
They make Amplifiers and have their own marked Sun Valley "Prime Tubes" 300B
4 300B Sun Valley tubes in this pic


----------



## paradoxper

4300E ordered. Also slightly bummed to now find out Elrog has dumped the 2A3 which means I won't compare them to the Takatsuki 2A3.

This should likely end my tube rolling at least for a time, if Linlai produces a molybdenum 300B which they should in the near future, I'll give 'em a whirl.


----------



## protoss (Jul 15, 2022)

*Brimar TP 300B *$200
British Tubes 🇬🇧
https://brimaruk.com/valves/triodes/brimar-300b/

This tube looks like a bargain of the century?!
This might be my number #1 recommendation 

Negative * they don't ship to America or Canada. Only way is to have a 3rd party involved. This kind of sucks.


----------



## FLTWS

Hello all.

The 300B type tube is the last territory I want to explore in my audiophile career after 50 plus years of gear using 8 and 9 pin tubes. I’ve read through this thread twice which has been very helpful.

While several of the amps noted in this thread caught my interest, my 300B HP amp of choice will most likely be the Woo WA5-LE with upgraded caps for a number of reasons. Two 35lb. units with handles will be nice. I’m thinking the two units ship in separate boxes(?).

I’m also a fan of point-to-point wiring, the 3-year warranty is reasonable, Woo is well known and well established, and I’m a 2-hour drive from their location (not that I would plan to drive there). I’m also interested to hear what tube rectification brings to the sound, some of my early amps in the 70’s had it. I also like the aesthetics of the WA5-LE.

Settling on the HP amp was the easy part taking the above factors as well as pricing and availability into consideration. Phones I have include the Senn 800 and 800S, Susvara, and 1266 Phi with CC ear pads. I might even re-purchase a Utopia for this amp. (I also have RAAL SR1a but that phone requires special feeding and I will go with the companion VM-1a as I have sold my PrimaLuna EVO 400 (along with my 2 channel setup), regrettable, as I loved it with all my phones and speakers, but can no longer lug its 75 pounds around anymore and will be downsizing (for the second time) next year).

Tube selection is not so easy a decision. Given the costs I do not plan to have 4 dozen different varieties of 300B types as with my collection of say 6SN7 types, many of them matched pairs.

I’ll probably settle on 3 different pairs of 300B’s. The Takatsuki’s, WE’s, and Elrogs would seem to provide 3 different sonic palettes’, which is what I would like for variety and matching with different phones. I have no plans to go after the NOS market, I weaned myself off that path 2 or more years back with my other tube types.

Any thoughts are appreciated. Thanks.


----------



## ColSaulTigh (Jul 15, 2022)

FLTWS said:


> Hello all.
> 
> The 300B type tube is the last territory I want to explore in my audiophile career after 50 plus years of gear using 8 and 9 pin tubes. I’ve read through this thread twice which has been very helpful.
> 
> ...


Welcome to the club!

If you're looking for a pretty significant savings on your unit as well as a few extra tubes to play with, might I suggest looking at *@Bonddam 's Woo Audio WA5-LE that he has for sale in the Classsifieds section.*  $2k off for a basically new unit, not bad!

As for rectifiers, you've got a good selection there.  I'm currently running the Elrog 300B-Mo's (New Gen) in my system, and have all of the others you've mentioned.  If you want something that sounds more warm and gooey, I'd throw some Emission Labs into the mix.

Something else to consider is rectifiers.  They are as much impactful as the 300Bs in this setup.  I've run everything from USAF "Mighty" 596's to KR-Audio 5U4G "Riccardo Kron Anniversary Edition" (current) in my system.  Elrog 5U4G's are in the queue, waiting on them to get back in stock.

As for the 6SN7's, yes, there's a billion choices out there.  Currently on a 6F8G kick myself.  Melz 1578s are also an excellent option.

If you do decide to go with tubes that require adapters, I highly recommend the Woo-made ones - they're quite solidly built and excellent quality.

Feel free to ask any questions you may have - we're happy to help!


----------



## paradoxper

protoss said:


> *Brimar TP 300B *$200
> British Tubes 🇬🇧
> https://brimaruk.com/valves/triodes/brimar-300b/
> 
> ...


a friend offered these to me and we started discussing their origins. They are originally Sovtek.

The question I can't answer is how their tooling came to be as they were gearing up for manufacturing themselves.

I don't want to bother with another rebrand, no matter how cheap, they all are inferior.


----------



## FLTWS

@ColSaulTigh 

_*If it's a tube it's gotta be rolled, that's what it's all about. LOL!*_



ColSaulTigh said:


> Welcome to the club!
> 
> If you're looking for a pretty significant savings on your unit as well as a few extra tubes to play with, might I suggest looking at *@Bonddam 's Woo Audio WA5-LE that he has for sale in the Classsifieds section.*  $2k off for a basically new unit, not bad!


*That is a great price and I believe the warranty is transferable during the first year. And, we're probably only a 45 minute drive from each other in eastern PA. That zipcode was a part of my territory for work in the late 90's and early 2,000's.*
_*Wonder why he's selling it?*_


ColSaulTigh said:


> As for rectifiers, you've got a good selection there.  I'm currently running the Elrog 300B-Mo's (New Gen) in my system, and have all of the others you've mentioned.  If you want something that sounds more warm and gooey, I'd throw some Emission Labs into the mix.
> 
> Something else to consider is rectifiers.  They are as much impactful as the 300Bs in this setup.  I've run everything from USAF "Mighty" 596's to KR-Audio 5U4G "Riccardo Kron Anniversary Edition" (current) in my system.  Elrog 5U4G's are in the queue, waiting on them to get back in stock.
> 
> As for the 6SN7's, yes, there's a billion choices out there.  Currently on a 6F8G kick myself.  Melz 1578s are also an excellent option.


*I've got some 6F8G's and Melz in my inventory*


ColSaulTigh said:


> If you do decide to go with tubes that require adapters, I highly recommend the Woo-made ones - they're quite solidly built and excellent quality.


*I'd definitely go with Woo's.*


ColSaulTigh said:


> Feel free to ask any questions you may have - we're happy to help!


*Thanks*


----------



## FLTWS

I received a PM from one of the posters on this thread to say that the power output on these 300B's could be adequate to drive my SR1a with the new TI-1a. 
Something else to play with.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

paradoxper said:


> a friend offered these to me and we started discussing their origins. They are originally Sovtek.
> 
> The question I can't answer is how their tooling came to be as they were gearing up for manufacturing themselves.
> 
> I don't want to bother with another rebrand, no matter how cheap, they all are inferior.


Spoken by a true Elrog'er!


----------



## paradoxper

ColSaulTigh said:


> Spoken by a true Elrog'er!


Hey, at least I ordered the damn 4300E! LOL

I also ordered another pair of Elrog. 

Now I am done.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

paradoxper said:


> Hey, at least I ordered the damn 4300E! LOL
> 
> I also ordered another pair of Elrog.
> 
> Now I am done.


How many Elrogs are you going to get?

You're starting to become me with my tube collection!


----------



## paradoxper

ColSaulTigh said:


> How many Elrogs are you going to get?
> 
> You're starting to become me with my tube collection!


I have three pairs of Elrog with about twenty pairs of MELZ 1578. So I should be ok no matter how our future falls.

You are just a hoarder. LOL


----------



## ColSaulTigh

paradoxper said:


> I have three pairs of Elrog with about twenty pairs of MELZ 1578. So I should be ok no matter how our future falls.
> 
> You are just a hoarder. LOL


I resemble that remark!


----------



## ThanatosVI

FLTWS said:


> I’ll probably settle on 3 different pairs of 300B’s. The Takatsuki’s, WE’s, and Elrogs would seem to provide 3 different sonic palettes’,


Aren't the Takatsuki and Elrog on the same sonic Palette? (Genuinely asking, I heard neither)


----------



## FLTWS (Jul 15, 2022)

If I remember correctly somewhere on this thread was mentioned the Western Electric was a warmer/richer sound than the other two.
Of the Tak and Elrog, one was dead neutral and the other somewhere in between.
I believe there were some references to bass quality as well.
However, I could be wrong.
And, we all hear it differently so....

EDIT: Just looking at the prices (per pair I hope, on post 286 back on April 21) I would probably go  with Western Electric and Elrog.
         I'd wait for a sale on Takatsuki


----------



## ColSaulTigh

FLTWS said:


> If I remember correctly somewhere on this thread was mentioned the Western Electric was a warmer/richer sound than the other two.
> Of the Tak and Elrog, one was dead neutral and the other somewhere in between.
> I believe there were some references to bass quality as well.
> However, I could be wrong.
> ...


You can find Takatsuki's discounted so over the web.  They're usually heavily discounted from retail ...


----------



## protoss (Jul 15, 2022)

*JMTEC 300B *
NOS selling around $800 - $1200
*





*


----------



## protoss (Jul 15, 2022)

I think we discover close to 95% of 300B tubes now. 
The rest are all *Psvane*, *Shuguang *and *Linlai *cheap $100 to $300 tubes and rebrands.

I know for sure the amplifiers are about 98% found. I find it impossible to spot another amplifier.
The rest are all DIY amplifiers.


----------



## dadracer2

protoss said:


> I think we discover close to 95% of 300B tubes now.
> The rest are all *Psvane*, *Shuguang *and *Linlai *cheap $100 to $300 tubes and rebrands.
> 
> I know for sure the amplifiers are about 98% found. I find it impossible to spot another amplifier.
> The rest are all DIY amplifiers.


I think PSVANE and Linlai have some TOTL 300B not just budget valves, also they manufacture not just rebrands.


----------



## protoss

dadracer2 said:


> I think PSVANE and Linlai have some TOTL 300B not just budget valves, also they manufacture not just rebrands.


Yes, of course. Its been mention here a bit. 
The pic down below is what I was trying to say overall. 
This page you can scroll to infinity with cheap tubes.


----------



## dadracer2

protoss said:


> Yes, of course. Its been mention here a bit.
> The pic down below is what I was trying to say overall.
> This page you can scroll to infinity with cheap tubes.


Oh yes sure, I mistook your meaning. Some of these look like they probably aren't the real product...


----------



## protoss

*Audio tron HF-300B*
NOS around $800-1200
*



*


----------



## protoss (Jul 16, 2022)

*ZAIKA 300B*
They make amplifiers, a lot of them and have my personal favorite looking tube.
I like the look of this alot. This might be my personal NOS tube hunting 300b, one day 
NOS $1000-1400


----------



## protoss (Jul 16, 2022)

For fun, looking for the most expensive tube amplifier of all time and I found this one company that took the 1st and 2nd spot in being the most expensive amplifier. Sadly, no tubes inside.

2nd spot Andrea Pivetta Opera One amplifier $650,000


1st spot Andrea Pivetta Opera Only - 2 million dollars
-8 feet tall
-120,000-watts
-1.5 tonnes


----------



## protoss

If you were wondering who came in 3rd?
It was a tube amplifier  

*Ultrasound Otello *- $600,000
-Thermionic tubes
-10 PL519 tubes per channel
-6 transformers 
-solid walnut wood
-5 years to dream and build it


----------



## protoss (Jul 16, 2022)

The first digital computer "ENIAC" (1945) use 17,468 vacuum tubes.
The price of it equivalent to today is 6 million dollars.

If some say, "I dont like tubes and I am a 'audio science review' fanboy," tell them tubes won the war muthaf-er! 
"Distortion for the win!"


----------



## dadracer2

How about the 300B amp as an art installation? This chap has hand built a system featuring the Herb Reichert 300B amp and it is part of an art display at the Lisson Gallery in NYC right now!


----------



## lumdicks (Jul 18, 2022)

My Elrog arrived and It is gonna be fun.


----------



## JTbbb

lumdicks said:


> My Elrog arrived and It is gonna be fun.


Looking forward to your impressions. I have the Tak’s and WE’s awaiting the arrival of a new amp, and I keep looking at those Elrog’s. Me thinks all three will bring something to the table. And then to try all my 6sn7’s with each, should keep me amused for a long time.


----------



## lumdicks

JTbbb said:


> Looking forward to your impressions. I have the Tak’s and WE’s awaiting the arrival of a new amp, and I keep looking at those Elrog’s. Me thinks all three will bring something to the table. And then to try all my 6sn7’s with each, should keep me amused for a long time.


You are right that all these three sound amazingly but quite differently. I am still burning in the Elrog but my initial feeling is:

1. WE current production: sweet mid but a bit slow. Bass is sufficient but the texture is not the best in class. Imaging is good and rather forgiving for poor recording.

2. Elrog: Amazing bass with good quantity and texture. Treble is well extended but the mid is a bit recessed. Imaging is okay but I hope it will further improve after burning in. Not a typical 300B sound but overall the most high end signature among the three.

3. Fantastic mid and high with unbelievable airy presentation. Imaging is the best but bass is a bit weak but still sufficient for my preference.

4. 60s Vintage WE 300B: It is the smoothest one with sweetest mid. High low extension is not the best but the classical 300B sound provides a very enjoyable and musical presentation of music, especially vocal and chamber instruments.


----------



## JTbbb

lumdicks said:


> You are right that all these three sound amazingly but quite differently. I am still burning in the Elrog but my initial feeling is:
> 
> 1. WE current production: sweet mid but a bit slow. Bass is sufficient but the texture is not the best in class. Imaging is good and rather forgiving for poor recording.
> 
> ...


Thanks for that. Those Elrog’s are going to be hard to resist!


----------



## Dubstep Girl

300b forever!


----------



## paradoxper

Eat a metric of crow: the 4300E are seriously good. Whoa.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

paradoxper said:


> Eat a metric of crow: the 4300E are seriously good. Whoa.


Better than the Elrog?!?!


----------



## ThanatosVI

I love this thread.
Was looking for 300B preamps and reviewed the list on page 1.

During that I realized that 300B DACs were mentioned without the Big 7 Mk2 from Lampizator. 
https://www.lampizatorpoland.com/big-7-dac

Should be added to the liat imo


----------



## paradoxper

ColSaulTigh said:


> Better than the Elrog?!?!


Up to. Maybe. They are clearly better than WE, KR, EML, Tak. 300B tubes suck so hard compared to how these sound. LOL
These are not at all 300B -- they are ferocious in bass impact with so much punch, so much delineation.

I feel they are a step behind the Elrogs in resolution and macro retrieval (everything really is comparatively).

Less sweet than Elrog but more ...

Let's see.


----------



## FLTWS (Jul 18, 2022)

Interesting, made for Parts Connection by Psvane. Only $1,120 a pair!

https://www.partsconnexion.com/ANTUB4300E-86561.html


----------



## paradoxper

Sinking in further, 4300E is a rough balance of the Elrog 300B and EML solid plates -- no real focus across the spectrum only forceful in the pace. They are a step behind the ER and Mo in resolution, while presenting more forward, they don't dig out detail to the same degree; midrange is dryer but not recessed or sterile -- this may be the closest breathe of naturalness I've heard, expressive but not sweet or vivid (need to put these through the Valkyria for fuller context), this retention means you go neutral with soul. Dimensional space is a little closed in for a less grandiose but still retains excellent space axis - width, depth and height are inline with 300B it is big but nothing is lost.
The bigger differences with other 300B (or what is the 300B sound) effortless treble extension with no softness, or rolled edges.

I feel the class of old is being passed over -- why technicality is so much inclined than predecessors is directed at the material choices for the plates, anodes and filaments --
when you hear a ER300B and then a WE300B, it's immediate how warmed over and rolled the latter presents, when you hear an ER300B and then 4300E, it's immediate how perfectly balanced the spectrum is.

such great synergy


----------



## protoss

FLTWS said:


> Interesting, made for Parts Connection by Psvane. Only $1,120 a pair!
> 
> https://www.partsconnexion.com/ANTUB4300E-86561.html


That's a rip off?
Their own website priced it at €800 = $820usd
https://audionote.shop/valves/rohren/power-tubes-triodes-audionote-audio-note-4300e-300b


----------



## FLTWS

In their store I see this, still below $1,120.00


----------



## protoss

@FLTWS 

Ahh schiit, I did eur to usd. It was pounds to usd.


----------



## dadracer2

protoss said:


> @FLTWS
> 
> Ahh schiit, I did eur to usd. It was pounds to usd.


Also you may have duty/tax to pay as that price doesn't include those.


----------



## protoss

*Billington Gold 300B *

Just stylishly beautiful


----------



## paradoxper

FLTWS said:


> In their store I see this, still below $1,120.00


Apparently they just had a sale $780. A steal. 


protoss said:


> *Billington Gold 300B *
> 
> Just stylishly beautiful


These are reportedly Shuguang similar to Sophia Electric, they purchase large batches and match. Former Audio Note tubes also use to rebrand using Valve Arts.


----------



## protoss

CVC Chelmer valve Company Ltd is now in its 50th year, that offer access to one of the largest stocks of obsolete 
and hard to find commercial, industrial and military components in Europe.

I am assuming CVC tubes are also made by Shuguang ? 

*Chelmer 300B


*


----------



## paradoxper

Chelmer is a general rebrand outside of 300B so they'll be something Chinese.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

paradoxper said:


> Chelmer is a general rebrand outside of 300B so they'll be something Chinese.


They're priced as such.  I wouldn't hold out high hopes for any level of performance.


----------



## paradoxper

ColSaulTigh said:


> They're priced as such.  I wouldn't hold out high hopes for any level of performance.


There is just too much crap out there.


----------



## llamaluv (Jul 19, 2022)

I'm kind of thinking about getting a new pair of 300Bs that I really don't need and wouldn't mind some input.

I'm currently using *PSVane ACME 300Bs*, and in the context of my overall setup, I like them a lot for their solidity, tonal balance, and soundstage depth. I'm using a Cayin OG HA-300 with Duelund caps.

I wouldn't mind something with a little more bass punch. A little less midrange bloom wouldn't be so bad for my Atriums (though my guess is that this may have more to do with other factors than the power tubes, but I wouldn't mind if I could mitigate this with the power tubes). Finally, something with a little more detail would be great if it can be had without sacrificing body and depth.

For context, the last pair of 300Bs that I had-and-sold where Takatsukis. In my setup, I found them to be a little too "delicate" and a little bit unsubstantial, and flattened the soundstage compared to the ACMEs. The one thing I really want to preserve is that delicious sense of 300B soundstage depth. I wouldn't say I found them too bright for my tastes, though.

With that in mind, I've been thinking about the following:

- Those AudioNote tubes made by PSVane. Seeing how I like the ACME, seems like these could be a "safe" choice, and could bring about more resolution?, dunno.
- Elrogs? Because moar detail?
- KR's maybe, due to their reputation for bass?
- Western Electric, though I've heard they're even more midrange-y than other 300Bs

Thoughts?


----------



## ColSaulTigh

llamaluv said:


> I'm kind of thinking about getting a new pair of 300Bs that I really don't need and wouldn't mind some input.
> 
> I'm currently using *PSVane ACME 300Bs*, and in the context of my overall setup, I like them a lot for their solidity, tonal balance, and soundstage depth. I'm using a Cayin OG HA-300 with Duelund caps.
> 
> ...


You've got 4 winners there!  Wait for @paradoxper to chime in - he'll sell you Audio Note's all day long.  Me, in order> Elrog >KR 300b Riccardo Kron (if you can find them) > Western Electric.


----------



## paradoxper

ColSaulTigh said:


> You've got 4 winners there!  Wait for @paradoxper to chime in - he'll sell you Audio Note's all day long.  Me, in order> Elrog >KR 300b Riccardo Kron (if you can find them) > Western Electric.


Nods. 

Elrogs ain't just the resolution, they're the bass, they're the stage, they're the depth and the truth.

KR fit his bill of need/want, a little more substantial bass, still warm not overtly so.

Since he's using the Caying, I'd complement with the MELZ 1578. It will aid any in supplementing stage presence and provide exceptional bass response.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

paradoxper said:


> Nods.
> 
> Elrogs ain't just the resolution, they're the bass, they're the stage, they're the depth and the truth.
> 
> ...


Oh yeah, @paradoxper is the resident Melz pusher here, too....


----------



## llamaluv

ColSaulTigh said:


> You've got 4 winners there! Wait for @paradoxper to chime in - he'll sell you Audio Note's all day long. Me, in order> Elrog >KR 300b Riccardo Kron (if you can find them) > Western Electric.





paradoxper said:


> Elrogs ain't just the resolution, they're the bass, they're the stage, they're the depth and the truth.
> 
> KR fit his bill of need/want, a little more substantial bass, still warm not overtly so.
> 
> Since he's using the Caying, I'd complement with the MELZ 1578. It will aid any in supplementing stage presence and provide exceptional bass response.



Thanks for this. 

Yea, I may have to spring for some Elrogs. Or maybe wait first to hear the KRs from Ken if the stars align properly.

And I've been at an impasse in terms of my 6SN7 situation, so will definitely start clicking some buttons on some website to get to try out the MELZ


----------



## paradoxper

llamaluv said:


> Thanks for this.
> 
> Yea, I may have to spring for some Elrogs. Or maybe wait first to hear the KRs from Ken if the stars align properly.
> 
> And I've been at an impasse in terms of my 6SN7 situation, so will definitely start clicking some buttons on some website to get to try out the MELZ


Ken can share. He also has VT-231 which also is a compliment.

Tell Ken, your amp is broken, let me borrow. 🤣


----------



## nwavesailor

I've been looking for the 'right' pair of Melz.
 I have several pretty good pairs of 6SN7 and 6F8G but would like to see what the Melz could do in the Envy.


----------



## protoss

Elrog 211 and 300B


----------



## paradoxper

nwavesailor said:


> I've been looking for the 'right' pair of Melz.
> I have several pretty good pairs of 6SN7 and 6F8G but would like to see what the Melz could do in the Envy.


There are two good sources on eBay, one whom is, well, pricey, however, they are well worth it.


----------



## Whitigir

If anyone look for 300b top build amp, let me know.  I am selling tu-8900.  Thanks


----------



## ardbeg1975 (Jul 22, 2022)

300B newbie question -- I really love headphone tube amps. I have two (an LTA MZ3 and a Schiit Folkvangr). I was thinking of getting a third and had originally settled on a Decware Taboo IV. Any guidance (pros / cons) regarding acquiring a 300B to complete the triptych or should I stick with the Decware and avoid a "taste of the true black meat. The flesh of the giant aquatic Brazilian centipede" which is a 300B direct heated triode head amp? If I do go down this path, I'd like to stay at or under $6500. Thank you.


----------



## Gazza (Jul 22, 2022)

ardbeg1975 said:


> 300B newbie question -- I really love headphone tube amps. I have two (an LTA MZ3 and a Schiit Folkvangr). I was thinking of getting a third and had originally settled on a Decware Taboo IV. Any guidance (pros / cons) regarding acquiring a 300B to complete the triptych or should I stick with the Declare and avoid a "taste of the true black meat. The flesh of the giant aquatic Brazilian centipede" which is a 300B direct heated triode head amp? If I do go down this path, I'd like to stay at or under $6500. Thank you.



It's a little over your budget but I can't recommend my *Manley Audio Labs Neo-Classic 300B preamplifier* enough. Like the name suggests it's not just an incredible headphone amp but a reference-class preamp (to my ears) that I feel is actually a bargain for what you get. It's also built like an absolute tank. Despite rippling with valves it produces a muscular, hard-hitting sound that handles all genres (from blistering black metal to husky singer-songwriters) alongside all the valve-like benefits you expect. Throws the biggest, most holographic soundstage I have ever heard. If you can try and get a demo. You won't be disappointed.


----------



## dadracer2

ardbeg1975 said:


> 300B newbie question -- I really love headphone tube amps. I have two (an LTA MZ3 and a Schiit Folkvangr). I was thinking of getting a third and had originally settled on a Decware Taboo IV. Any guidance (pros / cons) regarding acquiring a 300B to complete the triptych or should I stick with the Decware and avoid a "taste of the true black meat. The flesh of the giant aquatic Brazilian centipede" which is a 300B direct heated triode head amp? If I do go down this path, I'd like to stay at or under $6500. Thank you.





Gazza said:


> It's a little over your budget but I can't recommend my *Manley Audio Labs Neo-Classic 300B preamplifier* enough. Like the name suggests it's not just an incredible headphone amp but a reference-class preamp (to my ears) that I feel is actually a bargain for what you get. It's also built like an absolute tank. Despite rippling with valves it produces a muscular, hard-hitting sound that handles all genres (from blistering black metal to husky singer-songwriters) alongside all the valve-like benefits you expect. Throws the biggest, most holographic soundstage I have ever heard. If you can try and get a demo. You won't be disappointed.


It's a great amp, but alternatively you could go for the Cayin HA300 mk2 and save yourself some cash to spend on something delightful from Islay?


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Right in the middle is the Woo Audio WA5-LE.  With upgraded internals, it's about $5,600.

Fantastic amp with plenty of heart and soul.


----------



## ardbeg1975

Thank you for the feedback. Also, what are general thoughts on the Agartha rev 2?


----------



## protoss

The eagle has finally landed! 
After 4 months, over $4K+
Sadly, too busy to open and busy weekend. Hopefully next week 😀
No guessing.


----------



## Nicolas Yance

protoss said:


> The eagle has finally landed!
> After 4 months, over $4K+
> Sadly, too busy to open and busy weekend. Hopefully next week 😀
> No guessing.


Cayin or Woo?


----------



## ardbeg1975

dadracer2 said:


> It's a great amp, but alternatively you could go for the Cayin HA300 mk2 and save yourself some cash to spend on something delightful from Islay?


True. I do have an untouched bottle of Ardbeg 1978 I've been holding onto since the mid-90s waiting for an excuse to be opened.


----------



## protoss

@Nicolas Yance 
hey no guessing 😜 
Next week 

@ardbeg1975 
I love me some peaty *smoky* Islay whiskey 
It's my favorite drink.


----------



## dadracer2

protoss said:


> @Nicolas Yance
> hey no guessing 😜
> Next week
> 
> ...


Sorry to be pedantic guys but if it’s from Scotland then it’s Whisky.


----------



## protoss

dadracer2 said:


> Sorry to be pedantic guys but if it’s from Scotland then it’s Whisky.


Good knowledge 👌 did not know

"Over the course of the late 19th century, many of the big Irish distillers began to spell whiskey with an e in order to differentiate their whiskey from its Scottish competitors."


----------



## dadracer2

protoss said:


> Good knowledge 👌 did not know
> 
> "Over the course of the late 19th century, many of the big Irish distillers began to spell whiskey with an e in order to differentiate their whiskey from its Scottish competitors."


Slàinte Mhath


----------



## ColSaulTigh

In case anyone is interested, I found a pair of my beloved *KR-Audio 5U4G Riccardo Kron Anniversary Edition Rectifier tubes* for sale.  I've bought from him before, excellent seller, but he's firm on his price.

Go get 'em!

*


*


----------



## protoss

I played it safe and got EML 300B $700
5 year warranty!! <- recommended just on that


----------



## ColSaulTigh

protoss said:


> I played it safe and got EML 300B $700
> 5 year warranty!! <- recommended just on that


I have a couple of variants of those including these monsters...


----------



## protoss

@ColSaulTigh

Yeah, I forgot to ask you.
Can you do a *mini sound review* on all the EML versions? I am assuming you heard or have them all?

EML 300B
EML 300B Mesh
EML 300B-XLS
EML 520B


----------



## ColSaulTigh

protoss said:


> @ColSaulTigh
> 
> Yeah, I forgot to ask you.
> Can you do a *mini sound review* on all the EML versions? I am assuming you heard or have them all?
> ...


I have them all except the 300B Mesh, which I need to research to see if they will work in the WA5-LE without exploding (they're designed for lower -powered amps).

http://www.emissionlabs.com/datasheets/EML300B-mesh.html

The others all sound the same, the only difference being power handling.

EML solid plate tubes are strong tubes with a richer sound, not quite as bright and sparkly on the top end.  They can pack a nice punch and are a great choice when listening to blues, jazz, and more bass-heavy music.

They're not my favorites (currently my Elrog 300B-Mo), but they tank up there, tied with my WE300Bs and the RK300B RK's.  The number 3 spot is the Takatsuki.

I'm debating about picking up the Audio Note 300B to test it, waiting for more info from @paradoxper.


----------



## protoss (Jul 23, 2022)

Thanks, my dealer had 300B, Mesh, and XLS; I had the funds for anything but wanted to play it safe and got the EML 300B (solid plate), aka the normal version.

Doing so much research, Emission Lab is absolutely a legendary company! From their knowledge and everything, I just had to have their items! 

Highly recommend Emission lab just based on their knowledge and, of course, five-year warranty. They have a graph explaining their failure rate is 0.01% in their tubes.
Impressive stuff.

http://www.emissionlabs.com/index.html


----------



## ColSaulTigh

protoss said:


> Thanks, my dealer had 300B, Mesh, and XLS; I had the funds for anything but wanted to play it safe and got the EML 300B (solid plate), aka the normal version.
> 
> Doing so much research, Emission Lab is absolutely a legendary company! From their knowledge and everything, I just had to have their items!
> 
> ...


Get their mesh rectifiers, too (assuming your amp uses either 274B or 5U4G).  They're nice and lush.


----------



## ThanatosVI

protoss said:


> I played it safe and got EML 300B $700
> 5 year warranty!! <- recommended just on that


Hopefully you never need to make use of the warranty. 

There are many horrible reports here on head-fi about horrible warranty treatment from EMLs side...


----------



## protoss

ThanatosVI said:


> Hopefully you never need to make use of the warranty.
> 
> There are many horrible reports here on head-fi about horrible warranty treatment from EMLs side...


Really.

That's a shame. Probably they filled out the warranty card wrong? It's somewhat thorough.


----------



## ThanatosVI

protoss said:


> Really.
> 
> That's a shame. Probably they filled out the warranty card wrong? It's somewhat thorough.


Nah nothing to do with the warranty card.

More things like, it took 6 months until finally a replacement was sent.

Or when a tube from a matched pair died, only the defect tube was replaced and the replacement wasn't matched to the other anymore (which leads to channel imbalance in many amps)


----------



## ColSaulTigh

I don't have any long-term experience with them, however, the EML tubes I have vary from 6-7 years old to NIB.  I've not had a single issue out of the 8(ish) tubes I've run so far.  I know, a very small sampling, but so far, so good.  In contrast, the new-gen Elrog 274B's I bought last month popped immediately.  The 300B-Mo's are working ok so far, though.


----------



## protoss

From their own reports (EML) their failure rate is extremely low.


----------



## nwavesailor (Jul 24, 2022)

ThanatosVI said:


> Nah nothing to do with the warranty card.
> 
> More things like, it took 6 months until finally a replacement was sent.
> 
> Or when a tube from a matched pair died, only the defect tube was replaced and the replacement wasn't matched to the other anymore (which leads to channel imbalance in many amps)


I agree 5 years (EML and WE) of warranty are great but I also read quite a few posts regarding slow replacements under warranty with EML. I’ve had a few of their 5AU4’s and never had an issue. Nothing in life is for certain and I’m sure your solid plate 300B will be fine!!!

I opted for the basic Elrog’s arriving later this week based on  positive reviews.


----------



## ardbeg1975

ardbeg1975 said:


> 300B newbie question -- I really love headphone tube amps. I have two (an LTA MZ3 and a Schiit Folkvangr). I was thinking of getting a third and had originally settled on a Decware Taboo IV. Any guidance (pros / cons) regarding acquiring a 300B to complete the triptych or should I stick with the Decware and avoid a "taste of the true black meat. The flesh of the giant aquatic Brazilian centipede" which is a 300B direct heated triode head amp? If I do go down this path, I'd like to stay at or under $6500. Thank you.


I was able to get in the 2022 build run of Eddie Current Studio B. I also picked up some Sophia Electric blue glass 300Bs (I believe I read on here they were pretty good) as I have had positive experience with some of their other tubes and to be honest because "they are blue, b@tch".


----------



## nwavesailor (Jul 24, 2022)

Bought a better tester (my modest B & K is a no-go) for 300B's.
I suppose that is a little bit kooky but so is buying pairs of tubes for $1000 or more!


----------



## ColSaulTigh

nwavesailor said:


> Bought a better tester (my modest B & K is a no-go) for 300B's.
> I suppose that is a little bit kooky but so is buying pairs of tubes for $1000 or more!


Why is buying $1,000+ tubes "kooky"?


----------



## protoss

ardbeg1975 said:


> I was able to get in the 2022 build run of Eddie Current Studio B.


Wow you copy me or I copy you. 😃

So I was able to just open package 📦  today. Nothing else sadly.

Eddie Current Studio B 300B version. 

The packaging is excellent, cost me $300. Not happy about that. But it's safe and secure.





I asked Craig to make my amp speical and he was confused 😆 
But he signed it! So I'm pretty sure my amp is one of a kind 😀




I just placed it on the table. No time to listen or anything. Pictures sucks. It looks amazing in real life.


----------



## nwavesailor

I didn't say full on 'hug me jacket' kooky, just a little bit!


----------



## ardbeg1975

protoss said:


> Wow you copy me or I copy you. 😃
> 
> So I was able to just open package 📦  today. Nothing else sadly.
> 
> ...


Awesome. Looking forward to receiving  mine. What tubes are you going to use?


----------



## protoss

ardbeg1975 said:


> Awesome. Looking forward to receiving  mine. What tubes are you going to use?



I just got EML 300B for safety measures 

I also ordered, 
Shuguang Natural Sound 300B
and
PSvane Cossor 300B

Fun fact, I had $1500, and I was like, okay, time to buy Elrog or WE300B. And then I taught about it and was thinking? 
Why? 
I need to understand the* overlords *aka Shuguang, and understand them, and I decided to get Psvane Cossor 300B in blue as it looked cool. LOL

That's how I spent *Elrog* $$$$ 
So in total: EML 300B, Shuguang Natural Sound (current flagship) and PSvane Cossor 300B (BLUE) = $1500


----------



## protoss (Jul 24, 2022)

@ardbeg1975

Now its time to get two nice bottles with the amp.
1 Ardbeg 10
1 laphroaig 10 CS
and maybe bruichladdich port charlotte 10

These girls are hilarious and the show in general is great


----------



## nwavesailor (Jul 24, 2022)

protoss said:


> I just got EML 300B for safety measures
> 
> I also ordered,
> Shuguang Natural Sound 300B
> ...


Good luck!
You may find a true gem between the 3 pairs.

I spent years looking for giant killer tubes and this time decided to just go for the Elrogs. I buy too many tubes and most sit unused in boxes.

First trip down the 300B rabbit hole and I don’t need more pairs of unused tubes although I ‘may’ buy the Audio Note 4300E too!!!😵‍💫


----------



## nwavesailor

I sometimes forget when listening to tubes from WW2 that these have held vacuum for nearly 80 years. I don’t have any from the 1930’s but I’m sure some of you do!

That is simply stunning AND they sound great


----------



## paradoxper

ColSaulTigh said:


> I have them all except the 300B Mesh, which I need to research to see if they will work in the WA5-LE without exploding (they're designed for lower -powered amps).
> 
> http://www.emissionlabs.com/datasheets/EML300B-mesh.html
> 
> ...


I finished comparing the AN today. I'm left with the impression the Elrogs won't be rolled. I like the ER more than the Mo as it's more inner sweet but 
I'll be moving the 4300E as it won't get further use. My last pursuit is tracking down the TM300B.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

paradoxper said:


> I finished comparing the AN today. I'm left with the impression the Elrogs won't be rolled. I like the ER more than the Mo as it's more inner sweet but
> I'll be moving the 4300E as it won't get further use. My last pursuit is tracking down the TM300B.


do I smell the opportunity to add them to my collection on the cheap?!?!?


----------



## paradoxper

ColSaulTigh said:


> do I smell the opportunity to add them to my collection on the cheap?!?!?


I never turn down a hoarder. And I always pay it forward.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

ColSaulTigh said:


> do I smell the opportunity to add them to my collection on the cheap?!?!?


Also, did they ever manufacture the TM's?


----------



## paradoxper

ColSaulTigh said:


> Also, did they ever manufacture the TM's?


He's an ass and only supplies them with his amplifier.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

paradoxper said:


> He's an ass and only supplies them with his amplifier.


Buy amp and tubes, flip amp.

...or maybe his amp ain't half bad and should be in your collection...


----------



## paradoxper

ColSaulTigh said:


> Buy amp and tubes, flip amp.
> 
> ...or maybe his amp ain't half bad and should be in your collection...


I know a few people with his amp so will check how the availability works. 

I am bringing in a Manley 300B to compare but I'm otherwise done.

Bored. Happy as glutton.


----------



## Gazza

paradoxper said:


> I know a few people with his amp so will check how the availability works.
> 
> *I am bringing in a Manley 300B to compare* but I'm otherwise done.
> 
> Bored. Happy as glutton.



Ooooooh, looking forward to hearing your thoughts. Love mine to pieces.


----------



## protoss

So has "EAT" been overlooked? 
$1,695.00


----------



## ardbeg1975

protoss said:


> I just got EML 300B for safety measures
> 
> I also ordered,
> Shuguang Natural Sound 300B
> ...


You sticking with stock rectifier and input tubes or no?


----------



## protoss

Alright I love EAT now! Not only they sell 300B tubes but they sell scented candles and cologne! 

This is hilarious! Smell good while you listen to tubes! 
I might literally buy the cologne. $70




T


----------



## protoss

ardbeg1975 said:


> You sticking with stock rectifier and input tubes or no?


I am sticking with stock as of now as I want to understand the amp and craigs picks.


----------



## ardbeg1975

protoss said:


> @ardbeg1975
> 
> Now its time to get two nice bottles with the amp.
> 1 Ardbeg 10
> ...



Although I love Islay whisky, my true passion is Cambeltown so perhaps an obscure Springbank distillation.


----------



## ardbeg1975 (Jul 25, 2022)

protoss said:


> I am sticking with stock as of now as I want to understand the amp and craigs picks.


Cool. Also, I really enjoyed the Shug CV181-Z Treasure in a 6sn7 amp I used to own so very curious on your impressions of their 300B once you get everything setup,


----------



## protoss

ardbeg1975 said:


> Cool. Also, I really enjoyed the Shug CV181-Z Treasure in a 6sn7 amp I used to own so very curious on your impressions of their 300B once you get everything setup,


Yeah, I cant wait. It shipped last week. I should have it by Wednesday or Friday the latest.

Got the "Natural Sound," it supposed to be their current flagship over their treasure series. I am looking forward and hoping for positive news with Shuguang.

I am thinking to black out the Studio B 
*Black* 300B
*Black* rectifier
*Black *driver tubes

Are their black treasure rectifiers and driver tubes that is compatible with the studio? Im not sure myself?


----------



## protoss (Jul 25, 2022)

Checked the Manuel: Studio B

-The 5AR4 tube may be substituted with the 5Y3 or 5R4
rectifier tubes, but no other tubes are recommended.

-The 5670W may be substituted with the 2C51, 6N3P, 6854,
396A. No other tubes are recommended.

If anyone knows some *black tubes* with these models. Post them up please, if not its okay


----------



## ThanatosVI

We need a @paradoxper 300B impressions post/thread with the info and impressions about all the 300Bs you tried.


----------



## Toonartist

@ThanatosVI I was just thinking the same 

Once I've ran in the Envy I will be looking for a pair of 300b's around the £1k mark or a little more. 

I've narrowed it down to Audio Note AN-4300E, Elrog ER300b and the Western Electric WE300b current build. The long term plan would be to have 2 sets of higher end tubes with a contrasting style. These will supplement a cheaper daily runners that will be used while working.


----------



## ThanatosVI

Toonartist said:


> @ThanatosVI I was just thinking the same
> 
> Once I've ran in the Envy I will be looking for a pair of 300b's around the £1k mark or a little more.
> 
> I've narrowed it down to Audio Note AN-4300E, Elrog ER300b and the Western Electric WE300b current build. The long term plan would be to have 2 sets of higher end tubes with a contrasting style. These will supplement a cheaper daily runners that will be used while working.


However Elrog has 2 300B Variants.(regular and Molybdenum?)

Then there are 3 EML Variants and maybe the 520B if Envy can use it.

KR Audio also has 300B for ~1k the pair

As well as E.A.T

There are quite a lot of similar priced/high end 300B tubes on the market.

The Envy looks magnificent and would be my amp of choice. If I were to own it in addition to my Octave,  I'd go for the warmer Western Electric tubes (first), if it would replace my Octave than probably the more linear Elrogs.
At least we narrowed it down to the same tubes xD


----------



## Toonartist (Jul 26, 2022)

I'd seen the others but was sort of narrowing it down a little. I couldn't find a source to buy the E.A.T in the UK.

I have a feeling though that your first choice would also be mine. I also like the idea of a 5yr warranty that come with the WE300b and from what I've read, a long life span in terms of hours use. They would be a good starting point. Although the Elrog 300B do sound very appealing. The thought of their good bass slam with the Elites could be an excellent combo.

I'll be starting out with the Electro Harmonix Gold 300B tubes and intend to run these in to get a feel as to how they sound on the amp after everything has run in. Then, I can use them as a reference point... i.e. how the WE300b / AN4300 etc sound compared to them.


----------



## ThanatosVI

Toonartist said:


> I'd seen the others but was sort of narrowing it down a little. I couldn't find a source to buy the E.A.T in the UK.
> 
> I have a feeling though that your first choice would also be mine. I also like the idea of a 5yr warranty that come with the WE300b and from what I've read, a long life span in terms of hours use. They would be a good starting point. Although the Elrog 300B do sound very appealing.
> 
> I'll be starting out with the Electro Harmonix Gold 300B tubes and intend to run these in to get a feel as to how they sound on the amp after everything has run in. Then, I can use them as a reference point... i.e. how the WE300b / AN4300 etc sound compared to them.


These here should ship to UK.
https://www.technologyfactory.eu/en/eat/tubes/eat-tube-300b-matched-pair/a-3705-10000258

Never ordered there myself tho, and it's still from outside the uk


----------



## Toonartist

ThanatosVI said:


> These here should ship to UK.
> https://www.technologyfactory.eu/en/eat/tubes/eat-tube-300b-matched-pair/a-3705-10000258
> 
> Never ordered there myself tho, and it's still from outside the uk



Thanks... bookmarked. No problem with EU retailers... I just looking to keep to good reliable sources. We have one for the Elrogs in the UK and I guess most will have to buy the WE300b from the US anyway, which again shouldn't be an issue.

Hoping, that I should see some movement from the Envy in the 1st week of Aug so shouldn't be too long now! By then it would have been about 11 weeks.


----------



## ThanatosVI

Toonartist said:


> Thanks... bookmarked. No problem with EU retailers... I just looking to keep to good reliable sources. We have one for the Elrogs in the UK and I guess most will have to buy the WE300b from the US anyway, which again shouldn't be an issue.
> 
> Hoping, that I should see some movement from the Envy in the 1st week of Aug so shouldn't be too long now! By then it would have been about 11 weeks.


You can order the WE from BTB-elektronik in germany as well


----------



## nwavesailor (Jul 26, 2022)

Toonartist said:


> Hoping, that I should see some movement from the Envy in the 1st week of Aug so shouldn't be too long now! By then it would have been about 11 weeks.


I think you will find the Envy _IS_ worth the wait!

If the EH sound this good with a variety of 6SN7's in the Envy, I can't wait for the Elrogs to arrive later this week.
The Envy is my first 300B amp and I am happy with the sound at only 10-12 hours so far.


----------



## Toonartist

ThanatosVI said:


> You can order the WE from BTB-elektronik in germany as well



Also bookmarked. They have quite a selection of 300b tubes, cheers.



nwavesailor said:


> I think you will find the Envy _IS_ worth the wait!
> 
> If the EH sound this good with a variety of 6SN7's in the Envy, I can't wait for the Elrogs to arrive later this week.
> The Envy is my first 300B amp and I am happy with the sound at only 10-12 hours so far.



Sounds very promising indeed, can't wait! Once it arrives, I'll be listening to it while I work so I should be able to rack up quite a few hours a week (6-8 per day).


----------



## paradoxper (Jul 26, 2022)

ThanatosVI said:


> We need a @paradoxper 300B impressions post/thread with the info and impressions about all the 300Bs you tried.


I rather focus on bulletin comparisons rather than write paragraphs of text with subjectivity being so strong it's more fitting.
At this point I've heard most 300B's especially the big boys, the rest are generalized under the WE 300B spec so they follow the warm character which doesn't interest me.
There's also too much overlap with Shuguang, Psvane and Linlai employing the same circular engineering, this also extends to EAT which is comprised of a broken AVVT which also overlaps with EML (which is VAIC). It's actually quite funny, the AN 4300E also overlaps with Elrog as they originally consulted with Klaus Schaffernicht. 300B is a small world.


----------



## protoss (Jul 27, 2022)

paradoxper said:


> 300B is a small world.


What you wrote instantly made me remember this song. 

"Whatever goes around comes around, doesn't matter who you are, its all the same." Small world


----------



## ColSaulTigh (Jul 26, 2022)

paradoxper said:


> I rather focus on bulletin comparisons rather than write paragraphs of text with subjectivity being so strong it's more fitting.
> At this point I've heard most 300B's especially the big boys, the rest are generalized under the WE 300B spec so they follow the warm character which doesn't interest me.
> There's also too much overlap with Shuguang, Psvane and Linlai employing the same circular engineering, this also extends to EAT which is comprised of a broken AVVT which also overlaps with EML (which is VAIC). It's actually quite funny, the AN 4300E also overlaps with Elrog as they originally consulted with Klaus Schaffernicht. 300B is a small world.


Is VAIC still in business?  I thought they closed shop and re-started with EML?

EDIT:  Found an interesting read *HERE*


----------



## paradoxper

ColSaulTigh said:


> Is VAIC still in business?  I thought they closed shop and re-started with EML?
> 
> EDIT:  Found an interesting read *HERE*


It's curious how Czech cycled just as China with KR, AVVT, EML (all the same engineer teams and Vaic name leadership) and crazy how long both Jacmusic and Audio Note have been around contracting things into production.


----------



## protoss




----------



## bobmysterious

Sooooo... What do you think?


----------



## protoss

bobmysterious said:


> Sooooo... What do you think?



I like it a lot; it has that industrial world war I/II look to it; it reminds me of a mini Panzer II. 
I like the volume knob; it has a nice feeling. 
The SE jack input is a little stiff. 
I wish the amp had balanced outputs at the back. 
The biggest complaint I have is that I forgot to tell Craig I needed the socket rotated so that I could see the 300B logos  
Overall, the build is 10/10

Craig and Judy were great. The payment and shipping went smoothly.
Sound: I have EML 300B solid-state version, aka the standard version. Only 10hrs broken in. So it is hard to say about the sound. 
So far, with a clean DAC, Studio B has zero distortion, hiss, or problems. It has a wide staging with a full, rich sound. I am getting a nice tub-y sound so far that I like. 
So far, so good! I approve!


----------



## normie610

paradoxper said:


> I am bringing in a Manley 300B to compare but I'm otherwise done.


Ha! This should be interesting 😜


----------



## WillieB

Gazza said:


> Ooooooh, looking forward to hearing your thoughts. Love mine to pieces.


This answered my question from the rectifier board, LOL. Glad to hear that about the Manley as well!


----------



## protoss

Morning 🌄
Blasting off to a great start, 4hrs in and it's almost afternoon time! 🙌






Growing up in the 90s, this movie and soundtrack was bonkers! 
Im hype now  

Time to hit the gym and get rdy to climb a mountain in a few months


----------



## protoss

Got home, 

And a ninja box 📦  was waiting outside for me.

Open it up and bang. Our overlords sent me something.


----------



## ThanatosVI

protoss said:


> Got home,
> 
> And a ninja box 📦  was waiting outside for me.
> 
> Open it up and bang. Our overlords sent me something.


They do look nice.


----------



## protoss

My last 300B tube I will get until I rest are the TJ Music 300b's

TJ Music has discontinue making tubes and only NOS pairs are left. So, that's my decision to obtain at least one pair to try out.

Having a total of 4 pairs:

EML 300B
Shuguang Natural Sound 300B
PsVane Cossor 300B
TJ FullMusic 300B *----TBD*


----------



## ardbeg1975

protoss said:


> My last 300B tube I will get until I rest are the TJ Music 300b's
> 
> TJ Music has discontinue making tubes and only NOS pairs are left. So, that's my decision to obtain at least one pair to try out.
> 
> ...


