# iFi Audio Pro iDSD discussion thread



## JWahl

**Edited title to focus on Pro iDSD**
 
I was looking through the following CES 2014 coverage and it seems that iFi Audio is planning on launching a new traditional desktop enclosure line of components, starting with the iDSD desktop DAC/Headphone-amp/Preamp.
 

 
http://www.hifiplus.com/articles/ces-2014-headphone-earphones-and-related-electronics-part-2/?page=3
 
Haven't noticed it mentioned here yet so I figured I'd pass along.  Their micro and nano series components seem to have had good impressions so I look forward to seeing what more is to come in their larger components.


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## iFi audio

Hello,
  
 You asked....we answered:
  

Fully-Balanced DAC (USB/SPDIF/AES-EBU/Bluetooth)PowerSource:External DC 15V/2AFormats:44.1/48/88.2/96/176.4/192/384KHz PCM 2.8/3.1/5.6/6.2MHz DSD DXD Quad Core Dual Mono Bit Perfect DSD, PCM & DXD DAC by Burr Brown (4-DAC Chip; 8-Channel; 16-Signals)Filter:PCM: Standard/Minimum Phase digital, Bitperfect 1, Bitperfect 2; selectable DSD: Standard/Extended Range/Minimal analogue, selectable DXD: Bitperfect Processing, fixed analogue filterInput:USB 3.0 compatible with iPhone,iPod, iPad and Android Devices USB-OTG# SPDIF RCA/Optical (only PCM up to 192KHz), only active if USB disconnected AES-EBU Balanced / BNC SPDIF Unbalanced (selectable) Bluetooth with aptX OutputXLR True Balanced Audio (4V Output) Audio RCA (2V) 6.3mm Headphone 3.5mm adapter includedVolume Control:Balanced 4-Way precision analogue, can be bypassed for Line OutsDynamic Range:>119dBTHD &N (Line)< 0.001%HP Out Gain:0dB, 10dB and 20dB user-selectableTHD &N (HP 100mW)< 0.003%Output Power (16R): > 3000mW  # requires Camera Connection Kit or OTG adapter cable
  
 This is the premlin specs - so if there is anything you would like to see, chime in. You never know....


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## JWahl

Thanks for the feedback.  I'm surprised this didn't catch more attention around here given the popularity of the smaller components.  This seems like it could be a promising all-in-one, despite a lot of competition in the segment.  But I'm guessing it's also a prototype being that there are no markings or anything on the case.


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## iFi audio

jwahl said:


> Thanks for the feedback.  I'm surprised this didn't catch more attention around here given the popularity of the smaller components.  This seems like it could be a promising all-in-one, despite a lot of competition in the segment.  But I'm guessing it's also a prototype being that there are no markings or anything on the case.


 
  
 There are actually markings because it has an uber cool front plate....see below!
  

  
 There are 'hair's width' laser holes etched in the front plate. So the LED projects on the front display but when off, it looks like an ordinary front aluminium faceplate.
  
 show pics here:
 https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.625896377446108.1073741863.460963790606035&type=3
  
 Enjoy!


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## cute

I would like to hear some feedback from those users that use the I USB, and Gemeni cable....specifically the Gemeni cable between the I USB and I Link.  I found in a review of the IFI products, the reviewer liked the sound/soundstage better without the separate ground from the I USB, but using another USB cable from the right output of the I USB.  Just looking for some feedback as to what cables you use from computer to I USB, and I USB and beyond.  Right now I am liking the sound of my old USB cable, prior to purchase of IFI gears, in place of the Gemeni cable.  Personal preference, but I am trying to squeeze out the best sound I can.  IMO, I hear a bigger soundstage and same quality sound without the Gemeni in the chain.
  
 Response would be greatly appreciated!  Hope you enjoy your IFI gear as much as I do!


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## JWahl

ifi audio said:


> There are actually markings because it has an uber cool front plate....see below!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Very nice.  I wouldn't have caught that from the other picture.  That Mini I-tube pre looks interesting as well.  I can't help but wonder if there will be a revised I-link with the USB 3.0, or if the new Mini iDSD's USB implementation is at least equivalent to the standalone I-link.  I'm assuming the USB 3.0 is to accommodate the higher bandwidth required for the 6.2mhz DSD.  I'm not in much need of DSD myself but it is good to know it's futureproof in that regard.


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## iFi audio

jwahl said:


> Very nice.  I wouldn't have caught that from the other picture.  That Mini I-tube pre looks interesting as well.  I can't help but wonder if there will be a revised I-link with the USB 3.0, or if the new Mini iDSD's USB implementation is at least equivalent to the standalone I-link.  I'm assuming the USB 3.0 is to accommodate the higher bandwidth required for the 6.2mhz DSD.  I'm not in much need of DSD myself but it is good to know it's futureproof in that regard.


 
  
 Mini iTube - we'll let you know as soon as things are close to being soup.
  
 The iDSD's SPDIF of course does not have JET and High SPDIF output as on the iLINK. The SPDIF out on the iDSD is mainly for the convenience of sharing one USB Source with the iDSD and with an existing SPDIF equipped DAC, at high, but not ultimate quality. It is easily comparable in quality with many USB->SPDIF converters around the price class of the iDSD.

 The iLink is fully dedicated to being a pure SPDIF Source and uses pretty much the best and most extreme solutions for SPDIF in order to extract every possible iota of sound quality from the most DAC's.
  
 USB3.0 is not needed for DXD and double-speed DSD, but it is the coming standard and hence we have included USB3.0 connectors in all new product developments.


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## JWahl

Seems promising.  I'll certainly be keeping an eye on both of them.  The iDsd looks like it could be pricey on paper with the 4 DAC chips and fancy drilled plate display but I'm hoping it keeps a similar relative value to the smaller components.  $1000 to $1500 seems fair based on what's being offered on paper at least.  I think the next logical step in the future would be a dedicated headphone amp/preamp.  Perhaps tube hybrid and/or balanced to take full advantage of the iDsd output.


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## iFi audio

jwahl said:


> Seems promising.  I'll certainly be keeping an eye on both of them.  The iDsd looks like it could be pricey on paper with the 4 DAC chips and fancy drilled plate display but I'm hoping it keeps a similar relative value to the smaller components.  $1000 to $1500 seems fair based on what's being offered on paper at least.  I think the next logical step in the future would be a dedicated headphone amp/preamp.  Perhaps tube hybrid and/or balanced to take full advantage of the iDsd output.


 
  
 Thanks - rest assured it will be a bit extra special.
  
 For the headphone amp, take another look at the FaceBook post...c'mon, we cant spill all the beans!


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## JWahl

ifi audio said:


> Thanks - rest assured it will be a bit extra special.
> 
> For the headphone amp, take another look at the FaceBook post...c'mon, we cant spill all the beans!


 
 Very sneaky haha.  I'm surprised I missed that.  And yes I suppose some mystery is a good thing and patience a virtue.  Timing of product launches can be critical sometimes.  Great times to be a headphone enthusiast though for sure.


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## KmanChu

Sounds like the iDSD mini has a pretty hefty amp. Will it have the 3D and bass boost of the micro iCAN?
  
 Edit: ... just looked at the pics and there will actually be a mini iCAN as well. I guess no processing on the iDSD then.


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## pekingduck

I suppose it will be suitable for sensitive IEMs as well?


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## iFi audio

kmanchu said:


> Sounds like the iDSD mini has a pretty hefty amp. Will it have the 3D and bass boost of the micro iCAN?
> 
> Edit: ... just looked at the pics and there will actually be a mini iCAN as well. I guess no processing on the iDSD then.


 
  
 Hi,
  
 No the iFi product has digital processing but rest assured, the Mini series - iDSD/iCAN/iTUBE will all be a bit special.
  
 Watch this space...


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## youkeum

subs-!


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## kugino

any update on these products?


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## KmanChu

Also what about the powered monitor (iMon?) Any teaser info that you can give us about it?


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## Nirmalanow

You know what would be a great feature for the DAC/Amp....an SD card slot so that the unit could also be a stand alone music server. Kind of like the Resonessence Invicta. It would be cool to be able to set this up say next to the bed at night without having to have a computer or other source nearby.
  
 That would be a truly all in one desktop unit.


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## kugino

i like the front faceplate idea. i hope there's an option to dim it very low or turn it off altogether, though. what i also like is that BT is built-in - a nice way to use my phone to stream tunes without having more wires to connect. i know the geek pulse system has an external BT device, but built-in is much cleaner.
  
 i see they're going with their TI/Burr Brown chipset, which is going anti-ESS Sabre. i'm curious to see what the reviews will be for this amp/DAC. i like the fact that there are other options for DSD decoding other than the Sabre stuff, which seems to be omnipresent...


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## iFi audio

Hi All,
  
 You are all invited to the Crowd-Design (not Crowd-Funding) party here:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/711217/ifi-skunkworks-micro-idsd-crowd-design-by-you-for-you/30
  
 The top 10 most-valuable contributors to the features of the micro iDSD will receive a brand-spanking new, super-hot micro iDSD. See you there!
  
 thank you


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## kugino

ifi audio said:


> Hi All,
> 
> You are all invited to the Crowd-Design (not Crowd-Funding) party here:
> 
> ...


So that's for the micro. Any more info on the mini line of products?


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## iFi audio

kugino said:


> So that's for the micro. Any more info on the mini line of products?


 
  
 Hi,
  
 Latest is the micro iDSD will hit the streets early July.
  
 Judging by the volume of FB, HF and email response so far, we think we may well run a similar Crowd-Design project for the mini iDSD. We have already rec'd some cool requests that we hadn't thought of.


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## iFi audio

pekingduck said:


> I suppose it will be suitable for sensitive IEMs as well?


 
  
 With the nano iDSD sales and the micro iDSD Crowd-Design project, we have found IEMs are the most popular, especially ones that are high-sensitivity, design straight for iPhones.
  
 We will try our best to make it suitable for all but the further up, the more headphones dominate vis-a-vis IEMs.
  
 But keep thinking on this as design inputs are invaluable and much appreciated.


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## iFi audio

kugino said:


> So that's for the micro. Any more info on the mini line of products?


 
  
 Hi,
  
 Coming later this year, sometime after the micro iDSD because that is our top-priority at the moment.
  
 cheers


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## john57

Maybe another idea for the mini is DLNA support if this has not been mention already.


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## iFi audio

john57 said:


> Maybe another idea for the mini is DLNA support if this has not been mention already.


 
  
 Hi,
  
 Noted with thanks.
  
 The mini iDSD will rock - for sure!


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## john57

In addition to the possible DLNA feature I mention it should be capable of gapless playback otherwise you will not heard the end of this. I personally do not have much of a issue on this but heated debate by others.
  
 My second request. even more important is having the Mini DSD to remember filter settings. I received my Nano iDSD and found I like the minimum phase setting for PCM and the expansive mode for DSD. I do not like to keep flipping switches all the time. Easy to hear the difference.
  
 My third request is dimable display even off position.


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## iFi audio

john57 said:


> In addition to the possible DLNA feature I mention it should be capable of gapless playback otherwise you will not heard the end of this. I personally do not have much of a issue on this but heated debate by others.
> 
> My second request. even more important is having the Mini DSD to remember filter settings. I received my Nano iDSD and found I like the minimum phase setting for PCM and the expansive mode for DSD. I do not like to keep flipping switches all the time. Easy to hear the difference.
> 
> My third request is dimable display even off position.


 
 Hi John,
  
 Noted and we have passed onto the R&D people. If you look at the AMR machines, they have the recommended filter by default and the customer can switch out of these. It is likely that the iFi components will also see a similar setup.


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## mobzuzu

Any info on the iMon?
  
 really interested
  
 from the looks of it, seem like a design similar to those studio monitor where both L/R speakers needs to be powered separately because both L/R speaker has a set of built-in amplifier inside and the volume control is made possible with a preamp like iTube or nano iDSD? rather than master and slave powered speaker design where the amplifier is only in one of the speaker.


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## iFi audio

*T-minus 1 day: Crowd-Design (NOT Crowd-Funding) of the micro iDSD*

Guys and gals. ONE more day left for all entries to be submitted. There are a few who have contributed a heck of a lot but at the other end, there are some neck and neck entries.

 It is really difficult to to pick those at the moment as it is a real close-call.

 If you are one of those, keep chiming in as it is likely to make a difference.

 See you on the other side!
http://www.head-fi.org/t/711217/t-minus-1-day-idsd-micro-crowd-design-this-dac-hp-amp-is-beyond-awesome-some-last-minute-entries


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## iFi audio

Hi All,
  
*micro iDSD Crowd-Design (latest update: 16th April)*
 See this poll:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/711217/idsd-micro-crowd-design-phase-2-desktop-vs-portable-listening-poll-open-to-everyone-5-ipurifiers-up-for-grabs
  
  
  
*What % of your listening is Desktop vs Portable? (click on ONE answer)*
  
 This poll will close next Tuesday 22nd April.
  
 Please click on ONE answer. (you do have to be a HF member).
  
 We will put all the names into a hat and 5 names out of the hat will receive an iPurifier (from their local dealer). The iPurifier placed at the USB port of the DAC, audibly improves sonics by filtering out grunge on the audio+power lines.
  
 More details here:
http://ifi-audio.com/en/iPurifier.html
  
 Thank you for voting AND for noting your moniker in a post.
  
 It seems the poll only shows the number of voters and not the actual voters.
  
 Keep it up and we welcome your family and friends!
  
 Chance of a free iPurifier? - heck yes!


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## obsidyen

I think if iMini had two headphone jacks, that would be great. One 6.3mm for serious headphones, 60 ohm-600 ohm ones. Another for 8 ohm-60 ohm iems and headphones such as Sennheiser Momentum, Focal Spirit Classic, Sony MDR1 etc... It would be the best of both worlds.


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## Turrican2

obsidyen said:


> I think if iMini had two headphone jacks, that would be great. One 6.3mm for serious headphones, 60 ohm-600 ohm ones. Another for 8 ohm-60 ohm iems and headphones such as Sennheiser Momentum, Focal Spirit Classic, Sony MDR1 etc... It would be the best of both worlds.




And a third for balanced ......


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## kugino

three headphone outputs on the mini might not look that great. how about a switch in the back to change the gain on the SE output? but definitely yes on the balanced (4 pin) headphone jack


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## john57

Another vote for 4-pin XLR headphone jack(female) on front as well for a pair of line 3-pin XLR outputs on back.


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## iFi audio

Hi all,
  
 Have relayed your comments onto Thorsten and team.
  
 This is turning into another Crowd-Design project and we haven't finished the micro iDSD yet!
  
 You guys are working us hard!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Keep 'em coming!


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## Vartan

Mini iCAN price will be under 400? & release date?
 thanks


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## kugino

Doubt it. I





vartan said:


> Mini iCAN price will be under 400? & release date?
> thanks


doubt it. The micro iCan is $260. Mini will be much more, prbly $500-600


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## john57

Another idea for the mini iDSD is to add a USB port for local playback and music storage. Along with the DLNA capabilities the USB port should be able to support a wireless adapter that  supports a remote NAS device.
  
 Again another idea is to have a Ipad, smart phones to control the mini iDSD with the remote colorful display graphics of all your music albums. For example my Onkyo TX-8050 which does not have a color graphics display on it. I use J.River to connect to the TX-8050 with the Ethernet port on DLNA and then use any remote computer on my home network or smart device using the remote J.River Gimzo feature to access my remote music library for playback on the  TX-8050 or the mini iDSD in this case.


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## iFi audio

kugino said:


> Doubt it. I
> doubt it. The micro iCan is $260. Mini will be much more, prbly $500-600


 

 The mini series is Euro1,000 level. The mini iCAN will be serious monster of an amp that will run with the uber headamps.
  
 This is the remit of the whole mini series - iDSD, iCAN and iTUBE and iXXXX.


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## kugino

ifi audio said:


> The mini series is Euro1,000 level. The mini iCAN will be serious monster of an amp that will run with the uber headamps.
> 
> This is the remit of the whole mini series - iDSD, iCAN and iTUBE and iXXXX.


 
 that makes more sense. that's a crowded space, though. lots of DAC/amp combos in the $1000 (or 1.000 euro) arena. good for we consumers, though...everyone has to up the ante and everyone will bring their best. looking forward to seeing what iFi has up its sleeve for the iDSD.
  
 so is it the case then that the iDSD will be the DAC for the mini series? no mini iDAC?


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## iFi audio

kugino said:


> so is it the case then that the iDSD will be the DAC for the mini series? no mini iDAC?


 

 The micro iDAC only plays PCM au naturel. That came two years ago.
  
 The nano iDSD which came at the end of last year, it plays DSD/PCM/DXD au naturel.
  
 So the mini iDAC doesnt make sense due to the overlap.


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## john57

Another feature request for the mini iDSD is internet radio!


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## iFi audio

http://www.head-fi.org/t/695086/ifi-nano-ican-name-that-feature-competition-nano-ican-or-1-head-fi-rated-micro-ican-up-for-grabs

  
*Latest Update: 29th April*
 We have developed some exclusive attenuators for iFi customers who use very high-sensitivity IEMs with the nano iCAN, nano iDSD and micro iCAN. There are two versions: -12dB and -24dB.

  



  
 We are running a competition for the next 10 days (close: Saturday 10th May GMT: 21.00).

  
 Should you accept this mission, your objective is simple.

  
 i. Think of a name/names instead of "attenuator"

  
 ii. Post your suggestion/s in this thread

  
 iii. The top 3 most-liked names - chosen by the iFi senior team of Thorsten et al will win:

  
 #1 micro iCAN (rrp Euro259) (Ranked Number 1 headphone amp on Head-Fi!)
 #2 nano iCAN (rrp Euro169)
 #3 nano iCAN (rrp Euro169)

  
 Best of luck to all of you!

  
 Any questions, just ask away.


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## obsidyen

1) Subduer
 2) iSubduer


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## songmic

iSilencer
 iReducer
 iReductor
 iEM


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## iFi audio

songmic said:


> iSilencer
> iReducer
> iReductor
> iEM


 

  
 Hi,

  

  
 You need to post over here:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/695086/ifi-nano-ican-name-that-attenuator-competition-nano-ican-or-1-head-fi-rated-micro-ican-up-for-grabs


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## Watcherq

Radical idea: instead of using one of the existing DAC chips, how about writing your own using FPGA like what Chord Electronics is doing...


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## obsidyen

watcherq said:


> Radical idea: instead of using one of the existing DAC chips, how about writing your own using FPGA like what Chord Electronics is doing...


 

 That's the best idea on this topic. That said, it requires top class electronic engineers. What Chord Electronics have done is really, really hard.


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## john57

DP


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## paulraulerson

After listening to the iDDSD Nano for about a month, I am utterly sold on what you guys can do. It sounds absolutely delightful. I already have my credit card hot and ready for the iDSD Mini. 
  
 So given that, what I *really* want is a iDSD/HDMI PrePro with about four HDMI input ports on it and one output port, as well as a USB input, and a great headphone amp. You might already be halfway there.  
  
 It is a great nuisance to maintain two systems (okay, feed the output from a normal AVR to the HT input on a normal preamp) just to have good sound. Give me something that sounds as good as the iDSD and so long as it costs under $10K, it's mine.  
  
 Nobody has really cracked that nut for the average person or the audiophile yet. Or worse, we few audiophiles who also listen to a lot of music! All most people really want is two channel sound anyway.  
  
 -Paul 
  
 Grin- build a remote and put a good headphone amp in too- for late night and private listening!


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## Watcherq

obsidyen said:


> That's the best idea on this topic. That said, it requires top class electronic engineers. What Chord Electronics have done is really, really hard.


 
 I'm sure iFi engineers can match them    After reading what they did to the XMOS processor on the other thread, I've no doubt they are capable of it.
  
 Given that Hugo is using a Xilinx Spartan-6 FPGA chip, iFi can use a higher end chip, like the Kintex-7 on the mini which has far less constrains compared to the Hugo in terms of battery life (none on the mini) and heat dissipation (much more on the mini).  An alternative is to combo it with boards like those from Parallella.


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## obsidyen

watcherq said:


> I'm sure iFi engineers can match them    After reading what they did to the XMOS processor on the other thread, I've no doubt they are capable of it.
> 
> Given that Hugo is using a Xilinx Spartan-6 FPGA chip, iFi can use a higher end chip, like the Kintex-7 on the mini which has far less constrains compared to the Hugo in terms of battery life (none on the mini) and heat dissipation (much more on the mini).  An alternative is to combo it with boards like those from Parallella.


 
  
 Sure, iFi have AMR's support. That said if what Chord did were easy, everyone else would have done it. Using a top line ESS or TI chip is much easier and cheaper, you don't deal with R&D. iFi would have to R&D for the best sound with their custom chip and that would take time and money. If they did it though, they'd be leagues ahead of other companies. There's a reason why a small portable amp/dac sounds better than most full size desktop amps out there.
  
 That chip indeed seems better and pricier. I guess Hugo would be much more expensive if they used it. I wonder how much that chip costs.


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## kugino

I don't know much about FPGA but from the little I read about it, i like what's possible with it. I think the lynx Hilo uses FPGA as well...IF iFi went this route with the mini, wouldn't it then run closer to $2000-3000? Then we're getting into AMR territory. I'd imagine them implementing this in some AMR product first and then porting that tech to the ifi line of products.


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## Watcherq

obsidyen said:


> Sure, iFi have AMR's support. That said if what Chord did were easy, everyone else would have done it. Using a top line ESS or TI chip is much easier and cheaper, you don't deal with R&D. iFi would have to R&D for the best sound with their custom chip and that would take time and money. If they did it though, they'd be leagues ahead of other companies. There's a reason why a small portable amp/dac sounds better than most full size desktop amps out there.
> 
> That chip indeed seems better and pricier. I guess Hugo would be much more expensive if they used it. I wonder how much that chip costs.


 
 It may be straight forward to use existing DAC chips to do it, but OTOH, they have to figure out the tricks to the chips.  As for having a basic DAC on FPGA, there are already plenty of research and grad-school papers on them.  The advantages of using FPGA are that the manufacturer can implement all sorts of tricks and filters.  Hell, they can even sell custom filters and DSP and launch a third-party market with it.
  
 As for the price, it would really depend on the quantities ordered and the other negotiation stuff.  Point of reference: I participated in the Adapteva Kickstarter.  They were selling the Zedboard which is a combination of a dual core A-9 ARM processor with the Artix-7 (successor to the Spartan-6) and Parallella's (the owner of the Kickstarter) own custom parallel chip for a princely sum of $200 (see http://www.adapteva.com/announcements/the-parallella-board-uncovered/).  By stripping out stuff that they don't need, I think they can keep the cost down.


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## JWahl

watcherq said:


> Radical idea: instead of using one of the existing DAC chips, how about writing your own using FPGA like what Chord Electronics is doing...


 
  


obsidyen said:


> Sure, iFi have AMR's support. That said if what Chord did were easy, everyone else would have done it. Using a top line ESS or TI chip is much easier and cheaper, you don't deal with R&D. iFi would have to R&D for the best sound with their custom chip and that would take time and money. If they did it though, they'd be leagues ahead of other companies. There's a reason why a small portable amp/dac sounds better than most full size desktop amps out there.
> 
> That chip indeed seems better and pricier. I guess Hugo would be much more expensive if they used it. I wonder how much that chip costs.


 
  
 Yes, although it would seem like a good idea, it really does take a person or people who are very experienced in both programming and digital audio.  Not to say that iFi doesn't have those resources, they do have someone that does their xmos programming, but it appears they're strength is in knowledge of analog signals and the most cost effective approach is to apply that expertise using an already well performing off the shelf chip.  
  
 Even Resonessence Labs, who is very experienced in the above, uses the same Xilinx chip, in conjunction with ESS Dac chips, for custom filters and other functions.  
  
 I've recently finished a long term test of the iFi iDAC and iCan and have been quite impressed with them.  I also recently bought a Resonessence Labs Concero HP which IMO just edges out the iFi stack on it's own, at a slightly higher price.  I hope to eventually try the iDSD Mini and I hope to try the Concero HP as a USB Converter to test the difference.  Though I suspect the built in USB of the Mini iDSD will be very good on it's own.


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## Watcherq

I agree more or less with the above posts.  However, iFI seems to want to break into new markets with the iFI brand and honestly, before they came along, there was nothing in the performance + form factor of the micro devices (eg iTube, iCan, etc).  They should continue to try pushing the edge with using FPGA since using them instead of standard DAC can be a competitive advantage.
  
 Since they know the XMOS USB interface very well, they should continue to use it.  Keep the FPGA to render the D/A conversion, filters and DSP functions.  In the case of filters and DSP, they can even make them customizable/loadable, like the FIR filters in Foobar2k and DSP like in JRiver, etc.  This would allow unrivalled customization and personalization.  Of course, product stratification should come in.   May be the nano range allows no customization but the micro range allows for loadable filters and mini range, full customization.  They can move from lower end to higher end FPGAs in order to have more programmability, higher order noise shaper, and more taps (as per Chord's terminology), etc in order to sound "better".
  
 The reason I participated in the Kickstarter I mentioned above was to experiment with the programming environment is to test out using the FPGA + special processor to be Proof of Concept (ignoring the noise in the circuitry) to be a music player.


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## Watcherq

Ok, my Kickstart board that I was talking about finally arrive last week.  Below are the pictures of it.  Note that it as 2 microUSB, a full size network port, microSD slot below and a micro HDMI port, I think.  This baby has a Zynq 7020 chip (the black one in the middle) that has a duo-core ARM and the Artix-7 FPGA (the next gen after the Spartan-6 on the Hugos).  The silvery chip is the proprietary co-processor that has 16 cores.  It has the other stuff for programming like GPIO on it too.  All these for $200 for a production run of a few thousand (less than 5000).
  

  
 The actual size is actually a lot smaller than expected.  As seen below, it is barely larger than the iFI iDAC nano and the Fiio X3 next to it and all three are sitting on top of my Lenovo Helix which is the size of an A4 sheet of paper.  I'm sure in an actual production, a board that does the DAC-only functionalities will be smaller and cheaper.


----------



## EraserXIV

Curious about the power supply that is going to be used in the mini, from what I can gather it seems like it will be using an external power brick of some sort. Will it be of the linear or switching variety? Any other details you can divulge about it would be great too (noise, etc).


----------



## EraserXIV

iFi audio Any news on my previous question about the power supply?


----------



## Vartan

Will Mini iDAC come with integrated iPurifier?


----------



## iFi audio

Hi All,
  
 On the power supply and things, the mini iDSD is still quite a few months away - end of 2014.
  
 Once we have the micro iDSD out which is starting this week, then we can clear the decks.
  
 The next project is the iFi Retro and then mini iDSD come a little after that. So by all means, chime in and we'll speed this up closer to the time!
  
 Thanks


----------



## obsidyen

ifi audio said:


> Hi All,
> 
> On the power supply and things, the mini iDSD is still quite a few months away - end of 2014.
> 
> ...


 
 Might I ask what iFi Retro is? iFi products are getting more interesting everyday.


----------



## technobear

obsidyen said:


> ifi audio said:
> 
> 
> > Hi All,
> ...




The Ear did a short news piece on it:

http://www.the-ear.net/news/ifi-retro-stereo-30

You can find out more about iFi products and developments from their facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/iFiAudio


----------



## audiofrk

Are you considering using the same dac for the mini as the micro or will you be attempting to use the dsd1792a(I believe the micro uses a dsd1793) in quad configuration? 

Also I read that on a different forum that the headphone amp will be a 4watt tubular class A amp but I'm not sure where they got that information from.


----------



## iFi audio

audiofrk said:


> Are you considering using the same dac for the mini as the micro or will you be attempting to use the dsd1792a(I believe the micro uses a dsd1793) in quad configuration?
> 
> Also I read that on a different forum that the headphone amp will be a 4watt tubular class A amp but I'm not sure where they got that information from.


 
  
 Hi,
  
 We prefer to the sonics of the 1793. So nope, the 1792A is not going in.
  
 Thanks


----------



## audiofrk

ifi audio said:


> Hi,
> 
> We prefer to the sonics of the 1793. So nope, the 1792A is not going in.
> 
> Thanks




Ok thanks for the reply is there anything in particular that stands out in the dsd1793


----------



## technobear

audiofrk said:


> ifi audio said:
> 
> 
> > Hi,
> ...




Yes. It's sound quality (as has been stated already many many times) :rolleyes:


----------



## iFi audio

audiofrk said:


> Ok thanks for the reply is there anything in particular that stands out in the dsd1793


 
  
 We covered a lot of this over on the Crowd-Design thread for the micro iDSD.
  
 And just added this today on the nano iDSD thread (go back a few pages and a lot becomes evident)
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/683406/ifi-audio-nano-idsd-announced/690#post_10674238
  
 All these mean we are divulging technology we have developed that is the limit of what we can say without giving away our trade secrets.
  
 Hope you understand we cant say more.


----------



## technobear

EraserXIV just posted these on the micro iDSD thread:






I can see a few features missing here.

Most alarming is the lack of an optical TOSLINK socket. Just about every modern TV, PVR, DVD, Blu-Ray, Set top box, etc. has an optical output. Many of them ONLY have an optical output. BIG mistake to leave this out of a device that is intended for the home.

I also don't see:

 XBASS (level *, ** and *** please)

 3D (and crossfeed please)

 Polarity Invert

 Gain matching of some kind for the headphones

 Filter selection

 Pre-amp bypass

Some of these might be hidden as the silver screw and the gold watsit on the back. It's not clear what those are.

I see the variable XBASS as being completely essential for this device. Otherwise it will just be one more in a sea of hundreds of 'me too' DAC/headphone amps that I'm never gonna buy because they have no bass control. You might argue that anyone who wants tone control will have it on their amp already. I disagree. This device is also a pre-amp and could be connected to a power amp, monoblocks or even active speakers. The XBASS needs to be there.


----------



## iFi audio

technobear said:


> EraserXIV just posted these on the micro iDSD thread:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Cool your boots!
  
 This is only the render of the prototype we had at shows.
  
 Looks like we're gonna run another Crowd-Design thread for this puppy too.
  
 Keep the comments coming because we do read each and every comment.
  
 For sake of completeness, initially, we plan to have:
  
 1) Micro iDSD
  
 2) Micro iCAN
  
 3) Micro iTUBE
  
 They are likely to have some overlap on features such as XBass because we always try to make them modular yet also standalone.
  
 Ta.


----------



## wotef

Wotcher, iFi guys! I currently use the iUSB, iLink, iPurifier, Gemini and Mercury cables (phew) so am a fan of your products.
  
 This thread is getting a bit hard to follow - maybe you could create new crowd-source design threads as appropriate?
  
 I think I read you are planning the mini iTube. I tried the micro iTube but really couldn't give up balanced operation in my system.
  
 So for the mini iTube, here's my wishlist:
 1. balanced and single-ended inputs and outputs
 2. bass management - active crossover & isolated subwoofer outputs!!!
 3. remote control for...everything!
 4. external power supply upgrade option (better than the wall-wart)
 5. keep it cheap 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Cheers


----------



## EraserXIV

ifi audio said:


> For sake of completeness, initially, we plan to have:
> 
> 1) Micro iDSD
> 
> ...


 
  
 I think you mean Mini iDSD, Mini iCAN, and Mini iTUBE 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## audiofrk

If your taking suggestions for the ifi mini line here's mine 

Idsd mini:
 Pure dac, no headphone stage. Focus only on the making the best digital to analog conversion. Switchable digital filters (bit perfect, etc) clean line out (in other words keep doing what your doing for your line out)

Itube:
 Allow tube rolling (while I know that ifi won't Gip us on the tube being able to tube roll will make it so much more competitive and allow us to try to better match our systems), xbass and 3d holographic sound (with selectable quantities) for speakers, digital antidote (if the idsd mini can't fix compressed music short comings)

Ican mini:
 Class a amp, balance inputs and outputs (headphone), xbass an 3d sound for headphones 

Reasoning: I would advice against trying to stuff as much as possible in one device if for no other reason than to keep cost as low as possible. If the saying "the inmates are running the asylum" was true for any company it would be ifi as any suggestions that was given for the micro idsd was seen as a green flag by the amr/ifi engineers to put it in (which don't get me wrong was great and it really made me a fan of the company as you responded to each customer timely), made the device significantly more expensive than its predecessor the idac. Thought all those features did make me think of using the idsd micro in ways I didn't originally, it kind of had a lot of over lap with the original irack setup and I now have little reason to expand to the full rack (though the irack should have some sonic improvements over the idsd micro the jump in cost won't really justify it). Thus I don't really see the reason for this feature stuffing on the desktop version as we have space to build the best setup. If I'm being unclear my thinking goes a little like this I don't want to pay more for the idsd mini to have a headphone section if the ican mini can do it better. I don't want to pay for the xbass and 3d sound out of the line out on the idsd if the iTube can do it better. Hope I made some sense.


----------



## iFi audio

eraserxiv said:


> I think you mean Mini iDSD, Mini iCAN, and Mini iTUBE
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yes, it is pretty hectic right now.
  
 Nice spot!


----------



## Esprit

Will have the Mini iDSD the same or better specs than Micro iDSD?
 Reading post #2 it seems to me "limited".
 I'm thinking to buy NOW a Micro in order to upgrade to Mini (only if I'll get from Mini "DSD512 & PCM768").


----------



## MLGrado

esprit said:


>


 
  
  
 I would take any previously posted specs about the mini with a grain of salt. 
  
 My understanding is the digital engine in the mini will be very similar to the Micro.   Therefore as the mini will have the same or similar digital hardware and programming, I think it is pretty safe to assume it will support at LEAST as many formats as the Micro.  
  
 The real difference between the Micro and the Mini, as far as sound quality is concerned, is likely to be things like upgraded power supplies and analog parts.


----------



## EraserXIV

As far as the digital end goes, the Mini should be designed around a dual mono configuration with 2 DAC chips per channel (as opposed to the micro which has 1 DAC chip per channel). But yes I agree, the meat of it is going to be a more robust power supply and a lot more room for better analog components.


----------



## MLGrado

Eraser,
  
 yup.  
  
  
 Personally I can't wait.  An "iFi styled" desktop based DAC in the 1 to 2k price range is exactly what I am looking for.


----------



## Esprit

mlgrado said:


> I would take any previously posted specs about the mini with a grain of salt.


 
 Is this a fake? (I'm asking, I don't know...)


----------



## technobear

They are prototypes.


----------



## bibo01

When is the Mini supposed to be released?
 Thanks


----------



## iFi audio

bibo01 said:


> When is the Mini supposed to be released?
> Thanks


 

 Hi,
  
 Rocky Mountain Audio Fest - 10 October.
  
 It is coming after the iFi Retro system.
  
 Thanks.


----------



## bibo01

ifi audio said:


> Hi,
> 
> Rocky Mountain Audio Fest - 10 October.
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks.
 Is there a recommended price as well?


----------



## KmanChu

ifi audio said:


> Hi,
> 
> Rocky Mountain Audio Fest - 10 October.
> 
> ...


 
  
 October? Damn you guys are moving! That is probably my final destination for a desktop headphone dac. Would be really curious to know the US price for that!


----------



## john57

Gee, it looks like IFI just recently decided to be at the RMAF and join with Avatar Acoustics as well!


----------



## iFi audio

john57 said:


> Gee, it looks like IFI just recently decided to be at the RMAF and join with Avatar Acoustics as well!


 

 Hi,

  
 Avatar Acoustics (iFi: North America) has two tables in the centre of the CanJam. We will be near Audeze and next to Alclair.

  
 So lots happening and some nice stuff to see.
  
 The iFi Retro ~US$2,000.
 The mini series ~ US$1,500 for the iDSD or iCAN.
  
 As soon as we finalise the specs we will update you guys.

  
 Thanks.


----------



## roamling

ifi audio said:


> Hi,
> 
> 
> 
> ...




will the mini line have a choice of colour like black or silver?


----------



## bobsherman

ifi audio said:


> Hi,
> 
> 
> Avatar Acoustics (iFi: North America) has two tables in the centre of the CanJam. We will be near Audeze and next to Alclair.
> ...


 
  
 Hi,
  
 Was the original target for the IDSD Mini closer to $1000? I think much more may become a bit prohibitive. I know this is the headphone world... But what about more of a home system and less of a phone featured DAC? You covered the market with the Nano and the Mini, other that being a desktop unit will there be that much of an improvement over the Mini. I would think a DAC with one of Mr. T's great PS and super discrete line output stages to compete with the big boys would be killer.
  
 regards
 Bob


----------



## Stereolab42

Yeah, $1500 is an odd price point. The only major advantage the Mini would seem to offer over the Micro would be balanced out. Was also thinking $1000 would be better, placing it solidly underneath the Oppo HA-1.


----------



## EraserXIV

For $1500 I sure hope they are using a quality linear power supply (even if it is housed in a separate chasis) and not a wall wart.


----------



## calluna

I thought the price would be in 1000 range too... I'm a little bit confused. The new price is higher than Yulong Sabre DA8 and it is Mytek's price range...
 Micro is 499 so Mini must be very different for additional 1k... more different than we know so far from this thread.


----------



## MLGrado

Disclaimer:  All questions of pricing, features, release date, etc. should be directed to iFi.  What follows is strictly my thoughts and opinions.  
  
  
 I wouldn't panic just yet.  Product is still in prototype/development stages.   Therefore, I wouldn't be too concerned _*yet*_ about the price.  
  
  
 But as far as performance is concerned, and speaking of the Mytek price range, I believe the Mini will definitely be playing in that performance league.  So, yes, iFi could charge that kind of money and still be price/performance competitive in the market.  
  
 But again, let's wait a bit before getting too worried about price.  As for me, the mini series will likely be my last purchase for quite a long time, when it comes to DAC's...


----------



## KmanChu

With all of the price hand-wringing I think people are underestimating what iFi is capable of. Remember this is the AMR design team. Here are the iFi products I own:
  
 iUSB Power
 micro iCAN
 micro iDAC
 micro iDSD
 Gemini cable
 iPurifier
  
 I don't feel that a single one of these is overpriced. In fact most of them (especially the iDSD and, yes, the forgotten iDAC) are actually some of the best deals I've ever come across in audio. As you go up in price then, yes, the deminishing returns curve takes its bite, but iFi has demonstrated an ability to actually give you a lot for your money. If the mini costs $1500 then I suspect it will be pretty stupendous and worth every penny.
  
 Edit: typo


----------



## AudioELF

As this is a desktop system ... is there any chance of a remote control for input selection and volume?


----------



## Esprit

mlgrado said:


> But as far as performance is concerned, and speaking of the Mytek price range, I believe the Mini will definitely be playing in that performance league.  So, yes, iFi could charge that kind of money and still be price/performance competitive in the market.


 
 If Mini will have the same specs of the Micro it could be better than Mytek...


----------



## calluna

In this way, if Mini will have the same specs of the Micro...  the price could be the same 
 The price range problem arises from what iFi said some time ago ( ~1k not ~1,5k - for example from Stereophile: " Inside, there is aptX Bluetooth streaming, 4 Burr Brown DACs, and 4 filters set by the user. Retail price will be under $1,000 and it should arrive sometime this quarter according to the distributor, Avatar Acoustics. " ).
 I have iDac and i'm thinking of Mini but if SQ will be ~ the same as Micro and the price x3 = I will take Micro. 
 At the end it is iFi's pricing policy so they have the last word


----------



## Esprit

Mini is a desktop DAC with balanced output.
 (I own a Mytek and a Yulong)


----------



## BillsonChang007

Yet another feature packed box from iFi


----------



## KmanChu

Release is supposedly quite soon right? Any updates on the mini series?


----------



## kugino

kmanchu said:


> Release is supposedly quite soon right? Any updates on the mini series?


 
 end of this year at the earliest. most likely next year, from what i understand.


----------



## RadioWonder737

So,it looks like we may need an adaptor like this one for the Mini iDSD... Especially those of us who already have pricey USB cables...
  
http://www.monoprice.com/Product?c_id=103&cp_id=10314&cs_id=1031403&p_id=8177&seq=1&format=2
  
 Or maybe purchase this "Starlight® USB 3.0" cable...
http://www.wireworldcable.co.uk/products/114.html


----------



## Neogeo333

Almost pulled the trigger on the Micro iDSD.  Glad i saw this thread.  But really? 1000.00 more than the Micro for same level of performance plus some fancy wireless BT connection and display?  I wish there was a simple version of it, just give a me a standalone DAC with USB that handles DSD with RCA and XLR out.  Why cram more fancy stuff at a desktop DAC ever going to need?  Clean power, short connections and simple design will sound better than adding extra stuff that can alter or diminish sound.  I call it iSimple and since its a stripped version let say 500.00?


----------



## softsound

I partially aggree. I am sure that iDSD mini will worth its' money, but i am sure there is a way to trickle down the price by cutting out some features.
 For example, practically all iDSD DACs ( iDSD nano, iDSD mini and iDSD micro) have a headphone amplifer, a 3D circuit, and a battery.
 Some of us, don't *ever* listen to the headphones.
 Really I don't care about ommitting the battery (if the sound is as good with any usual external power supply) if the DAC is not portable (from the self-powered point of view).
 Thus, some would instead prefer a much cheaper reference smallish desktop product with an ordinary external power supply, quality capacitors for current stabilisation, a femto crystal, a usb-in, a coaxial spdif in, an HDMI-in, playback of all formats (DSD,DXD,CD,mp3, etc), maybe X-bass, and 4 Burr Brown chips pcm 1793 instead of 2.
 That solution would dust a lot of DACs out there, and at the same time should be much cheaper than it is now, increasing the performance/value ratio even further.


----------



## softsound

By the way, i forgot to mention that the RCA-out is probably preferable at 2,5 Volts RMS out than at 2 Volts RMS, because the sound is more dynamic and also because it is easier to connect the DAC more efficiently to a wider variety of amplifiers.


----------



## technobear

softsound said:


> By the way, i forgot to mention that the RCA-out is probably preferable at 2,5 Volts RMS out than at 2 Volts RMS, because the sound is more dynamic and also because it is easier to connect the DAC more efficiently to a wider variety of amplifiers.




Please explain!

Most power amps need between 0.5 and 1.0 Volts for maximum output so 2.0 Volts is already overkill.

Most of the 2.0 Volts put out by typical DACs and CD players is attenuated away by a volume control for normal listening.

What do you mean by 'more dynamic'?

What do you mean by 'more efficiently'?


----------



## softsound

Unfortunately, not all power amplifiers work best at 2 volts RMS. It depends on their input sensitivity. To cover for this possibility, it is better to be an overkill, than an insufficient sound in dB level.
_*This is not a new idea. And certainly not mine. *_A lot of firms use more than 2 Volts RMS in their DACs.
 Example : :Quad (2,5 volts RMS), Hegel (2,5 volts RMS), M2Tech (2,7 volts RMS), and so on.
 I have listened to M2Tech Vaughan and I assure you that it is very dynamic (being able to make you hear from the quietest low-level detail of musical information, to the loudest possible full detail of musical information). Thus, one can hear better musical details, and the sound comes closer to the "real" sound.
 More efficiently, means that when you are using any amplifier, in the case of a DAC with 2,5 volts RMS out, you will have an overall  louder sound in dB than with 2 volts RMS. So, you have a louder sound with less power consumption for the same amplifier at the same level of the volume knob of the amplifier, and at the same time you have a more dynamic sound.
 I will give you an example that i have tested myself with my own amplifier :
 Write your favourite music in your computer with Media Monkey for example, or with any programm that can modulate the level (in dB) of the recording. Write 2 discs (2 CDs) : One with with 88 dB and one with 94 dB. Then listen to both separately, and decide which one you like most, and also which one of the 2 is more dynamic-louder.
  
 I suspect that apart from other reasons(better shielded being the XLR cable, less passive electronics used in the DAC's output stage for the XLR out, possibly for other reasons too), one major reason XLR sounds better than the RCA cable, is that XLR is 4 Volts RMS, whilst RCA is usually 2 Volts RMS. I may be wrong, but this is my belief.
 But, if iFi audio would provide also an XLR out, then i am not sure that the product i am talking about would keep a really low cost.
 That is why i asked a product that provides 2,5 Volts RMS through RCA out. It will provide a more dynamic sound, and will concommitanly save energy( produce louder music with less "turning on" of the volume knob of the amplifier).
 RCA out will have probably also the advantage of sounding warmer than the XLR i guess, which would be preferable. On the other hand, 2,5 Volts RMS is not a heavy burden for any amplifier. I do not know any amplifier that plays bad because 2,5 Volts are too much for it (i could be wrong of course- i do not know all amplifier brands).
 One alternative, would be the solution that M2Tech uses for a dynamic sound in M2tech Yound DSD. They use only XLR out for an output, but they also provide a long enough cable that converts XLR to RCA, which could directly enter in any amplifier. An XLR of 4 volts reduced to an RCA output of 2,5 volts RMS would be good.
 A product with only an XLR out would be useless without a converter cable, because 90% of amplifier brands, do not have an XLR in input. At least not in the price range we're talking about. How many amplifiers in the range of 200-500 dollars do you know out there? Almost zero is the answer. Imagine someone buying a 500$ iSimple as Neogeo333 says, and then imagine being obliged to bying a 2000$ amplifier to find an XLR in. That is irrational. There definately has to be an XLR 4 volts to RCA 2,5 volts in such a DAC, otherwise the DAC itself would be useless.


----------



## technobear

I hardly know where to begin but to all newbies reading the above post, you can safely disregard all of it as RUBBISH.


----------



## softsound

I can not imagine that so many Great manufacturers producing DACs with RCA out >2 volts RMS are rubish.
 I have named only a few here. I could easily fill a page only with the products that have such a feature. See for yourself.
 For example *Arcam irDAC *(a UK product)  has an RCA out of 2,3 Volts RMS mesured in various tests from independent laboratories.
 Since you are from UK, *Quad Elite cd player *has *2,4 Volts RMS RCA out,* and 4,8 Volts RMS balanced.
 http://www.quad-hifi.co.uk/Uploads/File/Manuals/MNL-Elite%20Series.pdf
 But also, other great and well respected companies from other countries.
 Such as the *Electocompaniet's ECD2* upsampling DAC has RCA out 2,3 Volts RMS as you see. Specifications :Upsampling DAC,inputs: TOSlink 24/96, S/PDIF coaxial, Asynchronous USB 24/192, Output: *RCA 2.3Vrms* / XLR 4.6mV,Noise floor (20Hz-20kHz): <-145dB, Frequency Response: 0.5Hz-48kHz,THD+N: <0.0005%
*Teac Esoteric D07 DAC has*

*Analog Output* Output terminalsXLR/RCAMaximum Output level*2.2Vrms *(1 kHz, full scale, 10k&ohmFrequency response 
5 Hz to 55 kHz
 Signal-to-Noise Ratio (S/N)115 dBTotal harmonic distortion0.001% (1kHz)*Digital Input*XLR,RCA,Optical, Async USB 24bit/192kHzPower consumption7 WattWeight10.4 kg (21 lbs)
  
*T&A DAC 8*

 *Specifications*
  
 _D/A converter_
 32-Bit, 384 kHz Sigma Delta, 8-times oversampling, double-mono-quadruple
 _Analogue filter_
 3rd order phase linear Besselfilter, switchable 60 kHz or 120 kHz
 _Frequency response_
 2 Hz - 20 / 22 kHz  (44.1 / 48.0 kSps)
  
 2 Hz - 40 kHz  (88.2 / 96.0 kSps)
  
 2 Hz - 80 kHz  (176.4 / 192.0 kSps)
 _Total harmonic distortion_
 < 0,001 %
 _Signal noise (A)_
 116 dB
 _Channel separation_
 110 dB
 _Analogue outputs_
  
 _coaxial (Cinch)_
 *2,5 Veff / 22 Ohm fixed. 0 ... 2,5 Veff variable*
 _Symetrical (XLR)_
 5,0 Veff / 22 Ohm fixed. 0 ... 5,0 Veff variable
 _Digital output_
 1 x coax, IEC 60958 (CDDA/LPCM)
 _Digital inputs_
 SP/DIF (16 - 24 Bit):
  
 4 x co-ax, 1 x BNC, 1 x AES/EBU up to 192/24, 1 x TOS-Link up to 96/24
  
 1 x USB with USB Audio Class 1 (USB full Speed) up to 96/24, adaptive mode
  
 and USB Audio Class 2 (USB high Speed) up to 192/24 asynchronous mode (drivers available)

  
*TotalDAC D1*
  
R2R DAC with volume control and headphone out.
Also available with active 2 or 3 way crossover.
 
 192KHz asynchronous XMOS USB, optical, RCA and AES-EBU digital inputs, selectable from a remote control.
*3.3Vrms max RCA*, XLR analog output and 32ohm-600ohm headphone amplifier.
 digital volume control, adjusted by a remote control and an OLED display.
 phase polarity selected by remote control.
 non-oversampling FIR digital filter activated or disactivated by remote control.
  
*Another UK company, named Cyrus*, has most of her cd-players (for example cyrus cd-i) are above 2volts rms(2,1 volts rms) and dacs are pre-dacs are above 2 volts rms. 
*Another UK company, named NAD*, produces between many well-respected products also the C 546BEE CD Player,  
 http://nadelectronics.com/products/cd-players/C-546BEE-CD-Player#heading-downloads, has 2,2 Volts RMS.
 I have heard it, and i never remember the voltage to be too much for the amplifier. It is awarded in 2013.
  
_*Some of these are really reference products*_, way better than ifi DSDmini will ever become.
 I am not saying that all reference products have 2,5 Volts RMS out.
 What i am saying instead, is that the 2,5 Volts rms out idea is definitely not rubbish.
 I hope you are not implying that some of the greatest manufacturers in the world having products that have obtained rave reviews, are stupid.
 I've stated my opinion clearly, and I believe I have backed up my story more than sufficiently, so, I will stop this discussion now for ever.
 Good afternoon everybody and to UK in particular.


----------



## technobear

softsound said:


> I can not imagine that so many Great manufacturers producing DACs with RCA out >2 volts RMS are rubish.




It's called marketing!

When a DAC with 2 Volts and a DAC with 2.1 Volts are demonstrated in a hi-fi shop, the one with 2.1 Volts will sound louder and therefore better (because louder always sounds better to the average punter). These manufacturers are just playing the numbers game.

There is no technical reason for any RCA output to be higher than 2 Volts.

You also have no understanding of what a Volume Control does. The position of the Volume Control does not dictate the power output or power consumption of an amplifier. The Volume Control attenuates the input signal. That's all it does. For a given level of sound output, the Volume Control will need to be set lower for a 2.5 Volt input than it would for a 2 Volt input. This does NOT mean that the amplifier is using less power. It only means that the input signal requires greater attenuation. The power consumption depends only on the output power. If the sound is louder then MORE power is being consumed and it matters not in the slightest whether the input is 2 Volts, 0.2 Volts or 20 Volts. For a given sound level, the power consumption will be the same. Only the position of the Volume Control (i.e. the amount of attenuation of the input signal) changes.

Dynamics and loudness are not the same thing. Dynamics refers to the difference in level between the loud bits and the quiet bits. Most modern hi-fi already has dynamic range greatly exceeding that of any recorded music, let alone that of the human ear so there is no advantage to increasing it further. Technically using XLR balanced circuits does give an additional 3dB of dynamic range but it is unlikely most people will hear it. Balanced can sound better because it eliminates the effects of the cables and connections and any EMI or RFI that gets in. However good quality RCA cables reduce this difference to almost nothing over the lead lengths required by most hi-fi systems.


----------



## rickyleelee

technobear said:


> It's called marketing!
> 
> When a DAC with 2 Volts and a DAC with 2.1 Volts are demonstrated in a hi-fi shop, the one with 2.1 Volts will sound louder and therefore better (because louder always sounds better to the average punter). These manufacturers are just playing the numbers game.
> 
> ...


 
  
Concur with Mr Technobear. There are some manufacturers who have all the way up to 6v on the XLR outputs. Holy moly. A "side" benefit was during in-shop demos - it "showed" how much better bass (fill in audio superlatives here) in comparison to the other product that had 2v or 3v output was. Amazing, that product sold really well. Let's face it - who of knows how to properly level match? Has your dealer ever level matched in a shop? Even done rudimentary style with the blasted iPhone and decibel meter? Erm.......


----------



## Esprit

Too many volts: http://mytekdigital.com/download_library/Stereo192-dsd-dac_Design_Philosophy.pdf


----------



## Esprit

No news about the Mini?


----------



## HalidePisces

ifi audio said:


> bibo01 said:
> 
> 
> > When is the Mini supposed to be released?
> ...




So... um, it's past 10 October now. Any new stuff to share with us about the Mini?


----------



## jexby

Seemed the PCB boards for mini had a bit of a delay last week (IIRC) and there was no prototype possible in time for RMAF.


----------



## Esprit

Any news about "real" specs?


----------



## vortrex

Any news on the release date?


----------



## HiFiRobot

And what is the expected pricepoint for this one?


----------



## iFi audio

Hi all,

 Major case of feature creep - so we are going to aim for prototype for CES and then launch in Mar.


  
 When we have anything close to soup, we'll put it up here.


  
 The next new product is the Retro and that is coming in November.


  
 Okay, not fully soup, but here you go as we're in a good mood today!






  

*iDSD mini*    *Fully-Balanced DAC (USB/SPDIF/AES-EBU/Bluetooth)*   Formats:44.1/48/88.2/96/176.4/192/352.8/384/705.6/768KHz PCM    2.8/3.1/5.6/6.2/11.2/12.4/22.4/24.8MHz DSD    DXD   Filter:PCM: Standard/Minimum Phase digital, Bitperfect 1, Bitperfect 2; selectable   DSD: Standard/Extended Range/Minimal analogue, selectable    DXD: Bitperfect Processing, fixed analogue filter   DAC:Quad Core Dual Mono Bit Perfect DSD, PCM & DXD DAC by Burr Brown in current output mode (4-DAC Chip; 8-Channel; 16-Signals)Clock:                            Ultra low jitter Crystal Clock (rms jitter < 300 Femtoseconds)   Analogue Stages:Balanced fully discrete Class A - Non-Feedback I/V conversion by single BISS Supertransistor Balanced fully discrete Class A - Non-Feedback Line output buffer using J-Fets and BISS Supertransistors High Speed current mode Class A Headphone Buffer with balanced fully discrete Class A - Non-Feedback input buffer using J-Fets and BISS SupertransistorsVolume Control:Balanced 4-Way precision analogue by ALPS, Remote Control, can be bypassed for Line OutsAudio Path passives:Tantalum Oxide Thin Film thin film surface mounted resistors,    TDK high stability C0G surface mounted capacitors    Panasonic PolyPhenylene Sulfide stacked film surface mounted capacitors   Elna Silmic II Electrolytic Capacitors   Input: (selectable)USB 3.0    compatible with iPhone,iPod, iPad and Android Devices USB-OTG#    SPDIF RCA/Optical (only PCM up to 192KHz)   AES-EBU Balanced    BNC SPDIF Unbalanced    Bluetooth with aptX   Audio System Support:PC - ASIO 2.2, WASAPI, Kernel Streaming (KS), Directsound    Mac - Core Audio   OutputXLR True Balanced Audio (Output adjustable 4/10V @ 0dBFS [+14dBu/+22dBu])   Audio RCA (2V/5V @ 0dBFS)    6.3mm Headphone 4V/10V maximum output    Headphone Output Power 4,000mW/16R max.   Dynamic Range:TBD   THD &N (Line)TBD   THD &N (HP 100mW)TBD   Output Power (16R):> 4000mW   PowerSource:External DC 14V (compatible with 12V Battery systems)   Power Consumption:< 15W   Size:220mm x 62mm X 210mm (W X H X D including feet, knobs and connectors) 





  
 Cheers.


----------



## hugoboss

Nice specification. Seems like the mini using eksternal adaptor. Just my two cents, chamge the eksternal adaptor withbuiltin power supply with iec connection


----------



## tf1216

hugoboss said:


> Nice specification. Seems like the mini using eksternal adaptor. Just my two cents, chamge the eksternal adaptor withbuiltin power supply with iec connection


 
  
 If the power supply was built into the Mini iDSD that would disallow folks from powering the DAC from a battery.  Maybe a bunch of us early adopters could find a group buy on a battery setup for the Mini.


----------



## BillsonChang007

Indeed a very impressive tech spec!


----------



## KmanChu

An external power supply isn't a bad thing. Lumin, Auralic Aries, and many others have external power supplies. Audio Research has done it with their top level preamps. It helps keep the supply noise away from the critical bits inside. It would also be in the same spirit of iFi's previous products which have an external power supply upgrade (iUSB Power, perhaps the most important of their first products for widespread adoption beyond head-fi.) Maybe it will be a (very good) SMPS or maybe it will be a linear supply. My guess is it will ship with a very good universal SMPS, but it will still allow you to easily insert your own excellent LPS (or as they said, a battery supply.) SMPS can be truly excellent, Linn uses them in most of their products, and NAD is using them in their Master Series products. 
  
 At any rate, it looks super cool and it may well be enough to keep me from purchasing something else in the meantime. I have been very close to purchasing an Ayre Qb-9DSD but just haven't because I want to see what iFi has up their sleeve. My hope is that the mini iDSD will compete with the likes of the Ayre and Auralic Vega, but do it at half the price and with way more flexibility. I realize this may be a bit unrealistic, but hey I can hope right? Every iFi product I've owned to date (which is most of their lineup: iDAC, iUSB, micro iCAN, micro iDSD, Gemini, iPurifier) has been a very good value. I expect the mini iDSD to be nothing short of stellar.


----------



## iFi audio

kmanchu said:


> An external power supply isn't a bad thing. Lumin, Auralic Aries, and many others have external power supplies. Audio Research has done it with their top level preamps. It helps keep the supply noise away from the critical bits inside. It would also be in the same spirit of iFi's previous products which have an external power supply upgrade (iUSB Power, perhaps the most important of their first products for widespread adoption beyond head-fi.) Maybe it will be a (very good) SMPS or maybe it will be a linear supply. My guess is it will ship with a very good universal SMPS, but it will still allow you to easily insert your own excellent LPS (or as they said, a battery supply.) SMPS can be truly excellent, Linn uses them in most of their products, and NAD is using them in their Master Series products.
> 
> 
> At any rate, it looks super cool and it may well be enough to keep me from purchasing something else in the meantime. I have been very close to purchasing an Ayre Qb-9DSD but just haven't because I want to see what iFi has up their sleeve. My hope is that the mini iDSD will compete with the likes of the Ayre and Auralic Vega, but do it at half the price and with way more flexibility. I realize this may be a bit unrealistic, but hey I can hope right? Every iFi product I've owned to date (which is most of their lineup: iDAC, iUSB, micro iCAN, micro iDSD, Gemini, iPurifier) has been a very good value. I expect the mini iDSD to be nothing short of stellar.


 

 Hi,
  
 Keep the comments a coming.
  
 We dont release anything until we can pass our own internal standards - we then let a few people test it such as the iCLUB members.
  
 So dont worry - wait till you try the DP-777 SE! It was at RMAF being fed into the micro iCAN!


----------



## bjas406

Will the mini idsd include the built in iPurifier just as the micro does?


----------



## BillsonChang007

bjas406 said:


> Will the mini idsd include the built in iPurifier just as the micro does?




Hope it do!


----------



## Esprit

kmanchu said:


> An external power supply isn't a bad thing.


 
 You are right: a linear power supply like this, with a very low ripple, is better than esoteric products... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
 P.S. There is always the possibility of using battery pack (eg: M2Tech, Lynx, etc...)


----------



## Esprit

tf1216 said:


> Maybe a bunch of us early adopters could find a group buy on a battery setup for the Mini.


 
 A "mini" option and upgrade


----------



## Esprit

ifi audio said:


> SPDIF RCA/Optical (only PCM up to 192KHz), only active if USB disconnected


 
 Do we need to unplug the USB cable every time we want to use the toslink (eg: with a sat decoder...)?


----------



## iFi audio

esprit said:


> Do we need to unplug the USB cable every time we want to use the toslink (eg: with a sat decoder...)?


 

 Hi,
  
 Misprint alert! Thanks for spotting that.
  
 It has an input selector.
  
 Cheers.


----------



## Esprit

ifi audio said:


> Misprint alert! Thanks for spotting that.


 
 Edit your post 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 http://www.head-fi.org/t/702376/ifi-audio-mini-desktop-line-discussion-thread/105#post_10985379


----------



## iFi audio

esprit said:


> Edit your post
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Hi,
  
 Done. Thanks!


----------



## Esprit

I still read this: *"only active if USB disconnected"* and I have problems to understand this statement (if you say you have edited your post..)


----------



## john57

It does not say that. Your browser might been be showing a cache version. Refresh the  page and  it should read okay. previous post Edited by iFi audio - Today at 12:34 am


----------



## Esprit

He  previously wrote "done" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Now it's done (after my last post and nothing to do with the cache...).


----------



## tf1216

Is anyone else aching to see the Mini iDSD in person?  Maybe I have had too much coffee this morning but I am waiting on pins and needles for this product like it was a Nelson Pass designed amplifier.


----------



## labjr

ifi audio said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Major case of feature creep - so we are going to aim for prototype for CES and then launch in Mar.
> 
> ...


 
 Hello ifi,
  
 Is there any reason not to do a bipolar supply and get rid of the electrolytic capacitors in the signal path?


----------



## iFi audio

labjr said:


> Hello ifi,
> 
> Is there any reason not to do a bipolar supply and get rid of the electrolytic capacitors in the signal path?


 

 Hi,

  
 Apologies for the slightly delay as we had to ask Thorsten & co but also, there we are not able to divulge all at this moment in time.

  
 But here you go:

  
*SmartPower – does what it says on the tin* 
Short Answer
 It has bipolar power supplies, just like the iDSD micro. There are no electrolytic cap's in the signal path.


Long Answer
 It also does away with any chip or discrete Op-Amp's. The analogue stages are fully discrete, using a circuit that is "NOPA" (Not an OP-Amp) but pure single ended Class-A, of course doubled up for balanced operation.

  
 The actual iDSD mini will have a TWO bipolar power supplies;
 - a lower voltage one for the headphone and line drivers, to limit how much power is burned up and
 - a higher voltage one for the analogue stages to maximise dynamic range.

  
 Nice to have dedicated power supplies optimised for each section!

  
 We use modern very high speed "Stealth" DC-DC converters, as in the micro. These provide a much cleaner power than any linear power supply (audiophile LPSs included), as any noise they produce is in the MHz range, where correct PCB Layout and simple LC filtering can eliminate such noise well. These "Stealth" converters are characterised by low noise and output impedance in the audio band (20Hz-20kHz) same as the best low noise regulators and they switch at frequencies exceeding 1MHz.

  
 This is a very different approach from classic switchers that normally operate somewhere from 30k to 100kHz (read: close to the audible range), have regulation bandwidth of usually only a few 100Hz and have significant impact on audio circuitry together with problems of getting enough filtering. Common switching DC-DC converters are usually designed to have 10-100mV noise on the output at the switching frequency and tend to have many high harmonics, creating the RFI/EMI problems commonly associated with them.

  
 In a power supply for an audio device we ideally do not have the LC filter acting in the audio band as the changes of impedance will cause audible effects. So if we use a 20KHz LC filter, it will only attenuate 40KHz by 12dB and 100kHz by around 30dB. This is insufficient to keep smps noise away from audio circuitry, 10mV at 100kHz will still leave 0.3mV 100kHz noise, 100mV of 40kHz noise will leave 25mV!

  
 On the other hand our Stealth DC-DC converters are usually designed to have <= 10mV noise on the output at the switching frequency with few high harmonics. For a 1.28MHz frequency DC-DC converter and the same LC filter as before with a cutoff above 20Khz, noise is attenuated 72dB, so 10mV noise (as much as we ever allow) will become 2.5 microvolt, or 0.0025mV or 0.0000025V. Yes this is 118dB below a 2V signal! So the power supply plus first filter has noise levels at frequencies below 1MHz that is low enough for > 19-Bit resolution (the powersupply, not the complete DAC itself)!
 And we never use only a single layer of filtering, instead we use additional highly advanced zero feedback discrete regulators with a bandwidth of several MHz, which remove another 40dB -60dB (100 to 1,000 times) of the noise. So in our actual designs any noise left from the DC-DC conversion is below the measurement limits of any but the most extreme test gear.

  
 This kind of performance is very difficult to attain with ANY form of LPS or SMPS and of course, it requires rigorous and extreme design in all areas, at the very cutting edge of technology.

  
 It is also worth mentioning that as we implemented bipolar PSU on the iDSD micro, this was one of the key problems we faced, how to make this work well enough for prime time... this was documented over on the Crowd-Designed thread.
 Using such advanced technology allows us to take one incoming DC Voltage (which may even be from a battery but can also be from a fairly noisy SMPS) and to generate as many bipolar and single polarity rails as our design requires, with noise levels that approach our iUSB Power or indeed many a battery.


----------



## labjr

Very interesting! Thank you for the thorough explanation!


----------



## Abra

Ifi, thank you for the information. But ...
 I have got a micro iDSD + iUSB + GEMINI for a five day trial period. And I have to say, I was not very impressed by the iDSD as a stand-alone DAC in my home stereo system. It was not especially bad, but replacing it's preamp with my system's pre, and adding the iUSB to it, I liked it much more. Annoying noises removed from the highs, clean but not lean sounding, good balance beetween detailed and meaty sound, excellent rithm, floating with the music etc., I liked the micro iDSD + iUSB set much more, than the iDSD dac alone. 
 There was only one serious objection on the micro iDSD + IUSB voice. While it lively follows every vibration of the music, a bit to swiftly. Slightly lacks the calm of power, stability . But at this price, this can be easily forgiven. 
 Because the micro is not specially designed to a home stereo system (I had problems with the "phd" power supply handling), I decided to wait for the mini.
 I think to target something similar PS for the mini as the micro has is not a good idea. Instead of approaching the iUSB, exceed it please. The mini is a higher positioned device than the micro set, isn't it? A better PS, with the stability of the big boy DACs?


----------



## tf1216

Hi Abra, what DAC do you currently use?


----------



## Abra

Currently I'm rather in the analogue domain. I have Kuzma Stabi turntable with Van Den Hul Colibri pickup, Clearadio disc washing machine. I also have a Marantz 10B tuner.
 The only digital souerce I have is an old Philips CD-304 cd player. Modified with Bendix 6900 and RCA Nuvistor tubes, Black Gates, tantal resistors, Van den Hul internal wireing and in many other way I don't remember.
 Now it's the time to change to computer audio. Tired of turning discs, cleaning pickup, washing vinyl. It's hard, but not impossible to find an appropriate DAC matching my taste. 
 After testing more than a dozen of different DACs, I found two of them would be appropriate. The iDSD is the second. Musiically at least. In functionality and price it's a clear winner. I hope the mini will outperform both of them.


----------



## john57

_Tired of turning discs, cleaning pickup, washing vinyl_
  
 Also tired of hearing the vinyl slowly deteriorate each time I play it. Scratches, click and pops no more.  Have one turntable but have not used it for quite some time.
 We will see how the mini iDSD will turn out.


----------



## iFi audio

abra said:


> Currently I'm rather in the analogue domain. I have Kuzma Stabi turntable with Van Den Hul Colibri pickup, Clearadio disc washing machine. I also have a Marantz 10B tuner.
> The only digital souerce I have is an old Philips CD-304 cd player. Modified with Bendix 6900 and RCA Nuvistor tubes, Black Gates, tantal resistors, Van den Hul internal wireing and in many other way I don't remember.
> Now it's the time to change to computer audio. Tired of turning discs, cleaning pickup, washing vinyl. It's hard, but not impossible to find an appropriate DAC matching my taste.
> After testing more than a dozen of different DACs, I found two of them would be appropriate. The iDSD is the second. Musiically at least. In functionality and price it's a clear winner. I hope the mini will outperform both of them.


 

 Hi,
  
 Understood.
  
 We like vinyl a lot too and have the iPhono+iTube.
  
 For sure, the micro iDSD setup will not usurp the Kuzma setup which is pretty high-flying. We use Garrard 301, Linn LP12 among others.
  
 Maybe the Mini iDSD or the AMR DP-777 SE - best try them in your system and see how they fit.
  
 Thanks.


----------



## Abra

You can do it surely, if you want. I wish you to develop an even better product than the micro iDSD. Thanks.


----------



## iFi audio

abra said:


> You can do it surely, if you want. I wish you to develop an even better product than the micro iDSD. Thanks.


 

 Hi,
  
 Google AMR DP-777...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 There is a Head-Fi thread on here somewhere...


----------



## diamondears

Mike,





ifi audio said:


> Hi,
> 
> Google AMR DP-777...
> 
> There is a Head-Fi thread on here somewhere...


 

Mike, do you have existing desktops with HP outs?

When are the minis coming out?

Cheers.


----------



## diamondears

DP-777 + micro iCAN = mini iDSD?


----------



## iFi audio

diamondears said:


> DP-777 + micro iCAN = mini iDSD?


 

 Hi,
  
 No desktop components as yet.
  
 This is where the mini line will come in.
  
 The mini iDSD is the first of this.
  
 It will be really neat.


----------



## BillsonChang007

ifi audio said:


> Hi,
> 
> No desktop components as yet.
> 
> ...




Something I learn: when iFi says that it is going to be really neat, it is really going to be something impressive


----------



## bjas406

Will the mini idsd include the built in iPurifier just as the micro does?


----------



## Abra

By chance I have found a Lapizator device to sell just near the city, and the selecting my first USB DAC project ended abruptly. Good luck everybody with the Mini.
 I think I have to change to the Lampi topic.


----------



## diamondears

IFi,

How's development on this? Would still push through? When's release? Been waiting for an iFi balanced out. That would be great. 

Cheers.


----------



## iFi audio

diamondears said:


> IFi,
> 
> How's development on this? Would still push through? When's release? Been waiting for an iFi balanced out. That would be great.
> 
> Cheers.


 

 Hi,
  
 It is a coming - we have not divulged a few special aspects for announcement closer to when it is soup. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 The specs listed a few pages back is all we can give out at the moment.
  
 Should be worth it if we can pull it off.


----------



## freedom01

If the idsd mini has got one balanced xlr at the front (alongside 6.3mm connector) that would be great.


----------



## john57

ifi audio said:


> Hi,
> 
> It is a coming - we have not divulged a few special aspects for announcement closer to when it is soup.
> 
> ...


 
 Great  to know! There is more competition in that price range.


----------



## diamondears

ifi audio said:


> Hi,
> 
> It is a coming - we have not divulged a few special aspects for announcement closer to when it is soup. :wink_face:
> 
> ...




Very looking forward to that. Hopefully it will be soon. Thanks for replying.


----------



## iFi audio

diamondears said:


> Very looking forward to that. Hopefully it will be soon. Thanks for replying.


 

 Hi,

  
 Will be in the early 2015.

  
 We are itching to tell you all but R&D has asked that we "non-disclose" until it is soup.

  
 Stay tuned.


----------



## diamondears

ifi audio said:


> Hi,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 We will. Cheers.


----------



## Esprit

ifi audio said:


> we have not divulged a few special aspects for announcement closer to when it is soup.


 
 We need to know an "hypothetical" price in order to decide what we have to sell: others DACs or home(s)?


----------



## technobear

esprit said:


> ifi audio said:
> 
> 
> > we have not divulged a few special aspects for announcement closer to when it is soup. :wink_face:
> ...




...or kidneys


----------



## iFi audio

esprit said:


> We need to know an "hypothetical" price in order to decide what we have to sell: others DACs or home(s)?


 

 Hi,
  
 The mini iDSD should be around the US$1,500/Euro1,500 (without/with taxes).
  
 Thanks.


----------



## Esprit

Too many taxes here in Europe...


----------



## Esprit

Will we have Asio driver for Mac OS (no DoP for DSD)?


----------



## vortrex

Any plans to make the Mini DSD without the headphone amp functionality?


----------



## technobear

vortrex said:


> Any plans to make the Mini DSD without the headphone amp functionality?




What would be the point? The biggest part of the cost of a component is the casework. The circuit and socket for the headphone amp is only a small part of the cost. Removing it won't make the product significantly cheaper.


----------



## vortrex

technobear said:


> What would be the point? The biggest part of the cost of a component is the casework. The circuit and socket for the headphone amp is only a small part of the cost. Removing it won't make the product significantly cheaper.


 
  
 I was thinking about those who want a quality DSD DAC without all the extras.  Actually, have a base model without any of the add-ons.  Can you post how much the casework and circuit parts costs?  I'm not aware of the prices.


----------



## technobear

vortrex said:


> technobear said:
> 
> 
> > What would be the point? The biggest part of the cost of a component is the casework. The circuit and socket for the headphone amp is only a small part of the cost. Removing it won't make the product significantly cheaper.
> ...




Most of the analogue circuitry used to drive the headphones is also used to drive the RCA and XLR outputs too. Only the final output buffer could actually be removed along with the headphone sockets.


----------



## vortrex

I see, guess it's not as easy as it sounds then. I suppose I am a minimalist and prefer only to have things in the chain that I intend to use.


----------



## diamondears

vortrex said:


> I was thinking about those who want a quality DSD DAC without all the extras.  Actually, have a base model without any of the add-ons.  Can you post how much the casework and circuit parts costs?  I'm not aware of the prices.


They already have that---AMR DP777.


----------



## vortrex

diamondears said:


> They already have that---AMR DP777.


 
  
 But that does not have DSD capability, right?


----------



## diamondears

vortrex said:


> But that does not have DSD capability, right?


 I thought it does, but checking AMR website it seems you're right. Well, now I'm really waiting for that mini iDSD!... 

Including a HP amp wouldn't hurt. In fact I think that's better (vs external HP amp) because you got a much shorter signal path.


----------



## tf1216

AMR has released an upgrade for their DAC. It allows one to listen to native DSD as well as improves other aspects of an already popular design.


----------



## vortrex

I see the AMR used is still over 2x the price of the Mini.  I'd just go with a Mini in that case.


----------



## diamondears

tf1216 said:


> AMR has released an upgrade for their DAC. It allows one to listen to native DSD as well as improves other aspects of an already popular design.


 Great to know that. Thanks for the info. Cheers.


----------



## tf1216

Sorry guys, I think I'm wrong. No DSD yet with the upgrade.


----------



## rickyleelee

ifi audio said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Major case of feature creep - so we are going to aim for prototype for CES and then launch in Mar.
> 
> ...


 

 I saw the real pieces of both Mini and Retro in a event at the AV Fair in Guangzhou, China.  I like their designs and specs as well as the materials that they use for Retro's case and speaker boxes (are made by bamboo). In particular, the sound quality of Retro (can't test the mini yet) is so sweet and powerful given that the small size. I enclose few pics of Retro I took at the AV Fair for your reference. iFi will launch Retro in Europe first, follow by the USA and Asia. I can't wait to have one


----------



## tf1216

Sweet. Thank you. Any pics of the Mini?


----------



## diamondears

What is iFi retro? What does it do?


----------



## john57

http://ifi-audio.com/audio_blog/the-ifi-retro-makes-an-appearance-at-the-2014-national-audio-show-whittlebury/
  
 That will explain a bit.


----------



## diamondears

john57 said:


> http://ifi-audio.com/audio_blog/the-ifi-retro-makes-an-appearance-at-the-2014-national-audio-show-whittlebury/
> 
> That will explain a bit.


 Thanks. 

Will the Retro integrated amp be offered as a stand-alone like in the pic above of rickyleelee? And what's the price range?


----------



## rickyleelee

tf1216 said:


> Sweet. Thank you. Any pics of the Mini?


 

 Oops, I checked my SD card ad realised that I did't take any pics of the mini 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. Sorry about that! But I can describe that the display screen I like most, it looks like a car dashboard which projects all speed and meter figures, it is a very elegance design I can tell.


----------



## john57

rickyleelee said:


> Oops, I checked my SD card ad realised that I did't take any pics of the mini
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 So does the display uses small holes in the front panel to show status. More than one color?


----------



## rickyleelee

rickyleelee said:


> Oops, I checked my SD card ad realised that I did't take any pics of the mini
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I borrow  2 pics which posted before for your reference.


----------



## tf1216

Thank you rickyleelee!


----------



## rickyleelee

diamondears said:


> What is iFi retro? What does it do?


 

 It's an all-in-one vacuum tube amplifier which supports various inputs, such as turntables/CD player/USB/Bluetooth etc.
 check this out
www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIfqEmq3t0g


----------



## diamondears

rickyleelee said:


> It's an all-in-one vacuum tube amplifier which supports various inputs, such as turntables/CD player/USB/Bluetooth etc.
> 
> check this out
> www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIfqEmq3t0g


 Can it be bought separately (amp only)?


----------



## rickyleelee

diamondears said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Will the Retro integrated amp be offered as a stand-alone like in the pic above of rickyleelee? And what's the price range?




Not sure where you base diamondears, but iFi told me the price of amplifier is RMB 9k and RMB14k with a pair of speakers. Hope this helps!


----------



## diamondears

rickyleelee said:


> Not sure where you base diamondears, but iFi told me the price of amplifier is RMB 9k and RMB14k with a pair of speakers. Hope this helps!


 Thanks rickyleelee. Cheers.


----------



## rickyleelee

diamondears said:


> Thanks rickyleelee. Cheers.




Someone asked for US$ so The price are U$1,465 just for amplifier and U$2,276 amp+speakers.


----------



## diamondears

rickyleelee said:


> Someone asked for US$ so The price are U$1,465 just for amplifier and U$2,276 amp+speakers.


 That was me before you edited your post with the RMB prices. Thanks again.


----------



## rickyleelee

Sorry for the confusion as so difficult to manage the threads on iPhone vs PC !


----------



## mlundy57

I'm new to this site and thread so am not sure if this has been asked before. I am interested in information on the mini iDSD. I have a micro iDSD and am wondering what the mini version is expected to be like.
  
 Thanks,
  
 Mike


----------



## diamondears

See post #118 of this very same thread.


----------



## technobear

Deleted


----------



## mlundy57

Thanks!
  
 Has there been any mention of a price point?
  
 By the way, I am an Octa-adopter of the micro iDSD and am very pleased with it. Currently using it in my main system: laptop w/ JRMC -> micro iDSD -> Jolida JD5T preamp -> Jolida JD801A (for power) -> GR-Research LGK Wedge open baffle speakers. The mini iDSD would go in this system.
  
 Mike


----------



## Boris Bollokov

The price point is €1500 plus tax, in UK that will be around £1700 - no thanks iFi.


----------



## mlundy57

That's a bit rich for my blood also. Guess the micro iDSD is as high as I will be going in this line. I will have to look else ware for a main home system unit.


----------



## Jimi Zine

€1500 plus tax (assuming tax rate of 23%) is around 1850 euros, which is less than £1500 at todays exchange rates. The improvement will be worth it imv, will be significant step up in quality judging by specs we have already seen.


----------



## diamondears

I think it would be worth it. Remember that this would be a DAC and amplifier-in-one. An integrated DAC and amp. So that price is actually on the very reasonable side. And it would be a true balanced design, with both single-ended and balanced HP Jack outs. Can't wait for this.


----------



## Jimi Zine

Hi diamondears, when you say the Ifi idsd Mini will be an integrated amplifier, you mean headphone amplifier right? alongside D/A converter? I am actually planning to use this unit with active speakers.

 Regards


----------



## diamondears

jimi zine said:


> Hi diamondears, when you say the Ifi idsd Mini will be an integrated amplifier, you mean headphone amplifier right? alongside D/A converter? I am actually planning to use this unit with active speakers.
> 
> 
> Regards




Yes, I meant integrated DAC and HP amp.


----------



## Boris Bollokov

I got micro for £400. If mini is £1500. What additional specs does £1100 warrant?


----------



## Jimi Zine

Two bitperfect modes for PCM playback, 
 improved and more powerful head amp,
 lower jitter for improved sound quality,
 Minimal analogue DSD playback mode,
 Improved preamp with remote control,
 Quad Core Dual Mono DAC (4-DAC Chip; 8-Channel; 16-Signals),
 Fully balanced fully discrete Class A design,
 Improved resistors & capacitors,

AES-EBU & BNC SPDIF digital inputs
 XLR balanced audio outputs,
 and more to come, not yet announced...


----------



## Boris Bollokov

jimi zine said:


> Two bitperfect modes for PCM playback,
> improved and more powerful head amp,
> lower jitter for improved sound quality,
> Minimal analogue DSD playback mode,
> ...


 
 I mean fair enough, I guess that's £1100 right there. When iFi mini comes out, would it standout from its potential competition in the same price range?
  
 From what I hear, apparently this price range is fairly competitive.
  
 Personally, I am only interested in one thing - improvement to the sound quality. Certain features not so much.
  
 In this world everything comes down to "GAINS" whether it is physical, financial, popularity... But in this case per £ sound quality gains. 
  
  I doubt the investment of £1100 is going to deliver 240% improvement in sound quality over iDSD. I might be wrong though, in that case money well spent, sonic boom.


----------



## Jimi Zine

We hope so, on paper it seems to but at this price level you have things like Chord Hugo, B.M.C. PureDAC, Benchmark Media DAC2. Law of diminishing returns suggests it won't be 240% better, if this is even possible to quantify but we'll have to wait & see.


----------



## diamondears

jimi zine said:


> We hope so, on paper it seems to but at this price level you have things like Chord Hugo, B.M.C. PureDAC, Benchmark Media DAC2. Law of diminishing returns suggests it won't be 240% better, if this is even possible to quantify but we'll have to wait & see.




The iFi mini iDSD is $1,000 cheaper than Chord Hugo, right? That is 1 brand new Audeze LCD-2...lol


----------



## Jimi Zine

Nope, Chord Hugo is £1'400 new, similar price


----------



## mlundy57

The way I thought the product line laid out was that the nano and micro were the portable DACs and the mini was going to be for a home system. That's how I was looking at the mini, as a main system DAC which would be connected to a preamp and/or integrated amp. My preamps and integrated amps (Jolida, ODDWATT, NAD, and Marantz) all have headphone amplifiers and remote control (as does my OPPO 105D) so those features are not needed in the DAC.
  
 I would prefer to see a version of the mini optimized for use as part of an integrated system (i.e. no duplication of features found in other components) and with an appropriately lower price point, preferably around $1,000. 
  
 Mike


----------



## diamondears

mlundy57 said:


> The way I thought the product line laid out was that the nano and micro were the portable DACs and the mini was going to be for a home system. That's how I was looking at the mini, as a main system DAC which would be connected to a preamp and/or integrated amp. My preamps and integrated amps (Jolida, ODDWATT, NAD, and Marantz) all have headphone amplifiers and remote control (as does my OPPO 105D) so those features are not needed in the DAC.
> 
> I would prefer to see a version of the mini optimized for use as part of an integrated system (i.e. no duplication of features found in other components) and with an appropriately lower price point, preferably around $1,000.
> 
> Mike




Tthe integrateds you mentioned that has HP amps/jack outs have high impedances, which will cause distortion (insufficient electrical damping). So you'll benefit very much from the HP amp of the mini iDSD. Moreover, you'll also benefit from the HP amp being truly balanced, with shorter signal path from the DAC to amp and class A. This would be a competition killer.


----------



## EraserXIV

At this price point I hope they have a robust linear power supply, but I have a feeling it will be some sort of wall wart.


----------



## diamondears

eraserxiv said:


> At this price point I hope they have a robust linear power supply, but I have a feeling it will be some sort of wall wart.




What are the advantages of that over an External Power Supply at 14V DC that's compatible with 12V battery?


----------



## Boris Bollokov

diamondears said:


> The iFi mini iDSD is $1,000 cheaper than Chord Hugo, right? That is 1 brand new Audeze LCD-2...lol


 
 In UK Chord is around £1400, and estimated iMini price will be under £1500 with tax, based on previous posts.
  
 Where did the $1000 cheaper came from? I mean if iMini is going to retail for £900 I am getting it.


----------



## Boris Bollokov

mlundy57 said:


> I would prefer to see a version of the mini optimized for use as part of an integrated system (i.e. no duplication of features found in other components) and with an appropriately lower price point, preferably around $1,000.
> 
> Mike


 
  
 Agree


----------



## Boris Bollokov

Does anyone know if the headphone output impedance of iMini will be the same as iDSD?


----------



## iFi audio

To give you an idea ~ Euro1,500 (with VAT)/US$1,500(Plus tax). Obviously £ is lower. Hope this clarifies.


----------



## diamondears

boris bollokov said:


> In UK Chord is around £1400, and estimated iMini price will be under £1500 with tax, based on previous posts.
> 
> Where did the $1000 cheaper came from? I mean if iMini is going to retail for £900 I am getting it.




Ain't Hugo US$2,500 in the USA? US$2,500-US$1,500=US$1,000. Hope that enlightens...lol


----------



## Boris Bollokov

diamondears said:


> Ain't Hugo US$2,500 in the USA? US$2,500-US$1,500=US$1,000. Hope that enlightens...lol


 
  
 I live in EU, and to be honest couldn't care less about US prices. We were talking about prices in relation to euro and pounds. Hope that helps...


----------



## Boris Bollokov

ifi audio said:


> Please clarify Euro1,500 (with VAT)/US$1,500(Plus tax). Obviously £ is lower. Hope this clarifies.


 
 Thanks, I just realised that I misinterpreted you original post about pricing. Around £1200 inc tax. That is £500 cheaper than I originally thought. I think I will be buying it and sending iDSD back, still have 12 days to decided.


----------



## diamondears

boris bollokov said:


> Thanks, I just realised that I misinterpreted you original post about pricing. Around £1200 inc tax. That is £500 cheaper than I originally thought. I think I will be buying it and sending iDSD back, still have 12 days to decided.




Ain't it £950? The difference can buy one Audeze LCD-2!


----------



## Boris Bollokov

diamondears said:


> Ain't it £950? The difference can buy one Audeze LCD-2!


 
 I initially though iMini would be £1700. After iMini i have to stop, otherwise i burn so much cash. I wish I could buy Aduze also but it will have to wait. 
  
 I am only started learning about audio recently.
  
 I never cared about sound until November when I heard Bose quite comfort. I wanted to get these headphones. Then I started doing research, realised that Bose was average, ended up getting Denon D7100 from amazon new for £360 + £240 in amazon vouchers from work. Got ZxR soundcard for them realised that it has source impedance of 38 ohms, decided to look for a good DAC/AMP to drive my Denons, joined head-fi, was told to get micro iDSD. 
  
 Researched iDSD for days, realized that it is an awesome piece of kit. It looked perfect two BurrBrown DAC chips, 1 ohm source impedance, supports DSD and PCM.
  
 Discovered iMini, aesthetics looked perfect for my white desk, and of course great spec but at £1700 i couldn't justify the price.
  
  
 What was meant to be a £269 purchase (bose QuiteComfort), is now accumulated into £1960 - I hate audio.


----------



## Boris Bollokov

Oppo HA-1 looks very hot, good specification and it is £1200 in UK. Can this be categorized as a competitor to iDSD mini?


----------



## john57

boris bollokov said:


> Oppo HA-1 looks very hot, good specification and it is £1200 in UK. Can this be categorized as a competitor to iDSD mini?


 
 I was thinking about the same thing and already have the iDSD micro. I wanted to try  a *Sabre* DAC for my Alpha Prime headphones. Full specifications of the iDSD mini is still not available at this time. The headphone amp on the OPPO HA-1 is very well developed and the closest competitor with some design differences is possibly the Audio GD.


----------



## Boris Bollokov

john57 said:


> I was thinking about the same thing and already have the iDSD micro. I wanted to try  a *Sabre* DAC for my Alpha Prime headphones. Full specifications of the iDSD mini is still not available at this time. The headphone amp on the OPPO HA-1 is very well developed and the closest competitor with some design differences is possibly the Audio GD.


 
  
 For  aesthetics i like OPPO HA-1's screen/design.
  
 In contrast to OPPO HA-1, iDSD mini will support:
  
  >  PCM 705.6/768KHz
  >  DSD 12.4/22.4/24.8MHz
  >  USB 3.0 (not that important)
  >  4 DAC Chip
  >  Bit-perfect processing
  
 I don't know if people can actually hear a difference between 384 KHz and 768KHz PCM. Is it really necessary to make DACs with formats that high?
  
 No idea what sonic difference 4 BurrBrowns with achieve in comparison to a single ESS Saber DAC.
  
 Not sure if OPPO does bit-perfect processing.
  
 I will wait for iMini to come out, read reviews, see how much it will actually retail at and see how it compares against OPPO, then make a buy decision.


----------



## iFi audio

*Developing the mini Power Supply - to the Nth Degree*
 
As the subject of power supplies has come up, it is perhaps a serendipitous coincidence that our technical director has worked very recently on the final version of the external power supply which will used for the “mini” range.
 
As the power supply section is just about full-crystallised, we are comfortable with sharing the results the mini power supply will deliver.
 
Obviously, the better a power supply you start with, the better you can make the power at the actual digital and audio circuitry inside the given piece of equipment. Insufficient power levels can impact dynamics, excessive noise may not become directly audible as noise, but it may raise jitter levels and distortion.
 
So what do we do? Make the best external power supply we can make, with the filtering, shielding and regulation needed and of course in compliance with all international safety standards as well as those for EMC.
 
Attached here is a screen shot from our AP2 showing the noise of the new iFi mini power supply delivering 15V at 1.25A (18.75W output power).
 
This graph covers frequencies from 10Hz to 108kHz and voltages from 10 nanoVolt (0.00000001V) to 10 Volt.
 

  
  
 
It is worth comparing this graph to the one shown in Walt Jungs seminal article which in 1995  introduced the “super-regulator” concept to the world, with his AD797 based design. Despite its age, this design has so far remained the gold standard against which other power-supplies are/should be measured.
 

  
 - taken from this article:
http://waltjung.org/PDFs/Regs_for_High_Perf_Audio_2_A.pdf
 
Please note that graphs are not directly comparable, because the iFi mini powersupply includes line AC components caused by being asked to deliver a lot of power.
 
Walt Jung's measurements are only evaluated using the self-noise of the regulator with very light loading. However they do both show the self-noise / noisefloor of the circuits very well.
 
If measuring the total noise using the AP2 the reading is around 0.00007V (~70uV) for all noise below 80kHz. Or if we express the noise as a percentage of the 15V output voltage, it is 0.0005% noise compared to the output voltage. Again remember this is when delivering over 18 Watt of power, not at idle!
 
If we push the iFi mini power supply to the maximum by drawing 3.75A (the closest setting on our test load - the powersupply incidentally is rated at 15V/3.5A) and thus delivering 56Watt of power, the noise levels rise a little to around 120uV (mainly cause by increased levels of 100/200Hz components). So for any power level within the design limits we get an output noise of better than 0.0008% of the DC output voltage below 80kHz.
 
It should be noted that this Supply does not directly power any audio circuit, it merely provides the “raw” supply which then passes through two more regulation stages and additional LC filtering inside the mini.
 
So we are confident that this performance is close to the very best power-supplies regarding noise, disregarding the actual implementation and technologies entirely, but instead simply looking at the performance delivered.


----------



## EraserXIV

Very nice! Thanks for sharing


----------



## diamondears

ifi audio said:


> [COLOR=222222]*Developing the mini Power Supply - to the Nth Degree*[/COLOR]
> 
> [COLOR=222222]As the subject of power supplies has come up, it is perhaps a serendipitous coincidence that our technical director has worked very recently on the final version of the external power supply which will used for the “mini” range.[/COLOR]
> 
> ...




Is it on schedule? What's the scheduled release btw, mid-January?


----------



## iFi audio

diamondears said:


> Is it on schedule? What's the scheduled release btw, mid-January?


 

 Hi,
  
 This thing is on slow-burn as it has been radically changed as quite a lot has happened since the the micro iDSD was launched.
  
 As soon as we can say anything we will - but it will be a crazy animal but will not be ready for another few more months - around March/April.
  
 The wait will be worth it - it is going to be smokin.


----------



## john57

Gee, so you are redesigning the whole mini iDSD concept


----------



## iFi audio

john57 said:


> Gee, so you are redesigning the whole mini iDSD concept


 

 Hi,
  
 In a word "yes".
  
 We do apologise for the later launch date but some things have happened that are bigger and better than what we had anticipated and led to our decision to make it a full re-design. We gotta feed our OCD!
  
 Only the Burr-Brown native DSD/PCM chipset and some of the digital section remains.
  
 Therefore, one can deduce that the analogue section in particular, is getting an "extreme makeover".
  
 Even this flagship series is no longer called the mini...very radical indeed.


----------



## EraserXIV

Very exciting, makes sense to take what you learned from the micro and take the iDSD (no mini attached anymore I'm assuming?) to the next level, instead of just having a blown up micro with a bit more power and balanced operation. A redesigned analog section should be very interesting, never settle!


----------



## tf1216

I have an idea for it's new name, "DAC SIW" (Something I Want).


----------



## Neogeo333

Maybe the inputs from the this forum did persuade them?  I just hope the price stay the same or lower.  With some much competition in the 
 DAC segment its wise to make an unique product than to compete with similar ones.


----------



## jexby

eraserxiv said:


> Very exciting, makes sense to take what you learned from the micro and take the iDSD (no mini attached anymore I'm assuming?) to the next level, instead of just having a blown up micro with a bit more power and balanced operation. A redesigned analog section should be very interesting, never settle!


 
  
 how about the tube from iTube going inside the (desktop) iDSD Amp section??


----------



## john57

jexby said:


> how about the tube from iTube going inside the (desktop) iDSD Amp section??


 
 Personally I do not require a tube in the DAC since I already have tube amps. I was happy with the micro without a tube. However the AMR DAC product does have tubes and who knows what IFI will bring out.   If I understand correctly the tube used in the iTube is not user replaceable.


----------



## Esprit

ifi audio said:


> To give you an idea ~ Euro1,500 (with VAT)/US$1,500(Plus tax). Obviously £ is lower. Hope this clarifies.


 
 I'll wait the sales


----------



## Esprit

ifi audio said:


> This thing is on slow-burn as it has been radically changed as quite a lot has happened since the the micro iDSD was launched.


 
 A better solid aluminum case?
  

(like this Matrix X-Sabre)


----------



## john57

I wish it has a clear top so that you can admire the great internal case work.


----------



## diamondears

john57 said:


> Personally I do not require a tube in the DAC since I already have tube amps. I was happy with the micro without a tube. However the AMR DAC product does have tubes and who knows what IFI will bring out.   If I understand correctly the tube used in the iTube is not user replaceable.




There's a tube in it? I think it's solid state that makes your gear sound like a tube.


----------



## john57

diamondears said:


> There's a tube in it? I think it's solid state that makes your gear sound like a tube.


 
 Th ifi  itube actually has a tube in it and it appear to be in a socket and may be user replaceable unlike the Schiit Vali which the tube wires are soldered to the circuit board.
  
  

  
 Edited:  replaced picture with a better view of the GE tube.


----------



## tf1216

Has anyone tried the iTube with the Micro iDSD in their home rig?


----------



## jexby

tf1216 said:


> Has anyone tried the iTube with the Micro iDSD in their home rig?




Not at home.
But I did hear it at RMAF with iCAN and it was a pretty special combination.
The tube they selected is a good one, I could care less if tube rolling isn't an option if that tube is in play.


----------



## tf1216

Thanks jexby!!


----------



## mlundy57

I haven't tried it with an iTube but it sure sounds good through a Jolida tube amp though that's through speakers, not cans. The Jolida doesn't have a headphone amp.  Hmmm, I may need to give this some thought, especially since I have a new pair of Sennheiser HD700's coming in Friday.  Merry Christmas to me 
  
 Mike


----------



## semeniub

tf1216 said:


> Has anyone tried the iTube with the Micro iDSD in their home rig?


 

 I use a TotalDAC D1 usb cable, a Micro iDSD and an iTube then feeding into a pre-amp in my home speaker setup. The iTube doesn't take away from the resolution of the Micro iDSD (at least to my ears) or make it sound syrupy, and the 3D settings on the iTube allow me to achieve quite a spacious sound with bookshelf speakers and a small sub in a small-sized listening room.
  
 This source combo (TotalDAC D1 usb + Micro iDSD + iTube <= $1500) is really impressive for the money.


----------



## diamondears

john57 said:


> Th ifi  itube actually has a tube in it and it appear to be in a socket and may be user replaceable unlike the Schiit Vali which the tube wires are soldered to the circuit board.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Wow, it's actually a tube!


----------



## Faber65

I have the iTube and it works great, but the tube is not customer replaceable as it is soldered to the board as like as the Schiit one.


----------



## john57

faber65 said:


> I have the iTube and it works great, but the tube is not customer replaceable as it is soldered to the board as like as the Schiit one.


 
 No, it is not soldered to the board. The white part is the socket.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/650320/ifi-products-discussion-thread-itube-will-be-out-soon/165#post_9722856
  


> _Originally Posted by *runswithaliens*
> 
> _
> _I didn't see any mention of tube-swapping in the reviews.  Is it one of those soldered to the circuit board type tubes?_


 
  
_I mentioned in my review, the GE5670 is socketed and rollable. But unless you have some Western Electric 396A (usually >$50 each, and considered to be the best of among 5670 tube) around, tube rolling might not be an improvement at all since GE5670 in the iTube is also very well regarded._
  
 I may even have some NOS Western Electric 396A laying around brought a few years ago at a much cheaper price.


----------



## Jimi Zine

Hi Ifi Audio, any chance this new idsd desktop D.A.C. will be MQA ready?


----------



## mlundy57

jimi zine said:


> Hi Ifi Audio, any chance this new idsd desktop D.A.C. will be MQA ready?




MQA?


----------



## technobear

It is not the job of a DAC to decode MQA. That is the job of a player or transport. A DAC will convert PCM or DSD. If the source is MQA (or MP3, FLAC, etc) then player software is required to convert the source to PCM or DSD.


----------



## Jimi Zine

mlundy57 - Meridian's new PCM thing http://www.stereophile.com/content/ive-heard-future-streaming-meridians-mqa


 Really technobear? If that's the case why does Meridian's Explorer 2 declare "*This product is MQA-ready"??*


----------



## Jimi Zine

Technobear, the stereophile article suggests that the DAC needs to be able to decode MQA to get the full benefit of the MQA tech,

 "...To a DAC or player that doesn't have MQA decoding, the MQA file will play as a normal 16-bit file..."


----------



## technobear

It isn't made clear whether this decoding takes place in the DAC chip or as a separate step before the DAC chip. A bit like HDCD, some chips have the extra steps necessary to decode it. Thus it seems MQA might require the DAC chip manufacturers to redesign all their chips. Or not. It isn't clear.


----------



## iFi audio

technobear said:


> It isn't made clear whether this decoding takes place in the DAC chip or as a separate step before the DAC chip. A bit like HDCD, some chips have the extra steps necessary to decode it. Thus it seems MQA might require the DAC chip manufacturers to redesign all their chips. Or not. It isn't clear.


 

 Dear All,

  
 You are all correct to some degree.

  
 We can all agree upon the limited information and so it is difficult to have a hard and fast position.

  
 Notwithstanding, we can augment the information divulged so far with our past experience/knowledge of the audio industry.

  
 The following is our position on MQA and the mini iDSD (and all other iFi DACs for that matter).


  
*Short Answer*
Compression for music (like FLAC, Dolby Digital,MP3 etc.) relate to the file format, there is no need or point to build this into a DAC.

  
The iDSD nano and micro accept uncompressed data streams only, any decoding back to the original (only for lossless compression of course) is best off in the playback device (Computer) where adding such "codecs" (COder-DECoder) is easy.

Up to this point lossy compression is not preferable to uncompressed sources and only lossless compression is equal to uncompressed material. In the 21st century the original limitations on storage space and/or Internet bandwidth are largely immaterial for music, even at the highest resolutions.

So looking at this from the outside, MQA is unlikely to deliver the true potential of the 192kHz master and any computer should be able to decode MQA back to 192K PCM which can then be sent to any DAC (including the iFi products).

  

*Long Answer*
 A small peek at the past will yield:

  
*1) Monkeys Audio?* Yes, that was the lossless* Codec# we used to compress CD-Files in the days BEFORE FLAC!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey%27s_Audio

*2) MLP (Meridian Lossless Packing)? *Which was lobbied hard into the DVD-Audio Spec, for that matter, who remembers DVD-A and how about HDCD?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meridian_Lossless_Packing

 As we approach 2015, both are nowhere to be seen and most have forgotten about them.

  
 Our point is that Codecs come and go. MQA is not the first and won't be the last to say - they all say they do extraordinary things.

  
 If you have a decent software player (JRMC/Foobar etc), it will support all Codec's ever in use (you may have to download obscure ones) and new ones can easily be added.

 For a given Codec, like for example HDCD is used to (say) encode a 18 bits into a 16 bit File, then on replay the 18 Bits are retrieved. As the iFi iDSD range accepts up to 32 Bit data, once decoded by the software player the resultant datastream can be sent to the iDSD and decoded with maximum fidelity.

 Talking specifically about MQA, not much information is available about this, at this moment in time.
 http://www.musicischanging.com/#howItWorks

  
 What is claimed is that a "high resolution master" can be packed into a CD Standard file/stream (16 Bit/48kHz), which will play normally. This is perhaps somewhat similar to what HDCD used to do or probably closer to what MP3 does to CD-Standard audio.

  
 Be that as it may (assuming for one moment that it is possible to pack a 192k/24Bit master into a 48kHz/16Bit file without losing something), once the File/Stream has been decoded back to 24 Bit/192kHz it will play as such on the iDSD.

  
 We believe that it may still be a better choice to get the original 24 Bit/192KHz master file and play that.

  
 It is of course possible to build the decoding part of the Codec into the DAC, for HDCD this was mandatory. Nowadays, with the advancements seen in computer processing power, memory etc such decoding is far better off as part of the player.

  
 If Meridian wants to see MQA adopted more widely than MLP they will have to make decoding options available to software developers (not pitch it to the audio manufacturers), which in turn means that if there is demand, soon MQA will be supported widely by music playback software. JRMC et al. If there is no demand, then it will fade away. Market forces and all that. From a technical standpoint, based upon the limited information available, we do not think this is their chosen path and as such, we do not think this strategy will maximise the chance of MQA being a commercial success. ie widely adopted.

  
 So it is doubtful that the iDSD mini will explicitly support MQA via internal decoding, but it will be able to make the most out of any MQA encoded stream that has been decoded by the player software.

#) Codec from enCOder - DECoder - a chain that first encodes a signal (Audio, Video or other) and then decodes it, primary use is in reducing datarate during transmission and/or file size.
*) Lossless Codec - a Codec that can fully recreate the original signal from the encoded data (e.g. FLAC), by extension a "lossy Codec" (e.g. MP3) cannot recreate the signal, something is lost.


----------



## labjr

Thanks for the info. I agree with you 100%. Except maybe for streaming, I don't see the need for a lossy codec. Computing power and data storage is pretty cheap these days. Audiophiles wouldn't like the idea of a lossy codec and ordinary people probably couldn't tell the difference.


----------



## Jimi Zine

Thanks Ifi Audio for the answer, informative as ever


----------



## mraulino

Hi iFi Audio,

slightly off topic, but since you touched on the subject... have you ever considered adding HDCD decoding capability in the Mini or any of your other DACs?

I have no idea of how costly (?) or technically challenging (??) this could be, but would see it as a great addition given the number of legacy HDCD rips I have (all done normally to 16/44), lack of enthusiasm to re-repurchase everything again in high-res (not to mention that some masterings originally done on HDCD might never be released as 24bit), and the fact that --due to licensing reasons I believe-- there's virtually zero option of HDCD decoding software player in the market today. But even so, Berkeley Audio Design seems to be the only one manufacturing HDCD DACs these days... right?

Would really appreciate to hear your (and other's) thoughts on this -- and personally, would see more value in HDCD decoding than preamp and headphone amplifier functions.

Thanks in advance!

Mario


----------



## tf1216

Not too long ago some folks thought LAME mp3 codec (lossy) was superior to the original *.wav file.  
  
 http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue32/lame.htm
  
I have not tried what is described in the article.  Has anyone else?  .


----------



## iFi audio

mraulino said:


> Hi iFi Audio,
> 
> slightly off topic, but since you touched on the subject... have you ever considered adding HDCD decoding capability in the Mini or any of your other DACs?
> 
> ...


 

 Hi,

  
 Here at iFi, we like HDCD and own a "few" such albums.

  
 Officially speaking, if there was a way to do this without massive complications and cost it would have been included.

  
 Microsoft bought Pacific Microsonic (the inventors of HDCD) for the potential of the technology as a copy protection measure but did not maintain the audio side of the business at all, so no HDCD decoder chips are available.

  
 So a non-starter really.

  
 But fear not. We have the technology...

  
 Unofficially, there is a solution. The solution to HDCD on the PC is to rip using dBPoweramp with the HDCD decoder plugin, or to decode existing HDCD rips using dBPoweramp. This produces a 24Bit File at 44.1KHz*.

  
*HDCD is 18Bit only. It extends the top and bottom dynamic range by 6dB each.
When decoding to a FLAC File you end up with a 24Bit File, because computers like to work with multiples of 8 Bits (8/16/24/32 Bit).

  

  
*HDCD Recommendation?*
 Enough talk of technology, we do listen to music on the odd occasion.

  
 There are a fair few well-known HDCD recordings out there so we won't mention those but a real gem that is not so well-known is the "Local Hero" soundtrack by Mark Knopfler.

  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_Hero_%28album%29

  
 Great movie, wonderful soundtrack and made all the better with HDCD. A real gem.

  
 A strong buy if there ever was one and it is cheap as chips. Used is £2.50 delivered from Amazon.co.uk.


----------



## mraulino

Thanks, iFi Audio, for the quick reply!
  
 Yes, I heard about the workarounds which are unofficially possible on PC, but also that none gives the same result of a proper HDCD decoding done by an HDCD chip (have no idea however whether this is true or not)...
  
 Anyway, would you have any clue on how (and why) Berkeley Audio Design does include the chips despite all the trouble? Well, how they overcome the part of the massive costs can certainly be explained by their much higher price levels, but if there are other technical and/or legal issues and Berkeley can handle them all, then in theory you guys could also do it! Or maybe it is just easier for them to get the chips/licenses because their DACs are not USB ones?
  
 thanks again,
 Mario


----------



## iFi audio

mraulino said:


> Thanks, iFi Audio, for the quick reply!
> 
> 
> Yes, I heard about the workarounds which are unofficially possible on PC, but also that none gives the same result of a proper HDCD decoding done by an HDCD chip (have no idea however whether this is true or not)...
> ...


 

 Hi,
  
 To answer your first question, as the original HDCD patents have expired it is now legal to make and sell HDCD decoding without Microsoft's approval, as long as one does infringe the HDCD trademark.
  
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Definition_Compatible_Digital
  
 From our internal tests here the HDCD decoder in dBPoweramp (which we believe is reversed engineered from the HDCD decoding DLL Microsoft included with some versions of Windows Media Player) does the same as the original decoder in hardware, at least the PDM200 IC.
  
 Therefore, in our humble opinion, we would not consider the unofficial solution as a "downgrade", just another way to skin a cat that is just as effective.
  
 It simply decodes HDCD and instead of sending the data to a DAC, it writes it to disk as 24 Bit file.
  
 This is the beauty of computer audio - it is open and dynamic.
  
  
 To answer your second question, it is best you ask Berkley directly as it is iFi's company policy to not comment on other companies (never mind Head-Fi's policy) and they are nice guys so they should shed some light without giving anything away.
  
  
 Thanks.


----------



## blankdisc

If you check the history of Berkley audio, it will be very easy to understand. The founders of the company literally invented HDCD. They were the owner of Pacific Microsonics.


----------



## Jimi Zine

One week until CES, Ifi will you be exhibiting this new DAC there?


----------



## iFi audio

jimi zine said:


> One week until CES, Ifi will you be exhibiting this new DAC there?


 

  
 Hi,
  
 Sorry the mini iDSD will not be at CES.
  
 The rest of the iFi range will be there in room 29-123 in the Scaena Loudspeakers room.
  
 http://www.scaena.com/speakers.html
  
 A little overkill for iFi gear but the Scaena people quite like the iFi dacs.


----------



## Jimi Zine

Ok, how about at the Sound & Vision Bristol Show in mid/late Feb 2015?


----------



## iFi audio

jimi zine said:


> Ok, how about at the Sound & Vision Bristol Show in mid/late Feb 2015?


 

 Hi,
  
 We have a stall booked in the main hall on the ground floor.
  
 The mini iDSD will show at the Munich High-End Show in May.

 This will be the earliest sighting of this beast...


----------



## Esprit

ifi audio said:


> The mini iDSD will show at the Munich High-End Show in May.


 
 May!!!???
 When on the market ?


----------



## iFi audio

esprit said:


> May!!!???
> When on the market ?


 

 Hi,
  
 Would be May launch too.
  
 So the final production unit at Munich. For sale after Munich.
  
 Thanks.


----------



## diamondears

ifi audio said:


> Hi,
> 
> Would be May launch too.
> 
> ...




Availability in parts of the world?


----------



## labjr

Will the Mini use femto clocks? How important is clocking, especially when the mini with work with such high sample rates?


----------



## iFi audio

diamondears said:


> Availability in parts of the world?


 

 Hi.
  
 Yes, will firm up closer to the time.
  
 Thanks.


----------



## iFi audio

labjr said:


> Will the Mini use femto clocks? How important is clocking, especially when the mini with work with such high sample rates?


 

 Hi,
  
 Dont get us wrong - Femto clocks are nice and better than average clocks etc.
  
 But the fact is that Femto clocks originally came about not for audiophile use but for the SONET.
  
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronous_optical_networking
  
 Kind of the backbone of the Internet if you will. Therefore, as you can appreciate, the jitter/reflections found here are in the GHz region.
  
 Hence, crucially, Femto clocks are most effective in the GHz band.
  
 The human hearing is certainly not focused here (heck, not even for those small furry creatures that carry ebola and sleep upside down in damp caves).
  
 So to us, it doesnt make sense to put something in an audio product that is less than optimal for audio playback even if it is flavour of the month.
  
 We do something a bit different. The roots lie in what we did for the AMR DP-777.


----------



## jexby

ifi audio said:


> Hi,
> 
> Dont get us wrong - Femto clocks are nice and better than average clocks etc.
> 
> ...


 
  
 iFi,
  
 thanks as always for the prompt replies.
  
 can users find out the background of AMR DP-777 online?
 or
 can you explain any further/deeper, without giving away proprietary secrets, what the micro iDSD underneath labelling of:
  GMT Femto Clock Technology
 means then?
 (if femto clocks are not actually used.)


----------



## john57

As far clocks goes. This post does go some in detail.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/711217/idsd-micro-crowd-designed-phase-3-show-a-little-leg-what-is-it-page-132/645#post_10606215


----------



## Jimi Zine

May 2015 wow ok that's a while, thanks


----------



## earfonia

ifi audio said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Major case of feature creep - so we are going to aim for prototype for CES and then launch in Mar.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Awesome specs! Looks like micro on steroid 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Some questions and requests :
  
 1. Can we have both analog and digital volume? Selectable to have the flavor of both, like in Mytek 192-DSD.
  
 2. Since the headphone output is so powerful (like micro), will there be analog input just in case we need to use the headphone amplifier alone?
  
 3. I found micro iDSD single LED indicator is extremely frustrating. Will there be a more user friendly indicator on the mini?
  
 4. Will mini has USB power filter built-in ?
  
 5. Any plan for balanced headphone output (4 pins XLR) ?
  
 Sorry if some already asnwered somewhere, Thanks!


----------



## technobear

Here is my wish list for the mini iDSD:

1) Class A headphone amp;

2) Analogue stepped attenuator volume control with remote;

3) At least Level 1 & 3 XBASS (from micro iCAN) plus Level 2 XBASS (from micro iDSD) even if this means using a knob instead of a toggle switch. Better still would be full tone controls based on analogue stepped attenuators with remote;

4) 3D Holographic sound from the micro iCAN, not the micro iDSD and make it tone compensated;

5) Crossfeed from the micro iCAN;

6) Balanced headphone output (as well as single ended);

7) Obviously ultra low noise power supplies and an iPurifier on the USB input;

8) Full USB isolation would be good;

9) Since you have the knowhow already, you could make the unit battery operated with automatic recharge when music is not playing and vanishingly low power consumption once the battery is full so it can be left plugged in - this implies a sleep mode to power down the Class A headphone amp of course;

10) Probably wasting my time but many will ask for a BLACK version.


In my humble opinion, splitting the above functionality between a mini iDSD and a mini iCAN would result in a system which is way too expensive. The £1200 price point is already challenging when one looks at what one can get for half that price or a little more. The mini iDSD is going to need some seriously standout features to justify the asking.


----------



## semeniub

technobear said:


> Here is my wish list for the mini iDSD:
> 
> 1) Class A headphone amp;
> 
> ...


 

 +1
  
 And in the spirit of crowd-designing, I'm going to suggest a tube output stage, and the audio streaming functionality of the SOTM SMS-100 built in too!


----------



## technobear

semeniub said:


> And in the spirit of crowd-designing, I'm going to suggest a tube output stage, and the audio streaming functionality of the SOTM SMS-100 built in too!




Those who want a tube output stage can of course buy the upcoming Retro 50.

Personally I don't want the power consumption that goes with tubes.

This of course leads us to the question of how powerful the headphone amp should be given that it really must be a Class A design. The micro iCAN sounds great but doesn't consume much. However it isn't the best for some of the hungrier 'phones out there. I have nice efficient T1's so I don't care. The micro iCAN is just fine. Perhaps there might be scope for a switchable multi-level Class A design so that the user can choose how much power will be consumed.

Newbies might be reading this and wondering what I am on about. In a nutshell, Class A designs consume power the whole time regardless of whether music is playing or not. I believe the transistors are biased at something approaching 50% which would imply 25% of maximum power consumption continuously. Something like that anyway. Experts please set me straight if I haven't quite got that right. In a Class AB design, the transistors are permanently biased by a few percent only so consumption depends more closely on the volume level. In a Class B design (are there any?) the transistors are switched off whenever the signal is zero.


----------



## BillsonChang007

technobear said:


> Here is my wish list for the mini iDSD:
> 
> 1) Class A headphone amp;
> 
> ...




+1 to this! to add, maybe some iUSBPower features put in it?


----------



## Esprit

My wish list? ASIO driver for Mac OSX in order to bypass the DoP...


----------



## rickyleelee

How exactly will the mini DSD be different? Have seen some rehash/upsize in a new fancier chassis with a bigger power supply. Seen this to often and feel left down by this way of business.


----------



## tf1216

rickyleelee said:


> How exactly will the mini DSD be different? Have seen some rehash/upsize in a new fancier chassis with a bigger power supply. Seen this to often and feel left down by this way of business.


 
  
 What has me excited is the four DAC chips, opposed to two, providing a true-balanced output and the techniques used for the display on the Micro.


----------



## iFi audio

*mini Pro series 'iDSD Pro' - the specifications*
  
 (can the original poster change the title from "mini" to "Pro" desktop? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)
  
 Okay, okay - here you guys go.
  
 To answer the above questions, (except for the casework), the micro is not a "super-size" of the nano, neither will the mini Pro series "iDSD Pro".
  
  
 Originally the iDSD mini Pro  was set to use the same Generation 1.5 XMOS and CPU Core as the iDSD micro, but expanded to allow 4 DAC Chip's and with a different analogue stage. This would have given the iDSD headlining specs, including DSD512 and 768KHz PCM, but would have left it a little difficult to include in a number of scenarios.
  
  
 But this the iFi flagship. Following on from the discussions with distributors, customers and professionals in the recording industry, we will instead use the iDSD Pro to develop the Generation 2 version of the platform. This includes a few, but significant adjustments in usability and a number of features targeted at the professional market, though they do have uses in domestic audio as well.
  
  
 Key changes are:
  
  
*1) External Clock Synchronisation*
 The iDSD Pro will allow the use of external clocks for USB and AES/EBU modes.
  
  
 Options available are the use of the BNC socket as 10MHz atomic clock input (this affects all clocks and inputs).
  
  
 For external sync either Wordclock via BNC or AES3 on the XLR input are supported. Finally the BNC can be configured as wordclock out (to make one iDSD Pro the "master" in a multi channel playback setup).
  
  
 The wordclock synchronisation is mainly for professional use, but will also allow the iDSD to be used in multichannel playback at home, as for this all DACs MUST be synchronised.
  
 The ability to add an external atomic (or other low-jitter) clock will cater to those who like to tweak their setups to the limit, as it replaces the internal crystal clock reference directly.
  
  
  
  
*2) USB linked Volume Control*
 The iDSD mini will use a fully balanced (4-deck) Alps motorised Potentiometer as volume control. This volume control will be linked into the Master Volume control for the USB Device with a full feedback loop, meaning if you move the slider in Windows/Mac, the actual potentiometer rotates to match this and in reverse, adjust the volume and the slider moves. The adjustment will be highly precise so it matches across multiple units and is absolute - that is set several to -10dB and what you get is precisely -10dB.
  
  
 The volume setting system used here is a derivation of the "flying faders" system used in Pro-Audio to automate mixes, but obviously has many uses outside pro-audio, especially if linked with the replay gain function, if replay-gain is applied to this volume control.
  
  
 Of course, there will also be a handset to remote control the volume. And being able to set the Potentiometer explicitly to any position, we will include separate memories for volume settings for Headphone and Line out mode. So plug in your Headphones and the Volume returns to the last volume setting used when a headphone was connected, unplug it and the volume returns to that set for the line out. So an analogue Volume control with all the precision and comfort of a digital one. But none of the drawbacks such as losing Bits which the truncating signal etc.
  
  
  
  
*3) DSD decoding from SPDIF*
 This is probably the most requested feature, simply put, the iDSD Pro will be able to receive DoP encoded DSD over the SPDIF & AES/EBU inputs. This is actually not hard to implement, just a bit time-consuming, but we kind of missed the demand for this, so it was never implemented before.
  
  
  
  
*4) Passive Filtering and Discrete Analogue stage*
 The analogue stage in the iDSD Pro will be completely discrete, no Op-Amp IC's and in fact the actual discrete design will also not just be Op-Amp made discrete (and often worse than the best integrated ones) but will use something radically different, pure Class A (
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) being among the features. Much of the circuitry draws its inspiration from legendary and exceptionally sounding studio equipment.
  
  
 Not only that, but the DAC outputs will have a purely passive, CLC (Capacitor-Resistor-Capacitor) based lowpass filter to remove ultrasonic noise. Commonly the DAC outputs are filtered at least in part active. Often active filters struggle with the amount ultrasonic noise and RFI they have to handle and at a few 100kHz they often loose the ability to filter at all.
  
 Not so for the iDSD Pro. Using passive CLC filtering provides the correct filtering out to many Megahertz, so that the following analogue stage is not required to handle ultrasonic noise and RFI outside it's ability to handle.
  
  
  
  
*5) Dimmable Display with off option*
 We have been getting requests ranging from "can you make the display brighter" to "can we turn the display off". So the Display on the iDSD will be adjustable in several steps of brightness, including "bright" and "off". In a move borrowed from the AMR line, if there is any change that requires indication the display will show this for a few seconds at maximum brightness before returning to whatever is set up (including off).
  
  
 This is all we can divulge at this moment in time.


----------



## earfonia

ifi audio said:


> *Pro series 'iDSD Pro' - the specifications*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 Sounds good!
 Why not just put the atomic clock as default?  Will it make the cost jump to much?


----------



## tf1216

The head control for multichannel playback? That is awesome!!
  
 Absolute volume control from the computer and on the device is sweet too!!


----------



## Sergiusz OMD

The new idsd mini should be a pure DAC without any amp built in. Who agrees with me? And the bluetooth function is unnecessary too.


----------



## john57

sergiusz omd said:


> The new idsd mini should be a pure DAC without any amp built in. Who agrees with me? And the bluetooth function is unnecessary too.


 
 At the price range having a built in amp is good. Like the OPPO HA-1 for example. For me WiFI would make more sense than bluetooth since it is limited to CD redbook quality at best.


----------



## Sergiusz OMD

john57 said:


> At the price range having a built in amp is good. Like the OPPO HA-1 for example. For me WiFI would make more sense than bluetooth since it is limited to CD redbook quality at best.



I agree. The pricing is good but it could be even lower. For example if someone needs only a dac then he will buy it, the same situation happens when somebody needs just an amp and vice versa.

In my opinion ifi should focus to built the best DAC box and separately an amp (iCAN). The mini's are no more an portable audio so its not necessary to have both amp and dac in one box.


----------



## Esprit

ifi audio said:


> This is all we can divulge at this moment in time.


 
 Have you "copied" the Mytek?


----------



## Esprit

> Originally Posted by *iFi audio* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Originally the iDSD mini Pro  was set to use the same Generation 1.5 XMOS and CPU Core as the iDSD micro, but expanded to allow 4 DAC Chip's and with a different analogue stage. This would have given the iDSD headlining specs, including DSD512 and 768KHz PCM, but would have left it a little difficult to include in a number of scenarios.


 
 Has the iDSD Pro DSD512 and 768KHz PCM, or not?


----------



## iFi audio

esprit said:


> Has the iDSD Pro DSD512 and 768KHz PCM, or not?


 

 Hi,
  
 The nano has PCM386/DSD256
  
 The micro has PCM768/DSD512
  
 Yes, the Pro will have PCM768/DSD512.


----------



## Thorbee

Hello, I understand the mini-iDSD will be fully balanced with balanced line-level outputs, my question is can you please have a 4-pin balanced out for headphones, this is the only thing I don't think i saw in the spec sheet unless I missed it.


----------



## diamondears

thorbee said:


> Hello, I understand the mini-iDSD will be fully balanced with balanced line-level outputs, my question is can you please have a 4-pin balanced out for headphones, this is the only thing I don't think i saw in the spec sheet unless I missed it.




I remember it does have the 4-pin balanced. What it doesn't is the two (L and R) 3-pin balanced like the BHA-1.


----------



## BillsonChang007

ifi audio said:


> *mini Pro series 'iDSD Pro' - the specifications*
> 
> (can the original poster change the title from "mini" to "Pro" desktop?
> 
> ...


 
 This Mini Pro iDSD is getting more and more interesting each day!


----------



## hugoboss

multichanle playback
 is it gonna support 7.1 dts hd and dolby true-hd or maybe dolby atmos?
 it will gonna rocking so much if these feature also supported


----------



## Thorbee

diamondears said:


> I remember it does have the 4-pin balanced. What it doesn't is the two (L and R) 3-pin balanced like the BHA-1.


 
  
 Thanks for that information. I can understand not having the 3-pin L+R (space considerations etc.) but I'm glad the 4-pin is there.


----------



## Esprit

hugoboss said:


> multichanle playback
> is it gonna support 7.1 dts hd and dolby true-hd or maybe dolby atmos?
> it will gonna rocking so much if these feature also supported


 
 MCH if you buy 3 iDSD Pro (like Mytek)


----------



## iFi audio

earfonia said:


> Sounds good!
> 
> Why not just put the atomic clock as default?  Will it make the cost jump to much?


 
  
 Hi,
  
 The cost would jump into multiples.
  
 The standalone atomic clock itself such as this one below which we like alone, costs 4-figures.
  
  

  
 We like the Sanford Research Clock, as it is both one of the most affordable ones AND not from an Audio Company (SR are strictly pro test gear and are very good at it) AND one of the lowest phase noise ones (it is nearly as good as a Wenzel midrange Crystal oscillator - which for an atomic clock is quite exceptional).
  
Note: To compare jitter inside the clock we prefer to measure on phase noise, not pico seconds. 
  
  
 eg. A name you all are likely to have heard of is dCS who allow their gear to be slaved to an atomic clock:
  
 http://www.dcsltd.co.uk/products/vivaldi-clock/
  
 So for the ~US$13.5k dCS Vivaldi Clock you still need to buy the Atomic Clock.
  
  
  
 As always, you have to implement the clock well too, not just do it textbook.
  
 Kind of what we did with the AMR DP-777. So there is a fair bit of technical implementation involved (aside from cost).
  
 If you like, some tech background here:
 http://amr-audio.co.uk/html/dp777_tech-papers_jitter.html
  
 As clocks warm up etc, they drift eg 44.113564 to 44.16599...if one wants to nail jitter truly thoroughly...there is a lot of work to be done on the implementation side.
  
 Like needing a good chef to work with good ingredients.
  
  
 Last but not least, the clock system in the iDSD Pro (and iDSD micro already) will be the same as in the DP-777 and has femto seconds levels of Clock Jitter. (The nano iDSD uses classic Crystal Clocks instead). This was covered over in the Crowd-Design thread.
  
 But the best Atomic Clocks CAN do even better and in some studio applications the extra accuracy from atomic clocks is very much appreciated.
  
 (For most audio users the normal internal clock mode will be fine - so there is an element of overkill going on here.)


----------



## earfonia

ifi audio said:


> Hi,
> 
> The cost would jump into multiples.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Understand. Really appreciate for the insightful explanation, thanks!
  
 Is that mean that the atomic clock upgrade will cost around 4 figures?
  
 I read somewhere that sometime the expensive clock is used only for digital sources other than USB input.  Is that true?  
 For Pro iDSD, will the same high quality clock be used for all the digital sources or only some?
  
 Thanks!


----------



## ClieOS

ifi audio said:


> ... (For most audio users the normal internal clock mode will be fine - so there is an element of overkill going on here.)


 
  
 "Because overkill is underrated, my friend."


----------



## sdolezalek

Does the addition of DSD decoding from SPDIF (and AES/EBU) mean that, in theory, the Mini/Pro could be connected to the digital output of an existing SACD player and decode the DSD bitstream (rather than having to rip SACD's to digital files first?).  In other words does this allow the Mini/Pro to serve as the DAC for existing disc transports?


----------



## iFi audio

sdolezalek said:


> Does the addition of DSD decoding from SPDIF (and AES/EBU) mean that, in theory, the Mini/Pro could be connected to the digital output of an existing SACD player and decode the DSD bitstream (rather than having to rip SACD's to digital files first?).  In other words does this allow the Mini/Pro to serve as the DAC for existing disc transports?


 
  
 Hi,
  
 Good question! Somebody has had their 3 Wheatabix today...
  
  
*Short Answer*
 This is one of those typical theoretical "YES" situations, but in real-world practice, a big "NO".
  
  
*Longer Answer*
 No, SACD Players do not output DSD via SPDIF at ALL. Sony and Philips made that impossible, SACD was designed to be as difficult as possible to copy/extract in the digital domain.
  
 If one has the time and the inclination, DSD can only be sent via HDMI and then only with special security handshakes (read: sorry, there will not be an iFi Support pdf! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





).
  
 For the iDSD Pro, the DoP via SPDIF feature is useful for Media Players or other file-based sources that ONLY have SPDIF or AES/EBU outputs but not USB.
  
 In this case they can either be set up to play DSD encoded as DoP or the DSD file may be re-encoded as DoP-FLAC file, which plays as standard 176.kHz PCM file but contains the native DSD datastream (if played without DoP decoding it sounds like white noise).


----------



## Pacomarmor

Will the new iDSD Pro with its >4W output, be adequate to drive directly High Efficiency Horn loudspeakers (In my case, Big Fun Horn / Lowther DX4 -about 99db/W)?
 If this is the case, It will become a very promising solution for users like me with these type of systems. (maybe even the XBass could help a little bit here) 
 Thanks in advance for your answer.


----------



## iFi audio

pacomarmor said:


> Will the new iDSD Pro with its >4W output, be adequate to drive directly High Efficiency Horn loudspeakers (In my case, Big Fun Horn / Lowther DX4 -about 99db/W)?
> If this is the case, It will become a very promising solution for users like me with these type of systems. (maybe even the XBass could help a little bit here)
> Thanks in advance for your answer.


 
  
 Hi,
  
 If a 16 Ohm Lowther, perhaps, the Speakers would have to be plugged into the Headphone jack on the front of the unit.
  
 For this duty, probably a better candidate to drive this would be iCAN Pro...
  
 Cheers.


----------



## HalidePisces

How's the iCan Pro coming along? Anything you can share with us regarding that?


----------



## iFi audio

halidepisces said:


> How's the iCan Pro coming along? Anything you can share with us regarding that?


 
  
 Hi,

  
 What would you like to know of the iCAN Pro - Specs or Features?


----------



## tf1216

ifi audio said:


> Hi,
> 
> 
> What would you like to know of the iCAN Pro - Specs or Features?


 
  
 Was it designed to stack on top or below the iDSD?
  
 Will it be on par with a Micro stack?  BTW, the iTube, imo, is one of the most underrated pieces of gear out there.  I love what it does for my home stereo system.


----------



## HalidePisces

ifi audio said:


> What would you like to know of the iCAN Pro - Specs or Features?


How about both? ^_^


----------



## iFi audio

tf1216 said:


> Was it designed to stack on top or below the iDSD?
> 
> Will it be on par with a Micro stack?  BTW, the iTube, imo, is one of the most underrated pieces of gear out there.  I love what it does for my home stereo system.


 
  
 Hi,
  
 Will be a whole new iRACK for it.
  
 From bottom up, iDSD > iTUBE > iCAN.
  
 Just like in the current "Little Big Rig".


----------



## h1f1add1cted

ifi audio said:


> Hi,
> 
> 
> What would you like to know of the iCAN Pro - Specs or Features?


 
  
 Nice!
  
 Any idea about pricing and release date?
  
 Perfomance from the amp should be almost or more as the micro iDSD on Turbo mode I guess?
  
 Is there a detailed spec and feature list for preview?
  
 My wallet is already scared from iFi but I need more


----------



## earfonia

ifi audio said:


> Hi,
> 
> 
> What would you like to know of the iCAN Pro - Specs or Features?


 
  
 I would like for iCAN Pro to have 2 different outputs, one fully solid state, the second one is hybrid tube and solid state. So it can accommodate both warm and analytical headphones 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 One sound signature from one big box is boring....


----------



## iFi audio

Hi All.
  
 Thank Crunchie it is Friday.
  
 There are the latest specs, they are subject to change and we may throw in one or two surprises (cos we know you like surprises).
  
 Have confirmed iwth the R&D people that this is what we can divulge.
  
  
*iCAN Pro*
  
 Here you go:
  
*Key features are:*

Balanced Output options on 3-Pin & 4-Pin XLR plus 6.3mm Jack on front panel.
Unbalanced outputs on 6.3mm Jack (direct) and two 3.5mm Jacks with built-in fixed iEMatch attenuation on front panel to drive IEMs etc. (same attenuation as in iDSD micro).
Balanced XLR & RCA outputs on back can carry Headphone out signal (for use as preamp or with Electrostatic Energiser) or loop through signal from inputs (for use with external pre-amp).
1 pair of XLR Inputs and three pairs of RCA Inputs.
20V maximum output, > 600mW into 600 Ohm headphones, appx 16,000mW maximum into 16 Ohm and appx. 6,000 mW continuous output into 16Ohm.
Three levels of gain selectable from Front Panel.
Balanced ALPS Volume control with remote control.
3D Holographic® for Headphones and XBass® (each adjustable in 3-Levels + Off).
Class A operation for all stages up to 240mW/600 Ohm, circuitry derived from professional tube-based studio equipment, implemented in a hybrid design mixing J-Fets, Bipolar transistors and Mosfets (as in Micro iCAN).
Full Dual-Mono design including internal power supplies, supplied with 15V/4A Ultra Low Noise PSU (Generation 2 design as also the updated PSU for Micro).
Optional Electrostatic Headphone Energiser in separate Box will be introduced, 1,700V Peak-Peak maximum output, Bias selectable for Stax HiFi/Pro, Sennheiser and others, Output Levels selectable, 3 * Stax Pro & HiFi Sockets fitted.
  

 *Balanced Headphone Amplifier*
  
 *PowerSource:*
 External DC 15V/4A
 *Inputs (Back):*
 1 x XLR True Balanced Stereo
  
 3 x RCA Stereo
 *Output Front):*
 4-Pin XLR Headphone Balanced
  
 Dual 3-Pin XLR Headphone Balanced
  
 6.3mm Headphone x2, single ended or balanced
  
 6.3mm to 3.5mm adapter included
  
 3.5mm iEMatch attenuated x 2 
 *Output (back):*
 XLR selectable Loop or HP Out 
  
 RCA selectable Loop or HP Out 
 *Volume Control:*
 Motorised ALPS 6-Way potentiometer in unique extended range series/shunt operation
  
  
 *Analogue Processing:*
 X-Bass, +3dB at 80Hz, 160Hz, 320Hz  
  
 3D Sound. 30/45/60 Degrees virtual Speaker angle
 *Gain:*
 0dB, 12dB and 24dB user-selectable
 *Signal to Noise Ratio:*
 >117dB(A)
 *Total Harmonic Distortion (THD):*
 <0.003%
 *Frequency Response:*
 0.5Hz to 500KHz(-3dB)
 *Output Power (16R cont):*
 > 6,000mW
 *Output Voltage (600R):*
 >20V (Balanced); > 10V (single ended)
 *Size:*
 220mm x 62mm X 190mm (W X H X D including feet and connectors)


----------



## iFi audio

We're on a roll....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Here are some pictures of the PCB of the iCAN Pro (the "Mini" print will be updated to "Pro" in the future).
 - Gold-plated
 - 4-Layer (uncommon)
 - Mil-spec
 - bank of 10pcs Elna Silmic Capacitors provisioned
  
 It has of course not been populated yet...
  
 We'll let the pictures do the talking.
  
 We hope you like 'em.


----------



## Esprit

ifi audio said:


> Hi,
> 
> 
> What would you like to know of the iCAN Pro - Specs or Features?


 
  
 A "pro" line in _black_?


----------



## earfonia

Whooaaa, the specs looks so fantastic :-D 

Looks like ifi will demo the iCan Pro with Lowther loudspeakers :-D 

May I request for 2 flavors of volume controls, both analog and digital volume control?
Thanks!


----------



## rickyleelee

ifi audio said:


> Hi All.
> 
> Thank Crunchie it is Friday.
> 
> ...


 
  
Looking at the Specs, think I just had an eargasm and I haven't heard it yet! Gotta get me the EL-8s now!


----------



## labjr

earfonia said:


> Whooaaa, the specs looks so fantastic :-D
> 
> Looks like ifi will demo the iCan Pro with Lowther loudspeakers :-D
> 
> ...


 
  
 This isn't a DAC or doesn't do anything in the digital domain, does it? Why would you want a digital volume control?


----------



## earfonia

labjr said:


> This isn't a DAC or doesn't do anything in the digital domain, does it? Why would you want a digital volume control?


 
  
 Ah yes, that's right, this is only iCan Pro, i get mixed up with the iDSD Pro.
 Thanks for the correction!


----------



## softsound

Wow. I've never heard of a headphone amplifier with a frequency response  up to 500 KHz (-3 dB). I imagine this is a difficult task to achieve. Extraordinary really !


----------



## h1f1add1cted

If the iDSD Pro will be around 1500 Euro ( http://www.head-fi.org/t/702376/ifi-audio-mini-desktop-line-discussion-thread/210#post_11125574 ) how much would be price for the iCAN Pro? Thanks!


----------



## Esprit

softsound said:


> Wow. I've never heard of a headphone amplifier with a frequency response  up to 500 KHz (-3 dB). I imagine this is a difficult task to achieve. Extraordinary really !


 
 SPL Phonitor 2:
*Headphone Output*
Frequency Range: 10 Hz to ›480 kHz ( -3 dB)
 http://spl.info/en/products/headphone-amps/phonitor2/specifications.html


----------



## KmanChu

Wow! Those are some pretty cool specs/features/pictures. I am not in the market for a new amp but that sounds pretty sweet!
  
 Any chance it would have line and variable level outs for use as a preamp with powered speakers?  Speaking of which, what about the iMON i saw photos of a while back?


----------



## technobear

Are these pro-audio targeted units half-rack-width in size?

Will an adaptor be available to hold two of them side by side in a standard 19 inch rack?

What are the cooling requirements?

I'm struggling to see pro-audio types being impressed with wall-wart plugs and flimsy DC power cables and connectors. Is there no way the power supplies can be built in to these larger boxes?


----------



## technobear

One more thing. The micro iTUBE emits alarming noises during the first few seconds of warm-up. These can be very alarming if you have your iTUBE connecting to power amps and the latter are ON.

In the iTUBE Pro and in the iCAN Pro you really must include a circuit to mute that noise until the valve has settled. Having to turn the device on and then wait 30 seconds before turning anything else on is not going to cut any ice with pro users.


----------



## ClieOS

It is tube gear, so you really should let it warm up first before turning everything else on or plugging things in.


----------



## technobear

clieos said:


> It is tube gear, so you really should let it warm up first before turning everything else on or plugging things in.




No. Sorry but I entirely disagree with that. It might be OK for home users. It isn't acceptable in a pro-audio environment. What's more it isn't necessary. It's very easy to implement a simple timer circuit that mutes the valve for the first 30 seconds.


----------



## ClieOS

technobear said:


> No. Sorry but I entirely disagree with that. It might be OK for home users. It isn't acceptable in a pro-audio environment. What's more it isn't necessary. It's very easy to implement a simple timer circuit that mutes the valve for the first 30 seconds.


 
  
 Agree to disagree then.


----------



## KmanChu

technobear said:


> No. Sorry but I entirely disagree with that. It might be OK for home users. It isn't acceptable in a pro-audio environment. What's more it isn't necessary. It's very easy to implement a simple timer circuit that mutes the valve for the first 30 seconds.


 
  
 Unless I missed something, I somehow don't think it is aimed at the real professional market, it's just a cooler name for the flagship line than "mini" as was originally planned. However, I agree with your sentiments that they should take some extra time to iron out all of the hiccups and release a fully polished product with this line. So things like the noise you are talking about with the micro iTube or the popping between DSD tracks when using DoP in micro iDSD should be completely resolved. Functionally and physically it should be fully polished. 
  
 I have to admit it is intriguing, but that would be a pretty large stack of stuff with the iDSD, iTUBE and iCAN running to almost $5k! That is serious bread! I have a hard time imagining anyone going for that stack when the iDSD is supposed to have its own pretty smoking headphone output.


----------



## rickyleelee

kmanchu said:


> Unless I missed something, I somehow don't think it is aimed at the real professional market, it's just a cooler name for the flagship line than "mini" as was originally planned. However, I agree with your sentiments that they should take some extra time to iron out all of the hiccups and release a fully polished product with this line. So things like the noise you are talking about with the micro iTube or the popping between DSD tracks when using DoP in micro iDSD should be completely resolved. Functionally and physically it should be fully polished.
> 
> I have to admit it is intriguing, but that would be a pretty large stack of stuff with the iDSD, iTUBE and iCAN running to almost $5k! That is serious bread! I have a hard time imagining anyone going for that stack when the iDSD is supposed to have its own pretty smoking headphone output.






Go back a few pages, they said that the iDSD does mutichannel as they are working with pro industry people. The DSD popping is well covered too and has been addressed in a firmware update. I play through ASIO on JRMC. I think that is over on the crowd design thread (was a while back).


----------



## ninjapirate9901

> Optional Electrostatic Headphone Energiser in separate Box will be introduced, 1,700V Peak-Peak maximum output, Bias selectable for Stax HiFi/Pro, Sennheiser and others, Output Levels selectable, 3 * Stax Pro & HiFi Sockets fitted.


 
  
 Interesting, is it possible for a Stax normal bias output as well?


----------



## iFi audio

ninjapirate9901 said:


> Interesting, is it possible for a Stax normal bias output as well?


 
  
 Hello.
  
 It will have switchable bias. This separate Stax component will come after the main line units are released, so details are less finalised.
  
 At this stage, we have experimental models working, but the transformers must be optimised more and we have other details to work out.
  
 So this separate component is a bit further off.


----------



## mraulino

kmanchu said:


> Unless I missed something, I somehow don't think it is aimed at the real professional market, it's just a cooler name for the flagship line than "mini" as was originally planned. However, I agree with your sentiments that they should take some extra time to iron out all of the hiccups and release a fully polished product with this line. So things like the noise you are talking about with the micro iTube or the popping between DSD tracks when using DoP in micro iDSD should be completely resolved. Functionally and physically it should be fully polished.
> 
> I have to admit it is intriguing, but that would be a pretty large stack of stuff with the iDSD, iTUBE and iCAN running to almost $5k! That is serious bread! I have a hard time imagining anyone going for that stack when the iDSD is supposed to have its own pretty smoking headphone output.


 
  
 Considering the price levels of iDSD Nano and even Micro, I can totally understand that iFi prefers one standardized design for each since any cost that could be saved by stripping features unnecessary to some (preamp, headphone amp, etc.) would be of little --if any-- influence to the purchase decision, and would probably be offset or even exceeded by the creation of another product line. However, for the iDSD Pro, a much more expensive product, maybe having the option of a 'naked' (and cheaper) unit could mean actual cost-saving and make a difference for those of us to whom those extra features would be redundant, either because we plan to buy the whole the iDSD + iTUBE + iCAN set, or because we already own everything else and need only a great DAC.
  
 I really hope that a 'naked' iDSD Pro will follow the flagship model... (iFi audio, please consider!)
  
 thanks,
 Mario
  
 PS: and thanks, iFi audio, for the suggestions about using dbpoweramp to decode HDCD files. I decoded all my HDCD rips and am really liking the result!


----------



## MLGrado

AHH!!!  I can't wait!  At least I have the quite excellent iDSD Micro in the meantime to keep me jamming.   Best half a grand I ever spent on hi-fi?  Without a doubt.  The only problem is, I WANT MORE!  haha


----------



## EVOLVIST

Yeah, we want more! But really, will 4 Burr-Brown chips make that much of a difference in audio quality, especially if you're just using the iDSD Pro as a DAC only, and feeding another headphone amp (iCAN Pro or any other)?
  
 Believe me, I love an all balanced setup. I would prefer running a balanced DAC to my current headphone amp, as opposed to the way I'm running the iDS micro, now, to wit, with RCA to XLR cables. Still, true balanced might not be enough to shell out an extra $1000 USD.
  
 And then even if I did fall madly in love with the iDSD Pro, what bout the iTube I have right now? Now I'm going unbalanced again, with the iTube micro, in line, because I bet you dollars to donuts, that the iTube Pro is not only going to be more pricey, but also offer more tube power than the perfect, and light, simple tube buffer that the iTube micro offers. Unless...
  
 iFi...how about for the iTube pro, there is a selector for tube combinations we can select from, all the way down from one tube, to a whole array, whichever strikes our fancy for the kind of music we are listening to? Also a flip of the switch that takes the tube circuitry out of line, in a balanced setup, if we feel like going back to only SS, without having to unplug the iTube Pro?
  
 Or...someone help me see the error of my ways?


----------



## tf1216

Would two Micro iTubes work?


----------



## ClieOS

tf1216 said:


> Would two Micro iTubes work?


 
  
 Why do you want two of them?


----------



## tf1216

In response to EVOLVIST, Two iTubes would allow one to have a BALANCED configuration. One iTube for each channel.


----------



## EVOLVIST

tf1216 said:


> In response to EVOLVIST, Two iTubes would allow one to have a BALANCED configuration. One iTube for each channel.


 
  
 I guess one could run two iTubes, one for each channel if you had 4 RCA splitter cables, or made a DYI cable where each cable bifurcates and joins again into single L & R inputs/outputs, but I was talking more true balanced audio via XLR to XLR: impedance balanced lines.  It's an interesting thought if one had the bucks to spare. Me, I like the clarity of the single tube buffer in the iTube, that gives just enough tube glow to know it's there, but it isn't overtly colored to be point of flubbiness.


----------



## EVOLVIST

Having said that...

[COLOR=000000]*My idea for the iTube PRO:*[/COLOR]

The more I keep thinking about it, the more I imagine a bit more of what I know about the iFi vision, i.e.: an affordable (or relatively "affordable") product that spars, and beats the feathers out of similarly advertised products above its weight class, while at the same time offering the bells and whistles not found among the common fare.

*Enter the Stereo 50 All-In-One Vacuum Tube Amplifier by iFi:*

If I'm not mistaken, one of the things that seems apparent with iFi is that they have many irons in the fire, some of which are concurrent designs, pushing the boundaries a bit, while testing the waters with their customer base to see just how far they can take their product without breaking the bank and/or releasing an unmarketable product.

A very interesting bit of wing-spreading for iFi has been to release the Stereo 50, which I believe will hit the US in February or March 2015.

This is that bit of kit that contains the iDSD micro, the iCAN, and the iPhono in one box, but all a bit modified, adding bass and treble tone control knobs, as well as a tube stage which counts in at 6 tubes! If that weren't enough, the package comes with two speakers, housed in very sound, and endearing, bamboo casings, which adds up to a homage to vintage gear. Coming in at $2000 USD for the complete Stereo 50 package, this is designed for the computer audiophile who has an eye (and ear) for vinyl, as well. Just add your turntable, and you've got what appears to be a class act phono stage, totally surpassing their previous efforts in the iPhono, as well as the iTube.

See Below:




Note the tube stage: 2x ECF82s + 4xEL84X

*Concurrent Design...?*

In my opinion, one could hope!  When I tell people about the iTube mico I ask them to search for a tube buffer stage out there which doesn't cost them an arm and a leg. Let's face it, many tube buffers are often pricier that full blown tube driven headphone amps! With the iTube micro, however, for a mere $299 you're getting not only a solid product, but also one that's as advertised: "musical rightness." You're not getting this huge tubey sound, or over the top coloration; because, let's face it, as iFi caters to all audiophiles, whether we're headphone enthusiasts or speaker jockeys, the key has always been a balanced sound, even though tons of digital music could benefit from more tube warmth. In the case of the Stereo 50, most vinyl devotees agree, tubes = vinyl = warmth in the winter. I mean, try listening to a digital copy of The Beach Boys "Pet Sounds" in mono, on a solid state system using your HD800s. It sucks!

Enter the iTube PRO?

*What the World Needs Now...*

I'm not a designer nor an electrician, nor do I know much about circuits, and capacitors, and all that stuff which feeds our ear holes. But! I _do_ know that people like choices, and that's what iFi excels in!

As I mentioned in passing (a couple of posts above), I believe what we need now is a choice in tubes. Construct an all balanced box (hypothetically called the iTube PRO), where there are an array of tubes (see the abovementioned Stereo 50), but this box allows us to configure our own tube settings to taste. I don't believe anything out there exists like that, where you can toggle switches which will run your gear from pure solid state, to one tube for two channels, then one tube for each channel (two tubes), all the way up to a 6 tube array, for the most tubey of tube sounds. You have your simple "musical rightness" all the way to making your Buddy Holly files sound like he's in your parlor.

Again, I must stress that I know very little about electrical design and how to contruct a box like this; nevertheless, I have in my possession a Mesa Boogie Mark V amplifier, running at about $2300 USD - a guitar amp - which houses many tubes, all of which are configurable, by different channels, different toggles. In fact, in one channel, alone, you've got three different tube configurations, three different EQs, and a "bright" and "normal" switch, along with your standard bass, treble, mids, knobs, with selectable wattage.

This amp has three channels of the same wide functionality!

Now, how much would you pay just for one of those channels, out of the $2300? How about a much simplified version of that. No knobs, no EQ, no "bright" or "Normal" switches, and no watt selection. Instead, the basic premise is now translated into a tube array, only, where even the loftiest of tube amp/buffer manufacturers are losing their kilts over a tube buffer that offers any user, no matter how much or how little they want their tube warmth, to chose their listening pleasure thusly.

I don't know; maybe it's just a pipe dream. The thought of such a product, though, send the proverbial chills into my tender moments.

What would you pay? $1000 USD? $1500 USD? Less? More?

We know the iDSD PRO will come in at $1500 USD, which is a fairly stiff price considering previous iFi gear. The ability to go all balanced is one thing,  the 4 Burr-Brown DAC chips is another (TBD), while the integrated headphone amp promises to be...? Probably excellent! However, if it's $1500 worth of "excellent," why the need for an iCAN PRO?

I'm just playing devil's advocate here, really, concerning the iDSD PRO. I have no idea how swell this unit will be. What I do know is that as good as the iCAN micro is (and it _is_ damn good!) many people, including myself, have opted for external amps. Different strokes, right?

Personally, I'm thrilled with what iFi has given us so far. I can't wait for the future either!

How about something that doesn't exist? The iTube PRO. 

* 1st toggle for tubes on and tubes off (that's a pass through for solid state, and by flipping the switch you are now in tube mode).

* 2nd toggle one tube, both channels (your basic iTube micro sound), then flip the toggle up and you've now got two tubes running, one for each channel.

* 3rd toggle, three positions, a.) off, b.) 3rd tube both channels, c.) fourth tube both channels.

*4th toggle, three positions, a.) off, b.) 5th tube both channels c.) 6th tube both channels

1st Button - Digital Antidote Plus on/off
2nd Button - 3D for speakers on/off

Balanced XLR ins/outs
Unbalanced RCA ins/outs

As you can see, we're looking he ability to start off with the first toggle, and then flip on and off any other tubes you wish (always allowing them all to first warm up properly before listening). One could have simply the 2nd toggle switched to dual tubes, for each channel, and then bypass the 3rd, 4th and 5th tubes, and go directly to the 6th tube, or any combination, thereof. How about not even touching the 2nd toggle, and only flipping the switch for the 4th tube, which feeds both channels?  You can do that, too! 3rd and 5th only? Okay! 4th and 6th only? Yes! All on at once? Vinyl vultures, this is your dream (and quite a few headphone listeners, too). Competition? You've sunk my battleship, yo!

Hmmmm...how much money are we looking at again?

4th quarter of 2015. Make it happen.    I'll be glad to test drive it. :atsmile:


----------



## iFi audio

Hi,
  
 Nice work!
  
 The Pro series are for the hard core audio people.
  
 The Retro is aimed at the mainstream - as it is a simplied one-box, two speakers.
  
 Yes inside there is a shared platform of DSD/PCM/DXD using native Burr-Brown chipsets but that is where the similarities end.
  
 The Retro is a whole different line of products.


----------



## EVOLVIST

ifi audio said:


> Hi,
> 
> Nice work!
> 
> ...


 
  
 Right, that's what I figured about the Retro. In fact, my dealer claimed that I would be better off without the Retro 50, citing I should wait for the iDSD Pro, which...well, it got me thinking about to create a tube buffer/amp from iFi that was a cut above the rest, since that seems to be the goal for the rest of your line. I was simply using the basic tube stage premise of the Retro 50 to expound upon how a tube buffer could be done, with on/off switches, depending on one's tube flavor, while at the same time catering to three crowds: vinyl and/or speakers and/or headphone.
  
 6 tubes might be overkill, and chances are you are probably well on your way past the design phase of the of the iTube PRO; still, I thought I would throw out my thoughts, anyway, just for giggles.
  
 Anyway, I wish somebody would do something like that one of these days.


----------



## iFi audio

*Bristol Sound & Vision Show*

iFi will be exhibiting in the main hall at the upcoming Sound & Vision Show.

Date: 20-22th February 2015

Location: Marriott City Centre, Bristol. BS1 3AD

http://www.bristolshow.co.uk/

There you will be able audition the nano, micro and upcoming Retro range.

We look forward to seeing you there. For iCLUB members, there may even be a surprise!


----------



## Esprit

We want tre Pro!!!


----------



## EVOLVIST

esprit said:


> We want tre Pro!!!




What was the last word on that? It'll hit the market in May 2015?


----------



## Esprit

> It'll hit the market in May 2015?


 
 I hope so (as I hope it will be a better product than competitors... not only on paper...)


----------



## EVOLVIST

iFi... will it be the High End Society show in Munich, May 14-17th for the unveiling of the final iDSD Pro, or is this still proto stage?


----------



## iFi audio

evolvist said:


> iFi... will it be the High End Society show in Munich, May 14-17th for the unveiling of the final iDSD Pro, or is this still proto stage?


 
  
 Hi,
  

  
 ...is a little far ahead for us to confirm at this moment in time.
  
 As we all live in the real world, deadlines are very difficult to stick hard and fast to.
  
 For example, the Micro iDSD which was Crowd-Designed here on Head-Fi was delayed by 1 month because we caught some little bugs and wanted to whack them on the head with a very large mallet before they were released into the wild.
  
 We felt quite awkward as some Octa-Adopters had already paid a deposit to our dealers (even though we said just reserve but don't pay).
  
 Thankfully, you customers were quite understanding of this situation as we made this public and very clear - we dont ship until we EXPECT it will surprise on the upside (as opposed to downside).
  
 Plus in the real world, the cost of returns arising from software/hardware issues can hurt a company in more ways than one! (touchwood we ain't been there yet).
  
 So to answer your question - yes there will be at least the prototype, possibly the first production unit but we cannot commit and hope you understand!
  
 ps. next week, iFi skunkworks may show a little leg.


----------



## BillsonChang007

nah... one does not have to worry about how iFi do their work. its always the best. shall patiently wait for the Mini to go into the wild


----------



## EVOLVIST

Edit Post


----------



## EVOLVIST

billsonchang007 said:


> nah... one does not have to worry about how iFi do their work. its always the best. shall patiently wait for the Mini to go into the wild


 
  
 I'm with you 100%. I wouldn't presume to ask others to be equally patient, but we all want it to be best product, so I wouldn't mind waiting until year's end if that's what it took for iFi to be certain they're shipping out exactly what they want to feed our ear holes.
  
 In the meantime, most of us in this thread have some sort of iFi product, so if we've already reached iDSD micro, or iDSD nano level of quality, the wait shouldn't be too painful, given that we're already digging some of the best sound on the planet, as is. 
  
  Like dead Orson Welles here: we've got plenty of time, before it's time, only _until_ it's time.


----------



## Esprit

ifi audio said:


> So to answer your question - yes there will be at least the prototype, possibly the first production unit but we cannot commit and hope you understand!


 
 Ugh, nothing for May


----------



## BillsonChang007

evolvist said:


> In the meantime, most of us in this thread have some sort of iFi product, so if we've already reached iDSD micro, or iDSD nano level of quality, the wait shouldn't be too painful, given that we're already digging some of the best sound on the planet, as is.


 
 That's right! The Micro iDSD is very impressive! Which is why I am looking forward to see the upcoming iDSD 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 [it will be a nice comparison between it and the Chord Hugo TT]


----------



## earfonia

ifi audio said:


> Hi,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Please don't launch it until it is perfect! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 We all can wait


----------



## sdolezalek

Two questions:
  
 1)  Any thoughts yet on whether you'll have a program like the "Octa-Adopter" program for the "Pro" series?  
  
 2) As more and more of us are using software front ends like Audirvana/Izotope or HQ Player, have you thought about optimizing for the interaction with those players and their ability to upsample material to the optimal input setting of the DAC chip?


----------



## iFi audio

sdolezalek said:


> Two questions:
> 
> 1)  Any thoughts yet on whether you'll have a program like the "Octa-Adopter" program for the "Pro" series?
> 
> 2) As more and more of us are using software front ends like Audirvana/Izotope or HQ Player, have you thought about optimizing for the interaction with those players and their ability to upsample material to the optimal input setting of the DAC chip?


 
  
 Hi.
  
 To answer your questions:
  
  
 1) "Any thoughts yet on whether you'll have a program like the "Octa-Adopter" program for the "Pro" series?"
 Something is afoot. More later on this when it is closer to being soup. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
  
 2) "As more and more of us are using software front ends like Audirvana/Izotope or HQ Player, have you thought about optimizing for the interaction with those players and their ability to upsample material to the optimal input setting of the DAC chip?"
  
  
 The Burr-Brown chipset we use allows for a "Bit-Perfect" and this to us, is the raison d'etrre.
  
 We primarily only like one thing - the sound of unprocessed sound (there are exceptions but they are exactly that).
  
 Our history is that we don't like to Up/OverSample. Information theory and all that.
  
 If you take a look at AMR machines, you will get a feeling for our audio DNA.
  
 To us, sushi tastes nicer than grilled salmon but if one like grilled salmon, then it is still possible.
  
 i. At the PC end with your aforementioned audio players.
 ii. At the iDSD, we do include digital filters both a "measure perfect"  option and one "measure ok and sound better than the measure perfect" filter, because not everyone likes Sushi.
  
 As some of the staff are more partial to Burger King, you can "have it your way".
  

 With the iDSD micro, iDAC2 micro and iDSD mini/Pro you can already bypass any digital processing in the DAC for PCM and directly stream unmanipulated data to the DAC (Bitperfect mode). Thenano and Retro only bypass the digital filter for sampe rates above 192kHz PCM as they do not have the switchable "Bitperfect"  Filter option.
   
  
 


 In DSD mode there is _never_ any digital processing - DSD is always in "digital filter bypass mode" with DSD signals directly send to the analogue filter and no digital processing.
  
  
  
 We do not see any Up/OverSampling as "optimisation", other than making very high sample rates availble and allowing digital processing bypass, which is precisely what all digital iFi products (except the original iDAC) allow.
   
With regard to our ongoing audio software players auditions - as is AMR/iFi's company policy, we do not comment on other manufacturers' products. But what we can say is that what you see us using at shows (watch out for upcoming Bristol Show) and demos is what we find sounds "nicest to our ears". And those are the ones that do not mess with a high-quality, well-recorded music file.

  
 Cheers.


----------



## jexby

Um,
iDAC2 micro?

Coming soon or typo or ?


----------



## ClieOS

jexby said:


> Um,
> iDAC2 micro?
> 
> Coming soon or *typo *or ?


 
  
 Probably not a typo, as the original iDAC simply doesn't give you any option on digital filter (all built-in on the ESS's DAC and that). Definitely love to see an update on the original iDAC as iDSD micro already pushes the envelop too far ahead.


----------



## iFi audio

jexby said:


> Um,
> iDAC2 micro?
> 
> Coming soon or typo or ?





> Originally Posted by *ClieOS*
> 
> Probably not a typo, as the original iDAC simply doesn't give you any option on digital filter (all built-in on the ESS's DAC and that). Definitely love to see an update on the original iDAC as iDSD micro already pushes the envelop too far ahead.


 
  
 Well spotted!
  
 Jexby and ClieOS both had their 3 Shredded Wheat today.
  
  
 Yes, the iDAC2 is the next one out of the iFi Skunkworks. It is the successor to the the iDAC. ETA - on/before end of March.
  
 Instead of the ESS Sabre, it will have the Burr-Brown chip as used in the nano iDSD and micro iDSD.
  
 Native DSD256 & 384k PCM, a more powerful Headphone Amp (>300mW 16 Ohm) and some other new tech.
  
  
  
  
*Think:*
  
iDSD micro = best Portable and SPDIF DAC under $xxx
  
 The iDSD micro was designed to be the best portable DAC we could make, with an emphasis on Headphone performance. It is the most advanced product we make, a road warrior that pushes the boundaries of what is possible.
  
  
iDAC2 =  best Desktop USB only DAC under $xxx
  
 The iDAC2 was designed to offer the best straightforward USB Desktop DAC we could make. In effect the same design remit that gave birth to the original iDAC in 2012.
  
 In the interim we have learned much more in the process of the many other projects that are now shipping (or still await finaly production). We have brought this to the iDAC2 design.
  
 Additionally, time has moved on. Where in 2012 having an affordable USB DAC with 192K "Full HD" was still novel, we want to keep pushing the envelope where affordable gear really needs to offer at least DSD, with DSD256 and 384kHz DXD now being "Full HD".
  
  
  
  
  
*Sonically:*
 The iDAC2 is based upon the micro iDSD (but slightly different for pure desktop use as there is no internal battery of course).
  
 The headphone section is a dual-mono headphone amp, each channel with 940uF to backup the power delivery to the HP Amp, for better dynamics and bass...
  
 The line outs incorporate a Class A buffer circuit that combines J-Fets and Bipolar transistors to deliver enough Class A power to drive 600 Ohm loads with 0.005% THD - this originally came from developments for the Pro Audio line.
  
 Though the mini/pro line ended up not using it, it fitted the iDAC2 design remit to a T. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 We're listening to the iDAC2 in a "little big rig" with the LCD-Xs right now...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 So it is running, undergoing field trials and is on the way!


----------



## sdolezalek

Thank you for the very detailed response. I too tend toward the "sushi end of things," however, I have found that with my iDSD Nano upsampling 16/44 files to the point where the digital filter is bypassed with both Izotope and HQ Player can (if the right filter settings are chosen very carefully) sound better (to my ears) than straight redbook run only through the Nano.  I have not found any benefit to upsampling DSD64 to DSD128 or DSD256 before running it through the iDSD although I have found that listening to well recorded DSD256 can be enlightening.  That being said, it seems that the "best" settings do vary by DAC chip implementation and overall system and it took me months of experimenting with iZotope (and I'm still in the process of experimenting with the filters in HQ Player).  
  
 As you put it in your response:  "We do not see any Up/OverSampling as "optimisation", other than making very high sample rates available and allowing digital processing bypass, which is precisely what all digital iFi products (except the original iDAC) allow,"  I'm trying to use the in the PC/MAC upsampling only to get to the level where digital processing is bypassed.  Of course that leaves open the question whether there is any difference between feeding the DAC 24/192 and 24/88 versus 24/384 or 24/352 material?
  
 Since I haven't been able to attend any of your shows, I'll have to watch your videos very closely to see which software front ends you are playing with.


----------



## jexby

ifi audio said:


> We're listening to the iDAC2 in a "little big rig" with the LCD-Xs right now...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 wow, amazing!  eagerly awaiting a new forum thread dedicated to iDAC2-  
 where we can inquire about features such as:  dual-mono DAC, built in iPurifier, 3D, etc.


----------



## john57

I am a bit confused here. The iDAC2, a desktop DAC is coming out before the Pro(mini) desktop DAC?


----------



## technobear

I look forward to listening to the iDAC2 with the LCD-X at Bristol (even if it has to be privately). 

I may have to bring the T1's with me (or have you bought a set now?)


----------



## jexby

john57 said:


> I am a bit confused here. The iDAC2, a desktop DAC is coming out before the Pro(mini) desktop DAC?


 
  
 yup seems that way for sure.
 makes sense considering the overlap iDAC2 shares with iDSD micro.
  
 whereas Pro/mini has a whole set of different features, size, etc.


----------



## iFi audio

john57 said:


> I am a bit confused here. The iDAC2, a desktop DAC is coming out before the Pro(mini) desktop DAC?


 
  
 Hi,
  
Retro Stereo 50+LS3.5 
 - is in the next few weeks.
 - Europe first (Bristol Show). Then North America. Then Rest of World.
  
iDAC2
 - End of March/beg of April.
  
Pro series iDSD and iCAN
 May. Though it will be progressive as there are different models but iDSD and iCAN are the first 2 out of the starting gate.
  
 Cheers.


----------



## JootecFromMars

ifi audio said:


> Retro Stereo 50+LS3.5
> - is in the next few weeks.
> - Europe first (Bristol Show). Then North America. Then Rest of World.


 
  
 Was looking at this last night on your website. Looks awesome. What's the expected pricing?


----------



## Vartan

iDAC2 gonna have separate power supply unit or USB powered like original iDAC ?
  
 and what about built in iPurifier?


----------



## iFi audio

jootecfrommars said:


> Was looking at this last night on your website. Looks awesome. What's the expected pricing?


 
  
 Hi,
  
 Total system price is expected to be US$2k (ex-tax) / Euro 2.2k (with VAT).
  
 The headphone section of the Stereo 50 (which is of most interest to Head-Fi'ers) is quite juicy.
  
 The 3.5mm and 6.3mm inputs can be connected simultaneously.
  
 Yes - the 3.5mm has built-in IEM match so that one can listen with Shure 535s or Alclair RSM iems (which we use) and HE-6 on the 6.3mm. The volume control controls both of course.
  
 Alclair is working tirelessly - to get their new "Curves" over to us for Bristol Show. We hope they land in time.
  

  
 So you can try them with the Stereo 50 at the show.


----------



## EVOLVIST

ifi audio said:


> Pro series iDSD and iCAN
> May. Though it will be progressive as there are different models but iDSD and iCAN are the first 2 out of the starting gate.
> 
> Cheers.




Just to clarify, to make sure I'm not reading between the lines (as I'm wont to do), we are not talking about different models for the iDSD Pro series, correct? Only one iDSD Pro and one iCan Pro?

That is, I wouldn't want to purchase the iDSD Pro and then three months later there is an iDSD Pro+ or something like that - an upgraded model.


----------



## softsound

iDAC2 (declared as a usb-only DAC). Sounds very promising.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Since it is a desktop only DAC, why not add an spdif-in ?


----------



## iFi audio

evolvist said:


> Just to clarify, to make sure I'm not reading between the lines (as I'm wont to do), we are not talking about different models for the iDSD Pro series, correct? Only one iDSD Pro and one iCan Pro?
> 
> That is, I wouldn't want to purchase the iDSD Pro and then three months later there is an iDSD Pro+ or something like that - an upgraded model.


 
  
 Hi,
  
 To clairfy:
  
 iDSD Pro - one model
 iCAN Pro - one model (except for ths Stax module which is add-on for obvious reasons)
  
 Not really our style to upgrade the parts because we always throw the very best in the there in the first place - if you read the background info, you know what we mean.
  
 Our philosophy is akin to buying a car.
  
 EIther go for the top model or the base model. It seldom makes sense to buy a mid-model and then load it up with everything from the options list.
  
 You just end up with a more costly model.
  
 Not the AMR-iFi philosophy.
  
 Cheers.


----------



## iFi audio

softsound said:


> iDAC2 (declared as a usb-only DAC). Sounds very promising.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi,
  
 Because USB is the de facto most popular option.
  
 We considered it but in the end, we stuck to "best possible USB desktop DAC for $300 mark."
  
 If customers really need SPDIF, then nano or micro iDSD are better suited. But the nano only has SPDIF out.
  
 The iDAC2 sticks to the original which is pure USB-DAC - but done really well.
  
 Cheers.


----------



## lextek

I guess I need to read this whole thread.  Im ready to pick up a Micro IDSD.  Wondering if I should wait for the Pro?
  
 Just read the thread.  Micro ordered.


----------



## rickyleelee

ifi audio said:


> Hi,
> 
> Total system price is expected to be US$2k (ex-tax) / Euro 2.2k (with VAT).
> 
> ...


 
  
The alclairs looks very interesting - will check them out. How do they compare to the Shures?


----------



## obsidyen

ifi audio said:


> Well spotted!
> 
> Jexby and ClieOS both had their 3 Shredded Wheat today.
> 
> ...


 

 Hi,
  
 Will iDAC 2 have IEMatch? I was considering iDSD Micro but I won't take it outside, simply use it at home. iDAC2 seems a better choice for me. That said, I'd want to listen with my IEMs too. I hope it will have the IEMatch feature.


----------



## EVOLVIST

> *4) Passive Filtering and Discrete Analogue stage*
> The analogue stage in the iDSD Pro will be completely discrete, no Op-Amp IC's and in fact the actual discrete design will also not just be Op-Amp made discrete (and often worse than the best integrated ones) but will use something radically different, pure Class A (
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hey guys, question for all (and the above quote is related to the iDSD Pro outputs): given these features, would you take this to mean that this would relate to the XLR outputs, as well, leading into, let's say a headphone amp?
  
 I'm showing some of my lack of technical knowledge, being that I'm used to Op-Amps, but I've read a few articles to bolster my knowledge, concerning passive, discrete, amplification, sooooo...
  
 What I'm trying to get at here, if I understand this correctly, if the iDSD Pro runs XLR outs without the use of Op-Amps, then the balanced signal going into my HP amp should not have the colorization intrinsic in most Op-Amp based preamps?
  
 That's kind of been a problem of mine, for a while, even with the iDSD micro, that if I don't go direct, but instead opt for preamp mode, the signal going into my headphone amp is in some way colored by the preamp sound. I'm not getting the straight sound, in other words.
  
 In a perfect world I would like to set my HP amp to unity gain and then control my volume with a transparent preamp. It sounds like this is what iFi is getting at here, or am I off base?


----------



## john57

When IFI stated that:
  
_"not just be Op-Amp made discrete (and often worse than the best integrated ones)"_
  
 I find this to be true with another manufacturer DAC's The early version was all discrete and the sound was so so. When the next version uses op-Amps the sound quality improves.  It is harder to make good sounding discrete unit as compared to the best integrated design. I have no beef about Op-Amps or integrated class D amps.


----------



## john57

Personally I am more interested in the iDAC2 since I have very good amps both SS and tubes. I also am interested in the Pro iCAN and wonder what tubes it will be using.


----------



## EVOLVIST

john57 said:


> When IFI stated that:
> 
> _"not just be Op-Amp made discrete (and often worse than the best integrated ones)"_
> 
> I find this to be true with another manufacturer DAC's The early version was all discrete and the sound was so so. When the next version uses op-Amps the sound quality improves.  It is harder to make good sounding discrete unit as compared to the best integrated design. I have no beef about Op-Amps or integrated class D amps.




I follow ya. Certainly. It's just to me, however, every time I go out of an Op-amp pre into an my Auditor, which offers their own proprietary SUPRA Ops, the combo either comes out sounding squeezed or too sibilant: just processed, like a form of double amping.

If I'm reading iFi right, a well designed discrete C-L-C analog outputs from the XLRs should cure this ill. But I don't know if I'm reading them right.


----------



## john57

evolvist said:


> I follow ya. Certainly. It's just to me, however, every time I go out of an Op-amp pre into an my Auditor, which offers their own proprietary SUPRA Ops, the combo either comes out sounding squeezed or too sibilant: just processed, like a form of double amping.
> 
> If I'm reading iFi right, a well designed discrete C-L-C analog outputs from the XLRs should cure this ill. But I don't know if I'm reading them right.


 
 From what IFI is saying at the last part for me is that the outputs should have filtered all the RF interference that the device may have pick up without effecting the audio range.  RF interference pollution is becoming more of a issue with all the wireless devices in the home.


----------



## EVOLVIST

john57 said:


> From what IFI is saying at the last part for me is that the outputs should have filtered all the RF interference that the device may have pick up without effecting the audio range.  RF interference pollution is becoming more of a issue with all the wireless devices in the home.


 
  
 Right, but I'm more concerned with the first part, to wit:

  


> *4) Passive Filtering and Discrete Analogue stage*
> The analogue stage in the iDSD Pro will be completely discrete, no Op-Amp IC's and in fact the actual discrete design will also not just be Op-Amp made discrete (and often worse than the best integrated ones) but will use something radically different, pure Class A (
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I would assume, but don't want to presume, that this would apply to the analog XLR outputs being a discrete non OPA design, pure Class A? Meaning that connecting via balanced ICs to a headphone amp, the user would get the benefits of an all-discrete design, without any overt colorization intrinsic in running OPAs from one device to another OPA device.
  
 If so, this would be something to truly cheer about, as a major feature, and not something that's just an extra $1000 with 2 extra DAC chips, a remote control, more I/Os and another "bit perfect" setting. Class A _and_ a discrete design, for the HP Out, XLRs and RCA? I hope I'm reading this right; moreover, that this feature doesn't get lost in the wash when we're talking the benefits of the Pro series.


----------



## EVOLVIST

> *iFi...I hate to bug you, but might you know the answer to this query? Am I off base?*


 


> *4) Passive Filtering and Discrete Analogue stage*
> The analogue stage in the iDSD Pro will be completely discrete, no Op-Amp IC's and in fact the actual discrete design will also not just be Op-Amp made discrete (and often worse than the best integrated ones) but will use something radically different, pure Class A (
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I would assume, but don't want to presume, that this would apply to the analog XLR outputs being a discrete non OPA design, pure Class A? Meaning that connecting via balanced ICs to a headphone amp, the user would get the benefits of an all-discrete design, without any overt colorization intrinsic in running OPAs from one device to another OPA device.
  
 If so, this would be something to truly cheer about, as a major feature, and not something that's just an extra $1000 with 2 extra DAC chips, a remote control, more I/Os and another "bit perfect" setting. Class A _and_ a discrete design, for the HP Out, XLRs and RCA? I hope I'm reading this right; moreover, that this feature doesn't get lost in the wash when we're talking the benefits of the Pro series.


----------



## iFi audio

evolvist said:


> I would assume, but don't want to presume, that this would apply to the analog XLR outputs being a discrete non OPA design, pure Class A? Meaning that connecting via balanced ICs to a headphone amp, the user would get the benefits of an all-discrete design, without any overt colorization intrinsic in running OPAs from one device to another OPA device.
> 
> If so, this would be something to truly cheer about, as a major feature, and not something that's just an extra $1000 with 2 extra DAC chips, a remote control, more I/Os and another "bit perfect" setting. Class A _and_ a discrete design, for the HP Out, XLRs and RCA? I hope I'm reading this right; moreover, that this feature doesn't get lost in the wash when we're talking the benefits of the Pro series.


 
  
 Hi all.
  
 Give us a few days - as we speak, we are preparing some technical information on all of this.
  
 And also preparing for the Retro launch at the same time too. And also the Bristol Show which is next weekend.
  
 We wish to draw something up in-depth but without giving away our secret sauce.


----------



## BillsonChang007

ifi audio said:


> Hi all.
> 
> Give us a few days - as we speak, we are preparing some technical information on all of this.
> 
> ...


 
 I feel like we are more excited about the product than iFi.. haha


----------



## EVOLVIST

billsonchang007 said:


> I feel like we are more excited about the product than iFi.. haha


 
  
 Ha! Yeah, no doubt. For me the waiting isn't the hardest part; it's the not knowing the specs of what I'll be purchasing. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 The product will come. It's the anticipation of the goodies in the box, though. Otherwise, it's all good. I have become a firm believer in iFi, so when they say it'll be special, I have little doubt of that fact. It's simply a matter of _how _special.


----------



## iFi audio

evolvist said:


> *iFi...I hate to bug you, but might you know the answer to this query? Am I off base?*


 
  
 Hi,
  
 As promised....please bear in mind that we can only discuss so much as we have to walk a fine line between informing our customers and not giving away our secret recipes. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Kind regards
  
 iFi Skunkworks.
  
  
  
  
*To filter actively or to filter passively, this is the question (part 1)*

 Some interesting questions have been raised around the subject of the filter circuitry for the iDSD Pro and the amplification stages. It is a complex subject.
  
 So please bear with us as we do our best to inform you on the course we have taken and the reasons behind.
  
 There is a whole lotta tech speak to crunch through - and it may seem heavy going. So if you suffer from insomnia, you may wish to bookmark this.
  
 Without further ado…
  


*Why filter the signal at all?*

 First, we must understand that a DAC-Chip will produce substantial supra-sonic output (which we justly may call “digital distortion”) in addition to the Audio signal we want. Just how this looks like depends on many factors. Rather than looking all options, let's focus on the BB DSD chip we use in iFi products.

 It has a core that runs normally at a speed of around 11.3MHz to 12.3MHz. This is a very high speed. This is the speed at which the elements in the core switch. As the process is switching, it creates higher frequency components reaching much higher than main switching frequency.

 This switching is one of the processes that produces this noise outside the audio band, the others are related to sample theory and produces what is often called “images”. Simply said, the actual audio signal is “mirrored” around the sample rate in a frequency plot, hence the name mirror images.
  

  
 Source: http://defenseelectronicsmag.com/site-files/defenseelectronicsmag.com/files/archive/rfdesign.com/images/digitalpll-Figure03.jpg

 Most audio circuitry cannot handle such supra-sonic signals, they are too fast and cause distortion to our audio signal. So what we require with any DAC is a filter that so to speak “strains out” the unwanted noise and leaves the audio signal. And ideally it gets all the noise and leaves the audio totally untouched.

 In the real world ideal filters do not exist. A filter that removes the supra-sonic noise will have impact on the audio range and will introduce either phase-response variation, transient-response variation or both.
  
  

  
 Source: http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/filter/fil82.gif

 We have to sail between the Scylla of insufficient filter selectivity (too much noise gets through) and the Charybdis of excessive filter impact on the audio (we filter out most noise and pad a lot of distortion the music). But filter to some degree we must, so we must chart a course that will hopefully take through instead being wrecked on rocks of Charybdis or sucked into the chaotic whirlpool of the Scylla.
  

  
_Next time: Part 2: How to filter Digital Audio_


----------



## EVOLVIST

ifi audio said:


> Hi,
> 
> As promised....please bear in mind that we can only discuss so much as we have to walk a fine line between informing our customers and not giving away our secret recipes.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Wow!  Thank you. This is exactly the nerdy stuff that most of us like.  Keep 'em coming...and good luck at the Bristol show!


----------



## Seamaster

Can you give us little more detail or direction on iDSD Pro? Like external dimension, connection interface, power supply. etc? Thanks.


----------



## EVOLVIST

seamaster said:


> Can you give us little more detail or direction on iDSD Pro? Like external dimension, connection interface, power supply. etc? Thanks.


 
  
 Preliminary data posted in this very thread:
  

*iDSD mini PRO*    *Fully-Balanced DAC (USB/SPDIF/AES-EBU/Bluetooth)*   Formats:44.1/48/88.2/96/176.4/192/352.8/384/705.6/768KHz PCM    2.8/3.1/5.6/6.2/11.2/12.4/22.4/24.8MHz DSD    DXD   Filter:PCM: Standard/Minimum Phase digital, Bitperfect 1, Bitperfect 2; selectable   DSD: Standard/Extended Range/Minimal analogue, selectable    DXD: Bitperfect Processing, fixed analogue filter   DAC:Quad Core Dual Mono Bit Perfect DSD, PCM & DXD DAC by Burr Brown in current output mode (4-DAC Chip; 8-Channel; 16-Signals)Clock:                            Ultra low jitter Crystal Clock (rms jitter < 300 Femtoseconds)   Analogue Stages:Balanced fully discrete Class A - Non-Feedback I/V conversion by single BISS Supertransistor Balanced fully discrete Class A - Non-Feedback Line output buffer using J-Fets and BISS Supertransistors High Speed current mode Class A Headphone Buffer with balanced fully discrete Class A - Non-Feedback input buffer using J-Fets and BISS SupertransistorsVolume Control:Balanced 4-Way precision analogue by ALPS, Remote Control, can be bypassed for Line OutsAudio Path passives:Tantalum Oxide Thin Film thin film surface mounted resistors,    TDK high stability C0G surface mounted capacitors    Panasonic PolyPhenylene Sulfide stacked film surface mounted capacitors   Elna Silmic II Electrolytic Capacitors   Input: (selectable)USB 3.0    compatible with iPhone,iPod, iPad and Android Devices USB-OTG#    SPDIF RCA/Optical (only PCM up to 192KHz)   AES-EBU Balanced    BNC SPDIF Unbalanced    Bluetooth with aptX   Audio System Support:PC - ASIO 2.2, WASAPI, Kernel Streaming (KS), Directsound    Mac - Core Audio   OutputXLR True Balanced Audio (Output adjustable 4/10V @ 0dBFS [+14dBu/+22dBu])   Audio RCA (2V/5V @ 0dBFS)    6.3mm Headphone 4V/10V maximum output    Headphone Output Power 4,000mW/16R max.   Dynamic Range:TBD   THD &N (Line)TBD   THD &N (HP 100mW)TBD   Output Power (16R):> 4000mW   PowerSource:External DC 14V (compatible with 12V Battery systems)   Power Consumption:< 15W   Size:220mm x 62mm X 210mm (W X H X D including feet, knobs and connectors)


----------



## kawaivpc1

Wow, how much is IDSD Pro? Does it sound better than iDSD Micro? When is its release date??


----------



## Franatic

evolvist said:


> Wow!  Thank you. This is exactly the nerdy stuff that most of us like.  Keep 'em coming...and good luck at the Bristol show!


 

 + 1 Great job prodding ifi into giving us info, EVOLVIST! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I love my idsd micro. My only issue is that ifi doesn't make an idsd without the headphone amp. Many of us are using it in main systems direct. I would love to see an idsd pro version without the headphone amp. That could either save us money or get us additional dac features.
  
 Keep up the great work ifi....loving my idsd micro....as a dac only. My Woo WA2 is my headphone amp and preamp.


----------



## BillsonChang007

ifi audio said:


> Hi,
> 
> As promised....please bear in mind that we can only discuss so much as we have to walk a fine line between informing our customers and not giving away our secret recipes.
> 
> ...


 
 and then after reading this...


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



I have a sudden urge of working in iFi's technical team after going through all the neccesary studies and degrees and stuff xD


----------



## kawaivpc1

If this is "mini" version of iDSD, what are we getting in the end???

iDSD Regular would be some kind of big stereo system then?


----------



## ClieOS

kawaivpc1 said:


> If this is "mini" version of iDSD, what are we getting in the end???
> 
> iDSD Regular would be some kind of big stereo system then?


 
  
 It is called the 'Pro' series now. No more 'mini' and certainly no 'regular'. If they start making anything bigger and more expensive, it might as well be part of AMR's line-up instead.


----------



## kawaivpc1

clieos said:


> It is called the 'Pro' series now. No more 'mini' and certainly no 'regular'. If they start making anything bigger and more expensive, it might as well be part of AMR's line-up instead.



I see. Has anyone heard this yet??

I want to know how this unit will sound compared to Benchmard DAC2.


----------



## d1sturb3d

it is not released yet..but I think they have it lined up on a show.


----------



## iFi audio

*To filter actively or to filter passively, this is the question (part 2)*
  
  
*How to filter digital audio*
 If we exclude digital filters (which are a whole other can of worms), to create filters, we require electronic parts that change with frequency in predictable ways.
  
  
1. Simple Filter - goes so far
  
 The simplest filters combine just a single resistor and either an inductor or a capacitor. The problem is that such simple filters are not very selective. They impact the signal little, but also do not do much for the noise.
  

Source: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e0/1st_Order_Lowpass_Filter_RC.svg/2000px-1st_Order_Lowpass_Filter_RC.svg.png

 (see also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_filter#Passive_filters)

 We normally need better selectivity than we can get that way.
  
  
2. Passive Filter - good in theory, not easy in practice
  
 One way is to use combinations of multiple resistors with inductors and capacitors. This is called a passive filter.
  
 With real capacitors and inductors such a filter can remain effective to as high as 100MHz. So it can very effectively filter not just the images but also the switching noise.
  

Source: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0e/Lumped_elements_ladder_filter_order_4.svg/450px-Lumped_elements_ladder_filter_order_4.svg.png

 Quality inductors take space and cost money and it is often difficult to find inductors that do not cause substantial distortion themselves. This is why this method is rarely seen today, even though it approaches an ideal filter quite closely and of course was used in early generation digital equipment.
  
  
3. Active Filter - another way to skin a cat
  
 The other way is to use an active filter. Here we only use resistors and capacitors and “simulate” inductors using amplification. This means we rely on the amplification function of the active element to shape the filtering.
  
 - one key advantage other than getting rid of inductors is that active filters allow the designer much, much freedom in trade-offs between selectivity and filter impact on the signal.
 - another advantage is that these filters are widely documented and are easily calculated and modelled.

Source: http://www.sussex.ac.uk/Users/pjly20/ras100_clip_image002_0000.jpg

 (see also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_filter )

 There is a downside. Most of the common amplifier elements loose amplification as frequencies rise. Many audio Op-Amps will have no remaining gain at frequencies above a few MHz. So at very high frequencies the filter no longer filters as it should.

 So such active filters are easier and cheaper to implement than adequate passive filters and can filter the so-called images well. But they struggle to filter the switching noise from the DAC as well, or indeed often at all.
  
  
*Decisions decisions, what is one to do?*
  
 In the end it is the choice of the designer _how_ to make sure all the different requirements are met and how trade-offs between mutually exclusive requirements are arranged.

 In the iDSD nano we rely only on passive filtering, but the filter selectivity is not as extreme as with other iFi DACs.
  
 In the iDSD micro, iDAC2 micro and the DAC in the Retro Stereo 50 we use a combination of passive and active filtering, using very wide bandwidth Op-Amps.
  
 In the iDSD Pro, budget/size constraints are less of an issue and thus we can implement a fully-passive filter.
  
 Think of the nano iDSD as BMW M1, micro iDSD/iDAC2 as M3 and Pro iDSD as the M5.
  
 Each has its own price and engine/performance characteristics to suit different users.
  
 (As a small side note, as we develop our code in-house, we "remap" the onboard XMOS (among other things) to push them beyond the theoretical _read: datasheet specs_. As is evident from the  Quad-DSD256 and Octa-DSD512 on the iFi platform. So our M-line is beyond the factory version.)
  
 Before you ask, for those car buffs among you, the BMW i8 is the reserve of AMR.


----------



## EVOLVIST

ifi audio said:


> 3. Active Filter - another way to skin a cat
> 
> There is a downside. Most of the common amplifier elements loose amplification as frequencies rise. *Many audio Op-Amps will have no remaining gain at frequencies above a few MHz*. _*So at very high frequencies the filter no longer filters as it should.*_
> 
> ...


 
  
 The "secret sauce" is all over the place in here, especially where I've bolded and/or underlined. How to implement a fully-passive filter...well, you've said it's up to the engineers, which leads us to your "As a small side note," quote, which really isn't a small side note at all, reading between the lines. Indeed, your closing paragraph, in parenthesis, no less, isn't really parenthetical, either, as your "small side note" would lead us to believe! Haha! 
  
 I don't think I'm reading too much into it, this time. You're equating the leap in implementing Quad and Octa-DSD, the iFi way, with new technological leaps* in how you're now implementing fully-passive filtering, with no OPA, etc. etc... I mean, this is how a layman reads it.
  
 Keep 'em coming! Got any Bristol photos?
  
 *Or, rather, that iFi is wont to borrow from past technologies which worked very well, why reinvent the wheel? Instead, borrow from the old masters, but implement in such a way that technologies - old and new - dovetail in such a way that something wholly unique is created.


----------



## iFi audio

evolvist said:


> The "secret sauce" is all over the place in here, especially where I've bolded and/or underlined. How to implement a fully-passive filter...well, you've said it's up to the engineers, which leads us to your "As a small side note," quote, which really isn't a small side note at all, reading between the lines. Indeed, your closing paragraph, in parenthesis, no less, isn't really parenthetical, either, as your "small side note" would lead us to believe! Haha!
> 
> I don't think I'm reading too much into it, this time. You're equating the leap in implementing Quad and Octa-DSD, the iFi way, with new technological leaps in how you're now implementing fully-passive filtering, with no OPA, etc. etc... I mean, this is how a layman reads it.
> 
> Keep 'em coming! Got any Bristol photos?


 
  
 Hi,
  
 The above is not the secret sauce....we tell you how we do it but if someone really wants to do implement this, it isnt that easy.
  
 The source links are to wiki et al!
  
 If you read the micro iDSD Crowd-Design thread index, you get the gist of how much we divulge...


----------



## EVOLVIST

ifi audio said:


> Hi,
> 
> The above is not the secret sauce....we tell you how we do it but if someone really wants to do implement this, it isnt that easy.
> 
> ...




No, no...I didn't mean to imply that you've spilt any secret sauce. The sauce is behind the scenes. This is just the whiff of the sauce in the air, which lets us know it's there. 

Yeah, believe me: I've read the crowd design articles many times. I love the insight. But even if you were to tell me exactly how it's all done, I wouldn't want to hear it. One still marvels at the magician, even though we know there's scientific law behind it all.


----------



## Rich Brkich

So, with the iDSD Pro/Mini I see mention of balanced analog outputs thanks to 4 DAC (dual differential) topology which will be used. For those folks who are going to want to hook this up to a nice single ended (i.e RCA) preamps/amps gear based HiFi rig (or headphone amp), will there also be unbalanced analog outputs???? How will they be generated so that they get to take advantage of the balanced DAC/analog stage topology???
  
