# Home-Made IEMs



## Bilavideo

George Bush (41) liked to say it and say it oft: 

 Nat gonna do it.
 Nat gonna.
 Wouldn't be prudent.
 Not at this juncture.
 I'm gonna take a pass.
 Maybe later.

 Well screw that! I'm gonna do it. I'm going to make my own triple driver IEM, codenamed The Bilavideo 1. I'm going to order the drivers and get to work. I'm going to make Dr. Frankenstein look like Mister Rogers.

 It's gonna get ugly.
 It's gonna get funky.
 It's gonna cook your cookies.
 It's gonna be fun.


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## Ynis Avalach

That I wanna see!
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 I wish you much luck and may you succeed!
 Greetz Ava


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## Good Times

What drivers are you getting? I didn't even know you could get them as seperate components.


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## Bonthouse

Just subscribed to this thread


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## ezzieyguywuf

Good luck!


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## elliot42

Subscribed. This should be interesting. I wish you all the best in your adventure, hope the results are good.


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## MASantos

This sounds interesting, but if you could post some useful information, like the drivers you'll be using,parts sourcing, plans for enclosure(molds?) cable and so on would be far more useful that poetry...


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## krmathis

Best of luck! You may need it...


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## qusp

subscribed; this is gonna be a bit of fun. best of luck tuning them without the specialized equipment.


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## Bilavideo

DRIVERS

 My drivers are going to be the CI-22955 and the TWKF-30017. The CI-22955 is the bigger of the two, and cheaper. Mouser has it for $26.19 per driver. The TWKF is the "world's smallest dual driver" and sells for $51.44 per driver. Add shipping and you have an idea of the price of the drivers themselves. I went with Mouser because it sells in single units. Digikey has minimum-order requirements that exceed my experimental budget. My wife is going to kill me as it is, but Mouser dead is currently more manageable than Digikey dead.

 I went with Knowles Acoustics because they seem to be the obvious first choice. I couldn't find a lot of competition and the Knowles website Subminiature Speakers :: Knowles was useful in sorting through the plethora of choices. The CI Series is a popular choice. As the site puts it, the CI Series represents "Knowles' largest and most powerful receiver. With its high efficiency and a 143dB SPL maximum output, the CI receiver provides high acoustic power." There are six choices in the CI series, all of which have identical stats except in port location and impedence. Of these six, only two were in stock at Mouser: the 22955 and the 22960. The 22955 had the lower impedence (68 vs. 400 @ 1kHz). 

 By itself, the 22955 would make an interesting single driver. The datasheets on all six CI drivers were identical in frequency response, which either means they hired the same people from the movie The China Syndrome to pencil whip - or photocopy - the same datasheet six times or it really doesn't matter. Similar to frequency response graphs used at Parts Express, no claims are made about frequency response below 200 Hz. With no damping, the 22955 puts out a min/max of 111/117 at 200, sustains 115/121 at 500 and continues peaking into midrange with 125/131 between 750 Hz and 1 kHz. 

 But the 22955 is not a dedicated woofer. It's a wide-range speaker that continues to put out 124/130 from 1.7 to 1.2 kHz, 120/128 from 2.8 to 3.3 kHz, 113/119 from 4 to 4.7 kHz and a minimum of 98 dB through 5.5 kHz. After that, HF performance drops off around 6 kHz. This is not the kind of driver that will impress the most demanding trebleheads but its strong output in the lower register makes it useful as a woofer. With a filter and/or crossover, it could provide good bass reinforcement, which is why it seems to be popular among IEM manufacturers.

 I always get a chuckle when I see someone post their hard-won, high-end, custom-made acrylic earpieces online and there - staring back at us through the transparent plastic - is this $26 driver bearing the stamp "22955."

 The smaller, more expensive TWKF comes in only one model: 30017. Knowles calls this "the world's smallest dual balanced armature receiver" and says it's "designed for pro-audio in-ear applications" and "enables customized cross-over systems to achieve target frequency response in a package size smaller than the ED Series." At $52 per driver, it's twice the price of the 22955 but offers dual drivers (what Knowles calls a "unique woofer/tweeter design") that has greater HF extension. A much smaller driver (5.00mm x 2.73mm x 3.86mm vs. 9.47mm x 7.18mm x 4.10mm for the CI), it has lower sensitivity (95 vs. 125) but lower impedence 43 ohms at 1 kHz/31 at 500 Hz. 

 This relatively new and expensive dual driver outputs less than the CI (usually around 95-96 dB throughout most of its frequency range) but provides an unusually flat response throughout. In lab tests, the undamped TWFK put out 96 dB at 100 Hz, maintained a slight ascent to 97 dB at 200 Hz and continued the slightest gradual descent to 95 dB all the way through 1 kHz. From 1 kHz to 2 kHz, it produced a slight dip (of 94 dB to a rise of 97 dB) before "spiking" to 104 dB just before 3 kHz. At around 3.4 kHz, the TWKF started to roller-coaster a bit to 93 dB at 5 kHz to 97 db at 6 kHz before rolling off to 74 dB at 10 kHz. 

 With such an even response throughout, it's not hard to anticipate the TWFK being used as a high-end dual driver, the expensive 2/3 of a triple driver or doubled as the heart of a four-driver IEM. Size permitting, it could even be tripled. Compared to the CI, it's expensive but the performance specs show great value even at a premium price.

 I considered doubling the TWFK but decided against it "at this juncture." (Nat gonna do it. Wouldn't be prudent.) I want to work out the kinks in other areas before putting that much expense into the drivers alone.


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## Billyk

Subscribed; Very cool indeed. I look forward to your success.


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## robm321

Good luck! You are a pioneer...


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## Bilavideo

Thanks!


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## sugrhigh

Also subscribed.
 Any ideas on whether it'll a universal or custom fit?


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## El_Doug

this is just too exciting! I anxiously await progress reports


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## Bilavideo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sugrhigh* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Also subscribed.
 Any ideas on whether it'll a universal or custom fit?_

 

When the drivers come, I'm planning on using what I have, so my first experiments will be with universals, but I'm shopping mold makers and, so far, I've been pleasantly surprised at the amount of competition and variety available.


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## -=Germania=-

Honestly, I was looking at the same thing. However, I was looking more at adding a treble driver with the dual driver handling everything below 7khz. Though, still haven't found an ideal driver to do this. The CI driver is more than enough for the woofer. 

 For the molds I was going to do silicone molds and there is clear epoxy used in custom jewelry which would be ideal. You can also get dyes for the epoxy. I was planning on using acetate with printed custom art for implanting on the outside. 

 The hard part I have found is to get pin holders for the removeable cable. 

 The best part of all this is that you can find these resources at your local art store and craft store. 

 Was am just going to use my current iems to make the silicone mold. 

 The question is where to crossover the CI driver. 

 Maybe this gives you some ideas. Right now I have other projects taking my time and money, buti would be willing to help out.


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## Nausicaa

Subscribed. I hope to hear of your success soon!


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## Bilavideo

You know, if a company purchased enough of these drivers, the total cost of the drivers would be $115/IEM. The total cost of a double-TWFK four-driver setup would be less than $150. That's just the drivers, but wow.


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## Nausicaa

They probably get discounts from buying more than one at a time, or buying directly.


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## Ynis Avalach

Wow, I'm also eagerly waiting for this project to make progress. I couldn't decide if to buy dual IEM od triple one, but DIY!?! Hello, I'm in!


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## sugrhigh

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bilavideo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_When the drivers come, I'm planning on using what I have, so my first experiments will be with universals, but I'm shopping mold makers and, so far, I've been pleasantly surprised at the amount of competition and variety available._

 

Universal is a good place to start for sure I just figured someone making it them self would just go custom but that's good.
 As far as mold goes, if you need CAD work done let me know cause I would love to help out with the project and if it saves you some money even better


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## Bilavideo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sugrhigh* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Universal is a good place to start for sure I just figured someone making it them self would just go custom but that's good. As far as mold goes, if you need CAD work done let me know cause I would love to help out with the project and if it saves you some money even better_

 

Wow! That's cool! Thanks!

 You're right. Why stop at a universal if you can go for a custom? My thinking is this: When the drivers arrive, the day after tomorrow (probably after 6 p.m. Eastern, because I'm always the last stop for my local UPS delivery guy), I'm going to take a lot of pictures, with hopes of posting them here. You don't get many pictures of these things, either from Knowles Acoustics or elsewhere, so I think various pictures of the drivers, in a real environment and from a variety of angles, are overdue. I want to hold them in my hand and give the curious an idea of their relative size. For some, that may be unnecessary, but I'm sure there are those out there who'd like a view of them outside any molds and in an environment a little more familiar than a small pic in a catalog.

 Early on, I intend to solder some wire and experiment with them in different capacities. Each driver has a diminutive sound tube. I'd like to hear what it sounds like to do nothing more than place one or both in the vicinity of my ear canal. (Freaky, huh?) I'd like to also take some acoustical tubing and try different configurations. One experiment I'd like to try is to connect the tubing directly to a variety of ear pieces, just to see what these drivers sound like before they've been properly housed. In short, I'd like to try a few things, soundwise, prior to encapsulating them.

 Project #1 will be the CI-22955 by itself, with a variety of universal fittings and configurations. With tongue firmly planted in cheek, I am calling this the Bilavideo 1.

 Project #2 will be the TWFK by itself, as a dual driver, with a variety of universal fittings and configurations. This, you guessed it, will be the Bilavideo 2.

 Project #3 will be the CI-22944 and TWFK paired together, without a passive crossover circuit. I'm curious to see, going in, what these two drivers, with different impedences and different SPL, sound like in the rough. This will be the Bilavideo 3.

 One issue I am attempting to resolve, which is also an issue -=Germania=- has spoken of, is what to do for a crossover circuit. I've built my own crossover circuits in the past. I love doing it. It's really a lot of fun and gives you more of a hands-on experience in designing the "sound signature" of your system. But neither I nor any of my friends have ever built a crossover circuit small enough to fit inside an IEM shell. What's more, I'm not even sure about the necessity or utility of a crossover circuit here. Passive crossover circuits perform two functions: (1) They protect tweeters from being blown to bits by the wattage of a typical woofer; and (2) They separate frequencies so that different specialized speakers are able to do their job efficiently. After all, even if woofer wattage didn't give your $400 tweeters a stroke, who would want their tweeter to think it's a woofer? As I've run systems with and without crossovers (without blowing up anything), my more immediate issue was to keep my woofers from trying to sound like a tweeter. Without a decent crossover setting, woofers end up handling signals best leave to a midrange and tweeter, giving dialogue a kind of Darth Vader tone (Not every actor should sound like James Earl Jones in need of a cough drop).

 But the mere claim, by a headphone maker, that an "integrated passive crossover circuit" is part of the mix, is not much to go on. It's a bit more complicated than that. If there's a crossover, at what frequencies it it set? What components are being used? With the kind of minimal wattage running through an IEM driver, how much is a crossover needed, at least to protect the driver? Having seen some of these little grease stains being referred to as crossovers, I'm wondering what kind of quality to expect? How good can a crossover really be when you're working that small? I'm wondering if the "crossover" claim isn't just a gimick.

 Here's another wrinkle to the crossover question: If both of these drivers are really wide-range drivers, to what extent does the crossover issue even apply? The CI-22955 isn't a dedicated woofer; it's a wide-range driver with strong bass and midrange. The TWFK isn't a dedicated tweeter. It's a dual driver with an unusually flat response across the bass and midrange, with extended HF. If both of these are basically wide-range drivers, I'm not sure to what extent an integrated crossover is much more than cosmetic.

 Going in, my assumption is that the use of acoustic filters - which is a mechanical way of controlling frequency output - will be much more influential. Knowles Acoustics sells tubing and dampeners, but the tubing is metal and the dampeners are $100 each, making them beyond the budget and beyond consideration. I'm not sure why tubing would need to be metal or why dampeners would need to cost more than $100, but plastic acoustic tubing - used in hearing aids and medical devices - is actually pretty inexpensive. Acoustic filters are also fairly inexpensive, even when sold by other IEM makers as replacement items. I intend to experiment with these before encasing any of these drivers into molds.

 For those looking to extend their DIY mindset into the world of IEMs, one good source of materials is the world of hearing aids. These folks got here before we did and abound in supplies and materials useful to our particular endeavor. While looking for good acoustic tubing, I got a good chuckle while looking at supplies and materials used by the FBI in maintaining their stock of earpieces. Never in my wildest dreams did I ever envision myself pouring over descriptions of equipment used by the feds. Who knows? Maybe when the Secret Service is walking around, maybe they're just jamming out to the Stones. Hopefully it's not the Grateful Dead or Body Count.

 If it turns out that the CI-22955 and the TWFK don't play well together, because the SPL on the CI-22955 shouts down the TWFK, simple resistors can be used to restrain the CI-22955 the way L-Pads are used to attenuate the mid/tweet and compensate for the 3 dB baffle effect. On my home stereo, my woofers were drowned out by my midrange and tweeters, and I got lousy bass until I bought a pair of L-Pads, which allowed me to scale back the mid/tweet. Through something as simple as volume control, I was able to restore some sense of balance, which unleashed my bass (which then had to be properly sculpted by setting a crossover frequency that would keep the bass from muddying up the midrange).

 The nice thing about using resistors as in-line attenuators is that IEM bass can be properly tweaked. Once we take ownership of the IEM, and use our DIY intelligence to take a more hands-on approach, we won't have to sit at the feet of an IEM manufacturer and content ourselves with their explanations for why we should accept their choices as "good for us." I don't want to turn this into an Apple 1984 Commercial but somebody, preferably a blonde, needs to run forward with a big hammer in hand and hurl it through the big-screen TV so we can unchain ourselves and take control of our own sound.

 With in-line attenuation tweaked according to the listener's tastes, IEMS can become "customized" by their sound signature, and not just by molds. But once we have what we're looking for, we'll be able to take the last step and encase the final product. I can envision an objection having to do with changes in sound after encasement, but if that's the case, why can't molds be made to be opened up, when necessary, for repairs or additional tweakings? Delusions of grandeur notwithstanding, there's no reason why we puny people can't reinvent the IEM to fit our own needs rather than what some company has decided we need.


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## Bilavideo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *-=Germania=-* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Honestly, I was looking at the same thing. However, I was looking more at adding a treble driver with the dual driver handling everything below 7khz. Though, still haven't found an ideal driver to do this. The CI driver is more than enough for the woofer._

 

 I agree with both statements. I have gone through Knowles Acoustics' website and have looked at all of its drivers. Not one of its fits products the description of a dedicated tweeter. Even the TWFK, which has better HF extension than the CI-22955 and which is amazingly flat in both the bass and the midrange, has a much less impressive record at the high end, jumping around before rolling off. If there's a better tweeter out there, regardless of who makes it, I'd be interested.

  Quote:


 For the molds I was going to do silicone molds and there is clear epoxy used in custom jewelry which would be ideal. You can also get dyes for the epoxy. I was planning on using acetate with printed custom art for implanting on the outside. 
 

This is a great idea. I hadn't thought of that. Any info or updates you can add, where possible, would be greatly appreciated.

  Quote:


 The hard part I have found is to get pin holders for the removeable cable. 
 

They exist. They are not proprietary. They are used by a number of brands. 

 HELP ME BATMAN, SUPERMAN, WONDERWOMAN

 If anybody has an idea of what this three-pronged connector, used with the three-prong male jack used on removable cables, is called, we could use your expertise. We want to make this standard with the DIY IEM.

 UPDATE ON CROSSOVERS

 I think we may have a supplier: http://www.minicircuits.com/products/filters_main.html

 MiniCircuits makes a lot of miniature stuff, including surface-mount high/low/bandpass filters. What's more, they build them to spec, so if you want a woofer to cut off at 500 Hz, they can make that happen. If you think that's too high and you want less midbass, you can set a different cutoff frequency, say 460, 380 or 250 Hz. You can customize the crossover frequency! And guess what all this costs? Here's the catalogue: http://www.minicircuits.com/products...rs_sm_low.html. Click on the price column to get a quote. Typically, we're talking about $7-8 per driver. It looks like they have sets where, for $100, you get a bunch of these so you can mix and match until you find the frequency range that sounds right. As Simple Jack would say, "Is this heaven? It makes my eyes rain."


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## Bilavideo

UPDATE

 According to UPS, the drivers are in Jacksonville and on their way. I should have them by sometime tomorrow. When they come, I'll take pictures and post them.


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## sugrhigh

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bilavideo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_MiniCircuits makes a lot of miniature stuff, including surface-mount high/low/bandpass filters. What's more, they build them to spec, so if you want a woofer to cut off at 500 Hz, they can make that happen. If you think that's too high and you want less midbass, you can set a different cutoff frequency, say 460, 380 or 250 Hz. You can customize the crossover frequency! And guess what all this costs? Here's the catalogue: Filters, Surface Mount, Low Pass. Click on the price column to get a quote. Typically, we're talking about $7-8 per driver. It looks like they have sets where, for $100, you get a bunch of these so you can mix and match until you find the frequency range that sounds right. As Simple Jack would say, "Is this heaven? It makes my eyes rain."_

 

Wow that sounds promising. The fact you can do it with an IC instead of individual components will reduce a LOT of stress when cramming it into that small area


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## Bilavideo

OUCH

 I've hit the dumbest little speedbump. The other day, I found a website that had acoustic tubing, which I'll need to connect my drivers to the sound port. That site was so awesome, but I had other things to do and lost track of it. Since that time, I've been unable to find any of the sites that sell acoustic tubing by the roll. It's like an itch I can't scratch and it's driving me nuts.

 If anybody can find a source of acoustic tubing (the sound tubes connecting the drivers to the sound port), feel free to throw me a line before I totally lose my mind.


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## Billyk

This? Here?


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## gates_2

Hey Bill,

 Glad to see you've caught the DIY bug.. Hope that pimeta turned out OK for you

 I'm really looking forward to watching this project progress


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## Bilavideo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Billyk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This? Here?_

 

It wasn't that site, but your post must have triggered something because, after looking at that site, I stumbled onto this one again, and this is the one that had so many useful accessories: https://02c1b43.netsolstores.com/ind...TS&CATEGORY=27.

 That's one headache down. Thanks for the help.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gates_2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey Bill, Glad to see you've caught the DIY bug.. Hope that pimeta turned out OK for you. I'm really looking forward to watching this project progress_

 

Gates! It's great to hear from you. The Pimeta is wonderful. I appreciate the kind word and hope this project doesn't disappoint. There are lots of people who could do a better job at this than what I'm trying to do. Maybe I'm just the crankiest one. When I look at all the information and choices consumers have, when buying loudspeakers, it's funny to realize how often they're left to dine on crumbs when buying an IEM. If you want to build a sound system, you can pick out the components - based on very detailed specs - design your own crossover and otherwise tailor the system to meet your needs. But if you want an IEM, you're left with language off a Howard Johnson menu and rumors. Sooner or later, these two worlds are going to meet. Discerning consumers are going to buy their own drivers, connect their own components and house the whole thing themselves. When they do, a hundred dollars worth of parts won't cost them a thousand.


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## Bilavideo

THEY'RE HERE! 

 The drivers have arrived! I'm so excited! My daughter helped me open up the package and we both were blown away by how truly tiny these devices are. I took some pictures, which I will share here: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/album.php?albumid=643. I haven't wired them up yet, but for fun I have squeezed them into a pair of foamies. I can't wait to wire them up and get some initial impressions of how they sound in the raw.

 For the record, I'm trying not to get my hopes up too high, as these drivers have no crossover or filtering. If it turns out that they sound a bit harsh, that will be okay. I've ordered $36 worth of hearing-aid parts from Soniq, a hearing-aid supply company, way more stuff than I'll use here. I've got all kinds of acoustic tubing and other doo-dads on the way. It may be a couple of days before I'm able to add those refinements to the mix. For now, though, my next step is to get these bad boys wired for sound.


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## ezzieyguywuf

I thought you said you would post pictures as soon as you got them


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## Bilavideo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ezzieyguywuf* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I thought you said you would post pictures as soon as you got them _

 

Ask and ye shall receive. Head-Fi: Covering Headphones, Earphones and Portable Audio - Bilavideo's Album: DIY IEMs


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## pyrokid

wow, this is cool. I was just wondering why nobody had tried this on the car ride home, and I come back and see this. 
 Hope you do well. It would be really cool if you made something that sounded like a UE11 at this price.


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## Billyk

Are you planning on molding them into a solid unit somehow? Don't quit know how to visualize it though. Really like where it's going, those itty bitty drivers are very cool.


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## Bilavideo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Billyk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Are you planning on molding them into a solid unit somehow? Don't quit know how to visualize it though. Really like where it's going, those itty bitty drivers are very cool._

 

The neat thing about this is that there are any number of options. Tonight, I sat down with the CI-22955's and wired them up. I picked them because they're the bigger of the two and my soldering skills are less than spectacular. I also thought it best to leave the more expensive drivers for last. It was probably best that I did. Even after my adventures with the SOIC-8's, just soldering the CI-22955's was a tutorial. These little guys took me to school.

 I just wanted to test them, first to make sure they weren't defective and then to see if they were even usable on their own, without crossovers or mechanical filters. I pulled the plastic center out of a couple of medium foamies and pushed the drivers through. As tends to happen in the middle of a project, I discovered that the jack I was using was crap, so I ended up carefully wiring these little guys to the speaker leads on my home theater. I didn't want to blow either my hearing or these drivers, but when I cranked the volume up, ever so carefully, I got proof that (1) these drivers work; (2) the wiring would hold for now; and (3) even without filters or a crossover, these drivers hold their own. 

 Because of their small size, these drivers can live inside an earplug. Among other things, that means they can be positioned more directly in contact with the eardrum. I've ordered $36 worth of acoustic tubing only to discover, to my delight, that I may not need any of it. A driver that resides in its own earplug is a driver that produces sound that doesn't sound like it has come out of a tube. As I suspected, the amount of bass produced by such a driver is impressive. As I listened to The Who's _Pinball Wizard_, I was impressed by the soundstage of this work-in-progress. To be fair, _Pinball Wizard_ is a pretty airy track, but the clarity of my bare drivers, sitting inside cushions, was a model of transparency.

 They're not pretty yet but to hear them, you'd never know each driver had only cost $26. 

 Tomorrow, when I have more light - and am well rested - I'm going to solder the TWFK's to see if they're in good working order, what they sound like on their own, and perhaps what they sound like together with the CI-22955. I can envision three, maybe four, driver configurations:

 Bilavideo 1 - Single Driver - CI-22955
 Bilavideo 2 - Dual Driver - TWFK
 Bilavideo 3 - Triple Driver combo of CI-2295 and TWFK
 Bilavideo 4 - Quad Driver combo of 2 TWFK's
 Bilavideo 5 - Five Driver combo of 2 TWFK's and 1 CI-22955
 Bilavideo 6 - Six Driver combo of 3 TWFK's
 Bilavideo 7 - Seven Driver combo of 3 TWFK's and 1 CI-22955

 This can go on to the point of absurdity. The "more drivers is better" impulse has to be balanced against another reality: More drivers take up more space. If I can get a single CI-22955 into an eartip, I can get it and as much as two TWFK's (or as many as 4 TWFK's without the CI-22955) before I've run out of space. After that, I'd have to do what everyone is doing now - put the drivers into a shell and substitute tubes for the intimacy of a direct-ear connection.

 At this point, I'm already sold on the direct-ear connection. I think it's the future. It's more immediate and less likely to involve unnecessary resonance. When I listen to music, I'd much rather hear the driver than the tube connecting the driver. But that's me. Now that drivers have miniaturized to this level, there's no reason to keep following the model of the hearing aid, especially when that model was invented decades ago, when hearing aid drivers were enormous. As far as I'm concerned, less is more.


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## saintalfonzo

This is quite the undertaking and I look forward to seeing the results! This is becoming a huge subscription thread for good reason. Good luck; may we be buying your design in the future.


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## Bilavideo

Thanks, saintalfonzo!


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## gilency

One of the most amazing threads in head-fi right now. Subscribed! can't wait for the final product. how much will it sell for??


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## Bilavideo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gilency* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_One of the most amazing threads in head-fi right now. Subscribed! can't wait for the final product. how much will it sell for?? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Thanks for the support! I'm hoping this thread will encourage creative minds to take control of what they put into their ears. The quality of today's IEMs is greater than ever, but there's still a huge gap in the information and options available to consumers of IEMs. In some ways, the world of IEMs is where the audio world was decades ago. Today, if you want to buy a loudspeaker, manufacturers routinely provide the speaker's power handling, voice coil diameter, impedence, frequency range, frequency response, magnet weight, SPL, Vas, Qms, Qes, Qts, Xmax and mounting depth. But if you buy an IEM, they'll tell you how many drivers there are, but not which ones. They'll tell you they use an integrated crossover but they won't tell you what parts they used or where it's set. In the absence of facts, we get wine-taster mumbo jumbo. Mysticism and rumor reign supreme.

 But that can change. When it does, it will become more common for interested consumers to build their own units. "Custom" won't mean the shell fits your ear canal. It will mean that you didn't just get the system you wanted; you took an active role in deciding what that system looks and sounds like. It won't be a battle of the brands; it'll be an array of choices. People will come together, not so much to brag about their brand so much as to exchange ideas on what configurations best meet what needs.

 As I explore this world for myself, I think it would be neat to see what choices could be made on the basis of certain drivers. I wondered, going in, whether you could design a single-driver system around the CI-22955, which is one of several drivers used by several big manufacturers in their triple-driver models. I was pleasantly surprised at how well the CI-22955 performed in that driver-in-the eartip design. Already, I would put my Bilavideo 1 (single driver in-the-eartip design) ahead of par with the $139 PFE, an IEM which many rave about as performing well beyond its price range. My Bilavideo 1 was so clear, so spacious and so bass rich, I think it would make many people happy. But it's a simple design. With a reasonable markup, I can see it selling for $75 to $100.

 The biggest pain, so far, is soldering these little guys. They're so tiny, they're hard to work with, even with a hands free and a magnifying glass. I thought SOIC-8's were a pain! Today, after ruining one driver and almost ruining a second, I came to realize how something as simple as wire, if it's the wrong gauge, can pull these little guys apart.

 But experimentation will give way to a community of DIY'ers, sharing ideas and pushing things to the next level. That community will still have people making products for one another, but the costs will be more reasonable. You'll be paying for someone's time, expertise and ingenuity, not for a corporate pyramid, advertising and a business model where you try to sell the cheapest crap you can for the highest possible price.


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## kostalex




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## saintalfonzo

Take your time, I'm sure your knowledge and perseverance will pay off. I will be anxious to see what you will come up with, as will many others. Just don't rush it.


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## Bilavideo

UPDATE

 I got an email from Tom Hazlett at Knowles Acoustics. In response to my questions about IEM crossover, Tom generously provided me with several documents discussing design options, including crossover. It was a step in the right direction. The following are some suggestions from Knowles:

 1. Back volume venting increases low-frequency amplitude.

 2. The use of inductor coils, in small form factors, causes "saturation effects" and adds distortions to the signal path. Instead, resistors are used to attenuate HF while caps are used to attenuate LF.

 3. HF filters typically involve two resistors and a cap. R1 and C1 form a bridge between the positive and negative wires to create a voltage divider. R2 is set between the bridge and the positive line of the source.

 4. There's a formula for working out the specifics. {(R1 + Xc1)\\Driver}/{R2 + (R1 + Xc1)\\Driver} with Xc1 + 1/(2 x Pl X C1)

 5. If R2 is equal to or greater than 0 ohms, there's no impact on the output vs. frequency response of the transducers (because the circuit provides "pure impedence compensation of the BA transducer(s) connected in parallel." Only the impedence vs. frequency response would be affected.

 6. If R1 is equal to or greater than 0 ohms, the circuit becomes a low pass filter. The woofers is simply rolled off at high frequencies. The corner frequency is defined as Fc = 1/(2Pi x C1 X the driver). The impedence is limited to the value of R2; the second driver will be shorted and not function. 

 7. A low-frequency filter can be "capped" to shape the LF response of the woofer. The corner frequency is defined as (R1 + Xc). The attenuation of this path is capped by the value of R1 for high frequencies. With Xc1 = 1/(2 x Pi x f x C1), corner frequency can be calculated.

 8. The magnitude of mid/high attenuation defines the peak ratio in the bass response and is a function of R2/R1.

 9. Because the external ear is bypassed and the ear canal blocked, the natural response of an adult ear canal is about 3kHz. Earphones have to compensate for "the loss of canal resonance," making it difficult and undesirable to target a perfectly flat response. 

 10. Earphone testing is problematic because it requires the use of an acoustic coupler (to simulate the seal of an eartip in the ear canal). The choice of couplers affects frequency response. Test results above 9 kHz are often inaccurate and unreliable.

 11. IEMs are more efficient than loudspeakers. Less than 1 mW is needed to achieve rated sound output; less than 3mW is needed for maximum output. Earbuds, on the other hand, may require 15mW or more to achieve maximum output.

 12. Dampers (a/k/a acoustic resistors) attenuate HF and HF frequency peaks. 

 12. Because impedence rises with frequency, adding a resistor reduces LF but it also improves LF headroom.

 13. "Earphone exit tubes are commonly sized at 2.2 mm ID to accept Knowles BF damper plugs." A larger ID maximizes HF.

 14. The length of the exit tube affects location and amplitude of HF peaks. An increase moves the 2nd and 4rd peak to the left (lower in frequency) as well as its amplitude. A decrease moves them to the right (higher in frequency) and reduces their amplitude. It's a tradeoff between optimal bandwith and smoothing the frequency response.

 15. ED series drivers typically need damping to smooth HF. Dampers are positioned at the end of the exit tube. BF plugs are available with various resistance values to smooth resonance peaks. TWFK drivers have extended HF response and "may benefit from smoothing of high frequency peaks." With no damper, there's a spike between 600 and 800 Hz, from 112 to 121 dB. A 330 ohm damper reduces this spike to 115 dB and sets its occurrence at between 500 and 600 Hz. A 680 ohm damper virtually levels it.

 16. TWFK drivers have enough HF response that no increase in the exit tube diameter is desirable.

 17. The recommended cap for the TWFK is .82uF. A lower value (such as .47uF) slightly increases bass (by about 1 dB) helps fill in the recessed mids between 400 Hz and 1kHz, but dramatically increases the HF spike at 1.5kHz (by about 3 dB). At the same time, it lowers HF output from about 4.5kHz and up. A smaller cap (1.5uF) has virtually no affect on bass but adds to the 1.5kHz spike (by 1-2 dB) and moves the 7kHz valley to 2.5 kHz. On the other hand, it provides the most ample HF response from 3kHz onward.


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## Bilavideo

IN MEMORIAM

 Funeral services will be held today for two drivers who were killed in unrelated soldering accidents. CI-22955, $26, and TWFK, $52, both received fatal wounds after head-on collisions with Bill's bad soldering. Investigators on the scene have listed contributing causes to be the underwhelming magnification on Bill's hands-free and the enormity of Bil''s hot tip (Ladies, be warned). When the driver terminals slipped off, snapping tiny leads, the CI-22955 was rushed to surgery where its torso was opened up with a flat-head screwdriver for what turned into an impromptu anatomy lesson. Despite repeated attempts to revive him, CI-22955 died on the table. No attempt was made to save the even smaller TWFK, which frankly had it coming.

 CI-22955 and TWFK are survived by their twins which, while meeting separately, married and live happily together within the left foamy tip of Bill's prototype. Their success together, as possibly the world's smallest three-way unit (the tip is the shell) can best be expressed in the maxim: If this tip's a rockin' don't come a knockin'.

 In the aftermath of this terrible tragedy, Bill has ordered replacement drivers and has purchased a better soldering station and a larger magnification for his hands-free. Friends, don't let friends squint and solder.


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## elliot42

An unfortunate accident... they shall be remembered.


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## Billyk

RIP
 So young, so much promise, in their prime so to speak.

 Did you use separate flux? If not I think it would make it easier to make these sensitive solder joints.


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## Bilavideo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *elliot42* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_An unfortunate accident... they shall be remembered._

 

Soldiers in the cause. Their replacements are on the way.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Billyk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_RIP. So young, so much promise, in their prime so to speak. Did you use separate flux? If not I think it would make it easier to make these sensitive solder joints._

 

I didn't use separate flux or even a decent soldering iron (Thank you, Radio Shack). I committed $76 worth of freshman mistakes, forgetting that soldering has to be practiced, and executed with care. Fortunately, things went better with the other two, so I now have one ear of a triple-driver IEM. While I wait for the other drivers to arrive, I'm going to shift focus to wiring and molding. 

 I've got two ways I can go with the cables. There are two strategies for using detachable cables. One is to simply go with a right angle 2.5mm jack/plug. They're fairly inexpensive and the use of it in this fashion creates a nice swivel. The other is to do the two-prong thing, ready for a high-end replacement cable. I like this latter approach because it leaves the smallest footprint. The problem is that it's harder to find a two-prong female receptor that fits.


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## gilency

And now a prayer for the fallen...


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## ezzieyguywuf

We pour out liquor for our fallen comrades...


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## Nausicaa

Are you using a standard tip? You might consider purchasing a microtip to work with such small drivers.


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## pdupiano

Hi Bill, is there a possibility of taking SUPER UBER ULTRA close up shots of the soldering pad? I would actually suggest using SMT soldering techniques, no microtip needed. I would recommend a good tip for smt soldering + Low melting point solder. and possibly use the same guage wire as they do for tone arms.


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## Bilavideo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pdupiano* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi Bill, is there a possibility of taking SUPER UBER ULTRA close up shots of the soldering pad? I would actually suggest using SMT soldering techniques, no microtip needed. I would recommend a good tip for smt soldering + Low melting point solder. and possibly use the same guage wire as they do for tone arms._

 

Now that I have better magnification, I should be able to provide better close-up shots. Thanks for the tips, no pun intended. That could make all the difference when I make the next run.


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## Billyk

SMT technique definitely. Lots of flux, a little dab of solder on the end of the iron tip and then just touch it to the joint and viola!


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## younglee200

I was always wondering how JH audio got to fit 6 drivers into their new IEM.

 Anyways, a great thread! I hope it goes well.


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## sugrhigh

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *younglee200* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I was always wondering how JH audio got to fit 6 drivers into their new IEM.

 Anyways, a great thread! I hope it goes well._

 

I wonder if they use some sort of "breakout board"
 I have seen it before in other in-ears where the crossover circuit is made using an IC of some sort (or even just resistors and caps) on a tiny circuit board and then have the drivers in a right-angle configuration on a solder pad. So if that's how JH did it, you could "tie" the drivers together based on configurations like:


  Code:


```
[left] -------- 2 tweeters on same solder pad source -> crossover --| -------- 2 mids on same pad -------- 2 lows on same pad[/left]
```

I don't know their combination of drivers but you get the idea


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## Bilavideo

One of the unexpected benefits of the recent soldering disaster is the discovery of a worthy source of drivers: Newark. It turns out that, on the TWFK, Newark has the item back-ordered but charges $16 less per driver than Mouser. A $32 savings in costs of materials is nothing to sneeze at. Go, Newark!

 I've also run across a rival to Knowles Acoustics: Star Micronics, maker of the RBB-O4A/O4B/O4C/O4D/O4F-PS drivers. Of these, the B,D and F series look like the best matches for hi-fi audio, with impedences of 33 for the B and F, and 15.5 for the D. But the proof is always in the pudding. Has anybody heard any of these drivers? Only the C and F actually have "spouts." I'm not sure they're an actual improvement over KA so, for now, I'll probably stick with Knowles Acoustics.

 UPDATE 7/1/09

 The replacement parts have arrived. Time to get back to work.


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## Benaiir

This is gonna get good. Hope it works out for you. Especially a triple driver design for ~$100


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## Bilavideo

NEW ISSUE HEADPHONE CABLE

 I'm looking for the best reasonably-priced solution to the cable question. Does anybody have any suggestions about where to go to get the best bang-for-the-buck in replacement cable so the earphone wires look professional?


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## Saintkeat

you could try some of that teflon cable i see floating around ebay... they sell coils of it in whichever colour you want..


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## gilency

Westone cable is expensive but very nice.


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## blawhh

Subscribed


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## Bilavideo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gilency* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Westone cable is expensive but very nice._

 

I ended up with two solutions to the same problem. After comparing options between Westone, Ultimate Ears and Sennheiser, I went with the Westone ES replacement cable. http://www.westone.com/index.php?loa...=ACCM&offset=2 After I'd done so, Younglee200 told me about a stock of 28 AWG silver teflon wire on Ebay. So, for this project, I'll go with the Westone, but for future projects, I just ordered the silver teflon wire in a variety of colors. I'll probably braid it, sheath it in clear plastic and solder on the gold plated Neutrik 3.5mm right-angle connectors. That should take care of the wire and cable issue (I also got some 32 AWG tone-arm wire for the connections inside the shell).

 Today, I got three more CI-22955's and another TWFK. Yesterday (or perhaps the day before), I got a box of connecting tubes from Micronic. I've got a couple more puzzle pieces to piece together before I assemble it all for the second prototype. But things are coming along.


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## Bilavideo

SOME INFO ABOUT ACOUSTIC DAMPERS

 At the following site, Mid States Laboratories |Modification Links, there's an interesting discussion about the effects of dampers and tubes, some of which I thought I'd share here. For purposes of organization, I'll number these comments as follows:

 1. The number of earmolds that are "modified" in some way is approximately 90%. Experience has demonstrated that an acoustic change produced by an earmold option will result in a more natural sound to a client than one produced in the hearing aid alone.

 2. There is a predictable acoustic change occurring when an earmold is modified with a vent. The following are several general comments on the effects of venting on the low frequencies: .031 vent is primarily a pressure vent and it will have very little effect on the frequency response above 400Hz. .062 to .093 vents will tend to increase the acoustic energy in the frequency range between 500 Hz and 1000 Hz. The acoustic energy increases as the vent diameter increases. .125 to .150 vents will also increase the acoustic energy in the frequency range between 500 Hz and 1000 Hz. However, at some point, the vent may become large enough, in a small ear, to shunt the energy below 1000 Hz. 

 3. Attenuators used in conjunction with earmold modification influence the center frequencies. The amount of effect is determined by the density of the attenuator or damping plug, the number of attenuators used, and the location in the system.

 4. Density is the same as damper resistance or acoustic ohms and it is determined by the material. Sintered balls, fiber plugs, even lambs wool, all create some acoustic resistance and influence the mid-frequencies, some more than others. The greater the density(resistance), the greater the reduction in the peaks of the frequency response. This smoothing effect created by any form of attenuator or damping plug therefore reduces the output and gain of the hearing aid.

 5. There is an additive effect when using dampers. The damping plug will reduce both gain and output. The placement of the damping plug will influence the frequency response. Generally, the closer the damping plug is to the end of the tubing nearest the earmold, the greater the effect. 

 6. All manufactured dampers will produce predictable effects on the frequency response. The dampers available from Mid-States are the 680 ohm, 1500 ohm, and 2300 ohm dampers. Others may be secured and added to the earmold system after it is fabricated.

 7. Horning or trumpeting is a technique used to emphasize the high frequencies in a hearing aid to create a "Horn" in the end of the earmold. The construction consists of an increase in the diameter of the sound channel to a size allowable within the constraints of the canal dimensions.

 8. High frequencies can be enhanced by enlarging the bore of the sound channel. 

 9. Another earmold modification technique which increases the experience of high frequencies is to shorten the canal. 

 10. The reverse is also true. The most effective way to "choke" or reduce high frequencies through earmold modification is to reduce the diameter of the bore or lengthen the canal or both.

 11. A pressure vent is recommended for all molds where possible. This improves the comfort factor greatly. 

 12. For high frequency emphasis on a short canal and a large vent is a common choice. Also consider using a bell bore. 

 13. For frequency response smoothing and alteration, consider Killion of Acoustic Horn construction. The vent may be used for pressure equalization, increase of low frequency response, or reduction of low frequencies. 

 14. Standard vent sizes are: small - .031, medium - .062, large - .125. Suggested bore sizes are: small - .055, standard - .118, large - .125. 

 15. Tubing length and diameter will cause changes in location and height of the frequency response peaks in a predictable fashion. 

 16. Moisture build-up in dampers is a common problem. Reduction of the moisture is possible by using an air blower, or the dampers can be replaced. 

 17. Accurate measurement of tubing and placement of dampers is essential to maintain published frequency responses. 

 18. Ear canal sizes will vary and could therefore affect final frequency response curves. 

 19. The higher the ohm rating for dampers, the greater the attenuation. 

 20. More attenuation occurs as the damper is moved closer to the earmold, however, this also increases the moisture build-up.

 Phonak also has an interesting article about Acoustic Tuning, which is accessible here: http://www.phonak.com/com_028-0580-xx_focus_2.pdf

 Acoustic Options http://www.perfect-seal.com/acoustic.html also has a straight-forward introduction to the three methods of "acoustic control." Among other things, it says:

 Dampers

 1. Lambs Wool - The first damping material used with hearing aids. The density of the lamb’s wool determines the damper effect. It is effective, but not easily controlled. 

 2. Sintered Steel Pellets - A series of steel pellets with different degrees of porosity which give different levels of acoustic resistance.

 3. Star Damper - Star dampers are made of silicone and have no moisture build-up problems. They must be cut to different lengths and measured to know the exact effects.

 4. Knowles Acoustic Dampers - These dampers are a refinement of acoustic control. Each damper is in a metal housing with a color coded plastic screen at one end. There are six dampers available: 680, 1000, 1500, 2200, 3300, and 4700 in Ohm values. Knowles Acoustic Dampers are the most convenient to use, but moisture build-up can be a problem.

 5. In acoustics, the belling of a tube will enhance high signals passing through the tube. If a tube narrows toward the end, the high frequencies will then be reduced. Many of today’s hearing instruments produce high frequency signals out to 7000-9000Hz. Therefore it is important that the tube and earmold not restrict the resonance in the sound channel and cut off the high frequencies. Thus, in many fittings, a horn of some kind may be essential.


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## Bilavideo

I just got another two packages in the mail. The first was from Mouser, which sent me a pair of Knowles Acoustics drivers BK-26824. http://www.head-fi.org/forums/member...-ci-22955.html 

 These are among KA's most price-friendly drivers. They're a little smaller than the CI-22955 but larger than the TWFK. With an impedence of 29 ohms (16 at 500 Hz), these should be quite easy to drive. KA has no specs on them beyond an SPL of 129 and a sensitivity rating of 118. Because of their modest price ($36/pair), they might make a great introduction to balanced armatures for those who want to taste the difference but don't have a lot of money to do it with. Given the "house sound" of the BK series, they may also make a good midrange driver, especially with the right acoustic filter. 
 Last night, I found KA filters on the cheap at Microsonic at $13 a package. http://www.head-fi.org/forums/member...m-damper.htmlI don't know exactly how many filters there are in each package, but it's like buying a package of nails. KA recommends 680 ohm dampers, so I bought a package of 680s and a package of 1000s. There are filters that go all the way up to 4500 ohms, but there's no need to buy up the store before hearing these.

 My second package was a box of materials, from Microsonic, for making ear impressions. At this stage, the goal is still to start with universals before fully committing to customs. On the other hand, I think the average "universal" could be greatly improved. Those who profit from the premium price of customs have little motivation to let their lower-priced universals directly compete with them in either fit or aesthetics. And while every ear is different, there are also similarities that ought to be built upon. Westone is, in my opinion, the king of ergonomics. Their universals are an amazingly snug fit compared to those of rivals. Universals present some compromises - such as the narrow sound tube between the shell and the tip - that may unnecessarily compromise performance. What if a common-sense bridge could be built between the custom and the universal, one that narrowed the gap? Is it possible to make a better universal?


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## WalkGood

Bilavideo, Thanks for the great information!


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## Benaiir

Uhm.... If I were you, I'd buy a bunch of DX orange IEM's, and use the parts/practice


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## threepointone

I think I recall reading some app note from knowles or something about termination options--I think the drivers usually come in multiple termination options (flex pcb being one of them) and that soldering directly to the terminals might not actually be what you're supposed to do. After all, someone along the line DOES have to solder these guys--I suspect these aren't actually manufactured by machine given the fairly small market (at least it used to be small) and the fairly complicated handling of the drivers.

 The last time I opened my E4s (though there was a bad solder joint--it's been over two years with them, and one channel started getting funny frequency response, as if the bass disappeared slightly--turns out it's probably something with the mechanical seal, so there's really nothing I could do), I was able to successfully redo the solder joints on the guys fairly easily. The thing is, there was already a flex PCB from the knowles driver terminals which bent around to fairly large pads that were actually connected directly to the wiring.

 basically, you'll probably want to find some way to do a strain relief on these guys (flex pcb, or anything else) and not attach wires directly to the drivers. btw, the flex pcb was also glued directly onto the drivers, so the flex pcb wasn't going to pull off the terminals itself


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## Bilavideo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *threepointone* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think I recall reading some app note from knowles or something about termination options--I think the drivers usually come in multiple termination options (flex pcb being one of them) and that soldering directly to the terminals might not actually be what you're supposed to do. After all, someone along the line DOES have to solder these guys--I suspect these aren't actually manufactured by machine given the fairly small market (at least it used to be small) and the fairly complicated handling of the drivers.

 The last time I opened my E4s . . . . there was already a flex PCB from the knowles driver terminals which bent around to fairly large pads that were actually connected directly to the wiring.

 basically, you'll probably want to find some way to do a strain relief on these guys (flex pcb, or anything else) and not attach wires directly to the drivers. btw, the flex pcb was also glued directly onto the drivers, so the flex pcb wasn't going to pull off the terminals itself_

 

Wow. That's an excellent suggestion. You captured the heart of it in two words: "strain relief." On the pair I successfully hooked up, I used hot glue as a form of strain relief for the wires I'd soldered in. I didn't know that that was what I was doing; it just seemed like common sense. Afterwards, I wasn't quite sure what reaction I'd get for following up my soldering with glue. What you're talking about would probably work even better. I appreciate the suggestion. I'm already a lot less stressed about the next phase of things because of it.


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## Bilavideo

It looks like I'm going to be doing my own acrylic casting. There are inexpensive kits online but I don't really want to wait for shipping. If anybody knows of a major outlet that carries resin and catalyst, drop me a line. I'm not going to use friendly plastic because of its low melting point (100 degrees Fahrenheit). I also don't want to use anything opaque. I love that transparent/translucent look.


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## kostalex

Where?

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bilavideo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_... acrylic casting. There are inexpensive kits online..._


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## Bilavideo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kostalex* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Where?_

 

Plastic Resin Prices

Clorox - FamilyEducation.com

How to make a simple mold and cast liquid plastic and resin | Wonder How To

plastic resin catalyst - Google Product Search


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## sugrhigh

Hobby Lobby caries an acrylic compound for making "hand print art" with kids.
 They do not have an online store do I can't show you a packaging picture but it's there.
 In the kids craft section I'd suppose


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## Bilavideo

Thanks, sugrhigh!


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## meraj.salek

Subscribed 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Awesome idea Bilavideo, kudos to you 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I've been a lurker in these forums for some time now, only recently registered and this would be my first post 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Wish you luck on your endeavour 

 Cheers


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## Bilavideo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *meraj.salek* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Subscribed 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Awesome idea Bilavideo, kudos to you 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I've been a lurker in these forums for some time now, only recently registered and this would be my first post 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Wish you luck on your endeavour 

 Cheers_

 

Thank you for the words of support. You made my day.


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## Bilavideo

A FEW (ANGRY) WORDS ABOUT IEM CROSSOVERS

 I don't want to belittle all the glamor and mystery being sprinkled and shoveled to the public, but here it is: The "integrated crossovers" referred to in ad after ad are mostly for show. By far, most of the frequency tuning is done mechanically, with filters. I was going to talk about this, using UE as a prime example, but held off out of concern that I'd so offend somebody at UE as to end up on the receiving end of major denunciations.

 Then again, any denunciations would only disabuse my thoughts of any false conclusions. So, here's what I've found. Feel free to correct me where I err.

 1. For all the talk about "integrated passive crossovers," most of these are token crossovers involving a single, low-cost cap, hooked to one wire going into one driver.

 2. The driver being "crossed over" is usually the designated "tweeter."

 3. Unlike serious crossovers in loudspeaker systems, none of the drivers used are specialized drivers. The "tweeter," "midrange," or "woofer" is a wide-range driver. In the loudspeaker world, the only manufacturer I can think of with the brass balls to market wide-range drivers as either woofers or tweeters is Bose. I'm not a Bose hater, but I priced the sats in Bose's $3,000 system, the one with pairs of mid/tweets arranged along room corners - with one driver directly at the audience and the other aimed at the ceiling or wall - and their replacements were something like $3/driver. Even Bose's subwoofer substitute consists of a set of cheap wide-range speakers, crammed into a box with various bafflings and then crossed low enough to produce an acceptable mid-bass.

 4. Lacking specialized drivers, the best an IEM driver can do is employ a combination of crossover, acoustic filtering and tube tuning to produce the psychoacoustic sensation of "powerful bass." The same holds true of the "tweeters" - none of which are reliable past 7 kHz. You'll get some drivers which can push something into 10 kHz, but it's nothing like 100% and anything promised beyond that is blue smoke and mirrors.

 5. On most systems, the "crossover" claim is puffery bordering on outright fraud. Where, in the audio world, would anybody brag about a "crossover" that only affected one driver, the "tweeter," and which then had to be supplemented by various filters? If these "crossovers" are any good, why aren't they employed with the midrange and woofer? How are those drivers being tuned, and if it's really just the filter at work, why do we need a "crossover" for a "tweeter" that isn't really a tweeter and is clearly capable of handling the same signal being sent to the other drivers?

 6. There ARE exceptions, though by how much is anybody's guess. The UE 10 and UE 11 wire up more than one driver. The UE 11, in fact, has the most sophisticated crossover - an SMD capable of handling up to four separate frequencies. And why? Because the UE 11 employs four drivers, the last of which is its "subwoofer." Even then, we are taking about first-order crossovers of the simplest design, really nothing to write home about.

 WHAT I LEARNED ABOUT UE FROM ITS OWN WEBSITE 

 (Note: This is not intended as an expose aimed at UE so much as a heads-up regarding what the entire industry is doing. To its credit, UE's top customs push the industry to do better.)

 Please understand that I am not here to knock UE, the famed pioneer in selling custom-fit, professional monitors to the consumer. I'm just saying that most of the talk about "crossovers" is hype, and that if most consumers were willing to take the time, they'd discover what I've discovered. Understand that I'm not here to run anybody down. I just have my own agenda, which is to make my own in-ear monitors from scratch. I don't feel like paying these companies their mark-up. I feel like I can do as well or better on my own, even if I've come late to the game and have to learn all this stuff on my own.

 What I'm going to show you involves UE because UE at least made it possible for consumers to figure things out for themselves. Most manufacturers do a pretty good job of hiding how things really work. In showing off, UE may have shown too much. Who am I to complain?

 UE has a pretty complicated product line, with four series of earphones (Metro, Super Fi, Triple Fi and Custom). In addition, there's no attempt at symmetry within these lines. Unlike Westone, which has four universals and four matching customs (though it doubles the top universal - UM3 - into the W3 and the UM3X while doubling the bottom custom - ES1 into the ES1 and CR1) UE is all over the place. They have something like 4 metros, 8 super fi's, 2 triple fi's and five customs - three of which are practically the same earphone. It's a mess. It looks like Apple before it took Steve Jobs back.

 If we look carefully at that product line, certain details and patterns emerge. All of the metros are dynamic drivers. Of the 8 super fi's, only the Super Fi 5 Pro claims to have a "crossover," but what it shows on its diagram looks less like a crossover than an O-ring (haha). http://www.ultimateears.com/_ultimat...o_features.php

 In fact, this looks like the "low frequency diaphragm for deep rich bass" displayed in the diagram for the Super Fi 5eb. http://www.ultimateears.com/_ultimat...b_features.php

 It gets weirder. UE trots another mysterious "crossover" on its Triple Fi 10. Look at this diagram and what you'll see looks suspiciously like another mechanical device being fobbed off on the public as an "integrated passive crossover." Well, if it does the job, all power to UE, but it's not what people think of as a crossover. But judge for yourself: http://www.ultimateears.com/_ultimat...o_features.php

 The first actual picture of something that, to me, looks like an actual electrical crossover is the SMD shown in the diagram for the UE4: http://www.ultimateears.com/_ultimat...tom/ue4pro.php

 But look at the fine details. I realize this is a diagram, not a photo, but if you increase the magnification of your screen (from 200% to 400%), you'll notice that this crossover is only serving one driver, the dedicated "tweeter."

 Take a look at the UE5 and tell me if it doesn't look like the same arrangement: http://www.ultimateears.com/_ultimat...o_features.php

 Now look at the UE7 and tell me what you see: http://www.ultimateears.com/_ultimat...o_features.php

 I see one crossover serving what looks to be one driver. It can't be the same crossover serving both drivers, even if you'd like to imagine that little yellow wire heading over to the other driver. What would be the point of having three drivers use the same crossover setting?

 It's not till we get to the $900 UE10 that we see a crossover that looks like a real crossover.
http://www.ultimateears.com/_ultimat...o_features.php 

 Even then, this three-chip crossover is only wiring two drivers. Check the leads. The second driver is a "dual driver" giving the UE10 its status as a "triple driver" phone. But there's only one set of leads for that "dual driver" so the real basis for separate "low and midrange frequencies" is the use of different acoustic filters. To its credit, the UE 10 uses a dual driver with dual sound outlets, something the TWFK doesn't do. This allows the two drivers to have different filters. But let's not kid ourselves about the "crossover." This triple-driver only has two crossover settings - at least electronically.

 Now, look at the UE11, the top of the heap at Ultimate Ears and quite possibly the closest thing the earphone world has to a decent crossover: http://www.ultimateears.com/_ultimat...o_features.php

 Magnify it well and you'll see that we now have three sets of wires to feed "four" drivers. It has a separate tweeter, a separate midrange and a "dual driver, subwoofer." That "dual driver" is UE's version of the TWFK. To provide a real crossover to these three transducers, UE has broken down and purchased a multilayer SMD, one capable of handling up to four separate circuits.

 As far as I'm concerned, this is the only real crossover out there. Everything else is just hype. Try walking into an audio forum and claiming you have an "integrated passive crossover" but it only works with your tweeter, which isn't really a tweeter, just a wide-range driver you've decided to use as a tweeter. They'll ask you how long you've been working for Bose.

 (Note: That last jibe at Bose has to do with the company's Herculean efforts to make mediocre materials sound good, which I think they pull off successfully. In point of fact, Bose uses much more sophisticated crossovers than are found in any IEMs on the market.)


----------



## gspence2000

FYI Bilavideo, the links to ultimateears.com in your post above are broken.


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## Bilavideo

Crap. Thanks for the FYI. I'll see what I can do to fix it.


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## Bilavideo

The links are fixed. I hope this helps others look carefully at how these crossovers are wired up and compare the various definitions of crossover being used.


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## WalkGood

Bilavideo, who makes this multilayer SMD? Vishay or is it custom?


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## vhbaske

I also subscribed to this thread... by the way... could we be discovering here many secrets of manufacturers who say they use in house made components? Some drivers presented here are not new to me... like...[]


----------



## MaoDi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *vhbaske* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I also subscribed to this thread... by the way... could we be discovering here many secrets of manufacturers who say they use in house made components? Some drivers presented here are not new to me... like...[]_

 

well i would understand if people are using standard components, like Westone uses the 22955 in their ES3X as their low frequency driver. But Westone uses custom drivers/receivers for their mid and high, because nothing fits what they want. But defs, i would like to see what Earsonics uses for their Universal and custom monitor...i own the Sm2 from Earsonics...but nooooo way am i taking that apart =)


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## pdupiano

Hi mate, I'm just curious to know how you can place so much stock in diagrams? If they were actual pictures, trust me I'd be behind you 100% but, as far as diagrams are concerned, I normally take them with a grain of salt. 

 I think your absolutely right about the fact that there are no dedicated iem drivers that act as tweeters, subs etc... I figure the only way to have a real dedicated system would be to mix BA and Dynamic armatures. So think of IE8 + ER4P as a good mix for a sub + high end and maybe throw in something as a dedicated midrange driver.

 Don't forget that filters are just caps built into a circuit as high or low pass filters so that the iems become dedicated frequency drivers (not really cross over as they make us think) and then your right that the cross over part comes from mechanically mixing the sound together. 

 I dunno, are there any high end custom head-fiers out there with some nice cameras who can take pics of their UE's so that we can check those pics instead of the diagrams on ue's website? For all we know the cross over may not even have any actual wires.


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## Bilavideo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *WalkGood* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Bilavideo, who makes this multilayer SMD? Vishay or is it custom?_

 

They're not custom. Take a look at this. Products: Ceramic Capacitor Overview

 Vishay also makes them.


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## Bilavideo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pdupiano* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi mate, I'm just curious to know how you can place so much stock in diagrams? If they were actual pictures, trust me I'd be behind you 100% but, as far as diagrams are concerned, I normally take them with a grain of salt._

 

To be sure. These are diagrams, not photographs. Still, the diagrams are telling.

 There are limits to what you can take away from a mere diagram. But when a manufacturer shows you a diagram of its layout, one specifically identifying its crossover, and that crossover (in most cases) fits the profile of a rectangular-shaped tantulum SMD _and is only wired to one driver, specifically identified as the tweeter_, it's worth taking note of.

 Now, for the casual observer, that diagram is pretty impressive. It looks high tech. It's a salesman's wet dream, a color-coded display of all the ingredients that go into these wonderful earphones. I mean, look at the Mona Lisa and smile: They've got multiple drivers, filters, crossovers, you name it. The point of the diagram is that these aren't just speakers with wires soldered into them.

 But in order to make the diagram, somebody had to know what to illustrate. We know the drivers are accurately reproduced, as are the filters. The rectangular boxes, representing the crossovers in most of the diagrams, match up with SMDs, which is what one would use for a low-voltage capacitor in something this small. I'm prepared for the possibility that there's more to the wiring than depicted here, but I'd be at a loss for why they would fail to give themselves less credit than they already do. The SMDs shown in most of the diagrams are not capable of handling multiple frequencies. They're simply very small caps. In most of the diagrams, a single SMD is connected to one driver, which is at it should be. 

 What's more telling is that there aren't multiple SMDs connected to multiple drivers. If they can show you and take credit for one, they could show you and take credit for two, or three. Until we get to the UE 10, it's a single SMD connected to a single driver, and that driver is always the tweeter. When we get to the UE 10, the diagram changes. We get a more complex arrangement, probably a multilayer capacitor array. This diagram is quite different from the others. It has three capacitors positioned on a small PCB. What's more, unlike the crossovers in the other phones, this one is clearly wired to more than one driver.

 I admit, I'm taking UE at its word - or in this case, its diagrams. As you move up the product line, we go from nothing, to very simple crossovers, to more complex ones. It's not till we get to the UE 11 that we get a crossover with three sets of wires connecting it to three different drivers. There may be more to this picture than meets the eye, but what I see is good enough for me.


----------



## Bilavideo

Hey, Pdupiano, I hope that last post didn't come across as defensive. I'm making a case. That doesn't mean what you've said isn't also legitimate. In the end, we are just talking about diagrams. It's just that, after looking hard at those diagrams, I think UE has unwittingly admitted more than perhaps it ever wanted to.


----------



## rds

Thanks for sharing what you've been learning about IEMs! I found post #76 very interesting.

 I'd like to suggest the idea of capturing and embedding those diagrams in the text. I know that's asking a lot, so I'm not even asking. It's just an idea, as those diagrams and links won't last forever.


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## pdupiano

Nah don't worry about it, but I still think it would be really nice if any headfier with a ue pro 11 took some uber close-up shots. I can certainly see where you're coming from, but dont forget, most people who draw diagrams professionally arent always the engineers nd are therefore left to their own interpretations of how the think things function.


----------



## MaoDi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pdupiano* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Nah don't worry about it, but I still think it would be really nice if any headfier with a ue pro 11 took some uber close-up shots. I can certainly see where you're coming from, but dont forget, most people who draw diagrams professionally arent always the engineers nd are therefore left to their own interpretations of how the think things function._

 

Well, lets hope someone takes some photos so we can finally solve this problem =)


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## Bilavideo

I agree. We should enlist the aid of a headfier with customs.


----------



## Bilavideo

diagram
http://www.ultimateears.it/pics_prod...expl_large.jpg

 real pictures - 7th, 8th & 9th pictures down
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...a%3DN%26um%3D1


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## MaoDi

it's hard to see stuff in the real pictures...can't relaly tell can only see two drivers


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## Currawong

Awesome stuff, I look forward to the final result.


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## Bilavideo

I just got an e-mail from Tom Hazlett over at KA. I'd asked him about what drivers KA considered its top contenders as either woofers or tweeters. While suggesting that it's a "very subjective question," he said he's seen the TEC, CI and FK models used as woofers, the ED and FK models as tweeters, and combinations of TED + ED, CI + ED, CI + TWFK (triple) and TEC + TWFK (triple).

 A couple of observations are in order. First, I think we've all seen the CI used as a woofer. That seems to be a no-brainer. Lots of pictures of customs, when blown up, show the CI on the outside, with its model number fairly visible. Second, it's interesting that the FK would be used as a woofer, in some designs, and as a tweeter in others. This is suggestive of the shapeshifting nature of BA's. There really aren't any obvious woofers or tweeters. It's what you do with these wide-range drivers that makes all the difference. Third, in dual-driver configurations, the ED may be a popular second driver, probably as a tweeter. Fourth, you'll notice that the TWFK is popular in triple-driver configurations. That's likely because the TWFK is a dual driver, the world's smallest. 

 When I piggy-backed my TWFK on my CI-22955, it was small enough to put the entire apparatus into a de-cored foamy. I was going to do this with the other driver when I had my soldering disaster. One thing I noticed was that there was ample room to piggy-back a second TWFK, to create a five-driver setup - and small enough to fit into (not onto) an eartip. With a 2.55mm minijack (let alone a two-prong wire connector), this would make for an amazing set of tiny shell-less earphones. Even without an "integrated passive crossover" or any filters to tweak the sound, I got amazing sound from my CI-22955 + TWFK combo. I found I had to position them right, to get a good seal, but once I did, it was an impressive combo.

 Point of correction. I was able to wire up the CI-22955 for both ears (which worked wonderfully). I was not able to get the combo in the second ear because of the soldering disaster, forcing me to buy more drivers. What I did notice in the one ear (with the CI/TWFK combo) was a very cool, dynamic, sound.


----------



## geestring

This is so cool. I'll let you guys deal with the complicated job of finding drivers etc.

 But is it possible for me to start making my own molds and using the drivers inside a cheap pair of jvc marshmallows? Is acoustic tubing what is needed to direct the sound out of the earpiece?

 Heh, Im more interested in making molds


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## Bilavideo

This could be the beginning of a beautiful friendship. I am not a moldsmith. If you can mold shells, I can wire them up, or at least design the configuration.

 By the way, the sound tubes, which I got from Microsomic, are there to compensate for recessed drivers. There is truth to their use as a frequency tuner - longer and narrower lowers the high frequency while shorter and wider opens the high end -but they are not a necessity. The challenge with dynamic drivers is size.


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## MaoDi

Me too, i'm more into making molds then the components themselves. Don't mistaken, i still love electronics i had to recable a Earsonics Sm2 last night, which i did. (Surprisingly, well not really the Woofer in the Sm2 is also the Knowles CI 22955 and the tweeter was i'm not sure what series but it was a Knowles 29689). What i am actually wanting to do is, find mold that will allow me to take apart my Sm2 and bind it together with another earphone for example a pair of dynamic or BA earphone just for fun.

 Ahhh only if i had all the equipment...


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## Bilavideo

The tweeter was ED-29689, which sells for $24.49 through Mouser. That's a good price because Mouser will sell in single units. The price of the CI-22955 (through Mouser) is $26.19. So, not counting shipping, the price of the drivers for a pair of Sm2's is $101.36. The amount of wire used is nominal. The amount solder used is nominal. The cost for an SMD capacitor, especially the single-driver "crossovers" typically tied to a single tweeter, is also nominal (less than $5). The tubes, available from Microsonics, are a few bucks at the most. Once we figure out what filters sound best with these drivers, the cost of two pairs of acoustic dampers is approximately $6 (not counting shipping). 

 So think about this. The drivers on your SM2, which sells for 280 Euros (approximately $393) cost $101.36 - that is, if they were purchased retail. That's about a quarter of the price of an Sm2. Even when you include the other components - the little bit of wire, the few drops of solder, the few millimeters of sound tubing, the six dollars' worth of acoustic dampers, and the cabling - there's a lot of potential for building an Sm2 equivalent for a song and a dance. Right now, my weak link is the acrylic casting. I don't think injection molding is really needed for something whose per-unit value makes it unnecessary for an automated process capable of producing a huge batch of plastic housings. This can be done cheaper and with less efficiency - and still remain worth doing. But that's the process I'm trying to get a handle on now.


----------



## MaoDi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bilavideo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The tweeter was ED-29689, which sells for $24.49 through Mouser. That's a good price because Mouser will sell in single units. The price of the CI-22955 (through Mouser) is $26.19. So, not counting shipping, the price of the drivers for a pair of Sm2's is $101.36. The amount of wire used is nominal. The amount solder used is nominal. The cost for an SMD capacitor, especially the single-driver "crossovers" typically tied to a single tweeter, is also nominal (less than $5). The tubes, available from Microsonics, are a few bucks at the most. Once we figure out what filters sound best with these drivers, the cost of two pairs of acoustic dampers is approximately $6 (not counting shipping). 

 So think about this. The drivers on your SM2, which sells for 280 Euros (approximately $393) cost $101.36 - that is, if they were purchased retail. That's about a quarter of the price of an Sm2. Even when you include the other components - the little bit of wire, the few drops of solder, the few millimeters of sound tubing, the six dollars' worth of acoustic dampers, and the cabling - there's a lot of potential for building an Sm2 equivalent for a song and a dance. Right now, my weak link is the acrylic casting. I don't think injection molding is really needed for something whose per-unit value makes it unnecessary for an automated process capable of producing a huge batch of plastic housings. This can be done cheaper and with less efficiency - and still remain worth doing. But that's the process I'm trying to get a handle on now._

 


 Yes i know they are making a lot of profit, but you have to think that all products have to be shipped there, which you have to pay taxes for and shipping (shipping charges for things have gone out of the roof these couple months, pop...yes soda pop now cost $3 more for a pack of 12 here in Canada because of shipping fees. well anyways, going on even if it was $100 to make, i would've expected that already. But they still have to pay for taxes, labour, and make profit right? So i don't blame them.

 I would think the biggest problem, like you said would be to find a proper housing for everything. Getting something personally made, high quality but not in large quantities.


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## MaoDi

What i want to see is the insides of the Shure Se line...


----------



## Bilavideo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What i want to see is the insides of the Shure Se line..._

 

Scroll down past the pretty girl (easier said than done):

Google Image Result for http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/yhst-94024159501758/1se530blow.jpg


----------



## Billyk

Quote:


 But that's the process I'm trying to get a handle on now. 
 

Have you considered any type of vacuum molding?
 By this I mean placing the mold in a vacuum and drawing the plastic into it from outside the vacuum. It is fairly straightforward.


----------



## vhbaske

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bilavideo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_IN MEMORIAM

 Funeral services will be held today for two drivers who were killed in unrelated soldering accidents. CI-22955, $26, and TWFK, $52, both received fatal wounds after head-on collisions with Bill's bad soldering. Investigators on the scene have listed contributing causes to be the underwhelming magnification on Bill's hands-free and the enormity of Bil''s hot tip (Ladies, be warned). When the driver terminals slipped off, snapping tiny leads, the CI-22955 was rushed to surgery where its torso was opened up with a flat-head screwdriver for what turned into an impromptu anatomy lesson. Despite repeated attempts to revive him, CI-22955 died on the table. No attempt was made to save the even smaller TWFK, which frankly had it coming.

 CI-22955 and TWFK are survived by their twins which, while meeting separately, married and live happily together within the left foamy tip of Bill's prototype. Their success together, as possibly the world's smallest three-way unit (the tip is the shell) can best be expressed in the maxim: If this tip's a rockin' don't come a knockin'.

 In the aftermath of this terrible tragedy, Bill has ordered replacement drivers and has purchased a better soldering station and a larger magnification for his hands-free. Friends, don't let friends squint and solder._

 

These words do not satisfy Authorities, we will investigate further and probably do authopsies to verify, please don't leave the city....


----------



## sugrhigh

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Billyk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Have you considered any type of vacuum molding?
 By this I mean placing the mold in a vacuum and drawing the plastic into it from outside the vacuum. It is fairly straightforward._

 

Vacuum molding is indeed a god send in many situations!
 And, it can be done relatively cheap with a shop-vac, some scrap wood, and plastic+mold


----------



## MaoDi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bilavideo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Scroll down past the pretty girl (easier said than done):

Google Image Result for http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/yhst-94024159501758/1se530blow.jpg_

 

Thanks for that, But i meant real life pictures. Where you can clearly see what drivers they use and how they wired it up. The WHOLE Se line...minus the Se115 as i'm not interested in the Dynamic Driver...


----------



## Bilavideo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Billyk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Have you considered any type of vacuum molding?
 By this I mean placing the mold in a vacuum and drawing the plastic into it from outside the vacuum. It is fairly straightforward._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sugrhigh* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Vacuum molding is indeed a god send in many situations!
 And, it can be done relatively cheap with a shop-vac, some scrap wood, and plastic+mold_

 

My son, Billy (who, ironically is also known as BillyK) keeps suggesting I go that route. I'm going to have to give it another look.


----------



## sugrhigh

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bilavideo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My son, Billy (who, ironically is also known as BillyK) keeps suggesting I go that route. I'm going to have to give it another look._

 

It really is a good method the only problem is if the bottom of the mold is contoured...


----------



## Bilavideo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sugrhigh* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It really is a good method the only problem is if the bottom of the mold is contoured..._

 

I don't think that will be a problem with earphone shells.


----------



## Bilavideo

Okay, I'm finally home. I have to unload a van full of my sister's stuff and sell some earphones I'd advertized in the For Sale section. Then I'll be ready to start putting things together. I have the drivers, wire, filters and tubing. The only elements missing are the caps (which are coming) and the shells.


----------



## Bilavideo

In the "knowledge is power" department, I ran into KA's "Acoustic Interface Design Guide" online at: http://www.digikey.com/Web%20Export/...esignguide.pdf

 For those trying to make sense of KA's offerings, this is a nice little guide. Here's how KA distinguishes its various driver lines:

 TWFK SERIES – Dual Balanced Armature Speaker 5.00 x 2.73 x 3.86 (mm)The world’s smallest dual balanced armature speaker, the TWFK is designed for pro-audio in-ear applications. Enables customized cross-over systems to achieve target frequency response in a package size smaller than the ED Series
 •Single sound port for simplified earphone design
 •Extreme wideband frequency response
 •Unique woofer/tweeter combination
 •Enables leading-edge earphone designs for size and performance

 WBFK SERIES – Wideband Balanced Armature Speaker 5.00 x 2.73 x 1.93 (mm). Same package size as FK Series, WBFK has *extended high frequency response*. It is recommended as a high frequency component to be combined with low/midrange speaker for music earphones.
 •Lower low/mid-band sensitivity compared to FK Series
 •*Best high frequency response of any Knowles element*
 •Combine with low/mid-range speaker forextended frequency response
 •TWFK pairs WBFK with low frequency FK

 FK SERIES – Balanced Armature Speaker 5.00 x 2.73 x 1.93 (mm). The *world’s smallest balanced-armature speaker*, the FK Series is designed for applications where size is the most important design concern.
 •114dB SPL maximum output
 •Two-terminal zero-bias configuration
 •Undamped, screen damped, and internally damped responses
 •Wide range of coil impedances

 FH SERIES – Balanced Armature Speaker 5.09 x 2.80 x 2.59 (mm). The FH speaker represents an *unprecedented combination of ultra-compact size and high SPL output *with efficiencies normally found only in much larger speakers. The FH speaker line brings true high-gain, high-output performance to earphone designs.
 •Undamped, screen damped, internally damped, and Ferrofluid™damped responses 
 •Various port locations, coil impedances, damping options, termination configurations, and frequency responses available
 •Maximum SPL output of 123dB at resonance peak, 109dB at midband (500Hz)*

 WBHC SERIES – Balanced Armature Speaker 5.16 x 3.51 x 3.00 (mm). The advanced design of the HC Series speaker provides extended acoustic bandwidth for hi-fi in-ear speakers when paired with a low frequency speaker.
 •Lower low/mid band sensitivity compared to HC series
 •Combine with low/mid-range speaker for extended frequency response

 HC SERIES – Balanced Armature Speaker 5.16 x 3.51 x 3.00 (mm). Knowles balanced-armature, magnetic technology to give high efficiency, stability and reliability. HC Series *provides increased low frequency dynamic range in a package size equal to FC.*
High-output technology provides double (+3dB) the maximum acoustic output of existing Knowles FC Series speakers
 •Maximum output comparable to Knowles’ ED Series speakerin a package size only 68% as large!
 •Same size and dimensions as Knowles’ EH Series
 •Ideal for applications where small size and high output is required.

 FC SERIES – Balanced Armature Speaker 5.18 x 3.55 x 3.00 (mm). FC Series receivers may be used for small radio communication earphones where ED size does meet package requirements. Rounded corners make it slightly smallercompared to EH Series speakers.
 •Available in High-Output HC receiver version
 •Two-terminal zero-bias and three-terminal center-tapped configurations
 •Undamped, screen damped, internally damped, andFerrofluid™ damped responses
 •Rounded corners for improved fit rates; 10% smaller cross-sectioncompared to EH speaker

 EH SERIES – Balanced Armature Speaker 5.19 x 3.55 x 3.00 (mm). EH Series speakers are approximately 2/3 the size of ED speakers and may be used for small radio communication earphones where ED size does not meet package requirements.
 •Balanced-armature, magnetic technology to give high efficiency,stability and reliability
 •High sensitivity
 •Various responses, including standard, damped and modified
 •Low distortion
 •Self-shielded for low magnetic radiation

 ES SERIES – Balanced Armature Amplified Speaker 5.18 x 3.54 x 3.04 (mm). EH size speaker with integrated Class D power amplifier
 •EH micro speaker, but with internal, highly-efficient, class D amplifier
 •Lower current drain prolongs battery life
 •Lower distortion
 •Available in a range of SPL ratings

 EP SERIES – Balanced Armature Amplified Speaker 6.32 x 4.29 x 2.99 (mm). Based on Knowles’ versatile and popular ED speaker, the EP series adds the benefits of an internal Class-D amplifier. Its compact size and appreciable output power make the EP speaker suitable for a variety of designs
 •Class D amplified magnetic speaker
 •Self-shielded to reduce magnetic radiation
 •125dB SPL maximum output
 •Three-terminal electrical connection

 FED SERIES – Balanced Armature Speaker 6.32 x 4.31 x 2.47 (mm). The addition of ferro fluid to Knowles ED series speakers improves mechanical shock survival and provides peak damping to smooth frequency response.
 •Ferrofluid damped with 2dB, 4dB, or 6dB peak amplitude
 •Superior shock performance and reduced speaker vibration
 •Two-terminal zero-bias and three-terminal center-tapped configurations
 •Numerous port locations and coil impedances

 ED SERIES – Balanced Armature Speaker 6.32 x 4.31 x 2.97 (mm). One of Knowles’ most versatile and most popular speakers, its compact size and appreciable output power make the ED speaker suitable for a variety of instruments.
 •Undamped, screen damped, internally damped, and Ferrofluid™damped responses 
 •Numerous port locations and coil impedances
 •High efficiency and low distortion

 EC SERIES – Balanced Armature Speaker 7.57 x 4.31 x 3.67 (mm). EC Series receivers are commonly used in isolating earphones for radio communication.
 •Similar SPL output to the BK Series
 •Rounded corners on the face opposite the terminal pad
 •34% smaller volume than the BK Series

 TEC SERIES – Balanced Armature Speaker 7.87 x 4.09 x 2.79 (mm). The TEC combines output comparable to the larger BK speaker in an *ultra-thin package*. The TEC is suitable for multi-element earphone designs.
 •Ultra-thin
 •Wideband output
 •DTEC combines two TEC elements
 •Enables small multi-element designs

 DTEC SERIES – Balanced Armature Speaker 7.87 x 4.09 x 5.59 (mm). The DTEC Series combines two TEC speaker elements with a single round port. Case size is equivalent to BK/EF. DTEC provides increased output and reduced vibration compared to a single speaker.
 •Dual elements with single sound port
 •More output than BK in equal package size
 •Reduced vibration compared to BK
 •Improved frequency response compared to BK

 BK SERIES – Balanced Armature Speaker 7.87 x 5.59 x 4.01 (mm). BK Series speakers provide broadband performance at value pricing. They are commonly used for full range in-ear speakers and communications utilizing an earplug design
 •High efficiency and low distortion
 •Various port locations, coil impedances, damping options,terminal configurations, and frequency responses available.

 CM SERIES – Balanced Armature Speaker 8.38 x 16.64 DIA (mm). The CM Series delivers the benefits of balanced armature technology in a compact finishedpackage. The CM is ideal for use in situations where a non-contacting headset is required, but signal voltage is limited – as is common for radios and wireless telephones. The CM also conserves battery power, and provides static shock protection for the user.
 •Balanced-armature, magnetic technology to give high efficiency,stability and reliability 
 •High acoustic efficiency enables sufficient sound output even when limited power is available 
 •In-built static protection 
 •Lightweight, matt-black, plastic housing 
 •Ergonomically designed with rounded edge to fit the concha 
 •High-quality sound output 
 •Tailored bandwidth for superb speech intelligibility 

 SR SERIES – Balanced Armature Speaker 8.84 DIA x 5.00 (mm)At 8.8mm diameter, the SR is the first round balanced armature speaker in the marketplace. SR offers output equivalent to the BK series and *maximizes bass performance*.
 •Round package facilitates earphone designs
 •*Drop-in upgrade for moving coil dynamic speakers*
 •Designed for high volume production
 •Balanced armature technology

 CI SERIES – Balanced Armature Speaker 9.47 x 7.18 x 4.10 (mm). *Knowles’ largest and most powerful speaker*, the CI series is *the speaker of choice*. With its high efficiency and a 143dB SPL maximum output, the CI speaker *provides optimal low frequency performance*.
 •Two-terminal zero-bias and three-terminalcenter-tapped configurations 
 •Various port locations, coil impedances, termination configurations, and frequencyresponses available

 MR SERIES – *Waterproof Speaker *22.12 DIA x 9.3 (mm). The MR Series Assemblies consist of a speaker element attached to a waterproof bellows assembly. They may be panel mounted, and are suitable for outdoor use or repeated submersion.
 •Highly waterproof – no loss of performance after immersion in 15m water 
 •Corrosion resistant 
 •Withstands explosive decompression 
 •Design proven in rugged environments
 •Leads attached
 •High resistance to mechanical shock
 •Acoustically transparent bellows
 •Resists effects of mud, sand, and salt encrustation

 CB SERIES – Balanced Armature Speaker 25.15 x 25.15 x 9.65 (mm). The CB Series Transceiver offers high electro-acoustic efficiency to *conserve power* in push-to-talk radio handsets and other battery operated equipment. The CB is available with mounting pins to facilitate assembly to a PC board. Model CB-23817-000 is designed to survive submersion in water.
 •Excellent sound quality
 •High speech intelligibility, stability, and reliability
 •Suitable for PCB mounting
 •Can function as a microphone or beeper 
 •Various impedances 
 •Face and edge port locations available


----------



## Bilavideo

BILL'S PICKS OF THE LITTER

 TWFK SERIES – *Dual Balanced Armature Speaker *5.00 x 2.73 x 3.86 (mm)The *world’s smallest dual balanced armature speaker*, the TWFK is *designed for pro-audio in-ear applications*. Enables customized cross-over systems to achieve target frequency response in a package size smaller than the ED Series
 •Single sound port for simplified earphone design
 •Extreme wideband frequency response
 •Unique *woofer/tweeter combination*
 •Enables leading-edge earphone designs for size and performance

 WBFK SERIES – Wideband Balanced Armature Speaker 5.00 x 2.73 x 1.93 (mm). Same package size as FK Series, WBFK has *extended high frequency response. It is recommended as a high frequency component *to be combined with low/midrange speaker for music earphones.
 •Lower low/mid-band sensitivity compared to FK Series
*•Best high frequency response of any Knowles element*
 •Combine with low/mid-range speaker forextended frequency response
*•TWFK pairs WBFK with low frequency FK*

 SR SERIES – Balanced Armature Speaker 8.84 DIA x 5.00 (mm)At 8.8mm diameter, the SR is *the first round balanced armature speaker* in the marketplace. SR offers output equivalent to the BK series and *maximizes bass performance*.
 •Round package facilitates earphone designs
 •*Drop-in upgrade for moving coil dynamic speakers*
 •Designed for high volume production
 •Balanced armature technology

 CI SERIES – Balanced Armature Speaker 9.47 x 7.18 x 4.10 (mm). Knowles’ largest and most powerful speaker, the CI series is *the speaker of choice. *With its high efficiency and a 143dB SPL maximum output, the CI speaker *provides optimal low frequency performance*.
 •Two-terminal zero-bias and three-terminalcenter-tapped configurations 
 •Various port locations, coil impedances, termination configurations, and frequencyresponses available


----------



## MaoDi

So basically it would make sense to use the WBFK series as tweeter, SR, CI or HC series for Woofers. And the mids...


----------



## Bilavideo

If I were building a *single dr*iver, I'd use the CI-22955. When I tried them out as prototypes, without filters or crossovers, I was impressed by the sound. They have a very wide range. The HF was fine and the bass was rocking.

 If I were building a *dual driver*, I would grab the TWFK by itself or match the WBFK to the CI (for the best quality bass), or the SR (for the best quantity of bass). The HC also works as a bass driver - and has that 3 dB output advantage - but if I were going dual from a pair of single drivers, my first choice in woofers would be the CI, then the SR, then the HC. Because of its duality, the TWFK is the best value, even if it's the most expensive driver. At $52 per driver, it beats a WBFK ($40) and a CI ($28).

 Another option is to use two CIs. This would improve the efficiency of each, lowering its resonance issues.

 If I were building a *triple*, I'd pick the TWFK + CI. The TWFK gives you a WBFK tweeter plus an FK woofer, which can be used, either as a woofer or as a midrange. The CI gives you the best quality bass. There are alternatives but this is both the best choice and the best value, due to the TWFK's dual drivers.

 If I were building a *quad*, I'd be tempted to go with two TWFKs. One of the qualities about the TWFK that KA didn't put into its sales pitch, but is visible from the frequency response graph, is its amazingly flat performance. It's not perfectly flat but it's definitely a lot flatter than any of its rivals. A pair of these would be an awesome configuration.

 An alternative would be the TWFK + CI + SR. The TWFK + CI would give you a triple. The SR could be used as a subwoofer. This is pretty much what the UE11 appears to be doing, though it's always anyone's guess.

 For a *quint*, you could use 2 TWFKs plus a CI.

 For *6 drivers*, you could use 3 TWFKs OR 2 TWFKs plus a CI plus an SR.

 I'm not sure how far you can go with this, nor am I sure how necessary it is to have a zillion drivers, but for the price of a custom-made IEM, you could certainly build the IEM of your dreams. That's what has me pulling away from the IEM market to build my own.


----------



## MaoDi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bilavideo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If I were building a *single dr*iver, I'd use the CI-22955. When I tried them out as prototypes, without filters or crossovers, I was impressed by the sound. They have a very wide range. The HF was fine and the bass was rocking.

 If I were building a *dual driver*, I would grab the TWFK by itself or match the WBFK to the CI (for the best quality bass), or the SR (for the best quantity of bass). The HC also works as a bass driver - and has that 3 dB output advantage - but if I were going dual from a pair of single drivers, my first choice in woofers would be the CI, then the SR, then the HC. Because of its duality, the TWFK is the best value, even if it's the most expensive driver. At $52 per driver, it beats a WBFK ($40) and a CI ($28).

 Another option is to use two CIs. This would improve the efficiency of each, lowering its resonance issues.

 If I were building a *triple*, I'd pick the TWFK + CI. The TWFK gives you a WBFK tweeter plus an FK woofer, which can be used, either as a woofer or as a midrange. The CI gives you the best quality bass. There are alternatives but this is both the best choice and the best value, due to the TWFK's dual drivers.

 If I were building a *quad*, I'd be tempted to go with two TWFKs. One of the qualities about the TWFK that KA didn't put into its sales pitch, but is visible from the frequency response graph, is its amazingly flat performance. It's not perfectly flat but it's definitely a lot flatter than any of its rivals. A pair of these would be an awesome configuration.

 An alternative would be the TWFK + CI + SR. The TWFK + CI would give you a triple. The SR could be used as a subwoofer. This is pretty much what the UE11 appears to be doing, though it's always anyone's guess.

 For a *quint*, you could use 2 TWFKs plus a CI.

 For *6 drivers*, you could use 3 TWFKs OR 2 TWFKs plus a CI plus an SR.

 I'm not sure how far you can go with this, nor am I sure how necessary it is to have a zillion drivers, but for the price of a custom-made IEM, you could certainly build the IEM of your dreams. That's what has me pulling away from the IEM market to build my own._

 

'
 Very very true, maybe one day you can have your own company, price them at a super reasonable price. And everyone in this thread can be proto-testers =D what a great idea!


----------



## Bilavideo

I expect to have the first prototypes available for testing by August 1st.


----------



## MaoDi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bilavideo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I expect to have the first prototypes available for testing by August 1st._

 

I'll be in for that


----------



## nullstring

looking forward to it.

 Hope you end up making a comprehensive guide, so that others can reproduce your work.

 Might not be a bad idea to start thinking of a name for them either =)


 EDIT: Also, contacting ClieOS to see if he is game for a review of them wouldn't be a bad idea.


----------



## pdupiano

Come to think of it, I think the biggest part of making custom iems with cross overs may actually be the cross over moreso than which drivers you use. If you can find the right frequency cutoffs for each driver, and the right amount of cross over from one driver to the other, you may end up with the perfect mix. I can see that as being a major contributor to overall sound signature (not quality) and could potentially be the number one cost and differences say between the W3, UM3x, SE530, TFT Pro, etc... and ofcourse the same should apply to even higher end iems. And if that's the case, it might support current listening theories about how a 4 driver custom from JH Audio or from UE can compare to their 6 driver line up. They simply use the same cross over frequencies between models giving them similar sound signatures. Well just a theory, and I might very well be dreaming since it is 3 in the morning. I hate insomnia


----------



## MaoDi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pdupiano* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Come to think of it, I think the biggest part of making custom iems with cross overs may actually be the cross over moreso than which drivers you use. If you can find the right frequency cutoffs for each driver, and the right amount of cross over from one driver to the other, you may end up with the perfect mix. I can see that as being a major contributor to overall sound signature (not quality) and could potentially be the number one cost and differences say between the W3, UM3x, SE530, TFT Pro, etc... and ofcourse the same should apply to even higher end iems. And if that's the case, it might support current listening theories about how a 4 driver custom from JH Audio or from UE can compare to their 6 driver line up. They simply use the same cross over frequencies between models giving them similar sound signatures. Well just a theory, and I might very well be dreaming since it is 3 in the morning. I hate insomnia_

 

You're theory in a way is correct. A Crossover is (in my opinion) the most important part, even if you gather the highest quality drivers, you'll render them useless if you don't give each driver their "party piece" frequency range, then the driver configuration won't sound to it's best.But sound signature wise, i think it's more to the drivers than to the crossover.


----------



## Bilavideo

Just a few thoughts about crossovers.

 1. In a loudspeaker system, crossovers serve two functions: (1) to protect specialized components (mostly tweeters) from signals they're not designed for; and (2) to maximize the efficiency of those specialized components by limiting output to their optimal frequency range (as opposed to letting them hit their resonant frequency).

 2. Except for a handful of drivers - like the WBFK and the SR - the vast majority of BAs are wide-rangers. They're not specialized transducers, limited to a narrow band of frequencies. You can blast bass, midrange and treble through the same driver - which is why there are single-driver IEMS out there that sound pretty amazing.

 3. Absent specialized transducers, the real reason to sell multi-driver phones is marketing. Can you improve the sound presentation with multiple drivers? Yes, if only to lower the load on each driver, thereby lowering distortion. But there's a big difference between a real three-way system and three drivers singing in unison.

 4. It gets worse. When IEM manufacturers advertise their use of an "integrated passive crossover" - and it turns out the XO is only wired to one driver (usually the tweeter) - they're selling mystique, not performance. These same manufacturers are actually relying on something much less high-tech: mechanical filters. Shove this filter in this pipe, that filter in that pipe (and usually that's it, since the second driver is usually a "dual" driver - even if it only has one lead and only one sound outlet).

 5. The "crossover circuit" - typically wired to a single driver - is just a capacitor, providing (at best) a first-order crossover (6 dB per octave). Because the advertised "crossover" is more form than function, it doesn't even matter whether the cap is of the right value. It's window dressing to sell cool-looking pieces of plastic.

 6. I found this interesting little tidbit at Hearing Review http://www.hearingreview.com/issues/...002-01_99.asp:

  Quote:


 *Microminiature Leaded Tantalum Capacitor*
 BREL International, Sarasota, Fla, has released the *Type CLT-Microminiature Leaded Tantalum Capacitor*, the latest addition to the BREL Precision Components Inc product line. The Type CLT tantalum capacitor is one of the smallest on the market. Primarily supplied to the hearing aid industry, it is suitable for other medical and industrial applications.

 The Type CLT tantalum capacitor is available in three popular case sizes, with axial or radial leads. These precision microminiature polarized capacitors are especially suitable for general filtering, decoupling, bypassing, and RC timing application. The CLT series operates to +85C without derating and up to +125C with derating. The favorable capacitance to volume ratio makes this series perfect for such high-density applications as hearing aids.

 The Type CLT leaded tantalum capacitor was designed in cooperation with a major supplier of electronic components. Additional features include digital marking of capacitance value, color-coded tolerance marking, and robust pure nickel leads with solder coating that is suitable for soldering or welding. *Units are priced to $1.69 each*, depending on quantity, with up to 6 weeks stock delivery. 

 BREL Precision is part of the BREL International group of companies, which includes BREL International Components Inc. (800) 237-4564; BREL International, Inc. ~ Home Page. 
 

7. In the world of audio, tantalum caps are considered the worst. They leak. They change their values with heat. They smear. Their real virtue is their cost and size. They can provide a lot of capacitance for a very tiny space. And at a whole $1.69 apiece, who wouldn't want to put one in their $500 triple?


----------



## Bilavideo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pdupiano* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Come to think of it, I think the biggest part of making custom iems with cross overs may actually be the cross over moreso than which drivers you use. If you can find the right frequency cutoffs for each driver, and the right amount of cross over from one driver to the other, you may end up with the perfect mix. I can see that as being a major contributor to overall sound signature (not quality) and could potentially be the number one cost and differences say between the W3, UM3x, SE530, TFT Pro, etc... and of course the same should apply to even higher end iems._

 

I don't know how much of it has to do with electronic crossover, but I think you're right about one thing: It's what they're doing with the drivers that is making the most difference. The CI is a popular driver for bass. The TWFK is becoming a popular dual. Before its prominence, the WBFK (which is one half of the TWFK) was the closest thing to a dedicated tweeter. Whether it's the caps, the filters or a combination of the two, it's probably what they're doing with the drivers - much more than the drivers - that is making the difference from one set of monitors to the next. 

 Whatever the case, I think it's time we took it to the next level. Being the little guy puts us at a capital disadvantage but our weakness is also our greatest virtue. A corporate product rollout is a very stiff thing. These guys have so much money dedicated to administrative costs, advertising, et cetera. They don't market what they can't mark-up. They build in vast quantities, according to regimented schedules, for a fixed release date. They don't like to update an existing product while they have stockpiles of it waiting to be sold to distributors. The need to maximize profitability is their bottleneck. A cottage-made IEM, made with quality materials, still has David's chance against Goliath.


----------



## AudioCats

maybe somebody can try doing a dual driver IEM, and use a 3-wire cable (high, low, gnd). You can try the soft ribbon cable currently being used on Stax-001's. This will allow the cross over to be moved outside of the mold. 

 Then you can use whatever film cap that suits your fancy, or run an active bi-amp XO.


----------



## Bilavideo

Did Popular Science actually X-ray the UE-11? Check it out.
How It Works: The Littlest Subwoofer | Popular Science

 Westone decides to take it all off.
http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/yhst-...01758/w3p1.jpg


----------



## Bilavideo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *AudioCats* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_maybe somebody can try doing a dual driver IEM, and use a 3-wire cable (high, low, gnd). You can try the soft ribbon cable currently being used on Stax-001's. This will allow the cross over to be moved outside of the mold. 

 Then you can use whatever film cap that suits your fancy, or run an active bi-amp XO._

 

This is an interesting idea. I considered the possibility of wiring each driver separately so that a less-compromised crossover could be implemented. I think it's an idea worth serious consideration.


----------



## Bilavideo

WESTONE 3 CROSSOVERS - PHOTOS

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f103/w...embled-413581/

 It's discreet but it's a true 3-way xo. All hail Westone!


----------



## Bilavideo

OKAY, LET'S GET STARTED - EL CHEAPO (BILAVIDEO 1)

  Quote:


 INTRO
 My wife is giving me grief about the mess of parts and tools sprawling across our dining table a/k/a my "lab." The WAF of the mess rates to about 0, so while I'm waiting for the crossover caps and some more TWFKs, I'll go ahead and get started with the simple stuff. 
 

I'm going to be building a single-driver IEM using the cheapest drivers available, the BK26824, which is available through Mouser for $18.84/driver knowles acoustics, from Digikey for $18 even SPEAKER Z=29OHMS SS PORT ON END - BK-26824-000 and from IHI Electronics IHI Electronics - Parts Catalog - Part Detail - BK-26824-000 (price unknown), Global Spec Part Number BK-26824-000 from Knowles Acoustics and Newark KNOWLES ACOUSTICS|BK-26824-000|Speaker | Newark.com for the amazingly low price of $13.23 (if you're willing to wait the lag time for them to order it from KA).

 Whatever the case, this is a very inexpensive driver. I got a pair from Mouser, which is often the least expensive source, but I could have saved a buck by buying from Digikey. I'm not suggesting it's the best driver you can buy, just that it's the cheapest and a great place to start for getting your hands dirty and your feet wet.

 KA has a dozen drivers in the BK series, the last five of which (including the 26824) don't have a datasheet with specs. Like most of the BK drivers, the 26824 has a sensitivity of 118. It has a nominal impedence of 16 ohms, but its specific impedence depends on the frequency. It's 16 ohms at 500 Hz but 29 ohms at 1 kHz. The frequency response graph looks identical for the seven BK drivers listed. Here's what it looks like: http://www.knowles.com/search/prods_...-21600-000.pdf

 This is going to be a very loud driver, one with very forward mids, at least undamped. Here are some quick stats:

 200 Hz - 106 dB
 500 Hz - 107 dB
 900 Hz - 115 dB
 1.5kHz - 125 dB
 2.0kHz - 117 dB
 2.5kHz - 123 dB
 3.0kHz - 115 dB
 3.5kHz - 122 dB
 4.0kHz - 105 dB
 5.0kHz - 107 dB
 6 kHz - 10 kHz - nothing

 There are three frequency peaks, one at 1.5kHz (125 dB), one at 2.5kHz (123 dB) and a third at 3.5 dB (122 dB). Given the almost 20 dB difference between bass and the midrange peak, as well as the 14 dB drop from 3.5 kHz to 5 kHz, this is clearly a driver that likes the midrange, which is where you'd expect a driver for a hearing aid, given the frequency pitch of human speech.

 But what if we could match it with the right filter? Would it help? Could we take the cheapest, crappiest, driver on the market and turn it into something halfway decent?

 It's time to find out. For the sake of convenience, I'm going to:

 1) Solder these bad boys to the ends of a Westone replacement cable;
 2) Add a dab of hot glue to help protect the leads from getting yanked off; and
 3) Pop these INTO a pair of medium cushions (my size) for deep inner-ear fit UNDAMPED.
 4) Experiment with the following filters:680 ohms - white1000 ohms - brown1500 ohms - green2200 ohms - red3000 ohms - orange4700 ohms - yellow
 5) Report and document the results. It may well be that with the right filter, this could be a fun single driver. It may also be that with the right filter, this could at least be a useful driver in a multi-driver configuration.

 Pictures will follow.​


----------



## AudioCats

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bilavideo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is an interesting idea. I considered the possibility of wiring each driver separately so that a less-compromised crossover could be implemented. I think it's an idea worth serious consideration._

 


 if budget allows, you can also use a whole 001 cable per side (6 wires total) and do a tri-driver (2 wires per driver, no shared wires). 

 too bad the cable has to be extremely flexible in an IEM. solid core silver is out of the question


----------



## pdupiano

I think the photos above show the crossovers are real but still as Bill points out whats the point of a cross over if you pull a bose over people's eyes. Good luck with the project.


----------



## meraj.salek

Quote:


 Thank you for the words of support. You made my day. 
 

My pleasure Bilavideo 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


 Originally Posted by *Audiocats*
 imaybe somebody can try doing a dual driver IEM, and use a 3-wire cable (high, low, gnd). You can try the soft ribbon cable currently being used on Stax-001's. This will allow the cross over to be moved outside of the mold. 

 Then you can use whatever film cap that suits your fancy, or run an active bi-amp XO. 
 

Hmmmm......This may open up a whole new genre of custom/cottage/boutique equipment if a modular approach is taken. Customized passive XO modules that can be plugged in, multi channel amps piggybacking active XO modules, DSPs, etc. You can build/buy/match the rig of your dreams and means.....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 You might want to consider this if you ever go down the commercial offering route. It might just be the next big thing!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 My 2cents worth


----------



## Bilavideo

This is the first batch, with the drivers inside the eartips. You find the size of eartips that fit your ears, then you solder the drivers to a decent replacement cable and put the drivers into the tips. This is fairly simple and economical. I like to use a little hot glue to help anchor everthing so the wires don't pull out the leads.


----------



## Bilavideo

This is an early version, which I had to resolder because I had too much extra wire. The in-the-tip design is great, because it puts the drivers right into your ears. The foamies are also good for attenuating wild treble before you apply filters. It's not a good design if you want to add a lot of drivers. Things get bulky fast, which is why we see so many ITE-style shells.
   
   
   The picture is dead.  Just use this link to see all the pictures I have in the album (I'm too lazy to play mix and match right now): http://www.head-fi.org/gallery/album/view/id/7525/user_id/71417


----------



## Bilavideo

This is the CI-22955, a real workhorse driver capable of producing a wide range of frequencies, including quite decent bass. I was really impressed at how good these sounded, even before I started experimenting with filters.
   
   
   The picture is dead.  Just use this link to see all the pictures I have in the album (I'm too lazy to play mix and match right now): http://www.head-fi.org/gallery/album/view/id/7525/user_id/71417


----------



## Bilavideo

These are the TWFKs, the tiny little dual drivers (the world's smallest duals). As you can see, these would fit quite easily into an eartip to create instant "dual drivers." A pair of them would also create an instant "quad."
   
   
   The picture is dead.  Just use this link to see all the pictures I have in the album (I'm too lazy to play mix and match right now): http://www.head-fi.org/gallery/album/view/id/7525/user_id/71417


----------



## Bilavideo

Here's my first attempt at a triple, an in-the-ear triple. Without earshells to house the drivers, there's only so much room in the eartips. This first attempt at getting it all into the eartip was successful, and with the addition of an additional TWFK, I think it's also possible to up the ante to a "quint" (five-driver-setup). Beyond that, there just isn't enough space in the eartip to keep plugging in drivers, which is why I'm working on some plastic shells to house more drivers and some semblance of a crossover.

 The one nice thing about this makeshift setup is that it's relatively easy to apply the filters.
   
   
   The picture is dead.  Just use this link to see all the pictures I have in the album (I'm too lazy to play mix and match right now): http://www.head-fi.org/gallery/album/view/id/7525/user_id/71417


----------



## specto

This is so epic


----------



## Bilavideo

Thanks!


----------



## Bilavideo

Okay, I'm off schedule. I had to make a run out of state to handle some family business. Right now, the bottleneck is still the plastic housing. I have been contacted by someone who is willing to help me get a prototype put together, which could be very exciting. In the interim, I'm going to take some plastic off a hook at Walmart and feed it as many drivers as I can manage. I'd like to put together a quint, or five-driver setup. Hacking somebody's junk will at least give me what George Carlin called "a place for my stuff." I'm curious to see what five drivers can do, especially with different filters.


----------



## specto

Let us know! I am sure there are more like myself who are more than willing to be guinea pigs.


----------



## Bilavideo

I'm almost there. Finding a practical housing has been a pain, but I just got an idea. The PL-50 has an architecture that is so plain as to invite scrutiny. The housing is basically just a rectangular box. What matters is the connecting tube allowing that sound to empty into the ear canal. I've never heard the PL-50, but it's single-driver configuration has not inspired top reviews. It's lack of dedicated tweeters keeps it at the shallow end of the pool. But that basic approach, of using the housing as just that - housing - opens the door to very basic designs that would allow a quicker foray into a multi-driver configuration. I'm interested in finding a pillbox small enough to do the job. I'm going to fill that pillbox with drivers.


----------



## Bilavideo

Check out boy genius here:

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f4/cus...62/index3.html


----------



## geestring

I couldn't really follow. What method did he end up using?


----------



## Bilavideo

This baby genius started making epoxy shells for his crappy dynamics, then moved on to making rubber casts so he could pour acrylic plastic. What he ended up with looked pretty good. Just scroll through the pics. The kid was on to something, and that was several years ago.


----------



## Rayko

The UE Super.Fi 5 Pro uses a single capacitor in series with the high freq driver for its crossover. I have several more pictures available if anyone is interested.

 The housing on this one crumbled near the socket for the replaceable cable.


----------



## Bilavideo

Rayko, that's an awesome pic. *Keep 'em coming*. I'm thrilled with your contribution to this ever-expanding dialogue. It's happening. Can you feel it? The day is coming when earphone users are going to have the same power as owners of loudspeaker systems. We can custom design the earphones ourselves. We don't have to be dependent upon the hype and mark-up of manufacturers - though it would be nice if Hammond started making shells for us.

 By the way, this pic shows what they're doing with the crossover. Crossovers have two purposes: (1) to protect components, mainly tweeters; and (2) to sculpt the frequency bandwith going through each driver. As you can see here, the real purpose of this crossover is not to tailor the sound. It's to protect the tweeter. That's it. All the real tailoring is being done with $6 worth of filters which are color-coded. If the earpiece is designed so that the filters go into the sound outlet for easy replacement, you could have the filter equivalent of opamp rolling. You could have filter rolling. I've done this with experiments on drivers and it's an interesting experience changing the sound signature of your own earpiece. People could literally customize their earpieces to suit their own tastes.


----------



## Bilavideo

Epiphany: There's nothing fancy going on here with the caps. Caps are used, in loudspeaker crossovers, as high-pass filters. That's what's happening here. The caps are only being connected to the tweeters because they're being used primarily for tweeter protection. If there's a secondary purpose, it's the high-pass filter. There's no low-pass filter for the bass. That function is being carried out mechanically, with colored filters.


----------



## ezzieyguywuf

This thread is getting more and more interesting. Keep it up Bilavideo!


----------



## Rayko

The molded piece that supports the transducers is soft, flexible and appears to be made of silicone.


----------



## MaoDi

The remarkable of custom drivers


----------



## musick7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bilavideo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I expect to have the first prototypes available for testing by August 1st._

 

Hey Bilavideo,
 I was wondering if you had an update yet.... I didnt see anything about you saying you had it working? 
 I am getting ready to purchase the drivers. I have a set of SHURE E500 PTH I was wondering if the set you built sound ok, good, or WOW! ? 
 And what did you use to get the Negative impression mold? I have all the tools and impression kit for the "Positive" Ear Mold with the Gun just like the audiologist would do with the Ear dam and gun. I just cant seem to find the Silicon that Hardens in 10Min Via UV light.
 If anyone knows what I'm talking about ANY HELP would be great on finding this stuff!!! Here is the link on you tube. 
YouTube - how to make a hearing aid

 Any thoughts? Ive tried to use normal silicon and after days of waiting it never harden...


----------



## Bilavideo

I built a triple that fits into an eartip. It sounds great but I want to take it further. I want to build a super six. Because of size, I can't do that with just a tip.

 My bottleneck is the housing. A friend is working on cadding something. In the meantime, I made impressions of my ears with a home kit from Microsonic. I'm going to make a negative impression mold out of rubber/silicon and then use it as the mold for an acrylic resin. Working with plastics is not my specialty, so this is where I'm still groping a bit, but I think time is on our side. Another friend just sent out his old shells from when he went custom with his UM3X, so until I get the housing issue resolved, these plastic shells will make a workable platform for experiments with a super six.


----------



## MaoDi

Hey, can't wait till you get that together. GOOD LUCK! and HAVE FUN! Hope i can get a listen to these haha.

 ^^^ i want to see the innards of the TF10 =) and the SE530


----------



## pdupiano

Wait a sec, Bilavideo, didn't you tell us that there are in fact no real tweeters when it comes to iems? So how did you come to the conclusion that the caps in multi-driver units are more for protection rather than crossover features?

 Additionally I wonder if the custom silicone mold in the UE super fi 5 is specifically designed for a particular angle. If I remember correctly, when comparing the SE530 and the W3' as well as the UM3x, each canal had a different angle and length. I think we can conclude that the length of the tube matters (as well as the tube material used) but I'd also guess that the angle of the drivers may impact the overall sound.


----------



## meraj.salek

Pdupiano, I've been thinking along the same lines...
 I thought all these drivers were designed to be hooked up directly. The levels these are to operate at is no where near that of loudspeaker tweeters...hmmm

 Also, wouldn't driver mis-match and interaction have an effect on the sound? While the drivers are probably too close to the eardrum for the effects to be noticed, isn't it still possible?!


----------



## Bilavideo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pdupiano* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wait a sec, Bilavideo, didn't you tell us that there are in fact no real tweeters when it comes to iems? So how did you come to the conclusion that the caps in multi-driver units are more for protection rather than crossover features?_

 

I misspoke.

 First, I need to clarify what I mean by "tweeters." When I said there are no "real tweeters" out there, I meant that all the drivers - at least from KA - are "wide-range drivers." There are no drivers that only output HF. Therefore, there's no need for a "protective" crossover. You're not going to blow the driver six ways from Sunday if it's designed to reproduce a "wide range" of frequencies. And, as meraj.selak has pointed out, we're talking about extremely small amounts of power, nothing like the hundreds of watts that pump through a typical woofer.

 That said, while KA doesn't make any drivers that are only tweeters, it does make a few drivers with "extended HF": The FK and the TWFK (which is a tweeter/woofer FK). In marketing the FK, KA says, "The wide bandwidth version pushes the boundaries of high-frequency performance. As part of the TWFK receiver, the WBFK offers the widest bandwith response of any receiver." If you compare the specs on the FK http://www.knowles.com/search/prods_...-23451-000.pdf and the TWFK http://www.knowles.com/search/prods_...-30017-000.pdf, the TWFK has better bass than the FK, but only by a few dB (97 vs. 94 dB at 200 Hz). 

 Which one produces the best HF extension depends on what you want. The FK spikes at 2.5 kHz where the TWFK's spike is closer to 3 kHz. What's more, that first FK spike hits 108 dB whereas the TWFK's first spike peaks at 103 dB. So, do you want the higher HF or the louder one closer to the midrange? Both slough to a trough after that. For the FK, it's to 95 dB at 4.5 kHz while the TWFK troughs to 93 dB a little closer to 5 kHz. Both hit a second and final peak at 6 kHz, but the FK hits 100 dB whereas the TWFK hits 97. According to the graphs, both drivers are still outputing around 75dB at 10 kHz

 So, there are at least two KA drivers that have "HF extension" worth calling a tweeter (The TWFK has genuine "sizzle") but because they're both wide-range drivers, the crossover must not be there for protective reasons So, it's there for the sound, right?

 This is where I got my wires crossed. In loudspeaker design, crossover networks have high-pass filters for the tweeters, low-pass filters for the woofers, and band-pass filters (establishing a floor and ceiling frequency) for the midrange (assuming it's a three-way crossover). In a basic First Order Butterworth, caps are used for the high-pass and inductors are used for the low-pass. When I contacted KA about this, their rep said inductors aren't used in earphone crossovers because of the hum. It's obviously not an issue in loudspeaker designs, where the woofer is sitting across the room and the woofer's output is so much greater, but in an earphone, nobody wants to deal with the distortion. Fair enough, but without inductors, I wondered how manufacturers would create a decent low-pass. KA spoke of using caps and resistors. Resistors increase impedence, using lowering volume across the spectrum. You could use a resistor to balance impedence and reign in a wild driver from drowning out its neighbor, but I still didn't see how a resistor would create a low-pass filter.

 Westone and UE (on the UE10 and UE11) seem to be doing a better job than most. In so many designs, it appears that the "crossover" is only be applying to the "tweeter." This had me scratching my head until it hit me that caps are typical high-pass filters. There wasn't any magic here. The cap was doing what caps generally do in crossover designs: cutting out the bass. Sure enough, the specs on the TWFK came from a driver that was tested in tandem with a .82mF cap. But that confused me all the more since the TWFK is supposed to be a "dual" driver with a woofer and tweeter. Why would you want to cap a woofer? Wouldn't that be counterproductive? In the meantime, both "tweeters" and drivers used as "woofers" are mechanically filtered with cloth filters of varying ohms of resistance, raising questions about the effectiveness of a crossover that has to be assisted by a cloth filter.

 One possible reason to cap a "tweeter" is to send more power to the "woofer." Electrical "flow" is a bit like water "flow" in the sense that blocking a path over here can redirect the flow somewhere else. This is why developers get hit with exactions, forcing them to compensate for the extra "water runoff" when they throw down large amounts of asphalt and concrete. LF signals blocked from going to the "tweeter" end up diverted to the "woofer." When the "woofer" is really a wide-range driver with a sock shoved in its mouth, the more power you can give it, the better. 

 If you look at the performance specs for the two most obvious "woofers" - the CI-22955 http://www.knowles.com/search/prods_...-22955-000.pdf and the SR Series http://www.knowles.com/search/prods_...438NWS-000.pdf - neither looks much like a woofer. The CI's first peak is at 900 Hz while the SR peaks at 2.5 kHz (Its peak of 120dB is 6 dB higher than its deepest bass). But with a big enough sock in its mouth, each driver has potential. At 100 Hz, the SR hits 112 dB. Not bad. At 200 Hz, the CI hits 114 dB. If you're pulling 110 dB or better through 500 Hz, just imagine putting both of these in the same earphone. There might be a need to use resistors to adjust the output balance between the drivers, but the result could be a very euphonic blend.

 Given the limited use of the crossover to sculp the sound, I assumed that its real purpose was protective. As I look at it now, its real function IS to tailor the sound, but in an indirect way. With a dual driver like the TWFK, it seems insane to filter out the LF since the "dual" driver's woofer would need it. But a capped tweeter will send more power to the other driver. If that other driver happens to be the "woofer" of the two, then the cap will act (in some ways) like a resistor, diverting LF power to the other driver. It will make the "woofer" louder, at least with respect to the LF, which is an indirect way of achieving a result normally involving an inductor attached to the woofer.

 How much of this is real and how much of it is just for show is anybody's guess. I'll have to experiment some more with the drivers to know for myself.

  Quote:


 Additionally I wonder if the custom silicone mold in the UE super fi 5 is specifically designed for a particular angle. If I remember correctly, when comparing the SE530 and the W3' as well as the UM3x, each canal had a different angle and length. I think we can conclude that the length of the tube matters (as well as the tube material used) but I'd also guess that the angle of the drivers may impact the overall sound. 
 

I was looking at that, too. The silicone looks like a holster aiming the two drivers' outlets at the same sound port. The reason for this is functional. As I discovered when piggybacking the CI with a TWFK, there's a gap between the divers' outlets. What UE has done here reminds me of a bartender pouring two bottles into the same container. To do that sort of thing, it helps to go at it from 45-degree angles.


----------



## meraj.salek

So is it correct to assume that a 2-way IEM is basically 2 same drivers, 1 with a cap in series to cut out bass frequencies and the other with a filter in front to dampen the high frequencies? 

 What variable is tweaked as the driver count goes up? Different filters? 

 Trying to wrap my head around this


----------



## MaoDi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *meraj.salek* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So is it correct to assume that a 2-way IEM is basically 2 same drivers, 1 with a cap in series to cut out bass frequencies and the other with a filter in front to dampen the high frequencies? 

 What variable is tweaked as the driver count goes up? Different filters? 

 Trying to wrap my head around this 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

For Ultimate Ears, basically that is the case. However, for some other company's like Westone and Klipsch, there is actually a crossover which splits the frequency range rather then dampen the signal to make each driver a dedicated freq driver.


----------



## Bilavideo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *meraj.salek* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So is it correct to assume that a 2-way IEM is basically 2 same drivers, 1 with a cap in series to cut out bass frequencies and the other with a filter in front to dampen the high frequencies? 

 What variable is tweaked as the driver count goes up? Different filters? 

 Trying to wrap my head around this 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

In a single-driver setup, the only real difference between offerings is the choice of wide-range drivers and the cloth filter used to attenuate or smooth a wild HF. Within the frequency range of a driver, there's a center point, a center frequency. We seem to sense when it skews high or low. Filtering is used to attenuate runaway HF. Resistors are used to deal with bloated LF. According to KA, spiking impedence cuts bass and adds headroom.

 Single-driver designs can sound amazingly good, but you're not going to get that last bit of sizzle from a single driver. The CI series, for example, sounded pretty nice when I popped a couple of those drivers into an earpiece (a poor man's IEM). The CI has a lot of output so, with the right fit, you get a very dynamic sound. I did the same thing with the BK-26824, just because it was the cheapest BA I could find ($38/pair) and I wanted to see how it would perform. I was surprised at the quality, which struck me as middier but still quite nice for the price. But when I compared either driver to the TWFK, there was a definite sizzle gap. Properly filtered, even the cheapest BA will give you a nice, balanced, sound - but in a single-driver design, you'll miss the top end.

 To get a two-way design, you can either pop in two single drivers or one dual driver. The easiest answer is the $52 TWFK, which is +5 at 200 Hz and 5+5.5 at 5.5-6.5 kHz. A person could easily just go with the TWFK (Pop it right into a tip and be done), but with two caveats: First, although this earphone is fairly flat for much of its run, there's a sizable spike aound 3 kHz, a spike of +11. To my ears, this shifted the center frequency forward, making me want to filter it, which would alter its HF extension (It was tested undamped). The second caveat is that it was capped during testing (.85uF). This would have cut the bass, maybe to highlight the tweeter side. When I tried it unfiltered and uncapped, it had a surprising amount of bass but was a bit harsh on the high end. When I used the white filter KA recommends, it smoothed the performance. I think a person could go with this, uncapped, and have the most basic of duals by popping it into a tip. But you'd still want $3 worth of white filters (You can get a package of 10 from Microsonic for $13).

 Another way to run a two-way is with two separate drivers. Which two is up to you. Here are some possibilities:

 1. You could take two identical drivers and simply cap one and filter the other. The capped driver would be your tweeter. The filtered driver would be your woofer.

 2. You could match a CI or an SR with an FK or WBFK. You can get a pair of SRs for $28, a pair of CIs for $52. Both will need a strong filter to HF spikes which are louder than their bass (I recommend the reds). Depending on the FK, you could get different degrees of HF extension.


----------



## Bilavideo

*LITTLE SHOP OF TWEETERS*

 DON'T FREAK OUT - THIS CHART IS A WORK IN PROGRESS
 I'M COMPARING FK/WBFK OFFERINGS AND THIS IS THE EASIEST WAY TO LAY OUT THE CHOICES

 Let me state my preferences up front. Here's what I look for in a dedicated tweeter:

 1) *HF Extension*: How far does this driver go before it peters out? Even if the lower treble is more important than the top end, wider extension adds presence and sizzle.
 2) *Frequency Centerpoint*: Ideally, I'd like that first spike to be as far from the midrange as possible. I can get midrange from another driver. All things being equal, an early spike portends weaker HF extension.
 3) *A Milder Spike*: It's easy to place a higher value on a stronger spike because it represents louder highs, but a spike is an imbalance. A little goes a long way. I want HF representation, not distorted highs that go through my head like a sharp needle.

 Given the value and coolness factor of the TWFK, any FK or WBFK driver worth considering needs to at least have the same quality of HF extension as the TWFK dual, which has the following data:
http://www.knowles.com/search/prods_...-30017-000.pdf
 HF Extension: 73dB at 10kHz
 1st Peak: 2.9kHz (103dB)
 2nd Peak: 6kHz (97dB)

 FK-23451 ($38 - Digikey/$40 - Mouser nonstocked) (630 ohm)(107dB)
http://www.knowles.com/search/prods_...-23451-000.pdf
 HF Extension: 80dB at 9kHz
 1st Peak - 2.5kHz (108dB)
 2nd Peak - 6kHz (100dB)

 FK-23989 ($45.54 - Mouser, min. 12 nonstocked)(145 ohm)(95dB)
http://www.knowles.com/search/prods_...-23989-000.pdf
 HF Extension: 70dB at 9kHz
 1st Peak - 2.7kHz (102dB)
 2nd Peak - 6.3kHz (87dB)

 FK-26260 ($40.19 - Mouser, min. 13 nonstocked)
http://www.knowles.com/search/prods_...-26260-000.pdf
 HF Extension: 80dB at 9kHz
 1st Peak - 2.5 kHz (105dB)
 2nd Peak -5.7 kHz (97dB)

 FK-6260 ($33/Digikey, min. 28, non-stock) (135 ohm)
 no datasheet

 FK-23466($37 - Digikey, min. 25, non-stock/$45.54 - Mouser, min. 12 nonstocked) (630 ohm)(107dB)
http://www.knowles.com/search/prods_...-23466-000.pdf
 HF Extension: 80dB at 9kHz
 1st Peak - 2.5kHz (108dB)
 2nd Peak - 6kHz (100dB)

 FK-26433 ($45.54 - Mouser, min. 12 nonstocked)
http://www.knowles.com/search/prods_...-26433-000.pdf
 HF Extension: 80dB at just shy of 9kHz
 1st Peak - 2.5kHz (107dB)
 2nd Peak - 5.7kHz (97dB)

 FK-26746 ($45.54 - Mouser, min. 12 nonstocked)
http://www.knowles.com/search/prods_...-26746-000.pdf
 HF Extension: 70dB at 9kHz
 1st Peak - 2.7kHz (103dB)
 2nd Peak - 6.4 kHz (87dB)

 FK-26768 ($45.54 - Mouser, min. 12 nonstocked)
http://www.knowles.com/search/prods_...-26768-000.pdf
 HF Extension: 77dB at 10kHz
 1st Peak - 2.5kHz (109dB)
 2nd Peak -6.4kHz (97dB)

 FK-26777 ($45.54 - Mouser, min. 12 nonstocked)
http://www.knowles.com/search/prods_...-26777-000.pdf
 HF Extension: 80dB at 8kHz
 1st Peak - 2.4kHz (108dB)
 2nd Peak - 6kHz (92dB)

 FK-26816 ($45.54 - Mouser, min. 12 nonstocked)
http://www.knowles.com/search/prods_...-26816-000.pdf
 HF Extension: 70dB at 9kHz
 1st Peak - 2.7kHz (100dB)
 2nd Peak - 5.5kHz (85dB)

 FK-26837 ($45.54 - Mouser, min. 12 nonstocked)
http://www.knowles.com/search/prods_...-26837-000.pdf
 HF Extension: 70dB at 9kHz
 1st Peak - 2.7kHz (103dB)
 2nd Peak -6.4kHz (87dB)

 FK-26888 ($45.54 - Mouser, min. 12 nonstocked)
http://www.knowles.com/search/prods_...-26888-000.pdf
 HF Extension: 70dB at 8kHz
 1st Peak - 2.9kHz (101dB)
 2nd Peak - 6kHz (88dB)

 FK-26889 ($45.54 - Mouser, min. 12 nonstocked)
http://www.knowles.com/search/prods_...-26889-000.pdf
 HF Extension: 70dB at 8kHz
 1st Peak - 2.8kHz (101dB)
 2nd Peak -6kHz (88dB)

 FK-30020 ($45.54 - Mouser, min. 12 nonstocked)
http://www.knowles.com/search/prods_...-30020-000.pdf
 HF Extension: 70dB at 9kHz
 1st Peak - 2.7kHz (102dB)
 2nd Peak -6.2kHz (87dB)

 FK-30030 ($45.54 - Mouser, min. 12 nonstocked)
http://www.knowles.com/search/prods_...-30030-000.pdf
 HF Extension: 70dB at 9kHz
 1st Peak - 2.7kHz (103dB)
 2nd Peak -6.2kHz (87dB)

 FK-30040 ($45.54 - Mouser, min. 12 nonstocked)
http://www.knowles.com/search/prods_...-30040-000.pdf
 HF Extension: 70dB at 8kHz
 1st Peak - 2.8kHz (99dB)
 2nd Peak -6.5kHz (81dB)

 WBFK-23990 ($45.54 - Mouser, min. 12 nonstocked)
http://www.knowles.com/search/prods_...-23990-000.pdf
 HF Extension: 77dB at 10kHz
 1st Peak - 4kHz (104dB)
 2nd Peak -7kHz (97dB)

 WBFK-30000 ($45.54 - Mouser, min. 12 nonstocked)
http://www.knowles.com/search/prods_...-30000-000.pdf
 HF Extension: 73dB at 10kHz
 1st Peak - 3.3kHz (103dB)
 2nd Peak -6.4kHz (97dB)

 WBFK-30019 ($40.19 - Mouser)
http://www.knowles.com/search/prods_...-30019-000.pdf
 HF Extension: 77dB at 10kHz
 1st Peak - 4.1kHz (103dB)
 2nd Peak -7.1kHz (96dB)

 WBFK-30042 ($45.54 - Mouser, min. 12 nonstocked)
http://www.knowles.com/search/prods_...-30042-000.pdf
 HF Extension: 73dB at 10kHz
 1st Peak - 3.4kHz (104dB)
 2nd Peak -6.6kHz (95dB)

 WBFK-30095 ($40.19 - Mouser)
http://www.knowles.com/search/prods_...-30095-000.pdf
 HF Extension: 80dB at 8kHz
 1st Peak - 3.4kHz (106dB)
 2nd Peak -5.4kHz (103dB)


----------



## Bilavideo

*[size=medium]TOP TWEETERS[/size]*

*BEST EXTENSION*

 1. *WBFK-30019 ($40.19 - Mouser)*
http://www.knowles.com/search/prods_...-30019-000.pdf
 HF Extension: 77dB at 10kHz
 1st Peak - 4.1kHz (103dB)
 2nd Peak -7.1kHz (96dB)

 1. WBFK-23990 ($45.54 - Mouser, min. 12 nonstocked)
http://www.knowles.com/search/prods_...-23990-000.pdf
 HF Extension: 77dB at 10kHz
 1st Peak - 4kHz (104dB)
 2nd Peak -7kHz (97dB)

 1. FK-26768 ($45.54 - Mouser, min. 12 nonstocked)
http://www.knowles.com/search/prods_...-26768-000.pdf
 HF Extension: 77dB at 10kHz
 1st Peak - 2.5kHz (109dB)
 2nd Peak -6.4kHz (97dB)[/COLOR][/B]

 4. WBFK-30000 ($45.54 - Mouser, min. 12 nonstocked)
http://www.knowles.com/search/prods_...-30000-000.pdf
 HF Extension: 73dB at 10kHz
 1st Peak - 3.3kHz (103dB)
 2nd Peak -6.4kHz (97dB)

 5. WBFK-30042 ($45.54 - Mouser, min. 12 nonstocked)
http://www.knowles.com/search/prods_...-30042-000.pdf
 HF Extension: 73dB at 10kHz
 1st Peak - 3.4kHz (104dB)
 2nd Peak -6.6kHz (95dB)

*BEST HF CENTERPOINT*

*1. WBFK-30019 ($40.19 - Mouser)
http://www.knowles.com/search/prods_...-30019-000.pdf
 HF Extension: 77dB at 10kHz
 1st Peak - 4.1kHz (103dB)
 2nd Peak -7.1kHz (96dB)*

 2. WBFK-23990 ($45.54 - Mouser, min. 12 nonstocked)
http://www.knowles.com/search/prods_...-23990-000.pdf
 HF Extension: 77dB at 10kHz
 1st Peak - 4kHz (104dB)
 2nd Peak -7kHz (97dB)

 3. WBFK-30042 ($45.54 - Mouser, min. 12 nonstocked)
http://www.knowles.com/search/prods_...-30042-000.pdf
 HF Extension: 73dB at 10kHz
 1st Peak - 3.4kHz (104dB)
 2nd Peak -6.6kHz (95dB)

 4. WBFK-30095 ($40.19 - Mouser)
http://www.knowles.com/search/prods_...-30095-000.pdf
 HF Extension: 80dB at 8kHz
 1st Peak - 3.4kHz (106dB)
 2nd Peak -5.4kHz (103dB) 

 5. WBFK-30000 ($45.54 - Mouser, min. 12 nonstocked)
http://www.knowles.com/search/prods_...-30000-000.pdf
 HF Extension: 73dB at 10kHz
 1st Peak - 3.3kHz (103dB)
 2nd Peak -6.4kHz (97dB)

*GENTLEST SPIKE*

 1. FK-26816 ($45.54 - Mouser, min. 12 nonstocked)
http://www.knowles.com/search/prods_...-26816-000.pdf
 HF Extension: 70dB at 9kHz
 1st Peak - 2.7kHz (100dB)
 2nd Peak - 5.5kHz (85dB)

 2. FK-26888 ($45.54 - Mouser, min. 12 nonstocked)
http://www.knowles.com/search/prods_...-26888-000.pdf
 HF Extension: 70dB at 8kHz
 1st Peak - 2.9kHz (101dB)
 2nd Peak - 6kHz (88dB)

 3. FK-26889 ($45.54 - Mouser, min. 12 nonstocked)
http://www.knowles.com/search/prods_...-26889-000.pdf
 HF Extension: 70dB at 8kHz
 1st Peak - 2.8kHz (101dB)
 2nd Peak -6kHz (88dB)

 4. FK-30040 ($45.54 - Mouser, min. 12 nonstocked)
http://www.knowles.com/search/prods_...-30040-000.pdf
 HF Extension: 70dB at 8kHz
 1st Peak - 2.8kHz (99dB)
 2nd Peak -6.5kHz (81dB)

 5. FK-30020 ($45.54 - Mouser, min. 12 nonstocked)
http://www.knowles.com/search/prods_...-30020-000.pdf
 HF Extension: 70dB at 9kHz
 1st Peak - 2.7kHz (102dB)
 2nd Peak -6.2kHz (87dB)

 6. FK-26746 ($45.54 - Mouser, min. 12 nonstocked)
http://www.knowles.com/search/prods_...-26746-000.pdf
 HF Extension: 70dB at 9kHz
 1st Peak - 2.7kHz (103dB)
 2nd Peak - 6.4 kHz (87dB)

 7. FK-26837 ($45.54 - Mouser, min. 12 nonstocked)
http://www.knowles.com/search/prods_...-26837-000.pdf
 HF Extension: 70dB at 9kHz
 1st Peak - 2.7kHz (103dB)
 2nd Peak -6.4kHz (87dB)

 8. WBFK-30000 ($45.54 - Mouser, min. 12 nonstocked)
http://www.knowles.com/search/prods_...-30000-000.pdf
 HF Extension: 73dB at 10kHz
 1st Peak - 3.3kHz (103dB)
 2nd Peak -6.4kHz (97dB)

*9. WBFK-30019 ($40.19 - Mouser)
http://www.knowles.com/search/prods_...-30019-000.pdf
 HF Extension: 77dB at 10kHz
 1st Peak - 4.1kHz (103dB)
 2nd Peak -7.1kHz (96dB)*

*GENTLEST SPIKE AMONG SMALL-QUANTITY DRIVERS*

*WBFK-30019 ($40.19 - Mouser)

 HF Extension: 77dB at 10kHz
 1st Peak - 4.1kHz (103dB)
 2nd Peak -7.1kHz (96dB)*

 WBFK-30095 ($40.19 - Mouser)
http://www.knowles.com/search/prods_...-30095-000.pdf
 HF Extension: 80dB at 8kHz
 1st Peak - 3.4kHz (106dB)
 2nd Peak -5.4kHz (103dB) 

 FK-23451 ($38 - Digikey/$40 - Mouser nonstocked) (630 ohm)(107dB)
http://www.knowles.com/search/prods_...-23451-000.pdf
 HF Extension: 80dB at 9kHz
 1st Peak - 2.5kHz (108dB)
 2nd Peak - 6kHz (100dB)


----------



## Bilavideo

[size=medium]THE WBFK VS. THE TWFK[/size]

 Decisions, decisions. Do you go with the dual or the best single? 

*TWFK* ($52 - Mouser)
http://www.knowles.com/search/prods_...-30017-000.pdf
 HF Extension: 73dB at 10kHz
 1st Peak: 2.9kHz (103dB)
 2nd Peak: 6kHz (97dB)





> FREQUENCY/MAX


100Hz - 96dB
 200Hz - 97dB
 300Hz - 97dB
 400Hz - 96dB
 500Hz - 96dB
 600Hz - 96dB
 700Hz - 96dB
 800Hz - 96dB
 900Hz - 95dB
 1kHz - 95dB
 2kHz - 96dB
 3kHz -103dB
 4kHz - 98dB
 5kHz - 92dB
 6kHz - 97dB
 7kHz - 90dB
 8kHz - 83dB
 9kHz - 77dB
 10kHz - 73dB

*WBFK*-30019 ($40.19 - Mouser)
http://www.knowles.com/search/prods_...-30019-000.pdf
 HF Extension: 77dB at 10kHz
 1st Peak - 4.1kHz (103dB)
 2nd Peak -7.1kHz (96dB)
 100 - 88dB
 200 - 90dB
 300 - 90dB
 400 - 91dB
 500 - 91dB
 600 - 91dB
 700 - 91dB
 800 - 91dB
 900 - 91dB
 1kHz - 91dB
 2kHz - 92dB
 3kHz - 95dB
 4kHz - 103dB
 5kHz - 95dB
 6kHz - 93dB
 7kHz - 96dB
 8kHz - 90dB
 9kHz - 80dB
 10kHz - 76dB

 WHAT I THINK

 The TWFK clearly has better bass, which is to be expected since it is a dual woofer/tweeter. As woofers go, it's not promising anything heavy. What you're really getting is a relatively smooth, flat, performance right up through 2kHz. For heavier bass, you'll need a dedicated woofer/subwoofer. The 6dB spike at 3kHz levels to a +2dB spike by 4kHz and troughs to 92dB (-4) by 5kHz before hitting the second spike, a mild 97dB (+1) at 6kHz before the roll-off. From 6kHz, it's an approxiately 7dB drop per kHz, still pumping 73dB (-23dB) at 10kHz.

 As a single wide-range driver, the WBFK has diminished bass (by about 8dB at 100Hz narrowing to about 5dB by 500Hz). Like the TWFK, it provides a relatively flat and smooth response through the midrange, spiking 8dB (2dB more than the TWFK) but at 4kHz (1kHz higher than the TWFK). It's in the HF that the WBFK offers an interesting alternative to the TWFK. Consider the following comparison.

 FREQ - TWFK - WBFK
 1kHz - 95dB - 91dB (-4)
 2kHz - 96dB - 92dB (-4)
 3kHz -103dB - 95dB (-8)
 4kHz - 98dB - 103dB (+5)
 5kHz - 92dB - 95dB (+3)
 6kHz - 97dB - 93dB (+4)
 7kHz - 90dB - 96dB (+6)
 8kHz - 83dB - 90dB (+7)
 9kHz - 77dB - 80dB (+3)
 10kHz - 73dB - 76dB (+3)

 Both "tweeters" provide excellent frequency response throughout, with the TWFK providing more bass and midrange and louder treble up through 4kHz. But by 5kHz, the WBFK clearly provides more HF and ends up with 3dB more sizzle at 10kHz. If you're looking for the IEM version of a "supertweeter" (recognizing the hyperbole in the statement), the WBFK-30019 is the treble freak's tweeter of choice.


----------



## cetoole

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bilavideo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is where I got my wires crossed. In loudspeaker design, crossover networks have high-pass filters for the tweeters, low-pass filters for the woofers, and band-pass filters (establishing a floor and ceiling frequency) for the midrange (assuming it's a three-way crossover). In a basic First Order Butterworth, caps are used for the high-pass and inductors are used for the low-pass. When I contacted KA about this, their rep said inductors aren't used in earphone crossovers because of the hum. It's obviously not an issue in loudspeaker designs, where the woofer is sitting across the room and the woofer's output is so much greater, but in an earphone, nobody wants to deal with the distortion. Fair enough, but without inductors, I wondered how manufacturers would create a decent low-pass. KA spoke of using caps and resistors. Resistors increase impedence, using lowering volume across the spectrum. You could use a resistor to balance impedence and reign in a wild driver from drowning out its neighbor, but I still didn't see how a resistor would create a low-pass filter._

 

RC lowpass filter, series resistor, cap to ground. Pretty simple, works well. Just think about it as an impedance divider. The resistor has constant (practically speaking) impedance WRT frequency, while the capacitor has decreasing impedance with frequency. At low frequencies, nearly all of the signal is allowed to pass, but as you go up, more and more is shunted to ground.


----------



## Bilavideo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cetoole* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_RC lowpass filter, series resistor, cap to ground. Pretty simple, works well. Just think about it as an impedance divider. The resistor has constant (practically speaking) impedance WRT frequency, while the capacitor has decreasing impedance with frequency. At low frequencies, nearly all of the signal is allowed to pass, but as you go up, more and more is shunted to ground._

 

Cetoole, you are the man!

 Hey, everybody, check this out. http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...c/filcap2.html

http://www.ecircuitcenter.com/Circui.../lpfilter1.htm

http://www.falstad.com/circuit/e-filt-lopass.html

http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/.../filter_2.html


----------



## Bilavideo

Okay, I've got a question now. Let's say we have an SR series driver, with a DC resistance of 25 ohms and impedences of 36.5 ohms at 500 Hz and 55.5 ohms at 1 kHz. How would we get the values for the resistor and capacitor in an RC low-pass filter if we wanted the cutoff frequency to be 200 Hz?

 Is there anyone willing and able to walk us through this?


----------



## Bilavideo

I just got a ton of great advice from cetoole. When I get a chance I'll post some of excerpts. This guy is amazing!


----------



## Bilavideo

I got an extensive PM from Cetoole about designing crossover circuits to tailor the cutoff. It was so extensive that when I excerpted parts of the e-mail, I think I garbled some of his ideas. (Sorry about that.)

 In an effort to perhaps simplify the point for a layman like myself, Cetoole summarized his advice as follows: 

 "Basically the way I think you would design the crossover would be just to determine sensitivities, then calculate for the correct insertion loss to balance the nominal outputs of the different drivers, and then calculate the filter capacitor."


----------



## Bilavideo

NEW DEVELOPMENTS

 1. I took some earmold foam and made foam models of my ear canals.

 2. I got some UM3X shells from a friend in Canada who sent in his UM3X to be customized. While I don't want to copy Westone's specific housing design, I think the UM3X provides a good example of the relationship between the shape of customs and its approximation among universals.







 As you can see from the only photo I was able to upload (freakin' batteries!) there's not a lot of extra space in the UM3X shell. With the connector wire and a miniature crossover circuit, the housing is used up. This will allow me to pop in the CI-22955 and the TWFK, but nothing more ambitious than that. When I get some fresh batteries, I'll show you the foamy molds I made. They're much more spacious (while avoiding any sacrifice in fit). I think the UM3X goes small, to maximize its fit with lots of ear shapes and sizes. A custom mold allows more expandability.

 CROSSOVER UPDATE

 I found a pretty cool website with a calculator for determining cutoff frequencies for both high-pass and low-pass filters. It won't tell you what values to plug in for the resistor and cap in an RC filter, but it gives you the ability to see what effect different choices would have. Here it is: http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-RCpad.htm


----------



## Bilavideo

After getting the UM3X shells and examining their limitations (just enough space for a triple), I'm beginning to think that shells are unncessary. I got into this so I could talk about ways to build DIY IEMs, not to make the process more difficult or more expensive than necessary. I think I'm going to go back to the tips. I've put together a quad (involving about $104 in drivers) and it easily accommodates a medium Shure olive. What I want to do next is pop in that next driver to create a "super six." 

 What I have so far needs filters and a crossover, but the six-driver arrangement is worth doing.


----------



## RubbberDucky

By the time you make yourself a pair you will be ready to make your own company and compete with the big boys! Hahaha! This is looking awesome, and so far over my newbie head that it makes me wonder if I will ever understand... Good luck!


----------



## specto

so cool...


----------



## Bilavideo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RubbberDucky* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_By the time you make yourself a pair you will be ready to make your own company and compete with the big boys! Hahaha! This is looking awesome, and so far over my newbie head that it makes me wonder if I will ever understand... Good luck!_

 

RubberDucky, don't let these pages intimidate you. When we first set out to make IEMs a DIY experience, a number of us began researching various aspects of IEM design. Lots of questions arose:

 What drivers should we use?
 How many drivers are optimal?
 How do we create a crossover small enough to fit in a shell.
 How do we build the shells?
 Where do we go to get tubing and filters?
 What filters should we use?
 How do we create a decent housing?
 What kind of wire is best for connecting the drivers and crossover?
 What wire should we use to hook everything up to a sound source?
 What kind of connectors should we use for the housing?
 What kind of connectors should we use to hook up the sound source?

 We didn't know what we were doing. We still don't know everything. But with each step, we're drawing closer to the good stuff. Things are coming together. The best part about it is that a person can finally take ownership of the monitors. People can decide what drivers they want and how many. They can decide where to cross the drivers over. This is the future, one where ordinary listeners get what they want - without all the mystical, magical, mumbo jumbo.

 Like my Dad always said, "Don't sell yourself short."


----------



## RubbberDucky

Well maybe one day I will understand... Today I took my first baby step in the DIY audio world! I began work on my first custom interconnects! I still need to solder the connections, however I have never soldered and I do not own an iron. I am waiting to order my soldering iron when I have the money. It's either wait or use my gradfather's old dusty and dirty one that I am not sure works... But I don't want it to compromise the connection so for now we wait. 

 By the sound of it, making your own IEMs has to cost one pretty penny! 

 How hard would it be to make some decent single driver IEMs? Wouldn't that not require a crossover and you would be less concerned about space constraints. But I am sure there is some wild wiring I wouldn't understand. I need a "Custom IEMs For Dummies" book.


----------



## Bilavideo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RubbberDucky* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_By the sound of it, making your own IEMs has to cost one pretty penny! How hard would it be to make some decent single driver IEMs? Wouldn't that not require a crossover and you would be less concerned about space constraints. But I am sure there is some wild wiring I wouldn't understand. I need a "Custom IEMs For Dummies" book._

 

You'd be surprised. 

 Although the CI-22955 is used as a woofer because of its high output (114 dB at 200 Hz), an undamped driver does a decent job of covering the spectrum through about 6 kHz. It won't give you the highest highs but when I tried on a pair, I was surprised at how good they could sound. At $53 a pair (through Mouser), it's just a matter of soldering a replacement cable, which you can get as expensively or as cheaply as you like. There's no need for a fancy shell. The drivers are small enough to pop into an eartip. The one place for special care is in soldering the wires to the drivers' pads and in bracing the wire to something other than the drivers' pads so you don't rip the pads out if the cord gets a strong yank. If you're going for cheap cheap, you could make an earphone with these for less than $70.

 The least expensive option is to go with the BK series, which will run you about $38/pair. With these, you'll get less HF extension but the sound is surprisingly good and you can make earphones out of these for less than $50.

 Personally, if I were going for a single driver, I'd actually buy a single "dual" driver: the TWFK. This is KA's best and smallest dual, running about $103/pair. The sizzle of the tweeter side is so sweet, I'd buy it for the value.


----------



## RubbberDucky

So there are no other little electronic components necessary other than the Cable and the driver? It would be really cool to put them in a custom mold and figure out how to get a little jack in there that would accept the Ultimate Ears replacement cables. But by that time I would have probably spent more time and money on it than buying some nice dual customs from Alien Ears. Not to mention the fact that they wouldn't be a nice translucent blue acrylic. It would be very difficult to work with custom molds of my ears, at least they are big... However they would be Mine, and I love making things. Maybe I will give it a go in a few months. I always have you guys to ask for help when the going gets rough!


----------



## Bilavideo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RubbberDucky* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So there are no other little electronic components necessary other than the Cable and the driver?_

 

On a single driver IEM, there's no crossover. If the HF came off as harsh, you could add a filter to each outlet, but we're talking about a $3 upgrade. The white filters are the least intrusive. KA recommends them for the TWFK as a way of smoothing out some of the HF. If I were using them on something like the CI-22955, which already tapers the HF, I wouldn't go heavier than that, because you're using the wide-range single to get both high and low. 

 So yeah, to get sound, all you have to do is solder a connection. Once wired for sound, you can pop them into an earpiece and run like the wind. It's not complicated at all. When you consider the mark-up for molded plastic, this is really the poor man's wa of laughing all the way to the bank.

  Quote:


 It would be really cool to put them in a custom mold and figure out how to get a little jack in there that would accept the Ultimate Ears replacement cables. 
 

Depending on the cable you get, Ultimate Ears offers some of the best prices on earphone cable. For the universals, the replacement cable is only $20. For the customs, the replacement cable is $36. Either way, it's pretty cheap.


----------



## RubbberDucky

Wow that is really cool. So the problem for me would probably be finding the earpeice. Has anyone on here made their own IEMs with a custom mold? My ears are shaped too weird to like universals.

 If I made a custom cable for them would there be a ground for both? I have never messed with earphones or headphones wiring. :/ 

 This is awesome stuff! I totally want to try it. These forums are awesome, but I wish there were some how to videos. I just like videos haha! Maybe I will just have to make some for the other noobs out there...


----------



## Bilavideo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RubbberDucky* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wow that is really cool. So the problem for me would probably be finding the earpeice. Has anyone on here made their own IEMs with a custom mold? My ears are shaped too weird to like universals._

 

Check this out. http://cre.ations.net/creation/creat...ear-headphones

  Quote:


 If I made a custom cable for them would there be a ground for both? I have never messed with earphones or headphones wiring. :/ 
 

You can have any wiring you like. That's the beauty of the thing. You can go three-wire or even completely balanced.


----------



## RubbberDucky

Ive seen that before, but he uses some stuff that might cause an allergic reaction. Plus he used those crap little speakers out of $5 headphones.

 How would you wire it? Haha! Im too new to know what is best.


----------



## Bilavideo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RubbberDucky* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ive seen that before, but he uses some stuff that might cause an allergic reaction. Plus he used those crap little speakers out of $5 headphones.

 How would you wire it? Haha! Im too new to know what is best._

 

He's using epoxy. When I looked into it, I wasn't wild about putting anything into my ear that might be toxic or flammable. I'd rather cast acrylic, even if I had to do it without a $2,000 plastic injection molder. 

 For a reasonable price, you can make ear impressions - either with a $15 home kit or for $50 through an audiologist. Once you have workable impressions, you can send them off to any number of places that will make acrylic plastic moldings with a professional plastic injection molder. There are companies in China that will do the work for cheap. Once you have a custom fit, professionally-molded shell, you can put whatever you want inside it. That seems like the most convenient way to have the best of both worlds: Let the pros make the housing while you design the configuration inside.

 Unfortunately, this violates the goal I set out for myself at the beginning, which was to make a do-it-yourself earphone from materials and equipment available to the average listener. While anybody could go get impressions from an audiologist and send off to China for a custom-built earmold, I considered doing so a cheat - at least for me, because I'm trying to explore what the average person could do on his or her own. I'm looking for a hack that could let the little guy outsmart the pros.

 So, until I get past this acrylic-casting hurdle, I'm working with universal eartips. With a glue gun, a soldering iron and a cheap hands-free device from Radio Shack, there's a lot you can do on your own. Also, I recently picked up some soft silicone earplugs from Walmart, which have made experimentation cheap and fun. With the silicone, I was able to fabricate, by hand, the right-shaped part to seal the ear canal. The result was a deeper, more profound, bass - the kinds of things customs-owners talk about. It cost me all of $4. If I could cure the silicone into something hard, I'd have what I need at a fraction of the cost.


----------



## RubbberDucky

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bilavideo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_He's using epoxy. When I looked into it, I wasn't wild about putting anything into my ear that might be toxic or flammable. I'd rather cast acrylic, even if I had to do it without a $2,000 plastic injection molder. 

 For a reasonable price, you can make ear impressions - either with a $15 home kit or for $50 through an audiologist. Once you have workable impressions, you can send them off to any number of places that will make acrylic plastic moldings with a professional plastic injection molder. There are companies in China that will do the work for cheap. Once you have a custom fit, professionally-molded shell, you can put whatever you want inside it. That seems like the most convenient way to have the best of both worlds: Let the pros make the housing while you design the configuration inside.

 Unfortunately, this violates the goal I set out for myself at the beginning, which was to make a do-it-yourself earphone from materials and equipment available to the average listener. While anybody could go get impressions from an audiologist and send off to China for a custom-built earmold, I considered doing so a cheat - at least for me, because I'm trying to explore what the average person could do on his or her own. I'm looking for a hack that could let the little guy outsmart the pros.

 So, until I get past this acrylic-casting hurdle, I'm working with universal eartips. With a glue gun, a soldering iron and a cheap hands-free device from Radio Shack, there's a lot you can do on your own. Also, I recently picked up some soft silicone earplugs from Walmart, which have made experimentation cheap and fun. With the silicone, I was able to fabricate, by hand, the right-shaped part to seal the ear canal. The result was a deeper, more profound, bass - the kinds of things customs-owners talk about. It cost me all of $4. If I could cure the silicone into something hard, I'd have what I need at a fraction of the cost._

 

I would have tried it as well, but the flammable/Possibly toxic epoxy that might get stuck in your ear didn't sound like the smartest way to go... 

 If you DID cheat yourself, do you have a specific company/site you would use to buy the molds?

 We need to find a good alternative to Acrylic... Too bad we can't make a ghetto DIY injection molder. $2000 is a little out of my budget, hahaha! Don't some companies actually use silicone for some of their custom molds?

 Or we could just buy a couple of those plastic injection molders and start our own little custom IEM business! Then we could make ourselves all the IEMs we want! Not to mention the fun of experimenting with all that stuff!


----------



## meraj.salek

Quote:


 Or we could just buy a couple of those plastic injection molders and start our own little custom IEM business! Then we could make ourselves all the IEMs we want! Not to mention the fun of experimenting with all that stuff! 
 

where do i sign up?


----------



## RubbberDucky

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *meraj.salek* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_where do i sign up?
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

Doesn't that sound like fun? Plus there would be so many people on Head-Fi that would love to get in on it and they would provide awesome feedback.


----------



## Bilavideo

It would be cool if we had a supplier who did nothing but make empty custom molds so that DIYers could put in whatever driver configuration they liked. It would be even cooler if that supplier did this for a reasonable price.


----------



## RubbberDucky

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bilavideo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It would be cool if we had a supplier who did nothing but make empty custom molds so that DIYers could put in whatever driver configuration they liked. It would be even cooler if that supplier did this for a reasonable price._

 

Agreed. What about the ones in China you were talking about?


----------



## Billyk

Been away from the thread for a while, sorry if this has been covered. I used to make reasonably complex parts from a vacuum molding process that was fairly straight forward. I had a master from which I made a silicone mold and then a cast of the master out of several materials. This was all for ultrasonic monitoring devices so everything was approved for use by humans. I could go into details if you were interested. I am sure it should translate into what you want to do.


----------



## RubbberDucky

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Billyk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Been away from the thread for a while, sorry if this has been covered. I used to make reasonably complex parts from a vacuum molding process that was fairly straight forward. I had a master from which I made a silicone mold and then a cast of the master out of several materials. This was all for ultrasonic monitoring devices so everything was approved for use by humans. I could go into details if you were interested. I am sure it should translate into what you want to do._

 

Are you saying you are able to produce custom ear molds? Or are you saying you might know what we could use for the molds? I am slightly confused, as you can tell. hahaha!


----------



## Billyk

It's more like I know a process by which we can create the custom ear molds. Starting with an impression from the ear we make a silicone mold and then make the casting out of whatever material you desire as long as it has a liquid stage. You do this by creating a vacuum chamber, placing the mold into it and drawing the casting material into the mold by creating the vacuum. You also de-air the material in the vacuum first to insure no air bubbles in your casting. I think a vacuum pump from Harbor Freight for air conditioner service and a bell jar isn't that much so the set-up should be a reasonable cost.


----------



## RubbberDucky

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Billyk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's more like I know a process by which we can create the custom ear molds. Starting with an impression from the ear we make a silicone mold and then make the casting out of whatever material you desire as long as it has a liquid stage. You do this by creating a vacuum chamber, placing the mold into it and drawing the casting material into the mold by creating the vacuum. You also de-air the material in the vacuum first to insure no air bubbles in your casting. I think a vacuum pump from Harbor Freight for air conditioner service and a bell jar isn't that much so the set-up should be a reasonable cost._

 

Plus you could use the setup more than once, if I am not mistaken... I wish there was a video of this or something. Id love to see how it works!