Anybody make a sonically appealing, blue glass 5670W or compatible so I can go full “Breaking Bad” blue on the Studio B?


----------



## protoss

ardbeg1975 said:


> Anybody make a sonically appealing, blue glass 5670W or compatible so I can go full “Breaking Bad” blue on the Studio B?


Haha, I said the same thing for a all black out Studio B. Sadly I can not find any black or any other color beside the normal.


----------



## ardbeg1975

protoss said:


> Haha, I said the same thing for a all black out Studio B. Sadly I can not find any black or any other color beside the normal.


Too bad. Oh well.


----------



## paradoxper (Jul 28, 2022)

ardbeg1975 said:


> Anybody make a sonically appealing, blue glass 5670W or compatible so I can go full “Breaking Bad” blue on the Studio B?


The closest you will get is Sophia's Classic. They suck though (so does the 274B). Alternative is a complement of their Aqua 6SN7 which is pretty good until compared to the MELZ 1578 but it's blue.


----------



## paradoxper

protoss said:


> Haha, I said the same thing for a all black out Studio B. Sadly I can not find any black or any other color beside the normal.


Shuguang has an older Treasure series 300B that is all black. Never heard that although the Treasure series all follow.


----------



## ThanatosVI

protoss said:


> Haha, I said the same thing for a all black out Studio B. Sadly I can not find any black or any other color beside the normal.


Linlai has black tubes as Alternative to the Black treasures.

They also bought the tools from fullmusic and produce a "reproduction" of sorts


----------



## protoss

They call this the "*Potato Masher*" 

The 5R4WGB was developed for use in B-52 bombers and is very rugged and long lasting. It will drop the B+ and can handle well over 200ma of current. This rectifier is great to use when you want to drop B+ and get more sag out of your amp. 

Has anyone heard or know about this? 
I believe this is compatible with the Studio B. 
looks interesting.


----------



## nwavesailor

Elrogs delivered today.
I’ll roll them in later tonight with the Raytheon 6SN7 and then the Melz 1578.


----------



## paradoxper

nwavesailor said:


> Elrogs delivered today.
> I’ll roll them in later tonight with the Raytheon 6SN7 and then the Melz 1578.


----------



## protoss

I know what I am doing tonight 😌


----------



## ardbeg1975

paradoxper said:


> The closest you will get is Sophia's Classic. They suck though (so does the 274B). Alternative is a complement of their Aqua 6SN7 which is pretty good until compared to the MELZ 1578 but it's blue.


Yep. I have a Sophia blue glass 6SN7 and a MELZ and agree the MELZ is better.


----------



## nwavesailor

They look awesome...........






Now, what do they SOUND like??????


----------



## justanut

nwavesailor said:


> They look awesome...........
> 
> 
> 
> Now, what do they SOUND like??????


Bill offered to come my place with a pair to audition + MOs.. but I'm hesitating after seeing the price list.. what if I MUST HAVE them after the audition? Its either them or my kids... can only afford one 🤣


----------



## nwavesailor

A BIG thanks to @paradoxper for his take on the various 300B’s and for taking the time to share his impressions.

I went from the stock EH to the Elrond’s and they are indeed the real deal.

Great staging, incredible treble extension w/o any harshness nice tight bass and gobs of detail…… crazy good at a whopping 15 minutes in cold right out of the box!!!! The decay is stunning as well.

At the risk of sounding like a ton of posts here on HeadFi, I am playing music I have heard forever and hearing things so clearly and balanced I have never heard before tonight.

It’s gonna be a late night and this is with Raytheon’s not the 1578’s😵‍💫


----------



## nwavesailor (Jul 29, 2022)

I am simply stunned……

Envy with Sus snd Elrogs 🤪

I didn’t think the Sus could do bass this deep w/o EQ


----------



## protoss

Super jelly.

I have to convince myself to resist 😆


----------



## ThanatosVI

protoss said:


> Super jelly.
> 
> I have to convince myself to resist 😆


Resist to buy the tubes or the amp?


----------



## protoss

ThanatosVI said:


> Resist to buy the tubes or the amp?


Not the amp. I'm satisfied with my amplifier.

The tubes, and also I'm pretty happy with my EML 300B. There's technically nothing wrong with Emission Lab. I think everyone should own EML products to be honest.


----------



## ThanatosVI

protoss said:


> Not the amp. I'm satisfied with my amplifier.
> 
> The tubes, and also I'm pretty happy with my EML 300B. There's technically nothing wrong with Emission Lab. I think everyone should own EML products to be honest.


I also love my Octave amplifier,  but that Envy tempts me to buy it for a year now...

EML certainly is an innovator in the tube area. The idea to use Octal sockets for DHTs to connect the noisy Heater curcuit via different Pins is quite interesting. 
If I were to build a custom amp,  I certainly would consider matching it to those sockets.

I also never read that someone was dissapointed with the sound performance of EML tubes


----------



## protoss (Jul 29, 2022)

ThanatosVI said:


> I also never read that someone was dissapointed with the sound performance of EML tubes


Yeah, I just got Shuguang and PsVane 300B tubes and I have no desire to remove my EML 300B from my amp to try those at the moment.

EML 300B sounds so nice. 🔥


----------



## paradoxper

nwavesailor said:


> A BIG thanks to @paradoxper for his take on the various 300B’s and for taking the time to share his impressions.
> 
> I went from the stock EH to the Elrond’s and they are indeed the real deal.
> 
> ...


The Elrogs are just on a different level.

To many, many late nights!


----------



## JTbbb

nwavesailor said:


> A BIG thanks to @paradoxper for his take on the various 300B’s and for taking the time to share his impressions.
> 
> I went from the stock EH to the Elrond’s and they are indeed the real deal.
> 
> ...


Arrgh! This is making my wait even more agonising 😩


----------



## Toonartist

JTbbb said:


> Arrgh! This is making my wait even more agonising 😩



Oh I know  🥴

Surely it can't be too much longer for us now 👍🏻😃


----------



## fanteskiller

nwavesailor said:


> I am simply stunned……
> 
> Envy with Sus snd Elrogs 🤪
> 
> I didn’t think the Sus could do bass this deep w/o EQ


What amp?


----------



## JTbbb

fanteskiller said:


> What amp?


Feliks Envy. Recently introduced .


----------



## protoss

I remember on page 4 I was contemplating on getting the Envy.
But I was bully out of it <- joking 🙈🤣


----------



## ThanatosVI

protoss said:


> I remember on page 4 I was contemplating on getting the Envy.
> But I was bully out of it <- joking 🙈🤣


Best looking 300B amp imo


----------



## protoss

The guys are on it.
Envy video


----------



## protoss

I still like the look of my amp 😛 
And my knob feels better.


----------



## incredulousity

nwavesailor said:


> I am simply stunned……
> 
> Envy with Sus snd Elrogs 🤪
> 
> I didn’t think the Sus could do bass this deep w/o EQ


Which Elrogs and what are your drivers?  Melz?


----------



## lumdicks (Jul 29, 2022)

ThanatosVI said:


> Best looking 300B amp imo





Elrog 300B on my Fostex HP-V8 is gorgeous on both the look and the sound.


----------



## nwavesailor

incredulousity said:


> Which Elrogs and what are your drivers?  Melz?


ER300B and with the Melz 1578 later tonight. The photo is with 1940's USN Raytheon 6SN7


----------



## protoss (Jul 29, 2022)

I was asked and now it's installed.
It's pretty darn good, hard to say now if it is great. I will slighty give the nod to the EML300B. Let's see.

Shuguang Natural Sound 300B




I noticed I need to push the SNS harder than the EML300B. The volume needs to be raised by at least 25%


----------



## protoss

Okay its kicking in. 1hr + in. 

The Shuguang is warmer, denser, darker, with a heavy body. I think (guessing) this tube will sound very rich after 100+ hrs.  

The EML300B is creamy with a neutral tone to it. 

Interesting so far, I like this as I do not want the same tube sound as I do not like the same Headphone sound signature.


----------



## nwavesailor (Jul 29, 2022)

I have perhaps 2 hours on the Elrtogs but I knew within minutes they were something special.
I'll agree they may improve with some more time but I am not a long tube burn in believer. YMMV


----------



## protoss

nwavesailor said:


> I have perhaps 2 hours on the Elrtogs but I knew within minutes they were something special.
> I'll agree they may improve with some more time but I am not a long tube burn in believer. YMMV


Yeah, I cant wait for a 100 to 500hr burn in to have a opinion. I am already formulating my opinions on my tubes.


----------



## protoss (Jul 30, 2022)

*CETRON 300B*
NOS $1000 - $2500

Cetron Brand 300B was made by Richardson Electronics. The tube was a late 80’s 300B designs, when Western Electric stopped production, Richardson decided to fill the gap.
https://www.rell.com/


----------



## protoss (Jul 30, 2022)

PsVane Cossor 300B (BLUE)


----------



## nwavesailor

Nice blue but…… how do they sound???

I can’t believe the Elrogs instant on heaters and they glow so brightly.


----------



## protoss

I am getting a revelatory experiences with all 3 tubes of mine now.

My revelation is hinting to me that 1 *Harman Curve headphone* is all one needs when 300B tube rolling.
I have 1 Harmon Curve headphone that transforms into 3 different headphones from these tubes.

I wonder if this is it...? Not sure about you guys but my HC headphone is getting transform. 
If I put like a R10 or L3000 or something, its just yeah, its great, but they are already great. But if I put a Harman Curve headphone, its transforming to top tier status stuff. 

This reminds of the HD600 long time ago on a tube amp, I argue, hey this sounds just like a HE90... 

Alright done with my rant 
-----------------------------------------------

EML300B is a creamy neutral sound.
SNS300B is a Dark, bassy, rich body sound. <- might be muddy at first but its complex. Detail is there.  
*Cossor300B* is a neutral sound that is slightly leaning bright. Somewhat fast, a bit more bass. 

Not sure which one is a winner for me. So far, all three are not the same at all.


----------



## ColSaulTigh (Jul 30, 2022)

nwavesailor said:


> Nice blue but…… how do they sound???
> 
> I can’t believe the Elrogs instant on heaters and they glow so brightly.


The Elrogs use a different filament than most other 300B tubes (thoriated tungsten vs. metal oxide).  Those filamemts are what gives it the brightness.


----------



## protoss

*The eyes of Sauron!*


----------



## Toonartist

@paradoxper or anyone else... Quick question on the Elrog / Audio Note 4300e. Did either one of them favour Classical more than the other. Same with Jazz / Acoustic genres?

With the strong bass I'd imagine Elrog would be great with EDM!


----------



## paradoxper

4300E has better delineation and texture with bass response and the Elrog is a master of spatial depth and height (more apparent with speakers).
If you liked your presentation leaning lighter, the 4300E, if sweeter and ultimately with more minutiae especially macro, Elrog is a different digging beast.

You'll find out compared to ABC Psvane, WE, a gradiant warmth of mush to lush, with difficult proficiency in treble extension. This, for example, is where the EML solid plates suck, they lack a vibrancy or coherent factor blend mid > treble integration. The mesh have this immediacy but lack a slam.

Elrogs rule by a margin. The rest are simply different grades of suck.


----------



## Toonartist (Jul 31, 2022)

paradoxper said:


> 4300E has better delineation and texture with bass response and the Elrog is a master of spatial depth and height (more apparent with speakers).
> If you liked your presentation leaning lighter, the 4300E, if sweeter and ultimately with more minutiae especially macro, Elrog is a different digging beast.
> 
> You'll find out compared to ABC Psvane, WE, a gradiant warmth of mush to lush, with difficult proficiency in treble extension. This, for example, is where the EML solid plates suck, they lack a vibrancy or coherent factor blend mid > treble integration. The mesh have this immediacy but lack a slam.
> ...



Excellent. Thanks for this.

I think ultimately, I will end up with both the AN-4300e and the Elrog 300b and then I may keep both in my collection going on or, favour one over the other and not replace my least favoured one. 

Which will be first may come down to any deals that may or may not be kicking around when I make the move. The Envy will come with the Electro Harmonix Gold 300B power tubes so I will let them burn in and get to know them and then I will have a better idea what the base sound is like before making a final decision.

Being new to tubes makes it difficult to know what level the Elrogs etc are at as well as differences between them and the only way I will know is by starting out at that lower point. Thanks again!


----------



## paradoxper

Toonartist said:


> Excellent. Thanks for this.
> 
> I think ultimately, I will end up with both the AN-4300e and the Elrog 300b and then I may keep both in my collection going on or, favour one over the other and not replace my least favoured one.
> 
> ...


I thnk it's a great idea to establish a baseline with the EH 300B. I also think it's near imperative to reference the WE 300B but understand that's a costly hassle.


----------



## Toonartist

paradoxper said:


> I thnk it's a great idea to establish a baseline with the EH 300B. I also think it's near imperative to reference the WE 300B but understand that's a costly hassle.


For me, the Envy is likely an end game amp and I'm very happy with the Naim Atom HE as a streamer and SS option. Given this, I'll most likely spend any audio tokens on a small collection of tubes. It just so happens that they'll likely be the most expensive ones. I'll be keeping an eye open for lightly used ones from trusted dealers I think.


----------



## paradoxper

Toonartist said:


> For me, the Envy is likely an end game amp and I'm very happy with the Naim Atom HE as a streamer and SS option. Given this, I'll most likely spend any audio tokens on a small collection of tubes. It just so happens that they'll likely be the most expensive ones. I'll be keeping an eye open for lightly used ones from trusted dealers I think.


As I listed my 4300E, there is a nice pair of Western Electric 300B on USAM.

Have a blast.


----------



## protoss (Jul 31, 2022)

Yeah I agree. The EML300B is almost a straight line of neutrality. I call it creamy as it stays in the middle with smoothness without doing anything speical. It's not bad. I like it. 👍

The Psvane and all those ABC 😆 are definitely going for that warm, lush sound. A sense of character. Boosted bass, and midrange bump.

Overall, it is very important to establish a baseline. I think I pretty much understand my baseline. So yeah, I like all of my pairs so far. I'm a happy camper.


----------



## protoss

The real question is;

How do you guys remove these tubes professionally? 

Pull straight up,  a constant pull up?
Pull up and jiggle?
Jiggle and up?
Move left and right and back and up?

Getting paranoid popping these tubes off.


----------



## ColSaulTigh (Jul 31, 2022)

protoss said:


> The real question is;
> 
> How do you guys remove these tubes professionally?
> 
> ...


Grab firmly by the BASE of the tube and gently wiggle up.  I don't pull from the glass, it tends to weaken the glue that holds the tube to the base. YMMV.


----------



## protoss

@ColSaulTigh 

What is a good timeframe to remove a 300B-tube after use? 
After 5min, 1hr or 1 day.


----------



## JTbbb

protoss said:


> @ColSaulTigh
> 
> What is a good timeframe to remove a 300B-tube after use?
> After 5min, 1hr or 1 day.


I think this can apply to any tubes really. I generally wait 10-15 minutes. Obviously so amp and tubes can cool, but also allow capacitors to discharge. I have no technical expertise in the field, but I’ve never had any problems.


----------



## protoss

JTbbb said:


> I think this can apply to any tubes really. I generally wait 10-15 minutes. Obviously so amp and tubes can cool, but also allow capacitors to discharge. I have no technical expertise in the field, but I’ve never had any problems.


Yeah, I was thinking the same. Off amp, let it cool down and wait until it discharge. I think the main question was how long does it take to truly discharge? 
As of now I off amp, go to sleep and next morning I am swapping out tubes for the day.


----------



## JTbbb

protoss said:


> Yeah, I was thinking the same. Off amp, let it cool down and wait until it discharge. I think the main question was how long does it take to truly discharge?
> As of now I off amp, go to sleep and next morning I am swapping out tubes for the day.


In a thread several months back a fella was asking for advice as his tubes would light up briefly when removing them. It turned out he was removing tubes within minutes. He had no problems after leaving them 10-15 minutes.


----------



## protoss

JTbbb said:


> In a thread several months back a fella was asking for advice as his tubes would light up briefly when removing them. It turned out he was removing tubes within minutes. He had no problems after leaving them 10-15 minutes.



Problem is I actually blewd out my fuse! It was right after I installed a new pair.




Got mad, I Amazon prime that schiit so fast, a box of 20 came in for $10


----------



## CopperFox

I assume all of the 300B amps on the list have output transformers or output capacitors (one of them might have both). Of those with transformers, can any of them take a 5,8V balanced input signal (and run properly with it)?


----------



## paradoxper

Circuits should be fine running your May unless specified in limitation and also considered in the topology as many tube amps aren't balanced.


----------



## CopperFox

paradoxper said:


> Circuits should be fine running your May unless specified in limitation and also considered in the topology as many tube amps aren't balanced.



Well, the output level can be dropped but I would prefer being able not to do that. 300B amps typically have single-ended topology but those with XLR inputs do balanced to single ended conversion one way or another. My impression of transformer-output tube amps is that most of ones with XLR inputs may be designed to run close to the 4V spec and the transformers would be the most limiting components for the input voltage range.


----------



## paradoxper

CopperFox said:


> Well, the output level can be dropped but I would prefer being able not to do that. 300B amps typically have single-ended topology but those with XLR inputs do balanced to single ended conversion one way or another. My impression of transformer-output tube amps is that most of ones with XLR inputs may be designed to run close to the 4V spec and the transformers would be the most limiting components for the input voltage range.


4V to 6V is a common range but you are limited to the quality of the input transformer.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

protoss said:


> @ColSaulTigh
> 
> What is a good timeframe to remove a 300B-tube after use?
> After 5min, 1hr or 1 day.


When the tube is cool to the touch, give it another 5 minutes, then you're ok.


----------



## nwavesailor

ColSaulTigh said:


> When the tube is cool to the touch, give it another 5 minutes, then you're ok.


I admittedly have NO patience and pull tubes in a minute or 2. I don’t endorse this practice, it’s just me getting antsy!!!


----------



## protoss

nwavesailor said:


> I admittedly have NO patience and pull tubes in a minute or 2. I don’t endorse this practice, it’s just me getting antsy!!!


😆 🤣 

Ah schiit, that's some serious ants in your pants. I hope your joking? ...


----------



## incredulousity

https://www.head-fi.org/classifieds/woo-wa234-mkii-monoblock-headphone-speaker-amplifier.30340/

Torq is selling the mother of all 300B (and 2A3 and 45) amplifier excess... I can't justify it, but someone can, I'm sure!


----------



## nwavesailor

protoss said:


> 😆 🤣
> 
> Ah schiit, that's some serious ants in your pants. I hope your joking? ...


No, I really do and have for many years😳 
I do wait a few minutes before rolling in other tubes, however.
The metal base tubes can get a little bit toasty and get your attention when not given time to cool🥵


----------



## jonathan c

nwavesailor said:


> No, I really do and have for many years😳
> I do wait a few minutes before rolling in other tubes, however.
> The metal base tubes can get a little bit toasty and get your attention when not given time to cool🥵


…nothing like wet hands to keep cool…😈⚡️


----------



## nwavesailor

NICE

I’ll add that to my tube rolling routine!!

What could possibly go wrong???!


----------



## paradoxper

nwavesailor said:


> I admittedly have NO patience and pull tubes in a minute or 2. I don’t endorse this practice, it’s just me getting antsy!!!


You roll in Elrogs, you roll in MELZ, do not pass go do not roll.


----------



## protoss (Aug 1, 2022)

incredulousity said:


> https://www.head-fi.org/classifieds/woo-wa234-mkii-monoblock-headphone-speaker-amplifier.30340/
> 
> Torq is selling the mother of all 300B (and 2A3 and 45) amplifier excess... I can't justify it, but someone can, I'm sure!



I would personally not buy that.

If I had 15K to burn I will instantly buy *Western Electric 91E*
This is what I would call the mother of all 300B.
The true mother.


----------



## WillieB (Aug 1, 2022)

protoss said:


> I would personally not buy that.
> 
> If I had 15K to burn I will instantly buy *Western Electric 91E*
> This is what I would call the mother of all 300B.
> The true mother.


...and put Elrogs in it.

I was on the list for that amp and backed out. It's in general production now. They have them in stock so no wait. They undersold. Big time!


----------



## protoss

WillieB said:


> ...and put Elrogs in it.
> 
> I was on the list for that amp and backed out. It's in general production now. They have them in stock so no wait. They undersold. Big time!


You were going to buy the 91E?!

I was lurking the 91E when it was going for $13,000 or so. There was a special early bird promotion.


----------



## protoss (Aug 1, 2022)

*WESTERN ELECTRIC 91C Metropolis*
300B Monoblock Power Amplifier.

"The Metropolis takes the breakthrough technology in the *91E* and elevates it with stunning and eccentric industrial design."


Welcome to the Metropolis


----------



## protoss

I wonder if Western Electric got their "design philosophy" from the legendary movie Metropolis.

Metropolis (1927 film)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolis_(1927_film)


----------



## Toonartist

Or from a coffee machine. It looks interesting but it does resemble something I’d see if I went to Starbucks!


----------



## dadracer2

protoss said:


> I would personally not buy that.
> 
> If I had 15K to burn I will instantly buy *Western Electric 91E*
> This is what I would call the mother of all 300B.
> The true mother.


If I had the money I would go with the Woo as it is balanced and I think it is better value than the WE which feels like it is overpriced. Oh and the Woo has valve rectifiers too. That's just a personal thing though.


----------



## protoss (Aug 2, 2022)

Toonartist said:


> Or from a coffee machine. It looks interesting but it does resemble something I’d see if I went to Starbucks!



"Hi, I like to order the 300B special, one cream and two sugars please." 

This will give it that warm, sweet, musical sound.


----------



## WillieB

protoss said:


> You were going to buy the 91E?!
> 
> I was lurking the 91E when it was going for $13,000 or so. There was a special early bird promotion.


Yes. When they contacted me for my turn(and the deposit) I backed out. There were too many things bidding for that money at the time. I'm not really sure if I regret it. I have been kicking the idea of a 300b around for almost a year now. Clearly I'm not going to forget about it.



protoss said:


> I wonder if Western Electric got their "design philosophy" from the legendary movie Metropolis.
> 
> Metropolis (1927 film)
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolis_(1927_film)


They definitely have this art deco theme to their designs. I don't hate it as that era was the beginning of the golden age for tubes. 


dadracer2 said:


> If I had the money I would go with the Woo as it is balanced and I think it is better value than the WE which feels like it is overpriced. Oh and the Woo has valve rectifiers too. That's just a personal thing though.


The Woo is pretty awesome. I will say that there is a lot of tech packed into the 91E too, though. Like I said earlier, It really under-sold. I knew a couple other people that were in line for one as well and they both backed out just as I did. No doubt it's a great amp, but I feel the need to audition one before hand.

On another note, I am on the waiting list with Mischa at 1101. I was originally planning on the BH+ OTL, but in recent conversations with him and others, I am leaning towards his new offering. It's supposed to be a SET amp that can take a wide variety of tubes, including 300b, in an OTC topology. No tube rectification with his amps, though. That's the one thing that I think I would miss. I just like having the options.


----------



## protoss (Aug 2, 2022)

WillieB said:


> Mischa at 1101


So, the new amp will look like this but 300B or was it the BH+ OTL new offering?


----------



## WillieB

protoss said:


> So, the new amp will look like this but 300B or was it the BH+ OTL new offering?


Maybe similar, but not sure. From what Mischa said, the output tubes will also have a selector switch so that 300b, 45, 2A3, and also multiple pentode/tetrodes could be used as well. I suppose there will be multiple sets of output tube sockets. I think it's still in concept at this point or at least I haven't seen pictures of one. I spoke to him a couple months ago and he thought it would be ready for production about the time my turn came up, which is about 6-7 more months at this point if I recall.


----------



## protoss

WillieB said:


> Maybe similar, but not sure. From what Mischa said, the output tubes will also have a selector switch so that 300b, 45, 2A3, and also multiple pentode/tetrodes could be used as well. I suppose there will be multiple sets of output tube sockets. I think it's still in concept at this point or at least I haven't seen pictures of one. I spoke to him a couple months ago and he thought it would be ready for production about the time my turn came up, which is about 6-7 more months at this point if I recall.


Its a beautiful amp no doubt. 

DNA Audio can also do a interesting custom 300B build. Need to contact him. The wait list is over a year 
http://www.dnaudio.com/DNA-Stellaris-2A3-headphone-amplifier.html
DNA Stellaris 300B $8000+ (Custom build)


----------



## Sampajanna

Not sure if talked about here, but the Cayin HA300 is wonderful. Pairs very well with the Utopias. I hav the mk1 version…


----------



## protoss (Aug 2, 2022)

Sampajanna said:


> Not sure if talked about here, but the Cayin HA300 is wonderful. Pairs very well with the Utopias. I hav the mk1 version…


It sure was. The HA300 was in my top three pick. Well the HA300MK2 was.

Beautiful sexy amp. What tubes are you using?


----------



## llamaluv

Sampajanna said:


> Not sure if talked about here, but the Cayin HA300 is wonderful. Pairs very well with the Utopias. I hav the mk1 version…



Yes very good idea to raise this amp in this thread, lol. I've had my HA300 "mk1" for almost three years, and have listened to a zillion different headphones on it for meaningful periods of time. Also, not really a zillion, more like, maybe 12-15. And it has liked almost every single one.


----------



## Sampajanna

I use the acme Psvanne 300B and TS-VT99 with woo adapters for drivers. Nice combo.


----------



## llamaluv

Nice I've put at least 2000 hours on my PSVane ACMEs. During that time, the EMLs have come and gone, as have the Takatsukis, but the ACMEs have yet to be voted off the island. The ACME sounds very 300b-like, and goes great with fast and neutral headphones like the Utopia or the Abyss TC.

Next contestant is the KR 300B HP (burning them in now). Early impressions are that they bring something different and interesting enough to at the very least co-exist alongside the ACMEs.


----------



## ardbeg1975

Eddie Current Studio B arrived today. Got it plugged in and setup with Sophia Electric 300B Classics. ABC’d between the EC, a Schiit Folkvangr, and an LTA MZ3 (did I mention I have a tube amp addiction). I really like the FV but the EC crushes it. Harder to call the cage match between the MZ3 and the EC. MZ3 really walks that tightrope between tube 3D sense of space and SS clarity and crispness but the EC is full on tube awesome w/o getting too syrupy. Definitely keeping the LTA and the EC. The FV may or may not stay (desk real estate is tight).  I’m frightened for my wallet as I’m sure I’ll soon hear the siren song of Elrog or WE 300B tubes.


----------



## nwavesailor (Aug 2, 2022)

Sampajanna said:


> I use the acme Psvanne 300B and TS-VT99 with woo adapters for drivers. Nice combo.


NICE!
 I will try the TS (RP) and National Union (RP) 6F8 / VT-99 in the Envy with Elrog 300B.


----------



## WillieB

Sampajanna said:


> Not sure if talked about here, but the Cayin HA300 is wonderful. Pairs very well with the Utopias. I hav the mk1 version…


I have also considered the Cayin. Especially considering I could get a decent discount from ZMF, having bought a few headphones in the past year.


----------



## protoss

ardbeg1975 said:


> Eddie Current Studio B arrived today. Got it plugged in and setup with Sophia Electric 300B Classics. ABC’d between the EC, a Schiit Folkvangr, and an LTA MZ3 (did I mention I have a tube amp addiction). I really like the FV but the EC crushes it. Harder to call the cage match between the MZ3 and the EC. MZ3 really walks that tightrope between tube 3D sense of space and SS clarity and crispness but the EC is full on tube awesome w/o getting too syrupy. Definitely keeping the LTA and the EC. The FV may or may not stay (desk real estate is tight).  I’m frightened for my wallet as I’m sure I’ll soon hear the siren song of Elrog or WE 300B tubes.



Congratulations 🎊 

My EC B salute you!


----------



## EagleWings (Aug 3, 2022)

CopperFox said:


> I assume all of the 300B amps on the list have output transformers or output capacitors (one of them might have both). Of those with transformers, can any of them take a 5,8V balanced input signal (and run properly with it)?


99% of the 300B amps are output transformer coupled amps. 5.8V is the line level signal you feed the amp. Every amp has a certain level of gain. Depending on the amp and the transducer you are trying to drive, 5.8V can either be too much or ideal. Potentiometers /attenuators are placed in front of the amplification stages, to attenuate the input level signal, so that you have the ideal gain for your amp+transducer combo.

Say, you have a, 2-stage, low gain, 300B amp that can do 8W into an 8ohm speaker, and your DAC has a typical 2V output and you plan on driving speakers and headphones. In such a case, the 2V of the DAC might be more than sufficient for the amp to drive the headphone to very loud levels. But the 2V may not be sufficient to drive your speakers to loud levels. In such situations, you can add an active preamp that will bump the 2V line level signal up to a higher level, so that the amp has enough gain to drive your speakers loud enough. Alternatively, you can put in a DAC with 6V output and it just might be enough to drive the speakers, without needing to add an active preamp. But on the flip side, the 6V input might result in too much gain for the headphones, because the potentiometer can only attenuate only so much.

For example, if you take the Elekit 8900 amp, it is a 3 stage amp with lots of gain. So feeding it even 2V input signal results in way too much gain, when driving headphones from the speaker taps. Meaning, the headphones get way too loud even before hitting 9 o’ clock position on the volume pot. But when driving my Lii speakers (96dB, 8ohm), 2V signal works quite fine, giving me more than enough headroom to adjust the volume. But if I were to feed a 6V signal, I might start losing the headroom to adjust volume even for my speakers.

As for the balanced signal, most single ended triode tube amps use an input transformer to convert the balance input signal to single ended signal.


----------



## mfgillia

WillieB said:


> I have also considered the Cayin. Especially considering I could get a decent discount from ZMF, having bought a few headphones in the past year.


That's what I ended up doing after talking with Zach for a bit about how it pairs with the Atriums and VCs.


----------



## Wes S (Aug 3, 2022)

mfgillia said:


> That's what I ended up doing after talking with Zach for a bit about how it pairs with the Atriums and VCs.


Nice!  I am about to pull the trigger on an HA300mk2, hopefully tomorrow.  From all my research, I don't think you can get a better 300B amp for the price, and if Zach recommends it I know I will love it.  I was also interested in the EC Studio B,  but as an avid tube roller I feel the HA300 will be better suited for me with much more options for rolling driver tubes.


----------



## JTbbb

Wes S said:


> Nice!  I am about to pull the trigger on an HA300mk2, hopefully tomorrow.  From all my research, I don't think you can get a better 300B amp for the price, and if Zach recommends it I know I will love it.  I was also interested in the EC Studio B,  but as an avid tube roller I feel the HA300 will be better suited for me with much more options for rolling driver tubes.


If my current order for the Envy went “Belly Up” for some reason, that’s exactly where I will be going 👍.


----------



## dadracer2

Wes S said:


> Nice!  I am about to pull the trigger on an HA300mk2, hopefully tomorrow.  From all my research, I don't think you can get a better 300B amp for the price, and if Zach recommends it I know I will love it.  I was also interested in the EC Studio B,  but as an avid tube roller I feel the HA300 will be better suited for me with much more options for rolling driver tubes.


I feel certain you will enjoy it and it also gives you a better option for loudspeakers if you want over the ECB.


----------



## protoss (Aug 3, 2022)

If people are wondering.

Eddie Current Studio B 300B
Specifications:
 SET topology
•    Custom output transformers, rare earth magnetic core with tertiary feedback standard of 1.75 dB (as with Studio).
•    Minimal point-to-point wiring.
•    Balanced headphone drive.
•    Two input selector switch, two pairs RCA unbalanced inputs.
•    Speaker kill switch.
•    100K Alps Blue Velvet volume control.
•    One pair Speak-On speaker outputs. 4, and 8 ohm.
•    4-foot detachable umbilical cord.
•    Vacuum tube rectified passive LC power supply.
•   * Will drive 4,8 ohm speakers to 4 watts. Input sensitivity 1.5V for full power.*
•    Power bandwidth -1dB 10Hz-100kHz.
•    Recommended headphone load 8 ohms or higher.
•    Power into 32 ohms 2W.
•    Power into 100 ohms 800mW
•    Power into 300 ohms 400mW.
•    Typical headphone frequency response–balanced or SE: -1dB 10Hz-100kHz.
•    SE line output 11 volts into 10K ohms. -1dB 10Hz-100kHz




- End of run almost over and craig will permanently close up shop!


----------



## ThanatosVI

So I'll be joining the 300B crowd with an Feliks Envy.

Anyone need an Octave V16 so that I can Fund the Envy faster?


----------



## Toonartist

What wood did you go for? You may have plenty of time to save up… approaching 12 weeks now for the oak 😂


----------



## ThanatosVI

Toonartist said:


> What wood did you go for? You may have plenty of time to save up… approaching 12 weeks now for the oak 😂


I am in discussion for something really special  
Will let you know once the decision is final.

The wait time will certainly be longer than for all the "regularly available" types.


----------



## Toonartist

ThanatosVI said:


> I am in discussion for something really special
> Will let you know once the decision is final.
> 
> The wait time will certainly be longer than for all the "regularly available" types.



... sounds intriguing! In that case, you may have a few extra weeks to put the pennies together!


----------



## ThanatosVI

Toonartist said:


> ... sounds intriguing! In that case, you may have a few extra weeks to put the pennies together!


In the worst case I will own the Octave and the Feliks at the same time... how bad can that be!?

In the best case it's an affordable switch to a new flavour


----------



## Toonartist

ThanatosVI said:


> *In the worst case I will own the Octave and the Feliks at the same time... how bad can that be!?*
> 
> In the best case it's an affordable switch to a new flavour


Well... it's a tough job but I'm sure you'll be able to get through it   

I think I'll be going for the Elrog 300b's once it's ran in... provided it arrives!


----------



## ThanatosVI

Toonartist said:


> Well... it's a tough job but I'm sure you'll be able to get through it
> 
> I think I'll be going for the Elrog 300b's once it's ran in... provided it arrives!


 Thanks, the emotional Support means a lot


----------



## CopperFox (Aug 3, 2022)

Is this noname amp included in the list? It seems unusual in that by its description it has both output transfomers and output capacitors and a switch for them.


----------



## jonathan c (Aug 3, 2022)

CopperFox said:


> Is this noname amp included in the list? It seems unusual in that by its description it has both output transofmers and output capacitors and a switch for them.


‘Cattle output’… ‘bile headphone amplifier’…😳?…🤢?…


----------



## CopperFox (Aug 3, 2022)

EagleWings said:


> For example, if you take the Elekit 8900 amp, it is a 3 stage amp with lots of gain. So feeding it even 2V input signal results in way too much gain, when driving headphones from the speaker taps. Meaning, the headphones get way too loud even before hitting 9 o’ clock position on the volume pot. But when driving my Lii speakers (96dB, 8ohm), 2V signal works quite fine, giving me more than enough headroom to adjust the volume. But if I were to feed a 6V signal, I might start losing the headroom to adjust volume even for my speakers.
> 
> As for the balanced signal, most single ended triode tube amps use an input transformer to convert the balance input signal to single ended signal.



Some can use for example opamps to do the input conversion instead of transformers.

But still, what I would be interested here is confirmations from users or manufacturers that a specific transformer-output amp can take a 5.8V balanced input without significant distortion. So far I have none. And information of several models where the manufacturer or someone else has stated that they can't take higher than 4.4V or so.


----------



## CopperFox (Aug 3, 2022)

jonathan c said:


> ‘Cattle output’… ‘bile headphone amplifier’…😳?…🤢?…



"Cattle" or "cow" is a chinese term for "transformer". Similarly "bile" (or "bile duct") means tube.

For further confusion, the chinese call transistors "crystal tubes".


----------



## protoss

CopperFox said:


> Is this noname amp included in the list?


No, it be nice if it had a dedicated website like the rest of the amps on the list, also a name will be nice lol.

If people are on a budget, the best affordable amplifier that has been found is the* White Bird - Virtus 300B*
I gave it a shiny star award. 
https://www.wbamp.com/product/virtus-300b-otl-single-ended-headphone-amplifier/


----------



## paradoxper

ThanatosVI said:


> So I'll be joining the 300B crowd with an Feliks Envy.
> 
> Anyone need an Octave V16 so that I can Fund the Envy faster?


Very nice! Don't forget the Elrogs!


----------



## ThanatosVI

paradoxper said:


> Very nice! Don't forget the Elrogs!


Especially since I'm located in germany they are a must.
Which Version do you recommend?


----------



## paradoxper

ThanatosVI said:


> Especially since I'm located in germany they are a must.
> Which Version do you recommend?


With the stable of phones you use, I recommend the molybdenum. ACME or 4300E would also be complimentary along with MELZ 1578, VT Sylvania/Ken-Rad and RCA grey glass. As well, don't bother with current production 6SN7.


----------



## ThanatosVI

paradoxper said:


> With the stable of phones you use, I recommend the molybdenum. ACME or 4300E would also be complimentary along with MELZ 1578, VT Sylvania/Ken-Rad and RCA grey glass. As well, don't bother with current production 6SN7.


Thank you, you answered before I eben asked. Just wanted to know which 6SN7s to get.
Can you  describe how these 3 variants sound compared to each other?


----------



## paradoxper

ThanatosVI said:


> Thank you, you answered before I eben asked. Just wanted to know which 6SN7s to get.
> Can you  describe how these 3 variants sound compared to each other?


The RCA grey glass are the warmest with quite a bit of bloom where the Sylvania and Ken-Rad are more in the middle (tipped up) with more punch and extension.
MELZ is the best 6SN7 I've heard with the tighter punch and smooth top with a more expansive stage.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

paradoxper said:


> The RCA grey glass are the warmest with quite a bit of bloom where the Sylvania and Ken-Rad are more in the middle (tipped up) with more punch and extension.
> MELZ is the best 6SN7 I've heard with the tighter punch and smooth top with a more expansive stage.


I concur with one caveat - the Tung Sol VT99/6F8G are excellent as well, with a bit more "slickness" or "wetness" to the sound.


----------



## llamaluv

CopperFox said:


> I assume all of the 300B amps on the list have output transformers or output capacitors (one of them might have both). Of those with transformers, can any of them take a 5,8V balanced input signal (and run properly with it)?


I use the HA-300 with a 6V DAC without any issues (clipping, extra distortion, etc). Also confirmed to be fine by @Andykong in this post.


----------



## Sampajanna

I also use 6v dac, but i like it better in preamp mode so i can get the amp volume higher. If you are running the Cayin HA300, Utopias are a must-audtioni! Perfect pairing


----------



## nwavesailor (Aug 4, 2022)

ColSaulTigh said:


> I concur with one caveat - the Tung Sol VT99/6F8G are excellent as well, with a bit more "slickness" or "wetness" to the sound.


My socket savers arrived today (anode wire was too tight a fit  in the recessed socket of the Envy)so I can try the TS and NU 6F8G later tonight

EDIT: The TS VY99 / 6F8 do sound very nice @ColSaulTigh. I'll try to NU version in the next day or 2.



paradoxper said:


> The RCA grey glass are the warmest with quite a bit of bloom where the Sylvania and Ken-Rad are more in the middle (tipped up) with more punch and extension.
> MELZ is the best 6SN7 I've heard with the tighter punch and smooth top with a more expansive stage.



The Melz 1578, paired with the Elrogs, are a great combo


----------



## dadracer2

Since it is all but impossible to audition/own each and every 300B valve and it's equally impossible to determine what is "best" can we create a scale of sonic character. It could range from..... Darker, warmer, more romantic at one end through Neutral, balanced in the middle and then Brighter, cooler, more analytical at the other end.

Oh yes I have stolen that scheme from HiFi Plus when they were still doing proper headphone reviews!


----------



## ColSaulTigh

dadracer2 said:


> Since it is all but impossible to audition/own each and every 300B valve and it's equally impossible to determine what is "best" can we create a scale of sonic character. It could range from..... Darker, warmer, more romantic at one end through Neutral, balanced in the middle and then Brighter, cooler, more analytical at the other end.
> 
> Oh yes I have stolen that scheme from HiFi Plus when they were still doing proper headphone reviews!


Impossible, you say?

I beg to differ, sir...


----------



## Wes S

Hey fellas, I am happy to be joining the 300B crowd very soon.  I just pulled the trigger on a Cayin HA300mk2, and I can't wait to hear my first 300B.  I am an avid tube roller and can't wait to have some serious fun with this amp.  To start off, I have never heard any 300B tubes so I am going to stick with the stock ones for a while.  I do have a ton of experience with 6SN7's though and have a decent stash already and will definitely be rolling those from the start, as I know for certain new production 6SN7's can't hold a candle next to the better NOS ones.  This is a great thread, and I look forward to hearing about everyone's 300B experiences, and sharing some of mine own too.  More to come soon. . .


----------



## dadracer2

ColSaulTigh said:


> Impossible, you say?
> 
> I beg to differ, sir...


I did say "all but" which allows for the financially blessed individuals such as yourself.


----------



## Wes S (Aug 4, 2022)

ColSaulTigh said:


> Impossible, you say?
> 
> I beg to differ, sir...


Wow!  That's quite the collection and a very cool way to store them as well.  Looking at your signature, you don't mess around at all, and have some killer gear.  I noticed you are a fellow fuse believer as well, and if you like that SR Purple, you should take a look at the new Audio Magic M1, as that fuse is even better than the purple.  As for those tubes, I would love to know which are some of you favorite 300B's and why if you care to share?

Cheers!


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Wes S said:


> Wow!  That's quite the collection and a very cool way to store them as well.  Looking at your signature, you don't mess around at all, and have some killer gear.  I noticed you are a fellow fuse believer as well, and if you like that SR Purple, *you should take a look at the new Audio Magic M1, as that fuse is even better than the purple.*  As for those tubes, I would love to know which are some of you favorite 300B's and why if you care to share?
> 
> Cheers!


I'll look into ordering one over the weekend, thanks!


----------



## ThanatosVI

ColSaulTigh said:


> I'll look into ordering one over the weekend, thanks!


Please pm me your thoughts afterwards. 
As SR purple User I'm interested on how they compare


----------



## Erwinatm

ColSaulTigh said:


> I'll look into ordering one over the weekend, thanks!


Looking forward for your comparison. 👍


----------



## JTbbb

Received these the other day in prep for Envy. Not keen on recessed sockets.


----------



## nwavesailor (Aug 5, 2022)

I just bought ceramic socket savers from Mrs Xuling. I have many adapters from this seller and their stuff is usually better than most from China.
One was perfect and the other had too much solder on one pin making it way to tight to insert and seat safely. I got a  partial refund and reordered a replacement. I used my soldering iron to remove the excess solder from the pin but its still a bit too tight. I'd prefer the Tube Monger version but they are out of stock.

EDIT: I found and ordered the Tube Monger socket savers!


----------



## JTbbb

nwavesailor said:


> I just bought ceramic socket savers from Mrs Xuling. I have many adapters from this seller and their stuff is usually better than most from China.
> One was perfect and the other had too much solder on one pin making it way to tight to insert and seat safely. I got a  partial refund and reordered a replacement. I used my soldering iron to remove the excess solder from the pin but its still a bit too tight. I'd prefer the Tube Monger version but they are out of stock.


Mine from Deyan.


----------



## ThanatosVI

nwavesailor said:


> One was perfect and the other had *too much solder on one pin making it way to tight to insert and seat safely. I got a partial refund* and reordered a replacement.


That actually sounds unacceptably horrible 

I recommend @Deyan  for future adapters/socket savers. There you receive great quality.


----------



## nwavesailor (Aug 4, 2022)

Yeah, not worth screwing up the octal sockets on the Envy.
 I have done well with the quality of the Tube Monger socket savers and ordered a pair.


----------



## incredulousity

nwavesailor said:


> Yeah, not worth screwing up the octal sockets on the Envy.
> I have done well with the quality of the Tube Monger socket savers and ordered a pair.


Great point. Ordered some too.


----------



## ardbeg1975

protoss said:


> Congratulations 🎊
> 
> My EC B salute you!


And salutations to you as well.


----------



## ardbeg1975

ardbeg1975 said:


> Eddie Current Studio B arrived today. Got it plugged in and setup with Sophia Electric 300B Classics. ABC’d between the EC, a Schiit Folkvangr, and an LTA MZ3 (did I mention I have a tube amp addiction). I really like the FV but the EC crushes it. Harder to call the cage match between the MZ3 and the EC. MZ3 really walks that tightrope between tube 3D sense of space and SS clarity and crispness but the EC is full on tube awesome w/o getting too syrupy. Definitely keeping the LTA and the EC. The FV may or may not stay (desk real estate is tight).  I’m frightened for my wallet as I’m sure I’ll soon hear the siren song of Elrog or WE 300B tubes.


Btw, what are the sonic differences between the Elrog 300Bs and the -Mo variant?


----------



## protoss (Aug 5, 2022)

https://www.closeracoustics.com/pos...-er300b-mo-a-subjective-300b-tubes-comparison

This review says, the Elrog is analytical and the Elrog MO is even more analytical. That's what I got from it?

Anyone wants to dispute it, or they nailed it?


----------



## ColSaulTigh

protoss said:


> https://www.closeracoustics.com/pos...-er300b-mo-a-subjective-300b-tubes-comparison
> 
> This review says, the Elrog is analytical and the Elrog MO is even more analytical. That's what I got from it?
> 
> Anyone want to dispute it, or they nailed it?


I can't speak for the regular Elrogs, but the Mo's are extremely precise, while being plenty impactful.  They're not bloated or sluggish, nor are they sparkly or shrill.  They're pure.  VERY pure.  I get my Elrog 5U4G's today and will have a better idea of their true potential over the weekend once those burn in a bit.


----------



## protoss

*Elrog TM300B*
"Thomas Mayer's (Elrog's new owner) personal tube in capturing the 46 sound on a 300B spec."


----------



## protoss

So there's 3 Elrogs 

ER300B
ER300B - MO
TM300B

Goddammit, this looks like it might become like a f'ing headphone collection now  🤣 
@ColSaulTigh  I can definitely understand your grenade collection now 😆


----------



## ColSaulTigh

protoss said:


> *Elrog TM300B*
> "Thomas Mayer's (Elrog's new owner) personal tube in capturing the 46 sound on a 300B spec."


If these ever turn up on the open market, let me or @paradoxper know - these are "Holy Grail" tubes for us.


----------



## protoss

ColSaulTigh said:


> If these ever turn up on the open market, let me or @paradoxper know - these are "Holy Grail" tubes for us.


Interesting, you just added a third candidate. 
I'll will definitely keep a look out and tell second 😃


----------



## ThanatosVI (Aug 5, 2022)

protoss said:


> *Elrog TM300B*
> "Thomas Mayer's (Elrog's new owner) personal tube in capturing the 46 sound on a 300B spec."


Actually these might be nearly impossible to get. They are exclusive sold to Thomas Mayer for his Thomas Mayer amps. - at least that's what I read.

https://www.vinylsavor.com/en/products/300b/


----------



## ColSaulTigh

ThanatosVI said:


> Actually these might be nearly impossible to get. They are exclusive sold to Thomas Mayer for his Thomas Mayer amps. - at least that's what I read.
> 
> https://www.vinylsavor.com/en/products/300b/


Correct.  I know @paradoxper is trying to work some of his connections...I bet if demand pressure is strong enough, he might be tempted to release a "Head-Fi" edition.

Hmmm.....


----------



## protoss

ColSaulTigh said:


> he might be tempted to release a "Head-Fi" edition.


Fascinating!

Elrog HF300B (headfi Edition) 
Common sense pricing at $1000 

This might be the tube of the century 🤔


----------



## CopperFox (Aug 5, 2022)

protoss said:


> No, it be nice if it had a dedicated website like the rest of the amps on the list, also a name will be nice lol.
> 
> If people are on a budget, the best affordable amplifier that has been found is the* White Bird - Virtus 300B*
> I gave it a shiny star award.
> https://www.wbamp.com/product/virtus-300b-otl-single-ended-headphone-amplifier/



Well, there is a "Lyele Audio 300B" amp on the list and AFAIK Lyele is a name of an Aliexpress shop and not really a brand name.
Is there a review of the WBA amp somewhere?
Here is another amp at AE not yet on the list - Kin Fong Audio 300 EE.