 P.S. Sorry if this has been discussed before - I looked through most of this  27 page thread and did not see anything about this, but could have missed it.


----------



## sdolezalek

I'm not sure I quite follow the BMW analogy.  The BMW M1 is a classic that now typically sells for half a million dollars or so (which is at the very other end of the spectrum from how I think of the Nano).  I get the M3 and M5  comparison, but I was really thinking that the whole iDSD series was like the I1, I3 and I8 (the new experimental edgy products) and that the AMR versions were really the M3, M5 and M7? versions -- souped up but thoroughly tested flagship products...
  
 In fact, I figured my I-8 and my iDSD Pro might arrive on my doorstep at about the same time late this spring.  Either way, the Pro still sounds like very much a product worth waiting for.


----------



## JuleZ3C

sdolezalek said:


> I'm not sure I quite follow the BMW analogy.  The BMW M1 is a classic ...


 
 iFi had the 1M in mind rather than the M1


----------



## iFi audio

julez3c said:


> iFi had the 1M in mind rather than the M1


 
  
 Correct - our bad for typing M1 insteam of 1M. Hope this did not cause too much confusion and you get the gist!


----------



## Maelob

oh nooo, if i known about it, i would have never contributed to the Geek Pulse campaing Lol oh well


----------



## diamondears

clieos said:


> It is called the 'Pro' series now. No more 'mini' and certainly no 'regular'. If they start making anything bigger and more expensive, it might as well be part of AMR's line-up instead.



Does AMR have a DAC-amp unit?


----------



## diamondears

I wish iFi would put as many digital filters as possible on the iFi pro. All the popular filters as well as its proprietary filters. Also hope iFi would develop not only filters that transparently reproduces the intended recording with minimal noise, but also filters that colors the sound like what tube rolling does that creates "fun" sound signatures. With DSD capability, this would be a truly awesome endgame integrated DAC-amp.


----------



## ClieOS

diamondears said:


> Does AMR have a DAC-amp unit?


 
  
 For loud speaker, yes. For headphone, no. Though it is sometime quite possible to plug a pair of very insufficient planar headphone directly into the power amp section.


----------



## diamondears

clieos said:


> For loud speaker, yes. For headphone, no. Though it is sometime quite possible to plug a pair of very insufficient planar headphone directly into the power amp section.


 
 Yes, thanks. So when again will iFi release the pro iDSD?


----------



## iFi audio

diamondears said:


> Yes, thanks. So when again will iFi release the pro iDSD?


 
  
 Hi,
  
 The iCAN Pro and the iDSD Pro are being developed simultaneously.
  
 At least one will make Munich in May (though we are aiming for both).
  
 The iCAN Pro we may have a sneak peek for you guys soon on here in the not too distant future.
  
 Cheers.


----------



## Franatic

ifi audio said:


> Hi,
> 
> The iCAN Pro and the iDSD Pro are being developed simultaneously.
> 
> ...


 
 I have asked this before and received no reply from ifi. Will you make a version of the pro without the headphone amplifier section? I will use it straight up as a dac and feel I will be paying for functionality I will never use. I am sure I am not alone in this. I currently use the micro idsd in this way.......and love it. I just use the RCA out direct and don't use the headphone amp.
  
 Thanks, ifi! Keep up the great work and develpment. I love how you guys interact with the customers.


----------



## Jimi Zine

Ifi idsd Pro was originally going to make CES this year, then Bristol in the UK, then Munich in May, now looks like it won't even make this, c'mon Ifi please just give us a realistic release date for the idsd pro and stick to it


----------



## iFi audio

franatic said:


> I have asked this before and received no reply from ifi. Will you make a version of the pro without the headphone amplifier section? I will use it straight up as a dac and feel I will be paying for functionality I will never use. I am sure I am not alone in this. I currently use the micro idsd in this way.......and love it. I just use the RCA out direct and don't use the headphone amp.
> 
> Thanks, ifi! Keep up the great work and develpment. I love how you guys interact with the customers.


 
  
 Hi,
  
 The outline specs made it a few pages back. This is all we can give out at the moment as they may be subject to revisions.
  
 Cheers.


----------



## iFi audio

jimi zine said:


> Ifi idsd Pro was originally going to make CES this year, then Bristol in the UK, then Munich in May, now looks like it won't even make this, c'mon Ifi please just give us a realistic release date for the idsd pro and stick to it


 
  
 Hi,
  
 We do understand and empathise with your comments.
  
 But, and this is a big, but the iDSD Pro has morphed into another totally different beast.
  
 At AMR/iFi we only bring out products we know we are going to be "white hot".
  
 If it takes longer, then so be it. We ask for your trust on this.
  
 Given the iDSD Pro will be the flagship, it is even more imperative that we make this thing the "helicarrier" in a sea of aircraft carriers.


----------



## tf1216

ifi audio said:


> Hi,
> 
> We do understand and empathise with your comments.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I wonder what the General's listening room looks like on that thing.


----------



## EVOLVIST

franatic said:


> I have asked this before and received no reply from ifi. Will you make a version of the pro without the headphone amplifier section? I will use it straight up as a dac and feel I will be paying for functionality I will never use. I am sure I am not alone in this. I currently use the micro idsd in this way.......and love it. I just use the RCA out direct and don't use the headphone amp.
> 
> Thanks, ifi! Keep up the great work and develpment. I love how you guys interact with the customers.




Fran,

Just get yourself a headphone amp with XLR ins. Pro Audio is the way to go!

Or use the iDSD Pro as a preamp. If my understanding is correct and iFi is not using OP-Amps in the iDSD analog stage, you should be able to use this kit as a preamp without any overt colorization of the music, while lifting your gain to taste.

Tweak that system, bro!


----------



## Franatic

evolvist said:


> Fran,
> 
> Just get yourself a headphone amp with XLR ins. Pro Audio is the way to go!
> 
> ...


 
 Nick,
 I am using my Woo WA2 as my preamp and headphone amp! That is not going to change. I am open to upgrading the idsd micro as my dac if it comes at a reasonable cost. I've been doing nothing but tweaking, but at some point you have to make a decision on the neighborhood you're going to live in. If the idsd pro offers me an upgrade to my system at a price I'm willing to pay, I'm in. Too much invested in tubes and such on my WA2 to change that......and I love my WA2. With the tubes I have in there now this amp is awesome!


----------



## Musicans2

I am proud new owner of an ifi dsd micro!!! Addictive sound. Was going to buy a headphone amp from "senny" but now i am waiting for the PRO to come out! Question...will that have 512 special serial numbers and t-shirts and all that??? I missed the first one with the micro.


----------



## iFi audio

To Filter or to not Filter: Part 3  
  

  
  
*An Op-Amp digression*
  
 In our previous part 2 article, we mentioned the “O-Word” already, so let's digress a little.
  
 The Op-Amp is represented by the Triangle with the + and – sign inside in the triangle in the active filter above.

 When you read some advertising copy in high-end audio you may believe that Op-Amps are the latest and best thing since sliced bread and one might even believe some of the fellas using them invented them. But Op-Amp's are really old.

 The first functional design is normally attributed to Karl D. Swartzel Jr. of Bell Labs in 1941 and was used in a Radar assisted Artillery director during World War 2.

 The word “Operational Amplifier” for the type of amplifier circuit it embodies is documented in 1947 and the first “integrated op-amp”  using tubes was introduced in 1953
  
  
Historical timeline *1941: A vacuum tube op-amp.* An op-amp, defined as a general-purpose, DC-coupled, high gain, inverting feedback amplifier, is first found in U.S. Patent 2,401,779 "Summing Amplifier" filed by Karl D. Swartzel Jr. of Bell Labs in 1941. This design used three vacuum tubes to achieve a gain of 90 dB and operated on voltage rails of ±350 V. It had a single inverting input rather than differential inverting and non-inverting inputs, as are common in today's op-amps. Throughout World War II, Swartzel's design proved its value by being liberally used in the M9 artillery director designed at Bell Labs. This artillery director worked with the SCR584 radar system to achieve extraordinary hit rates (near 90%) that would not have been possible otherwise.[14]
  
 All the way through to:
  
*1972: Single sided supply op-amps being produced.* A single sided supply op-amp is one where the input and output voltages can be as low as the negative power supply voltage instead of needing to be at least two volts above it. The result is that it can operate in many applications with the negative supply pin on the op-amp being connected to the signal ground, thus eliminating the need for a separate negative power supply.
  
 The LM324 (released in 1972) was one such op-amp that came in a quad package (four separate op-amps in one package) and became an industry standard. In addition to packaging multiple op-amps in a single package, the 1970s also saw the birth of op-amps in hybrid packages. These op-amps were generally improved versions of existing monolithic op-amps. As the properties of monolithic op-amps improved, the more complex hybrid ICs were quickly relegated to systems that are required to have extremely long service lives or other specialty systems.
  
*Recent trends.* Recently supply voltages in analog circuits have decreased (as they have in digital logic) and low-voltage op-amps have been introduced reflecting this. Supplies of ±5 V and increasingly 3.3 V (sometimes as low as 1.8 V) are common. To maximize the signal range modern op-amps commonly have rail-to-rail output (the output signal can range from the lowest supply voltage to the highest) and sometimes rail-to-rail inputs.
  
 (source wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operational_amplifier#Historical_timeline).

  
  
 Over the years the Op-Amp has slowly become the default building block for Amplifiers, both discrete and integrated and for the last few decades Op-Amps have been the dominant choice when it comes to “general purpose” Audio amplifiers (and outside audio).

 They are manufactured in a huge variety at all price levels and with a massive array of different specifications and optimisations for specific jobs. Some are even sold as being optimal for audio.  
  
 Unfortunately, this ubiquity has also led to a lack of understanding of what happens inside these Op-Amp's. There are circuit structures that are common to almost all Op-Amps, there are inherent limitations that are too.

 These days we pick up the Datasheet for an Op-Amp and we read:
  
 “The XXX Op-Amp is a JFET-input, ultralow distortion, low-noise operational amplifier fully specified for audio applications. Features include 5.1nV/√Hz noise and low THD+N (0.00005%).”
  
 Surely it ticks all boxes?
  
 Come on, zero point how many zeros THD? 
  
 Noise in Nanovolts? 
  
 It even says “J-Fet” there and “J-Fets” are in fashion this year we hear. 
  
 It's even a special audio grade part. So let's just use that one, okay?

 Actually, at iFi WE DO USE THAT ONE.
  
 But not because of these numbers. Or the J-Fets. Or the “Soundplus” moniker.
  
 Sorry to disappoint but our reason is more prosaic. Correctly implemented it sounds as good as anything we have tried and much better than most.

 There are some other numbers for that chip that are not headlined. They have more to do with what happens in the real world.
  
 For example, the bandwidth is only 11MHz at no gain and gets substantially less wide as gain is increased. And while the distortion is low at 1kHz and under ideal conditions, there are many things that make it worse, not the least raising the frequency so at 20kHz we have wipe off one zero of that very low distortion figure and at several MHz three to four of the zeros.

 It also is not so great with low impedance loads, without adding buffers distortion goes up, so strike another zero if we drive 600 ohm. Actually, the gain is very load dependent!
  
 Now it is not such a low distortion device anymore, is it?
  
 One thing we do not really want to do is to make this Op-Amp filter signals in the region of several MHz or have it driving headphones. We have to take that over by different means if we want to use this Op-Amp for it's undeniable qualities.

 If we understand the limitations and possible problems we can design our circuits accordingly and avoid the pitfalls of the limitations and take best advantage of the exceptional audio performance. 
  
 If we are simply members of the “Op-Amp of the month” club, we may get all sorts of results, maybe good, maybe bad, maybe indifferent.

 Having Op-Amps or not is not a reliable indicator of quality.
  
 Even the best Op-Amp's in the world can be implemented so ham-fisted that the result is poor, using Op-Amps that seem rather old and pedestrian correctly can give surprisingly good results in the real world.


----------



## EVOLVIST

ifi audio said:


> If we understand the limitations and possible problems we can design our circuits accordingly and avoid the pitfalls of the limitations and take best advantage of the exceptional audio performance.
> 
> If we are simply members of the “Op-Amp of the month” club, we may get all sorts of results, maybe good, maybe bad, maybe indifferent.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Understood and quite informative. So, in iFi's experience - and perhaps especially pertinent to the conversation since the release of the iDSD Pro and the iCAN Pro will roughly coincide with one another - running two Op-Amp components, inline, let's say a DAC and an HP Amp, does the compatibility of both device depend on how well the internals are implemented, individually, that dictates how synergistic the two components are?
  
 That is to say, if I've had poor experience with running two device, one as a DAC/pre-amp, and one as an HP amp, could it be because the internal implementation of one device is skewed just enough that the audio comes out slightly "off," in turn? Or, is it the mix-and-match approach of trying gear from different manufacturers, and expecting them to synergize, that is the problem?


----------



## iFi audio

evolvist said:


> Understood and quite informative. So, in iFi's experience - and perhaps especially pertinent to the conversation since the release of the iDSD Pro and the iCAN Pro will roughly coincide with one another - running two Op-Amp components, inline, let's say a DAC and an HP Amp, does the compatibility of both device depend on how well the internals are implemented, individually, that dictates how synergistic the two components are?
> 
> That is to say, if I've had poor experience with running two device, one as a DAC/pre-amp, and one as an HP amp, could it be because the internal implementation of one device is skewed just enough that the audio comes out slightly "off," in turn? Or, is it the mix-and-match approach of trying gear from different manufacturers, and expecting them to synergize, that is the problem?


 
  
 Hi,
  
 For sure it depends mostly on implementation.
  
 Many designers when implementing Op-Amps  (or DAC Chips for that) never really look what is going on inside.
  
 They just take a "datasheet" circuit, cookiecutter style and then swap Op-Amps around (or not) until it more or less sounds like they want (which may or may not be what others want or like).
  
 Also, one thing that differs with AMR/iFi is that we have a team of lead designers - each with their own strengths and experience. If there is only one lead designer, that product tends to go down a certain path based upon the strengths/weaknesses of that one person.
  
 More in the next part...


----------



## Emerpus

Hi iFi,
  
 Not sure how to read this ... does this mean the iDSD Pro will have XLR Pre-Out or XLR Headphone out too? Or is the HP Out limited to 6.3mm?
  

OutputXLR True Balanced Audio (Output adjustable 4/10V @ 0dBFS [+14dBu/+22dBu])   Audio RCA (2V/5V @ 0dBFS)    6.3mm Headphone 4V/10V maximum output    Headphone Output Power 4,000mW/16R max.


----------



## earfonia

ifi audio said:


> To Filter or to not Filter: Part 3 ....
> 
> Having Op-Amps or not is not a reliable indicator of quality.
> 
> Even the best Op-Amp's in the world can be implemented so ham-fisted that the result is poor, using Op-Amps that seem rather old and pedestrian correctly can give surprisingly good results in the real world.


 
  
 +1
 Thanks for the good short article! Very true indeed!
 Waiting for part 4 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 When I did Op-Amp rolling on Sound Blaster X7 a while ago, I ended up leaving the stock op-amp, the old and inexpensive NE5532 variant, the NJM2114D in its place. I found that in SB X7 circuit, the NJM2114D sounds optimum, and to my ears better than some other more expensive op-amps I tried, that I have in inventory. It's all about the implementation.


----------



## JWahl

Sorry folks, I haven't followed the thread in a while.  I've updated the title to reflect the new nomenclature to avoid confusion.


----------



## EVOLVIST

Here's a valid question for the iDSD Pro, I believe:
  
 Will the HP input for the iDSD Pro be the same as the one just implemented in the Retro 50? Or is it not applicable since we're not talking tubes?


----------



## iFi audio

evolvist said:


> Here's a valid question for the iDSD Pro, I believe:
> 
> Will the HP input for the iDSD Pro be the same as the one just implemented in the Retro 50? Or is it not applicable since we're not talking tubes?


 
  
 Hi,
  
 You mean the HP outputs?
  
 The iDSD Pro has more or less the same output as the iDSD micro, but with Class A Biasing added,better power supplies and better components in criticalplaces,however it is a very minimalist Headphone Amplifier (and takes too much space as is).
  
 But Retro and Proline are really diametrically oposed. There is little sense to compare them. Like comparing an suv with a track car.
  
 The Retro is Retro. It has design goals and approaches that are radically different from other iFi Products.
  
 It is mostly Class A and Tubes handle the Amplification. We have addressed some shortcomings common to many Tube Amps, but the Retro is very much a traditional tube amp.
  
 Like traditional coffee, no decaf, but full strength extra roast, double portion and then topped up with ton's of Full Fat Cream and sweeted with a lot of sugar. No modern "skinny latte" there.
  
 In most ways, except the price and some small details the Retro is more an AMR Product than an iFi one. It just misses the final few bits for ultimate refinement.
  
 Had it been made with silver wound permalloy output transformers and silver coupling cap's (which at volume purchasing cost would cost more than the retail of the Retro is now) and with a Philips TDA1541 Multibit DAC added to the current Burr Brown one, it would be an AMR 77 Class Product for all it is worth.


----------



## EVOLVIST

ifi audio said:


> Hi,
> 
> You mean the HP outputs?


 
 Yeah, outputs. My bad. I'm trying to work and do geek stuff at the same time; and work just doesn't understand that audio is more important.
  
 (And audio doesn't understand that I need to work more to afford my audio)


----------



## earfonia

ifi audio said:


> The iDSD Pro has more or less the same output as the iDSD micro, but with Class A Biasing added,better power supplies and better components in criticalplaces,however it is a very minimalist Headphone Amplifier (and takes too much space as is).


 
  
 Hmmmm.... frankly speaking, I consider iDSD micro headphone output to be the weak point of ifi micro iDSD. Big power but lacking of refinement. It sounds dry and not pleasing for long period of listening. Simply put, the sound quality of the micro iDSD headphone output is not on par as the sound quality of the micro iDSD DAC section. And added to it, the severe volume imbalance below 9:30' am position.
  
 I really hope ifi will revamp the headphone output of the iDSD Pro headphone output, to be much better than iDSD micro. It doesn't mean it has to be highly complex and large size amp, but a different approach with better, 'more refine' sound quality. For example, Op-Amp + Buffer Jung multiloop, or other approach that I believe ifi knows better. Btw, I really like the approach for volume control of my Mytek Stereo192-DSD DAC. It gives both 100 steps precision analog volume control (separate, one for line output, one for headphone output) as well as digital volume control, for us to choose. The separate volume control for line output and headphone is really useful for studio, where we can adjust independently the volume for speaker and headphone. That's really a feature for the Pros.


----------



## ClieOS

As long as iDSD Pro has an headphone amp section near that of iCAN micro, I'll be happy. The better the merrier.
  
 From what I have read, the pot that is going into the iDSD Pro is going to be pretty high end (same can be said the the whole volume control scheme). So hopefully any imbalance issue should be minimum to none.


----------



## rickyleelee

earfonia said:


> Hmmmm.... frankly speaking, I consider iDSD micro headphone output to be the weak point of ifi micro iDSD. Big power but lacking of refinement. It sounds dry and not pleasing for long period of listening. Simply put, the sound quality of the micro iDSD headphone output is not on par as the sound quality of the micro iDSD DAC section. And added to it, the severe volume imbalance below 9:30' am position.
> 
> I really hope ifi will revamp the headphone output of the iDSD Pro headphone output, to be much better than iDSD micro. It doesn't mean it has to be highly complex and large size amp, but a different approach with better, 'more refine' sound quality. For example, Op-Amp + Buffer Jung multiloop, or other approach that I believe ifi knows better. Btw, I really like the approach for volume control of my Mytek Stereo192-DSD DAC. It gives both 100 steps precision analog volume control (separate, one for line output, one for headphone output) as well as digital volume control, for us to choose. The separate volume control for line output and headphone is really useful for studio, where we can adjust independently the volume for speaker and headphone. That's really a feature for the Pros.




I followed the crowd desgn thread from early on and if you read it too, you would say the 3.5mm is there for convenience, it is firstly a dac/headmp for desktop and portable use. In some ways I think iFi tried too hard to make the micro iDSD so feature-rich that people don't take into account this thing retails for 499 big ones. I too would be disappointed if the micro dsd headphone section was rolled into the dsd pro. The mytek at 1.5k is a direct competitor to the dsd pro. But if you are using at 9.30, something is wrong in your config and no wonder the sonics is not on song.


----------



## earfonia

rickyleelee said:


> I followed the crowd desgn thread from early on and if you read it too, you would say the 3.5mm is there for convenience, it is firstly a dac/headmp for desktop and portable use. In some ways I think iFi tried too hard to make the micro iDSD so feature-rich that people don't take into account this thing retails for 499 big ones. I too would be disappointed if the micro dsd headphone section was rolled into the dsd pro. The mytek at 1.5k is a direct competitor to the dsd pro. But if you are using at 9.30, something is wrong in your config and no wonder the sonics is not on song.


 
  
 Well, I really wonder, if the headphone output (1/4" output, not 3.5mm) is just for convenience, what's the reason to make it so powerful that reach 4000 mW of maximum power?  Or for iDSD Pro case, 3000 mW?  In my understanding, if it is just for convenience, a few hundreds mW would be sufficient for most headphones.  I'm not asking for high end headphone amp to be included in iDSD Pro (which is actually make sense for the price). I just need something that sounds more refine, to make it a practical one box solution. I rather have 200 mW really good sounding headphone amp, than dry sounding 4000 mW headphone amp.  And leave the high power to be served by the iCAN.


----------



## earfonia

clieos said:


> As long as iDSD Pro has an headphone amp section near that of iCAN micro, I'll be happy. The better the merrier.


 
  
 +1 
 I agree.


----------



## rickyleelee

earfonia said:


> +1
> I agree.




I have both and would say the micro iCAN is noticeably better but it is mains powered and lives inside the same footprint (And I can't take it out with me) It is like have a pro SLR and then saying the auto function is ok and is the weak link. I would think that is quite normal. First and foremost run it as a dac headamp or dac direct. The headamp is not that bad but again with running it at 9 o'clock and or just using the headamp isnt really the optimal system deployment. I see so many people buying pro dslrs with expensive lense and then using in auto mode most of the time and saying they get average photos. But ymmv.


----------



## iFi audio

To Filter or Not Filter (Part 4) 
  
*Go Discrete* Often the use of discrete circuits is touted as the ultimate expression of the audio design craft. Certainly, going discrete does free us from the shackles of the Op-Amp data-sheet and from the limitations of the manufacturers catalogs, which despite offering 100's of parts usually seem to lack the one with the precise combination of spec's we want. Whatever we want, we design it in.

 BUT often discrete designs are not as good as the best modern Op-Amps. With discrete circuitry we can never be as complex modern integrated circuits and this complexity can be used to improve performance.
  
 If we try to imitate integrated circuit Op-Amps in discrete form – we are often ending up with something performing worse, bigger and more expensive than a good and inexpensive Op-Amp chip used right.

 Additionally, we can always add discrete parts to extend a good Op-Amp chip that lacks some specific feature we want. Be it an ultra-low noise input stage or a big class A output stage, we can often add these to an otherwise suitable chip and in the process make a hybrid that keeps all the good stuff of the integrated Op-Amp and adds our own desired features with much less complexity and of course cost than a fully discrete design.
  
 At iFi you can find an example of this in the iPhono and its added super low noise MC stage and the added Class A Buffer, that deliver a performance that no single Op-Amp chip could and that would be, if at all possible in purely discrete circuitry, neither small nor particularly affordable.
  
*The iPHONO*

  
 (Incidentally, one of the few "objective audio tests" when auditioning a phono stage is to 1) play music as loud as you normally listen at. 2) Then lift the needle. 3) Then listen for the "noise" from the phono section. A good phono stage amplifies only the signal so you should not hear "it" from the normal listening position. A normal phono stage amplifiers the signal AND the noise).
  
 So, realistically, there is just one reason to go fully discrete. To get something that does away completely with the fundamental Op-Amp circuit structure and instead does things radically different, something that allows us to step outside the triangle with its + & - sign and it's fundamental set of unavoidable design compromises.

 And this is precisely what we are doing for the Pro line. But, just because it is discrete and not Op-Amp it is not automatically good either.
  
 We do truly think what we are putting in is something rather different in a good way though.


----------



## earfonia

rickyleelee said:


> I have both and would say the micro iCAN is noticeably better but it is mains powered and lives inside the same footprint (And I can't take it out with me) It is like have a pro SLR and then saying the auto function is ok and is the weak link. I would think that is quite normal. First and foremost run it as a dac headamp or dac direct. The headamp is not that bad but again with running it at 9 o'clock and or just using the headamp isnt really the optimal system deployment. I see so many people buying pro dslrs with expensive lense and then using in auto mode most of the time and saying they get average photos. But ymmv.


 
  
 I mentioned volume imbalanced below 9:30 am, it doesn't mean that I'm using it below 9:30 am. I mentioned it as something to be improved by ifi. Some amps and DACs don't have problem around 9 am with their volume pot. Why you keep mentioning that and what make you think that I'm using my iDSD micro at below 9:30 am?
  
 I also have both micro iDSD and micro iCAN. I & @ClieOS wish that the quality of the Pro iDSD headphone output to be similar to micro iCAN, doesn't mean that the whole same footprint has to be put inside the Pro iDSD case, but to achieve similar quality. For example, I have Fiio E12DIY, much smaller than iCAN, now I use OPA827 + LME49600, and also battery powered, and the sound quality is much better than the iDSD micro headphone output. Remove the battery, and the whole circuit is small enough to be put inside the Pro iDSD.


----------



## rickyleelee

earfonia said:


> I mentioned volume imbalanced below 9:30 am, it doesn't mean that I'm using it below 9:30 am. I mentioned it as something to be improved by ifi. Some amps and DACs don't have problem around 9 am with their volume pot. Why you keep mentioning that and what make you think that I'm using my iDSD micro at below 9:30 am?
> 
> I also have both micro iDSD and micro iCAN. I & @ClieOS wish that the quality of the Pro iDSD headphone output to be similar to micro iCAN, doesn't mean that the whole same footprint has to be put inside the Pro iDSD case, but to achieve similar quality. For example, I have Fiio E12DIY, much smaller than iCAN, now I use OPA827 + LME49600, and also battery powered, and the sound quality is much better than the iDSD micro headphone output. Remove the battery, and the whole circuit is small enough to be put inside the Pro iDSD.


 
  
I get what you are saying. Guess it doesn't bother me but it bothers you even though you don't use in this position. And as clie said this is the nature of the potentiometer. I do like this in detail knowledge.


----------



## cronsell

This whole thread has me absolutely salivating for the final product...can't wait to learn more!


----------



## EVOLVIST

Let's talk about the Pro series some more now. This is the one keeping me thinking at night (even though money is tight right now because we are selling our house - but if it came out today I would buy one anyway).
  
 So, does iFi listen to other DACs when designing their own. You know, without naming names, but just to compare some of the cookie cutter DACs to their own.


----------



## iFi audio

evolvist said:


> Let's talk about the Pro series some more now. This is the one keeping me thinking at night (even though money is tight right now because we are selling our house - but if it came out today I would buy one anyway).
> 
> So, does iFi listen to other DACs when designing their own. You know, without naming names, but just to compare some of the cookie cutter DACs to their own.


 
  
 Hi,
  
 When will you complete your house move?
  
 We shall hold the launch of the iDSD Pro until after your house move...
  
 Talk about customer service! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
  
  
 Seriously, while we listen to other DACs, we like to dig deeper and listen extensively to the different DAC chipsets themselves. This is why we left the ESS Sabre and moved over to the Burr-Brown.
  
 We also really audition the parts, not just the DAC chipsets.
  
  
 Like for example for the AMR machines, we have the famed Kondo M-7 (early model) which is as close to "straight wire with gain" as one can get. We put capacitors in the signal path there and conducted auditions. After comparing it the very nice capacitors out there, this is how we arrived at the newest AMR Tri-Core capacitor.
  
 When we say we make our own capacitors, we _really_ mean it.
  
 This is the "little" puppy:
  

  
  
 And when people talk about the 6922, we've moved onto the GE5670. This dude is soooo good, it is being trickled-up from the iTUBE into the AMR machines.  We put the parts where our mouth is.
  

  
 Try and google the 6922 family and the 5670/2C51/WE396A/6N3 family and you will know why we don't mess with the 6922 anymore - good as it is, this "plain vanilla" model is nowhere near the premium "Bailey's Irish Cream gelato" version in the GE5670 family guise (yes, the WE396A is probably better but good luck with finding mint ones...)
  
  
WARNING: the GE5670 family is NOT a straight swap. Despite the same 9-pin configuration, the electrical pin outs are different. This is why this family of tubes never became popular and why we had to tool up and have a mould made specially for the GE5670 tube (as per the above picture).


----------



## bobsherman




----------



## tf1216

bobsherman said:


>




  
 iFi can do OctaDSD512 but they can't do THAT!


----------



## labjr

From what I've read, I thought AKM made the most transparent sounding DAC chip?


----------



## ClieOS

labjr said:


> From what I've read, I thought AKM made the most transparent sounding DAC chip?


 
  
 Just about every DAC maker has made that claim one time or another, I'll imagine. Have two AK4396 based DAC myself, though I never find them to be more transparent than other DAC.


----------



## labjr

I'm not talking about DAC manufacturer claims. But about those who I feel are competent designers who arent using the DAC of the month. Like Schiit or BJ Buchalter of Mertic Halo who will give you an honest opinion and not marketing hype.


----------



## jexby

labjr said:


> I'm not talking about DAC manufacturer claims. But about those who I feel are competent designers who arent using the DAC of the month. Like Schiit or BJ Buchalter of Mertic Halo who will give you an honest opinion and not marketing hype.




So Schiit and BJ aren't DAC manufacturers, just designers so their options are without "motive"?
And what about iFi / Amr and their marketing levels and using Burr Brown chips- Are those chips and opinions sufficiently transparent?

Buy some devices, listen to them, test them. Sell them if you don't enjoy product X.
But move to Product Y and repeat the process based on your ears- not the opinions of any manufacturer.


----------



## ClieOS

Actually I do have an AKM equipped Schiit DAC on my desk right now. Can't say it is the most transparent sounding DAC I ever heard, not that it isn't good either. Sometime it is better to listen to one in person to make the call, work for me in this case.


----------



## kugino

jexby said:


> So Schiit and BJ aren't DAC manufacturers, just designers so their options are without "motive"?
> And what about iFi / Amr and their marketing levels and using Burr Brown chips- Are those chips and opinions sufficiently transparent?
> 
> Buy some devices, listen to them, test them. Sell them if you don't enjoy product X.
> But move to Product Y and repeat the process based on your ears- not the opinions of any manufacturer.


 

 agreed...each designer and manufacturer will certainly have a story about why they chose their specific DAC chip...some are certainly more vociferous than others, but to think that all are without "motive" is a bit naive. i've actually been reading up on different DAC chips in the last couple of weeks as i am in the market for a mid-fi DAC...i have the iDSD micro and need to spend more time with it as a DAC to get a better sense of it, but i admit i am leaning toward finding an older R2R chip-based DAC like the PCM1704 or 1702 or PCM63.


----------



## iFi audio

clieos said:


> Just about every DAC maker has made that claim one time or another, I'll imagine. Have two AK4396 based DAC myself, though I never find them to be more transparent than other DAC.


 
  
 Hi,
  
 There is always someone claiming DAC Chip YYY from Brand XXX is the best, most transparent, most musical and whatever else. You can find the same thing for Op-Amp Chip du jour, capacitor du jour and pretty much any other part.
  
 Most of this is just something that you read. Like what you read in "The Sun", "The Daily Mail" or in any other tabloid in the world.
  
 Behind the scenes, few if any have/take the time and effort to forensically analyse each and every part and apply it and optimise it to the max. No we don't mean read the datasheet. We mean drill down to the silicon die-level.
  
 From our experience, we can cite the AMR CD-77. This has the infamous TDA1541A.
  
 Outside

  
  
 Inside

  
 During the golden era of multibit, many a player had the TDA1541A. Pretty much most were implemented stock. But to the very best of AMR's knowledge, instead of leaving to run on a separate clock only the CD-77 implementation of the TDA1541A synchronised the Dynamic Element Matching (DEM) circuit with the Sample Clock. The issue with a separate, non-synchronised clock is that it can create "beat-notes" with the sample frequency which degraded both static (sinewave) and dynamic (music) performance.
  
*The AMR Digital Engine - which beats at the heart of the CD-77*

Further reading: http://amr-audio.co.uk/html/faq_cd.html#ref 
> How does the CD-77 implementation of the Philips TDA1541A chipset differ to other designs?
  
 Much of the selection grades (Crowns) was from our point of view, likely down to this problem and the ration between the on-chip clock for DEM and the Audio Clock. Synchronise the Audio and DEM clock and run DEM at the right speed (too slow or too fast degrades sound quality) and all TDA1541A sound and measure like a Double-Crown chip.
  
Read: Optimisation above and beyond the best the slicon manufacturer intended and designed-in, by understainding the Chip at pretty much a single transistor level.
  
 For those who have not read this before, a little side reading here:
  
*T**echnical Notes (3)*  
*Cherry-Picking the Chipset: Going to the nth degree* http://www.head-fi.org/t/711217/idsd-micro-crowd-designed-v0-16-beta-firmware-calling-iclub-members-page-135/690#post_10617050
  
 The pictures below give you some idea of the length we go to (from the nano iDSD right through to the AMR CD-77).
  
*1. Audiophile Level *(where most audio customers discuss...no offence meant so hope none taken)

  
  
  
*2. Datasheet Implementation Level*

  
  
  
*3. Advanced Level*

  
  
*4. AMR/iFi Level*

  
 So you see, one should implement everything as well as one possibly can, starting from maxxing the chipset out and choosing the parts and the rest of the components as well as you find them. Design the circuit board well so ground, impedance issues are all well addressed etc etc. ONLY then can you truly hear what this chipset or that chipset is _truly_ capable of.
  
 But to just choose a chipset listening to it stock is not the way we roll.
  
 To us, it is a bit like cramming for exams versus studying throughout the year. You know who we are.
  
 In many ways what we do with the TDA1541 is similar to what we do with the DSD1793. We make it do things the chip manufacturer never imagined and intended and get results that seem "impossible"...a bit like Scotty in the engine room of the USS Enterprise.
  

  
 It is all very nice hearing about how we do things a little differently but in the final analysis, what you hear is how "REAL" AMR/iFi components sound, not how the bass or the treble is this or that or how it measures this well or that well. We still cover these aspects well but we hope you understand and trust that we always try go a little further.
  
 It is how much the music pulls on our heartstrings, so to speak. This what we look for at AMR/iFi.


----------



## iFi audio

kugino said:


> agreed...each designer and manufacturer will certainly have a story about why they chose their specific DAC chip...some are certainly more vociferous than others, but to think that all are without "motive" is a bit naive. i've actually been reading up on different DAC chips in the last couple of weeks as i am in the market for a mid-fi DAC...i have the iDSD micro and need to spend more time with it as a DAC to get a better sense of it, but i admit i am leaning toward finding an older R2R chip-based DAC like the PCM1704 or 1702 or PCM63.


 
  
 We agree.
  
 What we are doing is trying to find modern Chips that give us as much as possible of the unique qualities of the older PCM DACs for PCM replay, while also getting the best out of DSD. Is what we use as good as the PCM63? It's darn close if we can say that.
  
 Actually, on purely technical measures what we use is better. On sound quality it seems to have retained much of what made the PCM63 one of the 3 Kings of Digital (the other two being - AD1862 and AD1865 - the TDA1541A Double Crown remains Emperor).
  
 For those who are interested:


----------



## iFi audio

Talking of parts, some further pictures and information here that is tied into the Pro and the iDAC2.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/754820/idac2-is-a-coming-internal-discussions#post_11407120


----------



## technobear

ifi audio said:


> In many ways what we do with the TDA1541 is similar to what we do with the PCM1793. We make it do things the chip manufacturer never imagined and intended and get results that seem "impossible"...a bit like Scotty in the engine room of the USS Enterprise.




Which AMR/iFi piece has the PCM1793?


----------



## iFi audio

technobear said:


> Which AMR/iFi piece has the PCM1793?


 
  
 Hi,
  
 DSD1793. You caught us! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 We have gone back and corrected.
  
 Didn't get the double Expresso with Amaretto today.


----------



## technobear

ifi audio said:


> technobear said:
> 
> 
> > Which AMR/iFi piece has the PCM1793?
> ...




Expresso?

Is that like Espresso, only faster


----------



## iFi audio

technobear said:


> Expresso?
> 
> Is that like Espresso, only faster


 
  
 Okay. Okay. We hold our hands-up.
  
 We havent had as many Shredded Wheat as you today.


----------



## EVOLVIST

ifi audio said:


> Hi,
> 
> When will you complete your house move?
> 
> ...


 
  
 Great customer service, indeed! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 However, don't let me hold you guys back. The place goes up for sale on March 20th, and then we'll hopefully sell and move by August. The Pro can come out anytime in that timeframe, if you please. It will be grand to have a listen inside my new home...and my new study.
  
 On the subjects of tubes, though; yes, I like the tube in the iTube. Now, I'm much more of a solid state guy, but I would hate not having tubes if I went to listen to the Beatles "Please, Please Me" album, or let's say "Pet Sounds."
  
 You know what's really lacking from tube buffers, though? A passthrough feature! I would buy the iTube Pro in a heartbeat if I could keep it inline with my iDSD Pro and not have to use the tubes if I didn't want to. But then when I want tubes, I just flip the switch, let them warm, and without connecting or reconnecting any hardware, I have tubes when I want or no tubes when I don't. * shrug *


----------



## Esprit

ifi audio said:


> DSD1793. You caught us!


 
 No DSD1794A?


----------



## Franatic

It is interesting. The better I make my idsd micro sound, the more I crave the idsd pro. My system has been optimized and it's waiting. Now I gotta save some money. My guess is $1799.
  
 Will the AC power cord have a receptacle so that it is upgradeable? Please don't hardwire it into the unit. I upgrade the power cord on all my audio devices when I can.


----------



## bobsherman

franatic said:


> It is interesting. The better I make my idsd micro sound, the more I crave the idsd pro. My system has been optimized and it's waiting. Now I gotta save some money. My guess is $1799.
> 
> Will the AC power cord have a receptacle so that it is upgradeable? Please don't hardwire it into the unit. I upgrade the power cord on all my audio devices when I can.


 

 Hi,
  
 I thought is was suppose to be about a grand. I think it also had an external power supply. :
  
 regards
 Bob


----------



## Franatic

Did I say $1799...I meant $799  Is there a picture of the most recent prototype?


----------



## bobsherman

franatic said:


> Did I say $1799...I meant $799  Is there a picture of the most recent prototype?


 

 Not that I know of.


----------



## kugino

mm, i think $1799 is a better estimate.


----------



## EVOLVIST

$1500 USD. I mean, it has to come in around there because its competition is the Mytek, the OPPO HA-1, and the W4S, among others.

I love drooling over the specs...and that's even the old specs!


----------



## bobsherman

evolvist said:


> $1500 USD. I mean, it has to come in around there because its competition is the Mytek, the OPPO HA-1, and the W4S, among others.
> 
> I love drooling over the specs...and that's even the old specs!


 

 Think you are in the wrong ballpark. If they mentioned the Mini
 would be less that $1000 why would a name change dictate a 50% higher price?


----------



## kugino

bobsherman said:


> Think you are in the wrong ballpark. If they mentioned the Mini
> would be less that $1000 why would a name change dictate a 50% higher price?


 
post #161 and post #215


----------



## bobsherman

kugino said:


> post #215


 

 Did not see that.  Sounds  a bit high IMO in the current market.


----------



## EVOLVIST

kugino said:


> post #215




Thank you. Yes, that's what I remember coming from iFi. Of course that was December and things might change. I understand a great deal of tthe design changed since then, too.

I guess only iFi can verify if they're still on target with the price.

 @Franatic also on the same page they mention the power supply.


----------



## kugino

while i think we'd all prefer cheaper over pricier, $1500 is commensurate with most of the devices it's competing with. the oppo ha-1, benchmark dac-1, fostex hpa-8, etc. some of these can be had for less with current discounts, but i'm thinking this is the market that the pro will be in. of course, "value" is subjective and we'll see how ifi fares against these and other comparable devices...


----------



## Franatic

I'm looking at the measurements on the external power supply....very impressive. I have no concerns there with that level of performance.
  
 My impression is they have shifted their aim a little higher since last year. Perhaps ifi can let us know if that December estimate is still valid.


----------



## EVOLVIST

You know, I think a great deal of the success of the Pro - indeed of the price, as well - has a lot to do with how the Pro line is marketed. 

On the surface, saying something like that, people would be like, "Yeah, that's a no brainer. It's all in the reputation and marketing."

I think it might go a little deeper than that, though. How do you appeal to a group of hobbiests, who are already a niche market, letting them know that yes, this unit is a midway point between the AMR line, with the price, but it is also nearly on par with AMR because we now gone the pro audio way?

Pro audio, you say? Why bother? Is "pro audio" even a catch phrase amongst most of us hobbiests? 

Someone like myself, who has a deep past in pro audio, the Pro series strikes a deep chord, because I'm not going to spend 25k or go for an Antelope Zodiac. So, how to convince the masses that they need this, too?

Reputation will do for me. I'm in. Because, let's face it, some of the "pro audio" DACs that are out there, are either way pricier, or they are only a DAC 2nd, knobs and switches that a will never be used by a hobbiest, 1st.

I'm blatthering, but I think you catch my drift. I want to see success out of this line.


----------



## EVOLVIST

http://www.head-fi.org/t/748683/what-about-pro-audio-a-dacs-for-head-fi/15

Indeed I found this thread in here, after I wrote my thoughts last night.

Regarding "pro audio" gear on the DAC market:


----------



## iFi audio

iDAC Parts quality Part 2.  
http://www.head-fi.org/t/754820/idac2-is-a-coming-internal-discussions#post_11418704
  
 This is related to the Pro-series as it shows what the iFi machines share in parts quality/execution. But the iDSD Pro will take a slightly different tack.
  
 Cheers.


----------



## Mach3

So in term of performance, NANO < iDAC2 < MICRO < PRO. Where does the Retro Stereo 50 fit in?


----------



## iFi audio

mach3 said:


> So in term of performance, NANO < iDAC2 < MICRO < PRO. Where does the Retro Stereo 50 fit in?


 
  
 Hi,
  
 1. Correct. These are the "standalone" DACs.
  
 2. Outside of this grouping because the Retro Stereo 50 is a complete all-encompassing setup with DAC, valve/headphone amplifier with phone stage.
  
 Cheers


----------



## rickyleelee

ifi audio said:


> Hi,
> 
> 1. Correct. These are the "standalone" DACs.
> 
> ...





The retro is an all in one. So you stop scratching for different boxes and be done. The others are still for hardcore dedicated people that like to scratch their itch. will pick up my new retro soon and will update you on the other side!


----------



## rickyleelee

rickyleelee said:


> The retro is an all in one. So you stop scratching for different boxes and be done. The others are still for hardcore dedicated people that like to scratch their itch. will pick up my new retro soon and will update you on the other side!





I finally got my retro home and took some pics by my iPhone for sharing. Surprisingly, both my wife and daughter are very interested in it and I don't have time to enjoy my music with it since it's unpacked! I will post more pics using my Nikon camera as soon as I gave it back from those ladies


----------



## Mach3

Wow that's an impressive iFi stack rickyleelee


----------



## EVOLVIST

Capital! Very impressed! I want a Retro 50 so bad, but I know I have to hold out for the iDSD Pro, as it will fit my needs better. But I'm happy for you.

Hey iFi, my home is up for sale now. You guys better be ready to serve the soup!


----------



## Monte Verdi

Hello, I realize that your marketing has focused on the headphone community quite extensively and while appreciating this decision I would implore you to give a little time and focus to those of us that love your products and use them as a stand alone DAC sending into our moderate high end systems. 
I for one would love to see an ifi without the headphone jack and the space given to power supply/gain switch/purifier/more chips etc for starters. Basically a unit that smoke's the Mytek and Resonessence DAC's and hopefully priced around $800-900. Thank you for your consideration, Monte Verdi Santa Fe Audio Society.


----------



## iFi audio

evolvist said:


> Capital! Very impressed! I want a Retro 50 so bad, but I know I have to hold out for the iDSD Pro, as it will fit my needs better. But I'm happy for you.
> 
> Hey iFi, my home is up for sale now. You guys better be ready to serve the soup!


 
  
 Okay, okay! 
  
 As Glenn Frey once said, "the heat is on".


----------



## iFi audio

monte verdi said:


> Hello, I realize that your marketing has focused on the headphone community quite extensively and while appreciating this decision I would implore you to give a little time and focus to those of us that love your products and use them as a stand alone DAC sending into our moderate high end systems.
> I for one would love to see an ifi without the headphone jack and the space given to power supply/gain switch/purifier/more chips etc for starters. Basically a unit that smoke's the Mytek and Resonessence DAC's and hopefully priced around $800-900. Thank you for your consideration, Monte Verdi Santa Fe Audio Society.


 
  
 Hi,
  
 Thank you for these kind comments but it will not be priced at $800-900. Without taxes, the iDSD Pro is expected to be at the ~$1,500 level.
  
 When we can give out the juiciest bits we shall.
  
 But it will be a dedicated hard core DAC (with Quad Burr-Browns) with a very respectable headphone stage. The fact that there will be an iCAN Pro already hints that first and foremost, the iDSD needs to and will deliver the sonic goods as a professional class dac.
  
 If you look at the iDAC2 thread, you can see that that runs Class A, is Directly-Coupled and uses some pretty nice parts like Elna Silmic IIs, C0G capacitors and MELF resistors. You may/may not have auditioned the nano and micro iDSDs but from all these, you can rest assured that we don't neglect the core sonic heart of our dacs at the cost of a good headphone stage.
  
 Thanks.


----------



## shabta

ifi audio said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thank you for these kind comments but it will not be priced at $800-900. Without taxes, the iDSD Pro is expected to be at the ~$1,500 level.
> 
> ...


 
 I think what he was getting at is that he was wondering if you could make a version of the pro without a headphone amp for less money. Many of us have really nice amps and like things to be modular anyway. Is that a possibility?


----------



## bobsherman

ifi audio said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thank you for these kind comments but it will not be priced at $800-900. Without taxes, the iDSD Pro is expected to be at the ~$1,500 level.
> 
> ...


 

 Just curious, who is this posting for IFI?
  
 regards
 Bob


----------



## Franatic

shabta said:


> I think what he was getting at is that he was wondering if you could make a version of the pro without a headphone amp for less money. Many of us have really nice amps and like things to be modular anyway. Is that a possibility?


 
 +1
  
  I am sold on your ability to make an excellent dac section. I love the micro idsd dac section, don't use the amp. I have no plans to use the headphone section in the pro either. I have a Woo WA2 for that. It would be great if ifi offered the idsd pro without the headphone section for less than the ~1500.....or gave us some other increased functionality instead for the same price.


----------



## tf1216

bobsherman said:


> Just curious, who is this posting for IFI?
> 
> regards
> Bob


 
  
 They call him/her "The (audio) Stig".  Damn UK folks love their mystery!


----------



## Monte Verdi

Indeed I do have the nano idsd and it is extraordinary for its price point. I purchased 4 weeks ago to test the waters and I am so pleased with the house sound that I plan on moving up the chain very soon, I will keep my eyes open for the iDSD Pro! BTW, my audio club is having a DAC shootout with 7 DACs next weekend with the nano idsd in the mix, I will likely post results on Computeraudiophile shortly thereafter. Good luck, God bless Thorsten Loesch and keep up the great work you guy's are doing!
Monte Verdi


----------



## Monte Verdi

franatic said:


> +1
> 
> I am sold on your ability to make an excellent dac section. I love the micro idsd dac section, don't use the amp. I have no plans to use the headphone section in the pro either. I have a Woo WA2 for that. It would be great if ifi offered the idsd pro without the headphone section for less than the ~1500.....or gave us some other increased functionality instead for the same price.



Exactly this was the point I was trying to make!


----------



## tf1216

monte verdi said:


> Indeed I do have the nano idsd and it is extraordinary for its price point. I purchased 4 weeks ago to test the waters and I am so pleased with the house sound that I plan on moving up the chain very soon, I will keep my eyes open for the iDSD Pro! BTW, my audio club is having a DAC shootout with 7 DACs next weekend with the nano idsd in the mix, I will likely post results on Computeraudiophile shortly thereafter. Good luck, God bless Thorsten Loesch and keep up the great work you guy's are doing!
> Monte Verdi


 
  
 What are the other DACs?


----------



## Monte Verdi

tf1216 said:


> What are the other DACs?




Teac UD 301, Resonessence Invicta, Antelope not sure which model, I think Zodiac, Sony ZX2, Benchmark original DAC 1, ifi iDSD nano, and a diy unit! Oh, and Mojo Mystique NOS AD 1865-k DAC!


----------



## EVOLVIST

Guys, it makes very little practical sense for iFi to create this thing without a headphone section. For that matter, it makes even less business sense. It's not that iFi are followers (indeed, that's why I'm endeared to them, because they're not just making cookie cutter gear), but when nearly all of your competition has a headphone section, plus the majority of new buyers are looking of an all-in-one solution, you're a.) going to cater to new users, b.) create the best DAC section, anyway, because, in essence your DAC is not dependent upon the HP section and/or c.) try and steal some market share from your competitors.
  
 There's also d.) iFi feels that the integrated HP section for the iDSD Pro will blow away most integrated units, yet they are keenly aware that even the best integrated unit isn't up to snuff with a dedicated headphone amp...thus the iCAN Pro.
  
 So, can I justify $1500 for a DAC section, alone? Well, for those standalone DACs which are out there, many of them will run you the same or higher. There are a few that will run you even lower. Still, standalones are a small sub-sect these days.
  
 Do we need to have more standalone DACs to choose from? Yes! That's why I understand what the beef is. But quad Burr-Browns, balanced I/O, "discrete" analog (I still don't quite understand where iFi is coming from here), I don't blame iFi for making the prospect irresistible, even at the expense of probably $500+ more than I should spend.
  
 I don't have wads of cash just floating around, but I certainly can't help to wonder what iFi's entry into pro audio will be like, because that's my background. I'll pay the convenience fee.


----------



## shabta

evolvist said:


> Guys, it makes very little practical sense for iFi to create this thing without a headphone section. For that matter, it makes even less business sense. It's not that iFi are followers (indeed, that's why I'm endeared to them, because they're not just making cookie cutter gear), but when nearly all of your competition has a headphone section, plus the majority of new buyers are looking of an all-in-one solution, you're a.) going to cater to new users, b.) create the best DAC section, anyway, because, in essence your DAC is not dependent upon the HP section and/or c.) try and steal some market share from your competitors.
> 
> There's also d.) iFi feels that the integrated HP section for the iDSD Pro will blow away most integrated units, yet they are keenly aware that even the best integrated unit isn't up to snuff with a dedicated headphone amp...thus the iCAN Pro.
> 
> ...


 
  
 No one is saying they shouldn't make a all-in-one unit. It's kinds silly to ask them not to, since they already announced it. What we are asking is if they would consider making a version without a headphone amp for a lower price. An awful lot of people are making stand a lone head amps/speaker amps and are doing quite well, it is just common sense that there is a market for stand alone DACs.


----------



## EVOLVIST

shabta said:


> No one is saying they shouldn't make a all-in-one unit. It's kinds silly to ask them not to, since they already announced it. What we are asking is if they would consider making a version without a headphone amp for a lower price. An awful lot of people are making stand a lone head amps/speaker amps and are doing quite well, it is just common sense that there is a market for stand alone DACs.




You're right. I'm sure there are more standalone amps than there are standalone DACs (at least from what I've seen), which implies there should be an equal number standalone DACs. Since that's not the case, though, you are asking iFi of the possibility of having a standalone DAC that is equal or better than the iDSD micro. I understand. I, too, don't want an integrated HP amp if I can keep from it.

In this case it's the iDSD Pro, and I'm not waiting for any future model, unless they were to announce a standalone DAC to spec with the Pro model, today. I mean, for a standalone, there is the iDAC2 next month.

You know what, the more I think about it, the more I think you guys are right. It's not going to sway me from the iDSD Pro, but entering the true "pro audio" market, what pro DAC has a HP amp? I can't think of one off of the top of my head. Maybe that's iFi's selling point: pro audio with an HP amp. Or, maybe we define 'pro audio" differently.

Hmmm...it's a bit of a quandary now. Maybe some of you guys will have to wait for the iDAC4 or something.


----------



## Maelob

Benchmark and Grace Design are definitely pro audio  DACs with great HP amps


----------



## EVOLVIST

maelob said:


> Benchmark and Grace Design are definitely pro audio  DACs with great HP amps




Well, let's define "pro audio" (subjectively, of course).

Traditionally, pro audio DACs have been the veritable definition of analytic sound. Some even say "cold.' After all, what comes in, in the pro audio world, must come out.

Having previously owned a Benchmark DAC1, I can attest to the microscopic view into the album I was listening to. Paired with my HD800s, I could hear the bass player's stomach grumble at 30ft from the mic. That's good and all. That's what the DAC is supposed to do. There wasn't any soul to it, however. It was void of much musical enjoyment because I was trying to listen to a tree, when the whole forest was calling.

Now take the iDSD micro and it gave freedom of choice back to me. It was no less microscopic, yet some way, somehow, it imparted a wholly analog - near vinyl ambiance to the same music.

This isn't hyperbole. It's me trying to rectify iFi's jaunt into the pro audio realm, while understanding what they mean by the term.

If it's to reproduce an exact replica of what's in the recording, I can't recify that with what I've come to know the iDSD micro as, i.e. a device that turns digital audio into vinyl while not losing the original artist's intent, mixes, tone, mastering, etc.

I think - but I could be wrong - that iFi's intent is to take some tried and true pro audio concepts to build a device that rises above the common DAC fare, to elevate their preexisting sound to another level: one that takes archetypal pro audio disciplines of quality into a consumer friendly package, while staying true to their original vision...and then some.

That said, I just can't see the iDSD micro moving too much into the cradle of hyper-realstic sound reproduction fit for mastering. The engineer would not gather a clear picture of the sound. Instead, it would be filtered through the optic of how the music is supposed to sound on the other end, and not the even keel known to studio professionals.

In that arena I can then see how iFi attaches the moniker of "pro," to this line, without misappropriating the word. But to glue it to the Benchmark or Antelope sound, I wouldn't want it.

Instead, I have the feeling that this is what the pro wants the music to sound like once they take it out of the console and put it in their ear holes.


----------



## earfonia

evolvist said:


> Well, let's define "pro audio" (subjectively, of course).


 
  
 When discussing about "Pro Audio", beside the sound quality, I learnt a lot from my Mytek Stereo192-DSD DAC, what features are important for a "Pro Audio" DAC. While I'm not really a huge fan of the sound signature of the Mytek (I like my ifi iDSD micro sound signature better), but sound quality aside, the "Pro" features in Mytek are really useful, and those really set it apart from the consumer DAC category. I believe "Pro" label is meaningless without real "Pro" features.
  
For example, the volume control is really flexible. 2 types of volume control, digital and analog, up to us to choose. When perfect balanced between left and right channel is a must, we may use the digital volume for higher accuracy. Both digital and analog volume control has precision 100 steps @ 1 dB per step. So we know exactly how many dB of the volume adjustment, very useful for sound engineer. The analog volume control is stepped programmable analog attenuator, 100 steps. Not only that, there are 2 separated volume control for line output and headphone output, that means 2 sets of precision stepped programmable analog attenuator. So we can adjust the volume of speaker and headphone independently. There is also a pair of analog input to make use of the sophisticated analog volume control for analog pre-amp function.
  
 The 2 custom function buttons are really useful. We can assign those 2 buttons to whatever function we often need quick access. Like mute, input selector, filter selection, etc. The line output has 6 dB trim, can be used when the output is to high. Also a must "Pro" feature which is the 'World Clock' input and output for clock synchronization with the rest of the equipment in the studio.
  
 Another nice feature is the additional USB 1.1 input port. When we bring it to other studio, or on the go, and we don't want to bother with driver installation, just plug any PC to the USB 1.1 port, it is plug and play without any driver installation (max 24bit - 96kHz). Useful for a quick test.
  
 I'm not promoting Mytek here. No intention for it. Just showing what's the different features of "Pro Audio" DAC as compared to non "Pro" DAC. Sound quality wise, Non Pro DAC may sound better than the Pro DAC. There many big budget Non Pro DAC that sounds really good.
  
 I just hope all the "Pro" series of ifi, are designed with "Pro" audio applications in mind.


----------



## EVOLVIST

So...iFi,

Will the iDSD Pro come with the new iPower?

Say it's so!


----------



## ClieOS

evolvist said:


> So...iFi,
> 
> Will the iDSD Pro come with the new iPower?
> 
> Say it's so!


 
  
 iDSD Pro will be running on 15V/2A, which is higher than what the iPower can supply (max 12V/1.1A).
  
 I am more interested to know if it will be beneficial to iCAN or iTube though.
  
 p/s: Actually I think iDSD Pro could be 12V compatible.


----------



## EVOLVIST

clieos said:


> iDSD Pro will be running on 15V/2A, which is higher than what the iPower can supply (max 12V/1.1A).
> 
> I am more interested to know if it will be beneficial to iCAN or iTube though.
> 
> p/s: Actually I think iDSD Pro could be 12V compatible.


 
  
 12v or 15v it would seem that the same principle would apply, be it 5v, 9v or 20v. The iPower does 3 voltages. What's a few steps up to 15v?
  
http://ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/accessory-ipower/


----------



## ClieOS

evolvist said:


> 12v or 15v it would seem that the same principle would apply, be it 5v, 9v or 20v. The iPower does 3 voltages. What's a few steps up to 15v?
> 
> http://ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/accessory-ipower/


 
  
 iFi has been paying attention to power supply since the beginning so I don't really see any reason to worry about the Pro's line power supply for now, regardless if it is an iPower or not.


----------



## iFi audio

clieos said:


> iDSD Pro will be running on 15V/2A, which is higher than what the iPower can supply (max 12V/1.1A).
> 
> I am more interested to know if it will be beneficial to iCAN or iTube though.
> 
> p/s: Actually I think iDSD Pro could be 12V compatible.


 
  
 Hi,
  
 Can shed more light.
  
 The Pro series will have its own, high-powered version of the iPower, performance is about the league as the iPower, just more current!
  
 Yes, the whole Pro-line will be 12V compatible.
  
 And finally, yes the new iPower upgrades the performance of the iTube, iCan, iPhono et al.
  
 Actually ANY 5v/9v/12v powered device can benefit from the iPower - so long as the current supplied by the iPower is sufficient, then it is fine.
  
Output: 5V/2.1A; 9V/1.5A; 12V/1.1A
  
  
  
   
*Background: we shed some mesurements a few pages back* (page 15)

Attached here is a screen shot from our AP2 showing the noise of the new iFi mini power supply delivering 15V at 1.25A (18.75W output power).
 
This graph covers frequencies from 10Hz to 108kHz and voltages from 10 nanoVolt (0.00000001V) to 10 Volt.
 

  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/702376/lightbox/post/11130928/id/1258618
  
 This is the 15V Pro one, but the others are similar.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/702376/ifi-audio-pro-desktop-line-discussion-thread/210#post_11130928


----------



## oldson

is there a launch date for this yet?


----------



## Faber65

ifi audio said:


> Hi,
> 
> Can shed more light.
> 
> ...




I'm wondering whether it will be included as a standard psu in the newest versions of the iCan and iTube or it will be sold separately only.


----------



## iFi audio

faber65 said:


> I'm wondering whether it will be included as a standard psu in the newest versions of the iCan and iTube or it will be sold separately only.


 
  
 Hi,
  
 Yes - is already in all iFi-powered devices (with a higher price rise).
  
 And it will also be sold separately so iFi and non-iFi people can use the iPower.
  
 Once existing customers receive their iPower, then it will be sold separately.
  
 The 9v is already shipping. The 5v and 12v in ~4-6 weeks.
  
 Cheers.


----------



## iFi audio

oldson said:


> is there a launch date for this yet?


 
  
 Hi,
  
 Mid-May at the Munich High-End show is the final prototype/production version.
  
 It is expected to ship in the next few weeks after Munich.
  
 Thanks.


----------



## Franatic

ifi audio said:


> Hi,
> 
> Mid-May at the Munich High-End show is the final prototype/production version.
> 
> ...


 

 Great news!!........and the price will be~............?????


----------



## iFi audio

franatic said:


> Great news!!........and the price will be~............?????


 
  
 Hi,
  
 The whole iFi line is expected to be around the US$1500 ex-tax/Euro1,750 with tax.
  
 Different models, different prices but around this level.
  
 This is just provisional.
  
 Cheers.


----------



## sdolezalek

A while back you were playing around a bit with the originally disclosed specifications.  Have you now settled on a set of specs for the Munich release?  Would you be willing to share those?  You also speculated that you might repeat something like the Octa-Adopter program for the iDSD Micro, any further update on that?  
  
 By the way, a belated "Thank You" as I was one of the winners in your guess the number of components contest!


----------



## Dixter

subscribed


----------



## EVOLVIST

Hey iFi...my home was only on the market for 6 days, and then I got a contract, so basically my home has sold. I'm ready for my iDSD Pro now. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Just kidding.  It's nice to know that it's on track for the end of May as you guys expected. I'm sure closer to that time you guys will post all sorts of final specs?


----------



## iFi audio

evolvist said:


> Hey iFi...my home was only on the market for 6 days, and then I got a contract, so basically my home has sold. I'm ready for my iDSD Pro now.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi,

 You do not hang about.

 Pressure is on us to keep up.....we'll try to get you all something to tide you over the bank holiday long weekend.


----------



## Emerpus

Hi iFi Audio,
  
 While you guys are at it ... can share any plans or special deals for the Pro line launch for iClub members? 
  
 Cheers
 James


----------



## Faber65

Any chance to see the protos at the Siav show in Shanghai by the end of April?


----------



## iFi audio

First the bad news. There will be no leak of the iDSD Pro today. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 And now for the good news. We have the iCAN Pro instead. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
  
  
  
*Pro series - Beta Product Specifications* iCan _Pro_  

  
*Introduction*
 As you know, there is the nano, the micro and the mini series which has now be renamed the “Pro series” which is the flagship (or helicarrier?) of the iFi range.
  
 It is serious for not only the professional audio market, but home audio too.
  
 The Pro series – planned are the iDSD, iCAN and the iUSB Power and others.
  
 In terms of sonic results, the iCAN will be all out assault at the state of the art and drive _every_ headphone out there. Even electrotatic Headphones like Stax can be driven (but requires a special external energiser module - separate item).
  
 As is often the case, we got carried away and instead of making the iCAN+iTUBE, we combined the two. And just for kicks, we added a Pre-Amplifier.
  
 So the iCAN is now the iCAN + iTUBE + iPre all rolled into one.
  
 And then just to really things _really_ interesting, we have put in TWO amplfication sections for the customer to choose.
  
 Read on.
  
  
*The most salient features are:*

Selectable Tube or Solid State Input , fully discrete Class A design
Balanced Output options on 3-Pin & 4-Pin XLR plus 6.3mm Jack on front panel.
Unbalanced outputs on 6.3mm Jack (direct) and two 3.5mm Jacks with built-in fixed iEMatch attenuation on front panel to drive IEMs etc.
1 pair of XLR Inputs and three pairs of RCA Inputs.
1 pair XLR & RCA outputs on back
> 20V maximum output, > 600mW into 600 Ohm headphones, appx 16,000mW maximum into 16 Ohm and appx. 6,000 mW continuous output into 16Ohm.
Three levels of gain selectable from Front Panel.
Balanced ALPS Volume control with remote control.
3D Holographic® for Headphones and XBass® (each adjustable in 3-Levels + Off).
Class A operation for all stages up to 500mW/16 Ohm, pure Class A at all levels for Headphones > 120 Ohm.
Circuitry derived from professional tube-based studio equipment, implemented in a hybrid design mixing Tubes or J-Fet Inputs (selectable) with Bipolar Transistors and Mosfets.
Full Dual-Mono design including internal power supplies, supplied with 15V/4A Ultra Low Noise PSU (Generation 2 same as iPOWER).
Optional Electrostatic Headphone Energiser in separate Box will be introduced, 1,700V Peak-Peak maximum output, Bias selectable for Stax HiFi/Pro, Sennheiser and others, Output Levels selectable, 3 * Stax Pro & HiFi Sockets fitted.
  
*iCAN Pro - Features*

  
  
 *Balanced Headphone Amplifier*
  
 *PowerSource:*
 External DC 15V/4A
 *Inputs (Back):*
 1 x XLR True Balanced Stereo
  
 3 x RCA Stereo
 *Output Front):*
 4-Pin XLR Headphone Balanced
  
 Dual 3-Pin XLR Headphone Balanced
  
 6.3mm Headphone x2, single ended or balanced
  
 6.3mm to 3.5mm adapter included
  
 3.5mm iEMatch attenuated x 2 
 *Output (back):*
 1 X XLR True Balanced Stereo (preamp out)
  
 1 X RCA Stereo (preamp out)
  
 Multipin Link connector for Energiser module
 *Volume Control:*
 Motorised ALPS 6-Way potentiometer
  
  
 *Amplification:*
 2 * GE 5670 Tube or 4 * Ultra Low Noise J-Fet, selected via front panel switch
 *Analogue Processing:*
 X-Bass, +3dB at 80Hz, 160Hz, 320Hz  
  
 3D Sound. 30/45/60 Degrees virtual Speaker angle
 *Gain:*
 0dB, 12dB and 24dB user-selectable
 *Signal to Noise Ratio:*
 >117dB(A)
 *Total Harmonic Distortion (THD):*
 <0.003%
 *Frequency Response:*
 0.5Hz to 500KHz(-3dB)
 *Output Power (16R cont):*
 > 6,000mW
 *Output Voltage (600R):*
 >20V (Balanced); > 10V (single ended)
 *Size:*
 220mm x 62mm X 190mm (W X H X D including feet and connectors)

  
 And you want more? Well, here you go with pictures of the current beta.
  
 Front

  
  
 Top

  
  
 Rear

  
  
 We hope you found this interesting.


----------



## Emerpus

ifi audio said:


> Class A operation for all stages up to 500mW/16 Ohm, pure Class A at all levels for Headphones > 120 Ohm.


 
  
 Wow ... Thanks iFi audio. 
  
 BTW, do you mean "pure Class A at all levels for Headphones *<* 120 Ohm."? Can't be running Class A for all level on harder to drive HP while the easier ones fall out of Class A, right?
  
 ​Also ... will the tubes be roll-able?
  
 Let me know when this will be avail in Singapore ... I'm putting this down for pre-order!!


----------



## semeniub

Mmmmmm - looks tastier than a Lindt chocolate Easter bunny!


----------



## iFi audio

semeniub said:


> Mmmmmm - looks tastier than a Lindt chocolate Easter bunny!


 
  
 You must be psychic. Caught us on a tea break - munching Galaxys. This "hybrid" version. Very apt don't you think?


----------



## john57

emerpus said:


> Wow ... Thanks iFi audio.
> 
> BTW, do you mean "pure Class A at all levels for Headphones *<* 120 Ohm."? Can't be running Class A for all level on harder to drive HP while the easier ones fall out of Class A, right?
> 
> ...


 
 Headphone greater than 120 ohms needs more voltage and less current, generally. Tubes usually have higher voltages available to the output. So there is less current needed for headphones greater than 120 ohms and therefor easier to run in class A.


----------



## WNBC

Very cool!  Now I am really torn which to upgrade to first....iDSD Pro or iCan Pro.   Love the innovation.  One stop shop:  pre-amp, tube, SS...plus Stax electrostatic possibilities.  What, no coffee warmer?


----------



## Emerpus

john57 said:


> Headphone greater than 120 needs more voltage and less current, generally. Tubes usually have higher voltages available to the output. So there is less current needed for headphones greater than 120 ohms and therefor easier to run in class A.


 
  
 Hmmm ... ok, time to dig out my electronics 101 ... it's been over 20 years ... very rusty. Thanks @john57


----------



## Emerpus

wnbc said:


> What, no coffee warmer?


 
  
 Just leave your coffee above the Tubes ... twin GE 5670 warmer


----------



## rickyleelee

ifi audio said:


> First the bad news. There will be no leak of the iDSD Pro today.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  
to quote George Takei "oh my....." https://youtu.be/6nSKkwzwdW4


----------



## DougD

Oh da**it .... Dougie want !
  
 This wrecks the gear progression I thought I had worked out.
  
 (And I could probably use an upgrade to my 38-year-old Stax SRD-7 energizer too. How did they guess that?)
  
 Da**it !


----------



## iFi audio

Thank Native DSD Music it's Easter weekend. (ok, no iDSD Pro but...)  
*Head-Fi readers can download a variety of FREE DSD Tracks at NativeDSD.com.*  
  

  
 Our friends at Native DSD have also made a 20% discount on a Jazz compilation and a Classical compilation.
  

  
  
 The coupon code is _NativeDSD_ - valid through May 1st.
  
 Each album ends up costing about €6,50EUR / $7,00USD.
  
 NativeDSD downloads are available worldwide and currently has customers with accounts from 99 different countries.
  
 Happy Easter message from iFi and NativeDSD (and Floor at Native DSD also said to go easy on the Easter Eggs)


----------



## oldson

that is another fine looking bit of kit.
 this could be an expensive year!!!


----------



## oldson

sorry if this has been asked before.
 will the idsd pro have the xbass and 3d features of the micro idsd?


----------



## Esprit

There is something wrong: the price is increasing (from 1500€ to 1750€) but the case, the RCA connectors, the folded metal sheet seems to me "cheap" like a chinese set-top box...
  
 A Mytek, Yulong, Matrix or Schiit DAC, looks better.


----------



## john57

esprit said:


> There is something wrong: the price is increasing (from 1500€ to 1750€) but the case, the RCA connectors, the folded metal sheet seems to me "cheap" like a chinese set-top box...
> 
> A Mytek, Yulong, Matrix or Schiit DAC, looks better.


 
 You saw the prototype. The final version may have better case work. You may have to wait until the final production version is shown before passing final judgement on the case.


----------



## Esprit

A very well done chassis...
  

  
 [...]The first thing I noticed was the size and build quality of the unit which is quite small and it can fit in my palm, but *it is made of solid and thick aluminum*. [...](cit.)
 P.S. Only 499,00€


----------



## Esprit

john57 said:


> You saw the prototype. The final version may have better case work. You may have to wait until the final production version is shown before passing final judgement on the case.


 
 I'm judging what *others* show to me...


----------



## ClieOS

esprit said:


> A Mytek, Yulong, Matrix or Schiit DAC, looks better.


 
  
 If look is really that important, you already know what you should be buying then


----------



## rickyleelee

esprit said:


> A Mytek, Yulong, Matrix or Schiit DAC, looks better.


 
  
Casework is a matter of taste and I do wonder if the IDSd pro will also have the ge 5760 bulbs and switch between solid state. Schit is folded metal afaik and so is Mytek. So pretty the same to me.


----------



## technobear

ifi audio said:


> Rear




Are the RCA's and XLR contacts rhodium over gold?


----------



## earfonia

ifi audio said:


> First the bad news. There will be no leak of the iDSD Pro today.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Very nice symmetrical front layout!


----------



## EVOLVIST

rickyleelee said:


> [COLOR=373E4D]Casework is a matter of taste and I do wonder if the IDSd pro will also have the ge 5760 bulbs and switch between solid state. Schit is folded metal afaik and so is Mytek. So pretty the same to me.[/COLOR]




Switchable from tubes to solid state would be too good to be true for the iDSD Pro. I know the flagship DAC in the AMR line has tubes, but I'm pretty sure they are not switchable. I mean, it's not beyond reason, but it appears as if they combined two models for a reason with the iCAN Pro.


----------



## earfonia

ifi audio said:


> Thank Native DSD Music it's Easter weekend. (ok, no iDSD Pro but...)
> *Head-Fi readers can download a variety of FREE DSD Tracks at NativeDSD.com.*
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks a lot for this!
  
 Happy Easter!


----------



## iFi audio

*Beta firmware - Testing Solutions to Spotify/Tidal streaming on Android and DSD256 on MAC*
  
  
*Warning. 

 Please try this only if you are comfortable with upgrading the firmware on your nano iDSD/micro iDSD/Retro Stereo 50 Beta firmware allows one to:*
  
 
 
*1)* Version 4.8 Beta - Output audio for Android if you encounter lack of compatibility with Device X and Spotify/Tidal* etc., USB Host mode remains required. 
 

Devices tested so far Sony Xperia Z Ultra and Samsung Galaxy S4, allows system audio, including Games and Android Music Playback via iFi iDSD etc.
We have developed a Firmware workaround that enables this for several Android Phones in our possession, but need wider testing.
  
 
 
*2)* Version 4.8.4 - DSD256 via DoP for iDSD nano (and upcoming iDAC2 micro) is now supported, using a special beta firmware. This firmware is redundant on iDSD micro and Retro Stereo 50.
 

This is primarily for Mac, for Windows ASIO Native remains recommended.
Note that this Firmware unlocks 705k/768kHz sample rates on the iDSD nano and iDAC2 micro with hardware that mutes on 705/768k PCM. 
As Mac's default the audio to the highest rate this means there will be no audio until you lower the sample rate in the control panel to 384khz.
  
 

Note that on Windows either Firmware update requires the Version 2.23 iFi Driver, earlier versions are NOT supported.
  
  
 Please open a support ticket here to receive this firmware
  
http://support.ifi-audio.com/
  
 Or open a ticket and contact your iCLUB conciege
  
 Thanks


----------



## Franatic

Hi ifi,
  
 I am hoping we will soon get a peek at the unit with front and back panel shots. It would be great to know inputs, outputs and operating specs.
  
 Surely those things must be a done deal by now.......thanks


----------



## kurb1980

Thank you iFI for the Mac support although HQplayer supports the iDSD micro DoP up to DSD256.  I hope that the official firmware release will address the USB issues of it loosing is lock intermittently and have to unplug USB and reconnect to resolve the issue.  Miska the developer of HQplayer has had the same issue as well and I'm sure I'm not the only one who have issue with the USB?


----------



## iFi audio

kurb1980 said:


> Thank you iFI for the Mac support although HQplayer supports the iDSD micro DoP up to DSD256.  I hope that the official firmware release will address the USB issues of it loosing is lock intermittently and have to unplug USB and reconnect to resolve the issue.  Miska the developer of HQplayer has had the same issue as well and I'm sure I'm not the only one who have issue with the USB?


 
 
Please open a support ticket.
 
http://support.ifi-audio.com/
 
We have very few reports of this. We have not been able to replicate this problem on our test systems at this point in time.
 
So far all reports appear to come from users of one specific (and obscure) playback software on a specific OS. 
 
There is not enough data at this point in time to point fingers anywhere, be it hardware, firmware, OS or playback software, except to state that for most people on most OS and Playback software this problem does not seem to exist and that the firmware in our testing is extremely stable and resillient, including running non-stop for very extended periods of time. 
 
So if you do have this issue, please help us to help you and others with this problem to identify the source, by letting us have your setup details (precise revisions etc. of all relevant software), background as to under what circumstances this happens, how to provoke the problem explicitly (if possible), etc. to help us to get to the bottom of this. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 
Thanks!


----------



## Esprit

Make ASIO driver for Mac
  
_[…]Most Mac users will be completely satisfied with the performance and ease of use of the new exaSound Core Audio DoP256 driver. *For enthusiasts interested in pushing the technology even further, exaSound announces a new ASIO driver technology for OS X. We are working with leading player developers to enable ASIO support in their programs. Documentation and sample code is available to interested third parties.* […]_
http://www.exasound.com/Blog/tabid/74/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/139/DSD-256-Available-on-Mac-for-the-First-Time.a


----------



## Esprit

clieos said:


> If look is really that important, you already know what you should be buying then


 
 I already own the Mytek and the Yulong DACs and I like and am very interested in this iFi...
 No appearance or aesthetics but if the iFi must be a "pro" product and if it costs more than the other then it is also important that it will be solid, heavy and sturdy...
 The chassis is also very important as far as concern EMI/RFI problems while the connectors must be resistant as a product "pro" is not necessarily screwed to the table (you can use it in different situations and places).
 P.S. I do not care about aesthetics: I own only pro products including "ugly" pro monitors (but they sound good …)


----------



## sdolezalek

ifi audio said:


> So far all reports appear to come from users of one specific (and obscure) playback software on a specific OS.


 
 I assume that your reference to the "obscure" playback software is to HQ Player.  Obviously it is important that users of HQ Player do submit support tickets so that you can verify and hopefully address any issues.  I also want to note that iFi has been terrific in working with users on maximizing useability of their hardware!
  
 My only reason for responding is to note that among those who have done the most robust testing of playback software, HQ Player seems to be truly head and shoulders above the rest in terms of sound quality.  Getting there isn't necessarily easy as the software leaves a lot to be desired in terms of its library functions and learning to correctly apply the various filtering choices provided takes additional learning (and I often default to the easier to use JRiver, Audirvana or Amarra), but if your ultimate desire is to get the best possible listening experience from digital music files, then figuring out how to make the iFi DSD Pro work well with HQ player should be well worth the effort.


----------



## Franatic

+1...love HQ Player, occasionally I get stoppages during playback with my micro idsd. I was not sure of the cause.


----------



## money4me247

was there a price announced for this product?


----------



## ClieOS

money4me247 said:


> was there a price announced for this product?


 
 No final price, but official estimate is aroung 1.5k


----------



## kugino

money4me247 said:


> was there a price announced for this product?


 

 $1500 is the last one i saw...don't know if that has changed, though.


----------



## kurb1980

Have the final spec's been announced?


----------



## AxelCloris

Very interesting. I quite liked the iCan so the iCan Pro is intriguing.


----------



## EVOLVIST

"All Quiet on the iFi Front" by Erich Maria No Remarque


----------



## Franatic

"Shhhh.....we're huntin' wabbits".................................."What's up doc??"


----------



## Jimi Zine

Hi Ifi Audio, can you bring us up to speed on both the upcoming Ifi iDAC2 & the Ifi idsd Pro, final specs, pricing, release dates etc?

 Regards


----------



## BTD III

Is the iDAC2 a desktop DAC (with no amp) under the new PRO series?


----------



## technobear

btd iii said:


> Is the iDAC2 a desktop DAC (with no amp) under the new PRO series?




Yes and no.

It has its own thread:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/754820/idac2-is-a-coming-internal-discussions


----------



## Panagiotis

Hello to you all. 

Are there any news yet about the release date of ifi dac pro?


----------



## zephex

Not sure about the ifi dac pro, but i guess the IDAC 2 is the successor to the IDAC one and a new one won't be coming so soon?


----------



## MLGrado

HQPlayer?  I don't see the big deal.  Its best sound quality is in native mode.  All its other features require conversion to PCM.  I don't care what Miska or anyone else says, to do DSP on DSD requires changing the fundamental nature of the format.  And it doesn't matter what the sample rate is.  It has to be filtered, therefore there will be many, many redundant samples, making the higher sample rate just a great big waste of space, quite honestly.  Also, quite honestly, the filter performance of the DSP may not be any better than DXD.  
  
 If you need volume control on DSD, stick with analog.  Like iFi has been saying all along.


----------



## Mach3

mlgrado said:


> HQPlayer?  I don't see the big deal.  Its best sound quality is in native mode.  All its other features require conversion to PCM.  I don't care what Miska or anyone else says, to do DSP on DSD requires changing the fundamental nature of the format.  And it doesn't matter what the sample rate is.  It has to be filtered, therefore there will be many, many redundant samples, making the higher sample rate just a great big waste of space, quite honestly.  Also, quite honestly, the filter performance of the DSP may not be any better than DXD.
> 
> If you need volume control on DSD, stick with analog.  Like iFi has been saying all along.




Lol well said, you've just buried some of hq player fanboy.


----------



## kurb1980

mach3 said:


> Lol well said, you've just buried some of hq player fanboy.


 

 If you are using HQP to listen natively then you missed the point of what the software was designed to do.  Its and upsampling software that is designed to do just that hence it sounds best if your DAC can support DXD or DSD.  If your DAC doesn't support DXD/DSD then you could downsample to PCM using the filters and dithering never done that so I can't speak on the SQ.  I primarily use HQP to upsample PCM to DSD128 or higher with a DAC capable of handling those rates and with great results.  If I lived near any user I would demo the sound I have done so for my friends and family and they cannot believe how good it sounds.  If haven't tried it and have a DAC capable of PCM > 352.8kHZ or DSD > DSD128 download the trail if you don't like delete it.  If you need help with setting up reach out in a forum.  HQP looks quirky and has a learning curve, its not library manager like Jriver or Foobar either but when used with DAC capable of DXD/DSD you can get some awesome results.


----------



## bobsherman

Yes HQPlayer is one of the better sounding players out there.
  
 It is not good for people to talk about things they don't understand.


----------



## KritiKal

bobsherman said:


> Yes HQPlayer is one of the better sounding players out there.
> 
> It is not good for people to talk about things they don't understand.




http://www.audiostream.com/content/qa-thorsten-loesch-amrifi-audiostream-addendum-pcm-vs-dsd

An interesting read about PCM&DXD vs. DSD & PCM/DXD<->DSD conversion, from a person that does know what he's talking about, AMR & iFi's chief designer.

Sorry to disagree, but people need to talk about what they don't understand in order to understand it!


----------



## bobsherman

kritikal said:


> http://www.audiostream.com/content/qa-thorsten-loesch-amrifi-audiostream-addendum-pcm-vs-dsd
> 
> An interesting read about PCM&DXD vs. DSD & PCM/DXD<->DSD conversion, from a person that does know what he's talking about, AMR & iFi's chief designer.
> 
> Sorry to disagree, but people need to talk about what they don't understand in order to understand it!


 

 You see something in the article regarding the sound of up sampling with HQPlayer???
  
 Since IFi's DACs can go to 768 and 4xDSD do you think they are built for people not to up-sample? Can you give us a better sounding software player with better multiple filters that can up-sample to PCM and DSD? 
  
 Have you ever tried the software?


----------



## kurb1980

kritikal said:


> http://www.audiostream.com/content/qa-thorsten-loesch-amrifi-audiostream-addendum-pcm-vs-dsd
> 
> An interesting read about PCM&DXD vs. DSD & PCM/DXD<->DSD conversion, from a person that does know what he's talking about, AMR & iFi's chief designer.
> 
> Sorry to disagree, but people need to talk about what they don't understand in order to understand it!


 

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/direct-stream-digital-explain-it-me-because-im-not-getting-it-23433/index1.html
  
 A thread here that goes more into the detail of DSD from a measurement point of view along with some good developers who are light years smarter than me


----------



## KritiKal

bobsherman said:


> You see something in the article regarding the sound of up sampling with HQPlayer???
> 
> Since IFi's DACs can go to 768 and 4xDSD do you think they are built for people not to up-sample? Can you give us a better sounding software player with better multiple filters that can up-sample to PCM and DSD?
> 
> Have you ever tried the software?







kurb1980 said:


> http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/direct-stream-digital-explain-it-me-because-im-not-getting-it-23433/index1.html
> 
> A thread here that goes more into the detail of DSD from a measurement point of view along with some good developers who are light years smarter than me :wink_face:




Perhaps I should clarify my position...

I like both DSD & upsampling, I use and enjoy them. What I'm not a fan of is converting DSD to PCM or PCM to DSD, as you're always taking away from the formats.


----------



## bobsherman

kritikal said:


> Perhaps I should clarify my position...
> 
> I like both DSD & upsampling, I use and enjoy them. What I'm not a fan of is converting DSD to PCM or PCM to DSD, as you're always taking away from the formats.


 

 OK... That is fair. I do not necessarily convert from one format to another either.
  
 But... I have and it can sound very good.


----------



## KritiKal

bobsherman said:


> OK... That is fair. I do not necessarily convert from one format to another either.
> 
> But... I have and it can sound very good.




Ultimately, you need to do what sounds best for you, no matter what anybody says. Looking at it objectively though, keeping the source format is always going to be superior.
Having said that, most DSD DACs convert to PCM first anyway, so if you convert at the source stage it can improve the users perception with DSP. But, all the iDSD DACs support true native DSD conversion. To convert to PCM (for DSP) then even back to DSD defeats the whole purpose of iFi using the BB DSD1793 chip.

Apologies, I probably should have started with a post like this, just to avoid all the confusion.


----------



## pompon

bobsherman said:


> Yes HQPlayer is one of the better sounding players out there.
> 
> It is not good for people to talk about things they don't understand.




You are far from bit perfect with hq player because it done a lot of digital filter on the numeric part. If you want smear the bits, just use room correction, at least this will give you something useful.

btw, the difference between hq player and jriver with fidelizer in paranoid mode is very small and not worth loosing the jriver functionality at all.


----------



## labjr

Seems like people always have more positive experiences with conversion/filtering/upsampling done with DSP or DAC based than with media player software?


----------



## bobsherman

pompon said:


> You are far from bit perfect with hq player because it done a lot of digital filter on the numeric part. If you want smear the bits, just use room correction, at least this will give you something useful.
> 
> btw, the difference between hq player and jriver with fidelizer in paranoid mode is very small and not worth loosing the jriver functionality at all.


 

 What makes you think the output is anything but bit perfect?   JRiver is just mid-fi software. Enjoy it....


----------



## RAFA

Any News on this, related to the release?
  
 Also I would like to know, if it is true, that there will be an "Addon", so that one could drive Stax headphones.


----------



## iFi audio

*Pro series – working on something stellar* 
  
 We have been ‘off the grid’ of late on the Pro series.
  
 First the bad news – we apologise but the Pro iDSD and Pro iCAN will not make it in time for the Munich Show. Both models have been delayed until the summer, circa June/July.
  
 This does not best please us but there are two reasons. The upshot is that we don’t like to make things just to sell (though that is nice), we also like to ensure that you are getting something that is _truly special_ that has a serious amount of performance and longevity built-in.
  
 Special parts are nice and all but the Pro series like the micro iDSD we feel can be truly ‘interstellar’. Without giving too much away as we are still sometime off and things can change, there are 2 developments that explain the decision to push the launch date back:
  
*1. Going All Discrete and Tubes* – Instead of the proven TI current mode Headphone Buffers we have used in other iFi products, for the Pro-series we taken the decision to apply discrete Class A output buffers directly into the circuit design. This is a complete and fundamental re-design of both the iCAN and iDSD. The first and critical input stage of the single amplification stage (Unistage) can be selected to be either a very low noise J-Fet (< 4nV|/Hz) or a military grade General Electric NOS 5670 Tube.
  
*2. Pro Chassis* – some of you contacted us to remark that you would like the Pro chassis to be more appealing. It was not the final, final version but a prototype. Nonetheless, we acknowledge your comments and we took a look at it and thought ‘in for a penny…’. The final chassis will be different but not wholesale, but it should be nice.
  
 All things told, the delay to the Pro iDSD and iCAN launch is from mid-May to mid-July, of some 2 months.
  
 As we wish to keep some of the best bits under wraps, we shall keep further disclosures to the bare minimum, until the launch date is in sight. Thorsten and his gang would like to pass on their apologies and thank you all for your patience.
  
 The micro iDSD was a full Crowd-Design project. The Pro series is not but we still acknowledge your input and try to take out the best bits.
  
Thank you for your continued patience. It is very much appreciated.


----------



## Franatic

Hi ifi
  
 The long silence has been broken. I thought something was up. While disappointed, I encourage you to do all you can do to make this the end game item I am waiting for. The major redesign of the input stage leaves me with 3 questions:
  
 1)Will both the tube and Jfet stages be built in to the unit and selected via a switch setting?
 2) Will the 5670 tube be singular and socket mounted for swapping?
 3) Will the usb input be a "usb B" type that the gemini cable connects to?


----------



## HiFiRobot

ifi audio said:


> *Pro series – working on something stellar*
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Sounds like good improvements worth waiting for. What headphones are you using for tuning the Pro line?


----------



## iFi audio

hifirobot said:


> Sounds like good improvements worth waiting for. What headphones are you using for tuning the Pro line?


 
  
 Hi,
  
 Some pics:
  

  

  

  
 LCD-X, LCD-2, AKG K-1000 (early vers), HiFi Man HE-6, Fostex TL-50RP, Audio Technica-MS7, Sennheisser Momentums.
  
 Alclair RSMs, Shure 535, Etymotic ER-4 Klipsch S4i IEMs.
  
 These are the mainstays. Others come and go.


----------



## RAFA

ifi audio said:


> Hi,
> 
> Some pics:
> 
> ...




Sorry to bother you again, but will there be the amp-addon to be able to use electrostats? If yes, I will gladly wait for this product and skip any other amp...


----------



## EVOLVIST

Great news! I've always said I'd wait for the perfect product. A few months will be well worth it I'm sure.

Switchable from SS to tubes?


----------



## HiFiRobot

ifi audio said:


> Hi,
> 
> Some pics:
> 
> ...




Thanks. Much appreciated.


----------



## Jimi Zine

What's the latest price for the IFi Pro idsd?


----------



## iFi audio

rafa said:


> Sorry to bother you again, but will there be the amp-addon to be able to use electrostats? If yes, I will gladly wait for this product and skip any other amp...


 
  
 We are in the early prototyping stages and results are very promising.
  
 We intend to have such an add-on available. As Stax is not for everyone.
  
 Something that needs to be finalised is casework etc., not the principle and electronic design.


----------



## iFi audio

evolvist said:


> Great news! I've always said I'd wait for the perfect product. A few months will be well worth it I'm sure.
> 
> Switchable from SS to tubes?


 
  
 Hi,
  
 1) Will both the tube and J-Fet stages be built in to the unit and selected via a switch setting?
 Yes.
  
 2) Will the 5670 tube be singular and socket mounted for swapping?
 As the units are balanced, there will be two tubes and yes, they are mounted in sockets. But we do not recommend downgrading to the 6922 family. You can start the hunt for WE396A - but genuine ones will not be cheap.
  
 3) Will the usb input be a "usb B" type that the gemini cable connects to?
 This is being finalised, but there is likely to be a B-Type USB 3 Socket.
  
 Cheers.


----------



## Jimi Zine

Ifi Audio, when is the release date, how much will it be? Will we ever receive a definite answer to these questions or should we buy an alternative?


----------



## iFi audio

jimi zine said:


> Ifi Audio, when is the release date, how much will it be? Will we ever receive a definite answer to these questions or should we buy an alternative?


 
  
 Hi
  
 No definitive release date - price is excpected to be same as outlined before.
  
 If things change and once we have anything firm, we announce but we prefer to only do this when we are closer to fruition.
  
 Cheers.


----------



## EVOLVIST

ifi audio said:


> Hi,
> 
> 1) Will both the tube and J-Fet stages be built in to the unit and selected via a switch setting?
> Yes.
> ...




This is really brilliant stuff! I understand why you can't say more. Really, the ability to switch between tubes and SS is a dream for me. I tried a unit out of Austria that had this feature, but it was very clunky and poorly designed (will not name names).

Now it seems that I can put on my Elvis is Back! CD, listen to it via SS, and then be like, "Okay now, let's hear how it goes with some tubes." What's not to love about this design? I have little doubt that iFi will make it work! 

Have you guys tried the Pro with HD800s?


----------



## RAFA

ifi audio said:


> We are in the early prototyping stages and results are very promising.
> 
> We intend to have such an add-on available. As Stax is not for everyone.
> 
> Something that needs to be finalised is casework etc., not the principle and electronic design.




No problem there. As long it is in plans...

Thank you for answering an and I am really looking forward to the Pro.


----------



## Franatic

ifi audio said:


> Hi,
> 
> 1) Will both the tube and J-Fet stages be built in to the unit and selected via a switch setting?
> Yes.
> ...


 
 Thanks for the info on my 3 questions. I had already zeroed in on the WE396A............purchase made! 
  
 Let's get this thing out in July, please. Lucky for you guys, the micro is performing so excellently and sounds magnificent as a dac in my set-up.
  
 It will allow me to be a little patient......but I have much anticipation of how great this pro is gonna sound. It's making me wait....it's keeping me wai-yai-yaiting.


----------



## DougD

ifi audio said:


> Hi
> 
> No definitive release date - price is excpected to be same as outlined before.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Well, the good news is that a difficult discussion with the wife is delayed. 
  
 What I really need is a slush fund she doesn't know about. (With more than $10 in it.)


----------



## BrainFood

> Originally Posted by *iFi audio* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> *1. Going All Discrete and Tubes* – Instead of the proven TI current mode Headphone Buffers we have used in other iFi products, for the Pro-series we taken the decision to apply discrete Class A output buffers directly into the circuit design. This is a complete and fundamental re-design of both the iCAN and iDSD. The first and critical input stage of the single amplification stage (Unistage) can be selected to be either a very low noise J-Fet (< 4nV|/Hz) or a military grade General Electric NOS 5670 Tube.


 

  
  
  
  
 the pro is an exciting proposition indeed 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 .
  
  
 Using tubes 'n all, hopefully power consumption can still be kept down.  It would be great to have an option for turning off the preamp or headamp section (a la Yulong DA8), especially when using it in volume control bypass mode.   Auto standby would a handy option too, although I would probably leave it on 24/7.
  
  
 take your time, guys..


----------



## HedgeHog

Question for iFi:  Will there be a input priority for the iDSD Pro?  Meaning, that it outputs to the line outs until a headphone gets connected?  Currently, my iDSD micro seems to play to all outputs simultaneously so I had to either disconnect the line outs or send the signal to null so I can easily listen to headphones.  Pulling the RCA cables is an extra step I'd like to avoid.
  
 Cheers.
  
 -H


----------



## JuleZ3C

"*Pro series – working on something stellar"*
  
 Hello iFi,
  
 Is there some kind of 'data regenerator' à la UpTone REGEN in the pipe for the Pro series?
 Taking care of power supply noise from packet bursts would bring even more 'stellarness' to the implementation me thinks 
  
 All the best for this new exciting launch!


----------



## greenkiwi

I'm curious, when you say "pro" form factor, are you referring to *1/2* rack width devices?  
  
 I hope so, I really like that size for components.


----------



## kugino

count me very interested with the new changes...and the possibility of a 'stat add-on, whatever that means. maybe i'll hold off on a big purchase til this summer.


----------



## money4me247

was the price point of this announced?


----------



## Emerpus

Can't remember the exact but it was mentioned to be around the USD1500 price point.


----------



## money4me247

emerpus said:


> Can't remember the exact but it was mentioned to be around the USD1500 price point.




thanks!


----------



## DPogster

Hmmm... The pro line looks interesting. Any more info on the dac pro?


----------



## Franatic

Dear ifi
  
 Please, please, please, make the usb input connector a female "B" that would accept the gemini cable and 95% of the audiophile usb cables on the market. It really would be the right thing to do for a desktop unit.
  
 I would be dismayed if you chose differently but noticed the you did not commit to it.
  
 Thanks 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  
  
 We'll be watching and waiting.....with popcorn.


----------



## KritiKal

franatic said:


> Dear ifi
> 
> Please, please, please, make the usb input connector a female "B" that would accept the gemini cable and 95% of the audiophile usb cables on the market. It really would be the right thing to do for a desktop unit.
> 
> ...




I'm willing to bet that as a pure desktop unit, the female USB B port is a sure thing.


----------



## Franatic

ifi audio said:


> Hi,
> 
> 1) Will both the tube and J-Fet stages be built in to the unit and selected via a switch setting?
> Yes.
> ...


 
 Note item 3:
 "This is being finalised, but there is likely to be a B-Type USB 3 Socket."
  
 Likely is different than a sure thing. I am waiting for ifi to verify this connection. Certainly seems like a no-brainer and I can not see any reason why they would choose differently.


----------



## iFi audio

franatic said:


> Note item 3:
> "This is being finalised, but there is likely to be a B-Type USB 3 Socket."
> 
> Likely is different than a sure thing. I am waiting for ifi to verify this connection. Certainly seems like a no-brainer and I can not see any reason why they would choose differently.


 
  
 Hi,
  
 Yes, we can verify the iDSD will have a USB3.0 port. As others have commented this is 100% desktop so no use to have the USB 'A' male (CCK) connector. The former will be on the iDSD Pro. The latter will not.
  
 Cheers.


----------



## Franatic

ifi audio said:


> Hi,
> 
> Yes, we can verify the iDSD will have a USB3.0 port. As others have commented this is 100% desktop so no use to have the USB 'A' male (CCK) connector. The former will be on the iDSD Pro. The latter will not.
> 
> Cheers.


 
  
 Pardon me for asking, but is that a usb "B" 3.0 port. I do believe they come in both "A"  &  "B"
  
 Thanks


----------



## technobear

franatic said:


> ifi audio said:
> 
> 
> > Hi,
> ...




:rolleyes:


----------



## Franatic

M


franatic said:


> Pardon me for asking, but is that a usb "B" 3.0 port. I do believe they come in both "A"  &  "B"
> 
> Thanks


 
 My lawyers asked me to request even further clarification. Will it be( micro, mini or standard) ("A" or "B") (male or female) usb 3.0??????? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Thanks


----------



## iFi audio

franatic said:


> M
> My lawyers asked me to request even further clarification. Will it be( micro, mini or standard) ("A" or "B") (male or female) usb 3.0???????
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi,
  
 The iDAC2 which is over on another thread has the same standard USB 3.0 'B' port that the nano has and that the Pro iDSD will have.
   


 Cheers.


----------



## Franatic

Hi ifi,
  
 The lawyers and I are pleased with your answer. That is good news to me. Great choice! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 What is the latest target date for release? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Thanks


----------



## iFi audio

franatic said:


> Pardon me for asking, but is that a usb "B" 3.0 port. I do believe they come in both "A"  &  "B"
> 
> Thanks


 
  
 They do come in A & B.
  
 However for a stationary device it is "B" type. An "A" connector only makes on something that is designed for direct connection to an OTG Cable or a A type Host Port (USB Stick).


----------



## RadioWonder737

ifi audio said:


> Hi,
> 
> The iDAC2 which is over on another thread has the same standard USB 3.0 'B' port that the nano has and that the Pro iDSD will have.
> 
> ...


 
 Looks like we are going to have to use one of these Wireworld Starlight USB 3.0 Cables... Or another brand...


----------



## technobear

radiowonder737 said:


> ifi audio said:
> 
> 
> > Hi,
> ...




A USB 2.0 cable will suffice.


----------



## RadioWonder737

technobear said:


> A USB 2.0 cable will suffice.


 
 Just need an adapter...


----------



## Franatic

radiowonder737 said:


> Just need an adapter...


 
 ifi can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe a usb 3.0 connector will accept either a 2.0 or 3.0 input. So the gemini cable should fit and work with the idsd pro. Correct?


----------



## RadioWonder737

franatic said:


> ifi can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe a usb 3.0 connector will accept either a 2.0 or 3.0 input. So the gemini cable should fit and work with the idsd pro. Correct?


 
 According to Wiki you are correct...
  
 " A USB 3.0 Standard-B receptacle accepts either a USB 3.0 Standard-B plug or a USB 2.0 Standard-B plug. Backward compatibility applies to connecting a USB 2.0 Standard-B plug into a USB 3.0 Standard-B receptacle. Though, it is not possible to plug a USB 3.0 Standard-B plug into a USB 2.0 Standard-B receptacle, due to a physically larger connector. The Standard-B is used at the device side."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_3.0
  
​My humble apogees... 
Of course it is kind of silly to have a Lighting Fast USB 3.0 port and not reap the full benefits...


----------



## Franatic

HI ifi,
 What is the latest estimated release date? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Thanks


----------



## kugino

any chance the pro will be able to drive the he-6 properly? i know the idsd has enough power to drive them, but i never found them to sound all that great...if the pro were able to drive the he-6 decently, i'd take a good look at it.


----------



## iFi audio

franatic said:


> HI ifi,
> What is the latest estimated release date?
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi,
  
 Pro iCAN is the first. The Pro iCAN is estimated (not expected!) July/August.
  
 The Pro iDSD to follow 1-2 months later. The iDSD is the harder nut to crack.
   
As soon as we having something concrete our senior Skunkworks team have their work cut out on the Pro series.

  
 Cheers.


----------



## iFi audio

kugino said:


> any chance the pro will be able to drive the he-6 properly? i know the idsd has enough power to drive them, but i never found them to sound all that great...if the pro were able to drive the he-6 decently, i'd take a good look at it.


 
  
 Hi,
  
 The Pro iDSD - not possible.
  
 But the Pro iCAN - certainly. An outline of the Pro iCAN was provided a few pages back.
  
 Thanks.


----------



## Franatic

ifi audio said:


> Hi,
> 
> Pro iCAN is the first. The Pro iCAN is estimated (not expected!) July/August.
> 
> ...


 
 Hi ifi
  
 I appreciate a realistic estimate. I, for one, will wait. However, it is nice to plan my budget accordingly as I can make other upgrades to my system prior to the inevitable release of the idsd pro. I deem it to be worth waiting for. As I said previously, the thing that allows me to be patient is that the little micro idsd's dac is such an amazing overachiever for it's size and price in my desktop 2 pc system. It gives me great confidence how good the pro will be.
  
 Please give us updates and little glimpses of it as you can.
  
 Thanks


----------



## KritiKal

franatic said:


> Hi ifi
> 
> I appreciate a realistic estimate. I, for one, will wait. However, it is nice to plan my budget accordingly as I can make other upgrades to my system prior to the inevitable release of the idsd pro. I deem it to be worth waiting for. As I said previously, the thing that allows me to be patient is that the little micro idsd's dac is such an amazing overachiever for it's size and price in my desktop 2 pc system. It gives me great confidence how good the pro will be.
> 
> ...




I'm definitely holding out for the pro series too and almost certainly the iDSD. I was about to pull the trigger on a Liquid Carbon, but decided that I would rather go the iFi route, especially seeing they're only a few months away.. Whether I go with the iCAN to use with the iDSD Micro, or the iDSD, ultimately depends on how good the iCAN looks and how impatient I am at that point.  No more major upgrades until then too.


----------



## iFi audio

Hi,
  
 Thanks very much and gives Thorsten and his gang a bit more of a spur to push even harder.
  
 It really means a lot.
  
 We promise - anything close to soup, you will all be the first to know.


----------



## EVOLVIST

I was banking on the iDSD Pro for the 4th quarter, anyway. From what's being said that sounds about right.

It's what I'm holding out for.

Maybe another contest one day?


----------



## RAFA

I am not sure. Can someone explain me. Is the SS-amp and tube amp combo the iDSD pro or the iCan pro or something else.

In the last view posts is some talk about release dates, but I cannot tell what product will be released first.


----------



## technobear

[quote="iFi].
Hi,

Pro iCAN is the first. The Pro iCAN is estimated (not expected!) July/August.

The Pro iDSD to follow 1-2 months later. The iDSD is the harder nut to crack.
[/quote]


Seems obvious enough which one will be first :rolleyes:


----------



## EVOLVIST

rafa said:


> I am not sure. Can someone explain me. Is the SS-amp and tube amp combo the iDSD pro or the iCan pro or something else.
> 
> In the last view posts is some talk about release dates, but I cannot tell what product will be released first.




From my understanding both the iDSD Pro and the iCAN Pro are both SS and Tube. At least the last report was that the iDSD Pro is switchable from SS to tube, which sounds almost too good to be true.

Which got me thinking: if a person had the iDSD and iCAN Pro models, and there is supposed to be an iTube Pro model, then what is that, at least 6 tubes? Or has the iTube been cut out of the product line and integrated with the iDSD and iCAN, instead?


----------



## RAFA

evolvist said:


> From my understanding both the iDSD Pro and the iCAN Pro are both SS and Tube. At least the last report was that the iDSD Pro is switchable from SS to tube, which sounds almost too good to be true.
> 
> Which got me thinking: if a person had the iDSD and iCAN Pro models, and there is supposed to be an iTube Pro model, then what is that, at least 6 tubes? Or has the iTube been cut out of the product line and integrated with the iDSD and iCAN, instead?


 
  
 So basically, there will be two devices? iCan as amp only amd iDSD as amp+DAC.
  
 Actually, I am waiting for the iCan pro then, as I have enough other sources 
  
 I hope IFI Audio will clarify on their product portfolio and  road map.


----------



## john57

evolvist said:


> From my understanding both the iDSD Pro and the iCAN Pro are both SS and Tube. At least the last report was that the iDSD Pro is switchable from SS to tube, which sounds almost too good to be true.
> 
> Which got me thinking: if a person had the iDSD and iCAN Pro models, and there is supposed to be an iTube Pro model, then what is that, at least 6 tubes? Or has the iTube been cut out of the product line and integrated with the iDSD and iCAN, instead?


 
 IFI does have a product with six tubes the Retro 50.


----------



## buson160man

I added a ifi usb power supply to my desk top awhile ago and then the Gemini usb cable a bit later to my desk top set up and I have to say the result has been very positive in nature. For one it seems to eliminate a lot if not most all of the digital hash I was getting on my desk top set up.
  The sound is much more analog like making listening the sound on Netflix movies while watching them on my desktop monitor much more involving. I would say the effect of the ifi power supply and Gemini usb cable as pretty profound.
   I highly recommend it to anyone looking to improve the sound of their desk top set ups . While it is not inexpensive the result was at least in my case definitely worth the expense.


----------



## iFi audio

evolvist said:


> From my understanding both the iDSD Pro and the iCAN Pro are both SS and Tube. At least the last report was that the iDSD Pro is switchable from SS to tube, which sounds almost too good to be true.
> 
> Which got me thinking: if a person had the iDSD and iCAN Pro models, and there is supposed to be an iTube Pro model, then what is that, at least 6 tubes? Or has the iTube been cut out of the product line and integrated with the iDSD and iCAN, instead?


 

 Hi,
  
 From my understanding both the iDSD Pro and the iCAN Pro are both SS and Tube. At least the last report was that the iDSD Pro is switchable from SS to tube, which sounds almost too good to be true.
 - Correctamundo!
  
  
 Which got me thinking: if a person had the iDSD and iCAN Pro models, and there is supposed to be an iTube Pro model, then what is that, at least 6 tubes? Or has the iTube been cut out of the product line and integrated with the iDSD and iCAN, instead?
 - No more iTUBE Pro. It is inside the iCAN and iDSD Pro respectively.
  
  
 Things are evolving at a rapid clip. We just wish there were more hours in a day.


----------



## iFi audio

rafa said:


> So basically, there will be two devices? iCan as amp only amd iDSD as amp+DAC.
> 
> Actually, I am waiting for the iCan pro then, as I have enough other sources
> 
> I hope IFI Audio will clarify on their product portfolio and  road map.


 
  
 Hi,
  
 You are correct.
  
 The roadmap is not static. It is dynamic. Because we dont just develop products, we test beta chipsets and all manner of internal components from manufacturers. We keep quite mum on this side of iFI skunkworks. However, once in a while, when we come across stuff not on the audiophile radar, we say "we gotta integrate this puppy" then we integrate it into our product line.
  
 But what you have outlined is correct for the Pro series.


----------



## RAFA

ifi audio said:


> Hi,
> 
> You are correct.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Very nice! Meanwhile I can live with the iDSD micro


----------



## rickyleelee

ifi audio said:


> Hi,
> 
> You are correct.
> 
> ...




and i think other manufacturers read these threads - so no manufacturer is their right head would give a public roadmap - if their products are worth value.


----------



## rickyleelee

rafa said:


> Very nice! Meanwhile I can live with the iDSD micro




What do you mean test other manufacturer parts?


----------



## Esprit

ifi audio said:


> Pro iCAN is the first. The Pro iCAN is estimated (not expected!) July/August. The Pro iDSD to follow 1-2 months later. The iDSD is the harder nut to crack.


 
 October!!!???


----------



## Jimi Zine

Yep if all goes well. original release was CES in January, then Munich in May.


----------



## technobear

jimi zine said:


> Yep if all goes well. original release was CES in January, then Munich in May.




It's good to know that improving on the micro iDSD is so difficult


----------



## Jimi Zine

technobear said:


> It's good to know that improving on the micro iDSD is so difficult


 
 That's a positive way of looking at it.


----------



## KritiKal

ifi audio said:


> Because we dont just develop products, we test beta chipsets and all manner of internal components from manufacturers.




I'm also curious about this, but appreciate that you may decline to answer and is completely understandable.
Does this involve testing for the benefit of the manufacturer of the chipsets, testing for the potential of integration into iFi products, or, perhaps both (and quite unlikely, neither)?

I like the parent company's philosophy on integrating technology, that being that the date of manufacture, etc... is unimportant, what matters is if it's the best part for the job. I'm wondering if any of this bleeds through to iFi? Either way, it's good to know that you equally keep eyes on the past, present and future!


----------



## RAFA

Will there be a possibility to roll tubes? Would be really cool, but also highly addicting


----------



## iFi audio

kritikal said:


> I'm also curious about this, but appreciate that you may decline to answer and is completely understandable.
> Does this involve testing for the benefit of the manufacturer of the chipsets, testing for the potential of integration into iFi products, or, perhaps both (and quite unlikely, neither)?
> 
> I like the parent company's philosophy on integrating technology, that being that the date of manufacture, etc... is unimportant, what matters is if it's the best part for the job. I'm wondering if any of this bleeds through to iFi? Either way, it's good to know that you equally keep eyes on the past, present and future!


 
  
 Hi,
  
 Closer to the time - we may be able to divulge some stuff that got rolled into the Pro series. As it will become public information. At the moment, we have to keep mum.
  




  
 A little more will become clearer in due course. For sure there is 'trickle-up' and 'trickle-down' between iFi and AMR. For example, the GE5670 from the iTUBE is now standard in the AMRs. Previously, the AMRs used 6922 tubes.


----------



## iFi audio

rafa said:


> Will there be a possibility to roll tubes? Would be really cool, but also highly addicting


 
  
 Hi
  
 Yes, but we do not recommend downgrading to the 6922 family. Read: the Ford/VW of tubes, even the nicer ones.
  
 The GE5670 family are the Mercedes/BMW version. So from the GE5670, if you wish to 'roll-up' then one needs to look for WE396A or Bendix 2C51 or similar.
  
 Therefore, we do not recommend 'rolling-down' to the 6922.
  
 In a few weeks' time, we will write-up about the GE5670 family.


----------



## RAFA

ifi audio said:


> Hi
> 
> Yes, but we do not recommend downgrading to the 6922 family. Read: the Ford/VW of tubes, even the nicer ones.
> 
> ...




I am really looking forward to this.

Thank you for always answering my questions.


----------



## PinoNL

Can't wait to audition the new series. The iDSD nano is great little box


----------



## TheOneInYellow

Hmm, just chiming in.
  
 I still love my iFi Audio Retro Stereo 50, but I wanted to know if the performance of both the iDSD Pro and iCAN Pro will superseed the awesomeness of the Stereo 50?
  
 I'd like to know that if both have tubes, what exactly are they and how many too.
  
 For me the Stereo 50 has perfect SS and tube harmonics sound qualities combined, even though the Stereo 50 is a pure tube amp! (How on EARTH did you did that iFi Audio I have no idea; I say magic).
 Yet I would like to know if this quality of sound will remain, or be exceeded, by the tubes used in the Pro series. This is a very important factor to me as the 2xEL84X and 1xECF82 per channel (six tubes all in all) are majestic and exceptionally executed in the Stereo 50.
  
  

  
  
 My main concern is if the iDSD PRO is of lesser power than the iCAN pro, is it itself a more refined, powerful product over Stereo 50?
 (I'm pretty sure the iCAN PRO will certainly exceed the Stereo 50 on headphone amp duties).
  
 More so, the DAC in the Stereo 50 is very, very advanced, but it is a single chip (the beautiful Burr-Brown Japan DAC chip prior to Texas Instruments buy-out. I think the chip is PCM1795). That's because the Stereo 50 is a single ended design (DAC and amp). However, how much of a difference will the iDSD Pro have over the Stereo 50 performance wise?
  
 Also, will either iDSD PRP or iCAN PRO have phono/Bluetooth/NFC like the Stereo 50?
  
 In regards to the balanced outputs, will either device have 2.5mm TRRS output for user's who have such cable termination's already (beyond the 4-Pin and dual 3-Pin XLR outputs)?
  
 I think the Stereo 50 is a truly beautiful piece of hardware, but I do think the iDSD Pro is mighty tasty, and if I had a separate high-end DAC then I'd wish for the iCAN Pro instead.
  
 Thanks guys!
  
  


 (3.5mm low gain output is more than enough for my Audeze EL8 closed back headphones; the 6.3mm high gain output of 7W's is too much but better for my AKG K 712 headphones. If I use one, the other output is used to drive my awesome SubPac S2 seatback tactile bass system!).


----------



## john57

I have the Retro 50 also. I believe that the iCAN PRO might be close the Retro power-wise for headphones. The ICAN pro seems to be Hybrid tube design using two two GE 5670,  MOSFETS and bipolar transistors. The ICAN pro and the iDSD pro would have balanced outs. However I do not think that the ICAN and the iDSD pro can power passive speakers like the Retro 50 can. The Retro seems to be the most flexible for turntables as far I can tell. I am not viewing the Retro 50 as a lesser unit just a different "Pro" feature set. The Retro 50 has very good clarity for music.   The Retro 50 has more power than my LD VI+ for headphones even.


----------



## Bigbwb

ifi audio said:


> Hi,
> 
> Closer to the time - we may be able to divulge some stuff that got rolled into the Pro series. As it will become public information. At the moment, we have to keep mum.
> 
> ...


 

 I look forward to hearing more about the upcoming Pro iDSD.  I recently tried the Micro and it was nice but didnt provide much over my current Parasound Zdac other than DSD playback (which I have very little of).


----------



## TheOneInYellow

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!






john57 said:


> I have the Retro 50 also. I believe that the iCAN PRO might be close the Retro power-wise for headphones. The ICAN pro seems to be Hybrid tube design using two two GE 5670,  MOSFETS and bipolar transistors. The ICAN pro and the iDSD pro would have balanced outs. However I do not think that the ICAN and the iDSD pro can power passive speakers like the Retro 50 can. The Retro seems to be the most flexible for turntables as far I can tell. I am not viewing the Retro 50 as a lesser unit just a different "Pro" feature set. The Retro 50 has very good clarity for music.   The Retro 50 has more power than my LD VI+ for headphones even.






Hi john57,

Thanks for the info, and I agree with your points.

I think the Stereo 50 incredibly powerful for headphones, and it's versatility is amazing (over the Oppo HA-1).
I also love that on my Win 8.1 laptop if I use Tidal, web video's or YouTube app, Soundcloud, J River Media Centre 20, MPC HC, etc, it interfaces with the Stereo 50 DAC perfectly without any further user interaction.
Stereo 50 is mighty convient too with multiple sources.
Btw, I don't know what is the power output of the 3.5mm is; do you? I know the 6.3mm is 7W!

That said, if I was strictly for headphones and didn't have the Stereo 50, I'd be highly interested in the Pro series


----------



## iFi audio

theoneinyellow said:


> Hmm, just chiming in.
> 
> I still love my iFi Audio Retro Stereo 50, but I wanted to know if the performance of both the iDSD Pro and iCAN Pro will superseed the awesomeness of the Stereo 50?
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi,
  
 The Pro series is like BMW i8. It is a dedicated ubder sports car for obvious reasons.
  
 The Retro is like BMW X5. It is an amazing all-rounder, again for obvious reasons.
  
 The customer for one is different compared to the customer for the other.
  
 Like you just outlined, the specs show one is focused on doing one job - the Pro iCAN or Pro iDSD.
  
 Whereas the Retro Stereo 50 is focused upon 'all things to all people' whilst doing a might nice job.
  
 Hope this gives you a better sense how their relative market positions.
  
 Cheers.


----------



## TheOneInYellow

Lol:
  
 Pro Series =

  
  
 Retro Stereo 50 =

  
 I knew that Retro series is designed to be the best high-end all-rounder and the Pro series to be the best ultra-fi for specific audio chains. However I do wonder what would happen if both were combined for an ultimate, summit-fi product under the iFi Audio banner... 
  
 Oh, and one more thing; I do think balanced design is a fantastic concept and if well executed can yield magnitudes of audio euphoria, but I think the exact same is true for a well-designed single-ended concept too.
 For me the Stereo 50 is that example, and I wonder if you will go even further with the Retro concept and build a higher spec model in the future (I'm salivating at this prospect) ^^


----------



## iFi audio

theoneinyellow said:


> Lol:
> 
> Pro Series =
> 
> ...


 
  
 Bingo!
  
 The Stereo 50 is pretty insanely good. Put it this way - we really dont think there is anything that plays the gammut of sources, is 100% valve and drives speakers and headphones alike like high-end dedicated amps.
  
 Pro series - we're mum on that until later.


----------



## TheOneInYellow




----------



## technobear

theoneinyellow said:


> More so, the DAC in the Stereo 50 is very, very advanced, but it is a single chip (the beautiful Burr-Brown Japan DAC chip prior to Texas Instruments buy-out. I think the chip is PCM1795).




It's a Burr Brown DSD1793


----------



## TheOneInYellow

Thanks technobear!
  
 I wasn't too sure but I new it was one of the advanced Burr-Brown Japan chips.
 Either way the Burr-Brown DSD1793 (Texas Instrument's link here) is incredible and very advanced! 

 EDIT:
 Oh I found this nice little article about iFi Audio's thought's on different DAC chips, including the ESS SABRE ES9023 used in the original iDAC, and his personal opinion of the Burr Brown DSD1793!


----------



## technobear

theoneinyellow said:


> Thanks technobear!
> 
> I wasn't too sure but I new it was one of the advanced Burr-Brown Japan chips.
> Either way the Burr-Brown DSD1793 (Texas Instrument's link here) is incredible and very advanced!




I'd be interested to hear how the LS3.5 compares to the JB3 :normal_smile :


----------



## TheOneInYellow

Ah, about that, well you see, this and that happened, and I just continued to enjoy the LS3.5 and AKG K 712/Audeze EL8 CB as is.

 So, what I'm trying to say is...I haven't tried....

 [hides under chair]


----------



## technobear

theoneinyellow said:


> Ah, about that, well you see, this and that happened, and I just continued to enjoy the LS3.5 and AKG K 712/Audeze EL8 CB as is.
> 
> 
> So, what I'm trying to say is...I haven't tried....
> ...




A shameful lack of dedication to the hobby! :rolleyes:



So how does your impression of the LS3.5 now compare to your memory of the JB3? Do you enjoy them more? Or less? Or about the same?

There's a fair price difference between the two. The LS3.5 looks like it should be able to play louder but I'm curious about the rest of the sound. How, in particular, is the upper mid/low treble?


----------



## PinoNL

I can't wait to listen to the iDSD/iCAN combo and compare it with, let's say, a Moon Neo 430HA...


----------



## weerapats

I just found this thread today, How lucky I am.
Actually, I planned to buy a micro iDSD for my desktop system next weekend.
But after I read the whole information, I don't mind waiting and increasing the budget for a better.
I'm looking forward to the day that the Pro-line will be available in Thailand.


----------



## shutterbox

Its coming end-jun. Any snippets to feed us?


----------



## EVOLVIST

shutterbox said:


> Its coming end-jun. Any snippets to feed us?




I seriously doubt it comes the end if June. I'm banking on the 4th quarter.


----------



## Franatic

evolvist said:


> I seriously doubt it comes the end if June. I'm banking on the 4th quarter.


 
 Still I'll take some snippets. We were teased by a May promise, and then let down. Just something to keep our appetite whetted.  It's just too quiet, makes me nervous. That it was so close and then completely rescheduled tells me it is in kind of a restart on the design.
  
 Here is what was said last (3 weeks,2 days ago):
 "Pro iCAN is the first. The Pro iCAN is estimated (not expected!) July/August.
 The Pro iDSD to follow 1-2 months later. The iDSD is the harder nut to crack."
  
  That would mean sometime between August and October. If you examine the statement, it would be at least 3 month window, maybe. In my spare time I'm starting to look at the competition.......not seriously.........yet.
  
 Helloooo............


----------



## EVOLVIST

franatic said:


> Still I'll take some snippets. We were teased by a May promise, and then let down. Just something to keep our appetite whetted.  It's just too quiet, makes me nervous. That it was so close and then completely rescheduled tells me it is in kind of a restart on the design.
> 
> Here is what was said last (3 weeks,2 days ago):
> "Pro iCAN is the first. The Pro iCAN is estimated (not expected!) July/August.
> ...




Haha! Everyone is vying for that money. I'm sticking with this. The promise is too good. It'll happen. Read back on the iDSD micro thread. They didn't put that one out either until it was 100%. There were a few delays.


----------



## kameenadesi

what is the difference between the iCAN micro and the iCAN pro?


----------



## technobear

kameenadesi said:


> what is the difference between the iCAN micro and the iCAN pro?




This is an iCAN micro:




This might be an iCAN Pro:


----------



## kameenadesi

any difference in sound between the two?


----------



## john57

kameenadesi said:


> any difference in sound between the two?


 
 Only the beta testers knows for sure but it is safe bet that the ICAN pro will have more power for the headphones and uses two tubes. It seems to be balanced and a SS option as well.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/702376/ifi-audio-pro-desktop-line-discussion-thread/510#post_11469084


----------



## kameenadesi

cool! thanks for your help guys


----------



## iFi audio

To launch the iDAC2 with a little fanfare, a nice 'n free competition for all Head-Fi'yers.  
 All iFi and non-iFi customers are welcome to enter - good luck!
  

  
  
http://www.head-fi.org/t/754820/idac2-launching-with-a-bang-competition-with-mega-goodies-gotta-be-in-it-to-win-it-see-page-4-for-details/90

 For all the latest iFi audio videos:


----------



## iFi audio

We hope you like this:
  
  
iDAC2 + ‘Special iFi Music Sampler’ DSD album by Sound Liaison  
 We have seen the very nice Head-Fi people leave kind comments with their entries. So we thought we should return the compliment. Well, here goes.
  
 Costing you absolutely ZERO, from the great people at Sound Liasions studios, you will find three specially-selected tracks in three formats; PCM, FLAC and DSD (of course!).
  

  
iFi micro iDAC2 - Special iFi Music Sampler *01. Carmen Gomes Inc. – Thousand Shades of Blue*
*02. Andre Heuvelman – Oblivion*
‘Oblivion’ and ‘Thousand Shades of Blue’ were performed live in the studio, recorded in multi-track PCM 96kHz. The DSD conversion was done via an analog signal chain, using state of the art professional equipment to the Tascam DA-3000 DSD recorder.
  
*03. Tony Overwater & Bert van den Brink – Impromptu*
‘Impromptu’ was recorded live directly to DSD using the Tascam DA-3000 DSD recorder and simultaneously to PCM with the RME UFX.
  
  
 Whether you are an iFi customer or not, you are welcome to download this FREE iDAC2 PCM/DSD album courtesy of Sound Liasion in the Netherlands.
  
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/754820/idac2-launching-with-a-bang-competition-with-mega-goodies-gotta-be-in-it-to-win-it-see-page-4-for-details/300#post_11749432


----------



## Jimi Zine

Thanks for this Ifi Audio, going back to the thread, any news on the development of the idsd pro?


----------



## Franatic

jimi zine said:


> Thanks for this Ifi Audio, going back to the thread, any news on the development of the idsd pro?


 
 +1......................it's very quiet. The pro seems to have become a top secret project. It's been a month and a half since we heard anything.
  
 Any word on Project X?


----------



## BenFinney

franatic said:


> +1......................it's very quiet. The pro seems to have become a top secret project. It's been a month and a half since we heard anything.
> 
> Any word on Project X?


 

 +1
  
 Is it just me, or does it seem like iFi's answer to "when's the iDSD Pro coming?" is, "look, the iDAC2!".


----------



## BTD III

Can't get a reply from IFI even when I "PM" them on this website OR when I contact them on their own website! This has occurred with about 4 of the last messages sent to them over many, many weeks. Simple, brief questions that would not be difficult to answer.
  
 If ICAN Pro is still slated to be released end of July to first of Aug., they should certainly be able to just verify that at least. I can only guess from non-communication they they once again have more delays??


----------



## EVOLVIST

btd iii said:


> Can't get a reply from IFI even when I "PM" them on this website OR when I contact them on their own website! This has occurred with about 4 of the last messages sent to them over many, many weeks. Simple, brief questions that would not be difficult to answer.
> 
> If ICAN Pro is still slated to be released end of July to first of Aug., they should certainly be able to just verify that at least. I can only guess from non-communication they they once again have more delays??




Well, I'm not an iFi spokesperson (let's be very clear on that), but what's worse, promising a date and not being able to come through, or being ambiguous about, which gives a little leeway?

I mean, I'm not a very patient person, but since I have the iDSD micro, and it sounds so good, I can afford myself a little time to wait.

Thinking about it from their prospective, they have to up the ante to compete with DACs like the OPPO-H1 and the W4S. So, if iFi doesn't come out with the crème, they'll be taken for crap. And they will - the sweet stuff.

I can only go by experience, that when I tried one the very few DACs that promised switchabity between tubes and SS, it failed miserably. But if anyone can do it right it'll be these Englanders.


----------



## iFi audio

Hi,
  
 we apologise for our tardiness with an update on the progress but we are snowed under - as the just released iDAC2 and a few others are in the Skunkworks. As the Pro series is iFi's flagship, we will continue to divulge minimal details until it is close to being ready. BUT what we can confirm as of today is that a prototype that people can audition will be ready for RMAF in October. The Pro iDSD is also underway. Making the Pro series soooo good that we are happy to let it out into the wild takes a fair amount of work. This is not a 'standard' iFi product. It is our flagship - so if it never sees the light of day because we are not 110% happy with it, it will not. But fingers crossed that it does.
  
 Many thanks.


----------



## Jimi Zine

Thanks for this, will this be a prototype of the idsd pro DAC, at RMAF in October?


----------



## EVOLVIST

ifi audio said:


> Hi,
> 
> we apologise for our tardiness with an update on the progress but we are snowed under - as the just released iDAC2 and a few others are in the Skunkworks. As the Pro series is iFi's flagship, we will continue to divulge minimal details until it is close to being ready. BUT what we can confirm as of today is that a prototype that people can audition will be ready for RMAF in October. The Pro iDSD is also underway. Making the Pro series soooo good that we are happy to let it out into the wild takes a fair amount of work. This is not a 'standard' iFi product. It is our flagship - so if it never sees the light of day because we are not 110% happy with it, it will not. But fingers crossed that it does.
> 
> Many thanks.




Thank you. So, you're saying that there's a possibility that the iDSD Pro will not happen?


----------



## BenFinney

I always wondered at what point does iFi start cannibalizing the AMR line?
  
 The state of the art in DACs has been moving quickly in the last two years and some of that iFi can take credit for.  But perhaps we're starting to see the tipping point where a new DAC that distinguishes itself from the current crop will have a higher price point than the market will bear.
  
 Perhaps it's telling that iFi has chosen to enter the crowded desktop headphone amp market.  If indeed iFi has scuttled plans for a desktop DAC, there's really no where else to go but headphone amps.


----------



## BTD III

IFI I am pretty sure was actually writing of the ICAN Pro and NOT the IDSD Pro when referring to a* prototype* available in Oct. This via a PM email sent from them specifically about RMAF and the ICAN Pro. IDSD Pro to come even later......


----------



## Jimi Zine

I think you are right BTD III, pretty sure Ifi's response was carefully worded to be deliberately vague, doubt the idsd pro will even be at next year's CES (2016) show now...


----------



## Franatic

Well, if I read correctly, the idsd pro will not be at RMAF. After the statement about a Pro series unit being there, ifi states: "The Pro iDSD is also underway.". Very, very cryptic. It feels further away now than ever, and I agree that it is unlikely to be seen this year.
 I wonder if anything stated about the design previously holds water. I bought the WE396 tubes believing the release of a unit as described was imminent. Could be a waste of money now.
 Sounds like a complete redesign is underway.


----------



## semeniub

No doubt many other companies/individuals are watching iFi's product moves closely now, so I would understand if they felt the need to provide a bit of "misdirection" regarding their product development.
  
 Of course, they may just want to be taking their time to get things just right...


----------



## JuleZ3C

Disclaimer : I'm not a Schiit fanboy at all, never owned any of their products. (but I'm gonna receive a Regen in the coming days)
  
 The launch of the Yggdrasil a couple months back, promising (and apparently really offering) REAL TRUE NATIVE PCM conversion for 2k$ and change may have rattled a bit our favorite Englanders (and German born designer in chief).
 USB interfaces have also progressed a lot these last few months (signal reclocking and impedance matching, see Uptone Regen for instance)
  
 A full product reevaluation was to be done I guess. Wish the resulting products will be worth the wait!


----------



## KritiKal

julez3c said:


> Disclaimer : I'm not a Schiit fanboy at all, never owned any of their products. (but I'm gonna receive a Regen in the coming days)




Just out of curiosity, you do know that the Regen is made by Uptone Audio and not Schiit, right?


----------



## ClieOS

julez3c said:


> Disclaimer : I'm not a Schiit fanboy at all, never owned any of their products. (but I'm gonna receive a Regen in the coming days)
> 
> The launch of the Yggdrasil a couple months back, promising (and apparently really offering) REAL TRUE NATIVE PCM conversion for 2k$ and change may have rattled a bit our favorite Englanders (and German born designer in chief).
> USB interfaces have also progressed a lot these last few months (signal reclocking and impedance matching, see Uptone Regen for instance)
> ...


 
  
 Can't see either as a game changer. The DAC chosen by Schiit is certainly interesting, but only 20bits plus no native DSD decoding makes it a more limited choice, probably more appealing to those who are looking for a ladder DAC. As for Uptone Regen - I'll say there are just too much claim but not enough (scientific) proof.


----------



## semeniub

clieos said:


> Can't see either as a game changer. The DAC chosen by Schiit is certainly interesting, but only 20bits plus no native DSD decoding makes it a more limited choice, probably more appealing to those who are looking for a ladder DAC. As for Uptone Regen - I'll say there are just too much claim but not enough (scientific) proof.


 

 I think that you'll be waiting some time to see your scientific "proof" as to how the Regen is really working. Compared to other large industries, the audiophile world is minor and there is limited research funds available to carry out real scientific work. And no, blind testing and measuring tweaks with an analyzer or scope doesn't really count as real science.
  
 My own experience with the Uptone Regen powered by a LPS (and used in combination with a Corning Optic USB cable, iFi iUSB and micro iDSD and LPS powered iCAN) is that there was a satisfying improvement. True high-end sound for not that much money. Since I understand that full scientific proof as to why may not ever come, this is good enough for me.


----------



## ClieOS

semeniub said:


> I think that you'll be waiting some time to see your scientific "proof" as to how the Regen is really working. Compared to other large industries, the audiophile world is minor and there is limited research funds available to carry out real scientific work. And no, blind testing and measuring tweaks with an analyzer or scope doesn't really count as real science.
> 
> My own experience with the Uptone Regen powered by a LPS (and used in combination with a Corning Optic USB cable, iFi iUSB and micro iDSD and LPS powered iCAN) is that there was a satisfying improvement. True high-end sound for not that much money. Since I understand that full scientific proof as to why may not ever come, this is good enough for me.


 
  
 I am not actually asking for a full blown engineer report, just some basic explanation why / how it works. Apparently that is also not provided as well and it is not like we don't understand how electronics, or just USB works.. Unfortunately for me, just saying 'it works!' is not enough of an evidence... but enough of that, as this is not a Uptone Regen thread.


----------



## semeniub

clieos said:


> I am not actually asking for a full blown engineer report, just some basic explanation why / how it works. Apparently that is also not provided as well and it is not like we don't understand how electronics, or just USB works.. Unfortunately for me, just saying 'it works!' is not enough of an evidence... but enough of that, as this is not a Uptone Regen thread.


 

 Sorry for offending you with my response. If you are really interested in how it works, look for comments from one of the developers, John Swenson. His descriptions are all that are really available for now.
  
 The setup I currently have with the Regen feeding into my micro iDSD is really bulky and cumbersome. It would be a  masterstroke if iFi could improve their USB inputs for the upcoming iDSD Pro so that all of this wouldn't be needed.


----------



## ClieOS

I am not offended in anyway. Just not quite understanding how a company can produce an fairly expensive product (*consider that it is an USB hub technically, even if it is a very good one) and doesn't bother to put some time to write it up properly on its product's page. If the developer has the time to explain it in the forum, he should have time to write a basic white paper, or just the basic tech in the product's introduction. I am sure more people will appreciate a tech product if it has a sound black ground info clearly listed in plain sight. I won't even call that marketing, but good business practice.


----------



## semeniub

clieos said:


> I am not offended in anyway. Just not quite understanding how a company can produce an fairly expensive product (*consider that it is an USB hub technically, even if it is a very good one) and doesn't bother to put some time to write it up properly on its product's page. If the developer has the time to explain it in the forum, he should have time to write a basic white paper, or just the basic tech in the product's introduction. I am sure more people will appreciate a tech product if it has a sound black ground info clearly listed in plain sight. I won't even call that marketing, but good business practice.


 

 My guess is that the lack of information is intentional, so that the exact functionality of the device is not as easily copied.


----------



## ClieOS

...and I'll guess someone just being lazy, but what do I know, right? In any case, I'll let those interested in Uptone Regen worry about it and go back to my regular (iFi) program.


----------



## JuleZ3C

kritikal said:


> Just out of curiosity, you do know that the Regen is made by Uptone Audio and not Schiit, right?


 
 Yup, of course.
 As I was also citing Uptone Audio products, I thought it was fair to imply that I was a bit infatuated with it...
  
 The main difference of the Regen is impedance matching, nothing else to explain.
 From their website : "It accomplishes this by combining* *a carefully chosen USB hub chip with an ultra low-noise regulator and low-jitter clock.  Importantly, it does so with ideal impedance matching—*right at the input of your DAC."*
  
No offense intended but do you want a scientific proof that most other companies haven't explored this way of improving signal integrity between interfaces? (while impedance matching has been debated time and again when coaxial is the interface of choice)


----------



## ClieOS

julez3c said:


> ... The main difference of the Regen is impedance matching, nothing else to explain.
> From their website : "It accomplishes this by combining* *a carefully chosen USB hub chip with an ultra low-noise regulator and low-jitter clock.  Importantly, it does so with ideal impedance matching—*right at the input of your DAC."*
> 
> No offense intended but do you want a scientific proof that most other companies haven't explored this way of improving signal integrity between interfaces? (while impedance matching has been debated time and again when coaxial is the interface of choice)


 
  
 I assume this is mainly for me? I think what Uptone's claim (*assuming that's what they are claiming, the impedance matching is the main function of the Regen) should be addressed in two questions: First, is impedance mismatch a common problem for typical USB DAC connection (*which, by typical, I mean a solid, built-to-USB spec, no-fancy 1 meter or less USB cable between the PC and USB DAC)? Secondly, how is impedance mismatch on a typical USB DAC connection affects SQ and is Regen helps to address this issue? Now impedance matching is fairly well known issue on digital transmission and I'll think some simple explanation on the product's page is more than enough. It is not like impedance matching is a new thing and Uptone has just discovered it, so I don't think there will some sensitive trade secret they can't tell us. Also, I am not saying Regen can't work - I can see how it will help if you have a particularly long USB connection where impedance mismatch can become a serious issue, though that won't be a 'typical' USB connection, so to speak.


----------



## Sergiusz OMD

Am I only fed up of waiting?!


----------



## weerapats

iFi, Any update about the iDSD Pro please!


----------



## Franatic

The last line of ifi's last post on July 15th read:
 " This is not a 'standard' iFi product. It is our flagship - so if it never sees the light of day because we are not 110% happy with it, it will not. But fingers crossed that it does."
  
 That statement seems to make any release of the idsd pro "IFFY". I'm at the point where I don't know what to think. My impression is that the whole prior development has been scuttled and they are restarting. Of course, we can only make conjectures because anything ifi says these days is cryptic at best and possibly misleading.
  
 I have been asking for updates for months and each statement seems to lead further and further from release.


----------



## iFi audio

franatic said:


> The last line of ifi's last post on July 15th read:
> " This is not a 'standard' iFi product. It is our flagship - so if it never sees the light of day because we are not 110% happy with it, it will not. But fingers crossed that it does."
> 
> That statement seems to make any release of the idsd pro "IFFY". I'm at the point where I don't know what to think. My impression is that the whole prior development has been scuttled and they are restarting. Of course, we can only make conjectures because anything ifi says these days is cryptic at best and possibly misleading.
> ...


 
  
 Hi,
  
 What we mean is that this product needs to quite spectacular otherwise it wont go on sale.
  
 If it takes is longer to make it truly stellar - it will take longer. If we are not happy with its sonics to challenge uber DACs, then we wont bring it out for sale, ever. Of course we dont want that to happen. But we say this because we have the luxury of making the Pro series because we _can_, not because we _have to_.
  
 We genuinely appreciate everyone's patience - our industry friends tell us the Pro line is being closely watched. So there has been an embargo on what we are able to say.
  
 Therefore, for the time being, we prefer to keep mum until it is soup.
  
 Then we'll happily divulge the inner workings.


----------



## xuan87

ifi audio said:


> Hi,
> 
> What we mean is that this product needs to quite spectacular otherwise it wont go on sale.
> 
> ...


 
  
 If only everyone in the audio industry has your attitude and pride in their works. You're totally right, don't release something just for the sake of releasing something. And you don't own us anything. Any hint or teaser that you give us is a bonus but not a necessity.


----------



## rickyleelee

Agree fully. But me got wondering who is watching the Pro line. Are we able to guess???????


----------



## EVOLVIST

rickyleelee said:


> Agree fully. But me got wondering who is watching the Pro line. Are we able to guess???????




I've already told you. It's zee Germans.

The Americans who masquerade as Vikings have no horse in the DSD race.


----------



## Franatic

Oh no!! Perhaps Thorsten Loesch has been kidnapped!!


----------



## Franatic

Dear ifi,
  
 All kidding aside, I do want you to make the idsd pro the best it can be. I have much confidence then when (not if) it comes out, it will slay anything in its price range. For me, I see it as my end game dac.
  
 I am sure you can understand our frustration in seeing it so close to release, then pulled back. I will wait....and continue to prod for info, just to let you know we are out here.......waiting 
  
 In the meantime, I added the Uptone Regen to the input of the micro idsd with fantastic results. It will help me be more patient. Stunning sound quality coming from the micro!


----------



## sdolezalek

I too want the iFi  iDSD Pro to be the absolute standard setter for its price range and more.  I am curious, however, whether you think we are approaching the "Pentium stage" for DACs.  By that, I mean the point at which improvements are certainly still possible, but where the overall step-up compared to that in the 286 to 386 and 386 to 486 series of computer chips became less and less obvious.  In computers it meant we stopped upgrading our PC every two years.  In DACs it feels like we might be approaching the same point, where a really great iDSD Pro might be a customer's last DAC for 5+ years....   
  
 For iFi, as a DAC manufacturer, that might not be a good thing.  You might rather continue to have us upgrade to the next level every other year.  But I'm curoius as to how far along that path we (and more specifically iFi has now come)?


----------



## tf10charged

dear IFI,
  
 is this another thousand dollars dac that is out of reach for many? would appreciate if it is a little price friendly like your micro and nano line


----------



## iFi audio

sdolezalek said:


> I too want the iFi  iDSD Pro to be the absolute standard setter for its price range and more.  I am curious, however, whether you think we are approaching the "Pentium stage" for DACs.  By that, I mean the point at which improvements are certainly still possible, but where the overall step-up compared to that in the 286 to 386 and 386 to 486 series of computer chips became less and less obvious.  In computers it meant we stopped upgrading our PC every two years.  In DACs it feels like we might be approaching the same point, where a really great iDSD Pro might be a customer's last DAC for 5+ years....
> 
> For iFi, as a DAC manufacturer, that might not be a good thing.  You might rather continue to have us upgrade to the next level every other year.  But I'm curoius as to how far along that path we (and more specifically iFi has now come)?


 
  
  
 Hi,
  
 Yes - is the short answer as the 'sound for the £' today compared to only a few years ago is much better. We are not the only ones, there are many other manufacturers who are on the same track and doing good things.
  
 One thing we do is try to give the best value for money over the long term. So the recently launched iPOWER is a new power supply upgrade for existing iFi equipment.
  
 This short comment just went live today:
 http://ifi-audio.com/reviews/diminuitive-iphonoipower-david-slays-goliaths-and-then-some/
  
 From AMR equipment - the 77 through to the 777, we always try to offer upgrades/updates where possible. For iFi, this has been the iPOWER but also the iTUBE and iUSB do similar things as it squeezes more out of existing equipment.
  
 With regards to the other question, the Pro series is undoubtedly the flagship/helicarrier so it is not going to be priced in the nano/micro class.


----------



## sdolezalek

Actually, one of the things that I really like about the whole iFi line is its modularity. Rather than having to return a big piece of electronics, I can simple buy an iPower, iTube or other upgrade as it becomes available and thereby improve my audio system incrementally. Although the Pro series is the flagship line, I do hope that you will retain some degree of this modularity so that as components improve, we can continue along that upgrade path without starting over. 

In addition, my kids like it because when Dad upgrades from Nano to Micro, they get the Nano, so they too are eagerly awaiting the Pro so they can get their hands on the Micro.


----------



## semeniub

sdolezalek said:


> Actually, one of the things that I really like about the whole iFi line is its modularity. Rather than having to return a big piece of electronics, I can simple buy an iPower, iTube or other upgrade as it becomes available and thereby improve my audio system incrementally. Although the Pro series is the flagship line, I do hope that you will retain some degree of this modularity so that as components improve, we can continue along that upgrade path without starting over.
> 
> In addition, my kids like it because when Dad upgrades from Nano to Micro, they get the Nano, so they too are eagerly awaiting the Pro so they can get their hands on the Micro.


 

 Completely agree with this, upgrade path modularity and value-for-money are definitely key features of the iFi product line.


----------



## Franatic

semeniub said:


> Completely agree with this, upgrade path modularity and value-for-money are definitely key features of the iFi product line.


 
 Originally the price ifi was projecting was in the $1500 range. It seems they have raised their aim for the idsd pro. Let's hope the doesn't lead to raising the price.


----------



## semeniub

franatic said:


> Originally the price ifi was projecting was in the $1500 range. It seems they have raised their aim for the idsd pro. Let's hope the doesn't lead to raising the price.


 

 (Regen with good LPS) + micro iDSD + decent interconnects + micro iTube already gets you into the $1500 range and the combo sounds great. If the iDSD Pro can do better than that for similar money, I won't be too upset about the price.


----------



## kurb1980

I'm holding off on selling my Benchmark HGC DAC2 until they launch the pro flagship!  I like that they have high standards and are not rushing to get a product out there without scrutiny.  With that said I'm hoping for a end of the year release early FY16 latest.


----------



## EVOLVIST

You know, I read through this whole thread and two things popped out to me:

1.) Boy, did I write some ignorant stuff, as I was learning the audio concepts I know now! Haha.

2.) This thread was started in January 2014. Since that time iFi launched the iDSD micro, the Retro 50, and the iDAC2. That's pretty fast work, actually. This thread helped me put that in perspective. 

In October iFi will have the prototype for the iCAN Pro for listening. This made me think, "What is the iCAN Pro without an eventual iDSD Pro to follow?" That is, one can't just have one product and call it a "line" can they?

I'll admit, I too, have been looking at other products, but I just can't seem to budge myself from the iFi bug.

I know a few other people out there like that, but I have to figure that patience will pay off for all of us. Now, I'm even wondering if the iCAN Pro might be suited for me, as well, even though I've sworn by my SPL Auditor HP amp as end-game. I keep reading the specs for the iCAN Pro, looking at the versatility, and really wanting to get my hands on that thing. 

Anyway, what made me snap out of my hunt for another DAC was listening to Roger Waters' "Amused to Death" with my iDSD micro and thinking that if it can get better than this with iFi, I really want it.


----------



## JootecFromMars

evolvist said:


>





> Computer - > iUSB Power - > Gemini Cable - >  iDSD Micro - > SPL Auditor - > HD800s - > Mind (blown)


 
  
 Not too dissimilar to my setup. Macbook Air -> Schiit Wyrd -> iDSD Micro - > SPL Phonitor Mini -> LCD2F.
  
 Have you ever considered or tried adding an iTube to your setup?
  
 Also, are your headphones connected with a 6.3mm jack or dual-xlr to the rear of the Auditor?


----------



## EVOLVIST

jootecfrommars said:


> Not too dissimilar to my setup. Macbook Air -> Schiit Wyrd -> iDSD Micro - > SPL Phonitor Mini -> LCD2F.
> 
> Have you ever considered or tried adding an iTube to your setup?
> 
> Also, are your headphones connected with a 6.3mm jack or dual-xlr to the rear of the Auditor?


 
  
 Yeah, pretty cool setup! 
  
 Yes, I _did_ have an iTube, but I found that only certain recordings leant a really cool feel with tubes, while others didn't. Most of my recordings didn't so the iTube just sat there, and I got tired of putting it in-line and then out-of-line again. That's one of the many things about the iDSD Pro specs is that it promises to switchable from tubes to SS. No taking a tube buffer out-of-line: just a flick of the switch.
  
 As for my Auditor, I go single ended, 6.3mm jack. I've tried various balanced headphone rigs, before, with HD800s and either it sounds like the music is coming in one big rush, or it looses some aspect of stereo imagery, or no effect at all. I know there are lots of people who love to go balanced HP in, and that's awesome; I just don't think it's for me.
  
 Now, balanced interconnects are a different story, and I'm really keen on going balanced from the iDSD Pro into my SPL Auditor.
  
 So, I take it you like your rig? I LOVE mine!


----------



## Mach3

evolvist said:


> Yeah, pretty cool setup!
> 
> Yes, I _did_ have an iTube, but I found that only certain recordings leant a really cool feel with tubes, while others didn't. Most of my recordings didn't so the iTube just sat there, and I got tired of putting it in-line and then out-of-line again. That's one of the many things about the iDSD Pro specs is that it promises to switchable from tubes to SS. No taking a tube buffer out-of-line: just a flick of the switch.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Same reason I'm waiting for the iDSD Pro. Need balance output to feed my Beta 22 & SPL Phonitor


----------



## despinos

Any chance of the iDSD Pro being a streamer?


----------



## iFi audio

despinos said:


> Any chance of the iDSD Pro being a streamer?


 
  
 Hi,
  
 DAC only - not front-end transport!


----------



## bjas406

The ability to choose a unit with or without the headphone amp would be great.


----------



## Franatic

bjas406 said:


> The ability to choose a unit with or without the headphone amp would be great.


 
 ++1


----------



## EVOLVIST

It would be great, sure. I think the iDSD Pro should be R2R, playing DSD, obviously, and still be switchable from tube/valve to SS.

Whatever the case, though, it seems that iFi has done a drastic redesign (and they've alluded to this), so I expect the results to be nothing short of spectacular. 

I posted a recent email about how iFi had announced the Pro about a year and a half ago now. To put it further I prospective, Schiit had announced the Yggdrasil back in 2013, and peeps are just now getting units.

It takes time.


----------



## gr8soundz

evolvist said:


> It would be great, sure. I think the iDSD Pro should be R2R, playing DSD, obviously, and still be switchable from tube/valve to SS.


 
  
 Will the tube/valve section also work via preamp (or line out) to use the iFi Pro as a balanced tube DAC?


----------



## EVOLVIST

gr8soundz said:


> Will the tube/valve section also work via preamp (or line out) to use the iFi Pro as a balanced tube DAC?




I would imagine so, as the audio signal passes through the SS or tubes on its way to any output, either the HP jack or RCA and XLR.


----------



## gr8soundz

I'm finding on most tube amp/dacs that the tubes are usually bypassed when not using the amp. The only ones using them on the output stage for sure are tube dacs with no headphone amp.
  
 Maybe @iFi audio can chime in on what the design plan or if they can add this feature.
  
 I know the Pro probably won't be crowd designed like the Micro but I'm thinking about holding off getting another dac until the Pro is released. My Micro is so versatile that each time I think of swapping it for something else, I just change a few switches to get closer to the sound I want. Would be nice to have that versatility with both tubes and balanced in/out.


----------



## sdolezalek

I have so far resisted the temptation to suggest any new iFi Pro features because any such features will, in all likelihood, affect final pricing.
  
 However, given that this is going to be a desktop rather than a portable unit, the one feature that I really think all high-end DACs should have is "analog bypass" capabilties.  Why?  Because for the best possible sound I would want to feed the iFi Pro directly into my amplifiers and then directly to my speakers, nothing else in the signal chain.
  
 But most iFi owners will likely have other source equipment and thus a stereo or multichannel preamplifier (I use the excellent Bryston SP3 which itself has balanced analog bypass capabilities).  But for the very best sound from the DAC (which is presumably why we buy the best, we want the DAC's output going direct and unless you are into replugging your cables all the time, the only way to do that is to put analog bypass capabilities in the DAC itself.
  
 Thoughts?


----------



## gr8soundz

The iDSD Micro already has that feature with its direct/preamp switch on the bottom. It also has dual dacs and the reason iFi is taking its time with Pro is because they're having a hard time making significant improvements over the Micro including its dac.
  
 If all you want is great dac with analog bypass, may as well get a Micro now.


----------



## sdolezalek

To be clear, what I meant was a true balanced analog bypass.  The Micro may be able to perform that on an RCA basis, but still requires replugging as there are not two separate sets of outputs.  For example, the Oppo HA-1 has it:


----------



## Franatic

gr8soundz said:


> The iDSD Micro already has that feature with its direct/preamp switch on the bottom. It also has dual dacs and the reason iFi is taking its time with Pro is because they're having a hard time making significant improvements over the Micro including its dac.
> 
> If all you want is great dac with analog bypass, may as well get a Micro now.


 
 Correct, that is how I run my micro.......in direct mode only. Combined with the Regen, it is a very superior dac  I'm not in such a hurry now for the pro. I still want it though. I am intrigued what it will be and how much it will cost. ifi was very open in the beginning, now it has become a top secret project.


----------



## iFi audio

evolvist said:


> I would imagine so, as the audio signal passes through the SS or tubes on its way to any output, either the HP jack or RCA and XLR.


 
  
 Hi,
  
 To answer this and the previous question posed.
  
  
 For the iDSD Pro we really went back to the drawing board after the first version. As a result its basic topology is _very purist_; which literally means just a passive lowpass filter, Volume Control and an Output Amplifier that could drive Headphones or Line Outputs with equal quality. This ultra simple signal path is one of the reasons that allowed the iDSD nano to offer such good sound quality on such modest budget. Its giant slayer status is largely attributed to this approach and we are adopting the same for the Pro iDSD.
  
 Of course, for the iDSD Pro we have improved the quality and performance of these basic blocks massively. And we mean massively.
  
 The passive low-pass filter incorporates inductors to form a LCRC filter with better filtering of unwanted digital noise while offering a wider audio bandwidth free of analogue phase-shift.
  
 The Volume control is no longer a Chip, instead a balanced Alps Potentiometer (16mm Alps Black) is used. There is more to this Volume control which will be revealed at a later time. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 For fixed level line outputs the volume control is fully bypassed via relays (just like you find on the AMR DP-777) for the purest possible sound, connect a headphone and the Volume Control is restored.
  
 The Output Amplifier is our new all discrete “Pro-Stage” which does away not only with Op-Amp Chips themselves but even with traditional Op-Amp like structures implemented discretely (e.g. like all these “discrete Op-Amp replacements”. It should be quite unique. Instead the circuitry owes much to the discrete designs of both Neumann and TAB-Telefunken for the West-German radio & TV studio equipment and those of the RFZ in former East-Germany, either of which justly enjoy 'legendary' status in the Pro audio world. Integrating the option to switch the crucial and sound quality determining first gain stage between tube and a j-fet gives additional control over the sound quality.
  
 The actual output stage of this circuit is a new Class A design with enough current delivery and available voltage (14V peak & 700mA peak) to drive any modern headphone and equally capable of driving even the most difficult line inputs (e.g. 600 Ohm matched transformer coupled Pro-Audio).
  
 As such there is no Headphone Amplifier that could be removed, if a Headphone is connected the line outputs are disconnected and muted and the same single stage now drives the Headphones. Equally, the  choice between Transistor or Tube for the key amplifying stage applies equally to line outputs and headphones.
  
 We hope this clarifies this part of the design somewhat. As said,it is a ground-up new design - it is unlikely to arrive before November. For the moment, this is as much as we can say - we are trying to walk the line between not getting you all too excited, yet answer some of the questions posed without giving too much away. Not easy.


----------



## Mach3

That's great news, in time for a nice Christmas present


----------



## Franatic

It's nice to hear the latest on the Pro. I am very excited by the new plan that came off the drawing board.
  
 The original price estimate was  ~$1500. Are we still in that range or has that moved significantly with the redesign?
  
 I would love to see it by the end of the year. Thanks for the update.


----------



## EVOLVIST

mach3 said:


> That's great news, in time for a nice Christmas present


 
  
 If you love yourself, more like Valentines Day, I'll bet.
  
 Remember, even with a final design, it has to go into production, soooooo....save up by Valentine's Day and wait it out.


----------



## JWahl

julez3c said:


> Disclaimer : I'm not a Schiit fanboy at all, never owned any of their products. (but I'm gonna receive a Regen in the coming days)
> 
> The launch of the Yggdrasil a couple months back, promising (and apparently really offering) REAL TRUE NATIVE PCM conversion for 2k$ and change may have rattled a bit our favorite Englanders (and German born designer in chief).
> USB interfaces have also progressed a lot these last few months (signal reclocking and impedance matching, see Uptone Regen for instance)
> ...




I'm kind of in the same boat. I like iFi products and the high value they present, but I'm also sold on buying an Yggy for my personal preferences. It's seems like it's really setting the bar below $3k at least. Probably more comparable to the AMR stuff though different flavor.

I don't doubt for a moment that iFi is capable of designing something competitive. It's more of a question of their future business plans. Because if they make it "too good" it might encroach on their AMR gear. At least on sound quality, not construction. And I think that's what makes designing the Pro series difficult, making it good, without invalidating their traditional high end.

Though to be honest, I'm partly curious of what an Yggy and ICan pro combo would sound like.


----------



## sdolezalek

Actually it is the new Schiit multi-bit version of the Gungnir DAC at $1,249.00 that probably becomes the price competitive target for the Pro.  Two very different design approaches, however.  Cannot wait to see what the final iFi Audio Pro looks and sounds like -- but it sounds as though we will all have to wait a few more months...


----------



## h1f1add1cted

sdolezalek said:


> Actually it is the new Schiit multi-bit version of the Gungnir DAC at $1,249.00 that probably becomes the price competitive target for the Pro.  Two very different design approaches, however.  Cannot wait to see what the final iFi Audio Pro looks and sounds like -- but it sounds as though we will all have to wait a few more months...


 

 If I'm not completly wrong, since the micro iDSD or now the micro iDAC2 you can switch to Bit-Perfect filter (which will come with the Pro iDSD too), which means to "turn off oversampling" and act like multibit / R2R DACs in NOS mode, like the iDSD measurements:
  

  
 If you compare with TDA, AD or PCM1704 multibit / R2R DACs the have the same treble roll-off like the iDSD or iDAC 2 if Bit-Perfect filter setting is on. Should mainly sounds pretty similar.


----------



## EVOLVIST

h1f1add1cted said:


> If I'm not completly wrong, since the micro iDSD or now the micro iDAC2 you can switch to Bit-Perfect filter (which will come with the Pro iDSD too), which means to "turn off oversampling" and act like multibit / R2R DACs in NOS mode, like the iDSD measurements:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




You know, this has always been my understanding of bit-perfect, but I've never thought about it in relation to R2R DACs.

I wonder if iFi can illuminate this.


----------



## sdolezalek

You have the additional complicating factor that if you upsample before the DAC, you can choose a less sloping filter as well as exactly where the cutoff starts (which theoretically is one potential benefit from DSD256 files).  The guys behind HQPlayer have done a lot of work with the iFi iDSD Micro and their upsampling software.


----------



## MLGrado

h1f1add1cted said:


> If I'm not completly wrong, since the micro iDSD or now the micro iDAC2 you can switch to Bit-Perfect filter (which will come with the Pro iDSD too), which means to "turn off oversampling" and act like multibit / R2R DACs in NOS mode, like the iDSD measurements:
> 
> 
> 
> If you compare with TDA, AD or PCM1704 multibit / R2R DACs the have the same treble roll-off like the iDSD or iDAC 2 if Bit-Perfect filter setting is on. Should mainly sounds pretty similar.


 
  
  
 Actually, in all cases the iDSD's Burr Brown dsd1793 is still partly a delta sigma DAC, so it is not like an R2R DAC  completely.  It DOES use discrete switches, though, for the upper 6 bits, much like an R2R DAC.  The rest, though, is handled by a third order delta sigma modulator, yes, even in bit perfect mode.  
  
 In bit perfect mode, the 8x, 4x, 2x  oversampling circuit that precedes the segment dac is bypassed.  So, if you send, say 96 khz signal in standard or min.phase mode, it is oversampled or upsampled x4 to 384khz.  The 384 khz signal and accompanying clock rate are sent to the segment dac for conversion.  If you send 96 khz in bit-perfect mode, it stays untouched before the segment DAC.  So, instead of seeing 384 khz, the segment DAC will see the original 96khz signal.  
  
 So in bit-perfect you eliminate any potential quality loss that may arise from use of the oversampling circuit.  Also, you do get true bit-perfect conversion then, for the top 6 bits of the digital signal.
  
 It does sound very much like a 'true-PCM' DAC, but still, it isn't quite the same as a true multi-bit DAC.   iFi was looking for a DAC that provided real, DSP free DSD conversion, but were not willing to compromise on the sound of PCM.  The best DAC that met their requirements, that handled both formats as well as possible, was the Burr-Brown.  
  
  
 But, I agree, even though technically not quite the same, it does sound quite a bit like true PCM DACs.  And that is a very, very good thing, in my book.  
  
 ---------------------
  
 I would LOVE to see the new pro DAC available by Christmas.  That would be perfect.  But I am hoping at the latest early 2016.  I LOVE my iDSD Micro, and refuse to replace it with anything that isn't iFi.  I expect the new pro DAC to be an amazing product.


----------



## iFi audio

evolvist said:


> You know, this has always been my understanding of bit-perfect, but I've never thought about it in relation to R2R DACs.
> 
> I wonder if iFi can illuminate this.


 
  
 Hi,
  
A Short History of Chipset Euphoria (nod to JK Galbraith readers 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)
  
 Very fitting in the current economic climate:
  

  
  
 In our book, firstly, R2R done properly takes a LOTTA work. Secondly, the statement 'Bit-Perfect Digital Filters' is a contradiction in terms; it only exists in sci-fi as it is a 'true oxymoron'1.
  
 Multi-Bit CAN be Bit-Perfect, but often oversampling and digital filtering is used, that cannot be defeated by the user. To us this not something we would implement.
  
 Further, while the mainstay of CD standard Audio, neither Multi-Bit nor Delta Sigma on their own are great for wider dynamic range coupled with higher sample rates.
  
 Multi-Bit systems struggle with distortion at low signal levels. The TDA1543 from Philips which is found in many Non-Oversampling Multi-Bit DACs for example is show to have at best 14.5 Bit linearity at low levels with worst case less than 13 Bit linearity. This is not even really good enough for CD.
  
 By comparison, Delta Sigma DACs can have essentially distortion at low levels that are equal to the noise (read no extra distortion). But Delta Sigma has its own limitations due to supersonic noise, slew limiting and lack of resolution to handle large dynamic steps.
  
 We feel that splitting the job between Muti-Bit for the high-level parts (where it is most capable) and Delta Sigma for low-levels is the best choice when attempting to go past the CD-Limit of dynamic range. If we need to play back CD, well, the TDA1541A or UDA1305T are still our preferred choice, but they are limited to 16 Bit performance.
  
  
 Cheers.
  
  
1 A 'true oxymoron' (as opposed to an 'oxymoron') - is "something that is surprisingly true, a paradox2." 
2 A paradox - the Greek roots translate to “contrary opinion,” and when two different opinions collide in one statement or action, that's *paradoxical*.


----------



## EVOLVIST

So, I'm guessing that the new iUSB 3.0 is going to pair nicely with the iDSD Pro.

Just my way of shamelessly bumping my favorite thread.


----------



## technobear

evolvist said:


> So, I'm guessing that the new iUSB 3.0 is going to pair nicely with the iDSD Pro.
> 
> Just my way of shamelessly bumping my favorite thread.




I'm guessing that the Pro won't need any such accessory because it's all in the box already.


----------



## EVOLVIST

technobear said:


> I'm guessing that the Pro won't need any such accessory because it's all in the box already.


 
  
 That would be great, yet it won't stop me from getting the iUSB 3.0 (and I suspect that would be the same for you). I imagine the end result, if you're correct, would be akin to chaining two REGENS together, yet without all of the fuss associated with the REGEN.
  
 No telling when the iDSD Pro will come out, so might as well enjoy the iUSB 3.0 in the meantime.


----------



## Franatic

evolvist said:


> That would be great, yet it won't stop me from getting the iUSB 3.0 (and I suspect that would be the same for you). I imagine the end result, if you're correct, would be akin to chaining two REGENS together, yet without all of the fuss associated with the REGEN.
> 
> No telling when the iDSD Pro will come out, so might as well enjoy the iUSB 3.0 in the meantime.


 
 You have not gotten your Regen yet, I gather. Did you cancel it? I can vouch that it is a very impressive upgrade for the micro. It has helped me to be patient in this drawn out development/regroup/redevelopment of the pro. I am curious whether the iusb 3.0 can be better. 
  
 Is the iusb 3.0 already available?  http://www.ttvjaudio.com/iFi_iUSB_3_0_p/ifi0000032.htm
 It doesn't mention availability............$400, not cheap.


----------



## EVOLVIST

franatic said:


> You have not gotten your Regen yet, I gather. Did you cancel it? I can vouch that it is a very impressive upgrade for the micro. It has helped me to be patient in this drawn out development/regroup/redevelopment of the pro. I am curious whether the iusb 3.0 can be better.
> 
> Is the iusb 3.0 already available?  http://www.ttvjaudio.com/iFi_iUSB_3_0_p/ifi0000032.htm
> It doesn't mention availability............$400, not cheap.




I came close to getting a Regen, but I decided not to drop the money. Then lo and behold iFi has a new product, but without buying all of these little components to get the juice out of the Regen.

On another note, though, I'm now running Windows Server 2012 r2 in perhaps a prep to get AO. The jury is still out on the OS, itself; still, it's a bit of a different animal. It's kind of a cool experiment.


----------



## Franatic

evolvist said:


> I came close to getting a Regen, but I decided not to drop the money. Then lo and behold iFi has a new product, but without buying all of these little components to get the juice out of the Regen.
> 
> On another note, though, I'm now running Windows Server 2012 r2 in perhaps a prep to get AO. The jury is still out on the OS, itself; still, it's a bit of a different animal. It's kind of a cool experiment.


 
 Go get AO, what are you waiting for? Read the reviews, they are unanimously positive. I can say it makes a tremendous difference in my system, especially when run in core mode.
  
 I am very interested to hear comparisons between the Regen and iusb 3.0. Hopefully there will be someone who has both....it won't be me.
  
 I am finding many, many great tweaks as I wait............and wait, for the Pro.


----------



## technobear

franatic said:


> evolvist said:
> 
> 
> > I came close to getting a Regen, but I decided not to drop the money. Then lo and behold iFi has a new product, but without buying all of these little components to get the juice out of the Regen.
> ...




Sorry if I'm being dense but what is 'AO'?


----------



## JootecFromMars

technobear said:


> Sorry if I'm being dense but what is 'AO'?


 
  
 Before anyone says, "Google it." which is currently a trend on other ifi threads, I just have. It's a website that sells washing machines, freezers, cookers, TVs etc.


----------



## EVOLVIST

technobear said:


> Sorry if I'm being dense but what is 'AO'?




Audiophile Optimizer. It's been really difficult for me to drop cash on software, but since I got a new machine and the OS I picked up for a song (that is, free, though the company I work for), I might as well try AO.



jootecfrommars said:


> Before anyone says, "Google it." which is currently a trend on other ifi threads, I just have. It's a website that sells washing machines, freezers, cookers, TVs etc.




That, too! Haha.

Just think. All of this in preparation for the iDSD Pro, which I hope will be end-game for me.


----------



## Totsipaki

evolvist said:


> Audiophile Optimizer. It's been really difficult for me to drop cash on software, but since I got a new machine and the OS I picked up for a song (that is, free, though the company I work for), I might as well try AO.
> That, too! Haha.
> 
> Just think. All of this in preparation for the iDSD Pro, which I hope will be end-game for me.


 

 You' re not the only one counting on this dac to be bro..


----------



## velvetx

Hmm Audio Optimizer for windows 2012 server. Interesting that they decided to put this for Windows 2012 Server rather than on say for the mainstream windows users such as 7,8, and 10. Seems kind of wasteful considering if you have a windows 2012 server machine this would be dedicated for music and couldn't be used efficently to game on. Just my thoughts.


----------



## gr8soundz

velvetx said:


> Hmm Audio Optimizer for windows 2012 server. Interesting that they decided to put this for Windows 2012 Server rather than on say for the mainstream windows users such as 7,8, and 10. Seems kind of wasteful considering if you have a windows 2012 server machine this would be dedicated for music and couldn't be used efficently to game on. Just my thoughts.


 
  
 That was my first thought as well. Not to mention Server 2012 has a huge upfront price plus yearly cost afterwards. Don't run it due to the costs but I believe the AO creator used 2012 because it has so few background services running to begin with (fewer services means less possible jitter).
  
 Did my own AO style optimizations in BIOS and Windows 8 but I still have 3x the services running compared to Server 2012. Would disable more but already had issues installing my iDSD Micro after the optimizations. I can hear some improvements afterwards but hard to say how much more it would improve if running 2012 (plus I built fanless PC from scratch just for sound processing so that helps as well).
  
 Imo, if your running 2012 and AO, its likely gonna be on a dedicated machine. Trying to game and have THE cleanest audio on one machine may not be the most feasible thing.


----------



## h1f1add1cted

I would always go for Daphile (http://www.daphile.com/) as audio headless audiophile OS, it works with XMOS USB class 2.0 DACs very well incl. the iFi micro iDSD or Gustard U12 and provides a perfect solution with nice smartphone apps to control the music playback.


----------



## iFi audio

Helicarrier 1 - request permission for take-off  
 Copy helicarrier 1, permission granted...
  

  
 and
  

  
  
 See you at the Canjam. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 (pls excuse the rough pics - but they are taxiing on the runway for Denver)
   
Helicarrier 2 is still in the hangar - it won't be at RMAF. Crew chief Thorsten and his team are working round the clock - the only thing that has remained the same is the name. All else has been radically changed.


----------



## tf1216

Take-off granted! That thing looks sick guys.


----------



## EVOLVIST

Thank you for the taste, iFi guys! This is what I've been saving all of my rubles for. Beautiful dreams!


----------



## EVOLVIST

velvetx said:


> Hmm Audio Optimizer for windows 2012 server. Interesting that they decided to put this for Windows 2012 Server rather than on say for the mainstream windows users such as 7,8, and 10. Seems kind of wasteful considering if you have a windows 2012 server machine this would be dedicated for music and couldn't be used efficently to game on. Just my thoughts.


 
  
 Running music on a computer you have to battle many intrinsic flaws with PCs to arrive at a sound that's the closest to analog as you can get. Therefore, for those that are inclined, like myself, deciding to run a dedicated machine is one of the first steps. I have since installed AO on my Server 2012 r2 machine, and it really is a gem. It was very much worth it to me.
  
 Now, with the iUSB3.0 and the iDSD Pro hitting the market (soon-ish) I feel the mix of software and hardware will get me much closer to what I've been searching for in computer audio.


----------



## Franatic

Big whoopty doo! Give us more. I will have to send a spy to canjam.
  
 The silver lining in all this waiting is that I continue to hone the rest of my system in preparation for the pièce de ré·sis·tance.
  
 I'm ready......................................bring it!!..............soon I hope.


----------



## velvetx

evolvist said:


> Running music on a computer you have to battle many intrinsic flaws with PCs to arrive at a sound that's the closest to analog as you can get. Therefore, for those that are inclined, like myself, deciding to run a dedicated machine is one of the first steps. I have since installed AO on my Server 2012 r2 machine, and it really is a gem. It was very much worth it to me.
> 
> Now, with the iUSB3.0 and the iDSD Pro hitting the market (soon-ish) I feel the mix of software and hardware will get me much closer to what I've been searching for in computer audio.


 
  
 I am definitely excited about new products coming out that seem to progress the computer audiophile market but I also don't want to lose sight of what it does to the sound.  In the past I have thought that some cables don't necessarily really do what they claim and it's all smoke and mirrors.  Definitely not saying that is always the case but I am very cautious when it comes to these products that it doesn't warp the sound into something that really isn't there.
  
 That is what worries me when we talk about USB decrapifiers and whatnot.  So far I like Jason Stoddard from Schiit approach the best.  It may help and it may not (the wyrd).  This seems to be more of the truth than not.  I really hope these devices aren't just cleaning up a signal then leaving you wondering where that great sound finally attained went to.


----------



## grdlow

ifi audio said:


> Helicarrier 1 - request permission for take-off
> 
> 
> Copy helicarrier 1, permission granted...
> ...



helicarrier 1 = headphone amp?


----------



## EVOLVIST

grdlow said:


> helicarrier 1 = headphone amp?


 
  
 Gotta be. I'm sure of it. From what I've heard there's only the two items in the Pro Line: iCAN Pro & iDSD Pro. The iTube has already been integrated into both products.


----------



## NightDayAudio

there will be more than 2 products in the "pro" line... 
  
 USA distributor is telling us dealers going to RMAF that it is the Pro iCAN coming and Pro iDSD isn't quite ready for the show.... I hope that doesn't steal any thunder from iFi... I only comment now because they sort of announced it above...


----------



## EVOLVIST

nightdayaudio said:


> there will be more than 2 products in the "pro" line...
> 
> USA distributor is telling us dealers going to RMAF that it is the Pro iCAN coming and Pro iDSD isn't quite ready for the show.... I hope that doesn't steal any thunder from iFi... I only comment now because they sort of announced it above...




Nah, I don't think it steals any thunder from iFi. They've basically said that we would see the iCAN Pro first. Some of us follow this quite closely. 

But more than 2 products in the Pro Line? I can't imagine what those would be, unless we're talking totally new products from scratch. The iPhono appears to have been folded into the Retro 50. And the iTube into the other Pro Line models. Any hints? Haha.


----------



## Emerpus

evolvist said:


> Nah, I don't think it steals any thunder from iFi. They've basically said that we would see the iCAN Pro first. Some of us follow this quite closely.
> 
> But more than 2 products in the Pro Line? I can't imagine what those would be, unless we're talking totally new products from scratch. The iPhono appears to have been folded into the Retro 50. And the iTube into the other Pro Line models. Any hints? Haha.


 
 I was hoping something along the line of Pro Power (completely made up name) ... where it filters and conditions clean power into multiple IEC sockets (assuming the Pro iCAN and iDSD uses IEC) ... maybe integrate the functionality of the iUSB 3.0 into the Pro Power too. Nice and neat to have a stackable box feeding all the power and signal (ok, maybe not such good idea power & signal together) to the iDSD and iCAN.


----------



## technobear

emerpus said:


> evolvist said:
> 
> 
> > Nah, I don't think it steals any thunder from iFi. They've basically said that we would see the iCAN Pro first. Some of us follow this quite closely.
> ...




I think that if the iDSD Pro is to be a flagship product, the functionality of the iUSB3.0 must be built in.

What kind of flagship product requires the addition of a $400 widget to make it sound like a flagship?

People who bought the Retro Stereo 50 must already be mildly annoyed at the idea that it can be improved by adding an external widget. It's supposed to be an all-in-one so basically it's out of date already.

Very soon now most other DAC manufacturers will be adding this new USB technology to their products, just as they all added 'asynchronous' operation to replace the greatly inferior 'adaptive' mode.


----------



## iFi audio

technobear said:


> I think that if the iDSD Pro is to be a flagship product, the functionality of the iUSB3.0 must be built in.
> 
> What kind of flagship product requires the addition of a $400 widget to make it sound like a flagship?
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 Hi,
  
 Interesting points raised but we respectfully beg to differ, albeit slightly.
  
  
- I think that if the iDSD Pro is to be a flagship product, the functionality of the iUSB3.0 must be built in.
What kind of flagship product requires the addition of a $400 widget to make it sound like a flagship?
  
 Please bear with us but adding the "iUSB 3 Technology" makes only sense for DACs that are:
  
 1) USB Powered (for any function) - which includes many notionally self-powered, high-end DACs even ones that cost US$10k (see upcoming RMAF for ones that use the iUSB3.0).
  
 2) Lack galvanic isolation (so noise from the USB circuitry can enter the actual DAC/Clock DAC) - which is most DACs out there
  
 3) Have the clock system for Audio on the "dirty USB Side" rather than the "clean DAC Side" in terms of PCB Layout - again, most DACs out there are affected as USB Chip application notes invariably show the audio clocks on the same sheet as the USB Chip.
  
 We hope this sheds more light on what/who the micro iUSB3.0 is aimed at.
  
_This does not apply to the Pro iDSD. The iDSD Pro will have galvanic isolation and is fully self-powered. So the iUSB3.0 will not help much if any. Few DACs do this at any price. And to answer the next likely question, we have not snipped a trace to get galvanic isolation. _




  
  
  
  
- People who bought the Retro Stereo 50 must already be mildly annoyed at the idea that it can be improved by adding an external widget. It's supposed to be an all-in-one so basically it's out of date already.
  
 Its priorites are in a different direction for a different customer base. The Retro has tube amp, DAC, phono stage and headamp all under one chassis and comes with speakers. And the fact that it handles DSD512 means it is quite future-prooofed.
  
 The $400 iUSB Power* is for all iFi and non-iFi products. It improves the sound of US$10k DACs that use a USB connection see at RMAF for example. So yes it wll improve the Retro too.
  
  
- Very soon now most other DAC manufacturers will be adding this new USB technology to their products, just as they all added 'asynchronous' operation to replace the greatly inferior 'adaptive' mode.
  
 We accept other manufactures will cotton on - such is life and the nature of free-markets. But fear not. As we originally designed this stuff, we will continue to push the envelope while at the same time, trying to maintain the _same backwards and forwards modularity for iFi and non-iFi products_. eg ANC was developed by AMR for its future products - but it has been trickled-down to the iDAC2 and iUSB3.0.
  
  
 However, if you are referring specifically to "re-driving USB Inputs," this normally does not make much sense for inclusion in a DAC, as it does not remove the problem from _inside_ the DAC.
  
 If you place these electronics inside the DAC and power them on the same groundplane and with the same PSU as the USB Chip you have put the whole problem _back into_ the DAC.
  
 If you then start separating power supplies etc. et al until you have a situation similar to the iUSB 3 you are looking at major effort, which can be completely avoided by providing galvanic isolation and placing the clocks and other noise sensitive items on the "qiuet side."
  
 Because Bits are truly just Bits. As long as the USB circuitry spits out the right bits and cannot effect any clocks, power supplies etc. and as long as correct impedance USB Cables are used the USB System is quite "tweak proof" which is what we have done as much as we can across the board.
  
 Cheers.


----------



## Mr Creosote

While I agree that people expect and demand more and more thesedays, the Retro already has tube amp, DAC, headamp and phono stage. Nothing else like it on the market.
  
 The clean USB power is outside of the remit of the source box. I think that is a little excessive to expect it all.
  
 Do you also want the USB cable to be attached to the Retro?
  
 At this rate, you may as well ask iFi to come around to your house and change the tunes as remote control should also be handled by iFi.


----------



## money4me247

mr creosote said:


> While I agree that people expect and demand more and more thesedays, the Retro already has tube amp, DAC, headamp and phono stage. Nothing else like it on the market.
> 
> The clean USB power is outside of the remit of the source box. I think that is a little excessive to expect it all.
> 
> ...


 
 +1. the ifi pro should come with a professional DJ to press the next button.


----------



## iFi audio

It's Friday so here you go....  

  
 And a little background reading.
  
  
  


 The GE5670 is so good that it has become a standalone product for 6922 customers. The 'NOS 6922' valve/tube set will go live in the next few days.
  
 WARNING: despite the same 9-pin setup, because the pin outs are different, it is not a 'straight swap.' One needs special adapters which AMR/iFi developed:
  

 Last but not least, here is a sneak peak of the packaging.


----------



## EVOLVIST

ifi audio said:


> _This does not apply to the Pro iDSD. The iDSD Pro will have galvanic isolation and is fully self-powered. So the iUSB3.0 will not help much if any. Few DACs do this at any price. And to answer the next likely question, we have not snipped a trace to get galvanic isolation._ :wink_face:




This is the part that concerns me and/or has me confused, to wit, I have purchased the iUSB3.0 to use with my iDSD micro for now, but also for the future, because my wish is that the iDSD Pro is my end-game DAC. I understand galvanic isolation to an extent, but wouldn't the iUSB3.0 still have benefits as it is advertised not only to REclock, but also to REgenetrate and REbalance, which has what bearing on the clock? In essence, my understanding is that the iUSB3.0 is doing all of the magic before it reaches the DAC...so how does this not benefit the signal going to the DAC, no matter if the DAC utilizes galvanic isolation or not? One would still be influencing problems intrinsic to computer audio, like jitter, signal imbalance, etc., right, or is my whole understanding off (which it very well could be)?


----------



## technobear

Thank you iFi for the detailed reply. Lots of food for thought there.


----------



## Faber65

Very interesting!


----------



## EVOLVIST

ifi audio said:


> It's Friday so here you go....
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Sooooo...hmmmm...this is a new stand alone product, a box of two tubes/valves, including a white glove and top hat, for people who want to tube roll with iFi products and/or some other tube driven gear? Just replace the socket and all, because a lot of work went into making this socket better than your old skool one.

Maybe I see. Perhaps I don't see at all. 6922s certainly have a less flubby characteristic as opposed to other models. These are not the tubes in the Retro 50, but they ARE the ones in the iTube, yes?


----------



## PinoNL

Hmmm, this info makes the decision for a new dac/amp even harder. Especially if you like tubes, like I do...


----------



## technobear

evolvist said:


> Sooooo...hmmmm...this is a new stand alone product, a box of two tubes/valves, including a white glove and top hat, for people who want to tube roll with iFi products and/or some other tube driven gear? Just replace the socket and all, because a lot of work went into making this socket better than your old skool one.




It's not just a socket. It's an adaptor.


----------



## EVOLVIST

technobear said:


> It's not just a socket. It's an adaptor.




Well, yes, I didn't mean to imply that it was just another piece of plastic.


----------



## technobear

evolvist said:


> technobear said:
> 
> 
> > It's not just a socket. It's an adaptor.
> ...




No, what you seemed to be saying it that it 'replaces' the existing socket. It doesn't. It plugs into the existing 6922 socket.


----------



## bluesaint

Sorry if I missed it, but have IFI mentioned whether iDSD Pro will have dual 3pin XLR output?


----------



## technobear

To the right of this thread and at the top you will find an area called "Recent Images In This Thread".

In that area you will find a link called "View All".

There you will find a picture of the prototype.



Based on this image, it would seem reasonable to assume that the iDSD Pro will have XLR balanced outputs.


----------



## Jeff Y

The wait... Isreal.


----------



## iFi audio

evolvist said:


> Maybe I see. Perhaps I don't see at all. 6922s certainly have a less flubby characteristic as opposed to other models. These are not the tubes in the Retro 50, but they ARE the ones in the iTube, yes?


 
  
 Correct!
  
 Retros have 4 pcs of EL84X and 2 pcs of ECF82.
  
 iTUBE has 1 pc GE5670.


----------



## EVOLVIST

technobear said:


> To the right of this thread and at the top you will find an area called "Recent Images In This Thread".
> 
> In that area you will find a link called "View All".
> 
> ...




I'm betting the thing looks barely like that anymore. Still, you can't have a "Pro Model" without balanced XLR outputs. Going full balanced into my HP amp from an iFi product will be fantastic. Switching from SS to tubes/valves will make this the buy of the year. But which year is the question...


----------



## iFi audio

'Skin' says it is okay to show the Rear Panel  
 As this is very close to the production version, we are chuffed to divulge the rear panel.
  

  
  
*Rear Panel (Left to Right)*  
 Left (1):                                      4 x Inputs (1 x Balanced/XLR and 3 x RCAs)
 Middle (2):                                   1 x Outputs (Balanced & RCA)
 Right (3) lower:                             switch for 3.5mm and 6.3mm jack balanced/Single-Ended
 Right (4) upper:                            15v DC in (actually 9v to 18v DC) and DC loop through
                                                  Connector for Electrostatic module 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Yes, the Pro iCAN is a full line-stage


----------



## iFi audio

technobear said:


> No, what you seemed to be saying it that it 'replaces' the existing socket. It doesn't. It plugs into the existing 6922 socket.


 
  
 Hi,
  
 Correct, yes, it is a ceramic socket with gold-plated pins that is inserted 'in-between' the GE5670 and the tube socket on the pcb of the 6922* product.
  
 But on the iFi products such as the iTUBE and the Pro series, there is no need for the adapter. So the WE396A/GE5670/2C51 is inserted directly in.
  
  
*The GE5670 is a 'shorter' tube than the 6922. Hence, the GE5670+Adapter = the same height (give or take 1mm) as the 6922. So there should be no "max headroom" height restrictions.


----------



## Totsipaki

ifi audio said:


> Helicarrier 1 - request permission for take-off
> Copy helicarrier 1, permission granted...
> 
> 
> ...


 
 That's good news about the 2nd helicrrier Ifi!.. I can be patient.. But...  I am just crossing my fingers that the price is not among the things that have radically been changed..


----------



## zzzmonster

Will the iFi audio Pro iCAN have 12v trigger out? If it does not, would it be possible to add it in ?


----------



## iFi audio

zzzmonster said:


> Will the iFi audio Pro iCAN have 12v trigger out? If it does not, would it be possible to add it in ?


 
  
 Hi,
  
 Sorry, won't be in.
  
 Thanks.


----------



## bluesaint

ifi audio said:


> 'Skin' says it is okay to show the Rear Panel
> 
> 
> As this is very close to the production version, we are chuffed to divulge the rear panel.
> ...




What about the headphone output? Will it have both dual 3pin xlr (female socket) and single 4pin?


----------



## gr8soundz

bluesaint said:


> What about the headphone output? Will it have both dual 3pin xlr (female socket) and single 4pin?


 
  
 I think the iCan Pro will have those but (from other prototype pics) looks like the iDSD Pro might retain a single, 6.3mm output.
  
 Was hoping the iDSD would have balanced headphone outs but then the iCan might be redundant.
  
 Would like to know if both will have switchable tubes though especially the iDSD Pro's dac side?


----------



## EVOLVIST

gr8soundz said:


> Would like to know if both will have switchable tubes though especially the iDSD Pro's dac side?




Yes, to both models. Switchable.


----------



## bluesaint

gr8soundz said:


> I think the iCan Pro will have those but (from other prototype pics) looks like the iDSD Pro might retain a single, 6.3mm output.
> 
> Was hoping the iDSD would have balanced headphone outs but then the iCan might be redundant.
> 
> Would like to know if both will have switchable tubes though especially the iDSD Pro's dac side?



 


To me the whole point of PRO is to have to only use a single amp+dac unit. If there's no balanced headphone out, and requires me to use an external balanced amp, then it defeats the purpose. So I'm hoping i'm wrong and the idsd pro will have a balanced headphone output.


----------



## gr8soundz

bluesaint said:


> To me the whole point of PRO is to have to only use a single amp+dac unit. If there's no balanced headphone out, and requires me to use an external balanced amp, then it defeats the purpose. So I'm hoping i'm wrong and the idsd pro will have a balanced headphone output.


 
  
 I agree. Would much rather have a balanced headphone out on the iDSD Pro instead of having to stack components.
  
 Ifi is combining features of the iTube and iUSB into the Pro devices but, for whatever reason, is still keeping some dac and amp features separate.
  
 That's the reason I passed on the Retro 50. Despite combining so much into one box, the lack of balanced outputs seemed like a huge oversight.


----------



## iFi audio

bluesaint said:


> What about the headphone output? Will it have both dual 3pin xlr (female socket) and single 4pin?


 
  
 Hi,
  
 HP Connections on iCAN Pro:

 1 * XLR-4 Balanced
 2 * XLR-3 dual Mono Balanced
 2 * 6.3mm Jack (combo with XLR-3) as dual SE or dual Balanced Jacks
 2 * 3.5mm Jack (TRRS) as SE or Balanced with build in attenuation for IEM
  
 Cheers.


----------



## iFi audio

gr8soundz said:


> I think the iCan Pro will have those but (from other prototype pics) looks like the iDSD Pro might retain a single, 6.3mm output.
> 
> Was hoping the iDSD would have balanced headphone outs but then the iCan might be redundant.
> 
> Would like to know if both will have switchable tubes though especially the iDSD Pro's dac side?


 
  
 Hi,
  
 The iDSD Pro has the same arrangement to switch between Tube and solid-state. We seriously considered an XLR-4 Balanced HP out. However only one Headphone Out can be fitted mechanically. There are way more 6.3mm jack equipped headphones out there than Balanced XLR-4 ones. Had we fitted only XLR-4, all 6.3mm jack (or 3.5mm jack with adapter) headphones would have been unusable with the iDSD Pro. You can use a suitable adapter from the XLR Line Outs, output impedance is around 60 Ohm Balanced which will work well with many high-end headphones that could be sensibly equipped with XLR-4 (Magnetic Planars, High Impedance types).
  
 But really, the iDSD Pro focus is on DAC performance, the HP connection is merely an extra feature but is not a core focus.
  
 For serious headphone listening with real high-end headphones the iCAN Pro is recommended which can not only accommodate any standard and semi-standard headphone connection under sun (except Kobicon and similar oddballs).
  
 But the iCAN Pro has oodles more power (far too much for most), output level and a much greater Class A operation area, not to mention X-Bass (in 3 steps plus off) and 3D-Sound (again 3-steps + off). Yes, the AKG K-1000s work fine with these and they are driven their max! In other words, this puppy will give stratospherical headphone amplifiers sleepness nights.
  
 Cheers.


----------



## kurb1980

Curious what is the price point for the pro series line?  0-1k or 1k-2k? This excludes the iDSD Pro which I assume will be in the 1.5-2k range?


----------



## iFi audio

kurb1980 said:


> Curious what is the price point for the pro series line?  0-1k or 1k-2k? This excludes the iDSD Pro which I assume will be in the 1.5-2k range?


 
  
 Hi,
  
 Correct. The Pro range is US$1.5-2k. The nano and micro fill in below the <$1k sector.
  
 Thanks


----------



## grdlow

ifi audio said:


> Hi,
> 
> The iDSD Pro has the same arrangement to switch between Tube and solid-state. We seriously considered an XLR-4 Balanced HP out. However only one Headphone Out can be fitted mechanically. There are way more 6.3mm jack equipped headphones out there than Balanced XLR-4 ones. Had we fitted only XLR-4, all 6.3mm jack (or 3.5mm jack with adapter) headphones would have been unusable with the iDSD Pro. You can use a suitable adapter from the XLR Line Outs, output impedance is around 60 Ohm Balanced which will work well with many high-end headphones that could be sensibly equipped with XLR-4 (Magnetic Planars, High Impedance types).
> 
> ...