----------



## Billyk

Yes you could use this to make lots of stuff. It's a cool process I learned about 30 years ago when I was working for a small shop that made ultrasonic transducers that were used in hospital for prenatal monitoring. 
 Very straightforward process. You mix up the silicone, place it in the chamber, draw a vacuum so it removes all of the air, eliminating bubbles. Pour a cast of what you want to mold and let it dry. Carefully split the mold and remove the casting. Here is the cool part. put your mold together and make a hole in it to allow a piece of tubing to fit in it in a way that the casting material can enter the void. Put the tubing in that hole and place the whole thing in the vacuum chamber. You will need to figure out how to get the tubing out of the chamber while allowing you to pull a vacuum. I had a hole in the bottom of the chamber and I sealed it with wax and vacuum oil. So now you have your mold with the tubing in the chamber, the tube leads out of the chamber. Put the end of the tube that is out of the chamber in the de-aired (do that first, forgot that part) casting material. Now when you pull a vacuum on the chamber it will draw the casting material into the mold. If all goes well you will have an accurate casting with NO bubbles.

 Hope I explained it well!


----------



## RubbberDucky

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Billyk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes you could use this to make lots of stuff. It's a cool process I learned about 30 years ago when I was working for a small shop that made ultrasonic transducers that were used in hospital for prenatal monitoring. 
 Very straightforward process. You mix up the silicone, place it in the chamber, draw a vacuum so it removes all of the air, eliminating bubbles. Pour a cast of what you want to mold and let it dry. Carefully split the mold and remove the casting. Here is the cool part. put your mold together and make a hole in it to allow a piece of tubing to fit in it in a way that the casting material can enter the void. Put the tubing in that hole and place the whole thing in the vacuum chamber. You will need to figure out how to get the tubing out of the chamber while allowing you to pull a vacuum. I had a hole in the bottom of the chamber and I sealed it with wax and vacuum oil. So now you have your mold with the tubing in the chamber, the tube leads out of the chamber. Put the end of the tube that is out of the chamber in the de-aired (do that first, forgot that part) casting material. Now when you pull a vacuum on the chamber it will draw the casting material into the mold. If all goes well you will have an accurate casting with NO bubbles.

 Hope I explained it well!_

 

I am getting totally confused between Casts and Molds and how we would use the Impression from our ear. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Bear with me, I am a slow learner, haha!


----------



## Billyk

Sorry to be so confusing...
 What I mean in my descriptions is this. We start with an impression of our ear canal (probably from a kit or an audiologist), from this we make our mold, once we have a mold we then make the casting. The casting should be identical to the impression but out of the material we want to make our IEMs from. I am sure I am leaving out details like how to make a mold that leaves a hollow for the transducers, etc.


----------



## RubbberDucky

Its ok, I was just confused on the definitions of the words and how you were using them. Ive never done any molding or casting...

 That part might be a little tricky, but I suppose we could drill out the spaces, at least for a single driver.

 I wonder if we could use this process with acrylic, I dont know how to get it in a liquid stage, etc.


----------



## Billyk

It would be liquid before you added a catalyst/hardener. Check out these folks.


----------



## RubbberDucky

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Billyk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It would be liquid before you added a catalyst/hardener. Check out these folks._

 

I see now... That's a cool site. It would be interesting to make the molds out of different materials. I wonder why they use acrylic.


----------



## Bilavideo

They use acrylic because it's hard and clear. Acrylic is the material of choice for a glass substitute. It's the most sought-after plastic for imitating crystal and other high-quality glass. It just looks awesome.


----------



## Bilavideo

HOMEMADE CABLE

 I'm not patient enough to braid my cable, but I bought several colors of wire (22 gauge I think) off of a seller on Ebay. I took four such wires and made a four-wire cable which is multi-colored, light and extremely strong. I estimate the cost of this four-wire cable to be about $6. Add to it the cost of a right-angle connector and we're talking about $8 plus elbow grease. The home-grown cable brings means that, with the right driver, a sub-$50 BA monitor is possible.


----------



## Clutz

How are you going to go about placing the drivers within the acrylic when you make the mold? How do you go about creating the channels from the drivers to the outside to transmit the sound waves? One of the things I'm curious about is resonance of the drivers and how you're going to mount them. If you put them close to each other, I'm worried that they could influence each other. I'm following this thread Bilavideo- you may convince me yet.


----------



## RubbberDucky

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Clutz* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How are you going to go about placing the drivers within the acrylic when you make the mold? How do you go about creating the channels from the drivers to the outside to transmit the sound waves? One of the things I'm curious about is resonance of the drivers and how you're going to mount them. If you put them close to each other, I'm worried that they could influence each other. I'm following this thread Bilavideo- you may convince me yet._

 

Lets make the mold first, eh?  

 Hahaha! Its hard to say when nobody has been able to make one yet, save Mr. Epoxy guy from this site.


----------



## RubbberDucky

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bilavideo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_HOMEMADE CABLE

 I'm not patient enough to braid my cable, but I bought several colors of wire (22 gauge I think) off of a seller on Ebay. I took four such wires and made a four-wire cable which is multi-colored, light and extremely strong. I estimate the cost of this four-wire cable to be about $6. Add to it the cost of a right-angle connector and we're talking about $8 plus elbow grease. The home-grown cable brings means that, with the right driver, a sub-$50 BA monitor is possible._

 

That is great news! I just made a DIY interconnect yesterday, so I am sure this is about the same, if not easier. Can you post a picture or a link to one?


----------



## Bilavideo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Clutz* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How are you going to go about placing the drivers within the acrylic when you make the mold?_

 

That's not a major problem. There are different ways to do this. One is to cast the acrylic with pockets just the right size for each driver. Another is to place the drivers, then use a syringe, not unlike the kind used to do earmolds, to squirt in silicone that hardens over time or when hit with UV rays.

 As it is, acrylic casting is not a process I've gotten into yet, so it's both a problem I haven't personally solved yet and a problem I don't have yet. Depending on the number of drivers sought, you may not need shells at all. For example, I've been able to build earphones with up to four drivers built inside a foamy earpiece. Depending on the drivers used, you could have as many as 10 drivers without needing a shell at all. The TWFK is so small, you can pack as many as six of these into an earpiece (12 drivers) without having to build an additional shell. 

 An easy single-driver earpiece (at a reasonable price) is the CI-22955, placed directly into an eartip and soldered. With a hot-glue gun, you put a blob of hot glue onto the ends, as stress relief (so you don't yank out the cables on your first good tug).

  Quote:


 How do you go about creating the channels from the drivers to the outside to transmit the sound waves? 
 

Hearing aid companies make various gauges of tubing. It's how hearing aids have been made for years. For the longest time, the receiver/speaker unit was so large it had to fit behind the earlobe, with sound being piped around the lobe and into the ear canal via sound tubes and ear hooks. It goes without saying, then, that the sound tube problem has been resolved and the technology there for decades.

 I like to use a company called Microsonic:
Earmold Tubing, Accessories & Supplies

 Here's a page that deals with nothing but tubing: 
Earmold Tubing, Accessories & Supplies - NAEL Standard Tubing Sizes (Single Bend Quilled)

 You can get good tubing for a whopping 35 cents per foot:
203 - #12 Standard Tubing - Bulk (by the foot) - 203

 We're not reinventing the wheel. We're just taking over the means of production.

  Quote:


 One of the things I'm curious about is resonance of the drivers and how you're going to mount them. If you put them close to each other, I'm worried that they could influence each other. I'm following this thread Bilavideo- you may convince me yet. 
 

With a single-driver design, resonance is not much of an issue. In multi-driver designs, there are lots of ways to damp the drivers to reduce resonance. Look closely at some commercial designs and you'll see the drivers separated. They're placed in different locales within the shell. Where a material is injected into the mold, that material is used to also damp any resonance between the two drivers.

 That said, and I'm speaking as the philistine I am, I've slapped drivers together and heard no difference. As I've said, you can place a material between the drivers to damp the resonance, but even without it, you'd be amazed at how great they sound. The real issue is how you filter the drivers, which takes a little more effort. For $13, you can get a baggie of 10 colored filters (from 680 to 4700 ohms). You only need two filters at a time, which is $2.60 worth of filtering. To fit them to the sound outlet, you'll need a little bit of tubing, which will have to be hot-glued onto the front of each driver filtered.

 Here are some links to pictures I've taken from previous projects:http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f6/hom...88/index9.html

 Here is a link posted by a fellow poster, showing how the Super Fi 5 separates the drivers: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f6/hom...8/index10.html

 Here is a link showing both how the UM3X does nothing to separate the drivers. It also shows some more pictures of previous projects: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f6/hom...8/index12.html


----------



## musick7

The Cables aren't a big deal, actually you can purchase the Adapters I believe though DigiKey.com or Mouser.com. Your talking about the Cable that plugs into the Ipod or whatever? You want the little 2 port connecter that is mounted inside the ear mold right? If thats it there really really cheap... maybe 3 bucks probably .50 cents.

 If you play your cards right you can get much if not all for very very cheap. Sonion.com and Knowles.com have the Receivers "Speakers. There is some other places that make them too but those are the top Players I believe. You can Have your Ear Impression done by an Audiologist or do it your self. An Audiologist will charge between $50. - $90. There are Many Websites that will Tell you EXACTLY how to do an Impression. Westone has a great Tutorial along with many others. And once that is done Send them to a place like, In'Tech Industries Incorported - Manufacture of miniature plastic hearing aid component parts, faceplates, battery doors and other hearing aid components. 
 Which is where I am having my CIC shells made. For my Hearing Aid Project.


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RubbberDucky* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So there are no other little electronic components necessary other than the Cable and the driver? It would be really cool to put them in a custom mold and figure out how to get a little jack in there that would accept the Ultimate Ears replacement cables. But by that time I would have probably spent more time and money on it than buying some nice dual customs from Alien Ears. Not to mention the fact that they wouldn't be a nice translucent blue acrylic. It would be very difficult to work with custom molds of my ears, at least they are big... However they would be Mine, and I love making things. Maybe I will give it a go in a few months. I always have you guys to ask for help when the going gets rough!_


----------



## thammuz

Boy am I interested in this... Haven't read the thread for awhile.

 My sister is in her second year of Plastics Engineering. ;p


----------



## RubbberDucky

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thammuz* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Boy am I interested in this... Haven't read the thread for awhile.

 My sister is in her second year of Plastics Engineering. ;p_

 

Then have her help us out by making some cheap acryllic molds!


----------



## RubbberDucky

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *musick7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The Cables aren't a big deal, actually you can purchase the Adapters I believe though DigiKey.com or Mouser.com. Your talking about the Cable that plugs into the Ipod or whatever? You want the little 2 port connecter that is mounted inside the ear mold right? If thats it there really really cheap... maybe 3 bucks probably .50 cents.

 If you play your cards right you can get much if not all for very very cheap. Sonion.com and Knowles.com have the Receivers "Speakers. There is some other places that make them too but those are the top Players I believe. You can Have your Ear Impression done by an Audiologist or do it your self. An Audiologist will charge between $50. - $90. There are Many Websites that will Tell you EXACTLY how to do an Impression. Westone has a great Tutorial along with many others. And once that is done Send them to a place like, In'Tech Industries Incorported - Manufacture of miniature plastic hearing aid component parts, faceplates, battery doors and other hearing aid components. 
 Which is where I am having my CIC shells made. For my Hearing Aid Project._

 

I didnt know they sold the little 2 pin adapter, thanks! Now I need a really cheap place to get some good looking acrylic earmolds!


----------



## musick7

Thought Id give a everyone a one up. Bilavideo and I have been talking for awhile now in PM and I haven't posted to much, I've been keeping my Project under raps, and really only discussed it with Bilavideo. 
 So let me fill you guys in a bit. 
 I am in the process of making a Hearing Instrument and I've just about have everything. I'm still waiting on the Knowles Acoustics Transducers and Receivers to come in along with Telecoils and switches from them. 

 I have had the Digital Signal Processor "DSP's" for about a month now or a little longer, and have just been waiting on everything to arrive. 
 I Have my DSP Programmer I got in HI Pro which is well known in the Audiology world. 
 I have all the software that is full blown Hearing aid software. All this was provided by the DSP Company.
 I still need to order in the Capacitors and little stuff like that.... Those wont be to much money and fast arrival.

 The In Ear Molds or IMPRESSIONS I sent of Tuesday Morning to a Company who deals with some well known hearing aid companies.
 I ordered 2 Completely In Canal "CIC" Hollow Shells. They are CLEAR and the guy I talked to said it looks just like GLASS. The Face Plate and Battery Door will be skin tone. And YES I have a Serial # on Each one. You know it! Its my Name dang it!!
 The Final Cost of Each CIC shell with Doors and all. Come to $55. for TWO shells. Yes Made on CNC Mills.

 Right now I've got $280. in the entire Project. And the only Thing I need to get now is the Resistors and Caps. and 4 SubMiniature Pushbutton Switches.

 The Final Cost for 2 Digital Hearing Instruments should be below $330. And the DSP I am using is found in Several Very High End models that sell well over $2000.00 And that price is for One!

 I also had a hard time finding the LITZ wire used in Hearing Aids. This stuff is 7 Strand 46 AWG and 7 Strand 48 AWG. 
 However I got that from the UK and its the only place that makes it I believe It is the size of 5 or 7 hairs put together it seems like it might be closer to 4 hairs....

 And a supplier to Make the Ear Impressions I found. They have everything you need to make the Impressions and also Make your own MOLDS for the SHELLS themselves! You could make your own Headphone shells including the impressions if you know what your doing for under 100. And that would get you at least 6 pairs if not 10.
 Any questions PM me.


----------



## Billyk

Now that's exciting...


----------



## WalkGood

Been away a while, any pictures yet?


----------



## lars9

I'm also interested in this thread and eager to start my own DIY single driver IEM.

 I'm currently in the stage of choosing drivers. TWFK seems like a good full range driver. But its sensitivity is only 95 dB, which is much lower than BKs(118-126), CIs(125) etc, what does that mean? Will TWFK be hard to drive on portable devices like latop and ipod? Thanks.


----------



## Bilavideo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lars9* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm also interested in this thread and eager to start my own DIY single driver IEM.

 I'm currently in the stage of choosing drivers. TWFK seems like a good full range driver. But its sensitivity is only 95 dB, which is much lower than BKs(118-126), CIs(125) etc, what does that mean? Will TWFK be hard to drive on portable devices like latop and ipod? Thanks._

 

You are right in concluding that sensitivity is the microdriver equivalent of SPL but a sensitivity of 95 dB will not make the TWFK hard to drive. I've wired them up and they can be quite loud. The CI has a higher sensitivity, due in part to its larger size, which makes it resonate more easily, but it needs the higher sensitivity. If you look at the frequency performance graph for this driver, it's not really a "woofer" on its own. Its biggest area of performance is the midrange. It becomes a woofer through filtering. As you cut out the high end, through mechanical (cloth) filtering, you're essentially wasting a fair portion of this SPL to get only the bass. Even without any electrical crossover, the two drivers tend to even out once you've applied mechanical filtering.

 Does this mean that the TWFK isn't harder to drive? Yes and no. Any chance in sensitivity reflects a technical difference in drive-ability. But it's like comparing the PFEs to the Westones. The PFE is "harder" to drive but not really "hard" to drive. The Westones are louder but once you crank up the PFE, it performs very nicely right out of an iPod (though a single driver is not going to have the same range as a multi-driver arrangement with a fantastic tweeter). The TWFK is not the ultimate in high-frequency extension but it's so close, and provides a dual driver platform, that it's hard not to use. For $40 per channel, the WBFK 30019 will technically drive a little higher (with a first and second spike of 104 dB at 4 kHz and 96 dB just after 7 kHz as opposed to the TWFK's first and second spikes of 103 dB at 3 kHz and 96 dB just after 7 kHz). Both top out at 10 kHz with the WBFK 30019 delivering 76 dB and the TWFK delivering 74 dB - but these are very close (and probably less reliable) specs. The real difference between the TWFK and the WBFK 30019 is that the TWFK has a second driver, a woofer, giving it better bass performance (96 dB as opposed to 94 dB at 100 Hz). 

 As you'd expect, neither driver delivers heavy bass but the relatively flat performance throughout much of the frequency spectrum makes both drivers attractive. But with the dual driver platform, the TWFK (at $52) offers a little better value. For $40, you can make the CI-22955 a double or for $52 you can make it a triple. You can see how manufacturers like the ability to promise a triple at a budget. A purist might go with the WBFK 30019 for that last sliver of treble, relying on the CI-22955 or the SR for the bass end but then use some other driver for midrange. But given the impressive flat performance of the TWFK and WBFK 30019 throughout much of the spectrum (and the likelihood that you won't hear any actual difference at the top), I don't think it's worth it to buy a dedicated midrange when both of these drivers provide it so well. With the TWFK, you get a little push at the lowest end and terrific specs in both the midrange and treble. Pairing it with a filtered CI-22955 is a total no-brainer.

 That said, there's an answer for someone who worries about variations in sensibility, which is to double up. The TWFK is so tiny, you could put a pair of them into an earpiece and still take up less space than a single CI-22955. If you did, you'd auomatically have a quad. For my money, there's something cool about the idea of doubling up on TWFKs strapped to a single CI-22955 to create a quint. Bassheads might enjoy the super six, strapping a pair of heavily filtered CI-22955s to a pair of TWFKs. 

 Whatever the case, driveability is not an issue. These are relatively low-impedence drivers. They'll get as loud as you could ever want.


----------



## Bilavideo

A question was raised about the BKs. They're very cheap ($18/channel) and they sound surprisingly good for the money. The CIs sound better, and for the extra $8/channel, that's how I would go. The difference between these larger drivers and the TWFK is in the high end. The TWFK has a sizzle you won't get from either the CI or the BK. It's really meant to have that dedicated tweeter. I was skeptical about this at first, and even more so when I tried out the CI and found it to be every bit as good as the PFEs. But when I did an A/B test between the CI and the TWFK, there was no comparison. You know how we audiofreaks can sometimes convince ourselves that we're eating the organic banana when we're really just eating the regular banana? Well, that's not the case with the TWFK. The CI sounds great until you hear the TWFK. The sparkling HF of the TWFK stands out and is quite obvious. You can't call it "psychological burn-in." It's there and with such prominence that you'll never want to go back.


----------



## meraj.salek

Quote:


 Whatever the case, driveability is not an issue. These are relatively low-impedence drivers. 
 

But then as you keep paralleling drivers, aren't you lowering the impedance? Wouldn't driveability become an issue with 6 drivers in parallel? Or are they wired in a series/parallel arrangement? Or am I just missing something?


----------



## Bilavideo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *meraj.salek* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_But then as you keep paralleling drivers, aren't you lowering the impedance?_

 

Yes. Assuming they are wired properly, it's easier for two speakers to handle the same load as one speaker. One graph often used in connection with speaker performance is the impedence graph showing the point at which the driver's impedence spikes at the load presented it. If you double the speakers, you effectively half that load, allowing the two speakers to handle up to twice the load short of producing that same impedence spike. 

  Quote:


 Wouldn't driveability become an issue with 6 drivers in parallel? Or are they wired in a series/parallel arrangement? Or am I just missing something? 
 

I'm not an engineer, nor is my position based on number crunching. I suppose an argument could be made that multiple drivers multiply issues, including impedence. I don't, however, have any experience that would lead me to that conclusion. On the contrary, as long as the wiring and the placement didn't produce phase issues, I've always found that several drivers sound better than one, even when those drivers were simply duplicating the same frequency band. 

 To be perfectly candid, I won't be able to speak from experience until I've done what I'm talking about doing. I have, however, noticed that when I wired up the CI-22955 and the TWFK together, I got a lot more SPL. This accords to a big difference in output I'd noticed between my UM3Xs and my PFEs. While the PFEs sounded great, the UM3Xs naturally blew the doors off - in terms of output at the same level of current. The PFE has a sensitivity of 107 dB at 1 mW, with an impedence of 32 ohms. The UM3X has a sensitivity of 124 dB at 1 mW, with an impedence of 56 ohms. What's the deal??

 Given its use of a crossover circuit involving an SMD crossover cap and inductor combo, I'm not surprised that the UM3X has a greater impedence. It's also possible that multiple drivers add to the impedence issues. But the UM3X clearly has a much greater sensitivity (124 dB vs. 107 dB for the PFE). Running A/B tests between the two, I found the difference overwhelming, so much so that I'm inclined to think that doubling drivers improves sound, even if the drivers are covering the same frequency band.

 With respect to the six-driver issue, it should be kept in mind that the TWFK is a "dual driver" in a somewhat nuanced way. There's only one soundport and only one set of pads can be wired up at a time (The second set are merely there for convenience in wiring). When you pair up a CI-22955 with a TWFK, you're really pairing two drivers but getting credit for three. By the same measure, a "super six" using these drivers is really made up of four actual drivers. Even though it's probably the largest of the KA drivers, the CI-22955 is still so much that you could pack a pair into an eartip. In the meantime, the TWFK's, which are much smaller than the CI-22955, can be packed in a pair without really making the package that much larger.


----------



## Spasticteapot

I might suggest some sort of measurement jig?

 I'm told that a reasonably effective "ear" can be built using a Panasonic WM60AY capsule and a bit of rubber tube, which will in turn give useful measurements on frequency and phase response. Combine this with a measurement of impedance over frequency, and you have all the information you need for an old-fashioned crossover. 

 Also, has anyone considered mounting the crossovers in a separate "puck", similar to the integrated volume controls on many cheap headphones? This would allow for the use of an easy-to-design LRC crossover similar to that found in speakers and easy prototyping. Alternately, an active crossover makes for easy design, though it makes amplification rather more complicated.

 Heck, I'd be willing to loan someone my DCX2496 if I was guaranteed a cheap set of kickass headphones out of the deal. I've yet to find any IEMs I actually like, including my Triple-Fis. (Then again, I don't really like headphones in general. If only Scan-Speak started making them...)


----------



## Midnighttown

im looking to do 3mids 3 highs 2 lows any sugesstion drivers?


----------



## MaoDi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Midnighttown* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_im looking to do 3mids 3 highs 2 lows any sugesstion drivers?_

 

i prefer the ED/FED series from Knowles as mid drivers, just like the warmth and signature. For highs, i'm still with the smaller TWFK series. Lows, Knowles CI series, or Sonion's 2000 series.


----------



## Midnighttown

so how many of each is good mao di? thanks


----------



## Bilavideo

I popped open my UM3X case to modify it with filters only to discover the same CI-22955 and TWFK combo I've been talking about, which costs $78 per channel for the drivers, quite a discount from the $350 it would cost to buy one new. For that price you could double the drivers and build a super six.

 After comparing the hearing aid style shell with a simpler arrangement involving an in the ear earpiece, I found no advantage to the hearing aid shell, apart from making a fashion statement.

 I'm going to go shell free. My drivers will have a housing but not an outer ear shell.


----------



## Bilavideo

UM3X IMPROVEMENT

 Westone puts a single filter into its UM3X, a white 680 ohm filter, which is enough to attenuate the HF a little without darkening things up too much. A stronger bass could be obtained, with a different colored filter, but you'd lose HF in the process.

 This week, I tried several new methods for getting extra bass without robbing HF. I originally popped open the UM3X shell so I could wire the drivers separately. One complication I found was in placing the filter within the housing. There is a fairly tight fit between the housing and its components. This may be one reason Westone chooses to place the filter into the outside sound tube. Because the tube assembly is designed to feed directly into the sound tube, with no space for a filter, I tried mounting separate filters in the cushions. This has the benefit of making filter swapping easier.

 One strategy I employed (with pictures to come) was to create a hat (using a combination of stethoscopic tubing and standard hearing-aid tubing) to place two filters side by side: a white filter for HF and a red (or brown, green, red, orange or yellow) filter next to it, for LF. This is not as good an arrangement as placing the filter next to each driver but it's an easier fix and it works. The stronger filters, the bass is much lower and more ominous. 

 You can use a darker filter by itself, but without an EQ correction, the sound signature is muddier and less lively. Placing high and low filters next to each other does a little less for the LF than it would if the filter were placed directly in front of its matching driver (with no pre-mix signals to sort through) but you still get throbbing bass and great HF - without the need for an EQ correction.


----------



## pdupiano

Hey Bill, could you upload high res/closeup pics of the um3x's internals? And when you say 680ohm filter are you talking about a physical filter or an electronic one? I'm having a hard time understanding how it could have a 680 ohm filter(electronically that is).

 Thanks


----------



## MaoDi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Midnighttown* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_so how many of each is good mao di? thanks_

 

One of each is enough. But 2 Ci, 1 Mid, and 1 TWFK is better, but rather an expensive combo without having ever made DIY's.


----------



## Midnighttown

1 TWFK for Highs 2 CI Lows 3 FED for Mids? are these good?


----------



## MaoDi

Just 1 TWFK as high, 2 CI22955 as lows, and 1 ED29689 as mid. This is my choice of drivers based on my own listening and testing of the drivers, and it's what i think sounds nice to me. May be from one person to another though


----------



## Midnighttown

what can you recommend if i want foward vocals? more mid? btw can we configure TWFK as mids?


----------



## MaoDi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Midnighttown* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_what can you recommend if i want foward vocals? more mid? btw can we configure TWFK as mids?_

 

That would have to be up to tuning. A simple way is to use strong resistors for the high and low driver. The TWFK won't be that nice of a mid driver, where as the ED is. The CI is also a nice mid driver.


----------



## Midnighttown

mao? fed or ed? whats their difference?


----------



## sknight

Hey, it might have been addressed, but where are you getting the cables and what kind? I saw one post with Westone's cable, but wondered about alternatives. I'm really interested in a project like this, and perhaps scavenging cases and other parts to load with custom internals to tweak, and maybe to replace the cables on my e3 one day.

 Thanks!


----------



## Bilavideo

Quote:


 Hey Bill, could you upload high res/closeup pics of the um3x's internals? And when you say 680ohm filter are you talking about a physical filter or an electronic one? I'm having a hard time understanding how it could have a 680 ohm filter(electronically that is). 
 

My computer died, which is why I've been away for as long as I have. I'm still updating items on my new computer. As quickly as I can, I'll post pics of the UM3X drivers. Brace yourself for a surprisingly unsurprising experience. Except for the crossover (which is a tiny resistor/cap attached to the TWFK), you're looking at our familiar TWFK/CI-22955 combo.

 As for the filter, I share the headscratching about ohms, but that's how they rate the effectiveness of mechanical/cloth filters. Here they are at Microsonic 318, 319, 320, 321, 322, 323 - Knowles Acoustic Dampers

 White = 680 ohms
 Brown = 1000 ohms
 Green = 1500 ohms
 Red = 2200 ohms
 Orange = 3300 ohms
 Yellow = 4700 ohms

 As the Ohm is the standard unit measuring electrical impedence, it's odd to find it used with a cloth filter, especially where the effect of the latter is to simply screen out certain frequencies - which is does mechanically, not electrically. That, however, is how the game is played. I didn't invent the rules. Like you, I just chuckle at them.

 When it comes to sound signature, the best way to know what you're getting is to listen for yourself. I don't know how you'd factor in these numbers. This combination of electronic and mechanical factors in producing a final sound is something that has been described as being as much art as science. On the other hand, the exciting news is that most of the sound sculpting is done with cloth filters, which can be swapped in and out. If you don't like the sound of your UM3X or SE530 or ER4P or HF10, you can change it. You don't have to wait for a manufacturer to get around to meeting your needs. THAT'S what I call customizing.

  Quote:


 what can you recommend if i want foward vocals? more mid? btw can we configure TWFK as mids? 
 

The TWFK is a wide-range driver with amazingly flat response throughout. It doesn't emphasize any bandwidth, which is why you'd want an additional driver if you want killer bass, but this driver is no slouch when it comes to representing mids. I'd think that the best driver choice would be the one with the flattest response overall. The TWFK is an expensive driver and well worth it. I wouldn't use a different driver for mids unless I had a need to spike the mids, which I don't.

  Quote:


 Hey, it might have been addressed, but where are you getting the cables and what kind? I saw one post with Westone's cable, but wondered about alternatives. I'm really interested in a project like this, and perhaps scavenging cases and other parts to load with custom internals to tweak, and maybe to replace the cables on my e3 one day. 
 

There are several ways you can go with cables. Westone and Ultimate Ears both sell stock replacement cables on their websites. Westone gives you one version while Ultimate Ears has higher and lower versions. You can also make your own cables, using 28 UAW wire, though it's more work, doesn't look as nice and still requires you to come up with connectors.


----------



## MaoDi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Midnighttown* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_mao? fed or ed? whats their difference?_

 

The FED is just a better version of the ED series, it features ferrofluid technology which dampens peak frequencies, reduces damage from shock by 90%, and prevents the clogging of debris in the driver.


----------



## piotrus-g

Hi guys this is my first post on head-fi so hello, 

 Anyways, I've read this thread and thought that I may add my word.
 So basically I was wondering about making my own IEM's a year ago. So I've ordered some samples from Knowles and Star Micronics. I recieved a pair of TWFK-30017-000, a pair of WBHC-23910-000 and a lot (6 or 8) transducers from Star Micronics (generally the one used in ER6i) everything came to me shipped via ems overnight for free of course 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 I've also hit on an idea to put driver in comply foam, but I couldn't get a proper isolation.
 After few tries I gave up as I couldn't found a case for drivers, but now I found this thread. So I think I'll give a shot and try to make something with my drivers and post some photos.
 Actually I've thought about closing drivers in custom piece. I'll see what I can do with that. But first I'll try to put TWFK and WBHC together and maybe try adding a resistor as a "cross-over".
 I'll post results soon


----------



## MaoDi

I've been working on pairing and finding a good combo for drivers in the past months. I have finally decided on two designs, unfortunately 4 of the 5 drivers in both models can't be purchased as they are custom drivers from Shure, Jays and Ultimate Ears. The remaining driver is the CI22955 in both. I'm getting UM to put everything in Custom Shells. So i'll get back to everyone when they are finally done, which may be in about a month or so.


----------



## piotrus-g

So, It turned out that there is place in my city where I can make full custom shells for about $50. I'll check it since I want custom tips for my Audeo PFE. Maybe I'll give them my drivers to make customs for me


----------



## MaoDi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *piotrus-g* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So, It turned out that there is place in my city where I can make full custom shells for about $50. I'll check it since I want custom tips for my Audeo PFE. Maybe I'll give them my drivers to make customs for me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Just because you know how to make shells doesn't mean you know how to make the insides 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 better to leave the drivers to yourself or someone experienced. If you screw up, then you wouldn't blame anyone, and if you get a experienced person to do it. You know it'll be great =)


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just because you know how to make shells doesn't mean you know how to make the insides 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 =)_

 

Yes, that's true, but I doubt if I'll be able to do it right. "Practice makes perfect".
 Anyway as you say, if i screw I wouldn't blame anyone...


----------



## MaoDi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *piotrus-g* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes, that's true, but I doubt if I'll be able to do it right. "Practice makes perfect".
 Anyway as you say, if i screw I wouldn't blame anyone..._

 

You also get to do EXACTLY what you want to do...unfortunately i can't do my designs myself as i need crossovers and some professional equipment for tuning, which i don't have to check the monitors with or tune it with. So i sent my drivers to Unique Melody to have them put it together for me. Let's hope it doesn't take too long =)


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You also get to do EXACTLY what you want to do...unfortunately i can't do my designs myself as i need crossovers and some professional equipment for tuning, which i don't have to check the monitors with or tune it with. So i sent my drivers to Unique Melody to have them put it together for me. Let's hope it doesn't take too long =)_

 

I thought about simple "crossover" by using capacitors. So what kind of other professional equipment do you need for tuning? I'm going to tune them using my ears 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 but of course placing drivers in the same position and distance in each ear piece.
 I can also ask Null-Audio or other company to put the earphone thogether but as far as I thought we're making IEM DIY.


----------



## piotrus-g

So I made simple form (tube) from hot glue. Then I driled it and placed TWFK driver in it. I was just about to put a sillicone sleeve on when I heard a small crack, then I heard another and to my surprise I found TWFK board (this one with connectors) broken beacuse of force from soldered cables... Actually I can fix the driver but it'll probably take few hours, 'cause of really small size of this stuff.

 As I found out TWFK is open-back driver, so I dunno how it works with closed designs.

 I'm happy that I didn't pay for the drivers otherway I'd mad


----------



## Danny_B 89

Hey i have been on the forums a while and ventured into this diy thread, very interesting what your trying to achieve. 

 Anyway billavideo and Moa Di i admire your work and if you need any advise on wiring the drivers (Twfk) etc then just ask. Are you aware that you can optimize the twfk for mids / highs or a great all rounder just by the way you solder it. 

 Also which acoustic filters did you find best for dampening the midrange spikes of the CI driver I like the 680 (white) filter for twfk but only have access to green(1500ohm) filters for bass.


----------



## piotrus-g

Dan, as far as I know ACS made their customs from sillicone. So I've got a question: do you leave a space behind a driver, if it's open like twfk? or you just sink it in sillicone making them to work as a closed driver?
 Also I'd like to ask you about cross-over in twfk. It has on board cross-over, am I right? So what's the point of wiring twfk in the way that Westone does in their W3.


----------



## MaoDi

Westone does their own crossover because it allows them to control where the frequency split is, so instead of using the standard crossover on the TWFK they use they own. Also, i believe that not all TWFK has the crossover?

 I'm working on a Six driver custom monitor consisting of very similar drivers to the JH13. I have two designs going with Knowles drivers for one and Sonion drivers for the other. Trying to get my hands on the drivers right now.


----------



## Danny_B 89

Hey yeah all our moulds are made in silicone and the drivers are "closed off" when we backfill our monitors.

 As for the crossover i think their is alot of false advertising with crossovers and indeed drivers the "on board" crossover on the TWFK is just a link wire across the two negative terminals what you do with the positive terminals makes the difference as one side of the driver is mids other highs. 

 Westone's approach seems good which is similar to what we are working on at the moment (cant say too much) a true crossover consisting of capacitors of different values and resistors which as moadi said splits the frequency / shapes it to the right driver/s.


----------



## theory_87

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Dan@ACS* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey yeah all our moulds are made in silicone and the drivers are "closed off" when we backfill our monitors.

 As for the crossover i think their is alot of false advertising with crossovers and indeed drivers the "on board" crossover on the TWFK is just a link wire across the two negative terminals what you do with the positive terminals makes the difference as one side of the driver is mids other highs. 

 Westone's approach seems good which is similar to what we are working on at the moment (cant say too much) a true crossover consisting of capacitors of different values and resistors which as moadi said splits the frequency / shapes it to the right driver/s._

 

So meaning the crossover in the new iem acs is coming out with is different from the T1 which i'm using right now?


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## Danny_B 89

I'm afraid I can't say a lot right now. Just keep an eye out in the coming months for the launch of our new website which will have all the information on improvements and possibly any new products .

 Sorry I can't say anymore


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## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Dan@ACS* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_As for the crossover i think their is alot of false advertising with crossovers and indeed drivers the "on board" crossover on the TWFK is just a link wire across the two negative terminals what you do with the positive terminals makes the difference as one side of the driver is mids other highs. _

 

So you say that TWFK doesn't have crossover. If i want to wire the driver properly I have to use at least capacitor as a crossover between positive connectors of TWFK?

 Have you ever tried to leave place behind TWFK? It should work as a bass-reflex so bass should be deeper and more textured


----------



## MaoDi

Why use the TWFK as a bass driver when you can place a better driver in place for the low frequencies?


----------



## Danny_B 89

Quote:


 So you say that TWFK doesn't have crossover. If i want to wire the driver properly I have to use at least capacitor as a crossover between positive connectors of TWFK? 
 

You can put a capacitor across the two positive ports but i wouldnt advise it you can either link them with wire so they are crossed. Or just wire to the mid or high positive port for the desired sound. Hope that makes sense 

 Moadi is right you wouldn't use it as bass driver in any application


----------



## MaoDi

I would only use one element of the TWFK as a Low Frequency driver if the size of the monitor were limited to only fitting a TWFK. Otherwise, i would use another driver for the low frequencies.


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Dan@ACS* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Moadi is right you wouldn't use it as bass driver in any application_

 

Thanks for clearing out 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 You don't recommend using TWFK for bass but I'm not saying I'm going to do that


----------



## MaoDi

NO actually...i forbid the use of the TWFK as a low freq. driver...=)


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## Bilavideo

I agree with the idea that one would not use the TWFK as a dedicated woofer. It's not a dedicated woofer. On the other hand, it's not a dedicated tweeter, either. It's marketed as a "dual" driver, allowing manufacturers to buy two drivers and sell "three." The TWFK is not a dedicated anything. But before anybody hurls their rocks, let's talk about what it really is: The TWFK is (a) a wide-range driver that has extremely sweet HF; (b) the world's smallest "dual" driver; and (c) an extremely high-quality driver, with impressively flat performance throughout much of the frequency range. Where it goes loopy is in the HF, which is where they all go loopy. Sources like Headroom even argue that drivers are designed to roll off at the high end because, in the narrow, low-dispersion environment of the ear canal, a little HF goes a long, long way. 

 If you're looking for enhanced, booming, accentuated bass, you would obviously not choose the TWFK, but so what? Because of its flat performance, you could add the TWFK to a high-output driver like the SR or the CI-22955 (filtered to suppress all the midrange and HF that overshadow their actual LF output) and get amazing bass. Use the red filter for solid, knock-me-on-my-butt bass, but do better than the UM3X. Filter the CI or SR ONLY. Don't put the filter into the same tube as the TWFK (doing so is why the UM3X uses only a white filter and has HF attenuation issues that bother some listeners). I love my UM3X but (1) it doesn't need a crossover (total nonsense) and (2) My redesigned UM3X sounds loads better because it doesn't filter the TWFK; it filters the CI-22955 which a much stronger filter than the white filter used by the UM3X.


----------



## MaoDi

Yes, no one would use the TWFK as a low driver unless its the only driver in the monitor, second basically all drivers a full-range, it's just some excel at performing in a certain frequency range. HF is where the TWFK lives.

 I actualy would keep the crossover on the UM3X less load on a driver means less distortion, and the better it performs at what it's suppose to. Keeping the crossover is a good thing,w hat they need though is a dual bore design with separate filters.


----------



## piotrus-g

I'm not looking for boomy or overwhelming bass, actually I prefer natural presentation with a texutre and body but not very forward sounding to the other freq.
 All I'm trying to say that TWFK might have good sounding bass but it would require a lot of work and numbers of tries and could give no effects. You are only looking at the graphs but remeber that the graph has been done in some other environment. I would try to bass-reflex TWKF to see what happen just for the science 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Of course looking at the graphs TWFK is not bass oriented driver. I believe that CI is much much better. But I doubt about SR - if you listened to pl-50 you'd know that it has better midrange then bass and bass is IMO worse then Audeo's

 According to your posts I'd try to build let say 3-way customs with tripple bore. In each bore place an acoustic resistor and wire the drivers with capacitors instead of crossover. It sould give a compromise between yours designs. So LF would be attenuated eighter by capacitor and let say red filter. The same for mids and highs using other acoustic filters of course.
 I think about that config: CI - lows, WBHC - mids - TWFK highs.

 [Edit]I came across mouser offer and found out that dampers costs about 80 Euro each. 80*6 = 480 euro for dampers only. I think my "compromise design" is not really perfect


----------



## Bilavideo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *piotrus-g* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_All I'm trying to say that TWFK might have good sounding bass but it would require a lot of work and numbers of tries and could give no effects. You are only looking at the graphs but remeber that the graph has been done in some other environment._

 

I respectfully disagree. I'm not just looking at graphs. I'm speaking from experience. If you wire up a TWFK by itself, and put it in an earplug that offers adequate sound isolation, you'll get very clean and dynamic bass out of it. You won't get headbanger bass, but that kind of bass comes from drivers and designs that accentuate the bass for effect. As for the graphs, KA's graphs are based on the use of a minimal, white, 680 ohm, filter.

  Quote:


 I would try to bass-reflex TWKF to see what happen just for the science. Of course looking at the graphs TWFK is not bass oriented driver. I believe that CI is much much better. But I doubt about SR - if you listened to pl-50 you'd know that it has better midrange then bass and bass is IMO worse then Audeo's 
 

Neither the CI nor the SR are really woofers. They're simply useful to convert as such because they're high-output drivers. They actually produce more midrange than bass. The midrange and HF are suppressed by way of mechanical filters. The UM3X gets decent bass by simply using a white filter (680 ohms). I prefer the browns and reds, but the more HF you screen out, the more compensation you have to make for it, so when I had the single filter screening both the CI and the TWFK, I would have to adjust the EQ on my iPod to the Treble Boost setting. A better way to do it, without having to make any EQ adjustment at all, is to simply bifurcate by using separate filters, a white one (at most) for the TWFK and a dark one (red, brown or green) for the CI.

  Quote:


 According to your posts I'd try to build let say 3-way customs with tripple bore. In each bore place an acoustic resistor and wire the drivers with capacitors instead of crossover. It sould give a compromise between yours designs. So LF would be attenuated eighter by capacitor and let say red filter. The same for mids and highs using other acoustic filters of course.
 I think about that config: CI - lows, WBHC - mids - TWFK highs.

 [Edit]I came across mouser offer and found out that dampers costs about 80 Euro each. 80*6 = 480 euro for dampers only. I think my "compromise design" is not really perfect  
 

Triples are not necessary. They're just a marketing scheme. Most loudspeaker designs today use a two-way crossover. What you're trying to do is present the best signature for your LF and the best signature for your HF. The midrange is so ample that it takes care of itself. I, personally, like my three-way design on my loudspeaker system, so I understand the attraction, but when you get to earphones, even a single-driver design can be quite good, provided it drives high enough and low enough to work.


----------



## Bilavideo

ONE MORE LITTLE POINT

 I hope I'm not coming across as a bully or a know-it-all, as this forum is open to all voices and opinions. I welcome anybody's experience on par with my own. That said, I want to say something about the idea that crossovers are sonically superior - even at the earphone level - because they "cut down on distortion."

 If we were talking about dedicated woofers and dedicated tweeters, I'd hail such a view. If we were talking about large amount of wattage, I'd double-hail it. But as these are wide-range drivers, designed to play high and low, I just don't buy it. What's more, because of the low wattage involved, I just don't see - or hear - what all the fuss is about. My UM3Xs do sound better than my single-driver Audeos, but the most obvious difference was in the HF. The TWFK simply extends higher than the single-driver Phonak PFEs. If you listen to the CIs and listen to the TWFKs separately, you'll hear surprisingly versatile sound out of both, but the TWFK will capture that HF sizzle noticeably better - with or without a crossover. The CI, however, has a noticeably higher output. Unfiltered, it sounds louder at the watts than the TWFK. If, on the other hand, you muffle the CI with a filter, the two balance out quite well. What's more, because a filter lets you mechanically target the HF, you can enhance LF, if that's what you're going for.

 But here's the kicker. Even if you argue that the TWFK sounds cleaner with the addition of a crossover (no such crossover is applied to the CI, even though it's supposed to limit itself to the lower range), you have to weigh that argument against the fact that micro-sized caps and resistors - especially the tantalums - have the worst reputation for sonic purity. The use of any cap or resistor adds distortion. There's now war around it. But the tantalums are the worst. Their virtue is their size, not their quality as audio components. If I have to choose between placing these components between me and my music AND using bifurcated filters of different gauges, you can guess which way I'm going to go.


----------



## MaoDi

I don't by your views on crossovers, not going to say you're wrong cause i understand where you are coming from. However, the point of a crossover is to limit the load and focus a driver on a part of the frequency. Yes, most balanced armature drivers like the TWFK and the CI are basically full range drivers that don't have problem reproducing a reasonable frequency range with a fair amount of performance. However, if we plug in a crossover it reduces what the driver has to do meaning it doens't have to worry as much. For example, we as humans can multi-task. Yes we can watch TV, do our work and talk to people at the same time, but if we limit ourselves to one thing then we're bond to d it better.

 Yes caps and resistors are the terror of audio reproduction, but if we plug in a electric crossover like Klipsch uses on their Custom 3, then it's not a problem at all. 

 I do agree that a high driver, mid driver and low driver should each receive their own filters to allow a significant improvement on the audio part, however i'm sure you yourself have noticed that a triple bore with triple filters is near impossible to fit into a universal earpiece with all the strain relief, crossover circuit board and so on.


----------



## Clutz

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't by your views on crossovers, not going to say you're wrong cause i understand where you are coming from. However, the point of a crossover is to limit the load and focus a driver on a part of the frequency. Yes, most balanced armature drivers like the TWFK and the CI are basically full range drivers that don't have problem reproducing a reasonable frequency range with a fair amount of performance. However, if we plug in a crossover it reduces what the driver has to do meaning it doens't have to worry as much. For example, we as humans can multi-task. Yes we can watch TV, do our work and talk to people at the same time, but if we limit ourselves to one thing then we're bond to d it better._

 

Your analogy between humans multi-tasking and balanced armatures multitasking may not be fair. It may be true that full range drivers work better when they are tuned to working in a specific frequency range through the use of crossovers, but it isn't necessarily true a full range driver will do a better job if the range of frequencies it's given to handle is limited. 

 On the other hand, while the use of crossovers can limit certain frequency ranges to particular drivers, cross overs do introduce other problems- notably- phase distortion. 

 In fact, many DIY speaker makers prefer using single full range drivers to a multi-driver set of specifically because of the problems that are introduced using crossovers.


----------



## MaoDi

It may be true, but through my personal experience and tests that i have done on armature drivers. That may not be the case. I have found that the CI and ED drivers perform at least a margin better when limited to a specific frequency. They offered a faster transient in sound reproduction. Word syllables and drum fills were more clear, and distinct compared to no crossover as the armature/diaphragm doesn't have to recover from another frequency tone. But hey, that doesn't mean that the drivers aren't nice as full-range drivers themselves,

 Yes there can be phase distortion in a crossover circuitry when the filters phasing is off. Which can be if the crossover circuitry isn't tuned properly, or made properly. The bigger problem with crossovers i find is that there can be "blank" spots in the frequencies, as the split isn't exact. Meaning there's a certain frequency range that the drivers inline don't reproduce. JH Audio themselves have covered this problem but simply having one driver playing the whole frequency rather than just a specific frequency. This is also what i have done with the two upcoming monitors that i have designed.


----------



## Bilavideo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It may be true, but through my personal experience and tests that i have done on armature drivers. That may not be the case. I have found that the CI and ED drivers perform at least a margin better when limited to a specific frequency. They offered a faster transient in sound reproduction. Word syllables and drum fills were more clear, and distinct compared to no crossover as the armature/diaphragm doesn't have to recover from another frequency tone. But hey, that doesn't mean that the drivers aren't nice as full-range drivers themselves,_

 

If that is what you hear, all power to you. It's not what I hear. Are you hearing things (the placebo effect) or am I simply missing something? Who can say? I've become more skeptical of audio claims because this endeavor is full of hustlers and posers. In-between, honest seekers like you and I have to rely on what we know, rather than what we're told.

  Quote:


 Yes there can be phase distortion in a crossover circuitry when the filters phasing is off. Which can be if the crossover circuitry isn't tuned properly, or made properly. The bigger problem with crossovers i find is that there can be "blank" spots in the frequencies, as the split isn't exact. Meaning there's a certain frequency range that the drivers inline don't reproduce. JH Audio themselves have covered this problem but simply having one driver playing the whole frequency rather than just a specific frequency. This is also what i have done with the two upcoming monitors that i have designed. 
 

I again must express a healthy skepticism at the prospect of "tuning" a crossover that amounts to the tiniest spec of nothing - a simple cap wired up to a wide-range driver being marketed as a tweeter. I don't see much evidence of "tuning," just good salesmanship. As for those "blank spots," I think it's about as much of a problem as "phase," which is to say it's not really much of a problem at all. The "crossovers" being "designed" are barely first-order crossovers, with the gentlest of slopes. It's not like we're talking about fourth-order crossovers with precipice-like cut-offs. Neither phase nor "blank spots" play much of a role. If anything, the problems you're going to encounter are the uneven spikes that need to be attenuated. Alas, your chances of getting a notch filter into a plastic gumball are not spectacular.

 If you can design a first-class crossover that does everything a crossover should, my hat is off to you. If it makes an actual difference, you can have my socks as well.


----------



## MaoDi

Well, if it's the placebo effect, then i wouldn't be using it in my design now would ? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 But yes i do understand, most people on here just go with the crowd. "The SF5 has a two-way crossover" no it doesn't, it has a simple resistor hooked up one of the drivers. 

 Well there is "tuning" to crossovers, as the combination of capacitors or inductors could change how the crossover acts and "performs". There are also active crossovers like the one in the Klipsch custom 3 which collects the signal and redistributes it, which i would consider a real crossover. Can't confirm which other earphones/monitors out there use this technology, but this is what i am hoping to put in my design if they can someone fit it in there with all the drivers. 

 But i do agree with you, the massive amount of advertising and sales talk really doesn't affect the community, the simple "more drivers the better" is an example.


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I do agree that a high driver, mid driver and low driver should each receive their own filters to allow a significant improvement on the audio part, however i'm sure you yourself have noticed that a triple bore with triple filters is near impossible to fit into a universal earpiece with all the strain relief, crossover circuit board and so on._

 

I saw 4way design with 4 drivers and 4 bore. It was made almost 2 years ago by one polish IEM builder who worked for ACS. I tried to find a photo of this but I didn't. So I don't think that tripple bore is impossible to built unless you have really small ear canal.

 Anyway discusion about crossovers in IEM is always the same.
 But I like the idea of one full range driver and some others wired with crossover/capacitors actually this sould sound good 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I've studied some charts from KA and decided to change CI22955 to ED23147. CI has too high output to pair it with WBHC. ED has way smoother Freq resp. and very well extended bass. The drivers will cover followed freqencies - ED to 1.5kHZ/or whole fq, WBHC from 1.5kHZ to 4kHZ and TWFK from 4kHZ to end. Dunno if I it's possible to calculate it so precisely.

 [EDIT] I found an old message from colsanmicro uk distributor of sonion with pricing of dampers... 0,35ponud/each

 Audiotronics.it provide wide offer of resistors, capacitors and sillicone sleeves for drivers


----------



## Bilavideo

When we speak of "tuning" the crossover, are we talking about setting the crossover frequency? I can honestly say that much of the complaining about boomy bass is a result of bass boost attempts that failed to discriminate between different registers of bass. As it takes more juice to produce that throbbing low bass, which adds critical presence, I see nothing wrong with giving it a nudge. Far too frequently, the "bass is bass" crowd wants to tweak all bass - usually succeeding in accentuating the mid- and upper-bass, which needs very little help. The closer the bass gets to the midrange, the greater ease with which it muddies up the overall signature and collapses the sensation of soundstage. 

 I noticed this with my home theater. When I would innocently increase the "bass" by clicking up the bass control, I'd end up with an unpleasant and overly warm boominess, even with high-quality 15" woofers and a pair of 15" high-fidelity subwoofers. After several passes at the problem, I realized that the problem lay in the "bass is bass" assumption designed into that stupid bass knob on my receiver. The majority of "bass boost" systems are based (no pun intended) on the assumption that "bass is bass." 

 Most equipment is neither calibrated nor designed to produce anything close to a flat response, nor is the acoustics of the listening area an equal-opportunity environment for different frequencies. Equalization occurs because life isn't fair, not even in your living room or your ear canal. But equalization needs to be done with intelligence. 

 Even in the land of the purists, where "equalizers" are generally spurned (and not without good reason), the design itself (the choice of drivers, the slope and cut-off of the crossover, the use of L-Pads, speaker placement and damping (both in the cabinet and around the room) is an attempt to reduce distortion.

 For my money, low bass is harder to produce and hear than its mid- and upper-bass cousins. It deserves a little tweak to compensate. But the higher the frequency of bass, the less I want it taking over. My ideal "equalizer smile" is more of a fix than a fetish. It hands a candy bar to the Tortoise and some Ritalin to the Hare. Not surprisingly, I got much "better" bass when I scaled back the midbass by adding more coil to my woofers and dialing back the frequency response on my subwoofer amp. 

 If this is what is meant when we speak of "tuning" the crossover, I'm with you. I'm not throwing rocks nor do I mean to cast aspersions upon anybody's design. It is my hope that when we get the kinks worked out in our various production processes that we'll be able to listen to each other's designs at work. Ironically - between work and the coaching of various middle-school teams - my biggest headache is not electronic but plastic. 
 (How stupid is that?)

 When we get to where we're going, I hope we'll be able to say, "Check this out."


----------



## MaoDi

=) Sounds good to me


----------



## MaoDi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *piotrus-g* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I saw 4way design with 4 drivers and 4 bore. It was made almost 2 years ago by one polish IEM builder who worked for ACS. I tried to find a photo of this but I didn't. So I don't think that tripple bore is impossible to built unless you have really small ear canal.

 Anyway discusion about crossovers in IEM is always the same.
 But I like the idea of one full range driver and some others wired with crossover/capacitors actually this sould sound good 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I've studied some charts from KA and decided to change CI22955 to ED23147. CI has too high output to pair it with WBHC. ED has way smoother Freq resp. and very well extended bass. The drivers will cover followed freqencies - ED to 1.5kHZ/or whole fq, WBHC from 1.5kHZ to 4kHZ and TWFK from 4kHZ to end. Dunno if I it's possible to calculate it so precisely._

 

4 Driver isn't a problem, but 4 filters and 4 bores is a problem for universals period. It might be possible for customs, but it's gonna be crowded. Four tubes that need to extend to the canal tip is hard unless the soundtubes are extremely narrow.

 I am actually considering the EJ60005 as a mid-range driver myself. The ED29689 is also a very nice choice as a single driver mid.


----------



## piotrus-g

MaoDi do you have any freq graph for EJ60005? I coludn't find any.
 ED29689 is actually great choice for mid IMO
 Please take a look on DTEC driver it fq response remind me of CI22955, so maybe it's worth consideration to put CI -low DTEC-mids and TWFK-highs.
 Speaking about CI Newark has great promo price for CI only $6/one KNOWLES ACOUSTICS|CI22955|Instrument Receiver | Newark.com


----------



## Duce

Interesting, always a fan of IEMs, but now I'm getting into headphones.

 But still, wow, I'd love to make my own!


----------



## MaoDi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *piotrus-g* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_MaoDi do you have any freq graph for EJ60005? I coludn't find any.
 ED29689 is actually great choice for mid IMO
 Please take a look on DTEC driver it fq response remind me of CI22955, so maybe it's worth consideration to put CI -low DTEC-mids and TWFK-highs.
 Speaking about CI Newark has great promo price for CI only $6/one KNOWLES ACOUSTICS|CI22955|Instrument Receiver | Newark.com_

 

According to Knowles, they said that it would be similar to the 23018, but with a more rounded 3K. The DTEC is similar to the CI, that is why i am using the DTEC as my low driver in design.


----------



## MaoDi

i would soo buy a million if i have the money for $6 a CI...just because they are so friendly to use.


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ The DTEC is similar to the CI, that is why i am using the DTEC as my low driver in design._

 

DTEC on lows? I don't think this is a good idea. While Dtec has the same bass reponse as a CI. Also I don't like the midbass (800-900Hz) hump eighter in CI or DTEC. That's why I'm thinking about ED23147 its bass response remind me of UE10


----------



## MaoDi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *piotrus-g* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_DTEC on lows? I don't think this is a good idea. While Dtec has the same bass reponse as a CI. Also I don't like the midbass (800-900Hz) hump eighter in CI or DTEC. That's why I'm thinking about ED23147 its bass response remind me of UE10_

 

I have chosen and tested the DTEC for using with lows as it's rather flat throughout the low frequency, with a constant output. I've had very good results with the DTEC, but i am testing other drivers. Remember, DTEC is also what the Low drivers of the JH13 are built upon, and in the Se530.


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ Remember, DTEC is also what the Low drivers of the JH13 are built upon, and in the Se530._

 

Are you sure about this? I thought that both use custom built drivers
 I also reconcidered mid-driver WBHC has about 140 Ohm @1kHz, so I won't be able to drive it properly.
 My thoughts are going around ED + TWFK or DTEC + CI + TWFK(optional)
 But I think that the second design will be boomy, colorized and not in the way I'd like them to be.
 Actually I'm convincing myself to 2 drivers - 3 way design.


----------



## MaoDi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *piotrus-g* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Are you sure about this? I thought that both use custom built drivers
 I also reconcidered mid-driver WBHC has about 140 Ohm @1kHz, so I won't be able to drive it properly.
 My thoughts are going around ED + TWFK or DTEC + CI + TWFK(optional)
 But I think that the second design will be boomy, colorized and not in the way I'd like them to be.
 Actually I'm convincing myself to 2 drivers - 3 way design._

 

They are custom drivers inside the JH13, but the housing, parts are all of the DTEC (unless i've got the mid and lows drivers switched around), just the tuning is customized to JH Audio's need for the JH13. I found the DTEC performs rather well in the lows, but i will definitely consider them for use in the lows. Will see if anything else works better. The ED23147 along with the CI22955 are excellent choices for low drivers also, now if the ED23147 topped out with 2-3 decibels more, with a slightly rounder curve on the low end they will without a doubt be the low drivers for my design. I am considering them though as that little bit i'm sure i can fix up. 

 I'm trying a 6 driver, 3-way design. Concluded to use the TWFK as the dual highs, still consider what drivers to use as the lows DTEC/Dual CI (Big problem here...unless you have the ears of a rabbit)/ Dual ED23147, and mids are DTEC/Dual ED29689


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm trying a 6 driver, 3-way design. Concluded to use the TWFK as the dual highs, still consider what drivers to use as the lows DTEC/Dual CI (Big problem here...unless you have the ears of a rabbit)/ Dual ED23147, and mids are DTEC/Dual ED29689_

 

that should sound nice 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 The bigger driver the bigger problem with fitting. IEM are always made so they are flat from oudside when wearing. But I think that it might be possible to extend space by making them shapped round a bit. But this aren't going to look nice unless you have long hairs or don't mind


----------



## piotrus-g

Ok, I did a very quick graph comparision between some of drivers we're talking about. I hope that you'd be able to read the values of dB I was too lazy to correct it well.
 Anyway charts need a bit of explenation.
 The first one is CI22955(gray) vs DTEC (black) CI has an average impedance of 68 Ohm while DTEC has 31.5 @500Hz. As you can see CI still remains louder with less linear bass response. What's the conclusion: CI is better as bass driver if you want colorized, more puchy bass (200-1000Hz) DTEC will probably sound more accurate and natural, with less fun. DTEC will be also easier to drive.
 The second graph is DTEC(black) vs TWFK(gray). Actually the result surprised me. Drivers has almost the same impedance of 0,5kHz (31.5 vs 31 Ohm). It's obvious that DTEC has way better bass response and mid range is a bit wavy while TWFK stays linear but almost 20dB lower. At 6kHz will be the best place for cross over in DTEC-TWFK design. To my surprise looking at the graph I see that DTEC will be probably better on highs than TWFK...
 The third one is ED23147 (blue) vs ED29689(black). ED23147 has higher impednace (87 Ohm @1kHz) while the second has only 10.2 Ohm @1kHz.
 ED29689 remains louder on midbas, mids and highs and has better highs extention, but ED23147 has 10dB louder bass still having it linear with two picks on 200 and 500Hz.
 ED23147 would be probably great in design with TWFK crossed on 3kHz. That should be very accurate and natural sounding design.
 ED29689 would work great as a mid driver for ED-DTEC construction, crossed at 1.8kHz but IMHO addtional HF driver will be needed.

 Thanks!


----------



## MaoDi

Like your explanation, easy for people to understand =) 

 I like the ED23147 as a low driver if space is limited, for example in a universal model. But also, like you said it would offer a rather natural sounding design, but i would think a DTEC as a low driver with the ED29689 as the mid, and a TWFK as the high would be a great choice. Now, that seems rather nice to me, so i might plug in dual ED29689's as mids since i honestly just low them for it. =)


----------



## MaoDi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *piotrus-g* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_that should sound nice 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 The bigger driver the bigger problem with fitting. IEM are always made so they are flat from oudside when wearing. But I think that it might be possible to extend space by making them shapped round a bit. But this aren't going to look nice unless you have long hairs or don't mind 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Yes, i would love Duals, but hey th space of dual CI's could git Dual DTEC, how isn't that crazy? four LF drivers? =D hahahaha. I have thought, and suggested the sounded faceplate to Starkey for making my PM800S cause apparently that had some "trouble" fitting the two LF drivers in (don't know how they could struggle, they are both smaller than the CI and the high driver is a FK from Knowles. JH Audio fit two CI size drivers, and ED size driver in without trouble and lots of room to spare. It doesn't work though as the faceplate is made on flat piece of glass, so it would be impossible to make the faceplate domed.


----------



## Bilavideo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *piotrus-g* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ok, I did a very quick graph comparision between some of drivers we're talking about. I hope that you'd be able to read the values of dB I was too lazy to correct it well.
 Anyway charts need a bit of explenation.
 The first one is CI22955(gray) vs DTEC (black) CI has an average impedance of 68 Ohm while DTEC has 31.5 @500Hz. As you can see CI still remains louder with less linear bass response. What's the conclusion: CI is better as bass driver if you want colorized, more puchy bass (200-1000Hz) DTEC will probably sound more accurate and natural, with less fun. DTEC will be also easier to drive.
 The second graph is DTEC(black) vs TWFK(gray). Actually the result surprised me. Drivers has almost the same impedance of 0,5kHz (31.5 vs 31 Ohm). It's obvious that DTEC has way better bass response and mid range is a bit wavy while TWFK stays linear but almost 20dB lower. At 6kHz will be the best place for cross over in DTEC-TWFK design. To my surprise looking at the graph I see that DTEC will be probably better on highs than TWFK...
 The third one is ED23147 (blue) vs ED29689(black). ED23147 has higher impednace (87 Ohm @1kHz) while the second has only 10.2 Ohm @1kHz.
 ED29689 remains louder on midbas, mids and highs and has better highs extention, but ED23147 has 10dB louder bass still having it linear with two picks on 200 and 500Hz.
 ED23147 would be probably great in design with TWFK crossed on 3kHz. That should be very accurate and natural sounding design.
 ED29689 would work great as a mid driver for ED-DTEC construction, crossed at 1.8kHz but IMHO addtional HF driver will be needed.

 Thanks!_

 

Interesting thoughts.


----------



## MaoDi

I should have all my drivers my December including the ED23147


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I should have all my drivers my December including the ED23147_

 

I'm going to buy 4x CI but I need to hurry.


----------



## MaoDi

2X DTEC30008 ($52)= $104
 4X ED23147 ($27) = $108
 2X TWFK30017 ($61)= $122

 mmm Delicious...


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_mmm Delicious..._

 

I wouldn't say so 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 $334 +shipping+tax?
 today's shopping:
 4XCI22955 $24


----------



## MaoDi

Haha, you mind helping me buy two pairs of CIs? They don't ship to canada =( I'll trade you a pair of M11s


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Haha, you mind helping me buy two pairs of CIs? They don't ship to canada =( I'll trade you a pair of M11s 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Haha I'll consider this since I don't need 4 but only 2 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm not from States eighter 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 friend of mine bought me these on my request. I'll have my CI's probably on the beggning of Dec.
 Btw. what are M11?


----------



## MaoDi

Oh darn....hmmm i'll see if i can get it to work. Thanks though, i'll ask you if i really need help =)


----------



## piotrus-g

I got quotation from Colsan LTD (Sonion distributor) 
 Dampers:
 serial number price$
 9910-3013392 0.85
 9910-3015657 0.85
 9910-3015351 0.85
 9910-3015658 0.85

 Balanced armatures:
 serial number price$
 3340-3014233 16.53
 3370-3013601 16.53
 31A007 13.17

 Cables:
 COLS1252BK (Y-cables – Bare ends) 6.19
 COLS010-1001 (Y-cables – 2 pin ends) 18.12

 Each price is for one piece. So prices are very reasonable. Delivery time is 4-6weeks


----------



## MaoDi

Sonion offered me free drivers, but i decided to go with Knowles. Was going to go with the 3300, 3700 and 4400. Now going with DTEC, Custom EJ, and TWFK


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sonion offered me free drivers, but i decided to go with Knowles. Was going to go with the 3300, 3700 and 4400. Now going with DTEC, Custom EJ, and TWFK_

 

Free sonion drivers that sounds good 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Custom EJ? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 did knowles make it for you? Overall your design are going to sound hell good.


----------



## MaoDi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *piotrus-g* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Free sonion drivers that sounds good 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Custom EJ? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 did knowles make it for you? Overall our design are going to sound hell good._

 

Not completely custom, i told them to put together two ED's that they don't usually do to make the EJ. Yes, our designs are going to KILL =D


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Not completely custom, i told them to put together two ED's that they don't usually do to make the EJ._

 

How much dose it cost?


----------



## MaoDi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *piotrus-g* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How much dose it cost? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

There's allllways things in life that are better than a penny


----------



## piotrus-g

Now I'm looking for a company which will help me to put drivers and staff together. I've decided that I'm not going to make it by my own, because there's too much to screw up. As I said there's place in my city where I can make sells for 50bucks but they have no experience in such constructions. This is probably the cheapest way, though. I thought about null audio but saddly they didn't reply to my messages.

 Whitout having place to make them there's no use for my farther research, but I won't give up so easily 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 MaoDi when will you have your customs?


----------



## MaoDi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *piotrus-g* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Now I'm looking for a company which will help me to put drivers and staff together. I've decided that I'm not going to make it by my own, because there's too much to screw up. As I said there's place in my city where I can make sells for 50bucks but they have no experience in such constructions. This is probably the cheapest way, though. I thought about null audio but saddly they didn't reply to my messages.

 Whitout having place to make them there's no use for my farther research, but I won't give up so easily 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 MaoDi when will you have your customs?_

 

I haven't received the drivers for the6 driver custom yet, but my two 5 driver customs should be here by late December. 

 Why not get Unique Melody to put it together for you?


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why not get Unique Melody to put it together for you?_

 

They are from china, right? How much they want for making customs? How long it take to make customs with them?


----------



## MaoDi

They are most likely going to charge you $90 to have it put together for you. Typically since they have to do some adjustments, the custom making will take a bit longer i'm guessing 3 weeks or so. You will also have to pay for shipping back so your tota is most likely going to come to $130 ish.


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_They are most likely going to charge you $90 to have it put together for you. Typically since they have to do some adjustments, the custom making will take a bit longer i'm guessing 3 weeks or so. You will also have to pay for shipping back so your tota is most likely going to come to $130 ish._

 

$130 is reasonable price. I sent them a message, will see what they can do. I wonder if i have to calculate all crossovers, or they will care about everything, so I'll have to send them drivers only

 At first I'll probably make a CI-TWFK customs silimar to Bilavideo's since I'll have CI soon


----------



## MaoDi

They can figure out the crossover for you =)


----------



## AzN+LogiK

I also just subscribed. I have an engineering background so it's always fun to learn new stuff like this. Theory sounds good so far, application is always the hard part. I really hope you guys get the details that you want in the final product (sound signature, sound stage, etc)!


----------



## AzN+LogiK

oh, btw MaoDi, do you think a company like Fisher will do the construction and shelling since they are closer and in Florida?


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *AzN+LogiK* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I really hope you guys get the details that you want in the final product (sound signature, sound stage, etc)!_

 

Thanks! If you have any additional thoughts to designs please share 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Anyway I don't think I'm going to achive "my" sound signature with CI-TWFK but hope to with DTEC-ED-TWFK or ED-TWFK


----------



## AzN+LogiK

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *piotrus-g* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks! If you have any additional thoughts to designs please share 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Anyway I don't think I'm going to achive "my" sound signature with CI-TWFK but hope to with DTEC-ED-TWFK or ED-TWFK_

 

It's been 2 years since my last signals and systems class (as i do more laser physics and fiber optics, not audio) but the concept is the same, so i basically know theory but have yet to have time to research this stuff, but when i do get time, i'd like to also pitch in ideas after i finish reading this whole thread [:

 on another note, before i learned how cheap it is to actually reshell universal IEMs (i have the ADDIEMs because of their awesome price and the quality that comes with it), i got custom mold tips made by averysound and the initial tips added like 1cm of tubing before the ear canal (and looked ridiculous), and the sound was REALLY muddy, so i have just sent them back to be remade along with my IEMs to try to eliminate that extra distance from the tip of the bare IEM to the ear canal. that's a good thing to consider for these DIYs, the placement of the drivers and what it goes through before hitting your ears. my original molds made it sound like i was listening from an end of a tunnel!!!


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *AzN+LogiK* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_that's a good thing to consider for these DIYs, the placement of the drivers and what it goes through before hitting your ears. my original molds made it sound like i was listening from an end of a tunnel!!!_

 

That's obvious:
 "The length of the earphone exit tube affects the location and amplitude of high frequency peaks. An increase in length moves the 2nd peak to the left and increases the amplitude. A decrease in length moves the 2nd peak to the right and reduces the amplitude."
 Diameter of the sound tube is also important!
 Somehow the material of tip also affect on sound ie. comply vs. flanges
 Though I haven't heard about dull/bad sounding customs


----------



## MaoDi

good news guys. Having some good impression of Sonion drivers, so i think i'm going to go with a Sonion driver and a Knowles Driver config. The only thing holding my Sonion driver config back is the size of the drivers. The best low frequency driver they have, and i've confirmed it with Sonion would be the 2015. Which is about a mm shorter, and narrower than the CI. These drivers go all the way down to 10Hz flat from 200Hz, so these don't just plummet and sort of make little noises are 10Hz, but rather REALLY present the lows. They said the output of the 2015 would be relative to equaling 2 x 3300 (which is 4 armatures), so these are powerful drivers. For tweeters, i am thinking teh 2389 from Sonion, they are about the size of the ED and go flat to 18kHz. Just trying to figure out the mid-range/full-range to throw in there.


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_good news guys. Having some good impression of Sonion drivers, so i think i'm going to go with a Sonion driver and a Knowles Driver config. The only thing holding my Sonion driver config back is the size of the drivers. The best low frequency driver they have, and i've confirmed it with Sonion would be the 2015. Which is about a mm shorter, and narrower than the CI. These drivers go all the way down to 10Hz flat from 200Hz, so these don't just plummet and sort of make little noises are 10Hz, but rather REALLY present the lows. They said the output of the 2015 would be relative to equaling 2 x 3300 (which is 4 armatures), so these are powerful drivers. For tweeters, i am thinking teh 2389 from Sonion, they are about the size of the ED and go flat to 18kHz. Just trying to figure out the mid-range/full-range to throw in there._

 

Hmm interesting, I dont know where did you get these information but 2015 is not going "straight" from 10-200Hz. These are powerful drivers, but 37A007 is much more interesting as a low driver and this is the driver that i'm going to go with if making a design with Sonion. For tweeter choose something with modified diaphragm - they cut holes in plate to cut on bass. I also dont see that 2389 is going "flat" to 18kHz there's rather big valley before 7kHz... The metter is also low impedance of 2389 - 4 Ohms vs. 20 Ohms of 2015

 BTW. MaoDi please reply to my PM, thanks!


----------



## MaoDi

getting this information straight from a receiver specialist from Sonion. The graphs on Sonions website mean nothing they say as it'not tested the way they would for IEM making. 4 ohm and 20 ohm isn't a problem at all. There are designs with impedance levels that vary massively. 

 Didn't get a PM, send it again.


----------



## MaoDi

Also, the output of the 2015 is far greater than both the 3300 and the 3700. Sonion says the output of Dual 2015's would be equal to about Three 3300 (9 armatures). So these are powerful drivers.


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Didn't get a PM, send it again._

 

Ok so PM me please contact to person from UM who is responsible for your order/design. I sent them a massage to um@uniquemelody.org but they haven't reply yet (after 4 days) so I think they didn't recieve it.
  Quote:


 The graphs on Sonions website mean nothing they say as it'not tested the way they would for IEM making. 
 

 So why they put it there?


----------



## MaoDi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *piotrus-g* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ok so PM me please contact to person from UM who is responsible for your order/design. I sent them a massage to um@uniquemelody.org but they haven't reply yet (after 4 days) so I think they didn't recieve it.
 So why they put it there?_

 

Sure no problem.

 The graphs on the site are data tested and based on Hearing aid customers, and the graphs are compiled of hearing aid couplers and by hearing aid standards. There is some relevance, but anything under 500Hz, and anything over 8kHz is useless on the graph. They don't have any graphs or data that are for the drivers if used for the audio application, they only have that for custom made drivers.


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sure no problem.

 The graphs on the site are data tested and based on Hearing aid customers, and the graphs are compiled of hearing aid couplers and by hearing aid standards. There is some relevance, but anything under 500Hz, and anything over 8kHz is useless on the graph. They don't have any graphs or data that are for the drivers if used for the audio application, they only have that for custom made drivers._

 

I see. The same thing is with Knowles but I saw Knowles did some extended graphs related to audio application. I'm really curious about Sonion custom drivers 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 they can even mach impedance for you 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Anyway I'm also confused because if it actually turns out that looking at the graphs can't give me any tips.


----------



## MaoDi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *piotrus-g* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I see. The same thing is with Knowles but I saw Knowles did some extended graphs related to audio application. I'm really curious about Sonion custom drivers 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 they can even mach impedance for you 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Anyway I'm also confused because if it actually turns out that looking at the graphs can't give me any tips._

 

Yea, Sonion can literally do any driver for you. But it costs a lot to make a small batch. To me, Knowles drivers look a lot better, and seem to be a lot easier to use. I also think low drivers are better to be Sonion drivers as so far that i've come across, Sonion low drivers sound deeper, with exception to the low driver used in the 10X3. (not sure, will have to confirm with Jerry which is the low driver the custom 60344 or the CI22955).

 The graphs only mean a little of what the driver actually sounds like, can't really conclude what they are good at.


----------



## Bilavideo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *piotrus-g* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I see. The same thing is with Knowles but I saw Knowles did some extended graphs related to audio application. I'm really curious about Sonion custom drivers 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 they can even mach impedance for you 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Anyway I'm also confused because if it actually turns out that looking at the graphs can't give me any tips._

 

There's nothing wrong with looking at graphs. The graphs are useful. You just have to keep a couple of things in mind.

 First, the graphs don't tell you everything. They measure output at different frequencies. You have to figure out what to make of the data they provide.

 Second, there's a parallax between what the graphs report and what the driver will sound like in somebody's ear. The graphs merely show how the driver tested. Actual hearing is somewhat different, so driver design is not as simple as consulting a handy-dandy graph.

 Third, you can't just eyeball the graph. Different drivers' graphs have different floors and ceilings. Visually, it may look like one driver has better extension than the other - that is, until you look carefully at the numbers being reported.

 Fourth, loudness isn't everything. Some drivers have a higher sensitivity or greater SPL. Put in less juice, get more sound. If that does it for you, bravo. Most of the time, however, you're going to be more concerned about balance. All drivers distort (with peaks and valleys) but what's the dynamic range of that distortion and where, in the spectrum does it fall? Bigger distortions create bigger headaches. By the same token, the closer to the center these distortions fall, the more noticeable they become. Personally, I'd take a driver with a lower SPL but with a flatter response over a driver that screams but does so with the harshness of a sailor on shore leave.

 Fifth, even with all of the above caveats, graphs are useful for getting a quick impression of driver differences. Look at the graphs for various drivers and you'll see some obvious differences. I like to look at the first peak. It tells me a lot with a little info. Many of the drivers have a first peak smack dab in the middle of the midrange, which is what you'd expect of a driver that was designed for use in a hearing aid. After all, the midrange is where most of the details are found, including human speech. As a species, we're more sensitive to the midrange, which is the last part of our hearing to go. You may even notice that virtually all music can be understood and enjoyed (even if not appreciated to the highest degree) off of a cheap radio. You don't get the full experience, but the fact that you get any experience at all is a tribute to the degree to which our ears are sensitive to the midrange. For me, it's important that the big peaks and valleys fall as far from the center as possible. Graphs show that.

 If you look at the average driver, its first peak is around 1 kHz. Better drivers will put it at around 2 kHz. The TWFK puts it at 3 kHz. The WBFK 30019 puts it at 4 kHz. For flat response, I'm a big fan of the TWFK. For the best HF performance, I'm leaning toward the WBFK 30019. It's leaner in the bass, but if you're looking for a "tweeter," you don't need bass.


----------



## MaoDi

Great points Bilavideo. Just to add on, graphs are useful when the graph is a representation of how the driver would react with the application you are using them for. However, on Sonion's website, all the graphs are based on Hearing Aid standards, meaning the lines of the graph aren't directly similar to how it would be with the testing pointing towards the pro audio application.

 Yes, the graphs do mean to an extent of how it would react with the pro audio application. But the main big differences are the 200Hz below and 8kHz and up as the chart is completely off for the drivers in these graphs. So testing the driver is the only, and most accurate way to know the results of the highs and lows of the driver.

 I myself like Bilavideo would choose the tone, and response of the driver over the output of the driver. Now if we had both then the driver would be perfect harmony 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Looking at the size of the 2389 from Sonion, it's far too big to be used as dual tweeters in my design (or for my ear). I'm thinking of going with either dual 2015 for lows, or dual 3300 for lows. Not sure what to do with the mid driver yet, and use the TWFK for highs. Yes this design might end up being eight drivers.


----------



## piotrus-g

You guys always cheer me up and make me want to build my very best custom iem's 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I found some of your tips really helpful so thanks Bilavideo.
 I also prefer lower SPL, that's why I'm not really sure about CI22955 but I want to give it a try.


----------



## MaoDi

i don't "prefer" low SPL, i just prefer low SPL that's balanced and flat over high SPL that's screamy. Would take High SPL over Low SPL any day if the curves and response were the same.


----------



## piotrus-g

All right, I recieved CI today - these are huge! I didn't expect that 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Mao if you want to trade 2xCI for 1xTWFK for example we can figure out something 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 BTW. still haven't got any reply eighter form UM, Null-Audio or ACS 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and really don't know why


----------



## MaoDi

Got my TWFKs, DTECs, and EDs today. Just ordered 4 x 2015, 4 x 3300, 2 x 4400, 4 x 2389, and 4 x 2300 from Sonion. 

 The packing is fantastic from Knowles =) brand new, clean driver hehe


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Got my TWFKs, DTECs, and EDs today. Just ordered 4 x 2015, 4 x 3300, 2 x 4400, 4 x 2389, and 4 x 2300 from Sonion. 

 The packing is fantastic from Knowles =) brand new, clean driver hehe_

 

gratz. Tell me that the drivers from Sonion are samples...


----------



## piotrus-g

Here's photo of the drivers:
 bigest - no doubt - CI22955
 on the right - TWFK
 on front - WBHC
 on left Star Micronics PBB-04F-PS




 CI are really big drivers, there's probably no way to put two of them to one earpiece like you said MaoDi.


----------



## piotrus-g

I came across sonion drivers and make some notes. There're two designs which I'd like.
 For LF 28UA01 it has extended bass, 135dB and 25Ohms for HF 32A04i, 135dB 25Ohms - IMO this is gonna be the best tweeter ever. I would assume that it goes flat to 20kHz and over. I dunno what to add on MF.
 The second design would be LF 2091i - it's even biger than CI lol.. with amazing fq.r. I could probably use 17A003 as a mid driver and again 32A04i as HF.
 What do you think guys?


----------



## MaoDi

It's possible to fit two CI's in a monitor. My Mage's are Dual CI's. The CI is the biggest on the market today, even the 2000 series doesn't match its size. 

 The 2000 series is about 1 mm shorter than the CI.


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's possible to fit two CI's in a monitor. My Mage's are Dual CI's. The CI is the biggest on the market today, even the 2000 series doesn't match its size. 

 The 2000 series is about 1 mm shorter than the CI._

 

Yea, but I mean like 2xCI LF, plus some other drivers 2x MF and 2x HF.
 Actually your're wrong. 2091i is 0,1 mm longer 0,1mm wider and 0,04mm higher! So in sum up it's bigger


----------



## MaoDi

Well it actually won't be that hard. My Mages are have 2 x Ci and a TWFK. My ears are extremely small and if i were to assemble it, i would just move the crossover up a bit, and the low drivers. I could pop in a pair of ED's. So it's possible, but i myself can't do it and it just MAAAAAY struggle a bit with my ears since they're tiny. 

 Hmm always thought the CI was 9.7mm long, guess not. lol. 9.47.


----------



## piotrus-g

Besides I firmly think about conecting CI and TWFK without any capacitor all drivers would be connected parallel.


----------



## MaoDi

i've thought of that before, i've thought of connecting all six drivers in parallel and simply using filters to filter out the frequencies. Would be a lot easier and savers a lot of space in the monitor. But that means a harder job on selecting drivers.


----------



## piotrus-g

Such a designs would be very loud, but probably well balanced. Why do you think it will be harder to select drivers? This only means that each driver will sound its way and the overall sound of IEM would be somehow resultant.

 [Edit] I've just recieved bulletin from Sonion about IEM designs. I found it helpful and it confirms almost all drivers I chose 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Got no doubt I'll go with sonion drivers in my farther designs


----------



## MaoDi

It shouldn't be too loud, and hey there's always the volume control right? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I"m talking directly to the person responsible and been working with Jerry for the past 10 years. I'm sure he knows his stuff


----------



## MaoDi

It'll be harder to choose the drivers because now the drivers play their whole frequency. You don't want something that distorts, and screams at a frequency while playing another frequency now do you?


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It'll be harder to choose the drivers because now the drivers play their whole frequency. You don't want something that distorts, and screams at a frequency while playing another frequency now do you?_

 

No I don't. I rather stay away from every screamming and distorting driver.
 I talked to Sonion and they redirect me to audiotronics.it as they are Sonion's european distributor.


----------



## MaoDi

Ah i see. I also inquired about if the 2015 or the 2090i is more suitable for a low driver. The specialist said both would work, but the 2015 would be a better driver. So you might want to consider that =)


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ah i see. I also inquired about if the 2015 or the 2090i is more suitable for a low driver. The specialist said both would work, but the 2015 would be a better driver. So you might want to consider that =)_

 

What exactly makes it better?


----------



## MaoDi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *piotrus-g* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What exactly makes it better?_

 

According to Sonion, the 2015 offers a more accurate, and better deep frequency compared to the 2090i. That is why it is chosen as a low frequency driver by many audio companies using Sonion drivers. 

 Hey i'm sure Sonion knows what they are talking about =)


----------



## Bilavideo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *piotrus-g* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Here's photo of the drivers:
 bigest - no doubt - CI22955
 on the right - TWFK
 on front - WBHC
 on left Star Micronics PBB-04F-PS




 CI are really big drivers, there's probably no way to put two of them to one earpiece like you said MaoDi._

 

I tried putting two CI-22955s into the shell of a UM3X. They were too big. The shell on a UM3X is quite sleek. It contours to the two drivers it's designed for. The CI's are not too big to put together, just too big for that particular shell. There's also a criss-cross complication. As the sound outlet is at the front of the driver but to one side, you can put the two outlets next to each other, but only by flipping one of them, which means the wiring will be backwards. If you're wiring two CI's in parallel, you'll want to take care that you keep this criss-crossing in mind. If you're wiring in series, that's a different story. Either way, you need to be aware of how the criss-crossing affects polarity.


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_According to Sonion, the 2015 offers a more accurate, and better deep frequency compared to the 2090i. That is why it is chosen as a low frequency driver by many audio companies using Sonion drivers. 

 Hey i'm sure Sonion knows what they are talking about =)_

 

this argument appeals to me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I'm sure they do
 You say "many audio companies using Sonion drivers" I haven't heard of any lol


----------



## MaoDi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *piotrus-g* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_this argument appeals to me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I'm sure they do
 You say "many audio companies using Sonion drivers" I haven't heard of any lol_

 

Starkey, JH Audio, Unique Melody, Ultimate Ears....???


----------



## Bilavideo

I checked out Sonion's new website. Sonion has a vast array of drivers. I found the choices to be a bit overwhelming. For now, I think I'll stick with Knowles and find what works best on that side of the street. 

 In fact, my chief issue right now is not with finding decent drivers but with finding the best consumer-friendly solution for creating a workable shell. My aim is not to send everything off to a company in China, so that I can get it all assembled for a cut rate. It's to find a workable solution for the ordinary Joe who wants to build a great IEM from scratch. 

 In terms of the drivers and the wiring, that's easy enough. With some practice, even a klutz like me can solder drivers to a $40 replacement cable. The trick is to come up with an easy, user-friendly, way of creating a shell that will enable the ordinary Joes of this world to pop in the drivers and pop on an eartip for wondrous listening pleasure. My aim is not to connect with an industrialist in Asia, or create a fancy industrial process, but to devise a home solution, something a clever person could put together in less than an hour.


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Starkey, JH Audio, Unique Melody, Ultimate Ears....???_

 

I thought they all use Knowles and as I remember you even said that your mage are double CI's

 Bilavideo this was the most important assumption of this topic I think so keep going, 'cause right now I don't know if I'm not going to do it by myself since I didn't recieve any reply from companies


----------



## MaoDi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *piotrus-g* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I thought they all use Knowles and as I remember you even said that your mage are double CI's

 Bilavideo this was the most important assumption of this topic I think so keep going, 'cause right now I don't know if I'm not going to do it by myself since I didn't recieve any reply from companies_

 

Unique Melody uses both. They only use Knowles for the Mage though. Ultimate Ears use Sonion for the their whole SF5's, Triple Fi 10, and a combination of both for their custom line. JH Audio uses Sonion drivers for the Jh13's lows, not sure about the others though. Starkey only uses Sonion except for the high freq driver.

 I have been trying to think and see how to make the outer shell just at home, but i am planning to figure out the insides first.


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Unique Melody uses both. They only use Knowles for the Mage though. Ultimate Ears use Sonion for the their whole SF5's, Triple Fi 10, and a combination of both for their custom line. JH Audio uses Sonion drivers for the Jh13's lows, not sure about the others though. Starkey only uses Sonion except for the high freq driver.

 I have been trying to think and see how to make the outer shell just at home, but i am planning to figure out the insides first._

 

Thanks for explenation.

 Personally I think that the easiest way is to use sillicone (biomedical one). You can easily make holes in it and when the inside is done you just add sillicone to close it.


----------



## Bilavideo

I'm sticking with Knowles. KA is the oldest and most established carrier in the market. If Sonion is getting business, maybe it's a case of price substitution. I wouldn't know because I don't see a distributor. I don't even see a listing of their product's prices. With KA, I can get price quotes from Digikey, Mouser and Newark, none of which carry Sonion products.


----------



## MaoDi

Knowles is about 65 years old where Sonion is about 35. Price of drivers are relatively the same. Eric from Sonion was the previous Regional Manager for Knowles, but is now the Regional Manager for Sonion. He's a person that knows both companies products extremely well.


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bilavideo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm sticking with Knowles. KA is the oldest and most established carrier in the market. If Sonion is getting business, maybe it's a case of price substitution. I wouldn't know because I don't see a distributor. I don't even see a listing of their product's prices. With KA, I can get price quotes from Digikey, Mouser and Newark, none of which carry Sonion products._

 

The prices are:

 Family 33 *Euro 12,29 each.*
 Family 32 * Euro 8,21 each * 
 Family 2000 * Euro 8,40 each.*
 Family 2300 *Euro 10,61 each*

 Samples until two pcs. each, are free of charge.
 I believe that the cheapest BK driver costs $16 - in this case this is the difference

 [Edit] Oh, BTW UM replied! Seems that they will do this but they say  Quote:


 The cost adding one TWFK is USD260 
 







 so I dunno if it's price incudling sehlling cross-overs etc or driver only.


----------



## Bilavideo

I still don't see a reason to switch from Knowles.


----------



## tsn141

i am living in turkey how can i buy the sonion drivers 
 and also filters 
 which one is better sound ka's or sonions


----------



## MaoDi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bilavideo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I still don't see a reason to switch from Knowles._

 

price wise no, but some characteristic are only offered by Sonion


----------



## Bilavideo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_price wise no, but some characteristic are only offered by Sonion_

 

What characteristics do you have in mind?


----------



## MaoDi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bilavideo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What characteristics do you have in mind?_

 

I praise both companies for the quality of their drivers. In fact, i think Knowles makes the "look" of the drivers more professional, and clean compared to Sonion. Sonion's drivers look more rough and dull in appearance. 

 Characteristics i'm talking about are say dimensions, sound etc...both companies offer a wide variety of choice, and both have drivers which are unique to the company and has a very distinct characteristic. For example, like the driver mentioned earlier the 2090i from Sonion. Knowles doesn't offer a driver that is not custom that reaches 130dB in the lows.


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bilavideo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What characteristics do you have in mind?_

 

there's also a 23x75 driver which offers 11-12kHz @103dB only TWFK can probably mach to its output, but I doubt if at the same level. Aparentlly Sonions drivers are much biger then Knowles's. All 2000 series are as big as CI. there's no TWFK size-like driver
  Quote:


 i am living in turkey how can i buy the sonion drivers 
 

Just ask Sonion a question


----------



## MaoDi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *piotrus-g* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_there's also a 23x75 driver which offers 11-12kHz @103dB only TWFK can probably mach to its output, but I doubt if at the same level. Aparentlly Sonions drivers are much biger then Knowles's. All 2000 series are as big as CI. there's no TWFK size-like driver_

 

the 4400 from Sonion is smaller.


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_the 4400 from Sonion is smaller._

 

Pardon my mistake. How much they differ in sound? TWFK has probably better highs, am I right?


----------



## MaoDi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *piotrus-g* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Pardon my mistake. How much they differ in sound? TWFK has probably better highs, am I right?_

 

Well since the graphs on Sonion don't mean anything above 8 kHz in terms of monitor applications, it's hard to know. But according to Eric, like mentioned whose worked with both Knowles and Sonion, he claims both drivers sound very similar.


----------



## Bilavideo

Can you feel that? It's the revolution coming. We have two major MNCs making high-quality drivers. We have the wiring. If we want to employ crossovers, we have that down. Thrown on a workable shell and we're in business. People are lurking these discussions. The time of the Average Joe IEM is coming.


----------



## MaoDi

Definitely, the only thing that i'm struggling with the exact tuning of the drivers as i myself at MY house don't have the equipment to do so. The other is the acrylic shell.


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


 Can you feel that? It's the revolution coming. We have two major MNCs making high-quality drivers. We have the wiring. If we want to employ crossovers, we have that down. Thrown on a workable shell and we're in business. People are lurking these discussions. The time of the Average Joe IEM is coming. 
 

Well said.
 Now, I think the future is in the companies which would make Customs - I mean like full custom - customer tell you what kind of sound he/she wishes, how many drivers would like, bores, not only artworks or colours but whole sound signature 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 Another thing is that we should try to make it easy as possible to everyone could do this at home


----------



## MaoDi

Unique Melody already does that =), they do that for customers and you pay for whatever the costs are needed to make the customs.


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Unique Melody already does that =), they do that for customers and you pay for whatever the costs are needed to make the customs._

 

But hey, this is the only company that does it, and still offers line products like mage or so. I though about something like that:
 "Hi I'd like dual drivers warm sounding IEM's - OK no problem 200 bucks, please"


----------



## MaoDi

Haha, true. There needs to be more company like this, but has some sort of rubric to go along with.


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *piotrus-g* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_[Edit] Oh, BTW UM replied! Seems that they will do this but they say 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 so I dunno if it's price incudling sehlling cross-overs etc or driver only._

 

Fortunately $260 inculdes sells, cables cross-over and so one, but it's still more expensive compered to $130 for shelling as you said Mao


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Definitely, the only thing that i'm struggling with the exact tuning of the drivers as i myself at MY house don't have the equipment to do so. The other is the acrylic shell._

 

Well I think there's a way to jump it over. You can order from audiotronics sillicone sleeves (just like these from UE5Pro) for several driver. It allows you to adjust lenght of tube and to put dampers in it (I'm not 100% sure about dampers).
 Other thing is if you can't make up your mind what lenght of tube would like to use.
 You have to calculate cross-over (capacitor or resistors if needed) values or do it like this: "hmm.. let's add 0,82uF cap and see how it sounds 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




"


----------



## MaoDi

Yes but there's no way to tune and test them. The only way to test them would be our ears, and constantly taking apart a built monitor then rebuilding is quite a trouble


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes but there's no way to tune and test them. The only way to test them would be our ears, and constantly taking apart a built monitor then rebuilding is quite a trouble 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Yea but you have to look at the graphs and see how reciever reacts on tube lengthening. Then you have to assume some tube lenght and see if it's good. If you did this carfully you wouldn't have to rebuild monitor

 Or look at IEM you own and see that bass drivers are always further than HF drivers. Because lenght affects on picks and hf reponse while LF stays the same.


----------



## Bilavideo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *piotrus-g* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yea but you have to look at the graphs and see how reciever reacts on tube lengthening. Then you have to assume some tube lenght and see if it's good. If you did this carfully you wouldn't have to rebuild monitor

 Or look at IEM you own and see that bass drivers are always further than HF drivers. Because lenght affects on picks and hf reponse while LF stays the same._

 

You're right. Longer tubes lower the pitch, which is why "woofers" have the longer tubes.


----------



## piotrus-g

I wonder what impedance value would be the best... I consider 20-40 Ohms. Output should fit 110-130dB


----------



## Halftrack

Miscellaneous comment: This thread is amazing. I don't know what your current progress is, Bilavideo (reading post 200), but keep it up, however it's going


----------



## MaoDi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *piotrus-g* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yea but you have to look at the graphs and see how reciever reacts on tube lengthening. Then you have to assume some tube lenght and see if it's good. If you did this carfully you wouldn't have to rebuild monitor

 Or look at IEM you own and see that bass drivers are always further than HF drivers. Because lenght affects on picks and hf reponse while LF stays the same._

 

Oh i'm already aware of that. There's also the wires to use to hook up each driver. There are some wires that are better than the other. Tube length i'm not worried about. Its the tuning in that can take place in the wires is what i'm trying to figure out.


----------



## Bilavideo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Halftrack* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Miscellaneous comment: This thread is amazing. I don't know what your current progress is, Bilavideo (reading post 200), but keep it up, however it's going 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

Halftrack, thank you for the words of encouragement. Currently, I'm shopping my options in terms of shell construction. Everything else is ready.


----------



## Bilavideo

I've made a decision. I'm going with carbon fiber for the shells.


----------



## MaoDi

I've thought about Carbon Fiber before xD but how are we going to get those baked to our ears shape?? I would ADORE carbon fiber earphones.


----------



## tsn141

http://www.knowles.com/search/pdf/TB-06.pdf
 here is the some information about tubing


----------



## MaoDi

nice find!


----------



## tsn141

there are lots of technical bulletins inthe knowles website it is very helpful


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Oh i'm already aware of that. There's also the wires to use to hook up each driver. There are some wires that are better than the other. Tube length i'm not worried about. Its the tuning in that can take place in the wires is what i'm trying to figure out._

 

Wires are available on Colsan, there are bare cables and with 2pin connectors, they also got 2pin female connectors. Internal cables can be bought from audiotronics, these seem to be the same cables used in other IEM.

 If we're talking about wiring. I wonder how to connect each driver which should be parallel which in series, but all I know is that I want to achive some impedance and will pick such drivers which would give 20-40 Ohms


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bilavideo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've made a decision. I'm going with carbon fiber for the shells._

 

I don't really think this is a good idea... First of all it's gonna crack if you drop it. Fiber carbon is fragile. Secondly I don't think that fiber is safe for your ears.

 The thing is you can buy biomedical sillicone - the same ACS uses, and as I said before it'll be earsier to put drivers in it I think.


----------



## MaoDi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *piotrus-g* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't really think this is a good idea... First of all it's gonna crack if you drop it. Fiber carbon is fragile. Secondly I don't think that fiber is safe for your ears.

 The thing is you can buy biomedical sillicone - the same ACS uses, and as I said before it'll be earsier to put drivers in it I think._

 

Are you confusing carbon fiber with something? Because carbon fiber is one of the strongest man-made material available. It's used to make hundred thousand dollar cars, and is also extremely pretty 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Yes carbon fiber is weaker towards shock or compressed, but when baked to shape along with epoxy it's impact resistant is hard to match unless you're using something like...Zirconia?


----------



## Bilavideo

Here's the thing. I like the shiny elegance of acrylic but I don't want to buy a thousand-dollar injection machine or build a vacuum mold - and for what? A thin layer for each side? Carbon fiber is available in sheets. It can be cut to fit. You can carve a mold out of a bar of soap and then wrap it in carbon fiber, then cure it with epoxy resin (rather than polyester resin, which is known to be prone to spider cracks). Carbon fiber is expensive, but not in the quantities it would take to make earphone shells.

 If this works, it will not only solve my problems but present a workable model for others. I'm trying to make this a process any Joe Lunchbox can do at home, with minimal professional equipment.


----------



## MaoDi

Not to mention it's gonna look fantastic, and be stiffer then Acrylic. A sheet of carbon fiber can make you A LOT of shells. So no, in the end it's not going to be that expensive.


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Are you confusing carbon fiber with something? Because carbon fiber is one of the strongest man-made material available. It's used to make hundred thousand dollar cars, and is also extremely pretty 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Yes carbon fiber is weaker towards shock or compressed, but when baked to shape along with epoxy it's impact resistant is hard to match unless you're using something like...Zirconia?_

 

Unfortunately I'm not... I'd give some quotes but since they are in Polish you won't understand it. Carbon fiber is the strongest material known but it's very fragile when you hit it. Take a look on F1 cars when they hit a wall they burst in to pieces. New carbon rods - very flexible but if you hit it they could easily broke.
 But yes carbon looks stuning 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Here's another thing, how much would cost you making arcylic or sillicone shell? if costs half of UM price ($90) it is pointless to me.


----------



## piotrus-g

Oh, btw. I found and old quotation for TWFK drivers straight from Knowles guess the price... $1.19 for order 25-9,999 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 no kidding... I'm gonna find out if it's still available at this price


----------



## Bilavideo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *piotrus-g* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Oh, btw. I found and old quotation for TWFK drivers straight from Knowles guess the price... $1.19 for order 25-9,999 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 no kidding... I'm gonna find out if it's still available at this price 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Wow!


----------



## MaoDi

Yes, but FI Car bodies aren't treated with epoxy to save weight. That is why it's more fragile when hit against a wall. Super cars on the other hand are, and if you take a look at some videos of crash tests on these cars you could see they hold up to impact a lot better than other materials used to make cars. But anyways, i love the looks xD My Phiaton MS400 is also made from carbon fiber. Oh did i mention Carbon Fiber is a material that is praised for it's pairing with sounds? that is why violins, violas, double basses are also made with CF. 

 Wow, if it's still $1.19, then order 26 and us three can split it as a dozen each! but that's pretty amazing...1.19


----------



## Bilavideo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *piotrus-g* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Unfortunately I'm not... I'd give some quotes but since they are in Polish you won't understand it. Carbon fiber is the strongest material known but it's very fragile when you hit it. Take a look on F1 cars when they hit a wall they burst in to pieces. New carbon rods - very flexible but if you hit it they could easily broke.
 But yes carbon looks stuning 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Here's another thing, how much would cost you making arcylic or sillicone shell? if costs half of UM price ($90) it is pointless to me._

 

Relative to other fabrics, carbon fiber is extremely expensive. But in the amount needed to produce a pair of earphone shells, the cost is trivial. Online, there are lots of vendors. Certain outlets - like pool supplies, motorcycle supplies and boat/marine supply stores - sell this stuff on a regular basis. Big projects are costly but making a pair of earphone shells is not a big project. 

 One place, Motorcycle Superstore, sells an 11 x 18 inch sheet for $12.99. That's more than enough to make dozens of shells. Sierra Composites sells a smaller sheet (11 x 8) for $11.95. That's 13 cents an inch. I found another place that sells a 24 x 15 inch sheet for $9.99. A 12 ounce bottle of mold release will cost you about $10. Depending on whether you want the resin to harden slow, medium or fast, a proper kit (with the epoxy and the hardener) will run you between $14 and $20. So, you could spend $40 on materials, but you would end up with far more in materials than you would ever need for a single pair of earphone shells. For that $40, you could outfit any number of earphone pairs, making the cost of an individual unit practically negligible.


----------



## MaoDi

I've got a box of carbon fiber in my garage. It's all large pieces of trimmings remaining from CF projects in the states. My brother took the box when he was on a trip for engineering. =) just saved myself a little bit of cash.


----------



## Bilavideo

Whoa! That's cool!


----------



## MaoDi

Now to figure out to make a mold....


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Now to figure out to make a mold...._

 

Self impression kit?


----------



## piotrus-g

Guys, please advice.
 I've got these 4 CI and TWFK. Now what to do? Go for UM Mage (2xCI 1xTWFK) or make W3 modified - 1xCI 1xTWFK with additional dampers (2000 and 680 Ohm) and simple crossover.


----------



## tsn141

how can i understand which driver has more detailed sound ?
 by impedance or other factors


----------



## cyberspyder

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've got a box of carbon fiber in my garage. It's all large pieces of trimmings remaining from CF projects in the states. My brother took the box when he was on a trip for engineering. =) just saved myself a little bit of cash._

 

Some ideas:

 1) Get a CNC-mill and program the driver body shape into the computer. (assuming, of course the carbon fiber has already been cured with resin; also that the CF is at least1/2 to 3/4" thick)

 2)Start with either a vacuum form mold and progressively line the inside of it with raw carbon fiber, paying attention to the weave. The probelm I see mainly with this is joining the two halves together. You'd need a fairly substantial thickness inorder to 'glue' the halves together.

 Brendan


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tsn141* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_how can i understand which driver has more detailed sound ?
 by impedance or other factors_

 

In general details depends on highs and higher mids. If we say that earphone are detailed we talk about drivers which have better highs and less quantity of bass. So mainly it depends on how you're going to tune HF.
 Yes, impedance (DC) is important - higher impedance less bass.
 Other factors - you should look at a graph, but since the graphs don't tell anything, you should rely on specialists from KA or Sonion.
 The other factor: number of driver in a design and isolation from background noise.


----------



## Bilavideo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tsn141* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_how can i understand which driver has more detailed sound? by impedance or other factors_

 

In the world of loudspeakers, different materials have different properties. To a certain degree, the level of detail is affected by which material you use. For our purposes, we'll stick with tweeters. When I was growing up, tweeters were just smaller versions of woofers, with smaller magnets and paper cones. The problem with paper is that its stiffness (which makes it less likely to ring) also slows it down. You get less detail with a paper cone.

 In the decades since, tweeters have been made out of titanium, cloth (textile/silk tweeters), aluminum, and even gas (so-called plasma tweeters). The lighter the mass, the faster the jiggling. On the other hand, metal tweeters tend to ring (unless effectively dampened) while cloth tweeters have that mellow roll-off but lacking that last ounce of presence. 

 So, one way of increasing detail is to stick to the right material, one fast enough to capture the finer resolution of the wave pattern, but with enough dampening to prevent ringing (the audible version of smearing in video). When it comes to loudspeakers, the choices (and weight of those choices) are more expansive than they are with earphones. Here, there are basically two types of drivers: balanced armatures (BA) and dynamics (John Grado's GR8 boasts a "dynamic armature" - something I still don't get). Dynamics have more ample bass. A whole diaphragm is moving back and forth, creating more dynamic changes to the air pressure. But since the mass of a diaphragm is greater than that of the filament in a BA, it's hard to get the same degree of detail. I haven't heard the famous IE8 but I keep reading about its bass and its spaciousness - but with less detail than the BA's.

 But if you're looking exclusively at BA's, how do you know which ones will have the best detail? My guess (and that's just what it is) runs something like this: They're all relatively identical in terms of speed. Perhaps the smaller ones have smaller filaments capable of faster speeds, but I suspect that the architecture is basically the same across the board. What's different is the sound signature. If you look at the graphs, you can see to what degree different drivers spike and trough. The more a driver veers away from a flat response, the more it affects the detail. So, I'd go with the flattest response possible.

 But since they all spike and trough somewhere, what do you do about that? Here, again, I'll offer my best guess. Human hearing is most sensitive in the midrange. That's our survival band. Just about everything we notice happens between 500 Hz and 2 or 3 kHz. Imperfections in this range are, by definition, the most noticeable. Further down the frequency band, the ear tolerates a great deal more distortion. In fact, the low-frequency boom-boom of many subwoofers is full of distortion, though nobody cares. On the other extreme, the higher the frequency, the harder it is to actually hear. The frequency waves get thinner and thinner. By the time you approach or pass the famous mosquito wave of 15 kHz, even if you can hear it, what you're hearing is like the thinnest strand of hair.

 So, if you want to improve the detail, work on producing the flattest response across the board. Where there are peaks and valleys, it's better to choose a signature with the fewest, the lowest and the furthest from the center of the midrange.

 Another factor affecting detail is phase. If the drivers are out of phase, you're going to have problems with phase coherence. Waves will cancel each other out or get to you out of sequence. This creates the sonic equivalent of double vision. Blurred vision, in the audio world, is the opposite of detail. If you think about it, when phase and distortion are working together, you end up with sonic mud. The key to phase is to make sure your drivers are in sync. The polarity of each must match. If you have multiple drivers, you need to make sure that they are working together. With loudspeakers, the number of drivers dynamically pushing and pulling affects the balance, much like vikings rowing together. If you have drivers yoked together, I've seen designers treat them differently, depending on whether you have an odd or even number of drivers working together. I'm not sure to what extent these issues cross over to the world of BA drivers in an earphone shell.


----------



## MaoDi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *piotrus-g* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Self impression kit?_

 

a mold, not an impression


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_a mold, not an impression 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

take an impression, make a gypsum/acrylic/epoxy negative, make a shell


----------



## cyberspyder

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *piotrus-g* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_take an impression, make a gypsum/acrylic/epoxy negative, make a shell_

 

That's what UE does IIRC.


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bilavideo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Here, there are basically two types of drivers: balanced armatures (BA) and dynamics (John Grado's GR8 boasts a "dynamic armature" - something I still don't get)._

 

My theory is that GR8 uses Knowles SR driver - "dynamic armature" - doesn't it ring a bell? SR looks like dynamic, but it's armature. Even sound impressions of GR8 are familiar to me, because they tend to sound similar to SoundMagic PL50 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 So if I'm right it's the most expensive SR-driver-earphone ever made


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cyberspyder* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's what UE does IIRC._

 

absolutely right


----------



## MaoDi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *piotrus-g* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_take an impression, make a gypsum/acrylic/epoxy negative, make a shell_

 

Gymsum, or alabaster is too soft and when removing the impression it'd probably be damaged even before making the shells. Don't got anything a home to cure acrylic, and leaving an impression in liquid acrylic to cure by sun for that long will probably cause it to shrink. Epoxy will stick to impression like super glue and you'd never get all the little bits out.

 UE makes there casts out of silicone for archiving, and a colloid material (not sure what is suspended in what).


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Gymsum, or alabaster is too soft and when removing the impression it'd probably be damaged even before making the shells. Don't got anything a home to cure acrylic, and leaving an impression in liquid acrylic to cure by sun for that long will probably cause it to shrink. Epoxy will stick to impression like super glue and you'd never get all the little bits out.

 UE makes there casts out of silicone for archiving, and a colloid material (not sure what is suspended in what)._

 

Then make ceramic negative or serch for special materials appropriate to this aim


----------



## MaoDi

thinking thinking...


----------



## piotrus-g

Google Tłumacz here's something you might want to read


----------



## Bilavideo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *piotrus-g* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My theory is that GR8 uses Knowles SR driver - "dynamic armature" - doesn't it ring a bell? SR looks like dynamic, but it's armature. Even sound impressions of GR8 are familiar to me, because they tend to sound similar to SoundMagic PL50 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 So if I'm right it's the most expensive SR-driver-earphone ever made 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Oh my gosh. Isn't the SR driver the cheapest one Knowles makes? Wouldn't that be a total laffer if the mighty GR8 were actually driven by a pair of $12 drivers?


----------



## cyberspyder

You can cure acrylic at home with a UV light....doesn't take a very powerful one, just takes a bit longer.


----------



## piotrus-g

Hmm, I've got dilemma... I realized that I hate q-jays mids (which use TWFK) so if I'm going to stick to CI-TWFK I have to cross them on higher mids like 3-4kHz but the point is I don't know how CI would cope with 1-3kHz

 Bilavideo please tell how your modified W3/UM3x sound like. What kind of cross-over you use and what dampers values?


----------



## Bilavideo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *piotrus-g* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hmm, I've got dilemma... I realized that I hate q-jays mids (which use TWFK) so if I'm going to stick to CI-TWFK I have to cross them on higher mids like 3-4kHz but the point is I don't know how CI would cope with 1-3kHz

 Bilavideo please tell how your modified W3/UM3x sound like. What kind of cross-over you use and what dampers values?_

 

I didn't use a crossover at all. I still think crossovers on these things are somewhere between a joke and a marketing ploy. I went with a red filter on the CI and no filter on the TWFK. It has better bass while leaving the high end as open and unveiled as possible. If the TWFK were a single-driver "tweeter," I might lose a wink of sleep over not employing a crossover to save the tweeter or purify its load. But the TWFK isn't a single-driver. It's a dual driver attempting to provide LF as well as HF. The LF it provides is not impressive to the bassheads, since it's just a little above flat, but a flat presentation all the way down to LF is pretty impressive. I first chose the TWFK because I felt I could pair it up with another driver, filter out the HF on that second driver and basically double my bass with minimal headaches.

 It works.


----------



## piotrus-g

So basically you have three drivers in parallel? without any cross-over. and 2200 Ohm damper.

 I think about CI with red damper and TWFK + cap between TWFK's drivers.


----------



## H22

---Steve Martin in dirty rotten scoundrels----
 "WOW!,...WOW!,....ALL I CAN SAY IS WOW!


 I am continually impressed with the skill and knowlage of the DIY comunity in general. But DIY iem's? Amazing, well done guys. 

 I Hope these projects continue to a point where even an average DIY'er like me could build my own set of plugs that can fair with the best +$1000 offerings for 1/4 to 1/3rd the price. 
 What would be cool is if "kits" could be put together for GB's, and let the end user pick various drivers for a perticular sound (Me being a bass head I would want a dedicated "woofer" in the mix)

 As far as carbon fiber goes, I think it is a great idea. The arguments against it on this thread are a bit confusing to me. Here is what i do know about it:

 1, incredibly strong, not sure where the "prone to shatter" comes from but thats just not true, the millitary is/was looking into the stuff for battle ships and praised it for its ability to take gunfire and NOT shatter.....

 2, Is well suited for "wearable" anything. many prosthetic limbs are made of the stuff.

 3, for an aplication like this, expencive vaccume molds and presurised ovens are NOT needed, just mold it up the same as you would fiberglass and results can be quite nice, for even better results do a bit of vaccume bagging ( fairly cheep and easy ) and get outstanding results. 

 I will be following this thread with much enthusiasm, like i said, WOW.


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *H22* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I Hope these projects continue to a point where even an average DIY'er like me could build my own set of plugs that can fair with the best +$1000 offerings for 1/4 to 1/3rd the price. 
 What would be cool is if "kits" could be put together for GB's, and let the end user pick various drivers for a perticular sound (Me being a bass head I would want a dedicated "woofer" in the mix)_

 

Thanks for your appreciation. Right now it's possible to build IEM for 1/5 of this price when buying drivers especially from sonion. And for about 1/10 of this price when sampling drivers 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 It's actually impossible that people would pick drivers by themselves. Unless they chose from given drivers. There're just a couple of drivers from KA or Sonion which are suitable for IEM designs. Moreover in some designs it would be even impossible to add another driver firstly because of size secondly because of impedance.
 No offence, but I assume that using CI, 3300 or 2000 don't need additional woofer.


----------



## piotrus-g

I recieved another quotation from knowles. Unfortunately the prices aren't so low as the last time. They want $43.55 (1-10pcs) $33,25 (10-100) minimum order is $500 per line so it's about 15 drivers.


----------



## Bilavideo

If you want the TWFK for a good price, pre-order it from Newark. It'll take more than a month to get your driver, but it'll be at a deep discount, with no minimum orders.


----------



## H22

Quote:


 No offence, but I assume that using CI, 3300 or 2000 don't need additional woofer 
 

None taken! I must admit that i just found this thread, and as it is SOOOO long I just skimmed the parts that listed all the many drivers and such. My intent was that as You who are doing all the "heavy lifting" on this project could make recomendations as to what drivers work best for certain sound signatures, in single or multiple set-ups. As most all of the high dollar iems use multiple drivers, my feeling is that this will be the most valuable info (witch drivers seem to work best together...) for those of us who just want to do up a set once, and not have to do a bunch of trail and error.... ( as that is what You all are doing.....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ). 

 So, Now that I have the bug..... I just ordered a set of universal mestone U3X's used for a good price, so i have my old set of shure310's that might be a good candidate for a driver upgrade! would the CI, 3300 or 2000 or TWFK be a good place to start?
 Thanks, Joe


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *H22* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So, Now that I have the bug..... I just ordered a set of universal mestone U3X's used for a good price, so i have my old set of shure310's that might be a good candidate for a driver upgrade! would the CI, 3300 or 2000 or TWFK be a good place to start?
 Thanks, Joe_

 

Well actually I don't think that making customs from se310 is a good idea. SE310 are built on back vented driver which means that driver is actually open. That allows air to move - just like bass-reflex construction in normal speakers.
 It could work if the driver had that space behind. Other way it's gonna sound very different. Mainly there will be less bass so additional driver or two would be needed. If you really want to add drivers to se310's driver then I'll go for 3300 and TWFK or something from 2300 as a tweeter. Though if you like bass additional tweeter can be optional.


----------



## H22

Quote:


 Well actually I don't think that making customs from se310 is a good idea. SE310 are built on back vented driver which means that driver is actually open. That allows air to move - just like bass-reflex construction in normal speakers.
 It could work if the driver had that space behind. Other way it's gonna sound very different. Mainly there will be less bass so additional driver or two would be needed. If you really want to add drivers to se310's driver then I'll go for 3300 and TWFK or something from 2300 as a tweeter. Though if you like bass additional tweeter can be optional. 
 

Ahhh, well it was a thought. looking at them it appears that it would most likely destroy them trying to get them apart anyway.....


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bilavideo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If you want the TWFK for a good price, pre-order it from Newark. It'll take more than a month to get your driver, but it'll be at a deep discount, with no minimum orders._

 

Thank you for this info. Although I've already requested samples from KA and I am expecting them on 8th Dec.


----------



## Bilavideo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *H22* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_None taken! I must admit that i just found this thread, and as it is SOOOO long I just skimmed the parts that listed all the many drivers and such. My intent was that as You who are doing all the "heavy lifting" on this project could make recomendations as to what drivers work best for certain sound signatures, in single or multiple set-ups. As most all of the high dollar iems use multiple drivers, my feeling is that this will be the most valuable info (witch drivers seem to work best together...) for those of us who just want to do up a set once, and not have to do a bunch of trail and error.... ( as that is what You all are doing.....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ). 

 So, Now that I have the bug..... I just ordered a set of universal mestone U3X's used for a good price, so i have my old set of shure310's that might be a good candidate for a driver upgrade! would the CI, 3300 or 2000 or TWFK be a good place to start?
 Thanks, Joe_

 

If I were going to set up a single-driver design, I personally would be interested in drivers with good frequency extension and as flat a response as possible, knowing of course that they all go loopy at the high end of the spectrum.

 The BK 21669 has a lot of SPL (with a sensitivity of 125 dB at about 1.5 kHz). It has three peaks between 1 kHz and 3.5 kHz, 20 dB above the bass floor at 200 Hz and about 18 dB above the 106 dB cutoff at 5 kHz. That doesn't really do it for me.

 The CI series is a little better, with a 12 dB difference between the 113 dB at 200 Hz and the first peak (of 127 Hz) at 900 Hz. The CI also goes through three peaks by the time it gets to 3 kHz but it delivers some HF extension to 6 kHz and looks a little less erratic, even if it - too - is midrange heavy. People use it as a woofer by filtering out the HF and simply using the 114+ dB bass at 200 Hz. I've actually wired these up solo and while they are, in fact, heavy in the midrange, they mellow nicely with a good foamy tip and the right placement in the ear - and that was without a filter of any kind. I thought, for a driver that plays this much midrange, it had a lot of pop to it.

 The DTEC is definitely smoother, a fact I hadn't caught on to immediately and one for which I have to be grateful to my collaborators here. Boasting 113 dB at 100 Hz, this one holds steady all the way up to 500 Hz before it makes a reasonable climb to its first peak (123 Hz at 1 kHz). This one has five good peaks between 1 kHz and about 6 kHz, along with a weaker one of almost 90 dB at 7 kHz, along with 85 dB delivery at 10 kHz. You really can't go wrong with something that strong. Overall, it's a remarkably stable and relatively flat performance.

 The ED series is more of a woofer candidate than a solid solo driver. While 110 dB at 100 Hz is not particularly impressive, in terms of its output, the pattern is more of a roll-off in the midrange (bass gradually rolls -10dB from 100 Hz to 1 kHz). It has only two spikes, 110dB at 2.5 kHz and 101 dB at 5 kHz. Its HF extension is somewhat limited (80 dB at 6 kHz). Still, if used as a woofer - with filters designed to focus on the low end - this could be a very useful driver, even if you had pair it with others.

 The EH driver is very flat from 100 Hz to 1 kHz, even if a bit subdued (about 98 dB throughout). Of concern is the 15 dB spike at 2.5 kHz, but its second spike (105 dB at 5 kHz) and its 90 dB extension at 9 kHz make it a worthy candidate for further review.

 The ES series is another low-profile driver. It makes no performance claims prior to 200 Hz, but it starts there at 104 dB and gradually descends to 101 dB at 1.5 kHz before climbing to its first spike of 106 dB at 2.5 kHz. We're not talking about killer bass or killer HF extension (which drops off around 7 kHz). Still, the spikes on this one late enough and gradual enough to make it another worthy candidate for further review.

 I'm not in love with the EC, which has an unimpressive bass, a limited HF and a midrange mountain at 1.5 kHz. This is a hearing aid driver, for sure, not really an audio driver worth considering.

 I'd say the same for the EF, which is nice and loud (126 dB at 1 kHz) but weak in bass, though it's pumping 95 dB at 7 kHz. 

 The EP has about 107 dB at 200 Hz, gradually tapers to 105 dB at 1 kHz, then climbs to its first pike at 113 at 2.5 kHz. HF extension is not huge (87 dB at 6 kHz) but its stability is probably its best asset.

 The FK, depending on the driver, is very flat from 200 Hz to 1 kHz, then builds to its first spike of 109 dB at 2.5 kHz. It's running 100 dB at 6 kHz. It boasts 80 dB at 9 kHz, which is pretty good HF extension.

 The SR has an interesting 112 at 100 Hz, with a gradual dip to 109 dB at 800 Hz, then building to its first peak of 120 dB at 2.5 kHz before dropping to 97 dB at 6 kHz and then building to a second peak of 110 dB at 9 kHz. 

 Despite its premium cost, the TWFK wins hearts and minds because it has a flat, slightly bass-friendly, performance from 97 dB at 100 Hz to 94 dB at 1.5 kHz before building to its first peak of 103 dB at around 3 kHz. There's a dip to about 93 at around 5 kHz, then a second peak of 97 dB at 6 kHz, followed by a roll-off that still outputs about 74 dB at 10 kHz.


----------



## piotrus-g

That's a nice summary 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Actually some recievers can be used as the IEM drivers others can't. It's worth to remember that eighter KA or Sonion make transducers for hearing aids. Knowles provides more IEM-drivers options but I Sonion seems to have somehow straight dedicated IEM drivers


----------



## piotrus-g

Hey, I just hit on idea... UM1 use green damper (1000 Ohms) which make mids sweet but really cuts off highs. I think that changing it to 320-680 Ohms damper would make significant difference...


----------



## Bilavideo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *piotrus-g* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey, I just hit on idea... UM1 use green damper (1000 Ohms) which make mids sweet but really cuts off highs. I think that changing it to 320-680 Ohms damper would make significant difference..._

 

Hey, you may be onto something. I've heard some negative things said about the muddy sound of the UM1s. If Westone had the bollocks to actually shove a green filter in there (oh my gosh) no wonder people are walking away unhappy. Yes, yes, it's time to pop out that green filter (Heretics!) and try a whitey, a brownie or a reddie. With a whitey, the UM1s will sound a lot more detailed. It'll be night and day.


----------



## MaoDi

that sounds nice. Someone care to run out to get a pair of UM1's to try? 

 UM just finished one pair of my 6 six driver custom with Semi-Proprietary drivers.


----------



## H22

WOW, so many drivers........

 So, has anyone looked at the set-up in the highly touted JH13's?

 I know they have "dual lows, mids and highs" are these just 3 dual drivers or do they actually use 6 individual drivers?

 Man how neet would it be to build a DIY JH13 "clone".

 I know this is probly in this thread somewhere, so forgive me but its a huge thread, but where would be a good place to get a DIY or home ear molding kit?

 Joe


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *H22* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_WOW, so many drivers........

 So, has anyone looked at the set-up in the highly touted JH13's?

 I know they have "dual lows, mids and highs" are these just 3 dual drivers or do they actually use 6 individual drivers?

 Man how neet would it be to build a DIY JH13 "clone".

 I know this is probly in this thread somewhere, so forgive me but its a huge thread, but where would be a good place to get a DIY or home ear molding kit?

 Joe_

 

I'm so curious about your SIX MaoDi 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and the most about your custom-dual ED driver hehehe

 JH13 uses dual drivers so basicaly there're 3 drivers which actually make it 6 drivers 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 It's possible to do JH13 clone this's what MaoDi did but he employed other drivers.
 If you'd like to build JH you'd have to use Sonion drivers instead of Knowles I guess.

 Oh and btw. I am still waiting for my TWFK because KA made a mistake shipping it, but it's a long story. I hope to send out my impressions and drivers to UM in the middle of upcomming week.
 I am only worried that I won't get what I'd like to since Sam hardly understand what I want. I wonder if sending them transalted instructions in chinese


----------



## MaoDi

Haha, love the post above below mine. Totally missed my post about a six driver custom 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 but yes the JH13 uses three dual element drivers, so it's two BA's glued to get together. There's really no difference from using dual element and two single individual drivers.

 Mine isn't a clone of the JH13 but rather a design i came up with, in a way similar to the JH13 but different. The drivers are similar to the JH13, using both Sonion and Knowles drivers. The high freq driver is a TWFK, mid frequency driver is a proprietary DTEC, and the low is a Proprietary 3300. 

 Hope your design comes out like you want it to piotrus 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 nbow i'm just waiting for UM to finish my other pair.


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_mid frequency driver is a proprietary DTEC, and the low is a Proprietary 3300. _

 

I though you're about to use DTEC for low, custom-dual ED and TWFK, weren't you?


----------



## H22

Quote:


 Mine isn't a clone of the JH13 but rather a design i came up with, in a way similar to the JH13 but different. The drivers are similar to the JH13, using both Sonion and Knowles drivers. The high freq driver is a TWFK, mid frequency driver is a proprietary DTEC, and the low is a Proprietary 3300. 
 

That is simply awesome, Do you have any pics? ( or again was I just to lazy and missed them somewhere in this thread..... ) 

 How do they sound?


----------



## MaoDi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *piotrus-g* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I though you're about to use DTEC for low, custom-dual ED and TWFK, weren't you?_

 

Doesn't work out as well as this config 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 the ED's work really well as full-ranmge drivers so i'm gonna see if i can make it a simple full range arrangement with the ED's. I think it should work pretty well. The proprietary 3300 works better in the lows compared to the DTEC, so that's why it's going in the lows pos, while the DTEC works as a excellent mid-range driver. 

 As to how they sound, not sure yet but they should be no less than awesome. Just waiting for UM to finish my Custom UE13 then both of them ship out. Not sure how long it's gonna take though, still working out some stuff in the crossover.


----------



## igotyofire

i want to hear more about this..wonder if its possible to just throw in better drivers into existing sennheiser c300 or apple buds


----------



## kenneth_pun

Hi everyone, I'm new here. I read this thread few months before so I want to make a Home-made IEM myself. I made this couple days ago. Using Apple In Ear's driver, SE530's case and a standard UE universal fit IEM plug for changing cables =]
 Here's some pictures:













 Product:





 The apple In-ear is using a Knowles OEM combined driver. The sound of it is quite good, especially on mids and treble. Small quantity of bass. =]


----------



## kenneth_pun

Hi everybody! This is my first post in Head-Fi 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 I read this thread several months ago and I am interested in it. Couple days ago I put a small step this. I made a "Home-made" IEM using Apple In-Ear's driver (2-way Knowles combined driver) , SE530's case and a standard UE universal fit IEM cable plug.

 Here's some pics of it.:


----------



## Bilavideo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *igotyofire* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i want to hear more about this..wonder if its possible to just throw in better drivers into existing sennheiser c300 or apple buds_

 

Yes.


----------



## igotyofire

Question about wiring the drivers up, so it looks like the middle is ground(TAP?), the + and - terminals looks like u jsut pick one or the other depending on which ear its for? So i assume only two connections are required ? Sorta new to understanding TRS as i never heard of it until my recent cmoy build which is leading to making other endeavors 


 this picture was taken from the 22955


----------



## igotyofire

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *igotyofire* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Question about wiring the drivers up, so it looks like the middle is ground(TAP?), the + and - terminals looks like u jsut pick one or the other depending on which ear its for? So i assume only two connections are required ? Sorta new to understanding TRS as i never heard of it until my recent cmoy build which is leading to making other endeavors 


 this picture was taken from the 22955




_

 

heh i thought this was an easy question...


----------



## Danny_B 89

Hi there thought I could help you out with this. Funnily enough these drivers will work wired to any of the ports however the correct way to wire is 

 The - generally a gold wire will be wired to the - negative port. 

 The positive + generally a red or green wire depending on wire type will be wired to the + port.

 This is assuming you are using a headphone cable with coloured cores if they are both silver like westones cables you will have to look at the termination on the jack plug to find which is + and which is -.

 Hope this helps


----------



## H22

Quote:


 Mine isn't a clone of the JH13 but rather a design i came up with, in a way similar to the JH13 but different. The drivers are similar to the JH13, using both Sonion and Knowles drivers. The high freq driver is a TWFK, mid frequency driver is a proprietary DTEC, and the low is a Proprietary 3300. 
 

I am interested in leaning more about this configuration, Would you mind doing a "reveiw" of your various DIY-IEM's, Mainly what drivers you chose and why. And how they sound vs. expectations. I know this is scattered in places throughout this thread, but a single post ( with lots of pics ) would be awesome!


----------



## H22

*edit* when UM is done with them of course!


----------



## piotrus-g

I recieved my TWFK today 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I hope to make impressions tomorrow and send them to China. I have to make a scheme I assume that they would understand that


----------



## igotyofire

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Dan@ACS* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi there thought I could help you out with this. Funnily enough these drivers will work wired to any of the ports however the correct way to wire is 

 The - generally a gold wire will be wired to the - negative port. 

 The positive + generally a red or green wire depending on wire type will be wired to the + port.

 This is assuming you are using a headphone cable with coloured cores if they are both silver like westones cables you will have to look at the termination on the jack plug to find which is + and which is -.

 Hope this helps_

 

so the center tap needs no ground wire? my question was more specific to custom wiring, but now i understand what your saying.....Tip will be the (-) channel, ring will be the (+) channel...assuming ground at a the center tap?

 Now whats all this talk about adding resisters and capcitors? is the necessary? i thought u just wire the drivers up and ur good to go....


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *igotyofire* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_so the center tap needs no ground wire? my question was more specific to custom wiring, but now i understand what your saying.....Tip will be the (-) channel, ring will be the (+) channel...assuming ground at a the center tap?

 Now whats all this talk about adding resisters and capcitors? is the necessary? i thought u just wire the drivers up and ur good to go...._

 

I don know what do you mean by (+ and - channel).
 Correct wiring should looks this way:
 To the negative port (left on the picture) you solder ground wire. To the positive port (a very right on the picture) you solder positive wire (it doesn't depend on channels - each channel has its own positive and ground wire).
 [Edit] Center tap should be left alone

 Capacitors or appropriate soldered resistors with capacitors make the very simple cross-overs, actually these are pass-filters. They cut-off frequency (depends on capacity and resistance) you like to cut off. So you have tweeter and woofer or midrange etc.
 You don't have to use capacitors, resistors or even acoustic filters. But you have to know how transducer is going to react on application you are making. So be careful with your hearing! CI-like driver has 130dB output so it may cause hearing loss.


----------



## Bilavideo

You're right about leaving the center tap alone. It's just a matter of wiring positive and negative. If you get things mixed up, you'll get phase issues. The moment you switch those around, you'll hear an immediate improvement.

 As for the crossovers, most of those used are simple high-pass filters wired to the tweeters. It comes out weird when it's done to the TWFK because that driver is a "dual" woofer/tweeter.


----------



## igotyofire

what type of gauge wire is usually used when soldering to drivers this small?


----------



## Bilavideo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *igotyofire* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_what type of gauge wire is usually used when soldering to drivers this small?_

 

I used turntable wire I bought through Ebay. It's hairlike stuff.


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bilavideo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ It comes out weird when it's done to the TWFK because that driver is a "dual" woofer/tweeter._

 

Why do you say it's weird? To me it's rather typical and so mine TWFK will be wired with caps.


----------



## Bilavideo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *piotrus-g* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why do you say it's weird? To me it's rather typical and so mine TWFK will be wired with caps._

 

It's weird because you don't put caps onto woofers. You put them onto tweeters. Caps, by themselves, are used as high-pass filters. If you're protecting or streamlining a tweeter, caps make sense. If, on the other hand, you've got a woofer, putting a cap on it is counter-productive. Nobody puts a high-pass filter onto a woofer.

 The problem here is that the TWFK is a dual with only one set of terminals. It's not designed to have the tweeter and woofer wired up separately, so what you do to one, you do to the other. If you put a cap on your TWFK, you may be helping your tweeter but at the expense of your woofer. If you don't want the woofer half, why pay for it. You could get a better tweeter in a WBFK 30019 (more HF extension) and without having to make compromises because of the woofer.


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bilavideo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The problem here is that the TWFK is a dual with only one set of terminals. It's not designed to have the tweeter and woofer wired up separately_

 

I kindly disagree. TWFK driver has two sets of terminals
 This is the way TWFK ought to be wired:





 Moreover TWFK combine following drivers FK and WBFK in the provided scheme FK driver works as a full range speaker and WBFK as a tweeter.
 They can be wired separately, mean they both work as a full range. Separate wiring you can notice in Westone W3 or UM3x. Where each driver is wired straight to the cross-over.


----------



## MaoDi

Yes, you can wire the TWFK with two channels. They have their negative terminals links together, which is the signal that doesn't get altered whether you have a cap or not. What lies in the difference in sound is the positive signal, which you can choose to put a cap on one and not on the other.


----------



## Bilavideo

To be sure, there are two sets of terminals but as you'll notice from the diagram, they're cross wired and the data sheet that goes with the TWFK contains the following language in note two:

 "Located from two surfaces for customer convenience. Only applicable from one surface. Not to be used together."

 Am I misreading this?


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bilavideo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_To be sure, there are two sets of terminals but as you'll notice from the diagram, they're cross wired and the data sheet that goes with the TWFK contains the following language in note two:

 "Located from two surfaces for customer convenience. Only applicable from one surface. Not to be used together."

 Am I misreading this?_

 

Yes and no. Read what MaoDi said. Cross wired are negative taps - for "customer convenience" - you solder ground wire to the one tap so it automatically applicated to the second driver. But there're two positive taps so you have to solder each tap with positive signal wire and alternatively add a cap.


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## MaoDi

you are reading correctly Bilavideo, but just a slight misunderstanding. Like Piotrus said, only the negatives are wired together. The positives are separate, meaning you can put a cap on one and none on the other if you choose.


----------



## piotrus-g

Guys have you ever imagine making full-size headphones based on armature drivers? I mean like 40mm armature driver? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






 This will need probably a nice amout of power to drive. I think this had to be SR type driver to fit full-size can


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## MaoDi

Yes i have thought about that, and thought that that would be crazy, and we'd lose our hearing...since i can't imagine what kind of output the drivers could do 160dB? :|


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## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes i have thought about that, and thought that that would be crazy, and we'd lose our hearing...since i can't imagine what kind of output the drivers could do 160dB? :|_

 

Well yeah, It'd be crazy 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 but hey you don't have to crank the volume to the max. If I'm correct if I built (let say) 10times larger driver then I'll have to use 10x more power to achieve the same outpul level. This mean you'll have a ~120dB @1V which is really crazy... though you never listen to your headphone on even 90dB, right?


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## MaoDi

true but what if you just ACCIDENTALLY had the volume up there D= then no more IEMs! OR HEADPHONES! =O but hey, can't we have something like 20 regular sized balanced armatures with crossover? i mean it's be more than enough


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## MaoDi

My first 6 driver is done.


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## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My first 6 driver is done.




_

 

I can't stop staring at them! I hope they sound as beautiful as they look 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 My first customs are going to be transparent but the second one without doubt will be light blue - that's my favourite customs color.
 Please writte how it sounds


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## MaoDi

They are beautiful, i know. I can't stop looking at them either =). My other 6 driver custom is gonna be finished in about two weeks, and both should be on their way here in three.


----------



## piotrus-g

I have taken my impressions today. Actually I liked the filling of the silicone in my ear  Anyway I paid ~$6 for both ears 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I also have sent all the stuff to UM, it should arrive in 6-8 days to China.


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## piotrus-g

Guys take a look on disassembled Sonion 3100 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


Klipsch headquarters walkthrough: headphone design - Engadget Galleries 19th photo


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## MaoDi

White S4's =O


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## piotrus-g

someone was faster then me  no actually these are old type armatures but it brings me an idea how such headphones could look like or even where to find parts like magnets 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 here you can find some more: Inside Elements.
 Meanwhile I found another BA manufacturer, how it's odd, isn't it? Company name is Tibbetts. You can find them here: http://www.intricontibbetts.com/receivers.html
 I don't think that drivers they make are good for audio, but the graphs don't show everything, right?


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## MaoDi

i've come across that company before, but it didn't interest me that much. A lot of their receivers response are similar to Knowles drivers. For example, their largest driver which is the 83-17 or something is really similar to the CI with a slightly less powerful low-end response in the graph.


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## piotrus-g

I'd use their 163 series driver it looks bass heavy. Almost 130dB at 200Hz and 140dB at 1kHz. That makes it more powerfull then 3300 and CI


----------



## Huxley

Well colour me impressed, was there much work involved getting the drivers into the casts?


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## MaoDi

tuning everything was actually the hardest, honestly three drivers this small isn't a problem to fit into the shells. I am thinking of making a design of 8 drivers consisting of DTECs, EDs, and TWFKs. Me lookling at the drivers say they'll all fit in the shell, but i can't be sure.


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## piotrus-g

8 drivers are possible to fit. Even now when my 3ways aren't done I am thinking of complitely new design 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 My thoughs go around 4 way and 5 way (meaning ways not the drivers themselves) but this will be verified by time.


----------



## Bilavideo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *piotrus-g* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I can't stop staring at them! I hope they sound as beautiful as they look 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 My first customs are going to be transparent but the second one without doubt will be light blue - that's my favourite customs color.
 Please writte how it sounds 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Wow! MaoDi, you did wonderfully! I'm in total awe! Those six-driver phones are absolutely gorgeous!

 Got a question, now. It has been a while and info sometimes slips in one ear and out the other. How did you get the molded housing? Did you do that yourself or did you send off to have it done for you? 

 Again, wow!


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## MaoDi

Well i obviously didn't have the machines to make such a perfect, and beautiful mold. So i let the most praised company to do it. Which would be Unique Melody. =) There's more coming up, just waiting for the TF10 to be finished.


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## piotrus-g

I've went with UM too. I decided to go with them since their quality is unsurpassed as for the price they charge


----------



## pdupiano

Just out of curiosity, but what did you guys end up doing in terms of cross overs and how did you test them?


----------



## piotrus-g

So my cross over is the simplest possible. Design looks like this
 CI(whole freq) with 2200 damper TWFK's first driver (whole freq) TWFK's second driver with 1uF cap. TWFK with 320 or 680 damper - it's up to UM.
 Cap value choice was based on graphs. I left damper margine on TWFK's damper because I'm afraid that 320 would be harsh with too much of "sss" and "ccc"


----------



## pdupiano

So you guys didnt use your own caps? or is UM testing them for you and using what they use? If you buy your own caps, Id be worried about mismatches since its actually very hard to have two caps with the same value or even within a good tolerance unless you buy a dozen or so and pick out the ones you want. 

 Do you happen to still have the graphs for cap choices?


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## piotrus-g

Here you go:




 Caps will be matched by UM. Nevertheless I assume tantalum caps are cheap enough to buy a dozen at once.
 I go for 1uF cap since my design will be using dampers. Graph above shows TWFK without damping. I really hope to achieve very linear and wideband freqency response from TWFK going +- 3dB from 100Hz to 10kHz


----------



## kshelton

Wow this thread is amazing, I can't believe someone made a DIY IEM. Let alone one with 67 drivers! Nice work.


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## pdupiano

Thats a very strange graph. But thanks for putting it up. I was going to design my own set but at this point I don't think anyone with the exception of headroom or the other manufacturers have access to the equipment we'd need to actually design a decent set of iems.

 I actually am very confused about why you guys want a flat response for iems, it will sound very artificial. Its one thing for speakers to be designed with a flat response, but to design an iem with a flat response is just asking for trouble. Just look at the story behind the ER4B/ER4S from etymotic and the chances they needed to make because people were complaining about the ER4B's frequency response. 

 Anyway, good luck with the project, if I ever buy a test set up like they have in klipch or headroom's test dummy head, I'll be back here to post any findings.


----------



## piotrus-g

But hey! My design is not TWFK only. I'll have very strong CI woofer driver with like +10dB of bass. It will cooperate with TWFK which makes my design bass and mid oriented but without rolled trebles. I want to achieve fun, relaxing sounding earphones. That's not at all my sound-signature but I felt to make it this way.
 UM has the measuring equipment. I'm sure they make test prior to shelling. That's why I somehow rely on their knowledge and experience. I also decided to go with UM to have freq graph (which is not quite important) and all suff like impedance and SPL which I consider important.


----------



## MaoDi

what i have noticed is that the low end from the lowest frequency to about 700Hz needs to be 8dB-10dB higher than 1500Hz to 7kHz to have a nice feel to it. Now this is just basing on the graph, how the driver presents this is still extremely crucial. I myself have found that the DTEC, CI, 3100, and 3300 do the best job for this. This is my observations that is.


----------



## charlie0904

I saw the information on Fitear 6 driver spec, could this is done?

 6way 6unit 8receiver

 １，Knowles　CI22955
 ２，Sonion　 17A003
 ３，Sonion　 31A007
 ４，Sonion　 （2300系バックベント付き技術サンプル-発売予定なし？未流通品） <- this is an unknown
 ５，Knowles　TWFK30017
 ６，Knowles　TWFK30017


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## MaoDi

The funny thing is, those are all the drivers i have gotten for my own IEM's with the addition of DTEC, ED23147, and 3100's


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## piotrus-g

Funny, 2 days ago I have thought about double TWFK design 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 Guys from fitear have big ears, no doubt 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 CI and even bigger 2300 plus 2xTWFK... where they found space for those two, somehow big sonion drivers I dunno


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## MaoDi

the 668 they made for the owner of FitEar has a round faceplate, that is how they fit all the drivers in.


----------



## Bullseye

So, just to compile some info, MaoDi, you sent a 6 driver design to UM so that they would make the fitting in the IEM body, no? 

 And how much did it end up costing?


----------



## MaoDi

What i did was, take apart the SE530 to take advantage of the three driver. Previously i was going to pair them up with the proprietary driver used in the Jays t make 5 driver design. However, one of the high freq drivers was having issues with the diaphragm, therefore i was forced to remove the high freq drivers from the SE530. So i took advantage of the dual element driver responsible for the lows and mids in the SE530 to have a perfect mid-range driver. I then put on two dual element drivers to be responsible for both the high end and low end. DTEC was the choice for lows while the TWFK was for the highs. Integrated a 3-way crossover inside, made some specifics on how the sound signature was suppose to be and how the response was suppose to be. UM finished everything up.

 If you have a pair of SE530, you can have this option done by UM for you. It'll cost your $383USD plus shipping.


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## Bullseye

Hmm I see, thanks for the explanation. If you have a SE530 it seems like a good deal, but not having one you're better off with a custom one.


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## MaoDi

SE530's only go for $200-$250 on eBaylike i mentioned, so if you're interested in the monitor. Just pic one up and pay the $400, And you get a 6 driver monitor for $600-$650. Not that pricey, but it will take some time since you have to get the Se530, then ship it in, then have it shipped back after the two-three week assembly process.


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## piotrus-g

You know what's really bothering me? How much proprietary drivers differs in any terms from normal drivers. And how it affects on sound. I mean, how much driver can be tweaked to be still the same driver.
 I've been told that you can't build good sounding earphone unless using custom drivers.


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## pdupiano

A lot of it comes down to shaping the frequency response (in other words your cross overs and filters). Unfortunately, no matter how far diy iems go, unless the equipment needed to test the combined driver's frequency response becomes cheap and readily available, any and all attempts will be a shot in the dark. Most companies have the luxury as well of driver matching (even a multi-driver design can be matched to have good results), and your average diyer pretty much hopes that everything is within spec -even then there's a good chance for a +/- 5db difference between the drivers.

 I think Felix's idea of using a pair of SE530's helps a bit, because you will get the driver matching done, but shaping the overall frequency response is still a bit of a pain. 

 Piotrus-g, as far as I know some of the top speakers in the world use the same drivers, or same brand. A lot of times the drivers are the simplest aspect of designing audio equipment (since you can check the specs/price/etc...), the difficult part is designing the box to shape the frequency response, placement in a room etc... All of this translates as well into iem designs, where your variables become filters and capacitance values, how you mount them in your ear, what kind of acoustic tubing to use etc... Picking out the drivers in my opinion is probably the easiest part of it all, shaping them to get the sound you want may be the hardest.


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## MaoDi

Oh no, there's not driver matching from using the pair of SE530. I simply take the drivers, the crossover is taken out. I let all the detail in the hands of UM, where all the fancy equipment are. It's better of with them anyways. I let them know how the monitors needs to be made, and what sort of materials to apply. However, the matching, sound pressure output etc is all matched and done by them. Like you said, i simply don't have the equipment to test for all of it. 

 Custom drivers is an upper hand to your design, cause then you can alter the drivers to what YOU'RE trying to design rather than making a design that matches a driver. Doesn't necessarily mean you get a superior monitor, it just gives you more potential. Westone doesn't use proprietary drivers, yet they make some of the most impressive monitors on the market today.


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## pdupiano

I think you missed my point about the se530's, they are matched (by Shure) before sold as a set. Now if you used drivers from different pairs of Se530's, then it would be a different story. As far as I'm concerned, I doubt UM will actually match drivers for you since you're the one who ships out the drivers to them right? So you pick out your drivers, you buy them, then you're satisfied with them and finally you ship them of to UM and they just shell everything together. If this is the case, then UM is just a shelling company, nothing more.

 If UM on the other hand allowed you to pick out your drivers based on what they have in stock, and then let you pic the caps/cross over circuit, then you'd really be designing something. And they would presumably do driver matching at every point since they would have a large stock of drivers available and can pick out matching drivers. At this point I'd still say its a stab in the dark to get a well designed pair of customs by a diyer without the necessary equipment. 

 Custom drivers is a different story, its rather uncommon and extremely expensive. If you were to build custom drivers, they would all be one-of productions that may very well cost 10's of thousands to prototype and build. Its rarely if ever been done for even the top speakers in the world, I highly doubt that it would be done for any iem particularly any iem currently in the market. Drivers are also limited on their construction, you can't design a desired frequency response based on today's technology or even in the next couple of years. If it were the case that drivers can be designed/customized perfectly, then we would have seen perfect headphones and speakers by now. What we see are advances in different materials and nothing more, we can clearly see that the different driver technologies are still the same as it was decades ago. Custom drivers are neither feasable for the Diyer nor a professional company like Westone, Shure, even JH Audio.


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## MaoDi

That is exactly what i have done. I didn't just randomly choose drivers to put together, a fair bit of research and I've come up with which drivers to use. I specified what sound i "needed", how the drivers were to be dedicated, and the response of the monitor. What they then do is apply the best possible caps and crossover combo to achieve that sound. They match all the drivers to each other in other words to get the sound I needed. This isn't just hooking all the drivers up.

 Custom drivers are actually rather common, as long as you order 500+ of that specified custom driver, the drivers cost no more than regular drivers. (information straight from Sonion). The whole line of UE, Shure, and Jays use custom drivers along with JH Audio. Custom drivers isn't rare, it's just expensive for the DIYers as there's a minimum quantity which i believe is a hundred. Custom drivers can be made to suit exactly what you want, now to go down to extreme detail would be impossible as the technology used is still the same, just specified for your neds.


----------



## pdupiano

Wait a sec, so what was the point of you taking apart a pair of se530's if UM had the drivers? And if UM really does do all that (from tweaking, to driver matching, to customizing the frequency response -essentially the R n D for all the other major iem companies) for a few hundred bucks, then either you and I have a misunderstanding somewhere or everyone should forget about JH Audio, Westone, etc.. and just go to UM tell them, I want something to sound like the HD800's with a little more bass. Here is the 600 bucks and be happy with it. 

 I think the catch here is, what do you mean by matching drivers? When I say driver matching, I mean frequency response of each driver (without crossovers etc...) because each driver that is produced is produced within spec, but there are differences in each caused by large scale manufacturing. For a company to driver match, would take them quite a bit of time (just look at beezar and amb who match components prior to use in amps, or grado and sennheiser who match drivers so that they get similar frequency responses for the left and right drivers). All of these companies charge a premium for driver matching, in fact some of their grades (eg grado) charge prices based on how closely they match drivers and their closeness to particular specifications. 

 As far as custom drivers go, re read the limitations from Sonion, they really don't customize the frequency response of drivers. They are limited to BA design and do not even change materials. They can paint drivers, add plastic tubing, or premade filters (to prevent stuff from getting to the diaphragm). But this translates to the same set of drivers they have, with a little bit of modding (non of which change the inherent frequency response of the driver). So at this point, no manufacturer uses true custom drivers, they use drivers with mods that Bill spoke about at the beginning of the thread (acoustic tubings, filters etc...) 

 But see here's the rub, all of this fine tuning and changes take so much time and effort -hence my reluctance to believe that UM will do all of the work for you for a mere few hundred dollars when every other company invests tens of thousands to develop their "house sound." Even if you give them some specs and say "do the best you can." So either UM is the best company in the world, giving you what is worth thousands for a few hundred (in which case I hope all of us would jump on board), or there are some aspects in their design and work, or your understanding of their design work that is questionable. To be blunt -its just too good to be true (wayyyy too good).


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pdupiano* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_As far as custom drivers go, re read the limitations from Sonion, they really don't customize the frequency response of drivers. They are limited to BA design and do not even change materials. They can paint drivers, add plastic tubing, or premade filters (to prevent stuff from getting to the diaphragm). But this translates to the same set of drivers they have, with a little bit of modding (non of which change the inherent frequency response of the driver). So at this point, no manufacturer uses true custom drivers, they use drivers with mods that Bill spoke about at the beginning of the thread (acoustic tubings, filters etc...)_

 

That's exactly what I was trying to say. Custom driver is still the same driver but with other impedance or a little bit of tweaking. Sonion can make more sophisticated drivers like vented diaphragm (for less bass) or vented driver (for more bass output). BUT still it is THE SAME driver.
 To be honest I can't really imagine how much regular 3300 Sonion driver differs from SE530 bass-mid driver in terms of sound.

 Pdupiano, you ask whay to go with UM? Basically beacause they're good in what they do. Their shell quality is top notch. What we are doing is simply picking the drivers, making crossover desing and sending it to UM. Why? 'Cause it's cheap 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 one sonion driver costs like $10-15. TWFK is the most expensive among, it can costs even ~$60. So make an easy calculation. We can make something very close to the top IEM's with a very low budget.
 If Westone really doesn't use custom drivers then I'm getting right now myself ES3x for ~$150


----------



## MaoDi

I took apart the SE530 to take advantage of the driver itself, like i mentioned. The drivers within the SE530 are custom drivers that is exclusive to Shure. So that pair of driver is matched already. Yes, i specifically told UM to match the drivers for me, and prior to putting everything together, they test every single driver before putting the monitor together, That is how UM found that one of my high freq drivers for the SE530 wasn't responding as well as the other. The drivers for the left monitor are matched to the right, and respond and sound similar to each other before hooking them up. 

 I think there's a misunderstanding of the difference that impedance, thickness of diaphragm, and just simple tunings to the driver do. For example. within the ED series, there's so many drivers yet there's so much difference in each. The 29689 has a large mid-range bump, and a below 100dB response in at 1kHz and under at 1mw, where say the 24137 gives you a 115dB response with a more linear response from id-range and up. Yes the parts are the same, but simple differences in the part takes a huge difference to the resulting driver. If you imagine a simple cable can change the sound of a monitor, then you could imagine how much difference impedance, thickness of diaphragm, material of diaphragm, amount of magnets, material used for taps, venting etc could have on a driver.

 Piotrus-g, yes Westone doesn't use custom drivers. I can clearly see into my ES3X a TWFK 30017 and a CI22955. So technically, you could get yourself apair of Westone ES3X for $150 if you figure out a crossover that makes the drivers sound the same as the ES3X. Most the price paid for a custom monitor is the labour, not the materials. Ordering a thousand CI's probably average out to about $6-7 a driver.


----------



## pdupiano

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *piotrus-g* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's exactly what I was trying to say. Custom driver is still the same driver but with other impedance or a little bit of tweaking. Sonion can make more sophisticated drivers like vented diaphragm (for less bass) or vented driver (for more bass output). BUT still it is THE SAME driver.
 To be honest I can't really imagine how much regular 3300 Sonion driver differs from SE530 bass-mid driver in terms of sound.