For myself I'd probably be interested something that would not be the most expensive and also provide a good base for various mods. The Elekit kit would fit this quite well, and there are also good transformers for it. However it does not have XLR inputs.


----------



## protoss (Aug 5, 2022)

CopperFox said:


> a review of the WBA amp somewhere?


https://6moons.com/audioreviews/whitebird/1.html

https://highfidelity.pl/@main-878&lang=en

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/white-bird-amplification-virtus-01.628089/



CopperFox said:


> Aliexpress


I noticed a lot of aliexpress 300B amps. Cheap and somewhat uncertain. Maybe I can label a aliexpress amp next to it or something.

*Kin Fong Audio 300 EE added


----------



## ColSaulTigh

What's in the box?!?!?!?


----------



## protoss (Aug 5, 2022)

ColSaulTigh said:


> What's in the box?!?!?!?


Gwyneth Paltrow?

You seriously do move fast on these tubes.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

protoss said:


> Gwyneth Paltrow?


A part of her, anyway...

But actually, my Elrog 5U4G rectifiers finally arrived!















These things are seriously no joke.  They have easily replaced my beloved KR-Audio 5U4G Riccardo Kron Anniversary Editions.  By far.

I said what I said.


----------



## protoss (Aug 5, 2022)

ColSaulTigh said:


> A part of her, anyway...
> 
> But actually, my Elrog 5U4G rectifiers finally arrived!
> 
> ...


WOW, absolutely stunning!

Silver Woo Audio and bright light Elrog is a beautiful combination.
Oh man, you are literally making me just buy the ELROG now!
I was thinking what headphone next and now................... *E.L.R.O.G!!!*


----------



## protoss

I am literally blown away by the lights!! 

I am interested. 
Can the Elrog 5U4G or ER274B work with my Eddie? Adapters?


----------



## ColSaulTigh

protoss said:


> I am literally blown away by the lights!!
> 
> I am interested.
> Can the Elrog 5U4G or ER274B work with my Eddie? Adapters?


I believe the 5U4G will work in place of the 5AR4 but I am not 100% positive.  I think an email to them asking the question would be best.  There are others here with more experience than me with their amps and tolerance for other tubes.


----------



## protoss (Aug 6, 2022)

*Update**
@ColSaulTigh 
Talked with Craig.

"The 5U4G is a 3 amp tube there is only 2 amps available. The 274B is a 2 Amp tube, but may arch at turn on, it also has a high plate resistance and the amp will play with less power."

So, Elrog rectifiers are a no-no with the Eddie. Owell

He also mention that rectifiers make the least difference and just focus on the 300B tubes


----------



## dadracer2

Does anyone know what brand of 6SN7 that Thomas Mayer uses in some of his 300B amps?


----------



## nwavesailor

The Elrog's paired with the NU 6F8G are another good combination in the Envy.
 I need to compare it to the TSRP 6F8G but both sounded really nice.


----------



## WillieB

nwavesailor said:


> Yeah, not worth screwing up the octal sockets on the Envy.
> I have done well with the quality of the Tube Monger socket savers and ordered a pair.


I'm glad you mentioned this. I was looking for a set of savers for one of my amps and never knew any were available from Tube Monger. I have bough quite a few tubes there. Anyway, looks like they are supplied by Pulse directly now and look excellent. I have a set on the way. Thanks!


----------



## WillieB

ColSaulTigh said:


> A part of her, anyway...
> 
> But actually, my Elrog 5U4G rectifiers finally arrived!
> 
> ...


Regardless of the sound, those are spectacular! Good to hear that they live up to their looks.


----------



## UntilThen

protoss said:


> *Ultrasonic Studios *
> 
> This company has 7 tube amplifiers. Trying to catch upto Woo Audio
> 1 300B amp and have custom builds orders.
> Their motto is to use only good parts in their amps.



Thanks for highlighting Ultrasonic Studios. Odyssey is my greenfield project with Tomas to create a SET old school amp using the best parts of Sowter transformers, Mundorf caps and Vishay resistors, Nichicon, etc. The amp can use a variety of power tubes such as KT150, KT88, KT66, EL34, 6550, 6L6GC, EL156, EL12 spez, etc and for drivers the sky's the limit - 6SN7, 6SL7, 12au7, 12at7, 12ax7.

15w in triode mode and 20w in UL. Drives Susvara with ease and supremely. It's also a speaker amp.


----------



## protoss

UntilThen said:


> Thanks for highlighting Ultrasonic Studios. Odyssey is my greenfield project with Tomas to create a SET old school amp using the best parts of Sowter transformers, Mundorf caps and Vishay resistors, Nichicon, etc. The amp can use a variety of power tubes such as KT150, KT88, KT66, EL34, 6550, 6L6GC, EL156, EL12 spez, etc and for drivers the sky's the limit - 6SN7, 6SL7, 12au7, 12at7, 12ax7.
> 
> 15w in triode mode and 20w in UL. Drives Susvara with ease and supremely. It's also a speaker amp.


Beautiful amplifier and picture.


----------



## UntilThen

protoss said:


> Beautiful amplifier and picture.



Thanks. For the shot, I darken the room and held the iPhone 11 Pro Max in my hands as steady as I could. Flash off and let the Apple do it's job. Professional photographers will get better results but I'm just a novice snapper.


----------



## paradoxper

ardbeg1975 said:


> Btw, what are the sonic differences between the Elrog 300Bs and the -Mo variant?


The ER has more midrange sweetness that extends through the treble. Mo is more exacting, more muscular and edged (as much as 300B can attain).



ColSaulTigh said:


> Correct.  I know @paradoxper is trying to work some of his connections...I bet if demand pressure is strong enough, he might be tempted to release a "Head-Fi" edition.
> 
> Hmmm.....


I have a pair coming. I am also running directly into timing issue with the Manley, I need time off work. LOL


----------



## ColSaulTigh

paradoxper said:


> The ER has more midrange sweetness that extends through the treble. Mo is more exacting, more muscular and edged (as much as 300B can attain).
> 
> 
> *I have a pair coming. *I am also running directly into timing issue with the Manley, I need time off work. LOL


How did you manage that sorcerey?


----------



## paradoxper

ColSaulTigh said:


> How did you manage that sorcerey?


A kind friend from the 2 channel world has a lifetime supply so to speak.


----------



## protoss (Aug 7, 2022)

@paradoxper
So you going to have all three 300B Elrogs? That some legendary schiit.

Hopefully, a full detail impression on the TM and comparison against each other.


----------



## paradoxper

protoss said:


> @paradoxper
> So you going to have all three 300B Elrogs? That some legendary schiit.
> 
> Hopefully, a full detail impression on the TM and comparison against each other.


I'm still chasing the ER50 to complete things (which is like a super 45).


----------



## Wes S (Aug 7, 2022)

Looks like there are 4 versions of the Elrog 300B as of today.  The newest being called the TM300B-MO. 

http://vinylsavor.blogspot.com/search/label/ELROG


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Well, crap.  That's TWO versions we mere mortals can't get a hold of...


----------



## incredulousity

Of which two are not available to the general public. 😢 

What is a good Elrog USA vendor ?


----------



## nwavesailor

I bought Elrogs from Parts Connexion in Canada. Great pricing and service!


----------



## paradoxper

ColSaulTigh said:


> Well, crap.  That's TWO versions we mere mortals can't get a hold of...


I'm fatigued. LOL


----------



## Wes S (Aug 7, 2022)

nwavesailor said:


> I bought Elrogs from Parts Connexion in Canada. Great pricing and service!


I just placed an order for a pair of the ER 300B from Parts Connexion and am happy to be joining the Erlog club real soon.  I really love the fact these tubes are still being made, and are said to be one of the best sounding 300B's ever made.  Talk about a great time to get into 300B tubes!


----------



## ColSaulTigh

nwavesailor said:


> I bought Elrogs from Parts Connexion in Canada. Great pricing and service!


Yep, same here.  Plus, no sales tax.


----------



## protoss

Wes S said:


> Looks like there are 4 versions of the Elrog 300B as of today.  The newest being called the TM300B-MO.
> 
> http://vinylsavor.blogspot.com/search/label/ELROG


Picture is blurry or eyes suck.

TM300B-MO has a gold plate?


----------



## protoss (Aug 7, 2022)

I notice Thomas (Elrog owner) is very active on this site https://vinylsavor.blogspot.com/2022/08/deutsche-elektronenrohren-manufaktur.html?m=1

Maybe we can persuade him to make all 300B additions available for us all.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

protoss said:


> I notice Thomas (Elrog owner) is very active on this site https://vinylsavor.blogspot.com/2022/08/deutsche-elektronenrohren-manufaktur.html?m=1
> 
> Maybe we can persuade him to make all 300B additions available for us all.


Never hurts to ask - go for it!


----------



## protoss

So yeah, I asked!!

LOL 😆

I wrote a message and he literally reply! Check it out. The 3rd one. The results are not good thou.

https://vinylsavor.blogspot.com/2022/08/deutsche-elektronenrohren-manufaktur.html?m=1


----------



## nwavesailor

Nice try, Protoss

Thomas has valid reasons for his decision and it was good to get a reply from the man himself on the 6th anniversary of TM production!


----------



## protoss (Aug 7, 2022)

nwavesailor said:


> Nice try, Protoss
> 
> Thomas has valid reasons for his decision and it was good to get a reply from the man himself on the 6th anniversary of TM production!


I wrote two more messages, and linked this page (he needs to approve first to publish).

One of them is asking for a *universal* TM300B version. A simplistic version for us to enjoy his brilliance.


----------



## ardbeg1975

ColSaulTigh said:


> Yep, same here.  Plus, no sales tax.


I gave in. On order as well.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

protoss said:


> *Update**
> @ColSaulTigh
> Talked with Craig.
> 
> ...


I think this point varies from amp to amp.  On all of my Woo's they make a DRAMATIC difference.  YMMV.


----------



## protoss

CopperFox said:


> myself I'd probably be interested something that would not be the most expensive and also provide a good base for various mods. The Elekit kit would fit this quite well, and there are also good transformers for it. However it does not have XLR inputs.


Yeah, it's unfortunate that all the baseline good amps are around $4000 - $8000. Any higher is overkill and lower price models reduce options considerably, in my opinion. 

Elekit kit and the White Bird seem like the best alternative for people on a budget. The problem with the  Elekit kit is that you need to be patient and good at instruction, so I will give the medal to White Bird.

My Eddie was just over $4000 including shipping/taxes and box, plus tubes over 5K+; eventually, Elrog will enter the space, and the whole system will be above 6k+; the price increase will never end


----------



## Gazza

Whelp, just placed an order for a matched pair of current production Western Electric 300Bs. Biggest valve upgrade I've embarked upon for my Manley 300B pre. Should get them in a couple of weeks. Can't wait to hear the improvement over my 10-year-old Sophia Electric Princess.


----------



## Nicolas Yance

Gazza said:


> Whelp, just placed an order for a matched pair of current production Western Electric 300Bs. Biggest valve upgrade I've embarked upon for my Manley 300B pre. Should get them in a couple of weeks. Can't wait to hear the improvement over my 10-year-old Sophia Electric Princess.


How do you like the Manley 300b? I had it on my list before I got the WA5 but it was out of my budget.


----------



## Gazza

Nicolas Yance said:


> How do you like the Manley 300b? I had it on my list before I got the WA5 but it was out of my budget.



Love, love, LOVE it! Not your typical gooey, overly-warm valve amp. Very punchy and accurate with the most 3-D, holographic sound-stage you can imagine. It only gets better as I've upgraded other components in my system.


----------



## bfin3

Has anyone tried the Takatsuki ta-300B? The price is steep but the impressions are very positive


----------



## lumdicks

bfin3 said:


> Has anyone tried the Takatsuki ta-300B? The price is steep but the impressions are very positive


I have a pair of this and it sounds amazingly good with sweet mid and the most airy high. Bass is relatively lighter than WE and Elrog but nothing falling short indeed. I love Takatsuki and Elrog equally in my system.


----------



## protoss

bfin3 said:


> Has anyone tried the Takatsuki ta-300B? The price is steep but the impressions are very positive


They are always on a discount. 
*$1700* is the max you should pay for them.
https://www.partsconnexion.com/TSUKI-81942.html


----------



## mfgillia

lumdicks said:


> I have a pair of this and it sounds amazingly good with sweet mid and the most airy high. Bass is relatively lighter than WE and Elrog but nothing falling short indeed. I love Takatsuki and Elrog equally in my system.


Apologize if you mentioned this before and I missed it but what's your general impression of the WE 300B versus Elrog ER-300B? Recently I've been focusing on these two as a potential upgrade for my Cayin HA300 MK2.


----------



## ThanatosVI

mfgillia said:


> Apologize if you mentioned this before and I missed it but what's your general impression of the WE 300B versus Elrog ER-300B? Recently I've been focusing on these two as a potential upgrade for my Cayin HA300 MK2.


WE = classic warmish tubey sweet 300B sound
ELROG = maximum detail and extension with a touch of tube magic


----------



## lumdicks

mfgillia said:


> Apologize if you mentioned this before and I missed it but what's your general impression of the WE 300B versus Elrog ER-300B? Recently I've been focusing on these two as a potential upgrade for my Cayin HA300 MK2.


I have shared some impression here:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/hea...l-300b-tube-amps.962932/page-51#post-17054726


----------



## justanut

Ok I've decided. Shall start saving for a pair of Elrog but won't go for -MO... too rich for me.


----------



## JTbbb

lumdicks said:


> You are right that all these three sound amazingly but quite differently. I am still burning in the Elrog but my initial feeling is:
> 
> 1. WE current production: sweet mid but a bit slow. Bass is sufficient but the texture is not the best in class. Imaging is good and rather forgiving for poor recording.
> 
> ...


I succumbed 😀. Found a used pair of Elrog’s in Poland.


----------



## normie610

Gazza said:


> Whelp, just placed an order for a matched pair of current production Western Electric 300Bs. Biggest valve upgrade I've embarked upon for my Manley 300B pre. Should get them in a couple of weeks. Can't wait to hear the improvement over my 10-year-old Sophia Electric Princess.


You won't regret it. I'd recommend you also get Linlai E-6SL7 input tube and NOS Mullard GZ34 for rectifiers. Amazing synergy. The Manley 300B is the best component in my system 👍🏼


----------



## paradoxper

JTbbb said:


> I succumbed 😀. Found a used pair of Elrog’s in Poland.


I'm so proud. I think you're only short the 4300E now.


----------



## JTbbb

paradoxper said:


> I'm so proud. I think you're only short the 4300E now.


Nooooo!

You got a pair for sale 😀


----------



## paradoxper

JTbbb said:


> Nooooo!
> 
> You got a pair for sale 😀


Haha. I sold them to a great dude here.


----------



## incredulousity

paradoxper said:


> Haha. I sold them to a great dude here.


Thanks!

And I look forward to trying them, when my Envy eventually arrives, after I burn in the amp with stock (performance model) tubes.


----------



## Toonartist

incredulousity said:


> Thanks!
> 
> And I look forward to trying them, when my Envy eventually arrives, after I burn in the amp with stock (performance model) tubes.


Look forward to hearing how you find them with the Envy... I seen them up for sale but I'm in the UK so was out of range! Have you ordered the Elrog 300b's as well?


----------



## JTbbb

Toonartist said:


> Look forward to hearing how you find them with the Envy... I seen them up for sale but I'm in the UK so was out of range! Have you ordered the Elrog 300b's as well?


These people sell them here in the uk.


----------



## Toonartist

I think I may go Elrog first. It was @paradoxper who was selling his pair of AN-4300e at a very competitive price but delivery was US only.


----------



## incredulousity (Aug 9, 2022)

Toonartist said:


> Look forward to hearing how you find them with the Envy... I seen them up for sale but I'm in the UK so was out of range! Have you ordered the Elrog 300b's as well?


I will at some point. Knowing what I like, I am still on the Elrog 300B vs 300B-Mo fence. Tak sounds appealing, but I expect that Elrog will better scratch the itch. I may wait until someone actually compares the two (available) Elrog versions on Envy. Some of the reviewer ravings on the Full Music / Envy combination are very similar to what I read about Elrog on other amps, so I may not need to go there, or the Mo version may be overkill. But whow am I fooling? Of course I will need to go there. But I may prioritize a few moderately priced new 6SN7 options first. The NOS stuff is just not realistically obtainable.

Anyone want to trade a good set of 7236 or 5998 for some Melz?


----------



## protoss

incredulousity said:


> Full Music


Full music and Elrog will be my next tubes. 

Current:
EML300B
Psvane 300B
Shuguang natural treasure 300B

Future:
-Full Music
-Elrog 

5 in total, a nice variety of tubes.


----------



## Gazza

normie610 said:


> You won't regret it. I'd recommend you also get Linlai E-6SL7 input tube and NOS Mullard GZ34 for rectifiers. Amazing synergy. The Manley 300B is the best component in my system 👍🏼



Thanks for the recommendation! Curious you suggest the Linlai and not the RCA 5691 red base which I was thinking of grabbing. (The Linlai's are out of stock ATM it seems).

Also, did you replace your 0D3?


----------



## RobertSM (Aug 9, 2022)

Gazza said:


> Thanks for the recommendation! Curious you suggest the Linlai and not the RCA 5691 red base which I was thinking of grabbing. (The Linlai's are out of stock ATM it seems).
> 
> Also, did you replace your 0D3?



I've done ALOT of tube rolling with the 6SL7. My three favorite in no particular order.

1. Brimar CV1985
2. Mullard ECC35
3. RCA 5691 red base

Let me add that my context on 6SL7 rolling has been in what's widely considered to be the most transparent section in a Hi-Fi system, the tube phono stage.

For me this has been in my Eddie Current Classic tube phono pre-amp.


----------



## protoss

For the Eddie. 
Rectifer: Preferred Series 5AR4
https://www.thetubestore.com/preferred-series-5ar4
Driver: Preferred Series 7025 / 12AX7
https://www.thetubestore.com/preferred-series-7025-12ax7


----------



## RobertSM

protoss said:


> For the Eddie.
> Rectifer: Preferred Series 5AR4
> https://www.thetubestore.com/preferred-series-5ar4
> Driver: Preferred Series 7025 / 12AX7
> https://www.thetubestore.com/preferred-series-7025-12ax7



My ALO Audio Studio Six was designed specifically and runs a 5AR4/GZ34 in the rectifier position. The general consensus is that the metal base GZ34 is king. They are pricey, but worth it.


----------



## protoss (Aug 9, 2022)

RobertSM said:


> The general consensus is that the metal base GZ34 is king


Looks great.
I am assuming the Philips GZ34, Mullard and other branded GZ34 tubes the best right?
https://www.thetubestore.com/mullard-gz34-5ar4-nos

https://www.tubedepot.com/products/5ar4-gz34-amperex-bugle-boy
This looks great. Love the pic on it.




Also, what's so special about the metal plate and especially the black plate versions?


----------



## protoss

Three shots of Laphroaig 10 and Sauron is calling 😆


----------



## protoss

This is one of my favorite combos. 😍 
Top tier status.


----------



## protoss

MRT ELECTRIC - 300B-GC Graphite Copper Tube





MRT Copper Plate Vacuum Tube 300B-GC: This Vacuum Tube uses high purity graphite, in combination with non-oxygen copper plate. The length of anode and grid filament has increased by 20%; the anode dissipation power has reached 95W; it’s 43W higher than normal 300B. The grid filament dissipation power is over 2W; the current of anode has over 30mA compare to normal 300B; output power can easily reach 10W. The product is much more reliable, the enlarged glass shell can improve the ability of the tube’s heat dissipation. The red socket design has showed its distinctive feature compare to other 300B. The enhanced air-out aging process, has vital importance for improving the cleanness of the sound, increasing the product life and stabilization.

The performance of this products: the sound is majestic and strong; a perfect balance between high, medium and low frequency; strong musicality; open sound field. It has remained all the characteristics of normal 300B, and get to the level where normal 300B cannot reach, it is going to be the top 300B product.


----------



## RobertSM

protoss said:


> This is one of my favorite combos. 😍
> Top tier status.



Nice Eddie Current amp! Craig really makes some fantastic gear.


----------



## protoss

Thanks, its spectacular.
That's also one of my favorite pics with one of my secret top tier status headphone.


----------



## nwavesailor

protoss said:


> MRT ELECTRIC - 300B-GC Graphite Copper Tube
> 
> 
> MRT Copper Plate Vacuum Tube 300B-GC: This Vacuum Tube uses high purity graphite, in combination with non-oxygen copper plate. The length of anode and grid filament has increased by 20%; the anode dissipation power has reached 95W; it’s 43W higher than normal 300B. The grid filament dissipation power is over 2W; the current of anode has over 30mA compare to normal 300B; output power can easily reach 10W. The product is much more reliable, the enlarged glass shell can improve the ability of the tube’s heat dissipation. The red socket design has showed its distinctive feature compare to other 300B. The enhanced air-out aging process, has vital importance for improving the cleanness of the sound, increasing the product life and stabilization.
> ...


Have you placed your order????


----------



## protoss

nwavesailor said:


> Have you placed your order????


I might just on the RED socket design... But first "Full music" must be seeked out by me and after Elrog and maybe this afterward.


----------



## dadracer2

protoss said:


> I might just on the RED socket design... But first "Full music" must be seeked out by me and after Elrog and maybe this afterward.


I think TJ Full Music went out of business but I’m sure you can still find them. It’s why Cayin swapped to the Gold Lion 300b for the mk2 HA300 I believe.


----------



## dadracer2

protoss said:


> MRT ELECTRIC - 300B-GC Graphite Copper Tube
> 
> 
> MRT Copper Plate Vacuum Tube 300B-GC: This Vacuum Tube uses high purity graphite, in combination with non-oxygen copper plate. The length of anode and grid filament has increased by 20%; the anode dissipation power has reached 95W; it’s 43W higher than normal 300B. The grid filament dissipation power is over 2W; the current of anode has over 30mA compare to normal 300B; output power can easily reach 10W. The product is much more reliable, the enlarged glass shell can improve the ability of the tube’s heat dissipation. The red socket design has showed its distinctive feature compare to other 300B. The enhanced air-out aging process, has vital importance for improving the cleanness of the sound, increasing the product life and stabilization.
> ...





protoss said:


> MRT ELECTRIC - 300B-GC Graphite Copper Tube
> 
> 
> MRT Copper Plate Vacuum Tube 300B-GC: This Vacuum Tube uses high purity graphite, in combination with non-oxygen copper plate. The length of anode and grid filament has increased by 20%; the anode dissipation power has reached 95W; it’s 43W higher than normal 300B. The grid filament dissipation power is over 2W; the current of anode has over 30mA compare to normal 300B; output power can easily reach 10W. The product is much more reliable, the enlarged glass shell can improve the ability of the tube’s heat dissipation. The red socket design has showed its distinctive feature compare to other 300B. The enhanced air-out aging process, has vital importance for improving the cleanness of the sound, increasing the product life and stabilization.
> ...


Interesting…do you know a price?


----------



## incredulousity

protoss said:


> I might just on the RED socket design... But first "Full music" must be seeked out by me and after Elrog and maybe this afterward.


Wait a bit, and some Full Music cast-offs will be available from Envy buyers perhaps?


----------



## paradoxper (Aug 10, 2022)

dadracer2 said:


> Interesting…do you know a price?


These are curious and implications are to be quite expensive if I understand correctly. Interesting. IF ever released as they date back to 2015.


----------



## lumdicks

dadracer2 said:


> Interesting…do you know a price?


Around USD800.


----------



## dadracer2

lumdicks said:


> Around USD800.


Where did you find them and do they work as they say they do?


----------



## lumdicks (Aug 10, 2022)

dadracer2 said:


> Where did you find them and do they work as they say they do?






It is selling at CNY4,800 on Taobao which is equivalent to USD800. Not much user review or media coverage here in Hong Kong so not sure on the sound quality but may be just another 300B from Chinese maker.


----------



## paradoxper

lumdicks said:


> It is selling at CNY4,800 on Taobao which is equivalent to USD800. Not much user review or media coverage here in Hong Kong so not sure on the sound quality but may be just another 300B from Chinese maker.


Ah, very dubious. They mentioned using Western Electric tubes -- what is repurposed by their engineer team isn't so clear. Their plate construction looks cheap.


----------



## dadracer2

paradoxper said:


> Ah, very dubious. They mentioned using Western Electric tubes -- what is repurposed by their engineer team isn't so clear. Their plate construction looks cheap.


I think you are correct probably best to avoid or at least until someone has actual experience of them.


----------



## normie610

Gazza said:


> Thanks for the recommendation! Curious you suggest the Linlai and not the RCA 5691 red base which I was thinking of grabbing. (The Linlai's are out of stock ATM it seems).
> 
> Also, did you replace your 0D3?


I have the red base 5691, Tung Sol 6SU7GTY, Tung Sol VT229 factory matched, and Shuguang WE6SL7. The red base is excellent but more of a V shape sound. Treble is a bit more sparkly but overall sound is not as full as the Linlai. I think you can find plenty of Linlai E-6SL7 on aliexpress. That’s where I got mine from.

Yes I did replace 0D3 with NOS Sylvania but I don’t think it brings any difference in the sound. Rectifiers, input and power tubes are the ones to be rolled.


----------



## paradoxper

dadracer2 said:


> I think you are correct probably best to avoid or at least until someone has actual experience of them.


I haven't found any anecdotes regarding their sound, either. Perhaps a Japanese cult follows. Shrugs.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

protoss said:


> MRT ELECTRIC - 300B-GC Graphite Copper Tube
> 
> 
> MRT Copper Plate Vacuum Tube 300B-GC: This Vacuum Tube uses high purity graphite, in combination with non-oxygen copper plate. The length of anode and grid filament has increased by 20%; the anode dissipation power has reached 95W; it’s 43W higher than normal 300B. The grid filament dissipation power is over 2W; the current of anode has over 30mA compare to normal 300B; output power can easily reach 10W. The product is much more reliable, the enlarged glass shell can improve the ability of the tube’s heat dissipation. The red socket design has showed its distinctive feature compare to other 300B. The enhanced air-out aging process, has vital importance for improving the cleanness of the sound, increasing the product life and stabilization.
> ...


I can't say that I'm particularly impressed by the build quality judging from these images...


----------



## protoss

@ColSaulTigh 
This is their main technology they are pushing. 

Graphite Copper Plate Vacuum Tube





Most of the common used power amplifier tube is using graphite as its anode. The shape of its basic structure is either circular or oval, as show in Picture (1), No.1 is Graphite,No.2 is Metal Holder & Anode Leading-Off Rods and No.3 is Grid Electrode & Filament.

There are lots of advantages to use graphitic material as anode of a vacuum tube, because it has large ability of heat radiation, heat capacity, and heat stability. Therefore, the vacuum tube using graphitic anode has greater power output compare to simple metal anode. However, the biggest disadvantage of using graphitic anode is its electrical resistivity is too big compare to conductive metal, it’s 600 times larger compare to copper and 100 times larger compare to iron. Even though the graphitic material could reduce electrical resistivity by 20% under high temperature; it’s still higher than conductive metal. We know that audio vacuum tube is an important component in the audio electronic circuit. Ifthe anode has large resistance, it will definitely have adverse effects on audio signal transmission, thus loss the signal intensity and consequently cause distortion of the sound. Therefore, it’s very important to reduce the signal loss by lowering the resistance of the anode.

Our engineers have designed a composite anode structure; it can not only maintain the excellent character of graphite, but also greatly reduce the resistance of the anode. It has grooves on the interior of the graphitic anode, then add oxygen free copper plates or other conductive sheet metals with corresponding size inside the grooves. As shown in the Picture (2), No.1 represents Graphite, and No.4 represents Metal Plates. In this way, heat electron from the negative pole filament will directly enter into conductive sheet metal and not through graphitic material, while graphitic material can continue exerting its merits as strong heat radiation and big heat capacity. In the meanwhile, the heat generated with high voltage and large current from the sheet metal can quickly radiate out through graphite. Therefore, this new composite anode structure will greatly improve conductivity; reduce the loss of signal transmission； and maintain high-power character of a graphitic anode vacuum tube.

We have already applied and got certificateof patent through the State Intellectual Property Office Of the P.R.C. for this new structure (Patent No.: 201520623852.6). Vacuum tubes use this unique structure will have new sound features. Compare to old vacuum tube with pure graphitic anode, the new structure will bring significant improvements with both high and low pitch. Therefore, we can confidently announce that our WE845-GC is going to be the best sound vacuum tube among all types of 845 tubes. In the meanwhile, our WE211-GC is going to be incomparable as well. Our company will also produce graphitic copper plate 300B-GC and metal copper plate WE300B-C and WE274-C. The new tube products are coming out soon. For example WE212-C,WE212-GC, 6SN7-C, 12AX7-C, 12AT7-C, EL34-C, KT88-C, 6DJ8-C, etc.


----------



## protoss (Aug 10, 2022)

incredulousity said:


> some Full Music cast-offs will be available from Envy buyers perhaps?


I found a site that has all NOS Full Music tubes still. Going to buy a nice mesh version soon.
"Mesh dome version"


----------



## protoss (Aug 10, 2022)

*RARE -* Arcturus 45 tube *(BLUE)*
https://www.tubedepot.com/products/45-triode-globe-shape-blue

Edit* lol somebody just bought the last pair! This tube sells fast.





I can not find any *Arcturus 300B tubes*? Looks like they never made any?


----------



## normie610

protoss said:


> @ColSaulTigh
> This is their main technology they are pushing.
> 
> Graphite Copper Plate Vacuum Tube
> ...


Anyone dares to be the guinea pig and order a pair? 😁


----------



## paradoxper

normie610 said:


> Anyone dares to be the guinea pig and order a pair? 😁


You know they suck.


----------



## CopperFox

protoss said:


> Yeah, it's unfortunate that all the baseline good amps are around $4000 - $8000. Any higher is overkill and lower price models reduce options considerably, in my opinion.
> 
> Elekit kit and the White Bird seem like the best alternative for people on a budget. The problem with the  Elekit kit is that you need to be patient and good at instruction, so I will give the medal to White Bird.



Some sellers may offer an assembly service for the Elekit, such as getaudio.eu who charge 190€ extra for the assembly.



protoss said:


> My Eddie was just over $4000 including shipping/taxes and box, plus tubes over 5K+; eventually, Elrog will enter the space, and the whole system will be above 6k+; the price increase will never end



The Eddie Current amps afaik have no representation EU so costs of shipping/taxes would be high.

Have you had the opportunity to compare those Shuguang 300B-T tubes with the Linlai 300B-T? I would most likely go with one of those if I were to get a 300B amp.


----------



## paradoxper

Steve started evaluations of the CryoTone 300B and compared them to whatever Chinese and Takatsuki and WE300B.
Sounds like the tube leans more towards the KR with some substantial flesh at the cost of extension at the extremes. 
I found it interesting the signature is more reserved especially with top extension from the xyz type of CryoTone which were proposed to be quite forward.
Enough meaningful insight to kill remaining interest.

What's really cool is Western Electric has gave the blessing on Decwares 300B circuit and will provide those buyers a nice discount.

Little do they know they need to direct themselves to Elrog.

I would have liked to see some stressing of the CryoTone considering it's a marketed characteristic of their advantageous application.

A nice gleaming.
https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1649817393/400


----------



## Gazza (Aug 11, 2022)

normie610 said:


> I have the red base 5691, Tung Sol 6SU7GTY, Tung Sol VT229 factory matched, and Shuguang WE6SL7. The red base is excellent but more of a V shape sound. Treble is a bit more sparkly but overall sound is not as full as the Linlai. I think you can find plenty of Linlai E-6SL7 on aliexpress. That’s where I got mine from.
> 
> Yes I did replace 0D3 with NOS Sylvania but I don’t think it brings any difference in the sound. Rectifiers, input and power tubes are the ones to be rolled.



Thanks for clarifying. Is this the Linlai you have?

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004130149455.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.470831dcW3pyJf&algo_pvid=693fa3f0-8408-4176-adfa-53d21282bc2e&algo_exp_id=693fa3f0-8408-4176-adfa-53d21282bc2e-0&pdp_ext_f={"sku_id":"12000028134901141"}&pdp_npi=2@dis!AUD!326.71!160.1!!!!!@2101d64d16601782457933901e6e5d!12000028134901141!sea&curPageLogUid=sqWrG4MX5qrl

EDIT: I also found these. I think they're the official dealer:

https://premiumvacuumtubes.com/product/linlai-global-e-6sl7-vacuum-tubes-pair-or-single/


----------



## protoss (Aug 10, 2022)

CopperFox said:


> Have you had the opportunity to compare those Shuguang 300B-T tubes with the Linlai 300B-T? I would most likely go with one of those if I were to get a 300B amp.


No, I am comparing my three tubes against each other. I probably will never head over to Linlai territory because others are calling 😊

Shuguang Nature Sound 300B-T is warm, bassy, and dark sounding. The Shuguang has a richer sound compared to them all.

PsVane Cossor 300B – It is leaning towards a warm neutral sound while being slightly transparent, clean, and forward.

Emission Lab 300B (standard) – Close to being dead neutral and leaning toward being warm neutral. Nothing special. It's like the tube just works with no benefits. I can understand why people will not like this. I would get the Emission Lab 300B MESH version over the standard, but I like this pair. Maybe I am bias. 

My next pair is *Full Music 300B* and right after *Elrog*. Getting a total of 5 tubes, keeping them all.

I might also try to get an obscure 300Bs I found here for fun.
ZAIKA 300B, USR 300B, JMTEC 300B


----------



## ThanatosVI

paradoxper said:


> Steve started evaluations of the CryoTone 300B and compared them to whatever Chinese and Takatsuki and WE300B.
> Sounds like the tube leans more towards the KR with some substantial flesh at the cost of extension at the extremes.
> I found it interesting the signature is more reserved especially with top extension from the xyz type of CryoTone which were proposed to be quite forward.
> Enough meaningful insight to kill remaining interest.
> ...


Thx for sharing, that Cryotone info was interesting


----------



## normie610

Gazza said:


> Thanks for clarifying. Is this the Linlai you have?
> 
> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004130149455.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.470831dcW3pyJf&algo_pvid=693fa3f0-8408-4176-adfa-53d21282bc2e&algo_exp_id=693fa3f0-8408-4176-adfa-53d21282bc2e-0&pdp_ext_f={"sku_id":"12000028134901141"}&pdp_npi=2@dis!AUD!326.71!160.1!!!!!@2101d64d16601782457933901e6e5d!12000028134901141!sea&curPageLogUid=sqWrG4MX5qrl
> 
> ...


Yes that’s correct. The second link is I believe the North America dealer which can also send to other parts of the world. The reason I chose aliexpress is that it’s closer to my country and the seller ships via DHL which only take 2-3 business days. The Linlai Global ships through the regular postal service which will take forever to my country.


----------



## Wes S

Let the fun begin. . .


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Wes S said:


> Let the fun begin. . .


Dim the room lights and enjoy the glow of those Elrogs!


----------



## Wes S (Aug 11, 2022)

ColSaulTigh said:


> Dim the room lights and enjoy the glow of those Elrogs!


Yes sir!  The glow from these gorgeous looking tubes is definitely a site to see.


----------



## protoss

Wes S said:


> Yes sir!  The glow from these gorgeous looking tubes is definitely a site to see.


Holy schiit! Thats gorgeous! 
Love those meter lights, the volumes light and the masterpiece elrog lights.


----------



## Gazza

normie610 said:


> Yes that’s correct. The second link is I believe the North America dealer which can also send to other parts of the world. The reason I chose aliexpress is that it’s closer to my country and the seller ships via DHL which only take 2-3 business days. The Linlai Global ships through the regular postal service which will take forever to my country.



Cheers. Might make these my next upgrade after my WE 300Bs are run-in.


----------



## Wes S (Aug 11, 2022)

protoss said:


> Holy schiit! Thats gorgeous!
> Love those meter lights, the volumes light and the masterpiece elrog lights.


Yes sir.     The Elrogs are already sounding incredible.  The bass is insane, and the detail is stunning and they have only been running for a couple hours now.  I am in awe at how lifelike everything sounds right now.


----------



## paradoxper

Wes S said:


> Yes sir.     The Elrogs are already sounding incredible.  The bass is insane, and the detail is stunning and they have only been running for a couple hours now.  I am in awe at how lifelike everything sounds right now.


It only gets better.


----------



## incredulousity

And those are not even the Mo ones?


----------



## Wes S

incredulousity said:


> And those are not even the Mo ones?


That's correct.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

I have the Mo's.  @paradoxper has both.  He prefers the standards.  I really like my Mos and can't imagine changing them out.


----------



## protoss

That's good to hear that the MO's are not superior to the standards but just a flavor difference. Save a $1000 and buy another tube 😃


----------



## incredulousity

Unfortunately, I might also interpret this as “they are equally good, better than everything else, with different enough flavors that one might very well want both.”


----------



## protoss

Maybe the debate should be,  "should people buy two tubes from the same brand?"


----------



## ThanatosVI

protoss said:


> Maybe the debate should be,  "should people buy two tubes from the same brand?"


Of course. Elrog and EML offer a lot of variety


----------



## ColSaulTigh

protoss said:


> Maybe the debate should be,  "should people buy two tubes from the same brand?"


Why not?

I have no point of reference within the Elrog line, however, if a used pair of the "standard" ER300B's pop up in the classifieds or other used market, I'll probably pick them up if for no other reason than to have that point of reference.

The more important question is - What are you looking for in your sound signature?  If your current tubes aren't creating it, perhaps you need to try other tubes to try and achieve what you're looking for.  I mean, there's even some variation within the same line.  Human senses (hearing, sight, etc.) are VERY complex methods of detecting similarities and differences.  You should experiment until you find what you're looking for (or run out of money). YMMV.


----------



## paradoxper

ColSaulTigh said:


> I have the Mo's.  @paradoxper has both.  He prefers the standards.  I really like my Mos and can't imagine changing them out.


I prefer the standard with the 1266 TC and the Mo with Valkyria for system matching.


----------



## ardbeg1975 (Aug 12, 2022)

My Elrog ER300Bs arrived today. Did some  initial A/Bing between them and the Sophia Electric Classics on the EC Studio B. The Elrogs definitely have more body — fuller sound overall not just in bass — and were a bit more intimate in sound stage on the same comparison tracks but perhaps they need to burn in a bit more and will open up. Also more fatiguing over several hours of listening compared to the Sophia. Both are very clean but the Elrog definitely is less laid back and more engaging for rock tracks. And nothing beats that thoriated tungsten glow (and invisible alpha particles likely flying in all directions).


----------



## DJJEZ (Aug 13, 2022)

Got a pair of Elrog 300B's incoming. Honestly not a fan of my western electric 300b's so hope these are the ones 

Was definetley influenced by @paradoxper


----------



## Ciggavelli

DJJEZ said:


> Got a pair of Elrog 300B's incoming. Honestly not a fan of my western electric 300b's so hope these are the ones
> 
> Was definetley influenced by @paradoxper


I was just about to pick some Elrog 300Bs for my 3ES today too.  The thread has definitely got me curious about them


----------



## DJJEZ

Ciggavelli said:


> I was just about to pick some Elrog 300Bs for my 3ES today too.  The thread has definitely got me curious about them


Please do. Would love to hear how they compare against takatsuki 300B's


----------



## nwavesailor

DJJEZ said:


> Got a pair of Elrog 300B's incoming. Honestly not a fan of my western electric 300b's so hope these are the ones
> 
> Was definetley influenced by @paradoxper


First off, I’m a 300B rookie, but thrilled with the Elrogs in the Envy. I always thought that the WE would be my ‘real’ 300B pair with a 5 year warranty and being US made. After reading about how underwhelming they sounded by those having both I switched over to Elrogs. 

They are nothing short of stunning snd I’m loving the sound AND the brilliant glow!!!


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Everyone with Elrogs needs to remember, these are completely different tubes from the classic 300B architecture.  The reason they sound so different (superior?) is because they are essentially different tubes, that just so happen to have the same electrical characteristics. Much like a Honda Civic and a Ferrari California are both cars but are engineered and perform on different levels.


----------



## nwavesailor (Aug 14, 2022)

ColSaulTigh said:


> Everyone with Elrogs needs to remember, these are completely different tubes from the classic 300B architecture.  The reason they sound so different (superior?) is because they are essentially different tubes, that just so happen to have the same electrical characteristics. Much like a Honda Civic and a Ferrari California are both cars but are engineered and perform on different levels.


Yes, you and some others have said these are not a classic or traditional 300B sound.
I only have the stock EH Gold and now the Elrogs so that is the extent of my comparisons. I can say that I prefer Elrog's take on a 300B and by a long shot!

If you enjoy collecting 300B's and comparing them or rolling them with a particular type of music or amp, great!
Personally I have too many tubes  (_WHAT??? kick his A** out of here!!!_)  sitting in boxes and totes unused and hope to NOT start collecting 300B's!!!!


----------



## paradoxper

DJJEZ said:


> Got a pair of Elrog 300B's incoming. Honestly not a fan of my western electric 300b's so hope these are the ones
> 
> Was definetley influenced by @paradoxper


You'll be far rewarded. Look forward to your impressions.


----------



## DJJEZ

Just arrived, can't believe the size of these things. Will report back in a few days


----------



## nwavesailor

Yup, they are BIG in physical size and sound!


----------



## protoss

Getting a little jelly. Should buy now than later 😆


----------



## Wes S

DJJEZ said:


> Just arrived, can't believe the size of these things. Will report back in a few days


Some of the coolest looking tubes I have seen in person.  Welcome to the club and you are in for a treat no doubt.


----------



## paradoxper

DJJEZ said:


> Just arrived, can't believe the size of these things. Will report back in a few days


It takes only 17 minutes to hear these are a different level.


----------



## jonathan c

paradoxper said:


> It takes only 17 minutes to hear these are a different level.



…lowest prime number for a prime tube…1 minute…🤣


----------



## paradoxper

jonathan c said:


> …lowest prime number for a prime tube…1 minute…🤣


Listen to music for a minute, what is this ASR.


----------



## jonathan c




----------



## jonathan c

paradoxper said:


> Listen to music for a minute, what is this ASR.


🤣…the ASR mantra?… “music is for losers who don’t listen to graphs”…😳


----------



## Nicolas Yance

jonathan c said:


> 🤣…the ASR mantra?… “music is for losers who don’t listen to graphs”…😳


Music is not for enjoyment, graphs are about enjoyment.


----------



## jonathan c

Nicolas Yance said:


> Music is not for enjoyment, graphs are about enjoyment.


…..nothing better than a logarithmic axis…..axis: bold as love…..humbug!! 😤🤣


----------



## DJJEZ

Nicolas Yance said:


> Music is not for enjoyment, graphs are about enjoyment.


Higher SINAD = more enjoyment


----------



## ThanatosVI

paradoxper said:


> Listen to music for a minute, what is this ASR.


Actually I do think the Elrog would score quite well on ASR as well, at least compared to other tubes


----------



## protoss (Aug 17, 2022)

https://www.superbestaudiofriends.o...tric-300b-impressions-and-measurements.12404/

Western Electric 300B measurements on the Eddie Current.
@purr1n really likes the B  , great read and very interesting.


----------



## protoss (Aug 17, 2022)

ThanatosVI said:


> Actually I do think the Elrog would score quite well on ASR as well, at least compared to other tubes


I will probably bet on Emission Lab 300B standard to score the highest.

The EML 300B just plays, no coloration or the least of all the tubes I tested and heard. Nothing special, neutral, leaning on warm. Sound gets deep and there's layers of texture I am hearing. This tube is a great testing demo of a working 300b tube.


----------



## incredulousity (Aug 17, 2022)

protoss said:


> I will probably bet on Emission Lab 300B standard to score the highest.
> 
> The EML 300B just plays, no coloration or the least of all the tubes I tested and heard. Nothing special, neutral, leaning on warm. Sound gets deep and there's layers of texture I am hearing. This tube is a great testing demo of a working 300b tube.


Well it looks very pretty…

We need a gallery of high quality 300B tube pix, in light and dark (romantically underexposed) in this thread.

Impression from reading is that Elrog wins for sound technicality, but nothing seems to beat the WE in the dark.

Can you tell I’m bored, waiting for Envy to arrive?!


----------



## ThanatosVI (Aug 17, 2022)

incredulousity said:


> Well it looks very pretty…
> 
> We need a gallery of high quality 300B tube pix, in light and dark (romantically underexposed) in this thread.
> 
> ...


Which wood type?
Regular or performance Edition?


----------



## incredulousity

ThanatosVI said:


> Which would type?
> Regular or performance Edition?


Performance and oak. 

I already bought Paradoxper’s AudioNote 4300Es as the first roll.


----------



## ThanatosVI

incredulousity said:


> Performance and oak.
> 
> I already bought Paradoxper’s AudioNote 4300Es as the first roll.


Nice, I think I would start with Western Electric and then add Elrogs later on.

Which 6SN7 will you use?


----------



## paradoxper

incredulousity said:


> Well it looks very pretty…
> 
> We need a gallery of high quality 300B tube pix, in light and dark (romantically underexposed) in this thread.
> 
> ...


No way. The mesh are easily the coolest looking in the dark but nothing emits like the Elrogs.

Hang in there!


----------



## ThanatosVI

paradoxper said:


> No way. The mesh are easily the coolest looking in the dark but nothing emits like the Elrogs.
> 
> Hang in there!


Need picture proof


----------



## UntilThen

paradoxper said:


> It takes only 17 minutes to hear these are a different level.



Your recommendation better be correct. I can only afford one pair of 300 bees. Btw I need it down to 10 minutes.


----------



## paradoxper (Aug 17, 2022)

UntilThen said:


> Your recommendation better be correct. I can only afford one pair of 300 bees. Btw I need it down to 10 minutes.





ThanatosVI said:


> Need picture proof


Check out the Nighttime Shots thread really nice plasma, mesh and assorted variants.

I rarely steer wrong. But I've great timing.


----------



## UntilThen

paradoxper said:


> Check out the Nighttime Shots thread really nice plasma, mesh and assorted variants.
> 
> I rarely steer wrong. But I've great timing.



This is actually a very nice listen on my setup now.


----------



## incredulousity

ThanatosVI said:


> Nice, I think I would start with Western Electric and then add Elrogs later on.
> 
> Which 6SN7 will you use?


Stock at first, then we shall see. The NOS stuff is so hard to find now.


----------



## paradoxper

UntilThen said:


> This is actually a very nice listen on my setup now.


Glad I didn't recommend you listen to some number chart.


----------



## incredulousity

paradoxper said:


> Glad I didn't recommend you listen to some number chart.


No. You’re supposed to listen to graphs. Hasn’t ASR taught you anything?


----------



## jonathan c

See post #1,126…


----------



## Gazza (Aug 17, 2022)

They're heeeeeeeeeeeeeere!!!!!


















They arrived yesterday (way quicker than I expected) and I've been running them in since then. I have been lusting over a high-end pair of 300Bs for years and ever since the WE re-issues were announced I knew I would have them one day. This is the biggest valve investment I have made for my Manley pre but I hoped that it would be well worth it.

As such, I couldn't help myself and had a quick listen straight away and...wow. WOW. Already a huge leap beyond my ancient Sophia Electric Princess 300B. Richer, purer, more detail, deep bass and an absolute liquid sense of realism. One of the biggest recent upgrades to my sound alongside my Aqua DAC. I can't wait to hear how they improve over the next 100 hours. BTW, the packaging is spectacular: you really feel that this is a premium product.

The question now remains, which valves to upgrade next? My Sovtek 5AR4 (think they're 10 years old now) or the Northern Electric 6SL7? Which will produce the biggest upgrade?


----------



## UntilThen

Sexy ! Think I will get WE instead. 😀


----------



## incredulousity

Instead of what?


----------



## normie610

Gazza said:


> The question now remains, which valves to upgrade next? My Sovtek 5AR4 (think they're 10 years old now) or the Northern Electric 6SL7? Which will produce the biggest upgrade?


Both 😁 

In my experience, both will give roughly the same improvement.