I know what I'm getting for Xmas


----------



## gr8soundz

ifi audio said:


> Hi,
> 
> HP Connections on iCAN Pro:
> 
> ...


 
  
 So the 3.5mm out can be switched to fully balanced (similar to Hifiman's 3.5mm)?
  


ifi audio said:


> Hi,
> 
> The iDSD Pro has the same arrangement to switch between Tube and solid-state. We seriously considered an XLR-4 Balanced HP out. However only one Headphone Out can be fitted mechanically. There are way more 6.3mm jack equipped headphones out there than Balanced XLR-4 ones. Had we fitted only XLR-4, all 6.3mm jack (or 3.5mm jack with adapter) headphones would have been unusable with the iDSD Pro. You can use a suitable adapter from the XLR Line Outs, output impedance is around 60 Ohm Balanced which will work well with many high-end headphones that could be sensibly equipped with XLR-4 (Magnetic Planars, High Impedance types).
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks for the detailed response.
  
 I understand there's only so much room inside the iDSD. Does that also mean it will only have 1 tube compared to 2 on the iCan? Will that single tube only work through the 6.3mm out or is it still switchable over the dual XLR outs (to work as a tube dac)?
  
 Also, will the iDSD have 3 steps of X-Bass and 3D? And will they still be tailored for speakers over the line outs (like my current iDSD Micro)?


----------



## bluesaint

ifi audio said:


> Hi,
> 
> The iDSD Pro has the same arrangement to switch between Tube and solid-state. We seriously considered an XLR-4 Balanced HP out. However only one Headphone Out can be fitted mechanically. There are way more 6.3mm jack equipped headphones out there than Balanced XLR-4 ones. Had we fitted only XLR-4, all 6.3mm jack (or 3.5mm jack with adapter) headphones would have been unusable with the iDSD Pro. You can use a suitable adapter from the XLR Line Outs, output impedance is around 60 Ohm Balanced which will work well with many high-end headphones that could be sensibly equipped with XLR-4 (Magnetic Planars, High Impedance types).
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 Hi, are you saying the rear output meant for xlr interconnect have the same output performance as the front headphone output and therefore can use a xlr gender change adapter without any sound quality difference?


----------



## EVOLVIST

gr8soundz said:


> So the 3.5mm out can be switched to fully balanced (similar to Hifiman's 3.5mm)?
> 
> 
> Thanks for the detailed response.
> ...




Of course I'm not iFi, but I would say the 2 tubes in the iDSD Pro would have to be switchable from the dual XLR outputs, given that one of the whole points is that if you're outputting to an external amp, via XLR, the design is that you impart SS or tubes to that signal and then to your cans. Otherwise, what's the point in switching from SS to tubes?*

In your case, inputting dual 3 pin XLR can jacks into the back of the box would net you results. I would take it that iDSD Pro would have some sort of preamp mode to use the volume knob while having your cans plugged into the back.

*Of course another major point is to switch between tubes and SS using the single-ended jack on the front... but I was just addressing your particular question about the XLR out.


----------



## iFi audio

gr8soundz said:


> So the 3.5mm out can be switched to fully balanced (similar to Hifiman's 3.5mm)?
> 
> 
> Thanks for the detailed response.
> ...


 
  
 Hi,
  
 To answer your questions:
  
 1) "So the 3.5mm out can be switched to fully balanced (similar to Hifiman's 3.5mm)?"
 - Yes
  
 2) "I understand there's only so much room inside the iDSD. Does that also mean it will only have 1 tube compared to 2 on the iCan? Will that single tube only work through the 6.3mm out or is it still switchable over the dual XLR outs (to work as a tube dac)?"
 - Two tubes. Actually, the exactly same circuit drives both Headphone and Line out.
  
 There is only one amplification stage, either directly connected to the DAC Chip or with Volume Control between them. For line out volume control is selectable, for headphone it is obviously always in use.
  
 3) "Also, will the iDSD have 3 steps of X-Bass and 3D? And will they still be tailored for speakers over the line outs (like my current iDSD Micro)?"
 - The iDSD Pro will not have 3D Sound nor X-Bass, its focus is to be the best DAC we can make, short of the AMR DP-777. The headphone section will be nice but notthe last word like the Pro iCAN.
  
 Cheers.


----------



## iFi audio

bluesaint said:


> Hi, are you saying the rear output meant for xlr interconnect have the same output performance as the front headphone output and therefore can use a xlr gender change adapter without any sound quality difference?


 
  
 Hi,
  
 The main difference is the higher output impedance, otherwise the same circuit drives Headphone and Line out.
  
 Cheers.


----------



## JootecFromMars

Really liking what I hear so far about the Pro range and the specification decisions made on the two announced models. Saving my pennies for the iDSD model initially. iCan later.


----------



## raybone0566

Any rumors or speculations on price range? I've owned two ifi amps in the past and enjoyed their sound. Thanks


----------



## iFi audio

raybone0566 said:


> Any rumors or speculations on price range? I've owned two ifi amps in the past and enjoyed their sound. Thanks


 
  
 Hi,
  
 The Pro range is US$1.5-2k. The nano and micro fill in below the <$1k sector. Won't finalise exactly until the launch.
  
 Thanks


----------



## Totsipaki

It is good news that the price has not radically changed ..upwards..   !  
  
 Another question I have is besides USB OTG (which I imagine the idsd pro will support) will there also be APTX Bluetooth and MQA support ? I mean I know that the first is very handy (not the best for quality though) but the second one would also be very useful ..If It ever takes off.. Tidal may support It..
  
 The main reason that made me sell my Mytek 192 to fund a new dac is future proofness besides hope for something even better..
  
 Thanx


----------



## zeissiez

Is ican pro fully balanced design in both tube-hybrid mode and solid state mode? When are they available?


----------



## gr8soundz

Seriously considering the iCan Pro: switchable tubes or solid-state, 3 steps X-bass and 3d, plus balanced headphone out.
  
 However, if using an SE dac over the RCA inputs, will the balanced headphone outputs still work?


----------



## h1f1add1cted

This should work, but your setup is not "fully" balanced from DAC to AMP. Only the AMP internal is balanced.


----------



## DougD

h1f1add1cted said:


> This should work, but your setup is not "fully" balanced from DAC to AMP. Only the AMP internal is balanced.


 
  
 I seem to have read a lot here and there about the advantages of balanced amps. Not much on the benefits of being balanced starting at the DAC. Is there a discussion of that somewhere ?


----------



## gr8soundz

There's a lot of info here about the Pro series considering they're both still in prototype phase.
  
 But I didn't see any mention of a phase splitter for the iCan.


----------



## iFi audio

gr8soundz said:


> Seriously considering the iCan Pro: switchable tubes or solid-state, 3 steps X-bass and 3d, plus balanced headphone out.
> 
> However, if using an SE dac over the RCA inputs, will the balanced headphone outputs still work?


 
  
 Hi,
  
 Yes, for the SE Inputs the signal is converted to balanced using a J-Fet non-negative feedback circuit, before being passed on to the balanced circuitry.
  
 Some backgrond information, the SE-Bal conversion only affects the inverted polarity, the positive polarity remains direct. So if using SE in and SE out the signal circuit is direct with a single stage, the same holds for BAL in and BAL or SE out, direct single stage circuit. Only with SE in and BAL out do we add the essential signal inversion for the negative polarity of the balanced signal.
  
 Cheers


----------



## iFi audio

zeissiez said:


> Is ican pro fully balanced design in both tube-hybrid mode and solid state mode? When are they available?


 
  
 Hi,
  
 Yes, fully-balanced in both tube and Solid-State modes.
  
 Available Q4 2015, most likely November.
  
 Thanks


----------



## iFi audio

gr8soundz said:


> So the 3.5mm out can be switched to fully balanced (similar to Hifiman's 3.5mm)?
> 
> 
> Thanks for the detailed response.
> ...


 
  
 Hi,
  
  
 So the 3.5mm out can be switched to fully balanced (similar to Hifiman's 3.5mm)?
  
 - Yes.
  
  
 I understand there's only so much room inside the iDSD. Does that also mean it will only have 1 tube compared to 2 on the iCan? Will that single tube only work through the 6.3mm out or is it still switchable over the dual XLR outs (to work as a tube dac)?
  
 - Two tubes. Actually, the exactly same circuit drives both Headphone and Line out. There is only one amplification stage, either directly connected to the DAC Chip or with Volume Control between them. For line out volume control is selectable, for headphone it is obviously always in use.
  
  
 Also, will the iDSD have 3 steps of X-Bass and 3D? And will they still be tailored for speakers over the line outs (like my current iDSD Micro)?
  
 - iDSD Pro will not have 3D sound nor X-Bass, it focus is to be the DAC we can make, short of the AMR DP-777. First and foremost,it is a seriously nice DAC.The Pro iCAN is the one to feature this.
  
 Cheers


----------



## EVOLVIST

Does that include the iDSD Pro, or just the iCAN Pro in maybe November? 



ifi audio said:


> Hi,
> 
> Yes, fully-balanced in both tube and Solid-State modes.
> 
> ...


----------



## gr8soundz

Thanks so much @iFi audio for the super-detailed replies. Think the iCan Pro will be THE amp I've been waiting for.
  
 Still wish the iDSD Pro had balanced outs and XBass/3D though, especially with the the new iUSB3 tech inside. Would be nice to have one box do it all (the Retro 50 was close).
  
 However, if both the iCan and iDSD are $1500-2K each, I doubt many will (or can) buy both (not to mention the redundant tubes).


----------



## EVOLVIST

gr8soundz said:


> Thanks so much @iFi audio for the super-detailed replies. Think the iCan Pro will be THE amp I've been waiting for.
> 
> Still wish the iDSD Pro had balanced outs and XBass/3D though, especially with the the new iUSB3 tech inside. Would be nice to have one box do it all (the Retro 50 was close).
> 
> However, if both the iCan and iDSD are $1500-2K each, I doubt many will (or can) buy both (not to mention the redundant tubes).


 
  
 The iDSD will/does have balanced outputs. iFi hasn't intimated otherwise. And I don't think the tubes would be redundant in a bundle of the iCAN Pro and the iDSD Pro. One could either have the tubes working on the iCAN only, or the iDSD Pro only, or in both, together, making a total of 4 actives tubes, doing what tubes do. Being fully balanced, that's two tubes per channel, across both devices, if you're inclined to listen that way.
  
 If one were to buy a DAC with 4 tubes, and a headphone amp with 8 tubes, which of the tubes then would be redundant? (because there are some DACs and amps that have just that many). None of them. They all add to the sound.


----------



## gr8soundz

evolvist said:


> The iDSD will/does have balanced outputs. iFi hasn't intimated otherwise. And I don't think the tubes would be redundant in a bundle of the iCAN Pro and the iDSD Pro. One could either have the tubes working on the iCAN only, or the iDSD Pro only, or in both, together, making a total of 4 actives tubes, doing what tubes do. Being fully balanced, that's two tubes per channel, across both devices, if you're inclined to listen that way.
> 
> If one were to buy a DAC with 4 tubes, and a headphone amp with 8 tubes, which of the tubes then would be redundant? (because there are some DACs and amps that have just that many). None of them. They all add to the sound.


 
  
 I meant balanced headphone outs on the iDSD. IFi already confirmed it won't have that feature (only the iCan will).
  
 The combined 4 tubes makes sense though (didn't think about that).
  
 May be a moot point for me though. Doubt I can afford to spend $3-4K for both (even $1500 for one would be a stretch for me).


----------



## bluesaint

gr8soundz said:


> I meant balanced headphone outs on the iDSD. IFi already confirmed it won't have that feature (only the iCan will).
> 
> The combined 4 tubes makes sense though (didn't think about that).
> 
> May be a moot point for me though. Doubt I can afford to spend $3-4K for both (even $1500 for one would be a stretch for me).


 
 Same boat as you.  My plan is to get the iDSD pro first, and use a female to female XLR adapter to utilize the balanced lineout.  As per IFI, the same circuit driving the headphone output drives the balanced line out, so depending how well that sounds well determine whether icanPro is needed.


----------



## technobear

bluesaint said:


> gr8soundz said:
> 
> 
> > I meant balanced headphone outs on the iDSD. IFi already confirmed it won't have that feature (only the iCan will).
> ...




...but remembering that, as stated in this post:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/702376/ifi-audio-pro-desktop-line-discussion-thread/780#post_11957770

the output impedance from the XLRs is about 60 ohms. 

That may 'colour' the result somewhat (which could be good or bad depending on the headphone).


----------



## gr8soundz

bluesaint said:


> Same boat as you.  My plan is to get the iDSD pro first, and use a female to female XLR adapter to utilize the balanced lineout.  As per IFI, the same circuit driving the headphone output drives the balanced line out, so depending how well that sounds well determine whether icanPro is needed.


 
  
 Already have the iDSD Micro which is pretty good plus has xbass and 3d but still no balanced headphone out.
  
 Have a balanced headphone amp on order but now thinking I may cancel it and use the funds toward the iCan Pro first. Been wanting a tube amp (or dac) for a while and being able to switch the tubes on/off would make for a more versatile setup.


----------



## iFi audio

evolvist said:


> Does that include the iDSD Pro, or just the iCAN Pro in maybe November?


 
  
 Hi,
  
 Pro iDSD to be out end of this year. We are trying to make it for December but really close. January is most likely.
  
 Cheers.


----------



## technobear

Question for iFi

Will it be possible to stack the iDSD Pro and the iCAN Pro?

I'm wondering because of the warmth generated by the valves/tubes and by the class A circuitry.

Also, if they can be stacked, will you be including a suitable short XLR cable pair to link them (like the Schiit PYST XLR).

Perhaps there could be a bundle deal of some kind here.


----------



## iFi audio

technobear said:


> Question for iFi
> 
> Will it be possible to stack the iDSD Pro and the iCAN Pro?
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi
  
 Yes, and also later iRACK Pro.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Cabling isnt a concern as we do this with existing iRACK.  Just make sure not to block the existing vent slots.
  
 The heat wont be excessive- as with the iTUBE, it is warm to touch. Not Icarus levels of warmth!
   
 

 Cheers.


----------



## Acquire

I'm curious how this setup will compare to the Retro Stereo 50 for headphones? Ignoring the obvious lack of XLR outputs on the Retro.  Just focusing on the 1/4" and 3.5mm output. One thing I like about the Retro is that it's a dac/amp combo.


----------



## Thorbee

Just curious may have already been answered, but will there definitely be a remote for the volume control on the iDSD pro?


----------



## EVOLVIST

I was actually a little surprised that I didn't hear that much about the iCAN Pro coming out of the RMAF. 

What I heard was all very good, though, accept for the part about the volume knob getting nicked? What?


----------



## rickyleelee

They don't advise with everyone. show coverage is usually of the heavy advertisers. One magazine I heard is so professional about it they send their advertising guy ahead of their reviewers coming around at a show. Just the way of the world. The magazines got to eat I suppose.


----------



## semeniub

Some info in this article about what iFi showed at the recent RMAF:
  
 http://parttimeaudiophile.com/2015/10/15/rmaf-2015-ifi-you-fi-we-all-fi/


----------



## EVOLVIST

> DC iPurifier ($119). This is an inline RF noise-cancellation filter, designed to slip between the wall wart’s barrel and the connector on the back of your wall-wart powered device. Four different connector versions/sizes will be available in November.


 
  
 Now _this_ is really interesting. I wonder if iFi can comment on this, or if it's too early. So, this goes between your device's plug and the wall jack, I take it.


----------



## semeniub

evolvist said:


> Now _this_ is really interesting. I wonder if iFi can comment on this, or if it's too early. So, this goes between your device's plug and the wall jack, I take it.


 

 Agreed. I could use at least 10 of these...


----------



## Franatic

evolvist said:


> Now _this_ is really interesting. I wonder if iFi can comment on this, or if it's too early. So, this goes between your device's plug and the wall jack, I take it.


 
 ifi is catching up(surpassing??) with the competion. I have an sbooster ultra connected between my dc supply and my Regen. So a dc ipurifier and an iusb3.0 would replace these. They are too late for me with those.
  
 What I really want is the idsd pro........................and it is quiet on that front.....................still waiting.............and waiting


----------



## EVOLVIST

franatic said:


> ifi is catching up(surpassing??) with the competion. I have an sbooster ultra connected between my dc supply and my Regen. So a dc ipurifier and an iusb3.0 would replace these. They are too late for me with those.
> 
> What I really want is the idsd pro........................and it is quiet on that front.....................still waiting.............and waiting


 
  
 They are creating all of these products to cater to their market, of course, but also dipping to other markets, which is good business practice. If iFi can create a product that makes your existing non-iFi DAC better, or your other gear, or what have you, that's pretty clever. I've been tempted to actually break out some other DACs I have laying around: a Cambridge DacMagic+ and an Aune T1, to see what sort of sound I get from the iUSB3.0.
  
 This DC iPurifier sounds pretty slick. I'd like to see the specs.
  
 But yeah, the iDSD Pro. In perspective, though, they've made pretty fast work of it, considering it was announced in January 2014, and got an all-new overhaul in the middle of all of that. At that time they were still working on iDSD Micro.
  
 We're seeing the end of our wait, though. I feel sorry for all of the Yggy users now. All 5 of them, since the thing is on perpetual backorder.


----------



## iFi audio

Hi,  As previously leaked to your 'Pro' guys:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/784809/ifi-nos6922-valve-tube-upgrade-set-new-product-announcement
  
  
  
*NOS 6922 upgrade valve set*

*‘Grade A’ GE5670 with special iFi adapter*



 Southport, UK – 16th October 2015
  
*The premium version that sits above the 6922*
 At iFi, given the AMR connection, we research the history of valves. Delving into the archives, we unearthed the GE5670 for the micro iTUBE, a tube buffer. The response was such that we had to make the GE5670 a standalone product for all 6922-based equipment.

 Full details on the iFi website:
Accessory
  
  
 As you all know, this is what is in the heart of the Pro iCAN and Pro iDSD (1 pair per machine).
  
  
  
 Cheers


----------



## diamondears

ifi audio said:


> Hi,  As previously leaked to your 'Pro' guys:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/784809/ifi-nos6922-valve-tube-upgrade-set-new-product-announcement
> 
> ...



Would there be a pro iTUBE?


----------



## iFi audio

diamondears said:


> Would there be a pro iTUBE?


 
  
 Hi.
  
 Made redundant because we incorporated the iTUBE into the iCAN and iDSD respectively. They both share the same Tube/Solid-State platform. This was part of the fundamental re-design. Each machine features 2 x GE5670s inside.
  
 So people don't need to buy the iTube.
  
 Cheers.


----------



## EVOLVIST

Congrats, iFi, on a new product launch! Great stuff!


----------



## diamondears

ifi audio said:


> Hi.
> 
> Made redundant because we incorporated the iTUBE into the iCAN and iDSD respectively. They both share the same Tube/Solid-State platform. This was part of the fundamental re-design. Each machine features 2 x GE5670s inside.
> 
> ...



I'm thinking just a buffer in between current micro iDSD (or any DAC) and a preamp for speaker rig. So cheaper than pro iDSD but better than the micro iTUBE.


----------



## h1f1add1cted

@iFi audio
  
 Any comments on the optinal STAX Energiser - any current specs, pricing, shipping date 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 ?


----------



## iFi audio

diamondears said:


> I'm thinking just a buffer in between current micro iDSD (or any DAC) and a preamp for speaker rig. So cheaper than pro iDSD but better than the micro iTUBE.


 
  
 Hi,
  
 Pro iCAN is also a full-on line stage 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 TBH, the micro iTube is very nice. Its limitation is just the one set of inputs/outputs.
  
 Cheers.


----------



## diamondears

ifi audio said:


> Hi,
> 
> Pro iCAN is also a full-on line stage :wink_face:
> 
> ...



Yes, it is. I have 2 micro iTUBEs. 

So the pro iCAN have a line out too?


----------



## diamondears

ifi audio said:


> Hi,
> 
> 
> So the 3.5mm out can be switched to fully balanced (similar to Hifiman's 3.5mm)?
> ...




3D on the pro iDSD would have been nice for speakers use, just like the micro iDSD. 

Can the pro iCAN's tube sound be accessed thru speakers?


----------



## technobear

diamondears said:


> Can the pro iCAN's tube sound be accessed thru speakers?




You've been skipping pages! :rolleyes:

Here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/702376/ifi-audio-pro-desktop-line-discussion-thread/765#post_11950240


----------



## diamondears

technobear said:


> You've been skipping pages! :rolleyes:
> 
> Here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/702376/ifi-audio-pro-desktop-line-discussion-thread/765#post_11950240



Ha...yes I am. Thanks for that link. Can't wait for this then...


----------



## diamondears

Let's say I'm not going to use headphones, only speakers, and I have a pro iDSD...what benefit would I get from the pro iCAN? Additional tubes, XBass and 3D, correct? Anything else?


----------



## technobear

diamondears said:


> Let's say I'm not going to use headphones, only speakers, and I have a pro iDSD...what benefit would I get from the pro iCAN? Additional tubes, XBass and 3D, correct? Anything else?




Analogue inputs 

More components in the signal path :rolleyes:

A bigger leccy bill


----------



## diamondears

technobear said:


> Analogue inputs
> 
> More components in the signal path :rolleyes:
> 
> A bigger leccy bill



Thanks. I knew it...

So is the pro iCAN on schedule? Next month?


----------



## Vartan

_See more at_: http://headphone.guru/canjam-at-rmaf-2015-show-report/


----------



## Mach3

ifi audio said:


> Hi.
> 
> Made redundant because we incorporated the iTUBE into the iCAN and iDSD respectively. They both share the same Tube/Solid-State platform. This was part of the fundamental re-design. Each machine features 2 x GE5670s inside.
> 
> ...


 
 If the iCAN Pro & iDSD Pro both share the 2 x GE5670s, is there a purpose for one to own the iCAN pro if they've already purchase the iDSD Pro?


----------



## technobear

mach3 said:


> ifi audio said:
> 
> 
> > Hi.
> ...




Didn't we just answer this one page back? :rolleyes:

What we know so far...

The iCAN Pro has balanced headphone outputs.

The iDSD Pro has balanced line level outputs but only single ended headphone outputs.

The iCAN Pro will have a superior headphone amp to the one in the iDSD Pro. No more detail than that.

Also iCAN Pro features XBASS, 3D and has 3 extra analogue single ended inputs plus balanced and single ended outputs so can function as a full preamp to which you can connect your iPhono, tuner, cassette deck, etc.

Interestingly it would appear they both have remote volume control. That could lead to some amusing moments.


----------



## diamondears

technobear said:


> Didn't we just answer this one page back? :rolleyes:
> 
> What we know so far...
> 
> ...



Is it too late to request/appeal to iFi to put 3D and on the pro iDSD? This would benefit a lot of speakers users.


----------



## diamondears

A pro iTUBE is still a good idea IMO. Maybe a pair, 3 or even 4 tubes, replaceable, tube-rolling capable, with multiple gain options to "season" the tube effect. And with 3D and Digital Antidote Plus.


----------



## EVOLVIST

Hey iFi... can you disclose what the max wattage the iCAN and iDSD Pros eats up, both with tubes and SS?


----------



## KotBegemot

technobear said:


> To the right of this thread and at the top you will find an area called "Recent Images In This Thread".
> 
> In that area you will find a link called "View All".
> 
> ...


 

 no optical input?!


----------



## KotBegemot

ifi audio said:


> 'Skin' says it is okay to show the Rear Panel
> As this is very close to the production version, we are chuffed to divulge the rear panel.
> 
> 
> ...


 

 No optical input? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 bummer......


----------



## technobear

kotbegemot said:


> ifi audio said:
> 
> 
> > 'Skin' says it is okay to show the Rear Panel
> ...




Why would the iCAN Pro have an optical input? It's a headphone amplifier, not a DAC.


----------



## technobear

kotbegemot said:


> technobear said:
> 
> 
> > To the right of this thread and at the top you will find an area called "Recent Images In This Thread".
> ...




I suspect the RCA input will contain an optical input.


----------



## h1f1add1cted

Like the regular micro iDSD, would make sense yes. But a separate port would be a better idea for such a device, if you want to connect one source with coax and one source with optical toslin and you want to switch the inputs a way easier. So let's wait for iFi Audio answer on this.
  
 And important it's still only a prototype.


----------



## technobear

I agree it would be better to have both separate.


----------



## iFi audio

evolvist said:


> Hey iFi... can you disclose what the max wattage the iCAN and iDSD Pros eats up, both with tubes and SS?


 
  
 The idle (no signal) power consumption with tubes is around 1.2A @ 15V or around 18W, of which around 4.5 Watt are tube heaters and the rest is almost exclusively the balanced, Class A output stage.


----------



## debjitg

I am a bit late in this thread and haven't gone through the entire thread. Please point if its already been discussed but I am interested to know approx release date for iDSD and iCAN pro.


----------



## Franatic

debjitg said:


> I am a bit late in this thread and haven't gone through the entire thread. Please point if its already been discussed but I am interested to know approx release date for iDSD and iCAN pro.


 
 Hi ifi...........it would be great to have an idea when we might see the iDSD Pro. I'm hoping it is in the next 3 months or so. I'm recommending several friends of mine hold off buying a DAC until the pro comes out......I'm waiting.


----------



## diamondears

ifi audio said:


> The idle (no signal) power consumption with tubes is around 1.2A @ 15V or around 18W, of which around 4.5 Watt are tube heaters and the rest is almost exclusively the balanced, Class A output stage.



Hi iFi,

Still no chance for pro iDSD to have 3D?

Cheers.


----------



## Trogdor

Hey guys, got to hear the "almost production" iCan PRO at the New York Audio Show with a pair of HE-1Ks, which was awesome since the HE-1K is my daily companion at home.

I'm not sure how much @IFi Audio wants to reveal, but I will say this: They have a real winner on their hand! My initial impressions were that the iCan PRO was a real step up from just driving the HE-1Ks out of the micro iDSD's headphone out. I love the left hand switch on the front. I'll leave at that until the unit gets formerly released! 

I do have one BIG complaint though: No iDSD PRO to complement it just yet! I think its borderline inhumane to feature the iCAN PRO without an iDSD PRO as well. Please, think of the children.


----------



## EVOLVIST

The children!!!


----------



## Allvey

Hey iFi,
  
 RE: iDSD Pro
  
 If you really want this product to shine (literally) I would let iDSD Pro’s soul to glow by keeping the tubes on the outside of the case.
  
 In case you don’t see it as “outside the box” then let the tubes inside but do keep a window à la (defunct) iTube Pro.


----------



## lextek

No photos from the show? Pricing?


----------



## Trogdor

lextek said:


> No photos from the show? Pricing?




Check here sometime today.


----------



## lextek

Very, nice.





trogdor said:


> Check here sometime today.


----------



## EVOLVIST

Two weeks and change, and nothing from iFi. It's the middle of November now. I wonder what's happening with the Pro line, specifically the reason most of us are in this thread.


----------



## technobear

The iCAN Pro's are probably on the same oh so slow boat from China as the Type 'A' iPurifier2's


----------



## raybone0566

technobear said:


> The iCAN Pro's are probably on the same oh so slow boat from China as the Type 'A' iPurifier2's


It's on the music direct website. I didn't see anything about pre-order though


----------



## Trogdor

evolvist said:


> Two weeks and change, and nothing from iFi. It's the middle of November now. I wonder what's happening with the Pro line, specifically the reason most of us are in this thread. :confused_face(1):




They are working hard to finalize it!


----------



## EVOLVIST

trogdor said:


> They are working hard to finalize it!




Well, this much, for certain, is never in doubt. iFi is one hardworking bunch of individuals. 

Trying to be patient as a consumer, though, is the difficult part. I have the money for the iDSD Pro burning a huge hole in my pocket.


----------



## Trogdor

evolvist said:


> Well, this much, for certain, is never in doubt. iFi is one hardworking bunch of individuals.
> 
> Trying to be patient as a consumer, though, is the difficult part. I have the money for the iDSD Pro burning a huge hole in my pocket.




I don't think the iDSD PRO is going to be out the same time as the iCAN PRO though? I could be wrong, but that's my understanding. Again, I do know they are very hard at work on developing both products. And since this is the "PRO" line, I rather they get them right than just get them out!


----------



## Thorbee

Still trying to find out if the iDSD Pro will have remote control volume or not


----------



## technobear

thorbee said:


> Still trying to find out if the iDSD Pro will have remote control volume or not




Does 'Search This Thread' not work for you?

http://www.head-fi.org/t/702376/ifi-audio-pro-desktop-line-discussion-thread/270#post_11195226

:rolleyes:


----------



## Thorbee

technobear said:


> Does 'Search This Thread' not work for you?
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/702376/ifi-audio-pro-desktop-line-discussion-thread/270#post_11195226


 

 I guess that's why I am a junior member here  I did actually see this at the beginning of the year but so much has changed with this model since then.....but thx for the answer, I hope.


----------



## Franatic

thorbee said:


> I guess that's why I am a junior member here  I did actually see this at the beginning of the year but so much has changed with this model since then.....but thx for the answer, I hope.


 
 Yes, much has changed. It is fairly obvious that ifi is in some sort of redesign of the idsd pro. They were very active on this thread up until around May, when a release seemed imminent. Since then they have become very passive and guarded in their interactions with their prospective customers on this thread. I have no idea now when the idsd pro might be released or where the current development is at.
  
 I don't know of anyone has seen a current prototype of the unit.


----------



## BrainFood

franatic said:


> I have no idea now when the idsd pro might be released or where the current development is at.


 
  
  Post from October 6th a few pages back:
  
  


ifi audio said:


> Hi,
> 
> Pro iDSD to be out end of this year. We are trying to make it for December but really close. January is most likely.
> 
> Cheers.


----------



## Franatic

Thanks Brainfood. I hope that comes about but it would be nice to get confirmation it is still on that track. ifi has been very quiet and the idsd has been delayed before.


----------



## Thorbee

franatic said:


> Yes, much has changed. It is fairly obvious that ifi is in some sort of redesign of the idsd pro. They were very active on this thread up until around May, when a release seemed imminent. Since then they have become very passive and guarded in their interactions with their prospective customers on this thread. I have no idea now when the idsd pro might be released or where the current development is at.
> 
> I don't know of anyone has seen a current prototype of the unit.




Thx Franatic, information much appreciated. In the beginning seemed it was the perfect fit for me but then, it was explained why the balanced out (4-pin) would not be included which was a good reason, none the least. So for me lack of HP balanced out certainly is not a deal breaker but the lack of remote volume would be that's why I was inquiring to see if that was still in the mix with all the changes, thx again.


----------



## DougD

franatic said:


> Thanks Brainfood. I hope that comes about but it would be nice to get confirmation it is still on that track. ifi has been very quiet and the idsd has been delayed before.


 
  
 I could be misreading the tea leaves, but I think the double-punch of Gumby and Yggy have really pushed the boundaries of quality and value for everybody, and finding a viable product space suddenly became a lot harder.


----------



## Maconi

So do we have any hints to a price-point? Is it going to be slightly more than the iDSD Micro or are we talking double the price?


----------



## gr8soundz

maconi said:


> So do we have any hints to a price-point? Is it going to be slightly more than the iDSD Micro or are we talking double the price?


 
  
 More like triple the Micro's price. iFi stated (weeks/months ago) price would be $1500-2000.


----------



## Maconi

gr8soundz said:


> More like triple the Micro's price. iFi stated (weeks/months ago) price would be $1500-2000.


 
 Ouch, good to know. Guess it's the Micro or bust for me lol.


----------



## gr8soundz

maconi said:


> Ouch, good to know. Guess it's the Micro or bust for me lol.


 
  
 Yeah, the Micro is still great (keeping mine) plus it will have some advantages even over the Pro model.
  
 The iDSD Pro won't have XBass and 3D like the Micro and it will still lack balanced headphone out just like the Micro. Both have dual internal dac chips as well.
  
 Biggest upgrades (afaik) with the Pro are the built in vacuum tube and balanced in/out (in the rear). Not sure if that will make it worth 3x the price of the Micro.
  
 I'm more impressed with the iCan Pro so far. Too bad iFi won't put a usb dac inside it.


----------



## Franatic

dougd said:


> I could be misreading the tea leaves, but I think the double-punch of Gumby and Yggy have really pushed the boundaries of quality and value for everybody, and finding a viable product space suddenly became a lot harder.


 
 Read this:
 http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/670-schiit-audio-yggdrasil-multibit-dac-review/
  
 Evidently this Yggy has raised the bar higher. I had looked at Schiit devices and had to reject them because they used C-Media drivers which would not work with Windows Server 2012 R2. That killed usage in my system. That is when I found ifi and have been very happy with this choice.
  
 This Yggy sounds very intriguing. However, it does not play dsd, which is a red flag for me. I want a dac that plays everything.....and is future proof.....and costs less than $2299. C'mon ifi, I believe you will slay this Schiit Yggy monster and Gumby too dammit, with your increased capabilities...... AND lower price.....AND superior sound quality. Bring it!!!
  
 The Schiity vs iffy war is on.


----------



## EVOLVIST

gr8soundz said:


> Yeah, the Micro is still great (keeping mine) plus it will have some advantages even over the Pro model.
> 
> The iDSD Pro won't have XBass and 3D like the Micro and it will still lack balanced headphone out just like the Micro. Both have dual internal dac chips as well.
> 
> ...




But I think you're missing a great deal of what the iDSD Pro will be about by stating it just has tubes and balanced IOs. In fact, we can take this quite a ways back, so let me distill what we know, and what should carry over into the final product.

 


iFi]
Originally Posted by [B]iFi audio[/B] 







































































































































































































































































[table][TR][tr][td][U][B]iDSD mini[/B][/U][/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][/TR][TR][td=colspan:2][B]Fully-Balanced DAC (USB/SPDIF/AES-EBU/Bluetooth)[/B][/td] [TD] [/TD] [TD] [/TD] [TD] [/TD][/TR][TR][td][I][B]Formats:[/B][/I][/td] [TD][I][B]44.1/48/88.2/96/176.4/192/352.8/384/705.6/768KHz PCM[/B][/I][/TD] [TD] [/TD] [TD] [/TD] [TD] [/TD][/TR][TR][td] [/td] [TD][I][B]2.8/3.1/5.6/6.2/11.2/12.4/22.4/24.8MHz DSD[/B][/I][/TD] [TD] [/TD] [TD] [/TD] [TD] [/TD][/TR][TR][td] [/td] [TD][I][B]DXD[/B][/I][/TD] [TD] [/TD] [TD] [/TD] [TD] [/TD][/TR][TR][td][I][B]Filter:[/B][/I][/td] [TD][I][B]PCM: Standard/Minimum Phase digital said:


> Gee, so you are redesigning the whole mini iDSD concept





 
[quote="iFi]
Originally Posted by *iFi audio* 

Hi,

In a word "yes".

*We do apologise for the later launch date but some things have happened that are bigger and better than what we had anticipated and led to our decision to make it a full re-design*. We gotta feed our OCD!

Only the Burr-Brown native DSD/PCM chipset and some of the digital section remains.

Therefore, one can deduce that the analogue section in particular, is getting an "extreme makeover".

*Even this flagship series is no longer called the mini...very radical indeed*

[/quote]


On 12-19-2014 we get this. It's no longer the "mini," and a total redesign was in order.



 
[quote="iFi]
Originally Posted by *iFi audio* 

*mini Pro series 'iDSD Pro' - the specifications*

(can the original poster change the title from "mini" to "Pro" desktop? :wink_face: )

Okay, okay - here you guys go.

To answer the above questions, (except for the casework), the micro is not a "super-size" of the nano, neither will the mini Pro series "iDSD Pro".


Originally the iDSD mini Pro  was set to use the same Generation 1.5 XMOS and CPU Core as the iDSD micro, but expanded to allow 4 DAC Chip's and with a different analogue stage. This would have given the iDSD headlining specs, including DSD512 and 768KHz PCM, but would have left it a little difficult to include in a number of scenarios.


But this the iFi flagship. Following on from the discussions with distributors, customers and professionals in the recording industry, we will instead use the iDSD Pro to develop the Generation 2 version of the platform. This includes a few, but significant adjustments in usability and a number of features targeted at the professional market, though they do have uses in domestic audio as well.


Key changes are:


*1) External Clock Synchronisation*
The iDSD Pro will allow the use of external clocks for USB and AES/EBU modes.


Options available are the use of the BNC socket as 10MHz atomic clock input (this affects all clocks and inputs).


For external sync either Wordclock via BNC or AES3 on the XLR input are supported. Finally the BNC can be configured as wordclock out (to make one iDSD Pro the "master" in a multi channel playback setup).


The wordclock synchronisation is mainly for professional use, but will also allow the iDSD to be used in multichannel playback at home, as for this all DACs MUST be synchronised.

The ability to add an external atomic (or other low-jitter) clock will cater to those who like to tweak their setups to the limit, as it replaces the internal crystal clock reference directly.




*2) USB linked Volume Control*
The iDSD mini will use a fully balanced (4-deck) Alps motorised Potentiometer as volume control. This volume control will be linked into the Master Volume control for the USB Device with a full feedback loop, meaning if you move the slider in Windows/Mac, the actual potentiometer rotates to match this and in reverse, adjust the volume and the slider moves. The adjustment will be highly precise so it matches across multiple units and is absolute - that is set several to -10dB and what you get is precisely -10dB.


The volume setting system used here is a derivation of the "flying faders" system used in Pro-Audio to automate mixes, but obviously has many uses outside pro-audio, especially if linked with the replay gain function, if replay-gain is applied to this volume control.


Of course, there will also be a handset to remote control the volume. And being able to set the Potentiometer explicitly to any position, we will include separate memories for volume settings for Headphone and Line out mode. So plug in your Headphones and the Volume returns to the last volume setting used when a headphone was connected, unplug it and the volume returns to that set for the line out. So an analogue Volume control with all the precision and comfort of a digital one. But none of the drawbacks such as losing Bits which the truncating signal etc.




*3) DSD decoding from SPDIF*
This is probably the most requested feature, simply put, the iDSD Pro will be able to receive DoP encoded DSD over the SPDIF [/quote]


On 01-06-2015 the beast changes to the "Pro." a special point of emphasis we should look at here, is that at this point iFi has not only redesigned, but also shifted focus to the pro audio arena. This does not exclude Hi-Fi heads, but it expands the horizons quite a bit. Read what they are doing here. Really read it.


 
[quote="iFi].
Originally Posted by *iFi audio* 

Hi,

As promised....please bear in mind that we can only discuss so much as we have to walk a fine line between informing our customers and not giving away our secret recipes. :wink_face: 

Kind regards

iFi Skunkworks.




*To filter actively or to filter passively, this is the question (part 1)*


Some interesting questions have been raised around the subject of the filter circuitry for the iDSD Pro and the amplification stages. It is a complex subject.

So please bear with us as we do our best to inform you on the course we have taken and the reasons behind.

There is a whole lotta tech speak to crunch through - and it may seem heavy going. So if you suffer from insomnia, you may wish to bookmark this.

Without further ado…



*Why filter the signal at all?*


First, we must understand that a DAC-Chip will produce substantial supra-sonic output (which we justly may call “digital distortion”) in addition to the Audio signal we want. Just how this looks like depends on many factors. Rather than looking all options, let's focus on the BB DSD chip we use in iFi products.


It has a core that runs normally at a speed of around 11.3MHz to 12.3MHz. This is a very high speed. This is the speed at which the elements in the core switch. As the process is switching, it creates higher frequency components reaching much higher than main switching frequency.


This switching is one of the processes that produces this noise outside the audio band, the others are related to sample theory and produces what is often called “images”. Simply said, the actual audio signal is “mirrored” around the sample rate in a frequency plot, hence the name mirror images.

 



Source: [COLOR=000080]http://defenseelectronicsmag.com/site-files/defenseelectronicsmag.com/files/archive/rfdesign.com/images/digitalpll-Figure03.jpg[/COLOR]


Most audio circuitry cannot handle such supra-sonic signals, they are too fast and cause distortion to our audio signal. So what we require with any DAC is a filter that so to speak “strains out” the unwanted noise and leaves the audio signal. And ideally it gets all the noise and leaves the audio totally untouched.


In the real world ideal filters do not exist. A filter that removes the supra-sonic noise will have impact on the audio range and will introduce either phase-response variation, transient-response variation or both.

 




Source: [COLOR=000080]http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/filter/fil82.gif[/COLOR]


We have to sail between the Scylla of insufficient filter selectivity (too much noise gets through) and the Charybdis of excessive filter impact on the audio (we filter out most noise and pad a lot of distortion the music). But filter to some degree we must, so we must chart a course that will hopefully take through instead being wrecked on rocks of Charybdis or sucked into the chaotic whirlpool of the Scylla.




_Next time: Part 2: How to filter Digital Audio_

[/quote]


on 02-13-2015 we get a little more insight on the thought process behind the iDSD Pro


 
[quote="iFi].
Originally Posted by *iFi audio* 

*To filter actively or to filter passively, this is the question (part 2)*

 

*How to filter digital audio*

If we exclude digital filters (which are a whole other can of worms), to create filters, we require electronic parts that change with frequency in predictable ways.


1. Simple Filter - goes so far

The simplest filters combine just a single resistor and either an inductor or a capacitor. The problem is that such simple filters are not very selective. They impact the signal little, but also do not do much for the noise.



Source: [COLOR=000080]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e0/1st_Order_Lowpass_Filter_RC.svg/2000px-1st_Order_Lowpass_Filter_RC.svg.png[/COLOR]


(see also: [COLOR=000080]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_filter#Passive_filters[/COLOR])


We normally need better selectivity than we can get that way.


2. Passive Filter - good in theory, not easy in practice

One way is to use combinations of multiple resistors with inductors and capacitors. This is called a passive filter.

With real capacitors and inductors such a filter can remain effective to as high as 100MHz. So it can very effectively filter not just the images but also the switching noise.



Source: [COLOR=000080]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0e/Lumped_elements_ladder_filter_order_4.svg/450px-Lumped_elements_ladder_filter_order_4.svg.png[/COLOR]


Quality inductors take space and cost money and it is often difficult to find inductors that do not cause substantial distortion themselves. This is why this method is rarely seen today, even though it approaches an ideal filter quite closely and of course was used in early generation digital equipment.


3. Active Filter - another way to skin a cat

The other way is to use an active filter. Here we only use resistors and capacitors and “simulate” inductors using amplification. This means we rely on the amplification function of the active element to shape the filtering.

- one key advantage other than getting rid of inductors is that active filters allow the designer much, much freedom in trade-offs between selectivity and filter impact on the signal.
- another advantage is that these filters are widely documented and are easily calculated and modelled.


Source: [COLOR=000080]http://www.sussex.ac.uk/Users/pjly20/ras100_clip_image002_0000.jpg[/COLOR]


(see also: [COLOR=000080]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_filter[/COLOR] )


There is a downside. Most of the common amplifier elements loose amplification as frequencies rise. Many audio Op-Amps will have no remaining gain at frequencies above a few MHz. So at very high frequencies the filter no longer filters as it should.


So such active filters are easier and cheaper to implement than adequate passive filters and can filter the so-called images well. But they struggle to filter the switching noise from the DAC as well, or indeed often at all.


*Decisions decisions, what is one to do?*

 
In the end it is the choice of the designer _how_ to make sure all the different requirements are met and how trade-offs between mutually exclusive requirements are arranged.


In the iDSD nano we rely only on passive filtering, but the filter selectivity is not as extreme as with other iFi DACs.

In the iDSD micro, iDAC2 micro and the DAC in the Retro Stereo 50 we use a combination of passive and active filtering, using very wide bandwidth Op-Amps.

In the iDSD Pro, budget/size constraints are less of an issue and thus we can implement a fully-passive filter.

Think of the nano iDSD as BMW M1, micro iDSD/iDAC2 as M3 and Pro iDSD as the M5.

Each has its own price and engine/performance characteristics to suit different users.

(As a small side note, as we develop our code in-house, we "remap" the onboard XMOS (among other things) to push them beyond the theoretical _read: datasheet specs_. As is evident from the  Quad-DSD256 and Octa-DSD512 on the iFi platform. So our M-line is beyond the factory version.)

Before you ask, for those car buffs among you, the BMW i8 is the reserve of AMR.

[/quote]


Then on 02-17-2015, even more insight.

 

[quote="iFi].
Originally Posted by *iFi audio* 

 

To Filter or to not Filter: Part 3







*An Op-Amp digression*

 
In our previous part 2 article, we mentioned the “O-Word” already, so let's digress a little.

The Op-Amp is represented by the Triangle with the + and – sign inside in the triangle in the active filter above.


When you read some advertising copy in high-end audio you may believe that Op-Amps are the latest and best thing since sliced bread and one might even believe some of the fellas using them invented them. But Op-Amp's are really old.


The first functional design is normally attributed to Karl D. Swartzel Jr. of Bell Labs in 1941 and was used in a Radar assisted Artillery director during World War 2.


The word “Operational Amplifier” for the type of amplifier circuit it embodies is documented in 1947 and the first “integrated op-amp”  using tubes was introduced in 1953


Historical timeline

*1941: A vacuum tube op-amp.* An op-amp, defined as a general-purpose, DC-coupled, high gain, inverting feedback [COLOR=000080]amplifier[/COLOR], is first found in [COLOR=000080]U.S. Patent 2,401,779[/COLOR] "Summing Amplifier" filed by Karl D. Swartzel Jr. of Bell Labs in 1941. This design used three [COLOR=000080]vacuum tubes[/COLOR] to achieve a gain of 90 dB and operated on voltage rails of ±350 V. It had a single inverting input rather than differential inverting and non-inverting inputs, as are common in today's op-amps. Throughout [COLOR=000080]World War II[/COLOR], Swartzel's design proved its value by being liberally used in the M9 [COLOR=000080]artillery director[/COLOR] designed at Bell Labs. This artillery director worked with the SCR584 [COLOR=000080]radar[/COLOR] system to achieve extraordinary hit rates (near 90%) that would not have been possible otherwise.[COLOR=000080][14][/COLOR]

All the way through to:

*1972: Single sided supply op-amps being produced.* A single sided supply op-amp is one where the input and output voltages can be as low as the negative power supply voltage instead of needing to be at least two volts above it. The result is that it can operate in many applications with the negative supply pin on the op-amp being connected to the signal ground, thus eliminating the need for a separate negative power supply.

The LM324 (released in 1972) was one such op-amp that came in a quad package (four separate op-amps in one package) and became an industry standard. In addition to packaging multiple op-amps in a single package, the 1970s also saw the birth of op-amps in hybrid packages. These op-amps were generally improved versions of existing monolithic op-amps. As the properties of monolithic op-amps improved, the more complex hybrid ICs were quickly relegated to systems that are required to have extremely long service lives or other specialty systems.

*Recent trends.* Recently supply voltages in analog circuits have decreased (as they have in digital logic) and low-voltage op-amps have been introduced reflecting this. Supplies of ±5 V and increasingly 3.3 V (sometimes as low as 1.8 V) are common. To maximize the signal range modern op-amps commonly have rail-to-rail output (the output signal can range from the lowest supply voltage to the highest) and sometimes rail-to-rail inputs.

(source wikipedia: [COLOR=000080]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operational_amplifier#Historical_timeline[/COLOR]).


 

Over the years the Op-Amp has slowly become the default building block for Amplifiers, both discrete and integrated and for the last few decades Op-Amps have been the dominant choice when it comes to “general purpose” Audio amplifiers (and outside audio).


They are manufactured in a huge variety at all price levels and with a massive array of different specifications and optimisations for specific jobs. Some are even sold as being optimal for audio. 

Unfortunately, this ubiquity has also led to a lack of understanding of what happens inside these Op-Amp's. There are circuit structures that are common to almost all Op-Amps, there are inherent limitations that are too.


These days we pick up the Datasheet for an Op-Amp and we read:

“The XXX Op-Amp is a JFET-input, ultralow distortion, low-noise operational amplifier fully specified for audio applications. Features include 5.1nV/√Hz noise and low THD+N (0.00005%).”

Surely it ticks all boxes?

Come on, zero point how many zeros THD?

Noise in Nanovolts?

It even says “J-Fet” there and “J-Fets” are in fashion this year we hear.

It's even a special audio grade part. So let's just use that one, okay?


Actually, at iFi WE DO USE THAT ONE.

But not because of these numbers. Or the J-Fets. Or the “Soundplus” moniker.

Sorry to disappoint but our reason is more prosaic. Correctly implemented it sounds as good as anything we have tried and much better than most.


There are some other numbers for that chip that are not headlined. They have more to do with what happens in the real world.

For example, the bandwidth is only 11MHz at no gain and gets substantially less wide as gain is increased. And while the distortion is low at 1kHz and under ideal conditions, there are many things that make it worse, not the least raising the frequency so at 20kHz we have wipe off one zero of that very low distortion figure and at several MHz three to four of the zeros.


It also is not so great with low impedance loads, without adding buffers distortion goes up, so strike another zero if we drive 600 ohm. Actually, the gain is very load dependent!

Now it is not such a low distortion device anymore, is it?

One thing we do not really want to do is to make this Op-Amp filter signals in the region of several MHz or have it driving headphones. We have to take that over by different means if we want to use this Op-Amp for it's undeniable qualities.


If we understand the limitations and possible problems we can design our circuits accordingly and avoid the pitfalls of the limitations and take best advantage of the exceptional audio performance.

If we are simply members of the “Op-Amp of the month” club, we may get all sorts of results, maybe good, maybe bad, maybe indifferent.


Having Op-Amps or not is not a reliable indicator of quality.

Even the best Op-Amp's in the world can be implemented so ham-fisted that the result is poor, using Op-Amps that seem rather old and pedestrian correctly can give surprisingly good results in the real world.

[/quote]


Again on 02-25-2015


 
[quote="iFi]
Originally Posted by *iFi audio* 

Many designers when implementing Op-Amps  (or DAC Chips for that) never really look what is going on inside.

They just take a "datasheet" circuit, cookiecutter style and then swap Op-Amps around (or not) until it more or less sounds like they want (which may or may not be what others want or like).

Also, one thing that differs with AMR/iFi is that we have a team of lead designers - each with their own strengths and experience. If there is only one lead designer, that product tends to go down a certain path based upon the strengths/weaknesses of that one person.

More in the next part...

[/quote]


 

[quote="iFi].
Originally Posted by *iFi audio*

 

To Filter or Not Filter (Part 4)



 
*Go Discrete*

Often the use of discrete circuits is touted as the ultimate expression of the audio design craft. Certainly, going discrete does free us from the shackles of the Op-Amp data-sheet and from the limitations of the manufacturers catalogs, which despite offering 100's of parts usually seem to lack the one with the precise combination of spec's we want. Whatever we want, we design it in.


BUT often discrete designs are not as good as the best modern Op-Amps. With discrete circuitry we can never be as complex modern integrated circuits and this complexity can be used to improve performance.

If we try to imitate integrated circuit Op-Amps in discrete form – we are often ending up with something performing worse, bigger and more expensive than a good and inexpensive Op-Amp chip used right.


Additionally, we can always add discrete parts to extend a good Op-Amp chip that lacks some specific feature we want. Be it an ultra-low noise input stage or a big class A output stage, we can often add these to an otherwise suitable chip and in the process make a hybrid that keeps all the good stuff of the integrated Op-Amp and adds our own desired features with much less complexity and of course cost than a fully discrete design.

At iFi you can find an example of this in the iPhono and its added super low noise MC stage and the added Class A Buffer, that deliver a performance that no single Op-Amp chip could and that would be, if at all possible in purely discrete circuitry, neither small nor particularly affordable.

*The iPHONO*



(Incidentally, one of the few "objective audio tests" when auditioning a phono stage is to 1) play music as loud as you normally listen at. 2) Then lift the needle. 3) Then listen for the "noise" from the phono section. A good phono stage amplifies only the signal so you should not hear "it" from the normal listening position. A normal phono stage amplifiers the signal AND the noise).

So, realistically, there is just one reason to go fully discrete. To get something that does away completely with the fundamental Op-Amp circuit structure and instead does things radically different, something that allows us to step outside the triangle with its + [/quote]


 

[quote="iFi].
Originally Posted by *iFi audio* 

 

*Pro series – working on something stellar*




We have been ‘off the grid’ of late on the Pro series.

First the bad news – we apologise but the Pro iDSD and Pro iCAN will not make it in time for the Munich Show. Both models have been delayed until the summer, circa June/July.

This does not best please us but there are two reasons. The upshot is that we don’t like to make things just to sell (though that is nice), we also like to ensure that you are getting something that is _truly special_ that has a serious amount of performance and longevity built-in.

Special parts are nice and all but the Pro series like the micro iDSD we feel can be truly ‘interstellar’. Without giving too much away as we are still sometime off and things can change, there are 2 developments that explain the decision to push the launch date back:

*1. Going All Discrete and Tubes* – Instead of the proven TI current mode Headphone Buffers we have used in other iFi products, for the Pro-series we taken the decision to apply discrete Class A output buffers directly into the circuit design. This is a complete and fundamental re-design of both the iCAN and iDSD. The first and critical input stage of the single amplification stage (Unistage) can be selected to be either a very low noise J-Fet (< 4nV|/Hz) or a military grade General Electric NOS 5670 Tube.

*2. Pro Chassis* – some of you contacted us to remark that you would like the Pro chassis to be more appealing. It was not the final, final version but a prototype. Nonetheless, we acknowledge your comments and we took a look at it and thought ‘in for a penny…’. The final chassis will be different but not wholesale, but it should be nice.

All things told, the delay to the Pro iDSD and iCAN launch is from mid-May to mid-July, of some 2 months.

As we wish to keep some of the best bits under wraps, we shall keep further disclosures to the bare minimum, until the launch date is in sight. Thorsten and his gang would like to pass on their apologies and thank you all for your patience.

The micro iDSD was a full Crowd-Design project. The Pro series is not but we still acknowledge your input and try to take out the best bits.

[COLOR=00000A]Thank you for your continued patience. It is very much appreciated[/COLOR]

[/quote]

[COLOR=00000A].[/COLOR]
Then on 05-13-2015 iFi breaks a bit of silence to give us some more good bits.


 
[quote="iFi]
Originally Posted by *iFi audio* 

Hi,

1) Will both the tube and J-Fet stages be built in to the unit and selected via a switch setting?
Yes.

2) Will the 5670 tube be singular and socket mounted for swapping?
As the units are balanced, there will be two tubes and yes, they are mounted in sockets. But we do not recommend downgrading to the 6922 family. You can start the hunt for WE396A - but genuine ones will not be cheap.

3) Will the usb input be a "usb B" type that the gemini cable connects to?
This is being finalised, but there is likely to be a B-Type USB 3 Socket.

Cheers.

[/quote]


Further clarification.


 
[quote="iFi]
Originally Posted by *iFi audio* 

Hi,

To answer this and the previous question posed.


For the iDSD Pro we really went back to the drawing board after the first version. As a result its basic topology is _very purist_; which literally means just a passive lowpass filter, Volume Control and an Output Amplifier that could drive Headphones or Line Outputs with equal quality. This ultra simple signal path is one of the reasons that allowed the iDSD nano to offer such good sound quality on such modest budget. Its giant slayer status is largely attributed to this approach and we are adopting the same for the Pro iDSD.

Of course, for the iDSD Pro we have improved the quality and performance of these basic blocks massively. And we mean massively.

The passive low-pass filter incorporates inductors to form a LCRC filter with better filtering of unwanted digital noise while offering a wider audio bandwidth free of analogue phase-shift.

The Volume control is no longer a Chip, instead a balanced Alps Potentiometer (16mm Alps Black) is used. There is more to this Volume control which will be revealed at a later time. :wink_face: For fixed level line outputs the volume control is fully bypassed via relays (just like you find on the AMR DP-777) for the purest possible sound, connect a headphone and the Volume Control is restored.

The Output Amplifier is our new all discrete “Pro-Stage” which does away not only with Op-Amp Chips themselves but even with traditional Op-Amp like structures implemented discretely (e.g. like all these “discrete Op-Amp replacements”. It should be quite unique. Instead the circuitry owes much to the discrete designs of both Neumann and TAB-Telefunken for the West-German radio [/quote]


08-10-2015. We're getting a closer look at something truly special and unique.


 
[quote="iFi].
Originally Posted by *iFi audio* 


Hi,

A Short History of Chipset Euphoria (nod to JK Galbraith readers :wink_face: )

Very fitting in the current economic climate:





In our book, firstly, R2R done properly takes a LOTTA work. Secondly, the statement 'Bit-Perfect Digital Filters' is a contradiction in terms; it only exists in sci-fi as it is a 'true oxymoron'1.

Multi-Bit CAN be Bit-Perfect, but often oversampling and digital filtering is used, that cannot be defeated by the user. To us this not something we would implement.

 
Further, while the mainstay of CD standard Audio, neither Multi-Bit nor Delta Sigma on their own are great for wider dynamic range coupled with higher sample rates.

Multi-Bit systems struggle with distortion at low signal levels. The TDA1543 from Philips which is found in many Non-Oversampling Multi-Bit DACs for example is show to have at best 14.5 Bit linearity at low levels with worst case less than 13 Bit linearity. This is not even really good enough for CD.

By comparison, Delta Sigma DACs can have essentially distortion at low levels that are equal to the noise (read no extra distortion). But Delta Sigma has its own limitations due to supersonic noise, slew limiting and lack of resolution to handle large dynamic steps.

We feel that splitting the job between Muti-Bit for the high-level parts (where it is most capable) and Delta Sigma for low-levels is the best choice when attempting to go past the CD-Limit of dynamic range. If we need to play back CD, well, the TDA1541A or UDA1305T are still our preferred choice, but they are limited to 16 Bit performance.


Cheers.


1A 'true oxymoron' (as opposed to an 'oxymoron') - is "something that is surprisingly true, a paradox2."
2 A paradox - the Greek roots translate to “contrary opinion,” and when two different opinions collide in one statement or action, that's *paradoxical*.

[/quote]

On 08-25-2015 we see what looks like taking the best of both world from delta-sigma and R2R, if I'm reading this right.

 
[quote="iFi]
Originally Posted by *iFi audio* 

Hi,

Interesting points raised but we respectfully beg to differ, albeit slightly.


- I think that if the iDSD Pro is to be a flagship product, the functionality of the iUSB3.0 must be built in.
What kind of flagship product requires the addition of a $400 widget to make it sound like a flagship?

Please bear with us but adding the "iUSB 3 Technology" makes only sense for DACs that are:

1) USB Powered (for any function) - which includes many notionally self-powered, high-end DACs even ones that cost US$10k (see upcoming RMAF for ones that use the iUSB3.0).

2) Lack galvanic isolation (so noise from the USB circuitry can enter the actual DAC/Clock DAC) - which is most DACs out there

3) Have the clock system for Audio on the "dirty USB Side" rather than the "clean DAC Side" in terms of PCB Layout - again, most DACs out there are affected as USB Chip application notes invariably show the audio clocks on the same sheet as the USB Chip.

We hope this sheds more light on what/who the micro iUSB3.0 is aimed at.

_This does not apply to the Pro iDSD. The iDSD Pro will have galvanic isolation and is fully self-powered. So the iUSB3.0 will not help much if any. Few DACs do this at any price. And to answer the next likely question, we have not snipped a trace to get galvanic isolation._ :wink_face: 




- People who bought the Retro Stereo 50 must already be mildly annoyed at the idea that it can be improved by adding an external widget. It's supposed to be an all-in-one so basically it's out of date already.

Its priorites are in a different direction for a different customer base. The Retro has tube amp, DAC, phono stage and headamp all under one chassis and comes with speakers. And the fact that it handles DSD512 means it is quite future-prooofed.

The $400 iUSB Power* is for all iFi and non-iFi products. It improves the sound of US$10k DACs that use a USB connection see at RMAF for example. So yes it wll improve the Retro too.


- Very soon now most other DAC manufacturers will be adding this new USB technology to their products, just as they all added 'asynchronous' operation to replace the greatly inferior 'adaptive' mode.

We accept other manufactures will cotton on - such is life and the nature of free-markets. But fear not. As we originally designed this stuff, we will continue to push the envelope while at the same time, trying to maintain the _same backwards and forwards modularity for iFi and non-iFi products_. eg ANC was developed by AMR for its future products - but it has been trickled-down to the iDAC2 and iUSB3.0.


However, if you are referring specifically to "re-driving USB Inputs," this normally does not make much sense for inclusion in a DAC, as it does not remove the problem from _inside_ the DAC.

If you place these electronics inside the DAC and power them on the same groundplane and with the same PSU as the USB Chip you have put the whole problem _back into_ the DAC.

If you then start separating power supplies etc. et al until you have a situation similar to the iUSB 3 you are looking at major effort, which can be completely avoided by providing galvanic isolation and placing the clocks and other noise sensitive items on the "qiuet side."

Because Bits are truly just Bits. As long as the USB circuitry spits out the right bits and cannot effect any clocks, power supplies etc. and as long as correct impedance USB Cables are used the USB System is quite "tweak proof" which is what we have done as much as we can across the board.

Cheers.


Edited by iFi audio - 9/25/15 at 5:00am


09-25-2015 - among other things galvanic isolation mentioned first




[/quote]


----------



## DougD

Received the new Music Direct catalog on Wed.
  
 It shows a big picture of the iFi iCAN Pro Headphone Amplifier, and gives a short description, concluding with "Read more on our Web site." Price listed as $1,695. Says "NEW" (but does not say "arriving soon.")
  
 The web site as of 5 minutes ago says "Availability: Usually ships in 2 - 3 weeks*" 
  
So ... the Pro could be close. 
  
OTOH, making a catalog of this size probably takes a long time, so this may be an estimate of availability from a few months ago. But this is the first time I have seen an actual price in black & white.


----------



## EVOLVIST

dougd said:


> Received the new Music Direct catalog on Wed.
> 
> It shows a big picture of the iFi iCAN Pro Headphone Amplifier, and gives a short description, concluding with "Read more on our Web site." Price listed as $1,695. Says "NEW" (but does not say "arriving soon.")
> 
> ...




What page of the catalog? I'm not seeing it. The one with Grace Slick and Janis on the cover?

I saw it on Music Direct's website. I'll be sure to give them a call tomorrow and see what's going on.

Thanks for the heads up!


----------



## DougD

evolvist said:


> What page of the catalog? I'm not seeing it. The one with Grace Slick and Janis on the cover?
> 
> I saw it on Music Direct's website. I'll be sure to give them a call tomorrow and see what's going on.
> 
> Thanks for the heads up!


 
  
 Yep that one, top of page 9.


----------



## EVOLVIST

Ah, thanks! I was looking in the amp section, and didn't even think of going off the grid to find it.

Fascinating. Wow.


----------



## EVOLVIST

So, I called up Music Direct and they claimed it could be longer than 2 or 3 weeks, that he believes he hasn't gotten them from the importer yet.

It's still good news. That means the iDSD Pro can't be too far behind.

This also probably accounts for iFi's silence.


----------



## Totsipaki

I've been to the Local Hi End Show Today. Some very nice and talkative guys form Ifi were there explaining me the company's philosophy the products etc.
  
 I had a short Listen to the iCan pro accompanied by an AMR 777 Dac combined with an Aurender streamer with Audeze Headphones, and was very Impressed by It's performance through the Jfet output stage (I guess I am not much of a tube guy).
  
 It is actually smaller than I expected, a smaller than a 2013 mac mini but looks and feels very solid, lush and well built. It was rather warm in operation but not hot to the touch and It is a paradise in features as a headphone amp having all kinds of outputs and tweaks to be adjusted to various headphones and hobbyist audio tastes.
  
 The guys who wait for the dac won't be very happy to know I was told that It is expected around March while the Headphone Amp in Late December. I was told that they are now developing the implementation of a new technology in the forthcoming dac the which is not MQA but They wouldn't reveal more.
  
 As for MQA they said that they'll wait to see If It catches on first and then implement It on their devices something they said can be done as they wouldn't like to pay rights which will translate in charging the customer for more before being sure of It's success. I can't blame them thinking of the rather slow developments in this regard.
  
 You can see some photos on post #891


----------



## bmoura

Or iFi could offer two models of the iDSD Pro - one without MQA and then a more expensive model with MQA.
 I'll take mine with no MQA.


----------



## Faber65

totsipaki said:


> I've been to the Local Hi End Show Today. Some very sympathetic and talkative guys form Ifi were there explaining me the company's philosophy the products etc. I had a short Listen to the iCan pro accompanied by an AMR 777 Dac combined with an Aurender streamer, with Audeze Headphones and was very Impressed by It's performance through the Jfet output stage (I guess I am not much of a tube guy). It is actually smaller than I expected, a bit smaller than a 2013 mac mini but looks and feels very solid, lush and well built. It was rather warm in operation but not hot to the touch and It is a paradise in features as a headphone amp having all kinds of outputs and tweaks to be adjusted to various headphones and hobbyist audio tastes.
> 
> The guys who wait for the dac won't be very happy to know I was told that It is expected around March while the Headphone Amp in Late December. I was told that they are now developing the implementation of a new technology in the forthcoming dac the which is not MQA but They wouldn't reveal more. As for MQA they said that they'll wait to see If It catches on first and then implement It on their devices something they said can be done as they wouldn't like to pay rights which will translate in charging the customer for more before being sure of It's success. I can't blame them thinking of the rather slow developments in this regard.
> 
> I also Have some photos but unfortunately my account does not have the permission for uploading pictures yet sorry..




In Guangzhou?


----------



## Totsipaki

No Athens Greece.


----------



## Totsipaki

bmoura said:


> Or iFi could offer two models of the iDSD Pro - one without MQA and then a more expensive model with MQA.
> I'll take mine with no MQA.


 
  
 That I guess is why they will not include that option in the forthcoming dac, thinking that a lot of their customers would make the same choice.
  
 Personally I'd prefer MQA included and no tube output stage but that would be against Ifi's policy which is to give the customer as many hardware choices as possible to tweak the sound to his/her tastes and needs.


----------



## Totsipaki

There you go. I guess I have sufficient posts now to be allowed to upload pics. Sorry for the mediocre quality I am an amateur.


----------



## Trogdor

totsipaki said:


> The guys who wait for the dac won't be very happy to know I was told that It is expected around March while the Headphone Amp in Late December. I was told that they are now developing the implementation of a new technology in the forthcoming dac the which is not MQA but They wouldn't reveal more.




I was told the same thing at the NYAS. Late winter/early Spring for the iDSD pro. (and they are working tirelessly on it to make that date)



> As for MQA they said that they'll wait to see If It catches on first and then implement It on their devices something they said can be done as they wouldn't like to pay rights which will translate in charging the customer for more before being sure of It's success. I can't blame them thinking of the rather slow developments in this regard.
> You can see some photos on post #891




I've asked around since I think this is by FAR the number one issue with respect to MQA - licensing costs. Meridian isn't giving away the codec for free, and I think they are banking on streaming services like Tidal to pump up demand for MQA support (technically speaking, it's more of a new kind of compression than actual full-fledged format - at the end of the day it's still PCM).

EDIT: Nice pics!


----------



## Totsipaki

From where I see It since they rebooted from scratch late last Spring and with all that competition It will take them at least one year to develop something worthy of taking out to the fierce competition in this price point so I think It is more realistic to see a final prototype in Munich on May very worthy of It's price as far as SQ is concerned but capitalizing mostly on flexibility and "digital purity" as the selling point against It's competitors.
  
 Choosing between flavors by various output stages and not interfering in the digital domain using analog circuitry for sound tweaking is their way of thinking which may not thrill guys like me who know exactly what they like and are bored or don't have the time to tweak but will surely thrill most hi fi enthusiasts. The sure thing judging form what I saw and heard form the pro head amp is that It will be a very sexy and top quality device.


----------



## EVOLVIST

totsipaki said:


> From where I see It since they rebooted from scratch late last Spring and with all that competition It will take them at least one year to develop something worthy of taking out to the fierce competition in this price point so I think It is more realistic to see a final prototype in Munich on May very worthy of It's price as far as SQ is concerned but capitalizing mostly on flexibility and "digital purity" as the selling point against It's competitors.


 
  
 Good points, except that iFi announced their redesign of the iDSD Pro on 12-19-2014, which would give the impressions that the redesign began before that date. That has been almost a year now, and still keeping within the last quarter of 2015, or the first quarter of 2016.
  
 I mean, I guess I can wait, if that's what it takes, but I just wanted to get the timeline straight.


----------



## Maelob

To be fair,  they didn't take any money from us to develop their product. As far as I am concern they can take as long as they need to develop a great product.  I am sure they want to finish it as soon as possible.


----------



## Totsipaki

Nobody blames Ifi for anything.. I am sure they are doing the best  they can.
  
 Maybe It was a mistake that they made the fans hope for something new around early - then late fall, and then constantly delaying It because speculation and anticipation could lead to nervousness after those multiple delays.
  
 Creating a top notch 1500-2000 euro dac-head amp with all that competition out there is by all means no easy feat and especially when trying to keep the balance with inner competition concerning the AMR dac, claiming to create the best sub 2000eur dac/headamp out there at the same time.
  
 My posts were made trying to soothe any nervousness and replacing It with hope for something very special.
  
 Lucky me I have already made my decision and It is not by Ifi I am afraid but I am expecting It around christmas and after listening to the Ifi pro-Amr dac combo I am now certain that I have made the right choice according to my tastes.
  
 That doesn't mean that what I've heard was not top notch It just was not for me.


----------



## Haris Javed

Hi guys - I have a few questions, but first let me thank you for creating the IFI IDSD Micro. It is an amazing product with great price/performance/feature ratio.
  
 I am also interested in the Desktop version.
 - How much will the desktop pro version cost in the US?
 - You state that the Desktop version is rated at 16OHM and 3W - is this XLR or Single ended?
 - Can you make the unit pump out more power? maybe 5W @ 50 OHMS
 ​- Can you offer a Black version with the White IFI logo?
 - If the Unit is a DAC / AMP combo, can you please change the goofy USB extender connector cable?
  
 Thank you!


----------



## iFi audio

haris javed said:


> Hi guys - I have a few questions, but first let me thank you for creating the IFI IDSD Micro. It is an amazing product with great price/performance/feature ratio.
> 
> I am also interested in the Desktop version.
> - How much will the desktop pro version cost in the US?
> ...


 
  
 Hi,
  
 - How much will the desktop pro version cost in the US?
 We expect ~US$2,000
  
 - You state that the Desktop version is rated at 16OHM and 3W - is this XLR or Single ended?
 Single-ended.
  
 - Can you make the unit pump out more power? maybe 5W @ 50 OHMS
 As a result of being SE output voltage is up to 10V into headphones. So with a 50 Ohm headphone this is 2 Watt. Even with quite inefficient headphones this is a very large amount of power. Power is nice but it is isnt everything.
  
 ​- Can you offer a Black version with the White IFI logo?
 Sorry no. Will be dark titanium or dark titanium. The iFi logo will change colour (white/orange) based upon whether Solid-State or Tube circuit is engaged.
  
 - If the Unit is a DAC / AMP combo, can you please change the goofy USB extender connector cable?
 No extender cable. It is a USB 'B' type port. The micro iDSD's USB 'A' male is for CCK/OTG type connections as it was designed to be portable and desktop use.
  
 Cheers.


----------



## all300b

Far too late in the game for a real request - this will have to be for the iFi DSD Pro mark II.  Have always wanted a "1980s CD" button on a DAC - push it and some magical set of filters and EQ are invoked to squeeze a bit of LIFE from these flat, bloodless, recordings so typical before the mid 90s.  Some of this music is fantastic and has never been remastered (or at least not well) - maybe the best approach is to recreate a "pop-vinyl" type of sound for maximal invocation of lost memories.


----------



## EVOLVIST

all300b said:


> Far too late in the game for a real request - this will have to be for the iFi DSD Pro mark II.  Have always wanted a "1980s CD" button on a DAC - push it and some magical set of filters and EQ are invoked to squeeze a bit of LIFE from these flat, bloodless, recordings so typical before the mid 90s.  Some of this music is fantastic and has never been remastered (or at least not well) - maybe the best approach is to recreate a "pop-vinyl" type of sound for maximal invocation of lost memories.


 
  
 Tubes


----------



## iFi audio

all300b said:


> Far too late in the game for a real request - this will have to be for the iFi DSD Pro mark II.  Have always wanted a "1980s CD" button on a DAC - push it and some magical set of filters and EQ are invoked to squeeze a bit of LIFE from these flat, bloodless, recordings so typical before the mid 90s.  Some of this music is fantastic and has never been remastered (or at least not well) - maybe the best approach is to recreate a "pop-vinyl" type of sound for maximal invocation of lost memories.


 
  
 Hi,
  
 No comment on the "1980s button."   
  
 In the interim, you can try Audacity+ReLife (plug-in).
  
 http://audacityteam.org/
 and
 http://www.terrywest.nl/utils.html
  
 Please note we are not the authors of either programs. We just know they do what they say on the tin. As the old saying goes 'you can polish a tXXd.' 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Given this approach does not cost much and kind of 'uncompresses' compressed recordings, this is one thing you can try. There is some fabulous music out there that we adore but it has been compressed to heck. This is how we treat such recordings. It goes without saying that if the recording was ideal in the first place, then there would be no need for this but we all live in the real world.
  
 Cheers.


----------



## Trogdor

all300b said:


> Far too late in the game for a real request - this will have to be for the iFi DSD Pro mark II.  Have always wanted a "1980s CD" button on a DAC - push it and some magical set of filters and EQ are invoked to squeeze a bit of LIFE from these flat, bloodless, recordings so typical before the mid 90s.  Some of this music is fantastic and has never been remastered (or at least not well) - maybe the best approach is to recreate a "pop-vinyl" type of sound for maximal invocation of lost memories.




May I offer you this series of articles.


----------



## EVOLVIST

ifi audio said:


> Hi,
> 
> No comment on the "1980s button."
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hey, thanks for the tip! I'm going to try this. I don't imagine it can do anything for distorted clipping, as you implied, but perhaps it can work some magic for let's say, the full Radiohead catalog, or perhaps even the Stone Temple Pilots catalog. There doesn't appear to be any distortion in these, just ear fatiguing dynamic compression. It's always worth a shot.
  


trogdor said:


> May I offer you this series of articles.


 
  
 This is a pretty good set of articles. I like them. Really great stuff!


----------



## iFi audio

trogdor said:


> May I offer you this series of articles.


 
  
 Really good stuff. We've read them before and well worth bookmarking. Highly recommended for anyone interested in recording quality and other things surrounding music.
  
 Great read and nice to see a reviewer who knows his onions. There are so few out there.


----------



## technobear

The iDSD Pro won't have a 1980's CD button but the iCAN Pro has two 1980's CD knobs.

They are labelled XBASS and 3D and can deal with much that is wrong in 1980's CDs.


----------



## bmoura

franatic said:


> Read this:
> http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/670-schiit-audio-yggdrasil-multibit-dac-review/
> 
> Evidently this Yggy has raised the bar higher. I had looked at Schiit devices and had to reject them because they used C-Media drivers which would not work with Windows Server 2012 R2. That killed usage in my system. That is when I found ifi and have been very happy with this choice.
> ...


 

 As always, you will want to audition the Yggy.  I heard it at The Show Newport earlier this year with the HiFi Man HE-1000 headphones and didn't find it to be anything special.


----------



## all300b

Thanks - I will look into Audacity.  Cool page on metal and sound quality.
  
 | The iDSD Pro won't have a 1980's CD button but the iCAN Pro has two 1980's CD knobs.  They are labelled XBASS and 3D and can deal with much that is wrong in 1980's CDs.
  
 Yep - got those on my iDSD pro - which I would still categorize as one of the all-time greatest hi-fi products for the money.  They help a little sometimes - it depends.


----------



## lakai

Yep - got those on my iDSD pro - which I would still categorize as one of the all-time greatest hi-fi products for the money. They help a little sometimes - it depends. 


...you got the iFI idsd pro..?


----------



## Esprit

After waiting all this time the only thing I hope is that, as the Mytek, the Teac, the Antelope and new other DACs, the iDSD Pro can do HARDWARE upsampling from PCM to DSD128/256 and from DSD64 to DSD128/256. At that point, the Pro will be a "must have"


----------



## technobear

esprit said:


> After waiting all this time the only thing I hope is that, as the Mytek, the Teac, the Antelope and new other DACs, the iDSD Pro can do HARDWARE upsampling from PCM to DSD128/256 and from DSD64 to DSD128/256. At that point, the Pro will be a "must have"




It won't.


----------



## EVOLVIST

esprit said:


> After waiting all this time the only thing I hope is that, as the Mytek, the Teac, the Antelope and new other DACs, the iDSD Pro can do HARDWARE upsampling from PCM to DSD128/256 and from DSD64 to DSD128/256. At that point, the Pro will be a "must have"




Why would it? What's the benefit?

The vast majority of DSD out there isn't even native, so unless you're talking about using iFi's excellent DSD analog filter on all of your audio, I'm not sure what the sonic benefits would be.


----------



## technobear

evolvist said:


> esprit said:
> 
> 
> > After waiting all this time the only thing I hope is that, as the Mytek, the Teac, the Antelope and new other DACs, the iDSD Pro can do HARDWARE upsampling from PCM to DSD128/256 and from DSD64 to DSD128/256. At that point, the Pro will be a "must have"
> ...




For more on why iFi won't be transcoding on the iDSD Pro, read this post:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/711217/idsd-micro-crowd-designed-and-the-new-firmware-flavours-are-here-page-138/690#post_10617050

and this one:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/711217/idsd-micro-crowd-designed-and-the-new-firmware-flavours-are-here-page-138/825#post_10641278

and this one:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/711217/idsd-micro-crowd-designed-and-the-new-firmware-flavours-are-here-page-138/840#post_10641478


----------



## EVOLVIST

Right. I follow you. I recall reading all of this. It's good to go back and read it all. Still, I wasn't talking about the philosophy that went behind iFi's implementation or their tech. Instead, what would be the benefit of up converting to DSD? There isn't one, as far as I can tell, or have heard.


----------



## gr8soundz

evolvist said:


> Right. I follow you. I recall reading all of this. It's good to go back and read it all. Still, I wasn't talking about the philosophy that went behind iFi's implementation or their tech. Instead, what would be the benefit of up converting to DSD? There isn't one, as far as I can tell, or have heard.


 
  
 For me, the benefit of transcoding (as iFi says it) up to DSD via software is that it makes my old, crappy mp3s sound smoother and more musical.
  
 In fact, I purchased my Micro based upon reading it (with software like Foobar 2K) could transcode to DSD 512. It does a lot more than that but, at the time, I'd been scouring the net for higher quality sources but I'm still stuck will some of those bad mp3s. May sound like overkill, but the Micro's 8x octa-DSD ability gave me a lot more hope in that area.


----------



## Dixter

personally.... I like the way the songs sound when they are converted to DSD....  and it is a DSD DAC...  so why not make the DSD DAC work with DSD files/conversion...


----------



## EVOLVIST

I feel y'all. I really do. I love, love, love the Extended analog DSD filter on the micro, so for me I can see the benefits in up converting just so I can use that filter.

Hmmm...what software converts to DSD, anyway? I'm not familiar with any. If anything, this slightly off topic conversation has piqued my interest in converting to DSD to see the results. 

I mean, if it can be done by just anyone, why buy obvious up converted DSD files from vendors?


----------



## gr8soundz

I use Foobar to transcode. Here's the tutorial:
 http://www.hificlube.net/download.ashx?media=/media/194651/Foobar2k%20MP3%20to%20DSD512.pdf
  
 As far as buying upconverted dsd files, I don't (only have some sample dsd files). Would gladly buy any remastered versions (preferably hard copy sacd) of my favorites whether they were CD quality or higher. I do think most re-releases are remastered even if they aren't true dsd and that's where much of the improvements come from.


----------



## MikeyFresh (Oct 29, 2022)

.


----------



## gr8soundz

mikeyfresh said:


> JRiver Media Center can up-sample to 2x DSD (DSD128).


 
  
 Foobar 2K is free and you can select dsd levels up to the Micro's full 512. Again, overkill that may make little audible difference, but why not use the full potential to get whatever % improvement possible.
  
 Getting back to the Pro: according to the old pg1 specs, it'll only go just above dsd 128 (6.2 mhz) compared to 22 mhz max on the Micro. Afaik, no dsd files exist above 256 so it makes sense. Gotta admit it was crazy seeing my i7 cpu going over 30% usage while transcoding to dsd 512.
  
 EDIT: The Pro can do up to 24.8 mhz DSD per the updated specs on pg 59 by @EVOLVIST


----------



## EVOLVIST

gr8soundz said:


> I use Foobar to transcode. Here's the tutorial:
> http://www.hificlube.net/download.ashx?media=/media/194651/Foobar2k%20MP3%20to%20DSD512.pdf
> 
> As far as buying upconverted dsd files, I don't (only have some sample dsd files). Would gladly buy any remastered versions (preferably hard copy sacd) of my favorites whether they were CD quality or higher. I do think most re-releases are remastered even if they aren't true dsd and that's where much of the improvements come from.




Two recent ones I was looking at: Elvis is Back! and Alan Parson's I Robot, I know for a fact that the masters weren't transferred straight to DSD. It's the same mastering as before. I've even called about some to see if they we're true DSD transfers and I was told no. Of course I know that some are, but I'm just careful, otherwise I could do it myself.


----------



## EVOLVIST

Yeah, but with JRMC and Foobar, can you save those PCM files to DSD?

But yes, back to the iDSD Pro. Damn, it can't get here soon enough.


----------



## EVOLVIST

gr8soundz said:


> Foobar 2K is free and you can select dsd levels up to the Micro's full 512. Again, overkill that may make little audible difference, but why not use the full potential to get whatever % improvement possible.
> 
> Getting back to the Pro: according to the old pg1 specs, it'll only go just above dsd 128 (6.2 mhz) compared to 22 mhz max on the Micro. Afaik, no dsd files exist above 256 so it makes sense. Gotta admit it was crazy seeing my i7 cpu going over 30% usage while transcoding to dsd 512.




See pg.59 where I compiled all of the iDSD Pro data onto one page. The Pro is DSD512


----------



## gr8soundz

evolvist said:


> Yeah, but with JRMC and Foobar, can you save those PCM files to DSD?


 
  
 Can't remember if that was possible. Never tried because, at the time, my portables would've converted the same files back down to PCM for playback and I didn't want to waste storage space for yet another duplicate format when I could simply do it real-time on my desktop.


----------



## gr8soundz

evolvist said:


> See pg.59 where I compiled all of the iDSD Pro data onto one page. The Pro is DSD512


 
  
 I see it now. Thanks.
  
 Page 1 really needs to be updated so no one else misses that.
  
 I updated my previous post.


----------



## MikeyFresh

gr8soundz said:


> Foobar 2K is free and you can select dsd levels up to the Micro's full 512. Again, overkill that may make little audible difference, but why not use the full potential to get whatever % improvement possible.
> 
> Getting back to the Pro: according to the old pg1 specs, it'll only go just above dsd 128 (6.2 mhz) compared to 22 mhz max on the Micro. Afaik, no dsd files exist above 256 so it makes sense. Gotta admit it was crazy seeing my i7 cpu going over 30% usage while transcoding to dsd 512.
> 
> EDIT: The Pro can do up to 24.8 mhz DSD per the updated specs on pg 59 by @EVOLVIST


 

 JRMC is also free, if you download/use the *PonoMusic World* skinned version.
  
 In my case I don't have Foobar 2K as an option as it's Windows only, and I use a Mac.


----------



## MikeyFresh

evolvist said:


> Yeah, but with JRMC and Foobar, can you save those PCM files to DSD?
> 
> But yes, back to the iDSD Pro. Damn, it can't get here soon enough.


 

 I don't believe you can save up-sampled files with JRMC.
  
*BitPerfect + DSD Master* allows for the conversion of PCM to DSD64, and those files can be saved as such, but they are only playable as DSD from the BitPerfect software. All other software plays them back as 16/44.1 PCM.
  
 BitPerfect is Mac only unfortunately (for Windows users).


----------



## gr8soundz

mikeyfresh said:


> JRMC is also free, if you download/use the *PonoMusic World* skinned version.
> 
> In my case I don't have Foobar 2K as an option as it's Windows only, and I use a Mac.


 
  
 I have the Pono software (needed it to update the firmware) but it expires after a while and Pono will keep emailing you to download and install the next one. 
  
 Too bad there's no Mac version of Foobar yet but at least you guys don't have to worry about installing audio drivers.


----------



## iFi audio

mikeyfresh said:


> JRiver Media Center can up-sample to 2x DSD (DSD128).


 
  
 Hi,
  
 Actually, as long as you are on Windows and your playback software supports ASIO you can use ASIO-Proxy (the on the fly DSD converter from F2k) and convert to DSD256/512.
 Simply install only the ASIO-Proxy package (ASIOProxyInstall-0.8.3.zip is currently latest version).
  
 http://sourceforge.net/projects/sacddecoder/files/foo_dsd_asio/
  
 Different DSD re-samplers use very different filtering and conversion algorithms and can sound quite dramatically different. From our own auditions, we do rather like the results from ASIOProxy, more so than some other options. But try for yourself. This allows the use even of Winamp with Ochtan San's ASIO Plugin to convert MP3 and others to 8 X DSD if you so desire. How is that for a blast from the Computer Audio past.
  
 Another free non-Foobar option is to locate J-River Music Jukebox Version 12, which had ASIO Output capability (it was deleted on later versions).
  
 Incidentally, for anyone who favours playback software that does not handle DSD at all, it is possible to encode DSD directly into DoP-DSD Files (DOP-FLAC) which will play back on any Software that handles Suitable PCM Sample rates.
  
 The converter software (DSD to PCM Converter) is found here:
 http://members3.jcom.home.ne.jp/yuki_san/
  
 It allows DSD conversion to PCM (destructive) or encoding DSD up to DSD128 into DoP Files. It also allows bulk conversion.
  
 Cheers.


----------



## Esprit

evolvist said:


> Why would it? What's the benefit?
> 
> The vast majority of DSD out there isn't even native, so unless you're talking about using iFi's excellent DSD analog filter on all of your audio, I'm not sure what the sonic benefits would be.


 
 I'm listening now, using HQPlayer (you can download the trial), all my PCM files: PCM 44,1 upconverted to DSD128 (Mytek DSD 192, Yulong DA8, Yulong DA 8 II, Yulong D200, Yulong U200 onlly to DSD64).
 For me it is a great pleasure to listen in this way
  
 About the Teac 503:
_DSD Up-conversion function using a custom chip_

_Using an FPGA (programmable IC) of our own design that utilizes a fluency algorithm to smoothly augment digital audio signals, in addition to the 2x, 4x and 8x upconversion of PCM digital signals, DSD up conversion is also supported. Using this, you can easily experience the dense sense of air that DSD files have even when listening to CDs from your collection. 
 You can up-convert 44.1kHz/16-bit audio files ripped from CDs up to 11.2MHz DSD format files, which have about 256 times the amount of data as the original CD files. 48kHz PCM audio files can be played back in 12.2MHz DSD format._



http://www.teac.com/product/ud-503/


----------



## Esprit

> Originally Posted by *gr8soundz* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> Getting back to the Pro: according to the old pg1 specs, it'll only go just above dsd 128 (6.2 mhz) compared to 22 mhz max on the Micro. Afaik, no dsd files exist above 256 so it makes sense. Gotta admit it was crazy seeing my i7 cpu going over 30% usage while transcoding to dsd 512.


 
 I hope they are just old spes otherwise I would be wasting time to wait for this product


----------



## Esprit

evolvist said:


> See pg.59 where I compiled all of the iDSD Pro data onto one page. The Pro is DSD512


 
 Well: the alert was subsequently called off. Pfiuuuuuu...


----------



## analogsurviver

esprit said:


> I'm listening now, using HQPlayer (you can download the trial), all my PCM files: PCM 44,1 upconverted to DSD128 (Mytek DSD 192, Yulong DA8, Yulong DA 8 II, Yulong D200, Yulong U200 onlly to DSD64).
> For me it is a great pleasure to listen in this way
> 
> About the Teac 503:
> ...


 
  


esprit said:


> I'm listening now, using HQPlayer (you can download the trial), all my PCM files: PCM 44,1 upconverted to DSD128 (Mytek DSD 192, Yulong DA8, Yulong DA 8 II, Yulong D200, Yulong U200 onlly to DSD64).
> For me it is a great pleasure to listen in this way
> 
> About the Teac 503:
> ...


 
 I am a firm supporter and advicate of DSD and record most of my recordings in it. But seeing claims that DSD contains  up to 256x more data than CD is not just sugar coating, it is downright misleading. I would have expected some more honesty from the likes of TEAC. This undermines the credibility of up to now highly regarded manufacturer in my eyes.
  
 DSD is 1 bit system, PCM is multibit - and even CD has 44.1 kHz times 16 bit data - not times 1bit; what it would have had according to the above totally false and misleading claim.


----------



## Esprit

technobear said:


> For more on why iFi won't be transcoding on the iDSD Pro, read this post:


 
 I've read but, I could be wrong, It seems to me different regarding what I've asked (and the Teac does...)


----------



## Esprit

analogsurviver said:


> I am a firm supporter and advicate of DSD and record most of my recordings in it. But seeing claims that DSD contains  up to 256x more data than CD is not just sugar coating, it is downright misleading. I would have expected some more honesty from the likes of TEAC. This undermines the credibility of up to now highly regarded manufacturer in my eyes.


 
 You are right about these statements, it's marketing...


----------



## EVOLVIST

I know we're still veering off topic, since everyone is (and should be) all about the iFi iDSD Pro DAC in here, but I've managed to convert PCM to DSD128 using JRMC 18.
  
 Load your track. Go to *TOOLS* in the top menu. A dropdown list appears. Select *ADVANCED TOOLS*. Select *CONVERT FORMAT*.
  
 Now in the navigation tree on the right of the JRMC software, at the bottom, you'll see many different ways to convert files. DSD is one of them, up to 128.
  
 I haven't heard a track yet, though. I'll have to wait until I'm home to try the ear test.
  
 So, @iFi, is the iDSD Pro still in the hangar?


----------



## analogsurviver

esprit said:


> You are right about these statements, it's marketing...


 
 Marketing is usually limited to sugar coating, this exceeds it by far too much. It is plain misleading.
  
 There is any number lovers of RBCD out there, the last thing DSD needs is shooting itself in the foot  in such a way...


----------



## Haris Javed

ifi audio said:


> Hi,
> 
> - How much will the desktop pro version cost in the US?
> We expect ~US$2,000
> ...


 
 Thank you
  
 My ocd is not happy about the color  
  

  
 Thank you


----------



## EVOLVIST

haris javed said:


> Thank you
> 
> My ocd is not happy about the color
> 
> ...




Paint it Black.


----------



## iFi audio

Join the force.......head over to our competition for a chance to win some iFi goodies and get the latest on the iCan SE Micro!
  
 Thread: http://www.head-fi.org/t/790869/ican-micro-se-intergalactic-launch-competition


----------



## bmoura

esprit said:


> After waiting all this time the only thing I hope is that, as the Mytek, the Teac, the Antelope and new other DACs, the iDSD Pro can do HARDWARE upsampling from PCM to DSD128/256 and from DSD64 to DSD128/256. At that point, the Pro will be a "must have"


 
 I'm surprised that more DACs don't offer hardware upsampling to DSD 128 and DSD 256. 
 I have DSD 128 upsampling on the Sony HAP-Z1ES and use it all the time with PCM files.


----------



## bmoura

evolvist said:


> I mean, if it can be done by just anyone, why buy obvious up converted DSD files from vendors?


 
 Yes, you can focus on DSD 64, DSD 128 and DSD 256 files vs. converted PCM files.
 Over on Native DSD, they specifically don't offer PCM to DSD files.
 https://www.nativedsd.com/homepage/quad_dsd_music
 https://www.nativedsd.com/homepage/double_dsd_music


----------



## bmoura

all300b said:


> Yep - got those on my iDSD pro - which I would still categorize as one of the all-time greatest hi-fi products for the money.  They help a little sometimes - it depends.


 
 Congratulations on being an early beta tester of the iDSD Pro.
 Must be very exciting!


----------



## EVOLVIST

bmoura said:


> Yes, you can focus on DSD 64, DSD 128 and DSD 256 files vs. converted PCM files.
> Over on Native DSD, they specifically don't offer PCM to DSD files.
> https://www.nativedsd.com/homepage/quad_dsd_music
> https://www.nativedsd.com/homepage/double_dsd_music


 
  
 Right. But that is just a very small niche. I've purchased recordings from them, and they are beautiful. Still, outside of very small labels and groups, there is not much Native DSD out there.
  
 In short, you find Frank Sinatra, Alan Parsons, Aerosmith, Elvis, Dusty Springfield, and on and on in DSD, but to the best of my knowledge they are up-converting just as I am. Now, there are some DSD files of older music that are remastered especially for DSD and/or SACD (which a lot of DSF files are pulled from), and that's really cool! That's probably the best you'll _ever_ get for older recordings.
  
 Otherwise, I can do the up-converting, myself, which doesn't mean that I'm imparting some sort of extra sonic quality by doing so. It only means that I'm able to use iFi's excellent Extended analog filter to enjoy my music (which is pleasing in its own right - but that's as far as it goes).
  
 In closing, what super popular act today, has released a brand new album in DSD? To the best of my knowledge, none. Hell, the truth is, the probability of that happening is so super small, because most popular artists are still brickwalling the piss out of their albums. Even the good guys (Tom Petty, Neil Young, Jack White <insert any jazz or country great here>) are just now getting around to the 24/196 thing.
  
 I just converted the Sgt. Peppers album to DSF 64, and I listen with my iFi filter. It shimmers! It sounds lovely. Thanks to iFi for that filter.  It's not native DSD, or course, but it least it offers another perspective you're not going to get from any other DAC.


----------



## bmoura

evolvist said:


> Right. But that is just a very small niche. I've purchased recordings from them, and they are beautiful. Still, outside of very small labels and groups, there is not much Native DSD out there.
> 
> In short, you find Frank Sinatra, Alan Parsons, Aerosmith, Elvis, Dusty Springfield, and on and on in DSD, but to the best of my knowledge they are up-converting just as I am. Now, there are some DSD files of older music that are remastered especially for DSD and/or SACD (which a lot of DSF files are pulled from), and that's really cool! That's probably the best you'll _ever_ get for older recordings.


 
 If you're into Elvis, check out his Stereo '57 album on DSD Download at Acoustic Sounds.  Transferred from Stereo Analog Master Tape to DSD.  Amazing.
 http://store.acousticsounds.com/d/94709/Elvis_Presley-Stereo_57_Essential_Elvis_Volume_2-DSD_Single_Rate_28MHz64fs_Download
  
 As to conversions from PCM to DSD, the quality depends on the Analog to Digital Converter (ADC) you are using.
 It's pretty likely that the converters used by the mastering and transfer engineers are more accurate and of higher sonic quality than what a music listener at home would own.


----------



## MikeyFresh

bmoura said:


> If you're into Elvis, check out his Stereo '57 album on DSD Download at Acoustic Sounds.  Transferred from Stereo Analog Master Tape to DSD.  Amazing.
> http://store.acousticsounds.com/d/94709/Elvis_Presley-Stereo_57_Essential_Elvis_Volume_2-DSD_Single_Rate_28MHz64fs_Download
> 
> As to conversions from PCM to DSD, the quality depends on the Analog to Digital Converter (ADC) you are using.
> It's pretty likely that the converters used by the mastering and transfer engineers are more accurate and of higher sonic quality than what a music listener at home would own.


 

 PCM to DSD conversion does not make use of an ADC, the conversion happens solely in the digital domain.
  
 The ADC comes into use on the original transfer from analog tape, whether that transfer is to PCM or DSD, but no ADC is used for PCM to DSD conversion or vice versa excepting rare cases with very early digital recordings where there is no analog tape. The early 16 bit digital recordings are sometimes first output as analog, then that analog output is recaptured in hi-rez (PCM or DSD) by an ADC. The stellar Dire Straits Brothers In Arms import SACD was done that way.


----------



## grdlow

Any more updates on the release date for the pro ican?


----------



## iFi audio

grdlow said:


> Any more updates on the release date for the pro ican?


 
  
 Hi,
  
 micro iCAN SE - end Dec/beg Jan. Will depend upon Xmas deliveries etc.. The micro iCAN SE has a fair bit of the Pro iCAN dna.
  
 Pro iCAN expected end of January.
  
 Pro iDSD end of first quarter.
  
 Cheers.


----------



## zeissiez

ifi audio said:


> grdlow said:
> 
> 
> > Any more updates on the release date for the pro ican?
> ...




Does the delivery of the iCan Pro at end of Jan applies to China too?


----------



## iFi audio

Early Xmas Present to everyone from David Elias and iFi  

Great musician, great recording quality and music all the way from Hawaii at Xmas. What more do one need?

Family and friends to enjoy music together with.

 

 Yes we like to audio equipment but we also listen to a lotta music and David Elias is one of the nicest artists out there.

  

 Mele Kalikimaka and Hau’oli Makahiki Hou!

  

 Happy Holidays from David Elias and iFi Audio!


  
 http://ifi-audio.com/audio_blog/present-alert-merry-christmas-and-happy-new-year-to-all-ifi-customers-from-david-elias-and-ifi-audio/


----------



## Allvey

ifi audio said:


> Hi,
> 
> micro iCAN SE - end Dec/beg Jan. Will depend upon Xmas deliveries etc.. The micro iCAN SE has a fair bit of the Pro iCAN dna.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Final prices in EUR yet? tx.


----------



## bmoura

analogsurviver said:


> I am a firm supporter and advicate of DSD and record most of my recordings in it.


 
 Are your DSD recordings available for download ?


----------



## analogsurviver

bmoura said:


> Are your DSD recordings available for download ?


 
 Regrettably, not yet. The problem is that whatever is available commercially, has been mastered in PCM (192/32 float ) and finally issued as CD. This is due to the fact that only from fairly recently ( less than a year ) only two privately owned Merging DAWs are in my country - and my producer and mastering engineer can not allow himself to take extra time to travel to these two locations in order to master in DSD ( only at very near before and after the cut DSD is converted to PCM to allow mastering, otherwise > 99% of the recording remains intact in native DSD ) - even if and when these facilities were available for free. 
  
  
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XisnN-dCEJM


----------



## spdtdl

ifi audio said:


> Hi,
> 
> micro iCAN SE - end Dec/beg Jan. Will depend upon Xmas deliveries etc.. The micro iCAN SE has a fair bit of the Pro iCAN dna.
> 
> ...


 
 iCan SE Pre-ordered!!! woo hoo!


----------



## EVOLVIST

Happy New Year to all!

This means the iDSD Pro is right around the corner.


----------



## bmoura

evolvist said:


> Happy New Year to all!
> 
> This means the iDSD Pro is right around the corner.


 

 Yes, late March 2016 is the date for the iDSD Pro.


----------



## EVOLVIST

bmoura said:


> Yes, late March 2016 is the date for the iDSD Pro.




I've had this money burning a hole in my pocket since at least May of 2015.

This should be worth it in so many ways, though.

Say, @iFi Audio, will the iCAN Pro use your Tubestate design on the solid state side, or do you forego the Tubestate because you use actual tubes with the flip of a switch?


----------



## iFi audio

evolvist said:


> I've had this money burning a hole in my pocket since at least May of 2015.
> 
> This should be worth it in so many ways, though.
> 
> Say, @iFi Audio, will the iCAN Pro use your Tubestate design on the solid state side, or do you forego the Tubestate because you use actual tubes with the flip of a switch?


 
  
 Hi,
  
 The Pro iCAN has 2xGE5670s.
  
 The rest of the circuitry within the Pro line is an extension of the Tubestate design, with further advancements in terms of performance.
  
 So in the Pro-Line when you select 'Solid-State' the operation parallels the TubeState design, in terms of underlying principles, however the sound has been somewhat de-tuned from emulating tubes, as we have real ones that can be engaged on demand instead and a little more.
  
 Cheers.


----------



## EVOLVIST

ifi audio said:


> Hi,
> 
> The Pro iCAN has 2xGE5670s.
> 
> ...


 
  
@iFi audio Cheers! I take it that when you say Pro-Line, we're talking the iDSD Pro, as well, which will have the "de-tuned" TubeState in solid state mode? It reads like that's from what you're saying, but I'm merely seeking a little clarity, if at all possible.


----------



## iFi audio

evolvist said:


> @iFi audio Cheers! I take it that when you say Pro-Line, we're talking the iDSD Pro, as well, which will have the "de-tuned" TubeState in solid state mode? It reads like that's from what you're saying, but I'm merely seeking a little clarity, if at all possible.


 
  
 Hi,
  
 Easy one, "yes!"


----------



## xanlamin

ifi audio said:


> Hi,
> 
> Easy one, "yes!"


 
  
 Yay! iDSD Micro has been my fav portable amp since its launch. Looking forward to the Pro version!


----------



## sdolezalek

Given that since you started the iDSD Pro development process a lot has happened on the software side of the business (specifically I would point to Roon and the recent announcement of Roon-Ready hardware as well as the even more recent announcements of Meridian's MQA partnerships) is it likely that we will see the enablement of either of these technologies in the Pro when it is released?


----------



## Trogdor

sdolezalek said:


> Given that since you started the iDSD Pro development process a lot has happened on the software side of the business (specifically I would point to Roon and the recent announcement of Roon-Ready hardware as well as the even more recent announcements of Meridian's MQA partnerships) is it likely that we will see the enablement of either of these technologies in the Pro when it is released?




Unless you are multi-room TIDAL streaming kinda audiophile, as of today, they have very little impact on the average iDSD Pro customer, right? What am I missing?


----------



## sdolezalek

MQA in theory not only benefits streaming folks but could also be embedded in downloadable digital files, so you would miss that benefit.  As to Roon, one of the great things it enables is using your computer to do additional processing (both upsampling, filtering, convolution and room response adjustments) that are then fed into the DAC by simply connecting it to your network.  So it isn't just mulltiroom, but it assumes that you wouldn't necessarily have a high powered computer in the same room as your DAC (both to avoid fan noise and electromechanical noise). 
  
 So yes, it would be focused on the "audiophile" types but I thought that was exactly where the iDSD Pro was focused (as compared to the Nano or Micro).


----------



## Trogdor

sdolezalek said:


> MQA in theory not only benefits streaming folks but could also be embedded in downloadable digital files, so you would miss that benefit.  As to Roon, one of the great things it enables is using your computer to do additional processing (both upsampling, filtering, convolution and room response adjustments) that are then fed into the DAC by simply connecting it to your network.




Again, once you say network, I think multiroom.



> So it isn't just mulltiroom, but it assumes that you wouldn't necessarily have a high powered computer in the same room as your DAC (both to avoid fan noise and electromechanical noise).
> 
> So yes, it would be focused on the "audiophile" types but I thought that was exactly where the iDSD Pro was focused (as compared to the Nano or Micro).




But there are " hidden costs" to all of these things (licensing mainly) and it's not clear to me that either of these technologies are truly entrenched even within the audiophile market.

Sorry if I'm grumpy about it but I find the enthusiasm for a $600 software player very, very strange....

I am thoroughly excited about both PRO series of products and I think they maybe THE products of 2016 to watch.


----------



## labjr

I imagine MQA can also be software decoded by media player,  So doesn't necessarily have to be built in to the DAC. What I don't get is where's the motivation for record labels to remaster again just to do MQA encoding when they do such a lousy job with mastering and provenance already? If anything they may transcode current digital files and try to pass them off as newly remastered. Thus, I'm not to worried about MQA becoming well established.


----------



## Trogdor

labjr said:


> I imagine MQA can also be software decoded by media player,  So doesn't necessarily have to be built in to the DAC. What I don't get is where's the motivation for record labels to remaster again just to do MQA encoding when they do such a lousy job with mastering and provenance already? If anything they may transcode current digital files and try to pass them off as newly remastered. Thus, I'm not to worried about MQA becoming well established.




You summarized my thoughts exactly. Unless you are TIDAL and streaming lossless files, I don't see any benefit yet. And you can be rest assured that both Spotify and Apple aren't going to pay Meridian licensing fees either.


----------



## sdolezalek

I have found that most folks who are "grumpy" about this haven't tried it (and in this case try usually means using it for several weeks as there is a real learning curve).  So it takes work, often quite a bit more work than plugging in a piece of hardware and sitting back and listening.  But the amount of fidelity that a number of us have already been able to pull out of both the iDSD Nano and iDSD Micro using these pieces of software (particularly when one uses HQPlayer integrated with Roon) means we are getting the sound quality equivalent of what would otherwise be a much more expensive DAC (in fact, by comparison the cost of the software is cheap). Depends on how you value your own time as to whether a $3-5,000 DAC would get you the same upside.
  
 Of course, my expectation is that using some of that same software with the iDSD Pro will get you into "state of the art" range with the very best DACs out there.  
  
 As to MQA, I too would have thought it was going to be a fringe product, but look at how many manufacturers have, in just this week at CES, announced they are going to be integrating some form of MQA.


----------



## EVOLVIST

ifi audio said:


> Hi,
> 
> Easy one, "yes!"


 
  
@iFi audio I've been reading back through old threads, but haven't found anything (possibly because nothing exists), so I'll ask: does the iDSD micro have the de-tuned TubeState, as well, where it's not enough to say it has TubeState circuitry? I've always said that the iDSD micro sounds the most vinyl-like of any out-of-the-box DAC I have ever heard. So I was wondering if a de-tuned TubeState might be a part of the reason.


----------



## iFi audio

evolvist said:


> @iFi audio I've been reading back through old threads, but haven't found anything (possibly because nothing exists), so I'll ask: does the iDSD micro have the de-tuned TubeState, as well, where it's not enough to say it has TubeState circuitry? I've always said that the iDSD micro sounds the most vinyl-like of any out-of-the-box DAC I have ever heard. So I was wondering if a de-tuned TubeState might be a part of the reason.


 
  
 Hi,
  
 No.
  
 The headphone Amplifier in the iDSD micro is based on the design of the original iCAN and parallels its design in many areas. However, due to space and power consumptions limitations (read: 50:50 desktoportable) a Burr Brown "SoundPlus" J-Fet operational Amplifier is used instead of the Tubestate circuitry.
  
 The SoundPlus iFi use is one of the best sounding Op-Amp's out there (at almost any money), yet it is still a traditional solid-state part.
 So as a result the Headphone Amplifier in the iDSD micro is essentially neutral.
  
 "I've always said that the iDSD micro sounds the most vinyl-like of any out-of-the-box DAC I have ever heard. So I was wondering if a de-tuned TubeState might be a part of the reason."
  
 We suspect that you are hearing the merits of the BB DSD1793 DAC Chip and it's implementation. At AMR/iFi we come from a Vinyl/Tubes/Ultra-Fi background and we try hard to capture the crucial qualities of Vinyl and Tubes in all Equipment we make, regardless of cost. Google CD-77 and you know what we mean.
  
 We spent a considerable amount of time on the DAC side, as this seems to be the area where the greatest gain can be made within a system, too many DAC's sadly sound stereotypically 'Digital.'


----------



## iFi audio

sdolezalek said:


> Given that since you started the iDSD Pro development process a lot has happened on the software side of the business (specifically I would point to Roon and the recent announcement of Roon-Ready hardware as well as the even more recent announcements of Meridian's MQA partnerships) is it likely that we will see the enablement of either of these technologies in the Pro when it is released?


 
  
 Hi,
  
 Good question.
  
 MQA is at this point (based on our latest information) not finalised in terms of Specifications as well as licensing model etc.
  
 Meridian has been working with a small number of "strategic partners", if you are not one, they play cards close to the chest. So in this situation we cannot sensibly commit to embedding MQA decoding in iFi Hardware.
  
 As we have stated before, presuming that MQA sees significant adoption, that licensing is Fair, Reasonable and Non-Discriminatory (FRAND) and that the decoding part does not require resources on the XMOS Chips that are allocated elsewhere, we have no issue to update all iFi firmware to support MQA.
  
 However, while initially Meridian seemed to insist that MQA is Hardware decoding only, this stance seems to have changed and some software is expected to decode MQA in Software to standard PCM. If Software decoding becomes widespread (e.g. Roon, Tidal etc.) there would be little point to embed MQA.
  
 Time will tell. Bottom line, we are not against MQA and will support it if that makes any sense, but unless and until we see full spec, licensing models and source code we cannot make any formal statements as to if and when MQA will be on iFi Hardware.
  
 In many cases the support announced for MQA by Playback Software and Streamer vendors merely means they will play files bit-perfect, which most do these days, nothing else is needed support MQA if Hardware based decoding is used.
  
 Hope this sheds more light.


----------



## rickyleelee

others on another forum already discussed the failed meridian lossless packaging. Just hope this isnt another fad.


----------



## Mfcthebold

While MLP may have been a failed format as a consumer accepted format, all blu-rays and even movie theaters still utilize the format. It is now licensed through Dolby as Dolby True HD and an expanded channel version known as Atmos. The technology is quite outstanding from a codec perspective.
MQA is an encode<>decode technology. Where the decoding occurs is unclear. What is known that a lot of Bob Stuart's efforts in anti-aliasing and pre-ring correction is part of it.

I would be very happy if this format catches fire, no matter the licensing and methods to get it to the market. If AMR is able to make MQA possible once the business end is satisfied, I will be first in line to support iFi.


----------



## bmoura

labjr said:


> I imagine MQA can also be software decoded by media player,  So doesn't necessarily have to be built in to the DAC. What I don't get is where's the motivation for record labels to remaster again just to do MQA encoding when they do such a lousy job with mastering and provenance already? If anything they may transcode current digital files and try to pass them off as newly remastered. Thus, I'm not to worried about MQA becoming well established.


 

 According to Meridian there are two parts to the MQA decoding process - software and hardware. You can get some of the MQA benefits by listening with software including licensed MQA decoding.
 For full MQA decoding and benefits, the DAC or Player hardware also needs MQA decoding.


----------



## rickyleelee

on another forum, it is mentioned that MQA is lossly whereas MQA is advertised as lossless. That already gave me doubts about it. i am watching to see the cheerleading ladies who support mreidian as it is good to read.


----------



## EVOLVIST

This thread has died down a little. Isn't it about time to jumpstart our excitement?!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
@iFi audio can you give us some good news on the iDSD Pro and the iCAN Pro?


----------



## RAFA

evolvist said:


> This thread has died down a little. Isn't it about time to jumpstart our excitement?!!!
> 
> @iFi audio
> can you give us some good news on the iDSD Pro and the iCAN Pro?




Thats true. No information over periods of time kind of drops any interest.


----------



## bmoura

evolvist said:


> This thread has died down a little. Isn't it about time to jumpstart our excitement?!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 The iCAN Pro should be out soon.  That will revitalize the thread as we hear first impressions from the early owners.  To be followed by more on the iDSD Pro as Spring approaches.
  
 Looking forward to it.


----------



## Trogdor

rafa said:


> Thats true. No information over periods of time kind of drops any interest.




Only for the impatient.


----------



## RAFA

trogdor said:


> Only for the impatient.




Yes, I am the impatient type.


----------



## EVOLVIST

trogdor said:


> Only for the impatient.




Well, maybe some are impatient. I'm rather in between. The thing is, these days, I have the iCAN Pro staring at my face on Music Direct, for what?...1 and a half months now, and I can't order one? 

For those who are gaga for iFi gear, the wait is yeah...a little tedious, but not unbearable.


----------



## grdlow

i've been using the new iCan SE micro with the HD800 and it's quite awesome. eager to know how much better the iCan Pro would sound over its smaller sibling. it seems both amps share the same 15v iPower supply.


----------



## EVOLVIST

A source told me that the iCAN Pro probably ships in March, which means that the iDSD Pro will ship later. Take that with a grain of salt, please.

Also, take with a grain of salt that the reason the iDSD Pro keeps getting pushed back is because iFi is still trying to implement some extra goodies. What those are, I cannot say.


----------



## rickyleelee

i didnt hear about the launch date of the Pro Can but my iclub person told me the iCAN se has some of the pro can designs trickel down inside so this does make some sense as they are both from the same platform. I have the iCan se here and it is needs to be heard - as it is something quite good. for the price it is quite a shock. Just to my ears.


----------



## JootecFromMars

I'm looking forward to hearing how the dac on the Pro iDSD stacks up against the Schiit Gungnir multibit and Yggy.


----------



## rickyleelee

i would try the micro Can se againt your gears. ifi stuff has amr trickel down. even chord pricy machines struggle to compare with amr machines. but chord has better branding. so give and take


----------



## spdtdl

This SE is OFF THE SCALE!!!!!
  
 Prince 'Aint about to stop' with x-bass on > 400i's.
  
 I could be in the same room next to his band.


----------



## rickyleelee

looks like it is still in the box? we need a picture your system and cans.


----------



## Totsipaki

evolvist said:


> A source told me that the iCAN Pro probably ships in March, which means that the iDSD Pro will ship later. Take that with a grain of salt, please.
> 
> Also, take with a grain of salt that the reason the iDSD Pro keeps getting pushed back is because iFi is still trying to implement some extra goodies. What those are, I cannot say.


 

 Great.. Considering that this thread about Ifi I dsd pro started in Jan 2014 and we are already talking about May 2016 If not a later Release Date this product is Indeed a challenge for the collective patience of those eager to obtain It.. I Just hope we will not be discussing the next three Month Delay next January 2017.. After two years full of reboots delays and constant fruitless teasing anything is possible me says..


----------



## EVOLVIST

totsipaki said:


> Great.. Considering that this thread about Ifi I dsd pro started in Jan 2014 and we are already talking about May 2016 If not a later Release Date this product is Indeed a challenge for the collective patience of those eager to obtain It.. I Just hope we will not be discussing the next three Month Delay next January 2017.. After two years full of reboots delays and constant fruitless teasing anything is possible me says..




I understand, but let's not forget that when this thread was started the iDSD micro was still not released; so, in reality, this thread might have been premature. 

Also, iFi has released many other products since then. That the Pro series is their flagship, I imagine that more thought is going into it for the consumer, as opposed to iFi just halting it, when the truth be told, they could have slapped any old product together and it would have sold well, just because it reads "iFi" and "Pro."

But no. Delays in this case shows a true desire to be true to themselves. Because that also equates to customer satisfaction. 

That said, iFi, hurry the hell up! Haha!


----------



## spdtdl

rickyleelee said:


> looks like it is still in the box? we need a picture your system and cans.


 
  

 2015 Chromebook Pixel LS, Chrome OS wiped out and running Manjaro, USB 'Type C' > USB 'Type B' > iDAC2 > iCAN SE > 400i
  

 Desktop Rig, have the iCAN SE on a remote power strip so I can turn it off easily.
  

 iCAN SE
  

 iDAC2 doing it's thing, out of sight behind the monitors


----------



## rickyleelee

Agree - there are other manufacturers who put the same circuit board in a bigger case and add bigger caps and call it a whole new model. I hope ifi does not change bigger caps and put the micro dsd circuit board in the pro case and sell it for U$2k. I would lose all faith in them if they did exspec after all this waiting.


----------



## technobear




----------



## murphythecat

Willl there be a Ifi Itube pro? if so, what will be the features?


----------



## gr8soundz

Both the iCan Pro and iDSD Pro will have their own tubes which can be switched on/off. No need for a Pro iTube.


----------



## EVOLVIST

rickyleelee said:


> Agree - there are other manufacturers who put the same circuit board in a bigger case and add bigger caps and call it a whole new model. I hope ifi does not change bigger caps and put the micro dsd circuit board in the pro case and sell it for U$2k. I would lose all faith in them if they did exspec after all this waiting.




Nah, can't happen these days. You have people nowadays who buy the things just to crack open the box and look at the innards. Plus, remember how the board for the Retro was so different? Ain't gonna happen here, or the scandal would be on! Heh.


----------



## JootecFromMars

Hmmmm....... 'TWO OTHER NEW LAUNCHES'........


----------



## EVOLVIST

jootecfrommars said:


> Hmmmm....... 'TWO OTHER NEW LAUNCHES'........     :atsmile:




Ah no! Call the printers...that's meant to be LUNCHES! Two new LUNCHES! You can stop by the iFi booth and have a quick bite while trying the iCAN Pro. I cannae believe that slipped through to the press. Drat!


----------



## technobear

evolvist said:


> jootecfrommars said:
> 
> 
> > Hmmmm....... 'TWO OTHER NEW LAUNCHES'........     :atsmile:
> ...






I'm guessing the micro iCAN SE and the Meze headphones.


----------



## grizzlybeast

http://www.musicdirect.com/p-364754-ifi-pro-ican-headphone-amp.aspx
  
 is that real... can it be purchased there?


----------



## EVOLVIST

grizzlybeast said:


> http://www.musicdirect.com/p-364754-ifi-pro-ican-headphone-amp.aspx
> 
> is that real... can it be purchased there?




Yes, it is real. Can it be purchased? Yes and no. You can put your money down for when it will be released, which will be around a month from now, according to the distributor.


----------



## JWahl

I have to admit, I'm still very curious of the iCan Pro (I did start the thread after all).  But, it will be facing some very still competition, between the Schitt Mjolnir 2 and Ragnarok, and the forthcoming Eddie Current Black Widow, and even Bryston's BHA-1.  I'm just hoping it will be sufficiently transparent enough to benefit from being connected to a top tier source.  As it's quite a price jump up from the iCan Micro.  I'm still holding out hope for Team iFi on this one, though.


----------



## rickyleelee

At least one other manufacurer who does this here on headfi. But not going to say. best you find for yourself. It was well covered in the Asia audio forums which is where i came across this info.


----------



## EVOLVIST

jwahl said:


> I have to admit, I'm still very curious of the iCan Pro (I did start the thread after all).  But, it will be facing some very still competition, between the Schitt Mjolnir 2 and Ragnarok, and the forthcoming Eddie Current Black Widow, and even Bryston's BHA-1.  I'm just hoping it will be sufficiently transparent enough to benefit from being connected to a top tier source.  As it's quite a price jump up from the iCan Micro.  I'm still holding out hope for Team iFi on this one, though.




I know what you're saying. I keep reminding myself, though, not because I want it to be, but what it's promised to be, that "Pro" is the operative word here. That yes, audio enthusiasts would benefit from the Pro series, but also iFi is striking for a different market, i.e. the pro audio market. That's not going to be everybody's bag, in the hi-fi heads might want their music too colored by the aforementioned crop. Thus, the ability for the Pro models to switch between SS and tubes.

I might be oversimplifying things, but that's my thoughts in a very tight nutshell.


----------



## murphythecat

will there still be a Mini iTube?


----------



## JWahl

murphythecat said:


> will there still be a Mini iTube?


 

 According to previous posts, the functionality of the iTube Pre has been rolled into the iCan Pro.


----------



## dharma

New interview with iFi, few words about coming ...


----------



## technobear

...and the User Manual:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_JxnM2KPwG4UFg0RXFraDlnM1k/view?usp=sharing

Looking good. Can't wait to here it.


----------



## DougD

from the Head Pie interview:
  
 "Outside these two flagship products are new additions to the nano series including the iUSB3.0 (asychronous audio+power USB repeater) and the micro iPHONO2."
  
 It's all a delicious conspiracy to keep my wallet flapping like a screen door in a hurricane. (Although iFi Audio products tend to offer great performance for the cost.)
  
 Please please please let the micro iPHONO2 have a USB-out to facilitate ripping vinyl to e-files, and a quality ADC.


----------



## EVOLVIST

Man,this thread is dead.

I assuming we're all waiting on a big announcement in and around the time of the Bristol show?


----------



## raybone0566

evolvist said:


> Man,this thread is dead.
> 
> I assuming we're all waiting on a big announcement in and around the time of the Bristol show?


Talked to Kate at ifi this morning. She said it's been backed up another 4 weeks. Looking more like April is what she said.


----------



## JootecFromMars

raybone0566 said:


> Talked to Kate at ifi this morning. She said it's been backed up another 4 weeks. Looking more like April is what she said.




Well you know what that means..... It's going to be 4 weeks more excellent


----------



## gr8soundz

4 weeks sounds like some Groundhog Day prediction.


----------



## Franatic

raybone0566 said:


> Talked to Kate at ifi this morning. She said it's been backed up another 4 weeks. Looking more like April is what she said.


 
 So do this mean that the idsd pro gets backed up as well.....again? It is hard to maintain excitement when the projected release keeps moving back. So now May/June becomes maybe July/August............hummm


----------



## canali

franatic said:


> So do this mean that the idsd pro gets backed up as well.....again? It is hard to maintain excitement when the projected release keeps moving back. So now May/June becomes maybe July/August............hummm


 
 i hear you...it's usually like that with any new product or service or opening.
 i sometimes add another 2-6mo to whatever ETA i'm given.


----------



## Maelob

At least we ddint pay ahead- i still have a sour taste of other companies crowd funding fiascos. i will continue to patiently wait for the release.


----------



## canali

maelob said:


> At least we ddint pay ahead- i still have a sour taste of other companies crowd funding fiascos. i will continue to patiently wait for the release.



yeah like LH labs, Geek out etc...sad...am sure the company didn't want that to happen...was on the V2+ thread tonight...those in receipt of that product are most happy, however which is great....hope the company can learn from it and turn things around...they really do seem to have great ideas and expertise.


----------



## EVOLVIST

franatic said:


> So do this mean that the idsd pro gets backed up as well.....again? It is hard to maintain excitement when the projected release keeps moving back. So now May/June becomes maybe July/August............hummm


 
  
 Let's see what iFi has to say, first. I know it's totally normal for things like this to happen. Nevertheless, disconcerting news is what it is.
  
 iFi gives a lot, though; so, I'm sure the product will be everything we've expected...and more. Only we're waiting _more_ time, to boot!


----------



## technobear

This is what happens when you want an element of crowd design in the product. The end game is a better product but you are exposed to all the caveats and gotchas of trying to produce a great design.

Plus the competition aren't standing still. Some outstanding products have been launched into this space recently and at very interesting prices. The projected prices for the Pro series are definitely on the high end for the specs we have been given so far. Perhaps it is not surprising that the product has had to evolve a little more.

Most manufacturers don't announce a new product until they have a stack of them in a warehouse ready to go. They have to hope that what they built is what the customer wants. Too often, it isn't. Shame that more manufacturers don't come and read these forums. They would then have a better idea of what features are required.


----------



## hugoboss

no problem just make sure it got the best component inside its kind pricey
 it's time for ifi to enter high end , step aside from the amr shadow
  
 i really have big hope for ifi recent product like
  
 ifi micro iusb 3
 ifi purifier 2
 ifi linear adapter
 last that shocked me is ifi dc purifier
  
 i think i will gget these all and the new dac if it suit my budget


----------



## technobear

hugoboss said:


> i think i will gget these all and the new dac if it suit my budget




Do you mean the iDSD Pro?

If so then the iUSB3.0 is not needed, nor is the iPurifier 2 as the iDSD Pro has full galvanic isolation on the USB input.


----------



## hugoboss

yeah i mean that pro dsd
 purifier2 maybe not needed but micro iusb 3 i think is a must for every dac regarding what brand


----------



## technobear

So did anyone go to Bristol today?


----------



## Dadracer

I guess no one has gone and even more strangely there is no news on the ifi Facebook page. Unless of course they are very busy and that would be a good sign.
  
 Maybe hear some feedback on Monday....................
  
 Hang on you are in Glastonbury which is only half an hour away from Bristol are you not attending????


----------



## technobear

dadracer said:


> Hang on you are in Glastonbury which is only half an hour away from Bristol are you not attending????




Half an hour? That would be quite a ride 

It takes an hour on the bus which by happy coincidence is exactly what I did today 

Great to see Vincent and Owen and Mike again. When are you guys gonna drag Thorsten along?

I have seen the iCAN Pro. It is real. It exists and so far as I can tell under show conditions it sounds fantastic (no surprise there).

The 3-stage XBASS (plus OFF) is just great. One of them is always just right.

Under show conditions I couldn't say much about the 3D. It seemed quite subtle, like the version in the iCAN SE but with more choices.

More obvious was the difference between solid state and tube (and tube+). No right or wrong here. It's going to depend on what you are listening to and how you expect to hear it. I think having the choice is great. I can imagine needing all three settings (but then I have 550 odd CDs covering a pretty broad swathe of genres).

The Pro was driving a pair of ENIGMAcoustics Dharma 1000 self-biasing electrostatic hybrid headphones. These I love. They are the first headphone in many a year to have me seriously questioning whether it is time to upgrade from the T1. They are quite a bit more expensive than a T1 and it took me a while to convince myself to spend that much on a headphone in the first place so I will probably procrastinate on these for a good long while. Very interested though. Very nice.


----------



## Dadracer

Good work sir..........It was a guess as it's only about 2 inches distance on my motoring atlas so I didn't think it would take too long.
  
 It sounds even more exciting than the specification details ifi posted a while back so I would be VERY interested to hear it for real.


----------



## gr8soundz

technobear said:


> I have seen the iCAN Pro. It is real. It exists and so far as I can tell under show conditions it sounds fantastic (no surprise there).
> 
> The 3-stage XBASS (plus OFF) is just great. One of them is always just right.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks for those insights.
  
 Haven't heard an electrostatic yet; dislike the idea of a mandatory matched amp. But the Dharma, as a hybrid that can work with any amp, has my attention. You implying they could be a step up from the T1 gives me hope that I'm on the right track. Only concern is I read it has paper dynamic drivers.
  
 Price may keep me from the iCAN Pro (and a TOTL headphone) but will try mimicking some of its features for a lot less money. Just got a balanced amp on clearance (now using iDSD Micro as preamp), added a 12V iPower to it, and plan to add an iTube later.


----------



## technobear

dadracer said:


> Good work sir..........It was a guess as it's only about 2 inches distance on my motoring atlas so I didn't think it would take too long.




You don't want to try it in rush hour. 90 minutes minimum to the centre of Bristol. 45 is doable when it's quiet.



dadracer said:


> It sounds even more exciting than the specification details ifi posted a while back so I would be VERY interested to hear it for real.




Yeah. I had my reservations about the photos but in the metal, it looks good.

It certainly has plenty of power. The Dharmas are 95dB and 26 ohm and it drove them to high levels. Sounded powerful and dynamic when required.

Kind of ironic that the iCAN Pro has a socket for an electrostatic headphone driver but they were demonstrating it with a self-biasing electrostatic headphone.


----------



## technobear

gr8soundz said:


> Only concern is I read it has paper dynamic drivers.




Paper is still one of the best diaphragm materials. It is stiff and self damping and breaks up/rings in a generally more benign fashion than many modern wonder materials. Some of the latter require alarmingly steep crossover slopes in order to sound good. The Dharma features a first order crossover. Plus this is no ordinary paper.

From what I heard you need have no fears about the bass performance.

I would normally instinctively recoil in horror at the suggestion of a headphone with a crossover but in this instance I didn't notice any lack of coherence or anything amiss with the timing.


----------



## gr8soundz

Thanks for the info. Not afraid of the bass. Just want a bigger leap than from my HD598 to the HD800 or T1.


----------



## rickyleelee

Pro can was it on demo only with the Darmas???? Any other headphones you tried? what was the dac feeding it? hope ok for these questions


----------



## technobear

rickyleelee said:


> Pro can was it on demo only with the Darmas???? Any other headphones you tried? what was the dac feeding it? hope ok for these questions




Yes I only listened to the Dharmas. It sounded so good I didn't think to try any of the others.

The DAC was, I think, a Lumin D1 streamer like this:

http://www.luminmusic.com/lumin-d1.html

Looks like the right one. If so, it's about UKP1600.


----------



## rickyleelee

thankyou for replies. my wife is not going to be happy if I demo the Pro can and darmas. oh no.


----------



## dharma

rickyleelee said:


> thankyou for replies. my wife is not going to be happy if I demo the Pro can and darmas. oh no.


 
  
 Some have almost same problem... yeah


----------



## technobear

I've been reading up on the Dharma 1000 today. I was told that it will cost UKP1199 but I am reading that in the States it costs USD1190 which would make it UKP960. It would appear that this headphone will be a complete rip-off in the UK so no further interest from me :mad:


----------



## JootecFromMars

technobear said:


> I've been reading up on the Dharma 1000 today. I was told that it will cost UKP1199 but I am reading that in the States it costs USD1190 which would make it UKP960. It would appear that this headphone will be a complete rip-off in the UK so no further interest from me


 
 And the same also goes for Oppo stuff.


----------



## Mr Creosote

I had listen to the Dharma and they do sound very good. Also checked on what the cost would be from the US. They are around $1200 so I checked with the bank and they said it would cost me £875 @ a rate of 1.37 as this is what they would give me today plus £20 transfer fee.Checked the shipping cost and seems to be around £50 so you have £875+£20+ £50 total £945 then you have 20% and 5% duty. So the total is £1175. So I think I will have another listen and see if the UK dealer will match the price I guess he will as it is only £25 and if anything goes wrong I still have service in the UK and less hassle.


----------



## technobear

I guess with the Pound being deliberately devalued by the Elites in order to try to scare us into staying in the **** **** **** **** **** **** that is the EU, now is a bad time to be personally importing anything into the UK.


----------



## Mr Creosote

There is going to be lots of scaremongering to get the vote to stay in the EU.As the GBP is weakening we have to just hope it does not go to far as all imports will increase in price and we import lots including a large percentage of our food.On a positive side I will loose some weight as I will have to cut out the wafer thin mint.


----------



## oldson

is there a solid release date for the pro yet?
 it seems to be dragging its arse!


----------



## Mr Creosote

Well I was advised at the show it would be in the UK in April.


----------



## oldson

thanks
 it may be out of my price range though.


----------



## Franatic

oldson said:


> is there a solid release date for the pro yet?
> it seems to be dragging its arse!


 
 I have been following this thread for a long time, about 2 years. Originally the pro was going to be a mini idsd. There have been so many pullbacks and restarts it is hard to have faith in any possible launch date.
  
 Now the only product ifi seems to discuss here is the ican. There has been no sighting lately of an idsd pro proyotype and not even a whisper about it from ifi for months. I have been very patient waiting for this product.
  
 I am losing ability to wait as there are tasty choices appearing lately. I hope ifi will let us know it is coming...soon


----------



## Dadracer

I'm sure I heard that it was scheduled for the summer. Have you asked folks at ifi Audio directly?


----------



## gr8soundz

Pro iCan now shows shipping in 2-3 weeks on musicdirect:
  
 http://www.musicdirect.com/p-364754-ifi-pro-ican-headphone-amp.aspx
  
 Most other new iFi stuff there still shows 4-6 weeks (like the iPurifier2 I'm still waiting for).


----------



## raybone0566

gr8soundz said:


> Pro iCan now shows shipping in 2-3 weeks on musicdirect:
> 
> http://www.musicdirect.com/p-364754-ifi-pro-ican-headphone-amp.aspx
> 
> Most other new iFi stuff there still shows 4-6 weeks (like the iPurifier2 I'm still waiting for).


That's been listed like that for months. I believe they'll post info here.


----------



## gr8soundz

raybone0566 said:


> That's been listed like that for months. I believe they'll post info here.


 
  
 I believe it showed 4-6 weeks originally. Still not available yet but at least the listed wait time has decreased.


----------



## hifial

Just FYI. I got this reply from iFi/AMR over at Computer Audiophile to my questions on ETA and price.
  
  
 "The iDSD Pro is expected in June. It is possible that the prototype makes it for Munich in May.
   The MSRP is still at the moment expected to be US$2,000 (ex-tax) but this is our best guess until the features are confirmed."
  
 If we see a prototype at Munich and the info about it is favorable then that should give us a better handle on a June (or July) availability.


----------



## oldson

franatic said:


> I have been following this thread for a long time, about 2 years. Originally the pro was going to be a mini idsd. There have been so many pullbacks and restarts it is hard to have faith in any possible launch date.
> 
> Now the only product ifi seems to discuss here is the ican. There has been no sighting lately of an idsd pro proyotype and not even a whisper about it from ifi for months. I have been very patient waiting for this product.
> 
> I am losing ability to wait as there are tasty choices appearing lately. I hope ifi will let us know it is coming...soon


 
 i have looked at a few alternatives from the likes of marantz,ayre,audiolab,chord and teac but the most tempting for me is the aune s16.
 dont want to take the plunge and then find i wish i had waited.
 what has taken your eye?


----------



## oldson

hifial said:


> Just FYI. I got this reply from iFi/AMR over at Computer Audiophile to my questions on ETA and price.
> 
> 
> "The iDSD Pro is expected in June. It is possible that the prototype makes it for Munich in May.
> ...


 
 cheers for that.
 it may be beyond me. US$2000 usually equates to £2000 , despite the exchange rate.
 my budget was up to £1500, preferably much less!


----------



## raybone0566

hifial said:


> Just FYI. I got this reply from iFi/AMR over at Computer Audiophile to my questions on ETA and price.
> 
> 
> "The iDSD Pro is expected in June. It is possible that the prototype makes it for Munich in May.
> ...


I believe we were discussing the pro Ican, not the idsd.


----------



## raybone0566

oldson said:


> cheers for that.
> it may be beyond me. US$2000 usually equates to £2000 , despite the exchange rate.
> my budget was up to £1500, preferably much less!


The Ican pro is priced at 1699.00, you should be just fine


----------



## oldson

raybone0566 said:


> The Ican pro is priced at 1699.00, you should be just fine


 
 its not the ican i'm after.
 looking for an upgrade on my micro idsd, which i use only as a dac.


----------



## Franatic

oldson said:


> its not the ican i'm after.
> looking for an upgrade on my micro idsd, which i use only as a dac.


 
 Same here. The micro idsd has performed admirably as my dac, but I am seriously ready to upgrade. All along I was prepared for $1500, which is the price that we heard. That it has escalated to $2000 or more is a big jump. Not happy about that, it is now 4X the price of the micro


----------



## hifial

raybone0566 said:


> I believe we were discussing the pro Ican, not the idsd.


 

 Well some were also asking about the iDSD Pro.
  
 Price wise I was hoping it would be around $1,500 USD but after seeing the iCan at $1,699 USD I figured the iDSD Pro would sell for more, especially since it sounds like it may have more features. 
  
 But speaking about the iCAN, I was also told that the iCan should see the light of day in April (USA, not sure that is world wide).


----------



## sandalaudio

oldson said:


> its not the ican i'm after.
> looking for an upgrade on my micro idsd, which i use only as a dac.


 
  
 This might sound a bit stupid, but I ended up buying the micro iDAC2 + Gemini cable exactly for this reason.
  
 My micro iDSD was mostly used as a line out DAC for 90% of the time, but was taken off once in a while for portable duties, so I wanted something dedicated to USB Line out purposes.
  
 micro iDAC2 being cheaper than iDSD, I thought the sound will not be as good, or identical (since it uses the same DAC chip etc), but it turned out that the micro iDAC2 had a lot more clarity and openness in the bass compared to the iDSD's line out. It was a definite upgrade.
  
 I guess the lack of onboard battery or a powerful headphone amp circuit means the majority of the cost is dedicated to line out purposes.
  
 Now I wish if I had that iFi rack thing, but it's super expensive.


----------



## Peaceofmind

Is the up coming iDSD Pro a Delta Sigma DAC?


----------



## technobear

peaceofmind said:


> Is the up coming iDSD Pro a Delta Sigma DAC?




http://www.head-fi.org/t/711217/idsd-micro-crowd-design-the-meaty-monsters-are-flying-out-page-95/60#post_10404689 

http://www.head-fi.org/t/711217/idsd-micro-crowd-design-the-meaty-monsters-are-flying-out-page-95/840#post_10641478


----------



## EVOLVIST

Sigh


----------



## Franatic

Do I hear crickets??


----------



## bmoura

Looks like a June 2016 release date for the iDSD Pro:
  


> The iCAN Pro is out early April.
> The iDSD Pro is not imminent. The iDSD Pro is expected in June. It is possible that the prototype makes it for Munich in May.
> The MSRP is still at the moment expected to be US$2,000 (ex-tax) but this is our best guess until the features are confirmed.
> On the marketing side, the full specs are not released to us until close to the launch - like the iCAN Pro we have had to wait.


 
  
 http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f30-abbingdon-music-research-ifi-audio-sponsored/idsd-pro-25523/index2.html#post520220


----------



## KmanChu

I got a chance to hear the iCAN Pro a few weeks ago in Charlotte. Avatar Acoustics was there and demoing with the Hifman HE-1000 and the AMR-DP777. The iCAN pro is a very good amp and it sounded marvelous with the HEK. I didn't compare side by side with other amps with the same headphones and source, but needless to say I was very impressed. They were only running it SE but I would have loved to hear it balanced. The form factor is a very nice size, it is still small, but not too small, it doesn't feel cramped like the other iFi lines. Pairing with a top flight headphone like the HEK was perfectly reasonable.


----------



## Whitigir

I love the IFI IDSD micro, and can't help but wonder how good this Pro ICAN will be. Especially with balanced


----------



## zeissiez

kmanchu said:


> I got a chance to hear the iCAN Pro a few weeks ago in Charlotte. Avatar Acoustics was there and demoing with the Hifman HE-1000 and the AMR-DP777. The iCAN pro is a very good amp and it sounded marvelous with the HEK. I didn't compare side by side with other amps with the same headphones and source, but needless to say I was very impressed. They were only running it SE but I would have loved to hear it balanced. The form factor is a very nice size, it is still small, but not too small, it doesn't feel cramped like the other iFi lines. Pairing with a top flight headphone like the HEK was perfectly reasonable.




From my experience with a couple of amps which offered both SE and BAL out, the HEK benefits greatly from SE to BAL


----------



## gr8soundz

Just found some decent (but silent) unboxing AND teardown videos of the iCan Pro. Looks like iFi's usual innovation inside and out. I really want this amp but the cost.......
  
 What I noticed was the laptop style power brick. It says iPower Plus and (from what I could make out) is 15V 4A. Also noticed circuitry for the analog/tube stage appears to be on the underside of the mainboard.


----------



## raybone0566

Just received message from Kate @ ifi. She said global launch should be by end of April. Evidently she said the hold up was the silk printing on the units. They wanted it to be more legible.


----------



## rickyleelee

The inside looks retty full of pats. no spaces anywhere. i was worried they would hide the micro ican se in there with itube or sometihng.


----------



## Whitigir

rickyleelee said:


> The inside looks retty full of pats. no spaces anywhere. i was worried they would hide the micro ican se in there with itube or sometihng.




The inside look damn good, and every resistors appeared to be high-end stuff. I am not surprised at the price, and it looked to be the size of IPad mini ?


----------



## JWahl

rickyleelee said:


> The inside looks retty full of pats. no spaces anywhere. i was worried they would hide the micro ican se in there with itube or sometihng.


 

 Nope, one thing that's always impressed me is how they utilize the maximum of the given space.  Same with the iDSD Micro, the enclosure is packed to the brim.  Some great PCB engineering going on.  From the video, it seems at least the long top board is dedicated to power supply duty.


----------



## hugoboss

one thing surprise me, in the back i see hdmi port in the video of unboxing i pro can.
 is it hdmi i2s input?
 if its hdmi i2s input then it will be so damn great, can it be used as dac?


----------



## technobear

hugoboss said:


> one thing surprise me, in the back i see hdmi port in the video of unboxing i pro can.
> is it hdmi i2s input?
> if its hdmi i2s input then it will be so damn great, can it be used as dac?




No. It is the socket for the electrostatic adaptor.


----------



## Trogdor

technobear said:


> No. It is the socket for the electrostatic adaptor.




Of course that begs the question now what the SR-009 will sound like with it. Could this be a Blue Hawaii killer?


----------



## rickyleelee

jwahl said:


> Nope, one thing that's always impressed me is how they utilize the maximum of the given space.  Same with the iDSD Micro, the enclosure is packed to the brim.  Some great PCB engineering going on.  From the video, it seems at least the long top board is dedicated to power supply duty.




Do you know any circuitry? Is there any way this is iCAN se with itube thrown in there? I would be pissed if they did that. After all this time and they just threw two existing pcbs together


----------



## Whitigir

rickyleelee said:


> Do you know any circuitry? Is there any way this is iCAN se with itube thrown in there? I would be pissed if they did that. After all this time and they just threw two existing pcbs together




I think the Itube is Single Ended on the input and the Output as well, where as the Pro Ican has balanced connection. Therefore, the preamp and amp stages are designed different, possibly with different components and power support as well....that means it is a different product


----------



## Topspin70

I'm using the iCan SE + iTube. They don't have balance in and out, nor selectable tube hybrid or SS like the iCan Pro does.


----------



## Whitigir

Here is the Itube picture, which contains single tube and not Dual tube like Pro ICAN. Also as confirmed above. This is a problem when there is demand for Transportable device with proper Balanced connections.....and it is still not made by IFI. Sad !


----------



## KmanChu

rickyleelee said:


> Do you know any circuitry? Is there any way this is iCAN se with itube thrown in there? I would be pissed if they did that. After all this time and they just threw two existing pcbs together


 

 What would make you think that this is the case here? Are any of the nano and micro lines exactly the same?
  
 I have heard the Pro and the SE/iTube next to each other at an Avatar demo table, and they are certainly not the same. They SE is nice enough for what it is, but the Pro is leaps and bounds better, in completely different league.


----------



## Whitigir

kmanchu said:


> What would make you think that this is the case here? Are any of the nano and micro lines exactly the same?
> 
> I have heard the Pro and the SE/iTube next to each other at an Avatar demo table, and they are certainly not the same. They SE is nice enough for what it is, but the Pro is leaps and bounds better, in completely different league.




It should be as the price that it is


----------



## bmoura

rickyleelee said:


> Do you know any circuitry? Is there any way this is iCAN se with itube thrown in there? I would be pissed if they did that. After all this time and they just threw two existing pcbs together


 

 That's not the case according to iFi:  


> 1.  A comparison of the PCBs between the machines shows they are totally different!
> 2.  The functionality is not the same either – Studio grade headphone amp+Audiophile line stage in the Pro iCAN
> 
> eg. The Pro iCAN runs to 14,000mW and is fully-balanced. The iCAN and iTUBE are single-ended. Totally different circuitry.


----------



## Topspin70

Good heavens. 14000mw! My iCan SE is 'only' 4000 and I use it at mid gain.


----------



## rickyleelee

bmoura said:


> That's not the case according to iFi:




holy cow then this machine is a BEAST. Now let's audition. I am researching more this for my hard core hk headphone philes friends on local forum. I have the retro and it keeps the wife and girl happy.


----------



## EVOLVIST

If this can replace my SPL Auditor I will be happy, indeed. Not that I want to spend money on a new product, nor am I unhappy with the Auditor; still, for a long, long time I've been waiting in the Pro series, with my eye on the iDSD Pro, and with everything promised I simply have to give the iCAN Pro a try for starters.


----------



## Franatic

I'm getting bored with ifi not giving us anything to keep our appetites whetted on the idsd pro. I started scanning dsd dacs around $2000 and found one that intriques me. It is the Wyred 4 Sound DAC-2 DSDse. $1500 basic but it is upgradable and futureproof. I would get it loaded. There is much to like about it and I don't have to buy in on a head phone amp I don't need, which is something surely gonna happen with the idsd pro. Very nice package and very good reviews.
  
 I recently purchased the W4S USB Recovery which really impressed me and brought their company into my sights. Still will wait on the idsd pro, but getting itchy, especially since I see something else I really like.


----------



## Trogdor

franatic said:


> I'm getting bored with ifi not giving us anything to keep our appetites whetted on the idsd pro. I started scanning dsd dacs around $2000 and found one that intriques me. It is the Wyred 4 Sound DAC-2 DSDse. $1500 basic but it is upgradable and futureproof. I would get it loaded. There is much to like about it and I don't have to buy in on a head phone amp I don't need, which is something surely gonna happen with the idsd pro. Very nice package and very good reviews.
> 
> I recently purchased the W4S USB Recovery which really impressed me and brought their company into my sights. Still will wait on the idsd pro, but getting itchy, especially since I see something else I really like.




I rather they be working on these products than updating this thread. But that's just me.

I'm sure when the iCAN PRO is released sometime this month, iFI will have plenty to say.


----------



## bluesaint

@iFi audio will the ican pro include phase splitter for RCA input to make it into balance signal?


----------



## Trogdor

bluesaint said:


> @iFi audio
> will the ican pro include phase splitter for RCA input to make it into balance signal?




Why would you need that? Convenience?


----------



## technobear

bluesaint said:


> @iFi audio
> will the ican pro include phase splitter for RCA input to make it into balance signal?




As it is a fully balanced design, it would have to do this.


----------



## iFi audio

bluesaint said:


> @iFi audio will the ican pro include phase splitter for RCA input to make it into balance signal?


 
  
 It is included, in a special way so that instead of splitting phase, the positive signal always passes directly and only the (missing on RCA) negative signal phase is inverted, with a direct coupled single stage open loop circuit. 
  
 This means that if running single-ended in -> single-ended out no extra circuitry is added and for single-ended in -> balanced out the single ended signal is stepped up to balanced with least possible degradation.
  
 Of course, it also means that balanced in -> balanced out signals only pass a single stage of gain without any added electronics or stages.


----------



## Whitigir

ifi audio said:


> It is included, in a special way so that instead of splitting phase, the positive signal always passes directly and only the (missing on RCA) negative signal phase is inverted, with a direct coupled single stage open loop circuit.
> 
> This means that if running single-ended in -> single-ended out no extra circuitry is added and for single-ended in -> balanced out the single ended signal is stepped up to balanced with least possible degradation.
> 
> Of course, it also means that balanced in -> balanced out signals only pass a single stage of gain without any added electronics or stages.




Wooooohhh !! This will be such an awesome device


----------



## bluesaint

whitigir said:


> Wooooohhh !! This will be such an awesome device


 
 Yep.  With only funds for either ican pro or idsd pro, and not both, I'm trying to decide which one to get.
  
 Option1:  idsd micro -> i can pro
 Option2:  idsd pro only
  
 Given there's lack of info on idsd pro at this point, and ican pro supporting phase splitting, means option 1 probably sounds more feasible.


----------



## Dadracer

bluesaint said:


> whitigir said:
> 
> 
> > Wooooohhh !! This will be such an awesome device
> ...


 
 There is a 3rd option. iDAC2 to iCAN Pro which would save you more funds........


----------



## Topspin70

I was told by the ifi dealer that the iDSD has dual chip and hence a better sounding DAC section than the iDAC. Any idea if this is indeed the case?


----------



## bluesaint

topspin70 said:


> I was told by the ifi dealer that the iDSD has dual chip and hence a better sounding DAC section than the iDAC. Any idea if this is indeed the case?


 
  
 iDAC 2 is a single BB dac chip, and iDSD is dual BB dac chip.  However, because there isn't a battery inside the iDAC2, there's supposedly better soundquality to be had from iDAC2.
  
 I already have iDSD and the main advantage of dual BB chip is ability to perform DSD 512 that the iDAC2 isn't able to.


----------



## Topspin70

Oic. It's more for DSD files. I don't have a lot of those but they sound pretty good and natural even when I bring them down to PCM for playback.


----------



## bluesaint

topspin70 said:


> Oic. It's more for DSD files. I don't have a lot of those but they sound pretty good and natural even when I bring them down to PCM for playback.


 
 Not just for file.  Most people listen to DSD 256 to 512 as realtime upsample from lower res or compressed formats.  Basically, makes bunch of older recordings that was crap listenable.  Use software players such as jriver media player, hqplayer, etc..


----------



## Whitigir

bluesaint said:


> Not just for file.  Most people listen to DSD 256 to 512 as realtime upsample from lower res or compressed formats.  Basically, makes bunch of older recordings that was crap listenable.  Use software players such as jriver media player, hqplayer, etc..




Up sampling is never recommended


----------



## Fink24

topspin70 said:


> I was told by the ifi dealer that the iDSD has dual chip and hence a better sounding DAC section than the iDAC. Any idea if this is indeed the case?


 
  
 Here is a quote from IFI from the IDAC2 thread:
  


ifi audio said:


> Sound quality is frighteningly close. So you can spend less and go for iDAC2 and not lose on SQ. Later on, more important is better ancillaries such as iP2 and Gemini which benefits all dacs.
> 
> More important consideration is if you are 90% desktop, then go iDAC2. If you are 50% desktop/50% portable, then got to be micro iDSD.
> 
> Cheers.


----------



## Topspin70

More a choice of portability vs desktop then. I could use a good portable DAC. Now if only ifi builds a portable source transport too. (Hint hint ifi)


----------



## EVOLVIST

whitigir said:


> Up sampling is never recommended


 
  
 Tis true. However, I think they're talking about upsampling crap MP3s and the like, trying to squeeze the best sound out of lossy files. I don't really have any MP3s, so I wouldn't know, but I've upsampled with lossless files and I didn't like what I heard.


----------



## Trogdor

bluesaint said:


> iDAC 2 is a single BB dac chip, and iDSD is dual BB dac chip.  However, because there isn't a battery inside the iDAC2, there's supposedly better soundquality to be had from iDAC2.
> 
> I already have iDSD and the main advantage of dual BB chip is ability to perform DSD 512 that the iDAC2 isn't able to.




Having a truly fully balanced signal chain throughout the iDSD PRO is what I suspect iFi is really after.


----------



## EVOLVIST

trogdor said:


> Having a truly fully balanced signal chain throughout the iDSD PRO is what I suspect iFi is really after.




Yeah, I can't believe I've actually been going this long with an unbalanced signal. True, I've been enjoying the iDSD micro for nearly two years, but running RCA to XLR to the back of my HP amp has never been optimal. I even have dual XLR cables for my HD800s that I don't really get to use.

I suspect you tried the iCAN Pro?


----------



## Whitigir

Oh man, I keep telling IFI if there is a "micro IDSD pro" or the balanced version, I think it will sell like a "hot cake"


----------



## Trogdor

evolvist said:


> Yeah, I can't believe I've actually been going this long with an unbalanced signal. True, I've been enjoying the iDSD micro for nearly two years, but running RCA to XLR to the back of my HP amp has never been optimal. I even have dual XLR cables for my HD800s that I don't really get to use.
> 
> I suspect you tried the iCAN Pro?




I have. But I don't want to spoil iFi's thunder.

Let's just say, right now, it's the quiet before the storm. I think the PRO series is going to be very special indeed.


----------



## Whitigir

trogdor said:


> I have. But I don't want to spoil iFi's thunder.
> 
> Let's just say, right now, it's the quiet before the storm. I think the PRO series is going to be very special indeed.




Won't be surprised if it turned out to be the top desktop class


----------



## iFi audio

iFi USA *Official distribution handover*
  

  
  
  
 Southport, UK – 18th April 2016
  
*iFi has taken over distribution from Avatar Acoustics**.*
  
 AMR/iFi would like to thank Avatar Acoustics for their immense contribution since 2007. The new launches, product awards and national dealer network is second-to-none. Avatar Acoustics will always remain much respected.
  
 iFi USA; a wholly-owned subsidiary of AMR/iFi will handle the expanding retail network and all the demands hitherto required of such a major operation. It is fully committed to serving our customers as we enter the next growth phase.
  
 For further details, please email admin@ifi-audio.com


----------



## TheOneInYellow

A Polish review of the iFi Pro iCan is up.

Prepare your wallets, and apologies in advance:

Hifiphilosophy.com- Review: ifi PRO iCAN (by Karol Ryka?)


----------



## Whitigir

theoneinyellow said:


> A Polish review of the iFi Pro iCan is up.
> 
> Prepare your wallets, and apologies in advance:
> 
> Hifiphilosophy.com- Review: ifi PRO iCAN (by Karol Ryka?)




I read it no problem at all, but  If only I could understand the language


----------



## TheOneInYellow

whitigir said:


> I read it no problem at all, but  If only I could understand the language




BAHAHAHAHA, lol.

I used Google translate 

I spoke to the guy who posted this on FB. Not only was he Polish himself but the way he spoke hinted that he might actually be the reviewer!

His enthusiasm for this amp, and from my own background hands-on experience with the iFi Retro Stereo 50 (a precursor for sure), the Pro iCan is an efficient, agile *MONSTER*.

iFi Audio might have outdone themselves...

I'm also interested in the Pro iDSD but if I can save up for the Pro iCan, I could use my Onkyo DP-X1 as source and a DHC balanced interconnect...

Just need to rob a bank or something...


----------



## Whitigir

When is pro IDSD coming ? Any news on it


----------



## bmoura

theoneinyellow said:


> BAHAHAHAHA, lol.
> 
> I used Google translate
> 
> ...


 
  
 And the iDSD Pro will play DSD natively while the Onkyo DP-X1 does a PCM conversion before playback.
 A key difference there.


----------



## Trogdor

whitigir said:


> When is pro IDSD coming ? Any news on it




June.


----------



## TheOneInYellow

bmoura said:


> And the iDSD Pro will play DSD natively while the Onkyo DP-X1 does a PCM conversion before playback.
> A key difference there.




Though true, the argument for or against native DSD is very complex.

Native DSD Delta-Sigma SOC means you rely everything on that chip and it's capabilities.
Non-native D/S gives greater advantages for post/pre-ringing, filters, etc, that a native chip(s) may not have.
R2R is just bonkers and cool.

All are correct, but depends on how the user appreciates each tech.

This topic shouldn't be discussed here but I recommend reading up on pro's and con's of native DSD conversion.

Just to add, here is *my post* of this subject that I posted in the Onkyo DP-X1 thread, and my source of info was *Rob Watts post* from another thread. Yes, _that_ Watts, from Chord Audio.

Just to clarify, I'm amorphous and love R2R, Delta-Sigma and Native D/S solutions; all about implementation and musical awesomeness.

^^


----------



## TheOneInYellow

trogdor said:


> June.




Thanks for the date, will add to calendar.

I really want both but can live with the Pro iCan and use my Onkyo DP-X1 as a balanced line-out source via a DHC balanced interconnect.

That's my dream.

However...to have both Pro iCan and iDSD...


----------



## EVOLVIST

whitigir said:


> I read it no problem at all, but
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yeah, even with the Google translator I could barely understand a quarter of it. Still, whatever the language, big props to the reviewer, because you can tell he put a lot of time and effort into this review.  My favorite parts of the review:
  


> "AMR by the way refers to some German studies, that feeling of happiness with the presence of a lamp is the intensification of falling and the number of suicides..."


 
  
 and...
  


> "Finally, note that using handsets unbalanced better Pony Prog them in the right nostril, although you can also use two pairs and nothing of this will happen."


 
  
 So, in sum, finally an amp I won't kill myself over, and one that will please all of my sense, including, for the first time, my right nostril!


----------



## EVOLVIST

theoneinyellow said:


> Though true, the argument for or against native DSD is very complex.
> 
> Native DSD Delta-Sigma SOC means you rely everything on that chip and it's capabilities.
> Non-native D/S gives greater advantages for post/pre-ringing, filters, etc, that a native chip(s) may not have.
> ...


 
  
 I appreciate your stance, i.e. don't advocate one implementation over the other just for the hell of it. However, I might direct you to some posts from iFi - and if I'm understanding correctly (and I won't guarantee that I am - the burr-brown chip does not convert internally.
  
http://www.head-fi.org/t/711217/idsd-micro-crowd-designed-and-the-new-firmware-flavours-are-here-page-138/690#post_10617050
  
http://www.head-fi.org/t/702376/ifi-audio-pro-desktop-line-discussion-thread/720#post_11864881
  
 I read this as iFi's chip implantation is a hybrid of sorts, using multi-bit for certain bits and delta-sigma for others. It is not so easily classified to the layman (like me, though I'm always gaining more knowledge).
  
 That said, I have way, way, way more PCM files than DSD. Still, for the DSD and DXD files that I have, just from the ol'-ear-test, the major draw for me, when it comes to DSD, is iFi's analog filters on the iDSD micro. When I'm using the middle setting, the "Extended" filter, whether it's some sort of audio voodoo or whatever, nothing beats the clarity.
  
 With the iDSD Pro now having 2 chips per channel - everything balanced - my expectations (and rightfully so) is for this thing to break the sound barrier.


----------



## bmoura

Quote:


theoneinyellow said:


> Though true, the argument for or against native DSD is very complex.
> 
> Just to add, here is *my post* of this subject that I posted in the Onkyo DP-X1 thread, and my source of info was *Rob Watts post* from another thread. Yes, _that_ Watts, from Chord Audio.


  
 And then we have the comments on the Rob Watts technology by Jussi Laako from HQ Player/Signalyst on the Computer Audiophile forum....


----------



## sdolezalek

I'll take iFi (AMR), Jussi and Brian (bmoura -- yes that Brian from NativeDSD ) vs Rob Watts any day...  Actually, there seems to be growing evidence that feeding a Delta Sigma chip a DSD512 input stream and using the right filters can achieve pretty amazing results.  Rob and Chord have gone the other direction and achieved amazing things with their "Dave" but my guess is that the iDSD Pro will come very very close in sound quality at a substantially lower price (when fed DSD512 input from software like HQPlayer).


----------



## Esprit

We've been waiting the iFi iDSD Pro from too much time: here's an interesting NEW product (1400 €):


----------



## Whitigir

That is still only a show case , and not released yet


----------



## EVOLVIST

esprit said:


> We've been waiting the iFi iDSD Pro from too much time: here's an interesting NEW product (1400 €):


 
  
 Man, for real, it's been the same amount of time that the Schiit people were waiting for their new Schiit, the Yggy. I know there are a lot of companies vying for our money, and hey, I'm not a patient person, but I'll be damned if I'm one of those poor schlubs who doesn't hold out for what I really want, and then I'm crying all over my new cookie-cutter DAC, later, when everybody else is enjoying the Pro series.


----------



## Esprit

whitigir said:


> That is still only a show case , and not released yet


 
 Meantime it costs less


----------



## Esprit

First post of this thread: 30/01/2014
 For an elephant 20-21 months are sufficient to give birth a baby elephant... iFi WAKE UP!!!


----------



## Whitigir

Lol, let them take time. Wiuld you rather have the bugs on your gears, or let them take time and work it out


----------



## Dadracer

esprit said:


> First post of this thread: 30/01/2014
> For an elephant 20-21 months are sufficient to give birth a baby elephant... iFi WAKE UP!!!


 
 In fairness they have launched quite a number of new products (it could be 10 or more) in this period so you cannot claim their gestation period has been so long.


----------



## Esprit

This thread is about iFi Pro (DAC), please read the first post (2014).
 We are not talking about iFi production...


----------



## Esprit

[...]But compared to previous years, I noticed far fewer new introductions of DACs and related digital products. I wondered why, until I asked myself (and others) two important questions: 1) Would you, as a manufacturer, bring out a premium DAC that was not MQA compatible? 2) Would you, as a consumer, buy a high-performance DAC that lacked potential MQA capabilities? The answers I heard were unanimously no![...]
 http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/steven-stones-2016-axpona-show-report/
 MQA on iFi iDSD Pro?


----------



## john57

I failed to see any advantage of MQA.


----------



## Dadracer

It is about the 


esprit said:


> This thread is about iFi Pro (DAC), please read the first post (2014).
> We are not talking about iFi production...


 
 Yes thanks I understand that, but I was making the comment on the basis that one thing will affect another in a company the size of ifi Audio. It seems unlikely that they have a whole department devoted to the Pro product line and so their other products have for whatever reason pushed this device/product line back down the queue.


----------



## Esprit

I'm waiting the Ferrari, I'm not interested in a new version of 500 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 Who announced, with picture, the new Ferrari?


----------



## EVOLVIST

esprit said:


> First post of this thread: 30/01/2014
> For an elephant 20-21 months are sufficient to give birth a baby elephant... iFi WAKE UP!!!


 
  
 Perhaps it takes a bit longer to give birth to a fully grown elephant, huh?


----------



## Esprit

We have the iFi micro, we miss the "fully grown" version


----------



## JWahl

esprit said:


> First post of this thread: 30/01/2014
> For an elephant 20-21 months are sufficient to give birth a baby elephant... iFi WAKE UP!!!


 

 Yes, hopefully soon.  I started this thread over 2 years ago and still following.  Mostly still curious about how the iCan Pro will perform.  In the meantime, I'm enjoying my new DIY amp.  
  
 Hoping some loaners will go around when it's officially released.  I'd love to compare the two.  The flexibility of the iCan Pro seems enticing, but of course, sound is most important.


----------



## bmoura

john57 said:


> I failed to see any advantage of MQA.


 

 My experience is the same with MQA.  It reduces the file size of music for use with streaming services with lossy compression and other processing.
 Now that we can enjoy music with uncompressed 24/96 and DSD 64 and above files, MQA is a musical step backwards to the days of AC-3 and DTS to my ears.
  
 No thanks to MQA here.  I'll stay with the uncompressed and unprocessed music of 24/96 and DSD 64 and above. 
  
 Sidenote: a couple of recording engineers I asked about MQA recently expressed concerns about how it "mucks up" their recordings.
 Apparently going back to the lossy compression days is not something they want to see.  As always, the marketplace will decide.


----------



## JuleZ3C

I guess the iDSD Pro has been delayed (again) 'cause iFi's been waiting for the new XMOS chip (XU208) to be released and since then worked their asses off in order to custom-code the hell outta it !


----------



## EVOLVIST

julez3c said:


> I guess the iDSD Pro has been delayed (again) 'cause iFi's been waiting for the new XMOS chip (XU208) to be released and since then worked their asses off in order to custom-code the hell outta it !


 
  
 Is this just a guess, or do you doe you know this for a fact?


----------



## gr8soundz

julez3c said:


> I guess the iDSD Pro has been delayed (again) 'cause iFi's been waiting for the new XMOS chip (XU208) to be released and since then worked their asses off in order to custom-code the hell outta it !


 
  
 Good. Better to wait a little longer an make it a bit more future proof.
  
 I dislike seeing new products with previous generation chips, especially if they're priced at a premium (iDSD Pro will be about $2K).
  
 Such as new DACs with last-gen chips like the ES9018 and AK4490 when the newer ES9028/9038 and AK4495 chips are available.


----------



## technobear

gr8soundz said:


> julez3c said:
> 
> 
> > I guess the iDSD Pro has been delayed (again) 'cause iFi's been waiting for the new XMOS chip (XU208) to be released and since then worked their asses off in order to custom-code the hell outta it !
> ...




As iFi Audio have explained before, newer isn't always better. The very successful nano and micro ranges are based on what you would call an older generation chip, the Burr Brown DSD1793, and sound all the better for it.


----------



## gr8soundz

technobear said:


> As iFi Audio have explained before, *newer isn't always better*. The very successful nano and micro ranges are based on what you would call an older generation chip, the Burr Brown DSD1793, and sound all the better for it.


 
  
 I often say the exact same and it is true. But we're talking about the Xmos chip that (from my understanding) handles usb for the iDSD. Implementation is just as important (if not more) as choosing the right parts (as iFi did the Burr Brown chips). Certainly the new chip has more capabilities that iFi can exploit. Otherwise, they would've stuck with the current chip.


----------



## Trogdor

julez3c said:


> I guess the iDSD Pro has been delayed (again) 'cause iFi's been waiting for the new XMOS chip (XU208) to be released and since then worked their asses off in order to custom-code the hell outta it !




I believe the XU208 is out now.


----------



## Whitigir

IFI dedicated into R&D for their products are no jokes. Their products really do carry the outstanding performance/price ratio. With the previous posts about how they are waiting for new chips which can be an improvements to the Pro Ican, they have my most respect as a dedicated hi-fi company....unlike many other companies who would make half-asses products and rip people off on hypes


----------



## JuleZ3C

In all fairness, it was (a not sot so wild I think, but still) a guess. And a way to test your reactions (and iFi's).
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I've done the same when the Regen got out, when multibit schiits got released... It's going rather fast these last months and I can't imagine what it's like to have announced a product months too early ! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 But I'm confident iFi's gonna get through it and offer us a remarkable device, well worth the wait.
  
 (@ Trogdor : XU208 has been out there for a whole year now! one in the product line even have an integrated DAC!)


----------



## Trogdor

julez3c said:


> In all fairness, it was (a not sot so wild I think, but still) a guess. And a way to test your reactions (and iFi's).
> I've done the same when the Regen got out, when multibit schiits got released... It's going rather fast these last months and I can't imagine what it's like to have announced a product months too early ! :veryevil:
> But I'm confident iFi's gonna get through it and offer us a remarkable device, well worth the wait.
> 
> (@ Trogdor : XU208 has been out there for a whole year now! one in the product line even have an integrated DAC!)




On the DIY boards, I see that most have been experimenting with devkits only in the last few months/weeks.

Anyway, I can't wait for this new stuff from iFi. I'm sure it is going to be spectacular given the time and energy in involved.


----------



## EVOLVIST

Well, it's already what we would consider the end of April, yet no word from iFi.


----------



## Whitigir

Are we starting to wait in line like apple products now ? Lol


----------



## EVOLVIST

whitigir said:


> Are we starting to wait in line like apple products now ? Lol




iPhone, iCAN, iPad, iTube, iPod, iDAC...it's a selfish world, and I want it NOW!


----------



## Esprit

technobear said:


> As iFi Audio have explained before, newer isn't always better. The very successful nano and micro ranges are based on what you would call an older generation chip, the Burr Brown DSD1793, and sound all the better for it.


 
 +1


----------



## JerseyD

iFi has just sent an update to us dealers, saying,
    "A lot of people have been asking about the iDSD Pro! Rest assured, we are working very hard to bring this awesome product to the market! As it stands, it doesn't look like it'll be ready to launch until Q4 of this year. As the adage goes, good things come to those who wait!"



  
 At least the iCan PRO (It's two-two-two amps in one!), iPhono2, and iPurifier 2 (USB A and B versions) are seeing the light of day.


----------



## Whitigir

jerseyd said:


> iFi has just sent an update to us dealers, saying,
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Oh, the best of all is real balanced connection. I can't wait to see what IFI has to offer because I am addicted to IFI SE connection already


----------



## EVOLVIST

whitigir said:


> Oh, the best of all is real balanced connection. I can't wait to see what IFI has to offer because I am addicted to IFI SE connection already


 
  
 Yes, that's a fantastic draw about the product. I've been going from the iDSD micro via an RCA to XLR cable to my HP amp for two years now. I'm not used to running unbalanced.
  
 It's funny, though, that even if the iCAN Pro works for me, I'll still be running unbalanced until the iDSD Pro hits the market.
  
 As for waiting: I'll continue to wait. The iDSD Pro must be a very special product, indeed.


----------



## Esprit

jerseyd said:


> As the adage goes, good things come to those who wait!"


 
 ...and the price goes up...


----------



## Middy

For $2000 it's going to have to be an all in one schitt killer... I am suprised I missed this thread and it's news to me...A Rob Watts keeping the price low for the UK would be nice...

Price performance is how I see IFI..Some solid real world technology that works.. So I'd expect a value of $3000 verse market potential...

I thought MQA is processing power and a licensed algorithm? Correct me if I am wrong. But this gimmick does push the streaming phenomenon towards highend buy in...What I don't get is studios reprocessing thier master tapes and getting more money for the same thing..again correct me if...

I'd like to see Direct Internet to USB interface. Ethernet /WiFi to USB. 
That in a package is a game changer and not a flavour of DAC implementation. 

No rip off Britain...Coming from Southport that's especially ironic..

Cut out all the other add ons and Lord of the Rings combo so powerful a Scouse Midget has to melt it down in a glass works in St Helens..

Regional local joke....

Good luck regardless I hope it's the success everyone hopes it is..

Cheers

Dave Originally from Whiston...


----------



## bmoura

evolvist said:


> Yes, that's a fantastic draw about the product. I've been going from the iDSD micro via an RCA to XLR cable to my HP amp for two years now. I'm not used to running unbalanced.
> 
> It's funny, though, that even if the iCAN Pro works for me, I'll still be running unbalanced until the iDSD Pro hits the market.
> 
> As for waiting: I'll continue to wait. The iDSD Pro must be a very special product, indeed.


 

 Having heard the iCAN Pro prototype at one of the audio shows, I'm very interested in what the iFi team will bring to the table with the iDSD Pro.
 Best to take their time and get it right before release.


----------



## Middy

+1 everytime..8^)


----------



## Esprit

middy said:


> so I'd expect a value of $3000 verse market potential...


 
 Months ago they said 1500€, now I hope they not exceed 2000€.


----------



## Middy

With IFI I'd want to see nearly double the quality for half the price. 
€1500 cost = €3000 quality.

Not much to ask for.....8^D

Pre hype adds a lot of expectations...

I wish them luck with that... A certain crowd funder has ruined that and put a lot of weight on others shoulders to deliver..

I just want the British IFI guys and gals to have some success. And make everyones end game a real possibility..

My tuned OPPO HA1 will take some big persuasion to make me move on though..

Good luck as always. Just heard about this, for some this has been a long wait...And a long road map for IFI...
TWO HARD years...

Keep.smiling
Dave


----------



## bmoura

esprit said:


> Months ago they said 1500€, now I hope they not exceed 2000€.


 

 As the projected price goes up, so will the expectations.  While iFi is still among a small group of companies delivering features like Quad DSD 256 in their DACs, at the $2,000 and under price they would now have to compete with products like the E12 from exaSound, Moon 230HAD from Simaudio, M-DAC+ from Audiolab, NT-503 from TEAC and the Brooklyn DAC from Mytek.  All of these are also Stereo DACs with DSD 256 and a host of features. 
  
 Time will tell how they do...  
  
 http://nativedsd.com/database


----------



## Trogdor

EDIT: It's HERE!


----------



## EVOLVIST

trogdor said:


> So exciting! It's almost here!




Yeah, I've been checking iFi's site nearly everyday. I didn't yesterday. Music Direct still has it a few weeks out, though. I suspect that'll change soon.

I'm pretty excited, too!


----------



## BrainFood

trogdor said:


> So exciting! It's almost here!


 
 Nice to see that they included the 3D circuit for speakers, just like the i-tube.  Seem to remember reading (ages ago) that it would apply to headphones only.  Good stuff.
  
 nb referring to the ican pro..


----------



## Esprit

This is the headphone amp, if I remember correctly they wrote that they would not put the feature into the DAC (iDSD Pro, we are waiting for...)


----------



## ostewart

This looks awesome, and looks well worth the price.
  
 Waiting to hear it myself, I would have to recable some headphones for balanced usage.
  
 equivalent 100w @ 4ohms! be more than enough for all headphones out there, a little OTT for a headphone amp, but always good to have headroom.


----------



## EVOLVIST

There's not a lot of tech specs on the website. I thought there might be more. a frequency response of 0.5hz to 500khz (-3db) is very impressive.
  
 But I'm curious about what is the dynamic range, the crosstalk, and what is the weighted noise in -dBu? 
  
 I find it extremely exceptional that iFi is keeping everything in the analog domain for this unit. That s quite a bit of architecture. Amazing, really.
  
 Notice that the THD is exactly the same, when running balanced cans, for Solid-State, Tube, and Tube+. For single ended there is only nominal variance until one gets to Tube+.
  
 Perhaps iFi can elucidate.


----------



## h1f1add1cted

I'm more curious about the optional Stax energizer for the iCAN Pro, it's very silent about this really killer feature to me.


----------



## BrainFood

esprit said:


> This is the headphone amp, if I remember correctly they wrote that they would not put the feature into the DAC (iDSD Pro, we are waiting for...)


 
  Yep, maybe they said it about the iDSD pro, but it was quite a while ago either way...


----------



## iFi audio

*Pro series - iCAN* *Endgame, fully-balanced Class A Headphone Amplifier*
  

 Southport, UK – 7th May 2016
  
*Professional series flagship headphone amp/line stage*
 The Professional ‘Pro’ series is the all-new iFi audio flagship line. The first product is the Pro iCAN; a studio-grade headphone amplifier _and_ audiophile pre-amplifier. It is the world’s first 2-in-1 tube (valve)/Solid-State amplifier. Seamlessly enjoy either amplifiers at the flick of a switch. Revel in the best of all worlds – headphones/speakers, Tube/Solid-State. Just take your pick, four special characteristics in one very substantial aircraft-grade aluminium chassis.
  
*Features*

User-selectable amplification modes – liveliness of Solid-State or luxury of tubes*
Professional headphone amplifier and high-end pre-amplifier
Super-powerful 14,000mW headphone output power
_True Balanced_, fully-balanced, fully-discrete circuit topology
3D Holographic® dual-analogue matrices for headphones and speakers
XBass® analogue bass correction system corrects Headphone/Speaker Bass response
Reference class parts quality from Elna Silmics to Silver Mica capacitors
Expansion port for iFI Electrostatic Headphone (Stax etc.) Energizer module (4Q 2016)
 *(2xGE5670 tubes)
  
*Specifications*
 Gain (Bal in to Bal out):                                                                       0dB, 9dB and 18dB user-selectable
  
 Frequency Response:                                                                         0.5Hz to 500KHz(-3dB)
  
 Total Harmonic Distortion  (THD):                                                                 Balanced                Single-Ended
                                                                       Solid-State                        ≤0.0015%              ≤0.005%
                                                                       Tube                                 ≤0.002%                ≤0.005%
                                                                       Tube+                               ≤0.012%                ≤0.2%
  
 Signal to Noise Ratio               (SNR, Balanced/Single-Ended):          >147dB(A) / >137dB(A)
  
 Output Power                       (16Ω: Balanced/Single-Ended):         >14000mW / >4800mW
  
 Output Voltage                      (600Ω: Balanced/Single-Ended):      >23V/>11.5v
  
 Input Voltage                             (Pro iCAN):                                            DC 9v/6.7A – 18V/3.35A
                                                 (iPOWER PLUS)                                     AC 85V - 265V, 50-60Hz
  
 Power Consumption                                                                            <35VA Idle (Tube+)
  
 Dimensions:                                                                                          158(l) x 68(w) x 28(h) mm
  
  
 http://ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/pro-ican/
  
 The tech notes will follow over the coming weeks.
  
 We wanted to get the Pro iCAN out and then shed more light on the inner workings.


----------



## Whitigir

Holy moly the cookies !


----------



## gr8soundz

147dB SNR via balanced.......
  
 Is that a typo?


----------



## Topspin70

ifi audio said:


> *Pro series - iCAN**Endgame, fully-balanced Class A Headphone Amplifier*
> 
> 
> Southport, UK – 7th May 2016
> ...




It uses an iPower?


----------



## bmoura

And a new Quad DSD 256 music sampler from iFi and Native DSD Music to help celebrate the launch of the iFi Audio Pro line at High End Munich.
  


> "Native DSD Music and iFi Audio are proud to announce the release of the iFi Quad DSD Sampler Album. The Quad DSD Sampler is being launched this week at the High End Munich audio show to celebrate the launch of iFi Audio's new flagship Professional series. The first product in iFi's Pro Series, the Pro iCan, is a professional studio grade headphone amplifier and an audiophile line-stage. The iFi Quad DSD Sampler from Native DSD Music includes 4 cherry-picked DSD 256 songs for you to enjoy performed by The Smoke and Mirrors Ensemble from Yarlung Artists, Thomas and Eva from Just Listen, Joachim Eijlander from NAVIS Classics and pianist Josep Colom from Eudora Records.
> 
> *Why iFi and Native DSD?*
> It's because we both bring out the best in each other. iFi uses separate Burr-Brown chips chosen to keep DSD and PCM in their native state as the music travels through their DACs. Both iFi and NativeDSD care passionately about the ultimate in sound quality and when it comes to DSD recordings, we continue to push the boundaries - with 256fs DSD (Quad, 11.2 MHz) recorded music in particular. This is why together with iFi we selected these 4 beautiful tracks for you.
> ...


----------



## h1f1add1cted

topspin70 said:


> It uses an iPower?


 

 Yes a special iPower Plus made for the iCAN Pro.
  
 From the iCAN Pro user manual:
  
_Tip: Any 9v to 18v DC power source with a minimum 60VA rating can be used with the Pro iCAN (including vehicular, RV and boat based 12V DC power). The Pro iCAN uses double conversion power supplies that make it impervious to power supply noise and related problems. However, we strongly recommend the use of the included iPOWER Plus 15V. It oers the latest in power supply technologyand is better and cleaner than battery and aftermarket linear power supplies._


----------



## Topspin70

bmoura said:


> And a new Quad DSD 256 music sampler from iFi and Native DSD Music to help celebrate the launch of the iFi Audio Pro line at High End Munich.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Nice! This makes it even tougher for us to wait for the iDSD Pro.


----------



## Whitigir

topspin70 said:


> Nice! This makes it even tougher for us to wait for the iDSD Pro.




That is very true


----------



## bmoura

whitigir said:


> That is very true


 

 Or you could play it in DSD 256 on your iDSD Nano or iDSD Micro while waiting for the Pro.  Right?


----------



## Bren Arden

Hi iFi audio, how much gain is aplied to the single ended line stage outputs? I am using a passive preamplifier with my high gain Job 225 amp and stil have to keep it around 9 - 10 o'clock. I wouldnt like to have to keep it around 6:30 on an active linestage. Trying to figure out if it would work for my setup or not.


----------



## BrainFood

you can select 0dB gain, so it will be identical to your passive.
  
 http://ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/pro-ican/


----------



## tf1216

...and then use the remote to control the volume. : )


----------



## Bren Arden

Ok, thanks guys. Now to figure out to wait for IDSD pro or go with Schiit Gungnir Multibit + Pro ICAN. I dont do DSD so il proly opt for the latter.


----------



## EVOLVIST

bren arden said:


> Ok, thanks guys. Now to figure out to wait for IDSD pro or go with Schiit Gungnir Multibit + Pro ICAN. I dont do DSD so il proly opt for the latter.




The thing you'll be missing out on is a truly balanced signal chain, though, as well as the flexibility to go from additional solid state to tubes with iDSD Pro, which would equal two tubes per channel if you had both the iCAN and the iDSD. 

Plus, it's not just about the DSD as the name implies. The iDSD pro has two burr-brown chips per channel, and two bit perfect settings for PCM/wav. The hybrid design of using delta-sigma for some bits and multi-bit for others really cuts down distortion inherent in all DACs, including the Schitt.

Believe me, I've thought about buying the Schitt multiple times, but I just couldn't bring myself to it with the iDSD Pro on the horizon. And just think, iFi has had all of this time to think up ways to beat the schitt out of Schitt. It'll happen.


----------



## Bren Arden

To evolvist, thanks for the additional info friend. I wil likely have time to read up on reviews before i manage the cash for it. But i would only be able to go balanced for a headphone setup since my poweramp is single ended only. My desktop speaker is the main set i use to listen to most of the time. I am, and wil be following this closely. Thanks again


----------



## Whitigir

Can you imaginehow a setup of pro dsd and pro can cost ...mind blown


----------



## Esprit

evolvist said:


> Believe me, I've thought about buying the Schitt multiple times, but I just couldn't bring myself to it with the iDSD Pro on the horizon. And just think, iFi has had all of this time to think up ways to beat the schitt out of Schitt. It'll happen.


 
  
 Me too...


----------



## EVOLVIST

whitigir said:


> Can you imaginehow a setup of pro dsd and pro can cost ...mind blown




Around 4k?


----------



## JWahl

evolvist said:


> The thing you'll be missing out on is a truly balanced signal chain, though, as well as the flexibility to go from additional solid state to tubes with iDSD Pro, which would equal two tubes per channel if you had both the iCAN and the iDSD.
> 
> Plus, it's not just about the DSD as the name implies. The iDSD pro has two burr-brown chips per channel, and two bit perfect settings for PCM/wav. The hybrid design of using delta-sigma for some bits and multi-bit for others really cuts down distortion inherent in all DACs, including the Schitt.
> 
> Believe me, I've thought about buying the Schitt multiple times, but I just couldn't bring myself to it with the iDSD Pro on the horizon. And just think, iFi has had all of this time to think up ways to beat the schitt out of Schitt. It'll happen.




You may be confusing the Gungnir with the Bifrost. The Bifrost is single ended output only. The Gungnir MB has balanced output with 4 converter chips, one for each channel. I think the Gungnir MB with ICan pro could be a killer setup, and a combo I'll be keeping an eye out for impressions on. I have the Gungnir MB right now, but with a high end DIY (albeit single ended) amp. 

The ICan Pro is on my radar if it can come close to the sound quality of my current amp. I'm still hopeful. Waiting for some impressions to roll in.


----------



## Topspin70

jwahl said:


> evolvist said:
> 
> 
> > The thing you'll be missing out on is a truly balanced signal chain, though, as well as the flexibility to go from additional solid state to tubes with iDSD Pro, which would equal two tubes per channel if you had both the iCAN and the iDSD.
> ...




Sounds like you got pretty good amp. What might that be?


----------



## EVOLVIST

jwahl said:


> You may be confusing the Gungnir with the Bifrost. The Bifrost is single ended output only. The Gungnir MB has balanced output with 4 converter chips, one for each channel. I think the Gungnir MB with ICan pro could be a killer setup, and a combo I'll be keeping an eye out for impressions on. I have the Gungnir MB right now, but with a high end DIY (albeit single ended) amp.
> 
> The ICan Pro is on my radar if it can come close to the sound quality of my current amp. I'm still hopeful. Waiting for some impressions to roll in.




Is the Gungnir digitally balanced, though? I mean, I really don't know, so I'm asking. No digital balancing for the iFi Pro series.

Like you I'm very happy with my current amp in the SPL Auditor, so I wouldn't just throw money away for an iCAN Pro if it didn't beat out my Auditor. But what I'm seeing here is a fully analog balanced signal path in the iCAN Pro, plus switchable from Tube to SS, so man, what a great amp in theory.

I'm also very interested in the analog 3D circuitry. It could very well be a gimick that's not a gimick, if you know what I mean.

That said, I contacted Music Direct this morning, and they still don't know what's going on with this release.


----------



## JWahl

topspin70 said:


> Sounds like you got pretty good amp. What might that be?


 
  
 The one in my Sig: ECP/Beezar Torpedo III, with Cinemag output transformers, and Mundorf Evo Al-Oil caps.  Base kit is $550, but was $800 as optioned.  Killer value, but of course, it's DIY, and required some through hole soldering proficiency.
  
 The iCan Pro is appealing just because it presents a high level of flexibility, with a compact form factor.  But sound quality is unknown right now.
  


evolvist said:


> Is the Gungnir digitally balanced, though? I mean, I really don't know, so I'm asking. No digital balancing for the iFi Pro series.
> 
> Like you I'm very happy with my current amp in the SPL Auditor, so I wouldn't just throw money away for an iCAN Pro if it didn't beat out my Auditor. But what I'm seeing here is a fully analog balanced signal path in the iCAN Pro, plus switchable from Tube to SS, so man, what a great amp in theory.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Not sure what "digitally balanced" is?   I know it's balanced from the converter chips to the output.  The same as the iDSD Pro.  The iDSD Pro uses 4 TI/Burr Brown, partial multi bit/delta sigma (First 6 or 7 bits, I think) converter chips for hardware balanced output.   The Gungnir MB uses 4 non-audio full multibit chips, adapted for audio use using FPGA logic.  Different strokes for different folks.  I'm not knocking the iFi, though.  I like their products and have a few of them myself.  I'm admittedly a Schiit fanboy, but also an iFi fanboy.
  
 I can't speak of the 3D sound circuitry on this unit, but the original iCan Micro's version I found to be useful on some recordings, as well as the XBass feature.  And if you don't like them, you can always turn them off.  Good to have options. 
  
 On a design level, I'm already impressed with the iCan Pro, and the design engineering that goes into fitting so much into such a compact package.


----------



## Topspin70

Waiting for impressions to roll in is as tough as waiting for the launch.


----------



## Fink24

I was at the High End in Munich and was able to listen to the iCan Pro.
 Take this with a grain of salt, since the circumstances at an exhibition are not that great and I was only able to listen to it for a short amount of time, because most of the time speakers were playing in the listening room.
  
 I used my own HE-6 and listened to various amps at the event (Questyle CMA800r monoblocks, KR Audio VA350, Violectric HPA V281, Hifiman EF-1000)
 To me the iCan was better than the V281 and was only beaten by the EF-1000 (which will cost around 15.000$), the other two amps where about on par with the iCan.
 It also beats my Technics SU-V8x. (I have to wait and see how my Pioneer SA-9900 compares, once the refurbishment will be finished) 
  
 I preferred the Tube mode and the X-Bass on the first setting the most during my listening. This is also my favourite thing about the iCan, that you can just use the setting you like the most and are not forced to use one setting like most other headphone amps.
  
  
 Edit: One thing that I also want to mention is, that the X-Bass and 3D Knob get really hard to turn if you use the dual 3-Pin XLR Ports. Maybe some kind of knurling would help with that.


----------



## EVOLVIST

So, when's this shiznit gonna come out?


----------



## iFi audio

evolvist said:


> So, when's this shiznit gonna come out?


 
  
 Hi,
  
 Out in Europe! As the OP said, we've been exhibiting in Munich and England.
  
 In the USA, check with Music Direct and Adorama and B&H Photo (within the next week).
  
 Other smaller retailers may not carry it as they may not have the nevessary headphones/speaker systems to pair with the Pro iCAN.
  
 PM if you struggle and we'll put you in touch with our USA colleagues.


----------



## Jimi Zeen

What's the release date on the Ifi idsd Pro? What's the latest specs or info you can tell us? People have been waiting literally years for this DAC


----------



## Rob N

Ican Pro ordered


----------



## PUGSTUB

who's taking orders?


----------



## Esprit

jimi zeen said:


> What's the release date on the Ifi idsd Pro?


----------



## Rob N

I ordered from MCRU


----------



## Rob N

Arrived today


----------



## raybone0566

rob n said:


> Arrived today


Wow, that was bloody fast! Looking forward to your impressions


----------



## Rob N




----------



## EVOLVIST

Scheisse! Music Direct is telling me they're not getting some iCAN Pros until June?

June, when, I say.

They say, I dunno.


----------



## Rob N

Sounds good out of the box with a simple non balanced set up to start as a baseline (iUSB 3.0,iDSD,itube,iCan Pro to Grado PS-1) with gain set to 0,X-Bass set to 10hz and 3D off. It is very quiet,no noise at all with volume at max and no input.The external power supply is silent.The remote is cheap looking but functional, it only operates the volume, it only increases or decreases the volume slightly on each press so to make bigger changes you need to keep pressing and releasing the + or – ie there is no continuous increase or decrease of the volume if you keep your finger on the buttons


----------



## Dadracer

rob n said:


> Sounds good out of the box with a simple non balanced set up to start as a baseline (iUSB 3.0,iDSD,itube,iCan Pro to Grado PS-1) with gain set to 0,X-Bass set to 10hz and 3D off. It is very quiet,no noise at all with volume at max and no input.The external power supply is silent.The remote is cheap looking but functional, it only operates the volume, it only increases or decreases the volume slightly on each press so to make bigger changes you need to keep pressing and releasing the + or – ie there is no continuous increase or decrease of the volume if you keep your finger on the buttons




Well done sir and I have a feeling it will live up to your expectations. One wee question though is do you think you will need the iTube in the line now that you have the Pro?


----------



## Rob N

dadracer said:


> Well done sir and I have a feeling it will live up to your expectations. One wee question though is do you think you will need the iTube in the line now that you have the Pro?


 
 Probably not,I should add I'm using the Tube+ mode


----------



## Fink24

rob n said:


> Sounds good out of the box with a simple non balanced set up to start as a baseline (iUSB 3.0,iDSD,itube,iCan Pro to Grado PS-1) with gain set to 0,X-Bass set to 10hz and 3D off. It is very quiet,no noise at all with volume at max and no input.The external power supply is silent.The remote is cheap looking but functional, it only operates the volume, it only increases or decreases the volume slightly on each press so to make bigger changes you need to keep pressing and releasing the + or – ie there is no continuous increase or decrease of the volume if you keep your finger on the buttons


 
 How does the (micro i guess?) iDSD compare to the iDSD + iCan Pro?