 Pdupiano, you ask whay to go with UM? Basically beacause they're good in what they do. Their shell quality is top notch. What we are doing is simply picking the drivers, making crossover desing and sending it to UM. Why? 'Cause it's cheap 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 one sonion driver costs like $10-15. TWFK is the most expensive among, it can costs even ~$60. So make an easy calculation. We can make something very close to the top IEM's with a very low budget.
 If Westone really doesn't use custom drivers then I'm getting right now myself ES3x for ~$150 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

piotrus-g, I agree with you about the "custom" driver and I also agree with MaoDi (sorry If I referred to you as felix earlier, I figure MaoDi might be easier). The issue I have is that although sonion creates custom drivers, piotrus-g is correct in stating that ultimately these are changes that we could do (or a company like UM could do). I would only consider something truly custom (especially from a company) if I can't do it myself. If its about changing filters drilling holes (ok, maybe not drilling holes), then it's not really a custom, rather its just one of their drivers with a minute difference. MaoDi points out -even a small change is enough to change the frequency response -Fair enough. But what about when you combine the drivers? How do the drivers affect one another? Once again think of a multi-driver speaker lets say you have a tweeter, mid, and woofer in a cabinet. How do their outputs affect one another? There will be cross overs and mind you even with sophisticated crossovers, they still have issues with frequency responses, further more they will have issues with the rest of the room. The point I'm trying to get across is, spec sheets and data for individual drivers are pointless when really getting into multi driver design and I would like to think that the professional companies have come across this and that is where they spend most of their money -in researching and developing the desired frequency response by changing filters, changing housing designs, altering the angle of the drivers into your ear. 

 Once again I do not doubt that UM is the cheapest, but I truly doubt that they will do ALL that work for you (since its worth tens of thousands to other companies). I mean if UM is secretly the workhorse of Westone, JH, etc... then holy crap we've all hit the mother load. But once again I highly doubt it. So taking a look at the process that you have, we see that UM gets your different drivers, places the caps you want, and whatever filters or other misc. items you decide to include in your design, shells it and ships it off to you. During this time, do they test your design, print you frequency responses and ask you if you aprove, or if they should try something different? I'm only asking and pointing this out based on your earlier post stating that UM tries to apply the best caps and filters to get you your specified design, meaning that they would go through all that trouble for you like the sound engineer for JH in creating the house sound of JH. Once again, I am very skeptical that they would do this when it would take a very long time to do. 

 Furthermore, I would be VERY leery at companies who offer you frequency responses from a Custom iem. I'm ok with JH, and UE doing it because they have come up with universal prototypes and can therefore use it with their manikin heads like headroom. But to have UM make a one of design of a custom IEM and produce frequency responses should raise a big red flag for you. How can you trust the frequency response? Maybe its a frequency response before shelling? And if its a frequency response of the drivers prior to shelling them , is that really the true frequency response? Did they include the filters? Did they take into account the type of seal that you would get? 

 I'm not saying don't use UM, based on the customs you had earlier in this thread, I am amazed by the quality of their work, much better than companies with huge bubles/scratches etc... But there is a difference between what you think they are doing for you and what they are actually doing. The worst part is, unless the iems are completely faulty, it would be difficult to tell the difference,. Furthermore, if there is something faulty I am almost 100% shure that anyone would simply claim it to be a "different flavor" rather than a mistake in design/workmanship.


----------



## MaoDi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pdupiano* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_piotrus-g, I agree with you about the "custom" driver and I also agree with MaoDi (sorry If I referred to you as felix earlier, I figure MaoDi might be easier). The issue I have is that although sonion creates custom drivers, piotrus-g is correct in stating that ultimately these are changes that we could do (or a company like UM could do). I would only consider something truly custom (especially from a company) if I can't do it myself. If its about changing filters drilling holes (ok, maybe not drilling holes), then it's not really a custom, rather its just one of their drivers with a minute difference. MaoDi points out -even a small change is enough to change the frequency response -Fair enough. But what about when you combine the drivers? How do the drivers affect one another? Once again think of a multi-driver speaker lets say you have a tweeter, mid, and woofer in a cabinet. How do their outputs affect one another? There will be cross overs and mind you even with sophisticated crossovers, they still have issues with frequency responses, further more they will have issues with the rest of the room. The point I'm trying to get across is, spec sheets and data for individual drivers are pointless when really getting into multi driver design and I would like to think that the professional companies have come across this and that is where they spend most of their money -in researching and developing the desired frequency response by changing filters, changing housing designs, altering the angle of the drivers into your ear. 

 Once again I do not doubt that UM is the cheapest, but I truly doubt that they will do ALL that work for you (since its worth tens of thousands to other companies). I mean if UM is secretly the workhorse of Westone, JH, etc... then holy crap we've all hit the mother load. But once again I highly doubt it. So taking a look at the process that you have, we see that UM gets your different drivers, places the caps you want, and whatever filters or other misc. items you decide to include in your design, shells it and ships it off to you. During this time, do they test your design, print you frequency responses and ask you if you aprove, or if they should try something different? I'm only asking and pointing this out based on your earlier post stating that UM tries to apply the best caps and filters to get you your specified design, meaning that they would go through all that trouble for you like the sound engineer for JH in creating the house sound of JH. Once again, I am very skeptical that they would do this when it would take a very long time to do. 

 Furthermore, I would be VERY leery at companies who offer you frequency responses from a Custom iem. I'm ok with JH, and UE doing it because they have come up with universal prototypes and can therefore use it with their manikin heads like headroom. But to have UM make a one of design of a custom IEM and produce frequency responses should raise a big red flag for you. How can you trust the frequency response? Maybe its a frequency response before shelling? And if its a frequency response of the drivers prior to shelling them , is that really the true frequency response? Did they include the filters? Did they take into account the type of seal that you would get? 

 I'm not saying don't use UM, based on the customs you had earlier in this thread, I am amazed by the quality of their work, much better than companies with huge bubles/scratches etc... But there is a difference between what you think they are doing for you and what they are actually doing. The worst part is, unless the iems are completely faulty, it would be difficult to tell the difference,. Furthermore, if there is something faulty I am almost 100% shure that anyone would simply claim it to be a "different flavor" rather than a mistake in design/workmanship._

 

Yes, i've already come across the fact that spec sheets, frequency charts on the site for the driver are useless. I would agree that venting a driver wouldn't be "custom", yes it'll make a significant change but simply adding a hole in the housing of the driver isn't sophisticated enough. What i am saying for custom drivers are drivers that have the impedance that YOU want, the Frequency response that YOU want, with the sound signature YOU want. Knowles and Sonion can achieve this by changing the magnets used in the drivers, the diaphragm used in the drivers, the taps, the impedance, the sensitivity, filters etc...this is where i consider them custom drivers. (Venting is a add-on). 

 Answering the question about testing, tuning, and experimentation. UM does truly go through the trouble to do all this for you. They have a wide range of customers that come in to them (according to Sam directly) asking for specific designs, or adding drivers to their monitors with a specific sound signature. They actually go through the trouble of first testing all the drivers are working, and are similar and matched, along with then experimentation to acquire the desired sound or a sound that is superior. At the end, the monitor is put through quality control and a frequency response graph is then rendered from the output of the monitor which then a copy can be printed for you. Yes, UM only charges a fraction of the cost of other manufactures at a mere $300-$400 for putting a customized custom monitor. However, i'm not surprised at all, Westone charges $850 for their 3-way crossover triple driver model the ES3X while say Livewires and Fidelity only charge $370. Why? For one thing, you're paying for the huge company with 500 employees rather than a company with 50. Also, the brand name has to come into it. Now, i'm not saying that Westone charges $850 jsut for these two things, yes they do a lot of research into the monitors, and without a doubt offer one of the best sounding custom monitors on the market today but the amount of people doing the research and testing for that monitor is going to be ten times more than say livewires, Fidelity, and even UM. that $300-$400 is paid for the working of a single or two people at UM. That's where the large difference in price goes to.

 I would agree, a pair of monitor that only exists as itself without a duplicate could be said as the most superior monitor in the world since no one else can listen to them, and there isn't another pair of the same monitor to contrast to to find faults. But this design that i am going through right now is actually going to be offered as a remolding/upgrade service for UM after final testing. This IEM "IS" going to have other duplicates later on.


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## pdupiano

My last comment isn't an issue with having a one of a kind pair, but rather the test results they give you of a one of a kind pair. The difference is that I would be hesitant of trusting a company who provides you with test results of a one of a kind pair when they don't have the custom molded technology, to test it for you. 

 As far as the differences between prices being the cost of employees, there might be some truth in that, but what I'm reffering to more is the amount of time needed to dedicate onesself to such a project. IEM and sound engineers go for months to develop a particular sound and let it go through testing not just a mere hour or so. I can see UM testing each driver and matching them (something that would presumably take 10 minutes or more if they have to test a lot for you), but going through the repetitive testing and design of an iem is a different story. Just look at how much time you and others have put into reading/researching. Now how much time do you think it would take to try dozens of combinations to match the specs you want from them. When a big company does this, they do it once and are done after finding the house sound and presumably make large amounts of money because they no longer have to do that process... just produce the final product. But a one-off custom iem would have to go through that process over and over again.

 Now since you have mentioned that your design will become a common one for others in the future your experiences are no longer a "one of a kind custom" rather the prototype for a set of new iems in the future. In which case UM should be more than willing to go through the trouble of designing and prototyping. So in other words, your experiences can no longer be classified as a "one of a kind custom build" for them. Rather its like the first Head-fier who went to Japan and got his SE530's custom fitted through a little shop (his name escapes me at the moment). It was a trial and the shop owner charged him very little (in fact he left the owner with more money than the owner asked because the shop's work was just amazing), in hopes for future business with other iems and se530 remolds. The same could be true in your case. But at any rate, you stating that your iem will have duplicates in the future sort of negates what you've stated regarding the kind of customs that I've brought into question. But if you should commission UM in the future for a pair of one of a kind customs, I'd be all ears because that would probably determine whether or not I'll take the plunge into it as well.


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## MaoDi

The SE530 has been testing for two months now, and has just finished. Sam has put a large amount of effort in to it, and since he's not a employee that is dedicated to making the monitors but rather with public relations but also one who specializes in tuning monitors, he's had all the time on his hands to work with the monitors. Companies take such a long time because they don't have a basis to follow, for example they come up with a design and strive for the most accurate, yet punchy bass along with a smooth rich mid with a great amount of detail in the high which is suitable for listeners and audiophiles. See the problem with this is there is so many sound signatures, and so many combinations to test it would take like you said months to test and finish. However, in this case it's rather much more narrowed down. But what i wanted generalized keep the SE530 signature, but with a much faster, much more accurate, and punchy low end with a great amount detail in the highs with a great high frequency extension. Keep the mids sounding as they are now (but it will indefinitely be faster and more accurate since it doesn't have to worry about the lows). That makes sense right? It eliminates the needs to improve or change the sound signature of how the overall presentation is suppose to sound as there is a basis/reference to go to already, the SE530. 

 Well actually, they do this for all their customers wanting a specified design. Sam spent 6 months designing in house 6 driver monitor for one of his clients, so my mere 2 months of testing wasn't that much considering mine is possible to be an offering in the future while the 6 driver in house is the one of a kind pair for a client. My design was an "one of a kind" design until Sam in the end suggested it be offered to the public as an option. Which with me, wasn't a problem at all.


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## pdupiano

MaoDi, Did you really just state that a company did 6 months worth of work for a mere 200 bucks? At this point I highly doubt it. Theres a good chance that what he meant could very well be a "client" meaning a company that's going towards mass production. In which case, I would expect them to charge more. 

 As far as the SE530's are concerned, I'm afraid you won't get what you're looking for without a specific change in the driver design itself. Look up the different types of speaker drivers and the way that the drivers are housed. Depending on how a driver is housed, it will move the air around it in a certain way. To summarize a bit, when you have a totally enclosed box, you end up with bass, but the driver is very slow to respond because it has to go against the air inside the box. So some new designs were incorporated such as adding a hole (simply adding a hole) would help with the movement of air, so now you had something in between an open box and a sealed box, which would be somewhere between punchy and not quite as slow as a sealed box. Electrostats were another solution since they could be extremely fast, detailed and accurate, but they could not move as much air resulting in a very small amount of bass. 

 What you're asking in this case is to improve two aspects of the Se530's that are coupled together (unfortunately in a bad way). Think of having 10 points to distribute between speed and low end representation. This works for both the SE530 and the above example between sealed and open box designs for a speaker. As you distribute the 10 points between bass and speed, you will eventually come to a point where you have to balance which characteristic you prefer over the other or be willing to go 5 points and 5 points for each. Adjusting points can be done by adjusting your impedance, capacitance values, and filters but whatever you do, you are stuck at those 10 points. On the other hand, if there sonion produced truly custom drivers, drivers where you could change materials, design (perhaps an electrostatic microdriver) then you will increase the over all amount of points so now you can go to say 15 points. But even then, fine tuning will only allow you to manipulate the points. Just like everything that is engineered, you optimize rather than search for the best of everything approach. 

 Ultimately, if you want to truly improve your bass response AND speed at the same time, you will need redesign something -be it through new materials or newer and advanced techniques of reproducing sound such as orthodynamic, electrostat, or piezoelectric.


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## MaoDi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pdupiano* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_MaoDi, Did you really just state that a company did 6 months worth of work for a mere 200 bucks? At this point I highly doubt it. Theres a good chance that what he meant could very well be a "client" meaning a company that's going towards mass production. In which case, I would expect them to charge more. 

 As far as the SE530's are concerned, I'm afraid you won't get what you're looking for without a specific change in the driver design itself. Look up the different types of speaker drivers and the way that the drivers are housed. Depending on how a driver is housed, it will move the air around it in a certain way. To summarize a bit, when you have a totally enclosed box, you end up with bass, but the driver is very slow to respond because it has to go against the air inside the box. So some new designs were incorporated such as adding a hole (simply adding a hole) would help with the movement of air, so now you had something in between an open box and a sealed box, which would be somewhere between punchy and not quite as slow as a sealed box. Electrostats were another solution since they could be extremely fast, detailed and accurate, but they could not move as much air resulting in a very small amount of bass. 

 What you're asking in this case is to improve two aspects of the Se530's that are coupled together (unfortunately in a bad way). Think of having 10 points to distribute between speed and low end representation. This works for both the SE530 and the above example between sealed and open box designs for a speaker. As you distribute the 10 points between bass and speed, you will eventually come to a point where you have to balance which characteristic you prefer over the other or be willing to go 5 points and 5 points for each. Adjusting points can be done by adjusting your impedance, capacitance values, and filters but whatever you do, you are stuck at those 10 points. On the other hand, if there sonion produced truly custom drivers, drivers where you could change materials, design (perhaps an electrostatic microdriver) then you will increase the over all amount of points so now you can go to say 15 points. But even then, fine tuning will only allow you to manipulate the points. Just like everything that is engineered, you optimize rather than search for the best of everything approach. 

 Ultimately, if you want to truly improve your bass response AND speed at the same time, you will need redesign something -be it through new materials or newer and advanced techniques of reproducing sound such as orthodynamic, electrostat, or piezoelectric._

 

That 6 driver monitor didn't cost $200, i never said anything about the cost of it. He didn't tell me the cost of it, but i'm estimating around $700-$800. Mentioning though, they are located in China. Making money isn't the easiest thing over there, for all i know my recent trip to Hong Kong once again showed that the way of money making there hasn't change. Store rents go for $1500-$2000 USD a month yet the items they sell in the store cost a mere $2-$3. They don't go for big money making with a single sale but rather make less money from a single sale, but lure more sales by lowering the price. 

 Yes, balanced armature drivers take air to driver, like all speakers of course. However the amount needed in a balanced armature driver is the amount of air present in the air, and no more than that. Venting a driver allows more air for the driver to use, meaning a better response (mainly low-end since low frequencies uses more air). Meaning faster, less distortion, and better output. Since there's about 100x more air in monitor than the driver needs, there's no worry that there isn't going to be enough air for the drivers, but rather how the air is getting to the driver. 

 To your way of points, i don't disagree you are perfectly right. A driver would be limited to like you said for example 10 points. However, if we incorporate a second driver to do the same thing, then we have double the amount of points. Now we can have say 10 points running for speed and 10 points running for bass.


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## piotrus-g

With "$150 ES3x" I was trying to say that I'm getting something really close to Wesones. Meaning I didn't copy crossover design because my point wasn't getting ES3x monitor. If I'd like go for an already made design then I'll go for Mages - I had enough drivers to build Mage.
 Anyway I spent over 2 month thinking how to connect drivers, how to make it sound fun and enjoyable. How about impedance, how about SPL etc. I did resarch speaking with Sam and Eric and other people in business. Though I'm into balanced armature over a year now. As I stated in my first post here. These guys just gave me a spark to finally make my own customs.

 As we're talking about vented driver, TWFK is one.

 To be honest, yes I did shoot in dark with a little help of match. But once I recieve my IEM's and they will sound good enough I'll have a torch. Unless they sound other that I expected. I'll tell you just after they arrive if I achieved what I wanted


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## pdupiano

Adding drivers, particularly with crossovers won't actually help with improving the bass response because you are using crossovers to make each driver work with a particular frequency range correct? So if you add a dedicated driver for the bass, you still end up with the same problems, its still a driver limited to the 10points idea. Venting the driver could result in gaining a point or two but notice that would be something akin to the hole in the speaker set up (in other words a real variation in design). So if UM could drill a hole in those SE530 drivers then it might add a point or two to the overall design, but just adding another driver won't really help in the situation. And unfortunately looking through the spec sheets, companies really can't characterize speed and they are limited to giving you frequency data. So that means that its not possible to pick a "fast driver" specifically for the bass response (which may have worked with your se530 custom). 

 While you're correct about BA not needing as much air to move around, you also have to think that there isn't as much air to move around in a closed system. I mean ok, yes the driver is vented... but how vented can you get when you are in a pool of acrylic? Maybe companies should make specific air bubbles in the iem housing so that you can get the additional air. Once again I really wish I had the equipment to test if the housing affects the overall frequency response especially for vented drivers.

 Piotrus-g, did you come across issues with the flat frequency response yet? Looking at data regarding the human ear and how hearing works, it seems that we are particularly sensitive to certain frequencies (we are particularly sensitive to mid-range, and unsensitive to high and low frequencies -this might lead to the whole "smile equalizer" that a lot of people employ in their systems). But these sensitivities are connected to our outer ear (ear lobes etc...) that affect how audio waves bounce around, and eventually enter our ears. The way our ears are shaped affect how wave forms interact with one another, for example how they cancel out, how they are magnified etc... Just think of the old experiment where you're in a room with 2 speakers, and one particular spot in the room will result in no sound because the sound waves coming from the speakers cancel each other out. Your outer ears act as bouncing points for sound waves and they can interact in very complicated ways resulting in our "unflat" hearing. From what I gather, yes it is important for speakers and headphones to reproduce music/sound without prejudice (so everything is flat and equal), but it is not the case for IEMs. Ultimately iems bypass this feature in our hearing, so when we design something with a flat frequency response for an iem... we are actually creating something artificial. Nothing sounds as it would normally. 

 Now here's the rub with certain audiophiles and other audio enthusiasts. Which is better, gear that reproduces all frequencies without favoring a particular frequency range, or gear that reproduces the sound like it would if it were performed live. When it comes to speakers and even headphones, there's no issue since its the same. Although speakers can't achieve the true flat response, it is the ultimate goal in speaker design. Iems, in my opinion, should be designed to reproduce sound as we would hear it normally and can therefore not be designed to have a flat frequency response. 

 I'll admit that I am oversimplifying the hearing process because our mind does alter what frequencies we may or may not pay attention to, once again... I really wish I had the gear to do this research, unfortunately my university's a bit on the cheap side and its hard acquiring gear for any student, grad student or otherwise.


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## piotrus-g

Pdupiano, as I mentioned I spent over 2 months on this particular design. Actually Newark simplified me the task with a sale of CI driver ($6/each). But I considered CI drivers earlier.

 If you want to know what made me to choose those drivers?
 CI driver - high output, used in W3. Known from fine bass response and texture. This driver work as a full range driver with attenuated highs and mids - no cross-over here. I chose CI driver also because of human ear canal frequency response. I am aware that drivers with rather flat freq. response, relatively don't sound flat but harsh and bass-lacking. As mentioned before I wanted fun with a lot of bass, but without being overpowered.
 TWFK driver: this driver is being considered as one of the best driver for HF.
 I took advantage on the dual driver. "Lower" driver reproduce whole freq. Connected in parallel with CI driver. It makes (in theory) bass even more emphased. MF is something that I can't predict very well. It'll probably have a lot of output level with typical peak at circa 3kHz. I expect mids to be well produced.
 The second TWFKs driver is in parallel with 1uF cap. It'll have (on the paper) less highs than typical (0,82uF) TWFK. And have more flat response in 4-7kHz area. With use of lowest value dampers possible I won't attenuate high-end which is suitable for ears - as you said we need a little bit of emphasis there to have naturally sounding highs.

 As for the vented TWFK. It won't be sinked in acrylic. UM uses floating driver application, this means that shell is empty inside (with a lot of air to move for the driver).


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## pdupiano

Is the CI driver's response by itself? or is the characterization of it's bass based on the sound of the W3 which is a multi-driver, so I'm not sure you can compare the stock CI driver to the sound of the W3's bass.

 The TWFK driver is a combination of two drivers correct? is it possible to change the cap that is current used by the company? If I remember correctly, the TWFK is already connected with a cap to control the frequency response, I'm not entirely sure if you can replace this cap to change the output, but I would be worried about affecting the spec sheet frequency response if you do happen to change the cap or add another one. The one thing I'm worried about is using a cap with the TWFK (as a whole) would result in a roll off frequency around 15k (that's the 1uF cap that you mentioned). Maybe try a higher valued Cap to decrease the cutoff frequency to 7k so that you get what you're after.


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## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pdupiano* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is the CI driver's response by itself? or is the characterization of it's bass based on the sound of the W3 which is a multi-driver, so I'm not sure you can compare the stock CI driver to the sound of the W3's bass.

 The TWFK driver is a combination of two drivers correct? is it possible to change the cap that is current used by the company? If I remember correctly, the TWFK is already connected with a cap to control the frequency response, I'm not entirely sure if you can replace this cap to change the output, but I would be worried about affecting the spec sheet frequency response if you do happen to change the cap or add another one. The one thing I'm worried about is using a cap with the TWFK (as a whole) would result in a roll off frequency around 15k (that's the 1uF cap that you mentioned). Maybe try a higher valued Cap to decrease the cutoff frequency to 7k so that you get what you're after._

 

My answer to the first paragraph is "yes and no".
 Choice was based on sound of W3, but I didn't heard W3 so basically it wasn't a choice based on personal listening.
 Bilavideo made his own version of W3/UM3x I use his idea as a hint. He was quite happy with his design.

 Reffering to the second para. No, TWFK hasn't got on board cap. 0,82uF cap was used by KA to make freq graphs and other measurment.

 Why you saying that 1uF cap is going to roll off frequency at 15k?
 I thought that caps don't affect on hf bu cut off lows, right?


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## pdupiano

Well caps can act as either highpass, or lowpass filters in the least complicated circuits. From what I've seen in the TWFK and other designs, caps have been used as lowpass filters, meaning that frequencies above a certain range will be cut off. You can use the formula Fcutoff=1/(2*pi*R*C) where R is the resistance and C is the capacitance. In your case, not having a resistor results in just a value of 1 (or even less) and C is 1uF. just look up wikipedia's simple filter circuits (I checked earlier and everything looks alright). And if you want a high pass filter (meaning you block out the low frequencies), then a 1uF cap would block out everything up to 15k. But once again this is the ideal result, due to the nature of simple filters, a lot of the frequency roll off occurs well before 15k (probably 12k or so).


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## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pdupiano* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well caps can act as either highpass, or lowpass filters in the least complicated circuits. From what I've seen in the TWFK and other designs, caps have been used as lowpass filters, meaning that frequencies above a certain range will be cut off. You can use the formula Fcutoff=1/(2*pi*R*C) where R is the resistance and C is the capacitance. In your case, not having a resistor results in just a value of 1 (or even less) and C is 1uF. just look up wikipedia's simple filter circuits (I checked earlier and everything looks alright). And if you want a high pass filter (meaning you block out the low frequencies), then a 1uF cap would block out everything up to 15k. But once again this is the ideal result, due to the nature of simple filters, a lot of the frequency roll off occurs well before 15k (probably 12k or so)._

 

Yeah I know this formula.
 But what I've got is highpass filter it cuts off low freqs so I asked why you're saying that its going to cut off highs over 15kHz.
 I'll check my calculations tomorrow, but what I have calculated 1uF gives ~1,2kHz crossover (highpass) @12,5 Ohms (TWFK second driver's R)
 And this is something that has support on the graph I showed earlier.
 Acually I regret now 1uF I should use more uF that would make driver work between 4-16kHz


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## MaoDi

pdupiano, i think you're not understanding the idea of multiple drivers. Say you have 10 points for the driver. And you need say 5 points for speed to be satisfying, and 10 points on the punchy/power to have the lows satisfying. Now obviously you can't achieve this by a single driver since you can't get 15 points with 10 points. However, when we put two drivers in, we don't have the same issue. There' is now 10 points for every driver, so say 5 of each driver goes to speed. Since speed doesn't add up, speed is still at a satisfying rate of 5 points. However, since both drivers have a 5 point in power/punch, which we can hear as it's a impact. We are hearing a total of 10 points rather then 5 on punch and power, and 5 points in speed. The output of a BA driver is greater than any signal in music, meaning power/punch is never a problem. Venting a driver allows air to fill the driver faster, keeping it at full potential for impact/speed the whole time. Venting a driver has it's down sides, it increases airflow meaning the sound can be too boomy for the taste. Also, the SE530's driver is already vented if you look at the picture i posted.

 There's more than enough air in the shells for the BA drivers to work. Yes it's a closed system, but there's so much air in the shells compared to the amount the drivers use it's not even relevant to the sound. It's like putting a tiny fan in a 1000 sq ft room. Opening the window isn't going to make the fan move more air, there's more than enough air in the room already for the fan to handle. Acrylic shells aren't solid, they're hollow.


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## MaoDi

Also to mention, if you want a deeper sounding bass response, the soundtube should be extended, while the opposite applies for high frequency drivers. The shorter, the more "high" they sound. 

 Simple acoustic filters can achieve results as nice as applying crossover/caps. If you filter out the highs and mids of the CI driver, then you'll achieve basically a dedicated "woofer" while the same applies for "tweeters"


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## pdupiano

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_pdupiano, i think you're not understanding the idea of multiple drivers. Say you have 10 points for the driver. And you need say 5 points for speed to be satisfying, and 10 points on the punchy/power to have the lows satisfying. Now obviously you can't achieve this by a single driver since you can't get 15 points with 10 points. However, when we put two drivers in, we don't have the same issue. There' is now 10 points for every driver, so say 5 of each driver goes to speed. Since speed doesn't add up, speed is still at a satisfying rate of 5 points. However, since both drivers have a 5 point in power/punch, which we can hear as it's a impact. We are hearing a total of 10 points rather then 5 on punch and power, and 5 points in speed. The output of a BA driver is greater than any signal in music, meaning power/punch is never a problem. Venting a driver allows air to fill the driver faster, keeping it at full potential for impact/speed the whole time. Venting a driver has it's down sides, it increases airflow meaning the sound can be too boomy for the taste. Also, the SE530's driver is already vented if you look at the picture i posted.

 There's more than enough air in the shells for the BA drivers to work. Yes it's a closed system, but there's so much air in the shells compared to the amount the drivers use it's not even relevant to the sound. It's like putting a tiny fan in a 1000 sq ft room. Opening the window isn't going to make the fan move more air, there's more than enough air in the room already for the fan to handle. Acrylic shells aren't solid, they're hollow._

 

Sorry man but adding another driver doesnt necessarily add more into the system atleast not in the sense you're thinking of. Even if you have two drivers, both of which have say 5 points of speed and 5 points of impact, when you add them do you get 10 points of speed and 10 points of impact? Not at all, maybe 10 points of impact, but definitely not 10 points in speed. How could a second driver affect the speed? The way that multiple drivers could affect speed would be to separate the frequency spectrum they need to cover, say you want to cover 20hz - 500hz. One driver takes care of 20-200 and the other 200 -500. By reducing the load form the other, you can get an overall faster response, but this still isn't adding 5 and 5 points together. Ultimately you are limited by the physical properties of whatever material/design you use in the driver. 

 As for impact, if you use different drivers and they are coupled in an odd way, its actually even possible for them to cancel each other out through perfect destructive interference. The way that drivers are assembled, side by side then a channel or tube is used to connect them to one output, will result in some form of interference. It won't be completely destructive, but it will be partially constructive, and partially destructive. If you decide to forget about the frequency spread approach I mentioned above, you would then have 2 drivers working through the same frequencies (say 20-500hz). With multiple drivers, you would expect to hear twice the impact, unfortunately, the destructive AND constructive interference will create the bumps and ridges you see in a frequency response graph. frequencies that resonate (go through some form of constructive interference) will shoot up and frequencies that go down (sharp or otherwise) is the result of destructive interference. 

 Adding more and more drivers into a design won't necessarily help in certain areas (like improving the bass) but it can help in shaping your desired frequency. By introducing particular filters for ever driver you add in the mix, you are in effect creating your desired frequency. Think of the whole desired frequency response as a complete puzzle (lets say composing of 6 pieces). You then take them apart, but unfortunately the pieces get soaked in some water and expand. You use an exacto knife or a pair of scissors to trim the edges down and are able to put them back together as best as you can, but some of the edges dont fit quite well, but you can atleast somewhat complete the picture. In the analogy, the drivers are the puzzle pieces, and the capacitors/resistors represent the pair of scissors that allow you to fix everything. Unfortunately, its a bit optimistic to state that the caps are like scissors or exacto knives when in reality they are more like dull, rusty child proof scissors that can barely cut grass.


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## MaoDi

Hmmm, don't think you are understanding what i am saying. I know for a fact that adding a driver doesn't just instantly make the system a "better" or "superior", but when done right it does. Like i mentioned above, the speeds don't add up. If a driver is limited to say 10 points of speed, then adding more drivers is never going to bring the limitation to speed up, but it will bring the limitation to impact up on the other hand. Adding an additional driver that is in series "will" affect the speed. As an additional driver is introduced, the load of the each driver is reduced like you mentioned. The drivers don't have to cover a different frequency spectrum, they can cover the same spectrum yet reduce each others load. It's like having two people working on the same thing. We for example have ten multiple choice questions, and ten short answer questions. We can have two people do work in two ways, one person takes all the multiple choice and the other take all the short answers (your thinking) or have them each do 5 multiple choice and 5 short answer (in series or my thinking). Now you see, both work effectively, it's just a different way of reducing the load of each driver. The lower the load, the faster the response, the faster the speed. The difference that lies between our thinking is my thinking is the characteristic of the sound, like you mentioned.

 Yes, different drivers could cancel each other out if not tuned or paired properly. Also running through the same sound bore like you said could cause interference to each other's sound. That is why we have multiple bore designs, to prevent sound from mixing and interfering with each other.


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## pdupiano

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hmmm, don't think you are understanding what i am saying. I know for a fact that adding a driver doesn't just instantly make the system a "better" or "superior", but when done right it does. Like i mentioned above, the speeds don't add up. If a driver is limited to say 10 points of speed, then adding more drivers is never going to bring the limitation to speed up, but it will bring the limitation to impact up on the other hand. Adding an additional driver that is in series "will" affect the speed. As an additional driver is introduced, the load of the each driver is reduced like you mentioned. The drivers don't have to cover a different frequency spectrum, they can cover the same spectrum yet reduce each others load. It's like having two people working on the same thing. We for example have ten multiple choice questions, and ten short answer questions. We can have two people do work in two ways, one person takes all the multiple choice and the other take all the short answers (your thinking) or have them each do 5 multiple choice and 5 short answer (in series or my thinking). Now you see, both work effectively, it's just a different way of reducing the load of each driver. The lower the load, the faster the response, the faster the speed. The difference that lies between our thinking is my thinking is the characteristic of the sound, like you mentioned.

 Yes, different drivers could cancel each other out if not tuned or paired properly. Also running through the same sound bore like you said could cause interference to each other's sound. That is why we have multiple bore designs, to prevent sound from mixing and interfering with each other._

 

Sorry mate, drivers can't work that way. The speed of a driver is defined by its response to change (eg venting a driver should increase the speed, but decrease bass). Now you suggest that each driver splits up the load (like splitting up a set of math problems), does that affect how fast each driver works (or how fast each student works)? No, not in one bit. Each student works at their speed, and each driver performs as it normally does, regardless of the other driver (student). now you claim that because the students get done faster, the drivers should perform faster as well. Unfortunately, this is where the analogy fails. What you need to consider is that in the example, each student splits the work (attenuates the signal) rather than dealing with all the work. When you translate that over to the drivers what they've actually done is what I suggested in splitting the frequency they have to deal with. What you've actually suggested is that the students work independently and still do all the work (twice, since each student would get a similar copy of the hw problem) yet somehow still manage to work faster. There's give and take when you do any type of design work, simply adding, or making it bigger, etc... doesn't mean much when what you really need is a change in design. To keep up with the analogy, you need better students. So for example say one student has bad vision and that resulted in poor grades, get him/her glasses and they do better (perform faster). This change is a result of a change in the student (eg. vented driver) that ultimately leads to greater potential. 

 As for the multiple bore designs, there are 2 bores, and 6 drivers the math speaks for itself in terms of crossing signals. While this could possibly help, you would still have to take into account the final cross over when 6 "signals" mix together in your ear.


----------



## MaoDi

Sorry to tell you, shooting down all my ideas isn't gonna work. It's been proven that dual drivers in series reduces the load on each other. If there's weren't and had no affect, then UE, JH, UM, Earsonics, Insono, Compact Monitors etc... wouldn't be making the design. The problem with saying the speed doesn't change when adding another student is that the driver was never working to it's full potential in speed to begin with. Yes the fastest the students work at doesn't change, but cramming a student with a whole bunch of work just puts stress on the student and slowing down the student since he can't make clear, and fast thoughts anymore (speed) and even if they did they'd make a mistake as they try to rush though all the work (distortion). Add another student in to help the student finish the work, reduces the stress on the other student. Less mistakes, less stress, faster thinking.

 I understand what you're thinking, yes adding a driver doesn't extend it's ability in speed. But putting a driver by itself will lower it's ability in speed, you put a driver in series to reduce the load, you bring that ability in speed back to or closer to the drivers full potential.


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## pdupiano

I'm sorry mate, but you're misunderstanding how the load is reduced. You're not taking into account that in both the analogy and designing mutidriver systems, when you split the work, you are infact splitting the work. In what you keep suggesting, the drivers and students do not split the work. They instead do the same amount of work (since the frequency response isn't split and ultimately the drivers are just placed in parallel receiving the same signal -which results in no reduction in the amount of work at all). What you seem to be suggesting is that just by having a smart and average student in the same room, ,the average student will perform better even though both students are doing their work individually. I really hope you can see how the analogy and the reality fails what you are trying to describe. 

 As you stated multi-drivers are used by audio companies, but as I have suggested by splitting the frequencies to lighten their load and using multiple drivers to improve impact, but not speed. Speed is inherently based on the driver itself and the materials/design of the driver. You cannot improve speed by simply placing drivers in parallel. 

 "I understand what you're thinking, yes adding a driver doesn't extend it's ability in speed. But putting a driver by itself will lower it's ability in speed, you put a driver in series to reduce the load, you bring that ability in speed back to or closer to the drivers full potential."

 Once again your statement here actually shows where you're missing the point, you get the idea that reducing the load of the driver will result in it achieving more of its potential BUT, and the big BUT here is that you do not reduce the load simply by adding drivers (you do reduce resistance etc... ) you reduce the load by splitting the work to be done. And simply putting the drivers in series or in parallel, without splitting frequencies means that both drivers are actually taking ALL of the frequencies and working with them -there is no reduction in work.


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## piotrus-g

Pdupiano, honestly I cant follow your thinking.

 MaoDi said already that adding the driver is not going to double the speed of the driver, TWICE.
 Adding the driver in SERIES reduce amout of bass on second driver, since the driver in this circuit works simple as a resistor. Reducing amout of bass on second driver probably affects on driver's speed, because load is lower.


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## MaoDi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *piotrus-g* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Pdupiano, honestly I cant follow your thinking.

 MaoDi said already that adding the driver is not going to double the speed of the driver, TWICE.
 Adding the driver in SERIES reduce amout of bass on second driver, since the driver in this circuit works simple as a resistor. Reducing amout of bass on second driver probably affects on driver's speed, because load is lower._

 

I also said he didn't understand me twice, not saying it the third time. Simple lack of understand the difference in the way the drivers are reduced in load between in series and a crossover.

  Quote:


 simply putting the drivers in series or in parallel, without splitting frequencies means that both drivers are actually taking ALL of the frequencies and working with them -there is no reduction in work. 
 

taking all the frequencies (quantity), but not the whole load (magnitude). They are taking the whole frequency, but only half the load. Reduction in load, the faster the rebound time of the diaphragm, which in the nd increases speed. That's a simply way of understanding it.


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## pdupiano

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The SE530 has been testing for two months now, and has just finished. Sam has put a large amount of effort in to it, and since he's not a employee that is dedicated to making the monitors but rather with public relations but also one who specializes in tuning monitors, he's had all the time on his hands to work with the monitors. Companies take such a long time because they don't have a basis to follow, for example they come up with a design and strive for the most accurate, yet punchy bass along with a smooth rich mid with a great amount of detail in the high which is suitable for listeners and audiophiles. See the problem with this is there is so many sound signatures, and so many combinations to test it would take like you said months to test and finish. However, in this case it's rather much more narrowed down. But what i wanted generalized keep the SE530 signature, but with a much faster, much more accurate, and punchy low end with a great amount detail in the highs with a great high frequency extension. Keep the mids sounding as they are now (but it will indefinitely be faster and more accurate since it doesn't have to worry about the lows). That makes sense right? It eliminates the needs to improve or change the sound signature of how the overall presentation is suppose to sound as there is a basis/reference to go to already, the SE530. _

 

****Response below is pretty long, you've been warned*****
 That's the reason why I focused on speed. If you agree that speed isn't improved (just impact), then the design and work you put into the new se530's were for nothing. I reread the past 2 pages and caught the points where you stopped talking about speed and focused on impact in which case, negate what I've written. 

 Now focusing on reduced loading by reducing resistances, you have 2 scenarios
 1) Series
 Two drivers doubles the resistance. Lets say 10V source, 5 ohms each driver. Normally you have 10v across the driver with 2A running through. With the second driver, you have 10 ohms in series, 1A running through each driver gets 5V across each driver resulting in a lower load as you stated. If there's anything wrong with this scenario then anything below will be void. 
 ----
 Taking a look at the circuit we now see that there is a 5V drop across each driver, and the voltage swing has been reduced from 10V to 5V. This reduces the dynamics of the system. The voltage can't swing the full ten volts, it only has 5 volts of room to move around -so does the diaphragm. Here's the bad part, hearing is in terms of decibles correct? Something non-linear. So even if the change in the voltage swing and diaphragm appears to be 1/2, in terms of what we hear, we get something else. While the magnitude is cut in half, what we hear maybe more or less than 1/2 (due to the non-linearity of hearing). 
 Additionally, drivers are non-linear, meaning that their resistances change with respect to the frequency of the signal (check out the resistance graphs in headroom's site, you will notice that at different frequencies, the impedance of headphones changes). Because of the driver's non-linearity, when hooking up the drivers in series you will observe some sort of "lag" in the signal. This muddies up the sound (you may have one driver going "faster" than the other). But this might not be that big of an issue for lower frequencies, but it could be an issue for higher frequencies, which would explain why professional companies do not use multiple drivers in series for their highs. 
 Ultimately placing the drivers in series results in a decrease in clarity/details, one of your design objectives. As for bass impact, it would increase, but you end up with muddier bass. Addressing the issue of speed, you brought up the case that the diaphragm moves less and can therefore move faster back and forth. While this is true, I would then ask what aspect of a driver actually controls speed? Is it really how fast a driver moves back and forth? Or is it how quickly a driver can transition from one set of frequencies to another or how quickly it can respond to change. 

 The first possibility is that speed depends on how fast a driver moves back and forth. This isn't the case because any driver would have the capabilities of generating waves up to 16kHz, so the lower end range shouldn't have issues at all. What about how fast a driver can respond to change? When you hit a drum, you hear the initial impact and you hear the "ripples" in the sound waves as the sound continues to penetrate through. Think of the diaphragm in this way, as the BA pushes the diaphragm in one direction and back the other way it generates the desired frequency. Now if we stop the BA, any remaining energy would continue to move the diaphragm back and forth resulting additional waves that we hear. This is the unwanted excess, what we would characterize as slow. So I would define the speed of a driver to be based on this, the ability of the diaphragm to store and release excess energy. A driver is fast if it does not store excess energy (so it won't continue to produce sound after the signal dies), and a driver is slow if the driver continues to vibrate resulting in residual sound. Now I ask, is speed then a result of the signal going into the driver, or is it a result of the driver itself? My answer is that speed depends entirely on the driver itself. It is ultimately the material used that affects how much the driver will continue to vibrate long after the signal dies or transitions to some new frequency.

 After that little detour on defining speed, let's examine what we hear when we talk about speed. We are talking about transitions and changes in the sound. How quickly the drivers can keep up with that "rat tat tat" and the ongoing beat. I suggest that what we are looking for are drastic changes in the music, it goes back to the notion of dynamics. Take for example digital systems with 1's and 0's. Lets say that a computer system typically works with 5V is 1 and 0V is 0. Unfortunately, parasitic capacitances/resistances degenerate the signal down to say 3V for 1 and 2V for 0. Now instead of the computer getting a clear signal for 1 and 0, it has this odd signal filled with "maybe 1's and maybe 0's." Believe it or not, a lot of systems have this problem, and one of a circuit designer's jobs is to try and increase the difference between 1 and 0 so that the computer can easily differentiate between a 1 and a 0 as the signal passes for processing. Take for example a signal that goes 5-5-5-4-4-4-3.5-3.5-3.5-3-3-3-2-1-0-0-0. When does the computer take the value to be a 0? Is it at the voltage = 0? or perhaps 1? In this case the circuit designer works as hard as possible so that the signal propagates through the system with as little degradation as possible so that the computer sees something more like 5-5-5-4.5-4.5-4.5-1.5-1.5-1-1-0-0 We notice this big gap between 4.5V and 1.5V and the programmers can use that as the transition between 1 and 0. In this case, the computer performs as it should, because it doesn't have to play guessing games. 

 Just like that computer, when we hear sounds, we hear differences and transitions. But when a signal resembles another one, or when the magnitude changes by very little, we don't hear it at all or we just hear the original signal continue on. This is where we get this notion of speed, when we have big transitions, we notice it right away and the faster the transition the faster the driver seems to be working and we attribute this as speed. Now based on everything I've mentioned regarding placing drivers in series, there is no way to increase speed simply by adding drivers in series because the amount of lag, and degradation in clarity (Because you lose some of the dynamics due to the lower voltage swing), results in a pair of drivers that have a hard time portraying changes in your music. So instead of hearing a sharp transition, you end up hearing the muddy bass. At the end, simply placing the drivers in series affects impact and degrades everything else you were trying to accomplish.

 2)Parallel
 Using the same values as before, (10V source, 5ohms/driver) you end up with 2.5ohms in the circuit. That results in 4A in the total circuit, and 2A per iem with a voltage drop of 10V per iem. Notice that in this case, nothing changes from the original circuit of a single driver. The drivers do not see an impact in one another. 

 When attached in parallel, the drivers will be working at the same time and you will not notice any lag so it will preserve the clarity. You would also increase the overall impact, now that you have two drivers doing the work. But you do get some weird effects, and this time its not really the headphones that are affected, rather the headphone amp that you are using. Notice that in the case of parallel drivers, you are generating 4Amps, twice what it was before. So you are now draining your batteries twice as fast, furthermore as the the impedance changes with different frequencies of the signal, the amount of current you need from your amp can vary greatly requiring you to use a somewhat steady amplifier. 

 Also notice, the important aspect, that in the case of parallel drivers, you will get nothing more than increase "volume" and a lot of how much more impact you will get, will depend greatly on how the signals mix together through the acoustic tubing or shell and the ear canal.

 Notice that in either case, parallel or series, the speed is never affected and in fact I've demonstrated how a lot of your design objectives were negatively impacted by simply adding drivers. While it's definitely possible to benefit from multiple drivers, its often necessary to consider a wide range of variables that require extensive testing and design. This is the main reason why I kept on stating that I doubt UM would do all this for you for a mere 200, typing this out took me about an hour, so I figure actually testing and designing new techniques would take months.

 At this point I think it would be beneficial to go back to the analogy. When placing the drivers in series, you are giving the same amount of homework to the two kids, but what changes aren't the kids, or the amount of homework (the drivers still have to process the same amount of data), rather what changes is the difficulty of the homework. Say for example that the kids are in advanced algebra, but the homework they get is instead for regular or even remedial algebra. They work faster, even with the same amount of work because it is easier to do the homework (and it is easier for the drivers to drive the signal). But herein lies the problem, them doing the homework won't get them to learn the material they need to know, just as the driver is not reproducing what it needs to reproduce. The students forgo the details just as the drivers do. In the end, neither group does what they are supposed to and gloss over the details. 

 As far as the parallel analogy is concerned, this is the only case where the work remains the same and it is the students who change (just as the amp and power supply must change). Lets just say both students drink a can or two of red bull before tackling the problem.


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## piotrus-g

Thanks for your elaboration. Now I know what you were trying to say.

 As a speed I understand electrical response of the driver combined with how driver load and unload. To me it isn't just a single thing. There're few factors affecting.

 I haven't considered resonance of the diaphragm itself, so good point to add. Now imagine this: Resonance is greater if the deflection of diaphragm is greater, because diaphragm has more way to come up and down. If you wire drivers in series you have a reduced voltage on the second driver - first driver works as a resistor - this reduce bass load on the second driver (remember ER4P/S with cable attenuator) What does it mean? It mean that second driver's diaphragm doesn't have to deflect as much as the first. Going this way - resonance and load is reduced -> speed is increased even if the material and electrical response of the driver stays the same.
 So correct me if I'm wrong.

 Oh, and BTW:





 ER4P has lower impedance (27 Ohm) = slower bass response
 ER4S 100 Ohm = faster bass response


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## MaoDi

Your explanation is correct, however companies do use multiple drivers for their highs. As far as i know, JH Audio, and EarInc both use dual drivers for the high frequencies. Anyways back to the point. You stated that he speed of the driver doesn't work as how fast the driver can move back in forth, however in the case it's not completely wrong. Yes a BA driver can go up to 16kHz without a problem, even higher but at this frequency the diaphragm's movement is so small, there's near to no energy that drives the diaphragm to a position where it would be delayed for the high frequency wave.

 Low frequencies on the other hand is heard by the movement of air. The more air moved, the greater the impact. This is the biggest point of why we use drivers in series to reduce the load rather than split the frequencies with a crossover to each driver. BOth benefit, but in different ways. Say a kick drum signal is sent to the drivers. If we had one driver, the driver's diaphragm would have to move a certain distance from point flat to achieve the impact. We introduce another driver into the equation, we split the air needed to be moved to achieve the impact needed. Now, the diaphragm of the driver would only have to move a half the air as before since the other driver is moving the rest of the air needed to be moved. Which in the end increases the transition to the next signal needed to be reproduced.

 Now the benefit of using a crossover, or your thinking of reducing the load on the driver is to limit the driver to a specific spectrum. Yes this works also, the less frequencies the driver has to look after the more "ready" the driver is for the next signal. As say a driver now doesn't have to present frequencies like low-low-high mid-low mid-low, but rather say low-low-low-low- low etc... however say that same kick drum signal is sent to this driver. It doesn't matter that the frequency spectrum is reduced, it still has to work as hard as the driver that is taking low-mid compared to this driver who's just taking the lows. The magnitude of the signal still has to be reproduced the same way, the more the diaphragm moves to produce it the slower the transition to the next signal, the bigger the distortion. 

 That is why, like Jerry said a dual arm design is superior to the equivalent single arm. The problem with crossovers is that, our hearing spectrum is so low compared to sounds of nature that monitors only have to go from 20Hz-20kHz. A BA driver goes from 20Hz-16kHz without a problem. Meaning that, to cover the whole frequency we only need a two-way. We incorporate three-way crossovers to achieve the results that you were talking before, however the ability to hear the difference is one of the biggest issues. While there is no doubtfully a difference, and if done right superior the frequency spectrum of our hearing just isn't great enough for a dramatic difference that everyone can pick. We still incorporate it as, yes it would make the drivers work better and those born with perfect hearing will no doubtfully hear the difference.

 The multiple driver in series is easier to hear the difference on the other hand. It's not necessarily superior to the crossover way, but it's just more heard by the human hear unfortunately. It causes a bigger difference in speed compared to the crossover. The biggest difference is going from one driver to two driver, anything above that the human hear most likely won't be able to tell the difference.

 The best solution? include crossovers and in series designs into the monitor. In my case, a 3-way crossover which we know is more than enough t cove the frequency, and more than enough to reduce the frequency spectrum each driver has to look after to cause delay or distortion. Dual drivers on every split range to reduce the magnitude of the signal to each driver to prevent delay and distortion.


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## pdupiano

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *piotrus-g* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I haven't considered resonance of the diaphragm itself, so good point to add. Now imagine this: Resonance is greater if the deflection of diaphragm is greater, because diaphragm has more way to come up and down. If you wire drivers in series you have a reduced voltage on the second driver - first driver works as a resistor - this reduce bass load on the second driver (remember ER4P/S with cable attenuator) What does it mean? It mean that second driver's diaphragm doesn't have to deflect as much as the first. Going this way - resonance and load is reduced -> speed is increased even if the material and electrical response of the driver stays the same.
 So correct me if I'm wrong._

 

Sorry for the delayed response, but thank you for bringing up the headroom graph. First thing though, resonance is not affected by how much deflection there is in the driver. Rather it is resonance that causes greater amounts of deflection of the driver. This is caused by the inherent material properties. Take for example oscillators used in electronic circuits. We use certain crystals with different physical characteristics that will oscillate at a certain frequency. If we alter the geometry or the physical composition of the cyrstal, it will oscillate at that frequency. Resonance, for the most part is one of the biggest and hardest things to consider in all mechanical and electrical designs. So in the case you brought up above, let's just make it a little easier to see that resonance is not dependent on the deflection of the diaphragm rather the diaphragm material and other mechanical properties of a driver. You state that two drivers placed in series would result in reducing the voltage (I'll refrain from using the word load as I think we've demonstrated it has too many meanings that can cause great amounts of confusion) and current passing through the driver. This would then result in a decreased movement in the driver, and therefore reduce resonance in the system. Now I ask you, what would happen if you lowered the volume? Do you not do the same thing? Don't you reduce the voltage and current to the driver? But does this reduce resonance in the system -unfortunately it does not. 

 Resonance is a big consideration, and its one of the main reasons that any Truly good speaker is constructed using glue and all materials are bonded together rather than connected using nails or screws. Every piece of material has a resonant frequency and one of the biggest problems with all mechanical constructions are use of screws, nuts and bolts. These materials, will oscillate under certain conditions causing them to vibrate, loosen and eventually come off. I remember that one of the most common examples are walking over a bridge. If a series of soldiers have to cross a bridge, they are told to "not march in sync." Because if they were to march in sync, they could potentially cause mechanical reverberations that would cause parts of the bridge to oscillate and fall off. So every piece of material affects the resonant frequency of the system. So let's say you have a pair of headphones put together using screws and a pair of headphones put together using glue. A pair of headphones put together using screws will have various resonant frequencies for every piece of material in the headphone. The two pieces of the headphone joined together with the screw will each have a resonant frequency and the screw itself will have a resonant frequency. On the other hand, the headphone put together using glue, will have only 1 resonant frequency for all 3 pieces of material. This example stands out to me because it is how grado designs their headphones. In fact John Grado spoke about this when he spoke about the construction of the GS1000's. The same is true for speakers, by using glue and sealing everything together, speaker designers reduce the amount of resonant frequencies in the system. Another common example, are "rattling" noises you hear in a car, that are dampened by dynamat or some other tar based material. It isn't that the material magically takes away the resonant frequency of whatever is rattling in your car, instead it changes the resonance frequency, perhaps to a range that is inaudible to us. 

 As for the graph, I've included this 





 Pay attention to what I have circled. This is what we should pay attention to when it comes to speed. Look at the amount of deflection for the ER4S versus the ER4p. We notice that the S has greater deflection as the waveform changes. This is what I was talking about earlier with respect to transience. The greater the impedance, the bigger the deflection. While this ultimately gives you that greater bass impact, it does reduce the "speed" of the headphones and it muddies up the bass.


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## pdupiano

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Your explanation is correct, however companies do use multiple drivers for their highs. As far as i know, JH Audio, and EarInc both use dual drivers for the high frequencies. Anyways back to the point. You stated that he speed of the driver doesn't work as how fast the driver can move back in forth, however in the case it's not completely wrong. Yes a BA driver can go up to 16kHz without a problem, even higher but at this frequency the diaphragm's movement is so small, there's near to no energy that drives the diaphragm to a position where it would be delayed for the high frequency wave.

 Low frequencies on the other hand is heard by the movement of air. The more air moved, the greater the impact. This is the biggest point of why we use drivers in series to reduce the load rather than split the frequencies with a crossover to each driver. BOth benefit, but in different ways. Say a kick drum signal is sent to the drivers. If we had one driver, the driver's diaphragm would have to move a certain distance from point flat to achieve the impact. We introduce another driver into the equation, we split the air needed to be moved to achieve the impact needed. Now, the diaphragm of the driver would only have to move a half the air as before since the other driver is moving the rest of the air needed to be moved. Which in the end increases the transition to the next signal needed to be reproduced.

 Now the benefit of using a crossover, or your thinking of reducing the load on the driver is to limit the driver to a specific spectrum. Yes this works also, the less frequencies the driver has to look after the more "ready" the driver is for the next signal. As say a driver now doesn't have to present frequencies like low-low-high mid-low mid-low, but rather say low-low-low-low- low etc... however say that same kick drum signal is sent to this driver. It doesn't matter that the frequency spectrum is reduced, it still has to work as hard as the driver that is taking low-mid compared to this driver who's just taking the lows. The magnitude of the signal still has to be reproduced the same way, the more the diaphragm moves to produce it the slower the transition to the next signal, the bigger the distortion. 

 That is why, like Jerry said a dual arm design is superior to the equivalent single arm. The problem with crossovers is that, our hearing spectrum is so low compared to sounds of nature that monitors only have to go from 20Hz-20kHz. A BA driver goes from 20Hz-16kHz without a problem. Meaning that, to cover the whole frequency we only need a two-way. We incorporate three-way crossovers to achieve the results that you were talking before, however the ability to hear the difference is one of the biggest issues. While there is no doubtfully a difference, and if done right superior the frequency spectrum of our hearing just isn't great enough for a dramatic difference that everyone can pick. We still incorporate it as, yes it would make the drivers work better and those born with perfect hearing will no doubtfully hear the difference.

 The multiple driver in series is easier to hear the difference on the other hand. It's not necessarily superior to the crossover way, but it's just more heard by the human hear unfortunately. It causes a bigger difference in speed compared to the crossover. The biggest difference is going from one driver to two driver, anything above that the human hear most likely won't be able to tell the difference.

 The best solution? include crossovers and in series designs into the monitor. In my case, a 3-way crossover which we know is more than enough t cove the frequency, and more than enough to reduce the frequency spectrum each driver has to look after to cause delay or distortion. Dual drivers on every split range to reduce the magnitude of the signal to each driver to prevent delay and distortion._

 


 The issue I have with the drivers in series, is that you increase the chances of deconstructive wave interferences therefore reducing that clarity, detail, and "flat" or nice shaped frequency response. Instead you get your traditional frequency response, but with spikes and notches where the soundwaves interfere with one another (constructively and destructively). Frequency separation on the other hand would be "specializing" each driver. Now I understand that there are currently no specialize drivers for certain frequencies, but there are drivers that excel at particular frequencies and can therefore do a better job than others for certain ranges. Additionally, having more drivers allows you to shape the frequency response as you see fit. As of right now with a 3 cross over design, you would have 3 points on the frequency spectrum to modulate, with 6 driver cross over you would have 6 and be able to shape the frequency responses more accurately. The easiest way I can explain this would be to take a look at certain equalizers. In the first case of the 3 cross over design, you would take 20-20khz, break it up into 3 pieces and have a knob to control the loudness of each frequency. In the other case, you would have 6 and therefore be able to do more. 

 As for the ability of hearing, I really can't make too many comments on this, since it isn't my specialty and lack the background in "average" listening capabilities. I think many of us already overlook our hearing as it is. I mean just take for example a person who gets blurry vision one day and goes to the doctor the next, versus a person who loses part of their hearing and just asks people to speak a little louder for the rest of their life. One of the benefits of listening to hifi is being able to pick out those differences, and being classically trained, you also hear certain nuances to the music that your "average" listener fails to comprehend.... then again I highly doubt your "average" listener would drop more than a hundred or so on a pair of headphones.


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## MaoDi

It would increase chances of interference by the smallest margin. Both drivers are producing the same frequency, so in theory two of the same exact signal won't interfere with each other. The only point i can see that could affect the interference is the manufacturing differences that could occur, however even this is a extremely small amount. 

 Like i said, crossover is beneficial but doesn't reduce the distortion of the driver in terms of magnitude. If a strong signal (like mentioned say a hard kick drum beat), that driver still has to work that hard to produce that signal. It'll reduce the distortion from the driver having to worry about too wide of freq. spectrum though.

 Yes it would also allow us to shape the sound frequency to a more precise measurement, and would also alloow us to bump different parts of the frequency at more detail. But to be honest, if you really can't achieve the sound you desire with a two-way or three way crossver (four would be pushing it), then the sound signature you are looking for must be extremely unique.

 There's always that average listener that buys high-end earphones just because they have to have the best, instead of actually being able to appreciate it. I see Se530's throughout my whole school, and some SF5 pros on the bus all the time. But they are around the ages of 15, and 95% of them run these top-tier unis from an iPod shuffle or a MP3 player they picked up in China for $30. The other 5% i associate and chat with, while these fellows run their top-tiers from amped sources.


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## pdupiano

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It would increase chances of interference by the smallest margin. Both drivers are producing the same frequency, so in theory two of the same exact signal won't interfere with each other. The only point i can see that could affect the interference is the manufacturing differences that could occur, however even this is a extremely small amount. _

 

It's not that small of an amount, and that's probably the reason why we're divided in the issue. I'm not talking about mismatches in the drivers, I'm talking about how the soundwaves come out of a driver and interact with one another. Just look at how drivers are normally placed side by side. Its akin to having speakers side by side and imagining the soundwaves propagating through the air. As they do, they will constructively and deconstructively interfere with one another. That's my main issue and concern with using stuff in series. On the otherhand, using them with some form of crossover would eliminate/reduce this problem. The worst part of it all is, the acoustic tubing towards the ear canal, and the empty spaces in the earpiece are all unaccounted for. That's the main reason why I also kept on pointing out the amount of work needed to actually design these iems. Universal iem's are somewhat easy since you can control this to a certain extent. Custom molds on the other hand can be a bit tricky and is once again the main reason why I worry greatly about any companies that show you frequency responses of a custom driver -either they're just flat out lying to you or are going to charge you a great deal of money to do the work (for a one of a kind iem). 

 The comment regarding single driver distortion is disturbing because why would you use a driver if it is inherently problematic? There are a wide range of drivers that you can chose from today, and each one has certain strengths. Using a crossover design allows you to use their strengths, so what you're describing as the single-driver distortion is a moot point. 

 As I've mentioned before, if you want to design an iem that truly represents what the human ear would hear, then it can't be a flat response. I wish I knew what the frequency response looked like, but I'm afraid I haven't gotten to that point yet. But knowing the basics, there is a minimum of 3 required cross overs (due to the different sensitivities of our hearing to lows, mids, and highs). That's the minimum. 4 or higher is just a refinement and should be the standard for so called high end iems.


----------



## MaoDi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pdupiano* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's not that small of an amount, and that's probably the reason why we're divided in the issue. I'm not talking about mismatches in the drivers, I'm talking about how the soundwaves come out of a driver and interact with one another. Just look at how drivers are normally placed side by side. Its akin to having speakers side by side and imagining the soundwaves propagating through the air. As they do, they will constructively and deconstructively interfere with one another. That's my main issue and concern with using stuff in series. On the otherhand, using them with some form of crossover would eliminate/reduce this problem. The worst part of it all is, the acoustic tubing towards the ear canal, and the empty spaces in the earpiece are all unaccounted for. That's the main reason why I also kept on pointing out the amount of work needed to actually design these iems. Universal iem's are somewhat easy since you can control this to a certain extent. Custom molds on the other hand can be a bit tricky and is once again the main reason why I worry greatly about any companies that show you frequency responses of a custom driver -either they're just flat out lying to you or are going to charge you a great deal of money to do the work (for a one of a kind iem). 

 The comment regarding single driver distortion is disturbing because why would you use a driver if it is inherently problematic? There are a wide range of drivers that you can chose from today, and each one has certain strengths. Using a crossover design allows you to use their strengths, so what you're describing as the single-driver distortion is a moot point. 

 As I've mentioned before, if you want to design an iem that truly represents what the human ear would hear, then it can't be a flat response. I wish I knew what the frequency response looked like, but I'm afraid I haven't gotten to that point yet. But knowing the basics, there is a minimum of 3 required cross overs (due to the different sensitivities of our hearing to lows, mids, and highs). That's the minimum. 4 or higher is just a refinement and should be the standard for so called high end iems._

 

You might've mistaken but two outputs that are identical don't interfere or cancel each other out. Yes, if they overlap, the sound waves themselves might cause a bit of "mixing", but it's definitely not large enough to be a "interference". Your thinking of the physical soundwaves themselves affecting each other is a true fact, but it's not large enough to "interfere" with each other. Infact they can benefit from each other, for example. In an Isobaric Subwoofer, the two drivers are facing each other directly, and their outputs are shot right against the other. 

 Secondly, BA's don't work the same as dynamics. Dynamics require a extremely large amount of air to work, while BA's only use a little. Doesn't matter how big your ears are, there's always going to be enough for the BA drivers. So that shoots down the problems with the "size" or "air" in the custom shells. Thirdly, not sure what you are trying to say about the sound bores, but all companies use a specific length for each driver as the length of the acoustic tube does affect the sound (like you mentioned). All custom IEM companies take this into account for already. 

 All drivers distort to a certain extent when they reach a certain magnitude of power or speed. Whether it be the greatest driver or not. It's not a moot point, if it was useless then we wouldn't have company's putting drivers in series all the same. 

 There's no "minimum" of crossover. You're thinking for this part isn't conclusive. The theory just would just label any IEM on the market today as "low-end" cause they don't have a 4-way or more crossover. As far as i know, some of th emost superior BA IEM's don't even make it to a 4-way. A BA driver can take a frequency spectrum of 5Hz-17kHz without a problem, that itself is lower than what humans can here, and near to all the high frequencies we can hear already.

 But hey, what can you say. I'm enjoying this convo, just proves that we are no ordinary head-fier and sooner or later we're going to be crafting top-tier custom IEM's in our basements. I'm sure a 6 driver, 6-way crossover with adjustable frequency volume, would be fantastic but i'm gonna think there's too many things to fit in that little shell. 6 little tiny knobs, with double the amount of capacitors, resistors, and inductors.


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There's no "minimum" of crossover. You're thinking for this part isn't conclusive. The theory just would just label any IEM on the market today as "low-end" cause they don't have a 4-way or more crossover. As far as i know, some of th emost superior BA IEM's don't even make it to a 4-way. A BA driver can take a frequency spectrum of 5Hz-17kHz without a problem, that itself is lower than what humans can here, and near to all the high frequencies we can hear already._

 

Kinda true, like Eric from Sonion said 2 ways can be perceived as a better sounding earpiece than 3 or 4 ways. 2 ways-design is enough to have a big, fair sound.


----------



## piotrus-g

Damn! I'm affraid my package got stolen or lost 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Its been like 2 working weeks since I have sent my drivers and impressions... It was supposed to arrive in 6-8 days. Fortunately I insured it.
 But I'd have to get TWFK again


----------



## MaoDi

It might be on it's way back to you. People in China can barely read English, that happened to one of my UM packages. They said the address doesn't exist...riiiiight. More like you can't read....


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It might be on it's way back to you. People in China can barely read English, that happened to one of my UM packages. They said the address doesn't exist...riiiiight. More like you can't read...._

 

Arrrr. Another waisted time.


----------



## GiuseppeItalia

i all, this is my first post in this forum, i'm Giuseppe from Italy, sorry for my bad English. I would like to give you my contribute to discussion. I'm an audiologist, so my work is help people to better hearing, but just for fun and in my free time, i'm interested in IEMs. I think we can join our experience for realize the best IEM in the world. A lot of interesting topics are been discussed, but little has been said about the functioning of the ear, the resonant frequencies of the ear canal, as the distance from the eardrum influence the amplification.....
 Really, i think there's not the perfect IEM for all, but i'm sure it's possible to make the perfect IEM for each one of us......psychoacoustics.
 P.s.:just to let you know, i have all you can need to realize IEMs.
 Bye.


----------



## MaoDi

Frequencies chart for the SE6X3 and TF18X3 (18 cause the new UE-18 is 6 drivers 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ) 

 Specs for both are rather similar. Sensitivity are both approx 110dB/mW, frequency response for SE6X3 is 18Hz-20kHz, TF18X3 is 10Hz-20kHz. Not that it really matters that much as both have frequency responses that goes above and below the average hearing. 

 SE6X3






 TF18X3


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GiuseppeItalia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i all, this is my first post in this forum, i'm Giuseppe from Italy, sorry for my bad English. I would like to give you my contribute to discussion. I'm an audiologist, so my work is help people to better hearing, but just for fun and in my free time, i'm interested in IEMs. I think we can join our experience for realize the best IEM in the world. A lot of interesting topics are been discussed, but little has been said about the functioning of the ear, the resonant frequencies of the ear canal, as the distance from the eardrum influence the amplification.....
 Really, i think there's not the perfect IEM for all, but i'm sure it's possible to make the perfect IEM for each one of us......psychoacoustics.
 P.s.:just to let you know, i have all you can need to realize IEMs.
 Bye._

 

Ok this is great! Because audiotronics (european distributor for Sonion) are from Italy. We could save on shipping I'd just paypal you for the drivers or something. And there'll be no tax in EU 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I need to get down to my Sonions designs after exams at Univeristy.

 Also I know Italian a bit (like intermediate level) so if you coundn't say some thing in English I'd probably understand


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Frequencies chart for the SE6X3 and TF18X3 (18 cause the new UE-18 is 6 drivers 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ) 

 Specs for both are rather similar. Sensitivity are both approx 110dB/mW, frequency response for SE6X3 is 18Hz-20kHz, TF18X3 is 10Hz-20kHz. Not that it really matters that much as both have frequency responses that goes above and below the average hearing. _

 

frankly I like TF18x3 they seem to be more linear.
 SE6x3 don't look so well at highs. God they must be bright sounding just in oposite to stock SE530. Like the extention at 15kHz, this is like wow!


----------



## piotrus-g

Take a close look on new UE18 pro, they are equipped with proprietary dual-driver-dual-bore speakers. Finally someone hit on this idea. Btw. UE18 looks totally awsome inside :O


----------



## MaoDi

dual driver dual bore? the UE18 has 3 bores for the 6 drivers. The UE18 uses two dual element, and two drivers glued together top to top.


----------



## MaoDi

Not sure what the big obsession with a linear response is, but all i can say is that a linear response means a totally boring and lifeless presentation to the human ear. I'm sure both will be more than fantastic, Also not sure what you mean they don't look so well in highs as the TF18X3 only brings the highs up +1dB compared to the SE6X3. But the mids of the Se530 are kept, and the highs are definitely have a large increase in performance.


----------



## piotrus-g

All right, by linear I meant smooth *not* necessarily *flat*. IMO it's better when the frequency response is smooth rather than sharp. The more(or)higher peaks (i.e. 6kHz SE6x3) the more harsh sounding earphone.

 Ok, I didn't say it precisely, by "highs" I meant 5-7kHz in this case. So I rather should have said higher mids. They might be too prominent. Too forward sounding and very very loud. Higher mids are more pronounced than Mages, aren't they?

 I really appreciate TF18x3 20Hz to 15kHz +- 10dB it's really something!


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_and two drivers glued together top to top._

 

Yeah, but it acts like a normal dual driver - reduced vibrations but less sound distorsions since it has two separate sound outputs


----------



## MaoDi

According to Sam, and with my personal experience just looking at the frequency chart the large bump in the upper mids isn't going to sound harsh. The sound signature is kept the same, meaning a warm and smooth sounding signature. As long as the signature isn't too bright (which it isn't) the large peak isn't going to sound harsh.

 The TF18X3 will go lower than 20Hz and higher than 15kHz. On Sam's tests, which is limited to 20-20, both monitors maxed out in the lows and nearly touch or touched the 20k mark. . The reason is because both monitors go lower than 20Hz (the DTEC and the TF10 low can both easily go below 20Hz with a output of 115dB), and the highs are around 20Hz. The TF18X3 should go lower than the SE530 a tad as Sonion drivers tend to have a more satisfying and responsive low-end. That is why the close estimates for the SE6X3 is about 18Hz-20kHz while it's 10Hz-20kHz for the TF18X3. 

  Quote:


 Yeah, but it acts like a normal dual driver - reduced vibrations but less sound distorsions since it has two separate sound outputs 
 

Not really going to make a difference. Both drivers share the same bore, meaning that sounds mix as soon as it passes the soundport of the BA drivers. That's about 1mm of difference. The downside of having dual soundports is that you must first insert a small piece of tubing/casing which joins the two soundports to the soundbore. Meaning it adds more volume, and more work to making the monitors.


----------



## piotrus-g

omg unfortynately I recieved this info:
 "Hi peter,
 Sorry to reply you late.your package has arrived .but we cannot provide the service according to you design unless you pay extra cost.it cost about usd 200(resell and shipping back is not include)"
 I wonder what's wrong with my design. It looks like they want to add drivers, which I don't want. I want to keep costs down. Come on! These are W3 drivers, why they can't?!


----------



## piotrus-g

"Hi peter,
 We only remolding the products according to our technical standard
 Parameter.hope you can understand that.please tell us what potion you choose.we offer you favorable price usd 200 for your design by yourself.we also design new products to custom by others requirement ,it cost usd usd usd 600."
 That's not fair... they said 90 buck now its 200! or 600... Great.


----------



## GiuseppeItalia

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Not sure what the big obsession with a linear response is, but all i can say is that a linear response means a totally boring and lifeless presentation to the human ear._

 

I fully agree with MaoDi.
 How can the perfect transmitter be developed without knowing all imperfections of the receiver? In other words, how can one develop the perfect sound system without a study of the human ears characteristics? We invite you to do a small experiment; play a wellknown and high quality music track at a sound level of about 80dB. Play it a few times, listen critically, and adjust your tone controls for best sound quality and tone balance. Now boost the volume to about 100dB (make sure that you don't exceed the limits of your system) You will notice a change of tone balance, and you will be tempted to make small changes in your tone settings... 

 Now what is causing this phenomenon?

 The answer lies in human ears imperfections. Off cause, the human hearing curve can be measured and plotted. This is normally done at reasonable low levels, for example to check for the need of wearing hearing devices. But when we repeat these measurements at higher sound levels, and plot the lines of equal loudness, we will see that higher sound levels produce a different curve. In 1933(!) the first scientific research in this field was done by Mr. Fletcher and Mr. Munson. In 1937 they mapped the hearing curves over a wide area of sound levels. Although more recent research produced slightly different curves, and some assumptions had to be re-adjusted, these scientists really produced good data and a solid base for future research. Therefore we would like to credit these guys by using their names for this phenomenon. In 1956 two other researchers, Mr. Robinson and Mr. Dadson mapped slightly different curves thanks to their more accurate equipment. The Robinson Dadson curves are therefore accepted and adapted by the International Standards Organisation as the basis for ISO 226:187; Normal Equal-Loudness Level Contours. (ELCC)

 Conclusion so far:

 Our human ear is far from linear, dynamically speaking, especially in the low frequency and high-mid frequency regions.
 Fletcher Munson

 Fletcher Munson diagram. For us, the area of interest lies between the 80 and 120 dB curves.


----------



## piotrus-g

Grazie Mile 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 I saw something similar at Etymotic website. From what I noticed when I use my PFE's I like to listen it at 24/50 on my D2. At this particular volume LF sound really good, but when I listen at 15/50 they lack LF.

 Now here's a little bit of update from the UM:
*Remolding service: $159* shipping ww included
*Own design: $200 + $159* shipped
*ES3x or other brand design: $359* shipped
*UM special desing: $600* not sure if remolding service is included in price

 Giuseppe, I'd love to try our gatherd forces in my Sonion designs, are you interested? Se voglia, spedisci mi un PM


----------



## MaoDi

Welcome to 6 driver fantasy. Purple is TF-18 Pro, Blue is SE6X3.

 TF-18 Pro (6 driver TF10)

















 SE6X3 (6 Driver Se530)


----------



## piotrus-g

Me want sound impressions! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 these are beuties!
 These 6 drivers barely fit the shell. I can't wait for my customs 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Have I said before light blue' are amazing 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




?


----------



## MaoDi

They are amazingly built. Once again, top quality from UM. There's actually still quite a bit of room in there. But yes, my ears are smaller (hey what do you expect for my age), so the drivers do seem to "fill up? the space a bit.

 Just gonna give them a quick burn in, just to let everything fall together better. Lots of new stuff in. Impressions will be up pretty soon. So far though, quick listen. My words are "Bring it on UE and JH, i'm sure my 6's can stand up to your 6's. "


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_"Bring it on UE and JH, i'm sure my 6's can stand up to your 6's. "_

 

Big words in fact


----------



## MaoDi

If you got to listen, i'm sure you would say the same


----------



## piotrus-g

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f103/d...a-here-466222/ this is something related to our thread, it might help.


----------



## MaoDi

interesting. I would use something that's stiff rather than silicone for the mold. Something like ultra glue or something. Coat the impression in shortening, and mold away. Then later fix in the tubing, and fill it up with silicone. I think it would be a much cleaner job. But hey, who knows. No one's tried it yet.


----------



## MaoDi

Ok so to start off. Both monitors are really really fast. They easily outclass all my monitors in terms of speed. Running them with a high-end source, the soundstage for both is wide wide wide and tall tall. It just sounds like you're sitting in a reference room with speakers surrounding you. 

 The TF18 first. Using the UE700 driver as the highs (i'm sure the TWFK will sound just as nice), the highs are crystal clear, with a fantastic tone to it. It's no longer the irritating high frequencies that many people find in UE, really crisp, clean high frequency response with lots of detail. The decay is just perfect as cymbals fade out absolutely perfectly. Mid-range...yup you probably guessed it that giant chunk is finally filled in. All i can say is, basically the mids are what the JH10X3 has, but more refined, quicker, with better accuracy. Wonder if this is what the JH13 sounds like? Lows are deep (deeper than the UE11), quick and punchy. The signature is still like the TF10, but it's much quicker, with a quicker and more powerful impact. 

 Overall, the TF18 is less than neutral, and offers a perfect sound for audiophile listeners, and touring artists. 

 The SE6X#, what can i say but it sounds like a Se530 on Steroids. To begin with, the really warm sound signature is slightly brightened up to offer a overall crisper and cleaner sound signature. Highs are now dominated with a TWFK driver (ok fine, i cheated i got a proprietary driver here as well. But like the UE700, this proprietary is also a TWFK alternate). So all the highs you want is now in the SE530, the highs aren't as dominant in the SE6X3 compared to the TF-18, but think of a Mage, turn down the brightness a little. That is what you are getting, plus more details, and more refinement. Mid-range is basically the SE530s but quicker, and cleaner. (on the frequency chart, the mid-range is actually put even closer than the stcok SE530, but because there's more highs and lows now, it evens it out) Lows...haha. Nope it's not that warm, messy stuff that many of you think the SE530 has anymore. The dual low drivers will brings the frequency response down to 10Hz (got them checked out at a local audio equipment store...but hey most of us can't hear it to 10Hz anyways. I can, but i only know that cause of a hearing test.) Impact, Punch, Decay, Tone are all very well defined in the lows of the SE6X3. It may not be as powerful as the TF18, but it's more controlled and has a faster decay so the punch is more like a ninja jumping out and punching you then running away rather than buff picking you up and punching you in the gut (ok that's probably one of the worst similes ever).

 The SE6X3 if very fun to listen to, but this is a far more suitable monitor for studio recording, sound engineers, and on-stage monitorng for vocalists, and guitarist.


----------



## mike_hell

nice review maodi..
 its good to hear that all of them sound better than the original..
 so all of them sound better than ue11?

 is there any news about w3 remould+3 driver?

 thanx


----------



## MaoDi

Both the SE6X3 and TF-18 Pro sound better than the UE11. Asked Sam about that, he said UM doesn't offer that. Maybe in the future?


----------



## charlie0904

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Both the SE6X3 and TF-18 Pro sound better than the UE11. Asked Sam about that, he said UM doesn't offer that. Maybe in the future?_

 

UM3X?


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mike_hell* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_w3 remould+3 driver?_

 

There's rather no place for dual CI next dual-driver and TWFK. Frankly I'll be possible to fit 5 drivers dual low CI mids and TWFK. I placed new pricing from UM such a design would cost probably like $600.


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Overall, the TF18 is less than neutral, and offers a perfect sound for audiophile listeners, and touring artists. 

 The SE6X3 if very fun to listen to, but this is a far more suitable monitor for studio recording, sound engineers, and on-stage monitorng for vocalists, and guitarist._

 

You sounded like a pro sales manager 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 But I think this is really helpful. It tells the overall sound signature of earphones.
 I'd die to hear both monitors 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 One question: did both of IEMs turn out for less $ than Ue11. If yes then Ue are in trouble


----------



## Bilavideo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_They are amazingly built. Once again, top quality from UM. There's actually still quite a bit of room in there. But yes, my ears are smaller (hey what do you expect for my age), so the drivers do seem to "fill up? the space a bit.

 Just gonna give them a quick burn in, just to let everything fall together better. Lots of new stuff in. Impressions will be up pretty soon. So far though, quick listen. My words are "Bring it on UE and JH, i'm sure my 6's can stand up to your 6's. "_

 

I totally agree. The whole point of this thread is that you can make your own IEMs. You don't have to rely on the special skills of a manufacturer, especially when that manufacturer is just taking the same off-the-shelf drivers and simply packaging them with its name on them. Now, some will say they're not "off-the-shelf" but custom. However, custom is just "made to order." It's not necessarily better. If KA or Sonion could make a better driver, neither would waste any time marketing it as the cure for cancer. Any manufacturer can claim it uses "custom" drivers by simply ordering an off-the-shelf driver and demanding minimal tweaks, if any, and demanding it be given its own proprietary name.


----------



## MaoDi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *piotrus-g* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There's rather no place for dual CI next dual-driver and TWFK. Frankly I'll be possible to fit 5 drivers dual low CI mids and TWFK. I placed new pricing from UM such a design would cost probably like $600._

 

My ears are small, but dual CI plus dual TWFK isn't a problem as all. 

  Quote:


 One question: did both of IEMs turn out for less $ than Ue11 
 

Using a brand new earphone plus the remold service, both monitors cost less than the UE7. You buy second hand or ebay SE530's of TF10, you're looking at 6 driver monitors that cost less than the UE5. 

  Quote:


 I totally agree. The whole point of this thread is that you can make your own IEMs. You don't have to rely on the special skills of a manufacturer, especially when that manufacturer is just taking the same off-the-shelf drivers and simply packaging them with its name on them. Now, some will say they're not "off-the-shelf" but custom. However, custom is just "made to order." It's not necessarily better. If KA or Sonion could make a better driver, neither would waste any time marketing it as the cure for cancer. Any manufacturer can claim it uses "custom" drivers by simply ordering an off-the-shelf driver and demanding minimal tweaks, if any, and demanding it be given its own proprietary name. 
 

Well to admit, the best i would say is to rely on the "assembly" part of the monitor. I'd say if you've got all the crossover material you need at your home, just soldering it all together (with a reasonable amount of wiring from the x-over to the driver), and then send it off to someone to get them shelled together.


----------



## Bilavideo

I just want to take a moment to thank all of you who have contributed, and who continue to contribute, to this thread. It was my hope, back at the beginning, that this thread would not die - and it hasn't. In fact, MaoDi's homemade earphones were pushing the envelope before UE announced its latest attempt to keep up with JH (Lots of luck there).

 I remain interested in coming up with a kitchen-sink process to house the phones, so they don't have to be sent away to UM. Recently, I've been drawn back into the world of full-sized headphones but I hope to be back here soon. I truly believe that, without the overhead and weight of a business enterprise, we have the freedom and agility to outperform the big guns. With eight drivers per shell, JH is clearly using economies of scale to get his drivers at the right price. But even without it, the markup would be attractive if you could manage the labor of soldering together all those drivers. I suspect that the TWFK (or similar "dual" drivers) is making all this possible. With $400 worth of drivers, you have the engine for a $1,200 pair of earphones. There's a little bit more to it than that, mind you, but if your greatest expense is the $400 in drivers, the profit margin is definitely attractive.


----------



## piotrus-g

Agreed.
 All I know is that my next attempt will be at least 6 drivers


----------



## MaoDi

Also agreed, i've been thinking how to get the shells made at home but i thought i would get all the innards figured out first (since we're all going for sound right?), so i've figured out two options with the SE530 and the TF10. I'm waiting on my Sonion drivers, i had to send out a money order, but it seems like it was lost. Just waiting for them to get back to me. 

 I'm thinking of 6 and 8 driver designs. Since even a 8 driver design that's home-made costs significantly less than any other competing models out there, it's definitely worth a try. 

 For the shells, i'm still thinking of getting it made with Acrylic. It's just a easy, durable, and not messy material to work with. Now where to get this material, is a difference story.


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Now where to get this material, is a difference story._

 

Earplugs, Impression Material and Hearing Aid Batteries - Shop Precision Laboratories hope this helps


----------



## MaoDi

That's just for impressions though. needing a material to make the shell.s


----------



## gore.rubicon

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's just for impressions though. needing a material to make the shell.s_

 

So the part that goes in the ear made from the impressions?


----------



## MaoDi

Yes


----------



## gore.rubicon

Can you vacuum form the impressions to form negatives and then pour acrylic in them?


----------



## MaoDi

Sure, You'd have to find a pretty powerful vacuum to make something that detailed. I'm thinking of using clear, hard material to mold the impressions. Then coat the mold with a like lubricant, then pour acrylic resin (which i still can't find) and cure it.


----------



## gore.rubicon

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sure, You'd have to find a pretty powerful vacuum to make something that detailed. I'm thinking of using clear, hard material to mold the impressions. Then coat the mold with a like lubricant, then pour acrylic resin (which i still can't find) and cure it._

 

Do you have something like a Michaels on the west coast? (crafts store) they sell acrylic resin.


----------



## MaoDi

do they? I've got a Michael's near by. But i want stuff that cures super hard, not something the cures soft like acrylic paint.


----------



## gore.rubicon

Its something like Castin Craft EasyCast Clear Casting Epoxy 16 Ounce Kit

 tho im not 100% that stuff is safe for prolonged contact...


----------



## skoog5600

Not sure if I should post this here, so putting it here and the UM custom appreciation thread ... 

 MaoDi, you running these out of a portable amp? And if so, what are you using? The reason why I am asking is that I've got the pico slim portable amp on order to drive my Shure 530s ... and then for a later spring project and send the Shure 530s to UM have custom molds and drivers added. Your thoughts, actually anyone's thoughts for that matter?

 skoog


----------



## aj-kun

Purple is TF-18 Pro, Blue is SE6X3.
 so which one is feral and which one is pacify? xD


----------



## GiuseppeItalia

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *piotrus-g* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Giuseppe, I'd love to try our gatherd forces in my Sonion designs, are you interested? Se voglia, spedisci mi un PM 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

Piotrus let me know your idea.
 Anyway i believe in a good mix between ka and sonion.


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GiuseppeItalia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Piotrus let me know your idea.
 Anyway i believe in a good mix between ka and sonion._

 

I've sent you PM already, like yesterday or two days ago so if you didn't get it I'll send you again.

 Sonion + KA is a good idea, but I have only 2x CI22955 right now from KA, except two WBHC which is 120 Ohms so it's not so good, and one stock TWFK driver.
 I have few StarMicronics drivers (ER6i) which will be good to analitical and very detailed earphone design (but It's not my aim)

 My first design I'd like to have full Sonion design, then I could make KA+Sonion and then we could try SM+Sonion or KA.

 Frankly I have a bunch of design in my mind but I'd ready to commit it to paper next month (as I said I have exams at University right now).


----------



## GiuseppeItalia

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *piotrus-g* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've sent you PM already, like yesterday or two days ago so if you didn't get it I'll send you again.

 Sonion + KA is a good idea, but I have only 2x CI22955 right now from KA, except two WBHC which is 120 Ohms so it's not so good, and one stock TWFK driver.
 I have few StarMicronics drivers (ER6i) which will be good to analitical and very detailed earphone design (but It's not my aim)

 My first design I'd like to have full Sonion design, then I could make KA+Sonion and then we could try SM+Sonion or KA.

 Frankly I have a bunch of design in my mind but I'd ready to commit it to paper next month (as I said I have exams at University right now)._

 

Piotrus, I just read your PM.
 Sorry again for my english.
 i can help you with shells and wire your parts.
 6 or more drivers are for me just marketing.
 4 good drivers well chosen and a good crossover are more than enough for an excellent IEMS, but this is just my opinion.
 We can have fun doing iems with 20 drivers, but we must ask why
 Humans haven't elephant ears, space is limited and the frequency range remains the same as well as the hearing pain threshold. To drive a Ferrari at 300km/h you need the right road.
 We always keep in mind that we can work on others variables as the length of the ear canal influence dBSPL (a driver at 1 cm from the eardrum, instead 2 cm, amplify +6dB, and you know what it means) as well as the width and length of soundtubes influence the response in frequency, etc..
 Audiotronics supplies many hearing aids manufacturers in Europe, you can't order 1 or 2 drivers. Regarding soundtubes, resistors, capacitors and Acoustics dampers, there are't problems.
 Anyway i'll do the possible.
 Buona fortuna per i tuoi esami universitari. Che studi stai facendo?


----------



## charlie0904

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ok so to start off. Both monitors are really really fast. They easily outclass all my monitors in terms of speed. Running them with a high-end source, the soundstage for both is wide wide wide and tall tall. It just sounds like you're sitting in a reference room with speakers surrounding you. 

 The TF18 first. Using the UE700 driver as the highs (i'm sure the TWFK will sound just as nice), the highs are crystal clear, with a fantastic tone to it. It's no longer the irritating high frequencies that many people find in UE, really crisp, clean high frequency response with lots of detail. The decay is just perfect as cymbals fade out absolutely perfectly. Mid-range...yup you probably guessed it that giant chunk is finally filled in. All i can say is, basically the mids are what the JH10X3 has, but more refined, quicker, with better accuracy. Wonder if this is what the JH13 sounds like? Lows are deep (deeper than the UE11), quick and punchy. The signature is still like the TF10, but it's much quicker, with a quicker and more powerful impact. 

 Overall, the TF18 is less than neutral, and offers a perfect sound for audiophile listeners, and touring artists. 

 --_

 

how about using CK100 high drivers?


----------



## MaoDi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *aj-kun* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Purple is TF-18 Pro, Blue is SE6X3.
 so which one is feral and which one is pacify? xD_

 

Hey! those were old names for the 5 driver versions, since i trashed those designs it's now the TF-18 and Se6X3. But if i had to name them with those two. Purple would be Feral, Blue is Pacify.


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GiuseppeItalia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Piotrus, I just read your PM.
 Sorry again for my english.
 i can help you with shells and wire your parts.
 6 or more drivers are for me just marketing.
 4 good drivers well chosen and a good crossover are more than enough for an excellent IEMS, but this is just my opinion.
 We can have fun doing iems with 20 drivers, but we must ask why
 Humans haven't elephant ears, space is limited and the frequency range remains the same as well as the hearing pain threshold. To drive a Ferrari at 300km/h you need the right road.
 We always keep in mind that we can work on others variables as the length of the ear canal influence dBSPL (a driver at 1 cm from the eardrum, instead 2 cm, amplify +6dB, and you know what it means) as well as the width and length of soundtubes influence the response in frequency, etc..
 Audiotronics supplies many hearing aids manufacturers in Europe, you can't order 1 or 2 drivers. Regarding soundtubes, resistors, capacitors and Acoustics dampers, there are't problems.
 Anyway i'll do the possible.
 Buona fortuna per i tuoi esami universitari. Che studi stai facendo?_

 

Ok, thanks for your reply here.
 We've discussed about placing the driver in a right position and tube lenght earlier, so yes we're all aware of how it does affect sound.
 Well four driver design is still ok to me.

 I spoke to Audiotronics they can sell me low quantities of drivers like 2 pcs. They can also provide me samples for free. But I see no use for shipping drivers to Poland and back to you. Maybe I could ask they to ship to you and send me only a bill.

 +YGPM


----------



## piotrus-g

Hey Giuseppe you've said that dampers and crossovers are not problem. How about cables? Basicaly I can make cables by myself with Neutrik jacks and so one, but I don't know where to get connectors like UM, UE, Westone use.


----------



## MaoDi

Also interested in where to find those wires used IN the soldering of the drivers and crossover.


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Also interested in where to find those wires used IN the soldering of the drivers and crossover._

 

Audiotronics -> audiotronics products -> in the middle find tree cables photo -> click


----------



## MaoDi

k do we want the litz wire or the lead wires?


----------



## piotrus-g

I'd say litz wire but really dunno


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *charlie0904* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_how about using CK100 high drivers?_

 

Don't you think CK100 are too expensive?


----------



## MaoDi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *piotrus-g* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Don't you think CK100 are too expensive?_

 

X2, $500 earphone to take apart?


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_$500 earphone to take apart?_

 

For two drivers only!


----------



## MaoDi

Not even, only one


----------



## charlie0904

I remember the CK100 has 2 high drivers and a mid-low driver. Just a thought to combine this in either SE6X0 or TF18.

 They cost cost about S$499.

 PS: I was thinking of combining 2 UM3X, replacing the high drivers with CK100 high drivers. pretty expensive I suppose. haha.


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *charlie0904* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I remember the CK100 has 2 high drivers and a mid-low driver. Just a thought to combine this in either SE6X0 or TF18.

 They cost cost about S$499.

 PS: I was thinking of combining 2 UM3X, replacing the high drivers with CK100 high drivers. pretty expensive I suppose. haha._

 

Basicaly no, it has one dual-driver 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 but i counted it as one per side so it makes two drivers.
 I see no use in changing UM3x driver for CK100 since those are the same TWFK drivers, right?


----------



## charlie0904

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *piotrus-g* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Basicaly no, it has one dual-driver 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 but i counted it as one per side so it makes two drivers.
 I see no use in changing UM3x driver for CK100 since those are the same TWFK drivers, right?_

 

I see. pardon for my ignorance, haha. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I was hoping to "double" the UM3X actually, but the few comments before doesn't seem to be too well.


----------



## MaoDi

don't think it's work using the CK100 to replace the high drivers in the SE6X3 and/or TF18.


----------



## pila405

How doubling the amount of drivers can improve anything? It doesn't make any sense...


----------



## GiuseppeItalia

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *piotrus-g* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I spoke to Audiotronics they can sell me low quantities of drivers like 2 pcs. They can also provide me samples for free. But I see no use for shipping drivers to Poland and back to you. Maybe I could ask they to ship to you and send me only a bill._

 

Piotrus you're right, i spoke with Audiotronics this morning they ask me a minimun order of 5 for each sonion driver, but i can do a try order for less. Anyway this is ok now.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *piotrus-g* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How about cables? Basicaly I can make cables by myself with Neutrik jacks and so one, but I don't know where to get connectors like UM, UE, Westone use._

 

About the male connector, i'm doing some tests, not bad, but the aesthetic result is not comparable to the industrial product.
 Why not use the UE cable used in standards iems?

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *piotrus-g* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_We've discussed about placing the driver in a right position and tube lenght earlier, so yes we're all aware of how it does affect sound._

 

Can you give me any link?

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Also interested in where to find those wires used IN the soldering of the drivers and crossover._

 

litz wire is better for this kind of uses(same used in all Hearing aids productions).


----------



## MaoDi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pila405* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How doubling the amount of drivers can improve anything? It doesn't make any sense..._

 

read a couple pages back and you'll understand.


----------



## Bilavideo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *charlie0904* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I see. pardon for my ignorance, haha. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I was hoping to "double" the UM3X actually, but the few comments before doesn't seem to be too well._

 

For the cost of buying a UM3X, you could build a double UM3X (two CI-22955s and two TWFKs per shell). It would be twice the earphone at the same price. The problem is fitting the second CI-22955 into the same enclosure. You can easily get the second TWFK in there, but not a second CI. You'd have to dump the enclosure and build a new one.


----------



## MaoDi

the 22955 is one of the largest drivers on the market today, so i don't think there will be a "dual CI" in any universal offerings in the future. But it's true, for $400 you can actually buy enough drivers for two pairs, maybe even three depending where you are getting the drivers. The CI is pretty cheap, the TWFK is the expensive driver.


----------



## pila405

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_read a couple pages back and you'll understand._

 


 Do you mean the review you wrote the moment you got the 'phones? If so, I read and it still doesn't explain it. :S

 I guess the molding made the most significant change.


----------



## MaoDi

Nope, read around pages 29 or so. Pdupiano and Myself explain and state a lot of points about why multiple drivers can improve the performance of a monitor.


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GiuseppeItalia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Piotrus you're right, i spoke with Audiotronics this morning they ask me a minimun order of 5 for each sonion driver, but i can do a try order for less. Anyway this is ok now.


 About the male connector, i'm doing some tests, not bad, but the aesthetic result is not comparable to the industrial product.
 Why not use the UE cable used in standards iems?


 Can you give me any link?


 litz wire is better for this kind of uses(same used in all Hearing aids productions)._

 

5 of each are still a lot when doing samples to see if it sounds good. But Sonion drivers aren't that expensive.

 I'm ok with westone or UE cables, but I asure you that it's possible to make good wire for less or better for the same money, with quality ended jack and male connectors (but I dunno where to get those).
 I'll have Westone cable with my UM-3ways. My concerns are also about female (2pin) connectors, do you have one?

 We spoke about drivers since ~20th page. I added graphs and so one, so unfortunately you have to keep up with it by yourself.


----------



## GiuseppeItalia

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *piotrus-g* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My concerns are also about female (2pin) connectors, do you have one?_

 

not hard to do for me. I made some for UE cables.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *piotrus-g* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm ok with westone or UE cables, but I asure you that it's possible to make good wire for less or better for the same money, with quality ended jack and male connectors (but I dunno where to get those)._

 

Ok, we'll try to make it, but male connectors are a problem for me to, though i'm testing some solution and don't worry we'll find how to do it.


----------



## GiuseppeItalia

Just a tast of a possible male and female connectors.
 Cellular phone photos: sorry for bad quality.


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GiuseppeItalia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_not hard to do for me. I made some for UE cables.


 Ok, we'll try to make it, but male connectors are a problem for me to, though i'm testing some solution and don't worry we'll find how to do it._

 

All right then, It sounds great!

 These connectors look really interesting. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 keep going on, this may be it!


----------



## Thrashingshrimp

Does anyone know what drivers the CK10 uses? I've always dreamt of these buds with an additional LF driver.

 Is it possible?


----------



## piotrus-g

I guess Ck10 uses TWFK dual driver, probably the driver is proprieraty. Yes, it's possible to add LF driver. I suggest one of CI drivers


----------



## MaoDi

I suggest a 2015 for the low. It outperforms the CI in terms of low-end.


----------



## Thrashingshrimp

And do you guys know where I can purchase the Sonion? I can find the CI22955 on Mouser of course, but not the Sonion drivers.

 And are you guys sure this will add a nice low end punch to my CK10 without ruining anything? I don't mind a loss in detail, but I don't want it to become a pair of fart cannons or anything. I'm thinking of getting these remolded with new drivers.

 But thanks anyway guys.


----------



## MaoDi

Can't directly answer that question, dependsi the tuning of UM. But i'm sure if you specify and make it really clear, they should be able to do what you want. I myself don't really remember what the CK10 sounds like, but i think adding a 2015 would be nice.


----------



## aj-kun

I just had an idea while I was driving home.
 Why not just get a single driver IEM reshelled with UM, get the faceplate and body different colours.
 Then open it up. (I'm not sure how to do this part maybe a very thin bladed hacksaw or something similar.
 Experiment by adding your own drivers and crossovers and then reseal them to test it.
 This way instead of just looking at frequencies and guessing how it sounds, you can see how you actually sounds all together to your ear. 
 I'm pretty sure acrylic is easy to fuse together. I've done it in my course at uni
 I think they use ethylene di-chloride to fuse 2 pieces together and its practically seamless.

 I'm not sure how you would do sound tubes, maybe some 2 or 3 mm heatshrink then somehow harden the exterior. Make a mold of it?

 Sorry for being slightly off topic - just had an idea and thought I'd share it.


----------



## MaoDi

Unless you understand, and know how to hook up crossovers, and add drivers, that's not going to work. Also, there's tuning involved to get the best sound out of a driver, a driver can sound horrendous or absolutely amazing, just depending on how you hook it up, what you hook it up with etc... 

 They seal the faceplate and shell together with more acrylic. They simply apply acrylic resin, and shine UV light on it to cure it.


----------



## aj-kun

Wasn't a suggestion for me - It was a suggestion for these guys with the drivers 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I have no knowledge on what good drivers are or how to wire crossovers etc (I'm looking into learning it for my big speakers tho) But these guys sound like they know what they are doing, and It would be a great way for them to get into prototyping their IEMs.

 My suggestion to reseal it with ethylene-di-chloride, wasn't so you would have an finished IEM, It was for testing how it would sound together sealed.

 You could send a bunch of drivers to UM have them make it up for you, wire and tune it for you but to their ears not yours.


----------



## MaoDi

Drivers/crossovers have to be stuck on with adhesive to make sure they don't move. So unless you want them to stick and restick your drivers like then times (and crossovers), still not gonna work. haha


----------



## piotrus-g

Actually it's not a good way which you suggested. But you can go to audiologist to make an empty shell from your impression plus faceplate, sound bores and have fun with rolling drivers. Once you got what you wanted stick everything together and you have nice earpiece. Though it's much more complicated then I explained 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 UM starting to pissing me off. I asked if I can change order to UE clear cables instead of Westone blacks, guess what... $60 This is SCAM! come on! custom cables cost $36 on UE website, for 60 bucks I can go with handmade cables...


----------



## aj-kun

Glue gun perhaps? holds well. Is easy to remove with a little heat. Just have to hope the melting point of glue is lower than that of acrylic.
 Still not gonna work? I might have to get into this DIY iem biz to prove you wrong lol.
 Looks like alot of fun.

 yeh thats how much my es cable cost me, if its that bad, opt for no cable and search ebay or the 2nd hand forums here for one, you'll probably get it back faster than your IEMS.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *piotrus-g* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_But you can go to audiologist to make an empty shell from your impression plus faceplate, sound bores and have fun with rolling drivers. Once you got what you wanted stick everything together and you have nice earpiece. Though it's much more complicated then I explained 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

Would an audiologist really be cheaper lol - my audiologist charged $76 for impressions, she'd probably try to make more money off me haha.
 Complicated is cool, it'll keep it interesting


----------



## piotrus-g

I just have sent them a question if I'm wrong thinking that ES cables which I stated in order form are included in price. If not I'm definitely going with handmade or other cables. Cause $60 for stock cables is misunderstanding for me. Enyo costs $69...


----------



## piotrus-g

Well my audiologist charged me $7 (seven) for both ears!
 Generally speaking in Poland audiologists don't want to take impressions only. They're always asking what for I need impressions. But it's somehow good I heard that some audiologists make impressions for free because they don't have it on a price list.


----------



## aj-kun

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f44/fs...m-iems-466906/
 cheaper.

 Lol well that's Poland, here in Australia audiologists try to make a living  jk
 yeh she tried to upsell me to get my iem's made by a place in Aus.


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *aj-kun* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Lol well that's Poland, here in Australia audiologists try to make a living  jk_

 






 loled
 thanks for the link.


----------



## piotrus-g

Ok, guys here's the thing.
 I went through whole Internet in search of cables that would be perfect to bride and use as custom cables (to mine and Guiseppe project), I dunno where to get such a thin cables that would be covered with teflon or something.
 So maybe you have some sort of source with such cables?


----------



## Thrashingshrimp

Actually, does anyone gave any spare LF drivers? I know this is a longshot, but perhaps one of you guys just has a pair of drivers like the CI22955 lying around...which actually sounds pretty weird now that I think about it...

 Anyway, I'm willing to pay of course.


----------



## MaoDi

Sorry shrimpy, if I did. Would definitely help you out.


----------



## piotrus-g

My God... $53 for westone cables. I'm going to buy cables by my own. Or maybe make one with Guiseppe.
 Thrashingshrimp If you do not intend to pay for the drivers ask KA for samples. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 If you don't mind throwing $50 on drivers then buy from mouser, newark or digikey
 IMO you'd better off with Sonion 2015 which would cost $8 each


----------



## MaoDi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *piotrus-g* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_MIf you do not intend to pay for the drivers ask KA for samples. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

That's just evil


----------



## piotrus-g

I know that's mean but if he want drivers asap with lowest costs possible then why not?
 I have a pair of CI22955 drivers I'd sell them for $6-7 (I don't remeber the price I've paid) but shipping to US would cost like $10 so I think you can give a try with sonion as well.


----------



## Thrashingshrimp

Now does Sonion have any distributors? I'm checking their site, but I can't find any. 2015's for 8 dollars sure does sound delicious, but only if I can find them :/

 If worst comes to worst, I'll take you up on your offer piotrus, if you don't mind. Otherwise, Mouser it is >_>

 PS: I just sent an email to Sonion for a distributor. Let's see what happens...


----------



## piotrus-g

Distributors
 Now Colsanmicro is just a tad more expensive ($10-12) from Audiotronics.it ($8-10 per driver) but they sould send you overseas.
 Or you can contact us sales dep. http://www.sonion.com/Products/How%2...20Offices.aspx


----------



## Thrashingshrimp

Should I just contact them for the drivers? I do not see a product page for them on either Audiotronics or Colsanmicro.


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Thrashingshrimp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Should I just contact them for the drivers?_

 

Yep.
 here you go: Colsan - Latest products


----------



## MaoDi

Sonion charges $50 shipping and Handling for samples. SO if you're going to get samples, take a whole bunch...ok now i'm evil.


----------



## GiuseppeItalia

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *piotrus-g* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well my audiologist charged me $7 (seven) for both ears!
 Generally speaking in Poland audiologists don't want to take impressions only. They're always asking what for I need impressions. But it's somehow good I heard that some audiologists make impressions for free because they don't have it on a price list._

 

Come in Italy i'll take your ear impressions for free! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 senza troppe domande.


----------



## Thrashingshrimp

Hey guys, it's me again.

 So the "extra driver" idea for my CK10's isn't going so well, so I decided to take a different approach.

 I contacted Fisher Hearing again and asked if they offered those Knowles Acoustic Dampeners/Filters and it turns out - they do!

 They said they have green (1500 ohms) and red (2200 ohms) filters available and they can put them on my customized CK10. So now I have two questions:

 1. Which filter should I choose if I want some extra low end slam, but still retain a good HF. None of these filters would totally change the sound, correct?

 2. Is there some way I can put these on my current CK10s so that I know what kind of sound I'm going to get?

 Thanks guys!

 PS: The minimum order for the Sonions were way too high, and shipping killed it as well. 60 dollars is a little too much for me to pay for a pair of CI22955 as well.


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Thrashingshrimp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey guys, it's me again.

 So the "extra driver" idea for my CK10's isn't going so well, so I decided to take a different approach.

 I contacted Fisher Hearing again and asked if they offered those Knowles Acoustic Dampeners/Filters and it turns out - they do!

 They said they have green (1500 ohms) and red (2200 ohms) filters available and they can put them on my customized CK10. So now I have two questions:

 1. Which filter should I choose if I want some extra low end slam, but still retain a good HF. None of these filters would totally change the sound, correct?

 2. Is there some way I can put these on my current CK10s so that I know what kind of sound I'm going to get?

 Thanks guys!

 PS: The minimum order for the Sonions were way too high, and shipping killed it as well. 60 dollars is a little too much for me to pay for a pair of CI22955 as well._

 

2200 Ohm damper will be good but higher impedance will be better. 1500 is too low on the other side. Your CK10 should have damper inside so you don't need to worry about this one. You'll have two separated sound bores with two different damper.
 With 2200 and CI I suggest using lowpass filter (crossover) unless you want midbas hump.
 Dampers are used to attenuate high frequencies and especially peaks to smooth a FR.
 Ask Knowles for totally free of charge samples. Just say you are going to build IEMs and you want some driver to evaluate and so one 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 - now this is the most evil


----------



## Thrashingshrimp

So you are telling me to ask for Fisher to do a dual bore design and put a red 2200 ohm filter in the bore with the high frequency driver and a normal filter in the bore with the LF driver? Remember, I'm putting these filters on *without adding any drivers* so that means no CI22955 unless prices suddenly go down. The CK10 is a dual driver design with one LF and one HF driver.

 Does this sound right, and will the sound be alright?

 Thanks.


----------



## piotrus-g

I'm confused.
 CK-10 has one dual driver - it's one piece.
 If you are going to add CI driver - ask for dual bore, which is obvious, and 2200 ohm damper. 2200 damper is for CI driver for passive HF attenuation. You can ask for lowpass filter cutting from ~800 or 1kHz - there's no point for adding a damper then, right?
 If you are not going to add driver then one bore design is the only way. You dont need to change Ck10 dampers unless you want less highs or more highs.


----------



## Thrashingshrimp

Ah I see. I was under the impression that the CK10 was a dual driver, but not a single piece.

 You see, I DO want less highs, but only a little bit less. I was thinking of filtering the single bore (meaning no additional driver) with a dampener to bring out the bass a little. I was wondering what filter you would use in this case, or if this whole notion is not recommended at all.


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Thrashingshrimp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ah I see. I was under the impression that the CK10 was a dual driver, but not a single piece._

 





 Notice one dual driver.
 Now, could you see color of damper? (color = impedance)


----------



## Thrashingshrimp

The color is white, though I don't know if that's a damper or some sort of wax filter...


----------



## piotrus-g

Hmm if it's white damper (unless it's some wax filter) it's 680 Ohm. Very well choice for TWFK driver however 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Say it's really white damper, then next you have 1000 brown damper and next is 1500 green.
 I don't recomend you going with green one, you'd have midrange and bass only, highs would roll-off early.


----------



## Thrashingshrimp

It would make that much of a difference, huh? I'll see if they have brown. If not, then I suppose I'll keep looking for drivers.

 Or maybe I could provide the filter for them?

 Anyway, what kind of commercial IEMs have you heard of piotrus? The CK10 is akin to the RE0, ER4, PFE, and other trebly phones. What kind of changes would you expect from a CK10 with a brown damper and a green damper?

 I really appreciate the help you have given me. Hopefully this is my last question!


----------



## piotrus-g

Difference between 680 (standard) and 1500 won't be HUGE but will be hearable. According to knowles acoustic materials standard twfk with 680 gives very flat high and mid freq response (+-3dB 1k-12kHz) My assumption is that when you put 1000 Ohm you'll get even flatter responce with roll off at 10kHz with 1500 damper you'll have a nice slide from 3khz and really roll-offed highs from ~8kHz. Buts only my guess based on graphs.

 I haven't heard CK10. I own PFE, ADDIEM, PL50. I heard many earphones like RE0, ER6i, Triple.fi, se530 and so one. I have't heard W3/UM3x, IE8, CK100 and some rather new earpieces like Ortofons


----------



## Thrashingshrimp

So if you took the RE0 (which is very similar to the CK10) and added a 1500 ohm filter, would it bear more resemblance to an se530, or something like a pl50?

 I think I'll just ask for a 1000 ohm filter when customizing the phone and see what happens.

 Thanks for all your help!


----------



## Bilavideo

I've tried all the colors. Red works best for slamming bass.


----------



## Thrashingshrimp

But what happens to the treble? Does it retain it's crispness, or not? You tried it on the TWFK, no? What commercial product IEM did the TWFK sound like with the red filters.

 And have you tried the greens?

 Oh dang, I'm asking way too many questions. I think I might have to pay you guys


----------



## piotrus-g

Bilavideo refers to CI driver I think. Putting 2200 Ohms (red) at TWFK is an overkill and noone does that.


----------



## Thrashingshrimp

By the way, what do you guys think is the cheapest decent LF driver out there (Doesn't have to be CI-22955 amazing)? Something sold by Mouser, Digikey, etc. preferably. After my CK10 customs, I'm thinking of making a low budget custom. TWFK+the LF driver you suggest.


----------



## MaoDi

CI is actually relatively cheap compared to others already. The cheapest would be BK, but BK's are good in mid and not lows. CI would say is still the best bet.


----------



## Thrashingshrimp

Alright, I guess the CI-22955 is THE LF driver to use then.

 Interesting...

 PS: Apparently I'm a 20 minute drive form the Knowles Acoustics World Headquarters. Can anyone say 'field trip'?


----------



## MaoDi

Or ask for some samples???!! =D


----------



## Thrashingshrimp

I don't know. They aren't responding to my emails. And it would seem weird to go to them in person and ask for handouts. If I can, I may buy something though 

 I'm only 16 though, so my parents gotta drive me. Not sure if they are interested...>_>


----------



## MaoDi

Hahaha I see. I'd be glad to go with you, but i'm 16 too...


----------



## jrubins

Just cross posting, I haven't even made it through this *epic* thread yet 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 Just wanted you to see my post here regarding using Radians "custom molded earplugs" as a way to make custom shells. 

 and I'm subscribing


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Thrashingshrimp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_PS: Apparently I'm a 20 minute drive form the Knowles Acoustics World Headquarters. Can anyone say 'field trip'?_


----------



## piotrus-g

Btw if you're 16 you shouldn't make customs, your ear canal is still growing and changing. There's possibility that you will loose propper seal thus you'll need to take a new impressions and remold


----------



## Thrashingshrimp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *piotrus-g* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Btw if you're 16 you shouldn't make customs, your ear canal is still growing and changing. There's possibility that you will loose propper seal thus you'll need to take a new impressions and remold_

 

Tell Maodi that


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Thrashingshrimp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Tell Maodi that 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Yeah right, I know that 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 He doesn't seem to be a starving student


----------



## MaoDi

I asked an audiologist already. They say that your ears never stop growing, but it tends to settle in around the ages of 16-18. I haven't lost my seal for my almost one year old ES3X's 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and besides, $159 every two years isn't that bad. That averages about...$5 a month? I can live without a cup of coffee for a month =)


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I asked an audiologist already. They say that your ears never stop growing, but it tends to settle in around the ages of 16-18._

 

Right, especially people who are using hearing aids have to make remolds after 2-3 years because their ear canals are getting bigger.

 Nice calculation though


----------



## MaoDi

Well for my age, it should be about 2-3 years.As you get older, they grow slower. And your ears tend to grow slower at around ages 16-18. I'm sure older hearing aid users will need to get a remold after sometime, but maybe not every 2-3 years.


----------



## Thrashingshrimp

Sounds good to me. I don't mind paying 100 bucks every two years. I've already spent much more than that since I first joined Head-fi a year and a half ago >_>


----------



## MaoDi

Haha i've spent more than that since i was 8 >.>"


----------



## Thrashingshrimp

You have a job or something? Or some really nice parents?

 EDIT: Actually, nevermind. That was rude of me to ask.


----------



## piotrus-g

He has unsatisfied ears


----------



## piotrus-g

Guys I think I'll start to make my own IEM-guide-notebook just like Klipsch has.
 This will include brief notes about drivers, driver placing, dampers etc how does it all works.


----------



## MaoDi

I don't mind you asking. I've got nice parents, but I have three jobs. Yes and unsatisfied ears.


----------



## Thrashingshrimp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *piotrus-g* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Guys I think I'll start to make my own IEM-guide-notebook just like Klipsch has.
 This will include brief notes about drivers, driver placing, dampers etc how does it all works._

 

That would be cool. By the way, Sonion sent me this real cool handbook filled with drivers, dampers, and IEM's in general. If you'd like, I can send them to you.


----------



## piotrus-g

I have one. It's named Sonion Recievers for Ear Monitors, right?
 Thrashingshrimp if you have the same take a look how each damper affects high freqs.
 But my IEM-guide will be more practical, with particular drivers discribed not only series. And much more informations how something change the sound.


----------



## Thrashingshrimp

It's a powerpoint called Transducers for IEM. It's got a lot of graphs and some info. I did find some stuff on dampers and how they were applied on the graphs, but I can't really tell how different it would sound without actually listening to it.


----------



## piotrus-g

Hmm could you please send me it? email address the same as the paypal. Thanks


----------



## piotrus-g

Oh God I just went through Sonions website in search of drivers. My mind is boilling...
 After several hours trying to find out what impedance will be correct, how the xover will affect impedance, how this all works. All I can tell you guys... this s**t is so screw*d up! I already know that this will take me about month to appropriate design two or three 3-4 way designs. And you know what? I am glad that UM will take care about my IEMs for now. I think that design, I had made, was totally unconsidered...

 I'm going sleep, its 2:15 am...

 But I made notes and took schemes


----------



## Bilavideo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *piotrus-g* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Bilavideo refers to CI driver I think. Putting 2200 Ohms (red) at TWFK is an overkill and noone does that._

 

Yes. I wouldn't put any filter onto the TWFK if I wanted it to retain its crispness. If I thought the presentation too harsh, I'd use the white filter, which is what Westone does with the UM3X. They, however, are using it to filter the whole three-driver platform rather than focusing on the CI-22955. Westone does add a resistor to the TWFK, which I think they're using so they can claim they have a "crossover." At most, the resistor is reducing the proportion of the presentation contributed by the TWFK so it doesn't overpower the CI, even though the CI has a higher output/sensitivity.

 If you want an easy, solid, euphonic three-way - at an eminently affordable price - use the same configuration Westone uses (CI-22955 + TWFK) but filter the CI with a red filter. Most of what you will hear will be the TWFK, which has an amazingly flat response overall. What you'll get from the CI will be a lot of thump in the low end. If you add it to the TWFK's flat response, you get a nice, even, presentation with a nice thumping low-end that cuts off before it can invade (and muddy up) the midrange.

 You can't do this in a UM3X shell, which is only set up to filter the mix of the CI and TWFK. Yet, this is a great opportunity lost. If you filtered only the CI and left the TWFK unfiltered, you'd have a great earphone that has great LF thump, rich mids and sizzling HF extension (more than the UM3X currently has). And you'd have it for about $160.


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bilavideo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If I thought the presentation too harsh, I'd use the white filter, which is what Westone does with the UM3X. They, however, are using it to filter the whole three-driver platform rather than focusing on the CI-22955. Westone does add a resistor to the TWFK, which I think they're using so they can claim they have a "crossover." At most, the resistor is reducing the proportion of the presentation contributed by the TWFK so it doesn't overpower the CI, even though the CI has a higher output/sensitivity._

 

They use only one damper because there's no point for more. Their crossover keeps HF and higher mids off CI so why filter something that's not there? They only smooth TWFK hf. Dampers do not affect LF

 They add resistor to TWFK to lower bass response and probably it's used as a lowpass filter to CI.


----------



## H22

Attention MaoDI, Piotrus-g, Bilavideo and anyone else who has a UM cusom multi driver frankenstien...
 There are 2 threads that are covering a lot of the same subject, this one and the UM re-shell thread. 
 I will re-post some questions/observations here as I think it is a more suitable thread. 

 What I have to work with:
 1 set of UM3X's
 2 sets of TF10's (due to a snafu with amazons "one click ordering"

 So I have many options, and since I am a bit adventiorous I would like to do something no one has done yet.

 start with the UM3X's, could just have them reshelled and have "close" to a ES3X (as i have been informed the UM3 & ES3 have different cross overs) .
 Or supply my own additional TWFK and CI22955 drivers and build a custom UM6X, thus reeping the benefits (ala JH13) of dual paired drivers. Only question here, is as the drivers are wired is series (?) would that require a crossover change? this is assuming of course that 2 CI-22955 drivers woud fit....

 then comes the TF10's, I see three options here,
 1, the UM reshell with aditional mid driver 
 2, a TF18 "clone" with TWFK's instead of the UM700's
 3, an 8 driver custom that is basically 2x option #1 provided everything would fit, and again reap the benifits of using paired up drivers.
 Of the 3 options, 2 and 3 sound quite apealling to me. 

 What you guys think?
 Joe


----------



## H22

another thing that I thought of (someone else on this thread thought of it as well), Why sacrifice the quality of the cross over buy making it small enough to fit inside the IEM?

 The connectors are small enough that 2 could easilly be stackec on top of eachother and put in the mold, the with 4 wires (one ground and 3 signal) the whole world opens up as far as building a premium crossover, even making it incredibly tunable witout having to get a re-shell every time. seems to me this would be a HUGE benifit to someone wanting to buid a prototype custom and wanting to do real time testing on the cross over.....
 just a thought


----------



## MaoDi

You would think the TWFK is a small dual driver...









 This is a Sonion 44A004...yes that is a dual driver.


----------



## pila405

But which one is superior in terms of SQ?


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *H22* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What I have to work with:
 1 set of UM3X's
 2 sets of TF10's (due to a snafu with amazons "one click ordering"

 start with the UM3X's, could just have them reshelled and have "close" to a ES3X (as i have been informed the UM3 & ES3 have different cross overs) .
 Or supply my own additional TWFK and CI22955 drivers and build a custom UM6X, thus reeping the benefits (ala JH13) of dual paired drivers. Only question here, is as the drivers are wired is series (?) would that require a crossover change? this is assuming of course that 2 CI-22955 drivers woud fit....
 What you guys think?
 Joe_

 

Drivers aren't wired in series typicaly but there are some series-wired drivers on the market ie. SE530 woofer if I remember correctly.
 Yes, adding drivers requires new crossover but UM is doing crossovers themselves. Crossover is included in $159. As I said $200 is only for a "copy" of brand customs like ES3x or UE10pro or your design.


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You would think the TWFK is a small dual driver...
 This is a Sonion 44A004...yes that is a dual driver._

 

Yeah I was aware that 4400series is the smallest of the smallest, but man... TWFK is HUGH in this comaprision! I didn't know that the difference is so overwhelming.

 I have spoken to Eric about 4400 series like two moths ago and he seemed that he don't recommend it as a high-end audio driver.
 This is what he said:
  Quote:


 There are so many differences between the TWFK and the 4400 I don’t even know where to start. They are totally different motors. I personally don’t care for the sound of either one in pro audio applications… they both make great hearing aid transducers though…


----------



## MaoDi

Yea, but to me the TWFK is a great high driver. He told me he wouldn't recommend the TWFK and 4400 as pro audio application receivers as well, but looking at how well the Mages, ES3X, ES3, W3, UM3X, PS200 came out i can confidently say that the TWFK is a great pro audio application receiver.

 I can't say which one is better as i only have the TWFK and not the 4400 (package is somewhere in the shipping system). I hope the 4400 would make a great tweeter.


----------



## the123

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I can't say which one is better as i only have the TWFK and not the 4400 (package is somewhere in the shipping system). I hope the 4400 would make a great tweeter._

 

I'm told 4400 is not meant specifically for IEM applications.


----------



## MaoDi

neither is any balanced armature on the shelf today, but you can always put them into their respective potentials in terms of sound.


----------



## Thrashingshrimp

Wait, so when I send in my CK10 (TWFK basically) and CI22955 to Fisher for remolding, should I ask for a dual bore design with a red filter on the CI and the TWFK unfiltered? Or should I just ask for a crossover (which they agreed to do)?


----------



## MaoDi

An unfiltered TWFK will sound harsh, heck a single FK driver sounds harsh without a filter not to mention two of them. I would go with a low impedance filter just to sooth out the output. Maybe a grey(330ohms) or a white (680ohms). A red would be nice on the CI.


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Thrashingshrimp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wait, so when I send in my CK10 (TWFK basically) and CI22955 to Fisher for remolding, should I ask for a dual bore design with a red filter on the CI and the TWFK unfiltered? Or should I just ask for a crossover (which they agreed to do)?_

 

Dual bore, red on CI, white/grey TWFK. Plus cross-over. If they do lowpass filter for CI there's no point for red damper.


----------



## AVU

stupid post - deleted.


----------



## MaoDi

Oh did i mention that the Phiaton PS200, using a TWFK uses a "yellow" damper 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 i believe yellow is 4400...no matter. I still think the PS200 is the best dual driver on the market today.


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Oh did i mention that the Phiaton PS200, using a TWFK uses a "yellow" damper 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 i believe yellow is 4400...no matter. I still think the PS200 is the best dual driver on the market today._

 

Yellow is 4700 Ohm my friend 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Have you seen freq response graph? It doesn't even go to 18kHz :] so this 30kHz is a bul....


----------



## MaoDi

Oh i'm sooo sorry but i don't keep track of anything above red 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 well it's actually not true. Depending on what equipment you're using to test the frequency response, some equipments are more sensitive and has a wider bandwidth then others. For example, the majority of machines only go from 20Hz-20kHz and only pick up so much response. My TF18 is a good example, UM told me it went from 20Hz-18kHz but i went and got it tested at a local audiologist's machine for hearing aids, and it ended up being 10Hz-20kHz (approx) so it just may be that the machine used to test the PS200 wasn't capable of testing out of the range of that.

 But who owns, as long as it sounds good right? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 PS:just checked the chart out, it seems that this machine is one of the ones i was talking about. The chart itself doesn't even go below 100Hz or extend over 20Hz.


----------



## DCinLBV

I want to thank everyone on this list for giving me the info to do this. I haven't posted before, but I have been reading this topic since last year, and decided to go ahead and build my own IEMs. For mine, I used a home impressions kit to make the ear mold, and then used brush-on latex rubber to build the negative mold. My cables are hacked together using the ends from my old, broken Ultimate Ears super-fi that are being replaced with a set from the TripleFi 10vi that I ordered. I made the jacks from some compressed d-sub pins with the flex tabs removed and epoxied into pairs using my cables as positioners.

 I am using the TWFK + ED31247 for a little extra bass reinforcement. I like a neutral sound, and this gives me that. my only crossover consist of a 1 uF non-polar metal cap on the TWFK, a white filter on the TWFK, and a green + white filters on the ED (the green on the port, the white approx 2/3rd of the way on the tube, or as close as I could eyeball the golden ratio point). I had planned on quite a bit more, but after testing, this was my favorite set-up. The drivers are encased in a hot glue capsule to hold everything together, decouple the drivers from each other, and provide strain relief on the wires.

 I filled the latex molds with the electronics and an "ultra clear" epoxy resin for surfboards (I have a good supply on hand and have used it a lot) that was tinted with a "Bahama Blue" dye. After fitting, finishing and polishing, they were coated twice in a clear acrylic nail polish. I have some pictures of the process on Flickr here:

DIY IEMs

 The resin looks a little cloudy because of the hot glue capsule inside, and my cellphone doesn't like the lighting, but it is completely translucent in-person.

 Thanks again to Bilavideo for starting this thread, and everyone else who contributed. Your information definitely gave me the guidance to pursue this. I have build a lot of speakers, amps and other electronic equipment, and done numerous home theater & car audio installs over the past 25 years, but this was a very different project to tackle, and they sound just like I want.

 Drew


----------



## Bilavideo

Congratulations! Great job on your IEMs! You took the idea and ran with it, and we are so excited for you! You are now the model for others to follow. The snowball is definitely rolling down the mountain now.


----------



## piotrus-g

Drew, you're my master 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Your IEMs look sooo professional.
 Now, you even soldered drivers in heatsink! Great job mate. Dual acoustic filtering - this is the first time I see it in IEM application.
 Hands down full respect to you!

 My advice for you is to try put TWFK driver with a shorter tube. Longer sound bore affects highs. And try not to put dampers at the very end of tube next time other way they will clog with wax fast


----------



## MaoDi

hey great job! very impressive job considering you actually DIYed the outside. Unfortunately Piotrus, it's not the first dual acoustic filter on the market. JH audio already does that


----------



## DCinLBV

Thanks, 

 Piotrus, the old computer heatsink for soldering was because my helping hands would have crushed those little things and the fins were spaced perfectly. The heatsinking was just nice benefit.

 Those tubes in the picture were my first set for testing. The final tubes are about a centimeter long, and the one filter is about a third of the way in.


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Unfortunately Piotrus, it's not the first dual acoustic filter on the market. JH audio already does that 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

:O didn't know that honestly


----------



## Bilavideo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DCinLBV* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks, 

 Piotrus, the old computer heatsink for soldering was because my helping hands would have crushed those little things and the fins were spaced perfectly. The heatsinking was just nice benefit.

 Those tubes in the picture were my first set for testing. The final tubes are about a centimeter long, and the one filter is about a third of the way in._

 

The heatsink idea was pure brilliance. I've put these together using the hands free and I think your idea was eminently better.


----------



## charlie0904

Drew, you are unbelievable.

 master class.


----------



## AVU

Spectacular work - really inspiring!


----------



## Bilavideo

It's happening. People are taking control of their IEMs!


----------



## GiuseppeItalia

I am pleased to share with you a summary of my work.
 part 1


----------



## GiuseppeItalia

part 2


----------



## charlie0904

Hi GiuseppeItalia, are they 4 drivers? they sure don't look home-made. curious about your crossover.


----------



## MaoDi

They are three drive ri believe, made up of two 2000 drivers and one 2300 all from Sonion OR two CI's and an ED from knowles. They don't look home-made cause giuseppeltalia is an audiologist i believe and owns basically more of the necessary materials to make an IEM company made IEM.


----------



## LFF

giuseppeltalia - Bravisimo!

 I can't wait until you can walk into your local audiologist office and order one of these on the spot.


----------



## KT88

I just started going through this thread today, and I've read most of your reply's. I must say, great job! Indeed one of a kind.


----------



## godog

wow looks awesome


----------



## GiuseppeItalia

Good and expert eye MaoDi.
 They are three drive made up of two CI's and an ED from Knowles.

 I think being an audiologist and have the knowledge and materials to contribute to this tread should not be considered a disadvantage for anyone, especially because the choice of materials and IEM realization process must take into account the health of the wearer.
 As I said in my first post, my job is help people hearing better through hearing aids, IEM are for me just one of my passions that I cultivate for fun in my, very little, free time.
 I was attracted by the competence, the creativity and the freshness of some posts of this original tread. Mine is just a way to help, as I can, and be helped by somebody who wants.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LFF* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I can't wait until you can walk into your local audiologist office and order one of these on the spot._

 

Thank you very much LFF, I hope you do not have to wait so long.


----------



## marozie

Wow! You guys are pioneers! I totally want to try this. I have a few questions though, and I apologize if they've been covered already: 1) When you encase the electronics in the resin, how do you ensure that the sound port(s), cable plugs don't get sealed? I suppose you could just drill them out if they did. And 2) what kind of sound quality is achievable? I know this will partly depend on the drivers used, how many drivers used, etc., but is it analogous to spending $200 on parts and building an amp that's worth 3x as much?


----------



## Bilavideo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GiuseppeItalia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_part 2_

 

Giuseppe, your work is inspiring. You leave us breathless.


----------



## DCinLBV

marozie, I think you can match the sound quality of most the IEM manufactures if you want, and probably for half the price, or less. The drivers you can buy are coming off the same assembly lines as theirs. Theirs might have been tweaked for their particular needs, but the quality is the same. I have been amazed by the sound quality, but I have never used any other custom IEMs, so I don't know the comparison. I have listened to several universal IEMs in the $200-$350 range, and I prefer the sound I am getting from my own IEMs (which cost me just a hair over $200), but some of that is because I tailored them to what I wanted. I mostly listen to acoustic and indie music on either my cell phone, or plugged into a computer where the grounding noise can be a problem, and I am at an age where I am trying to protect my hearing, so I wanted a lower efficiency and a flatter sound than what most of the IEMs provide. That is how I ended up using an ED for a woofer with the TWFK.

 The resin pour is the most frightening part of the whole process. Before I got there, I held the sound tubes onto the outlets of the armatures and sealed them on with hot glue, although silicon could be used too. I also had tubes 2~3 inches long that I passed through small holes that I cut in the tip of the latex rubber molds. That way I had long enough tubes to bend them in the right direction for their exit (I think in one of the pictures you can see the green twist tie I was using to hold them in place). After the tubes are sealed onto the armatures, and before putting them in the mold, test everything. I also used small sewing pins pushed through the mold to hold things in place inside the mold and keep the electronics from touching the sides. A light coat of petroleum jelly will guarantee their removal if you wait until the resin is set, but I removed them right after it started to congeal and all the holes back-filled.


----------



## marozie

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DCinLBV* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_marozie, I think you can match the sound quality of most the IEM manufactures if you want, and probably for half the price, or less. The drivers you can buy are coming off the same assembly lines as theirs. Theirs might have been tweaked for their particular needs, but the quality is the same. I have been amazed by the sound quality, but I have never used any other custom IEMs, so I don't know the comparison. I have listened to several universal IEMs in the $200-$350 range, and I prefer the sound I am getting from my own IEMs (which cost me just a hair over $200), but some of that is because I tailored them to what I wanted. I mostly listen to acoustic and indie music on either my cell phone, or plugged into a computer where the grounding noise can be a problem, and I am at an age where I am trying to protect my hearing, so I wanted a lower efficiency and a flatter sound than what most of the IEMs provide. That is how I ended up using an ED for a woofer with the TWFK.

 The resin pour is the most frightening part of the whole process. Before I got there, I held the sound tubes onto the outlets of the armatures and sealed them on with hot glue, although silicon could be used too. I also had tubes 2~3 inches long that I passed through small holes that I cut in the tip of the latex rubber molds. That way I had long enough tubes to bend them in the right direction for their exit (I think in one of the pictures you can see the green twist tie I was using to hold them in place). After the tubes are sealed onto the armatures, and before putting them in the mold, test everything. I also used small sewing pins pushed through the mold to hold things in place inside the mold and keep the electronics from touching the sides. A light coat of petroleum jelly will guarantee their removal if you wait until the resin is set, but I removed them right after it started to congeal and all the holes back-filled._

 

Very helpful! I think I'll order the parts today. I'm having trouble locating the acoustic tubing, though. Can it be any 1.41mm ID tubing?

 EDIT: Actually, TWFKs are out of stock every where. Is there a suitable alternative, or should I wait on it?


----------



## DCinLBV

I ordered my tubing and filters from microsonic, but during some of my testing, I had used some silicon tubing meant for an R/C fuel line. The tube walls on it were just too thick to fit inside the mold.


----------



## WalkGood

Excellent work GiuseppeItalia


----------



## marozie

Yeah, I saw the filters at Microsonic, but I didn't see the tubing. Well, I saw some tubing, but it wasn't clear if it was what was needed, but I guess it is? Does anyone have driver suggestions? I was going to do TWFK + CI, but I don't know if I can wait 8 weeks for the TWFK to arrive. I can't seem to find Sonion drivers anywhere. Perhaps a triple single driver setup?

 EDIT: My bad, just found Bil-o's nice driver summary.


----------



## marozie

OK, I've dived in. I have no idea how this is going to work out. TWFKs seem to be hard to come by, but DTECs are the same dual driver design and have pretty similar characteristics -- actually seem to be a bit better in the HF; 85 dBs at 10 kHz isn't too shabby. As for the woofer I've gone with ED-23147; 110 dBs at 100 Hz ain't nothin' to sneeze at neither. I hope Bilavideo (may I call you Bil-o? It just rolls off the tongue...) hasn't uncovered any flaws in these drivers from his extensive testing that I missed. At the very least I can be the guinea pig for a novel driver set. I've ordered 680 and 2200 ohm KA dampers and acoustic tubing from Microsonic, a DIY earmold kit, and will pick up some epoxy resin and latex at a local craft store. I haven't really figured out the cable/connectors yet. I think I will follow the lead of (sorry, I forget who) and take some male/female pins from D-sub connectors. Cable will perhaps come from CAT5 stock, with a spare Neutrik 3.5mm plug I have laying around. I'll document the build and report back. Wish me luck!


----------



## piotrus-g

DTEC as a tweeter? Will see if it's good idea. After 3 weeks with my IEMs I really started to like TWFK's highs. They're not too bright and not too dark. The amount is fairly enough.
 ED will work as a woofer well but I don't think it'll surpass CI driver, though.
 What crossover are you going to use?


----------



## marozie

Yes, DTEC as the tweeter. I was going to use a 1uf cap for a crossover. No love for the ED, huh? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I guess in retrospect it's output doesn't look super impressive next the the CI, but I guess we'll see! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 EDIT: Actually, what the hell was I thinking? DTEC has a better LF response than ED. Hmm... perhaps I will order some CIs just in case. Here I was trying to be all sneaky and different...


----------



## marozie

OK, I have CIs coming as well. Now, the question is, do I return the EDs or incorporate them? Would it even be possible to fit a CI, an ED, and a DTEC into one shell? I saw a post where MaoDi talked about using EDs for their midrange, so what about using a CI with 2200 ohm damper (as the woofer), ED with 680 ohm damper (as the midrange), and DTEC with 1uf cap and 680 ohm damper (as the tweeter)? Seems like a decent setup in my mind.

 Another question though, I also saw the discussion about how the dual drivers (TWFK, DTEC) can be wired seperately, with a cap on one and not on the other, for example. Are the dual drivers just two of the same driver in one package, i.e. each driver has the exact same frequency response? Has anyone tried capping one driver and not the other, so that you get a tweeter and a full range out of the same package? Because that would seem to make adding the ED unnecessary.

 Last question, the frequency response for DTEC seems to have much better HF than TWFK (unless I'm reading something incorrectly), so why does DTEC get no love as a tweeter? I mean, numbers don't always translate to sound, so maybe the TWFK just sounds better as a tweeter, but just curious about that. Maybe someone who has tried DTEC as a tweeter can chime in...


----------



## MaoDi

You're kinda stuck here, you have the ED's which are basically full-range drivers, then you have a mid-range driver (DTEC) and a mid/low driver which is the CI.


----------



## MaoDi

If i don't get this wrong, but i believe that 85dB is what, 100 times less powerful than something at 100dB and 1000 times less powerful than something at 115dB? don't remember how it goes but it's something like that. 85dB is really weak, unless you base your whole entire frequency spectrum on 85dB sensitivity or something, it's gonna not really gonna work. And if it's sensitivity is 85dB, it'd be pretty hard to drive considering a regular monitor is runing at about 120dB.


----------



## piotrus-g

x2 MaoDi

 marozie, basically you could wire drivers CI-ED-DTEC but in this configuration you'll need a highpass and lowpass filters (cap and resistor). Plus in 3way crossover configurationis it's good to have one driver wired in reverse.
 Wiring three drivers in your case four without any cap in parallel would be to much to load for a player.
 I suggest you using 1-5 Ohm resistor in series with CI and a cap in series for the first driver of DTEC (~500Hz) and higher vaule cap in series with the second DTEC driver (4kHz).
 Dampers you chose are good.
 But you would have really weak highs, mate. There's a need for a tweeter.


----------



## GiuseppeItalia

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bilavideo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Giuseppe, your work is inspiring. You leave us breathless._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *WalkGood* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Excellent work GiuseppeItalia 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

Thanks to Bilavideo and WalkGood !
 Anyway this tread is very inspiring.


----------



## marozie

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *piotrus-g* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ But you would have really weak highs, mate. There's a need for a tweeter._

 

Here's what I don't understand though:
 TWFK:




 DTEC:





 So for TWFK there's a peak of about 104dBs at 3KHz, and a peak of about 97 at 6K, which drops of linearly from there to about 74 at 10K. With DTEC there's a peak of about 118 at about 3.5K, a peak of about 104 at just under 6K, but at 7K it's almost 90, there's a valley of 80 at 8K, back up to 85 at 9K, and then still 85 at 10K. Yyou guys have heard them and I haven't, so if you're telling me that TWFK is a better tweeter than DTEC I have to take your word for it, but I don't understand why that would be the case given the graphs. Can you guys explain? Is it because the peak of 122 at 1K with DTEC drowns out the highs? I guess that would make sense since TWFK is only 95 at 1K. Man, if I need to get my hands on some TWFKs my IEMs are gonna be on hold for a while, I don't know if I can wait!


----------



## marozie

Hmm... what about WBFK? It's the single driver version of TWFK, practically the same frequency response, actually shifted a bit more into HF with peaks at 4K and 7K instead of 3K and 6K:


----------



## MaoDi

Ignore the two ends of the graph, they don't mean anything at all. This was told to me by Eric Hruza, who currently works with Sonion, and previously was with Shure and Knowles. He's been with BA drivers for like 20 years, he knows what he's saying. =)


----------



## marozie

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If i don't get this wrong, but i believe that 85dB is what, 100 times less powerful than something at 100dB and 1000 times less powerful than something at 115dB? don't remember how it goes but it's something like that. 85dB is really weak, unless you base your whole entire frequency spectrum on 85dB sensitivity or something, it's gonna not really gonna work. And if it's sensitivity is 85dB, it'd be pretty hard to drive considering a regular monitor is runing at about 120dB._

 

Close, but not really. Check out this essay. Decibels are a logarithmic ratio of powers, in the case of audio we're talking about sound pressure levels in watts/meter squared. The lowest audible SPL is one trillionth of a watt/meter squared, the threshold of pain is 1 watt/meter squared, so that's a range of 120dB (10*log(1/0.000000000001) = 120). To calculate the fold difference subtract the powers, take the log, and multiply by 10. An increase from 85dB to 100dB: 10*log(15) = 11.76x; from 85dB to 115dB: 10*log(30) = 14.77x. But a 10x increase in SPL is only perceived as being 2x as loud. In other words, 100dB has ten times the power as 90dB (10*log(10) = 10x) but is only twice as loud to our ears.


----------



## marozie

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ignore the two ends of the graph, they don't mean anything at all. This was told to me by Eric Hruza, who currently works with Sonion, and previously was with Shure and Knowles. He's been with BA drivers for like 20 years, he knows what he's saying. =)_

 

How much of the two ends?


----------



## marozie

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *piotrus-g* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_x2 MaoDi

 marozie, basically you could wire drivers CI-ED-DTEC but in this configuration you'll need a highpass and lowpass filters (cap and resistor). Plus in 3way crossover configurationis it's good to have one driver wired in reverse.
 Wiring three drivers in your case four without any cap in parallel would be to much to load for a player.
 I suggest you using 1-5 Ohm resistor in series with CI and a cap in series for the first driver of DTEC (~500Hz) and higher vaule cap in series with the second DTEC driver (4kHz).
 Dampers you chose are good.
 But you would have really weak highs, mate. There's a need for a tweeter._

 

Could you explain this is more detail? I thought a cap on the signal side or an inductor on the ground side acted as high pass filters, while a cap on the ground side or an inductor on the signal side acted as low pass filters. Resistors can act as low pass filters? If DTEC is no good as a tweeter I'm thinking CI-ED-WBFK. Thoughts? Also, you're saying to wire the drivers in series? Not parallel?

 EDIT: Ah, ok, I think you're saying to wire the "crossover" in series with the driver, but to wire the drivers in parallel...


----------



## MaoDi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *marozie* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Close, but not really. Check out this essay. Decibels are a logarithmic ratio of powers, in the case of audio we're talking about sound pressure levels in watts/meter squared. The lowest audible SPL is one trillionth of a watt/meter squared, the threshold of pain is 1 watt/meter squared, so that's a range of 120dB (10*log(1/0.000000000001) = 120). To calculate the fold difference subtract the powers, take the log, and multiply by 10. An increase from 85dB to 100dB: 10*log(15) = 11.76x; from 85dB to 115dB: 10*log(30) = 14.77x. But a 10x increase in SPL is only perceived as being 2x as loud. In other words, 100dB has ten times the power as 90dB (10*log(10) = 10x) but is only twice as loud to our ears._

 

So i wasn't that much off, and honestly, TWICE as loud enough is quite a bit though.

  Quote:


 How much of the two ends? 
 

Straight from Eric, 

 "You should “throw out” any data you see on our web site (or anyone else’s). That data is for our hearing aid customers and was compiled using hearing aid couplers and hearing aid standards. So the curves you see on the data sheets are totally useless below about 200 Hz and above about 8k Hz. I guess what I am saying is the data is totally misleading for your application. We have lots of pro audio data… but only on our pro audio drivers… that I can’t tell you about or show you (or even admit who is using). "


----------



## pdupiano

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Straight from Eric, 

 "You should “throw out” any data you see on our web site (or anyone else’s). That data is for our hearing aid customers and was compiled using hearing aid couplers and hearing aid standards. So the curves you see on the data sheets are totally useless below about 200 Hz and above about 8k Hz. I guess what I am saying is the data is totally misleading for your application. We have lots of pro audio data… but only on our pro audio drivers… that I can’t tell you about or show you (or even admit who is using). "_

 

HAHHHHH... seriously I wish I could stop laughing because this entire thread is dedicated to those graphs... ok stopped laughing... now I'm just plain crying because about 90% of the validity of the info on this thread just got diced up by that one comment. Seriously, we gotta find a cheap way to test drivers before this project moves forward, otherwise building custom iems is building them blind.


----------



## marozie

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Straight from Eric, 

 "You should “throw out” any data you see on our web site (or anyone else’s). That data is for our hearing aid customers and was compiled using hearing aid couplers and hearing aid standards. So the curves you see on the data sheets are totally useless below about 200 Hz and above about 8k Hz. I guess what I am saying is the data is totally misleading for your application. We have lots of pro audio data… but only on our pro audio drivers… that I can’t tell you about or show you (or even admit who is using). "_

 

Holy crap.


----------



## marozie

Well, moving on, I received my DIY earmold kit from earplugstore superstore tonight. It was actually really easy. You get cups with the compound and hardener, little foam "tampons" for lack of a better word, and a syringe. You stick the foam things in your ears and push them in with a Q-tip, mix the two compounds together, put it in the syringe, and then just fill up your ear. The tampons I guess are to prevent the compound from going too deep into the canal, and the strings are supposed to help you pull it out. Cures in about ten minutes, and has the texture of rubber. I order a kit that had enough compound to do four impressions in case you mess any of them up, but I got the first two to come out fine. Here are some picks:


----------



## SilverCans

Guys this thread is just too long to follow. Can someone summarized what was learned, what drivers are best, etc (and any other pertinent info)?


----------



## marozie

There are other people who can answer this better than I can, but I'll tell you what I've taken from it:

 -It's possible to create homemade IEMs that are comparably in quality to high end custom made products, utilizing more or less the same components/parts.
 -There are two primary driver manufacturers, Sonion and Knowles. Sonions seemed to be a bit harder to acquire since (correct me if I'm wrong) they aren't carried by the major distributors in the US, whereas you can buy Knowles drivers at Digikey, Mouser, Newark.
 -Which drivers are "best" depends on the application and how it's implemented. Some drivers are better suited for low frequency, some are better suited to mids, and some are better suited to high frequency. Thus it's possible to create IEMs with 3, 4, 5, 6 drivers that all have slightly different frequency responses, the same way loud speakers have sub-woofers, woofers, and tweeters.
 -The length of the acoustic tubing, which is the channel from the bore of the driver to the sound port of the IEM, will affect the frequency response of the output: short tubing will produce better HF, long tubing will produce better LF.
 -Driver "crossovers" are generally passive components that include caps, resistors (although I'm still not clear on that), and acoustic dampers. Acoustic dampers are more or less "muffles" of different strength for filtering out HF. Caps are generally used to filter out LF.
 -Bilavideo, MaoDi, piotrus-g, to name a few, have covered in pretty good detail the characteristics of most of the common drivers, and there are about 3 (I think) pretty good step by step examples of how to make yourself some IEMs with custom molded earpieces. The most common configuration is Knowles TWFK with a cap (1uf or so) as a tweeter and Knowles CI with a high value acoustic damper as the woofer. I'm in the process of making some myself and am trying to document the steps involved as best I can.

 Hope that helps.


----------



## MaoDi

I'm trying out some a variety of drivers at the moment. I'm actually trying to see what i can do with the ED23147 since it seems like a pretty nice full-range driver. Possibly just a simply full range would be nice. I'm still waiting on my Sonion drivers.


----------



## MaoDi

Basically though, a quick summary of popular drivers are

*Lows-* Knowles CI, Sonion 3300, Sonion 2015, Sonion 2028 (The CI, 2015 and 2028 are the most powerful, while the 3300 goes the lowest)

*Mids-* Knowles ED29689, Knowles BKs, Knowles CI, Knowles DTEC, Sonion 3100, Sonion 3300. 

*Highs-* Knowles TWFK, Knowles ED, Knowles TWFK, Knowles FK, Sonion 2300

 These are among the most popular drivers used in the industry.


----------



## GiuseppeItalia

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *marozie* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_-Driver "crossovers" are generally passive components that include caps, resistors (although I'm still not clear on that), and acoustic dampers. Acoustic dampers are more or less "muffles" of different strength for filtering out HF. Caps are generally used to filter out LF._

 

Hi Marozie,
 resistors are used to reduce output and/or to correct the system impedance.
 To obtain a low-pass and pass-band filters you need coils, but using them in IEM is not a good idea because it's noisy.
 For TWFK i suggest you a 0.82/0.90uF capacitor.

 P.S.: your ear impressions seems almost perfect. Better left


----------



## GiuseppeItalia

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm trying out some a variety of drivers at the moment. I'm actually trying to see what i can do with the ED23147 since it seems like a pretty nice full-range driver. Possibly just a simply full range would be nice. I'm still waiting on my Sonion drivers._

 

Nice idea.
 I think this driver may be interesting in a two drivers iem.


----------



## marozie

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GiuseppeItalia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi Marozie,
 resistors are used to reduce output and/or to correct the system impedance.
 To obtain a low-pass and pass-band filters you need coils, but using them in IEM is not a good idea because it's noisy.
 For TWFK i suggest you a 0.82/0.90uF capacitor._

 

So what's the purpose of using a resistor on the woofer driver?

 EDIT: Ah, never mind, I see that CI has a much higher SPL than most of the tweeter drivers.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GiuseppeItalia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_P.S.: your ear impressions seems almost perfect. Better left_

 

Thank you! That means a lot coming from a professional. Yes, the right impression has that defect at the bend of the canal, but when I make the acrylic casts I figure I can just fill it in.


----------



## marozie

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm trying out some a variety of drivers at the moment. I'm actually trying to see what i can do with the ED23147 since it seems like a pretty nice full-range driver. Possibly just a simply full range would be nice. I'm still waiting on my Sonion drivers._

 

I have the ED23147 coming as well. I'm thinking my setup will either be be CI-ED-WBFK or CI-DTEC-WBFK. You've heard both ED and DTEC if I'm not mistaken, which do you prefer as a midrange driver?


----------



## MaoDi

DTEC is no doubt the upperhard mid-range driver, if you really want a mid-range driver in the ED series the ED29689 is a tank, it's among the most impressive. The ED23147 i'd use as a low/low-mid driver with something around the same level of output like a TWFK or something.


----------



## marozie

I was just reading through this on the KA site and saw the following about WBFK: 

*-"Best high frequency response of any Knowles element"*

*-"TWFK pairs WBFK with low frequency FK"*

 Answers my question about whether TWFK is two different drivers in one package. So all the people that are using TWFK as a dedicated tweeter with a cap as a HF filter are basically using WBFK and wasting the low frequency FK. It also makes TWFK a hell of a deal since it costs about $50, and WBFK alone is $40.

 EDIT: HOLY CRAP! ES Series: *"EH micro speaker, but with internal, highly-efficient, class D amplifier."* I don't know why you'd want an IEM driver with it's own built in amplifier, but that's pretty crazy!

 EDIT #2: TEC Series: *"DTEC combines two TEC elements.* DTEC provides increased output and reduced vibration compared to a single speaker."


----------



## Bilavideo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *marozie* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I was just reading through this on the KA site and saw the following about WBFK: 

*-"Best high frequency response of any Knowles element"*

*-"TWFK pairs WBFK with low frequency FK"*

 Answers my question about whether TWFK is two different drivers in one package. *So all the people that are using TWFK as a dedicated tweeter with a cap as a HF filter are basically using WBFK and wasting the low frequency FK.* It also makes TWFK a hell of a deal since it costs about $50, and WBFK alone is $40._

 

Truth in print!


----------



## Bilavideo

I'm a big fan of the following simple design:

 TWFK
 CI-22955 with red filter

 Yes, the C-22955 has a higher SPL/sensitivity. However, when you muffle it with a red filter, you're cutting back on that difference. Given that the TWFK has a tremendously flat response throughout much of its range, limiting the frequency response of the CI driver just lets it build the LF. I really don't need it for anything more than that. The TWFK, by itself, gives me everything I want. The only reason to use the CI at all is to add a certain degree of thump to the bottom end. I don't want it to affect my mids or treble. Putting a sock in it, so to speak, is the best way to limit the CI to the contribution that matters.

 For a truly natural sound, one could also double down on TWFKs and enjoy a modestly-priced quad.

 I'm not interested in adding caps or resistors at all.


----------



## marozie

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bilavideo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 I'm not interested in adding caps or resistors at all._

 

Interesting.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bilavideo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 I'm a big fan of the following simple design:

 TWFK
 CI-22955 with red filter_

 

This was the setup I was going to go with but couldn't get my hands on TWFKs and didn't have the patience to wait.