----------



## number1sixerfan

I'm considering an EC Studio B to replace my current amp. I don't listen to dynamic headphones much anymore, so the price tag is attractive, plus I was just completely floored when I heard the R10 with it almost a month ago (I've heard it amped otherwise as well). Also for anyone that picked one up, what other amps were you considering? 

Whew the price of these tubes lol. I knew 300Bs were expensive but it's gotten so much worse over the years it seems. It's been so long since I've had an amp that used them. Where are people purchasing?


----------



## DJJEZ

number1sixerfan said:


> I'm considering an EC Studio B to replace my current amp. I don't listen to dynamic headphones much anymore, so the price tag is attractive, plus I was just completely floored when I heard the R10 with it almost a month ago (I've heard it amped otherwise as well). Also for anyone that picked one up, what other amps were you considering?
> 
> Whew the price of these tubes lol. I knew 300Bs were expensive but it's gotten so much worse over the years it seems. It's been so long since I've had an amp that used them. Where are people purchasing?


https://www.partsconnexion.com/ has the best prices.


----------



## number1sixerfan

DJJEZ said:


> https://www.partsconnexion.com/ has the best prices.



Thank you! Really appreciate it!


----------



## bobmysterious

I was pretty content with my SPL Phonitor XE but wanted a  tube amp.  Having had a Zana Deux SE in the past I was interested in going with Eddie Current again.  It just so happened at that time that Craig was putting out a new amp, the Studio 300B.  I placed my order and got mine on the first run, I think mine is number 25.  I did briefly look around at other amps, DNA, ampsandsound, etc. but decided that I wanted to go with EC.  Sound, build, aesthetics... The B has them all.  In a perfect world 300b tubes would be cheaper, but that just ain't the case.  I settled on EML Mesh plates and have been very happy with them.  EML rides the line between "reasonably affordable" and "high end."  This whole Elrog circle jerk is amusing, though it does have me interested in picking up a pair.  They're certainly not inexpensive, but I try and not shy away from investing in my hobbies.  If it makes you happy, the price is forgotten about pretty quickly.


----------



## Wes S (Aug 19, 2022)

bobmysterious said:


> I was pretty content with my SPL Phonitor XE but wanted a  tube amp.  Having had a Zana Deux SE in the past I was interested in going with Eddie Current again.  It just so happened at that time that Craig was putting out a new amp, the Studio 300B.  I placed my order and got mine on the first run, I think mine is number 25.  I did briefly look around at other amps, DNA, ampsandsound, etc. but decided that I wanted to go with EC.  Sound, build, aesthetics... The B has them all.  In a perfect world 300b tubes would be cheaper, but that just ain't the case.  I settled on EML Mesh plates and have been very happy with them.  EML rides the line between "reasonably affordable" and "high end."  This whole Elrog circle jerk is amusing, though it does have me interested in picking up a pair.  They're certainly not inexpensive, but I try and not shy away from investing in my hobbies.  If it makes you happy, the price is forgotten about pretty quickly.


If you want impact, texture and transparency in spades with a hint of organic warmth, the Elrog will do it for ya.  There is a reason we are all talking about them and joining the club. . .


----------



## Gazza

normie610 said:


> Both 😁
> 
> In my experience, both will give roughly the same improvement.



Nice. Think I'll do the 5AR4 next then as it's the oldest.

My WEs have about 40 hours on them now. Still a bit sharp on the high frequencies but it's slowly opening up. How long is the run-in time? I've seen reports from 100 hours to up to 500 (!!!).


----------



## bobmysterious

Wes S said:


> If you want impact, texture and transparency in spades with a hint of organic warmth, the Elrog will do it for ya.  There is a reason we are all talking about them and joining the club. . .


I have no doubt that they're great, which is why I'll pick up a pair sooner or later.  Until then, I'm waiting on the heavens to part and God to personally hand me a pair.


----------



## RobertSM

Gazza said:


> They're heeeeeeeeeeeeeere!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Congratulations and great DAC.

I gave the Aqua La Scala MKII Optologic a very serious consideration earlier this year in my hunt for a new DAC. I ended up going with a Weiss DAC501 4ch but the Aqua was a serious proformer.

I bet your digital front-end and the Manley Neo Classic with the new Western Electric 300B tubes is sounding mighty fine!


----------



## number1sixerfan

bobmysterious said:


> I was pretty content with my SPL Phonitor XE but wanted a  tube amp.  Having had a Zana Deux SE in the past I was interested in going with Eddie Current again.  It just so happened at that time that Craig was putting out a new amp, the Studio 300B.  I placed my order and got mine on the first run, I think mine is number 25.  I did briefly look around at other amps, DNA, ampsandsound, etc. but decided that I wanted to go with EC.  Sound, build, aesthetics... The B has them all.  In a perfect world 300b tubes would be cheaper, but that just ain't the case.  I settled on EML Mesh plates and have been very happy with them.  EML rides the line between "reasonably affordable" and "high end."  This whole Elrog circle jerk is amusing, though it does have me interested in picking up a pair.  They're certainly not inexpensive, but I try and not shy away from investing in my hobbies.  If it makes you happy, the price is forgotten about pretty quickly.



Appreciate this response. I'm pretty sold. The EC Zana Deux was one of my first really nice amps and it was just incredible. So to hear the Studio B recently and feel the same way, that's what's driving me there. I think I've settled on it. Now I just need to figure out where to sell a lung to grab a pair of NOS 300B tubes lol


----------



## protoss (Aug 20, 2022)

@number1sixerfan

Join the party 🥳

I was ultimately convinced by Van to get the  Studio B. Influence by @bobmysterious, @paradoxper and others that EC stuff is great 👌

The hottest tubes atm are *Elrog*, WE300, AN-4300E and ELM Mesh.
https://www.partsconnexion.com/ELROG-86824.html
Others are E.A.T and Takatsuki 300B but of course there's many other interesting stuff too.


----------



## nwavesailor (Aug 20, 2022)

bobmysterious said:


> I was pretty content with my SPL Phonitor XE but wanted a  tube amp.  Having had a Zana Deux SE in the past I was interested in going with Eddie Current again.  It just so happened at that time that Craig was putting out a new amp, the Studio 300B.  I placed my order and got mine on the first run, I think mine is number 25.  I did briefly look around at other amps, DNA, ampsandsound, etc. but decided that I wanted to go with EC.  Sound, build, aesthetics... The B has them all.  In a perfect world 300b tubes would be cheaper, but that just ain't the case.  I settled on EML Mesh plates and have been very happy with them.  EML rides the line between "reasonably affordable" and "high end."  This whole Elrog circle jerk is amusing, though it does have me interested in picking up a pair.  They're certainly not inexpensive, but I try and not shy away from investing in my hobbies.  If it makes you happy, the price is forgotten about pretty quickly.


Call it what you want, but there is a reason we are in a Circle Jerk regarding the Elrogs. It is not simply the flavor of the month and IMO not a subtle upgrade but then again YMMV
I do not own nor have I heard the ELM Mesh plates but I'm sure they are a very good 300B.


----------



## paradoxper

Oh, the circle jerk is very real. Very pleasurable.  

Don't miss out.


----------



## normie610

Gazza said:


> Nice. Think I'll do the 5AR4 next then as it's the oldest.
> 
> My WEs have about 40 hours on them now. Still a bit sharp on the high frequencies but it's slowly opening up. How long is the run-in time? I've seen reports from 100 hours to up to 500 (!!!).


Go get the Mullard CV1377 brown base. It sounds wonderful.

100-200 hours should do fine. Now that I have way more than 500 hours they sound absolutely beautiful. I’m considering the Elrogs because of the hype (yes, again I blame @paradoxper 😄) but I think I’ll hold on with the WEs for now. I found nothing lacking on my system at the moment, so I’m just gonna enjoy the music. Pure audio bliss indeed.


----------



## number1sixerfan

protoss said:


> @number1sixerfan
> 
> Join the party 🥳
> 
> ...



I was going to ask Van if he was interested in selling his lol 

But yea, I'm going to go ahead and email Craig. I know it seems easiest to reach Judy first? That's through the same email on their site right? (question is for anyone )


----------



## protoss (Aug 20, 2022)

number1sixerfan said:


> I know it seems easiest to reach Judy first?


Yes, email Judy, she is in charge of order and payments.
judiuthus@hotmail.com
It will take 3+ months to build.
The run should be over very soon. I am surprised its going on still.


----------



## bobmysterious

Miss Judy is the best!


----------



## Ciggavelli

These Elrog 300Bs are hard to find.  I can't find 4 anywhere for my 3ES.  Where did you all get your Elrogs (I'm in the US)?


----------



## paradoxper

Ciggavelli said:


> These Elrog 300Bs are hard to find.  I can't find 4 anywhere for my 3ES.  Where did you all get your Elrogs (I'm in the US)?


Send Partsconnexion an email asking when they may receive more.


----------



## DJJEZ

Ciggavelli said:


> These Elrog 300Bs are hard to find.  I can't find 4 anywhere for my 3ES.  Where did you all get your Elrogs (I'm in the US)?


https://www.partsconnexion.com/ELROG-86824.html


----------



## Gazza

normie610 said:


> Go get the Mullard CV1377 brown base. It sounds wonderful.
> 
> 100-200 hours should do fine. Now that I have way more than 500 hours they sound absolutely beautiful. I’m considering the Elrogs because of the hype (yes, again I blame @paradoxper 😄) but I think I’ll hold on with the WEs for now. I found nothing lacking on my system at the moment, so I’m just gonna enjoy the music. Pure audio bliss indeed.



Cheers, yeah, I'll try to find a NOS pair of the CV1377. For 6SL7 you suggested the LinLai over the RCA 5691 redbase, right? I'm looking for a deep, chunky bass w/holographic mids.


----------



## RobertSM

Gazza said:


> Cheers, yeah, I'll try to find a NOS pair of the CV1377. For 6SL7 you suggested the LinLai over the RCA 5691 redbase, right? I'm looking for a deep, chunky bass w/holographic mids.


Sorry I have to interject 

The most mid-centric 6SL7 is the 5691. A *very* close second is the Brimar CV1985. I realize that this question was asked of someone other than me. That said we are a community.


----------



## Ciggavelli

paradoxper said:


> Send Partsconnexion an email asking when they may receive more.





DJJEZ said:


> https://www.partsconnexion.com/ELROG-86824.html



Yeah, I tried to buy from Partsconnexcion, but they are sold out.  I'll email them and see when they are getting more.  Thanks!


----------



## nwavesailor

Too many of us bought Elrogs in the past few weeks!


----------



## ColSaulTigh

All good things to he who waits.

Put your order in and be patient.  I waited a month for my Elrog 5U4G's to arrive, and I'm so glad I did.  Get in line now, or get in line later.  There'll always be a line...


----------



## nwavesailor

I don’t have the quiver of 300B that @ColSaulTigh has put together,  but the Elrogs have certainly exceeded my expectations!


----------



## Stereolab42 (Aug 21, 2022)

Finally ordered some 300B Takatsukis from Partsconnexion... makes me a little suspicious why they are so much cheaper on these than everyone else, but that shop appears to have an impeccable reputation.


----------



## nwavesailor (Aug 21, 2022)

I had quite a few back and forth emails with Chris from PC when I was deciding between Tak's or Elrogs regarding their failure rate. I wanted to be sure that buying form a retailer in Canada that I had warranty coverage in the rare event of a failure. Both Tak and Elrogs have a 1 year warranty.

I have bought many parts from PC over the years and their service and delvery time is top shelf as well as having a sharp pencil. It may also be the strong exchange rate between the US and Canadian dollar that allows for better pricing at this time.


----------



## normie610

Gazza said:


> Cheers, yeah, I'll try to find a NOS pair of the CV1377. For 6SL7 you suggested the LinLai over the RCA 5691 redbase, right? I'm looking for a deep, chunky bass w/holographic mids.


RCA 5691 is a bit more v-shaped than Linlai but overall sound is similar. Perhaps Linlai sounds more “modern” than 5691 and both will give you ample bass. Holographic mids are already covered by the WEs. I just listened to my TC yesterday and the bass goes very deep with great punch.


----------



## Gazza

RobertSM said:


> Congratulations and great DAC.
> 
> I gave the Aqua La Scala MKII Optologic a very serious consideration earlier this year in my hunt for a new DAC. I ended up going with a Weiss DAC501 4ch but the Aqua was a serious proformer.
> 
> I bet your digital front-end and the Manley Neo Classic with the new Western Electric 300B tubes is sounding mighty fine!



I missed your message earlier. It's indeed an amazing combo. Very, very neutral and punchy, not the romantic sound you would expect from a valve pre and DAC w/ a hybrid valve output stage. Very organic but ruthless in letting you know what's on the recording.



RobertSM said:


> Sorry I have to interject
> 
> The most mid-centric 6SL7 is the 5691. A *very* close second is the Brimar CV1985. I realize that this question was asked of someone other than me. That said we are a community.



Is the bass strong on the 5691? Is there a prefered decade of manufacturing to track down or any time will do? Like these for example?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/225092612376?hash=item346890b118:g:AXAAAOSwyd9iV1aL



normie610 said:


> RCA 5691 is a bit more v-shaped than Linlai but overall sound is similar. Perhaps Linlai sounds more “modern” than 5691 and both will give you ample bass. Holographic mids are already covered by the WEs. I just listened to my TC yesterday and the bass goes very deep with great punch.



I'm wondering if I should upgrade to a "classic" like the 5691 first and then get a modern Linlai later to see how they compare.


----------



## normie610

Gazza said:


> I'm wondering if I should upgrade to a "classic" like the 5691 first and then get a modern Linlai later to see how they compare.


That’s how I did it. There are still plenty of 5691 for sale so I think you should try those first.


----------



## llamaluv

Stereolab42 said:


> Finally ordered some 300B Takatsukis from Partsconnexion... makes me a little suspicious why they are so much cheaper on these than everyone else, but that shop appears to have an impeccable reputation.


I went through the same thought process when getting the Taks from there as well. I concluded that it just speaks to how much mark-up some other places try to get away with <cough>_woo_</cough>. But I had no complaints with my order from Partsconnexion.

Relatedly, I got a pair of Duelund coupling capacitors (for my 300B amp) about two years back from somewhere else, and was alarmed (haha) to discover they were selling on Partconnexion just recently for literally 35% of what I had paid.


----------



## ARCXENOS

Hi all, I see many familiar names 

If I am interested in mids, vocals and clarity, which set of 300b should I look towards to? Those elrogs look stunning and from what I have read, is something that I think I will enjoy


----------



## normie610

ARCXENOS said:


> Hi all, I see many familiar names
> 
> If I am interested in mids, vocals and clarity, which set of 300b should I look towards to? Those elrogs look stunning and from what I have read, is something that I think I will enjoy


WE 🤞🏼


----------



## lumdicks (Aug 23, 2022)

ARCXENOS said:


> Hi all, I see many familiar names
> 
> If I am interested in mids, vocals and clarity, which set of 300b should I look towards to? Those elrogs look stunning and from what I have read, is something that I think I will enjoy


I would say Takatsuki TA-300B is a perfect match for you. I have 2 pairs of 60s and 70s vintage WE300B and they have the sweetest mid but if you are also looking for clarity, the Tak is your best choice.


----------



## incredulousity

Except Elrog. “They say.”


----------



## paradoxper

ARCXENOS said:


> Hi all, I see many familiar names
> 
> If I am interested in mids, vocals and clarity, which set of 300b should I look towards to? Those elrogs look stunning and from what I have read, is something that I think I will enjoy


If you're looking to trade and give in to musicality with those parameters, the WE 300B would be first pick. If you don't want to make the full trade, Takatsuki 300B maintains a tighter bass response with better extension. If you don't want to make the trade at all, Elrogs have no peer and really show a more cohesive scape.

A special consideration for AN 4300E which blends into the middle and still gives me seller's remorse.

Follow your listening preference.

And also grab a pair of MELZ 1578 6SN7.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

paradoxper said:


> If you're looking to trade and give in to musicality with those parameters, the WE 300B would be first pick. If you don't want to make the full trade, Takatsuki 300B maintains a tighter bass response with better extension. If you don't want to make the trade at all, Elrogs have no peer and really show a more cohesive scape.
> 
> A special consideration for AN 4300E which blends into the middle and still gives me seller's remorse.
> 
> ...


----------



## nwavesailor (Aug 23, 2022)

I am really enjoying the Elrod 300B with both MELZ 1578 as well as TSRP 6SN7 and 6F8G / VT-99 (round plate) both from the 1940's in the Envy.
I have a hard time wrapping my brain around 75 year old tubes, made during WW II, that are still holding vacuum and sound so darn good!!!


----------



## JTbbb

I have never heard my Sennhieser HD800S sound so good! This with Elrog 300B, Mullard ecc32’s, in Envy , impedance mid.


----------



## Hiker816

What vintage and getter type MELZ 1578s is everyone running?


----------



## ColSaulTigh

nwavesailor said:


> I am really enjoying the Elrod 300B with both MELZ 1578 as well as TSRP 6SN7 and 6F8G / VT-99 (round plate) both from the 1940's in the Envy.
> I have a hard time wrapping my brain around 75 year old tubes, made during WW II, that are still holding vacuum and sound so darn good!!!


My *80* year old Sylvania 6F8G's that just arrived from Argentina Saturday.  Fourth WWII tube sets in my collection, and all sound perfect!


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Hiker816 said:


> What vintage and getter type MELZ 1578s is everyone running?


Mine are from the 80's, I think.  I'm working on getting a pair from the 50's for comparison.


----------



## paradoxper

ColSaulTigh said:


> Mine are from the 80's, I think.  I'm working on getting a pair from the 50's for comparison.


That's called a sure thing.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

paradoxper said:


> That's called a sure thing.


Don't count your chickens before they hatch


----------



## paradoxper

ColSaulTigh said:


> Don't count your chickens before they hatch


Didn't you say get in line or get in line. Line up!


----------



## nwavesailor

My 1578 were sold to me as 1955 but I see no marking to denote a year of production. It may be in the construction details. Perhaps @paradoxper knows the vintages from the internals.

I was fortunate to find TS and NU VT-99 at a local tube dealer in the early 2000's for $25 / pair. I kept 3 pairs but gave others away, DOAH

The US Army order # is higher than @ColSaulTigh so these may be later production but I'm pretty sure still WW II vintage.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

paradoxper said:


> Didn't you say get in line or get in line. Line up!


If you're not first, you're last!


----------



## ColSaulTigh (Aug 23, 2022)

nwavesailor said:


> My 1578 were sold to me as 1955 but I see no marking to denote a year of production. It may be in the construction details. Perhaps @paradoxper knows the vintages from the internals.
> 
> I was fortunate to find TS and NU VT-99 at a local tube dealer in the early 2000's for $25 / pair. I kept 3 pairs but gave others away, DOAH
> 
> The US Army order # is higher than @ColSaulTigh so these may be later production but I'm pretty sure still WW II vintage.


Here's the WWII family:
1941 US Navy CRC 6F8G RCA
1942 US Army Signal Corps 6F8G Tung Sol
1942 US Army Signal CORPS 6F8G Sylvania
1945 US Army US Navy JAN CRC 6SN7GT



ALL NOS.  ALL wonderful!


----------



## paradoxper

nwavesailor said:


> My 1578 were sold to me as 1955 but I see no marking to denote a year of production. It may be in the construction details. Perhaps @paradoxper knows the vintages from the internals.
> 
> I was fortunate to find TS and NU VT-99 at a local tube dealer in the early 2000's for $25 / pair. I kept 3 pairs but gave others away, DOAH
> 
> The US Army order # is higher than @ColSaulTigh so these may be later production but I'm pretty sure still WW II vintage.


IMO all of the proper MELZ 1578 follow the same sound. I've all the years and do feel exclusivity bites ass.

As such, materials and construction are identical, without physical markers, good luck identifying the year.


----------



## nwavesailor (Aug 24, 2022)

ColSaulTigh said:


> Here's the WWII family:
> 1941 US Navy CRC 6F8G RCA
> 1942 US Army Signal Corps 6F8G Tung Sol
> 1942 US Army Signal CORPS 6F8G Sylvania
> ...



NICE!

We have the same 1942 Tung Sol round plate version VT-99 / 6F8G. These are crazy good and I'm very fortunate to have a few pairs of these gems.
The National Union are also WW II production, not smoked glass, but they are round plates and sound great too!


----------



## protoss

Owning tubes around the time of "Operation Barbarossa" is bonkers!


----------



## Stereolab42

lumdicks said:


> I would say Takatsuki TA-300B is a perfect match for you. I have 2 pairs of 60s and 70s vintage WE300B and they have the sweetest mid but if you are also looking for clarity, the Tak is your best choice.


Yup, just got my Tats, they are wonderful. Funny everyone has been talking about Melz lately, I have a bunch from the '50s, been running them for a few weeks now.


----------



## protoss (Aug 24, 2022)

Congrats!

On a side note, companies need to rotate those sockets for us to see the labels, or the tube companies should double print their logos, back, and front.
It looks nice to see logos on tubes for some reason. Anything besides tubes looks terrible.


----------



## protoss

I wonder if the older Takatsuki sounded the same.


----------



## ARCXENOS

I am wondering if anyone knows what is the expected lifespan of the elrog ER300B, is it on par with other 300b tubes?

Very close to pushing the button for a pair


----------



## ardbeg1975

I believe this has been covered a few times but wanted to chime in myself on the differences between the WE and Elrogs in the Studio B.

TLDR version using famous female vocalists as metaphors
Elrog ER300B = Etta James or Koko Taylor
WE 300B = Ella Fitzgerald

Slightly longer version. The difference between the WE and Elrog was immediately apparent. The Elrogs have more "growl" and body, hit harder down in lower frequencies, and have faster transient handling but otherwise seem more even across the FR spectrum than the WEs which are more airy (more noticeable treble in the mix), draw out the sound a bit more (slower attack), are intoxicating in the mids, and don't hit down low with the same authority as the Elrogs. Both are great in their own ways but very, very different presentations.


----------



## Nicolas Yance

ardbeg1975 said:


> I believe this has been covered a few times but wanted to chime in myself on the differences between the WE and Elrogs in the Studio B.
> 
> TLDR version using famous female vocalists as metaphors
> Elrog ER300B = Etta James or Koko Taylor
> ...


Thank you for your assessment. 

@ColSaulTigh, does this apply to the WA5? I've one with fully internal upgrades and I was debating which way to go with tube upgrades next year. WE or Elrog, on the 5u4g sockets I'm going for a pair of Elrogs.
​


----------



## ColSaulTigh (Aug 26, 2022)

Nicolas Yance said:


> Thank you for your assessment.
> 
> @ColSaulTigh, does this apply to the WA5? I've one with fully internal upgrades and I was debating which way to go with tube upgrades next year. WE or Elrog, on the 5u4g sockets I'm going for a pair of Elrogs.
> ​


Elrog 300B = Whitney Houston
WE 300B = Aretha Franklin
Takatsuki 300B = Ella Fitzgerald

Elrogs (300b-Mo are what I have, have not experienced 'standard' ER300B's) are IMO a much more musical, strong, and full presentation.  They are not thick, they are not thin, they are simply magnificent.  They do NOT sound like any other 300B I've heard yet.  They are DIFFERENT, and that's not a bad thing.

The WE's are indeed slower and a touch thicker, with a nice sweetness, but they definitely impart a more "tubey" sound.  If softer and slower is your thing (jazz, blues, R&B, soul), then this is the better direction if for nothing else than the intimacy and slowness

The Takatsuki's are where you go if you want a faster, cleaner 300B.  They're stronger than the WE's, but not as rich.  Classical, female vocals, electric guitar, acoustic anything seems to be their "sweet spot".

As for the 5U4G's, I've said it before, and I'll say it again.  There simply isn't anything better.  Period.  Fight me.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

I forgot to add my obligatory pic:


----------



## Sampajanna

Those VT with woo adapters are amongst my all-time favorite 6SN7 drivers! Excellent tubes! I use them in my amp as well


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Sampajanna said:


> Those VT with woo adapters are amongst my all-time favorite 6SN7 drivers! Excellent tubes! I use them in my amp as well


I'm addicted to these and the Melz 1578's.  This pair of Tung Sol's came from Argentina - WWII stock, 1942 US Army Signal Corps.  For 80 year-old tubes, they sound magnificient.


----------



## jonathan c

ColSaulTigh said:


> I'm addicted to these and the Melz 1578's.  This pair of Tung Sol's came from Argentina - WWII stock, 1942 US Army Signal Corps.  _Because they are _80 year-old tubes, they sound magnificient.


FTFY…[Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021]


----------



## karangovil (Aug 27, 2022)

I am finally getting my first 300B amp. Put in an order for a Studio B yesterday  so now the hunt for 300B begins and this thread is amazing...so much good information. I am currently thinking of getting an Elrog 300B to start with and perhaps adding a Genalex Gold Lion PX300B for some variety. Also trying to find a metal base Mullard base GZ34 if I can (although Craig said not to worry about the rectifier and better spend my money on 300B). The Elrog is currently not available on PartsConnexion but since the amp will take 5-6 weeks, I'm hoping to get it by then.

Are there any metal music listeners with their 300B amps? I was wondering if people had any preferences or specific experiences with 300B tubes when listening to heavy metal type stuff. For reference, I primarily listen out of my ZMF Atrium/VC/Auteur and LCD-X.

Also, any suggestions for a good complement to Elrogs besides Genalex (or if Genalex is maybe not a good choice)?


----------



## ardbeg1975 (Aug 27, 2022)

karangovil said:


> I am finally getting my first 300B amp. Put in an order for a Studio B yesterday  so now the hunt for 300B begins and this thread is amazing...so much good information. I am currently thinking of getting an Elrog 300B to start with and perhaps adding a Genalex Gold Lion PX300B for some variety. Also trying to find a metal base Mullard base GZ34 if I can (although Craig said not to worry about the rectifier and better spend my money on 300B). The Elrog is currently not available on PartsConnexion but since the amp will take 5-6 weeks, I'm hoping to get it by then.
> 
> Are there any metal music listeners with their 300B amps? I was wondering if people had any preferences or specific experiences with 300B tubes when listening to heavy metal type stuff. For reference, I primarily listen out of my ZMF Atrium/VC/Auteur and LCD-X.


Elrog for metal. Jinjer, High on Fire etc. sound awesome. WE will be a bit too “sweet” and slow sounding for metal in my opinion unless you listen to a lot of Doom for which slow is good.


----------



## Sampajanna

The Psvanne Acme are nice as well.


----------



## karangovil

ardbeg1975 said:


> Elrog for metal. Jinjer, High on Fire etc. sound awesome. WE will be a bit too “sweet” and slow sounding for metal in my opinion unless you listen to a lot of Doom for which slow is good.


Nice! That's good to know, I do listen to Doom a fair bit so WE might be a good addition in future.

My typical go to for metal is melodic death metal (early In Flames, Carcass, At the Gates etc.), old school thrash (Slayer), Gojira, Trivium, Meshuggah among more modern stuff to name a few.


----------



## ardbeg1975

karangovil said:


> Nice! That's good to know, I do listen to Doom a fair bit so WE might be a good addition in future.
> 
> My typical go to for metal is melodic death metal (early In Flames, Carcass, At the Gates etc.), old school thrash (Slayer), Gojira, Trivium, Meshuggah among more modern stuff to name a few.


Definitely go with a faster tube - Elrog and other tube suggestions on this forum with non-classic 300B sound signature.


----------



## karangovil (Aug 27, 2022)

ardbeg1975 said:


> Definitely go with a faster tube - Elrog and other tube suggestions on this forum with non-classic 300B sound signature.


I have seen Elrog mentioned as a non-classic 300B but didn't come across many others. Does Psvane Acme belong in that category?

I also do listen to Jazz, fusion, prog rock type music fairly often so would like to have another pair with a complementary sound signature.


----------



## ThanatosVI

karangovil said:


> I have seen Elrog mentioned as a non-classic 300B but didn't come across many others. Mind sharing some?
> 
> I also do listen to Jazz, fusion, prog rock type music fairly often so would like to have another pair with a complementary sound signature.


Top performer (in no order just a list no ranking):
Elrog 300B
Western Electric 300B 
Takatsuki 300B
E.M.L 300B
Note: there are several Variants of Elrog and EML all said to be very good 

Slightly more affordable but still well regarded:
Fullmusic 300B
Linlai 300B
PSVane WE300B

Super budget (Stock options are usually one of these)
Gold Lion 300B
JJ 300B
Electro Harmonix 300B


----------



## karangovil

ThanatosVI said:


> Top performer (in no order just a list no ranking):
> Elrog 300B
> Western Electric 300B
> Takatsuki 300B
> ...


Thanks for the detailed response! I'm definitely settled on Elrog but I'll do some more research on faster 300Bs. I want to get one more pair for some variety


----------



## ardbeg1975 (Aug 27, 2022)

karangovil said:


> I have seen Elrog mentioned as a non-classic 300B but didn't come across many others. Does Psvane Acme belong in that category?
> 
> I also do listen to Jazz, fusion, prog rock type music fairly often so would like to have another pair with a complementary sound signature.


From @ColSaulTigh, “The Takatsuki's are where you go if you want a faster, cleaner 300B. They're stronger than the WE's, but not as rich.” I haven’t heard the Takatsuki’s but they may be a good alt to Elrog or Elrog-Mos.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

ardbeg1975 said:


> From @ColSaulTigh, “The Takatsuki's are where you go if you want a faster, cleaner 300B. They're stronger than the WE's, but not as rich.” I haven’t heard the Takatsuki’s but they may be a good alt to Elrog or Elrog-Mos.


The Takatsuki's are probably the best, cleanest, "classic 300B" architecture tube out there.  They're better than even the (current gen) Western Electric 300B's (which are, IMO, a bit sluggish and thicker sounding).  

Bear in mind, that the Tak's are still using classic 300B architecture, and as such, will still suffer a bit of the same issues that most "classic" 300B architecture tubes suffer, which is to say they sound slightly less full and precise.  The Elrogs are simply designed better and execute better on just about every level.

Message Parts Connexion and get on a list - they usually refill stock within 30 days.

As for the rectifiers, I can't speak to the Eddie Current 300B amps and how they react to rectifiers.  But with my Woo Audio WA5-LE (and my Woo Audio WA6's), the rectifiers are very impactful.  YMMV.


----------



## karangovil

Thanks @ColSaulTigh and @ardbeg1975 for the suggestions and detailed response. I have emailed PartsConnexion to get on a list for Elrog.

I was able to score a Mullard GZ34 metal base as well so at least I'll be able to try out and see if rectifier makes a difference ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


----------



## dadracer2

ThanatosVI said:


> Top performer (in no order just a list no ranking):
> Elrog 300B
> Western Electric 300B
> Takatsuki 300B
> ...


Did I read somewhere that PSVANE have bought up the old Full Music company?


----------



## ThanatosVI

dadracer2 said:


> Did I read somewhere that PSVANE have bought up the old Full Music company?


Not the Company as such but parts their tooling and gear. 
Other parts have been bought by Linlai


----------



## dadracer2

ThanatosVI said:


> Not the Company as such but parts their tooling and gear.
> Other parts have been bought by Linlai


Yes, I guess that seems more likely as they had already closed down hadn't they? Still it's good that some of their technology can live on.


----------



## paradoxper

karangovil said:


> I have seen Elrog mentioned as a non-classic 300B but didn't come across many others. Does Psvane Acme belong in that category?
> 
> I also do listen to Jazz, fusion, prog rock type music fairly often so would like to have another pair with a complementary sound signature.


The ACME are quite 300B in they're very warm with lush midrange with more bloom than a WE -- it's also softer more and more rounded sounding which is more complementary to Tak, KR, Elrog, and AN than the WE or replica which would fit to jazz and fusion ok but it is a hazy tube.

If it's your first tube, go WE (although the ER-300B is what you want), if you have others, the AN 4300E is the perfect thing.


----------



## normie610

paradoxper said:


> (although the ER-300B is what you want)


Ha! I fear this preaching will end up like CFA3 for me 😂


----------



## ThanatosVI

normie610 said:


> Ha! I fear this preaching will end up like CFA3 for me 😂


It's only in your best interest


----------



## karangovil

paradoxper said:


> The ACME are quite 300B in they're very warm with lush midrange with more bloom than a WE -- it's also softer more and more rounded sounding which is more complementary to Tak, KR, Elrog, and AN than the WE or replica which would fit to jazz and fusion ok but it is a hazy tube.
> 
> If it's your first tube, go WE (although the ER-300B is what you want), if you have others, the AN 4300E is the perfect thing.


Really appreciate the details but I'm afraid I jumped the gun too quick and already ordered the Elrog 300B Mo ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. It'll take my wallet some time to recover from the hit but I'll eventually recover and will need another dose of a new set of tubes and will go for a more classic 300B then


----------



## paradoxper

normie610 said:


> Ha! I fear this preaching will end up like CFA3 for me 😂


Bah. It is inevitable.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

karangovil said:


> Really appreciate the details but I'm afraid I jumped the gun too quick and already ordered the Elrog 300B Mo ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. It'll take my wallet some time to recover from the hit but I'll eventually recover and will need another dose of a new set of tubes and will go for a more classic 300B then


One of my disciples has joined the flock!  Welcome to the House of Elrog!


----------



## ARCXENOS

Found out my local distributor is still active, and well....Let me in the cult of ELROG

Where is the petition for them to make some 6SN7s too


----------



## ThanatosVI

ARCXENOS said:


> Where is the petition for them to make some 6SN7s too


I actually drop them an email about this every now and then (same for Western Electric)


----------



## ColSaulTigh

ARCXENOS said:


> Found out my local distributor is still active, and well....Let me in the cult of ELROG
> 
> Where is the petition for them to make some 6SN7s too


Welcome, my child!


----------



## DJJEZ (Sep 2, 2022)

The Elrog's are everything people say they are, incredible dynamics, bass, layering, imaging and depth to the music. I sold my new production western electric 300B's after hearing these lol

I'm running a telefunken 12ax7 smooth plate and  NOS siemens GZ34 recitifers with the elrogs.

I like them so much I've got Elrog 5U4G's on order which I'm currently waiting to be shipped.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

DJJEZ said:


> The Elrog's are everything people say they are, incredible dynamics, bass, layering, imaging and depth to the music. I sold my new production western electric 300B's after hearing these lol
> 
> I'm running a telefunken 12ax7 smooth plate and  NOS siemens GZ34 recitifers with the elrogs.
> 
> I like them so much I've got Elrog 5U4G's on order which I'm currently waiting to be shipped.


Order the 300B-Mo's while you're at it.  Nothing but the best for Октябрьская революция!


----------



## Gazza

@normie610 Went an ordered a matched NOS pair of Mullard GZR4/5AR4 and a matched NOS pair of RCA 5691 red base valves. Thanks for your 2c.

Can't wait to fit them to my Manley and hear how they sound with my WE300Bs. 

Might leave my 0D3 as is as they're working.


----------



## karangovil

My Studio B is still likely 4-6 weeks out but at least I got the 300B covered


----------



## JTbbb

Elrog’s rule! They even glow in the sunshine 😀.


----------



## karangovil

JTbbb said:


> Elrog’s rule! They even glow in the sunshine 😀.


That’s a beautiful shot. Envy really is an aptly named amp


----------



## ARCXENOS

JTbbb said:


> Elrog’s rule! They even glow in the sunshine 😀.



I have a different amp but almost the same tube setup, I love the mullard + elrog combo!


----------



## MAURO16164

My 2 mono 300b amplifiers by Megahertz, a very good Italian craftsman.


----------



## ThanatosVI

MAURO16164 said:


> My 2 mono 300b amplifiers by Megahertz, a very good Italian craftsman.


Are the headphone outs standard or a special request?


----------



## MAURO16164

ThanatosVI said:


> Are the headphone outs standard or a special request?


The whole amplifier is a special request, starting from the case to get to the double xlr input ...


----------



## JTbbb

MAURO16164 said:


> My 2 mono 300b amplifiers by Megahertz, a very good Italian craftsman.


Beautiful!


----------



## paradoxper

karangovil said:


> My Studio B is still likely 4-6 weeks out but at least I got the 300B covered


Nods.


----------



## nwavesailor

@paradoxper was very helpful in his take on various 300B. I was planning to buy the WE 300B but am glad I went right to the Elrogs w/o getting the WE's!!!


----------



## incredulousity

Yes. WE probably hates @paradoxper !


----------



## paradoxper

incredulousity said:


> Yes. WE probably hates @paradoxper !


I better be a good boy as WE is releasing their 6SN7 early next year. They better hope Elrog doesn't have the same plan.


----------



## ThanatosVI

paradoxper said:


> I better be a good boy as WE is releasing their 6SN7 early next year. They better hope Elrog doesn't have the same plan.


Finally!
Personally I hope Elrog has the same plan, but I don't think that this is the case


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Elrog might be the next Melz of 6SN7's...


----------



## incredulousity

paradoxper said:


> I better be a good boy as WE is releasing their 6SN7 early next year. They better hope Elrog doesn't have the same plan.


I hope they do. I’ll get both, I’m sure.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Not a bad price for a Gen 1 Woo Audio WA5-LE.  Can't speak for the amp or owner, just looking at the price for a 300B amp....

*https://www.head-fi.org/classifieds/woo-audio-wa5-le-1st-gen-w-premium-parts-upgrade-black.32426/*


----------



## ARCXENOS

paradoxper said:


> I better be a good boy as WE is releasing their 6SN7 early next year. They better hope Elrog doesn't have the same plan.


I would probably buy both if they both exist (at 6SN7 prices of course)

The ER300B impressed me so much, it made me wish my amp could take in other elrog tubes..


----------



## paradoxper

ARCXENOS said:


> I would probably buy both if they both exist (at 6SN7 prices of course)
> 
> The ER300B impressed me so much, it made me wish my amp could take in other elrog tubes..


Ha. Yup! I am currently contemplating a 300B DAC and headamp to go full Elrog. It's that real.


----------



## normie610

Still no Elrogs here 😁


----------



## ThanatosVI

normie610 said:


> Still no Elrogs here 😁


I love how this is black and white, because without Elrogs there is much sadness...


----------



## paradoxper

ThanatosVI said:


> I love how this is black and white, because without Elrogs there is much sadness...


LMAO. Dead.


----------



## normie610

ThanatosVI said:


> I love how this is black and white, because without Elrogs there is much sadness...


Well you love black, so….. 😂



paradoxper said:


> LMAO. Dead.


The Walking Dead 😜


----------



## paradoxper

With stock issues at PCX, I just placed another order for more Elrogs.

https://www.mcru.co.uk/?v=2488e4b60dff


----------



## normie610

paradoxper said:


> With stock issues at PCX, I just placed another order for more Elrogs.
> 
> https://www.mcru.co.uk/?v=2488e4b60dff


You brute!!


----------



## paradoxper

normie610 said:


> You brute!!


I'm a real sucker, sadly, inevitably full of glee.


----------



## normie610

No Elrogs part II 😁 the CA1a is damn good!!


----------



## dadracer2

paradoxper said:


> With stock issues at PCX, I just placed another order for more Elrogs.
> 
> https://www.mcru.co.uk/?v=2488e4b60dff


Aha, I didn't know they stocked Elrog valves. I have been busy all week buying LPs from them! Good shout.


----------



## paradoxper

With very high demand and slow supply, you guys should put deposits down for Elrog tubes if you are currently acquiring. Deposits are just $100 for November arrivals.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

paradoxper said:


> With very high demand and slow supply, you guys should put deposits down for Elrog tubes if you are currently acquiring. Deposits are just $100 for November arrivals.


Is that through PCX?


----------



## paradoxper

ColSaulTigh said:


> Is that through PCX?


Yes.


----------



## incredulousity

Now just dreaming of an Elrog 6SN7… The Mo are burning in on Envy.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

incredulousity said:


> Now just dreaming of an Elrog 6SN7… The Mo are burning in on Envy.


Big Mo....good choice!  Get some Melz from @paradoxper  and you'll be all set!


----------



## incredulousity (Sep 12, 2022)

ColSaulTigh said:


> Big Mo....good choice!  Get some Melz from @paradoxper  and you'll be all set!


I have them. I’m just making myself burn in the PSVanes first.

I also have his AN4300E, which are great too. I’m not bothering with the Full Music tubes yet. Maybe never.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

incredulousity said:


> I have them. I’m just making myself burn in the PSVanes first.
> 
> I also have his AN4300E, which are great too. I’m not bothering with the Full Music tubes yet. Maybe never.



I was tempted by the AN4300's, but resisted the urge to let my wallet take a breath.  I'll probably snag a set if I see them pop up on the classifieds one day...


----------



## normie610

Damn I couldn't resist the hype on Elrogs. Just pulled the trigger and hopefully by tomorrow I can listen to them. And you're to blame @paradoxper !!


----------



## paradoxper

normie610 said:


> Damn I couldn't resist the hype on Elrogs. Just pulled the trigger and hopefully by tomorrow I can listen to them. And you're to blame @paradoxper !!


I am always to blame. I bought my own hype, purchased a 300B DAC and enslaved myself to another quad of Elrogs.

Can't wait to hear what you think!


----------



## normie610

paradoxper said:


> I am always to blame. I bought my own hype, purchased a 300B DAC and enslaved myself to another quad of Elrogs.
> 
> Can't wait to hear what you think!


Is there such thing as a 300B DAC? Which one is it?


----------



## paradoxper

normie610 said:


> Is there such thing as a 300B DAC? Which one is it?


They are few. Acuhorn XT.


----------



## normie610

paradoxper said:


> They are few. Acuhorn XT.


So does this mean you’re getting rid of Ref 3? 😁


----------



## ColSaulTigh

paradoxper said:


> I am always to blame. I bought my own hype, purchased a 300B DAC and enslaved myself to another quad of Elrogs.
> 
> Can't wait to hear what you think!


I think I goaded you into buying the first pair of Elrogs, so technically, I guess I'm to blame...


----------



## paradoxper

ColSaulTigh said:


> I think I goaded you into buying the first pair of Elrogs, so technically, I guess I'm to blame...


Yes, you used me as your test goat.


----------



## incredulousity

paradoxper said:


> Yes, you used me as your test goat.


I think Elrog and PartsConnexion should pay @paradoxper and @ColSaulTigh a commission.


----------



## paradoxper

incredulousity said:


> I think Elrog and PartsConnexion should pay @paradoxper and @ColSaulTigh a commission.


I've always served the people. I could do with free 300B. I'm going ****ing broke!  🤣


----------



## ColSaulTigh

incredulousity said:


> I think Elrog and PartsConnexion should pay @paradoxper and @ColSaulTigh a commission.


Agreed!  I'll take payment in the form of shop credit.


----------



## normie610

So listening to these beasts as I type. Funnily enough I couldn’t really discern major differences with WEs 😂

The Elrogs are perhaps a tad more dynamic with a bit more details but I feel like I’m missing that romantic & euphonic midrange from WEs. To my ears the Elrogs sound more flat. Perhaps I’ll try rolling 6SL7GT (just acquired a pair of NOS Brimar and NOS Fivre). It could be that my Linlai E-6SL7s don’t have good synergy since they‘re also “modern” sounding like the Elrogs.


----------



## paradoxper

normie610 said:


> So listening to these beasts as I type. Funnily enough I couldn’t really discern major differences with WEs 😂
> 
> The Elrogs are perhaps a tad more dynamic with a bit more details but I feel like I’m missing that romantic & euphonic midrange from WEs. To my ears the Elrogs sound more flat. Perhaps I’ll try rolling 6SL7GT (just acquired a pair of NOS Brimar and NOS Fivre). It could be that my Linlai E-6SL7s don’t have good synergy since they‘re also “modern” sounding like the Elrogs.


Is that 3 1/2 listening minutes? Give it maybe 50 hours first.


----------



## normie610

paradoxper said:


> Is that 3 1/2 listening minutes? Give it maybe 50 hours first.


10 seconds 😂

Just rolled the Linlai with Brimar, and now that lushness is back 😁 but this time with a bit grander sound than WE, perhaps more expansive soundstage? Will do some more listening tonight and tomorrow morning.


----------



## paradoxper

normie610 said:


> 10 seconds 😂
> 
> Just rolled the Linlai with Brimar, and now that lushness is back 😁 but this time with a bit grander sound than WE, perhaps more expansive soundstage? Will do some more listening tonight and tomorrow morning.


You are chaos.


----------



## normie610

The Elrogs look like giants among the dwarves


----------



## Whitigir

normie610 said:


> The Elrogs look like giants among the dwarves


Beautiful purple Sylvania


----------



## normie610

Ok I think the Brimar is doing a similar thing compared to Linlai but at the opposite end on the Manley.

Linlai when paired with WE brings a modern touch to the sound as it provides more dynamics and energy to the WE.

On the other hand, Brimar when paired with Elrog brings back the lushness of 300B with overall net result a tad more dynamics and grander soundstage compared to the above pairing. Which one do I prefer? Perhaps at this stage is a bit difficult to judge, but I’ll give the edge slightly to Brimar & Elrog pairing.


----------



## normie610

Whitigir said:


> Beautiful purple Sylvania


Great eye! Yes the OD3 is rather light purple-ish.


----------



## incredulousity

My Elrog Mo have about 65 hours on them, and are as good as I want and expect them to be, but they are still improving. This on Envy. No complaints!


----------



## ColSaulTigh

My general note regarding the Elrogs is "weight".  Everything playing through them has more gravitas.  Bass becomes rich without becoming bloated, mids are pushed forward without becoming hollow, highs are clean without sibilance.

They just improve the overall musical experience.


----------



## normie610

Well, shout-out to both @paradoxper and @ColSaulTigh for preaching the Elrogs. It does bring some improvement over WEs. They sound more lively and energetic without sacrificing any musicality. Listening to violins in classical pieces are such a joy. Bass hits hard in other genres whereas treble has that same extension as WEs (if not better).

I think the synergy with input/preamp tubes is also important to reach that level. I managed to finally get this incredible sound by pairing the Elrogs with Brimar 6SL7GTs. The Elrogs didn’t have a good synergy with Linlai E-6SL7s (which in turn has very good synergy with WEs). In the coming days, I’ll be rolling more input tubes since I have a few (RCA red base, and my previous favorite the Tung Sol 6SU7GTY among others).

I’m also in the hunt for MELZ 1579 but apparently not that easy to find compared to 1578. I did manage to snatch a pair of NOS MELZ 6N9S (as I understand these are the older version of 1579). We’ll see how it goes. But as of now, the sound is pretty incredible!

The Acuhorn XT DAC looks interesting and I’m quite intrigued by it. But since it‘s doesn’t have ethernet input and not able to play DSD512, I’d have to buy a separate streamer and use Roon to downsample 512 files I have in my library. But I guess never say never!

Back to enjoying the Elrogs!


----------



## paradoxper

normie610 said:


> Well, shout-out to both @paradoxper and @ColSaulTigh for preaching the Elrogs. It does bring some improvement over WEs. They sound more lively and energetic without sacrificing any musicality. Listening to violins in classical pieces are such a joy. Bass hits hard in other genres whereas treble has that same extension as WEs (if not better).
> 
> I think the synergy with input/preamp tubes is also important to reach that level. I managed to finally get this incredible sound by pairing the Elrogs with Brimar 6SL7GTs. The Elrogs didn’t have a good synergy with Linlai E-6SL7s (which in turn has very good synergy with WEs). In the coming days, I’ll be rolling more input tubes since I have a few (RCA red base, and my previous favorite the Tung Sol 6SU7GTY among others).
> 
> ...


The Elrogs really have no drawback, no weak point, and no real peer. Glad you are enjoying them.

Definitely recommend the 1578 over 1579 as it's the real magic of the 6SN7 family although those Brimars are pretty great.

I'll let you know how the XT goes, however, quad Elrogs are already a real bite. You can run dual pair in single ended but should step down to their SE model in that case.


----------



## normie610

paradoxper said:


> The Elrogs really have no drawback, no weak point, and no real peer. Glad you are enjoying them.
> 
> Definitely recommend the 1578 over 1579 as it's the real magic of the 6SN7 family although those Brimars are pretty great.
> 
> I'll let you know how the XT goes, however, quad Elrogs are already a real bite. You can run dual pair in single ended but should step down to their SE model in that case.