  
 I have another question: Are the preamp outputs switched off, if a headphone is plugged in?


----------



## john57

rob n said:


> Sounds good out of the box with a simple non balanced set up to start as a baseline (iUSB 3.0,iDSD,itube,iCan Pro to Grado PS-1) with gain set to 0,X-Bass set to 10hz and 3D off. It is very quiet,no noise at all with volume at max and no input.The external power supply is silent.The remote is cheap looking but functional, it only operates the volume, it only increases or decreases the volume slightly on each press so to make bigger changes you need to keep pressing and releasing the + or – ie there is no continuous increase or decrease of the volume if you keep your finger on the buttons


 
 On my Retro 50 the same volume remote controls the motor for the volume pot so that it increases the volume as long I hold down the button. My Retro 50 serves my needs quite well.


----------



## EVOLVIST

I have an iCAN Pro on order with Music Direct. They said it should ship to me, in the USA, in about 2 weeks. They also said that they have several back orders for this, so it looks as this may be a popular item if you can live with the price point.


----------



## JootecFromMars

evolvist said:


> I have an iCAN Pro on order with Music Direct. They said it should ship to me, in the USA, in about 2 weeks. They also said that they have several back orders for this, so it looks as this may be a popular item if you can live with the price point.


 
 Congrats!! I've got a Phonitor Mini (and also the iDSD Micro), so would love to hear your comparison once you've had a good while listening to it.


----------



## EVOLVIST

jootecfrommars said:


> Congrats!! I've got a Phonitor Mini (and also the iDSD Micro), so would love to hear your comparison once you've had a good while listening to it.




Yeah, I'm in love with my Auditor, but by all accounts (at least preliminarily) the iCAN Pro looks close to the same on paper, yet unlike the Phonitor the iCAN boasts all analog speaker effects, and also not the digital balanced of the Phonitor/Auditor. Time will tell, though.I'm anxious for the comparison, as well. In addition I have some balanced dual XLR cables for my HD800s just sitting here with no amp to use them on. If it all goes well I'll consider the Sennheiser 4-pin balanced cable (maybe).

I wish iFi would post more specs on the iCAN Pro, though.


----------



## Esprit

rob n said:


>


 
 WOW! 15V 4A I'm asking if I can power a mac mini with this...


----------



## iFi audio

dadracer said:


> Well done sir and I have a feeling it will live up to your expectations. One wee question though is do you think you will need the iTube in the line now that you have the Pro?


 
  
 Hi,
  
 No need as there are 2 x GE5670s in the Pro iCAN.
  
 Cheers.


----------



## raybone0566

Mighty quiet round here


----------



## Topspin70

Not our usual ifi pricing for the pro. Will take a while for folks to decide order receive use and give impressions.


----------



## EVOLVIST

raybone0566 said:


> Mighty quiet round here




Yeah. I'm just waiting until the come off the boat in the USA. The British who have the product are playing mum.


----------



## EVOLVIST

topspin70 said:


> Not our usual ifi pricing for the pro. Will take a while for folks to decide order receive use and give impressions.




This is true. I plan on letting mine have a good burn in before I even listen. Although, I'm not quite sure if amps have the same burn in effect as DACs.


----------



## Bren Arden

Hmmm, i did not expect this, but  the pcb does actualy give me a golden rod,  ive not often seen such a packed pcb before. and listening to my micro Idac + micro Ican i am tempted.


----------



## iFi audio

evolvist said:


> The British who have the product are playing mum.


 
  
 Hi,
  
 We are preparing the tech notes.
  
 This time around, we prefer to have people to have it in their hands and then we can run through the features/tech specifications as there are a few things in there that are best explained when people actually have it in the hand and see/hear how it operates eg like the switching between the Solid-State and Tube sections.


----------



## EVOLVIST

ifi audio said:


> Hi,
> 
> We are preparing the tech notes.
> 
> This time around, we prefer to have people to have it in their hands and then we can run through the features/tech specifications as there are a few things in there that are best explained when people actually have it in the hand and see/hear how it operates eg like the switching between the Solid-State and Tube sections.




Respek!


----------



## grdlow

Thank you iFi Audio for the beautiful amp 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  

  
 This replaces my HDVA600. Still burning it in.


----------



## Topspin70

Beautiful. Drool worthy.


----------



## iFi audio

evolvist said:


> Respek!


 
  
 The 'True Balanced' topology seems the be the popular so we shall start with that tech paper soon.
  
 Thanks.


----------



## Middy

Which button is for expresso as it does everything else...8^)


----------



## EVOLVIST

grdlow said:


> Thank you iFi Audio for the beautiful amp
> 
> 
> 
> ...




What are you doing to burn the amp in, and for how long do you expect to burn it in?


----------



## motberg

Also would be interesting if any tube rolling options....
 (I am using 2x iFi NOS 6922 currently in my preamp, but I have tried some '75 Reflektors that may be preferable..)


----------



## grdlow

evolvist said:


> What are you doing to burn the amp in, and for how long do you expect to burn it in?




download audio tracks from http://ifi-audio.com/audio_blog/burn-in-like-a-pro/

then leave it playing through the system. i let it play continuously for at least 100hrs.


----------



## Suopermanni

Any plans to distribute/sell the Ifi Pro Can to Australia? I'd be interested in purchasing one...if I had the MONEY! Still, from sounds of it, it sounds end game!


----------



## iFi audio

suopermanni said:


> Any plans to distribute/sell the Ifi Pro Can to Australia? I'd be interested in purchasing one...if I had the MONEY! Still, from sounds of it, it sounds end game!


 
  
 Hi,
  
 Leave you to drop Max Media a line.
  
 http://ifi-audio.com/sales/#australia
  
 Cheers.


----------



## EVOLVIST

grdlow said:


> Thank you iFi Audio for the beautiful amp
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Any listening?


----------



## grdlow

evolvist said:


> Any listening?


Yes, impressions over at the iCan Pro thread

http://www.head-fi.org/t/795344/ifi-ican-pro-upcoming-dedicated-headphone-amp-release


----------



## Bren Arden

About the use as linestage and headphone amp same time, i cant figure out how i can chose between line out or headphone out. Is there a line out/headphone selector or mute function or will i have to remove the headphones connected to get it to output towards my poweramp. I plan to leave my poweramp powered 24/7 and prefere to leave my headphones connected 24/7 aswel.


----------



## toidcans

bren arden said:


> About the use as linestage and headphone amp same time, i cant figure out how i can chose between line out or headphone out. Is there a line out/headphone selector or mute function or will i have to remove the headphones connected to get it to output towards my poweramp. I plan to leave my poweramp powered 24/7 and prefere to leave my headphones connected 24/7 aswel.




Per the manual, both the pre amp portion and headphone outputs are on all the time. It recommends to only use one or the other, and not leaving items plugged in to both at the same time for normal use.


----------



## iFi audio

*iFi Quad DSD Sampler Album – Native DSD Music * 
  
We would like to thank our very kind friends at NativeDSDMusic.
  
To celebrate the launch of the Pro iCAN, they have offered this very special ‘sampler’ recorded in dsd256 (natively) for all our readers.
  
http://blog.nativedsd.com/nativedsd-presents-ifi-quad-dsd-sampler-album/
  
https://nativedsdpresents.nativedsd.com/albums/NDSD002-ifi-quad-dsd-sampler-album
  
 The coupon code *QuadDSD*
  
 The code is valid for three weeks only. The code gives a *100% discount. *
  
The music is as follows:
  
Track 1: Groovy and hypnotising percussion music..
Album & Artist:
• Yarlung Records: YAR 15195DSD – Smoke & Mirrors Percussion Ensemble
DSD Track:
• Vanish – track 1 - Udacrep Akubrad (Dorman) 8:41
  
Track 2: Jazz vocals and guitar, to dream away..
Album & Artist:
• Just Listen: JL002 – Thomas & Eva
DSD Track:
• 8 Ensembles in 1 Bit - track 5 - Early Autumn (Herman) 2:47
  
Track3 : Bach's famous Cello Suite, what a genius..
Album & Artist:
• Navis Classics: NC15003 - Joachim Eijlander
DSD Track:
• Bach: Cello Suites - track 1 - Prelude (Bach) 2:33
  
Track 4: 1,2,3 - 1,2,3 - Waltz with Chopin's wonderful piano music..
Album & Artist
• Eudora Records: EUDDR 1402 - Josep Colom
DSD Track:
• Dialogue: Mozart & Chopin – track 10 - Waltz in A Minor, Op. 34, No. 2
(Chopin) 5:58
  
  
Enjoy the tunes natively on your Stereo50, micro iDSD, micro iDAC2, nano iDSD!
  
Thank you very much NativeDSDMusic!
NativeDSD.com


----------



## Allanmarcus

What is ESL-Link?
  
 Also, can someone post a picture of the remote?
  
 Finally, is the manual on-line anywhere?
  
 I'm very intrigued by this amp.


----------



## jagu

Travelling to US in a couple of weeks and thinking of bying the ican while I am there. We have 230V in Sweden and I see from pictures that I only need to change the power cord to use it in Sweden, right? Can someone confirm?


----------



## technobear

allanmarcus said:


> What is ESL-Link?




This is the socket for the electrostatic headphone adaptor.




allanmarcus said:


> Also, can someone post a picture of the remote?









allanmarcus said:


> Finally, is the manual on-line anywhere?




https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_JxnM2KPwG4UFg0RXFraDlnM1k/view?pref=2&pli=1


----------



## technobear

jagu said:


> Travelling to US in a couple of weeks and thinking of bying the ican while I am there. We have 230V in Sweden and I see from pictures that I only need to change the power cord to use it in Sweden, right? Can someone confirm?




If you click on this picture to expand it, your question will be answered...


----------



## Allanmarcus

Wow, just read the manual. This amp has an incredible feature set. I'm so tempted, but I generally not an early adopter. I usually like to wait until there are more reviews and any bugs discovered in general use are ironed out. Also, I prefer for for the price to drop a bit, either with discounting or used 

Has anyone tried powering speakers from the TRS jack?

Also, any news or details on the ESL module?


----------



## Allanmarcus

The more I think about it, the more more dubious I get. According to the specs page:
  
 Signal-to-Noise Ratio (SNR, Balanced/Single-Ended):    >147dB(A) / > 137dB(A)
  
 That's pretty darned high. Also, what does the (A) mean? A-wt? At what wattage was this measurement taken? 
  
 Also $1700 is what a Ragnarok sells for and almost as much as a WA22. Sure, you get tube and SS, but as a friend pointed out, jack of all, master of none. Sounds like the Pro competes with the Mjolnir 2, which is $929 to get both tubes and SS LISST "tubes". Sure, there something to be said for the convenience of an all in one, but that's over $700 for that feature. XBass, 3D, and a volume remote ain't worth $700.
  
 Also, some more info on the ESL module (pricing, specs, anything, would be really useful.
  
 Anyone know if iFi Audio will be sending out sample units to the usual set of reviewers? Possible even a loaner tour to us common folk for testing and impressions?


----------



## Trogdor

allanmarcus said:


> The more I think about it, the more more dubious I get. According to the specs page:
> 
> Signal-to-Noise Ratio (SNR, Balanced/Single-Ended):    >147dB(A) / > 137dB(A)
> 
> That's pretty darned high. Also, what does the (A) mean? A-wt? At what wattage was this measurement taken?




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-weighting



> Also $1700 is what a Ragnarok sells for and almost as much as a WA22. Sure, you get tube and SS, but as a friend pointed out, jack of all, master of none.




Your friend of course heard the iCan PRO to make that assessment? Right?



> Sounds like the Pro competes with the Mjolnir 2, which is $929 to get both tubes and SS LISST "tubes". Sure, there something to be said for the convenience of an all in one, but that's over $700 for that feature. XBass, 3D, and a volume remote ain't worth $700.




I think you are trying to convince yourself of something.



> Also, some more info on the ESL module (pricing, specs, anything, would be really useful.
> 
> Anyone know if iFi Audio will be sending out sample units to the usual set of reviewers? Possible even a loaner tour to us common folk for testing and impressions?




Yes!


----------



## Allanmarcus

trogdor said:


> allanmarcus said:
> 
> 
> > The more I think about it, the more more dubious I get. According to the specs page:
> ...




Thanks for the Wikipedia link. I'll be reading that. 

As for the jack of all trades comment, that is just general wisdom, and a potential concern here. Only the general consensus of reviews will confirm or deny if this amp can buck that convention wisdom. I hope the amp lives up to its marketing; it has all the features I want (except VU meters 

I'm trying convince myself that this amp is worth $1700. I would sell my LC, crack, and oppo HA-1 to get the pro (at full retail). That's a big leap. For now, I'll just wait for reviews, a loaner (if I'm lucky), or check it out at RMAF. 

Thanks for the comments.


----------



## Trogdor

allanmarcus said:


> Thanks for the Wikipedia link. I'll be reading that.
> 
> As for the jake of all trades comment, that is just general wisdom, and a potential concern here. Only the general consensus of reviews will confirm or deny if this amp can buck that convention wisdom. I hope the amp lives up to its marketing; it has all the features I want (except VU meters
> 
> ...




What I'm trying to say to you (gently) is chill and wait for reviews. You are trying to convince yourself of various things without having all the facts. Listening to a friend's gross oversimplification of a design based on a few specs is kinda silly to me (even if he turns out to be right).

I've heard the iCAN PRO with the HE-1K and I can tell you it sounded stellar. I mean absolutely stellar (and note: I'm a HUGE Schiit fan as well so if you said to me you are saving up for a Raggy/Yggy combo instead you would get absolutely no back talk out of me!).

I also think (actually know) the iDSD PRO is also right around the corner. Good things are happening. Patience!


----------



## EVOLVIST

allanmarcus said:


> Thanks for the Wikipedia link. I'll be reading that.
> 
> As for the jake of all trades comment, that is just general wisdom, and a potential concern here. Only the general consensus of reviews will confirm or deny if this amp can buck that convention wisdom. I hope the amp lives up to its marketing; it has all the features I want (except VU meters
> 
> ...


 
  
 I wish I could give you more of a review, but I've only had my iCAN Pro since Friday, and it's been burning in every since (two more weeks to go). It has some stiff completion going up against my SPL Auditor.
  
 What I can tell you, though, and maybe this is a little bit of my own self discovery; in the past when I have heard my HD800s, plugged in balanced via two 3-pin XLRs, I had never heard a difference in soundstage with other amps. The Auditor is balanced via digital means (I don't know how) to give the aura of a truly balanced amp. Finally, however, once I plugged my dual 3-pin XLRs into the iCAN Pro I can certainly tell the difference between single-ended in the iCAN Pro vs. Balanced. In other words, the iCAN Pro has just a large of a soundstage as my SPL Auditor. This is a good thing!
  
 The only question I have from here, then, is if that's enough for me to keep the iCAN Pro. Now, I don't buy to return items. That's never been my method. But since I'm just burning in, I won't truly know until I've put enough hours in it. I can tell that just like any other piece of gear I've bought new, It still has that slight edge to music that always goes away with sufficient burn in. Let's see if that's the case here.
  
 All said, it's the iDSD Pro I'm looking forward to the most.
  
 Also, I'm curious as to why I would need the gain up 18db to really drive my HD800s without burying the volume far to the right.


----------



## grdlow

evolvist said:


> Also, I'm curious as to why I would need the gain up 18db to really drive my HD800s without burying the volume far to the right.


 
  
 I reckon it has to do with the output level of your source. Balanced outputs will sound louder than single ended outputs.


----------



## EVOLVIST

grdlow said:


> I reckon it has to do with the output level of your source. Balanced outputs will sound louder than single ended outputs.




Yeah, I'm sure, as I'm still going RCA to XLR out of my iDSD micro. It makes me sure wish the iDSD Pro would hurry up and get here.


----------



## Allanmarcus

evolvist said:


> grdlow said:
> 
> 
> > I reckon it has to do with the output level of your source. Balanced outputs will sound louder than single ended outputs.
> ...




I don't think a balanced output of a DAC will sound louder. The balanced output to headphones will have more power than to the SE output for headphones, but you will be hard pressed to hear any difference between balanced or RCA output of a DAC.


----------



## lukeap69

allanmarcus said:


> I don't think a balanced output of a DAC will sound louder. The balanced output to headphones will have more power than to the SE output for headphones, but you will be hard pressed to hear any difference between balanced or RCA output of a DAC.




The balanced output of my Audio-gd NFB-1DAC is 'louder' than its SE output. This is my experience both using Gustard H10 and Schiit Ragnarok.


----------



## EVOLVIST

lukeap69 said:


> The balanced output of my Audio-gd NFB-1DAC is 'louder' than its SE output. This is my experience both using Gustard H10 and Schiit Ragnarok.




That's my experience with all XLR outputs from DAC to Amp.


----------



## Allanmarcus

My apologies. I just looked at the specs on the audio-Gd, and the output is double on the XLR over the RCA. My experience is too limited, but I learned something today. Thanks.


----------



## EVOLVIST

allanmarcus said:


> My apologies. I just looked at the specs on the audio-Gd, and the output is double on the XLR over the RCA. My experience is too limited, but I learned something today. Thanks.


 
  
 Normally balanced circuits have two AC signals out of phase with a common earth. The signal is therefore double a single-ended circuit, thus 3dB louder.


----------



## EVOLVIST

allanmarcus said:


> My apologies. I just looked at the specs on the audio-Gd, and the output is double on the XLR over the RCA. My experience is too limited, but I learned something today. Thanks.


 
  
 Double post


----------



## Trogdor

evolvist said:


> Normally balanced circuits have two AC signals out of phase with a common earth. The signal is therefore double a single-ended circuit, thus 3dB louder.




That's why many people report balanced sounding better out the gate. See Fletcher-Munson.


----------



## Allanmarcus

trogdor said:


> evolvist said:
> 
> 
> > Normally balanced circuits have two AC signals out of phase with a common earth. The signal is therefore double a single-ended circuit, thus 3dB louder.
> ...


 

 So with an SPL leveled comparison, is there any advantage to a balanced connection between a DAC and an Amp, for a relative short run (<1m)?


----------



## iFi audio

*iFi Quad DSD Sampler Album – Native DSD Music* 
  
We would like to thank our very kind friends at NativeDSDMusic.
  
To celebrate the launch of the Pro iCAN, they have offered this very special ‘sampler’ recorded in dsd256 (natively) for all our readers.
  
http://blog.nativedsd.com/nativedsd-presents-ifi-quad-dsd-sampler-album/
  
https://nativedsdpresents.nativedsd.com/albums/NDSD002-ifi-quad-dsd-sampler-album
  
 The coupon code *QuadDSD*
  
 The code is valid for three weeks only. The code gives a *100% discount. *
  
The music is as follows:
  
Track 1: Groovy and hypnotising percussion music..
Album & Artist:
• Yarlung Records: YAR 15195DSD – Smoke & Mirrors Percussion Ensemble
DSD Track:
• Vanish – track 1 - Udacrep Akubrad (Dorman) 8:41
  
Track 2: Jazz vocals and guitar, to dream away..
Album & Artist:
• Just Listen: JL002 – Thomas & Eva
DSD Track:
• 8 Ensembles in 1 Bit - track 5 - Early Autumn (Herman) 2:47
  
Track3 : Bach's famous Cello Suite, what a genius..
Album & Artist:
• Navis Classics: NC15003 - Joachim Eijlander
DSD Track:
• Bach: Cello Suites - track 1 - Prelude (Bach) 2:33
  
Track 4: 1,2,3 - 1,2,3 - Waltz with Chopin's wonderful piano music..
Album & Artist
• Eudora Records: EUDDR 1402 - Josep Colom
DSD Track:
• Dialogue: Mozart & Chopin – track 10 - Waltz in A Minor, Op. 34, No. 2
(Chopin) 5:58
  
  
Enjoy the tunes natively on your Stereo50, micro iDSD, micro iDAC2, nano iDSD!
  
Thank you very much NativeDSDMusic!
NativeDSD.com


----------



## iFi audio

evolvist said:


> Yeah, I'm sure, as I'm still going RCA to XLR out of my iDSD micro. It makes me sure wish the iDSD Pro would hurry up and get here.


 
  
 Hi.
  
 This is not recommended. Do not connect a single ended output via an RCA -> XLR adapter to the XLR input on the iCAN Pro. 
  
 It is fully balanced and expects a true balanced input signal. For unbalanced signals please use the RCA Inputs.


----------



## EVOLVIST

ifi audio said:


> Hi.
> 
> This is not recommended. Do not connect a single ended output via an RCA -> XLR adapter to the XLR input on the iCAN Pro.
> 
> It is fully balanced and expects a true balanced input signal. For unbalanced signals please use the RCA Inputs.


 
  
 Well, It's a good thing I only did that for about 10 minutes then. I don't imagine 10 minutes or so would screw the machine up, would it?


----------



## bluesaint

Also IFI previously replied to a question I had on the SE RCA input where I asked if it includes a phase splitter, in which they said yes.  So essentially the SE signal gets converted to a balanced signal internally already.  On the LC threads, because LC also have phase splitter, folks tested both SE and BAL input and found it didn't sound different.  So it opens up your DAC options quite a bit.  
  
 Here's what IFI said explicitly:
  
  
  "It is included, in a special way so that instead of splitting phase, the positive signal always passes directly and only the (missing on RCA) negative signal phase is inverted, with a direct coupled single stage open loop circuit. 
  
 This means that if running single-ended in -> single-ended out no extra circuitry is added and for single-ended in -> balanced out the single ended signal is stepped up to balanced with least possible degradation.
  
 Of course, it also means that balanced in -> balanced out signals only pass a single stage of gain without any added electronics or stages."


----------



## cav1sa

I had some doubts about dropping so much cash, but considering how stellar my iDSD micro has been performing and how thoughtful IFI have always been with my support questions, including the most recent one, where they offered to repair my unit after warranty had expired, I just ordered my pro iCAN 
 The wait begins...


----------



## EVOLVIST

bluesaint said:


> Also IFI previously replied to a question I had on the SE RCA input where I asked if it includes a phase splitter, in which they said yes.  So essentially the SE signal gets converted to a balanced signal internally already.  On the LC threads, because LC also have phase splitter, folks tested both SE and BAL input and found it didn't sound different.  So it opens up your DAC options quite a bit.
> 
> Here's what IFI said explicitly:
> 
> ...


 
  
 This is very helpful, and I had no idea iCAN Pro did this. So, it balances the signal internally for those who have RCA outs from their DAC, with no noticeable sound difference.
  
 It begs to question, then, what benefit does going XLR from your DAC give if there isn't an SQ difference in iFi's "truly balanced" system?


----------



## Allanmarcus

evolvist said:


> bluesaint said:
> 
> 
> > Also IFI previously replied to a question I had on the SE RCA input where I asked if it includes a phase splitter, in which they said yes.  So essentially the SE signal gets converted to a balanced signal internally already.  On the LC threads, because LC also have phase splitter, folks tested both SE and BAL input and found it didn't sound different.  So it opens up your DAC options quite a bit.
> ...




LOL. same question I asked a few posts ago. I suppose if the voltage is higher with a balance input, the amp gain doesn't have to be as much, thus providing for a more efficient amp. Just a guess. 

From my understanding of balanced cable, it's use to reduce EMI for long cable runs. Sinc DACs and amps tend to be close, that is usually not an issue. 

My other guess is that tons has been written in this topic and we just need to google it


----------



## EVOLVIST

allanmarcus said:


> LOL. same question I asked a few posts ago. I suppose if the voltage is higher with a balance input, the amp gain doesn't have to be as much, thus providing for a more efficient amp. Just a guess.
> 
> From my understanding of balanced cable, it's use to reduce EMI for long cable runs. Sinc DACs and amps tend to be close, that is usually not an issue.
> 
> My other guess is that tons has been written in this topic and we just need to google it


 
  
 Haha! Very good points! I guess the key words in iFi's response to the person above is "least possible degradation," because we're still talking about an extra circuit that wouldn't be utilized if you were running XLRs?


----------



## iFi audio

evolvist said:


> Well, It's a good thing I only did that for about 10 minutes then. I don't imagine 10 minutes or so would screw the machine up, would it?


 
  
 Hi,
  
 There will be no damage to the iCAN Pro by feeding an unbalanced signal into the balanced input, however gain will be low and both objective and subjective performance will be impacted negatively.
  
 The SE Inputs are designed to be the equal of the fully balanced connection. Except for the additional phase inversion circuit (discrete, direct-coupled, J-Fet based, Zero Feedback) that creates the additional negative polarity signal that is missing from an unbalanced source the rest of the signal path matches the balanced one.
  
 Cheers.


----------



## iFi audio

evolvist said:


> It begs to question, then, what benefit does going XLR from your DAC give if there isn't an SQ difference in iFi's "truly balanced" system?


 
  
 Here you go:
  
 Most modern DACs have inherently balanced outputs.
  
 Keeping the signal fully differential (which few DACs with balanced output do but which is what the iDSD Pro does, oops will do) helps to lower noise, increases immunity to external fields, reduces sensitivity to power supply noise and to modulation of the power-supply created by the signal current changing.
  
 In numbers, a fully balanced (TrueBalanced) circuit has 3dB less self-noise and 6dB more signal level for an effective increase of dynamic range by 9dB, based on using precisely the same circuitry, power-supplies etc. Usually THD is also reduced by at least 20dB (ten times) or so. This is how you get numbers as impressive as those specified for the iCAN Pro!
  
 Only a few High End Audio manufacturers apply fully-balanced circuitry. In many cases 'balanced' inputs and outputs are using additional circuitry before/after the single-ended signal path. 
  
 In Pro-Audio (and Pro-Audio derived HiFi) this style of balanced circuitry, internally single ended with balanced circuitry bolted-on, is pretty much the industry standard.
  
 This more common style of balanced outputs where the actual signal processing is single-ended and the balanced output is created by inverting the single-ended signal before the output carries not only no advantage in noise and distortion over a single-ended circuit, it actually provides generally worse noise and distortion compared to a simple, pure single-ended circuit.
  
 Sonically, fully-balanced circuitry seems have more stability, solidity than equivalent SE circuitry. That said, the differences are NOT night and day.
  
 There will be more information coming in technical articles, soon...


----------



## EVOLVIST

ifi audio said:


> Hi,
> 
> There will be no damage to the iCAN Pro by feeding an unbalanced signal into the balanced input, however gain will be low and both objective and subjective performance will be impacted negatively.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Wow! No wonder the only time I did it connected with my XLRs it was hard as hell to drive my HD800s. I had the switch to 18db, and was thinking, "Wow, I'm not really driving these far." Now it all makes sense.


----------



## occamsrazor

ifi audio said:


> Here you go:
> 
> Most modern DACs have inherently balanced outputs.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Nice explanation, thanks. Can you also talk about the implications of using both RCA and XLR outputs simultaneously in fully-balanced circuitry and how that may or may not affect SQ? I use Balanced Out to balanced power amp monoblocks (Hypex Ncores), and Unbalanced Out to an active sub. While many DAC/Pres have both XLR and RCA outputs, manufacturers rarely mention whether they can be used simultaneously without degradation. I'm keen to know what that situation will be like with the upcoming IDSD Pro.


----------



## iFi audio

occamsrazor said:


> Nice explanation, thanks.
> 
> 
> I'm keen to know what that situation will be like with the upcoming IDSD Pro.


 
  
 Same as the Pro iCAN which is out now!
  
 More info soon.


----------



## iFi audio

Technical Notes series  

  
*Introduction*
 The “Pro series” is the flagship of the iFi range. It is an advanced, ‘one-of-a-kind’ design to perfectly suit both the professional audio and home audio sectors.
  
 With 14,000mW output power and a vast range of adjustments, the Pro iCAN is a state-of-the-art component that drives _ALL_ headphones, even electrostatic headphones like STAX (with the special external ESL module).
  
 Here is some insight into the technologies used in the Pro iCAN which is packed with trickle-down technology from AMR.
  
Contents:
*Tech Note 1: When Balanced is NOT Balanced*

Typical unbalanced ‘Balanced’ headphone amplifier
 
True ‘Balanced’ Pro iCAN
The ‘Balanced’ connection _[tech note on the balanced connectors]_
  
 and more...(we shall update as we go along).


----------



## iFi audio

*Tech Note 1: * *True Differential Balanced**®* At the upper end of the headphone amplifier market, despite the best protestations of  ‘balanced’ things are not always what they seem. This is a curious case of ‘*Is balance balanced*_?’_
  
 For headphones, it DOES make good design sense to implement a balanced topology (the possibility of higher power, increase dynamic range and lower noise etc.) It goes without saying that the balanced design should be balanced all the way through, ‘end-to-end.’
  
  

  
  
  
*1. The typical not-so ‘Balanced’ headphone amplifier *  
*Input/Output:           Balanced*
*Internal Circuitry:    Single-Ended*
  
 The majority of ‘balanced’ high-ended headphone amplifiers are actually _single-ended amplifiers with balanced inputs and outputs_. The balanced input will be converted into single-ended operation inside the amplifier, then converted back to balanced just before the output:
  
 The following block diagram depicts the balanced input through to the amplifier (orange) which afterwards, reverts to single-ended and runs through many single-ended stages before then going to the balanced outputs.
  

  
  
*In detail*: The balanced input signal will first be converted into single-ended operation by extra circuitry added to the single-ended signal path. The volume control and actual headphone amplifier are formed by a pure, single-ended circuit.
  
 To provide balanced drive to the headphone, the signal is inverted using more circuitry added to the single-ended audio path.
  
_A sure fire giveaway of such circuitry is the use of a 2-Deck volume control (c.f. 4-Deck for true balanced circuitry), as well as having more than four gain/current buffer blocks among two channels._
  
 At the input, the additional balanced to single-ended conversion circuit generates extra noise on top of the volume control pot.
  
 At the output, the inverter circuit used to create the balanced signal simply doubles the signal, noise and distortion of the amplifier, nothing is reduced or cancelled, only added. So one gets double the signal but also double the noise and distortion.
  
 Hence this is truly a case where MORE IS LESS. There is much more circuitry, but far lesser performance, both objectively and subjectively.
  
  *2. True Differential Balanced® - Pro iCAN *  
*Input/Output:           Balanced*
*Internal Circuitry:    Balanced*
  
 The Pro iCAN however, is true balanced end-to-end, from the input all the way through to the outputs. It operates with full-differential internal signaling, meaning the signal is always remains two separate signals of equal level but opposite polarity. This is what we call *True Differential Balanced®*.
  

  
  
 In detail: The Pro iCAN circuit is fully-balanced with completely equal circuit sections for Positive (Hot) and Negative (Cold) signal phase of each channel. The Volume control has 6-Decks, two decks each control the volume of one channel, and the other two decks are used for monitoring the volume control operation. This exceptional volume control potentiometer is custom made for iFi by ALPS Japan and has no parallel from other makers.
  
 But, as the two halves of the volume control and the two halves of the amplification operate differentially, they effectively become a single stage. So the circuitry is highly elaborate in actual implementation, yet it comes down to the simplest design possible for a headphone amplifier, that is a volume control, a gain stage and a current buffer*.
  
 Compared to a single-ended design with exactly the same circuit, True Differential Balanced® lowers noise by 3dB and also lowers THD dramatically over the. Additionally, it allows the signal level to be doubled, so True Differential Balanced® circuitry also produces 9dB (or 3 times) greater dynamic range.
  
_Note: _
_In professional audio, ‘Balanced Amplifier’ only means the Input/Output connections are balanced, the internal circuits are actually single-ended (if the internal circuit is also balanced, it will be called d__ifferential).  _
  
_But in the Hi Fi world, most people view a ‘Balanced Amplifier’ as balanced all the way, from end-to-end, and incorrectly assume even the internal circuits are balanced._


----------



## Esprit

After Brexit we will pay all iFi products 20% less...


----------



## Whitigir

Ahhh.....common....don't take us Hi-fi folks to be lacking behind in technology information. Anyways, it is good to see that you disclose this information on your design.


----------



## iFi audio

_*NativeDSD's 20% discount on the previous Quad DSD tracks - Album version!*

 The overwhelming wave of feedback about this first ever Quad DSD (256fs) Sampler Album included many compliments about the choice of tracks! The percussion ensemble on track 1, the voice/guitar jazz duo on track 2, the baroque solo cellist on track 3 and the classical pianist on track 4... Well, guess what? _

*Those 4 Quad DSD albums *on which those 4 tracks can be found are now available with a *20% discount!*

Once *any or all album(s) *are in your cart, apply the *coupon code: *4xQUAD


_** Valid through June 30th, on the Quad DSD (256fs) downloads ** __Any DSD 256fs purchase generates the free option to download the Double DSD (128fs) and DSD (64fs) versions as well!_


*1). Smoke & Mirrors - Vanish*

by: Yarlung Records (YAR15195)
https://yarlungrecords.nativedsd.com/albums/smoke-mirrors-vanish


  


*2). 8 Ensembles in 1 Bit*
by: Just Listen (JL002)
https://justlisten.nativedsd.com/albums/jl0028-ensembles-in-1-bit
  

  

*3). Bach Cello Suites (Vol. 1)*
by: Navis Classics (NC15003)
https://navisclassics.nativedsd.com/albums/NC15003-bach-cello-suites-vol-1


  

*4). Dialogue (Mozart & Chopin)*
by: Eudora Records (EUDDR1402)
https://eudora.nativedsd.com/albums/mozart-chopin-dialogue


----------



## SuperDuke

Really enjoying my ifi Pro.   the SS mode is really smooth and is not a compromise at all considering this is a "Jack of all trades".  Plenty of power to drive the HE-6 well w/ the 9db gain.  I've heard my HE6 driven "OK" from lesser powered amps.  That's not the case here.  The Pro has no problem controlling the HE6 and bringing  out the dynamics,  bass and stage.  My TH-X00 sound incredible as well.  I am just beginning to really notice the difference w/ the 3D engaged.  For me it is subtle like the crossfeed on the Phonitor.  The amp I want most to compare to is the Heron 5 just b/c for me it has an addictive "lots of Air" quality.   more to follow.


----------



## EVOLVIST

superduke said:


> Really enjoying my ifi Pro.   the SS mode is really smooth and is not a compromise at all considering this is a "Jack of all trades".  Plenty of power to drive the HE-6 well w/ the 9db gain.  I've heard my HE6 driven "OK" from lesser powered amps.  That's not the case here.  The Pro has no problem controlling the HE6 and bringing  out the dynamics,  bass and stage.  My TH-X00 sound incredible as well.  I am just beginning to really notice the difference w/ the 3D engaged.  For me it is subtle like the crossfeed on the Phonitor.  The amp I want most to compare to is the Heron 5 just b/c for me it has an addictive "lots of Air" quality.   more to follow.


 
  
 How many hours did you burn yours in?


----------



## SuperDuke

Let's see I've had it 2 weeks and it's been going about 14-16 hrs/d.  It's Tube+ mode I've had burning in.  not sure if the SS needs the same time?  Both modes sounds very good to me.


----------



## Allanmarcus

Does one need to play music to burn in an amp? Can you have an iPod playing, but no headphone connected to burn it in? 
  
 I understand why a tube needs to be burnt in, but I don't see what burning in the SS state can do. I supposed it's might like burning in a cable, which I feel useless.


----------



## EVOLVIST

allanmarcus said:


> Does one need to play music to burn in an amp? Can you have an iPod playing, but no headphone connected to burn it in?
> 
> I understand why a tube needs to be burnt in, but I don't see what burning in the SS state can do. I supposed it's might like burning in a cable, which I feel useless.


 
  
http://www.head-fi.org/t/346749/amplifier-burn-in
  
http://www.head-fi.org/t/114376/amplifier-burn-in-how-big-a-change-is-it


----------



## technobear

allanmarcus said:


> Does one need to play music to burn in an amp?




Yes.




allanmarcus said:


> Can you have an iPod playing, but no headphone connected to burn it in?




No.




allanmarcus said:


> I understand why a tube needs to be burnt in, but I don't see what burning in the SS state can do.




Clearly you are not a physicist or an engineer.

Solid state components are not as solid as they appear. Indeed nothing in this world is. 

There is a whole class of microphones made from capacitors.

Even wire burns in. 

(Hark! - is that the sound of a head exploding?  )


----------



## JerseyD

technobear said:


> Even wire burns in.
> 
> (Hark! - is that the sound of a head exploding?
> 
> ...


 
 Oh, here we go!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I'm with you, technobear. But I don't try too hard to convert the non-believers any more.


----------



## Allanmarcus

technobear said:


> allanmarcus said:
> 
> 
> > Does one need to play music to burn in an amp?
> ...


 

 Thanks for the advice. I appreciate it. 
  
 Nope, I'm not a physicist or an engineer, but I certainly work with a lot (I work at a National Lab, you can guess which one  I'll ask around for an explanation a simple IT manager (with a degree in Political Economics) like me can understand. I didn't believe in headphone or speaker burn in until I heard it for myself with the Ether C, but there are some physical aspects there. With a SS amp, I can see how caps, joints, and other electronics can change with time, or certainly after they warm up. I'll leave the cable burn in to the Sound Science forum.
  
 Again, thanks.


----------



## zeissiez

Any more impression of the Pro iCan?


----------



## Esprit

And now? Only 1K€ for the iFi iDSD Pro?


----------



## JootecFromMars

No. Its still 2K€ but £3K.


----------



## EVOLVIST

esprit said:


> And now? Only 1K€ for the iFi iDSD Pro?




Where are you seeing this?


----------



## Allanmarcus

evolvist said:


> esprit said:
> 
> 
> > And now? Only 1K€ for the iFi iDSD Pro?
> ...




They are making fun of brexit


----------



## Esprit

evolvist said:


> Where are you seeing this?


 
 EUR/GBP = 0,80


----------



## cav1sa

My iCAN PRO was unexpectedly delivered today, guys! What a pleasant surprise. This is going to be a good weekend.

_Front to back: Custom Art Harmony 8 Pro, LCD2, HD650, powered by iDSD + iCAN PRO, supported by Adam F7 nearfields._
  
 I try not to provide premature impressions on new audio equipment, but I'll say this iCAN PRO is going to make it harder for me to sell the Audezes. Good times ahead


----------



## Maelob

Man thats awesome, so jealous. Enjoy your system please let us know how it sounds.


----------



## Esprit

News?


----------



## Starcruncher

Hey there. I've given the thread a cursory search and browse and did not see what I was looking for.
  
 Has anyone had any experience connecting monitors/speakers to this amp? Passive or active? I would like an all-in-one solution that delivers both headphone and speaker amplification (of good quality, of course). This looks promising, but not many reviews yet.


----------



## technobear

starcruncher said:


> Hey there. I've given the thread a cursory search and browse and did not see what I was looking for.
> 
> Has anyone had any experience connecting monitors/speakers to this amp? Passive or active? I would like an all-in-one solution that delivers both headphone and speaker amplification (of good quality, of course). This looks promising, but not many reviews yet.




The iCAN PRO is a headphone amp and a preamp. It will not drive passive speakers. Active speakers are fine of course.

If you want an all-in-one solution for passive speakers, you could look at the iFi Audio Retro Stereo 50.


----------



## Allanmarcus

technobear said:


> starcruncher said:
> 
> 
> > Hey there. I've given the thread a cursory search and browse and did not see what I was looking for.
> ...




Or the Schiit rag. In fact, that will be the likely direct competitor to the pro iCan, and people will ask "why get the pro over the Rag?" That said, I've read some reviews that the rag is great with speakers, and some that say it isn't, especially with some speakers. The Pro may pair very well with the emotiva mini-x a-100 or its replacement the basx 100. 

I suppose the pro has the tube modes, which some will see as a gimmick, or in a best case "jack of all, master of none". 

In any event, if you haven't purchased speakers yet and are considering the pro, start looking into active speakers.


----------



## Starcruncher

allanmarcus said:


> Or the Schiit rag. In fact, that will be the likely direct competitor to the pro iCan, and people will ask "why get the pro over the Rag?" That said, I've read some reviews that the rag is great with speakers, and some that say it isn't, especially with some speakers. The Pro may pair very well with the emotiva mini-x a-100 or its replacement the basx 100.
> 
> I suppose the pro has the tube modes, which some will see as a gimmick, or in a best case "jack of all, master of none".
> 
> In any event, if you haven't purchased speakers yet and are considering the pro, start looking into active speakers.


 
  
 Thanks for that. I have not purchased anything yet. Just thinking for down the line. Need to make an intercontinental move first 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I like researching this stuff and have plenty of time. But as information piles up, so does some confusion. IMO, that's part of the fun!!


----------



## Xinlisupreme

Had Anyone listened HD-800 or HE-400s with iCAN pro?


----------



## krumley7882




----------



## EVOLVIST

allanmarcus said:


> I suppose the pro has the tube modes, which some will see as a gimmick, or in a best case "jack of all, master of none".




No, my friend, this is the real deal as far as tube sound. No gimmicks. What would make you think for $1695 all you'd get is a gimmick?

SS sounds just as fast and clear as so would expect, faithfully rendering the source. As soon as you flip the switch to tubes, you hear the clicking inside, and suddenly your ears are met with a well-rounded glow of lush sound. With the tubes they've chosen the sound harkens back to the golden age of tube radio, where the tube sheen meant something, instead of a lot of gear today where the sound is smothered in a compressed sound. Then one more flick of the switch and you've reached a sound that is wholly modern. Pow! You've arrived at Tube+, which gives the same speed and clarity of solid state, yet with that same tube feel that you had before. 

I'm not sure what applications the iCAN Pro actually has for the professional studio, but for a personal headphone amp it should be a dream come true for many.


----------



## Allanmarcus

evolvist said:


> allanmarcus said:
> 
> 
> > I suppose the pro has the tube modes, which some will see as a gimmick, or in a best case "jack of all, master of none".
> ...


 

 You've described what _some_ might consider a gimmick perfectly. "It's a tube amp and a solid state amp all in one!" So the question people will ask is how good of a Tube amp is it? How good of a SS amp is it? I can get a Mjolnir 2 for $1000 and have tubes or SS (albeit not at the flip of a switch). Heck, I can get a Lyr and an iCan SE for way less than $1000, let alone $1700. 
  
 I was just pointing out that for the same money as a pro iCan, one can get a Ragnarok. The Rag has speaker terminals, 5 inputs, two outputs, balanced and SE headphone output, and a fantastic reputation. It's also gigantic. There are many other SS or Tube amps for the pro to compete with. 
  
 A "gimmick" is a device used to attract business. The ability to flick a switch and switch between SS, Tube, or Tube+ mode is the pro's gimmick; it's the thing that differentiates it from the pack of other amps. The term "jack of all, master of none" has also been used _by people that have never heard the pro_, so it has a bit of a preconception to overcome. Getting it in the hands of the existing well respected reviewers will go a long way to get the word out. If I were iFi, I would have already sent one to stereophile, innerfidelity, and others.


----------



## tesox

... btw, I spent the last 4 days with reading literally every single word I could find about the ifi ican pro
and no one used the term "jack of all, master of none" exept you.
Whats the point of speculating about what somone might say/think about this amp?
That's also a way to provoke an opinion about something. 
There are always alternatives for everything, but like evolvist said, it's a dream come true for many what this amp offers (me too).
Gimmick, btw, is no serious characterization of two available amps.
If ifi had build two amps (SS / tube) in a separate case, no one would come to the idea to call one of them a "gimmick". 
I own an auralic taurus mk ii and it looks so fantastic high end and expensive and you can switch from single ended to balanced and innerfidelity says it's spectacular, wow !!! <--- that's a gimmick b/c it's not really balanced and thats not the only fault of this high praised master of SS.
What I like about the ifi ican pro and ifi products in general is that there no "bling bling" or mystification about their products but no-nonsense art of engineering with total transparency to the customer.


----------



## grdlow

allanmarcus said:


> You've described what _some_ might consider a gimmick perfectly. "It's a tube amp and a solid state amp all in one!" So the question people will ask is how good of a Tube amp is it? How good of a SS amp is it? I can get a Mjolnir 2 for $1000 and have types or SS (albeit not at the flip of a switch). Heck, I can get a Lyr and an iCan SE for way less than $1000, let alone $1700.
> 
> I was just pointing out that for the same money as a pro iCan, one can get a Ragnarok. The Rag has speaker terminals, 5 inputs, two outputs, balanced and SE headphone output, and a fantastic reputation. It's also gigantic. There are many other SS or Tube amps for the pro to compete with.
> 
> A "gimmick" is a device used to attract business. The ability to flick a switch and switch between SS, Tube, or Tube+ mode is the pro's gimmick; it's the thing that differentiates it from the pack of other amps. The term 'jack of all, master of none" has also been used by people that have never heard the pro, so it has a bit of a preconception to overcome. Getting it int he hands of the existing well respected reviewers will go a long way to get the word out. If I were iFi, I would have already sent one to stereophile, innerfidelity, and others.


 
 I believe for many that have bought the iCan Pro, myself included, we just enjoy the heck out of it so much that we no longer bother about comparisons with other amps.


----------



## Allanmarcus

No need to be defensive. I completely understand that you love the amp. I really like my nano. I'm just eagerly awaiting reviews from the larger audience. on the pro.

@tesox, you obviously haven't read it all. There is a short discussion of this amp on another headphone site. Sorry, I'm not allowed to post a link or name the site. Like me, no one there has heard it, but the concerns I brought up here were made there by others. 

I'm not saying it's not a good, or even great amp. I'm saying that it risks being thought of in the ways I mention earlier until the broad consensus is that it's not. To get that broad consensus, the established and respected reviewers probably need to weigh in. That will happen with time, but could happen faster if iFi sent review units out. Who knows, maybe they already have.


----------



## rickyleelee

tesox said:


> ... btw, I spent the last 4 days with reading literally every single word I could find about the ifi ican pro
> and no one used the term "jack of all, master of none" exept you.
> Whats the point of speculating about what somone might say/think about this amp?
> That's also a way to provoke an opinion about something.
> ...


 
  
Well explained. the amr background is something wifi don't explain well to customers but these other brands that advertise on head fi don't have that kind of super high end dna while poeple go ga ga ga crazy. just let them do it to their content. I prefer to buy mini me BMW than expensive Citroen.


----------



## rickyleelee

grdlow said:


> I believe for many that have bought the iCan Pro, myself included, we just enjoy the heck out of it so much that we no longer bother about comparisons with other amps.


 
  
I'm trying to get the Pro iCan on loan as my wife may leave me if I buy more audio toys but my friends asked me to do a demo. fwiw, I auditioned some of these 'big name amps' and while I am not one to publicly bash them, some of these names you guys talk about I have auditioned and they are not worth the money as their sound quality just isn't that good. They just don't have the same sound. I am saving to get another pair of closed headphones and I plan to have the Pro iCan to help me make my decision.


----------



## thatonenoob

Just got it for a loan period and I do look forward to giving it a go.  Most definitely an interesting concept.


----------



## Wildcatsare1

allanmarcus said:


> You've described what _some_ might consider a gimmick perfectly. "It's a tube amp and a solid state amp all in one!" So the question people will ask is how good of a Tube amp is it? How good of a SS amp is it? I can get a Mjolnir 2 for $1000 and have tubes or SS (albeit not at the flip of a switch). Heck, I can get a Lyr and an iCan SE for way less than $1000, let alone $1700.
> 
> I was just pointing out that for the same money as a pro iCan, one can get a Ragnarok. The Rag has speaker terminals, 5 inputs, two outputs, balanced and SE headphone output, and a fantastic reputation. It's also gigantic. There are many other SS or Tube amps for the pro to compete with.
> 
> A "gimmick" is a device used to attract business. The ability to flick a switch and switch between SS, Tube, or Tube+ mode is the pro's gimmick; it's the thing that differentiates it from the pack of other amps. The term "jack of all, master of none" has also been used _by people that have never heard the pro_, so it has a bit of a preconception to overcome. Getting it in the hands of the existing well respected reviewers will go a long way to get the word out. If I were iFi, I would have already sent one to stereophile, innerfidelity, and others.




Don't want to leak to much prior to the review being posted, but a brief response to your post (oh and you missed The Headphone List).

Had the Lyr 2 for years, not in the same league as the Pro iCan, soundstage, imaging, tone are all much better (Lyr tubes were Voskhod 1974 & Bugle Boys). I've had it for about a week, so early impressions with HD-800 Anax Mod/Draug 2, LCD-3f (2016 Vintage), Dharma, Alclair Studio4 and RSM CIEMs, all with excellant results. My current amps are the MX2, Taurus Mk.2, Heron 5 and LC.


----------



## thatonenoob

The amp can theoretically drive two single ended headphones through the 2 x 6.3. Would it perhaps be asking too much to have a volume control for each output. Just thinking aloud.


----------



## Wildcatsare1

wildcatsare1 said:


> Don't want to leak to much prior to the review being posted, but a brief response to your post (oh and you missed The Headphone List).
> 
> Had the Lyr 2 for years, not in the same league as the Pro iCan, soundstage, imaging, tone are all much better (Lyr tubes were Voskhod 1974 & Bugle Boys). I've had it for about a week, so early impressions with HD-800 Anax Mod/Draug 2, LCD-3f (2016 Vintage), Dharma, Alclair Studio4 and RSM CIEMs, all with excellant results. My current amps are the MX2, Taurus Mk.2, Heron 5 and LC.




Whoops, I plead typing on my iPhone and large thumbs, MZ2, the MicroZOTL2 (also being reviewed), both are quite innovative products that sound wonderful!


----------



## tesox

My ican pro arrived today ... finally.
  
 Some impressions:


----------



## EVOLVIST

The iCAN Pro has the 2nd largest soundstage I've heard from any amps through my HD800s (running balanced, of course). The soundstage is huge and natural. In SS and Tube+ the clarity, speed and detail are all there. Each instrument sits in it's own space - right in the pocket (depending on the mix, obviously).

This is the way an amp should sound. No gimmicks! Just the straight dope!


----------



## Allanmarcus

evolvist said:


> The iCAN Pro has the 2nd largest soundstage I've heard from any amps through my HD800s (running balanced, of course). The soundstage is huge and natural. In SS and Tube+ the clarity, speed and detail are all there. Each instrument sits in it's own space - right in the pocket (depending on the mix, obviously).
> 
> This is the way an amp should sound. No gimmicks! Just the straight dope!




What's the best you've heard, and have you heard the McIntosh MHA100?


----------



## EVOLVIST

allanmarcus said:


> What's the best you've heard, and have you heard the McIntosh MHA100?




The best SS amp I've ever heard is the SPL Auditor/Phonitor. Probably the best tube amp I've heard (price wise) is the Eddie Current Balancing Act. The best bang-for-your-buck tube amp? This little bity Aune T1 amp/DAC. It's magical.

No, I have not heard the McIntosh.

My caveat is always that I'm not really a tube guy, especially with headphones, as you tend to hear more flubbiness in most tube amps.

Luckily the iCAN Pro sounds as clear in tubes as one could want (coming from a SS guy). Any more tube sound would have killed it for me. I just want a slight warmth when I turn on tubes, not an overbearing aura that most produce.

In this way the iCAN Pro is close to perfection. On the solid state side it gives everything I've heard a run for its money. I've hears much more expensive SS amps that either sounded too thin, edgy, closed and/or simply not matching its price point.

I just can't imagine the serious audiophile balking after hearing the iCAN Pro. With this one, though, because it's so pure, you've got to have a DAC you're happy with to pair it with.


----------



## Allanmarcus

Ok, that sounds really cool! Thanks. One more question. Have you compared it to the Cavalli liquid carbon! From your description, it sounds like you might like Cavalli house sound.


----------



## tesox

... for those who are interested.
 ifi included an adaptor if you like to use your own high quality power cable to feed the iPower Plus power supply:
 I installed it today. Do you think this is a bit over the top ???


----------



## Allanmarcus

I though iFi address the power supply in post #499
  
 Basically, the power supply that comes with the pro is as good as iFi can make it,and the fully balanced topology of the pro "reduces sensitivity to power supply noise and to modulation of the power-supply created by the signal current changing" post #1259


----------



## Wildcatsare1

allanmarcus said:


> Ok, that sounds really cool! Thanks. One more question. Have you compared it to the Cavalli liquid carbon! From your description, it sounds like you might like Cavalli house sound.




Alan, comparing the LC to the Pro iCan, the iCan has a bigger, larger, better defined soundstage, better imaging, much blacker background, tonally they are equals, just one with the slightly more opaque Cavalli house sound.


----------



## Trogdor

allanmarcus said:


> I though iFi address the power supply in post #499
> 
> Basically, the power supply that comes with the pro is as good as iFi can make it,and the fully balanced topology of the pro "reduces sensitivity to power supply noise and to modulation of the power-supply created by the signal current changing" post #1259




He's joking. Obviously, the power supply that comes with the iCan PRO is more than enough.


----------



## Xinlisupreme

Anyone compared iFI pro iCAN to Trafomatic Head 2?:rolleyes:


----------



## tesox

@ Trogdor
  
 Thank you, you've got it right ! The Pangea cable I use weights nearly as much as the Pro iCan itself


----------



## grdlow

tesox said:


> ... for those who are interested.
> ifi included an adaptor if you like to use your own high quality power cable to feed the iPower Plus power supply:
> I installed it today. Do you think this is a bit over the top ???


 
  
 Wow. I didn't get any adaptor in the retail box. Will iFi make it available to the early adopters?


----------



## Allanmarcus

grdlow said:


> tesox said:
> 
> 
> > ... for those who are interested.
> ...


 

 It's supposed to come with a power adapter. You should contact your retailer.
  
 From the manual, page 11:
  
 "...we strongly recommend the use of the included iPOWER Plus 15V."


----------



## iFi audio

grdlow said:


> Wow. I didn't get any adaptor in the retail box. Will iFi make it available to the early adopters?


 
  
 Hi,
  
 If for any reason an accessory is missing, open a support ticket here and the tech people will look after you:
  
 Please open a support ticket at: 

 http://support.ifi-audio.com/kb/index.php
  
 Absolutely no issue!


----------



## grdlow

ifi audio said:


> Hi,
> 
> If for any reason an accessory is missing, open a support ticket here and the tech people will look after you:
> 
> ...


 
 The thing is I'm not sure if the C14-C7 adaptor is supposed to be included. I saw an unboxing video of the iCan Pro at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQf_f2inMYk, and there doesn't seem to be any adaptor in the box either.


----------



## iFi audio

grdlow said:


> The thing is I'm not sure if the C14-C7 adaptor is supposed to be included. I saw an unboxing video of the iCan Pro at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQf_f2inMYk, and there doesn't seem to be any adaptor in the box either.



 


Hi,

That unboxing is the pre-production sample. It was the show demo for distributors and has intergalactic mileage.

It was not the actual production version!

Cheers.


----------



## grizzlybeast

http://www.head-fi.org/t/795344/ifi-ican-pro-impressions-discussion-thread


----------



## grizzlybeast

xinlisupreme said:


> Anyone compared iFI pro iCAN to Trafomatic Head 2?


 
 Maybe one day I will be able to. I havent heard the pro yet. Not many people have the TH2. I have a feeling the Pro is going to sound and be a lot more versatile. It may even have a wider soundstage who knows. The TH2 is pretty much all tube and transistor class A. A whole different design and can be picky with certain headphones. E.g. it doesn't play as well with the Omni or T50 mods as it does with the HEK. It does Awesome with the HD800S and gives some heft and overall physicality to the light sounding Senn. It would be tough for a design like this to have the same effect. It will excel in different areas. 
  
 I hope @Wildcatsare1 reveals comparisons in his review vs other amps.


----------



## Xinlisupreme

grizzlybeast said:


> Maybe one day I will be able to. I havent heard the pro yet. Not many people have the TH2. I have a feeling the Pro is going to sound and be a lot more versatile. It may even have a wider soundstage who knows. The TH2 is pretty much all tube and transistor class A. A whole different design and can be picky with certain headphones. E.g. it doesn't play as well with the Omni or T50 mods as it does with the HEK. It does Awesome with the HD800S and gives some heft and overall physicality to the light sounding Senn. It would be tough for a design like this to have the same effect. It will excel in different areas.
> 
> I hope @Wildcatsare1 reveals comparisons in his review vs other amps.



 


Thank you very much @grizzlybeast we'll wait @@Wildcatsare1 iFI feedback/test


----------



## thatonenoob

Going to be rerunning the RMAA with input from the iFi team! 
  
 EDIT: Think I'll need to fix the scale on this. It's 1:00 AM, errors were made.


----------



## rickyleelee

thatonenoob said:


> Going to be rerunning the RMAA with input from the iFi team!
> 
> EDIT: Think I'll need to fix the scale on this. It's 1:00 AM, errors were made.




talking to there seller here in hk, seems the amr team got their s**t together, not much escapes them


----------



## thatonenoob

rickyleelee said:


> talking to there seller here in hk, seems the amr team got their s**t together, not much escapes them


 
 That's one way to put it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.


----------



## kj510

ifi audio said:


> grdlow said:
> 
> 
> > The thing is I'm not sure if the C14-C7 adaptor is supposed to be included. I saw an unboxing video of the iCan Pro at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQf_f2inMYk, and there doesn't seem to be any adaptor in the box either.
> ...


 
  
 I created a ticket for missing C14-C7 adaptor and iFi tech support replied it is not included in Japan version since the adaptor is not certified to use in Japan. So, it is not included in all the packages depending on the country you purchase it.
  
 So, iFi's previous reply in this thread is wrong as C14-C7 adaptor is not included in all production distribution. Just note for missing buyers.


----------



## Franatic

Any word on the idsd pro??? It seems to get further away, not closer.


----------



## Esprit




----------



## EVOLVIST

franatic said:


> Any word on the idsd pro??? It seems to get further away, not closer.


 
  
 Man, brother, even I'm running out of patience and doing some serious research on what else is out there. Next weekend I'm driving up to San Antonio to demo the Chord Electronics DAVE. I mean, I have to hear it, and if I can't do without it?...well...
  
 That said, I've heard no word to the contrary that the iDSD Pro won't drop in Q4. Even Music Direct seems to think that it will. If not by the end of the year then all bets are off.
  
 There's also the matter of what sort of "new technology" iFi is putting into the iDSD Pro. If it's only MQA (which, at one time they said was not what it's cracked up to be) then I'm going to be disappointed, because they would have already been beaten to the punch. If it's some kind of super gate array algorithm (because, after all, they employ that in their AMR line), then I will be more pleased .
  
 Then again, you can't please everybody, so...


----------



## smial1966

Just a heads up, my new and unused (box still sealed) iFi Pro iCAN is for sale in the classifieds for £995 shipped.
  
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/815361/ifi-pro-ican-new-box-still-sealed
  
 Cheers,
 Andy.


----------



## sdolezalek

Given the support that iFi is already giving to DSD512 upsampling in the iMicro, I would expect that the iPro will be more along the lines of what T+A have released in their DAC8 DSD.  It supposedly sounds exceptionally good across a range of source material when that is upsampled to DSD512.  That requires HQPlayer (or similar) and a fair amount of computing horsepower, but seems quite worthwhile.  I could see the iPro as being very close in sound but come in at half the $4k price of the T&A.
  
 THAT, would be worth waiting for; but also a high sonic target.


----------



## EVOLVIST

I like T&A, but I have nothing more to offer this thread at the moment.


----------



## Esprit

sdolezalek said:


> Given the support that iFi is already giving to DSD512 upsampling in the iMicro, I would expect that the iPro will be more along the lines of what T+A have released in their DAC8 DSD.  It supposedly sounds exceptionally good across a range of source material when that is upsampled to DSD512.


 
 With MacOS the T+A is limited to DSD128...


----------



## EVOLVIST

@ifi, what is the dynamic range for the iDSD Pro?

C'mon, you can tell us at least THAT!


----------



## Esprit

1/26/14 THREAD STARTER
 Only three years... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


I have gained weight


----------



## iFi audio

evolvist said:


> @ifi, what is the dynamic range for the iDSD Pro?
> 
> 
> 
> C'mon, you can tell us at least THAT!



 



Hi,

We can because we are running a few alpha Pro iDSDs.

> 120dB for solid state and > 116dB for tube on 2V output.

Normally anything past around 110dB is beyond good, as implies no audible noise in an absolutely quiet room (a very quiet library may be at around 25dB background noise level) with 110dB Peaks, which is already well beyond most HiFi systems' SPL capability. 

An extra 6-10dB (or more) are nice to have but extremely large dynamic range numbers are not a meaningful design goal in the context of music recording/playback. Certainly not round here.

Critical is that the iDSD Pro only has a passive LC filter and the single stage discrete differential amplifier after the DAC, no Op-Amp's. This circuit drives either Headphone out or Line out.

No daisy chaining an I/U Converter Op-Amp, a balanced to unbalanced converter and filter Op-Amp and a Line or headphone driver Op-Amp (and then adding on a balanced driver stage).

The fundamental discrete circuit design parallels the iCAN Pro, but with some small adjustments. Just a simple, single stage of discrete circuitry with the option to select the input device as J-Fet or Tube between DAC and output jacks.

With the Pro iDSD, the signal path doesn't get more 'direct' than this. So it is a little special.



We do appreciate everyone's patience - the flagship line of the Stax module and the Pro iDSD are pretty much going to be at RMAF.

The booth is booked and we'll see you there.


----------



## Esprit

Can we buy the iDSD Pro this year?


----------



## Franatic

"the flagship line of the Stax module and the Pro iDSD are pretty much going to be at RMAF."
  
 That will buy another 2 & 1/2 months..............we've been down this "road" a few times already...........pretty much.


----------



## iFi audio

esprit said:


> Can we buy the iDSD Pro this year?


 
  
 We do expect this to be the case - as the alpha Pro iDSDs are up and running and making the rounds.


----------



## Esprit

I hope we'll have an "early adopter pack"


----------



## iFi audio

esprit said:


> I hope we'll have an "early adopter pack"


 
  
 Hi
  
 We do not see why not!
  
 As other headphone manufacturers like working with us, we shall try our utmost.
  
 Cheers.


----------



## grdlow

Looking forward to the day when the electrostatic module is out. Can't wait to try a Stax L700 with the iCan Pro.


----------



## tranfa

Is the iDSD Pro going to need drivers for Windows?


----------



## technobear

tranfa said:


> Is the iDSD Pro going to need drivers for Windows?




Yes of course it will. We are not expecting Microsoft to bring Windows Audio into the 21st Century any time soon.


----------



## iFi audio

technobear said:


> Yes of course it will. We are not expecting Microsoft to bring Windows Audio into the 21st Century any time soon.



 


Correct.

USB Audio Class 1.0 and USB Audio Class 2.0.


----------



## MaceHane2

I've been looking at the Pro iCan for a while now as I slowly save up enough to get an amp to live with for a long time, but I am uneasy about its tendency to slide around on a desktop.
 I'm wondering if iFi might make changes to the unit to ameliorate this? I work at a very large desk and I specifically want to use my HD800s with its balanced cable, which is long and quite heavy. Sat here with the cable draped off the side of the desk worries me if it's going to be attached to a small unit that moves.
 I wouldn't know for certain as things stand now, but possibly buying one to find out would be a concern unless I managed to find a place that would permit a refund if it was a problem. 
 It has been mentioned a few times in my reading about the Pro, so I wonder, do any of you think iFi might move to address it somehow?


----------



## tf1216

macehane2 said:


> I've been looking at the Pro iCan for a while now as I slowly save up enough to get an amp to live with for a long time, but I am uneasy about its tendency to slide around on a desktop.
> I'm wondering if iFi might make changes to the unit to ameliorate this? I work at a very large desk and I specifically want to use my HD800s with its balanced cable, which is long and quite heavy. Sat here with the cable draped off the side of the desk worries me if it's going to be attached to a small unit that moves.
> I wouldn't know for certain as things stand now, but possibly buying one to find out would be a concern unless I managed to find a place that would permit a refund if it was a problem.
> It has been mentioned a few times in my reading about the Pro, so I wonder, do any of you think iFi might move to address it somehow?


 
  
 Velcro and problem solved


----------



## technobear

macehane2 said:


> I've been looking at the Pro iCan for a while now as I slowly save up enough to get an amp to live with for a long time, but I am uneasy about its tendency to slide around on a desktop.
> I'm wondering if iFi might make changes to the unit to ameliorate this?




Seriously?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/4-x-SORBOTHANE-30mm-ANTI-VIBRATION-HEMISPHERES-FEET-Turntables-Speakers-etc-/301093900918?hash=item461a985276:g:QWYAAOxycD9TWUJj

Problem solved.


----------



## MaceHane2

Is it really that simple? Have you tried it with the amp?
 Strange how the three reviewers that I've read saw this as sufficient a concern that they all mentioned it as a viable 'issue' to be considered.
 Also that this was obviously already recognised by iFi themselves as a problem because the amp itself comes with its own substantial-by-far version of what you've both posted, being its own anti-skid complete rubber base to the unit, and yet still moves around? How many amps have as their base a complete rubber bottom? And yet it still moves around freely when the heavy sennheiser balanced cable is moved.
 So, yes - seriously thank you, it *is* a concern on a £1500 amp.


----------



## thatonenoob

technobear said:


> Seriously?
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/4-x-SORBOTHANE-30mm-ANTI-VIBRATION-HEMISPHERES-FEET-Turntables-Speakers-etc-/301093900918?hash=item461a985276:g:QWYAAOxycD9TWUJj
> 
> Problem solved.




Good fix! But indeed it is a valid concern for such an expensive piece of equipment.


----------



## TokenGesture

A £1500 amp should not slide around like a toy. Shot themselves in the foot.


----------



## EVOLVIST

tokengesture said:


> A £1500 amp should not slide around like a toy. Shot themselves in the foot.




It doesn't slide like a toy. I'm fact, it's rather stable. You have to really push or pull it to get it to slide. Yes, it's a little light on its feet compared to most, but I really don't have any problem with it on a wooden desk.


----------



## grdlow

macehane2 said:


> I've been looking at the Pro iCan for a while now as I slowly save up enough to get an amp to live with for a long time, but I am uneasy about its tendency to slide around on a desktop.
> I'm wondering if iFi might make changes to the unit to ameliorate this? I work at a very large desk and I specifically want to use my HD800s with its balanced cable, which is long and quite heavy. Sat here with the cable draped off the side of the desk worries me if it's going to be attached to a small unit that moves.
> I wouldn't know for certain as things stand now, but possibly buying one to find out would be a concern unless I managed to find a place that would permit a refund if it was a problem.
> It has been mentioned a few times in my reading about the Pro, so I wonder, do any of you think iFi might move to address it somehow?


I'm using balanced cables at the input and output sections of the amp. I have no issues. The amp does not slide around.


----------



## JootecFromMars

evolvist said:


>


 
 So how does the Pro iCan compare to the Auditor? I should be getting mine next week to replace my Phonitor Mini. Then swapping out my Micro iDSD for a Yggy (when the local distributor gets some stock that is)


----------



## EVOLVIST

jootecfrommars said:


> So how does the Pro iCan compare to the Auditor? I should be getting mine next week to replace my Phonitor Mini. Then swapping out my Micro iDSD for a Yggy (when the local distributor gets some stock that is)




Hmmm...the iCAN Pro is really close to the Auditor as far as dynamic range; they are both very transparent and clean. If course the iCAN Pro can do much more, because it has the tubes, and is switchable. The Auditor barely edges the iCAN Pro in the soundstage department running balanced with the iCAN Pro, while the Auditor is single ended. That said, the iCAN Pro is no joke, and not one bit a gimmick. It really does what it says it does. Then again, so does the Auditor...and more!


----------



## JootecFromMars

evolvist said:


> Hmmm...the iCAN Pro is really close to the Auditor as far as dynamic range; they are both very transparent and clean. If course the iCAN Pro can do much more, because it has the tubes, and is switchable. The Auditor barely edges the iCAN Pro in the soundstage department running balanced with the iCAN Pro, while the Auditor is single ended. That said, the iCAN Pro is no joke, and not one bit a gimmick. It really does what it says it does. Then again, so does the Auditor...and more!


 
 Thanks. Have you tried a better DAC than the iDSD with both? Wondering if the closeness is down to the DAC and a better class DAC would open up more of a difference. It does sound directly from ifi that the iDAC2 is a better desktop DAC than the iDSD as it has a better RCA out stage.
  
 I like the Phonitor mini a lot. They should be more common than they are.


----------



## MaceHane2

Thanks grdlow, that's good to hear.


----------



## zeissiez

jootecfrommars said:


> evolvist said:
> 
> 
> > Hmmm...the iCAN Pro is really close to the Auditor as far as dynamic range; they are both very transparent and clean. If course the iCAN Pro can do much more, because it has the tubes, and is switchable. The Auditor barely edges the iCAN Pro in the soundstage department running balanced with the iCAN Pro, while the Auditor is single ended. That said, the iCAN Pro is no joke, and not one bit a gimmick. It really does what it says it does. Then again, so does the Auditor...and more!
> ...




Yes indeed. Maybe the DAC is limiting the difference. I have a Phonitor amp which is essentially the same as the Auditor. It's a great audio instrument but not really great for music. While it has decent transparency, nice holographic soundstage, the sound is a tad hollow. I was expecting the iCan Pro to be much better than the Auditor.


----------



## Jimi Zine

So going back to the Ifi idsd Pro DAC? When will this be released now? Any spec/photos? Will this DAC be at the UK National Audio Show in September?


----------



## iFi audio

jimi zine said:


> So going back to the Ifi idsd Pro DAC? When will this be released now? Any spec/photos? Will this DAC be at the UK National Audio Show in September?


 
  
 Hi
  
 RMAF, We only do the Bristol A/V Show and the Gadget Show in the UK.
  
 As the Pro iCAN is out, the look will be the very similar.
  
 Thanks.


----------



## Franatic

.............When will this be released now?...................
  
 iFi, you forgot to answer that one.


----------



## iFi audio

franatic said:


> .............When will this be released now?...................
> 
> iFi, you forgot to answer that one.


 
  
 Hi,
  
 RMAF is the one. 7-9 October.
  
 Cheers.


----------



## Franatic

ifi audio said:


> Hi,
> 
> RMAF is the one. 7-9 October.
> 
> Cheers.


 
 Does that mean that the idsd pro will BOTH be at the show AND available for purchase???


----------



## dan.gheorghe

ifi audio said:


> Hi All.
> 
> Thank Crunchie it is Friday.
> 
> ...


 
 I was wondering why the big difference between the SNR published above and the one on ifi-audio's website? 
  

Signal-to-Noise Ratio (SNR, Balanced/Single-Ended):>147dB(A) / > 137dB(A)
  
 I mean the difference between 117 and 137/147 is incredibly huge. I am not if I know another amplifier to have such specs at the moment. This is why I am asking.


----------



## shockwaver

At last! It has been a long wait.


----------



## gr8soundz

dan.gheorghe said:


> I was wondering why the big difference between the SNR published above and the one on ifi-audio's website?
> 
> 
> Signal-to-Noise Ratio (SNR, Balanced/Single-Ended):>147dB(A) / > 137dB(A)
> ...


 
  
 I asked about the 140dB months ago too after seeing such a high number for the first (and only) time on a headphone amp. Other specs appear to be very different (or heavily revised) as well.
  
 Site shows >14,000mW max balanced but posted specs show >6000mW?
  
 Which is correct and the why the huge variance? Hope it wasn't to spur initial sales with over-hyped specs.........


----------



## EVOLVIST

Wait, the iDSD Pro will be for sale in October?


----------



## Totsipaki

I would say November as an optimistic estimation..


----------



## dan.gheorghe

gr8soundz said:


> I asked about the 140dB months ago too after seeing such a high number for the first (and only) time on a headphone amp. Other specs appear to be very different (or heavily revised) as well.
> 
> Site shows >14,000mW max balanced but posted specs show >6000mW?
> 
> Which is correct and the why the huge variance? Hope it wasn't to spur initial sales with over-hyped specs.........


 
 I have received an answer from iFi:


> The prototype measurements where stated against a different reference value (400mV) than the final ones (20V).
> 
> We changed the published values to be stated in line with those by most of our competitors.


----------



## gr8soundz

Thanks.
  
 So that means iFi published (and still have) prototype specs/measurements on their site based on boosted reference levels.
  
 I realize there is no law on how specs are determined but not cool to give numbers (which some of us use for comparison in blind purchases) that are so far out of line with comparable products.
  
 The numbers don't decide how well the amp performs but I feel bad for those who paid almost 2 grand and thought they were getting 14W of power only to find it's more like 6W (only 2W more than my iDSD Micro; assuming those specs aren't boosted too). Still very powerful for a headphone amp but I bet there are a few HE-6 and K1000 owners out there who may have something to say.


----------



## iFi audio

gr8soundz said:


> I asked about the 140dB months ago too after seeing such a high number for the first (and only) time on a headphone amp. Other specs appear to be very different (or heavily revised) as well.
> 
> Site shows >14,000mW max balanced but posted specs show >6000mW?
> 
> Which is correct and the why the huge variance? Hope it wasn't to spur initial sales with over-hyped specs.........


 
  
 Hi,
  
 >  why the huge variance?
  
 First, some of the early figures (like those given in Jannary 2015) were based on a very different circuit design, which has since been superseded and which performed very differently.
 The current iCAN Pro has ALMOST NOTHING retained from the original design. We did state this upfront a while ago, it is on record! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 The first design was in effect a balanced implementation of the iCAN micro circuitry with some additional improvements (all of which got applied to the iCAN SE). Instead the final iCAN Pro is a ground-up new design with rather different circuit design (all discrete, higher voltages in the internal power-supply etc.). and hence a very much different performance.
  
 The published specifications are based on the test results of the final production units using our Audio Precision 2 test-set the same as they are delivered to customers and supersede any earlier figures.
  
 Second, while preparing final numbers we took notice that while we have over time used reference levels for headphone Amplifiers that were derived from the work of a certain enthusiast who published extensive headphone amplifier measurements on line. We felt his choice of reference levels made good sense in practice. 
  
 However no-one else seemed to have been prepared to state their products specification on an IDENTICAL basis. So with recent products we have reverted to the general industry practice of stating numbers, which for SNR/Dynamic range are generally taken at maximum output, not at an (not entirely arbitrarily low) 400mV reference level and stating output power at the lowest impedance supported. So our numbers are directly comparably with those published by our competitors.
  
 Looking at some competing professional Headphone Amplifiers we find the following stated and specified DNR:
  
 Product 1: 129dB(A)
 Product 2: 135.5dB(A)
 Product 3: 131dB(A) (normalised to maximum output)
  
 The iCAN Pro has significantly lower noise and higher maximum output than the competing products, hence the greater numbers.

 SNR may be specified against maximum output, as dBu (against a 0.775V output) or as dBV (against a 1V output) or against any arbitrary reference. Suitable standard absent the industry practice everyone is free to pick a reference the like. It does not matter as long as the reference level is known it is easy to compare figures like for like.
  
 The iCAN Pro in 0dB Gain mode, Solid-State, Balanced in/out is specified referenced to 20V output for SNR, which results in 147dB, which equals the Dynamic range measurement. If comparison to any other reference level is desired, simply calculate the difference between 20V and this desired reference level in dB and subtract/add the result. 
  
 For example, the difference between 1V and 20V is 26dB, so if we want to compare to 1V reference level the iCAN Pro would have -121dBV (A) SNR.
 Noise scales with gain, so more gain equals the same amount more noise and unbalanced operation is noisier.
  
 Cheers.


----------



## iFi audio

gr8soundz said:


> Thanks.
> 
> So that means iFi published (and still have) prototype specs/measurements on their site based on boosted reference levels.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi,
  
 The power output from the iCAN Pro and iDSD micro are determined in precisely the same way and both numbers hold as published.
  
 The numbers for the iCAN Pro are shown both for Balanced operation (where it is around three times as powerful as  iDSD micro and iCAN SE micro) and Single-Ended (where it is marginally more powerful than iDSD micro and iCAN SE micro).
  
 For higher impedance headphones (above appx. 32 ohm) all iFi Headphone Amplifiers are limited in output only by the maximum Output voltage, power becomes irrelevant (the Amplifier supplies as much power as demanded by the impedance of the headphone). 
  
 So if using balanced outputs and headphones with > 32 Ohm impedance the iCAN Pro will deliver the full 20V or the equivalent a Speaker amplifier rated 50W/8Ohm driving the same headphone directly.
  
 Only for very low impedance headphones (< 32) is there any limitation of the output power due to a lack of available current. The iCAN Pro can deliver around 1,300mA repetitive peak current. This a much greater amount of current than we have found with other headphone amplifiers. 
  
 Ever which way, in balanced mode the output levels suffice in our testing to drive the AKG K1000 into the mechanical limits of the driver before clipping.
  
 Thanks.


----------



## gr8soundz

Thanks for the detailed clarification.
  
 Wasn't aware of the power limitations below 32 ohms but will keep it in mind when using my Micro.


----------



## iFi audio

gr8soundz said:


> Thanks for the detailed clarification.
> 
> Wasn't aware of the power limitations below 32 ohms but will keep it in mind when using my Micro.


 
  
 The 'power limitations' are already accounted for in the rating. If 20V where available with 16 Ohm the power would be 25,000 mW, as only 14,000 mW per channel are rated, this includes the de-rating for the limited current. Equally for the iCAN SE micro and iDSD micro we would expect > 6,250 mW, as the rating is only 4,000mW it is already de-rated.
  
 Given that all low impedance (< 32 Ohm) headphones we know are very efficient it is highly unlikely you ever run into power limits. In fact the only Headphones that require the iCAN SE micro or iDSD micro to be driven near limits are the AKG K1000 and HiFiman HE-6 and a small number of old 600 Ohm Studio Headphones.
  
 Well, suppose you could take a pair of 16 Ohm BBC LS3/5A Studio monitors, attach a head bracket to them and put them on your head.
 With only around 94dB/1,000mW you would only get 100dB peaks which may not be quite loud enough.
  
 If you took Shure SE535-LTD IEM's (which are 36 Ohm rated) instead the maximum output from iCAN SE micro or iDSD micro would produce 153dB - enough to cause necrosis in the tissue inside the ear.


----------



## Esprit

Is it an insane idea to use the Pro iCAN as preamp with active monitors (no mono, no phase button, no balance control...)?


----------



## gr8soundz

esprit said:


> Is it an insane idea to use the Pro iCAN as preamp with active monitors (no mono, no phase button, no balance control...)?


 
  
 Why not use the iTube instead. Same tube as the Pro and designed as a Class A buffer/pre-amp (with gain settings) for speakers (although I use mine connected to a headphone amp).
  
 If you don't need the balanced in/out of the Pro no need to spend 6x the price.


----------



## jbarrentine

I don't understand the ifi product lines at all. There's no "good/better/best" differentiation anywhere on the site and listings seem strewn together. 
  
 Can someone break down what would be useful from a desktop perspective? Especially without a battery, but with one if necessary.


----------



## Cotnijoe

jbarrentine said:


> I don't understand the ifi product lines at all. There's no "good/better/best" differentiation anywhere on the site and listings seem strewn together.
> 
> Can someone break down what would be useful from a desktop perspective? Especially without a battery, but with one if necessary.




Nano is for portable use and, with the exception of the USB3.0, have battery.

Micro is for desktop use without taking up a mad amount of space. In fact, there's a nice rack that helps safe space and make your stack look nice and pretty. They're still small enough that they're also fairly transportable.

The new pro series is the flagship and goes all out. They're bigger and take up more space than the micro series, but still not as big as other desktop components. There's also quite a bit of technology that went into the Pro iCAN.

The Retro stereo 50 is an all in one sort of device that covers both speakers and headphones as well as other really nifty functions such as bluetooth.


----------



## jbarrentine

cotnijoe said:


> Nano is for portable use and, with the exception of the USB3.0, have battery.
> 
> Micro is for desktop use without taking up a mad amount of space. In fact, there's a nice rack that helps safe space and make your stack look nice and pretty. They're still small enough that they're also fairly transportable.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Ok, that makes more sense. What I don't see and am interested in is an all in one unit like the Micro iDSD but without a battery.
  
 I can't help but think that a battery in such a thing plugged up all the time is a needless fire hazard, especially as I would never ever use it in a portable manner. 
  
 Why doesn't such a product exist? Am I missing something?
  
 Many thanks for your reply Cotnijoe.


----------



## Cotnijoe

jbarrentine said:


> Ok, that makes more sense. What I don't see and am interested in is an all in one unit like the Micro iDSD but without a battery.
> 
> I can't help but think that a battery in such a thing plugged up all the time is a needless fire hazard, especially as I would never ever use it in a portable manner.
> 
> ...


 
  
 the Nano iDSD has a bettery. The Micro series iDSD is what you're looking for if you want to optimize performance and ditch the battery.
  
 The naming can get a little confusing since the product names are the same, but the series are different haha. Happy to help


----------



## jbarrentine

cotnijoe said:


> the Nano iDSD has a bettery. The Micro series iDSD is what you're looking for if you want to optimize performance and ditch the battery.
> 
> The naming can get a little confusing since the product names are the same, but the series are different haha. Happy to help


 
  
 But the iFi site says the Micro iDSD has a battery too :\


----------



## Cotnijoe

jbarrentine said:


> But the iFi site says the Micro iDSD has a battery too :\


 
  
 Oh geez yea my brain is scattered. It even charges whatever device you connect it to haha.
  
 I guess then you can wait for the upcoming Pro iDSD. There's some info regarding it now if you dig deeper into this thread.
  
 Time to sleep... ... ...


----------



## jbarrentine

ah, many thanks, I missed that about the pro. I'll go look. Sleep well


----------



## Cotnijoe

jbarrentine said:


> ah, many thanks, I missed that about the pro. I'll go look. Sleep well


 
  
 I'll shoot you a quick PM


----------



## shockwaver

What is next in Pro lineup? Pro iPower as iFi mentioned long ago?


----------



## technobear

jbarrentine said:


> Am I missing something?




Yes.

You are missing the micro iDAC2: http://ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/micro-idac2/


----------



## Trogdor

shockwaver said:


> What is next in Pro lineup? Pro iPower as iFi mentioned long ago?




iDSD (DAC)


----------



## shockwaver

trogdor said:


> iDSD (DAC)




I've been following this thread and know about Pro iDSD.


----------



## Esprit

gr8soundz said:


> Why not use the iTube instead. Same tube as the Pro and designed as a Class A buffer/pre-amp (with gain settings) for speakers (although I use mine connected to a headphone amp).
> 
> If you don't need the balanced in/out of the Pro no need to spend 6x the price.


 
 TNX, I need balanced in/out...


----------



## youurayy

sdolezalek said:


> Given the support that iFi is already giving to DSD512 upsampling in the iMicro, I would expect that the iPro will be more along the lines of what T+A have released in their DAC8 DSD.  It supposedly sounds exceptionally good across a range of source material when that is upsampled to DSD512.  That requires HQPlayer (or similar) and a* fair amount of computing horsepower,* but seems quite worthwhile.  I could see the iPro as being very close in sound but come in at half the $4k price of the T&A.
> 
> THAT, would be worth waiting for; but also a high sonic target.


 
  
 About 20% CPU on Core i5, seems to also be depending on the source material.
  
 In my opinion, the DSD512 upsample is the only way to go into the future really. Doesn't give the PCM DAC any chance to color or distort things up.
  
 And It's not really just "upsample", but the mp3/PCM data are basically rendered into the DSD at a stage where jitter or fluctuating voltages cannot affect it: on the CPU.


----------



## gr8soundz

youurayy said:


> About 20% CPU on Core i5, seems to also be depending on the source material.
> 
> In my opinion, the DSD512 upsample is the only way to go into the future really. Doesn't give the PCM DAC any chance to color or distort things up.
> 
> And It's not really just "upsample", but the mp3/PCM data are basically rendered into the DSD at a stage where jitter or fluctuating voltages cannot affect it: on the CPU.


 
  
 I only use DSD 512 for old, low bit-rate mp3s. Makes them sound much more musical but I think native playback sounds better (less colour, less distortion) for most everything else.
  
 My i7 gets up to 30% usage when transcoding to DSD (I have the asio driver set to type D which has more overhead) so I agree that a good amount of cpu power is needed.


----------



## bluesaint

Just hope IFI don't pull what they did with iDAC2 which was supposed to be a single purpose DAC version of iDSD Micro, but instead of dual BB to create DSD512, they crippled it by only supporting single BB, and thus DSD256.


----------



## youurayy

gr8soundz said:


> I only use DSD 512 for old, low bit-rate mp3s. Makes them sound much more musical but I think native playback sounds better (less colour, less distortion) for most everything else.
> 
> My i7 gets up to 30% usage when transcoding to DSD (I have the asio driver set to type D which has more overhead) so I agree that a good amount of cpu power is needed.


 
  
 I think it's more about the CPU frequency than number of cores or absoute size of the L1/L2/L3 caches. Also make sure you have the latest foo_dsd_asio.
  
 I think for a desktop PC, the 20% is a very small price to pay for the increased detail.
  
 And see -- the A / B / C / D methods -- these are basically 4 different DAC's, or flavor of a DAC, and surely more will be developed in time.
  
 And by moving the rendering to the GPU (also on mobile) we may be able to achieve things like Vinyl or Tube-sound -- in digital. Oh, the future!


----------



## youurayy

bluesaint said:


> Just hope IFI don't pull what they did with iDAC2 which was supposed to be a single purpose DAC version of iDSD Micro, but instead of dual BB to create DSD512, they crippled it by only supporting single BB, and thus DSD256.


 
 I don't think there's any chance they'd do that to the Pro iDSD! If anything, we may see DSD1024!


----------



## Trogdor

bluesaint said:


> Just hope IFI don't pull what they did with iDAC2 which was supposed to be a single purpose DAC version of iDSD Micro, but instead of dual BB to create DSD512, they crippled it by only supporting single BB, and thus DSD256.




How many DSD512 records to you own by chance?


----------



## bluesaint

trogdor said:


> How many DSD512 records to you own by chance?


 
 I think you missed the point from the above postings.  It's all about realtime upsampling to DSD512.  Which I do on a daily basis, and before anyone get into the whole "Can't hear a difference speech," Don't knock it till you try it on a properly setup PC using HQPlayer.


----------



## youurayy

bluesaint said:


> I think you missed the point from the above postings.  It's all about realtime upsampling to DSD512.  Which I do on a daily basis, and before anyone get into the whole "Can't hear a difference speech," Don't knock it till you try it on a properly setup PC using HQPlayer.


 
  
 Well said.
  
 Or the free foobar2000 + foo_dsd_asio + foo_out_asio + foo_input_sacd.
  
 IMO the on-the-fly upsampled tracks sound just as good as natively recorded DSD. Never did A/B testing on the same song though, my gear is not TOTL yet, and the DSD songs are mostly classics / jazz - something my hearing is not "trained" in yet - so let's take that into account. I'm just really satisfied with how the upsampled mp3's and FLAC's sound.


----------



## sdolezalek

Different DAC's respond differently to upsampling.  Some, like the iFi micro and the T+A DAC8 DSD respond extremely well to pretty much everything upsampled to DSD512.  Others, like some of the Chord DACs are more specifically built to sound well with PCM input.  
  
 I don't find that the same files that I have in native DSD256 sound as good when I upsample the Tidal version of that file in 16/44 to DSD256 (which is the highest I can use right now).  It's close, but there is an audible difference.
  
 But there is also an audible difference between a file I only have in 16/44 and listening to that same file upsampled in HQPlayer to DSD256.  
  
 Those owning the T+A DAC and able to upsample to DSD512 report that it is yet another significant step up from using DSD256 (even with that DAC).  
  
 My hope is that AMR/iFi saw some of these new DACs coming out and given that iFi was already focused on the benefits of upsampling, decided to re-engineer the Pro to benefit from some of what others are hearing from the competing (and higher-priced) DSD512 capable DACs already on the market.


----------



## youurayy

The term "upsampling" here is quite a simplification -- the PCM data is literally rendered into DSD the same way it would be rendered by a PCM DAC.
  
 The micro iDSD's PCM DAC sounds very nice btw., I'm not entirely sure why I prefer the DSD conversion, but I do.
  
 Here I found some background on the whole thing (I have yet to read it):
  
 http://www.emmlabs.com/pdf/papers/DerkSigmaDelta.pdf
  


> The driving forces for the use of this technology were pure technical: in the CD era, demands for distortion levels were becoming more stringent, and it proved virtually impossible to create low distortion devices with many (16) bits. Contrary to that, it was much easier to create low-distortion converters using a digital format of 1 bit, which were running at very high sample rates such as 64 or 128 times 44.1 kHz. The conversion of this high speed, 1-bit format to 44.1 kHz/16 CD format can easily be accomplished in the digital domain using filtering and signal processing, which does not introduce any non-linear distortion. This technique has been highly successful, and the so-called ‘oversampling’ and /or ‘bitstream’ technology has dramatically increased the performance of the CD-players in the nineties. In fact, those CD-players were all generating their own DSD internally from the CD source; this DSD would then be fed into a high quality, 1-bit DAC.


 
  
 EDIT: also this is quite revealing:
 http://bitperfectsound.blogspot.com/2014/03/real-time.html
  


> With a multi-bit output - such as PCM itself - the DAC has to create an output voltage which has a magnitude determined by the bit pattern.  The more bits, the more different possible output levels there are.  With 1-bit, there are only two levels - encoded as 1 and 0 - and from an electrical perspective, all a DAC has to do is switch its output between two fixed voltage sources represented by those numbers.  These voltage sources can be, for example +1V and -1V, and can be controlled and regulated with fantastic precision, and with extremely low noise.  The job of the DAC is then simply to switch the output signal line between one voltage source and the other.  This is something you don’t need a chip to do, and is furthermore something you can employ a lifetime of audio electronics circuit design experience to realizing in the best possible manner.


----------



## sdolezalek

Careful, you are standing on the edge of a rabbit's hole of information in which you could be lost for years...
  
 I have found the easiest way to think about it in my own mind is that both processes (PCM and DSD) require further processes (like dithering and filtering) to get from the digital data they represent to the analog music you hear.  The further that the effects of those conversion processes are moved out of the audible range, the less they affect what we hear.  The common misconception is that hi-res or upsampling is about allowing us to hear sounds above 20kHz or to hear steeper transients. Mostly, it is not.  It is simply to prevent other stuff we are doing to the data stream to have any "bad" effects outside the range of our hearing.  
  
 Unfortunately, as good as that may be for our ears, it can wreak havoc on equipment that doesn't like dealing with signals that far out of band, so there is always a balancing consideration of whether your equipment can handle the data.  Fixing the filtering process in the DAC has less impact when your pre-amp, amplifier or speaker inserts a 20kHz brick wall filter that reintroduces all the noise you just tried to move to 40kHz.


----------



## sdolezalek

Look out, here comes the competition (wonder which we will actually see first in the flesh, the new Oppo or the iFi Pro): 

The Absolute Sound just revealed the new Oppo Sonica DAC in its latest Buyer's Guide: 

"The new Oppo Sonica DAC improves upon the highly regarded audio performance of the Oppo HA-1 and BDP-95/105 players and presents an upgraded DAC chipset, the flagship ESS ES9038PRO SABRE DAC. The Sonica DAC combines the convenience of modern network streaming and the hi-fi sound quality of the traditional audiophile DAC. The Sonica app for iOS and Android allows you to conveniently stream music from your smartphone or tablet. The Sonica DAC supports high-resolution PCM and DSD audio via its USB, coaxial, and optical inputs. Additionally, Sonica DAC is a high-resolution audio player and can decode files directly from a connected USB drive, NAS drive, or network shares. Available in Fall 2016. Price: $799."

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/buyers_guides/35/

Not trying to suggest that it will be the sonic equal of the iFi Pro by any means, but given Oppo's history it will almost certainly do DSD256 and set a low price point for a high level of sonic quality.


----------



## EVOLVIST

Yeah, I don't see how the Oppo is in direct competition with the iDSD Pro. I mean, everyone and their dog does DSD these days, even Chord got in on the game, even though Rob Watts doesn't dig on DSD. 

To me, this new Oppo DAC has all of the bells and whistles (and it probably sounds good), for someone who wants a DAC with a small footprint to stream from Tidal and the like.

The iDSD Pro, on the other hand, is a bid for the pro audio market, as a jack of all trades that simultaneously has one foot in the present, while honoring classic designs of the past, which gives it a totally unique class and phylum. That the iDSD Pro also caters to both the solid state and the tube crowd is just another peek to the product. 

I guess I'm a sense it's all competition, because every audio team is looking to get out money, but in the comparison between these two, I think you're looking at two different buying crowds who are looking for two different DAC applications.


----------



## Maelob

As far as I knowThere is no IDSD Pro yet. We are still waiting....


----------



## occamsrazor

The Oppo Sonica seems pretty interesting to me, especially as it will use the new 9038 chip. My main question will be what kind of network streaming it will support....


----------



## Esprit

maelob said:


> As far as I know There is no IDSD Pro yet. We are still waiting....


This is the only real fact...


----------



## technobear

esprit said:


> maelob said:
> 
> 
> > As far as I know There is no IDSD Pro yet. We are still waiting....
> ...




See: http://www.head-fi.org/t/702376/ifi-audio-pro-desktop-line-discussion-thread/1350#post_12783079

Not long now.

Shame iFi won't be at Headroom/Indulgence in London this October but I guess doing that and RMAF would be a stretch.


----------



## Esprit

Nowadays there is nothing and we have nothing: from 1/26/14 (1st post of the thread) we have read a lot of dates...


----------



## Jimi Zine

I'd question the use of Sabre Dac chips for DSD output, I think the best implementations for 'direct native DSD' processing via TI/Burr Brown chipsets and chipless designs, http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue78/dsd.htm


occamsrazor said:


> The Oppo Sonica seems pretty interesting to me, especially as it will use the new 9038 chip. My main question will be what kind of network streaming it will support....


----------



## Jimi Zine

occamsrazor said:


> The Oppo Sonica seems pretty interesting to me, especially as it will use the new 9038 chip. My main question will be what kind of network streaming it will support....


 
 I'd question the use of Sabre Dac chips for DSD output, I think the best implementations for 'direct native DSD' processing via TI/Burr Brown chipsets and chipless designs, http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue78/dsd.htm


----------



## iFi audio

Hey everyone!
  
 We know a lot of you have been anxious to get more impressions of the Pro iCAN as well as more details of the upcoming Pro iDSD. Not to fear! We have some exciting updates that we're excited to share with all of you very soon! Be sure to be on the look out for that.


----------



## Esprit

iDSD Pro price (in Euro...)?


----------



## MLGrado

jimi zine said:


> I'd question the use of Sabre Dac chips for DSD output, I think the best implementations for 'direct native DSD' processing via TI/Burr Brown chipsets and chipless designs, http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue78/dsd.htm
 
  
  
 Chipless designs and the Burr Brown implementation are the same thing.  Just, one is done via discrete parts, the other is on chip  Process is the same though.  
  
 Burr Brown implementation is outstanding, maybe the best?  I haven't had the chance to hear some of the newer 1 bit discrete designs, such as Lampizator, the T+A, Holo Audio, and Miska's open source dac.  
  
 The reason the BB is so good is the outstanding time domain performance.  8 bit delay line, as opposed to others who are using a much, much longer delay line.  The increase in taps means better frequency domain performance, at the expense of time domain.  A workaround is to upsample to DSD256 or DSD512 on these DACs with lots of taps... time domain performance will increase as the speed of the signal increases.  But there is no free lunch.  This creates other issues, requires signal DSP, etc, which is probably NOT what you really want to do with DSD.  (Many would disagree with that, though) Anyway, the 8 bit delay line, and unequally weighted grouping of the 64 bitswitches in all Burr Brown Native DSD dacs is an excellent implementation, and two decades after the venerable DSD1700 chip was introduced, is still a standard bearer.  Of course, this is one of the primary reasons iFi uses this chip rather than ESS.  
  
  
 For those of you who aren't really familiar with what the ESS chipset does with DSD, here is my best stab at it.  ESS actually keeps what really happens in the chip very, very close to the vest, protecting their intellectual property fiercely.  Not even the confidential data sheet says very much!  (Actually, data sheets for ANY dac out there don't say a whole lot, and often what they do say isn't exactly what is going on...) Anyway, again, here is my best stab at it based on what I have read and been told.  
  
  
 ESS does not convert DSD 'natively'.  The closest thing to native conversion we have is applying a FIR filter in the analog domain, like I described above.  That is it.  
  
 ESS doesn't filter DSD in the analog domain.  When a 1- bit bitstream hits the ESS chip, it gets routed to an IIR filter.  You can select the cutoff frequency for this filter (50khz, 60khz, 70khz,).  The OUTPUT of this filter is no longer 1 bit DSD.  The samples that come out are now multi-bit.  (No this is NOT mult-bit delta sigma) Now, the filtering that is uses is a slow rolloff that extends up to around 1 mhz, if my memory is correct.  So the sample rate is not decimated to any of the common PCM rates.  Actually, it is probably a really good filter with excellent time domain characteristics.  Essentially it is the digital version of the analog filter used in the Burr Brown chipset.  The filter, and the fact that things are now multi-bit, is NOT the problem here.  The problem is, when this is done in the analog domain, you are DONE!  The DSD signal has been converted to analog.  The problem is, with the ESS, after this filtering, you are JUST GETTING STARTED.  
  
 While the DSD signal is now in the intermediate format (I am guessing it also goes though a noise-shaper, so its a lower bit high sample rate signal) 32 bit volume control may or may not be applied, and the ASRC jitter eliminator is applied.  Then after that, the signal is converted back to delta sigma in the Hyperstream multi-stream modulator.  And then that is likely analog filtered, as well, for the final output.  
  
 So, what I am getting at, is the ESS chip does a LOT more with the DSD signal.  Lots of DSP and conversions to get to an end result.  The other way is much more simple.  The signal is already in a state where a single analog filtering is all that is required for conversion.  
  
  
 NOW don't get me wrong here... the ESS way apparently sound very, very good!  Which way is technically better doesn't really matter.. all that matters is what the listener is hearing.  If it sounds great, so what!  But, on paper, I just can't see the ESS way as being the better solution, and I can't see how you could call it native DSD conversion.  
  
  
 Anyway.... sorry about the long post... I AM indeed looking forward to the iDSD Pro DAC.  Saving my pennies.  On my must buy list!


----------



## Jimi Zine

mlgrado said:


> Chipless designs and the Burr Brown implementation are the same thing.  Just, one is done via discrete parts, the other is on chip  Process is the same though.
> 
> Burr Brown implementation is outstanding, maybe the best?  I haven't had the chance to hear some of the newer 1 bit discrete designs, such as Lampizator, the T+A, Holo Audio, and Miska's open source dac.
> 
> ...


 
 Excellent post thanks

 I have owned the ifi idsd nano and micro in the past and was 'convinced' by their DSD output in a way I am not with a more expensive Exasound E12 DAC. In the Exasound DSD and PCM sound suspiciously similar, which is a great sound in many ways but lacking something I heard from DSD content specifically, in the Ifi Audio DACs.
 In truth I only bought the Exasound because the Ifi idsd Pro (or mini as it was then) was seemingly not happening, and i don't regret it seen as we're still waiting now some years on, however now I have sorted the other elements in my chain, I'm looking forward to upgrading back to an Ifi DAC with the Burr Brown chipset.


----------



## youurayy

mlgrado said:


> ...newer 1 bit discrete designs, such as Lampizator...


 
  
 Fantastic post. I wonder if you would mind shedding some light on the Lampizator DSD implementation. Their entry-level product is now €1.8k (Amber 2 / Euforia), I wonder if that's the same price-league as the upcoming iDSD Pro.


----------



## Jimi Zine

youurayy said:


> Fantastic post. I wonder if you would mind shedding some light on the Lampizator DSD implementation. Their entry-level product is now €1.8k (Amber 2 / Euforia), I wonder if that's the same price-league as the upcoming iDSD Pro.


 
 Thing is the Lampizator is £1.8k euros + taxes and won't do Quad DSD or higher, you have to go up to the new Atlantic for that with is €4K + taxes. 

 Review for Euphoria (DSD Only) - http://positive-feedback.com/reviews/hardware-reviews/lampizator-euforia-dac/

 Review for Atlantic - https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2016/09/03/review-lampizator-atlantic-dac/


----------



## youurayy

jimi zine said:


> Thing is the Lampizator is £1.8k euros + taxes and won't do Quad DSD or higher, you have to go up to the new Atlantic for that with is €4K + taxes.
> 
> Review for Euphoria (DSD Only) - http://positive-feedback.com/reviews/hardware-reviews/lampizator-euforia-dac/
> 
> Review for Atlantic - https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2016/09/03/review-lampizator-atlantic-dac/


 
  
 True, I forgot taxes. Euforia can have DSD512 for €500, Amber 2 for €1k. Lukasz seems to think anything above DSD128 is overkill though.
  
 I have Amber 2 on order currently.


----------



## Jimi Zine

youurayy said:


> True, I forgot taxes. Euforia can have DSD512 for €500, Amber 2 for €1k. Lukasz seems to think anything above DSD128 is overkill though.
> 
> I have Amber 2 on order currently.


 
 I think Quad is the reasonable place to stop, I have records in quad but nothing in 512, hope Amber II works out for you, I am thinking of going Ifi iusb3.0 + idsd Micro for now while the idsd pro continues


----------



## youurayy

jimi zine said:


> I think Quad is the reasonable place to stop, I have records in quad but nothing in 512, hope Amber II works out for you, I am thinking of going Ifi iusb3.0 + idsd Micro for now while the idsd pro continues


 
 Thanks. I render my mp3/FLAC into DSD512, my max native DSD is also just 256 I think. Loving the iDSD micro currently, the functionality for the price is still a steal. But yeah the micro got me DSD-addicted. The only reason I'm getting the Lampi also with PCM is for compatiblity with Blu-ray and other PCM sources.


----------



## iFi audio

Hey everyone!
  
 We're thrilled to announce some exciting news regarding the Pro iCAN as well as what's to come of the Pro iDSD! 
  
 Make sure to check it out in the link HERE!


----------



## Jimi Zine

Great, part exchanged my Exasound E12 for the Ifi idsd Micro & iusb3.0 units, sound is equal or slightly better (DSD material) to my ears, everything else being equal, even though half the retail price. Now I can try and wait patiently for the 2017 release of the idsd Pro.


----------



## XSAMURAI

Is there any update for electrostatic Energiser ?


----------



## iFi audio

xsamurai said:


> Is there any update for electrostatic Energiser ?


 
  
 We are cautiously optimistic.....but we are shooting for RMAF. The marketing team is harassing the R&D team daily for you guys!


----------



## iFi audio

Guess who's paying us a visit in Denver in just two weeks?
  
*Hint:* There may be some Pro triple stacking involved.
  

  
 We have a few more surprised up our sleeves. Be sure to check back for all the details!


----------



## tf1216




----------



## Lord Raven

When is the release date of iDSD Pro?


----------



## blance44

Is there anything in the works for an iFi iDAC Pro?


----------



## EVOLVIST

blance44 said:


> Is there anything in the works for an iFi iDAC Pro?




Yes. It's called the iDSD Pro.


----------



## blance44

I'm more so wondering about a standalone DAC to pair up with an iCan pro.


----------



## Lord Raven

It's going to be a 2000 dollar investment.


----------



## EVOLVIST

blance44 said:


> I'm more so wondering about a standalone DAC to pair up with an iCan pro.




The headphone implementation has very little to do with the price of the iDSD Pro. It makes the unit more flexible, but you're paying very little for that. You're paying for the R&D and the sound.


----------



## dan.gheorghe

Overdue, but here is my review of iCan Pro:
 https://headmania.org/2016/09/27/ifi-pro-ican-headphone-amplifier-review/


----------



## blance44

evolvist said:


> The headphone implementation has very little to do with the price of the iDSD Pro. It makes the unit more flexible, but you're paying very little for that. You're paying for the R&D and the sound.


 
 I understand that but in my experience, separate dacs and amps sound better than combo units. That's the only reason I would want it that way. I understand that for convenience sake, the idsd is perfect and I know it will sound fantastic. I just know it could sound even better as two separate units. Especially since iFi has developed the esl pro, it would be even better having a standalone dac from them in the pro line-up and in that particular case, more versatile. Not to mention that AMR/iFi make some of the best dacs in the world. Having an iFi pro line standalone dac would be icing on the cake.


----------



## tunes

Confused about which optical cable to buy for connecting the QP1R to my iFi micro ican SE amplifier. The QP1R has a 3.5 mm optical out and an adapter for toslink. So which is better coax or Toslink for this application and what is the best short cable to buy that won't kink and give the best SQ?


----------



## technobear

tunes said:


> Confused about which optical cable to buy for connecting the QP1R to my iFi micro ican SE amplifier. The QP1R has a 3.5 mm optical out and an adapter for toslink. So which is better coax or Toslink for this application and what is the best short cable to buy that won't kink and give the best SQ?




The micro iCAN SE is a headphone amplifier. It is not a DAC. It has no digital input. You must use the line out if the QP1R has one.


----------



## tesox

Thank you very much for the review dan.gheorghe !
  
 I've read many of your reviews and the "Black Dragon" review leads me to buy one and I love it (as a dac, HPA is average).
 I own an ifi Pro iCan for a couple of weeks now and I can't tell enough how much I enjoy this amp.
  
 What I don't like so much about your reviews (no offence!) is the glorification of the Master 9 bass reproduction.
 If I read trough the reviews it always ends with the conclusion "The bass on Master 9 is faster, has more control, is deper  ...."
 or something similar.
 Sorry but I can't believe that so many high end flagship products are all not able to achieve an exellent bass performance
 or go not as deep as the master 9, even if specs or measurements show a total flat frequency response down to a level
 where it is the headphone that is not capable to reproduce this frequencies anymore.
  
 For me the bass on the ifi Pro iCan is exellent, fast, deep and controlled and yes it is not impressive, it just sounds right!
 Btw, I also disagree in terms of soundstage. It is only intimate if the songs is recorded that way.
 It can be massive and extremely holographic.


----------



## dan.gheorghe

tesox said:


> Thank you very much for the review dan.gheorghe !
> 
> I've read many of your reviews and the "Black Dragon" review leads me to buy one and I love it (as a dac, HPA is average).
> I own an ifi Pro iCan for a couple of weeks now and I can't tell enough how much I enjoy this amp.
> ...


 
 Thank you tesox. 

 I am not trying to glorify a product. I am just trying to make a comparison between 2 products and that is how I hear it. I just find the bass on M9 superior to the one from iFi and actually as you said to most of what I have heard on the market from the competition . That is my honest opinion. 
  
 Regarding the soundstage, indeed it sounds very holographic, more so than Master 9 for example, but not as immersive.  
  
 These being said, this is the first amplifier I've heard in a while that I would live happily with instead of Master 9.


----------



## iFi audio

dan.gheorghe said:


> Thank you tesox.
> 
> I am not trying to glorify a product. I am just trying to make a comparison between 2 products and that is how I hear it. I just find the bass on M9 superior to the one from iFi and actually as you said to most of what I have heard on the market from the competition . That is my honest opinion.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi all. Our senior guys know Dan and he is a great guy/reviewer. At the end of the day, audio is subjective and so we are absolutely over the moon with Dan's review. All good here!


----------



## tesox

ifi audio said:


> Hi all. Our senior guys know Dan and he is a great guy/reviewer. At the end of the day, audio is subjective and so we are absolutely over the moon with Dan's review. All good here!




Like I said..... no offense!
What a great reviewer and great guy dan is (and I really think he is) was never part of anything I said,
but some constructive criticism should be allowed.

I just took party for "your" product, wich I think is outstanding and I have a little experience on my own.
The term "bass ... didn't find it impressive" is nothing I would be happy with from your perspective.
Do you agree that the Pro iCan's bass is not impressive? 
Are there any flaws in the design wich could cause an unimpressive bass performance or lacking deep bass response?
I didn't think so.
Maybe it is an subpar input/output impedance matching with the dac ...

The thing is, if this review had been out before I decided to buy the Pro iCan I possibly had
rethought my decission because "bass is not impressive" is a killer judgement for me.

@dan.gheorghe
I understand your point but I think you write your reviews not just for yourself
but also to give other people an impression of a product.
In this regard it is not helpful to compare everything against a super exotic boutique amplifier.
I bet if I had asked every single visitor of the CanJam (germany) last weekend if
they ever listened to an audio gd master 9 there had been only two answers:

What is audio gd? or just No.

To give a more helpful comparison:
The bass is more impressive than on Auralic MK II. It is faster, more controlled and cleaner but also a hint more full bodied (solid state mode).

And again: No offense!!!


----------



## iFi audio

tesox said:


> I just took party for "your" product, wich I think is outstanding and I have a little experience on my own.
> The term "bass ... didn't find it impressive" is nothing I would be happy with from your perspective.
> Do you agree that the Pro iCan's bass is not impressive?
> Are there any flaws in the design wich could cause an unimpressive bass performance or lacking deep bass response?
> ...


 
  
 All good. Personally, we prefer clean, tight deep bass and that's what we have implemented. Plus, the X-Bass is pretty trick anyway.
  
 Things depend on the headphone too but ultimately we prefer to let people listen and come to their own conclusions.


----------



## dan.gheorghe

tesox said:


> Like I said..... no offense!
> What a great reviewer and great guy dan is (and I really think he is) was never part of anything I said,
> but some constructive criticism should be allowed.
> 
> ...


 
   
 I have mentioned in the PRO section that the bass itself is good. In my opinion it's just not as impressive as on Master 9. It's just a term of comparison. And I think that the midrange/natural voicing/transparency are the reasons that make this amplifier quite special.
  
  I find it useful when I read comparison details between 2 or more products in reviews. No I don't write the reviews just for myself  I don't find Master 9 to be a boutique amplifier. 
  
 Master 9 has been here on headfi for a while now and some comparisons were done here before, even between the famous GSX MK2 and M9. 
  
  
 Until iFi ICan Pro I couldn't recommend any other amplifier at a similar price except Master  9 ( I found it quite better than the moon 430 for example which is more than twice the price) .
  
  
 Quote:


ifi audio said:


> Hi all. Our senior guys know Dan and he is a great guy/reviewer. At the end of the day, audio is subjective and so we are absolutely over the moon with Dan's review. All good here!


 
 Thank you for the kind words. Congrats for releasing an awesome product!
  
 Btw, any plans to release a speaker amplifier with specs like that?


----------



## iFi audio

As many of you have already seen, we have some *VERY* exciting products in the works for our Pro line.
  
 But we have more to be excited about for RMAF 2016!


----------



## bluesaint

ifi audio said:


> As many of you have already seen, we have some *VERY* exciting products in the works for our Pro line.
> 
> But we have more to be excited about for RMAF 2016!


 
 So still no iDSD Pro?  Can you guys shed any light on iDSD Pro?


----------



## iFi audio

bluesaint said:


> So still no iDSD Pro?  Can you guys shed any light on iDSD Pro?


 
  
 We will have a preview unit of the Pro iDSD at RMAF 2016


----------



## iFi audio

Well, Pro iDSD is almost here. As per usual, we can't give too much specifics, teasers will have to do the trick today... But let's take it one day at a time and dang, things are going to get heavy. Stay with us just a little longer!




Juicy details are to be served very soon. In the meantime, enjoy!


----------



## bmichels

Is It a 1 box design (electrostatic Amp ) or à 2 boxes design ( Amp + Energiser ) ?

Will this work for my SR009 Stax ?


----------



## Franatic

ifi audio said:


> Well, Pro iDSD is almost here. As per usual, we can't give too much specifics, teasers will have to do the trick today... But let's take it one day at a time and dang, things are going to get heavy. Stay with us just a little longer!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Sounds like what we have heard many times before................


----------



## youurayy

ifi audio said:


> Well, Pro iDSD is almost here. As per usual, we can't give too much specifics, teasers will have to do the trick today... But let's take it one day at a time and dang, things are going to get heavy. Stay with us just a little longer!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 the vents seem to suggest that tubes are involved


----------



## iFi audio

Skin says it's OK to show this piece, so there you have it!


----------



## youurayy

ifi audio said:


> Skin says it's OK to show this piece, so there you have it!


 
 DSD1024, tubes, external atomic clock. OMG.


----------



## grdlow

looking forward to some listening impressions from the RMAF


----------



## GHoldridge

I want so hard to justify getting a Ifi pro unit. Unfortunately I wouldn't use the Ifi pro to its fullest...though it would use my gear to its fullest. The amount of options you can tweak is very appealing and applying it to headphones or speakers. Maybe I'll get lucky, and they will release an itube 2 with added functions like extra input/output xbass 3d sound.


----------



## wuwhere

bmichels said:


> Is It a 1 box design (electrostatic Amp ) or à 2 boxes design ( Amp + Energiser ) ?
> 
> Will this work for my SR009 Stax ?


 
  
 The energizer is a separate box. The energizer should work with other speaker amps unless I'm wrong.
  
 My other question is if I use a vacuum tube speaker amp with output transformers, what impedance does this energizer presents to the amp?


----------



## iFi audio

wuwhere said:


> The energizer is a separate box. The energizer should work with other speaker amps unless I'm wrong.
> 
> My other question is if I use a vacuum tube speaker amp with output transformers, what impedance does this energizer presents to the amp?


 
 Yes, it does work with speaker amps. The interaction details between our device and said amplifiers will be revealed very soon.


----------



## iFi audio

And we have some RMAF coverage! Enjoy!


----------



## shockwaver

So, there are 3 iPower Plus under the desk, being connected to each Pro unit.
 it would be nice to have a DC power plant.


----------



## iFi audio

shockwaver said:


> So, there are 3 iPower Plus under the desk, being connected to each Pro unit.
> it would be nice to have a DC power plant.


 
 Tempting, ain't it  ?
  
 In the meantime, it's time to let the skelly out of our closet!
  

  
And here are some additional pictures from our booth directly!


----------



## hugoboss

i saw there is speaker amplifier in the stacks
 is it a first ifi spekaer amplifier to launch in pro line also?
 can't wait to see some specs


----------



## EVOLVIST

I don't think because we're not at the show we should be penalized by not getting the specs for the iDSD Pro.


----------



## sandalaudio

So is the Pro iDSD something I should consider upgrading from my Micro iDAC2?
 Or is it intended as more of an all-in-one DAC+amp thing like the iDSD name suggests.
  
 I just need a good fixed line output DAC, and I'm quite happy with the iDAC2 so I don't want to change to just anything.


----------



## Jimi Zine

Will be posted here I imagine - http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f30-abbingdon-music-research-ifi-audio-sponsored/ifi-audio-pro-idsd-official-thread-its-happening-folks-30086/#post588794


----------



## iFi audio

jimi zine said:


> Will be posted here I imagine - http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f30-abbingdon-music-research-ifi-audio-sponsored/ifi-audio-pro-idsd-official-thread-its-happening-folks-30086/#post588794


 
 Here as well. We treat both places seriously, so if anything specs related is published on CA, it will be seen here too.
  
 In the meantime, from RMAF directly:


----------



## MLGrado

ifi audio said:


> Tempting, ain't it  ?
> 
> In the meantime, it's time to let the skelly out of our closet!


 
  
 iFi!  This is me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  hahahaha
  
 One of the first of the Octa Adopters and will be (or at least planned to be) first in line for the iDsd Pro.  
  
  
 I have a confession to make.  In the meantime, I could not wait any longer.  I went to the dark side for my DSD.  (ESS chipset DAC) 
  
 It sounds great!!!!!!  Even the DSP polluted DSD signal, with its digital IIR filter, multi bit, any thing but DSD signal that gets even more DSP in the sample rate converter.  (no volume control used here)  And then there is more... but, you get my point?  Even after all that it still sounds great!  But, admittedly, it sounds very much like PCM!  Very little differentiation in the sound of DSD and PCM on this particular DAC.  
  
  
 SOOO..... I guess I am indeed going to get back in line for the iDSD PRO.  I can't wait to here the best Native DSD iFi will have offered to date!!!!  
  
  
 Thanks for all your hard work, and innovation!!!!


----------



## EVOLVIST

So, now that RMAF is over, isn't it about time that we see the final specs in the iDSD Pro and what it can do?


----------



## Esprit

After Brexit they need to think again to the price list...


----------



## occamsrazor

Doesn't help much in terms of details, but there's another pic here:

http://www.soundstageglobal.com/index.php/shows-events/rmaf-2016-denver-usa/208-rmaf-2016-features/658-rmaf-2016-headphone-amps


----------



## sandalaudio

occamsrazor said:


> Doesn't help much in terms of details, but there's another pic here:
> 
> http://www.soundstageglobal.com/index.php/shows-events/rmaf-2016-denver-usa/208-rmaf-2016-features/658-rmaf-2016-headphone-amps


 
  
 Thanks for the great link. All the new products look really fancy and unique. It shows how iFi has to work extra hard to compete in such a hyped and saturated market for headphones related gear.


----------



## Esprit

What is that hole(?) in the right?


----------



## XSAMURAI

esprit said:


> What is that hole(?) in the right?


 
 IR Remote Control


----------



## Esprit

It seems to me different: iDSD vs. iCAN


----------



## gr8soundz

They're both IR receivers.
  
 Reflective light in photo hits the iDSD more so they look different from that angle but in other photos they look the same.
  
 Look at all the pics and videos starting down from this posts:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/795344/ifi-ican-pro-impressions-discussion/330#post_12918553


----------



## Esprit

Hey iFi Team!
 I need the "phase button" on iDSD Pro...


----------



## Esprit

What is the difference between ‘this’ and ‘that’?


----------



## bluesaint

evolvist said:


> So, now that RMAF is over, isn't it about time that we see the final specs in the iDSD Pro and what it can do?


 
 this.


----------



## Jimi Zine

A few details about Ifi idsd Pro DAC here via Positive Feedback Publication - http://positive-feedback.com/show-reports/discoveries-rocky-mountain-audio-fest-2016/


----------



## sandalaudio

jimi zine said:


> A few details about Ifi idsd Pro DAC here via Positive Feedback Publication - http://positive-feedback.com/show-reports/discoveries-rocky-mountain-audio-fest-2016/


 
  
 Thanks for sharing that info. It looks like quite some time away until we get more detailed info about the Pro iDSD.


----------



## GHoldridge

That price though.. I hope that's just msrp.


----------



## sdolezalek

Here we are, aproaching 100 pages of thread responses and the third anniversary of this thread (started Jan 2014).  During those three years DAC technology has progressed tremendously overall.  I wonder whether iFi feels that the product they soon plan on actually making available to us will, at a higher pricepoint than originally contemplated, be as competitive in today's market as the product they originally contemplated might have been in 2014? Which has progressed faster, iFi's overall DAC-related R&D or the industry as a whole?  I also wonder how many of us who said "this will be my next DAC" when they first read this thread, are still waiting to purchase that "next DAC"?


----------



## Franatic

sdolezalek said:


> Here we are, aproaching 100 pages of thread responses and the third anniversary of this thread (started Jan 2014).  During those three years DAC technology has progressed tremendously overall.  I wonder whether iFi feels that the product they soon plan on actually making available to us will, at a higher pricepoint than originally contemplated, be as competitive in today's market as the product they originally contemplated might have been in 2014? Which has progressed faster, iFi's overall DAC-related R&D or the industry as a whole?  I also wonder how many of us who said "this will be my next DAC" when they first read this thread, are still waiting to purchase that "next DAC"?


 
 I got an idsd micro in Nov 2014. It was great as a DAC in my main system. I am very impressed with the performance of this unit at its price point. As soon as I heard of the development of the Pro (which was called the mini at the time), I planned on buying it as my next upgrade. The micro would go on to portable use when the Pro appeared.
 I have been following this thread since I bought the micro, hoping for this amazing upgrade that I was sure iFi would produce. Back in April 2016 after another delay, backtrack/redesign/??? hit the Pro, I had enough. I got a steal on a used W4S DAC2-DSDse for $1300. This was definitely an upgrade over the micro as a main DAC. I am glad I did because the Pro is still not out and I'm also wondering how good it will be with all the stiff competition out there. I will consider it when it comes out as I love iFi equipment.
 Let me say this: The iFi micro idsd is a killer product. I am currently using it as a DAC in a portable setup with a Fiio X5's digital coax out. This setup is awesome. You did a great job with that product iFi.
 I will certainly pay attention to reviews if this product ever actually emerges in the marketplace. The bar has definitely been raised since this thread was started.


----------



## sdolezalek

In fairness to iFi, we don't really know how long competitors products have been on the design board as they usually don't get announced and we certainly don't get any input into their design.  I would also guess that a fair number of the ancillary products that iFi has announced over the last two years in particular have come about as a result of design work on the Pro iDSD and Pro iCan and it was easier to release products like the iDefender 3.0, the iSilencer3.0, the iUSD3.0, the iTube, the iPurifier, and the iPower, and generate revenue from them, even as their technologies eventually get incorporated into the iDSD Pro.  
  
 The other thing that has changed over this three year period is the development and improvement of upsampling software players (like HQPlayer, Audirvana/iZotope and JRiver) which have certainly changed my perspective of what I want in a DAC (something that sounds great with a continuously improving and upgradeable software front end and ideally allws me to feed it my choice of DSD512 or DXD).  In that regard, iFi seems to still be well positioned.


----------



## Dithyrambes

Was gonna get a Ipro, but at 2k, its just too expensive really. Unless it can handily smack down a Schiit Yggy, I dunno. Sure it has a headphone amplifier, but for people spending in that region, they usually pick and match components seperately. Now I have my sights on either a Schiit Gumby+amp like liquid carbon, or Holo Spring Dac Level 2.


----------



## JWahl

sdolezalek said:


> Here we are, aproaching 100 pages of thread responses and the third anniversary of this thread (started Jan 2014).  During those three years DAC technology has progressed tremendously overall.  I wonder whether iFi feels that the product they soon plan on actually making available to us will, at a higher pricepoint than originally contemplated, be as competitive in today's market as the product they originally contemplated might have been in 2014? Which has progressed faster, iFi's overall DAC-related R&D or the industry as a whole?  I also wonder how many of us who said "this will be my next DAC" when they first read this thread, are still waiting to purchase that "next DAC"?





Yikes, I'm surprised I'm still following this after starting the thread that long ago. 

I think saying DAC technology has progressed tremendously, even over the last 10 years, is a little hyberbolic. There's been improvements to USB stages and such and products offering generally better value due to competition. 

The effect of the latter has been mostly the result of Schiit's very aggressive value for dollar offerings across the board, really pushing competition in the benefit of consumers. It's less that technology has improved, but creative engineering has found ways to implement existing technology in more cost effective ways, offering better value for money.


----------



## sandalaudio

sdolezalek said:


> I also wonder how many of us who said "this will be my next DAC" when they first read this thread, are still waiting to purchase that "next DAC"?


 
  
 For those people with some business degree, does anyone know if there is some formal terminology for when a company announces a product way ahead of the actual release date, to give the consumers a false sense of commitment and hold off on buying other competitor products?
  
 I find this very common in headphone/portable audio, such as with Chinese DAPs (e.g. iBasso DX200, Fiio T3 threads run long and far from being released).
  
 We don't see this as much for bigger audio gear, nor other consumer electronics, such as smartphones and laptops where the product cycle is fairly predictable, or with bigger whiteware or TVs where people don't care as much for the newest and the best.


----------



## sdolezalek

Yes, the term is "vaporware" but I definately do not feel that is what iFi were doing here.


----------



## sandalaudio

sdolezalek said:


> Yes, the term is "vaporware" but I definately do not feel that is what iFi were doing here.


 
  
 Oh wow. I've heard that word before but never really knew what it means. Thanks.
  
 I agree that iFi is not specifically doing that, and the already-available Pro iCAN does sound impressive.
  
 It just feels like the market for DACs, amps and DAPs etc are so saturated right now, that it must be very hard for companies to differentiate their products and draw our attention long enough to care.
  
 Personally I love my micro iDSD, and bought a micro iDAC2 for a fixed line level DAC, and I want to upgrade that to something a bit more substantial, but the Pro series maybe too expensive for my budget.


----------



## Esprit

First Brexit with hypothetical new customs duties from UK to EU, now Trump with hypothetical new customs duties from UK to USA...
 I think they will have to move the company's headquarters


----------



## bluesaint

Guess they been focusing on this instead

http://www.head-fi.org/t/728236/ifi-idsd-micro-dsd512-pcm768-dac-and-headphone-amp-impressions-reviews-and-comments/7005#post_12998164


----------



## Esprit

http://www.matrix-digi.com/en/products/129/index.html


----------



## Esprit

Nowadays the "pro" term is most popular...
  
_GUSTARD X20 PRO:_
  
_Double ES9028PRO,native full balance,a class division line,double power source._
_The first domestic adaptive master clock technology,two asynchronous and synchronous clock mode._
_Clock management,2nd PLL digital plastic,DOP demodulation,PCM/DSD depop exclusive technology such as the switch._
_The whole interface support DSD DOP decoding,PCM384K DSD256._


----------



## Franatic

dithyrambes said:


> Was gonna get a Ipro, but at 2k, its just too expensive really. Unless it can handily smack down a Schiit Yggy, I dunno. Sure it has a headphone amplifier, but for people spending in that region, they usually pick and match components seperately. Now I have my sights on either a Schiit Gumby+amp like liquid carbon, or Holo Spring Dac Level 2.


 
 Completely agree with you  on the headphone amp. I have a Woo WA2 so a  headphone amp section will be wasted. To have a dac only version for say $1500 would position this product perfectly in my world.


----------



## blance44

franatic said:


> Completely agree with you  on the headphone amp. I have a Woo WA2 so a  headphone amp section will be wasted. To have a dac only version for say $1500 would position this product perfectly in my world.


 
 I asked about something like that earlier in the thread but no one understood what I was talking about or completely dismissed the idea. I actually think that at that price point, they might even sell more of the dac only version because a lot of people like to tailor their dac and amp to their headphones. Plus, I have always believed that keeping the dac and amp section as separate as possible generally increases clarity and imaging by reducing distortion and crosstalk. But then again, that's just me and I could be in the wrong here.


----------



## Rod Welst

Got my Music Direct #2017 catalog today... Turn to page #70... iFi Pro iDSD DAC $1,999.00 USA
  
http://ifi-audio.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/161030-8.jpg


----------



## sdolezalek

Very interesting as it is not on their website and I haven't yet received my catalog.  Does it say anything about shipping status?


----------



## Rod Welst

sdolezalek said:


> Very interesting as it is not on their website and I haven't yet received my catalog.  Does it say anything about shipping status?


 
 Sorry... I would call their phone number... 800-449-8333 and outside the USA... 312-433-0200 during normal business hours...


----------



## gr8soundz

Music Direct always lists iFi stuff early. Sometimes months before it's available.


----------



## iFi audio

On a side note, every one of you out there into our Pro series, should take a look at our *Micro iDSD Black Label Preview and Tour*.
  

  
  
 Why, you ask? That's very simple...
  
 One lucky person will get our *Pro iDSD* for a long term loan (6 months), yay!


----------



## tranfa

Maybe it's me, but the link seems bringing to the wrong page...


Inviato dal mio iPhone utilizzando Tapatalk


----------



## tranfa

Now the link works, thank you.


----------



## etc6849

Loving my new toys that came today: Pro iCan and Audeze LCD-3.  Any chance you could give a month/year time frame for when the Pro iDSD will come to your US authorized dealers?  If you don't want to publicly post it, feel free to PM me and I promise to keep my lips sealed and might even preorder it if you let me!
  
 Fantastic job on the Pro iCan.  Dynamics are incredible with my new headphones and also with my HD800's.  So much remaining headroom on the dial compared to the Oppo HA-1 I was using.  Build quality is very very good too.
  
 I now realize my Oppo HA-1 ESS DAC really sounds too analytic like it has too much/over exaggerated detail after listening to your Micro iDSD in my hotel room all week.  Could be all in my head though, but I swear they sound different.  Can't wait for the Pro iDSD now.
  
 EDIT:  Just hooked this as a preamp for my bedroom speakers (Klipsch Palladium P-17b).  Wow, what a great little preamp.  May have to move it to my main setup!  Bookshelf speakers are driven by an Emotiva XPR-2:  http://www.audioholics.com/amplifier-reviews/emotiva-xpr-2-pre  

  
  
  
 Quote:


ifi audio said:


> On a side note, every one of you out there into our Pro series, should take a look at our *Micro iDSD Black Label Preview and Tour*.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## iFi audio

etc6849 said:


>


 
 Thanks for good word. Hopefully you won't have to wait for Pro iDSD too long!


----------



## etc6849

You're welcome.  Any chance you could provide IR codes (pronto classic CCF format would be great, but I can convert most codes easily)?  Is there a way to turn the unit on/off with the remote or is the circuitry not there to do that even if you provided extra IR codes?
  
 Is it ill advised to use a z-wave appliance outlet or other remote controllable power strip to turn the unit on/off by removing power to the iPower Plus brick?
  
  
 Quote:


ifi audio said:


> Thanks for good word. Hopefully you won't have to wait for Pro iDSD too long!


----------



## iFi audio

etc6849 said:


> You're welcome. Any chance you could provide IR codes (pronto classic CCF format would be great, but I can convert most codes easily)? Is there a way to turn the unit on/off with the remote or is the circuitry not there to do that even if you provided extra IR codes? Is it ill advised to use a z-wave appliance outlet or other remote controllable power strip to turn the unit on/off by removing power to the iPower Plus brick?


 
  
 Let me check on that and I'll get back to you once I know more.


----------



## iFi audio

Without getting too much into technicals, IR topic is closed in Pro iCAN. It has to stay the way it is now.


----------



## etc6849

No problem.  Thanks for the quick response!
  
 For a future revision if keeping the circuit layout and noise level as clean as possible means IR can't turn the unit on/off (understandable as sound quality should always come first), one thing to consider is an optically isolated 12V trigger as this would be a much simpler circuit to implement.  Of course, no doubt your engineers looked into this and there's a reason this too wasn't included.
  
 Quote:


ifi audio said:


> Without getting too much into technicals, IR topic is closed in Pro iCAN. It has to stay the way it is now.


----------



## Franatic

A whole new generation of DACs are coming.........The bar is constantly being raised. 
  
 Here is an interesting new entry:
 http://matrix-digi-usa.com/x-sabre_pro
  
 At this price point and without the headphone amp section I don't need, it is stiff competition indeed.


----------



## bmoura

franatic said:


> A whole new generation of DACs are coming.........The bar is constantly being raised.
> 
> Here is an interesting new entry:
> http://matrix-digi-usa.com/x-sabre_pro
> ...


 

 New DACs with DSD are coming out all the time. 
 Almost 500 of them now.
  
 As for "the bar is constantly being raised", its best to listen to them first before reaching that conclusion.
 Some of the newer DAC models with new DAC chips aren't necessarily better sounding than earlier models in my experience.  
  
 NativeDSD DAC List at http://www.nativedsd.com/database


----------



## Franatic

bmoura said:


> New DACs with DSD are coming out all the time.
> Almost 500 of them now.
> 
> As for "the bar is constantly being raised", its best to listen to them first before reaching that conclusion.
> ...


 
 Thanks for that list.........I'll read up and as always, wait for reviews before any purchase. Design and implementation is critical with any DAC chip. I find it best to be patient.The iFi idsd Pro is still the leading candidate for my next DAC, but it is good to shop.


----------



## bmoura

franatic said:


> Thanks for that list.........I'll read up and as always, wait for reviews before any purchase. Design and implementation is critical with any DAC chip. I find it best to be patient.The iFi idsd Pro is still the leading candidate for my next DAC, but it is good to shop.


 
 I think the iDSD Pro will do well.  To me, it sounds a lot like the Pro iCAN. A very nice unit.
  
 But there is more competition for the iDSD Pro now that it is competing with DACs at the $2,000 and below market - while the iDSD Micro was only taking on the DACs at $500 and under.
 The fun starts soon.


----------



## LoryWiv

bmoura said:


> I think the iDSD Pro will do well.  To me, it sounds a lot like the Pro iCAN. A very nice unit.
> 
> But there is more competition for the iDSD Pro now that it is competing with DACs at the $2,000 and below market - while the iDSD Micro was only taking on the DACs at $500 and under.
> The fun starts soon.


 
 With apologies that I have not yet reviewed the entire thread, will the iDSD pro offer true balanced topology for both DAC / Amp / headphone output?


----------



## technobear

lorywiv said:


> bmoura said:
> 
> 
> > I think the iDSD Pro will do well.  To me, it sounds a lot like the Pro iCAN. A very nice unit.
> ...




DAC - yes

Line Out - yes

Headphone out - unless anything has changed, that one's a 'no'


EDIT: having said that, if you have a high impedance can like the beyerdynamic T1, you could equip it with 3-pin XLRs and plug it into the line-outs


----------



## gr8soundz

technobear said:


> DAC - yes
> 
> Line Out - yes
> 
> ...


 
  
 Last I saw, iFi had added a balanced 3.5mm TRRS headphone out to the iDSD Pro.


----------



## technobear

gr8soundz said:


> technobear said:
> 
> 
> > DAC - yes
> ...




Well spotted. Took me a while to find it but here it is:



The above image taken from the Pro iCAN thread shows it more clearly than the image that was posted in this thread.


----------



## LoryWiv

technobear said:


> Well spotted. Took me a while to find it but here it is:
> 
> 
> 
> The above image taken from the Pro iCAN thread shows it more clearly than the image that was posted in this thread.


 
 Beautiful stack! Encouraged there will be a headphone balanced out from the iDSD Pro.  What will the principle advantages be of running the iDSD Pro into iCAN rather then just standalone? Is it just that the iCAN amp section is superior?


----------



## Maelob

I think you are correct the ICAN pro is most likely the superior headphone amp.  But I don't think the stand alone IDSD pro will be no slouch.


----------



## iFi audio

maelob said:


> I think you are correct the ICAN pro is most likely the superior headphone amp.  But I don't think the stand alone IDSD pro will be no slouch.


 
 That's the case exactly. Even though our upcoming Pro iDSD has a VERY decent headphone out, this device is a DAC above all else. Our Pro iCAN is a standalone amplifier, the pinnacle of what we currently can achieve for the mony. If one feels to have a setup without any compromise, two or even three Pro line products are the way to go. But if one is in need of a great d/a converter and will use headphones, yet at the same time wants to have a one box solution that covers all needs, Pro iDSD is for the taking.


----------



## LoryWiv

ifi audio said:


> That's the case exactly. Even though our upcoming Pro iDSD has a VERY decent headphone out, this device is a DAC above all else. Our Pro iCAN is a standalone amplifier, the pinnacle of what we currently can achieve for the mony. If one feels to have a setup without any compromise, two or even three Pro line products are the way to go. But if one is in need of a great d/a converter and will use headphones, yet at the same time wants to have a one box solution that covers all needs, Pro iDSD is for the taking.


 

 Will the iDSD Pro incorporate switchable SS & GE tube state as the iCAN Pro does? I recognize it may not offer as much refinement but that is a terrific functionality even if not implemented to the pinnacle of quaity as in iCAN Pro. Tube option and the already noted 3.5 mm balanced headphone out  = I am in line for the iDSD Pro the instant it becomes available!!!


----------



## iFi audio

lorywiv said:


> Will the iDSD Pro incorporate switchable SS & GE tube state as the iCAN Pro does? I recognize it may not offer as much refinement but that is a terrific functionality even if not implemented to the pinnacle of quaity as in iCAN Pro. Tube option and the already noted 3.5 mm balanced headphone out  = I am in line for the iDSD Pro the instant it becomes available!!!


 
 Well, there surely are tubes and transistors involved in Pro iDSD.


----------



## BarDash

Will the IDSD be a "jack of all trades"? Does it have an amp? Basically I'm wondering if it's overkill to match with my ICAN, or should I spend my money on a similarly priced or less expensive DAC that's just a DAC?


----------



## blance44

ifi audio said:


> Well, there surely are tubes and transistors involved in Pro iDAC.


 
 So just to clarify, there will be a pro iDAC, pro iCAN, and pro iDSD?


----------



## LoryWiv

ifi audio said:


> Well, there surely are tubes and transistors involved in Pro iDAC.


 

 Thank you. Is it still too soon to release the amp specifications for Pro iDSD?


----------



## iFi audio

blance44 said:


> So just to clarify, there will be a pro iDAC, pro iCAN, and pro iDSD?


 
 Oops, to write about Pro iDSD was the original idea. To clarify: not a Pro iDAC but a Pro iDSD we're talking about here.


----------



## iFi audio

lorywiv said:


> Thank you. Is it still too soon to release the amp specifications for Pro iDSD?


 
 Yes.


----------



## Seamaster

AMR is known for the missing the release dates. Sorry it is not a personal attack, just the fact. But I rather wait for a perfect product than a buggy one.


----------



## Seamaster

1. Is the Pro iDSD's DAC tubed?
 2. Can you dim the display?
 3. Are there tone controls?


----------



## iFi audio

seamaster said:


> 1. Is the Pro iDSD's DAC tubed?
> 2. Can you dim the display?
> 3. Are there tone controls?


 
 1. SS and Tubed. Switchable.
 2. No.
 3. No.


----------



## LoryWiv

ifi audio said:


> 1. SS and Tubed. Switchable.
> 2. No.
> 3. No.


 
 Beautiful, & thank you. Staying with the rule of 3's:
 1) Will there be balanced headphone out (XLR or similar)?
 2) Will iFi / iDSD Pro be at CanJam SoCal this April?
 3) Current estimate of release date for preorder / purchase?
  
 Thank you. I love my 1st gen. iDSD and am really excited for the Pro!


----------



## Seamaster

ifi audio said:


> 1. SS and Tubed. Switchable.
> 2. No.
> 3. No.


 

 Thank you, I really wish the light is dimmable, but not a deal breaker.


----------



## iFi audio

lorywiv said:


> Beautiful, & thank you. Staying with the rule of 3's:
> 1) Will there be balanced headphone out (XLR or similar)?
> 2) Will iFi / iDSD Pro be at CanJam SoCal this April?
> 3) Current estimate of release date for preorder / purchase?
> ...


 
 1. 6,3 mm i.e. unbalanced.
 2. We have no plans to go there as a manufacturer, though our dealer or another manufacturer might use the Pro iDSD at the show.
 3. Field auditions and launch are scheduled in January and March respectively *if* everything goes according to our plans.


----------



## BarDash

ifi audio said:


> 1. 6,3 mm i.e. unbalanced.
> 2. We have no plans to go there as a manufacturer, though our dealer or another manufacturer might use the Pro iDSD at the show.
> 3. Field auditions and launch are scheduled in January and March respectively *if* everything goes according to our plans.



Can't wait! Price?


----------



## technobear

ifi audio said:


> lorywiv said:
> 
> 
> > 1) Will there be balanced headphone out (XLR or similar)?
> ...




So what's with the 3.5mm sockets labelled 'SE' and 'BAL' in this photo (click to enlarge):


----------



## iFi audio

ifi audio said:


> 1. 6,3 mm i.e. unbalanced.
> 2. We have no plans to go there as a manufacturer, though our dealer or another manufacturer might use the Pro iDSD at the show.
> 3. Field auditions and launch are scheduled in January and March respectively *if* everything goes according to our plans.


 
 In addition to point one our iDSD Pro has 6.3mm SE Headphone out and 3.5mm SE and 3.5mm Balanced Headphone Out. The choice of balanced 3.5mm Jack was made due to the limited space available.
  
 The SE Headphone outputs produce up to 4V / 1,000mW@16Ohm. The Balanced Headphone output produces 8V / 4,000mW@16Ohm. The actual analogue stage in the iDSD Pro is fully passive, with a passive CLC analogue filter, followed by a version of the "Pro-Stage" circuit first experienced in the iCAN Pro as line/headphone driver, 
  
 The Pro Stage works as line driver (for professional audio > 8V into 200 Ohm are needed) and also drives the Headphone outputs directly, simply by making the line driver a little beefier than the 8V/200 Ohm needs. 
  
 In the iDSD Pro the number of output devices and the output power have been reduced compared to iCAN Pro to allow this design to fit into the iDSD Pro compact enclosure. 
 But Audio performance and features (e.g. Solid State, Tube & Tube+ Modes) as well as fundamental design, that is a fully discrete, high class A current, 60V Rail design match the Pro-Stage from the iCAN Pro.


----------



## LoryWiv

Thank you. This information is helpful, exciting and very welcomed.


----------



## Whitigir

Nice! So after all Pro-IDSD do has 3.5mm balanced TRRS . Is it the same as Sony and Hi-fi man style ? And also, should the participating price be around 1.5-2k ?


----------



## iFi audio

whitigir said:


> Nice! So after all Pro-IDSD do has 3.5mm balanced TRRS
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 The price info is off the table for now, we'll get to that matter once we can share any firm news.


----------



## etc6849

You might consider discount pricing for those that purchased 3 or more of your other products and are in the US?  This is very specific as I'm only thinking of myself here... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Quote:


ifi audio said:


> The price info is off the table for now, we'll get to that matter once we can share any firm news.


----------



## Whitigir

Yeah, I would go buy 3 I-purifier and enjoy that discount too . I am kidding, but I do think most of the time Manufacturers do have some discounts and incentives. Of course speaking from the consumers end, it is a good idea hehehe


----------



## iFi audio

etc6849 said:


>


 
  
 Yes, we'll keep that in mind


----------



## Rod Welst

seamaster said:


> Thank you, I really wish the light is dimmable, but not a deal breaker.


 
 Not to worry... This is what I use... LightDims  http://www.lightdims.com/


----------



## iFi audio

rod welst said:


> Not to worry... This is what I use... LightDims  http://www.lightdims.com/


 
  
 Brilliant, to give this a go with many products at home is something this iFi Team person will surely do


----------



## BarDash

Came across this ad today...


----------



## BarDash

Sorry crappy pic taken with my phone but shows the Ifi pro IDSd Dac clearly for 2000.00


----------



## BarDash

Here's a better one... 2k is steep!


----------



## gr8soundz

bardash said:


> Sorry crappy pic taken with my phone but shows the Ifi pro IDSd Dac clearly for 2000.00


 
  
 I have the 2017 Music Direct catalog but the iDSD Pro is not in it. The only unreleased iFi product shown is the iTube2.
  
 Where did you see the ad?
  
 iFi had already quoted the price at $2K several months ago.


----------



## BarDash

My bad I did not know the price was already quoted.
The ads on page 132 in the Jan 2017 issue of of Stereophile magazine. I checked Music Directs site just now and didn't see it.


----------



## Whitigir

2k is not bad if Pro IDSD is all that glory and fun ? The question is....could it beat other mid-tier desktop set up ? Says HA-1 or schiit stack ^_^. When it comes to desktop devices, people will not be afraid to stack it up at all. At this price, we are looking at high-end Summit gears


----------



## bluesaint

Bought a iDSD BL to play with while waiting. To me it's significantly better than the original as a standalone DAC. It's easily worth the extra Money, but do wonder if the pro will be leaps ahead of BL..


----------



## 227qed

How's the bass boost on the ican pro compare to the micro ican and ican se? +12 db at 10, 20, 40 Hz ***sounds*** awesome.


----------



## shockwaver

bluesaint said:


> Bought a iDSD BL to play with while waiting. To me it's significantly better than the original as a standalone DAC. It's easily worth the extra Money, but do wonder if the pro will be leaps ahead of BL..


 
 How about Pro BL? hehe


----------



## Khragon

At $2000 iDSD is competing with top tier DAC like Schiit yggy and Audio gd Master/NOS 7, not sure if Delta sigma DAC can deliver that multibit goodness. I enjoyed both the Yggy and Master 11 DAC quite a bit.


----------



## JWahl

Given that this thread is in the source component section, and a thread for the Pro iCan exists seperately, I've edited the title to reflect focus on the Pro iDSD.


----------



## technobear

khragon said:


> At $2000 iDSD is competing with top tier DAC like Schiit yggy and Audio gd Master/NOS 7, not sure if Delta sigma DAC can deliver that multibit goodness. I enjoyed both the Yggy and Master 11 DAC quite a bit.




Just as well then that the iDSD Pro is not a pure delta sigma DAC (Nor are any of the other DACs in the iFi lineup)

http://www.head-fi.org/t/711217/idsd-micro-black-label-tour-details-page-147-release-info-page-153/60#post_10404689

http://www.head-fi.org/t/711217/idsd-micro-black-label-tour-details-page-147-release-info-page-153/690#post_10617050

http://www.head-fi.org/t/711217/idsd-micro-black-label-tour-details-page-147-release-info-page-153/840#post_10641478

In fact, just go read all the articles/posts indexed here:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/711217/idsd-micro-black-label-tour-details-page-147-release-info-page-153#post_10383226


----------



## iFi audio

technobear said:


> Just as well then that the iDSD Pro is not a pure delta sigma DAC (Nor are any of the other DACs in the iFi lineup)
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/711217/idsd-micro-black-label-tour-details-page-147-release-info-page-153/60#post_10404689
> 
> ...


 
  
 Ah, you were quicker with these links!
  
 At iFi, we do things our way from engineering perspective. That approach oftentimes nets grand results. And this exactly we've done with Pro iDSD. It has many surprises, is packed with lots of goodies and in many ways is in fact different. Soon we'll release more informations about this deck, in our typical fashion. Technical insight is something we'll surely share with this community.


----------



## Trogdor

khragon said:


> At $2000 iDSD is competing with top tier DAC like Schiit yggy and Audio gd Master/NOS 7, not sure if Delta sigma DAC can deliver that multibit goodness. I enjoyed both the Yggy and Master 11 DAC quite a bit.




If you want _native_ DSD playback, then you need delta sigma.

Comparing DAC architectures like this is a recipe for disaster.


----------



## loplop

bluesaint said:


> Bought a iDSD BL to play with while waiting. To me it's significantly better than the original as a standalone DAC. It's easily worth the extra Money, but do wonder if the pro will be leaps ahead of BL..



 

I bought a Micro iDSD BL, as well, and I find myself using it quite a bit as a standalone DAC. I think the DAC implementation is truly excellent, whereas the amp section is good (aka not quite on the same level).

I just got an iCAN Pro, and running my iDSD BL into it sounds mighty fine. As you, I'm really looking forward to trying the iDAC Pro vs the iDSD BL and see what it brings to the table..



227qed said:


> How's the bass boost on the ican pro compare to the micro ican and ican se? +12 db at 10, 20, 40 Hz ***sounds*** awesome.



 

I don't have a ton of experience with my iCAN yet, and I haven't used the Micro iCAN, but I do have a Micro iDSD BL. Although Bass Boost on the iDSD BL is very good, the iCAN certainly gives you more options with the switch. And all of the choices seem well-implemented, with no extraneous bleeding into the mids. The BL's won't work as well across as wide of a range of 'phones and recordings, as it's only on/off. I think that's the iCAN's MO, to be honest--to be highly configurable to take any can you want to throw at it.

Still, the iDSD BL XBass+ is pretty nice, in it's own right.


----------



## 227qed

loplop said:


> bluesaint said:
> 
> 
> > Bought a iDSD BL to play with while waiting. To me it's significantly better than the original as a standalone DAC. It's easily worth the extra Money, but do wonder if the pro will be leaps ahead of BL..
> ...




Nice, thanks for sharing. A black label for dac and portable, and ican pro for home is my dream right now. I've been really pleased with my micro ican and am looking forward to stepping up this year. Really not that impressed my my schiit modi 2 uber dac. Can't tell much difference between my phone and it so hopefully a good dac like the idsd bl will really step up the quality of my chain.

But as a basshead, the xbass on the ican pro is very very intriguing. Hoping to get some th900s too for what should be endgame for a long time.


----------



## iFi audio

*Buying some vinyl for the micro iDSD BL (and its other siblings)*
  
  
 On a side note, for those of you who're into black stuff... We took the liberty to find ourselves some nice LPs in Greece, somewhere between exhibition days. There is ALWAYS a good time to get these. Why? There are many reasons. But the fact that we simply love the sound of a fine vinyl record is more than enough! And we compare all our digital equipment in R&D to our in-house vinyl setups. This is what we benchmark our digital reference gear to. As such, we do not expect iFi DACs to sound like other DACs! 
  
 So here's what we've found...  
  
  


> > The Dave Brubeck Trio Featuring Gerry Mulligan Blues Roots
> >
> >
> >
> > ...


----------



## iFi audio

'Nuff said!


----------



## iFi audio

Oops, double!


----------



## Whitigir

khragon said:


> At $2000 iDSD is competing with top tier DAC like Schiit yggy and Audio gd Master/NOS 7, not sure if Delta sigma DAC can deliver that multibit goodness. I enjoyed both the Yggy and Master 11 DAC quite a bit.




And the new Sony TA-ZH1ES


----------



## Esprit

Can the iDSD Pro convert from pcm to dsd internally (like Sony, Mytek, Teac and other DAC)?


----------



## bluesaint

esprit said:


> Can the iDSD Pro convert from pcm to dsd internally (like Sony, Mytek, Teac and other DAC)?




I actually hope they don't. No device level conversion will be nearly as good as a pc/Mac real-time conversion software like HQplayer.


----------



## technobear

esprit said:


> Can the iDSD Pro convert from pcm to dsd internally (like Sony, Mytek, Teac and other DAC)?




No.


----------



## Esprit

bluesaint said:


> I actually hope they don't. No device level conversion will be nearly as good as a pc/Mac real-time conversion software like HQplayer.


 
 In other DACs this is an option (you can use it or not..)
 I use Dirac which is limited to 192kHz PCM so I like the opportunity of upsampling, from PCM to DSD, inside the DAC.
 I've used HQPlayer from years but the advantage of Dirac is huge compared to the pleasure of using HQP


----------



## Esprit

technobear said:


> No.


 
 is your opinion?


----------



## technobear

esprit said:


> technobear said:
> 
> 
> > No.
> ...




What has opinion got to do with it?

You asked a simple question. You got a simple answer. It doesn't do it.


----------



## Esprit

Ok, you have the iDSD Pro or you are in iFi team


----------



## technobear

esprit said:


> Ok, you have the iDSD Pro or you are in iFi team




Neither.


----------



## iFi audio

technobear said:


> Neither.


 
  
 That's the proper gent of many words


----------



## Esprit

2014 - > 2017 -> ????


----------



## Esprit

*MQA*
 http://tidal.com/us/masters


----------



## aerosuffly

Yes. If AudioQuest can patch Dragon Fly firmware to enable MQA decoding and de-blurring, you can do it iFi!


----------



## iFi audio

aerosuffly said:


> Yes. If AudioQuest can patch Dragon Fly firmware to enable MQA decoding and de-blurring, you can do it iFi!


 
  
 We have LOTS on our plates already, but who knows? We always listen to what folks here have to say and what are their needs.


----------



## Khragon

I could careless about MQA.


----------



## Maelob

No need for MQA hardware if Tidal can decoded via software- what was the fuzz about mqa enabled DACs


----------



## Verhulk

Dear @iFi audio, it would be really great if there would arrive an MQA update. If I understand the case right, the possiblities with the conversion in the DAC are much bigger then the limited software in Tidal.


----------



## BarDash

khragon said:


> I could careless about MQA.



Ditto.


----------



## bmoura

bardash said:


> Ditto.


 
 Having heard the MQA demo by Meridian, same here.  It's a step backwards in sound quality compared to playing 24/96 FLAC and DSD files.


----------



## BarDash

bmoura said:


> Having heard the MQA demo by Meridian, same here.  It's a step backwards in sound quality compared to playing 24/96 FLAC and DSD files.




Here's an interesting article with some factual info. (Although personally I don't think it's dead yet) https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/163302855-is-mqa-doa


----------



## aerosuffly

maelob said:


> No need for MQA hardware if Tidal can decoded via software- what was the fuzz about mqa enabled DACs



My understanding is that Tidal software decoding only "unfold" MQA stream (24bit/48kHz) to higher sampling rate (the current Tidal decoding seem to limit the maximum unfolded sampling rate at 96kHz). MQA promise the correction for timing and quantisation errors in the ADC when the song was recorded, and they claimed that this correction can only be done in the DAC because it DAC dependent.



bmoura said:


> Having heard the MQA demo by Meridian, same here.  It's a step backwards in sound quality compared to playing 24/96 FLAC and DSD files.



Did the demo compare the same system with MQA on and off? If you are comparing, for example, Meridian Explorer 2 with Micro iDSD, of course the iDSD will sound better. Our familiarity with the system is also important - a great system that we do not like might sound not as good as our home system. I am not trying to defend MQA here, but I think it is a little early to make a judgment on any tech when you can only compare apple to orange for most of the time.


----------



## bmoura

bardash said:


> Here's an interesting article with some factual info. (Although personally I don't think it's dead yet) https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/163302855-is-mqa-doa


 
  
 And here's another from Paul McGowan, CEO at PS Audio
 http://www.psaudio.com/forum/directstream-all-about-it/mqa-controversy/#p55837


>





> > "So far MQA decoding has only been worse and that has not changed. We suspect (as do they) that it’s because the tricks they’re using with filters to try and make the sound better (closer to the original source material in their parlance) screws with our own in the DAC. They then suggest they need to tune their decoder to our filters for best results.
> >
> > If that’s all true then we’re out. As you’ve seen with Torreys, Ted and the engineers continue to improve the state of the art with digital filters on a regular basis – and one of the whole reasons we went to an FPGA based DAC in the first place was the freedom to improve the product’s performance over time. If we were restricted in what we could to future developments, held back because everything in the USB chain had to be “fixed” by the MQA engineers first… that would be nuts. They’ve never said that has to be so and I am merely speculating as we wait for an answer.
> >
> > I too wish they’d just release this as software so the compressed file could be decoded and leave the DAC design to us."


----------



## aerosuffly

^ That I completely agree. Based on my one day experience with Tidal Master streaming, I found that the unfolded MQA stream playing through the Retro 50 sound far less superior than the Hi-Res FLAC counterpart. But now you are running into a question of whether the two formats come from the same master ...


----------



## Verhulk

Correct, but if you don't own the high res file, MQA with Tidal is a huge step forward. So I would like to play those high res MQA files with my IFI. My dragonfly red will be updated in the near future


----------



## sdolezalek

Unfortunately, I think MQA is boxing all of us into a corner.  If you subscribe to Tidal, the benefits of full MQA unfolding and decoding over the normal 16/44 bitstream are probably a sonic upgrade.  On the other hand if you are using software like HQPlayer and its superlative filters to upsample all of your content to DSD256 or DSD512 to take maximum advantage of the chips in the iDSD Pro you'll likely get even better sound from that (as long as you aren't starting with MQA-encoded material).  
  
 But it means that for maximum benefit you'll need a DAC with the MQA decoding AND software that upsamples everything but MQA to DSD256/512.  Today that combination doesn't exist.


----------



## Esprit

And iF does not support MQA


----------



## iFi audio

Boys and girls, just a quick reminder. We'll attend to UK's world famous  Sound & Vision - Bristol Show. As per usual, we'll show a new thing or two there, so if you're around, please come and visit us! 
  
  
*The date: 24th - 26th of February*
*The place: Marriott City Centre Hotel, Lower Castle Street, Bristol, BS1 3AD
 The brand: iFi Audio / suite 11*
  
  
  

  
  
  
 For further info, please take a look here:
  
 http://www.bristolshow.co.uk
  
  
  
 See you on the spot!


----------



## bluesaint

So are we any closer to iDSD PRO being released?  Is ETA still end of Q1?  Or is it now Q2?
  
 Quote:


ifi audio said:


> Boys and girls, just a quick reminder. We'll attend to UK's world famous  Sound & Vision - Bristol Show. As per usual, we'll show a new thing or two there, so if you're around, please come and visit us!
> 
> 
> *The date: 24th - 26th of February*
> ...


----------



## synapse09

bluesaint said:


>


 
 This link was posted in the ifi micro idsd thread
  
 http://www.bristolshow.co.uk/news_detail.lasso?newsid=8234#.WHUqOnWi68g
  
 I'm guessing the iOne is what the Pro iDSD is? Home DAC...


----------



## Esprit




----------



## Vartan

Quad Core Dual Mono DAC*?*



_*?*_
  
*Digital Processor-777*
 There is not one, but 2 distinct chipsets that define their generation; one latest generation *High-Definition 32-Bit DAC* to produce the best sound from _HD_ recordings and one *Classic Multibit 16-Bit DAC* to produce the best sound from CD. These two "non-identical twins" deliver the best of both worlds in a way that is simply unmatched.


----------



## JWahl

vartan said:


> Quad Core Dual Mono DAC*?*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Unless they've made a major change, I doubt the iDSD Pro is mirroring the DP-777 in that regard.  The "Quad Core Dual Mono" is just a fancy way of saying they are using 4 DAC chips, where each chip has a mono output in a 4 channel, balanced out configuration. (each chip handling half a phase of left and right channel).


----------



## Esprit

Hey iFi, hurry up please... or we can not buy it for too many taxes.


----------



## etc6849

I still would like to buy the idsd pro to go with my pro ican. Is a q1 or q2 release planned?



ifi audio said:


> Boys and girls, just a quick reminder. We'll attend to UK's world famous [COLOR=222222] Sound & Vision - Bristol Show. As per usual, we'll show a new thing or two there, so if you're around, please come and visit us! [/COLOR]
> 
> 
> [COLOR=3399FF]*The date: 24th - 26th of February*[/COLOR]
> ...


----------



## EVOLVIST

Are those BNC inputs on the back of the iDSD Pro that I see?


----------



## Esprit

External word clock?


----------



## tunes

Has anyone found a light weight rechargeable battery option for the IFi micro iCan SE TO MAKE IT TRANSPORTABLE? I travel and really think this amp has amazing synergy wth my QP1R DAP when paired with the HIFIMAN HE1000. In fact, it sounds as good as my home system using much more expensive DAC and amps. Has anyone else discovered this synergy??


----------



## iFi audio

esprit said:


> External word clock?


 
  
 We are trying to have one input that covers Atomic/GPS/10MHz clock, as well as DARS (the AES standard), Wordclock (not really a standard) and Superclock (Avid / Pro-Tools), with both in & out. This is a long-term project so future-proofing for the Pro iDSD.


----------



## Fastnbulbous

Does this mean the Pro iDSD is still in development and no release date?


----------



## Vartan

Maybe in March


----------



## bluesaint

I just hope it won't have the QA/reliability issues some folks are seeing with the iCAN PRO


----------



## Esprit

fastnbulbous said:


> Does this mean the Pro iDSD is still in development and no release date?


 

 Good question...


----------



## iFi audio

esprit said:


> Good question...


 
  
 And to provide you with the most suitable and accurate answer, for now we can only say that we'll release our Pro iDSD when the time is right, not even one day earlier or later. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Several additional thoughts, though. This product is very complex, therefore to just release it is not that simple as it has to be extensively checked before in every way possible. Of course we aren't too far off, we've showed the fully operational device on several occasions. Yet testing of a product of this sort is crucial, we don't want to rush it. And that's why for now we simply can't give any details whether it'll be February, March or any other month.
  
 We're getting there, please trust us. If only we could spill 'em beans, we would, honestly. This community is very important for us, hence as soon as there's something we can share, Head-fi.org is our place number one to do so!


----------



## bjas406

ifi audio said:


> And to provide you with the most suitable and accurate answer, for now we can only say that we'll release our Pro iDSD when the time is right, not even one day earlier or later. :wink_face:
> 
> Several additional thoughts, though. This product is very complex, therefore to just release it is not that simple as it has to be extensively checked before in every way possible. Of course we aren't too far off, we've showed the fully operational device on several occasions. Yet testing of a product of this sort is crucial, we don't want to rush it. And that's why for now we simply can't give any details whether it'll be February, March or any other month.
> 
> We're getting there, please trust us. If only we could spill 'em beans, we would, honestly. This community is very important for us, hence as soon as there's something we can share, Head-fi.org is our place number one to do so!




Sounds as though it'll probably be end of year, which is fine with me given there's so much thought being put into the product. I appreciate the artisanship.


----------



## Fastnbulbous

Cool, I'm not complaining, just figuring out logistics on when I want to sell a couple older DACs. So I'm getting a Grace m9xx to upgrade my work rig, but will use it at home with the iCAN until the DSD is out and I decide whether or not to go with that.


----------



## sdolezalek

I can't help but wonder whether the care you are putting into an otherwise "hardware complete" product argues strongly for more separation of DAC hardware from user-customizable D-to-A software.  Ultimately the rest of the signal chain and our choice of speakers will interact with whatever happens in the DAC.  For example, The degree to which our pre-amp, amp and speakers can accomodate content significantly above 20kHz may influence which filters and filter slopes work best in our equipment.  
  
 It is for this reason that I have always appreciated the effort iFi have made to accomodate the highest PCM and DSD rates, allowing us, as users, to work with software products like HQ Player to choose the conversion rates and filters that sound best in our own systems.  
  
 Of course, that makes me curious about what systems and how broad a range of systems you test the iPro products with and how you choose which of those systems to optimize the sound of your product for.  
  
 As a counter example, in the digital photography world, as both cameras and processing software have continued to improve, it is great to see how much more the latest version of Photoshop can pull out of 10 year old files.  At the same time, what it can do with files from the latest in digital hardware is stunning.  I expect we see the same happen in digital audio.


----------



## loplop

Ifi isn't running FPGA or custom upsampling, that I'm aware of, @sdolezalek. They have custom code for the XMOS usb input, and of course controller logic. But nothing working on the depth/rate of the bits. That would not be ifi's way* . What are you referring to, then? 

*TrueNative, and all that. 

Personally, I hope they are delaying (again) to get their QC/Build Quality right. I'd wait for that.


----------



## Franatic

I've been following this thread and idsd pro development since 1/2015........over 2 years. We had hoped to see a release in mid-2015 at that time. 2 years later and no release in sight.
  
 I love ifi products but my patience is up with the pro. I am upgrading my W4S DAC2 DSDse with the new ESS Sabre 9038 chip and will be out of the DAC market for a few years. Maybe down the line the pro will be an option but I am out for now. Don't know what really is going on behind the curtain, but feel there have been at least a couple major redesigns since the project started. New DACs are surely raising the target for ifi. The new generation DACs with the 9038 chips will definitely raise the bar further.
  
 Good luck ifi. I am sure the pro will be worth waiting for.............................for those that can wait.


----------



## EVOLVIST

franatic said:


> I've been following this thread and idsd pro development since 1/2015........over 2 years. We had hoped to see a release in mid-2015 at that time. 2 years later and no release in sight.
> 
> I love ifi products but my patience is up with the pro. I am upgrading my W4S DAC2 DSDse with the new ESS Sabre 9038 chip and will be out of the DAC market for a few years. Maybe down the line the pro will be an option but I am out for now. Don't know what really is going on behind the curtain, but feel there have been at least a couple major redesigns since the project started. New DACs are surely raising the target for ifi. The new generation DACs with the 9038 chips will definitely raise the bar further.
> 
> Good luck ifi. I am sure the pro will be worth waiting for.............................for those that can wait.




I ended up buying a Chord DAVE.

I'm still a big fan of iFi, though. That will never end. I recommend their products in that bracket all of the time on various forums and to friends. That will never end. 

As far as the iDSD Pro, though, I think the Mytek Brooklyn and the Schitt Yggy have taken a big chunk in that market, which sucks, really, because I fear that no matter how good the iDSD Pro is, the other options on the market are already out there... Unless, of course, iFi is merely spacing their release from the competition with some announcements that's going to blow everyone away.


----------



## iFi audio

evolvist said:


> I ended up buying a Chord DAVE.
> 
> I'm still a big fan of iFi, though. That will never end. I recommend their products in that bracket all of the time on various forums and to friends. That will never end.
> 
> As far as the iDSD Pro, though, I think the Mytek Brooklyn and the Schitt Yggy have taken a big chunk in that market, which sucks, really, because I fear that no matter how good the iDSD Pro is, the other options on the market are already out there... Unless, of course, iFi is merely spacing their release from the competition with some announcements that's going to blow everyone away.


 
  
 We have our ways of doing things and at the same time we think that there's enough room on the market for every manufacturer with great products available. And yes, we sincerely believe that every individual able to wait for our Pro iDSD will be blown away...


----------



## bluesaint

ifi audio said:


> We have our ways of doing things and at the same time we think that there's enough room on the market for every manufacturer with great products available. And yes, we sincerely believe that every individual able to wait for our Pro iDSD will be blown away...


 
 I know you can't talk about internal details, but can you confirm if the headphone connections will be the same as your prototype?  Meaning it'll have a 3.5mm TRRS balanced output?


----------



## Esprit

ifi audio said:


> And to provide you with the most suitable and accurate answer, for now we can only say that we'll release our Pro iDSD when the time is right, not even one day earlier or later.


 
 You had Brexit, US Trump, now we'll have France and Italy out of Europe: when your product will be released I'll live on Mars...


----------



## NuClear235

A-Will be symetric XLR output at back side volume controlled ? (To be possible connect it directly to power amp)
  
 B-Is there analog asymetric RCA input for using PRO as headphone amp only ? (as is on iDSD Micro 3,5mm Jack)
  
 C-Could You writte more about headphone amp sound signature ? I love You TPA6120 sound... Will be similar?
  
 Thank You


----------



## iFi audio

bluesaint said:


> I know you can't talk about internal details, but can you confirm if the headphone connections will be the same as your prototype?  Meaning it'll have a 3.5mm TRRS balanced output?


 
  
 Yes.
  
   
 Quote:


nuclear235 said:


> A-Will be symetric XLR output at back side volume controlled ? (To be possible connect it directly to power amp)


 
  
 The line-out (XLR & RCA) can bet set to fixed or variable level mode. In the former, the volume control is completely bypassed, in the latter it is active. 
  
 Two different reference signal levels will be available on the line outputs; 
 "HiFi Standard" with 0dBFS levels of 2V unbalanced and 4V balanced, fixed or variable
 "Pro Standard" with 0dBFS levels of +24dBU (~ 12V) balanced, fixed or variable
  
  


nuclear235 said:


> B-Is there analog asymetric RCA input for using PRO as headphone amp only ? (as is on iDSD Micro 3,5mm Jack)


 
  
 No.
  
  


nuclear235 said:


> C-Could You writte more about headphone amp sound signature ? I love You TPA6120 sound... Will be similar?


 
  
 We leave the talk about the sound signature and quality of our products to others, instead of hyping things ourselves. You can read the comments on the general sound signature of the Pro series (all share similar circuitry) in the iCAN Pro threads. 
  
 The analogue stage (which IS the sole headphone output stage as well) is based on the same circuits and parts as the iCAN Pro, however with fewer output transistors, reduced class A current and reduced output levels in comparison to our iCAN Pro. 
  
 As a headphone DAC/an amplifier, our iDSD Pro will sound very similar (yet with improved sound quality on the DAC side) as the iCAN Pro & iDAC 2 micro combination, however is less able to drive "extreme" headphones, be it extremely senstive iEM's or very hard to drive planars etc.
  
 The headphone amplifier will have 3 levels of gain with 0dBFS output levels of 1V/0.5V; 4V/2V & 12V/6V (balanced/unbalanced).
  
 As to the project state, we have essentially completed the electronic design, the major work and challenges are in the software area which is an order of magnitude or two more complex and demanding than any previous iFi product. It takes time.


----------



## Fastnbulbous

ifi audio said:


> As a headphone DAC/an amplifier, our iDSD Pro will sound very similar (yet with improved sound quality on the DAC side) as the iCAN Pro & iDAC 2 micro combination, however is less able to drive "extreme" headphones, be it extremely senstive iEM's or very hard to drive planars etc.
> 
> The headphone amplifier will have 3 levels of gain with 0dBFS output levels of 1V/0.5V; 4V/2V & 12V/6V (balanced/unbalanced).
> 
> As to the project state, we have essentially completed the electronic design, the major work and challenges are in the software area which is an order of magnitude or two more complex and demanding than any previous iFi product. It takes time.


 
  
 As someone with the iCAN Pro, it seems a little redundant that it also has an amp. While I would be curious to sample a trial MQS stream from Tidal, I realistically will not ever feel the need to upgrade my 10,000+ FLAC albums ripped from CDs and purchased on Bandcamp. So it's too bad a more basic iDAC Pro couldn't have come out first, as I do like the idea of getting one of those racks and the Energizer. BTW, one of the videos said Energizer was due to come out January.


----------



## Khragon

Regardless of headphones amp or not, there will need to be an output stage, which if I understood correctly, is used as headphones amp section as well, maybe with small addition.


----------



## LoryWiv

I am very pleased it will offer both balanced DAC and HP output, true to it's niche as successor to the iDSD and Black Label.


----------



## Trogdor

fastnbulbous said:


> As someone with the iCAN Pro, it seems a little redundant that it also has an amp. While I would be curious to sample a trial MQS stream from Tidal, I realistically will not ever feel the need to upgrade my 10,000+ FLAC albums ripped from CDs and purchased on Bandcamp. So it's too bad a more basic iDAC Pro couldn't have come out first, as I do like the idea of getting one of those racks and the Energizer. BTW, one of the videos said Energizer was due to come out January.




Why do you think by software they mean MQA?


----------



## Fastnbulbous

Do you really think this bells-and-whistles product would not support MQA among other things?


----------



## NuClear235

ifi audio said:


> We leave the talk about the sound signature and quality of our products to others, instead of hyping things ourselves. You can read the comments on the general sound signature of the Pro series (all share similar circuitry) in the iCAN Pro threads.
> 
> The analogue stage (which IS the sole headphone output stage as well) is based on the same circuits and parts as the iCAN Pro, however with fewer output transistors, reduced class A current and reduced output levels in comparison to our iCAN Pro.
> 
> ...




Thank You for answers. Now I can imagine more about this product.

Is sad, that there isnt analog input too. With it will be easy applicable iDSD Pro as preamplifer to power amp.
(I have power amp with balanced inputs.)

What type of headphone amp sound similar to iCAN Pro do You mean? iCAN Pro can be Tube, FET ...

I have now iDSD Micro and I want upgrade to higher lever. I am using Sennheiser HD800 headphones.
I really dont know, what now...
-iDSD Micro BL
-iDSD BL+iCAN SE 
-Or directly to iDSD Pro?

(Not iDSD Pro+iCAN Pro it is too much money)

I dont need portable rig.


----------



## bluesaint

As it apparently will share the same analogue stage as icanPro, but less amplification power, it should sound like a much better idsdBL is my imagination



nuclear235 said:


> Thank You for answers. Now I can imagine more about this product.
> 
> Is sad, that there isnt analog input too. With it will be easy applicable iDSD Pro as preamplifer to power amp.
> (I have power amp with balanced inputs.)
> ...


----------



## Trogdor

fastnbulbous said:


> Do you really think this bells-and-whistles product would not support MQA among other things?




I think it would be a nice to have. That's about it. I personally couldn't care less but YMMV.


----------



## bluesaint

trogdor said:


> I think it would be a nice to have. That's about it. I personally couldn't care less but YMMV.


 
 This was IFI's official stance when MQA was brought to light in this thread:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/702376/ifi-audio-pro-idsd-discussion-thread/960#post_12231882


----------



## Trogdor

bluesaint said:


> This was IFI's official stance when MQA was brought to light in this thread:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/702376/ifi-audio-pro-idsd-discussion-thread/960#post_12231882




Exactly.


----------



## EVOLVIST

bluesaint said:


> This was IFI's official stance when MQA was brought to light in this thread:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/702376/ifi-audio-pro-idsd-discussion-thread/960#post_12231882




But that was over a year ago now. A lot can change in a year. Audio years are like dog year. 

It will be interesting to find out what iFi REALLY has in store for the iDSD Pro after such a long wait.


----------



## Fastnbulbous

I'm all for them not supporting MQA. Not sure what surprises there will be, but hopefully something that would make me somehow feel okay paying $2K for a DAC.


----------



## iFi audio

fastnbulbous said:


> As someone with the iCAN Pro, it seems a little redundant that it also has an amp. While I would be curious to sample a trial MQS stream from Tidal, I realistically will not ever feel the need to upgrade my 10,000+ FLAC albums ripped from CDs and purchased on Bandcamp. So it's too bad a more basic iDAC Pro couldn't have come out first, as I do like the idea of getting one of those racks and the Energizer. BTW, one of the videos said Energizer was due to come out January.


 
  
 Actually, there is not a lot of difference between a Pro-Audio line driver (which must support 200 ohm loads at 8 - 12V output) and a headphone driver which must support 120 ohm loads at 8 - 12V.
  
 So what has been done with the iDSD is to fit headphone jacks that are driven alternately by this line driver instead of the line out and make it perhaps a little beefier than strictly necessary.
  
 For serious TOTL headphones you do want to add the iCAN Pro (and no, it's not "double-amping") and relieve the DAC from the need to drive headphones and pass the signal to a dedicated amp with much more class A operation range and better ability to drive lower loads, more complete connection options and so on.
  
 On the other hand if you have some reasonably decent headphones (but not "endgame" as pure headphone system) that you use occasionally or even frequently, but not exclusively, the headphone connection on the iDSD Pro gives you a really good headphone output without the need to add a dedicated headphone amplifier.


----------



## bidn

evolvist said:


> franatic said:
> 
> 
> > I've been following this thread and idsd pro development since 1/2015........over 2 years. We had hoped to see a release in mid-2015 at that time. 2 years later and no release in sight.
> ...



 



Don't worry ifi,
there are people like me who will wait for the iFi iDSD Pro.
Affording the Dave is no issue for me, but I will not because of its form factor (cannot be stacked, and would take more space than ifi Pro on my desk), besides I hate so much these lights on Chord products that I even never bought a Mojo.

Keep up your great work,
Cheers,
Bid


----------



## iFi audio

Yay, our latest nano iDSD LE got to the very first spot on Kakaku.com site!


----------



## iFi audio

bidn said:


> evolvist said:
> 
> 
> > franatic said:
> ...


 
  
 Cheers to that! Thank you for understanding!


----------



## EVOLVIST

ifi audio said:


> Cheers to that! Thank you for understanding!




Damn! iFi schooled us. But hey, like I said, I still support iFi; it's just not my main DAC anymore, and that doesn't mean I won't buy the iDSD Pro. 

By the way, the Chord stuff is very stackable, and to not buy the sound quality of the DAVE because of lights that you can't even see unless you hover right over it is kind of silly.


----------



## gr8soundz

After the most recent delays, I'm starting to think iFi might go full multi-bit with the Pro.


----------



## Fastnbulbous

I was considering going to Axpona in April, but was disappointed not to see iFi on the exhibitor list!


----------



## Emerpus

The full Pro stack is available for audition at Can Jam SG


----------



## Khragon

Is that enough clearance for the iCan Pro to vent? Could it over heat?


----------



## LoryWiv

emerpus said:


> The full Pro stack is available for audition at Can Jam SG


 
 Hoping it will be at next month's Can Jam SoCal as well? Any news in the iDSD Pro release date?


----------



## Emerpus

khragon said:


> Is that enough clearance for the iCan Pro to vent? Could it over heat?




Shd be sufficient. Cos my iCan Pro is stacked on top of my Gumby and my Liquid Carbon is right on top of the ICan Pro. Works fine.


----------



## Emerpus

lorywiv said:


> Hoping it will be at next ionth's Can Jam SoCal as well? Any news in the iDSD Pro release date?




Not sure about that. The booth here in Can Jam SG was manned by the local distro. They have no idea of the release date too.


----------



## Fastnbulbous

So did anyone audition the stack? Did it include the MrSpeakers Ether ES like they've done before?


----------



## RAFA

emerpus said:


> The full Pro stack is available for audition at Can Jam SG




Is there any more news on the energizer unit. Looks cool


----------



## Whitigir

So when will pro DAC get a date ?


----------



## bidn

evolvist said:


> ifi audio said:
> 
> 
> > Cheers to that! Thank you for understanding!
> ...


 
 Dear Evolvist,
  
 I eventually couldn't resit buying a Mojo 2 weeks ago...
  
 Thank you for your reply re. Dave (I think we can speak of it here comparatively to the iDSD Pro as they will be competing products)
 about stackability, but I don't understand,
 could you please explain me more about what I see on the photographs :
 - the round and inclined front display which protrudes above the top surface of the Dave
 - the tube on on the right which protrudes also (and by quite some height) ?
  





  
  
  
 Would it be possible to stack the iCan Pro, with its flat bottom surface, on top of the Dave?


----------



## EVOLVIST

bidn said:


> Dear Evolvist,
> 
> I eventually couldn't resit buying a Mojo 2 weeks ago...
> 
> ...




Well, no, I was just saying that the Chord stuff stacks with Chord stuff and the iFi stuff stacks with iFi. You're not going to stack them both without a rack unit of your choice. 

That said, iFi makes a very attractive and inexpensive rack for staking the Pro series. I think the Chord Coral stack is attractive, too, but very expensive, which is why I don't own their cradles. Haha! 

I know you didn't ask me, but between the Mojo and the iDSD Pro, I would have waited for the iDSD Pro. It's just that I don't think much of the mobile Chord DACs, while I can only imagine the huge step from the iDSD micro to the Pro.

But that's just me. I could be wrong.


----------



## bidn

thank you for your precise clarifications,
 and all other information, Evolvist, I find it very useful.
  
 Re. the Mojo, I just bought it because of its portability to increase the SQ when listening to music at work with my smartphone.
 I still intend to buy the iDSD Pro (or maybe also the Dave if I find a way stacking)


----------



## bluesaint

If I find a good deal on holo spring lvl3 I'll get that if the pro doesn't come out soon. Seems most folks like the r2r for dsd512


----------



## Fastnbulbous

evolvist said:


> That said, iFi makes a very attractive and inexpensive rack for staking the Pro series. I think the Chord Coral stack is attractive, too, but very expensive, which is why I don't own their cradles. Haha!
> 
> I know you didn't ask me, but between the Mojo and the iDSD Pro, I would have waited for the iDSD Pro. It's just that I don't think much of the mobile Chord DACs, while I can only imagine the huge step from the iDSD micro to the Pro.
> 
> But that's just me. I could be wrong.


 
  
 I only see the iRack for the micro and nano series on the site. Did they release pricing info elsewhere?


----------



## EVOLVIST

fastnbulbous said:


> I only see the iRack for the micro and nano series on the site. Did they release pricing info elsewhere?




Not that I know of. Perhaps I'm assuming too much, but the photos from shows I've seen all have the Pro series in a rack that looks like a larger iRack. *shrug*


----------



## Fastnbulbous

Sure, I saw it too, and I want it! When you said it was inexpensive I thought you maybe knew something we didn't. I hope it'll be inexpensive, but since the iRack is $159, I'm guessing it'll be $250 or more, which I do not consider inexpensive, considering I got a full-size Pangea rack for under $100.


----------



## EVOLVIST

fastnbulbous said:


> Sure, I saw it too, and I want it! When you said it was inexpensive I thought you maybe knew something we didn't. I hope it'll be inexpensive, but since the iRack is $159, I'm guessing it'll be $250 or more, which I do not consider inexpensive, considering I got a full-size Pangea rack for under $100.




Right, but the stand for the DAVE is $2500. So, in comparison, I would bet the Pro iRack is pretty "inexpensive."


----------



## Trogdor

The Pro's series iRack will be available (I don't think the iFi folks will shoot my head off for stating that). I don't know when or how much. My *guess* is when the Pro iDSD comes out. Hopefully soon... PLEASE!


----------



## iFi audio

trogdor said:


> The Pro's series iRack will be available (I don't think the iFi folks will shoot my head off for stating that). I don't know when or how much. My *guess* is when the Pro iDSD comes out. Hopefully soon... PLEASE!


 
  
 Things will happen, we assure you 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
  


whitigir said:


> So when will pro DAC get a date ?


 
  
 When we're in 100% ready to share that info, we'll surely post it on Head-fi.org.


----------



## HIltonHeadGuy

Not the biggest fan of negative just to be negative posts - or whining....  However after hours and hours of reading about iFi, I recently purchased both the Micro iDSD BL and the Pro iCan.  Simplest feedback is that I really like them both.  Quick mention that even after an email to iFi Support to confirm settings - my existing Audeze Deckard Amp/DAC passes a preferred sound to the Pro iCan - speaking purely subjective.  Love the power and flow from the Pro iCan to some of my best cans - but cannot wrap my head around my peers patience for iFi and the cryptic - FOREVER delays and drama for the Pro DAC - as in its 'REAL and TRUE' release date and finalized specs.  I thought that seeing it listed in Music Direct's Catalog meant that I wasn't taking a big gamble on the DAC wait - WRONG.  The Micro iDSD BL looks 'not good' in my desktop setup with the Pro iCan but I may keep it as my portable stacked with a decommissioned 6s and CCK Kit.  Admittedly I am going to spend more to return the Pro iCan and replace it with something that meets or exceeds in spec and power.  But it is what it is - and I will end this ridiculous game of the undefined wait for the undefined iFi release date, official price, potential misstep by not getting one of the first run - etc. etc. etc.  I'm exhausted by trying to find an alternative DAC for my Pro iCan and fearing that iFi may actually release something that causes me buyer's remorse that I didn't match their DAC to their Amp.  Soooooo - the Pro iCan is going back and even though I'm looking at spending more - I can retire the process of following links to posts and secret handshakes trying to get a adult-style update from iFi.  Depending on the official price for the iFi Pro DAC, one may find themselves spending the combined investment of the newest McIntosh (150 w/ higher capability res) or other premium setups that won't make you beg for real info.  Plus since the Rack System seems to be another iFi mystery - I may eliminate the annoying detail that my Pro iCan is too light; and I don't like using one hand to hold and one to plug/unplug or keeping it far from the edge of my desk.  Wheeeeh - sorry for b-session - as I face the fact its time to box back up the little Amp I wanted to love.... I don't care about whatever true tech availability such as MQA or Octo-DSD (bad humor) that iFi is waiting for - selling me the Pro iCan with misleading availability on the Pro DAC is a real let down.


----------



## technobear

hiltonheadguy said:


> Not the biggest fan of negative just to be negative posts - or whining....  However after hours and hours of reading about iFi, I recently purchased both the Micro iDSD BL and the Pro iCan.  Simplest feedback is that I really like them both.  Quick mention that even after an email to iFi Support to confirm settings - my existing Audeze Deckard Amp/DAC passes a preferred sound to the Pro iCan - speaking purely subjective..




Burn-in takes a minimum of 200 hours and with this level of kit I would say 300 hours (after my experience of a brand new iCAN SE compared to a well-used iCAN.

It doesn't matter if you do or don't believe in burn-in. It happens anyway.


----------



## bluesaint

technobear said:


> Burn-in takes a minimum of 200 hours and with this level of kit I would say 300 hours (after my experience of a brand new iCAN SE compared to a well-used iCAN.
> 
> It doesn't matter if you do or don't believe in burn-in. It happens anyway.




And that's per circuit. Ie 300hrs for SS, 300 for tube


----------



## Trogdor

hiltonheadguy said:


> Soooooo - the Pro iCan is going back and even though I'm looking at spending more - I can retire the process of following links to posts and secret handshakes trying to get a adult-style update from iFi.




I think that is an extremely unfair comment to make (and I feel it is more out of frustration than any kind of rational thinking).

The fact is iFi has been pretty forthcoming about _all of their releases._

The update as of today is: Though they have a working/close to production demo, the Pro iDSD is not ready for wide spread release. It is simple as that.

Whether you have the patience to "wait it out" is entirely up to you. If you can't, don't! It's not like they took preorders for it and are holding your money.

Personal note: I've seen in person the Pro iDSD demo. The product is not vaporware or just some spec sheet sitting on someone's desk at iFi. It is very real and actively being worked on.

Patience is, as they say, a virtue.


----------



## Maelob

Totally agree- I understand that part of the updates is to get us excited about the new product but to be fair with them, they don't have to update anybody. Nobody have given them any money. Have you heard of LH Labs Indiegogo campaigns, where they collected over a million dollars over 3 years ago and people are still waiting for their stuff.


----------



## EVOLVIST

trogdor said:


> Patience is as they say, a virtue.




Patience, is, as they, a virtue that takes too long to cultivate.


----------



## Whitigir

trogdor said:


> I think that is an extremely unfair comment to make (and I feel it is more out of frustration than any kind of rational thinking).
> 
> The fact is iFi has been pretty forthcoming about _all of their releases._
> 
> ...




Honestly, the news and the info about pro DSD was out for a while...since I did not need any DAC, until now that I do...and it is still yet to be released. Matter of fact, I liked Idsd And I would consider Pro DSD , but no solid news yet, so I bought another DAC from China which has 2x Es9038Pro. In the mean time, I will still wait on and have to see what the ProDsd can be. This is because I am on a quest for an end game DAC to go with my 009


----------



## Trogdor

evolvist said:


> Patience, is, as they, a virtue that takes too long to cultivate.




For some!


----------



## bidn

whitigir said:


> trogdor said:
> 
> 
> > I think that is an extremely unfair comment to make (and I feel it is more out of frustration than any kind of rational thinking).
> ...


 
 May I know exactly which one you did buy and how you feel about it?


----------



## m-i-c-k-e-y

Maybe an LKS MH-DA004 

So how is it?


----------



## Whitigir

bidn said:


> May I know exactly which one you did buy and how you feel about it?




It has not come in yet as I freshly placed order on the weekend. It was LKS-MH DA004....using dual ES9038Pro with discrete class A output and multiple power regulators and dual transformers. Judging from hardware specs on paper, it look good and priced good. I blindly bought it without hearing it performances


----------



## Whitigir

m-i-c-k-e-y said:


> Maybe an LKS MH-DA004
> 
> So how is it?




Nice guess  . It is supposed or be here tomorrow...trust me, I can not wait ....LoL


----------



## m-i-c-k-e-y

Was looking at it awhile ago.. 

If iDSD Pro will be longer, I might be swayed for that LKS or the other chinese R2R, Denafrips.

But a stacked iDSD Pro w/ iCan Pro is just irresistibile for me. Compact and powerful. My ideal size combo for desktop.


----------



## bidn

Same for me, I find it the ideal form factor for my desktop, neither too big nor to small.
If I need more outputs, to have more stuff connected, I would buy a second iCAN pro and stack it above the first


----------



## Bren Arden

@Whitigir How about the Ressonessence Veritas or Invita, theyre own implementation of ESS 9028/9038 Chips. If annyone can implement those chips it wil be them.


----------



## Tom Blake

Just chiming in here to also express my keen interest in the iDSD Pro. I own the iCAN Pro and absolutely love it. A stack of the two units should be tremendous. In the interim I am happy using the iCAN Pro with my Schiit Gungnir D-S and will wait until the iDSD Pro is released to make any decisions on DAC upgrades.


----------



## Whitigir

bren arden said:


> @Whitigir
> How about the Ressonessence Veritas or Invita, theyre own implementation of ESS 9028/9038 Chips. If annyone can implement those chips it wil be them.




I rather take discrete class A output . Anyways, I like IFI products too, especially their love for Burrbrow


----------



## Fastnbulbous

Is the Energizer still on track to come out before the iDSD? Might be time for it to have it's own thread...


----------



## LoryWiv

whitigir said:


> I rather take discrete class A output
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Pardon my lack of knowledge, but is iCan pro (and proposed spec. for iDSD Pro) pure class A amplification.
  
 I have an older iDSD which is A/B.
  
 Thanks.


----------



## Trogdor

lorywiv said:


> Pardon my lack of knowledge, but is iCan pro (and proposed spec. for iDSD Pro) pure class A amplification.
> 
> I have an older iDSD which is A/B.
> 
> Thanks.




Basically. Only low impedance headphones at very high levels are Class A/B.

But the overwhelming majority of headphones will be juiced in Class A.