----------



## Bilavideo

Besides the bragging rights of being able to tell its customers that its UM3X has "an electronic crossover," one reason Westone gave those phones a resistor was the fact that it doesn't directly filter the CI driver. Instead, it uses a white filter for the combined output of both drivers. Without the resistor, the CI would overpower the TWFK. If, however, you directly filter the CI, especially with a red filter, you won't need a resistor to L-Pad the CI. The filter will muffle it just fine, leaving the predominantly-flat TWFK to handle all frequencies while the CI supplements it at the low end.


----------



## marozie

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bilavideo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Besides the bragging rights of being able to tell its customers that its UM3X has "an electronic crossover," one reason Westone gave those phones a resistor was the fact that it doesn't directly filter the CI driver. Instead, it uses a white filter for the combined output of both drivers. Without the resistor, the CI would overpower the TWFK. If, however, you directly filter the CI, especially with a red filter, you won't need a resistor to L-Pad the CI. The filter will muffle it just fine, leaving the predominantly-flat TWFK to handle all frequencies while the CI supplements it at the low end._

 

So both drivers come out of one bore?


----------



## MaoDi

For the Um3X yes, for the ES3X no. But not sure why Westone decided to us a white filter on the ES3X, but i'm they definitely know what they are doing.


----------



## piotrus-g

Ok guys I see there's still a problem with cross-overs. That's why I'd like to tell you how my crossover is built and how does it compare with other phones.

 Basicaly I have 3 way crossover. CI is wired on reverse while TWFK is wired typicaly.
 3way crossover cuts off CI driver frequency so there's no need for a damper at all but UM put grey one "just in case". TWFK is also damped with grey or white filter.
 This is something really interesting. Because reverse-driver-wiring is typical for speakers. Normally when two sinusiods meet they bump each other. When reverse one of sine wave they mute each other out. So when you make a crossover reverse wiring allows frequenicies to blend without bumping.
 So if you look at W3 or UM3x they have only one damper because there's no need for more! (and I already explained it earlier). Because they're electronically filtred


----------



## marozie

Well, it seems as if both methods are comparably effective: no crossover and adequate dampening, or using crossovers with minimal dampening. The idea of wiring one driver in reverse is interesting though. It would seem to me, then, that if one driver was wired correctly and one wired in reverse the frequency response overlap of the two would cancel out? Wouldn't this effectively achieve the same thing as a crossover anyway?


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *marozie* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wouldn't this effectively achieve the same thing as a crossover anyway?_

 

Unfortunately no... It's only good when you're using cross-over.
 Imagine. You have, say, 110dB@ LF of ED driver and 120dB @LF of CI. When one reversed you will end up with 10dB of bass, if I'm thinking correctly.
 BUT... it would work... when... CI reversed, damped and ED with cap.


----------



## pdupiano

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *piotrus-g* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_BUT... it would work... when... CI reversed, damped and ED with cap. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Can you elaborate on what this would achieve? As of right now by running one driver completely out of phase of another, you are in fact canceling out the signals except for points where the two signals differ, but I would suspect that if those are in the range of 10db whereas everything else is 120db or so, then whatever you get from that reversed + normally wired driver is inaudible.


----------



## Bilavideo

I also don't understand the logic of wiring a driver out of phase.


----------



## MaoDi

I do not understand that either, i would understand altering the magnitude and range of the signal going into the driver or dampening it with a filter. But simply making the driver perform to less of a potential just doesn't sound right.


----------



## SilverCans

The only reason someone would wire a driver in reverse is to get better phase matching with the other drivers. Depending on the distance one driver is relative to the other, sound of driver A can reach the listener before B, if they are far enough apart, they could be 180deg out of phase with each other. Now, that said, adding crossovers also alter the phase of a driver relative to another. A cap or inductor shift the phase by 90deg in the opposite direction. Long story short yes the phase between drivers depends on the crossover and their acoustic center distance delta. BTW, anyone trying to build a crossover for these things just using a formula from the web (say LR2) is not going to get the desired response. Crossover design also depends on the impedance profile of the driver which is not constant but must be taken into account for accurate results.


----------



## pdupiano

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *SilverCans* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The only reason someone would wire a driver in reverse is to get better phase matching with the other drivers. Depending on the distance one driver is relative to the other, sound of driver A can reach the listener before B, if they are far enough apart, they could be 180deg out of phase with each other. Now, that said, adding crossovers also alter the phase of a driver relative to another. A cap or inductor shift the phase by 90deg in the opposite direction. Long story short yes the phase between drivers depends on the crossover and their acoustic center distance delta. BTW, anyone trying to build a crossover for these things just using a formula from the web (say LR2) is not going to get the desired response. Crossover design also depends on the impedance profile of the driver which is not constant but must be taken into account for accurate results._

 

The signals aren't periodic, so your point regarding the drivers being far enough to be out of phase with one another doesn't work. It would simply be a lag in the signal if one driver is far enough from the other (time lag, not frequency shift or phase shift). In the case of wiring the drivers backwards, you get a phase shift of 180 while still having the signals interact at the same time canceling each other out, and that is different from what you are describing. In your case, you would be correct if the signals were periodic, but since they are not, one signal will never be 180 out of phase with respect to the other one due to distance. In that case you would be worried about time lag rather than phase (normally they are the same thing in periodic signals eg. sine waves, but they are different for non-periodic signals). 

 As far as adding caps/inductors go, they are predictable, since the drivers are inductors. Or can be modeled as inductors or if you prefer can be modeled as a combination of the two, in which case equations you would find on the net do work. And your point regarding using caps and inductors that induce 90 degree phase shifts, refer to phase shifts in the current, not voltage (ie. the signal). Besides, the driver is an inductor, and you throw in a cap for the filter/cross over and you get a current in phase with the voltage signal.


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pdupiano* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Can you elaborate on what this would achieve? As of right now by running one driver completely out of phase of another, you are in fact canceling out the signals except for points where the two signals differ, but I would suspect that if those are in the range of 10db whereas everything else is 120db or so, then whatever you get from that reversed + normally wired driver is inaudible._

 

I will elaborate it but not right now.
 For you pdupiano: think of driver and how it performs then imagine adding a damper, high value like 4700 Ohm, now approximately you know where the HF or rather MF starts to roll-off. If you get it, think about mid and high freq. driver. Add a cap (value appropiate to the frequency of rolling off LF driver mids). Now you have two slopes. If you reverse one driver ONLY THE SLOPES will cancel each other out. The rest of the frequency response will stay the same.

 MaoDi take a closer look on your IEMs and try to locate how your drivers are wired.


----------



## marozie

On a slightly different topic, does anyone have suggestions for a good mold making material? I tried silicone caulk (twice) and it just didn't dry through (silicone caulk cures via contact with moisture in the air, so it hardens from the outside in -- if the caulk is more than about a centimeter thick it just won't cure all the way through, or at least not in a reasonable amount of time). I have my earmolds in modeling clay right now, but I suspect this isn't going to work since I don't think I'll be able to get them out with out cracking/destroying the mold. Would latex work? Or is there some kind of subtrate + hardener (like a two part expoxy, that isn't air dry dependent) that cures to a flexible, rubber-like state?


----------



## SilverCans

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pdupiano* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The signals aren't periodic, so your point regarding the drivers being far enough to be out of phase with one another doesn't work. It would simply be a lag in the signal if one driver is far enough from the other (time lag, not frequency shift or phase shift). In the case of wiring the drivers backwards, you get a phase shift of 180 while still having the signals interact at the same time canceling each other out, and that is different from what you are describing. In your case, you would be correct if the signals were periodic, but since they are not, one signal will never be 180 out of phase with respect to the other one due to distance. In that case you would be worried about time lag rather than phase (normally they are the same thing in periodic signals eg. sine waves, but they are different for non-periodic signals). _

 

Around the XO freq where drivers are crossed over, phase matters. How is this resolved? By matching the acoustic centers of the drivers. Ever wonder why some manufactures slant their baffles or offset the tweeter? This is why. Ever wonder when XO designers are measuring their design they reverse the polarity of the tweeter to see how deep the null is at the XO freq? This tells them how good the the phase matching is, the deeper the null the more in phase the two drives are when wired with normal polarity. It doesnt have to be a period signal, both drivers are playing the same freq around the XO point (overlap), if the acoustic centers are not aligned you get phase mismatches when the listener is some units of distance away from the drivers. The comb meshing or combining of the sound will cause cancellations and or amplification. read this

  Quote:


 As far as adding caps/inductors go, they are predictable, since the drivers are inductors. Or can be modeled as inductors or if you prefer can be modeled as a combination of the two, in which case equations you would find on the net do work. And your point regarding using caps and inductors that induce 90 degree phase shifts, refer to phase shifts in the current, not voltage (ie. the signal). Besides, the driver is an inductor, and you throw in a cap for the filter/cross over and you get a current in phase with the voltage signal. 
 

Sorry, but unless you include the impedance model of your speaker when designing an XO you will not get the right result. Using a simple formula like a high pass LR2(Linkwitz-Riley second order) off the net that just asks/takes a nominal inductor value for the driver say 8mh, will produce the wrong result because speakers do not have a fixed inductance across frequency, if they did then the text book formula would work. Ever see an impedance plot for a driver? Ever wonder why manufactures design zobel networks to try and flatten out the impedance response?


----------



## setmenu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *marozie* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_On a slightly different topic, does anyone have suggestions for a good mold making material? I tried silicone caulk (twice) and it just didn't dry through (silicone caulk cures via contact with moisture in the air, so it hardens from the outside in -- if the caulk is more than about a centimeter thick it just won't cure all the way through, or at least not in a reasonable amount of time). I have my earmolds in modeling clay right now, but I suspect this isn't going to work since I don't think I'll be able to get them out with out cracking/destroying the mold. Would latex work? Or is there some kind of subtrate + hardener (like a two part expoxy, that isn't air dry dependent) that cures to a flexible, rubber-like state?_

 

Use RTV [room temperature vulacanising] silicone rubber designed for mould making.
 a few suggestions for rubber& resin sources : 

Silicone elastomers for rubber fabrication - Dow Corning

Smooth-On - Mold Making and Casting Materials for a World of Applications!

Welcome to Huntsman Advanced Materials

 You will need to make sure that any resin you use is safe for long term skin contact.

 For best quality mouldings a vacuum chamber is used for removing air bubbles from resin/rubber. 



 .


----------



## marozie

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *setmenu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Use RTV [room temperature vulacanising] silicone rubber designed for mould making.
 ._

 

Thanks for the rec.

 Here are some progress pics. First, my original, failed method for making molds:




 The silicone never cured through.

 In the meantime, I started working on the cable. I got some 30 awg ecowire from alpha wire. The ecowire has a biodegradeable jacket, which actually isn't why I bought it. They said this new polymer is 50% thinner than PVC or vinyl, and that it's much softer. I don't know about the softer part, this stuff is still a bit stiff. This is a pic of the Y joint:





 I'm using D-sub pins that I got from Tyco/AMP. They're really small in diameter which is perfect, but they're a bit long. I'm not sure how well it's going to work trying to embed the female into the shell of the IEM:





 Also, the drivers arrived! Can you guess which is which?:




 From left to right is WBFK, DTEC, and CI. Notice WBFK is so small it actually fits _inside_ the acoustic tubing.

 This is one side wired up. In the process of wiring the other side the solder pads on the other WBFK driver fell off. No joke. I soldered my leads to them and it just broke off. So now I'm waiting on an RMA replacement.


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *marozie* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is one side wired up. In the process of wiring the other side the solder pads on the other WBFK driver fell off. No joke. I soldered my leads to them and it just broke off. So now I'm waiting on an RMA replacement._

 

Amazing work mate!
 The reason why the soldering pads broke is too high soldering temperature. Drivers shouldn't be exposed for temps higher than 85*C Other way you can damage the driver due to overheating.
 I had the same issue with one of my TWFK driver the soldering pad broke into a half. I will deassemble the driver and post the pics 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 You can also glue drivers with adhesive.
 I'd say that WBFK tube is too long. I can't see a capacitor on your photos, are you going to use one?
 I'd suggest you to rewokr y-splitter. Just use more heat shrinks, make it more durable


----------



## marozie

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *piotrus-g* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Amazing work mate!_

 

Thanks!

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *piotrus-g* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The reason why the soldering pads broke is too high soldering temperature. Drivers shouldn't be exposed for temps higher than 85*C Other way you can damage the driver due to overheating._

 

I was actually quite careful not to apply heat for too long. After the pads broke off I looked at the driver with a 30x loupe and the leads coming out of the case were actually quite corroded with a green patina.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *piotrus-g* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'd say that WBFK tube is too long._

 

I was going to make WBFK tube the shortest and CI tube the longest, but will only trim then after the shells are made.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *piotrus-g* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I can't see a capacitor on your photos, are you going to use one?_

 

I have 1uf SMD caps that I was planning on incorporating, this was just for testing purposes.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *piotrus-g* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'd suggest you to rewokr y-splitter. Just use more heat shrinks, make it more durable_

 

I'm going to bolster the Y joint, either with more shrink tubing or some epoxy then shrink tubing.


----------



## piotrus-g

Happy to hear that 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Well I also took a look on my TWFK and was able to see wires but I haven't noticed any oxidation or corrosion.

 Off topic, I am waiting for shrink tubes and I'll be making solid silver core wire to my IEMs


----------



## marozie

Here's some more progress pics. I got some two part RTV silicone from Smooth-On and it worked like a charm:










 I made up some of the acrylic with a couple drops of purple translucent enamel that I happened to have. It's really thin and takes a few hours to thinken up, so I just filled up the molds and after 30 minutes or so I will pour out the excess to create the shells:


----------



## marozie

I've hit a minor snag in the road. The compound I was using to try and make the shells was Easy Cast clear casting expoxy, which takes 24 hours to soft cure and 72 hours to hard cure. Because it takes so long to harden it all drained into the bottom (ear canal) part of the molds. So this stuff isn't going to work. Smoot On makes a crystal clear two part urethane that cures in 90 min., but my local art supply store doesn't carry it, so I just placed on order online. Probably won't have it until Wednesday. It's all these peripheral supplies that are really tacking onto the cost of the project.

 EDIT: Actually, can someone clarify, am I going about this the right way? Do I want to first make a hard urethane/epoxy shell that I fill with the electronics which then gets filled with more urethane/epoxy, or do I just put the electronics in the silicone earmolds and filled them up? It seems like making a shell would help to ensure that your sound ports are lined up the right way and that non of your components are going to be piercing the skin of the final cast, but it's making this much trickier.


----------



## pdupiano

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *SilverCans* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Around the XO freq where drivers are crossed over, phase matters. How is this resolved? By matching the acoustic centers of the drivers. Ever wonder why some manufactures slant their baffles or offset the tweeter? This is why. Ever wonder when XO designers are measuring their design they reverse the polarity of the tweeter to see how deep the null is at the XO freq? This tells them how good the the phase matching is, the deeper the null the more in phase the two drives are when wired with normal polarity. It doesnt have to be a period signal, both drivers are playing the same freq around the XO point (overlap), if the acoustic centers are not aligned you get phase mismatches when the listener is some units of distance away from the drivers. The comb meshing or combining of the sound will cause cancellations and or amplification. read this



 Sorry, but unless you include the impedance model of your speaker when designing an XO you will not get the right result. Using a simple formula like a high pass LR2(Linkwitz-Riley second order) off the net that just asks/takes a nominal inductor value for the driver say 8mh, will produce the wrong result because speakers do not have a fixed inductance across frequency, if they did then the text book formula would work. Ever see an impedance plot for a driver? Ever wonder why manufactures design zobel networks to try and flatten out the impedance response?_

 

Read the Rane article, pretty informative, but understand that the design parameters that are contained in the article are not particularly applicable in iem design, primarily your number one complaint (and crucial point of the article) regarding phase issues. Fact of the matter is, custom iems have 1 listener and 1 location at all times and it isn't necessary to ensure that the iems sound the same over a wide range. To simplify things in terms of the article, you are one of the listener's who is ALWAYS in the center of the stage and in line with the speakers. And when that happens, all of the complaints you've brought up go away. 

 Additionally, your argument for your side isn't convincing, I'm actually surprised I even read the article (but glad I did) and subsequently went through my textbooks on filters. You cannot make an argument of the validity of some methods based on a companies activities. What I mean by this is that you continually state "Ever wonder why.....this tells them how...." I think I only need to state one example why this is just a bad form of arguing: Bush invaded Iraq due to WMD's, this tells us that WMD's were stored in Iraq -Obviously this was not the case. 

 Additionally, frequency dependent impedance will affect crossovers, but only to a certain extent, and these can be taken care of by modifying the speaker case design (usually not the case with iems). Impedance is also relatively constant everywhere except for the driver's resonant frequency, which affects its frequency response, if you create a cutoff before and after the resonant frequency, you maybe able to get around the problem. 

 The last sentence in your first paragraph points out the real issue that people need to consider -how the sound waves interact with each other. That "phase" and time delay is what needs to be considered, and not the phase/time delay that is considered in the crossover circuit. The crossover circuit, no matter how well and perfectly designed, is still limited by the mechanical designs of a speaker. I can take any "perfectly" designed speaker system with the flattest response right now, place it in a new enclosure and I'd get FAR from a flat response. 

 piotrus-g:
  Quote:


 "For you pdupiano: think of driver and how it performs then imagine adding a damper, high value like 4700 Ohm, now approximately you know where the HF or rather MF starts to roll-off. If you get it, think about mid and high freq. driver. Add a cap (value appropiate to the frequency of rolling off LF driver mids). Now you have two slopes. If you reverse one driver ONLY THE SLOPES will cancel each other out. The rest of the frequency response will stay the same." 
 

Sorry but that really doesn't clear up the issue. The issue I'm worried about with hooking up the drivers in opposite polarities is that the sound waves would cancel each other. As Silvercans pointed out, this type of test is done for speakers to check the "nullity" in other words, how well the drivers are matched by checking how well they cancel each other out. So when you hook up one driver backwards, and the other forwards -you are ultimately canceling out the audio signal. In the case you stated above, you would actually be taking out the whole mid range of the sound. Lets say you have something like this:
 Driver 1: -------
 Driver 2: __/--\_
 Combined: -\_/--

 Remember that wiring a driver 180 degrees out of phase does nothing to the frequency response of a driver. it will still reproduce the sound as it always has. The only issue is when this combines and mixes with the sound waves coming out of the other driver.


----------



## marozie

I'm not going to get involved in the crossover/wiring one driver in reverse conversation, but I was just re-reading DCinLBV's response to my initial question about the shell making process and he didn't make a "shell" that was filled with electronics and then back filled with more urethane. He cut holes in the end of the ear canal section of the molds to feed the acoustic tubing through and then just put everything in the molds and filled them up. Making an actual shell first seems like the ideal approach, but I don't know if it's really possible for a DIYer. I'd like some more feedback before I go any further though. I know Guiseppe is an audiologist and probably has access to equipment that I don't have, but he made shells first, for example.


----------



## cyberspyder

What about letting it set for 10 minutes, pouring out excess, letting it cure, then do it again? Would take longer, but it may negate the problem you're having.


----------



## marozie

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cyberspyder* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What about letting it set for 10 minutes, pouring out excess, letting it cure, then do it again? Would take longer, but it may negate the problem you're having._

 

That's what I tried initially, but the epoxy I was using took too long to set. I've ordered some urethane that sets in 90 minutes so I'll try it with that. If that doesn't work I might just use DCinLBV's method.


----------



## marozie

Without further guidance I decided to just take the plunge. I fitted the drivers (with tubing), wiring, and connectors in the hard modeling clay molds I had made. After that I just moved the setup into my flexible urethane molds (the Smooth On I bought is urethane not silicone) and filled them up with the Easy Cast epoxy (I took photos of these steps that I will post later). That stuff takes about 48 hours to cure, so I'm on pins and needles for a while. I'm guessing there is going to be a considerable amount of post processing (cutting, sanding, shaping, some final clear coats), but I will document all of that as well.

 Fitting everything in the molds is without a doubt the hardest part. Since I have three drivers and couldn't think of a way to easily merge two pieces of acoustic tubing into one, I have a triple bore design. The acoustic tubing I got from Microsonic has considerable wall thickness and using it to make a triple bore wouldn't have worked, so I ended up using 1/16th inch heat shrink tubing, which actually has the exact same (or very close) ID but considerably smaller OD. The only problem is that with such a thin wall it collapses if you try to curve it too much (unlike the extremely flexible tubing I got from Microsonic). With flexible tubing that curves easily the drivers can be placed just about anywhere within the mold which would have made the whole process a hell of a lot easier; with tubing that doesn't curve as much I had to fit all three drivers in more or less a straight shot, which was a big fat pain in my butt.


----------



## marozie

Man, this thread has gone cold. Well, I've made a bunch of progress, and I would apologize for not having posted pics, but it looks like no one's checking in anyway. I do have pics though, I'll post them this weekend. I have a question in the meantime, maybe Drew or Guiseppe if they read this can chime in since they've gone through this: I had to sand down the ear canal section quite a bit to get it to fit in my ear. This was because where your ear canal turns in towards the center of your head there's a bit of a cavity which is wider than the section of ear canal previous to it. With the soft foam rubber molds it's no problem getting them in and out because it's flexible -- with the hard IEM this section would not go into my ear, so I had to sand it down. So I can get it in my ear now, but it doesn't seal very well. Since I've never had custom made IEMs I don't know what I should expect. Should these be sealing like earplugs? (I assume yes), because right now the one that I've worked on doesn't. Is this just a matter of trial and error? Sanding/shaping until they fit right? Man, Drew made this look so easy...

 EDIT: I was just looking at a cross section of the ear canal and think I figured out what I'm doing wrong. Ear canal:






 This is basically the shape of the impression that I made, and thus the shape the hard IEM came out like as well:





 When I sanded it down I basically took out the curves, which left a straighter section of the same length, but leaves spacing that results in a sub-optimal seal, something like this:





 I think what I'll do (which, in retrospect I should have done first) is make some mock ups, hard casts of the soft impressions that I can play with to determine the optimal shape for comfort and seal.


----------



## marozie

Progress pics:

 This is the hard mold I used to fit the electronics:





 This is everything after fitting:





 Fitting everything in the mold for casting:





 You can't really see it, but this is after I poured in the resin:





 This is how the first one came out. There was an air bubble in the ear canal so the tip just broke off. One thing I realized while doing this is that if the cast doesn't come out right you can always redo it:





 This is the second one that more or less came out perfectly:










 This is after some sanding and shaping:


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *marozie* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is after some sanding and shaping:



_

 

Impressed is not even a good word here...
 Mate, perfect job!

 However, it seems you forgot to solder wires to the second TEC of DTEC driver... That driver has only negative terminal crossed, positive has to be wired separately


----------



## MaoDi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *piotrus-g* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Impressed is not even a good word here...
 Mate, perfect job!

 However, it seems you forgot to solder wires to the second TEC of DTEC driver... That driver has only negative terminal crossed, positive has to be wired separately_

 

NOt for the DTEC, both terminals are linked. Only the TWFK has the negative terminal linked.


----------



## marozie

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_NOt for the DTEC, both terminals are linked. Only the TWFK has the negative terminal linked._

 

Yes, Mao is correct, both terminals of DTEC are linked. I'm currently recasting them to try and get a better fit and seal. I have listened to them briefly, and it's a bit premature to offer impressions, but I can say that they are very powerful in the low and midrange.


----------



## Llama16

I'm extremely impressed with your work!! It's amazing. I so wish this really works out and am very curious where it stands amongst commercial IEMs.


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_NOt for the DTEC, both terminals are linked. Only the TWFK has the negative terminal linked._

 

Pardon my mistake then.
 Nevertheless great job, really.


----------



## marozie

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Llama16* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm extremely impressed with your work!! It's amazing. I so wish this really works out and am very curious where it stands amongst commercial IEMs._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *piotrus-g* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Pardon my mistake then.
 Nevertheless great job, really._

 

Thanks guys. I just poured the recasts, so they should be done tomorrow. I can't wait to spend some time with them in my ears


----------



## marozie

I've hit a somewhat minor/somewhat major setback. I don't know if it's because it's been raining non-stop here and is thus really humid, but I tried to recast them twice and each time the resin stuck to the molds significantly. Compounding the problem is that I finially got the Smooth On Crystal Clear that sets in 90 minutes and it doesn't stick to the Casting Craft (must be significantly different materials). So both times I tried to recast I got a layer of urethane rubber stuck to the IEMs that I had to grind off. The second time I did this I ground down too far and destroyed a WBFK. With no real way of being able to replace it in situ I decided to chop them up to remove the drivers and essentially start from scratch. I'm thinking this might be a blessing in disguise (sort of). Now that I've done it I've learned some things not to do:

 1) don't use heat shrink tubing as acoustic tubing. It doesn't fair well during sanding and the result is jagged edges that actually really hurt my ears when I tried to insert them, which incidentally is partially what led to:

 2) don't grind down the finished IEMs too much or you'll be left with a crappy seal. I think the reason I felt I had to do this was partly because of (1) and partly because when they first come out of the molds they aren't very smooth and are therefore difficult to insert into your ears. I looked on Microsonic's site more carefully and realized that I bought the thick walled tubing, they offer a medium walled tubing which I think will work a lot better. Also, I was looking on Westone's website and they show some pictures of the manufacturing process. There's a picture of someone holding an IEM/earplug next to a grinding wheel, but I'm guessing it's a very smooth grit, and there's a picture of someone dipping one in a vat of epoxy. So I think the proper way to finish them is to either sand them by hand with sandpaper/emory cloth so that you just take out some of the roughness, or if you're going to use a rotary tool using a very light grit bit (I was using a bit for grinding metal). And then, unless you're going to make a big enough batch of epoxy that you can dip them in (which would of course waste quite a bit of material), either painting on some polyurethane/laquer/whatever or using a spray can. That will probably result in a pretty smooth finish.

 3) don't use an epoxy that takes more than an hour or so to set up. This isn't just impatience on my part: a) if you cut holes in your molds to position your acoustic tubing and the resin stays liquid for hours it will end up slowly leaking out, b) you have to position your connectors and if the resin doesn't set somewhat quickly that positioning might shift somewhat, c) if you have to make repairs and you're using something that takes 72 hours to set that time really adds up.

 And 4) from what I heard of them it sounded like CI and DTEC were dominating WBFK, which is probably due to the fact that the former have SPLs close to 135dB and the later is more like 115dB. So I'm going to use miniature Xicon single digit ohm resistors (turned out to be some random number, 7 point something, because of available inventory) on CI and DTEC to try and limit them a bit. I don't know of a way to calculate how input current translates into the output in SPL so I'm just taking a shot in the dark.


----------



## marozie

Also, here's a "blank" that I made to play around with. I didn't sand/smooth it at all, but I did take a little off the corner indicated by the arrow. As you can see from the original impression there's a pretty hard corner right there which prevented it from going in smoothly. But once I took that corner down a bit it went it pretty easily and basically isolates as well as the original impression does (which I now use as earplugs). I'm going to play around with this one to figure out the best way to get a smooth finish on it without effecting the shape too much. I know Drew said he used clear nail polish, so that's an option.


----------



## Bilavideo

Good work!


----------



## GiuseppeItalia

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *marozie* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_



_

 

good, very good, Mark!
 I don't think you have taken off important material from the shell, you followed the anatomy of the ear canal, very good the first and the begin of second corner, excellent depth, you were right sanding at that point, because shells go in the ear canal without pains.
 Pay attention to remember how to direct the sound output hole.
 you can do better but you are a beginner and my vote it's 10+
 Many facts and few words!

 PS: answering your question a few days ago, yes I use empty shells, it is better to place the electronics at a later time, the work is more clean and precise, the procedure is basically the same used in "in the ear" hearing aids industry. Very important: Materials are biocompatible.


----------



## marozie

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GiuseppeItalia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_good, very good, Mark!
 I don't think you have taken off important material from the shell, you followed the anatomy of the ear canal, very good the first and the begin of second corner, excellent depth, you were right sanding at that point, because shells go in the ear canal without pains.
 Pay attention to remember how to direct the sound output hole.
 you can do better but you are a beginner and my vote it's 10+
 Many facts and few words!._

 

Thank you Guiseppe! Well, they are finally done, more or less. I still don't have a completely smooth finish, but I've already put so many coats I want to wait until they've dried completely before I put more on.

 Here's a pic of them after fitting into the molds. Note, I used a ~7 ohm resistor as the anode to both DTEC and CI, and a 1uf cap as the anode to WBFK:





 Here's a pic of the bottom. I cut holes at the ends of the ear canals to run the acoustic tubing through, and then sealed it off with some 5 minute cure epoxy. It's great because it doesn't adhere permanently to either the tubing of the mold, so when I was done I basically just cracked it off. Note that there's a filter in one of the tubes that obviously isn't deep enough, I just inserted it for testing purposes.





 Here are pics after I poured the molds. I again used a few drops of translucent purple enamel to color the epoxy (which I think is a plastic urethane).










 And here are some pics after the final touches. Basically, I smoothed out the roughest sections with an agressive bit, but was very careful not to take out too much material. Then I used one of those wire brush bits to smooth it out some, and the round any edges. Then I just sprayed them with maybe 6 coats of high gloss clear acrylic.















 I have a white filter in WBFK and DTEC and a red filter in CI. Before they were poured when I still had them as mock ups I tested them by plugging two of the tubes at a time so that I could make sure that I could isolate each individual driver, make sure it was working, try to gauge the balance, etc. The resistors balance the larger drivers with WBFK perfectly, couldn't be better. And the cap on WBFK results in crystal clear, shimering highs. When I was testing them and isolating each individual driver it was amazing, I could clearly tell which driver was the high, the mid, and the low without even having them in my ears, that's how distinctly and acurately each one of them does it's thing. I have to tell you guys, this project sucked up a lot of cash, probably close to $400, and probably 30 - 40 hours of time (partly because I screwed up), but they sound amazing. They sound as good as full size cans. They produce a low end that puts my K701s to shame. I couldn't be happier. I just can't wait until I can have an extended session with them...


----------



## MaoDi

hey fantastic work! that looks great! I was wondering though, hope this doesn't happen. As how on earth are you going to replace the drivers if one of them dies or gets damaged?


----------



## marozie

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_how on earth are you going to replace the drivers if one of them dies or gets damaged?_

 

Mao, come on man, that's like asking someone who just bought a fancy new car what they're going to do if it ends up getting totalled 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I mean, clearly there is no way to replace anything that's encased in the epoxy. I guess that would be one clear advantage to using hollow shells, but I still have no idea how you would make those. As I was forced to do, it is possible (and actually not that difficult) to chop them up using wire cutters, the epoxy doesn't actually stick to any of the components so once you get deep enough into the material you can just kind of peel it away from the various elements. So in the event that one of the three drivers in a unit died you could salvage the other two, although you would more or less be starting from scratch in having to fabricate a new one.


----------



## MaoDi

Haha, hey gotta expect the worst right? just another thing. So this is epoxy as in...like super glue epoxy? Just wondering as although the work and all is fantastic, just wondering if perspiration would cause this epoxy to release any chemicals that we could absorb and throughout time intoxicate us...


----------



## Llama16

Wow you did it!! They look amazing, really.
 Do get to know them better and tell us your impressions afterwards.


----------



## marozie

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So this is epoxy as in...like super glue epoxy? Just wondering ... if perspiration would cause this epoxy to release any chemicals that we could absorb and throughout time intoxicate us..._

 

Well, 1) super glue isn't really an epoxy, and 2) super glue is cyanoacrylate -- cyanide is any compound containing a cyano group, which means that super glue is technically cyanide. Epoxies are a whole different ball of wax, they "thermoset" via a chemical reaction which is catalyzed by adding the hardener (a polyamine) to the resin (an epoxide), and the two polymers are permanently linked by covalent bonds to form a co-polymer. But they can have hazardous chemicals in them. I used Smooth On Crystal Clear 202, which is a plastic urethane (or more accurately, a polyurethane elastomer). Looking over the MSDS it's a bit unclear what the safety of the co-polymerized material (the cured product) is because each chemical is listed separately and referenced in its respective liquid phase. The good news is that neither is mutagenic (mutagens cause DNA mutations = cancer), and that the only potential skin contact hazard is "irritation." All of that being said, I coated them with Krylon high gloss acrylic so what ever the potential chemical interactions with the urethane are somewhat moot. The MSDS for Krylon is similarly vague, not specifying differences between its liquid and solid phases, with "prolonged or repeated exposure" leading to potential skin "irritation." The most hazardous chemical constituent listed is toluene, which is a benzene derivative (benzene is a known carcinogen), but it's also not water soluble so you're not going to absorb it through your skin when you sweat. The thing about spray paints is that most of their hazardous chemical constituents are the volatile organic compounds that are the solvents that keep the paint in liquid phase, with the paint (or acrylic in this case) hardening as they evaporate off. So while toluene might be hazardous, it's also a VOC, so there shouldn't be much of it remaining once it has completely hardened (and de-gassed).

 It would be interesting to know what kinds of compounds professional manufacturers use for this. Maybe since you have some contacts, Mao, you could inquire?


----------



## marozie

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Llama16* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wow you did it!! They look amazing, really.
 Do get to know them better and tell us your impressions afterwards._

 

Thanks! I feel like showing them to everyone I talk to at work, but then I remember that they a) most likely wouldn't know what the hell they are, and b) probably wouldn't be half as impressed as any of you guys 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I've been listening to them on and off all morning. The Krylon is still degassing so I'm hesitant to leave them in for too increasing my skin contact time with the VOCs.

 On a slightly different not, my cord is not really doing in for me. It's just too stiff, and I used 30 AWG wire which I figured would be like a wet noodle. Does anyone know where to source the kind of cable headphone manufactures use, the stuff that's coated in super soft rubber? I might just break down and by a cord from Westone, it would probably cost as much as having to by a spool of wire anyway...


----------



## marozie

Just looking through Westone's website, they offer the following earpiece materials: acrylic, vinyl, silicone, polyethylene. They have an option with the acrylic of adding something that makes the material body temperature reactive, which I assume means they get softer as your body heat warms them up. Pretty cool. Again, these base materials aren't going to be intrinsically hazardous, it's the solvents they're carried in while in liquid form that are dangerous, so my guess would be that in most cases after the material has hardened it is more or less safe, but I guess it does merrit further study...


----------



## pdupiano

Why don't u use smooth on's lifecast material


----------



## marozie

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pdupiano* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why don't u use smooth on's lifecast material_

 

Um, well, because Lifecast is for making _casts_.

 EDIT: Sorry, that was kind of dick-ish. I think the Lifecast material is for making a cast of a body part, like a hand. You then use that cast as a negative that you would pour plaster or something in to make the positive, which is the reproduction. Since your hand is a positive space and your ear canal is a negative space it's a bit confusing, but making a cast of your hand (a negative) is analogous to making an impression of your ear canal (a positive). The other confusing bit is that the end product of reproducing the shape of your hand, a positive space, is also a positive space - hence the term reproduction. The end product of making an IEM is not a reproduction of your ear canal, it is a positive space designed to fill a negative space, so there's an extra step involved: making an impression of your ear canal (a positive), molding the impression (a negative), casting the IEM (a positive). An additional point of confusion might be that the product or process of using a cast -- the cast is the mold -- is sometimes denoted by the word cast, i.e. cast-iron. The shape made out of iron (postive) is not the cast, the mold (negative) used to make the iron is the cast. But again, that process is for making a reproduction of a positive space, which is not what we're doing here.


----------



## revolink24

Wow, those look excellent. I can't wait to hear your impressions, and sounds like even though it was an expensive project it might even have been good value for money.


----------



## marozie

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *revolink24* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wow, those look excellent. I can't wait to hear your impressions, and sounds like even though it was an expensive project it might even have been good value for money._

 

Thanks! Keep in mind, part of the expense was due to trial and error -- if you don't screw up it should cost more like $300. But then again, I went with a WBFK ($40 x 2) - DTEC ($50 x 2) - CI ($25 x 2) set up. As was discussed a ways back TWFK is a dual driver that consists of WBFK (tweeter) and FK (woofer) and only costs $10 more that WBFK alone. I would imagine a simpler TWFK ($50 x 2) - CI ($25 x 2) set up, which would still be a 3 way design, would sound quite good as well, and would probably only cost $200. If you think about it, the biggest expense (i.e. that which provides the smallest value per cost) are the materials needed to make the shells. The Smooth On rubber urethane was $20, but it's probably enough to make a couple dozen molds; and the Smooth On plastic urethane was $35 and is probably enough to make a _few_ dozen shells. So the actual cost of making one set of molds and one set up shells is about $1 each, but of course you can't buy just enough material to make one set. So it would be ideal to find a few people who want to do this and purchase the materials together to spread around the cost.


----------



## SuryA

Maybe you guys can help me.
 I've got a pair of livewires (dual drivers), and one of the drivers has disconnected from the acoustic tubing, its rattling in there.
 This has already happened to both earphones and I had sent them back to the manufacturer as they were under warranty, but I'm overseas and shipping fees are ridiculous.
 Now theyre not under warranty any more so I'd like to open it out and just pop it back in place.
 I have no idea how to open them up. They're not full though and there has to be a way since they've already been repaired once without being remolded. 
 Theres a face plate but it seems pretty flush with the rest of the piece. 
 Any ideas on how to get it to come off?


----------



## MaoDi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *marozie* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks! Keep in mind, part of the expense was due to trial and error -- if you don't screw up it should cost more like $300. But then again, I went with a WBFK ($40 x 2) - DTEC ($50 x 2) - CI ($25 x 2) set up. As was discussed a ways back TWFK is a dual driver that consists of WBFK (tweeter) and FK (woofer) and only costs $10 more that WBFK alone. I would imagine a simpler TWFK ($50 x 2) - CI ($25 x 2) set up, which would still be a 3 way design, would sound quite good as well, and would probably only cost $200. If you think about it, the biggest expense (i.e. that which provides the smallest value per cost) are the materials needed to make the shells. The Smooth On rubber urethane was $20, but it's probably enough to make a couple dozen molds; and the Smooth On plastic urethane was $35 and is probably enough to make a few dozen shells. So the actual cost of making one set of molds and one set up shells is about $1 each, but of course you can't buy just enough material to make one set. So it would be ideal to find a few people who want to do this and purchase the materials together to spread around the cost._

 

If you plan to make a lot of pairs and buy drivers along with someone else who's wanting to buy them. You'll save money on the drivers as well, so each pair will be cheaper as well.


----------



## pdupiano

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *marozie* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Um, well, because Lifecast is for making casts.

 EDIT: Sorry, that was kind of dick-ish. I think the Lifecast material is for making a cast of a body part, like a hand. You then use that cast as a negative that you would pour plaster or something in to make the positive, which is the reproduction. Since your hand is a positive space and your ear canal is a negative space it's a bit confusing, but making a cast of your hand (a negative) is analogous to making an impression of your ear canal (a positive). The other confusing bit is that the end product of reproducing the shape of your hand, a positive space, is also a positive space - hence the term reproduction. The end product of making an IEM is not a reproduction of your ear canal, it is a positive space designed to fill a negative space, so there's an extra step involved: making an impression of your ear canal (a positive), molding the impression (a negative), casting the IEM (a positive). An additional point of confusion might be that the product or process of using a cast -- the cast is the mold -- is sometimes denoted by the word cast, i.e. cast-iron. The shape made out of iron (postive) is not the cast, the mold (negative) used to make the iron is the cast. But again, that process is for making a reproduction of a positive space, which is not what we're doing here._

 

You already have your negative space (the current mold that you're using). I'm suggesting using the body double silicone as the material you use for the actual custom iem since it is known to be safe on the skin.


----------



## piotrus-g

Wow these look pretty amazing! Great job once again.

 Looking forward to your impressions.

 Meanwhile I've finished my custom cable. Well it is very, I mean very, microphonic and a bit stiff ( only a bit) but the sound... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 all I can say is trrific. I am not/wasn't "cable freak" and I didn't hear much differences between cables. However this silver solid core swept me of my feet. Stock super.fi ultimate ears cable was muddy and somehow bass lacking. My cable get me totally different sound, very clear and super detailed yet dynamic with lushy mids and puchy bass. Now I feel like listen to good hifi not just earphones.
 I'll post pics later.


----------



## SuryA

Ok I've been through most of this thread, at least what you guys have been doin and screw the livewires, my seal isn't as good as it used to be and this look like the ultimate diy project.
 Sorry to ask you probably said this somewhere but with all the discussion I've seemed to missed it, marozie, what kind of internal cabling/crossover did you do finally?


----------



## SilverCans

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *SuryA* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ok I've been through most of this thread, at least what you guys have been doin and screw the livewires, my seal isn't as good as it used to be and this look like the ultimate diy project.
 Sorry to ask you probably said this somewhere but with all the discussion I've seemed to missed it, marozie, what kind of internal cabling/crossover did you do finally?_

 

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f6/hom...ml#post6489544


----------



## SilverCans

marozie what was your motivation behind the DTEC? I remember looking at the response and it had a series of peaks one after the other instead of being flat.


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *SilverCans* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_marozie what was your motivation behind the DTEC? I remember looking at the response and it had a series of peaks one after the other instead of being flat._

 

DTEC driver has very nice powerful output. Especially when it comes to bass and midrange. The peaks are easily smoothable with dampers so the final performance is much better and flater than that from the KA's graph. Since it's dual driver it has reduced vibrations and better output than single TEC driver.


----------



## marozie

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pdupiano* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You already have your negative space (the current mold that you're using). I'm suggesting using the body double silicone as the material you use for the actual custom iem since it is known to be safe on the skin._

 

Yeah, I suppose you could do that. I guess in my mind the idea of having a latex IEM seems dubious -- because it would be so flexible it would mean that the internals could move around, terminals could become detached, you could have shorts, etc.


----------



## marozie

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *SilverCans* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_marozie what was your motivation behind the DTEC? I remember looking at the response and it had a series of peaks one after the other instead of being flat._

 

In addition to piotrus' response, I went with DTEC based on comments made by a few in this thread touting it as being the premier mid range driver. Well, actually that's not even true. Initially I was going to try and use DTEC at a TWFK substitute and was talked out of it by others who said that it was more of a mid/low driver. And the fact that people said it was one of the best mid range drivers lead me to keep it and add WBFK as the tweeter. I would be really interested to hear a TWFK - CI setup with the WFBK and FK components of TWFK wired seperately. Is DTEC really worth the extra $100? Since the "FK component" of TWFK isn't specified it's hard to know how it stacks up against DTEC, but I would imagine that DTEC being a dual driver with the input signal being split between both elements is what leads to lower distortion. And since most music is in the midrange it makes sense that you wouldn't want to skimp in that area.

 Some initial impressions after maybe 10 hours of listening time via Cowon S9 to Mini^3: They are _incredibly_ well balanced. Again, I think the resistors on DTEC and CI put them in perfect accord with the output level of WBFK. The highs are superbly lush and detailed, not even a hint of harshness or sibilance. The low end is powerful and full. I wouldn't describe it as punchy per se, it actually seems to have more of the warmth you would expect from a coil driver. I'm wondering if this can be influenced by the material of the IEM. It kind of makes sense to me that a rigid but elastic material (like the one I used) would color the resonance in the low frequency. This being the first set of custom molded IEMs I've ever had, it's also amazing how well they isolate and how comfortable they are. They isolate better than any earplugs I've ever used, and although I haven't had them in for more than a couple hours at a time, there's absolutely no fatigue. I honestly don't even notice them being in my ears after a while. Again, having never heard high end custom molded IEMs it's hard to say how these stack up against comparable commericially available three way designs, but they sound pretty damn good, and I could imagine them being on par with a model costing two- to three-times as much.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *piotrus-g* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Meanwhile I've finished my custom cable. Well it is very, I mean very, microphonic and a bit stiff._

 

Haha. This is exactly the case with the cable that I made. I broke down an ordered one from Westone.


----------



## pdupiano

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *marozie* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yeah, I suppose you could do that. I guess in my mind the idea of having a latex IEM seems dubious -- because it would be so flexible it would mean that the internals could move around, terminals could become detached, you could have shorts, etc._

 

Remember how you used epoxy to hold the tubes together? Why not do something similar by creating an epoxy blob to hold all of the drivers and circuitry together and then simply use that as the "base." I'm pretty sure its silicone and not latex, only reason that would matter is if the lifecast material was latex, I wouldn't use it for fear of creating a perfect seal (no air could go in and out at all). Silicone on the other hand might be a bit more breathable but would still create a very strong seal. The plus side is that silicone maybe more comfortable to use because it is a softer material.


----------



## SuryA

Wouldn't a majority of soft materials also deteriorate considerably quickly? I mean even if you have the materials to remold them every so often, its not the most practical. I'm not too sure of the point of doing this other than a little extra comfort (but considering that hard molded iems are generally comfy enough..) and a better seal, but once again with a hard shell thats not too much of a problem.
 I'd be scared actually for "everyday" use, as a soft material is going to adhere more to your ear on the way in and out, won't slip in as easily as smooth epoxy.


----------



## MaoDi

Can someone figure out how to make shells from Polycarbonate...


----------



## jrubins

B-e-a-u-tiful work, Marozie!

 I wonder, though, if you'd be willing to write a short post, a 'recipe' as it were for those of us having trouble reading through this *epic* thread.
 I'd like to know what you used to obtain your final results:
 What drivers/configuration
 cable
 crossover components (electric and acoustic)
 and what materials/methods to put it all together. 

 I'm especially curious on the tubing you used, I didn't see that referenced anywhere. 

 Again, that is truly impressive work. You are a pioneer and deserve a beer




 cheers, mate!

 James


----------



## marozie

Come on man, I know this thread is long, but everything I've done is in the last 6 pages, and I provided information that will answer all of your questions. I don't mean to be a dick, but every time a new person joins the thread they ask for a summary of everything that's been discussed. I'll put together a photo album at some point so that the steps of my build are condensed, but I don't have time to do it now.

 In other news, I'm sad to report that I woke up this morning with incredibly itchy ears. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Hopefully ear cancer is not to follow. Remember that guy Drew who coated his in clear nail polish? That strikes me as a really good idea. Nail polish has to be not only safe but non irritating since there's the possibility of prolonged or repeated contact with your skin. I'm thinking that if I buy a few jars of it, pour it into a shot glass lined with plastic wrap, and make a pool deep enough to submerge an IEM I could put on a perfectly smooth coating that would protect my skin from being irritated by the urethane. In reference to pdupiano's suggestion of using the Lifecast material, you could conceivably do the same kind of thing with that stuff. The plus side is that it would be a softer coating which might increase comfort, the down side is that they would no longer be translucent and I'm guessing it would peel off over time.


----------



## marozie

I looked up "allergy to epoxy resin" and found this article on DermNet NZ (NZ as in New Zealand):

Allergy to epoxy resin
 Epoxy resin is a chemical that is part of an epoxy resin system. Epoxy resin systems are used widely in industry because of their strong adhesive properties, chemical resistance and toughness. Common two-part epoxy resin systems contain epoxy resin, catalysts/curing agents, and diluents and/or other additives. Any of these chemicals on their own may cause irritant and/or allergic contact reactions.* Cured epoxy resin (the fully hardened combination of the epoxy resin system chemicals) should be non-irritating and non-sensitising.* 

What are the reactions to epoxy resin allergy?
 Typical allergic contact dermatitis reactions may occur in individuals allergic to epoxy resin or other components of an epoxy resin system. The uncured epoxy resin, hardener and diluent are powerful irritants and potent sensitisers. Skin contact with the hardening agent may cause severe burns. They can also cause a severe allergic contact dermatitis characterized by redness, swelling and itching. Skin should be washed with soap and water if any contact occurs. In addition, hardeners and diluents are more volatile than resin and may cause allergic reactions from breathing in fumes. *Cured epoxy resins are seldom a problem but it has been found that measurable amounts of uncured reagents may remain in the "cured" resin after 1 week. *

 So, as I guessed, the cured form of the epoxy shouldn't be hazardous, but the last sentence explains why I developed contact dermatitis.


----------



## pdupiano

I'd second the nail polish idea or perhaps you can check on something called liquid skin. Liquid skin is supposed to be a liquid bandage and I know some even come in the form of a spray can, so it might be easier to plug up the sound holes and just apply a coat or two on the iems. Good luck and I hope the irritation goes away.


----------



## SilverCans

what do UE, JH, and hearing-aid companies use? whatever it is should be obtainable, no?


----------



## SuryA

Thats just cyanolite (superglue), I don't think you can get a smooth coating with that and it will probably chip quite fast. 
 I'd say the irritation probably comes from the acrylic rather than the epoxy though..


----------



## marozie

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *SilverCans* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_what do UE, JH, and hearing-aid companies use? whatever it is should be obtainable, no?_

 

Well, again, the bases that they use are no different that what we have access to, like acrylic and urethane, as far as I've been able to gather. It's the solvents that are hazardous and they might have access to formulations that have fewer irritants, or just go through additional steps to remove them before they send the IEMs out. Professional manufacturers I'm sure cure the product in a vacuum chamber, which in addition to preventing bubbles in the final product would also suck out the solvents speeding up this process.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *SuryA* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'd say the irritation probably comes from the acrylic rather than the epoxy though.._

 

So, I never mentioned this, but the acrylic (Krylon) was taking way too long to dry in between coats and I was having to put on a ridiculous number of coats to achieve a smooth finish, so I ended up just grinding it off, preparing some more epoxy in a little pool, and dunking the IEMs in it. This left a perfectly smooth finish, but I started using them right after it cured, and apparently even though there's a 90 minute "de-casting" time it says on the container that it takes 2-3 days for the compound to fully cure. Again citing the "uncured reagents may remain in the 'cured' resin after 1 week" statement.


----------



## SuryA

Then maybe in a couple of days it'll be just fine!


----------



## SilverCans

Anyone give Star Micronics BAs a good listen?


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *SilverCans* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anyone give Star Micronics BAs a good listen?_

 

Have you listened to ER6i? I have. Very detailed but flat sound in terms of soundstage and response. Lack of bass and definition. 
 I have like 10 different Star Micronics drivers (incuding ER6i-like-drivers but I cant give them a listen. I'd have to make a shell for this purpose. It would take great amount of time and money.


----------



## SilverCans

piotrus-g you might be able to get away doing what the orignal poster of this thread did, wire them up and place them in a foam tip to give them a quick eval. What do you think? Never heard er6i btw.


----------



## marozie

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Can someone figure out how to make shells from Polycarbonate..._

 

Why polycarbonate? It seems like it's mostly used for extrusion molded stuff, soda bottles, etc.


----------



## MaoDi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *marozie* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why polycarbonate? It seems like it's mostly used for extrusion molded stuff, soda bottles, etc._

 

Because it's one of the strongest polymers out there. Why not use it?


----------



## marozie

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MaoDi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Because it's one of the strongest polymers out there. Why not use it?_

 

Well, the only reason would be that since it's usually used in extrusion molding I would assume that requires getting it really hot so that it's in a "molten" state. Ah, I'm looking on Wikipedia: "Polycarbonate has a glass transition temperature of about 150 °C (302 °F), so it softens gradually above this point and flows above about 300 °C (572 °F). Injection moulding is more difficult than other common thermoplastics owing to its non-Newtonian fluid flow behaviour."

 So, you have to get it really, really hot for it to be "liquid." I don't know how practical that would be, not to mention that it could damage any number of the electrical components, or the mold itself depending on what it's made out of. Plus, why do you need indestructable IEMs, just in case you run them over with your car?


----------



## MaoDi

Well yes! you never know!


----------



## DCinLBV

I found a clear acrylic nail polish gave a safe, glossy final coat without any polishing or buffing, but apply it lightly and give it at least a day to fully harden. I also let my epoxy cure for 5 days before applying it. 

 If you want hollow shells, you can use an old-school method of tumbling. Just prep your molds with some scrap tubing and wire bent into the shape of your sound ports. Lightly coat them in vasoline, or mold release. Put 20-30 ml of slow (at least 1 hour to set) curing resin in the molds and use painters tape, or something, to seal the backs of the mold. Double seal the mold in ziploc bags. Insert everything in a foam package (a small pillow works great) and place in a dryer. Run it without heat for a hour. Then you just have to carefully cut open the backing to insert everything.


----------



## marozie

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DCinLBV* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I found a clear acrylic nail polish gave a safe, glossy final coat without any polishing or buffing, but apply it lightly and give it at least a day to fully harden. I also let my epoxy cure for 5 days before applying it._

 

I just picked up some clear acrylic nail polish last night. You're a more patient man than I -- waiting 5 days?! But now I'm paying the price for my impatience: itchy ears pretty much blows. It's almost subsided, but still there. I imagine this will be followed by some skin sloughing at some point, which should be pretty fun.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DCinLBV* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If you want hollow shells, you can use an old-school method of tumbling. Just prep your molds with some scrap tubing and wire bent into the shape of your sound ports. Lightly coat them in vasoline, or mold release. Put 20-30 ml of slow (at least 1 hour to set) curing resin in the molds and use painters tape, or something, to seal the backs of the mold. Double seal the mold in ziploc bags. Insert everything in a foam package (a small pillow works great) and place in a dryer. Run it without heat for a hour. Then you just have to carefully cut open the backing to insert everything._

 

That's brilliant! How do you like the sound of your TWFK - ED setup by the way? What are your impressions?


----------



## DCinLBV

It was a long week of waiting. I actually used a thin layer of vasoline on my units while they cured those 5 days. It's easy to remove, and a good barrier film. The resin I used had a protracted cure time and I did not want to seal them with the polish while they were gassing off.


----------



## marozie

I finally got the cable from Westone. It's really nice, I would definitely recommend it. I had to modify the connectors a bit to get them to fit. They were a bit too narrow, so I splayed them open into more of a Y shape:


----------



## brotherlen

amazing work.


----------



## SilverCans

End up coating them in clear nail polish? Done any extensive listening, your thoughts please


----------



## marozie

Yes, I've coated them in clear gloss acrylic nail polish. I actually had a pretty bad allergic response to the urethane. Turns out there's a chemical constituent of urethanes called aliphatic isocyanate that is a potent antigen and once you've been sensitized to it you can have a fairly severe allergic response upon subsequent exposure. It's so severe that once you've been sensitized to it you can never work with it again. Apparently this was a big problem in industries that use urethanes where workers are chronically exposed to it, so there's quite a bit of research out there about it. Now, granted this stuff had a warning on it that it could lead to "skin irritation," but that's a far cry from "exposure can lead to permanent sensitization that could result in fatal allergic response." IMHO. So, I would suggest that urethanes never be used for this kind of application. I looked up the stuff that Drew used, Ding-All Ultra Clear. It's a polyester resin that contains styrene, a carcinogen. Again, I think that if they're coated in something like nail polish they're most likely safe, but man, it's quite a gamble. It would be nice if someone could find out specifically what commercial IEM/hearing aid manufacturers use, where it can be purchased, who makes it, etc. Guiseppe must be privy to this kind of information.

 But they sound amazing -- worth dying over? maybe. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I can't recommend this setup enough. CI makes it sound like there are subwoofers in my ears. It's the kind of low end response that you always think you can never get out of a canalphone. DTEC has a really robust mid frequency response that is full and punchy, WBFK produces crystal clear highs that are always detailed and never harsh. It's unbelievable the balance that these achieve. I think I prefer them over all of my full size cans. The only thing they lack is soundstage. They certainly don't sound as spacious as open full size cans. I read on some website, it might have been Westone, that they can put in an extra acoustic tube that functions as a port, it's dampened but open to the outside. It's supposed to produce more of the open sound you get with open back phones. Seems like something worth exploring.


----------



## SilverCans

take a look at this:

http://www.henkel.com/us/content_dat...d_Brochure.pdf

Molding Compound targets hearing aid applications., Henkel Loctite Corporation

 looks like loctite makes something


----------



## piotrus-g

Look what I've found
SwivelComm Style No. 19 Mold Insert | Westone
Fabrication Materials what do you think about "pro float ear protection" it can be quite good for IEM application i guess


----------



## marozie

Hey, good work guys! The Loctite ResinAid 3596 is perfect! The only problem is I don't think it's available in the retail market. I did a cursory seach of Loctite distributors and couldn't find any that carried it. A few possible avenues to go down: 1) contact Loctite/Henkel and find out if it's available in retail; 2) contact a Loctite distributor and ask specifically if they carry it or could get it for you; 3) reach out to Guiseppe. Maybe he'd be willing to supply us with the materials that he has access to as an audiologist. Also, the Loctite/Henkel website talked about a piece of hardware specific to these products because some of them are UV cured. I assume that hardware isn't "necessary" but it might be worth looking into as well.

 The "Pro Float Floatable Ear Protection" material sounds promising. I guess it would depend on how flexible/rigid it is. If it's really soft you'd run into the same problems as you would with the Smooth On Lifecast material, namely the shifting of internal components and degredation over time.

 I was also thinking, what about just using acrylic nail polish to pour the entire mold? I don't know how well it would harden through since it's designed to be applied in thin layers. But I think I'm going to pour a test mold with it and see what happens. Even if it takes several days to fully cure, it's readily availble, hard acrylic, and perfectly safe.


----------



## SilverCans

Thanks! Let us know what you find on the Loctite. Yeah they mentioned as long as it is exposed to sufficient light it will cure so that machine probably isn't needed. 

 Regarding the nail polish, I thought about that but I don't think it would cure. Maybe bake it at 120deg in an oven (hopefully the drivers would be able to withstand that). Then again, the nail is a different animal from skin. I don't know how safe it is for skin as its much more porous than the nail, don't know, maybe its fine.


----------



## piotrus-g

UV cured materials shouldn't be a problem i think. You know that you can put a few UV LED together and make it cure fast.


----------



## marozie

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *SilverCans* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Then again, the nail is a different animal from skin._

 

Yes, but you have to think of this from a safety perspective. I'm a research biologist at a pharmaceutical company so I can give you my perspective as someone who's been involved in toxicology and safety studies. Safety in regards to toxicity is always a huge concern when drugs are being developed so you generally want the largest safety margin possible. In pharmacology the safety margin is the difference between the therapeutic dose and the dose as which you start to see toxicity. Imagine if the safety margin for aspirin was 2 fold, how many people do you think would die or get sick from accidentally taking twice (or more) the recommended (therapeutic) dose? Whereas if the safety margin is 1000, 2000, 3000 fold somebody would purposely have to consume the entire bottle of aspirin to achieve a toxic dose, it's unreasonable to think that this could happen by mistake. If a company released a drug that had a 2 fold safety margin they would get sued left and right because any lawyer would make the case (and win) saying that it's unreasonable to assume no one could accidentally take twice he therapeutic dose by accident. So translating this to nail polish, is it reasonable to think that someone could apply nail polish to the nail without getting any of it on the cuticle or skin that surrounds the nail? Not really. So a company would never produce a nail polish (in my opinion) that resulted in any kind of irritation or toxicity to the skin because the safety margin between getting some on your skin and not getting some on your skin is so small that it's unreasonable to assume that it couldn't happen. Let's put it this way, if I were in charge a developing a new nail polish I would never move anything forward that could produce any kind of toxicity via dermal contact, it would have to be 100% safe.


----------



## marozie

Here: SafeNailPolish.com. "Safe Nail Polish Is A Reality! The Original & Real Safe Nail Polish. Strong, Odorless, Non-Toxic & Hypo-Allergenic - It's Water Based, and lasts like conventional polish!"

 It's a miracle.


----------



## SilverCans

with a name like SafeNailPolish, its got to be safe! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 P.S. please let us know what you find on the Loctite stuff i mentioned earlier 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. Something tells me it isn't going to be cheap though, but that is just a hunch.


----------



## marozie

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *SilverCans* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Regarding the nail polish, I thought about that but I don't think it would cure. Maybe bake it at 120deg in an oven (hopefully the drivers would be able to withstand that)._

 

I don't know if putting a mold filled with nail polish in an oven is such a good idea since most of the solvents in it are highly flammable. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 A vacuum chamber would be ideal.

 I emailed Loctite, but I'm not hopeful. I've done all sorts of searches for the specific Loctite products, hearing aid supplies, audiologist supplies, hearing aid resins, etc, etc, etc. None of this stuff is sold retail.

 I poured a mold with nail polish so I'm curious to see how that turns out. After a couple hours I can already tell you that shrinkage is a problem not just for men: it has reduced about 30-40%...

 What else can we use??? This is driving me crazy!!!


----------



## SilverCans

lol 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I know this is nuts. I'll call around tomorrow when have a few minutes at work. Got a few couple in mind. Then again my work schedule has been nuts as of late so I might not get to it; will try.


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## marozie

So, the nail polish actually kind of works. The only thing is that because it shrinks so much you kind of have to make the mold like an inverted candle, layer by layer. You fill the mold with nail polish, it shrinks about 50%, fill it up again, shrinks, fill it up again, etc. Probably the best way to do it would be to not let it completely dry in between refills so that the layers completely adhere to one another and so that you don't get air pockets that develop during shrinkage. It certainly isn't the easiest way to make a mold but the proof of concept is there.


----------



## marozie

Reply from Henkel/Loctite:

 "This product is available through Loctite industrial distributors. However, it is also a special order item meaning we need to manufacture the product once an order is placed. To find your local distributor where you can place an order, please visit this link Distributor - Henkel. Please be aware that there may be a minimim order quanity on special order items."


----------



## marozie

I've been in communication with Tarek (SilverCans) and Guiseppe about a few things and just want to post what we've talked about for the benefit of everyone:

 The important points are: 1) Making actual shells might not be very practical for a DIYer, although I'd like to try out Drew's tumbling method. If someone could get their hands on one of the Loctite UV cure resins and an appropriately powerful UV lamp making shells would be a piece of cake because the UV resins cure in something like 15-25 seconds upon UV exposure. 2) Loctite and Egger seem to be the primary suppliers of the products used to make hearing aids and IEMs by commercial manufacturers. 3) Even these products can produce allergic reactions so there are no guarantees, but Loctite alone makes about a dozen different kinds of resins -- hard silicones, acrylics, polymers that come in different levels of hardness/rigidity -- so there are actually tons of options (once you've infiltrated a distributor). 4) I looked at the Warner Tech Care website and while they do require you to set up an account (and I don't know what that involves specifically) they don't say that they won't sell retail as most distributors do. Warner sells literally anything and everything you could ever want or need for making IEMs (minus the actual electronics), it's a DIY IEM builder's goldmine.


----------



## marozie

I signed up for an account with Warner Tech Care, waiting for it to be activated before I can enter the online shop. Oh man, these materials would make this process SO much easier. So... the way you're _supposed_ to do it is you take this little hollow, clear cylinder called an investment form or cuff (Guiseppe had them in one of his photos) and fill it with a UV transparent silicone into which you place the impression of the ear canal. The mold that this produced is called an investment, or investment casting. The silicone used is a two part RTV. You can also use a material called hydrocolloid, which appears to be one part so I guess it just cures with air contact. Once you have the transparent investment (the mold) you coat the inside with a UV curable acrylic. These come in different shear strengths, colors (can be optically clear or tinted), viscosities, and different levels of softness/hardness. Once you've coated the inside of the investement with the acrylic you either use a handheld UV light (which they sell, and look basically like LED flashlights with special LEDs that are tuned to emit a lot of UV, I assume) or (if you had one) place it in a UV light chamber. These compounds cure in something like 30 seconds of UV exposure, and because it cures so quickly the result is an evenly distributed wall thickness. That's how you make the shell. Then there are all sorts of adhesives, some of which are also UV curable, that you can use to install the parts. You would then have to fashion some kind of "faceplate" and either screw it on with tiny little jewelers screws or they also make faceplate adhesives. The final step is to seal the acrylic shell with a UV curable lacquer which gives it a hard, polished-looking surface. There are even lacquers that are hypo-allergenic, and some that are soft. I referenced Westone offering a shell material that becomes softer with body heat -- they sell that too! It's called Thermosoft and is made by Dreve Materials. Assuming my account gets activated I'm going to buy one of the laquers to coat my IEMs (I have doubts about the durability of the nail polish, it already appears to be cracking). But perhaps when I'm up to it I will make a new set of IEMs from scratch and do it the right way!

 UPDATE: OK, so as I suspected, they didn't just automatically activate my account -- they baulked at the fact that I was a retail customer. I spoke to the operations manager, Lee, and explained the situation. He said he had no problem activating my account even though I'm not buying wholesale, they just don't want people trying to buy some of the products (like special hearing impaired telephones and headsets and things) that audiologists would sell retail. So I'm in! And holy crap, are some of these resins expensive! I guess it's to be expected. The Loctite products are around $300 a quart. The Dreve products are relatively cheap though and you can also buy most things in pretty small quantities, like a 20mL syringe worth. The hypo-allergenic Dreve lacquer is $30 for 20mL. Certainly not cheap, but it won't break the bank. Unfortunately, the little handheld UV light sources are like $800 (which I really don't understand), but you can buy UV lightbulbs for growing plans indoors at any greenhouse/nursery. Or just expose it to really strong, direct sunlight. It might take a little longer to cure, but it should work. I'm going to look into buying UV LEDs as well, maybe you could just pop them in an LED flashlight?


----------



## SilverCans

Hi Marozie. I kind of don't understand the face plate part, the company I spoke to the other day mentioned the use of a face plate as well. What I don't get is once the shell is made, I envision it as either one entire closed piece or two halves that can me glued/merged together. So where does the face plate fit into the equation?

 Regarding UV Led:
 mouser.com has a UV high powered led for $28.80 (part number LZ1-00UA05) 
http://www.ledengin.com/products/5wLZ/LZ1-00UA05.pdf
 specifically made for "dental curing" and such.

 They also have a ton of standard powered uv leds for < $0.70 but I think you'd need to make a circular array of them to get enough light power (I guess its doable but would have to look into how many would be needed).

 So far it seems you may continue to make the iem out of what you do now but just coat them in hypo-allergenic Dreve lacquer, is this correct?


----------



## marozie

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *SilverCans* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi Marozie. I kind of don't understand the face plate part, the company I spoke to the other day mentioned the use of a face plate as well. What I don't get is once the shell is made, I envision it as either one entire closed piece or two halves that can me glued/merged together. So where does the face plate fit into the equation?_

 

So, if you coat an investment with your acrylic and then cure it you have basically a hollow, open-topped IEM, right? This is the shell. You put everything in the shell, but then the top is still open, so you make a little flat piece that is a lid, more or less. That's the faceplate. Here's a diagram from UE's website:






  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *SilverCans* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_They also have a ton of standard powered uv leds for < $0.70 but I think you'd need to make a circular array of them to get enough light power (I guess its doable but would have to look into how many would be needed)._

 

I looked on Amazon as well, there's 8 million UV LED flashlights. So, I don't understand why any handheld UV light would cost hundreds or thousands of dollars, other than because that's what they can charge. It's the same thing in the medical device industry. But even if you bought a UV lightbulb, put it in a lamp, and took a cardboard box and lined it with white paper, you'd have a little UV light chamber. It seems pretty easy to get around.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *SilverCans* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So far it seems you may continue to make the iem out of what you do now but just coat them in hypo-allergenic Dreve lacquer, is this correct?_

 

That's the $64,000 question, at least for me. Since the plastic I used to make the IEMs is urethane and this stuff is acrylic there's no guarantee they are going to stick to each other. I've already had problems with the nail polish flaking off, which is also acrylic.

 As an aside, I looked at the MSDS for this stuff. It's polymethyl methacrylate, i.e. plexiglass! It's so well tolerated by the body that it can be used to make medical device implants, and as you alluded to, dentures.


----------



## marozie

So, the LED from Mouser that SilverCans mentioned, from LED Engin, is pretty powerful: ~5V @ 1A putting out 5W. There's also a 10W (17.2V @ 1A!) version. And you can get them in very precise spectral outputs as they're made specifically for curing dental molds (which use the exact same resins as hearing aids/IEMs). I went to Home Depot and found plant light bulbs but they don't give specifications for spectral output. These resins cure precisely at 395nm if I'm not mistaken, so you need something that at least covers a range that includes that frequency, and while plant lights put out UV without some specs it would be a crap shoot. I think buying a UV flashlight on Amazon or something would most likely be useless since most of them seem to be pretty cheap and run on AA or AAA batteries, which means they can't put out much more that a couple hundred mW max, and probably less. And the ones that seem to be higher quality cost >$50; might as well buy the 5W UV LED from Mouser with a 5V AC PS for $30 and make yourself a UV cure light. I'm still thinking bright, direct sunlight is going to do the trick. I ordered the Dreve Fotoplast Lacquer 3 which is the hypo-allergenic stuff. I'll post the results...


----------



## Bilavideo

Exciting stuff!


----------



## pdupiano

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *marozie* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So, the LED from Mouser that SilverCans mentioned, from LED Engin, is pretty powerful: ~5V @ 1A putting out 5W. There's also a 10W (17.2V @ 1A!) version. And you can get them in very precise spectral outputs as they're made specifically for curing dental molds (which use the exact same resins as hearing aids/IEMs). I went to Home Depot and found plant light bulbs but they don't give specifications for spectral output. These resins cure precisely at 395nm if I'm not mistaken, so you need something that at least covers a range that includes that frequency, and while plant lights put out UV without some specs it would be a crap shoot. I think buying a UV flashlight on Amazon or something would most likely be useless since most of them seem to be pretty cheap and run on AA or AAA batteries, which means they can't put out much more that a couple hundred mW max, and probably less. And the ones that seem to be higher quality cost >$50; might as well buy the 5W UV LED from Mouser with a 5V AC PS for $30 and make yourself a UV cure light. I'm still thinking bright, direct sunlight is going to do the trick. I ordered the Dreve Fotoplast Lacquer 3 which is the hypo-allergenic stuff. I'll post the results..._

 

Some possible reasons why medical UV lights are expensive:
 1) Specific spectral range:
 -While a large range of LEDs may produce 395nm wavelengths, they may also produce a wide range of wave lengths and the over all "power" is decreased (Bandwidth versus intensity I suppose). As you mentioned in your post, direct sunlight would work too (you're guaranteed to get wavelengths in the region you need). But the overall broad band of spectral waves is so great that the amount of actual "power" delivered to the molds may not be enough to cure them (at least in a tolerable amount of time). 

 2) UV LED lamps/lights may not exactly be UV in that what you buy commercially is in the visible light spectrum but no one really checks if its beyond that. And to be honest I'd be pretty damn worried if UV LED flashlights were actually in the UV range. The melanoma rates in the world would have tripled or doubled by now from kids playing with flashlights.

 3) Built in UV protection. Certain medical practitioners do rely on UV lights, I noticed my dentist using something similar the other day to cure a mold (and yes I did ask her if she could take impressions of my ears... she said no). Looking at the device, its made of a single LED, with a shield and a way of concentrating the light to a particular spot.

 4) Light concentration/intensity. Along the same lines as a laser, certain optic devices need to be concentrated some how. Based on what I saw at my dentist's office, it doesn't seem like its too complicated, but then again I wasn't exactly allowed to take it apart and tinker with her equipment. I remember that in highschool we were able to make our own electronics projects and half my class chose to make laser pointers because the circuitry was a simple series circuit with an LED and resistor....lazy bastards. But anyway only 2 students built the laser correctly because they bought the proper lens that would concentrate the beam well enough to create a laser pointer, while the rest of the class tried to use lenses they got from flashlights and other random junk they bought at home depot.

 Now I'm not saying that this all amounts to several hundred dollars worth of equipment, but what I am suggesting is that you may want to look into the safety aspects of this before moving forward (remember the skin rash issues?). If you really are working in the UV spectrum, take the necessary precautions to prevent getting skin cancer, the last thing we would want, would be skin cancer on your ears.... because then you would have to take new impressions every month due to the changing shape of your ears.


----------



## marozie

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pdupiano* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Some possible reasons why medical UV lights are expensive:
 1) Specific spectral range:
 -While a large range of LEDs may produce 395nm wavelengths, they may also produce a wide range of wave lengths and the over all "power" is decreased (Bandwidth versus intensity I suppose). As you mentioned in your post, direct sunlight would work too (you're guaranteed to get wavelengths in the region you need). But the overall broad band of spectral waves is so great that the amount of actual "power" delivered to the molds may not be enough to cure them (at least in a tolerable amount of time)._

 

Actually, most UV LEDs have a very narrow spectral output from what I've seen, i.e. 390-410nm, 395-405nm, etc. However, cheap UV LEDs that are the equivalent to what you would you would use as a power indicator in a piece of electronics only put out around 100mW or less. These LEDs made for dental curing come in 5W and 10W packages, that's the reason they're so expensive. I would imagine any 5 or 10W LED regardless of its spectral out put would be equally expensive. But then again, to equal the 5W output you'd have to by 20 100mW LEDs, at about $1 a piece you're not saving that much.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pdupiano* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_2) UV LED lamps/lights may not exactly be UV in that what you buy commercially is in the visible light spectrum but no one really checks if its beyond that. And to be honest I'd be pretty damn worried if UV LED flashlights were actually in the UV range. The melanoma rates in the world would have tripled or doubled by now from kids playing with flashlights._

 

I believe most people can see light at starting at about 400nm, and UVA, which is 320-400nm, is the least dangerous because it doesn't cause direct DNA damage, unlike UVB (280-320) and UVC (100-280). UVB in sunlight is what gives you a sunburn; UVC in sunlight is mostly filtered out by the atmosphere, and is the most dangerous - it's used for sterilization because it basically destroys DNA. So, yeah, you can actually buy a UV flashlight. Most cheap UV flashlights are probably in the 390-410 range. I say cheap because you can buy more expensive UV lights at 365nm that are made specifically for forensics applications. Apparently things that flouresce under UV light do so the best at 365nm. Not to mention the fact that you can buy UVC sterilization lights for home use. How's that for dangerous?

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pdupiano* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_3) Built in UV protection. Certain medical practitioners do rely on UV lights, I noticed my dentist using something similar the other day to cure a mold (and yes I did ask her if she could take impressions of my ears... she said no). Looking at the device, its made of a single LED, with a shield and a way of concentrating the light to a particular spot._

 

That sounds like the handheld UV spot curing lights. That's what those 5W and 10W LEDs from LEDENGIN are used for. 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pdupiano* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_4) Light concentration/intensity. Along the same lines as a laser, certain optic devices need to be concentrated some how. Based on what I saw at my dentist's office, it doesn't seem like its too complicated, but then again I wasn't exactly allowed to take it apart and tinker with her equipment. I remember that in highschool we were able to make our own electronics projects and half my class chose to make laser pointers because the circuitry was a simple series circuit with an LED and resistor....lazy bastards. But anyway only 2 students built the laser correctly because they bought the proper lens that would concentrate the beam well enough to create a laser pointer, while the rest of the class tried to use lenses they got from flashlights and other random junk they bought at home depot._

 

I don't know. I think they're basically just like flashlights with a reflector and a lens.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pdupiano* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Now I'm not saying that this all amounts to several hundred dollars worth of equipment, but what I am suggesting is that you may want to look into the safety aspects of this before moving forward (remember the skin rash issues?). If you really are working in the UV spectrum, take the necessary precautions to prevent getting skin cancer, the last thing we would want, would be skin cancer on your ears.... because then you would have to take new impressions every month due to the changing shape of your ears._

 

I'm sticking with my "it's expensive because it can be" argument. If those Loctite Spot Lights are just a flashlight with an LEDENGIN 10W LED (which, granted is like $120 by itself) then there's no reason why it should cost $1000. Other than because they only people buying them are charging them to their company, and buying a piece of necessary equipment for $1000 is something a company isn't going to think twice about because it will end up paying for itself in no time.

 No doubt, messing around with a UV light is dangerous. You would certainly need UV safety glasses. But using a UV light a handful of time for 30 seconds at a time is probably going to expose you to as much UVA as you would get standing out in the sun. There are actually OSHA guidelines for how much UV exposure is safe since there are industries where workers are using UV light on a regular basis. We actually got a new fume hood in one of the biology labs at work that has a UV light in it for the purposes of sterilizing it. Maybe I'll just stick my IEMs in there for a couple minutes. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Now this on the other hand...


----------



## Bilavideo

At this point, we've talked about the drivers and the wiring. We've discussed methods and principles behind crossovers. We've even talked about how to make shells the way the pros make them, but without having to resort to expensive injection-mold processes. I wonder, though, whether there's a way to do this using something soft and "plastic" (in the classic sense, like clay) that will harden over time, thus making it easy for the DIYer to make a kitchen-sink shell.

 My take on this is a quest to provide the Joe and Jane Lunchbox a means of fabricating a high-quality pair of in-ear monitors but without a lot of specialized gear. It's quite easy to buy the drivers. The same holds true of the cable and solder. We've gone over outlets that provide hearing-aid tubing that delivers the sound. The only thing left is the plastic shell to house the components, act as a locus for stress protection (to prevent wires from being pulled out) and provide a means of sealing the opening of the ear canal for proper isolation and bass containment (without an airtight seal, you can't provide the right air pressure for bass without volumes that risk hearing loss).

 If we had a material with the plasticity of a stick of chewing gum, but self-hardening (and without toxicity), we'd have an easy winner in the "easy to do it" category.


----------



## marozie

Yeah, this definitely seems to be the hard part. It seems like there's inherent toxicity with liquid plastics which is mostly due to the chemicals that are used as solvents, or in the case of epoxies the hardener component. The biggest problem is that outside of the medical device industry (and I'll throw hearing aids into that pool; and since companies that make IEMs use hearing aid supplies you could throw them in there as well) there really aren't any industries that have a need to make plastics that are safe for repeated or prolonged skin contact. So therein lies the dilemma; plastics that are readily available (and therefore cheap) aren't necessarily safe (and in most cases there's simply no way of knowing); plastics that have been specifically designed to be safe aren't readily available and are therefore extremely expensive and hard to procure. Another problem I found is that MSDSs don't differentiate between the characteristics of the liquid form and the hardened (or cured) form. Since just about every liquid plastic is toxic every MSDS is going to say that it shouldn't come in contact with skin; even the MSDSs for the UV curable acrylics say "may cause skin irritation," "do not inhale," etc., which we can deduce is referring to the product in the liquid phase because we know that the cured final product is perfectly safe. The easiest thing to do would be to use latex or silicone, or even the two part foam rubbers that are used to make the impressions of your ears in the first place. I'm just skeptical about how well the internals would hold up in such a soft and flexible shell, and the long term durability probably wouldn't be great. On the other hand they would be incredibly comfortable.


----------



## buz

Use a hard plastic inner casing and a soft shell which can be replaced?


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## marozie

I was waiting for a nice sunny weekend to try out the UV lacquer, which ended up being today. It worked like a charm. It cured in a matter of minutes in direct sunlight. Unlike the nailpolish, which has a very tacky surface even after it dries which made it at times a bit of a challenge to get the IEMs in my ears, with this stuff on them the slide right in. If you're willing to pay the premium for this stuff it solves a lot of problems with potential toxicity/allergy to your primary plastic substrate; this stuff is even hypo-allergenic.


----------



## Lpe_91

..


----------



## Carlosfandango

Bilavideo I've only just discovered this thread and have only got up to page 12 or 13. But just wanted to whizz along to the last page to commend you in your efforts and dedication to this task.

 Absolutely awseome altruistic thread, you information sharing probably helps to single this site out as such a good source of information for people seriously dedicated to hifi.

 I kneel at your feet


----------



## Bilavideo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Carlosfandango* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Bilavideo I've only just discovered this thread and have only got up to page 12 or 13. But just wanted to whizz along to the last page to commend you in your efforts and dedication to this task.

 Absolutely awseome altruistic thread, you information sharing probably helps to single this site out as such a good source of information for people seriously dedicated to hifi.

 I kneel at your feet 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Carlos, you honor me with the kudos. Thanks. As you'll find as you continue with the thread, there were a lot of smart people who jumped in and filled it with terrific research and suggestions. I had a question and some genuine curiosity. I quickly found myself surrounded by friends whose background and expertise turned this thread into something amazing.


----------



## Bilavideo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *marozie* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I was waiting for a nice sunny weekend to try out the UV lacquer, which ended up being today. It worked like a charm. It cured in a matter of minutes in direct sunlight. Unlike the nailpolish, which has a very tacky surface even after it dries which made it at times a bit of a challenge to get the IEMs in my ears, with this stuff on them the slide right in. If you're willing to pay the premium for this stuff it solves a lot of problems with potential toxicity/allergy to your primary plastic substrate; this stuff is even hypo-allergenic._

 

I think you've found it. I think I just need to go back and re-read where you found it.


----------



## marozie

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bilavideo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think you've found it. I think I just need to go back and re-read where you found it._

 

Warner Tech Care, the DIY IEM builder's superstore. It's made by Dreve. They refer to all of the products for hearing aids/IEMs as otoplastiks. It's expensive though, $30 for 20mL (compare that to nail polish which is about $5 for 15mL).

 And I don't think I ever expressed my gratitude to you myself, Bilavideo. Kudos! Without you none of this would have happened!

 Now, for my next project I wanted to make an Sonion based IEM. I took apart some Klipsch Custom 2s that I had and was going to use those drivers (manufactured by Sonion) as the midrange and add a woofer and a tweeter to it. Sonion drivers can be purchased from Colsan Micro which is in the UK. My thought was to make a 6 driver (3 dual drivers), 3 way design using the 4400 as tweeter, the Klipsch dual driver as the midrange, and the 2800 (which is a monstrous beast). The 4400 series is the super tiny dual driver that someone way back in this thread had used as a tweeter, which I would have thought would be a good choice as well.

 I reached out to them explaining what I was looking for and this was their reply, which is pretty interesting I think:

_"Hi Mark

 This is what I have been advised:

 We would advise 2015 or 2091i as a woofer and a 2389 as a tweeter. The 2091i is more difficult to drive but has bigger bass. The 2389 could be driven "half coil" to enhance high frequencies_ *[I don't know what this means, can anyone explain?]. *_The receiver for Klipsch custom 2 earphone is not generic available. We advise to use a 17A003 as midrange instead. (better sounding) In general we would advise to use two way designs over 3 way designs. Designing a good sounding 3 way is very difficult and almost impossible without proper measurement equipment. For a 2 way the cross over network could consist of a simple capacitor (1-2 uF, preferably ceramic type and not tantalum) and some acoustic dampers for acoustic low passing of the woofer. A 3-way is more complicated, one of the reasons being balance armatures are highly inductive and difficult to filter electrically. We would think a combination of 2389 and 2015 or 2091i will outperform a combination of 2015/klipsch midrange/2389 by far.

 4400 makes not much sense for musician IEM because of low headroom. It has too high impedance for use as tweeter."_

 I understand what they're saying about the low impedance, and the 2389 is the lowest impedance driver they make, but the frequency response isn't very impressive, especially when compared to the 4400. Also, this business about them not recommending a 3 way design... I don't know, the IEMs I made are 3 way and they sounds pretty damn good. And I didn't think of this when I was making those, but couldn't you use a cap and a high impedance acoustic filter on the midrange to achieve both high and low pass filtration? Thoughts?


----------



## SilverCans

marozie;6593453 said:
			
		

> [URL="http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f6/home-made-iems-430688/...but couldn't you use a cap and a high impedance acoustic filter on the midrange to achieve both high and low pass filtration? Thoughts?


 
 You probably could. The thing is with a 3 way design, is that trying to achieve a 3-way using only electrical parts (caps/resistors/inductors though inductors are not really feasible for such a project) is tough to do on the mid-range without measuring the freq & impedance curve of the drivers. The reason being because the mid-range driver needs to have bandpass electrical slope (both a high and low pass cross over). However, as you eluded to above, I'd imaging you could use an acoustic filter to simplify things and give you the high freq roll off but, again, you would kind of be guessing without proper frequency measurements. Personally, I'd say go for it, you have nothing to loose given you are making the shells on your own


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## Bilavideo

I realize engineers are trained - and paid - to work things out mathematically, which is economically preferable to trial and error. But given the number of variables at work, there's nothing quite like trial and error to test - and dismiss - a great many preconceptions about the relationship between a proposed design and the unvarnished reality of performance in the real world.

 Lots of people will tell you what you can't, or shouldn't, do. Only experience will settle the argument.


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## marozie

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bilavideo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I realize engineers are trained - and paid - to work things out mathematically, which is economically preferable to trial and error. But given the number of variables at work, there's nothing quite like trial and error to test - and dismiss - a great many preconceptions about the relationship between a proposed design and the unvarnished reality of performance in the real world.

 Lots of people will tell you what you can't, or shouldn't, do. Only experience will settle the argument._

 

Dude. You're like a Head-Fi sage. I think that should be the next level after Headphoneus Supremus.

 (I have a grammatical bone to pick with that title, while we're on it. If headphone keeps its 'e' in Headphoneus why doesn't supreme? Bilavideo, maybe you can get that changed since you're in the club...)


----------



## marozie

Alright, I got an explanation about driving the tweeter half coil. I mean, I still don't really understand what "half coil" means, but this is how you do it:






 They sent me some other information that might be proprietary to Sonion so I don't want to post it, but with the two drivers they recommend, in this configuration, the tweeter goes well past 10kHz, to almost 12kHz, and the woofer is almost 115dB all the way down to 20Hz. That's pretty damn inpressive.

 Also, they recommend green and yellow dampers for tweeter and woofer, respectively, whereas I had used white and red.


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## marozie

OK, I got pricing info. The Sonion drivers are a lot less than the Knowles drivers, to my surprise. Since I have to have them shipped from the UK I thought I would ask anyone if they're interested in a small group by to save on shipping. Also, I know this is a DIY forum and all, but I'd be more than willing to make IEMs for others if they're intimidated about the process, or just don't feel like doing it. I'll post a new thread about this as well.


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## marozie

I apologize for momentarily hijacking this thread but I have something to get off my chest. I had a run in with the Head-Fi police yesterday. As I stated in my previous post, I had been thinking for a while that it would be fun to make IEMs for other people on Head-Fi, not even for the purpose of trying to make money, but because I like building things, and I only need so many pairs of IEMs for myself. I've amassed a lot of knowledge regarding this process, where to source supplies, etc., why not use it? So I put up a post in the "for sale" section and got like 10 replies within a couple hourse before I got a PM explaining that I was breaking the rules and that my post had been deleted. I was told that if I wanted to procede I would have to be classified as a "Member of the Trade" which would require me to pay Head-Fi advertising fees (which would mean that I would have to charge people more than cost to cover those fees), and would severely restrict the kinds of things I could post -- for example, everything that I've posted in this thread would be deleted because MOT can't post anything about their own products in the DIY section, they can't make any comments about their own products, they can't make any comments about anyone else's products, etc., etc., etc. I understand why they want to be cautious about letting people make and sell things, and in fairness any website that is used as a portal for you to sell things to other people charges a fee for that service, but I wasn't trying to start a business, and the primary difference between this and selling something on eBay or Etsy or something is that those sites don't restrict your attempt to turn a profit. I mean, it makes perfect sense that if you're going to use a website to try and make money that the website should get a piece of it. But I was going to sell these more or less at cost, which as far as I see it is providing a benefit to the Head-Fi community since comparable custom IEMs from actual businesses cost 3, 4, 5 times what they cost to make.

 In addition, you can't post a thread about a group buy without first getting it approved by the administrators??? What is this crap? I can't see what possible reason they would have for restricting a group buy post. Protecting their members from getting scammed? I don't think that's Head-Fi's responsibility. The whole point of having a community is that people get to know one another. If I organized a group buy and scammed people they would talk about it, I would be blacklisted, no one would interact with me anymore. As some point you have to let the community function as a community, and any community has empirically determined do-s and don't-s, a collectively, if also unspoken, agreed upon standard of behavior. Call it ethics, morality, whatever. But they don't have to be shoved down people's throats by the governing body. I don't mean to go off on too much of a tangent, but this is exactly why communism always fails; communism attemps to force a synthetic ethical ideology on everyone with out letting it evolve naturally.

 Am I wrong in thinking that this is a bit of an unreasonable, heavy-handed overreaction, or am I just not getting it? Because this seems kind of absurd to me. I'm a big kid, I can take care of myself, I don't need Head-Fi to protect me. I would like to think the same is true of others...


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## cyberspyder

No, but I don't make the rules here...life isn't fair, but there's nothing you or I can do about it.


----------



## MaoDi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *marozie* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Warner Tech Care, the DIY IEM builder's superstore. It's made by Dreve. They refer to all of the products for hearing aids/IEMs as otoplastiks. It's expensive though, $30 for 20mL (compare that to nail polish which is about $5 for 15mL).

 And I don't think I ever expressed my gratitude to you myself, Bilavideo. Kudos! Without you none of this would have happened!

 Now, for my next project I wanted to make an Sonion based IEM. I took apart some Klipsch Custom 2s that I had and was going to use those drivers (manufactured by Sonion) as the midrange and add a woofer and a tweeter to it. Sonion drivers can be purchased from Colsan Micro which is in the UK. My thought was to make a 6 driver (3 dual drivers), 3 way design using the 4400 as tweeter, the Klipsch dual driver as the midrange, and the 2800 (which is a monstrous beast). The 4400 series is the super tiny dual driver that someone way back in this thread had used as a tweeter, which I would have thought would be a good choice as well.

 I reached out to them explaining what I was looking for and this was their reply, which is pretty interesting I think:

"Hi Mark

 This is what I have been advised:

 We would advise 2015 or 2091i as a woofer and a 2389 as a tweeter. The 2091i is more difficult to drive but has bigger bass. The 2389 could be driven "half coil" to enhance high frequencies *[I don't know what this means, can anyone explain?]. *The receiver for Klipsch custom 2 earphone is not generic available. We advise to use a 17A003 as midrange instead. (better sounding) In general we would advise to use two way designs over 3 way designs. Designing a good sounding 3 way is very difficult and almost impossible without proper measurement equipment. For a 2 way the cross over network could consist of a simple capacitor (1-2 uF, preferably ceramic type and not tantalum) and some acoustic dampers for acoustic low passing of the woofer. A 3-way is more complicated, one of the reasons being balance armatures are highly inductive and difficult to filter electrically. We would think a combination of 2389 and 2015 or 2091i will outperform a combination of 2015/klipsch midrange/2389 by far.

 4400 makes not much sense for musician IEM because of low headroom. It has too high impedance for use as tweeter."

 I understand what they're saying about the low impedance, and the 2389 is the lowest impedance driver they make, but the frequency response isn't very impressive, especially when compared to the 4400. Also, this business about them not recommending a 3 way design... I don't know, the IEMs I made are 3 way and they sounds pretty damn good. And I didn't think of this when I was making those, but couldn't you use a cap and a high impedance acoustic filter on the midrange to achieve both high and low pass filtration? Thoughts?_

 

That is why i never agreed to people saying "impedance is too high" or "it's too bright" or "to harsh" to be something something something. The TWFK is a good example. No one at Knowles would agree that the TWFK is a good tweeter, but that totally wouldn't be true as Unique Melody has managed to crank out a huge amount of performance out of them in highs and high mids. Also, i would also agree that a 3 and 4 way is much harder to make compared to a 2-way, but if you get it right. It's hard to compare. The 2389 is a very good high freq driver, but it just doesn't extend to those frequencies we all want to go to...yet people seem to ignore this when suggesting the driver.


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## pdupiano

Sorry mate, but those are the rule of the forum. I was surprised too by the group buy issue, and I would assume that it is on behalf of protecting head-fiers from past issues. Additionally you really shouldn't look at head-fi as preventing you from doing what you want, more like head-fi would end up getting reprimanded by its sponsors because you would be getting free advertisement for what those guys pay quite a bit of money for (to sell items on head-fi and post information about their products).

 As for Half-coil, based on the schematic, it looks like its running a dual driver into a single driver configuration. Think of it as a variable resistor with a full coil and only using half of the whole range. Presumably this would reduce interaction issues with all 3 drivers, limiting yourself to two drivers but obtaining the benefit of using a dual driver's better specs. It is possible that when making dual drivers, a company's tolerance is tighter on each coil making it better to use those dual drivers (at half coil) rather than using a single driver with the same design. 

 As for the 3 driver design and lack of measuring equipment, and use of experience instead, I'd have to go with Sonion, Knowles, and I would have to say everyone else in this case over Bill's encouraging Trial and error approach. Trial and error can only serve you well if you have the ability to make a dozen of these with all of the different variables. At the moment even if you have say 5 drivers you want to test (assume dual driver), 3 filters (acoustic not caps), 2 different tube lengths, you would have to build 60 iems to test all possibilities, even more with dual drivers then with caps and resistors. Even without the different tube lengths thats 30 iems and that's before the cross over issues. I think finding some measuring device to test frequencies would do you far more good than trial and error. Trial and error is fine if you're working with something feasable (usually cheap, quick, and dirty) but it is rarely the case for electronics equipment. Additionally trial and error would lead you to make conclusions that your ears may not detect because you aren't looking for it. Its like those "where's waldo" books, if you're not looking for red and white stripes and goofy pair of glasses, you'll never find waldo -you wouldn't even think he's in the picture. You can argue that you hear what you hear and would therefore not need any sonic equipment. All I can say is try listening to the same track using the same gear, focusing on different aspects of the music (highs, bass, etc... or even a particular instrument) and you'll find that its possible to listen to something different each and every time -while using the same gear! 

 I'd still push for the measuring equipment, primarily to have the ability to play with 3 drivers and have measurement data, just seems more fun that way. At the moment if these companies caution people against dual drivers.... I wonder what they say to 8-driver iems.... good luck, and don't wear yourself out making and testing 60 iems, thats what testing equipment is for.


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## piotrus-g

Marozie, I'd also advice you using 23xx Sonion series over 4400. 2323 f.e. which goes to 18kHz with ease. I believe that Phonak PFEs are based on 2300 propietary and must say that highs outperforms TWFK by far.
   
  If it comes to woofer, you can use dual driver or single. CI22955 is better than 3300 UE-propietary (TF10). However 2015i/2091i should be better than CI.
   
  It's harder to make 3way, I agree, but if you made it good you're home. As a midrange driver I'd suggest using 2015i over 1700. Series 1700 is rather entry-level driver. 2000 is said to be more refined and sweeter.


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## tsn141

3way systems are very difficult because of high inductance of receivers
  if you desire design a 3way system, you must use semi conductors-needs high level of ee engineering -(otherwise you must use very big caps )
  i asked that to my electronical engineering student friends and also show w3's crossover circuit theysaid this is very difficult and it needs semiconductor knowledge ,although it seems very simple
  secondly there is a more difficult problem , the iem needs a tunning but it has lots of veriable whereas two way no need only 2 circuit variable
  also both sonion's and knowles' advise two way more ideal
  however i really interest the 3way systems maybe we can design a 3way system
  sorry for my bad english


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## piotrus-g

Nah, actually it's possible to make 3way 3driver IEM with dual-bore design, only two caps and one resistor and no low pass filter. It would be difficult but it's possible.
   
  Tsn there's no need for semiconductors in IEM designs. Crossovers here are actually high and low pass filters made with caps and resistors. It's not complicated from the electrical point but it's complicated in calculations and measurments.


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## tsn141

with no low pass filter and neglect the inductance of BA's 
  the job is easy in this case 
  do big manufacturers use same way 
  or different?


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## tsn141

here is my work 
  i got help from piotrus-g
  also big thanks  Bilavideo 
  he leads a new horizon in my mind
  i use 2323 for mid and highs
  2015 for low
  filter was a big problem for me 
  because i did not think in turkey there is no filter ( no body know this) i have only green from old phones
  and 
  i also get a professional help in shelling proceses
  because there is a lots of difficulties for ensuring the drivers and ,especially, filters-dampers-,
  here is photos:
  http://www.flickr.com/photos/50080034@N08/show/with/4589711366/
   
   
   
  note :
  that's still in prototype 
  and i am apply trial and error method for considering cap value and resistor 
  also there is no filter in 2015 
   
  i think this will be improved
   
   
  sorry for my bad english


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## pdupiano

Tsn141 What equipment did you use to make the ear molds? Was it professional grade equipment or could it be something done from home because the shells look like its the same from a hearing aid shop. Thanks.


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## tsn141

yes i got professional help for this application 
  be honest a laid off on this job until come to a hearind aid shop for custom tips for my iem
  then i tell them that idea and they said they help me for this aim so they prepare the shell 
   
   
  also sorry for forgot to mark this detail


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## Bilavideo

Whatever gets the job done!


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## Bilavideo

CROSSOVER PARTS
   
  Does anybody have any recommendations for best-quality crossover parts?  Given the choices available, where would you go and what would you choose?
   
  True story.  I was listening to my UM3X again and, after listening to the HD800 and PS1000, was feeling bummed that the UM3X just didn't measure up.  Then, I put it through the EQ on iTunes and manually adjusted each frequency band, listening carefully to get that sweet spot.  When I finished, I was really surprised at how much better these headphones sounded.
   
  These headphones are capable of delivering so much better sound, if tuned properly.  It's a testament to the power of a decent crossover.  It makes me wonder how many earphones out there are stuck in mediocrity simply because somebody hasn't come up with a cost-effective way to get the right sound.


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## mugdecoffee

I think sugru would be the perfect material to make these housings out of: http://sugru.com/  It's a moldable, air dry, rubber material. One guy added some to his ibuds in the gallery and they look like they seal decently now.


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## Bilavideo

Quote: 





mugdecoffee said:


> I think sugru would be the perfect material to make these housings out of: http://sugru.com/  It's a moldable, air dry, rubber material. One guy added some to his ibuds in the gallery and they look like they seal decently now.


 

 Mudgecoffee, you're a genius!  Well done!  This is exactly what I was looking for - moldable, hands-on, Joe-Lunchbox plastic/rubber.  I'm going to check it out.  If it's everything it appears to be, I'm going to use it to make some sporty customizable earpieces I can use to make some killer home-made IEMs.


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## piotrus-g

Interesting. It seems to be useful for all DIYers. I like the way they've used it under PCBs. Great idea.
  As for IEMs it is possible to use it I think, but you'll have to do it in two steps.
  First make one half of IEM then add drivers tubing crossover and then close everything together with the second piece.
  Hey! If you made it properly you'd be able to change drivers, x-overs and so one with a litte amount of work and time.
  That seems genius!
  It'd be awsome if they had clear sugru, don't you think?


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## ccfoodog

Quote: 





bilavideo said:


> Mudgecoffee, you're a genius!  Well done!  This is exactly what I was looking for - moldable, hands-on, Joe-Lunchbox plastic/rubber.  I'm going to check it out.  If it's everything it appears to be, I'm going to use it to make some sporty customizable earpieces I can use to make some killer home-made IEMs.


 
   
   
  Dudes.  You are making me nervous.  Instead of keep using random materials and risking your health, why not using stuff that is intended for this type of use?  Like this stuff:
   
  Possible material for DIY custom sleeves
   
  -john


----------



## Bilavideo

We're making you NERVOUS?  Relax, then.  We've already ruled out hot tar and broken glass.
   
  I appreciate the suggestion of the Radians material.  I will take a look at it tonight or tomorrow.  Apparently, you can get it at Walmart, in the sporting goods section.  It costs a few dollars more than through Amazon, but that's the cost of brick-and-mortar convenience.  
   
  It's something when the molds have taken precedence over the drivers.  Since most people don't own a state-of-the-art plastic injection-mold machine, they've become dependent upon manufacturers, which have used a cloud of mystic mumbo jumbo to woo the public into paying exorbitant sums for plastic earplugs with drivers you can buy for a fraction of the cost.
   
  If I'm no expert on plastic molding, that already went without saying.  For $80, there are places you can send a handful of drivers, with filters and replacement cables, and have them put the whole mess together - according to your specs.  You could even take a used IEM you'd bought for a song and have it professionally custom-molded.
   
  For me, the question that remained was whether you could do this all at home.  We've had some really great contributions, some from professionals in the field, regarding the best drivers to use, the best way to design your own crossover, the best places to get the wire/cable.  The last chapter in this story has to be the one about how to devise your own custom mold without either breaking the bank or submitting to a process too complex or cumbersome for the Average Joe.  
   
  That's why we're spitballing materials, even if it makes some folks NERVOUS.  We already know how to get a professional to do this.  For me, the nirvana of it all will come when we come up with a hack to easy anybody can do it.  
   
  I'll give this material a look.  It may be too soft or too limited to compare to the hard plastics of the pros but you never know.  At any right, it's worth considering whether a $14 product at Walmart could render something better than the tips used with universals.
   
  I'll know we've reached the critical threshold when the manufacturers get nervous.


----------



## jrubins

DIY plastic molding?
  check out this stuff
http://www.shapelock.com/
   
  It's cheap, easily available, and easy to mold


----------



## Bilavideo

I'm going to try both.  My wife is hitting Walmart for the Radians and I just bought the Shapelock pellets online.  Let's see if this stuff provides a usable molding for homemade IEMs.  I'm trying to avoid the nastier stuff.


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## jrubins

Bill,
  I don't know if I'd use the shapelock directly... it gets a bit warm to the touch at molding temperatures.
  I was thinking about  using the radians to make a positive impression of my ear, then making a negative mold from plaster of paris (or something), and then making a positive out of the shapelock, which could be drilled/machined like regular plastic.


----------



## Bilavideo

Quote: 





jrubins said:


> Bill,
> I don't know if I'd use the shapelock directly... it gets a bit warm to the touch at molding temperatures.
> I was thinking about  using the radians to make a positive impression of my ear, then making a negative mold from plaster of paris (or something), and then making a positive out of the shapelock, which could be drilled/machined like regular plastic.


 

 I definitely would not shove anything hot into my ear.  I've made impressions using home kits.  What you end up with is surprisingly accurate but the material, itself, which is rubbery, doesn't strike me as the best stuff to use for an in-ear tip.  It's best feature (soft and malleable against the irregular surfaces of the ear canal) is also it's worst feature: unwanted sound absorption.  A harder substance would vibrate less and provide a less resonant contact surface.
   
  There are several ways to use the Shapelock.  One is to create a customized tip, not unlike the Westone UM56.  Tips are simpler.  Fabricating a tip is simply a matter of finding the right shape and girth.  With earphones that are as ergonomic as the UM3X, replacing the silicone and foam tips with something rigid (but custom-fit) is known to make a noticeable difference.  Owners of expensive custom-fit IEMs get defensive and are quit to point out the limitations of a "tip," but if one did nothing more than fix the problems with universal tips, one would be doing something right.
   
  Another use for the Shapelock is to take that $20 home-ear impression you've made and either make a mock-up of it or (after applying a release) cover it over with the Shapelock so that you now have a hard coating.  The resulting hard-candy shell can be handled several ways.  If you apply the release with care, you will be able to cut and remove the shell to have your own empty container within which to lay your drivers, etc.  If you decide to keep the impression material intact, you can use it as padding and damping material for the drivers you lay within the halves of your new shell.  You'll have to cut away enough rubbery material to position your drivers but wrapping them in this rubbery material may be an effective way to damp their resonance.
   
  I've been thinking about something else.  I'm a big fan of open-air headphones precisely because their open-air backs allow so much resonance to be released rather than become an echoey headache.  Baffle-less IEMs don't work, because the lack of a proper seal just kills the bass.  However, there's a difference between sealing the tip and sealing up the entire driver.  One of the most pervasive complaints about IEMs is the lack of soundstage.  There are ways to improve the situation, such as by using the widest-range drivers (to get that airy top end in HF) and low-passing the bass to the max, so that the bass doesn't crowd the midrange.  But resonance merits attention, too.  If the rear of the driver could be vented while the area from the front of the driver to the driver tip were sealed, you'd have a true open-baffle design, one that would cut a lot of spikes that limit how high these drivers can be cranked.  Doing so would help bring out a sculpted bass while preserving the airiness needed to present a larger soundstage.
   
  Of course, the proof is in the pudding.


----------



## Bilavideo

I got the Shapelock today.  It came in a medium-sized bag.  I'm planning to play with it tomorrow.  I'll probably start small and attempt some custom tips, along the lines of Westone's UM56.  We're just talking about replacing a soft foamy with a hard plastic, but the hard plastic should be some improvement over foam.
   
  My next project will be to use the impressions I made from a home kit as a model for a Shapelock facsimile.  If I could have a plastic version of what I got from the impression material, I think I'd have something cool.
   
  I'll update with pix.


----------



## Bilavideo




----------



## piotrus-g

Quote: 





bilavideo said:


> If the rear of the driver could be vented while the area from the front of the driver to the driver tip were sealed, you'd have a true open-baffle design, one that would cut a lot of spikes that limit how high these drivers can be cranked.  Doing so would help bring out a sculpted bass while preserving the airiness needed to present a larger soundstage.
> 
> Of course, the proof is in the pudding.


 
  The TWFK driver is vented. Sonion offers vented drivers such as 2300i which is one of my potential favorites to the-best-wideband-driver. There're also 2000i and 2600i I believe. And of course vented 3300 known from SE530.
  I'd assume vented 2000 to be a bass-monstrum


----------



## Bilavideo

Quote: 





piotrus-g said:


> The TWFK driver is vented. Sonion offers vented drivers such as 2300i which is one of my potential favorites to the-best-wideband-driver. There're also 2000i and 2600i I believe. And of course vented 3300 known from SE530.
> I'd assume vented 2000 to be a bass-monstrum


 
   
  I should clarify my point.  You are absolutely right: the drivers, themselves, are vented.  Guess what's not?  The shells.  I've owned an array of IEMs, not one of which had vented shells.  Even my beloved UM3Xs, which use the TWFK driver, don't sport vented shells.  Nor do I see any venting on the customs, except when somebody wants to pipe in ambient noise.
   
  I'm talking about sealing the front of the IEM, to lock in the pressure and enhance the bass, but maintaining an open-air venting of the driver backs.  There are various ways to do this, including a tubation of the rear of the driver so that back-wave resonance is discharged.  I don't know what effect this would have upon sound isolation but, to me, it's worth exploring.  After all, nobody is doing it.  Why not us?


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote: 





bilavideo said:


> I don't know what effect this would have upon sound isolation but, to me, it's worth exploring.  After all, nobody is doing it.  Why not us?


 

 Complete lack of isolation. What's more external sounds would interfere with sound form driver. IMHO it'd be totally mess.
  How ever I saw back vented shells in IE8 and FutureSonic Ear Monitor reshells. So it seems dynamics need venting


----------



## Bilavideo

I think I'd still like to experiment with rear venting of the driver.  I don't want to compromise the seal.  I just want to do something about that closed-in sound.  At the very least, I would think a sound damping would help.  A small plastic shell is an echoey world.  I don't want that in my music.  It may be less of an issue with BAs because of the way they work, as opposed to the dynamics.  This milliwattage of power generates very tiny amounts of SPL, reducing the extent of the problem, but there are aspects of the loudspeaker world that could and should be considered in IEM design.


----------



## micgao (May 7, 2020)

.


----------



## AVU

This thread is so immense, I'm going to try my luck asking some of the more experienced members here:
   
  I lost the acoustic filter on the treble port of one of my JH13's.  Well, technically the lab doing the remolding lost it.  But anyway, I'm not sure JH will cover this bc they were bought secondhard, and I wanted to know if there was any place that I could buy a replacement filter, and if anyone here knew what it was (or could make an educated guess.)  I can post pictures of the other filter for visual reference, if that would help.
   
  Thanks!
  Andrew
   
  Edit - just FYI, I've contacted JH, so we'll see what they say.  But I was just wondering what people ended up using for the triples to cover the dual highs, since it (might) be comparable/identical?


----------



## cyberspyder

Quote: 





avu said:


> This thread is so immense, I'm going to try my luck asking some of the more experienced members here:
> 
> I lost the acoustic filter on the treble port of one of my JH13's.  Well, technically the lab doing the remolding lost it.  But anyway, I'm not sure JH will cover this bc they were bought secondhard, and I wanted to know if there was any place that I could buy a replacement filter, and if anyone here knew what it was (or could make an educated guess.)  I can post pictures of the other filter for visual reference, if that would help.
> 
> ...


 

 Doesn't hurt in asking JH does it? Try them first.


----------



## aysheep

Count me in! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 May be I can help in this project. It is so exciting!


----------



## aysheep

Can anyone help me find a acoustic damper supplier, I google it for a long time and found nothing. What supplier should I contact?


----------



## ujamerstand

http://www.knowles.com/search/product.htm?x_sub_cat_id=15
   
  asked them for their distributors in your location. Have fun,


----------



## aysheep

Thx, Ujamerstand. [update: KA Damper now available at Mouser] 
   
  I have also ordered serveral items in Warner Tech Care. I asked Lee to ship it to Hong Kong. He then got me the estimated freight cost of my order: nearly $60 for $190 worth of material and tools.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  I am not sure whether accept the deal or cacnel it and go Egger, They have a agent in Hong Kong called Phonak hearing centre. Phonak have everything for making a earmold but I'm sure that I can't got a westone impression material for $0.18 each there.
   
  How do you guys get samples from Knowles and Sonion. How do you ask them? Should I said anything about my intention?


----------



## ujamerstand

Quote: 





aysheep said:


> Thx, Ujamerstand. [update: KA Damper now available at Mouser]
> 
> I have also ordered serveral items in Warner Tech Care. I asked Lee to ship it to Hong Kong. He then got me the estimated freight cost of my order: nearly $60 for $190 worth of material and tools.
> 
> ...


 

 190 dollars worth of materials?! Did you buy all the expensive resins or something? Just go with whoever is cheaper, nothing wrong with that. About the samples, just ask. Tell them the exact models that you need, and state your intentions. Shipping charges may apply. Apparently Knowles has an office in Taiwan, so you might want to phone/email them first. You guys even get Sonion distributors right in Hongkong! Us in North America are not so lucky...


----------



## MaoDi

Quote: 





bilavideo said:


> I should clarify my point.  You are absolutely right: the drivers, themselves, are vented.  Guess what's not?  The shells.  I've owned an array of IEMs, not one of which had vented shells.  Even my beloved UM3Xs, which use the TWFK driver, don't sport vented shells.  Nor do I see any venting on the customs, except when somebody wants to pipe in ambient noise.


 
   
  There's no point of vented shells. The drivers themselves can't even move close to the amount of air in the shell.


----------



## semisight

Hey, Bilavideo (or someone else who has invested their time in this), have you thought about/attempted to do something like the JH-3A? I read a few pages back you were talking about crossovers, but maybe if you pulled the crossover out of the shell (at the expense of portability) and built a proper phase coherent crossover you'd get some nice results.
   
  Just thinking out loud here. Do you think if I asked JH audio to make me a JH5/7 without crossovers they would?


----------



## tsn141

the making active x-over is difficult as my electronical engineering student-friends said also you can a hallow shell-constructed from a hearing aid company by acrylic after this you can add drivers also apply damping and tubing free; however , there is a isolation problem is occur i solved this problem using cotton 
   
  Quote: 





> Hey, Bilavideo (or someone else who has invested their time in this), have you thought about/attempted to do something like the JH-3A? I read a few pages back you were talking about crossovers, but maybe if you pulled the crossover out of the shell (at the expense of portability) and built a proper phase coherent crossover you'd get some nice results.
> 
> Just thinking out loud here. Do you think if I asked JH audio to make me a JH5/7 without crossovers they would?


----------



## semisight

An active crossover shouldn't be that bad, you could probably adapt a Linkwitz-Riley filter to work with an IEM, you'd just have to change the power of the output stage.


----------



## piotrus-g

Don't know if the thread is still alive but here's an update
   
  Knowles released new driver series GP and GQ, if I'm correct. Both utilize woofer-tweeter configuration. They are designed to be easy-to-use drivers for pro Audio. Also they come with integrated crossover which can be adjusted to meet designer preferences.
  Frequency responce is quite good.
  I don't know if they will be available on the market or only on a special request, though


----------



## ujamerstand

I've got some of the materials, like the hypo-allergenic lacquer and molding stuff, but I haven't buy the drivers yet. I was thinking about mounting some large SFI planar drivers as an experiment first. Glad to see there are still people who is interested in this topic. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Yeah, I found the GP series in their 2010 Design guide. There is one part number, GP-30711-000, and GQ-30783-000 for the GQ series. Somebody buy some samples?


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:  





> Somebody buy some samples?


 


 Samples are free of charge, mate. You can be first to try


----------



## Bilavideo

I had some dead picture links back around page 130.  Someone was gracious enough to alert me to the problem.  I'm currently working on it.


----------



## oslpag

For those who are still reading this thread and interested in making their own shells this could be useful
   
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWdwikZoXzA&feature=related


----------



## Madebynick

Following this thread inspired me to make my own IEM's about 6 months ago. The units shown below are version 1, containing a single BA driver taken from some UE phones. 
   
  The result was surprisingly AMAZING.I will never wear universals again. 
   
  All in, these probably cost me about £40 and a month of my time learning how to make hearing aids. I did the impressions, moulds, shells, and cables myself. 
   
  And yes. I'm damn proud. 
   
  Watch out for version 2 - double or triple drivers in a clear housing with MCX connectors on new cable.


----------



## piotrus-g

Oh, my .... GOD! They are amazing! Please share a bigger photo. Well, these are truly Home Made IEMs. I'm speachless.


----------



## Kibble Fat

Forgot to subscribe months ago.  Time to catch up on some reading


----------



## oslpag

Great stuff. What did you use for the acrylic?


----------



## Sil3nce

Interesting.
  The cost for the work and the labor-intensive process.
  Whoo!


----------



## batphink




----------



## brooks00

Quote: 





madebynick said:


> Following this thread inspired me to make my own IEM's about 6 months ago. The units shown below are version 1, containing a single BA driver taken from some UE phones.
> 
> The result was surprisingly AMAZING.I will never wear universals again.
> 
> ...


 

  
  I am looking to do this, but for custom sleeves. Could you share your process?


----------



## Madebynick

To make my earmoulds I used a skin safe silicone for the makeup industry and injected it into my ears after inserting a foam plug I cut with a hole punch. Once these were done, I dipped them in wax and cast a negative mould using a 2 part silicone mould material. 

Using this mould I was then able to cast some plaster replicas of my impressions which I carved to the shape I wanted. These then got a coat of wax and a second negative mould was made. 

Using this final mould I rotationally cast some shells using a 2 part fast setting resin (can't quite remember the type of plastic off the top of my head. I'll look it up for you)

Once these hollow shells were made, it was simply a case of cutting off the top and stuffing the electronics inside. 

Simple huh?


(on a side note, how do i upload a big image? The 'add image tool' seems to resize it for me..?!)


----------



## brooks00

Quote: 





madebynick said:


> To make my earmoulds I used a skin safe silicone for the makeup industry and injected it into my ears after inserting a foam plug I cut with a hole punch. Once these were done, I dipped them in wax and cast a negative mould using a 2 part silicone mould material.
> 
> Using this mould I was then able to cast some plaster replicas of my impressions which I carved to the shape I wanted. These then got a coat of wax and a second negative mould was made.
> 
> ...


 

 How did you do your rotational cast?


----------



## Madebynick

Just pour in the material and rotate the mould until it gels. Easy!


----------



## brooks00

Do you remember what resin you used yet?


----------



## aysheep

I made my home made custom on August, then I put it aside and almost forgot to upload some results here =)


----------



## Kibble Fat

album set to private?


----------



## ardgedee

Edit out the [/IMG] at the end of the URLs.
   
  Fascinating thread, btw. Hats off to everybody doing this.


----------



## batphink

Quote: 





aysheep said:


> I made my home made custom on August, then I put it aside and almost forgot to upload some results here =)


----------



## AVU

The review of the UE Reference monitor says that they are available in "two slightly different versions for the same price, one with a standard acrylic "shell" (or body) that provides up to 26 dB of sound isolation, or the Reference Monitor can be ordered with a soft silicone material over the acrylic shell that provides up to 32 dB of noise isolation." I'm really curious what this "soft silicon material" over the shell could be, and whether it wouldn't be possible to buy this an coat a normal pair of acrylic shells for better isolation.  Anyone have any ideas?

: http://news.cnet.com/8301-13645_3-20025308-47.html#ixzz1CVINfJpL​​


----------



## tsn141

here is my second work.
  it works great.i used very lowly concept:dual drivers with single way.
  i used dual 2323 and 680 ohm dampers. due to long sound tube it delivers balanced sound.
  here is photos
  http://img80.imageshack.us/g/dscf3551q.jpg/
  thanks again to starter and developers of this thread.


----------



## calipilot227

I'm interested to see if anyone can make universal shells. I'm a little skeptical about injecting any substance into my ear canal for impressions (and going to an audiologist would be an added cost). Who knows? Maybe someone can find a way to replicate the Westone 3 shell that receives such high accolades...


----------



## dye1337

Edit: found a better way and head-fi will find out about it soon enough


----------



## udauda

I am currently making custom silicone sleeves for my Etymotic ER-4B:
http://rinchoi.blogspot.com/2011/03/so-pissssed-off-will-diy-custom-sleeves.html


----------



## TheGomdoRi

Very impressive, such great talents I wish I had DIY skills like that lol


----------



## Foress

any specific adapter names?
  there are so many, i'm kind of confused.
  a link to it would be excellent.
   
  Thanks!
  
  Quote: 





musick7 said:


> The Cables aren't a big deal, actually you can purchase the Adapters I believe though DigiKey.com or Mouser.com. Your talking about the Cable that plugs into the Ipod or whatever? You want the little 2 port connecter that is mounted inside the ear mold right? If thats it there really really cheap... maybe 3 bucks probably .50 cents.
> 
> If you play your cards right you can get much if not all for very very cheap. Sonion.com and Knowles.com have the Receivers "Speakers. There is some other places that make them too but those are the top Players I believe. You can Have your Ear Impression done by an Audiologist or do it your self. An Audiologist will charge between $50. - $90. There are Many Websites that will Tell you EXACTLY how to do an Impression. Westone has a great Tutorial along with many others. And once that is done Send them to a place like, In'Tech Industries Incorported - Manufacture of miniature plastic hearing aid component parts, faceplates, battery doors and other hearing aid components.
> Which is where I am having my CIC shells made. For my Hearing Aid Project.
> ...


----------



## Foress

also, there are the UM Merlins, a hybrid of BA and Dynamic drivers.
  what Dynamic drivers do they use, and where do they get them from?
  anyone has recommendations for the best Dynamic drivers, and can anyone possibly post a comparison?
   
  Thanks!


----------



## TheGomdoRi

I just saw the 2nd IEM with the orange and white cables, I know you can do a better job twisting them lol 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 Get that tight weave action going on~

 150th post goes to you and your IEM


----------



## paqpaq

Hi guys.
   
  I'm only at page 42 reading this thread.
  Awesome!
   
  I'm one of those guys who actually make the shells and assemble. (I'm in Europe)
  It was for compositions of drivers and filters I happened to find this thread.
   
   
  SO!
  why not help each other maybe?
  If one could pre-assemble their choice of drivers (soldered etc) and a good (!) deep enough impression (preferably slightly pressured) I will make the shells and implement the electronics, tubing etc, and close up the shell again. I will connect it to a 2 pin scoket in the shell.
   
  Not shure yet what this all should cost though...


----------



## Archwn

Have just bought TF10x4 from one of the club member. Now finish reading 60+ pages plus waiting UM (and Maodi) to response, I'm not quite sure getting TF10x4 remolded is my answer or should I go for a fresh start.
   
  Guys, Please correct me. I got this from somewhere but don't think this is 100% accurate. (MOD please delete if this is not appropriate)
   
  My interests is in JH13 (many people said it's the best in the market by miles) / TF10x4 (what I have now - quite good already without remolding) / SE530 (many people praise for its good textured mids and this seems to be my cup of tea)
   
  The others are just for the record 
   
  JH13Pro
  High TWFK - (Custom Made according to Maodi)
  Mid DTEC - (Custom Made (Maodi))
  Low DTEC - (Sonion 3300 Custom Made (Maodi))
  
  TF10x4 (UM)
 High UELE (Sonion 2300 Custom (Maodi))
  Mid ???
 Low UEXXXE (Sonion 3300 Custom (Maodi))

 SE530
 High ???
 Low DTEC
  
  -------------------------------------------------------------------------

 E5C
 High ED-23619-000
 Low CI-22955-XXX

 E3C
 BK-28562-XXX

 E4C
 26805

 E1C
 BK-28507-XXX

 UM2
  High ED-29689-XXX
 Low CI-22955-XXX

 ES2
 High 29829
 Low CI-22955-XXX

 ER4a/b/p
 ED-29689-XXX

 Q-Jay
  TWFK

 ES3X/UM3X
  High TWFK-30017
 Low CI-22955-XXX
  
  ER6i
 Star Microsonic RBB

 SF5 Pro
 High UELOWE
 Low UELHIE
   
  TF10 Pro
 High UELE (Sonion 2300 Custom (Maodi))
 Low UEXXXE (Sonion 3300 Custom (Maodi))


----------



## normalife

I just saw this post and wondering what should I need instead of the drivers and the shell?
  what wire should i use for soldering and how should i should them right?
  Can I use a shure e5c shell? or is there any other better choice?
  (my jh10x3 have another tiny chip on the top instead of the 3 drivers, anyone know what that is?)
   
   
   
  Quote: 





archwn said:


> Have just bought TF10x4 from one of the club member. Now finish reading 60+ pages plus waiting UM (and Maodi) to response, I'm not quite sure getting TF10x4 remolded is my answer or should I go for a fresh start.
> 
> Guys, Please correct me. I got this from somewhere but don't think this is 100% accurate. (MOD please delete if this is not appropriate)
> 
> ...


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote: 





archwn said:


> Have just bought TF10x4 from one of the club member. Now finish reading 60+ pages plus waiting UM (and Maodi) to response, I'm not quite sure getting TF10x4 remolded is my answer or should I go for a fresh start.
> 
> Guys, Please correct me. I got this from somewhere but don't think this is 100% accurate. (MOD please delete if this is not appropriate)
> 
> ...


 
  Your list is rather accurate.
  I thought about making such a list but I don't know if it was ok with manufacturers
   
  SF5pro = propietrary Sonion 2000 lows and 2300 highs
  SE530 = Sonion 3300 lows/mids and 2300 or 1700 highs


----------



## Archwn

Quote: 





normalife said:


> I just saw this post and wondering what should I need instead of the drivers and the shell?
> what wire should i use for soldering and how should i should them right?
> Can I use a shure e5c shell? or is there any other better choice?
> (my jh10x3 have another tiny chip on the top instead of the 3 drivers, anyone know what that is?)


 
  Hi Normalife,
 Apart from drivers selection and the shell, you would need very small wires, sound tubes, very skillful hands and good crossovers/filters selection.
  You can use any shells as long as everything fits in but custom shell would be more beneficial. Or you could combine both - check this out 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  The tiny chip you mentioned in the 10x3 might be a small surface mount capacitor or resistor used as a simple crossover.


  Quote: 





piotrus-g said:


> Your list is rather accurate.
> I thought about making such a list but I don't know if it was ok with manufacturers
> 
> SF5pro = propietrary Sonion 2000 lows and 2300 highs
> SE530 = Sonion 3300 lows/mids and 2300 or 1700 highs


 

 Hi piotrus-g,
  I think it might be ok since we listed them just to get the picture and their drivers are often found to be proprietary ones anyway. I am curious though how different of them from the stock ones.
  If your list is valid, then SE530 is almost identical to TF10. Should it be down to crossover/filter that make them sound so different?
  
  I was not quite finish my first post yet. Just want to point out that can TWFK be advertised as a dual high driver instead of single high and single low? The point is that if the dual driver design significantly reduces the mechanical vibration with maximised output, it would be good for the sound reproduction and I want to use it for my high, mid and low. Unfortunately I can not find any dual high drivers yet. Anyone?


----------



## piotrus-g

SE530 use vented Sonion 3300 which alows to move more air and open up the sound, whilst TF10 use closed design. The rest is impednace/resistance SPL corssover points and passive filters, also sound bores (dual in TF10) and so on. Sometimes drivers differ in used motor inside the driver. So knowing series or even numbering of a driver can't really give you all information.
   
  TWFK is good choice for dual high, however there's no use making 3xTWFK (lows,mids,highs)
  There's dual ED driver, it's named EJ I believe. Though this one is big and will be extreme for highs i guess. IMHO there's no need putting dual highs. Drivers like ED or 2300 will make your highs sparkling and extended.
  Typical design with TWFK as a dual high will include Sonion 3300 for lows and DTEC for mids.
  You could use dual CI/2000 for lows and single 3300/DTEC for mids.
   
  Westone ES5 has dual mids and dual high based on TWFK drivers


----------



## Archwn

Ahh. that's very nice piece of information thank you. One thing to clarify is that on the post #267 in this thread Maodi said SE530 low driver is actually DTEC. Could this be changed from time to time as I suspect in JH13 inconsistency as well?
   
  I might lead you wrong a bit I'm not intend to use 3xTWFK I mean 1 TWFK for high, other 2 dual drivers for mid and low which I don't know the name yet. But since I would not classify TWFK as a dual high driver, I might have to find something else. Maodi said something like TWFK would be good to 16k and UE700 high driver will be good thru 20k (what do they use in there then?) so there must be good high driver even the dual ones out there.
   
  I'm agree with you I might not need dual high at the end of the day. The 2300 in my TF10x4 do their job quite well already. Almost match my full size can but I don't know, if there's any design that pushes through this boundary, I would use it to get pass my full size if possible.
   
  So you reckon ED or EJ. I remember Maodi (nahh! again) said he likes ED29689 for the good textured mids(maybe he changes his mind already). You reckon these guys can go really high as well? Should I go for the fluid damped ones as well you reckon?
   
  If it is down to you, what sort of high/mid/low driver you will use for your IEM?
   
  Then we will discuss about drivers for low. Again, thanks a lot for your time and effort on this project


----------



## piotrus-g

There're some changes made by IEM designers for example 1964Ears used to make triples and quads with Sonion and Knowles drivers (2000 and CI) interchangeably.
  I'm 99% sure se530 have 3300
   
  Yes, you can use TWFK drivers as a dual high. There're lot of companies that acuatlly use it this way - UM, JH or Westone.
  Performance of a driver can be modified by its application. UE700 is based on TWFK driver. Driver is placed very close to end of sound bore. Sound bore has small ID and damper is probably low valued. That's why you can get well extened highs.
  You can take a look on how close to eardrum JH places its TWFK and how far UM does. It changes peaks and overall response of the driver.
   
  I believe you will not surpass full size headphones. IMHO it simply won't happen. Full size headphones always are giving you feel-like sound, because sound also travels through bones and outer ear. Something that none of custom will give you.
  I'm not talking about clarity or separation though.
   
  ED you mentioned is great driver. You can find it in ER4 so if you know what's the people's opinion on Etys I guess I don't have to say more 
   
  I haven't heard anything fluid damped maybe because it's special design for Hearing Aids. It has peakfree response but it doesn't mean good sound, though
   
  If I were you I'd consider following:
  3300 x2 (lows mids) TWFK (highs)
  3300 x2 (lows mids) 2300 (highs)
  3300 (lows) DTEC (mids) TWFK/2300 (highs)
  3800/3700 (lows) CI/2000/3300/DTEC (mids) TWFK/2300 (highs)
   
  There're lots of driver you can use in almost infinite configuration. You have to know what sound you expect. If you want big bass it's obvious I aren't going to use small driver for bass like 2300, TWFK or 3100
   
  BTW. I've tried to get in touch with MaoDi some time ago, but he hasn't replied. Does any one know what's going on? I havn't also seen him on head-fi for about half-year now.


----------



## Archwn

I don't know. I would call TWFK a single high and single low, not dual high. I wonder what do they make use of the low driver in TWFK though or they just cross it out.
   
  Anyway, you have very good eyes pointing out the port length/size and filters. I have a close look on JH13 pictures and yeah its high drivers are very close to the tip. Having a glance at JH5 pics and I can see a stock CI-22955 for lows as well. 
   
  I know it's same story asking for headphone's soundstage to match decent speakers. They might be as good as or even better in some other aspects.
   
  I have heard treble lovers praise er4 but I am a little bit concerned.(which is why I asked previously) I have bought er6i from one of the club member who had both 6i and 4p. It was my first IEM and at that time it is very good, very flat and the micro details are very good. He told me 6i is almost at 4p. I saw the ety famous advertising graph and quite agree it's almost identical. I later compared 6i with my full size (AKG) and clearly see 6i has no treble details and extension. I think now you might get my point why I'm concerned about using ED as a tweeter.
   
  So, from your preference, I might just need remolding then  Do you have any idea what kind of mid driver UM put in their TF10x4 and what JH16 used for their double dual lows?
   
  I googled this morning and found one Maodi who appears to be a korean or taiwanese star. No evidence to conclude he's the one though :X


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote: 





archwn said:


> I don't know. I would call TWFK a single high and single low, not dual high. I wonder what do they make use of the low driver in TWFK though or they just cross it out.
> 
> Anyway, you have very good eyes pointing out the port length/size and filters. I have a close look on JH13 pictures and yeah its high drivers are very close to the tip. Having a glance at JH5 pics and I can see a stock CI-22955 for lows as well.
> 
> ...


 

 I thought MaoDi is like 17 years old, isn't he? MaoDi turning to be a star that would be something 
   
  Now I can see why are you afraid of ED drivers. I haven't heard ER4 but I did own ER6i. I consider it as more bass-lacking than highs. ER6 uses StarMicronics driver without spout so sound can be really different.
  However, I heard HF2 (also ED) and they are still bright ety style but step ahead of ER6.
  You may also be interested in Audeo's Sonion 2300. Audeo highs are one of the most extened out there.
   
  If I were to guess TF10x4 have Sonion 3300 -lows (UE prop.) Sonion 2000/KA CI - mids Sonion 2300 (UE prop.) - highs. That's basiacly what UE11 is based on.
  CI or 2000 is one of the most typical and best choices for mid driver due to it's smoothness
  I really have no idea about JH16 I suppose 2x3300 or 2xDTEC but maybe they used some other drivers.
   
  TWFKs' drivers wired in series will make them work as a one, won't they?


----------



## Archwn

Yeah the age is match at least! That star guy was born in 90s something IIRC X)
   
  When I first tried 6i I was almost shocked. No bass at all and everything didn't sound right. But then if you open your mouth plug and twist it deep (very deep infact or as deep as possible) enough to get a proper seal, it is the different story. I would describe 6i bass is more like a small bookshelf speakers. It's there but it's just not enough to compare with the system with subwoofer. To me, I find it's a bit lean too I wish it has more deep bass which will make it much more fun to listen to but it is acceptable.
   
  From what I can see, this extra driver is big and chunky compared with 2300 and 3300 in that nutshells. It appears UM have added CI as an extra mid driver in their TF10x4. Maybe you are right.
   
  My assumption is based on KA driver selection guide (I would rather call it an advertising guide) it says something like TWFK is FK driver with added tweeter. It didn't say FK driver with extend high frequency capability. So I assume it is not a true dual driver as the driver one side which is FK would be different from the other side which is an extra tweeter. So the mechanical vibration cancelation would be less than ideal.
   
  See post #110 in this thread:-
   
  Quote: 





> TWFK SERIES – Dual Balanced Armature Speaker 5.00 x 2.73 x 3.86 (mm)The world’s smallest dual balanced armature speaker, the TWFK is designed for pro-audio in-ear applications. Enables customized cross-over systems to achieve target frequency response in a package size smaller than the ED Series
> •Single sound port for simplified earphone design
> •Extreme wideband frequency response
> •Unique woofer/tweeter combination
> ...


----------



## piotrus-g

Maybe you have a point. In this case I'd recommend single drivers over TWFK. On my second thought I'm wondering how much driver vibrate at HF. I believe that driver is stable at high frequencies.
  Also how UM, JH or Westone used TWFK as a dual high driver. Maybe FK is not that bad? I guess that FK as a wideband driver can work over 2kHz as well.
   
  If you go back few pages where MaoDi shows his new customs, you'll find a description of dual (AFAIR) WBFK. He mentioned very extended, edgy highs.


----------



## Archwn

dzień dobry piotrus-g, (my best mate taught me these long time ago 
   
  I bet the driver wouldn't vibrate that much and will be stable on the HF. Like you said the benefit might be small. Sonion 2300 and TWFK are the obvious choice at the moment. It's just my curiosity if we could find the true dual high driver.
   
  From Knowles Drivers Selection Guide, It appears TWFK = WBFK + FK so yeah the WBFK is the high driver we've been talking about.
   
  Have you tried 2300 / TWFK on the same setup (same port length / filter - the optimal ones) Also have you tried 3300 / DTEC head to head and which one you prefer?


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote: 





archwn said:


> dzień dobry piotrus-g, (my best mate taught me these long time ago
> 
> I bet the driver wouldn't vibrate that much and will be stable on the HF. Like you said the benefit might be small. Sonion 2300 and TWFK are the obvious choice at the moment. It's just my curiosity if we could find the true dual high driver.
> 
> ...


 

 Dzień dobry! nice to see someone writting in polish even few words 
   
  I didn't try myself any combination of drivers (except for CI-TWFK) because I don't have time to play with DIY. I place my opinions after hearing many earphones based on those driver. However you simply can't say f.e. 2300 sounds this and that, because you can tune drivers to suit your design. So you can have 2300 with rolled off highs or with sibiliants. It all depends. Though you can be sure that using 2300 for highs is one of the best choice. It should be used as a fullrange or dedicated tweeter.


----------



## normalife

Where can u find the shield for yr iem???


----------



## coolben

Was inspired to try my hand at this, but being a DIY failure, my epoxy casts keep splitting or cracking when I attempt to put holes into them...


----------



## Confispect

Pics


----------



## wdahm519

We tried this at Michigan State University, in the Audio Enthusiasts and Engineers group (http://www.aeemsu.com).  I made the male molds, female molds, but then didn't really finish up because that faction of the group kind of fell apart.  I was also really busy trying to finish my amp before Design Day.
   
  I'd love to see this completed sometime though.


----------



## coolben

Found some interesting links,
   
  Revolving around the usage of Silicon Caulk:
http://www.instructables.com/id/Make-a-silicone-mold-from-common-household-materia/
http://www.instructables.com/id/Custom-Fit-Earbuds/
http://www.instructables.com/id/How-To-Make-Your-Own-Sugru-Substitute/


----------



## Foress

i'm failing too. i have no idea what to do.
  could anyone make up a list of items we'd need?
  i only know we need drivers. any list for me to get?


----------



## Archwn

This video is worth looking if you want to make yourself IEMs. If you have already watched this video, please skip this.
   




   
  For ones who have problems with shells, best bet is to ask your local audiologist for an empty shell. Then you can go from there. You might even be able to buy all stuff you would need for your IEMs from them or at least ask them for help.
   
  For an idea, this is what I have done with my STAX SR-001 MK2 - a custom prototype.


----------



## Spasticteapot

Has anyone here tried building a measurement jig for these? Stands to reason there's no reason you couldn't plug the data into a standard crossover design program (like PCD, which is free!) and make a really excellent IEM.


----------



## kaixax555

Having seen this thread, I have some interest in making my own DIY IEM in the future.
   
  I have some questions, what kind of wires do you use to join the armatures? And how do you join those wires to the armatures without affecting the armature itself?
   
  Thanks in advance.


----------



## Archwn

I plan to use 0.15mm cryo treated pure silver wire from Audio Consulting Switzerland. I also have an eye on TWAg.
   
  You can go for basic wires by asking your local BA dealer. I'm pretty sure they carry these kinda stuff.
   
  Check out the driver handling guide from the manufacturer and they will tell you what kind of soldering iron / solder / flux to use and how long can you left your soldering iron on may be 2 sec.
   
  I am thinking about not solder directly to the driver at all but to some kind of removable socket then we can snap the driver in once the soldering is completed.


----------



## coolben

I'm documenting my progress.
http://www.instructables.com/id/Making-a-custom-in-ear-monitor/
  Disclaimer: Not having very good progress...


----------



## zamborretto

I'm new to this thread...it's very cool!
   
  I'm building my own hearing aids and I'm trying to find some sockets, like those used by most recent UE.
   
  I finded those used by westone and others, but seems less stable than those used by UE...do you have any idea were I can find them? And also the right cables?
   
  Thanks!


----------



## Yroc

I have been reading through this thread for a couple days now and must say that I am very impressed with everyone's knowledge and builds. Over the recent discussion on shell materials I would like to add that Polycaprolactone (shapelock, instamorph, friendly plastic, etc.) is actually used in the medical industry and in dentistry. In fact on its wiki page it even stated that it has been used as a drug capsule for time release medications. If you can consume the stuff it would be safe to say that having it rest in your ear would be perfectly safe. I am also curious where people are sourcing their sonion driver/receivers from? I believe I read that Newark Electronics has some of the better pricing, however they don't seem to carry Sonion and they don't have the KA CI or TWFK models.


----------



## piotrus-g

Newark had CI and TWFK drivers. Personally I bought CI drivers from them.
  Sonion drivers sells colsanmicro and audiotronics.it.


----------



## deadsea

Quote: 





yroc said:


> I have been reading through this thread for a couple days now and must say that I am very impressed with everyone's knowledge and builds. Over the recent discussion on shell materials I would like to add that Polycaprolactone (shapelock, instamorph, friendly plastic, etc.) is actually used in the medical industry and in dentistry. In fact on its wiki page it even stated that it has been used as a drug capsule for time release medications. If you can consume the stuff it would be safe to say that having it rest in your ear would be perfectly safe. I am also curious where people are sourcing their sonion driver/receivers from? I believe I read that Newark Electronics has some of the better pricing, however they don't seem to carry Sonion and they don't have the KA CI or TWFK models.


 
   
  The Polycaprolactone is very safe and it's bio-degradable too (Good? Bad?). There is the potential to need replacement every 2-3 years since in the proper conditions, it's supposed to fully break down in around 2 years. It's supposed to degrade faster when wet and exposed to sunlight. Fairly high potential for those conditions in earphones?
   
  But no better excuse to upgraded the drivers then they broke i guess. =)


----------



## Yroc

Polycaprolactone is by no means the end all of iem materials, but for the diy'er it would seem to be one of the better choices. Furthermore, you could always take a heat gun/ hair dryer to it to try and re fit it, just don't leave them on the dash board of your car . I must have been looking in the wrong place on Newark because on second inspection I found them, though they don't seem to be in stock at the moment. Colsan and Audiotronics.it do not list what they stock or pricing so I suppose one would have to contact them for this information. Also, I can only find the 3000 series on Colsan, this could very well be my searching error though. Regarding multiple drivers and the use of crossovers, it may be fun to use an additional socket on the iem or a three prong plug/wire combo so as you could add them externally. I am not as well educated in the subject as the rest of you, but it would make experimenting and tuning easy.


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote: 





yroc said:


> Colsan and Audiotronics.it do not list what they stock or pricing so I suppose one would have to contact them for this information.


 
  I have already put pricing here. Go back to page around 40, I believe.
  Audiotronics has better prices AFAIR. Something like €12 for one 3300.


----------



## Yroc

Quote: 





piotrus-g said:


> I have already put pricing here. Go back to page around 40, I believe.
> Audiotronics has better prices AFAIR. Something like €12 for one 3300.


 

 Thank you sir for the information.


----------



## deadsea

yroc said:


> Polycaprolactone is by no means the end all of iem materials, but for the diy'er it would seem to be one of the better choices. Furthermore, you could always take a heat gun/ hair dryer to it to try and re fit it, just don't leave them on the dash board of your car .




Oh no, I'm not saying if it's good or bad. Just wanted to put the fact that it's biodegradable out there and preferably in caps and bold flashing neon lights. 

I've actually seen a website dedicated to trashing the material because some idiot decided that it's a good idea to make artworks out of that material semi-professionally. Guess what happened 2 years down the road. Don't want anyone to regret the "wasted" effort so to speak.


----------



## howzitboy

great thread win so much info! gratz on all who contributed. reading this sure makes you want to try make one...


----------



## Fredrichs

Would it be possible to use acrylic nail resin for the shell's?


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote: 





fredrichs said:


> Would it be possible to use acrylic nail resin for the shell's?


 


 And how are going to cure it?


----------



## Fredrichs

I ended up getting a hold of some of the stuff and tried some in a failed silicone mold. It seemed to work, cures pretty hard. Supposedly its basically the same as dental acrylic and once cured, shouldn't be reactive to skin. You just mix the powder with the liquid and rotationally cast it. Heats up and gels very quickly. Surface finish is slightly porous, but could have been the mold. Still needs some testing.


----------



## Yroc

Quote: 





fredrichs said:


> I ended up getting a hold of some of the stuff and tried some in a failed silicone mold. It seemed to work, cures pretty hard. Supposedly its basically the same as dental acrylic and once cured, shouldn't be reactive to skin. You just mix the powder with the liquid and rotationally cast it. Heats up and gels very quickly. Surface finish is slightly porous, but could have been the mold. Still needs some testing.


 


  Pictures perhaps? Do you have a source for the acrylic?


----------



## Fredrichs

The piece is pretty malformed but, ill see if i can get a picture up. The acrylic I used I got from my sister. It's a powder and liquid available at Sally's Beauty Supply. Preferably Actual dental acrylic would be ideal it's suppose to be harder. http://www.fxwarehouse.info/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=FW&Category_Code=Fangs. Haven't used that stuff yet though. Still needs testing. The acrylic looks very promising. Though for the time being my project is at a standstill from lack of funds.
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/542359/homemade-custom-sleeves-for-westone-1
  Also check out this link he uses dental acrylic for the same idea.


----------



## edba2000

This is the most interesting thread I know!!!
   
  You have to agree that is not easy to read all the posts and collect the valid information to start a purchase list!
  It would be great if someone can post store links selling the materials (Europe if possible):
   
  1) Acoustic tubing
  2) White and red filters
  3) Sonion drivers (already know one: www.audiotronics.it)
  4) Knowles drivers
  5) Connectors and wire for the cables
  6) acrylics/silicones
   
  Thanks to all.


----------



## nekatrall

Quote: 





edba2000 said:


> This is the most interesting thread I know!!!
> 
> You have to agree that is not easy to read all the posts and collect the valid information to start a purchase list!
> It would be great if someone can post store links selling the materials (Europe if possible):
> ...


 

 i think acoustic tubing u should ask audiotronics
   
  as for knowles and white/red filters try mouser u just need to change the country (spain, italy as local sites)


----------



## edba2000

Here is what I have found:
   
   
  1) Acoustic tubing
     ???
   
  2) White and red filters
     http://www.audiotronics.it
   
  3) Sonion drivers
     http://www.audiotronics.it
   
  4) Knowles drivers
     http://search.digikey.com/us/en/cat/audio-products/speakers/720966?k=knowles
   
  5) Connectors and wire for the cables
     http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MCX-plug-male-crimp-connector-right-angle-4-RG316-RG174-/320713942955
     http://www.ebay.es/itm/MCX-Jack-female-PCB-Board-straight-connector-adapter-/220799181887
   
  6) silicone for the mold:
     http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RTV-Silicone-ZA-40-Thixo-Skin-Safe-Mould-Making-500g-/320441993158?pt=UK_Crafts_Other_Crafts_EH&hash=item4a9bd4c7c6
   
  7) plastic for the shell:
     http://www.amazon.co.uk/Easy-Cast-Clear-Casting-Enamel/dp/B0053TQ1QK/ref=sr_1_cc_1?s=diy&ie=UTF8&qid=1318329688&sr=1-1-catcorr
   
  8) silicone for the impressions:
     http://dentala2z.co.uk/epages/eshop133027.sf/en_GB/?ViewObjectID=185273&Currency=EUR


----------



## TimHKG

1. Does anybody know what is the exact replacement model of the bass driver units(made by Sonion?) using with Ultimate Ears Super.fi 5 Pro?
   
  2. Or is there any some others size-fitting, newer and better replacement bass driver unit suitable for the UE Super.fi 5 Pro?
   
  3. I want to buy several pieces of bass driver units for the UE Super.fi 5 Pro, could anybody suggest links with lowest prices for the direct order?
   
  Thanks in advance!


----------



## edba2000

Sonion drivers are only sold by:
   
http://www.audiotronics.it
   
  or
   
http://www.colsanmicro.com/
   
  unfortunately there is a minimum quantity order of 25 units/driver!


----------



## TimHKG

Quote: 





edba2000 said:


> Sonion drivers are only sold by:
> 
> http://www.audiotronics.it
> 
> ...


 

  
  Thanks for the information! So is there any suitable model number of the bass driver unit manufactured by Knowles suitable for the Super.fi 5 Pro?
   
  Thanks in advance!


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote: 





timhkg said:


> Thanks for the information! So is there any suitable model number of the bass driver unit manufactured by Knowles suitable for the Super.fi 5 Pro?
> 
> Thanks in advance!


 

 Yes, you can order Ci22955 from mouser or any other retailer
  UE super5pro use 2015 however those drivers are propietary so it's not so simple to replace those drivers...


----------



## febtiger

Looks to be a very awesome project. I'm waiting for more updates.
   
  And I'm gonna refuse to buy the expensive custom IEM I was looking at last month. Those 22955s are only $20????????
   
  Mind blown


----------



## skippy

i've been out of the headphone loop for many years and i'm incredibly astounded by the DIY community right now.  this is way past the the crappy grado mods and DIY opamp amps we were doing a decade ago.
   
  so here's my question (sorry if this has been covered already), has anyone tried making cheap etymotics by purchasing the knowles drivers and ER20 ear plugs?  throw in a pair of resistors, some cabling, a plug and cover the mess with some shoe goo/epoxy/heatshrink.  sounds like a couple hours of easy work and not too much cash.
   
  /me heads off to mouser


----------



## edba2000

Yes, that could be an easy solution!
  But you will never get the insulation of a "perfect fit" custom IEM.
   
  Make a real shell with Knowles/Sonion drivers inside. I am currently playing with *EasyCast* casting epoxy resin to make my first shell.
  I will report my results in a couple of weeks...


----------



## eafd

Hey guys, long time lurker here. Wonder if this thread is still alive. Anyhow, I was planning to build my own CIEMs. I'm going to use a TWFK+CI22955 combo. I have all of the drivers and I was soldering them up according to the datasheets when I ran into these notes: On the CI22955, a positive voltage on the positive terminal causes an increase in pressure, while a positive voltage on the positive terminal of the TWFK causes a decrease in pressure. Does this mean I have to wire one of the drivers in backwards?

Datasheets:
http://www.knowles.com/search/prods_pdf/CI-22955-000.pdf
http://www.knowles.com/search/prods_pdf/TWFK-30017-000.pdf

Also, does anyone know where the vent of the TWFK is located? The datasheet mentions vents on the unused terminals, and I'm assuming that the vents are the tiny holes to the outer corners of the top set of contacts. Not sure, though.


----------



## tranhieu

Quote: 





eafd said:


> Hey guys, long time lurker here. Wonder if this thread is still alive. Anyhow, I was planning to build my own CIEMs. I'm going to use a TWFK+CI22955 combo. I have all of the drivers and I was soldering them up according to the datasheets when I ran into these notes: On the CI22955, a positive voltage on the positive terminal causes an increase in pressure, while a positive voltage on the positive terminal of the TWFK causes a decrease in pressure. Does this mean I have to wire one of the drivers in backwards?
> Datasheets:
> http://www.knowles.com/search/prods_pdf/CI-22955-000.pdf
> http://www.knowles.com/search/prods_pdf/TWFK-30017-000.pdf
> Also, does anyone know where the vent of the TWFK is located? The datasheet mentions vents on the unused terminals, and I'm assuming that the vents are the tiny holes to the outer corners of the top set of contacts. Not sure, though.


 
  Yeah I guess that's how you should do it. Not sure though but some guys here had quite a debate about wiring in reverse.
  What about the shells? I reckon you already solve that part?


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote: 





eafd said:


> Hey guys, long time lurker here. Wonder if this thread is still alive. Anyhow, I was planning to build my own CIEMs. I'm going to use a TWFK+CI22955 combo. I have all of the drivers and I was soldering them up according to the datasheets when I ran into these notes: On the CI22955, a positive voltage on the positive terminal causes an increase in pressure, while a positive voltage on the positive terminal of the TWFK causes a decrease in pressure. Does this mean I have to wire one of the drivers in backwards?
> Datasheets:
> http://www.knowles.com/search/prods_pdf/CI-22955-000.pdf
> http://www.knowles.com/search/prods_pdf/TWFK-30017-000.pdf
> Also, does anyone know where the vent of the TWFK is located? The datasheet mentions vents on the unused terminals, and I'm assuming that the vents are the tiny holes to the outer corners of the top set of contacts. Not sure, though.


 
  Yep, that's how mine CI-TWFK is wired.
  If you look at data sheet the vent is located between positiv and negative terminal


----------



## eafd

Awesome, thanks for the wiring advice.

I found some smooth-on crystal clear in trial sizes on some taxidermy site, and I plan to use that for my shells. I've already tried EasyCast epoxy, but it took nearly a week before it fully hardened and even then it's still sort of soft. Smooth on crystal clear 202 hardens fully in just 90 minutes. The only problem is that the urethane can cause sensitization (as someone has stated before) before it's hardened. 

Smooth-on says that crystal clear can be used for jewelry, so I'm assuming that this stuff is okay for long-term contact after hardening. I have access to a vacuum chamber, and I plan to use that to get rid of the bubbles in the mold.

Tip to whoever doesn't have access to a vacuum chamber- bubbles get introduced into the mold when you mix it. Another way to prevent bubbles in the finished product besides using a vacuum is to mix the 2 parts by kneading them in a plastic bag (ziplock style) that has no air in it.


----------



## eafd

I've now finished the electronics on one ear, and gave it a listen with a universal tip. The highs seem really muffled compared to the HF3. I have a white filter on the TWFK right now and a gray filter on the CI, and no crossover ATM. What can I do to increase the treble? I'm going to try a resistor on the CI later this week, I need to go buy some low-value 1% resistors for this.

Edit: I'm sure the TWFK is connected, and the acoustic tubing is clear of obstructions. I also want to add that I had to splice the tube from the CI into the tube from the TWFK because I ordered the regular tubing. I couldn't fit two tubes into my ear canal

More updates: Using a treble boosting EQ makes the treble much better. This thing is very sensitive. What used to be a little bit of static with the HF3s is now very annoying static with the TWFK+CI. 