The thing is my Manley only takes 6SL7 and not 6SN7 so it has to be either 1579 or 6N9S.

Keep us updated on the XT then.


----------



## paradoxper

normie610 said:


> The thing is my Manley only takes 6SL7 and not 6SN7 so it has to be either 1579 or 6N9S.
> 
> Keep us updated on the XT then.


EveAnna of Manley told me no restriction with 6SN7. Might double check.


----------



## normie610

paradoxper said:


> EveAnna of Manley told me no restriction with 6SN7. Might double check.


Oh really? I did exchange a couple of emails with her in the past but not about the 6SL7/6SN7. In the articles or publications I’ve read, the SL has very different property from SN. SL is more of high gain low current whereas SN is low gain high current. Perhaps it will work, but with a compromise to the sound?


----------



## paradoxper

normie610 said:


> Oh really? I did exchange a couple of emails with her in the past but not about the 6SL7/6SN7. In the articles or publications I’ve read, the SL has very different property from SN. SL is more of high gain low current whereas SN is low gain high current. Perhaps it will work, but with a compromise to the sound?


I did not clarify with her and it's possible she mistook the pre for the Classic SE.


----------



## alvin sawdust (Sep 19, 2022)

Is anyone here using Living Voice KR-300B, if so what are your thoughts?


----------



## normie610

Brimar + Elrog


----------



## DJJEZ

normie610 said:


> Brimar + Elrog


What you think?


----------



## normie610

DJJEZ said:


> What you think?


This pairing is damn good! I like it better than WE + Linlai 6SL7.


----------



## normie610

@paradoxper Have you managed to listen to the Manley preamp? If not then I think you should do it. It has this feature called ”Direct” mode, which bypasses the output transformer, and supposedly it will give you the true sound of the tubes (I always listen with Direct mode on). I just listened to the TC with Elrogs on Manley, and boy oh boy, it’s uber transparent with loads of details, with more expansive soundstage. This uber transparency and detail is much more apparent on the TC vs CA1a. The difference is much less when I used WEs. 

And when I switched to Transformer mode, the sound becomes a bit more “muted”, airiness is much less, details are still there but not as immediate as Direct mode. 

Knowing your preference for transparent and detailed sound, I think you’re gonna love Manley’s Direct mode with Elrogs. I don’t know whether your Cabernet has a similar feature, if it doesn’t then you definitely have to try the Manley.


----------



## paradoxper

normie610 said:


> @paradoxper Have you managed to listen to the Manley preamp? If not then I think you should do it. It has this feature called ”Direct” mode, which bypasses the output transformer, and supposedly it will give you the true sound of the tubes (I always listen with Direct mode on). I just listened to the TC with Elrogs on Manley, and boy oh boy, it’s uber transparent with loads of details, with more expansive soundstage. This uber transparency and detail is much more apparent on the TC vs CA1a. The difference is much less when I used WEs.
> 
> And when I switched to Transformer mode, the sound becomes a bit more “muted”, airiness is much less, details are still there but not as immediate as Direct mode.
> 
> Knowing your preference for transparent and detailed sound, I think you’re gonna love Manley’s Direct mode with Elrogs. I don’t know whether your Cabernet has a similar feature, if it doesn’t then you definitely have to try the Manley.


Is there a difference in drive between the two modes? Once I settle down the XT tube rolling and sort 5U4G, I still aim to bring in the Manley so this is interesting especially with TC.


----------



## normie610

paradoxper said:


> Is there a difference in drive between the two modes? Once I settle down the XT tube rolling and sort 5U4G, I still aim to bring in the Manley so this is interesting especially with TC.


As I’ve explained and AFAIK, it just bypasses the output transformer so what you hear is the tubes themselves rather than the sound of transformer (supposedly). But maybe others who are more technically competent can also chime in. Or perhaps you can have a chat with EveAnna herself as she’d be the best person to explain the technicalities 😁


----------



## paradoxper

normie610 said:


> As I’ve explained and AFAIK, it just bypasses the output transformer so what you hear is the tubes themselves rather than the sound of transformer (supposedly). But maybe others who are more technically competent can also chime in. Or perhaps you can have a chat with EveAnna herself as she’d be the best person to explain the technicalities 😁


I assume bypass mode is used for speakers so there's a limiting factor when using the headphone output transformer. I'll see if I can't crawl the net for a bit more information but this is illuminating and may speak further to how revealing the Elrogs are.


----------



## normie610

paradoxper said:


> I assume bypass mode is used for speakers so there's a limiting factor when using the headphone output transformer. I'll see if I can't crawl the net for a bit more information but this is illuminating and may speak further to how revealing the Elrogs are.


You’re maybe correct. And since this is used as a pre, then I can switch back and forth easily between the two modes. If I were to use the headphone out from the Manley, I can only use transformer mode.


----------



## paradoxper (Sep 22, 2022)

normie610 said:


> You’re maybe correct. And since this is used as a pre, then I can switch back and forth easily between the two modes. If I were to use the headphone out from the Manley, I can only use transformer mode.


I do like the flexibility. My buddy ordered a Cabernet Dual with headphone output so I'm keen to hear what he thinks using another inefficient planar with CFA3.


----------



## Hiker816

paradoxper said:


> I do like the flexibility. My buddy ordered a Cabernet Dual with headphone output so I'm keen to hear what he thinks using another inefficient planar with CFA3.


Is that referring to me?  If so--yes, I'm more than a little excited for the Cabernet with headphone out to arrive, though it'll be another couple months yet.  And, while a planar is on my purchase list, I sadly lack one in my arsenal now and probably won't be able to add it for several months.  So many great gears and so little money . . .


----------



## paradoxper

Hiker816 said:


> Is that referring to me?  If so--yes, I'm more than a little excited for the Cabernet with headphone out to arrive, though it'll be another couple months yet.  And, while a planar is on my purchase list, I sadly lack one in my arsenal now and probably won't be able to add it for several months.  So many great gears and so little money . . .


It will all come together!


----------



## BournePerfect

Selling my less than 200 hours WE 300Bs at a big discount for those interested:

https://www.head-fi.org/classifieds/western-electric-300b-pair-like-new.32832/


----------



## paradoxper

We're in real trouble. Significant shifts in tonal density and further exploiting staging pretty hardcore. 
Switching out tubes all day as it's difficult to ascertain character development across but getting there.


----------



## Hiker816

paradoxper said:


> We're in real trouble. Significant shifts in tonal density and further exploiting staging pretty hardcore.
> Switching out tubes all day as it's difficult to ascertain character development across but getting there.


That 300B DAC is drop dead sexy.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

paradoxper said:


> We're in real trouble. Significant shifts in tonal density and further exploiting staging pretty hardcore.
> Switching out tubes all day as it's difficult to ascertain character development across but getting there.


I see your problem....needs more Elrogs.


----------



## Gazza

My NOS RCA 5691 (1957 manufacture) just arrived! Plugged them in and am listening to them right now. Completely fresh and will need some time to bed in... but they are great! Very neutral and detailed, simply getting out of the way of the music. I lovely combo with my WE 300B. Still awaiting a pair of NOS Mullard 5AR4 that should hopefully arrive within the next week. Can't wait.


----------



## paradoxper

ColSaulTigh said:


> I see your problem....needs more Elrogs.


More as the solution!


----------



## DJJEZ

BournePerfect said:


> Selling my less than 200 hours WE 300Bs at a big discount for those interested:
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/classifieds/western-electric-300b-pair-like-new.32832/


Selling cause you've upgraded to elrogs?


----------



## BournePerfect

No, I still just prefer the uniquely perfect synergy of my Eml mesh with the Ad2000 on the Studio B. The WEs are technically a bit better though, and I don't feel like burning them to say 500 hrs as many report it takes to reach their final sound. Still hesitant about Elrog longevity vs the others too. Might try Wathen's 300b next once I sell these.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

BournePerfect said:


> No, I still just prefer the uniquely perfect synergy of my Eml mesh with the Ad2000 on the Studio B. The WEs are technically a bit better though, and I don't feel like burning them to say 500 hrs as many report it takes to reach their final sound. Still hesitant about Elrog longevity vs the others too. Might try Wathen's 300b next once I sell these.


I need to get a pair of EML 300B Mesh - do you  have any pics of them lit up by any chance?


----------



## normie610

paradoxper said:


> We're in real trouble. Significant shifts in tonal density and further exploiting staging pretty hardcore.
> Switching out tubes all day as it's difficult to ascertain character development across but getting there.


The R2R will need significant burn in time no?


Gazza said:


> My NOS RCA 5691 (1957 manufacture) just arrived! Plugged them in and am listening to them right now. Completely fresh and will need some time to bed in... but they are great! Very neutral and detailed, simply getting out of the way of the music. I lovely combo with my WE 300B. Still awaiting a pair of NOS Mullard 5AR4 that should hopefully arrive within the next week. Can't wait.


Congrats! Those 5691 are amazing. But it will give you a slightly v-shaped sound. The treble sparkle will be present.


----------



## paradoxper

normie610 said:


> The R2R will need significant burn in time no?
> 
> Congrats! Those 5691 are amazing. But it will give you a slightly v-shaped sound. The treble sparkle will be present.


Oh, it will get significant burn in with great joy. I am still astonished at the neutral presentation but even more at the tonal density and textural improvement.


----------



## BournePerfect

ColSaulTigh said:


> I need to get a pair of EML 300B Mesh - do you  have any pics of them lit up by any chance?


 
Yeah-just close your eyes lol. They barely glow at all out of the Studio. Gotta be in pitch blackness and like a foot away. The driver, rectifier, and blue led are way brighter, which doesn't help. The WE glows way more, and I'll miss that. I'll see if I can dig up a couple pics I took previously.


----------



## Gazza (Sep 25, 2022)

normie610 said:


> Congrats! Those 5691 are amazing. But it will give you a slightly v-shaped sound. The treble sparkle will be present.



Yes, and that's exactly what I wanted. It's a perfect compliment to my WE 300Bs and I must say, everything just sounds sublime now. My system has now reached an equilibrium where I struggle to find any fault. Any upgrades from here on would only focus on improving what's there, not trying to address any issues. I'm very happy.

Speaking of which, my Mullard 5AR4s just arrived:






Way too early to say how they sound.


----------



## normie610

Gazza said:


> Yes, and that's exactly what I wanted. It's a perfect compliment to my WE 300Bs and I must say, everything just sounds sublime now. My system has now reached an equilibrium where I struggle to find any fault. Any upgrades from here on would only focus on improving what's there, not trying to address any issues. I'm very happy.
> 
> Speaking of which, my Mullard 5AR4s just arrived:
> 
> ...


The first time I see Hammond branded Mullards. Give them some time to burn in. They should add a bit of punch and roundness to the sound.


----------



## Gazza

They really need the burn-in, lemme tell you. When I first plugged them in and listened the sound quality went backwards from the default Sovteks. Very closed-in and shouty. Been running them in since and they are slowly opening up. One thing I've noticed is they are very punchy and clean. I also noticed how they make low-volume listening enjoyable.

Hope they continue to improve.


----------



## normie610

Gazza said:


> They really need the burn-in, lemme tell you. When I first plugged them in and listened the sound quality went backwards from the default Sovteks. Very closed-in and shouty. Been running them in since and they are slowly opening up. One thing I've noticed is they are very punchy and clean. I also noticed how they make low-volume listening enjoyable.
> 
> Hope they continue to improve.


Hopefully they will sound good on your system as they continue to burn-in. Definitely a huge step from Sovteks (at least on my system).


----------



## normie610

So the MELZ 6N9S are in (the 6SL7 equivalent), and I’m shocked at how transparent my system becomes. It’s like uber transparent now, not bright or harsh but ultra resolving and heaps of resolution. This is with CA1a though, so I suspect with TC it’s gonna be sensory overload 😁 I also notice the bass becomes faster with less bloom (especially the sub-bass), giving the perception of a tad less bass compared to the Brimars. 

But still burning these babies in, let’s see if there‘s a change in sound. Out of the box, I still prefer the Brimars as they strike an amazing balance of transparency, resolution as well as warmth and that sub-bass rumble.


----------



## paradoxper

normie610 said:


> So the MELZ 6N9S are in (the 6SL7 equivalent), and I’m shocked at how transparent my system becomes. It’s like uber transparent now, not bright or harsh but ultra resolving and heaps of resolution. This is with CA1a though, so I suspect with TC it’s gonna be sensory overload 😁 I also notice the bass becomes faster with less bloom (especially the sub-bass), giving the perception of a tad less bass compared to the Brimars.
> 
> But still burning these babies in, let’s see if there‘s a change in sound. Out of the box, I still prefer the Brimars as they strike an amazing balance of transparency, resolution as well as warmth and that sub-bass rumble.


Those aren't the same as MELZ 1578 with the plate construction although they are pretty good. 

More importantly, I don't see stacked rectifiers. Rectify this immediately.


----------



## normie610

paradoxper said:


> Those aren't the same as MELZ 1578 with the plate construction although they are pretty good.
> 
> More importantly, I don't see stacked rectifiers. Rectify this immediately.


Yes the MELZ 1578 is equivalent to 6SN7, whereas I need to use the 6SL7. The MELZ equivalent would either be 6N9S or 1579 and I got the 6N9S pair. If I’m not mistaken the 1578 or 1579 were made in the 70’s and are deemed to be the best ones from MELZ. I think mine were from 1956. 

And it’s been rectified by not using stacked rectifiers 😂


----------



## paradoxper

normie610 said:


> Yes the MELZ 1578 is equivalent to 6SN7, whereas I need to use the 6SL7. The MELZ equivalent would either be 6N9S or 1579 and I got the 6N9S pair. If I’m not mistaken the 1578 or 1579 were made in the 70’s and are deemed to be the best ones from MELZ. I think mine were from 1956.
> 
> And it’s been rectified by not using stacked rectifiers 😂


I am talking more about the equivalent plate construction. Yours is more similar to the FOTON type. The MELZ run late 50's to early 80's with some difference such as shiny plate vs non, but notably the distinction of genuine articles lies in hole plates, ribbed ledge and steel supports.

Probably best course to check sanity. Ha.


----------



## normie610

paradoxper said:


> I am talking more about the equivalent plate construction. Yours is more similar to the FOTON type. The MELZ run late 50's to early 80's with some difference such as shiny plate vs non, but notably the distinction of genuine articles lies in hole plates, ribbed ledge and steel supports.
> 
> Probably best course to check sanity. Ha.


aahh I see. Well, I’ll just give these some burn in before I go on another hunt for that plate construction 😂


----------



## paradoxper

normie610 said:


> aahh I see. Well, I’ll just give these some burn in before I go on another hunt for that plate construction 😂


I did try the 6SL7 in Freya although not optimized was good. I am not too certain if I've seen the 6SL7 with that construction but Paladin would likely know better.


----------



## normie610

I’m going back to the Brimars. MELZ are just too quick, snappy and precise, they don’t give me just enough bloom like Brimars do. It does suit metal though, as that genre needs very fast sounding gear.


----------



## paradoxper

normie610 said:


> I’m going back to the Brimars. MELZ are just too quick, snappy and precise, they don’t give me just enough bloom like Brimars do. It does suit metal though, as that genre needs very fast sounding gear.


What about the Tung-Sol 6SU7GTY?


----------



## Gazza

normie610 said:


> Hopefully they will sound good on your system as they continue to burn-in. Definitely a huge step from Sovteks (at least on my system).



They are slowly transforming. It's probably now a more natural, "real" sound than the previous showy, "hi fi" like sound if that makes sense.


----------



## normie610

paradoxper said:


> What about the Tung-Sol 6SU7GTY?


Ha! This was my previous favorite before the Linlai and Brimar arrived. I haven’t tried them with the Elrogs though. Perhaps will do it later this week.


----------



## Bonddam

I’m modding the insides on this gorgeous chromed out beauty(Boyuurange A50 mk3. $859 for the amp and $350 for the headphone box from Zynsonix. Internal parts less than $50. Tubes replaced from other amps. I still have to finish 2 more things. 

Besides a slight noise floor it’s good enough for 300 holographic sound. Currently it’s not biasing correctly. So I unplug the power after use. 

Sound is normal 300 unlike little dot 300b which is more linear like a 2A3 sound. It doesn’t have Woo 300 warm bass and mids. 

Little Dot is Good option for $2799 or a cut down version for around $1700.


----------



## protoss

Bonddam said:


> I’m modding the insides on this gorgeous chromed out beauty(Boyuurange A50 mk3. $859 for the amp and $350 for the headphone box from Zynsonix. Internal parts less than $50. Tubes replaced from other amps. I still have to finish 2 more things.
> 
> Besides a slight noise floor it’s good enough for 300 holographic sound. Currently it’s not biasing correctly. So I unplug the power after use.
> 
> ...


Nice!

How you liking the black treasure 300Bs?


----------



## Galapac

paradoxper said:


> With stock issues at PCX, I just placed another order for more Elrogs.
> 
> https://www.mcru.co.uk/?v=2488e4b60dff


Do they ship to the U.S.?
Usually the distributors have their regions but all this Elrog chatter has put them on the endangered species list in the States.

It also appears that there are 2 flavors of the ER300B now, the older design with black plates, and a new thicker nickel coating which doesn’t require the black coating, so now shiny plates.
Purely aesthetic according to Elrog but give me the shiny any day.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Galapac said:


> Do they ship to the U.S.?
> Usually the distributors have their regions but all this Elrog chatter has put them on the endangered species list in the States.
> 
> It also appears that there are 2 flavors of the ER300B now, the older design with black plates, and a new thicker nickel coating which doesn’t require the black coating, so now shiny plates.
> Purely aesthetic according to Elrog but give me the shiny any day.


I've not seen any of the black plate ER300B's.  There are three iterations of the current generation that I'm aware of - The standard ER300B (shiny nickel), the ER300B-Mo (Shiny Molbydium[?]), and the TM300B (Thomas Mayer "Special Edition")


----------



## paradoxper (Oct 2, 2022)

Galapac said:


> Do they ship to the U.S.?
> Usually the distributors have their regions but all this Elrog chatter has put them on the endangered species list in the States.
> 
> It also appears that there are 2 flavors of the ER300B now, the older design with black plates, and a new thicker nickel coating which doesn’t require the black coating, so now shiny plates.
> Purely aesthetic according to Elrog but give me the shiny any day.


They will. Although they are suppose to stick to their region. Thomas notified me, however, the lead-time aren't getting better through 2022. I alternatively have scavenged the world for Elrogs with great success. So get 'em while you can, get 'em where you can.

I have all versions, I believe. I will check the nickel coating which looks shiny.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

paradoxper said:


> They will. Although they are suppose to stick to their region. Thomas notified me, however, the lead-time aren't getting better through 2022. I alternatively have scavenged the world for Elrogs with great success. So get 'em while you can, get 'em where you can.
> 
> I have all versions, I believe. I will check the nickel coating which looks shiny.


Did you get the TM version?  How do they sound?


----------



## paradoxper

ColSaulTigh said:


> Did you get the TM version?  How do they sound?


I am too behind. Quad evaluation first on the XT.


----------



## Galapac (Oct 2, 2022)

ColSaulTigh said:


> I've not seen any of the black plate ER300B's.  There are three iterations of the current generation that I'm aware of - The standard ER300B (shiny nickel), the ER300B-Mo (Shiny Molbydium[?]), and the TM300B (Thomas Mayer "Special Edition")


Original ER300B black plate, early version:





Newer, thicker shiny plate ER300B




From the manufacturer:
Elrog have included a minor change in the ER300B. They switched to a different supplier for the nickel used in the plates.
The plates are thicker and have better thermal properties.
This enabled them to leave out the black coating which they used to apply to the plates. The plates are shiny now.

*In terms of performance and sound they did not see any change in this so it is purely cosmetic.*

If I was to buy a used pair I would want to know this so I would be looking for the newer, shiny version since these are probably more reliable, just something to look for.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Galapac said:


> Original ER300B black plate, early version:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Learn something new every day!


----------



## normie610

Galapac said:


> Original ER300B black plate, early version:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice info!


----------



## nwavesailor (Oct 3, 2022)

Snagged a pair of Elrogs from MRCU in the UK.
Thanks @paradoxper


----------



## JTbbb

I managed to buy a used pair early July, shiny plates manufactured April ‘21. I have looked every day since, and realise that was a lucky find!


----------



## Bonddam

protoss said:


> Nice!
> 
> How you liking the black treasure 300Bs?


I like the Treasures very much as a traditional warm sound with that holographic music hall sound. It isn't in the sound type of Take or new production we300b. It's in the lush group close to EML 300b. 

PartsConnexion sells Elrog which where I buy my caps from for my tube amp. I'll have to save up for some Elrogs.

Today I decided to build Skunkie Design 300b diy amp.


----------



## paradoxper

nwavesailor said:


> Snagged a pair of Elrogs from MRCU in the UK.
> Thanks @paradoxper


That's right!

All is equal in the Elrog realm


----------



## protoss

Bonddam said:


> it's in the lush group



Yeah, looking for that lush perfection now, it will go best with a perfection headphone like Onkyo A800. Distortion smoothness.


----------



## zen87192

Does anyone have a picture of the ‘New style shiny’ Elrog 300B? Both in the the daytime and doing its ‘thang’ (glow) at night time?


----------



## paradoxper

zen87192 said:


> Does anyone have a picture of the ‘New style shiny’ Elrog 300B? Both in the the daytime and doing its ‘thang’ (glow) at night time?


I'm burning mine in currently


----------



## zen87192

Oh... so it still does have the black band? I thought the whole tube was now clear exposing the newly coated and thicker plates... 🤔


----------



## paradoxper (Oct 3, 2022)

zen87192 said:


> Oh... so it still does have the black band? I thought the whole tube was now clear exposing the newly coated and thicker plates... 🤔


It's just a change on the plates. And it's a running change from October 2020. Here is a better pic of the former differentiation that matches my gold base.


----------



## zen87192

paradoxper said:


> I'm burning mine in currently


They look so nice I pressed the button... Haven't even received my Envy yet! ETA 3 weeks. Although not really a rush/rash decision, I'd rather be ready than regretful, as I have the feeling there may be an issue soon to obtain these easily, especiallyin the UK. I will most certainly be listening stock for a while and once the stock signature is absorbed I will 'roll em'!


----------



## protoss

Pictures of 300B Elrog tubes never disappoint.


----------



## ColSaulTigh (Oct 9, 2022)

Did someone say "pics of glowing Elrogs"?!


----------



## normie610

After spending wonderful time with Brimar, now it’s time for some Tung Sol 6SU7GTY goodness. I haven’t used these tubes for a while now, and this is the first time I use them with Elrogs. So far so good, the sound is less raw than Brimar with more sub-bass emphasis. Notes decay stands between MELZ and Brimar, but the detail and resolution are absolutely top notch. Could be my new favorite with the Elrogs. We’ll see.


----------



## paradoxper

normie610 said:


> After spending wonderful time with Brimar, now it’s time for some Tung Sol 6SU7GTY goodness. I haven’t used these tubes for a while now, and this is the first time I use them with Elrogs. So far so good, the sound is less raw than Brimar with more sub-bass emphasis. Notes decay stands between MELZ and Brimar, but the detail and resolution are absolutely top notch. Could be my new favorite with the Elrogs. We’ll see.


I had an inkling the TS would be a great match.


----------



## paradoxper

THALL


----------



## protoss

Impressive. 

You got the Acuhorn R2R XT DAC with 4 Elrogs 😆 
plus 2 more for your amp for a total of 6 Elrog's 

That's on another level 🤣


----------



## ColSaulTigh (Oct 6, 2022)

paradoxper said:


> THALL


The Elrog Gods are pleased with your altar.


----------



## paradoxper

protoss said:


> Impressive.
> 
> You got the Acuhorn R2R XT DAC with 4 Elrogs 😆
> plus 2 more for your amp for a total of 6 Elrog's
> ...


Excessively enjoyable!


ColSaulTigh said:


> The Elrog Gods are pleased with your alter.


I am enlightened.


----------



## incredulousity

I bow down before the mighty Elrogs!


----------



## jonathan c

ColSaulTigh said:


> The Elrog Gods are pleased with your alter.


Altar?  or  Ego?


----------



## jonathan c

incredulousity said:


> I bow down before the mighty Elrogs!


…before Elrogs so mighty, your whities are tighty….😣😳….


----------



## ColSaulTigh

jonathan c said:


> Altar?  or  Ego?


I stand corrected.


----------



## jonathan c

ColSaulTigh said:


> I stand corrected.


….that crazy auto-spell with its independent streak….🤬


----------



## normie610

paradoxper said:


> THALL


What?? Only 6 Elrogs??


----------



## paradoxper

normie610 said:


> What?? Only 6 Elrogs??


I will add the 5U4G.


----------



## karangovil

My humble offering to the House of Elrog


----------



## paradoxper

karangovil said:


> My humble offering to the House of Elrog


Doin' right and with GZ34.


----------



## karangovil

paradoxper said:


> Doin' right and with GZ34.


Good eye! These metal base ones are quite hard to find, fortunately this amp needs only one.


----------



## paradoxper

karangovil said:


> Good eye! These metal base ones are quite hard to find, fortunately this amp needs only one.


Plus they will treat the Elrogs gently and last 50 years.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

karangovil said:


> My humble offering to the House of Elrog


Your offering pleases the Elrog gods.


----------



## karangovil

paradoxper said:


> Plus they will treat the Elrogs gently and last 50 years.


I knew that they last forever but didn’t know about them affecting output tubes. I’ll need to do some reading on how rectifiers interact with output tubes


----------



## paradoxper

karangovil said:


> I knew that they last forever but didn’t know about them affecting output tubes. I’ll need to do some reading on how rectifiers interact with output tubes


It's the nature of indirectly heated with a slow start delay to be more kind to your tube longevity.


----------



## CAJames

paradoxper said:


> It's the nature of indirectly heated with a slow start delay to be more kind to your tube longevity.



Yes. You get the same treatment from GZ32, 33 and 37s. Probably others.


----------



## normie610

Unboxing video of WE 91E amp. Drop dead gorgeous!


----------



## ColSaulTigh (Oct 10, 2022)

normie610 said:


> Unboxing video of WE 91E amp. Drop dead gorgeous!



Looks beautiful!

Now I want to start hearing reviews of how it sounds.


----------



## alvin sawdust

normie610 said:


> Unboxing video of WE 91E amp. Drop dead gorgeous!



Interesting that you can plug headphones into it, wonder if that is just an after thought.


----------



## paradoxper

ColSaulTigh said:


> Looks beautiful!
> 
> Now I want to start hearing reviews of how it sounds.


Yes, and importantly, how it sound with Elrogs. Upgrade that baby!


----------



## ColSaulTigh

paradoxper said:


> Yes, and importantly, how it sound with Elrogs. Upgrade that baby!


Stone cold.


----------



## incredulousity

paradoxper said:


> Yes, and importantly, how it sound with Elrogs. Upgrade that baby!


I'm pretty sure that Kevin will NOT post a video of doing that! 

But someone should.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

incredulousity said:


> I'm pretty sure that Kevin will NOT post a video of doing that!
> 
> But someone should.


That would be me, as soon as I bought it.  Have to figure out how to make them fit though...


----------



## incredulousity

ColSaulTigh said:


> That would be me, as soon as I bought it.  Have to figure out how to make them fit though...


Some cutting of the enclosing mesh will be in order... 

You are planning to buy the WE?


----------



## ColSaulTigh

incredulousity said:


> Some cutting of the enclosing mesh will be in order...
> 
> You are planning to buy the WE?


When I hit the lottery, maybe.  My sights are now on the Red October next...


----------



## MooMilk

Why no love for Svetlana 300B in the main post?


----------



## linshu1992

ColSaulTigh said:


> When I hit the lottery, maybe.  My sights are now on the Red October next...


Red October is stunning. Did you get a chance to try it yet?


----------



## paradoxper

ColSaulTigh said:


> When I hit the lottery, maybe.  My sights are now on the Red October next...


Oh, you should also consider a Trafomatic Stealth, as well, Thomas Mayer is available to build out headamps.


----------



## incredulousity

I love this. It makes my purchase of Envy look almost… rational.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

linshu1992 said:


> Red October is stunning. Did you get a chance to try it yet?


Not yet, no.  I had surgery about a month ago and was unable to head out to CanJam.  I'll keep my eyes open for my next opportunity to check it out.


----------



## paradoxper

incredulousity said:


> I love this. It makes my purchase of Envy look almost… rational.


Where is the fun in rationality. 🤣


----------



## incredulousity

I didn’t mean _rationality_…

I meant _rationalization_!


----------



## paradoxper

incredulousity said:


> I didn’t mean _rationality_…
> 
> I meant _rationalization_!


Sounds reasonable.


----------



## incredulousity

I’m just trying to resist buying the other Elrogs.


----------



## karangovil

I thought you could only get the ER and Mo ones, for 300B I mean. The TM ones are only available with Thomas Meyer’s amps (unless you have special connections)


----------



## paradoxper

karangovil said:


> I thought you could only get the ER and Mo ones, for 300B I mean. The TM ones are only available with Thomas Meyer’s amps (unless you have special connections)


I believe he's talking about the ER which is sweeter than Mo.


----------



## incredulousity

Yes. That is correct.


----------



## senseitedj

It seems that there is a common consensus that the Elrogs are king. I'm happy to believe that, but I am not quite financially ready for a pair of Elrog 300Bs.

Can anyone suggest would be a good in-between from my PSVANE HiFi and the Elrogs for 300B?


----------



## paradoxper

senseitedj said:


> It seems that there is a common consensus that the Elrogs are king. I'm happy to believe that, but I am not quite financially ready for a pair of Elrog 300Bs.
> 
> Can anyone suggest would be a good in-between from my PSVANE HiFi and the Elrogs for 300B?


There's nothing on the technical side that is a real value thief. AN 4300E likely exceeds budget friendly. 

ACME always come to mind when considering banger / actually good. 

The street price for Elrogs are $1k all day. So you should consider WE for below. Western Electrics are a stop gap.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

paradoxper said:


> There's nothing on the technical side that is a real value thief. AN 4300E likely exceeds budget friendly.
> 
> ACME always come to mind when considering banger / actually good.
> 
> The street price for Elrogs are $1k all day. So you should consider WE for below. Western Electrics are a stop gap.


Just save your money and be patient.  More than likely you're looking at a 30+ day wait for them to ship anyway.  Don't compromise.  Buy once, cry once.


----------



## senseitedj

ColSaulTigh said:


> Just save your money and be patient.  More than likely you're looking at a 30+ day wait for them to ship anyway.  Don't compromise.  Buy once, cry once.



yeah, the Elrogs are only a few hundred dollars extra than the competition, so might as well wait!

Speaking of, any thoughts on Elrog 300B vs 300B-mo? I have read that -mo variant is faster, thinner and brighter sounding over the standard. But is it 'technically' better?


----------



## ColSaulTigh

senseitedj said:


> yeah, the Elrogs are only a few hundred dollars extra than the competition, so might as well wait!
> 
> Speaking of, any thoughts on Elrog 300B vs 300B-mo? I have read that -mo variant is faster, thinner and brighter sounding over the standard. But is it 'technically' better?


I can't compare the two - I don't own the standard Elrogs, only -Mo's.  @paradoxper is the pro on that comparison.  However, I would say that there is no "thinness" from the Mo's.  It's one of the main things that draws me away from my beloved KR/RK's or Takatsuki's.  When you combine them with the Elrog 5U4G's (assuming your system can use them), they're heavyweight punchers!


----------



## nwavesailor

incredulousity said:


> I’m just trying to resist buying the other Elrogs.


Resistance is Futile!!!!


----------



## ColSaulTigh

nwavesailor said:


> Resistance is Futile!!!!


----------



## zen87192

ColSaulTigh said:


>


I met her at a Sci~Fi Convention a while back…. She is stunning in person as well as a Borg! 
My Feliks Envy is almost here! The Elrogs are confirmed as enroute to me now. A bit of waiting before I install the Elrogs but am looking forward to hearing what everyone is quoting about them. 🎵 🎶


----------



## incredulousity

I think the combination of the Elrog Mos with the stock PSVane in Envy Performance sounds just a little bit too thin, hot and intense. It's just turned up to "11" on every level. With the Melz 1578, the Elrog Mos are still extreme, but perfect sounding to my ears. I think the stock Full Music tubes pair better with the PSVanes, as do the Audionote tubes. The detailed but very toooooooooby Linlai Elite tubes are good with the Elrog Mos as well, but I prefer the Melz. I have a pair of the Gold lion 300B (almost free from Upscale), which I have not tried yet. Biggest surprise? The stock tube combination actually does not suck.

I'm pretty sure that the regular Elrog tubes will be better with the PSVanes than the Mos. I suspect that the WE 300B tubes will be too tooooooooooby for my taste. Taks seem to be Elrog light, supplanted by Elrog, by my understanding of general consensus. I can skip these last two, though the blue glow of the WE is very tempting.

At least the Elrogs I still probably want are cheaper than the ones I already have!

I probably should cross-post this in the Envy thread.


----------



## paradoxper

It's the Elrog difference. Between the ER and Mo compared to other 300B, there is simply more meat on the bone and better extension at both ends. The Mo has a clear insight when it comes to dynamic response and overall heft, the ER has by contrast the softer touch which is also sweeter which encompasses a less forward push.
If you've heard the 45 tube, Elrogs follow a hybrid trait between it and 2A3.


----------



## Gazza

I can't speak for the Elrogs, but my WE 300B are incredible and were a huge leap beyond the Sophia Electric Princess that they replaced. Can't imagine you being unhappy with them.


----------



## Galapac

My Elrogs arrive today and shall see is they live up to the hype.
It seems well celebrated in this thread.

Is it me or do the Elrogs look like Magnum condoms? 
If the Elrogs are male then it stands to reason that the WE 300B are female with those curves...


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Galapac said:


> My Elrogs arrive today and shall see is they live up to the hype.
> It seems well celebrated in this thread.
> 
> Is it me or do the Elrogs look like Magnum condoms?
> If the Elrogs are male then it stands to reason that the WE 300B are female with those curves...


XXL's to boot.


----------



## nwavesailor (Oct 12, 2022)

Nice!
Glad to see MCRU sent a pair to you from across the pond. I don't want to lead the witness but I think you will be thrilled!!!

My backup pair should arrive soon.


----------



## wjhen

I stumbled upon this thread in Head-fi. I see a great admiration for Elrog 300B tubes. For more than over a year I use the Elrog 300B and Elrog 5U4G is my Border Patrol 300B SE amplifier, I also use an Elrog 274B in my Lampizator Atlantic TRP. To conclude, In all places I can use an Elrog tube, I have put one. Only the output tubes of the Atlantic TRP are Western Electric 350B and the driver tube of my amplifier is a WE417a. The Elrog tubes have replaced my Western Electric 300B, my Western Electric 274B, and my Western Electric 422a (5U4G). 

That is not to say that I do not like the Western Electric tubes any more. Far from it. Western Electric and Elrog are generally after a different type of sound. And my system profits from a little bit of both. 

Western Electric tubes produce  a very fluid, elegant, airy and coherent 3D type of sound. It creates a wide and deep space in which the musical event takes place. All the nuances and microdynamic shifts are there, but you are less aware of them, because it presents music as whole event and not a collection of individual instruments. No other tube (I have heard) can do this as well as Western Electric. It is their unique selling point. 

The Elrog tubes produce a dynamic, clear and immediate sound with incredible bass definition and control. Compared to the Elrog, the Western Electric tubes lack bass, are less clear, have much less control in complex musical passages, and have lower resolution. The resolution part is very important to me. Because to me, resolution equals good tone. It makes it very easy  to hear the subtle nuances of each individual instrument. Instruments sound like real instruments. it is easy to distinguish between different types of guitars for instance. To me, only a high resolving tube can be tonally correct. And to me, the Elrog tubes outshine the Western Eletric tubes in terms of resolution and tone. The Elrog tubes can be played very loud without any listener fatigue because they are so tonally correct. Impressive. 

The other aspect I love about Elrog is the ability to stay in control in complex musical passages. Bass stays defined, and all instruments stay locked in their sonic landscape. It is easy to follow instruments even during complex musical passages. The Western Electric tubes lag a bit behind, are sluggish when the going gets tough..

But, Elrog tubes do not have the fluidity, the elegance and the 3D sound that The Western Electric tubes present. And that type of sound has most certainly its charms as well. 

After much experimentation I have settled for the Elrog tubes instead of the Western Electric tubes, but I use the WE350B and WE417a in places for which there are no Elrogs. That gives me at this moment the best of both worlds. Sometimes I switch between the Elrog 274B and the Western Electric 274B in my DAC. In my amplifier the Elrog 300B and 5U4G are firmly locked. But each system is different, musical tastes are different, and individual sound preferences are different. That is why I concentrated on the differences between Western Electric and Elrog. You can decide whether your system needs more Elrog of more Western Electric. That is it, hope it is in some way or another helpful.


----------



## ARCXENOS

I too, believe in elrog supremacy and await for the day they make a 6SN7 variant


----------



## ThanatosVI

ARCXENOS said:


> I too, believe in elrog supremacy and await for the day they make a 6SN7 variant


Unfortunately this is not going to happen


----------



## EagleWings (Oct 13, 2022)

senseitedj said:


> It seems that there is a common consensus that the Elrogs are king. I'm happy to believe that, but I am not quite financially ready for a pair of Elrog 300Bs.
> 
> Can anyone suggest would be a good in-between from my PSVANE HiFi and the Elrogs for 300B?


Yes, the Linlai WE300B that you can buy for around $600. It is no giant slayer, but is a considerable upgrade over the entry level and affordable 300B tubes. It uses hanging filaments and is voiced more along the lines of the WE300B than the Elrog and should work well with your Tele.


----------



## Hiker816

ThanatosVI said:


> Unfortunately this is not going to happen


Why not?


----------



## ThanatosVI

Hiker816 said:


> Why not?


I asked him directly last week and he won't produce any indirectly heated tubes.


----------



## Hiker816

ThanatosVI said:


> I asked him directly last week and he won't produce any indirectly heated tubes.


That's unfortunate.


----------



## paradoxper

Addressing the 6SN7 craze:

I am getting emails asking about the 6SN7. And I also see that topic on the head-fi forum.

I am sorry but we will not make these. Let me give some explanation why and you can post this on the forum if you like.

Producing tubes is extremely difficult. A layman might think it should be easy to produce such ancient technology nowadays. But it is not. It is unlikely that any new company which does not yet have some production line and knowledge in this area will start making tubes. We have the production capability to make directly heated tubes. Indirectly heated tubes like the 6SN7, EL34, EL84, KT88, 12A*7 types, etc require a very different process and are a different category of tubes. The investment needed to build up a new production line from scratch for these is huge. 

The signature sound of our tubes is due to the use of thoriated tungsten filaments in all types. We are the only producer of 300B variants and rectifiers which use such filaments. When I got in contact with the former Elrog company (before I took over) I discussed the idea of a thoriated filament 300B with the previous owner. I always preferred the sound qualities of thoriated tungsten filaments. The difference this makes is not only audible but can also be measured. Thoriated tungsten filament triodes show a more constant amplification factor independent of the signal amplitude. Oxide coated filaments show a slight compression of the amplification factor as the tubes are driven harder. This results in the fast and dynamic sound with high resolution in our tubes. The motivation behind the development the Elrog ER300B was to get this sound character which is usually only obtainable from transmitting type triodes. The goal was to get the sound of an 801A in a tube with 300B characteristics.

Indirectly heated tubes have a cathode which is yet different and cannot be made with the characteristics of thoriated tungsten filaments. Also the above mentioned compression of amplification factor  is even more present in indirectly heated tubes.

The mission of my company is to make tubes with the best possible sound quality. This is only obtainable from directly heated tubes which are inherently more linear than indirectly heated tubes. And among the directly heated tubes those with thoriated tungsten filaments are superior.

I hope this helps to understand why I will not go this direction and expand the production to indirectly heated tube types. I am the sole proprietor of the company and wish to stay independent. Getting investors on board to build up such a production would change the company and bring pressure for growth and more profit. And any potential investor would most likely not engage if he analyses the market and risk of not getting any ROI. And if there would be a wealthy audiophile willing to do this without the need for profit, there would be other much more interesting things to develop with directly heated tubes. There are still more ideas how to push the sound envelope further.

So if you want to get more of the Elrog sound signature it makes more sense to get an amp which uses only tube types we produce. And if you like the ER300B sound, maybe check out the tube which it is modelled after. Be it old production 801A types and their variants 10, 10Y, VT25, VT62 or of course the Elrog types which are available as ER801A, ER801A-Mo and TM801A. Of course the amp needs to be designed for the 801A.

Best regards

Thomas


----------



## ColSaulTigh (Oct 13, 2022)

paradoxper said:


> Addressing the 6SN7 craze:
> 
> I am getting emails asking about the 6SN7. And I also see that topic on the head-fi forum.
> 
> ...


I think Western Electric might be our best hope for a new 6SN7 (or variant).  Have you been in touch with them yet?


----------



## ThanatosVI

ColSaulTigh said:


> I think Western Electric might be our best hope for a new 6SN7 (or variant).  Have you been in touch with them yet?


I tried, but I never received a response. 

Hope Paradoxper had more luck


----------



## senseitedj

EagleWings said:


> Yes, the Linlai WE300B that you can buy for around $600. It is no giant slayer, but is a considerable upgrade over the entry level and affordable 300B tubes. It uses hanging filaments and is voiced more along the lines of the WE300B than the Elrog and should work well with your Tele.



Thanks for the advice, The Linlai was actually just what my friend recommended as a promising 'in-between'. Glad someone else in the forums feels the same.


----------



## incredulousity

Which Linlai? The Linlai Elite that I have sound great, but too gooey toooooooby at the expense of some detail to the PSVane CV-181-2 (sic).


----------



## EagleWings

senseitedj said:


> Thanks for the advice, The Linlai was actually just what my friend recommended as a promising 'in-between'. Glad someone else in the forums feels the same.


Seeing your location, this friend you are referring to might be a mutual friend. From what I’ve gathered, the Elite 2A3 (by extension the 300B too) can be a hit or a miss, depending on the amp. On a wrong amp, apparently these sound both bloomy and bright. The WE300B clone on the other hand  might be a safer choice. I own WE variants of the 300B and the 2A3 from Linlai and I don’t have any personal experience with the Elite series yet. But some of my friends love the 2A3s and 300Bs from Linlai Elite and Psvane Acme. Although Elite and Acme 300B is approaching Elrog prices, at which point, it makes sense to go with Elrog IMO.


----------



## paradoxper

ColSaulTigh said:


> I think Western Electric might be our best hope for a new 6SN7 (or variant).  Have you been in touch with them yet?


Yes, WE has had beta 6SN7 running for a year with production slated for early 2023. I think realistically, with current supply operation, we should expect a much later 2023 time frame.


----------



## Haidar

I am curious which 300B tube model is the most tubey, saturated, or euphonic sounding with the longest decay?


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Haidar said:


> I am curious which 300B tube model is the most tubey, saturated, or euphonic sounding with the longest decay?


On what amp?


----------



## paradoxper

Haidar said:


> I am curious which 300B tube model is the most tubey, saturated, or euphonic sounding with the longest decay?


Generally Sophia and WE. I'd have an inkling the TJ mesh may be just what you are looking for. Most mesh is what you'd want.

If you aren't tied to 300B, the Perryman 45 is entirely spectacular and a cut above especially regarding a softer touch.


----------



## Haidar

ColSaulTigh said:


> On what amp?


I was wondering in general which 300B tubes tend to have that kind of tone, but I'm tempted by the Willsenton R300 integrated amp


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Tubes are very subjective and sound/performance can vary from amp to amp.  There's a reason most of us tube roll - to find the best combination with our amps, gear, and ears.  It also depends on what you consider the "tube tone" you're looking for...warmth, liquidity, softness, etc.  Can you describe what it is you're looking for?


----------



## 1Audiophool

@ColSaulTigh 
Wonder if you have any experience or thoughts on other 6F8G brands besides Tung Sol that you’ve mentioned? Sylvania, KenRad, RCA …? They are significantly less $$… I assume there’s good reason


----------



## senseitedj

EagleWings said:


> Seeing your location, this friend you are referring to might be a mutual friend. From what I’ve gathered, the Elite 2A3 (by extension the 300B too) can be a hit or a miss, depending on the amp. On a wrong amp, apparently these sound both bloomy and bright. The WE300B clone on the other hand  might be a safer choice. I own WE variants of the 300B and the 2A3 from Linlai and I don’t have any personal experience with the Elite series yet. But some of my friends love the 2A3s and 300Bs from Linlai Elite and Psvane Acme. Although Elite and Acme 300B is approaching Elrog prices, at which point, it makes sense to go with Elrog IMO.



If that friend is from Indonesia, then that likelihood is true. He is looking around for his endgame tube amp at the moment. 

Seeing that the elrogs are around $1400, it may just make sense to just go for that and upgrade once. That being said the re-issue original WE300B is still viable if you are going for a more 'retro' - a more classical tube sound, whereas the Elrogs seem to win in technicalities, dynamics etc.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

1Audiophool said:


> @ColSaulTigh
> Wonder if you have any experience or thoughts on other 6F8G brands besides Tung Sol that you’ve mentioned? Sylvania, KenRad, RCA …? They are significantly less $$… I assume there’s good reason


I have Tung Sol, RCA, Sylvania, and National Union 6F8G's.  All are good, but there are varying characteristics.  The National Unions are the brightest and crispy sounding, the RCA's are more warm and flat.  The Sylvania's are a brighter sounding RCA while still keeping a little lushness.  But the Tung Sol's represent (IMO) the 6F8G sound - wet, slick, rich, with just the right amount of crispness to not be overly harsh.  I have not tried the Ken Rad's yet, so can't give an opinion on those or any of the others out there.  Yet.


----------



## wjhen

senseitedj said:


> If that friend is from Indonesia, then that likelihood is true. He is looking around for his endgame tube amp at the moment.
> 
> Seeing that the elrogs are around $1400, it may just make sense to just go for that and upgrade once. That being said the re-issue original WE300B is still viable if you are going for a more 'retro' - a more classical tube sound, whereas the Elrogs seem to win in technicalities, dynamics etc.


I have to react to this. I should be very careful with the statement a more retro and classical tube sound when you describe the Western Electric 300B. Of course, the Western Electric is the classic 300B tube, no doubt about that. But I think the classic tube sound you refer to is much more related to the tube circuit, the transformer quality and the components being used in the amplifier than to the tube itself. 

I say this because I think you have to watch out to describe the Western Electric 300B as a warm and romantic tube. In my Border Patrol 300B SE it is not. In my amplifier the WE 300B lacks deep bass and as such it sounds a bit more aggressive for lack of a better word than the Elrog 300B. The WE 300B is fluent and has a pleasant sound, but when played louder the lack of deep bass and the fact that it can’t keep up during busy musical passages makes it sound more tiresome and less pleasant than the Elrog 300B.

That came as complete surprise to me as well. The idea that the WE300B is romantic and the modern 300Bs like EML and Elrog are more technical and dynamic (I translated that as more solid state) have kept me from buying the Elrog tubes for a long time. What a big big mistake. As I have said earlier, the Elrog 300B has more resolution and that equals more natural tone. That makes this tube much easier to listen to than the lightweight WE300B. Again in my amplifier. 

But my main point is, when upgrading tubes, listen to your amplifier and try to understand what it lacks, or what can be improved upon in your system. What are you looking for. Based on that you decide what tube to buy. I would be careful with attributing the sound of a tube based on comments of  people who have used it in a different amplifier and system than yours. In such a case only comparisons between tubes can help you a little bit. All in my opinion of course.


----------



## senseitedj (Oct 14, 2022)

wjhen said:


> I have to react to this. I should be very careful with the statement a more retro and classical tube sound when you describe the Western Electric 300B. Of course, the Western Electric is the classic 300B tube, no doubt about that. But I think the classic tube sound you refer to is much more related to the tube circuit, the transformer quality and the components being used in the amplifier than to the tube itself.
> 
> I say this because I think you have to watch out to describe the Western Electric 300B as a warm and romantic tube. In my Border Patrol 300B SE it is not. In my amplifier the WE 300B lacks deep bass and as such it sounds a bit more aggressive for lack of a better word than the Elrog 300B. The WE 300B is fluent and has a pleasant sound, but when played louder the lack of deep bass and the fact that it can’t keep up during busy musical passages makes it sound more tiresome and less pleasant than the Elrog 300B.
> 
> ...