----------



## LoryWiv

trogdor said:


> Basically. Only low impedance headphones at very high levels are Class A/B.
> 
> But the overwhelming majority of headphones will be juiced in Class A.


 
 So if I understand correctly, the amp is A/B but runs in A the majority of the time?


----------



## iFi audio

lorywiv said:


> So if I understand correctly, the amp is A/B but runs in A the majority of the time?


 
  
 Any modern so-called class A amplifier using solid state push-pull output stages is technically speaking class A/B once the load becomes low enough at high enough output voltage.
  
 On the iCAN Pro for example, peak output current in class A is around 150mA. After that the output stage leaves class A. 
  
 This means for 5V signals class A is maintained for loads greater than around 33 ohm. For 10V signals, the load impedance where the output stage remains in class A if around 66 ohms and for 20V signals the output stage remains in class A for loads greater than 133 Ohm.
  
 In addition, around 5V is the output of the iDSD micro in "normal mode" and of the original iCAN micro, both of which can drive most headphones splendidly at those voltages.
  
 As lower impedance headphones generally are much more sensitive and require much less voltage, it is likely fair to note that the iCAN Pro output stage is likely always in class A at the signals we expect to see with >99 % of all headphones at even deafening sound levels.


----------



## LoryWiv

Very helpful, the clearest explanation I've seen. Appreciated.


----------



## technobear

A rather worrying quote taken from the iDSD BL Tour thread:



ifi audio said:


> So what happens now? Well, we certainly didn’t forget the big giveaway at the end! If you haven’t posted your review yet, make sure to do so! As a reminder, we will be giving away one iDSD BL to each of the participating region. Additionally, two other lucky individuals will get the chance at winning a Unique Melody Martian Universal IEM *as well as a chance to spend 6 months with our long-awaited Pro iDSD before anyone else*!




from this post: http://www.head-fi.org/t/711217/idsd-micro-black-label-tour-details-page-147-release-info-page-153/2850#post_13404219

This seems to imply that the iDSD Pro won't be launched for at least another 6 months? :eek:


----------



## Cotnijoe

technobear said:


> A rather worrying quote taken from the iDSD BL Tour thread:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




One of the prizes for the contest is a loaner of the unit for 6 months. Pretty sure thats what they mean.


----------



## technobear

cotnijoe said:


> technobear said:
> 
> 
> > A rather worrying quote taken from the iDSD BL Tour thread:
> ...




Let's hope so. This thread has been running for over 3 years now and the iDSD Pro was already a functioning prototype when the thread started!


----------



## bluesaint

technobear said:


> Let's hope so. This thread has been running for over 3 years now and the iDSD Pro was already a functioning prototype when the thread started!




Seriously. More importantly, it better be light years ahead of its competition. The main selling point for me is the ability to be transportable with its small form factor as all in one solution.


----------



## m-i-c-k-e-y

Depending on price. If you want transportable, a little more extra, there will be a Hugo 2. Which I am sure a class also of its own also. 

For this, I am a wait and see attitude... If this will be good, I may go the iDSD + iCan Pro route to replace my current system. 

There are many possibilities right now and on the horizon.


----------



## bluesaint

m-i-c-k-e-y said:


> Depending on price. If you want transportable, a little more extra, there will be a Hugo 2. Which I am sure a class also of its own also.
> 
> For this, I am a wait and see attitude... If this will be good, I may go the iDSD + iCan Pro route to replace my current system.
> 
> There are many possibilities right now and on the horizon.




I'm perfectly happy with my Holo spring like r2r dsd DAC, but that isn't moveable so I'll still get the idsd pro for transportability. I don't hear the Hugo 2 as any better than idsd BL.


----------



## loplop

bluesaint said:


> I'm perfectly happy with my Holo spring like r2r dsd DAC, but that isn't moveable so I'll still get the idsd pro for transportability. I don't hear the Hugo 2 as any better than idsd BL.


 

 Have you heard Hugo 2?  I was curious about that...  But if it's not (in your opinion) much better than iDSD BL (which I really like!) I'll just stick with my BL!


----------



## bluesaint

loplop said:


> Have you heard Hugo 2?  I was curious about that...  But if it's not (in your opinion) much better than iDSD BL (which I really like!) I'll just stick with my BL!


 
 Yes I have.  I know the hugo 2's amp section is supposedly pretty superior, but I wouldn't know. I only heard the Hugo 2 and iDSD BL in DAC only setup and using desktop AMP to quickly compare. Was listening in DSD512 only mode as well and the differences were pretty subtle to me.  So as an overall pkg, the Hugo2 may still be better if you use the amp section.  But for the price hugo 2 is charging, i'd very much wait for iDSD PRO.


----------



## Fastnbulbous

Has anyone peeked at the back-end of this lately? I'm wondering if there's both fixed output (RCA & balanced) and preamp outputs?


----------



## Sound Eq

wishful thinking  i want an amp that is solid state and then can with a switch be converted to a tube amp and also has 3d and bass boost and a high end dac
  
 wow that would be amazing for a desktop amp


----------



## m-i-c-k-e-y

And that I can use my stax headphones at the same time...


----------



## Fastnbulbous

Hilarious. So helpful. It wasn't a dumb question, many DACs don't have that, especially two sets of balanced outs -- there's only so much room. While dealing with iFi support I asked that and they said it would likely have both fixed and preamp outs, but did not confirm with balanced.


----------



## Fastnbulbous

In the new Music Direct catalog I picked up at Axpona, page 70, there it is, the iFi Pro iDSD DAC, $1,999. Looks pretty official. So are pre-orders being taken? Is there a release date?


----------



## Trogdor

Fastnbulbous said:


> In the new Music Direct catalog I picked up at Axpona, page 70, there it is, the iFi Pro iDSD DAC, $1,999. Looks pretty official. So are pre-orders being taken? Is there a release date?



Funny enough, I see the February issue of Stereophile also has an ad with pricing! The plot thickens!

In all seriousness, I think iFi will update us relatively soon (not saying it's coming out, just giving a status etc.).


----------



## Tom Blake

It would be great to see an update from iFi on the iDSD Pro as well as the Energizer unit for electrostatic headphones.


----------



## apaar123

how are they for gaming? can anyone share their experience?


----------



## iFi audio

Tom Blake said:


> It would be great to see an update from iFi on the iDSD Pro as well as the Energizer unit for electrostatic headphones.



iESL is out at the end of June and  Pro iDSD follows that date. That's what we aim for.


----------



## Franatic

Is the Pro idsd dead? Over 2 years of delays, resets and empty promises and this thread is lifeless.


----------



## Fastnbulbous

Well it's another month until the end of June...


----------



## Khragon

I  jumped on the holo audio v3 nos dac band wagon.  Still interested in this though just I won't be buying one anytime soon.


----------



## sdolezalek (May 29, 2017)

If I had to guess, it must have been a bigger than expected challenge to produce a product in this price range that can noticeably outperform the iDSD Micro in terms of sound quality and you certainly can't come out with a "Pro" version that sounds just like your Micro version.  That is even more true if you are optimizing the sound of the Micro through using it with upsampling to DSD512 through software like HQPlayer.  On the other hand, while iFi have worked to figure out what would be needed to get to that quantum of improvement, it seems they have discovered other improvements that can themselves be released as Nano or Micro products (like the iUSB 3.0, iSilencer 3.0, iDefender 3.0 and the iGalvanic 3.0).  To the extent the iPro represents the combination of all of those in a single box, I think it will be a worthwhile product.  But it will also point out that we may be approaching the asymptote of affordable improvements to DAC technology (sort of where the Pentium chip took us in computing power -- better is still possible, but the improvements curve is no longer as steep).


----------



## Tom Blake

I am certainly highly interested in the iDSD Pro if it ever comes to fruition to pair with my iCAN Pro. I am also very interested in the iESL Pro and would get that first anyway to use with my Stax earphones, so iFi can take as long as they need in my book. My dealer said they are trying to add MQA so maybe that is the source of the delay? In the interim I am perfectly happy with my Gumby. If the iDSD Pro never pans out I will definitely consider the Holo Audio Spring DAC as an alternative. Though it would sure be nice to have that matching set of 3 iFi Pro boxes on my desk at some point.


----------



## Slim1970

I've seen the Pro iESL on a website for sale here: https://en.zococity.es/ifi-pro-iesl

So I guess ifi is getting pretty close to releasing it. I can't find mention of the Pro iDSD anywhere for sale but on blogs and in the 2017 Music Direct catalog like someone else mentioned in an earlier post.


----------



## Tom Blake

Interesting - thanks for that link! I heard end of June for the iESL Pro from iFi in the iCAN Pro thread. Looks like a really interesting product!


----------



## iFi audio

Franatic said:


> Is the Pro idsd dead? Over 2 years of delays, resets and empty promises and this thread is lifeless.



Nope, it's not dead. We simply take our time to make it as good as we possibly can.


----------



## Esprit

iFi audio said:


> We simply take our time


We aren't immortal...


----------



## Tom Blake

If it's taking this long how about adding an input for the AOIP standards like Ravenna? This will be an expensive DAC and it would be nice to have some measure of future-proofing.


----------



## iFi audio

Esprit said:


> We aren't immortal...



Oh my, that changes everything!

Jokes aside, fear not, we're on the case


----------



## iFi audio (Jun 5, 2017)

Tom Blake said:


> If it's taking this long how about adding an input for the AOIP standards like Ravenna? This will be an expensive DAC and it would be nice to have some measure of future-proofing.



The project is far past early stage, hence we don't think that's possible at this point. And we're into USB and other wireless solutions.


----------



## Tom Blake

iFi audio said:


> The project is far past early stage, hence we don't think that's possible at this point. And we're into USB and other wireless solutions.


Understood. However, if the release drags out much longer I am going to have to carefully consider this very promising future technology before dropping $2K on a new DAC that could be obsolete soon. I am an iFI fan and am planning to get the iESL to mate with my iCAN Pro. A DAC is a different beast than an amp though.


----------



## iFi audio (Jun 6, 2017)

Tom Blake said:


> Understood. However, if the release drags out much longer I am going to have to carefully consider this very promising future technology before dropping $2K on a new DAC that could be obsolete soon. I am an iFI fan and am planning to get the iESL to mate with my iCAN Pro. A DAC is a different beast than an amp though.



And that's perfectly understandable. We jump in our customers' shoes and we understand you. Though in case of USB we're safe at least for 'a while'.


----------



## Tom Blake

@iFi audio - I am happy with my USB performance now with a dedicated RoonServer feeding a mircroRendu and ISO Regen. That required a lot of money though! Before those additions USB sounded terrible in my system. USB is certainly still an option but when iDSD comes to market I will evaluate the AOIP landscape. The only DAC I'm aware of now in the consumer space that supports it (Ravenna) is the Merging+NADAC which is $10.5K for 2 ch or $11.5K for multichannel. So it would likely be a while until the technology is available in DACs at the iDSD price point. The Merging Zman card could accelerate that though. Please look into that technology! VERY promising.

Also it would be HIGHLY desirable if the iDSD Pro had Roon Endpoint support.

Thanks for the open communication - it is appreciated!


----------



## Esprit

iFi audio said:


> Jokes aside, fear not, we're on the case


Can I use the Pro iDSD without a preamp?


----------



## iFi audio

Esprit said:


> Can I use the Pro iDSD without a preamp?



It has a volume control built-in, so yes.


----------



## iFi audio

And I'll leave it here...

*The Pro iESL
First among energizers*



The *Pro series iESL *is an unsurpassed energiser for electrostatic headphones (and transformer-coupled stage for flagship dynamic headphones too).

The *Pro iESL* _driven by either_ the iFi Pro iCAN or a powerful amplifier takes electrostatic headphones to an unprecedented level of performance.

Its defining characteristic is a transparency and an ultra-wide dynamic range that is totally natural. The *Pro iESL* works with Stax, Sennheiser Orpheus and many more.

*Classic & Cutting Edge Technology*

The *Pro *i*ESL*’s three key elements combine the very best in classical approaches with the latest in cutting-edge technology AND superb component quality to deliver the ‘perfectly matched’ headphone experience.

• Atypical Pinstripe Permalloy Core transformer
• Bias voltage generator
• Capacitive Battery Power Supply


*Outstanding Component Quality*

One-off, hand-wound, Pinstripe Permalloy Core Transformer
Wima Capacitors
Vishay MELF resistors
Gold-plated silver and sealed-silver alloy contact relays





*Specifications*
Maximum Output voltage: 640V RMS (16Ω/20V in)
320V RMS (64Ω/20V in)
Frequency Response: 5Hz – 50kHz (-3dB)
Input Voltage (Pro iESL): 5V – 9V/1A max
Input Voltage (iPower): AC 85 – 265V, 50/60Hz
Power Consumption: < 1W
Dimensions: 213(l) x 206(w) x 63.3(h) mm
Weight: 2.5kg (5.5 lbs)

The retail price of the *Pro iESL* is *US$1,399* (ex-tax) or *€1,575/£1,395* (incl VAT).

_Stay tuned, tech stuff coming up shortly!_


----------



## bidn

iFi audio said:


> And I'll leave it here...
> 
> *The Pro iESL
> First among energizers*
> ...



Congratulations!

I have one question : the top of the Ican pro has openings to let the heat go, but the bottom has this big plastic surface and no feet on the side.
So if I put another Ican pro or an iesl on top of a first ican pro I assume that would be wrong re. heat flow, isn't it?

What  (which rack system  ) would you recommend?


----------



## h1f1add1cted

iFi audio said:


> _Stay tuned, tech stuff coming up shortly!_



Nice can't wait for more details, but could you consider a iESL "nano/mirco" edition too? Like a modern current version of the Stax SRD-7 MK2? Would be awesome!


----------



## Tom Blake

bidn said:


> Congratulations!
> 
> I have one question : the top of the Ican pro has openings to let the heat go, but the bottom has this big plastic surface and no feet on the side.
> So if I put another Ican pro or an iesl on top of a first ican pro I assume that would be wrong re. heat flow, isn't it?
> ...


I have asked the exact same question in several of the other iFi Pro threads. It is important that we get an answer to the Pro iCAN + iESL stacking question ASAP as the iESL seems to be shipping now. It also seems like the Pro iRack is not available yet. From YouTube videos I have seen of the Pro series components at shows it appears that the provided HDMI cable will be very short. If that is the case we will have to stack the 2 boxes until the iRack is released. Please provide some stacking guidance @iFi audio as it is not addressed in the iESL manual. Thanks!


----------



## iFi audio

bidn said:


> Congratulations!
> 
> I have one question : the top of the Ican pro has openings to let the heat go, but the bottom has this big plastic surface and no feet on the side.
> So if I put another Ican pro or an iesl on top of a first ican pro I assume that would be wrong re. heat flow, isn't it?
> ...



We would recommend to place the iCAN Pro on top of any stack. 

If placed below other equipment leave sufficient space for ventilation at sides and top.


----------



## Tom Blake

iFi audio said:


> We would recommend to place the iCAN Pro on top of any stack.
> 
> If placed below other equipment leave sufficient space for ventilation at sides and top.


Can you place the Pro iCAN directly on top of the iESL???


----------



## tf1216

Check this out you guys 

Pro iDSD on top, Pro ICAN in the middle and the Pro iESL at the bottom.


----------



## Tom Blake

tf1216 said:


> Check this out you guys
> 
> Pro iDSD on top, Pro ICAN in the middle and the Pro iESL at the bottom.



That's on their rack though which is not out yet. It looks to provide a bit more breathing space between each component vs direct stacking. Not sure how much heat the iESL generates but would be nice to know if iCAN can be directly stacked on top, especially since it has that solid anti-vibration pad on the bottom. Hopefully the scalloped top of the Pro series components provide enough ventilation for direct stacking.


----------



## etc6849

So it will absolutely be released in the US before say 10/2017?

I love your products, and am thinking about reordering the iCan Pro as I loved it before, just couldn't justify it without a matching DAC and I wasn't sure when/if it would come.  I still want this combo, and sold my Oppo HA-1, and so it's time for an upgrade.



iFi audio said:


> iESL is out at the end of June and  Pro iDSD follows that date. That's what we aim for.


----------



## iFi audio

To be shown with Sennheiser Orpheus HE-1 is a reason for us to be proud, hence we'll just leave the proof here...


----------



## h1f1add1cted

Would the Pro iESL could run the Sennheiser HE-1 or did you tried that too? Or it's just possible to use the Sennheiser "special HE-1 amp"?


----------



## Roen (Jun 21, 2017)

iFi audio said:


> And I'll leave it here...
> 
> *The Pro iESL
> First among energizers*
> ...


Can It drive a Shure KSE1500? 230V Bias Voltage from the 6-pin port, vs. 200V Bias Voltage Requirements from the KSE1500


----------



## Slim1970

h1f1add1cted said:


> Would the Pro iESL could run the Sennheiser HE-1 or did you tried that too? Or it's just possible to use the Sennheiser "special HE-1 amp"?



On the iESL webpage it lists the Orpheus as one of the headphones that it can drive. 

http://ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/pro-iesl/


----------



## Trogdor

@iFi audio Those pics are killer.


----------



## iFi audio

Trogdor said:


> @iFi audio Those pics are killer.



Thanks!


----------



## Fastnbulbous

So it's been a month since the iESL was released. Are we still looking at September for the iDSD?


----------



## iFi audio

Fastnbulbous said:


> So it's been a month since the iESL was released. Are we still looking at September for the iDSD?



We don't have any details regarding date, but rest assured that the product is in the pipeline.


----------



## m-i-c-k-e-y

So why the delay? You changed DAC chips/design?


----------



## iFi audio

m-i-c-k-e-y said:


> So why the delay? You changed DAC chips/design?



Simply because we want it to be as great as possible. This project is too important for us to rush it and it's far too late to do any significant changes at this point. We're tweaking things constantly and it's a very time consuming thing to do.


----------



## Tom Blake

@iFi audio - I found the following Jan 2015 post from you earlier in this thread. Is the plan outlined still the same for clock synchronization features on the Pro iDSD? I am considering some SOtM products that have clock sync capabilities and it would be nice to know for future planning if the Pro iDSD could benefit. Thanks!

*..."1) External Clock Synchronisation
*
The iDSD Pro will allow the use of external clocks for USB and AES/EBU modes.

 Options available are the use of the BNC socket as 10MHz atomic clock input (this affects all clocks and inputs).

 For external sync either Wordclock via BNC or AES3 on the XLR input are supported. Finally the BNC can be configured as wordclock out (to make one iDSD Pro the "master" in a multi channel playback setup).

 The wordclock synchronisation is mainly for professional use, but will also allow the iDSD to be used in multichannel playback at home, as for this all DACs MUST be synchronised.

The ability to add an external atomic (or other low-jitter) clock will cater to those who like to tweak their setups to the limit, as it replaces the internal crystal clock reference directly."


----------



## iFi audio

Tom Blake said:


> @iFi audio - I found the following Jan 2015 post from you earlier in this thread. Is the plan outlined still the same for clock synchronization features on the Pro iDSD? I am considering some SOtM products that have clock sync capabilities and it would be nice to know for future planning if the Pro iDSD could benefit. Thanks!
> 
> *..."1) External Clock Synchronisation
> *
> ...



Let us just say that we'll return to the iDSD Pro topic soon and everything - every tasty detail people here might be interested in - will be revealed then.


----------



## Esprit

iFi audio said:


> Simply because we want it to be as great as possible. This project is too important for us to rush it and it's far too late to do any significant changes at this point. We're tweaking things constantly and it's a very time consuming thing to do.


Jan 26, 2014 THREAD STARTER Post #1 of 1724
[...] Elephants have a longer pregnancy than any other mammal—almost 22 months[...]


----------



## Celt16

Check out the countdown clock on the ifi-audio site ... is this finally the countdown to product availability?? http://ifi-audio.com


----------



## bluesaint

highly doubt it. probably just a site re-design.  at this point, only believe it till you see it.


----------



## iFi audio

bluesaint said:


> highly doubt it. probably just a site re-design.  at this point, only believe it till you see it.



That's the reasonable approach. When we have something to share, we share. And now, to follow in that vein, we're happy to announce that our iGalvanic3.0 is going to be released on the 25th of August. Yes, 2017


----------



## Tom Blake

Just checked the site relaunch and there is no mention of the Pro models. Even the manuals have been removed from the download page. @iFi audio - Is there going to be a separate site for the Pro models?


----------



## Slim1970

Tom Blake said:


> Just checked the site relaunch and there is no mention of the Pro models. Even the manuals have been removed from the download page. @iFi audio - Is there going to be a separate site for the Pro models?


You're right, the Pro models and associated info is gone. Does this mean no Pro iDSD?


----------



## iFi audio

Slim1970 said:


> You're right, the Pro models and associated info is gone. Does this mean no Pro iDSD?



Not at all. This means that we're struggling with our site ATM and soon everything should be back to normal.


----------



## Slim1970

iFi audio said:


> Not at all. This means that we're struggling with our site ATM and soon everything should be back to normal.


Glad to hear that @iFi audio. Thanks for the update and I hope the site comes together for you guys soon.


----------



## Maelob

Looks like it's an old page ooopps- I am sure they are not happy - hope it's fixed soon


----------



## iFi audio

Maelob said:


> Looks like it's an old page ooopps- I am sure they are not happy - hope it's fixed soon



Thanks, we look forward to this as well.


----------



## DarktoreS




----------



## Slim1970

DarktoreS said:


>


How do you like the Pro iESL compared to the Stax amp? Are those the SR-L700's?


----------



## iFi audio

DarktoreS said:


>



Ah, that's a nice setup right there!


----------



## DarktoreS (Aug 26, 2017)

Slim1970 said:


> How do you like the Pro iESL compared to the Stax amp? Are those the SR-L700's?



For me is clear, the iESL is very good, but is better with big speaker amplifier. With the IDSD-Black on ''special'' cable 6.35/XLR4 is better tha SRM727 v2. This setup Pro iCan+ Pro iESL is not mine. Is for review on France. But I have test the iESL on wonderfull and expensive speaker amplifier Viva Audio Solista 17.000€ with a Stax L700 MAMAMILLA  ... Incredible 

!


----------



## Slim1970

DarktoreS said:


> For me is clear, the iESL is very good, but is better with big speaker amplifier. With the IDSD-Black on ''special'' cable 6.35/XLR4 is better tha SRM727 v2. This setup Pro iCan+ Pro iESL is not mine. Is for review on France. But I have test the iESL on wonderfull and expensive speaker amplifier Viva Audio Solista 17.000€ with a Stax L700 MAMAMILLA  ... Incredible
> 
> !


Good grief that amp is a beast sitting next to the Pro iESL and I bet the pairing does sound incredible. The iFi Pro series is an amazing system in its own right. I own them and I'm looking into getting a pair of electrostats to play through the Pro iESL. The Stax SR-L700's are high on my list. What does L700's sound like through the iESL?


----------



## DarktoreS

I have tested only with my IDSD-bLack on dac. First time the idsd connected on Stax SRM727 with rca out. After I have comare to the iESL with my spécial cable on 6.35 out directly on XLR4 input on iESL : the result is simple, for iESL is more transparency on medium and hight medium. Better detail, transparency. The SRM 727 is goog, but for me the iESL with the L700 is a very good setup. For the price on Europe 1500€ with all headphone options is very good, Hey Stax lover headphones go to listen this iFi iESL because is spécial. For the moment I continue my test, but is shure for me the iESL great value ! 

For me no doubt price and performance place the iESL too high for the SRM727. Just attach an ifi IDSD-balck and we have a cappable combo of almost any driver. I do not insist on iESL's pallet to avoid buying a headphone amplifier. With a beautiful Marantz of the series 7000 and thanks to the expectional transparency of the iESL it will be possible to combine a installation of speakers and headphones very simply. In the end I thought that the iESL would make a duplicate even for the one who already has a headphone amplifier, but it is more than that it is a superb amplifier for Stax.

As part of my test I will have to retrieve a Focal Utopia, an SR007 and another SR009 next week. But this will not change my opinion, this will reinforce the conclusion of this comparative, what I took for a second gadget iFi-Audio is a new approach to enjoy listening to the headphone. It will be I think especially very advantageous for all those who already have an instalation of enclosures at home. Without changing anything, the iESL is placed beside the existing system and it is part, whatever you want to listen to an L700 or a dynamic headphone is not a problem!


----------



## Slim1970

DarktoreS said:


> I have tested only with my IDSD-bLack on dac. First time the idsd connected on Stax SRM727 with rca out. After I have comare to the iESL with my spécial cable on 6.35 out directly on XLR4 input on iESL : the result is simple, for iESL is more transparency on medium and hight medium. Better detail, transparency. The SRM 727 is goog, but for me the iESL with the L700 is a very good setup. For the price on Europe 1500€ with all headphone options is very good, Hey Stax lover headphones go to listen this iFi iESL because is spécial. For the moment I continue my test, but is shure for me the iESL great value !
> 
> For me no doubt price and performance place the iESL too high for the SRM727. Just attach an ifi IDSD-balck and we have a cappable combo of almost any driver. I do not insist on iESL's pallet to avoid buying a headphone amplifier. With a beautiful Marantz of the series 7000 and thanks to the expectional transparency of the iESL it will be possible to combine a installation of speakers and headphones very simply. In the end I thought that the iESL would make a duplicate even for the one who already has a headphone amplifier, but it is more than that it is a superb amplifier for Stax.
> 
> As part of my test I will have to retrieve a Focal Utopia, an SR007 and another SR009 next week. But this will not change my opinion, this will reinforce the conclusion of this comparative, what I took for a second gadget iFi-Audio is a new approach to enjoy listening to the headphone. It will be I think especially very advantageous for all those who already have an instalation of enclosures at home. Without changing anything, the iESL is placed beside the existing system and it is part, whatever you want to listen to an L700 or a dynamic headphone is not a problem!


Will post you review here? I think a lot of headfiers would enjoy the read and the sound comparisons of Pro iESL with all of those headphones. I also have the iDSD BL and find it an incredible piece of gear as well.i must admit I wasn't familiar with iFi until I joined Head-Fi. Now I'm a fan for life. I can't wait until the Pro iDSD gets released so I can complete my Pro Series stack.


----------



## alphanumerix1

When is the idsd pro due out?


----------



## Sev Bordas

The iDSD Pro is the Duke Nukem Forever of DACs.


----------



## alphanumerix1

Sev Bordas said:


> The iDSD Pro is the Duke Nukem Forever of DACs.



So basically a 10 year wait for a horribly under whelming product lol


----------



## elNan (Sep 17, 2017)

alphanumerix1 said:


> So basically a 10 year wait for a horribly under whelming product lol



Given ifi's reputation and previous releases, it is safe to say that it will be an amazing product, you just need to be patient.


----------



## alphanumerix1

elNan said:


> Given ifi's reputation and previous releases, it is safe to say that it will be an amazing product, you just need to be patient.



It was a joke. I've used ifi's products before and had no complaints.


----------



## m-i-c-k-e-y

So with this silence, this will gonna be a 2018 product....


----------



## Sev Bordas

m-i-c-k-e-y said:


> So with this silence, this will gonna be a 2018 product....



Not really understanding your optimism.  

Seriously, iFi has given no indication that the iDSD Pro will be out next year.


----------



## m-i-c-k-e-y (Sep 24, 2017)

And no indication what so ever this year too. They have promised September, and we are now going to October.

Up to this time they say they are tweaking it?

I say they have been cornered with current DAC offerings.   

Sorry, moving on with other offerings...


----------



## Khragon (Sep 24, 2017)

What ever their problem is, I bet it's due to the small form factor.  I think iFi shot themselves in the foot with the form factor.  DAC needs clean power supply and the small enclosure they chosen may not be big enough for the implementation to get their desired quality.

Just as a fyi, I don't mind external power supply chassis, we can do a 2x2 stack of Pro iCan and iESL on top of a 2 chassis iDSD.  Maybe make this PS chassis power the iCan and iESL as well with higher quality power compared to the stock one. 

Jyst saying...


----------



## HeadStrong

Khragon said:


> What ever their problem is, I bet it's due to the small form factor.  I think iFi shot themselves in the foot with the form factor.  DAC needs clean power supply and the small enclosure they chosen may not be big enough for the implementation to get their desired quality.
> 
> Just as a fyi, I don't mind external power supply chassis, we can do a 2x2 stack of Pro iCan and iESL on top of a 2 chassis iDSD.  Maybe make this PS chassis power the iCan and iESL as well with higher quality power compared to the stock one.
> 
> Jyst saying...





Khragon said:


> What ever their problem is, I bet it's due to the small form factor.  I think iFi shot themselves in the foot with the form factor.  DAC needs clean power supply and the small enclosure they chosen may not be big enough for the implementation to get their desired quality.
> 
> Just as a fyi, I don't mind external power supply chassis, we can do a 2x2 stack of Pro iCan and iESL on top of a 2 chassis iDSD.  Maybe make this PS chassis power the iCan and iESL as well with higher quality power compared to the stock one.
> 
> Jyst saying...





m-i-c-k-e-y said:


> And no indication what so ever this year too. They have promised September, and we are now going to October.
> 
> Up to this time they say they are tweaking it?
> 
> ...



I think the delay must be due to implimenting MQA in the Pro.  iFi has committed to the format with their recent announcement of the Nano iDSD Black Label.  There’s no way their flagship DAC would be missing a key feature offered by a lesser model...


----------



## bjas406

HeadStrong said:


> I think the delay must be due to implimenting MQA in the Pro.  iFi has committed to the format with their recent announcement of the Nano iDSD Black Label.  There’s no way their flagship DAC would be missing a key feature offered by a lesser model...



Makes perfect sense. Meanwhile, for those looking for an iFi "fix", there's a new USB driver up on their website.


----------



## iFi audio

Dear all

Many thanks for your interest regarding the iDSD Pro.

We have now released the hardware for Pre-Production. The software is still "under construction". There are still some things we prefer to divulge once confirmed but suffice to say, we have squeezed in pretty much most of the ‘feature creep’ aspects and we will announce these when our R&D chaps give us the ok. 

Thank you all for your patience - we appreciate it. 

Best wishes

iFi audio Team


----------



## alphanumerix1

iFi audio said:


> Dear all
> 
> Many thanks for your interest regarding the iDSD Pro.
> 
> ...



Excellent news thanks for the update!


----------



## bidn

iFi audio said:


> Dear all
> 
> Many thanks for your interest regarding the iDSD Pro.
> 
> ...



Dear iFi team,

I see your company is listed among the companies participating to the following event:
Rotterdam on October 7th, 2017
http://headphone-heaven.com/

I would like to tell you that I would be very happy to be able to listen to the pre-production iDSD Pro unit at this event. Would it be possible to know whether you will bring it?

Thank you 
bidn


----------



## dolstein

Khragon said:


> What ever their problem is, I bet it's due to the small form factor.  I think iFi shot themselves in the foot with the form factor.  DAC needs clean power supply and the small enclosure they chosen may not be big enough for the implementation to get their desired quality.
> 
> Just as a fyi, I don't mind external power supply chassis, we can do a 2x2 stack of Pro iCan and iESL on top of a 2 chassis iDSD.  Maybe make this PS chassis power the iCan and iESL as well with higher quality power compared to the stock one.
> 
> Jyst saying...



The obvious solution is for iFi to offer an outboard linear power supply in a Pro-sized chassis.  Ideally, the LPS would be able to power all three Pro units (iCan, iESL and iDSD).  And they'd offer a rack that would hold all four components.

You could have a complete stack of iFi pro components:

iFi Pro iDSD DAC
iFi Pro iESL Electrostatic Headphone Energizer
iFi Pro iCan Headphone Amplifier
iFi Pro iLPS Linear Power Supply


----------



## gr8soundz

Saw this recent pic of the iDSD Pro and a new portable iFi dac called the X-DSD here:
https://www.phileweb.com/news/audio/201711/03/19231.html

No new info about the Pro but says (via Google Translate) this final version will be released next year.




 

Apparently, the X-DSD is battery-powered and part of a new X-Series line.


----------



## NuClear235 (Nov 6, 2017)

It plays from Wifi and streaming?!
Has Bluetooth support for AAC codec from Apple devices ? (not just Apt X)


----------



## iFi audio

<sneaky mode>

Yup, well... you know, we've been doing some cool 'stuff'

</sneaky mode>

Jokes aside, we've been doing some REALLY cool stuff.


----------



## bluesaint

iFi audio said:


> <sneaky mode>
> 
> Yup, well... you know, we've been doing some cool 'stuff'
> 
> ...



Just to confirm one thing.  The 3.5mm Balanced out on the iDSD PRO, will this have full balanced power to it or would it be gimped for IEM?  All my cans have balanced cables, and i have a 4pin xlr to 3.5mm balanced, so would hate to use the SE vs. the balanced out.  Before anyone mentions that's what the iCAN Pro is for, yes I'm aware, and have one, but I looking at the idsd pro as an all in one for work.


----------



## iFi audio

bluesaint said:


> Just to confirm one thing.  The 3.5mm Balanced out on the iDSD PRO, will this have full balanced power to it or would it be gimped for IEM?  All my cans have balanced cables, and i have a 4pin xlr to 3.5mm balanced, so would hate to use the SE vs. the balanced out.  Before anyone mentions that's what the iCAN Pro is for, yes I'm aware, and have one, but I looking at the idsd pro as an all in one for work.



No details yet, we'll start revealing each functionality soon.


----------



## hamachan

gr8soundz said:


> Saw this recent pic of the iDSD Pro and a new portable iFi dac called the X-DSD here:
> https://www.phileweb.com/news/audio/201711/03/19231.html
> 
> No new info about the Pro but says (via Google Translate) this final version will be released next year.
> ...



It is better to create a new thread for "X" series to discuss about X-DSD.


----------



## gr8soundz (Nov 6, 2017)

hamachan said:


> It is better to create a new thread for "X" series to discuss about X-DSD.



I thought it was worth mentioning but there's no info about it yet (same with iFi's other secret projects like the AC iPurifier). Hard to discuss something that only has a name and one photo.


----------



## hamachan

gr8soundz said:


> I thought it was worth mentioning but there's no info about it yet (same with iFi's other secret projects like the AC iPurifier). Hard to discuss something that only has a name and one photo.



OK, more photo.  The famous guy with the spec sheet of X-DSD.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DNxlJvaUQAER3cr.jpg

https://twitter.com/music2go/status/926296888843706368


----------



## gr8soundz

hamachan said:


> OK, more photo.  The famous guy with the spec sheet of X-DSD.
> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DNxlJvaUQAER3cr.jpg
> 
> https://twitter.com/music2go/status/926296888843706368



I stand corrected. A new thread sounds like a good idea. Would you mind creating it?


----------



## hamachan

gr8soundz said:


> I stand corrected. A new thread sounds like a good idea. Would you mind creating it?



Hahaha, I am still newbie and I am expecting someone to create it.  I will definitively enjoy to read the thread anyway.


----------



## Katie88

gr8soundz said:


> Saw this recent pic of the iDSD Pro and a new portable iFi dac called the X-DSD here:
> https://www.phileweb.com/news/audio/201711/03/19231.html
> 
> No new info about the Pro but says (via Google Translate) this final version will be released next year.
> ...



Thanks for uploading the pics. I've been following this thread for years in eager anticipation of the iDSD pro. I had wanted to update my iDSD micro to something I can use with great ease as a pre-amp to Icon Audio Stereo 60 mkii valve amp. Unfortunately it looks as though 3D and XBass didn't make the cut in the upgrade from iDSD micro to pro. Very sad about this. I predict ifi-audio would argue that these functions are available with the iCAN pro, but I can't really justify buying the latter together with the iDSD pro just for the sake two features. I guess I'll just stick with my iDSD micro, which is still a fantastic and versatile piece of kit. Still - A pity!


----------



## gr8soundz

Katie88 said:


> Thanks for uploading the pics. I've been following this thread for years in eager anticipation of the iDSD pro. I had wanted to update my iDSD micro to something I can use with great ease as a pre-amp to Icon Audio Stereo 60 mkii valve amp. Unfortunately it looks as though 3D and XBass didn't make the cut in the upgrade from iDSD micro to pro. Very sad about this. I predict ifi-audio would argue that these functions are available with the iCAN pro, but I can't really justify buying the latter together with the iDSD pro just for the sake two features. I guess I'll just stick with my iDSD micro, which is still a fantastic and versatile piece of kit. Still - A pity!



I was also sad to see no xbass/3d controls but that detail was confirmed some time ago. I used xbass often when I had the iDSD Micro and it would've made the Pro closer to an all-in-one solution. But that would make the iCan Pro less relevant, especially since both have balanced headphone outputs and switchable tubes.


----------



## DarktoreS

I waited a long time for the Pro Ican, and then I had to wait for it ... I found myself a Teac UD503 after the IDSD-Black, and I do not regret having changed ! By dint of compute I do not know what, the IDSD Pro will find only part of its public .... In contrast to the magic cables 3.0 that there is some. I'm beginning to believe that iFi Audio is a bit of a mess! In my environment we are many to think so ...


----------



## Katie88

gr8soundz said:


> I was also sad to see no xbass/3d controls but that detail was confirmed some time ago. I used xbass often when I had the iDSD Micro and it would've made the Pro closer to an all-in-one solution. But that would make the iCan Pro less relevant, especially since both have balanced headphone outputs and switchable tubes.



I hadn't realised this info is already out there. I searched this thread, but must have missed it buried in the 118 pages


----------



## iFi audio

Katie88 said:


> Thanks for uploading the pics. I've been following this thread for years in eager anticipation of the iDSD pro. I had wanted to update my iDSD micro to something I can use with great ease as a pre-amp to Icon Audio Stereo 60 mkii valve amp. Unfortunately it looks as though 3D and XBass didn't make the cut in the upgrade from iDSD micro to pro. Very sad about this. I predict ifi-audio would argue that these functions are available with the iCAN pro, but I can't really justify buying the latter together with the iDSD pro just for the sake two features. I guess I'll just stick with my iDSD micro, which is still a fantastic and versatile piece of kit. Still - A pity!



Just wait 'till we spill 'em beans about what Pro iDSD is capable of...


----------



## bluesaint

And hopefully it'll have xlr4 pin.  i mean this is supposed to be a pro version, and what pro/higher end audiophile don't have balanced cables...


----------



## iFi audio

bluesaint said:


> And hopefully it'll have xlr4 pin.  i mean this is supposed to be a pro version, and what pro/higher end audiophile don't have balanced cables...



Nope, no 4-pin XLR out and the same story is with i.e. our proprietary X-Bass and 3D tech. The reason is simple: Pro iDSD is a d/a converter above all else, not a typical headphone integrated solution. And having said this, it's packed with A LOT of tech suitable for the d/a job specifically (and then some!). Yes, it has a nice headphone amp built-in and we're proud of it, but this functionality is an addition to the whole package.

Think, micro iDAC2. Does it have X-Bass, 3D or 6,3 mm headphone out? That's 3 x nope. Why? Because it's a DAC, it needs DAC related things. But it does have 3,5 mm headphone out, right? Right. Because we could, in order to make it as versatile as possible within various technical limitations of this product. And if someone wants to have a nice amplifier, micro iCAN is the way to go. Therefore please think of our upcoming Pro iDSD as a device along those lines, but of grander scale. And Pro iCAN as a matching company that will satisfy the needs of headphone enthusiasts. 

Our point here is that in a restaurant you get a nice, big and juicy steak and something small on the side to make this meal complete. Pro iDSD is the main course, whereas its headphone out is a small salad nearby. Yes, we could deliver to you a steak, mushrooms and a salad, sprinkle it with french fries and drown it all in cheese. But our aim is to prepare the best piece of tender and tasty meat there is and complement it with something small and fancy. That's our way. 


TL;DR
Pro iDSD + Pro iCAN = Win!
micro iDAC2 + micro iCAN = Win!


----------



## KotBegemot (Nov 7, 2017)

iFi audio said:


> Nope, no 4-pin XLR out and the same story is with i.e. our proprietary X-Bass and 3D tech. The reason is simple: Pro iDSD is a d/a converter above all else, not a typical headphone integrated solution. And having said this, it's packed with A LOT of tech suitable for the d/a job specifically (and then some!). Yes, it has a nice headphone amp built-in and we're proud of it, but this functionality is an addition to the whole package.
> 
> Think, micro iDAC2. Does it have X-Bass, 3D or 6,3 mm headphone out? That's 3 x nope. Why? Because it's a DAC, it needs DAC related things. But it does have 3,5 mm headphone out, right? Right. Because we could, in order to make it as versatile as possible within various technical limitations of this product. And if someone wants to have a nice amplifier, micro iCAN is the way to go. Therefore please think of our upcoming Pro iDSD as a device along those lines, but of grander scale. And Pro iCAN as a matching company that will satisfy the needs of headphone enthusiasts.
> 
> ...


 I see from the photo of the unit that it has remote sensor dot.... My question is: How good will be its volume pot quality , given that I plan to use it in place of my very high end preamp ....Thanks


----------



## Katie88

iFi audio said:


> Nope, no 4-pin XLR out and the same story is with i.e. our proprietary X-Bass and 3D tech. The reason is simple: Pro iDSD is a d/a converter above all else, not a typical headphone integrated solution. And having said this, it's packed with A LOT of tech suitable for the d/a job specifically (and then some!). Yes, it has a nice headphone amp built-in and we're proud of it, but this functionality is an addition to the whole package.
> 
> Think, micro iDAC2. Does it have X-Bass, 3D or 6,3 mm headphone out? That's 3 x nope. Why? Because it's a DAC, it needs DAC related things. But it does have 3,5 mm headphone out, right? Right. Because we could, in order to make it as versatile as possible within various technical limitations of this product. And if someone wants to have a nice amplifier, micro iCAN is the way to go. Therefore please think of our upcoming Pro iDSD as a device along those lines, but of grander scale. And Pro iCAN as a matching company that will satisfy the needs of headphone enthusiasts.
> 
> ...



Your restaurant analogy seems flawed - In a restaurant you don't have to order a whole extra main course of things you don't need just to obtain your side of mushrooms, whereas if I were to buy the iDSD Pro and want 3D/XBass, I'd have to purchase the iCAN Pro alongside. Or is there some other way to get iDSD Pro united with 3D/XBass that I'm missing?


----------



## m-i-c-k-e-y

There are the side dishes Micro or Nano Ican you can order.


----------



## Katie88

Katie88 said:


> Your restaurant analogy seems flawed - In a restaurant you don't have to order a whole extra main course of things you don't need just to obtain your side of mushrooms, whereas if I were to buy the iDSD Pro and want 3D/XBass, I'd have to purchase the iCAN Pro alongside. Or is there some other way to get iDSD Pro united with 3D/XBass that I'm missing?



I really shouldn't be so aggravated- it's your product after all and you're not forcing me to purchase it. I guess had you decided to name it Pro iDAC rather than Pro iDSD, I wouldn't have set my hopes on it having the same functionality, which I've enjoyed so much, brought forward from the iDSD model in the micro series.


----------



## Katie88

m-i-c-k-e-y said:


> There are the side dishes Micro or Nano Ican you can order.



So you'd advise me to put the nano or micro iCan between the Pro iDSD and my amp? How does that work?


----------



## m-i-c-k-e-y

Sorry my bad bro, reread your previous posts, thought you want the 3D and Xbass for the 3.5mm HP connect and not going Pro.

Look at the the Micro iTube 2. Will go in between your DAC and Amp thru RCA/connection. It will be SE though not Balanced.


----------



## occamsrazor

iFi audio said:


> Just wait 'till we spill 'em beans about what Pro iDSD is capable of...



We're waiting (!!). Seriously though, I've been holding off on getting a new DAC for a year or two now, constantly thinking about new models. To be honest I had pretty totally much written off the iDSD Pro due to the very lengthy time it's been talked about but not materialized... this thread did start in Jan. 2014 
That said this phileweb article has piqued my interest again. Not sure how good the Google Translation is, but the part that translates as "In addition to the USB input, the other, Wi-Fi / wired by the network audio playback, also supports playback of music streaming" definitely interests me again. If it was Roon and Audirvana (via MPD/DLNA) compatible that would be very attractive. Though the "Release date is that it is expected to be in the next year" less so....
Understand reticence to release details early of course. Just my thoughts....


----------



## technobear

m-i-c-k-e-y said:


> Look at the the Micro iTube 2. Will go in between your DAC and Amp thru RCA/connection. It will be SE though not Balanced.


iTube has '3D for Speakers', not '3D for Headphones'.

Like Katie88, I'm irritated by the Pro iDSD and Pro iCAN. They are twice their original target price and really only make sense as a pair but then there is a lot of unnecessary duplication in those two boxes. I'm going to stick with what I have (which sounds ridiculously good already) and see what iFi eventually does next.

I would like to see an end to the obsession with small boxes. Get a bigger box and put all the functionality in it without the duplication. Add a pair of nice analogue VU meters and we're good to go.


----------



## occamsrazor

technobear said:


> Add a pair of nice analogue VU meters and we're good to go.



For the love of god..... please yes!


----------



## Katie88

occamsrazor said:


> We're waiting (!!). Seriously though, I've been holding off on getting a new DAC for a year or two now, constantly thinking about new models. To be honest I had pretty totally much written off the iDSD Pro due to the very lengthy time it's been talked about but not materialized... this thread did start in Jan. 2014
> That said this phileweb article has piqued my interest again. Not sure how good the Google Translation is, but the part that translates as "In addition to the USB input, the other, Wi-Fi / wired by the network audio playback, also supports playback of music streaming" definitely interests me again. If it was Roon and Audirvana (via MPD/DLNA) compatible that would be very attractive. Though the "Release date is that it is expected to be in the next year" less so....
> Understand reticence to release details early of course. Just my thoughts....



Re. Audirvana: I use the iDSD micro and nano with Audirvana on my Mac, and the devices are natively compatible with the Mac's OS, so I'd be surprised if the new DAC wouldn't be the same.


----------



## Katie88

technobear said:


> iTube has '3D for Speakers', not '3D for Headphones'.
> 
> Like Katie88, I'm irritated by the Pro iDSD and Pro iCAN. They are twice their original target price and really only make sense as a pair but then there is a lot of unnecessary duplication in those two boxes. I'm going to stick with what I have (which sounds ridiculously good already) and see what iFi eventually does next.
> 
> I would like to see an end to the obsession with small boxes. Get a bigger box and put all the functionality in it without the duplication. Add a pair of nice analogue VU meters and we're good to go.



My thoughts too. Too many boxes to switch on before one can actually listen to the music. Also, I would imagine the original signal would be degraded as it's passed from box to box. One's hifi begins to look like an electronics lab too (which might be attractive to some of course)


----------



## occamsrazor

Katie88 said:


> Re. Audirvana: I use the iDSD micro and nano with Audirvana on my Mac, and the devices are natively compatible with the Mac's OS, so I'd be surprised if the new DAC wouldn't be the same.



I meant compatible with Roon and Audirvana network (ethernet) streaming, not just directly-attached USB.


----------



## Katie88

occamsrazor said:


> I meant compatible with Roon and Audirvana network (ethernet) streaming, not just directly-attached USB.



Ah I see. Not such an obvious answer to that one then.


----------



## m-i-c-k-e-y

technobear said:


> iTube has '3D for Speakers', not '3D for Headphones'.



Bro, precisely. Katie88 has an Icon Audio Stereo 60 MkII. An integrated Amp.


----------



## Katie88

m-i-c-k-e-y said:


> Bro, precisely. Katie88 has an Icon Audio Stereo 60 MkII. An integrated Amp.



That's right. It's integrated with a passive preamp section. If needed the sensitivity can be changed to make way for a separate pre-amp, the role of which I had been hoping the new Pro iDSD would fulfill. It looks as though I'll have to go for the less attractive iDSD micro plus itube 2 option.


----------



## iFi audio

technobear said:


> iTube has '3D for Speakers', not '3D for Headphones'.
> 
> Like Katie88, I'm irritated by the Pro iDSD and Pro iCAN. They are twice their original target price and really only make sense as a pair but then there is a lot of unnecessary duplication in those two boxes. I'm going to stick with what I have (which sounds ridiculously good already) and see what iFi eventually does next.
> 
> I would like to see an end to the obsession with small boxes. Get a bigger box and put all the functionality in it without the duplication. Add a pair of nice analogue VU meters and we're good to go.



Our aim is to deliver as of quality *and *functional products as possible. The core functionality comes in as first, yet to implement our own proprietary tech where it makes sense is our way to go. It can be seen as 'unnecessary duplication' or as yet another feature, usable if needed or the other way around if not. 

If we'll go after a headphone integrated of the Pro family, this community will be the very first to know. For now it is what it is and what is, makes us really proud. Just wait and see 



Katie88 said:


> I really shouldn't be so aggravated- it's your product after all and you're not forcing me to purchase it. I guess had you decided to name it Pro iDAC rather than Pro iDSD, I wouldn't have set my hopes on it having the same functionality, which I've enjoyed so much, brought forward from the iDSD model in the micro series.



All good. We understand you, we really do. At times people don't agree with us, which is perfectly fine. Yet at the same time we're here to explain why we do what we do.


----------



## dolstein

I know you may not want to hear this, but I also agree that it doesn't make sense to incorporate headphone amp functionality into the iDSD Pro.  It's a DAC.  Anyone with the kind of $$$ to buy the iDSD Pro is going to by an ICAN Pro if they want a headphone amp.  There's no point in duplicating functions. 



iFi audio said:


> Our aim is to deliver as of quality *and *functional products as possible. The core functionality comes in as first, yet to implement our own proprietary tech where it makes sense is our way to go. It can be seen as 'unnecessary duplication' or as yet another feature, usable if needed or the other way around if not.
> 
> If we'll go after a headphone integrated of the Pro family, this community will be the very first to know. For now it is what it is and what is, makes us really proud. Just wait and see
> 
> ...


----------



## iFi audio

dolstein said:


> I know you may not want to hear this, but I also agree that it doesn't make sense to incorporate headphone amp functionality into the iDSD Pro.  It's a DAC.  Anyone with the kind of $$$ to buy the iDSD Pro is going to by an ICAN Pro if they want a headphone amp.  There's no point in duplicating functions.



We do want to hear everything folks here have to say. Still, we've already quite extensively covered how we see additional functionalities in our products in posts #1773 and #1789 of this thread, feel free to take a look at these.


----------



## bluesaint

I actually disagree, IFI products are relatively affordable, and for me, whole point of getting them is for the compact design and feature rich functions that punches above it's class.  It's what makes the iDSD Micro so great because its versatile while sounding excellent.  Another member already said this, it's because iFi decided to call it a iDSD Pro vs. iDAC Pro, the expectation is it includes everything that made iDSD Micro great and build on it.


----------



## Katie88

bluesaint said:


> I actually disagree, IFI products are relatively affordable, and for me, whole point of getting them is for the compact design and feature rich functions that punches above it's class.  It's what makes the iDSD Micro so great because its versatile while sounding excellent.  Another member already said this, it's because iFi decided to call it a iDSD Pro vs. iDAC Pro, the expectation is it includes everything that made iDSD Micro great and build on it.



Precisely


----------



## hamachan

technobear said:


> iTube has '3D for Speakers', not '3D for Headphones'.
> 
> Like Katie88, I'm irritated by the Pro iDSD and Pro iCAN. They are twice their original target price and really only make sense as a pair but then there is a lot of unnecessary duplication in those two boxes. I'm going to stick with what I have (which sounds ridiculously good already) and see what iFi eventually does next.



I agree with technobear.  I've recently obtained pro iCAN and happily combined with micro iDAC2 so far.  I may consider to upgrade if iFi makes "pro iDAC", not iDSD because of the above reason.


----------



## sdolezalek

I think you are missing a big part of what the iFi line is about.  By producing units that are more single purpose focused, the company can both keep price points down and release more updates than if it were offering full all-in-one solutions.  This is particularly true of the Nano and Micro lines, where we can each piece together exactly what we want without spending money on things we don't need.  

It is natural for us to want the box to do "more of everything" as the price point moves to the "pro" line, but there are a number of us who want the Pro iDSD as a DAC alone and don't want to spend extra for the fact that it also has "Pro" level headphone features, never mind features specific to electrostatics.  If you were buying the iDSD Pro as an electrostatic headphone owner, exclusively for that use, I can certainly see why you'd like all that functionality in a single box, but that means the rest of us are paying extra for things we don't need.  

That could well mean that at some point in the future there are both a Pro iDAC and a Pro iDSD that cover more of the functionality of the iDAC and iDSD Micro but at the Pro level.  But, i think most of us just want a Pro level DAC on the market, regardless of whether it looks more like an iDAC or an iDSD.  

As to target price, the real question is what do you have to offer to sound meaningfully better that what you already offer at the Micro line.  My guess is that it turned out to be more difficult than iFI originally assumed to build a $1,000 price-point iPro product that very clearly beat the Micro iDSD/iDAC in sound quality.  At $2,000, we obviously expect even more, so I'm eagerly awaiting what that prodct will sound like (particularly since the competitors have upped their own products since the iPro was first put on the drawing board).


----------



## Sc00p

I too have a pro iCan and wonder about the pro iDSD. I presumed/didn't really use my brain? the pro iDSD would've been a match for iCan. But it seems more a match/hybrid. It has the features of iDac (primarily a dac) with a headphone amp (which in this case seems a powerful one looking at the gain switch). A great looking all in one, like the mirco iDSD. 
However, i feel if i pair it up with pro iCan, i have no need for high power headphone amp and i already have tubes. So, psychologically i feel that if i pay x, i want all of x to go on the dac. So this means i would prefer if there was a pro iDac, so my question: is there a pro iDac in the works? I don't really want to buy pro iDSD then find out there will be pro iDac. I'm thinking pro iDac will be better, similar how idac2 is better than micro idsd as a standalone dac.


----------



## iFi audio (Nov 9, 2017)

Let's address this features/naming/etc. kerfuffle once more.

The iDSD Pro uses a cut down version (lower supply voltage, less Class A current and fewer output devices than iCAN Pro) of the circuitry first used in the iCAN Pro.

Its audio circuitry is mainly designed as line-driver in class A down to 600 ohm loads. However, many good line drivers can handle headphones very adequately, especially this one.

As we had requests to have headphone outputs available they were added given it just took a few parts.

The iCAN Pro has more output (Voltage / Current / Power), stays in Class A for much greater signal levels and/or impedances and offers much more flexibility in connection and headphone matching, including X-Bass & 3D-Matrix.

The iDSD Pro should be seen as a flagship DAC dedicated to offer the best possible (balanced) Line Out, that also allows you to plug in reasonably easy to drive headphones (like those of many of our competitors).

But neither it is a match for the iCAN Pro when it comes to headphone use nor is it a product primarily conceived to drive headphones.
In terms of positioning, despite the iDSD name, the iDSD Pro corresponds more to our micro iDAC2, hence a line level source meant to be paired with a dedicated headphone amp for serious headphone use.

Pro iDSD is deep down inside our iDAC2 of the Pro line. But neither we're going to rename it, nor will there be an "all in one" Pro series product that would be similar to the micro iDSD. The iDSD Pro will be the only DAC in the Pro lineup.


----------



## bjas406

iFi audio said:


> Let's address this features/naming/etc. kerfuffle once more.
> 
> The iDSD Pro uses a cut down version (lower supply voltage, less Class A current and fewer output devices than iCAN Pro) of the circuitry first used in the iCAN Pro.
> 
> ...



Given that I don't use headphones, I think the iDSD Pro is perfect for me. It seems to be a solid, versatile DAC to connect (balanced) to my Pass Labs INT-150.


----------



## Slim1970

iFi audio said:


> Let's address this features/naming/etc. kerfuffle once more.
> 
> The iDSD Pro uses a cut down version (lower supply voltage, less Class A current and fewer output devices than iCAN Pro) of the circuitry first used in the iCAN Pro.
> 
> ...


I for one never intended on the iDSD Pro being an all-in-one solution. I've always thought of it being part of a system with the Pro iCan being the amp and the iDSD Pro being the DAC. I like that it includes a headphone jack but it *shouldn't* be as capable as the Pro iCan. Your approach with the iDSD Pro is spot on in my opinion and I can't wait to complete my Pro Series stack when it becomes available.


----------



## Sc00p

Thanks for your answer, can't wait for this thing to come out.


----------



## bjas406

Any hints on the iDSD Pro having MQA capability?  - Asking for a Tidal user.


----------



## Sc00p

Any ideas on release quarter? Been waiting using the micro idsd bl as my dac, but i take it to and from work/travel and can't wait for the iDSD pro to pair with the amp so i am not reconnecting my home system every day. Thinking of investing in a dac this christmas time, but if the iDSD pro is coming early next year, i will wait.


----------



## iFi audio

bjas406 said:


> Any hints on the iDSD Pro having MQA capability?  - Asking for a Tidal user.



We look very seriously into this subject, yes. 



Sc00p said:


> Any ideas on release quarter? Been waiting using the micro idsd bl as my dac, but i take it to and from work/travel and can't wait for the iDSD pro to pair with the amp so i am not reconnecting my home system every day. Thinking of investing in a dac this christmas time, but if the iDSD pro is coming early next year, i will wait.



Nothing specific yet. But it's coming.


----------



## Noneya (Dec 25, 2017)

iFi audio said:


> We look very seriously into this subject, yes.
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing specific yet. But it's coming.



So is Jesus, but I'm not waiting up nights (Sorry, stole that from Doonesbury, lol).

Was considering getting this, as I love my Micro iDSD BL and wanted a balanced DAC to go with my Mjolnir. But with all the delays, lack of concrete info concerning ETA, and my concerns about pricing, I might just go with the Oppo UDP-205 instead.

Also, the cloying coyness about the release date and implementation of MQA ("Will they, or won't they?") is becoming a bit much. C'mon, people - it's your product. You know if you'll enable the DAC to support it or not.

But I'm sure the Pro iDSD will be a stellar product, whenever it comes out.


----------



## aterville

iFi audio said:


> We look very seriously into this subject, yes.
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing specific yet. But it's coming.



Factories are gonna close in China soon ... so nothing before end of Q1 2018 is the best expectation unless proven otherwise.
This is starting to be a joke


----------



## iFi audio

aterville said:


> Factories are gonna close in China soon ... so nothing before end of Q1 2018 is the best expectation unless proven otherwise.
> This is starting to be a joke



We understand that you might be annoyed. Yet we were very open that with our Pro iDSD we'll take as much time as we have to and not a single day longer 

This is a very important product for us. It has some remarkable features and to have it shipped ASAP yet without any early days related flaws is crucial for us.

For now we can only thank to every person out there waiting for this product. We promise that we won't dissapoint you as it's going to be glorious. And yes, we're working as fast as we can to have it released as soon as possible.


----------



## Sev Bordas

I hope that @iFi audio waits or passes on MQA.  The firmware on the Nano BL has some persistent issues with regards to MQA and it would add insult to injury if MQA was the reason for the delay of the iDSD Pro.  I think this DAC could be something really special, and I'm hoping it doesn't turn out to be the Duke Nukem Forever of DACs.  I also hope iFi doesn't wait so long that it becomes obsolete by the time it's released.


----------



## iFi audio

Sev Bordas said:


> I hope that @iFi audio waits or passes on MQA.



We look into MQA deeply. 



Sev Bordas said:


> The firmware on the Nano BL has some persistent issues with regards to MQA



Firmware can fix this and that's something we work on constantly. 



Sev Bordas said:


> and it would add insult to injury if MQA was the reason for the delay of the iDSD Pro.



This is not the reason why our Pro iDSD isn't here yet. Please see below.  



Sev Bordas said:


> I think this DAC could be something really special, and I'm hoping it doesn't turn out to be the Duke Nukem Forever of DACs.



It won't. We're taking our time with this one as it has several very unique functionalities and circuitry related things that need extensive testing. We go this road instead of delivering unfinished goods.  



Sev Bordas said:


> I also hope iFi doesn't wait so long that it becomes obsolete by the time it's released.



Not possible, please trust us here


----------



## iFi audio (Dec 26, 2017)

*Preview – Pro series - part 1/5*
*Pro iDSD*
*Is there anything like it?
*
*Introduction*




Over the past few years iFi audio has delighted audiophiles and confounded industry experts with its growing range of high-quality, low-cost and very portable digital-to-audio converters (DACs). Music fans on the move could at last listen to Direct Stream Digital (DSD) on well-built portable devices that didn’t cost the Earth (£500 and under in fact).

Now, iFi is set to rock the digital world again with the launch of iDSD Pro, a ground-breaking Quad DAC that will be used across the next generation of iFi products. Yes, it’s taken a while to come to market but, boy, has it been worth the wait! There is simply nothing like it.

Coming up next, you'll be able to feast your eyes on our Pro iDSD jaw-dropping features. Rest assured that very shortly you'll see what we mean.

*Stay tuned!
*
P.S. This might look like one fine Xmas tease and it is. But then again, it's *so much more* on top of that, things are going to happen very soon.


----------



## Maelob

Hope is under 2k USD-


----------



## Roscoeiii

Go on...


----------



## Slim1970 (Dec 25, 2017)

iFi audio said:


> *Preview – Pro series - part 1/3*
> *Pro iDSD*
> *Is there anything like it?
> *
> ...


Finally, some good news!


----------



## frogmeat69

Oh crap, time to start selling stuff!


----------



## iFi audio

frogmeat69 said:


> Oh crap, time to start selling stuff!





We won't deny it, things are about to happen!


----------



## GHoldridge

Very exciting news. Is that an antenna I see coming out the back?


----------



## Noneya

iFi audio said:


> We won't deny it, things are about to happen!



Um, when exactly? How soon is "very soon"? Has a definite ETA been set yet?


----------



## Roscoeiii

They'll tell us when they are ready to announce it. Relax.


----------



## iFi audio

GHoldridge said:


> Very exciting news. Is that an antenna I see coming out the back?



It is indeed!


----------



## iFi audio

Roscoeiii said:


> They'll tell us when they are ready to announce it. Relax.



Yup, this community will be the very first one to know.


----------



## iFi audio (Jan 9, 2018)

*Preview – Pro series - part 2/5*
*Jaw-dropping features*

*1) Quad DAC section*

The iDSD Pro uses a Quad ‘stack’ of the iFi Bit-Perfect DSD and DXD DAC by Burr-Brown in a custom ‘interleaved’ configuration. This enables a total of eight pairs of differential signals to be used and mixed – that’s four pairs of signals per channel.





While the iDSD Pro includes field programmable gate arrays (FPGA) for digital remastering duties – where we believe they excel – there are also external D/A sections, with a limited number of elements. In the iDSD Pro we use four interleaved 64-Element converters, to create a 256-Element DAC per channel, manufactured at high level of precision.

All signals to the DACs are re-clocked with the low-jitter Global Master Timing® master clock derived from the AMR DP-777.


*2) Studio DSD Remastering*

_Bit-Perfect or Upsampled_

All digital processing is Bit-Perfect, without employing an Asynchronous Sample Rate Converter (ASRC), or by up-sampling unless digital filters are explicitly selected. A variety of digital filters (including Bit-Perfect mode without digital filtering) are available.

The iDSD Pro supports both USB 3.0 Type B connections. All inputs (including USB) are galvanically isolated and the USB input is self-powered. The SPDIF inputs use technology derived from the AMR DP-777 including a new, solid-state implementation of the _HD_-VDi, memory buffer and the Global Master Timing® clock system.

Click on this link for more information on iFi’s SPDIF solution:

http://www.amr-audio.co.uk/html/dp777_tech-papers_spdif.html


_Next Generation X-Core 200_





The iDSD Pro features the new XMOS XU216 X-Core 200 Series 16-Core processor with a maximum of 2,000 MIPS (two billion instructions per second) calculation power in dual-issue mode as a USB interface. It can decode signals from all Inputs, from USB (up to 768kHz/DSD512), AES/EBU or S/PDIF (up to 192kHz/24Bit) and Wifi/Network/Mass-storage (up to 192kHz/32Bit).

*Stay tuned!*


----------



## Celt16

The above says 2 of 5 - I didn’t see #1 - was it posted? Are the others coming?


----------



## iFi audio

Celt16 said:


> The above says 2 of 5 - I didn’t see #1 - was it posted? Are the others coming?



One page earlier there's the first part and yes, more is coming.


----------



## Roscoeiii

Most intriguing, exciting lil bit in there is underlined below: 

"It can decode signals from all Inputs, from USB (up to 768kHz/DSD512), AES/EBU or S/PDIF (up to 192kHz/24Bit) *and Wifi/Network/Mass-storage (up to 192kHz/32Bit)."*


----------



## gr8soundz

Good to see the worlds's first usb 3.0 dac is finally a reality. Sounds like the iGalvanic might be built-in too.

However, the pic in part 1 shows DSD at 49MHz suggesting DSD1024. Is the 'simulated' screen real or is DSD512 at 22/24MHz still the max (like the iDSD Micro)?


----------



## GHoldridge

gr8soundz said:


> Good to see the worlds's first usb 3.0 dac is finally a reality. Sounds like the iGalvanic might be built-in too.
> 
> However, the pic in part 1 shows DSD at 49MHz suggesting DSD1024. Is the 'simulated' screen real or is DSD512 at 22/24MHz still the max (like the iDSD Micro)?



Well I could be wrong about the usb but I think it’s refering to USB 3.0 and 3.1 type connectors both on a dac at the same time as a worlds first. It doesn't say it’s actully a usb 3.0 dac


----------



## Khragon

Usb 3.0 bandwidth and 2 billion ips does that mean it can potentially process surround sound without requiring software mixing. Maybe even do virtual room 3D mixing?


----------



## Matez

gr8soundz said:


> However, the pic in part 1 shows DSD at 49MHz suggesting DSD1024. Is the 'simulated' screen real or is DSD512 at 22/24MHz still the max (like the iDSD Micro)?



My bet is that DSD1024 is the real thing here. I also see no reason to fabricate stuff as important as this. It also makes sense to push the limit higher in the Pro range.


----------



## iFi audio (Jan 1, 2018)

*Preview – Pro series - part 3/5
Even more jaw-dropping features*

_Hi-Res Network Audio_





As the flagship in iFi Audio’s formidable fleet of DACs, the iDSD Pro is extremely highly specified. In addition to traditional inputs, it features:

WiFi/network playback system with leading streaming services (see below)
MQA decoding onboard for the maximum quality of playback via MQA music files or streaming.
Wide protocol support including Airplay and USB Memory/Hard Drive/SD Card playback to make a full standalone streamer/network audio player with 32 Bit/192kHz & DSD64 support.
The iDSD Pro gives you plenty of options for playing music online. Here are a few of them:

Play direct from SD card
Airplay Network Audio Playback from iPhone, iPad, Mac Computers
Use Digital Living Network Alliance (DLNA) to playback from smartphones, tablets and Windows/Linux computers
Stream playback from Amazon Music, Audible, Spotify, TIDAL, Napster, Spotify Connect, and QQPlayer
Playback from Hard disk drive, USB Memory or SDHC Memory Card
Playback from Network Attached Storage (NAS)




_Zero Jitter for all inputs_

For all inputs data is sent to the aforementioned Memory Buffer, which iFi describes as ‘large’ and ‘elastic’. Here it is de-jittered to eliminate any transmission of source jitter to the DAC output. The data from the Memory Buffer is further re-clocked by with the low-jitter Global Master Timing® clock, which also drives the X-Core 200 & FPGA.

Click on this more information on iFi’s jitter solution:

http://www.amr-audio.co.uk/html/dp777_tech-papers_jitter.html

_Studio Remastering_

While the X-Core 200 is favourable for USB Audio, AES/EBU/SPDIF decoding and decoding MQA, DSD, it is not the best platform for DSP, digital filters and PCM-to-DSD conversion. This is where the iDSD Pro’s Studio DSD Remastering system comes in. It excels at handling the Upsampling and Digital Filter duties and has at its heart the Crysopeia FPGA Digital Engine for digital filtering and PCM to DSD remastering, up to DSD1024.





Upsampling in hardware, on board has enabled iFi Audio to overcome the current USB limitation of DSD512 as well as implement multiple filters optimised for specific time-domain behaviour, including that of the DAC and Analogue stage, a level of optimisation not possible in generic software upconversion (as found in Foobar _et al_).

*The five filters available are:*

‘Bit-Perfect’              No digital filtering is applied, 1 Tap
‘Bit-Perfect+’            No digital filtering is applied, 1 Tap
‘Minimum Phase’     Minimum filtering, no pre-ringing, minimum post ringing, 32 Taps
‘Apodising’                Modest filtering, no pre-ringing, modest post ringing, 128 Taps
‘Transient Aligned’   Max filtering, max Pre-Ringing, maximum Post-Ringing, 16,384 Taps
*Stay tuned, there's more!*


----------



## Roscoeiii

Can the buffer be disabled for times when you need audio synced with video? Or is any lag insignificant enough that audio and video wouldn't appear to be out of sync?

Lots of cool stuff here folks!


----------



## Wildcatsare1

iFi audio said:


> *Preview – Pro series - part 3/5
> Even more jaw-dropping features*
> 
> _Hi-Res Network Audio_
> ...



I wish I could hit love, I would most definitely do so! I cannot wait for the Tour for the of iDSD Pro!


----------



## iFi audio

Wildcatsare1 said:


> I wish I could hit love, I would most definitely do so! I cannot wait for the Tour for the of iDSD Pro!



It'll happen, that's a given. Just a lil' bit more!


----------



## Wildcatsare1

iFi audio said:


> It'll happen, that's a given. Just a lil' bit more!



Thank you, looking forward to listening and reviewing the iDSD Pro!


----------



## gr8soundz

Hardware upsampling to DSD1024 is great. Now, no need to upgrade CPU just for that purpose.

@iFi audio Please tell me there's also an HDMI (style) input like the iCan Pro and ESL that accepts I2S inputs?


----------



## Noneya

Roscoeiii said:


> They'll tell us when they are ready to announce it. Relax.



No need to "relax"; was just asking simple questions. After over 3 years, inquiring minds and all that...

And my questions weren't directed to you, but to someone who would actually know. But thanks anyway for stating the obvious. They'll tell us when they're ready - genius! Lol


----------



## technobear

iFi audio said:


> ... USB Memory/Hard Drive/SD Card playback to make a full standalone streamer ...
> 
> ... Playback from Hard disk drive, USB Memory or SDHC Memory Card ...


I'd like to know more about this.


----------



## GHoldridge

Wow I can only imagine how much this puppy is going to cost. I really do love these preview articles on the tech, thought process, and sometimes issues that went into a product


----------



## Matez

GHoldridge said:


> Wow I can only imagine how much this puppy is going to cost. I really do love these preview articles on the tech, thought process, and sometimes issues that went into a product



Probably somewhere around 2K, maybe a bit less. That's my guess.


----------



## aterville

Matez said:


> Probably somewhere around 2K, maybe a bit less. That's my guess.


I guess this would be more in the 2,5 K to 3K unfortunately


----------



## Schwibbles

Definitely expecting it to be at least 2k.


----------



## EVOLVIST

I'm still interested in this. I've gone through a Chord DAVE and a Linn KDS/3 between when this was first announced and today. I'm currently using the Linn, which I'm happy with, but the iDSD Pro might be a bargain compared, as iFi always is.

All of this and switchable between tubes and SS still?

I don't see any new AMR stuff. It seems as if iFi is near taking over completely.


----------



## ra990

I think they have said somewhere that it's going to come in under 2k, or am I making that up?


----------



## iFi audio (Dec 29, 2017)

aterville said:


> I guess this would be more in the 2,5 K to 3K unfortunately



We aim at ~$2'500 and we do our best to have price as low as possible.



gr8soundz said:


> Please tell me there's also an HDMI (style) input like the iCan Pro and ESL that accepts I2S inputs?



No HDMI, sorry. But lots of awesome stuff instead.



EVOLVIST said:


> All of this and switchable between tubes and SS still?



Yup.



EVOLVIST said:


> I don't see any new AMR stuff. It seems as if iFi is near taking over completely.



AMR is very much alive.



technobear said:


> I'd like to know more about this.



We'll reveal all key features shortly.


----------



## Khragon

All these sporadic release posts are confusing, if you are going to play this game at least put links to previous and later release posts on all posts for easy reference.


----------



## iFi audio

Khragon said:


> All these sporadic release posts are confusing, if you are going to play this game at least put links to previous and later release posts on all posts for easy reference.



In short, everything we published from post #1809 is the most relevant as since then we feel confident and ready to put more and more light on our upcoming Pro iDSD. Not a game but the very real thing is happening.


----------



## Allvey

iFi audio said:


> We aim at ~$2'500 and we do our best to have price as low as possible.



For the sake of my bank account I do hope you offer a trade-up program.


----------



## iFi audio

Allvey said:


> For the sake of my bank account I do hope you offer a trade-up program.



In short, no.


----------



## Rich Brkich

iFi audio said:


> In short, no.



To interject here, do ask your iFi dealer if he accepts trade-ins. While there is no official trade-up program, there are dealers (l can speak for myself as a iFi dealer), that if a customer walks in the door (or calls, emails, whatever) with a iDSD BL or some other DAC (made by iFi Audio or not) and wants to trade it in towards a iDSD Pro, I/they will not turn the customer away.  I know many dealers don't accept trade-ins these days, but there are a number who still do.  Check with your iFi Audio dealer  and see what they say. It does not hurt  to ask. As long as the dollars and cents can work out to the satisfaction of the customer and dealer - you may have a easy way here to trade-up without having to sell your old DAC yourself.

Cheers,
Rich


----------



## Roscoeiii

Not to mention that iFi gear tends to sell quickly for a pretty decent price on the Headfi For Sale forums.


----------



## iFi audio

Rich Brkich said:


> To interject here, do ask your iFi dealer if he accepts trade-ins. While there is no official trade-up program, there are dealers (l can speak for myself as a iFi dealer), that if a customer walks in the door (or calls, emails, whatever) with a iDSD BL or some other DAC (made by iFi Audio or not) and wants to trade it in towards a iDSD Pro, I/they will not turn the customer away.  I know many dealers don't accept trade-ins these days, but there are a number who still do.  Check with your iFi Audio dealer  and see what they say. It does not hurt  to ask. As long as the dollars and cents can work out to the satisfaction of the customer and dealer - you may have a easy way here to trade-up without having to sell your old DAC yourself.
> 
> Cheers,
> Rich



Yes, there's no official iFi audio trade-in program. But as Rich said, individual distributors/resellers might have their own thing of this sort going on, hence it surely doesn't hurt to ask.


----------



## iFi audio (Jan 2, 2018)

*Preview – Pro series - part 4/5*
*Jaw-dropping features - the story goes on...*

*Full Galvanic Isolation*

All inputs are galvanically-isolated (including USB). As found in the AMR DP-777.

The USB Input is self-powered and does not draw power from the USB bus, making it impervious to after-market add-ons or tuning accessories.





*Cutting-Edge SPDIF technology
*
The SPDIF etc. inputs use the technology derived from the AMR DP-777, including a new, solid-state implementation of HD-VDi, memory buffer and the Global Master Timing® clock system:

http://www.amr-audio.co.uk/html/dp777_tech-papers_spdif.html
http://www.amr-audio.co.uk/html/dp777_tech-papers_jitter.html

The SPDIF etc. inputs are not expected to benefit much from any kind of tweaking or tuning gizmos.

*External Clock options and  Synchronisation*

For synchronization in recording studios the iDSD Pro supports AES3id based DARS (Digital Audio Reference Signal) as recommended in the Audio Egineering Society’s published AES11 standard. And if you happen to have a really good atomic clock (at least a Sanford Research Systems PERF10 should be used) this can be used as to further elevate the iDSD Pro over the internal clock system.





Yes, this is hugely over-specified but the iFi flagship deserves it.

*Passive Filtering and Discrete Analogue stage*

The DACs operate ‘Voltage Output Mode,’ giving >119dB dynamic range. All filtering is passive, using a fully-balanced third order capacitor/inductor/capacitor filter, rather than active, feedback-based circuits, to remove ultrasonic noise. (Active filters struggle with the amount of ultrasonic noise and RFI they have to handle and at a few 100kHz they can lose the ability to filter noise at all, which is precisely where a lot of noise is present.)

Using passive CLC filtering directly after the DAC means that the following analogue stage is not required to handle ultrasonic noise and RFI originating from the DAC process. Directly after the DAC and filter is the analogue domain volume control, which uses a six-track Alps Japan potentiometer. This can be bypassed for the line outs.





The analogue stage is more precisely a line/headphone driver stage. Using Class A circuitry, it is fully-balanced, fully-discrete, direct-coupled (coupling capacitor less) and Tube/Solid-State user-selectable.

*Stay tuned, there's more!*


----------



## EVOLVIST

Happy New Year...and thank you iFi! 

Is your numbering system off, though? It seems as if we already had Pt.2 and Pt.3, on our way to Pt.4, then we get another Pt.2  

It's okay; I'll take it.


----------



## iFi audio

EVOLVIST said:


> Happy New Year...and thank you iFi!
> 
> Is your numbering system off, though? It seems as if we already had Pt.2 and Pt.3, on our way to Pt.4, then we get another Pt.2
> 
> It's okay; I'll take it.



Oops! Our bad. Part four just went online.


----------



## Elawarai (Jan 2, 2018)

Hello,

Happy New Year 

Maybe this question has ever been answered elsewhere but can we hope at least one digital output to benefit from iFi Audio's streamer and signal improvements on another DAC ? For a streamer unit, I believe that could be a good option !


----------



## Sev Bordas

Thank you @iFi audio for the update.  I'm very much looking forward to an announcement of a release date for the iDSD Pro!

One question: your 4/5 post above talks about clocks.  Does the iDSD Pro use an OCXO clock?


----------



## iFi audio (Jan 2, 2018)

Sev Bordas said:


> Thank you @iFi audio for the update.  I'm very much looking forward to an announcement of a release date for the iDSD Pro!
> 
> One question: your 4/5 post above talks about clocks. Does the iDSD Pro use an OCXO clock?



1. Once we have the exact date set, this community will be the first one to know. We're almost there.

2. Our Pro iDSD uses clocks crystal based upon the AMR clock system good enough to a point where to hear any improvement you'll need an external one of quality, i.e. that Sanford product we've discussed in our recent tech talk.


----------



## iFi audio (Jan 7, 2018)

*Folks, we were able to catch our Skin the skunk lady for a short iDSD Pro related Q&A session. *




Who knows? Maybe in the future she'll be able to give us even more insight about the product itself? In the meantime, here goes...


*Us: People ask how we do USB galvanic isolation on the Pro. Is it the same as iGalvanic? A trickle-down perhaps?*

Skin: No, in the iDSD pro we operate very differently. We use a suitable isolation barrier between the digital (noisy) section with XMOS, WiFi/networking, the Chrysopeia FPGA and the DAC's / Reclocking / Clock. In essence, all noisy digital processing is confined to a blocked of "island" on it's own board and isolated from all audio circuitry.

This parallels the way in which i.e. the JVC K2 system is implemented for playback and the isolation of the DAC from digital noise found in the legendary Marantz CD/DA-12 system featuring the TDA1541. All this is essentially trickle-down from the DP-777.

The iGalvanic isolates the USB connection instead, so it is a less complete solution which can't isolate noise inside the DAC itself.


*Us: And what clocks do we use? *

Skin: We use the same proprietary GMT clock system as originally developed for the AMR DP-777. Please see here to know more:

http://www.amr-audio.co.uk/html/dp777_individual.html


*Us: Are there digital outputs on the Pro?*

Skin: No, what would be the point? This device was designed as a d/a converter above all else.


*Us: What is the RJ-45 output for?*

Skin: It is not an output, it is a connection to your local area network (LAN). For reliable streaming, especially for high resolution audio wireless networking can be frustrating with dropouts and glitches.

If streaming hi-res content from a NAS or a server on your home network, a hard-line network connection is preferred over WiFi.


*Us: Does the iDSD Pro use an OCXO clock?*

Skin: No, baking a crystal merely reduces long term thermal drift (over periods of minutes to hours) which is inconsequential to audio playback. We employ a high quality miniaturized 10MHz discrete crystal (not canned oscillator) as timebase for our GMT clock system.

The GMT clock system allows the clock frequency to be set with appx. 0.01ppm (parts per million) or better than 0.5Hz accuracy compared to the nominal 45/49MHz audio clock frequencies


*Us: At this price and by your earlier comments about USB (and SPDIF) inputs being impervious to upstream tweaks & add ons, that the PRO iDSD contains ALL of the micro iUSB3.0 and iGalvanic3.0 and SPDIF iPurifier tech, all built in?*

Skin: Items like the iUSB or iG are "add-ons" for DAC's that due to cost constraints or other reasons benefit from such add-ons. But they are ideally avoided in the design stage if increased cost and complexity is not objectionable.

If one designs from scratch, a DAC without having much in terms of constraints placed upon the design, it is possible to achieve equal or better performance by design.

This is what has been done in the iDSD Pro. The solutions chosen are radically different from those used in iUSB 3.0 and iG 3.0 and are integrated in the design of the iDSD Pro much deeper than would have been the case by just adding the tech from other products.


*Us: Skin, many thanks!*

Skin: Yup, anytime, but not too often as I have things to do!


----------



## Roscoeiii

Does the memory buffer mean that there will be a noticeable delay (audio & video being out of sync) for audio if this is being used in an AV setting? If so is it possible to turn off the memory buffer for those situations or for certain inputs?


----------



## Roscoeiii

Has a list of all the digital inputs been provided yet? I've seen various inputs mentioned here and there, but don't recall seeing a full list and didn't see one just now quickly scanning the updates from iFi.


----------



## iFi audio

Roscoeiii said:


> Has a list of all the digital inputs been provided yet? I've seen various inputs mentioned here and there, but don't recall seeing a full list and didn't see one just now quickly scanning the updates from iFi.



Shortly we'll reveal this, stay tuned.


----------



## iFi audio

Roscoeiii said:


> Does the memory buffer mean that there will be a noticeable delay (audio & video being out of sync) for audio if this is being used in an AV setting? If so is it possible to turn off the memory buffer for those situations or for certain inputs?



The buffer size between DP-777 and iDSD Pro is similar; short enough to not cause any issues with lip-sync, long enough to make sure the programmable clock will be stable after adjustment.


----------



## gr8soundz

Can we please get Part 1 (of the features) now?

I think it's great that iFi actively participates here, especially with the detailed explanations of what your products do.  However, it's not so great waiting 2 weeks, slowly being fed pieces of final specs for a DAC that needed 4 years of development _after_ it was announced.


----------



## Roscoeiii

iFi audio said:


> The buffer size between DP-777 and iDSD Pro is similar; short enough to not cause any issues with lip-sync, long enough to make sure the programmable clock will be stable after adjustment.



Great to hear and thanks for the quick reply. Now back to my iDSD Micro! Damn I love this thing...


----------



## Roscoeiii

gr8soundz said:


> Can we please get Part 1 (of the features) now?
> 
> I think it's great that iFi actively participates here, especially with the detailed explanations of what your products do.  However, it's not so great waiting 2 weeks, slowly being fed pieces of final specs for a DAC that needed 4 years of development _after_ it was announced.


I dunno, I kind of like this rollout in installments. It also lets us ask and get clarifications a little bit at a time and not be overwhelmed by getting all of the details at one. To each their own.


----------



## iFi audio

gr8soundz said:


> Can we please get Part 1 (of the features) now?
> 
> I think it's great that iFi actively participates here, especially with the detailed explanations of what your products do.  However, it's not so great waiting 2 weeks, slowly being fed pieces of final specs for a DAC that needed 4 years of development _after_ it was announced.



Shortly we'll do this exactly, yet not at this moment. 

And here 'shortly' means days, not months.


----------



## bluesaint

The marketing folks at IFI are simply doing their job. Like many companies, they are simply going off the rollout playbook they been utilizing for all their launches the last couple years.  ie info info info, announcement, tour program, launch, etc.  The delivery mechanism may be unconventional since they didn't start this thread, and was not able to "reserve" post spots early on to keep the info flowing without user posts interleaving in between.


----------



## iFi audio (Jan 3, 2018)

bluesaint said:


> The marketing folks at IFI are simply doing their job. Like many companies, they are simply going off the rollout playbook they been utilizing for all their launches the last couple years.  ie info info info, announcement, tour program, launch, etc.  The delivery mechanism may be unconventional since they didn't start this thread, and was not able to "reserve" post spots early on to keep the info flowing without user posts interleaving in between.



It is slightly inconvenient, but we work with what we have. In the long run, the official Pro iDSD thread will be established and we'll accumulate all nfo realeased thus far in there.

At the same time we are aware that some folks here would like to have everything dished out clearly, but - as you've correctly noticed - there's a grand plan behind every product we introduce to the market and our Pro iDSD is no different in this regard.

Besides, this is a complex device and our piece by piece tech nfo publication somewhat helps to decrease the number of the same questions. Between our publications there's time to digest their content.


----------



## Elawarai (Jan 3, 2018)

> *Us: Are there digital outputs on the Pro?*
> 
> Skin: No, what would be the point? This device was designed as a d/a converter above all else.



The point is a streamer is also interesting for the ability to switch between DACs. You can use the DAC you prefer regarding the music you listen or the way you listen to it. More over, if you love the functions of the streaming unit (speed, reliability, buffer, playlist management, music app, and/or compatibility) and not the sound of the DAC, this is quite a sad situation because everything stays or goes away.

On the ICan Pro, you got 3 pairs of RCA inputs, RCA and XLR output and many headphone outputs. On iESL, you got the faculty to connect an amplifier for speaker and also to use old electrostatic headphones or a dynamic headphone in XLR4.

*IMHO, the "Swiss knife" aspect of you products (size, power, connections, compatibility and functions) are a big part of their interest ! The interest of having a maximum of high end capacities in a small assembling of boxes. *

A Streaming and DAC unit which can't be use as a standalone streamer is, in my opinion, a bad point, quite opposite to this mind.

But that's just my opinion.


----------



## iFi audio

Elawarai said:


> The point is a streamer is also interesting for the ability to switch between DACs. You can use the DAC you prefer regarding the music you listen or the way you listen to it. More over, if you love the functions of the streaming unit (speed, reliability, buffer, playlist management, music app, and/or compatibility) and not the sound of the DAC, this is quite a sad situation because everything stays or goes away.
> 
> On the ICan Pro, you got 3 pairs of RCA inputs, RCA and XLR output and many headphone outputs. On iESL, you got the faculty to connect an amplifier for speaker and also to use old electrostatic headphones or a dynamic headphone in XLR4.
> 
> ...




Comparing DACs? There's much easier way to listen and compare them in the* apples to apples fashion on-the-fly*:

I. Use a Windows PC
   -Use JRiver
   -Setup zones in this program
II. Use a USB cable
III. Use micro iUSB3.0
IV. Connect two DACs to iUSB3.0 via two identical USB cables
V. Connect each DAC to a different input of the same amplifier  
VI. Level match them

It doesn't get any easier/faster to switch rapidly between DACs in exactly the same environment and on-the-fly as this. And you can use either headphones or a pair of speakers, it's up to you.  

Here's the guide for you: https://ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/iusb3-0-2/


 

And having explained all this, let us say it again: Pro iDSD is a DAC above all else, everything on top of this key functionality we were able to squeeze in the same box is a bonus. Pro iDSD is already stuffed to the roof with goodies and if one needs a standalone streamer, he gets himself a standalone streamer. We strive to please as many enthusiasts as possible, yet not everything can be done.


----------



## EVOLVIST

So, if I have this correct, one can plug in a direct RJ45 LAN line into the iDSD Pro? If this is true, it would seem to me that if one uses UPnP bridge in let's say, a headless computer, like the SonicTransporter, then one _can_ control the music via Roon, straight into the iDSD Pro via a LAN line. Would this be correct?


----------



## iFi audio

EVOLVIST said:


> So, if I have this correct, one can plug in a direct RJ45 LAN line into the iDSD Pro? If this is true, it would seem to me that if one uses UPnP bridge in let's say, a headless computer, like the SonicTransporter, then one _can_ control the music via Roon, straight into the iDSD Pro via a LAN line. Would this be correct?



Please see what LinkPlay offers as that's what our Pro iDSD is based on as far as network music playback goes: http://linkplay.com

Roon isn't a part of LinkPlay yet, maybe in the future, but that's above us.


----------



## Elawarai

iFi audio said:


> Comparing DACs? There's much easier way to listen and compare them in the* apples to apples fashion on-the-fly*: (...)
> 
> And having explained all this, let us say it again: Pro iDSD is a DAC above all else, everything on top of this key functionality we were able to squeeze in the same box is a bonus. Pro iDSD is already stuffed to the roof with goodies and if one needs a standalone streamer, he gets himself a standalone streamer. We strive to please as many enthusiasts as possible, yet not everything can be done.



I'm not talking of comparing but switching from one to another considering the wished sound. But I note that the iUSB 3.0 allows to replicate the usb signal for two connections.

I wonder how it's complicated to insert a digital output on a streamer ... You can find many streamers with both DAC and digital output and not very expensive for some of them :











I totally understand you haven't planned it but I'm a bit disappointed with that because that's so simple and useful.


----------



## Roscoeiii

Elawarai said:


> I'm not talking of comparing but switching from one to another considering the wished sound. But I note that the iUSB 3.0 allows to replicate the usb signal for two connections.
> 
> I wonder how it's complicated to insert a digital output on a streamer ... You can find many streamers with both DAC and digital output and not very expensive for some of them :
> 
> ...



Disappointed that a DAC doesn't have a digital output? Wow. That's a new one. Can't please everyone.

I suppose you could buy an ADC to follow the DAC though i can't figure out why you'd want to on a DAC like this


----------



## Tom Blake

iFi audio said:


> Please see what LinkPlay offers as that's what our Pro iDSD is based on as far as network music playback goes: http://linkplay.com
> 
> Roon isn't a part of LinkPlay yet, maybe in the future, but that's above us.


So the iDSD Pro cannot function as a Roon endpoint as part of its streaming functionality?.


----------



## Elawarai (Jan 4, 2018)

Roscoeiii said:


> Disappointed that a DAC doesn't have a digital output? Wow. That's a new one. Can't please everyone.
> 
> I suppose you could buy an ADC to follow the DAC though i can't figure out why you'd want to on a DAC like this



Not for the DAC, for the streamer.


----------



## iFi audio

EVOLVIST said:


> So, if I have this correct, one can plug in a direct RJ45 LAN line into the iDSD Pro? If this is true, it would seem to me that if one uses UPnP bridge in let's say, a headless computer, like the SonicTransporter, then one _can_ control the music via Roon, straight into the iDSD Pro via a LAN line. Would this be correct?



Actually we'll elaborate on this subject more. To answer your question, yes, this would be correct. 

You can use any player/control system that supports DLNA or Airplay. If a Windows PC is used as Roon core, then our iDSD Pro can be connected via DLNA. Equally if a Mac is used as Roon core, then our upcoming flagship can be connected via Airplay.

The iDSD Pro also integrates into multi-room systems with any Linkplay protocol compatible devices, including products by Harman Kardon, Energy speakers and GE, yet this list goes on and on.

For now there is no Roon endpoint option. This functionality is currently being investigated and - if possible -  will arrive as a firmware upgrade in the future. However we can't formally promise that this will happen as it's not entirely up to us.


----------



## iFi audio

Elawarai said:


> I wonder how it's complicated to insert a digital output on a streamer ...



The iDSD Pro is a flagship DAC first, foremost and only. It integrates network audio bridge functionality to avoid needing an external streamer.



Elawarai said:


> Not for the DAC, for the streamer.



The networking component is deeply embedded in the whole memory buffer/clock management of the iDSD Pro. It can't neither function in any sense in a stand-alone manner nor is it possible to provide a digital output from it without adding a lot of extra circuitry and reducing the integration between the actual DAC side and networking component, which would possibly impact on sound quality. 

Again, the iDSD Pro is NOT a streamer that happens to have a DAC, but our TOTL DAC that includes networked sources as an input option, in addition to traditional inputs.


----------



## iFi audio

Folks, you might wanna see this post...

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/ifi-audio-pro-idsd-the-official-thread.869144/


----------



## Alcophone

Elawarai said:


> I'm not talking of comparing but switching from one to another considering the wished sound. But I note that the iUSB 3.0 allows to replicate the usb signal for two connections.
> 
> I wonder how it's complicated to insert a digital output on a streamer ... You can find many streamers with both DAC and digital output and not very expensive for some of them :
> 
> ...


This surprises me, too. The $200 iFi nano iDSD has a coax out, somewhat randomly. Why not this one? USB out is much harder, of course, that I would not expect.


----------



## Sc00p

Will the istack pro be available?


----------



## Roscoeiii

Alcophone said:


> This surprises me, too. The $200 iFi nano iDSD has a coax out, somewhat randomly. Why not this one? USB out is much harder, of course, that I would not expect.


iFi answered this two or so posts above yours:

Post #1876 The networking component is deeply embedded in the whole memory buffer/clock management of the iDSD Pro. It can't neither function in any sense in a stand-alone manner nor is it possible to provide a digital output from it without adding a lot of extra circuitry and reducing the integration between the actual DAC side and networking component, which would possibly impact on sound quality.


----------



## iFi audio (Jan 7, 2018)

*Preview – Pro series - part 5/5*
*Jaw-dropping features - the story ends*

*Power Supplies*

Using classic tube design, brought up-to-date with 21st Century technology, all incoming DC is converted to a high-frequency waveform then rectified and filtered by a choke input capacitor filter. This produces a first-level DC bus from which all further voltages are derived. The circuit also generates a galvanically-isolated power supply voltage for the USB input circuitry.








The digital section is powered by a bank of Super Capacitors totaling 6.6 Farad (6,600,000uF). iFi uses Elna Dynacap DZ (TM) Super capacitors because they have a 400 times lower internal impedance than common grades of super capacitors.

Individual low-noise TI LDO Regulators with local LC filtering provide the final low-noise power for all individual digital sections, a total of six individual regulators cover Clock, SPDIF Input and the DAC's digital section.

For the analogue stage (especially the tubes) higher voltages are needed. The whole stage effectively operates on a 60V rail offering massive potential dynamic range.

The USB input section has its own separate power management system with multiple regulators and filtering operating from the galvanically-isolated voltage generated to power this section.





For the analogue stage, higher voltages (especially for the tubes) are needed. The whole analogue stage in effect, operates on 60V rail, giving massive potential dynamic range. These are generated from the main DC Bus and filtered using multiple stages of inductor/capacitor filters, with Elna Silmic Capacitors forming the final stage.

Every section in the iDSD Pro has received massive attention to detail and combines classic design techniques for tube equipment with state-of-the-art technology to deliver extreme performance.

*iDSD Pro Features*

_Sample Rates:  _ 

PCM up to 768kHz                                               
DSD up to 24.576MHz                                                
DXD and double speed DXD (2xDXD)
_Studio DSD Remastering:  _ 

PCM 705.6/768kHz (from all PCM sample rates)        
_Crysopeia FPGA Digital Engine:_

DSD 512/1024 (22.5792 - 49.152MHz) user-selectable
_Inputs:      _ 

USB (required for DSD, DXD and sample rates above 192KHz)
Wifi – Linkplay
Ethernet – Linkplay
USB-Memory/Harddrive – Linkplay
SDHC Memory Card - Linkplay
AES3 (XLR - single link)
SPDIF (RCA/Optical combo)
BNC multifunction In (SPDIF/AES3id In, DARS In, 10MHz In, Atomic clock in                           
BNC multifunction Sync Out (DARS out, 10MHz out)
_Outputs:       _ 

Balanced XLR at 4.6V (+15.5dBu - HiFi) or 10V (+22dBu - Pro)
Single Ended RCA at 2.3V (HiFi) or 5V (Pro)
Headphones 6.3mm & SE 3.5mm Jack at 2.3V, 5V or 8V maximum
Headphones BAL 3.5mm Jack at 4.6V, 10V or 16V maximum
Headphones out 1,500mW RMS X 2 @ 64 ohm, 4,000mW max. 2 X @ 16 Ohm
_Volume Control:  _ 

Balanced (quad) Alps potentiometer, motorised with IR remote control
XLR/RCA outputs can be selected as fixed level or adjusted
6.3mm Headphone Jack is always adjusted
_Other Functions:        _ 

Various digital and analogue filters can be selected for DSD and PCM up to 192KHz
_PCM Filters:    _ 

Bitperfect (no digital filter, minimal analogue filter)
44.1 - 192KHz, always used for 352.8 - 768kHz

Bitperfect II (no digital filter, analogue filter corrects HF rolloff)
44.1 - 96kHz

Minimum Phase (Filter has no pre-ringing and minimises post-ringing)
44.1 - 384KHz, 32 Tap

Apodising  (Filter has no pre-ringing and moderate post-ringing)
44.1 - 384KHz, 128 Tap

Transient Aligned (Filter has extreme pre- and post-ringing)
44.1 - 384KHz, 16384 Tap

additional fixed 3nd order analogue filter @ 100kHz
_DSD Filters: _ 

fixed 3rd order analogue filter @ 100kHz, compensation for 6dB level difference between DSD & PCM


----------



## Roscoeiii

Very cool stuff. Look forward to more details about the magical BNC input you've got there...


----------



## EVOLVIST

iFi audio said:


> *Preview – Pro series - part 2/5*
> *Jaw-dropping features*
> 
> *1) Quad DAC section*
> ...



Thank you, iFi for all the new information. I've quoted this section - now that you've laid out all the features and we're a month away from release - to see if you can explain in more detail how the quad stack effects the SQ, and how this approach differs, or is superior, to your competitors? I mean, I really don't know, because everyone has their own way to skin a cat, and it seems that iFi is doing something different here. So, different, in fact, that I can't make heads or tails out of it. 

With all of the different filters, obviously you included them because you believe there are different benefits for each. Concerning the filters, is this a matter of catering to those who want non-upsampled audio, as well as those who want to upsample?

Lastly, for going into the iDSD Pro via LAN, one is limited to 24/192 input, correct, but this still can be upsampled to what exactly? In other words, the iDDS Pro upsamples the data coming in via a LAN line to x times DSD?

Thank you for your time. It seems like a brilliant product!


----------



## ra990

Is the headphone amplifier in this the same caliber as the micro black label/ican se or even better?


----------



## iFi audio

ra990 said:


> Is the headphone amplifier in this the same caliber as the micro black label/ican se or even better?



It's second only to standalone Pro iCAN.


----------



## Katie88

iFi audio said:


> It's second only to standalone Pro iCAN.



Except it won't have 3D or XBass of course. If you like those, stick to your BL


----------



## ra990

iFi audio said:


> It's second only to standalone Pro iCAN.


And it has both single ended and balanced out for headphones, is that right?


----------



## iFi audio (Jan 9, 2018)

ra990 said:


> And it has both single ended and balanced out for headphones, is that right?



Single-ended 6.3mm, single-ended 3,5mm and balanced 3,5mm headphone outs. Three in total.



Katie88 said:


> Except it won't have 3D or XBass of course. If you like those, stick to your BL



True, it won't have these.



EVOLVIST said:


> Thank you, iFi for all the new information. I've quoted this section - now that you've laid out all the features and we're a month away from release - to see if you can explain in more detail how the quad stack effects the SQ, and how this approach differs, or is superior, to your competitors? I mean, I really don't know, because everyone has their own way to skin a cat, and it seems that iFi is doing something different here. So, different, in fact, that I can't make heads or tails out of it.
> 
> With all of the different filters, obviously you included them because you believe there are different benefits for each. Concerning the filters, is this a matter of catering to those who want non-upsampled audio, as well as those who want to upsample?
> 
> Lastly, for going into the iDSD Pro via LAN, one is limited to 24/192 input, correct, but this still can be upsampled to what exactly? In other words, the iDDS Pro upsamples the data coming in via a LAN line to x times DSD?



We'll be explaining all this gradually. In the meantime, digital filtering related part one is down below.


----------



## iFi audio (Jan 9, 2018)

*The story about digital filters ... *
*... as we see it*

Alright, let's be frank about one thing...

*ALL FILTERS ARE WRONG. ALL OF THEM, INLUDING THE 'NO FILTER' OPTION.*

The reason is that such rules like Nyquists's law sampling theorem are true, but are limited by strictures that make them not directly applicable to highly variant signals (e.g. music) which may contain content that can't be resolved into finite numbers of sine-wave wavelets.





Digital filters are based on steady state mathematics and thus distort the music signal, primarily in the time domain. This is an unavoidable byproduct of their function. Operating without filter distorts the music in a different way.

Many publications offer good reasons why a specific form of digital filter is superior. Usually the reasons are based on theory and in how close a given filter implementation comes to such a theoretical ideal.

What is commonly omitted and ignored are listening tests of radically different filters with different types of signals.

All digital filters (including non) differ in how they are wrong and how this influences objective measured performance as well as subjective listening performance with music and indeed specific music. 





Music with a highly percussive nature and many instruments containing non-harmonic sounds (i.e. Jazz or Pop) will react different with a digital filter than music which is based mainly on pure tones and harmonics (i.e. a string ensemble plus a soprano singing).

These distortions become all the more relevant and carry greater possible audible consequences, the lower the sample rate. So the most abundant digital music source - CD quality - is most impacted.

Wherever there is a difference, there is also a preference. Subjective listening preference may be informed by a learned or acquired response to recorded sound (e.g. what sounds "right" or "hifi" is not what sounds natural in comparison to a live performance), in addition to direct referencing acoustic music performances.

So, no matter what single fixed filter is present, it is wrong and may not be preferred by a customer at least not with all music. What AMR implemented in the DP-777 (...and now iFi audio in the Pro iDSD) is to give a user a choice between the CORE possible approaches to digital filtering that we have found to produce meaningful differences and preferences in listening. 





We offer the option to bypass digital filtering completely, to select minimum phase filters of differing structure (minimum ringing or apodising) or to select a "transient aligned" FIR filter that offer a maximally long filter response and number of taps to come closes to the idealised textbook filter.

Hence we do not prescribe ONE singular 'perfect' approach, we offer the choice between different approaches that have all been declared by their respective proponents to be 'perfect' and leave the choice which kind of 'perfection' is preferred to the customer.





Note, not everyone is sensitized to the differences digital filters make. Whatever your preference, simply choose what you like based on either what you believe to be right or on what sounds best to you. We do recommend to experiment with filters at least occasionally, especially once listening to different styles of music than usual.

*Stay tuned, coming up is Pro iDSD's digital filtering!*


----------



## EVOLVIST

That's one thing I love about iFi; they are always honest in their approach. Very cool!

BUT! - if you keep rolling out data this slow, guys, then the release day will be upon us, and you'll have just wrapped up your explained features.


----------



## Khragon

Please include a table of content with links for all of these posts for us to easily read the entire story.


----------



## iFi audio

EVOLVIST said:


> That's one thing I love about iFi; they are always honest in their approach. Very cool!
> 
> BUT! - if you keep rolling out data this slow, guys, then the release day will be upon us, and you'll have just wrapped up your explained features.



We still have some time left to explain everything.


----------



## iFi audio

Khragon said:


> Please include a table of content with links for all of these posts for us to easily read the entire story.



There already is one, please see our Pro iDSD official thread, everything we publish is there:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/ifi...atched_thread_reply_messagetext#post-13964862


----------



## iFi audio

*The iDSD PRO offers the following choices of digital processing:*

I. _Direct - Bitperfect _

Both PCM and DSD signals are not processed in any way. 
For PCM this is effectively what is sometimes called "non-oversampling" or "zero-oversampling", for DSD it means DSD is retained in the original DSD format and directly converted to analogue without any digital processing.

II. _PCM - upsampling_ 

In this case PCM is up-converted to 16 X PCM (705.6/768kHz) using a choice of digital filters (Minimum Phase, Apodising, Transient Aligned) that offer different tradeoffs of time-domain and frequency-domain performance.
DSD remains completely unprocessed.

III. _DSD - Remastering_

In this case all incoming audio (except DSD512) is converted to either DSD512 or DSD1024 as selected, using the filter selected (including Bitperfect, meaning no digital filtering is applied).
All the above mentioned digital processing options apply to all sources, including the network audio bridge and AES/EBU & S/PDIF inputs. 
Inputs other than USB are currently limited to maximum sample rates of 192kHz PCM and DSD(64) via DoP.

   

*In the nutshell, when:*

DSD512 Remaster is selected, then all audio (except DSD512) is upconverted to DSD512.
DSD1024 Remaster is selected, then all audio (yes, DSD512 as well) is upconverted to DSD1024.
The upconversion process allows different digital filters, including Bitperfect (no filter), to be selected.



For example, this image shows the screen in DSD Remaster DSD1024 mode with a 44kHz input signal being upconverted to DSD1024 (45.158MHz) using the Bitperfect filter.


----------



## Katie88

iFi audio said:


> *The iDSD PRO offers the following choices of digital processing:*
> 
> I. _Direct - Bitperfect _
> 
> ...


I don't understand how something can be both up-converted and bit-perfect simultaneously. If the signal is up-converted, won't the signal be altered and therefore no longer bit-perfect? 

What am I misunderstanding here?

Thanks


----------



## Khragon

What is the general sound signature for pcm and dsd remastering? Dsd remastering will operate on pcm signals as well?


----------



## technobear

Katie88 said:


> I don't understand how something can be both up-converted and bit-perfect simultaneously. If the signal is up-converted, won't the signal be altered and therefore no longer bit-perfect?
> 
> What am I misunderstanding here?
> 
> Thanks


There are two settings at play here:

1) Digital Filter (of which there are 4 settings)

2) DSD Remastering (of which there are 3 settings)

These two settings interact.

The first case is DSD Remastering set to OFF. In this case if Digital Filter is set to Bit Perfect, then you get case I - no upconversion and no filtering. If Digital Filter is set to anything else then you get case II - PCM undergoes integer upconversion to 16x PCM and the selected digital filter is applied.

The second case is DSD Remastering set to either DSD512 or DSD1024. In this case (III) all PCM undergoes integer upconversion to 16x PCM (I'm assuming it is still 16x here) and then the selected digital filter is applied before conversion to DSD. If Digital Filter is set to Bit Perfect then no digital filter is applied before conversion to DSD.

The only confusing thing is that the digital filter setting is still called Bit Perfect even though the result is not.

Keep in mind that only integer upsampling is used so the original samples are still in there after upconversion before a digital filter is applied. In this sense and if no digital filter is applied, the PCM data could still be said to be bit perfect before it is converted to DSD.


----------



## Katie88

technobear said:


> There are two settings at play here:
> 
> 1) Digital Filter (of which there are 4 settings)
> 
> ...



Thank you for taking the time to explain that with such clarity. 

There's another thing I can't yet get my head around, and can't find a proper explanation for: I perfectly understand compression a wav file to make an mp3. However, I just don't get how upsampling works. Presumably some kind of opposite of compression, but I don't understand how data, which wasn't there in the first place can be 'fabricated' as it were to create a more HD file.

I know there's something I'm fundamentally missing in the way I'm looking at this subject, but it would be great if you could explain it as well as you just did with 'bit-perfect' etc.


----------



## technobear (Jan 15, 2018)

Katie88 said:


> However, I just don't get how upsampling works. Presumably some kind of opposite of compression, but I don't understand how data, which wasn't there in the first place can be 'fabricated' as it were to create a more HD file.


Math(s). Lots and lots of math(s).

Edit: there's a simple description here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upsampling

I used to write software that did similar things using curve fitting, first in desktop publishing and later in mapping to plot circles and ellipses at odd angles on maps. Fun stuff. Lots of trigonometry, Bezier curves, splines, complex numbers and vector algebra. Remember those? Don't worry if you don't. Not many people can get there heads around that stuff. One of the reasons I was able to retire at 45 I guess. I'm not a mathematician though - just an engineer.


----------



## iFi audio

Katie88 said:


> I don't understand how something can be both up-converted and bit-perfect simultaneously. If the signal is up-converted, won't the signal be altered and therefore no longer bit-perfect?
> 
> What am I misunderstanding here?
> 
> Thanks



DSD upconversion with the Bitperfect mode on operates without applying any digital filter. The signal is directly modulated into a DSD512 or DSD1024 and a digital low-pass is applied.

In effect this produces a non-oversampling type signal (with aliases, impulse response etc. matching a non-oversampling DAC), but the actual signal is high order DSD.

And yes, technobear explained it all spot on.


----------



## EVOLVIST

So that I understand, inputs other than USB - like RJ45 - cannot be upsampled, and all of the settings do not apply? So, if I have a 16/44.1 signal coming in, the iDSD Pro will just play it, but no DSD remastering and no upsampling to 16xCD, correct?


----------



## technobear

EVOLVIST said:


> So that I understand, inputs other than USB - like RJ45 - cannot be upsampled, and all of the settings do not apply? So, if I have a 16/44.1 signal coming in, the iDSD Pro will just play it, but no DSD remastering and no upsampling to 16xCD, correct?


I can't see anything in what iFi have written to suggest that.


----------



## EVOLVIST

technobear said:


> I can't see anything in what iFi have written to suggest that.



Or, is this simply stating that you can input up to 24/192 and DSD64, as opposed to anything higher, for the iDSD Pro to work its magic?



> Inputs other than USB are currently limited to maximum sample rates of 192kHz PCM and DSD(64) via DoP.



Frankly, if this is the case, I don't see what would be the benefit of going into the iDSD Pro with anything other than 16/44.1 if one is going to upsample, to DSD1024. I guess one wouldn't get the benefit of going "bit-perfect" with native DSD256 or DSD512, or DXD, but for upsampling PCM (which is most of my collection), in theory, you're still going to get close to the best this DAC can produce I imagine.


----------



## EVOLVIST

Will the iDSD Pro have the three-way toggle for Solid State, Tube and Tube+? I know it was stated that it was switchable from solid state to tubes. I simply wondered about the Tube+ feature.


----------



## technobear

EVOLVIST said:


> Will the iDSD Pro have the three-way toggle for Solid State, Tube and Tube+? I know it was stated that it was switchable from solid state to tubes. I simply wondered about the Tube+ feature.


There's a clue in this picture:






Digital filtering only applies to PCM. DSD is always bit perfect.

Why would you think there is no benefit to 24/96 over 16/44.1? Both can be remastered to DSD512 or DSD1024. It's like the difference between trying to polish a rock and trying to polish a turd. Starting with 24/192 will give a smoother final result.


----------



## iFi audio

technobear said:


> There's a clue in this picture:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Fast as per usual. Do you ever sleep?


----------



## kj510 (Jan 17, 2018)

Hi iFi Audio,

I have 2 questions about the IR remote function of iDSD Pro.

1) What can we do with the remote? Only Volume Up/Down like iCan Pro?

2) Do iCan Pro and iDSD Pro remote influence each other? I mean if I turn volume Up, then iDSD Pro also reacts volume up? I have iCan Pro and if I add iDSD Pro, I thought the remote could affect both volumes...

Thank you,


----------



## Trogdor

kj510 said:


> 2) Do iCan Pro and iDSD Pro remote influence each other? I mean if I turn volume Up, then iDSD Pro also reacts volume up? I have iCan Pro and if I add iDSD Pro, I thought the remote could affect both volumes...



The volume knob has nothing to do with the line-level output from a DAC to the amp. This is universally true.

The volume knob for the iDSD Pro would effect the internal amp built into it, not the iCan Pro's amp stage. I'm not iFi Audio but it HAS to work this way.

You can try this out for yourself: Take the micro iDSD and turn the volume knob up and down while it is connected to a separate amp. It has no effect. DAC's produce line-level output PERIOD. Amps will, well, amplify it.

Does that make sense to you?


----------



## hamachan

Trogdor said:


> The volume knob has nothing to do with the line-level output from a DAC to the amp. This is universally true.
> 
> The volume knob for the iDSD Pro would effect the internal amp built into it, not the iCan Pro's amp stage. I'm not iFi Audio but it HAS to work this way.
> 
> ...


Well, you should understand why kj510 is asking about it because iFi products (DAC/Amps) are not consistent about line out functionality about volume control.  For example of my inventry of iFi products regarding RCA line out;

pro iCAN: volume dependent
micro iDAC2: fixed volume
nano iDSD (original silver version):volume dependent

I read some reviews that nano iDSD BL (black version) is changed to fixed volume for the line out.


----------



## Katie88

Trogdor said:


> The volume knob has nothing to do with the line-level output from a DAC to the amp. This is universally true.
> 
> The volume knob for the iDSD Pro would effect the internal amp built into it, not the iCan Pro's amp stage. I'm not iFi Audio but it HAS to work this way.
> 
> ...



Actually the micro iDSD has a switch on the bottom to toggle between ‘direct’ and ‘preamp’. If the latter is selected, the volume will change.


----------



## Trogdor

Right, but then you are using it as a preamp.


----------



## Sev Bordas

Hello @iFi audio !

This post is for questions about the MQA implementation in the iDSD Pro.  Please refer to this article for context:



> "We discovered that prior to applying the MQA firmware update earlier this year, MQA had recommended that we adopt using MQA up-sampling for all content in order to eliminate possible issues with click or pop noises when switching between non-MQA and MQA content. After some discussion with Alan at MQA about this, he had the following comment: 'The MQA decoder provides an optional up-sampler for PCM to simplify implementation and to enable a smooth, clean, click-free user experience. The reason this is offered is that the implementer may not know if the incoming stream is MQA and so the decoder is used to detect MQA and to provide a seamless switch to the usually higher output rate. By using Upsample Always, the user-experience is guaranteed to be accurate from the first sample of an MQA song and also to be free of clicks and pops if the user skips within a song or if there are cross-fades between songs.'



I own a iDSD Nano BL, and the constant upsampling seem to be engaged there (had to flash non-MQA firmware to restore functionality of the sample rate LED color indicator).

My first question is, how does MQA affect the remastering and filter modes available on the iDSD Pro?

My second question is, has iFi considered offering a non-MQA version of the iDSD Pro so that A) buyers don't have to worry about possibly compromised performance and B) buyers are not forced to pay MQA due to the licensing costs that iFI has to pass on to consumers?

Looking forward to a release date announcement for the iDSD Pro!


----------



## iFi audio (Jan 19, 2018)

kj510 said:


> Hi iFi Audio,
> 
> I have 2 questions about the IR remote function of iDSD Pro.
> 
> ...



Yes, the remote is the same for both devices and yes, it will control both of their volume controls, IF these are enabled.

Of course there's no point in having two volume controls active. Simply set Pro iDSD to fixed line-out (HiFi). Then the signal bypasees completely its volume control module and Pro iCAN's volume control can be used instead.



Sev Bordas said:


> This post is for questions about the MQA implementation in the iDSD Pro.  Please refer to this article for context:



We don't comment other peoples' work, that's one of our principles. 



Sev Bordas said:


> I own a iDSD Nano BL, and the constant upsampling seem to be engaged there (had to flash non-MQA firmware to restore functionality of the sample rate LED color indicator).



In case of nano iDSD BL, the MQA beta firmware currently upsamples non-MQA streams to 8x PCM via a filter of our specification.



Sev Bordas said:


> My first question is, how does MQA affect the remastering and filter modes available on the iDSD Pro?



In case of Pro iDSD,  anything non-MQA will not pass through MQA upsampling and that's it.



Sev Bordas said:


> My second question is, has iFi considered offering a non-MQA version of the iDSD Pro so that A) buyers don't have to worry about possibly compromised performance and B) buyers are not forced to pay MQA due to the licensing costs that iFI has to pass on to consumers?



No, we don't consider it. If one doesn't like MQA, s/he shouldn't use it.



Sev Bordas said:


> Looking forward to a release date announcement for the iDSD Pro!



It's been known for a good while now:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/ifi-audio-pro-idsd-the-official-thread.869144/


----------



## Katie88

iFi audio said:


> Yes, the remote is the same for both devices and yes, it will control both of their volume controls, IF these are enabled.
> 
> Of course there's no point in having two volume controls active. Simply set Pro iDSD to fixed line-out (HiFi). Then the signal bypasees completely its volume control module and Pro iCAN's volume control can be used instead.



That’s good. Would the volume pot be spinning around all the same, albeit redundantly?


----------



## iFi audio

Katie88 said:


> That’s good. Would the volume pot be spinning around all the same, albeit redundantly?



It rotates from point A to B, just like the one in Pro iCAN, not endlessly. Input selector on the former is endless, though.


----------



## Sev Bordas

iFi audio said:


> In case of nano iDSD BL, the MQA beta firmware currently upsamples non-MQA streams to 8x PCM via a filter of our specification.
> 
> 
> 
> In case of Pro iDSD,  anything non-MQA will not pass through MQA upsampling and that's it.



Thank you for the prompt response.  There has been much credible discussion lately about the quality of MQA's filters.  I just wanted to make sure that those possibly inferior filters do not compromise your new flagship in any way.


----------



## despinos

Hello,
Will there be an app to browse music associated to the streaming bridge capability? I’m thinking about something similar to the lightning app of Auralic Aries.
How does the rj4t input compares to AOIP tech (e.g Dante)?
Thanks
DAVID


----------



## iFi audio

despinos said:


> Hello,
> Will there be an app to browse music associated to the streaming bridge capability? I’m thinking about something similar to the lightning app of Auralic Aries.
> How does the rj4t input compares to AOIP tech (e.g Dante)?
> Thanks
> DAVID



Please search Muzo app, accessible on both Apple and Android platforms.


----------



## iFi audio

*GE5670 reserved for flagship AMR and iFi*
*Press release*

We have some mixed news for lovers of the GE5670.

It is our understanding that we have tracked down and acquired the last known large-scale stockpile of GE5670 tubes.



 

The good news is that we have amassed a respectable inventory for AMR to use in their machines and for iFi to use in their flagship ‘Pro’ series for the foreseeable future (read: years).

The bad news is that once units in the supply chain of iTUBE2s and NOS6922s are all gone, there will be no more. The recent rise in the price of the GE5670 makes it even more the right decision to not continue with using the GE5670 in this product. Given that we need to reserve 2 pcs of the GE5670 for each Pro iDSD and Pro iCAN and for the AMR 777 machines too, priority must be given to these flagship products.

*History of the venerable GE5670*

For those wishing to delve into the history of the GE5670 and why we chose it over its ‘lesser’ cousin the 6922:

https://ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/accessory-nos-6922-2/


----------



## technobear

iFi audio said:


> Please search Muzo app, accessible on both Apple and Android platforms.


http://www.muzohifi.com/app/


----------



## despinos

Thanks for the info


----------



## kj510

Thank you for all of your comments on my questions.

I was thinking to use iDSD Pro's volume as an attenuator and use iCan Pro's volume as a main volume with the remote (as iCan's volume never goes above 9 O'clock position for my system), but if the remote signal is the same for both my plan fails.... maybe only to close physically to cover the IR receiver. It would be nice if you make a cool official cover for this purpose.

Thank you,





iFi audio said:


> Yes, the remote is the same for both devices and yes, it will control both of their volume controls, IF these are enabled.
> 
> Of course there's no point in having two volume controls active. Simply set Pro iDSD to fixed line-out (HiFi). Then the signal bypasees completely its volume control module and Pro iCAN's volume control can be used instead.
> 
> ...


----------



## iFi audio

Folks, you might wanna check this out:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/ifi-audio-pro-idsd-the-official-thread.869144/page-2#post-14003726


----------



## tonyo442

bonjour, actuellement j'ai aussi le ifi pro ican, j'attends le ifi pro iDSD, pour le comparer à mon dac T+A dac8, ma question, est ce que si l'on place le curseur en position 0 db ou 9 db ou 18 db l'augmentation de la puissance ne dégrade t il pas le signal, serait il possible de connaitre le fonctionnement interne des amplis, y a t il 3 amplis à l’intérieure des boîtiers qui permet la demande de puissance, merci
Tony


----------



## m-i-c-k-e-y (Mar 2, 2018)

English please. Or use an online translator.


----------



## tonyo442

m-i-c-k-e-y said:


> English please. Or use an online translator.



hello, I also have the ifi pro ican, I'm waiting for the ifi pro iDSD, to compare it to my dac T + A dac8, my question, is that if we place the cursor in position 0 db or 9 db or 18 db the increase in power does not degrade the signal, would be possible to know the internal operation of the amps, are there 3 amps inside the boxes that allows the demand for power, thank you
Tony


----------



## Katie88

m-i-c-k-e-y said:


> English please. Or use an online translator.


It’s quite basic French, but I f you don’t understand French, you can use an online translator yourself. I just checked google translate and the translation is accurate.


----------



## tonyo442

hello, I also have the ifi pro ican, I'm waiting for the ifi pro iDSD, to compare it to my dac T + A dac8, my question, is that if we place the cursor in position 0 db or 9 db or 18 db the increase in power does not degrade the signal, would be possible to know the internal operation of the amps, are there 3 amps inside the boxes that allows the demand for power, thank you
Tony


----------



## tonyo442

[QUOTE = "Katie88, poste: 14077628, membre: 486070"] C'est un français assez basique, mais si vous ne comprenez pas le français, vous pouvez vous-même utiliser un traducteur en ligne. Je viens de vérifier google translate et la traduction est exacte. [/ QUOTE]
merci, merci,.....


----------



## iFi audio

Hi tonyo442

For the iDSD Pro and iCAN Pro we use circuitry that keeps a constant feedback factor with varying gain so for the same output voltage and load adjusting effectively changes only the volume control position.

Best wishes

iFi audio team


----------



## m-i-c-k-e-y

Katie88 said:


> It’s quite basic French, but I f you don’t understand French, you can use an online translator yourself. I just checked google translate and the translation is accurate.



Sorry Bud, but he could use the online translator in the first place and save us the hassle.

Which he just did (I think). Thank you!


----------



## Katie88

m-i-c-k-e-y said:


> Sorry Bud, but he could use the online translator in the first place and save us the hassle.
> 
> Which he just did (I think). Thank you!





m-i-c-k-e-y said:


> Sorry Bud, but he could use the online translator in the first place and save us the hassle.
> 
> Which he just did (I think). Thank you!



It never ceases to amaze (and embarrass) me how, not withstanding the fact English is only the 3rd most spoken language in the world, many of it’s native speakers have the arrogance to rebuke others when they don’t automatically express themselves in English.

I’ve never found this to be the case with Chinese or Spanish speakers.


----------



## m-i-c-k-e-y

Forum rules...

"The language of Head-Fi is English. Please do not post in other languages"

 https://www.head-fi.org/articles/posting-guidelines.14048/


----------



## Katie88

m-i-c-k-e-y said:


> Forum rules...
> 
> "The language of Head-Fi is English. Please do not post in other languages"
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/articles/posting-guidelines.14048/




I stand corrected


----------



## Haris Javed

iFi audio said:


> Hi tonyo442
> 
> For the iDSD Pro and iCAN Pro we use circuitry that keeps a constant feedback factor with varying gain so for the same output voltage and load adjusting effectively changes only the volume control position.
> 
> ...




Hi IFI team, I am pretty sure that running the unit high gain vs low gain will introduce some signal distortion (and higher snr), regardless of the op-amp used - how much of that will be audible? I am not sure, someone with an oscilloscope can measure the distortion. You probably need op - amp data sheet for the IFI unit in question


----------



## GHoldridge

Haris Javed said:


> Hi IFI team, I am pretty sure that running the unit high gain vs low gain will introduce some signal distortion (and higher snr), regardless of the op-amp used - how much of that will be audible? I am not sure, someone with an oscilloscope can measure the distortion. You probably need op - amp data sheet for the IFI unit in question


I don’t believe they are using an op amp or even a discreet op amp. I seem to remember them referencing some classic pro audio gear that they modeled the circuit after.


----------



## tonyo442

[QUOTE = "Haris Javed, poste: 14078074, membre: 435351"] Salut IFI équipe, je suis assez sûr que l'exécution de l'unité gain élevé vs faible gain introduira une distorsion du signal (et plus élevé snr), quel que soit l'ampli op utilisé - combien de cela sera audible? Je ne suis pas sûr, quelqu'un avec un oscilloscope peut mesurer la distorsion. Vous avez probablement besoin d 'une fiche de données d' amplificateur opérationnel pour l 'unité IFI en question [/ QUOT
Re hello, well on that there should be more distortion on the position + 18 db,


----------



## Franatic

https://www.stereophile.com/content/ifi-idsd-mini-dac
Over four year ago!! 

On Mon Dieu!! Could it be released!! I gave up hope and stopped following this product a few years back. Checking back in I see an eventual release is almost a reality....maybe. Is there a recent stated price point for the ever elusive idsd pro?


----------



## tonyo442

bonjour, comme je le disais je possède déjà le iFI pro ican et je pense essayer le iDSD iFI, ce qui ne me rassure pas est le délai de garanti, trop courte, beaucoup de lecteurs HIFI jusqu'à 5 ou 10 ans de garanti comme Moon, peut etre que les responsables de iFI ne sont pas sur de la fiabilité de leur materiel, et comme ce ne sont que des cartes à intérieures en cas de panne, il n'y aurait rien à récupérer, merci pour les infos de la part de iFI pro,


bonjour, comme je l'ai dit j'ai déjà le iFI pro et je pense essayer l'iFI iDSD, ce qui ne rassure pas, c'est le temps garanti, trop court, beaucoup de HIFI jusqu'à 5 ou 10 ans garantis comme Moon, peut-être iFI les gérants ne sont pas sûrs de la fiabilité de leur matériel, et comme ce sont des cartes à l'intérieur en cas de panne, il n'y a rien à récupérer, merci pour l'' information de la part d'iFI pro, 
Tony,


----------



## iFi audio (Mar 5, 2018)

Franatic said:


> https://www.stereophile.com/content/ifi-idsd-mini-dac
> Over four year ago!!
> 
> On Mon Dieu!! Could it be released!! I gave up hope and stopped following this product a few years back. Checking back in I see an eventual release is almost a reality....maybe. Is there a recent stated price point for the ever elusive idsd pro?



Time flies fast, doesn't it  ?



GHoldridge said:


> I don’t believe they are using an op amp or even a discreet op amp. I seem to remember them referencing some classic pro audio gear that they modeled the circuit after.



No op-amps anywhere in sight in the main audio circuit of our Pro machines. These critters can do secondary jobs, i.e. servo. But again, audio circuitry doesn't have any.


----------



## Franatic

iFi audio said:


> Time flies fast, doesn't it
> 
> Yes, it does. I'll ask again, is there a projected price? As time flies, I believe the projected price flies up. It started under $1000, then I think it was $1500. Is there a recent projection? I own a half dozen iFi products, so i'm asking because I like your products and would consider the idsd pro..........at the right price.


----------



## iFi audio

Please feel free to take a look here:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/ifi-audio-pro-idsd-the-official-thread.869144/


----------



## Sev Bordas

iFi audio said:


> Please feel free to take a look here:
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/ifi-audio-pro-idsd-the-official-thread.869144/



Hello @iFi audio 

Have you posted photos of the back of the iDSD Pro?  The only photo Music Direct has is of the front, and the iDSD Pro has not yet appeared on the iFI web site.

Thanks


----------



## iFi audio

Sev Bordas said:


> Hello @iFi audio
> 
> Have you posted photos of the back of the iDSD Pro?  The only photo Music Direct has is of the front, and the iDSD Pro has not yet appeared on the iFI web site.
> 
> Thanks



Not yet, but it'll happen very soon.


----------



## frogmeat69

Sev Bordas said:


> Hello @iFi audio
> 
> Have you posted photos of the back of the iDSD Pro?  The only photo Music Direct has is of the front, and the iDSD Pro has not yet appeared on the iFI web site.
> 
> Thanks



 This photo is from Music Direct, it's the 3rd pic on their page for the iDSD Pro.


----------



## Sev Bordas

frogmeat69 said:


> This photo is from Music Direct, it's the 3rd pic on their page for the iDSD Pro.



Thanks for this!

Anyone care to speculate on what that sync source selector does?  Still no manual for the iDSD Pro on iFI's web site.


----------



## iFi audio (Mar 8, 2018)

Sev Bordas said:


> Thanks for this!
> 
> Anyone care to speculate on what that sync source selector does?  Still no manual for the iDSD Pro on iFI's web site.



We'll explain what's going on on Pro iDSD's rear very shortly.


----------



## iFi audio

*Folks, we have a major announcement.*

iFi audio has recently returned from a couple of outstanding audio shows – CanJam in New York, USA and Bristol Sound and Vision, UK.

As promised, audiences had the chance to audition the pre-production model of the new Pro iDSD. This gave us the invaluable opportunity to gather feedback from the end user, directly. 

We couldn’t miss out on the final chance to let our potential customers drive the Pro concept forward just one more time.

So, as is our want, we have taken the feedback on board and are tweaking the hardware and the software in response to these comments.

It seems that certain markets required the additional 2.5mm headphone socket and some the 4.4mm – so we’re doing both. Watch this space for more info on how and why!

Inevitably this will have an impact on the official launch date of both the Pro iDSD and the Pro iRack which we intend to launch together.

Skin says he needs more time (*until the end of May*) to implement these tweaks and will be able to give us a definite launch date nearer the time.


----------



## Katie88

Yawn! Deja vu
May then probably August then postpone again till 2019
Yawn yawn
Why wait until a week before the previously-one-hundredth-time-postponed-latest launch date to then postpone again. One thing about ifi is they really know how to laugh in the face of their customer base.


----------



## tonyo442

bonjour, décidément ifi pro donne l'impression d'être des débutants, il parle, ...... il parle, ...... tous les mois le je DSD nous avons une date et il est reporté au mois ... pourquoi, ......... c'est un dac avant tout, pas un ampli casque, .....


bonjour, définitivement ifi pro donne l'impression d'être des débutants, il parle, ...... il parle, ...... tous les mois le i DSD nous donne une date et il est reporté au mois d'après, et s'il y aura des options  supplémentaires, le prix augmentera donc encore, ....... et si certains n'utilisent pas ces options, ils devront payer un IDSD plus cher, .... ... pourquoi,. ........ c'est un dac avant tout, pas un ampli casque, ...........


----------



## Katie88 (Mar 10, 2018)

tonyo442 said:


> bonjour, décidément ifi pro donne l'impression d'être des débutants, il parle, ...... il parle, ...... tous les mois le je DSD nous avons une date et il est reporté au mois ... pourquoi, ......... c'est un dac avant tout, pas un ampli casque, .....
> 
> 
> bonjour, définitivement ifi pro donne l'impression d'être des débutants, il parle, ...... il parle, ...... tous les mois le i DSD nous donne une date et il est reporté au mois d'après, et s'il y aura des options  supplémentaires, le prix augmentera donc encore, ....... et si certains n'utilisent pas ces options, ils devront payer un IDSD plus cher, .... ... pourquoi,. ........ c'est un dac avant tout, pas un ampli casque, ...........



Translation:
hello, ifi pro definitely gives the impression of being beginners, he speaks, ...... he speaks, ...... every month the i DSD gives us a date and it is postponed to the next month, and if there will be additional options, the price will increase again too, ....... and if some of us do not use these options, we will have to pay for a more expensive IDSD, .... . Why,. ........ it's a dac foremost, not a headphone amp, ...........


----------



## aterville

iFi audio said:


> *Folks, we have a major announcement.*
> 
> iFi audio has recently returned from a couple of outstanding audio shows – CanJam in New York, USA and Bristol Sound and Vision, UK.
> 
> ...



Order cancelled so long b/s ... welcome to the age of customer


----------



## Khragon

iFi audio said:


> *Folks, we have a major announcement.*
> 
> iFi audio has recently returned from a couple of outstanding audio shows – CanJam in New York, USA and Bristol Sound and Vision, UK.
> 
> ...



I thought this is a DAC? Why all these worries about a headphone jack? For balance output just put in a 4 pin XLR.  Every one have adapters from 4 pin xlr to what ever connector the need for their headphones already. Not that hard.


----------



## tonyo442

[QUOTE = "Khragon, poste: 14095874, membre: 329458"] Je pensais que c'est un CAD? Pourquoi toutes ces inquiétudes à propos d'une prise casque? Pour la sortie d'équilibre il suffit de mettre dans un XLR 4 broches. Chacun a des adaptateurs de 4 broches xlr à n'importe quel connecteur le besoin de leurs écouteurs déjà. Pas si difficile. [/ QUOTE]
exactement, sur un XLR 4 broches tout est possible,.......


----------



## dolstein

Khragon said:


> I thought this is a DAC? Why all these worries about a headphone jack? For balance output just put in a 4 pin XLR.  Every one have adapters from 4 pin xlr to what ever connector the need for their headphones already. Not that hard.



I couldn't agree more.  Personally, I never thought it was necessary to include a headphone amp in the DAC at all.  It just adds to the cost of the unit, and these features become redundant once you purchase the Pro iCan, as many will.  But if you're going to include a balanced headphone output in the DAC, just use a 4pin XLR.  Remember - this is a DESKTOP unit.  If there isn' enough room on the faceplace for both a 6.5mm single ended and a 4pin XLR, just include a the 4pin XLR, and throw in an adapter cable for single ended cables.


----------



## WNBC

Wow, I'm sure this DAC will be amazing but I wonder if the delay is worth the additional headphone inputs.  As mentioned, a high percentage of end users will be supplying their own external amp.  Could this have been done in an updated version down the road with a beefy amp model for people looking for an all-in-one solution?  They are going to re-machine the face plates of all the production models?  I assume this DAC was already deep in production.  

Any elaboration on the software tweaks suggested at CanJAM and elsewhere?  Too hard to do in a firmware update done by end users?  I guess the answer will be yes.

I wasn't quite in the market for a new DAC but I definitely like iFi products so I can understand the disappointment in what seems to be the last missing major component of the iFi lineup, a reference level DAC.

Good luck guys in your wait.  Hopefully at the very least they are making sufficient numbers of these so that once it is released you won't have to be on a waiting list to get one.


----------



## gerb0075

iFi audio said:


> *Folks, we have a major announcement.*
> 
> iFi audio has recently returned from a couple of outstanding audio shows – CanJam in New York, USA and Bristol Sound and Vision, UK.
> 
> ...



Will purchasers have the option to purchase either version, depending on their individual needs/preferences?  Or, will you limit distribution to only one version per market?  

Finally, speaking for the entire iFI enthusiast community, can you PLEASE release the version with the 2.5mm socket on 3/15/18 as most recently promised?!!  You must have a supply of these units ready as their release was FINALLY supposed to take place this week.


----------



## iFi audio (Mar 12, 2018)

Katie88 said:


> One thing about ifi is they really know how to laugh in the face of their customer base.



That's not our intention at all. We do what we have to.



WNBC said:


> Wow, I'm sure this DAC will be amazing but I wonder if the delay is worth the additional headphone inputs.  As mentioned, a high percentage of end users will be supplying their own external amp.  Could this have been done in an updated version down the road with a beefy amp model for people looking for an all-in-one solution?  They are going to re-machine the face plates of all the production models?  I assume this DAC was already deep in production.



Pro iDSD is in a very advanced state of production and that's why we've initially set the release date for it. But since the product visited many shows, additional feedback was gathered in the process and we're able to address some needs, the decission was made to delay the product a bit more and make everyone happy.

Yes, many people will use an external headphone amp with Pro iDSD, yet there are many individuals on a lookout for a one box solution that literally does 'it all' and we want to satisfy such crowd as well.



WNBC said:


> Any elaboration on the software tweaks suggested at CanJAM and elsewhere?  Too hard to do in a firmware update done by end users?  I guess the answer will be yes.



Our goal is to deliver as complete product as possible. Firmware updates might happen in the future, but we want to make the first one as good as possible.



WNBC said:


> Good luck guys in your wait.  Hopefully at the very least they are making sufficient numbers of these so that once it is released you won't have to be on a waiting list to get one.



Thank you!



gerb0075 said:


> Will purchasers have the option to purchase either version, depending on their individual needs/preferences?  Or, will you limit distribution to only one version per market?



We'll let people here know how this will look like shortly.



gerb0075 said:


> Finally, speaking for the entire iFI enthusiast community, can you PLEASE release the version with the 2.5mm socket on 3/15/18 as most recently promised?!!  You must have a supply of these units ready as their release was FINALLY supposed to take place this week.



That's a very reasonable conclusion. But the global launch will involve both versions at the same time, sorry.


----------



## Roscoeiii

@iFi audio  y'all are doing great. Your communication is generally excellent and most of us understand that you may not want to reveal everything at once. Y'all are responsive to HeadFi input which is also a huge plus in my book. And then there is the stunning value that you represent in terms of the performance you provide. The iDSD Micro BL is just a stunning achievement for the price. Keep up the great work!


----------



## EVOLVIST

I'm sure this unit will be more than worth the wait. I have no doubt in my mind. iFi always delivers. This time will be no different.

So, some of you guys might want to consider lightning up a little. Just consider it. iFi puts themselves out in the community, on these message boards, because they believe in great customer service and interaction with their clients. This obviously means that iFi is also aware that they could potentially taking a pounding from frustrated consumers, now and again. That does not mean, however, that they deserve to take a beating for their efforts.


----------



## iFi audio

Roscoeiii said:


> @iFi audio  y'all are doing great. Your communication is generally excellent and most of us understand that you may not want to reveal everything at once. Y'all are responsive to HeadFi input which is also a huge plus in my book. And then there is the stunning value that you represent in terms of the performance you provide. The iDSD Micro BL is just a stunning achievement for the price. Keep up the great work!



Thanks!



EVOLVIST said:


> I'm sure this unit will be more than worth the wait. I have no doubt in my mind. iFi always delivers. This time will be no different.
> 
> So, some of you guys might want to consider lightning up a little. Just consider it. iFi puts themselves out in the community, on these message boards, because they believe in great customer service and interaction with their clients. This obviously means that iFi is also aware that they could potentially taking a pounding from frustrated consumers, now and again. That does not mean, however, that they deserve to take a beating for their efforts.



We do understand why good people here get frustrated and we resonate with this, we really do. But at times we have to do what we have to do, at times the lesser evil is the only way to go if the greater good is the goal.


----------



## WNBC

I’m sure it was a tough decision to halt production.  I will definitely be interested in the final product and reviews.  I am currently not looking for a DAC, but if it turns out that the Pro checks all the right boxes I could see the appeal of a top tier all-in-one unit.  In the end, better to do it right the first time rather than have multiple revisions.


----------



## bluesaint

As many has mentioned, and I'll repeat it here. This is a desktop unit, and supposedly a "pro" unit. Every single audiophile at this level has a xlr4 to whatever. Tell me why not just 4 pin xlr? Just do that and no 2.5mm or 3.5mm, or 6.3mm.


----------



## Katie88

iFi audio said:


> Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> We do understand why good people here get frustrated and we resonate with this, we really do. But at times we have to do what we have to do, at times the lesser evil is the only way to go if the greater good is the goal.



‘Greater good’ - ‘lesser evil’ - ‘a man’s gotta do what a man’s gotta do’ etc. is all very well, but why do you give release dates out in the first place? I mean this has been going on for years - literally! Broken promise after broken promise. It’s really unprofessional and disappointing whichever way you look at it.


----------



## iFi audio

WNBC said:


> I’m sure it was a tough decision to halt production.  I will definitely be interested in the final product and reviews.  I am currently not looking for a DAC, but if it turns out that the Pro checks all the right boxes I could see the appeal of a top tier all-in-one unit.  In the end, better to do it right the first time rather than have multiple revisions.



Many thanks WNBC for your lovely comment and your understanding.

Best wishes

iFi audio team


----------



## iFi audio

bluesaint said:


> As many has mentioned, and I'll repeat it here. This is a desktop unit, and supposedly a "pro" unit. Every single audiophile at this level has a xlr4 to whatever. Tell me why not just 4 pin xlr? Just do that and no 2.5mm or 3.5mm, or 6.3mm.





bluesaint said:


> As many has mentioned, and I'll repeat it here. This is a desktop unit, and supposedly a "pro" unit. Every single audiophile at this level has a xlr4 to whatever. Tell me why not just 4 pin xlr? Just do that and no 2.5mm or 3.5mm, or 6.3mm.




Hi bluesaint

The Pro iCAN and Pro iESL have a wealth of inputs. The Pro DSD was not initially designed to have balanced connections but with user comments, we did that. We can but try our utmost!

Many thanks

iFi audio team


----------



## iFi audio

Katie88 said:


> ‘Greater good’ - ‘lesser evil’ - ‘a man’s gotta do what a man’s gotta do’ etc. is all very well, but why do you give release dates out in the first place? I mean this has been going on for years - literally! Broken promise after broken promise. It’s really unprofessional and disappointing whichever way you look at it.



Hi Katie88

I am so sorry that you are disappointed.

We decided to offer our customers more choices from the feedback that we received from them. We want to keep all of customers happy.

Please bear with us a little longer. It is worth the wait.

Many thanks for your understanding.

iFi audio team


----------



## all300b

Hey,

I don't mind - have been waiting years for this to come out anyway.  But what is the iRack pro and does it look good as well as perform well?  Will need something nice to rest the iDSD pro on.


----------



## kinagiyuki (Mar 13, 2018)

iFi audio said:


> Hi Katie88
> 
> I am so sorry that you are disappointed.
> 
> ...


Actually, it is a simple question.
What will you do if your customers are still giving feedback after you modified your products? Will you still want to keep them happy and modify your products again and again and stuck in this loop? Nothing in the world is perfection and it is not an excuse for lying to your supporters. One delay is forgivable but more than that, it isn't.

Nevertheless, I am owning the Pro iCan and still hope the Pro iDSD will be a great product, but its price seems to be a little bit unaffordable to me.


----------



## tonyo442

kinagiyuki said:


> Actually, it is a simple question.
> What will you do if your customers are still giving feedback after you modified your products? Will you still want to keep them happy and modify your products again and again and stuck in this loop? Nothing in the world is perfection and it is not an excuse for lying to your supporters. One delay is forgivable but more than that, it isn't.
> 
> Nevertheless, I am owning the Pro iCan and still hope the Pro iDSD will be a great product, but its price seems to be a little bit unaffordable to me.


do not worry, today March 14, 2018, no apparatus is available, tomorrow March 15, 2018 we will have a nice surprise, equipment will be delivered, thanks to ifi pro, .......


----------



## iFi audio

kinagiyuki said:


> Actually, it is a simple question.
> What will you do if your customers are still giving feedback after you modified your products? Will you still want to keep them happy and modify your products again and again and stuck in this loop? Nothing in the world is perfection and it is not an excuse for lying to your supporters. One delay is forgivable but more than that, it isn't.
> 
> Nevertheless, I am owning the Pro iCan and still hope the Pro iDSD will be a great product, but its price seems to be a little bit unaffordable to me.



Hi kinagiyuki

Thank you for your comments. The idea for the Pro iDSD was driven by our customers from the word go. We felt in this instance it was fair to take on all worthwhile feedback while we could. Obviously, this has to come to an end as no project is never ending and as stated, we hope to deliver the Pro to you as soon as possible. 

Many thanks for your understanding.

Best wishes

iFi audio team


----------



## iFi audio

all300b said:


> Hey,
> 
> I don't mind - have been waiting years for this to come out anyway.  But what is the iRack pro and does it look good as well as perform well?  Will need something nice to rest the iDSD pro on.




Hi all300b

The Pro iRack has been designed from the ground up to perfectly support the iFi Pro series.

Modular in construction, it can grow with your collection. 

Best wishes

iFi audio team


----------



## Dr. Udo Brömme

iFi audio said:


> Skin says he needs more time (*until the end of May*) to implement these tweaks and will be able to give us a definite launch date nearer the time.



So the wishlist is open again? Then please add a xlr 4-pin Output on the front.

Then this neat little box is going do replace may dac/amp stack.


----------



## iFi audio

Dr. Udo Brömme said:


> So the wishlist is open again?



We have taken all our customer's feedback already and the final product is nearly ready.

Hence now, the wishlist is closed.


----------



## iFi audio

Folks, it's that time of a year, you know... eggs and all that jazz. Hence please allow us to leave our critter here:





... aaaaand that's it! Right? RIGHT?!?

Well, nope.

We have something *very special *to share with you tomorrow. Very, very special.

Stay tuned!


----------



## alphanumerix1

oh wow can i be! it's ready to be released?


----------



## iFi audio (Mar 30, 2018)

*Extra Ordinary MQA Easter Egg*







*Introduction*

With Easter just around the corner, iFi audio has delivered an eagerly anticipated upgrade option as a very special Easter gift.

iFi first introduced MQA into its product mix with the nano iDSD Black Label in November 2017. Since then, iFi customers across the globe have been asking when this option would be available in other iFi products. The good news is that the latest improvements to the nano Black Label firmware version 5.30, ‘Cookies & Cream’, does just that.

*Mqa for all*

This latest firmware flavour not only adds the latest scoop to the nano iDSD Black Label sundae but it also dishes out MQA (Master Quality Authenticated) audio to the full range* of iFi audio products going back to 2013!






This ‘legacy’ update means that you can now download the MQA upgrade (PC and Mac) straight from the Support section of iFi’s website at no extra cost.

*Mqa optimised*

Firmware version 5.30 will optimise your device for MQA and can handle up to DSD256 and PCM384. Enjoy the MQA magic like never before.



*And Finally…*

None of the above would have been possible without the MQA software engineers who worked tirelessly alongside the iFi software team to make this unique opportunity happen. Thank you.

Go to https://ifi-audio.com/audio_blog/mqa-firmware/ to enjoy your upgrade.

This firmware provides MQA rendering as this is the ideal solution for portable products and those with power considerations. This means the workload is shared between the host (the computer) and the client (the DAC). The listener will still enjoy full MQA experience.

For more information on MQA, go to http://www.mqa.co.uk/customer/how-it-works

Legacy

*The only exception is the original iDAC.


----------



## Slim1970

iFi audio said:


> *Extra Ordinary MQA Easter Egg*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



iFi you guys are awesome! I love your gear and keep the updates coming!


----------



## iFi audio

Slim1970 said:


> iFi you guys are awesome! I love your gear and keep the updates coming!



Thank you, we will!


----------



## iFi audio

*Easter ‘Bug Bounty’ Hunt.
Hunt 'em, wherever they are...
*

*
Introduction*

Our just announced firmware v5.30 is MQA capable and in one fell swoop, elevates legacy iFi products* with MQA capability for even more sonic enjoyment.

The MQA integration was a little difficult. It involved:

Totally replacing the customised core code
Re-apply tuning/core loading and
Further fine tuning the firmware for even more precise allocated resource use in order to allow us to support MQA _and_ 384kHz.

To bring all this to fruition required the combined efforts of the MQA and iFi software developers or a total of +1,000 programming hours to deliver firmware v5.30 (excluding testing on all iFi legacy units).

Notwithstanding, there _may_ still be one or two software bugs we have not quashed – hence we would like to involve you, the customer – in the Easter Bug Hunt.

*More details are to be found in this thread:*

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/ifi-audio-easter-‘bug-bounty’-hunt.876057/


----------



## frogmeat69

With the output mode, what is the difference gonna be between pro and hi-fi? And, will we be able to use both RCA and XLR at the same time, or is there a setting we will need to change, and will that be the switch in back or from the front panel?


----------



## frogmeat69

iFi audio said:


> We'll explain what's going on on Pro iDSD's rear very shortly.


Very shortly has gotten quite long, lol. Anything soon? Hasn't been much lately.


----------



## iFi audio

frogmeat69 said:


> Very shortly has gotten quite long, lol. Anything soon? Hasn't been much lately.



True, xDSD was introduced first. Rest assured we haven't forgotten about Pro iDSD. Not at all.


----------



## iFi audio (May 2, 2018)

frogmeat69 said:


> With the output mode, what is the difference gonna be between pro and hi-fi?



HiFi uses a 0dBFS reference level of 4V balanced / 2V single-ended, Pro uses a reference level of +20dBu balanced / +12dBV single-ended.



frogmeat69 said:


> And, will we be able to use both RCA and XLR at the same time



Yes.



frogmeat69 said:


> will that be the switch in back or from the front panel?



With 0dB gain, the 0dBFS headphone output level is 1.13V balanced and 0.56V single-ended.

With 9dB gain, the 0dBFS headphone output level is 3.2V balanced and 1.6V single-ended.

With 18dB gain, the 0dBFS headphone output level is 9V balanced and 4.5V single-ended.

When a headphone is connected, the line outs are muted.


----------



## Gontrand68 (May 4, 2018)

Hi guys 

I have a question about the Ifi Audio Pro iDSD... i gonna get it soon when it will be on the market... I'd like to connect it to my PC... Does it work with a USB-A/USB-B cable ? I saw a picture of the rear of the device but it's difficult to say... Can you please confirm ? Because i already have such cable, an expensive one and i don't want to buy an other one...

Thank for your answers


----------



## iFi audio

Gontrand68 said:


> Hi guys
> 
> I have a question about the Ifi Audio Pro iDSD... i gonna get it soon when it will be on the market... I'd like to connect it to my PC... Does it work with a USB-A/USB-B ? cable I saw a picture of the rear of the device but it's difficult to say... Can you please confirm ? Because i already have such cable, an expensive one and i don't want to buy an other one...
> 
> Thank for your answers



To connect Pro iDSD with a PC, all you need is a regular USB type B cable.


----------



## Gontrand68

iFi audio said:


> To connect Pro iDSD with a PC, all you need is a regular USB type B cable.



Thank you 

An other question if you please... i have a Audeze LC-D 2 as a headphone (70 ohms)... i'm a little bit scared about the volume... will i have enough power with the Pro idsd ? because i now have a Oppo HA-1 and the volume with my headphone is rather low... 

What do you think ?


----------



## frogmeat69

To get the most out of the Oppo you need to use a 4 pin XLR balanced cable for your LCD-2's, seems like twice the output of single ended.


----------



## Gontrand68

frogmeat69 said:


> To get the most out of the Oppo you need to use a 4 pin XLR balanced cable for your LCD-2's, seems like twice the output of single ended.


----------



## Gontrand68

can you please give me a picture or a link of that cable ? i don't see... and i think it's expensive...???


----------



## elira

Gontrand68 said:


> can you please give me a picture or a link of that cable ? i don't see... and i think it's expensive...???



This is good and not that expensive:
https://periaptcables.com/collections/frontpage/products/professional-xlr-pro-xlr

This is the official
https://www.audeze.com/products/accessories/lcd-balanced-cable


----------



## Gontrand68

thank guy 

are you sure i will gain more volume with your cable ? it seems like a little bit weird to me... it's important cause the cable is much cheaper than the Ifi Audio Pro... i don't want to make a mistake...

are you really sure ?


----------



## technobear

Gontrand68 said:


> thank guy
> 
> are you sure i will gain more volume with your cable ? it seems like a little bit weird to me... it's important cause the cable is much cheaper than the Ifi Audio Pro... i don't want to make a mistake...
> 
> are you really sure ?


To quote from the Oppo website:



> The balanced headphone output provides twice the voltage and four times the power of the single-ended output, enabling the HA-1 to drive the most power hungry headphones.



https://www.oppodigital.com/headphone-amplifier-ha-1/


----------



## frogmeat69

Gontrand68 said:


> thank guy
> 
> are you sure i will gain more volume with your cable ? it seems like a little bit weird to me... it's important cause the cable is much cheaper than the Ifi Audio Pro... i don't want to make a mistake...
> 
> are you really sure ?


The balanced output is much beefier than the 1/4", about 6db from what I remember reading. I know when I owned it I had no problems driving my LCD-2 balanced, but wanting a separate amp and DAC module, along with upgraditis biting me, I bought the iCan Pro.


----------



## Gontrand68

ok my friends... i didn't know this and i'm very interested... 

but i'm from Belgium and i have no credit card... i know i ask you a lot but would be kind enough to link that cable from an European site country ? i don't find anything that suits me... i can only paid with bank transfer...


----------



## iFi audio

Gontrand68 said:


> Thank you
> 
> An other question if you please... i have a Audeze LC-D 2 as a headphone (70 ohms)... i'm a little bit scared about the volume... will i have enough power with the Pro idsd ? because i now have a Oppo HA-1 and the volume with my headphone is rather low...
> 
> What do you think ?



Pro iDSD will drive these with ease, no worries.


----------



## Gontrand68

I'm annoyed guys... i only find that cable (balanced for audeze headphone) to pay with credit card or paypal... i don't have these... i only pay with bank transfer...

please give me a link that would suits me


----------



## frogmeat69

Gontrand68 said:


> I'm annoyed guys... i only find that cable (balanced for audeze headphone) to pay with credit card or paypal... i don't have these... i only pay with bank transfer...
> 
> please give me a link that would suits me


Can't you have paypal draw from your bank account?


----------



## bimmer100

frogmeat69 said:


> Can't you have paypal draw from your bank account?


That’s what I was thinking. PayPal is super easy to use, let alone move the purchase protection and security of it, and surprised some people won’t give it a try. 
I might spend less money if I didn’t have PayPal though... it makes everything so simple


----------



## Gontrand68

i will try tomorow to make phone calls to retailers from my country... i don't like paypal...


----------



## iFi audio

Soon.


----------



## alphanumerix1

iFi audio said:


> Soon.



Oh god that looks incredible


----------



## MaceHane2

iFi audio said:


> Soon.



Please tell me you have a source for that incredible wall-mounted headphone rack?

It answers all of my needs for how to store & display my headphones to their best.

Please!?


----------



## Fastnbulbous

It appears to simply be a coat rack. Not exactly ideal for some of the more expensive headphones if the headbands could get pulled out of shape.


----------



## iFi audio

Fastnbulbous said:


> It appears to simply be a coat rack. Not exactly ideal for some of the more expensive headphones if the headbands could get pulled out of shape.



It does the job though


----------



## Khragon

I hope the rack is wider since the power button looks like will be very hard to operate.


----------



## iFi audio

Folks, good news. Pro iDSD launch date is:

*The 31st of May 2018*

Yay!


----------



## alphanumerix1

iFi audio said:


> Folks, good news. Pro iDSD launch date is:
> 
> *The 31st of May 2018*
> 
> Yay!



WOW it's happening! Expectations are very high I'm sure ifi took this time to release the best product they can.


----------



## iFi audio

alphanumerix1 said:


> WOW it's happening! Expectations are very high I'm sure ifi took this time to release the best product they can.



It is indeed.


----------



## iFi audio

In the meantime, Munich's High End 2018 is in the past, we were there and there was a chancce to listen to the full Pro stack there (Pro iDSD, iCAN and iESL) and our upcoming all in one no-compromise solution. If you were there, please share with us your impressions!


----------



## gr8soundz

iFi audio said:


>



Isn't that the next Retro series?


----------



## iFi audio

gr8soundz said:


> Isn't that the next Retro series?



Nope, that's something far more advanced.


----------



## ufospls2

iFi audio said:


> In the meantime, Munich's High End 2018 is in the past, we were there and there was a chancce to listen to the full Pro stack there (Pro iDSD, iCAN and iESL) and our upcoming all in one no-compromise solution. If you were there, please share with us your impressions!



Is the upcomming all in one a headphone based solution, or speakers? Or both?


----------



## iFi audio

ufospls2 said:


> Is the upcomming all in one a headphone based solution, or speakers? Or both?



Too early to give any details, but it's a spekaer above all else.


----------



## iFi audio

Folks, if you're interested in Pro iDSD's rear, feel free to take a look here:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/ifi-audio-pro-idsd-the-official-thread.869144/page-9


----------



## alphanumerix1

Sorry If this has been answered but dac chips are being used in the idsd pro?

Burrbrown is mentioned but which one? 1793?


----------



## Gontrand68

Tell me guys, does it exist a test for the Ifi audio pro idsd ? just to have an idea ?


----------



## iFi audio

Gontrand68 said:


> Tell me guys, does it exist a test for the Ifi audio pro idsd ? just to have an idea ?



Are you asking about any Pro iDSD review already published?


----------



## Gontrand68

no, i'm looking for a test (sorry for my english) compare for example to ifi micro idsd...


----------



## Gontrand68

cause i'll get a pro audio soon and i'd like to compare...


----------



## Gontrand68

and, please where is the test ?


----------



## Gontrand68

is the ifi micro idsd bl better than the pro audio ?


----------



## Gontrand68

i will tell the difference when i'll get my audio pro... if i you not may say so...


----------



## Gontrand68

Gontrand68 said:


> i will tell the difference when i'll get my audio pro... if you not may say so...


----------



## iFi audio (Jun 6, 2018)

Gontrand68 said:


> no, i'm looking for a test (sorry for my english) compare for example to ifi micro idsd...



We'd appreciate if you could edit one post and add any additional comment in there instead of spamming several posts one after another. Thanks!

And secondly, no such test as Pro iDSD vs micro iDSD BL exists, at least we haven't seen one yet. For now one English Pro iDSD review you can find here: http://www.highfidelity.pl/@main-828&lang=en


----------



## Gontrand68 (Jun 6, 2018)

sorry for disturbing...

just show me a real test... dude...


----------



## Dr. Manhattan (Jun 7, 2018)

TRIFECTA!!!


----------



## aterville

48 hours and the iDSD pro is dead ... protective mode whistles so frustrating 
ticket open will ask to be reimbursed this is definitely not serious


----------



## alphanumerix1

aterville said:


> 48 hours and the iDSD pro is dead ... protective mode whistles so frustrating
> ticket open will ask to be reimbursed this is definitely not serious



sorry to hear that, Damn shame.


----------



## aterville

@IFIAUDIO and anyone 
Hi guys any simple manipulation/process to get out the protective mode ?
Otherwise it s back to the reseller and "lost in space" for weeks
Thanks for your help


----------



## aterville

This is a joke I opened a ticket 8 days ago and the only answer is "If this noise is present and logo is red it suggests there may be excessive DC and its triggered protection." Captain obvious kind of answer.
I have a great reseller we tried to with another iPower Plus from an iCan pro same result.

This is bad customer experience to stay polite

Guys when a € 3000 product is dead after 48 hours you replace it asap


----------



## tonyo442

what is surprising is not the fact that a device has a breakdown or a problem, which is most surprising is the lack of reaction of the leaders of ifi pro, nothing has ever been said or done to reassure customers or future buyers, I was impatient to try the pro iDSD, but in front of this lack of reaction, I think I'm heading to another brand, ......


----------



## iFi audio (Jun 14, 2018)

aterville said:


> This is a joke I opened a ticket 8 days ago and the only answer is "If this noise is present and logo is red it suggests there may be excessive DC and its triggered protection." Captain obvious kind of answer.
> I have a great reseller we tried to with another iPower Plus from an iCan pro same result.
> 
> This is bad customer experience to stay polite
> ...





tonyo442 said:


> what is surprising is not the fact that a device has a breakdown or a problem, which is most surprising is the lack of reaction of the leaders of ifi pro, nothing has ever been said or done to reassure customers or future buyers, I was impatient to try the pro iDSD, but in front of this lack of reaction, I think I'm heading to another brand, ......



Guys, we know what's up in here. 

@aterville our Alix is working on your issue on our support platform as that's the best way to get help. We'll get your case sorted shortly.


----------



## aterville

The last answer from the so called support is " Please bear with us whilst we try to handle your case, the iDSD Pro is a new product so any fault is fresh to us."
I love beta testing product but not by paying € 3000 .
So anyone thinking buying iDSD Pro be advised it's all about trying and discovering fault iFi audio should have done when developing the product.

Regarding compensation it s how high you can jump.

worst user experience ever ... really pathetic as the product is just mind blowing


----------



## Currawong

My initial impressions.


----------



## GHoldridge

Well it’s not uncommon for newly developed products to have faulty units. In my experience ifi audios customer service was great when I was dealing with an issue and made sure I was happy with the solution.


----------



## Katie88

GHoldridge said:


> Well it’s not uncommon for newly developed products to have faulty units. In my experience ifi audios customer service was great when I was dealing with an issue and made sure I was happy with the solution.



That’s my experience too. Good after sales care.


----------



## iFi audio

aterville said:


> The last answer from the so called support is " Please bear with us whilst we try to handle your case, the iDSD Pro is a new product so any fault is fresh to us."



We understand your frustration, but let's keep it civilized. Our support staff gave you honest and polite reply and is doing their best to help and solve your issue. 



aterville said:


> So anyone thinking buying iDSD Pro be advised it's all about trying and discovering fault iFi audio should have done when developing the product.



There are far more people actually very happy with Pro iDSD than individuals who were able to find any issues with it. And if they've found and reported anything via our support platform, we're addressing each case as fast as we can. Pro iDSD is a complex product, it took us long time to develop and introduce to the market and still some things slipped under our radar. In such cases we're there for our customers as per usual.



aterville said:


> worst user experience ever ... really pathetic as the product is just mind blowing



We're sorry to hear that.


----------



## LoganRoss

Just curious. Why wasn't spatial/crossfeed included like on the ican pro? Also, how about the bass switch?

Finally, will this include Roon support?

Thanks!


----------



## elira

LoganRoss said:


> Just curious. Why wasn't spatial/crossfeed included like on the ican pro? Also, how about the bass switch?


Probably because the idea is that you pair it with the Pro iCAN.


----------



## LoganRoss

Thats a bummer given the quality of the headphone amp in the idsd. its like paying for the headphone amp twice.


----------



## Rob N

iFi audio said:


> We understand your frustration, but let's keep it civilized. Our support staff gave you honest and polite reply and is doing their best to help and solve your issue.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What percentage of problem units exist?


----------



## iFi audio (Jun 24, 2018)

elira said:


> Probably because the idea is that you pair it with the Pro iCAN.



Well, things we could move from Pro iCAN to Pro iDSD we moved.



LoganRoss said:


> Finally, will this include Roon support?



That's unlikely at the moment, but we look into this.



LoganRoss said:


> Thats a bummer given the quality of the headphone amp in the idsd. its like paying for the headphone amp twice.



With a quality DAC, Pro iCAN shows its teeth more clearly. It's better if one is after TOTL setup and wants to remain within our range.


----------



## notorious4163 (Jul 16, 2018)

Hi Guys,

New owner of iMicro DSD Black Label and boy is it amazing, however the imbalance/unbalance sound is just insanely annoying. I don’t usually listen to my music a lot at low/mid volumes however it is clearly imbalanced (left ear is louder).

Is there a solution to this problem? I’ve already returned and exchanged the product at Audio46 (NYC) and it’s just as bad.

Does it bother anyone else this much? Im on the verge of returning this amp because of this.


USING the Campfire Atlas, does anyone recommend the settings to fix this?

EDIT: Yes, I have fiddled and tried all the switches and various matches. The Eco Channel fixes the imbalance by a little (but does it take away from the power of the bass, treble, soundquality, etc?)

It would be perfect, but the Eco channel is almost loud enough for me, but not quite there yet which is why I'm frustrated


----------



## ufospls2

I've been using the IEmatch on the bottom of the device for this problem. Once I am above about 8:30-8:45 on the volume control the imbalance subsides. If you use the highest IEmatch setting, combined with the eco gain, you should be ok


----------



## iFi audio

Folks...

*CanJam London 2018!*

*

 *

...and two of our staff - Sarah and Hannah - will be there! The girls will be located with iFi audio hardware at the Electromod's booth! Please do visit the place, the iFi ladies don't bite!

And to all able to visit the event, enjoy!


----------



## Condocondor (Jul 22, 2018)

notorious4163 said:


> New owner of iMicro DSD Black Label and boy is it amazing, however the imbalance/unbalance sound is just insanely annoying. I don’t usually listen to my music a lot at low/mid volumes however it is clearly imbalanced (left ear is louder).



You should see what the new iFi iPurifier3 does for your Micro DSD Black Label!  I just bought one for my Micro BL and wow! $129 from Music Direct.  Bargain.  AND, if you want to go further add the iGalvanic3.0 to your stack.  Don't want to get off-topic but had to chime in.  Of course the iDSD Pro has all that built in.


----------



## iFi audio

Condocondor said:


> You should see what the new iFi iPurifier3 does for your Micro DSD Black Label!  I just bought one for my Micro BL and wow! $129 from Music Direct.  Bargain.  AND, if you want to go further add the iGalvanic3.0 to your stack.  Don't want to get off-topic but had to chime in.  Of course the iDSD Pro has all that built in.




Yup, it has all these goodies indeed. But yeah, iPurifier3.0 is quite special.


----------



## Baten

gr8soundz said:


> Yeah, the custom-order 4.4mm balanced version would be nice but even with all the other features I'm still not sure it's worth $1K more than the Holo Spring especially when it uses cheap off-the-shelf PCM1793 chips. No idea why iFi still refuses to use flagship PCM1792A chips (a favorite DS chip of mine) even in their Pro model?
> 
> My Soekris R2R DAC is USB-powered and has galvanic isolation built-in. I also use an iPurifier2 (will upgrade to the new iP3 shortly).
> 
> ...



Is it known if the iDSD Pro uses the top of the line burr brown 1792A chips, or not?


----------



## gr8soundz

Baten said:


> Is it known if the iDSD Pro uses the top of the line burr brown 1792A chips, or not?



According to this review 1793 chips are being used:

http://www.highfidelity.pl/@main-828&lang=en

_"The main PCB features the DAC - these are four PCM1793 chips operating in an unusual system, that allowed designers to bypass the limitations of the DACs regarding the upper sampling frequency. The company calls this mode of operation "interleaved". These systems separately convert PCM and DSD signals separately. Both first are go through digital filters. These were implemented in a powerful Crysopeia FPGA hidden under a large heat sink - this part is just like a microcomputer. The converter work in "voltage" mode, and the signal after them is filtered passively in third order filters."_


----------



## Baten (Jul 24, 2018)

gr8soundz said:


> According to this review 1793 chips are being used:
> 
> http://www.highfidelity.pl/@main-828&lang=en
> 
> _"The main PCB features the DAC - these are four PCM1793 chips operating in an unusual system, that allowed designers to bypass the limitations of the DACs regarding the upper sampling frequency. The company calls this mode of operation "interleaved". These systems separately convert PCM and DSD signals separately. Both first are go through digital filters. These were implemented in a powerful Crysopeia FPGA hidden under a large heat sink - this part is just like a microcomputer. The converter work in "voltage" mode, and the signal after them is filtered passively in third order filters."_



Thanks. I think the short of it is that they used 1793 because it is more "musical sounding" / for the "burr brown house sound" (0.001% THD on the 1793 vs 0.0004% THD on the 1792A) ?
That's really too bad for a true "top of the line" product which I thought they were going for.  (for the record I'm sure the technical performance would be great, but great could still be better, maybe).


----------



## iFi audio

Baten said:


> Thanks. I think the short of it is that they used 1793 because it is more "musical sounding" / for the "burr brown house sound" (0.001% THD on the 1793 vs 0.0004% THD on the 1792A) ?
> That's really too bad for a true "top of the line" product which I thought they were going for.  (for the record I'm sure the technical performance would be great, but great could still be better, maybe).



Pro iDSD is our TOTL product and that's what we aimed for from the start of this project. Also there's no point in focusing too much on chips and numbers associated with them. Far more important is what one does with them and Pro iDSD's d/a section is quite unusual.


----------



## tonyo442

[QUOTE = "iFi audio, post: 14379834, membre: 361812"] Pro iDSD est notre produit TOTL et c'est ce que nous visions depuis le début de ce projet. De plus, il est inutile de trop se concentrer sur les puces et les numéros qui leur sont associés. Ce qui est beaucoup plus important, c'est ce que l'on fait avec eux et la section d / a de Pro iDSD est assez inhabituelle.
hello, I do not think that chips are just numbers, of course that's what chips are very important, but some of these chips are able to roll back the background noise. is what will make the difference between one dac and another,

hello, I do not think that chips are just numbers, of course that's what chips are very important, but some of these chips are able to roll back the background noise. is what will make the difference between one dac and another,

I have a dac which has 4 dac per channel, TI PCMhirlec 5102, and the power supply will play an important role,

the choice of these chips on the ifi pro DSD makes me think, ..........


----------



## tonyo442

iFi audio said:


> Yup, it has all these goodies indeed. But yeah, iPurifier3.0 is quite special.


I have the i purify 2, for those who have the purify 3, the difference is it interesting, thank you


----------



## gordec

The battle of British Elites. The Pro iDSD is going up against the Qutest. Early impression of the iDSD is very good.


----------



## bluesaint

The Chord Elite's would be Dave or Hugo 2 not Qutest though.


----------



## gordec

bluesaint said:


> The Chord Elite's would be Dave or Hugo 2 not Qutest though.



As a pure desktop DAC, Qutest is better than the Hugo 2 with variable output, better inputs.


----------



## melons

Condocondor said:


> You should see what the new iFi iPurifier3 does for your Micro DSD Black Label!  I just bought one for my Micro BL and wow! $129 from Music Direct.  Bargain.  AND, if you want to go further add the iGalvanic3.0 to your stack.  Don't want to get off-topic but had to chime in.  Of course the iDSD Pro has all that built in.



I was under the impression that iPurifier3 etc only added an advantage if you were using mains (AC supply) or playing via a laptop?, but no SQ benefit if you're, for example running the iDSD BL via a DAP, both running on their battery?, is this correct?


----------



## gordec

Anyone tried to connect the iDSD to the their router via ethernet? I know it doesn't act as Roon endpoint, but does it work well as a server streaming using Muzo?


----------



## iFi audio

gordec said:


> The battle of British Elites. The Pro iDSD is going up against the Qutest. Early impression of the iDSD is very good.



Please share more if you can!


----------



## Condocondor

tonyo442 said:


> I have the i purify 2, for those who have the purify 3, the difference is it interesting, thank you



*See my iPurifier3 comparison thread:   https://www.head-fi.org/threads/ifi-audio-ipurifier3-0.883536/#post-14371438*


----------



## gordec (Jul 26, 2018)

Anyone knows if I can use regular USB 2.0 A-B cable for iDSD?

Edit: Nevermind. Tried one of the 2.0 cables. Works great.


----------



## iFi audio

Condocondor said:


> *See my iPurifier3 comparison thread:   https://www.head-fi.org/threads/ifi-audio-ipurifier3-0.883536/#post-14371438*


----------



## tonyo442

iFi audio said:


>





iFi audio said:


>


Hello, thank you for reading, I will order the ipurifier usb 3, thank you


----------



## gordec (Jul 29, 2018)

Is anyone able to hear any difference between the different filters? If I hear any difference it's very subtle. That also goes for DSD512 and DSD1024 remastering.

It's also interesting that the PCM upsampling fiters like Bitperfect+, Gibbs Transient Optimised, etc also work under the 2 DSD remastering modes. Is this the way it's intended?


----------



## Baten

gordec said:


> Is anyone able to hear any difference between the different filters? If I hear any difference it's very subtle. That also goes for DSD512 and DSD1024 remastering.
> 
> It's also interesting that the PCM upsampling fiters like Bitperfect+, Gibbs Transient Optimised, etc also work under the 2 DSD remastering modes. Is this the way it's intended?



I do wonder if the PCM filters can be applied in conjunction with the DSD remastering function.


----------



## gordec

In case someone wants to know how to get DLNA server to work with iDSD. I just got it to work and posted some instructions in the official sponsored thread. 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/ifi-audio-pro-idsd-the-official-thread.869144/page-20#post-14397242


----------



## gordec (Aug 2, 2018)

Baten said:


> I do wonder if the PCM filters can be applied in conjunction with the DSD remastering function.



If you upsample a nonDSD file to DSD512/1024, iDSD first oversamples to 705.4/768kHz. None of the filters applies in those 2 modes. You can turn the knob, and may appears that you are switching digital filters, but they are not doing anything.

If you play a native DSD file, iDSD will only play it in bitperfect mode. If you upsamples a native DSD file to DSD512/1024, there is no bitperfect mode because a digital filter has to be applied.


----------



## iFi audio

gordec said:


> In case someone wants to know how to get DLNA server to work with iDSD. I just got it to work and posted some instructions in the official sponsored thread.
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/ifi-audio-pro-idsd-the-official-thread.869144/page-20#post-14397242






gordec said:


> If you upsample a nonDSD file to DSD512/1024, iDSD first oversamples to 705.4/768kHz. None of the filters applies in those 2 modes. You can turn the knob, and may appears that you are switching digital filters, but they are not doing anything.
> 
> If you play a native DSD file, iDSD will only play it in bitperfect mode. If you upsamples a native DSD file to DSD512/1024, there is no bitperfect mode because a digital filter has to be applied.



 #2


----------



## tonyo442

hello, did some try USB 3.0 instead of 2.0,

USB 3.0 is much faster than USB 2.0, I did not find it useful to use ipurifier 2


----------



## Hunki Chunki

Hey @iFi audio , did you manage to go into detail about the filters? I see a post saying "*Stay tuned, coming up is Pro iDSD's digital filtering!"* but I can't seem to find it

thanks!


----------



## iFi audio

Hunki Chunki said:


> Hey @iFi audio , did you manage to go into detail about the filters? I see a post saying "*Stay tuned, coming up is Pro iDSD's digital filtering!"* but I can't seem to find it
> 
> thanks!



It's not published yet but it will in the upcoming days.


----------



## gordec

This may be a silly question, but the tube and tube+ modes, at which point does it affect the circuit pathway? I can hear clear differences in DAC only mode as I do not use the amp at all.


----------



## iFi audio

gordec said:


> but the tube and tube+ modes, at which point does it affect the circuit pathway?



After the d/a chip, passive lowpass and volume control if variable output/headphone out is selected (fixed output provides a 'hard bypass' of the volume control).

The input element of the line/headphone driver is selected to be either a cascoded J-Fet or the NOS GE Tube. 

The Tube+ mode alters the internal circuitry to reduce the amount of negative feedback around the tube to almost zero. 

This means that the tube's own harmonic (distortion) spectrum develops naturally, but measured distortion is relatively high. 

The audible effects of doing this are covered to some degree by Bob Katz's article originally published here:

https://www.innerfidelity.com/content/katzs-corner-episode-25-adventures-distortion



gordec said:


> I can hear clear differences in DAC only mode as I do not use the amp at all.



There is no separate 'amplifier' in our iDSD Pro. As it is required to drive 200 ohm loads to as much as 10V in professional use, this product's line driver stage is able to directly drive most headphones.

The circuit path is as follows:

DAC in voltage out mode
RLC 3rd order passive lowpass filter
(volume control - if used)
line-driver/headphone driver
line/headphone selector relay
output connector (XLR+RCA or headphone jacks)

The circuit path is entirely direct coupled, Class A (except when driving very low impedance headphones to very high power levels).

The signal routing (volume control bypass and selecting the signal to be routed to line-out or hp-out) uses signal relays (by Omron - Japan) with gold over silver contacts hermetically sealed in a chemically inert gas. 

To avoid using multiple relay contacts, the line/HP selection relays also function as 'mute' relays.

This makes for a signal-path as simple as possible to avoid signal degradation due to multiple unnecessary amplification circuits.


----------



## gordec

iFi audio said:


> After the d/a chip, passive lowpass and volume control if variable output/headphone out is selected (fixed output provides a 'hard bypass' of the volume control).
> 
> The input element of the line/headphone driver is selected to be either a cascoded J-Fet or the NOS GE Tube.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the reply. So you are saying I should hear a difference even in DAC only mode correct? That second part was too technical for me.


----------



## wadi

iFi audio said:


> The Tube+ mode alters the internal circuitry to reduce the amount of negative feedback around the tube to almost zero.



Is this also true for iCan Pro? In Tube+ mode is negative feedback almost zero?


----------



## iFi audio

wadi said:


> Is this also true for iCan Pro? In Tube+ mode is negative feedback almost zero?



That's correct.

Oh, one more thing, our new site is up!

http://ifi-audio.com


----------



## gordec

Dropped my review for the Pro iDSD. https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/ifi-audio-pro-idsd.23234/reviews


----------



## iFi audio

gordec said:


> Dropped my review for the Pro iDSD. https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/ifi-audio-pro-idsd.23234/reviews



That's a lovely piece to read, thanks and congrats!


----------



## Morimoriya 62

Hi guys 


Has anyone hd800s pair with pro idsd ?
How does comparison idsd black + Ican pro with pro idsd ?
I'm currently using this collection (idsd bl +pro ican)
But I'm not very satisfied .
Is it possible pro idsd Choose a better one?
Pro ican, of course, is broken, must be sent for warranty.


Regurds Mori


----------



## gordec

iFi, please help me clarify me on 2 things:
1. Does tube and tube+ circuit affect DAC only mode with the analogue outputs?
2. Is there any reason to use USB 3.0 cable over USB 2.0 as both work with the Pro iDSD?

Thx.


----------



## tonyo442 (Aug 12, 2018)

[QUOTE = "Morimoriya 62, post: 14413429, membre: 459669"] Salut les gars


Quelqu'un at-il un HD800 couplé avec pro idsd?
Comment la comparaison idsd noir + Ican pro avec pro idsd?
J'utilise actuellement cette collection (idsd bl + pro ican)
Mais je ne suis pas très satisfait.
Est-ce possible pro idsd Choisissez-en une meilleure?
Pro ican, bien sûr, est cassé, doit être envoyé pour garantie .: triportsad :: triportsad:


Regurds Mori [/ QUOTE]


----------



## tonyo442

tonyo442 said:


> [QUOTE = "Morimoriya 62, post: 14413429, membre: 459669"] Salut les gars
> 
> 
> Quelqu'un at-il un HD800 couplé avec pro idsd?
> ...


hello, thank you for knowing the problem of ii pro ican, thank you


----------



## Currawong

Morimoriya 62 said:


> Has anyone hd800s pair with pro idsd ?
> How does comparison idsd black + Ican pro with pro idsd ?
> I'm currently using this collection (idsd bl +pro ican)
> But I'm not very satisfied .
> ...



I reckon, get rid of the Pro iCan and iDSD BL and get the Pro iDSD.


----------



## iFi audio

Folks, awesome news!

*EISA* (the European Sound and Imaging Association) has awarded the xDSD as* the Best Portable DAC/Headphone Amplifier for 2018-2019.*

The official release is to be found here:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/ifi-audio-xdsd-the-official-thread.873787/page-56#post-14422901







 HAPPY!


----------



## flyte3333

iFi audio said:


> The circuit path is entirely direct coupled, Class A (except when driving very low impedance headphones to very high power levels).



Hi iFi, what is the circuit path with very low impedance headphones driven to high levels? 

Cheers


----------



## Currawong

Probably it goes into Class A/B like many other amps.


----------



## Hunki Chunki (Aug 17, 2018)

Would really like some info on the filters, the manual says

'Bit-Perfect'  No digital filtering is applied, one tap
'Bit-Perfect+'  No digital filtering is applied, one tap, SINC roll-oﬀ is corrected
'Gibbs Transient Optimised'  Minimum filtering, no pre-ringing, minimum post ringing, 32 taps
'Apodising'  Modest filtering, no pre-ringing, modest post ringing, 128 taps
'Transient Aligned' Max filtering, max pre-ringing, maximum post-ringing, 16,384 taps

Ringing? taps? what? ;/ What does it all mean in layman terms? Which should I set it to for what reason? hahaha


----------



## Currawong (Aug 18, 2018)

There's no simple way to explain it all. Digital-to-Analog conversion is complex.  I'll give you a very short summary. If you don't understand the basics of digital audio, you'll need to learn how regular PCM audio encodes analog waveforms at the very least.

A DAC has to re-construct the analog waveform using a number of samples taken of the waveform by the original Analog-to-Digital Converter (ADC). The samples are, more or less to a degree inaccurate as, as it is limited by the bit and sample rates, eg: 16/44.1 for "CD Quality". The DAC has to interpolate samples in between those taken to (reasonably) accurately reconstruct the analog signal. This is called "oversampling" (or "upsampling" sometimes). If you don't do this (ie: use the Pro iDSD's Bit-Perfect, or "Non-OverSampling"/NOS mode) you get a form of distortion that results in a loss of clarity. That is, how you perceive the soundstage will be smaller, and instruments will be less focussed.

Over the last couple of decades, there have been all sorts of arguments about how best to create a digital filter. Those arguments have included a focus on the "ringing" that you see around an impulse response sent to a DAC, even though impulse responses don't exist in music (they contain frequencies outside the sample rate, but people got hung up on this for a long while). That's what the GTO and Apodising filters are.  Now here is where it gets funky. Some people don't like the sound with the various filters (massive quagmire, don't ask) and so _prefer_ Bit Perfect (NOS) DACs. The particular DACs in the iDSD are sometimes used by people to build DIY non-oversampling DACs and are particularly good if NOS DACs are your thing.

However, with more recent advancements in the amount of computing power that can be put inside a DAC, it is possible to create much more accurate filters than are included with regular DAC (or filter) chips. That leaves us with the most technically accurate filter, the Transient Aligned, that uses the greatest amount of interpolation to most precisely reproduce the original signal.

Alternatively, you can set the Pro iDSD to re-sample everything to DSD512 or DSD1024. DSD is a 1-bit, extremely high-frequency sampling method. It has its own technical imperfections, but can produce results that sound very spacious, but less precise, depending on the DAC.

So what should you set? Whatever you like. There's no right answer.


----------



## Hunki Chunki (Aug 18, 2018)

That was roughly what I thought it will have to be. I guess I will have to try them all and just leave it at something when its all said and done. 

Thanks for the write up! That will give me something to start with haha!


----------



## tonyo442

Currawong said:


> There's no simple way to explain it all. Digital-to-Analog conversion is complex.  I'll give you a very short summary. If you don't understand the basics of digital audio, you'll need to learn how regular PCM audio encodes analog waveforms at the very least.
> 
> A DAC has to re-construct the analog waveform using a number of samples taken of the waveform by the original Analog-to-Digital Converter (ADC). The samples are, more or less to a degree inaccurate as, as it is limited by the bit and sample rates, eg: 16/44.1 for "CD Quality". The DAC has to interpolate samples in between those taken to (reasonably) accurately reconstruct the analog signal. This is called "oversampling" (or "upsampling" sometimes). If you don't do this (ie: use the Pro iDSD's Bit-Perfect, or "Non-OverSampling"/NOS mode) you get a form of distortion that results in a loss of clarity. That is, how you perceive the soundstage will be smaller, and instruments will be less focussed.
> 
> ...


hello, thank you for your comments, and for your analysis on the dacs in general, from what I understood, either one is on the precision and less musicality, or conversely,
have you been able to compare the iDSD pro dacs costing much more expensive, this to know the real possibilities of the iDSD pro, it is easy to give qualities of analysis, silence, configuration, but most of the time these comparisons are made with dacs of the same price level or even lower, it is by making more in-depth comparisons that we can better appreciate the real performance of the iDSD pro, I think some specialized journalists have to think about it, thank you


----------



## Hunki Chunki (Aug 18, 2018)

tonyo442 said:


> hello, thank you for your comments, and for your analysis on the dacs in general, from what I understood, either one is on the precision and less musicality, or conversely,
> have you been able to compare the iDSD pro dacs costing much more expensive, this to know the real possibilities of the iDSD pro, it is easy to give qualities of analysis, silence, configuration, but most of the time these comparisons are made with dacs of the same price level or even lower, it is by making more in-depth comparisons that we can better appreciate the real performance of the iDSD pro, I think some specialized journalists have to think about it, thank you



Currawong has a video review of the unit here ->


----------



## iFi audio

Folks...

*IFA 2018 *
*...it's almost here!*



 

*When?*
The 31st Aug - 5 Sept 2018!

*The place?*
Berlin!

*Where exactly?*
Hall 1.2, stand 206, WOD Audio (iFi's German distributor)

You'll have a chance to preview our EISA award winner - xDSD! Our two lovely girls - *Victoria* and *Sarah *- will be there supported by *Thorsten Loesch* himself.

If you'll attend, please visit us!


----------



## iFi audio

Also folks, AMR will be demoing two machines in the Colorado Audio Society Hospitality Suite at RMAF. Room 6007.



 


 

Yup, we're giving away Fast Blow fuses for Magnepan speakers! 2.5A for Magnepan 3.6/3.7 and 4A for other Magnepan machines.


----------



## audiocraze (Oct 6, 2018)

iFi audio said:


> *The iDSD PRO offers the following choices of digital processing:*
> 
> I. _Direct - Bitperfect _
> 
> ...


Hi @iFi audio 
Is it correct that each of all 5 PCM filters can be applied if PCM to DSD conversation is chosen? For example a cd quality source can be shaped using Transient Aligned filter and then converted to DSD 1024?
Question 2: will this apply in the same way to unfolded MQA files (once this becomes available)? I.e. MQA fully unfolded, then Transient Aligned filtering, then DSD conversion..
Question 3: when will MQA conversation come to Pro iDSD ? Or is there a technical issue to keep this promise?

Thanks,
Özgür


----------



## audiocraze

Promising review by Darko:
https://darko.audio/2018/10/off-the-dial-flexibility-and-value-with-ifis-pro-idsd-dac/

It seems Darko heard sound being shaped by Transient Aligned filter when converting PCM to DSD. at least this is his favourite setting.. 

I own the Pro iDSD for few days now. I’m between “awesome sound” and “this is too harsh”. There are so many combinations (45 to be precise) of sound shaping possible that a week will not be enough to find perfect. I’m very confident that one or two of the combinations will be perfect. The challenge is that “with great power comes great responsibility” and I’m not sure if choosing the right setting for each different track / recording / mood will spoil it in the end. Sometimes I think “life was so simple with a mojo and an iPhone”.. just fun. Now with McIntosh MHA100, LCD-4, Special cables, and 45 options on a super dac, it seems a little fun spoiling. But hey, I could go back anytime and choose not to  so no complaints, just reflection ..


----------



## audiocraze (Oct 6, 2018)

Two more points:
1. The device is on a slippery mat as bottom. Very annoying as you always have to press it down when operating buttons / switches, otherwise it will move around.. I ordered an “Anti-slip Car Dash Sticky Pad” from amazon and will check if this improves handling .. should not really have to rely on a £5.99 Amazon mat to stop the £2k device from slipping around during intended operation and use. 

2. The SS/Tube/Tube+ switch is so stiff that you have to hold the dac with the other hand while switching, and always have to check whether you moved two clicks or one. If anyone has found a way around this let me know please, as I would rather not try to loosen the switch with houndreds of “powered off back and forth movements” ..

Cheers,
Ozgur


----------



## iFi audio

audiocraze said:


> Hi @iFi audio
> Is it correct that each of all 5 PCM filters can be applied if PCM to DSD conversation is chosen? For example a cd quality source can be shaped using Transient Aligned filter and then converted to DSD 1024?
> Question 2: will this apply in the same way to unfolded MQA files (once this becomes available)? I.e. MQA fully unfolded, then Transient Aligned filtering, then DSD conversion..
> Question 3: when will MQA conversation come to Pro iDSD ? Or is there a technical issue to keep this promise?
> ...



1. DSD Remaster mode works with filters, therefore yes. 
2. We'll explain how MQA interacts with filters once this functionality is added.
3. We're working on this and are almost done.


----------



## audiocraze

Update: the mat works perfect. No more slipping. 

Update 2: DSD1024, TA filter, tube+ setting in my setup is just AWESOME. Breathtaking.  I have to add one more complaint to my negative comments above: this thing is so seductive in sound that it needs a warning sticker for addiction risk. Really. Thanks ifi!


----------



## iFi audio

audiocraze said:


> Update: the mat works perfect. No more slipping.
> 
> Update 2: DSD1024, TA filter, tube+ setting in my setup is just AWESOME. Breathtaking.  I have to add one more complaint to my negative comments above: this thing is so seductive in sound that it needs a warning sticker for addiction risk. Really. Thanks ifi!



You're welcome, enjoy!


----------



## iFi audio

*Folks, RMAF!*
Amazing show, amazing vibe, amazing visitors, amazing hardware! *And we're there!*





Many of our products are to be found at our place, including the full Pro stack (Pro iESL + Pro iCAN + Pro iDSD) and a number of fabulous headphones; Focal Utopia, Final D8000 etc.







And we have something very special in there too! The latest AMR DAC. For now we'll just put these pictures here, but in upcoming weeks we'll reveal more nfo about this machine!


----------



## captainobvious

what is the correct size DC power plug required for the DC input socket on this unit please?