Even more updates: I've finished the second one now, with just the TWFK connected. The treble is acceptable now, but the CI is not connected. Sounds like the CI is overpowering the TWFK, so I'm going to put a resistor on it and see if anything changes.

Last edit: I have everything connected and it sounds great with this EQ (does serious boosting to the treble and gets rid of the freq humps in the CI): http://grab.by/blaL 
I still don't have a crossover, and I'm waiting for the rest of my molding materials to arrive (hazardous material shipping is different, apparently). 

^Don't do what I did above with the equalizer. Turns out fb2k begins to clip when you turn the EQ above 0dB. Instead, I've shifted everything down so that the top slider is at 0dB and everything else is below.


----------



## piotrus-g

I believe that your design is phased-out.
  TWFK is one of the best high-driver out there. So if you're getting muffled highs something's not right.


----------



## eafd

Should I flip the connections to the TWFK?
   
  The CI is a few millimeters farther away from my ear than the TWFK is; however, I don't think that distance is much of an issue here. A 15KHz signal has a wavelength of .9 inches (23mm), and a 1KHz signal has a wavelength of 344 millimeters. I'm not sure that 2 millimeters will make a change as serious as I'm hearing. I'll flip the connections later today and see if that helps. If not, I'll make the acoustic tubing of the CI shorter, then put a resistor on the CI to quieten it down.
   
  I also want to mention that the UE cable I ordered off of ebay was wired incorrectly. The outside pin on the left was ground, while the inside pin on the right was ground. I wired the plugs accordingly, so that shouldn't matter here.


----------



## eafd

Flipped the connections on the TWFK. Huge, huge difference. The drivers were wired out of phase to begin with; the datasheets were wrong. Now all that's left is the molding, gotta order the plastic and rubber.


----------



## tranhieu

Quote: 





eafd said:


> Flipped the connections on the TWFK. Huge, huge difference. The drivers were wired out of phase to begin with; the datasheets were wrong. Now all that's left is the molding, gotta order the plastic and rubber.


 


  Are you refering to the terminal's polarity? That's weird to know they can make such a mistake.


----------



## eafd

The datasheets said that a positive voltage on the TWFK decreased air pressure while a positive voltage on the CI increased air pressure. I asked about this, and we all came to the conclusion that I should wire one of the drivers in backwards (I did the TWFK). Maybe they have since changed their design? All I know is that the TWFK was out of phase with the CI driver when it was wired backwards.


----------



## tranhieu

I haven't tried the TWFK, they are too expensive to play around with. But being out of phase in this case has more to do with lagging not superimposing since sound is longitudinal and it doesn't look like you are placing 2 drivers facing agaisnt each other.
   
  But thanks for sharing your info, that's gonna save me from breaking apart my shells to get the wiring correct should I try the TWFK in the future


----------



## eafd

Lagging as in the CI being positioned farther away from the TWFK? I calculated the wavelength of a 15KHz sound wave to be 23mm, and the CI was about 3mm farther away from the TWFK the way I had it originally. This is all theoretical as the CI can't reproduce sounds this high. Lowering the frequency to CI-attainable levels (<6KHz) will only make the phasing less obvious than it is at 15KHz.
   
  I re-spliced the tubes to be of equal length, and it didn't make a difference. A source shift of 3mm will cause a sound lag of 8.7 microseconds; humans can't tell the difference between the two signal times in a period that short.


----------



## tranhieu

I think there's more to it than just being out of phase when we wire backward. I just tried swapping the 2 terminals on my DTEC and they sound a lot clearer, there's less upper bass and the mid is less forward.
   
  Oh btw, dtec + 1000ohm filter + 75 ohm resistor sounds pretty good, especially in terms of imaging, bass might be weak for some people but me finds it enough. Lowering filter's value might bring some more transparency but beware of the spikes.


----------



## eafd

Going to try to find some inner pictures of triple-driver IEMs that implement the TWFK.

The difference between the "right" and my current flipped TWFK is night and day. Before it sounded like there was just a CI driver, now the highs are definitely there but I feel the CI is still overpowering the TWFK somewhat (115dB sens vs. 95 sens), so I plan to add in a resistor when I can get a chance this weekend to buy some 1% ones. Perhaps I'm just used to the analytical sound of Etys.

Also, I just signed up for an account on Dreve Otoplastik. I want to see if they'll let me on their site, their UV cure acrylics are very interesting. They also have a resin that softens with heat ("VarioTherm, the new resin"), which I bet is what Westone is using for their "exclusive" flex-canals.


----------



## tranhieu

Let me know if you can get your hold of any of their product, I tried Dreve last time and their customer service ignored my email, or it went to their spam box, who knows?


----------



## eafd

Ugh. Very hard to find an audiologists' supplier that will allow individuals to sign on. They usually say something like "trade partners only," or "bona fide trade customers only."  There are actually more manufacturers of UV cure acrylics than I previously thought. I found at least three: Dreve, Adco, and Egger.
   
  I found a site that had prices for UV cure acrylics: http://www.ellsworth.com/display/productlisting.html?ProductLineID=12&SubcategoryID=40&Tab=products
   
  Crazy high prices.
   
  Edit: Found an adhesive that would work
   
  http://www.ellsworth.com/display/productdetail.html?productid=5674&Tab=products
   
  Small quantity, acceptable price, clear, and most importantly, cures under low intensity UV lights.


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote: 





eafd said:


> Going to try to find some inner pictures of triple-driver IEMs that implement the TWFK.
> The difference between the "right" and my current flipped TWFK is night and day. Before it sounded like there was just a CI driver, now the highs are definitely there but I feel the CI is still overpowering the TWFK somewhat (115dB sens vs. 95 sens), so I plan to add in a resistor when I can get a chance this weekend to buy some 1% ones. Perhaps I'm just used to the analytical sound of Etys.
> Also, I just signed up for an account on Dreve Otoplastik. I want to see if they'll let me on their site, their UV cure acrylics are very interesting. They also have a resin that softens with heat ("VarioTherm, the new resin"), which I bet is what Westone is using for their "exclusive" flex-canals.


 
  Don't know your cutting set but try to keep CI to work up to 500Hz. 200Hz could be enough for my taste. I believe you are looking for more punctual and less overpowering lows. Try switching CI to reverse wiring. Resistors will work, but it won't solve everything.
  
  Also, did you cut TWFK's mid driver from both sides(lows and highs)?


----------



## eafd

Not sure what you mean by the last question. Right now, I just have both drivers connected and unmodified, with both drivers wired as negative to ground. There is no electronic crossover, but there is a white filter on the TWFK and a gray filter on the CI.

I have tried reversing the CI, and the effect was the same (flipping a driver from my original hookup would either result in both of them being pos. to ground or both pos. to pos.)

I've never actually designed a crossover circuit before. I'll see if I can learn about basic crossover design really fast.

About the shells: Turns out there are many places that sell UV cured resins, which is perfectly fine for my needs. Found a place (solarez) that sells UV cure vinyl ester for surfboard repairs at 12$ per 4 ounce bottle, not bad.

http://www.deco-coat.com/uv.html Provides a UV curing urethane resin for doming, and as a plus they offer samples to people. I'm probably going to get a sample of this (1 pint standard) to test out.

Edit: this is their actual site http://www.epoxies.com/uv.htm

Also, Dreve informed me that they had a US-based warehouse, and they just emailed me telling me to contact them when I needed a purchase.


----------



## eafd

Placed a sample request for their 60-7170R epoxy: http://www.epoxies.com/tech/60-7170R.pdf

Great stuff:

Water clear
viscous (won't slide down side of mold easily)
Shore 70D hardness
Thick section curing
Cures slowly in the absence of UV light once exposed to UV
Isn't affected by oxygen (prevents need for secondary curing to get rid of surface tack)
Fast cure

And most importantly, has a low potential for skin sensitization.


----------



## tsn141

Hi,
  Are there anybody work on LP filter circuits except only resistor solution.


----------



## eafd

Yep, I've been studying RC LP filter circuits, and a 600Hz cutoff point would need a 270R resistor and a 1uF cap. It basically works as a voltage divider that begins dividing voltage (thus decreasing volume) after the frequency of the signal is above a certain point (depends on the reactance of the capacitor). At the moment, we can pretty much only have a first-order filter as the resistance of the crossover network increases dramatically through every order iteration. 

You can probably find RC filter calculators somewhere online. I've been using this tutorial to design them: http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/filter/filter_1.html

This type of application is perfect for first-orders, however, because the voltage drop of the 270R will be enough to balance the SPLs of the CI driver with the TWFK. TWFK does not need a crossover as it is a dual element design, but you can have a filter on it if you want.

Update on the UV cure epoxy: Sample shipped! (I requested 2 different epoxies). My parents have access to a .edu email and I used that in my sample order. I said that the application was for "potting sensitive biomedical electronics."


----------



## tsn141

Hi;
  Using second order xover may help you.2* 5 ohm resistors and 2*22uf caps have very good results in LTspice.I also found Pspice models of sonion drivers and some articles about modelling sound tube and dampers.However I have not enough time and efforts nowadays.
   
  PS:Sorry for my bad english.


----------



## tranhieu

2nd order is better but beware of phase shift and signal damping. that will negate the merits of using a 2nd order, and if you look around you will see most companies use 1st order xos


----------



## tsn141

Hi;
  From LTspice results HP filters has also phase shift.However It uses widely.
  IEM design guide ,taken from sonion, says:
  high order xovers are good but they need large amount of space.
  As seen on picture ue11 also has phase disalignement.


----------



## tranhieu

well I'm not sure how it works in IEM world but when it comes to speaker xo design the use of higher order xos needs careful calculations and tweaking.
  btw that graph only shows how the phase and frequency response varies when impedance is changed. what's your point there?


----------



## tsn141

I think high order XO need only more space.
  It is can be used at a woofer,cuts high freq,and wide range tweeter.
  due to resistors on woofer,it has low volume but only reinfroce bass response of tweeter.
   
  In most of iem design ,they built on woofer because woofer has very high volume.My experiments on westone ES5 validify  that theory.
  most of spectrum comes from bass driver.In my observations they use woofer as main driver.
  If tweeter used as main driver,It has more resolution and pace due to tweeters characteristics.
   
  For graph:
  It shows how phase and resistance change when frequency change.
  because frequency change on X axis then resistance and phase change can read from Y axis.


----------



## tranhieu

Yeah, that's the point. All IEMs are affected by the variation of the total impedance (not to mention theirs as well), not only the ue11. Plus normally we don't alter receivers' impedance individually but all of them as a whole (like in that graph) hence phase shifting doesn't matter much. On the other hand it does when capacitors are used in the circuit.
  Or were you trying to say that capacitors are not the only factor that introduces phase shifting?


----------



## tsn141

Another important factor on phase shifting is drivers inertial inductance for example sonion 2323 has 1.45*10^-3 H inductance.In LTspice model there are phase shifting both only driver and XO plus driver.


----------



## eafd

Where did you find this material on Sonion drivers? (especially the IEM design guide)


----------



## eafd

How about we just put a LP filter on the woofer and the equivalent HP filter that picks up at the same frequency as the LP filter on the tweeter. Then, we wire one of the drivers in backwards. That should mean that both drivers remain in phase throughout the frequency range (unless my understanding of phase is wrong).


----------



## tranhieu

The Pspice data are there at the top of each model's page.


----------



## eafd

Ok. So there's basically two ways I'm planning to do the crossover-

1. A single, first-order LP filter on just the CI. 1st order RC filters generally have acceptable phase until the frequencies get farther beyond the cut off, but by this point the CI's natural rolloff combined with the filter's rolloff will avoid this problem somewhat.This would take 2 components and be pretty easy to build.

2. Two second-order LP/HP filters on both the CI and the TWFK. The TWFK will be wired in backwards because the two filters will remain 180 degrees out of phase throughout the whole frequency range. This would take 8 components and be pretty hard to build considering the space I have.

Which one would be better in this case?


----------



## eafd

I just spent an hour and a half building the second-order crossovers, both low pass and high pass. The drivers aren't connected yet, but here's an idea of the size of them- all four are in this blurry picture, I need a macro lens for things this small:

http://grab.by/bpFB

Bad soldering, but the resistors were tiny. I used 270uF 1% SMD resistors and 1uF SMD Film capacitors.


----------



## tranhieu

Looks like p2p to me, what wire you used for wiring? I would recommend some litz. Notice that whatever wire you use the softer it is the easier it will be when you go stuffing the electronics components into their shells.
  In fact I didnt find soldering tough. Try using the smallest soldering tip you can get hold of, tint the wires and the 2 soldering pads of the caps/resistors first. That will make the whole job a lot easier.


----------



## eafd

The caps were easy, but the resistors were positively tiny for freehanding. Size 0603. I ended up spending most of my time setting up before I soldered, because I don't have any of those helping hands. I've been using the stock chisel hakko tip, so a smaller tip would really help with tiny stuff like this. 

I used magnet wire for the connections, but the ground wire that you see on the HP filters is just two strands of copper wire pulled out of a wire to make it easier to connect the resistors to (I can solder along the whole wire instead of where I burn the insulation off). 

In other news: the requested samples haven't arrived yet. Not sure if they plan on sending them or not.


----------



## eafd

Completed electronics for both ears. Bass is a little lacking, might add some more resistance to the TWFK to quieten it down. Works well so far, can't hear a discontinuity when playing across the corner frequency.


----------



## KarmaIncluded

Hi I'm new to this forum.
   
  I'm currently working on custom IEM with Sonion receivers and I found this thread when looking for shell making.
  It is really amazing what has come out of this. I'm will definately use some of the research that has been done here.
   
  I myself is an akustik engineer with with receiver as a full time job. Being a sound lover I'm very happy to be in this position. I might be able to help on consulting in the aspect of receivers.
   
  Currently I'm doing listening and measurements of diferent receivers to find a right combination for a 2-way IEM. I will update my process on this thread.


----------



## MuZo2

@KarmaIncluded
   
  Where did you buy Sonion drivers? while Knowles drivers are available on Mouser and other online stores, I did not find Sonion drivers. Which drivers have you considered for 2 way?


----------



## KarmaIncluded

I work at Sonion, so that means I can use whatever receivers are available on stock. 
   
  I'm not sure where to buy receivers as a private person. Are you in US or in Europe?
  Unfortunately I'm on vacation for 2 weeks. But I can ask our Application engineers where you can buy the receivers when I get back.
   
  BA receivers was first used in hearing aids due to the high efficiency compared to moving coil. Just recently are there more BA's being used for pro-audio. F.eks. Sony introduces a couple of BA universal earphones. Due to the dominating use of BA's in hearing aids means, that most attention has been to make efficient receivers and less focus on sound quality.
   
  I personally want to see a growing use of BA's in the pro-audio area, because this is means that more emphasis will be made on lower THD, more headroom, bandwidth and so on. Therefore it is also a pleasure finding that people are making the ir own IEM. I'm really greatful for that.
   
  The main problem for private persons is the price of receivers. The are more expensive due to the precision requirement of such small devices. Design is also not as straitforward. It is very time consuming.
   
  Anyway I'm currently doing listening test on 2400 and I must say it gives great detail. I have connected the output with a 10 mm tube with ID 1 mm. For damping I use a sonion green filter. I have also listened without the acoustic filter and found the sound a bit too harsh. Though they lack bass for my taste. My next step will be listening test on 3300 and making a 2-way speaker.
   
   
  PS: How do you insert the grey box referring to a previous comment?


----------



## tranhieu

Quote: 





karmaincluded said:


> I work at Sonion, so that means I can use whatever receivers are available on stock.
> 
> I'm not sure where to buy receivers as a private person. Are you in US or in Europe?
> Unfortunately I'm on vacation for 2 weeks. But I can ask our Application engineers where you can buy the receivers when I get back.
> ...


 

 I tested the 17a and the 31a as single driver iems (properly shelled) and I prefer the 31a over the 17a. While both of them roll of quite a lot the 31a has better mid, deeper bass, and if properly filtered coupling with some resistor (which I'm about to test during xmas, still waiting for my equipments) I have high expectations in them.
   
  There's a quote button at the bottom of each post to put that post into a grey box you want to refer to as a previous comment.


----------



## MuZo2

Its cool we have an expert from Sonion here.
  The price of BA is ok, but with Sonion the minimum quantity that can be ordered from Sonion dealer is 25 units, may be because they are shipped from asia.
  With Knowles single units can be bought but again the shipping on them cost more than BA, so we have to buy in bulk.


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote: 





karmaincluded said:


> I work at Sonion, so that means I can use whatever receivers are available on stock.
> 
> PS: How do you insert the grey box referring to a previous comment?


 
  I went like "are you f* kidding me!" That's great to have someone from Sonion is this particular thread. Welcome!
  Why did you choose 2400? Isn't 2300 the way to go?
  2300 is actually what is inside Phonak Audeo, it's the best wideband driver out there.
   
  Karma can you say something about new E50D driver?
   
  PS: you have to use "quote" button


----------



## MuZo2

Also I did not find 2400 in list from Sonion ,drivers specially designed for IEM
http://www.sonion.com/Products/Applications/In-Ear%20Earphones/Pro%20Audio%20Transducers.aspx
   
  2400 seems more of broadband, Sonion has been marketing 2600 as best sounding broadband. Would be interesting to find how 2400 compares with it.


----------



## piotrus-g

I'd say Sonion advertise 2300 as the best sounding. If you happen to speak to Eric, he's always been saying 2300 is better in highs and lows than 2600.
  
  Quote: 





muzo2 said:


> Also I did not find 2400 in list from Sonion ,drivers specially designed for IEM
> http://www.sonion.com/Products/Applications/In-Ear%20Earphones/Pro%20Audio%20Transducers.aspx
> 
> 2400 seems more of broadband, Sonion has been marketing 2600 as best sounding broadband. Would be interesting to find how 2400 compares with it.


----------



## KarmaIncluded

> Why did you choose 2400? Isn't 2300 the way to go?
> 2300 is actually what is inside Phonak Audeo, it's the best wideband driver out there.
> 
> Karma can you say something about new E50D driver?


 
   
  
 I haven't made a choice yet which drivers I'm going to use. I listen to the 2400 because I'm working with this receiver and it was available to me. I will definately also listen to 2300 when I get back.
  
 The 2300 has been on the market for quite some time and you also see a lot of variant in this family. You have different spout positions, vented/non-vented, internal modifications, etc. And it can get quite confusing when you don't understand the numbers (It's also confusing to me).
  
 When you read the datasheet of the receivers be careful to note which measurement coupling was used. E.g:
  
 _*The acoustic termination consist of: 11x1.9mmID + 4.5 x 1.4 mm ID into IEC 711 coupler.*_
  
 IEC 711 coupler is a standard measurement microphone which simulated the ear canal. 
 11x1.9mm ID + 4.5 x 1.4 mm ID is the tubing used (standard used by Sonion), which couples from the receiver spout to the IEC 711 microphone. We use this setup for all pro-audio related products. 
 *You cannot compare two measurements with different acoustic terminations!*
  
 Another thing to notice is whether the measurement is voltage-drive or current-drive. These are also non-comparable. Most amplifiers are voltage-driven. I'm actually not sure why some measurements are done with current-drive. I will try to get an answer.
  
 I noticed the 2300 is measured with current-drive. If I get some time I will provide you the response with voltage-drive.
  
 E50 is so new I don't know anything about it . I haven't work on it, but I know it is based on a new architecture. Thats it.


----------



## tsn141

...


----------



## zzffnn

excellent work, guys!


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote: 





karmaincluded said:


> I haven't made a choice yet which drivers I'm going to use. I listen to the 2400 because I'm working with this receiver and it was available to me. I will definately also listen to 2300 when I get back.
> 
> The 2300 has been on the market for quite some time and you also see a lot of variant in this family. You have different spout positions, vented/non-vented, internal modifications, etc. And it can get quite confusing when you don't understand the numbers (It's also confusing to me).
> 
> ...


 
  Thanks for your reply.
  I know about couplers and differences which they make as well as current vs voltage - the most noticable change in bass response.
   
  Something that has always got my attention is vented diaphragm (not vented body) driver. It's seems that it could be great highs performer. I'm afraid it would be a bit swishy


----------



## KarmaIncluded

Quote: 





piotrus-g said:


> Thanks for your reply.
> I know about couplers and differences which they make as well as current vs voltage - the most noticable change in bass response.
> 
> Something that has always got my attention is vented diaphragm (not vented body) driver. It's seems that it could be great highs performer. I'm afraid it would be a bit swishy


 

 You may find this document useful:
http://www.sonion.com/Products/Transducers/~/media/Files/Products/Application%20Notes/Transducers/Introduction%20of%20Receivers_AN_rev005.ashx
   
  On page 8 is described the responses for different modifications.
   
  Making holes in the diaphragm would correspond to drilling small holes in your loudspeaker box of a traditional loudspeaker. It would not effect the high frequencies because acoustic distance between the back to the front of the diaphragm is acoustically long (high frequencies have short wavelengths). But for low frequencies the distance is negligible and you have an "acoustic short" because the pressure at the front to back of the diaphragm is 180 degrees out of phase.
  The first peak of the response is related to the coupling of your microphone not your receiver itself, therefore you don't see any change in the first peak.
   
  PS: What means swishy?


----------



## MuZo2

What wire is used to connect the drivers.Soldering it. The wire should be thin enough and flexible to fit in casing. Can someone point me to right wire , a link if it can be bought online.


----------



## eafd

Apparently CIEM manufacturers use litz wire, but I suspect they just use fine twisted magnet wire to solder up the drivers.

You can either salvage some similar wire out of headphone cables (not all HP cables are the same, but I guarantee you apple's earbuds use fine stranded magnet wire), or you can buy some litz wire here: http://www.audiotronics.it/prod_7a.htm

I personally just used regular, solid-core 30 gauge magnet wire to solder together my drivers.


----------



## tranhieu

just search around ebay, no need to go to audiotronics for litz wire since it's dirt cheap.


----------



## alphaman

Not sure why I can't find the answer to these (seemingly simple and potentially popular [FAQ-wise]) queries quickly via the std Google or internal SE search, so I'll ask some stupid Qs for those not search-challenged  ...
   
  I want the raw, OEM-like cable/wire manuf (brand, and model if possible) for IEMs that use helical ("twisted pair" or dual-braided) type found on Westone or EarSonics. They both use black-colored.
   
  I think it's 26AWG stranded. I have some cheap-brand variety that I got from a local electronics shop, but am having trouble braiding it. I'd rather use what the IEM manufs use.
   
  Thx in advance for any input!


----------



## eafd

Mmmm. When I was looking into building my cable, I searched for 'twisted wire'. The only wire I found was heavier-gauge wire meant for electronic dog fences.

I ended up buying a handmade cable off of ebay. The way they kept the wire twisted is they took 2 strands of silver wire, then twisted them and slid very thin, clear heatshrink over the twisted wire. That kept the wire in place while keeping the twisted look.


----------



## alphaman

Quote: 





eafd said:


> Mmmm. When I was looking into building my cable, I searched for 'twisted wire'. The only wire I found was heavier-gauge wire meant for electronic dog fences.
> I ended up buying a handmade cable off of ebay. The way they kept the wire twisted is they took 2 strands of silver wire, then twisted them and slid very thin, clear heatshrink over the twisted wire. That kept the wire in place while keeping the twisted look.


 
  There's a big long an DETAILED post on H-F dedicated to custom IEM cables ... but they're all pre-built (after-market) jobs   I know several folks gut microphone cable (Canare, Mogami, etc.)  for their innards. I've got some industrial RTD wire with twisted-pair 26AWG stranded wire inside. But ripping apart any of these is a chore and a bit dangerous (e.g., must use/manipulate x-actos at weird angles -- you don't just risk cutting yourself but GUTting yourself ... LOL!).
  IAC, over on the Jaben.net forum, someone did a real nice job with some  Yuin's and SE530s ...
   
   

  The Yuin re-cable is Mogami 2893. Dunno what that SE530 job uses but it's a spitting image of the stock job of EarSonics (which is a very good cable tho' those IEMs are not so great). I have two Shure's whose cable have infamously disintegrated ... so I'm Jonsein'. 
  Oh ... soft and supple are BIG plus in my book ... and Shures are not just NONdurable, they FEEL unnatural ... like cheap polyester briefs and Tee's!


----------



## Angelopsaro

I found a shop and they managed to solder a new 3.5mm plug in my  soundmagic pl30.. The problem is that he solder them in opposite direction.. so left earphone plays the right channel..
  I know it doesnt sound completely right.. are the songs recorded to be played from each channel in a certain way or it doesnt sound right to me because of brain-burn effect?


----------



## KarmaIncluded

Hi Guys
   
  I just got back from vacation.
   
  The distributors of Sonion receivers can be found here:
   
   http://www.sonion.com/Products/How%20to%20Buy/Distributors.aspx
   
   
  I have ordered Mold-max30 for casting the earmolds and epoxy for making the earphones.
   
  My first attempt will be the use of 2 x 2354 as tweeters and 3300 as woofer. As crossover I will use a capacitor in series with the tweeters to dampen LF signal and resistor in series with the 3300. I will play around with different values, measure and listening test.
  As for dampening the HF from 3300 I will use sound dampers and small diameter tubes. Also sound dampers for the tweeters.
   
  I'm looking for connectors from the audio cables to the earphones. Does someone have any suggestions?


----------



## zzffnn

Hi KarmaIncluded,
  Thanks for the info. Would you please advise me:
  1) how much the Mod-max30 cost in USA?
  2) how do I buy it retail in USA? From the web site you posted, I only found a phone number and an email for USA.
  3) Do I need any other special equipment or reagent to work with the Mod-max30? If so, please recommend places to buy those in USA.
  Thanks again!
  
  Quote: 





karmaincluded said:


> Hi Guys
> 
> I just got back from vacation.
> 
> ...


----------



## i_djoel2000

why can't i find a single actual picture of the custom IEM you guys made? have not any of you succeeded?


----------



## zzffnn

^ Page 52 has some excellent photos showing a pair of finished custom IEMs.
  I have not read through all the 69 pages. But if you search "pic" or "photo" within this thread, you may be able to find more photos.


----------



## tranhieu

Quote: 





i_djoel2000 said:


> why can't i find a single actual picture of the custom IEM you guys made? have not any of you succeeded?


 


  probably embarassment


----------



## i_djoel2000

Quote: 





tranhieu said:


> probably embarassment


 


  why? i think marozie's work looks beautiful


  Quote: 





marozie said:


> Here's a pic of the bottom. I cut holes at the ends of the ear canals to run the acoustic tubing through, and then sealed it off with some 5 minute cure epoxy. It's great because it doesn't adhere permanently to either the tubing of the mold, so when I was done I basically just cracked it off. Note that there's a filter in one of the tubes that obviously isn't deep enough, I just inserted it for testing purposes.
> 
> 
> And here are some pics after the final touches. Basically, I smoothed out the roughest sections with an agressive bit, but was very careful not to take out too much material. Then I used one of those wire brush bits to smooth it out some, and the round any edges. Then I just sprayed them with maybe 6 coats of high gloss clear acrylic.
> ...


----------



## Redcarmoose

Amazing


----------



## KarmaIncluded

Quote: 





zzffnn said:


> Hi KarmaIncluded,
> Thanks for the info. Would you please advise me:
> 1) how much the Mod-max30 cost in USA?
> 2) how do I buy it retail in USA? From the web site you posted, I only found a phone number and an email for USA.
> ...


 


  I bought mold-max 30 for 26 € for 1 kg including reagent. I haven't received them yet.
  I think it should be easier to buy this stuff in US. Try to search Smooth-on Moldmax 30.
   
  You are right there is no US distributor on the link I sent you. I will ask my colleague.


----------



## zzffnn

^ Thanks. Or I may buy the left over moldmax from you, if you are willing to?


----------



## KarmaIncluded

I think its still cheaper to find a store in US. The shipping costs here are ridiculously high.
   
  Here is a list of distributors in USA:
http://www.smooth-on.com/pages.php?pID=104


----------



## zzffnn

^ Thank you very much. I have found it at around USD $26 for 2.2 lbs w/o shipping.
  So is this Mold Max 30 what the custom IEM companies use? Is there a particular reason why this one is chosen? Will the "*OOMOO® Silicones" *work as well? Please advise me.
   
  Also I guess I do not need 2.2 lbs of this, anyone within ConUS wants to split the cost with me?


----------



## KarmaIncluded

Quote: 





zzffnn said:


> ^ Thank you very much. I have found it at around USD $26 for 2.2 lbs w/o shipping.
> So is this Mold Max 30 what the custom IEM companies use? Is there a particular reason why this one is chosen? Will the "*OOMOO® Silicones" *work as well? Please advise me.
> 
> Also I guess I do not need 2.2 lbs of this, anyone within ConUS wants to split the cost with me?


 

 I found mold max 30 from a shop which sells casting and resins for artist and sculptures. They told me it will give me great detail and it does. Made the first negatives in silicone and positives in epoxy. If you can get some release on your silicone negatives, then do that. The ear impression will stick to the cast material. I did not use release and had to take the ear impression to pieces to get them out.
   
  I've grinded and sanded the epoxy pieces to a nice size and now going to make 2nd negative from them. The challenge is to get the mold to make a tight fit. I will put a layer of wax on the molds before casting them and see if it helps.
   
  At the same time I'm experimenting with receivers and crossover.
  My 2-way looks like this:
   
  2x2600 tweeter -  ?uF in series - 300 Ohm sound damper
  1x 2356 tweeter - 3.3uF in series - 1000 Ohm sound damper
  1x3300 woofer - 4700 Ohm sound damper (considering 3700)
   
  I will try to make some pictures


----------



## MuZo2

Quote: 





> The challenge is to get the mold to make a tight fit. I will put a layer of wax on the molds before casting them and see if it helps.


 


  This is standard practice. Did you check the youtube video from UE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWdwikZoXzA

 [size=small] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPpHBFsvmlg[/size]
 [size=small] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGN4GaVaMY8[/size]


----------



## KarmaIncluded

Thanks. Good tip.
   
  Think I will make another attempt. 
  New set of impressions, cut them, wax them and make negative.
   
  Did you get impressions with open or closed mouth?


----------



## kiteki

Velkommen Sonion.


----------



## tsn141

Quote: 





karmaincluded said:


> I found mold max 30 from a shop which sells casting and resins for artist and sculptures. They told me it will give me great detail and it does. Made the first negatives in silicone and positives in epoxy. If you can get some release on your silicone negatives, then do that. The ear impression will stick to the cast material. I did not use release and had to take the ear impression to pieces to get them out.
> 
> I've grinded and sanded the epoxy pieces to a nice size and now going to make 2nd negative from them. The challenge is to get the mold to make a tight fit. I will put a layer of wax on the molds before casting them and see if it helps.
> 
> ...


 
  4700 also 3700 too much for 3300 I recommend 2200 or less and use series configuration for woofer.(JH uses this conf.)
  1000 is good may be much but you can use a simply resistor instead of caps it will give more detail at every part of spectrum.
  or use 2356 with high cut off freq for extension.And 2*2600 with small resistance for keeping high energy.(it can cause distortion.)
 Pspice models very helpful but can it help for phase alignment.


----------



## geordienz

Quote: 





tsn141 said:


> 4700 also 3700 too much for 3300 I recommend 2200 or less and use series configuration for woofer.(JH uses this conf.)
> 1000 is good may be much but you can use a simply resistor instead of caps it will give more detail at every part of spectrum.
> or use 2356 with high cut off freq for extension.And 2*2600 with small resistance for keeping high energy.(it can cause distortion.)
> Pspice models very helpful but can it help for phase alignment.


 

 Is it possible for someone to finely detail a technical setup in plain English, or even better - with a diagram?


----------



## Revy

Bookmarked this thread, pretty interested in making one (and I'm willing to throw some cash into it, probably ~500). 
   
  I'll be reading through this thread when I have the time to and I'm gonna ask massive amounts of questions in due time..!


----------



## ijchan223

Quote: 





tsn141 said:


> 4700 also 3700 too much for 3300 I recommend 2200 or less and use series configuration for woofer.(JH uses this conf.)
> 1000 is good may be much but you can use a simply resistor instead of caps it will give more detail at every part of spectrum.
> or use 2356 with high cut off freq for extension.And 2*2600 with small resistance for keeping high energy.(it can cause distortion.)
> Pspice models very helpful but can it help for phase alignment.


 

 On Pspice where are you getting the components from ?  ( don't see them on the list) do i need to import it ?


----------



## tsn141

.


----------



## KarmaIncluded

I already made the first IEM's:

   
  2800: 0.1µF in series - coupled in antiphase - 680 Ohm damper - 2mm ID 25mm length
  2356: 47 Ohm resistor and 4.7µF in series - coupled in antiphase - 1000Ohm damper - 2mm ID 12mm length
  3300: 15 Ohm resistor in series - Normal coupling - 4700Ohm damper - 2mm ID 25mm length
   
  The fitting was now perfect because I used too big tubes and made the molds bigger than my ear canal. So they are not comfortable to wear. Nevertheless I was able to make listening test.
   
  The was a bit lack of bass for my taste. The mid low bass was good and tight but not very much very low bass. The mids were very good together with highs. They sound a bit like the 2356 alone and the 2800 gave a little extra in the highs, but could have been more. Overall the sound is on the warm side.
   
  I also did a measurement on them, and the low frequencies were very flat and not U shaped. I the next ones I will put a smaller electrical resistor and more sound damping to get a slope at the lows. For the highs I will try to get a little more output from 2800 to the overall sound. It might means damping the 2356.

  
  Quote: 





tsn141 said:


> 4700 also 3700 too much for 3300 I recommend 2200 or less and use series configuration for woofer.(JH uses this conf.)
> 1000 is good may be much but you can use a simply resistor instead of caps it will give more detail at every part of spectrum.
> or use 2356 with high cut off freq for extension.And 2*2600 with small resistance for keeping high energy.(it can cause distortion.)
> Pspice models very helpful but can it help for phase alignment.


 
  What do you mean 4700Ohm is too much? I found it to be too little. Besides the sound dampers only work for High frequencies. Put the 3300 in series? Why?


----------



## geordienz

Does anyone have any spare drivers, that they've been "forced" to buy, they'd be willing to sell?
   
  Also, can anyone produce a graphic diagram of their setup and post it up?


----------



## tsn141

Quote: 





karmaincluded said:


> I already made the first IEM's:
> 
> 
> 2800: 0.1µF in series - coupled in antiphase - 680 Ohm damper - 2mm ID 25mm length
> ...


 

 First of all,I congratulate you for your first diy iem.
  
  About dampers and other things:
 Dampers mainly contribute decaying of driver(as my knowladge).Damper position is important for this decaying frequency.Closer to driver,lower freqs more(faster) decayed,far to driver higher freqs faster decayed.
 Side effect of this system slower and worse transient response due to high damping.
 For seriescombination of 3300;
 Drivers has more resistance at their resonance freqs.Hence series combination self smoothed the freq response.
 you can get some bass from tweeters.In ES5 they get bass on tweeter.(I make some experiment by blocking bass and treble tubes.)
 If ı have a mistake please inform me.


----------



## Nixon

Spent the day reading though this, ridiculously interesting. Planning to start my own build soon but with a single driver to make sure it all actually works before I blow a pile of money on parts.
   
  What would the best driver be? After reading this thread I think I'll use the Knowles CI-22955 as suggested by Bilavideo  http://uk.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=CI-22955-000virtualkey66550000virtualkey721-CI-22955-000 . Managed to source all the parts except for the acoustic tubing, anyone know where I could find some? Preferably in the UK/Europe but worst case I could import it from the US.


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote: 





nixon said:


> Spent the day reading though this, ridiculously interesting. Planning to start my own build soon but with a single driver to make sure it all actually works before I blow a pile of money on parts.
> 
> What would the best driver be? After reading this thread I think I'll use the Knowles CI-22955 as suggested by Bilavideo  http://uk.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=CI-22955-000virtualkey66550000virtualkey721-CI-22955-000 . Managed to source all the parts except for the acoustic tubing, anyone know where I could find some? Preferably in the UK/Europe but worst case I could import it from the US.


 
  Audiotronics.it ?


----------



## MuZo2

Quote: 





> Preferably in the UK/Europe but worst case I could import it from the US.


 

http://colsanmicro.com for Sonion 
 Mouser Electronics for Knowles


----------



## Nixon

Thanks guys 
  
  Piotrus, is this the tubing you were referring to? http://www.audiotronics.it/prod_4a.htm
   
  Seems Colsan Micro do driver assemblies so you don't have to solder together the crossover circuitry. 
   

http://colsanmicro.com/components/driver-assemblies/


----------



## MuZo2

http://www.sensorcom.com/product.asp?PT_ID=307&P_ID=1071
http://www.sensorcom.com/product.asp?P_ID=1335&PT_ID=420


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote: 





nixon said:


> Thanks guys
> 
> Piotrus, is this the tubing you were referring to? http://www.audiotronics.it/prod_4a.htm
> 
> ...


 
  I believe that's not that tubing. I remeber they had something like sensorcom above. This one from sensorcome is good one to go.
   
  I know colsan does assemblies but I don't know their policy on it. The may not be willing to do one or two pairs, but who knows. Be the first to try!
 And AFAIK there's only two way option with double single driver and single-dual configuration


----------



## Nixon

Just sent them an email asking about it. Said that if they were willing to, I imagine quite a few Head-Fiers would probably buy sets. Hopefully that'll work


----------



## Nixon

Gotten as reply from them, 

 "Hi James
   
Thank you for this information.  I have attached a quote for the triple driver assembly.  As you will see on the quote we have a MOQ of 25pcs and orderliness to be in multiples of 25.  If you require just 1 or 2 sets of assemblies we would be able to do this as a one off but the price of <50 would apply.
   
We also supply IEM cables & sockets and dampers if required.
   
If you need any more information please don’t hesitate to contact me.
   
Best Regards
Sarah  
   
   
For an order of 25, they would charge £27.09 per assembly and as far as I can tell, they might be up for sending me one or two sets at that price too.


----------



## piotrus-g

Thanks for the info. Are you able to choose x-o points in this assembled units?


----------



## Nixon

What do you mean by x-o point. Still rather new to hi-fi stuff so I'm still learning the terminology.


----------



## tsn141

X-O points means crossover points.For my knowladge xo points effect phase of output frequency.xo points drivers and sound tubes have equal importance and all elements effected by other.


----------



## Nixon

Thanks TSN, makes sense now. I'll drop them an email to ask.


----------



## piotrus-g

Yup, even a half of milimeter makes huge difference here. Dampers phases and stuff.
  Basically if you want to change crossover point you should know what sound you want beforehand


----------



## tranhieu

Quote: 





piotrus-g said:


> Yup, even a half of milimeter makes huge difference here. Dampers phases and stuff.
> Basically if you want to change crossover point you should know what sound you want beforehand


 


  Have you tried shifting the damper half a mm and see if there's any difference at all? Theoretically there is, but calling it 'huge' is a bit exaggerating. In fact, the inner shape of your 2 ears isnot identical thus you cant arrange the drivers inside exactly the same way for both of the ear pieces, that would lead to one ear has its filters being nearer the canal than the other's, at least more than half a mm. Yet we have heard no complaint about that.
   
  Regarding cutting frequency I would strongly suggest trying out different values for both the capacitor and resistor being used in your network, how much your driver is dampened is also as important as choosing the right cutoff, and to me its role is more important than the acoustic filters. Having a model and an ear simulator would be best, yet those equipments cost grands.


----------



## tsn141

q


----------



## tranhieu

^are you referring to the pspice models available on sonion's site? I cannot open it using capturestudent.
   
  How much of the cap value did you change? Say, if C is doubled, to have the same cutoff f as before changing we need to cutdown Ra by 1/2, which will affect not only the peak of the curve, but also its slope. We are talking about at least 1-2 dB difference here. And since the slope of the peak is steeper than before the range of Ra available for adjusting is narrower.
   
  I agree that acoustic filter is important, but it will be the last thing I touch, since the higher the value of the filter the lower the amount of detail you will get, of course increasing acoustic filter value also improves imaging but there's better way to achieve that without sacrificing minute details of your music.


----------



## tsn141

q


----------



## tomscy2000

Found this chart on some Japanese blog, might come in handy:
   
http://blog-imgs-49.fc2.com/8/4/a/84audio/20120221222705f1b.jpg​ ​


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote: 





tomscy2000 said:


> Found this chart on some Japanese blog, might come in handy:
> 
> http://blog-imgs-49.fc2.com/8/4/a/84audio/20120221222705f1b.jpg​ ​


 


  AWESOME! I always wanted to do that. I could pull bigger list, though  especially with universal.


----------



## tsn141

Quote: 





tomscy2000 said:


> Found this chart on some Japanese blog, might come in handy:
> 
> http://blog-imgs-49.fc2.com/8/4/a/84audio/20120221222705f1b.jpg​ ​


 

 Good table,thanks.
 A little adding from me:1964 ears T uses 2323 for highs,and JH13 uses custom made 3300 series for lows, dtec for mids and dfk series for highs.


----------



## KarmaIncluded

Thanks for the list. Very insightful.
   
  You see that some of the drivers has unknown names, Like UE XXX, KGXXX. 
   
  Some earphone manufactures don't want competitor to know what driver they use. These you'll have to guess or open the earphones and inspect the driver. You will have to know the architecture to identify them.
   
   
  Anyway, I'm making my 2nd pair of IEM. The first ones was made from epoxy which is quite hard. I found it very difficult to make a perfect fit, which doesn't leak when I smile of lift eyebrows. I will now try to find some skin safe silicone rubber to make my 2nd pair and it will probably be much easier to get a tight fit.
   
  For this IEM I started making circuit with 1700 and 2300.
   
  With regard to finding the component and tubing I have found it the easiest way is just to experiment with it. But for that you'll need measurement equipment. I'll put some graph and pictures up as I go along.


----------



## tomscy2000

Hey guys, I'm going to defer to the expertise of all of you... Thanks in advance!
   
I've been fixated on getting a reshell of my DBA-02 with a driver upgrade. So, assuming that the DBA uses a TWFK30017 (pretty sure it does), if I get an upgrade to a Sonion 3300 for the woofer on a three-way crossover, are there going to be possible issues with the tuning and matching? Only one Chinese customs maker has agreed to do this setup for me, so I'm a bit concerned about possible negative repercussions of going with this setup.
   
A safer option is pairing the TWFK with a single CI22955, or dual CI, as the former is used in numerous triple driver setups and the latter is in the UM Mage --- what would be the possible pros and cons of either setup, and relative to a 3300?


----------



## piotrus-g

Well problem I could see is output matching as 3300 (007A) has like 120db@100Hz while normal TWFK (30017) is realtively less prominent at this range.
  But well resistor in series should do the job.
   
  I red somewhere that problem with DBA is getting out the driver form the shell. Maybe that's why no ones wants to do the reshell. Or maybe they are not based on TWFK but GQ that said drivers are fixed together and you pretty much can't do anything about it... Unless making it 2.5way
   
  I'd say though that dual CI would do much much better job that single 3300. 3800 would also outperform 3300. But 3800 adds more color and thickness to sound
   
  [Edit] Actually it would make sens if DBA and B2 were based on GQ. Bass response from them is stronger than from q-jays. Both TWFK and GQ use WBFK as tweeter however ED( in GQ being a woofer) is also good high performer which could be responsible for brighter and more "aggressive" sound of DBA


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote: 





karmaincluded said:


> Thanks for the list. Very insightful.
> 
> You see that some of the drivers has unknown names, Like UE XXX, KGXXX.


 
  UE tweeters are rebranded 2300 super.fi woofer is 2000 and triple.fi woofer is 3300. UE700 - TWFK, so called top firing armature (super.fi 5v2) is also 2300
  Klipsch uses 3100 and 3500 for wide-bands/tweeters and 3700 for woofers.


----------



## tomscy2000

Quote: 





piotrus-g said:


> Well problem I could see is output matching as 3300 (007A) has like 120db@100Hz while normal TWFK (30017) is realtively less prominent at this range.
> But well resistor in series should do the job.


 

 I'm in the process of asking whether they only source the 33A007 or also the 33A015, which apparently has in-built added resistance and impedance, basically doing what you're suggesting. Thanks for confirming my suspicions!
   
  Quote: 





piotrus-g said:


> I red somewhere that problem with DBA is getting out the driver form the shell. Maybe that's why no ones wants to do the reshell. Or maybe they are not based on TWFK but GQ that said drivers are fixed together and you pretty much can't do anything about it... Unless making it 2.5way


 

 I think that might've been my post saying that it was difficult to reshell, as it was Stephen Guo from UM that told me that a while ago (>8 months?). Well, now I know for a fact that people have done reshells of the DBA, so in fact it is possible. AFAIK, FlySweep did a straight up reshell with 1964Ears without any problems. I guess I can verify with him what the drivers are, specifically, but I doubt they're GQ, since the DBA Mk. II has been shrunken so much that I doubt the housings can fit anything but the TWFK.
   
  Quote: 





piotrus-g said:


> I'd say though that dual CI would do much much better job that single 3300. 3800 would also outperform 3300. But 3800 adds more color and thickness to sound


 

 Yeah, I guess this is the big debate, dual CI or single 3300. My rationale for picking the 3300 as my first priority was that it seems to be the most well extended at the low end, with good transient performance and texture, based off some posts I've read. I've never required a lot of bass body, so I probably wouldn't go with the 3800.


----------



## piotrus-g

I can only speak for TWFK single-CI blend done by UM. My IEMs are not the best bass (but one of the best I've heard) performers and I'd say triple.fi beats my customs in quantity and texture only by hair though, but only one CI provides definitely more headroom also bass control and speed is better. It's important not to over perform CI cutting it too high causes midbas bloat and mids muffle
   
  3300-TWFK would be an interesting combination though.
  maybe try DTEC-TWFK it should be close to W4, shouldn't it?


----------



## tomscy2000

Quote: 





piotrus-g said:


> 3300-TWFK would be an interesting combination though.
> *maybe try DTEC-TWFK* it should be close to W4, shouldn't it?


 

 That's what I have my Heir 4.A for! It's DTEC + TWFK.


----------



## MuZo2

Arent DTEC for mids & TWFK for high?


----------



## tomscy2000

Quote: 





muzo2 said:


> Arent DTEC for mids & TWFK for high?


 

 Not necessarily... they're just best at those frequencies. The JH16 uses two DTEC variants for its four bass drivers.


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote: 





muzo2 said:


> Arent DTEC for mids & TWFK for high?


 
  Quote: 





tomscy2000 said:


> Not necessarily...


 
  Exactly
  DTEC has almost 115dB bass response complied with TWFK you could have +10dB bass over 1kHz which would be even bassy to ear.
   
  BTW. you want to know what customs manufacturers use (caps, dampers, resistors)? go to mouser and look what "Customers Who Bought This Item Also Bought" that said - here are pins for cables! and sockets (GOLDEN PLATED!)
  http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=SW0E2EFviza1PJ3WAY4WaQ%3d%3d
  http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=mKNKSX85ZJfPN8cirKZn4w%3d%3d


----------



## MuZo2

Quote: 





piotrus-g said:


> BTW. you want to know what customs manufacturers use


 


  Not necessary , first of all these drivers are also used for hearing aids. secondly I dont think custom iem manufacturer buy from mouser.


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote: 





muzo2 said:


> Not necessary , first of all these drivers are also used for hearing aids. secondly I dont think custom iem manufacturer buy from mouser.


 

 some surely does. Knowles sells directly only high quantities and sometime even if you need more drivers in bulk they redirect you to mouser or digikey


----------



## zzffnn

@ KarmaIncluded,
Please keep us posted about your silicone CIEM. You may want to use harder silicone like those used by Sensaphonics, as soft ones may not be acoustically inert.
Same as you, I do not enjoy acrylic CIEM very much. Seal and comfort could be better with silicone. And hopefully, not at the expense of sound.


----------



## kiteki

Quote: 





tsn141 said:


> ​
> Good table,thanks.
> A little adding from me:1964 ears T uses 2323 for highs,and *JH13* uses custom made 3300 series for lows, dtec for mids and dfk series for highs.


 

 Do you know what the JH11 uses?


----------



## tomscy2000

Quote: 





kiteki said:


> Do you know what the JH11 uses?


 

 Some Japanese guy made a guess:
   
  Quote: 





> JH13にはピッコリーノケーブルが繋がれていました。取りあえず全機種試聴しました。基本はUEの音作りにかなり近いです。ただ、おお、これは！って機種がありました。それはJH11で、構成はUE11と同じですし、使用ドライバーもほぼ同じです。33A007、CI22955、2893かな？たぶん。UE11の弱点は低音がボワボワして締まりがないのですがJH11は非常に制動されたタイトかつボリュームのある低音で素晴らしいです。


 
  Google Translate: 





> JH13 is to Piccolino cable was connected. All models were auditioned anyway. Basic sound is pretty close to making the UE. But, oh, this is! What there was a model. It is JH11, then the configuration is the same as UE11, is almost the same driver used. I do 33A007, CI22955, 2893? Perhaps. JH11 is great in tight bass and volume that was braking very weakness of UE11, but I do not have to Bowabowa flabby bass.


----------



## kiteki

I liked the JH11 a lot, more than the JH13, if the UE11 is the same, that is interesting.
   
  The JH11 had more low-level detail, cross my heart and hope to die.


----------



## MuZo2

Any ideas what drivers UE super.fi 5 pro uses and if they are suitable for customs


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote: 





muzo2 said:


> Any ideas what drivers UE super.fi 5 pro uses and if they are suitable for customs


 

 rebranded Sonion 2000 and 2300 and yes they are fine for custosm


----------



## ardgedee

I've got a Super.fi 3, Super.fi 5 Pro, and Etymotics 6i, all with wires or shells damaged in some way. The drivers are intact.
   
  Does anybody have a good idea of what kind of custom the parts from these could be combined into?
   
  Kind of a weird question, I know.


----------



## KarmaIncluded

Some pictures:
   
  I have wound and braided some wire. For connectors I found these pins. They are soldered to the wires and the crimping flex(the tube which shrink when you heat it) or what you call it to isolate electrically (blue/black and red/black). Then a wider crimp flex is used to make a U shaped wire as an ear-hook (Red for right and Blue for left). The female connectors are to be cast with the IEM with the drivers and circuit. 
   

   
  I drilled two holes in the ear impression for the female connectors (with isolation/crimp flex). I want them to be in my negative mold. These ear impressions with connectors are to be dipped in wax to give an offset and then cast with silicon.
   

   
   
   
  I went by the shop which sells casting material and talked to the guy. I was looking for toxic free soft silicon. I ended us buying MoldMax Sorta-Clear 40. Which is a platinum based silicon with Shore A40 hardness. I was told that it is best to make the negative and the cast with the same silicon material as otherwise it could give problems, where the cast wont cure. Platinum based silicon and tin based silicon for example will give problems.
  I am now casting the negatives. I will return.


----------



## zzffnn

^ Please keep on the excellent work!


----------



## MuZo2

MoldMax Sorta-Clear 40, seems this is used to make skin molds(one you see in movies) , would be too soft I guess.


----------



## zzffnn

^ I remember a Sansaphonics guy said that they only use strengthened silicone as CIEM shell. Soft silicone is likely less desirable because it is not acoustically inert and not as durable.


----------



## KarmaIncluded

Well I don't care about durability at the moment, only that it seals and is comfortable. 
   
  What do you mean by acoustically inert?


----------



## zzffnn

I was under the impression that soft silicone may vibrate, absorp or reflect sound in such a way that it colors the sound. I could be wrong though, as this is just hear-say and I have no experience or data to back it up. Insertion may also be more difficult with soft silicone.

Project86 did a review of some custom silicone dual driver IEMs recently, which may give a general idea. I don't know what silicone is used in that commercial CIEM though.T


----------



## dosley01

I have silicone full ear molds for my IE8s and they definitely change the sound, but in this case I find it for the better.  The only issue is they have shrank over time or my ears got bigger but I'm approaching 40 so who knows.


----------



## KarmaIncluded

The silicon I use is harder than the ear impression material you get from audiologists. An those impression can easily be inserted into the ear. 
   
  Acoustically this material is hard and doesn't damp the sound. If the material has perforated holes, it would dampen frequencies which wavelengths are around the diameter of the holes. The wavelengths in the audio band are from 17mm - 17m, so I wouldn't worry about that. 
   
  Regarding vibrations, BA's are made to have minimal vibrations, as this can cause feedback in a hearing aid for instance. The vibrations can be significantly reduced when you use a dual receivers. If vibrations are large enough, it will exite the resonance frequency of the mold, which depends on the material properties and the physical shape. As the mold is made from soft silicon the mechanical vibrations from the receivers will be dampened by the silicon material and will only create minimal vibration at the earcanal. The vibrations from a receiver is virtually non-existing for the use of pro-audio and soft materials only help to dampen those vibrations.


----------



## MuZo2

Acoustic Tube Internal Diameter: 2.0MM Outside Diameter: 3.1MM. Does this fit on all drivers ?


----------



## kiteki

Quote:


ardgedee said:


> I've got a Super.fi 3, Super.fi 5 Pro, and Etymotics 6i, all with wires or shells damaged in some way. The drivers are intact.
> 
> Does anybody have a good idea of what kind of custom the parts from these could be combined into?


 

 I'll try to help.
   
  I think the ER-6i driver is from a company which has only released 1 BA, I suspect it's not used in any CIEM models so they'll have to devise a new one for you.
   
  The Super Fi's have been relabeled by UE such as "UELOWE, UELHIE", you can open them and check the shape of the drivers and try to identify it, or you can ask for a three-way custom IEM using UELOWE - UELHIE - ER-6i for lo-mid-hi, for instance..


----------



## tsn141

Quote: 





muzo2 said:


> Acoustic Tube Internal Diameter: 2.0MM Outside Diameter: 3.1MM. Does this fit on all drivers ?


 


  Most of application they use 2mm inner diameter but it can be chaged.
  For instance earsnics use less than 2mm inner dia,and UERM also uses different inner dia for lows and highs.This two bore have different dia.
 Also PFE has a very small tube before filter.(It can be 1mm dia).


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote: 





kiteki said:


> Quote:
> 
> I'll try to help.
> 
> ...


 
  ER6i uses BA made by StarMicronics the only problem with ER6i drivers is lack of spout. I dunno If any company would be able to attach driver to a tubbing in such case. However Starmicronics does sell the same driver with spout which I have BTW.


----------



## kiteki

Ah ok, so same issue as with the Sony XBA series then.  He could pioneer in trying to reshell the ER-6i into a CIEM, and if successful, pave the way for an XBA reshell with x company.


----------



## PakoBoy

after reading this thread i really want to try this. But because I dont know a lot about this stuff and i am pretty sure that i will mess it up the first few times i dont want to spend a lot $$.
   
  This is basically what i want to to if anyone have suggestions they are welcome.
   
  step 1 impressions:
  self impression kits like radians will cost me about €20 and making a impression at a store will cost me €25 so i will let it to by a pro in a store.
   
  step 2 mould:
  i am going to make a mould with gypsum
   
  Step 3 shell:
  to make the shell i will use shapelock
  http://shapelock.com/page2.html
   
  with the mould i am going to make another impression with shapelock. after is hard i can make is hollow (by heating it with a soldering iron) to place the drivers attached to a conector (dont really yet know how to do that):
   
  http://www.ebay.com/itm/270766021070?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649#ht_3034wt_802
   
  and then close the shell again by use more shapelock.
   
  Stap 4 cable:
  make a cable with on one site the connector:
   http://www.ebay.com/itm/290577497803?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649#ht_3152wt_802
   
  and on the other site the 3,5 mm jack. 
   
  Thats it !! 
   
  stuff that i still need is a good wire and a 3,5 mm jack so if anyone could give me a ebay link for this that would be great!!!

   
  and need a cheap driver i was looking at this:
   http://nl.mouser.com/ProductDetail/PUI-Audio/SMT-1427-S-3-R/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMuNFJjvCI6tQgUWCBGptnRrTpDHuSX5QY8%3d
   
  but they ask €20 for shipping so need some place else to buy

   
   
  i still need to know how to connect a driver to the connector and how to connect the jack to the cable.


----------



## PakoBoy

i found a drive somewhere else and i dont have to wire it myself but is it any good?. the specifications are: 
   
  http://www.inktknaller.nl/visaton-visaton-16mm-miniatuur-luidspreker-p-13290.html
   
Rated/Maximum Power 0,5 W/1 W
Impedance 50 ?
Frequency response (?10 dB) 700–20000 Hz
Mean sound pressure level 71 dB (1 W/1 m)
Resonance frequency 1005 Hz
Voice coil diameter 8 mm
Cutout diameter 13 mm
Net weight 0,002 kg
Length of cable 24 mm
   
   
  btw you guys in america are so lucky you can get almost everything, i have to pay more for the shipping that the product self :'(


----------



## MuZo2

If you want something very cheap without caring for  accoustics or sound, why make a custom ?
  If you really want to make some customs, You can also just make some custom tips for your iem.


----------



## PakoBoy

Its more that i want to try to make a custom with cheap stuff before i am going to try it with expensive stuff. It will be a learning experience. If this goes well than i can try to use a more expensive BA driver. 
   
  But if someone know a good driver thats not to expensive i am willing to use that one. i read somewhere in this thread that the sonion 2015 is about €8, thats reasonable but cant find it.


----------



## MuZo2

Sonion will only sell minimum of 25 drivers each.


----------



## tranhieu

Quote: 





pakoboy said:


> Its more that i want to try to make a custom with cheap stuff before i am going to try it with expensive stuff. It will be a learning experience. If this goes well than i can try to use a more expensive BA driver.
> 
> But if someone know a good driver thats not to expensive i am willing to use that one. i read somewhere in this thread that the sonion 2015 is about €8, thats reasonable but cant find it.


 


  for Sonion's drivers you have to purchase in a quantity of 25 for each model.
  I don't want to put you off but experiments alone can cost hundreds and there's no guarantee you might come up with something listen-able. There're not many documents regarding the technique and equipments around so you have to go with trial&error, something I wouldn't recommend if you goal is to save some dollars.


----------



## kiteki

How many companies make BA driver's...


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote: 





kiteki said:


> How many companies make BA driver's...


 

 There're 4 I know of


----------



## kiteki

There must be a 5th somehwere!


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote: 





kiteki said:


> There must be a 5th somehwere!


 

 Let me know when you find it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  EDIT the fifth would be japan Yashima - they produce only moving coil armatures


----------



## MuZo2

Can you name all, Knowles, Sonion seem to be two biggest and preferred once.


----------



## kiteki

Knowles, Sonion, Star Micronics, Sony, Japan Yashima, Final Audio(?)


----------



## piotrus-g

KA, Sonion, Starmicronics, Yashima and there was company named tibet or somthing similar


----------



## kiteki

*post #1111* of 1111
   
  Nice!
   
  Err Sony definitely make their own BA there's a video somewhere.
   

 Edit:


----------



## Sil3nce

piotrus-g said:


> KA, Sonion, Starmicronics, Yashima and there was company named tibet or somthing similar




Quads. Lucky...


----------



## piotrus-g

the company is named tibbetts intricon it's actually US based company


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote: 





sil3nce said:


> Quads. Lucky...


 

 I feel like we were on 4chan... show me some Vegeta


----------



## tranhieu

Knowles alone is more than enough for driver sourcing. Sonion has some good ones too, but I prefer Knowles', especially for high frequencies.


----------



## piotrus-g

I haven't heard all Sonions and all knolwes but I'd say I prefere Sonion for highs. 2300 diver is simply exceptional in this department. Propoerly tuned beats TWFK hands down.


----------



## PakoBoy

Quote: 





tranhieu said:


> for Sonion's drivers you have to purchase in a quantity of 25 for each model.
> I don't want to put you off but experiments alone can cost hundreds and there's no guarantee you might come up with something listen-able. There're not many documents regarding the technique and equipments around so you have to go with trial&error, something I wouldn't recommend if *you goal is to save some dollars*.


 





 i never said that my goal is to save money and i know it trial&error thats why i dont want to spend a lot of money the first time.


----------



## Sil3nce

Quote: 





piotrus-g said:


> I feel like we were on 4chan... show me some Vegeta


 

 Ti** or gtfo


----------



## tranhieu

Quote: 





piotrus-g said:


> I haven't heard all Sonions and all knolwes but I'd say I prefere Sonion for highs. 2300 diver is simply exceptional in this department. Propoerly tuned beats TWFK hands down.


 

 Oh well perhaps I didn't get the xo right for the 2300, I just found the twfk and wbfk are easier to work with compared to the 2300. Didn't spend much time with Sonions' anyways.
  But one thing I don't like about Knowles is that they seem to have limited technical support for customers. I asked them for the impedance graph and some L values but they just said they never measured such things, doesn't matter much though but they let me down a bit that time.
  
  Quote: 





pakoboy said:


> i never said that my goal is to save money and i know it trial&error thats why i dont want to spend a lot of money the first time.


 

 Sorry if I misunderstood your earlier posts. Thought you were trying to save some money by building a set of custom yourself.


----------



## MuZo2

Knowles WBFK has extended higher frequency response than 2300 but is 3 times expensive. KA is too big company to provide support for DIY guys. Sonion resellers are better at providing all the support which they can.


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote: 





muzo2 said:


> Knowles WBFK has extended higher frequency response than 2300


 
  Oh... I don't think so.
  WBFK is CIC driver while 2300 is ITE/BTE driver. You can't simply compare graphs because measuring conditions were different.
  I heard both drivers - TWFK in many applications like DBA, B2, Westone or even my Uniqe Melodys and highs are either sibiliant and metallic sounding or not very prominent. I must admit TWFK driver is very resolving and detailful, though. However 2300 in Audeo or TF10 is more prominent at the very top. I've heard some comments that TF10 was sibiliant but I couldn't have heard it list time listend to them


----------



## KarmaIncluded

Quote: 





tranhieu said:


> I asked them for the impedance graph and some L values but they just said they never measured such things, doesn't matter much though but they let me down a bit that time.


 

 Impedance is crucial in BA design. If they say they don't have these information it is simply not true. I'm not trying to impose any favor of companies, but I must agree with MuZo2, that KA is too big to handle hoppists. This is also the impression we get from Sonion customers. 
   

  
  Quote: 





piotrus-g said:


> Oh... I don't think so.
> WBFK is CIC driver while 2300 is ITE/BTE driver. You can't simply compare graphs because measuring conditions were different.


 
   
  pioturs-g is right. The measurement conditions are crucial when comparing response curves. Please check which setup is used in the datasheets.
   
   
  With regards to BA producers, Sony just entered this field with their XBA series. It is their first and own made BA they use and not available in the market. KA and Sonion are they only wide-range providers of BA to the industy.


----------



## tsn141

Star micranics and tibbets are in same group.

 Another thing is that I do not believe that sony makes armatures.It is not feasible,since there is good drivers in good prices.


----------



## tranhieu

Quote: 





karmaincluded said:


> Impedance is crucial in BA design. If they say they don't have these information it is simply not true. I'm not trying to impose any favor of companies, but I must agree with MuZo2, that KA is too big to handle hoppists. This is also the impression we get from Sonion customers.


 

  I was also surprised when I got told they didn't have the measuring. Perhaps they just want to keep it confidential for their potential customers.
  However the 25 pieces/order policy is not very hobbyist-friendly either


----------



## tsn141

Star micranics and tibbets are in same group.

 Another thing is that I do not believe that sony makes armatures.It is not feasible,since there is good drivers in good prices.


----------



## kiteki

Quote: 





tsn141 said:


> Star micranics and tibbets are in same group.
> 
> Another thing is that I do not believe that sony makes armatures.It is not feasible,since there is good drivers in good prices.


 
   
  Did you look at the video?
   
  Haha.


----------



## tsn141

Quote: 





kiteki said:


> Did you look at the video?
> 
> Haha.


 


  yes I look video,
  Still I do not believe.It is not feasible for sony.Because developing balanced armature technology is really difficult and expensive.for example knowles developed their own tech more than 30 years.Can sony do this?
 Another thing is ,It is not a good idea for this  small market.because balanced armature not have big market like other cheap products.


----------



## kiteki

Sony has had lots of ideas with heavy loss, like the first portable CD player or the PS3, they just lost $millions for years.
   
   
  Sony has never used a driver from a different company in any product, and never copied any product, they would never use a driver from anyone else, so they had to reinvent it.


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote: 





tsn141 said:


> yes I look video,
> Still I do not believe.It is not feasible for sony.Because developing balanced armature technology is really difficult and expensive.for example knowles developed their own tech more than 30 years.Can sony do this?
> Another thing is ,It is not a good idea for this  small market.because balanced armature not have big market like other cheap products.


 
  I also thought so but the video cleared my doubts.


----------



## tsn141

Quote: 





kiteki said:


> Sony has had lots of ideas with heavy loss, like the first portable CD player or the PS3, they just lost $millions for years.
> 
> 
> Sony has never used a driver from a different company in any product, and never copied any product, they would never use a driver from anyone else, so they had to reinvent it.


 

 There is no need to discover america again.


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote: 





tsn141 said:


> There is no need to discover america again.


 
  For some it's a matter of honor


----------



## piotrus-g

Did anyone notice UM scratched off TWFK numbering? I must say that's pretty odd.

  http://www.head-fi.org/t/566965/review-unique-melody-merlin-hybrid-dynamic-balanced-armature-custom-iem/390#post_8191288


----------



## kiteki

Oh, they actually scratched it off with a knife?
   
  Looks severe.


----------



## tranhieu

^ yeah saw that pic few days ago. It's not a very wise thing to do, looks like they used some high speed rotatory tool to scrape it off. I wouldn't be surprised if that driver fails in few months time.


----------



## piotrus-g

tranhieu said:


> ^ yeah saw that pic few days ago. It's not a very wise thing to do, looks like they used some high speed rotatory tool to scrape it off. I wouldn't be surprised if that driver fails in few months time.



it was posted 2 days ago.
that's my point, I mean drives should be handle with special care. too much force when holding with clippers can cause driver failure not to mention scratching the surface.


----------



## tranhieu

Quote: 





piotrus-g said:


> it was posted 2 days ago.
> that's my point, I mean drives should be handle with special care. too much force when holding with clippers can cause driver failure not to mention scratching the surface.


 

 well let's wait and see if anything happens to those custom within few months. But I don't think UM did this before, first time I've seen a scratched driver from UM.


----------



## kiteki

'Unique' Melody
   
  Not... TWFK Melody.


----------



## tsn141

Quote: 





kiteki said:


> 'Unique' Melody
> 
> Not... TWFK Melody.


 

 most probably "angry tecnicians"


----------



## piotrus-g

Looking for good acryl?
  Go to Henkel page. There're a UV curable glues called Loctite some has ISO 10993 certificate which means they are bio-grade. I believe that's the material some of the big brand uses.
   
  If you need to cure in UV for cheap get yourself a UV light for finger nails 
   
  [Edit] Than again it was already discused at page 55.


----------



## PakoBoy

would it be possible to use acrylic liquid and acrylic powder to make a nice transparant shell?
   
  liquid:
  http://www.ebay.com/itm/Professional-Nail-Art-System-Acrylic-Powder-Liquid-75ML-/130651699139?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e6b72b7c3#ht_3865wt_841
   
  powder:
  http://www.ebay.com/itm/Clear-Acrylic-Powder-Nail-Art-For-Acrylic-Liquid-Brush-Systems-NJ016Z-/330695233512?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4cfef8cfe8#ht_4659wt_958


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote: 





pakoboy said:


> would it be possible to use acrylic liquid and acrylic powder to make a nice transparant shell?
> 
> liquid:
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Professional-Nail-Art-System-Acrylic-Powder-Liquid-75ML-/130651699139?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e6b72b7c3#ht_3865wt_841
> ...


 
  Probably yes, but be sure that you buy mediacl grade products. Last thing you want is rash in your ears.


----------



## tomscy2000

*spkrs01* did something really cool a while back; he turned a regular W4 into a W4R, but with a Shure-type connector!
   
  Inside, we also get to see the innards of the W4 --- looks like a TWFK+DTEC to me, confirming all our suspicions! However, they do look like proprietary serial numbers to me (I'm assuming special port position for better universal sound tube placement?)
   
  Quote: 





spkrs01 said:


> Short Photo Essay:-
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Niyologist

I'm thinking of making my own Hi-End IEMs. Do you guys want a Hybrid?


----------



## e19650826

Quote: 





niyologist said:


> I'm thinking of making my own Hi-End IEMs. Do you guys want a Hybrid?


 

 that would be interesting, but as far as I know, dynamic drivers need certain amout of air. too much or too little air can affect the sound quality. maybe something more precision and many trials are needed to get them just right...


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote: 





tomscy2000 said:


> *spkrs01* did something really cool a while back; he turned a regular W4 into a W4R, but with a Shure-type connector!
> 
> Inside, we also get to see the innards of the W4 --- looks like a TWFK+DTEC to me, confirming all our suspicions! However, they do look like proprietary serial numbers to me (I'm assuming special port position for better universal sound tube placement?)


 

 Yeah, It's def DTEC-TWFK and I knew it from the start 
  Although it looks like proprietary and I believe it's not only for port placement.


----------



## cyph3r

Just joined this thread. One question: Anyone tried already to generate IEM shells using a 3D printer?


----------



## dosley01

I'm thinking 3D Printer + 3D Scanner plus Laser Cutter and you are on your way!  I'm trying to find a way to justify buying a MakerBot + FabScan + Lasersaur, and I thought Head-Fi was getting expensive.


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote: 





cyph3r said:


> Just joined this thread. One question: Anyone tried already to generate IEM shells using a 3D printer?


 
  Yeah... You know how much does 3D impression scaner and 3D acrylic printer cost? It's not DIY anymore.
  Though, truth is that there's a 3D scaner/printer with software which allows you to design your custom IEM, it has a database of commonly used components


----------



## tranhieu

Quote: 





piotrus-g said:


> Yeah... You know how much does 3D impression scaner and 3D acrylic printer cost? It's not DIY anymore.


 


  you know how much an end-all build of the T2 costs?


----------



## piotrus-g

pardon my ignorance but what's T2?


----------



## MuZo2

Quote: 





cyph3r said:


> Just joined this thread. One question: Anyone tried already to generate IEM shells using a 3D printer?


 


  Though still most of companies use old mold technique using skilled persons , there are some new companies who are using Stereolithografie. But this machines cost a lot you cannot justify it if you are not doing large volumes.There are two cad softwares 3shape and Secretears.


----------



## tranhieu

Quote: 





piotrus-g said:


> pardon my ignorance but what's T2?


 


  an electrostatic amplifier. my friend is building one for himself, and he's thrown in more than 6k so far but it's still far from complete yet.
  but it's purely a diy project no matter how you look at it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  regarding 3d printer, there're limitations that prevent big firms from using it instead of the traditional method, money is not the issue here.


----------



## e19650826

almost certain it is the cost that is keeping them away. It is not only the money to purchase the machine, but also the money to run it, to maintain it, and to have the personel who is familiar with such machine. Also, if any of them is bombarded with orders, one set of machine will not do the trick, but to maintain such high cost and still make a profit they need to be bombarded with orders. A delima that a million-dollar-revenue company would definately try to avoid.


----------



## piotrus-g

Hey, guys I've done lots of reasearch today and found many "german uv acrylic material" if that sounds familiar  Actually I've found everything dedictated to pro-market. I'm now 100% sure that none of IEM company use Loctite as shell builder.
   
   
  Also if you're planning on builiding a shell use PNP technique (positive negative positive) that way you can create empty shell, although it costs more and takes more time
   
  I'll post more when I find more time.


----------



## tomscy2000

Hey guys, are there any inherent differences between the acoustic dampers from Knowles and Sonion?
   
  The Sonion website seems much more simplistic about what they offer: http://www.sonion.com/Products/Modules/Sonion%20Sound%20Dampers.aspx
  The Knowles website is more detailed and specific, but more confusing: http://www.knowles.com/search/product.htm?x_sub_cat_id=15


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote: 





tomscy2000 said:


> Hey guys, are there any inherent differences between the acoustic dampers from Knowles and Sonion?
> 
> The Sonion website seems much more simplistic about what they offer: http://www.sonion.com/Products/Modules/Sonion%20Sound%20Dampers.aspx
> The Knowles website is more detailed and specific, but more confusing: http://www.knowles.com/search/product.htm?x_sub_cat_id=15


 
  Yeah, Knowles has metal housing lol 
  Jokes aside, Knowles seems to offer wider variety of dampers diameter. Which allows you to freely change tubing diameter. I believe you're familiar with tube size/legth effects on sound so I won't elaborate on it.
  Probably Sonion would also be able to supply different diamteres as a part of proprietary design.
  Though I see that Knowless smaller diameter dampers are some kind of screen instaed of plug.
   
  BTW. Today I've also came across blue and red Phonak-like filters available from one of Polish distributors. I wonder if I could get some and see the effect on my PFE  They've also got THE SAME phonak's changing tool. I'll give it some more attention
   
  And what just stricked me It'd make perfect sense! Audeo grey - 330 Ohm, black (actual white!) - 680 and Green - 1500 Ohm - these are standard colors for every comapny. Red would be 2200 and blue is complitely out of line!
  Can you imagine PFE with 2200 ohm damper? It would turn Audeo to bass-head IEM


----------



## tranhieu

Sonion's are easier to work with imo, they fit the 1.5mm ID tube better than Knowles's (actually I've never used 1.5mm tube for Knowles filter before, they are too damn thick and slippery at the same time). However Sonion's are more fragile since their housing is made of plastic so you might want to take that into account before buying large quantities of them. Sonion also offers some mounting tool but the price is not worth it imo.
   
  Personally I prefer to use Knowles's for mid/high drivers, while Sonion's prove to be a better choice for lows due to their size, but that might change depending on how skillful and patient you are lol.


----------



## cyph3r

Quote: 





dosley01 said:


> I'm thinking 3D Printer + 3D Scanner plus Laser Cutter and you are on your way!  I'm trying to find a way to justify buying a MakerBot + FabScan + Lasersaur, and I thought Head-Fi was getting expensive.


 


 you have a point there dosley. I have no idea how much the scanners cost (do you?), which may be essential to get an image of the ear. However, some custom IEMs I saw are also rather expensive. Do you have experience with a MakerBot, especially with its resolution? They seem to be comparably cheap.


----------



## dosley01

The DIY scanner looks pretty cheap, less than $1000 to build but I have no idea what kind of job it would do.
   
  I just saw an episode on Cool Tools that talks about TechShop which is like a gym membership for the DIY crowd with access to all the tools, computers, training etc to build just about anything. 
   
  Check it out:  http://www.techshop.ws


----------



## e19650826

$99 a month for membership... and have access to all the machines... including CNC 3D sanner, 3D printer, and laser cutter! quiet tempting... but it's not anywhere close to where I live..


----------



## tomscy2000

I think it'd be worth it for people who do need to prototype --- on occasion, but not all the time. $99/mo. is not that bad an investment. Just cancel your cable TV! (Not that I would know, I've never had cable)


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *ardgedee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> *HA 4.A*
> Left front pin: 0.760mm
> ...


 
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/584763/heir-audio-the-appreciation-thread/390#post_8234396
   
  Maybe someone could make use out of it. Heir uses Westone type socket


----------



## cyph3r

There is so much knowledge in this section, however, in an unorganized form.
   
  Did someone create an instructable / wiki / webpage / other document for clear instructions how to build an IEM?


----------



## MuZo2




----------



## tranhieu

Quote: 





muzo2 said:


>


 

 would be better if you left the side where the socket's located flat. unless you are drilling holes for the cable later.


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote: 





muzo2 said:


>


 
  Nice, what did you use to make it?
  As promised I post companies that make acrylics and silicones for shell production
  1. Dreve
  2. Egger
  3. Detax
   
  Egger is 100% bubble free material. I don't know for others. But production process of Egger seems quite complicated.
  I found only one company that could sell me these materials in low quantiteis. All materials for about 10acrylic shells would cost total of 250-300 Euro in reatil. I'm trying to contact other companies to find something cheaper.
  Audiotronics is Dreve distributor but they sell it only in Italy


----------



## MuZo2

They are virtual, just waiting to get hold of some drivers, initially out of some universals.


----------



## tranhieu

Quote: 





piotrus-g said:


> Nice, what did you use to make it?
> As promised I post companies that make acrylics and silicones for shell production
> 1. Dreve
> 2. Egger
> ...


 
  Any of them can produce 100% bubble free shells if you know how to process stages with extreme care. Egger and Dreve seem to be the most popular choices out there, so yeah any of the 3 above work just as fine.


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote: 





muzo2 said:


> They are virtual, just waiting to get hold of some drivers, initially out of some universals.


 
  I know I meant with which software


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote: 





tranhieu said:


> Any of them can produce 100% bubble free shells if you know how to process stages with extreme care. Egger and Dreve seem to be the most popular choices out there, so yeah any of the 3 above work just as fine.


 
  I'll be getting dreve probably and maybe egger to comparision.
  Will see, which one is easier to work.
  Could you elaborate on "extreme care"? I'd appreciate your insight on working with these materials either here or via PM.


----------



## tomscy2000

Does anyone know what things to look out for when doing something like negative etching or engraving with UV acrylic? I'm thinking about getting the face of one of my IEMs engraved.


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote: 





tomscy2000 said:


> Does anyone know what things to look out for when doing something like negative etching or engraving with UV acrylic? I'm thinking about getting the face of one of my IEMs engraved.


 
  laser lol
   
  Maybe you could give it to company that does pcv engravings?


----------



## tomscy2000

Quote: 





piotrus-g said:


> laser lol
> 
> Maybe you could give it to company that does pcv engravings?


 

 I guess I'll ask the companies themselves. The thing I'm concerned with most is finding a company that can do engravings on irregular surfaces like those of IEM shells... some companies can only do tubular surfaces, or flat surfaces...


----------



## Mython

Have you considered conventional engraving, which you could then fill-in with paint afterwards?


----------



## WooXIEE DJ

Not sure about IEM shells but i "engraved" my name on a zippo lighter by sanding a part of it till its rough then painting over it, the paint that gets on the smooth areas can easily be removed.


----------



## WooXIEE DJ

I think someone over at the Aurisonics thread painted their shells. Might want to take a look.


----------



## Mython

I suppose there's also the possibility of acid-etching (this is common for security-etching consumer electronics). 

Then you'd in-fill the voids with paint.

I don't know how accurately the acid would accomplish the etching, though, so you'd need to do a test-run first.


----------



## Mython

You could also try having a piece of metal plate engraved professionally, then make a negative mould of it, and use this negative to impress upon your IEM acrylic during the curing process.


----------



## Mython

... Or you could use a plastic or metal plate that has been professionally-engraved, and simply fit this plate onto your CIEM


----------



## tomscy2000

Quote: 





mython said:


> Have you considered conventional engraving, which you could then fill-in with paint afterwards?


 
  Quote: 





mython said:


> You could also try having a piece of metal plate engraved professionally, then make a negative mould of it, and use this negative to impress upon your IEM acrylic during the curing process.


 
  Quote: 





mython said:


> ... Or you could use a plastic or metal plate that has been professionally-engraved, and simply fit this plate onto your CIEM


 

 Well, I'm not making my own IEM, but the faceplate is going to be opaque black, and I requested it to be as smooth and flat as possible to give as suitable as possible an engraving surface. I want to engrave my (current) avatar in, as that's the name I'm calling this model. It's basically my own selection of drivers, tuning, and shell preferences.


----------



## piotrus-g

3way 2 units 4 driver. I just knew that your avatar has to do something with IEMs


----------



## MuZo2

More impressions


----------



## tomscy2000

Quote: 





piotrus-g said:


> 3way 2 units 4 driver. I just knew that your avatar has to do something with IEMs


 

 haha... you know me! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
  Quote: 





muzo2 said:


> More impressions


 

 What software are you rendering these pictures in?


----------



## Boombastic88

Hey guys! This is a really interesting thread. Sadly, I didn't find it until there were over 70 pages of comments. Can anybody tell me if there was a page telling about the finished product? Also, is it necessary to use a crossover as long as you use appropriate drivers together and filter them properly?


----------



## tomscy2000

Quote: 





boombastic88 said:


> Hey guys! This is a really interesting thread. Sadly, I didn't find it until there were over 70 pages of comments. Can anybody tell me if there was a page telling about the finished product? Also, is it necessary to use a crossover as long as you use appropriate drivers together and filter them properly?


 

 No, it's not necessary to use a crossover (see the Sony XBA series), but a crossover is arguably the safer choice, as filtering drivers that specifically using just acoustic filters is tough to do.


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote: 





tomscy2000 said:


> haha... you know me!


 
  so in the end you've decided 3300+TWFK?
  Looking forward to your impressions


----------



## MuZo2

Any source for sound tubes for twfk
http://www.knowles.com/search/prods_pdf/TWFK-30017-000.pdf
 spout od is 1.4


----------



## cyph3r

I currently looking into buying BA drivers from KA for an DIY IEM project and came across their GQ and GP speakers (latter one is not documented on their homepage but in their PDF design guide) both fitted with tiny crossover circuits.
   
   
  They look like an interesting package for an easy setup. Anyone tried these already alone / in combination with other drivers?


----------



## piotrus-g

It seems no one have tried it yet. But you can find GQ in ADDIEM, W2 or SA7 - to give you a glimpse of how it can sound


----------



## cyph3r

Thanks Piotrus-g. I unfortunately dont have either of those, but will give it a try.
   
  I have a hard time sourcing those here in Europe (expecially shipping prices). Any other tips expect Mouser / digikey etc where I can source KA BA speakers?
   
  I reviewed extensively KA's soldering advice (having read Bilavideos experiences with soldeing BA speakers). Seems to be rather important to stick to that advice (e.g. using a heat sink) since these tiny speakers are easily damaged during soldering.
  In this regards, the GP / GQ series offer a great advantage since the cross over ciruit will not transmit the heat to the case, so I anticipate no heat sink needed.


----------



## tranhieu

Quote: 





cyph3r said:


> Thanks Piotrus-g. I unfortunately dont have either of those, but will give it a try.
> 
> I have a hard time sourcing those here in Europe (expecially shipping prices). Any other tips expect Mouser / digikey etc where I can source KA BA speakers?
> 
> ...


 

 No need for heatsinks, a 25w soldering iron should be enough without giving off too much heat. Another good tip is to tin the wire used for soldering first, that way it only takes fractions of a second to solder the wire onto the BA's pad.
  If you can pick up some Cardas solder, it's dirt cheap and melts like butter, no need to apply anymore flux beforehand.
   
  Personally smd soldering is way harder than BA


----------



## cyph3r

Quote: 





tranhieu said:


> No need for heatsinks, a 25w soldering iron should be enough without giving off too much heat. Another good tip is to tin the wire used for soldering first, that way it only takes fractions of a second to solder the wire onto the BA's pad.
> If you can pick up some Cardas solder, it's dirt cheap and melts like butter, no need to apply anymore flux beforehand.
> 
> Personally smd soldering is way harder than BA


 


 You got a point there, tranhieu, and thanks for sharing the info. I believe that solder alloy you refer to contains most likely lead which lowers the melting point of the solder. Personally, I am trying to move to non-lead solder like SAC especially when the parts a close to the body all the time (liky earphones). Maybe its a bit superstitiuous to get RoHs conform 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. Of course that may mean higher melting points and all the disadvantages that come along with it.
   
  Yeah, smd is a tricky story but I managed the opamps of two mini3s so far relatively well so I hope it turns out like you said (I ordered one pair of rather cheap "trial" drivers to excercise with).
   
  How many IEM's did you complete?


----------



## piotrus-g

AFAIK Cardas, WBT and other high end solders (I know it sounds at least wrong lol) are lead free


----------



## tomscy2000

Quote: 





piotrus-g said:


> It seems no one have tried it yet. But you can find GQ in ADDIEM, W2 or SA7 - to give you a glimpse of how it can sound


 

 I think the TDK BA200 might also actually be using a GQ driver; it's not confirmed, but the renderings in this official video from TDK looks like so...


----------



## ardgedee

Quote: 





piotrus-g said:


> AFAIK Cardas, WBT and other high end solders (I know it sounds at least wrong lol) are lead free


 

 Cardas Tri Eutectic is lead-free. Cardas Quad Eutectic has lead.


----------



## KarmaIncluded

Quote: 





tomscy2000 said:


> I think the TDK BA200 might also actually be using a GQ driver; it's not confirmed, but the renderings in this official video from TDK looks like so...


 


  Hint: Its not the GQ!


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote: 





karmaincluded said:


> Hint: Its not the GQ!


 
  Sonion? How do you know?
  
  [Edit] Your profile discription tells everything.


----------



## tomscy2000

Quote: 





karmaincluded said:


> Hint: Its not the GQ!


 

 Oh? _Curiouser and curiouser..._


----------



## tomscy2000

Oh, BTW, I wonder if Aurisonics will be willing to sell just the shells of the ASG-1 in the future. That would certainly make it easier to test out new circuit setups without having to pour new molds and such, or even break open the faceplate to make adjustments, since the ASG has a screw-on faceplate...
   
  I think there's a good possibility that they will sell parts, since Aurisonics is all about field-serviceability...


----------



## Fredrichs

Found this company today and was wondering if you guys thought there products may be usable for the shells. http://www.solarez.com/productsnew/lowvoc4oz.html


----------



## MuZo2

Quote: 





tomscy2000 said:


> if Aurisonics will be willing to sell just the shells of the ASG-1 in the future.


 

 Do you mean universal or customs? If you want universal you might me able to get some shure shells from ebay seller. He also sells cables and plugs.


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote: 





fredrichs said:


> Found this company today and was wondering if you guys thought there products may be usable for the shells. http://www.solarez.com/productsnew/lowvoc4oz.html


 

 No. The last thing you want is ear irritation. You should look for bio- or medical-grade materials.


----------



## tomscy2000

Quote: 





muzo2 said:


> Do you mean universal or customs? If you want universal you might me able to get some shure shells from ebay seller. He also sells cables and plugs.


 

 Yeah, I know about the Shure shells; that's not a lot of room, so you can't experiment with anything greater than 2 or 3 BAs... the ASG generic shell can probably stuff six drivers in...


----------



## MuZo2

There is lot of info on BA driver mfg, is there any similar info for Dynamic once used in iem?


----------



## piotrus-g

actually no, but maybe I didnt go into reseach deeply either
  I know that Knowles makes some DD but besides one 16x3mm none of them seem to be interesting for earphone application. Yet 16mm OD is def. not for custom IEMs.
   
  Fosetx maybe? you could try mouser but there's probably lots of DD


----------



## cyph3r

Quote: 





fredrichs said:


> Found this company today and was wondering if you guys thought there products may be usable for the shells. http://www.solarez.com/productsnew/lowvoc4oz.html


 


  Friedrichs, check ou Solarez MSDS (= material safety data sheet) section: http://www.solarez.com/msds.html. The monomers (these are the plastic polymer building blocks) such as styrene, other epoxides or acrylates which are used in mixtures such as those of Solarez can be allergenic, toxic or carcinogenic. They are fine for outdoor applications where residual monomer usually do no harm without contact to skin. But nothing you would want in your ear canal for the duration of a symphony. 
   
  -> dont use materials in contact with skin that are explicitly designed for this purpose.


----------



## bonebrain

Would anyone happen to have a link to a supplier that would sell to individuals?  I have gone through this thread but have not necessarily found a good link for UV curable bio/medical grade material?
   
  thanks


----------



## piotrus-g

Loctite 3321 AFAIR


----------



## alexlsn

If I were to do a quint, with 1-CI and 2-TWFK, should I bother with a crossover, or do I not need one?


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote: 





alexlsn said:


> If I were to do a quint, with 1-CI and 2-TWFK, should I bother with a crossover, or do I not need one?


 

 LOL. Yes you need one and actually pretty complicated one. You'd need 3way 2nd order crossover


----------



## alexlsn

thanks, my only problem right now then is finding small enough inductors...


----------



## bonebrain

Can you not wire the two sections of the TWFK independently as well so you could do a fifth order such that each section of the TWFK has a distinct section of response?


----------



## cyph3r

I am wondering about how important venting for IEMs is. I realize some earplugs are vented, some not. Whats the rationale for this?


----------



## Fredrichs

Quote: 





bonebrain said:


> Would anyone happen to have a link to a supplier that would sell to individuals?  I have gone through this thread but have not necessarily found a good link for UV curable bio/medical grade material?
> 
> thanks


 
   
  I'm having the same problem.


----------



## notgod

Can someone comment on TWFK+DTEC vs 2323+2091i from a personal experience (not graphs)?

 piotrus-g says 2323 has much better highs (more prominent and less metallic), and that 2091i is better than CI.
 MaoDi says even 2015 us better than CI.
   
  So is it 2091i > 2015 > DTEC > CI?


----------



## notgod

Quote: 





bonebrain said:


> Would anyone happen to have a link to a supplier that would sell to individuals?


 

 As an alternative to acrylic shells I would suggest Radians silicone. Cheap, safe, hypoallergenic. More comfortable and — most important — you can keep the drivers for updates and experiments.
   
  Few notes: It won't be fully smooth (as the skin isn't). To make it smooth you can make a mold, smooth it and then use it instead if you find it worth it. You also might want to try pigment as the stock color choices are limited. Also, if you be using connectors, a plastic or acryl insert will obviously be required.


----------



## KarmaIncluded

Quote: 





piotrus-g said:


> Sonion? How do you know?
> 
> [Edit] Your profile discription tells everything.


 

 Can't tell you more than that, but I'll think you can guess the rest


----------



## KarmaIncluded

Quote: 





notgod said:


> Can someone comment on TWFK+DTEC vs 2323+2091i from a personal experience (not graphs)?
> 
> piotrus-g says 2323 has much better highs (more prominent and less metallic), and that 2091i is better than CI.
> MaoDi says even 2015 us better than CI.
> ...


 

 One thing you should remember is that TWFK is a 2-way driver, the receivers are not identical. That makes TWFK + DTEC a 3 - way system and comparing with 2323 + 2091i (2-way) may not be entirely fair. 
   
  I've not listened to Knowles drivers, but have listened a lot to Sonion drivers. And especially 2300, which I like very much. The 2300 in itself has very good high frequency output and can be extended above 15kHz with the right tubing. It has also a warm mid-range. 
  2000 receiver is a beast. Big diaphragm, big output and big everything. My experience with this driver is that it is difficult to control. With a 2300/2000 combination you'll want the x-over at mid-range (1000 Hz). You really need some measurement equipment to balance it with a tweeter. It easily can overwhelm the mid-range, making it sound muddy. Personally I would choose 3300 or 3700 (dual-drivers same size as 2000) for subwoofer. 
   
  With the 2-way TWFK, the mid-range is already balanced by Knowles. You can boost the Low bass by adding a sub-driver like the DTEC and X-over around 200Hz or whatever you like. You can also make X-over at mid-range 1000Hz, but then you are "wasting" the extra driver in the TWFK.


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *notgod* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> So is it 2091i > 2015 > DTEC > CI?


 
  There's no simple answer to this question. It all depends on your application design


----------



## MuZo2

Quote: 





notgod said:


> Can someone comment on TWFK+DTEC vs 2323+2091i from a personal experience (not graphs)?


 
  TWFK+DTEC is used by Westone 4
  2323+3300 UE Triple.fi
  How they sound depends on x-over tubing design.


----------



## notgod

Quote: 





karmaincluded said:


> One thing you should remember is that TWFK is a 2-way driver, the receivers are not identical. That makes TWFK + DTEC a 3 - way system [...]


 
  Even more, since DTEC is a double.
  TWFK + DTEC = Westone 4, Heirs 4.A etc.
   
  Since Sonion do not retail, I was hoping to hear from someone who tried 23xx + 20xx duo and can compare to the K quad, however unfair it is.
   
  Yes, 2323 + 3300 = UE Triple.fi (10 Pro iirc), but 3300 is also a double. 2091i is a single (pretty powerful though) with a different sig.
   
*KarmaIncluded,  *your info is very very helpful. Huge thanks, especially for all the details.


----------



## notgod

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *piotrus-g* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> [So is it 2091i > 2015 > DTEC > CI?]
> There's no simple answer to this question. It all depends on your application design


 

Half coil design. Not yet sure where to cut off. Dampers & tubes length — by testing on innocent humans (me).
   
  Btw — I've accidently  started a DIY rant, feel free to jump in.


----------



## KarmaIncluded

UE TripleFi10 are made for american ears. Which means a lot of High and Lows buy little mid-range. I personally don't like the sound-signature. I'm a very mid-range critical person. The UE for me is too sharp in the highs. The U shape response of these earphones makes them sound very interesting at first. But it not some earphones I could wear for hours. The UE TripleFi10 is just too weird for me.
   
  I don't know the X-over of the TripleFi10, but I would guess that the it is at much higher frequency than 1000Hz. For my taste a X-over at 1000-1200Hz with 2300/3300 would be preferable. With these same drivers but different components the sound signature can be significantly different. 1 dB difference in the mid-range can shift the sound from presence and hollow.


----------



## notgod

What uF and mH would you use and with what dampers?


----------



## tony-pro

Today I called NuSil and purchased med4-4220
   
http://www.nusil.com/library/products/MED4-4220P.pdf
   
  I will update on a Thread I started. http://www.head-fi.org/t/603916/diy-silicone-iems-input-welcome
  
  Quote: 





bonebrain said:


> Would anyone happen to have a link to a supplier that would sell to individuals?  I have gone through this thread but have not necessarily found a good link for UV curable bio/medical grade material?
> 
> thanks


----------



## tomscy2000

Quote: 





karmaincluded said:


> UE TripleFi10 are made for american ears. Which means a lot of High and Lows buy little mid-range. I personally don't like the sound-signature. I'm a very mid-range critical person. The UE for me is too sharp in the highs. The U shape response of these earphones makes them sound very interesting at first. But it not some earphones I could wear for hours. The UE TripleFi10 is just too weird for me.
> 
> I don't know the X-over of the TripleFi10, but I would guess that the it is at much higher frequency than 1000Hz. For my taste a X-over at 1000-1200Hz with 2300/3300 would be preferable. With these same drivers but different components the sound signature can be significantly different. 1 dB difference in the mid-range can shift the sound from presence and hollow.


 

 What about 4400 and 3300? The 3300 seems to have good response up to 1 kHz, so this combination might be more of an equal-approach counterpoint to the TWFK/DTEC solution.


----------



## notgod

Quote: 





tomscy2000 said:


> [...] good response up to 1 kHz [...]


 
  Last time I checked, the public Sonion graphs were not reliable due their priority & conditions = hearing aid tests. Selecting a driver just from these graphs alone might not be a safe idea.


----------



## tomscy2000

Quote: 





notgod said:


> Last time I checked, the public Sonion graphs were not reliable due their priority & conditions = hearing aid tests. Selecting a driver just from these graphs alone might not be a safe idea.


 

 Well, I also based it on the fact that Suyama FitEar also uses the 33A007 as their midrange drivers for a couple of their designs, such as the C435 and the MH334. According to Jude, the MH334 has probably the most detailed midrange of any custom he has ever used. I'm not sure, but FitEar might be wiring it in series, too.


----------



## Swimsonny

Ive been thinking that i want to give one of these a go!
   
  Is their a nice sorta beginners walkthrough guide to making one anywhere, i think ill start with just a TWFK as i like my DBAs but might add another driver for bass! Depends on how complicated it all looks!


----------



## notgod

Guys, there is one thing about IEMs that I do not understand much:
 Why there are no commercial TWFK + ED-23147 combos?

 The reasons why it is a good triple are:
 1) very nice sounding (nice TWFK mids & acceptable highs + ED extended and honest, but not overwhelming bass)
 2) easy to X-Over (dampers-only possible, or at most with ~1uF filter)
 3) It's the smallest (allows low profile shells)

 Possible market is:
 1) the TWFK lovers (DBA-02, BW 2, VSonic GR01, ATH-CK10, Q-Jays, UE700) lovers — who'd appreciate the extended, but not overdone bass.
 2) those who tried TWFK, but really wanted just some more bass
 3) those who set comfort as a priority, but want wider and clearer sound than UM1, W1, SM1.

 You can't make a smaller good triple. Why nobody makes them? ED is a dwarf woofer,  but isn't that what many like — some, but not much?

 P.S. I'm planning to use them in a diy slicone ultras a'la ACS T3 shells:
   

   
  P.S. *Swimsonny*, good luck. Use a 25W solder or some metal to keep the drivers safe.


----------



## Swimsonny

Quote: 





notgod said:


> The reasons why it is a good triple are:
> 1) very nice sounding (nice TWFK mids & acceptable highs + extended and honest, but not overwhelming bass)
> 2) easy to X-Over (dampers-only possible, or at most with ~1uF cap as a high-pass)
> 3) It's the smallest (allows low profile shells)
> ...


 
  That sounds pretty much perfect for me  
   
  Okay that looks really complicated but i think ill have to try giving it a go, just don't know if i have the tools although i can get my hands on the solder!


----------



## notgod

Tools are cheap: Soldering station or any other you like. The bigger problem is to buy the drivers, tubes and dampers _without_ paying for shipping. I don't know about the USA/Canada, but for the most parts of the world the free shipping is only on orders over $200, otherwise it's $60.
   
  Maybe you're better off posting a buy request and check the sell posts. Just few days a guy was selling 2 TWFKs and 2 CIs for $20 each or $60 all.
  Another option is to place a buy post a'la «WTB broken DBA-02, VSonic GR01, ATH-CK10, Q-Jays, UE700 — in any condition that has drivers intact».
  I guess you can get those for $0-30.


----------



## Swimsonny

Looks like i should be able to do alright and by the looks of things i there is a uk based store as the drivers were in pounds not dollars so I'm hoping i will get off lightly there! if not i will post to get some drivers like you said as that will work out cheaper!


----------



## notgod

Well, good luck. Here is some info if you want to tweak it:
   
  «TWFK drivers have extended HF response and may benefit from smoothing of high frequency peaks. With no damper, there's a spike between 600 and 800 Hz, from 112 to 121 dB. A 330 ohm damper reduces this spike to 115 dB and sets its occurrence at between 500 and 600 Hz. A 680 ohm damper virtually levels it.

 The recommended cap for the TWFK is .82uF. A lower value (such as .47uF) slightly increases bass (by about 1 dB) helps fill in the recessed mids between 400 Hz and 1kHz, but dramatically increases the HF spike at 1.5kHz (by about 3 dB). At the same time, it lowers HF output from about 4.5kHz and up. A smaller cap (1.5uF) has virtually no affect on bass but adds to the 1.5kHz spike (by 1-2 dB) and moves the 7kHz valley to 2.5 kHz. On the other hand, it provides the most ample HF response from 3kHz onward.»
   
  — from here
   
   
  P.S. A little note on capacitors. In consumer level IEMs most common type is ceramic. They are not considered of an audiophile grade for few semi-technical reasons and the fact that they are tiny. If you care about the size, buy ceramic. If you're a badass, buy ELNA Silmic or AVX OxiCap. They are also much easier to wire.


----------



## Swimsonny

Quote: 





notgod said:


> Well, good luck. Here is some info if you want to tweak it:


 
   
  I know I'm asking a hell of a lot from you but what would be the easiest one i could make that would have a worth while and satisfying sound? I think id like to look to make one maybe on par with the UM3x or maybe that set up you previously mentioned? Anything that'll be ok for a first time?


----------



## notgod

Quote: 





swimsonny said:


> [...] a worth while and satisfying sound? [...]


 
   
  If you change «sound» with «food»¹ in your question, you'll see how hard it'd be to answer. So. You can start with nothing, just the driver (I know at least 3 people how like it that way). Then try white and gray dampers. Then 1-3 caps. Try changing the length of the tube (to simplify, it affects highs). Than, if you are still curious — try maybe 1-2 more caps.
   
  There is a chance that you'll shove it in your ear and will love it. There is a chance you'll try everything, and it'll still sound **** to you.
   
  You can also get mad, but that's later.
   
  ———
  ¹ _Didn't know the age at the moment of writing. Nice example though._


----------



## Swimsonny

Quote: 





notgod said:


> If you change «sound» with «sex» in your question, you'll see how hard it'd be to answer. So. You can start with nothing, just the driver (I know at least 3 people how like it that way). Then try white and gray dampers. Then 1-3 caps. Try changing the length of the tube (to simplify, it affects highs). Than, if you are still curious — try maybe 1-2 more caps.
> 
> There is a chance that you'll shove it in your ear and will love it. There is a chance you'll try everything, and it'll still sound **** to you.


 


  I know it is very brief but i am not really wanting a particular sound signature and i will be happy for the first one to just play music! I will happily try it just in the case that ill love it!


----------



## notgod

We'll see. Once we finally turn you, there's no way out. You'll slowly start avoiding sun. And the end is _terrible_ — acoustic-only high-pass and band-stop filters.


----------



## Swimsonny

WOW i don't have clue what that is  Im going to be honest I'm not too  educated with electronics and a lot of what your saying does not make that much sense. What would be good is a simple step to step guide for dummies on what to do to go along side the pictures on flickr! Everything that you've posted I've put on a word document for when i dfinish school and can do it !


----------



## tomscy2000

Quote: 





swimsonny said:


> WOW i don't have clue what that is  Im going to be honest I'm not too  educated with electronics and a lot of what your saying does not make that much sense. What would be good is a simple step to step guide for dummies on what to do to go along side the pictures on flickr! Everything that you've posted I've put on a word document for when i dfinish school and can do it !


 

 Essentially, it's a flute. haha that doesn't help much with the explanation...


----------



## Swimsonny

Quote: 





tomscy2000 said:


> Essentially, it's a flute. haha that doesn't help much with the explanation...


 
  ? ahahaa, yeh your right that didn't help much at all  thanks anyway tom!
   
  Oh if your talking about the acoustic thing then i am with you !


----------



## notgod

Well — if you want to learn about how the circuitry (and the world in whole)  works — the best source for your age is Khan Academy.
 I know a lot of adult people who can't stop watching the guy.

Circuits (part 1) • Circuits (part 2) • Circuits (part 3) • Circuits (part 4)
   
  There are some more electricity related stuff within here, but some of it might require you to get even slightly back and learn more basic stuff. I don't think you'll understand Capacitance without doing it.
   
  But if you watch more of him, you'll boost your brain and grades like hell.


----------



## poeticEnnui

What's the mentality behind driver redundancy? AFAIK the only benefit is increased SPL efficiency; what's the point of a bandpass filter between two TWFKs? Just curious.


----------



## KarmaIncluded

Quote: 





> tomscy2000
> 
> 
> What about 4400 and 3300? The 3300 seems to have good response up to 1 kHz, so this combination might be more of an equal-approach counterpoint to the TWFK/DTEC solution.





    
  4400 has a somewhat low output so you will get less headroom. Maybe it could be interesting to use another tweeter in conjuction with the 4400 or 2 x 4400.
   
   
  Quote:


notgod said:


> Last time I checked, the public Sonion graphs were not reliable due their priority & conditions = hearing aid tests. Selecting a driver just from these graphs alone might not be a safe idea.


 

  
  Correct. Please look at what measurement coupling is used. The most relevant coupling for earphones is the IEC 711 coupling + tubing. But be aware that your tubing will likely be different than in the datasheet. This will change the response in the high frequencies: +6kHz. Measurement in 2cc couplers are very misleading in terms of earphones. It is for standard comparisons only.


----------



## tomscy2000

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *KarmaIncluded* /img/forum/go_quote.gif  4400 has a somewhat low output so you will get less headroom. Maybe it could be interesting to use another tweeter in conjuction with the 4400 or 2 x 4400.


 

 I agree 2x4400 would be better, but doesn't the TWFK have somewhat similar output characteristics?


----------



## tranhieu

Quote: 





karmaincluded said:


> Correct. Please look at what measurement coupling is used. The most relevant coupling for earphones is the IEC 711 coupling + tubing. But be aware that your tubing will likely be different than in the datasheet. This will change the response in the high frequencies: +6kHz. Measurement in 2cc couplers are very misleading in terms of earphones. It is for standard comparisons only.


 

  
  well from what I have seen most of custom iems out there use hearing aid grade equipments for testing. UE and westone used something like the 4195 while fit ear uses the 711, um uses 711 coupling with the 43ac. etymotic also uses 711 for their er4p, as well as some ha1 and ha2 for testing.
   
  I see nothing wrong with using hearing aid equipments. In fact the best measuring equipments you can get on the market come from companies like b&k or gras as countless efforts have been spent on researching how to simulate human ears as close as possible. the zwislocki coupler (before it was renamed the 711) is said to be the best coupler for simulating inner ear's impedance and it was developed for the hearing aid industry in the first place.


----------



## notgod

Also, the 711 is what is used for all those Golden Ears graphs:
   

   
  But generally 3rd party graphs are full of gotchas. It's a bit like mail order brides.


----------



## tranhieu

brides? sorry I can't get your humor there.
   
  it's true graphs don't tell you everything, but they do tell you loads of things. A good pair always has good graphs. Look at the hd800 or er4p, finely tuned to bits. You can't say I just want something sounds good regardless of its nasty, go-all-over-the-place graphs. Moreover having accurate equipments not only give you good graphs but your simulations are also improved, which will then save you from shoving into your ear the new design each time you come across one just for the sake of testing.


----------



## notgod

Sorry for being unclear. I was talking about ordering drivers, not phones.
   
  I am the author of probably the worst sounding IEMs in the world. Drivers were from a small shop wannabies. They lied about 1) the chamber cm³ 2) tubes length 3) tubes diameter.
   
  I distrust graphs probably more than I should, but you know, I cannot re-calculate test tubes → mine and chamber → my ear by just looking at graphs.


----------



## tomscy2000

Anyone played around with the GP30711 yet? It seems like a good starting point, as it's superior to the GQ in that it has dual spouts instead of one single 12S port, giving more tuning options...
   
  EDIT 01: I also wonder what a Sony BA would sound like with tubing and dampers...
  EDIT 02: Also, would using a Ferrofluid FED negate the need for acoustic dampers if one were to use an FED as a high driver?
  EDIT 03: What coupler does SONOVE use?


----------



## notgod

Your questions are so advanced that they probably triggered the Echelon in all five countries — hence no replies. Presuming others are dead and they already are tracing me:

 $5 that nobody here tried GP yet.

 I haven't had a chance to gut the Sony XBA series, but according to the people they are using acoustic only filters. If we ignore tubes length (as, to simplify, it just extends/condenses highs), or weird tube shapes, one can only play with dampers — i.e. only with low-passes.

 Dampers (available to us) come in discrete steps, so you are usually limited to about 1-2 dampers choice or 2 × 1-3 two-damper combinations (a hair-range of freedom, but still). One, theoretically speaking, might also try own wool or other materials, or some other mechanical restrictor, like a grill (if have access to micro tools).

 I guess they skipped the caps (if they did) because strictly (well, very strictly) speaking a cap — is hardly a crossover. The 1st order slope is so girly (unlike, say, 4th order ninja cuts) that they've probably decided they are better off combining driver properties (incl. sensitivity, power, etc) in a way that could do without it.

 I don't think with 2 bores superimposing is an issue in general, and the XBA series is probably a good real-life example — if it really is what I think it is. But I doubt their motivation was THD, phase shifting or anything Bigfoot-related.

 I'd speculate their approach is a result of the Japanese design culture, which is especially prominent in modern architecture — with its zen simplicity and shapes that create meaning with just few strokes. Speaking of strokes — I'd even say the sound was designed as a Shodo, but afraid you would be the only member that might agree.

 The inside info on SONOVE and especially the Ferrofluids (which could be used to destroy the Earth by inserting a driver into a 1 m hole in the ground and playing «Friday Friday») was probably what triggered the Echelon and wiped out the members of this thread. But I'll tell you what I think since they can't tr


----------



## Swimsonny

Hello All,
   
  Me and my friend have decided that we want o make our own DIY IEM when we finish school as a bit of fun! Obviously we would like it to sound awesome but we won't be to annoyed if it does not. We are think that we will use a a TWFK and maybe possibly cover it with another BA for the bass! Is this too hard for a first time or is this a realistic idea? 
   
  If someone would be able to either post on here or PM me a step by step guide on how one would go about doing the soldering, xover and shelling it (would like to try and make it custom) etc. that would be great and be much appreciated as we want to be sure that we would not be wasting our money buying the required parts!
   
  Thanks
   
  Sonny


----------



## MuZo2

I would suggest just try TWFK to start with & try different filters & tube lengths, depending on the success/failure you can try to move to adding additional drivers and some form of crossover.
 Note : Even to get the TWFK wired at start is tough job, you need skills with solder iron. Its very small driver.


----------



## Swimsonny

muzo2 said:


> I would suggest just try TWFK to start with & try different filters & tube lengths, depending on the success/failure you can try to move to adding additional drivers and some form of crossover.
> Note : Even to get the TWFK wired at start is tough job, you need skills with solder iron. Its very small driver.




Yeh I'm happy to start off with a just a TWFK but I don't really know we're to start with wiring and especially how I'm going to get it into a shell!


----------



## MuZo2

Have you seen _VSonic GR01 to start with you can try similar shell instead of customs.
 Regarding wires, I think you can find litze on ebay and for dampers you can check _
http://colsanmicro.com

_you can also find cables and sockets with them._


----------



## Swimsonny

Quote: 





muzo2 said:


> Have you seen _VSonic GR01 to start with you can try similar shell instead of customs.
> Regarding wires, I think you can find litze on ebay and for dampers you can check _
> http://colsanmicro.com
> 
> _you can also find cables and sockets with them._


 
   
  Were can you get a shell like the GR01 as that'd be easier! I have already came across colsanmicro! What is lizte braided cables? So if i was too make a GR01 shell with TWFK what should i look at getting on my list?


----------



## tony-pro

I can't order a 33A007 from sonion. They said they only sell quantities. Anyone know of a way I can buy 2?


----------



## MuZo2

I guess only other way is to salvage from TF10 or other similar IEM


----------



## MuZo2

Quote: 





swimsonny said:


> Were can you get a shell like the GR01 as that'd be easier!


 
  May be something like this ...
http://www.focalprice.com/EP326B/35mm_MDREX1082SL_Inear_Earphone_for_MP3MP4MP5CD_Black.html


----------



## tomscy2000

I remember it being mentioned that the the 2000 series is slightly smaller than the CI right? I'm thinking about a good choice of woofer to add to my TWFK + 3300 combination, and I'm beginning to have doubts that the CI will fit in my small-sized shells, especially with the 33A007 already in place. So... 2015, 2028, 2091i?


----------



## MuZo2

33A007 is a woofer why do you need additional one.
 CI 9.47mm x 7.18mm x 4.10mm 
   
2000 9.53mm x 7.24mm x 4.14mm
 It would be difficult to fit 33A007 + CI or 2000 if you are not planning custom shells


----------



## tomscy2000

Quote: 





muzo2 said:


> 33A007 is a woofer why do you need additional one.
> CI 9.47mm x 7.18mm x 4.10mm
> 
> 2000 9.53mm x 7.24mm x 4.14mm
> It would be difficult to fit 33A007 + CI or 2000 if you are not planning custom shells


 
   
  It'll be a sub-bass boosting woofer, coming online only below 50-80 Hz. It is a custom shell; I just have small ears.


----------



## piotrus-g

Yeah, 2000 is actaully bigger one
   
  3300+CI +TWFK will be easy to fit. So no worries. CI is a great woofer and lower mid-range driver. It has pretty liquid mids. I heard to two opinions on 2000 one saying it's a great woofer but not mid-woofer and second that it's great mid-woofer but there are better low-drivers. So I can't tell you much about that driver. It probably all comes down to preferences
   
  2015, 2028, 2091i - it all up to you. It depends on your aim and there's more than one anwser to the question which suits you more.


----------



## tomscy2000

Quote: 





piotrus-g said:


> 3300+CI +TWFK will be easy to fit. So no worries.


 
   
  You haven't seen my ears! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I do think that it might fit, just a little dangerous.


----------



## MuZo2

Quote: 





maodi said:


> *Lows-* Knowles CI, Sonion 3300, Sonion 2015, Sonion 2028 (The CI, 2015 and 2028 are the most powerful, while the 3300 goes the lowest)
> Also, the output of the 2015 is far greater than both the 3300 and the 3700. Sonion says the output of Dual 2015's would be equal to about Three 3300 (9 armatures). So these are powerful drivers.


 
  3300+CI +TWFK would be Westone 3 with additional 3300 driver.


----------



## tomscy2000

Quote: 





muzo2 said:


> 3300+CI +TWFK would be Westone 3 with additional 3300 driver.


 
   
  But it's not wired like a W3! The 3300 would be used mainly as a mid/low driver, rather than a subwoofer. I'm trying to use the CI as a subwoofer.


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote: 





tomscy2000 said:


> But it's not wired like a W3! The 3300 would be used mainly as a mid/low driver, rather than a subwoofer. I'm trying to use the CI as a subwoofer.


 

 And it's good thing to do. And no I have not seen your ears, but let me tell you TWFK is CIC driver for a reason 
   
  Speaking of your ear capacity how you even did come up with the idea of the project we were discussing over PM? :O


----------



## MuZo2

I am wondering where do I get filter replacement tool for sonion filters.


----------



## tony-pro

Please Help, does this look alright?


----------



## MuZo2

Is this something from speaker design sw ?
 139 ohms series resistor seems bit high , may be you can consider acoustic low pass filter & reduce the resistor value. May be the sonion expert we have here can give us more suggestions.


----------



## tony-pro

Quote: 





muzo2 said:


> Is this something from speaker design sw ?
> 139 ohms series resistor seems bit high , may be you can consider acoustic low pass filter & reduce the resistor value. May be the sonion expert we have here can give us more suggestions.


 
   
  No, It's from a circuit design software called tinycad (open source). The reason I put the 1st resistor up so high is because when I wire the drivers in parallel, the impedance drop is huge. I'm going for ~ 30 Ohms of impedance on this circuit ... however that's 30 Ohms and 1KHz. I am attempting to go with a Damper-less design.


----------



## tsn141

Damperless design not easy


----------



## tony-pro

Quote: 





tsn141 said:


> Damperless design not easy


 
  Can you explain why?


----------



## royneo

Hi,was wondering if Knowles Acoustics Drivers come in pairs or singly?Eg. when ordering from Digi-key,did they send 2 drivers for both the left and right channels when ordering for 1 quantity?Is it $62.58 for 1 driver or 2 drivers in this link,http://www.digikey.sg/scripts/DKSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&itemSeq=114236233&uq=634719045856563557 ?


----------



## MuZo2

The link you provided doesnot work, but normally they are sold in single units.


----------



## royneo

Apologies,try this one here.http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?x=0&y=0&lang=en&site=us&KeyWords=dtec   in this case the price will be at $45.51 for 1 driver?


----------



## Mython

Certainly looks like a single unit to me.


----------



## MuZo2

Yes. Though DTEC is dual driver, but its in once casing, so you will need 2 drivers. DTEC and TWFK are bit expensive.


----------



## royneo

I am planning to use them(Knowles Acoustics DTEC) as mids,any good alternatives to those drivers?


----------



## MuZo2

check page 71 for various drivers used in IEM


----------



## delladood

does anybody know where to buy a good full range dynamic driver with 32ohms??? All I see is 8ohms and a few strange looking 32ohms.  Any idea why they are encased like seen here? http://search.digikey.com/us/en/products/AST-1732MR-R/668-1140-ND/1464879
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/PUI-Audio/AST-01532MR-R/?qs=e16JbV5WBEs6FTpqXM1WXZsAEJc14kCGcjQ1rvt38Lo%3d


----------



## Mython

Because those are designed to be soldered directly onto a circuit board?


----------



## delladood

Quote: 





mython said:


> Because those are designed to be soldered directly onto a circuit board?


 
  actually they are for alarms/buzzers hahaha.
  I'm going to be doing a dual diaphragm with no crossover.  We're gonna see how this works.


----------



## Ztick

Wow, this thread is fairly amazing...just spent several hours reading through all of it :3
   
  So now that i'm all hyped up from reading....made a little set up and was wondering if anyone could input on some changes/ possible alterations
   
*3 drivers all in parallel:*
   
  CI22955 +red filter
   
  2015 + white filter? *IF  I cant get a hold of these then ill use ->> *ED Series, maybe 23147?
   
  WBFK30019 +white filter + 1 microF cap

 my apologies..forgot the values of the filters....been through too many pages to back track to where they were listed
   
*How I think I will to make the shell:*
   
  1 - make impression with impression kit
   
  2 - Make a silicone / epoxy mould
   
  3 - Make a plaster earpiece. Make this nice and smooth
   
  4- Make another mould
   
  5 - Layer of Shapelock in the mould to make a shell-ish thing. At this point it should still be "open" without a faceplate. I will add parts which extrude into the area where the faceplate is meant to be and have holes to accommodate a bolted assembly with the actual faceplate. 

 Question is,....with this hollow shell would i still need tubing? or could i do a funnel like thing into the canal section of the shell and call it a day?


----------



## edba2000

Here is my first attempt: Sonion 2323 + Sonion 33a007
   
   
  (the covers are missing)
  

   

   

   
  The result was not what I was expecting!
  I will build another pair with Knowles drivers (CI+ED)


----------



## tomscy2000

Quote: 





edba2000 said:


> Here is my first attempt: Sonion 2323 + Sonion 33a007    ...*The result was not what I was expecting!*


 
   
  Nice! Not what you were expecting in what way? That's a TF10-like setup right there; was it unexpectedly unlike a TF10?


----------



## NuckinFutz

edba2000 said:


> Here is my first attempt: Sonion 2323 + Sonion 33a007
> 
> 
> (the covers are missing)
> ...




Very impressive! Great job ebda! Did you experiment with sound tube lengths etc?


----------



## MuZo2

Quote: 





> The result was not what I was expecting!
> I will build another pair with Knowles drivers (CI+ED)


 
  Very nice, the shells have come out very nicely. Whats wrong with the sound ?


----------



## bonebrain

Interesting shell's. What was the material that you used? It appears to have a rather rough finish to it.

Also, do the coax connectors have more weight then expected?


----------



## delladood

tomscy2000 said:


> edba2000 said:
> 
> 
> > Here is my first attempt: Sonion 2323 + Sonion 33a007    ...*The result was not what I was expecting!*
> ...




He didn't mention any crossover what so ever. He also didn't use any sound damper. It looks good tho.


----------



## MuZo2

Quote: 





delladood said:


> He didn't mention any crossover what so ever. He also didn't use any sound damper. It looks good tho.


 
  He has used some basic cross over, you can see the registor. Not shure on sound dampers & their placement.


----------



## edba2000

Here is the material:
http://dentala2z.co.uk/epages/eshop133027.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/eshop133027/Products/PRE10054
   
  It is a great product! Hard as a rock!!!
  The first test I have done was a 1mm thick shell! -> completely stable and solid
   
  The only "con" is the resulting surface. It is not shiny, as you can see in the pictures.


----------



## edba2000

This is the design I have followed:
   

  1 uF cap and 10 ohms resistor
  green damper for the 2323 driver
  yellow damper for the 33a007 driver
  (the dampers were removed at the time of the pictures)


----------



## wz2000

Great to see some life back in this thread. I've also started making my own iems. I'm using a TWFK with an ED23147 as the woofer.
   
  I've done a pretty complicated crossover incorporating a lowpass filter and two highpass filters. Also an L-pad to drop the sensitivity of the woofer, with the added benefit of smoothing it's impedance changes a bit.
   
  I've already cast a solid epoxy piece as a test. Now I need to figure out a method for casting a hollow piece, which is difficult as the epoxy has a very long cure time.


----------



## LaaG

I thought I'd join in on this thread. After all, "How hard can it be?"....
   
  Here are some pictures of a hollow shell I managed to make:
   

   

   
  Got a few ideas on the next steps but still unsure.


----------



## wz2000

It can be really difficult. Especially developing a proper crossover.
   
  I found that it's almost easier to cast a solid piece and hollow it out with a dremel, than to try to cast a hollow one. This is with the epoxy I'm using though. It might be different with other materials.
   
  Also if anyone is interested, I measured full impedance graphs from the TWFK and ED-23147 drivers. These are quite useful for figuring out needed component values for crossovers.


----------



## bonebrain

Very interested in your graphs.  Can you post or send via PM?
   
  Thanks


----------



## wz2000

Ok, here's a screencap from a spreadsheet I made. These measurements were made using the process mentioned here: http://sound.westhost.com/tsp.htm
   
  As for the accuracy of my tests, you can compare these to the few values provided by knowles(impedance @500hz and @1khz). They're quite close.
   
  These drivers have some pretty substantial impedance changes. Especially the ED-23147, those peaks are huge!


----------



## tsn141

Thanks for graphs.


----------



## JoshR

Can't wait to see how LaaGs turns out!


----------



## LaaG

I think I'm just gonna keep it simple. No crossovers as my soldering skills are rubbish.
As others have said, accoustic dampers should surfice (eg: Sony xba).

Just ordered a pair of TWFK and Ci with a grey filter for the rwfk and red for the ci driver.


----------



## kiteki

I don't think the Sony XBA's have acoustic dampers, they diaphragm is specifically tuned to a different frequency in each driver.  Either way, they don't suffice, I can't listen to the XBA-3 or XBA-4 for more than 30 minutes, I can't stand them.


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote: 





kiteki said:


> I don't think the Sony XBA's have acoustic dampers, they diaphragm is specifically tuned to a different frequency in each driver.  Either way, they don't suffice, I can't listen to the XBA-3 or XBA-4 for more than 30 minutes, I can't stand them.


 

 Hmm I listened to XBA3 for a few minus and I liked the sound. I listened it from clip+ though from Samsung galaxy S it sounded very lacking


----------



## wz2000

While I'm still working on my crossovers for my triple driver project, I made these:
   

   
   
  I took drivers from and old pair of Shure E3C iems, that had a broken cable. Single Knowles BK-28562 driver inside. Good midrange, bass and a treble are a bit lacking, but there's only so much a single driver can do...


----------



## kiteki

piotrus-g said:


> Hmm I listened to XBA3 for a few minus and I liked the sound. I listened it from clip+ though from Samsung galaxy S it sounded very lacking


 
   
  They are sensitive to output impedance which I tested.  They sound okay and some user preferences will like their new sound, however they're not free from faults, such as phase shift which you mentioned once before.  If you value laser-like precision and natural tones, they sound like VHS tape.  Still, if you've never heard an IEM before or you can get "into their zone", then they sound ok.


----------



## NuckinFutz

wz2000 said:


> While I'm still working on my crossovers for my triple driver project, I made these:
> 
> 
> I took drivers from and old pair of Shure E3C iems, that had a broken cable. Single Knowles BK-28562 driver inside. Good midrange, bass and a treble are a bit lacking, but there's only so much a single driver can do...




Sweet! What mould material did you use?


----------



## wz2000

A silicone product called Silcoval MVE. It makes a good mould, but Its mixing ratio of adding 2% hardener is really tough to get right. So I'd suggest getting some easier silicone to work with.


----------



## NuckinFutz

wz2000 said:


> A silicone product called Silcoval MVE. It makes a good mould, but Its mixing ratio of adding 2% hardener is really tough to get right. So I'd suggest getting some easier silicone to work with.




When I was looking into this a silicone mould made more sense to me, gotta be more comfortable! Are they a hollow shell, if so is this hard to do with silicone?


----------



## wz2000

Quote: 





nuckinfutz said:


> When I was looking into this a silicone mould made more sense to me, gotta be more comfortable! Are they a hollow shell, if so is this hard to do with silicone?


 
   
  Oh, I thought you meant the negative mould material, which is this:
   

   
   
  The shell i made from an epoxy called cold glaze. First I made a solid shell and hollowed it out with a dremel. Subsequent shells I cast hollow by using a "plug" made from a hot glue impression from the first shell. Like this:
   

   
   
  Maybe the same method could be used  for casting hollow silicone shell as well. The problem would be sealing the shells afterward, as virtually nothing sticks to silicone, except maybe other silicone. You could try casting the shell with the drivers inside, if using silicone. Even though my epoxy shells are a hard material, I find them quite comfortable. I was positively surprised.


----------



## NuckinFutz

wz2000 said:


> Maybe the same method could be used  for casting hollow silicone shell as well. The problem would be sealing the shells afterward, as virtually nothing sticks to silicone, except maybe other silicone. You could try casting the shell with the drivers inside, if using silicone. Even though my epoxy shells are a hard material, I find them quite comfortable. I was positively surprised.




Great, thanks for the info! 

I did see a video on Youtube of how UE or Westone (can't remember which) make their customs and they mentioned a mixed casting with Silicone tips and acrylic body.....essentially best of both worlds. I was thinking just casting them solid with the drivers in place would be ideal but difficult...and a pain in the butt if it goes wrong!


----------



## tony-pro

What did you make that casting mold from? I have now tried 2 things that did not work. Candle wax, and a pourable latex called  "mold builder." both ended up pulling away from the impression. the the latex mold builder was not it says you're supposed to paint on the mold one layer at a time until it gets built out.
   
  Quote: 





wz2000 said:


> Oh, I thought you meant the negative mould material, which is this:


----------



## MuZo2

tony-pro said:


> What did you make that casting mold from?


 
   
  The answer is just few post above.
   
  Quote: 





wz2000 said:


> A silicone product called Silcoval MVE. It makes a good mould, but Its mixing ratio of adding 2% hardener is really tough to get right. So I'd suggest getting some easier silicone to work with.


----------



## piotrus-g

judging from the materials that has been used across this thread someone's going to get hurt finally. Don't use materials that are not compatibile with ISO 10993.
   
  I know that making your own IEMs is tempting but remeber - safety first.


----------



## wz2000

Quote: 





nuckinfutz said:


> Great, thanks for the info!
> I did see a video on Youtube of how UE or Westone (can't remember which) make their customs and they mentioned a mixed casting with Silicone tips and acrylic body.....essentially best of both worlds. I was thinking just casting them solid with the drivers in place would be ideal but difficult...and a pain in the butt if it goes wrong!


 
   
  If you cast the shells from silicone, it shouldn't be too hard to cut them open if something goes wrong. Not so with epoxy or acrylic.
   
  Quote: 





piotrus-g said:


> judging from the materials that has been used across this thread someone's going to get hurt finally. Don't use materials that are not compatibile with ISO 10993.
> 
> I know that making your own IEMs is tempting but remeber - safety first.


 
   
  Most of these casting and mould materials are toxic when still uncured(especially the hardeners), but should be chemically inert once fully cured. Doesn't hurt to be careful though.


----------



## edba2000

I am looking for a crossover design for my next project.
  The drivers will be:
   
  one *CI-22955* and one *ED-29689*.
   
  Since the famous Etymotic ER-4s is using a single ED-29680 and the reviews are great,
  I am thinking on adding a CI-22955 to compensate the known lack of bass.
   
  Sugestions for the crossover and the filters are welcome!


----------



## LaaG

Quote: 





kiteki said:


> I don't think the Sony XBA's have acoustic dampers, they diaphragm is specifically tuned to a different frequency in each driver.  Either way, they don't suffice, I can't listen to the XBA-3 or XBA-4 for more than 30 minutes, I can't stand them.


 
   
  I don't see whats wrong with acoustic dampers. Ultimate Ears use them in almost all, if not all their custom IEMs to shape the sound. Other custom IEMs just have a capacitor or resistor just for the sake of having a "passive crossover" for marketing as well.


----------



## kiteki

Overlapping frequencies doesn't seem like a desirable feature, and the Sony XBA has very hazy imaging / layering compared to a precision IEM like the UE700 or CK10, IME.


----------



## qusp

Quote: 





laag said:


> I don't see whats wrong with acoustic dampers. Ultimate Ears use them in almost all, if not all their custom IEMs to shape the sound. Other custom IEMs just have a capacitor or resistor just for the sake of having a "passive crossover" for marketing as well.


 

 just like acoustic waveguides with speakers, they really arent enough all on their own. they are good for keeping the passive components in the XO to a minimum, but they cannot replace the XO entirely. for starters if the tweeter is sent the full signal including bass that is out of its operating range, you will kill the tweeter. there is nothing wrong with using them as a tool, but they simply cannot do the full job in a multidriver IEM, they can be used to filter the output frequencies, but they cannot filter the distortion and or damage caused by sending them audio and power outside of their SOA


----------



## qusp

Quote: 





wz2000 said:


> Oh, I thought you meant the negative mould material, which is this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  some people are allergic to epoxy and it generally isnt considered safe to use internally


----------



## tranhieu

Quote: 





qusp said:


> just like acoustic waveguides with speakers, they really arent enough all on their own. they are good for keeping the passive components in the XO to a minimum, but they cannot replace the XO entirely. for starters if the tweeter is sent the full signal including bass that is out of its operating range, you will kill the tweeter. there is nothing wrong with using them as a tool, but they simply cannot do the full job in a multidriver IEM, they can be used to filter the output frequencies, but they cannot filter the distortion and or damage caused by sending them audio and power outside of their SOA


 
  One thing to note is that unlike real tweeter, BA 'tweeters' don't get hurt from being fed with low frequency signal. To put it more precisely, there exists no real tweeters in BA world, only those that are better at producing high frequencies compared to others, which are later on called 'tweeter'. They all are full range drivers in the first place.
  Anyway, you are correct about needing more than just some simple acoustics filters in a multi-casing iem (not multi-driver).


----------



## wz2000

Quote: 





qusp said:


> some people are allergic to epoxy and it generally isnt considered safe to use internally


 
   
  Well, the epoxy I'm using is intended mainly for making jewelry, so a prolonged skin contact has likely been taken into account. Also the product description says its food safe. Allergies are a different matter of course, but people can be allergic to almost anything, so no product can be completely safe for everyone.


----------



## kiteki

> Originally Posted by *tranhieu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> One thing to note is that unlike real tweeter, BA 'tweeters' don't get hurt from being fed with low frequency signal. To put it more precisely, there exists no real tweeters in BA world, only those that are better at producing high frequencies compared to others, which are later on called 'tweeter'. They all are full range drivers in the first place.
> Anyway, you are correct about needing more than just some simple acoustics filters in a multi-casing iem (not multi-driver).


 
   
  The Sony XBA's do indeed have a tweeter in the -3 and -4 models as you can see in this image - http://www.sony-asia.com/product/resources/en_AP/images/Overview/PA/headphones/XBA/img-multiplexing-1.gif
   
  For some reason it feels like the XBA-4 has more treble presence, contrary to those pictures.
   
  You're right typical BA's are not 'natural tweeters', I tried to convince UM to make an ED-29689 (bass) and TWFK (treble) CIEM for me and they said that won't sound good since there's better drivers for bass.  I don't care, I want my CK10<->ER-4S hybrid.


----------



## tranhieu

Quote: 





kiteki said:


> The Sony XBA's do indeed have a tweeter in the -3 and -4 models as you can see in this image - http://www.sony-asia.com/product/resources/en_AP/images/Overview/PA/headphones/XBA/img-multiplexing-1.gif
> 
> For some reason it feels like the XBA-4 has more treble presence, contrary to those pictures.
> 
> You're right typical BA's are not 'natural tweeters', I tried to convince UM to make an ED-29689 (bass) and TWFK (treble) CIEM for me and they said that won't sound good since there's better drivers for bass.  I don't care, I want my CK10<->ER-4S hybrid.


 
  ok my bad, I should have made it clearer: there exists no real tweeter in BA world whose technical documents are available to the market.


----------



## edba2000

Quote: 





edba2000 said:


> I am looking for a crossover design for my next project.
> The drivers will be:
> 
> one *CI-22955* and one *ED-29689*.
> ...


 
  After some research I have made this sketch:
   

   
  GREY damper to attenuate some of the the highs and the RED for cutting most of the high frequencies on the CI.
   
  Any opinions?


----------



## tsn141

Quote: 





edba2000 said:


> After some research I have made this sketch:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Very logical but tube lenght and damper positions maybe important.22 ohm can be lesser.I can give you a prediction;you will get huge depth in sound stage due to phase differance on these drivers.
 (I get this by using sonion 2323 and 2015 combination without caps.sound come from far away.I causes due to large phase differance on 2323 and 2015)(I can see these on LTspice graph.


----------



## edba2000

tsn141. thanks for sharing your experience! 
  So.... should I forget the CI or the ED?
  What is the alternative?


----------



## tsn141

Another point,I can not undertood clearly the disscusion which mentined above.
 However,I can say that about filters and XO's:
 I main aim is not providing a good graph,the aim is achieve good sound.For example you can get there is good bass on SPL graphs,but if there is highly resonant peak your bass is boomy and not textured.you can dapmer these resonant peaks by using both filters or resistor on XO or long tubes etc.
 The SPL graphs per driver is not realistic on SONY provided.Because,the bass drivers take on most of the spectrum.


----------



## tsn141

Quote: 





edba2000 said:


> tsn141. thanks for sharing your experience!
> So.... should I forget the CI or the ED?
> What is the alternative?


 

 Sorry,I saw your post now.
 The ED equvalent of 2300 series of sonion,CI is equvalent of 2000 series.
 It is my guess.

 I tried some experiments with 2323 and 2015.When I used 2015 with green damper and 2323 with white damper and
 2015 used directly 2323 used XO and a experimentaly a resistor.As my experinces the most important part is 500 hz and 6k region.I share a document previous pages.Which band causes what.It is good key for improving sound.


----------



## kiteki

Quick question, anyone know which drivers the Audeo PFE232 is using?  I can demo it whenever I like, and it doesn't sound like it's using any driver I've heard before.
   
  I know AlienEars use Sonion drivers, and offer cheap CIEM's, even if not on the PFE232 level, I'd love a dual-driver from them using the same Sonion's, if this is the case!


----------



## tsn141

Quote: 





kiteki said:


> Quick question, anyone know which drivers the Audeo PFE232 is using?  I can demo it whenever I like, and it doesn't sound like it's using any driver I've heard before.
> 
> I know AlienEars use Sonion drivers, and offer cheap CIEM's, even if not on the PFE232 level, I'd love a dual-driver from them using the same Sonion's, if this is the case!


 

 As I mentioned many times,key point is tuning of drivers.Also UE uses sonion drivers.(custom made)


----------



## kiteki

tsn141 said:


> As I mentioned many times,key point is tuning of drivers.Also UE uses sonion drivers.(custom made)


 
   
  So?  You need to know which driver to tune, hence why I'm asking.  You can't 100% turn driver X into driver Z with any tuning, no matter how hard you try.


----------



## tsn141

Quote: 





kiteki said:


> So?  You need to know which driver to tune, hence why I'm asking.  You can't 100% turn driver X into driver Z with any tuning, no matter how hard you try.


 

 As I understant from tuning is deciding XO values and sound tube parameters.For example :you can get bassy IEM with Er-4 drivers.
 For quality aspect:
 The sound stage feeling is a distortion,also warmth is a distortion.boomy bass is a resonance at low freqs.The key point how much add which distortion and how much add which resonance.


----------



## kiteki

tsn141 said:


> As I understant from tuning is deciding XO values and sound tube parameters.For example :you can get bassy IEM with Er-4 drivers.
> For quality aspect:
> The sound stage feeling is a distortion,also warmth is a distortion.boomy bass is a resonance at low freqs.The key point how much add which distortion and how much add which resonance.


 
   
  You can call it distortion if you want, but only two specific BA drivers can acheive that distortion, none other, so I need to know what they are, or it'll be impossible to make that sound, that's it.


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote: 





kiteki said:


> Quick question, anyone know which drivers the Audeo PFE232 is using?  I can demo it whenever I like, and it doesn't sound like it's using any driver I've heard before.
> 
> I know AlienEars use Sonion drivers, and offer cheap CIEM's, even if not on the PFE232 level, I'd love a dual-driver from them using the same Sonion's, if this is the case!


 
  They are using custom made drivers 2300 series from Sonion. It dosn't metter which number you have after 23, because you won't find that driver in retail


----------



## kiteki

> Originally Posted by *piotrus-g* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> They are using custom made drivers 2300 series from Sonion. It dosn't metter which number you have after 23, because you won't find that driver in retail


 
   
  Thanx.  What do you mean not in retail?  I'll just ask AE if they can use that model number for me.


----------



## tsn141

Quote: 





kiteki said:


> You can call it distortion if you want, but only two specific BA drivers can acheive that distortion, none other, so I need to know what they are, or it'll be impossible to make that sound, that's it.


 

 you can achieve these distortions with unmatched phase ,or changing filter position , tube lenght etc.
  An interesting point drivers produce very low distortion after tuning distortion occur.Other characteristics can be achived by using resonance points.


----------



## kiteki

tsn141 said:


> > Originally Posted by *kiteki* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> >
> > So?  You need to know which driver to tune, hence why I'm asking.  You can't 100% turn driver X into driver Z with any tuning, no matter how hard you try.
> 
> ...


 
   


tsn141 said:


> you can achieve these distortions with unmatched phase ,or changing filter position , tube lenght etc.
> An interesting point drivers produce very low distortion after tuning distortion occur.Other characteristics can be achived by using resonance points.


 
   
  I'm not following why you're calling it distortion.  Do you mean THD+N and IMD or just distortion as in not real life?
   
  The JVC micro driver IEM's like FXC71 have no tube length, the driver is in the tip, they have pretty decent soundstage / imaging.  In the Sony EX600 the driver is far away, and tilted 90 degrees, this gives enhanced soundstage almost like a headphone, however lacks inner sphere, etc.


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote: 





kiteki said:


> Thanx.  What do you mean not in retail?  I'll just ask AE if they can use that model number for me.


 
  Not in regular sale. You couldn't just ask Sonion "please send me 1 audeo driver". You can buy driver from 2300 instead to fully match to your design
   
   
  Quote: 





> The JVC micro driver IEM's like FXC71 have no tube length, the driver is in the tip, they have pretty decent soundstage / imaging.  In the Sony EX600 the driver is far away, and tilted 90 degrees, this gives enhanced soundstage almost like a headphone, however lacks inner sphere, etc.


 
  Those are dynamic, we are talking balanced armature here  Soundstage is created mostly in the driver and depends mailny on the back volume of a diaphragm, then it's shaped by dampers. In dual driver or more configuration soundstage can be influenced by phase shifts


----------



## LaaG

Update:
   
  Look what came all the way from the States 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   

   
  TWFK + CI22955 + Filters. The TWFK is ****** Tiny.
   
   
   
  Also been trying to perfect making some shells. Not quite the standard I wanted.
   

   
   
  I was searching through alibaba and found this:
   
http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/537442587/Molding_UV_resin_for_manufacturing_precise.html
   
  I've contacted the supplier and reached a deal, a 250ml bottle is 35USD + 25USD Shipping totaling 60USD or £38 which isn't bad.
  I'll report back when this stuff arrives. Apparently, this stuff is new from the supplier.


----------



## NuckinFutz

Cool, but how are you intending to cure that resin?


----------



## LaaG

Quote: 





nuckinfutz said:


> Cool, but how are you intending to cure that resin?


 
   
  It's dead simple. Just use a 365nm UV light source. I've got a torch I used to repair a windscreen chip with, that cured the resin perfect.
   
  If all else fails, my sister has a UV lamp she does her nails with.


----------



## MuZo2

Its not simple as it looks, first you have to create negative mould from clear material and then the UV resin should cure from outside in. So just a lamp source wont do, also the machine for nails wont be sufficient to do the job.


----------



## kiteki

This is cool, the UV resin.  Install UV lights in your room, show them off.


----------



## NuckinFutz

laag said:


> It's dead simple. Just use a 365nm UV light source. I've got a torch I used to repair a windscreen chip with, that cured the resin perfect.
> 
> If all else fails, my sister has a UV lamp she does her nails with.




Don't you need to keep the mould rotating to get a shell though? If the lamp isn't strong enough this could take some time!


----------



## SDG1855

Best.... Thread... Ever.


----------



## tomscy2000

I've been really curious about the Sonion 17A007/9 in a woofer application; THD figures look decent.


----------



## MuZo2

Sonion info on drivers for IEM


  ? Popular Broad Band Receivers:
  – 1700 good broad band, sufficient headroom, limited HF
  – 2300 good broad band, widest response
  – 2600 best sounding broad band with small size but limited headroom
  – 3200 good trade off between accuracy and output
  ? Popular Woofers
  – 2000 excellent PA sounding woofer (think single 18”)
  – 3300 excellent PA sounding woofer (think dual 15” drivers)
  – 3100 nice trade off in size and performance smallest receiver that works well as a
  true woofer (sounds similar to a single 12”)
  ? Popular Tweeters
  – 2300 industry standard tweeter
  – 2600 offers nice trade off in size and performance. Would work well with woofer
  and very low crossover frequency (125 Hz or so)


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote: 





tomscy2000 said:


> I've been really curious about the Sonion 17A007/9 in a woofer application; THD figures look decent.


 

 According to Sonion representatives 1700 is really good woofer.


----------



## tomscy2000

Quote: 





piotrus-g said:


> According to Sonion representatives 1700 is really good woofer.


 
   
  Yeah, the FR curve up to 1 kHz looks ideal for a woofer. Sonion's positioning the 7/9 variant as their ideal IEM woofer, and they say the back volume is internally vented, as well as an inductive coil (I thought coils introduced distortion, though?).


----------



## MuZo2

Any tips on matching the sensitivity of two drivers ?


----------



## wz2000

You can use an L-pad to drop the sensitivity of a driver. It's basically just a voltage divider made from two resitors.
   
  L-pad calculator:
  http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-Lpad.htm


----------



## MuZo2

yes have read about it but not sure if you can use it between 2BA drivers.


----------



## wz2000

Why not? Voltage controls the amplitude with BAs, just like with dynamic drivers. L-pad drops the voltage going to the driver. It functions just like the high/low pass filters, but it has a fixed value across all frequencies.


----------



## Fredrichs

I have a CI-22955 in a diy universal for testing purposes, which sounds surprisingly good by it self, but I was also wanting to add a ED-29689 for better mids and highs. I was wondering what recommendations anyone would have on what dampers to use as well as if I should add any resisters.


----------



## wz2000

Red dampers seem to be the popular choice with the CI-22955. I have the driver aswell, but haven't got around to experiment with it yet. Maybe adding a resistor in series, somewhere in the 10-30 ohm range perhaps. It would drop the output by a few dB.
   
  Also, since alot of people here use the TWFK, what do you do about the rear port? I was just testing a FED-30048, and having the rear port open made the sound really thin and shrill. Closing it with a piece of electrical tape made the sound so much better.
  TWFK has the port aswell, so maybe it could make a substantial difference.


----------



## edba2000

Quote: 





fredrichs said:


> I have a CI-22955 in a diy universal for testing purposes, which sounds surprisingly good by it self, but I was also wanting to add a ED-29689 for better mids and highs. I was wondering what recommendations anyone would have on what dampers to use as well as if I should add any resisters.


 
  Check the post #1326. It seems that the ED can't be added to the CI.


----------



## wz2000

I'm sure they could be used together. While the CI might have an opposite phase, you can always reverse the wiring on one of the drivers to correct this.


----------



## Fredrichs

Thank you for the info. I think I'm going to go ahead any get the ED and see how it turns out. Also apparently the Unique Melody Aero us the CI and the ED so it may work. I would go with the TWFK but the ED is much cheaper.


----------



## edba2000

Is there any website with the detailed pinout of the TWFK?
  It seems that the 2 ground pins are connected.. is this true?
   

   
  If this is true, with only 3 connections, the wires inside the shell are easy to accommodate.


----------



## wz2000

Yes, you are correct. The negative terminals are connected and you only need three wires. You can verify this with a multimeter if you have the driver.  I agree that the datasheet could be a bit more clear on this.


----------



## broww

have been checking out this thread since last year... read that someone mentioned loctite 3321 is a safe bet for shell and i found this on ebay http://www.ebay.com/itm/Loctite-Medical-/140685694030?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&var=&hash=item20c185544e so hopefully it helps someone out there..


----------



## broww

Anyway does anyone happen to know where did UM source its dynamic driver for Merlin? Will be excellent if a dynamic driver could replace the BAs... --> less tuning and no crossovers? Or maybe just act as a woofer i.e. do a Merlin or superfi. 5 EB (which is difficult).


----------



## edba2000

Here is my recent project: CI+TWFK
   

   


   
  great sound!!!! (wood isn't finished, yet)


----------



## wz2000

Looks good! I thought about using wood aswell, haven't got around to trying yet. I did my covers with polymorph(pretty much the same as shapelock).
   
  Judging from the pics, you didn't use any cap on the tweeter of the TWFK?


----------



## broww

Quote: 





edba2000 said:


> Here is my recent project: CI+TWFK
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Wow edba2000, impressive to say the least! (as do many others here for their effort). Does the placement of the drivers (angle, distance from opening) within the shell matter? And what method do you use to fix your drivers into position within the shell so that they do not move?


----------



## edba2000

Quote: 





wz2000 said:


> Looks good! I thought about using wood aswell, haven't got around to trying yet. I did my covers with polymorph(pretty much the same as shapelock).
> 
> Judging from the pics, you didn't use any cap on the tweeter of the TWFK?


 
  Yes, that's it - no crossover. The red filter is cutting the highs and the grey is optional. I have made a test without the grey but the highs are too harsh. (Others are using a white filter with the TWFK).


----------



## Greenbeast

are the covers removable?
   
  I'm wondering because you can get some pretty small countersunk screws, it'd be great to get back into the shell again


----------



## NuckinFutz

edba2000 said:


> Here is my recent project: CI+TWFK




Very impressive my friend!


----------



## edba2000

Quote: 





broww said:


> Wow edba2000, impressive to say the least! (as do many others here for their effort). Does the placement of the drivers (angle, distance from opening) within the shell matter? And what method do you use to fix your drivers into position within the shell so that they do not move?


 
  I don't think the angle of the drivers inside the shell really matter. The only important factor is the length of the acoustic tube. So, the distance from the opening is important. For the TWFK, the length should be the smallest as possible and for the CI (woofer), mainly because of the driver's size, the length can be bigger.
   
  The drivers are fixed with glue.


----------



## MuZo2

Yes, smaller tube length and bigger tube diameter helps higher frequencies and other way round for woofer or lower frequencies , ie smaller tube diameter and larger tube length.As the sleeves/case are mostly hollow the drivers are directly attached on tubes and hold the drivers in place.
   
  edba2000 how is the sound characterestic? because you didnot use any crossover how does the iem behave on complex tracs. Did you notice any phase shifts or overlapping of frequencies?


----------



## edba2000

Quote: 





muzo2 said:


> Yes, smaller tube length and bigger tube diameter helps higher frequencies and other way round for woofer or lower frequencies , ie smaller tube diameter and larger tube length.As the sleeves/case are mostly hollow the drivers are directly attached on tubes and hold the drivers in place.
> 
> edba2000 how is the sound characterestic? because you didnot use any crossover how does the iem behave on complex tracs. Did you notice any phase shifts or overlapping of frequencies?


 
   
  All I can say is that the first listening test was disappointing!! 
   
  Now, after some "burn in" hours they are much better. I hope to get even better SQ after 50 hours...
   
  The sound is very balanced. The bass is not exaggerated, the amount is enough and very well defined (but clearly not for bassheads). Mids are enjoyable and the best of this design (IMHO). As you can see, I have used a grey filter, I think it's enough to cut some of the Mids/Highs. I still need to find some more tracks with interesting highs, to compare with my Beyerdynamic DT 880.
   
  About the complex tracks: I need some more time to test some "Dave Matthews Band" tracks. Do you want me to test some specific track?


----------



## edba2000

Quote: 





greenbeast said:


> are the covers removable?
> 
> I'm wondering because you can get some pretty small countersunk screws, it'd be great to get back into the shell again


 
  No, the covers are not removable. It is quite easy to cut the glue between the wood and the shell.


----------



## wz2000

Here is my version for your perusal. Triple driver, a TWFK with an ED-23147:
   

   
   
  I went for the crossover route. I have a cap on the tweeter of the TWFK and a 2nd order lowpass filter on the ED-23147 woofer. Also a brown filter on the TWFK. Here's the schematic of the thing:


----------



## edba2000

Just an idea...
   
  We could start a small database with IEMs designs specifications. It could include the electric schematic, shell materials, some pictures, sound characteristics, comercial IEMs equivalents, ...
  I have been reading this thread almost since the begining and the it was not easy to start a DIY project. The information is not organized!


----------



## Greenbeast

Quote: 





edba2000 said:


> Just an idea...
> 
> We could start a small database with IEMs designs specifications. It could include the electric schematic, shell materials, some pictures, sound characteristics, comercial IEMs equivalents, ...
> I have been reading this thread almost since the begining and the it was not easy to start a DIY project. The information is not organized!


 
  that would be great, i am just embarking on this journey and you're right, the information is very dispersed regarding what people have accomplished and it what way.


----------



## broww

Thanks for the reply MuZo2 and edba2000. This is seriously one of the most amazing thread so far.


----------



## NuckinFutz

wz2000 said:


> Here is my version for your perusal. Triple driver, a TWFK with an ED-23147:




I swear you could sell them, no one would know you made them  Great job


----------



## MuZo2

I will post pictures of my hybrid ciem in day or two. twfk + ie8


----------



## MuZo2

After three weeks of listening and tweaking and three iterations this is final and works quiet well. TWFK for highs and mids and ie8 for bass.
  It has recessed sound tubes to prevent wax from entering the sound tubes, on face plate there is bass port for IE8. I have used mmcx female plug on shell and right angled male on cable.


----------



## NuckinFutz

muzo2 said:


> Sorry for blurry images , they are from my camera.
> After three weeks of listening and tweaking and three iterations this is final and works quiet well. TWFK for highs and mids and ie8 for bass.
> It has recessed sound tubes to prevent wax from entering the sound tubes, on face plate there is bass port for IE8. I have used mmcx female plug on shell and right angled male on cable.




They are quite something Muzo! Some amazing efforts coming out of this thread....wish I had more time!!


----------



## MuZo2

Updated pictures from my last post.


----------



## Fredrichs

MuZo2, what material did you use for your shell material? So far, my only problem is finding a shell material that's not exceedingly hard to work with. I've tried acrylic/monomer mix and but it sets too quickly. Do you have any suggestions?