Its hard to sound demo tubes, so you can only make selections based on feedback on the forums and hope for the best. Seeing that my amp is a custom amp that is of a new design, its hard to get impressions from fellow owners, as there only a few of us with the same amp.

I understand that the 300b tubes in question may not sound the same when used with one amp over the other, like your example with your border patrol 300b.

The amp I have has two power supply option. When I use the tube rectifier I would get the more 'retro' sound I described - slow, romantic, lush etc. When I switch to SS PSU, it sounds more like a modern SET amp. I may choose to get 300b tubes to get more of that 'retro' experience, but I am not sure what I am looking for at the moment.


----------



## wjhen (Oct 14, 2022)

senseitedj said:


> Its hard to sound demo tubes, so you can only make selections based on feedback on the forums and hope for the best. Seeing that my amp is a custom amp that is of a new design, its hard to get impressions from fellow owners, as there only a few of us with the same amp.
> 
> I understand that the 300b tubes in question may not sound the same when used with one amp over the other, like your example with your border patrol 300b.
> 
> The amp I have has two power supply option. When I use the tube rectifier I would get the more 'retro' sound I described - slow, romantic, lush etc. When I switch to SS PSU, it sounds more like a modern SET amp. I may choose to get 300b tubes to get more of that 'retro' experience, but I am not sure what I am looking for at the moment.


_When I use the tube rectifier I would get the more 'retro' sound I described - slow, romantic, lush etc. When I switch to SS PSU, it sounds more like a modern SET amp. _Maybe in your case it works that way. But you can create a slow, romantic lush sound with SS rectification, and a 'modern'sound whatever that is, with tube rectification. It depends on the circuit design, the tubes used, transformer quality etc. of the amplifier

My advise with regard to tubes would be, base your try outs on people who decribe tubes not as good or bad, but on a clear (detailed) decription of how they sound, especially compared to other tubes they have tried. Then, there is only one way, try yourself, experiment. That is part of the fun of buying a tube amplifier in the first place. You can play with it. Tailor the sound to your liking. Have fun!


----------



## senseitedj (Oct 14, 2022)

wjhen said:


> I am very sorry but I do not agree with the generalization:_ When I use the tube rectifier I would get the more 'retro' sound I described - slow, romantic, lush etc. When I switch to SS PSU, it sounds more like a modern SET amp. _It is not that simple_. Y_ou can create a slow, romantic lush sound with SS rectification, and a 'modern'sound whatever that is, with tube rectification. Maybe in your case it works that way.
> 
> My advise would be, base your try outs on people who decribe tubes not as good or bad, but on a clear (detailed) decription of how they sound, especially compared to other tubes they have tried. Then, there is only one way, try yourself, experiment. That is part of the fun of buying a tube amplifier in the first place. You can play with it. Tailor the sound to your liking. Have fun!



I am just describing what I hear on my amp specifically, as it does have two, separate, indepenent power supplies and allows me to experiment.

I am not trying to make a generalization that what I experienced in my amp referring to the power supplies applies to all amps because that would be inaccurate.


----------



## wjhen

senseitedj said:


> I am just describing what I hear on my amp specifically, as it does have two, separate, indepenent power supplies and allows me to experiment.
> 
> I am not trying to make a generalization that what I experienced in my amp referring to the power supplies applies to all amps because that would be inaccurate.


Yes my fault. That is why I have edited my response immediately. Sorry.


----------



## ColSaulTigh (Oct 14, 2022)

It's funny, because some amps don't seem to care at all about rectifiers, while others (like my Woo Audios) change dramatically by swapping out rectifiers.

I don't know enough about the subject to speak intelligently as to the "why" - maybe some of the elder statesmen of the tube world can chime in.  @L0rdGwyn @Paladin79 @paradoxper and others are far better at explaining this than me.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

Well there are some things about tube vs. solid state that definitely will affect the sound.  But there is also a very "tube voodoo" aspect of it that is hard to put your finger on.

The most significant different between using tube rectification and solid state rectification is the voltage drop across the diodes (silicon in solid state, tube diode as in tube rectifier).  The drop across a silicon diode is usually on the order of 1V, whereas the average drop across a tube diode is around 30V, but it varies depending on the rectifier being used.

Why is this significant?  It alters the operating point of the amplifying tube in the circuit, which will change their internal resistance, distortion characteristics, transconductance, etc.  So, if swapping back and forth from solid state to tube rectification in the same circuit, you are likely causing drastic changes in in the tubes' operating points.  Of course this could be accounted for by the designer such that there is additional voltage drop in the solid state power supply to compensate and ensure the tubes are always at the same operating points, but that is typically not done, it is usually accepted there will be a drop in the tube's operating voltage when using tube rectification.

Similarly, if you use different models of rectifier tubes, say a GZ34 vs. a 5U4, these tubes have different voltage drops, so again you are altering the tubes' operating points when you swap rectifiers, which will definitely alter the sound.

So what about swapping different makes of rectifiers of the same model, keeping the voltage drop identical and the tube operating points the same?  That is where the tube voodoo comes in.  People will question whether or not there truly are audible differences, of course many people would say yes, others no.  As to why there are differences, it could be material differences in the rectifiers or perhaps the interaction of the audio signal with the rectifier in an unregulated power supply.  But there is no certain answer that I have come across that explains it easily.  It's similar to asking why some people prefer tubes over solid state amplifiers, that there is a "magic" to tube amplifiers.

Two other major technical differences in solid state vs. tube rectified supplies - solid state diodes can inject switching noise into the audio chain, but this can be accounted for using soft recovery diodes and proper solid state power supply design, so if designed appropriately it is a non issue.  The other difference is power transformer ringing - a good power supply will snub any resonances in the power transformer, this ringing can reach the audio chain and alter the sound.  Tube rectified supplies do this inherently - the high internal resistance of a tube rectifier will snub any ringing in a mains transformer.  This is not the case with solid state diodes.  As such, a proper snubber circuit should be applied in a well-designed solid state power supply.  Unfortunately, this is very often skipped in commercial solid state amplifier supplies, as are the soft recovery diodes, current limiting resistance, and other elements of good solid state power supply design.

Anyway, that's the gist of where it stands in my mind.  There are technical reasons for changes in sound, but there is some voodoo around tube rectification too, whether or not you believe it will be up to your ears.


----------



## jonathan c

Thank you, L0rdGwyn.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

L0rdGwyn said:


> Well there are some things about tube vs. solid state that definitely will affect the sound.  But there is also a very "tube voodoo" aspect of it that is hard to put your finger on.
> 
> The most significant different between using tube rectification and solid state rectification is the voltage drop across the diodes (silicon in solid state, tube diode as in tube rectifier).  The drop across a silicon diode is usually on the order of 1V, whereas the average drop across a tube diode is around 30V, but it varies depending on the rectifier being used.
> 
> ...


See, I knew someone in here could do a much better job explaining the nitty-gritty!  Thank you for today's lesson.  Tomorrow's subject will be "Macro-Economics and the Driving Forces Behind Inflation".

Volunteers?


----------



## L0rdGwyn

jonathan c said:


> Thank you, L0rdGwyn.



No problem, I'm always up for a good tube rant.


----------



## paradoxper

ColSaulTigh said:


> It's funny, because some amps don't seem to care at all about rectifiers, while others (like my Woo Audios) change dramatically by swapping out rectifiers.
> 
> I don't know enough about the subject to speak intelligently as to the "why" - maybe some of the elder statesmen of the tube world can chime in.  @L0rdGwyn @Paladin79 @paradoxper and others are far better at explaining this than me.


Audiophiles exaggerate the minute. To a strong degree. To often delusioned measures.

If you ask xyz designer, they'll prudently share rectifiers won't matter, and they shouldn't, not to the nth degree.

They also don't exhaust rolling such as the enthralled audiophile.

If you can't articulate the why in relation to the technical how, you shouldn't worry.
Maximize your subjectivity and personal anecdote with some measure of restraint.

It is the world of audio, including a world of the woo.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

The number one reason to use a tube rectifier is because... they're cool 😎 but in basically every technical sense, solid state diodes are higher performing.  Any technical advantage a tube rectifier might have (i.e., transformer snubbing, lack of switching noise, soft start characteristics) can be accounted for in a solid state supply.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

L0rdGwyn said:


> The number one reason to use a tube rectifier is because... they're cool 😎 but in basically every technical sense, solid state diodes are higher performing.  Any technical advantage a tube rectifier might have (i.e., transformer snubbing, lack of switching noise, soft start characteristics) can be accounted for in a solid state supply.


So if I could ask a follow-up to this - what causes "tube sag", something that I immediately picked up on when I got my first Woo Audio WA6-SE?  Changing the rectifier had an immediate effect on the sound, removing that "out of breath" characteristic.  Is that just quality of rectifier, or something else entirely?


----------



## protoss (Oct 14, 2022)

ColSaulTigh said:


> tube sag


Microphonic, air displacement, compression, decay and bloom. Somewhat in that order causes slowness and all done with voltage increase or decrease.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

ColSaulTigh said:


> So if I could ask a follow-up to this - what causes "tube sag", something that I immediately picked up on when I got my first Woo Audio WA6-SE?  Changing the rectifier had an immediate effect on the sound, removing that "out of breath" characteristic.  Is that just quality of rectifier, or something else entirely?



Tube sag doesn't really exist in these types of amplifiers, SET amplifiers are single-ended class A, meaning the DC current draw on the power supply is essentially constant, which means there is a constant voltage drop across the resistance of the power supply.  By Ohm's law (V=I*R), a current going through a finite resistance will result in a known voltage drop.  If the current increases, the voltage drop will increase proportionately.  BUT because we are talking class A, the current draw is constant and is defined by the DC bias points of the tubes.  Since the current is constant, that means the voltage drop across the rectifier and power supply is constant.

Now, if you look at a class AB push-pull amplifier, once the amplifier enters class B, the current is no longer constant!  The amplifier circuit now represents a dynamic load, the current drawn from the power supply will be variable.

What does that mean in terms of the voltage drop across the power supply?  If the current is changing, then the voltage must also be changing, so the bias points of the tubes will be changing.  THIS is sag, the voltage of the power supply will "sag" (i.e., go down) as the amplifier draws more current, which is undesirable.  This is something that needs to be accounted for in designs that have a variable DC current load.

For single-ended class A tube amps, like headphone SET amps, sag doesn't occur since the current draw is constant.

In terms of what you're hearing when you change rectifiers, it could be as I described in my other post, that the bias points are being altered when you change rectifiers.  A higher voltage drop rectifier might sound "slow" compared to a lower voltage drop rectifier as the tubes are at a colder bias point (i.e., lower plate voltage, lower bias current), which means higher internal resistance, which means a slightly higher output impedance and likely higher distortion.  If you are using two rectifiers of the same type that are measurably identical in terms of their voltage drops, then I have no idea, and I will call that voodoo.  Maybe material differences are causing an appreciable change in sound, maybe there is an element of placebo effect, I can't say for sure.



protoss said:


> Microphonic, air displacement, compression, decay and bloom. Somewhat in that order causes slowness.


----------



## jonathan c

L0rdGwyn said:


> No problem, I'm always up for a good tube rant.


Do you normally rant in 5v or in 4v? How great is the voltage drop after you post?…🤣🤣


----------



## ThanatosVI

L0rdGwyn said:


> Tube sag doesn't really exist in these types of amplifiers, SET amplifiers are single-ended class A, meaning the DC current draw on the power supply is essentially constant, which means there is a constant voltage drop across the resistance of the power supply.  By Ohm's law (V=I*R), a current going through a finite resistance will result in a known voltage drop.  If the current increases, the voltage drop will increase proportionately.  BUT because we are talking class A, the current draw is constant and is defined by the DC bias points of the tubes.  Since the current is constant, that means the voltage drop across the rectifier and power supply is constant.
> 
> Now, if you look at a class AB push-pull amplifier, once the amplifier enters class B, the current is no longer constant!  The amplifier circuit now represents a dynamic load, the current drawn from the power supply will be variable.
> 
> ...


Thx for those explanations. Interesting to read


----------



## jonathan c (Oct 14, 2022)

ColSaulTigh said:


> See, I knew someone in here could do a much better job explaining the nitty-gritty!  Thank you for today's lesson.  Tomorrow's subject will be "Macro-Economics and the Driving Forces Behind Inflation".
> 
> Volunteers?


🙋‍♂️ Preview: demand pull, supply push, excess monetary growth, expectations.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

ThanatosVI said:


> Thx for those explanations. Interesting to read



No problem.  I should probably clarify that sag is undesirable in a hifi amplifier, but may be desirable in a guitar amplifier.  But I am no expert in guitar amplifier design, not something I've read into deeply because... I don't play guitar


----------



## VandyMan

L0rdGwyn said:


> Maybe material differences are causing an appreciable change in sound, maybe there is an element of placebo effect, I can't say for sure.



Placebo is always a possibility, but I experienced the same thing with my Woo WA6SE (2nd gen). Not proof by any means, but another data point.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

VandyMan said:


> Placebo is always a possibility, but I experienced the same thing with my Woo WA6SE (2nd gen). Not proof by any means, but another data point.



Yeah maybe it is the quality of the rectifier, without measuring both and identifying if there are objective differences, its hard to say.  To truly say whether or not changing rectifiers makes a difference, you'd have to find two that measure the same in terms of voltage drop within some predetermined tolerance, then blind test them in the same circuit.  If you are using two different rectifiers that are altering the bias points of the tubes, which is often the case, that cannot be ruled out as the cause of perceived differences if that makes sense.


----------



## protoss

There's also a 5 part series on 'Sag.' If people are interested.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

L0rdGwyn said:


> Tube sag doesn't really exist in these types of amplifiers, SET amplifiers are single-ended class A, meaning the DC current draw on the power supply is essentially constant, which means there is a constant voltage drop across the resistance of the power supply.  By Ohm's law (V=I*R), a current going through a finite resistance will result in a known voltage drop.  If the current increases, the voltage drop will increase proportionately.  BUT because we are talking class A, the current draw is constant and is defined by the DC bias points of the tubes.  Since the current is constant, that means the voltage drop across the rectifier and power supply is constant.
> 
> Now, if you look at a class AB push-pull amplifier, once the amplifier enters class B, the current is no longer constant!  The amplifier circuit now represents a dynamic load, the current drawn from the power supply will be variable.
> 
> ...


In the case of the WA6-SE, it's a single-rectifier amplifier.  The Woo WA5-LE is a double-rectifier.  I have two of them that I use specifically to A:B rectifiers (primarily before I got the WA5).  With everything else being equal, I can definitely spot (hear?) differences in rectifiers, in some cases quite dramatic ones at that (which I assume is variation in the bias points you reference above).

Thank you for the education - I love learning more and more about this hobby!


----------



## ardbeg1975

I don’t get the impression my EC Studio B is rectifier picky but if so I don’t think my ears are up to the task. I can hear the differences between 300B tubes but I cannot I say l heard much swapping between JAN GE 5670s and WE 396As but I (perhaps out of audiophilia nervosa) pair the WE rectifier with the WE 300Bs and the GEs with the Elrogs.


----------



## Wes S (Oct 14, 2022)

L0rdGwyn said:


> The number one reason to use a tube rectifier is because... they're cool 😎 but in basically every technical sense, solid state diodes are higher performing.  Any technical advantage a tube rectifier might have (i.e., transformer snubbing, lack of switching noise, soft start characteristics) can be accounted for in a solid state supply.


They sure are cool, and they also give you another angle to tweak the sound by rolling them.  Being able to tweak the sound from 3 different angles, (driver, power, and rectifier), really lets me dial in the sound just how I want it.  It's even more awesome with my Cayin HA300mk2 having 4 rectifiers that don't have to be matched and I am running 2 of one brand and 2 of another, and I am getting the best of what both have to offer combined.  I have heard just as much difference rolling rectifiers with my Pendant SE and HA300mk2, as I have with power and driver tubes.


----------



## karangovil

ardbeg1975 said:


> I don’t get the impression my EC Studio B is rectifier picky but if so I don’t think my ears are up to the task. I can hear the differences between 300B tubes but I cannot I say l heard much swapping between JAN GE 5670s and WE 396As but I (perhaps out of audiophilia nervosa) pair the WE rectifier with the WE 300Bs and the GEs with the Elrogs.


Craig did mention that using 274B rectifier in Studio B will sound spongy as it has a larger voltage drop although it will work fine.


----------



## senseitedj (Oct 14, 2022)

L0rdGwyn said:


> Yeah maybe it is the quality of the rectifier, without measuring both and identifying if there are objective differences, its hard to say.  To truly say whether or not changing rectifiers makes a difference, you'd have to find two that measure the same in terms of voltage drop within some predetermined tolerance, then blind test them in the same circuit.  If you are using two different rectifiers that are altering the bias points of the tubes, which is often the case, that cannot be ruled out as the cause of perceived differences if that makes sense.



My amp comes equipped with a current meter for both channels, not sure exactly where the current is being measured in the circuit, but changing the tube rectifier affects the current value being outputted. Here is a short list:

Sophia 274B (clear glass version, non-aqua) - 58mA
GEC u52 - 62mA
JJ GZ34 - 70mA
SS PSU - 68mA

Obviously the current measured is just one piece of the puzzle to the final perceived sound, but thought it would be interesting. The amp builder did mention something along the lines that changing out the rectifier affect the bias points of the tubes, which _may _be a contributor for audible differences.


----------



## Galapac (Oct 15, 2022)

Ok, I guess you can count me in as an Elrog ER300B fan.

What I find best about these is both a blessing and a curse.

These are great for all rock/EDM genres as the bass extends further than the Western Electric and instrument separation is some of the best I have heard in the 300B class and that says a lot for a new production tube.
The strength it gives in the instrument separation also can be bad if your recording is not up to snuff.
Many rock recordings suffer from this and now that I can hear the faintest of details it can be a distraction.

That being said, when the recording is good, there is magic to be had as you are rewarded with details you may have never heard before in songs you have heard hundreds of times.
I think if you were going to own 2 sets of tubes, one being the Elrog, the other one could be Western Electric as both bring something different to the table.
The WE are still hard to beat in overall soundstage in my opinion and are best suited to classical and jazz genres as they seem to do a great job in this regard with their light and airy presentation.

I may need to sell my EMLs but time will tell if they can fit into the big league rotation.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Galapac said:


> Ok, I guess you can count me in as an Elrog ER300B fan.
> 
> What I find best about these is both a blessing and a curse.
> 
> ...


Another fine zealot for the Cult of Elrog!


----------



## protoss

@Galapac

Like the way your amp looks. So interesting looking. Halloween and Christmas all in one box 😃


----------



## incredulousity

I’m hopeless. I will buy the WE, just to witness the blue glow in person. Even though the only tubes I actually still need are the Elrog ER.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

incredulousity said:


> I’m hopeless. I will buy the WE, just to witness the blue glow in person. Even though the only tubes I actually still need are the Elrog ER.


"need" is a relative term.  Also, the blue glow is soooo pretty.  Do it!


----------



## incredulousity (Oct 15, 2022)

ColSaulTigh said:


> "need" is a relative term.  Also, the blue glow is soooo pretty.  Do it!


I’ll wait for some used ones to become available. Current ones. Not the silly overpriced NOS.

The Elrogs I’ll buy new. Priorities.


----------



## wjhen

Here is my Elrog'ed system with a small dosis of Western Electric elegance and 3D holographic soundstage....


----------



## wjhen




----------



## protoss

wjhen said:


>


That's a beautiful clean look.


----------



## leftside

wjhen said:


>


Nice DAC


----------



## ColSaulTigh

If anyone wants a deal on a Western Electric 91E:

https://www.usaudiomart.com/details...gn=front-featured-ad-click&utm_term=649889268


----------



## protoss

If only that was for sale last year. 🤪


----------



## Galapac (Oct 20, 2022)

Thought I would pass this on to everyone in the States...my rep from Partsconnexion just told me they have the 300B Elrogs back in stock.
Get 'em while you can...


----------



## paradoxper

No 5U. BOO. I'm getting so mad I might buy their entire stock. LOL


----------



## incredulousity (Oct 20, 2022)

I ordered mine!

They also have a good deal on WE 300B. But I had to choose.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

paradoxper said:


> No 5U. BOO. I'm getting so mad I might buy their entire stock. LOL


Did you call Chris yet?


----------



## paradoxper (Oct 20, 2022)

ColSaulTigh said:


> Did you call Chris yet?


I just sent him a message. They're 4-5 weeks out.


----------



## incredulousity

paradoxper said:


> No 5U. BOO. I'm getting so mad I might buy their entire stock. LOL


What is this 5U? 

One advantage of Envy!


----------



## paradoxper

incredulousity said:


> What is this 5U?
> 
> One advantage of Envy!


One less Elrog is only advantageous to a empty wallet.   

I've checked every single day for these forsaken 5U4G. Grovels.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

incredulousity said:


> What is this 5U?
> 
> One advantage of Envy!


5U4G Rectifier tubes.

Some of us use more than one!


----------



## incredulousity

I was kidding about not knowing what 5U meant. Just teasing that i “don’t need no stinking rectifiers.”

But my ER300B are on the way, so the Elrog gods have again been honored nonetheless.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

incredulousity said:


> I was kidding about not knowing what 5U meant. Just teasing that i “don’t need no stinking rectifiers.”
> 
> But my ER300B are on the way, so the Elrog gods have again been honored nonetheless.


The Elrog Gods smile upon us all!


----------



## incredulousity

ColSaulTigh said:


> The Elrog Gods smile upon us all!


Seriously. Everyone with a 300B tube amp should be so blessed.


Very OT, but perhaps high-yield in this cohort:

I want to buy pretty voodoo SR purple fuses for some of my toys, since PC has a great sale. RTFM is not getting me anywhere. I will want fuses for:

Puritan PSM156
do the iFi SupaNova snakes even take fuses?
Holo Audio May KTE (assume Spring 3 KTE and Bliss will take same)
GS-X Mk 2 (assume Mini take same)
Feliks Envy

Anyone know what these things take (size and rating?)

TIA!


----------



## ThanatosVI

incredulousity said:


> Seriously. Everyone with a 300B tube amp should be so blessed.
> 
> 
> Very OT, but perhaps high-yield in this cohort:
> ...


Usually it's written on the back of your Devices. Pay attention to local voltage, you will need different fuses for 110V than for 230V (just to keep in mind when googling it)


----------



## incredulousity

I don’t want to move the devices until I am replacing the fuses. Trying to be lazy here!


----------



## ColSaulTigh

incredulousity said:


> Seriously. Everyone with a 300B tube amp should be so blessed.
> 
> 
> Very OT, but perhaps high-yield in this cohort:
> ...


iFi Supernova does not take a fuse.

I can't speak to the rest.


----------



## paradoxper

incredulousity said:


> I was kidding about not knowing what 5U meant. Just teasing that i “don’t need no stinking rectifiers.”
> 
> But my ER300B are on the way, so the Elrog gods have again been honored nonetheless.


We are all out of our minds. So much happier for it.


----------



## incredulousity

Totally loving Elrog Mo and PSVanes now that the latter are broken in. No such thing as too much detail. It’s like an elite SS and a top tier reference tube amp spawned a monster!


----------



## Galapac

incredulousity said:


> Seriously. Everyone with a 300B tube amp should be so blessed.
> 
> 
> Very OT, but perhaps high-yield in this cohort:
> ...


You don’t think a $200.00 fuse is going to change the sound do you?
I’ve never bought the hype on these and would rather spend my money elsewhere.
What do others think that have done this?


----------



## nwavesailor (Oct 20, 2022)

No desire to get anywhere near the boutique fuse rabbit hole!

If I did spend $200 for a fuse, I WOULD no doubt hear a difference


----------



## jonathan c

Galapac said:


> You don’t think a $200.00 fuse is going to change the sound do you?
> I’ve never bought the hype on these and would rather spend my money elsewhere.
> What do others think that have done this?


…hearing is believing…I have SRPs in all headphone amplifiers…(except Violectric: fuse is soldered to board 😠)


----------



## ColSaulTigh

I have them in everything.

I hear a difference.  Not as dramatic in the amplifiers, VERY dramatic in the DAC.

YMMV.


----------



## CAJames (Oct 21, 2022)

I'm a big believer in Synergistic Research fuses as well. For anyone who is #fusecurious I suggest this: replace your glass fuses with ceramic fuses that shouldn't cost more than a dollar (euro , GBP) or two. If you don't hear a difference then you are done. If you do you have something to think about.


----------



## Galapac

CAJames said:


> I'm a big believer in Synergistic Research fuses as well. For anyone who is #fusecurious I suggest this: replace your glass fuses with ceramic fuses that shouldn't cost more than a dollar (euro , GBP) or two. If you don't hear a difference then you are done. If you do you have something to think about.


Fair enough. I will give the ceramic fuse a go and see. Thanks for the suggestion.


----------



## Wes S

Galapac said:


> You don’t think a $200.00 fuse is going to change the sound do you?
> I’ve never bought the hype on these and would rather spend my money elsewhere.
> What do others think that have done this?


They are legit.


----------



## Somatic

incredulousity said:


> Totally loving Elrog Mo and PSVanes now that the latter are broken in. No such thing as too much detail. It’s like an elite SS and a top tier reference tube amp spawned a monster!


No fatigue?


----------



## incredulousity

No fatigue whatsoever. This was not the case before the PSVanes were well burned-in. They took longer than the Elrogs. I know this, because when the Elrogs were new, I first tried well broken-in Melz 1578 to compare the Elrogs against my AN4300E. PSVanes also took 200 hours on my Euforia AE.


----------



## Toonartist

I see the Icon 205d listed on the 1st page here but does anyone have any experience with this amp with both standard 300b & 205d tubes? 

I was impressed with a demo of the icon HP8 mkii today but the 205d is harder to come by for a demo.


----------



## normie610

CRBN and Elrogs…..why not?


----------



## rmsanger

normie610 said:


> CRBN and Elrogs…..why not?



Are you happy with the manley 300b as a headphone amp?  Was wondering if it was class competitive as a hp amp with products at a similar price point or if this was primarily a tub pre that happens to have a hp amp stage as a after-thought.


----------



## normie610

rmsanger said:


> Are you happy with the manley 300b as a headphone amp?  Was wondering if it was class competitive as a hp amp with products at a similar price point or if this was primarily a tub pre that happens to have a hp amp stage as a after-thought.


I never use it as a headphone amp (unless on a couple of occasions when I use my LCDi4 IEM), and I believe it’s the latter.


----------



## Somatic

nwavesailor said:


> First off, I’m a 300B rookie, but thrilled with the Elrogs in the Envy. I always thought that the WE would be my ‘real’ 300B pair with a 5 year warranty and being US made. After reading about how underwhelming they sounded by those having both I switched over to Elrogs.
> 
> They are nothing short of stunning snd I’m loving the sound AND the brilliant glow!!!


Did you get the ER or MO?


----------



## nwavesailor

Just the ER


----------



## mfgillia

Looking for some advice on which 6SN7 compatible tubes to pair with Elrog's ER300Bs. I recently replaced the stock Tungsols 6SN7GTB with Linlai Elite E-6SN7 primarily driven by my man versus bee OCD quest to track down and eliminate some intermittent static in the right channel of my Cayin HA 300 MKII.

Happy to report the noise has been completely eliminated and now have a dramatically quieter / darker background. An additional benefit was how much the sound quality and presentation changed. In some ways its more dramatic than replacing the Gold Lions 300Bs with the Elrog's.

As such, I'm now eager to try other options and see which types of 6SN7s my ears may favor. So any recommendations of 6SN7s to pair with ER300B, which would be relatively easy to buy from quality sources, would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## ARCXENOS

mfgillia said:


> As such, I'm now eager to try other options and see which types of 6SN7s my ears may favor. So any recommendations of 6SN7s to pair with ER300B, which would be relatively easy to buy from quality sources, would be greatly appreciated.


I don't think there is just one pair to handle all cases   , tube addiction is real

I also have the LinLais e-6sn7, what sound profile do you want to listen towards to? I know @Wes S loves his RFT, and iirc both of you have almost the same setup!


----------



## mfgillia

ARCXENOS said:


> I don't think there is just one pair to handle all cases   , tube addiction is real
> 
> I also have the LinLais e-6sn7, what sound profile do you want to listen towards to? I know @Wes S loves his RFT, and iirc both of you have almost the same setup!


Yep - tube addiction is rapidly becoming real to me and my wallet. 

I'm not really looking for a certain specific sound yet and certainly not findiing the Linlai's lacking though did notice the sub bass was a bit less pronouced than what I was used to while the presentation seemed more holographic and wider. So for the next purchase would like to try something a bit different.


----------



## Wes S (Oct 29, 2022)

mfgillia said:


> Looking for some advice on which 6SN7 compatible tubes to pair with Elrog's ER300Bs. I recently replaced the stock Tungsols 6SN7GTB with Linlai Elite E-6SN7 primarily driven by my man versus bee OCD quest to track down and eliminate some intermittent static in the right channel of my Cayin HA 300 MKII.
> 
> Happy to report the noise has been completely eliminated and now have a dramatically quieter / darker background. An additional benefit was how much the sound quality and presentation changed. In some ways its more dramatic than replacing the Gold Lions 300Bs with the Elrog's.
> 
> As such, I'm now eager to try other options and see which types of 6SN7s my ears may favor. So any recommendations of 6SN7s to pair with ER300B, which would be relatively easy to buy from quality sources, would be greatly appreciated.


The RFT 6SN7 Welded Plate w/Ceramic Spacers and Dual Foil Getters from the 50's is my number one rec.  They sound so incredibly perfect with the Elrog's in the Cayin, and make the music sound alive.  The bass is something to behold, and is so tight, textured, powerful and deep it's startling at times, and the mids are flat out magical, with highs that sparkle but are still fatigue free.  I really can't imagine it sounding better.


----------



## Somatic

Stupid question but do 300b tubes go on sale for black friday or cyber monday? Elrog ER, Elrog MO, WE 300b .... thanks


----------



## JeffMann

ARCXENOS said:


> I don't think there is just one pair to handle all cases   , tube addiction is real
> 
> I also have the LinLais e-6sn7, what sound profile do you want to listen towards to? I know @Wes S loves his RFT, and iirc both of you have almost the same setup!


Can you please provide a detailed comparison between the Linlai e-6sn7 and the other NOS 6sn7s that you own?

What are the weaknesses of the Linlai e-6sn7?

Jeff.


----------



## DJJEZ

Somatic said:


> Stupid question but do 300b tubes go on sale for black friday or cyber monday? Elrog ER, Elrog MO, WE 300b .... thanks


Would like to know this as well but I doubt they do


----------



## nwavesailor (Oct 29, 2022)

With the favorable USD to GBP exchange rate (and a 10% off box that came up as I was checking out) I snagged Elrog's from MCRU for $100 USD less than current Parts Conexxion cost including shipping. It was a few weeks ago and the exchange rate has changed and no longer as great a deal unless you get the 10% off.

EDIT!!!! I just looked at their web page and they no longer ship outside of the UK ..................


----------



## Somatic

nwavesailor said:


> With the favorable USD to GBP exchange rate (and a 10% off box that came up as I was checking out) I snagged Elrog's from MCRU for $100 USD less than current Parts Conexxion cost including shipping. It was a few weeks ago and the exchange rate has changed and no longer as great a deal unless you get the 10% off.
> 
> EDIT!!!! I just looked at their web page and they no longer ship outside of the UK ..................


Thanks for the tip. Next time. My Elrogs have been purchased.


----------



## incredulousity

The Elrog gods appreciate your sacrifice. ER I presume?


----------



## CAJames

nwavesailor said:


> EDIT!!!! I just looked at their web page and they no longer ship outside of the UK ..................



I was just going to post that myself. Interesting....


----------



## Somatic

incredulousity said:


> The Elrog gods appreciate your sacrifice. ER I presume?


Yeah ER. I can get Mos later


----------



## DJJEZ

Anyone compared elrogs to takatsuki 300B's? I'm itching to try the takatsuki 300B's next


----------



## ColSaulTigh

DJJEZ said:


> Anyone compared elrogs to takatsuki 300B's? I'm itching to try the takatsuki 300B's next


Takatsuki are nice, strong, and clean.  But they lack the weight of the Elrogs, and are probably a bit less warm.  They're a very "sparkly" tube.  Think "Sprite" vs. "Coca-Cola".


----------



## normie610

ColSaulTigh said:


> Think "Sprite" vs. "Coca-Cola".


Both are sparkly, no? 😁


----------



## JTbbb

ColSaulTigh said:


> Takatsuki are nice, strong, and clean.  But they lack the weight of the Elrogs, and are probably a bit less warm.  They're a very "sparkly" tube.  Think "Sprite" vs. "Coca-Cola".


Yep, +1 on that, but the differences are small.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

normie610 said:


> Both are sparkly, no? 😁


Yes, but Coke is a bit more warm and caramel, and has more "flavor".  Sprite is clean and refreshing, but needs a shot of Crown to make it pack a punch.


----------



## normie610

ColSaulTigh said:


> Yes, but Coke is a bit more warm and caramel, and has more "flavor".  Sprite is clean and refreshing, but needs a shot of Crown to make it pack a punch.


That’s a great analogy! 🤣


----------



## Somatic

DJJEZ said:


> Anyone compared elrogs to takatsuki 300B's? I'm itching to try the takatsuki 300B's next


What don't you like from the Elrogs? You have ER, right? Maybe you'd like MO more?


----------



## DJJEZ

Somatic said:


> What don't you like from the Elrogs? You have ER, right? Maybe you'd like MO more?


I like the elrogs I just want to Try all the different flavours of 300B as I have fomo lol


----------



## Somatic

DJJEZ said:


> I like the elrogs I just want to Try all the different flavours of 300B as I have fomo lol


I'm planning on buying the WE 300b as a warmer/tubey compliment. Initially was going to go Elrog MO for a SS ish sound and WE 300b for that classic sound. Was not patient so got Elrog ER.


----------



## Somatic

Thomas should be paying @paradoxper commission hehe


----------



## ColSaulTigh

DJJEZ said:


> I like the elrogs I just want to Try all the different flavours of 300B as I have fomo lol


Hope you've got VERY deep pockets...


----------



## Somatic

ColSaulTigh said:


> Hope you've got VERY deep pockets...


I love this picture. Rifle case?


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Somatic said:


> I love this picture. Rifle case?


Yep.  Harbor Freight.  I use a Pistol case for my 6SN7's and variants.


----------



## jonathan c

ColSaulTigh said:


> Yep.  Harbor Freight.  I use a Pistol case for my 6SN7's and variants.


And a trash compactor for the Philips ECG tubes…😏.


----------



## Somatic

ColSaulTigh said:


> Yep.  Harbor Freight.  I use a Pistol case for my 6SN7's and variants.


Nice. I'm thinking of finding a case that can fit 3 pairs of 300b and 4 pairs of 6sN7s. But something more compact ... hmmmm

Do you know the overall dimensions of the Elrogs, WE 300b, and 6sN7s?


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Somatic said:


> Nice. I'm thinking of finding a case that can fit 3 pairs of 300b and 4 pairs of 6sN7s. But something more compact ... hmmmm
> 
> Do you know the overall dimensions of the Elrogs, WE 300b, and 6sN7s?


Elrog 300B-Mo (and theoretically the ER300B) are 7" tall x 2" wide.
Western Electric 300B are 6" tall x 2 1/2" wide.
6SN7's will vary in height, but are roughly 3 1/2" tall x 1 1/2" wide.


----------



## incredulousity

Mo and ER are geometrically the same.

I now have both.


----------



## ARCXENOS

JeffMann said:


> Can you please provide a detailed comparison between the Linlai e-6sn7 and the other NOS 6sn7s that you own?
> 
> What are the weaknesses of the Linlai e-6sn7?
> 
> Jeff.



Overall weaker bass presentation than most tubes I have. Very sylvania-esque but less sharp to a certain extent.  I basically agree with how @mfgillia described it.

I only have 8 pairs of 6SN7 (not counting ecc32 and tubes that requires adapters), so my experience is limited, the ones that stands out when compared with the linlais are :

- PSVANE CV-181 T-ii, new production pair, has aggressive V shaped sound. Would only recommend if one does not want to get NOS stuff for whatever reason.
- Kenrad vt231, strong bass, basically I would describe them as the inverse of the linlais, but it still has nice tonality and details. IMO does not mesh well with elrog's speed, together the midbass can sound bloated at times.
- MELZ-1578, very well controlled with a balanced tonality, great instrument separation and with good bass presence. Has a light sparkle, enough to boost detail perception, but not enough to get fatigued. Just be aware that they have quality assurance issues. Look it up in the reference 6sn7 thread
- Raytheon VT-231, bass that is somewhere in between the kenrad and the linlais, I perceive them to have a narrower soundstage than the linlais, but definitely can be used for more genres as it is very inoffensive.

I also wish to own a pair of STC CV-1988 someday, maybe after I get a pair of new production WE. Apart from that I think I will be skipping 6SN7 mostly and getting more stuff using adapters instead


----------



## mfgillia

ARCXENOS said:


> Overall weaker bass presentation than most tubes I have. Very sylvania-esque but less sharp to a certain extent.  I basically agree with how @mfgillia described it.
> 
> I only have 8 pairs of 6SN7 (not counting ecc32 and tubes that requires adapters), so my experience is limited, the ones that stands out when compared with the linlais are :
> 
> ...


Thanks - very helpful as I plan my future shopping spree. 

I wish though there were 1-2 clear favorites that have superior sound quality, minimal QC issues and easy to purchase from a reputable source similar to the new production tubes.


----------



## CAJames (Oct 30, 2022)

ColSaulTigh said:


> Hope you've got VERY deep pockets...


Nice. But I prefer to store my tubes like a pro:








(but if I had as many 300Bs as you I might reconsider....)


----------



## zen87192 (Oct 30, 2022)

Here's mine..... purposeful storage cupboard... never mind storing the food..

Only kidding!!! But perhaps one day!

In my dreams!! 🤑


----------



## JeffMann

Arcxenos,

You wrote-: "_Very sylvania-esque but less sharp to a certain extent"_.

What is meant by the term "sylvania-esque"? I am interested in in its overall neutrality and whether it is warm/cold overall. I am also interested in its ability to soundstage well and also resolve micro-details without being over-analytic. In particular, I would like to know whether it fosters the "midrange magic" that 300B tubes are capable of producing under optimum 6sn7 driver conditions. Finally, how does it work with the Elrog in a Cayin HA300MK2 amplifier? I am still waiting to receive my Cayin HA300MK2 amplifier this coming week and I worry that using the Elrog 300B tubes (intead of the stock Gold Lion 300B tube or a WE 300B tube) would make the amplifier sound too SS-analytic and less magically tube-warm.

Jeff.


----------



## mfgillia

JeffMann said:


> Arcxenos,
> 
> You wrote-: "_Very sylvania-esque but less sharp to a certain extent"_.
> 
> ...


To my ears, the Cayin HA-300MK2 with the stock Tungsols 6sn7 and Elrog 300Bs sound pretty awesome coming from a solid state amp. Not overly analytical retaining that 300B sound while benefiting from the full range of the Elrog's and especially that impressive sub-bass/bass that hits so much harder than the stock Gold Lions. 

However, I had to replace the stock 6sn7s pretty quickly primarily because after a few weeks the amp started consistently producing some intermittent, static noise out of the right channel. This lead to my quest to identify and eliminate that noise tracing back to those stock tubes. So if you don't suffer a similar fate then my guess is you will still enjoy the amp quite a bit and not be too unhappy with the stock Tungsols for a few months while looking for something better.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Nothing like a clean, silent pair of Melz to go with a pair of Elrog Mo's to put a smile on your face 😁


----------



## ColSaulTigh

There's still a little occasional crackle.  Let's see if that's just some flux burning off...


----------



## nwavesailor (Oct 30, 2022)

Yeah, the occasional crackle is annoying.
I was shocked how quiet my first pair of 1578 became after reflowing the solder. I was looking for improvement not stone silence! 

Did you use flux remover after reflowing?


----------



## ThanatosVI

Today I pulled the trigger on the Envy.
I will finally be joining the 300B amp owners Club.

It's still ~2 months of waiting time, but that fits nicely with my shedule.

Currently I'm in a state of huge Euphoria, especially since I will be able to keep the Octave V16 and compare them side by side.

Elrogs are obviously on the list but the current budget is sucked dry, these will have to wait for now.


----------



## Somatic

incredulousity said:


> Mo and ER are geometrically the same.
> 
> I now have both.


How’s the ER going? You like it better than MO? Which driver tube is your favorite combination so far? Thanks


----------



## incredulousity

ER breaking in still, but I expect I prefer ER slightly over AN4300E with the PSVanes. 

Mo plus a great NOS like Melz1578 is slightly better still. 

Literally none of the tubes I have for Envy sound bad, in any combination. Something for everyone I’m sure.


----------



## Somatic

incredulousity said:


> ER breaking in still, but I expect I prefer ER slightly over AN4300E with the PSVanes.
> 
> Mo plus a great NOS like Melz1578 is slightly better still.
> 
> Literally none of the tubes I have for Envy sound bad, in any combination. Something for everyone I’m sure.


Ok so I'm not missing much by going ER on the Envy vs MO? ER more forgiving than the MOs?


----------



## nwavesailor

For a tube rookie, you have a ‘starter’ set of tubes that most guys just dream about!

Experiment and enjoy what you have in the Envy. 
You can always drop another $2K and snag the MO’s


----------



## Somatic

nwavesailor said:


> For a tube rookie, you have a ‘starter’ set of tubes that most guys just dream about!
> 
> Experiment and enjoy what you have in the Envy.
> You can always drop another $2K and snag the MO’s


I was thinking of getting the WE 300b next. Something more tubey to play with.

Yes, I'm lucky to play with all these tubes. Thanks.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

nwavesailor said:


> Yeah, the occasional crackle is annoying.
> I was shocked how quiet my first pair of 1578 became after reflowing the solder. I was looking for improvement not stone silence!
> 
> Did you use flux remover after reflowing?


Sorry, I missed this one.

No, I use Isopropyl alcohol and a Q-Tip, then hit them with a brass brush on a rotary tool, then more Isopropyl, then turn them on their end and see if anything else leaks out.  I found hot-cleaning them helps.

I'm on attempt #5 with this one tube.  The other one is dead silent - first try.  This one is just being stubborn.  No more snaps or crackles, but there's a bit of static that just won't go away...


----------



## nwavesailor

I was lucky and my first attempt to quiet a 1578 did the trick. Flux remover may work, even after 5 attempts, but we are dealing with old tubes. I'm constantly amazed when I think about a glass bottle still holding vacuum from the 1940's or earlier!


----------



## ColSaulTigh

nwavesailor said:


> I was lucky and my first attempt to quiet a 1578 did the trick. Flux remover may work, even after 5 attempts, but we are dealing with old tubes. I'm constantly amazed when I think about a glass bottle still holding vacuum from the 1940's or earlier!


I'll get some and give it a shot.  Honestly, I think this particular tube might have a plate problem.  I've managed to get all the snaps and pops out, but that hiss is just persistent.  It's a shame, because they really sound fantastic, and with the volume loud enough, you don't even notice it unless it's a really quiet passage or between tracks.

Oh well, tomorrow is another day.


----------



## protoss

Full review on Western Electric 91E 300B amp on stereophile.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/western-electric-type-no91e-integrated-amplifier


----------



## ThanatosVI

protoss said:


> Full review on Western Electric 91E 300B amp on stereophile.
> 
> https://www.stereophile.com/content/western-electric-type-no91e-integrated-amplifier


From the article:
"Earlier this year, he announced that his company would start producing several other vacuum tubes: 12AX7s, 12AT7s, 12AU7s, 6550s, and 6L6s"

Hell yeah I see my Octave V16 rock Western Electric 12au7 driver with Western Electric 6550s  in the future!


----------



## paradoxper

ThanatosVI said:


> From the article:
> "Earlier this year, he announced that his company would start producing several other vacuum tubes: 12AX7s, 12AT7s, 12AU7s, 6550s, and 6L6s"
> 
> Hell yeah I see my Octave V16 rock Western Electric 12au7 driver with Western Electric 6550s  in the future!


No no. You are lacking Elrog. The Gods demand your sacrifice.


----------



## ThanatosVI

paradoxper said:


> No no. You are lacking Elrog. The Gods demand your sacrifice.


I'm pretty sure I will own Elrogs way before WE actually releases any new tubes.


----------



## Somatic

paradoxper said:


> The ACME are quite 300B in they're very warm with lush midrange with more bloom than a WE -- it's also softer more and more rounded sounding which is more complementary to Tak, KR, Elrog, and AN than the WE or replica which would fit to jazz and fusion ok but it is a hazy tube.
> 
> If it's your first tube, go WE (although the ER-300B is what you want), if you have others, the AN 4300E is the perfect thing.


Hmm, so ACME is an overall warmer tube than the WE? Would it be a better compliment to the Elrog ERs? WE is hazy but ACME isn't?

Can you further compare the pros/cons of the ACME and WE? Looking for a complimentary/alternative tube for the Elrogs. Something with the classic 300b sound. Thanks again.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Somatic said:


> Hmm, so ACME is an overall warmer tube than the WE? Would it be a better compliment to the Elrog ERs? WE is hazy but ACME isn't?
> 
> Can you further compare the pros/cons of the ACME and WE? Looking for a complimentary/alternative tube for the Elrogs. Something with the classic 300b sound. Thanks again.


WE's aren't hazy - they're bloated.  They just sound very soft and tubby, like they're winded.

If you can find them give a pair of KR-Audio 300B "Riccardo Kron Anniversary Edition's" a try.  They're beefy without the bloat and sound very much like traditional 300B's should sound.  They were my personal champions before the Elrogs dethroned them.  YMMV


----------



## paradoxper

Somatic said:


> Hmm, so ACME is an overall warmer tube than the WE? Would it be a better compliment to the Elrog ERs? WE is hazy but ACME isn't?
> 
> Can you further compare the pros/cons of the ACME and WE? Looking for a complimentary/alternative tube for the Elrogs. Something with the classic 300b sound. Thanks again.


While ACME are warm, the WE is even still warmer. Richer midrange presence, more body and density. And bloat.
ACME are the budget recommendation if you won't swallow the 300B cost.

WE is more detailed and present than ACME which doesn't say much. It's why the Elrogs thrash the 300B game. WE300B are overtly bloated and rolled.
They're technically inadequate.

The AN4300E is a closer complement to Elrog as it doesn't concede such a technical gap in performance.

WE300B is the classic 300B sound.


----------



## Somatic

Ok, I don't mind getting some WE300B just to try out and see what the sound is all about. Also, want to experience the blue glow.

@ColSaulTigh I'll also look into KR-Audio 300B but seems if you haven't found them yet, they will be difficult to procure.

@paradoxper AN4300E is a warmer version closer to the technicalities of the Elrog?


----------



## paradoxper

Somatic said:


> Ok, I don't mind getting some WE300B just to try out and see what the sound is all about. Also, want to experience the blue glow.
> 
> @ColSaulTigh I'll also look into KR-Audio 300B but seems if you haven't found them yet, they will be difficult to procure.
> 
> @paradoxper AN4300E is a warmer version closer to the technicalities of the Elrog?


No other 300B has the fluid mid > treble integration that Elrogs present. Natural is their sound.
4300E is not warm per se it's along the lines of Elrog-lite.

I always recommend getting ears on the WE300B for a firm baseline and understanding of differentiation.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

paradoxper said:


> No other 300B has the fluid mid > treble integration that Elrogs present. Natural is their sound.
> 4300E is not warm per se it's along the lines of Elrog-lite.
> 
> I always recommend getting ears on the WE300B for a firm baseline and understanding of differentiation.


I concur.

If you want something cleaner than the WE's (and still get a little glow), and find something between them and the Elrogs, get a pair of Takatsuki 300B's.  They've got some heft and clarity, without the weight of Elrogs.  Once upon a time, they were the pinnacle.  But time and technology have pushed them to the wayside.