----------



## ShinRA88

Do you have updates on pentaconn made by order version?


----------



## Hunki Chunki (Oct 9, 2018)

ShinRA88 said:


> Do you have updates on pentaconn made by order version?



Ugh I wish mine had a 4.4mm instead of the 2.5. Bump as this needs to be addressed!


----------



## iFi audio

Hunki Chunki said:


> Ugh I wish mine had a 4.4mm instead of the 2.5. Bump as this needs to be addressed!



We see those comments. We really do


----------



## all300b

Can we ask general questions about the upcoming AMR DAC?  Did you custom craft the world's first 32-bit R2R silicon?  What about 3D printing your own customized version of the Bendix 6900 for the output stage? Expecting great things from this one.


----------



## Hunki Chunki

iFi audio said:


> We see those comments. We really do



It looks quite sad and lame with the 4.4 to 2.5 mm adapter  ( and i don't think its good for the socket over a long period of time)


----------



## doggiehowser

I use a Heimdahl2 adaptor - 2.5mm to 4 pin XLR. You can get longer ones as needed.


----------



## Hunki Chunki

doggiehowser said:


> I use a Heimdahl2 adaptor - 2.5mm to 4 pin XLR. You can get longer ones as needed.



I am subscribing to the "The shorter the adapter.. the better." theory


----------



## doggiehowser

With some cables, not always true - there is an optimal length, and they often sell it in multiples of this length. So a Nordost 1m cable may be 1.05m long for one model and 1.03m long for another. 

The best is no adaptor at all. But I think the full Heimdahl loom seems to work well


----------



## iFi audio

all300b said:


> Can we ask general questions about the upcoming AMR DAC?  Did you custom craft the world's first 32-bit R2R silicon?  What about 3D printing your own customized version of the Bendix 6900 for the output stage? Expecting great things from this one.



Soon we'll do something regarding explaining what this product is and what it does. Stay tuned!


----------



## audiocraze

iFi audio said:


> 1. DSD Remaster mode works with filters, therefore yes.
> 2. We'll explain how MQA interacts with filters once this functionality is added.
> 3. We're working on this and are almost done.


@iFi audio “Almost done” with MQA Release sounds confident. Are you confident enough to commit to release this within 2018?


----------



## iFi audio

audiocraze said:


> @iFi audio “Almost done” with MQA Release sounds confident. Are you confident enough to commit to release this within 2018?



We're confident in saying that it's almost done. When we know the exact launch date, we'll inform everyone here.


----------



## audiocraze (Oct 11, 2018)

iFi audio said:


> We're confident in saying that it's almost done. When we know the exact launch date, we'll inform everyone here.


I take that as a “no confirmation for 2018” then.. boo! The cadilllac-style “lamborghini AMR dac” should wait, let’s get Pro iDSD completed  just kidding, how could complain  while listening in joy to the Pro iDSD. Complete joy


----------



## Stings

iFi audio said:


> *Preview – Pro series - part 5/5*
> *Jaw-dropping features - the story ends*
> 
> *Power Supplies*
> ...


I have to say that this is a fantastic product. One of the only shortcomings is the remote control


iFi audio said:


> *Preview – Pro series - part 5/5*
> *Jaw-dropping features - the story ends*
> 
> *Power Supplies*
> ...


This is a wonderful product. One of the only shortcomings is the Remote Controller. It works intermittently and only controls the volume. Is there a way or option to upgrade the remote to one that controlls the inputs and filters?Can I add a universal remote controller like the Harmony universal remote? If so, what are the remote code settings to add into the universal remote?  Thank you.


----------



## iFi audio (Oct 29, 2018)

Stings said:


> This is a wonderful product. One of the only shortcomings is the Remote Controller. It works intermittently and only controls the volume. Is there a way or option to upgrade the remote to one that controlls the inputs and filters?Can I add a universal remote controller like the Harmony universal remote? If so, what are the remote code settings to add into the universal remote? Thank you.



Yes it is possible but only volume control is currently available on iDSD Pro. We may at some time consider making other functions available.


----------



## Stings

Thank you.

  I look forward to expanded options of remote control in you idsd Pro product. I.e. Source, Filter and Resolution.

Devoted Customer.


----------



## iFi audio

Also folks, the second biggest audio event in Europe and one of the biggest in general - Poland's *Audio Video Show* - starts in 9 days. 

And we'll be there!



Where: *Warsaw (Poland)*
Where exactly: *The PGE Narodowy stadium, 1st floor*
When: *November 16-18, 2018*
If you're there, please visit us!


----------



## BDHela

Getting a "Clock Error - Please restart".  Nothing fixes it.  Support ticket entered.


----------



## hedron00

BDHela said:


> Getting a "Clock Error - Please restart".  Nothing fixes it.  Support ticket entered.



I had same problem a month ago.  I tried re-started over 10 times but it didn’t work and gave it up. However, it came to normal next day and no problem until now.


----------



## iFi audio

Folks, this is what we do this weekend:



 

If you're around, please come and say hi!


----------



## iFi audio

Yup, HXOS and Athens are awesome!


----------



## skootb

So I still have this issue that's driving me crazy, and might result in my returning the iDSD before my 30 days are up.

If I listen via my iPhone, after a certain amount of time, if I hit pause, then try to resume listening a few minutes later, my phone no longer recognizes the pro iDSD. It doesn't matter how many times i unplug the usb and plug it back in. If I then try plugging my MacBook Pro into the usb of the pro iDSD, my Macbook Pro can't even recognize the pro iDSD. It's like the iDSD USB has shut off. The only way for either to see the iDSD is to restard the iDSD. 

This seems like either a major bug or an issue with my unit. 

Has anyone else experienced this? I've raised a support ticket but it doesn't seem like they're taking me seriously. I can't keep restarting my pro iDSD every time i hit pause.


----------



## 1BADJAD

HELP!  Two "Noob" Questions incoming:  1. Where can I buy a replacement remote (or is that even possible) for my iDSD?  2. Can anyone send me a link me to a site that sells the DC Loop Out cable needed to connect my iDSD & Pro iCAN using one power source?  Thank You & Sorry if this is the wrong place to ask.  My google search on the topic came up with nothing.

Dan


----------



## iFi audio

skootb said:


> So I still have this issue that's driving me crazy, and might result in my returning the iDSD before my 30 days are up.
> 
> If I listen via my iPhone, after a certain amount of time, if I hit pause, then try to resume listening a few minutes later, my phone no longer recognizes the pro iDSD. It doesn't matter how many times i unplug the usb and plug it back in. If I then try plugging my MacBook Pro into the usb of the pro iDSD, my Macbook Pro can't even recognize the pro iDSD. It's like the iDSD USB has shut off. The only way for either to see the iDSD is to restard the iDSD.
> 
> ...



We strongly advise to contact our support team here: http://support.ifi-audio.com/

...and we'll do our best to help you. Thanks!


----------



## iFi audio

1BADJAD said:


> HELP!  Two "Noob" Questions incoming:  1. Where can I buy a replacement remote (or is that even possible) for my iDSD?  2. Can anyone send me a link me to a site that sells the DC Loop Out cable needed to connect my iDSD & Pro iCAN using one power source?  Thank You & Sorry if this is the wrong place to ask.  My google search on the topic came up with nothing.
> 
> Dan



Please contact our support (the link is to be found one post above) and we'll see what we can do.


----------



## skootb

iFi audio said:


> We strongly advise to contact our support team here: http://support.ifi-audio.com/
> 
> ...and we'll do our best to help you. Thanks!




I contacted support. I was told they hadn't heard of this issue, even though other people have reported the exact same issue as me in the other iDSD thread. 

I returned my iDSD pro last week for a refund.


----------



## iFi audio

skootb said:


> I contacted support. I was told they hadn't heard of this issue, even though other people have reported the exact same issue as me in the other iDSD thread.
> 
> I returned my iDSD pro last week for a refund.



We're sorry to hear that. Thank you for giving Pro iDSD a go.


----------



## Trogdor

1BADJAD said:


> HELP!  Two "Noob" Questions incoming:  1. Where can I buy a replacement remote (or is that even possible) for my iDSD?  2. Can anyone send me a link me to a site that sells the DC Loop Out cable needed to connect my iDSD & Pro iCAN using one power source?  Thank You & Sorry if this is the wrong place to ask.  My google search on the topic came up with nothing.
> Dan



I asked the same question and I am awaiting a cable I ordered. I will report back if everything checks out. It should arrive this week.


----------



## skootb

iFi audio said:


> We're sorry to hear that. Thank you for giving Pro iDSD a go.



I really liked the sound. But i couldn’t keep restarting it all day


----------



## 1BADJAD

Trogdor said:


> I asked the same question and I am awaiting a cable I ordered. I will report back if everything checks out. It should arrive this week.


Thank You!


----------



## Trogdor

Got the cable - it was mailed from the UK media mail! Anyway it works! I can now use one iPower Plus to power both units. Really slick. I wish it had a DC trigger so when you power the amp the DAC turns on etc.

I bought mine off of eBay for $2-5 bucks.

Note: You just daisy chain so one unit has DC out connected the other has the normal power in (DC in). Very simple.


----------



## iFi audio (Dec 21, 2018)

Trogdor said:


> Got the cable - it was mailed from the UK media mail! Anyway it works! I can now use one iPower Plus to power both units. Really slick. I wish it had a DC trigger so when you power the amp the DAC turns on etc.
> 
> I bought mine off of eBay for $2-5 bucks.
> 
> Note: You just daisy chain so one unit has DC out connected the other has the normal power in (DC in). Very simple.



It's cool this works for you!

And since it's almost holiday time...




Also we encourage you to check out our winter playlist in Tidal!

https://tidal.com/playlist/8c5a9a27-70df-4acf-8cd5-a3c938b757cf


----------



## 1BADJAD

Trogdor said:


> Got the cable - it was mailed from the UK media mail! Anyway it works! I can now use one iPower Plus to power both units. Really slick. I wish it had a DC trigger so when you power the amp the DAC turns on etc.
> 
> I bought mine off of eBay for $2-5 bucks.
> 
> Note: You just daisy chain so one unit has DC out connected the other has the normal power in (DC in). Very simple.


SWEET!! I got the same email from iFi.  I'm currently waiting for my UK Ebay cable to arrive.  Bummer on the DC trigger....I wrongly assumed it would work that way.  I'm also waiting on a new remote, which was only $19 total from iFi.  I wish another big electronics company (ehem....cough cough....starts with "S" and ends with "ony") would use that approach.  I had to order the remote and WM1Z cable for just under $200.  THANKS iFi for the reasonable price!

Dan


----------



## 1BADJAD

for the TA-ZH1ES, that is


----------



## iFi audio

Folks, we have something short and sweet for you today. Our Thorsten talks about Pro iDSD in the context of AMR's upcoming Diablo DAC. These two machines have A LOT in common and more nfo we'll reveal shortly. In the meantime, Thorsten himself, enjoy!


----------



## iFi audio

*iFi audio – The 2018 Summary
It’s been quite the year…*

Dear community,

2018 is coming to an end and we’ve decided to use this occasion to share with all of you good people a word or two. Many of our product ideas were developed from what you had to say, so we’re extremely grateful for your support. You’re the fuel to our fire, thank you!

The end of the year is also a good time to summarize what we were able to achieve in the last 12 months. Without further ado, here’s what we did:

*Hardware*

•        *March – xDSD*



Before this product came to be, we knew that we had to develop something very different from what we’d done before. We thought about many things – toasters with built-in speakers, a wind-up DAC for use in the dessert…only kidding! We aimed for a portable device with wireless functionality as good as a wired connection, improved volume control and a new look. Suffice to say, we strongly believe that with xDSD we were able to deliver on all counts. The toaster has had to wait!

•        *May - Pro iDSD*



The Pro iDSD is the most ambitious and complex product of ours to date. It started many years ago as a rather simple machine, but the more time passed, the more advanced it became. After years of suffering (and here we mean both ours AND yours, just take poor Curtis as an example), the Pro iDSD eventually came into being as a state-of-the-art desktop platform loaded with so many features that it's far easier to list things it doesn't do! Not only this, but the Pro iDSD also has A LOT in common with AMR's upcoming Diablo DAC. The former is actually a scaled down version of the latter and we're exceptionally proud of how it turned out. 

•        *June - iFi OTG Cable*



We released this item due to huge demand. It's reliable, affordable, looks sleek and there's no rocket science behind it. It does the job where it should. It's useful. Hey, if we're capable of delivering headphone amps and DACs, who said that we can't make a quality OTG cable? And nope, before anyone asks, we can’t make the equivalent Apple cable – if we could, we (and the rest of the world) surely would!!! Sadly, Apple don’t share the tech that we’d need to make one work. Would you, if you were Apple?

•        *June - DC iPurifier2*



All our iPurifiers were developed to show that even a small and affordable item can really improve sound quality if backed by solid tech. The iPurifier2 is a step up over previous versions of this product, simply because our in-house developed circuitry got better over time. Practice makes perfect! 

·        *July - iPurifier3.0*



USB sorters have always been of utmost importance to us and the iPurifier3.0 shows our attitude towards these items. This product might look nothing like our nano or micro iUSB3.0 machines, but its roots are the very same. It was designed to audibly improve the USB interface and very positive feedback from you guys out there showed us that it does just that! Thank goodness!

•        *October – xCAN*



Yet again X marked the spot in October! We really looked forward to releasing the xCAN. On the surface, it resembles our xDSD; they have similar set of features and they look very much alike, but the differences end there. Yes, each has finely implemented Bluetooth receiver, DAC and headphone amp in one neat enclosure BUT the xCAN is a portable and fully analogue amplifier above ALL else and its D/A conversion option is a cherry on top, whereas the xDSD - a DAC in the first place - is the exact opposite. Plus these two can work as a team and we have photographic evidence from you guys to prove it!

•        *November - Ear Plugs*



This one you didn't expect, huh? Us neither. But then again, we like silence and it’s yet another way to give you guys a low noise floor! (Plus they can protect your ears from the squeaks of protest when your loved one finds out you’ve bought yet another piece of audio equipment!) We try to think of everything…

*Software*

•        *March - MQA firmware for all nano and micro products*

This firmware was one of the most important things for us in 2018. We didn't want to include MQA functionality in just one or two products, we wanted to roll things out across all suitable iFi goods, even some discontinued models. Even though the 5.30 'Cookies & Cream' firmware has some limitations, this is the one to go after if you'd like to listen to MQA regardless of the iFi audio DAC you use.

•        *October - GTO filter firmware for all nano and micro products*

The GTO filter was a tricky thing to develop, but in the end, it surely was worth the effort. To our ears it sounds amazing enough to surpass every other filter out there and we encourage everyone to give this one a try. Hey, it comes at nil cost, improves sound and if you don't like it, you can always use our previously released firmware. That's a win-win right there.

•        *November - Beta MQA firmware for the Pro iDSD*

Fully operational MQA on our Pro iDSD took us a fair bit longer than expected for a reason. (Poor Curtis was turning in his grave!). The amount of work needed in order to have this signal fully decoded was nothing short of staggering. Everything had to be coded from scratch. Both our team and MQA's engineers were involved in this project and we're ecstatic that we were able to finally have this functionality ready. Enjoy!



Additionally, one thing we’re very proud of is that we were able to push our head of sales out of the UK office for well-deserved holiday. Blindfolded, the man was in shock and had no idea where he was transported. Since no laptops or comms with his team were allowed, after the adventure he told us that withdrawal shivers kicked in hard. But once he got off the plane and acknowledged he was in Iceland… Long story’s short, after this trip he returned as a new man. Even though he’s a good lad, we didn’t miss him at all but shhh…


----------



## GHoldridge

1BADJAD said:


> SWEET!! I got the same email from iFi.  I'm currently waiting for my UK Ebay cable to arrive.  Bummer on the DC trigger....I wrongly assumed it would work that way.  I'm also waiting on a new remote, which was only $19 total from iFi.  I wish another big electronics company (ehem....cough cough....starts with "S" and ends with "ony") would use that approach.  I had to order the remote and WM1Z cable for just under $200.  THANKS iFi for the reasonable price!
> 
> Dan


Why did you need a new remote? Did the first one break? Or were you just getting a second one.


----------



## 1BADJAD

GHoldridge said:


> Why did you need a new remote? Did the first one break? Or were you just getting a second one.


I bought it on Ebay without the remote or cable for a significant discount.  I needed those items to sell it as a complete package after I demoed it for a while.


----------



## GHoldridge

1BADJAD said:


> I bought it on Ebay without the remote or cable for a significant discount.  I needed those items to sell it as a complete package after I demoed it for a while.


Oh damn lucky you then good find. I had a similar situation with the ifi ican pro I saved money on a music direct demo unit, but eventually was replaced for a new one because of an issue. I keep looking for any “deals” on the idsd pro haven’t had much luck. I had thought about getting it off amazon so I could trial it. The one thing for the price of the pro units the remote sorta bothers me. On one hand it’s functional as a remote but on the other hand a lot of competing equipment in the same price range have some quality looking remotes. I saw another company who released an upgraded version of their units remote after the fact I hope ifi does the same at some point. Having a sweet metal ifi audio designed/branded remote would just be so nice


----------



## 1BADJAD

GHoldridge said:


> Oh damn lucky you then good find. I had a similar situation with the ifi ican pro I saved money on a music direct demo unit, but eventually was replaced for a new one because of an issue. I keep looking for any “deals” on the idsd pro haven’t had much luck. I had thought about getting it off amazon so I could trial it. The one thing for the price of the pro units the remote sorta bothers me. On one hand it’s functional as a remote but on the other hand a lot of competing equipment in the same price range have some quality looking remotes. I saw another company who released an upgraded version of their units remote after the fact I hope ifi does the same at some point. Having a sweet metal ifi audio designed/branded remote would just be so nice


Hmmm...might be selling mine soon.  Haven't made up my mind which two DACs I'll be keeping between Auralic Vega, Hugo Tt and the Pro iDSD...something will def have to go in the near future to fund future purchases...lol.


----------



## iFi audio

GHoldridge said:


> Having a sweet metal ifi audio designed/branded remote would just be so nice



It would, yes. And who knows, maybe in the future we'll introduce something along those lines. But we hardly get any requests on this count and our R&D team is very busy with other cool things, so that's that.


----------



## iFi audio

Folks, please allow us to entertain you with the story of...

*How the Pro iDSD actually works...*
*The XMOS Processor*

The XMOS processor primarily handles the interfaces, including USB connections, SPDIF/AES-EBU connections and I2S input from the WiFi/Network audio module. All inputs are decoded, passed through a memory buffer, then DSD/DOP decoding is applied and then MQA decoding. Also, the entire user interface, display control etc. are handled by the XMOS processor – the 16-Core / 2,000 MIPS.





From the XMOS the I2S PCM signal or DSD signal is passed to the FPGA for any filtering/conversion etc. and from there through a galvanic isolation barrier to the final re-clocking and DACs. This makes sure that all the noisy ‘digital’ processing and its noise is contained on the digital module and cannot affect the DACs and analogue side.





The audio clock is placed next to the re-clocker and DACs and on the ‘Audio’ side of the isolation barrier. This clock is programmed extremely precisely with a < 0.04ppm precision (hence, beyond the ‘femto clock’ level) and is either fixed (USB input) or is adjusted to the long-term average of the incoming data (SPDIF/AES-EBU/I2S from Wifi) which together with the memory buffer makes sure any source jitter is ‘locked out’ completely. This system is the same as found originally in the AMR DP-777 where it was implemented in an FPGA. For the Pro iDSD we have ported it to the XMOS, which is more suited to this kind of task.





After all that digital complexity (which is there for very good reason), the rest of the Pro iDSD is delightfully simple.

The DACs are used in voltage output mode. The signal from the DACs is direct-coupled to a RCLC passive low-pass filter at around 80kHz and from there either to the volume control and the input of line drive circuit or directly to the input of the line drive circuit.





The line drive circuit is in essence a modern take on classic 1950's tube studio circuitry. It is conceptually based on late generation TAB/Mahaik Studio Console line-driver modules, which had two low-gain triode stages and a choke-loaded cathode follower driving an output transformer with a modest amount of looped feedback to lower distortion to what was considered ‘adequate’ by the stringent requirements of the German Public Radio/TV system.





Our circuit is not capacitor / transformer coupled but instead Direct- Coupled and able to drive 200 Ohm (or lower) loads without the need for an output transformer. It is fully discrete and a single ‘non-op-amp’ structure modelled on the way tube circuity works, eliminating for example distortion between stages caused by the non-linear input impedance of solid-state devices compared to tubes.





We use either triode (NOS GE 5670) or J-Fet input, with a special second stage in solid-state that offers extremely high input impedance and high linearity, similar to a triode circuit. The current drive comes not from a cathode follower, instead we use a Mosfet Follower loaded by a CCS with a ‘current booster’ using bipolar transistors as output buffer. Again, a modest amount of loop feedback is used to achieve ‘studio standard’ measured performance.

This looped feedback can be lowered to almost zero in the Tube+ setting, meaning the input tube operates without feedback and the solid-state second stage and output are enclosed in a shorter local feedback loop. This causes much higher measured distortion, subjective sound as always is a different story.


----------



## ladavid

Hi - I have been thinking about buying this dac in the new year to replace an older dac that has no usb connectivity (I use a Mutec MC-3 as usb/spdif connector).  I am currently running a Sonore microrendu to stream Tidal through Roon.  Tried a search and couldn't find any comments about using this dac with Sonore streamers vs running straight out of the computer to the dac.  Anyone with experience out there?  Simplifying with number of boxes and cords would always be a good thing but not sure how much sound improvement the sonore box would bring vs the functionality of the iFi - thanks for any information or thoughts.

David


----------



## 1BADJAD

Quick Question....what method (of the following) has the best SQ for listening to the iDSD or any DAC for that matter? 

USB Input from PC
or
memory card and/or hard drive
or
network streaming)

I currently use USB input straight from my window 10 PC, but I've always wondered if the other methods are preferred.  Can anyone link me to a current article that explains it?  THANKS FOR YOUR WISDOM IN ADVANCE!!


----------



## audiocraze

1BADJAD said:


> Quick Question....what method (of the following) has the best SQ for listening to the iDSD or any DAC for that matter?
> 
> USB Input from PC
> or
> ...


I think it depends on the DAC. The idsd has a great usb input and according to darko’s Test also sound good with connected harddisk. A little off-topic, but my current take is: dig out your CD player, dust it off, and connect it to your headphone amp. Best sound I came back to after years of streaming-addiction and enjoyment-neglect. Thing is, you get lost in jumping from file to file and miss the notes. Who has listened to an album end to end recently?? I find that my 18 year old naim dac sounds so sweet that no dac I tested can reach it, neither chord Hugo nor idsd nor myteks. And that is not because they are inferior in their dac element. It’s the chain of Internet->PC->DAC that is weak. Once you have a roon nucleus plus and roon ready dac it may be a different story. But even that has the limitation of no-substance, inflationary, binary listening. Mindful listening longs for a medium that holds it together. Cassette, Vinyl, CD. Guys, time to get physical again


----------



## 1BADJAD

audiocraze said:


> I think it depends on the DAC. The idsd has a great usb input and according to darko’s Test also sound good with connected harddisk. A little off-topic, but my current take is: dig out your CD player, dust it off, and connect it to your headphone amp. Best sound I came back to after years of streaming-addiction and enjoyment-neglect. Thing is, you get lost in jumping from file to file and miss the notes. Who has listened to an album end to end recently?? I find that my 18 year old naim dac sounds so sweet that no dac I tested can reach it, neither chord Hugo nor idsd nor myteks. And that is not because they are inferior in their dac element. It’s the chain of Internet->PC->DAC that is weak. Once you have a roon nucleus plus and roon ready dac it may be a different story. But even that has the limitation of no-substance, inflationary, binary listening. Mindful listening longs for a medium that holds it together. Cassette, Vinyl, CD. Guys, time to get physical again


Uh oh Audiocraze...I don't even have a CD player to dust off anymore...DOH!  I'm "old school", so I should know better.


----------



## iFi audio (Dec 31, 2018)

1BADJAD said:


> Quick Question....what method (of the following) has the best SQ for listening to the iDSD or any DAC for that matter?
> 
> USB Input from PC
> or
> ...



It depends. It took us a lot of time and work to have all digital inputs possibly as good as they can be, but here your transport comes into play as well. The better it is, the better the result will be.

And since 2019 is here:

https://tidal.com/playlist/aee6099a-20ba-4560-9f40-d4b595ced8a6


----------



## bluesaint

so one would deduce streaming is the best based on your response?  A constructive answer can help us determine if we should invest say in a optimal DLNA server setup if you said network streaming is best.  But our determination and things we would invest in would change if you said USB (hdd/ssd/thumbdrive) input is best.  Completely understand you don't want to favor one option over another for the sake of marketing/sales, but a directional feedback would be quite helpful.



iFi audio said:


> It depends. It took us a lot of time and work to have all digital inputs possibly as good as they can be, but here your transport comes into play as well. The better it is, the better the result will be.
> 
> And since 2019 is here:
> 
> https://tidal.com/playlist/aee6099a-20ba-4560-9f40-d4b595ced8a6


----------



## 1BADJAD

bluesaint said:


> so one would deduce streaming is the best based on your response?  A constructive answer can help us determine if we should invest say in a optimal DLNA server setup if you said network streaming is best.  But our determination and things we would invest in would change if you said USB (hdd/ssd/thumbdrive) input is best.  Completely understand you don't want to favor one option over another for the sake of marketing/sales, but a directional feedback would be quite helpful.


Haha...yep...I thought that answer was a little vague as well...thought it was just me.  I wasn't expecting iFi to chime in though, so I appreciate it...only mildly though, because like I said...VAGUE!    I wish there were more USB3.0 cables to choose from as well.  Supra cables wouldn't make one for me, and I couldn't find any from Audioquest either.  Seems like the only HQ cable out there that would work for me is the Mercury3.0, but it's too short for my needs...gotta have 5-6' for my setup.  Ahem...I wouldn't need to worry about it though if iFi (by letting me cheat on my homework) would confirm if the SQ is better via a drive (thumb, hard, or SD card) than it is connecting a USB to the PC.  Just my two cents.


----------



## iFi audio (Jan 1, 2019)

1BADJAD said:


> Haha...yep...I thought that answer was a little vague as well...thought it was just me.  I wasn't expecting iFi to chime in though, so I appreciate it...only mildly though, because like I said...VAGUE!    I wish there were more USB3.0 cables to choose from as well.  Supra cables wouldn't make one for me, and I couldn't find any from Audioquest either.  Seems like the only HQ cable out there that would work for me is the Mercury3.0, but it's too short for my needs...gotta have 5-6' for my setup.  Ahem...I wouldn't need to worry about it though if iFi (by letting me cheat on my homework) would confirm if the SQ is better via a drive (thumb, hard, or SD card) than it is connecting a USB to the PC.  Just my two cents.



The answer wasn't vague at all. It's important from where music goes to a DAC, signal quality delivered to Pro iDSD to work on varies from one transport to another. One can have a finely optimized PC audio machine and a mediocre streamer or the other way around. It all depends. We'd confuse people by saying that one digital input in Pro iDSD is better than the rest, this subject is far to broad to label one specific option as such. What we'll say yet again is that we strived to make all its digital inputs as good as we possibly could and we're particularly happy with how impervious to tweaks our USB turned out to be for example.

If this doesn't still answer the question which transport is best SQ wise, many people enjoy network component of Pro iDSD and naturally we got a lot of positive feedback about its RJ45, but we're far from saying it's the superior option each time. We think that it can be the best one, as good as everything else or the least optimal. Again, it all depends on a transport quality and Pro iDSD will work with what it'll receive.



bluesaint said:


> so one would deduce streaming is the best based on your response? A constructive answer can help us determine if we should invest say in a optimal DLNA server setup if you said network streaming is best.



The constructive answer was given above. We didn't imply superiority of one specific option.


----------



## Rob N

Is anyone connecting the Pro IDSD and Pro iCan uding the 15v output, if so what cable are you using?


----------



## 1BADJAD

Rob N said:


> Is anyone connecting the Pro IDSD and Pro iCan uding the 15v output, if so what cable are you using?


Do you mean the DC loop out?  If so...iFi support sent a link with a 2.1mm x 5.5mm cable on Ebay, but it's coming from the UK.  Here's another one I found on Amazon:  https://www.amazon.com/Valley-Enter...ale+2.1mm+x+5.5mm+plug+dc+power+adapter+cable


----------



## Rob N

1BADJAD said:


> Do you mean the DC loop out?  If so...iFi support sent a link with a 2.1mm x 5.5mm cable on Ebay, but it's coming from the UK.  Here's another one I found on Amazon:  https://www.amazon.com/Valley-Enterprises®-2-1mm-5-5mm-Adapter/dp/B00DX72UXW/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1546356466&sr=8-3&keywords=male+to+male+2.1mm+x+5.5mm+plug+dc+power+adapter+cable



Yes thanks that’s what I was after


----------



## iFi audio

Folks, MQA + Pro iDSD setup guide. It's actually valid for all MQA decoding DACs.


----------



## iFi audio

Also, we have just released a short but sweet guide about MQA via SPDIF on Pro iDSD in Tidal. Enjoy!


----------



## Dan Lee

Alright so I just got my ifi idsd pro and one of the main reasons I got it was because it would pair perfectly with my ican pro but also because I love the sound of MQA when partially unfolded and have wanted to hear it fully unfolded since I decided to get a new dac.  I am also sure that somewhere in this 144 page thread may very well be my answer but I have looked everywhere I can think to look and have watched that video above like 10 times and no matter what I do I can not get the idsd to display MQA or its sampling rate when playing an MQA file on tidal via my computer.  I have tried as many different settings as I can think no remaster with each of the filters, both dsd remasters with each of the filter options and just cant figure it out.  Ive tried updating the driver and all say they are good and have made ifi the primary source for both computer and tidal and have mqa set as passthrough on tidal.  Please someone enlighten me here.  What am I missing and or doing wrong?  Any help here is greatly appreciated.  
Thank you 
Dan Moser


----------



## doggiehowser

Raise a ticket with iFi

Ask for beta 2.0 firmware which enables MQA. It is not enabled in the official firmware.


----------



## Dan Lee

Thank you for the response.  Thats what bluesaint said too.  I opened a ticket yesterday or the day before and am just waiting to hear back from them.  Other then that I am loving the ifi stack so far.  So many damn options I havent played with nearly all the possible combos yet.  I think this stack is quite good for my adhd mind haha.


----------



## iFi audio

Dan Lee said:


> Thank you for the response.  Thats what bluesaint said too.  I opened a ticket yesterday or the day before and am just waiting to hear back from them.  Other then that I am loving the ifi stack so far.  So many damn options I havent played with nearly all the possible combos yet.  I think this stack is quite good for my adhd mind haha.



That's good to hear! And worry not, our staff will get back to you.


----------



## Dan Lee

Thank you


----------



## Zowie1

Has anyone used this DAC/amp with Hifiman's new HE1000se -headphones? If you have how was the sound?


----------



## iFi audio

Zowie1 said:


> Has anyone used this DAC/amp with Hifiman's new HE1000se -headphones? If you have how was the sound?



We tried it with HE1000V2 and enjoyed the match a lot!


----------



## maninthehighcastle

Is it correct that the pro idsd has a headphone output impedence at 10ohms with single ended? Thats not a good thing for lower impedence headphones like the audeze lcd x isn't it?


----------



## grizzlybeast

http://earphiles.org/2019/02/ifi-pro-idsd-review/


----------



## Slim1970

grizzlybeast said:


> http://earphiles.org/2019/02/ifi-pro-idsd-review/


Nice, read. I like the interview type format in your review. Very well done!!


----------



## grizzlybeast (Feb 11, 2019)

Slim1970 said:


> Nice, read. I like the interview type format in your review. Very well done!!


Thank you! I hope iFi is not offended by me poking fun. I need to edit it some of the typing. But I really think they did a good job. I will do a comparison to it vs the YGGY A2 soon and post it as soon as I can. I am soon out of the game. It is not fair for me to accept units for review and then take so long to review them. I just couldnt pass this one up because I was waiting for it for ever. But now I see why they took so long.


----------



## Slim1970

grizzlybeast said:


> Thank you! I hope iFi is not offended by me poking fun. I need to edit it some of the typing. But I really think they did a good job. I will do a comparison to it vs the YGGY A2 soon and post it as soon as I can. I am soon out of the game. It is not fair for me to accept units for review and then take so long to review them. I just couldnt pass this one up because I was waiting for it for ever. But now I see why they took so long.


I hope to get one to pair with my Pro iCan in the coming months. I like Pro iDSD’s feature set and the one thing that keeps coming up in everyone’s reviews is how musical the Pro iDSD is. So of course I’ll be on the lookout for your comparison review with the YGGY.

 I also understand what you mean about doing product reviews. To do them well takes time. To go in-depth like you do in your reviews I can only imagine the effort it takes to put out such great reviews. Especially if its not your full time job. I for one would like to see you keep putting out such in-depth reviews. As they have helped me make informative decisions on the gear I own. Keep up the good work my friend!


----------



## iFi audio

maninthehighcastle said:


> Is it correct that the pro idsd has a headphone output impedence at 10ohms with single ended? Thats not a good thing for lower impedence headphones like the audeze lcd x isn't it?



Hi there, Just been checking this one out for you. No, it is < 1 Ohm SE, < 2 Ohm balance.

Though power to sensitivity is more important in our opinion. 

I hope this helps.If not, feel free to give our tech support team a shout on https://support.ifi-audio.com/. They will respond quickly and live for these questions!


----------



## maninthehighcastle

Thx


----------



## Baten

maninthehighcastle said:


> Is it correct that the pro idsd has a headphone output impedence at 10ohms with single ended? Thats not a good thing for lower impedence headphones like the audeze lcd x isn't it?



Btw, pretty much all planars have a flat impedance curve (barring some exceptions). meaning that they don't respond to higher output impedance, no negative effect on frequency response.

It's a bigger problem with dynamic headphones.


----------



## iFi audio

grizzlybeast said:


> http://earphiles.org/2019/02/ifi-pro-idsd-review/



We can handle being called 'NERDS' and 'SUPER NERDS' !!! Love the style of the review at the start! Nice one. Punchy. And thanks for the Award! We'll add it to the website it you can ping over the logo in a PM. Cheers.


----------



## Zowie1

How many hours of burn-in is recommended for the Pro iDSD?


----------



## maninthehighcastle (Feb 14, 2019)

Edit: Sorry. I ment the ifi idsd micro. For pro idsd: The tubes are heating up and the light is flashing till they are ready. i don't know if burn in is necessary


----------



## iFi audio

Zowie1 said:


> How many hours of burn-in is recommended for the Pro iDSD?





maninthehighcastle said:


> Edit: Sorry. I ment the ifi idsd micro. For pro idsd: The tubes are heating up and the light is flashing till they are ready. i don't know if burn in is necessary




'Maninthehighcastle' is right, in that the Pro iDSD works fine and will still sound great straight out of the box BUT in an ideal world we'd call 'burnt in' 4 full days per stage.

Each 'stage' has a different signal path, so they'd need 4 days each - 4 days each for solid stage, tube state and tube state plus.

Team iFi


----------



## Currawong

My review is up:


----------



## iFi audio

Currawong said:


> My review is up:




Much appreciated @Currawong !!!


----------



## franz12

I bought a ifi Pro iDSD and received today. While I appreciate variable output/filtering options, I am very disappointed.

The left channel out from the 2.5mm balanced output is dead on arrival. I hear no sound from the left channel of all of my headphones.

I can hear both channels from the 6.3mm se output, there is slight creaking noise at 0 volume whenever I move my head around.. I don't know whether this is a normal thing with this dac/amp..


----------



## iFi audio

franz12 said:


> I can hear both channels from the 6.3mm se output, there is slight creaking noise at 0 volume whenever I move my head around.. I don't know whether this is a normal thing with this dac/amp..



It's not, we'd suggest to try different headphones/IEMs to single out iDSD as the faulty one and then to contact your seller or/and our support: http://support.ifi-audio.com/


----------



## franz12

iFi audio said:


> It's not, we'd suggest to try different headphones/IEMs to single out iDSD as the faulty one and then to contact your seller or/and our support: http://support.ifi-audio.com/



I bought new one, and I will be returning this.

No sound on the left channel alone makes it defective.


----------



## Zowie1 (Feb 22, 2019)

iFi audio said:


> We tried it with HE1000V2 and enjoyed the match a lot!



And the same goes for the HE1000se! With the single-ended connection the sound was quite a bit better than with Micro iDSD BL, but when using the balanced connection it's on a whole another level. Definitely a worthy upgrade and a great pairing with the HE1000se.


----------



## iFi audio

Zowie1 said:


> And the same goes for the HE1000se! With the single-ended connection the sound was quite a bit better than with Micro iDSD BL, but when using the balanced connection it's on a whole another level. Definitely a worthy upgrade and a great pairing with the HE1000se.



It seems that we good iFi people aren't deaf yet!


----------



## grizzlybeast

I am preferring this thing to the Schiit Yggdrasil A2 
 right now for sure. At least on a first listen. I am really enthused to keep going.


----------



## franz12

grizzlybeast said:


> I am preferring this thing to the Schiit Yggdrasil A2
> right now for sure. At least on a first listen. I am really enthused to keep going.


 Hi grizzlybeast, 
I bought this reading your review. I just wonder whether you think this pairs good with the Utopia. If so, I wonder what is your setting. Thanks!


----------



## grizzlybeast

franz12 said:


> Hi grizzlybeast,
> I bought this reading your review. I just wonder whether you think this pairs good with the Utopia. If so, I wonder what is your setting. Thanks!


What amp are you using? Just the amp it comes with?


----------



## franz12

grizzlybeast said:


> What amp are you using? Just the amp it comes with?



I don't have a separate amp at this moment. I am just using the amp that comes with ifi Pro iDSD.


----------



## grizzlybeast

franz12 said:


> I don't have a separate amp at this moment. I am just using the amp that comes with ifi Pro iDSD.


I didn't try the Utopia that way. Plus I do not have one anymore.  I believe it will be a great pairing though. I would personally use bit perfect + with tube + and go from there and tweak to see what you like. I for one never have the unit on without using the tube stage.


----------



## Trogdor

franz12 said:


> Hi grizzlybeast,
> I bought this reading your review. I just wonder whether you think this pairs good with the Utopia. If so, I wonder what is your setting. Thanks!



Fantastic combo. I use it daily.


----------



## iFi audio

grizzlybeast said:


> I for one never have the unit on without using the tube stage.



With cans like Utopias it seems reasonable. Or maybe you simply like to have one source of warm light extra in your room at night


----------



## Zowie1

I'm thinking of getting an LPSU for my Pro iDSD, any suggestions? I found this on ebay but I'm open to other options.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/MCRU-XLCR-...m5217ee1584:g:I2sAAOSw2vJcXJXT&frcectupt=true


----------



## tonyo442

Zowie1 said:


> I'm thinking of getting an LPSU for my Pro iDSD, any suggestions? I found this on ebay but I'm open to other options.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/MCRU-XLCR-...m5217ee1584:g:I2sAAOSw2vJcXJXT&frcectupt=true


hello, I tried also a more important external power supply, and that it is the iDSDpro or the iFi pro ican, the rendering is much better, better definituion, better definition in the mediums like the serious frequencies, I think that the food delivered for purchase does not bring the materials to their highest levels,


----------



## iFi audio

Zowie1 said:


> I'm thinking of getting an LPSU for my Pro iDSD, any suggestions? I found this on ebay but I'm open to other options.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/MCRU-XLCR-...m5217ee1584:g:I2sAAOSw2vJcXJXT&frcectupt=true



We won't suggest anything, but please update us all in here once you have it!


----------



## Zowie1

Will most of the ethernet cables work with the Pro iDSD? I'm thinking about ordering this CAT8 one:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ethernet-V...P1/ref=olp_product_details?_encoding=UTF8&me=


----------



## iFi audio

Zowie1 said:


> Will most of the ethernet cables work with the Pro iDSD? I'm thinking about ordering this CAT8 one:
> 
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ethernet-V...P1/ref=olp_product_details?_encoding=UTF8&me=



We don't see any reason why it shouldn't.


----------



## jacofman

I own the Pro iDSD. I was comparing USB cables, and I usually shut the Pro iDSD off when switching cables. This last time I forgot. When I went to play some music the screen read "Clock Error--Please Restart". I've turned it on and off a dozen times and it continues to show that same error message when it powers up. I can't figure out what happened. Changing a USB cable shouldn't do that. Does anyone have any idea how to fix this problem? Much appreciation for any help in advance!


----------



## jacofman

jacofman said:


> I own the Pro iDSD. I was comparing USB cables, and I usually shut the Pro iDSD off when switching cables. This last time I forgot. When I went to play some music the screen read "Clock Error--Please Restart". I've turned it on and off a dozen times and it continues to show that same error message when it powers up. I can't figure out what happened. Changing a USB cable shouldn't do that. Does anyone have any idea how to fix this problem? Much appreciation for any help in advance!



Looks like I solved my own problem. I unplugged the power cord from the wall, waited 30 minutes, and voila! It worked again.


----------



## iFi audio

jacofman said:


> Looks like I solved my own problem. I unplugged the power cord from the wall, waited 30 minutes, and voila! It worked again.


----------



## datasyd

Dan Lee said:


> ...because it would pair perfectly with my ican pro



...is a perfect introduction for a picture I just took of my audio gear while moving a few things around the apartment. It’s also another thank you to ifi Audio for the staggering benefit Pro ifi products have brought to my decade-old Denon 4520 receiver / Monitor Audio GS60 speakers.

My question, Dan and others, is what next? I have a set of Denon AH-D7200 headphones but I’m contemplating a set of planar magnetic headphones now. Since I have two of the ifi Pro rigs and seek the best headphone experience I’m hoping a few audiophiles can chime in on answering:

[Insert Answer] ...because it would pair perfectly with my ifi Pro iCAN and ifi Pro iDSD?

My (speculative) answer is Meze Empyrean headphones, given its glowing reviews (Currawong also mentioned great compatibility) and comparable investment. Thought I might open it up to members of Head-Fi. Cheers.


----------



## franz12

datasyd said:


> ...is a perfect introduction for a picture I just took of my audio gear while moving a few things around the apartment. It’s also another thank you to ifi Audio for the staggering benefit Pro ifi products have brought to my decade-old Denon 4520 receiver / Monitor Audio GS60 speakers.
> 
> My question, Dan and others, is what next? I have a set of Denon AH-D7200 headphones but I’m contemplating a set of planar magnetic headphones now. Since I have two of the ifi Pro rigs and seek the best headphone experience I’m hoping a few audiophiles can chime in on answering:
> 
> ...



I think ifi Audio likes the Susvara. You can see his several posts in the Susvara thread.


----------



## Dan Lee

I dont know about everyone else but I feel like the iCAN and iDSD Pro were built for planars and TOTL planars are where you will find the most enjoyment.  I personally love everything that comes out of my Audeze LCD-4's.  I know some others who have the same set up and love Hifiman TOTL planars with it.  I've used the Utopias with it as well, and while they were a wonderful match I still chose the LCD-4 in the end.


----------



## jacofman

datasyd said:


> ...is a perfect introduction for a picture I just took of my audio gear while moving a few things around the apartment. It’s also another thank you to ifi Audio for the staggering benefit Pro ifi products have brought to my decade-old Denon 4520 receiver / Monitor Audio GS60 speakers.
> 
> My question, Dan and others, is what next? I have a set of Denon AH-D7200 headphones but I’m contemplating a set of planar magnetic headphones now. Since I have two of the ifi Pro rigs and seek the best headphone experience I’m hoping a few audiophiles can chime in on answering:
> 
> ...



What settings did you use to get the screen to show "MQA" on your ifi Pro iDSD? I've never seen MQA displayed, even though I play lots of MQA cuts from Tidal. Any help would be appreciated in advance


----------



## datasyd (Apr 22, 2019)

jacofman said:


> What settings did you use to get the screen to show "MQA" on your ifi Pro iDSD? I've never seen MQA displayed, even though I play lots of MQA cuts from Tidal. Any help would be appreciated in advance



Ifi Audio has a good video on this. Setting:
1. Streaming <- select Master
2. Sound Output <- select your ifi
3.  Sound Output (additional settings) <- Everything on
Edit: I am assuming you have the latest firmware:
For MAC os https://ifi-audio.com/firmware/Mac_iFi_Pro_iDSD_XMOS_V2.01.dmg
For Windows https://ifi-audio.com/firmware/Win_iFi_Pro_iDSD_XMOS_V2.01.bin
See


----------



## Dan Lee

MQA was a pain in the a.s.s. for me to get going.  But it is definitely doable.  You have to go to ifi's website and go to the support header at the top.  Then select downloads.  This is where it can be a little confusing.  You have to download the ifi firmware install tool and run it as the directions instruct you too.  Then you download the newest version of the ifi firmware which is 2.0 I believe and follow those directions.  

After all that is installed you do not have to do anything to get  MQA to display on tidal so long as you have master streaming selected.  doesnt matter what filter or setting your idsd is in if it plays an MQA track it will automatically do what it needs to do to play that track and display MQA. 

When you finally get that done tell us what you think of the sound quality.  I dont know about the rest of the folks on this thread, but I absolutely love MQA.


----------



## jacofman

I own the ifi iDSD DAC, and I love it. I'm considering buying an Sbooster linear power supply to improve its sound. There are so many versions and I don't know which one is the most appropriate for the ifi Pro iDSD. The options are listed below. I would particularly like to hear from the representative from ifi on this one. Thanks so much.


 BOTW P&P ECO 5-6V MKII 
 BOTW P&P ECO 9-10V MKII 
 BOTW P&P ECO 12-13V MKII 
 BOTW P&P ECO 15-16V MKII 
 BOTW P&P ECO 18-19V MKII 
 BOTW P&P ECO 24V MKII

Jacob Ofman


----------



## Roscoeiii

jacofman said:


> I own the ifi iDSD DAC, and I love it. I'm considering buying an Sbooster linear power supply to improve its sound. There are so many versions and I don't know which one is the most appropriate for the ifi Pro iDSD. The options are listed below. I would particularly like to hear from the representative from ifi on this one. Thanks so much.
> 
> 
> BOTW P&P ECO 5-6V MKII
> ...



At this level of iFi gear, I'd actually be surprised if another power supply is going to get you too much. ALSO: Be warned that adding a power supply from another manufacturer in most cases will *invalidate your warranty*. Proceed with caution!!!

@iFi will also most likely weigh in on this one...


----------



## bluesaint

jacofman said:


> I own the ifi iDSD DAC, and I love it. I'm considering buying an Sbooster linear power supply to improve its sound. There are so many versions and I don't know which one is the most appropriate for the ifi Pro iDSD. The options are listed below. I would particularly like to hear from the representative from ifi on this one. Thanks so much.
> 
> 
> BOTW P&P ECO 5-6V MKII
> ...


you get much better bang by swapping out the stock 1980's GE 5670 tubes to something better, and will make a significant improvement in sound vs. questionable power supply upgrades.


----------



## datasyd

Dan Lee said:


> MQA was a pain in the a.s.s. for me to get going.



Eventually I was able to upgrade my ifi Pro’s firmware using my MAC — it’s version 2.01 and I’ve provided links for both MAC and PC in my prior post — by installing a temporary new user while running a virtual PC.


----------



## jacofman

bluesaint said:


> you get much better bang by swapping out the stock 1980's GE 5670 tubes to something better, and will make a significant improvement in sound vs. questionable power supply upgrades.



I'm open. Do you have any recommendations about specific tubes and where to get them?


----------



## bluesaint

jacofman said:


> I'm open. Do you have any recommendations about specific tubes and where to get them?



Depends on what you are after with regard to tonal balance and sonic preferences.  Also important based on the type of headphone you are using.

The two immediate ones I'd recommend for most use cases is 1950s GE JG5670 triple mica if you like existing stock GE.  The 1950s triple mica version is a direct upgrade to the stock tubes in all aspects.  I have plenty reserves of these I can part with for cheap($30 to $50) or you can find them easily as well.

The WE396a tubes are fuller sounding tubes that warms up the sound while not robbing you of details.  But If you are using say Audeze where they lean towards darker sounding, then probably not the best match.  For WE396a, the best of the best are 1940s to mid 1950s JW 396a followed by regular WE396a of same era.  I have one pair of a really high rating 1955s WE396a, but isnt cheap ($160 shipped).

Feel free to do some more research on these tube types.  It's a treasure grove of good knowledge waiting for you!


----------



## iFi audio (Apr 23, 2019)

franz12 said:


> I think ifi Audio likes the Susvara. You can see his several posts in the Susvara thread.



We do, yup. Great headphones.



bluesaint said:


> 1955s WE396a



Great tubes. Pricey but worth giving them a chance.


----------



## jacofman

This is mainly for the ifi rep.

1. If I were to get the Sbooster linear power supply, would this automatically void my warranty with ifi as mentioned by someone earlier?
2. Which one of the many choices that Sbooster offers (below) is the correct one for the ifi Pro iDSD?


BOTW P&P ECO 5-6V MKII 
BOTW P&P ECO 9-10V MKII 
BOTW P&P ECO 12-13V MKII 
BOTW P&P ECO 15-16V MKII 
BOTW P&P ECO 18-19V MKII 
BOTW P&P ECO 24V MKII


----------



## iFi audio (Apr 23, 2019)

jacofman said:


> This is mainly for the ifi rep.
> 
> 1. If I were to get the Sbooster linear power supply, would this automatically void my warranty with ifi as mentioned by someone earlier?
> 2. Which one of the many choices that Sbooster offers (below) is the correct one for the ifi Pro iDSD?
> ...



1. We designed Pro iDSD to work with our own PSU, so warranty wouldn't cover damage due to usage of stuff not ours. 

2. We can't answer to this question due to what we wrote above. This question should be sent to a company of that PSU you wish to use.

As long as that linear PSU is within specs of what Pro iDSD needs, you should be fine. But again, our warranty doesn't cover failure in the event of unit going bust due to usage of PSU not ours.


----------



## jacofman

iFi audio said:


> 1. We designed Pro iDSD to work with our own PSU, so we don't think warranty would cover damage due to usag of stuff not ours. But we'll ask just to double-check this.
> 2. We can't answer to this question due to what we wrote above. This question should be sent to a company of that PSU you wish to use.



Ok. Let me ask this. What is the voltage of the iFi power supply that I’m using right now with the Pro iDSD??


----------



## 21qz

Hi guys torn between idsd pro/hugo2/TT2. Was/is anyone in the same boat?


----------



## Dan Lee

@21qz I love my iDSD Pro, but I have recently been reading a lot about Chord DAC's and I really want to hear the TT2.  I would take the iDSD all day over the hugo and hugo 2, but I would probably take the TT2 over the iDSD if I could afford it.  I am tempted to buy one just to hear the difference in sound quality.  But I also have the iCAN Pro and the iDSD and iCAN pair incredibly well together and the shear volume of sound combinations with them is almost impossible to try them all.  The iDSD by itself has 45 possible combos and when you add the iCAN that number goes a lot higher.  So either way that would be a very difficult decision for me.

I wish I had a hifi store I could go to and try these things.  Alas I do not and have had to purchase everything I have wanted to try.  In the early stages of this hobby thats not to big a deal as you can get stuff on amazon and return it if you hate it but as you get to the higher end you gotta go with reputable dealers and those decisions become much harder.

But in all honesty I imagine you would be very happy with either of those DAC's.


----------



## Dan Lee

@jacofman you should absolutely take @bluesaint s advice when it comes to tubes.  There are a handful of guys on this forum I have met that know a lot about tubes, and that man is one whose word I would always take when it comes to tubes.


----------



## 21qz

Dan Lee said:


> @21qz I love my iDSD Pro, but I have recently been reading a lot about Chord DAC's and I really want to hear the TT2.  I would take the iDSD all day over the hugo and hugo 2, but I would probably take the TT2 over the iDSD if I could afford it.  I am tempted to buy one just to hear the difference in sound quality.  But I also have the iCAN Pro and the iDSD and iCAN pair incredibly well together and the shear volume of sound combinations with them is almost impossible to try them all.  The iDSD by itself has 45 possible combos and when you add the iCAN that number goes a lot higher.  So either way that would be a very difficult decision for me.
> 
> I wish I had a hifi store I could go to and try these things.  Alas I do not and have had to purchase everything I have wanted to try.  In the early stages of this hobby thats not to big a deal as you can get stuff on amazon and return it if you hate it but as you get to the higher end you gotta go with reputable dealers and those decisions become much harder.
> 
> But in all honesty I imagine you would be very happy with either of those DAC's.



I hear you brother, I live in Alaska so the only sound sampling i can do is buying the equipment out of pocket. 
That TT2 from what i've read and researched is the answer. I just came across the IFI's today and for the price its hard to not consider. 
The way i look at it is get either the Hugo 2 or IDSD to start or go all in for the TT2. Hope someone else shines some light.


----------



## Dan Lee

If its between the Hugo 2 or the iDSD I'm going iDSD all day because the Hugo 2 is just not as good as the TT2.  There is the possibility that it sounds better then the iDSD, but I can guarantee that possibility is far outweighed by the overwhelming amount of options that you get with the iDSD, but that is of course just my personal opinion.  

You definitely have it rough in Alaska being an audiophile.  I imagine there is not a whole lot of people into high end audio up in that area.  I thought it was tough for me, but my guess is your payin more for shipping then me too.


----------



## 21qz

Dan Lee said:


> If its between the Hugo 2 or the iDSD I'm going iDSD all day because the Hugo 2 is just not as good as the TT2.  There is the possibility that it sounds better then the iDSD, but I can guarantee that possibility is far outweighed by the overwhelming amount of options that you get with the iDSD, but that is of course just my personal opinion.
> 
> You definitely have it rough in Alaska being an audiophile.  I imagine there is not a whole lot of people into high end audio up in that area.  I thought it was tough for me, but my guess is your payin more for shipping then me too.


Yeah it sucks, the only thing i have is a best buy magnolia, but that's more beneficial for home theater here. =( Eventually i'd like to add the Mscaler, so i may just keep it Chord. I'll hang out here for awhile if anyone else has some thoughts.


----------



## iFi audio

jacofman said:


> Ok. Let me ask this. What is the voltage of the iFi power supply that I’m using right now with the Pro iDSD??



It's 15V/4A.


----------



## jacofman

bluesaint said:


> Depends on what you are after with regard to tonal balance and sonic preferences.  Also important based on the type of headphone you are using.
> 
> The two immediate ones I'd recommend for most use cases is 1950s GE JG5670 triple mica if you like existing stock GE.  The 1950s triple mica version is a direct upgrade to the stock tubes in all aspects.  I have plenty reserves of these I can part with for cheap($30 to $50) or you can find them easily as well.
> 
> ...



I'll be using these tubes in the ifi Pro mainly for my main living room system, not headphone listening. I do have a pair of Audeze EL-8 headphones (closed back) but I almost always listen to them with my ifi portable amp/dac. The sonic attributes I want to shine are imaging and sound staging (my speakers are awesome at both). I love detail, but not at the price of being harsh. And I want acoustic instruments to sound natural and full bodied. I want the acoustic instruments to sound like they are in the room--as if you could reach out and touch them, so I value transparency and clarity. I listen to lots of acoustic music, but I listen to much more electronic music that often has incredibly wide and deep sound staging. Would the  JW WE396a tubes come closest to that description, or maybe the other pair of GE JG5670 triple mica? Let me know what you think. Thanks!


----------



## jacofman

iFi audio said:


> It's 15V/4A.



Thank you.If I decide to get the Sbooster power supply, I'll report back about its sound compared to the stock ifi power supply.


----------



## bluesaint

jacofman said:


> I'll be using these tubes in the ifi Pro mainly for my main living room system, not headphone listening. I do have a pair of Audeze EL-8 headphones (closed back) but I almost always listen to them with my ifi portable amp/dac. The sonic attributes I want to shine are imaging and sound staging (my speakers are awesome at both). I love detail, but not at the price of being harsh. And I want acoustic instruments to sound natural and full bodied. I want the acoustic instruments to sound like they are in the room--as if you could reach out and touch them, so I value transparency and clarity. I listen to lots of acoustic music, but I listen to much more electronic music that often has incredibly wide and deep sound staging. Would the  JW WE396a tubes come closest to that description, or maybe the other pair of GE JG5670 triple mica? Let me know what you think. Thanks!



Well, you are sort of describing them both combined.  The difference between the 2 tubes is the western electrics are considered the warmest/fullest sounding of these type of tubes.  The GE JG5670 triple mica has more bass impact and slightly more airy up top.


----------



## jacofman

bluesaint said:


> Well, you are sort of describing them both combined.  The difference between the 2 tubes is the western electrics are considered the warmest/fullest sounding of these type of tubes.  The GE JG5670 triple mica has more bass impact and slightly more airy up top.





bluesaint said:


> Well, you are sort of describing them both combined.  The difference between the 2 tubes is the western electrics are considered the warmest/fullest sounding of these type of tubes.  The GE JG5670 triple mica has more bass impact and slightly more airy up top.



Ok. How do I buy the WE396a pair for $160? Sounds like those are much harder to come by. And, what is your price for a stock pair of WE396a tubes? Thanks in advance.


----------



## bluesaint

jacofman said:


> Ok. How do I buy the WE396a pair for $160? Sounds like those are much harder to come by. And, what is your price for a stock pair of WE396a tubes? Thanks in advance.


I'll PM you, don't want to derail this thread


----------



## iFi audio

jacofman said:


> Thank you.If I decide to get the Sbooster power supply, I'll report back about its sound compared to the stock ifi power supply.



Please do, we look forward to your findings.


----------



## datasyd

Dan Lee said:


> The iDSD by itself has 45 possible combos and when you add the iCAN that number goes a lot higher. So either way that would be a very difficult decision for me.



Only 45 sound combos? 

One thing I am keen to ask you ifi'diophiles is whether you follow ifi Audio's advice and run the Pro iDSD on 'HiFi Fixed' when connected to the Pro iCAN or if you've tested the flexibility of 'HiFi Variable'? To non ifi'ers, that behind-the-unit screw-setting enables both ifi Pro-units to control sound amplification independently or fix the gain on the ifi iDSD. That's important because each device has a different sound signature. To me, it seems the variable setting is more capable of controlling emphasis of the degree of bass and treble I experience--perhaps it controls how V-shaped you prefer the sound--with total volume somewhat constant I hear a more pronounced V-shape setting the Pro iCAN at a relatively higher level. 

Does anyone care to share their insight?


----------



## Dan Lee

Yes unfortunately there are only 45 combos if you are using the idsd as both your amp and dac.  I mean honestly that is an atrocious and detestable attempt at options.  Of course then you throw the ole iCAN into the mix and now you have 3 bass boost settings, and 3 3D settings, and 3 more tube settings which are supposed to also interact with one another essentially providing the user of these two units together even more tube tuning abilities.  Then as you mentioned @datasyd you can essentially endlessly though ever so subtly adjust sound settings via the HiFi Variable setting.  

I have played with that setting a little bit, but not as much as I believe I will in the future.  That to me is the overall beauty of this pairing.  One of the audiophiles greatest shortcomings is our inability to sit still long enough once we have gotten used to something.  But in the case of these two units it is going to take me an insanely long amount of time to actually get bored with these.  I imagine the units will die before this happens.  That doesn't mean I will never buy another DAC or AMP.  I will however say that it certainly ensures that whatever else down the road I do decide to get next, if anything, will have to be well above justifiably better to lead me to replace this pairing.

When I did use the HiFi Variable setting I will admit that I found it rather enjoyable.  I would actually like to learn more about how it works together as I am left to wonder if utilizing the amp feature in the iDSD takes some of the pressure off the amp feature in the iCAN which would allow you a little more flexibility with the bass and 3d settings.  Perhaps @iFi audio could offer us a little more understanding in this particular regard.


----------



## datasyd

Dan Lee said:


> Yes unfortunately there are only 45 combos if you are using the idsd as both your amp and dac.  I mean honestly that is an atrocious and detestable attempt at options.



You might laugh now but please have some pity for a perfectionist who not only listens to each combo but listens until they hear the differences

Fortunately, some combinations seem obviously superior. eg: 1. I never upsample non-DSD music to DSD. 2. For FLAC files on Tidal, GTO beats everything else hands down. 3. Tube mode provides me with the greatest level of enjoyment, although it tempts me to try different tubes, ones promising more of the accuracy of the Pro iDSD/iCAN in solid state, delivered with the musicality of tube. And some settings, such as the XBASS and 3D are easy to find preferences for, albeit that might vary from one album to another. Once you add HiFi Variable into the equation I think it makes the sound combinations fascinating.

I find the software side more challenging, such as sorting through the multitude of options HQPlayer offers. I must have sat through 30 variations of Bohemian Rhapsody (perhaps a few tracks), determined to minimise annoyance from a drum cymbal and a lispy vocal track, only to discover Queen live was 10 x better anyway and I should just move on haha


----------



## Dan Lee

@datasyd I too consider myself a perfectionist and when I first received this unit was suddenly overwhelmed by the options feeling that I would have to try them all but had absolutely no idea where to begin and therefore just picked a setting and lived with it for a while until I was able to gain some clarity on some ot the other settings and filters.  Then I tried another one.  Now I have managed to try 3 combos with enough time to allow myself to hear the differences.

I like that you also mention not upsampling to dsd from non dsd files.  It was only recently that I have learned to desire that as well.  I will concede that upsampling can improve sound in some ways with lesser recordings.  However when I stopped upsampling and started using the transient aligned filter It was perhaps the most noticeable change I have ever experienced from a DAC.  It bloody well caught me off guard as I was expecting to hear very little if any change.  Instead I heard far more detail in the music which was perfectly in line with research that shows the ways that upsampling can improve sound can also result in less detail and richness.  It was detail and richness and an almost holographic picture of the sound.  I would say that was by far the best representation of sound that I have thus far heard.  That being said I still have so much to try.  I'm just trying to take it as slowly as possible to basically ensure this is my endgame set up.  I've considered other DAC AMP pairings, but for me they all fall short of what my iFi setup does.  Some may suggest I am crazy not to go for a Hugo TT2 or a GSX MK2 or some other monster set up, but for me I am all to aware of the law of diminishing returns and have no desire to spend an extra $5 to $10 grand to experience a 10 to 15% increase in sound quality.  

Hell I haven't even tried the tube settings yet and I bloody love tubes.  However the Solid State sound that comes from this amp is for my ears intoxicating.  At some point I will play with the tubes and like you I am most certainly going to want to swap tubes.  But now upon your insight I am going to have to compare GTO to TA.  Also Im just gonna pretend I didn't read the bit about HQPlayer as my mind might explode.... Dammit.... What the hell is HQPlayer and why haven't I heard of it and how do I get it?


----------



## iFi audio

Dan Lee said:


> When I did use the HiFi Variable setting I will admit that I found it rather enjoyable. I would actually like to learn more about how it works together as I am left to wonder if utilizing the amp feature in the iDSD takes some of the pressure off the amp feature in the iCAN which would allow you a little more flexibility with the bass and 3d settings. Perhaps @iFi audio could offer us a little more understanding in this particular regard.



We don't have anything new to say here. Pro iDSD's volume control is not needed if Pro iCAN is further in the chain as it has its own. There's no reason to have two engaged, but if one hears any beneficial sound change with them on, then who are we to judge


----------



## Dan Lee

iFi audio said:


> We don't have anything new to say here. Pro iDSD's volume control is not needed if Pro iCAN is further in the chain as it has its own. There's no reason to have two engaged, but if one hears any beneficial sound change with them on, then who are we to judge


Thank you for that response.  So I assume from this that there is no benefit to power relief from the iCAN when using the iDSD with it?  I know that the Bass boost and 3D effect has a great deal of impact on the power of the iCAN and on harder to drive headphones can engage the safety shutoff.  So for me I wasn't really worried about sound benefits so much as easing the pressure on the iCAN allowing more use of the Bass and 3D combos without worrying about putting the iCAN into shutoff mode.

Also just wanted to say that it's fantastic to me that companies with such a well known and valued name like @iFi audio still take the time to interact with their users on this forum.  Thank you for that.


----------



## iFi audio

Dan Lee said:


> Also just wanted to say that it's fantastic to me that companies with such a well known and valued name like @iFi audio still take the time to interact with their users on this forum. Thank you for that.



Sure thing. We help and reply when we can. It's not only a job for us. It's a hobby too and rather interesting one!


----------



## Dan Lee

No answer on the power thing?  haha

Its okay.  I'm sure it likely doesn't help and it's simply a show of my complete naivety on the internal workings of amplifiers and how they may or may not function together.  
I certainly don't want to be that guy that keeps bothering the industry rep's on these forums over nonsense.  Especially if it's something most do and my ignorance is showing through to clearly here.

Perhaps one of you on this forum who has a little more time and experience with this pairing could offer some insight on this idea that the use of the iDSD's amp along with that of the iCAN does or does not take any pressure off of the iCAN.  Hell for all I know there may be no actual use of the iDSD's amp here and it is just the volume potentiometer that is being used to assist with fine tuning the volume of the iCAN's output, but is solely using the iCAN's amp function and still bypassing that of the iDSD's.

Thanks


----------



## jacofman

Speaking of power supplies for the ifi Pro iDSD, I found this on the web today. Anyone have any experience with this particular power supply?

https://mcru.co.uk/product/regulated-linear-power-supply-for-ifi-audio-pro-idsd/?v=7516fd43adaa


----------



## Baten

jacofman said:


> Speaking of power supplies for the ifi Pro iDSD, I found this on the web today. Anyone have any experience with this particular power supply?
> 
> https://mcru.co.uk/product/regulated-linear-power-supply-for-ifi-audio-pro-idsd/?v=7516fd43adaa



It's a £600.00 power supply with barely any details on how it's made. I wouldn't find it surprisingly hardly anyone would buy it let alone review it..


----------



## datasyd

iFi audio said:


> Pro iDSD's volume control is not needed if Pro iCAN is further in the chain as it has its own.



I must be fooling myself. But the difference between combinations of volume gain on the iDSD (while it's on HiFi Variable) and the iCAN is substantial or I will eat my proverbial hat. Can you please confirm this? Same thing when I run it through my stereo, but with three amps to deal with. What else am I hearing?


----------



## iFi audio

datasyd said:


> I must be fooling myself. But the difference between combinations of volume gain on the iDSD (while it's on HiFi Variable) and the iCAN is substantial or I will eat my proverbial hat. Can you please confirm this? Same thing when I run it through my stereo, but with three amps to deal with. What else am I hearing?



Additional components not bypassed if Pro iDSD's rear toggle is set as variable. If it's set to 'fixed', the signal path gets shorter.


----------



## jacofman

I love tube rolling. I bought 2 pairs of replacement tubes for the stock GE 5670. One was a pair of GE 1950s JG5670 Triple Micas, and the second was a pair of vintage WE396a's. I decided to put in the GE 5670 Triple Micas. The installation was a bit tricky for two reasons. First, the back plate is permanently attached to a wire so you can't completely remove it. You have to angle it through the unit's cover to completely remove the cover. A bit tricky, but if I can do it, anybody can do it. Second, the wifi antenna is a bit tricky to remove. There's a nut and a grommet that need to be removed at the base of the gold post. But you need to hold the post with a pair of pliers, gently, to get a grip on the bolt so that you can remove it and then the grommet. Again, I did it so anybody can do it. I reassembled everything after I swapped the tube set, and put the unit back into my home system. I don't do much headphone listening these days, so I mainly use the ifi iPro iDSD in my home system. I don't want to say too much about the sound quality yet because the tubes need to be broken in. But I can sum up the change in one word:
WOWWWWW!!! Substantial increase in detail and major slam in the dynamics department. A full report to come soon on the sonic differences between the tube sets once the tubes are fully broken in. And BTW, our very own  "Bluesaint" really is a saint when it comes to buying tubes. The entire transaction was very professional and he gave me lots of information to boot. If you ever need tubes for your ifi (or anything else, for that matter) "Bluesaint" is the man.


----------



## iFi audio

jacofman said:


> A full report to come soon on the sonic differences between the tube sets once the tubes are fully broken in.



We have our popcorn ready and nicely salty.



jacofman said:


> "Bluesaint" is the man.



Yup, he is!


----------



## Toyboyo (May 4, 2019)

I just got a new iFi PRO iDSD and noticed that it makes noise just after bootup as the volume knob moves up to the memory spot - and if I move the volume knob after that there is also noise - the noise stops when I start playback and does not recur on stopping playback.  If I wait a while it seems to stop.
This is through the headphone out and in all modes ie -whether SS or Tube or Tube+ mode and all of the filters etc
It happens with no inputs plugged in or with inputs plugged in.

Anybody else experience the same thing?
@iFi audio  have any ideas?


----------



## iFi audio

Toyboyo said:


> @iFi audio have any ideas?



Yup, our support platform here: http://support.ifi-audio.com/

Please tell us about this in there, thanks!


----------



## jacofman

Review of  1950s GE JG5670 triple mica Tubes for iFi  Pro iDSD DAC


This is a review of the  1950s GE JG5670 triple mica tubes that replaced the stock GE 5570 tubes for the iFi Pro iDSD DAC. The installation was pretty straightforward, except that the back panel is permanently attached via wires. It needs to be gently maneuvered through the main cover in order to access the tubes. FYI, I primarily use my iFi Pro in my main stereo system in my living room. I rarely listen to music through my Audeze EL-8 closed back headphones through this system. So my observations are exclusively based on using the iFi Pro in that configuration. 


If you don’t want to read a long, more detailed review, here is a summary of what I heard. The more detailed review is below. The first things you notice after swapping the tubes are increased dynamics at both ends of the spectrum, more clarity and transparency, and more detail. These are not subtle changes. Beyond that, I heard more body on acoustic instruments and more specificity for each instrument occupying its own space in the larger soundstage. The soundstage didn’t appear to benefit from greater depth or width with these tubes. Bass seemed to be a bit tighter and more pronounced. And finally, these tubes are more musical. Everything sounds “right” with these tubes, like you want to tap your feet and move your body and smile when playing great music through them. Not bad for simple tube rolling. 


For the more detailed review, I’ll share some of my sources from which these observations were derived. If you listen to “Moon Dance” on Kenny Barron and Mino Cinelu’s “Swamp Sally” album, the percussion thwacks jump right out at you. At every level, from soft to medium to loud dynamics, these tubes handle them well, and stop on a dime when the music calls for it. Very impressive!


I love Anouar Brahem’s music. It’s middle eastern jazz recorded beautifully on ECM records. When listening to “Lover of Beirut” on his “Astounding Eyes of Rita” album, the oud and the bass clarinet sound like they are in your living room, intimately playing for you. The transparency is unreal. When the darbouka joins them toward the end of the song, you can feel its presence in your room. Sublime music. 


I listen to a lot of electronic music. I know “Toku “ by Monolake on their album “Ghosts” inside and out. Or so I thought. Listening to it with the NOS tubes, I heard details that I’d never heard before. There are different sounds coming from everywhere in the soundstage, and every one of them had more nuance and detail than ever before. Quite revelatory!


Listening to “Tundra” on Amber Rubarth’s “Sessions From The 17th Ward”, all three instruments (violin, cello, and percussion) sounded richer and fuller than before. The sound was anemic with the stock tubes. But with the new tubes, it was if somebody fattened the instruments, but in a totally good way. 


As far as bass goes, it was tighter and more pronounced than before. Listen to “Sarasate” on “Uncommon Ritual”. The bass just jumps out at you and growls. Whether it was acoustic bass or electronic bass, it was tighter and more integral to the mix of the song. Listen to “Narabeh “ on Compa’s “narabeh” for some deep electronic bass. Play it loud, but not too loud because you’ll blow your speakers. Very impressive. 


I especially love these tubes because they make everything sound more musical. Listen to Tony Rice’s guitar playing and David Grisman’s mandolin playing on “I Am a Pilgrim” on their “Tone Poems” album. They are both virtuosos on their instruments, and with these tubes, you’re on the edge of your seat waiting for the next volley of notes to envelop you. Both instruments just sound “right”. Or listen to some difficult music like Ricardo Villabos’s electronic music “re-imagination” of some avant garde classical music on “Reblop” from “Re: ECM”. These tubes make the music more accessible and approachable, which allowed me to enjoy it much more. 


As you can see, I love these tubes. I still have a potentially even more likable set of tubes to try in the  1955 set ofWE396a’s. They are harder to find, much more expensive, and will potentially enhance the sound even more. Can’t wait to try them down the line. If people respond favorably to this review, I’ll do the same for that set of tubes. Happy tube rolling everyone!


----------



## datasyd

jacofman said:


> As you can see, I love these tubes.



Oh my, what a great review, thank you!

"As you can see" -- made me wonder if perhaps you wouldn't mind taking a video of changing the tubes for the WE396a's review? My partner won't let me go near the ifi's internals without us being confident how doable this is Also, since I own both the Pro iDSD and Pro iCAN, do you imagine there are any issues finding four matching tubes?


----------



## jacofman

datasyd said:


> Oh my, what a great review, thank you!
> 
> "As you can see" -- made me wonder if perhaps you wouldn't mind taking a video of changing the tubes for the WE396a's review? My partner won't let me go near the ifi's internals without us being confident how doable this is Also, since I own both the Pro iDSD and Pro iCAN, do you imagine there are any issues finding four matching tubes?



I will do my best to take a video of how to change the tubes. It will require a buddy to film while I work. Should be doable. And contact “bluesaint” for your tube needs. He’ll take care of you.


----------



## iFi audio

jacofman said:


> Review of  1950s GE JG5670 triple mica Tubes for iFi  Pro iDSD DAC
> 
> 
> This is a review of the  1950s GE JG5670 triple mica tubes that replaced the stock GE 5570 tubes for the iFi Pro iDSD DAC. The installation was pretty straightforward, except that the back panel is permanently attached via wires. It needs to be gently maneuvered through the main cover in order to access the tubes. FYI, I primarily use my iFi Pro in my main stereo system in my living room. I rarely listen to music through my Audeze EL-8 closed back headphones through this system. So my observations are exclusively based on using the iFi Pro in that configuration.
> ...



Awesome work, thanks!


----------



## Baten

iFi audio said:


> Awesome work, thanks!


Hi iFi! Any news on the Diablo DAC?


----------



## iFi audio

Baten said:


> Hi iFi! Any news on the Diablo DAC?



Nope, not yet.


----------



## datasyd

Another thanks to ifi Pro units for sounding as beautiful as they look.


----------



## jacofman

datasyd said:


> Another thanks to ifi Pro units for sounding as beautiful as they look.



Beautiful picture!


----------



## iFi audio

jacofman said:


> Beautiful picture!



Agreed!


----------



## Hoegaardener70

Hi I actually had planned to drive two or three headphones with the ifi Pro iCan for direct comparison. I now understand that this is rather dangerous and might damage my headphones. Could someone please advise me how to determine what pairing fits and which not, and how to calculate this? I know there is an ifi calculator, but no matter what headphone I chose, no data shows up (https://ifi-audio.com/home-2/headphone-calculator/). The headphones in question would be the focal utopia, Sennheiser hd800s, Sony Z1R and Meze Empyrean, all balanced. Thanks for your advice.


----------



## nikhilthemeal

Absolutely loving my Pro iDSD with the Sennheiser HD 820. Staging and detail to the max while being a fatigue free sound for extended listening!


----------



## jacofman

Could someone post a concrete step-by -step set of instructions as to how to link up the iFi Pro iDSD to the MUZO Player on an iPhone. I don’t seem to be able to figure it out. Thanks for your help in advance.


----------



## iFi audio

jacofman said:


> Could someone post a concrete step-by -step set of instructions as to how to link up the iFi Pro iDSD to the MUZO Player on an iPhone. I don’t seem to be able to figure it out. Thanks for your help in advance.



We're working on it ATM!


----------



## MLGrado (Jul 12, 2019)

iFi I am coming back into the fold.  Unfortunately my low serial number 'octa adopter' DSD Micro has given up its ghost (battery), but it is time to get off this journey through the various ESS based DAC, finally finding some satisfaction in one of those pro German DACs built around the latest AK chipsets, but nothing, nothing is voiced quite like an iFi product.

They just sound right, and I have missed it.

Chipsets can mean very little, but I am convinced you are correct, despite MAYBE not always living up to the expectations of the 'show me the measurement's crowd...... well,  measurements she-measurements and congrats on going the road less traveled and sticking with the BB thermometer code DACs that could convert true multi-bit PCM and 1 bit Delta Sigma at the same time, an ingenious solution to the zero crossing resolution weakness with PCM and at the same time overcoming the absolute resolution issues inherent in a 1 bit format.

BB was onto to something with that segment DAC that you guys have taken to heights they probably never dreamed of.  I am sure any Burr Brown engineer back in the 90's would have called anyone a crack head that said their DSD converter back when they came out with the DSD1700 ( basic concept still used _specifically_ for native DSD in the DSD1793 and others) it would eventually do 1 bit at 1024x!!!!

But all that matters is how does it sound, and how much enjoyment does it give ME .  And you guys just get the SOUND RIGHT.  I lurk through thousands of pages on here and other sites, and it gets frustrating we seem to be forgetting we are here for products we enjoy, sound good to US, and make us look forward to coming home from work, and maybe leading,, ahem,, to a divorce or two when one can't really decide what their first love truly is 


Okay, I am done, and I know no one really cares. The PM's that come on occasion that with very little paraphrasing "You are full of $hit" don't bother me anymore.  You can't take my joy away anymore   iFi sounds great, they know what they are doing, just jump on the train and enjoy the ride!!


----------



## iFi audio

MLGrado said:


> Okay, I am done, and I know no one really cares.



We do care, seriously. We always aim for lethal dose of musical content pouring out of our devices and are thrilled once it's acknowledged. You did just that so thank you!


----------



## xiamen

jacofman said:


> I love tube rolling. I bought 2 pairs of replacement tubes for the stock GE 5670. One was a pair of GE 1950s JG5670 Triple Micas, and the second was a pair of vintage WE396a's. I decided to put in the GE 5670 Triple Micas. The installation was a bit tricky for two reasons. First, the back plate is permanently attached to a wire so you can't completely remove it. You have to angle it through the unit's cover to completely remove the cover. A bit tricky, but if I can do it, anybody can do it. Second, the wifi antenna is a bit tricky to remove. There's a nut and a grommet that need to be removed at the base of the gold post. But you need to hold the post with a pair of pliers, gently, to get a grip on the bolt so that you can remove it and then the grommet. Again, I did it so anybody can do it. I reassembled everything after I swapped the tube set, and put the unit back into my home system. I don't do much headphone listening these days, so I mainly use the ifi iPro iDSD in my home system. I don't want to say too much about the sound quality yet because the tubes need to be broken in. But I can sum up the change in one word:
> WOWWWWW!!! Substantial increase in detail and major slam in the dynamics department. A full report to come soon on the sonic differences between the tube sets once the tubes are fully broken in. And BTW, our very own  "Bluesaint" really is a saint when it comes to buying tubes. The entire transaction was very professional and he gave me lots of information to boot. If you ever need tubes for your ifi (or anything else, for that matter) "Bluesaint" is the man.


Hi, Great that you have done this successfully. I am going to give this a shot. Will appreciate if you can help with a few questions:
1. So the wire attached to the back plate cannot be removed? Is this wire attached to the dac itself and can it be easily remove from the dac. Not sure what you mean by "angle it through the unit's cover to completely remove the cover". Do you mean the top cover? 

2. To remove the nut and grommet (after holding the post with pliers), do you need any equipment or can you just use your fingers?
3. Can the tubes be removed by simply pulling it out (that's how it's done with my tube amp)? Or do you need to do any twisting? If twisting is required, is it clockwise or counter clockwise?

Thanks.


----------



## iFi audio

xiamen said:


> 1. So the wire attached to the back plate cannot be removed? Is this wire attached to the dac itself and can it be easily remove from the dac. Not sure what you mean by "angle it through the unit's cover to completely remove the cover". Do you mean the top cover?



In a nutshell, Pro iDSD's front is fixed to the base plate with the main PCB and everything else on it. All this slides into internal rails of a sleeve alike main enclosure; its top, bottom and both sides are one. The machine's rear is detachable too. 



xiamen said:


> 2. To remove the nut and grommet (after holding the post with pliers), do you need any equipment or can you just use your fingers?



No special gear is needed.



xiamen said:


> 3. Can the tubes be removed by simply pulling it out (that's how it's done with my tube amp)? Or do you need to do any twisting? If twisting is required, is it clockwise or counter clockwise?



A simple pull will do, there's no need to twist anything. Of course the whole procedure requires mild amount of pressure and in general careful approach, but that's nothing new as far as tubes go.


----------



## xiamen

iFi audio said:


> In a nutshell, Pro iDSD's front is fixed to the base plate with the main PCB and everything else on it. All this slides into internal rails of a sleeve alike main enclosure; its top, bottom and both sides are one. The machine's rear is detachable too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I failed miserably to do this. Trying to unscrew the nut at the bottom of the wifi post using spanner anti clockwise. The nut seems to be turning but feels staying in same position. Can you help. Also, do I have to remove all the screws from the rear panel or just the 4 on the sides? Rhanks.


----------



## iFi audio

xiamen said:


> I failed miserably to do this. Trying to unscrew the nut at the bottom of the wifi post using spanner anti clockwise. The nut seems to be turning but feels staying in same position. Can you help. Also, do I have to remove all the screws from the rear panel or just the 4 on the sides? Rhanks.



It'd be easier if you could show us on pictures at what stage you're in right now (via PM please). Thanks!


----------



## ostewart

So here is my take on the Pro iDSD: 
https://www.soundperfectionreviews.com/2019/07/review-ifi-audio-pro-idsd.html


----------



## iFi audio

ostewart said:


> So here is my take on the Pro iDSD:
> https://www.soundperfectionreviews.com/2019/07/review-ifi-audio-pro-idsd.html



Thanks, great work!


----------



## jacofman

Just wanted to let you all know that I purchased the Sbooster 15-16 volt external power supply for the iFi Pro iDSD. When it worked, it sounded great. But it’s performance was so unpredictable and it often would not work, or worked problematically. So I am sadly returning it for a refund. I’m no technical wizard, but my guess is that it’s rated performance (15-16 volts and 2.5 amps) is simply a mismatch for what the iFi Pro iDSD needs. I thought I should write and save you all the trouble of experimenting with that particular power supply.


----------



## iFi audio

jacofman said:


> Just wanted to let you all know that I purchased the Sbooster 15-16 volt external power supply for the iFi Pro iDSD. When it worked, it sounded great. But it’s performance was so unpredictable and it often would not work, or worked problematically. So I am sadly returning it for a refund. I’m no technical wizard, but my guess is that it’s rated performance (15-16 volts and 2.5 amps) is simply a mismatch for what the iFi Pro iDSD needs. I thought I should write and save you all the trouble of experimenting with that particular power supply.



Thanks!


----------



## jacofman

jacofman said:


> Just wanted to let you all know that I purchased the Sbooster 15-16 volt external power supply for the iFi Pro iDSD. When it worked, it sounded great. But it’s performance was so unpredictable and it often would not work, or worked problematically. So I am sadly returning it for a refund. I’m no technical wizard, but my guess is that it’s rated performance (15-16 volts and 2.5 amps) is simply a mismatch for what the iFi Pro iDSD needs. I thought I should write and save you all the trouble of experimenting with that particular power supply.



After receiving the unit back, they checked it’s internal settings and said one of the adjustable settings was set incorrectly. When asked if I wanted to try it again, I decided to pass. So now it’s left to someone else to try it out and see if it works with the iFi Pro iDSD. Please let us all know what you find.


----------



## audiomonkey777

Hi guys, anyone tried iFi's new Powerstation with the their Pro gear yet? Or with anything else? Just wondering as I can't find much on it yet.


----------



## Baten

audiomonkey777 said:


> Hi guys, anyone tried iFi's new Powerstation with the their Pro gear yet? Or with anything else? Just wondering as I can't find much on it yet.


well it barely just released you see.


----------



## iFi audio

Baten said:


> well it barely just released you see.



True that, but numerous materials will start showing up soon.


----------



## jacofman

ostewart said:


> So here is my take on the Pro iDSD:
> https://www.soundperfectionreviews.com/2019/07/review-ifi-audio-pro-idsd.html



Could you please post your entire review here on this thread for everyone to see? Your link won’t take me there for some reason. Thank you!


----------



## iFi audio

jacofman said:


> Could you please post your entire review here on this thread for everyone to see? Your link won’t take me there for some reason. Thank you!



...or even better, here in the official Pro iDSD product page: https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/ifi-audio-pro-idsd-standalone-streamer-dacamp.23234/reviews

Also folks, not sure if you've seen it, but we're currently running a very simple competition with cool prizes here: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/show-us-your-vipers-nest.913722/


----------



## ostewart

jacofman said:


> Could you please post your entire review here on this thread for everyone to see? Your link won’t take me there for some reason. Thank you!



I will be putting it up here on head-fi, for the meantime whilst I migrate my website across to a new platform you can find it here: https://soundperfectionreviews.wordpress.com/2019/07/31/review-ifi-audio-pro-idsd/


----------



## audiomonkey777

Baten said:


> well it barely just released you see.



Okay - see some stuff popping up here: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/ifi-audio-powerstation-the-official-thread.912090/
Thanks all.


----------



## iFi audio

*Folks, BIG NEWS!*

Good people from NativeDSD shared with us something special, to now share it with you!

The following 5 tracks in DSD1024 are available now in this dropbox folder, delivered directly by NativeDSD's mastering engineer Tom Caulfield. 

JL003 Counting Frogs
JL009 The Sweetest Sounds 
JL002 Short People
40318 Vivaldi - Winter II. Largo
40719 Paganini - III. Rondo: Allegro spirituoso – Un poco più presto 
These files are humongous, but surely worth the effort! Enjoy!


----------



## holzohr

iFi audio said:


> *Folks, BIG NEWS!*
> 
> Good people from NativeDSD shared with us something special, to now share it with you!
> 
> ...



How to play them with the Pro iDSD, natively? Will be DSD1024 possible via its USB some day?


----------



## iFi audio (Sep 18, 2019)

holzohr said:


> How to play them with the Pro iDSD, natively? Will be DSD1024 possible via its USB some day?



We stand corrected. Not possible to play them natively. We'll double-check with our tech team.


----------



## aterville

iFi audio said:


> Pro iDSD handles DSD1024 files natively. It will handle them with no data manipulation along the road via USB.



Does not work with Foobar in USB its tops at DSD 256 ;-( any idea


----------



## iFi audio (Sep 18, 2019)

aterville said:


> Does not work with Foobar in USB its tops at DSD 256 ;-( any idea



You need a software capable of going higher.


----------



## holzohr

iFi audio said:


> Pro iDSD handles DSD1024 files natively. It will handle them with no data manipulation along the road via USB.



Wow! Could you please describe how you have managed this? Do I need a Windows system for DSD1024? I use Linux (Euphony Stylus and HQPlayer). DSD512 is the maximum here.


----------



## iFi audio (Sep 18, 2019)

holzohr said:


> Wow! Could you please describe how you have managed this? Do I need a Windows system for DSD1024? I use Linux (Euphony Stylus and HQPlayer). DSD512 is the maximum here.



OK, we mixed a thing or two. We'll get back to this subject shortly.


----------



## holzohr

iFi audio said:


> Four Burr-Brown d/a converters per Pro iDSD are stacked in our interleaved configuration, which in effect results in bypassed datasheet limitations of these chips. Linux won't do DSD1024 AFAIK.
> 
> We're into hardware capable of DSD1024 to make it future proof! Software is not our thing



Hmm.. it doesn't work with the Windows version of HQPlayer either. It refuses to play them. And the same as in Linux: DSD512 is maximum. I would like to know how did you play these DSD1024 files from nativeDSD with the Pro iDSD. Which OS and which player? Did you test/play them at all, natively?


----------



## iFi audio

holzohr said:


> Hmm.. it doesn't work with the Windows version of HQPlayer either. It refuses to play them. And the same as in Linux: DSD512 is maximum. I would like to know how did you play these DSD1024 files from nativeDSD with the Pro iDSD. Which OS and which player? Did you test/play them at all, natively?



We need to double-check some tech stuff with our tech team. Stay tuned!


----------



## Mightygrey

audiomonkey777 said:


> Hi guys, anyone tried iFi's new Powerstation with the their Pro gear yet? Or with anything else? Just wondering as I can't find much on it yet.


Listening to My ZMF Eikons over the Pro iDSD plugged into the Powerstation right now. The background is dead-silent, and I've never heard Ben Harper's "Burn to Shine" album shine so well. Playing via the 'Transient Aligned' filter + Tube mode. Very nice stuff.


----------



## iFi audio

holzohr said:


> Hmm.. it doesn't work with the Windows version of HQPlayer either. It refuses to play them. And the same as in Linux: DSD512 is maximum. I would like to know how did you play these DSD1024 files from nativeDSD with the Pro iDSD. Which OS and which player? Did you test/play them at all, natively?



OK, here's how it goes:

USB audio as currently defined is limited at a maximum of 768kHz/32Bit/2-Ch or DSD at an equivalent data rate (DSD512/2-CH).

Recording systems for DSD at this point max out at DSD256 (Merging Pyramix).

DSD512 is mainly used for software up-sampled PCM by some enthusiasts.

If set to no upsampling & Bitperfect(+), our iDSD Pro applies no digital processing and works for PCM as "bitperfect/non-oversampling/zero-oversampling/NOS/etc" DAC up to 768kHz/32Bit and for DSD as direct conversion system (no digital processing) up to DSD512.

As some customers desire upsampling to high sample rates and the sound of certain digital filters (e.g. the 16k very long symmetrical FIR "Transient Aligned" filter) we provide a FPGA based flexible upsampling engine, which can handle both DSD and PCM input to either 16X PCM or DSD512/1024 and DSD up to DSD256 to DSD512/1024.

DSD512 is always left untouched (namely native) as it is already upsampled and multiple upsampling processes in series are not recommended.

In effect the iDSD Pro can function across the whole gamut of DAC technologies, from non-oversampled PCM and direct DSD conversion to highly oversampled PCM or DS(D) systems with multiple digital filters.

It leaves the choice of what sounds best to the customer, instead of imposing some perceived ideal (whatever that Ideal may be) without alternative choices. This parallels the choice between solid state, tube & tube+ operation for the Analogue stages.

TL;DR: Pro iDSD does native DSD playback up to DSD512 (internally upsampled by this machine to DSD1024), as there are no native recordings above DSD256 and USB as is doesn't go above DSD512.


----------



## xiamen

iFi audio said:


> OK, here's how it goes:
> 
> USB audio as currently defined is limited at a maximum of 768kHz/32Bit/2-Ch or DSD at an equivalent data rate (DSD512/2-CH).
> 
> ...


How does the FPGA upsample say DSD64 to DSD1024? Is it a one step process? Not sure about your reason for not allowing upsampling of DSD512 to DSD1024. While recording max out at DSD256, you can get HD tracks from some vendors at higher or you can upsample offline using software such as HQplayer Pro. It will be nice to let user have the choice of upsample 512 to 1024 or not.


----------



## jacofman

iFi audio said:


> OK, we mixed a thing or two. We'll get back to this subject shortly.



Ok, can you be very concrete about this? Will the iFi Pro iDSD play these DSD 1024 files natively or even upsampled? If yes, what are the settings on the iFi Pro iDSD that will allow one to play these files? Will the screen read 1024? Which computer programs will play these files natively or upsampled? I use the latest version of Audirvana for Mac, and it quits every time I play these files. Help us out, please, because I still haven’t heard any of these files yet. Thanks for your help in advance.


----------



## xiamen (Sep 22, 2019)

jacofman said:


> Ok, can you be very concrete about this? Will the iFi Pro iDSD play these DSD 1024 files natively or even upsampled? If yes, what are the settings on the iFi Pro iDSD that will allow one to play these files? Will the screen read 1024? Which computer programs will play these files natively or upsampled? I use the latest version of Audirvana for Mac, and it quits every time I play these files. Help us out, please, because I still haven’t heard any of these files yet. Thanks for your help in advance.


I think I can answer that. For upsample to 1024, your source file can be anything except dsd512 or dsd1024. There is a button at the front second from the left where you can push a few times to show upsample to 512 or 1024. When playing 1024, the screen will display 45mhz or 49mhz.e


----------



## holzohr

jacofman said:


> Ok, can you be very concrete about this? Will the iFi Pro iDSD play these DSD 1024 files natively or even upsampled? If yes, what are the settings on the iFi Pro iDSD that will allow one to play these files? Will the screen read 1024? Which computer programs will play these files natively or upsampled? I use the latest version of Audirvana for Mac, and it quits every time I play these files. Help us out, please, because I still haven’t heard any of these files yet. Thanks for your help in advance.



You will need a Holo Spring II or Denafrips Terminator II or Denafrips Ares II to play these DSD 1024 files, natively. HQPlayer supports native playback and upsampling to DSD 1024.


----------



## Ultrainferno

We welcome our new writer, Matty, with his first review for Headfonia! 
He checks out the iFi audio Pro iDSD -> https://www.headfonia.com/ifi-audio-pro-idsd-review/


----------



## audiomonkey777

Mightygrey said:


> Listening to My ZMF Eikons over the Pro iDSD plugged into the Powerstation right now. The background is dead-silent, and I've never heard Ben Harper's "Burn to Shine" album shine so well. Playing via the 'Transient Aligned' filter + Tube mode. Very nice stuff.



Hey there - thanks for answering my question. I really need to up my audio game, so far I'm intoIFI stuff - nano BL, thinking about an xDSD. I've seen and read loads about the Pro range though and was looking at the new their PowerStation on another forum I've just joined, hence my question. Do you have other iFi gear? What would you recommend?


----------



## vonBaron

What tube's (beside WE 396A) you recomend to upgrade stock ones?


----------



## vonBaron

When I use USB > spidif converter Pro IDSD clock sync mode should be set to "standalone", right?


----------



## iFi audio

vonBaron said:


> When I use USB > spidif converter Pro IDSD clock sync mode should be set to "standalone", right?



If no external clock source is used, then yes.


----------



## iFi audio

Also folks, Pro iDSD Firmware v2.08 is now live on the website: https://ifi-audio.com/downloads/


----------



## xiamen

vonBaron said:


> What tube's (beside WE 396A) you recomend to upgrade stock ones?


Don't know. But I had put in a pair of WE 396A. Very good, I can recommend them. Expensive compared to the GE 5670 or even 5670 variants such as the 5 star.  I would say though if you are going to upgrade, may as well go for the best.


----------



## vonBaron

Yes i have pair WE396a but they don't work...


----------



## jacofman

vonBaron said:


> Yes i have pair WE396a but they don't work...


Contact “bluesaint” on this thread. He set me up with two pairs of tubes that work and sound great. One is a different version of the tubes supplied by iFi and the others were a pair of the WE396a’s. Best of luck.


----------



## bluesaint

jacofman said:


> Contact “bluesaint” on this thread. He set me up with two pairs of tubes that work and sound great. One is a different version of the tubes supplied by iFi and the others were a pair of the WE396a’s. Best of luck.



heh thx for the shoutout.  I actually have a premium set of JW variant from early 1950's of the WE396a that I guarantee works with iDSD/iCAN PRO as I had them briefly in my own setup before selling the unit.  Anyone interested can ping me.


----------



## iFi audio

xiamen said:


> But I had put in a pair of WE 396A.



They are a wee bit better, but also pricier in comparison to the GE5670.


----------



## xiamen

vonBaron said:


> Yes i have pair WE396a but they don't work...


The Pro iDSD layout does not make it easy to swap tubes. Very tight fit and have to be careful pushing the tube into the slot swith not a lot of base support. If they don't work, it is possible that you did not get it in properly. I would try again.


----------



## vonBaron (Oct 15, 2019)

xiamen said:


> The Pro iDSD layout does not make it easy to swap tubes. Very tight fit and have to be careful pushing the tube into the slot swith not a lot of base support. If they don't work, it is possible that you did not get it in properly. I would try again.


Yeah, at first two try it was very hard to take out GE5670 and put WE396A, i must wiggle tube around to take it out and put in. Itt's not user friendly tube swap.
I tested WE396A just like IFI support say's, one by one and one tube is working ok and other one truns ICan red.
I now wait for additional tube.


----------



## iFi audio

xiamen said:


> The Pro iDSD layout does not make it easy to swap tubes



It wasn't designed to make it easy at a cost of small enclosure any bigger, but also not as tight to make tube swaps impossible.


----------



## PinkyPowers

*From the Spirit of the Elders – A Review of the iFi Pro iDSD*
​


----------



## iFi audio

PinkyPowers said:


> *From the Spirit of the Elders – A Review of the iFi Pro iDSD*
> ​



Looks like ours, yes! Thanks!


----------



## Marutks

This review says that Topping DX7 Pro sounds almost as good as iDSD.  "only" 5 times cheaper


----------



## PinkyPowers

Marutks said:


> This review says that Topping DX7 Pro sounds almost as good as iDSD.  "only" 5 times cheaper



That's the reality of diminishing returns. If this comes as a surprise, you have much to learn about our hobby.


----------



## xiamen

Marutks said:


> This review says that Topping DX7 Pro sounds almost as good as iDSD.  "only" 5 times cheaper


Almost is never good enough


----------



## Sound Eq (Nov 15, 2019)

hi i have few questions:

1- do the tube modes take effect on when the ifi idsd pro is used just as a dac when connected to ifi ican pro, or are the tubes only in effect from the headphone out of the ifi idsd pro

2- what setting u advise when i want to use the ifi idsd pro as a dac to my stax amp, output mode( hifi or pro fixed or variable ) , as the stax amps i guess like to have dacs that have good power output

3- what is the sync mode in the back on the right where the words DARS and Stand alone ... are


----------



## iFi audio

Sound Eq said:


> hi i have few questions:
> 1- do the tube modes take effect on when the ifi idsd pro is used just as a dac when connected to ifi ican pro, or are the tubes only in effect from the headphone out of the ifi idsd pro



Pro iDSD's headphone out and line out are based on the same circuit, there's no separate headphone amplifier in this product. And yes, tube modes are always active if you turn them on on the product's front panel.



Sound Eq said:


> 2- what setting u advise when i want to use the ifi idsd pro as a dac to my stax amp, output mode( hifi or pro fixed or variable ) , as the stax amps i guess like to have dacs that have good power output



If your Stax amp has a volume control (and most likely it has it), you want to set your Pro iDSD in the Hifi fixed mode to bypass Pro iDSD's volume control. Fixed means volume control bypassed, variable means it's active. 



Sound Eq said:


> 3- what is the sync mode in the back on the right where the words DARS and Stand alone ... are



These settings are useful if you have a standalone word clock. Please see Pro iDSD manual, it's all explained in there.


----------



## Sound Eq

iFi audio said:


> Pro iDSD's headphone out and line out are based on the same circuit, there's no separate headphone amplifier in this product. And yes, tube modes are always active if you turn them on on the product's front panel.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



thanks so much, i am enjoying the heck out of my idsd pro which i bought yesterday, just wow, what a great combo ifi ican pro and ifi idsd pro


----------



## Sound Eq (Nov 17, 2019)

@iFi audio time to get into using the wifi capabilities of ifi idsd pro

This is the first time I will use wifi streaming, is there a detailed guide to set up wifi streaming using a laptop windows -- idsd pro-- qobuz and audrivana that I can follow.

update 1: I give up and would appreciate a detailed guide on how to use the wifi streaming capabilities using a windows laptop, I got my iphone to work with muzo app but i need my laptop to be the one that streams over wifi to idsd pro as that is one of the main selling points i bout the ifi idsd pro, but there is no detailed guide to do that , kindly please help

My goal is stream audrivana and qobuz to ifi idsd pro over wifi without any cables

Also I would like to ask which is better to choose ASIO or Wasapi exclusive mode in qobuz

also if anyone cam share their favorite settings when using ifi idsd pro as a dac with ifi ican pro , what filter u prefer and which mode tube or ss, thanks

now here is an observation, I am connecting both ifi idsd pro and chord hugo2 as dacs only to my ifi ican pro using same usb cables from supra, same rca cables and i noticed the volume output of hugo2 is higher than the ifi idsd pro so i have to turn up the volume on ifi ican pro when i use the ifi idsd pro as a dac compared to hugo2 to volume match on my ifi ican pro, i did not expect this to happen

then i tired connect xlr balanced cables from ifi idsd pro to ifi ican pro using but the volume did not change going that route, and not a big difference using xlr cables than rca from ifi dsd pro to ifi ican pro, that also was not expected I thought if I go fully balanced it will be better than using rca from idsd pro to ifi ican pro. I see that hugo2 has 3v rms output, while the ifi idsd pro has only 2.3v from rca in hifi fixed, i thing i should try pro fixed to get 5v output from the rca, i think my ifi ican pro can tolerate 5v output  from the ifi ican idsd pro.

update 2: for tonight i switched to fixed pro, man as if the ifi idsd pro as a dac came to live, and now we are talking, my advise is use fixed pro as this changes everything for the ifi dsd pro, it literally made the ifi idsd pro as a dac come to live instead of using the fixed hifi. Of course assuming ur amp can take in 5v and I am sure my ifi ican pro is designed to take in such input. Now the the hugo2 sounds less full and thinner and lower volume than my ifi idsd pro and everything sounds perfect. Changing to 5v made things sound fuller and more bodied, to be honest the hif fixed was not better than my hugo2 but now with the fixed pro the ifi idsd is demonstrating what it can do and sounds way better than my hugo2. My current settings are Tube+, GTO filter, no up sampling, using fixed pro -- RCA-- to my ifi ican pro. On my ifi ican pro I am on mid gain, and using my He1000SE balanced. What a dam combo to listen to I never heard my Hifiman HE1000SE sound like this so full bodied and organic sounding. If you have a great amp that can take in 5V you must try fixed pro in my opinion

Update 3; Here comes the 3rd update, well although I liked setting the ifi idsd pro to fixed pro, but I was a bit worried its an overkill into my ifi ican pro amp, and I oped to use the PRO VARIABLE setting in the idsd pro, so that now the ifi idsd pro works as a preamp into my ifi ican pro and I, setting the volume to 70% on the ifi idsd pro so i get more than 2.3 volts output from ifi idsd and then using the volume on ifi ican pro, I definitely dig this setting, somehow things sound smoother this way, full bodied and amazing. I think I will keep this setting. Also I am now using bit perfect + and on solid state on idsd pro. I think the sound stage is bigger using solid state than any tube settings.


all my tests are with Hifiman HE1000SE using a balanced cable

Finally @iFi audio back to why I posted is I really need your help in getting the wifi streaming to work from my windows laptop, please provide a detailed guide


----------



## iFi audio

Sound Eq said:


> thanks so much, i am enjoying the heck out of my idsd pro which i bought yesterday, just wow, what a great combo ifi ican pro and ifi idsd pro



You're welcome, enjoy!


----------



## iFi audio

Sound Eq said:


> @iFi audio time to get into using the wifi capabilities of ifi idsd pro
> 
> This is the first time I will use wifi streaming, is there a detailed guide to set up wifi streaming using a laptop windows -- idsd pro-- qobuz and audrivana that I can follow.
> 
> ...



Please see this post and some links in there to useful things: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/ifi-audio-pro-idsd-official-new-firmware-mqa-and-more.869144/


----------



## iFi audio

Also, thos of you who wanted Roon on Pro iDSD, please take a look at this vid of ours:


----------



## Sound Eq (Nov 19, 2019)

ok i need bit help from people who used this dac for some time

which setting gives the most musical warm setting when i connect the ifi dsd pro to ifi ican pro, and to achieve that where should i engage the tubes on the dac or amp, and what filter settings should i dial in

and in qobus which driver should i choose waspi or asio


----------



## vonBaron

Sound Eq said:


> ok i need bit help from people who used this dac for some time
> 
> which setting gives the most musical warm setting when i connect the ifi dsd pro to ifi ican pro, and to achieve that where should i engage the tubes on the dac or amp, and what filter settings should i dial in
> 
> and in qobus which driver should i choose waspi or asio


BP + 2x Tube mode give you most musiacal and warm sound.


----------



## iFi audio

vonBaron said:


> BP + 2x Tube mode give you most musiacal and warm sound.



Agreed.


----------



## Sound Eq

vonBaron said:


> BP + 2x Tube mode give you most musiacal and warm sound.


thanks for the answer

you mean BP+ or BP
2x tube you mean engage tube ( not tube+ ) on both amp and dac


----------



## iFi audio

Sound Eq said:


> you mean BP+ or BP
> 2x tube you mean engage tube ( not tube+ ) on both amp and dac



Our advice for you would be to try these options for yourself and see what works for you the best. But in general, tube options in our Pro range give warm sound, yes.


----------



## vonBaron

My Pro IDSD has about 80h playtime and its even better, with my Pro ICAN with WE396A tubes is pure dead end-game, gorgeous sound.
Thank's to IFI for make such great stuff, brilliant job!


----------



## xiamen

vonBaron said:


> My Pro IDSD has about 80h playtime and its even better, with my Pro ICAN with WE396A tubes is pure dead end-game, gorgeous sound.
> Thank's to IFI for make such great stuff, brilliant job!


If you check out https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/reviews/my-quest-for-a-new-dac-part-4-ifi-pro-idsd-and-friends-r748/, you may find a yellow brick road beyond the dead end-game. What they used in the article are outside my budget. But I use a gpsdo ocxo that I got from alixexpress as an external master clock and a Zerozone Leo linear psu. Takes me to another level with the Pro iDSD.


----------



## vonBaron

I will be tested very good linear PSU soon, i got USB card with TXCO clock and very good USB converter + great digital and analog cables.


----------



## Baten

xiamen said:


> If you check out https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/reviews/my-quest-for-a-new-dac-part-4-ifi-pro-idsd-and-friends-r748/, you may find a yellow brick road beyond the dead end-game. What they used in the article are outside my budget. But I use a gpsdo ocxo that I got from alixexpress as an external master clock and a Zerozone Leo linear psu. Takes me to another level with the Pro iDSD.


can you link the ocxo?


----------



## xiamen

Baten said:


> can you link the ocxo?



AU $482.55  5%OFF | High stability accuracy GPSDO GNSS Disciplined Oscillator Frequency Standard
https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/CKTd1cZa

You need a male bnc to male sma connector as well. Spec is more accurate than atomic clock. For gps, the dac needs to be under 3m to a window so you get reception.


----------



## Baten

xiamen said:


> AU $482.55  5%OFF | High stability accuracy GPSDO GNSS Disciplined Oscillator Frequency Standard
> https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/CKTd1cZa
> 
> You need a male bnc to male sma connector as well. Spec is more accurate than atomic clock. For gps, the dac needs to be under 3m to a window so you get reception.


Interesting!!


----------



## iFi audio

vonBaron said:


> My Pro IDSD has about 80h playtime and its even better, with my Pro ICAN with WE396A tubes is pure dead end-game, gorgeous sound.
> Thank's to IFI for make such great stuff, brilliant job!



Thank you and enjoy!


----------



## jacofman

Is the iFi Pro iDSD DAC Roon Ready? In other woads, if I install Roon on my MacBook Pro, will the iFi Pro iDSD read music files from the Roon software platform?


----------



## iFi audio

jacofman said:


> Is the iFi Pro iDSD DAC Roon Ready? In other woads, if I install Roon on my MacBook Pro, will the iFi Pro iDSD read music files from the Roon software platform?



It's not Roon ready on its own. Just recently we launched a handy tool that allows Pro iDSD to be used as a Roon endpoint, but this software works on Win only.


----------



## jacofman

iFi audio said:


> It's not Roon ready on its own. Just recently we launched a handy tool that allows Pro iDSD to be used as a Roon endpoint, but this software works on Win only.



So what does "on its own" mean? I gather that what you're saying is that if I bought the Roon software and installed it on my MacBook Pro, it would not work with the ifi Pro iDSD. What would I need to do to make it work? When will your software work on a Mac? Thanks for your help in advance.


----------



## xiamen

iFi audio said:


> It's not Roon ready on its own. Just recently we launched a handy tool that allows Pro iDSD to be used as a Roon endpoint, but this software works on Win only.


Where can I get this handy tool?


----------



## iFi audio

jacofman said:


> So what does "on its own" mean? I gather that what you're saying is that if I bought the Roon software and installed it on my MacBook Pro, it would not work with the ifi Pro iDSD. What would I need to do to make it work? When will your software work on a Mac? Thanks for your help in advance.



It means that Pro iDSD wasn't developed as a Roon endpoint product, but now we have a software that allows this product to be one. However this handy little program works only in Windows and it's unlikely we'll have it for Mac platforms.



xiamen said:


> Where can I get this handy tool?


----------



## gerb0075 (Nov 28, 2019)

@iFi audio

I just received two iDSD Pro units a couple of weeks ago. Frankly, I am highly disappointed with the considerable amount of noise/hash/hiss that both units exhibit.  After extensively analyzing every piece of my setup and researching the two Head-Fi forums, It is obvious to me that this noise emanates from within both of the iDSD Pros and is most likely due to a poor implementation of the WiFi subsystem.

I have never experienced any noise or interference with any of my other iFI products (iCan Pro, micro iDSD BL, Mercury 3.0 USB cable, iPurifier 2, iPurifier 3).  I deliberately waited before purchasing my iDSD Pro to get a unit with the 4.4mm Pentaconn headphone output AND in hopes that all of the bugs that had been reported by early adopters were resolved.

This noise is quite significant.  I hear it from both the iDSD Pro’s headphone outputs when used standalone, as well as the iCan Pro’s headphone outs when fed by the iDSD Pro as a DAC.  The noise is best described as an amalgamation of noise, hum, and hiss — whose character changes and is modulated when digital filters, DSD remastering, and input settings are adjusted.  It also appears related to the OLED display, as the spectral content of the noise changes with graphical changes in the display while some of the noise disappears when the display is fully shut off.  Regardless of what I do, there is always noticeable background noise even when both iDSD Pro units are just “idling” (i.e., no music is being played) and is present across all three (SS, Tube, Tube+) operational modes.  The noise is present with multiple headphones, none of which are highly sensitive IEMs.

Ultimately, the situation is particularly disturbing — and ironic — given the years of development work and focus on noise reduction put forth by iFi on this TOTL product.

Do you have any suggestions for eliminating the noise?  Is there more noise exhibited by the newer, 4.4mm units, versus the older 2.5mm units?  I have really loved my iFI products up to this point and greatly appreciate your contribution toward elevating the head-fi experience over these past several years.


----------



## Sound Eq

gerb0075 said:


> @iFi audio
> 
> I just received two iDSD Pro units a couple of weeks ago. Frankly, I am highly disappointed with the considerable amount of noise/hash/hiss that both units exhibit.  After extensively analyzing every piece of my setup and researching the two Head-Fi forums, It is obvious to me that this noise emanates from within both of the iDSD Pros and is most likely due to a poor implementation of the WiFi subsystem.
> 
> ...



man reading this does not relate to mine what so ever and i adore the ifi idsd pro, what noise are you even talking bout, r u using iems with ifi idsd pro, man for iems i think its always best to use a dap, any way my idsd pro rocks and i adore it


----------



## vonBaron

I just recived very good linear PSU for my IFI combo and results is great, sound is more dynamic, better detali, more air, blacker background.


----------



## gerb0075 (Nov 30, 2019)

Sound Eq said:


> man reading this does not relate to mine what so ever and i adore the ifi idsd pro, what noise are you even talking bout, r u using iems with ifi idsd pro, man for iems i think its always best to use a dap, any way my idsd pro rocks and i adore it


No, I am using Denon AH-A100 and Denon D7000.  I haven’t yet plugged in any of my iems — really.  Perhaps both of my units are defective, but noise has been mentioned on a number of occasions here on Head-Fi, especially in the iDSD Pro “Official - New Firmware” forum.  It has also been mentioned in some professional reviews.


----------



## Sound Eq

gerb0075 said:


> No, I am using Denon AH-A100 and Denon D7000.  I haven’t yet plugged in any of my iems — really.  Perhaps both of my units are defective, but noise has been mentioned on a number of occasions here on Head-Fi, especially in the iDSD Pro “Official - New Firmware” forum.  It has also been mentioned in some professional reviews.


that is strange


----------



## xiamen

Sound Eq said:


> that is strange


May be you can re-flesh the firmware to same or different version to see if it makes any difference.


----------



## Sound Eq

xiamen said:


> May be you can re-flesh the firmware to same or different version to see if it makes any difference.


my comment was a reply to  gerb0075 who has noise issues, while mine works perfectly and its strange that gerb0075 has all this noise issue


----------



## iFi audio

gerb0075 said:


> Perhaps both of my units are defective, but noise has been mentioned on a number of occasions here on Head-Fi, especially in the iDSD Pro “Official - New Firmware” forum. It has also been mentioned in some professional reviews.



We're investigating this and thank you fro your feedback. Can you please open up a ticket here and let us know what is exacly wrong: http://support.ifi-audio.com/

Thanks!


----------



## jacofman

iFi audio said:


> It means that Pro iDSD wasn't developed as a Roon endpoint product, but now we have a software that allows this product to be one. However this handy little program works only in Windows and it's unlikely we'll have it for Mac platforms.




Would using the Roon Nucleus work with the iFi Pro iDSD?


----------



## iFi audio

jacofman said:


> Would using the Roon Nucleus work with the iFi Pro iDSD?



Our app needs to be engaged in Windows. So if Roon Nucleus is based on this OS and our software can be enabled and set it in there, then it should work. Otherwise, nope.


----------



## iFi audio

Woohoooo! Our Pro iDSD won the Sound+Image 2020 award in the "DAC / HEADPHONE AMP OVER $1000" category. Yeah!

https://www.avhub.com.au/news/sound-image/sound-image-awards-2020-music-sources-534319


----------



## dmk300

jacofman said:


> Would using the Roon Nucleus work with the iFi Pro iDSD?


I use my Pro iDSD with a SonicTransporter i5 which is similar to the Nucleus. Here is my setup: SonicTransporter connected to router via ethernet.  Sonore ultraRendu connected to router via ethernet. iDSD connected to ultraRendu via USB. Roon sees the ultraRendu as an endpoint and it all works just great. Controlled by iMac and I use an iPad as a remote. No problems at all. Hope this helps.


----------



## gerb0075 (Dec 4, 2019)

gerb0075 said:


> @iFi audio
> 
> I just received two iDSD Pro units a couple of weeks ago. Frankly, I am highly disappointed with the considerable amount of noise/hash/hiss that both units exhibit.  After extensively analyzing every piece of my setup and researching the two Head-Fi forums, It is obvious to me that this noise emanates from within both of the iDSD Pros and is most likely due to a poor implementation of the WiFi subsystem.
> 
> ...



@iFi audio

A quick update regarding my noise issue.  I’m happy to report that 90 percent or so of the noise has disappeared after allowing one of the iDSD Pro units to sit a few days disconnected from the mains power, then attaching the wifi aerial to the wifi terminal on the rear of the unit.  After reconnecting to the mains, most of the noise I had previously experienced is no longer present.

I had initially assumed that connecting the wifi antenna would increase noise, but it seems that it may have reduced it. In any event, I will report back should the noise resurface or if I gain any further insight.


----------



## iFi audio

gerb0075 said:


> @iFi audio
> 
> A quick update regarding my noise issue.  I’m happy to report that 90 percent or so of the noise has disappeared after allowing one of the iDSD Pro units to sit a few days disconnected from the mains power, then attaching the wifi aerial to the wifi terminal on the rear of the unit.  After reconnecting to the mains, most of the noise I had previously experienced is no longer present.
> 
> I had initially assumed that connecting the wifi antenna would increase noise, but it seems that it may have reduced it. In any event, I will report back should the noise resurface or if I gain any further insight.



Thanks for this feedback. If something unexpected and not pleasant happens, please don't hesitate and let us know! Thanks!


----------



## gerb0075

vonBaron said:


> I just recived very good linear PSU for my IFI combo and results is great, sound is more dynamic, better detali, more air, blacker background.


What linear PSU did you purchase?  Thanks.


----------



## vonBaron

I didin't purchase it, just loan but it's worth buying.
Its form my local audio manufacture https://www.lucartoaudio.pl/produkty/Zasilacz-liniowy-mocy-LPS


----------



## jacofman

How can you tell which version of the iFi firmware your iFi Pro iDSD is using?


----------



## Dr. Udo Brömme

I have an iDsd / iCan pro combo and an Amp with Speakers connected to the iCan. They are wired via Xlr cabels. 

Can I set the iDsd to Pro (fixed) mode? Does the iCan decetects that automatically? And does this affect the connected speakeramplifier?

Happy New Year
Udo


----------



## iFi audio

Dr. Udo Brömme said:


> I have an iDsd / iCan pro combo and an Amp with Speakers connected to the iCan. They are wired via Xlr cabels.
> 
> Can I set the iDsd to Pro (fixed) mode? Does the iCan decetects that automatically? And does this affect the connected speakeramplifier?
> 
> ...



Yup, iDSD should be set to fixed to bypass its volume control. But let us ask you about your amp and speakers?


----------



## Dr. Udo Brömme

Right now it is set to hifi (fixed), but I have read that pro should sound better. 

I am not sure if the iCan pro passes the 11,2 V to my advance paris bx1 amp. Or should I leave the iDsd in hifi mode?


----------



## jacofman

I’d still appreciate an answer to my question:

“How can you tell which version of the iFi firmware your iFi Pro iDSD is using?”

Thanks!


----------



## iFi audio

jacofman said:


> I’d still appreciate an answer to my question:
> 
> “How can you tell which version of the iFi firmware your iFi Pro iDSD is using?”
> 
> Thanks!



Have you seen this page?

https://ifi-audio.com/downloads/



Dr. Udo Brömme said:


> Right now it is set to hifi (fixed), but I have read that pro should sound better.
> 
> I am not sure if the iCan pro passes the 11,2 V to my advance paris bx1 amp. Or should I leave the iDsd in hifi mode?



Ideally you'd want to connect your amp directly to Pro iDSD and regulate its volume via Pro iDSD. In this scenario you'd have to set your iDSD's outputs as 'hifi variable'. The goal here is to have as short signal path as possible. Since you don't need Pro iCAN for your amps, Pro iDSD to your amp is what we'd suggest.  

But if you'd like to have Pro iDSD and Pro iCAN connected all the time and still be able to use your bx1 amp, then on your Pro iDSD you need to disengage its volume control (set the rear knob on hifi fixed). Now your Pro iDSD will send signal to your Pro iCAN's balanced inputs. Then you go from your Pro iCAN's balanced outputs to your amp.

TL;DR: 

your amp connected to Pro iDSD = hifi variable
your amp connected to Pro iCAN and Pro iDSD = Pro iCAN in 'hifi variable' mode, Pro iDSD in 'hifi fixed' mode.


----------



## jacofman

iFi audio said:


> Have you seen this page?
> 
> https://ifi-audio.com/downloads/
> 
> Thanks for getting back to me. If I’m not mistaken, this just offers you the opportunity to download and install the latest firmware as of October, 2019. I have in fact installed that firmware version—I think. This is the point of my question. I’d like to see if my installation took hold. Otherwise, I just have to assume the installation was successful. Any way to visually verify your current firmware version? Thanks in advance.


----------



## xiamen

Just start the firmware update program again (just start it, don't run it). The first screen shows you the current version. You can then exit without running the update again.


----------



## iFi audio

xiamen said:


> Just start the firmware update program again (just start it, don't run it). The first screen shows you the current version. You can then exit without running the update again.


----------



## iFi audio (Jan 17, 2020)

Self-taught acoustic guitar singer-songwriter David Elias lives in Hawaii. He has played music all his life. He has written songs since earliest teen years.

He became an adventurous musician online in the earliest Internet days and began self-producing a seemingly endless menu of music and styles, settings, backing bands and artists on his own label Sketti Sandwich Productions.

In the early 2000's he helped pioneer some of the first hi-res technologies (DSD) to create the most realistic listening reproductions for listeners in both stereo and surround sound as if you are in the studio with the artists performing.

Read what David has to say about iFi's Pro iDSD: https://art-of-listening.com/…/the-ultimate-media-refactor…/


----------



## jacofman

In the recent review of the iFi Pro iDSD, it mentioned that you could hook up your tv to the DAC. On the tv end, there is a mini plug for the “optical out”. I cannot find a digital optical cable with a mini on one end and an RCA on the other end to be used as an optical cable. What kind of cable is one supposed to use for this application? Can you actually show a link for such a cable? Thank you!


----------



## iFi audio

jacofman said:


> On the tv end, there is a mini plug for the “optical out”. I cannot find a digital optical cable with a mini on one end and an RCA on the other end to be used as an optical cable.



On the Pro iDSD's rear you have a coaxial/optical combo input. This means that optical input is inside of coaxial RCA input.


----------



## jacofman

iFi audio said:


> On the Pro iDSD's rear you have a coaxial/optical combo input. This means that optical input is inside of coaxial RCA input.


Thank you for your speedy response, but I’m still at a loss as to what cable I’m supposed to use. Can you send a link for an actual cable that would fit those parameters I mentioned? That would really be helpful. Thanks in advance.


----------



## iFi audio

jacofman said:


> Thank you for your speedy response, but I’m still at a loss as to what cable I’m supposed to use. Can you send a link for an actual cable that would fit those parameters I mentioned? That would really be helpful. Thanks in advance.



You need to put the optical plug (like the one on the photo below) on your optical cable end, and then that plug you insert deep into Pro iDSD's coaxial RCA input.


----------



## MikeyFresh

jacofman said:


> In the recent review of the iFi Pro iDSD, it mentioned that you could hook up your tv to the DAC. On the tv end, there is a mini plug for the “optical out”. I cannot find a digital optical cable with a mini on one end and an RCA on the other end to be used as an optical cable. What kind of cable is one supposed to use for this application? Can you actually show a link for such a cable? Thank you!


You want a Toslink to Mini Optical (also called mini Toslink) cable, like this one:  https://www.amazon.com/KabelDirekt-...toslink+to+mini+optical&qid=1581119329&sr=8-3

Or if you already own a standard Toslink cable, then you can use an adapter on one end of it like the one pictured in the above post.


----------



## jacofman

iFi audio said:


> You need to put the optical plug (like the one on the photo below) on your optical cable end, and then that plug you insert deep into Pro iDSD's coaxial RCA input.


Thank you so much.


----------



## iFi audio

jacofman said:


> Thank you so much.



Sure, you're welcome!


----------



## jacofman

So I got the correct adapters which were needed on both ends—the TV end and the iDSD end. The one on the TV end fit quite snugly, but I could not get the one on the iDSD end in far enough into the RCA plug to make a snug fit. I don’t want to force it in because it seems like it just doesn’t fit. Any suggestions?


----------



## vonBaron

What filter of Pro IDSD has the smoothes treble (except BP)?


----------



## iFi audio

vonBaron said:


> What filter of Pro IDSD has the smoothes treble (except BP)?



Have you tried GTO?


----------



## 347strokin

I'm really enjoying what I'm reading about the idsd. But what kills it for me is the lack of input control from the remote. Ifi, do you ever see this somehow being implemented on this unit down the road? I realize it would require a different remote obviously, but is it doable? 

Thanks!


----------



## iFi audio

347strokin said:


> I realize it would require a different remote obviously, but is it doable?



A different remote and internal changes. It's unlikely we'd go this route.


----------



## 347strokin

Thanks for the reply.


----------



## vonBaron

I'm testing my new linear PSU to Pro IDSD and ICan and those IFI Bricks are nothing compered to good quality PSU.
Both IFI are now on another SQ level.
Im not looking on new DAC or AMP anymore!


----------



## xcom

vonBaron said:


> I'm testing my new linear PSU to Pro IDSD and ICan and those IFI Bricks are nothing compered to good quality PSU.
> Both IFI are now on another SQ level.
> Im not looking on new DAC or AMP anymore!



Mind sharing linear PSU?


----------



## vonBaron

Sure https://www.lucartoaudio.pl/produkty/Zasilacz-liniowy-mocy-LPS


----------



## xcom

vonBaron said:


> Sure https://www.lucartoaudio.pl/produkty/Zasilacz-liniowy-mocy-LPS



Thanks, looks very nice. Looking for something similar here in the states.


----------



## vonBaron

Looks only good but important is what is inside.
I hope you will find something similar.


----------



## holospringfan

vonBaron said:


> Sure https://www.lucartoaudio.pl/produkty/Zasilacz-liniowy-mocy-LPS


this PSU looks amazing. do you mind sharing which configuration you ordered? which options?(mundorf, ...)


----------



## vonBaron (Apr 6, 2020)

Sure, two sections, one with Mundorf 15V/4A (i will be upgraded it to 17V/6A becouse heat is too big) and one standard 12V/4A for my converter, and better IEC connector and of course DC-loop cable. 
Maybe Lucarto will ship them to another country, it's worth to ask them.
I can't imagine going back to IFi bricks now.


----------



## alexdemaet

iFi audio said:


> Yes it is possible but only volume control is currently available on iDSD Pro. We may at some time consider making other functions available.


Which alternative remote control can be used?


----------



## xcom

alexdemaet said:


> Which alternative remote control can be used?



I am interested on this as well.


----------



## iFi audio

alexdemaet said:


> Which alternative remote control can be used?



As in RC wand? None as far as I know.


----------



## alexdemaet

iFi audio said:


> Yes it is possible but only volume control is currently available on iDSD Pro. We may at some time consider making other functions available.


----------



## iFi audio

alexdemaet said:


>



Please see here: https://support.ifi-audio.com/kb/faq.php?id=219


----------



## xcom

I have purchased a learning remote control, I will report back my findings.


----------



## iFi audio

xcom said:


> I have purchased a learning remote control, I will report back my findings.



Yup. please do!


----------



## jacofman

Is this still true today:

*"MQA - Showing OFS instead of MQB? *
Question: When playing MQA files via Roon with any form of DSP processing being done in Roon, iDSD display states "OFS" instead of "MQA".

Answer: This behaviour is mandated by MQA, a DSP processed stream is called "MQB" by MQA LTD and the display must show OFS instead of MQA."

If it isn't true any longer, how do we get the DAC to read MQA?


----------



## iFi audio

jacofman said:


> Is this still true today:
> 
> *"MQA - Showing OFS instead of MQB? *
> Question: When playing MQA files via Roon with any form of DSP processing being done in Roon, iDSD display states "OFS" instead of "MQA".
> ...



Have you seen this?


----------



## jacofman

iFi audio said:


> Have you seen this?
> 
> After watching the video, it looks like the Bridge program can be used only on PC’s. I only have Apple MacBook Pros available to use. Is there a Mac version of the Bridge program?


----------



## iFi audio

Nope, the iBrdge works only on Win OS, sorry!


----------



## vonBaron

If you want network playback buy youself a good streamer.


----------



## jacofman

vonBaron said:


> If you want network playback buy youself a good streamer.


I already did.I bought the Sonic Transporter i5 and the ultraRendu from Small Green Computer. I love the gear and highly recommend them to anyone. But you still need a DAC, and it would be nice, but not absolutely necessary, that it reads "MQA" instead of "OFS".


----------



## jacofman

jacofman said:


> I already did.I bought the Sonic Transporter i5 and the ultraRendu from Small Green Computer. I love the gear and highly recommend them to anyone. But you still need a DAC, and it would be nice, but not absolutely necessary, that it reads "MQA" instead of "OFS".


May I ask why you guys haven't worked out an equivalent for Mac users? There are a good number of Mac-using audiophiles and it would be nice to have that option.Thanks for your consideration.


----------



## Vitaly2017

Hi I been studying specs and functionality of idsd but is it true that you can only read max dsd 64 and 32/192 when playing music from the inserted micro sd card???

The rest seems to be perfection


----------



## iFi audio

jacofman said:


> May I ask why you guys haven't worked out an equivalent for Mac users?



It's something we'd like to do in the future, but there's no ETA on it yet.


----------



## jacofman

iFi audio said:


> It's something we'd like to do in the future, but there's no ETA on it yet.


Ok, good to know. Thanks!


----------



## iFi audio

jacofman said:


> Ok, good to know. Thanks!



Sure, anytime!


----------



## jacofman

Has anyone compared the potential sonic benefits of both the SBooster Linear Power Supply and the Uptone Audio UltraCap LPS-1.2 with the iFi Pro iDSD DAC? If so, which one did you like better and why? Curious minds want to know.


----------



## iFi audio

jacofman said:


> Curious minds want to know.



True, true. It's also interesting for us to see what our customers can do with their iFi products. 

Also, can I please ask you folks to take a look at our site? 

https://ifi-audio.com/

Recently we did some changes to make it more readble and easier to use, so your feedback is highly appreciated!


----------



## tommir

Looks easier to navigate and more transparent. I like it.


----------



## iFi audio

tommir said:


> Looks easier to navigate and more transparent. I like it.



Thanks!


----------



## jacofman

iFi audio said:


> Thanks!


Can someone explain what the Ethernet port on the iFi Pro does? Is it a potential substitute for the USB connection? In other words, could you connect a streamer with ROON directly to the iFi Pro Ethernet port and get full connectivity—ROON, Tidal, and music from the attached hard drive?  Or am I confused about what Ethernet does on the iFi Pro?


----------



## iFi audio

jacofman said:


> Can someone explain what the Ethernet port on the iFi Pro does? Is it a potential substitute for the USB connection? In other words, could you connect a streamer with ROON directly to the iFi Pro Ethernet port and get full connectivity—ROON, Tidal, and music from the attached hard drive? Or am I confused about what Ethernet does on the iFi Pro?



It's a streaming component. Please see the manual: https://media.ifi-audio.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Pro-iDSD-User-Manual.pdf

As for Roon, Pro iDSD isn't a regular Roon endpoint, but can be, please see this vid about our iBridge:


----------



## jacofman

I think my iFi Pro iDSD might have developed a new technical problem. Last night I switched the filter from BitPerfect to BitPerfect+. This morning, when I went to switch it back to Bit Perfect, it said BitPerfect in every turn of the filter dial. So I restarted the unit, and now it says “N/A” every time I turn the filter dial. There aren’t any special conditions under which the filter dial works or doesn’t work, right? It should work under any condition, right? I hope I haven’t had a brain fart and forgotten how the filter dial works. Would it help if I reset the unit to factory conditions? If so, how does one do that? Thanks for your help in advance.


----------



## jacofman

Referring to my previous post, does changing the filter only work when there’s no music playing? I just stopped the music and checked and it’s working again.


----------



## iFi audio

jacofman said:


> There aren’t any special conditions under which the filter dial works or doesn’t work, right? It should work under any condition, right? I hope I haven’t had a brain fart and forgotten how the filter dial works. Would it help if I reset the unit to factory conditions? If so, how does one do that? Thanks for your help in advance.



Nothing special is needed, that filter dial's rotations should cycle through filters during music playback and even if there's none. The product turned on/off should be back to normal. If it doesn't, I'd suggest opening a ticket here: https://support.ifi-audio.com/

Just to make sure, your Pro iDSD now operates normally?


----------



## jacofman

iFi audio said:


> Nothing special is needed, that filter dial's rotations should cycle through filters during music playback and even if there's none. The product turned on/off should be back to normal. If it doesn't, I'd suggest opening a ticket here: https://support.ifi-audio.com/
> 
> Just to make sure, your Pro iDSD now operates normally?


If you say the filter dial should be working properly whether music is playing or not, then no, it’s not working properly. When no music is playing, it works properly to change filters. When there’s music playing, the screen reads “N/A”.


----------



## iFi audio

jacofman said:


> If you say the filter dial should be working properly whether music is playing or not, then no, it’s not working properly. When no music is playing, it works properly to change filters. When there’s music playing, the screen reads “N/A”.





ninjashark121 said:


> Yeah it should work under any condition, maybe contact customer support?



Yes, I'd suggest opening up a ticket here: https://support.ifi-audio.com/

Or, if you're up for re-installing firmware, you could try this procedure first.


----------



## MLGrado (Jun 18, 2020)

FINALLY.  I have one.  Going to listen to it for at least a week before I make any substantial comments, but I like it so far.  Direct comparison will be with an RME ADI-2 DAC fs.  (4490 chip)

I will say a few little things. 

1.  This thing just WORKS.  One could worry that with all the features, it would understandably falter a time or two but everything works so smoothly.  No strange noises, no problems with any formats, any mode, etc. Everything on this DAC just works and works very well.  That is a serious compliment considering all that is packed under the hood.

2. It is very easy to figure out.  I saw some complaints about the manual, and I can see where a real newbie could get lost, but, for anyone who is familiar with these products, setup is extremely easy and everything is clearly marked.  Compared to the RME DAC, it is a relative breeze to configure, trust me.  Granted the RME has the kind of manual you wish every product had.  But never once have I felt lost setting up the iFi iDSD Pro, and any question I had about configuration was explained well in the manual. 

3. So far as is usually the case for me, and has always been the case with iFi DAC's, I prefer converting everything in its native format.  So no DSD upsampling for me, and all PCM is played back with the BitPerfect filter(s). 

Okay.. back to the music!


----------



## MLGrado (Jun 19, 2020)

jacofman said:


> I think my iFi Pro iDSD might have developed a new technical problem. Last night I switched the filter from BitPerfect to BitPerfect+. This morning, when I went to switch it back to Bit Perfect, it said BitPerfect in every turn of the filter dial. So I restarted the unit, and now it says “N/A” every time I turn the filter dial. There aren’t any special conditions under which the filter dial works or doesn’t work, right? It should work under any condition, right? I hope I haven’t had a brain fart and forgotten how the filter dial works. Would it help if I reset the unit to factory conditions? If so, how does one do that? Thanks for your help in advance.



Sorry, I just properly read about your situation. My bad!  Ignore this post


----------



## iFi audio

MLGrado said:


> FINALLY.  I have one.  Going to listen to it for at least a week before I make any substantial comments, but I like it so far.  Direct comparison will be with an RME ADI-2 DAC fs.  (4490 chip)
> 
> I will say a few little things.
> 
> ...



Hey, congrats and enjoy your new machine! Also, thanks a lot for your feedback!


----------



## iFi audio

Is Pro iDSD and Pro iCAN the best amp/DAC stack out there? I have no idea, but Joshua Valour addressed this question in truly great fashion. Please see this vid!


----------



## dstubked

I would really like to tube roll so I took out 4 really long screws from the back panel but I couldn't quite "slide" the cover out. Am I missing anything?


----------



## vonBaron

Yes 
You must take out all screws.


----------



## iFi audio

dstubked said:


> I would really like to tube roll so I took out 4 really long screws from the back panel but I couldn't quite "slide" the cover out. Am I missing anything?



Yes, most likely all screws on the the rear panel. Once that's done, you should be able to draw out the internal PCB with the front attached to it.


----------



## MLGrado

be VERY careful in there when rolling. Don't use too much pressure.  Just enough to get the job done.  Some very light 'wiggling' left and right in necessary to remove, and as little force as possible to insert.  

I have nightmares about destroying the input socket of my first Icon Audio HP8 M2 headamp and it had ceramic sockets secured to the chassis!.  I learned that day how the obession of tube rolling can and will break things.  In that particular case, owning a couple hundred NOS or lightly used (some more 'lightly' that others.. grrr) tubes and rolling 5 times a day is murder on even the most robust sockets.  

I decided to keep that one as a parts unit, and bought a brand new one.  Wow.. Much tighter connections, better sound, cleaner point to point wiring etc... still no chances taken.. put in a socket saver until I decided on ONE to leave in for ever.  

Inside the iFi you are dealing with PCB mounted sockets, and you need to respect that with great care.  iFi can say more about it I am sure.  Be careful when you do it.


----------



## MLGrado (Jul 3, 2020)

As for me, still in review phase.  I will explain more later, but since I first was converted and "saw/heard" the light at my first ever high end audio store in 2006, (the system was an entry level SimAudio integrated solid state amp, entry level Sim CD player, and the glorious Von Schweikert VR-4 Jr speakers wired with Analysis Plus oval cables), I was DUMBFOUNDED how good reproduced audio could actually sound.  I eventually saved the 4 grand to buy that pair of speakers, but chose to pair it with clearance deals on Conrad Johnson Separates.. MV60SE amp and PV15 pre.  WOW.  There is a certain nirvana like experience where you are no longer listening to sounds and notes and technical details.  You find your mind transcended about all that and all that there is is the music, and what feels like a direct, telepathic like connection with it.  Its difficult to explain, but you know it when you hear it.  Its a difficult rabbit hole to track down, and at least at the time the price of admission was formidable.

6 years ago I thought I would maximize my $$$$ and go for the best headphone listening can offer.  I think I may have felt that familiar old feeling of musical nirvana from back in 2006 a few times here and there.  Certainly have heard some very impressive technical feats.  But the biggest compliment I can give the iFi iDSD Pro, and this is before I have even started the review, i have found myself once again trancended in some nirvana like way where the equipment, the format, whatever is just out of the way and no longer a factor.  I am caught in the exstacy that is the music, where I can listen for hours, with jaw dropped at the pure musical connection and communication that is coming through.

The iFi iDSD is making these moments many, many times over compared to any other DAC I have put in any headphone system I have configured since 2014.

Actually one might think an in depth review is no longer necessary after that statement.  No, that not the case, but, it is the highest of compliment I can give a piece of gear.

I just WANT to listen to it. Over and over and over.  5 hour sessions feel like 5 minutes.  Time suspends.  Yeah, its almost metaphysical crap I am talking now but I am not ashamed or afraid of the ridicule to come from the "measurements over all else" oppressors.  Probably going to get a few PM's that tell me I am 'full of $hit' and then they run.  Yes, that happens believe it or not.   Thankfully now I am much more confident in both me ears and in what I know.  Still very much a layman when it comes to the technology, but what I do know has comes from countless hours of research and lots and lots of questions answered by engineers from several top audio companies. 

One thing I really can't figure out, though, is how the hell Stereophile has this as a class B component.  Respectable, yes.  But there is stuff on the class A and class A+ list that just do NOT deserve to be above the iFi.  As good as some of these new Pro-ject ESS based DACs are and as good a value as they are, there is NO WAY they are an A+ component compared to this.

I have lost a lot of faith in the big boy magazines. (Sans Paul Miller's stuff.  He seems to get it)  More and more it is clear you just need to listen to what your ears say.  Too bad the audition process these days denies that kind of potential buyer connection one had with the specialty brick and mortar stores where you could set back and experience yourself first, unbiased by some quirk in the notoriously difficult to configure Audio Precision stuff)

So to end this bit more than a 'teaser' review than planned, just remember ears over what your eyes read about someone else's measurement equipment.


----------



## dstubked

Hey I totally agree with what you wrote. I can’t see why this is class B. To be honest, the pro iDSD is on track to replace the PS Audio directstream digital in my system..

The only thing quirk I see is the fact that there are 40+ different combinations of sound sig we can explore. Can be a good and bad thing.


----------



## MLGrado (Jul 3, 2020)

dstubked said:


> Hey I totally agree with what you wrote. I can’t see why this is class B. To be honest, the pro iDSD is on track to replace the PS Audio directstream digital in my system..
> 
> The only thing quirk I see is the fact that there are 40+ different combinations of sound sig we can explore. Can be a good and bad thing.



thankfully for me I have already settled in on what I like.  And it follows my personal 'philosophy' on digital audio.  Also, I don't want to put words in Thorsten Loesch's mouth, so iFi, please correct me if I am wrong, but I believe his ideas on best digital sound are similar.  That is, as little change to the original data as possible, converting it in its native format.  So I stay away from all the upsampling/oversampling stuff, even though the DSD remastering engine is EXTREMELY powerful stuff.  I am not sure if people really appreciate the complexity of what is going on here.  PCM to DSD conversion at various rates = not too crazy a thing but upconversion of DSD to higher rate DSD IS a whole different matter.  DSD in at its original recorded rate is already ripe for conversion.. only one DSP step and that is conversion into the analog domain via the digital FIR filter made with discrete analog parts.  That is and has always been the 'promise' of DSD... a very simple conversion process that preserves essential time domain information.  Now where DSD upconversion (done well... not an easy task) can be superior is system dependent.  How the entire signal chain responds to the ultrasonic noise profile in the analog domain can make an upconverted file sound superior to the original. 

To me, as for now, I am still finding that PCM converted via Bit-Perfect filter, and DSD conversion as is with no alterations sounds best. ESPECIALLY native recorded DSD256 files that are simple live stereo takes.  Oh My Word.  

Maybe the Stereophile review I was referencing John Atkinson just got overwhelmed with all the possibilities.  I know for a fact some of the noise floor 'anomalies' he found were while using the Bit-Perfect filter, and it was behaving exactly as you would expect the DSD1793 chip to behave given that iFi has it working in a custom configuration with the onboard 8x oversampler turned off.  The original Japanese (before TI took over) engineers never intended the chip to be implemented that way, therefore the Delta-Sigma side of the segment DAC at lower speeds like 44.1 or 48khz oversamples then with a slower clock which naturally leads to a bit more ultrasonic noise that may be barely audible on some systems.  (the rise is clearly indicated in their measurement graphic)  Instead of trying to learn why it works that way he just seems to throw hands in the air and I took it as something of a slight against iFi engineering.  I don't know JA so I could be very, very wrong but I still stand by my opinion that he could have asked iFi what was going there and would have gotten a satisfactory response.  I am afraid little observations  like that which go against the 'norm' causes products to 'lose points' regardless if the measurement tech actually listened to the thing at all. 

For reassurance of the tech performance of the iDSD Pro, check out HiFi News and Paul Miller's review.  Miller was one of the early proponents of the Jtest and for the elimination of jitter in digital audio in search of a more 'analog' like sound.  He doesn't publish as many graphs; really, they aren't necessary for a review.  Just a few highlights and comments, on he finds the jitter reduction on the iDSD Pro (under 40 picoseconds) to be state of the art, and remember this is being done with a chipset made in the 90's and doesn't rely on any Asynchronous Sample Rate Conversion ala modern ESS chips.  It gets lost in the cracks what a big deal that is.  ASRC seems to be the modern panacea for jitter, but 'no magic comes without a price'.  iFi's old school process of a large data buffer galvanically isolated from the USB input circuitry allows for a smooth transfer to the master clock domain and the proof is in the pudding.  Both in measurement and in listening. 

It is so easy to get lost in all these features and possibilities.  Get past that and just listen to the thing and what you are going to hear is a very very special sounding DAC that I could live with for many years as the primary controller of my digital system. 

Finally I am very encouraged that this conversion architecture in the iDSD Pro is just the beginning according to the manual.  The manual says this will be the basis for the next generation of iFi products to come.  I can't wait!  I wouldn't be surprised in some 'trickle down' in the future to the 'Micro' range.  That will certainly shake up that crowded price point.  I say bring it on!!  Its the best time ever to be an 'audiophile' or whatever word does the trick for you!


----------



## Hoegaardener70

Hi ifi friends, I have a comparison question to which I will not find an answer due to lack of access to the gear. In your opinion, how would the ifi Pro idsd in combination with a ifi Pro iCan fare against a Hugo TT2? The difference in price would be around 1k (well, minus an excellent interconnect between the two ifi devices), and I'd be really interested if anybody had a chance for a side by side comparison.


----------



## vonBaron

I will say it is better than Hugo TT2 in many ways. For me combo IFi is sonical better, gives you more flexibility.


----------



## Hoegaardener70

vonBaron said:


> I will say it is better than Hugo TT2 in many ways. For me combo IFi is sonical better, gives you more flexibility.



Could you please tell me a bit more ... sonically ( meaning sound wise) better, or due to the better flexibility with connections (which is pretty clear given the idsd's wide range of inputs)?


----------



## vonBaron

Ifi it's warmer, softer, more musical than TT2. 
TT2 has better soundstage, speed, resolution. 
IFi is fully balanced, more imputs/ouputs. 
TT2 sound good for me only with warmer headphones i find ifi more flexible.


----------



## Hoegaardener70

vonBaron said:


> Ifi it's warmer, softer, more musical than TT2.
> TT2 has better soundstage, speed, resolution.
> IFi is fully balanced, more imputs/ouputs.
> TT2 sound good for me only with warmer headphones i find ifi more flexible.



Thanks for this.


----------



## vonBaron

And you can upgrade ifi combo with linear PSU and better tubes.


----------



## Hoegaardener70

vonBaron said:


> And you can upgrade ifi combo with linear PSU and better tubes.



Thanks. I never understood the tube upgrading. So the dome on top is basically like a tube holder which can be screwed off? And which tube would be recommended? As far as I understood ifi('s marketing), the used tube is a perfect match.


----------



## vonBaron

Yes, exactly, inside there are tubes but rolling them cancel warannty... 
Marketing is marketing but i belive my ears more. 
I use pair of WE396A, military version and they are great, sweet full body warm sound with plenty detali.


----------



## iFi audio (Jul 3, 2020)

MLGrado said:


> Inside the iFi you are dealing with PCB mounted sockets, and you need to respect that with great care. iFi can say more about it I am sure. Be careful when you do it.



That's true, it has to be a delicate job as the small board with sockets can be damaged if too much pressure is applied. As for tubes removal, just as you said I would wiggle each tube slightly left and right, to a point where there's some play in the socket. Then I would stop with these moves and just pull a tube out.



Hoegaardener70 said:


> So the dome on top is basically like a tube holder which can be screwed off? And which tube would be recommended? As far as I understood ifi('s marketing), the used tube is a perfect match.



Do you mean the glass dome on top of the enclosure? If so, it's there for looks and it shouldn't be moved 

Pro iDSDD's enclosure is one large sleeve essentially. Once all screws on its rear are removed, the main PCB with the product's front still attached to it should slide right off. As for tubes, vintage WE396A tubes would be an upgrade for GE5670 already installed, but they're costly.


----------



## vonBaron

I remember when i first time swap tubes, it fell impossible to pull stock GE5670 out, i was all in sweat becouse i was afraid to damage my unit.


----------



## Hoegaardener70

vonBaron said:


> I remember when i first time swap tubes, it fell impossible to pull stock GE5670 out, i was all in sweat becouse i was afraid to damage my unit.



And how did you manage in the end?


----------



## vonBaron (Jul 3, 2020)

Just wobbling left and right gently a the same time pulling out.
After few times they come out with ease.
But still you must be very gentle with tubes.


----------



## MLGrado (Jul 4, 2020)

iFi audio said:


> That's true, it has to be a delicate job as the small board with sockets can be damaged if too much pressure is applied. As for tubes removal, just as you said I would wiggle each tube slightly left and right, to a point where there's some play in the socket. Then I would stop with these moves and just pull a tube out.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




If you don't mind me adding, when you get your WE396A tubes, don't get addicted to low ball pricing.. if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. I can't even put a number anymore on vintage tubes (like a set of 1950's Mullard CV4004 I got burned on.. grrr) that looked the part, and according to the seller, tested the part.  But in actual practice, they sounded awful.  No they were not noisy or microphonic, nothing really bad could be said other than the fact the music just sounded, well, bad. 

It can be a crapshoot, but you truly want vintage tubes that are really New Old Stock or as close as possible, so be VERY careful with FleaBay, and I can name a prominent longtime off eBay dealer that I would avoid like the plague as well.  And as iFi has indicated, those Western Electric WE396A are some of the most sought after and cherished NOS tubes out there, and finding good ones will take time and you will need to be willing to open your wallet a bit.  Otherwise just enjoy the NOS tubes already provided.  They sound great in and of themselves.  Those GE in NOS form as installed by iFi will walk circles around the Western Electric tubes if the WE tubes have a lot of miles on them.


----------



## dstubked

holy crap...the WE 596As totally elevated the sound to the next level! It is definitely replacing the PS Audio Directstream in my system for sure. The dynamics hit harder..soundstage goes wider..vocals..very natural. Why didn't iFi just use the WE 596As as the stock tubes option...? Not saying the stock GEs are bad but this is just another level for me.

Just wondering, how much more out of the pro iDSD can I squeeze out with an external LPS?


----------



## vonBaron

Becouse WE396A are rare and expensive. 
Good External LPS is another lvl up.


----------



## dstubked

vonBaron said:


> Becouse WE396A are rare and expensive.
> Good External LPS is another lvl up.



Any goOd LPS recommendations..?


----------



## iFi audio

dstubked said:


> holy crap...the WE 596As totally elevated the sound to the next level!



Well, yes, it is a tube we consider as an upgrade too 



dstubked said:


> It is definitely replacing the PS Audio Directstream in my system for sure.



Thanks, it's a nice thing to say. That DAC by PS Audio is solid!



dstubked said:


> Not saying the stock GEs are bad but this is just another level for me.



For the price of those WE tubes, they better be!


----------



## xcom

iFi audio said:


> Yup. please do!



As posted in the iCan Pro Thread:

Remote is finally here. Is a brick for sure, but goes well with the iCan Pro 
I was able to learn the volume up and volume down.
I was able to learn all of the Schiit BF2 codes so that's a plus. 
This should work just fine with the iDSD Pro as well.


----------



## Hoegaardener70

dstubked said:


> Any goOd LPS recommendations..?



What is LPS? When I google, I end up in the Little Pet Shop.


----------



## xcom

Hoegaardener70 said:


> What is LPS? When I google, I end up in the Little Pet Shop.


Linear Power Supply


----------



## Hoegaardener70

xcom said:


> Linear Power Supply



Ah! I thought the ifi Pro gear has a power protective circuit built in.


----------



## xcom

Hoegaardener70 said:


> Ah! I thought the ifi Pro gear has a power protective circuit built in.



I dont think the use case


----------



## iFi audio

Hoegaardener70 said:


> Ah! I thought the ifi Pro gear has a power protective circuit built in.



It has 



Hoegaardener70 said:


> When I google, I end up in the Little Pet Shop.



       



xcom said:


> As posted in the iCan Pro Thread:
> 
> Remote is finally here. Is a brick for sure, but goes well with the iCan Pro
> I was able to learn the volume up and volume down.
> ...



Great stuff, I'm glad this worked for you! And it's silver


----------



## Hoegaardener70

Does anybody here have the chance to directly compare an ifi Pro idsd/Pro iCan vs the Chord Hugo TT2??? I, and I am sure many others, would be very interested to hear more about this comparison. In optics, ifi wins for sure using the iRack, compared to the Fisher Price looks of the TT2


----------



## iFi audio

Hoegaardener70 said:


> Does anybody here have the chance to directly compare an ifi Pro idsd/Pro iCan vs the Chord Hugo TT2??? I, and I am sure many others, would be very interested to hear more about this comparison. In optics, ifi wins for sure using the iRack, compared to the Fisher Price looks of the TT2



I'd use HF's search function, perhaps in the TT2 thread there's a comparison you look for


----------



## Hoegaardener70

iFi audio said:


> I'd use HF's search function, perhaps in the TT2 thread there's a comparison you look for



Not as much as expected, but anyway, I am very happy with my iDSD . 

May I ask, since I could not locate a dedicated thread for the ifi micro black label, I lost the UBS A to A cable which came with the device (in a friendly blue). 
Any special suggestions for replacement?


----------



## iFi audio

Hoegaardener70 said:


> Not as much as expected, but anyway, I am very happy with my iDSD .



That's good to hear 



Hoegaardener70 said:


> I lost the UBS A to A cable which came with the device (in a friendly blue).
> Any special suggestions for replacement?



Nothing fancy is needed, but you can also ask us here: support@ifi-audio.com

If we have some available, we'll send you one.


----------



## MLGrado (Aug 7, 2020)

I have a really nice pair of WE396a in my iDSD Pro.  Just saw while browsing that there are some folks who think it takes the iFi to the next level, even to replace the PSAudio Directstream? Wow,  big praise.  

I won't doubt the claim either.  I know very well how true New Old Stock or still yet almost new vintage tubes can totally change a piece of equipment.  

I am just now in the middle of my comparo of my RME ADI-2 DAC fs (AK4490 version) with the iDSD Pro.  You can read about it here...

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/rme-adi-2-dac-thread.868015/page-206#post-15789092

 I didn't think a thread in each forum was very efficient.  

But back to the tubes. I did splurge a bit and think I am set for life with the GE NOS tube.  

I also grabbed a pair of NOS mid 60's JAN 5670.  The were packaged and delivered as RCA, but I won't take that at face value until some one can say yes or no, they are really RCA.  I have too much expertise in 12A_7 types and not enough in others.  BUT, that said, the RCA version (hopefully the photo can tell enough about them for expert identification), they look like could also be GE.  Just 20ish model years older...

Here ya go...


----------



## Hoegaardener70

Sounds like a great setup. Any recommendations where to get the WE396a from? I looked around and find either weird sources or used ones....


----------



## iFi audio

Hoegaardener70 said:


> Sounds like a great setup. Any recommendations where to get the WE396a from? I looked around and find either weird sources or used ones....



They're not easy to find, that's for sure.



MLGrado said:


> I have a really nice pair of WE396a in my iDSD Pro.  Just saw while browsing that there are some folks who think it takes the iFi to the next level, even to replace the PSAudio Directstream? Wow,  big praise.
> 
> I won't doubt the claim either.  I know very well how true New Old Stock or still yet almost new vintage tubes can totally change a piece of equipment.
> 
> ...



Awesome, I look forward to your findings!


----------



## Sphere 57 (Aug 16, 2020)

Audiophonics from France make good linear power supplies, I have a 5v one that I am very happy with, they make a 15v one which will work with the Pro iDSD. There is also MCRU/Longdog Audio (UK), which I know to be good, however given the price difference, I would lean to Audiophonics.


----------



## dcguy73

I am joining this club. My search for an all-in-one secondary listening station/bedside system ended when I decided to splurge on this. I love my iCan Pro enough to give iFi Audio another chance.


----------



## iFi audio

dcguy73 said:


> I am joining this club. My search for an all-in-one secondary listening station/bedside system ended when I decided to splurge on this. I love my iCan Pro enough to give iFi Audio another chance.



That's very cool. As an all-in-one, Pro iDSD should work well with cans listed in your sig


----------



## iFi audio

Sphere 57 said:


> they make a 15v one which will work with the Pro iDSD.



If I may ask, have you tried Pro iDSD with a linear PSU by any chance?


----------



## dcguy73

iFi audio said:


> That's very cool. As an all-in-one, Pro iDSD should work well with cans listed in your sig



I did a bit of reading online prior to making my purchase, and it seems that the iDSD has some “quirks” with streaming and externally attached media. Have there been any firmware updates since 2019 that I missed seeing on your site?


----------



## iFi audio

dcguy73 said:


> Have there been any firmware updates since 2019 that I missed seeing on your site?



Everything you see at our site is up to date. If I may ask, how are you going to use Pro iDSD? Via network or USB?


----------



## dcguy73

iFi audio said:


> Everything you see at our site is up to date. If I may ask, how are you going to use Pro iDSD? Via network or USB?



Good question!

As the iDSD Pro is intended to be my all-in-one second system, I'd like to use its all of its functions, including wireless Qobuz(?)/Tidal streaming and as a DAC for an external USB hard drive. I also have a NAS, if that works with the iDSD (I'm sad the iDSD Pro doesn't work with Roon).

If the iDSD has issues with wireless streaming, I have a backup. I've got a Euphony PTS network streamer that does Roon and has a USB output. I could use the iDSD Pro as a DAC for that, but then I'd need to run a network cable from my office to my bedroom, which I'd prefer not to do.

I'm hoping I can use the iDSD Pro as a one-box system and won't need a second box.


----------



## dcguy73

Another question: I have a P8 Keces linear power supply that I have available to use, but it only puts out 12/13 volts. Is that enough for the iDSD Pro?


----------



## iFi audio

dcguy73 said:


> Another question: I have a P8 Keces linear power supply that I have available to use, but it only puts out 12/13 volts. Is that enough for the iDSD Pro?



Pro iDSD needs 15V/4A to be happy.



dcguy73 said:


> I'm sad the iDSD Pro doesn't work with Roon



It can work with Roon: 

...but you would need a laptop to run our iFi Bridge first.


----------



## Sphere 57

iFi audio said:


> If I may ask, have you tried Pro iDSD with a linear PSU by any chance?


Yes I have tried the MCRU, I found a noticeable improvement. I feel that the price is steep for the amount of gain, so I am reluctant to big it up as a recommendation on this forum, however when I tried going back to stock PSU I realised that there is no way that I can go back now I'm used to the upgrade.


----------



## iFi audio

Sphere 57 said:


> Yes I have tried the MCRU, I found a noticeable improvement. I feel that the price is steep for the amount of gain, so I am reluctant to big it up as a recommendation on this forum, however when I tried going back to stock PSU I realised that there is no way that I can go back now I'm used to the upgrade.



Thanks for your input. Recently we've been getting substantial feedback about Pro iDSD and linear power supplies, very similar to yours. So there's something in there...


----------



## Sphere 57

dcguy73 said:


> Good question!
> 
> As the iDSD Pro is intended to be my all-in-one second system, I'd like to use its all of its functions, including wireless Qobuz(?)/Tidal streaming and as a DAC for an external USB hard drive. I also have a NAS, if that works with the iDSD (I'm sad the iDSD Pro doesn't work with Roon).
> 
> ...


The iDSD Pro's onboard streamer does not allow gapless, either with Tidal or the USB A port, that's why I ended up using it as a DAC only.


----------



## dcguy73

I received the iDSD Pro yesterday, and my impression of it has been decent so far. The DAC and amp sound good and I assume the amp will get better with time. It drives my HD800S and HE1000SE well. I'm not in love with the iDSD's 2.4ghz wireless signal, as I need to disconnect my Amazon echo from WiFi for the iDSD to get a solid signal. Also, the MUZO app is not the easiest or most flexible interface for steaming or browsing local media.


----------



## iFi audio

dcguy73 said:


> The DAC and amp sound good and I assume the amp will get better with time.



It should after two full days of work or so.



dcguy73 said:


> Also, the MUZO app is not the easiest or most flexible interface for steaming or browsing local media.



I hear you, we got substantial feedback about MUZO from our customers.


----------



## WasabiIceCream

My micro iDSD keeps going completely dead in Turbo power mode after only like 10-15 minutes.
I have it connected to the iUSB Power, with Gemini cable, and it just seems like it can't last at all.


----------



## iFi audio

WasabiIceCream said:


> My micro iDSD keeps going completely dead in Turbo power mode after only like 10-15 minutes.
> I have it connected to the iUSB Power, with Gemini cable, and it just seems like it can't last at all.



This would imply that power consumption surpasses what micro iDSD BL's battery is getting. But still, 15 minutes is way too low. What cans do you use? Is the battery fully charged?


----------



## WasabiIceCream

iFi audio said:


> This would imply that power consumption surpasses what micro iDSD BL's battery is getting. But still, 15 minutes is way too low. What cans do you use? Is the battery fully charged?



Thanks for the response.
I'm using it with Sennheiser HD650. It's actually not a Black Label, but the original micro iDSD I've had for a number of years. I only ever use it plugged in, though. I figured if I always had it plugged into the iUSB Power, it should last much longer.


----------



## iFi audio

WasabiIceCream said:


> Thanks for the response.
> I'm using it with Sennheiser HD650. It's actually not a Black Label, but the original micro iDSD I've had for a number of years. I only ever use it plugged in, though. I figured if I always had it plugged into the iUSB Power, it should last much longer.



Perhaps its battery is at its end, but whatever the case is, can you please open up a ticket at our support platform here: https://support.ifi-audio.com

Our support staff will take a look into this and do their best to help you out


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## MLGrado (Aug 29, 2020)

iFi audio said:


> Hey, congrats and enjoy your new machine! Also, thanks a lot for your feedback!



Well folks, I am back!  Been promising a thorough review of the iDSD Pro versus the RME AD1-2 fs  (4990 chip model).

I started having major heart problems just a few weeks into my process of reviewing.  Got better, had a few setbacks unfortunately, but have been healthy enough the last few days to complete my RME 'brain acclimation', and made tons of quality notes on the way, assuming I can read my left handed chicken scratches.  Doctor's handwriting looks like master penmanship compared to mine!  I now have the iDSD back in for direct comparison to my notes from the RME.  Full review will be done soon, assuming I stay well, but I will post this tidbit over here on the iFi side of things (I have a post or two about same shootout over in the RME thread as well, but they aren't likely ready to hear this yet  )

Look, the RME sounds amazing, and I know a lot of folks love the synergy it has with the iFi Pro iCan.  That actually makes a lot of sense based on what I am hearing.  The iFi 'sound' could be very complimentary to what RME has going on.  But I can't speak on that from any experience whatsoever.  I would call it an 'semi-educated' hunch.

Here is what I CAN tell you right now, unequivocally.  The iFi iDSD Pro used as a DAC via line outs is just playing in a higher league sonically.  It really is.  After a couple months of keeping the RME in the system, changing nothing, not the headphones, no tube rolling in my Icon Audio headphone amp, nada... just switching over to the iFi produced a dramatic effect.  It really surprised me it was as great as it was.  I was expecting some long in-depth detailed listening to make a decision simply on sonics as a standalone DAC, not considering any other features, bells and whistles, etc.

The iDSD Pro is more refined.  Treble has more 'air' and sparkle' while never sounding strident or harsh or sibilant.  Soundstage was notably bigger and more enveloping than 'flat'.  The RME strength is wonderful midrange with a non-fatiguing treble and powerful punchy bass.  The iDSD midrange, however, just has an element of tone, sparkle and realism to it.  It is truly beautiful.  You forget you are listening to a box processing numbers and just get lost in the music.  Yes, the iFi plays beautiful music.  And not in some inaccurate euphonic way.  It sounds natural in every respect.  Voices male and female have resonance and richness that sound like they are right there with you, not being played back via a file.  Strings... oh my.  If you are a classical music listener, (I kinda have to be since my college studies were in classical piano) strings are reproduced with a richness and a capturing of overtones that I just don't usually expect to hear from digital equipment.  Bach Cello suites were almost a religious experience on the iDSD.

So the iDSD Pro is NOT one of those DAC's just put on for the background music whilst you work away at something else.  It has a musical beauty that GRABS you and demands to be heard.

Once again, I say measurements, shmeasurements.  I have seen the Stereophile AP results along with commentary.  Also seen Paul Miller's AP measurements that would seem to be more in line with what I would expect from Thorsten and his engineering team.  These DAC's are now operating at such miniscule levels of distortion and noise, even the smallest differences in setups can create drastic swings in results.  I admit to being a closet measurement guy who always goes to his favorite pet FFT's etc. (those would be filter impulse transient response and ringing, filter cutoff, order and slope and image rejection, and the J-test.)  I have also seem measurements of the RME DAC that would seem comparable to top end stuff; and yeah it does sound great.  BUT....

YOU STILL HAVE TO USE YOUR EARS!

And a proper review needs the weeks and months for your brain to absorb and adapt to the sound signature of the DAC.  Lot of folks mistake this for break-in...well, yes and no... it's more like your brain that is being broken in.  (let me stop here and tell some of you to go ahead and put your weapons down. I DO consider electronic break-in a real phenomenon.  Especially things with moving parts like speakers and headphones.  To a lesser extent things like caps, resistors etc, but any effect you are likely to hear is very subtle and starts to merge into the time frame of aforementioned 'brain' break-in.)

But again back to actually listening to a device rather than reliance on magazine reviews and posted measurements.  This Dac comparison is all the proof I need that the proof is in the listening.

And yes, the iFi iDSD PRO as a standalone DAC thoroughly outclasses the RME in just about every aspect.  The RME does get points for tight, deep clean bass response, and EARLY on in the process, I was hearing faster transient response from the RME.  But that all gets re-evaluated now as I start the officially review the iDSD Pro and compare what I am hearing to the notes I made over the entire review period for the RME.

But, even now as I start the meticulous evaluating and notating the iDSD Pro for my upcoming review, it is already so obvious the price difference in the two DAC's is merited.  If anyone thinks the iFi iDSD Pro is sacrificing sound quality for 'bells and whistles' that is a mistake.  It sounds like what one would expect for a standalone DAC around 2.5k, and that is before you even get to the part where there is still as yet a very good headphone amp built in as well.  And that feat is pretty damn impressive to me.  Actually, strictly on sound quality, I am going to guess it would take quite a leap in investment to find something notably better sounding.

Oh and one final teaser note.. MQA.  I am not interested in all these arguments pro and con about the format.  All I know is when I heard it for the first time on the RME with ROON acting as core decoder and 'unfolding' to a high rez file the RME could play, it blew me away.  I have never heard one of my fav albums "Morph the Cat" sound that good.  And now with the iDSD Pro back in, I am hearing the full MQA experience as the iDSD Pro FPGA allows it be the only full MQA decode and render in iFi's lineup.  If I am wrong about that, just let me know.  MQA.  Through all the controversy, once again, my ears are deciding for me.  The best sounding playback of "Morph the Cat" is now even more so the best I have ever heard it.  WOW.


Okay, that was a lot for just a quick teaser.  I have lots of music to re-listen to now via the iDSD Pro, then take the time to sum the comparo up and put a bow on it.  Gosh this is a helluva lot of fun... GREAT distraction from learning you have a congenital heart defect in your early 40's    So back to enjoying the music!  Make the best of your time on this blue sphere.  Be kind to others, slow down a bit, enjoy the ride an all the blessings you have even RIGHT NOW.  Tomorrow is no guarantee!

PEACE!

And thanks iFi for what is the the best DAC I have ever had in my system, period.


----------



## iFi audio

MLGrado said:


> Well folks, I am back!  Been promising a thorough review of the iDSD Pro versus the RME AD1-2 fs  (4990 chip model).
> 
> I started having major heart problems just a few weeks into my process of reviewing.  Got better, had a few setbacks unfortunately, but have been healthy enough the last few days to complete my RME 'brain acclimation', and made tons of quality notes on the way, assuming I can read my left handed chicken scratches.  Doctor's handwriting looks like master penmanship compared to mine!  I now have the iDSD back in for direct comparison to my notes from the RME.  Full review will be done soon, assuming I stay well, but I will post this tidbit over here on the iFi side of things (I have a post or two about same shootout over in the RME thread as well, but they aren't likely ready to here this yet  )
> 
> ...


----------



## gincognito

I’ve seen instructions on how to update the firmware for the Pro iDSD, but how can I see which firmware is currently installed? Please advise.


----------



## dcguy73 (Aug 30, 2020)

Tonight, the sound is great. I have my Euphony PTS handling streaming duty. Both it and the iDSD are powered by the Keces P8 linear power supply. I'm hearing details in songs that I've never heard before. The Senn HD800S that I picked up may also have something to do with it.


----------



## MLGrado

dcguy73 said:


> Tonight, the sound is great. I have my Euphony PTS handling streaming duty. Both it and the iDSD are powered by the Keces P8 linear power supply. I'm heading details in songs that I've never heard before. The Senn HD800S that I picked up may also have something to do with it.



not familiar with the Keces LPS.. need to have a look!  

when my full review is complete, it will be mentioned as a major factor but I am running off the SBooster 15v LPS.  In my RME vs iFi shootout, both got their juice from the SBooster.


----------



## gincognito

MLGrado said:


> not familiar with the Keces LPS.. need to have a look!
> 
> when my full review is complete, it will be mentioned as a major factor but I am running off the SBooster 15v LPS.  In my RME vs iFi shootout, both got their juice from the SBooster.



The Sbooster 15V has enough current to power the iDSD pro? I read another post on this thread that specifically said the sbooster didn’t work. Please clarify.


----------



## MLGrado (Aug 31, 2020)

gincognito said:


> The Sbooster 15V has enough current to power the iDSD pro? I read another post on this thread that specifically said the sbooster didn’t work. Please clarify.



My iDSD was purchased from another forum member and it was part of package deal.  I was not aware of it lacking the needed current.

I took a look at the manual, and the max amperage the SBooster provides is 2.5A.  Indeed, the iFi iDSD Pro says to provide 4A.

In actual PRACTICE I can say I have had no problems.

However, I will now do a comparison with the stock power supply to be sure.


But, it may be useful to include the following from iFi's own tech notes on the iDSD Pro..............

---------------------------------------

*DC-LOOP-OUT AND POWER SUPPLY CONNECTION*

The two small connections just above the external clocking dial of Pro iDSD will be familiar to iESL and Pro iDAC owners. The one on the left is a DC-Loop Out and its purpose is to feed another Pro range device from the Pro iDSD.

_This means that one external PSU can handle both Pro iDSD and Pro iCAN. (!!)


You can even throw Pro iESL to the mix (connected via the HDMI interface found on the latter) *and have three (!!!!!) iFi Pro range decks operational via only one external PSU.* _

The input to the right of DC-Loop Out is a regular 15V/4A DC power input.

• Tip: Any 9v to 18v DC power source with a minimum of 60VA rating can be used with the Pro iDSD (including vehicular, RV and boat-based 12V DC power). We strongly recommend the use of the included iPower Plus 15v. It offers the latest in power supply technology and is better and cleaner than any battery or aftermarket linear power supply.

--------------------------------------------
So again while I will check against the stock supply, the results I have gotten in practice are great.  Also based on the above copy and paste from iFi tech notes, if a single 15v 4a supply can handle three devices by itself, I feel fairly good about the 15v 2.5a Sbooster Mkii driving only the iDSD Pro as a standalone DAC.  

But I will do some more testing, and we will see!!

I mean, its so close to already matching the "tip" in the iFi Tech notes.  The Sbooster is 15v and has a 50va transformer.  Again, I will compare thoroughly with stock PSU.  This has opened a proverbial can of worms in my head and those don't close easily haha.  But I suspect based on first, my experience, and second, what I have read, that the sBooster will be serving me well for many months or years..


----------



## dcguy73 (Aug 31, 2020)

MLGrado said:


> My iDSD was purchased from another forum member and it was part of package deal.  I was not aware of it lacking the needed current.
> 
> I took a look at the manual, and the max amperage the SBooster provides is 2.5A.  Indeed, the iFi iDSD Pro says to provide 4A.
> 
> ...


This is interesting. I wonder if the 4A requirement is intended for cases where the iCan Pro and iDSD are run concurrently.

I had the same concerns about my Keces power supply. After reading this, i checked the specs, and fortunately it’s rated at 15v/4a.


----------



## MLGrado (Aug 31, 2020)

dcguy73 said:


> This is interesting. I wonder if the 4A requirement is intended for cases where the iCan Pro and iDSD are run concurrently.
> 
> I had the same concerns about my Keces power supply. After reading this, i checked the specs, and fortunately it’s rated at 15v/4a.




When it comes to psu current having too little is the sin.. but the spec doesn't represent a constant number, it references a potential peak draw.  You can't have too much when it comes to potential current.

Seeing how the iCan Pro and iDSD Pro can be run off the single supply, one would think indeed the called for PSU would need to have its possible peak draw higher for that very purpose.

Only iFi could say, and they (rightly so) are going to answer or remind anyone that the spec is what it is, and to guarantee the needs of the product are being met, you should meet the spec.

But, noting again this is pure speculation by a consumer, it does seem logical that the 4 amp peak requirement would likely only be called upon when the aforementioned multiple kit are running off a single supply.

Furthermore, the tech notes don't directly mention the 4 amp requirement, rather the required transformer spec of 60va is given, which is 15v x 4a = 60va.

The sBooster specified peak amp would seem underrated as it has a 50va capable transformer, which at 15v volts the peak amps would be 3.33A.  So its own current ability seems a bit understated in the specs if indeed the 50va spec is correct.

So again, in the end for MY personal situation, I am not concerned.  I am not using both the DAC and the headamp; only the DAC, and obviously not running any other components off the supply.  The entire time I have used it has been with the SBooster, and it has never faltered or underperformed (that I can hear or know of) in any way.


BUT, if I were in the position of doing this over again, and had the knowledge I now hold, I would likely have considered something else than the SBooster if not for the simple peace of mind every need is met exactly to specification. However, I again will stress the DAC has performed nothing but brilliantly with the Sbooster as its power source.


----------



## MLGrado (Aug 31, 2020)

Switching gears a bit...

still evaluating a few things before my final review.  The last night and the next few days/evenings I am focusing on 'native' format conversion, versus the sound achieved with all files, PCM and DSD alike, upconverted to DSD1024.

I am first of all a purist.  The more DSP you do, the more number crunching for various things such as reconstruction filters, oversampling filters, extra Delta Sigma stages, etc, all in the name of creating the most seemingly effective digital file to meet the challenges of the analog stage, may be in the end counterproductive.  All the alterations to the original file, especially ones already stored in 1 bit format, could actually in the end make for a poorer sound.

Again, especially in the case of DSD.  All that must be done to convert any DSD file on the iDSD Pro is send the original 1 bit file, untouched, to the output FIR filter stage and then it's already simply then in the hands of the analog portion of the DAC.

And that was the promise of DSD way back in the day; ultra simple conversion with nyquist worries like imaging never coming into play because of the super high sample rate.  A slow filter can lessen the ultrasonic noise, and by the time you get even close to half sample rate, everything has been filtered effectively to nil, again meaning the worries that came with PCM aliasing/imaging do not apply.

And, I believe my ear still hears things that way, at least with native DSD files at 128 and especially 256.

But here in my evaluations I believe I truly am hearing DSD64 upconverted to DSD1024 as an improvement, in spite of what I have formerly posted about DSP.  DSD64 really is just barely enough when it comes to the levels and lower frequency rise of ultrasonic noise.  Even the best of analog filters can leave downstream analog stages with problems.  Perhaps this is why I am having a hard time deciding between the 'pure' most simple conversion and upconversion to DSD1024.  Right now I am really leaning against my long held 'beliefs' and numerable personal experiences in the matter.

The iFi FPGA programming is ridiculously good at upconversion to ultra high rate DSD!!

That said, I still find greater air, detail, atmosphere and dimension, especially in my several native DSD256 recordings converted just as they are without further upconversion.

So indeed, it seems that iFi is justified putting so much time and effort into the software that makes up this machine.  It has all the right stuff to convert any file type with maximum quality.

Again, bravo, bravo, iFi team.


----------



## gincognito

MLGrado said:


> My iDSD was purchased from another forum member and it was part of package deal.  I was not aware of it lacking the needed current.
> 
> I took a look at the manual, and the max amperage the SBooster provides is 2.5A.  Indeed, the iFi iDSD Pro says to provide 4A.
> 
> ...



Despite my extensive experience in using linear power supplies and having two-chassis components I never considered an LPS for the iDSD pro because ifi seem so insistent on saying that the SMPS that comes with the unit only serves to charge the supercapacitors and that it will not be bested by anything you can get. But, just out of curiosity, the other day I put an ifi DC purifier between the supplier SMPS and the iDSD pro and it sounded noticeably better. So after Redding forum posts and professional reviews, it seems that people reported successfully using and hearing audible benefits with the following 4 LPS 1. Uptone JS2 2. Paul Hynes SR  3.Sbooster 15V 4. Keces P8
Theoretically, the keces is the only one that truly meets spec. This is confusing. Ifi even has a range that says 12v-18v with the Amp numbers getting lower as the voltage goes up. On this forum they’ve stated that it is happiest at 15v 4A. Seems confusing. They should just release a good LPS in an identical chassis so we can have an ifi stack. Maybe even make a 10MHZ clock in the same chassis. 
For reference, I use the idsd pro as a standalone DAC going fixed 10V out to my benchmark LA4 pre.
The master clock input is another issue where there seems to be mixed messages from ifi. I opened a ticket the other day and asked if the clock input impedance is 50 or 75 ohm. I have a 50 ohm Cybershaft clock. They replied: as long as you have the dial set to atomic in, you should be fine.
What kind of reply is that??!!
I wish Ifi would clarify this stuff.


----------



## dstubked

that is where I am a little confused. I have a mutec ref10 that provides clock signals at 10mhz. The dial has options for both atomic and 10mhz. So selecting it as atomic will work as well? I wish there was an indicator or something telling us that a "lock" was successfully acquired with the eternal clock.


----------



## MLGrado

gincognito said:


> Despite my extensive experience in using linear power supplies and having two-chassis components I never considered an LPS for the iDSD pro because ifi seem so insistent on saying that the SMPS that comes with the unit only serves to charge the supercapacitors and that it will not be bested by anything you can get. But, just out of curiosity, the other day I put an ifi DC purifier between the supplier SMPS and the iDSD pro and it sounded noticeably better. So after Redding forum posts and professional reviews, it seems that people reported successfully using and hearing audible benefits with the following 4 LPS 1. Uptone JS2 2. Paul Hynes SR  3.Sbooster 15V 4. Keces P8
> Theoretically, the keces is the only one that truly meets spec. This is confusing. Ifi even has a range that says 12v-18v with the Amp numbers getting lower as the voltage goes up. On this forum they’ve stated that it is happiest at 15v 4A. Seems confusing. They should just release a good LPS in an identical chassis so we can have an ifi stack. Maybe even make a 10MHZ clock in the same chassis.
> For reference, I use the idsd pro as a standalone DAC going fixed 10V out to my benchmark LA4 pre.
> The master clock input is another issue where there seems to be mixed messages from ifi. I opened a ticket the other day and asked if the clock input impedance is 50 or 75 ohm. I have a 50 ohm Cybershaft clock. They replied: as long as you have the dial set to atomic in, you should be fine.
> ...



Well, the power requirements issue isn't quite a black and white thing.  As long as you don't send over-voltage (18v for iFi) the DAC will operate as expected.  Any more than that, you risk burning up the PCB.  

Now for current, its really a matter of making sure you have enough amps to cover.  You could have a PSU with 10amps and it will work just fine with the iFi specified at 4a.  The device itself will only draw what it needs.  

It gets frustrating for 'tweakers' who like to try different things.  Certainly power supplies of different specs have all seemed to provide good results.  I don't consider the SBooster, though, to be optimal since it indeed is rated at less than iFi says is needed.  I won't recommend it to another iDSD Pro owner for that very reason.  Luckily for me, it seems to be just fine.  I have tried both the stock SMPS and the SBooster now.  I never had any current issues with the SBooster as compared to the stock supply.  

I will say the stock SMPS is excellent.  Sounds great.  I am not really interested in doing an extensive A/B comparison, but it isn't like the SBooster creates an instantly notable "must have" increase in quality.  And that falls in line with every other iFi SMPS I have tried and compared against LPS supplies.  The iFi switching supplies are truly excellent.  They belong in the game right next to these very expensive Linear Power Supplies.  And that is truly impressive engineering as I see it. 


iFi has EXPLODED in size and has grown from a small company where you could get all kinds of specific tech answers into something much much bigger and by consequence will be much more 'conservative' in their answers and will hold to a consistent position company wide as to not create any confusion.  They keep their narrative controlled.  But even with a more controlled narrative, they STILL are more open and transparent about their stuff than just about anyone.  Such as their 'tech notes' and other 'white papers' on their tech and their 'philosophy'.  

But I do understand being frustrated by not feeling you got your question answered exactly the way you expected.  I have been there, too.


----------



## gincognito

dstubked said:


> that is where I am a little confused. I have a mutec ref10 that provides clock signals at 10mhz. The dial has options for both atomic and 10mhz. So selecting it as atomic will work as well? I wish there was an indicator or something telling us that a "lock" was successfully acquired with the eternal clock.


On this particular issue, ifi has been clear, the correct setting for an external 10MHZ clock in the last of the 4 settings, the atomic symbol. Still not clarification on clock impedance though. Your ref 10 has both 50 and 75 ohm so I guess maybe experiment? I’ve spoken to the gentlemen who makes Cybershaft clocks and he told me the clock impedance and any potential mismatches are very minute issues. The reason I asked is because I actually have a good quality impedance converter for my 50 ohm clock. The “scalability” of the iDSD pro, to me atleast, is a great selling point. You can add an LPS and a master clock. For whatever reason, ifi seems extremely reluctant to embrace that aspect of the idsd pro. <<<shrug>>>
For what it’s worth, adding my Cybershaft clock to the unit has given me a major and immediately noticeable increase in the “air” of music and video. Not subtle at all.


----------



## iFi audio (Sep 1, 2020)

gincognito said:


> I’ve seen instructions on how to update the firmware for the Pro iDSD, but how can I see which firmware is currently installed? Please advise.



Our update software lists currently installed firmware. Please click on the "Installation Instructions" button at this site: https://ifi-audio.com/firmware/pro-idsd-firmware/



gincognito said:


> Cybershaft



Said to be very good. Which one do you have?



gincognito said:


> For whatever reason, ifi seems extremely reluctant to embrace that aspect of the idsd pro.



We're very happy that Pro iDSD users to embrace it for us


----------



## MLGrado (Sep 2, 2020)

gincognito said:


> For what it’s worth, adding my Cybershaft clock to the unit has given me a major and immediately noticeable increase in the “air” of music and video. Not subtle at all.



Wow.  Thats a big deal, actually.  The iFi internal clock system is excellent and is pretty much the equal of or better than any of its competitors.  Paul Miller at HiFi News measured the iDSD Pro at 25 picoseconds or less jitter on his test rig.  There are products that cost 10 times as much that have 10 times as much jitter....

Even the ZEN Dac measured on same test rig had less than 20 picoseconds jitter.  Insanely good number for a product of that price! 

Of course there are multiple kinds of jitter that are not necessarily easily quantified or compared, such as random jitter.. Which is why I preach a Gospel of actually listening to devices


----------



## iFi audio

MLGrado said:


> Which is why I preach a Gospel of actually listening to devices



And that's a grand Gospel you preach   Anything aside this can and oftentimes is useful, but eventually it all comes down to what our ears tell us.


----------



## dcguy73

I'm keeping the iDSD at this point. It sounds fantastic and it drives my headphones just fine. I like the iFi house sound, warm and detailed, and the iDSD has that in spades. If I want a different sound for a particular album or genre, I change the iDSD's digital filter and/or disengage the upsampling, and that brings the sound from warm back towards neutral and gives the music greater clarity. Or I can put it in tube+ mode and dial up the warmth, liquidity, and smoothness.

My only complaints about the iDSD are the underwhelming streaming and external media management options. Compared to iFi's attention to detail with the rest of the DAC, the Muzo app feels like an afterthought. I sure hope this is a first-generation product thing and that the second time around, iFi will take a closer look at providing a robust interface, especially if it's going to include a WiFi antenna and an Ethernet connection. Otherwise, I'd prefer a plain iDSD DAC/amp instead of the iDSD DAC/amp/streamer package unit. As is, it's not worth whatever the streaming capabilities contribute to the iDSD's price.

My streaming solution has been to use my Euphony Audio PTS for streaming, connected to the iDSD DAC via USB. The combination of the two sounds fantastic. After I plugged my PTS into the iDSD's USB port and connected both to my network via Ethernet, I A-B tested the PTS' musicality with the iDSD versus the iDSD alone. The PTS/iDSD combination prevails in sound quality, with a fuller midrange and fuller bass, whether streaming music from a paid service or my NAS library. The iDSD does a decent job on its own, but the sound difference is apparent when using my more capable streamer. Also, using the PTS with external hard drives, Qobuz, or Roon (it's Roon capable) is much more intuitive than via the iDSD's Muzo or Roon bridge apps.

If I were to rate the iDSD, I'd give it 4 out of 5 stars for the sound quality and features, after deducting a full star for its half-baked network capabilities.

(Edit: moved this review over from the official thread...my bad)


----------



## MLGrado (Sep 2, 2020)

dcguy73 said:


> I'm keeping the iDSD at this point. It sounds fantastic and it drives my headphones just fine. I like the iFi house sound, warm and detailed, and the iDSD has that in spades. If I want a different sound for a particular album or genre, I change the iDSD's digital filter and/or disengage the upsampling, and that brings the sound from warm back towards neutral and gives the music greater clarity. Or I can put it in tube+ mode and dial up the warmth, liquidity, and smoothness.
> 
> My only complaints about the iDSD are the underwhelming streaming and external media management options. Compared to iFi's attention to detail with the rest of the DAC, the Muzo app feels like an afterthought. I sure hope this is a first-generation product thing and that the second time around, iFi will take a closer look at providing a robust interface, especially if it's going to include a WiFi antenna and an Ethernet connection. Otherwise, I'd prefer a plain iDSD DAC/amp instead of the iDSD DAC/amp/streamer package unit. As is, it's not worth whatever the streaming capabilities contribute to the iDSD's price.
> 
> ...



You know, your complaint happens to be the only feature of the DAC I don't need or have not much use for at this point.

I know for a fact iFi is listening and you can look over the last nearly decade since AMR created iFi and see these kind of things evolve.

I use my Mac Mini running Roon.  Love Roon and no issues with the iDSD Pro and Roon talking via USB.  I had thought of going hardwired ethernet with something like the Sonore MicroRendu... would this lead me into the kind of issues you are talking about?

I will say this much. I love the fact that internally the iDSD is galvanically isolated from the noisy input section. All inputs are, whereas some DACS do just the USB, and not necessarily well.

HOWEVER.....

One thing I will ALWAYS use from now on, regardless of the internal galvanic isolation in the DAC, is an external USB galvanic isolator.  Noise is dealt with and gone before it ever even enters the DAC.  I would suggest to anyone, even if you are using a different DAC, to see what USB galvanic isolation PRE Dac connection, can do for your system....give it a try.

What made be realize what a need it is comes from when I owned a Wyred4Sound DAC-1LE Femto clock upgraded DAC.  It was a decent sounding DAC.  Nowhere in the league compared to the two I have owned since.. the iFi iDSD Pro and the RME ADI-2 fs.

The Wyred4sound just was not sounding right, even with a host of USB conditioners.  Regen, iFi, etc.  Same Icon HP8 MKII tube amp I still use.  I am not sure why, but I decided to see how noisy the W4S actually was, even if at normal levels it seemed clean.  The sound was just hard edged and ragged.  So I paused whatever player I was using at the time with USB still selected, and slowly turned the Icon amplifier audio pot all the way from zero to max.  It was flat out noisy as *&(*(*^ once your got to 75 percent and higher via the volume pot.  Well, I still reasoned that was turned up so loud it would fry my ears, so should I care.  The answer is yes, I should have cared.

I picked up one of the pro market Intona USB 2.0 Galvanic isolators and put it in audio chain. Exact same experiment as before, and these results were consistently repeatable.  NO MORE NOISE across the entire audio pot from 0 to full volume.  Quiet as a mouse.  I could not believe it.  Finally here was a repeatable experiment showing consistent absolutely superior results.  A mod with undeniable positive results.  And you didn't have any need more than your ears to 'measure' the difference.  It went from quite loud to quiet as the best audio systems I had ever heard.

So since that day I will galvanically isolate USB between the computer and DAC 100 percent of the time.  The difference was STARK.  In the case of the Wyred4Sound DAC (which advertises galvanic isolation internally between the USB receiver and the DAC itself via the i2S line) not only did I now have a dead quiet background at any volume, there was now a more natural sound with better imaging, separation and less hard-edged fatiguing 'whatevers'

I know a lot of people work around this USB limitation with networking.  I am interested in doing it too, which is why I was asking about for a bit more info about what you do and what isn't meeting your expectations.  But I will say this much for USB direct to DAC as an interface, especially if you believe you are getting a better sound from an alternative source such as ethernet, go try asych USB with a good Galvanic Isolator.  It may really shrink the gap in audio performance you hear when comparing USB direct to DAC and Network to DAC sources.

Heck, iFi makes a galvanic isolator to do just that as well.  I bought the Intona unit before iFi released their version, and it has served extremely well and as of yet I have found no reason to change it.