----------



## ulogin

Quote: 





edba2000 said:


> I don't think the angle of the drivers inside the shell really matter.


 
   
  Sorry for the noob question: I always thought that the advantages of custom is that they are "tuned" for individual ear (via driver placement, driver angle, etc.), which I thought was important because each ear is different anatomically. And I read that JH Audio "tune" each ear piece individually. Indeed, their Youtube shows how they use some computer software to do the fine-tuning. 
   
  So if the angle of the drivers does not matter, what is the advantage of going custom? I have been thinking of going custom (not home-made, though) but am not sure if there's real benefit besides comfort and fit.


----------



## Greenbeast

I'd like some info on how people are creating their negative molds and finished iem shells?
   
  I guess the negative from an impression needs to be a soft flexible material (latex?) so as to let the impression and any subsequent hard shells out.
  Are people then filling the negative void with their shell material and drilling out afterwards?
  Or somehow creating a hollow shell?
  Or embedding the drivers/tubes in the negative void before filling?
   
  Hints and tips much appreciated.


----------



## edba2000

Quote: 





ulogin said:


> Sorry for the noob question: I always thought that the advantages of custom is that they are "tuned" for individual ear (via driver placement, driver angle, etc.), which I thought was important because each ear is different anatomically. And I read that JH Audio "tune" each ear piece individually. Indeed, their Youtube shows how they use some computer software to do the fine-tuning.
> 
> So if the angle of the drivers does not matter, what is the advantage of going custom? I have been thinking of going custom (not home-made, though) but am not sure if there's real benefit besides comfort and fit.


 
   
  The shape of the tubes and the endings are almost the same in every ear canals. The most personal part is the ear part. The tube endings are always parallel to the ear canal. I can't see how a "fine tuning"can improve the final result!
  During my tests, I have rotated the drivers and the sound was always the same. The important it's to get the lowest tube lengths (mainly for the mids/highs)


----------



## MuZo2

More details 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/616728/ciem-digital-manufacturing-hybrid-iem
 More pictures added of process
http://www.head-fi.org/gallery/album/view/id/661417/user_id/274175


----------



## Greenbeast

I'd love more details of your shell making process.
   
  I've read through this thread 2+ times but there's a lot to absorb and i might have missed your process


----------



## wz2000

Quote: 





greenbeast said:


> I'd like some info on how people are creating their negative molds and finished iem shells?
> 
> I guess the negative from an impression needs to be a soft flexible material (latex?) so as to let the impression and any subsequent hard shells out.
> Are people then filling the negative void with their shell material and drilling out afterwards?
> ...


 
   
  There are several types of soft silicone mould material you can use. Try looking at craft hobby stores.
  I first cast solid shells and drilled them out. It's labour intensive, so casting hollow shell would be preferrable. I accomplished that by filling the hollowed shell with hot glue and placing the resulting "plug" into my moulds to cast hollow shells afterwards.
   
  What you can do really depends on the shell material. Fast curing resins might be cast while rotating the mould, so it would form a thin layer on the sides of the mould, creating a hollow shell. I haven't done this, maybe others can share their experience.
   
   
  Quote: 





muzo2 said:


> More details
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/616728/ciem-digital-manufacturing-hybrid-iem
> More pictures added of process
> http://www.head-fi.org/gallery/album/view/id/661417/user_id/274175


   
   
  Really professional looking product. Nice job!


----------



## Greenbeast

Quote: 





wz2000 said:


> There are several types of soft silicone mould material you can use. Try looking at craft hobby stores.
> I first cast solid shells and drilled them out. It's labour intensive, so casting hollow shell would be preferrable. I accomplished that by filling the hollowed shell with hot glue and placing the resulting "plug" into my moulds to cast hollow shells afterwards.
> 
> What you can do really depends on the shell material. Fast curing resins might be cast while rotating the mould, so it would form a thin layer on the sides of the mould, creating a hollow shell. I haven't done this, maybe others can share their experience.


 
  Thankyou
  I'm definitely keen not to ruin my professional impressions as i don't want to spend out on those again once done. So i don't want something that will adhere to the (i'm guessing) delicate impressions and then tearing them apart on removal.
   
  I have polyester casting resin in my workshop already so i think i will use that for the actual iem shell.


----------



## edba2000

About the TWFK : Is it really the best tweeter available?
   
  The highs on my DT880 are clearly better. The definition is superior. With the TWFK, some cymbals (from drums) seem distorted! 
  Comments?


----------



## wz2000

Well, the TWFK seems to have to most pronounced highs of the knowles drivers. Whether thats a good thing is a matter of taste. My suggestion: experiment with the rear port on the TWFK. It has to be completely isolated from your ear canal, otherwise you'll get a very harsh sound in my experience.
   
  I also own the DT880 'phones. Really fantastic, they are. I doubt iems can be made to sound quite as good.


----------



## ulogin

Quote: 





edba2000 said:


> The shape of the tubes and the endings are almost the same in every ear canals. The most personal part is the ear part. The tube endings are always parallel to the ear canal. I can't see how a "fine tuning"can improve the final result!
> During my tests, I have rotated the drivers and the sound was always the same. The important it's to get the lowest tube lengths (mainly for the mids/highs)


 
   
  So what JH Audio shows on YouTube about fine-tuning is simply marketing, which also means that custom does not offer anything on top of universal (besides comfort)?


----------



## edba2000

Quote: 





ulogin said:


> So what JH Audio shows on YouTube about fine-tuning is simply marketing, which also means that custom does not offer anything on top of universal (besides comfort)?


 
   
  From my experience the customs offer:
   
  - Comfort (you can run and jump with your IEMs)
  - Isolation (the outside noise is filtered)
  - Protection (if you are in front of a really powerful audio speaker, the IEMs can protect your ears)
  - Great sound quality (depending of the drivers/design)
   
  Check the price of the Knowles/Sonion drivers!! Most of the $$$ you pay for the IEMs are for the hours of work spent with the shells, soldering, testing...


----------



## Tyreso

Wow, some great work been done on here, I also made some homemade ciems and was fairly happy with the result, it was a few years ago though.

I see the biggest challenge is still producing the shells, that is exactly the issue I encountered and realise that it was very difficult if not impossible to create some quality shells without all the fit equipment which ends up being costly. I eventually managed to find one of the commercial ciem manufacturers to produce just the shells for me including sending an impression kit. They were really good and helpful and the price for just shells and impression kit was pretty good.

Not sure if they still do this service because it would damage business for other guys and themselves but if anyone is interested send me a pm and I will give give you more details, contact info etc.


----------



## MuZo2

Quote: 





ulogin said:


> So what JH Audio shows on YouTube about fine-tuning is simply marketing, which also means that custom does not offer anything on top of universal (besides comfort)?


 
  No its not marketing gimmick. There is quiet a bit of science in how driver placement inside ear canal affects the sound characteristics.
  here is a link which explains better.
http://rinchoi.blogspot.de/2010/05/how-deep-do-you-insert-you-er4.html


----------



## ulogin

muzo2 said:


> No its not marketing gimmick. There is quiet a bit of science in how driver placement inside ear canal affects the sound characteristics.
> here is a link which explains better.
> http://rinchoi.blogspot.de/2010/05/how-deep-do-you-insert-you-er4.html




True, but what the author is saying is that driver placement (insertion depth), when done badly, can harm SQ. That's why he said that acs tips had negative effects on the intended sound of er4. He never wanted any positive effects from the tips.

Indeed, I just spoke to the author of this piece. He told me that he was not convinced that custom has any advantages on top of universal sq-wise.


----------



## ulogin

muzo2 said:


> No its not marketing gimmick. There is quiet a bit of science in how driver placement inside ear canal affects the sound characteristics.
> here is a link which explains better.
> http://rinchoi.blogspot.de/2010/05/how-deep-do-you-insert-you-er4.html




And if you believe in driver placement, would you mind sharing what you did exactly to decide how to place drivers in your own CIEM?


----------



## MuZo2

Quote: 





ulogin said:


> He told me that he was not convinced that custom has any advantages on top of universal sq-wise.


 
   

  If with a universal iem combined with a proper tip, you get proper fit seal and insertion where the tip of insert earphones reaches the reference plane (This is a plane, at right angles to the longitudinal axis of the ear canal, located at the point in the ear canal where the earmold or ear shell usually terminates (defined in the standards to be approximately 13mm from the ear drum) at which you can enjoy the reference response that the manufacturer of the earphones intended.
  Then I would say there is no advantage of custom for SQ.


----------



## ulogin

muzo2 said:


> If with a universal iem combined with a proper tip, you get proper fit seal and insertion where the tip of insert earphones reaches the reference plane (This is a plane, at right angles to the longitudinal axis of the ear canal, located at the point in the ear canal where the earmold or ear shell usually terminates (defined in the standards to be approximately 13mm from the ear drum) at which you can enjoy the reference response that the manufacturer of the earphones intended.
> Then I would say there is no advantage of custom for SQ.




Fair enough


----------



## tomscy2000

For the people who have worked with the 33A007, does anyone have its impedance plot?
   
  Also, AVX markets their Niobium caps as having low ESR (and consequently, Heir uses AVX exclusively); does that necessarily make a significant audible difference in THD over your run of the mill Tantalum? Isn't low ESR only critical for temperature sensitive applications (of which IEMs aren't really subjected to)?


----------



## wz2000

Maybe if you'll send me one driver (or ten), I'll plot the impedance for you 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
   
  I was under the impression that tantalums are worst kind of cap for audio. Why not use ceramics instead? They'll also have lower ESR for sure. I have no idea about the quality of niobium caps.


----------



## fzman

ceramics are not well-regarded, sonically, either.  film caps are the usual choice for crossovers, unless they would be too big, physically (this may be the worst phrasing for any post i have ever made).


----------



## wz2000

True, but smd film caps are rare, expensive and aren't available in very high capacitances. Hence, ceramics are used, which I believe are better than tantalums at least. There's really not much room for better caps in iems.


----------



## kiteki

How about paper in oil caps?


----------



## Greenbeast

I'll be starting to put my iems together soon, these turned up in the UK from mouser today, ordered sunday, Free FEDEX delivery  with all VAT and Duty paid 
   
  They are Knowles BK-26824, bought them because they're fairly cheap, bought 4 because i had to get over £50 for the free delivery (& duty) and it gives me a chance to finish a pair even if i ruin 2.
Bought a full set of dampers to test too


----------



## Greenbeast

Need to find some of the tubing for the drivers, in the UK ideally.
   
  It's the last thing i need, got my impression appointment booked for tomorrow.
   
  I can find this:
   http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Stay-Dri-Dry-BTE-Hearing-Aid-Tubing-X-2-/180925164884?pt=UK_Health_Beauty_Mobility_Disability_Medical_ET&hash=item2a1ffaed54#ht_500wt_1236
   
   
  Or this:
http://www.sensorcom.com/product.asp?P_ID=1071&strPageHistory=related
   
  But not sure if either are the same thing others are using.


----------



## broww

Opened up my ue superfi 5 eb as I constantly find the RHS has lesser bass and suspect its due to seal issue. Turns out the sound tube is indeed broken and has leakage. Hope this picture will help someone in one way or another. Red colour damper in the tube and model of high freq driver is UE HIe 0749. Cap has something like 225 20K and 1105 or 005 on it.
  
  Additional info: internal diameter of sound tube is approx 1.5mm


----------



## wz2000

Quote: 





greenbeast said:


> Need to find some of the tubing for the drivers, in the UK ideally.
> 
> It's the last thing i need, got my impression appointment booked for tomorrow.
> 
> ...


 
   
  I'm using the sensorcom tubing. Seems to work well enough.


----------



## Greenbeast

excellent, thanks very much!


----------



## LaaG

I've also used hearing aid tube on mine. Works very well. Forgot which one I used but it was the thick type.


----------



## Greenbeast

Finally got my impressions done.
   

   
   
  Will start mold making this weekend


----------



## Mython

Did you do those yourself? They look basically OK, but they don't look like they went very deep into the ear canal (i.e. not as far as the '2nd bend')


----------



## Greenbeast

No, an audiologist did them. He said they were reasonably deep, perhaps 'reasonably' isn't as far as the second bend, perhaps the photo doesn't show them right.

Hope they'll be ok, really can't afford to go again


----------



## tranhieu

they look deep enough to me (already past 2nd bend), if you post them for shell making the lab will just cut the tip off if they are too long. About 1cm beyond the 2nd bend is enough to provide some kind of 'holding' for the iem, any longer won't improve the isolation while becoming uncomfortable at the same time.


----------



## Greenbeast

Thanks for reassuring me a little. I'll be diying the shells (i hope!)


----------



## MuZo2




----------



## Sonify

Great thread ... Subbed


----------



## cogsand gears

A lot of very interesting DIY on this thread. I look forward to more photos!


----------



## Archwn

Quote: 





ulogin said:


> Sorry for the noob question: I always thought that the advantages of custom is that they are "tuned" for individual ear (via driver placement, driver angle, etc.), which I thought was important because each ear is different anatomically. And I read that JH Audio "tune" each ear piece individually. Indeed, their Youtube shows how they use some computer software to do the fine-tuning.
> 
> So if the angle of the drivers does not matter, what is the advantage of going custom? I have been thinking of going custom (not home-made, though) but am not sure if there's real benefit besides comfort and fit.


 
  you get perfect seal / fit / comfort / sound. fine-tuning the drivers include the duct size, length & shapes / filters / crossovers / attenuation levels.


----------



## audiofreakie

(ask)
   
  I have a pair of UE TF10, and in project of making Universal custom iem with resin (like fit ear to go series)
   
  i need option for additional driver for the mid.
   
  1. if I buy the armature driver what is the best for the mid?
  2. if I must use existing iem (ex Etymotic ER P, Shure, etc), which iem that is good to use?
  3. it is possible to use additional dynamic driver as a mid driver?
  4. the last question, can people in here help me with the crossover wiring for the mid with existing UE TF10 crossover?
   
  thanks....


----------



## Nixon

Think I might finally have to take the dive and start a pair of these. Going to start with a basic one driver pair using a CI-22955 in each bud. 
   
  Looking at using this polycast silicon for the moulds http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Polycraft-GP-3481-F-RTV-Silicone-Mould-Making-Rubber-275g-Kit-Shore-A27-/220865241811?pt=UK_Crafts_Other_Crafts_EH&hash=item336c9822d3#ht_1303wt_725
   
  Still can't decide on what to make the enclosures out of. Thinking of using the dental acrylic resin edba2000 used. Seems to work and should be safe enough to shove in my ears if its made to go in peoples mouths. Anyone else got any better suggestions?


----------



## Greenbeast

Nixon - that is the silicone i just used for my mould, worked a treat and the 275g pack seems to be about right. 

For shell material I've gone with some water-clear polyester resin i had laying about, that too has worked great, I've just got to smooth off the surface (my silicone mould had bubbles) then start drilling out. 

Sent from my GT-I9000 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Nixon

I was in the Sony Store in London yesterday and noticed this display of Sony's flagship XBA4's. They claim that each driver is for a different frequency (Highs, mids, bass, super bass). Funny thing is that all four drivers look identical, there's no crossover circuitry and only one acoustic filter. Tried to get  a better shot of the drivers to try and ID them but the staff started giving me odd looks.


----------



## Tangster

Quote: 





nixon said:


> I was in the Sony Store in London yesterday and noticed this display of Sony's flagship XBA4's. They claim that each driver is for a different frequency (Highs, mids, bass, super bass). Funny thing is that all four drivers look identical, there's no crossover circuitry and only one acoustic filter. Tried to get  a better shot of the drivers to try and ID them but the staff started giving me odd looks.


 
  I read somewhere(probably head-fi) that the drivers are a custom sony model.


----------



## Mython

Quote: 





nixon said:


> I was in the Sony Store in London yesterday and noticed this display of Sony's flagship XBA4's. They claim that each driver is for a different frequency (Highs, mids, bass, super bass). Funny thing is that all four drivers look identical, there's no crossover circuitry and only one acoustic filter. Tried to get  a better shot of the drivers to try and ID them but the staff started giving me odd looks.


 
   
   
  Aye, that's Londoners for you - they're s suspicious bunch - I should know, I spent the first 15 years or so of my life there!


----------



## Mython

Quote: 





greenbeast said:


> Nixon - that is the silicone i just used for my mould, worked a treat and the 275g pack seems to be about right.
> For shell material I've gone with some water-clear polyester resin i had laying about, that too has worked great, I've just got to smooth off the surface (my silicone mould had bubbles) then start drilling out.
> Sent from my GT-I9000 using Tapatalk 2


 
   
  Greenbeast, have you _checked_ that the polyester resin you say you're using is non-toxic? Please be very careful putting polyester resin in your ears (cured, obviously!). Even cured, regular polyester resin can be toxic.
   
   
  BTW, you can remove the 'Sent from my GT-I9000 using Tapatalk 2' signature line if you look in the 'Settings' area of Tapatalk.
   
   
  All the best


----------



## Nixon

Quote: 





edba2000 said:


> Here is my recent project: CI+TWFK
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  How did you attach the acoustic tubing to the CL driver?


----------



## marozie

Haven't been keeping up with this thread, so maybe this has already been covered, but what I want to know is how you made those hollow shells!


----------



## edba2000

The shells were made with a dental material (check post #1293). I have made the mix quite liquid and rotated the material inside my silicone molds. 
  The drivers were attached to the tubes with glue (transparent general purpose glue)


----------



## Nixon

Thought that'd be the case but just wanted to check. Just need to get my impressions made and I can crack on with this.


----------



## fatman711

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned yet. But check this out:
   
  http://www.lunashops.com/goods.php?id=2254
   
  IEM shells!


----------



## Nixon

If you want to buy dampers in small quantities, it turns out that Mouser stock them http://uk.mouser.com/Electromechanical/Speakers-Transducers/_/N-wp8t?Keyword=knowles+plug&Ns=Pricing%7c0&FS=True


----------



## tomscy2000

My memory's hazy, and someone might've brought this up a while ago, but there are now Chinese-made ED-29689 clones, called the DT-10004.
   
  http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=0.0.0.87.3c6969&id=19054932590


----------



## MuZo2

http://www.head-fi.org/t/630884/fake-iems-thread#post_8760924
 Actually they are selling lot of assembly kits.


----------



## tomscy2000

Quote: 





muzo2 said:


> http://www.head-fi.org/t/630884/fake-iems-thread#post_8760924
> Actually they are selling lot of assembly kits.


 
   
  Those are probably after-hours assembly line counterfeits. As long as the drivers are still real, there shouldn't be any real problem with them, except that Shure isn't making any money off them... LOL
   
  This "DT-10004" driver is like a cheap third-party competitor, just like how the Sonion 2389 is an analog to the ED-29689. Who knows how well the shock resistance is, but it seems to do well in emulating the ED driver performance. It looks worse in high-end extension, but that's about it.
   
  Sooner or later, some Chinese company is going to roll out with a sub-$100 dual-BA universal IEM. I can just smell it.


----------



## MuZo2

Whats this
http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=0.0.0.84.bfa00&id=14273309315
 do they do shells for customs?


----------



## tomscy2000

Quote: 





muzo2 said:


> Whats this
> http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=0.0.0.84.bfa00&id=14273309315
> do they do shells for customs?


 
   
  Well, the store that you're looking at is basically advertisement for some dude who remolds earphones in his backyard, literally. He made a series of explanatory videos on Chinese tube sites that detail how to DIY custom ear molds. I guess he's willing to make the shells for people who want to try to assemble their own customs but don't have the acrylic/UV to make their own shells. So, he's positioning himself as a one-stop DIY shop for CIEMs.


----------



## Mython

Quote: 





tomscy2000 said:


> Well, the store that you're looking at is basically advertisement for some dude who remolds earphones in his backyard, literally. He made a series of explanatory videos on Chinese tube sites that detail how to DIY custom ear molds. I guess he's willing to make the shells for people who want to try to assemble their own customs but don't have the acrylic/UV to make their own shells. So, he's positioning himself as a one-stop DIY shop for CIEMs.


 
   
   
  Ahh, China - ever the land of the entrepreneur!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
   
  ....still...if he turned out to be a disgruntled ex-employee of one of the big Chinese vendors (I'll name no names), then he might be a godsend to DIY Head-fiers


----------



## tomscy2000

http://cubify.com/cube/index.aspx
   
  Interesting "affordable" 3D printer....


----------



## Nixon

Looking at the prints, I don't think the resolution will be high enough. If you wanted to print CIEMs, you'd need something like http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/b9creations/b9creator-a-high-resolution-3d-printer which uses a polymer resin instead of  a filament.


----------



## Mython

Getting closer to mainstream all the time, isn't it?
   
  I estimate it'll be another 24-36 months and then we'll start to see some serious mass-market uptake of decent-resolution (albeit small-scale) 3D-printing.
   
  Like many others, I expect 3D-printing will be _MASSIVE._
   
  If I had the money to invest, I'd be investing like crazy in 3D printer developers. I genuinely think 3D-printing can potentially give rise to a more successful company than Apple. Of course, the billion-dollar question then is, _which_ of the 3DP companies will that be?
   
  Meanwhile, how many of you CIEM DIY-ers have considered taking your ear impressions to a 3D-Printing workshop and asking them how much they'd charge for a small run of hollow shells? (Obviously, they'd need a bit of coaching on slightly enlarging the scanned mould model, to yield the equivalent of the 'wax-dipping' process).
   
  Until such time as 3DP becomes truly viable in the home, I think outsourcing the 3DP could be the way to go.
   
  I think companies like Minerva already offer a scanning service, though whether they'd be willing to produce empty moulds, too, I doubt, particularly since they seem to favour silicone.
   
  Anyway, I'm quite certain there will be someone willing (even eager) to undertake the required work for a CIEM DIY-er, just as that Chinese fella demonstrates, on the manual side of things.


----------



## coffeeimam

Quote: 





edba2000 said:


> Here is my recent project: CI+TWFK
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Those look great! Where did you manage to find the UE/Westone style connectors? I found something that seems to fit the bill at http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=2013.1.0.129.3b6801&scm=1007.77.0.0&id=14271202065&ad_id=&am_id=&cm_id=&pm_id= but was hoping there was something from a more established source.


----------



## bonebrain

Here is a potential
   
  http://btg-audio.com/webstore.htm#ecwid:category=2620180&mode=product&product=11559159


----------



## fatman711

I feel like I've seen a cheaper source from China somewhere...


----------



## cristian61

or


----------



## morfologus

Hi,
 Maybe I'm in the wrong place but possibily you can help me.
  My iem cable is broken many times so I decided to replace it with a home made detachable one. Here is the hardest part, I need an iem connector socket and plug together but I can't found them anywhere. 
 Do you have any idea to solve my problem?

 Thank you so much.


----------



## MuZo2

morfologus what type of iem do you have? there are two types of cables and connectors widely used. One you see in shure iem and other you see in westone or UE


----------



## morfologus

Sorry, my comment was ambiguous. I have a soundmgaic pl50 with non detachable cable and I'd like to transform it to detachable.
 So it would be right the shure's type and the westone's type socket as well, the plug is easy to buy for either.


----------



## MuZo2

I dont think its worth to do it for pl50
   
  http://www.ebay.de/itm/DIY-Ultimate-Ears-UE-TF10-socket-Pair-for-IEM-pin-plugs-/120990883853?pt=UK_MP3_Player_Accessories_Replacement_Parts_Tools&hash=item1c2b9e600d

 http://www.ebay.de/itm/Shure-SE535-SE425-SE315-SE215-DIY-Pin-Connector-Plug-Pair-/110967473617?pt=UK_AudioVisualElectronics_HomeAudioHiFi_Headphones&hash=item19d62d45d1
   
  http://www.ebay.de/itm/Westone-WR-W4R-UM3X-RC-JH-UM-UE-DIY-Pin-Connector-Plug-Pair-Black-/110967415933?pt=UK_AudioVisualElectronics_HomeAudioHiFi_Headphones&hash=item19d62c647d
   
  There is also a ebay seller from china, you will have to search the DIY forum a bit.


----------



## morfologus

Thanks. I know the pl50 is not a serious iem but I really like it and I can't afford a more expensive earphone currently.
 I think the tf10 socket is disproportionately expensive. This kit would be perfect http://www.ebay.com/itm/A-Pair-SHURE-SE-Ears-DIY-Plug-connector-Female-/320759741871?pt=Other_MP3_Player_Accessories&hash=item4aaec53daf&nma=true&si=38VYRUYMd99wEVVZpxLGRPinA%2Fc%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
 but I'm not sure if this works with the pl50 because to the driver connect two cables and the plug has one access. (Sorry for my stupid question)


----------



## PakoBoy

i am not sure but i think you have to solder one cable to the pin and the other one to the shell.
  but maybe someone else can confirm it.
   
  btw 
  these are the same thing but much cheaper
  http://www.ebay.com/itm/MMCX-male-plug-solder-PCB-edge-surface-mount-RF-connector-/320847611661?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4ab402070d
   
  http://www.ebay.com/itm/MMCX-female-solder-for-PCB-edge-surface-mount-RF-connector-/320847611470?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4ab402064e


----------



## Xymordos

Interesting read. From forums in China some DIYers, after testing their own DIY iems, commented that the crossover does have little effect on the sound. However, the filter, and tube length/material has a great effect on sound. Is this why Sony's XBA series doesn't use a crossover?


----------



## garcsa

Hi, maybe somebody knows -  exactly which Knowles BA drivers used in Meelec A161P?
  Thanks.


----------



## AnAnalogSpirit

Quote: 





morfologus said:


> Thanks. I know the pl50 is not a serious iem but I really like it and I can't afford a more expensive earphone currently.
> I think the tf10 socket is disproportionately expensive. This kit would be perfect http://www.ebay.com/itm/A-Pair-SHURE-SE-Ears-DIY-Plug-connector-Female-/320759741871?pt=Other_MP3_Player_Accessories&hash=item4aaec53daf&nma=true&si=38VYRUYMd99wEVVZpxLGRPinA%2Fc%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
> but I'm not sure if this works with the pl50 because to the driver connect two cables and the plug has one access. (Sorry for my stupid question)


 
  @morfologus,
   
  You're right that the TF10/CIEM socket is expensive (running about $19 USD a pair) but having had the same thought for my own pair of PL50 and gotten to the point of (fairly easy disassembly) but not yet to the point of choosing the adhesive to bond the sockets into the PL50 with (epoxy putty/silicone/other) and reading more about soldering on micro-sized joint areas (I want to watch a few more tutorial videos, etc before attaching the new internal wires) etc...; I feel that the TF10/CIEM socket (available from Frank @ Toxic Cables or Brian @ BTG Audio) that they fit the size of the PL50 best, certainly better than the comparatively bulky MMCX connector for the SHURE IEMs.  For your DIY Cable connectors the Lunashops UE/TF10 metal shells & connector tips are rather nice looking & fit the listed sockets well.
   
  Thought you might appreciate the feedback. Good Luck with your PL50 removable socket mod.


----------



## Xymordos

Some information: 
  I have the UERM and the internals look very simple. It seems to be two of same high and mid drivers with a bass driver, which is likely a CI22955, and both high and mid drivers goes into one tube. Both all 3 drivers uses white filters. There are 3 components in there, which looks like 2 capacitors and a resistor/diode. Need to look closer for the connections however. 
   
  Also, I want to ask what is the center tab for?
   
  Edit: Are there more information about the phases of the drivers?


----------



## tomscy2000

Quote: 





xymordos said:


> Some information:
> I have the UERM and the internals look very simple. Its a TWFK with Ci22955, and TWFK goes into one tube. Both TWFK and CI uses white filters. There are 3 components in there, which looks like 2 capacitors and a resistor/diode. Need to look closer for the connections however.
> 
> Also, I want to ask what is the center tab for?
> ...


 
   
  The UERM does NOT have a TWFK. Those two mid/high drivers are not even the same size. They're more akin to the size of two EDs or an HC/WBHC driver. It's also very possible they use the Sonion 2300 series. And please don't quote a model number like "22955" unless you actually see those numbers on the side of the driver, even though it's highly likely that the low driver is a CI.


----------



## Xymordos

The UERM high and mid drivers are the same size and are stuck together. I'm not sure where you got the conclusion that they are not the same size.
   
  However, I would like to apologize for my mistake. TWFK has one sound tube, while the UERM one has two. However, the bass driver is definitely a CI series (I compared the pictures online), and probably a 22955.
   
  Taking a closer look my high and mid drivers looks like two of the same drivers stuck together.
   
  I have edited my previous post to correct my mistake.


----------



## tomscy2000

I meant to say that the TWFK isn't the same size as those mid/high drivers. I think I was distracted when I wrote that.


----------



## Xymordos

Yeah, sorry about that. Knowles doesn't seem to produce drivers like this. A Dual driver with 2 nozzles, and the drivers for mid and highs might just be the same.


----------



## Nixon

Quote: 





xymordos said:


> . Is this why Sony's XBA series doesn't use a crossover?


 
  Sony went another direction and ended designing each driver to only produce certain frequencies. Think it's classed as a mechanical crossover.


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote: 





xymordos said:


> Interesting read. From forums in China some DIYers, after testing their own DIY iems, commented that the crossover does have little effect on the sound. However, the filter, and tube length/material has a great effect on sound. Is this why Sony's XBA series doesn't use a crossover?


 
  Well I will say that it's not true. Crossover has big impact on how the driver performs. Of course between 1,3kHz high pass and 1,5kHz high pass you wouldn't probably notice the difference in the final product. However it makes the difference if you leave driver as a full range or make low pass/high pass on it. Different wiring of driver makes different sound signatures. Say in triple driver on which I worked recently I could have made bass heavy or pretty bright just by changing wiring in crossover.
  I'd say that there's less effect to how long the tube is or how big the damper value is than to how you wire drivers and caps.
  Quote: 





garcsa said:


> Hi, maybe somebody knows -  exactly which Knowles BA drivers used in Meelec A161P?
> Thanks.


 
  I would hazard a guess that it's Sonion 2300 judging by its sound. Though if you're sure that it's Knowles it would be ED driver I guess.


----------



## tomscy2000

Quote: 





piotrus-g said:


> Well I will say that it's not true. Crossover has big impact on how the driver performs. Of course between 1,3kHz high pass and 1,5kHz high pass you wouldn't probably notice the difference in the final product. However it makes the difference if you leave driver as a full range or make low pass/high pass on it. Different wiring of driver makes different sound signatures. Say in triple driver on which I worked recently I could have made bass heavy or pretty bright just by changing wiring in crossover.
> I'd say that there's less effect to how long the tube is or how big the damper value is than to how you wire drivers and caps.


 
   
  Agree.


----------



## piotrus-g

Although, It's important to know how to combine all of these factors to find a golden spot.
   
  Tube length can have an impact on the phase so it's quite important to be aware of that in multi-way IEM. But again - it's important to know it all combines.


----------



## Mython

I know almost everyone here has a high level of technical knowledge, but just for those H-F members who may be new to balanced armatures and who may be browsing this thread in order to learn, the following video is of relevance:
   





   
   
   
   
  and, strangely, unless I've overlooked it in this long thread, no-one seems to have posted the following vids of the manufacturing process, which are highly relevant to the topic at hand:
   
_*Ultimate Ears / Logitech*_








   
_*Westone*_




   
_*1964 Ears* (thanks to average_joe & tomscy2000 for the links)_


----------



## kaixax555

hmmm I actually browsed through the entire 98 pages (to realize I posted here over 1 year ago)
   
  feels like a surge of new knowledge flowing in my head?
   
  So after reading I am still slightly confused... is there an affordable way to make transparent shells?
   
  I think I should sort out all the information here into simpler form (and hopefully share with you all)... you can practically write a book from all the knowledge in this thread...


----------



## kaixax555

Oh and I have been reading marozie's instructibles...
   
  he simplified some stuff for me but I think there is still much to learn from this thread


----------



## kaixax555

Hi guys I have compiled information in the form of Google Docs so that the knowledge found in the 98 pages here can be consolidated and allows people who want to build their own DIY IEMs and customs to do it more easily
   
  https://docs.google.com/document/d/1CsSNzCCrE3Yu1qAty2la_TMmw6DAUv18LJ8ef4Y-ztw/edit
 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vpjf2uKD58DtqIFQFNHv5E83rrWG_PBQ-W9rW4M5G0s/edit
   
  I believe I need to thank the people who have spent their valuable time researching and working on these ideas for the benefit of the DIY and head-fi community.
  If there are any problems in the documents, feel free to edit

 Since I am free for the next few months, I have the time to try out this project
   
  Now I need more "resources" so that I can gather the require materials and start on it


----------



## bonebrain

This is awesome.  This is going to be very helpful but it appears as though the first link provides a blank document


----------



## kaixax555

bonebrain said:


> This is awesome.  This is going to be very helpful but it appears as though the first link provides a blank document




ah yes the first link is currently blank as I am in the process of consolidating the technical information presented in this thread (there is a lot) and I am thinking about how it should be presented

so for now it is blank, feel free to add on if you have any information to share, anyway for now anyone who knows this link should be able to edit the document


----------



## teeball

I have been lurking this thread for a while, and I decided to undertake making my own custom iems. I decided to use the Sonion 2091i, 2015, and 2389. I've managed to get all the other supplies I need, but I can't find anywhere to get Sonion drivers. I emailed Audiotronics and Colsonmicro, and neither one responded. I emailed Sonion too, but they told me that the only sell trays of 100 drivers. Does anybody know where the heck I can buy these drivers?


----------



## MuZo2

Quote: 





teeball said:


> Does anybody know where the heck I can buy these drivers?


 
   
  Sonion donot sell in small quantities, also their re-sellers will not sell one or two drivers. You should be looking for Knowles alternatives which can be bought from mouser. Or you can check here in sales section for IEM using sonion drivers.


----------



## RubbberDucky

I Posted in this thread in September of 09 and holy crap a lot has been added,  so much that I am afraid to even begin attempting to get caught up.


----------



## jackpawsey

Hello there everybody, 
  
 Just joined this forum so this is my first post. Having a great time reading about all sorts of stuff on here, but just wanted to ask a question.
  
 I'm looking at making my own IEMs for a project, and i was wondering about the shure pin connectors which are these little guys here..  I thought about these as it would be easy enough to buy a shure cable instead of having to make one. If anyone has any other suggestions on cabling etc I would love to know the details, 
  
 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/110967473617?_trksid=p5197.c0.m619
  
 I want to connect them to these little guys..
  
 http://uk.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Knowles-Acoustics/CI-22955-000/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMttVYCpp6LxRZRI5GrM6FPi
  
 I thought I would put it to the forum to see what people think is the best way and to which pin etc, any information welcome, diagrams etc would be overwhelmingly helpful! Without sounding like a total novice (which I am!) Do i wire the drivers to the resistors and capacictors and then from the resistors and caps to the shure pin? 

 Thank you in advance!
  
 Jack


----------



## jackpawsey

Hello again everybody, 

 I'm just about to purchase some biopor AB40 clear silicon for the IEMs, it comes to £90 with VAT, and apparently it will make almost 80 moulds. I was wondering if anyone would be interested in going halves on it? As i definitely wont be needing that amount, so might make it cheaper for a few people out there looking to make some IEMs. 
   
   
  Let me know what y'all think?
   
  Jack


----------



## Q Mass

PM sent Jack
  I will take some of your order if that's ok.
  But I think that even a quarter or your 90 quids worth will be more than enough for me.
  Maybe others will be interested too?


----------



## tsn141

How do you plan for curing of biopors?You will need pressure for overcoming pororsity.


----------



## MuZo2

Yes was wondering same, how does this material cure ? how do you guys plan to cure them at home?


----------



## jackpawsey

hey guys, i was under the assumption that it just cured at room temperature? This is what ive read and been told, but perhaps they weren't overly informed. Do you guys have a suggestion on any other product i could use for the body of the shells? 
   
  This is a bit of info  and techniques on biopor AB shore 40 that i'd be using
   
  http://www.clinicasdeaudicion.com/audiologia_ocupacional/Protocolo%20de%20fabricaci%C3%B3n%20de%20protectores%20a%20la%20medida.pdf


----------



## tsn141

Yes it cures at room temperature but not room pressure 
  The companys ,uses soft mould,uses UV silicones.It is easier than the UV acrylics.Egger LP/W ise good product for that purpose also loctite resin aid is another good material.


----------



## MuZo2

The pdf says 1hr in boiling water and then 15hrs at 150 deg(over night).


----------



## jackpawsey

yo!

 I think thats only the biopor HV (hot vulcanisation) which needs to cure for 15 hours overnight in hot cabinet. I'm looking at getting the biopor AB which is I don't think you need to put in hot cabinet, only if you're laquering with their product? - I think I'm right in saying this anyway!?

 Is this the kinda product from egger you were saying about? COuldnt seem to find anything about the loctite resinaid
   
  Cheers for your help guys. Let me know what you think about the Biopor AB


----------



## tsn141

egger LP/W
  loctite 3596
  loctite 3680
  loctite 3684
  these materials are UV vulcanising silicones.
  dreve has no UV vulcanising(polimerising si,licone)
   
  You can use google for further infomation


----------



## piotrus-g

Biopor AB is addition curing silicone - it means that in one 48ml tube has two chambers - one with coloring concentrate and component A and second with component B. They mix together by using mixing canula and pressure injector. Before you waste your money on materials think if you're really able to use it as they were meant to.


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote: 





tsn141 said:


> egger LP/W
> loctite 3596
> loctite 3680
> loctite 3684
> ...


 
  These aren't UV curing silicone (I'm not sure if such thing even exists)
  egger LP and Loctite are UV curing acrylic and that's quite big difference.


----------



## tranhieu

why not uv acrylic? it's cheaper, less messy, easier to work with, more durable, prettier and so on. Try to walk properly before learning how to run, though I have to admit there're less specialized equipments involved when working with silicone.


----------



## tsn141

Quote: 





piotrus-g said:


> These aren't UV curing silicone (I'm not sure if such thing even exists)
> egger LP and Loctite are UV curing acrylic and that's quite big difference.


 
  They are silicone,I read them drom egger and loctite catalogue.


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote: 





tsn141 said:


> They are silicone,I read them drom egger and loctite catalogue.


 

 I'm sorry but you've probably miss read it. I've just checekd their catalog LP is UV acrylic. There's no UV curing silicone in the egger shop. Please see the catalog again https://egger-labor.de/enplace/1101/files/E_Katalog_2013_web.pdf
   
  Also check loctite 3684 info: http://deweb02.henkel.com/henkel/adhesives/Product%20Approvals.nsf/03e34d770c41d3ab802572f1005551f8/382ca8eae080635e8025734d0050dc5b?OpenDocument Clearly says Acrylic UV


----------



## tsn141

Quote: 





piotrus-g said:


> I'm sorry but you've probably miss read it. I've just checekd their catalog LP is UV acrylic. There's no UV curing silicone in the egger shop. Please see the catalog again https://egger-labor.de/enplace/1101/files/E_Katalog_2013_web.pdf
> 
> Also check loctite 3684 info: http://deweb02.henkel.com/henkel/adhesives/Product%20Approvals.nsf/03e34d770c41d3ab802572f1005551f8/382ca8eae080635e8025734d0050dc5b?OpenDocument Clearly says Acrylic UV


 
  http://ebookbrowse.com/lt3380-resinaid-brochure-pdf-d19077253
 at page 9/16 the 3596,3680,3584 says SOFT,UV.

 At page 176 your 2013 egger catalog writes " Also suitable for soft UV-materials (LP/W)." you can find that sentence with searching.
  also egger 2010 catalog:
  http://egger-labor.de/enplace/1101/files/E_Catalog_2010.pdf
  at page 136; LP/W soft UV polimerising.

 I hope you saw where you missed.


----------



## piotrus-g

Still these aren't silicone. Of course there are some different types of acrylics mostly used in Hearing Aid industry - these "Soft" materials are plastics/polymers they are meant to avoid cracks and breaking if say hearing aid fall out of ear. Westone uses something similar for their canal part of IEMs - they use Dreve Termosoft (my guess) there's also Dreve VarioTherm - both of these are heat-activated - they are getting soft after you put it in your ear, and you can't break them.
   
  I went through Loctite catalog and it says that 3596, 3680 and 3584 are "Acrylate Urethane" not silicone (page 8 and 9)
  From UV/Moisture curing silicone there are 5083 and 5084 only (Modified Acetoxy Silicone)


----------



## MuZo2

How do you guys intent to cure this UV silicone/Acrylics at home ?.


----------



## tranhieu

Quote: 





muzo2 said:


> How do you guys intent to cure this UV silicone/Acrylics at home ?.


 
  UV chamber? you can even build one yourself lol pretty straight forward stuff.


----------



## MuZo2

Great idea, already started working on it. Googling for information on DIY UV chamber


----------



## jackpawsey

Lots of info here, so after all this... what is the best product to use, weighing up pros and cons; cost, minimum purchase amount, curing methods etc? I like the idea of the UV material, but which one!? theres seems to be so many?! ha


----------



## jackpawsey

and anywhere in the UK to buy?


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote: 





jackpawsey said:


> I like the idea of the UV material, but which one!? theres seems to be so many?! ha


 
  It actually doesn't matter much which one you use. Loctite, dreve, egger works good as long as you use them well. Just be sure to get something skin-safe with ISO or CE.


----------



## jackpawsey

would this product work?
http://oto-tech.co.uk/product/30900/


----------



## tsn141

.


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote: 





jackpawsey said:


> would this product work?
> http://oto-tech.co.uk/product/30900/


 

 No, it won't. It's a modeling paste - it has really heavy consistency think of tooth paste. You need more liquid material or silicone.


----------



## jackpawsey

hello again everyone, 
   
  what aboout this product? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Jesmonite-AC300-Non-Toxic-Water-Based-Acrylic-Casting-Laminating-Resin-4Kg-Kit-/320808990930?pt=UK_Crafts_DrawingSupplies_EH&hash=item4ab1b4b8d2
   
  the guy who made the instructable about the iems used acrylic casting resin and coated it in nail polish to make it inert i guess?
   
  What do you guys think?


----------



## Mython

Quote: 





jackpawsey said:


> hello again everyone,
> 
> what aboout this product? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Jesmonite-AC300-Non-Toxic-Water-Based-Acrylic-Casting-Laminating-Resin-4Kg-Kit-/320808990930?pt=UK_Crafts_DrawingSupplies_EH&hash=item4ab1b4b8d2
> 
> ...


 
   
  Is there a non-toxic nail polish on the market? I'm not aware of one


----------



## jackpawsey

few links on here? http://www.care2.com/greenliving/non-toxic-nail-polish.html


----------



## zman0225

Lovely that I get to bump this thread up. I've made a set of non-hollow (toxic) CIEM that I am going to recycle. I'm planning to attempt a pair of hollow shells first though. Are there any cheap silicone for the initial investment process (I'd rather not redo impressions)? I will work directly with the impressions. I am planning to buy Fotoplast S/IO and the lacquer 3. However, I am still looking around for colloid materials. Does any one know a more economical and smaller solution to Krystalloid which they sell by the gallons (I'm trying to avoid gelatin, since the mixture might be uneven or opaque). Lastly, it comes the question of a UV chamber. I want to attempt a process where a pair can be treated at the same time. Right now, I am thinking of a box covered with breadboards full of UV LEDs -- the problems remains to be the equal dispersion of the UV light. Does any one have a solution that as well? Thanks in advance. I look forward to complete this process within the next month.


----------



## MuZo2

http://www.head-fi.org/t/656122/diy-shell-making-re-shell-guide-w-some-pictures


----------



## Mython

Quote: 





muzo2 said:


> http://www.head-fi.org/t/656122/diy-shell-making-re-shell-guide-w-some-pictures


 
   
   
_Hey, nice job!_
   
  Thanks for your willingness to share your process with others, here.
   
   
_'The more, the merrier!', _as they say in my part of the world!


----------



## jackpawsey

Hello everyone, I'm off travelling soon. So won't have time to complete my diy iem build.
   
  So I am selling off my electronics i acquired from colsan microelectronics. You can't actually buy in single units only in x100 quantities so for anyone looking to make a one off set, this is the perfect opportunity. 
   
  Here is a list of what you can be buying:
  
  2 x 33A007 Recievers (WOOFER)
   
   
   
   

   
   
   
  2 x 2323 Receivers (TWEETER)
   
   

   
   
  1 x Micromonitor Y Headphone Cable (silver)
   
   

   
   
  2 x Micromonitor Headphone sockets
   
   

   
   
  1 x 1m length of 2mm acoustic tubing (clear)
   
   

   
   
  1 x Sample assortment of acoustic dampers
   
   

   
   
   
  I bought this all for £110, and looking for a quickish sale, so please send me some offers! As i say you can't buy these in single units!
   
   
  Many thanks
  Jack


----------



## tomscy2000

Quote: 





jackpawsey said:


> So I am selling off my electronics i acquired from colsan microelectronics. You can't actually buy in single units only in x100 quantities so for anyone looking to make a one off set, this is the perfect opportunity.  I bought this all for £110, and looking for a quickish sale, so please send me some offers! As i say you can't buy these in single units!


 
   
  Someone should snatch this up!


----------



## MuZo2

http://www.head-fi.org/t/623221/diy-custom-iems-part-2
 Another DIY CIEM


----------



## NoForMe

I'm interested in your parts.. can you ship to the USA?


----------



## kaixax555

Hmmm a few days ago I was shown a site, where Chinese audiophiles DIY their IEMs with Shure SE535 shells... reshell services to SE535 shells are offered as well
   
  Well, at least we do not need to make shells anymore (unless we are aiming above triple driver)


----------



## Nyanman

hi all  i'm considering entering the wonderful world of diy iems,however, i have some inquiries. I have a pair of vsonic gr07 bass editions and i love them,but i'm looking to make something a bit better. After a few pages of lurking this thread, i think i have chosen my drivers [Knowles cl22955(1) and twfk(1) per ear]. Would those two fit in a shure 535 case? http://www.lunashops.com/goods.php?id=2254. I love the bass,but i prefer clean punches versus muddy, and i really like my snares and claps to sparkle as i listen to a lot of electronic music. Would my described set up work? If anyone had suggestions it would be much appreciated


----------



## MuZo2

[Knowles cl22955(1) and twfk(1) per ear] would be same setup like Westone3. They should fit in shure 535 shells. The crossover should me worked out correctly else CI can have lot of mid bass and can veil the twfk.


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote: 





nyanman said:


> hi all  i'm considering entering the wonderful world of diy iems,however, i have some inquiries. I have a pair of vsonic gr07 bass editions and i love them,but i'm looking to make something a bit better. After a few pages of lurking this thread, i think i have chosen my drivers [Knowles cl22955(1) and twfk(1) per ear]. Would those two fit in a shure 535 case? http://www.lunashops.com/goods.php?id=2254. I love the bass,but i prefer clean punches versus muddy, and i really like my snares and claps to sparkle as i listen to a lot of electronic music. Would my described set up work? If anyone had suggestions it would be much appreciated


 
  Find measurements (size) in datasheets of CI and TWFK than go to Sonion, find 3300 driver and 2300 - compare size and see it they will fit. My guess they could with drivers in vertical position but there's always a chance they will not. Why don't you buy E5c shell form lunashops? E5c is based on CI and ED - so i this case CI+TWFK will fit easily.


----------



## Nyanman

I'm still a bit confused about crossovers despite reading 17 pages into the thread,do I need them? And also,do you think the se535's mmcx connector will fit inside the e5c? Reason being I want to fit the ue connector converter http://www.lunashops.com/goods.php?id=2672. Furthermore, can an additional twfk boost highs? i hate veil XD. can a cross over fix this? how? can acoustic filters help? Lastly, sonion vs knowles? I live in canada so which will be the most cost effective,which one sounds better? Is the better sounding brand is more expensive, is it worth it?

Ps:sorry for all the questions,I'm quite ambitious XD


----------



## tomscy2000

Quote: 





nyanman said:


> I'm still a bit confused about crossovers despite reading 17 pages into the thread,do I need them? And also,do you think the se535's mmcx connector will fit inside the e5c? Reason being I want to fit the ue connector converter http://www.lunashops.com/goods.php?id=2672. Furthermore, can an additional twfk boost highs? i hate veil XD. can a cross over fix this? how? can acoustic filters help? Lastly, sonion vs knowles? I live in canada so which will be the most cost effective,which one sounds better? Is the better sounding brand is more expensive, is it worth it?
> 
> Ps:sorry for all the questions,I'm quite ambitious XD


 
   
  Ambition needs to be accompanied with diligence... you'll need to read more than 17 pages and a lot of outside reading as well. I've spent a long time reading about this stuff, and I can't say I really understand it well, either.
   

 Neither Knowles nor Sonion are better than one another. It's a just a choice. The two companies have different strategies when it comes to products, but they have several analogous products as well.
 In general, the unit price of a Sonion driver is lower, but that's from a bulk order standpoint. You can order Knowles drivers in single units from DigiKey or Mouser, but for single units of Sonion drivers, you'll have to either get single samples from Sonion themselves, or on special order from Colsan.
 Yes, the MMCX will fit within the E5c. It has been done before. However, you'll need to do some simple Dremel work.
 An additional TWFK only gives you more "headroom", i.e. you can gain a bigger difference in SPL between the midrange and the highs, or the midrange and the lows, etc. Tonality is a relative thing.
 Acoustic filters are extremely important to shaping the sound. However, inside a universal shell, you'll be limited to a single damper. You'll need to shape the response by the highs or by the lows. That will be determined by the crossover implemented. Tubing is part of that equation (diameter, length), but if you're working with a universal shell, you'll be limited in those options.
 In essence, the "crossover" is a passive network of band-pass (high/low) filters. Their additive effect creates the aggregate response. It's difficult to implement a low-pass filter with balanced armatures, though, as inductors are problematic. There are some people who have hand-wound inductors specifically for these purposes, but few actually do that. Most people slap a heavy acoustic damper on the front and restrict the tubing diameter to act as an "acoustic low-pass", in addition to passive resistors to restrict absolute output. Resistors also have high-frequency attenuating effects because of the inductance of the BA drivers themselves, but those effects are not linear. Also, polarity will have an effect as well. If you connect a high-pass in reverse phase (e.g. 180 degrees out of phase, but BA drivers don't have even phase response across the entire bandwidth, so that's a simplistic explanation), then you'll get phase cancellation of certain frequencies if they're not identical responses. Crossovers can get messy if they're not designed well, so that's why most designers keep it simple.
   
  (those with better electroacoustic knowledge than me, please correct my [probable] mistakes in explanation 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





)


----------



## Mython

Thanks very much for taking the time to post a detailed '101' on the topic, tomscy2000.
   
  I find it particularly intriguing that, in contrast to almost all his peers, Grzegorz has produced something as complex as the SE-5 without resorting to the use of filters. Very impressive achievement, IMO.


----------



## Nyanman

.


----------



## Nyanman

Thanks for the explanation  is there sonion alternative to the ka twfk and cl22955? That will fit in the se535/e5c shell? In a nutshell im going for westone 3/um3x clone


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote: 





mython said:


> Thanks very much for taking the time to post a detailed '101' on the topic, tomscy2000.
> 
> I find it particularly intriguing that, in contrast to almost all his peers, Grzegorz has produced something as complex as the SE-5 without resorting to the use of filters. Very impressive achievement, IMO.


 
  It's a combination of tube length and diameter plus phase shifts. ACS also made its IEMs without dampers back in the days.
   
  Quote: 





> Thanks for the explanation
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  2091+2323 could be made to match Westone 3 or UM3x response. There's no straight replacement for TWFK in Sonion line up.


----------



## Nyanman

but a cl22955 and twfk will be better? i'm really just exploring my options.How do i use sound tubes to modify the sound? what acoustic dampers/filters do you suggest i use to achieve the westone 3 sound?


----------



## AudioNoob

Is there a way to identify (without model numbers) which driver is doing what? My ciems have a small dual armature, and another single armature at least three times as large, I can only read the large one, which is a knowles 22955


----------



## MuZo2

22955 is for bass and small one for mid-highs.What iem do you have.


----------



## AudioNoob

They were superfreqs, they just got reshelled by inearz and I am trying to figure out why they sound a little veiled.


----------



## asdafaasda

I'm not exactly trying to make my own IEMs, but I see that the topic of drivers are being discussed, would anyone be able to give me their opinions about this?
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/663171/has-anyone-tried-combining-two-universals-to-a-custom-reshell
   
  I'm trying to combine the drivers of the SM3 and TF10 into a reshell, and am looking for more opinions.


----------



## tomscy2000

Quote: 





asdafaasda said:


> I'm not exactly trying to make my own IEMs, but I see that the topic of drivers are being discussed, would anyone be able to give me their opinions about this?
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/663171/has-anyone-tried-combining-two-universals-to-a-custom-reshell
> 
> I'm trying to combine the drivers of the SM3 and TF10 into a reshell, and am looking for more opinions.


 

 I don't think it's worth it, but the most plausible thing would be to use the CI low driver from the SM3 and add it to the TF10. However, it's much cheaper if you just ordered the CI driver online, instead of destroying a perfectly good earphone for no reason. It's not practical to add the mids and highs of the SM3 to the mix, as they are delivered by a single dual receiver, the TWFK, and it doesn't quite fit in with the rest of the crowd. However, I've had a TWFK + 33A before, so that's plausible as well. The 2389 (UE-High) of the TF10 can also be added to the CI low of the SM3 for a dual driver configuration, but somehow I don't think you're interested in making two earphones by mixing and matching one another. Also, most companies won't be willing to do this for you, as they don't want to take the time investigating how to best implement the crossover. They usually have set formulas, like the TF10x4, TF10x6, SM3x8, etc. I advise you not to try this.


----------



## KimChee

I follow your line of thinking, but I also think this is a bad idea.  There's no telling how those drivers will sound in the same shell.  At least with the known options there is a known outcome thats sounds good.  If you wanted to add drivers to a universal iem, I think you'd be better off going with tfx6, or sm3x8, but even then there aren't that many people who have done that.  Probably better idea is just to go with the customs that already have pre-configured set up ie Miracle, Merlin, etc
  Quote: 





asdafaasda said:


> I'm not exactly trying to make my own IEMs, but I see that the topic of drivers are being discussed, would anyone be able to give me their opinions about this?
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/663171/has-anyone-tried-combining-two-universals-to-a-custom-reshell
> 
> I'm trying to combine the drivers of the SM3 and TF10 into a reshell, and am looking for more opinions.


----------



## asdafaasda

I see, thanks for everyone's inputs! I saw tf10s that needed to be reshelled for a good price, and I already had the sm3, so I was curious.


----------



## jackpawsey

Hi all, 
   
  Just writing a post to say the drivers I'm selling are having a little discount on them! They were listed at £110 but I can cut it down to £90. I can post to USA for all you people asking! These are SONION drivers.
   
   
  If anyone is interested I have just been sent some sample Sonion AcuPass Drivers which are a a two way driver and include an internal crossover. here is a link to the website announcing them
   
   
  http://www.colsanmicro.com/product-release-1723-acupass-2/
   
  Let me know if anyone is interested in them!
   
  Jack


----------



## piotrus-g

Allow me to clear things up you are trying to actually sell AcuPass drivers you've received for free?


----------



## jackpawsey

They weren't free i'm afraid!


----------



## audiofreakie

can someone help me to make 4 drivers crossover for my xba 4?
  there are 4 driver, namely:
  woofer, tweeter, full range & super woofer
   
  thanks.


----------



## MuZo2

I dont think anyone has Information on specification of these Drivers so no one can help you with crossover.


----------



## KumitateK

Hi, I'm Japanese CIEM-DIYer & I always consult with this DIY thread.
   
  BTW, XBA-4 has unique divers made by SONY, so it is hard even for DIYer to help you.
  I think XBA doesn't have any crossover. It makes its sound by arrangement of BA drivers.
  So it's very hard to sustain its original sound if you take out its drivers from shell.


----------



## BillsonChang007

Quote: 





kumitatek said:


> Hi, I'm Japanese CIEM-DIYer & I always consult with this DIY thread.
> 
> BTW, XBA-4 has unique divers made by SONY, so it is hard even for DIYer to help you.
> I think XBA doesn't have any crossover. It makes its sound by arrangement of BA drivers.
> So it's very hard to sustain its original sound if you take out its drivers from shell.


 
  Hello!
   
  Yep, XBA line does not use a crossover... It's my first IEM and was thinking of reshelling it...now it doesn't seem like a good idea! The 8 Ohm impedance can be annoying sometimes... Like really...


----------



## tomscy2000

Question: How many "otoplastik" firms are there anyway? Dreve, Egger, 3M, Heba... I'm sure I'm missing companies... what are the pros/cons of each?


----------



## tomscy2000

Quote: 





kumitatek said:


> Hi, I'm Japanese CIEM-DIYer & I always consult with this DIY thread.


 
   
  Hey! Great to see you on here! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  BTW, everyone --- *KumitateK*'s blog is _amazing_... everyone interested in DIY should _definitely_ check it out: http://diy-ciem.blogspot.jp/


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote: 





tomscy2000 said:


> Question: How many "otoplastik" firms are there anyway? Dreve, Egger, 3M, Heba... I'm sure I'm missing companies... what are the pros/cons of each?


 
  Yup. Loctite 
   
  basically all companies offers similar products both in quality and materials.


----------



## MuZo2

Quote: 





tomscy2000 said:


> Question: How many "otoplastik" firms are there anyway? Dreve, Egger, 3M, Heba... I'm sure I'm missing companies... what are the pros/cons of each?


 

 Detax is annother brand , and you can buy online directly.


----------



## jackpawsey

Ive still got all my parts to sell, Previous post has all the pictures etc. Looking for any offers now, need the sale before I go away!
   
  Thanks
  Jack


----------



## hilosxdd

Hoping to try out a DIY iem soon , will need guidance from a professional . Anyone willing to guide me along ? Meanwhile will read up and research more .


----------



## alphaman

Just a quick post here for some much-needed advice/suggestions ....
   
  I have a pair of Shure SE-530 in disassembled condition, as shown here (not my image, but looks same)

(They were taken apart in order to replace that infamous "dry-rotting" Shure cable [see H-F archives for more on this]). The body/shell was carefully split--as shown above -- to expose their innards. That was some time ago as this is not an easy project -- one issue is finding proper replacement cable -- so the these Shure's remain in pieces in Ziplocks awaiting some disposition or disposal.
   
I _could_ salvage the the SE530 in some interesting/skill-building/fun DIY fashion some of you may suggest ... Please!
   
  Soundwise, I never cared for the SE530 *after *I acquired Senn IE-8, ES SM3v2 and ER-4s, so them sitting in pieces is not a big deal ... unless there is some DIY use for them that ALSO improves the SQ over the SE530/535 series. Speaking of which, any chance these could be sold for parts? Suggestions for that are welcome, too.
   
  Thx!!


----------



## jeronimog1313

Whant about if you get a pair of MMCX connectors from ebay
   
http://www.ebay.com/itm/PC-Board-PCB-Mount-Center-Solder-MMCX-Female-Jack-Straight-RF-Coaxial-Connector-/300868895741?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item460d2f03fd
   
  you will be able to use the shure detachable cable.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Replacement-cable-with-Remote-Mic-connect-iphone-to-SHURE-SE535-SE425-SE315-215-/310711199421?pt=US_MP3_Player_Cables_Adapters&hash=item4857d4a6bd
   
  hope you find useful this information


----------



## Cryok95

Does anyone have a good source for UV-Cured Acrylic Resin? Would like to get some but it's hard to find the right one since there are so many out there.


----------



## alphaman

Thx for that info...but I want to take the shortest route: re-solder in new cables. I was thinking: cheap (but decent) WalMart IEMs or buds (e.g., Sony) ... snip off the drivers. The only concern is re-assembling the two-piece shell. Not sure what resin or glue held it together. I've read other's post how good a job Shure does with "resining in", and I had to undo much of that during disassembly. Also, and importantly, there is the final acoustic seal ... it seems to be acoustic suspension, and not ported or reflex. Dunno how common port/reflex design is for BA IEMs?????
  Quote: 





jeronimog1313 said:


> Whant about if you get a pair of MMCX connectors from ebay
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/PC-Board-PCB-Mount-Center-Solder-MMCX-Female-Jack-Straight-RF-Coaxial-Connector-/300868895741?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item460d2f03fd
> 
> ...


----------



## Xymordos

Quote: 





audiofreakie said:


> can someone help me to make 4 drivers crossover for my xba 4?
> there are 4 driver, namely:
> woofer, tweeter, full range & super woofer
> 
> thanks.


 
  Sony uses a mechanical crossover for the drivers. Each of its drivers are only designed to produce a specific range of frequencies.


----------



## jeronimog1313

I can help with the UV resin but what about the material for the mould making?


----------



## jeronimog1313

Lots of people talking about crossover for TWFK and CI22955, what about sonion 2323 and sonion 33A007 any suggestion?


----------



## jeronimog1313




----------



## jeronimog1313

Quote: 





alphaman said:


> Just a quick post here for some much-needed advice/suggestions ....
> 
> I have a pair of Shure SE-530 in disassembled condition, as shown here (not my image, but looks same)
> 
> ...


 
  Did you fix you problem?


----------



## Tom45282003

hey guys I have not posted here for a long time, i have been gone from the audiophile zone, in order to save money  I'm following the forum for the past two days, I saw all the parts that are needed on the first post but my question is 
   
  how do you get all the pieces to sit because an silicon ear piece will be whole and not cut in half 
   
  thanks a lot 
   
  will a scalpel be good to cut a whole (I want to also make custom sleeves


----------



## FullCircle

Just making sure the hands dont get rusty


----------



## jpmilner

Please please please don't ever let your hands get rusty; you, sir, make art. I lusted after Wizard designed customs. I continue to lust after Wizard designed customs.


----------



## Cryok95

Quote: 





jpmilner said:


> Please please please don't ever let your hands get rusty; you, sir, make art. I lusted after Wizard designed customs. I continue to lust after Wizard designed customs.


 


 Lust is a pretty strong word, but in this case, i think it's appropriate. WIZARD FTW!


----------



## FullCircle

Quote: 





cryok95 said:


> Lust is a pretty strong word, but in this case, i think it's appropriate. WIZARD FTW!


 
   
   
  Quote: 





jpmilner said:


> Please please please don't ever let your hands get rusty; you, sir, make art. I lusted after Wizard designed customs. I continue to lust after Wizard designed customs.


 
   
   
  Thanks guys...   I'm working on something else as well...   I'll post pics of the build....   be prepared it will be a beast of a project. But I think I will be posting that in the "show us your build" thread. (DIY)


----------



## Cryok95

Quote: 





fullcircle said:


> Thanks guys...   I'm working on something else as well...   I'll post pics of the build....   be prepared it will be a beast of a project. But I think I will be posting that in the "show us your build" thread. (DIY)


 

 Great! PM me the link when it's done! I am really interested!


----------



## FullCircle

Quote: 





cryok95 said:


> Great! PM me the link when it's done! I am really interested!


 
   
   
      Well I am very excited about this one....   I'll be leaning on knowledge my grandfather taught my dad, and my dad subsequently taught my brother and I.
   
     I guess it is my way of remembering my dad, and my youth.  I'm aiming for the end of November for completion.


----------



## rubick

fullcircle said:


> Just making sure the hands dont get rusty


 
  
 it looks really beautiful. 
 should have gotten a Wizard design when i had the chance last year. 
 will be awaiting for more of your new build =)


----------



## FullCircle

rubick said:


> it looks really beautiful.
> should have gotten a Wizard design when i had the chance last year.
> will be awaiting for more of your new build =)


 
  

  
  
  
 I've got a "Wizard Design" cooking right now.....


----------



## rubick

fullcircle said:


> I've got a "Wizard Design" cooking right now.....


 
  
 Any chance of us getting a "Wizard Design" from you?


----------



## FullCircle

rubick said:


> Any chance of us getting a "Wizard Design" from you?


----------



## Q Mass

fullcircle said:


> I've got a "Wizard Design" cooking right now.....


 
 What is that device?
 If I had ho hazard a guess I'd say it looked like a router of some kind?


----------



## Cryok95

fullcircle said:


> I've got a "Wizard Design" cooking right now.....


 


 Congratulations on the opening of Noble Audio!
  
 If you could share, just for fun, what exactly is this?
 I have no idea but i'm gonna guess it's a handheld UV light?


----------



## tomscy2000

Looks more like a saw (Dremel-like).
  
 UV guns are usually like the ones used in dental offices:


----------



## n0str3ss

fullcircle said:


>


 
 Haha


----------



## zerocoool

What type of wax used for coating the impressions,  Is it like hot wax in Hair Removal?


----------



## YogiNC

Newbie to the forum.  What a great thread.  TONS of great info and lots of informed (through knowledge or hard knocks) opinions.  I'm considering making a pair based on the CI and TWFK drivers.  Has anyone considered making a wiki?  Sort of a way to boil down what floats to the top.  108 pages is A LOT of posts to read to get to "the good stuff".  Anyway glad to be here and looking forward to taking the "journey".


----------



## garcsa

Hi there,
 Please show me some eBay  links to buy  acrylic mould material to make my CIEM housing. Thanks!


----------



## kernel8888

Anyone else used minicircuits.com? is this a practical and usable source for crossovers?


----------



## JonSeagull

Has anyone here made any DIY universals? I know it probably seems counterintuitive. If you're going to make your own IEMs you may as well make them custom to fit your soundholes right? Regardless, I think some well designed/crafted universals would be really super.


----------



## kernel8888

That's my plan, to make a universal acrylic shell such as the heir 5.0 or 1plus2 to fit 6+ drivers. Only advantage I see to a custom is possible very slight increase in sq, but I don't know if that is even true given all of the other factors involved with tuning. I've also never had a custom isolate as well as say a shure universal, and universals win on the convenience factor as well. Plus I can share my creation with the world


----------



## Nyanman

hi, is it possible to fit the tf 10 drivers into a shure 535 shell? http://www.lunashops.com/goods.php?id=3846 i heard someone had done it before


----------



## piotrus-g

nyanman said:


> hi, is it possible to fit the tf 10 drivers into a shure 535 shell? http://www.lunashops.com/goods.php?id=3846 i heard someone had done it before


 

 shouldn't be a problem. Both SE535 and TF10 are based on the same drivers.
 But the outcome of the sound will be much much different between SE shell and UE shell due to the nozzle, size and length.


----------



## Nyanman

Thanks,someone said they sounded similar,but I was honestly lookin for a bit more treble and mids. Can I swap the high driver filters?


----------



## piotrus-g

nyanman said:


> Thanks,someone said they sounded similar,but I was honestly lookin for a bit more treble and mids. Can I swap the high driver filters?


 
 tweeter has 1500 Ohm damper I believe if you go with 680 you'll get good result, but you might end up with sibilance


----------



## Nyanman

How can I swap the damper out? Is it reversible? Where do I order from?


----------



## piotrus-g

nyanman said:


> How can I swap the damper out? Is it reversible? Where do I order from?


 

 yes. You can buy them from mouser or digikey


----------



## RealSpark

I have one question. 
 When my UV acrylic cured, the surface is still quite oily or sticky. 
 How do you guys solve this problem? Did you use anything to wash it?


----------



## Cryok95

That's known as an  "inhibition layer". Use an organic solvent to get rid of it and follow the instructions.


----------



## RealSpark

cryok95 said:


> That's known as an  "inhibition layer". Use an organic solvent to get rid of it and follow the instructions.


 
 Do you know any name of the organic solvent that can use?


----------



## piotrus-g

realspark said:


> Do you know any name of the organic solvent that can use?


 

 Glycerin


----------



## TimOgawa

guys, what is the material used to make the hard shell? (aside from the UV cure-able resin)


----------



## tsn141

timogawa said:


> guys, what is the material used to make the hard shell? (aside from the UV cure-able resin)


 
 Cold cure acrylic,Dental acrylic also can be used.


----------



## Cryok95

piotrus-g said:


> Glycerin


 
  
 I don't think glycerine is an organic solvent. The inhibition layer forms on the part that is in contact with the atmosphere.
 Glycerine is used to provide an atmosphere free environment(i suspect it's probably due to oxygen or smth) so the inhibition layer does not form. That's why some companies use a machine that cures the shell in an inert gas atmosphere to prevent the formation of this sticky layer.
  
 You can try ethanol or lighter fluid.


----------



## tomscy2000

> Originally Posted by *Cryok95* /img/forum/go_quote.gif  I don't think glycerine is an organic solvent. The inhibition layer forms on the part that is in contact with the atmosphere. Glycerine is used to provide an atmosphere free environment(i suspect it's probably due to oxygen or smth) so the inhibition layer does not form. That's why some companies use a machine that cures the shell in an inert gas atmosphere to prevent the formation of this sticky layer. You can try ethanol or lighter fluid.


 

 Glycerin is, in fact, organic. I don't know whether it'll solvate the layer better than other solvents, but it is definitely an organic solvent by definition, and is less polar than most linear chain alcohols.


----------



## Cryok95

tomscy2000 said:


> Glycerin is, in fact, organic. I don't know whether it'll solvate the layer better than other solvents, but it is definitely an organic solvent by definition, and is less polar than most linear chain alcohols.


 

 Hmm okay that i did not know. I just thought it was some sort of water based emollient. Well, this explains quite a bit.


----------



## tomscy2000

cryok95 said:


> water based emollient.


 
  
 It is indeed used in a lot of soaps and skin cleansers, but that's glycerin soap, which contains more than just the glycerol.


----------



## piotrus-g

let's just say that glycerin or glycerin based liquids (f.e. Glysol) are used by most IEM manufacturers and are recommended by companies like Dreve for the most basic type of UV curing (without gas)


----------



## shakur1996

Uff... I went through the entire thread. Interesting. I will search for more information on particular topics on the web. 

However, one questions still bothers me - I understand that one BA may be lounder from another BA in the bass region, that one may balance the sound between woofer and tweeter if there is a diference in loudness, but how one can change the way a given woofer/tweeter sounds like i.e. how come one IEM has a tight and punchy bass with quick attack and the second has a slow, dynamic like bass? Can this sound characteristics of a woofer be changed? Or simply one has to take proper BA which means that altough one BA has similar graph in bass region in comparison to other BA they can have far way diferent type of bass?
Can someone please explain this to me?


----------



## kernel8888

From my understanding bass quantity and quality can be determined by a number of factors including tube length and diameter, with a narrow diameter being preferred. Also venting, filters (dampers), number of drivers, size of drivers, and crossover points factor in as well. Don't have much experience in experimenting with these though, just based on some extensive research.


----------



## MIke M

to use gylcerine: after the initial cure, re cure them submerged in a clear glass bowl of glycerine


----------



## tsn141

shakur1996 said:


> Uff... I went through the entire thread. Interesting. I will search for more information on particular topics on the web.
> 
> However, one questions still bothers me - I understand that one BA may be lounder from another BA in the bass region, that one may balance the sound between woofer and tweeter if there is a diference in loudness, but how one can change the way a given woofer/tweeter sounds like i.e. how come one IEM has a tight and punchy bass with quick attack and the second has a slow, dynamic like bass? Can this sound characteristics of a woofer be changed? Or simply one has to take proper BA which means that altough one BA has similar graph in bass region in comparison to other BA they can have far way diferent type of bass?
> Can someone please explain this to me?


 
  Change parameters and  see how changed I recommend changing by filter position ,most effective one.


----------



## shakur1996

Basically my question is connected with one of the first steps which one need to take while developing his own CIEMs I.e. Driver selection. If the quality (not quantity) of for example bass can be changed by filter placement, tube lenght and diameter then it does not matter which driver for bass is selected provided that in terms of quantity of bass a given driver is sufficient.


----------



## piotrus-g

shakur1996 said:


> Basically my question is connected with one of the first steps which one need to take while developing his own CIEMs I.e. Driver selection. If the quality (not quantity) of for example bass can be changed by filter placement, tube lenght and diameter then it does not matter which driver for bass is selected provided that in terms of quantity of bass a given driver is sufficient.


 
 Actually Bass cannot change due to filter placement (unless you put like 3x4700 Ohm in the tube) or tube length unless you're willing to put few meters of tube in the IEM lol.
 There's no simple answer to this question. Each driver provides different bass response due to different diaphragm and motors. It's best to learn what to expect from which driver. F.e. CI driver will have full bodied bass offering nice rumble but slightly shifted to mid bass, 3800 driver will have extremely low bass giving "speaker-like" sensation (with open vents). 33A007 will offer nice trade off between depth, resolution and extension. I'm talking about drivers as they are, of course this may be changed with proper crossover design, say with driver in reversed phase that will level bass response of particular driver.


----------



## shakur1996

Piotrek, this is the answer which I was looking for. Thanks. So, although you can alter bass response of a given driven by crossover, acoustic design, in order to achieve certain type of bass (eg full bodied instead of fast,Etys like) one have to listen to certain group of drivers in order to hear how particular drivers sounds like or alternatively one may rely on the descriptions such as Peter's above description.
Piotrek, is there anywhere a summary how basically given drivers sounds like (I'm looking for information simillar to the ones which you provided in your above post about bass)?


----------



## piotrus-g

shakur1996 said:


> Piotrek, this is the answer which I was looking for. Thanks. So, although you can alter bass response of a given driven by crossover, acoustic design, in order to achieve certain type of bass (eg full bodied instead of fast,Etys like) one have to listen to certain group of drivers in order to hear how particular drivers sounds like or alternatively one may rely on the descriptions such as Peter's above description.
> Piotrek, is there anywhere a summary how basically given drivers sounds like (I'm looking for information similar to the ones which you provided in your above post about bass)?


 
 You know... you could have called me 
 hahah
  
 Anyways, yeah, that's basically it. Although it's easier to make sloppy bass fast (closing vents, adding resistance) than other way around.
  
 I'm pretty sure, there was some information in this particular thread how each driver sounds without heavy tuning, though if you said you'd gone thought it then I guess I'm wrong.


----------



## MuZo2

You can also go through the chart in this thread and then find how each IEM sounds.Though you wont know how they are tuned through crossover and dampers but you can get rough understanding.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/604851/chart-balanced-armature-based-in-ear-monitors-technical-characteristics/75#post_9859498


----------



## shakur1996

Peter I know that I could have call you, but I know that you are busy nowadays and I was thinking that this information would be helpful also for others.

There are no information about some of the drivers in this thread but there is no comprehsensive description of all or the majority of Sonion's and Knowles' drivers (at leats similar to what you have written above).

P.s. Piotrek, but I will definitely ask some questions in the above respect once we meet.


----------



## TimOgawa

can someone post the steps to make a hard acrylic shell?


----------



## Mython

timogawa said:


> can someone post the steps to make a hard acrylic shell?


 
  
 Well, just to offer you a grounding in the topic, here are some videos on how they're done _commercially_, but there are some other ways to accomplish it, if you don't have the same resources - others who have actually gone down that road will be better able to advise you.
  
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/578855/things-to-consider-before-getting-your-custom-iem-impressions-done-the-perfect-fit#post_7871678


----------



## kernel8888

I am having a hard time finding where to get the right type of acrylic resin for the shell, I know that there is polyester resin available for decent prices but it isn't the right type as it smells and can cause allergic reactions, and i believe the same is true with epoxy resin. 

I believe medical grade acrylic resin is the ideal material, but where can it be found? Is that even the right stuff?


----------



## Mython

kernel8888 said:


> I am having a hard time finding where to get the right type of acrylic resin for the shell, I know that there is polyester resin available for decent prices but it isn't the right type as it smells and can cause allergic reactions, and i believe the same is true with epoxy resin.
> 
> I believe medical grade acrylic resin is the ideal material, but where can it be found? Is that even the right stuff?


 
  
 Yes, you're absolutely correct that you mustn't use most generally-available polyester or epoxy resins. I have experience of both, from other hobbies of mine, but I don't have experience of medical grade resins, so others here are better able to give you appropriate recommendations. If you search through this thread, I know, for a fact, that you'll find past discussions on this issue.


----------



## fatman711

Has anyone made any DIY universals yet?


----------



## Mython

fatman711 said:


> Has anyone made any DIY universals yet?


 
  
 I think quite a few people have used Shure universal shells, which are available on the market.


----------



## MIke M

Yup


----------



## shakur1996

piotrus-g said:


> . I'm talking about drivers as they are, of course this may be changed with proper crossover design, say with driver in reversed phase that will level bass response of particular driver.




As I understand from your post tube diameter and lenght and filter placement cannot shape bass characteristics of a given driven. Now you are saying that proper crossover design may alter bass of a given drivers. Are you referring just to the FR response i.e. increasing or decreasing particular region of Hz, or are you referring to altering "bass character" of a given driver i.e. full body, slow vs tight, ultra fast etc.? If the latter then I'm a little bit surprised since I thought that that the typical electrical crossover is just a bunch of caps and/or resistors which may impact FR response but not the character of a particular HZ region.


----------



## MuZo2

As per Sonion document & chart I dont see tube length affecting bass frequency response. The chart shows highs being affected.


----------



## piotrus-g

shakur1996 said:


> As I understand from your post tube diameter and lenght and filter placement cannot shape bass characteristics of a given driven. Now you are saying that proper crossover design may alter bass of a given drivers. Are you referring just to the FR response i.e. increasing or decreasing particular region of a driver, or you are referring to altering "bass character" of a given driver i.e. full body, slow vs tight, ultra fast etc.? If the latter then I'm a little bit surprised since I thought that that the typical electrical crossover is just a bunch of caps and/or resistors.


 
 Tubing and damper will shape overall frequency response. With high damper value sound will become more bass-prominent. Also few dampers in series will result in low-pass filter which could actually shape bass response. The same thing is with tub diameter. Very very small tube (~0,1mm) will work as a low pass filter shaping bass response. But those are pretty extreme conditions rarely seen in IEMs.
 Resistor in series with driver will actually cut bass quantity but will also make bass faster more precise. Good case-study would be CI driver which is warm and slightly bloated in sound but with resistor it becomes quite flat and fast, but would probably retain it's depth or note texture.

 As for further crossover details I'll use graph. Below you see measurement of drivers. Both graphs present the same drivers with the exception green graph has woofers wired in opposite polarization than midrange and tweeter the result is canceling of low frequencies between two drivers.
 Cap and resistor values, tube lengths and diameters are exactly the same, the only thing changed is polarization. Result: One set will sound warm and smooth, second will be more precise, faster, with more mid-presence overall brighter sound.


----------



## kiddybear

Any one has an idea to make crossover for CI 22955 (woofer), DTEC 30008(Mid), TWFK(Tweeter)?
 What kind of dampers be used?


----------



## kiddybear

"woofers wired in opposite polarization" do you mean solder it in reverse (+,-)?


----------



## Mython

kiddybear said:


> "woofers wired in opposite polarization" do you mean solder it in reverse (+,-)?


 
  
 Yep


----------



## Dan Jarros

Hello all. This will be my first post to the thread. Awesome that it has been going on for so long. I have some various questions about iem construction that I would welcome any advice on. I've read all posts on this thread and have started buying some supplies to start my own builds. First, a little about what I'm doing and why.
  
   I'm a musician and bandleader for a band that plays frequently. I run the P.A. on gigs. For six years we have used in ear monitors for the stage and will never be going back to on-stage speakers. I have always purchased iems for all members of the band. We have used custom molded single or dual driver designs from good companies. Most sets have lasted about one year on average before having connectors go bad or being sweat out. Needless to say even with more economical cans this is still a considerable expense for the band. Worse still is the down time of getting new ones made.  I'm a very handy guy and have decided to try and make them myself. I have made some decisions already about what I want and do not want in my design.  Maybe some of you can lend me your expertise regarding the design idea.
  
   First off I will be using the Knowles dual driver design which is basically two BA drivers put together with one sound hole. I will use one acoustic damper in the connecting tube. I know there are TONS of driver/crossover possibilities here but for starters I'm shooting really straight on this one. If all goes well I'll use the newer triple driver on the next set of cans. This brings me to my first questions. What inner dimension tubing can I use for the Knowles GQ-30783-000? I bought some 2mm x 4mm silicone tubing but it's too big for the sound hole. Also, what do you use to secure it to the driver? I got some 1500 ohm and 2400 ohm dampers to smooth the peaks. Any opinions which might serve that driver better? I'll probably be placing the damper about mid way in the tubing which will be no longer than half an inch I'm guessing at this point. 
  
   As for the cable I'll probably be using donor cable from some of our graveyard iems. I want them to be fixed cord because they will break less often and if they do I'll be the one fixing them.
  
   It seems that DIY acrylic shells have been the toughest part for many here. I won't be outsourcing them as that does not help my cause because of slow turnaround. I have some stuff and some ideas so I would really like some feedback on this part. I'm going to try a UV curing acrylic. I just received a tube of Loctite 3972. It's perfectly clear with a syrupy consistency. A test drop cured hard in sunlight after about two hours. I'm going to use a 36 watt UV hand box for acrylic nails. It should show up soon. This should closely mimic the processes shown in the factory videos of some of the pro companies. I've been pondering what to use for the negative cast to form the shell. I'm thinking of using clear ballistics gel. There's a company that sells a mixture in two different densities. clearballistics.com/    I'm thinking the stiffer stuff should be able to form on a wax coated silicone ear mold that's been properly dremeled. It would be clear so the UV light could do it's job on the liquid acrylic.  Has anyone done anything similar to this? 
  
 Anyway, I'll be documenting as I go but I'll take all the advice I can get before I jump in. 
  
 Thanks


----------



## Q Mass

Couldn't you save yourself a lot of effort if you re-use the shells of your 'graveyard' CIEMS?


----------



## MuZo2

dan jarros said:


> Needless to say even with more economical cans this is still a considerable expense for the band. Worse still is the down time of getting new ones made.  I'm a very handy guy and have decided to try and make them myself.


 
 I dont want to discourage you but DIY will be more expensive. The drivers if bought in small quantities will be more expensive. The whole trial and error with ear impressions and diy UV shells will also be more money. Other equipment like soldering iron , UV curing and crossover electronics, measuring mic etc. Also note the fit can be an issue with DIY, if you play for long hours with band it can be bit discomforting. 
  
 The reshells are lot cheaper these days you can reshell your old ciems or else other thing you can do is you can get normal iem where you can change cables and connectors and then just make custom tips from some professional guys.


----------



## tsn141

There is no guaranteefor good sound.


----------



## Q Mass

I dunno, a reshell only saves the cost of the drivers, which as I understand it are the problematic element in this case.
If the current shells are already comfortable then putting new drivers in them seems like a viable option.


----------



## piotrus-g

You guys do know how to discourage one from doing some fun project...
  
 Dan Jarros, good luck with your DIY. Obviously it takes trials and errors to make proper shell and IEMs and it's far more time/labor/cash-consuming than getting remold or even new IEMs. But the fun is completely different


----------



## kiddybear

Absolutely right!!!!


----------



## Dan Jarros

It will be more economical than the ones I purchase. No doubt. A dual driver set from a company will be $300+. Here's a simple breakdown of what I'm shooting for:
  
 Knowles dual drivers- $106 a pair.  Triples would only be $140 a pair
  
 Dampers- $5
  
 Tubing -$1    I know you shouldn't use shrink tubing. Ebay stores are selling 2mm or 1mm silicone tubing for less that 2$ a yard. Anybody used this? Or does anybody know a distinct advantage for using the expensive hearing aid stuff?
  
 Cabling-   free-$25   some companies are selling iem cables for their product at this price. I've got at least 4 sets already from dead cans.
  
  
 Silicone ear mold kit - 2$   Mega-Sils from an audiology online store
  
 Wax for mold coating - $.02
  
 Clear 20% gelatin ballistics gel for negative cast (if it works) -  $12/lb - reusable lifetime supply
  
 Clear containers for negative-  $1   art store supply or other
  
 Loctite UV acrylic material for shells-  $20 on ebay  - probably enough to do 8 sets.
  
 36W acrylic nail oven -  $20 on ebay
  
 Dremel-  got it
  
 Time -   got it
  
  
 So, it's not gonna be close to what I'm paying now. And I'm not using $12 drivers like some of the cans we have. And I could do this in 2 days and that's the most important part. 
  
 All I need is some people with experience to help me with some of the details. So, my biggest questions so far:
  
  
 Tubing size/supply for Knowles BA driver (smaller than 2mm ID) ?
  
 Glue/ other way to attach tubing to the driver ?
  
 Location and ohm recommendation of damper inside the tube ? I currently have 1500 or 2400 ohm.
  
 Experience of anybody who has tried to do casting with UV acrylic material. Anybody know of a better clear material for the negative? Has anybody tried to use Knox gelatin for a negative cast? If so, is it strong enough to hold form and is it clear enough (it's brownish) for UV light to pass through?
  
 Thanks


----------



## MuZo2

Check this thread too http://www.head-fi.org/t/656122/diy-shell-making-re-shell-guide-w-some-pictures-new-finished-ciem-pics#post_10180981


----------



## Dan Jarros

OK. Great link. Looks like the Knox gelatin could work.


----------



## Dan Jarros

I have successfully created acrylic shells using UV curing acrylic. I've got pics and will post what I did soon. I'm still trying to get some info on how to attach the tubing to the driver. I've got 2mm tube and the dampers will fit in that. But the sound hole on the Knowles BA is too small. Suggestions?
  
 DJ


----------



## piotrus-g

dan jarros said:


> I have successfully created acrylic shells using UV curing acrylic. I've got pics and will post what I did soon. I'm still trying to get some info on how to attach the tubing to the driver. I've got 2mm tube and the dampers will fit in that. But the sound hole on the Knowles BA is too small. Suggestions?
> 
> DJ


 
 super glue


----------



## MuZo2

May be you can add small tubing on Knowles shroud and then the 2mm( Something like W3)


----------



## MuZo2




----------



## Dan Jarros

I wasn't able to post pic here (stupid) so I've got a video of the pics from my first build. 
  

  
 Aside from equipment costs which would include a dremel tool with various bits, a UV curing station, UV curing gel, soldering stuff, and some cheap stuff like silicone tubing gelatin, glycerin and shrink tubing the total cost of the cans was less than $115. That's using the Knowles full range dual driver with single sound port, Knowles dampers and a borrowed cable from a dead set of cans. Here's the quick rundown of the process:
  
 Molds were created using megasils and dremeled to shape.
  
 The molds were dipped in wax from tealight candles melted in a can.
  
 The negative mold was created with 1 package of knox gelatin, 1/2 a cup of water and a tablespoon of glycerin heated in a microwave for 35 seconds. The mixture was cooled in the fridge until room temp and the wax coated earpieces were lowered in with thread and suspended in the liquid. The first mold was pulled after 2 hours and was stiff enough to create the shell. The second one was left overnight and the gel was noticeably stiffer and better for the task.
  
 The gelatin molds were filled to the top with the Loctite UV curing gel purchased on EBay for $20. A black cap was placed on top so the liquid could be poured out after 45 seconds of curing in the 36 Watt nail salon UV station. The excess liquid was drained into a small opaque container (contact holder worked perfectly)  for further use. The negative was placed back inside and allowed to cure for 5 more minutes.
  
 The shells were removed and the top ring cut off with a Dremel cut off wheel to form the back plate. It was placed on glass and UV gel poured inside. Into the UV oven for 5 minutes. I chose to veneer tiger maple onto the plate and seal it with the same UV gel. The hole for the tubing was drilled from both sides of the shell.
  
 Shrink tubing attached to the BA driver, heated in place and then super glued. The shrink tubing slid inside the 2mm-4mm silicone tubing and was also super glued in place. A 2500 ohm damper was place in the silicone tubing half an inch from the driver. The tube was then carefully fed through the shell and the driver wired up with a "helping hands" type soldering station. 
  
 The back plates slid into place and the gap closed with more UV gel. My cables were hard wired with the gel giving it strength.
  
 The buds were lightly sanded for imperfections and then painted with UV gel and a nail polish brush and cured in the UV oven. 
  
  
 They sound great and seal completely and comfortably. I'll be using the triple drivers next time around.
  
 So there you go, acrylic shell CIEMs that sound great for a fair price. Any questions?


----------



## MuZo2

Congrats!!! Great work for first try. Sound & fit wise how they compare to your previous CIEM?


----------



## MuZo2

I think you need some post count before you can attach pictures here.


----------



## Dan Jarros

In a nutshell they sound great and I will feel good about building and maintaining all the CIEMs for the band. I think with a little experimentation I could make the shells a little clearer and visually appealing like the pro companies. It's a little tricky with the Loctite stuff I used because it felt a little rubbery even after curing and any drilling or imperfections would still stay a little rough looking if you put more acrylic over that. Also the wax layer may have given a bit of orange peel texture to the initial pour of the shells. It might be possible to use uncoated silicone molds and then brush in a layer or two of UV gel after the initial casting to get a better seal. 
  
  The fixed cord idea worked fine but I would consider trying some of the brass looking round connectors I've seen some companies use. Has anyone used them? If so is there a supplier for them? I'm not fond of the two prong cable connectors as they have broken on our gigs many times.
  
 In terms of the Knowles BA drivers I would say they give great detail. I feel that the drivers may not be matched well. The construction on both ears is basically identical with the tube length, dampers and gluing but from my very first listen I felt the soundstage was shifted a bit to the left especially in the low end. Some people say break in for BA drivers is important and some say it isn't. Perhaps the right driver will "loosen up" in time. Any thoughts on this? In my experience with BA drivers I feel they all need a heavy amount of eq-ing to make them really sound correct. Even though they are "full range" drivers, there's nothing below 40hz and nothing above 13k just as the Digi-Key spec sheet said. So on my IPhone I used the EQ10 app which gives you graphic or parametric EQ and balance. The best tones came with a lot of gain around 60hz and everything above 13k all the way up. I also shifted the balance about 10% to the right (unfortunate). The upper midrange is VERY sensitive between 1k and 7k. It makes sense that there are so many dampers to tame this volatile zone of BA drivers.


----------



## Mython

dan jarros said:


> I'm not fond of the two prong cable connectors as they have broken on our gigs many times.


 
  
  
 I appreciate that it's not easy to do it, but have you considered making recessed sockets? I have found these much more durable than flush-mounted sockets.


----------



## MIke M

your channel imbalance most likely has nothing to do with burn in
  
 1) tube not airtight to driver (bass roll off occurs)
 2) glue blocking part ot the sound port of the driver
 3) bad driver


----------



## Mython

mike m said:


> your channel imbalance most likely has nothing to do with burn in
> 
> 1) tube not airtight to driver (bass roll off occurs)
> 2) glue blocking part ot the sound port of the driver
> 3) bad driver


 
  
 4) ear wax


----------



## piotrus-g

mike m said:


> your channel imbalance most likely has nothing to do with burn in
> 
> 1) tube not airtight to driver (bass roll off occurs)
> 2) glue blocking part ot the sound port of the driver
> 3) bad driver


 

 5) connection issues - ground is soldered or touches positive terminal. or one driver is wired with reversed polarization and your brain can't make sens of the same sound coming in two different phases.
  
 My guess though is the first point.  driver plays into shell space rather than tubing.


----------



## MIke M

See if you can suck air through it, if you can, that's your issue


----------



## Mython

DELETE


----------



## MIke M

Not unless you can suck a golf ball through a garden hose, LOL


----------



## Dan Jarros

I was concerned with using super glue. The vapors are strong and I felt it could be possible that the vapor could seize the armature. Overall though I felt it was a pretty clean surgery for both drivers. I did do an interesting experiment though. I had the drivers playing when I cut the excess tubing out of the ear hole. I cut the tubing in small increments and you could REALLY hear the EQ changing out of the hole. A lot of the comments here say that tube length and diameter have more to do with the sound than the dampening and after hearing that I'd say that's probably true.


----------



## Mython

Quote:


dan jarros said:


> I was concerned with using super glue. The vapors are strong and I felt it could be possible that the vapor could seize the armature.


 
  
 Interesting point. I don't know if that would happen, but I understand your concern. The vapour is certainly strong enough to fix fingerprints.
  
  
  
  
 Quote:


> dan jarros said:
> 
> 
> > I had the drivers playing when I cut the excess tubing out of the ear hole. I cut the tubing in small increments and you could REALLY hear the EQ changing out of the hole. A lot of the comments here say that tube length and diameter have more to do with the sound than the dampening and after hearing that I'd say that's probably true.


 
  
  
 Did you happen to see the fun and games Peter had with his Miracle re-work? Just look at that sound tube! (I'm full of admiration for this particular job, Peter)
  
 https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.471825356271624.1073741835.223884597732369&type=3
  
  
  
 .


----------



## Dan Jarros

Is that new shells with 3 sound tubes? Yikes.


----------



## Moz-Art

Hi,

I've been reading this thread with much interest, and it's been a lot to read so I decided to post my question due to a lot of different opinions and options but did not exactly found what I'm looking for.

I got my clear hollow molds ready and I'm now trying to finalize my speaker setup. I have decided to build a three way system with a passive crossover. My goal is to have a reference speaker sound. I'm going to buy speakers from knowles, didn't find many other companies.

If you want to build a three way system, you want to have the best speaker for each frequency band with the best response, so a flat line and not too many peaks. So that brings me to my first question. What speakers to use from the Knowles product range and at what frequency should I split? What are your experiences with the Knowles product range? Is there another supplier (better)?

I also didn't find a supplier for the resistors to create the crossover. Does Knowles sell these too? Help is welcome. 

One thing I don't understand is the phase shift between speakers, can someone explain this in English? And what about ohm! What is the effect of it on the speakers, is it something to worry about?

Then there is the issue of the dampers. I want a reference speaker sound and so I'm a little scared that the use of dampers will color and shape the sound too much. Is this true?

Where to buy the cable and female connector? 

Looking forward to your replies.


----------



## Nyanman

Luna shops has a pretty good selection of cable related bits including the male and female connectors for a reasonable price,however,shipping takes weeks.


----------



## ThatOneGuy37

So i've just spent a while reading through this post and couldn't seem to find any budget ideas for the drivers. I've already spent over $100 in supplies and don't really want to spend over $60 more on drivers since I was originally looking to keep it cheap. And does anyone know of any places that I can readily them buy in small quantities of 1 or 2 drivers? The only places i've found so far are mousers knowles audio section, and everything that actually got a review and/ or is in stock costs $40+ each. If anything, could someone just sell me their extra drivers? I'm only looking for a bass/mid and a tweeter for each ear, or if that would cost too much, just a nice Mid that reaches high and low (just something that would sound nicer than my current klipsch s4).


----------



## MuZo2

Buying new drivers will be expensive than buying decent new iem eg Astrotec AX30/35A. Diy  is not about cost saving. If  you  want to go with DIY you can try buying old IEMs 3 drivers will be hard to implement . Go with TWFK or ED29689.


----------



## ThatOneGuy37

Thanks, i've come to realize that after a lot of searching around. Should I just get 1 TWFK receiver for each ear and have it directly connect to the headphone line or should I be using a resistor or capacitor of some kind(please state any recommendations, and the source is just an iphone)? Sorry if i seem to asking a lot of questions, but I never got into this electronic DIY stuff until recently and just wanted to challenge myself rather than going an easy route.


----------



## Moz-Art

On the technical sheet of the TWFK you van see that a capacitor used To make a low pass. You only have To decide at what frequency you want to cut it and order the right capacitor.

http://www.knowles.com/eng/content/download/4382/60341/version/2/file/TWFK-30017-000.pdf

I made a new thread about crossover networks where you can find documents about all knowles speakers with impedance chart. Enter the ohm into a crossover calculator to find out what capacitor to get.

http://www.head-fi.org/t/709859/multiple-balanced-armature-speaker-systems-with-crossover-networks


----------



## ThatOneGuy37

Sorry, I only understood some of that. I'm pretty sure that low pass means that it cuts out the highs a little bit and makes the lower pitches more prominent, which is cool, I might go for a small one just to make it sound well rounded and not as sharp as some other people have suggested. However, i'm not very good at reading the TWFK technical specs, so I don't know what frequency to cut it off at, or which capacitor to use for that frequency. Also it has 2 ohm numbers, and i'm not quite sure which one to use to get the right resistor. I'm just using this as a stand alone driver, so if anyone has some specific examples of resistor/ capacitor combinations to get the warmest, fullest range out of this driver, that would be a huge help. I don't really need an explanation b/c this is just a test pair, i'm going for all of this crossover stuff next time around, but for right now, I just need some capacitor and resistor names thrown at me.


----------



## Dan Jarros

OKAY....In response to guy37 and others that say DIY is not about saving $ I present my new cans. As some of you know I've been trying to come up with a cost effective way to repair/ produce CIEMs for my band. I did a set wit Knowles dual drivers and it didn't cost a lot. These will surely tip the cost effective scale of CIEMs. These are Sennheieser IE4s we've kept for years as spares in the band. You can get them for around $40. These shells were created with UV acrylic nail hardener from Ebay for $4.99!!! In my opinion this has been the missing link for many DIYers not making their own shells.
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/130869084966?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649
  
 There is one piece of shrink wrap tubing over the sound hole of the drivers and shrunk to 2mm-4mm for the sound tube. They are transparent blue because I had some concrete dye left over from a project in the house. It only took a couple of granules to give them that color. 
  
 Basically if you follow my procedure for casting shells with gelatin and glycerin and use the cheap UV stuff you can produce CIEMS for almost NOTHING over the cost of whatever drivers you want to use. These units sound nearly as good as the Knowles duals I made and have tons more bass. They sound better than they ever did as non-customs.


----------



## ThatOneGuy37

I wish I had known about some of this stuff beforehand. I ended up purchasing all of my materials before i researched it enough. Now my materials are coming in and i'm about to do the old fashioned way of  making the shell with polyester resin and dremeling out the unneeded resin to make room for the driver and its wiring and tubing.


----------



## MuZo2

dan jarros said:


> OKAY....In response to guy37 and others that say DIY is not about saving $ I present my new cans. As some of you know I've been trying to come up with a cost effective way to repair/ produce CIEMs for my band. I did a set wit Knowles dual drivers and it didn't cost a lot. These will surely tip the cost effective scale of CIEMs. These are Sennheieser IE4s we've kept for years as spares in the band. You can get them for around $40. These shells were created with UV acrylic nail hardener from Ebay for $4.99!!! In my opinion this has been the missing link for many DIYers not making their own shells.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/130869084966?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649


 
 Is it safe for ears ?


----------



## Q Mass

That's great man, well done.

You'd think that something intended for use on the human body would be safe, but I too would want to be sure, I think I'd skip the concrete dye myself, but I think I'll give your nail hardener a try!


----------



## Q Mass

Oh, and:
More pic's!


----------



## Dan Jarros

It's acrylic so it's good to go. Acrylic is inert to skin.


----------



## audiofreakie

Need info.
if we buy balance armature driver from mouser. They sell per pieces ( quantity 1 piece only) or a pair ( quantity 2 pieces)?

thank you.


----------



## MuZo2

It is one piece, not a pair.


----------



## audiofreakie

MuZo2, thank you (y)


----------



## tsn141

.


----------



## MIke M

Tungsten tooth carbide


----------



## Dan Jarros

OK. I've completed another set of CIEMs. Basically they are clear acrylic shells with Astrotec AX35 monitors in them. If you didn't know, the Astrotecs are affordable ($70) hybrid monitors with a dynamic speaker for the low spectrum and a balanced armature for the highs. Sound-wise, they are much better than my Sennheiser IE-4 and my Knowles dual driver designs. The Astrotecs are physically a bit large in the shell but I made it work. The dynamic speaker is much more suited for the lows and it really shines in the CIEM shells.
   So I did some experimenting with the different UV acrylics I've used and here's my verdict. The $5 nail salon stuff from Ebay looks, smells, flows, and cures just like the expensive Loctite stuff. That's what I'll use from now on. So total cost of the best CIEMs I have; less than $80.


----------



## MuZo2

Cool, more pictures please. Do you know what drivers from knowles was in Astrotec ?


----------



## tomscy2000

muzo2 said:


> Cool, more pictures please. Do you know what drivers from knowles was in Astrotec ?


 
  
 Astrotec officials say the AX-35 uses the ED-29689...


----------



## MuZo2

Oh then its a steal at that price.


----------



## Dan Jarros

It's a good thing they didn't use the ED-209 drivers.


----------



## MuZo2

dan jarros said:


>


 
 Did you put the whole iem inside ?


----------



## Dan Jarros

Yes. 4mm-2mm shrink tubing in place of the rubber earpieces.


----------



## wz2000

After a long time in development, my latest IEMs are done.
  
 5 drivers per ear (CI,DTEC and TWFK), with an external battery powered, 3-way, 4th order active crossover system feeding them. Simply amazing sound, easily rivals some of my high quality full sized cans.


----------



## MuZo2

Great work!!! did you design the crossover your self or is off shelf.


----------



## wz2000

muzo2 said:


> Great work!!! did you design the crossover your self or is off shelf.


 
  
 The crossover is my own design. Based on the Linkwitz-Riley crossover, with input and output buffers at unity gain. All-in-all that's 25 opamps  
  
 Powered from a 3.7V cellphone battery, the power supply is split with a virtual ground to ±1.85V and also includes battery charging circuitry. Should have a running time of about 40 hours, but I'm still on the first charge so that's not confirmed yet.


----------



## gimk

Hi all. For a long time I dream of custom earphones but i'm a student that have no enough money to afford any interesting models or probably any custom. Therefore the subject of creation of custom earphones is very interesting to me. Allow for a moment that I can make ear molds at the doctor and on these molds i can make an acrylic form, with it problems aren't present. The main problem with purchase of armature drivers and other equipment and sequence of soldering these elements. For several days I read all tread and approximately represent what drivers I want. i love UM miracle and want to do something like this.
 here is link where i found what drivers are use in different ciem
 http://player.ru/attachment.php?attachmentid=44226&d=1349783572
 Because of i live in Russia i have a problems with deliver from mouser(150$) and i found drivers on taobao,here is link
 http://shop33638502.taobao.com/?spm=2013.1.0.0.yEjrqz
 in this shop i can buy twfk and ci22955 or dinamic driver? and filters, i think to get tubing in drugstore, or somewhere else, no matter about this
 so.. there is a lot of questions about soldering and what capacitors use, for example if i use 2 twfk+22955 how can i connect all this? How connect 4 twfk + dinamic driver like in UM miracle? I plan to spend about $150-200 for all this idea.
 A lot of questions and few answers. I have a strong wish to systematize information and finally understand everything.


----------



## MuZo2

Hi if you are new to BA I would suggest to try simple things. Even a 2way would be complex to get it right and sounding good.
 $150-200 You cannot do 4 twfk + dinamic driver. At this budget I think you can do just twfk.
 I dont think someone here can help you with crossover design, you will have to try on your own, and without measuring rig you cannot get complex designs done. So my advice would be to keep it simple for DIY.


----------



## gimk

I have found this guy 
 http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=2013.1.0.0.KJJP1Y&scm=1007.10011.531.0&id=16821376539&pvid=37b9287a-406f-49ef-b5ff-010f2f0f731d#reviews
 and as i understand he can make any crossover you want, he has different options like a 2 drivers or 4 drivers crossover. Trying to contact with him and find out what is it.


----------



## MuZo2

He was not much helpful. Good luck!!!


----------



## Q Mass

wz2000 said:


> After a long time in development, my latest IEMs are done.
> 
> 5 drivers per ear (CI,DTEC and TWFK), with an external battery powered, 3-way, 4th order active crossover system feeding them. Simply amazing sound, easily rivals some of my high quality full sized cans.


 
 That's freaking incredible.
 Really, I envy the talent capable of this sort of thing.
  
 I don't know if you've already got some fancy faceplates on those beauties, but if not, and you like the look of something like these, PM me, I'd happily make you a pair like the bottom row ( sorry about the crap pic' ) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 :
 .


----------



## MuZo2

@wz2000 do you have any measurements?


----------



## wz2000

muzo2 said:


> @wz2000 do you have any measurements?


 
  
 Right now I only have some measurements from the unfinished stages when the drivers were still out of their shells. I'll try to get some done of the final product as well.


----------



## tranhieu

q mass said:


> That's freaking incredible.
> Really, I envy the talent capable of this sort of thing.
> 
> I don't know if you've already got some fancy faceplates on those beauties, but if not, and you like the look of something like these, PM me, I'd happily make you a pair like the bottom row ( sorry about the crap pic' )
> ...


 
 Are these CNC-ed? They look fabulous!


----------



## Q Mass

Thanks, glad you like them.
 They're all painstakingly hand made ( with cheap crappy tools too! ).
 The only machine made part is the large hole drilled in the 'keyhole' shaped plates.
 The texture on some is created by etching the alloy with acid.
  
 These were all sent to Phil at Cosmic Ears to see if he can make them work as faceplates, that is still a work in progress I believe.
 Aluminium is difficult to lacquer as paints tend not to stick without a special primer designed especially for aluminium, but this is opaque.
  
 I plan to try making my own shells at some point, but since I have zero electronics skills they'll have to simply be housings for IEM's.


----------



## wz2000

muzo2 said:


> @wz2000 do you have any measurements?


 
  

  
 Here's a frequency response graph I measured from the finished IEMs. I'm not sure if says too much, everyone has a different test setup that affects the curve. I couple the IEM to a WM-61a mic with a 6x20mm(DiameterxLength) silicone tube.
  
 I only use these measurements as a reference when I make any changes to the design.


----------



## MuZo2

nice you could get that TWFK to extend further. But I am wondering why CI is rolled off.or is it just measurement ? Did you get good seal with silicon tube.Do you have another iem which FR is available.May be you can check your measurement rig that way.


----------



## wz2000

I think the low end roll off is mostly due the measurement setup. I tend to see that kind of roll off often when I measure. Still, when I listen to these, the bass is quite powerful and deep, without being bloaty in the mid bass region.
 I can't say that there isn't any roll off for sure, but there's certainly not much of it.
 One thing I could try, since the DTEC can go pretty low as well, is to lower the crossover frequency further (currently about 110hz) and crank up the amplitude of the CI.
 If I increase the CI right now, I'll end up with too much on the >100hz region.


----------



## tranhieu

q mass said:


> Thanks, glad you like them.
> They're all painstakingly hand made ( with cheap crappy tools too! ).
> The only machine made part is the large hole drilled in the 'keyhole' shaped plates.
> The texture on some is created by etching the alloy with acid.
> ...


 
 The thought that you created them by hand never crossed my mind, I thought they were all machined! Great job!
  
 If it were me I would apply a layer of clear acrylic on top of the faceplate first before lacquering them. I believe that's what Cosmic Ears is doing with their Steampunk designs, unless you want to feel the aluminium texture.
  
 Anyway I look forward to the final product, very original indeed.


----------



## wjp007

Hi All,
 Great thread.  Looking to get my own project going.  Anyone look at the effects of increasing the diameter of the tube beyond the standard 2mm used on Knowles.  Seems like the larger the diameter, the high frequencies improve, but I haven't seen any measurements beyond 2mm.  
  
 Thanks


----------



## tomtomtom

Hi I`m new to this forum and thread. Great find!
 I've been working on IEMs for a little while now and I`m trying to acquire drivers which is difficult. So far the only easily accessible source I found is through digkey for Knowles drivers. Sonion is apparently only direct contact. 
 I made great progress of making good fitting acrylic shells, which is why I`m trying to move on with the project. I didn't have time to read through the whole thread, but I think I read that some people use epoxy as IEM housing material, which may not be biocompatible. You might get rashes or worse reactions. I will post some pics of my shells if there is any interest.
  
 I think I also saw someone mentioning Hackerspace. I`m in SF so maybe there can be some local collaboration!


----------



## Q Mass

tomtomtom said:


> Hi I`m new to this forum and thread. Great find!
> I've been working on IEMs for a little while now and I`m trying to acquire drivers which is difficult. So far the only easily accessible source I found is through digkey for Knowles drivers. Sonion is apparently only direct contact.
> I made great progress of making good fitting acrylic shells, which is why I`m trying to move on with the project. I didn't have time to read through the whole thread, but I think I read that some people use epoxy as IEM housing material, which may not be biocompatible. You might get rashes or worse reactions. *I will post some pics of my shells if there is any interest.*
> 
> I think I also saw someone mentioning Hackerspace. I`m in SF so maybe there can be some local collaboration!


 
  
 Of course there is !! MOAR DETAILS!
  
 And WELCOME... sorry for your wallet.


----------



## tomtomtom

Hi Dan,
  
 Interesting that the nail polish seems to work. Both material are probably not ideal though because they are formulated as adhesive. Based on my calculation the acrylic material will make up only a marginal cost of IEMs, the majority is the BAs and connectors. In my case the cost of the acrylic should not be more than $5 per set. 
 Do you have close up pictures? I'm interested in the surface morphology and transparency. Did you polish them? I will share some images of my first set that I just finished a few days ago.


----------



## tomtomtom

dan jarros said:


> OK. I've completed another set of CIEMs. Basically they are clear acrylic shells with Astrotec AX35 monitors in them. If you didn't know, the Astrotecs are affordable ($70) hybrid monitors with a dynamic speaker for the low spectrum and a balanced armature for the highs. Sound-wise, they are much better than my Sennheiser IE-4 and my Knowles dual driver designs. The Astrotecs are physically a bit large in the shell but I made it work. The dynamic speaker is much more suited for the lows and it really shines in the CIEM shells.
> So I did some experimenting with the different UV acrylics I've used and here's my verdict. The $5 nail salon stuff from Ebay looks, smells, flows, and cures just like the expensive Loctite stuff. That's what I'll use from now on. So total cost of the best CIEMs I have; less than $80.


 
 Sorry Dan,
  
 My previous post was supposed to be a quote!


----------



## tomtomtom

Quick follow up:
  
 Here's a pic of my first finished shell. No components inside, but will follow. I used a crude setup for polishing, but just today got a fixture for my dremel that should allow cleaner preparation of the samples. What I learned from preparing the shells is that it takes a good amount of practicing and experience to understand which impression material is needed and not needed.
  
 I don't have rights to upload images...see the link


----------



## Q Mass

That looks great!
Well done 
Do you feel they're comfy/seal well?


----------



## tomtomtom

q mass said:


> That looks great!
> Well done
> Do you feel they're comfy/seal well?


 
 Thanks!
  
 Coupling is great and the shell wall thickness turned out great too (not measured but ~1mm).
  
 Due to a recommendation I will start testing IEMs with dynamic drivers instead of BAs. Does anyone know which model/make of dynamic drivers is popular for IEMs and possibly where to buy them?


----------



## MuZo2

Shell canal looks too short, I am wondering if it gives seal and good fit.


----------



## MuZo2

What acrylic did you use? was it UV cured?


----------



## tomtomtom

muzo2 said:


> Shell canal looks too short, I am wondering if it gives seal and good fit.


 
 You're right the canal is a bit too short, that was a problem of the ear impression though. I ordered new dams since I hd issues with the old ones.
 Material is UV curing Dreve Fotoplast.


----------



## MuZo2

Where did you buy it?


----------



## tomtomtom

Not sure if I can post commercial links. Google for lightning enterprises.


----------



## CMOS1138

Hello all, It has taken me more than a month to read all the way through this thread, about half way though I decided I had to make my own pare. I am still experimenting with making the shells at this point and don't have pictures to post yet. 
  
 for drivers I decided to use the Knowles GK-31732-000. It is a 3 way driver combining TWFK and CI in one package pre-wired with a crossover. I have not tested my drivers out yet because I accidentally ordered to few connectors. I am eagerly awaiting delivery of all my remaining parts. 
  
 I have no soldering skills to speak of and am afraid of damaging the drivers since they are a little expensive so I decided to use a conductive adhesive covered with hot glue instead of solder. I will let you all know how that works out for me 
  
 For shell material I have been using 2 part dental acrylic so far but I am less than happy with the results and I plan to switch over to UV cured nail acrylic for the final shell. The problem with the dental acrylic is that it hardens almost immediately once you combine the acrylic powder with the monomer liquid and so it can not be easily poured into the mold, I have compensated for this by combining the the acrylic and monomer directly in the mold a little bit at a time.
  
 I plan to take pictures and post more once I have better results.
  
 Thank you everyone who has contributed so many great ideas to this thread so far


----------



## Dan Jarros

Good work on the shells. How did you polish them up? I've seen the videos of the companies using a buffing wheel at high speed. I had pretty unsatisfactory results with the high speed polishing wheel on the dremel. I'd like to get a more polished finish on my future models.
 DanJarros


----------



## Dan Jarros

You need to solder. Get a 20-25 watt iron with a very smooth tip and get a set of "helping hands" from EBay. Use a flux core electronics solder that melts fast and clean. I almost hate to say this but the electronics solder(specifically) from Radio Shack is really good.
 DJ


----------



## CMOS1138

dan jarros said:


> You need to solder. Get a 20-25 watt iron with a very smooth tip and get a set of "helping hands" from EBay. Use a flux core electronics solder that melts fast and clean. I almost hate to say this but the electronics solder(specifically) from Radio Shack is really good.
> DJ


 
 I Think you are correct, the conductive adhesive didn't work out well in my experiment today, the wire comes away from the contact at the slightest touch before I can even test the driver. If I use flux core solder, do I still need to use separate flux?


----------



## Dan Jarros

Don't need extra flux. Tin the tips of the wire first. That can be tricky with some headphone wire because there can be a layer of insulation that will burn off before the solder will sick to the copper. Use the helping hands to perfectly set up the connection and solder the wire to the tabs. If you're good you'll melt it together in less that 2 seconds. If you stay in contact much longer than that you will cook your driver.


----------



## CMOS1138

I had my first small success tonight. Following your advice about tinning the wire first and using a helping hands to hold everything in place while I worked, I managed to solder a set of connectors to a Knowles SR series driver (I didn't want to practice on the GK driver) . After I had the wires connected, I added some hot glue as strain relief and than I hot glued about an inch of acoustic tubing over the sound port and plugged that into a Shure olive tip.  I am quite impressed with the sound that $6 driver can produce. I got them just to practice on but now I think I will have to put those into a set of shells, perhaps something ultra low profile that fits entirely in the canal.
  
 One thing I learned, I am using far to much wire, I thought about 2 inches of wire would be a good amount but once I fit the driver into one of my prototype shells there is more wire than I know what to do with, I will have to either wind the extra wire up or cut it shorter before doing a final install.


----------



## Dan Jarros

If you're building them fixed cord you can tie one knot in the cable and let the UV gel lock the knot in place for your strain relief. On the first ones I had done the cable wound up slipping in and out threatening to pull on the drivers. This method fixed the problem.


----------



## wjp007

Does anyone have a good source for UV LEDs? I'm want to try making shells with the UV Nail gel. Looks like the wavelength needs to be around 365nm, but I'm not exactly sure.
Thanks


----------



## tomtomtom

wjp007 said:


> Does anyone have a good source for UV LEDs? I'm want to try making shells with the UV Nail gel. Looks like the wavelength needs to be around 365nm, but I'm not exactly sure.
> Thanks


 
 Don't try to find LEDs, just buy cheap CFLs. These will work perfectly:
  
 http://www.amazon.com/TOOGOO-Lamp-Light-Bulb-Dryer/dp/B00CAMCOT6/ref=pd_sbs_bt_5?ie=UTF8&refRID=0RH01FBHR3GTZPSV8BQX


----------



## Dan Jarros

He's right. but buy one of the UV nail dryer boxes on ebay with bulbs included. It's perfect. Do your back plates on a mirror. Go back and look at my earlier posts.


----------



## wjp007

Thanks, I saw that, was hoping to save some money.

For those that are having trouble soldering enamel coated headphone wires, I find dipping the tips in solder flux and then tinning with a solder ball on the tip of the iron works great. The flux helps burn off the enamel without leaving a burnt enamel residue.


----------



## Dan Jarros

Nice.


----------



## wjp007

I've made my resin copy of my impression.   I did dip my original impression in a thin coat of wax so it's slightly larger than my original.  They do fit snugly right now, but a bit hard to get in and out of my ear.  I highlighted in red what changes I looking to make.  Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks


----------



## MuZo2

I think making canal length shorter and adding a bit taper should help.


----------



## wjp007

Thanks will give it a shot.


----------



## CMOS1138

I am having difficulty fitting 2 sound tubes through the ear canal section of my prototype shells, If I bore out a large enough hole for 2 tubes, the walls are so thin that they are flexible. I am using the standard size acoustic tubing from microsonic as this is the smallest flexible tubing I can find but the diameter is quite a bit larger than the sound ports on my drivers. What kind of tubing are others using to fit 2 sound ports in the ear canal?


----------



## MuZo2

If canal are small you can use big bore tube to certain length and then 2 tubes for drivers.


----------



## CMOS1138

my acrylic is turning out with a yellow cast. anyone know how to avoid this?


----------



## vector1

Hi
  
 I'm planning on making my first set of DIY IEMs to replace my lost set of westone 4.
  
 After trolling through this huge thread I decided on using the easily available Knowles BA drivers, CI, DTEC and WBFK. I have seen people using the combination of TWFK and CI, but since I like rich mids, I rather go the extra mile for the DTECs, plus the westone 4s use the DTEC and TWFK so I figure this will be close enough with the sub-bass boost from the CIs.
  
 One thing to note about this combination which I have seen, is that some people comment that the WBFKs are less sensitive than the CI and DTECs, hence the highs sounds recessed or the bass and mids need a resistor in series to tame the response. Could anyone advise me on a suitable crossover network for these 3 drivers (resistor values and cap values would be appreciated, or suitable frequencies as I know how to calculate that myself). Alternatively, should I go for dual WBFKs since they’re really small and easy to fit into the shell?
  
 Also, do I need to cascade multiple components to create a bandpass network for the mids? I think I need a minimum of 2 high and 2 low pass to create a suitable network (low pass for subwoofer, bandpass for woofer, high pass for tweeter), but I’ve seen examples with less. Would it be bad to pass the high frequencies to the CI or  low frequencies to the DTEC as that might cause problems with interference?
  
 I also considered making an active network in a separate box and hacking a player into it, but that seemed too complicated especially considering the size, but I’ve seen one example in this thread so I might consider modifying it one day to include a suitable network.
  
 I also would like to eventually customise this IEM, but for now I’m going to rapid prototype a universal shell since I have access to a really good machine from stratsys with a lovely clear material. Does anyone have any idea where I can find a online model to base my shell on? I’ve done a simple rounded shell in solidworks to see if it fits in my ear, but doing a more complex model without exact measurements of an existing IEM is too hit and miss for me.
  
 Thanks for helping!


----------



## CMOS1138

why not use twfk instead of wbfk? that gives you a nice 5 way and it will only cost about $20 more total.


----------



## vector1

cmos1138 said:


> why not use twfk instead of wbfk? that gives you a nice 5 way and it will only cost about $20 more total.


 
 Considering the local cost of the WBFK being $30, and TWFK being $65, I'd prefer to buy 2x WBFK just for the highs if I went down that road.

 The way I thought the crossovers would work would be to cut off tweeters from producing the mid range frequencies, hence there would be no point in paying for the FK mid woofer that we don’t use?


----------



## tomtomtom

vector1 said:


> Hi
> 
> I'm planning on making my first set of DIY IEMs to replace my lost set of westone 4.
> 
> ...


 
 Hey there! Do you plan on measuring the frequency response? What is the material you are printing?


----------



## vector1

tomtomtom said:


> Hey there! Do you plan on measuring the frequency response? What is the material you are printing?


 
 I would like to, and my friends have plans to measure, but personally I think it's not worth the time as I can't control the variables well enough to actually tune the response. I’ll use a heavy dose of EQ after the fact to smooth out anything the crossover doesn’t do well enough. I think the problems will be heavy spikes at certain frequencies thanks to resonance and the drivers themselves, which a crossover can’t handle unless I squeeze in a notch filter.
  
 Like I said, I might choose to remove everything redesign around a active filter circuit which I know how to design. I just want to get suggestions on a passive crossover that I can actually squeeze into the earphone. 

 I will likely will print in Veroclear. http://www.stratasys.com/materials/polyjet/transparent . It’s not the most strong, but the tranparency will be nice if I can arrange everything inside presentably


----------



## tomtomtom

vector1 said:


> I would like to, and my friends have plans to measure, but personally I think it's not worth the time as I can't control the variables well enough to actually tune the response. I’ll use a heavy dose of EQ after the fact to smooth out anything the crossover doesn’t do well enough. I think the problems will be heavy spikes at certain frequencies thanks to resonance and the drivers themselves, which a crossover can’t handle unless I squeeze in a notch filter.
> 
> Like I said, I might choose to remove everything redesign around a active filter circuit which I know how to design. I just want to get suggestions on a passive crossover that I can actually squeeze into the earphone.
> 
> I will likely will print in Veroclear. http://www.stratasys.com/materials/polyjet/transparent . It’s not the most strong, but the tranparency will be nice if I can arrange everything inside presentably


 
 I think it'll be hard to design a three let alone a fourway driver system without being able to measure the frequency response, but it'll be interesting to see how they turn out. I`m currently having a similar issue, but I think I'll start of with dynamic drivers and then build up a measuring system for BA drivers.


----------



## vector1

tomtomtom said:


> I think it'll be hard to design a three let alone a fourway driver system without being able to measure the frequency response, but it'll be interesting to see how they turn out. I`m currently having a similar issue, but I think I'll start of with dynamic drivers and then build up a measuring system for BA drivers.


 
 I understand that, that's why I would like to a) work with known drivers b) get suggestions regarding crossover frequencies. I don't need it to be perfect first time round as eventually I'll remove them from the universal housing and put them into a custom IEM. Hence this crossover is just the beginning


----------



## MuZo2

vector1 said:


> b) get suggestions regarding crossover frequencies.


 

 Thats most difficult one. You will have to measure it and design your crossover. Crossover components are RC filter. You will need smd caps and resistors. Start with simple 2way design and then  if thats a success you can do more complex designs.


----------



## MuZo2

Some one has uploaded Knowles design guide in other thread. Did you read those docs ?


----------



## vector1

So I can't just ballpark a figure for a crossover at 150Hz and 2kHz?
  
 From what I understand is that the complex (changing) inductance means that the spikes will not be at the expected locations from measurements.
  
 However, will this lead to excessive non-linear responses? I would expect a shift in the cut-off point, but not necessarily lead to non-linearity in the frequency response? Furthermore, with passive circuits I don't see a way to actually equalize the response since RC filters will have unity response when not close to the cut-off, and that won't help in smoothing the spikes in the actual response unless notch filters are used.
  
 I am thinking that as long the crossover prevents interference of each band from passing to the next, I'll use acoustic filters and EQ to tame the rest of the peaks.
  
 Also, I will try to make this modular so I can actually revise the interior circuit design. I would print a special holder for the circuit components that should be serviceable easily, plus help in soldering the SMD components.
  
 Regarding the Knowles design guide, if it's the one that has the frequency response of each of the drivers then yes, I have read and extracted that data. I haven't seen any driver specific guide, but I have seen previous examples in this very thread, but mostly using a more simple crossover.


----------



## Mython

muzo2 said:


> Some one has uploaded Knowles design guide in other thread. Did you read those docs ?


 
  
 Would you kindly post a link?
  
 Thanks!


----------



## MuZo2

http://www.head-fi.org/t/709859/multiple-balanced-armature-speaker-systems-with-crossover-networks


----------



## vector1

Thank you for that thread!


----------



## CMOS1138

Sound quality problems.
  
 I attempted to finish assembly on my first set of home made IEMs and right away I ran into trouble. 
  
 First problem, I can see that the drivers for the left ear have become detached from the acoustic tubing so I did not bother to work any more on that shell. 
  
 The right ear looks like everything is hooked up OK but it sounds awful. It is much quieter than I expected it to be and I thought perhaps it just needed to be amped but when I hook it up to my headphone amp it still sounds bad, just louder. I am hoping that the cause of the poor sound quality is that this driver has also pulled away from its acoustic tubing.
  
 I plan to start over tomorrow with a new shell (I want to improve the finish anyway) and this time I am going to try attaching the tubing with superglue instead of hot glue. I only worry that I will damage the driver with the superglue. 
  
  
 Edit:  looking closer at my right side driver I can see that I was correct and the sound port has become detached from my tubing on that side also.


----------



## piotrus-g

vector1 said:


> So I can't just ballpark a figure for a crossover at 150Hz and 2kHz?


 
 Yes you can, but have to have resources to make it work correctly.


----------



## vector1

piotrus-g said:


> Yes you can, but have to have resources to make it work correctly.


 
 What kind of resources do you mean? I have prototyped active filters with opamps before, and I understand the theory behind the passive filters. Equipment wise I can etch circuit boards and solder on the SMD resistors/caps so I can fit in a more complex crossover.
  
 I'm still considering MuZo's words of wisdom, and perhaps go back to a TWFK/DTEC combo like what's in my old W4. It's just so tempting to experiment with the CI for the low end.
  
 The main thing is that CI+WBFK = TWFK in terms of cost, and the downside is added complexity in crossover design.
  
 I've already read all the documents from the other thread, and come to the conclusion the crossovers are really just for cutting the response very roughly, and not for tuning. The acoustic properties of the material I use, sound tube length, and tube diameter seem to impact the response even more than what I can implement with passives. I'll finalize a design and post it up here for comments, then see about ordering everything next week.
  
 I'll attempt something I saw a few pages back with a separate active filter/amp in the future.
  
 *One thing though, where can I find this acoustic tubing for the drivers from Asia?*


----------



## piotrus-g

vector1 said:


> What kind of resources do you mean?


 
 You need measuring equipment. Working with TWFK especially with DTEC+TWFK is really tricky if you use regular DTEC-30088 with 3300 Ohm damper and slap 1-2uF on TWFK-30017 it will create gap in frequencies due to phase canceling. It's not really easy to work with those drivers, Especially TWFK is really hard to get right - to avoid harshness and sibilance but still get decent highs.
  
 BAs don't have flat phase or impedance and they will change dramatically depending on tubing, damping etc.
  


> The main thing is that CI+WBFK = TWFK


 
 Buy GK unit and you'll be set, there's on board crossover and all you have to do it do some acoustic tuning and you'll get good sound for $100/pair.


----------



## vector1

piotrus-g said:


> You need measuring equipment. Working with TWFK especially with DTEC+TWFK is really tricky if you use regular DTEC-30088 with 3300 Ohm damper and slap 1-2uF on TWFK-30017 it will create gap in frequencies due to phase canceling. It's not really easy to work with those drivers, Especially TWFK is really hard to get right - to avoid harshness and sibilance but still get decent highs.
> 
> BAs don't have flat phase or impedance and they will change dramatically depending on tubing, damping etc.
> 
> Buy GK unit and you'll be set, there's on board crossover and all you have to do it do some acoustic tuning and you'll get good sound for $100/pair.


 
 Regarding phase canceling, what I understand is that a 180deg shift is needed, but if I'm only implementing a 1st order, maximum phase change I'll see per filter is 90deg past the cut off frequency. Will the output be so significant that with a 6db/decade rolloff it'll still cause issues?
  
 I could shift the cutoff frequencies away from the regions of issues, especially near the measured peaks from the literature.
  
 I won't only use acoustic filters, rather a network of first order filters.
  
 I am guessing that I should be able to exploit the voltage divider in the filters to help attenuate each driver relative to each other, but I'd have to buy quite a few values of capacitors if I want to maintain the same cut-off frequencies when I'm testing.
  
 It's not that I want a simple earphone, as I could just go buy a set of $200+ earphones. It's more on the lines of a side project for me so I want to go the distance


----------



## piotrus-g

vector1 said:


> Regarding phase canceling, what I understand is that a 180deg shift is needed, but if I'm only implementing a 1st order, maximum phase change I'll see per filter is 90deg past the cut off frequency. Will the output be so significant that with a 6db/decade rolloff it'll still cause issues?


 
 It's the 1st order filters that will create those canceling. As I'm MOT I cannot talk about other manufacturers but check out Rin Choi's blog to see what I'm talking about here
  


> I won't only use acoustic filters, rather a network of first order filters.


 
 Then it's going to be a real tough-y
  


> It's more on the lines of a side project for me so I want to go the distance


 
 I totally understand just know the distance it ten times longer than you expect. Trust me on this. Working w/o measuring equipment vs. working with measuring equipment is like night and day difference. Without measuring rig you simply don't know what you are doing because you are unable to verify your work, and hearing can be VERY deceiving.


----------



## CMOS1138

I am using the GK driver in my build, I can tell you one of the main frustrations with this driver is the distance between the 2 sound ports is about the same as the thickness of the wall of standard acoustic tubing making it hard to fit 2 tubes over the sound ports but they are far enough apart that I can't fit them both into a single tube.
  
 I have resorted to sanding down the tubing walls in order to make them thin enough that I can fit both tubes over the driver ports but it is a tight squeeze and difficult to get the tubing fully flush with the drivers.
  
 If anyone knows a source for smaller tubing I would be grateful.


----------



## tranhieu

vector1 said:


> Regarding phase canceling, what I understand is that a 180deg shift is needed, but if I'm only implementing a 1st order, maximum phase change I'll see per filter is 90deg past the cut off frequency. Will the output be so significant that with a 6db/decade rolloff it'll still cause issues?
> 
> I could shift the cutoff frequencies away from the regions of issues, especially near the measured peaks from the literature.
> 
> ...


 
 - BA's phase response in general is very unpredictable, unlike dynamic drivers. A 45 deg shift is more than enough to create a trough in your frequency response. In all honesty you should get yourself a measuring rig to fine tune the BAs.
  
 - Avoid using acoustics dampers as much as possible when it comes to tuning the tweeter. Try to move your cutoff frequency further upward instead.
  
 - Also avoid using resistors to dampen your woofer as they also cut down your low bass decay considerably. Unless you're into PFE 112 kind of sound signature.


----------



## piotrus-g

cmos1138 said:


> I am using the GK driver in my build, I can tell you one of the main frustrations with this driver is the distance between the 2 sound ports is about the same as the thickness of the wall of standard acoustic tubing making it hard to fit 2 tubes over the sound ports but they are far enough apart that I can't fit them both into a single tube.
> 
> I have resorted to sanding down the tubing walls in order to make them thin enough that I can fit both tubes over the driver ports but it is a tight squeeze and difficult to get the tubing fully flush with the drivers.
> 
> If anyone knows a source for smaller tubing I would be grateful.


 

 There's something like tubing expander I'm pretty sure it's quite common tool though.
 http://www.westone.com/store/index.php/professional-supplies/tubing-cements-supplies-accessories/tubing-expander-pliers-curved-2442.html
  
 using this tool you'll be able to put one 2mmID tubing on two drivers' spouts.
  
 I'm pretty sure GK is designed to be used with single tubing or in universal IEMs where they are firing into designed silicone sleeve (like UE uses) or in plastic body (like Westone/Shure).


----------



## vector1

piotrus-g said:


> It's the 1st order filters that will create those canceling. As I'm MOT I cannot talk about other manufacturers but check out Rin Choi's blog to see what I'm talking about here
> 
> Then it's going to be a real tough-y
> 
> I totally understand just know the distance it ten times longer than you expect. Trust me on this. Working w/o measuring equipment vs. working with measuring equipment is like night and day difference. Without measuring rig you simply don't know what you are doing because you are unable to verify your work, and hearing can be VERY deceiving.


 
  
 That was interesting, since it uses TWFK and DTEC per W4 I had.
  
 I think it's something that I have to feel the pain of working without measurements before I'll understand the need ^^
  
 But the thing is, I thought the calibration of the IEM ultimately comes down to the individual, so as long it's not too harsh/bloated for me, I hope it'll turn out fine anyway.
  
 Even so, could I trouble you to direct me to any resources/shops that I can possibly get these measuring equipment from? And is the cost going to be more than the headphone drivers it self?


tranhieu said:


> - BA's phase response in general is very unpredictable, unlike dynamic drivers. A 45 deg shift is more than enough to create a trough in your frequency response. In all honesty you should get yourself a measuring rig to fine tune the BAs.
> 
> - Avoid using acoustics dampers as much as possible when it comes to tuning the tweeter. Try to move your cutoff frequency further upward instead.
> 
> - Also avoid using resistors to dampen your woofer as they also cut down your low bass decay considerably. Unless you're into PFE 112 kind of sound signature.


 
 1) I can see why my friend was talking about getting a measuring rig first. It seems to be the first thing everyone says when doing DIY.
  
 2) I understand that, but I might still get a selection of filters to test if they're not too expensive.
  
 3) I'm not sure how do I simulate that in pSpice . Do you mean resistors in series? Because I was referring to the impedance mismatch between input, filter and woofer that can be used as a voltage divider if the response is known for that frequency range. I know that it ought to be a very low ratio in order to 1) reduce attenuation 2) improve response.


----------



## CMOS1138

piotrus-g said:


> There's something like tubing expander I'm pretty sure it's quite common tool though.
> http://www.westone.com/store/index.php/professional-supplies/tubing-cements-supplies-accessories/tubing-expander-pliers-curved-2442.html
> 
> using this tool you'll be able to put one 2mmID tubing on two drivers' spouts.
> ...


 
 that is a great idea. I will experiment and see if I can expand the tubing a bit with the tools I have on hand before ordering a specialty tool though. I have already spent far more than I intended on this project.
  
 I think you are correct about GK being designed to work with a single tubing because (at least to my ears) I have not been able to significantly change the sound signature by using dampers (white on the TWFK and red on the CI,) I only succeeded in making it quieter.


----------



## tomtomtom

piotrus-g said:


> It's the 1st order filters that will create those canceling. As I'm MOT I cannot talk about other manufacturers but check out Rin Choi's blog to see what I'm talking about here
> 
> Then it's going to be a real tough-y
> 
> I totally understand just know the distance it ten times longer than you expect. Trust me on this. Working w/o measuring equipment vs. working with measuring equipment is like night and day difference. Without measuring rig you simply don't know what you are doing because you are unable to verify your work, and hearing can be VERY deceiving.


 
 Hi Piotrius,
  
 Great advice. I`m currently working with dynamic drivers and then move on to BAs. My plan is to start with oneway drivers and then build on that experience (2-way, 3-way etc.). Do you have any recommendations (maybe there is a thread already?) for a simple and cheap measurement system to start working on BAs? All these ear simulators are very expensive.


----------



## piotrus-g

tomtomtom said:


> Hi Piotrius,
> 
> Great advice. I`m currently working with dynamic drivers and then move on to BAs. My plan is to start with oneway drivers and then build on that experience (2-way, 3-way etc.). Do you have any recommendations (maybe there is a thread already?) for a simple and cheap measurement system to start working on BAs? All these ear simulators are very expensive.


 
 That's good to start off with 1way IEMs, it lets you understand basics of how BA changes on acoustic terminations.
  
 As for measurement - you can buy some some condenser microphone, use cut syringe (to 2cc) as coupler. However I've never done it so you should do some research on it. ARTA software is free (in free version you cannot save your measurements).


----------



## MuZo2

For measurement rig you can use
 http://www.johncon.com/john/wm61a/


----------



## ThatOneGuy37

DO NOT USE SUPERGLUE! I've found it nearly impossible to use it without clogging up something on the driver, be it the nozzle or the side opening, plus it leaves a white film over everything. If the sound is bad even when amped, you may have a cold joint , loose tubing, or the solder pad heated up too much and burned off a little, but not all the way. i tried making my own first pair and completely destroyed them and wasted $300 due to soldering issues and the use o superglue.


----------



## CMOS1138

thatoneguy37 said:


> DO NOT USE SUPERGLUE! I've found it nearly impossible to use it without clogging up something on the driver, be it the nozzle or the side opening, plus it leaves a white film over everything. If the sound is bad even when amped, you may have a cold joint , loose tubing, or the solder pad heated up too much and burned off a little, but not all the way. i tried making my own first pair and completely destroyed them and wasted $300 due to soldering issues and the use o superglue.


 
 that is probably good advice but I have already completed my first assembly using superglue and for me, it solved the problem I was having with the tube detaching from the driver. 
  
 My intentional mistake with this build was using 2 tubes one one side and only 1 tube on the other. I wanted to see how much (if any) of a difference it would make to the sound. initial impressions, 2 tubes has a much stronger base response and SPL is higher overall. 1 tube seems to have a more flat response. I need to listen to them for a while longer before I decide which one I prefer.
  
 You can see my finished CIEM in my avatar picture.


----------



## MuZo2

Be careful with superglue. I think it leave some fumes so superglue for attaching tubes to shell or something like it might not be safe.


----------



## vector1

Perhaps you need to ensure that you’re using the right type of glue, cyanoacrylate glue (loctite) is generally safe after application, but do it in a well ventilated area


----------



## tranhieu

Actually, UM also use superglue to attach sound tubes. It can be done but you gotta be super careful at the same time.
  
 Another solution is to use a thin layer of UV glue, or even clear nail polish could do. They provide strong enough bonding while easy to be broken apart at low cost.


----------



## aarontww

Anyone here tried a ci(low) dtec (mid) twfk (high) configurations? What were your learnings? What is the sound signature like?


----------



## CMOS1138

tranhieu said:


> Actually, UM also use superglue to attach sound tubes. It can be done but you gotta be super careful at the same time.
> 
> Another solution is to use a thin layer of UV glue, or even clear nail polish could do. They provide strong enough bonding while easy to be broken apart at low cost


 
  
 I did think about using UV acrylic, the problem I was having is that I had to hold the tubes very tightly against the sound ports in order to get a proper seal and that is difficult to do while also ensuring that it gets sufficient UV light to cure.


----------



## vector1

Quote: 





aarontww said:


> Anyone here tried a ci(low) dtec (mid) twfk (high) configurations? What were your learnings? What is the sound signature like?


 
 I'm going to try a CI/DTEC/WBFK combination soon, as I think it's more interesting to try out crossovers.
  
 I'm testing out suitable shapes for the universal shell I'll print, but I'm pretty sure it'll be something close to this in size, since it can fit all the drivers into the body. I'll be using a boot printed with some elastic material to hookup the drivers to the ear canal.
  
 CI on top, WBFK to the left, DTEC at the bottom. I might still shift WBFK to face downwards directly into the canal since there's space.
  
 Ignore the random mmcx connector, it's trivial to add supporting structures on the outside and I just wanted to test the size first.


----------



## wjp007

Got my first shells completed today.  Thanks Dan Jarros, the UV Nail stuff from ebay works great.  Cures clear, has no sticky residue when completely cured and super cheap.  I found that the top coat material worked better than the base coat.  
  
 Went to do a dry fit to make sure everything works.  
  
 Right ear, check, sounds great.  
  
 Left ear, very quiet and no highs.  
  
 I think I killed the tweeter with too much heat when soldering the terminals.   
  
 What a let down.  
  
 Now I need to wait to get a new driver in.  I think I'm going to try to use the shells for one of my dynamic earphones (Sony MH1c).  Fortunately for me, I have big canals and I can get the MH1cs almost to the very edge of the tip.


----------



## tomtomtom

piotrus-g said:


> That's good to start off with 1way IEMs, it lets you understand basics of how BA changes on acoustic terminations.
> 
> As for measurement - you can buy some some condenser microphone, use cut syringe (to 2cc) as coupler. However I've never done it so you should do some research on it. ARTA software is free (in free version you cannot save your measurements).


 
 Hi!
  
 I`m planning on building a jig using a Behringer ECM8000 condenser microphone and either a audio analyzer or a tool such as the M-Audio MobilePre. I'll also build a small anechoic chamber.
  
 Do you have any hardware recommendations in particular? I'm mainly concerned about the accuracy of the M-audio MobilePre.
  
 Thanks!


----------



## vector1

Does anyone know what happens in group delay? The time constant is directly linked to cutoff-frequency, hence it's something that passives can't really control well.
  
 Also, is it reasonable to use 100uF caps in my filter design? The concept is to reduce the resistance needed to give a better impedance ratio.


----------



## tranhieu

vector1 said:


> The concept is to reduce the resistance needed to give a better impedance ratio.


 
 That's a long shot imo. Dampening ratio isn't that important compared to other factors.


----------



## vector1

tranhieu said:


> That's a long shot imo. Dampening ratio isn't that important compared to other factors.


 
  What other factors am I missing? I have modeled the crossovers using large caps to reduce the impedance presented by the resistors especially for the low pass filters, which has the resistor in series.
  
 I'm now preparing the list of caps/resistors that I need for the crossover. I think I'll start with a simple high pass for WBFK and low pass for CI then leave DTEC directly driven. If that sounds bad, then I'll move on to use a bandpass for DTEC, but overall I think it's a bad idea since the peak introduced would most likely screw up the frequency response.


----------



## MuZo2

vector1 said:


> Also, is it reasonable to use 100uF caps in my filter design? The concept is to reduce the resistance needed to give a better impedance ratio.


 
 I have read in sonion doc that larger capacitance values should not be used. Not sure why?
 I have seen 0.1 to 10uF values in designs.


----------



## vector1

muzo2 said:


> I have read in sonion doc that larger capacitance values should not be used. Not sure why?
> I have seen 0.1 to 10uF values in designs.


 
  Is there a reference I can read? I have not seen that in their application notes, or I must have missed it.


----------



## tsn141

Hi;


Capacitor values affected from your cut-off points. too much capacitor values means more homogeneous distrubution of energy at freuency spectrum. Lesser caps values means lesser homogeneous distributionf energy that means more energy goes to higher freuency.





For damping; It is a good point but you need what happens inside driver and acoustic structure. Mass-Spring -Damper phenomena can help you.


----------



## vector1

tsn141 said:


> Hi;
> 
> 
> Capacitor values affected from your cut-off points. too much capacitor values means more homogeneous distrubution of energy at freuency spectrum. Lesser caps values means lesser homogeneous distributionf energy that means more energy goes to higher freuency.
> ...


 
  
 I don't actually understand what you mean. In a RC circuit, the capacitor is in line with the receiver and the source, while the resistor connects to ground. The cut off frequency is dependent on both R &C by 1/(2(pi)RC) but capacitance changes which energy distribution? I had the impression under bandpass the response should be close to unity.


----------



## vector1

Once I confirm that my desired case is strong enough to work without breaking, I’m going to order my components.
  
 I have scaled back my plans, so I’m only implementing a low pass for CI @ 100Hz, high pass for WBFK@1kHz, and nothing on DTEC. One red filter in the CI tube to reduce it’s presence at 1k/2k.
  
 Lowpass = 16ohm resistor, 100uF cap
 Highpass = 16ohm resistor, 10uF cap (reduced to match the previous suggestion, or I'd leave it at 100uF)

 The main reason is that I’m afraid of phase differences from any lowpass/bandpass for the DTEC affecting the output around 4-10kHz since it still has quite a significant output at higher frequencies.


----------



## tsn141

vector1 said:


> I don't actually understand what you mean. In a RC circuit, the capacitor is in line with the receiver and the source, while the resistor connects to ground. The cut off frequency is dependent on both R &C by 1/(2(pi)RC) but capacitance changes which energy distribution? I had the impression under bandpass the response should be close to unity.


 
 The system of driver is behaves like combination of resistors, capacitors and inductors.
  
 Energy distribution is an analogy for my approach.


----------



## piotrus-g

vector1 said:


> I have scaled back my plans, so I’m only implementing a low pass for CI @ 100Hz,
> Lowpass = 16ohm resistor, 100uF cap


 
 Ain't gonna work. You'll get too big delay on such crossover - 0.01s - this will be noticeable
  
 As for tweeter - you don't have to use 16 Ohm resistor. WBFK has 13,5 Ohm at 1kHz so you may loose resistor and still got cut-off at around 1,1kHz with only 10uF. It's space-efficient and you won't here any difference.


----------



## tsn141

vector1 said:


> Once I confirm that my desired case is strong enough to work without breaking, I’m going to order my components.
> 
> I have scaled back my plans, so I’m only implementing a low pass for CI @ 100Hz, high pass for WBFK@1kHz, and nothing on DTEC. One red filter in the CI tube to reduce it’s presence at 1k/2k.
> 
> ...


 
 If you use it that type :
 It will work there is no phase delays on my calculations. 
  I can not guarantee for feedin of DAP. Lots of power will go to junkie. (Driver mounted Vout)


----------



## vector1

piotrus-g said:


> Ain't gonna work. You'll get too big delay on such crossover - 0.01s - this will be noticeable
> 
> As for tweeter - you don't have to use 16 Ohm resistor. WBFK has 13,5 Ohm at 1kHz so you may loose resistor and still got cut-off at around 1,1kHz with only 10uF. It's space-efficient and you won't here any difference.


 
  
 I have read that that group delay only becomes audible with 10+ms of delay, but is it so significant that I should increase the crossover frequency and maybe cause the mids to be bloated with the high response from the CI? DTEC itself has pretty good bass response and the CI is really just for that extra "kick" at 20-100Hz. I will buy a couple of resistor values to test for this range then, and see what happens as I up the cutoff.
  
 The tweeter is not in series with the resistor. The resistor is part of a RC high pass 1st order network, with the cap in series and the resistor going to ground in parallel to the tweeter. I'm also going to use 1206 sized SMD components hence I'm not that concerned about space.


----------



## wjp007

Here is my first completed shell.  I had used the MH1c Sony since my BA driver get burned out after soldering.  Can't wait until I get my new BA driver.


----------



## piotrus-g

vector1 said:


> I have read that that group delay only becomes audible with 10+ms of delay, but is it so significant that I should increase the crossover frequency and maybe cause the mids to be bloated with the high response from the CI? DTEC itself has pretty good bass response and the CI is really just for that extra "kick" at 20-100Hz. I will buy a couple of resistor values to test for this range then, and see what happens as I up the cutoff.
> 
> The tweeter is not in series with the resistor. The resistor is part of a RC high pass 1st order network, with the cap in series and the resistor going to ground in parallel to the tweeter. I'm also going to use 1206 sized SMD components hence I'm not that concerned about space.


 
 But you won't hear the kick drum with such delay it will be lagging behind the rest
  
 I understand, but there's no point in doing such thing - use cap in series with driver only - you'll get the same result.


----------



## vector1

piotrus-g said:


> But you won't hear the kick drum with such delay it will be lagging behind the rest
> 
> I understand, but there's no point in doing such thing - use cap in series with driver only - you'll get the same result.


 
 What would you suggest for the CI then?
  
 Also, should I then just use the 0.82 cap recommended in the TWFK?


----------



## piotrus-g

vector1 said:


> What would you suggest for the CI then?
> 
> Also, should I then just use the 0.82 cap recommended in the TWFK?


 
 Using it with acoustic low pass - dampers f.e.
 it has natural slope starting around 5kHz.
  
 You mean for WBFK-30095 0.82uF? or for TWFK-30017 wired in parallel to 0.82uF cap? 
 The first will get you cut-off at around 7kHz while in TWFK around 4,5kHz.


----------



## vector1

piotrus-g said:


> Using it with acoustic low pass - dampers f.e.
> it has natural slope starting around 5kHz.
> 
> You mean for WBFK-30095 0.82uF? or for TWFK-30017 wired in parallel to 0.82uF cap?
> The first will get you cut-off at around 7kHz while in TWFK around 4,5kHz.


 
 I have read the acoustic damper technical note from knowles and apparently having 2 red filters will help damp out the high frequency response quite a bit. 
  
 Since I only want the DTEC handling the mids, perhaps I could just use one/dual red filters on the CI + crossover at 500Hz? That ought to help roll off the high frequency response while not introducing too much group delay (0.31ms by my calculations)
  
 Regarding the high pass, am I right to introduce the cut off for WBFK at 1kHz? I thought I'd like to take advantage of the 2kHz and above response of the WBFK, but I'm not sure how it will interact with the DTEC if there's no cutoff on it.


----------



## piotrus-g

> am I right to introduce the cut off for WBFK at 1kHz?


 
 There's really no right and wrong here.
 I'd personally cut it at around 5-8kHz - so it will start working when CI and DTEC start rolling off - but it's me. you may want it to influence midrange more.


----------



## CMOS1138

I remade my right shell today so that I am using 2 sound ports on both sides now. It is nice to have a balanced sound finally after a week of listening to one port on the right and 2 ports on the left but it took me that long to decide which way I liked better. Cutting into something that I spent so much time creating was very scary, I was hoping to be able to salvage the shell and simply refit it with 2 sound ports but I could not figure out a way to take it apart without destroying it.
  
 one thing I found out, painting the inside of the shell with nail polish is not a good idea, apparently it didn't fully dry before I closed it up and that moisture inside was not good for my driver, one of the wires connecting CI to the crossover circuit got disconnected and I had to solder it back on.
  
  
 Next project - make stealth shells using the SR driver. I should be able to fit it inside the canal section and have nothing obviously viable from the outside other than the cable. I will probably use green dampers to tone down the high side spikes of the driver.


----------



## CMOS1138

The Fixed cable stealth shells with SR drivers are now complete. 
  
 I highly recommend the SR driver to anyone who is wanting to try things out without spending much money before going for a more complex build. They have a nice flat response that is great for acoustic type music such as classical or jazz and for only $6 each, you can experiment without fear. 
  
 I used an old headphone cable I had laying around that was broken at the connection point, striped off the connectors and soldered it directly to the SR drivers. Then I put green filters into some short sections of acoustic tubing and attached them to the drivers with superglue. 
  
 For the shells, I didn't have enough UV acrylic so I used dental acrylic that I have on hand (started the project with this, it is hard to make hollow shells with but works fine for this set) and than drilled it out with a dermal. I sealed up the back with some of my remaining UV acrylic.


----------



## tomtomtom

cmos1138 said:


> The Fixed cable stealth shells with SR drivers are now complete.
> 
> I highly recommend the SR driver to anyone who is wanting to try things out without spending much money before going for a more complex build. They have a nice flat response that is great for acoustic type music such as classical or jazz and for only $6 each, you can experiment without fear.
> 
> ...


 
 Which SR driver do you mean, can you provide a link? Thanks!


----------



## CMOS1138

tomtomtom said:


> Which SR driver do you mean, can you provide a link? Thanks!


 
 I am using Knowles  SR6438NWS-000
  
 I purchased it from mouser  http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=SR6438NWS-000virtualkey66550000virtualkey721-SR6438NWS-000


----------



## koshernyituzz

Hello guys! I want building single armature iem. I want to but knowles ED 29689 this driver situated in etymotic er4​ and build my own armature iem. But i find DIY kit on taobao: http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=2013.1.w4018-3239370657.11.6F601Y&scm=1007.170.0.0&id=25961180889&pvid=db62871f-c29c-4d49-8022-d4475f6636bc&jlogid=p16005659f14d1
 what do you think is it good idea or not? Recently I listened Grado GR08 and I lovely this sound. But he's used moving armature driver it's new type of armature driver and he never sold. Perhaps you know other more better single armature then knowles ED 29689, help me please.