----------



## karangovil

Somatic said:


> Ok, I don't mind getting some WE300B just to try out and see what the sound is all about. Also, want to experience the blue glow.


Good to see I’m not the only one WE curious to complement Elrogs. Just ordered a pair for my Studio B last night. PCX has a bit of a Black Friday sale so you might be able to get a good price.


----------



## Somatic

karangovil said:


> Good to see I’m not the only one WE curious to complement Elrogs. Just ordered a pair for my Studio B last night. PCX has a bit of a Black Friday sale so you might be able to get a good price.


I tried buying the WE300b from them before. Won't sell to US. Elrogs no problems.


----------



## karangovil

Somatic said:


> I tried buying the WE300b from them before. Won't sell to US


Just email Chris directly, I’m in NJ and they didn’t have any issues ordering WE300B to US. Might be something weird on the website.


----------



## Somatic

karangovil said:


> Just email Chris directly, I’m in NJ and they didn’t have any issues ordering WE300B to US. Might be something weird on the website.


Ok, hitting him up. What was the price for a matched pair with their deal? Thanks.


----------



## karangovil

Somatic said:


> Ok, hitting him up. What was the price for a matched pair with their deal? Thanks.


PMd you the details


----------



## Somatic

karangovil said:


> PMd you the details


Thanks for your help. Was able to snag one at a discounted price. Appreciate it.


----------



## nwavesailor

Somatic said:


> Thanks for your help. Was able to snag one at a discounted price. Appreciate it.


All you need now is……..the Envy🙄


----------



## Somatic

nwavesailor said:


> All you need now is……..the Envy🙄


Oh yeah, I knew I was missing something. The Envy ... envy .. envy

Tired of waiting. haha


----------



## paradoxper (Nov 10, 2022)

I'm finalizing 300B rolling and have circled back to some AVVT aside from TM, 45 as some of my favorites, I tried to pick Thomas for bits.
Always appreciate the designer ethos:
Hi again,

maybe to give some more insight into this:

Tubes can be operated in Class A1, Class A2, Class AB, Class B.
Then there are different methods of obtaining bias, different forms of cathode bias, different forms of fixed bias and mixes thereof.
Tubes sound differently depending on their load impedance. For the 300B load impedance I have seen vary from 2kOhm to 7kOhm.
Tubes always have some residual gas in them, some more some less. This results in more or less grid current. If that grid current impacts the sound depends on how the tube is driven. It can be from inaudible to very audible.
Then in headphone amps the output can be transformer coupled or OTL.
Tubes can be combined with semiconductors for various purposes.

All these things make a bigger difference than the actual tube itself.

It gets worse for small signals like DAC outputs. There often the tube is used in cathode follower mode. here the properties of the tube will impact the performance in a totalyl different way. Using DHTs as cathode followers has become widespread nowadays. For me that is a waste of a DHT.

And this is just scratching the surface.

I have heard for example amps with the 211 from thin wiry and scratchy sounding all the way to mellow full bodied and musical with lot’s of color.
I have listend to 300B amps which were soulless and lacked color to the opposite.
Also a 45 mesh which you seem to like so much can sound this way if not treated correctly.

And I did not even start to talk about the filament supply. Especially thoriated filaments act very sensitive to the filament supply and this can alter the sound quite a lot.

That is why I never discuss the sound of the tubes themselves as it is always the package.

And it is my belief that when an amp is really good you will not have the urge to roll tubes but enjoy.

If I am listening to what a tube does in terms of sound, I am comparing different classes of tubes:

Pentodes vs triodes
directly heated vs indirectly heated
triodes with oxide coated filaments vs thoriated tungsten
Construction differences: Different plate materials, or electrode structure (as we did with TM vs ER)

I never listen to brands to determine a brand sound.

And lastly to judge a sound it would be important to measure the tube as well. Grid current can vary from sample to sample in the same brand (we strictly monitor grid current and dismiss anything with more than 200nA, I have seen other 300B tubes with 10 times that grid current). Linearity of the tubes can also vary from sample to sample and should be checked on a curve tracer before judging on how it sounds

So if you really want to build an understanding of what a tube does it takes much more than just rolling different tubes and then based on what you hear label them with a sound character.

In tubes I generally prefer:
Triodes over pentodes
and in triodes: directly heated over indirectly heated
and in DHTs: thoriated tungsten over oxide coated
That is why the ER300B is modelled after tubes like the 10Y and 801A
Then there is different plate materials:
Graphite, nickel, molybdenum with the latter having the best properties.
We might experiment with gold plated nickel plates too as this possibly might be better than molybdenum
Mesh plates have the drawback of lowering the max plate dissipation. While not much an issue with small tubes like the 45 it is difficult in the 300B. That’s why many mesh 300Bs spec a lower plate dissipation.

Pre-Elrog philosophy:
https://vinylsavor.blogspot.com/2014/10/the-sound-of-tube.html

https://vinylsavor.blogspot.com/2013/11/6cb5a-sound-integrated-vs-no-compromise.html

http://vinylsavor.blogspot.com/2011/05/how-does-it-sound.html

http://vinylsavor.blogspot.com/2012/06/how-does-it-sound-part-2.html

http://vinylsavor.blogspot.com/2012/09/how-does-it-sound-part-3.html

And some technical aspects:

http://vinylsavor.blogspot.com/2011/01/search-for-that-magical-operating-point.html

http://vinylsavor.blogspot.com/2011/01/gain-headroom-and-power.html


----------



## lumdicks

I have stopped my tube rolling for almost 3 months with my ER300B.


----------



## protoss

lumdicks said:


> I have stopped my tube rolling for almost 3 months with my ER300B.


What a great looking amp! 
Legendary Fostex


----------



## leftside

paradoxper said:


> I'm finalizing 300B rolling and have circled back to some AVVT aside from TM, 45 as some of my favorites, I tried to pick Thomas for bits.
> Always appreciate the designer ethos:
> Hi again,
> 
> ...


Very good. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## Somatic

Anyone using tube dampers? Covers the pretty tubes, but seems a lot of people like them.

https://herbiesaudiolab.com/collections/tube-dampers


----------



## paradoxper

Somatic said:


> Anyone using tube dampers? Covers the pretty tubes, but seems a lot of people like them.
> 
> https://herbiesaudiolab.com/collections/tube-dampers


They're the devil. Unless you have an intruding source of noise.

I am of the belief to some extent the sound of these tubes is what they are due to the microphonic nature of their design.
This is especially evident with the 45 and fragile nature of the mesh plates and their entirely alive sound characteristics.

Easy enough to try without offense.


----------



## Wes S (Nov 10, 2022)

paradoxper said:


> They're the devil. Unless you have an intruding source of noise.
> 
> I am of the belief to some extent the sound of these tubes is what they are due to the microphonic nature of their design.
> This is especially evident with the 45 and fragile nature of the mesh plates and their entirely alive sound characteristics.
> ...


Ditto.  I am a firm believer in letting the tubes breathe, and do their natural thing.


----------



## rangerid (Nov 10, 2022)

Somatic said:


> Anyone using tube dampers? Covers the pretty tubes, but seems a lot of people like them.
> 
> https://herbiesaudiolab.com/collections/tube-dampers


I was actually looking at these as well and considering getting some for my ARC preamp. The stock tubes mine came with generic double, black rubber rings about 1/3rd of the way down the tubes. I don't see this talked a lot but you want to place the dampers as high on the tubes as possible without it falling off, I did that with the stock dampers on mine and was quite noticeable, as well as no dampers which wasn't as good. Placing it further down the tubes will tighten up the sound (solid state like) and suck some of the tube 'magic/bloom' out. It's pretty neat since it gives you another tweak to play around with and customize/personalize the sound to your liking.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

If anyone is looking for a pair of Takatsuki 300B and don't fear angering the Elrog Gods...

https://www.head-fi.org/classifieds/takatsuki-ta-300b-matched-pair.36202/


----------



## ThanatosVI

ColSaulTigh said:


> If anyone is looking for a pair of Takatsuki 300B and don't fear angering the Elrog Gods...
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/classifieds/takatsuki-ta-300b-matched-pair.36202/


Well at that price one can get new Elrogs or WE 300Bs

Good luck to the seller but personally I'd take the Money for a pair of New tubes


----------



## ColSaulTigh

ThanatosVI said:


> Well at that price one can get new Elrogs or WE 300Bs
> 
> Good luck to the seller but personally I'd take the Money for a pair of New tubes


I mentioned that to him.  He's open to offers.


----------



## incredulousity

You can get them new for almost that at PartsConnexon. $1-1.1k would be more appropriate, for a nicely broken in set.


----------



## DJJEZ

incredulousity said:


> You can get them new for almost that at PartsConnexon. $1-1.1k would be more appropriate, for a nicely broken in set.


was thinking exactly the same


----------



## CopperFox

Hmm I'll be having a 300B amplifier soon... the Raphaelite CK300 which was/is for sale at Hifi Exquis AE store for ~$1800 plus shipping (~$120) and taxes.

As a person who has been called a basshead by at least one Head-fi member, I am now wondering which tubes would have the best bass and sub-bass in particular.

For reasons unknown to me, most of the summit-fi crowd seems to be gravitated toward a mid-forward sound, or at least have most interest in what happens in/with the mids. Maybe this will happen to me as well at some point. Things like installing AC filtering components may have such effect.

The amp apparently comes with some PSVane tubes. Having previously been a fan of the Shuguang T-series, I'll likely get those or the Linlai equivalent unless otherwise advised.


----------



## ThanatosVI

CopperFox said:


> As a person who has been called a basshead by at least one Head-fi member, I am now wondering which tubes would have the best bass and sub-bass in particular.


Personally I think those would be the KT88-KT150 family.


----------



## paradoxper

ThanatosVI said:


> Personally I think those would be the KT88-KT150 family.


I think re-framing may be required. What does a qualified basshead consider good bass as?
If he's a basshead by Tres standard, I am likely to parallel that to LCD-4, which may couple him to something like WE300B.

But by technicality, the Mo by fair margin will flex on most other DHT.


----------



## CopperFox

paradoxper said:


> I think re-framing may be required. What does a qualified basshead consider good bass as?
> If he's a basshead by Tres standard, I am likely to parallel that to LCD-4, which may couple him to something like WE300B.
> 
> But by technicality, the Mo by fair margin will flex on most other DHT.



Well, first and foremost, good bass extension. In my ears bass doesn't really sound good without that.

Then the ability to have good detail and definition in the entire 20hz to 400hz region. Texture, tactility, impact, some warmth.  Both the bass hit and what comes after that. Sub-bass detail not only in general rumble-ability but also in more quietly oscillating sub-bass.

Warmth and impact/slam are both easy to overdo in various ways that would lead to loss of detail elsewhere. 

Headphone type would also naturally have an effect. I generally prefer planars which have a higher need for current as opposed to dynamics which benefit more from voltage. Headphone impedance also plays a role but maybe I'll not get into that here.

In other tubes Tung-Sol and Shuguang have been my favourite bands. Some Mullards, Ken-Rads and PSVane have been nice too. Don't know if any of those US brands ever made 300B tubes.

In considering the choice of 300B tubes, cost would also be something I would want to take into account. I might not be getting the most expensive ones right away, but would still be interested in hearing about their properties, as well as those of tubes in different price ranges. There have been some posts related to that such as this and this.

Curiously, practically all the Chinese manufacturers seem to have a "WE300B Replica" model. Wonder if anyone's done any comparison of those.


----------



## paradoxper

CopperFox said:


> Well, first and foremost, good bass extension. In my ears bass doesn't really sound good without that.
> 
> Then the ability to have good detail and definition in the entire 20hz to 400hz region. Texture, tactility, impact, some warmth.  Both the bass hit and what comes after that. Sub-bass detail not only in general rumble-ability but also in more quietly oscillating sub-bass.
> 
> ...


You are going to contend against bloom richness particularly through midbass with almost all 300B. 
At the same time, the only purist bass monster phones are 1266 and HE-6, the others have a varied bloat or rolled response.
Not of that JVC skull rattle variety. 

You need to follow your driver to pair with the fitting output complement. Which brings the crux, that the 300B game isn't one to cheap out on. The only sub $1k tube that is acceptable is the ACME. Even at the top end, the WE 300B is quite rolled and too heavy from the midrange down to midbass.

If you listen to anything modern the only choice is the ER300B as it's so well extended at both ends. 4300E to some less degree could work and anything of WE300B, you are going to be making quite large concessions.


----------



## CopperFox

paradoxper said:


> You are going to contend against bloom richness particularly through midbass with almost all 300B.
> At the same time, the only purist bass monster phones are 1266 and HE-6, the others have a varied bloat or rolled response.
> Not of that JVC skull rattle variety.
> 
> ...



Hmm I wouldn't think purity is something that would be found in frequency response. I would prefer something that is close to the Harman target but not neccessarily exactly on it. That curve is an approximation based on many people's preferences. Depending on a particular headphone's charateristics, it is possible a deviation from that (or any other) target may improve sound.

Of the Shuguang T-series 300B tubes, it was described here by @protoss as "Dark, bassy, rich body sound. <- might be muddy at first but its complex. Detail is there."

Those are the characteristics that I like about the black and gold SG T-series and what I'd expect from them. Bassy, weighty but yet detailed sounding albeit slightly dark-ish.
I'm thinking I'll get those first as they are something that I'm kind of familiar with, and then something else too.

This has however now been complicated by the fact that there's not only the Shuguang 300B-T and similarly styled Linlai 300B-T, but also Shuguang 6300B-TA and Shuguang 52B-TA in the T-series that are 300B compatible.

The 6300B-TA is_ physically_ more V-shaped that the 300B-T, and the 52B-TA seems to have similar construction as the Emission Labs 520B. The 52B-TA is also available without the TA designation, as Shuguang 52B, which does not have the black coating on the tube.








These are larger than 300Bs. Would be cool to have such huge tubes with the black and gold colour scheme  such as on this here amplifier





They are not cheap tubes however at ~$700 for a pair.


@protoss , how would you compare the SG 300B-Ts to the Elrogs, particulary on bass and note weight/body?


----------



## ColSaulTigh

The Emission Labs 520B tubes are HUGE!

For comparison:


----------



## paradoxper

CopperFox said:


> Hmm I wouldn't think purity is something that would be found in frequency response. I would prefer something that is close to the Harman target but not neccessarily exactly on it. That curve is an approximation based on many people's preferences. Depending on a particular headphone's charateristics, it is possible a deviation from that (or any other) target may improve sound.
> 
> Of the Shuguang T-series 300B tubes, it was described here by @protoss as "Dark, bassy, rich body sound. <- might be muddy at first but its complex. Detail is there."
> 
> ...


You will have to buy the SG300B and judge yourself. 
There's no way I'd ever use the SG as that mud pollutes the minutiae which is where greater gains are differentiated.


----------



## Somatic (Nov 21, 2022)

I'm sure you guys saw this ... interesting 



Edit: Lot of fluff talk. Just sales speak. Seems chill but not sure about the BT and Ethernet. Also seems like only the WE300b tubes work on it which displeases the Elrog GODS !


----------



## incredulousity

With modification, Elrogs would work just fine. Silly that they cover the space above the 300B tubes, even though it is pretty. Elrog gods will smite WE.


----------



## JeffMann

I have a couple of questions regarding the Elrog ER300B tubes, which cost ~$1,300 for a matched pair. 

1) What is their expected lifespan in terms of hours of use?

2) If one of the matched pair of Elrog ER300B tubes prematurely fails, how does one get a single tube replacement that will be perfectly matched relative to the remaining single 300B tube?

Jeff.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

JeffMann said:


> I have a couple of questions regarding the Elrog ER300B tubes, which cost ~$1,300 for a matched pair.
> 
> 1) What is their expected lifespan in terms of hours of use?
> 
> ...


1) 10,000+ hours
2) They will only replace one tube.  So if one dies in a pair, you only get 1 replaced.  You'd have to buy a second single tube and keep the original orphan as a spare (or sell it).


----------



## ThanatosVI (Nov 26, 2022)

JeffMann said:


> I have a couple of questions regarding the Elrog ER300B tubes, which cost ~$1,300 for a matched pair.
> 
> 1) What is their expected lifespan in terms of hours of use?
> 
> ...


Thomas reached out to me to share this information regarding warranty and lifetime. So here is the official answer:

"If a tube fails under warranty, we ask for the pair to be sent back to us for inspection. If the working tube is found in good condition a matching tube will be selected from our stock. Matching will be done with a curve tracer for identical plate curves. In case no matching tube is in stock a new matched pair will be provided on warranty.

So people should not be worried about having a mismatched pair.

Although the ER300B is usually on a long lead-time, we always keep some emergency stock for warranty replacements to avoid long waiting time for customers with a warranty case. Warranty cases are handled immediately so only the shipping time has to be waited (which can be 1-2 weeks each way depending on destination due to long shipping these times and customs processing).

We are usually very courteous in warranty cases and in case of doubt decide in favour of the customer. If a tube fails within some time after warranty we try to find an amicable solution by offering a replacement tube at a substantial discount. This is always decided on a case by case basis and on the information we get how and in which amplifier the tubes have been used.

Warranty is only granted for tubes which are bought from an authorised dealer in the respective area or directly from us. Grey imports are not warranted.
This is simply to avoid that people try to circumvent VAT which usually has to be paid by the local dealer. In case of doubt if the dealer is legit, simply ask me.

Warranty cases are always handled through the dealer you bought from who then ships the tubes to us for inspection.

There are also remarks about the expected lifespan. We do not publish an expected lifespan since it depends an a lot of variables.

- Operating conditions in the amplifier
- Inrush current from the filament supplies
- Type of filament supply
- Air flow around the tubes
- Usage pattern

Depending on that the lifespan can vary from less than a 1000 hrs to multiple 10000s.

It is similar as with tyres on your car, no tyre manufacturer will give an average mileage you can expect because it depends on the car and how you drive.

Unfortunately there are quite a lot of amplifiers on the market which stress the tubes to squeeze out the maximum power. We have also seen many amps without any limiting of the filament current. Filaments are almost a short when cold and if the power supply does not limit the current there can be 10A current peaks at turn on which weaken the filaments over time and cause them to break. Also the type of filament supply is important. We have seen filament supplies which tend to overheat the tubes (especially current source supplies). Also underheating shortens lifetime. Some amp manufacturers think undercoating extends lifetime but that is not true. The emission will drop in that case since not enough thorium is replenished to the filament surface when not heated properly. Fortunately if this happens life can be fully restored by operating the tube normally for a few hours.

Not to be neglected is the usage pattern: Frequent on/off cycles during a day are not healthy for the tube.
Also much care is to be observed when changing tubes. The filaments get very brittle after a few hundred hours of usage and can easily break when exposed to mechanical shocks. This is also the main reason why we only grant warranty to the first buyer. Simply because most people do not pack the tubes careful enough when shipping them which can cause the filaments to break. When shipping tubes a minimum of 2-3 of padding by bubble wrap or similar is needed around the original tube box for safe shipping.

As has been stated: If there is a manufacturing defect it usually shows within the first 100 hours. After that it can be expected that the tubes lives its regular lifespan if treated gently. I know many people do not like to hear this but you get the most from the tubes if you leave them plugged into the amp and enjoy them. If you have to remove them, be very gentle. let them cool down completely and avoid mechanical shocks.

I have also read that some amps are shipped with the tubes plugged in. This is a very bad idea IMHO and if you need to ship your amp and use Elrog tubes, remove them and ship them in their original carton with lots of bubble wrap applied around the tube box and in a separate outer box

Hope this helps to clear things up. I am always available for questions

Thomas"


----------



## ColSaulTigh

ThanatosVI said:


> Thomas reached out to me to share this information regarding warranty and lifetime. So here is the official answer:
> 
> "If a tube fails under warranty, we ask for the pair to be sent back to us for inspection. If the working tube is found in good condition a matching tube will be selected from our stock. Matching will be done with a curve tracer for identical plate curves. In case no matching tube is in stock a new matched pair will be provided on warranty.
> 
> ...


That's good to know!  Most tube manufacturers just replace the one tube and say "here you go", so that's a very impressive policy.

Yet another reason to worship the Elrog Gods!


----------



## mfgillia

ThanatosVI said:


> Thomas reached out to me to share this information regarding warranty and lifetime. So here is the official answer:
> 
> "If a tube fails under warranty, we ask for the pair to be sent back to us for inspection. If the working tube is found in good condition a matching tube will be selected from our stock. Matching will be done with a curve tracer for identical plate curves. In case no matching tube is in stock a new matched pair will be provided on warranty.
> 
> ...


Awesome post - lots of good information in there.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Although this my anger the Elrog Gods, I have to show off my latest acquisition - the Emission Labs 300B Mesh tubes!

Not bad, but certainly not Elrogs.  But they sure are pretty in the dark...


----------



## ThanatosVI

ColSaulTigh said:


> Although this my anger the Elrog Gods, I have to show off my latest acquisition - the Emission Labs 300B Mesh tubes!
> 
> Not bad, but certainly not Elrogs.  But they sure are pretty in the dark...


May they never break!


----------



## ColSaulTigh

ThanatosVI said:


> May they never break!


They'll stay in the amp for a few days then get relegated back to the case where they belong.  Elrogs are still the sound performance champs!


----------



## incredulousity

You know, the Elrog gods want you to buy the ER300B as well. It’s different enough from Mo to be worth it, especially if you want to run it with cheap drivers.


----------



## ColSaulTigh (Nov 28, 2022)

incredulousity said:


> You know, the Elrog gods want you to buy the ER300B as well. It’s different enough from Mo to be worth it, especially if you want to run it with cheap drivers.


That may well be the next set I get.  I've been kinda waiting for @paradoxper to get bored with his TM's...


----------



## incredulousity

He won’t, but maybe he can hook us up at a future time.


----------



## paradoxper

ColSaulTigh said:


> That may well be the next set I get.  I've been kinda waiting for @paradoxper to get bored with his TM's...


You will die of old age well before.


----------



## protoss

ColSaulTigh said:


> Although this my anger the Elrog Gods, I have to show off my latest acquisition - the Emission Labs 300B Mesh tubes!
> 
> Not bad, but certainly not Elrogs.  But they sure are pretty in the dark...



Looks amazing 👏  

I was thinking getting the EML mesh. Have the standard version, so maybe not. The standard version just perfectly balance my headphones the way I like it.
Gives a organic neutral presentation


----------



## protoss

I wish it was a bit shiny  ✨️ 😜


----------



## ColSaulTigh

protoss said:


> Looks amazing 👏
> 
> I was thinking getting the EML mesh. Have the standard version, so maybe not. The standard version just perfectly balance my headphones the way I like it.
> Gives a organic neutral presentation


I'll try to get a better picture - basic camera phone while hand-holding isn't doing the blue glow justice.

As for the sound - having the Elrog 300B-Mo's have spoiled me.  Everything else sounds like lifeless mush in comparison.  I bought these because I've been on the hunt for a while to add them to the collection (long before the Elrogs even hit the scene).  So when they popped up, I had to snag them.  They have the typical EML sound - warm, toasty, soft.


----------



## protoss

ColSaulTigh said:


> They have the typical EML sound - warm, toasty, soft.


Yeah, that's a great description. 
Toasty, in a soft warm way is what I am getting. It's very nice. 😀


----------



## paradoxper

Closing on the month and PXC dropped the ball on the 5U. I'd be good with a new US distributor. Grievance. I can also simply wait.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

paradoxper said:


> Closing on the month and PXC dropped the ball on the 5U. I'd be good with a new US distributor. Grievance. I can also simply wait.


I don't actually know of any others in the US, but wasn't there one in the UK that shipped over here and was fairly reasonable price-wise?  I'll have to look when I get home.


----------



## paradoxper

ColSaulTigh said:


> I don't actually know of any others in the US, but wasn't there one in the UK that shipped over here and was fairly reasonable price-wise?  I'll have to look when I get home.


This was grey-market as they are encouraged to stick to their assigned region.


----------



## Hiker816

paradoxper said:


> Closing on the month and PXC dropped the ball on the 5U. I'd be good with a new US distributor. Grievance. I can also simply wait.


Same for me--my 300B-Mo pair arrived this week (preordered about a month and a half ago from PXC), but the 5U4G I ordered at the same time is nowhere to be found.  I shouldn't complaint much about the 5U4G, though, since my preamp is still being built with no clear indication on when it'll be done.  Alas.  No way to use the Elrogs right now anyway.


----------



## paradoxper

Hiker816 said:


> Same for me--my 300B-Mo pair arrived this week (preordered about a month and a half ago from PXC), but the 5U4G I ordered at the same time is nowhere to be found.  I shouldn't complaint much about the 5U4G, though, since my preamp is still being built with no clear indication on when it'll be done.  Alas.  No way to use the Elrogs right now anyway.


It's better for you as it's gonna get real good real fast when it's time.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

paradoxper said:


> It's better for you as it's gonna get real good real fast when it's time.


----------



## paradoxper

ColSaulTigh said:


>


Needs more Elrog! 

You have nothing to complain about.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

paradoxper said:


> Needs more Elrog!
> 
> You have nothing to complain about.


Those dinky ones in the middle aren't Elrogs....yet.


----------



## paradoxper

ColSaulTigh said:


> Those dinky ones in the middle aren't Elrogs....yet.


Ha. I meant you need a DHT DAC.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

paradoxper said:


> Ha. I meant you need a DHT DAC.


Oh yes, tube R2R DAC is next on the list.


----------



## paradoxper

ColSaulTigh said:


> Oh yes, tube R2R DAC is next on the list.


I'll take an Elrog chip, might as well. 

Grab my XT as I move to the Lampizator Pacific.


----------



## incredulousity

I have a buddy who fantasizes about modding an Envy with tube rectification. Clearly would have to be Elrog.


----------



## leftside

paradoxper said:


> I'll take an Elrog chip, might as well.
> 
> Grab my XT as I move to the Lampizator Pacific.


That's going to be quite the setup you're going to have. I have the Lampi GA and Lampi GA TRP.


----------



## paradoxper

leftside said:


> That's going to be quite the setup you're going to have. I have the Lampi GA and Lampi GA TRP.


That TRP must be a little mad. Have you heard the Golden Gate by chance as I have one coming in to demo things.


----------



## leftside

paradoxper said:


> That TRP must be a little mad. Have you heard the Golden Gate by chance as I have one coming in to demo things.


Yeah it's mad with all the different tubes you can roll. My tube purchasing went a little crazy after I got the TRP, but has slowed down a lot now. Unfortunately I haven't heard the GG, but those that have it like it a lot.


----------



## paradoxper

leftside said:


> Yeah it's mad with all the different tubes you can roll. My tube purchasing went a little crazy after I got the TRP, but has slowed down a lot now. Unfortunately I haven't heard the GG, but those that have it like it a lot.


At least you know you'll never exhaust every tube complement. 

I am very curious how another 300B with a opposing implementation will compare, I'm only a little concerned with being locked down to Lampi's DSD ecosystem.
It's a shame there aren't more options for the market.


----------



## CopperFox (Dec 5, 2022)

New amplifier weekend!


----------



## ColSaulTigh

In case anyone wants to anger the Elrog gods - Takatsuki 300B's...

*https://www.head-fi.org/classifieds/matched-pair-of-takatsuki-ta-300b-tubes.37285/*


----------



## nwavesailor

I, for one, do not want to risk the wrath and ire of the Elrog gods upon me sorry a** !


----------



## ColSaulTigh

nwavesailor said:


> I, for one, do not want to risk the wrath and ire of the Elrog gods upon me sorry a** !


No, you of all people shouldn't.  They may smite you in your sleep!


----------



## JeffMann

I have a question about Elrog 300B tubes.

Why is their filament glow yellowish in color when all other 300B tubes have an orange-colored filament glow?

Jeff.


----------



## Galapac

ColSaulTigh said:


> In case anyone wants to anger the Elrog gods - Takatsuki 300B's...
> 
> *https://www.head-fi.org/classifieds/matched-pair-of-takatsuki-ta-300b-tubes.37285/*


I may not anger the Elrog Gods, but if I spent more money this year on audio I would definitely anger my better half.


----------



## Galapac (Dec 5, 2022)

JeffMann said:


> I have a question about Elrog 300B tubes.
> 
> Why is their filament glow yellowish in color when all other 300B tubes have an orange-colored filament glow?
> 
> Jeff.


Different filament type is used that is not in other tubes. It is a thoriated tungsten filament. Burns hotter/brighter and is part of it’s magic.
I think it’s the only audio tube using this type of filament today in new production tubes.


----------



## 1Audiophool

Can’t accurately capture it with my crappy phone camera but enjoying that golden Elrog glow now🎵🎶… fantastic 😁


----------



## paradoxper

Under quadrology, the ER glow is essence of everything 300B alone is not.


----------



## Somatic

paradoxper said:


> Under quadrology, the ER glow is essence of everything 300B alone is not.


Had to show off what a true believer can achieve!


----------



## ColSaulTigh

paradoxper said:


> Under quadrology, the ER glow is essence of everything 300B alone is not.


The Elrog Gods are pleased this night!


----------



## Skyediver

My mailman made me happy with his delivery today!  Came about a week earlier than expected.





Still waiting for a set of driver tubes I ordered to arrive, but at least I can get started with some small scale tube rolling now that these babies have landed.  Excited!


----------



## paradoxper

ColSaulTigh said:


> The Elrog Gods are pleased this night!


Burning Elrogs through the night, there is no better way to spend time.


----------



## WillieB

Somatic said:


> Anyone using tube dampers? Covers the pretty tubes, but seems a lot of people like them.
> 
> https://herbiesaudiolab.com/collections/tube-dampers


I use a couple different types from Herbie. They're about the best that I've found. I'm just kind of in the habit of putting them on if I have a set that fit the tubes that I'm using. Even though they are much less necessary in headphone systems, they do help with certain issues like ringing.


----------



## nwavesailor

Perhaps I'm being naive, or wishing for a some Santa Magic, but still wondering if a TM300B (w/o buying a TM amp) will ever become a reality? 

I don't think I want or need to buy the MO version if the TM will happen at some point. I guess there is always more and new shiny objects in this crazy hobby!


----------



## ThanatosVI

nwavesailor said:


> Perhaps I'm being naive, or wishing for a some Santa Magic, but still wondering if a TM300B (w/o buying a TM amp) will ever become a reality?
> 
> I don't think I want or need to buy the MO version if the TM will happen at some point.* I guess there is always more and new shiny objects in this crazy hobby!*


The only constant in life is change


----------



## ColSaulTigh

nwavesailor said:


> Perhaps I'm being naive, or wishing for a some Santa Magic, but still wondering if a TM300B (w/o buying a TM amp) will ever become a reality?
> 
> I don't think I want or need to buy the MO version if the TM will happen at some point. I guess there is always more and new shiny objects in this crazy hobby!


One thing that I can guarantee is that if you buy the Mo's and the TM's do become available, you won't have any issue selling them on the Classifieds section...


----------



## nwavesailor

Well.............you are the MO Man!
My resistance and sitting on the fence, other than the $2200, is some reporting the MO as a detail monster (gotta LOVE that) but a bit thin.
As I get better and more resoling tubes, hp and gear I admit that I've moved more into the analytical camp. When I know some faint and subtle percussion element is there and I don't hear it, I focus on it!

Perhaps adding the MO, alongside his kid brother, the ER would please the Elrog gods!


----------



## incredulousity (Dec 6, 2022)

Mo are not thin when they break in. Just don’t use them with a dry, flat 6SN7.

But, if you want more toooby, the next two steps are Elrog ER and AN4300E. The Elrog have greater detail.


----------



## ThanatosVI

incredulousity said:


> Mo are not thin when they break in. Just don’t use them with a dry, flat 6SN7.
> 
> But, if you want more toooby, the next two steps are Elrog ER and AN4300E. The Elrog have greater detail.


And "even more tubey" would be the Western Electric 300B


----------



## incredulousity (Dec 6, 2022)

ThanatosVI said:


> And "even more tubey" would be the Western Electric 300B


Of course, but I’m trying to minimize the compromises sequentially for the guy.

The reason to get WE is blue glow.

Or, if you have the WE amp, and you don’t want to cut holes to accommodate Elrogs. Though I bet they would be great in that amp too.


----------



## nwavesailor

I love the ER with 1758, TSRP, TS 6F8G  and many 6J5. Just thinking of snagging the MO for 'MO' goodness.

I have 0 interest in any warmer sounding tubes!


----------



## paradoxper (Dec 6, 2022)

nwavesailor said:


> Perhaps I'm being naive, or wishing for a some Santa Magic, but still wondering if a TM300B (w/o buying a TM amp) will ever become a reality?
> 
> I don't think I want or need to buy the MO version if the TM will happen at some point. I guess there is always more and new shiny objects in this crazy hobby!


Likely not as their production is limited in scale and they are much more difficult to manufacture.

What is possibly coming in years will be different plate geometries and alternative materials with efforts to surpass molybdenum.


----------



## nwavesailor

OK, I do recall TM replying to you or @ThanatosVI that they were trying to keep up with demand and adding the TM as another option would be difficult.

Maybe I'll snag the MO!


----------



## JTbbb

nwavesailor said:


> I love the ER with 1758, TSRP, TS 6F8G  and many 6J5. Just thinking of snagging the MO for 'MO' goodness.
> 
> I have 0 interest in any warmer sounding tubes!


They also go well with the Brimar CV1988 and the Mullard ecc32. But bizarrely with the Mullard, impedance mid is required. Well, with my HD800S phones, in Envy.


----------



## Somatic

ThanatosVI said:


> The only constant in life is change





nwavesailor said:


> OK, I do recall TM replying to you or @ThanatosVI that they were trying to keep up with demand and adding the TM as another option would be difficult.
> 
> Maybe I'll snag the MO!


I will probably hold of until the TM. Maybe in a few years haha. Let us know how you like the Mo if you get it.


----------



## nwavesailor

Great!
 I think I'm good and will try to resist hunting for the CV1988's or Mullard ECC32


----------



## paradoxper

nwavesailor said:


> Great!
> I think I'm good and will try to resist hunting for the CV1988's or Mullard ECC32


What are your main headphones? IMO I'd pursue scaling resolution here.


----------



## nwavesailor

Sus and LCD-5


----------



## paradoxper

nwavesailor said:


> Sus and LCD-5


Add Mo with Susvara and then build out a STAX system or one of the RAALs.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

The Mo's are definitely detailed, but they are by no means thin.  I don't have a pair of the ER's to compare (maybe after Christmas) but they are definitely strong tubes.  Best way to describe them is Takatsuki 300B's, with more bass and oomph.

"Tubey" is a relative term, and as others have said, you can accomplish quite a bit with something other than plain ol' 6SN7's (RCA Grey Glass, Tung Sol 6F8G, etc.).  I'm currently experimenting with 6J5's - we'll see how those go.


----------



## Somatic

ColSaulTigh said:


> The Mo's are definitely detailed, but they are by no means thin.  I don't have a pair of the ER's to compare (maybe after Christmas) but they are definitely strong tubes.  Best way to describe them is Takatsuki 300B's, with more bass and oomph.
> 
> "Tubey" is a relative term, and as others have said, you can accomplish quite a bit with something other than plain ol' 6SN7's (RCA Grey Glass, Tung Sol 6F8G, etc.).  I'm currently experimenting with 6J5's - we'll see how those go.


I am very interested in your ER vs MO comparison ...


----------



## nwavesailor

I’m pretty far down the 6J5 🐇 hole and prefer the versions I have (GEC ST and GT, TS, Vissaeux and Brimar’s in route) to the TSRP 6SN7 and 6F8G and even the 1578 with the ER and Envy.

@incredulousity should have his 6J5 adapters soon and some of the same 6J5’s to pair with his ER and MO in his Envy!


----------



## ColSaulTigh

nwavesailor said:


> I’m pretty far down the 6J5 🐇 hole and prefer the versions I have (GEC ST and GT, TS, Vissaeux and Brimar’s in route) to the TSRP 6SN7 and 6F8G and even the 1578 with the ER and Envy.
> 
> @incredulousity should have his 6J5 adapters soon and some of the same 6J5’s to pair with his ER and MO in his Envy!


I've been stalking that thread and started working my way up the tube chain there.  The NOS Ken Rads I got from India arrived today - they seem nice, albeit a bit midrange happy.  I won't derail this thread further, as it may upset the Elrog gods...


----------



## nwavesailor

You know just how good your TS 6F8G snd TSRP 6SN7 are.

The TS 6J5G are right there with those greats albeit tough to find.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

nwavesailor said:


> You know just how good your TS 6F8G snd TSRP 6SN7 are.
> 
> The TS 6J5G are right there with those greats albeit tough to find.


You vex me!  You vex me and now I must have them!


----------



## nwavesailor (Dec 6, 2022)

You’re tenacious and no doubt will find some!

Maybe your dealer in Argentina has some in s dusty old box from WW ll.

@Xcalibur255 had them at the top. I think he found some of these TS branded Motorola (?) that were as good as the TS branded 6J5G


----------



## Basco

wjhen said:


> I stumbled upon this thread in Head-fi. I see a great admiration for Elrog 300B tubes. For more than over a year I use the Elrog 300B and Elrog 5U4G is my Border Patrol 300B SE amplifier, I also use an Elrog 274B in my Lampizator Atlantic TRP. To conclude, In all places I can use an Elrog tube, I have put one. Only the output tubes of the Atlantic TRP are Western Electric 350B and the driver tube of my amplifier is a WE417a. The Elrog tubes have replaced my Western Electric 300B, my Western Electric 274B, and my Western Electric 422a (5U4G).
> 
> That is not to say that I do not like the Western Electric tubes any more. Far from it. Western Electric and Elrog are generally after a different type of sound. And my system profits from a little bit of both.
> 
> ...


Any Impressions for a direct comparison of the WE422a vs Elrog ER5U4G? Would like to use the rectifier for more music that needs good dynamics and bass presence like electronic music, Hip Hop or Funk. 

As you say Western Electric's"lack bass, are less clear, have much less control in complex musical passages, and have lower resolution" I would assume Elrogs are superior in this case?

Thanks for your feedback


----------



## leftside

nwavesailor said:


> Great!
> I think I'm good and will try to resist hunting for the CV1988's or Mullard ECC32


The Mullard ECC32 is worthwhile seeking. Still one of my favourite tubes. Even a lower testing/cheaper one will work for many years in a headphone amp. Just make sure your amp is suitable as they are not a drop in replacement for 6SN7.


----------



## leftside

nwavesailor said:


> You’re tenacious and no doubt will find some!
> 
> Maybe your dealer in Argentina has some in s dusty old box from WW ll.
> 
> @Xcalibur255 had them at the top. I think he found some of these TS branded Motorola (?) that were as good as the TS branded 6J5G


Just remember GEC made the 6J5/L63 from the late 1940's to the early 1970's. Many different variations with multiple different parts and construction used over the years. All those tubes listed are good tho. But, I've yet to find a bad 6J5, unless of course it's near to end of life. I'm still a fan of 6SN7, but generally I prefer to use 6J5 these days. And have even had two amps custom built to specifically use 6J5 tubes.


----------



## nwavesailor (Dec 11, 2022)

If someone wants a NEW, never used pair of Elrog ER300B I'll be putting them in the classified ads tomorrow at a nice price!

 I would like to limit the sale to the US with the Post Office no fun at all this close to Christmas.


----------



## incredulousity

Selling ER for Mo?


----------



## ThanatosVI

incredulousity said:


> Selling ER for Mo?


Rather selling Backup ER for MO


----------



## nwavesailor

A new never used backup pair. No point in having 2 pairs of ER  if I'll have a MO too. 
I get caught up in buying 'backup' tubes and never need or use them!


----------



## incredulousity

Makes sense. The only backup (duplicate) tubes I have are Melz 1578.


----------



## JTbbb

nwavesailor said:


> A new never used backup pair. No point in having 2 pairs of ER  if I'll have a MO too.
> I get caught up in buying 'backup' tubes and never need or use them!


Haha, I know where your coming from. I sold a pair of WE300’s to fund a backup pair of ER’s. I’m putting some hours on them now, then squirrelling them away.


----------



## nwavesailor

Elrogs are live in classifieds


----------



## incredulousity

Let the frenzy begin!


----------



## ColSaulTigh

You should have put them up as an auction item and watch the bidding frenzy!


----------



## nwavesailor

Yeah perhaps so, but someone on HeadFi will get a good deal and the Elrog gods will be pleased!


----------



## ColSaulTigh

nwavesailor said:


> Yeah perhaps so, but someone on HeadFi will get a good deal and the Elrog gods will be pleased!


I like your thought process!


----------



## JeffMann

ColSaulTigh said:


> You should have put them up as an auction item and watch the bidding frenzy!


The selling price is only $266 less than a brand new pair of Elrog ER300B tubes purchasable from PartsConnexion.

And there is no warranty because Elrog only offers the 1 year warranty to the original buyer.

Jeff.


----------



## WillieB

JeffMann said:


> The selling price is only $266 less than a brand new pair of Elrog ER300B tubes purchasable from PartsConnexion.
> 
> And there is no warranty because Elrog only offers the 1 year warranty to the original buyer.
> 
> Jeff.


They are verified good tubes, though. Most faulty tubes fail early on, so there's something to be said for that.


----------



## YungOmbat

protoss said:


> I am trying to compile a full list of all 300B TUBE Headphone amplifiers.
> Am I missing top-tier amps with 300B tube inputs?
> 
> Headphone amplifiers that takes *300B TUBES. *
> ...



damn thats one expansive list of expensive amps
[/QUOTE]


----------



## ColSaulTigh

JeffMann said:


> The selling price is only $266 less than a brand new pair of Elrog ER300B tubes purchasable from PartsConnexion.
> 
> And there is no warranty because Elrog only offers the 1 year warranty to the original buyer.
> 
> Jeff.


>> 21% off retail.  Plus no sales tax, so figure another 6-7% on average.  
>> Shipping included
>> In stock
>> Seller is (I'm assuming) willing to help with any warranty issues.

Sounds like a deal to me.  Only reason I haven't bought them (yet) is because I dropped $10k this month in headphones, amps, and tubes.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

WillieB said:


> They are verified good tubes, though. Most faulty tubes fail early on, so there's something to be said for that.


My original Elrog 274B's failed IMMEDIATELY upon setting them up.  I still think it was a compatibility issue with the Woo Audio WA5-LE (even though it runs every other 274B just fine).  Supplier was kind enough to replace them with Elrog 5U4G's (which took 3 weeks to arrive), but have been working just fine ever since.  No issues with them or my Elrog 300B-Mo's, so consider me satisfied.


----------



## nwavesailor

Sold the new backup Elrog ER pair and placed an order for incoming MO's. 

I'm fairly confident the Elrog Gods would approve!


----------



## ColSaulTigh

nwavesailor said:


> Sold the new backup Elrog ER pair and placed an order for incoming MO's.
> 
> I'm fairly confident the Elrog Gods would approve!


----------



## paradoxper

ColSaulTigh said:


> My original Elrog 274B's failed IMMEDIATELY upon setting them up.  I still think it was a compatibility issue with the Woo Audio WA5-LE (even though it runs every other 274B just fine).  Supplier was kind enough to replace them with Elrog 5U4G's (which took 3 weeks to arrive), but have been working just fine ever since.  No issues with them or my Elrog 300B-Mo's, so consider me satisfied.


To be clear, it was confirmed the 274B was a defect failure likely damaged through shipping/transit.

If you may be concerned with compatibility, always ask.


----------



## Ayaka

Hi guys! I’m interested in buying a 300b amp, which one one would you choose value for money?
I was looking at the Elekit 8900 and the Willsenton but didn’t find direct comparison. Was really interested by a decware (even maybe the upcoming 300b) but with a wait time of more than 2 years 😑😓

Btw I’ll use the amp with 92db efficient speakers.

Ps: I can have an Elekit 8900 *assembled* for 1200$


----------



## CopperFox

Ayaka said:


> Hi guys! I’m interested in buying a 300b amp, which one one would you choose value for money?
> I was looking at the Elekit 8900 and the Willsenton but didn’t find direct comparison. Was really interested by a decware (even maybe the upcoming 300b) but with a wait time of more than 2 years 😑😓
> 
> Btw I’ll use the amp with 92db efficient speakers.
> ...



This would depend a lot on what kind of headphones you would want to use it with?


----------



## Ayaka

CopperFox said:


> This would depend a lot on what kind of headphones you would want to use it with?


No headphones (for now), only speakers (92db efficient)


----------



## CopperFox

Ayaka said:


> No headphones (for now), only speakers (92db efficient)



Ah, I don't have experience or intention of using them to power speakers. However, about the headphone output, it was stated in this post that the headphone output on at least the Willsenton R8 (KT88) amplifier may not be that good. If you want headphone use, get something that has an emphasis on headphone use in its design.

The best headphone output would be done by transformers and also have switchable impedance matching that is done by transformers. I believe on the Elekit the switching is done by some other means and there is some unclarity over what its actual headphone output impedances are.

On the first page the best value award was given to the WBA 300b, but @protoss I think you should remove that award for the following reason: the manufacturer states that for optimal impedance matching, 200 ohm headphones should be used. It will not deliver enough power for any 200 ohm planars, and it will have major impedance mismatch for any low impedance planars, causing major sound degradation. However, it should have enough power for dynamic headphones and high impedance dynamics in particular. Therefore its actual scope of usability is quite limited and anyone getting it for use with any planars will be disappointed.

The Elekit would be good value for speakers and it also does have a headphone output that has been given some emphasis as well in its design.


----------



## Somatic

So WE300B is supposed to be warmer than ElrogER? WE sounds brighter and more airy with less extension on both ends. Am I missing something?


----------



## Somatic

Putting some matched pair of WE300B on classifieds. Has 1 hour of use. Practically new. I decided I prefer the ElrogER. Thanks.

https://www.head-fi.org/classifieds/western-electric-300b-matched-pair.38022/


----------



## nwavesailor

Nice, someone will snag these!


----------



## CopperFox

Tubes have burn in.


----------



## Somatic

CopperFox said:


> Tubes have burn in.


Yes, but I just like Elrogs too much. Worst case no one buys and I will keep. No worries.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Somatic said:


> So WE300B is supposed to be warmer than ElrogER? WE sounds brighter and more airy with less extension on both ends. Am I missing something?


They don't lack warmth.  They sound bloated and heavy, especially even compared to the Elrogs.  Tube burn in is a real thing though, and out of the box they sound "raw".  Give them some time, but they will never sound close to the Elrogs.


----------



## ThanatosVI

ColSaulTigh said:


> They don't lack warmth.  They sound bloated and heavy, especially even compared to the Elrogs.  Tube burn in is a real thing though, and out of the box they sound "raw".  Give them some time, but they will never sound close to the Elrogs.


So Elrog = Well extended, great weight to the tone, neutral 
Western Electric = rolled of at the edges (like all other 300B), warm tone, beautiful midrange?


----------



## ColSaulTigh

ThanatosVI said:


> So Elrog = Well extended, great weight to the tone, neutral
> Western Electric = rolled of at the edges (like all other 300B), warm tone, beautiful midrange?


I don't know that I would say "beautiful" midrange, but yeah, that's about right.


----------



## paradoxper

ColSaulTigh said:


> I don't know that I would say "beautiful" midrange, but yeah, that's about right.


It's midrange and all they do well. They are good if you've not heard the Elrog difference.


----------



## CopperFox

The 300B sound has a special kind of 3D feeling to the soundstage, larger than life mids and a weighty bass.

ER300B is lacking in that specific 3D feeling, has more normal mids and less midbass focus.
IMO There are no grounds to declare either directly superior and I do not yet know which I will like more (if there even is a need to make such a distinction). I don't have a top WE300B.

The only power tubes I have at the moment are Electro-Harmonix 300B which came with my amp and ER300B which arrived surprisingly quickly. I have also ordered some tubes from AE BF sales which were Shuguang 300B-T, Linlai 300B-T and Linlai WE300B. So i'll be able to do comparisons between those soon. Curiously, some of the SG 300B-T marketing materials I've seen claim that it uses thoriated tungsten filaments (like the ER300B).