----------



## dstubked

gincognito said:


> On this particular issue, ifi has been clear, the correct setting for an external 10MHZ clock in the last of the 4 settings, the atomic symbol. Still not clarification on clock impedance though. Your ref 10 has both 50 and 75 ohm so I guess maybe experiment? I’ve spoken to the gentlemen who makes Cybershaft clocks and he told me the clock impedance and any potential mismatches are very minute issues. The reason I asked is because I actually have a good quality impedance converter for my 50 ohm clock. The “scalability” of the iDSD pro, to me atleast, is a great selling point. You can add an LPS and a master clock. For whatever reason, ifi seems extremely reluctant to embrace that aspect of the idsd pro. <<<shrug>>>
> For what it’s worth, adding my Cybershaft clock to the unit has given me a major and immediately noticeable increase in the “air” of music and video. Not subtle at all.



Wow, thanks for the confirmation. I switched it to the atomic symbol. This thing really scales with an external clock! Same observation as you have. I'm also getting more resolution and definitely hearing subtle details in familiar tracks that I never heard before.


----------



## MLGrado (Sep 3, 2020)

dstubked said:


> Wow, thanks for the confirmation. I switched it to the atomic symbol. This thing really scales with an external clock! Same observation as you have. I'm also getting more resolution and definitely hearing subtle details in familiar tracks that I never heard before.



What kind of clock are you using?  I have already seen Cybershaft mentioned.  Majority of atomic clocks theoretically should be poorer for use with audio and its requirement for immediate and short term scrubbing of jitter.  Most atomics I have any knowledge of don't necessarily do that well in the short term.  They are more stable over long, long time periods, like years, and the short term jitter we get while playing back audio isn;t really addressed being somewhat insignificant when you are talking about stability over months and years.  Corrections don't have to move nearly as quickly therefore short term jitter that we all worry about in audio isn't the strong suite of these clocks.

I had assumed the external clock connector was iFi's nod to the 'pro' part of its name, so it can be included in a studio chain they requires many devices at once to be synced, even if at the expense of short term jitter performance.

Sounds like the clocks you guys are experimenting with are something more than just the typical rubidium clock.  I saw the price on the Cybershaft.  It is super attainable, and I hate that because now I want one too so I can try.. haha


----------



## iFi audio

MLGrado said:


> I had assumed the external clock connector was iFi's nod to the 'pro' part of its name,



This, analog output compliance with standards in the pro industry and internally fully balanced topology (true differential). 



MLGrado said:


> One thing I will ALWAYS use from now on, regardless of the internal galvanic isolation in the DAC, is an external USB galvanic isolator.



Pro iDSD's USB input is galvanically isolated, so putting i.e. iGalvanic3.0 before it would be a bit excessive. But hey, I won't stop you


----------



## dcguy73

iFi audio said:


> Pro iDSD's USB input is galvanically isolated, so putting i.e. iGalvanic3.0 before it would be a bit excessive. But hey, I won't stop you


That's what I thought, too. But once @MLGrado made the suggestion, I hooked up my iUSB3.0 (The PTS streamer doesn't "see" my iGalvanic 3.0, unfortunately) and my iDefender just to test out the combo...


----------



## iFi audio

dcguy73 said:


> That's what I thought, too. But once @MLGrado made the suggestion, I hooked up my iUSB3.0 (The PTS streamer doesn't "see" my iGalvanic 3.0, unfortunately) and my iDefender just to test out the combo...



iUSB3.0 is another thing. But the rough idea is simple: if you have stuff to try, you should. I often do stuff that shouldn't work, but somehow my ears tell me it does. It's actually fun to discover something works better than expected.


----------



## dcguy73 (Sep 6, 2020)

Okay, surgery completed. The iDSD's stock tubes have been replaced with WE936As. Here are a few pictures of the insides.


----------



## iFi audio

dcguy73 said:


> Okay, surgery completed. The iDSD's stock tubes have been replaced with WE936As. Here are a few pictures of the insides.



Very cool. I'm glad you were able to do this on your own. Although the procedure itself might look complicated, executed once it can only get easier and easier in the future. But then again, it's going to take a while to beat those WE tubes you just installed. Enjoy


----------



## Nikinoz (Sep 7, 2020)

In Darko's review of the Pro IDSD he likened the excellence of its internal playback function to a $7000  Simaudio Moon Orbiter. With that in mind, is there likely to be a future firmware upgrade to the Pro IDSD that increases the maximum capacity  of the MicroSD card that it will take? Which, IIRC is curently only 128Gb.


----------



## dcguy73

Nikinoz said:


> In Darko's review of the Pro IDSD he likened the excellence of its internal playback function to a $7000  Simaudio Moon Orbiter. With that in mind, is there likely to be a future firmware upgrade to the Pro IDSD that increases the maximum capacity  of the MicroSD card that it will take? Which, IIRC is curently only 128Gb.


Wow, the limit for micro SD cards is really 128GB? I've never had the problem of having too much storage before. I don't think I have any cards that small.


----------



## Nikinoz

dcguy73 said:


> Wow, the limit for micro SD cards is really 128GB? I've never had the problem of having too much storage before. I don't think I have any cards that small.



Yeah, It is a limitation if all your files are Hi Res or FLAC. I'd prefer to have all my music stored in one place rather than have to continually curate to fit within that limitation. 

There is the option of attaching other external drives, but the less the number of external devices in the playback chain the better.


----------



## dcguy73 (Sep 9, 2020)

This week, I picked up a 128GB microSD card to test the difference between using a card and the usb input on the iDSD Pro.

I decided on a few songs from different genres to do the comparison. The results were consistent. Via my microSD card, the music sounded a little quieter, more collected, and more focused/detailed. When I switched back to my USB streamer, the music sounded louder and more diffuse, kind of like if I had turned the volume up to hear better through a layer of invisible grunge over my headphones' earcups.

I didn't believe that layer of grunge really existed, so I kept switching the inputs back and forth to make sure. Not an easy task. When I used the card and tried to skip ahead in the song (while doing my comparisons) the sound would break up or pause as if the music were buffering and the MUZO app/iDSD needed to catch up. Also, MUZO doesn't allow you to browse through folders or albums, just individual songs. If you have a lot of albums loaded, you'll need to scroll a lot to get to them. My USB streamer doesn't have those issues.

It's frustrating, but my conclusion is that the sound quality you get via a microSD card is much better than using the iDSD's USB port. If you can live with the MUZO app to play music, it's the best solution.

I myself prefer the flexibility of the Roon/Euphony interface to control the music via my streamer, so I guess it's a choice between convenience and better sound, unless there's another way to control the iDSD's connected microSD card from another music player/interface.


----------



## vonBaron (Sep 9, 2020)

You should try buy good USB converter and try using coaxial input, for me it was significant upgrade over USB.

Btw How Holo Spring compares to Pro iDSD?


----------



## dcguy73

vonBaron said:


> You should try buy good USB converter and try using coaxial input, for me it was significant upgrade over USB.
> 
> Btw How Holo Spring compares to Pro iDSD?


I have a USB converter, but my concept of a small all in one system in my bedroom has changed now that i have added accessories. I'm going to need to get a small audio rack before i bring in any more gear.

As to idsd pro vs holo spring, i haven't gotten to doing that comparison yet.


----------



## tushardas

jacofman said:


> Review of  1950s GE JG5670 triple mica Tubes for iFi  Pro iDSD DAC
> 
> 
> This is a review of the  1950s GE JG5670 triple mica tubes that replaced the stock GE 5570 tubes for the iFi Pro iDSD DAC. The installation was pretty straightforward, except that the back panel is permanently attached via wires. It needs to be gently maneuvered through the main cover in order to access the tubes. FYI, I primarily use my iFi Pro in my main stereo system in my living room. I rarely listen to music through my Audeze EL-8 closed back headphones through this system. So my observations are exclusively based on using the iFi Pro in that configuration.
> ...


Hello..

Will you be posting the WE396A's review anytime soon? I'm so very much interested in how the music sounds with the WE tubes..


----------



## tushardas

dcguy73 said:


> Okay, surgery completed. The iDSD's stock tubes have been replaced with WE936As. Here are a few pictures of the insides.


HI,

I removed the front panel.. I think removing the back is a better option.I saw a video someone opening the iCAN using the front panel, and I followed it through.   

Regards,
Tushar.


----------



## dcguy73

vonBaron said:


> You should try buy good USB converter and try using coaxial input, for me it was significant upgrade over USB.



@vonBaron, I've moved my KTE Singxer SU-1 from my main system to the bedroom system. You're right, going through the Singxer to the iDSD via coaxial does sound better than USB. It takes the edge off the sound without a loss of clarity.

Unfortunately, it's not possible to play DSD files on the iDSD through SPDIF, nor high sample rates.

I still think the microSDHC card sounds better yet, though that goes through the USB interface. Seems weird that it comes out on top.


----------



## vonBaron

That what i've heard with my M2Tech Evo Two, USB is good but not the best.


----------



## Baten

dcguy73 said:


> @vonBaron, I've moved my KTE Singxer SU-1 from my main system to the bedroom system. You're right, going through the Singxer to the iDSD via coaxial does sound better than USB.


Well this is as good an opportunity as any, I'm moving my KTE SU-1 over to the for sale section soon, if anyone is interested in one PM me


----------



## iFi audio

dcguy73 said:


> I still think the microSDHC card sounds better yet, though that goes through the USB interface. Seems weird that it comes out on top.



Some respected industry people would take microSD card playback over anything else easily. And yes, to my ears it also sounds very good


----------



## Nikinoz

iFi audio said:


> Some respected industry people would take microSD card playback over anything else easily. And yes, to my ears it also sounds very good



Is 128 GB always going to be the max limit? That was my original question regarding sound quality via the SDcard 🙂


----------



## iFi audio

Nikinoz said:


> Is 128 GB always going to be the max limit?



I have no feedback at the moment, but I passed your comment to our tech staff. If they can do something about it in next FW updates, they will.


----------



## Nikinoz

iFi audio said:


> I have no feedback at the moment, but I passed your comment to our tech staff. If they can do something about it in next FW updates, they will.


Thanks 🙂👍


----------



## iFi audio

Nikinoz said:


> Thanks 🙂👍



Sure, anytime!


----------



## MLGrado (Sep 20, 2020)

iFi audio said:


> Pro iDSD's USB input is galvanically isolated, so putting i.e. iGalvanic3.0 before it would be a bit excessive. But hey, I won't stop you



I am in no way doubting you.  Unfortunately my experiences with other products that use internal galvanic isolation have left me wanting.

If you have completely separate analog and digital sections, with no ground whatsoever tying the two together (easier said than done.. see John Swenson's multiple treatise on the nature of the beast) then there should be minimal or even theoretically NO noise or nasties crossing over via anything, except for the well controlled optical isolated 'bridges' between the two that should send just data, clock and if necessary clean power across.  In that case, no audio interference type noise crosses over, only data  and clock signals that can be easily reclocked via a large data buffer and a brand new super clean clock for the digital side only.

Some devices like the aforementioned Wyred4Sound only use isolation on the I2S port, since that is what the Amanero USB chipset calls for.  But as I can attest, the noise from the digital side EASILY makes its way over to the analog side, which is a bad recipe for ultimate fidelity.  The ENTIRE digital and analog sections must be completely isolated from each other, (assuming this is done competently) with only the galvanic iso-optical devices connecting digital and analog sides.

It just so happens the iDSD Pro is completely isolated, as is the only way this should be done.  Measurements (no, I am NOT the measurements guy, but I never said there are cases in which they are not useful) show equal clock.jitter performance on the iDSD Pro regardless of the input, be in USB, SPDIF, BNC, etc.  You name it.  And that is a sign of excellent engineering, with as complete separation of the digital and analog section as you are going to get.


Now as to ME, and why I still use external Galvanic Isolation. Mental problems?  Paranoia?  Trying to eke out 2 or 3 percent more performance?  I don't think anyone would argue that the better the signal input to the USB digital receiver, the less work it has to do.  Now, how that translates to actual performance I don't have any idea, as excellent as the internal galvanic isolation seems to be.

So for now, just call me paranoid. haha

I am NOT suggesting anyone go out and waste 300 bucks on an external galvanic isolator for the iDSD Pro.  Not really necessary for this device.  Now, there ARE Dac's I would give a whole hearted recommendation you do just that... but not this one.  It just happens I had one in storage from a previous DAC I owned, so why not?


----------



## MLGrado

dcguy73 said:


> Okay, surgery completed. The iDSD's stock tubes have been replaced with WE936As. Here are a few pictures of the insides.



Okay.  I have been evaluating my iDSD Pro with the Western Electric tubes.  I also have several backup pair of the GE, and a pair of RCA from the 60's.  

I must say, the Western Electric Tubes will take the sound of the iDSD to another level. 

Just make SURE they are New Old Stock, or at the very, very least only the lightest of use, and make sure they measure properly for this tube.


----------



## MLGrado

iFi audio said:


> Very cool. I'm glad you were able to do this on your own. Although the procedure itself might look complicated, executed once it can only get easier and easier in the future. But then again, it's going to take a while to beat those WE tubes you just installed. Enjoy



I agree wholeheartedly.  The WE 396A in proper shape to do this DAC justice are few and far inbetween.  But once you find that pair, OH MY.  You will be re-listening to everything you own.  It truly is 'next level' sound and will sound better than quite a few of those $+ERE()PHILE Class A+ AND class A examples.


----------



## iFi audio

MLGrado said:


> It just happens I had one in storage from a previous DAC I owned, so why not?



Exactly. If it works for you, who are we to judge  ?



MLGrado said:


> Now as to ME, and why I still use external Galvanic Isolation. Mental problems? Paranoia? Trying to eke out 2 or 3 percent more performance? I don't think anyone would argue that the better the signal input to the USB digital receiver, the less work it has to do. Now, how that translates to actual performance I don't have any idea, as excellent as the internal galvanic isolation seems to be.



As above, if having one iGalvanic3.0 extra works for you, by all means use it! After several weeks I'd unplug it, just to see what happens then, as in: whether there's going to be any change at all, be it good or bad.


----------



## MLGrado (Sep 25, 2020)

iFi audio said:


> Exactly. If it works for you, who are we to judge  ?
> 
> 
> 
> As above, if having one iGalvanic3.0 extra works for you, by all means use it! After several weeks I'd unplug it, just to see what happens then, as in: whether there's going to be any change at all, be it good or bad.



I have been experimenting with USB "add on" devices the last week or so.  My original setup was as follows:

Mac Mini for Roon Core duties, all FLAC, WAV, DSF, etc on a 20TB Synology network server.

Believe it or not, I still have my original iUSB 2.0 Micro, and the first generation Gemini two headed USB cable.

And just for more good measure, attached directly to the iDSD Pro is an iPurifier 3.

Well, I concluded today that you guys, as I should have of course expected, are right about external devices not necessarily being of benefit in THIS particular reference level piece.

The first real discovery I made in regards to the USB output from the USB Galvanic Isolator, (sorry, I have not gone iFi there just yet.. its the pro model by Intona) is after removing the iUSB 2.0, and Gemini split cable which was providing power via a custom 5v LPS, the iDSD was no longer recognized by the Roon software nor (obviously) playing any music.  Removing the iPurifier 3, and voila issue solved. The Intona Galvanic Isolator will not pass enough current to power the iPurifier 3.  So OUT went the iPurifier 3.

By consequence out went the iUSB 2.0and the original Gemini cord.  But I still have the Intona Galvanic isolator in at the moment.. I am sure I will work up the guts at some point to dive right in and see how nice the water is sans external Galvanic isolation.

And the overall consequence, simplifying greatly the signal chain I was pumping into the iDSD Pro, letting the Pro do its 'thing' compared to my exercise in double paranoia with all these add ons that are not necessary for this particular DAC, has well, left my jaw on the ground for the last hour.

BEST computer audio I have ever heard in my system, and its by what we would say in these parts of Appalachia, besting the old way by a few country miles.

----

Now, I just need to check into how well it sounds, letting the 100 percent galvanic isolation in the iDSD Pro do its job by taking the Intona isolator out. Just like it didn't need any of the aforementioned help, I am betting you guys are going to be 100 percent correct yet again.

Wow.  I just can't believe how this sounds.  Its amazing.  No doubt this is Class A performance, that rivals stuff costing quite a bit more.

The United States audio press, specifically Stereophile, has dropped the ball here.  Big time.  Who knows why, but iFi is often overlooked or even disparaged by the 'professional' rags.  And the decidedly 'unprofessional' internet rags that probably have never heard the iDSD Pro or ever listened to any iFi product, period.  Or one of their lackeys saw the iDSD Pro and its comparative  'performance' number in forming an opinion.

Yeah I know that sounds incredibly cynical, but it really is the truth!  Our hobby is a listeners hobby!

For goodness sakes before you state an opinion on a product please have actually heard and evaluated it yourself!  That would make the head-fi world such a better place to live! 

Bottom line.

Regardless of your needs in a desktop DAC and/or headphone amp, you WON'T find better at the same price or lower.  (remember I owned the very nice sounding and even MORE complicated RME ADI-2 fs for a year or so, it you were about to throw that out as a contender)

To get better you had better be prepared to spend for it.  For my money, the sound I am hearing right now with said changes listed above, there is nothing better.  truly better?  We are starting to talk twice the price to even approaching 5 figures.

I have said in the past I have a ton of respect for Paul Miller and the professional way he goes about his business.  I'm not sure enough of here across the pond in the USA are familiar with his work.  He was a pioneer in measurements on audiophile type products, such as jitter. 

He maintains an extensive database (not free, I don't believe, built really cheap to access) of digital product measurements going back years and years. 

Hi-Fi News is his rag, and it is by far my go to for reviews.  Good old fashioned print magazine.  We miss those.  Something visceral about the look, weight, even smell of the magazines twinged with excitement what great we get to read about this month.  Something that has been lost in the internet age, for better or worse. 

Speaking of finding a 'better' DAC than the iFi iDSD Pro, lets take a look at the Hi-Fi News internal ratings system.  Now you can argue inconsistencies between reviewers, of course!  Of course you can't use the numbers to compare to other magazines or review channels. But at the least it is from the same rating system and makes a genuine attempt at categorizing their ratings as best as possible given difficult circumstances.

After AMR and iFi, if you asked me for a DAC I really admired, I would mention the T+A Dacs.  Great, great stuff!  I spoke briefly to one of their engineers and he said the FIR filter uses to decode DSD in their premium DAC's is proprietary and  is twice as fast as those on board Burr Brown DAC's. 

I'll start with the cheaper T+A.  It's an integrated amp/dac with the numbers PA 1100E. The Digital SNR on the PA 1100E is 104db, A-weighted.   Jitter numbers...at 48khz the DAC measures 75 picoseconds, which is very, very good rejection.  All the same, the iFi iDSD Pro measures MUCH better at 20 picoseconds.   

That aside, the T+A PA 1100E is an excellent product, squeezing a lot out of the Burr Brown PCM1795, while newer than the DSD1793 used in iFi products, it is possible some believe the PCM1795 to be an inferior chipset comparatively.

Unfortunately, value isn't a virtue for this product, coming in at approximately $4700.00.  All sound quality observations combined led Hi Fi News to give the amp/dac a rating of 84 out of 100.

OKAY!  Let us step up to a T + A juggernaut coming in at around $8500 US dollars!  The T+A HA 200.  Now we are talking about a product on the level that might, can, and should exceed the approx. $2500 iFi iDSD Pro in performance. Info on what DAC chip is used is scarce; studying the promotional products, asking a few questions, and reading between the lines is is apparently a non-standard chip, perhaps even an FPGA and is a true single bit converter for DSD, reminding me of my discussion with one of their engineers several months ago about the 4-bit delay line used to feed the FIR filter for conversion.  (4-bit as in unary or 'thermometer' code; we aren't in Kansas anymore where all multibit files are 2's complement  )

So how does our $2500 iDSD Pro stack up?  Well, the value equation is through the ceiling.  But, as l said before, or if I didn't specifically say it, I MEANT IT.  You want better performance than the iDSD Pro?  Be prepared to pay for it dearly.   Maybe sell a kidney or something... NO don't actually do that. My luck some lamebrain will try.  The Digital SN Ratio on the T+A is an excellent 113.3 A-weighted.  Guess who is actually slightly better, though?? 

Yes, the iDSD Pro at 114.0 A-weighted. 

Now let's go down the rabbit hole to jitter land............

at 48khz both the T+A and the iFi iDSD Pro land with exceptional results of 20 picoseconds of jitter. 

Now, we finally come to a point when all those extra thousands spent on the T+A HA200 start to strut with a decisive victory over the iFi with 96khz jitter performance.  The iFi still doing its consistent thing.  That is actually a great moniker for this DAC.  Consistent.  No surprises, great performance across the board, great sound on everything etc. OH.. yes.  The numbers.  The iFi has a slight rise in jitter at 96khz to 25 picoseconds.  Nothing to see here.  For real.  But the T+A at 96khz drops jitter to <10 picoseconds.  That is an astonishing number. 

So what is our final scale rating for the nearly 10 grand T+A HA 200??  The score is.... 88 out of 100. 

Okay, before I give you the overall score of the iDSD Pro, lets talk about one more DAC.  I was just an audio geek and hobbyist in the late 90's, but by the mid 2000's, I landed a job managing a high end open to the public brick and mortar stereo and home theater store.  The best DAC/CD player I had ever heard in my life that set the standard forevermore was the SimAudio Andromeda.  Even with my 40 percent discount, no way I could ever afford a 10 grand retail CD player.  But I have been in love with Sim ever since. 

I am looking to go farther up the chain than than even that delectable T+A (minds out of gutter please  ) So let's see what sim has at the top of its new lineup of DAC/Network players. 

Aha...the SimAudio MOON 780Dv2.  Even being the latest version, Sim has stuckk to the tried and true ESS 9018 chipset rather than retool with the latest chip.  Based on the price of the kit, 18 Grand US dollars, it should have HUNG the moon. 

I love the Sim Sound, but long story short.. SNR is approx. -110db A-weighted, and the jitter performance is excellent... 33 picoseconds at 48khz, 19 picoseconds at 96khz, and 10 (yes, only 10!) picoseconds at 192khz.

But this brings me back to the original thought.. what kind of investment would be necessary to get a DAC better than iFi's extraordinary iDSD Pro???  This was no doubt a short and barely thought out exercise. 

But the measurements are plenty 'good enough' with the iDSD Pro. Purposely understated.  I am positive the T + A products are as excellent as all who hear them say.  I can say first hand how delicious the sound of Sim Audio is. 

But look at the cost!  Oh, I believe I forgot to tell you the score on the 100 scale for the iDSD... lets review first.

T + A PA 1100 E ......84
T +A HA 200............88
SimAudio 780D v2...88

and finally we come to the iDSD PRO which rates a strong......87

Yes.  87. A single point behind devices costing up to 7 times as much as on with an 88 rating. 

Indeed, after much intense listening over the months, and an equal amount of research, I really don't see how one could be much better, if better at all than the iDSD PRO, and that is if he were only using it as a DAC!  We haven't even begun to talk about the other features. The multiple output stages, the headphone amp, upsampling, DSD conversion, etc. etc.

Wow. 

Thanks iFi. As long as this DAC functions properly, it is my primary system DAC.  I see no reason to spend another 5 grand or more for what may be nothing more than trivial gains


----------



## Ficcion2

I’ve personally never heard the Pro series from IFI but I did have a Micro BL with IPurifier3 + Mercury 3.0 + 2.0 cables + iGalvanic + Defender + silencer and Ipower. 

I got some flack after posting it from members who never even heard it though admittedly it was dongle city and simplifying your chain is ultimately more desirable.

I agree there’s many baseless opinions thrown around as that only misinform new comers (like myself) to jump on the latest giant killer bandwagon.

Id like to test out their Pro IDSD some day.

I came across Matrix Audio Element series and would love to personally compare them.

I own the Element M and its everything I needed.


----------



## tushardas (Sep 24, 2020)

MLGrado said:


> I have been experimenting with USB "add on" devices the last week or so.  My original setup was as follows:
> 
> Mac Mini for Roon Core duties, all FLAC, WAV, DSF, etc on a 20TB Synology network server.
> 
> ...


I agree with your observations @MLGrado, I have a iFi iUSB3.0 I removed it and the sound is amazing. It feels the iUSB3.0 was actually bad for iDSD. The sound is now open & crisp.


----------



## MLGrado

Ficcion2 said:


> I’ve personally never heard the Pro series from IFI but I did have a Micro BL with IPurifier3 + Mercury 3.0 + 2.0 cables + iGalvanic + Defender + silencer and Ipower.
> 
> I got some flack after posting it from members who never even heard it though admittedly it was dongle city and simplifying your chain is ultimately more desirable.
> 
> ...



Now, I would be a lot more cautious in your case when giving advice on having too many things in the chain.  Those particular products, such as the Micro Black Label, are exactly the kind of product that could benefit from the add ons.  Such as it iPurifier, the iUSB etc.  

I NEVER found them a detriment, other than being a lot of cabling, haha, to the sound.  

Now, the reason that things may be different with the Pro series is so many of these devices are internally incorporated in the iDSD PRO.  Such as full Galvanic Isolation.  The power supply for the USB receiver, FPGA, etc don't come from the 5v on the USB line, so injecting clean power via a iUSB 2.0 or 3.0 isn't necessary and is redundant. 

Cheaper DACs and/or amps?  You should receive NO bullying for the add ons.  Goodness, there are other audio brands whose own expensive DACs can still benefit from add ones. Look for my experience with Galvanic Isolation and Wyred4Sound.  

But based on many hours now of listening, I can hear for myself what iFi has been trying to say all along... the addons really are NOT for the PRO lineup of products.  They are highly engineered as to not need them.


----------



## Ficcion2 (Sep 24, 2020)

All of the add ons made notable sonic differences like you noted

The end result was super nice and quite more refined than plugged in straight with the stock blue cable.

I would advise anyone to use IPurifier3 and Galvanic especially for the non Pro IFI DACs.

Id just suggest getting the dongles used because IMO a desktop set up at that price will probably satisfy one more.

The only reason I sold my iFI gear is because Id rather stream so the iDSD still has my interest even though I love my Matrix.

Good to know it doesn’t require any more stuff like other makes ( I think I know what you’re talking about) and is a true all in one solution.


----------



## iFi audio

MLGrado said:


> But look at the cost! Oh, I believe I forgot to tell you the score on the 100 scale for the iDSD... lets review first.
> 
> T + A PA 1100 E ......84
> T +A HA 200............88
> ...



Wow, that's a LOT of feedback to digest! I need to show this to our tech team to make their weekend this much better    

But yes, as far as measurements go we did our homework and I'm happy to see your findings! There probably are DACs that sound better, but we're happy what we did and how many functions we were able to stuff inside one small box.


----------



## MLGrado (Sep 26, 2020)

iFi audio said:


> Wow, that's a LOT of feedback to digest! I need to show this to our tech team to make their weekend this much better
> 
> But yes, as far as measurements go we did our homework and I'm happy to see your findings! There probably are DACs that sound better, but we're happy what we did and how many functions we were able to stuff inside one small box.



No matter how good any one is at anything, there is always some one else out there doing it better.  That is just life.

My little comparo of grades from hi-fi news in an attempt to show reviews with some bit of graded consistency is very imperfect. Even more so than I originally allowed in my mind, I must admit.  Even if all the reviewers are in on the process, the variables are way, way too many and time quickly fades any audio memories of past products.  'What have you made for me lately?' is very, very much the game in the audio press who, let's be honest, isn't all in it for the fun of it.  Lots of $$$ at stake.

I saw the latest issue of Hi-fi News today that reviewed the new entry level DAC from Music Fidelity.  No Headamp, no bells and whistles at all, really.  Cost around 500 pounds if I remember correctly.  Nothing special at all about the design. Off the shelf TI/Burr Brown stuff.  PCM1795 DAC chip.   Has impeccable jitter rejection at first look at 9 picoseconds.  Overall SNR is quite impressive too -111db.  But wait a tic... And all that jitter rejection is accomplished by a matching Burr Brown ASRC.  Some funky things I could guess, speculate and expound on all day how they manage to use a ASRC built for PCM to process DSD.

Anyway, the overall sound quality rating is an 87.  Same as iDSD Pro.

It is SUPPOSED to be strictly a sound quality rating.  Value shouldn't factor in. But as human beings, of course it does, even if sub-conciously.

Stereophile over here on this side of the pond has the same tendencies. You have $50,000 DACs ranked in class A, and out of nowhere the $500 Pro-Ject giant killer also sits in class A.  Of course the iDSD Pro is in class B, and J.A. can't stop talking about oddities in the measurements.  What I am almost positive he is speaking of  is simply the fact that when BitPerfect mode is selected, there isn't any oversampling happening at all in what would be the 8x reconstruction filter of course, and with all the but the top 6 bits of the PCM file going to a Third order delta sigma converter that is now running on a slower clock than expected means the noise shaping curve starts a bit earlier and the slight rise can be seen to start before 20khz. It really is a very minor and simple thing.  And I have seen him make similar jabs at the iDSD Pro in other articles that just seem to come out of the blue?!  Why was that necessary?  Was my thought the first time I saw it...

So again, trying to make sense of the audio press is a complete mind f*&^k.  No consistencies, and sometimes things like this that come from complete left field and just leaving you scratching your head say 'huh'?  over and over.

So I close with a repeat of my Audio Gospel.  Don't depend on the myriad of reviews and 'measurements' from every guy that has a computer with a sound card and can create a FFT.  LISTEN to the products.  What you ears say is best to you, IS THE BEST TO YOU.

And if you can't find a way to get a listen to what you are interested in, find community such as this where there are willing and trustworthy folk who will go out of their way to help you with any questions you have, and you may even find trustworthy trade partners that loan out such products so everyone can get a real taste of what we are talking about 

Peace to all

Andrew

Oh, and P.S.   I just opened up Audirvana for the first time in along time on my MacMini to listen to several of the SACD .ISO files I have that Roon will not play until I convert them to DSF files.  Which is a process I am doing, but then you had over 150 SACD images, its arduous to put it nicely.  But Roon is so good, and I have always felt sounded better than any other player, assuming that software would even make a difference.  Not going to argue that one, so let's not even get started.  Let us just call it a curiosity and a fun early morning experiement


----------



## iFi audio

MLGrado said:


> No matter how good any one is at anything, there is always some one else out there doing it better. That is just life.



So very true!



MLGrado said:


> So I close with a repeat of my Audio Gospel. Don't depend on the myriad of reviews and 'measurements' from every guy that has a computer with a sound card and can create a FFT. LISTEN to the products. What you ears say is best to you, IS THE BEST TO YOU.



If done well and not manipulated, measurements can tell us whether a product is engineered correctly. But they won't tell us whether we'll enjoy it. So yes, listening is the only way.



MLGrado said:


> Stereophile over here on this side of the pond has the same tendencies. You have $50,000 DACs ranked in class A, and out of nowhere the $500 Pro-Ject giant killer also sits in class A. Of course the iDSD Pro is in class B, and J.A. can't stop talking about oddities in the measurements. What I am almost positive he is speaking of is simply the fact that when BitPerfect mode is selected, there isn't any oversampling happening at all in what would be the 8x reconstruction filter of course, and with all the but the top 6 bits of the PCM file going to a Third order delta sigma converter that is now running on a slower clock than expected means the noise shaping curve starts a bit earlier and the slight rise can be seen to start before 20khz. It really is a very minor and simple thing. And I have seen him make similar jabs at the iDSD Pro in other articles that just seem to come out of the blue?! Why was that necessary? Was my thought the first time I saw it...



It's all OK, we take all critic on the chin


----------



## hsimsh10

dstubked said:


> Wow, thanks for the confirmation. I switched it to the atomic symbol. This thing really scales with an external clock! Same observation as you have. I'm also getting more resolution and definitely hearing subtle details in familiar tracks that I never heard before.


Hi Guys
I also bought MUTEC REF-10  and connected it to my IFI Pro IDSD using "atomic clock " option. SQ was  significantly improved when I use ethernet connection (Spotify Connect to the DAC).
However, when I  use USB input  - play Roon in my windows 10 server that   is   connected by USB to the DAC - I do not hear much improvement and I get intermittent errors  - "Extern Sync Clock Error!".
How can I fix it?


----------



## dcguy73 (Oct 4, 2020)

@iFi audio, would you care to elaborate on the DSD limitations of microSD cards in the iDSD Pro? I've learned from experience that iDSD Pro/Muzo can't "see" or handle DSD256 files. What's the limit exactly? DSD128? DSD64?

Thanks!


----------



## hsimsh10

hsimsh10 said:


> Hi Guys
> I also bought MUTEC REF-10  and connected it to my IFI Pro IDSD using "atomic clock " option. SQ was  significantly improved when I use ethernet connection (Spotify Connect to the DAC).
> However, when I  use USB input  - play Roon in my windows 10 server that   is   connected by USB to the DAC - I do not hear much improvement and I get intermittent errors  - "Extern Sync Clock Error!".
> How can I fix it?


@iFi audio , could you help me out here ?


----------



## iFi audio

dcguy73 said:


> @iFi audio, would you care to elaborate on the DSD limitations of microSD cards in the iDSD Pro? I've learned from experience that iDSD Pro/Muzo can't "see" or handle DSD256 files. What's the limit exactly? DSD128? DSD64?
> 
> Thanks!



I'll get back to you on this one shortly!



hsimsh10 said:


> @iFi audio , could you help me out here ?



The best way would be to open up a ticket at our support platform here: https://support.ifi-audio.com

The odds are that our staff saw your error already and they might know what to do.


----------



## iFi audio

dcguy73 said:


> @iFi audio, would you care to elaborate on the DSD limitations of microSD cards in the iDSD Pro? I've learned from experience that iDSD Pro/Muzo can't "see" or handle DSD256 files. What's the limit exactly? DSD128? DSD64?



I'm still waiting for an answer for you, but in the meantime (page 10, on the bottom):  https://ifi-audio.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Pro-iDSD-User-Manual-Ver1.6.pdf

"DSD files put on a microSD card must be encoded as DoP FLAC files"


----------



## hsimsh10

iFi audio said:


> I'll get back to you on this one shortly!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I open the ticket on Sep 29th. 
I received a message from your service desk  on Oct 4th asking for more information which I immediately provided. Since then no response...
Could you help ?
Ticket number is #660151


----------



## Baten

hsimsh10 said:


> I received a message from your service desk  on Oct 4th asking for more information which I immediately provided. Since then no response...
> Could you help ?
> Ticket number is #660151


Gosh can you give them some time to investigate? Oct 4th isn't exactly long ago


----------



## dcguy73

iFi audio said:


> I'm still waiting for an answer for you, but in the meantime (page 10, on the bottom):  https://ifi-audio.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Pro-iDSD-User-Manual-Ver1.6.pdf
> "DSD files put on a microSD card must be encoded as DoP FLAC files"



@iFi audio, my latest discovery is that DoP128 (24/176) files on microSD cards don't work on the iDSD Pro -- Muzo can "see" them, but it won't play them. So that leaves DoP64 as the last iteration of DSD to test on a microSD card. I really, really hope DoP64 works on this DAC, because this has been a disappointing learning experience about the limitations of what the iDSD Pro can actually do.


----------



## hsimsh10

Another related questions - 
when I  use Muzo - If I play MQA  tracks  that reside on my NAS then The Ifi Pro  Idsd identifies and plays them as MQA. However it cannot identify MQA tracks from Tital.  Why is that?
I can play MQA  tracks from Tidal if I use Mconnect....

As for DSD - both application can play only DSD64, no higher resolution.
If I  use Roon via USB - the iFI   can play up to DSD 512.
How  can it be fixed?


----------



## MLGrado (Oct 11, 2020)

iFi, question about the sinc function.

When using DSD remastering, if the source file is for example 44.1khz, and one chooses Bitperfect filter, does the oversampling to DSD eliminate the sinc rolloff  before the Nyquist cutoff (fs/2) of the original 44.1khz PCM audio?

Or will the sinc rolloff, which starts well before fs/2 be encoded into the DSD remaster stream?


Thanks


----------



## iFi audio

dcguy73 said:


> @iFi audio, my latest discovery is that DoP128 (24/176) files on microSD cards don't work on the iDSD Pro -- Muzo can "see" them, but it won't play them. So that leaves DoP64 as the last iteration of DSD to test on a microSD card. I really, really hope DoP64 works on this DAC, because this has been a disappointing learning experience about the limitations of what the iDSD Pro can actually do.



I would suspect that the Muzo app itself has something to do with this. Let me ask about this.



hsimsh10 said:


> when I use Muzo - If I play MQA tracks that reside on my NAS then The Ifi Pro Idsd identifies and plays them as MQA. However it cannot identify MQA tracks from Tital. Why is that?
> I can play MQA tracks from Tidal if I use Mconnect....



If Pro iDSD plays MQA from a NAS but not from Tidal, I'd check Tidal's settings. 



hsimsh10 said:


> As for DSD - both application can play only DSD64, no higher resolution.
> If I use Roon via USB - the iFI can play up to DSD 512.
> How can it be fixed?



Pro iDSD is able to natively process DSD512 via USB, but other digital inputs can handle DSD64 (via DoP) at most.



MLGrado said:


> iFi, question about the sinc function.
> 
> When using DSD remastering, if the source file is for example 44.1khz, and one chooses Bitperfect filter, does the oversampling to DSD eliminate the sinc rolloff before the Nyquist cutoff (fs/2) of the original 44.1khz PCM audio?
> 
> ...



I'll ask internally about this and will get back to you


----------



## hsimsh10

iFi audio said:


> I would suspect that the Muzo app itself has something to do with this. Let me ask about this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry. I did a mistake in my question.
Let me ask it again.


iFi audio said:


> I would suspect that the Muzo app itself has something to do with this. Let me ask about this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi  @iFi audio 
Please let me rephrase my question - 
When I use Muzo on my iPAD - If I play MQA tracks that reside on my NAS then The Ifi Pro Idsd identifies and plays them as MQA. However If I use Muzo to play Tidal then it cannot identify MQA tracks of Tidal.  My account in Tidal enables me to play Mater/MQA   tracks.
If I use Mconnect App on same Ipad -  and play Tidal by this App - I can  browse and play Mater/MQA tracks flawlessly.
I  believe there is some problem  between Muzo and  Tidal...
Could you check it out?


----------



## iFi audio

hsimsh10 said:


> Hi @iFi audio
> Please let me rephrase my question -
> When I use Muzo on my iPAD - If I play MQA tracks that reside on my NAS then The Ifi Pro Idsd identifies and plays them as MQA. However If I use Muzo to play Tidal then it cannot identify MQA tracks of Tidal. My account in Tidal enables me to play Mater/MQA tracks.
> If I use Mconnect App on same Ipad - and play Tidal by this App - I can browse and play Mater/MQA tracks flawlessly.
> ...



You could open up a support ticket on our platform and ask our tech staff about this. Perhaps they will be able to help you: https://support.ifi-audio.com

But in general, Pro iDSD in both scenarios you listed is an end device that works with what it's sent to it. The fact that it displays MQA with one setup and not with the other, already informs us that what is sent out from Tidal via Muzo is not MQA and most likely some signal processing happens along the road. MQA can't be altered in any way to be MQA, which is why my advice would be to check all your settings, contact Tidal and Muzo support directly and ask about possible reason.


----------



## MLGrado (Oct 15, 2020)

iFi,

I asked earlier about the sinc function when converting 44.1khz PCM (or really any PCM rate) to DSD, without oversampling the PCM file first.  Specifically does the sinc rolloff persist through the conversion to DSD.  After studying the matter, I have concluded that it absolutely should,since its a natural consequence of the math underlying the process.  Whether its done in the analog domain or the digital domain, the math is the same.

So the best filter choice, unless you like the Bitperfect rolloff, is Bitferfect + or my personal fav, the GTO filter.  GTO is the best digital filter I have yet heard.  Period.  Good job. 

Thanks!

Andrew


----------



## iFi audio

MLGrado said:


> iFi,
> 
> I asked earlier about the sinc function when converting 44.1khz PCM (or really any PCM rate) to DSD, without oversampling the PCM file first. Specifically does the sinc rolloff persist through the conversion to DSD. After studying the matter, I have concluded that it absolutely should,since its a natural consequence of the math underlying the process. Whether its done in the analog domain or the digital domain, the math is the same.
> 
> ...



Thanks Andrew   

I don't have a reply from our HQ just yet, but once it arrives I'll put it in here and will let you know.


----------



## tushardas

MLGrado said:


> When it comes to psu current having too little is the sin.. but the spec doesn't represent a constant number, it references a potential peak draw.  You can't have too much when it comes to potential current.
> 
> Seeing how the iCan Pro and iDSD Pro can be run off the single supply, one would think indeed the called for PSU would need to have its possible peak draw higher for that very purpose.
> 
> ...


Dear All,

@MLGrado do you think the below power supply will work for Pro iDSD
https://www.sotm-audio.com/sotmwp/english/portfolio-item/sps-500/


----------



## MLGrado (Oct 19, 2020)

tushardas said:


> Dear All,
> 
> @MLGrado do you think the below power supply will work for Pro iDSD
> https://www.sotm-audio.com/sotmwp/english/portfolio-item/sps-500/



I would leave the answer to that to ifi.  It doesn't have the proper voltage output, but it CAN go all the way to 19v, but falls short of the iFi recommended 4 amps at 15v.  I would be surprised if it did NOT work, but lets leave it to the experts over at iFi Skunkworks.


Interesting LPS's are on folks minds this morning.  Mine too.

I have have been perusing over at Audio Science Review.. of course they have a measurement standard which if isn't met, the equipment is junk, overpriced, insert derogatory here.

Also it must be boring when all your top DAC's sound the same. They meet their measurement litmus testing, so shouldn't that by their own rules make them all sound the same?? Boring.. Actually you probably could take an ESS chipset with small variations on its reference design and come up with a whole lot of DAC's that DO sound exactly the same.  Anyway...

While over there, they actually DID confirm the real, measurable differences with the Intona USB2.0 Galvanic Isolator.  I didn't need their confirmation.  The USB Galvanic isolator is a MUST for many a DAC.  I can't   tell you any more that my real, undeniable results, because we are not talking about microdecibels here or something.  I have a Icon Audio HP-8 Tube Headamp, and before that an Icon Stereo 20 integrated based on an old LEAK design.  I was using a Wyred4Sound DAC-1LE femto edition at the time.  I expect my volume control to be if not dead quiet at 100 percent, it needs to be reasonably quiet.  (Don't try this experiment with music playing, lol)  Unfortunately, from 3/4 gain to full gain on volume pot, very, very high levels of background noise.  Well past any acceptable level.  Enter the Intona USB2.0 Galvanic Isolation.  GONE.  NADA.  QUIET AS A MOUSE  all the way to full volume.

Now what about the iFi iDSD PRO???  Lets start with the INTONA.  I keep it around because I don't feel DAC makers have a real feel on USB audio, or if they do, they take shortcuts.  I am PROUD to say iFi shows NO need for the INTONA Isolator.  Their internal handling of the USB and related digital sections is an example of how it should be done!


But, now lets get to the LPS.  LPS vs switching supplies are a much trickier thing in my personal experience.  With the iFi Switching supply hooked up to my Mac Mini running Roon, (at this point the Intona was still in the equation) And listening via the iFi headphone out?? BRAVO!!!  I felt no need to spend money on an unneded LPS.

BUT.......

leaving the iFi switching supply in place, but this time listening through the Icon HP-8, losts of garbage noise/hissing.  Going back to the sBooster linear PS, all of that gone.  perfectly clean.


So my personal observations are, as far as switching supplies go, iFi makes a great one, especially combined with their own equipment ps filters, etc.  The headphone output with the switching supply is dead quiet, even at full volume (of course I mean with nothing actually playing 

As is so happens in MY case, in which I must embarrassingly admit a lot of sharing and proximity between standard PC parts and their dirty supplies, the only way to have maximum SNR that my system can reproduce is to replace the iFi iDSD Pro switching supply with a linear power supply, in my case being the SBooster, which in spite of some small controversy about it works with iFi, it is exceptional in My setup.  

Oh, I have to get one last friendly little jab at our friends over at ASReview.  No, these are not instances of expectation bias causing the differences in my head.  One day I will  have am AP analyzer or similar ready to go, hopefully in the next year.  Then I can show you exactly what kind of differences I am talking about, since actually listening doesn't do anything for you


----------



## iFi audio

MLGrado said:


> I would leave the answer to that to ifi. It doesn't have the proper voltage output, but it CAN go all the way to 19v, but falls short of the iFi recommended 4 amps at 15v. I would be surprised if it did NOT work, but lets leave it to the experts over at iFi Skunkworks.



Our tech staff didn't say what might happen if rating you listed isn't met. However if that's what they gave me to pass on further, I would consider it as what the product needs to work without isses.


----------



## MLGrado

iFi audio said:


> Our tech staff didn't say what might happen if rating you listed isn't met. However if that's what they gave me to pass on further, I would consider it as what the product needs to work without isses.



I actually have to correct myself.  The product in question can actually push 5a at up to 12v.   But the next stop on the ladder is all the way up to 19v, with max current draw 3.3a.

And I feel a need to clarify a bit my stance on this.  I only know what my LPS is doing. It works great.  I was unaware it didn't match the 15v/4a spec given by iFi when I bought it in a package deal.  

But I can't and won't recommend ANY third party supplies that don't match those specs.  Yes they may work just fine, but I'm never going to tell anyone to ignore the very manufacturer's specs at the risk of poor performance or even worse, risk of product damage. 

I also suspect my issue with the iFi supplied power supply isn't a universal issue.  I have what is a very, very good sounding amp, (especially with NOS tubes.. right now a GE 5751 tri mica black plate from 1957 and a couple Sylvania 6F8G output tubes) but there must be something local here in my system that creates pulsating distortions and noises at high volume levels when the ifi switching supply is in the system.  The LPS eliminates it all, but I suspect it has something more to do with the grounding in the Icon Amp than it has to do with the iFi switching supply throwing massive levels of noise back out into the system.  I would expect that of a typical cheap switching supply, but I don't expect it from iFi.  Anyway, its a curiosity I intend to investigate further, just because I am miserably obsessive compulsive like that.  (I am guessing I can just start with a ground lift on the amp and it goes bye-bye)


----------



## Nikinoz

MLGrado said:


> I would leave the answer to that to ifi.  It doesn't have the proper voltage output, but it CAN go all the way to 19v, but falls short of the iFi recommended 4 amps at 15v.  I would be surprised if it did NOT work, but lets leave it to the experts over at iFi Skunkworks.
> 
> 
> Interesting LPS's are on folks minds this morning.  Mine too.
> ...



There is a lot of subjective objectivism on ASR, and I found myself agreeing with many of the points raised by the review of ASR over on Superbestaudiofriends.org


----------



## MLGrado (Oct 22, 2020)

Nikinoz said:


> There is a lot of subjective objectivism on ASR, and I found myself agreeing with many of the points raised by the review of ASR over on Superbestaudiofriends.org



Subjective objectivism?  Is that more like an oxymoron?   I kid, I kid hahaa

Of course there are valid opinions (and conversely invalid, in my opinion  ) on all these forums.

I find a whole lot of narrow mindedness, though, in review sites that seem to mainly favor tech measurements, and seem to act as validation for someone's purchase.  To frame this a bit better, I am a right brained, very left handed classical musician with highly accurate pitch memory/reproduction. (Perfect pitch is a terrible misnomer for what it really is).  So maybe that bit of knowledge will help someone understand where I come from as I state the following...

I still believe significant value is found in one's personal reality and experience of the world.  Philosophy is NOT dead, and as much as the arch-type of the narrow minded of whom I speak, Neal  Tyson, would like to think.  The scientific method, which most ironically was formulated by religious, philosophical men, is so narrow that much of what is reality will never be proven.  Even if a room full of people saw Plato himself resurrected from the grave and quoted lost classical works that are very real yet lost, you couldn't prove it 'objectively'.  Not as defined by the method.  Even if it was video taped, ah, its a fake!! Right?? We can go on and on and on.  And it IS true the more we learn, the less we actually know.  We close ourselves to potentially limitless possibilities in our hubris.  Now, I am not trying to start a philosophical argument, I'm just giving the world an insight into my own twisted version of reality that exists inside of my head and colors subjective experience I have.  Be glad you don't live in my head  The twisted webs of various unrelated and oft overlapping cognitive dissonances requires quite a good wine to quiet these days.  Oh who am I kidding.  I am a Scots Irish hillbilly living in the foothills of the Smoky Mountains.  There is a authentic 'corn from a jar' distillery (in pieces at the moment) made personally for my family by the (in)famous Popcorn Sutton sitting 10 feet from me right now as I type out on the back porch.  For reals.  Not even my twisted mind could have made that one up.


Anyway, in THIS head.  Measurements are very, very important.  But I get pissed, terribly pissed when they become a dogma that renders any subjective experience meaningless, at least to these who are so 'enlightened'.  Some of the best DACs I have ever heard are good old fashioned R2R ladder DACs that don't need any of the modern age of ultra sophisticated algorithms that make a single bit, 6 decibel dynamic range format that gains only a little bit more resolution than that through time splicing averaging and multiple massive error feedbacks of the favorite flavors of the moment.  Noise shaping is an amazing trick.  These new chips are wonderful things, sound wonderful, and even can finally effectively digitally filter DSD so it can be re-modulated up to 1024 times Red Book CD's sample rate per second.  For the first time in my life, iFi put together on a FPGA a DSD upsampler that can take native DSD files and spit out a result that might actually sound as good or better than the original.  And iFi will know what I just said is the HIGhEST of praise.  I still listen TO DSD128 and DSD256 natively, but the proprietary algos they have developed make DSD64 sound BETTER than bitperfect native conversion.  Its an amazing feat that required just the right filter to dump the ultrasonic rise that is so close to audible band without doing anything seemingly to compromise the strength of the format, that is, time resolution.

But even all that praise said, get a nice R2R DAC with say PCM1704 in dual dif. or more.  You don't need to go non-oversampling.  Use whatever that product has chosen to be the best for their analog stage.  I bet a bunch of you will be blown away by what is certainly a different kind of sound, and in the ears of many a more natural sound that sounds like, well, actual music or even analog reproduction.  Anecdotal evidence?  Loads of it.  Loads being the important part.  There are still loads and loads of people who prefer the sound of those products whose measurements are comparatively dogcrap compared to that latest 400 dollar sig-del to come from China.  Something isn't adding up yet.  Unless you think all the folks who like these products with older tech are actually the ones with dogcrap, such as stuffed in their ears... umm no,

Here is the most likely thing.  As much as we know of the human brain and its sensory processing abilities... wait... I have to go have a good laugh at that statement.  We still don't know dogcrap about how the brain actually works, what subjective experience actually is, does what looks like yellow to me actually look like green in your subjective experience if I were somehow given a window into it.. yada yada.

I believe measurements are important in their place.  I believe opening our minds, allowing some alternative views and insights in the 'club', and really trying to understand how to reproduce audio effectively so one day our children's hi-fi will sound scarily like the actual live performance.  Subjective experience, blind testing with no bias about the results going in or coming out, perhaps stop chasing this mythical SNR or SINAD Dragon so much we may actually have missed out on some actually important insights or discoveries that lead to that future hi-fi just above in this paragraph.

So, thats where I stand.  An eccentric who unfortunately sometimes tends toward Howard Hughes levels of compulsion, deal with manic depression, anxiety issues, and in the middle of trying to figure out how the hell you could ever linearize DSD with dither,contemplate the meaning of God, life itself, who am I, what's my purpose, and why does quantization distortion only leave behind noise?  Shouldn't it leave behind a massively distorted waveform regardless of the fact all that noise is above our hearing abilty?  Every seen a 20khz sine wave sampled in DSD64 in a scope?  How in the hell is THAT supposed to sound anything like what was sampled????


Hmmmmm.... based on this post, must be a Mania day.  Guess I will enjoy it and buy a bunch of iFi products before I inevitably crash and wonder what I was doing all this time... maybe re-purchase the RME DAC.  The one that scores great on the measurments scale, sounds pretty damn great too, and is relatively cheap.  I actually miss it.  Great product.  But despite any measurements you may see (actually, the iDSD Pro measures with the best of DACs in and even somewhat above its class) I couldn't keep the RME.  The iFi did all those things the RME couldn't.  It sounded like music.  It was engaging.  Incredibly engaging.  It had tone that almost felt like you could touch it, it was so present.  Overall it was an extremely close battle between two well engineered products.  But I know iFi puts value in all those things I mentioned I heard in it I didn't in the RME.  But I feel like I still need the RME around as I continue to review some products to have as my go to 'bogey' by with to gauge.  I think that would be an extremely popular decision with many people.  Its a great product for just that kind of purpose.

Still, it aint no iDSD Pro.  Wow... what a sound.  Yeah, it may very well by my end game, until something extremely compelling comes along that doesn't break the 10k price barrier.


----------



## iFi audio

MLGrado said:


> Subjective objectivism?  Is that more like an oxymoron?   I kid, I kid hahaa
> 
> Of course there are valid opinions (and conversely invalid, in my opinion  ) on all these forums.
> 
> ...



If it goes on like that you might want to write a book about Pro iDSD 



MLGrado said:


> But I can't and won't recommend ANY third party supplies that don't match those specs. Yes they may work just fine, but I'm never going to tell anyone to ignore the very manufacturer's specs at the risk of poor performance or even worse, risk of product damage.



Sure thing. If I get any clarification re LPSUs and Pro iDSD, I'll put it in here as promised. All good.


----------



## MLGrado (Oct 22, 2020)

iFi audio said:


> If it goes on like that you might want to write a book about Pro iDSD
> 
> 
> 
> Sure thing. If I get any clarification re LPSUs and Pro iDSD, I'll put it in here as promised. All good.



Don't have the time or energy tonight but I have been experimenting with the power supplies, my own system and its grounding scheme, figured out why I was getting some noise with the iFi iDSD Pro supplied power supply versus the aftermarket SBooster linear supply. 

I will explain in full later, but I figured out exactly the source of the noise... of course it was from the tube amp, not the iFi Switching supply.

Furthermore, after a couple hours listening to the iDSD Pro with its proper power supply.  OH MY.  I know I am prone to hyperbole but get ready for more.  The pedigree of the iFi iPower supplies is well earned.  Quiet, maybe quieter now than any of my LPS.  The soundstage has enlarged, fine details are now coming out I had not noticed in my favorite songs, everything sounds even 'more right'.

I will explain more about my floating ground situation and how it backfired on me in this case later; suffice to say for now, just save your $$ and use the iFi supplied power supply!  If you have slight noise issues, its not the iFi part.  It something else in your system and grounding scheme. 

Bravo again iFi.  I am afraid I am starting to sound like a fanboy.  I am going to need to when I finally get around to my full review which will now be more like an essay find some negative things to say for my own integrity!  No offense, guys 

But its just a damn good sounding DAC.  Maybe some folks can't get around the complexity or the fact a certain site or two can't get past the use of 'obsolete' chips like the DSD1793 in favor of the flavors of the day from ESS and AKM.  No one should care.  If you can't figure it out, talk to iFi.  They will walk you through it.  Talk to me if you like.  PM me and I will help you all day with how to get the best out of this thing.  If you are looking for a DAC and this is in your price range, you must at least hear it. 

All right... I am off site for a few days now.  I know my tendency to annoy.  My wife reminds me every night... see y'all again soon with that extra info on power and grounding.


----------



## iFi audio

MLGrado said:


> Bravo again iFi. I am afraid I am starting to sound like a fanboy.



It's all OK, if you have reasons to be one we'll take it 



MLGrado said:


> see y'all again soon with that extra info on power and grounding.



Whenever you're ready to share, I'll be around 



MLGrado said:


> Don't have the time or energy tonight but I have been experimenting with the power supplies, my own system and its grounding scheme, figured out why I was getting some noise with the iFi iDSD Pro supplied power supply versus the aftermarket SBooster linear supply.
> 
> I will explain in full later, but I figured out exactly the source of the noise... of course it was from the tube amp, not the iFi Switching supply.
> 
> ...



Our products often highlight aspects off within a setup and at times are wrongly bashed for it. PSUs for the Pro range is the standard victim, but in reality they're deadly quiet. We have nothing against LPSUs, but what we make we like more


----------



## TooFrank

Hi all,
Seriously considering buying a Pro iDSD. Does it fare well with all kinds of cans. Will mainly/only use as standalone with headphones. I have Stellia's, a variety of Grado's, HD650, Beoplay H6 etc. Until now I have the pro-ject pre box S2 digital together with a Graham Slee Solo ULDE. Works really good, but I recently -  for portable use  - bought the micro iDSD BL. It seems to outperform the other stuff - arghhh. So I am thinking what would the Pro iDSD bring to the table? From the reviews I guess a lot. However, how old is the current model? Saw that a new micro iDSD is coming out - so can we also await a new Pro iDSD?
So many thanks for any input


----------



## MLGrado (Oct 24, 2020)

About the iFi iDSD Pro Power Supply….



Like probably a few of you, SMPS is a dirty acronym to me. Computer Audio has really brought these dirty little SMPS creatures that are part of our everyday 21st century digital express lane existence. I have bought numerous Linear Power Supplies for all the new fangled ‘audiophile’ components that have joined the digital express lane. Even if those replacement Linear Power Supplies did nothing but fix my compulsive audiophilia, that was okay enough.

I know iFi has created and proved with their measurements outstanding switched mode power supplies. But old habits die very hard. When I purchased my iDSD Pro, it was pre-owned and was in fact a great deal because it came with an expensive SBooster Linear Power Supply. It worked great.

*But, in fact I still AM tweaking on this setup, trying to squeeze all I can out of it, and am still preparing a full scale review pitting it against DACs from RME, Project, SMSL, Topping, Gustard, and hopefully a comparo to the soon to be released iDSD Signature. So I needed to hear it with the stock supply.*



One of my first tests of a DAC is for noise. I use an old fashioned technique that is fitting the fact I am using an old fashioned Tube Amp with tubes made before Word War II for amplification. ----- DAC and AMP both on, headphones plugged in to AMP, Software player is running on computer, PCM file with an oversampling filter, in this case the incredible GTO filter, is played then PAUSED. Now, that’s the really important part, since we are now going to slowly turn the volume dial on the tube amp to full blast. Make SURE you are ready to get those headphones off your ears or can instantly kill the sound if necessary to avoid mangled ear drums! /:



DAC that failed this test miserably was the Wyred4Sound DAC-1LE with ESS9018 and upgraded Femto clock. Massive random electrostatic/electromagnetic noise. Mind you putting external Galvanic Isolation on USB output fixed it. From then on, NO background noise through Hifiman HE-560 was notable through the entire volume range of the Amplifier.



Fastforward, you must know not only the equipment these days is drastically different, also it is plugged into the grid with something of a plan, for better or worse, to help high end audio co-exist with the Mac Mini, HP All in One PC, Monitors, Cable Modem, network switches and routers, etc.

W4S DAC long gone at this time, so can’t say how it would have acted in my current setup. But several DACs have been in there with little or no audible noise. EXCEPT for most recently with the iDSD PRO when I took the Sbooster power supply out of the chain and put the iFi supplied power supply in. Now there was some notable, not really loud, but certainly notable random noise that had some pulsations and what not, and varied between channels. I wasn’t going to instantly blame this on the iFi power supply. I had to test things out further.



Which goes to the heart of how my system receives its power. DISCLAIMER that you should never do what I have done in the name of safety. As unlikely as I will ever come into any danger whatsoever, the disclaimer still applies. Don’t do it. If you do it is at your own risk. Everything EXCEPT my Icon Audio HP8 headphone amp and the iFi DAC are all earth grounded properly via the standard route through power strips plugged into the wall. The Icon and the iFi, on the other hand, share a separate power strip that while it plugs into same system, has a FLOATING GROUND via what is called a ‘cheater plug’ you can get at Home Depot, Lowes etc. There are other, safer and more expensive ways to separate your stuff from the common earth ground and ‘float’ it. For me, in what is probably not the smartest of moves, the money saved with the simple cheater plug is fine.

Now, what would that have to do with the sudden noise that only became noticeable when the iFi power supply was put in place? Those two devices that float on the ground still have ground pins that connect to one another via their common Furman power strip. The Sbooster power supply broke that ground link because it is by nature galvanically isolated internally via transformer. The iFi power supply was not.


I realized these two products although floating from the main earth ground, needed to be disconnected at their respective ground limited to the power strip they share. Simple. Took the available anywhere cheap power cord, some plyers and twisted to ground pin off the cord that was providing power the the iFi SMPS. VOILA!!! PROBLEM SOLVED. Output via tube amp perhaps even quieter than ever!



*Now it if only ended there… Oh no. Running off the stock power supply the iFi Idsd PRO took on an even more authoritative character in the low end. Tight, musical prodigious bass that frankly seemed to be missing with the aftermarket supply. Overall detail increased, soundstage and imaging took a tick up, and speed and transient impact… YES!!! FINALLY. I knew the iFi had the incredible tone and musicality I was seeking; now I could hear how compromised it had been made divorced from its iPower supply. Now there was speed and transient power! But never, never any harshness. I can crank this thing up all day and hear nothing but fatigue free, powerful and beautiful music.*

*Moral of the fable? (Other than find ways to float ground other than cheater plugs) The moral is to listen to iFi when the say their custom made supply just for the iDSD is exactly and probably only what you should be using. Time and time again they have reminded us that aftermarket, even expensive ones, linear supplies won’t necessarily make it better and may even degrade the performance. It did in my case.*



*I can’t wait for the aforementioned DAC’s to arrive for my comparison reviews and shootouts. They had better bring big game, because my iDSD Pro is sounding better than ever!*


----------



## MLGrado

TooFrank said:


> Hi all,
> Seriously considering buying a Pro iDSD. Does it fare well with all kinds of cans. Will mainly/only use as standalone with headphones. I have Stellia's, a variety of Grado's, HD650, Beoplay H6 etc. Until now I have the pro-ject pre box S2 digital together with a Graham Slee Solo ULDE. Works really good, but I recently -  for portable use  - bought the micro iDSD BL. It seems to outperform the other stuff - arghhh. So I am thinking what would the Pro iDSD bring to the table? From the reviews I guess a lot. However, how old is the current model? Saw that a new micro iDSD is coming out - so can we also await a new Pro iDSD?
> So many thanks for any input



Its headphone output is one of the most flexible and powerful you are going to find.  Will be difficult to find 'phones that trip it up.  That goes for IEM's too.  

I started the original thread on the iDSD Micro when it came out in 2014.  Its a monster, monster thread.  So monstrous I haven't been there in a while   Black Label is just a slightly better version of that.  

The Pro iDSD is one of the serious contenders for anyone looking for an 'end game' DAC/Headphone combo or even just a standalone DAC.  Of course this is not portable stuff in any way, shape or form.  It is a seriously different beast than the Micro iDSD BL.  Both in application and performance.  And I wouldn't expect any kind of true 'replacement' successor for a long long time.  Maybe firmware updates to the FPGA to add features, maybe a 'Black Label' or 'Signature' type of re-do with a bit more exotic or esoteric caps, resistors, clock, etc. Nothing fundamental though for a long, long time.  

I would think you might be interested in the recently announced variation on the iDSD Micro BL.  The 'signature' edition.  Which is a 'souped up' version of the Black Label similar to what I speculated above about any type of 'new' iDSD Pro....

https://ifi-audio.com/products/micro-idsd-signature/


----------



## dcguy73

MLGrado said:


> About the iFi iDSD Pro Power Supply….
> 
> 
> 
> ...


@MLGrado, you've been doing exhaustive testing with your iDSD Pro over the course of this thread. I commend you for trying and sharing your efforts to max out your setup. 

I'm a bit surprised that you found the iDSD stock power supply to sound better in your system than the SBooster, and immediately put the latter up for sale. You've convinced me to give the standard SMPS power supply another go.


----------



## MLGrado (Oct 24, 2020)

dcguy73 said:


> @MLGrado, you've been doing exhaustive testing with your iDSD Pro over the course of this thread. I commend you for trying and sharing your efforts to max out your setup.
> 
> I'm a bit surprised that you found the iDSD stock power supply to sound better in your system than the SBooster, and immediately put the latter up for sale. You've convinced me to give the standard SMPS power supply another go.




I apologise to you and everyone who reads for any confusion!  Early impressions vs continuing listening can make a huge difference!  If only because I had the system in better setup and understood it more and had really discovered its capabilities after sorting through myriad options. 

The sBooster has nothing to be ashamed of.  Nothing.  It worked perfectly from day one, actually did its job perfectly in correcting a noise/grounding issue in my setup.  That in itself is a tremendous compliment to its engineers and design.  I also am of the opinion now that there is no issues at all with the SBooster being 'underpowered' or 'unsuitable' for the iDSD Pro.  Per the info contained with the SBooster, any Switching Supply rating is its absolute maximum current rating.  In other words, that's all its got.  If the product needs more, especially for any extended time, too bad!  The SBooster probably actually has more than enough current, as LPS supplies often have no issues with peaks even 200 percent greater than their rating. 

The switch back to the stock supply was the last in a line of changes.  Pretty much every USB 'doodad' I had is now in storage.  The iDSD Pro doesn't need them, and I have come to the conclusion at least excessive redundancy may actually hurt the sound.  I could go into great detail why I had all of the following in play; there really was a method to the madness.  But the Pro just didn't need it. 

1. Its internal Galvanic Isolation covers the entire input side. Noise just isn't going to make it past the isolation and get into the critical master clock, buffer, DAC, and following analog components. 

2. Following from there, almost every other USB accessory came out. And the sound didn't just stay the same. It started to open up and sound better every day. 

3. No more esoteric Gemini split power/data USB cable or iUSB Hub.  Going with just a Wireworld Chroma USB.  Again, if USB cables actually make a difference, I am not going to argue with anyone one way or the other.  But it certainly seemed to be part of the upward climb to what is really a sound that I could call end-game.  It is that good.

4. The only attachment I still have is the iPurifier 3.  Even with the excellent noise rejection from the internal Galvanic Isolation in the iDSD Pro, I still really believe the less work the USB receiver has to do, the better it is for everything in the DAC downstream when it comes to jitter.  It just again is part of a system that sounds better than any head fi I have ever owned.  And I am still using my backup headphones here.  It sounds so great I have barely given a thought to the fact I sold all my 'flagships'.  Makes it exciting to think about later possibilities.

5. So you have to consider all that first before we even get to the change from the SBooster to back to stock.  The SBooster IMO is still an excellent power supply, probably better than most.  It is dead quiet, does its job with aplomb filtering noise, is robust, high quality, and apparently even further upgradable?  Not sure about that, but I think it is.

With the excellent performance I am getting considering ALL the above, it just seemed prudent to let some one else have the SBooster and take advantage of it.  It is a great product.


----------



## TooFrank

MLGrado said:


> Its headphone output is one of the most flexible and powerful you are going to find.  Will be difficult to find 'phones that trip it up.  That goes for IEM's too.
> 
> I started the original thread on the iDSD Micro when it came out in 2014.  Its a monster, monster thread.  So monstrous I haven't been there in a while   Black Label is just a slightly better version of that.
> 
> ...


Many thanks for your input. Meanwhile I have bought the Pro after a short listening session 😜Waiting for it to arrive next week. So now having both the pro and the bl, I should probably lay low for a long time.....


----------



## dcguy73 (Oct 25, 2020)

MLGrado said:


> I apologise to you and everyone who reads for any confusion!  Early impressions vs continuing listening can make a huge difference!  If only because I had the system in better setup and understood it more and had really discovered its capabilities after sorting through myriad options.
> 
> The sBooster has nothing to be ashamed of.  Nothing.  It worked perfectly from day one, actually did its job perfectly in correcting a noise/grounding issue in my setup.  That in itself is a tremendous compliment to its engineers and design.  I also am of the opinion now that there is no issues at all with the SBooster being 'underpowered' or 'unsuitable' for the iDSD Pro.  Per the info contained with the SBooster, any Switching Supply rating is its absolute maximum current rating.  In other words, that's all its got.  If the product needs more, especially for any extended time, too bad!  The SBooster probably actually has more than enough current, as LPS supplies often have no issues with peaks even 200 percent greater than their rating.
> 
> ...


Last night, I experimented with the iDSD Pro's stock power supply and my linear power supply to see if I could hear clear differences between the two.  I connected my headphones to the iCan Pro, not the iDSD Pro, as I only wanted to observe changes to the sound of the DAC's output.

I connected the stock power supply to the iDSD Pro, listened for 5 minutes, turned the unit off, connected the linear power supply, and listened for another 5 minutes. I repeated this for a half-hour.

The differences were small, but in my system, the music sounded a little louder and "popped" a little more with the linear power supply. When I switched to the stock power supply, the music was a little softer and a little less "present." The blackness of the background was more apparent with the linear power supply.

*YMMV, of course.* I'm not sure if the iDSD Pro stock power supply would sound better plugged directly into the wall. Because I have very crappy power in my circa-1950s apartment building, I run all of my components through a PS Audio P5 Power Plant.

I'm disappointed after running the experiment, because I thought I'd be able to remove the linear power supply and free up more space in my audio rack.


----------



## MLGrado

dcguy73 said:


> Last night, I experimented with the iDSD Pro's stock power supply and my linear power supply to see if I could hear clear differences between the two.  I connected my headphones to the iCan Pro, not the iDSD Pro, as I only wanted to observe changes to the sound of the DAC's output.
> 
> I connected the stock power supply to the iDSD Pro, listened for 5 minutes, turned the unit off, connected the linear power supply, and listened for another 5 minutes. I repeated this for a half-hour.
> 
> ...



I think you hit on the most important thing here noting your power situation.  Everyone has different powerline quality, not to mention the variances in individual equipment and the varied interactions and reactions.  I am prone to hyperbole, and I know it.  Know thy self, right?  Haha.  So consider the context.  The actual difference in sound between the two is small and required lots of critical listening and really in the end could not be divorced from other system related system tweaks.  

The best thing about a Linear Supply as far as I am concerned is if it is built correctly, the transformer should be an excellent noise barrier between components.  Like in my case, I would never have noted the noise leaking from my Tube Amp via the ground plug.  And even if I hadn't broke the ground connection, we are only talking about background noises audible at full volume.  As a tube amp, SNR isn't the end all anyway, but those 'leaky' noises were probably hovering 85dbs down.  Not at all to be unexpected from a tube amp.  To ever hear them in actual listening, you would be frying your ears.  

The other thing I think is its crazy we can have this discussion.  It shouldn't be a contest.  LPS should win, hands down.  That is just the way it has been for as long as hi-fi has been around.  LPS beats SMPS.  iFi is flipping the script.  Now, I am not sure what that really means for the hobby in the long run one way or the other.  I don't know why iFi chose to stick with SMPS.  But they are using them, and their versions are real winners.  RME is another one using SMPS.  They don't even bother to use a low noise customized product. It is off the shelf, but their internal filtering does work well.  But when I owned the RME DAC, I still wouldn't even consider using the SMPS.  I had a custom LPS made for it and never looked back. It was just superior.  

Interesting topic!  

Peace

Andrew


----------



## MLGrado

JWahl said:


> **Edited title to focus on Pro iDSD**
> 
> I was looking through the following CES 2014 coverage and it seems that iFi Audio is planning on launching a new traditional desktop enclosure line of components, starting with the iDSD desktop DAC/Headphone-amp/Preamp.
> 
> ...



Wow look at that old prototype.  iFi, were you guys not calling it something like iDSD Mini at the time?  We had all just started getting our 'Crowd Designed' iDSD Micro 'Octa Adopter' promotional DAC's.  I still remember hearing about the coming desktop version and knew it would be mine.  It was worth the wait!  Even if I had to wait even longer myself before I could afford it, I think jumping in when I did was about perfect, since the product is now so mature.  

I remember back in those older days how finicky USB audio could be with computers, with all the 'pops' and 'clicks' glitches and other nasties.  Nowadays it is just a polished product.  One thing about the iDSD Pro that doesn't seem to get enough talk is that is just works!  All those gazillion features, two tube modes, Solid State mode, filters galore, industry leading upsampling, etc, etc,... and it just all works.  Everytime, all the time.  Remarkable.  But that is why it took so long for it to get to us I am sure   Kudos for getting it right, even if it took years.  

Looking forward to the next big thing..  considering its now a 'PRO' line, what I was and still am hoping for is an iFi PRO ADC.  Dunno if the market would make it worth if for you guys, but you already have exceeded pretty much everyone with pro studio level DSD upsampling on the FPGA.  It wouldn't be a stretch to turn around and make a top level DSD ADC using the proprietary software genius stuff you have going on.  You could even bring to the masses the best DSD-editing that is possible and still be able to reasonably call it DSD.  Record at 1-bit DSD1024, leaving you with a file that the most gentle of filters could be used preserving massive amounts of temporal resolution when it goes to to multi-bit editing mode.  Or better yet FORGET the current models

change the game and rewrite the system.... use FPGA to sample at 8 bit (256 thermometer code levels) oversampled 256 times.  With no need for any intermediate filtering or conversions, the editing software would recognize that sampled data as its native working environment and you could edit all day long with just as much flexibility theoretically as any mature PCM system.  Mix multiple channels, downmix to stereo, whatever you need.  THEN you could create whatever you want from that such as 1 bit DSD256, and you would have the most flexible, best sounding DSD recording system in the world.  

It never made sense to me why it wasn't done this way from the beginning. Typical of the DSD era, (aside from some converters like Grimm) the ADC is sampling at multibit delta sigma internally ALREADY, but instead of using THAT file as the master for editing, its downsampled to   1 bit DSD64, 128 whatever.... which can't be edited anymore, so it has to be made editable again!!! With for example processes like DSD-Wide in the Sonoma System,  where the ultrasonic noise is filtered out in process of creating another 8 bit 64x oversampled format to edit, then finally converted back to final 1 bit format.  SAY WHAT????  I GUESS WHAT I HAVE TRIED TO SAY with WAY too many words, is why didn't the format START AS DSD-WIDE from the very beginning???  From the first moment of analog to digital conversion and stay that way!  Until the final process when you could decimate to PCM or modulate to whatever 1 bit rate you want.  

Or am I off my rocker here?  iFi could be the innovators yet again and reset the way DSD recording is done, going back and making it everything it should have been from the start.  

Okay, well, happy Sunday folks!  The Xanax is finally kicking in, so my mentally ill OCD brain is shutting down. 

Peace!


----------



## iFi audio (Oct 26, 2020)

MLGrado said:


> Wow look at that old prototype. iFi, were you guys not calling it something like iDSD Mini at the time?



This was in fact the first revision of a device that now is known as Pro iDSD. Instead of a proper display it had openings on its forehead that formed into letters and digits. It was a cool design, but what we did several years later, well, we like more 



MLGrado said:


> I think you hit on the most important thing here noting your power situation. Everyone has different powerline quality, not to mention the variances in individual equipment and the varied interactions and reactions.



I agree, power is a complicated subject and very specific. Digital components are sensitive to it more than analog equipment. And having said this, it's not a surprise that you liked our regular PSU more than LPSU, but at the same time I understand why @dcguy73  liked his LPSU more in his room and setup.


----------



## MLGrado (Oct 28, 2020)

I have found my new test recording extraordinaire.  The Alpha of test tracks.  Not only is the dynamic range impressive, the recording hall has distinct impact on the timbre, linearity and of course timing.  To be able to reproduce this album at its best will require a robust DAC. It can easily be made to sound too bright in the treble, the mids can easily sound 'sucked' in or muffled such as the case of the horns during the most glorious hymn smack dab in the middle of the 'Jupiter' movement.

Of course I am talking about a recording of Holst's 'The Planets'. Performed by the Kansas City Symphony under Michael Stern.  Recorded by the PCM master... Prof. Johnson of Reference Recordings. 

Qubuz just added the master recording, at 24bit 176.4khz.  Appears you can download it direct from RR website too.  This is not a delta sigma made recording.  No, it was done by perhaps the greatest ADC that ever existed, and is a 'pure' PCM ADC.  Pacific Microsonics Model 2.  This will be my torture test for any DAC from now on.  It is my litmus test.  Actually, it goes for more than just DAC's.  It will be my go to track for headphones, speakers, head-amps.... anything relatable. 

*The iDSD PRO pulls it off with aplomb. Especially in 'BIT Perfect' mode.  If you like DSD remastering (which I do as well) I think you aren't giving this particular recording its due.  If you don't like the consequences bypassing the FPGA filters, go for GTO.  *

*The iDSD Pro's only bottlenecks are now my Icon Audio amp, and the headphones used.  Which means my next purchase is the iFi iCan Pro for head to head war with the Icon.   *

Read about the recording here.  The SACD is sourced from the PCM mix.  As to how the surround mix is created, I do not know.  But the Stereo 176.4Khz master.. Wow.

https://referencerecordings.com/recording/holst-the-planets/

Even more fun (to me) is reading about Pacific Microsonics.  They have been discontinued hardware for many years now.  Here's to hoping the existing units stay on top of their game for decades to come. 

http://www.goodwinshighend.com/manufacturers/pacific_microsonics/pacific_microsonics_model_two.htm


----------



## iFi audio

MLGrado said:


> Of course I am talking about a recording of Holst's 'The Planets'.



Can't say that I'm a fan of classical music, but I'll give this one a try


----------



## MLGrado

iFi audio said:


> Can't say that I'm a fan of classical music, but I'll give this one a try



Go ask Thorsten about the Pacific Microsonics ADC Prof. Johnson uses at Reference Recordings


----------



## m-i-c-k-e-y (Oct 30, 2020)

MLGrado said:


> I have found my new test recording extraordinaire.



off_topic: *ON*

Let me share my mine

From Native DSD (get at least on DSD256 -> orginal recording format):
Libertango (One Microphone Recording) - Jose Ariel Palacio, Trio de Curda

From Sound Liaison one microphone recordings (get original recording format -> DXD wav) :
Feenbrothers - Play Dave Brubeck
Carmen Gomes Inc. - Don't You Cry

off_topic: *OFF*


----------



## iFi audio

MLGrado said:


> Go ask Thorsten about the Pacific Microsonics ADC Prof. Johnson uses at Reference Recordings



Will do!



m-i-c-k-e-y said:


> off_topic: *ON*
> 
> ...
> 
> off_topic: *OFF*



This should be the new standard how to mark stuff not related to the core thread


----------



## hsimsh10

Guys, 
Another subject -
Tidal introduced Tidal Connect which  is same as Spotify Connect. It working on all Bluesound devices. 
does anyone know when will it be supported in IFI?


----------



## iFi audio

hsimsh10 said:


> does anyone know when will it be supported in IFI?



I'll ask internally and will get back to you as soon as I know something.


----------



## iFi audio

hsimsh10 said:


> does anyone know when will it be supported in IFI?



Just an update: our tech team is investigating Tidal Connect, but this doesn't mean anything specific. We're looking into this, so it might or may not happen. We'll see


----------



## hsimsh10

iFi audio said:


> Just an update: our tech team is investigating Tidal Connect, but this doesn't mean anything specific. We're looking into this, so it might or may not happen. We'll see


It is strange. If you read Tidal Connect website - it is written there that IFI supports tidal connect ...


----------



## iFi audio

hsimsh10 said:


> It is strange. If you read Tidal Connect website - it is written there that IFI supports tidal connect ...



It might be there by default due to a network component inside Pro iDSD. But I'll ask about this as well.


----------



## hsimsh10

iFi audio said:


> It might be there by default due to a network component inside Pro iDSD. But I'll ask about this as well.


I tested it in my system. It is not working with my IFI PRO IDSD.
But I am with firmware version 2.01...
Thanks  
Haim


----------



## iFi audio

hsimsh10 said:


> I tested it in my system. It is not working with my IFI PRO IDSD.
> But I am with firmware version 2.01...
> Thanks
> Haim



If this is meant to work, we'd most likely need to have a new firmware for the product.


----------



## hsimsh10

iFi audio said:


> If this is meant to work, we'd most likely need to have a new firmware for the product.


I upgraded to V2.08.  Still not working ....


----------



## Sphere 57

hsimsh10 said:


> I upgraded to V2.08.  Still not working ....


Firmware 2.08 was released over a year ago, so I would be surprised if it had any relevance to Tidal Connect.
The only iFi product listed as supported on the Tidal Connect page is the Aurora.


----------



## hsimsh10

iFi audio said:


> If this is meant to work, we'd most likely need to have a new firmware for the product.


I upgraded to V2.08 and still i cannot use tidal connect with my IFI PRO


----------



## hsimsh10

Sphere 57 said:


> Firmware 2.08 was released over a year ago, so I would be surprised if it had any relevance to Tidal Connect.
> The only iFi product listed as supported on the Tidal Connect page is the Aurora.


Ok thanks


----------



## iFi audio

hsimsh10 said:


> I upgraded to V2.08 and still i cannot use tidal connect with my IFI PRO



That's because we'd need to have a new firmware with Tidal Connect functionality embedded. Currently we don't have that and our tech team is investigating how to do it.


----------



## TooFrank

Last week I received this device. Knew it would be better than the micro BL. Have a lot of headphones, but also bought the hifiMAN Arya. Holy smoke. I am still sitting flabbergasted and thinking wauw...No matter which HP (Stellia, Grado's, HD650, HifiMAN etc.) and what kind of music, I throw at it, it never cease to amaze and impress me. I definitely won't look back....


----------



## iFi audio

TooFrank said:


> Last week I received this device. Knew it would be better than the micro BL. Have a lot of headphones, but also bought the hifiMAN Arya. Holy smoke. I am still sitting flabbergasted and thinking wauw...No matter which HP (Stellia, Grado's, HD650, HifiMAN etc.) and what kind of music, I throw at it, it never cease to amaze and impress me. I definitely won't look back....



Did you mean Pro iDSD by any chance  ?


----------



## TooFrank

iFi audio said:


> Did you mean Pro iDSD by any chance  ?


What else?


----------



## iFi audio

TooFrank said:


> What else?



Excellent, enjoy


----------



## tushardas (Nov 10, 2020)

iDSD With JS-2 & EtherREGEN..

I have to agree the SQ is entirely different.. Just awesome.. I don’t know if it is the JS-2 or the EtherREGEN or combination of both. I feed the iDSD Pro via Lumin U1.

Whatever the reason the Buchardt A500’s is now sounding awesomeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee….


----------



## Sebastien Chiu

Awesomeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee_e._

I added another e in there for good measure!


----------



## iFi audio

tushardas said:


> Whatever the reason the Buchardt A500’s is now sounding awesomeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee….



These speakers are said to be giant killers, but they come with a small digital box to which they connect wirelessly. Or is your A500 pair without it?


----------



## Hoegaardener70

I lately have a problem with my ifi Pro iDSD in combination with the iCan Pro. I get a nasty distortion sound (when playing and when not playing music) from the iCan which drives me crazy. The iDSD is connected via USB to my PC and persists even when I unplug the USB cable, and the removable antenna of the iDSD. Any ideas what to do? Thanks


----------



## tushardas

iFi audio said:


> These speakers are said to be giant killers, but they come with a small digital box to which they connect wirelessly. Or is your A500 pair without it?


I connected to the XLR input. I do not use the WISA HUB.


----------



## iFi audio

Hoegaardener70 said:


> I lately have a problem with my ifi Pro iDSD in combination with the iCan Pro. I get a nasty distortion sound (when playing and when not playing music) from the iCan which drives me crazy. The iDSD is connected via USB to my PC and persists even when I unplug the USB cable, and the removable antenna of the iDSD. Any ideas what to do? Thanks



Please let our support know by opening a ticket here: https://support.ifi-audio.com

They will do their best to help you out!



tushardas said:


> I connected to the XLR input. I do not use the WISA HUB.



Understood. Was there any reason in particular why you didn't use that box?


----------



## tushardas

iFi audio said:


> Understood. Was there any reason in particular why you didn't use that box?


The WISA transfer is capped at 24/96 max, and also the XLR input has a 1-2-1 conversion of the Analog-digital-analog signal. There is no digital sound on top, so the TUBE sound is not altered.. Believe me, the sound is everywhere, the vocals actually tell you where the speakers are placed, else the music is all around you..


----------



## iFi audio

tushardas said:


> The WISA transfer is capped at 24/96 max,



Thanks for explaining and that's true, WISA is 24/96.



tushardas said:


> XLR input has a 1-2-1 conversion of the Analog-digital-analog signal.



If this double conversion doesn't audibly cripple music you hear, that's great. I took interest in that Buchardt box because it offers cool in-room correction that doesn't require anything else but a smartphone's own mic. Knowing that room acoustics in most cases is the biggest issue, I'd take a look into that for sure.


----------



## TooFrank

Hoegaardener70 said:


> I lately have a problem with my ifi Pro iDSD in combination with the iCan Pro. I get a nasty distortion sound (when playing and when not playing music) from the iCan which drives me crazy. The iDSD is connected via USB to my PC and persists even when I unplug the USB cable, and the removable antenna of the iDSD. Any ideas what to do? Thanks


FWIW: please check this YouTube review by Currawong . At around 21 min, he is mentioning sort of the same, but when connecting to a different amp. Speculates that it has to do with the WiFi? I really love my new pro, I only use the headphone amp, but I once in a while have noticed some background hiss. However, only experienced this when not playing music.


----------



## Hoegaardener70

TooFrank said:


> FWIW: please check this YouTube review by Currawong . At around 21 min, he is mentioning sort of the same, but when connecting to a different amp. Speculates that it has to do with the WiFi? I really love my new pro, I only use the headphone amp, but I once in a while have noticed some background hiss. However, only experienced this when not playing music.





Thanks - I know the review but forgot he mentioned it. I actually need to do some more experiments, is it the idsd or the ican Pro? I also have an ifi micro BL which does not have any issues with the USB signal coming from the PC. It actually could be the power source ...


----------



## iFi audio

Hoegaardener70 said:


> It actually could be the power source ...



Could be an external power supply for example. Can you open up a ticket here please: https://support.ifi-audio.com/


----------



## TooFrank

Hoegaardener70 said:


> Thanks - I know the review but forgot he mentioned it. I actually need to do some more experiments, is it the idsd or the ican Pro? I also have an ifi micro BL which does not have any issues with the USB signal coming from the PC. It actually could be the power source ...


I thought he mentioned the WiFi as potential source?


----------



## Hoegaardener70

TooFrank said:


> I thought he mentioned the WiFi as potential source?


Yes, but I unscrewed the antenna ... so I guess it is not this. Anyway, will do what ifi suggested and open a ticket. Nice they are available to help.


----------



## iFi audio

Hoegaardener70 said:


> Nice they are available to help.



We sure are


----------



## Ric4001 (Nov 20, 2020)

I just bought the IDSD Pro.  I use Plex Media Server as my source for streaming my music collection.  Plex Media Server is installed on a computer on my local wifi network and I stream from it to various devices in my home.  From the Plex iPhone app, I can stream wirelessly from the Plex Media Server to the IDSD via Airplay.  How would I stream wirelessly to the IDSD from the Plex app on my android devices?


----------



## iFi audio

Ric4001 said:


> I just bought the IDSD Pro.  I use Plex Media Server as my source for streaming my music collection.  Plex Media Server is installed on a computer on my local wifi network and I stream from it to various devices in my home.  From the Plex iPhone app, I can stream wirelessly from the Plex Media Server to the IDSD via Airplay.  How would I stream wirelessly to the IDSD from the Plex app on my android devices?



Let me ask our staff about that. Perhaps they have something solid to try out


----------



## hsimsh10

Hi Community
A question - I noticed that if I start up the my IFI PRO IDSD while I push the filter selection knob, then I enter into service mode. 
The screen now includes more details, for example, external clock 10 MHz (when I use it). 
Is there any available document that explains what I can do in this mode and what are all other new information presented on the screen?


----------



## iFi audio

hsimsh10 said:


> Hi Community
> A question - I noticed that if I start up the my IFI PRO IDSD while I push the filter selection knob, then I enter into service mode.
> The screen now includes more details, for example, external clock 10 MHz (when I use it).
> Is there any available document that explains what I can do in this mode and what are all other new information presented on the screen?



Everything we have to say about Pro iDSD is found in this manual:

https://ifi-audio.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Pro-iDSD-User-Manual-Ver1.70.pdf

Enjoy!


----------



## hsimsh10

Well,
There is no answer to my question in this manual...
I read the manual and everything in your website before I asked my question.
By the way - if you need to reset the Ifi pro - you can do it if you start it up while you push the input selection knob. Not in the manual as well ...


----------



## iFi audio

hsimsh10 said:


> There is no answer to my question in this manual...
> I read the manual and everything in your website before I asked my question.



Understood.



hsimsh10 said:


> Is there any available document that explains what I can do in this mode and what are all other new information presented on the screen?



There is no such a document.


----------



## iFi audio

Ric4001 said:


> I just bought the IDSD Pro. I use Plex Media Server as my source for streaming my music collection. Plex Media Server is installed on a computer on my local wifi network and I stream from it to various devices in my home. From the Plex iPhone app, I can stream wirelessly from the Plex Media Server to the IDSD via Airplay. How would I stream wirelessly to the IDSD from the Plex app on my android devices?



You could try mconnect.


----------



## TooFrank

I have tried to use the WiFi (wsp) connection. when watching videos, there is a very noticeable time lag between picture and sound.  Makes it very annoying to see/listen to. Is there any advice on how to avoid this? Many thanks....


----------



## iFi audio

TooFrank said:


> I have tried to use the WiFi (wsp) connection. when watching videos, there is a very noticeable time lag between picture and sound. Makes it very annoying to see/listen to. Is there any advice on how to avoid this? Many thanks....



It probably narrows down to your software settings. Can you let us know about this here: https://support.ifi-audio.com

Thanks!


----------



## dcguy73 (Nov 29, 2020)

And now, this thread has 500,000+ views. Pop the champagne, everyone, we've done it!  I'm sure Head-Fi will be sending out attendance and participation awards soon...not to mention the huge discounts we'll get from @iFi audio.


----------



## iFi audio

dcguy73 said:


> And now, this thread has 500,000+ views.



Wow, already?



dcguy73 said:


> I'm sure Head-Fi will be sending out attendance and participation awards soon



But of course 



dcguy73 said:


> not to mention the huge discounts we'll get from @iFi audio.



Ay caramba, I honestly don't know what to say


----------



## MLGrado (Dec 7, 2020)

iFi guys,

I have a question here that gets into probably proprietary info that you cannot answer but perhaps a general answer might be given by one of your engineers and/or programmers...

DSD upconversion.  

Specifically DSD TO DSD upconversion. 

I understand why Bitperfect 'filter' cannot be selected in this case.  In order to re-modulate a DSD signal it needs proper filtering for at least a couple reasons... possible overload of the 'remodulator', and the need to actually provide a benefit in the upconversion... reducing the actual noise shaped quantization noise to make it easier on analog systems, achieving lower intermodulation distortion, and better linearity. 

But, the available choices for DSD filtering... GTO, Apodizing, and Transient Aligned... wow.  It seems to my ear that these really ARE choices in how the original DSD file will be filtered based on my ear.  My question is how do these filter parameters differ from their PCM counterparts and also their PCM to DSD conversion counterparts?

Is DSD converted to twos complement PCM in this filtering process before being remodulated?  Something like how Pyramix works with their DXD intermediate?  That actually is fine with me considering that the current Pyramix system proccesses DSD256 at 24 bit 1.4 megahertz!  I am not going to complain if that is the intermediate format. 

Or is the output of the DSD to DSD remaster filter two's complement PCM but maintains DSD sample rates of ORIGINAL file of 2.8mhz, 5.6, 11.2 etc. with a very slow and gentle roll off to maintain transient information? Before re-modulation to DSD512/DSD1024?

Or is this intermediate signal maintained in the Delta Sigma thermometer/unary code domain at original sample rate during filtration with GTO, Apodizing ETC. and then being remodulated to DSD512 or DSD1024?  

If that is the case, how many taps in the delay line necessary to filter the 1 bit original DSD file on the FPGA??   For instance, the standard onboard DSD conversion of the DSD1793 chip has an 8 'bit' delay line, but unlike a lot of other implementations the taps are not equally weighted for the specific low pass frequency and desired rolloff.  But it is still thermometer code so it doesn't care where it is scrambled to.  The output some might say is 9 level SDM implemented like a digital filter but with discrete analog parts and voltage summing to make the actual signal rather than the binary numbers that 'will' make that voltage eventually in some other DACs    And of course even with the ridiculously nice sounding FPGA filters and other magic, DSD is gonna make it to that 9 level analog FIR filter in the DSD1793 when all is said and done. 


Again I realize these are probably proprietary unanswerable questions but I thought this insomniac would give it a go at least.


I will say this about the sound.  If I have native DSD 128, DSD 256, I still prefer NO remastering.  Let it go pure native to the DSD1793 analog filter.  BUT... I have a completely different opinion about DSD64, and as one who has always pretty much been a 'purist' I can't believe I hear a noteworthy improvement remodulating DSD64 to DSD1024 on the FPGA.  I believe this goes back to what I said earlier about making DSD64 easier on the downstream analog systems with less intermodulation distortion etc. 


Thanks for all you do !


----------



## iFi audio

MLGrado said:


> iFi guys,
> 
> I have a question here that gets into probably proprietary info that you cannot answer but perhaps a general answer might be given by one of your engineers and/or programmers...
> 
> ...



At the moment I can't address your questions in a specific and meaningful way, but I'll pass on your post to our tech staff.


----------



## MLGrado (Dec 7, 2020)

iFi audio said:


> At the moment I can't address your questions in a specific and meaningful way, but I'll pass on your post to our tech staff.



I understand completely why you cannot.  I am confident you know exactly what I am asking; it is just these get into proprietary things that get into competition, NDA's, etc. 

No worries at all!!! 

For instance we only know on the most basic of levels how ESS or even high end DCS truly processes DSD in it's 'intermediate' phase. 

ESS, if their tech notes can be believed, does at least give us the frequency response to DSD64 through their IIR filter... it shows a rolloff all the way to DSD64 Nyquist.  There is enough response there, that true 'decimation' would be detrimental to the signal, and it can remain at 2.8mhz.  I am assuming that PCM eventually finds its way to that same intermediate format in the ESS chipset, a 6 bit 2.8mhz, (or 5.6, 11.2, etc for higher DSD rates) and that is how a delta sigma chipset can use an ASRC on 'DSD' just the same as 'PCM'.

But it isn't really 1 bit DSD anymore.  It could be so many things depending on what the developer wants.  Even 2's complement PCM, with oversampling and noiseshaping of course.  What would be the point otherwise???  But it could only be 2's complement in an intermediate step.. you want it absolutely back into unary code at some point for element matching/scrambling to otherwise AVOID the fact that leaves a big fat linearity problem we were trying to avoid in the first place. 

I am going to get myself a PC about the size of the Mac Mini I am using and start playing with Jussi's DSD to DSD filters and see EXACTLY what he has in mind and how it sounds. With a PC and ASIO, I am correct in thinking my iDSD Pro will via USB accept true bitstream at DSD1024?

Thanks as always!!!!  If there are proprietary things you wish not shared I have learned my lesson the first time and my PM is always open.  Otherwise, like I said, I get it and no offense. 

The PCM to DSD upsampling on the iDSD PRO FPGA is the bomb.  I don't find the extra processing of much use on native DSD 128 or DSD256 (especially 256) but you guys NAILED DSD64 upconversion.

It is like a revelation listening the DSD64 at DSD1024.  I wish more head-fi (and speaker-fi guys for that matter) could hear the magic it makes.


----------



## iFi audio

MLGrado said:


> Thanks as always!!!! If there are proprietary things you wish not shared I have learned my lesson the first time and my PM is always open. Otherwise, like I said, I get it and no offense.



It's all OK. Anything our tech dept. can say, they will through me. They're a bit swamped (OK, constantly short on time and knees deep in R&D) but once I have something from them I'll gladly share it. 



MLGrado said:


> It is like a revelation listening the DSD64 at DSD1024. I wish more head-fi (and speaker-fi guys for that matter) could hear the magic it makes.



Personally I digest everything at DSD1024, in a way it's addictive. But then again, I understand why some folks won't alter their digital music in any way. As long as we have a choice with no strings attached, it's all good!


----------



## MLGrado

iFi audio said:


> Personally I digest everything at DSD1024, in a way it's addictive. But then again, I understand why some folks won't alter their digital music in any way. As long as we have a choice with no strings attached, it's all good!



Your FPGA processing and the simple fact that in a very_* 'unsimple in a GOOD WAY*_*'* implementation-----*- it all just WORKS.  Nothing offensive happens.* 

I am not going to pretend it is perfect and there is not an occasional click here and there that is FAR below any SPL to even being to worry. Quite frankly, at this point, iFi has taken so may precautions in this area, it is likely the software we are running out servers with that are a major culprit.  It is so quiet, its more like, 'Did I hear that or just imagine it?"  That in itself is a LONG way from the state of the IDSD Micro release way back in 2014, trust me!  It also sounds amazing,, but speaking again of how it is done, I am purchasing the HQPlayer made my Jussi over at Signalyst to integrate with Roon just to *COMPARE and EXPERIMENT.*   At least then I will have full control (hopefully) over the FIR filter (or even other types) that slowly roll off the 1 bit DSD Square Wave into really a partially converted multi-bit (still oversampled at same rate perhaps with 'dummy' clock samples inserted to allow increased oversampling all the way from 2.8 megahertz all the way to 44.8 megahertz DSD1024)

I have found myself firmly encamped in the 'format wars'.  Wisdom hath pushed me into a moderate with a foot in each side.  Although I DO thing this.  

If we can't have old fashioned PCM ADC and DAC, like the Pacific Microsonics of old, that use precision ladder DAC for both conversion to digital and back to analog, we need to be STRAIGHTFORWARD with consumers about what converters are REALLY doing.  'NATIVE DSD' vs 'NATIVE PCM'... blah...

*In the modern world DSP is the three letter acronym of choice, NOT DSD. 


Find me a true 1 bit DSD converter.  Due to analog science beyond my ability simply filtering with an analog filter passing such as the I2S 1 bit switched square wave cannot really be done.  It would be noise, noise, noise city!  So the closest thing to a REAL true NATIVE DSD converter is done in the EVERY iFi DSD product, and some other competitors.  Like T+A, RME but ONLY when bypassing and using DSD native mode, Jussi's open source DAC does the exact same thing.  ( I saw where ACCUPHASE is doing something with NON native conversion ESS chipset that if the data sheet is to be believed, is off the charts crazy!  Or maybe in the end its pure crazy genius. BUT I DIGRESS)*

The BEST REAL DSD conversion is the FIR moving average filter will all binary code as thermometer of unary code.  Throw out 2's complement PCM completely.  In the case of the Burr Brown chipset like the iFi.  the single DSD on/off stream is streamed 8 times together simultaneously, but OFFSET by a certain timeing amount, say 1 clock interval. The 8 switches trigger a certain voltage that when summed  equal the final DSD analog singal as filtered!!!  That is it!!  Voila!  And its all still unary coded, which means NO linearity errors like an R2R ladder DAC since each of the 8 streams is of equal importance, it MATTERS NOT which switch (or set of switches for uneven coding to further shape filter cuttoff and slope as need be) it goes to!!!!   

That CANNOT BE DONE in 2'c complement PCM.  Unfortuately at this time, though, 2's complement PCM, low number of bits with noise shaping just like Delta Sigma, but still requiring exponentional conversion in the END of all things for the sake of conversation, chipsize, power requirements heat etc... 

All the same, like I said, I have become a MODERATE.  I LOVE Pyramix and how their pro stuff works.  I understand a DAC only form of HORUS may be on themarket for the rest of us????

If unary coded multi bit delta signal can't legit be done, use all our PC power these days, leave bitstream and DSD for the pro studios, and give the rest of us 24 bit 1.4mhz 2'z complement PCM, which is the EXACT format Pyramix uses to edit it's DSD256 mixes that need more than a little splicing here and there. 


Okay, sorry, rant over.... just had to get it out of me system.   

Off to work.  I forget that this is how I make a buck or two.. professional classical pianist with piece of paper stuffed somewhere that gives me credentials  hahaha


----------



## iFi audio

MLGrado said:


> Okay, sorry, rant over.... just had to get it out of me system.



All good, I'll take it 



MLGrado said:


> professional classical pianist



OK so you clearly have to know a thing or two about at least one real instrument then


----------



## Taos

iFi audio said:


> That's because we'd need to have a new firmware with Tidal Connect functionality embedded. Currently we don't have that and our tech team is investigating how to do it.


How is it going with Tidal Connect implementation? I was in contact with iFi( I opened a ticket) and according to the one I talked to Tidal Connect wouldn't come to Pro iDSD. But reading what you have written here on this forum, it doesn't seem impossible.


----------



## iFi audio

Taos said:


> How is it going with Tidal Connect implementation? I was in contact with iFi( I opened a ticket) and according to the one I talked to Tidal Connect wouldn't come to Pro iDSD. But reading what you have written here on this forum, it doesn't seem impossible.



It's not impossible and we're investigating whether this can be done in case of Pro iDSD. But whether it will? Can't say at this point.


----------



## TooFrank

iFi audio said:


> It probably narrows down to your software settings. Can you let us know about this here: https://support.ifi-audio.com
> 
> Thanks!


Did so, got the answer that the pro idsd is not for watching videos via airplay. So nothing to do about the time lag. The advise was to use for example ifi zen blue instead. I guess it can be plugged in the pro. However, this may be in the future, as of now the music is more important and the WiFi works for that, despite the time lag....
happy holidays


----------



## iFi audio

TooFrank said:


> The advise was to use for example ifi zen blue instead. I guess it can be plugged in the pro. However, this may be in the future, as of now the music is more important and the WiFi works for that, despite the time lag....
> happy holidays



Understood and yes, ZEN Blue can work as a wireless receiver for Pro iDSD. Happy holidays to you too


----------



## mccarvindh

Hi Everyone! I am new here - so please forgive this basic connection question (it is probably covered elsewhere in this thread).  I have been lurking and learning quite a bit from this wonderful community.  
Just got myself a iFi PRO DSD and iFi PRO iCAN.  I am able to connect my DAPs to the PRO iCAN using either RCA or balanced 3 pin XLR, however, I am having trouble doing that with the PRO iDSD.  I see that there is an option to connect wirelessly (which I was successfully able to do through my MAC computer).  However, I am having trouble connecting my DAPs to the iDSD.  I have a Fiio M15, Cayin N3 PRO and Pioneer XDP 300R.  I was hoping to run the music from a DAP to iDSD to iCAN.  Thank you in advance for any pointers.


----------



## iFi audio

mccarvindh said:


> However, I am having trouble connecting my DAPs to the iDSD. I have a Fiio M15, Cayin N3 PRO and Pioneer XDP 300R. I was hoping to run the music from a DAP to iDSD to iCAN.



I've never tried streaming to Pro iDSD wirelessly from a DAP, but perhaps our support staff has a tried way of doing this. You could ask them by opening a ticket at our support platform here: https://support.ifi-audio.com


----------



## REXNFX

iFi audio said:


> That's because we'd need to have a new firmware with Tidal Connect functionality embedded. Currently we don't have that and our tech team is investigating how to do it.


How do you currently play Tidal gapless?


----------



## TooFrank

Don’t know if you’ve seen this recent review?
https://www.google.dk/url?sa=t&rct=...=V1JVjvGs7Gg&usg=AOvVaw3rqQjsoCBVcnD0MlEhLAt3


----------



## iFi audio

TooFrank said:


> Don’t know if you’ve seen this recent review?
> https://www.google.dk/url?sa=t&rct=...=V1JVjvGs7Gg&usg=AOvVaw3rqQjsoCBVcnD0MlEhLAt3



Just did. Very nice work and he's got a very cool setup. These speakers though, right  ?


----------



## MikeyFresh (Oct 29, 2022)

.


----------



## REXNFX

iFi audio said:


> Just did. Very nice work and he's got a very cool setup. These speakers though, right  ?


I bet you're pleased he didn't mention your product doesn't do gapless streaming... AND THEREFORE IS FAULTY.


----------



## MikeyFresh (Oct 29, 2022)

.


----------



## iFi audio

REXNFX said:


> I bet you're pleased he didn't mention your product doesn't do gapless streaming... AND THEREFORE IS FAULTY.



Have you seen this?



And for Win users we have our Roon bridge that does gapless.



MikeyFresh said:


> What, a tiny little detail like gapless playback wasn't resolved?



See above. It partially was


----------



## MikeyFresh

iFi audio said:


> See above. It partially was


Except that your Master Quality Approximated promotional piece has nothing at all to do with gapless playback or lack thereof. That was disingenuous of you to try to attach some kind of gapless playback solution to the wonders of MQA, they have nothing to do with each other.

Also misleading is the absolutely jacked volume level of the first MQA track played in that video, the Tom Petty track, absurdly louder than the track previous to it, and that wasn't by chance, the old louder is better trick, but so comically obvious.

Yes, mconnect is an excellent app, very mature and functional. That too has exactly zero to do with anything MQA, unrelated except that you can use mconnect to stream Tidal. Lucky for me, being in the U.S. I can use mconnect to stream not Tidal at $20/month, but Qobuz at $14.99/month, a much better deal and it leaves out the Master Quality Adulterated aspect too. Win win.


----------



## REXNFX

MikeyFresh said:


> Except that your Master Quality Approximated promotional piece has nothing at all to do with gapless playback or lack thereof. That was disingenuous of you to try to attach some kind of gapless playback solution to the wonders of MQA, they have nothing to do with each other.
> 
> Also misleading is the absolutely jacked volume level of the first MQA track played in that video, the Tom Petty track, absurdly louder than the track previous to it, and that wasn't by chance, the old louder is better trick, but so comically obvious.
> 
> Yes, mconnect is an excellent app, very mature and functional. That too has exactly zero to do with anything MQA, unrelated except that you can use mconnect to stream Tidal. Lucky for me, being in the U.S. I can use mconnect to stream not Tidal at $20/month, but Qobuz at $14.99/month, a much better deal and it leaves out the Master Quality Adulterated aspect too. Win win.


Agree. Releasing FAULTY PRODUCTS that don't do gapless is hugely damaging to IFI's reputation and instead of apologizing they keep digging. WISE UP IFI, get it fixed!


----------



## iFi audio

MikeyFresh said:


> Except that your Master Quality Approximated promotional piece has nothing at all to do with gapless playback or lack thereof. That was disingenuous of you to try to attach some kind of gapless playback solution to the wonders of MQA, they have nothing to do with each other.
> 
> Also misleading is the absolutely jacked volume level of the first MQA track played in that video, the Tom Petty track, absurdly louder than the track previous to it, and that wasn't by chance, the old louder is better trick, but so comically obvious.
> 
> Yes, mconnect is an excellent app, very mature and functional. That too has exactly zero to do with anything MQA, unrelated except that you can use mconnect to stream Tidal. Lucky for me, being in the U.S. I can use mconnect to stream not Tidal at $20/month, but Qobuz at $14.99/month, a much better deal and it leaves out the Master Quality Adulterated aspect too. Win win.



mconnect was the important part, not MQA or Tidal  



REXNFX said:


> WISE UP IFI, get it fixed!



OK, your Caps Lock and tone had us all convinced and motivated now. We'll fix it


----------



## TooFrank

iFi audio said:


> Have you seen this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks, didn’t know mconnect. Seems to be much better than the Muzo...


----------



## iFi audio

TooFrank said:


> Seems to be much better than the Muzo...



Many people would agree


----------



## Sphere 57

I'm not really a fan of mconnect. On more than a few occasions one of their updates has introduced a serious bug, such as track advance or gapless not working. When I have reported these bugs, their response has always been to blame my network or streaming devices, that it can have nothing to do with the update which must have been a coincidence. Then later, by a _remarkable second coincidence_, the bug disappears with a new mconnect update.

I much prefer BubbleUPnP, it is a much more versatile app, when I have had an issue the developer was genuinely keen to sort it out. The graphics aren't as slick as mconnect however, which does not bother me. The only thing that I prefer about mconnect is that it is a bit easier to browse Tidal/Qobuz' catalogue and recommendations. Bubble is Android only though.


----------



## TooFrank (Jan 13, 2021)

Sphere 57 said:


> I'm not really a fan of mconnect. On more than a few occasions one of their updates has introduced a serious bug, such as track advance or gapless not working. When I have reported these bugs, their response has always been to blame my network or streaming devices, that it can have nothing to do with the update which must have been a coincidence. Then later, by a _remarkable second coincidence_, the bug disappears with a new mconnect update.
> 
> I much prefer BubbleUPnP, it is a much more versatile app, when I have had an issue the developer was genuinely keen to sort it out. The graphics aren't as slick as mconnect however, which does not bother me. The only thing that I prefer about mconnect is that it is a bit easier to browse Tidal/Qobuz' catalogue and recommendations. Bubble is Android only though.


Thanks. Will have a look
edit: is it for iOS? Doesn’t seem to be in the app store?


----------



## iFi audio (Jan 13, 2021)

Sphere 57 said:


> a _remarkable second coincidence_, the bug disappears with a new mconnect update.



Now that's a borderline miracle right there


----------



## TooFrank

Does anybody have experience with pro idsd and micro sd cards? SQ? In the manual, it says up to 128 Gb is supported. Any experience with cards bigger than 128?


----------



## iFi audio

TooFrank said:


> Does anybody have experience with pro idsd and micro sd cards? SQ? In the manual, it says up to 128 Gb is supported. Any experience with cards bigger than 128?



128 GB is the limit if I recall correctly.


----------



## MikeyFresh (Oct 29, 2022)

.


----------



## h1f1add1cted (Jan 17, 2021)

Yeah reminds my of my old Sansa SandDisk Plus player ages ago released, which offical supported 32 GB SD cards, but works until today perfect with 512 GB SD cards, only the correct formatted FAT32 was required to able to work and read larger SD cards properly.


----------



## iFi audio (Jan 17, 2021)

MikeyFresh said:


> But that makes no sense at all, the SDXC spec is exactly the same for cards as small as 64GB, or as large as the (yet to be released) 2TB capacity. So the only plausible reason why an arbitrary cut-off of 128GB would exist is if



I'll double-check this, I might be wrong about that 128 GB cap. I'll ask internally. 



MikeyFresh said:


> iFi specifically chose to choke it off at that point via firmware for some unknown reason.



I see no reason why we would do this. There's always some logical explanation


----------



## TooFrank

Just for the record: on my pro idsd, I cannot stream tidal gapless via mconnect....
very annoying indeed...


----------



## Sphere 57

TooFrank said:


> Just for the record: on my pro idsd, I cannot stream tidal gapless via mconnect....
> very annoying indeed...


I haven't bothered with the Pro iDSD's onboard streamer since shortly after buying it. I've tried pairing it with a few different streamers. Even the cheapest of them (Yamaha WXC-50) provided a vastly improved user experience (but needed third party software such as mconnect for gapless). Expensive streaming transports like Auralic's Aries G1 improve sound quality as well.


----------



## TooFrank

Sphere 57 said:


> I haven't bothered with the Pro iDSD's onboard streamer since shortly after buying it. I've tried pairing it with a few different streamers. Even the cheapest of them (Yamaha WXC-50) provided a vastly improved user experience (but needed third party software such as mconnect for gapless). Expensive streaming transports like Auralic's Aries G1 improve sound quality as well.


Thanks, fortunately streaming is not essential to me. Otherwise, with usb the sound is terrific....


----------



## iFi audio

Sphere 57 said:


> Expensive streaming transports like Auralic's Aries G1 improve sound quality as well.



I agree. At our office we had SOtM sMS-200ultra and it was great!


----------



## TooFrank

iFi audio said:


> I'll double-check this, I might be wrong about that 128 GB cap. I'll ask internally.
> 
> 
> 
> I see no reason why we would do this. There's always some logical explanation


this is from ifi home page. If you look closely, the sd card is 400 gb


----------



## iFi audio

TooFrank said:


> this is from ifi home page. If you look closely, the sd card is 400 gb



It is indeed, tomorrow I should know more


----------



## iFi audio

MikeyFresh said:


> But that makes no sense at all, the SDXC spec is exactly the same for cards as small as 64GB, or as large as the (yet to be released) 2TB capacity. So the only plausible reason why an arbitrary cut-off of 128GB would exist is if iFi specifically chose to choke it off at that point via firmware for some unknown reason.



Just to clarify, SDXC cards on Pro iDSD should be formatted to FAT32 and that's the only limiting factor. But from what I can tell, one can format a SDXC card to FAT32 and go beyond 32GB.


----------



## MikeyFresh

iFi audio said:


> Just to clarify, SDXC cards on Pro iDSD should be formatted to FAT32 and that's the only limiting factor. But from what I can tell, one can format a SDXC card to FAT32 and go beyond 32GB.


The first part is clear, and I take that to mean no arbitrary limit was imposed via firmware, the only requirement is FAT32 formatting. That is an important distinction because FAT32 places a 4GB limitation on the size of any particular _folder_.

The second part is not clear, but I'll go ahead and clarify it for you, the SDXC spec starts at cards 64GB in size, so your example is invalid as 32GB cards are not SDXC (extended capacity), they are SDHC (high capacity). What you really should be saying is microSD cards need to be formatted FAT32, you can leave off the HC or XC distinction, and also note that most cards do ship FAT32 from the factory and thus require no reformatting at all.


----------



## TooFrank

MikeyFresh said:


> The first part is clear, and I take that to mean no arbitrary limit was imposed via firmware, the only requirement is FAT32 formatting. That is an important distinction because FAT32 places a 4GB limitation on the size of any particular _folder_.
> 
> The second part is not clear, but I'll go ahead and clarify it for you, the SDXC spec starts at cards 64GB in size, so your example is invalid as 32GB cards are not SDXC (extended capacity), they are SDHC (high capacity). What you really should be saying is microSD cards need to be formatted FAT32, you can leave off the HC or XC distinction, and also note that most cards do ship FAT32 from the factory and thus require no reformatting at all.


Thanks, would that mean that for example microSD on 1TB could be used too?


----------



## MikeyFresh

TooFrank said:


> Thanks, would that mean that for example microSD on 1TB could be used too?


Yes it should mean that, according to what iFi is saying, the only requirement is FAT32 formatting (which should be standard out of the package) and size (capacity) does not matter. 

The microSD spec itself allows for the eventual maximum storage capacity of 2TB, but for now the largest capacity card yet released is 1TB, and iFi is saying they have not restricted the use of any such card via firmware.


----------



## TooFrank

MikeyFresh said:


> Yes it should mean that, according to what iFi is saying, the only requirement is FAT32 formatting (which should be standard out of the package) and size (capacity) does not matter.
> 
> The microSD spec itself allows for the eventual maximum storage capacity of 2TB, but for now the largest capacity card yet released is 1TB, and iFi is saying they have not restricted the use of any such card via firmware.


Thanks a lot, will have to find out how good mconnect is for controlling such a card


----------



## iFi audio

MikeyFresh said:


> The microSD spec itself allows for the eventual maximum storage capacity of 2TB, but for now the largest capacity card yet released is 1TB, and iFi is saying they have not restricted the use of any such card via firmware.



That's affirmative, we didn't. 



MikeyFresh said:


> Yes it should mean that, according to what iFi is saying, the only requirement is FAT32 formatting



The only info I got internally was about FAT32 as the only requirement and that's it


----------



## TooFrank

iFi audio said:


> That's affirmative, we didn't.
> 
> 
> 
> The only info I got internally was about FAT32 as the only requirement and that's it


So stupid me - maybe: What does it take to play via an microSD card? Have a 128 GB, I've formatted it as FAT32 and transferred music.  The pro did is connected to my wifi and the idsd shows up on either muzo or connect. And I can stream from tidal etc. However, I expected to be able to see (and play) the microSD, but I cannot...What have I done wrong? All help appreciated - thanks


----------



## iFi audio

TooFrank said:


> However, I expected to be able to see (and play) the microSD, but I cannot...What have I done wrong?



Just to be clear, neither Muzo nor mconnect list your microSD storage, right?


----------



## Hoegaardener70

iFi audio said:


> J



Is all ok with you guys? In the past, ifi was superfast with support tickets. But this time, it took 6 days to reply with a follow-up question, and since 3 days again no response. 

You might also want to have a look at the iESL thread, there also so many open questions. By thw way, brand new iESL owner here. But overall, I love the interaction here with ifi, it is very helpful.


----------



## iFi audio

Hoegaardener70 said:


> Is all ok with you guys? In the past, ifi was superfast with support tickets. But this time, it took 6 days to reply with a follow-up question, and since 3 days again no response.



Good to know, thanks. If there are any issues, you might send me your ticket number so I can check its progress.



Hoegaardener70 said:


> You might also want to have a look at the iESL thread, there also so many open questions



Thanks, will do   



Hoegaardener70 said:


> By thw way, brand new iESL owner here. But overall, I love the interaction here with ifi, it is very helpful.



I'm happy to read this, enjoy


----------



## Richard Wray

Hi all,

IFI are clearly on a charge with a host of updated and great new products (Neo, Diablo, Zen etc).

Is it safe to buy the Pro at the moment or are we expecting something new soon?


----------



## chaz_flhr

Yes a pro dac without headphone amp would be nice but keep the tube option for pre amp.
‘for those of us who have the pro Ican


----------



## Hoegaardener70 (Mar 6, 2021)

Richard Wray said:


> Hi all,
> 
> IFI are clearly on a charge with a host of updated and great new products (Neo, Diablo, Zen etc).
> 
> Is it safe to buy the Pro at the moment or are we expecting something new soon?



I think it is safe to buy if you primarily use the DAC, filter and amp functions - highly recommended.
For streaming, however .... I could see something new coming up.


----------



## hsimsh10

Hoegaardener70 said:


> I think it is safe to buy if you primarily use the DAC, filter and amp functions - highly recommended.
> For streaming, however .... I could see something new coming up.


Yes, I  agree.
I  use   now  Roon on my desktop plus  Sotm SMS-200 for streaming . Streaming directly with  the PRO DAC  using Muzo   or Mconnect applications is inconvenient.
It is a pity that Pro DAC  is not Roon   certified device ( Roon end point).


----------



## iFi audio

Richard Wray said:


> Hi all,
> 
> IFI are clearly on a charge with a host of updated and great new products (Neo, Diablo, Zen etc).
> 
> Is it safe to buy the Pro at the moment or are we expecting something new soon?



I would say it is safe as Pro iDSD is our TOTL DAC and that won't change anytime soon


----------



## TooFrank

iFi audio said:


> I would say it is safe as Pro iDSD is our TOTL DAC and that won't change anytime soon


while I am a big fan, streaming could be much better....


----------



## iFi audio

TooFrank said:


> while I am a big fan, streaming could be much better....



I hear you   Whenever (and if) Pro iDSD's successorafloats, we'll make sure it has this base fully covered!


----------



## chaz_flhr

iFi audio said:


> I hear you   Whenever (and if) Pro iDSD's successorafloats, we'll make sure it has this base fully covered!


alrighty then take my money


----------



## iFi audio

chaz_flhr said:


> alrighty then take my money



In due time we gladly will


----------



## TooFrank

Probably a very silly question: does the gadget you connect with the pro idsd impact the sound quality? That for example BT, iMac with USB, iphone with photo adaptor (lightning) etc. I mean if the input is digital, then the pro idsd will take care of the rest?


----------



## TooFrank

Other question: when I switch modes (e.g. filter or gain) whilst the headphones are plugged in, the left channel seems to lag behind the right in terms of sound. As if it takes a couple of seconds before left and right are playing at equal volume levels. Does any of you have experienced this?


----------



## iFi audio

TooFrank said:


> Probably a very silly question: does the gadget you connect with the pro idsd impact the sound quality? That for example BT, iMac with USB, iphone with photo adaptor (lightning) etc. I mean if the input is digital, then the pro idsd will take care of the rest?



It will, but Pro iDSD just as any other DAC is also affected by a product before it. That's why you'd hear a difference between i.e. a laptop and expensive audiophile streamer.



TooFrank said:


> Other question: when I switch modes (e.g. filter or gain) whilst the headphones are plugged in, the left channel seems to lag behind the right in terms of sound. As if it takes a couple of seconds before left and right are playing at equal volume levels. Does any of you have experienced this?



Can you please tell me in what way one channel is lagging? Is it about volume level or something else?


----------



## TooFrank

iFi audio said:


> It will, but Pro iDSD just as any other DAC is also affected by a product before it. That's why you'd hear a difference between i.e. a laptop and expensive audiophile streamer.
> 
> 
> 
> Can you please tell me in what way one channel is lagging? Is it about volume level or something else?


It seems as if it is just a delay, I.e when I switch, immediately thereafter the sound is in the right, but waiting - maybe a 0.5-1 minute, the sound in the left comes back....


----------



## TooFrank

iFi audio said:


> It will, but Pro iDSD just as any other DAC is also affected by a product before it. That's why you'd hear a difference between i.e. a laptop and expensive audiophile streamer.


so digital is not digital?


----------



## TooFrank

So I can expect a difference in sound if whether my pro idsd is connected to a NUC running Roon or my iMac running Roon? (same cables of course) Thanks..


----------



## iFi audio

TooFrank said:


> It seems as if it is just a delay, I.e when I switch, immediately thereafter the sound is in the right, but waiting - maybe a 0.5-1 minute, the sound in the left comes back....



OK, this much delay shouldn't occur. Can you please let our support team know about this? https://support.ifi-audio.com



TooFrank said:


> So I can expect a difference in sound if whether my pro idsd is connected to a NUC running Roon or my iMac running Roon? (same cables of course) Thanks..



I can't say whether in your case you'd hear any changes, but you might. After all, DACs have to work on data they receive. Although Pro iDSD's USB input is quite impervious to incoming noise, the difference in sound quality between i.e. a laptop with Foobar2000 on it and say SOtM sMS-200ultra is very celar.


----------



## TooFrank

iFi audio said:


> OK, this much delay shouldn't occur. Can you please let our support team know about this? https://support.ifi-audio.com
> 
> 
> 
> I can't say whether in your case you'd hear any changes, but you might. After all, DACs have to work on data they receive. Although Pro iDSD's USB input is quite impervious to incoming noise, the difference in sound quality between i.e. a laptop with Foobar2000 on it and say SOtM sMS-200ultra is very celar.


Thanks a lot. Been reading a bit more on this. May consider such a device


----------



## Hoegaardener70

iFi audio said:


> OK, this much delay shouldn't occur. Can you please let our support team know about this? https://support.ifi-audio.com
> 
> 
> 
> I can't say whether in your case you'd hear any changes, but you might. After all, DACs have to work on data they receive. Although Pro iDSD's USB input is quite impervious to incoming noise, the difference in sound quality between i.e. a laptop with Foobar2000 on it and say SOtM sMS-200ultra is very celar.


Hi , could you please specify: Why would the digital sound from a laptop be less clear or in any ways inferior than the one coming from a dedicated computer based media player (or any other sort of network switching device)? If there is a problem, there would be distortion, if not the signal is as pure as it can be, no? Thanks


----------



## iFi audio

Hoegaardener70 said:


> If there is a problem, there would be distortion, if not the signal is as pure as it can be, no?


In theory that's how it should work. In practice however, computers, laptops etc. do many things at once, weren't designed for audio playback in the first place, their circuits are noisy and that's what impacts digital data they send out. That's the reason why i.e. devices that clean USB signal prior to it entering a DAC work. Our iPurifiers would be a good example. That's also why a regular computer used for pretty much everything won't sound as good as a costly audiophile streamer optimized just for audio.

To summarize, noise is the problem and digital data isn't immune to it.


----------



## iFi audio

TooFrank said:


> Thanks a lot. Been reading a bit more on this. May consider such a device



Sure, anytime. If you listen to music from i.e. a laptop and would like to upgrade your setup without changing audio components you already have, I'd consider either a streamer, or a USB cleaner that would tidy up digital data before it gets into your DAC.


----------



## TooFrank

iFi audio said:


> Sure, anytime. If you listen to music from i.e. a laptop and would like to upgrade your setup without changing audio components you already have, I'd consider either a streamer, or a USB cleaner that would tidy up digital data before it gets into your DAC.


FWIW: I have ordered the SOtM sMS 200ultra, so I can test. With that price tag, I hope, that I will return it shortly


----------



## iFi audio

TooFrank said:


> FWIW: I have ordered the SOtM sMS 200ultra, so I can test. With that price tag, I hope, that I will return it shortly



You might be very surprised what it can do versus say a laptop. But not to jump to conclusions, once you have it plese let us know how it worked for you


----------



## hsimsh10

I have Sotm SMS20Ultra plus TX-USBUltra connected to my IFI PRO IDSD. I use Roon.
SQ was significantly improved  compared  to previous direct USB connection between my Laptop and the DAC.


----------



## TooFrank

hsimsh10 said:


> I have Sotm SMS20Ultra plus TX-USBUltra connected to my IFI PRO IDSD. I use Roon.
> SQ was significantly improved  compared  to previous direct USB connection between my Laptop and the DAC.


Thanks for chipping in. I am really anxious to try. It should arrive tomorrow.😜
(I was skeptical when buying the signum+ cable for my Stellia’s, but was pleasantly surprised over the improvement compared with the stock).


----------



## MLGrado (Mar 19, 2021)

For those who were asking about all the new products coming from iFi and things around the corner for the pro, I say don't worry about it and keep the Pro or go ahead and buy a new one if you are in market, keep it at the 2.08 firmware unless some kind of major bug is fixed in a later release.  On 2.08  the software has caught up to the hardware and the unit functions as the designer intended.  (Early on these issues were caught in measurements of review samples for instance the reversed Hi-fi/Pro output setting.  Also I have been told the devices under the old firmwares did not conform to the specs aimed for in the design and in the lab.  Like in Hi-News when Paul Miller could not get near the voltage drive out of the headphone amp as per spec.  Again I was told this is due to the firmware problems, bugs and glitches that were un-caught before release and sending review samples.  Source for the info would know, but take it for what you think it is worth)

I continue to be amazed by this device and all it can do and how it can be made to sound so differently.  It can be a beast, though with so many configurations to actually get the truly spectacular sound it is capable of.   Combine all that with the usual issues of component and headphone matching, and well, be prepared to spend many hours getting the sound you want.  Perhaps. Or you may find it just perfect the first settings you try YMMV.

Also amazing it how it does all this relatively glitch free without any hiccups switching stages or software formats.  Never have any objectionable noises, pops or clicks.  Transitions are smooth and fast.  The only thing I can think of is there may be an issue in some peoples setups with MQA clipping off the very beginning of a track for just an instant.  There can be several culprits from MQA itself, to Tidal or the playback software used, or iFi's choice of implementation.


*I DO HAVE a MAJOR problem I have experienced lately* and it is very unsettling and though it was bricking my whole DAC.  I have narrowed it down to the tubes.  In solid stage mode, it never happens.  In either tube mode, turning up the volume control during silence can lead to this awful crackling 'frying' I shudder to say sound that can cause the whole unit to shut down on its own.  At any normal listening level, there is no issue whatsoever, but it is a major issue that is probably my tubes.  I have NOS Western Electric that sound amazing, but they may be failing.  I have a supply of brand new GE 5670 that could last decades.  But I really love the sound of the WE tubes and getting another pair is SO expensive.  I also have a pair of NOS RCA 5670 from the 1960's I will give a try.  I just don't want to open her up and start the rolling process as any roller can verify it becomes an obsession once its starts haha.  But I need to do this to verify the tubes are the cause, however likely my educated guess may be.


----------



## chaz_flhr

TooFrank said:


> Thanks for chipping in. I am really anxious to try. It should arrive tomorrow.😜
> (I was skeptical when buying the signum+ cable for my Stellia’s, but was pleasantly surprised over the improvement compared with the stock).


how well does the Pro idsd drive the Arya, I’m sure it has no problem driving the Stellia.


----------



## iFi audio

TooFrank said:


> Thanks for chipping in. I am really anxious to try. It should arrive tomorrow.😜



After all that talk we had now I'm axious as well 



MLGrado said:


> For those who were asking about all the new products coming from iFi and things around the corner for the pro, I say don't worry about it and keep the Pro or go ahead and buy a new one if you are in market, keep it at the 2.08 firmware unless some kind of major bug is fixed in a later release.  On 2.08  the software has caught up to the hardware and the unit functions as the designer intended.  (Early on these issues were caught in measurements of review samples for instance the reversed Hi-fi/Pro output setting.  Also I have been told the devices under the old firmwares did not conform to the specs aimed for in the design and in the lab.  Like in Hi-News when Paul Miller could not get near the voltage drive out of the headphone amp as per spec.  Again I was told this is due to the firmware problems, bugs and glitches that were un-caught before release and sending review samples.  Source for the info would know, but take it for what you think it is worth)
> 
> I continue to be amazed by this device and all it can do and how it can be made to sound so differently.  It can be a beast, though with so many configurations to actually get the truly spectacular sound it is capable of.   Combine all that with the usual issues of component and headphone matching, and well, be prepared to spend many hours getting the sound you want.  Perhaps. Or you may find it just perfect the first settings you try YMMV.
> 
> ...



Thanks for your input   

As for tube stage off, tubes might be dying. Which ones you got? WE6922?


----------



## TooFrank

chaz_flhr said:


> how well does the Pro idsd drive the Arya, I’m sure it has no problem driving the Stellia.


And - to my ears - it does very well with the Arya’s too...


----------



## Ross Kyle

Anyone interested in cheaper streamers , a raspberry pi is a stark upgrade , i run pi2aes hat too which measures better than some 1k plus DDCs in terms of jitter / and electrical noise , i use the normal pi board usb for hq player , and run the HAT for anything else if i can’t use HQ player , also ifi what’s with the DSD 512 issue going into the IDSD more with HQ player came around time MQA update came wish i’d never flashed that in lol


----------



## TooFrank

TooFrank said:


> Thanks for chipping in. I am really anxious to try. It should arrive tomorrow.😜
> (I was skeptical when buying the signum+ cable for my Stellia’s, but was pleasantly surprised over the improvement compared with the stock).


FWIW, confession time: Been listening to the SOtM sMS-200ultra this Sunday. It is connected with a wireworld usb cable to the pro idsd. Playing Roon. Switching to and fro from my iPad with digital out to same cable to the pro. Headphones (only): Stellia, Arya and a couple of Grados. Have to admit that the SOtM - to my ears - sounds much better, no matter what I have thrown at it.  In short, more detail, deeper layering (3D), more crisp etc. Probably will have to keep it....potentially yet another loss for the wallet


----------



## Ross Kyle

TooFrank said:


> FWIW, confession time: Been listening to the SOtM sMS-200ultra this Sunday. It is connected with a wireworld usb cable to the pro idsd. Playing Roon. Switching to and fro from my iPad with digital out to same cable to the pro. Headphones (only): Stellia, Arya and a couple of Grados. Have to admit that the SOtM - to my ears - sounds much better, no matter what I have thrown at it.  In short, more detail, deeper layering (3D), more crisp etc. Probably will have to keep it....potentially yet another loss for the wallet


I know a few folk with the SMS 200 neos special editions that love them , feeding the IDSD with cleaner digital will help just the sheer jitter drop alone do you have the power supply from SotM too ?


----------



## chaz_flhr

TooFrank said:


> FWIW, confession time: Been listening to the SOtM sMS-200ultra this Sunday. It is connected with a wireworld usb cable to the pro idsd. Playing Roon. Switching to and fro from my iPad with digital out to same cable to the pro. Headphones (only): Stellia, Arya and a couple of Grados. Have to admit that the SOtM - to my ears - sounds much better, no matter what I have thrown at it.  In short, more detail, deeper layering (3D), more crisp etc. Probably will have to keep it....potentially yet another loss for the wallet


Headfi‘s never easy on the wallet.


----------



## Sphere 57

TooFrank said:


> so digital is not digital?


There's digital and there's digital


----------



## iFi audio

Sphere 57 said:


> There's digital and there's digital



This is so very true.



chaz_flhr said:


> Headfi‘s never easy on the wallet.



Although I agree and there are more affordable hobbies out there, now affordable stuff sounds far better than say a decade ago and that's a big plus for newcomers.


----------



## TooFrank

Ross Kyle said:


> I know a few folk with the SMS 200 neos special editions that love them , feeding the IDSD with cleaner digital will help just the sheer jitter drop alone do you have the power supply from SotM too ?


Got a good deal on the sPS-500 power Supply, should arrive within this week. Was told that it will add even more to the SQ, and as I am already way to deep in this hole, I thought what the heck....


----------



## iFi audio

TooFrank said:


> Got a good deal on the sPS-500 power Supply, should arrive within this week. Was told that it will add even more to the SQ, and as I am already way to deep in this hole, I thought what the heck....



Power supplies for digital components are more than meaningful, so I think that you should be pleasantly surprised!


----------



## Ross Kyle

Will there ever be an option to opt out on the ability to unfold MQA as I really dont care for it and despise the buisness model ie some sort of roleback since MQA firmware screwed with native 512 DSD in some applications


----------



## iFi audio

Ross Kyle said:


> Will there ever be an option to opt out on the ability to unfold MQA as I really dont care for it and despise the buisness model ie some sort of roleback since MQA firmware screwed with native 512 DSD in some applications



I'm not sure what you mean 

MQA is a choice just as is hi-res PCM and DSD. Having said that, I roll with things that I like, and I don't use those that I don't


----------



## Ross Kyle

iFi audio said:


> I'm not sure what you mean
> 
> MQA is a choice just as is hi-res PCM and DSD. Having said that, I roll with things that I like, and I don't use those that I don't


I’ll rephrase , anytime i stream from a service because it has the mqa unfold it does regardless of my choice or not , when you implemented it that firmware broke certain uses of DSD 512 especially those up sampled out with the DAC , my point about MQA is of my opinion and a little controversial to some but it’s not actually beneficial in anyway  just see it as a cash grab by Meridian it’s more the being forced aspect than anything


----------



## iFi audio

Ross Kyle said:


> I’ll rephrase , anytime i stream from a service because it has the mqa unfold it does regardless of my choice or not , when you implemented it that firmware broke certain uses of DSD 512 especially those up sampled out with the DAC , my point about MQA is of my opinion and a little controversial to some but it’s not actually beneficial in anyway  just see it as a cash grab by Meridian it’s more the being forced aspect than anything



I hear you, but I'd like to know more about what MQA did to DSD512 in our Pro iDSD (I assume that this is what you have?). Can you please send me a PM with specific cases?


----------



## Hoegaardener70

Hi there, I have an interesting issue with the ifi ican pro (which is connected to the iDSD and iESL). I used this fantastic website with "headphone test sounds" to check how my Voce fares: https://www.audiocheck.net/soundtests_headphones.php 

When I do the wiring (twisted) test, the iCan audibly clicks, the status light goes red and keeps restarting until I stop playing the file. In my case, this only happens while the iESL is one. With a balanced dynamic headphone connected running the test, all is normal. 

Anyway, check out the tests, they are interesting.


----------



## iFi audio

Hoegaardener70 said:


> Hi there, I have an interesting issue with the ifi ican pro (which is connected to the iDSD and iESL). I used this fantastic website with "headphone test sounds" to check how my Voce fares: https://www.audiocheck.net/soundtests_headphones.php
> 
> When I do the wiring (twisted) test, the iCan audibly clicks, the status light goes red and keeps restarting until I stop playing the file. In my case, this only happens while the iESL is one. With a balanced dynamic headphone connected running the test, all is normal.
> 
> Anyway, check out the tests, they are interesting.



It's interesting. I just did that test on my speakers and everything worked out fine, but I'd like to ask you about more details; how is your setup wired, which cable goes where, what options are toggled etc. If Pro iCAN makes clicky sound, those are relays switching and they shouldn't.


----------



## Hoegaardener70

iFi audio said:


> It's interesting. I just did that test on my speakers and everything worked out fine, but I'd like to ask you about more details; how is your setup wired, which cable goes where, what options are toggled etc. If Pro iCAN makes clicky sound, those are relays switching and they shouldn't.


The signal goes via usb cable to the iDSD. From there to the iCan, it is connected balanced via the two 3pinXLR interconnects into the iCan. iCan and iESL are connected via the HDMI cable ...  so a rather standard wired setup. Options- probably the ones I always use - iDSD: Filter GTO, medium gain, iCan: High gain, Xbass 10Hz, , iESL : AC Termination Pro, with the electrostat settings on pro with highest impediance.


----------



## Sphere 57

Ross Kyle said:


> I’ll rephrase , anytime i stream from a service because it has the mqa unfold it does regardless of my choice or not , when you implemented it that firmware broke certain uses of DSD 512 especially those up sampled out with the DAC , my point about MQA is of my opinion and a little controversial to some but it’s not actually beneficial in anyway  just see it as a cash grab by Meridian it’s more the being forced aspect than anything


Sorry, but I still don't understand what your point is.

The only streaming service that has gone with the MQA format is Tidal. If you don't want anything to do with MQA, why don't you just just use a different service? (Qobuz is £5 a month cheaper) Pro iDSD will only do MQA unfolding if a file carries a MQA flag.

Are you saying that you want to listen to MQA encoded material without MQA unfolding? If so why, and have you heard this? I have, I find that 24 bit MQA sounds worse than non MQA 16 bit flac unless you use MQA playback.


----------



## iFi audio

Hoegaardener70 said:


> The signal goes via usb cable to the iDSD. From there to the iCan, it is connected balanced via the two 3pinXLR interconnects into the iCan. iCan and iESL are connected via the HDMI cable ... so a rather standard wired setup. Options- probably the ones I always use - iDSD: Filter GTO, medium gain, iCan: High gain, Xbass 10Hz, , iESL : AC Termination Pro, with the electrostat settings on pro with highest impediance.



And how are all these products powered?



Sphere 57 said:


> Sorry, but I still don't understand what your point is.



It's not about MQA itself, but rather how it might affect Pro iDSD's firmware and interact with DSD512 playback.


----------



## Ross Kyle (Mar 31, 2021)

Sphere 57 said:


> Sorry, but I still don't understand what your point is.
> 
> The only streaming service that has gone with the MQA format is Tidal. If you don't want anything to do with MQA, why don't you just just use a different service? (Qobuz is £5 a month cheaper) Pro iDSD will only do MQA unfolding if a file carries a MQA flag.
> 
> Are you saying that you want to listen to MQA encoded material without MQA unfolding? If so why, and have you heard this? I have, I find that 24 bit MQA sounds worse than non MQA 16 bit flac unless you use MQA playback.


my point is that i shouldn’t have to have MQA forced but that’s more a tidal issue tbh since they changed it where hifi still gives you the mqa “master” lol if you can call it that, tbh mqa sounds worse no matter what and just gets worse when you pull up graphs regardless I use tidal and qobuz since there is gaps in libraries , overall my problem was how the mqa firmware screwed with DSD512 coming from software like HQ Player when i went to externally up sample using more powerful filters on pc


----------



## iFi audio

Ross Kyle said:


> my problem was how the mqa firmware screwed with DSD512 coming from software like HQ Player when i went to externally up sample using more powerful filters on pc



That's what I'm trying to find out now with our R&D.


----------



## Ross Kyle

iFi audio said:


> That's what I'm trying to find out now with our R&D.


i know was just replying to them lol


----------



## iFi audio

Ross Kyle said:


> i know was just replying to them lol



Brilliant, they'll investigate and get back to us both. All good!


----------



## Hoegaardener70

iFi audio said:


> And how are all these products powered?


One ifi power adapter plugged into the wall which goes  to the iDSD --> then via the connector power cable to iCan --> HDMI to iESL. I checked in the ifi documentation about power requirements for the chain but I could not find anything, so I assumed it is ok.


----------



## iFi audio

Hoegaardener70 said:


> One ifi power adapter plugged into the wall which goes to the iDSD --> then via the connector power cable to iCan --> HDMI to iESL. I checked in the ifi documentation about power requirements for the chain but I could not find anything, so I assumed it is ok.



Can you please:  

1. check whether powering Pro iCAN from a separate charger changes anything? 
2. try replacing the charger only for Pro iDSD?

I remember that many months ago one our customer's Pro iCAN engaged its relays and red light just like yours, and it turned out that his charger was the reason.


----------



## Ross Kyle

iFi audio said:


> Can you please:
> 
> 1. check whether powering Pro iCAN from a separate charger changes anything?
> 2. try replacing the charger only for Pro iDSD?
> ...


might have been mine 😂 i sent mine in was turning off constantly just needed a new brick


----------



## iFi audio

Ross Kyle said:


> might have been mine 😂 i sent mine in was turning off constantly just needed a new brick



Can't recall, perhaps it was you indeed


----------



## chaz_flhr

Soon to be owner of a 4.4 mm Pro iDSD should be here next week.


----------



## chaz_flhr

iFi audio said:


> It will, but Pro iDSD just as any other DAC is also affected by a product before it. That's why you'd hear a difference between i.e. a laptop and expensive audiophile streamer.
> 
> 
> 
> Can you please tell me in what way one channel is lagging? Is it about volume level or something else?


‘wouldn’t the best option be directly wired with cat 5 or 6, memory card or ssd connected to iDSD since it is a high end streamer?


----------



## Ross Kyle

chaz_flhr said:


> ‘wouldn’t the best option be directly wired with cat 5 or 6, memory card or ssd connected to iDSD since it is a high end streamer?


the streamer is ok it’s more a secondary almost tertiary function , i run a pi as a streamer and it works super well


----------



## chaz_flhr

Ross Kyle said:


> the streamer is ok it’s more a secondary almost tertiary function , i run a pi as a streamer and it works super well


As a streamer would this be better or worse than streaming from a bluesound node 2i with MQA SQ wise?
I am hoping to move my node 2i to another location in the house.


----------



## Ross Kyle

chaz_flhr said:


> As a streamer would this be better or worse than streaming from a bluesound node 2i with MQA SQ wise?
> I am hoping to move my node 2i to another location in the house.


Slightly worse but if you use a HAT like pi2aes it can beat thousand dollar DDCs for jitter performance , as for MQA meh lol


----------



## Sound Eq

can i ask which filter u consider the smoothest


----------



## iFi audio

chaz_flhr said:


> ‘wouldn’t the best option be directly wired with cat 5 or 6, memory card or ssd connected to iDSD since it is a high end streamer?



It's worth trying out for sure and moving from there.


----------



## dcguy73

Sound Eq said:


> can i ask which filter u consider the smoothest


Definitely the "Apodising" filter. If a song is poorly recorded and too bright-sounding for me, my default is to switch to that setting.


----------



## chaz_flhr

iFi audio said:


> It's worth trying out for sure and moving from there.


So directly wired isn’t the best option?, my main goal is streaming Tidal hi-fi / masters and accessibility of my flac library on a 500gb Mirco sd card / ssd drive.
is the streaming end of this unit that poorly implemented or bad sounding?, doesn’t all incoming data through all inputs go through the same dac processes?, other than some inputs being bit-rate limited.
would I be better served feeding the iDSD from my node 2i optical or coax out for Tidal streaming?, or seeking a different option for my needs?


----------



## Ross Kyle

chaz_flhr said:


> So directly wired isn’t the best option?, my main goal is streaming Tidal hi-fi / masters and accessibility of my flac library on a 500gb Mirco sd card / ssd drive.
> is the streaming end of this unit that poorly implemented or bad sounding?, doesn’t all incoming data through all inputs go through the same dac processes?, other than some inputs being bit-rate limited.
> would I be better served feeding the iDSD from my node 2i optical or coax out for Tidal streaming?, or seeking a different option for my needs?


feeding data from source through a seperate unit is usually better due to jitter snd some other factors , if optical it’s inherently higher in jitter i’d go coaxial


----------



## JaquesGelee

Hey there,

MConnect, Tidal, 352 kHz Samples from 2L. 

Why is there a "N/A", when i turn the filter button?

In my first tests i tried MQA directly and am pretty sure i got a blue or violett color too and was able to switch the Filter. 

may i used another App? I couldn't remember.


----------



## Ross Kyle

JaquesGelee said:


> Hey there,
> 
> MConnect, Tidal, 352 kHz Samples from 2L.
> 
> ...


if i recall filters don’t work on samples above 192 before oversampling think that’s why


----------



## chaz_flhr

Ross Kyle said:


> feeding data from source through a seperate unit is usually better due to jitter snd some other factors , if optical it’s inherently higher in jitter i’d go coaxial


If the signal is getting into the iDSD from the LAN connection raw and unfiltered wouldn’t the electronics and DAC inside the pro iDSD do a better job from start to finish on jitter and the other factors as well, rather than starting with the node 2i for first unfold? 
currently only 5% of my FLAC library is in high res 24 / 192 with no DSD yet and thanks for the heads up on optical vs coax.


----------



## Ross Kyle

chaz_flhr said:


> If the signal is getting into the iDSD from the LAN connection raw and unfiltered wouldn’t the electronics and DAC inside the pro iDSD do a better job from start to finish on jitter and the other factors as well, rather than starting with the node 2i for first unfold?
> currently only 5% of my FLAC library is in high res 24 / 192 with no DSD yet and thanks for the heads up on optical vs coax.


MQA is bad regardless due to hidden higher noise on full unfold but that’ll i leave to you heh , gimme a sec i’ll link a good video on DDCs


----------



## chaz_flhr

Ross Kyle said:


> MQA is bad regardless due to hidden higher noise on full unfold but that’ll i leave to you heh , gimme a sec i’ll link a good video on DDCs


I get it you don’t like MQA and to you on your equipment it is not acceptable but for me on my equipment with 95% of my music files being flac @16 / 44 rips and a Tidal subscription, MQA is a big improvement over the 16 / 44 files to me, maybe I will try qobuz high res for comparison later on but I currently find MQA quite good.
‘it would be nice if you would actually just answer a actual question if you had anything useful to add instead of just bashing MQA, I would think that wether it was MQA processing or a regular hi res file processing allowing the pro iDAC to do it’s thing from any input would be the optimal choice especially from the LAN, a good DAC shouldn’t care if it’s processing mp3, MQA, DSD or FLAC 24/192.


----------



## Ross Kyle

chaz_flhr said:


> I get it you don’t like MQA and to you on your equipment it is not acceptable but for me on my equipment with 95% of my music files being flac @16 / 44 rips and a Tidal subscription, MQA is a big improvement over the 16 / 44 files to me, maybe I will try qobuz high res for comparison later on but I currently find MQA quite good.
> ‘it would be nice if you would actually just answer a actual question if you had anything useful to add instead of just bashing MQA, I would think that wether it was MQA processing or a regular hi res file processing allowing the pro iDAC to do it’s thing from any input would be the optimal choice especially from the LAN, a good DAC shouldn’t care if it’s processing mp3, MQA, DSD or FLAC 24/192.


doesn’t matter if it’s a 10 k dac or a 200 dollar one unless it’s runs a PLL then a seperate transport before the DAC will always be beneficial not really bashing just truth wasn’t bashing your view but


----------



## chaz_flhr

Ross Kyle said:


> doesn’t matter if it’s a 10 k dac or a 200 dollar one unless it’s runs a PLL then a seperate transport before the DAC will always be beneficial not really bashing just truth wasn’t bashing your view but


What is a PLL? How beneficial, audible beneficial or measurement beneficial as there is a difference. Measurements are only good to a certain point in the music representation / reproduction and can only be as good as the weakest link in the chain allows it to be.
Yeah you are bashing my and many others view no matter how you spin it, that is apparently your issue, some just like beating a dead horse to apparently make sure it's dead. I understood where you stand on MQA from your first reply there was no need to keep repeating yourself.
Maybe you can't hear a difference between a standard  Tidal hi-fi 16/44 file and a MQA masters file from Tidal but I can and for a lossy format I find it amazing and good sounding.
That said I have no doubt that natively recorded high resolution 24/192 or DSD will sound better than MQA but until I aquire said files and albums I roll with what I have.


----------



## Ross Kyle

chaz_flhr said:


> What is a PLL? How beneficial, audible beneficial or measurement beneficial as there is a difference. Measurements are only good to a certain point in the music representation / reproduction and can only be as good as the weakest link in the chain allows it to be.
> Yeah you are bashing my and many others view no matter how you spin it, that is apparently your issue, some just like beating a dead horse to apparently make sure it's dead. I understood where you stand on MQA from your first reply there was no need to keep repeating yourself.
> Maybe you can't hear a difference between a standard  Tidal hi-fi 16/44 file and a MQA masters file from Tidal but I can and for a lossy format I find it amazing and good sounding.
> That said I have no doubt that natively recorded high resolution 24/192 or DSD will sound better than MQA but until I aquire said files and albums I roll with what I have.


Not it bashing your view at all lmao MQA is just a bad business practice i’m bashing the company not your view quite a stern difference each to their own i still say heh , PLL is a phased lock loop its a system that combats jitter between clocks etc more than that obvs just roughly haha end of the day it’s like everything after a point it’s like small % difference but it is slightly more noticeable higher your chains go


----------



## iFi audio

chaz_flhr said:


> So directly wired isn’t the best option?, my main goal is streaming Tidal hi-fi / masters and accessibility of my flac library on a 500gb Mirco sd card / ssd drive.
> is the streaming end of this unit that poorly implemented or bad sounding?, doesn’t all incoming data through all inputs go through the same dac processes?, other than some inputs being bit-rate limited.
> would I be better served feeding the iDSD from my node 2i optical or coax out for Tidal streaming?, or seeking a different option for my needs?



If I were you, I'd simply try everything and use the best option. We're happy how Pro iDSD's inputs are made, but at the same time I'm far from saying that they're so good that any external transport won't best them 

That's just my guess, but if you have Node 2i, you probably are quite used to it. That's why I probably would use it as a transport just to not change my playback habits


----------



## chaz_flhr

Ross Kyle said:


> Not it bashing your view at all lmao MQA is just a bad business practice i’m bashing the company not your view quite a stern difference each to their own i still say heh , PLL is a phased lock loop its a system that combats jitter between clocks etc more than that obvs just roughly haha end of the day it’s like everything after a point it’s like small % difference but it is slightly more noticeable higher your chains go


Ok thank, Yes diminishing returns always plays a part.


----------



## chaz_flhr

iFi audio said:


> If I were you, I'd simply try everything and use the best option. We're happy how Pro iDSD's inputs are made, but at the same time I'm far from saying that they're so good that any external transport won't best them
> 
> That's just my guess, but if you have Node 2i, you probably are quite used to it. That's why I probably would use it as a transport just to not change my playback habits


Guess it’ll be test time, node2i pass through vs directly connected, I was just hoping to use the node2i in another zone and star replacing my sonos nodes.


----------



## iFi audio

chaz_flhr said:


> Guess it’ll be test time,



Do let us know how it goes, I'm interested to know what will be the result of your tests


----------



## JaquesGelee (Apr 7, 2021)

What are the (speed, spec) requirements/ (track) limitations for the SDCard Slot?

I got definetly a geniue SanDisk 400GB full of tracks. But when the MUZO Player tried to indexing the files, the Pro iDSD lost the connection and won't response?

Only a restart helps here to reconnect via WiFi.

Any suggestion?


----------



## iFi audio

JaquesGelee said:


> What are the requirements/ (Track) limitations for the SDCard Slot?



As per manual: https://ifi-audio.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Pro-iDSD-User-Manual-Ver1.6.pdf

...FAT32 file structure and capacity up to 128GB.


----------



## JaquesGelee (Apr 7, 2021)

iFi audio said:


> As per manual: https://ifi-audio.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Pro-iDSD-User-Manual-Ver1.6.pdf
> 
> ...FAT32 file structure and capacity up to 128GB.


Oops, my bad.Page 12, Notes. haven't seen it. Will there be a chance to support higher capacity in the future?


----------



## iFi audio

JaquesGelee said:


> Oops, my bad.Page 12, Notes. haven't seen it. Will there bei a chance to support higher capacity in the future?



All good, and it's difficult to say for sure, but Pro iDSD has been around for quite a while now.


----------



## JaquesGelee (Apr 7, 2021)

iFi audio said:


> All good, and it's difficult to say for sure, but Pro iDSD has been around for quite a while now.


You mean cause of the slot specs in relation to the "age" of the Pro iDSD or cause of 128 GB as highest payable capacity in the year of release?

Will the Pro iDSD Support SanDisk Extreme Cards Like the U3 V30 A2?


----------



## iFi audio (Apr 7, 2021)

JaquesGelee said:


> You mean cause of the slot specs in relation to the "age" of the Pro iDSD or cause of 128 GB as highest payable capacity in the year of release?



It's more related to the SD module itself. If it internally can't go beyond FAT32 and 128GB storage space, we can't do much about it. It's like forcing say a physical drive in your computer to develop extra space


----------



## TooFrank

JaquesGelee said:


> Oops, my bad.Page 12, Notes. haven't seen it. Will there be a chance to support higher capacity in the future?


Please note that the picture below is from ifi’s homepage showing a 400 gb card!! Haven’t tried myself though. But why show it, if it not supported?


----------



## MikeyFresh (Apr 8, 2021)

TooFrank said:


> Please note that the picture below is from ifi’s homepage showing a 400 gb card!! Haven’t tried myself though. But why show it, if it not supported?



iFi seems to have already forgotten *this post exchange* from just this past January. There is no reason why the compatible capacity of a microSDXC card would be limited to 128GB unless it was intentionally done so in firmware, which they have already said is not the case.

The SD card standard says that SDXC (extended capacity) cards can be as small as 64GB, or as large as 2TB, but so far the largest offered is 1TB.

All of the other sizes being discussed here are also SDXC, which means the slot is SDXC capable. The only limitation with regard to the slot itself is when older units had a slot that was only SDHC (high capacity) compatible, in those cases the largest card you could use was 32GB.


----------



## JaquesGelee (Apr 9, 2021)

TooFrank said:


> Please note that the picture below is from ifi’s homepage showing a 400 gb card!! Haven’t tried myself though. But why show it, if it not supported?


Ooooops, maybe we get an accurate answer from support!? 

I tested the exact card, which is shown on the pic, but with 128 GB. So, i already asked for it above. I had problems with several other devices with these cards. With all of my modded ipods, neither one, nor all four sdcards worked together. I don´t know if it is because of the build in controller, but every equipment with which i tested these geniue cards crashed. So, also the Pro iDSD  yesterday, i had to hard reset with power unplug.



MikeyFresh said:


> iFi seems to have already forgotten *this post exchange* from just this past January. There is no reason why the compatible capacity of a microSDXC card would be limited to 128GB unless it was intentionally done so in firmware, which they have already said is not the case.
> 
> The SD card standard says that SDXC (extended capacity) cards can be as small as 64GB, or as large as 2TB, but so far the largest offered is 1TB.
> 
> All of the other sizes being discussed here are also SDXC, which means the slot is SDXC capable. The only limitation with regard to the slot itself is when older units had a slot that was only SDHC (high capacity) compatible, in those cases the largest card you could use was 32GB.


I have cards up to 1 TB from SanDisk and Samsung. But the MUZO Player is the only App, which give the option to access the slot. Or is there another app, which i don´t have in mind? So, please give me input (only android, no apple or pc available actually).

I tested my Samsung Evo 512 GB Card from my Poly yesterday, formatted to exfat, doesn`t work. Shows the 6000 tracks, but than Muzo crashes and the Pro iDSD isn´t reachable anymore via WLAN, so i had to restart all. I have to test more today, but therefore i have to copy my music and format the cards aso...The 400 GB SanDisk Card FAT32 doesn´t work at all.

So, it only could be software limited...

Sorry, but i am a bit disappointed actually with an 3k device....I cried about the handling of the poly, but this a shame.

I wan´t to plug in an 1 TB card to be more flexible and don´t have any more equip. QNAP died last summer.

(2TB is too expensive and surely not managable as i know for many app´s)


----------



## MikeyFresh (Oct 29, 2022)

.


----------



## JaquesGelee (Apr 9, 2021)

MikeyFresh said:


> I agree, although I don't own an iDSD Pro and so can't test anything. I take from your post that you are trying to access these cards via the MUZO app, but what about with the front panel controls? Isn't there a way to do SD card playback using the front panel controls?
> 
> I have a $99 Shanling M0 portable, at the time I bought it the largest available microSD card was 400GB, which I used for a time before upgrading first to a 512GB, and now more recently a 1TB card, all were SanDisk Extreme and none required any special reformatting, they all just worked, in a $99 device.


Ok, tried it again. When i start the Pro iDSD with SanDisk Extreme Card U3 V30 128 and 400 GB (shown on ifi Marketing picture, only 4GB music on it), the Pro iDSD stocked in restoring Last Volume Display. Only a hard reset via Power unplug helps.

Also other geniue cards aren't managable. FAT32, exFAT, nothing...The MUZO Player shows the card, Status please wait, card isn't shown anymore, Pro iDSD crashes. Hard reset.

Either i am doing anything wrong, my Pro iDSD has a defect or i don't know what to do next...

As for the music Access you only could choose the sources itself, but control is only via App or a PC.


----------



## MikeyFresh (Oct 29, 2022)

.


----------



## JaquesGelee

MikeyFresh said:


> OK I understand now, maybe a last ditch effort would be an uninstall and reinstall of that app? Can't hurt to try, maybe the issue lies with the app itself, otherwise I'd have to agree that your unit might have a defect of some sort.
> 
> Perhaps a different app might help, I've never heard much good said of MUZO, maybe try mconnect Lite?
> 
> I imagine any of these apps would attempt to index what is on the card after it is recognized, so the MUZO app crashing could be a failure there, or it could even be device related. I would suggest a restart of the Android device, close all other apps, start with a clean slate and allow the music folder to be indexed. That shouldn't pose any big challenge with a 4GB test folder, but a large folder with thousands of tracks could take a very long time and/or stress the available RAM and CPU of the Android device depending on which device it is, you'd likely not want to do a bunch of multitasking during that index process (assuming that is actually what MUZO is doing.


I already un- and reinstalled the App, cause i know this issue with the GoFigure App to find the Chord Poly. 

The Pro iDSD crashes itself, before i've openened the MUZO Player App.

MConnect doesn't show those sources or i am blind!? I don't know any other Android App to manage the SDCard Hifi-Cast, BubbleUPnP, aso.

Maybe i miss anything and am the jerk, but idk. Thought it is more intuitive and self regulated. Have to to some other things now and try it later again.


----------



## MikeyFresh (Oct 29, 2022)

.


----------



## TooFrank

I have just tried to insert a 128 gb card (FAT32) with some flac music on, ordered in album folders. Didn’t work with MUZO, it can see the card, but not what is on it. mConnect can‘t see the card...So I am sort of lost too. Fortunately, this functionality was not the reason for buying the pro...


----------



## dcguy73

TooFrank said:


> I have just tried to insert a 128 gb card (FAT32) with some flac music on, ordered in album folders. Didn’t work with MUZO, it can see the card, but not what is on it. mConnect can‘t see the card...So I am sort of lost too. Fortunately, this functionality was not the reason for buying the pro...


I'm able to use MUZO successfully with a 128 GB FAT32 card. It took a few tries to get it to work at first.


----------



## iFi audio

MikeyFresh said:


> iFi seems to have already forgotten *this post exchange* from just this past January. There is no reason why the compatible capacity of a microSDXC card would be limited to 128GB unless it was intentionally done so in firmware, which they have already said is not the case.



You're right, we had that exchange indeed, now I remember. FAT32 file structure is the only requirement.


----------



## TooFrank

dcguy73 said:


> I'm able to use MUZO successfully with a 128 GB FAT32 card. It took a few tries to get it to work at first.


Thanks - will give it another try...


----------



## dcguy73 (Apr 10, 2021)

*Also, iDSD Pro/MUZO won't play >DSD64 files or DXD files. And it will ignore your folder structure and just generate a long list of songs. It's particular about metadata, as well. Some of your songs will come up as "unknown" songs. It'd be great to have greater capacity (512GB) cards work, but the MUZO interface is terrible, so greater capacity just means it takes you longer to scroll through all your songs to get to the one you want.

If you're just getting started, don't bother with loading up folders of songs on a microSD card. Just put a few tunes on there to get things rolling.

This aspect of the iDSD Pro is not iFi Audio's greatest work.


----------



## JaquesGelee (Apr 10, 2021)

iFi audio said:


> You're right, we had that exchange indeed, now I remember. FAT32 file structure is the only requirement.


This couldn't be the only requirement. Please proove it...

Edit: Ahhh. Ok, maybe only the Müzo Player don't show it up. But how to control the SDCard slot in another way?

I tested about ten different geniue cards from 128 GB up to 1TB and different speed from SanDisk and Samsung.

The only card which actually work for me is the SanDisk Extreme U3 V30 128GB FAT32 with only 4GB music on it. Hard work for Müzo Player.

All other cards won't be detected from Müzo Player. It's called TF there.

Is there any other App recommended?

I actually use a SDCard to USBC adaptor to my phone and stream via BubbleUPnP.


----------



## chaz_flhr (Apr 10, 2021)

dcguy73 said:


> *Also, iDSD Pro/MUZO won't play >DSD64 files or DXD files. And it will ignore your folder structure and just generate a long list of songs. It's particular about metadata, as well. Some of your songs will come up as "unknown" songs. It'd be great to have greater capacity (512GB) cards work, but the MUZO interface is terrible, so greater capacity just means it takes you longer to scroll through all your songs to get to the one you want.
> 
> If you're just getting started, don't bother with loading up folders of songs on a microSD card. Just put a few tunes on there to get things rolling.
> 
> This aspect of the iDSD Pro is not iFi Audio's greatest work.


Yes the streaming and local file management greatly diminishes what could have been a outstanding one box solution.
IMHO ifi would have been better off to not including streaming, USB, micro SD slots with a reduced price and earlier release.
One of the reasons I purchased it was due to local files handling and streaming good thing I already have a node 2i on hand or this would be returned.
That said the DAC and amp portion are amazing.


----------



## iFi audio

JaquesGelee said:


> Is there any other App recommended?



I'd have to double-check, but Muzo is the only one I'm aware of at the moment.


----------



## Gene4797

Hello to everyone, I just like to share my experience, I have pro idsd like 3 months and today I connected to power supply, what the deference, idsd start to sound much better right away, faster, more air, better in all aspects, I didn’t buy expensive one, one of power supply from China for 100 dollars, I’m really shocked


----------



## iFi audio

Gene4797 said:


> Hello to everyone, I just like to share my experience, I have pro idsd like 3 months and today I connected to power supply, what the deference, idsd start to sound much better right away, faster, more air, better in all aspects, I didn’t buy expensive one, one of power supply from China for 100 dollars, I’m really shocked



Do you mean a linear power supply?


----------



## Ross Kyle

Anyone try the newer elite power supply on IDSD or iCan ? , also if I say bought one and then used my dc loop cable is there any negatives or does the galvanic isolation of the IDSD prevent any pickups in ican


----------



## Gene4797 (Apr 12, 2021)

iFi audio said:


> Do you mean a linear power supply?


Yes I do, I just made mistake, I spent not a hundred, I spent 225, anyway worth it


----------



## chaz_flhr

Ross Kyle said:


> Anyone try the newer elite power supply on IDSD or iCan ? , also if I say bought one and then used my dc loop cable is there any negatives or does the galvanic isolation of the IDSD prevent any pickups in ican


Where did the DC loop cable come from?


----------



## Ross Kyle

chaz_flhr said:


> Where did the DC loop cable come from?


i got one of amazon other something like a 50 cm dc to dc cable haha


----------



## chaz_flhr

Ross Kyle said:


> i got one of amazon other something like a 50 cm dc to dc cable haha


Thanks


----------



## dcguy73 (Apr 12, 2021)

Ross Kyle said:


> Anyone try the newer elite power supply on IDSD or iCan ? , also if I say bought one and then used my dc loop cable is there any negatives or does the galvanic isolation of the IDSD prevent any pickups in ican


Yes. I bought two of them for my Pro Stack. I wrote a serious of posts about this in the iPower X thread, starting at post # 210. I should do a proper review when I have time.


----------



## Gene4797

Guys, do you know , if the same effect if I will use power supply with Ican ? Thank you


----------



## Ross Kyle (Apr 12, 2021)

dcguy73 said:


> Yes. I bought two of them for my Pro Stack. I wrote a serious of posts about this in the iPower X thread, starting at post # 210. I should do a proper review when I have time.


Cheers ill have a look , was seeing whether just using one then dc looping both would be suffice


----------



## dcguy73

Ross Kyle said:


> Cheers ill have a look , was seeing whether just using one then dc looping both would be suffice


That would work. I experimented with using one ipower elite for both devices and it worked fine.


----------



## chaz_flhr

iFi audio said:


> 'Maninthehighcastle' is right, in that the Pro iDSD works fine and will still sound great straight out of the box BUT in an ideal world we'd call 'burnt in' 4 full days per stage.
> 
> Each 'stage' has a different signal path, so they'd need 4 days each - 4 days each for solid stage, tube state and tube state plus.
> 
> Team iFi


4 days of 24/7 just powered on or driving headphones in each stage?
My only gripe with the pro idsd is wired streaming and local file handeling which may be mostly be attributable to a poor implementation of the MUZO app or shortcomings of the app itself as opposed to hardware Issues.
 That said the build quality, versatility, DAC and amp section are amazing, very musical product great job.
‘Does ifi have any plans to improve the interface for streaming and local files?, maybe blue os would be a good alternative. Problem is MUZO isn’t up to the quality level that the pro idsd represents and is crippling to a otherwise outstanding all in one product.


----------



## chaz_flhr

datasyd said:


> Oh my, what a great review, thank you!
> 
> "As you can see" -- made me wonder if perhaps you wouldn't mind taking a video of changing the tubes for the WE396a's review? My partner won't let me go near the ifi's internals without us being confident how doable this is Also, since I own both the Pro iDSD and Pro iCAN, do you imagine there are any issues finding four matching tubes?


Why 4 matched instead of 2 for some attributes you like and 2 others for other attributes you like. I believe blue saint said in a earlier post that what the op was looking for was a combination of 2 different tubes 396A and triple mica.


----------



## chaz_flhr

bluesaint said:


> Well, you are sort of describing them both combined.  The difference between the 2 tubes is the western electrics are considered the warmest/fullest sounding of these type of tubes.  The GE JG5670 triple mica has more bass impact and slightly more airy up top.


Another experiment in sound tailoring if one owns both pro products.


----------



## Ross Kyle

WE396As i just went two matching pairs  , as for streaming element i use a pi for usb / or pi2aes with spdif / bnc , means I dont need the ifi roon bridge , i get better jitter response plus using roopie xl airplay its actually more responsive than using IDSD wireless / network no video lag or anything


----------



## Ross Kyle

dcguy73 said:


> That would work. I experimented with using one ipower elite for both devices and it worked fine.


I knew it would physically work , ive did it with the default bricks and loop cable , was more if i used on say ican then powering idsd is there any downsides power wise , sonically I know it would be fine due to isolation throughout the DAC


----------



## iFi audio

Gene4797 said:


> Yes I do, I just made mistake, I spent not a hundred, I spent 225, anyway worth it



If it's an improvement you can easily hear, I'd say it was money well spent


----------



## iFi audio

Ross Kyle said:


> WE396As



Although pricey, these are considered a step above JANs inside our Pro iDSD machines.


----------



## bluesaint

chaz_flhr said:


> Another experiment in sound tailoring if one owns both pro products.


It's been years since I had the full ifi stack, but I can say this, not all WE396a are created equal. The early 1950s JW 2C51 /396a are the one's to get. They will have 3 digit date codes.  The JW were military edition, and non JW were civilian. I still have some that I plan on keeping till end of days, but they do occasionally show up here and there.
Maybe too warm if you use these on both dac and amp.


----------



## JaquesGelee

iFi audio said:


> I'd have to double-check, but Muzo is the only one I'm aware of at the moment.


Ok, thank you. Any help about the other named things? I also please you to answer the two/ three weeks old ticket.

This one also...

Thank you


----------



## Baten

JaquesGelee said:


> Ok, thank you. Any help about the other named things? I also please you to answer the two/ three weeks old ticket.
> 
> This one also...
> 
> Thank you


iDSD Pro is currently not/available. Please try again later.

_Sorry_


----------



## iFi audio

JaquesGelee said:


> Ok, thank you. Any help about the other named things? I also please you to answer the two/ three weeks old ticket.
> 
> This one also...
> 
> Thank you



Can we please take it to PMs? It will be much easier for me to help you there, thanks!


----------



## chaz_flhr

Ross Kyle said:


> WE396As i just went two matching pairs  , as for streaming element i use a pi for usb / or pi2aes with spdif / bnc , means I dont need the ifi roon bridge , i get better jitter response plus using roopie xl airplay its actually more responsive than using IDSD wireless / network no video lag or anything


I have 5 stars in my pro ican and I just put some WE396A,s in the pro idsd i also have some triple micas on the way to test as well.


----------



## chaz_flhr

bluesaint said:


> It's been years since I had the full ifi stack, but I can say this, not all WE396a are created equal. The early 1950s JW 2C51 /396a are the one's to get. They will have 3 digit date codes.  The JW were military edition, and non JW were civilian. I still have some that I plan on keeping till end of days, but they do occasionally show up here and there.
> Maybe too warm if you use these on both dac and amp.


The matched set I purchased was from 50 / 51 not sure if they were JW’s or not So far they sound good with about 20 hrs on them I will keep my eyes open for some JW’s.
I was going to replace the 5 stars I have in the ican with the triple micas and see how that combination sounds.


----------



## bluesaint

chaz_flhr said:


> The matched set I purchased was from 50 / 51 not sure if they were JW’s or not So far they sound good with about 20 hrs on them I will keep my eyes open for some JW’s.
> I was going to replace the 5 stars I have in the ican with the triple micas and see how that combination sounds.


just make sure you do get closely matched pairs. ifi doesn't mention this, but the units does perform a self-test at startup that prevents badly matched pair from working.
The Triple Mica definitely should be an upgrade over double mica 5*.  Do keep in mind there are 5* triple mica as well.


----------



## iFi audio

bluesaint said:


> the units does perform a self-test at startup that prevents badly matched pair from working.



Although I'd have to ask internally about that just to be 100% sure, it's highly likely that you're right.


----------



## chaz_flhr

bluesaint said:


> just make sure you do get closely matched pairs. ifi doesn't mention this, but the units does perform a self-test at startup that prevents badly matched pair from working.
> The Triple Mica definitely should be an upgrade over double mica 5*.  Do keep in mind there are 5* triple mica as well.


Thanks I will keep that in mind although all tubes I buy are purchased as matched sets. Is there a known value for tolerance in matching?  Self testing makes sense if one pays attention they can see a line at the bottom of the screen scroll across from left to right upon starting some kind of timer for either self test or tube warm up.


----------



## iFi audio

chaz_flhr said:


> Is there a known value for tolerance in matching?



Although I don't know the exact value, I'll ask about that at our HQ.


----------



## bluesaint

chaz_flhr said:


> Thanks I will keep that in mind although all tubes I buy are purchased as matched sets. Is there a known value for tolerance in matching?  Self testing makes sense if one pays attention they can see a line at the bottom of the screen scroll across from left to right upon starting some kind of timer for either self test or tube warm up.


There are two criteria when it comes to matching, don't get mis-lead by random sellers:

Matching based on manufacturing date. ie. matched pair where both were made in 1950 week 15
Matching based on tube tester reading. So given these are dual triode, the reading could be 44/44 if both triodes are a perfect match.  Or 22/50 where one triode is significantly better than the other.  22/50 would be an example of not a good tube as the variance between the two triodes are quite off.
So in the above example, an excellent matched pair would be something like 50/50 for tube 1, and 49/50 for tube 2.  Or 50s across the board would be a perfect match (assuming 50 is maximum reading on the tube tester). So a horribly matched pair would be 15/40 tube 1, and 10/35 tube 2 for example.
Also the lower the reading, the less life it has left in general.  So you want the reading as high as possible

Lastly, the best possible type of matching is a combination of 1 and 2.  ie. both tubes were manufactured same week, same year, same batch and have matching triode readings on both tubes.


----------



## bluesaint

And if I had to guess how Ifi units perform self-diagnostic on the tube, is a simple combined output reading of tube 1 and tube 2.  if the variance is higher than a specified value, it won't power the tube circuit to protect itself.


----------



## iFi audio

bluesaint said:


> There are two criteria when it comes to matching, don't get mis-lead by random sellers:
> 
> Matching based on manufacturing date. ie. matched pair where both were made in 1950 week 15
> Matching based on tube tester reading. So given these are dual triode, the reading could be 44/44 if both triodes are a perfect match. Or 22/50 where one triode is significantly better than the other. 22/50 would be an example of not a good tube as the variance between the two triodes are quite off.
> ...



Very useful stuff, thanks a lot


----------



## dcguy73 (Apr 29, 2021)

So I just upgraded to a new (non-iFi) headphone amp, and my suspicions were confirmed when I connected it to the iDSD Pro. No matter what kind of filtering or processing I do to the USB signal prior to the iDSD, streaming music through the iDSD's ethernet connection (using the dreaded DSD-incompatible Muzo app) sounds more relaxed and natural. I heard the same difference when using the iDSD with an iCan Pro, but told myself that was due to my associated gear.

I feel a bit miffed. My fancy network server with an 8TB SSD, connected directly (or via iDefender+/iGalvanic/other USB devices) via USB to the iDSD (whether using Roon or Euphony Stylus), sounds inferior to streaming my NAS music through a nice ethernet cable (with an ethernet filter) while using Muzo. In addition to ethernet, using a microSD card with the iDSD sounds superior to the USB input as well.

On the one hand, I'm glad that I've discovered the best-sounding uses of the iDSD Pro. On the other hand, my server isn't hacking it with this DAC, even though the iDSD's USB connection has galvanic isolation and all that.

YMMV, of course. Maybe it's just my system?


----------



## iFi audio

dcguy73 said:


> YMMV, of course. Maybe it's just my system?



It might be, but many people would agree that music via ethernet right into a DAC can sound better than USB. And as for microSD playback, that's a very broad subject, but there are enthusiasts who really don't consider anything else


----------



## chaz_flhr

dcguy73 said:


> So I just upgraded to a new (non-iFi) headphone amp, and my suspicions were confirmed when I connected it to the iDSD Pro. No matter what kind of filtering or processing I do to the USB signal prior to the iDSD, streaming music through the iDSD's ethernet connection (using the dreaded DSD-incompatible Muzo app) sounds more relaxed and natural. I heard the same difference when using the iDSD with an iCan Pro, but told myself that was due to my associated gear.
> 
> I feel a bit miffed. My expensive network server with an 8TB SSD, connected directly (or via iDefender+/iGalvanic/other USB devices) via USB to the iDSD (whether using Roon or Euphony Stylus), sounds inferior to streaming my NAS music through a nice ethernet cable (with an ethernet filter) while using Muzo. In addition to ethernet, using a microSD card with the iDSD sounds superior to the USB input as well.
> 
> ...


It's a shame "blue os" doesn't work with the pro iDSD


----------



## JaquesGelee (Apr 30, 2021)

chaz_flhr said:


> It's a shame "blue os" doesn't work with the pro iDSD


It´s a shame that i´ver never read about an 8 TB SSD before!?   
There are a few features i´ve expected as a standard...But more i wait for an answer to my ticket for over a month now...


----------



## Ross Kyle

Does anyone have SNR / THD values of the IDSD to hand ? trying to get optimal ENOB value for use in HQ Player


----------



## Baten

Ross Kyle said:


> Does anyone have SNR / THD values of the IDSD to hand ? trying to get optimal ENOB value for use in HQ Player


The iFi micro BL was shown to truncate to 18-bit using shaped dither. So I would shoot for 18-bit..


----------



## Ross Kyle

Baten said:


> The iFi micro BL was shown to truncate to 18-bit using shaped dither. So I would shoot for 18-bit


Had it on 18 lucky eh i’ll see if i find anything else , most decent DACs are 18/19 anyway these days


----------



## iFi audio

chaz_flhr said:


> "blue os"



Can you please tell me what's that?



Baten said:


> The iFi micro BL was shown to truncate to 18-bit using shaped dither.



I'd have to double-check this.


----------



## dcguy73 (Apr 30, 2021)

iFi audio said:


> Can you please tell me what's that?
> 
> 
> 
> I'd have to double-check this.


I think he means BluOS. It's like Sonos' multiroom OS they use with their smart speakers, but BluOS is used by NAD and BlueSound digital equipment.


----------



## iFi audio

dcguy73 said:


> I think he means BluOS. It's like Sonos' multiroom OS they use with their smart speakers, but BluOS is used by NAD and BlueSound digital equipment.



Aw, okay, thanks. This makes sense


----------



## kinagiyuki

My OLED display of Pro iDSD does not show anything after I swapped the tubes inside. I have checked that there was no disconnected part.
Have I damaged something inside?


----------



## Ross Kyle

kinagiyuki said:


> My OLED display of Pro iDSD does not show anything after I swapped the tubes inside. I have checked that there was no disconnected part.
> Have I damaged something inside


Check your haven’t just turned the display off ? you can do it by clicking the  source button i keep mine in that standby mode , not long hold as that’s polarity change 

When you change source does it still not come up then something is up if that’s the case


----------



## kinagiyuki

Ross Kyle said:


> Check your haven’t just turned the display off ? you can do it by clicking the  source button i keep mine in that standby mode , not long hold as that’s polarity change
> 
> When you change source does it still not come up then something is up if that’s the case


Tried with no response. My Pro iDSD is running normally except the OLED display, weird


----------



## iFi audio

kinagiyuki said:


> Tried with no response. My Pro iDSD is running normally except the OLED display, weird



Although I don't know how to help you out, you might let us know here: https://support.ifi-audio.com

Perhaps our tech staff saw this issue already and they have some workaround.


----------



## hsimsh10

Hi community 
Did anyone try to connect external  10mhz reference clock  to IFI PRO IDSD?
Did   it work fine for you? Which BNC    cable did you use?
I  tried to connect MUTEC   REF 10 to my IFI PRO IDSD using several BNC  cables and it did not work well for me.  The DAC  flashed error message "Extern sync clock error".
I consider to try with Sotm SCLK-OCX10.  I ask to learn from your  experience before I do so...


----------



## vonBaron

Buy better DAC than try connect 2x time priced clock.


----------



## Ross Kyle

hsimsh10 said:


> Hi community
> Did anyone try to connect external  10mhz reference clock  to IFI PRO IDSD?
> Did   it work fine for you? Which BNC    cable did you use?
> I  tried to connect MUTEC   REF 10 to my IFI PRO IDSD using several BNC  cables and it did not work well for me.  The DAC  flashed error message "Extern sync clock error".
> I consider to try with Sotm SCLK-OCX10.  I ask to learn from your  experience before I do so...


read the manual but did you change the clock setting on back if using external ? and normal bnc cables should be fine


----------



## hsimsh10

Ross Kyle said:


> read the manual but did you change the clock setting on back if using external ? and normal bnc cables should be fine


Of course I read the manual and I had long thread with IFI support team which did not solve the problem. 
anyone else tried it?


----------



## dcguy73

I finally got Audirvana to work as a DLNA/UPnP server with the iDSD Pro as the output, and it can be controlled via the Audirvana remote on my iPad. Very happy to jettison the Muzo app for good. With DSD set to output as DoP 1.1, I am able to play DSD64 tracks over the network, which Muzo couldn't manage.

The sound is great, just as good as Muzo but much easier to control and scroll through my library. I still wish iFi would develop a better networking app/solution, but this will get me through for now.


----------



## iFi audio

hsimsh10 said:


> Of course I read the manual and I had long thread with IFI support team which did not solve the problem.



Can I ask what was the result of this conversation?


----------



## hsimsh10 (May 10, 2021)

iFi audio said:


> Can I ask what was the result of this conversation?


They gave up and asked me to check if I can check it with other MUTEC REF 10. I did  not find any in Israel.  I sent the MUTEC  back to Germany to check if the device is ok. The manufacturer did not find any malfunction in the REF 10 after through testing of 2 weeks.
I think it is firmware defect in IFI Pro IDSD.
it does not work in version 2.01 and 2.08. As per my finding in many thread it worked perfectly  with previous firmware versions. 
It was ticket : *#660151*
I ask again if anyone has any experience with connecting 10mhz reference clock to IFI PRO IDSD


----------



## iFi audio

hsimsh10 said:


> it does not work in version 2.01 and 2.08. As per my finding in many thread it worked perfectly with previous firmware versions.



OK, so just to double-check, Pro iDSD with firmware older than 2.01 worked with your MUTEC?


----------



## hsimsh10

iFi audio said:


> OK, so just to double-check, Pro iDSD with firmware older than 2.01 worked with your MUTEC?


I could not check it as I could not downgrade the firmware to older firmware than 2.01. However , as I wrote, I read many old posts that report significant SQ improvement whole connecting to Mutec Ref-10.
for example the post of @austinpop -

https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/reviews/my-quest-for-a-new-dac-part-4-ifi-pro-idsd-and-friends-r748/


----------



## iFi audio

hsimsh10 said:


> I could not check it as I could not downgrade the firmware to older firmware than 2.01. However , as I wrote, I read many old posts that report significant SQ improvement whole connecting to Mutec Ref-10.
> for example the post of @austinpop -
> 
> https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/reviews/my-quest-for-a-new-dac-part-4-ifi-pro-idsd-and-friends-r748/



Although I haven't tried this, I've seen feedback that Pro iDSD benefits from high quality external clocks and linear power supplies, so there's something there for sure.


----------



## hsimsh10

iFi audio said:


> Although I haven't tried this, I've seen feedback that Pro iDSD benefits from high quality external clocks and linear power supplies, so there's something there for sure.


But I cannot enjoy it due to these errors…
Does Ifi acknowledge this issue and will fix it in next firmware release ?


----------



## iFi audio

hsimsh10 said:


> But I cannot enjoy it due to these errors…
> Does Ifi acknowledge this issue and will fix it in next firmware release ?



I've asked our team about your case already. If I get a reply, I'll let you know, but from what I can tell your Pro iDSD should work with that Mutec.


----------



## hsimsh10

iFi audio said:


> I've asked our team about your case already. If I get a reply, I'll let you know, but from what I can tell your Pro iDSD should work with that Mutec.


Yes it should. But I get this error message all the time. Thus why I initiated this thread to check if there is any ifi pro IDSD owned the use external reference clock. My dealer provided me his own PRO IDSD and it did not work either. Thus is why I think it is firmware issue.


----------



## iFi audio

hsimsh10 said:


> Yes it should. But I get this error message all the time. Thus why I initiated this thread to check if there is any ifi pro IDSD owned the use external reference clock. My dealer provided me his own PRO IDSD and it did not work either. Thus is why I think it is firmware issue.



OK, let me see where we are with that.


----------



## iFi audio

hsimsh10 said:


> Thus is why I think it is firmware issue.



It is related to firmware indeed, clock sync was removed several FW versions ago. I'll check which FW was the last one that supported it and I'll get back to you


----------



## Baten

iFi audio said:


> It is related to firmware indeed, clock sync was removed several FW versions ago. I'll check which FW was the last one that supported it and I'll get back to you


----------



## hsimsh10 (May 12, 2021)

iFi audio said:


> It is related to firmware indeed, clock sync was removed several FW versions ago. I'll check which FW was the last one that supported it and I'll get back to you


I  do not understand it!
This feature still appears in the user manual!
There is no publication that  IFI ceased supporting external clock !
I bought the external clock because I was led to think it will upgrade the DAC SQ.
And I do not want to downgrade to version 1.x as it does not include MQA support !


----------



## dcguy73

hsimsh10 said:


> I  do not understand it!
> This feature still appears in the user manual!
> There is no publication that  IFI ceased supporting external clock !
> I bought the external clock because I was led to think it will upgrade the DAC SQ.
> And I do not want to downgrade to version 1.x as it does not include MQA support !


Yes, if this is a "professional" product, why in the world would the clock sync function be removed from the firmware?


----------



## iFi audio

hsimsh10 said:


> I do not understand it!
> This feature still appears in the user manual!
> There is no publication that IFI ceased supporting external clock !
> I bought the external clock because I was led to think it will upgrade the DAC SQ.
> And I do not want to downgrade to version 1.x as it does not include MQA support !



I feel your pain, but perhaps there is a firmware that has clock sync and MQA, I should know within a day or so.


----------



## iFi audio

@hsimsh10 

A small update. It turns out that the clock sync function wasn't removed along with FW updates. Today I've asked one of our staff to try his 10MHz external clock with his Pro iDSD (FW2.08) and it worked without any issues. 

The status displayed on your Pro iDSD indicates that it doesn't see your Mutec. There are three options here:

- your Pro iDSD's clock connections are broken 
- your cable isn't 75 Ohms
- your Mutec doesn't output what it should

The simplest thing to do would be to swap a BNC cable and see whether this helps. If there's no change, then either Mutec has to be checked, or Pro iDSD. They should talk to each other without problems.


----------



## hsimsh10

iFi audio said:


> @hsimsh10
> 
> A small update. It turns out that the clock sync function wasn't removed along with FW updates. Today I've asked one of our staff to try his 10MHz external clock with his Pro iDSD (FW2.08) and it worked without any issues.
> 
> ...


Thanks. I checked it with several 75ohm BNC cables. Including the one that your IFI support team sent to me. 
I checked it with another Pro IDSD that my dealer loaned to me. 
I sent my mutec to Germany and they checked in their lab and did no find any issue.
It works perfectly with other devices. 
I also have SOTM devices (TX-USBultra and Sms200Ultra) and they work  fine  with the MUTEC. 
Thus is why I thought that there is a defect in 2.01 and 2.08 firmware versions. 
I ask again, do you have any customer that uses reference 10mhz clock and his Pro IDSD works fine while its  firmware is 2.0x?
By the way - when I power up the IFI PRO while I push the filter selector, then the IFI pro enters into Service mode and its display is changed and include additional information 
including notification that the ifi is connected external 10mhz clock. 
Therefore I think think that PRO IDSD does recognize the MUTEC. However , after working few minutes - It start to display  this intermittent messages I sent your before …


----------



## Baten

hsimsh10 said:


> By the way - when I power up the IFI PRO while I push the filter selector, then the IFI pro enters into Service mode and its display is changed and include additional information
> including notification that the ifi is connected external 10mhz clock.
> Therefore I think think that PRO IDSD does recognize the MUTEC. However , after working few minutes - It start to display  this intermittent messages I sent your before …



It does sound like your unit does not work stable with it. Hopefully someone can help you isolate the issue.


----------



## iFi audio

hsimsh10 said:


> I ask again, do you have any customer that uses reference 10mhz clock and his Pro IDSD works fine while its firmware is 2.0x?



As I wrote, Pro iDSD works with external clocks on latest FW, that's not where the problem is in your case. If your Mutec is OK and so are cables, then your Pro iDSD might be at fault here. Do you have it under warranty?


----------



## hsimsh10

iFi audio said:


> As I wrote, Pro iDSD works with external clocks on latest FW, that's not where the problem is in your case. If your Mutec is OK and so are cables, then your Pro iDSD might be at fault here. Do you have it under warranty?





iFi audio said:


> As I wrote, Pro iDSD works with external clocks on latest FW, that's not where the problem is in your case. If your Mutec is OK and so are cables, then your Pro iDSD might be at fault here. Do you have it under warranty?


As I wrote - the dealer in Israel lent me his demo Pro IDSD and the problem occurred with his device as well …


----------



## dcguy73 (May 14, 2021)

For those that own the iDSD Pro, I can unequivocally recommend the new iFi SupaNova cable. It brings much blacker backgrounds, sharper transients, and better dynamics to the DAC. If you're using the iDSD Pro as a streamer via an Ethernet connection, I also recommend using a SupaNova cable with your network switch. The combination of the two upgrades in my system is fantastic. 

Previously, I had all of my digital equipment hooked into my PS Audio P5 Power Plant via PS Audio cables. My system has been sounding rather flat lately, so I picked up two iPower Elites, one for my iCan Pro (which is now moved to my other system) and one for my iDSD Pro. I was undecided about the iPower Elites with PS Audio cabling, but adding the SupaNova cables brought them up another level. 