----------



## koshernyituzz

Hello guys! I want building single armature iem. I want to but knowles ED 29689 this driver situated in etymotic er4 and build my own armature iem. But i find DIY kit on taobao.
 what do you think is it good idea or not? Recently I listened Grado GR08 and I lovely this sound. But he's used moving armature driver it's new type of armature driver and he never sold. Perhaps you know other more better single armature then knowles ED 29689, help me please.


----------



## CMOS1138

koshernyituzz said:


> Hello guys! I want building single armature iem. I want to but knowles ED 29689 this driver situated in etymotic er4 and build my own armature iem. But i find DIY kit on taobao.
> what do you think is it good idea or not? Recently I listened Grado GR08 and I lovely this sound. But he's used moving armature driver it's new type of armature driver and he never sold. Perhaps you know other more better single armature then knowles ED 29689, help me please.


 
 The frequency response for that driver isn't all that appealing. 
 http://www.knowles.com/eng/content/download/4346/59501/version/2/file/ED-29689-000.pdf


----------



## koshernyituzz

What you recommended for building single driver armature, which driver is best to use. thank you.


----------



## MuZo2

Knowles ED29689
 TWFK
 Sonion 1700 But would be hard to get.


----------



## piotrus-g

cmos1138 said:


> The frequency response for that driver isn't all that appealing.
> http://www.knowles.com/eng/content/download/4346/59501/version/2/file/ED-29689-000.pdf


 

 because this measurement is made with IEC126.


----------



## tomscy2000

ED-29689-000, measured with IEC-60318-4 (IEC-60711):
  

 Besides a drive voltage of 0.045 Vrms, the amplifier OI is 0.1 ohm.


----------



## koshernyituzz

Is this red filter at the end of the sound tube used like damper for smoothing frequency responce? if I can get a sound like etymotic er4? If single driver armature don't use crossover or something else leaves the driver Knowles ED29689 does not need to be adjusted. I understand correctly? thanks guys.
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDF96zKd8Qk&feature=youtu.be


----------



## CMOS1138

interesting, perhaps I will have to experiment with that driver at some point myself.


----------



## wjp007

Anyone experiment with horn designs?
http://www.cylibby.com/horn/
Seem to be common on hearing aid


----------



## MuZo2

wjp007 said:


> Anyone experiment with horn designs?
> http://www.cylibby.com/horn/
> Seem to be common on hearing aid


 

 Fitear F111 has horn-shaped titanium nozzle


----------



## tomscy2000

wjp007 said:


> Anyone experiment with horn designs?
> http://www.cylibby.com/horn/
> Seem to be common on hearing aid


 
  
 Lots of companies use a stepped horn design. The UERM uses a stepped horn for its tweeter portion. piotrus-g's CustomArt creations are mostly horn-loaded designs. LivezoneR41 use horn designs too. Actually, there are too many companies that use it that I can't really think of all of them at the moment.
  
 FullCircle designed the 6.A with a stepped reverse horn for one set of woofers.
  
 Actually, among this group, other than piotrus-g, I think tranhieu has been experimenting with horn designs as well.
  
 As MuZo2 mentioned, only FitEar manages to use a continuous horn design with its F111 and Parterre, as well as an upcoming model.
  
 A Libby horn might not be plausible as there might not be enough room; Libby horns are mostly used for BTE designs, AFAIK.


----------



## tomtomtom

Does anyone have a suggestion on how to mount the BAs inside the shell? I thought about using super glue/tubing cement. Any ideas?


----------



## Mython

tomtomtom said:


> Does anyone have a suggestion on how to mount the BAs inside the shell? I thought about using super glue/tubing cement. Any ideas?


 
  
 Generally, BA mounting is done with a type of UV-cured acrylic.
  
 I suppose epoxy resin _might_ be viable, though.
  
 I would avoid using superglue, if possible, because of the fumes it gives-off, which may, potentially, cause damage to components.
  
 Superglue fumes are even used in forensics, for the purpose of 'fixing' invisible fingerprints - cyanoacrylate fumes should not be underestimated and although some may disagree with me, I would personally never use superglue anywhere near balanced armatures; not for fixing them in place, nor for affixing tubing to the BA nozzles.


----------



## wjp007

tomscy2000 said:


> Lots of companies use a stepped horn design. The UERM uses a stepped horn for its tweeter portion. piotrus-g's CustomArt creations are mostly horn-loaded designs. LivezoneR41 use horn designs too. Actually, there are too many companies that use it that I can't really think of all of them at the moment.
> 
> FullCircle designed the 6.A with a stepped reverse horn for one set of woofers.
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks, I knew the Libby horn would end up being too long.  
  
 rinchoi has an interesting formula that estimates cutoff frequency and gain.  
  
 http://rinchoi.blogspot.com/2013/06/suyama-fit-ear-f111.html
  
 I was thinking of making my own horn by taking a larger diameter tube and heating the middle and stretching it (similar to what you do to make an eyedropper in science class from a glass tube). 
  
 This would create a bridge from 2mm ID at the BA to 4mm ID.  The trick is you want to insert a damper close to the end to prevent standing waves, which wouldn't be possible given the increasing diameter.  A stepped design may suffice.  I just don't know if the formulas do a good job of predicting performance.  There was another thread on headfi of a user creating a universal BA design with a horn and it seemed promising.


----------



## CMOS1138

I would love to see a picture of a horn design actually implemented. I have red about the advantages for high frequency response, I just can't imagine having sufficient space in the ear canal to make one unless you are only using one sound port. I suppose it would be possible to bore out the end of the high frequency port after assembly but I would be concerned with getting debris inside the rest of the sound tube.


----------



## MIke M

Bore it before assembly


----------



## tomtomtom

mython said:


> Generally, BA mounting is done with a type of UV-cured acrylic.
> 
> I suppose epoxy resin _might_ be viable, though.
> 
> ...


 
 Ok thanks,
 I suppose I will use my faceplate glue then for that purpose as well.


----------



## tranhieu

cmos1138 said:


> I would love to see a picture of a horn design actually implemented. I have red about the advantages for high frequency response, I just can't imagine having sufficient space in the ear canal to make one unless you are only using one sound port. I suppose it would be possible to bore out the end of the high frequency port after assembly but I would be concerned with getting debris inside the rest of the sound tube.


 
 Better do it single bore, there won't be enough space for multi-bore with 1 horn unless your ear canals are literally straight with virtually no bend (I've seen some people like that though). 
  
 Personally I see no point of having a horn for CIEM. Better implement it on universal.
  
 I did it once before, but the design was based on Suyama-san's own pair so don't ask me about details, I'm not allowed to reveal it. Just saying it's definitely possible and fairly easy to do.


----------



## wjp007

thanks, I do plan on a single bore. I'm using the gq series driver which has a woofer tweeter combo using a single port. 

tranhieu,
why do you say there is no point on a ciem?


----------



## piotrus-g

tranhieu said:


> Better do it single bore, there won't be enough space for multi-bore with 1 horn unless your ear canals are literally straight with virtually no bend (I've seen some people like that though).
> 
> Personally I see no point of having a horn for CIEM. Better implement it on universal.
> 
> I did it once before, but the design was based on Suyama-san's own pair so don't ask me about details, I'm not allowed to reveal it. Just saying it's definitely possible and fairly easy to do.


 
 Someone's using AcuPass :>
  
 I don't agree with opinion there's no point for that. With tube at still usable length of say 18mm you can boost very audible range. It gives you more highs from one driver, it can be crucial for keeping the cost down - instead of using 3 driver - you can use 2 and get similar response (although not the same sound)


----------



## tranhieu

piotrus-g said:


> Someone's using AcuPass :>
> 
> I don't agree with opinion there's no point for that. With tube at still usable length of say 18mm you can boost very audible range. It gives you more highs from one driver, it can be crucial for keeping the cost down - instead of using 3 driver - you can use 2 and get similar response (although not the same sound)


 
 Opps I forgot Peter is still lurking around here lol
  
 Anyway, the problem with making (long) horns for tweeters is that silicone tube has to be used no matter what, and I'm not a fan of it. It's common knowledge that high frequencies are affected by transmission path the most. I don't have the exact figure but I'm pretty sure absorbing coefficient of silicone isn't that ideal compared to, say titanium (I'm a big fan of that material btw). Plus it's always recommended to have a straight transmission path for tweeters, which is virtually impossible with CIEM shells. To me, when using long horns with CIEMs you are actualy amplifying degenerated high frequencies due to the use of long silicone tube (no offence here Peter, I like your work, it's just me being not comfortable with silicone, that's all).
  
 Btw that prototype up there used no silicone for its tubing 
  
 And if you guys look at how IEMs are designed these days, treble extension is not the top priority out there, unless you want to create a mini HD800. Most people above thirty can't really detect frequencies above 16khz during normal listening so why aim for something higher than that? The only obvious advantage I can see in horns is their capability of lowering the impedance at the tweeter's nozzle to smooth out the upper region. However CIEMs in general don't really need that feature because of their deep insertion.
  
 A short horn is do-able, but there's not much point in having one though.


----------



## tomscy2000

tranhieu said:


> Opps I forgot Peter is still lurking around here lol
> 
> *Anyway, the problem with making (long) horns for tweeters is that silicone tube has to be used no matter what, and I'm not a fan of it. It's common knowledge that high frequencies are affected by transmission path the most.* I don't have the exact figure but I'm pretty sure absorbing coefficient of silicone isn't that ideal compared to, say titanium (I'm a big fan of that material btw). Plus it's always recommended to have a straight transmission path for tweeters, which is virtually impossible with CIEM shells. To me, when using long horns with CIEMs you are actualy amplifying degenerated high frequencies due to the use of long silicone tube (no offence here Peter, I like your work, it's just me being not comfortable with silicone, that's all).
> 
> ...


 
  
 Then, I guess FAD was up to something when they decided to use titanium 3D printing for the LAB I...


----------



## piotrus-g

tranhieu said:


> Opps I forgot Peter is still lurking around here lol
> 
> Anyway, the problem with making (long) horns for tweeters is that silicone tube has to be used no matter what, and I'm not a fan of it. It's common knowledge that high frequencies are affected by transmission path the most. I don't have the exact figure but I'm pretty sure absorbing coefficient of silicone isn't that ideal compared to, say titanium (I'm a big fan of that material btw). Plus it's always recommended to have a straight transmission path for tweeters, which is virtually impossible with CIEM shells. To me, when using long horns with CIEMs you are actualy amplifying degenerated high frequencies due to the use of long silicone tube (no offence here Peter, I like your work, it's just me being not comfortable with silicone, that's all).
> 
> ...


 

 Haha  yeah I am
  
 I don't use silicone tubing actually. I use regular PVC.
  
 I obviously don't want to talk details of my designs, but f.e. Music Two amplifies range that makes actual difference - it's in audible range for any person with healthy hearing.


----------



## Mython

tranhieu said:


> .... if you guys look at how IEMs are designed these days, treble extension is not the top priority out there, unless you want to create a mini HD800. Most people above thirty can't really detect frequencies above 16khz during normal listening so why aim for something higher than that? The only obvious advantage I can see in horns is their capability of lowering the impedance at the tweeter's nozzle to smooth out the upper region. However CIEMs in general don't really need that feature because of their deep insertion.


 
  
  
 Well... Hidition seem pretty keen on ensuring ample treble extension, so there are _some_ (both vendors _and_ customers) who care about this aspect! LOL 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 And let's not forget that the HD800 you mentioned is rather popular (though _not exclusively_ for it's treble extension, obviously)
  
  
  
 NT6 FR chart:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/589208/hidition-nt-6-custom-iem-review-the-ultimate-reference/330#post_10597796
  
  
 NT6 _Pro _FR chart:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/627365/custom-iem-review-hidition-nt-6-pro-clear-precise-fun/330#post_10594609
  
  
  
 .


----------



## wjp007

tranhieu said:


> Opps I forgot Peter is still lurking around here lol
> 
> Anyway, the problem with making (long) horns for tweeters is that silicone tube has to be used no matter what, and I'm not a fan of it. It's common knowledge that high frequencies are affected by transmission path the most. I don't have the exact figure but I'm pretty sure absorbing coefficient of silicone isn't that ideal compared to, say titanium (I'm a big fan of that material btw). Plus it's always recommended to have a straight transmission path for tweeters, which is virtually impossible with CIEM shells. To me, when using long horns with CIEMs you are actualy amplifying degenerated high frequencies due to the use of long silicone tube (no offence here Peter, I like your work, it's just me being not comfortable with silicone, that's all).
> 
> ...


 
 Thank you for detailed explanation.


----------



## piotrus-g

mython said:


> NT6 FR chart:
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/589208/hidition-nt-6-custom-iem-review-the-ultimate-reference/330#post_10597796
> 
> 
> ...


 
 FYI those graphs are not made sine wave into IEC711 coupler, unless they are compensated in some way.


----------



## tranhieu

tomscy2000 said:


> Then, I guess FAD was up to something when they decided to use titanium 3D printing for the LAB I...


 
 Er...What does 3D printing have anything to do with tubing? 
  


piotrus-g said:


> Haha  yeah I am
> 
> I don't use silicone tubing actually. I use regular PVC.
> 
> I obviously don't want to talk details of my designs, but f.e. Music Two amplifies range that makes actual difference - it's in audible range for any person with healthy hearing.


 
  
 Yeah, PVC is much better than silicone, I'm still using it for tubing. But there's still a clear difference when you measure the response via PVC and titanium though. 
  
 I do use horns when designing universal, but reaching 16-18khz is enough for me. 


mython said:


> Well... Hidition seem pretty keen on ensuring ample treble extension, so there are _some_ (both vendors _and_ customers) who care about this aspect! LOL
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 My bad, what I was trying to say was unless you want something reference similar to the HD800 (or whatever highly regarded referenced fones out there), there's no need to reach that high.


----------



## tomscy2000

piotrus-g said:


> FYI those graphs are not made sine wave into IEC711 coupler, unless they are compensated in some way.


 
  
 Yeah, I think they're DF compensated with a -1 dB/octave gradient from 1 kHz for a target response. Characteristic 711 10-12k resonance is there.
  


tranhieu said:


> Er...What does 3D printing have anything to do with tubing?


 
  
 Then you can 3D print the horn... of course, then you'd have to 3D scan the impressions to know how to print the horn, though.


----------



## Mython

tranhieu said:


> My bad, what I was trying to say was unless you want something reference similar to the HD800 (or whatever highly regarded referenced fones out there), there's no need to reach that high.


 
  
  
 Yeah, I took your point, really 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




; I was just being playful in 'returning your serve' a bit 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
 Truth be told, I'm out of my depth with you lot who have significant experience with CIEM building. For me, it's (thus far) just of casual intellectual interest.


----------



## tranhieu

wjp007 said:


> Thank you for detailed explanation.


 
  
 Glad to be of help 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





tomscy2000 said:


> Then you can 3D print the horn... of course, then you'd have to 3D scan the impressions to know how to print the horn, though.


 
 Then it's gonna be one hell of a printer. I tried printing the horn once and gave up that idea right away. CNC offers much better accuracy at far lower cost compared with 3D printing.
  


mython said:


> Yeah, I took your point, really
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 LOL you got me good. 
  
 I'm also doing this purely for fun. The cost is a bit err though...


----------



## piotrus-g

tomscy2000 said:


> Yeah, I think they're DF compensated with a -1 dB/octave gradient from 1 kHz for a target response. Characteristic 711 10-12k resonance is there.


 
 I'm not questioning 711 part - I actually know this is 711 but those graphs are completely different from what I got using sine sweep for NT6Pro.


----------



## MuZo2

tranhieu said:


> Glad to be of help
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I think he is confusing the terms , I guess he meant digital manufacturing and I agree CNC is better solution. It also possible with SLS SLA  which is now standard in hearing aid industry.


----------



## tomscy2000

muzo2 said:


> I think he is confusing the terms , I guess he meant digital manufacturing and I agree CNC is better solution. It also possible with SLS SLA  which is now standard in hearing aid industry.


 
  
 I'm talking about those direct sintering titanium printers. Apparently, they cost $100-200k a machine.


----------



## Mython

tomscy2000 said:


> I'm talking about those direct sintering titanium printers. Apparently, they cost $100-200k a machine.


 
  
 I'm not sure even UE could justify that kind of outlay, for CIEM production purposes.
  
 We all know the prices of 3D-printing technologies will keep tumbling, though, so exciting times ahead...


----------



## piotrus-g

tomscy2000 said:


> I'm talking about those direct sintering titanium printers.


 
 Hooooly c**p! :O


----------



## MuZo2

DMLS why not if they are selling it for $2500


----------



## tranhieu

tomscy2000 said:


> I'm talking about those direct sintering titanium printers. Apparently, they cost $100-200k a machine.


 
 Well, that's one hell of a machine indeed... Are you sure FAD owns one?


----------



## Mython

tranhieu said:


> Well, that's one hell of a machine indeed... Are you sure FAD owns one?


 
  
 Maybe sub-contracting the task to a specialist 3D-printing company?


----------



## MuZo2

I think Lab I is just expensive accessory. I mean the housing. I guess they would sound same in any other shell with any other process.


----------



## Mython

muzo2 said:


> I think Lab I is just expensive accessory. I mean the housing. I guess they would sound same in any other shell with any other process.


 
  
  
 I'm not one for expensive gimmicks, and I'm neither disagreeing or agreeing with the above, but, merely for the sake of discussion, it is interesting to contemplate whether the much-increased density and mass (and strength) of titanium enclosures/shells, in comparison to acrylic/resin/plastic/silicone, etc._ *might*_, on a micro-level, reduce undesirable resonances to a BA or dynamic driver chassis, and thus potentially improve the accuracy and fidelity of the reproduced signal.
  
 My days of designing & building fullsize hi-fi loudspeakers taught me that unwanted resonances can detrimentally affect the fidelity of their reproduction to a surprising degree. Obviously, the physical stresses involved in generating sufficient SPL to convincingly fill a room are vastly greater than those for a tiny signal and tiny SPL in an in-ear application, but even so, we're talking about microscopically-small movements required of the BA diaphragm in order to transduce tiny musical details, so why shouldn't unwanted resonances, however tiny, exert some detrimental influence upon the fidelity of the reproduced audio signal? For this reason, even though I dislike expensive gimmicks, I am going to remain open-minded as to whether metal IEM shells might slightly improve the fidelity of reproduction by comparison with other materials.
  
 I guess, therefore, that the proof will be in the pudding, but I won't personally be buying a FAD product in this lifetime, as I consider their products to be greedily overpriced, to exploit that same 'money-to-burn-without-question' sector of the audiophile marketplace inhabited by the likes of A&K.
  
  
 I still feel there is plenty of mileage in acrylic, on the CIEM side of things, but perhaps we may begin to see some experimentation with metal-_loaded_ plastics in the near future, probably on the 3D-printing side of things.


----------



## CMOS1138

It would be fun to A/B a titanium shell and an acrylic shell and find out if it makes a noticeable change to the sound. I have always been a skeptic about many things in high end audio but I have to say that I have been surprised by the impact that seemingly insignificant things can have on the sound of a CIEM.


----------



## koshernyituzz

Hello guys! I build crossover. I need 22 uF ceramic cap and 27 Ohm, 15 Ohm resistor. What is better MURATA or VENKEL capasitor, and what manufacturer to take resistors? How to determine the voltage of the capacitor I need - 10V or 25V or something else. Thank you guys, I love you.


----------



## vector1

Can I ask what happens if I block the port on the CI driver? As it is facing forward, and I'm printing a rubber boot to fit the drivers in, it's not going to get any air, if at all.
  
 I have bought the CI, WBFK and DTECs already, and am going to start printing/testing next week. For fun, here's my latest design of the shell (still have to separate into left/right designs by mirroring the drivers)


----------



## CMOS1138

vector1 said:


> Can I ask what happens if I block the port on the CI driver? As it is facing forward, and I'm printing a rubber boot to fit the drivers in, it's not going to get any air, if at all.
> 
> I have bought the CI, WBFK and DTECs already, and am going to start printing/testing next week. For fun, here's my latest design of the shell (still have to separate into left/right designs by mirroring the drivers)


 
 I suspect this will result in reduced base output.


----------



## MuZo2

Where is the nozle on shell? Is there enough space for crossover components?  Also you can skip the tubing and integrate them into shell , just the Westone4 or shure iems.


----------



## vector1

muzo2 said:


> Where is the nozle on shell? Is there enough space for crossover components?  Also you can skip the tubing and integrate them into shell , just the Westone4 or shure iems.


 
 Here you go, the latest iteration of my design.
  
 I tested it out with a 0.75mm wall thickness and it's nice and transparent!
  
 The no tubing idea was already in the works, and you can note the "boot" fitting into a smaller notch, and the drivers held in place inside. The CI is offset about 3mm behind the WBFKs and 2mm behind the DTECs so I can push a red filter in there if I want.
  
 I'm using tiny tiny resistors/capacitors (1206 SMD) size which are about 3mm long, so no worries about fitting a whole crossover network inside if i want to. There's plenty of space behind the WBFK on the opposite side.
  
 I need to ask, what happens if the metal cases of the drivers are in direct contact? There's no electrical interference/grounding going on right? Also, what diameter nozzle should I choose? I'm currently using a 3mm nozzle with 1mm inner diameter for extra strength. Which is most compatible with shure olives?
  
 I'll try to get some photos of the semi completed IEMs tomorrow when I print this copy.


----------



## MuZo2

I think 2.2 is inside dia and most filters are in nozle in Westone and shure series.
 Also there is no problem if two drivers stick together.
 Good luck fitting those components in that shell.


----------



## Q Mass

That's some really nice work there dude!
 I envy your CAD skills.
  
 Have you seen the new connector/cable offered by Linum?
 It might be worth looking at for a couple of reasons:
  
 1.It's smaller, and may give you a tiny bit more room, or a smaller 'hood' to house the connector, or more material round the connector for strength.
  
 2.Linum's claims for the mechanical performance/robustness are truly exceptional compared to existing connectors.
  
 Oh, and since it's so tiny, it looks great, almost like a fixed cable! ( exactly like a fixed cable when the socket is recessed )
  
 I don't mean to suggest that there's anything wrong with your design as is though!
 I'm just 'that guy' who can't help flapping his gums about how he'd improve that lilly if only he had access to some gilding facilities  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Well done!
 Looking forward to seeing your posts on the rest of the process.


----------



## Mython

q mass said:


> .... how he'd improve that lilly if only he had access to some gilding facilities


 
  
 LOL!  _Nicely put _


----------



## vector1

Quote: 





q mass said:


> That's some really nice work there dude!
> I envy your CAD skills.
> 
> Have you seen the new connector/cable offered by Linum?
> ...


 
 I'm an engineering student hence such skills are hard not to come by .
  
 While that Linum connector looks great, I've already purchased a local made cable for mmcx connector. After this project, if I decide to go down the custom IEM route I might consider upgrading again!
  
 I wanted to standardize on an easy to find cable which is why I chose the MMCX style connector even if it's slightly large. I'm sure you're agree that my shells are already quite small compared to the commercial ones, especially for a CI/DTEC/WBFK combo.
  
 Certainly I'm happy to take onboard all suggestions as this is my first time making IEMs, and I'm happy that this community exists! Please keep up the feedback .
  
 MuZo, will having a 1mm inner diameter for the nozzle impact the sound greatly? I'm more concerned about the nozzle breaking off, which is why I've set a 1mm thickness for the walls.
  
 Does anyone know what is the maximum outer diameter of nozzle that will fit shure olives well?
  
 My first round of printing. Note some imperfections (not glossy) on the underside of the right-most nozzle which might cause it to fail, plus some broken supports (increased size already) but the size and fit are roughly correct! I'm currently doing another run, this time with the boot to fit drivers in!


----------



## Mython

I must say, I'm a bit disappointed that you're not printing these out of titanium


----------



## tomtomtom

mython said:


> Generally, BA mounting is done with a type of UV-cured acrylic.
> 
> I suppose epoxy resin _might_ be viable, though.
> 
> ...


 
 How about mounting of the tubes? Would you recommend the same UV curing acrylic?


----------



## vector1

mython said:


> I must say, I'm a bit disappointed that you're not printing these out of titanium


 
  
 If I could, I would ^^.


----------



## MuZo2

Nozzle diameter would sure affect the sound. I would go with standard 2.2 inner and 3.2 on outer. I think thickness should be fine and wont break.


----------



## vector1

muzo2 said:


> Nozzle diameter would sure affect the sound. I would go with standard 2.2 inner and 3.2 on outer. I think thickness should be fine and wont break.


 
 I will try it out, thanks!


----------



## Xymordos

I saw that Knowles announced new drivers that are more efficient: HODVTEC and SWFK. Anyone know when will they be out?


----------



## MIke M

been out for a while


----------



## vector1

Sadly, I have killed one of my WBFKs in testing when I managed to rip off the solder pad and break the wires underneath, most likely due to excessive flexing.
  
 I'll keep testing with the other one, and order whatever I break/need after I'm done because of the $30 shipping cost unless I have an order more than $135 .
  
 Lesson learnt, make sure wires have stress relief, especially when testing.
  
 Also. I have this bad feeling that the CI and DTEC combo is too strong in the bass when combined. CI is overwhelmingly loud and muddies up the mid range if unfiltered.
  
 Using a 2nd order 100uF/4ohm lowpass (x2) I managed to tame down the CI till it's just a thumping at the bottom frequency range.
  
 Just having the bandpass filter in place seems to affect the DTEC frequency response, which is puzzling since I thought having the DTEC unfiltered should give the same response. Is there some interactions between the filter and driver that I'm not considering?
  
 On the other hand, having the filtered CI, unfiltered DTEC and a 0.1uF cap on the WBFK seems to yield a reasonable sound.


----------



## Xymordos

But they're not for retail sale anywhere?
  
 I was planning to make one with the typical CI as lows, ED29689 as Mids and another ED29689 as highs. I only want to use a high frequency cross over and try to use other things to tune the bottom and the mids. Wonder if it'll work. Are the frequency outputs of the two drivers around the same loudness? CI seems to give off 120db of bass on the graphs while ED only gives 100db of mid/high.


----------



## MIke M

which drivers? if you are talking about the hodvtec, it only has one sound port. if you are talking hodvtec and swfk, no they are not the same but really no diff than using an ed and ci. You just gotta get your xover system right


----------



## piotrus-g

xymordos said:


> But they're not for retail sale anywhere?
> 
> I was planning to make one with the typical CI as lows, ED29689 as Mids and another ED29689 as highs. I only want to use a high frequency cross over and try to use other things to tune the bottom and the mids. Wonder if it'll work. Are the frequency outputs of the two drivers around the same loudness? CI seems to give off 120db of bass on the graphs while ED only gives 100db of mid/high.


 

 Don't use 29689 for mids use some other ED driver.
 If you want use mid driver as full-range - pick driver that has higher impedance >10 Ohm. Overall ED family would be good choice.
 Level bass output of CI with small resistor ~20 Ohm if combined with mid-tweeter driver or ~40Ohm+ if combined with full range driver.


----------



## vector1

xymordos said:


> But they're not for retail sale anywhere?
> 
> I was planning to make one with the typical CI as lows, ED29689 as Mids and another ED29689 as highs. I only want to use a high frequency cross over and try to use other things to tune the bottom and the mids. Wonder if it'll work. Are the frequency outputs of the two drivers around the same loudness? CI seems to give off 120db of bass on the graphs while ED only gives 100db of mid/high.


 
  
 To be honest, I'm having problems meshing the DTEC and CI together as the CI is really that much louder and muddying up the bass. Unless you have a clear inclination to experiment with low pass filters to tame the CI, I'd advice not using it.
  
 Currently I have to use 2nd order lowpass to reduce the effects of the CI, but there are some interactions with the DTEC which reduces it's output too.


----------



## Xymordos

piotrus-g said:


> Don't use 29689 for mids use some other ED driver.
> If you want use mid driver as full-range - pick driver that has higher impedance >10 Ohm. Overall ED family would be good choice.
> Level bass output of CI with small resistor ~20 Ohm if combined with mid-tweeter driver or ~40Ohm+ if combined with full range driver.


 
  
 Thanks for the advice! Would the FED series be any good? I saw that FED30048 was sometimes used as mid drivers in certain IEM(s), but it is listed under hearing aid drivers. Is the ED29689 driver suitable for highs? I saw that the UERM used two of the same drivers for mid and high, which made me very interested in making an IEM with similar configurations. Are there any good drivers that I can use for both mid and high?
  


vector1 said:


> To be honest, I'm having problems meshing the DTEC and CI together as the CI is really that much louder and muddying up the bass. Unless you have a clear inclination to experiment with low pass filters to tame the CI, I'd advice not using it.
> 
> Currently I have to use 2nd order lowpass to reduce the effects of the CI, but there are some interactions with the DTEC which reduces it's output too.


 
  
 I have a place where I can get all sorts of different tubing, made with different materials and diameters. I have access to PTFE, Silicon, Copper, Stainless steel with diameters as small as 0.3mm. So I was hoping to try a large amount of tubing to see which one performs best.


----------



## piotrus-g

xymordos said:


> Thanks for the advice! Would the FED series be any good? I saw that FED30048 was sometimes used as mid drivers in certain IEM(s), but it is listed under hearing aid drivers. Is the ED29689 driver suitable for highs? I saw that the UERM used two of the same drivers for mid and high, which made me very interested in making an IEM with similar configurations. Are there any good drivers that I can use for both mid and high?
> 
> 
> I have a place where I can get all sorts of different tubing, made with different materials and diameters. I have access to PTFE, Silicon, Copper, Stainless steel with diameters as small as 0.3mm. So I was hoping to try a large amount of tubing to see which one performs best.


 
 FED for mids - yes definitely but you'll need ED29689 to take over from around 1kHz.
 You could use BK driver as well, it has nice range from 20 to 4000Hz.
  
 Consider using ED-23619 with 10 Ohm resistor or ED-23162
 If you want extra bass boost use ED-23147


----------



## Xymordos

piotrus-g said:


> FED for mids - yes definitely but you'll need ED29689 to take over from around 1kHz.
> You could use BK driver as well, it has nice range from 20 to 4000Hz.
> 
> Consider using ED-23619 with 10 Ohm resistor or ED-23162
> If you want extra bass boost use ED-23147


 
 Thanks so much for the suggestions! But what is wrong for ED29689 as mids? 
  
 I actually wonder if there is a driver that you can use as both mid and highs, as in, for example ED29689 as mids, and ED29689 as highs. Since I see the UERM uses a similar configuration which seems to be Sonion drivers. The Knowles driver sizes didn't seem to match the two mid/high drivers on there.
  
 Also, what's the difference between CI30050 and CI22955? (Sorry for all the questions )
  
 Edit: Perhaps I'll have to stick a WBFK as highs...


----------



## piotrus-g

xymordos said:


> Thanks so much for the suggestions! But what is wrong for ED29689 as mids?
> 
> I actually wonder if there is a driver that you can use as both mid and highs, as in, for example ED29689 as mids, and ED29689 as highs. Since I see the UERM uses a similar configuration which seems to be Sonion drivers. The Knowles driver sizes didn't seem to match the two mid/high drivers on there.
> 
> ...


 
 It is tweeter. It has slightly "dry" mids, nothing that would sound extraordinary. You could use it as fullrange if you wanted, but it doesn't mean it will rock your socks off. Sonion has slightly different signature even drivers designed for the same target like ED26869 and Sonion 2389 sounds quite different.
  
 IN UERM mids are carried by CI drivers.
  
 difference between CI30050 and CI22955 - impedance and port location.
  
 CI22955 - use as a full range with 3300 ohm damper 16mm-22mm tubing
 ED26869 - use 1-2,2uF cap - 13-16mm tubing 680 ohm damper
 WBFK - connect it in second order after ED with another 1uF 10-13mm tubing 680 damper
  
 You'll get very nice "big" sound.
  
 If you're unable to make 3x 2mmID tubing - use single tube for ED and WBFK.


----------



## Xymordos

Thanks for the detailed explanation! 
  
 I'll definitely use your suggestions, as well as play around with tubing material and lengths. That combination sounds pretty attractive to use actually. As tweeters, did you find out which driver is more resolving? WBFK or the 29689? I wanted to test out if a long long tube of small diameter (e.g. 0.3mm) would have a significant effect on bass, but I feel like if the tube is too long a lot of bass detail will be lost and all you hear will be a low thud. 
  
 Edit: One interesting observation to note. My UERM has a faulty CI driver on one side that sometimes switches off randomly (not due to connection issues unfortunately...), and whenever it does that, you can hear the vocals still very clearly and focused, but the bottom (bass) half of the right side goes missing. The sound stage for the treble and mids still seems fine, but the bass part will collapse.


----------



## piotrus-g

xymordos said:


> Thanks for the detailed explanation!
> 
> I'll definitely use your suggestions, as well as play around with tubing material and lengths. That combination sounds pretty attractive to use actually. As tweeters, did you find out which driver is more resolving? WBFK or the 29689? I wanted to test out if a long long tube of small diameter (e.g. 0.3mm) would have a significant effect on bass, but I feel like if the tube is too long a lot of bass detail will be lost and all you hear will be a low thud.


 
 ED will sound more "natural" less aggressive.
 WBFK will be more clearer in upper range 10kHz+
 ED offers very good range between 1kHz to 16kHz
 WBFK is best for 6kHz-20kHz range.
  
 As for tubing, such small diameter and long tube will result in low pass filter - but I don't think there would be need for tube longer than 20mm to cut off highs, without cutting off bas-mid. You have to calculate it ...or measure it if you can.
 Any longer tube like 30mm will result in phase incoherency between other drivers.


----------



## Xymordos

Ah I see! So WBFK would be used as a super tweeter, while ED can be used for the highs. 
 For the phase incoherence of the bass driver, I was thinking of perhaps having a driver for low bass and have it deliberately slightly phase incoherent, but with acoustic low pass filter to make it only output delayed super low bass to make the sound more interesting. Would be interesting to test it!


----------



## tranhieu

^ You don't need to care much about phase alignment of the sub woofer as quarter wavelength of sub 1khz frequencies is about 8cm and above. However beware of the slope at your cutoff frequency, if it's not steep enough the sub woofer's phase might screw up the lower midrange region.


----------



## Xymordos

piotrus-g said:


> CI22955 - use as a full range with 3300 ohm damper 16mm-22mm tubing
> ED26869 - use 1-2,2uF cap - 13-16mm tubing 680 ohm damper
> WBFK - connect it in second order after ED with another 1uF 10-13mm tubing 680 damper


 
  
 So according to this my cutoff points would be ~3kHz and ~12kHz? Hope my calculations are correct  
  
@tranhieu I see, so I'll have to find a way to sharply drop off the frequencies of CI above 1kHz for a long tubing to work. This must be quite difficult to do since most crossovers seem to drop off not that steep.


----------



## piotrus-g

xymordos said:


> So according to this my cutoff points would be ~3kHz and ~12kHz? Hope my calculations are correct
> 
> @tranhieu I see, so I'll have to find a way to sharply drop off the frequencies of CI above 1kHz for a long tubing to work. This must be quite difficult to do since most crossovers seem to drop off not that steep.


 
 Pretty much.
  
 Use dampers to attenuate frequencies above 1kHz.


----------



## vector1

I managed to lift off the solder pads and break the wires on both my WBFKs that I ordered, so I have another 4 more on the way in case I destroy more. *Be careful with the heat applied to the driver when soldering!* The larger drivers can tolerate more, but the tiny WBFKs aren't too good.
  
 I have also found that a 2nd order lowpass filter does reduce the CI to a low "thud", but as I'm leaning on the DTEC for the mids, my initial plan of getting the subbass from CI alone seems to be working out. Next step is to insert the red acoustic filters and see if I can get away with a first order.
  
 I'll have to test the whole system once I get the WBFKs next week, but before it broke, the WBFK just gave that little sparkle to the highs without affecting the mids too much. The slightly lower sensitivity is somewhat of a bonus since it doesn't make the sound signature too bright, but I'll test further with different capacitor values.


----------



## piotrus-g

Your design, Vector, is missing ~2,5kHz peak needed to make sound "clear" or "naturally bright".


----------



## vector1

piotrus-g said:


> Your design, Vector, is missing ~2,5kHz peak needed to make sound "clear" or "naturally bright".


 
  
 Unless I'm reading the FR graphs wrongly, I thought the DTECs handle that range particularly well? At least, a WBFK + DTEC should provide sufficient upper mid range response, coupled with my acoustic tuning by increasing inner diameter of passages to ~1.4mm. I can increase this further to boost the 1-2kHz response if I feel that the mids are too recessed.


----------



## piotrus-g

vector1 said:


> Unless I'm reading the FR graphs wrongly, I thought the DTECs handle that range particularly well? At least, a WBFK + DTEC should provide sufficient upper mid range response, coupled with my acoustic tuning by increasing inner diameter of passages to ~1.4mm. I can increase this further to boost the 1-2kHz response if I feel that the mids are too recessed.


 
 DTEC with tubing length around 16mm will move peaks to 1,5kHz and further to the left. and you won't be able to level it down much by tubing diameter. As I understand you'll be using 2200 damper which will affect range between 800Hz and 6kHz decreasing response by around 4-6dB.
 WBFK, I don't know where you plan to cut it, but it has very flat response and peak around 5-8kHz (depending on tubing).
 What I'm saying your frequency response will look like this - bump in bass and mid bass. practically flat (~2-3dB differences) between 700-4kHz and peak at 8-10kHz and then practically flat to 20kHz
 It will sound mid-recessed, vocals may sound hollow. Bass and highs will be dominant though.
  
 It also comes down to how good you'll be able to handle phase canceling. You may end up with big gap or peak in certain frequencies.


----------



## koshernyituzzz

http://s57.radikal.ru/i156/1406/cd/8ac60999c4fa.jpg
  
 http://i065.radikal.ru/1406/d6/b52c46ea07c8.jpg
  
 http://s006.radikal.ru/i214/1406/55/85a353174287.jpg
  
 Could you help me please. What wire used here, is it copper litz or something else? what is better to use wire?


----------



## piotrus-g

Litz wire.


----------



## vector1

piotrus-g said:


> Litz wire.


 
  


piotrus-g said:


> DTEC with tubing length around 16mm will move peaks to 1,5kHz and further to the left. and you won't be able to level it down much by tubing diameter. As I understand you'll be using 2200 damper which will affect range between 800Hz and 6kHz decreasing response by around 4-6dB.
> WBFK, I don't know where you plan to cut it, but it has very flat response and peak around 5-8kHz (depending on tubing).
> What I'm saying your frequency response will look like this - bump in bass and mid bass. practically flat (~2-3dB differences) between 700-4kHz and peak at 8-10kHz and then practically flat to 20kHz
> It will sound mid-recessed, vocals may sound hollow. Bass and highs will be dominant though.
> ...


 
  
 One thing to note is that with my 3d printing, tubing size/length is completely adjustable as long it fits in the shell. This is because I'm literally printing the boot to fit the drivers in, as can be seen in the photo during my testing. The shell is also very small compared to westone's w60 series, I just tested them the day before. If I need more space, I can always lengthen the shell up to 5mm.
  
 Interesting. I can make several changes, could you give an opinion on that?
  
 1) Move the DTEC forward to minimize distance/shift peaks? I can do that by around 2-3mm, because currently the WBFK is nearly right beside the output channel to maximize sound output.
  
 2) 2200 damper will only be on the CI channel, closer to the receiver, not on the main nozzle. This isn't so much of a change as what I was initially planning, so is this a good idea?
  
 3) Phase cancelling can be somewhat attenuated by reversing the polarity of the drivers? I read somewhere that the deep cancellation becomes a small peak if reversed. I'll have to do that by ear and running a sweep.
  
 I'm going to tune the drivers by ear as I have just got a load of variable resistors and small caps to test out.
  
 As I read more and more, designing a passive crossover just feels like a shot in the dark, even with measurements, and an active crossover seems like the only way to really get good results. After this set, I think I'll run my own design of active crossovers if I reshell it into DIY customs for my ear.
  
 This is my current testing shell (got a long nozzle for the tip).


----------



## Xymordos

When I was reading this
  
 CI22955 - use as a full range with 3300 ohm damper 16mm-22mm tubing
 ED26869 - use 1-2,2uF cap - 13-16mm tubing 680 ohm damper
 WBFK - connect it in second order after ED with another 1uF 10-13mm tubing 680 damper
  
 Do I have to connect any of the drivers in reverse polarity? I couldn't get my head around the high frequency drivers, crossovers, and how they affect phase haha...


----------



## piotrus-g

xymordos said:


> When I was reading this
> 
> CI22955 - use as a full range with 3300 ohm damper 16mm-22mm tubing
> ED26869 - use 1-2,2uF cap - 13-16mm tubing 680 ohm damper
> ...


 

 connect CI in phase, ED in reverse phase and WBFK with 2nd order crossover in the same phase as CI or in reverse polarity if you use 1st order.


----------



## Xymordos

Thanks for your help! All my drivers will be arriving at the end of the week for me to solder  
  
 What is the method to calculate the phase shifts? I remember there was a post that had the description written out, but I can't seem to find it anymore.


----------



## piotrus-g

vector1 said:


> One thing to note is that with my 3d printing, tubing size/length is completely adjustable as long it fits in the shell. This is because I'm literally printing the boot to fit the drivers in, as can be seen in the photo during my testing. The shell is also very small compared to westone's w60 series, I just tested them the day before. If I need more space, I can always lengthen the shell up to 5mm.
> 
> Interesting. I can make several changes, could you give an opinion on that?
> 
> ...


 
 I see
  
 1. move  DTEC an CI to the front and WBFK as far to the back as possible
 2. You have to use damper on DTEC unless you're running it with low pass.
 3. That' s true but will be difficult to judge by ear unless you have golden ears.
  
 The problem you have here is you've chosen two woofers and a super tweeter. Neither DTEC nor CI have good 1-4kHz range.
 Probably the best option for you would be following:
 DTEC - low pass between 200-800Hz
 CI as full-range with resistor ~40Ohm.
 WBFK from around 2-3kHz
  
 In my mind this will result in most balanced frequency response.


----------



## CMOS1138

I am playing around with the knowles GQ-30783 driver today, I am getting a rather bright response from it with no damper and a tube length around 3 cm, I tested it with a tube length of around 7 cm and I liked that sound quite a bit but that is far to long of a tube to work in a shell. What damper should I use to get a similar response? I have 680 on hand but I will need to order anything else.


----------



## vector1

piotrus-g said:


> I see
> 
> 1. move  DTEC an CI to the front and WBFK as far to the back as possible
> 2. You have to use damper on DTEC unless you're running it with low pass.
> ...


 
  
 Interesting. I have tested with sine wave generators, and I can detect a very perceptible dip at the 1.8k-2k range when listening to just the CI/DTECs, so you're absolutely right.
  
 I'm still awaiting the arrival of my WBFKs which I destroyed, but I think you're also right about WBFK not contributing to the 1-4k range.
  
 I have made several modifications as you recommend, but why would you push WBFK to the back? 
  
 Also,on further reflection I think there might not be space to squeeze the damper into the CI channel alone because I need at least 5mm, and I currently have around 2.5mm space, unless I lengthen the entire IEM which I'm trying not to at the moment.
  
 Do you have any recommendations on a different driver that is suitable for the midrange?
  
 Here is my latest set for testing now.
  
 This is the drivers in the boot, WBFK moved back, widened the bore on DTEC and CI and prepared rubber plugs to hold the driver nozzles in place, made the inside a little smoother in case that affects the sound.

  
 This is the exterior, as MuZo said, the nozzle ID is 2.2 and OD of 3.2.


----------



## tranhieu

^ awesome CAD drawing there! 
 Quote:


piotrus-g said:


> I see
> 
> 1. move  DTEC an CI to the front and WBFK as far to the back as possible
> 2. You have to use damper on DTEC unless you're running it with low pass.
> ...


 
 The CI is very sensitive to dampening resistors, if it were me I wouldn't go as far as 40ohm, not only you are reducing its SPL but bass decay will also be significantly reduced as a result. 10-20ohm should be enough to keep it controlled without losing too much of its signature (personally I always stay within 13-18ohm). If it's still too loud vector might need to consider another driver as sub woofer.


----------



## vector1

tranhieu said:


> The CI is very sensitive to dampening resistors, if it were me I wouldn't go as far as 40ohm, not only you are reducing its SPL but bass decay will also be significantly reduced as a result. 10-20ohm should be enough to keep it controlled without losing too much of its signature (personally I always stay within 13-18ohm). If it's still too loud vector might need to consider another driver as sub woofer.


 
 I have several pots that I'm just tuning to find the right sound blindly 
  
 Currently I'm listening to the reversed arrangement (CI full range on resistor, DTEC on lowpass and it's pretty good!)
  
 Could you suggest alternatives? I'm open to getting an alternative driver, and using either CI or DTEC as the woofer.


----------



## tranhieu

vector1 said:


> I have several pots that I'm just tuning to find the right sound blindly
> 
> Currently I'm listening to the reversed arrangement (CI full range on resistor, DTEC on lowpass and it's pretty good!)
> 
> Could you suggest alternatives? I'm open to getting an alternative driver, and using either CI or DTEC as the woofer.


 
 If you are willing to get a tray of 25 same drivers from Sonion then I will throw in the 3300, 1700 and 3800. The BK might make a good substitute but their lows' signature is a far cry from the CI, as well as other specs. You might be better off with just the DTEC alone as woofer.
  
 Anyway, CI is pretty much the best sub woofer-like driver you can get in single units from Knowles. It has nice sub bass, so-so mid bass, not so good upper bass but that can be solved with a high order filter. Their only down side is the long decay & slow response, which would fit slow/relaxing music like jazz or some vocal. Size factor is another thing needs considering but they're not too bad compared to the DTEC for example. 
  
 If you think what you're hearing is good then no need to switch. You're not tuning for someone else anyway.


----------



## vector1

tranhieu said:


> If you are willing to get a tray of 25 same drivers from Sonion then I will throw in the 3300, 1700 and 3800. The BK might make a good substitute but their lows' signature is a far cry from the CI, as well as other specs. You might be better off with just the DTEC alone as woofer.
> 
> Anyway, CI is pretty much the best sub woofer-like driver you can get in single units from Knowles. It has nice sub bass, so-so mid bass, not so good upper bass but that can be solved with a high order filter. Their only down side is the long decay & slow response, which would fit slow/relaxing music like jazz or some vocal. Size factor is another thing needs considering but they're not too bad compared to the DTEC for example.
> 
> If you think what you're hearing is good then no need to switch. You're not tuning for someone else anyway.


 
  
 I think 25 drivers will be kind of out of my budget haha!
  
 What about the DWFK as a mid? I haven't see anyone use it yet.


----------



## tranhieu

vector1 said:


> I think 25 drivers will be kind of out of my budget haha!
> 
> What about the DWFK as a mid? I haven't see anyone use it yet.


 
 Some companies used it before. This list might give you an idea what drivers are commonly used in the market https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AoHxSlnX1Un0dC1iMS1qN1VMODV4Wnd0a0xiNHVXLVE&output=html&richtext=true
  
 It is managed by this guy http://84audio.blog27.fc2.com/ and various members of 2chan. You might find some useful info there, the CIEM diy community in Japan is very active.


----------



## Xymordos

Interesting list! So my UERM is actually two way rather than the three way UE claims!


----------



## tomscy2000

xymordos said:


> Interesting list! So my UERM is actually two way rather than the three way UE claims!


 
  
 Depends on how you want to define "way". The tweeters are run differently; one is run with zero-bias, the other is run with center-tap configuration, and the two seem linked in series to the same cap. In terms of passive components, it's two-way, but center-tap biases DC current differently, so it can be argued that it's three-way.


----------



## Xymordos

Wouldn't a series configuration mess up the phase?


----------



## piotrus-g

cmos1138 said:


> I am playing around with the knowles GQ-30783 driver today, I am getting a rather bright response from it with no damper and a tube length around 3 cm, I tested it with a tube length of around 7 cm and I liked that sound quite a bit but that is far to long of a tube to work in a shell. What damper should I use to get a similar response? I have 680 on hand but I will need to order anything else.


 
 I'd say 3cm is very long, try going with 16mm and 1000 ohm damper
  


vector1 said:


> Interesting. I have tested with sine wave generators, and I can detect a very perceptible dip at the 1.8k-2k range when listening to just the CI/DTECs, so you're absolutely right.
> 
> I'm still awaiting the arrival of my WBFKs which I destroyed, but I think you're also right about WBFK not contributing to the 1-4k range.
> 
> ...


 
 Glad to hear it. Moving WBFK back will slightly change output and will also improve impulse time response.
  
 ED or BK will work good on mids. ED will give brighter sound, BK will be more "sweet" and lush, probably you could try EF - I have no idea how it sounds though. vented type EF is a woofer in Audeo 232.
  
  


tranhieu said:


> The CI is very sensitive to dampening resistors, if it were me I wouldn't go as far as 40ohm, not only you are reducing its SPL but bass decay will also be significantly reduced as a result. 10-20ohm should be enough to keep it controlled without losing too much of its signature (personally I always stay within 13-18ohm). If it's still too loud vector might need to consider another driver as sub woofer.


 
 I was working with CI on Sunday. 20 Ohm damper cuts off 2.5dB given that CI will be working with DTEC 40 Ohms is not that much, if both drivers are aligned in phase.
 in phase: DTEC+CI = +6db increase
 in phase: DTEC+CI+40 Ohm = +1dB increase.
 The only question is what is the target - bass heavy or natural bass. The first will be bass heavy the second will be closer to natural.
  


vector1 said:


> I have several pots that I'm just tuning to find the right sound blindly
> 
> Currently I'm listening to the reversed arrangement (CI full range on resistor, DTEC on lowpass and it's pretty good!)
> 
> Could you suggest alternatives? I'm open to getting an alternative driver, and using either CI or DTEC as the woofer.


 
 I'm glad you liked the design
  


vector1 said:


> I think 25 drivers will be kind of out of my budget haha!
> 
> What about the DWFK as a mid? I haven't see anyone use it yet.


 
 I do have DWFK on my stock, but haven't got time to try it out, so I have no idea how it sounds. DWFK seems on paper as ideal full range dual driver. so probably it could be used for any frequency. Please note that since it's vented dual FK you probably won't be using it as tweeter.
 DTEC + DWFK could be very fine set up.
  


xymordos said:


> Wouldn't a series configuration mess up the phase?


 
 It won't mess up but will change the phase quite a bit. Nothing that cannot be planned when designing an IEM.


----------



## tranhieu

tomscy2000 said:


> Depends on how you want to define "way". The tweeters are run differently; one is run with zero-bias, the other is run with center-tap configuration, and the two seem linked in series to the same cap. In terms of passive components, it's two-way, but center-tap biases DC current differently, so it can be argued that it's three-way.


 
 They both are half wired.
  


piotrus-g said:


> I was working with CI on Sunday. 20 Ohm damper cuts off 2.5dB given that CI will be working with DTEC 40 Ohms is not that much, if both drivers are aligned in phase.
> in phase: DTEC+CI = +6db increase
> in phase: DTEC+CI+40 Ohm = +1dB increase.
> The only question is what is the target - bass heavy or natural bass. The first will be bass heavy the second will be closer to natural.


 
 Did you also compare the CSDs? On 10ohm bass decay reduction is very noticeable, 15ohm is clearly audible and on 20ohm it doesn't sound like the original CI anymore.


----------



## piotrus-g

tranhieu said:


> Did you also compare the CSDs? On 10ohm bass decay reduction is very noticeable, 15ohm is clearly audible and on 20ohm it doesn't sound like the original CI anymore.


 
 No I didn't but finial IEMs were not lacking bass at all. and the response (+TWFK) was actually pretty impressive.


----------



## tomscy2000

tranhieu said:


> They both are half wired.


 
  
 Hmm, you're right. I looked at it too quickly.


----------



## vector1

I seem to have encountered a problem with the CIs. The left channel seems to be buzzing in the mid bass region when the volume goes up, however I can't replicate this issue with the right channel even when i have switched every single component except the driver and connecting wires. It was not present earlier when I was testing it either to the best of my knowledge, and only appeared this morning.
  
 Could I have accidentally damaged the CIs even when I'm not touching/playing music through it? It was fine last night, and this morning I suddenly noticed a intermittent buzz.


----------



## MIke M

Intermittent? Good luck, could be anything. If it goes away then it's prolly not the driver. How are your receivers positioned, are they glued in place so that they don't vibrate against each other or the shell?


----------



## vector1

mike m said:


> Intermittent? Good luck, could be anything. If it goes away then it's prolly not the driver. How are your receivers positioned, are they glued in place so that they don't vibrate against each other or the shell?


 
 When I say intermittent I mean it only appears at the bass region of certain tracks, and is completely reproducible and gets worse with increasing volume, like greater distortion.
  
 I haven't glued anything into place but the drivers are tightly packed against each other, so there's not much room to vibrate. It still occurs when I remove one side of the shell.


----------



## MIke M

The drivers are mechanical, anything mechanical can fail. Usually when a driver fails (atleast what I've seen) they drop out or go low volume. If its not glued, I'd test the driver by itself without any resistors, then you'd know for sure


----------



## MIke M

Depending on how it is setup, a CI will distort if over driven. If its not happening at normal listening volumes, then you are probably alright.


----------



## vector1

mike m said:


> Depending on how it is setup, a CI will distort if over driven. If its not happening at normal listening volumes, then you are probably alright.


 
  
 The trouble is that it only happens at one ear, and at normal listening volumes, and i have tested it full range without resistors and it's even more detectable.


----------



## MIke M

Sucks, but it sounds like u may be buying another CI. I'd take it out and drive it by itself first though


----------



## tranhieu

Most likely that CI was shorted in the process. You'd be better off buying another one.


----------



## vector1

Interestingly, after I moved the drivers back to an older housing, it seems to have dissipated. I think the rubber plug i printed to help seal the channel was flapping/covering the outlet and causing the distortion.
  
 I might just make the channel to fit the nozzle in a single material next week instead of having multiple materials (rigid and rubber) in the same print.
  
 False alarm!


----------



## MuZo2

Can you post pics of new shells with different material. What printer are you using?


----------



## tranhieu

Vector1 I didn't notice, but you can print rubber as well?


----------



## Q Mass

tranhieu said:


> Vector1 I didn't notice, but you can print rubber as well?



And mixed materials in the SAME PRINT!?
Wow, Didn't know that could be done, cool.


----------



## vector1

Google Objet 260
  
 It's the cheapest of the high end polymeric material printers, and I can print in either veroclear (transparent rigid plastic) or tangoblack plus (rubber) all in the same print. I am however printing the rubber plugs separately and squeezing them in for better control.
  
 The advantage is I can also print a mixture of both materials, which yields an in-between material of slightly more rigid rubber, or more flexible plastic.
  
 I'll try to get more photos of the prints next week with more improvements.
  
 I'm waiting on my WBFK delivery before I continue testing so it's a break for the weekend!


----------



## CMOS1138

I have resolved a few comfort issues I was having with my CIEM's and I can pass along the following advice.
  
 First, don't make the canal section to long, you only want them to go slightly past the 2nd bend. Beyond the 2nd bend, the ear canal is very delicate and easy to traumatize with even small amounts of pressure or movement and in addition, going deeper than that wont produce a better sound.
  
 Second, the cable connection should come out of the shell at a 45° angle and have plenty of clearance. Most peoples outer ears are not flush against their heads and the surface of the CIEM will be at an angle with the front pointed into the head, if the cable connection is parallel with the surface of the CIEM, than the cable will dig into your temple and give you a headache like you wouldn't believe. This can also prevent the CIEM from sitting properly in the ear when the cable is plugged in resulting in a poor seal and an uncomfortable fit.


----------



## vector1

cmos1138 said:


> I have resolved a few comfort issues I was having with my CIEM's and I can pass along the following advice.
> 
> First, don't make the canal section to long, you only want them to go slightly past the 2nd bend. Beyond the 2nd bend, the ear canal is very delicate and easy to traumatize with even small amounts of pressure or movement and in addition, going deeper than that wont produce a better sound.
> 
> Second, the cable connection should come out of the shell at a 45° angle and have plenty of clearance. Most peoples outer ears are not flush against their heads and the surface of the CIEM will be at an angle with the front pointed into the head, if the cable connection is parallel with the surface of the CIEM, than the cable will dig into your temple and give you a headache like you wouldn't believe. This can also prevent the CIEM from sitting properly in the ear when the cable is plugged in resulting in a poor seal and an uncomfortable fit.


 
  
 If you had a chance to look at my designs, should I shift my mmcx connector outwards/rotate it outwards to avoid this? I have tried to follow the shure 846 as a design idea, but I'm not sure if my slightly smaller one will encounter the same problem till I test it next week.
  
 Also, is it right to say that increasing the acoustic volume inside the earphone by extending length of tube/increasing cross sectional area can help tune the earphone? I can increase the volume of the cavity that couples all the input nozzles to the output nozzles, would that help give a peak at the 1kHz to 4kHz range?
  
 However, would a high pass on the CI make any sense? I'm getting a pretty strong hump around the 250Hz to 500Hz range, which tends to make instruments sound just that little bit too loud. The obvious answer would be to just damp down the low end, but then I lose my subbass response. I have tested a highpass on DTEC / low pass on CI before but not reversed it yet (running CI on resistor only so far)
  
 Alternatively, boosting up the 1k-4kHz range for clearer vocals acoustically would be good if I had any idea how to do it.
  
 Currently, the CI on resistor, DTEC on lowpass setup without WBFK sounds pretty good, but lacking for vocals. I have EQed a 1-4dB boost around from 1kHz onwards to 16kHz (parametric equaliser on sansa clip zip/media monkey electri-q plugin) and it pretty much what I want from the earphones! I expect the addition of the WBFK on monday with a small cap for highpass ought to help reduce the need for EQ to some extent by putting in my high frequencies!
  
 In hindsight, my ideal sound signature might not necessarily be a truly flat response, but more towards a sub-bass boosted/ gentle V response because I love having a bit of sub 100Hz rumble and detailed, forward vocals.Currently, hearing all the instruments so clearly is kinda detracting from vocals IMO but YMMV.


----------



## CMOS1138

vector1 said:


> If you had a chance to look at my designs, should I shift my mmcx connector outwards/rotate it outwards to avoid this? I have tried to follow the shure 846 as a design idea, but I'm not sure if my slightly smaller one will encounter the same problem till I test it next week.
> 
> ...
> 
> In hindsight, my ideal sound signature might not necessarily be a truly flat response, but more towards a sub-bass boosted/ gentle V response because I love having a bit of sub 100Hz rumble and detailed, forward vocals.Currently, hearing all the instruments so clearly is kinda detracting from vocals IMO but YMMV.


 
  
  
 The advantage of your design is that the connection point is shifted back away from the front of the ear (I am referring to the front as the part of the ear closest to your face,) that should give you enough room to move the cable around and not have it push into the side of your head but it will depend on the shape of your ear as well as the shape of your cable. 
  
  
 I can't offer much help in sound tuning as I am working by trial and error as well as the helpful suggestions of piotrus-g and others on this forum. I do agree that a flat sound is not very desirable, My GQ design sounds terribly boring and lifeless because the sound is so flat using white dampers, I am eagerly waiting for my damper order to arrive, right now even my SR driver design sounds much better (knowles SR6438NWS-000 driver with a short sound tube and green dampers, very nice sound considering the low price.)


----------



## vector1

cmos1138 said:


> The advantage of your design is that the connection point is shifted back away from the front of the ear (I am referring to the front as the part of the ear closest to your face,) that should give you enough room to move the cable around and not have it push into the side of your head but it will depend on the shape of your ear as well as the shape of your cable.
> 
> 
> I can't offer much help in sound tuning as I am working by trial and error as well as the helpful suggestions of piotrus-g and others on this forum. I do agree that a flat sound is not very desirable, My GQ design sounds terribly boring and lifeless because the sound is so flat using white dampers, I am eagerly waiting for my damper order to arrive, right now even my SR driver design sounds much better (knowles SR6438NWS-000 driver with a short sound tube and green dampers, very nice sound considering the low price.)


 
  
 Thanks, I think I understand what you mean, if you're designing fixed cables into CIEMs. I guess my style will allow for adjustment, considering that the wires I have now also have memory plastic around the ear to hold a rigid shape around the ear, so I don't expect any problems with that.
  
 For all that talk about flat response, I think it's more about what sounds good to us .


----------



## vector1

I've just soldered everything together with the WBFKs in place!
  
 I'm running a 15ohm/100uF lowpass filter on the DTECs, high pass of ~15ohm (still tweaking) and 100uF on the CIs, and WBFK on full range.
  
 It seems to work pretty well for me so far, but it could stand to use a slight boost to the 1kHz to 4kHz range, of about 1-3dB from my EQing to taste.
  
 The bass is pretty impressive if I say so myself, and the mids are current not too recessed/forward, but I prefer them brighter. Highs are all there and not too fatiguing with the WBFK giving the air/sparkle at 4kHz+ range.
  
 Once I settle on a suitable highpass for the CIs, I'll be soldering everything with 0.2mm wire and ordering the actual SMD caps/resistors!
  
 Does anyone have more suggestions on boosting the 1kHz - 4kHz range acoustically or without adding too many components?


----------



## piotrus-g

vector1 said:


> I've just soldered everything together with the WBFKs in place!
> 
> I'm running a 15ohm/100uF lowpass filter on the DTECs, high pass of ~15ohm (still tweaking) and 100uF on the CIs, and WBFK on full range.
> 
> ...


 
Yes, loose the high pass on ci and use resistor instead.
Else you may try adding resistor after your low pass or connect your wbfk by center tap of CI


----------



## vector1

piotrus-g said:


> Yes, loose the high pass on ci and use resistor instead.
> Else you may try adding resistor after your low pass or connect your wbfk by center tap of CI


 
  
 I tried that first. The resistor doesn't give anything to the sound, only taking away the high response as I tune it up.
  
 I could run CI/WBFK without the highpass on full range, but having the high pass helps me to tune the balance between the different drivers as I can balance left right channels using the resistors.
  
 TBH, very little difference between highpass and full range for CI. I just need to balance out the bass since the resistance changes when I remove the high pass circuit.
  
 Edit: I'm now testing CI/WBFK on full range, DTEC on lowpass (tuning for proper bass, maybe around 7.5-10ohms with 100uF cap.). This still sounds pretty good.
  
 Whatever I change, I'm only going to get very minor adjustments since I already know what sound I'm going for. So far, the mids are a just little too laid back for my taste, but forward enough in most songs.
  
 The problem is, how do I maintain the subbass, while boosting mids? I can tune bass down to emphasis mids more, but then I lose that kick from the bass. I think the bloat into the mids from the DTECs is the main problem here.


----------



## vector1

In hindsight, I already know the solution. I just put a 2nd order lowpass filter on the DTEC. That has nicely tamed the bass bloat at the lower mid range!
  
 Using 2x 100uF filters, 2x 5ohm resistors, gives me all the kick around 100Hz, without bleeding into the mid range.


----------



## vector1

So in conclusion, the problem is not a lack of mid, but the bloat from the DTEC on bass to mids that made it feel lacking. A 2nd order lowpass on the DTEC has helped to tame that very nicely, and even without any filtering on WBFK or CI, the sound is already all that I want from this!
  
 Tuning can be achieved by putting a 10ohm variable resistor on the first resistor position, and that controls the bass relative to the rest. I'm hovering around 7.5ohms for extra clarity in the mids while losing a little bass. The other is a fixed resistor 5ohm.
  
 For those electrically inclined, here are some simulations that confirm my tests.
  
 This is the electrical diagram used to simulate in orcad cadance (pspice)
  
 Green = 2nd order lowpass, 10 ohm first,followed by 5ohm
 Purple = 2nd order lowpass, 5ohm first followed by 10 ohm
 Red = 1st order 5ohm lowpass
 Violet = 2nd order, 5ohm x2.
  

  
  
  
 For the results
  
 Red, the first order is quite inadequate to deal with mid-range bass, with too slow roll off and causing lots of bloat.
  
 Violet, 2nd order with 2 5ohm resistors seems to have much better roll-off at the expense of some signal.
  
 Purple and green are 2nd order with the 10ohm resistor varying in position. While band-pass range remains the same, the roll-off is faster/ cut off frequency is lower if 10ohm is first rather than 5ohm.
  
 Edit: wrong snip


----------



## vector1

For some reason, putting a cap on the WBFK (1uF) makes the sound much "fuller". It seems to interact with the rest of the circuit strangely, but is minimised behind a capacitor.
  
 Current setup, 2nd order lowpass (5ohmx2, 100uFx2) on DTEC, CI full range, 1uF cap on WBFK. Each driver is in parallel w.r.t the +ve and -ve wires.


----------



## vector1

I'm a little afraid to keep adding components, but in order to control the bass from the CI, I've been testing a resistor + highpass filter on the CI. I'm running a 50uF cap on the WBFK as well to improve the 4kHz response.
  
 That helps cut the midrange all the way down, so the 1-4kHz region can come forward when I up the volume.
  
 By the time I'm done, I'm going to have to increase the size of my earphones just to fit in all the electronics :x
  
 Also, does anyone have any idea why my computer headphone jack produces very strong bass, and my sansa clip zip does not? As far as I can check, there are no enhancements/EQ going on in my laptop, but the bass response is nearly 5-10dB higher at the <250Hz range.
  
 Most of the other players I tested so far behave more like my sansa clip rather than my laptop, though next week a friend is going to test with a USB DAC for accuracy.


----------



## shakur1996

Just a guess - maybe your computer headphone out has larger impedance and maybe your crossover design results in bass shift if you have larger impedance.


----------



## Xymordos

So I finished my earphones - can't post a picture since I'm on vacation. So I used a WBFK with ~1.0mm-1.5mm diameter stainless steel tube, with ~1-2cm in length and 1uf cap; a ED29689 with 2uf cap, same stainless steel tubing but I think 2cm in length, both with white damper; and a HODVTEC-31618 as lows with red damper (all sellers I found ran out of anything higher in ohms...) and ~5cm length 0.5mm silicon tubing.
  
 Sound was very large, spacious, and clear, but the bass was quite lacking surprisingly. Bass was deep but was not impactful, and it was rather quiet. Wonder what went wrong. 
  
 What would connecting two drivers in parallel do to the sound compared to one driver? Say 1xWBFK vs 2xWBFK?


----------



## vector1

xymordos said:


> So I finished my earphones - can't post a picture since I'm on vacation. So I used a WBFK with ~1.0mm-1.5mm diameter stainless steel tube, with ~1-2cm in length and 1uf cap; a ED29689 with 2uf cap, same stainless steel tubing but I think 2cm in length, both with white damper; and a HODVTEC-31618 as lows with red damper (all sellers I found ran out of anything higher in ohms...) and ~5cm length 0.5mm silicon tubing.
> 
> Sound was very large, spacious, and clear, but the bass was quite lacking surprisingly. Bass was deep but was not impactful, and it was rather quiet. Wonder what went wrong.
> 
> What would connecting two drivers in parallel do to the sound compared to one driver? Say 1xWBFK vs 2xWBFK?


 
  
 In theory, it should double the volume, but judging that there are so many interactions between each of the drivers and crossover, anyone's guess is good as mine.
  
 I guess that it might give you more options in tuning, eg what TWFK does already, or simply increase output of that range by some fraction.


----------



## piotrus-g

xymordos said:


> So I finished my earphones - can't post a picture since I'm on vacation. So I used a WBFK with ~1.0mm-1.5mm diameter stainless steel tube, with ~1-2cm in length and 1uf cap; a ED29689 with 2uf cap, same stainless steel tubing but I think 2cm in length, both with white damper; and a HODVTEC-31618 as lows with red damper (all sellers I found ran out of anything higher in ohms...) and ~5cm length 0.5mm silicon tubing.
> 
> Sound was very large, spacious, and clear, but the bass was quite lacking surprisingly. Bass was deep but was not impactful, and it was rather quiet. Wonder what went wrong.
> 
> What would connecting two drivers in parallel do to the sound compared to one driver? Say 1xWBFK vs 2xWBFK?



To long tube on woofer. Try 3 cm max.
It also seems like you are listening to it at still open earphones. That's what happens when you have vented driver and open shell. It you close the shell pressure will increase.
Be sure that the phase is correct


----------



## MuZo2

Also should he use 1mm instead of 0.5mm?


----------



## tranhieu

Actually the smaller the better, since smaller tube would act as a better low pass filter. 
  
 My guess is due to having longer tube, there's a sharp bend somewhere along the tube that actually prevents sound from going through. Better shorten the tube.


----------



## Xymordos

piotrus-g said:


> To long tube on woofer. Try 3 cm max.
> It also seems like you are listening to it at still open earphones. That's what happens when you have vented driver and open shell. It you close the shell pressure will increase.
> Be sure that the phase is correct


 
  
 That's possible. The tips aren't really fitting on me since the nozzle of shell I have is too big. Will sand it down when I get back from vacation to see if it works. My feedback from other DIYers in China said that the HODTEC doesn't have very good bass?
  


tranhieu said:


> Actually the smaller the better, since smaller tube would act as a better low pass filter.
> 
> My guess is due to having longer tube, there's a sharp bend somewhere along the tube that actually prevents sound from going through. Better shorten the tube.


 
  
 That's also possible. But the tube I have doesn't 'sharp bend' that easily, I hope it isn't the case. Would it make a big difference between 3cm and 5cm? I was hoping for a strong low pass filter effect. Would changing it to a CI driver be better, or using a orange/yellow filter instead of a red one?
  
 I had a better listen of it with different tracks and some bass frequencies seems more pronounced than others, which was quite weird. Will get a proper measurement with my equipment when I'm home.
  
 I'm thinking of making an improved version with probably a CI driver and double WBFK/SWFK for better highs. My current ones seem to roll off slightly despite the straight stainless steel sound bores.


----------



## wjp007

I read some people have paired up a GQ driver with a CI for bass.  The GQ driver is a WBFK combined with an ED driver with built in crossover.  Seems like a good match.  I've also heard that the Apple Dual Driver In Ear Monitor uses a modified GQ driver.  These are going on ebay for about $40.  What's wrong with just taking the driver out of the ADDIEM and pairing up with a CI.  I was thinking of just using dampers instead of electrical cross over.  What do you guys think?


----------



## tranhieu

xymordos said:


> That's possible. The tips aren't really fitting on me since the nozzle of shell I have is too big. Will sand it down when I get back from vacation to see if it works. My feedback from other DIYers in China said that the HODTEC doesn't have very good bass?
> 
> 
> That's also possible. But the tube I have doesn't 'sharp bend' that easily, I hope it isn't the case. Would it make a big difference between 3cm and 5cm? I was hoping for a strong low pass filter effect. Would changing it to a CI driver be better, or using a orange/yellow filter instead of a red one?
> ...


 
 2cm difference is no problem for sub 1khz frequencies. 
  
 You should try pcv for the tweeter first to have a good reference as almost (if not all) CIEM manufacturers out there choose that material. My experience is that unless you CNC the tubes yourself, there's a high chance it can attenuate the top end.


----------



## Isariggs

hello friends! 
 I'm new in this forum and would like to collaborate.
 You already tried to use a 100nF with a resistor 47 oms?


----------



## Isariggs

I have a documentation Sonion / colsan says: 
 "It is recommended to use a tube with a 2mm diameter and the shorter the
 better. The  tube should have a length of no more than 20mm for low 
 frequencies (Woofer shown in yellow below) and 12 mm for high 
 frequencies (Tweeter shown in blue below), this means that in situations 
 where the space is limited the tweeter (blue) needs to be in front of the 
 woofer (yellow)."
 already tried this?


----------



## CMOS1138

wjp007 said:


> I read some people have paired up a GQ driver with a CI for bass.  The GQ driver is a WBFK combined with an ED driver with built in crossover.  Seems like a good match.  I've also heard that the Apple Dual Driver In Ear Monitor uses a modified GQ driver.  These are going on ebay for about $40.  What's wrong with just taking the driver out of the ADDIEM and pairing up with a CI.  I was thinking of just using dampers instead of electrical cross over.  What do you guys think?


 
 It could work, without dampers, the GQ driver is very bright sounding. You may end up with a sound similar to the GK driver that pairs CI and TWFK. I have been toying with a similar idea but I was thinking of using DTEC instead of CI.


----------



## Xymordos

The stainless steel tubes were bought off taobao with exact diameter! I am also able to get pvc/copper/teflon/silicon tubes at a wide range of diamaters and at low prices too! 

Would using a double driver be better for resolution? 

Pulling the bass tube out a bit brought out more bass. 5cm tube might have filtered the sound too much! Phase should be correct since I can see a clear center image.

EDIT: on second thought it might be the ED driver being too loud! Ill have to do proper measurements when I return from vacation to be sure


----------



## Mython

xymordos said:


> The stainless steel tubes were bought off taobao with exact diameter! I am also able to get pvc/copper/teflon/silicon tubes at a wide range of diamaters


 
  
  
 Teflon might sound nice. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 (nice compromise).
  
 I wonder if anyone's produced CIEMs commercially using teflon tubing..


----------



## vector1

I've used an adaptation of the *James-Baxandall ​*tone control network, which has a bass/treble control. Interestingly, I've managed to somehow cut-down the number of components used by experimenting in pSpice. The left and right set of two resistors are actually variable resistors of 10ohm. The output is after the 22ohm resistor, or between the right two resistors.
  

  
 The* green line* is something close to what I'm using to filter the input signal, but note that the output still goes through filters before reaching the drivers. The red line is just another example of possible tuning, but the treble is out of control there. Top circuit is green, bottom is red.
  
 I was testing the earphones against shure 846s and JH customs (JH5 and JH11) at Jaben. With this control, I can adjust the response and get something fairly close to a Shure 846 signature, but at the expense of volume. On my sansa clip, I can drive the shures at -40dB, while my earphones need around -10dB to get the same volume.
  
 The trick now is to shrink this plus the filters into a circuit small enough to fit into my earphones. At the current count, I have 14 different resistors/capacitors per ear.
  
 Incidentally, the Shure doesn't have very nice highs, but really impactful bass. The JHs doesn't have the same kick to the subbass, but more forward mids.


----------



## tranhieu

Funny enough I gave up on Pspice after using it for awhile. I couldn't get the sound right by using its simulation but maybe that's just me.
  
 Btw 14 components per side are a bit too many. The TG334 for example only has 1 cap.


----------



## vector1

tranhieu said:


> Funny enough I gave up on Pspice after using it for awhile. I couldn't get the sound right by using its simulation but maybe that's just me.
> 
> Btw 14 components per side are a bit too many. The TG334 for example only has 1 cap.


 
  
 The simulation gives me a baseline to tune from, and I tweaked the bass/treble controls while comparing to actual IEMS (shure 846) directly at the shop, to get the same sound (roughly).
  
 The drivers interact in unexpected ways with the circuits. For example, running a large resistor in front a a driver in the 3 way parallel crossover means almost no current goes into that driver. That means a theoretically workable filter using 1uF and 1kohm won't work at all. It needs to be something like 100uF and 10ohm for example. All of my filters are running at ~5ohm, and I tune via capacitor now. It's something that I only found out after a few days of trial and error. I noticed it when using 100ohm variable resistors, but never actually thought about why it was happening since the sound still comes from the other drivers.
  
 I'm going to check out some prototyping facilities locally. If they can handle 0201 SMD (0.6 mm × 0.3 mm) components, then it's quite possible to get all the components on a 3x3mm board, or smaller even. If I have to do it with 1206 (3.2 mm × 1.6 mm) SMD components manually, it's still possible, but I'll need to expand the case slightly. I'm currently nearly 5mm thinner than the shure 846s, so I have some room to grow my earphones. Length and height are similar.


----------



## MuZo2

May be you can put them in cable like Shure E5c


----------



## tomtomtom

does anyone have a recommendation regarding mounting of tubes to BAs?


----------



## vector1

muzo2 said:


> May be you can put them in cable like Shure E5c


 


 I shall see about that, but since my cables are already custom made, I have to order a new set if I go down that route. I might as well implement the entire passive EQ/tone control if I actually do that...
  
 Also an interesting point to note, when everyone order parts, try to order extra and as low tolerance as possible (1% etc) and test them to make sure they actually are as close to spec as possible.
  
 I can easily detect a 0.5ohm out of 10 ohm difference in my tone control circuit as a 3% channel imbalance towards my right ear. After some tweaking to reduce it to approximately 0.1-0.2 ohm difference, I can't detect it anymore. As such, anything more than 1-2% might show up pretty easily.


----------



## CMOS1138

tomtomtom said:


> does anyone have a recommendation regarding mounting of tubes to BAs?


 
 I have had good luck both using UV acrylic gel, and also with using superglue. Superglue is dangerous though because you can easily ruin the BA driver if you use to much or get it in the wrong place. UV gel works great but you have you hold it together under the UV light, thus exposing your hands to UV which is not exactly good for you. Skip hot-glue entirely, it doesn't stick strongly enough to the smooth metal surfaced of the BA to be useful.


----------



## Xymordos

The UV thing worked nicely. Super glue is either too runny or takes too long to stick if it isn't runny.


----------



## wjp007

I've been wanting to try and make a custom Bluetooth IEM. I had some time this weekend and here are the results. I took apart a Bluetooth stereo iem style headset I got from eBay. I had to make the shells bigger to fit the electronics. One side holds the battery and the other the electronics. I'm actually surprised at how good they sound.


----------



## CMOS1138

wjp007 said:


> I've been wanting to try and make a custom Bluetooth IEM. I had some time this weekend and here are the results. I took apart a Bluetooth stereo iem style headset I got from eBay. I had to make the shells bigger to fit the electronics. One side holds the battery and the other the electronics. I'm actually surprised at how good they sound.


 
 great idea, did you re-use the drivers that came with the original IEM or did you implement your own design? I have been thinking this sort of thing should be possible but I hadn't thought of cannibalizing an existing Bluetooth device.


----------



## tomtomtom

cmos1138 said:


> I have had good luck both using UV acrylic gel, and also with using superglue. Superglue is dangerous though because you can easily ruin the BA driver if you use to much or get it in the wrong place. UV gel works great but you have you hold it together under the UV light, thus exposing your hands to UV which is not exactly good for you. Skip hot-glue entirely, it doesn't stick strongly enough to the smooth metal surfaced of the BA to be useful.


 
  
 Thanks! I ordered some UV curing adhesive and will see if it works well!


----------



## wjp007

No, I used a GQ Knowles driver. The original dynamic driver was awful. Sensitivity was too low and the driver had a port in the front which resulted in ambient noise leaking in. Also I needed the space inside the shells for the electronics. 





cmos1138 said:


> great idea, did you re-use the drivers that came with the original IEM or did you implement your own design? I have been thinking this sort of thing should be possible but I hadn't thought of cannibalizing an existing Bluetooth device.


----------



## CMOS1138

tomtomtom said:


> Thanks! I ordered some UV curing adhesive and will see if it works well!


 
  
 I used the same UV gel for attaching the tubing that I used to make the shells


----------



## CMOS1138

wjp007 said:


> No, I used a GQ Knowles driver. The original dynamic driver was awful. Sensitivity was too low and the driver had a port in the front which resulted in ambient noise leaking in. Also I needed the space inside the shells for the electronics.


 
  
 I have a set that I made with the GQ driver as well, with no tuning it was extremely bright and harsh, with white dampers it was no longer harsh but it became flat and boring and I was almost ready to give up on it but I was finally able to get my hands on some more green dampers (they had been on back order at mouser) and now they sound amazingly sweet and balanced. The base does not have that strong resonance that I get from my GK set but the mids are noticeably better, I guess the BK driver part is just a much better mid driver than the FK driver part that handles mids in the GK. 
  
 How did you tune yours?


----------



## wjp007

I used the white dampers. I thought the GQ was a WBFK paired with an ED. I do agree the bass is lacking. I'm thinking of adding a CI for my next design as a three way.


----------



## CMOS1138

wjp007 said:


> I used the white dampers. I thought the GQ was a WBFK paired with an ED. I do agree the bass is lacking. I'm thinking of adding a CI for my next design as a three way.


 
 you are correct, I meant ED but for some reason typed bk.


----------



## tomtomtom

Thanks I'll try to order some of it as well. 
 Does anyone have a supplier for litz wires or knows which AWG and number of strands works best?


----------



## tranhieu

tomtomtom said:


> Thanks I'll try to order some of it as well.
> Does anyone have a supplier for litz wires or knows which AWG and number of strands works best?


 
 34AWG is about the same size as the litz, but you won't get that same softness. They are a lot cheaper than litz anyways.


----------



## Xymordos

So my frequency test showed that the left earpiece had a massive spike on 2k, while the right earpiece didn't....So I stuffed some cotton into the ED29689 tube to solve that, but that also dropped 5k peak by quite a bit. Though it sounds more coherent now, and the bass doesn't sound too lacking now


----------



## CMOS1138

xymordos said:


> So my frequency test showed that the left earpiece had a massive spike on 2k, while the right earpiece didn't....So I stuffed some cotton into the ED29689 tube to solve that, but that also dropped 5k peak by quite a bit. Though it sounds more coherent now, and the bass doesn't sound too lacking now


 
 try experimenting with dampers to get a balanced sound, or you could always use the same cotton trick on the right side. I red somewhere that the highest quality damping material is wool but the results are not predictable.


----------



## piotrus-g

xymordos said:


> So my frequency test showed that the left earpiece had a massive spike on 2k, while the right earpiece didn't....So I stuffed some cotton into the ED29689 tube to solve that, but that also dropped 5k peak by quite a bit. Though it sounds more coherent now, and the bass doesn't sound too lacking now


 you got something wrong with either drivers or polarisation...
Sweeping problem under the table won't solve the problem, you known.


----------



## Xymordos

The driver matching is problematic. I was making another one and decided to test the drivers and realized they're actually all a few db off
  
 I'll break the shell of this one and do it again another time. They're in a custom shell so I can't open them up unless I smash them.


----------



## Mython

> Originally Posted by *Xymordos* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> 
> I'll break the shell of this one and do it again another time. They're in a custom shell so I can't open them up unless I smash them.


 
  
  
 Would it be impossible to slice the shell neatly in half?
  
 http://www.dremeleurope.com/gb/en/ocs/product/6046/352/dremel%C2%AE-ez-speedcliclastic-cutting-wheels-5-pack/dremel%C2%AE-ez-speedcliclastic-cutting-wheels-5-pack.


----------



## Xymordos

I smashed it and am building it again at the moment! Hope everything goes well this time  Driver matching is a pain though. Very hard to test the response of drivers on a 711


----------



## Mython

xymordos said:


> I smashed it and am building it again at the moment!


 
  
  
 Looks like you may be a 'glutton for punishment'! (or, more likely, a massochist...) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
  
 Either way, I hope the new build goes well this time. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 I must say, I'm surprised you are experiencing so large a db variation between identical-spec drivers.
  
  
 .


----------



## Xymordos

This time I made sure the tubes were sealed properly. But a few mm length difference in tubing shouldn't make a big difference in sound right? Also the raw drivers (I tested 2 pairs of drivers) have a few db of mismatch by themselves anyways...which is problematic, since the difference in sound adds up.


----------



## Xymordos

So tested the new DIY HODVTEC-31618+ED29689+WBFK30019. The graph is like this, and I have no idea what went wrong? Anyone can help to troubleshoot?
  


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



Frequency response 


  
 Edit: The problem is the 1k dip. The graph actually looks nicer on the left ear in the bass region when I did it again afterwards with a better tip. No idea what happened to the right ear's 1khz


----------



## piotrus-g

xymordos said:


> So tested the new DIY HODVTEC-31618+ED29689+WBFK30019. The graph is like this, and I have no idea what went wrong? Anyone can help to troubleshoot?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 DTEC is in the wrong polarisation or is connected in series instead of parallel.
If the measurement is made with IEC711 then I'd suggest using bigger cap for ed - 3,3uF or even bigger but no more than 10uF.
Also you can add a bit of resistance to DTEC - ~10 ohm to slightly balance the output


----------



## Xymordos

Thank you so much! I'll go check the connection again. This is made with a DIY version of 711, but it is very accurate for what it is. This graph however isn't that accurate since none of the tips I have actually fit the shell - the sound tube is really really big. 
  
  
 Edit: I checked again, both sides should be wired the same! Assuming the side with the engraving of "31618" is facing up, the right side is positive and left is negative?


----------



## piotrus-g

xymordos said:


> Thank you so much! I'll go check the connection again. This is made with a DIY version of 711, but it is very accurate for what it is. This graph however isn't that accurate since none of the tips I have actually fit the shell - the sound tube is really really big.
> 
> 
> Edit: I checked again, both sides should be wired the same! Assuming the side with the engraving of "31618" is facing up, the right side is positive and left is negative?


 

 OK, thanks for the update.
 Is it possible that you've soldered one of the wire to the housing of the driver? some overlaying solder or litz touching the case? The problem here could be related to such issue on ED driver.


----------



## Xymordos

piotrus-g said:


> OK, thanks for the update.
> Is it possible that you've soldered one of the wire to the housing of the driver? some overlaying solder or litz touching the case? The problem here could be related to such issue on ED driver.


 
 It doesn't appear so. But is the problem definitely due to the ED/DTEC drivers? Could a loose seal in one of the tubes cause this too?
  
 The phase of the ED driver should be correct, since when you listen to it the center image is perfectly fine. In fact, listening to it you can't actually tell anything is wrong! I'm suspecting it is the DTEC driver...unless reversing the polarity doesn't actually affect the center image?


----------



## tranhieu

Try reversing the polarity of drivers on the side that's having problem one by one with the earpiece attached to the coupler thoughout the process and see how its response changes. 
  
 If it doesn't work, check if tube length is the same on both sides. It's just phase cancelling, nothing major.


----------



## Xymordos

Thanks! Reversing the polarity on the DTEC resolved the issue...weird. It was wired correctly before!


----------



## CMOS1138

I switched from green dampers to brown on my GQ build, I like the sound much better this way. There is still plenty of base but now the overall tone is brighter. Next up, GQ + DTEC.


----------



## tomtomtom

tranhieu said:


> Try reversing the polarity of drivers on the side that's having problem one by one with the earpiece attached to the coupler thoughout the process and see how its response changes.
> 
> If it doesn't work, check if tube length is the same on both sides. It's just phase cancelling, nothing major.


 
 How were you able to tell that it is phase cancelling? Just trying to understand in case I run into the same issue.


----------



## tranhieu

tomtomtom said:


> How were you able to tell that it is phase cancelling? Just trying to understand in case I run into the same issue.


 
 The sharp dip @ 1khz. If they were all in phase acoustically there would have been no such dips at all.


----------



## piotrus-g

xymordos said:


> Thanks! Reversing the polarity on the DTEC resolved the issue...weird. It was wired correctly before!


 

 Great now you have to rework your crossover to fix the deep at ~3kHz - move ED crossing point to the lower frequencies or use it as full range.


----------



## Xymordos

I'll have to do that for the next one I make (should be before the end of the week). I had to fix this one too many times so the drivers and components were really weak already :\ Good practice though! 
  
 Custom shells are really hard to use, since tube length takes forever to measure and adjust on each ear piece. Usually one ear piece comes out perfectly and the other one screws up...


----------



## piotrus-g

xymordos said:


> Custom shells are really hard to use, since tube length takes forever to measure and adjust on each ear piece. Usually one ear piece comes out perfectly and the other one screws up...


 
 That's why customs are this expensive - it takes time to make.


----------



## Xymordos

Yup, once you try making one you realize how long and how much effort it takes to make one. Especially the testing part.


----------



## tranhieu

Time consuming as it is, you will get use to it later on. The process is very straight forward anyway. At the end of the day tuning is always the toughest part.


----------



## wjp007

Anyone try making a deep insertion custom shell, some of the companies call them Musician fit?  I'm looking for ways to improve isolation.  I've also seen silicone filled IEMs, anyone try that?


----------



## Mython

wjp007 said:


> Anyone try making a deep insertion custom shell, some of the companies call them Musician fit?  I'm looking for ways to improve isolation.  I've also seen silicone filled IEMs, anyone try that?


 
  
  
 Some (fitear being one, I believe) even fill the CIEM shell with solid acrylic.
  
 But that's not for the feint-hearted, since there's not much chance of extracting the components without damaging them, if you decide to destroy the CIEM shell.
  
 And, of course, it's pretty-much a no-go if your BA's are of the vented type.


----------



## Xymordos

Last time with one case of phase cancelling you can fix it by reversing a driver. This time when I'm testing something new I got two phase cancelling at 4/5k and 10k. I tried reversing all drivers and the cancelling is still there. Could it be phase incoherent between all drivers?!


----------



## MuZo2

Can you post new measurement.


----------



## Xymordos

Can't really post one right now since the testing equipment is on the other computer. But this is with a new 5 driver one I'm testing. CI+ED23147+29689 x2 +30019. Just stuffed my leftover drivers into a shell and made some crossovers for them to see how it goes. But the phase cancelling issue isn't solving itself which is weird. Everything is wired correctly to me. 
  
 22955 & 23147 - full range
 29689 - 2.2uf 1st order
 29689 - 1uf 2nd order
 30019 - 1uf 1st order
  
 The design isn't meant to be good, but I didn't expect serious phase issues with it though!
  
 Edit: Think I got the polarity of one of the tantalums wrong...oops


----------



## piotrus-g

xymordos said:


> Can't really post one right now since the testing equipment is on the other computer. But this is with a new 5 driver one I'm testing. CI+ED23147+29689 x2 +30019. Just stuffed my leftover drivers into a shell and made some crossovers for them to see how it goes. But the phase cancelling issue isn't solving itself which is weird. Everything is wired correctly to me.
> 
> 22955 & 23147 - full range
> 29689 - 2.2uf 1st order
> ...


 

 ufff... so many drivers and a second order... that's a tough one...
 Try measuring each driver separately and then two together and three and the rest - you'll be able to control phase and frequency. It will take a lot more time but it's nice when you get something right at first try rather than making shells from scratch just because you've made one mistake.


----------



## tranhieu

xymordos said:


> Edit: Think I got the polarity of one of the tantalums wrong...oops


 
 Er... does it even matter? As far as I know reversing polarity of caps on signal path only affects noise ratio, which is unlikely to be audible. It's AC you are working with after all. Never heard of phase shifting though.


----------



## Xymordos

Does the polarity of the tantalums not matter? o.o It said online that if you flipped the polarity it'll destroy the film layer or something...
  
 I managed to fix the problem by taking one of the drivers out before, but I couldn't replicate that afterwards -.-


----------



## tranhieu

xymordos said:


> Does the polarity of the tantalums not matter? o.o It said online that if you flipped the polarity it'll destroy the film layer or something...
> 
> I managed to fix the problem by taking one of the drivers out before, but I couldn't replicate that afterwards -.-


 
 What kind of tantalum are you using? I doubt a few volts can spoil the cap. 
  
 googling around and I came across this: jimmyauw.com/2010/04/24/observing-inner-and-outer-foil-of-some-popular-capacitors/


----------



## Xymordos

I see, that's good then. I'm using the regular yellow rectangles  But I guess if they did spoil there won't even be sound...
  
 Still testing the drivers one by one, probably will take the whole day 
  
 Edit: So it wasn't phase cancelling, but simply the frequencies not covered by the drivers very well...How much does a filter shift a peak?
  
 Edit2: It seems like the ED23147 and the CI22955 are cancelling each other on the bass...both have no crossovers and are wired normally!
  
 Theoretically if they're all wired correctly, should there be severe phase cancelling?


----------



## piotrus-g

xymordos said:


> Edit2: It seems like the ED23147 and the CI22955 are cancelling each other on the bass...both have no crossovers and are wired normally!
> 
> Theoretically if they're all wired correctly, should there be severe phase cancelling?


 
 No, they should amplify their sound - increase quantity.
 You've got CI polarity wrong probably - check again with datasheet.


----------



## tranhieu

xymordos said:


> I see, that's good then. I'm using the regular yellow rectangles  But I guess if they did spoil there won't even be sound...
> 
> Still testing the drivers one by one, probably will take the whole day
> 
> ...


 
 yeah check the datasheet again. It's literally your CIEM Bible.


----------



## Xymordos

Hah, nevermind, it wasn't sealed properly. Though for some reason the 5k dip is present for all my ED drivers even when tested alone? I'm guessing the dip is due to driver incoherency rather than a phase cancellation


----------



## tranhieu

Mind posting your graph?


----------



## Xymordos

Will post when I can seal the mouth without breaking any wires


----------



## Xymordos

So before I could even test my second one, my first one suddenly did this...Did the ED driver die or did the WBFK phase get messed up?


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


----------



## piotrus-g

xymordos said:


> So before I could even test my second one, my first one suddenly did this...Did the ED driver die or did the WBFK phase get messed up?
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


 
 Well... The top graph is quite good you know. I assume everything after 8-9kHz is not really relevant
 In bottom graph the ED is silent.


----------



## Negataros

Hey guys, im quite new to this but im just wondering if we can use those UV lights to cure nails to cure the UV acrylic ?


----------



## Mython

negataros said:


> Hey guys, im quite new to this but im just wondering if we can use those UV lights to cure nails to cure the UV acrylic ?


 
  
  
http://www.head-fi.org/t/430688/home-made-iems/1695#post_10567368


----------



## Xymordos

Yup, the bottom graph suddenly did that when I was testing it - the first test was okay, when I pressed record again, the graph went like that. Even though the ED is still producing sound the graph looks like this...I guess it is safe to assume the driver died.


----------



## Negataros

apart from the knowles and sonion drivers, would you guys recommend any dynamic drivers which are pretty decent?


----------



## Xymordos

So I changed the crossover a bit to make it simpler but it still looks like this: 
  
 CI22955 - Full Range
 ED23147 - Full Range
 ED26989 - 1st order 2.2uf
 ED26989 - 1st order 1uf
 WBFK30019 - 1st order 1uf


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!






  
  
 I have a feeling teflon tubing isn't a good idea.


----------



## vector1

xymordos said:


> So I changed the crossover a bit to make it simpler but it still looks like this:
> 
> CI22955 - Full Range
> ED23147 - Full Range
> ...


 
  
 You're testing all 5 at once?
  
 Edit: I realise that you are really testing 5 drivers at once after reading the back posts... I think you're going to have many problems with driver-driver interaction within the circuit. Remember each driver is a capacitor, resistor and inductor rolled into one and that'll impact the performance of any passive circuit you use. Some expensive CIEMs use active op-amps to buffer the signal between filtering stages to prevent any interactions and give something approximating the calculated response. It's also a common tactic to use multiple amps (bi-amp or tri-amp) to drive hi-fi/theatre theatre setups.
  
 I have this feeling with so many mid strong drivers (EDs) and only one weak supertweeter (WBFK), you'll see this kind of high frequency rolled off response since the FR of WBFK is much lower than CI and EDs. 
  
 I personally have quite a few problems just trying to balance the 4 driver setup of CI, DTEC and WBFK I'm using now, but I've come up with some decent sounding earphones after some A-B testing even without actually testing the frequency response.
  
 How about you post your entire circuit if you can sketch it out, so we can actually see, and maybe I can run a simulation for you.


----------



## vector1

negataros said:


> apart from the knowles and sonion drivers, would you guys recommend any dynamic drivers which are pretty decent?


 
 If I find any other major manufacturers, whose products are widely used and available in small batches for experimentation, I'll let you know .
  
 Knowles BAs seems to be the most used simply because they're relatively easy to get. Sonion come in larger trays, which are prohibitively expensive if you only want to make a pair of earphones.


----------



## tranhieu

xymordos said:


> So I changed the crossover a bit to make it simpler but it still looks like this:
> 
> CI22955 - Full Range
> ED23147 - Full Range
> ...


 
 I'm actually quite surprised you get pretty good treble extension there lol looks like the tweeters are doing well.


----------



## Xymordos

Forgot to mention that the bass part is missing because I didn't seal the mouth yet! It's just that dip at around 6k. Individually tested everything seems fine, but together it makes a dip at 6k. However, each driver is correctly wired (I believe). I understand that sealing the mouth will change the signature, but I know it won't cause that massive dip to disappear...
  
 The crossover circuit is very simple: 
 ED26989 - 1st order 2.2uf
 ED26989 - 1st order 1uf
 WBFK30019 - 1st order 1uf
  
 3 Caps. That's it. Taming mids can be done by decreasing capacitance on the ED drivers? 
  
 Edit: Would having each tweeter in 2nd order be better for phase?


----------



## tomtomtom

tranhieu said:


> What kind of tantalum are you using? I doubt a few volts can spoil the cap.
> 
> googling around and I came across this: jimmyauw.com/2010/04/24/observing-inner-and-outer-foil-of-some-popular-capacitors/


 
 It depends on the rated voltage of the cap, whether the cap gets damaged or not.Tantalum caps are polarized so they need to be operated with correct polarization. Using wrong polarization probably results in little to none effective capacitance.


----------



## Xymordos

So that might be why my drivers seems busted eh


----------



## tranhieu

^ I've seen most drivers getting busted for 2 reasons: you sit on them, or you short them. 
  
 Quote:


tomtomtom said:


> It depends on the rated voltage of the cap, whether the cap gets damaged or not.Tantalum caps are polarized so they need to be operated with correct polarization. Using wrong polarization probably results in little to none effective capacitance.


 
 Sorry I don't get it. Why you have to mind cap's polarity when audio signal is AC to begin with (polarized caps are not to be used in AC circuits AFAIK)?
  
 Yeah voltage rating is something to care about. I always grab ones with >10v rating to be sure.


----------



## vector1

Are you working from a breadboard or have you soldered the crossovers together? I'm working on a breadboard now to tune my circuits while running the individual wires into a earpiece case. If you do it like me, you should have an easier time trying to modify polarities and such.
  
 I don't really understand why you have a problem with the bass? If you've sealed the tubing to the nozzle of the driver there shouldn't be any leakage, like my boot below? What is the mouth you're referring to?
  
 The sound on my earphones are pretty decent now, so with minor tuning I'll be hopefully ready soon to make the final design.
  
 The shells in testing. I've switched the layout to a WBFK, CI, DTEC layout from top to bottom.
  
 The wires are there to hold the shells together, and for stress relief on the cables on the drivers.

  

  
 Complicated circuit based on what I posted earlier

  
  
 The boot of the earpiece that seals the drivers to the nozzle.

  
 The shell in solidworks.


----------



## Xymordos

Heh, I clamped my driver too hard when I was trying to solder one and there's a dent on the shell >< I realized taking too long to solder them doesn't actually destroy them that easily!
  
 I leave the caps hanging by wire and cover them in UV resin to prevent shorts. The shells I use are the...universal 'custom' shells. Like the Tralucent 1+2 ones, so to seal them means that I won't be able to take the drivers out to re-solder or anything like that. 
  
 Also, I realized the 6k and 10k dips can be fixed by adjusting my tweeters positions in the shell. My shell is massive so there is a lot of space to move them around.


----------



## vector1

xymordos said:


> Heh, I clamped my driver too hard when I was trying to solder one and there's a dent on the shell >< I realized taking too long to solder them doesn't actually destroy them that easily!
> 
> I leave the caps hanging by wire and cover them in UV resin to prevent shorts. The shells I use are the...universal 'custom' shells. Like the Tralucent 1+2 ones, so to seal them means that I won't be able to take the drivers out to re-solder or anything like that.
> 
> Also, I realized the 6k and 10k dips can be fixed by adjusting my tweeters positions in the shell. My shell is massive so there is a lot of space to move them around.


 
  It's not that the case needs to be sealed. Only the tube needs to be sealed to the nozzle of the driver and nozzle leading to the tip to ensure there's no leakage... If the sound is leaking into the body of the shell then regardless of how you seal it, there's still going to be a loss in the bass?
  
 My shells are not sealed at all, but the drivers are quite deep within the boot, which seals the channels carrying sound.
  
 Be careful working with the wbfks, as excessive heat can cause the solder pads to lift of and break the wires underneath leading into the driver... Clamping helps to act like a heatsink of sorts, so the driver doesn't over heat, sticking some shrinkwrap tubing to it also functions the same way.


----------



## tranhieu

Don't use clamp... use blutak instead...
  
 I also used breadboard in the past, but as I got rid of most passive components overtime the filters now are soldered directly to the wire instead. It's more secured that way and it takes only few seconds to switch the values.


----------



## vector1

tranhieu said:


> Don't use clamp... use blutak instead...
> 
> I also used breadboard in the past, but as I got rid of most passive components overtime the filters now are soldered directly to the wire instead. It's more secured that way and it takes only few seconds to switch the values.


 
 Blutack is good too! I can't really work with acoustic tuning without measuring the FR which is why I'm mainly using electronic filters which are easier for me to simulate and tune.


----------



## Xymordos

I tried blutak but it just wouldn't stick strongly enough. The tiny wires I have are quite stiff and can be quite a hassel to get them to solder properly. I usually have to end up covering all the joints with resin to prevent them from coming loose. The tubing affects the peaks of the driver quite greatly I found. Also a small difference in distance from driver to ear can cause massive phase changes  Thid is quite difficult to work with.

(My ED driver has nothing under 5k so I am sure that is faulty)


----------



## Mython

xymordos said:


> I tried blutak but it just wouldn't stick strongly enough.


 
  
  
 Maybe you're just not using a big enough chunk of Blu Tack 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
  

  
 (stupid timing doesn't work properly for the link, so you'll need to skip forwards to 6:40 position in the video)
  
 Fortunately, you won't have an air-head reporter sticking a microphone in your face so you can't see the components you're trying to assemble! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
  
 more vids here:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/578855/things-to-consider-before-getting-your-custom-iem-impressions-done-the-perfect-fit#post_7871678
  
 .


----------



## Xymordos

LOL omg that is a massive piece of blutack. Most annoying thing right now is to solder all the wires onto the socket. One wire solders, the other one comes off...Need to get better wires that can actually twist together.


----------



## Xymordos

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!




  


  
 I flipped the phase of the ED driver didn't I...


----------



## piotrus-g

xymordos said:


> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 So it appears 
  
 BTW. you may want to put some damper on you EDs otherwise you'll end up with quite bothering highs.


----------



## Xymordos

Damn it, thanks  I have white dampers on them! I think the tubing might have been a liiiiittle too short...With the phase flipped I can't actually hear a problem LOL Maybe slightly incoherent between left and right ear...
  
 For the CI driver, my seller insists that with the engraving facing up, the left is negative and right is positive. But from what I read from the datasheet, that should be true with the engraving facing down? Which one is correct?


----------



## piotrus-g

xymordos said:


> Damn it, thanks  I have white dampers on them! I think the tubing might have been a liiiiittle too short...With the phase flipped I can't actually hear a problem LOL Maybe slightly incoherent between left and right ear...
> 
> For the CI driver, my seller insists that with the engraving facing up, the left is negative and right is positive. But from what I read from the datasheet, that should be true with the engraving facing down? Which one is correct?


 
 Data sheet.
  
 Code facing down right is possitive


----------



## tranhieu

Don't dwell too much on which pad is negative or positive. Check the pressure at the spout of the driver and try to arrange the drivers so that they are all in phase acoustically. The thing is Sonion & Knowles's naming scheme is different with regard to which pad is negative/positive which would make it very difficult to track cancellations when you do multi-fold designs.
  
 And yeah, always stick to datasheets.


----------



## vector1

My next earphone I will try to use HODVTEC and a CI for bass, but can I get suggestions on a good/small driver to pair with WBFK for mids?
  
 I want to move to a dual bass, 1 mid and 1 high line up, but all separate physical drivers rather than use DTEC for bass. Some possibilities for mid include DWFK and ED series, but I don't know if DWFK is worth the premium over other single drivers for mid.
  
 My plan is to use HODVTEC as the sub sub bass through a 2nd order filter, CI as the bass/low mid, another driver to be decided to handle the 1k-4k range, and WBFK again for the highs. Even dual CIs might work?
  
 The reason being my friend is a basshead, and I think using dual bass drivers will give me sufficient output.
  
 More suggestions?


----------



## Xymordos

HODVTEC has uber bass output, and its the nice and soft type too. DWFK is the updated TWFK that uses the new SWFK super tweeter with 10db higher output or something right?


----------



## MuZo2

Are new drivers available now ?


----------



## MuZo2

xymordos said:


> HODVTEC has uber bass output, and its the nice and soft type too. DWFK is the updated TWFK that uses the new SWFK super tweeter with 10db higher output or something right?


 
 SWFK Frequency Range200Hz ~ 6.5kHz


----------



## piotrus-g

vector1 said:


> My next earphone I will try to use HODVTEC and a CI for bass, but can I get suggestions on a good/small driver to pair with WBFK for mids?
> 
> I want to move to a dual bass, 1 mid and 1 high line up, but all separate physical drivers rather than use DTEC for bass. Some possibilities for mid include DWFK and ED series, but I don't know if DWFK is worth the premium over other single drivers for mid.
> 
> ...


 

 I'd suggest you go with TWFK if you want to stick with KA drivers. I don't think there's better small-factor driver for mids from KA range.


----------



## vector1

My main concern is in terms of cost. Does a TWFK outperform a ED series + WBFK in terms of mid-high reproduction? They are not that much different in volume combined, and ED+ WBFK is cheaper to work with.
  
 It feels like the TWFK is the simple option out for those who won't tune mids/highs independently, but cost more.
  
 Any comments on driving both HODVTEC and CI together for bass?
  
 Also MuZo, the HODVTEC are available from digikey now. SWFK still not around.


----------



## piotrus-g

vector1 said:


> My main concern is in terms of cost. Does a TWFK outperform a ED series + WBFK in terms of mid-high reproduction? They are not that much different in volume combined, and ED+ WBFK is cheaper to work with.
> 
> It feels like the TWFK is the simple option out for those who won't tune mids/highs independently, but cost more.
> 
> ...


 
 ED is much better for mids than TWFK. It's lusher and can sound more natural. I find TWFK mids always a bit too thin, but they are nice and airy on the other hand - so it's a bit of trade off.
 ED+WBFK may not work phase-wise I've seen some combination of those drivers and they always suffered from some kind of phase canceling so I would say it requires good crossover and combination with other drivers that would sum up to flat phase.
  
 As for HODVTEC+CI - for me it would be WAY too much. I like bass but that would be too much for my taste. It would require some clever crossover like wiring HODVTEC and CI in opposite phases to cancel the mid bass hump and leave with boosted bass from HODVTEC after 100Hz and considerably lower output level that would match ED and WBFK nicely.
 Such design can be found in some of the IEMs (some considered TOTL 2 years ago).


----------



## Xymordos

I see...so that is why my WBFK and ED combinations always show phase cancelling despite me wiring them correctly. On ARTA is there anyway to test for phase?


----------



## vector1

piotrus-g said:


> ED is much better for mids than TWFK. It's lusher and can sound more natural. I find TWFK mids always a bit too thin, but they are nice and airy on the other hand - so it's a bit of trade off.
> ED+WBFK may not work phase-wise I've seen some combination of those drivers and they always suffered from some kind of phase canceling so I would say it requires good crossover and combination with other drivers that would sum up to flat phase.
> 
> As for HODVTEC+CI - for me it would be WAY too much. I like bass but that would be too much for my taste. It would require some clever crossover like wiring HODVTEC and CI in opposite phases to cancel the mid bass hump and leave with boosted bass from HODVTEC after 100Hz and considerably lower output level that would match ED and WBFK nicely.
> Such design can be found in some of the IEMs (some considered TOTL 2 years ago).


 
  
 If you say it's possible then I'm definitely trying this out as I've already tested a pretty decent 2nd order filter on the CI that gives it only a very sub-bass kick, but then DTEC wasn't enough to drive mids. Someone suggested swapping them and I'm pretty happy with the combination, but IMO mids are just 1-2 dB too lacking at the moment with my current CI/DTEC/WBFK combo.
  
 I'll try out a HODVTEC/CI/ED/WBFK combo then, I should be able to deal with the crossovers.
  
 Also, any other drivers suitable for highs other than WBFK? I haven't seen anything other than the new SFWK that has that kind of high frequency extension.
  
 Could you give examples of which IEM I should look for, and also, post the link to this list of drivers in IEMs which I saw once but can't seem to track down after searching for awhile .


----------



## vector1

xymordos said:


> I see...so that is why my WBFK and ED combinations always show phase cancelling despite me wiring them correctly. On ARTA is there anyway to test for phase?


 
  
 AFAIK someone suggested just driving them with the polarity switched to see if the dip goes away for simpler crossovers. You have 5 drivers so it might take awhile to work through all the combinations .


----------



## Xymordos

Eh that shouldn't work o.O If there's a mismatch I'd imagine switching polarity to only work for multiple drivers. I usually remove a driver from testing to see if the problem still stays.


----------



## tranhieu

Well there're only x*2/2 ways to arrange the polarity, where x is the number of drivers you have, which is 5 in your case. Gonna take sometime to measure them all.


----------



## Xymordos

I feel like there are three drivers that just phase cancels another one out no matter what phase they're on xD


----------



## Mython

Nah, your phase anomalies are just because you accidentally left a chunk of Blu Tack on your measuring mic!


----------



## Xymordos

-.-
  
 But shifting the WBFK position really affects the frequency graph


----------



## Xymordos

The completed HODVTEC+ED+WBFK one!


----------



## MuZo2

Wow, how do they sound?
 Any measurements?


----------



## Xymordos

They're really clear  
  
 Though it's hard to get a good fit on these custom-universal shells. Will try to post a graph tomorrow, its 4am here! There's the phase cancellation problem with WBFK and ED drivers, and a dip at 1k due to the ED crossover being too high.


----------



## vector1

xymordos said:


> They're really clear
> 
> Though it's hard to get a good fit on these custom-universal shells. Will try to post a graph tomorrow, its 4am here! There's the phase cancellation problem with WBFK and ED drivers, and a dip at 1k due to the ED crossover being too high.


 
  
 I didn't realise you had the exact same setup as I planned.  Can I trouble you for the FR too? 
  
 Do you think it'll benefit from 1) extra ED for mid or 2) extra CI for bass or 3) extra WBFK for highs?
  
 I'm curious to see which area needs reinforcement more since I was thinking of an extra CI to make the bass really kicking.


----------



## Xymordos

Still out right now, but i feel another CI would be nice?

Calculating cutoff frequencies...WBFK with 1uf and resistance of 12.5ohms gives me 12kHz. 29689 with 2.2uf and resistance of 3.65ohms gives me...19kHz?!


----------



## MuZo2

xymordos said:


> The completed HODVTEC+ED+WBFK one!


 
 Is it HO-DTEC+WBFK+ED  single driver with crossover?


----------



## Xymordos

Eh no? 2.2uf on ED first order and 1uf on WBFK second order both with white damper. HODVTEC full range with red damper.


----------



## MuZo2




----------



## vector1

muzo2 said:


>


 
  
 Nice, you created the driver combo yourself? Looks like some DTECs/CI with a mid driver?


----------



## Xymordos

Nah not those  Got the drivers separately
  
 Edit: Can anyone verify my crossover frequency calculation? 29689 with high pass filter of 2.2uf and resistance of 3.65ohms (that's the right resistance right?) gives me 19kHz crossover frequency.


----------



## MuZo2

vector1 said:


> Nice, you created the driver combo yourself? Looks like some DTECs/CI with a mid driver?



No they seem to be from Knowles, see the crossover is on flexible PCB.


----------



## CMOS1138

looks sweet,
  
 Since you are using ED and WBFK together, why not use the GQ driver since it combines those two? I made a build last night using GQ + DTEC, it sounds nice, I am surprised at how spacious the sound-stage is in comparison to my other builds. I harvested these particular GQ drivers from a set of ADDIEMS so its sound is not as bright as the standard GQ, from the appearance of the nozzle and the sound, I think there is a damper built into the nozzle. I am trying to decide between a red damper and a green damper on the DTEC, green brings the DTEC up into the lower mid's and red seems to be keeping it down into a deeper base range. Both combinations are quite satisfying to listen to.
  
 Now if only I had testing equipment other than my ears


----------



## Xymordos

Honestly if it sounds good to my ears I'd take it xD My measurements often show discrepancies between left and right ear, but I can't really hear it...
  
 I didn't use it because I thought GQ had a crossover built in?


----------



## CMOS1138

xymordos said:


> Honestly if it sounds good to my ears I'd take it xD My measurements often show discrepancies between left and right ear, but I can't really hear it...
> 
> I didn't use it because I thought GQ had a crossover built in?


 
 yes there is a crossover circuit board on the back of the driver, I think it would be pretty simple to bypass or remove if you didn't like it but for me this is a bonus since I have not worked up the courage to start designing my own crossovers yet and the built in one is pretty good.


----------



## CMOS1138

another benefit to the crossover is that there is less concern with overheating the driver when you solder to it since it is on a separate board.


----------



## vector1

There are many versions of the ED, could anyone share which one they've used before?


----------



## MuZo2

I guess most are using 29689


----------



## piotrus-g

Quote:


xymordos said:


> Nah not those  Got the drivers separately
> 
> Edit: Can anyone verify my crossover frequency calculation? 29689 with high pass filter of 2.2uf and resistance of 3.65ohms (that's the right resistance right?) gives me 19kHz crossover frequency.


 
  
 Around 2,1-2,2kHz
  


muzo2 said:


>


 
 What is it?! Those drivers looks really strange


----------



## MuZo2

piotrus-g said:


> What is it?! Those drivers looks really strange


 
 HO-DTEC+WBFK+ED


----------



## piotrus-g

muzo2 said:


> HO-DTEC+WBFK+ED


 
 How come? where is spout/port of DTEC and why is WBFK sideways?


----------



## MuZo2

May be its single unit like GQ


----------



## tranhieu

Looks more like XBA units to me...


----------



## Xymordos

That's what the shop claims...but then from the photos you can't see the WBFK drivers at all! I think it is just a driver the shop itself glued together to sell.
  
  


piotrus-g said:


> Quote:
> 
> Around 2,1-2,2kHz


 
  
 How did you get that calculation?  I use the 1/2piRC formula with R=3.65 and C=2.2uf and that doesn't work


----------



## MuZo2

Doesn't look like Sony drivers.


----------



## piotrus-g

xymordos said:


> That's what the shop claims...but then from the photos you can't see the WBFK drivers at all! I think it is just a driver the shop itself glued together to sell.
> 
> 
> 
> How did you get that calculation?  I use the 1/2piRC formula with R=3.65 and C=2.2uf and that doesn't work


 
 Impedance of this driver at around 2,2kHz is ~32 Ohm - you do the math 
  
 You're using Rdc for your calculations.


----------



## wjp007

Had some time and started experimenting with different tube lengths and tube styles with a GQ driver.  My goal was to try and improve the high frequency extension.  The results are promising with my crude measurement setup. The green trace that was from a stepped design shows considerable extension above 10K.  I'm going to try cone shaped horn designs next.
  
 I tried the following:
 1) White - Stock GQ driver no tube
 2) Green - Stepped tube 1.3mm ID 7mm long followed by 2.4mm ID 12mm long
 3) Blue - Single tube 1.3mm ID 25mm long
 4) Purple - Stepped 1.3mm ID 12mm long followed by 2.4mm ID 12mm  long
 5) Yellow - Single tube 2.4mm ID 25mm long
 6) Red - Single tube 2.4mm ID 18mm long
  

  
 High Frequency Close Up


----------



## CMOS1138

I am curious how people are able to control the tube length so precisely in a custom shell? when I made my GQ + DTEC design I simply pulled the driver as far down the canal section as it would go and then cut the extra tubing sticking out of the end of the shell. I know that isn't very accurate but everyone's ears are shaped differently and will require different tubing lengths assuming you use as little as possible for the high driver.
  
 Speaking of that particular design, I am amazed at the rich sound I am getting out of it, it is so natural sounding with nothing artificial or distorted. Letting DETEC influence the mids a little bit by using a green filter is the right choice for my personal enjoyment.


----------



## Xymordos

piotrus-g said:


> Impedance of this driver at around 2,2kHz is ~32 Ohm - you do the math
> 
> You're using Rdc for your calculations.


 
 Ah, so that's what you use. Thanks!


----------



## vector1

Looking at all the positive reviews of earphones using the ED/WBFK combo or GQ, I'm starting to look forward to trying it out myself soon! Great frequency graphs and very nice comparison! I'll be sure to try to simulate some stacked tube using the 3D printed channel.
  
 Also, I'm wondering if it's worth while to try something like the shure 846 microchannels that make up their "lowpass" filter... I could print something like that out pretty easily, or a nice winding channel to increase length.


----------



## Xymordos

Using the WBFK is pure annoyance -.- Probably will never want to use it again...


----------



## vector1

xymordos said:


> Using the WBFK is pure annoyance -.- Probably will never want to use it again...


 
  
 First time I used it I destroyed the first two. That made me rethink my soldering technique and now the ones I have have survived testing for a couple of weeks already.
  
 It's not that much more difficult to use, just need a bit more care.


----------



## Xymordos

I never destroyed any, but getting rid of the dips caused by using that driver takes a lot of patience...I can't even tell if it brings out extra details in the high frequency either LOL


----------



## piotrus-g

Well I'm playing around with WBFK right now and it does no good with combination with Sonion 2389 which means it won't work with ED either (those drivers are practically the same). I'd say if you plan on using WBFK get different midrange. BK or EF maybe or 2600. I think working out proper crossover may not be worth the hassle for DIY unless you really have to use those drivers or you know.. have too much spare time 
  
 I mean I was able to get quite good response with 2389 - but with shifted all peaks missing points needed to compensate ear resonances.


----------



## vector1

What do you all think of the GQ graphs posted above then? They look pretty decent to me, especially if used with a relatively long/stepped tube. I'll experiment with printing a winding channel rather than a straight channel to increase the length in a small area.
  
 Is it okay to have that ~6db drop past 10kHz, or does it necessarily have to be straight? I don't know if that'll make the high end too hot. Perhaps doubling down on the WBFKs might work?


----------



## Xymordos

WBFK can be fitted properly I think by changing the distance the driver is from your ear  But matching this between left and right ear is difficult


----------



## vector1

xymordos said:


> WBFK can be fitted properly I think by changing the distance the driver is from your ear  But matching this between left and right ear is difficult


 
  
 Perhaps I never have this problem because my channels are 3D printed and should be accurate to less than 0.5mm depending on how deep I push the WBFKs into the slot.


----------



## Xymordos

But your design didn't use the ED29689. WBFK always create a dip in the frequency response when used together with that driver as Peter said.


----------



## piotrus-g

xymordos said:


> But your design didn't use the ED29689. WBFK always create a dip in the frequency response when used together with that driver as Peter said.


 
 No, not always, but if you want to preserve peaks for ear resonances you'll probably end up with deep around 6kHz. I'm afraid moving drivers away from each other won't fix it unless the distance is really big (by big I mean >2cm)
  
 if you measure with iec711 than valleys after 10kHz is quite typical for most drivers - but not every.


----------



## Xymordos

I usually get a dip at around 9/10kHz, but my WBFK have ~1cm of space to move around, which I have been testing which position works best.


----------



## piotrus-g

xymordos said:


> I usually get a dip at around 9/10kHz, but my WBFK have ~1cm of space to move around, which I have been testing which position works best.


 
 yeah, but it's a typical for WBFK, you know.


----------



## vector1

xymordos said:


> But your design didn't use the ED29689. WBFK always create a dip in the frequency response when used together with that driver as Peter said.


 
  
 I'll be sure to let you all know if I have the same problems, but what I meant was the fitting of the WBFK in relation to left and right channels. They will be fairly close/ exactly on because of the 3D printed channel.
  
  
 The GQ apparently uses an ED + WBFK if i'm not wrong, and the graphs above looks pretty decent, and I can only imagine how much better it will get with a CI/HODVTEC to lift the sub-bass and bass.


----------



## piotrus-g

vector1 said:


> I'll be sure to let you all know if I have the same problems, but what I meant was the fitting of the WBFK in relation to left and right channels. They will be fairly close/ exactly on because of the 3D printed channel.
> 
> 
> The GQ apparently uses an ED + WBFK if i'm not wrong, and the graphs above looks pretty decent, and I can only imagine how much better it will get with a CI/HODVTEC to lift the sub-bass and bass.


 

 OK, but GQ is specifically designed to work together it's not like KA put two random drivers together and threw it on the market. It's pretty much like AcuPass from Sonion - you can take 1700 and 2300 but it won't sound the same as 1723WT03


----------



## vector1

piotrus-g said:


> OK, but GQ is specifically designed to work together it's not like KA put two random drivers together and threw it on the market. It's pretty much like AcuPass from Sonion - you can take 1700 and 2300 but it won't sound the same as 1723WT03


 
  
 My first test set should have a DTEC/CI/ED/WBFK, second one will have HODVTEC/CI/GQ. I'm also going to measure the responses since I have contacted someone who has the rig locally, so I'll let you all know what I find out in a couple of weeks.


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## Xymordos

That would certainly be nice to know! If the GQ works well I'd like to use it.


----------



## CMOS1138

xymordos said:


> That would certainly be nice to know! If the GQ works well I'd like to use it.


 
 it works well. I am really enjoying my pairing of GQ and DTEC, very nicely balanced. If I was a base-head I would probably go with CI instead of DTEC for the low end since it has a greater SPL but DTEC is more controlled and accurate.


----------



## CMOS1138

Does anyone have portable amp suggestions that work well with CIEM's and don't break the bank? I have the Fiio E6 and even though it works great with some of my other headphones, It sounds awful when I try using it with my home made IEMs. On my GK build I get a painful feedback and on my GQ+DTEC build it just makes everything sound like mud. The reason I still want an amp though is that I notice a significantly better sound when my source is my laptop which has a more powerful line out in comparison to my cell phone.


----------



## MuZo2

Seems like source impedance causing the problem? Did you try impedance adapter?


----------



## MuZo2

Here is cheap portable amp which is getting good reviews
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/696825/topping-nx1-portable-headphone-amplifier-impressions-thread


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## Xymordos

I just use the ZX1  Portable amps are too bulky. At home I use the HA5000, but this amp is quite colored. The GQ is a WBFK + which ED driver? Have you tried the HODTEC?


----------



## vector1

Maybe consider the Sansa Clip+ or Zip . Very compact, easily carried player with expandability via microSD (64GB in mine). It has a good reputation for low output impedance (no loss in bass) and pretty decent power at lower impedance, unless you're trying to drive some headphones with 200+ohms of impedance. Plus many many other benefits too much to list here.
  
 Most importantly, it's dirt cheap (~50USD) compared to other higher end players with similar audio specifications, easily being the best value for money player if you can live with its quirks.
  
 Personally it's delivering pretty good sound through my CI/DTEC/WBFK combo at the moment.
  
 Also to be sure, have you actually got a good sound with your laptop when using either of your DIY IEMs? I find it strange that there can be such a great difference just changing to the amp... My laptop has slightly greater bass than my Clip Zip, but nothing as muddy as you've described when changing sources/amps.


----------



## Xymordos

My laptop definitely gives fatter bass. I believe its tuned this way.


----------



## wjp007

Anyone try and use a negative impression of an earmold as part of a measurement setup. Seems to me this would be the best way of tuning an iem. The trick is knowing the distance/volume from the ottoblock to the eardrum. But it could allow for optimization for differences in left/right earsize and shape. I was thinking about using silicone from smooth on to make a cast of the impression and then attaching a piece of tubing to the end to make up for the rest of the gap. Thoughts?


----------



## Xymordos

This is the 5 driver one I've been tuning. The >10kHz part changes dramatically depending on the position of the WBFK driver which has made it a nightmare for me to tune. Also I can't seem to get rid of the ditch at 3kHz...but I think that part isn't too bad since the ear canal resonance frequency is ~3-4kHz?


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


----------



## piotrus-g

xymordos said:


> This is the 5 driver one I've been tuning. The >10kHz part changes dramatically depending on the position of the WBFK driver which has made it a nightmare for me to tune. Also I can't seem to get rid of the ditch at 3kHz...but I think that part isn't too bad since the ear canal resonance frequency is ~3-4kHz?
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


 

 Almost good, you need to find a driver and reverse its polarization to reverse what you are seeing between 1kHz and 4kHz - you need peak at around 2,2-3kHz not 1,5kHz. Deep at 12kHz could be better but I don't know how "true" your measurements are in terms of IEC711 so I'm not sure if the deep would actually occur.


----------



## Xymordos

I'm guessing WBFK isn't causing the 3kHz dip right? I have also CI22955 and ED23147 as full range, with two ED29689 in first order (reverse wired). I couldn't find which driver was causing that dip, since reversing any driver will cause other problems...
  
 If I push the earphone in a bit, the graph will look quite different in the 10kHz+ region. There will be a much smoother decay and better extention. I'm guessing the region isn't very accurate.


----------



## vector1

wjp007 said:


> Anyone try and use a negative impression of an earmold as part of a measurement setup. Seems to me this would be the best way of tuning an iem. The trick is knowing the distance/volume from the ottoblock to the eardrum. But it could allow for optimization for differences in left/right earsize and shape. I was thinking about using silicone from smooth on to make a cast of the impression and then attaching a piece of tubing to the end to make up for the rest of the gap. Thoughts?


 
  
 On one hand it sounds like an awesome idea if you really want to customize a frequency response to someone's ear, but there might be other factors like hearing loss/difference in sensitivity between ears that make it more complicated. I think the additional cost might be better spent in terms of actually auditioning and calibrating from a baseline though like the Ultimate ears personal reference monitor...
  
 Perhaps this can be a unique selling point for very high end earphones, where each ear's frequency response is taken into account. I can imagine that it might significantly improve the sound if the person has a unique/very different canal shape between ears.
  
 To make it faster though, I think some kind of 3D printing technology would work great for this since you can scan and rapid-prototype out the canal with the right plugs/distances and a consistent material. Creating a mold seems a little iffy since you still have to build up the part connecting to the eardrum? The tube might end up affecting the sound even more than the material used, since I think the material will play some part in the resonance effects.


----------



## vector1

xymordos said:


> I'm guessing WBFK isn't causing the 3kHz dip right? I have also CI22955 and ED23147 as full range, with two ED29689 in first order (reverse wired). I couldn't find which driver was causing that dip, since reversing any driver will cause other problems...
> 
> If I push the earphone in a bit, the graph will look quite different in the 10kHz+ region. There will be a much smoother decay and better extention. I'm guessing the region isn't very accurate.


 

 You make me very eager to test out my own earphones to see what's wrong/right with them now ^^.
  
 HODVTEC/CI/GQ are on the way with an extra set of EDs to put into my current testing set! Waiting for the shipment now...
  
 I also want to ask everyone, what do you think of a form factor like the beats earphone for my next testing set?
  
 The left side is my current design updated to fit the GQ in, and angled the nozzle even further to fit my ear properly.
  
 The right is a design form factor I'm just looking at to see if I can make this into a conventional looking straight cable earphone, but with awesome sound. This will fit girls/guys with smaller ears as I've seen that my current design doesn't fit well into those. Moving one driver outwards will reduce the size directly in the ear, and give more length for the GQ design to develop a long channel before reaching the eardrum to maximize the response around 2kHz.


----------



## Xymordos

I'm worried that the WBFK might mess up the phase somewhere, since it seems to be quite sensitive to positioning...


----------



## piotrus-g

xymordos said:


> I'm worried that the WBFK might mess up the phase somewhere, since it seems to be quite sensitive to positioning...


 

 What are your tube lengths at each ED driver? I'm guessing your tubs are too long and are causing frequency shift. You should be operating at around 20-25mm for CI 16-13mm for ED, 16-13mm for WBFK.


----------



## Xymordos

ED23147: ~18mm, ED29689: ~11mm and 15mm, WBFK30019: ~8mm, CI22955: ~14mm
  
 I tried shifting the lengths by a few mm but they didn't really do much :\ The WBFK changed a lot with shifted position though, but that could have been the inaccuracy of the 711 above 10k
  
 Oh I just changed the crossover of the ED29689. Both are in series connected by center tap to a 2.2uf cap. Do I need to reverse wire this?


----------



## tranhieu

wjp007 said:


> Anyone try and use a negative impression of an earmold as part of a measurement setup. Seems to me this would be the best way of tuning an iem. The trick is knowing the distance/volume from the ottoblock to the eardrum. But it could allow for optimization for differences in left/right earsize and shape. I was thinking about using silicone from smooth on to make a cast of the impression and then attaching a piece of tubing to the end to make up for the rest of the gap. Thoughts?


 
 FitEar also uses a similar method. Though I wouldn't recommend it for the cost involving isn't suitable for a DIY project, unless you wanna go all out.
  

  


xymordos said:


> This is the 5 driver one I've been tuning. The >10kHz part changes dramatically depending on the position of the WBFK driver which has made it a nightmare for me to tune. Also I can't seem to get rid of the ditch at 3kHz...but I think that part isn't too bad since the ear canal resonance frequency is ~3-4kHz?
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


 
 It looks pretty good. You just need to fix the upper mid region as well as sub 100hz frequencies. 
  
 Ear canal resonance is within 7khz~10khz. What you were referring to is the effect of head & torso acting as filters.


----------



## Xymordos

Sub 100Hz looks like that because the ear plug that fits on the shell keeps popping out of the 711  It always moves slightly outwards during the recording and can break the seal. But when I press it down it looks better. Upper mids...I'll try reversing the CI and later the ED to see if it helps...


----------



## Xymordos

Alright, decided to just push it in and give it the proper seal. This should be from a deeper insertion than normal, but the graph changed quite a bit. The tubes were adjusted slightly, but then the 3k issue is still there...there seems to be a 4k issue too now o.O


----------



## piotrus-g

xymordos said:


> Alright, decided to just push it in and give it the proper seal. This should be from a deeper insertion than normal, but the graph changed quite a bit. The tubes were adjusted slightly, but then the 3k issue is still there...there seems to be a 4k issue too now o.O


 
 This is perfect man! It should be spot on. I'd another WBFK for the sake of high frequencies level. Other than that it's really really good.


----------



## tranhieu

If I were you I would disconnect the WBFK, reverse the polarity of the 2 ED's. There's only 4 permuations so it wouldn't take more than 30 min. When everything is good try connecting the WBFK again. If all fails play around with tube length.
  
 Btw, always start with a fixed length for all tubes. That would make it easier to troubleshoot later.


----------



## Xymordos

Really? This is what a good frequency response should look like?! It looks pretty nasty...
  
 I usually seal the mouth after putting the tubes in, but leave a bit of around 5mm sticking out for adjustment in case anything screws up.
  
 Edit: That's a really bad idea to do. After getting the previous response, I cut the tubes to fit it back into the shell and now there is a phase cancelling issue at 5k, really bad issue too 
  
  


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!






  
@tranhieu there's actually less than 4 permutations since the 2 ED29689s are connected in series through the center tap


----------



## tranhieu

xymordos said:


> Really? This is what a good frequency response should look like?! It looks pretty nasty...
> 
> I usually seal the mouth after putting the tubes in, but leave a bit of around 5mm sticking out for adjustment in case anything screws up.
> 
> ...


 
 No what I'm saying is, you measure all 4 scenarios and look for the one with least cancellation.
  
 If you are half wiring, try reversing the polarity and see if that helps?
  
 If you have some spare caps with values being lose to the one you are using lying around, try swapping them as well


----------



## Xymordos

Haha I get what you mean. I have a feeling its the 29689s that are wrongly wired...well I hope its them, or it'll be a bigger hassle to find out 
  
 Edit: Actually I should reverse the WBFK first...if the 29689 is correct when reversed, the 2k peak should go through the roof no?


----------



## tranhieu

Can't say. There're too many factors involving when designing a 5 driver system.
  
 Why don't you just start with a 2 way network 1st to get the hang of it, then moving up the ladder later? Even a 2 driver design can sound damn good if implemented correctly (case in point Rhines's Stage 2).


----------



## MuZo2

piotrus-g said:


> you need peak at around 2,2-3kHz


 
 Which mid driver gives a peak in this range with known variables?


----------



## piotrus-g

muzo2 said:


> Which mid driver gives a peak in this range with known variables?


 
 Quite a lot
 most of EDs, DWFK, GD, TWFK, EF(probably), some BK (probably), WBHC,
 From Sonion, 2300, 2600, E25S, 3200, 1700, 4100, and dual 2800, E50D, and 4400.


----------



## Xymordos

Flipped the WBFK, pushed it back a bit to give it a bit of 'horn' design, and got this  Although a 5 driver one is incredibly difficult to make, but making it is surely really fun. Also summer is really the only time I have to make this, since when I start working in Autumn I will have no time at all  
  
 Edit: I'll try and tame the 4k and 5k peaks. If nothing works I'll flip both the ED and the WBFK to see what happens.
  
  


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


----------



## tranhieu

Now that looks a lot better. How do they sound?


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## Xymordos

Haven't tested yet, very busy recently. Will give a description tomorrow and see if I can smooth it a bit  
  
 From what I see from the driver config, the ED and WBFK are flipped in phase to the CI, which should be what's causing the 3k dip. Should I flip them back or is the dip currently acceptable.


----------



## tranhieu

That's why you should look at the data sheet first before proceeding 
  
 Those peaks are not too bad, might be a bit hot but you can even them out with dampers.


----------



## CMOS1138

vector1 said:


> Maybe consider the Sansa Clip+ or Zip . Very compact, easily carried player with expandability via microSD (64GB in mine). It has a good reputation for low output impedance (no loss in bass) and pretty decent power at lower impedance, unless you're trying to drive some headphones with 200+ohms of impedance. Plus many many other benefits too much to list here.
> 
> Most importantly, it's dirt cheap (~50USD) compared to other higher end players with similar audio specifications, easily being the best value for money player if you can live with its quirks.
> 
> ...


 
 I do have a sansa clip and it is such a great little player that it was almost instantly claimed by the wife. Perhaps I will have to purchase another one. 
  
 As to the sound I get from my laptop, the difference between that and my cell phone is subtle but definitely perceptible, The sound is good either way but to my ears it is slightly sweeter from the laptop. Mids are richer and base has more kick, but again, it is subtle and I did not notice it at first. The only thing I can think of as to why the amp may be giving me such strange results is possibly because I chose the lowest impedance driver options for each of my designs because I wanted to be able to use them strait from my cell phone.


----------



## vector1

cmos1138 said:


> I do have a sansa clip and it is such a great little player that it was almost instantly claimed by the wife. Perhaps I will have to purchase another one.
> 
> As to the sound I get from my laptop, the difference between that and my cell phone is subtle but definitely perceptible, The sound is good either way but to my ears it is slightly sweeter from the laptop. Mids are richer and base has more kick, but again, it is subtle and I did not notice it at first. The only thing I can think of as to why the amp may be giving me such strange results is possibly because I chose the lowest impedance driver options for each of my designs because I wanted to be able to use them strait from my cell phone.


 
 Buy another! In fact, buy a couple spare!
  
 Low impedance might give better sensitivity, but ultimately might compromise sound quality when driven with higher output impedance sources. While it's not needed to design some super high impedances into the earphone, my earphones have a higher impedance and need to be driven with nearly two times the volume on my sansa clip as compared to other IEMs like JH16/shure 846, but has such awesome sound still.


----------



## Xymordos

Somehow my ED23147 died, gonna have to get a new one before I can continue. Are there any drivers good in the bass department that are smaller than the CI? I'd like to try some of them out. I saw the HC2376x series and the BK series seems to be fitting. Maybe even the DTEC/TEC, but that's probably too much bass when used with the CI.


----------



## vector1

If you like tight bass, consider using the DTEC. It's flat response helps prevent bass bloat as compared to CI, which is why I'm using DTEC for bass and CI for mids now.


----------



## Xymordos

vector1 said:


> If you like tight bass, consider using the DTEC. It's flat response helps prevent bass bloat as compared to CI, which is why I'm using DTEC for bass and CI for mids now.


 
 I'm scared the driver might be a bit big, as well as the bass added on to the CI might go overboard. Is your bass fine when using both together?


----------



## vector1

xymordos said:


> I'm scared the driver might be a bit big, as well as the bass added on to the CI might go overboard. Is your bass fine when using both together?


 
 It sounds as fine as a really fine thing . I'm going to add and ED for even lusher mids, which is what is lacking.
  
 I've been listening to bassy songs to test the response
  
 I recommend white clouds decaf, limit to your love, hotel room service and in da club as good sub-bass tests.
  
 Limit to your love sounds awesome with the oscillating sub bass beat and piano accompaniment, see if you can get that head vibrating beat going on just a CI alone.


----------



## Xymordos

I'll see if I can fit a DTEC in, if not I'll probably use a BK or HC and hope they're good. I took out the ED23147, and looking at the space that was created, it can fit around 1.5x the ED driver. Using three ED drivers together gave a very bad peak at 2kHz for me, but I really like the clarity and details of the ED driver. 
  
 Edit: I think the vented HODTEC has a really nice soft bass compared to the CI driver?


----------



## vector1

Hm, I just realised that it does have a vent. What do I need to do with it? As long it's uncovered within the shell it's okay already?
  
 Also, maybe you can just rearrange the layout a little to fit in all the drivers? HODVTEC is like a DTEC in size, so it's quite square from the front as opposed to the flatter profile of CI.


----------



## Xymordos

I think you can just leave it open? Blocking the hole gives a difference sound too  The DTEC will probably stick out of the shell for me, don't think it will be suitable unfortunately


----------



## MuZo2

tranhieu said:


> FitEar also uses a similar method. Though I wouldn't recommend it for the cost involving isn't suitable for a DIY project, unless you wanna go all out.


 
 Actually there is no real benefit with using this method unless you have right compensation for it. So for DIY and to compare one measurement to other you can just use a tube instead.


----------



## tranhieu

^ That tube is no different than a downgraded 2cc coupler, and you still need to compensate in the end.
  
 Anyway I've never tried this route before. But I think the idea is to have better seal when measuring since everyone's earmoulds are unique. The probe used there is a G.R.A.S 711 so there's no need for compensating later.


----------



## Xymordos

The stainless steel chunk with the microphone inside is the 711 that can record the actual frequency response without the need to compensate right ?
  
 If you can buy things off China I can recommend a very good tool for DIY measurements


----------



## MuZo2

If its on taobao can you post a link pls.


----------



## Xymordos

I hesitated before since the seller told me it is borderline illegal. But anyways, hopefully DIYers can benefit from this before anything happens.
  
 http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1z09.2.9.13.vsgG3j&id=37135316408&_u=ukqv5el5e70


----------



## tranhieu

Wait only 499 yuan?! o.O 
  
 What brand is that?
  
 Anyway if it's illegal you might need to keep it to PM.


----------



## Xymordos

The guy apparently copied a IEC711 and used a similar microphone that has comparable performance for DIY use. From my ARTA tests with my UERM the performance seems to be quite well. It only requires your computer to have a sound card that is nice and flat.


----------



## marozie

I haven't checked in on this thread in quite a while, but there's some amazing stuff happening here! Kudos to everyone pushing the limits of DIY tech.


----------



## wjp007

Actually my intent was not about seal, but trying to mimic the actual dimensions of the ear and impedance it presents to the custom IEM.  From my own earmolds, I know I have quite a bit of difference in the diameter of my left and right ear canals.  I thought this might be a better of way of tuning the IEM than using a straight pipe.  It seems that BA drivers are a lot more sensitive for this, but maybe I'm striving for false precision here.


----------



## vector1

wjp007 said:


> Actually my intent was not about seal, but trying to mimic the actual dimensions of the ear and impedance it presents to the custom IEM.  From my own earmolds, I know I have quite a bit of difference in the diameter of my left and right ear canals.  I thought this might be a better of way of tuning the IEM than using a straight pipe.  It seems that BA drivers are a lot more sensitive for this, but maybe I'm striving for false precision here.


 
  
 I would say if you have the time, go for it, but have you actually looked at the ear canal beyond the mold? As I understand, whatever you see up to the first bend on the mold will be solid acrylic, so it won't affect the sound at all. Only the parts that you don't actually keep in the mold will become part of the "cavity" before the eardrum. At the very most, you can go up to the 2nd bend depending on how deep the original impressions are?


----------



## MuZo2

xymordos said:


> From my ARTA tests with my UERM the performance seems to be quite well. It only requires your computer to have a sound card that is nice and flat.


 

 Does it need a preamp or any power-supply? or just connect directly to mic in? I am wondering if it uses panasonic wm-61a?


----------



## Xymordos

Dunno what mic it uses actually. But yes, you just plug it in to the mic port, and the output from your regular audio out, with all sound effects turned off. It's not super accurate but its miles better than having no measurement at all.


----------



## MuZo2

Is it worth 100$ if same can be achieved with panasonic wm-61a and tube for 10$? There are few Japanese diy guys who use it with  success.


----------



## Xymordos

I...don't have enough knowledge to answer that question  I feel like it's a good investment...


----------



## CMOS1138

Recently, after buffing down my quad IEM in an attempt to achieve better comfort, I though I had somehow managed to kill the DTEC driver because all the base disappeared. Turned out that I had removed just a few to many mm from the end of the tube and it totally changed the sound signature. I was able to resolve the problem by attaching a small bit of tubing to the end of the DTEC's sound port and the thump returned to my music.


----------



## vector1

Just asking, but has anyone managed to reproduce a decent 20Hz sine wave on IEMs? For all my tuning, I can only get a relatively flat response to 50Hz, and then rolling off to about 25-30 Hz before I lose all response.


----------



## piotrus-g

vector1 said:


> Just asking, but has anyone managed to reproduce a decent 20Hz sine wave on IEMs? For all my tuning, I can only get a relatively flat response to 50Hz, and then rolling off to about 25-30 Hz before I lose all response.


 
 Yes, but it depends on drivers - some drivers roll off some don't. Typically non-vented roll-off.


----------



## MIke M

Could also be related to your test equipment and/or method of coupling to the mic, I rarley see a complete dropoff, even with non vented drivers.


----------



## vector1

Maybe my ears just aren't sensitive to 20Hz... I'm using a HODVTEC so I'd expect reasonable amounts of sub bass.


----------



## Xymordos

HODVTEC has quite good sub bass! I feel that it sounds better than the CI! Not sure how to improve the roll off though. Usually I see 10-20db roll off from 50 to 20Hz?


----------



## MIke M

I'd say there's a sound leak somewhere, either from the tube to the receiver, the tube to the mold or the mold to the mic


----------



## piotrus-g

vector1 said:


> Maybe my ears just aren't sensitive to 20Hz... I'm using a HODVTEC so I'd expect reasonable amounts of sub bass.


 
 Are you measuring it on open shell or bare drivers? I measured HODVTEC yesterday and while bare driver measured quite poorly it improved dramatically when I put my fingers near the vents almost closing them, bass improved and response was really good.
 It's because HODVTEC having 4 quite large vents makes it seem as if the sound was leaking out.


----------



## Xymordos

The HODVTEC measured like CI even with the vents open for me o.O
  
 How did you think they sounded? Was it CI or the HODVTEC for you, as a personal preference?


----------



## piotrus-g

xymordos said:


> The HODVTEC measured like CI even with the vents open for me o.O
> 
> How did you think they sounded? Was it CI or the HODVTEC for you, as a personal preference?


 
 I didn't listen to it but if I was to pick ultimate woofer it would be 38DJP007Mi/8a - this is one is unbeatable right now. From what I know no other woofer performs like this


----------



## MuZo2

piotrus-g said:


> I didn't listen to it but if I was to pick ultimate woofer it would be 38DJP007Mi/8a - this is one is unbeatable right now. From what I know no other woofer performs like this



Dynamic drivers?


----------



## MIke M

sonion's vented 3800


----------



## piotrus-g

mike m said:


> sonion's vented 3800


 There is no non-vented 3800 
@muzo2 - as described it's Sonion 38DJP007Mi/8a
You can find this woofer in Roxanne, but Roxanne has two of those in each earpiece


----------



## MIke M

Come on now, give it to me, it's still sonions vented 3800, lol


----------



## vector1

piotrus-g said:


> Are you measuring it on open shell or bare drivers? I measured HODVTEC yesterday and while bare driver measured quite poorly it improved dramatically when I put my fingers near the vents almost closing them, bass improved and response was really good.
> It's because HODVTEC having 4 quite large vents makes it seem as if the sound was leaking out.


 
  
 It was open shell, considering only the front of the driver is embedded in the boot that I printed for testing. I'll certainly try blocking the vents tonight with some pieces of tape to see if that helps.
  
 Also, the HODVTEC wiring diagram is quite confusing until I realized that the drivers were connected in parallel not series... Couldn't decide which side to solder on until I put some thought into it.
  
 I'd love to test out sonion drivers, but I certainly can't afford to buy a tray of 25 at once... HODVTEC should do for now!
  
 Xymordos
  
 I can also hear that rolloff between 50-20Hz, which is why I ask. On the whole, having both CI and HODVTEC in the same shell might not do much for the overall sound. Maybe dual HODVTEC would be easier to configure than CI and HODVTEC, which are subtly different when I listen to then individually. I prefer HODVTEC at the moment though.


----------



## tranhieu

piotrus-g said:


> I didn't listen to it but if I was to pick ultimate woofer it would be 38DJP007Mi/8a - this is one is unbeatable right now. From what I know no other woofer performs like this


 
 Do you have a zoomed in impulse response graph of the 38DJP007Mi/8a?


----------



## Xymordos

Wow the response of that driver is amazing o.o


----------



## MuZo2

piotrus-g said:


> There is no non-vented 3800
> @muzo2 - as described it's Sonion 38DJP007Mi/8a
> You can find this woofer in Roxanne, but Roxanne has two of those in each earpiece



Sorry I wanted to say dd drivers can be better alternative if tuned correctly. And with all those small drivers available its feasible now.


----------



## TwinQY

Would you folks reckon that a 38AJ007Mi/8a + 33A007 + 2 x 2354 setup be viable? Before I had been thinking to go HODVTEC + 33A007 + SWFK, but now I'm thinking that I'd like the 2354's characteristics a bit more. Not to mention that the THD on the 38AJ with the vents closed looks nice. Just occured to me to ask here since the 3800 came up anyways.
  
 Comparatively, the CW-L51a has a similar setup but with a 2800 (dual 2600) instead of the 2354s. The CW-L71a I've heard uses two 2800s.
  
 As an addendum, how is Colsan Microelectronics for shipping to NA in general? They're the only place I know of that will take orders lower than whatever Sonion's MOQ was. I could be mistaken.


----------



## tranhieu

twinqy said:


> Would you folks reckon that a 38AJ007Mi/8a + 33A007 + 2 x 2354 setup be viable? Before I had been thinking to go HODVTEC + 33A007 + SWFK, but now I'm thinking that I'd like the 2354's characteristics a bit more. Not to mention that the THD on the 38AJ with the vents closed looks nice. Just occured to me to ask here since the 3800 came up anyways.
> 
> Comparatively, the CW-L51a has a similar setup but with a 2800 (dual 2600) instead of the 2354s. The CW-L71a I've heard uses two 2800s.
> 
> As an addendum, how is Colsan Microelectronics for shipping to NA in general? They're the only place I know of that will take orders lower than whatever Sonion's MOQ was. I could be mistaken.


 
 1x2354 would be plenty enough if the low pass on the 3800 is done correctly.
  
 By NA you mean North America? As far as I know Colsan is only responsible for UK and EU market and they will refer to your nearest distributor (in this case Sonion's US distributor) if you are not located in the region they're in charged of.


----------



## shakur1996

piotrus-g said:


> I didn't listen to it but if I was to pick ultimate woofer it would be 38DJP007Mi/8a - this is one is unbeatable right now. From what I know no other woofer performs like this




Peter, are you talking about just SPL level of 3800 or about its technical performance. In other words, 3800 is special because it's just very loud in the bass region or its technical performance(=quality) in the bass region is superb?


----------



## piotrus-g

tranhieu said:


> Do you have a zoomed in impulse response graph of the 38DJP007Mi/8a?


 


 It was measured on higher impedance set-up so with low impedance it can be slightly different
  


twinqy said:


> Would you folks reckon that a 38AJ007Mi/8a + 33A007 + 2 x 2354 setup be viable? Before I had been thinking to go HODVTEC + 33A007 + SWFK, but now I'm thinking that I'd like the 2354's characteristics a bit more. Not to mention that the THD on the 38AJ with the vents closed looks nice. Just occured to me to ask here since the 3800 came up anyways.
> 
> Comparatively, the CW-L51a has a similar setup but with a 2800 (dual 2600) instead of the 2354s. The CW-L71a I've heard uses two 2800s.
> 
> As an addendum, how is Colsan Microelectronics for shipping to NA in general? They're the only place I know of that will take orders lower than whatever Sonion's MOQ was. I could be mistaken.


 
 I'd say 33A007 is not necessary and I'd personally go with 2354 and 2389 instead of dual 2354 - just for the sake of slightly different sound and the fact you'd be able to wire 2389 in half coil and get bigger output to match high SPL from 3800. Nevertheless it will be very bassy set up and you have to keep that in mind. If you go with 3800 expect really low lows.
 Colsan's MOQ is 25 pcs
  


shakur1996 said:


> Peter, are you talking about just SPL level of 3800 or about its technical performance. In other words, 3800 is special because it's just very loud in the bass region or its technical performance(=quality) in the bass region is superb?


 
 I think both... the unit I measured here is simply the only woofer I know that drops after 500Hz and doesn't go up again. CIs, BKs, 3300, 3700, (HO)D(V)TECs even the regular 38AJ always has some sort of bump around 1-2kHz that is higher than actual bass response, which means it has to be attenuated with dampers.
 From my perspective (as a manufacturer of silicone IEMs) the best woofer would be smaller sized woofer with the same type of response and much lower SPL. 110-115dB is plenty, who needs 125dB? With 125dB you either have to go with a lot of resistance or very low impedance for tweeters - this is not something that is DAP-friendly solution


----------



## tranhieu

piotrus-g said:


> It was measured on higher impedance set-up so with low impedance it can be slightly different


 
 Cheers. Decay time looks similar to that of the CI. 125dB doesn't seem too much considering it's a dual receiver.