Have to say I've been very impressed with the CK300 amp. It does pretty much everything right and outdoes the other amplifiers I can use on both sound quality and power. I'll do a more complete writeup on it in the near future.


----------



## ThanatosVI

CopperFox said:


> The 300B sound has a special kind of 3D feeling to the soundstage, larger than life mids and a weighty bass.
> 
> ER300B is lacking in that specific 3D feeling, has more normal mids and less midbass focus.
> IMO There are no grounds to declare either directly superior and I do not yet know which I will like more (if there even is a need to make such a distinction). I don't have a top WE300B.
> ...


Looking forward to the comparisons


----------



## karangovil

CopperFox said:


> There are no grounds to declare either directly superior and I do not yet know which I will like more


----------



## nwavesailor (Dec 17, 2022)

We all hear differently and prefer a different sound. I initially found warm, lush tubes to be a nice pleasant sound.

What changed for me was when I heard a particular track I knew well and it had a faint or subtle item that was missing.
At that point I starting leaning towards a more detailed sound with all the subtle nuances audible.

I also started with the EH GOLD 300B as supplied with my Envy. There was nothing wrong with the EH but I knew from the first track I played that the Elrog ER 300B was more of what I was looking for and, IMO, a more real or live in the room or studio experience.

EDIT: I can always choose warmer, less detailed driver tubes to easily warm up the sound if I prefer but think I'll stay with the ER300B and incoming MO to bring out all the detail and cality that is in X recorded track.


----------



## WillieB

CopperFox said:


> The 300B sound has a special kind of 3D feeling to the soundstage, larger than life mids and a weighty bass.
> 
> ER300B is lacking in that specific 3D feeling, has more normal mids and less midbass focus.
> IMO There are no grounds to declare either directly superior and I do not yet know which I will like more (if there even is a need to make such a distinction). I don't have a top WE300B.
> ...


I just looked into the CK300 amp a bit. Very interesting. Is the impedance switching accomplished by way of the transformers?


----------



## normie610

ThanatosVI said:


> So Elrog = Well extended, great weight to the tone, neutral
> Western Electric = rolled of at the edges (like all other 300B), warm tone, beautiful midrange?


Actually I think it depends on the amp/preamp, also the matching input tubes and rectifiers. I can get a similar modern sound with the WEs when I paired them with Linlai E-6SL7s (holographic, beautiful mids with great extension on both ends). Whereas the Linlais when paired with Elrogs, make the Elrogs sound ordinary. On my system, the Elrogs shine with the Brimar CV1985 but retain similar characteristics with WE-Linlai pairing. Elrogs-Brimars edge out WE-Linlai eventually, but the difference in sound isn’t dramatic.


----------



## CopperFox (Dec 18, 2022)

WillieB said:


> I just looked into the CK300 amp a bit. Very interesting. Is the impedance switching accomplished by way of the transformers?



Yes, there is no voltage divider network for that on board. The output transformers are also inhouse designs built specifically for headphone use (Raphaelite are primarily a manufacturer of audio transformers and stereo/power amplifiers) - there are no speaker taps on the amp. There is also zero ICs on board - the balanced XLR input conversion is done by input transformers not opamps. Which can be considered more true to the idea of a pure SET amplifier.

What is unusual is that there seems to be some sort of integrated phono stage in the amp so a vinyl player can be hooked directly into it. Got a cable for that a couple of days ago but haven't tried it yet.


----------



## CopperFox

Here are some more Elrogs glowing in the night.


----------



## WillieB

CopperFox said:


> Yes, there is no voltage divider network for that on board. The output transformers are also inhouse designs built specifically for headphone use (Raphaelite are primarily a manufacturer of audio transformers and power amplifiers) - there are no speaker taps on the amp. There is also zero ICs on board - the balanced XLR input conversion is done by input transformers not opamps. Which can be considered more true to the idea of a pure SET amplifier.
> 
> What is unusual is that there seems to be some sort of integrated phono stage in the amp so a vinyl player can be hooked directly into it. Got a cable for that a couple of days ago but haven't tried it yet.


Thanks for the info! I read on Ali Express (after my last post) that it used a potentiometer so perhaps the description is wrong there(like a lot of items on Ali). Anyway, that's a lot of amp for the price. It also says it's for 220-240V and I don't see a 120V version listed. I have an AC to AC transformer that can take care of that, though.


----------



## CopperFox

nwavesailor said:


> We all hear differently and prefer a different sound. I initially found warm, lush tubes to be a nice pleasant sound.
> 
> What changed for me was when I heard a particular track I knew well and it had a faint or subtle item that was missing.
> At that point I starting leaning towards a more detailed sound with all the subtle nuances audible.
> ...



With my (not gold) EH 300B, listening to Black Sabbath's Ten Year War compilation from 2009 there was a feeling of being in the middle of a live performance from the big and tall mids and overall soundstage presentation. I will want to do that again. On other sources there is less such presence and it's more like a studio album which it actually is.

The Elrogs have great sub-bass and an _eerie_ amount of bass detail which is what i like most about for so far. But it's still early stages for me with 300Bs in general.


----------



## CopperFox

WillieB said:


> Thanks for the info! I read on Ali Express (after my last post) that it used a potentiometer so perhaps the description is wrong there(like a lot of items on Ali). Anyway, that's a lot of amp for the price. It also says it's for 220-240V and I don't see a 120V version listed. I have an AC to AC transformer that can take care of that, though.



If you're referring to the phrase "The both balanced and 6.3mm Jack output's impedances be adjustable by potentiometer between 32-120-300-600ohm", it refers to the actual physical method of adjusting the output impedance. It is done by turning a knob and not by for example opening the chassis and setting jumpers in different positions.

I've seen some sellers offer a 110V version. I'd expect those who don't could do that if you ask. They seem to be made on order as the date stamp on the bottom mine is five days after I placed my order.


----------



## Somatic

nwavesailor said:


> Well.............you are the MO Man!
> My resistance and sitting on the fence, other than the $2200, is some reporting the MO as a detail monster (gotta LOVE that) but a bit thin.
> As I get better and more resoling tubes, hp and gear I admit that I've moved more into the analytical camp. When I know some faint and subtle percussion element is there and I don't hear it, I focus on it!
> 
> Perhaps adding the MO, alongside his kid brother, the ER would please the Elrog gods!


Man, now I'm looking to get a MO. Mmmmm.

I'm waiting for them to go back on sale in the states. :/


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Somatic said:


> Man, now I'm looking to get a MO. Mmmmm.
> 
> I'm waiting for them to go back on sale in the states. :/


Did somebody say Mo's???


----------



## incredulousity (Dec 18, 2022)

Mo Mos!

Mine are obnoxious, and refuse to share Envy with the other 300Bs on the shelf.


----------



## Somatic

ColSaulTigh said:


> Did somebody say Mo's???


So nice!! Hehe


----------



## nwavesailor (Dec 18, 2022)

I have dibs on one of the MO in route to PC.
Perhaps Mr. Claus has them packed and they will be 'Out for Delivery' on the sleigh for me!


----------



## incredulousity

nwavesailor said:


> I have dibs on one of the MO in route to PC.
> Perhaps Mr. Claus has them packed and they will be 'Out for delivery' on the sleigh for me!


The Elrog gods are pleased!


----------



## Somatic

nwavesailor said:


> I have dibs on one of the MO in route to PC.
> Perhaps Mr. Claus has them packed and they will be 'Out for Delivery' on the sleigh for me!


I didn’t get notified that they went back on sale. I’m emailing them now. Going to see if I can get them.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

incredulousity said:


> The Elrog gods are pleased!


Indeed!


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Somatic said:


> I didn’t get notified that they went back on sale. I’m emailing them now. Going to see if I can get them.


Call them in the morning and get on the list.  They get shipments every 3-4 weeks or so.  That's the best way to ensure you get them.


----------



## nwavesailor (Dec 18, 2022)

Somatic said:


> I didn’t get notified that they went back on sale. I’m emailing them now. Going to see if I can get them.


They MO are not in stock but are supposed to be............. soon.
I asked a week or 2 ago and  committed to buying a pair.

Perhaps start with an email tonight asking to put your name on a pair (you'll need to pay in advance) and as @ColSaulTigh suggested call Chris first thing and confirm that MO's are still up for grabs.


----------



## incredulousity

ColSaulTigh said:


> Call them in the morning and get on the list.  They get shipments every 3-4 weeks or so.  That's the best way to ensure you get them.


Actually, email now. They answer my emails consistently at weird and weekend hours.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

nwavesailor said:


> They MO are not in stock but are supposed to be............. soon.
> I asked a week or 2 ago and  committed to buying a pair.
> 
> Perhaps start with an email tonight asking to put your name on a pair (you'll need to pay in advance) and as @ColSaulTigh suggested call Chris first thing and confirm that MO's are still up for grabs.


As popular as they are, they won't be "in stock" for a while.  I'm pretty sure between this thread, the Envy thread, and the Cayain thread, we're responsible for all of their sales for the last 6 months.

They get a limited shipment monthly from Germany (@paradoxper can probably provide more color commentary).  But if you want to be guaranteed a pair, you need to get on the list, otherwise they go down the list and those folks get first dibs.


----------



## Somatic

Sent them email a little while ago. Thanks


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Somatic said:


> Sent them email a little while ago. Thanks


Another believer has been brought into the Elrog fold!  The Masters will be pleased.


----------



## paradoxper

ColSaulTigh said:


> As popular as they are, they won't be "in stock" for a while.  I'm pretty sure between this thread, the Envy thread, and the Cayain thread, we're responsible for all of their sales for the last 6 months.
> 
> They get a limited shipment monthly from Germany (@paradoxper can probably provide more color commentary).  But if you want to be guaranteed a pair, you need to get on the list, otherwise they go down the list and those folks get first dibs.


It's certainly not monthly but they are constantly treading stock as it is.
Luckily, they have received a shipment of 5U recently. Likely won't last.


----------



## Somatic

protoss said:


> https://www.closeracoustics.com/pos...-er300b-mo-a-subjective-300b-tubes-comparison
> 
> This review says, the Elrog is analytical and the Elrog MO is even more analytical. That's what I got from it?
> 
> Anyone wants to dispute it, or they nailed it?


I have ERs. Great extension. Linear. Doesn't sound analytical at all. Now I want to try the MOs.


----------



## incredulousity (Dec 19, 2022)

Somatic said:


> I have ERs. Great extension. Linear. Doesn't sound analytical at all. Now I want to try the MOs.


I agree with you about the ERs. The Mos are a little less tooby sounding, and even better defined on bass and treble. If your driver tubes permit it, it is the best bass that I’ve heard from tubes, rivaling top tier solid state amp like Bliss.

Also, as I am experimenting with very weird drivers, Mo gives me a really great picture of the effects of each driver I try. This is with Envy, but will apply to Cayin HA300-2 as well.


----------



## Somatic

incredulousity said:


> I agree with you about the ERs. The Mos are a little less tooby sounding, and even better defined on bass and treble. If your driver tubes permit it, it is the best bass that I’ve heard from tubes, rivaling top tier solid state amp like Bliss.
> 
> Also, as I am experimenting with very weird drivers, Mo gives me a really great picture of the effects of each driver I try. This is with Envy, but will apply to Cayin HA300-2 as well.


Does owning the MO make you feel that the ERs are unnecessary? Anything the ERs excel better than MO? Thanks.


----------



## incredulousity

Somatic said:


> Does owning the MO make you feel that the ERs are unnecessary? Anything the ERs excel better than MO? Thanks.


I have both. I am keeping both. I like the ER better with the stock PSVane tubes, which are the least tooby drivers I have. This is also the case for the Shuguang red base 6SN7 WE knockoffs.

For most other things I am preferring the Mo, but both are really good for everything. 

My long term plan is to keep both types of Elrog, AN4300E, and to sell the GL and the FullMusic, replacing them with WE for the blue glow.


----------



## F208Frank

Can anyone give a quick TOTL why 300B tube amps are so desired?

Solid state guy here, so excuse the ignorance. I have the AIC 10 by riviera and it uses a tube for the pre amp.


----------



## Somatic

F208Frank said:


> Can anyone give a quick TOTL why 300B tube amps are so desired?
> 
> Solid state guy here, so excuse the ignorance. I have the AIC 10 by riviera and it uses a tube for the pre amp.


Makes everything better. Extension, macro/micro details, timbre etc. Like getting a new SS amp. You can flavor your amp to your liking. To an extent.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

F208Frank said:


> Can anyone give a quick TOTL why 300B tube amps are so desired?
> 
> Solid state guy here, so excuse the ignorance. I have the AIC 10 by riviera and it uses a tube for the pre amp.


There is a certain "color" and "weight" to the music, specifically in the upper bass-to-high-midrange that you don't really get with most SS amplifiers.  SS provides clean sound, but 300B's (as well as other tube-based amplifiers) add a little magic to the equation.  The added benefit is that you can "fine tune" the sound to your liking by swapping out tubes.  If you want dark and romantic, there's a tube combo for that.  Want bright and punchy?  Same thing.  Rich and full-bodied?  Yep, that's also a tube combination.


----------



## nwavesailor (Dec 19, 2022)

My MO's are on jolly Santa's sleigh and are heading my way..........

MO-MO-MO, Merry Christmas!!!


----------



## normie610

nwavesailor said:


> My MO's are on jolly Santa's sleigh and are heading my way..........
> 
> MO-MO-MO, Merry Christmas!!!


I hope you have a chimney for Santa to drop it off!


----------



## nwavesailor

As a matter of fact, I do have a chimney!


----------



## normie610

nwavesailor said:


> As a matter of fact, I do have a chimney!


You’re good to go then! 😁


----------



## ColSaulTigh

nwavesailor said:


> My MO's are on jolly Santa's sleigh and are heading my way..........
> 
> MO-MO-MO, Merry Christmas!!!


May the Elrog gods forever shine their light upon you in favor!


----------



## jonathan c

nwavesailor said:


> As a matter of fact, I do have a chimney!


…that you do not use as a transmission line sound propagator…🤔🤷🏻‍♂️🤣…?


----------



## incredulousity

I did not touch Envy today. Now. Must do penance tomorrow


----------



## ColSaulTigh

incredulousity said:


> I did not touch Envy today. Now. Must do penance tomorrow


----------



## Somatic

karangovil said:


> Really appreciate the details but I'm afraid I jumped the gun too quick and already ordered the Elrog 300B Mo ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. It'll take my wallet some time to recover from the hit but I'll eventually recover and will need another dose of a new set of tubes and will go for a more classic 300B then


How are you liking the MO?


----------



## paradoxper

nwavesailor said:


> My MO's are on jolly Santa's sleigh and are heading my way..........
> 
> MO-MO-MO, Merry Christmas!!!


You've been a very naughty boy.


----------



## Somatic

Thanks @nwavesailor got the last MO pair. I could have waited but the FOMO is too much lol. I got a small deal on them as well. Win win.

Very interested on how it differs from ER.


----------



## karangovil

Somatic said:


> How are you liking the MO?


I'm really liking them, especially with more modern metal which tends to be faster with more complex passages. I'm not great as describing but everything sounds very tight, dynamics, both macro and micro, are excellent, bass and treble seem to extend as far as the headphones will let them go. Separation is also very on point, especially with the bass guitar on busy tracks. However to me it can sound a bit clinical sometimes when listening to more _romance_ music like cool Jazz or even classic rock where I might like something more relaxed.

I recently got a pair of WEs which I am trying to get past 100 hour mark so have been listening to them more last few weeks and I still find myself switching to Elrogs when I want to put on the 1266 TC for a metal session. Both WE and Elrogs probably need at least a few more months to settle down though.


----------



## incredulousity

Someone is selling WE set for $1000 on classifieds now.


----------



## paradoxper

Somatic said:


> Thanks @nwavesailor got the last MO pair. I could have waited but the FOMO is too much lol. I got a small deal on them as well. Win win.
> 
> Very interested on how it differs from ER.


You made the only choice.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

paradoxper said:


> You made the only choice.


The Elrog Gods are pleased.


----------



## Somatic

Oh snap. Elrog GODs are angry. It was sent to my old address. I forgot to update them :/. They all went home but left them a message. It just left the building :/ ...

We shall see if they can get FedEx to reroute it ... damn


----------



## nwavesailor

Rerouting an international parcel a few days before Christmas? What could possibly go wrong 😳

That’s asking a lot of Santa with the sleigh pretty well loaded up and ready to go…..

Have you been naughty?

Best not ask your better half her opinion with all the top shelf tubes you have snagged lately!!!


----------



## Somatic

I’ve sinned. No MO for me.


----------



## WillieB

I've been on the 300B hunt for a while now, but have yet to make a decision on an amp. I recently find myself more curious about the 845 options out there as, from what I've experienced, that tube may suit me even better than 300B. Has anyone here heard the Elrog 845s?


----------



## incredulousity

FOMO — NoMo — oh no!


----------



## paradoxper

If you guys are ordering from PXC, you will need to continue to put in your pre-order payments.

They don't have the ability to order enough stock within each queue cycle.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Somatic said:


> Oh snap. Elrog GODs are angry. It was sent to my old address. I forgot to update them :/. They all went home but left them a message. It just left the building :/ ...
> 
> We shall see if they can get FedEx to reroute it ... damn


This is because you failed to present your offering to the Elrog gods in a timely fashion.  The Elrog gods have smited you for your heresy!


----------



## Somatic

nwavesailor said:


> Rerouting an international parcel a few days before Christmas? What could possibly go wrong 😳
> 
> That’s asking a lot of Santa with the sleigh pretty well loaded up and ready to go…..
> 
> ...


It has been re-routed. I guess I still have some redeeming qualities left. Yes, my wife doesn't really know how much all this costs. Getting harder to hide. I'm sure if she knew how much the MO cost, she wouldn't be happy.

I am very curious on how they differ. Seems like over 1k more for the use of molybdenum. I think the mark up on these might be through the roof. Oh well, if it sounds much better, I won't mind.

Heating up these Elrogs this morning  ... Music time soon


----------



## nwavesailor

Somatic said:


> Yes, my wife doesn't really know how much all this costs. Getting harder to hide. I'm sure if she knew how much the MO cost, she wouldn't be happy.


Let's not forget an Envy, 6F8G, 2 (?) pairs of 1578, DAVE and Fared PS!!!!! She's an 😇😇😇


----------



## Somatic

nwavesailor said:


> Let's not forget an Envy, 6F8G, 2 (?) pairs of 1578, DAVE and Fared PS!!!!! She's an 😇😇😇


Oh yeah. Forgot about those . Lol

I had boxes coming in for 2 years. I think she is over it now. Told her this was my last amp. Haha


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Somatic said:


> Oh yeah. Forgot about those . Lol
> 
> I had boxes coming in for 2 years. I think she is over it now. Told her this was my last amp. Haha


----------



## Somatic

ColSaulTigh said:


>


For now! lol

Hard at times. Work in progress. Young kids make it harder.


----------



## nwavesailor

The MO's have arrived.
I'll do a quick check with the tester and see what all the fuss is about!


----------



## ColSaulTigh

nwavesailor said:


> The MO's have arrived.
> I'll do a quick check with the tester and see what all the fuss is about!


Be sure to genuflect when you start to see them glow.


----------



## Somatic

ColSaulTigh said:


> Be sure to genuflect when you start to see them glow.


Learning something everyday. Who says headfi isn't a waste of time?! Got to use this word today haha

genuflect 
lower one's body briefly by bending one knee to the ground, typically in worship or as a sign of respect.
"she genuflected and crossed herself"


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Somatic said:


> Learning something everyday. Who says headfi isn't a waste of time?! Got to use this word today haha
> 
> genuflect
> lower one's body briefly by bending one knee to the ground, typically in worship or as a sign of respect.
> "she genuflected and crossed herself"


This is the only proper sign of respect before your new Elrog Gods.


----------



## Somatic

ColSaulTigh said:


> This is the only proper sign of respect before your new Elrog Gods.


I do have a strong feeling of reverence once they start to glow.


----------



## ARCXENOS

Hopefully the elrog gods won't smite me, but I am wondering if anyone has any opinions on the Cetron 300b


----------



## incredulousity (Dec 22, 2022)

I’ve not heard of that one.

Here’s an ancient article that describes them. 

https://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/1201/300b/


----------



## Somatic

paradoxper said:


> You fantastic bastardd.
> 
> Quick to long aside: do you find it curious WE long had a reputation for being a little soft at the extreme ends yet besides the large staging characteristics and known quantity midrange presence, they're really strongly bass monsters. Present bloom to radiate but clearly punched out and as you say visceral.
> 
> ...


I would think WE300B would be a good pairing with TCs due to its recessed midrange.


----------



## Somatic

paradoxper said:


> You are going to contend against bloom richness particularly through midbass with almost all 300B.
> At the same time, the only purist bass monster phones are 1266 and HE-6, the others have a varied bloat or rolled response.
> Not of that JVC skull rattle variety.
> 
> ...


Any genres the WE300B is suited for?


----------



## paradoxper

Somatic said:


> Any genres the WE300B is suited for?


Probably all or most. Many vocal oriented material. Just depends on the listening preference.

I can't unhear the type of midbass boost or the amount of treble rolling Western Electric present. The blessing and the damnation of the hobby.


----------



## Somatic

paradoxper said:


> Probably all or most. Many vocal oriented material. Just depends on the listening preference.
> 
> I can't unhear the type of midbass boost or the amount of treble rolling Western Electric present. The blessing and the damnation of the hobby.


Too me so far they sound very bright with the Melz 1578. Might not be good synergy. Very mid forward. Mids are too raw at this time. Hoping break in will smooth these out. Going to try my TS 6F8G round plates soon. Maybe RCA smoked glass. Not sure they go well with Melz to my ears.


----------



## incredulousity

Supposedly WE take a long time to burn in, and change a lot.


----------



## paradoxper

Somatic said:


> Too me so far they sound very bright with the Melz 1578. Might not be good synergy. Very mid forward. Mids are too raw at this time. Hoping break in will smooth these out. Going to try my TS 6F8G round plates soon. Maybe RCA smoked glass. Not sure they go well with Melz to my ears.


Oh, you got plenty time.


----------



## normie610

incredulousity said:


> Supposedly WE take a long time to burn in, and change a lot.


A WE rep said on an email to me that it could take up to 500 hrs 😁


----------



## nwavesailor (Dec 23, 2022)

I think @incredulousity nailed the MO to ER comparison.
The ER300B work well with any driver tubes and most any genres in the Envy.

The MO's provide more clarity and detail than the ER and work with most of what I listen to. Classic rock, alternative, some jazz and classical

 I'm only a couple of hours into the MO's and I was a bit distracted chasing a noisy 6J5G tube tonight.
 Too early to tell if these will replace the ER as my daily driver. I sure hope so because, when they sound right, they are crazy good!


----------



## ThanatosVI

normie610 said:


> A WE rep said on an email to me that it could take up to 500 hrs 😁


Yeah tubes "burn in" all the time. 
In my early tube days I was told "tubes keep improving until they die"


----------



## nwavesailor (Dec 23, 2022)

As the officials in the NFL say: “on further review”……….

The Elrog MO are very nice paired with smoked glass GEC 6J5G and playing everything from Red Hot Chili Peppers to Yo-Yo Ma and a Celtic Christmas🌲 

Sorry to use this old audio cliches, but the MO’s are like a veil has been removed and the presentation is another level of being there.

The real test will be when I roll the ER300B back in.


----------



## Somatic

nwavesailor said:


> As the officials in the NFL say: “on further review”……….
> 
> The Elrog MO are very nice paired with smoked glass GEC 6J5G and playing everything from Red Hot Chili Peppers to Yo-Yo Ma and a Celtic Christmas🌲
> 
> ...


Joining the party in a bit. 

Letting them warm up. They smelled a bit like cigar. Maybe people were celebrating 🥳 lol


----------



## Tshaff

I was interested in getting an endgame tube amp and was wondering what you guys think. Was debating between the Ampandsound Red October and the Woo Audio WA33 Elite Edition with JPS cables. I want to know if there is any of you who have had the pleasure of listening to both of these amps and can say which one sounds better? The Red October's lifetime warranty is really appealing compared to the WA33 3 year warranty, but if the WA33 EE JPS sounds way better than I would still get it. I have heard Ampandsounds lower end amps compare with amps in this price bracket though so if their Red October could compete or even be better than the WA33 EE I would get it. Any help would really be appreciated please! Thank you!


----------



## normie610

Tshaff said:


> I was interested in getting an endgame tube amp and was wondering what you guys think. Was debating between the Ampandsound Red October and the Woo Audio WA33 Elite Edition with JPS cables. I want to know if there is any of you who have had the pleasure of listening to both of these amps and can say which one sounds better? The Red October's lifetime warranty is really appealing compared to the WA33 3 year warranty, but if the WA33 EE JPS sounds way better than I would still get it. I have heard Ampandsounds lower end amps compare with amps in this price bracket though so if their Red October could compete or even be better than the WA33 EE I would get it. Any help would really be appreciated please! Thank you!


I believe @DJJEZ would be able to help you out since he owns both.


----------



## Tshaff

normie610 said:


> I believe @DJJEZ would be able to help you out since he owns both.


Haha messaged him. He hasn't got back to me yet, but I finally just now found his write up review of the Red October and he compared them saying "In my opinion the wa33 has more pinpoint accurate sharper imaging along with speed and transients but the red october beats it in every single other aspect. The Red october sounds way more tubier, much more open sounding, better midrange, richer, bigger soundstage (both depth and width), better tonal density, better timbre, more natural and alot more smoother and just overall more analogue than the wa33." So that paired with the lifetime warranty and how dope Justin is makes me lean toward the Red October! Appreciate the reply as well


----------



## ARCXENOS

Somatic said:


> Letting them warm up. They smelled a bit like cigar. Maybe people were celebrating



According to my local distributor, Thomas Mayer loves smoking cigars. Thats how you know for sure they are real elrogs


----------



## Somatic

ARCXENOS said:


> According to my local distributor, Thomas Mayer loves smoking cigars. Thats how you know for sure they are real elrogs


I also partake in the habit. Man of class. Hehe


----------



## nwavesailor (Dec 25, 2022)

Merry Christmas!

The Elrog King, @paradoxper, had the addition of my MO's figured out before I had  heard a single note.......and he was right!
It pairs wonderfully with the Susvara in the Envy with any of my favorite driver tubes and is a work in progress with the LCD-5.
At 3 days in with the Sus I think the MO will be my Elrog pair.
The ER's are fantastic tubes and yeah, the MO are a bit more $$$, but it is not a subtle improvement.


----------



## Somatic

nwavesailor said:


> Merry Christmas!
> 
> The Elrog King, @paradoxper, had the addition of my MO's figured out before I had  heard a single note.......and he was right!
> It pairs wonderfully with the Susvara in the Envy with any of my favorite driver tubes and is a work in progress with the LCD-5.
> ...


Which driver tubes are your favorite pairings?


----------



## Somatic

paradoxper said:


> Oh, you got plenty time.


You mean, I need a bunch of hours to fully break them in (WE300b)? Off the bat, with only a few days break in, they sound bright and raw in the midrange. Very forward, but not as smooth as I would want yet. On the other hand, Elrogs seemed to sound good out of box. Got better after a week.


----------



## paradoxper

Somatic said:


> Which driver tubes are your favorite pairings?


Well, first I have 20 pair of MELZ. So a little crazy.
I like the TSBP and VT-231. But I am big fan of the RCA grey glass as sinful as it is, it is just fun and enjoyable..

And yes, I try to evaluate things at 50 hours and feel 100 is more than fair for extremes.


----------



## paradoxper

nwavesailor said:


> Merry Christmas!
> 
> The Elrog King, @paradoxper, had the addition of my MO's figured out before I had  heard a single note.......and he was right!
> It pairs wonderfully with the Susvara in the Envy with any of my favorite driver tubes and is a work in progress with the LCD-5.
> ...


If TM300B goes live, that provides a little more flexibility with pairing. 

But I knew you'd like Sus and Mo.


----------



## Somatic

karangovil said:


> Just email Chris directly, I’m in NJ and they didn’t have any issues ordering WE300B to US. Might be something weird on the website.


How are you liking your WE300Bs? Have you burned them in fully yet?


----------



## Traiguen

Any comments on how well the new WE300B + Linlai E-6SN7 pair on a Cayin 300B mk II?


----------



## normie610

Traiguen said:


> Any comments on how well the new WE300B + Linlai E-6SN7 pair on a Cayin 300B mk II?


I don’t own the amp and my preamp doesn’t use 6SN7, but WE300B + Linlai E-6SL7 combo sounds superb on my system. I suspect it’d be similar to WE300B + E-6SN7 on your Cayin.


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## ThanatosVI

normie610 said:


> I don’t own the amp and my preamp doesn’t use 6SN7, but WE300B + Linlai E-6SL7 combo sounds superb on my system. I suspect it’d be similar to WE300B + E-6SN7 on your Cayin.


How would you describe the sound character of the Linlai E-6SL7?


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## normie610

ThanatosVI said:


> How would you describe the sound character of the Linlai E-6SL7?


Modern sounding, adding more heft on low end and more sparkly treble to WE300B. Definitely not a mellow sounding tube.


----------



## ThanatosVI

normie610 said:


> Modern sounding, adding more heft on low end and more sparkly treble to WE300B. Definitely not a mellow sounding tube.


Thx


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## incredulousity (Dec 26, 2022)

deleted. 

Duh. He said 6SL7.


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## ColSaulTigh

In case anyone is looking for a deal on a pair of WE300B's:

https://www.head-fi.org/classifieds/we-300b-matched-pair-low-hours.38012/

I've bought from him before - good guy!


----------



## Somatic

normie610 said:


> A WE rep said on an email to me that it could take up to 500 hrs 😁


I was too preemptively harsh on the WE300Bs. At first I found them to be shouty and a bit bright. This has gotten much better after several days of burn in. Amazing soundstage, nice mid forward nature. Loving them. Paired with 6SN7 RCA Smoked Glass right now.


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## normie610

Somatic said:


> I was too preemptively harsh on the WE300Bs. At first I found them to be shouty and a bit bright. This has gotten much better after several days of burn in. Amazing soundstage, nice mid forward nature. Loving them. Paired with 6SN7 RCA Smoked Glass right now.


Glad you like them. Patience is a virtue! 😁


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## ColSaulTigh

Somatic said:


> I was too preemptively harsh on the WE300Bs. At first I found them to be shouty and a bit bright. This has gotten much better after several days of burn in. Amazing soundstage, nice mid forward nature. Loving them. Paired with 6SN7 RCA Smoked Glass right now.


That sounds like a pretty thick combination.


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## CopperFox

WillieB said:


> I've been on the 300B hunt for a while now, but have yet to make a decision on an amp. I recently find myself more curious about the 845 options out there as, from what I've experienced, that tube may suit me even better than 300B. Has anyone here heard the Elrog 845s?



There isn't likely to be many answers to this question here as there are not many 845 headphone amplifiers around. Only one I know of is the Viva Egoista 845 with RRP of something like 17000€.


----------



## nwavesailor

From the very first track, cold with 0 hours on the Elrog ER, I knew I found my  ‘house sound’ 300B.

The MO are another level and, as interesting as the WE may sound, I have no desire for a warmer less revealing power tube.

 That is with my ears, my music and knowing the level of detail I want to hear.


----------



## incredulousity

ColSaulTigh said:


> That sounds like a pretty thick combination.


I agree. I plan to start with the PSVane and the Melz.


----------



## paradoxper

ColSaulTigh said:


> That sounds like a pretty thick combination.


I imagine they're still pretty raw but at 100 hours, I was thinking the same thing.


----------



## paradoxper

nwavesailor said:


> From the very first track, cold with 0 hours on the Elrog ER, I knew I found my  ‘house sound’ 300B.
> 
> The MO are another level and, as interesting as the WE may sound, I have no desire for a warmer less revealing power tube.
> 
> That is with my ears, my music and knowing the level of detail I want to hear.


Now we're saying Mo makes the ER sound broken.  

And the TM300B make...🤣


----------



## incredulousity

paradoxper said:


> Now we're saying Mo makes the ER sound broken.
> 
> And the TM300B make...🤣


Nooooooooooooooo!


----------



## Somatic

paradoxper said:


> Now we're saying Mo makes the ER sound broken.
> 
> And the TM300B make...🤣


I’m still an ER fan. Hehe. 

Still trying to find the right combo for the MO.


----------



## nwavesailor

Someday I may get to own the TM…..or at least continue with TM dreams!  😳


----------



## Somatic

paradoxper said:


> I imagine they're still pretty raw but at 100 hours, I was thinking the same thing.


I was expecting this as well but as paradoxper says they must be raw so the rca smoked glass of evening it out. 

I’m sure once it is all broken in I’ll use the Melz.


----------



## Somatic

nwavesailor said:


> Someday I may get to own the TM…..or at least continue with TM dreams!  😳


We must get all the Elrogs 

TM sounds sweet


----------



## paradoxper

It is inevitable.


----------



## ampsandsound

Somatic said:


> How are you liking your WE300Bs? Have you burned them in fully yet?


The WE300b was like a 20-30hr burn in… fully mellowed out by 100hrs. the takatsuki 300b were 400hrs to get to same point. Big investment in burn in.


----------



## incredulousity

paradoxper said:


> It is inevitable.


Or at least resistance is futile.


----------



## paradoxper

incredulousity said:


> Or at least resistance is futile.


Friends don't allow for resistance.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

paradoxper said:


> It is inevitable.


----------



## ThanatosVI

ColSaulTigh said:


>


Someone Photoshop an Elrog tube over his head


----------



## paradoxper

So I'm rolling 101D and PX tubes currently, and the Linlai 300B Dream Series pops up. Any takers?
I'm perturbed by the egg shape design which aesthetics don't often bother me.
I can't say I'm entirely motivated but I am actively rolling. Ha.
https://premiumvacuumtubes.com/product/linlai-global-300b-d-egg-shaped-vacuum-tubes/


----------



## JTbbb

paradoxper said:


> So I'm rolling 101D and PX tubes currently, and the Linlai 300B Dream Series pops up. Any takers?
> I'm perturbed by the egg shape design which aesthetics don't often bother me.
> I can't say I'm entirely motivated but I am actively rolling. Ha.
> https://premiumvacuumtubes.com/product/linlai-global-300b-d-egg-shaped-vacuum-tubes/


Hmm, see what you mean. Couple of lightbulbs in your amp!


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## normie610

paradoxper said:


> I'm perturbed by the egg shape design.


Maybe you can also boil them and eat them?


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## ThanatosVI

paradoxper said:


> So I'm rolling 101D and PX tubes currently, and the Linlai 300B Dream Series pops up. Any takers?
> I'm perturbed by the egg shape design which aesthetics don't often bother me.
> I can't say I'm entirely motivated but I am actively rolling. Ha.
> https://premiumvacuumtubes.com/product/linlai-global-300b-d-egg-shaped-vacuum-tubes/


Too bad you're from the US.
I'd take them but it probably makes more sense to sell them to anyone in your country.
The egg shape makes them look like KT150s 

Tell me how they sound!


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## paradoxper

normie610 said:


> Maybe you can also boil them and eat them?


Perhaps I did mean hors d'oeuvre.


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## Basco (Dec 27, 2022)

ThanatosVI said:


> Someone Photoshop an Elrog tube over his head


Speaking of (the Tube) Endgame What you‘re going to do when* Iron Man* comes along😉 you know the story ✊

Still thinking of a metaphorical tube for that 🤔✌️


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## JTbbb

ThanatosVI said:


> Too bad you're from the US.
> I'd take them but it probably makes more sense to sell them to anyone in your country.
> The egg shape makes them look like KT150s
> 
> Tell me how they sound!


I think they will be a little Clucky 😀


----------



## ufospls2




----------



## ColSaulTigh

ThanatosVI said:


> Someone Photoshop an Elrog tube over his head


----------



## ThanatosVI

ColSaulTigh said:


>


Perfect!


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## Basco

ThanatosVI said:


> Perfect!


Another Homage to the Elrog gods 🙇‍♂️


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## ThanatosVI (Dec 27, 2022)

paradoxper said:


> So I'm rolling 101D and PX tubes currently, and the Linlai 300B Dream Series pops up. Any takers?
> I'm perturbed by the egg shape design which aesthetics don't often bother me.
> I can't say I'm entirely motivated but I am actively rolling. Ha.
> https://premiumvacuumtubes.com/product/linlai-global-300b-d-egg-shaped-vacuum-tubes/


Interestingly the dream series doesn't Show on the Linlai global Website. Maybe they are just Linlai labelled but not true Linlai tubes.

There also seems to be a KT88 from that series. From BTB Elektronik(german Linlai Distributor) I heard that those are produced for Linlai while they work on their own KT88

Edit: I actually inquired directly at Linlai what's going on with this Dream series.
Awaiting response


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## paradoxper

ThanatosVI said:


> Interestingly the dream series doesn't Show on the Linlai global Website. Maybe they are just Linlai labelled but not true Linlai tubes.
> 
> There also seems to be a KT88 from that series. From BTB Elektronik(german Linlai Distributor) I heard that those are produced for Linlai while they work on their own KT88
> 
> ...


Back in April they said they were undergoing testing by their distributor which does happen to be GF. It is curious that they don't have them listed.


----------



## wiaderko

hi guys, does anybody had experience with linlai 300b elite version ?
I have elrogs (dynamics, shorter than acme tones), acme, but looking for more experience.
There is absolutely no informations in google about elrogs vs elite :/


----------



## ThanatosVI

paradoxper said:


> Back in April they said they were undergoing testing by their distributor which does happen to be GF. It is curious that they don't have them listed.


I received official answer from Linlai global (took only few hours, so that was fast)
The Dream series are official Linlai tubes and legit. They just didn't update the Linlai global Website yet.

Guess I will order their KT88s in january and wait for the 300B Feedback from one of you guys


----------



## paradoxper

ThanatosVI said:


> I received official answer from Linlai global (took only few hours, so that was fast)
> The Dream series are official Linlai tubes and legit. They just didn't update the Linlai global Website yet.
> 
> Guess I will order their KT88s in january and wait for the 300B Feedback from one of you guys


Well, it ain't like people are swarming Linlai for these tubes. Ha.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

For anyone interested in a decent case to store your tubes, the rifle case I use is on sale for $129:






You can also use this 25% off coupon for the pistol case I use for my driver tubes:




Happy New Year!


----------



## Basco

ColSaulTigh said:


> For anyone interested in a decent case to store your tubes, the rifle case I use is on sale for $129:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Better way to spend the money for tubes instead for heats.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Basco said:


> Better way to spend the money for tubes instead for heats.


Huh?


----------



## paradoxper

ColSaulTigh said:


> Huh?


Think he's referring to heat as guns.


----------



## ThanatosVI

ColSaulTigh said:


> Huh?


Good, so I wasn't the only one who didn't understand that.


----------



## jonathan c

Basco said:


> Another Homage to the Elrog gods 🙇‍♂️


…. I think that I’ll stay ‘elrognostic’…. 🤷🏻‍♂️🤣


----------



## ColSaulTigh

jonathan c said:


> …. I think that I’ll stay ‘elrognostic’…. 🤷🏻‍♂️🤣


----------



## Basco

ColSaulTigh said:


> Hey no I meant that because initially the case was supposed for "guns" and it's better tho spend the money for tubes instead of "weapons" It was intended as an ironical "joke"





ColSaulTigh said:


> Because coming from Germany it isn't allowed to own guns freely only when you have a firearms certificate that is very hard to get and includes the application of a criminal record.
> 
> Personally I don't have any use or connection to guns as American citizen might have because this is like "another planet" for me.


----------



## Basco

paradoxper said:


> Think he's referring to heat as guns.


----------



## ThanatosVI

Basco said:


>


How the **** is #1 "Synonym for gun" and only #2 "To describe Temperature"?

Also you can buy these cases in germany as well, however we call them "Universal case" (for cameras, Tools, guns and other precious items)


----------



## paradoxper

ThanatosVI said:


> How the **** is #1 "Synonym for gun" and only #2 "To describe Temperature"?


Haha!


----------



## genefruit

ThanatosVI said:


> How the **** is #1 "Synonym for gun" and only #2 "To describe Temperature"?


When you cite Urban Dictionary - https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Heat


----------



## normie610

Basco said:


>


So heater = gunner?


----------



## ThanatosVI

ColSaulTigh said:


> For anyone interested in a decent case to store your tubes, the rifle case I use is on sale for $129:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Inspired by this I upgraded my own tube storage with such an universal case.
The case:



The raw inside



The tube storage 




On the upper right is still space for another tube pair.
On the lower right I thought about storing 12au7 tubes.

Or buying a new foam in order to distribute it evenly.  
Sorry to All with OCD, I know there are irregularities.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

ThanatosVI said:


> Inspired by this I upgraded my own tube storage with such an universal case.
> The case:
> 
> The raw inside
> ...


Have any adapters you use with these you can put in that lower-right space?  I store mine in the cases as well for easy access.


----------



## ThanatosVI

ColSaulTigh said:


> Have any adapters you use with these you can put in that lower-right space?  I store mine in the cases as well for easy access.


In that case I don't have any, but I will keep that in mind for future cases


----------



## protoss

ThanatosVI said:


> tube storage with such an universal case.


Tube storage cases are fascinating to look at.


----------



## CAJames

I say store your tubes like a pro:


----------



## normie610

I’m in love with Fivre 6SL7s! These Italian babies are incredible with the Elrogs. All of the sudden, my 1266 TC has this very accurate timbre and tonality. The best and most correct I’ve heard so far. I love how string instruments and female vocals sound. To top it off, they make TC’s bass even more powerful. A skull rattling, earth shattering, galaxy destroying, Thanos killing bass! (sorry for the superlatives but it really is that powerful).


----------



## KarlStromberg

Hey everyone, eventually there will be someone new to the Elrog club (means worshipping the gods of Elrog ) as I am currently thinking about to upgrade my Eddie Current Studio B from JJs to the ER300B. Maybe someone here can help me with the question asked here: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/eddie-current-studio-300b-the-thread.965119/post-17326321

I know it has been discussed a few times already, but you know how it his. Spending that much for an upgrade always leaves you with a rest of doubt as I don't want to invest in both the ER300B and WE300B. If I go for the Elrog I think it makes sense to go with the ER300B not the MO, since my sound preferences described seems to match the ER300B more than the MO variant, if I understood that correctly.


----------



## Basco (Jan 1, 2023)

KarlStromberg said:


> Hey everyone, eventually there will be someone new to the Elrog club (means worshipping the gods of Elrog ) as I am currently thinking about to upgrade my Eddie Current Studio B from JJs to the ER300B. Maybe someone here can help me with the question asked here: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/eddie-current-studio-300b-the-thread.965119/post-17326321
> 
> I know it has been discussed a few times already, but you know how it his. Spending that much for an upgrade always leaves you with a rest of doubt as I don't want to invest in both the ER300B and WE300B. If I go for the Elrog I think it makes sense to go with the ER300B not the MO, since my sound preferences described seems to match the ER300B more than the MO variant, if I understood that correctly.


Hey good to see considering the Elrogs. I had the same thoughts when considering WE 422A or ER5U4G for my WA6-SE as I didn’t want to spend 1.5 K for two top tier rectifiers at once.

Given the price for the Western Electrics that are in the same price tier than the Elrogs (720.- €) I had to consider if it’s going to be a new generation, tube or an NOS. I decided to go with another NOS (GEC U52) instead that is almost two 1/2 times cheaper with almost the same sonic characteristics (if you consider DSG thread a source of truth) and to go with the Elrog for a top tier tube for now.

So in the end, it’s you who has to decide if it’s going to be NOS or New Gen tubes. If don’t like it if and if it’s in good condition, I’m sure that you can resell it on classified here.

Good luck with your choice


----------



## normie610

KarlStromberg said:


> Hey everyone, eventually there will be someone new to the Elrog club (means worshipping the gods of Elrog ) as I am currently thinking about to upgrade my Eddie Current Studio B from JJs to the ER300B. Maybe someone here can help me with the question asked here: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/eddie-current-studio-300b-the-thread.965119/post-17326321
> 
> I know it has been discussed a few times already, but you know how it his. Spending that much for an upgrade always leaves you with a rest of doubt as I don't want to invest in both the ER300B and WE300B. If I go for the Elrog I think it makes sense to go with the ER300B not the MO, since my sound preferences described seems to match the ER300B more than the MO variant, if I understood that correctly.


I saw your post on the eddie current thread. And you‘re correct, if you’re concerned that ER300B is too linear sounding, you can compensate it with Mullard GZ34. I have a CV1377 F32 and it gives ER300B a ”fuller” sound. I also tried to use Holland made Amperex F32, but it gives a leaner sound. But you don’t need to be worried too much, the ER300B still has 300B traits/character, it’s just more “modern” sounding than the others.


----------



## paradoxper

We're going to start the year off in trend. I think it catches on.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

paradoxper said:


> We're going to start the year off in trend. I think it catches on.


Needs more Elrogs.


----------



## paradoxper

ColSaulTigh said:


> Needs more Elrogs.


Thomas knows I dream every night Elrog 45. *Drools*


----------



## Basco

paradoxper said:


> Thomas knows I dream every night Elrog 45. *Drools*


Is this an allusion to „Studio 45“?


----------



## paradoxper

Basco said:


> Is this an allusion to „Studio 45“?


Affinity for the magic Perryman 45 mesh and EML 45 Globe Mesh and the desperate plea for Elrog to make one.


----------



## Basco

paradoxper said:


> Affinity for the magic Perryman 45 mesh and EML 45 Globe Mesh and the desperate plea for Elrog to make one.


Then they had to make a whole new production line and new mashines and alter manufacturing processes.

I guess producing mesh material requires special knowledge in this field maybe thats something new to Elrog and requires to consider the prototyping processes. I think Elrog already has an extensive tube portfolio not sure if a „Mesh“ tube would fit?


----------



## paradoxper

Basco said:


> Then they had to make a whole new production line and new mashines and alter manufacturing processes.
> 
> I guess producing mesh material requires special knowledge in this field maybe thats something new to Elrog and requires to consider the prototyping processes. I think Elrog already has an extensive tube portfolio not sure if a „Mesh“ tube would fit?


As the 45 can do things no other tube does, it's a blue-sky exploration.


----------



## incredulousity

paradoxper said:


> As the 45 can do things no other tube does, it's a blue-sky exploration.


What things are those?


----------



## paradoxper

incredulousity said:


> What things are those?


The emotional sense of immediacy through air, richness and nimble presence. The 300B (Elrog, any) proves bold, tactility, dynamism.

The contrast is that of electrostatic to planar.


----------



## Basco

paradoxper said:


> As the 45 can do things no other tube does, it's a blue-sky exploration.


Does this type fit the 5U4G / or 274B slot?


----------



## ThanatosVI

Basco said:


> Does this type fit the 5U4G / or 274B slot?


The 45 is a power tube like 300B or 2A3

Short answer: no


----------



## paradoxper

ThanatosVI said:


> The 45 is a power tube like 300B or 2A3
> 
> Short answer: no


As well, the filament voltage is lower than 300B, so do not plug and play.


----------



## Somatic

Not sure if this is correct but I feel I am able to extract more detail such as the ambient noise of recording with the Envy, good 300Bs, that I was unable with solid state. Just seems more noticeable to me now.


----------



## paradoxper

Somatic said:


> Not sure if this is correct but I feel I am able to extract more detail such as the ambient noise of recording with the Envy, good 300Bs, that I was unable with solid state. Just seems more noticeable to me now.


Try Anna Von Hausswolff - Liturgy of Light. It's a fantastic reference that illuminates ambient detail amongst the crazy dimension of space in the recording.


----------



## normie610

Waiting for these rare beauties to arrive for my 300B preamp:

*Mullard ECC35 brown short base*






*Mullard GZ34 F31 fat base*


----------



## leftside

normie610 said:


> Waiting for these rare beauties to arrive for my 300B preamp:
> 
> *Mullard ECC35 brown short base*
> 
> ...


What are the date codes on your ECC35? Would be great if they are also from 1959 (same as your GZ34).


----------



## normie610

leftside said:


> What are the date codes on your ECC35? Would be great if they are also from 1959 (same as your GZ34).


I think the seller mentioned 1347 on both tubes which translates to Made in UK in 1957?


----------