Right now, as I only have two SupaNova cables, I have one designated for my network switch and one for the iDSD and my music server. My Keces P8 is doing double duty for the iDSD and music server with one SupaNova cable. The iPower Elites are set aside for now, but only because I lack three individual SupaNova cables to power everything separately. 

The sound I get with my digital sources plugged directly into the wall outlet via SupaNova cables is more vibrant and vivid than what I was getting with my P5 power plant and PS Audio cables.

*Note: the SupaNova cables didn't play well with my P5 Power Plant (the dynamics got flattened out), so I have them plugged directly into the wall. As they're active cables with surge protection, I'm not worried about the connected equipment getting fried. They also didn't sound good with my Pathos tube amp (flattened dynamics), so I have them on my digital sources only.


----------



## iFi audio

dcguy73 said:


> For those that own the iDSD Pro, I can unequivocally recommend the new iFi SupaNova cable. It brings much blacker backgrounds, sharper transients, and better dynamics to the DAC. If you're using the iDSD Pro as a streamer via an Ethernet connection, I also recommend using a SupaNova cable with your network switch. The combination of the two upgrades in my system is fantastic.
> 
> Previously, I had all of my digital equipment hooked into my PS Audio P5 Power Plant via PS Audio cables. My system has been sounding rather flat lately, so I picked up two iPower Elites, one for my iCan Pro (which is now moved to my other system) and one for my iDSD Pro. I was undecided about the iPower Elites with PS Audio cabling, but adding the SupaNova cables brought them up another level.
> 
> ...



Thanks a ton! We like PS Audio and what Paul McGowan does on YT, so it's nice to know that our cable did well in this company 



hsimsh10 said:


> As I wrote - the dealer in Israel lent me his demo Pro IDSD and the problem occurred with his device as well …



I give up then 

However, someone from our support should contact you again by now.


----------



## hsimsh10

iFi audio said:


> Thanks a ton! We like PS Audio and what Paul McGowan does on YT, so it's nice to know that our cable did well in this company
> 
> 
> 
> ...


@iFi audio 
Do you know if  there  is  any owner of Pro IDSD that uses it together with external reference 10mhz clock?


----------



## iFi audio

hsimsh10 said:


> Do you know if there is any owner of Pro IDSD that uses it together with external reference 10mhz clock?



Yes, as I wrote for example one of our staff here in UK, who built himself a standalone 10MHz clock for his Pro iDSD. It works. Based on his feedback I know that the issue you're experiencing isn't related to firmware. There probably are others here on this forum, but I can't recall anyone specific.


----------



## Baten

hsimsh10 said:


> @iFi audio
> Do you know if  there  is  any owner of Pro IDSD that uses it together with external reference 10mhz clock?


Here is an older audiophilestyle article. There, they claim they had it working with Mutec Ref-10 reference clock. (imagine how funny it would be if it never synced and all of their listening experience was with mutec clock unsynced lol. just saying! )
https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/reviews/my-quest-for-a-new-dac-part-4-ifi-pro-idsd-and-friends-r748/


----------



## hsimsh10

Baten said:


> Here is an older audiophilestyle article. There, they claim they had it working with Mutec Ref-10 reference clock. (imagine how funny it would be if it never synced and all of their listening experience was with mutec clock unsynced lol. just saying! )
> https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/reviews/my-quest-for-a-new-dac-part-4-ifi-pro-idsd-and-friends-r748/


Yes. This  article raised my curiosity around external clock. This article is before firmware 2.01 was introduced. 
I could not find any later article about combination of Pro IDSD and external clock. 
This is why I think is is related to firmware 2.0x problem


----------



## iFi audio

hsimsh10 said:


> This is why I think is is related to firmware 2.0x problem



I was just about to say again that firmware has nothing to do with this situation, but instead let me ask how that Mutec worked out with other DACs (have you tried it?), and whether have you tried any other clock with your Pro iDSD?


----------



## Ross Kyle

Had IDSD for best part of two years now , was wondering why periodically I get this rapid clicking noise that is not interference and i know its the idsd , it evnetually disappears but what causes it or what maeks it eventually disappears is still a mystery


----------



## hsimsh10

iFi audio said:


> I was just about to say again that firmware has nothing to do with this situation, but instead let me ask how that Mutec worked out with other DACs (have you tried it?), and whether have you tried any other clock with your Pro iDSD?


I  tried the MUTEC  with other PRO IDSD  lent by the local dealer and problem persisted
I tried the MUTEC  with other devices (Sotm TX-USBULTRA  and Sotm SMS200ULtra and Uptone Etherregen  and MUTEC MC3+ ). It worked fine.
I do  not have any other clock to test with.
I  restarted this thread  as I   want to purchase SOTM  Sclk-OCX10 clock and I want to verify I will not have these issues with the new   clock...


----------



## Baten

hsimsh10 said:


> I  restarted this thread  as I   want to purchase SOTM  Sclk-OCX10 clock and I want to verify I will not have these issues with the new   clock...


Seems risky, can you try the SOTM in a store first?


----------



## iFi audio

Baten said:


> Seems risky, can you try the SOTM in a store first?



Sounds like a plan @hsimsh10 

I've asked internally and our team can't replicate your issue. Perhaps it's an odd interaction with that Mutec, so trying out Pro iDSD with another clock (if possible) would tell us more. Btw. our support reached out to you yet?


----------



## hsimsh10

iFi audio said:


> Sounds like a plan @hsimsh10
> 
> I've asked internally and our team can't replicate your issue. Perhaps it's an odd interaction with that Mutec, so trying out Pro iDSD with another clock (if possible) would tell us more. Btw. our support reached out to you yet?


IFI  support still have not reached out yet


----------



## iFi audio

hsimsh10 said:


> IFI support still have not reached out yet



OK, I'll double-check that as well.


----------



## Louisiana

I've had the Pro iCAN for a year now, and I've sneaked around the iDSD like a cat after a mouse - no idea why I've waited so long!
In one word: WOW!


----------



## Sebastien Chiu

Louisiana said:


> I've had the Pro iCAN for a year now, and I've sneaked around the iDSD like a cat after a mouse - no idea why I've waited so long!
> In one word: WOW!



Awesome set-up. Glad you are enjoying it and love how you organized it.


----------



## dcguy73 (Jun 26, 2021)

Louisiana said:


> I've had the Pro iCAN for a year now, and I've sneaked around the iDSD like a cat after a mouse - no idea why I've waited so long!
> In one word: WOW!


After you've saved up, I suggest your next purchase(s) be upgraded tubes for the iDSD Pro and/or iPower Elite 15V power supplies for the Pro stack. 

Upgraded tubes will increase the distinctions between solid-state, Tube, and Tube+ modes and make the sound more three-dimensional and holographic. 

The iPower Elite power supplies will eliminate any background noise from the stack and/or the tubes (you'll only notice the noise after it's gone) and take you to the next level. Get one for the iCan Pro and one for the iDSD Pro, and you can roll whatever power cables you'd like with them. I find iFi's SupaNova cables (I know, I know, another purchase) to have really good synergy with the iPower Elites and the Pro devices, but any power cable you have on hand will do.

I've fully upgraded my Pro stack, and I love the improvements to the sound.


----------



## Louisiana

dcguy73 said:


> Upgraded tubes will increase the distinctions between solid-state, Tube, and Tube+ modes and make the sound more three-dimensional and holographic.


I know! 











The Sylvanias working in my iCAN.


----------



## iFi audio (Jun 28, 2021)

Louisiana said:


> I know!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## TooFrank

dcguy73 said:


> After you've saved up, I suggest your next purchase(s) be upgraded tubes for the iDSD Pro and/or iPower Elite 15V power supplies for the Pro stack.
> 
> Upgraded tubes will increase the distinctions between solid-state, Tube, and Tube+ modes and make the sound more three-dimensional and holographic.
> 
> ...


So if I would upgrade the tubes in the idsd Pro, which would you recommend and how much are they?
mane thanks👍


----------



## Ross Kyle

TooFrank said:


> So if I would upgrade the tubes in the idsd Pro, which would you recommend and how much are they?
> mane thanks👍


there’s a few brands i went for NOS Generel Electric 396a.  s  for. both. idsd. and the ican , 50d stock was about 100 dollars each i got them for


----------



## TooFrank

Many thanks. I am in Europe too. Where did you buy them? Please if you have a link?


----------



## Ross Kyle

TooFrank said:


> Many thanks. I am in Europe too. Where did you buy them? Please if you have a link?


ebay is your best bet , and look for ones that are matched together


----------



## TooFrank

I am very unexperienced in the tube world. Did a quick search on NOS General Electric 396a and this is one of the results:




Sound rather cheap - is this the right stuff?
Again many thanks and excuse my ignorance


----------



## dcguy73

TooFrank said:


> Many thanks. I am in Europe too. Where did you buy them? Please if you have a link?


You have a lot of choices available to you, @TooFrank. Take a look through previous posts in this thread. eBay is one place to look, but I have seen European audio stores online that also sell tubes. I like 2C51 tubes in the iFi products, myself.


----------



## TooFrank

dcguy73 said:


> You have a lot of choices available to you, @TooFrank. Take a look through previous posts in this thread. eBay is one place to look, but I have seen European audio stores online that also sell tubes. I like 2C51 tubes in the iFi products, myself.


Thanks a million, I was just concerned if I can make a bad choice. I liked the statement saying that there will more noticable difference between ssd, tube and tube+.😜


----------



## iFi audio

TooFrank said:


> I liked the statement saying that there will more noticable difference between ssd, tube and tube+.



Suffice it to say, differences between these modes are rather easily noticeable


----------



## MLGrado (Jul 5, 2021)

A small update on my iDSD Pro tube rolling.  I purchased my unit second hand, and it had to my great excitement Western Electric 396a already rolled into it.  Unfortunately, they were very gassy tubes, and at higher volumes caused nasty, nasty noises.  The iDSD as a whole hated the whole experience.  Everything would go haywire when those tubes acted up.

Got my hands on a true NOS pair of 1960's vintage RCA next.  I liked them just as well as the WE (when the WE was actually working properly)

But today I decided to try a pair of Sylvania 5670 Gold Labels.  WOW.  Best sound yet out of the iDSD Pro.  Oh my goodness.  Tube sweetness with increased bass authority and definition and a treble even more airy and sublime and smooth without any harshness or unwanted harmonic distortion.

*BUT PLEASE TAKE NOTE.  If you have no experience tube rolling, I suggest you leave this unit well enough alone.  The tube sockets are easy to break if you are not especially careful, and the Wifi Antenna cable MUST be accounted for with great care during the disassembly and reassembly.  I don't want to be responsible for anyone hurting their unit and voiding the warranty on this most incredible piece of gear.  



The RCA I just took out*




*The Sylvania I rolled in*





My NOS GE STASH... so I keep this 'End Game' DAC/head-amp running on her tubes for as long as she decides to live lol





*And here is an interesting vintage pair I picked up.  I am not familiar with CECO.  Any one have knowledge who made these and when?  I am reading up all the sparse info I can find on this company.  It seems they were absorbed by Gold Seal, which I believe was then absorbed my RCA,  so I feel fairly safe proclaiming these are RCA tubes as well. *


----------



## Louisiana

MLGrado said:


> But today I decided to try a pair of Sylvania 5670 Gold Labels.  WOW.  Best sound yet out of the iDSD Pro.  Oh my goodness.  Tube sweetness with increased bass authority and definition and a treble even more airy and sublime and smooth without any harshness or unwanted harmonic distortion.


I use the same Tubes, and yes, best i hear so far, i like them more as my Bendix!


----------



## iFi audio

MLGrado said:


> A small update on my iDSD Pro tube rolling.  I purchased my unit second hand, and it had to my great excitement Western Electric 396a already rolled into it.  Unfortunately, they were very gassy tubes, and at higher volumes caused nasty, nasty noises.  The iDSD as a whole hated the whole experience.  Everything would go haywire when those tubes acted up.
> 
> Got my hands on a true NOS pair of 1960's vintage RCA next.  I liked them just as well as the WE (when the WE was actually working properly)
> 
> ...



Thanks for this feedback! I have to ask our tube geek about these. WE369As were his fav thus far


----------



## Matschgo

Dreamteam on the rocks


----------



## iFi audio

Matschgo said:


> Dreamteam on the rocks


Sure is!
Great shots and cool stuff with LS50


----------



## chaz_flhr

TooFrank said:


> So if I would upgrade the tubes in the idsd Pro, which would you recommend and how much are they?
> mane thanks👍


Make sure they are matched sets both ifi pro products are finicky about tubes that aren’t closely matched.


----------



## Fugue

I ordered one of these DACS yesterday, so this might be a bit premature, but assuming I leave the unit on in tube mode for 8 hours a day, how long should the tubes last? And when the time to change them arrives, do I just remove the 4 screws on the back? The owner's manual doesn't address changing tubes. Thanks in advance.


----------



## iFi audio

chaz_flhr said:


> Make sure they are matched sets both ifi pro products are finicky about tubes that aren’t closely matched.



Tubes should be matched, yup!



Fugue said:


> assuming I leave the unit on in tube mode for 8 hours a day, how long should the tubes last?



Stock tubes (JAN GE 5670) can go for thousands of hours.



Fugue said:


> And when the time to change them arrives, do I just remove the 4 screws on the back



All screws on the rear should be removed, so that the front panel with the main PCB attached can easily slide off.


----------



## Fugue

iFi audio said:


> Tubes should be matched, yup!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you. I actually bought one a few months ago, but it kept locking up/freezing (it wouldn't even turn off--I had to unplug it!), so I returned it. I loved the sound, so I'm hoping that was just a bad one.


----------



## iFi audio

Fugue said:


> Thank you. I actually bought one a few months ago, but it kept locking up/freezing (it wouldn't even turn off--I had to unplug it!), so I returned it. I loved the sound, so I'm hoping that was just a bad one.


It looks like you got a faulty unit. They shouldn't behave like that, and our support is always here to help in case of any issues: https://support.ifi-audio.com


----------



## JaquesGelee (Aug 6, 2021)

Fugue said:


> Thank you. I actually bought one a few months ago, but it kept locking up/freezing (it wouldn't even turn off--I had to unplug it!), so I returned it. I loved the sound, so I'm hoping that was just a bad one.


I got the same problems of suddenly freezes and N/A shown on the dislpay in idle and source select for month now. Unplugging power plug is the only way to revive. A few tickets, no concret answer to this.  I don´t know, unit is a few month young.
But i haven´t opened the unit and i don´t think about to do it, definetly not until guarantee ends.


----------



## iFi audio

JaquesGelee said:


> Unplugging power plug is the only way to revive. A few tickets, no concret answer to this.



I just took a look at your ticket and saw a question there whether Pro iDSD had its latest firmware installed. We can take it to PMs


----------



## JaquesGelee

iFi audio said:


> I just took a look at your ticket and saw a question there whether Pro iDSD had its latest firmware installed. We can take it to PMs


Sure, will gladly send PM.


----------



## adydula

My unit should be here next Tuesday!

:>)


----------



## iFi audio

adydula said:


> My unit should be here next Tuesday!
> 
> :>)



Great stuff, please let us know how you like it


----------



## adydula

Will do its got stiff competition here for sure.
What I am looking for is the ability to play with the digital filters and compare with my Schiit Bifrost 2 MB dac, which is my gold standard for years now. A really great dac at a really good price IMO.

The iFi Pro DSD has many variables and I hope they are not compromised trying to get it all to work very well.

Many great reviews and I am looking forward to using this dac/amp.

Alex


----------



## iFi audio

adydula said:


> The iFi Pro DSD has many variables and I hope they are not compromised trying to get it all to work very well.



Pro iDSD is packed with features because several sircuit parts were cleverly used to do multiple things, and there was no reason not to fully exploit that 



adydula said:


> Will do its got stiff competition here for sure.



I agree, however I haven't yet seen anything similar as far as functionalities go 

Enjoy the ride


----------



## adydula (Aug 10, 2021)

iFi audio said:


> Pro iDSD is packed with features because several sircuit parts were cleverly used to do multiple things, and there was no reason not to fully exploit that
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It has arrived.
Short summary:
The amp is decent.
The dac is superb.

I will give it a few days hear and write up my honest assesment.

Alex


----------



## iFi audio

adydula said:


> The amp is decent.
> The dac is superb.



I'll take it that you like your new purchase 

And thanks for your feedback!


----------



## adydula

iFi audio said:


> I'll take it that you like your new purchase
> 
> And thanks for your feedback!


I was not expecting the iFi Pro DSD to be as good as it is.....
You have a "real" winner here on your hands....
Its a superb device!

I will write up some more in the next few days..
Alex


----------



## iFi audio

adydula said:


> I was not expecting the iFi Pro DSD to be as good as it is.....
> You have a "real" winner here on your hands....
> Its a superb device!



Inner confidence wants me to say "I know, right?", but let's just say that I won't disagree


----------



## adydula

Ha! Lol!
Inner confidence...

The only scary part so far was the Filter button stuck on for me once...this was really odd. Seems like a little play in the shaft its connected to or into the housing to depress the pushbutton selector pcb.

Happened once, so far its working ok fingers crossed etc...

That said I just sold a well known dac that this is replacing...

Alex


----------



## iFi audio

adydula said:


> That said I just sold a well known dac that this is replacing...



I respect that   



adydula said:


> The only scary part so far was the Filter button stuck on for me once...this was really odd. Seems like a little play in the shaft its connected to or into the housing to depress the pushbutton selector pcb.



Just to make sure, this wasn't related to software but that filter knob specifically, am I right?


----------



## adydula

iFi audio said:


> I respect that
> 
> 
> 
> Just to make sure, this wasn't related to software but that filter knob specifically, am I right?


Yes the actual small knob that is to the left of the large input selector knob. It physically was depressed and would not release and allow another movement. Like from DSD 512 to DSD 1024 etc..


----------



## adydula

The dac out to my PassLabs HPA-1 is 'EXCELLENT"...and I mean very, very good...Stellar.

I have been a Schiit MB fan since day 1 and still am.

This dac is very different IMO...one thing I have learned from your tech stuff is for the lower bits is like DS, but for the upper bits its like MB...very interesting.

I like Class A amps and have several and your internal line stage / amp is also class A.

I like this.

The amps balanced out for me is better than the SE out. I wish you had a standard size 4 Pin XL connection on the front. But I have a nice 4.4mm to XLR adapter cable that works well.

Back at ya...

Alex


----------



## iFi audio

adydula said:


> The amps balanced out for me is better than the SE out.



That's true, Pro iDSD is a fully differential balanced design.



adydula said:


> I wish you had a standard size 4 Pin XL connection on the front.



If there was enough space, we would. But these days 4.4mm is getting more and more popular and as a manufacturer we have to address such things


----------



## adydula

The issue even with a 4.4 mm jack is the giant cables we real headphone addicts use put a lot of stress on even this better than the prior smaller 2.2 mm one.


----------



## adydula (Aug 12, 2021)

Well its day 2 with this neat little "box" full of wonderful engineering and technology for sure....
Why did I buy this?
Its expensive, small and has lots of function and features buried inside it.
My father told me if you want something good then go to a store that specifically deals in that item your interested in.
Well I think iFi is kindof that "store" that specializes in AIO's and cramming a lot of good quality stuff in a small box.
This is the iFi Pro DSD for sure, in spades.

Been doing this headphone stuff for many years....had / have 30 + amps and many dacs and many headphones....they come and go.

We all have differing tastes and preferences and bias....for sure.

What interested me in the Pro DSD was its engineering and design philosophy ?
Class A
NOS plus several other filter choices that are available for quick selection.
Tubes ! ? ! Yes even them.
Upsample yes if u want
DSD etc
Mix and match many choices....OMG yes.
A dac that's really a well thought our dac...lovely.

Yes I read all the stuff all over the net...SBAF. Head-fi, ASR, and all the reviews and videos.
But in the end its my ears that count.
So I had to try and buy.
Still a 30 day send back from the retailer I bought from.
But don't think this one is going back anytime soon.

I am using a set of HD 650's and Final Audio D8000 Pros..just sold most of my other totl cans and have settled in on these 2 stellar performers.

They both work and pair very well with the Pro DSD nicely.

The main attraction was how well the dac would work and compared to what I have been using for years.
I just sold my long time favorite. Done.

Well many often ask well how does it sound?
Well the answer is very good dependent on you source.
Crap in crap out, stellar recordings in u get stellar out.
This is what I am looking for and I have found it with this device.

The internal linestage (iFi doesnt call this an amp..but it is)...is not as great as some other TOTL amps but
very close IMO...so it could be "the" amp for you depending on your music and headphone sensitivity.

For me I have compared the internal linestage to feeding the dac to my PassLabs HPA-1, ACP +, Schiit Jotenheim 2, Lyr 3 and a few other amps...I dont have the iCan Pro amp.....and IMO this is the way to go...

Of the internal tube selections I like the "tube" better than the "tube +" selection...personal taste.
The tube part is really exceptional as well...

The performance from this dac to the HPA-1 is as good as it gets/ Period...just lovely with both sets of cans.
You get lost in the music and this IMO is what its all about.

You can read all the reviews about the technicalities, speeds and feeds, specs, filter tech etc...but for me being able to easily dial in something and hear with my own ears the +/- 's is this Pro DSD strongest traint.

Is is expensive. YES it is....

Is it worth it? You can get great sound for less. But IMO this dac/amp is in a league all its own with all the various attributes.

So the real thing here is I have started selling a lot of stuff that is good but not needed anymore...this little swiss army knife of
an audio tool is just what the doctor ordered!

If I sell enough I just might be tempted to buy the iCan Pro amp!!

My hats off to iFi for a wonderful product....

Alex


----------



## adydula

Here is what I use for balanced for that 4.4 mm jack
Sturdy, stiff just be careful not to whack it hard!!


----------



## iFi audio

adydula said:


> Here is what I use for balanced for that 4.4 mm jack
> Sturdy, stiff just be careful not to whack it hard!!


Ulala, I fancy that! If I may ask, is it your own DIY effort? Looks really good!



adydula said:


> Well its day 2 with this neat little "box" full of wonderful engineering and technology for sure....
> Why did I buy this?
> Its expensive, small and has lots of function and features buried inside it.
> My father told me if you want something good then go to a store that specifically deals in that item your interested in.
> ...



Excellent stuff, I'm very happy that you like the product so much. I't is a Swiss Army knife indeed!


----------



## adydula (Aug 12, 2021)

I usually build my own cables, Canare L4E6s and Mogami 2534, but I must not tell a lie here, I bought this one.
$25 + shipping.


----------



## adydula

Today I am testing with my other amps to see if Iike what I hear or do I sell more stuff ?

Just using the dac out.


----------



## Gene4797

Hello , yesterday night my pro idsd start to make electric noise , after screen got of  , in the end  disappear sound, I tried turned off and on but it doesn’t help, my unit 3 months old , I’m very disappointed


----------



## iFi audio

Gene4797 said:


> Hello , yesterday night my pro idsd start to make electric noise , after screen got of , in the end disappear sound, I tried turned off and on but it doesn’t help, my unit 3 months old , I’m very disappointed



I'm sorry to hear that. Please contact your original place of purchase and the warrnty should cover this. You might wat to also let us know about the issue here: https://support.ifi-audio.com


----------



## Gene4797

iFi audio said:


> I'm sorry to hear that. Please contact your original place of purchase and the warrnty should cover this. You might wat to also let us know about the issue here: https://support.ifi-audio.com


Thank you, I already open ticket and send email to seller


----------



## iFi audio

Gene4797 said:


> Thank you, I already open ticket and send email to seller



Excellent. If there are any issues, please drop me a PM here and I'll do my best to help you out


----------



## adydula

Standing behind a product when something goes wrong...is the sign of good customer support....

Alex


----------



## iFi audio

adydula said:


> Standing behind a product when something goes wrong...is the sign of good customer support....



Thanks! Suffice it to say, we've been doing this for years on a daily basis here on HF


----------



## adydula (Aug 13, 2021)

I have been testing with HD 650's and the iFi Pro DSD and made this observation.

With higher impedance cans like the 650's....driving them from the SE or 4.4 mm balanced outputs its decent but a tad on the warm side.
Sending the DAC output to my HPA-1 amp the sound is indeed "better" to me.
More sharp, crisp and open....more clarity...

Its close to being perfect IMO to my ears..with good recordings its very very TOTL listening....even with low cost HD 650's
Using the D8000 Pros in this configuration its right up there with the best.
The Dac part is absolutely superb.

So I think even though I have a very, very good setup I will try to audition a iCan Pro amp to compare with my HPA-1.

Alex

Edit: Please dont take this as a negative thing. If you didnt have other stuff to try and only had the iFI Pro DSD its internal linestage
with its balanced output is still very, very good its like differing tastes. It will drive high impedance cans very very loud.
Its like the dac out to my amp is a 10. The balanced out from the Pro DSD is a 9.5 !
This is a subjective opinion for sure.


----------



## iFi audio

adydula said:


> I have been testing with HD 650's and the iFi Pro DSD and made this observation.
> 
> With higher impedance cans like the 650's....driving them from the SE or 4.4 mm balanced outputs its decent but a tad on the warm side.
> Sending the DAC output to my HPA-1 amp the sound is indeed "better" to me.
> ...



All good! Pro iDSD was designed to do multiple things. Instead a separate headphone circuit it relies on its line-driver that's powerful enough to drive many cans. It's all OK if using Pro iDSD with a standalone headphone amp gets you better results 

Besides, Pass Lab HPA-1 is said to be an outstanding product


----------



## adydula

It is.

I have my eye on the iCan Pro amp....have to try it out with your dac and see how well it stacks up to my HPA-1 and Bryston BH-1 and several other amps here.
Your dac is indeed excellent.


----------



## Fugue

Mine arrived today and it sounds glorious! Way better than the DAC in my McIntosh MA9000 amp or Oppo205--richer, more detailed, and more spacious. I'm using the GTO filter and DSD1024 remastering.  Now, if it doesn't lock up like my previous one did, I'll be a happy camper! I did, however, hear something rattling around inside as I took it out of the box. I hope it's a "just" a loose screw and not a component! Oh, for the record, I mainly listen to classical music.


----------



## adydula

It may be the little glass part that allows u to see the orange tube glow, mine is slightly loose and if you shake it it moves slightly in its holder...not shake but you can feel it moving just by touching it slightly...a loose fit.


----------



## Fugue

No, the lens is tight--it's definitely inside.


----------



## Fugue

Is it supposed to remember the filter and remastering settings after the power is turned off? Mine doesn't. Not a big deal...more of a first world problem.


----------



## iFi audio (Aug 15, 2021)

adydula said:


> I have my eye on the iCan Pro amp....have to try it out with your dac and see how well it stacks up to my HPA-1 and Bryston BH-1 and several other amps here.
> Your dac is indeed excellent.


I'm not sure about sound quality, but Pro iCAN would provide some heavy functionality, that's for sure.


Fugue said:


> Is it supposed to remember the filter and remastering settings after the power is turned off? Mine doesn't. Not a big deal...more of a first world problem.


I believe it resets just like yours, but I'd have to double-check that.


----------



## Sphere 57

Fugue said:


> Is it supposed to remember the filter and remastering settings after the power is turned off? Mine doesn't. Not a big deal...more of a first world problem.


Mine remembers those settings. I have had a few annoying glitches, but that's not one I've seen so far


----------



## adydula

Just checked here and my unit does remember the settings for volume, and the mode I was in.


----------



## iFi audio

adydula said:


> Just checked here and my unit does remember the settings for volume, and the mode I was in.





Sphere 57 said:


> Mine remembers those settings. I have had a few annoying glitches, but that's not one I've seen so far



Can you folks list your firmware versions please? This would help in figuring out what's what, thanks!


----------



## adydula

How do we check for the firmware version?

Alex


----------



## adydula

2.08
Figured it out...


----------



## iFi audio

adydula said:


> 2.08
> Figured it out...



Yup, thanks!


----------



## Fugue (Aug 15, 2021)

adydula said:


> 2.08
> Figured it out...


I just installed 2.08--still doesn't remember the settings.


----------



## adydula

Ha!

While powering up press and hold the input selection knob in and you will see the firmware level displayed in the round display.
Bottom right side...

Alex


----------



## adydula

iFi audio said:


> Yup, thanks!


Question for iFI...

I assume the tube circuitry in the Pro DSD is for the linestage output only and if your using the dac out to a separate amp there is no tube circuity 
involved?

To get the tube and tube + you have to be using the internal linestage output via the headphone jacks ?

Alex


----------



## iFi audio

adydula said:


> I assume the tube circuitry in the Pro DSD is for the linestage output only and if your using the dac out to a separate amp there is no tube circuity
> involved?



Pro iDSD engages tubes in all cases if you select them on its front panel. In that case Pro iDSD will have tubes engaged even if it's used solely as a DAC (with its volume control bypassed).



adydula said:


> To get the tube and tube + you have to be using the internal linestage output via the headphone jacks ?



As above, Tube/Tube+ modes apply to evey output and even if volume control is bypassed.


----------



## adydula

Well this is really inere


iFi audio said:


> Pro iDSD engages tubes in all cases if you select them on its front panel. In that case Pro iDSD will have tubes engaged even if it's used solely as a DAC (with its volume control bypassed).
> 
> 
> 
> As above, Tube/Tube+ modes apply to evey output and even if volume control is bypassed.


Well this is very interesting.

So even if I use the Pro DSD as a DAC only and feed my external amp via balanced or SE outs on the back I will still get the flavor from the tubes in the dac output?? This to me doesnt sound correct??

Then if I have a ifi CAN PRO and choose the tube on it as well as on the DSD do I get double tubing???

Help!
Alex


----------



## Fugue

Do you have any updates on the settings not being memorized? It seems odd that some units do and some don't. Also, after I updated the firmware to 2.08, I did not see the note in the instructions to unplug the DAC from the computer before turning it off. Is that problematic? Should I reinstall the firmware?


----------



## adydula

I leave my Pro DSD usn connected to my pc all the time and dont disconnect it at all ?

What am I missing here?

Alex


----------



## iFi audio

adydula said:


> So even if I use the Pro DSD as a DAC only and feed my external amp via balanced or SE outs on the back I will still get the flavor from the tubes in the dac output?? This to me doesnt sound correct??



Yes, as long as you will have modes Tube or Tube+ engaged. If you'd like to use Pro iDSD as a transistor device without tubes, then setting it in the solid-state mode will do just that 

Please think of tubes and transistors in Pro iDSD as a part of its output stage that always is engaged, but it can have active either tubes or transistors and you decide which one is it


----------



## adydula

iFi audio said:


> Yes, as long as you will have modes Tube or Tube+ engaged. If you'd like to use Pro iDSD as a transistor device without tubes, then setting it in the solid-state mode will do just that
> 
> Please think of tubes and transistors in Pro iDSD as a part of its output stage that always is engaged, but it can have active either tubes or transistors and you decide which one is it


So when I think of a dac its mostly solid state, very few tube dacs out here...so we now have a tube and a SS dac of sorts with the Pro DSD ?


----------



## iFi audio

adydula said:


> tube and a SS dac of sorts with the Pro DSD ?



Yes, and the fact that you can switch between tubes and transistors is Pro iDSD's most unique functionality. It's all in the manual


----------



## adydula (Aug 16, 2021)

iFi audio said:


> Yes, and the fact that you can switch between tubes and transistors is Pro iDSD's most unique functionality. It's all in the manual


Understand this, but the dac itself is SS its just the analog out gets the tube influence ?
So this would make me think the dac analog outputs are not inline with the linestage and no tube stuff...only the linestage outputs via the headphone jacks
on the front panel...this makes more sense to me ?


----------



## iFi audio

adydula said:


> Understand this, but the dac itself is SS its just the analog out gets the tube influence ?



The circuit after our DAC chips features both tubes and transistors. You can have engaged either tubes or transistors and the switch on the front panel determines that. I can't explain this any simpler 



adydula said:


> So this would make me think the dac analog outputs are not inline with the linestage


Please understand that Pro iDSD's linestage circuit and output circuit are the same thing (...that features selectable tubes and transistors), and the only difference between them is volume control that's either engaged or bypassed.


----------



## adydula

iFi audio said:


> The circuit after our DAC chips features both tubes and transistors. You can have engaged either tubes or transistors and the switch on the front panel determines that. I can't explain this any simpler
> 
> 
> Please understand that Pro iDSD's linestage circuit and output circuit are the same thing (...that features selectable tubes and transistors), and the only difference between them is volume control that's either engaged or bypassed.


Ok so the dac output goes into the linestage which can be either transistors or tubes....this output is what feeds the headphone jack outputs, front panel AND feeds
the analog outputs...so this indeed has one of two switchable flavors....SS or tube.

Clever for sure!!

I have a iFi Ican Pro on order!! 2-3 weeks they tell me!
Alex

Oh another question: What would you call your dac ? A delta sigma or multibit ?


----------



## domiji

Hello @iFi audio 

does the Ethernet Port on the iDSD Pro also use Galvanic Isolation?

Thanks for your help


----------



## adydula

Listening this morning with HD 650's from the 4.4mm balanced output of the Pro DSD using a small short 4.4 mm to XLR adapter cable.
The experience is stunning.

Using the DSD 1024 + GTO filter + Solid State.

Excellent....Hanne Boel and "After Midnight"....sounds like a European Tina Turner!!
What an awesome female singer !

Alex


----------



## adydula (Aug 17, 2021)

iFi audio said:


> The circuit after our DAC chips features both tubes and transistors. You can have engaged either tubes or transistors and the switch on the front panel determines that. I can't explain this any simpler
> 
> 
> Please understand that Pro iDSD's linestage circuit and output circuit are the same thing (...that features selectable tubes and transistors), and the only difference between them is volume control that's either engaged or bypassed.


Ok,

I want to get this out in the open.
Some folks have stated that the iFI ICAN PRO is now "discontinued".
Several websites, like Audio46, Crutchfield, Adorama, AudioAdvice are still advertising on their sites.
Most except for Crutchfield (limited stock warning) state 7-14 days availability or 2-4 weeks.
I sent a note to iFI and got a response but would like this to be clarified.

I have one on order at one of the above sites and got no indication of not being able to get one?

So is the iCan Pro discontinued or not? Its still on the iFi website as their TOTL amp.

I would hate to get an amp and then find out that a newer one is about to be announced.

I do understand new things will come out over time but dont want to get caught totally unaware of this.

Thanks for understanding!
Alex


----------



## Ficcion2 (Aug 17, 2021)

adydula said:


> Ok,
> 
> I want to get this out in the open.
> Some folks have stated that the iFI ICAN PRO is now "discontinued".
> ...



There are rumors of a new Pro Can coming out this fall according to some members who've inquired with their dealers.

iFi neither confirmed nor denied it. They kinda did the same thing when the Diablo was leaked but denied the Micro BL would be replaced.

I would wait it out if I were you since a lot of these iFi leaks end up being true.

Sorry for all the editing. I thought I was on the wrong thread

PS not bashing iFi as I bought the Diablo on release and have been looking forward to an upgrade to my Zen Can.


----------



## Ficcion2 (Aug 17, 2021)

Double post. Sorry.


----------



## adydula

Well the existing Pro Can is an excellent unit for sure.
That said, time moves on and we cant fault iFi for coming out with new products.
If this is true and a new Pro Can is coming out this fall I would cancel my order and wait.
But the new from factor might or might not match the existing Pro DSD I just purchased.
So waiting on a reply from the iFi guy who frequents this discussion.
I know he cant really spill the beans but a hint here or there would be appreciated!

Alex


----------



## adydula

I just spoke to the dealer I had my Pro Can on order and queried him. He told me they cant get any.
Discontinued.
So my order was cancelled.
So we now have to wait and see what iFi comes out with.

Alex


----------



## dcguy73 (Aug 17, 2021)

adydula said:


> I just spoke to the dealer I had my Pro Can on order and queried him. He told me they cant get any.
> Discontinued.
> So my order was cancelled.
> So we now have to wait and see what iFi comes out with.
> ...


Finally! Some confirmation that iFi is wrapping up the Pro series, at least version 1. Because they haven’t been forthcoming with any additional updates for the iDSD Pro, it’s probably not advisable to buy any new iDSD Pros from here on out at full list price.


----------



## Fugue

I decided to return mine. Two problematic ones in a row is a bit much for me.


----------



## adydula

iFi audio said:


> Yes, as long as you will have modes Tube or Tube+ engaged. If you'd like to use Pro iDSD as a transistor device without tubes, then setting it in the solid-state mode will do just that
> 
> Please think of tubes and transistors in Pro iDSD as a part of its output stage that always is engaged, but it can have active either tubes or transistors and you decide which one is it


Whats bugging me and others is the silence from iFI at the moment.
I would hope they would say yes the Pro iCan is discontinued but still supported and that we cannot comment on new unannounced stuff.
But add..."please dont worry guys/gals we are working on new stuff in this space, stay tuned ! "

or something positive like this.

I am now looking at other amps....

Alex


----------



## adydula

Well while we all are waiting to see what iFI is going to do with the iCan Pro....I want to say that my Pro DSD has been
running spectacularly..

I just started to try the tube function and with the HD650's this am in PCM BP+ mode its one of the best experiences with the Senn HD 650's...absolutely superb. No need for a separate amp here at all! Using the balanced output  4.4mm jack with an adapter cable to 4 pin xlr...


----------



## iFi audio

adydula said:


> I would hate to get an amp and then find out that a newer one is about to be announced.



Although it's possible that Pro iCAN stock at our distributors and retailsers is running low, I have no news about its replacement. 



domiji said:


> does the Ethernet Port on the iDSD Pro also use Galvanic Isolation?



RJ45 ports are galvanically isolated by default AFAIK.


----------



## adydula

iFi audio said:


> Although it's possible that Pro iCAN stock at our distributors and retailsers is running low, I have no news about its replacement.
> 
> 
> 
> RJ45 ports are galvanically isolated by default AFAIK.


LOL!

Possible that stocks are running low....well yes they are!! Its a great amp and dealers are telling us its discontinued.
This is fine....

But hey give us a hint eh!

And why is this still being advertised as a TOTL amp on your website??

Alex


----------



## iFi audio

adydula said:


> And why is this still being advertised as a TOTL amp on your website??



Because it still is one. Last time I checked we didn't have anything better


----------



## adydula

LOL
Then if it is one.
Why cant dealers get them??
Hmmmm

Ok I will stop bugging you...and wait for Sept.
I love the ifi PRO DSD i have!!
Its superb!


----------



## iFi audio

adydula said:


> Why cant dealers get them??



We're running low on Pro iCANs and not many of them are left, That's the reason.


----------



## adydula

@iFi audio 

So  I have to ask this one last question....
Are you making any more ?

:>)


----------



## iFi audio

adydula said:


> Are you making any more ?



I have no idea. This info is above my paygrade


----------



## adydula

iFi audio said:


> I have no idea. This info is above my paygrade


Ok so here is a question for you....

In the Pro DSD the vacuum tubes...some folks like to try different tubes....does this void the warranty?
Also if for some reason a tube goes bad....how does one get this fixed...
Does the unit have to be sent in for service or can I swap out a tube if needed ?

Thanks
Alex


----------



## iFi audio

adydula said:


> n the Pro DSD the vacuum tubes...some folks like to try different tubes....does this void the warranty?



Yes, since opening a product voids warranty. 



adydula said:


> Also if for some reason a tube goes bad....how does one get this fixed...





adydula said:


> Does the unit have to be sent in for service or can I swap out a tube if needed ?



In both these cases it would be good to write us a mail or open up a ticket at our support platform, and move from there.


----------



## Gene4797

iFi audio said:


> Thanks Andrew
> 
> I don't have a reply from our HQ just yet, but once it arrives I'll put it in here and will let you know.


Hello, I like to ask you, how long usually takes warranty service, I sent unit last Wednesday and     IFI office received last Thursday morning, when I should receive email or unit back, because on IFI site says, should take 2 days after receiving? 
Thank you


----------



## adydula (Aug 25, 2021)

Tommy Emmanuel playing "Michelle" from his LIVE cd's.....with the Pro DSD as a dac to an external Schiit Lyr 3 and D8000 Pro's...
Its as good as it gets. Period. That good.
DSD 1024 with TA filter....

Perfect tone....wonderful depth of sound.....

:>)


----------



## iFi audio

Gene4797 said:


> Hello, I like to ask you, how long usually takes warranty service, I sent unit last Wednesday and     IFI office received last Thursday morning, when I should receive email or unit back, because on IFI site says, should take 2 days after receiving?
> Thank you



Have you tried contacting that office directly? Or was this done via our support system and you have a ticket number?


----------



## marcus2704

Would you consider that the IFI iPro iDSD is overkill for Fostex TH900 MK2, and that it is suited for more TOTL headphones?


----------



## adydula

marcus2704 said:


> Would you consider that the IFI iPro iDSD is overkill for Fostex TH900 MK2, and that it is suited for more TOTL headphones?


The dac portion of it is world class...and would last you for years....the amp will drive 95% of all headphones very well...
Its like a long term investment....but yes its pricey....

And when you change over to different headphones you already have a great base to work from...


----------



## vonBaron

Pro IDSD alone is too weak (its amp) for TOTL HP.


----------



## marcus2704

Thanks for the replies.   I have a unit arriving today so look forward to trying it out.   Any tips / advice to get me started?.


----------



## adydula

vonBaron said:


> Pro IDSD alone is too weak (its amp) for TOTL HP.


Totally disagree with this statement.
Balanced has 4 watts at 16 ohms and 1.5 watts higher up the impedance scale.....

There are many 'TOTL" cans that can run of the amp very, very well....Final Audio D8000 Pros...etc..

If your speaking to the 1 - 2 cans like Susvaras yes it may not be to your liking, but with the highest gain settings it still will drive them very loud. Would it be perfect? Maybe not. 

The gist of this is what is a TOTL headphone for "YOU" .....For many its headphones other than a Susvara or Abyss 1266....there are tons of great headphones lesser in price and sensitivity that would work very well with the linestage in the pro dsd....ZMF Veritas, HD 8XX, Focals etc...


----------



## vonBaron (Sep 5, 2021)

Im not talking about power...
My D8000 was sound way better with Pro ICan + Pro IDSD than IDSD alone, well any other HP sound better with Pro ICan.
For me HP out in Pro IDSD is nice addon nothing more.


----------



## marcus2704

adydula said:


> Totally disagree with this statement.
> Balanced has 4 watts at 16 ohms and 1.5 watts higher up the impedance scale.....
> 
> There are many 'TOTL" cans that can run of the amp very, very well....Final Audio D8000 Pros...etc..
> ...



I have owned Susvara's, AB1266 TC Phi and Diana Phi and yet remain on the headphone merry-go-round as inevitably after time I find something that is not to my satisfaction.  Currently enjoying the Fostex and its gorgeous low-end, as to how long that will last, who knows..!   

What I am most interested in today is to see what the IFI Pro iDSD gives me over the IFI Diablo which I already own.


----------



## adydula

@vonBaron Totally understand and I agree...I have the same experiences here as well...but the linestage isnt that bad at all..
For me when I use it its with the balanced 4.4mm output and its ok.

For serious listening I do us an external amp and its indeed "better" how much, well thats always a subjective thing for sure. We all hear differently.

IMO the dac in this unit is very, very good...if iFi just made a sepearte dac of this caliber I would have bought that...but having a pre-amp out with the Pro DSD allows me
to use my other TOTL amps so its still good here...

All the best!
Alex


----------



## adydula

marcus2704 said:


> I have owned Susvara's, AB1266 TC Phi and Diana Phi and yet remain on the headphone merry-go-round as inevitably after time I find something that is not to my satisfaction.  Currently enjoying the Fostex and its gorgeous low-end, as to how long that will last, who knows..!
> 
> What I am most interested in today is to see what the IFI Pro iDSD gives me over the IFI Diablo which I already own.


LOL! AS long as you dont try other TOTL cans your fine!!

:>)


----------



## marcus2704 (Sep 5, 2021)

Well so far I am satisfied that I will be keeping this over the Diablo, there is a detectable and marked improvement in sound quality over the Diablo (which is by no means in itself bad) and I am not for a moment saying its 3 x the sound quality of the Diablo, but such is the law of diminishing returns in this hobby that even a minor improvement can end up costing thousands.  However given I see this as my keeper DAC/Amp long term I don't mind so much paying for it now whilst I can and I expect it will be a good match for whatever headphones are fed to it in the future.

Note re the filters, I am not sure if its my ears but I genuinely cant detect a difference between them, I tend to just stick it on Bit Perfect and leave it at that.

One thing I dont like, is the foam base which means it easily slides around with any cable movement.   Why not just use some simple rubber feet that at least keep it stay put?


----------



## Sphere 57

marcus2704 said:


> Well so far I am satisfied that I will be keeping this over the Diablo, there is a detectable and marked improvement in sound quality over the Diablo (which is by no means in itself bad) and I am not for a moment saying its 3 x the sound quality of the Diablo, but such is the law of diminishing returns in this hobby that even a minor improvement can end up costing thousands.  However given I see this as my keeper DAC/Amp long term I don't mind so much paying for it now whilst I can and I expect it will be a good match for whatever headphones are fed to it in the future.
> 
> Note re the filters, I am not sure if its my ears but I genuinely cant detect a difference between them, I tend to just stick it on Bit Perfect and leave it at that.
> 
> One thing I dont like, is the foam base which means it easily slides around with any cable movement.   Why not just use some simple rubber feet that at least keep it stay put?


Yes the foam base sucks (or doesn't suck enough?), please don't use it on future products iFi.


----------



## adydula

Another awesome pairing!


----------



## Sebastien Chiu

adydula said:


> Another awesome pairing!



Crazy set-up. What's that beast of an amp?


----------



## adydula (Sep 5, 2021)

Seb, @Sebastien Chiu 

Its a PassLabs HPA-1 since 2016...Class A. 3.5 watts RMS pre ch.
$3500 retail
One of the best dedicated headhone amps ever a classic for sure.

https://www.passlabs.com/products/hpa-1/

Which is why I "was" looking for the iCan Pro to test against it...but am waiting here patiently....

Alex


----------



## iFi audio

Just to clarify, Pro iDSD's headphone out wasn't meant to be above Pro iCAN or even match it with difficult loads. We consider the latter as a natural upgrade


----------



## adydula

Always re-arranging!


----------



## iFi audio

adydula said:


> Always re-arranging!



You're quite good at that 

I dig how cleanly everything looks like!


----------



## adydula

iFi audio said:


> You're quite good at that
> 
> I dig how cleanly everything looks like!


It might look even better soon ????

:>)


----------



## Baten

adydula said:


> Always re-arranging!


What's the green board...?


----------



## adydula

Aha!

Its Nelson Pass's ACP + Headphone amp / pre-amp.
Class A.

https://diyaudiostore.com/products/acp-amp-camp-pre-amp
https://www.firstwatt.com/pdf/art_acp.pdf
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/pass-labs/344836-amp-camp-pre-headphone-amp-acp.html

A PassLabs amp for $199!!

Alex


----------



## iFi audio

adydula said:


> A PassLabs amp for $199!!



 Quite crazy indeed. I reckon that you had to bild it yourself? If so, a very nice work!


----------



## adydula

iFi audio said:


> Quite crazy indeed. I reckon that you had to bild it yourself? If so, a very nice work!


I have been building amps for 40 years and more!!
Its in my DNA....not that I dont appreciate other amps..diy and commercial!


----------



## iFi audio

adydula said:


> I have been building amps for 40 years and more!!
> Its in my DNA....not that I dont appreciate other amps..diy and commercial!



Fair enough 

I'll address your PM shortly!


----------



## adydula




----------



## adydula (Sep 7, 2021)

When I said I have had over 30+ amps here in the past few years I really meant it!!

LOL!!

Life is short!!
Enjoy the music!
Alex


----------



## adydula

I just wired up a balanced cable using Mogami cable for my D8000 Pros so I could test the balanced out from the Pro DSD...
Its really pretty decent....seriously nice...

Alex


----------



## iFi audio

adydula said:


> When I said I have had over 30+ amps here in the past few years I really meant it!!



OK, now we believe you


----------



## adydula

What a special treat, this evening we are being entertained by some live performance of a great jazz group in the USA called "Spyrogyra" from Buffalo New York, thats in upstate New York and no where near NYC!! LOL.

I have seen this band in person 5 times over the years and with the new balanced cable and the Pro DSD in TUBE mode, DSD 1024 and BP+ mode its a solid nice 10 experience.

Your going to be hard pressed to convince me that another amp would make this experience "alot" better.....maybe on the edges but this is really a stellar linestage "amp".

I have sold most of my tube amps, just too soft, warm etc and my hard edged headphones have left the stage here....lol

The Tube part of the pro DSD is pretty decent for a touch of that tube magic....

Totally enjoying this little "box"....


----------



## Ross Kyle

adydula said:


> What a special treat, this evening we are being entertained by some live performance of a great jazz group in the USA called "Spyrogyra" from Buffalo New York, thats in upstate New York and no where near NYC!! LOL.
> 
> I have seen this band in person 5 times over the years and with the new balanced cable and the Pro DSD in TUBE mode, DSD 1024 and BP+ mode its a solid nice 10 experience.
> 
> ...


try it with up sampled DSD from HQ player that’s a whole different ball park again haha , i do enjoy it’s own 1024one for when i have to use the AES and can’t USB from Pi


----------



## adydula

Ross Kyle said:


> try it with up sampled DSD from HQ player that’s a whole different ball park again haha , i do enjoy it’s own 1024one for when i have to use the AES and can’t USB from Pi


Thanks Ross...I am in audiophile heaven right now....I can get over how nice the tube section is with the dac and these cans...its sooooooo Sweet!
I have been out to native DSD site and listened to some great DSD stuff...from Denmark so Sweet as well...


----------



## Ross Kyle

adydula said:


> Thanks Ross...I am in audiophile heaven right now....I can get over how nice the tube section is with the dac and these cans...its sooooooo Sweet!
> I have been out to native DSD site and listened to some great DSD stuff...from Denmark so Sweet as well...


once it’s warranty is out you can tube swap but that’s a rabbit whole for a different day for yourself hahah


----------



## adydula

I have done lots of NOS tube diving and $$$$. Sold all my tube amps....and most of the tubes as well...its a never ending hole!!
Very content with this unit and sevearal other amps...


----------



## iFi audio

Ross Kyle said:


> try it with up sampled DSD from HQ player



Wouldn't hurt to try it out, yes


----------



## VladislavLysov

Hi folks. Need your suggestion  I'm choosing between Hugo 2 and ifi idsd pro for my next upgrade for the current ifi micro Black Label + HD800s. I'm looking for the used one, so the price ~1.8k. Want to use it for my next Utopias and LCD (or any others planar magnetic) headphones. By the way - I don't need portability as Hugo provided or a lot of features from ifi idsd pro like music streaming. Apart from that -I missed the bass, depth and dynamic with my current setup (I really enjoyed LCD-2, but soundstage of HD800S is sooooo way better!).


----------



## Hoegaardener70

VladislavLysov said:


> Hi folks. Need your suggestion  I'm choosing between Hugo 2 and ifi idsd pro for my next upgrade for the current ifi micro Black Label + HD800s. I'm looking for the used one, so the price ~1.8k. Want to use it for my next Utopias and LCD (or any others planar magnetic) headphones. By the way - I don't need portability as Hugo provided or a lot of features from ifi idsd pro like music streaming. Apart from that -I missed the bass, depth and dynamic with my current setup (I really enjoyed LCD-2, but soundstage of HD800S is sooooo way better!).


I owned the Hugo2 and still own the ifi iDSD Pro, so from that you can already see my preference at least for the Utopia. Whereas the H2 is super clean and transparent, the iDSD is just more fun and pleasant to listen to, at least this is what I found in comparison. The H2 USB input is also  flimsy with its micro (?) USB plug.


----------



## Hoegaardener70

Hi folks, I need your advice on using the ifi Pro iCan as a speaker amp. I cannot find much online and I hope you can help me out. I must admit I no zero about speakers, but I am planning to use the Pro iCan with bookshelf speakers (specs as below). Would this work? And would I connect via the balanced speaker 3pin XLR to the speaker's banana plug?  Thanks for the help!!! 

Here the specs: 


90dB (2.83V/1m)Power Handling25 - 200 Watts RMSCrossover Frequencies450Hz, 3.5kHzImpedance4 Ohms


----------



## VladislavLysov

Hoegaardener70 said:


> I owned the Hugo2 and still own the ifi iDSD Pro, so from that you can already see my preference at least for the Utopia. Whereas the H2 is super clean and transparent, the iDSD is just more fun and pleasant to listen to, at least this is what I found in comparison. The H2 USB input is also  flimsy with its micro (?) USB plug.


Thanks! So you vote more for ifi than hugo 2 in this case (if I need to keep only 1 DAC/AMP)? I'm also considering Naim Uniti Atom for a little bit more $, but it's 2019 (as hugo 2 and ifi also) and doesn't have balanced headphone output + I don't need to have all these features, just want to concentrate on the sound?


----------



## JaquesGelee (Sep 9, 2021)

Hoegaardener70 said:


> Hi folks, I need your advice on using the ifi Pro iCan as a speaker amp. I cannot find much online and I hope you can help me out. I must admit I no zero about speakers, but I am planning to use the Pro iCan with bookshelf speakers (specs as below). Would this work? And would I connect via the balanced speaker 3pin XLR to the speaker's banana plug?  Thanks for the help!!!
> 
> Here the specs:
> 
> ...


Hey,

you need active (seperate amp in each speaker) or even powered speakers (one amp a pair) for what you would like to do. 

Cheers


----------



## Ross Kyle

Hoegaardener70 said:


> Hi folks, I need your advice on using the ifi Pro iCan as a speaker amp. I cannot find much online and I hope you can help me out. I must admit I no zero about speakers, but I am planning to use the Pro iCan with bookshelf speakers (specs as below). Would this work? And would I connect via the balanced speaker 3pin XLR to the speaker's banana plug?  Thanks for the help!!!
> 
> Here the specs:
> 
> ...


Ican is a headphone amplifier , it can also act as a preamplifier for 1) Active Speakers san they have RCA/ XLRs in 2) A preamp for a speaker amp , this is what i do myself with mine , again you’d be xlr / rca out from ican into xlr / rca of speaker amp then connect the passive speakers into Speaker taps


----------



## Ross Kyle

iFi audio said:


> Wouldn't hurt to try it out, yes



Better to take filters on to a beefy PC for when i want ultimate listening hehe


----------



## iFi audio

Hoegaardener70 said:


> Hi folks, I need your advice on using the ifi Pro iCan as a speaker amp.



Pro iCAN is no speaker amp that would drive passive speakers. Active monitors however are a different thing 

What kind of spekers would you like to use with it?



Ross Kyle said:


> Better to take filters on to a beefy PC for when i want ultimate listening hehe



True, but FPGAs can do it really good too 



VladislavLysov said:


> Hi folks. Need your suggestion  I'm choosing between Hugo 2 and ifi idsd pro for my next upgrade for the current ifi micro Black Label + HD800s. I'm looking for the used one, so the price ~1.8k. Want to use it for my next Utopias and LCD (or any others planar magnetic) headphones. By the way - I don't need portability as Hugo provided or a lot of features from ifi idsd pro like music streaming. Apart from that -I missed the bass, depth and dynamic with my current setup (I really enjoyed LCD-2, but soundstage of HD800S is sooooo way better!).



Pro iDSD is loaded with features and that's one of the best things about it. If flexibility and lots of dials to work on are your things, it covers these needs rather well


----------



## alekc

Ross Kyle said:


> Ican is a headphone amplifier , it can also act as a preamplifier for 1) Active Speakers san they have RCA/ XLRs in 2) A preamp for a speaker amp , this is what i do myself with mine , again you’d be xlr / rca out from ican into xlr / rca of speaker amp then connect the passive speakers into Speaker taps


@Hoegaardener70 One thing to remember, that is clearly stated at the end of iCan manual: the Pro iCAN should be used either as preamplifier or headphone amplifier, as generally a mixed use setup is not recommended. For me this is one of biggest drawbacks of otherwise great amp.


----------



## JaquesGelee (Sep 9, 2021)

alekc said:


> @Hoegaardener70 One thing to remember, that is clearly stated at the end of iCan manual: the Pro iCAN should be used either as preamplifier or headphone amplifier, as generally a mixed use setup is not recommended. For me this is one of biggest drawbacks of otherwise great amp.


That´s right about the manual note. But...do you listen to headphones while using speakers? 
So, it is still a hpa with preamp option for active/ powered speakers.


----------



## alekc

JaquesGelee said:


> That´s right about the manual note. But...do you listen to headphones while using speakers?
> So, it is still a hpa with preamp option for active/ powered speakers.


Good point. However I would prefer a switch to control outputs.


----------



## Hoegaardener70

JaquesGelee said:


> you need active (seperate amp in each speaker) or even powered speakers (one amp a pair) for what you would like to do.





Ross Kyle said:


> Ican is a headphone amplifier , it can also act as a preamplifier for 1) Active Speakers san they have RCA/ XLRs in 2) A preamp for a speaker amp , this is what i do myself with mine , again you’d be xlr / rca out from ican into xlr / rca of speaker amp then connect the passive speakers into Speaker taps





iFi audio said:


> Pro iCAN is no speaker amp that would drive passive speakers. Active monitors however are a different thing
> What kind of spekers would you like to use with it?


Thanks for all of your replies and clarifications. So, active speakers it will be. Initially I had settled for JBL L100, but besides needing an additional amp they are way too heavy for my scenario anyway. Oh, and sorry I accidently posted in the iDSD thread instead of iCan.


----------



## iFi audio

Hoegaardener70 said:


> Thanks for all of your replies and clarifications. So, active speakers it will be. Initially I had settled for JBL L100, but besides needing an additional amp they are way too heavy for my scenario anyway. Oh, and sorry I accidently posted in the iDSD thread instead of iCan.



All good and it's all OK posting iFi stuff wherever 

I'm happy to know that you know your next audio steps. Best of luck


----------



## adydula

Highly recommen the iFi Ican Pro and the iFi Pro DSD....the dac is superb.


----------



## dcguy73 (Sep 12, 2021)

For my main listening rig, I have a "high end" setup now of the Denafrips Gaia, Terminator Plus, and Pathos Acoustics InEar headphone amp that excel at classical, jazz, and anything hi-res. I've moved my iCan Pro and iDSD Pro to the home office, and I sometimes find myself in the office late at night listening to Day Wave on the iFi combo.  While the main setup is technically superior, with a lot higher resolution and intensity, the iFi set retains a certain level of fun I haven't been able to achieve in the main setup -- especially when streaming to the iDSD via Ethernet or using the iDSD's built-in micro-SD Card reader. The main setup is kind of like going to and attending a live performance versus the iFi setup, which is more like watching the live performance on your home theater system in your living room alone at home in a pair of worn pajamas.


----------



## iFi audio

dcguy73 said:


> For my main listening rig, I have a "high end" setup now of the Denafrips Gaia, Terminator Plus, and Pathos Acoustics InEar headphone amp that excel at classical, jazz, and anything hi-res. I've moved my iCan Pro and iDSD Pro to the home office, and I sometimes find myself in the office late at night listening to Day Wave on the iFi combo. While the main setup is technically superior, with a lot higher resolution and intensity, the iFi set retains a certain level of fun I haven't been able to achieve in the main setup -- especially when streaming to the iDSD via Ethernet or using the iDSD's built-in micro-SD Card reader. The main setup is kind of like going to and attending a live performance versus the iFi setup, which is more like watching the live performance on your home theater system in your living room alone at home in a pair of worn pajamas.



Thanks for your feedback and I love the pajama analogy 

Considering the price of your main setup, still having fun with our more affordable products is a win-win for you and us too


----------



## JaquesGelee

dcguy73 said:


> ....or using the iDSD's built-in micro-SD Card reader.  ...


How do you get it to work? I tested several cards, formatted like in the manual. Either the card isn´t shown up or the whole device freezes.


----------



## dcguy73 (Sep 13, 2021)

JaquesGelee said:


> How do you get it to work? I tested several cards, formatted like in the manual. Either the card isn´t shown up or the whole device freezes.


128GB max size, format as FAT32. Took a few tries but I got it to work reliably. Control it with the WiiM Player app (newly updated).


----------



## JaquesGelee

dcguy73 said:


> 128GB max size, format as FAT32. Took a few tries but I got it to work reliably. Control it with the WiiM Player app (newly updated).


Already done and double checked.

Thank you for the info about the update.

I deleted this MUZO app a while ago, so the update passed me. Hopefully the app is better now. Was absolutly crap in the past.

Cheers


----------



## iFi audio

JaquesGelee said:


> Hopefully the app is better now. Was absolutly crap in the past.



We hear you   



dcguy73 said:


> Control it with the WiiM Player app (newly updated).



Thanks for mentioning it, will have to give it a try. Is it this one? 

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.wifiaudio&hl=pl&gl=US


----------



## dcguy73

iFi audio said:


> We hear you
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, that’s the one.


----------



## iFi audio

dcguy73 said:


> Yes, that’s the one.



Thanks! I will check it!


----------



## wellhiddenmark

marcus2704 said:


> What I am most interested in today is to see what the IFI Pro iDSD gives me over the IFI Diablo which I already own.


From recent personal experience, a lot.

The Diablo is good, but the iFi Pro iDSD is leagues above.

If there's one thing that I've learned after a few short days with the iFi Pro, is that I'm seriously thinking of pulling the trigger on the GTO filter firmware for Diablo.


----------



## marcus2704

Agreed on that, my findings exactly with the iDSD and the Diablo.   As it goes, I have ended up with the Hugo 2, which to my ears is a notable step up from the Diablo and not too distinguishable from the iDSD.


----------



## iFi audio

wellhiddenmark said:


> The Diablo is good, but the iFi Pro iDSD is leagues above.



It should be considering their price and circuitry, but thanks for confirming!


----------



## Hoegaardener70

marcus2704 said:


> Agreed on that, my findings exactly with the iDSD and the Diablo.   As it goes, I have ended up with the Hugo 2, which to my ears is a notable step up from the Diablo and not too distinguishable from the iDSD.


Gotta disagree here - I owned both at the same time for a while, and the ifi pro idsd is noticeably warmer and organic, with the price of a tad less resolution. Preferred the ifi in the end.


----------



## wellhiddenmark

iFi audio said:


> It should be considering their price and circuitry, but thanks for confirming!


Not a problem. I think the iFi Pro iDSD (4.4 upgrade) is the best piece of kit I've purchased for a very long time. I'm currently listening to Daft Punk's Random Access Memories from Apple Music with GTO filter + DSD 1024 Remaster + Tube mode and even with just the HD600 (balanced 4.4 Custom Cans lead) it is genuinely incredible. Every detail is there with a natural, authoritative sound that is both engaging and relaxing. A true studio master sound.

I'm already saving up for the iCan and Elite power supply.


----------



## hsimsh10

@iFi audio 
I have another question.
Would it be a significant upgrade of my IFi Pro Idsd if I replace the original power supply with the new Ipower Elite?


----------



## dcguy73

hsimsh10 said:


> @iFi audio
> I have another question.
> Would it be a significant upgrade of my IFi Pro Idsd if I replace the original power supply with the new Ipower Elite?


Yes, at least in my experience.


----------



## iFi audio

hsimsh10 said:


> @iFi audio
> I have another question.
> Would it be a significant upgrade of my IFi Pro Idsd if I replace the original power supply with the new Ipower Elite?



Several our customers who tried it informed us that this PSU made a noticeable difference.


----------



## trevorlane

I just got the Pro iDSD and all outputs work except the 2.5mm balanced. The left channel is dead while the right channel works. This seems similar to the issue franz12 had when he got his unit. Has anyone else had this problem?


----------



## iFi audio

trevorlane said:


> I just got the Pro iDSD and all outputs work except the 2.5mm balanced. The left channel is dead while the right channel works. This seems similar to the issue franz12 had when he got his unit. Has anyone else had this problem?



I'm sorry to hear that. You might want to let us know here: https://support.ifi-audio.com


----------



## trevorlane

iFi audio said:


> I'm sorry to hear that. You might want to let us know here: https://support.ifi-audio.com


Thanks for the quick response, yes I've raised a support ticket.


----------



## iFi audio

trevorlane said:


> Thanks for the quick response, yes I've raised a support ticket.



Cool, please let me know via PM if there are any issues and thanks!


----------



## LFC_SL

https://www.phileweb.com/news/d-av/202109/19/53622.html

Pro iDSD Signature and Pro iCAN Signature announced as new flagships.


----------



## iFi audio

LFC_SL said:


> Pro iDSD Signature and Pro iCAN Signature announced as new flagships.



There's nothing to see here, let's carry on


----------



## Ficcion2 (Sep 22, 2021)

LFC_SL said:


> https://www.phileweb.com/news/d-av/202109/19/53622.html
> 
> Pro iDSD Signature and Pro iCAN Signature announced as new flagships.


That leaked pretty early! The dealer rumors ended up being correct after all.

But at $4k for the DAC and $3k for the amp and still no news about a mid range "Neo iCan" well at least my Zen Can is still kicking.


----------



## iFi audio

Ficcion2 said:


> That leaked pretty early! The dealer rumors ended up being correct after all.



Affirmative, but can't say much until the launch day


----------



## hsimsh10

New question - 
Has anyone compared the SQ of the internal phono stage of SN3 to other external phono stages such as Chord Huei or IFi Iphono 3 or Rega Aria?


----------



## alekc

iFi audio said:


> There's nothing to see here, let's carry on


@iFi audio if you say so... I'm in a quest for a new dac and headamp but if there is nothing see here I better move somewhere else


----------



## iFi audio

alekc said:


> @iFi audio if you say so... I'm in a quest for a new dac and headamp but if there is nothing see here I better move somewhere else



You're welcome to stay of course


----------



## Ross Kyle

iFi audio said:


> Affirmative, but can't say much until the launch day


upgrade fever from what i saw other week that ican is pretty


----------



## iFi audio

Ross Kyle said:


> upgrade fever from what i saw other week that ican is pretty



Then please stay tuned, it's worth it


----------



## LFC_SL

Ross Kyle said:


> upgrade fever from what i saw other week that ican is pretty



Now officially announced

https://ifi-audio.com/products/pro-idsd-signature/

https://ifi-audio.com/products/pro-ican-signature/


----------



## ufospls2

They look awesome imo. Really hoping I can get ears on them both eventually.


----------



## alekc

ufospls2 said:


> They look awesome imo. Really hoping I can get ears on them both eventually.


Honestly speaking I was hoping that this gold design was specifically for Russia/Asia markets and Europe would get something of more delicate touch. I highly dislike this new look but lets wait and see how those few changes will make both iDSD and iCan sound.


----------



## ufospls2

alekc said:


> Honestly speaking I was hoping that this gold design was specifically for Russia/Asia markets and Europe would get something of more delicate touch. I highly dislike this new look but lets wait and see how those few changes will make both iDSD and iCan sound.



I would have liked the see them in the same dark blue as the Micro iDSD Signature, but I'm totally ok with this look as well.


----------



## Ross Kyle

Man wish i could do a trade in to upgrade sad face


----------



## squeakez

Ross Kyle said:


> Man wish i could do a trade in to upgrade sad face


I am right there with you! I just received my iDSD yesterday. I definitely would've waited a couple of weeks to get the new version. I will wait for impressions or hopefully comparisons between old and new versions.


----------



## Ross Kyle

squeakez said:


> I am right there with you! I just received my iDSD yesterday. I definitely would've waited a couple of weeks to get the new version. I will wait for impressions or hopefully comparisons between old and new versions.


mine are both 3 years old now see what i can do , need to pop stock tubes back in and see if i can trade somewhere lol


----------



## ufospls2

squeakez said:


> I am right there with you! I just received my iDSD yesterday. I definitely would've waited a couple of weeks to get the new version. I will wait for impressions or hopefully comparisons between old and new versions.



Id email whoever you bought it from, and see if they can do something to help you out.


----------



## hsimsh10

What are the main functional differences between this new guy and the old good one?
Except the new remote control ?
Is it going to be Roon endpoint?


----------



## Ross Kyle

hsimsh10 said:


> What are the main functional differences between this new guy and the old good one?
> Except the new remote control ?
> Is it going to be Roon endpoint?


from what i see , better caps , better components , stronger power supply area the remote , and it comes with the elite psu which are really good and amazingly built


----------



## hsimsh10

Ross Kyle said:


> from what i see , better caps , better components , stronger power supply area the remote , and it comes with the elite psu which are really good and amazingly built


Thanks. 
However, I asked about functionality. The weak points of Pro Idsd are around network and streaming interfaces. 
my question is- 
Will the the new guy be Roon ready and support Tidal Connect ?


----------



## CADEng

Guys, MUZO again!!!! 
I just read manual on web site. Please give us better solution for control music from USB/SDHC also on iDSD Pro which I owned. Again ALL files in one endless row. 
I was hoping that STREAM-iFi Android app solve our problems but it seems that works only with ZEN Stream. We patiently wait for couple of years for software product from respectable company like iFi and we bought "future proofed product". 
Future will give all the answers.


----------



## iFi audio

LFC_SL said:


> https://ifi-audio.com/products/pro-idsd-signature/
> 
> https://ifi-audio.com/products/pro-ican-signature/



Yup, and shortly there should be a thread about these two!


----------



## iFi audio (Sep 24, 2021)

hsimsh10 said:


> Will the the new guy be Roon ready and support Tidal Connect ?



Pro iDSD Signature features the same network component, so nothing changes on this front and WiiM (previously Muzo) still is the one. Our iFi Bridge software for PCs turns the product into a Roon endpoint, though


----------



## domiji (Sep 24, 2021)

Looks like a minor upgrade to the device itself and a big "upgrade" at the price tag if the prices from the japansese website are reliable


----------



## iFi audio (Sep 24, 2021)

domiji said:


> Looks like a minor upgrade to the device itself and a big "upgrade" at the price tag



I hear you, but improvements done to Pro iDSD's power supply weren't small, and that's what makes all the difference. This change might look as tiny, but in reality finding a way how to improve that critical aspect took a while 

Power is essential for sound quality, and making it even cleaner past a certain point is very difficult.


----------



## domiji

iFi audio said:


> I hear you, but improvements done to Pro iDSD's power supply weren't small, and that's what makes all the difference. This change might look as tiny, but in reality finding a way how to improve that critical aspect took a while


Is the iPower Elite a key element for this improvement?


----------



## iFi audio (Sep 24, 2021)

domiji said:


> Is the iPower Elite a key element for this improvement?



Internal changes are the key element, but iPower Elite also audibly contributes. There's some feedback about this PSU with our Pro range on Head-fi.org, and listeners consider it as an upgrade over stock charger.


----------



## hawk13

The specs for the ican and ican signature look identical on the website. Curious to know what’s changed internally.


----------



## iFi audio

hawk13 said:


> The specs for the ican and ican signature look identical on the website. Curious to know what’s changed internally.



Please see post #3019 a bit above, thanks


----------



## hawk13

iFi audio said:


> Please see post #3019 a bit above, thanks


To be clear, I am an ifi fan, and the ican pro is an integral part of my system. I’m just not understanding how the internal changes made to the power supply affect the performance of the amp if all the specs (including THD) are the same.


----------



## vonBaron

Before i sell my IFI stack i plug them in to my LPS and it was noticable upgrade vs IFI black bricks.


----------



## normie610

iFi audio said:


> Pro iDSD Signature features the same network component, so nothing changes on this front and WiiM (previously Muzo) still is the one. Our iFi Bridge software for PCs turns the product into a Roon endpoint, though


So it’s a Roon Ready product?


----------



## hsimsh10

normie610 said:


> So it’s a Roon Ready product?


No it is not!
It does not appear in the roon ready devices list of Roon 
The IFi bridge is just a work around using the option of squeezebox support in Roon. 
the capabilities of this WA are limited - no DSD support. No full MqA support


----------



## iFi audio

hsimsh10 said:


> The IFi bridge is just a work around using the option of squeezebox support in Roon.



Affirmative!


----------



## EvilLoz

Just curious more than anything since Muzo has been brought up again.
Has anyone been able to network stream DSD files from a NAS to the Pro iDSD via Muzo/WiiM or other software?


----------



## hsimsh10

EvilLoz said:


> Just curious more than anything since Muzo has been brought up again.
> Has anyone been able to network stream DSD files from a NAS to the Pro iDSD via Muzo/WiiM or other software?


Can do Flac (I think up to 192/24). 
cannot do DSD


----------



## iFi audio

hawk13 said:


> To be clear, I am an ifi fan, and the ican pro is an integral part of my system. I’m just not understanding how the internal changes made to the power supply affect the performance of the amp if all the specs (including THD) are the same.




Sonically-darker background and more punchy bass
Upgraded power-supply components to lower overall system noise 300%
Precisely matched NOS GE5670s tubes
Added support for USB1.0 (PS4/PS5)
New Aluminum remote control
Top-of- the-range iPower Elite power supply include
 
The above are the enhancements for the Pro iDSD Signature over the original. The revised circuit design incorporates even more ultra-grade audiophile components than the original, such as new capacitors and resistors. These don't change the measured specifications of the product, which most audiophiles should be aware of, but the sound quality is 10-15% better than the original and the power supply noise is up to 100% quieter.


----------



## wellhiddenmark

iFi audio said:


> Several our customers who tried it informed us that this PSU made a noticeable difference.


Well I just pulled the trigger on the Elite 15V/3.5A.

After just a few minutes of listening, I'm welcoming significantly more soundstage and "air", better defined bass, and some more authority to the sound. It doesn't seem to add more detail, but that was already in the bag anyway.


----------



## iFi audio

wellhiddenmark said:


> Well I just pulled the trigger on the Elite 15V/3.5A.
> 
> After just a few minutes of listening, I'm welcoming significantly more soundstage and "air", better defined bass, and some more authority to the sound. It doesn't seem to add more detail, but that was already in the bag anyway.



Thanks for your feedback. And yes, the quieter a power supply is, the more air, tighter bass control, blacker background and smoother sound in general you'll have. Enjoy


----------



## LFC_SL

Is the non signature officially (emphasis) advertised as PS5 compatible? With the removal of useful ports in the current gen consoles if the Signature version indeed has UAC1 that is useful to know


----------



## EvilLoz

@iFi audio 

First, let me state that I *am *a fan of iFi products

I accept that while using software not created by iFi to stream might not provide all the functionality that the product can achieve

The official product page clearly states that DSD64 is supported under the network streaming section, without a computer to stream the audio






How is this achieved?
As I cannot find any software on the official iFi support/download pages

Even DSD files directly connected to USB storage to the Pro iDSD cannot be found in the WiiM software endorsed by iFi for the product

Am I missing something here?


----------



## Ross Kyle

hsimsh10 said:


> Thanks.
> However, I asked about functionality. The weak points of Pro Idsd are around network and streaming interfaces.
> my question is-
> Will the the new guy be Roon ready and support Tidal Connect ?


hopefully


iFi audio said:


> Thanks for your feedback. And yes, the quieter a power supply is, the more air, tighter bass control, blacker background and smoother sound in general you'll have. Enjoy


nvm the improvement just the build on them is fantastic haha they are super pretty


----------



## hsimsh10

hsimsh10 said:


> Can do Flac (I think up to 192/24).
> cannot do DSD


Wiim app still do not support MQA !


----------



## Ross Kyle

hsimsh10 said:


> Wiim app still do not support MQA !


that’s a good thing 😂


----------



## Sphere 57

Ross Kyle said:


> that’s a good thing 😂


Not it you want to use Tidal


----------



## chaz_flhr

iFi audio said:


> Pro iDSD Signature features the same network component, so nothing changes on this front and WiiM (previously Muzo) still is the one. Our iFi Bridge software for PCs turns the product into a Roon endpoint, though


So the using the signature as a streaming device through the cat 5 connection will be the same as the older model?


----------



## MikeyFresh

Sphere 57 said:


> Not it you want to use Tidal



Then don't use TIDAL, Qobuz offers real hi-res and real Redbook CD-quality at lower cost.

If you still want upsampling with leaky minimum phase digital filters prone to imaging, you can apply that yourself for free.


----------



## iFi audio

LFC_SL said:


> Is the non signature officially (emphasis) advertised as PS5 compatible? With the removal of useful ports in the current gen consoles if the Signature version indeed has UAC1 that is useful to know



We're doing our best to have all our DACs compatible with latest-gen consoles, but our regular Pro iDSD isn't yet there officially AFAIK.


----------



## Ross Kyle

iFi audio said:


> We're doing our best to have all our DACs compatible with latest-gen consoles, but our regular Pro iDSD isn't yet there officially AFAIK.


doesn’t matter man xbox for example only lets certain 3rd party approved over usb on series x , i use a hdmi splitter and run optical into back if idsd


----------



## hsimsh10

MikeyFresh said:


> Then don't use TIDAL, Qobuz offers real hi-res and real Redbook CD-quality at lower cost.
> 
> If you still want upsampling with leaky minimum phase digital filters prone to imaging, you can apply that yourself for free.


Qobuz cannot be used in Israel. So I am using Tidal. MQA is not upsampling  but some kind of ziping hi- res tracks. I use Roon that streams all tidal or local tracks from my windows 10 server to network bridge Sotm SMS200 that is connected by USB to my IFI PRO IDSD.  In this way I can play local DSD tracks and to Tidal MQA tracks. I was hoping  that the new DAC would be better in this area… By the way , I have several MQA tracks I purchased and downloaded from the net. Wiim can play them successfully.  Why cannot it do it from Tidal?


----------



## Sphere 57

MikeyFresh said:


> Then don't use TIDAL, Qobuz offers real hi-res and real Redbook CD-quality at lower cost.
> 
> If you still want upsampling with leaky minimum phase digital filters prone to imaging, you can apply that yourself for free.


I already have Qobuz thank you.
The catalogue on Qobuz is poor compared to Tidal, and it is falling ever further behind. I don't think Qobuz will ever be good enough to satisfy my needs on its own.


----------



## MikeyFresh

hsimsh10 said:


> Qobuz cannot be used in Israel.


Thats too bad, Qobuz is both better and cheaper here in the U.S. 
In Canada they have the same issue, they've been waiting forever for Qobuz, I know a bunch of Canadians that will dump TIDAL in a heartbeat, once Qobuz is made available in Canada.



hsimsh10 said:


> MQA is not upsampling but some kind of ziping hi- res tracks.


Actually it truly is upsampling of 44.1 and 48kHz source files using leaky minimum phase filters. It is also lossy, though one could make a case it is lossy in an inaudible way, but lossy all the same. Lastly, there is no "deblurring" or improvement of any time domain characteristics as claimed. In fact it's the other way around, testing has shown it to slightly degrade that, though again, likely inaudible.



hsimsh10 said:


> Wiim can play them successfully. Why cannot it do it from Tidal?


Good question, that app isn't held in very high regard from what I've gathered.



Sphere 57 said:


> The catalogue on Qobuz is poor compared to Tidal


But thats just your own opinion, of which you are of course entitled, but it's not some broad truism. Music preference is a matter of taste. What catalog you might like or dislike can and will differ with other's point of view.


Sphere 57 said:


> I don't think Qobuz will ever be good enough to satisfy my needs on its own.


Thats too bad, as Qobuz is real hi-res and real Redbook CD-quality, where MQA on TIDAL simply isn't.


----------



## Sphere 57

Please give the boring 'MQA is bad' lectures a rest. This thread is supposed to be about the iFi Pro iDSD.


----------



## MikeyFresh

Sphere 57 said:


> Please give the boring 'MQA is bad' lectures a rest.


Will do sir but it's not a lecture, those are facts, I'm sorry they bore you.


----------



## Ross Kyle

to be fair he is both right factually , and also kinda asked for it to honest if you spout non truths then by all rights someone can correct


----------



## Sphere 57

Not everything he said is a fact. No one asked for it. No one "spout non truths".

The Pro iDSD is sold as an MQA compatible product, it's clearly marked on the box and all the promotion. It's perfectly reasonable that owners should want to stream Tidal with it, and discuss how to do so on this forum.

It is incredibly tedious, that _every single time_ Tidal or MQA is discussed on any internet forum, someone feels the need to correct the 'fools'. Why don't you people keep your tiresome repetitive opinions to yourselves, do you really think anyone here hasn't heard it a hundred times already.


----------



## Ross Kyle

No need to be a dick either and it was fact what he said it’s been proven , you are taking it off topic by having a bitch about it


----------



## hsimsh10

MikeyFresh said:


> Thats too bad, Qobuz is both better and cheaper here in the U.S.
> In Canada they have the same issue, they've been waiting forever for Qobuz, I know a bunch of Canadians that will dump TIDAL in a heartbeat, once Qobuz is made available in Canada.
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you @MikeyFresh 
I did not write that MQA is  lossless. It is a compression as you wrote. 
When I compared same tracks in 3 formats - CD quality  to MQA format to real  Hi-Res format, I found out that MQA is better than CD quality and lesser than real Hi-Res….
I cannot purchase every title I want in real HiRes format  . So Tidal MQA is a very good alternative.  
It  is a shame that when The Pro IDSD is declared as full MQA compliant , its streaming application does not support it.  
I also think it is a pity that when IFI AUDIO invest so much for this new signature device , they ignore the streaming part and do not try to support MQA or  make this device a real Roon Ready device


----------



## Sphere 57

Streaming module would have been the first thing on my list to upgrade. Maybe it just wasn't 'doable', I would guess that is a bought-in part, and the power supply is 'in house'.


----------



## MikeyFresh

Sphere 57 said:


> It is incredibly tedious, that _every single time_ Tidal or MQA is discussed on any internet forum, someone feels the need to correct the 'fools'.


Absolutely false, now you are the one spouting off with BS. _Every single time_ huh? Dream on.


----------



## Sphere 57

MikeyFresh said:


> Absolutely false, now you are the one spouting off with BS. _Every single time_ huh? Dream on.


Move on


----------



## MikeyFresh

Sphere 57 said:


> Move on


I already had, but I don't see Moderator in your description, and your 100+ post count doesn't qualify you to issue any orders.

Evidently I've touched a raw nerve with a fanboy who fiercely wants to validate his investment in bogus technology. Good day sir.


----------



## iFi audio

Ross Kyle said:


> doesn’t matter man xbox for example only lets certain 3rd party approved over usb on series x , i use a hdmi splitter and run optical into back if idsd



Extracting audio stream from HDMI is what I would do too, yup. It's not elegant in the sense that we need a speakrate box etc., but if that's the way to send data to a fancy DAC, so be it 

Still, we're working hard on making USB viable.


----------



## Sphere 57

MikeyFresh said:


> I already had, but I don't see Moderator in your description, and your 100+ post count doesn't qualify you to issue any orders.
> 
> Evidently I've touched a raw nerve with a fanboy who fiercely wants to validate his investment in bogus technology. Good day sir.


Whatever


----------



## Ross Kyle

iFi audio said:


> Extracting audio stream from HDMI is what I would do too, yup. It's not elegant in the sense that we need a speakrate box etc., but if that's the way to send data to a fancy DAC, so be it
> 
> Still, we're working hard on making USB viable.


yeah not elegant but that’s on Microsoft not you guys haha bravo for working on it but


----------



## chaz_flhr (Sep 26, 2021)

dcguy73 said:


> For my main listening rig, I have a "high end" setup now of the Denafrips Gaia, Terminator Plus, and Pathos Acoustics InEar headphone amp that excel at classical, jazz, and anything hi-res. I've moved my iCan Pro and iDSD Pro to the home office, and I sometimes find myself in the office late at night listening to Day Wave on the iFi combo.  While the main setup is technically superior, with a lot higher resolution and intensity, the iFi set retains a certain level of fun I haven't been able to achieve in the main setup -- especially when streaming to the iDSD via Ethernet or using the iDSD's built-in micro-SD Card reader. The main setup is kind of like going to and attending a live performance versus the iFi setup, which is more like watching the live performance on your home theater system in your living room alone at home in a pair of worn pajamas.


Gotta ask how did you get the Ethernet and streaming to work, does Qobuz work
never mind it works like a charm once I ran a dedicated cat 6 to it from the router, definitely better than going through node 2i the new interface is much better as well.


----------



## chaz_flhr

Ok now I have a question, a album I thought was supposed to be a DSD album renders as 352mhz MQA, I didn’t think Qobuz did MQA, does anyone know why this happens? No matter what setting or filter is applied it switches to MQA.
the album in question is on Qobuz, David Ellis acoustic trio DSD sessions. Does anyone know of a actual DSD album on Qobuz?


----------



## MikeyFresh

chaz_flhr said:


> Does anyone know of a actual DSD album on Qobuz?


No, there is not supposed to be any DSD on Qobuz.


----------



## chaz_flhr

MikeyFresh said:


> No, there is not supposed to be any DSD on Qobuz.


Ok thanks any ideas why that album and a few others are MQA 352 when playing on iDSD Pro on Qobuz?


----------



## MikeyFresh

chaz_flhr said:


> Ok thanks any ideas why that album and a few others are MQA 352 when playing on iDSD Pro on Qobuz?


I don't know, if I play that album on Qobuz using Audirvana, it does not show as MQA, and both the software and the DAC show it as 16-bit/44.1kHz.

There are two versions of that album listed, Acoustic Trio: DSD Sessions, and Acoustic Trio: DSD Sessions (Remastered). Both playback as described above on my system.


----------



## iFi audio

Ross Kyle said:


> yeah not elegant but that’s on Microsoft not you guys haha bravo for working on it but



Exactly. We can only adapt to standards available


----------



## Sphere 57

chaz_flhr said:


> Ok now I have a question, a album I thought was supposed to be a DSD album renders as 352mhz MQA, I didn’t think Qobuz did MQA, does anyone know why this happens? No matter what setting or filter is applied it switches to MQA.
> the album in question is on Qobuz, David Ellis acoustic trio DSD sessions. Does anyone know of a actual DSD album on Qobuz?


Are you talking about a download you bought from Qobuz, or their streaming service?


----------



## chaz_flhr

Sphere 57 said:


> Are you talking about a download you bought from Qobuz, or their streaming service?


Streaming through a node 2i and streaming straight from iDSD through the improved muso app.


----------



## chaz_flhr (Sep 27, 2021)

MikeyFresh said:


> I don't know, if I play that album on Qobuz using Audirvana, it does not show as MQA, and both the software and the DAC show it as 16-bit/44.1kHz.
> 
> There are two versions of that album listed, Acoustic Trio: DSD Sessions, and Acoustic Trio: DSD Sessions (Remastered). Both playback as described above on my system.


Interesting result with 16/44.1, I  am using the new muso app with the remastered version from a direct connected cat6 but I did get the same results when going through my node 2i and bluesound through the BNC connection.


----------



## Sphere 57 (Sep 27, 2021)

chaz_flhr said:


> Streaming through a node 2i and streaming straight from iDSD through the improved muso app.


I was going to say that you had a good reason to ask for your money back if it was a purchase, since DSD is in the title.

It streams as MQA for me too, via an Auralic Aries streamer and it's app, not MQA certified but 'bit perfect'. There are a few MQA albums on Qobuz, their policy is to pass on files as they receive them, adding no processing or remastering of their own.

A few years back they did say that it was their hope to stream DSD one day, but they also said they were bringing DSD to the download store and I've never seen any, not even for labels like Channel Classics, who are really into it.


----------



## MikeyFresh (Oct 29, 2022)

.


----------



## tdx

Tried to search this thread but couldn't really find an answer. Has anyone ever tried to IDSD Pro with Susvaras? Just curious if they can be enough to drive them well (I don't listen at high volume) or if i def need the Ican pro for these. Thanks


----------



## Ross Kyle

tdx said:


> Tried to search this thread but couldn't really find an answer. Has anyone ever tried to IDSD Pro with Susvaras? Just curious if they can be enough to drive them well (I don't listen at high volume) or if i def need the Ican pro for these. Thanks


Youd  need ican for it tbh but even then doesn’t quite provide enough for transients so it’s soft sometimes but capable , what i’d recommend if using pro stack for susvara is a decent speaker amp and run pro cab or even i guess idsd in pre , really sweet with the tubes sometimes


----------



## iFi audio

tdx said:


> Tried to search this thread but couldn't really find an answer. Has anyone ever tried to IDSD Pro with Susvaras? Just curious if they can be enough to drive them well (I don't listen at high volume) or if i def need the Ican pro for these. Thanks



As much as I like Pro iDSD's headphone out, for Susvaras Pro iCAN is highly recommended. These cans are no joke, they really need a lot of juice to get going 🧃


----------



## chaz_flhr

Sphere 57 said:


> I was going to say that you had a good reason to ask for your money back if it was a purchase, since DSD is in the title.
> 
> It streams as MQA for me too, via an Auralic Aries streamer and it's app, not MQA certified but 'bit perfect'. There are a few MQA albums on Qobuz, their policy is to pass on files as they receive them, adding no processing or remastering of their own.
> 
> A few years back they did say that it was their hope to stream DSD one day, but they also said they were bringing DSD to the download store and I've never seen any, not even for labels like Channel Classics, who are really into itit was recommended to me as a DSD


Thanks


----------



## chaz_flhr

Just received the 15v ifi power elite to power my stack is it better to go to iCAN then bridge to iDSD or does it make no difference?


----------



## Ross Kyle

chaz_flhr said:


> Just received the 15v ifi power elite to power my stack is it better to go to iCAN then bridge to iDSD or does it make no difference?


i currently daisy chain with dc to dc and run one single elite , depending if i get signature models or not i may get a second , ideally you run one to each component


----------



## chaz_flhr

MikeyFresh said:


> At the risk of sounding like I'm trying to say Audirvana is perfect (it isn't), or trying to reignite a flame war with regard to MQA (I'm not), this is an example of exactly what I was saying in my OP to you.
> 
> That album you are playing is a 16-bit/44.1kHz source file, and it is being upsampled to yield the readout on your DAC. Seriously, it just is. The most ridiculous aspect is that with such a 16-bit file, there is absolutely nothing to unfold at all, it's just upsampling to 352.8kHz using a leaky minimum phase filter prone to imaging.
> 
> ...


I understand what you are saying and “here” was actually a interesting read, information and education are always welcome Thanks. 
That said in my DX 312 it plays as a 16/44 as well what I find odd is how or why the iDSD preforms up conversation to MQA format on its own unless the original file has the MQA marker bit in it since it seems after reading it would require it to trigger MQA decoding, that has occurred on 2 Hoff Ensemble albums on Qobuz as well for me. 
Although I don’t find MQA masters To sound bad per-se and I do understand it is a lossy format, currently in certain circumstances it works for me but I am experimenting with Qobuz to replace Tidal especially with the pro iDSD and the DX 312 as my source.


----------



## chaz_flhr

Ross Kyle said:


> i currently daisy chain with dc to dc and run one single elite , depending if i get signature models or not i may get a second , ideally you run one to each component


I agree, ideally I would like one for each maybe later I will grab another one, I just picked up a DX 300 and amp 12 5 days ago and just happened across this over the weekend for 180 on Amazon so I used my points To snag it.
 I do wonder if it makes any difference which component should get the elite and which is connected, part of me thinks amp first because it uses more juice but the other part thinks DAC first because it is decoding and needs the cleanest power first or maybe it makes no difference considering the Stellia is attached the majority of the time with occasional Arya use so I rarely am over 9am on 0 gain with Stellia.
If the signature iDSD had xbass I would probably pick one up and run Stellia from that and use this stack downstairs for Arya.


----------



## RonPlata

Hello, how do I stream using airplay on my iphone to the pro idsd?


----------



## Ross Kyle (Sep 28, 2021)

chaz_flhr said:


> I agree, ideally I would like one for each maybe later I will grab another one, I just picked up a DX 300 and amp 12 5 days ago and just happened across this over the weekend for 180 on Amazon so I used my points To snag it.
> I do wonder if it makes any difference which component should get the elite and which is connected, part of me thinks amp first because it uses more juice but the other part thinks DAC first because it is decoding and needs the cleanest power first or maybe it makes no difference considering the Stellia is attached the majority of the time with occasional Arya use so I rarely am over 9am on 0 gain with Stellia.
> If the signature iDSD had xbass I would probably pick one up and run Stellia from that and use this stack downstairs for Arya.


sigantures come with elite as standard now but yeah i run mine into IDSD then daisy chain ican


----------



## dcguy73 (Sep 28, 2021)

The app that replaced/updated the much-loathed Muzo (the default iDSD Pro networking software), WiiM Player, is much more stable and usable than the previous software. It has yet to crash on me, unlike the prior edition. You still have to scroll down a list to find your locally-stored music, but the app scrolls and refreshes more quickly than before.

I don't think iFi can take credit for this improvement, but it works out well for all of us nonetheless.


----------



## EvilLoz

dcguy73 said:


> The app that replaced/updated the much-loathed Muzo (the default iDSD Pro networking software), WiiM Player, is much more stable and usable than the previous software. It has yet to crash on me, unlike the prior edition. You still have to scroll down a list to find your locally-stored music, but the app scrolls and refreshes more quickly than before.
> 
> I don't think iFi can take credit for this improvement, but it works out well for all of us nonetheless.


were you ever able to play DSD files using Muzo/WiiM?


----------



## dcguy73

EvilLoz said:


> were you ever able to play DSD files using Muzo/WiiM?


Nope, still can't.


----------



## EvilLoz

EvilLoz said:


> @iFi audio
> 
> First, let me state that I *am *a fan of iFi products
> 
> ...


@iFi audio 

There's been several replies from the iFi team since this was posted.
Can someone from iFi please respond?


----------



## Ross Kyle

I just feed it with a Pi running Ropiexxl lets me stream airplay or through network rather than direct , can play DSD 64 fine ,  streaming section has always been meh


----------



## hsimsh10

RonPlata said:


> Hello, how do I stream using airplay on my iphone to the pro idsd?


Yes. 
just switch the IDSD to APP mode and It will show up In the airplay devices list on your iPhone


----------



## iFi audio (Sep 29, 2021)

EvilLoz said:


> @iFi audio
> 
> There's been several replies from the iFi team since this was posted.
> Can someone from iFi please respond?



Sure, here's a post we did a while back on Pro iDSD used via network with jriver: 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/ifi...are-mqa-and-more.869144/page-20#post-14396981



Ross Kyle said:


> I just feed it with a Pi running Ropiexxl lets me stream airplay or through network rather than direct , can play DSD 64 fine , streaming section has always been meh



Thanks, this should work indeed. But in general, we provide a platform with a network component, but not a software of our own.


----------



## RonPlata (Sep 29, 2021)

hsimsh10 said:


> Yes.
> just switch the IDSD to APP mode and It will show up In the airplay devices list on your iPhone


ok I got it thanks. I also forgot how to pair it with my home wifi, I was pressing the wps button once but I had to hold it for a bit longer for it to enter pairing state. All working nice now.

Edit: do you know why the dac only gives me 44 kHz even when im playing 48 kHz through apple music?


----------



## Ross Kyle

iFi audio said:


> Sure, here's a post we did a while back on Pro iDSD used via network with jriver:
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/ifi...are-mqa-and-more.869144/page-20#post-14396981
> 
> ...


it’s either that or you use the zen stream which will still do a better job than the inherent streaming , lucky i run direct to source or my pc mostly


----------



## iFi audio

Ross Kyle said:


> it’s either that or you use the zen stream which will still do a better job than the inherent streaming , lucky i run direct to source or my pc mostly



Pro iDSD came out several years before ZEN Stream, so its Signature version that shares the same core platform also had to feature the same network component. If we could fit in ZEN Stream inside Pro iDSD Signature, we would


----------



## Leo246

Hello folks! 
Just bought iDSD Pro to use it with my Audio Valve Solaris amp
I have Susvara and Abyss 1266.
I didn't consider iDSD as amp, so I don't care how it's works with this two hp's.
My main aim is to use it as dac and streamer. 
I have Oppo uhd-205 that I use as dac and streamer. 
But Oppo can't play dxd files, dsd more then  128 and only 24 bit
I must say that as dac idsd is 10 times better. I finally got from my amp what I'm expected from the amp of this price range. I'm extremely happy 😄! 
As a newbie I have a few questions :
1. How to stream files from NAS. 
2. My firmware is 1.38 version. I tried to update to 2.08 but update always fail. 
How important to update firmware? 
I opened ticket on ifi support site but did not get reply meanwhile. 
Any suggestions? 
3. I prefer not to use pc at all. 
Is it possible to live wireless only? Or I need cable connection? Can I connect NAS directly to iDSD? 
Will appreciate any help! 
Leo


----------



## iFi audio

Leo246 said:


> I opened ticket on ifi support site but did not get reply meanwhile.



Can you please send me your ticket number via PM so I can see in what state it is currently?



Leo246 said:


> 2. My firmware is 1.38 version. I tried to update to 2.08 but update always fail.



Although the 2.08 FW isn't mandatory for Pro iDSD to work, it fixes several bugs and is advised, so our support should help you out with that as well.



Leo246 said:


> 1. How to stream files from NAS.



Have you tried using WiiM Player?


----------



## chaz_flhr (Oct 13, 2021)

Leo246 said:


> Hello folks!
> Just bought iDSD Pro to use it with my Audio Valve Solaris amp
> I have Susvara and Abyss 1266.
> I didn't consider iDSD as amp, so I don't care how it's works with this two hp's.
> ...


I have my Pro iDSD wired with cat6 to my 24 port switch the app found my network connected NAS, even the card in the router, I believe others have successfully connected wirelessly.
 According to the specs you can direct connect a NAS tho I haven't tried it.
This new version of Muso is way better than the old version but it is still not as functional as it should be IMHO and navigation in a larger NAS could be cumbersome.
You can always just give it a try.
The amp in the pro is no slouch on it's own for easier to drive HP like my Arya and Stellia I don't think it would cut it with your HP tho.


----------



## iFi audio

chaz_flhr said:


> I have my Pro iDSD wired with cat6 to my 24 port switch the app found my network connected NAS, even the card in the router, I believe others have successfully connected wirelessly.
> According to the specs you can direct connect a NAS tho I haven't tried it.
> This new version of Muso is way better than the old version but it is still not as functional as it should be IMHO and navigation in a larger NAS could be cumbersome.
> You can always just give it a try.


Thanks!   



chaz_flhr said:


> The amp in the pro is no slouch on it's own for easier to drive HP like my Arya and Stellia I don't think it would cut it with your HP tho.



Pro iDSD's internal amplifier is an interesting one in the sense that there is no typical headphone amp inside the product. Instead connected headphones get juice directly from a line driver (essentially the entire analog stage) that's powerful enough to handle many without any issues


----------



## Glokta

@iFi audio I'd really love to see a simple balanced DAC from you guys in the £2.000 range - without any bells and whistles, I don't need streaming, bluetooth, tubes, etc... I would buy it in a heartbeat for my secondary setup.


----------



## iFi audio

Glokta said:


> @iFi audio I'd really love to see a simple balanced DAC from you guys in the £2.000 range - without any bells and whistles, I don't need streaming, bluetooth, tubes, etc... I would buy it in a heartbeat for my secondary setup.



That's good to know, thanks! Who knows, perhaps one day we'll make a purist DAC without anything else than just a power switch and input selector. We never say never


----------



## TooFrank

iFi audio said:


> Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> Pro iDSD's internal amplifier is an interesting one in the sense that there is no typical headphone amp inside the product. Instead connected headphones get juice directly from a line driver (essentially the entire analog stage) that's powerful enough to handle many without any issues


So when you have the pro iDSD, you don't need the pro ICAN?


----------



## chaz_flhr

TooFrank said:


> So when you have the pro iDSD, you don't need the pro ICAN?


I think many could live with just the pro iDSD if you don’t need more than 4 watts @ 16 ohm.  I find it drives everything I have great but adding in the iCAN gives way more headroom and flexibility of fine tuning the sound signature to your liking, ie  double tubes or different amounts of xbass if desired, Filters etc, so many options between the two.


----------



## Glokta

iFi audio said:


> That's good to know, thanks! Who knows, perhaps one day we'll make a purist DAC without anything else than just a power switch and input selector. We never say never


I wouldn't go that far, some attenuation might be needed, please leave us a volume knob on it


----------



## TooFrank

chaz_flhr said:


> I think many could live with just the pro iDSD if you don’t need more than 4 watts @ 16 ohm.  I find it drives everything I have great but adding in the iCAN gives way more headroom and flexibility of fine tuning the sound signature to your liking, ie  double tubes or different amounts of xbass if desired, Filters etc, so many options between the two.


Thanks, I am convinced now and I have just ordered a 2nd hand ICAN (1150 USD). Looking forward to join the ICAN club. (The next step will be to discuss cables (XLR) for the balanced output As of now, I only have the stock cable for the Stellia's, but that's another story)


----------



## chaz_flhr (Nov 3, 2021)

TooFrank said:


> Thanks, I am convinced now and I have just ordered a 2nd hand ICAN (1150 USD). Looking forward to join the ICAN club. (The next step will be to discuss cables (XLR) for the balanced output As of now, I only have the stock cable for the Stellia's, but that's another story)


  That is a great price I think you will be impressed with the ICAN especially in combination with the iDSD. I love the XBass implementation and the tubes warmth, you will be impressed with the versatility of the pair. I have mine connected with XLR’s and I added a ifi power elite that I found on sale to power them.
   Although I have a Norne cable on my Stellia I have been using the stock 10 ft Stellia cable on my Arya or Radiance.
   Welcome to the club I hope you enjoy the combination as much as I do. As I type this I am listening to a pair of FD7 IEM’s quite impressive.


----------



## iFi audio (Nov 2, 2021)

TooFrank said:


> So when you have the pro iDSD, you don't need the pro ICAN?



Pro iDSD's headphone out is good, but Pro iCAN as a standalone headphone amp is an improvement that can also more easily handle headphones difficult to drive.



Glokta said:


> I wouldn't go that far, some attenuation might be needed, please leave us a volume knob on it



That's a reasonable request


----------



## dcguy73

I moved my iCan Pro + iDSD Pro stack back into my main setup to use with my LCD-5 headphones. I moved over the iFi PowerStation and SupaNova cable as well to power them and keep the iFi synergy going. Using this combination and applying X-Bass and double tubes to the headphones brings a warmer and fuller sound that I feel the Audeze have been lacking with my other equipment. I’m sure the newer signature versions of the iFi stack bring improvements, but the OG combo is still very solid.


----------



## iFi audio

dcguy73 said:


> I moved my iCan Pro + iDSD Pro stack back into my main setup to use with my LCD-5 headphones. I moved over the iFi PowerStation and SupaNova cable as well to power them and keep the iFi synergy going. Using this combination and applying X-Bass and double tubes to the headphones brings a warmer and fuller sound that I feel the Audeze have been lacking with my other equipment. I’m sure the newer signature versions of the iFi stack bring improvements, but the OG combo is still very solid.



Thanks for your feedback and yes, the original Pro range still is solid and taking care of power just as you did will make it operational at its highest gear.


----------



## TooFrank

chaz_flhr said:


> That is a great price I think you will be impressed with the ICAN especially in combination with the iDSD. I love the XBass implementation and the tubes warmth, you will be impressed with the versatility of the pair. I have mine connected with XLR’s and I added a ifi power elite that I found on sale to power them.
> Although I have a Norne cable on my Stellia I have been using the stock 10 ft Stellia cable on my Arya or Radiance.
> Welcome to the club I hope you enjoy the combination as much as I do. As I type this I am listening to a pair of FD7 IEM’s quite impressive.


Just opened the box and connected my new used ICAN to the iDSD: Now I get it  Used my stock Stellia XLR cable with my Arya's and haven't gotten to try any more today (listening to Madeleine Peyroux). Even when not using balanced, I get more air, and when balanced: wow. Have to check whether I can upgrade my expensive SE Arctic Signum+ cable from 3.5 mm to XLR. Or maybe buy a cheaper one for new? The Stellia stock XLR is quite stiff.... And how about getting balanced for the HD650s and the Grado's I have? I know - I am babbling, but I am very happy. BTW do you get synergy of using tubes on both devices? And as I don't have any device to store them on, is it OK - taken the heat into consideration - to stack them directly - and does it matter which one is on top? Many thanks


----------



## Ross Kyle

TooFrank said:


> Just opened the box and connected my new used ICAN to the iDSD: Now I get it  Used my stock Stellia XLR cable with my Arya's and haven't gotten to try any more today (listening to Madeleine Peyroux). Even when not using balanced, I get more air, and when balanced: wow. Have to check whether I can upgrade my expensive SE Arctic Signum+ cable from 3.5 mm to XLR. Or maybe buy a cheaper one for new? The Stellia stock XLR is quite stiff.... And how about getting balanced for the HD650s and the Grado's I have? I know - I am babbling, but I am very happy. BTW do you get synergy of using tubes on both devices? And as I don't have any device to store them on, is it OK - taken the heat into consideration - to stack them directly - and does it matter which one is on top? Many thanks


There is different combos yous get  between using tubes on either or both , also if directly stacked then ican on top as it’s the warmest


----------



## dcguy73

TooFrank said:


> Just opened the box and connected my new used ICAN to the iDSD: Now I get it  Used my stock Stellia XLR cable with my Arya's and haven't gotten to try any more today (listening to Madeleine Peyroux). Even when not using balanced, I get more air, and when balanced: wow. Have to check whether I can upgrade my expensive SE Arctic Signum+ cable from 3.5 mm to XLR. Or maybe buy a cheaper one for new? The Stellia stock XLR is quite stiff.... And how about getting balanced for the HD650s and the Grado's I have? I know - I am babbling, but I am very happy. BTW do you get synergy of using tubes on both devices? And as I don't have any device to store them on, is it OK - taken the heat into consideration - to stack them directly - and does it matter which one is on top? Many thanks


I wouldn't advise stacking them without adding footers or some kind of separator in-between the two components. They need a little breathing room.


----------



## iFi audio

TooFrank said:


> ave to check whether I can upgrade my expensive SE Arctic Signum+ cable from 3.5 mm to XLR. Or maybe buy a cheaper one for new?



You could try Forza AudioWorks. We've been using these cables for many years, we're very happy with them and they're reasonably priced.



TooFrank said:


> BTW do you get synergy of using tubes on both devices?



It's all up to you whether you like the effect. Please try engaging tubes on both products and see how it works for you 



TooFrank said:


> And as I don't have any device to store them on, is it OK - taken the heat into consideration - to stack them directly - and does it matter which one is on top?



It's a good practice to separate audio products, so some space between your components is advised. Usually amps get hotter and those should go on top.


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## adydula (Nov 14, 2021)

@iFi audio
Is there anyway to turn off the wifi at all?
I read the 6moons signature review that was cut short when he tried to open the Signature unit up to see if the wi-fi function could be
stopped?
He seems to have had an issue and had to send it back..with a "possible" continutation only if the wi-fi could be turned off??

???????
Alex


----------



## iFi audio

adydula said:


> @iFi audio
> Is there anyway to turn off the wifi at all?
> I read the 6moons signature review that was cut short when he tried to open the Signature unit up to see if the wi-fi function could be
> stopped?
> ...



Yes, Pro iDSD Signature's WiFi module can be removed and the product works fine without it. You would have to open it up and detach the WiFi component (it's not soldered) positioned on top of a rectangular PCB with our XMOS and SPARTAN-6 FPGA. We're not sure why exactly Srajan wasn't able to perform this operation, but as a reviewer he's careful and he didn't want to break anything, which is fair. His demo unit is at our workshop and he'll have it back shortly.


----------



## adydula (Nov 14, 2021)

iFi audio said:


> Yes, Pro iDSD Signature's WiFi module can be removed and the product works fine without it. You would have to open it up and detach the WiFi component positioned on top of a rectangular PCB with our XMOS and SPARTAN-6 FPGA. We're not sure why exactly Srajan wasn't able to perform this operation, but as a reviewer he's careful and he didn't want to break anything, which is fair. His demo unit is at our workshop and he'll have it back shortly.


He seems not to want the wi-fi radiating any RFI etc...I can understand this.
Ok so the next question is..
If us owners out here do this does this VOID our warranty?
I understand there are many "appliance" operators out "here"..
But some of us are indeed very technically capable of doing this fairly "simple" task.
I am an EE.

I think I know your anwser...

Thanks
Alex


----------



## iFi audio

adydula said:


> But some of us are indeed very technically capable of doing this fairly "simple" task.



Well, it is a simple task indeed, but opening up the product voids its warranty. Sorry!


----------



## Leo246

Is it possible to upgrade idsd pro to idsd pro signature?


----------



## adydula

Oh wow...I dont think so....


----------



## iFi audio

Leo246 said:


> Is it possible to upgrade idsd pro to idsd pro signature?



Unfortunately no. All changes that turned Pro iDSD into its signature version were too severe. If you won the original Pro iDSD, you can elevate its performance by powering it with our iPower Elite PSU.


----------



## Leo246

I need functionality of signature. 
I need remotely switch inputs and filters first of all. Any chance firmware upgrade or it is hardware changes?


----------



## iFi audio

Leo246 said:


> I need remotely switch inputs and filters first of all. Any chance firmware upgrade or it is hardware changes?



I'm affraid that a remote pilot bundled with the original Pro iDSD won't allow for that.


----------



## Leo246

I dont know why not to take money for upgrade and keep fellow owners on the top level. 
Every owner not only owner but ifi presentator as well. 
I think its clear


----------



## iFi audio

Leo246 said:


> I dont know why not to take money for upgrade and keep fellow owners on the top level.
> Every owner not only owner but ifi presentator as well.
> I think its clear



I hear you and rest assured that if such upgrades were possible, we'd happily provide them. But in case of Pro iDSD becoming its Signature version the list of reworks is too extensive to unlock this option. Thanks for your input though!


----------



## Leo246

I think its only matter of money.


----------



## Leo246

It's can be expensive for somebody, but I think its should be. 
Life is long, and company should keep owners be owners for tomorrow and after tomorrow


----------



## Leo246

Headphones company's , for example, providing option to upgrade headphone to the latest version. 
As, for example, Hifiman or Audeze now with proposal to LCD-4 owners upgrade to LCD-5


----------



## Glokta

@iFi audio  Is there a shortage for the iDSD Signature, can't seem to find one to buy in England?


----------



## iFi audio

Glokta said:


> @iFi audio Is there a shortage for the iDSD Signature, can't seem to find one to buy in England?



No shortages that we're aware of, but please visit our stockist page (https://ifi-audio.com/stockists/europe/). We have multiple resellers in England so this shouldn't be a problem


----------



## Glokta

iFi audio said:


> No shortages that we're aware of, but please visit our stockist page (https://ifi-audio.com/stockists/europe/). We have multiple resellers in England so this shouldn't be a problem


There's only one distributor from that list that has the Signature version and that with at least 2 weeks time lead, hence the question.


----------



## iFi audio

Glokta said:


> There's only one distributor from that list that has the Signature version and that with at least 2 weeks time lead, hence the question.



OK, I'll ask internally where we are with Pro iDSD Signature and will get back to you via PM as soon as there's any info. Thanks!


----------



## Glokta

iFi audio said:


> OK, I'll ask internally where we are with Pro iDSD Signature and will get back to you via PM as soon as there's any info. Thanks!



I appreciate it


----------



## iFi audio

Glokta said:


> I appreciate it



You have a PM


----------



## iFi audio

*iFi does Black Friday. Grab a bargain or an old favourite. *

Check out our new 'refurbished store' at https://refurbished.ifi-audio.com/
(UK, EU and USA only)

Grab a 'as good as new' ZEN DAC or Blue V1 for £99, an original hip-dac for £139, or a iSilencer3.0 for £39 plus lots more.

Check out some old favourites in our legacy bundles - iLink & SPDIF iPurifier, micro iUSB +Gemini USB cable plus other 'oldies but goodies'.

All with an extra 10% off from Friday to Monday to join in with the Black Friday fun.

https://refurbished.ifi-audio.com/


----------



## chaz_flhr

TooFrank said:


> Just opened the box and connected my new used ICAN to the iDSD: Now I get it  Used my stock Stellia XLR cable with my Arya's and haven't gotten to try any more today (listening to Madeleine Peyroux). Even when not using balanced, I get more air, and when balanced: wow. Have to check whether I can upgrade my expensive SE Arctic Signum+ cable from 3.5 mm to XLR. Or maybe buy a cheaper one for new? The Stellia stock XLR is quite stiff.... And how about getting balanced for the HD650s and the Grado's I have? I know - I am babbling, but I am very happy. BTW do you get synergy of using tubes on both devices? And as I don't have any device to store them on, is it OK - taken the heat into consideration - to stack them directly - and does it matter which one is on top? Many thanks


Yes I like the double tube or tube+ then you have X bass,  try some on the Stellia, so many variations.


----------



## iFi audio

chaz_flhr said:


> Yes I like the double tube or tube+ then you have X bass, try some on the Stellia, so many variations.



Yes, flexibility provided by numerous options to play with is one of the major assets of our Pro range.


----------



## hsimsh10

iFi audio said:


> Sounds like a plan @hsimsh10
> 
> I've asked internally and our team can't replicate your issue. Perhaps it's an odd interaction with that Mutec, so trying out Pro iDSD with another clock (if possible) would tell us more. Btw. our support reached out to you yet?


I tried now wirh Sotm SCLK-OCX10 and it is the same problem! The PRO IDSD  - I get error the extern clock is not in sync


----------



## iFi audio

hsimsh10 said:


> I tried now wirh Sotm SCLK-OCX10 and it is the same problem! The PRO IDSD - I get error the extern clock is not in sync



https://ifi-audio.com/faqs/which-clock-to-select/

From what I can tell, your SOtM is a 10MHz clock, so it should work with Pro iDSD's "atomic" setting, but to clarify: you've tried this one and it doesn't work?


----------



## Hoegaardener70

I am surprised that I did not find any comment in this thread on the gryphon. So, if Ifi marketing says that the Gryphon shares the same burr-brown internals as the 3k flagship, doesn’t this mean that I … don’t need the pro idsd anymore (am only using the DAC function, btw, nothing else)? Not sure if this marketing helps pro idsd sales.


----------



## hsimsh10

iFi audio said:


> https://ifi-audio.com/faqs/which-clock-to-select/
> 
> From what I can tell, your SOtM is a 10MHz clock, so it should work with Pro iDSD's "atomic" setting, but to clarify: you've tried this one and it doesn't work?


I replaced cable to SOTM premium cable and now it is working fine. By the way, you can see a message that 10mhz clock is connected if you  start up the Pro IDSD  in Service mode. You can do that if you push the filter selection knob while you start the device up.


----------



## alekc

Hoegaardener70 said:


> I am surprised that I did not find any comment in this thread on the gryphon. So, if Ifi marketing says that the Gryphon shares the same burr-brown internals as the 3k flagship, doesn’t this mean that I … don’t need the pro idsd anymore (am only using the DAC function, btw, nothing else)? Not sure if this marketing helps pro idsd sales.


@Hoegaardener70  there are still differences between those two. For example gryphon is missing Pro iDSD tube modes...


----------



## JaquesGelee (Jan 14, 2022)

Hoegaardener70 said:


> I am surprised that I did not find any comment in this thread on the gryphon. So, if Ifi marketing says that the Gryphon shares the same burr-brown internals as the 3k flagship, doesn’t this mean that I … don’t need the pro idsd anymore (am only using the DAC function, btw, nothing else)? Not sure if this marketing helps pro idsd sales.


You definetly couldn't compare those two devices. Or even do it within other brands. You could find infos about the gryphon in a dedicated thread here.

It is not only a thing to use the same TI DAC Chip in different devices.

Cheers


----------



## deanorthk

Glokta said:


> There's only one distributor from that list that has the Signature version and that with at least 2 weeks time lead, hence the question.


Hey Glotka I am waiting for the Pro Signature too, it was supposed to be avalaible this very week, but my order is still on hold. But I'm beeing wise, the wait should be worth it. You got yours already?
I have tested my TH900 and Audeze LCD GX yesterday with a Violectric V200 10years anniversary amp, and my TH900 responded.. badly, way too fatiguing and a bit too bright on the treble, so I really look forward to see what the pro signature can do.


----------



## Ross Kyle

Hoegaardener70 said:


> I am surprised that I did not find any comment in this thread on the gryphon. So, if Ifi marketing says that the Gryphon shares the same burr-brown internals as the 3k flagship, doesn’t this mean that I … don’t need the pro idsd anymore (am only using the DAC function, btw, nothing else)? Not sure if this marketing helps pro idsd sales.


doesn’t use same exact implementation plus i’m pretty sure it doesn’t have the same amount of them never mind it also having a line stage   inside capable of running headphones


----------



## deanorthk

Just learn that I have to wait till end of january now to get my idsd pro signature...


----------



## Glokta

deanorthk said:


> Hey Glotka I am waiting for the Pro Signature too, it was supposed to be avalaible this very week, but my order is still on hold. But I'm beeing wise, the wait should be worth it. You got yours already?
> I have tested my TH900 and Audeze LCD GX yesterday with a Violectric V200 10years anniversary amp, and my TH900 responded.. badly, way too fatiguing and a bit too bright on the treble, so I really look forward to see what the pro signature can do.



Hey mate, I haven't ordered it in the end, I bought something else. I already had a good dac but I guess I just wanted a new toy to test and tinker with...you know how it is with this illne...aaa...I meant business. 
I love my TH909's and indeed they are quit amp picky with that low impedance, I found them better sounding from the Pro iCan than the Violectric V550.


----------



## iFi audio

Hoegaardener70 said:


> I am surprised that I did not find any comment in this thread on the gryphon. So, if Ifi marketing says that the Gryphon shares the same burr-brown internals as the 3k flagship, doesn’t this mean that I … don’t need the pro idsd anymore (am only using the DAC function, btw, nothing else)? Not sure if this marketing helps pro idsd sales.



Yes, these two products share the same chip, but considering everything around these fine parts, price points and utilities these products really aren't similar. Besides, we've been using Burr-Browns for very specific reasons and their implementation in Pro iDSD and xDSD Gryphon isn't the same. Far from it


----------



## deanorthk

good news my Idsd pro signature was finally sent today, I guess I will have it by this saturday


----------



## iFi audio

deanorthk said:


> good news my Idsd pro signature was finally sent today, I guess I will have it by this saturday



That's excellent news indeed, please feel free to let us know how it works out for you once you have it!


----------



## deanorthk

It is there incredibly beautifull !!

I have tried to setup the ifi network bridge, but despite the idsd beeing visible on my pc, (I can even connect to it via http xxx.xxx.x.x), the upnp app can't find it at all. I'll use USB for now, but I have open a ticket to find a solution


----------



## JaquesGelee

deanorthk said:


> It is there incredibly beautifull !!
> 
> I have tried to setup the ifi network bridge, but despite the idsd beeing visible on my pc, (I can even connect to it via http xxx.xxx.x.x), the upnp app can't find it at all. I'll use USB for now, but I have open a ticket to find a solution


Do you have tried WPS?


----------



## deanorthk

JaquesGelee said:


> Do you have tried WPS?


Well, I have tried both ethernet and wifi connection, they both are working (the idsd tell me wifi connect). but my pc can't find it despite I can ping it, rech the http setup page


----------



## iFi audio

deanorthk said:


> It is there incredibly beautifull !!
> 
> I have tried to setup the ifi network bridge, but despite the idsd beeing visible on my pc, (I can even connect to it via http xxx.xxx.x.x), the upnp app can't find it at all. I'll use USB for now, but I have open a ticket to find a solution



That's good to know that you have it now, congrats!

As for networking, our staff has you covered, but in the meantime you might want to take a look here:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/ifi...are-mqa-and-more.869144/page-20#post-14396981

...where we explain how to set up Pro iDSD in JRiver as an example.


----------



## deanorthk

iFi audio said:


> That's good to know that you have it now, congrats!
> 
> As for networking, our staff has you covered, but in the meantime you might want to take a look here:
> 
> ...


Thanks. Except for Muzo (I can't register, the country choice is bugged) , I can confirm that the pro iDSD is network wise working (I can ping it, I can access its setup page, it shown in Network with the name I have chosen). I don't have Jriver so I can't test through this. One question though, the muzzo app is a must have or it's bypassable?


----------



## iFi audio (Jan 23, 2022)

deanorthk said:


> One question though, the muzzo app is a must have or it's bypassable?



It's mandatory if you'd like to use Pro iDSD's Micro SDHC and Host USB ports plus playback directly from a router or NAS.


----------



## deanorthk

iFi audio said:


> It's mandatory if you'd like to use Pro iDSD's Micro SDHC and Host USB ports plus playback directly from a router or NAS.


Thanks, and ifi support team replied to my ticket so we are exploring solutions.
I don't need muzzo then since i'm not using micro dhc or usb host from router, thanks for the clarification  
The problem seems to be only the ifi bridge app, everything else work, including streaming from my iphone.


----------



## iFi audio

deanorthk said:


> Thanks, and ifi support team replied to my ticket so we are exploring solutions.
> I don't need muzzo then since i'm not using micro dhc or usb host from router, thanks for the clarification
> The problem seems to be only the ifi bridge app, everything else work, including streaming from my iphone.



Understood and I'll leave it to our support staff then. If you have any other questions, please feel free to ask them here or via PM, thanks!


----------



## deanorthk

I've been listening to the latest The Weeknd album, and damn, I do am re discovering my TH900mk2. Bass are there, but tight, controlled, readable. Trebles are not harsh. I've tried a bit of DSD remastering, but I fear my ears are not good enough to judge that level of performance differences


----------



## iFi audio

deanorthk said:


> I've been listening to the latest The Weeknd album, and damn, I do am re discovering my TH900mk2. Bass are there, but tight, controlled, readable. Trebles are not harsh.



Those are brilliant cans and we've been vocal about that many times! They work remarkably well with Pro iDSD and don't need much to really shine. Enjoy!



deanorthk said:


> I've tried a bit of DSD remastering, but I fear my ears are not good enough to judge that level of performance differences



I'm sure that your ears are perfectly capable and all it takes is a bit of time to get used to all filters. After several weeks you'll have your favorite. If I were you I'd use one filter for several days and then engage another for as long. Then I'd go back to the former and eventually one would reveal itself as the one I like more. It's a process, but luckily there's no rush


----------



## deanorthk

iFi audio said:


> Those are brilliant cans and we've been vocal about that many times! They work remarkably well with Pro iDSD and don't need much to really shine. Enjoy!
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sure that your ears are perfectly capable and all it takes is a bit of time to get used to all filters. After several weeks you'll have your favorite. If I were you I'd use one filter for several days and then engage another for as long. Then I'd go back to the former and eventually one would reveal itself as the one I like more. It's a process, but luckily there's no rush


I will follow your advice , as I keep on doing one thing for pleasure : listening to my music


----------



## iFi audio

deanorthk said:


> I will follow your advice , as I keep on doing one thing for pleasure : listening to my music


Sure, please do and keep us all informed about your findings with filters, thanks!


----------



## deanorthk

Just got those :




Howdy. got these today, with the 4.4 connector, so I can test the TH900 in symetrical mode. First thing, as the same volume level, the sound is louder with the 4.4. I'm getting use to the sound of the hybrid noir for the moment, but..... *big smile mode* pleasure leasure mode activated


----------



## TooFrank

deanorthk said:


> Just got those :
> 
> Howdy. got these today, with the 4.4 connector, so I can test the TH900 in symetrical mode. First thing, as the same volume level, the sound is louder with the 4.4. I'm getting use to the sound of the hybrid noir for the moment, but..... *big smile mode* pleasure leasure mode activated


Congrats - looks very much like the Forza cable I bought for my HD650 with an XLR4 to go into the pro ICON (connected to the pro iDSD). I am indeed very pleased with this. But note, the cable was pretty expensive compared with the price of the HPs


----------



## deanorthk

TooFrank said:


> Congrats - looks very much like the Forza cable I bought for my HD650 with an XLR4 to go into the pro ICON (connected to the pro iDSD). I am indeed very pleased with this. But note, the cable was pretty expensive compared with the price of the HPs


Ha ha, thanks! And I remember my days with the HD650, I had it for 4 years, they were a pure pleasure headphone, I really wonder how they would sound with the iDSD!


----------



## TooFrank

deanorthk said:


> Ha ha, thanks! And I remember my days with the HD650, I had it for 4 years, they were a pure pleasure headphone, I really wonder how they would sound with the iDSD!


They do great with the iFi combo. Indeed some days I do choose them over the Stellia, Arya and Grado's. They have an overall good performance and the new cable did make them a bit more transparent and versatile (are the best words I can come up with)


----------



## iFi audio

deanorthk said:


> Just got those :
> 
> Howdy. got these today, with the 4.4 connector, so I can test the TH900 in symetrical mode. First thing, as the same volume level, the sound is louder with the 4.4. I'm getting use to the sound of the hybrid noir for the moment, but..... *big smile mode* pleasure leasure mode activated



Yup, that's Matt's work. You should be pleased with it in comparison to a stock cable


----------



## deanorthk

Unless it's a placebo effect, I've just tested DSD1024 on a song I know by heart almost, that I had just listened through normal bitperfect first.
One word could describe what I hear, like there is more air to the music. My opinion could be biaised, since the Forza cable is also new, but with DSD1024 on, I really hear a difference on that specific song (In Mourning - Colossus)


----------



## iFi audio

deanorthk said:


> Unless it's a placebo effect, I've just tested DSD1024 on a song I know by heart almost, that I had just listened through normal bitperfect first.
> One word could describe what I hear, like there is more air to the music. My opinion could be biaised, since the Forza cable is also new, but with DSD1024 on, I really hear a difference on that specific song (In Mourning - Colossus)



So from this I gather that you like our DSD1024 upsamplig, right  ?

As for this upsampling, it is rather audible, so it's not a placebo you're experiencing


----------



## deanorthk

iFi audio said:


> So from this I gather that you like our DSD1024 upsamplig, right  ?
> 
> As for this upsampling, it is rather audible, so it's not a placebo you're experiencing


Yes you are correct, DSD1024 currently in test. That is with the USB cable included in the package and the USB port of my X299 motherboard, which is FAR from beeing optimised... Waiting for a Roon endpoint firmware upgrade *whoop*


----------



## jclyle

@iFi audio is there any harm in leaving Pro iDSD on all the time when not listening to music? I never use tube option, so no impact to tube life.


----------



## iFi audio

jclyle said:


> @iFi audio is there any harm in leaving Pro iDSD on all the time when not listening to music? I never use tube option, so no impact to tube life.



There's no harm in having Pro iDSD engaged for days, but it's good to turn off audio products not in use in general, especially those which generate heat


----------



## xiamen

deanorthk said:


> Yes you are correct, DSD1024 currently in test. That is with the USB cable included in the package and the USB port of my X299 motherboard, which is FAR from beeing optimised... Waiting for a Roon endpoint firmware upgrade *whoop*


I input hqplayer upsampled dsd256 to ifi pro idsd and further upsampled that to dsd1024 using GTO. Just about every comment I read that's not a good idea, but I like the result.


----------



## iFi audio

xiamen said:


> I input hqplayer upsampled dsd256 to ifi pro idsd and further upsampled that to dsd1024 using GTO. Just about every comment I read that's not a good idea, but I like the result.



HQplayer's upsampling algorithm is solid. Actually, we got feedback from others that they like the effect of data converted there to DSD prior to sending in out to Pro iCAN for further hardware upsampling up to DSD1024.


----------



## marcus2704

I had a discussion with someone yesterday about something I had never considered before, ensuring that the power supply to my equipment is as clean as it can be.  This led me to look at the IFI Power Elite, and wondered if at £300 it is likely to be a worthwhile investment.   I am using the IDSD Pro as my DAC, and I amp my headphones using the ICAN.  Presumeably, I only need the one Elite for the ICAN?   Also given the below, which voltage would I need to buy (5,12,15 or 24)?   Any assistance appreciated!


----------



## xiamen

Pro idsd is 15vdc.I beleive ican is the same, should be marked as such on input. LPSU can be very expensive, I use one but noat the ifi one. I don't have the ican, but if you are looking to have lpsu for both, have a look at the hdplex 300w with 2 outputs voltage configurable.


----------



## iFi audio

marcus2704 said:


> I had a discussion with someone yesterday about something I had never considered before, ensuring that the power supply to my equipment is as clean as it can be.  This led me to look at the IFI Power Elite, and wondered if at £300 it is likely to be a worthwhile investment.   I am using the IDSD Pro as my DAC, and I amp my headphones using the ICAN.  Presumeably, I only need the one Elite for the ICAN?   Also given the below, which voltage would I need to buy (5,12,15 or 24)?   Any assistance appreciated!



Yes, power quality in general is considered as very important and digital devices are components that benefit from it the most. That said, Pro iCAN needs a 15V/4A DC power supply and we have iPower Elite that matches these specs. As for this PSU, we got a lot of feedback how much of an upgrade it is for our non-Signature Pro range; Pro iDSD and Pro iCAN. If you're interested in pushing your Pro iDSD's performance further, iPower Elite is a very nice way to do that.


----------



## Ross Kyle

jclyle said:


> @iFi audio is there any harm in leaving Pro iDSD on all the time when not listening to music? I never use tube option, so no impact to tube life.


I’ve had the OG idsd for nearly 3 years and leave it on in SS permanently no issue


----------



## iFi audio

Ross Kyle said:


> I’ve had the OG idsd for nearly 3 years and leave it on in SS permanently no issue



Yep, it's not an issue, but we always say that it's a good practice to turn off audio devices not in use


----------



## xiamen

Ckuple of questions on upsampling dsd64 to dsd1024. Does the upsample process convert to pcm first. Also if I feed the pro idsd with dsd512, is it a pure direct through or does the filter e. g. GTO come into play.


----------



## Ross Kyle

xiamen said:


> Ckuple of questions on upsampling dsd64 to dsd1024. Does the upsample process convert to pcm first. Also if I feed the pro idsd with dsd512, is it a pure direct through or does the filter e. g. GTO come into play.


As far as I know it’s straight conversion , as for feeding direct it won’t use any digital filter unless you then engage the 1024 DSD conversion on said “fed” 512 on doing that you can engage any of the filters on the IDSD


----------



## iFi audio

xiamen said:


> Does the upsample process convert to pcm first. Also if I feed the pro idsd with dsd512, is it a pure direct through or does the filter e. g. GTO come into play.



Pro iDSD's FPGA upconversion from DSD64 to any other DSD is a straightforward process that doesn't involve PCM and our GTO filter applies only to PCM.


----------



## deanorthk

Well, few months are now gone, and I can't say I'm sad with the iDsd pro signature. But I really, really am looking forward to a firmware upgrade to roon endpoint, it is really for me the key element missing to what is a real jewel. 
I have had nothing but good times with my TH900MK2 with the hybrid Noir cable and the 4.5mm input


----------



## dcguy73

deanorthk said:


> Well, few months are now gone, and I can't say I'm sad with the iDsd pro signature. But I really, really am looking forward to a firmware upgrade to roon endpoint, it is really for me the key element missing to what is a real jewel.
> I have had nothing but good times with my TH900MK2 with the hybrid Noir cable and the 4.5mm input


Um, yeah...firmware/software upgrades are not iFi's strong point. You might be waiting for a while.


----------



## iFi audio

deanorthk said:


> I have had nothing but good times with my TH900MK2 with the hybrid Noir cable and the 4.5mm input



Excellent cans (they look gorgeous!) and cable! Matt is solid!



dcguy73 said:


> Um, yeah...firmware/software upgrades are not iFi's strong point. You might be waiting for a while.



That's a fair comment and we take them into account, thanks!


----------



## deanorthk

iFi audio said:


> Excellent cans (they look gorgeous!) and cable! Matt is solid!
> 
> 
> 
> That's a fair comment and we take them into account, thanks!



I do not have doubts that you guys are working on a way to make the Idsd pro and pro signature roon ready, they are excellent gear, and with the price we have paid, they deserve to fully be that "jack of all trades" that they really are


----------



## iFi audio

deanorthk said:


> I do not have doubts that you guys are working on a way to make the Idsd pro and pro signature roon ready, they are excellent gear, and with the price we have paid, they deserve to fully be that "jack of all trades" that they really are



The subject of Roon isn't lost and our R&D still thinks on how to make it. Although I can't promise anything specific, if that utility is possible to add, at some point it will be. Thanks!


----------



## iMemphis

I just got my iCan in to pair with my iDSD. On the back of the iDSD theres a DC15v DC loop out that I can connect to the iCan. Does anyone know what kind of cable I need for this? Can someone link me a short one on Amazon? I assume if I use the DC loop out, I wouldn't need to run the two power blocks, and I can just use the one right?


----------



## Ross Kyle

iMemphis said:


> I just got my iCan in to pair with my iDSD. On the back of the iDSD theres a DC15v DC loop out that I can connect to the iCan. Does anyone know what kind of cable I need for this? Can someone link me a short one on Amazon? I assume if I use the DC loop out, I wouldn't need to run the two power blocks, and I can just use the one right?


correct , all you need is a dc to dc cable should find cheap ones on Amazon just make sure it has the same nozzle size as the power bricks and it’ll let you run both on one


----------



## iMemphis

Ross Kyle said:


> correct , all you need is a dc to dc cable should find cheap ones on Amazon just make sure it has the same nozzle size as the power bricks and it’ll let you run both on one



Do you happen to know the size I need? I don't see it on the manual , or if its just generic size


----------



## dcguy73 (May 6, 2022)

iMemphis said:


> Do you happen to know the size I need? I don't see it on the manual , or if its just generic size


2.1mm to 2.1mm (barrel connector end size, not length of cable)


----------



## bluesaint

iMemphis said:


> Do you happen to know the size I need? I don't see it on the manual , or if its just generic size


I have spare oyaide connector based premium cable if you want something better than generic.


----------



## iMemphis

bluesaint said:


> I have spare oyaide connector based premium cable if you want something better than generic.



Oh that would be nice! How much for it? PM Me  I am located in LA


----------



## iFi audio

dcguy73 said:


> 2.1mm to 2.1mm (barrel connector end size, not length of cable)



Affirmative, that's the correct size, thanks!


----------



## improwise

(Please let me know if the Signature version has it's own thread)

Not sure what to expect from the AMP in the Pro iDSD Signature, what kind of headphone could I use directly with it and which would require a separate AMP like the iCAN? Could something like the Focal Clear be used directly? What about the Arya? Thanks.


----------



## iFi audio

improwise said:


> Not sure what to expect from the AMP in the Pro iDSD Signature, what kind of headphone could I use directly with it and which would require a separate AMP like the iCAN? Could something like the Focal Clear be used directly? What about the Arya? Thanks.



Most Pro iDSD Signature owners are happy with its in-built amp even for their difficult loads, but some really tough cans (Susvara, I'm looking at you ) would benefit from an external amp that's more powerful. With Clears and Aryas you should be good, thanks!


----------



## chaz_flhr

improwise said:


> (Please let me know if the Signature version has it's own thread)
> 
> Not sure what to expect from the AMP in the Pro iDSD Signature, what kind of headphone could I use directly with it and which would require a separate AMP like the iCAN? Could something like the Focal Clear be used directly? What about the Arya? Thanks.


Power wise my Arya and Stellia are great with just the iDSD pro what you loose without the I can is only sound Tailoring flexibility.


----------



## iFi audio

chaz_flhr said:


> Power wise my Arya and Stellia are great with just the iDSD pro what you loose without the I can is only sound Tailoring flexibility.



That's true, but there's also authority, instrumental separation and ambience, especially in case of headphones tough to drive, thanks!


----------



## TooFrank

iFi audio said:


> That's true, but there's also authority, instrumental separation and ambience, especially in case of headphones tough to drive, thanks!


And this is exactly what I think that the I CAN adds to the table in addition to the iDSD….


----------



## iFi audio

TooFrank said:


> And this is exactly what I think that the I CAN adds to the table in addition to the iDSD….



Thanks, it's always cool to read when other folks see certain connections the same way as we do


----------



## chaz_flhr

iFi audio said:


> That's true, but there's also authority, instrumental separation and ambience, especially in case of headphones tough to drive, thanks!


while I agree it does add more and the combination of the two is better than either alone if on a budget having the i DSD first with easy to drive HP would be my first choice if I was doing it over again. That said the added flexibility and power the iCAN provides is just sublime.


----------



## CrocodileDundee

iFi audio said:


> That's true, but there's also authority, instrumental separation and ambience, especially in case of headphones tough to drive, thanks!


What about ZMF’s 300ohm ones? I’m on the fence here about the iDSD pro sig to drive the incoming Atrium.


----------



## TooFrank

chaz_flhr said:


> while I agree it does add more and the combination of the two is better than either alone if on a budget having the i DSD first with easy to drive HP would be my first choice if I was doing it over again. That said the added flexibility and power the iCAN provides is just sublime.


+1 - I lived very happily with the iDSD for a long time.....then I got a good offer to buy the ICAN.....


----------



## Sebastien Chiu

CrocodileDundee said:


> What about ZMF’s 300ohm ones? I’m on the fence here about the iDSD pro sig to drive the incoming Atrium.



The Pro iDSD can easily drive the Atrium on it's second dB notch no problem.

Source: I had an Atrium on loan from Zach for a bit and tried it! 



TooFrank said:


> +1 - I lived very happily with the iDSD for a long time.....then I got a good offer to buy the ICAN.....



That's how it goes sometimes


----------



## iFi audio

CrocodileDundee said:


> What about ZMF’s 300ohm ones? I’m on the fence here about the iDSD pro sig to drive the incoming Atrium.



Although it's a very flexible DAC in the first place that doesn't feature a separate amplifier circuit, its line driver (...that drives headphones) is very capable. By the looks of ZMF Atrium, the sensitivity of these cans is fairly high (96dB), so they're not crazy difficult to drive and Pro iDSD should handle them.


----------



## iFi audio

Wanted to ask you folks. If you could name just one feature not present in Pro iDSD you'd like to see in its successor (IF it ever happens), what would it be?


----------



## dcguy73

iFi audio said:


> Wanted to ask you folks. If you could name just one feature not present in Pro iDSD you'd like to see in its successor (IF it ever happens), what would it be?


Bass boost! Didn't even have to think twice about that.


----------



## iFi audio

dcguy73 said:


> Bass boost! Didn't even have to think twice about that.



For that it would most likely need a regular headphone amp inside


----------



## Death_Block

iFi audio said:


> Wanted to ask you folks. If you could name just one feature not present in Pro iDSD you'd like to see in its successor (IF it ever happens), what would it be?


Hip DAC owners get free upgrade


----------



## Ficcion2

iFi audio said:


> Wanted to ask you folks. If you could name just one feature not present in Pro iDSD you'd like to see in its successor (IF it ever happens), what would it be?


Roon Ready without the iFi Bridge.


----------



## dcguy73

How about a built-in Zen Stream?


----------



## deanorthk

iFi audio said:


> Although it's a very flexible DAC in the first place that doesn't feature a separate amplifier circuit, its line driver (...that drives headphones) is very capable. By the looks of ZMF Atrium, the sensitivity of these cans is fairly high (96dB), so they're not crazy difficult to drive and Pro iDSD should handle them.


Roon


----------



## hsimsh10

Ficcion2 said:


> Roon Ready without the iFi Bridge.


I completely agree. Should be Roon ready including MQA, PCM 768, DSD 512


----------



## iFi audio

Death_Block said:


> Hip DAC owners get free upgrade



Consider it done.



hsimsh10 said:


> I completely agree. Should be Roon ready including MQA, PCM 768, DSD 512



Point taken!

On the visual side of things, is the current Pro range enclosure scheme still liked here  ?


----------



## Death_Block

iFi audio said:


> Consider it done.


Woohoo! Pro idsd for meeeeeeee


----------



## Ficcion2

hsimsh10 said:


> I completely agree. Should be Roon ready including MQA, PCM 768, DSD 512


When I kept reading about streaming issues it made me completely disregard the Pro iDSD.
The fact that they didnt fix the Signature versions streamer is also ???

How about an update to the Pro iCan? @iFi audio.
Also, whatever happened to AMR’s new DAC?


----------



## iFi audio

Death_Block said:


> Woohoo! Pro idsd for meeeeeeee







Ficcion2 said:


> Also, whatever happened to AMR’s new DAC?



That's in the works and going forward, but we're not rushing AMR. Our engineers have some very cool ideas and as much time as they want to make them happen. Thanks for asking though!



Ficcion2 said:


> How about an update to the Pro iCan? @iFi audio.



Who knows, might happen one day


----------



## dcguy73 (Jul 15, 2022)

iFi audio said:


> Consider it done.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No, not if it limits what you can do internally.

I believe you've said before that certain things (like the Zen Stream's functionality) couldn't be implemented within the constraints of the current size of the enclosure.

It's nice that the current Pro series can fit on a desk easily, but I'd rather see more functionality and better internals, even if that means you have to rethink the chassis size and shape.


----------



## ufospls2

Maybe a bigger chassis with a built in PSU? Or an even bigger chassis and do an all in one pro iDSD+proiCAN Amp section?

Flat black anodised vs silver?


----------



## iFi audio

dcguy73 said:


> I believe you've said before that certain things (like the Zen Stream's functionality) couldn't be implemented within the constraints of the current size of the enclosure.



That's true, there's no space inside to throw in extra utilities.



dcguy73 said:


> It's nice that the current Pro series can fit on a desk easily, but I'd rather see more functionality and better internals, even if that means you have to rethink the chassis size and shape.



Let me ask whether you'd be okay with the same enclosure if it were any bigger?



ufospls2 said:


> Maybe a bigger chassis with a built in PSU?



External PSUs are cool in the sense that one can experiment with them 



ufospls2 said:


> Flat black anodised vs silver?



The entire Pro range would look nice all black, wouldn't it  ?


----------



## chaz_flhr

iFi audio said:


> Wanted to ask you folks. If you could name just one feature not present in Pro iDSD you'd like to see in its successor (IF it ever happens), what would it


1st Fix the streaming at least to blue os level.


----------



## dcguy73 (Jul 17, 2022)

iFi audio said:


> That's true, there's no space inside to throw in extra utilities.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well, if we’re going to revisit the enclosure —

1. The rubber stuff on the bottom is not sufficient for isolation/stacking of equipment. Any revamped Pro series enclosures should have real isolation feet, especially now that you’ve discontinued the iRack for them.

2. The Pro series get pretty warm/hot in their current configuration. The glass bubbles over the tubes look nice, but revised enclosures should have better airflow incorporated to allow the internal parts to breathe more. I’m not suggesting Noctua fans like Burson is using, but maybe (in addition to more strategic holes/openings in the case) providing more space inside the enclosure to allow the internal components to stay cooler. The goal should not be to cram everything into as small a space as possible.

3. “External PSUs are cool…” Of course you’re not going to cannibalize your burgeoning power supply market! External PSUs are what you’ve got going now, and that’s fine. If you aren’t going to incorporate an internal power supply inside the revised enclosures, at least think about bundling in the SupaNova with the iPower Elite (or as an upgrade option when purchasing the Pro series) and fine-tune those power components so they sound best when used with the Pro series (if you haven’t done so already). Maximize our investment in iFi’s products by improving synergy among your product lines.

4. Yes, color options, please. Black would be nice.


----------



## iFi audio

chaz_flhr said:


> 1st Fix the streaming at least to blue os level.



Point taken!



dcguy73 said:


> 1. The rubber stuff on the bottom is not sufficient for isolation/stacking of equipment. Any revamped Pro series enclosures should have real isolation feet, especially now that you’ve discontinued the iRack for them.



Not many folks complained about these rubber bases, but I can understand that many would like to see regular footers. 



dcguy73 said:


> The Pro series get pretty warm/hot in their current configuration. The glass bubbles over the tubes look nice, but revised enclosures should have better airflow incorporated to allow the internal parts to breathe more. I’m not suggesting Noctua fans like Burson is using, but maybe (in addition to more strategic holes/openings in the case) providing more space inside the enclosure to allow the internal components to stay cooler. The goal should not be to cram everything into as small a space as possible.



I hear you, but the entire Pro range was designed as still compact desktop machines meant to run hot (class A) yet stable. Their circuits are okay when it's hot inside 



dcguy73 said:


> If you aren’t going to incorporate an internal power supply inside the revised enclosures, at least think about bundling in the SupaNova with the iPower Elite (or as an upgrade option when purchasing the Pro series) and fine-tune those power components so they sound best when used with the Pro series (if you haven’t done so already).



I don't think that this would work for people not into power cables and that consumer group is rather big. Besides, if one wants to improve a setup's performance a notch, our power cables can be added there later on. 



dcguy73 said:


> 4. Yes, color options, please. Black would be nice.



We'd probably make one color again as per usual, but it's good to know that folks here like black 

Thanks for your input!


----------



## 2thfixr

I have a iDSD Pro signature and iCAN Pro signature.... any benefit to using the iGalvanic and iUSB 3.0 on the USB input or can I just go direct?


----------



## dcguy73

2thfixr said:


> I have a iDSD Pro signature and iCAN Pro signature.... any benefit to using the iGalvanic and iUSB 3.0 on the USB input or can I just go direct?


Dunno about benefits, but putting them in-between will change the sound signature.


----------



## xenithon

Shameless plug here...I've put up a wanted ad in the classifieds, in case anyone is considering selling their Pro iDSD 4.4mm 🙃


----------



## 2thfixr

Not so shameless comment about the Pro iDSD.  It's a fantastic unit, I just replaced my Chord TT2 and M Scaler with the Pro iDSD Signature and Pro iCAN Signature stack.  Leaps and bounds better with any headphone I try.  Being able to switch from SS to tube is a huge plus as well.  Works as a Roon endpoint and MQA hardware unfolding is a bonus.


----------



## JaquesGelee

2thfixr said:


> Not so shameless comment about the Pro iDSD.  It's a fantastic unit, I just replaced my Chord TT2 and M Scaler with the Pro iDSD Signature and Pro iCAN Signature stack.  Leaps and bounds better with any headphone I try.  Being able to switch from SS to tube is a huge plus as well.  Works as a Roon endpoint and MQA hardware unfolding is a bonus.


Just give me only your TT2 and i'll give you another stack.


----------



## 2thfixr

TT2 and M Scaler just got picked up by FedEx 5 minutes ago


----------



## hsimsh10

2thfixr said:


> Not so shameless comment about the Pro iDSD.  It's a fantastic unit, I just replaced my Chord TT2 and M Scaler with the Pro iDSD Signature and Pro iCAN Signature stack.  Leaps and bounds better with any headphone I try.  Being able to switch from SS to tube is a huge plus as well.  Works as a Roon endpoint and MQA hardware unfolding is a bonus.


How does it work as Roon endpoint. 
As far as I know it not  Roon ready


----------



## TooFrank

hsimsh10 said:


> How does it work as Roon endpoint.
> As far as I know it not  Roon ready


Would be surprised if the signature is not Roon ready. The original iDSD Pro is and works just fine


----------



## hsimsh10

TooFrank said:


> Would be surprised if the signature is not Roon ready. The original iDSD Pro is and works just fine


iFI pro IDSD  is not roon ready. 
Yes, you can use  Roon is you connect the Ifi Pro IDSD  to the Roon core server by USB  cable. But it cannot connect via ethernet.


----------



## TooFrank

hsimsh10 said:


> iFI pro IDSD  is not roon ready.
> Yes, you can use  Roon is you connect the Ifi Pro IDSD  to the Roon core server by USB  cable. But it cannot connect via ethernet.


Ok noted -thanks


----------



## 2thfixr

hsimsh10 said:


> How does it work as Roon endpoint.
> As far as I know it not  Roon ready


Works as Roon endpoint without issues.  Does MQA hardware decoding with Tidal, Qobuz streaming, and streaming from my NAS all the way up to DSD all through the Roon desktop and phone app.


----------



## 2thfixr

TooFrank said:


> Ok noted -thanks





hsimsh10 said:


> iFI pro IDSD  is not roon ready.
> Yes, you can use  Roon is you connect the Ifi Pro IDSD  to the Roon core server by USB  cable. But it cannot connect via ethernet.



Can confirm it does connect with Ethernet.  I used it for a few days as Roon endpoint without USB cable plugged in because I was having issues with driver install.


----------



## hsimsh10

2thfixr said:


> Can confirm it does connect with Ethernet.  I used it for a few days as Roon endpoint without USB cable plugged in becauase I was having issues with driver install.


Did you use the roon bridge supplied by IFI?
This is just work around with limited functionality.
If you look at Roon site you can find out that IFI pro IDSD  is not Roon ready nor Roon tested 
Roon also can conect to IFI  PRO  via AirPlay. But this is not Roon ready device ...


----------



## 2thfixr

Don't know what to tell you.  All I had was a ethernet cable connected running Roon desktop client on my desktop PC with WiFi off.  I have a Roon Core server and a NAS with subs to Tidal and Qobuz.  All worked beautifully with no USB cable connected.  In fact, I was only able to use the iDSD pro signature and iCAN pro signature with Roon desktop client because Tidal and Qobuz would not play on the iDSD through their own desktop apps since I didn't have a USB cable connected and I still haven't setup WiFi on the iFI units.  

FWIW I'm running a Roon Core setup on a Intel Nuc 10 with a Synology NAS.


----------



## chaz_flhr

2thfixr said:


> Not so shameless comment about the Pro iDSD.  It's a fantastic unit, I just replaced my Chord TT2 and M Scaler with the Pro iDSD Signature and Pro iCAN Signature stack.  Leaps and bounds better with any headphone I try.  Being able to switch from SS to tube is a huge plus as well.  Works as a Roon endpoint and MQA hardware unfolding is a bonus.


The ifi pro stack is hard to beat not only does it sound great and can power anything you could probably throw at it the amount of sound adjustments available is mind numbing.


----------



## EvilLoz

iFi audio said:


> Wanted to ask you folks. If you could name just one feature not present in Pro iDSD you'd like to see in its successor (IF it ever happens), what would it be?


How about instead of trying to add features, fix the features that are meant to be present in the product as advertised?

Say...for example, the ability to stream from network storage (i.e. a NAS) directly, including the capability of network streaming DSD files; with an app controlled by iFi, instead of some third party.

Sadly, it's obvious that the existing models of this product will never have this feature fixed, since it was never really designed into the product, but an afterthought, and can't be added/fixed due to limited ROM or processing power (@iFi audio correct me if I'm wrong)

With all due respect, this is just one man's opinion and use case. When I purchased the iFi Pro iDSD, the intention was to have it as a standalone unit at a quiet part of the house to enjoy music, away from the computer and noisy equipment, but everything seems like a "workaround" to get this working and not all formats for music files can be streamed

I thoroughly enjoyed iFi's lower tier products prior to getting the Pro iDSD, who would have thought going to a higher tier product would lead to disappointments


----------



## hsimsh10

EvilLoz said:


> How about instead of trying to add features, fix the features that are meant to be present in the product as advertised?
> 
> Say...for example, the ability to stream from network storage (i.e. a NAS) directly, including the capability of network streaming DSD files; with an app controlled by iFi, instead of some third party.
> 
> ...


_I completely agree. the WA of IFI  bridge to compensate for lack of Roon readiness is not working well. _


----------



## 2thfixr

EvilLoz said:


> How about instead of trying to add features, fix the features that are meant to be present in the product as advertised?
> 
> Say...for example, the ability to stream from network storage (i.e. a NAS) directly, including the capability of network streaming DSD files; with an app controlled by iFi, instead of some third party.
> 
> ...


It's 3rd party but Roon can do everything you're asking for.   I'm streaming directly from my NAS and streaming using my Tidal and Qobuz subscriptions.


----------



## 2thfixr

hsimsh10 said:


> _I completely agree. the WA of IFI  bridge to compensate for lack of Roon readiness is not working well. _


Roon 100% works with the iFi iDSD Pro.  I'm streaming using Roon as I'm typing this and I pulled my USB cable out on purpose.  It's running straight off my ethernet cable with no WiFi connection as a Roon endpoint.  Works flawlessly but mine is the latest Signature version so can't speak for earlier versions.... BUT from my understanding the only difference is the power supply.


----------



## iFi audio

2thfixr said:


> BUT from my understanding the only difference is the power supply.



Power supply is a major change as are some internal parts, but the streaming module is the same, thanks!


----------



## hsimsh10

iFi audio said:


> Power supply is a major change as are some internal parts, but the streaming module is the same, thanks!


@iFi audio , Is the Signature Roon ready ?


----------



## 2thfixr

I think you're putting too much emphasis on "Roon Ready" and "Roon Tested" certifications.  Plenty of examples online of devices that are not "certified" but work fine with Roon.  Just because it's not certified as Roon Ready or Tested doesn't mean a device won't work with Roon.  As I said, the iFi iDSD connected via ethernet is immediately recognized by my Roon desktop software as a Roon capable endpoint.  Works flawlessly as far as I can see.  Obviously iFi can officially chime in here with regards to official certifications but again, just because it's not Roon certified doesn't mean it doesn't work....  mine works with no issues.


----------



## iFi audio

hsimsh10 said:


> @iFi audio , Is the Signature Roon ready ?



Not officially. Thanks for asking though!


----------



## hsimsh10

hsimsh10 said:


> @iFi audio , Is the Signature Roon ready ?





2thfixr said:


> I think you're putting too much emphasis on "Roon Ready" and "Roon Tested" certifications.  Plenty of examples online of devices that are not "certified" but work fine with Roon.  Just because it's not certified as Roon Ready or Tested doesn't mean a device won't work with Roon.  As I said, the iFi iDSD connected via ethernet is immediately recognized by my Roon desktop software as a Roon capable endpoint.  Works flawlessly as far as I can see.  Obviously iFi can officially chime in here with regards to official certifications but again, just because it's not Roon certified doesn't mean it doesn't work....  mine works with no issues.


It is recognized only via AirPlay or via USB.  AirPlay  is limited to 44.1 frequency and all hi-res files and MQA files and DSD files are downgraded to 44.1 kHz 24 bits. It is not a matter of official or not.  It  is a RAAT protocol that  IFI need to adopt.


----------



## hsimsh10 (Aug 10, 2022)

iFi audio said:


> Not officially. Thanks for asking though!


What do you mean by not officially ?
Is it supported unofficially? How?
I know you guys developped a workaround called IFI  bridge that it is a squeezebox lite. Here, MQA is supported and PCM  files are suported up to 48/24. Any higher quality PCM   stream is downgraed to 48/24. DSD  files are converted to PCM 44/24...
Why do you IFI  guys force me  to purchase a seperate capable streamer or connected by USB  in order to use  IFI  PRO IDSD  to its full capabilities (PCM 768/ DSD 512)?


----------



## 2thfixr (Aug 10, 2022)

hsimsh10 said:


> It is recognized only via AirPlay or via USB.  AirPlay  is limited to 44.1 frequency and all hi-res files and MQA files and DSD files are downgraded to 44.1 kHz 24 bits. It is not a matter of official or not.  It  is a RAAT protocol that  IFI need to adopt.


Ok let’s put this to rest once and for all.  Let me fire up my iDSD and check max resolution


----------



## 2thfixr (Aug 10, 2022)

It would seem you are somewhat correct.  I am not using airplay because there’s no wifi connection setup but it must be using AirPlay even though I’m on a Windows PC not a OSX device and I am indeed limited to 44khz using the iDSD as a Roon endpoint with ethernet cable only.


----------



## 2thfixr (Aug 10, 2022)

Plugging in the USB cable things change and all resolutions open up but I’m still streaming to the iDSD as a Roon endpoint using the Roon desktop app


----------



## hsimsh10

2thfixr said:


> Plugging in the USB cable things change and all resolutions open up but I’m still streaming to the iDSD as a Roon endpoint using the Roon desktop app


Of course. Everything is good if you use USB


----------



## hsimsh10

2thfixr said:


> It would seem you are somewhat correct.  I am not using airplay because there’s no wifi connection setup but it must be using AirPlay even though I’m on a Windows PC not a OSX device and I am indeed limited to 44khz using the iDSD as a Roon endpoint with ethernet cable only.


AirPlay can run from Windows server using  line Ethernet. No need for Wi Fi


----------



## iFi audio

hsimsh10 said:


> What do you mean by not officially ?
> Is it supported unofficially? How?



By my previous post I meant that Pro iDSD is not supported officially, thus it's unsupported. Hope this helps, thanks!


----------



## deanorthk

2thfixr said:


> It would seem you are somewhat correct.  I am not using airplay because there’s no wifi connection setup but it must be using AirPlay even though I’m on a Windows PC not a OSX device and I am indeed limited to 44khz using the iDSD as a Roon endpoint with ethernet cable only.


hi How have you managed to get the idsd to work with ethernet as a roon endpoint? I never have managed to get the app working in order to get that. I don't know if IFI audio still got plan for a firmwere update and a roon certification for officially beeing an endpoint, but I sure am waiting for this.


----------



## iFi audio

deanorthk said:


> I don't know if IFI audio still got plan for a firmwere update and a roon certification for officially beeing an endpoint, but I sure am waiting for this.



That utility is still investigated, but we're not sure whether it's possible or not. If it is, we'll do our best to have it enabled. Thanks!


----------



## Hoegaardener70

iFi audio said:


> That utility is still investigated, but we're not sure whether it's possible or not. If it is, we'll do our best to have it enabled. Thanks!


I love ifi, but the network capability of the idsd is very limited and a Roon endpoint utility would be super useful. And for that, this “investigation” seems to take a very long time…


----------



## iFi audio

Hoegaardener70 said:


> And for that, this “investigation” seems to take a very long time…



Yes, because it's not an easy task since our Pro iDSD wasn't designed to have this utility in the first place. We're aware that folks want it and that's why we don't give up. Hope this helps, thanks!


----------



## iFi audio (Sep 19, 2022)

Although this review isn't really related to Pro iDSD, it's still about our Pro-range Signature product (Pro iCAN) and a brilliant watch all in all made by @Sajid Amit :


----------



## deanorthk

iFi audio said:


> Although this review isn't really related to Pro iDSD, it's still about our Pro-range Signature product (Pro iCAN) and a brilliant watch all in all made by @Sajid Amit :



That was very interesting indeed. The versality is key nowdays, yet one amp or one dac that can do a LOT of things might sometimes fall onto the trap of "gadget", things that are here and you will never use. On the other side, and I talk about the iDSD signature here, at first, I thought "why the hell so many triggers and stuff", but then, you see it through the fact that there are simply SO many headphones/iem out there, that offering a sort of custom tailor to your dac and/or amp can make your gear matches something that oterwise wouldn't. And for me, that is the key to the risk of our passion, we tend to switch gear because one association suddenly does not work anymore. And this review tend to point that, of course some match won't work, most will, and will through adjusting stuff on the amp.
I am totally ok sonically wise with the iDSD, I do admit I would love to test my TH900 with the iCAN, though I can't justify the price for my uses.


----------



## iFi audio

deanorthk said:


> The versality is key nowdays



It's been our priority since the very beginning. That's just the way how we do things and although some folks don't find extra knobs and switches too useful, most still do


----------



## RogueCrusher

@iFi audio and any other iDSD Pro/Pro Signature users.  For a better appreciation and understanding, I’m trying to get descriptions: BOTH sound subjective ones (like with respect to macro and micro dynamics and detail, soundstage, warmth, smoothness, bass + treble extension, midrange presence etc.) as well as technical descriptions for two things - 1. The five filters BP, BP+, GTO, Apodising, and TA.
2. PCM vs DSD/DSD remastering upsampling.  Would you not want all sources remastered using the Crysopeia FPGA engine to DSD1024?  Or better to keep in native format?  And with either, again, what are the sound subjective experiences out there and technical reasons to apply or not apply any remastering/upsampling?

I have some fundamental understanding that GTO and Apodising seem to be minimum phase filters in the sense that all the ringing is happening after the impulse, they reduce latency.  Also Transient Aligned seems to be a linear phase filter allowing for ringing to be more evenly distributed both before and after the impulse, which is closer to the original input signal.  Also, in general that fast/sharp filters are flattest with most extended treble, best at suppressing ultrasonic images from final signal and that slow/smooth filters produce high frequency response that rolls off earlier and they show less ringing.

Expansion on all of these things like ringing, taps, SINC roll-off correction, upsampling limitations etc., I think would be very beneficial for all right?  Edifying what the design intention of each of the filters was for and how they achieve that goal as well as practical applications for choosing each in different scenarios and for various music genre, and lastly of course end-user’s preferences.

I’m new on the forum and just newly acquired the iDSD Pro Signature and iCan Pro Signature stack.  Bypassing my Bluesound Node DAC for my two headphone location’s and also bypassing on my main stereo setup but staying within the BlueOs interface because it’s in several other rooms of my home.

Thanks in advance to all who provide input 👍🏼


----------



## adydula

Wow,

You have so many selections. Only your ears are going to answer your questions.
There are no perfect answers here.
If there were then why would iFI have all these options in their gear?

I have used all the options over time.
My preference is Bit Perfect...with no filtering, no upsampling or DSD stuff.

Being a purist, just give me the original bits please, nothing more, nothing less.

Be interested to here what your experience is?

Alex


----------



## RogueCrusher

adydula said:


> Wow,
> 
> You have so many selections. Only your ears are going to answer your questions.
> There are no perfect answers here.
> ...


So many selections is right!  Didn’t even touch on the SS, Tube and Tube+ which affects the sound output of this DAC as well.  Plus those same three settings on the iCan amp, along with the XBass and 3D selections.  And then factor in several different headphones possibilities into the chain.  

I think ultimately certain settings might pair better with different headphones.
But you are a Bit Perfect guy - for all your cans?

I’m starting with only using the HifiMan Arya Stealths -  SS setting on both iDSD and iCan, no XBass, no 3D, Bit Perfect, no upsampling.   Then I’m going to slowly add/change to experience what I’m hearing and feeling, while always using the same playlist.

Still interested in other people’s preferences and what filter(s) they ultimately landed on.  As well as input from the iFi’s side of the equation as to what the design intention of each of the filters was for and how they achieved that goal as well as practical applications for choosing each.


----------



## deanorthk

I have tested most of the setting, and with my TH900MK2 (cable is upgraded), the most satisfying is bit perfect and DSD1024. 
The TH900 was a bit too shiny in the upper range, but this is gone, and not decause someting was cut out. Just it seems to me that this is now full of details, accurate, still V shape but that's how my headphone is, but in all kind of music, it brings out  what I like.
In death metal like Borknagar, Insomnium, In Mourning, it's very important to have fast impact, reading double drums hit, ass line, riff. That, without beeing to clear (all depending on the quality of recording). And that is here
In vocals, jazz, Melody Gardot, Jeff Brubeck, it's with that gently softness that I like. In more modern music (like the C2C tetra album), it's impactfull, and this is really a master test with the track "Le Banquet". 
I really think this is for me the best settings tweaking, though I suspect I was searching for ease of listening, and maybe a bit less about real sound reproduction (anyway the TH900 is not neutral


----------



## iFi audio

RogueCrusher said:


> 1. The five filters BP, BP+, GTO, Apodising, and TA.



I'm sure that the community will be able to help you out with this one and there's some info in various reviews about these filters. Thanks!



RogueCrusher said:


> 2. PCM vs DSD/DSD remastering upsampling. Would you not want all sources remastered using the Crysopeia FPGA engine to DSD1024? Or better to keep in native format?



Filters are a matter of taste. Some folks like them a lot and others stick to the pitperfect playback, but there are no bad choices here, just preferences and options to play with. Pro iDSD was designed to provide as many as we could and I think that makes this product quite special


----------



## adydula

RogueCrusher said:


> So many selections is right!  Didn’t even touch on the SS, Tube and Tube+ which affects the sound output of this DAC as well.  Plus those same three settings on the iCan amp, along with the XBass and 3D selections.  And then factor in several different headphones possibilities into the chain.
> 
> I think ultimately certain settings might pair better with different headphones.
> But you are a Bit Perfect guy - for all your cans?
> ...


Playing and listening is part of the fun, but it can be very confusing. Your brain and how it "listens", the WIDE variety of music and quality of the music, mood, amount of alcohol consumed plays into all this and then there is our subjective bias, likes and dislikes.

It comes down to your personal preferences for sure.

For me after years and years of stuff...30 + amps, 10 + dacs, and countless headphones I have sold most and kept what I think are the best for me.

Two of the cans I have kept are Final Audion D8000 Pros and Audio Technica ADX 5000, and a set of HD 650's.

For the D8000 Pros, bit perfect most all the time. Explored all the others and its very hard for me to really tell if there is any real world difference in the discernable
sound. With the ADX 5000's similar to the really open, airy sound of the senn 8XX series, I sometimes use the first xBass setting with them...any more it starts to loose 
the sound signature that I like about them...

To me the Bit Perfect allows you to get a NOS sound with no filtering so you can here the original recording with no ones idea of how to make it "better". This is my baseline.

I will say the iFI iDSD into the iCan Pro in this mode is pretty much as good as it gets. Adding the other filters, and settings vary from this baseline. 

For an experiment here, I listen to the BP mode for a few hours, then try say GTO filter...for a few hours, then switch back to BP, 9 times out of 10 my brain tells me the BP is a better mode...for me. YMMV. Done this with many other of the options, and this is one of the reasons I bought this stuff...to see for me etc.

At the end of all this I could be happy without all the settings now. But I has to go thru this stage as well. 

Many other much lower cost gear out there that provide a similar BP sound for me. 

Enjoy playing and testing!

Alex


----------



## RogueCrusher

iFi audio said:


> I'm sure that the community will be able to help you out with this one and there's some info in various reviews about these filters. Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> Filters are a matter of taste. Some folks like them a lot and others stick to the pitperfect playback, but there are no bad choices here, just preferences and options to play with. Pro iDSD was designed to provide as many as we could and I think that makes this product quite special


Thank you for your reply.  It really is quite special and exactly the reason that I landed on it after auditioning many other DACs both in the lower and higher price range.  

I see you are rightfully “punting” a little bit with respect to subjective interpretations for the filter’s effects, but I would still love elaboration on exactly what iFi’s design intention was for each of the filters and how the engineers/design team feel they have achieved that goal (the more specific and nitty gritty the better).

Still curious as the


----------



## RogueCrusher

adydula said:


> Playing and listening is part of the fun, but it can be very confusing. Your brain and how it "listens", the WIDE variety of music and quality of the music, mood, amount of alcohol consumed plays into all this and then there is our subjective bias, likes and dislikes.
> 
> It comes down to your personal preferences for sure.
> 
> ...


Thanks Alex, great insight.  You forgot about the possible effects that THC could throw into the mix. 😮‍💨💨


----------



## adydula (Oct 3, 2022)

RogueCrusher said:


> Thank you for your reply.  It really is quite special and exactly the reason that I landed on it after auditioning many other DACs both in the lower and higher price range.
> 
> I see you are rightfully “punting” a little bit with respect to subjective interpretations for the filter’s effects, but I would still love elaboration on exactly what iFi’s design intention was for each of the filters and how the engineers/design team feel they have achieved that goal (the more specific and nitty gritty the better).
> 
> Still curious as the


iFI has published some technical explanations on their stuff...its on their website.

https://ifi-audio.com/faq/?filter_faq_category=dac


----------



## RogueCrusher

adydula said:


> iFI has published some technical explanations on their stuff...its on their website.
> 
> https://ifi-audio.com/faq/?filter_faq_category=dac


Thanks, I was able to dig up some more info on GTO filter too.

Quick question unrelated, when I start up the iCan it lights green during initial warm up.  But iDSD initially lights up red during warm up, and then white or orange depending on what I have selected.  Does yours do the same?  Anything to be concerned about?

• Green: warming up
• White: solid-state mode
• Orange: tube mode
• Red: protection mode


----------



## iFi audio

RogueCrusher said:


> I see you are rightfully “punting” a little bit with respect to subjective interpretations for the filter’s effects, but I would still love elaboration on exactly what iFi’s design intention was for each of the filters and how the engineers/design team feel they have achieved that goal (the more specific and nitty gritty the better).



Although I appreciate your curiosity, we don't go too deep into filters. However, we have a nice document that explains our own GTO filter to quite an extent here: https://ifi-audio.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/iFi-audio-Tech-Note-The-GTO-Filter.pdf


----------



## adydula

Pretty strong statement from iFI :

ALL    DIGITAL    FILTERS    FOR    AUDIO    ARE    WRONG.   
ALL    OF    THEM,    INCLUDING    THE    'NO    FILTER'    OPTION.
THIS    IS    WHY    WE    NEED    YET    ANOTHER    FILTER!

What do your ears tell you ?


----------



## iFi audio

adydula said:


> ALL DIGITAL FILTERS FOR AUDIO ARE WRONG.
> ALL OF THEM, INCLUDING THE 'NO FILTER' OPTION.
> THIS IS WHY WE NEED YET ANOTHER FILTER!



Yup, that's ours indeed


----------



## MikeyFresh

adydula said:


> ALL DIGITAL FILTERS FOR AUDIO ARE WRONG.


That rather conflicts with the MQA story, doesn't it? MQA purports to have perfect time domain behavior, and corrects for all deficiencies in all known ADCs, blah, blah, blah.

Are they the only ones who are "right".  All that and a bag of chips, with only upsampling of 44.1/48kHz source files, and a leaky minimum phase filter then? Far out.


----------



## adydula

Only your ears can tell you whats right for you.


----------



## iFi audio

adydula said:


> Only your ears can tell you whats right for you.



Exactly and the more options folks have, the better. At least that's how we at iFi audio see it


----------



## cglin222

iFi audio said:


> Affirmative, that's the correct size, thanks!


Does it sound the same with the dc loop out instead of two separate power block?
Or is it recommended to do this by ifi?


----------



## iFi audio

cglin222 said:


> Does it sound the same with the dc loop out instead of two separate power block?
> Or is it recommended to do this by ifi?



The feedback we got on the subject thus far is that the difference isn't as big as using external PSUs for our Pro range DAC and headphone amp. But in general, a DC loop out from Pro iCAN is a nice starting point. Hope this helps, thanks!


----------



## RogueCrusher

cglin222 said:


> Does it sound the same with the dc loop out instead of two separate power block?
> Or is it recommended to do this by ifi?


Can’t comment on sound but 
“the DC loop is not 15V/4A. It is the difference what the powered unit consumes and what the external power supply unit can supply.

For example, idle the Pro iCAN/Pro iCAN Signature consumes 22W, so only 38W of the 60W the iPower Plus/iPower Elite (15v/4A) can deliver are available to the looped device, less if driving difficult headphones with high power.”

So my takeaway, and preference, is to power each separately with the supplied iPower Elite PSs that come with each unit.  If I were to have to purchase them separately and they weren’t included with the Pro Signature pieces, I would still make that investment.


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## deanorthk

I'm listening to the Tribute to Leonard Cohen that was released a few days ago, and pfiou, what a record! It's gorgeous on the iDSD and the TH900, I'm in love


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## RogueCrusher

deanorthk said:


> I'm listening to the Tribute to Leonard Cohen that was released a few days ago, and pfiou, what a record! It's gorgeous on the iDSD and the TH900, I'm in love


Great recommendation - thanks!


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## iFi audio

deanorthk said:


> I'm listening to the Tribute to Leonard Cohen that was released a few days ago, and pfiou, what a record! It's gorgeous on the iDSD and the TH900, I'm in love



Indeed, Fostex TH900 and Pro iDSD are an amazing match! Great cans btw.


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## iFi audio

*A sneaky peak inside iFi HQ and what makes us tick.*

Back in the middle of the heatwave here in the UK, we invited the guys from Soundstage! Canada across to see the UK HQ in action (and for fish and chips too, of course).

It’s pretty much the first time we’ve done anything like this so we so weren’t sure what to expect or how it would turn out! All in all, it was great fun and a pleasure to do. Vince and Miles have become YouTube stars and we couldn’t have had a better time with Doug and his team. A huge thank you to them for spending the time with us.

We loved it.  And we hope you do too.


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## RogueCrusher

iFi audio said:


> *A sneaky peak inside iFi HQ and what makes us tick.*
> 
> Back in the middle of the heatwave here in the UK, we invited the guys from Soundstage! Canada across to see the UK HQ in action (and for fish and chips too, of course).
> 
> ...



Wonderful insight, I always love behind-the-scenes pieces like this.  It allows for a greater appreciation of the products that I own (in this case from iFi).  Makes me appreciate my gold anniversary edition of the goBar just a wee bit more too.

I got a chance to see the outtakes from the filming before final editing of this piece.  Mr. Luke and Mr. Roberts both confirmed another limited run of the iESL.

Do put me on this list please 😉


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## iFi audio

RogueCrusher said:


> Wonderful insight, I always love behind-the-scenes pieces like this. It allows for a greater appreciation of the products that I own (in this case from iFi). Makes me appreciate my gold anniversary edition of the goBar just a wee bit more too.



Thanks a lot, that's highly appreciated! We make those vids for you folks and comments such as yours make them worth the effort


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## iFi audio

Also folks, we have an ongoing poll re our iESL. In short we'd like to know whether you're any interested in it or not, so please cast your vote here:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/ifi-audio-pro-iesl-the-official-thread.852364/

Thanks!


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## al2813

Hi, I got today a pro idsd dac and am discovering it now. Quick question, I cannot find the direct non digital filter mode - I can only select between the pcm filter mode and the DSD master mode. I am currently playing CDs via SPDIF


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## Sphere 57

al2813 said:


> Hi, I got today a pro idsd dac and am discovering it now. Quick question, I cannot find the direct non digital filter mode - I can only select between the pcm filter mode and the DSD master mode. I am currently playing CDs via SPDIF


I think what you are looking for is 'Bit Perfect' or 'Bit Perfect +'. Twist the control that you push to turn DSD Remaster on or off.


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## al2813

Sphere 57 said:


> I think what you are looking for is 'Bit Perfect' or 'Bit Perfect +'. Twist the control that you push to turn DSD Remaster on or off.



Not exactly. According to the manual there is a first mode with no digital filters, what you’re describing is the second mode (the third being DSD mastering)


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## iFi audio

al2813 said:


> Not exactly. According to the manual there is a first mode with no digital filters, what you’re describing is the second mode (the third being DSD mastering)



The bit-perfect mode is the one without any digital filters. Its purpose is to push all incoming data to a DAC chip without any changes along the road. Hope this helps, thanks!


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## al2813 (Nov 13, 2022)

iFi audio said:


> The bit-perfect mode is the one without any digital filters. Its purpose is to push all incoming data to a DAC chip without any changes along the road. Hope this helps, thanks!


Thanks it does!

is Upnp streaming supported ? My Euphony server can see the upnp end point but cannot stream.
the device has a pretty old firmware and I cannot find a way to upgrade it (the IFI website is asking me for a serial number which I cannot find…). I currently stream from my IFI steamer as upnp end point and the pro idsd is used as a usb DAC, but I am curious to see the sound quality if I stream to the pro idsd directly.…


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## al2813

Update - I was able to update the firmware from 2.00 to 2.08 after finding the bin file somewhere on the web. Unfortunately my unit does not have a serial number not on the unit itself not on the box. I bought the unit second hand and the previous owner probably misplaced the piece of paper where this information was captured. When I used the firmware update utility in WIndows under serial number I saw "000" - could that mean I have a demo unit of some kind?


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## EvilLoz

al2813 said:


> Update - I was able to update the firmware from 2.00 to 2.08 after finding the bin file somewhere on the web. Unfortunately my unit does not have a serial number not on the unit itself not on the box. I bought the unit second hand and the previous owner probably misplaced the piece of paper where this information was captured. When I used the firmware update utility in WIndows under serial number I saw "000" - could that mean I have a demo unit of some kind?


I guess the ifi support page for Download Hub wasn't clear enough with it's *hints*

if you enter any 5 digit number after what the serial number should start with, the page will show the downloads

Hope it works for you too


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## al2813

EvilLoz said:


> I guess the ifi support page for Download Hub wasn't clear enough with it's *hints*
> 
> if you enter any 5 digit number after what the serial number should start with, the page will show the downloads
> 
> Hope it works for you too



Thanks!!! IFI could do a lot to improve their support as well as their documentation and frankly their entire ecosystem. They release incredible products but documentation is sometimes leaving a lot to be desired. 

I do I know if mine is 30020 or 30120? The only thing I can see in my box is that this is V1 of the Pro IDSD. Maybe this means that mine is 30020?


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## EvilLoz

al2813 said:


> Thanks!!! IFI could do a lot to improve their support as well as their documentation and frankly their entire ecosystem. They release incredible products but documentation is sometimes leaving a lot to be desired.
> 
> I do I know if mine is 30020 or 30120? The only thing I can see in my box is that this is V1 of the Pro IDSD. Maybe this means that mine is 30020?


It doesn't matter if it's 30020 or 30120, they both point to the same downloads


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## al2813

EvilLoz said:


> It doesn't matter if it's 30020 or 30120, they both point to the same downloads



Thanks!!


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## iFi audio

EvilLoz said:


> It doesn't matter if it's 30020 or 30120, they both point to the same downloads



That's affirmative. Pro iDSD platforms run on the same unified XMOS chip regardless of hteir serial numbers. Thanks!


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## al2813 (Nov 14, 2022)

So upgraded to 2.15 but UPNP is still too erratic compared to the Zen stream that works like a clock, does DSD over UPNP and matched with a great linear power supply is a hell of a UPNP end point. The Pro IDSD Dac on the other hand is amazing!


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## iFi audio

al2813 said:


> So upgraded to 2.15 but UPNP is still too erratic compared to the Zen stream that works like a clock, does DSD over UPNP and matched with a great linear power supply is a hell of a UPNP end point. The Pro IDSD Dac on the other hand is amazing!



Yup, ZEN Stream can do more than the streaming module in Pro iDSD, which was designed primarily as a DAC. I'm happy to read that you enjoy it used as such, thanks for your feedback


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## TooFrank

Does anybody know: What does the 2.15 do better? Many thx.


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## iFi audio

TooFrank said:


> Does anybody know: What does the 2.15 do better? Many thx.



Just to clarify, in comparison to previous firmware versions? And by 'better' you mean sound quality, or something else? Thanks!


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## iFi audio

Also folks, just so you know, we have something cool regarding this year's Black Friday here:

https://ifi-audio.com/ifi-black-friday-2022/


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## JaquesGelee

TooFrank said:


> Does anybody know: What does the 2.15 do better? Many thx.


I don't have any release notes, except "Bug Fixes" on official site.

So, i think they cleaned out some firmware related SRQ's and "new" remote functionality, when using signature with non-siganture devices stack. Firmware of both is the same. I guess there have been no big improvements.

But at all, only ifi could answer your question.


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## iFi audio

JaquesGelee said:


> I don't have any release notes, except "Bug Fixes" on official site.
> 
> So, i think they cleaned out some firmware related SRQ's and "new" remote functionality, when using signature with non-siganture devices stack. Firmware of both is the same. I guess there have been no big improvements.
> 
> But at all, only ifi could answer your question.



That's correct, our 2.15 firmware fixes some bugs and separates some utilities (MQA, GTO filter). Thanks!


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## dericchan1

Hi everyone, I have picked up a ifi Pro (non signature version) upgraded from the Neo.

Can someone advise for a power supply upgrade (manual suggested 9v - 18v) will a 15v ipower x or a 15v ipower elite works? (I suppose the ipower elite 24v won’t?)

I currently have a Keces p3 lps at 16v/3A not sure if that would work???

Cheers
Deric


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## dcguy73 (Dec 14, 2022)

dericchan1 said:


> Hi everyone, I have picked up a ifi Pro (non signature version) upgraded from the Neo.
> 
> Can someone advise for a power supply upgrade (manual suggested 9v - 18v) will a 15v ipower x or a 15v ipower elite works? (I suppose the ipower elite 24v won’t?)
> 
> ...


The Keces will work. The 15v iPower Elite would be the equivalent. I've used both the Keces P8 and the iPower Elite with mine. There are some differences, but I wouldn't say one is necessarily better than the other.


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## iFi audio

dcguy73 said:


> The Keces will work. The 15v iPower Elite would be the equivalent. I've used both the Keces P8 and the iPower Elite with mine. There are some differences, but I wouldn't say one is necessarily better than the other.



Thanks! Here let me just add that any DC power supply rated at 15V/4A will do


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## dericchan1

Hi ifi, but I believe the ipower elite is only rated 15v/3A ?


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## iFi audio

dericchan1 said:


> Hi ifi, but I believe the ipower elite is only rated 15v/3A ?



Ach, that's correct, now I remember that we have a bug in our manual that we should fix ASAP. 15V/3A it is


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## dericchan1

iFi audio said:


> Ach, that's correct, now I remember that we have a bug in our manual that we should fix ASAP. 15V/3A it is


A silly question perhaps, do you recommend leaving the ifi pro idsd turned on all the time as some other dacs manufacturers recommended? Or you are fine to turn it off at the end of the night?

Cheers

Deric


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## iFi audio

dericchan1 said:


> do you recommend leaving the ifi pro idsd turned on all the time as some other dacs manufacturers recommended?



Although it's fine to leave Pro iDSD powered on as long as you like, we recommend turning off audio components when they're not in use


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## MLGrado (Dec 15, 2022)

As a iDSD PRO owner (4.4mm Pentaconn, non signature version) I am about to put it through a set of measurements for the sake of curiosity.  Right now I have an older but NOS pair of GE 5670 tubes in it; I will be testing with those in place and then I am going to roll in a NOS pair of Tesla 6CC42 that got here perfectly safe from Kiev, Ukraine. 

I just finished testing the other end of the iFi pricing spectrum which you can read all about it here.

https://www.euphonicreview.com/blog/ifi-zen-v2-test-review

Also just for fun, I am going to have a deep look at what is going on inside my RME ADI-2 PRO FS R Black Edition. 


Also, please note I am giving away that iFi ZEN V2.  No requirements to win except just put your name/email in the comment section on the list here.  Absolutely anyone is free to enter.. no action of any kind other than saying 'I want it' in a comment is required.  Computer will pick from names at random on December 25th 2022.  Happy Holy-Days to all!

Again, here is the link for the giveaway.  As nice at the ZEN DAC v2 sounds and measures, getting a practically new one for free?  Wow.  What a lucky day for somebody.  Just remember to thank EuphonicReview.com

https://www.euphonicreview.com/blog/ifi-zen-v2-test-review


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## iFi audio

MLGrado said:


> As a iDSD PRO owner (4.4mm Pentaconn, non signature version) I am about to put it through a set of measurements for the sake of curiosity.  Right now I have an older but NOS pair of GE 5670 tubes in it; I will be testing with those in place and then I am going to roll in a NOS pair of Tesla 6CC42 that got here perfectly safe from Kiev, Ukraine.
> 
> I just finished testing the other end of the iFi pricing spectrum which you can read all about it here.
> 
> ...



That's a very nice gesture of you re ZEN DAC V2 and one impressive review on top of that. Thanks a lot


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## dericchan1

Hi ifi, just picked up the idsd pro tonight, reading the manual there is an option using the left knob to switch polarity. Can you please explain what that does and in what situation do I need to use it?

Thanks

Deric


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## JaquesGelee

dericchan1 said:


> Hi ifi, just picked up the idsd pro tonight, reading the manual there is an option using the left knob to switch polarity. Can you please explain what that does and in what situation do I need to use it?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Deric


This for phase switching, when having any issues in your chain. If you don't experience any audible difference, keep it on +.

Cheers


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## dericchan1

So I have picked up the Pro IDSD on Monday and been too busy to set it up in my system. Brought it over to a friend's place tonight to run it for the first time in a headphone set up. 

Embarrassing to say, I do not know anything about headphones, my friend has a pair of Grado PS2000e. I suppose they are fairly easy to drive, we did not need to turn on any gain so (at 0db gain) and did not need to crank up that much. Using Hqplayer as playback DSD256 7ECV2 and turn on the DSD1024 remaster mode. Impression as follows:

Solid state mode was very clean, detailed, neutral sounding

We both thought the tube mode was the best mode, a touch smoother, things seem to open up a bit more, but still very clean, detailed sounding

Tube + mode was a no for us, things open up further more, but tubey, distorted sounding in a bad way (perhaps a tube upgrade to WE396A would help?)

Overall it was a great listening experience as a newbie in the headphone world - well until we listened to his Aqua La Scala DAC to the Thoress HP amp/preamp. That combo was a big step up (so was the price), as you can immediately tell the sound opens up more, bass dig deeper, overall a more refined sound.

I don't believe that Thoress and Aqua combo completely blew me away compared to the PRO tho, I think I would be happy to use the HP amp of the PRO still, and honestly considering the HP AMP in the PRO is really a complimentary add-on to the dac, I have to say it did pretty well. Have to do some research on HP to match the amp tho.

I should be able to find sometime (hopefully) to hook up the PRO to my 2.2 speaker system tomorrow and will report back how I like it.

Cheers

Deric


----------



## iFi audio

dericchan1 said:


> So I have picked up the Pro IDSD on Monday and been too busy to set it up in my system. Brought it over to a friend's place tonight to run it for the first time in a headphone set up.
> 
> Embarrassing to say, I do not know anything about headphones, my friend has a pair of Grado PS2000e. I suppose they are fairly easy to drive, we did not need to turn on any gain so (at 0db gain) and did not need to crank up that much. Using Hqplayer as playback DSD256 7ECV2 and turn on the DSD1024 remaster mode. Impression as follows:
> 
> ...



Thanks a lot for your impressions Deric! We're familiar with Thoress, so you had to listen to their DFP model, right? Thanks again!


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## dericchan1

Yup the DFP model!!


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## dericchan1

Finally get a chance to hook up to my 2.2 speaker set up tonight - listened to the Lady Blackbird album 

I was not expecting much improvement from the dac upgrade from the NEO since I use the exact same hqplayer digital filter and modulator set up for the PRO and the NEO (merely hoping to add a bit more tube magic to the sound). Was I wrong!!!! The sound is at least a couple notches up and I am only using solid state output stage on the dac!!!!

Warmth and neutrality is retained but the sound is much more refined and much more detailed retrieved!!! Wow!!!

Thanks IFI, I think you have hit a home run on the pro


----------



## iFi audio

dericchan1 said:


> I was not expecting much improvement from the dac upgrade from the NEO since I use the exact same hqplayer digital filter and modulator set up for the PRO and the NEO (merely hoping to add a bit more tube magic to the sound). Was I wrong!!!! The sound is at least a couple notches up and I am only using solid state output stage on the dac!!!!



That's good to hear, thanks a lot! As for the DAC in-built in NEO Stream, we think it's quite great as an extra feature, but a nice external DAC will still make a difference


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## dericchan1

iFi audio said:


> That's good to hear, thanks a lot! As for the DAC in-built in NEO Stream, we think it's quite great as an extra feature, but a nice external DAC will still make a difference


Just curious, I was using the ifi neo dac not the stream. Is the neo stream dac = the neo dac?


----------



## iFi audio

dericchan1 said:


> Is the neo stream dac = the neo dac?



They're not quite the same but about similar in terms of sound quality. There's no way of comparing them however, one can't isolate NEO Stream's DAC.


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## Fastnbulbous

My iDSD died -- it's only just over 3 years old, ugh. It was always more than I needed, though I have the stack with iCAN and iESL. I haven't changed the settings in 2 years. I'm checking with iFI to see what it would take to repair, but if I have to replace, might downgrade to a Schiit Modius or something.


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## dericchan1

Sorry to hear that. I would get ifi to fix it, it’s an incredible unit. Makes me wonder what might be the cause of a flagship dac just died on you.

Deric


Fastnbulbous said:


> My iDSD died -- it's only just over 3 years old, ugh. It was always more than I needed, though I have the stack with iCAN and iESL. I haven't changed the settings in 2 years. I'm checking with iFI to see what it would take to repair, but if I have to replace, might downgrade to a Schiit Modius or something


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## Fastnbulbous

Makes me wonder too. I take good care of my gear. Just days after the 1 year warranty ended, unit itself made a horrible noise when set to tube or hybrid. I didn't use the tube much, so didn't think that would have died already, so I think it's just a bad unit. I just kept it on solid state -- the light display started degrading the past couple years too.


----------