----------



## piotrus-g

tranhieu said:


> Cheers. Decay time looks similar to that of the CI. 125dB doesn't seem too much considering it's a dual receiver.


 
 Well. 2389 have 104dB at 1kHz. With two 2389 you get 110dB so you still have 15dB difference between 200 and 1000 Hz. So you need at least 3 2300 drivers to make it sound around natural. or 4-5 TWFK-30017  If you're working in acrylics - sure it's quite possible set up; in silicone it's impossible though


----------



## tranhieu

piotrus-g said:


> Well. 2389 have 104dB at 1kHz. With two 2389 you get 110dB so you still have 15dB difference between 200 and 1000 Hz. So you need at least 3 2300 drivers to make it sound around natural. or 4-5 TWFK-30017  If you're working in acrylics - sure it's quite possible set up; in silicone it's impossible though


 
 Well SPL is one thing, but what matters more is the low pass's cutoff. I'm pretty sure there'd be no problem with a 15dB difference if one can move the cutoff down to 100hz or below. I've tried 120dB with a dual CI before and they sounded pretty decent with a ~600hz cutoff already.
  
 And personally I don't like a dual 2300 setup, unless they are half-wired.


----------



## Xymordos

What's a target response I should aim for if I'm measuring on the ARTA? I did a lot of testing and matching on my 5 driver. I replaced the ED23147 with a BK28507 as full range. After a lot of trials and errors, I got a response like this. I have the CI and the bk as full range, but with them wired normally, there is a 10db dip at 3kHz. With both of them wired reversely, there is a 10db dip at 2kHz. This graph has the CI wired normally, and the BK reverse wired. In every configuration I tried there seems to be a high-mid range phase cancellation of some sort (not an enormous dip of 30db though). The response above 10kHz and below 20Hz seems very inaccurate as they're quite erratic every time I measure them. 
 te


----------



## MuZo2

If you measure your favorite IEM(not made by you) and overlay on it it should give you target response.


----------



## Xymordos

When I first got my 'DIY' 711, I measured my own UERMs. This is the frequency response of my UERM left earpiece (right earpiece bass driver is wonky). I wonder if this 711 is accurate based on this graph?


----------



## tranhieu

No it's not...


----------



## piotrus-g

xymordos said:


> When I first got my 'DIY' 711, I measured my own UERMs. This is the frequency response of my UERM left earpiece (right earpiece bass driver is wonky). I wonder if this 711 is accurate based on this graph?


 
 Here's mine for comparison

  
 Do you measure yours with Sine or Noise? What's your settings in general?


----------



## Xymordos

I used MLS default settings. I have to use blutak to wrap the thing around the tube though. 
  
 Edit: I'm just gonna manually adjust the 3kHz to 9kHz frequencies upwards to roughly get the actual response. At least it tells me whether I have phase cancelling.


----------



## piotrus-g

xymordos said:


> I used MLS default settings. I have to use blutak to wrap the thing around the tube though.
> 
> Edit: I'm just gonna manually adjust the 3kHz to 9kHz frequencies upwards to roughly get the actual response. At least it tells me whether I have phase cancelling.


 
 Could you do the sine measurement? Use sweep, long sweep 256k sequence and post graph then.


----------



## Xymordos

It looks the same :\
  
 On the bright side I fixed the phase issue! Time to reduce the peaks...


----------



## Negataros

On soldering the wires to the drivers itself, what kind of wire do you guys use?


 litz wires, magnet wires/enameled, regular copper wires


 if so and what gauge as well?


----------



## MuZo2

negataros said:


> On soldering the wires to the drivers itself, what kind of wire do you guys use?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




This was discussed few pages back.


----------



## Xymordos

Try the wires from Estron. They're very good apparently.


----------



## vector1

I'm happy to report that I have gotten pretty flat response down to 20Hz now. In hindsight and during testing, I found that CI really doesn't add much for the sound, other than to make it slightly more fuller since it has a different response than HODVTEC. I think for ultimate bass, dual HODVTEC and GQ will be sufficient for a great setup.


----------



## MuZo2

GQ is combination of what drivers?


----------



## vector1

muzo2 said:


> GQ is combination of what drivers?


 
  
 The WBFK + ED driver with internal crossover. I would honestly prefer to adjust WBFK and ED separately which I will do when I go back to my first earphones (WBFK, ED, CI, DTEC), but for now I'll complete testing the HODVTEC, CI, GQ earphone without modifications.


----------



## CMOS1138

vector1 said:


> I'm happy to report that I have gotten pretty flat response down to 20Hz now. In hindsight and during testing, I found that CI really doesn't add much for the sound, other than to make it slightly more fuller since it has a different response than HODVTEC. I think for ultimate bass, dual HODVTEC and GQ will be sufficient for a great setup.


 
 I need to re-work my GQ + DTEC set by using an electronic crossover instead of or in conjunction with the red damper, I have discovered that I don't get the base kick I am looking for unless the sound port is deep in my ear canal, unfortunately, making the sound port go this deep causes me to get killer headaches and feel sick so that is not an option. I know basically nothing about designing a low pass filter, and I don't fully understand circuit diagrams. Can I get away with using a single resistor of around 8 Ohm for the low pass filter or is that only going to make DTEC quieter overall? Any suggestions would be appreciated.


----------



## vector1

cmos1138 said:


> I need to re-work my GQ + DTEC set by using an electronic crossover instead of or in conjunction with the red damper, I have discovered that I don't get the base kick I am looking for unless the sound port is deep in my ear canal, unfortunately, making the sound port go this deep causes me to get killer headaches and feel sick so that is not an option. I know basically nothing about designing a low pass filter, and I don't fully understand circuit diagrams. Can I get away with using a single resistor of around 8 Ohm for the low pass filter or is that only going to make DTEC quieter overall? Any suggestions would be appreciated.


 
  
 I'm using a 2nd order filter with 100uF caps as per photo below, stacked twice, resistance is changed to taste as it controls the volume of the bass


----------



## Xymordos

Hows the resolution of HODVTEC vs CI? I feel that HODVTEC seems be worse compared to the CI.


----------



## CMOS1138

vector1 said:


> I'm using a 2nd order filter with 100uF caps as per photo below, stacked twice, resistance is changed to taste as it controls the volume of the bass


 
 OK let me see if I can figure out that Diagram, so the Vout side is connected to the driver correct? and the caps are wired in parallel with the driver. are the caps in series with each other or in parallel? and based on what you are saying about picking the resistor to taste and that it controls volume, does that mean that the resistor is optional? could I achieve the same low pass effect with only the capacitors?


----------



## piotrus-g

In simple words:
Low pass - resistor in series followed by capacitor in parallel connected to negative wire.

You HAVE TO use resistor or other driver first before cap wired to ground


----------



## CMOS1138

piotrus-g said:


> In simple words:
> Low pass - resistor in series followed by capacitor in parallel connected to negative wire.
> 
> You HAVE TO use resistor or other driver first before cap wired to ground


 
 And how do I pick what capacitor value to use?


----------



## vector1

xymordos said:


> Hows the resolution of HODVTEC vs CI? I feel that HODVTEC seems be worse compared to the CI.


 
  
 I don't actually use it for anything other than the low end, and I feel the HODVTEC is better than the CI as it has higher output even under a 2nd order lowpass filter to reduce the 1-2k hump.


cmos1138 said:


> OK let me see if I can figure out that Diagram, so the Vout side is connected to the driver correct? and the caps are wired in parallel with the driver. are the caps in series with each other or in parallel? and based on what you are saying about picking the resistor to taste and that it controls volume, does that mean that the resistor is optional? could I achieve the same low pass effect with only the capacitors?


 
  
 Resistor is not optional...
  


cmos1138 said:


> And how do I pick what capacitor value to use?


 
  
 I suggest you google RC lowpass filter. One main problem with the calculations is that they assume a ideal source, which has infinite current/constant voltage, in isolation. What it actually is in reality is the different filters and drivers have impedance, resistance, and capacitance that interact with each other in a passive circuit to give very different results than what you expect. Either measurement will be needed, or careful listening with sine sweeps. I personally just listen, but I'm still trying to measure the response of the earphones.
  
 In general, higher cap values lower the cutoff frequency, either increasing the bandwidth for highpass, or reducing the bandwidth for lowpass filters and vice versa.
  
 If for example you think the mids are too contaminated by the HODVTEC on a lowpass, keep increasing the capacitance used to lower the cut off frequency. I suggested 100uF as a starting point, but feel free to experiment with other values.


----------



## tomscy2000

xymordos said:


>


 
  
 Definitely doesn't look like 711. Looks more like 2cc or some kind of "X" cc tubing. Couplers that don't have resonators to simulate canal gain often have that "sagging reverse U" shape.


----------



## Xymordos

tomscy2000 said:


> Definitely doesn't look like 711. Looks more like 2cc or some kind of "X" cc tubing. Couplers that don't have resonators to simulate canal gain often have that "sagging reverse U" shape.


 
  
 I see, thanks. I guess I'll use my UERM as a baseline while tuning, since the UERM graph is more or less straight, other than that 10k peak.


----------



## wz2000

Actually you can use just a capacitor without the resistor for a mild lowpass effect. Here I have a 47uF capacitor parallel with a ED-23147 driver (red=with cap, blue=without):


----------



## CMOS1138

Thank you all for the great information. Now i need to purchase an array of resistors and capacitors and test test test.


----------



## vector1

Ironically, I'm now using the CI as a highs driver by putting it in series with a 0.4uF cap. It doesn't add anything the HODVTEC can't do for the bass, and I find that the treble extension of the GQ is too weak, possibly due to my internal acoustic path design. It's never used as I expect it to be used haha.


----------



## Xymordos

Wow really? CI gives a punchy bass doesn't it? The HODVTEC seems to be a bit...fat in terms of bass. Does the GQ have a built in x-over?


----------



## piotrus-g

vector1 said:


> Ironically, I'm now using the CI as a highs driver by putting it in series with a 0.4uF cap. It doesn't add anything the HODVTEC can't do for the bass, and I find that the treble extension of the GQ is too weak, possibly due to my internal acoustic path design. It's never used as I expect it to be used haha.


 

 I don't want to crush your designs but that's pretty useless crossover point for CI.
 If it doesn't do it for you, why don't you switch to some other driver like BK, EF or TWFK?


----------



## vector1

I find that GQ is pretty decent by itself, but when combined with HODVTEC, the subbass bleeds slightly into the bass, which caused it to sound muddy. While cutting it further is not possible, I repurposed the CI instead to a highs which it gives the crisp vocals I look for when combined with the GQ.
  
 I would suggest either CI or HODVTEC alone as the bass, but after some A/B testing I prefer the HODVTEC sound, so CI has to go somewhere else. CI subbass is also much weaker than HODVTEC, and while CI has stronger bass, that region is the last area I want to emphasize as it causes the whole sound to be too forwards in the mids.
  
 In other words, my current setup runs HODVTEC on 2nd low pass filters for sub-bass, GQ on 100uF high pass filter to avoid the sub-bass while keeping mids and highs, then CI on a 0.4uF cap to pass the highs only.


----------



## vector1

piotrus-g said:


> I don't want to crush your designs but that's pretty useless crossover point for CI.
> If it doesn't do it for you, why don't you switch to some other driver like BK, EF or TWFK?


 
 I know it's useless, but I already bought it. In hindsight, a WBFK would do just fine in this design instead of a CI. This is my 2nd attempt .


----------



## Xymordos

The HODVTEC I used gave a fat bass which I didn't like. I preferred the CI's clean and punchy bass, and also thought that the details from the CI was more refined. My 5 driver combination sounds very clear and detailed, with extremely hard hitting bass that is also clean (not sure if that is a good thing...but it sounds good for me). Resolution is superb, and I think I will make another one just like this in the future but better quality (no need to tune as much). I never managed to polish my shells to shine properly and there are acrylic residue everywhere on the shells 
  
 If Sonion 3800 behaves like the DTEC series, are the Sonion 4400 series similar to the SWFK?


----------



## piotrus-g

xymordos said:


> If Sonion 3800 behaves like the DTEC series, are the Sonion 4400 series similar to the SWFK?


 
 No. 4400 is full-range and for IEM I would use it for mids only. It doesn't have strong highs.
 There is no Sonion SWFK, actually there is no Sonion FK-resembling driver. This is where KA exceeds Sonion. I once talked to engineer at Sonion why they don't make true tweeter like FK/WBFK and he said something like they were happy with 2300 sound and they didn't see need for anything different at the time.


----------



## Xymordos

piotrus-g said:


> No. 4400 is full-range and for IEM I would use it for mids only. It doesn't have strong highs.
> There is no Sonion SWFK, actually there is no Sonion FK-resembling driver. This is where KA exceeds Sonion. I once talked to engineer at Sonion why they don't make true tweeter like FK/WBFK and he said something like they were happy with 2300 sound and they didn't see need for anything different at the time.


 
 Interesting, you would think such a small driver would have better highs  The Knowles FK series I feel really makes the highs more detailed and airy.


----------



## piotrus-g

xymordos said:


> Interesting, you would think such a small driver would have better highs  The Knowles FK series I feel really makes the highs more detailed and airy.


 
 I don't know... I think FK is something proprietary like different diaphragm material or something about its motor but there's no other driver I know of that compares to FK. Plus SWFK has definitely type III damping.


----------



## CMOS1138

xymordos said:


> I never managed to polish my shells to shine properly and there are acrylic residue everywhere on the shells


 
  
 That sounds like a problem you could solve easily with your current build so why bother making a duplicate? By acrylic residue, are you referring to uncured tacky surface or do you mean something else? obviously the solution depends on what material you are using but assuming you are using a UV acrylic, than that problem could be solved with a stronger UV light and longer exposure time. I got a UV light box off e-bay that is intended for acrylic nail curing, it is perfect for this application as it has 4 strong UV lights and has both a timed and un-timed setting. Once I am finished building a set and put on my final finishing top coat, I set it in the light box and let it bake for 10 to 20 minutes, this gives me a super glossy, hard and slick finish with no uncured residue at all. 
  
 Since you still have the residue on the current set, I would recommend thoroughly cleaning the surface with alcohol to remove the uncured acrylic, buffing or sanding down the surface evenly to make everything slightly smaller, and than applying a layer of top coat materiel and bake it under the UV light for a long time. Even if you goof up and it doesn't fit properly anymore, you need to resolve the curing issue before you build another set or you will just have the same problem all over again.


----------



## Shiikamaru

Hi guys, from this thread, I have learnt a lot from you guys. At the moment, I have a set of CI 22955, ED 29689, TWFK and Linum T2 female plugs. Do you guys have any suggestions/schematic on how I can wire this guys up? I currently have 2mm tubes which are too big for the CI 22955. If I'm not wrong, my acoustic dampers are 2.08mm. What diameter of tubes do you guys recommend? Does that mean I cant squeeze the 2.08mm dampers into lets say 1.5mm tubings? Does it matter which way I wire the balanced amature to the Linum T2 female plugs? I'm currently waiting for the gun to which to mix the mould to arrive. Any help would be appreciated! Thanks in advance.


----------



## Xymordos

cmos1138 said:


> That sounds like a problem you could solve easily with your current build so why bother making a duplicate? By acrylic residue, are you referring to uncured tacky surface or do you mean something else? obviously the solution depends on what material you are using but assuming you are using a UV acrylic, than that problem could be solved with a stronger UV light and longer exposure time. I got a UV light box off e-bay that is intended for acrylic nail curing, it is perfect for this application as it has 4 strong UV lights and has both a timed and un-timed setting. Once I am finished building a set and put on my final finishing top coat, I set it in the light box and let it bake for 10 to 20 minutes, this gives me a super glossy, hard and slick finish with no uncured residue at all.
> 
> Since you still have the residue on the current set, I would recommend thoroughly cleaning the surface with alcohol to remove the uncured acrylic, buffing or sanding down the surface evenly to make everything slightly smaller, and than applying a layer of top coat materiel and bake it under the UV light for a long time. Even if you goof up and it doesn't fit properly anymore, you need to resolve the curing issue before you build another set or you will just have the same problem all over again.


 
 What I mean by residue is that when I glue the face place onto the shell I often accidentally spill them during the curing, causing them to solidify on places I don't want.


----------



## Xymordos

shiikamaru said:


> Hi guys, from this thread, I have learnt a lot from you guys. At the moment, I have a set of CI 22955, ED 29689, TWFK and Linum T2 female plugs. Do you guys have any suggestions/schematic on how I can wire this guys up? I currently have 2mm tubes which are too big for the CI 22955. If I'm not wrong, my acoustic dampers are 2.08mm. What diameter of tubes do you guys recommend? Does that mean I cant squeeze the 2.08mm dampers into lets say 1.5mm tubings? Does it matter which way I wire the balanced amature to the Linum T2 female plugs? I'm currently waiting for the gun to which to mix the mould to arrive. Any help would be appreciated! Thanks in advance.


 
 You can squeeze the dampers into smaller tubings depending on tubing material.


----------



## CMOS1138

xymordos said:


> What I mean by residue is that when I glue the face place onto the shell I often accidentally spill them during the curing, causing them to solidify on places I don't want.


 
 sounds like a job for a dremel and sandpaper.


----------



## wjp007

What I do is sand the edges after I put the faceplate on with a dremel tool and flapper sanding disc. Then I apply a thin topcoat of UV acrylic on the whole shell and cure. I hang the unit using wire inserted into the connector when curing. Then a let it cure for a long time. This is the only way I was able to get a polished finish.


----------



## Xymordos

cmos1138 said:


> sounds like a job for a dremel and sandpaper.


 
  
  


wjp007 said:


> What I do is sand the edges after I put the faceplate on with a dremel tool and flapper sanding disc. Then I apply a thin topcoat of UV acrylic on the whole shell and cure. I hang the unit using wire inserted into the connector when curing. Then a let it cure for a long time. This is the only way I was able to get a polished finish.


 
  
 Just spend quite a few hours sanding the entire thing. Looks quite nice matted black actually! wjp007: does that method actually get a even coat of polish? :O


----------



## wjp007

Yes it is possible, you just have to be careful and apply as thin a coat as possible, but not so thin that the material streaks.


----------



## Dan Jarros

Hello all. I'd like to try to do a set of CIEMs using a recessed 2 pin plug sockets like this:
  
 http://www.lunashops.com/goods.php?id=3569
  
 Does anybody know of a US supplier of these type of plugs?


----------



## CMOS1138

dan jarros said:


> Hello all. I'd like to try to do a set of CIEMs using a recessed 2 pin plug sockets like this:
> 
> http://www.lunashops.com/goods.php?id=3569
> 
> Does anybody know of a US supplier of these type of plugs?


 
 Hi Dan, welcome back   
  
 I have considered making my own recessed plug ports but after making 8 sets and using a different cable on each of them, I have started going in the opposite directing and extending my connectors out of the shell slightly. I find that most 2 pin connector style cables have a shroud like part that covers part of the pins and prevents the pins from deeply inserting into the connectors if the connector is flush with the surrounding surface. with the connectors extended out of the shell slightly, the connecting pins can be fully inserted and the shroud on the cable covers up the connectors and sits flush with the shell, this gives a secure connection that doesn't get dislodged easily. Another thing to consider is that the shroud is shaped differently on every cable I have used so far and some of them would definitely not fit into that socket at all and that would prevent a connection (some are round and others can be quite large.)


----------



## Xymordos

I find it easier to use a protruding plug like UE. I would sand it a bit and then the UE default cable will be able to fit on the plug. This also creates more space in the shell to place drivers.


----------



## Xymordos

Man there are so many drivers I see being put on sale that I can't find the datasheets to. Even some 6xxxx drivers by Knowles can be found on Taobao! I couldn't find any information on the DTEC-30811


----------



## Dan Jarros

I saw some of you talking about getting a shiny finish on DIY acrylic shells. I saw in some pro company vids they use a standard high speed polishing/ grinding wheel with the cotton buffer and standard "red" rouge. Anybody tried it? I tried red and white rouges with a dremel polish wheel with bad/ melty results. Also has anybody tried to thin the UV gel for really thin final coats? If so, what did you use? Alcohol? Acetone? 
  
 DJ


----------



## MIke M

Dremels can spin pretty fast, try to limit the speed to 3k rpm (which is pretty slow). That should give you better results.


----------



## tsn141

dan jarros said:


> I saw some of you talking about getting a shiny finish on DIY acrylic shells. I saw in some pro company vids they use a standard high speed polishing/ grinding wheel with the cotton buffer and standard "red" rouge. Anybody tried it? I tried red and white rouges with a dremel polish wheel with bad/ melty results. Also has anybody tried to thin the UV gel for really thin final coats? If so, what did you use? Alcohol? Acetone?
> 
> DJ


 
 You can use lacquarer(UV lack for acrylic) and they use polishing buff and polishing paste. do not polish very high speeds and first polishing must be done with polishing paste and hard cotton and second one dry and with softer "cotton".
  
 Or you can use  polishing paste instead of pumice which is a wet method


----------



## ClemBurmingham

So I have a question about UV acrylic. I have just started and have gotten a solid block (working on calc 3 homework and did not pay attention to times at all), a few partial shells, and one good shell. However the good shell had a small portion chip out when I was cleaning it up. I know that the time in whatever chamber is different for each person depending on what they are using, but is there an "optimal" thickness I should be looking for?


----------



## CMOS1138

clemburmingham said:


> So I have a question about UV acrylic. I have just started and have gotten a solid block (working on calc 3 homework and did not pay attention to times at all), a few partial shells, and one good shell. However the good shell had a small portion chip out when I was cleaning it up. I know that the time in whatever chamber is different for each person depending on what they are using, but is there an "optimal" thickness I should be looking for?


 
  
 you are basically going to have to keep experimenting until you find a process that works for you. I have a box full of failed shells at my workbench so I know how you feel but just keep trying and you will get it. with UV acrylic I found that curing times varied greatly depending on the brand and viscosity. If you are using a nail type light box than 1 minute will probably be enough time with a low viscosity liquid to get a usable shell, if you are using a black-light instead of a dedicated UV light than it will probably take closer to 15 minutes but again this is all highly dependent on the brand of UV acrylic that you are using so you are going to have to keep up the experiments.


----------



## wjp007

I've been trying to get somewhere between 1mm to 2mm. I only have one UV bulb, so I built a small turntable to rotate the unit to get uniform curing. This works well for me. The time has vary significantly since I have been trying different tint colors. I just keep checking the cure frequently.


----------



## tsn141

wjp007 said:


> I've been trying to get somewhere between 1mm to 2mm. I only have one UV bulb, so I built a small turntable to rotate the unit to get uniform curing. This works well for me. The time has vary significantly since I have been trying different tint colors. I just keep checking the cure frequently.


 
 You can use mirrror or uniform lighting.


----------



## Dan Jarros

Great vid. Thanks for that..........when a denture polishing video is a great find....well....We're all pretty warped in here.
  
 DJ


----------



## Xymordos

I have a opaque black faceplate, and it looks pretty good sanded and matte


----------



## Dan Jarros

I'm looking for  opinions on those who have experience with the Knowles GK-31732-000 drivers and the GQ-30710-000 series as well. I've built a couple of units using the GQ-30710-000 with no electronics and various (red or green) dampers. I would describe them as full range and smooth but mid-rangey, with or without the dampers. I'm wondering if the GK series is truly a step up. Baisically, I'm looking for the best "solder the tabs and you're done" package. I have no experience with and Sonion or other products.
 DJ


----------



## CMOS1138

dan jarros said:


> I'm looking for  opinions on those who have experience with the Knowles GK-31732-000 drivers and the GQ-30710-000 series as well. I've built a couple of units using the GQ-30710-000 with no electronics and various (red or green) dampers. I would describe them as full range and smooth but mid-rangey, with or without the dampers. I'm wondering if the GK series is truly a step up. Baisically, I'm looking for the best "solder the tabs and you're done" package. I have no experience with and Sonion or other products.
> DJ


 
  
 The simple answer is yes, the GK is a big step up from the GQ. I have built sets using both of those drivers and I can definitely say you will not be disappointed by the GK. I recommend using separate sound tubes for the CI and TWFK parts but you can use a single tube with good results as well if you have particularly small ear canals. The best sound results when you have a deep insertion ear canal with two sound ports, the sound is quite amazing and I like to compare it to taking a big concert type speaker stack into a quiet room. If you are like me and a long ear canal port gives you headaches, than you can get almost the same effect with a short ear canal section by using a brown damper on the CI side and no damper on the TWFK.


----------



## Dan Jarros

Thanks CMOS. My next design will be as you suggest. GK with 2 tubes deep with no dampers. What has been your best method of attaching tubes to the 2 ports? Also what tubing if I might ask? I just tried a combination of a little super glue followed by UV gel on the GK sound port and ruined one of the tweeters (bought an extra though). I don't understand how the ports are not designed for a specific tubing. I've never felt good about any of the connections I've made on Knowles drivers.


----------



## CMOS1138

dan jarros said:


> Thanks CMOS. My next design will be as you suggest. GK with 2 tubes deep with no dampers. What has been your best method of attaching tubes to the 2 ports? Also what tubing if I might ask? I just tried a combination of a little super glue followed by UV gel on the GK sound port and ruined one of the tweeters (bought an extra though). I don't understand how the ports are not designed for a specific tubing. I've never felt good about any of the connections I've made on Knowles drivers.


 
  
 I am most satisfied with the connection I get using UV gel. put a small amount of UV gel on the end of the tube, slip it over the sound port, and cure under a UV light. Once the tube is attached, apply a 2nd layer if UV gel around the base of the tube to give you a solid connection with no leaks. 
  
 attaching 2 tubes to GK is a bit tricky and it took me several attempts before I worked out a reliable method. I have come up with 2 solutions that both work pretty well. 
  
 method #1 is using standard sized acoustic tubing (AT from here on). The difficult part about using 2 tubes of this type on GK is that the distance between the CI audio port and the TWFK audio port is exactly the same as the wall thickness of the tubing, this means that you can only fit one tubing wall in between the two ports. In order to solve this, make a small diagonal cut out on the side of one of the tubes and than bond the two tubes together using UV gel. The result is 2 tubes that share 1 wall for a short section on one end. Next, attach the dual tube to the driver ports using the method stated above. You want to be careful on that last step not to cover over the driver ports, it is impossible to not cover the CI port partially since it is on the front of the driver, just make sure that it is not fully covered.
  
 method #2 is to use heat-shrink tubing (HST from here on) instead of AT, The HST has much thinner walls and you can easily fit 2 of them together over the audio ports. Attach the HST using UV gel as noted above. 
  
 There are 2 down sides of using HST. One is that it has a slightly smaller internal diameter and it will be nearly impossible to fit a damper into the tubing if you decide you want to tune the sound further after assembly. The other is that the HST is less bendable then AT and if you bend it to much it will collapse at the bend, completely blocking the sound, AT will do the same thing but you can bend it further before that happens.
  
 It is possible to attach the 2 types of tubing together if you want to make a mix of the two methods because the OD of the smallest HST is about the same as the ID of standard AT but jest keep in mind that the HST is more flimsy than AT and it will tend to bend first resulting in the tubing claps as noted above. 
  
 Good luck and have fun.


----------



## Dan Jarros

Thanks again CMOS. It seems your experience with materials is the same as mine. For me, I think if the drivers had much longer ports that easily accepted AT with minimal adhesive and hada ribbed design like in beer tubing connectors all this stupidity would go away.
 Also I would like a 2 prong male/ female coupler for the cord/IEM that had a threaded lock like old school tube mics. You plug them in and then lock them down and forget it.


----------



## CMOS1138

dan jarros said:


> Thanks again CMOS. It seems your experience with materials is the same as mine. For me, I think if the drivers had much longer ports that easily accepted AT with minimal adhesive and hada ribbed design like in beer tubing connectors all this stupidity would go away.
> Also I would like a 2 prong male/ female coupler for the cord/IEM that had a threaded lock like old school tube mics. You plug them in and then lock them down and forget it.


 
 I think the JH audio Roxanne uses a threaded cable connector but I don't know of a source to buy the connection parts.


----------



## tsn141

.


----------



## Dan Jarros

Yea. I like the heaviness of those connectors.


----------



## Dan Jarros

So....When you use lots of drivers inside a shell do you just not use any individual tubing and let the drivers play into the shell? Those Roxanne IEMs are 12 driver. How does all the sound get to the ear hole?


----------



## MuZo2

dan jarros said:


> So....When you use lots of drivers inside a shell do you just not use any individual tubing and let the drivers play into the shell? Those Roxanne IEMs are 12 driver. How does all the sound get to the ear hole?


 

 12driver can be 6 dual drivers.Some dual drivers are combined on one tube.


----------



## CMOS1138

6 tubes is still a lot to fit into an ear canal. If I was going to try and build something like that I would use 3 sound ports in the canal section and combine the tubes inside the shell before they get to the ear canal. I have no plans to attempt this.


----------



## CMOS1138

tsn141 said:


> How do you color the shells; which type of dye used?


 
  
 My method is a bid different than most I think. I was not able to track down an acceptable dye source and so I make clear shells first, and sand them down to remove any rough edges and get a reasonable smooth surface. Next I paint the shells with a thin coat of nail polish, I picked nail polish because there is an infinite selection of colors, it dries reasonably fast, and it comes with a handy little brush. After the nail polish is dry I apply a topcoat layer of acrylic and cure with UV. the final topcoat layer gives me a nice smooth and shiny finish that is very durable.


----------



## SilverEars

What are the benefits to multiple bore outlets?  What is the benefits to 3 outlets over 2 for example?  TF10 had 2 outlets for 2-way, and were 3 outlets started for 3-ways for any particular reason?


----------



## shakur1996

Roxanne has three quad proprietary Sonion and Knowles drivers, this is a 3 design with 3 soundtubes.


----------



## Negataros

cmos1138 said:


> My method is a bid different than most I think. I was not able to track down an acceptable dye source and so I make clear shells first, and sand them down to remove any rough edges and get a reasonable smooth surface. Next I paint the shells with a thin coat of nail polish, I picked nail polish because there is an infinite selection of colors, it dries reasonably fast, and it comes with a handy little brush. After the nail polish is dry I apply a topcoat layer of acrylic and cure with UV. the final topcoat layer gives me a nice smooth and shiny finish that is very durable.


 



 Hey there, was wondering if you have any pictures of your finished product with the method you just explained? seems pretty interesting


----------



## CMOS1138

These are 2 of the sets that I have built using GK series drivers.


----------



## Dan Jarros

Nice job CMOS. That looks exactly like what I hoped to be able to do when I started my designs.So these are your UV shells? Really shiny work. Now that I see them, just some basic questions:
  
 UV gel cured in a clear negative? Knox gelatin or other?
  
 Dremel cut the top ring off for the back plate?
  
 Sanded with fine (400-600 grit) sandpaper?
  
 Clear style acrylic nail polish then UV gel over that?
  
  
 Thanks for raising the bar.
 DJ


----------



## CMOS1138

dan jarros said:


> "UV gel cured in a clear negative? Knox gelatin or other? "
> 
> I use Knox gelatin since it is easy to obtain and cheep. I like your idea of using ballistic gelatin since it would be clearer, has that worked out well with repeated usage? any degradation of the clarity over time?
> 
> ...


----------



## Shiikamaru

Hi guys, 
  
 running into some problems making the shell. i just made the shell using uv acrylic but once it cures, the outer layer of it is sticky all over. i have lp cleaner from egger which i believe is used to clear the greasy/sticky layer. how do i use the lp cleaner? do i dip the whole shell in it and put it back to cure? also i dipped my  impression in wax and while taking it out of the mould, the wax flakes inside the mould. how do i go about clearing it? below is the shell. its in very bad shape at the moment. i tried putting it into my ear and its quite uncomfortable. anybody got any tutorials on cutting and shaping the impression?
  
  
  


  
 another thing, i just tested my ci 22955 with 1.5mm id tubings and its loose. how do you guys fix the tubing to the ba? 
  
 help much appreciated.


----------



## CMOS1138

Many of the issues you are having have been talked about recently on this forum. I know there are a lot of posts to read through but It is a great education for anyone wanting to make DIY IEM's
  
 The sticky residue is caused by uncured acrylic, you can either wipe it off with alcohol (or the cleansing product you mentioned) and a lint free cloth, or you can put the shell back under the UV light until it is fully cured. I let my shells sit for 20 to 30 minutes under a strong UV light to fully cure and it may take even longer depending on the light and the acrylic.
  
 It is difficult for someone else to tell you why the shell is uncomfortable, you need to think about it and identify for yourself exactly what part is not fitting correctly. You will probably have to do some sanding or grinding with a dremel once you identify what is causing the pain. For me, if the ear canal section is to long, I get extreme headaches and feel sick but you may have some other issue. Just looking at the pictures I can see some sharp edges that you need to grind down and sand smooth.
  
 For tube attachment, please see the last few pages of this thread.


----------



## MuZo2

What DTEC are you guys using?
 Also is HODTEC similar to Sonion 3700 or 3300?


----------



## Negataros

Does anyone have methods to getting custom art onto the face plates?

My idea is to print out the design on photo paper cut it out to the face plate and apply clear acrylic over and leave it to cure


----------



## kaixax555

negataros said:


> Does anyone have methods to getting custom art onto the face plates?
> 
> My idea is to print out the design on photo paper cut it out to the face plate and apply clear acrylic over and leave it to cure




If I am not wrong Lear printed on cellophane paper and sandwiched it between the body and the faceplates


----------



## CMOS1138

muzo2 said:


> What DTEC are you guys using?
> Also is HODTEC similar to Sonion 3700 or 3300?


 
 I used DTEC-30008-000 for my quad but that was because it was the only one in stock at Mouser.


----------



## CMOS1138

negataros said:


> Does anyone have methods to getting custom art onto the face plates?
> 
> My idea is to print out the design on photo paper cut it out to the face plate and apply clear acrylic over and leave it to cure


 
 You will probably be successful with that method but ink jet printer inks have a tendency to fade in UV light, you may notice some degradation after curing and it may also fade over time.


----------



## MuZo2

Can DTEC 30265  used?


----------



## CMOS1138

I suspect that the difference between the various DTEC versions is mostly about the position of the sound port, the number of solder pads on the back, and impedance.


----------



## CMOS1138

I re-shelled my quad driver set today and I apparently killed one side but for the life of me I cant figure out how. The right side does still play sound but it is at an extremely low volume and I can only hear it when my player is cranked to maximum. Has anyone else had this happen to them?  This set is using the knowles GQ and DTEC drivers both on independent sound ports. I can't figure out what could have happened that would kill the volume on both drivers. Is it possible that I created a short circuit somewhere and the drivers are still good?
  
 Edit
  
 I cut into the shell and found out that yes, I had created a short, drivers are still good but now I need to build a new shell for that side.


----------



## soltenebrum

Hey guys! How would Knowles RAB-32257 work for bass? Also would it be any good for mids?


----------



## piotrus-g

soltenebrum said:


> Hey guys! How would Knowles RAB-32257 work for bass? Also would it be any good for mids?


 for a single armature probably will work, for multi-driver you have better choices out there


----------



## Xymordos

piotrus-g said:


> for a single armature probably will work, for multi-driver you have better choices out there


 
  
 Even for mids? What about RAB-31761?


----------



## piotrus-g

xymordos said:


> Even for mids? What about RAB-31761?


 

 I do have some RAB drivers but I've never heard them so I cannot really say it's just that those drivers are relatively small. it's like 1/4th of DTEC or 1/7th of CI in size - you can really use those bigger drivers and get better overall response in multi-armature set up. Of course you can use 2xRAB and some TWFK or other from FK or ED and get very space-efficient and possibly good sounding design.


----------



## soltenebrum

I've been reading the thread and couldn't find a compact, summarized (maybe step by step) guide (or a summary in similar form). Anyone keen on that? Considering the common trend around here, it's kinda weird nobody bothered with that. Any effort towards such a source will be much appreciated. (Hopefully not only by me).
  
 This is the most compact, step by step guide I've came across; http://www.instructables.com/id/DIY-In-Ear-Monitors/
 Don't know if the link is already shared and cherished, resharing wouldn't hurt I guess.


----------



## Q Mass

I've been searching the thread (and the rest of the internet) for a source of skin safe silicone for DIY CIEM's that doesn't require the purchase of huge amounts of expensive product.
  
 Without success 
  
 Maybe I've missed mention of this here?
 If anyone can advise I'd be very grateful.


----------



## Silverprout

UV curing ?
 Transparent, opaque ?
 ...


----------



## Q Mass

I'm easy regarding transparent or opaque.
 And I'll happily use UV if needs be, but if there's a choice I'd maybe prefer either catalyst cured, or a simple air cure.
 But I confess that I don't even know what's out there.
 Do you know of any that are available in small(ish) amounts?
  
 I would want skin safe though!


----------



## Silverprout

q mass said:


> I'm easy regarding transparent or opaque.
> And I'll happily use UV if needs be, but if there's a choice I'd maybe prefer either catalyst cured, or a simple air cure.
> But I confess that I don't even know what's out there.
> Do you know of any that are available in small(ish) amounts?
> ...


 
  
 http://en.zhermack.com/Clinical/Clinical/Addition_Silicones/Elite_HD/C203040.kl


----------



## MuZo2

silverprout said:


> http://en.zhermack.com/Clinical/Clinical/Addition_Silicones/Elite_HD/C203040.kl


 

 I think thats similar material like what you would use for ear impressions.What QMass  needs is soft silicone, I dont think it easily accessible like UV curing.


----------



## Silverprout

muzo2 said:


> I think thats similar material like what you would use for ear impressions.What QMass  needs is soft silicone, I dont think it easily accessible like UV curing.


 
 http://www.denbraven.fr/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=47&category_id=17&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=2


----------



## CMOS1138

silverprout said:


> http://www.denbraven.fr/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=47&category_id=17&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=2


 
  
 I would not recommend the use of any acetic cure silicon such as that for IEM construction, they are far from skin safe and rely on moisture in the air for curing and will therefor not fully cure if used in a thick enough application to make an IEM. 
  
 Other people have attempted to use similar products in the past with less than desirable results.
  
 Perhaps piotrus-g can comment on what type of silicone is appropriate for IEM construction? I believe that he uses silicone for his products.


----------



## Silverprout

cmos1138 said:


> I would not recommend the use of any acetic cure silicon such as that for IEM construction, they are far from skin safe and rely on moisture in the air for curing and will therefor not fully cure if used in a thick enough application to make an IEM.
> 
> Other people have attempted to use similar products in the past with less than desirable results.
> 
> Perhaps piotrus-g can comment on what type of silicone is appropriate for IEM construction? I believe that he uses silicone for his products.


 
 http://fr.zhermack.com/Laboratoire/Silicones/Rebasages_souples/C700110.kl


----------



## MuZo2

There are products from Dreve and Egger  but they only sell to labs. I contacted Egger and asked if I would be able to buy some small amount, but they said it needs lab equipment and safety measures.


----------



## Silverprout

You probably have to contact an audiologist...


----------



## MuZo2

silverprout said:


> You probably have to contact an audiologist...


 

 Are you one? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  or dentist?


----------



## Silverprout

No, no.


----------



## Silverprout

ISO10993 certified UV curing 25SH soft high grade silicone... and very cheap.
 It's the industial line, anyone can buy it.
 Loctite 5248.
 Enjoy.


----------



## MrKommander

I was planning to make my own CIEM and i know that there are no really dedicated tweeter.... but why is the TWFK sp popular for the treble ? I mean the RAB-32033 goes up to 11,8 kHz amd the TWFK(30017-000) only reaches 6,5 kHz. And also human hear up to 20kHz ( i know that you lose some of the ability to hear really up to the 20 kHz ), what is with the rest of the frequenzies O.o ? Are they not necessary for music ? 
Sincerely Mr.Kommander


----------



## Silverprout

mrkommander said:


> I was planning to make my own CIEM and i know that there are no really dedicated tweeter.... but why is the TWFK sp popular for the treble ? I mean the RAB-32033 goes up to 11,8 kHz amd the TWFK(30017-000) only reaches 6,5 kHz. And also human hear up to 20kHz ( i know that you lose some of the ability to hear really up to the 20 kHz ), what is with the rest of the frequenzies O.o ? Are they not necessary for music ?
> Sincerely Mr.Kommander


----------



## CMOS1138

mrkommander said:


> I was planning to make my own CIEM and i know that there are no really dedicated tweeter.... but why is the TWFK sp popular for the treble ? I mean the RAB-32033 goes up to 11,8 kHz amd the TWFK(30017-000) only reaches 6,5 kHz. And also human hear up to 20kHz ( i know that you lose some of the ability to hear really up to the 20 kHz ), what is with the rest of the frequenzies O.o ? Are they not necessary for music ?
> Sincerely Mr.Kommander


 
 The RAB series drivers are a new product line from Knowles and so far, no one posting to this discussion has had any experience with them. If you decide to try them out, please let us know about your results.


----------



## MrKommander

Silverprout thank you i was looking for something similiar but couldn't find anythong useful 
CMOS1138 sure i will try them out but i'm still at the start of the project and collecting all infos needed so that as few problems as possible show up 
And sorry in advance for many question


----------



## Richard Ray

Share the achievements, tuning is an interesting process. Each style is tangled, someone like! Some people don't like


----------



## piotrus-g

richard ray said:


> Share the achievements, tuning is an interesting process. Each style is tangled, someone like! Some people don't like


 
 Not to be rude or anything but check MOT rules...


----------



## FARfromHOME

I'm thinking of ordering Sonion drivers..


Still 5 drivers minimum of any type? 20 all together?


If so, which ones are worth ordering?


Planning to mix them with Knowles.

Looking for that Sonion-only sound...


----------



## FARfromHOME

No one?


----------



## MuZo2

farfromhome said:


> I'm thinking of ordering Sonion drivers..
> Still 5 drivers minimum of any type? 20 all together?
> If so, which ones are worth ordering?
> Planning to mix them with Knowles.
> ...


 
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/604851/chart-balanced-armature-based-in-ear-monitors-technical-characteristics
 See above list and then you can do some research on your own and order.


----------



## bonebrain

Long time lurker,
  
   Ok so I have been a long time lurker here and gathered a lot of information by reading the entire thread.  What I have not gotten is a solid answer as to where people are getting their UV cured material from.  Can anyone please share a link to a source that can supply in the US?
  
 Thanks


----------



## MuZo2

Egger, Dreve dont ship to individuals. Egger UV can be found on taobao  but they dont ship due to restrictions from shipping companies.
 Some of people here used UV gel used for nails. I am not sure how safe it is for ears.


----------



## Silverprout

muzo2 said:


> Egger, Dreve dont ship to individuals. Egger UV can be found on taobao  but they dont ship due to restrictions from shipping companies.
> Some of people here used UV gel used for nails. I am not sure how safe it is for ears.


 
  
 UV gel used for nails = toxic
  
 Medical grade USP Class VI, ISO 10993-5 and FDA compliance :
 http://www.newark.com/loctite/36484/loctite-3921-light-cure-25ml/dp/22M2725


----------



## CMOS1138

silverprout said:


> UV gel used for nails = toxic
> 
> Medical grade USP Class VI, ISO 10993-5 and FDA compliance :
> http://www.newark.com/loctite/36484/loctite-3921-light-cure-25ml/dp/22M2725


 
 The item you linked to clearly states hazardous item. 
  
 UV gel of any kind is not meant to be applied to your skin or to ingest in its liquid form. Once it is cured, it should be safe and inert, including the nail gel.


----------



## Silverprout

cmos1138 said:


> The item you linked to clearly states hazardous item.
> 
> UV gel of any kind is not meant to be applied to your skin or to ingest in its liquid form. Once it is cured, it should be safe and inert, including the nail gel.


 
  
 Ultimate ears uses the loctite 3675 in their labs, the 3972 is the same material with the same certifications (a little bit more viscous).
  
 PS : The 3972 is intended for contact with blood


----------



## MuZo2

Loctite brochure for hearing aid
 http://www.henkelna.com/us/content_data/LT3380_Resinaid_Brochure.pdf


----------



## CMOS1138

I am really enjoying my latest build. I changed my single driver design from the SR series driver (decent for the price) over to the ED-29689-000. It reminds me a lot of the etymotics sound but with a bit more life. It is also surprisingly forgiving of lower quality recordings. It is my only build that I can enjoy listening to pandora with because my multi driver IEMS don't like low bit rate audio. I am now very curious to find out if the new RAB drivers can match up to this but it is going to be a while before I experiment again.


----------



## Silverprout

muzo2 said:


> Loctite brochure for hearing aid
> http://www.henkelna.com/us/content_data/LT3380_Resinaid_Brochure.pdf


 
 Thanks !


----------



## Silverprout

cmos1138 said:


> I am really enjoying my latest build. I changed my single driver design from the SR series driver (decent for the price) over to the ED-29689-000. It reminds me a lot of the etymotics sound but with a bit more life. It is also surprisingly forgiving of lower quality recordings. It is my only build that I can enjoy listening to pandora with because my multi driver IEMS don't like low bit rate audio. I am now very curious to find out if the new RAB drivers can match up to this but it is going to be a while before I experiment again.


 

 Could you add some photos please ?


----------



## CMOS1138

silverprout said:


> Could you add some photos please ?


 
 of the ED driver? I didn't take any photos during construction but mouser has an image here


----------



## MuZo2

I guess he meant of the CIEM. Which filter did you use? Did you add any resistor or cap?


----------



## Silverprout

It's more fun with some photos !


----------



## MuZo2

How do you attach the tubing to driver?


----------



## Silverprout

muzo2 said:


> How do you attach the tubing to driver?


 
 A very little quantity of cyanoacrylate glue on the end of the tube (it cures within 5 sec)
 Then, i put a joint of UV acrylic gel for a perfect seal.


----------



## Silverprout

A very little quantity of cyanoacrylate glue on the end of the tube (it cures within 5 sec)

  
 Then, i put a joint of UV acrylic gel for a perfect seal.


----------



## MuZo2

Are you making Hybrid? what dynamic drivers are those in pic?


----------



## Silverprout

Yes !
  
 Big 13mm dynamic driver with ED29689.


----------



## MuZo2

Nice, so you using only acoustic crossover?


----------



## Silverprout

muzo2 said:


> Nice, so you using only acoustic crossover?


 
  
 I'm still waiting for CMS X7R ceramic cap... my COG ceramic caps are too big and i need a large rear chamber.


----------



## piotrus-g

silverprout said:


> A very little quantity of cyanoacrylate glue on the end of the tube (it cures within 5 sec)
> 
> 
> Then, i put a joint of UV acrylic gel for a perfect seal.


 
 This is very clever!


----------



## Silverprout

piotrus-g said:


> This is very clever!


 

 Thanks !
  
 The idea is coming from a previous model based on a single 13mm driver.
 The molding of the canals was a nightmare and the result was a little bit strange !


----------



## Silverprout

I finally decided to use COG SMD caps...
  


  

  
_Liquidambar_ time


----------



## acain

Hi Silverprout what did you use to make the shells is it acrylic? They look great!!!


----------



## Silverprout

acain said:


> Hi Silverprout what did you use to make the shells is it acrylic? They look great!!!


 

 Hi,
 Thanks, my shells are not as perfect as those of piotrus-g but i do my best... each shell is a long and precise manual work.
 Yes, it's acrylic, i finished them this morning !
  






 3 complete days of work (including XO adjustements)


----------



## piotrus-g

Haha, mate, my acrylic shells are no good. I don't know what it is but i think acrylic don't like me


----------



## MuZo2

silverprout said:


>


 
 Great, looks very professional, how do they sound?


----------



## Silverprout

piotrus-g said:


> Haha, mate, my acrylic shells are no good. I don't know what it is but i think acrylic don't like me


 
 Sorry, it was a compliment but my english is not perfect


----------



## MuZo2

*piotrus *uses soft silicone and not acrylic.


----------



## Silverprout

muzo2 said:


> Great, looks very professional, how do they sound?


 
 Thanks a lot !
  
 Warm, warm and warm 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Totaly made for my taste... i will not be objective.
  
 Very big soundstage, the ability to produce full bodied, deep and impactful low mids / bass and subass.
*But the major improvement is that it sound a lot more natural to my ears.*


----------



## Silverprout

muzo2 said:


> *piotrus *uses soft silicone and not acrylic.


 
  
 I was thinking that he probably used acrylic thin shells as a mould in his process !
 I'm confused...


----------



## MuZo2

Did you also use acrylic on wood.


----------



## piotrus-g

silverprout said:


> Sorry, it was a compliment but my english is not perfect


 
 Oh yeah I totally got that it's just that I don't work with acrylic  I made few acrylic shells in my life but I wasn't happy with the outcome that's why I do silicone only right now.


----------



## MuZo2

piotrus-g said:


> Oh yeah I totally got that it's just that I don't work with acrylic  I made few acrylic shells in my life but I wasn't happy with the outcome that's why I do silicone only right now.



What sh hardness silicone is used for ciem? 30/40/60


----------



## piotrus-g

40


----------



## MIke M

I use 30 for most, 40 on a few


----------



## Silverprout

muzo2 said:


> Did you also use acrylic on wood.


 

 Yes


----------



## Silverprout

piotrus-g said:


> Oh yeah I totally got that it's just that I don't work with acrylic  I made few acrylic shells in my life but I wasn't happy with the outcome that's why I do silicone only right now.


 
 it is more difficult to manufacture !


----------



## kaixax555

Wow i like the results haha

They look wonderful


----------



## Silverprout

kaixax555 said:


> Wow i like the results haha
> 
> They look wonderful


 

 Thanks 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 The sound is not good... too much lows, the dynamic driver approximately 10dB louder than the 29689 :eek:
  
 I must open them to modify the XO !
  
 PS : *And improve isolation with a totally sealed enclosure.*


----------



## MIke M

Sealing it will lower your bass. You can also try a resitor with the dd. also a big problem with hybrids is phase canceling, I'd imagine that the ed should be loud enough. I never dealt with 13 but I've done a lot with 16's. Nice work btw.


----------



## Silverprout

Thanks 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 The DD is much louder than the ED, i'm very surprised...i must LPAD the DD 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 So, i'm wrong with this design, phase canceling is just one of my countless problems.
  
 I will use the ED 29689 in full range configuration and the DD only for the lowest octaves.


----------



## MIke M

I wouldn't say you are wrong with the design at all. Without test equipment it will be more difficult to see what is going on and how to remedy it but don't give up on it. Make small and listen closely. It's crazy how much a lil tweak here or there can turn a big dip in the highs into a peak on hybrid designs.


----------



## Xymordos

Wow a really nice looking hybrid! Wouldn't adding another 29689 solve the issue though? Did you limit the dynamic driver to bass frequencies only through the crossover? I'd think the RAB drivers sound nice or Unique Melody wouldn't be using them.
  
 Can get my hands on some GR31587 to try out as some mid range drivers. Hope they sound nice 
  
 Did you guys see the Sony custom? Interesting how it uses a Sonion 2356 instead of its own BA drivers


----------



## MuZo2

mike m said:


> I wouldn't say you are wrong with the design at all. Without test equipment it will be more difficult to see what is going on and how to remedy it but don't give up on it. Make small and listen closely. It's crazy how much a lil tweak here or there can turn a big dip in the highs into a peak on hybrid designs.


 

 Just noticed that Mike is creator of first hybrid silicone ciem which uses ED and 10mm Dynamic driver.


----------



## Silverprout

muzo2 said:


> Just noticed that Mike is creator of first hybrid silicone ciem which uses ED and 10mm Dynamic driver.


 
 Awesome !


----------



## Silverprout

xymordos said:


> Wow a really nice looking hybrid! Wouldn't adding another 29689 solve the issue though? Did you limit the dynamic driver to bass frequencies only through the crossover? I'd think the RAB drivers sound nice or Unique Melody wouldn't be using them.
> 
> Can get my hands on some GR31587 to try out as some mid range drivers. Hope they sound nice
> 
> Did you guys see the Sony custom? Interesting how it uses a Sonion 2356 instead of its own BA drivers


 
  
 I will only gain 3dB with two 29689.
 Sony... 2600$ 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
 Sonion 2356 = 20$
 Sony dynamic driver = 2000$


----------



## Silverprout

mike m said:


> I wouldn't say you are wrong with the design at all. Without test equipment it will be more difficult to see what is going on and how to remedy it but don't give up on it. Make small and listen closely. It's crazy how much a lil tweak here or there can turn a big dip in the highs into a peak on hybrid designs.


 
  
 Thanks,
 At first i would try to adjust levels !


----------



## MuZo2

whats the variable stuff?


----------



## MuZo2

Silverprout make yourself a  diy  measurement stuff. You can easily build one using panasonic mic.


----------



## piotrus-g

silverprout said:


> I will only gain 3dB with two 29689.


 
 6dB actually


----------



## Silverprout

muzo2 said:


> whats the variable stuff?


 
 adjustable resistors


----------



## Silverprout

muzo2 said:


> Silverprout make yourself a  diy  measurement stuff. You can easily build one using panasonic mic.


 
 It's more fun to imagine


----------



## Silverprout

piotrus-g said:


> 6dB actually


 

 Ok thx.


----------



## briancortez2112

What type of wire are you guys using for wiring the drivers and where to buy it, i cant find anything good to use besides solid magnet wire and that does not make a good joint..??


----------



## Silverprout

briancortez2112 said:


> What type of wire are you guys using for wiring the drivers and where to buy it, i cant find anything good to use besides solid magnet wire and that does not make a good joint..??


 
 You can find them in the earbuds cables.
 Mine are coming from old AKG K317 earbuds.
  
 You can also use the RG178 Inner conductor (silver and PTFE)


----------



## piotrus-g

silverprout said:


> You can find them in the earbuds cables.
> Mine are coming from old AKG K317 earbuds.
> 
> You can also use the RG178 Inner conductor (silver and PTFE)


 
 Damn that's neat picture 
  
 BTW. looks like fitting MMCX is soooo much easier than 2pin connector.


----------



## Silverprout

piotrus-g said:


> Damn that's neat picture
> 
> BTW. looks like fitting MMCX is soooo much easier than 2pin connector.


 

 Thanks, i will never do it again... PTFE wires are too stiff !

  
 Now the 13mm dynamic driver and ED 29689 CIEMS are ready for OX adjustments... thanks to MMCX connectors


----------



## acain

Hey silverprout nice job they look like you bought them.


----------



## MIke M

Now the 13mm dynamic driver and ED 29689 CIEMS are ready for OX adjustments... thanks to MMCX connectors 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  
 Pretty clever, thats a pretty dern good way to A/B test in your ear


----------



## Silverprout

acain said:


> Hey silverprout nice job they look like you bought them.


 
  
 Thanks, my first ones were not as beautiful...


----------



## Silverprout

mike m said:


> Pretty clever, thats a pretty dern good way to A/B test in your ear


 
  
  
 Thanks 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 First idea :
 ED29689 with a green filter at 8mm into a 10mm Ø1.5mm tubing and 30ohm resistor 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 The dynamic driver is just here for bass and sub !


----------



## acain

Is that 2 places that you can connect your headphone wire?


----------



## Silverprout

acain said:


> Is that 2 places that you can connect your headphone wire?


 

 Yes, The dynamic driver is connected directly to the faceplate connector and the ED29689 is connected to the regular connector.
 ... to externalize the XO filter.
  
 I will try to adjust the Dynamic driver to add a slight bass body and solid tight sub to the ED29689 (in full range configuration)


----------



## briancortez2112

Thanks ALOT!


----------



## acain

Everyone should post there driver setup and there crossover design. A lot of people ask about crossover information. I know it varies but it would help others for some starting points.


----------



## CMOS1138

piotrus-g said:


> Damn that's neat picture
> 
> BTW. looks like fitting MMCX is soooo much easier than 2pin connector.


 
  
 The MMCX connector has its own set of challenges but I think the advantages are worth it, I have switched over to MMCX for my last few builds and I plan to keep using it.
  
 The 2 issues that you need to plan for when using MMCX are anchor strength and clearance for the cable connector end. 
  
 The connecter takes considerable force to connect and disconnect and on my first attempt at using MMCX I didn't have it attached firmly enough on the inside of the shell, I ended up pushing the connectors into the shell when I attached the cable. I had to drill small holes in the shell so that I could add more acrylic around the connector to act as a strong attachment point.
  
 The other issue is that you have to make sure that there is enough clearance around the connector for the cable to fully attach, you can achieve this by having the connector stick out from the shell a little ways but depending on what cable you are using, this may not look nice, my current method is to have the connector protrude slightly and then build up the acrylic around the connector in order to hide it when the cable is attached.


----------



## MuZo2

Silverprout - What do you use as UV chamber and what is curing time?


----------



## Silverprout

muzo2 said:


> Silverprout - What do you use as UV chamber and what is curing time?


 

 192UV led DIY chamber, 10sec.


----------



## MuZo2

Cool


----------



## Silverprout

muzo2 said:


> Cool


 

 Looooooonng job !


----------



## acain

That is one crazy looking curing box it looks like it belongs on the star trek enterprise. Nice work


----------



## Silverprout

acain said:


> That is one crazy looking curing box it looks like it belongs on the star trek enterprise. Nice work


 

 Thanks 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 The space CIEMS are ready for the first tests !


----------



## MuZo2

If they have two or more connectors they would surely be alien ciems


----------



## MIke M

You're not a diy'er, you're a mad scientist, impressive


----------



## Xymordos

Wow those cables! Hope you fix the bass this time


----------



## piotrus-g

silverprout said:


> Thanks
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I think it's ready for a finial fight with predator


----------



## MuZo2

I am wondering if external xo will be enough or it needs playing with acoustic filter placement and tube size/dia.


----------



## CMOS1138

Silverprout, I belive your device may have captured the sun. XD


----------



## Xymordos

If I have a first order resistor-capacitor low pass filter, how should it be wired in comparison to the other drivers, say a tweeter with a first order high pass filter?


----------



## piotrus-g

xymordos said:


> If I have a first order resistor-capacitor low pass filter, how should it be wired in comparison to the other drivers, say a tweeter with a first order high pass filter?


 
 Depends on the crossover point.
 Please provide values and driver model for tweeter if you are connecting it only with cap.


----------



## Silverprout

ahrrr... the phase cancellation kills me !
 I must build a new prototype.


----------



## piotrus-g

silverprout said:


> ahrrr... the phase cancellation kills me !
> I must build a new prototype.


 
 What phase cancellation?! measurement looks perfect


----------



## Xymordos

The graph...looks fine? o.O
  
 Also I didn't decide on the drivers yet, but I figured that there was a way to use that arctan phase formula to work this out?


----------



## MuZo2

The graph looks incorrect.


----------



## piotrus-g

muzo2 said:


> The graph looks incorrect.


 

 explain


----------



## Silverprout

AMHA, there is a very subtile phase cancellation in the lows.
 The reponse of the ciem is lower than the dynamic driver alone...


----------



## MuZo2

piotrus-g said:


> explain


 
 Should it look something like this?


----------



## piotrus-g

silverprout said:


> AMHA, there is a very subtile phase cancellation in the lows.
> The reponse of the ciem is lower than the dynamic driver alone...


 
 It's not phase cancelling. It's actually all in phase, phases are slightly shifted but they are not canceling.


muzo2 said:


> Should it look something like this?


 
 Check again, the first peak is around 2,5kHz which is perfect for natural sound signature.


----------



## tranhieu

muzo2 said:


> Should it look something like this?


 
 eh... no... You're summing 2 logarithms here.


----------



## MuZo2

ah ok


----------



## piotrus-g

tranhieu said:


> eh... no... You're summing 2 logarithms here.


 
 oh, now I understand Muzo2's question lol


----------



## Silverprout

Thanks for your remarks and answers 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 I want perfect phase alignment for the 20-1000 Hz region...
 And to dig the 1000 Hz-10000 Hz region by -10dB for a perfect matching... to reach my point of mind satisfaction !


----------



## piotrus-g

silverprout said:


> Thanks for your remarks and answers
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Want to hear the truth or encouragement?


----------



## Xymordos

piotrus-g said:


> Want to hear the truth or encouragement?


 
 LOL
  
 ...that sounds actually quite depressing


----------



## acain

Hi I am new to this thread I currently have the ED-29689 and the CI. Are resistors and a cap really necessary? I read threw the whole forum a lot to take in and I must have gone back through a dozen times. Its very inspiring. The ED would get a resistor and the CI would get the cap? Thanks in advance for any replies. And what value resistor and cap?


----------



## tranhieu

piotrus-g said:


> Want to hear the truth or encouragement?


 
 Leave him be. I wanna hear the result of his experiment 


acain said:


> Hi I am new to this thread I currently have the ED-29689 and the CI. Are resistors and a cap really necessary? I read threw the whole forum a lot to take in and I must have gone back through a dozen times. Its very inspiring. The ED would get a resistor and the CI would get the cap? Thanks in advance for any replies. And what value resistor and cap?


 
 A low pass is no need. If it were me I would go with a 10-30 ohms damping resistor for the yellow filtered CI + a 0.68uf cap for the ED, the value of the resistor depends on how bassy you want it to be. Personally for someone who listens to Jpop (which is very mic & treble oriented) like me, 40 is ideal.
  
 On the ED you might also want to add a grey filter in the case its upper midrange is too upfront. Plus due to the quarter wavelength resonance, the further away from the driver the filter is, the more high frequencies it dampens and thus, 2-3mm would be enough to gently bring down the 4-5khz peak. That way the sound signature would be quite mid-high centric, with an ample base.
  
 Oh yeah, remember wire both driver in phase acoustically, otherwise you'd get a very nasty dip in the mid region.
  
 The gist of tuning is to use as few passive components as possible. You might not believe it but the TG334 only has 1 cap and that's it


----------



## acain

Thank you very much for the info everyone on this site is so helpful.  I took a course small electronics 20 yrs ago and cant remember anything but it was mostly computers and crossovers just scare me.  I am a Tool and Die maker by trade. I can build anything I can solder really well I work urethane casings for 8years, but electronics not so good at.  If you had to compare the sound signature of these 2 drivers together to a universal monitor what would it compare?


----------



## tranhieu

acain said:


> Thank you very much for the info everyone on this site is so helpful.  I took a course small electronics 20 yrs ago and cant remember anything but it was mostly computers and crossovers just scare me.  I am a Tool and Die maker by trade. I can build anything I can solder really well I work urethane casings for 8years, but electronics not so good at.  If you had to compare the sound signature of these 2 drivers together to a universal monitor what would it compare?


 
 The design I mentioned earlier is for custom shells. I wouldn't use it as a universal design since the treble would be very sibilant due to ear canal resonance.


----------



## acain

I am going to give it a try after reading this whole thread.  I have just about everything I just have to buy some more UV acrylic. A supplier of hearing aid resins was nice enough to send me a sample of UV acrylic before I purchased a larger amount.  I have found crystal clear 2 part silicone for the UV light to penetrate easily. I haven't even made a pair yet and my 13yr old daughter wants me to make her a pair already. She actually took my Shure SE315s after she compared them to her Monster earbuds.  Thanks to everyone who posted great information to inspire me to this new wallet draining hobby. I will post pictures when I have something that wont embarrass me to much.


----------



## briancortez2112

What clear mold making material are you guys using to create the shells for uv acrylic, does anyone know what the Big companies use for this? I have been using gelatin, but I want to try something else that does not degrade over time!??


----------



## piotrus-g

xymordos said:


> LOL
> 
> ...that sounds actually quite depressing


 
 It depends lol.
 Sometimes when you accept the reality then it's easier to work/live 
  
 Complete phase alignment is impossible to achieve when you use crossovers. However take f.e. 200Hz and lower freq. when the time gap is relatively wider - 200Hz wave has  length of 1,7m (67") correcting it using only acoustical termination is pretty impossible (you'd need very long tube). correcting it using electrical components is possible but not easy.
 The whole point is that it's not extremely essential to do it, because if you get phase aligned at 200Hz you won't get it on 1kHz. where the problem would be much more noticable


----------



## Xymordos

I see, but does phase alignment really affect the sound that much? I mean as long as frequency bands are not completely out of phase it should still sound coherent enough right? Also, usually the less components you use in a crossover the more detailed the sound is, which is why most low pass filters are acoustic. But can high pass filters not be acoustically done? (And I hear that a capacitor high pass filter makes the sound more detailed...)


----------



## piotrus-g

xymordos said:


> I see, but does phase alignment really affect the sound that much? I mean as long as frequency bands are not completely out of phase it should still sound coherent enough right? Also, usually the less components you use in a crossover the more detailed the sound is, which is why most low pass filters are acoustic. But can high pass filters not be acoustically done?


 
 As long as time alignment of phase is not so far away it doesn't really matter that much.


> But can high pass filters not be acoustically done?


 
 They can, but I cannot share anything about it.


----------



## Silverprout

piotrus-g said:


> Want to hear the truth or encouragement?


 
 You are right... but i can't remove the harsh spike at 7K.


----------



## piotrus-g

silverprout said:


> You are right... but i can't remove the harsh spike at 7K.


 

 use bigger damper say 1500 Ohm or move driver closer to ear drum.
 Also there's a chance the peak is not at 7kHz but at 8-9 actually but because of IEM placement in the coupler (at the entrance) peak moved to lower freq. on the graph.


----------



## Silverprout

piotrus-g said:


> use bigger damper say 1500 Ohm or move driver closer to ear drum.
> Also there's a chance the peak is not at 7kHz but at 8-9 actually but because of IEM placement in the coupler (at the entrance) peak moved to lower freq. on the graph.


 

 Yes, the placement is highly critical... few millimeters can totally change the sound.
 The spikes can move by 4K only by changing the tube length and the dampers placement.
 My big DD drivers falls naturally by -12dB at only 500Hz...


----------



## tranhieu

Whether human auditory can detect phase mismatch or not is still being debated, but according to Moller we cant. The reason we are avoiding it like plague is because of them causing unnecessary dips and peaks. So as long your response matches the disffuse field curve nicely I don't see any reason for focusing on phase.



piotrus-g said:


> They can, but I cannot share anything about it.



Really?


----------



## acain

I just say this by Sleek Audio CT20 witb 20 drivers per ear i would post a picture but I only have screen shot from my phone starts at $8000


----------



## MuZo2

????
 Wasn't CT20 a April fools gag 2011


----------



## Silverprout

piotrus-g said:


> use bigger damper say 1500 Ohm or move driver closer to ear drum.
> Also there's a chance the peak is not at 7kHz but at 8-9 actually but because of IEM placement in the coupler (at the entrance) peak moved to lower freq. on the graph.


 
  
 Green, red... even yellow don't kill the peak.
 I finally got rid of the peak with this crossover


----------



## MuZo2




----------



## piotrus-g

tranhieu said:


> Whether human auditory can detect phase mismatch or not is still being debated, but according to Moller we cant. The reason we are avoiding it like plague is because of them causing unnecessary dips and peaks. So as long your response matches the disffuse field curve nicely I don't see any reason for focusing on phase.
> Really?


 
 Well if the phase canceling occurs at higher frequencies you'd be able to hear it - f.e. vocals or highs can sound "strange" or "different" although still sounding undistorted, I guess it has to do a lot with psychoacoustics. I find following:
 1. Sound with proper phase (no unwanted peaks or dips) across entire spectrum - sounds natural, detailing is good.
 2. Sound with reversed phase on lows (canceling mid bass to bring sub-bass) - sound is unsettling for me, my mind is fighting to "understand" what's going on
 3. Sound with one deep (case of many... many CI TWFK or DTEC TWFK comobs), not very noticeable, but there's small impact on final resolution of a monitor. i.e. it's more masking some of details.
 4. Sound with minor phase incoherency in the upper spectrum - typically sounds intriguing - from my experience (measurements, observation, listening and reading reviews) those are earphones that gets a lot of attention because they have something "that sounds different or they do different" than the rest of IEMs.
  
 and yes, really.


silverprout said:


> Green, red... even yellow don't kill the peak.
> I finally got rid of the peak with this crossover


 
 and? how's sound now?


----------



## Xymordos

piotrus-g said:


> 4. Sound with minor phase incoherency in the upper spectrum - typically sounds intriguing - from my experience (measurements, observation, listening and reading reviews) those are earphones that gets a lot of attention because they have something "that sounds different or they do different" than the rest of IEMs.


 
  
 Looking at phase measurements of some IEMs/CIEMs, isn't this usually the case? It seems the more upper frequencies usually are slightly phase incoherent.


----------



## piotrus-g

xymordos said:


> Looking at phase measurements of some IEMs/CIEMs, isn't this usually the case? It seems the more upper frequencies usually are slightly phase incoherent.


 
 No, not really,


----------



## tranhieu

piotrus-g said:


> Well if the phase canceling occurs at higher frequencies you'd be able to hear it - f.e. vocals or highs can sound "strange" or "different" although still sounding undistorted, I guess it has to do a lot with psychoacoustics. I find following:
> 1. Sound with proper phase (no unwanted peaks or dips) across entire spectrum - sounds natural, detailing is good.
> 2. Sound with reversed phase on lows (canceling mid bass to bring sub-bass) - sound is unsettling for me, my mind is fighting to "understand" what's going on
> 3. Sound with one deep (case of many... many CI TWFK or DTEC TWFK comobs), not very noticeable, but there's small impact on final resolution of a monitor. i.e. it's more masking some of details.
> ...


 
 Totally agree with 1,2,3. Can't say much about 4. As I said in the previous post, human auditory is more sensitive to amplitude, and thus so long as the response curve matches these days' standard, whether phase inconherency a problem or not is beyond our understanding.


----------



## acain

Can anyone recommend some drivers I currently have the ED and CI. I have to order other stuff and was thinking about getting the TWFK would this pair better then the CI with the ED?


----------



## TheoS53

Good day everyone

 I'm looking to experiment with making my own CIEMs, but I'm rather overwhelmed with all the info so was hoping I could get someone to explain the basics of the XO circuit to me. I've spent a couple of days on google now trying to get some answers, but to no avail.

 What I'm trying to figure out is what is needed to make the LP and HP filters. I know you need caps and resistors. But for the life of me cannot quite grasp how they should be wired, how I decide which values to use, and how the acoustic dampers affect it all. I've found a ton of stuff and sometimes I see that only caps or resistors are used, and sometimes a combination, but I cannot figure out when to use what. 

 All help will be greatly appreciated.


----------



## Mython

piotrus-g said:


> No, not really,


 
  
  
  
 An excellent 1500th post, Peter! LOL


----------



## acain

I found reviews on the CT20 not sure if there real or not. But it says you have to meet minimum size ear to fit all the drivers.


----------



## piotrus-g

mython said:


> An excellent 1500th post, Peter! LOL


 
 Thanks! haha


----------



## Silverprout

piotrus-g said:


> Well if the phase canceling occurs at higher frequencies you'd be able to hear it - f.e. vocals or highs can sound "strange" or "different" although still sounding undistorted, I guess it has to do a lot with psychoacoustics. I find following:
> 1. Sound with proper phase (no unwanted peaks or dips) across entire spectrum - sounds natural, detailing is good.
> 2. Sound with reversed phase on lows (canceling mid bass to bring sub-bass) - sound is unsettling for me, my mind is fighting to "understand" what's going on
> 3. Sound with one deep (case of many... many CI TWFK or DTEC TWFK comobs), not very noticeable, but there's small impact on final resolution of a monitor. i.e. it's more masking some of details.
> ...


 

 Luminous and analytic but not agressive, with a flat but very strong bass and sub.
 Sub bass goes deeper and stronger than two CI22955.


----------



## Furco

Hi all.  Long time lurker on this forum.  I've spent the last 6 weeks reading and re-reading from page 1 up to page 158.  I've got a quick question about low-pass cross overs.  First off, a high-pass x-over seems pretty basic.  Just wire a cap serially with the speaker and *poof*, immediate and complete attenuation of low frequencies based on the value of the cap.  Very nice.
  
 However, all of the experiments I tried with constructing a low-pass cross over using a resistor+cap have left me boggled.  Here's what I mean. If I choose a 300Ω resistor wired serially and 1uF cap wired parallel, as seem on 100 different web sites showing RC low pass filter diagrams, I should get a cross over at around 530Hz.  But when I check the FR curve, I see attenuation of the entire signal and I also don't get the utter and complete reduction of the high frequencies above the cut-off point.  What I'm observing is completely unlike the high pass filter.
  
 Why is that?  I can guess the the entire signal is reduced by the presence of the resistor but I'm baffled as to why the frequencies above 550Hz aren't significantly reduced.
  
 Thoughts?


----------



## piotrus-g

furco said:


> Hi all.  Long time lurker on this forum.  I've spent the last 6 weeks reading and re-reading from page 1 up to page 158.  I've got a quick question about low-pass cross overs.  First off, a high-pass x-over seems pretty basic.  Just wire a cap serially with the speaker and *poof*, immediate and complete attenuation of low frequencies based on the value of the cap.  Very nice.
> 
> However, all of the experiments I tried with constructing a low-pass cross over using a resistor+cap have left me boggled.  Here's what I mean. If I choose a 300Ω resistor wired serially and 1uF cap wired parallel, as seem on 100 different web sites showing RC low pass filter diagrams, I should get a cross over at around 530Hz.  But when I check the FR curve, I see attenuation of the entire signal and I also don't get the utter and complete reduction of the high frequencies above the cut-off point.  What I'm observing is completely unlike the high pass filter.
> 
> ...


 
 use bigger cap and lower resistor 30Ohm and 10uF to start at the same crossover point.


----------



## acain

Here is my first attempt at making my own impressions. The one on the left was that deep I tried to do myself and pulled the syringe out of my ear canal to early. The second one I had my 13 year old daughter inject the material in my ear and it came out a lot better. Next I will make the negative mold.


----------



## MuZo2

Looks good, you will have to trim them anyways.


----------



## Silverprout




----------



## Mython

silverprout said:


>


 
  
  
 You only get one pair of eardrums - are DIY impressions like this worth the risk?  _ (genuine question)_


----------



## acain

I have seen pictures were people actually used epoxy to make impressions. Thats just crazy.


----------



## MuZo2

what was that? DIY IEM are ok but for impressions do go to audiologist. At my place they charge 20 bucks only.


----------



## MuZo2

acain said:


> I have seen pictures were people actually used epoxy to make impressions. Thats just crazy.


 
 This guy , yeah crazy.
 http://www.instructables.com/id/Making-a-custom-in-ear-monitor/


----------



## acain

They charge $65 by me $20 thats great.


----------



## acain

Yeah that guy he does some very odd stuff for molds also I saw it and could not believe what I was reading.


----------



## Silverprout

mython said:


> You only get one pair of eardrums - are DIY impressions like this worth the risk?  _ (genuine question)_


 
  
 I go to the audiologist, DIY impressions can be very dangerous.


----------



## Furco

piotrus-g said:


> use bigger cap and lower resistor 30Ohm and 10uF to start at the same crossover point.


 
 I re-ran through the analysis and I am getting "something" that looks like a low pass filter but it's definitely not what I'm thinking should be happening.  I figured maybe I should try a 2nd order filter to see the lowering of the high frequencies more rapidly.  So I wired up a breadboard with a 2nd order lpf using 2 sets of 10ohm/100uF; i think this gives me a cut off frequency of around 160Hz.  I'm using this 2nd Order LP filter calculator:  http://sim.okawa-denshi.jp/en/CRCRtool.php   (plug in 10 for the R1/R2 and 100u for C1/C2).  Based on the Bode diagram from this site, it looks like I should see -40db attenuation definitely before 2kHz.  In reality, I'm only getting -24db @2kHz.  Nearing 10kHz, I should be seeing close to -75db reduction but I'm only seeing -27db.  Makes no sense.
  
 Is my wiring to blame for what I'm seeing?  Are some peaks immune to low-pass filters...lol.  I have one at 2kHz I just can't kill.
  
 I'm trying to understand crossover circuits and so far, low pass filters have me spinning my wheels.


----------



## Silverprout

furco said:


> Are some peaks immune to low-pass filters...lol.


 
*YES !*


----------



## MuZo2

furco said:


> Is my wiring to blame for what I'm seeing?  Are some peaks immune to low-pass filters...lol.  I have one at 2kHz I just can't kill.


 
 You can move them(length of tube) or smooth them( dampers)


----------



## Furco

muzo2 said:


> You can move them(length of tube) or smooth them( dampers)




Interesting idea: move the peak by changing tube length. I'll have to cut some and see how that works. I was able to affect that 2kHz spike with a 2nd order LPG using 10ohm/47uF . The general shape of the freq response is similar to the 10ohm/100uF 2nd Order lpf but it seems to drop that spike a little more even though the cutoff has now been shifter to the right. 

I would have thought electronics like this would be an exact science but it's more like magic....along with lots of experimentation. I spent the better part of yesterday graphing various lpf combinations. 

FYI- old VCR tape players are full of capacitors of many different values. Great resource to cannibalize if you happen to have one sitting around collecting dust.


----------



## TheoS53

furco said:


> I re-ran through the analysis and I am getting "something" that looks like a low pass filter but it's definitely not what I'm thinking should be happening.  I figured maybe I should try a 2nd order filter to see the lowering of the high frequencies more rapidly.  So I wired up a breadboard with a 2nd order lpf using 2 sets of 10ohm/100uF; i think this gives me a cut off frequency of around 160Hz.  I'm using this 2nd Order LP filter calculator:  http://sim.okawa-denshi.jp/en/CRCRtool.php   (plug in 10 for the R1/R2 and 100u for C1/C2).  Based on the Bode diagram from this site, it looks like I should see -40db attenuation definitely before 2kHz.  In reality, I'm only getting -24db @2kHz.  Nearing 10kHz, I should be seeing close to -75db reduction but I'm only seeing -27db.  Makes no sense.
> 
> Is my wiring to blame for what I'm seeing?  Are some peaks immune to low-pass filters...lol.  I have one at 2kHz I just can't kill.
> 
> I'm trying to understand crossover circuits and so far, low pass filters have me spinning my wheels.


 
 I'm in the same boat. Very confusing stuff. One thing i'm not sure about, is whether or not the impedance of the driver itself should be taken into account with those calculations


----------



## Silverprout

IMHO, you can't affect a mechanical resonance by an electric solution.


----------



## Furco

theos53 said:


> I'm in the same boat. Very confusing stuff. One thing i'm not sure about, is whether or not the impedance of the driver itself should be taken into account with those calculations




I was wondering the same thing. I have a 1kOhm variable resistor on my protoboard I tried tweeking during a sine sweep but as I cranked up the resistance it affected the overall response. One thing that seems to be consistent is the larger the resistor, the greater the drop off in higher frequencies but this is also comes at a cost of attenuating lower freqs as well. Looks like you have to compromise with introducing passive filters. At least low pass filters, anyway. High pass seem much more predictable.


----------



## Silverprout




----------



## Silverprout

The so so so tiny RAB32063 !


----------



## MuZo2

suitable to providing high-fidelity audio in value-priced earphones


----------



## Silverprout

2x smaller = 2x cheaper


----------



## Mython

silverprout said:


> 2x smaller = 2x cheaper


 
  
  
 But maybe 2x harder to manufacture?
  
 Probably not, but you know what I mean 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It can't be easy mass-producing such tiny, fine-tolerance components.
  
  
 In a way, I find it a bit odd that here we are, in the 21st century, and _still_ the 'state of the art' in (mass-market) miniature transducers is a *component that's a century old*!


----------



## Silverprout

mython said:


> But maybe 2x harder to manufacture?
> 
> Probably not, but you know what I mean
> 
> ...


 
  
 You are right, i planned to use them in a active configuration.
 They seem to have enough energy to be linear from 8K to 15K, the 29689 have nothing after 8K.
  
 PS : active filtering, hi-res DAPs and UV acrylic are not century old


----------



## Gilly87

This is so cool...I didn't even know people were doing DIY IEMs! You guys are amazing; I wish I had the fine-motor precision to go in for this. I botched my first O2, but I've considered trying again...maybe I'll look into this if it goes well


----------



## acain

I just looked at my drivers the ED and CI I cant believe how small these things are especially the ED and there are even smaller ones. Its unbelievable the sound that comes out of these little things. I can solder really good I went to Lincoln Tech for 3 years for electronics  and have soldered a lot and I am terrified to solder these things LOL.


----------



## CMOS1138

acain said:


> I just looked at my drivers the ED and CI I cant believe how small these things are especially the ED and there are even smaller ones. Its unbelievable the sound that comes out of these little things. I can solder really good I went to Lincoln Tech for 3 years for electronics  and have soldered a lot and I am terrified to solder these things LOL.


 
 Just don't hold the iron to the driver for too long and you will be fine. I understand the fear, I originally attempted to use conductive glue instead of solder on my first set because I was so afraid of damaging the drivers but that was an extremely frustrating waste of time and so I took the plunge and I haven't burned out a driver yet.


----------



## acain

Are the solder pads on Knowles drivers pre-tinned?


----------



## CMOS1138

gilly87 said:


> This is so cool...I didn't even know people were doing DIY IEMs! You guys are amazing; I wish I had the fine-motor precision to go in for this. I botched my first O2, but I've considered trying again...maybe I'll look into this if it goes well


 
  
 You have to be willing to keep trying even when you fail over and over. I have a box full of botched shells at my workbench that is evidence of my determination to get it right and not give up. I think most of us here have a similar collection of failed attempts.


----------



## CMOS1138

acain said:


> Are the solder pads on Knowles drivers pre-tinned?


 
 yes there is a bit of solder on the pad, you can see they are dome shaped if you look closely but you should still tin the wire with enough solder to attach as if the pad was not tinned. You want to make a quick connection without heating up the driver too much.


----------



## acain

I have made tests pieces of a half round shell before I mess up my real shells so I know what I am getting into. I came up with a great way to cut a small layer off for a backplate.  I have an adjustable drill press table and set it just below my Dremel cut wheel, and then set the shell on the adjustable table and rotate it into the wheel. My Dremel is battery poewerd and has a flat base to stand up. It makes a perfectly even piece to pour acrylic into it and cure it for a backplate.. I will have to post pictures when I do the real shells.


----------



## TheoS53

acain said:


> I have made tests pieces of a half round shell before I mess up my real shells so I know what I am getting into. I came up with a great way to cut a small layer off for a backplate.  I have an adjustable drill press table and set it just below my Dremel cut wheel, and then set the shell on the adjustable table and rotate it into the wheel. My Dremel is battery poewerd and has a flat base to stand up. It makes a perfectly even piece to pour acrylic into it and cure it for a backplate.. I will have to post pictures when I do the real shells.


 
 thats exactly how the backplate should be done. Ultimate ears do the same, except they do it by hand with a Dremel like tool and no drill press


----------



## MuZo2

acain said:


> Are the solder pads on Knowles drivers pre-tinned?


 

 Did you download user doc from Knowles site? It has info on soldering , working temp etc...


----------



## Mython

Are you all using low-temperature solder and temperature-controlled soldering irons?
  
 Just curious.
  
 I haven't taken the plunge into DIY CIEM territory, so, for the timebeing, I'm an interested 'outsider looking in'.


----------



## MuZo2

UV acrylic shells are really tricky.
  
 Bought some material from audiologist. UV acrylic was from Egger 150gm ( was expensive).
  
 Duplicating material was jelly like substance. Melting temperature 90 deg, Working temperature 50-55 deg.
 If heated more it causes bubbles. So after 4 trials got it right.
  
 The problem with above material is it is not clear. So had problems ith UV curing.
 1st try 30 sec - Only thin layer was formed
 2nd try 60 sec - Better but with hole
 3rd try 120 sec- Good but uneven thickness and hole
 For 4th try I cut the negative mold so that cavity outside gets even exposure.
 4th try - No holes but wall thickness was not same. I guess because UV lamps are not from all sides.
 5th try - Rotated the mold after 60 sec.
 Result is much good, but its not transparent. 2nd and 3rd try was transparent and clear like glass.
  
 I think I have to find another duplicating material.


----------



## tranhieu

mython said:


> Are you all using low-temperature solder and temperature-controlled soldering irons?
> 
> Just curious.
> 
> I haven't taken the plunge into DIY CIEM territory, so, for the timebeing, I'm an interested 'outsider looking in'.


 
 Just get a 12w soldering iron and you're good to go. I can't remember how many drivers I've soldered and I've never spoilt any due to too much heat exposure.


----------



## acain

No I have not be I will know thanks. Never thought about this but doing the backplates would be easier just chucking up a dremal cut off wheel right in a drill press and just set the height from the table. This would be a lot easier then doing by hand and it would be real stable.


----------



## acain

Smooth-On sells 4hr transparent silicone UV penetrates it great.


----------



## briancortez2112

acain said:


> Smooth-On sells 4hr transparent silicone UV penetrates it great.



Do you recall the name of the product?


----------



## acain

Here is a link to 30 min translucent silicone www.smooth-on.com/Silicone-Rubber-an/c2_1115.../index.html
  
 Here is another one this is firmer but has to be degassed in a vacuum chamber *SORTA-Clear® 37* - Shore 37A hardness theses are both by the same company. I tried this one and it worked good for UV acrylic. There were a lot off air bubbles since I didn't degas the silicone.  But it works good if you take a small brush and coat the ear impression that way there will b no bubbles on the surface that really matters. This one takes 4hrs to cure the one I listed first cures in 30min but I have not used it yet. I just ordered some of it today.


----------



## acain

Does any one see a difference in between using thin or thick walled sonic tubing? I have both kinds and was wondering if it really makes a difference. I was going to use the thicker tubing on my driver for my lows.


----------



## TheoS53

acain said:


> Does any one see a difference in between using thin or thick walled sonic tubing? I have both kinds and was wondering if it really makes a difference. I was going to use the thicker tubing on my driver for my lows.


 
 Perhaps the thicker wall will make it more difficult to install at the part that goes into the ear canal


----------



## Shawn71

Amazing, such a wonderful thread exist and so many genious nuts driving it...feel shame I missed it...


----------



## winternoir

Hi everyone. After going through this thread I decided to try and assemble a custom I|EM for myself. I am thinking more in the direction of a hybrid.
  
 I am looking for a detailed sound with good (rich?) bass. Currently I am liking my JVC FX-300 very much. I also own a hippo pro one, and I grew to love the sound it produce.
  
 So... I purchased 2 pairs of BA from luna (sonion 37AP015 and knowles 30265 because I want to try on which of these two sounds better to my taste). Now for the dynamic I was thinking of harvesting from my MH1C (I have 3 of them, one already re-cabled). I don't think I will put any form of crossover into the design.
  
 Now, I am hoping to get some opinion on the combination of MH1C's micro DD with any of these two BA:
 1. Will they work together very well?
 2. Is there any other cheap source of DD that anyone can suggest to replace the MH1C's? (I can source these at about $18 in where I live). It shouldn't be too big because the housing I choose is this one: http://www.lunashops.com/goods.php?id=2894
  
 Any inputs are really appreciated. Sorry for my imperfect English.


----------



## CMOS1138

It may be difficult to fit 2 drivers into that housing. Good luck on the project.


----------



## acain

Just want to say thanks too BILLAVIDEO can you believe he started this thread over 5 years ago and its still going strong.


----------



## winternoir

cmos1138 said:


> It may be difficult to fit 2 drivers into that housing. Good luck on the project.


 

 This is true. I have taken MH1C's micro driver and it is very tight when placed in parallel configuration. My initial plan was to have the BA affixed to the front part of the housing (the one that sticks to the ear) and the DD on the outer part of the housing (the one visible from outside of the ear).
  
 Is there any other source of bigger shell housing that's not too expensive (the ones linked in my previous post was only $6 USD delivered) to accommodate 2 drivers? Alternatively, is there any other DD source that I can get for cheap (preferably ones that cost less than $18 USD delivered). I live in Jakarta, Indonesia btw.
  
 I have wired the sonions and listened to it to test if they are working, and was surprised they sound really good as is. I haven't fixed them permanently into the housing yet, was thinking of using some kind of playing clay that my children use (korean made, they harden into some kind of soft rubbery form). I listened to Adele and Calvin Harris when I tested them.


----------



## Furco

I'm using a fairly inexpensive variable solder station. Set temp to 350 degree and works just fine. I've made a pretty basic heatsink clamping jig using an old CPU heatsink. I don't think a heatsink is necessary as long as you're using the right temp on your iron. With the right temp. The solder runs pretty quick but the flux doesn't smolder.

I'm too new to post pics. Sorry, otherwise I would.


----------



## Furco

theos53 said:


> thats exactly how the backplate should be done. Ultimate ears do the same, except they do it by hand with a Dremel like tool and no drill press


 
 I use sandpaper.  Put 120 grit sandpaper on a flat surface and sand the backplate completely off to open up the shell.  The flat surface ensures you have a nice even surface to work with when your ready to close the shells back up with your custom made face plates.  If you try and do this by hand with a cutoff wheel and a dremel tool, you may end of with a curved/jagged/uneven surface which may be difficult to deal with later on.


----------



## winternoir

Here's the type of playing clay that I will be using to hold the DD and BA in the housing (can't post pictures yet) 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/673vk2dacqlkdft/CameraZOOM-20141108061552074.jpg?dl=0


----------



## Furco

winternoir said:


> Here's the type of playing clay that I will be using to hold the DD and BA in the housing (can't post pictures yet)
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/673vk2dacqlkdft/CameraZOOM-20141108061552074.jpg?dl=0




I'm familiar with that clay; I have kids. I'd be curious to hear how well it sticks to acrylic. I've have a bottle of Loctite GO2 I think should work petty well. The bottle I have is pretty thick. Otherwise, a dab of rubber cement might work too. I'm a little skittish about trying hot glue.


----------



## TheoS53

furco said:


> I use sandpaper.  Put 120 grit sandpaper on a flat surface and sand the backplate completely off to open up the shell.  The flat surface ensures you have a nice even surface to work with when your ready to close the shells back up with your custom made face plates.  If you try and do this by hand with a cutoff wheel and a dremel tool, you may end of with a curved/jagged/uneven surface which may be difficult to deal with later on.




Yeah, when I said that's how it should be done, I meant that's how the pros do it :-D


----------



## acain

Its Friday kids are sleeping over grandmoms home alone. Time to start making negative impressions thought I would share my process. I first cut down a piece off PVC to fit my impression in I cut a circle out of 11GA stainless at work on a CNC Laser for a flat bottom. I picked up some non-stick aluminum foil to line the stainless so I could remove the mold from it easy.  I did test pieces with wax I didn't like how the wax was left behind in the mold, so I will build up the final piece with UV Acrylic Fotoplast for fitting. I then put a small drop of hot glue on the bottom of impression so it wouldn't  move. Next I used a fine paint brush and coated everything that the silicone was coming in contact with a VERY thin layer of Vaseline. Vaseline works great and it is very easy to wipe off after words. I then centered the PVC ring around the impression and ran a small bead of hot glue around the bottom. Mix the silicone and before I poured it I took a small brush and coated the impression so there would be know air bubbles on the surface of the impression. I poured the rest over the impressions and let it cure for about 35 minutes. After it was done  it was easy to take out all you have to do is peal off the foil and trim some of the excess silicone and the impression came right out. There was very little Vaseline to clean I just ran the mold under warm water and a little soap. The last picture is just a UV light shinning through to show that it penetrates the silicone. This isn't the light I am using I have a small UV chamber to cure the acrylic. Silicone doesn't have to be that transparent for UV light to cure acrylic I did test parts and it cured in 18 minutes witch made a 3/32 thick wall. I could have used something were there was a bottom instead of using foil and a plate for a bottom. But this just makes it easier to remove incase it sticks for some reason. The silicone I used is tear resistant and is very flexible and has a very fast curing time. And there is a picture of my messy work bench. After I cast the acrylic I will post new pictures.


----------



## Furco

Those negative molds look great.  How powerful is your UV chamber because I've always been under the impression that in order to cure UV resin from the outside in, you need to use a transparent mold?  Translucent and opaque molds block most of the UV light, which maybe explains why you're curing times are close to 20 minutes.  I've tried making molds out of silicon (GE Silicon II - Clear).  The first time, I thinned it down with xylene, maybe a bit too much because eventually the mold shrunk about 15% after about 10 days.  The second time, I didn't thin it but after a week, it failed to cure inside.  I didn't add acrylic paint or glycerin to it as suggested on many sites to speed curing because I wanted to try and get a "clear" mold.  It didn't work.  I used Knox gelatin with limited success.  It's transparent and reusable which is great but making the walls of the mold as thin as practical to maximize UV exposure leaves the mold too weak and structurally unsound.
  
 I've searched for "hydrocolloid" but unbelievably, that was a dead end for me.  Nothing turned up; seriously!  My last and best effort was to use a product from Clear Ballistics.  This is official ballistics gel of which they sell samples perfect for DIY's like us or by the pound.  Shipping was as a bit much but I was tired of trying different materials for the mold. 
  

  
 This stuff is absolutely crystal clear, very strong and tear resistant. When I say "strong", think of how resistant your skin and muscle is to cuts or punctures and then you'll start to get the idea.  Ballistics gel is to Knox gelatin as the Hulk is to a toddler.  But here's the catch with this stuff though:  you need to cook it in a oven at 270 degree (F) for a few hour for a bubble free mold.  At 270 degrees (F), you cannot use wax or hot glue for your "positives" (e.g. the thing you're making the mold of).  A lot of stuff melts at temperatures lower than 270 degrees.  I had success, however, with using West Systems 105 Epoxy.  I'm sure there's other acceptable resins that won't melt at those temps but West Systems epoxy was what I had in my shop and was glad it worked for this part of the process. 
  
 The cloudy liquid in the mold is acrylic resin I couldn't get the air bubble out of.  I'll work on that part of the process later as I do have a vacuum chamber I made from an old dehumidifier.


----------



## Furco

In the spirit of giving back, I present to you the "Home-Made IEMs" forum Definitive DIY Guide:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jU37oWefx2dGS8dWw5TVkugEtwJh_bh3fuUBNe2HrQg/edit?usp=sharing

A few people have asked for a document that organized the vast amounts of information that this particular forum contains and here it is.

It's mostly finished and I'm loosing motivation to make it perfect as I've learned enough compiling and re-writing it that I want to now spend time actually working on my own custom IEMs instead of the document. There is so much more I wanted to add to it but it-is-what-it-is. 

Enjoy!


----------



## briancortez2112

I to stumbled apon the clear ballistics gel, but I never pulled the trigger as I need something that isn't hot so I could use wax to get the impression as smooth as I can and for slight build up..


----------



## Mython

> .... I had success, however, with using West Systems 105 Epoxy.  I'm sure there's other acceptable resins that won't melt at those temps but West Systems epoxy was what I had in my shop and was glad it worked for this part of the process. ....


 
  
  
 Any concerns about Bisphenol A ?
  
 I'm not saying it's definitely in WS 105 Epoxy, but it _is_ present in some epoxies, so it'd be worth checking.
  
 I realise you only used the epoxy for a positive mould, but still, _if_ present within the epoxy, then there could, potentially, be transfer onto the surface of the ballistics gel negative mould, and from there onto the surface of the final CIEM shell.


----------



## Furco

mython said:


> Any concerns about Bisphenol A ?
> 
> I'm not saying it's definitely in WS 105 Epoxy, but it _is_ present in some epoxies, so it'd be worth checking.
> 
> I realise you only used the epoxy for a positive mould, but still, _if_ present within the epoxy, then there could, potentially, be transfer onto the surface of the ballistics gel negative mould, and from there onto the surface of the final CIEM shell.



 


Good point 

Chances are good that I'll have to build up shells during the final fittings to get a decent fit and acceptable level of isolation. That should give me the opportunity to use something a bit safer that will be in contact with my ears. This definitely gives me an appreciation for why IEMs can be so expensive.

If anyone has had luck with "cold" mold making materials that are compatible with UV-curable resins, I'm all ears...lol.

BTW, does anyone know what the heck "hydrocolloid" is or where to get it? It was mentioned on one of the Youtube videos from one of the major manufactures of IEMs.


----------



## acain

The negative molds are alot clearer in person the pictures dont do it justice. I actually am getting hydrocolloid and the vendor says its reusable. The silicone molds work good its just very hard to get the acrylic mold out not very flexible.


----------



## acain

That link is unreal great work must have been alot of work.


----------



## acain

I am using 4-9w bulbs that are rated for 365nm, I made a wood box and lined it with reflective walls it works pretty good. My kids also now use it for there nails lol.


----------



## acain

furco said:


> In the spirit of giving back, I present to you the "Home-Made IEMs" forum Definitive DIY Guide:
> 
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jU37oWefx2dGS8dWw5TVkugEtwJh_bh3fuUBNe2HrQg/edit?usp=sharing
> 
> ...


 

 This had to take you forever its awesome I hope you get the motivation to add to it.


----------



## acain

I need some advice if any one can give me some input. My ear canal is VERY small in diameter, I am using 2 drivers. I have both size acoustic tubing. The diameter of the my canal is so small I am going to have a hard time getting 2 tubes in and it will make my walls really thin. The only thing I could think of doing is make the walls thin then put some acrylic down in the nozzle and cure it. Is there any way to connect the 2 tubes and have them exit the nozzle as 1 tube like a Y splitter? I have no clue how to get around this. Thanks for any advice.


----------



## MuZo2

You can use heatshrink to make a Y joint.


----------



## winternoir

furco said:


> In the spirit of giving back, I present to you the "Home-Made IEMs" forum Definitive DIY Guide:
> 
> ...
> 
> Enjoy!


 

 Thank you so much Furco for your effort.
  
 Wish it was finished before I went through all 160 pages he he he. But, wow! 33k words over 118 when downloaded as word document. Almost like a dissertation paper!


----------



## MuZo2

furco said:


> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jU37oWefx2dGS8dWw5TVkugEtwJh_bh3fuUBNe2HrQg/edit?usp=sharing
> 
> A few people have asked for a document that organized the vast amounts of information that this particular forum contains and here it is.


 
 Great work Furco, that was lot of effort in putting down on paper. I would suggest if you make more of your own IEM , you can start a new thread and add pictures and description as you progress.


----------



## Furco

winternoir said:


> Thank you so much Furco for your effort.
> 
> Wish it was finished before I went through all 160 pages he he he. But, wow! 33k words over 118 when downloaded as word document. Almost like a dissertation paper!



Actually, going through the 160+ pages of this forum introduces you to the people who contributed to the document. I'm very familiar with some of the contributors even though I've never met or messaged them. I really admire those contributors. Trying to consume a meal this large in one sitting just isn't possible.

Also, as I'm doing some freq testing with my latest set of drivers, I'm running into similar problems/observations that have already been discussed! At the end of the day, it's all a matter of tweak, test, repeat.


----------



## acain

Has anyone tried to use nitrogen or argon to help cure tbere acrylic for diy? I plan trying it, the sticky uncured acrylic is a pain in the butt to remove.


----------



## Furco

acain said:


> Has anyone tried to use nitrogen or argon to help cure tbere acrylic for diy? I plan trying it, the sticky uncured acrylic is a pain in the butt to remove.




You're really diving head first into the diy shell game! That's awesome!

I feel your pain. That sticky stuff gets all over the place but it's easily cleaned using isopropoyl alcohol which is super cheap. Acetone may dissolve some acrylic resins so I would avoid it. I actually put one of my first attempts in a container of acetone and shook it hoping to remove the residue but when I took it out, it was full of holes!! One thing that pissed me off early on when working on creating shells was the notion that the sticky stuff was "grease". I also read that it's called an "inhibition layer". I thought it was the same concept used by gasless mig welder that utilize flux cored wire instead of argon gas. As the welding wire melts, it releases the flux and creates a protective slag on top of the weld. This slag layer prevents oxygen from oxidizing the weld and creating a weak bond, more or less. Somewhere along the way I convinced myself that this "grease" must be a byproduct of the UV curing reaction the same as the slag layer. Well I was very wrong.

Needless to say, that grease is not a byproduct of the reaction, it's just incured resin. Plain and simple. 

This is actually important because it means if your shells are thin in some places you don't have to clean all that "grease" off first, you can just apply more resin on top of the sticky surface and plop it back in your UV chamber. You can do this as many times as necessary until you're satistied. The use isopropyl alcohol with a few q-tips and clean them up.

Granted, uncured resin is very annoying and gets over everything but I'm not sure rigging up your UV chamber to hold argon or nitrogen during the curing process is cost effective when isopropyl alcohol is about $3 per quart and readily available. 

But I would definitely try it if I had easy access to a gas supplier! Why the heck not! 

Good luck!


----------



## winternoir

> Originally PostBoQ  by *Furco* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> 
> Actualy, going through the 160+ pages of this forum introduces you to the people who contributed to the document. I'm very familiar with some of the contributors even though I've never met or messaged them. I really admire those contributors. ...


 
  
 You're right Furco. 
  
 In other news, the BA and DD didn't fit in the housing.  Will post pictures later.


----------



## acain

furco said:


> You're really diving head first into the diy shell game! That's awesome!
> 
> I feel your pain. That sticky stuff gets all over the place but it's easily cleaned using isopropoyl alcohol which is super cheap. Acetone may dissolve some acrylic resins so I would avoid it. I actually put one of my first attempts in a container of acetone and shook it hoping to remove the residue but when I took it out, it was full of holes!! One thing that pissed me off early on when working on creating shells was the notion that the sticky stuff was "grease". I also read that it's called an "inhibition layer". I thought it was the same concept used by gasless mig welder that utilize flux cored wire instead of argon gas. As the welding wire melts, it releases the flux and creates a protective slag on top of the weld. This slag layer prevents oxygen from oxidizing the weld and creating a weak bond, more or less. Somewhere along the way I convinced myself that this "grease" must be a byproduct of the UV curing reaction the same as the slag layer. Well I was very wrong.
> 
> ...


 

 I did jump right in head first the money I have spent I could have bought a really nice pair of JH or UE CIEM's, its not about the money knowing I made them gives me more satisfaction then just buying a pair. But I still would like to buy them also. The most satisfaction that I have gotten out of this so fair, is the other day me and my 13yr daughter spent like 3hrs making molds and shells together. And we had a blast doing it and spending some money on a project me and my kid can do together will make priceless memories.
  
 I am planning on getting argon or nitrogen I priced both, the argon you can go to welding supply store and get a small tank for about $60 not sure if I want to spend all that money.  The second option is nitrogen. I did some research a lot of people that have paintball guns use nitrogen now.  There is a ton of nitrogen paintball tanks on Ebay and a used one cost about $35. My local paintball store refills with nitrogen and most welding supply stores can fill these tanks also. So I think I will be buying a nitrogen tank, it wont go to waste since both my kids use UV Gel acrylic for there nails and the first coat of the nail polish comes out tacky also.  I asked my kids if they come out tacky when they go to a nail salon, and they do all they do at the salon is wipe them with rubbing alcohol and put a top coat hardener on.


----------



## Furco

acain said:


> I did jump right in head first the money I have spent I could have bought a really nice pair of JH or UE CIEM's, its not about the money knowing I made them gives me more satisfaction then just buying a pair. But I still would like to buy them also. The most satisfaction that I have gotten out of this so fair, is the other day me and my 13yr daughter spent like 3hrs making molds and shells together. And we had a blast doing it and spending some money on a project me and my kid can do together will make priceless memories.


 
  
 Love that story of you and your daughters making molds. That, sir, is priceless.  I've been keeping close track of my expenses on this project.  I up to $350 at this point and will probably end up close to $500 by the time I'm done.  I knew this going in that it would be cheaper to buy than to try and build but where's the fun in that!


----------



## CMOS1138

Hi guys, I am working on a new project.
  
 RAB for high with a 2.2uf cap acting as the high pass 
 DTEC for mids, running full range with no filters or crossover
 CI for base with red damper acting as an acoustic low pass.
  
 I was planning to implement an electronic low pass on CI consisting of 4 ohm resistor and 100uf cap but unfortunately the components I picked on mouser are too big to fit inside the shell XD. The high pass 2.2uf capacitor is an SMD type about the size of a grain of sand and upon opening the package one of the 2 I ordered fell out never to be seen again. I will have to wait for a replacement before I can finish the right ear and listen to them in stereo for a proper impression but so far the left ear sounds quite nice. 
  
 For this shell I am going with translucent black that I mixed together from 3 or 4 drops of opaque black UV gel mixed in with the clear gel.


----------



## winternoir

As promised, here are some pics (links only, sorry!) to the IEM I am working on
  
 MH1C donor, opened:
 https://www.dropbox.com/s/2ydye4ym8optjxd/DSC08560.jpg?dl=0
  
 MH1C DD behind Sonion, even when put together like this (was held by the mighty power of MH1C's magnets), they wont fit in the shell (was too long):
 https://www.dropbox.com/s/uhq28hc1mdqcfah/DSC08563.jpg?dl=0
  
 Sonion and Knowles, together (and yup, you guessed it, they won't fit in the small housing I bought):
 https://www.dropbox.com/s/oio1i4u9o9qpxsz/DSC08566.jpg?dl=0
  
 Finally, I use only the Sonion (until I can get my hand on bigger shell for a hybrid):
 https://www.dropbox.com/s/xjmrb7tyw7tmkw8/DSC08567.jpg?dl=0
  
 Buuuuttt.... they sounded awful. It sounded different than when I held them up to my ears using only my hands. I think I have discovered the true meaning of distortion ha ha.
 I think the problem is because they a). Aren't positioned as close as when being held; b). The energy was wasted inside the housing (need to seal the units better).
 I will try and get those playing clay this week, and probably use other method to direct the pressure of air from the BA directly to the tip.
  
 I don't really want to get into building a custom shell like everyone else. Still looking for a bigger shell that can accommodate these two DD and BA. Suggestions are very appreciated.
  
 Exciting times!


----------



## CMOS1138

winternoir said:


> Buuuuttt.... they sounded awful. It sounded different than when I held them up to my ears using only my hands. I think I have discovered the true meaning of distortion ha ha.
> I think the problem is because they a). Aren't positioned as close as when being held; b). The energy was wasted inside the housing (need to seal the units better).
> I will try and get those playing clay this week, and probably use other method to direct the pressure of air from the BA directly to the tip.
> 
> ...


 
 You need to attach acoustic tubing to the end of your driver in order to properly channel the sound. Use just enough to get to the end of the sound port. Once you have acoustic tubing attached you can try shaping the sound with dampers to get something you like.


----------



## winternoir

cmos1138 said:


> You need to attach acoustic tubing to the end of your driver in order to properly channel the sound. Use just enough to get to the end of the sound port. Once you have acoustic tubing attached you can try shaping the sound with dampers to get something you like.


 
  
 Initially I was thinking I didn't need them, but in the end I think I will look for them.
  
 Besides, lunas don't have them (they do have dampers though) and I still hasn't found acoustic tubing supplier nearby or those where I don't need to pay expensive shipping fee. I live in Jakarta, Indonesia btw.
  
 Can I use other materials to replace the tubing? Are very small silicone tubes like the ones used in hydraulics toys work as well? Will their softness affects the sound in any way?


----------



## CMOS1138

winternoir said:


> Initially I was thinking I didn't need them, but in the end I think I will look for them.
> 
> Besides, lunas don't have them (they do have dampers though) and I still hasn't found acoustic tubing supplier nearby or those where I don't need to pay expensive shipping fee. I live in Jakarta, Indonesia btw.
> 
> Can I use other materials to replace the tubing? Are very small silicone tubes like the ones used in hydraulics toys work as well? Will their softness affects the sound in any way?


 
  
 tubing of any type you can get will be better than nothing.


----------



## acain

furco said:


> Love that story of you and your daughters making molds. That, sir, is priceless.  I've been keeping close track of my expenses on this project.  I up to $350 at this point and will probably end up close to $500 by the time I'm done.  I knew this going in that it would be cheaper to buy than to try and build but where's the fun in that!




I stopped counting after $300 I dont want to know my total.


----------



## CMOS1138

In theory it would be possible to do this project on a budget around $100, but audiophiles are rarely accused of making sound financial decisions. 
  
 Lets see, the budget could go something like this.
  
 Ear impression kit from Gorilla Ears $13
 Knox gelatin ~$5 from walmart
 Lina brand UV nail gel $5 from ebay 
 black light bulb ~$4 from home depot.
 Acoustic tubing ~$8 for 5' delivered from westones
 2 x knowles RAB series driver ~$30 delivered from mouser
 2 x mmcx connector $6 from mouser, order with driver to save on shipping
 Shure style cable ~$15 from ebay
 dremel style rotary tool ~14 from ebay
  
 That gives you a total bill of exactly $100 and it could be less if you already have the rotary tool. It is hard to have that kind of discipline though, when you are excited about a project.


----------



## TheoS53

cmos1138 said:


> In theory it would be possible to do this project on a budget around $100, but audiophiles are rarely accused of making sound financial decisions.
> 
> Lets see, the budget could go something like this.
> 
> ...


 
 Do you happen to have the part number for that mmcx connector, please?


----------



## MuZo2

winternoir said:


>


 
 Actually you picked the wrong drivers from Sonion and Knowles.


----------



## Silverprout

"The world first earshell-art decorative monolith"
  
 Made with nail art gel !


----------



## winternoir

muzo2 said:


> Actually you picked the wrong drivers from Sonion and Knowles.


 
  
 Is it because of their frequency range?
  
 I am new to this thing and bought them only because they are available and easy for me to source.
 I did look through mouser, but it cost $75 USD for shipping to where I live.


----------



## CMOS1138

theos53 said:


> Do you happen to have the part number for that mmcx connector, please?


 
  
  I simply typed in MMCX in the mouser search box and got a page full of results that all cost about $3 each. 
  
 This one looks like the kind I am using but I actually purchased them an a lot of 10 off ebay
  
 http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Taoglas/PCBMMCXFSTJACKHT/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMt9rZLnhhqRz3qUwlhuhHna


----------



## TheoS53

cmos1138 said:


> I simply typed in MMCX in the mouser search box and got a page full of results that all cost about $3 each.
> 
> This one looks like the kind I am using but I actually purchased them an a lot of 10 off ebay
> 
> http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Taoglas/PCBMMCXFSTJACKHT/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMt9rZLnhhqRz3qUwlhuhHna


 
 Perfect, thanks buddy


----------



## MrKommander

Could somebody mention the best way to colorize acryl ? Do you need the expencive pigments or is it possible to mix the acryl with acrylic colors ?


----------



## Furco

The force you need to lock MMCX connectors is pretty extraordinary.  I was amazed at how difficult it was to snap them together.  Then I tried to pull them apart and it's even more difficult.  No kidding.  It was previously mentioned in earlier posts, that if you're going to use these, you're going to have to find a way to reinforce the area holding the jack in the shells, otherwise, the jack will break off from the shell and you'll have to repair it after much cursing.  I wonder if there is a way to sand down the locking ring on the male plug so that it doesn't require so much force?  I'll have to give it a try if it becomes a major problem.
  
 Silverprout, that shell looks pretty good; nice and clear.  I dig the large hardened puddle underneath it. Great job!


----------



## CMOS1138

silverprout said:


> "The world first earshell-art decorative monolith"
> 
> Made with nail art gel !


 
 I can't figure out how that even happened. It wasn't intentional was it?


----------



## CMOS1138

furco said:


> The force you need to lock MMCX connectors is pretty extraordinary.  I was amazed at how difficult it was to snap them together.  Then I tried to pull them apart and it's even more difficult.  No kidding.  It was previously mentioned in earlier posts, that if you're going to use these, you're going to have to find a way to reinforce the area holding the jack in the shells, otherwise, the jack will break off from the shell and you'll have to repair it after much cursing.  I wonder if there is a way to sand down the locking ring on the male plug so that it doesn't require so much force?  I'll have to give it a try if it becomes a major problem.
> 
> Silverprout, that shell looks pretty good; nice and clear.  I dig the large hardened puddle underneath it. Great job!


 
  
 The difficulty in detaching the connector is both the strength and the weakness of MMCX. You are correct to point out that it takes some extra planning and work to make sure the connector is secure and the shell is strong, the first time I used MMCX, I was very frustrated with it because when attaching the cable for the first time, I broke the connector loose and pushed it into the shell.
 2 pin connectors don't have this problem because it takes very little force to attach and detach. The problem with 2 pin connectors is that it can become annoying how easily the cables become detached. That is why I have decided to make the change to MMCX, once you have the shill right, I find it is less frustrating to use on a daily basis.


----------



## CMOS1138

mrkommander said:


> Could somebody mention the best way to colorize acryl ? Do you need the expencive pigments or is it possible to mix the acryl with acrylic colors ?


 
  
 This is something that we are all still experimenting with. 
  
 I have 2 methods that work well for me.
  
 1) make a clear shell, paint it whatever color you like, add a thin layer of acrylic on top of the paint.
  
 2) add a few drops of color to the uv gel before curing. The pigment I use is simply opaque colored UV nail gel. It is available in a wide range of colors.


----------



## Furco

cmos1138 said:


> RAB for high with a 2.2uf cap acting as the high pass
> DTEC for mids, running full range with no filters or crossover
> CI for base with red damper acting as an acoustic low pass.


 
 Very clean looking build!  How'd you wire them up?  All in parallel?  Any problems driving them due to the impedance differences? That RAB runs at around 125ohms@1kHz while the other two drivers are quite a bit less.  Any measurements on the acoustic tubing (e.g. lengh and diameter)?  Do you use a FR test rig or do you tune by ear?
  
 I'm in the midst of trying to tune a CI + DTEC + Sony XBA.  The XBAs were cannibalized from  a pair of XBA-C10iP.  They seem quite excellent for high frequencies.  I've been tuning/testing for 2 weeks now and I think I'm close to having something I like.  The CI seems to have massive output compared to the DTEC and XBA and in my latest test, I threw a 120ohm resistor on it to balance it with the other drivers.  The problem now is that I'm having trouble driving the IEMs from my computer.  I can max out the volume and they sound pretty great but I could definitely go 2 - 3 clicks higher.  I may have stuffed too much wool in the acoustic tubing or the overall impedance is too high.  I'll have to run some calculations to give me an idea of what my circuit looks like.
  
 Between the tubing length and diameter, damper material, crossovers, wiring in parallel or serially, the combinations seem endless.  I know it shouldn't be a shot in the dark but man-o-man, I feel like a switchboard operator moving plugs around on my breadboard trying to adjust the frequency response in-flight.
  
 I'll post some FFT graphs when I get back home.  Anyone have luck tuning via FFT and pink noise?


----------



## acain

Instead of a mmcx connectors maybe a right angle 3/32 phono plug I am experimenting with these and it looks promising.


----------



## Xymordos

What does the XBA driver look like? I'm curious


----------



## CMOS1138

furco said:


> Very clean looking build!  How'd you wire them up?  All in parallel?  Any problems driving them due to the impedance differences? That RAB runs at around 125ohms@1kHz while the other two drivers are quite a bit less.  Any measurements on the acoustic tubing (e.g. lengh and diameter)?  Do you use a FR test rig or do you tune by ear?
> 
> I'm in the midst of trying to tune a CI + DTEC + Sony XBA.  The XBAs were cannibalized from  a pair of XBA-C10iP.  They seem quite excellent for high frequencies.  I've been tuning/testing for 2 weeks now and I think I'm close to having something I like.  The CI seems to have massive output compared to the DTEC and XBA and in my latest test, I threw a 120ohm resistor on it to balance it with the other drivers.  The problem now is that I'm having trouble driving the IEMs from my computer.  I can max out the volume and they sound pretty great but I could definitely go 2 - 3 clicks higher.  I may have stuffed too much wool in the acoustic tubing or the overall impedance is too high.  I'll have to run some calculations to give me an idea of what my circuit looks like.
> 
> ...


 
 Yes, all in parallel. No problem driving them, it works fine straight out off the audio jack of my cell phone, I didn't have to use my amp. According to the official data sheet, RAB-32063 has an impedance of 46.3ohm @1khz which is close enough to the other 2 for them to all work together. I don't have measurements on the tubing because I simply use whatever fits and trim off the extra. I try to make the tubing length on the high driver as short as possible and use more on the base driver. I am using standard #12 acoustic tubing.
  
 For testing, I keep meaning to build a test rig, but so far I am tuning by ear.


----------



## acain

cmos1138 said:


> Yes, all in parallel. No problem driving them, it works fine straight out off the audio jack of my cell phone, I didn't have to use my amp. According to the official data sheet, RAB-32063 has an impedance of 46.3ohm @1khz which is close enough to the other 2 for them to all work together. I don't have measurements on the tubing because I simply use whatever fits and trim off the extra. I try to make the tubing length on the high driver as short as possible and use more on the base driver. I am using standard #12 acoustic tubing.
> 
> For testing, I keep meaning to build a test rig, but so far I am tuning by ear.




If you wired them in series how big of a difference would it really make?


----------



## CMOS1138

acain said:


> If you wired them in series how big of a difference would it really make?


 
 I am not an EE but the drivers would at the very least act as resistors for each other resulting in lower spl.


----------



## TheoS53

Gents,

Here's my first attempt at making an impression. I know I screwed up a little bit on the one side. But what's more important to me is, is it deep enough? It looked incredibly deep in the ear, but can't quite tell if its ok or not.

Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread thus far.


----------



## MuZo2

No it is not.


----------



## TheoS53

muzo2 said:


> No it is not.




Thought so. I'm crap scared of going deeper lol. 

Anyone have any tips on how to judge if the little foam stop is deep enough?


----------



## MuZo2

Why not just go to audiologist?


----------



## acain

theos53 said:


> Thought so. I'm crap scared of going deeper lol.
> 
> Anyone have any tips on how to judge if the little foam stop is deep enough?




If your using one of those cotton or foam dams that you insert in your ear before you inject the impression material, have someone look in your ear if they cant see it in your ear its uasually far enough.


----------



## acain

I did my own and I put the foam in with a qtip until I felt the slightest pressure. Then I injected the material and started backing the syringe out of the canal when I started to feel any pressure. If you look a couple pages back you will see how far my impressions go.


----------



## Mython

muzo2 said:


> Why not just go to audiologist?


 
  
  
 I agree.
  
 I support the premise of DIY CIEMs, but not DIY impressions. IMHO, it just isn't worth the risk of material creeping past an incorrectly-aligned self-inserted dam.
  
 Or (*@ **TheoS53*), to put it another way, are your eardrums worth less to you than $50?
  
  
 .


----------



## TheoS53

mython said:


> I agree.
> 
> I support the premise of DIY CIEMs, but not DIY impressions. IMHO, it just isn't worth the risk of material creeping past an incorrectly-aligned self-inserted dam.
> 
> ...


 
 I hear what you're saying. Unfortunately it's double that price here. But in all honesty, I think its pretty hard to screw up really. I'm pretty sure the eardrum goes through far more pressure during diving


----------



## TheoS53

Of course the initial molds were't perfect, but I decided to use these to practice shaping the shell. What do you guys think?


----------



## Mython

theos53 said:


> I hear what you're saying. Unfortunately it's double that price here. But in all honesty, I think its pretty hard to screw up really. I'm pretty sure the eardrum goes through far more pressure during diving


 
  
  
 Not to labour the point (and I respect your right to make your own choice), but it's not so much about pressure as it is the risk of the impression material potentially adhering to the eardrum, with disastrous effects upon removal of the impression from the ear canal.
  
 If one had a digital otoscope linked to a laptop (so as to be able to see a live view of the inner ear, on a screen/monitor), then one could reliably locate the dam without assistance.
  
 Anyway, as I said, I respect your right to choose what you do with your own ears, so I'll respectfully stand back, now


----------



## acain

Make sure you leave enough material and a landing for your connector.


----------



## acain

Ok


----------



## MuZo2

acain said:


>


 

 Thats false statement and should be removed.


----------



## MIke M

Not to scare anyone but eardrums have been removed with impressions...... Also, diving causes pressure in your ears, removing a deep tight impression causes suction on the ear drum which can also do damage.


----------



## MuZo2




----------



## Silverprout

cmos1138 said:


> I can't figure out how that even happened. It wasn't intentional was it?


 
 it was an accident !

 I've made some shells in a ultra minimalist budget configuration.
 7$ nails UV gel in a 2$ paraffin negative cast cured in direct sunlight.
  
 The 2$ shell.


----------



## Silverprout

acain said:


> I believe the impression material was made not to adhere to the eardrum.


 

 Not the material but capillary action.
 You can totally destroy your ears.


----------



## acain

muzo2 said:


> Thats false statement and should be removed.




I did take it down, not to make an argument I said "I believe they make impression material not to adhere to the ear drum" they wouldnt produce a material for impressions that would adhere to the drum. I believe it could get stuck somehow and damage the drum in some way.


----------



## acain

And if anyone feels the slightest discomfort doing it themselves they should NOT attempt to do it. Go to the audiologist.


----------



## Silverprout

acain said:


> And if anyone feels the slightest discomfort doing it themselves they should NOT attempt to do it. Go to the audiologist.


 

 If there is no air at all betweet the impression material and your skin... a surgical intervention is needed.
 You will *never* get rid of the capillary adherence.


----------



## acain

silverprout said:


> it was an accident !
> 
> 
> I've made some shells in a ultra minimalist budget configuration.
> ...




How much thinner do you use in your UV gel? The Sina uv gel is like a paste.


----------



## Silverprout

acain said:


> How much thinner do you use in your UV gel? The Sina uv gel is like a paste.


 
  
 I regularly move the mold in my hand in order to equalize the thickness.
  
 PS : it was just for fun, i d'ont put UV nails gel on my skin


----------



## acain

I watched some You Tube videos on how they polish nails. Some of these girls make the acrylic look like glass, they are so good at it.


----------



## Mython

acain said:


>


 
  
  
 Don't worry; no one here is trying to make you look bad; you're amongst friends, here.
  
 It's not personal at all.
  
 We're all just trying to be accurate about something which could have significant health repercussions, so that anyone reading the thread can make well-informed decisions about the potential risks involved in doing DIY impressions. It's not something to be taken lightly.
  
 I certainly don't claim to be a professional authority on the topic, but I do see, & take very seriously, the risks, so I try to gently discourage people from taking those risks in order to protect their hearing health.
  
 If, having been made explicitly aware of those potential risks, one chooses to proceed nonetheless, then that is anyone's prerogative and I totally respect that.


----------



## acain

mython said:


> Don't worry; no one here is trying to make you look bad; you're amongst friends, here.
> 
> It's not personal at all.
> 
> ...




Believe me I did my own and I was nervous. For the price that some audiologist charge its well worth just having them to it.


----------



## Mython

mike m said:


> Not to scare anyone but eardrums have been removed with impressions...... Also, diving causes pressure in your ears, removing a deep tight impression causes suction on the ear drum which can also do damage.


 
  
 In a similar vein, I must admit, I find 1964Ears latest venture interesting (Ambrose Diaphonic Ear Lens technology   - AKA _'ADEL'_ -   integrated into a CIEM).
  
_Very _overpriced, but interesting...
  


> _"The technology features a secondary eardrum that absorbs the harmful pneumatic pressures produced by earbuds"_


 
  
  
 WRT impressions being removed, I have always been advised, by audiologists, to make 'yawning' motions with my jaw whilst each impression is being removed, and that seems to relieve any pressure or vacuum successfully. As ever, YMMV


----------



## Furco

xymordos said:


> What does the XBA driver look like? I'm curious


 
 Here's the XBA, actually just so I don't pollute this forum with misinformation, the model/serial# on the BAs are Sony A8R9DU and A8R98L.  I hesitate to call them "A8R9's" since these appear to be serial or lot numbers (e.g. similar to a matched set).  The frequency response on the left and right were nearly identical which is testament to well made earphones.  Here a pic of the drivers:  CI on top, DTEC in middle and Sony at the bottom.  It's sound port in on it's face and doesn't have a spout so I either need to carefully glue a tube to it or utilize the one that was used in the XBA-C10iP.
  

  
  
 That Sony driver is a screamer!  Here's a frequency response graph of each of these drivers I plotted using pink noise.
  

  
 The CI (yellow) has the loudest low frequencies which is obviously host this driver is marketed, while the DTEC (green) has good bass with good mids.  That little Sony absolutely kills it at the high frequency range.  I'm not sure I have an explanation for the spike at 125Hz or the drop at 4kHz for each of the drivers other than to blame my test rig.  I know if push the drivers closer to the mic, that 4kHz spike levels out nicely.  One thing became quite clear with working on the Sony driver, because it has those ribbon cables, they are very unforgiving in terms of moving them around (e.g. putting them in FR rig, pulling them out, connecting them to tubes, changing tubes, pairing with CI and putting back in FR rig...etc.....).  I've had to perform brain surgery TWICE already.  I don't think it can take another lobotomy.  
  

  
 After this most recent operation, I coated it in UV resin.  Hopefully, this will be last of the breakages. I'll probably pick up some WBFKs since they seem more readily available than dirt cheap XBA-C10's  
  
 Anyone want to see more graphs of the effects of tube diameter, length, cross overs on the different drivers?  I've got those as well but they are to be taken with a hefty pinch of salt considering I don't do this for a living, nor have a certified/calibrated IEC coupler.


----------



## Furco

acain said:


> Believe me I did my own and I was nervous. For the price that some audiologist charge its well worth just having them to it.


 
  
 I did my own impressions as well after spending 2 weeks doing research and testing before I actually bit the bullet and made them.  Was I nervous?  YES!  Was I worried that the material or method I was going to use was harmful in any way?  No.  Sounds hypocritical, now that I read what I just wrote.  But what I also know is that I had a simple repeatable process that I tested and practiced and developed confidence in.  And for me, I mitigated as much risk as I needed in order to feel safe about doing it.      
  
 I actually looked into making my own custom IEMs about 8 years ago and I can tell you for certain, I didn't do it because there wasn't the wealth of information that there is today about this stuff, including making your own impressions.


----------



## acain

That Sony BA is small was it easy to take out of the original shell it came in?


----------



## Xymordos

Wow they look very interesting. I'd like to try to use one but I wouldn't be able to find out the impedance and stuff for the driver to design crossovers :\


----------



## CMOS1138

I have had impressions taken by an audiologist and have done it myself. YMMV but I did not feel that the process was any safer when done by a professional and the resulting impressions were definitely of higher quality when I did it myself. 
  
 Some safety tips for others who decide to go the self impressions rout.
  
 1) choose an oto block that will fill your ear, you don't want to use one that is too small for your ear and allows impressions material past. Conversely, if it is too large, you won't be able to fit it deep enough for a proper impressions.
  
 2) Don't keep pushing the oto block if you feel pain of any kind. remember that everyone's ears are different and some people do not have long ear canals. You only need the impression to get to the 2nd bend in order to get a proper seal, anything past that is not truly needed.
  
 3) Expel all air from the plunger before inserting it into your ear. A great deal of effort is required to push impression material through the delivery plunger and if any air pockets remain, you could end up delivering a high pressure burst of air that will at the very least be extremely painful and could definitely cause significant harm. impression material sets up quickly but it is crucial to take a moment to make sure there is no air in the plunger. For longer working time with the impression material, refrigerate it for at least an hour before making the impression because it sets up slower when it is cold.
  
 Anyone else have more safety tips to add?


----------



## MuZo2

What do you do with sticky stuff left after curing due to oxidation?


----------



## CMOS1138

muzo2 said:


> What do you do with sticky stuff left after curing due to oxidation?


 
 you can either wipe it off with isopropyl alcohol or, depending on the type of UV gel you are using, you may be able to fully cure the surface with a long UV exposure. Try leaving the shell in UV light for 15 to 20 minutes and see if it works.


----------



## Furco

I'm not a audiologist, so take the following advice for what it's worth:
  
 * Watch videos of people getting impressions done
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=getting+ear+impressions
  
 * Read this:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/578855/things-to-consider-before-getting-your-custom-iem-impressions-done-the-perfect-fit#post_7871678
  
 * Watch more videos again a few days later. You'll  notice things about the process you didn't notice before.
 * Read the instructions on the impression material twice and make sure you understand them fully.
 * Carefully explore your inner ear using a q-tip, attempting to find out how deep it is.  I have, on occasion, touched my ear drum too forcefully so I'm familiar with the sensation of when I'm touching it.  It's not something I do regularly but being 41 years told, I've done it a few times in my life.   
Being familiar with your ear is sort of important when placing the oto-block (ear dam).  In my experience, this is the most difficult/dangerous part of the entire process.  
       + If the oto-block isn't deep enough, you get shallow impressions.
       + If it's too deep, you may feel pain or discomfort when the impression material is being injected in the inner ear.
       + If the oto-block is too big and you use it anyway, you may experience pain/discomfort when trying to remove the impressions.  
       + If it's too small, the impression material may push the oto-block up against your ear drum causing pain/discomfort/damage.  I'm not sure how realistic it is for the impression material to actually seep behind an oto-block that is too small since the material is fairly viscous in my experience.  
  
 In the true spirit of DIY, I made my own ear dam using dental floss and a foam ear plug.  I cut the ear plug into a third and I threaded the floss through the center of it twice.  I then tested the tear strength of the ear plug and was satisfied that the entire dam would not detach from the floss.  I compressed the dam and used a q-tip to place it deep into my inner ear.  I waited 5 minutes for the foam plug to fully expand.  I gently tugged on the floss to verify the block was securely in my canal.  Then I REMOVED it!  And I did it all over again; in both ears.  I can't stress enough the importance of getting as much experience as you can if you're going to try this yourself.  Placing and removing the oto-block a few times gives you that confidence for when you're going to do it for real.  If I thought there was a risk that the foam plug would tear away from the floss leaving it stuck in my ear, I wouldn't have attempted it.
  

  
  
* Make sure you mix up excess material and don't be cheap trying to use "just enough".
 * Use a syringe with a large bore to make it easier to inject the molding material
 * Use a long spout on your syringe so you can easily fill your canal starting from the ear dam and slowly working your way out.
 * Take your time; don't rush it.
 * Mix up a test batch of material and practice pushing it through t he syringe to get a sense of how easy or difficult it is.  You may be surprised.  Mixing up a test batch will also give you an idea of your working time.  You really need to have experience with how quickly the material you are using sets-up.  At some point, you may not be able to push material through the syringe because it's too think. 
 * Rub some material on the inside of your forearm and leave it there for 10 - 15 minutes.  The skin in this area tends to be very sensitive and if you're allergic to the impression material or if the material you are using is incompatible with YOU, your forearm may start to get red or itchy.  
 * Do a "dry" run with an empty syringe so you get a sense of how far the tip of the syringe needs to go into the canal and how your're going to hold the syringe so you can actuate the plunger with some force, if necessary. 
* Do the injection it in front of a mirror; having a visual of what your doing seems to help.
 * Follow the directions for how long it take for the impression  material to set. Removing them too early can create numerous problems; letting them in your ears for a couple minutes longer than specified usually doesn't cause a problem for removal.
 * When removing the impressions, take it slow.  It may take a minute or 2 to get it our of your ear.  
 * The suction needs to be broken between the impression and your inner ear.  Gently pulling on the string connected to the oto-block along with the solidified impression can help break the suction.  Also opening your mouth very wide and move your jaw from side to side can also help.
 * Because your inner ear is somewhat curved like a screw-thread, you'll most likely need to rotate the impressions as you pull them out.  For your right ear, if there was a clock face pained on it, you would rotate the impression ever so slightly clockwise with your right hand.  For your left ear, if there was a clock face painted on it, you would rotate the impression counter-clockwise with your left hand.  Watch some YouTube videos  if you can't visualize it  
 * The oto-block may or may not come out with the impression.  If it does, great!  If not, slowly pull it out using the string connected to it. You may feel some suction when trying to pull it out.  Just take it very slow and gently while at the same time opening your mouth wide and then closing it a couple times to try and break the suction. 
   
 There should be absolutely no pain in this process.  Pressure = MAYBE but definitely not pain.  "Discomfort" has a personal definition.
  
 Be Informed!  Be Safe!


----------



## acain

This is the light box I made with Nitrogen hook up. New molds made from hydrocolloid this stuff is pretty clear. My first shell after a couple of test parts.


----------



## TheoS53

acain said:


> This is the light box I made with Nitrogen hook up. New molds made from hydrocolloid this stuff is pretty clear. My first shell after a couple of test parts.


 
 Looks awesome. I'm in the process of making a UV box too.
  
 Quick question, I understand the need to use something like gelatin to make a negative mold...but obviously it needs to be thick enough to hold the structure....why not just use less gelatin to keep it clear, but use a clear plastic cup?


----------



## Xymordos

The universals I made with WBFK drivers seems very sensitive to positioning in the ear. If I push one side a bit further in the ear than the other side, the sound changes extremely dramatically than other earphones I own.


----------



## Furco

xymordos said:


> The universals I made with WBFK drivers seems very sensitive to positioning in the ear. If I push one side a bit further in the ear than the other side, the sound changes extremely dramatically than other earphones I own.



I wonder why thats happening. And bends or kinks in the tube? I was thinking about getting some wbfk's but from what I've been reading, they are super temperamental to work with.


----------



## Furco

theos53 said:


> Looks awesome. I'm in the process of making a UV box too.
> 
> Quick question, I understand the need to use something like gelatin to make a negative mold...but obviously it needs to be thick enough to hold the structure....why not just use less gelatin to keep it clear, but use a clear plastic cup?




Great question. Here's my take on that. Plastic may or may not block the UV wavelength needed to cure the resin you are using. The whole challenge that we're all accepting is to find materials and a process that yields a good result. We know that Knox gelatin works and ClearBallistics gel. We also know that the hydrocolloid from http://www.lightningenterprises.com works. There are probably a few other mold materials that will work with UV curing resins. Give the plastic cup a try and let us know if it works.


----------



## Furco

That setup looks legit!! Very cool! Did you achieve "dry" shells using nitrogen or were they still tacky? It looks like you cooked your shells a little too long. From my eyes they look very thick but I love how clear they are.

Here's my my UV curing chamber (version 2.0). I put a lid on top when I'm doing shells. 


I built it using 3 x 60W spiral UV Black Lights (Feit) and some aluminum flashing I polished to a near mirror finish. I did try using a 365nm 3W LED flashlight but it didn't cure the UV resin at all. 

Here are my first set of shells. Not pretty but they are functional. It validates that I can indeed make shells.


....and like many of us, I have tried and tried and tried and finally achieved a modicum of success:


----------



## TheoS53

furco said:


> Great question. Here's my take on that. Plastic may or may not block the UV wavelength needed to cure the resin you are using. The whole challenge that we're all accepting is to find materials and a process that yields a good result. We know that Knox gelatin works and ClearBallistics gel. We also know that the hydrocolloid from http://www.lightningenterprises.com works. There are probably a few other mold materials that will work with UV curing resins. Give the plastic cup a try and let us know if it works.


 
 I actually decided to do it with small glass cups. Bought some candles and removed the wax...will let you guys know how well it works, if at all


----------



## Furco

Just wipe some UV resin on the inside of the cup, put a piece of cardboard on top to prevent the resin from curing from the inside out, and then shine your UV light through the glass for 60 seconds to see if the resin hardens. That should give you a quick answer if the glass allows the right wavelengths through or not. Good luck!


----------



## TheoS53

furco said:


> Just wipe some UV resin on the inside of the cup, put a piece of cardboard on top to prevent the resin from curing from the inside out, and then shine your UV light through the glass for 60 seconds to see if the resin hardens. That should give you a quick answer if the glass allows the right wavelengths through or not. Good luck!


 
 Once I get the curing chamber done I'll give it a go.
  
 Huge favour to ask please. Could someone with DIY or brand name ciems take a bunch of photos at various angles please? I cannot for the life of me figure out exactly what shape it needs to be, especially the part where the cable needs to go


----------



## acain

theos53 said:


> Looks awesome. I'm in the process of making a UV box too.
> 
> Quick question, I understand the need to use something like gelatin to make a negative mold...but obviously it needs to be thick enough to hold the structure....why not just use less gelatin to keep it clear, but use a clear plastic cup?


 
 When you go and take the impressions out it might not hold up. Give it a try gelatin is really cheap.


----------



## Furco

theos53 said:


> Once I get the curing chamber done I'll give it a go.
> 
> Huge favour to ask please. Could someone with DIY or brand name ciems take a bunch of photos at various angles please? I cannot for the life of me figure out exactly what shape it needs to be, especially the part where the cable needs to go




Here a good place to start. Just page through the pics. 

http://www.head-fi.org/t/454174/iems-reshelled-into-custom-molds-80-in-the-usa-triplefi-10-se530-etc-from-fisher-hearing


----------



## acain

furco said:


> That setup looks legit!! Very cool! Did you achieve "dry" shells using nitrogen or were they still tacky? It looks like you cooked your shells a little too long. From my eyes they look very thick but I love how clear they are.
> 
> Here's my my UV curing chamber (version 2.0). I put a lid on top when I'm doing shells.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Nice set up they are really thick I did leave them into long.  The side that was against the mold came out a little tacky but the inside came out really smooth and no residue at all.  I have to use a little more  Nitrogen I only used a little that size bottle will go fast. I have to put a gasket around the door a lot of gas leaks out fast.
  
 Is that nail gel you are using if so what kind is it?


----------



## acain

theos53 said:


> I actually decided to do it with small glass cups. Bought some candles and removed the wax...will let you guys know how well it works, if at all


 
 I hope it works out, if it does it would be a really cheap way to make a mold. And to get the materials all you have to do is go to the grocery store. Keep track off how much Gelatin you use, so if it doesn't work you know how much more to add and you can let us know the ratio off water to gelatin to use.


----------



## TheoS53

furco said:


> Great question. Here's my take on that. Plastic may or may not block the UV wavelength needed to cure the resin you are using. The whole challenge that we're all accepting is to find materials and a process that yields a good result. We know that Knox gelatin works and ClearBallistics gel. We also know that the hydrocolloid from http://www.lightningenterprises.com works. There are probably a few other mold materials that will work with UV curing resins. Give the plastic cup a try and let us know if it works.


 
 where did you see hydrocolloid on the LE page? been searching for that, but to no avail


----------



## acain

theos53 said:


> where did you see hydrocolloid on the LE page? been searching for that, but to no avail




Its not on there web site you have to call and ask for it. They sell it buy the pound.


----------



## MuZo2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJJJZ4jfZy8
 Looks like good duplicating material


----------



## acain

My daughter wants me to make her a pair of CIEMs she listens to Ariana Grande and EDM and other crap like that. Can anyone recommend a single full range driver that has good bass response. Does the ED alone have good lows?


----------



## briancortez2112

Smooth-On Encapso K FAIL......
 Water clear flexible rubber..., but crumbles way too easy...


----------



## acain

If I were to use the ED driver by itself as a single CIEM what color filter would give me the most lows? Trying to make a single driver ciem with good lows. Thanks for any help.


----------



## acain

briancortez2112 said:


> Smooth-On Encapso K FAIL......
> Water clear flexible rubber..., but crumbles way too easy...
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## briancortez2112

Yeahh, I guess I'm going to call them and see. Hate for it to go to waste.


----------



## Xymordos

Can't be kinks in the tube, I use a straight stainless steel tube that can't be bent.


----------



## MuZo2

cmos1138 said:


> you can either wipe it off with isopropyl alcohol or, depending on the type of UV gel you are using, you may be able to fully cure the surface with a long UV exposure. Try leaving the shell in UV light for 15 to 20 minutes and see if it works.


 

 Tried it doesnot work left it for 20mins and still its sticky. I am using egger UV.


----------



## TheoS53

Gentlemen,
  
 I can confirm that my idea for using glass candle cups works very well indeed. I purchased a 54W Royal Nails curing thingy, and the cups fit in perfectly. I only used a little bit of the Fotoplast to test. Initially I bought the nails curing thing so I could rip it apart to make a curing chamber, as I thought the cups wouldn't fit in. But since they fit perfectly, I don't think there's any need to build a chamber.
  My last step before I test to make an actual shell is going to be to mount a mirror at the opening so that all sides get even exposure


----------



## acain

muzo2 said:


> Tried it doesnot work left it for 20mins and still its sticky. I am using egger UV.


 

 I sanded it off and it was fine or I put a Clear UV Gel top coat right over the sticky stuff and it cured all the way.


----------



## MuZo2

acain said:


> If I were to use the ED driver by itself as a single CIEM what color filter would give me the most lows? Trying to make a single driver ciem with good lows. Thanks for any help.


 

 I think green filter and 10ohm resistor.


----------



## MuZo2

briancortez2112 said:


>


 
 That would have been nice material.


----------



## Xymordos

muzo2 said:


> I think green filter and 10ohm resistor.


 
 If you say MOST lows...yellow filter would. But that'll cut out a lot of other things.


----------



## CMOS1138

acain said:


> If I were to use the ED driver by itself as a single CIEM what color filter would give me the most lows? Trying to make a single driver ciem with good lows. Thanks for any help.


 
  
 The filters progressively block more and more of the high frequency. I would recommend purchasing a range of filters (at least white, brown, green, and red) and experimenting with them to find the one she likes best, you can take the filter in and out of a standard sound tube easily so long as you insert them with the empty side facing out so that you can use a small tool to hook them out. Make the CIEM with no filter at all, and then insert the filter into the end of the sound port after construction, once she pikes the one she likes, you can push it in deeper to protect it from wax.
  
 For my ED single driver set I use a white filter because I wanted a bright and detailed sound. Even though it is definitely bright, the base response is still nice to my ears and it sounds similar but not identical to my Etymotic HF5.


----------



## acain

cmos1138 said:


> The filters progressively block more and more of the high frequency. I would recommend purchasing a range of filters (at least white, brown, green, and red) and experimenting with them to find the one she likes best, you can take the filter in and out of a standard sound tube easily so long as you insert them with the empty side facing out so that you can use a small tool to hook them out. Make the CIEM with no filter at all, and then insert the filter into the end of the sound port after construction, once she pikes the one she likes, you can push it in deeper to protect it from wax.
> 
> For my ED single driver set I use a white filter because I wanted a bright and detailed sound. Even though it is definitely bright, the base response is still nice to my ears and it sounds similar but not identical to my Etymotic HF5.




Thanks for the information, did you use a resistor at all?


----------



## TheoS53

acain said:


> Thanks for the information, did you use a resistor at all?


 
 Which ED driver is this? I'm thinking of making some ciems for my gf for christmas, and the ED sounds like it would work really well


----------



## MuZo2

theos53 said:


> Which ED driver is this? I'm thinking of making some ciems for my gf for christmas, and the ED sounds like it would work really well


 

 29689


----------



## MuZo2

cmos1138 said:


> The filters progressively block more and more of the high frequency.


 
 – 680, 1000 and 1500 ohms are typically used to smooth response
 – 3300 and 4700 ohms dampers are used for acoustic low pass on
 woofers


----------



## TheoS53

Right gents, I've modified the front of my nail salon curer with a piece of mirror.

  

  

  



 Busy making a negative mold and will attempt to make my first shell tomorrow. Wish me luck


----------



## acain

That is the Ed number


----------



## acain

theos53 said:


> Right gents, I've modified the front of my nail salon curer with a piece of mirror.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## CMOS1138

acain said:


> Thanks for the information, did you use a resistor at all?


 
 I did not.


----------



## TheoS53

acain said:


>


 
 Yeah it's quite a beast. Got it off Amazon for like $50 about a week ago


----------



## TheoS53

Ok, so first attempt was a bit of a fail (as expected). The gelatin didn't hold up during curing, I guess from the mild heat.


----------



## Furco

theos53 said:


> Ok, so first attempt was a bit of a fail (as expected). The gelatin didn't hold up during curing, I guess from the mild heat.


 
  
 You're getting closer and that's a fantastic 1st attempt!  I can tell you form experience the part that is missing resin is a pain in the butt to get right. It's an odd shaped area that is right in the middle of your mold which means it's cures the slowest compared to the other areas.  It's just a matter of figuring out the procedure that's going to get that area to cure based on your mold material and curing chamber.  Maybe experiment with sticking that half in the light box for 60 - 120 seconds and then putting the whole thing in for another 60s or whatever times make sense based on your tests. 
  
 @acain -- how resilient is that hydrocolloid?  Can you remove a cured shell from it without tearing/ripping/breaking/crumbling the mold?  Does cleaning it with, say, isopropyl alcohol or acetone, dissolve it?
  
 I've been having fun with generating impedance curves for the CI-30120, DTEC-30265 and the Sony driver:
  

  
  
 Based on the published impedances from Knowles for the DTEC and CI, my measurements are within the tolerances of their specs.  With this information, I'm hoping to demystify why the drivers are reacting they way they are with and without crossovers.
  
 I'm also experimenting with acoustic damper materials such as wool and various densities of foam though I'll probably also purchase some commercial ones to test as well.


----------



## acain

The shells come out of the hydrocolloid really easy, its very slippery. I even used wax on my impressions and the wax was still on the impressions when I took them out. I made 3 shells without it ripping at all. Never tried to clean them I just blew into them after each use and wiped the outside with a lint free cloth.


----------



## acain

Hers is my first attempt of wiring, it was very SCARY i made everyone leave me alone when I started to solder. Sorry for the bad pictures.
 .
  
  
 Here is a blue shell that my daughter actually made and, then coated with Dreve Lack 3.


----------



## acain

theos53 said:


> Ok, so first attempt was a bit of a fail (as expected). The gelatin didn't hold up during curing, I guess from the mild heat.




The spot that is missing material happened to me I used I led flashle and cured that one area. I actually made a couple good shells just using a flashlight. They look great for the first ones.


----------



## acain

I still have a proe getting a hollow nozzle, so I drill them out its not that hard if the shell is transparent. I kind of like having a thicker nozzle anyway I feel safer that it won't shatter in my ear.


----------



## CMOS1138

acain said:


> I still have a proe getting a hollow nozzle, so I drill them out its not that hard if the shell is transparent. I kind of like having a thicker nozzle anyway I feel safer that it won't shatter in my ear.


 
  
 The hollow nozzle is tricky because that part of the shell cures more quickly than the rest of the shell. recently I have been making my shells so the canal / Nozzle is the correct thickness and still hollow and the body is thin and then painting the inside of the body with UV gel to add strength. Even with this method I had to do a bit of drilling with my most recent set since I am using 3 tubes.


----------



## CMOS1138

For anyone who has struggled with alignment of the connector, I found it helpful to look at peoples ears (inconspicuously) while thinking about how to line up the connectors. I have found that on most people, the part of the ear called Crus of helix that is a ridge that separates the upper and lower concha as you can see in the diagram, runs parallel with the side of the head. I use a small screw driver on the outside of my shell running through this ridge area as a guide so that I can make the cable connections purfectly lined up with the side of the head so that they neither stick out nor push against the head.


----------



## acain

My shells are done finally after many failures, thanks to my daughter she is very crafty and did most of the shells. We spent the whole weekend making shells, by the end of last night we were ready to rip each others head off but we still had a lot of fun. She wasn't happy with the Paracord  I have for the cable sleeving, she told me it will start fray after a lot of use. Got to love kids but she is the reason I go to work every day.
  
 I am using 2 drivers and my nozzle is to small for 2 tubes, I tried to make a Y adapter by heat shrinking 2 tubes into 1, it did not work out to well. I ordered smaller diameter tubing but I think it still is going to be a pain in the ass. I might make the nozzle shorter because the closer to the shell the wider it gets. I didn't think this part was going to be so hard.
  
 If anybody has any good ideas I would love to hear any.


----------



## acain

furco said:


> You're getting closer and that's a fantastic 1st attempt!  I can tell you form experience the part that is missing resin is a pain in the butt to get right. It's an odd shaped area that is right in the middle of your mold which means it's cures the slowest compared to the other areas.  It's just a matter of figuring out the procedure that's going to get that area to cure based on your mold material and curing chamber.  Maybe experiment with sticking that half in the light box for 60 - 120 seconds and then putting the whole thing in for another 60s or whatever times make sense based on your tests.
> 
> @acain -- how resilient is that hydrocolloid?  Can you remove a cured shell from it without tearing/ripping/breaking/crumbling the mold?  Does cleaning it with, say, isopropyl alcohol or acetone, dissolve it?
> 
> ...


 
  
  
  
 Let me know how you make out with 3 wholes for the tubes in the canal port.


----------



## CMOS1138

acain said:


> I am using 2 drivers and my nozzle is to small for 2 tubes, I tried to make a Y adapter by heat shrinking 2 tubes into 1, it did not work out to well. I ordered smaller diameter tubing but I think it still is going to be a pain in the ass. I might make the nozzle shorter because the closer to the shell the wider it gets. I didn't think this part was going to be so hard.
> 
> If anybody has any good ideas I would love to hear any.


 
  
 You can fit 2 of the smallest diameter heat shrink tubing in the same space taken by 1 #12 acoustic tube.


----------



## acain

cmos1138 said:


> You can fit 2 of the smallest diameter heat shrink tubing in the same space taken by 1 #12 acoustic tube.


 
  
  
 Would I stick the heat shrink tubing into the acoustic tubing so it would be like an extension of the tube, or do you just use the heat shrink connected right to the BA?


----------



## CMOS1138

acain said:


> Would I stick the heat shrink tubing into the acoustic tubing so it would be like an extension of the tube, or do you just use the heat shrink connected right to the BA?


 
 Either way will work but I usually attach the heat shrink tubing directly to the BA. Keep in mind that you will probably not be able to fit dampers into the heatshrink tubing since it is slightly smaller internal diameter so If you want to use a damper you will need to use a combined tub and you won't be able to change the damper after construction.


----------



## MuZo2

acain said:


> The shells come out of the hydrocolloid really easy, its very slippery. I even used wax on my impressions and the wax was still on the impressions when I took them out. I made 3 shells without it ripping at all. Never tried to clean them I just blew into them after each use and wiped the outside with a lint free cloth.


 
 What wax did you use?


----------



## Xymordos

Try just drilling one big hole and then fill the gaps up with acrylic after you stick the tubes in.


----------



## acain

muzo2 said:


> What wax did you use?




I used all purpose wax from a craft store.


----------



## acain

Thanks to everyone for all the great ideas.


----------



## TheoS53

Ok so I've tried to make another negative with gelatin, but its just not working very well...which got me thinking...

Some of you guys have had luck with Knox gelatin. But not all gelatin is the same, the majority of the brands use pork products, but since I live in an Islamic country the gelatin won't be made from pork products, which may explain why it isn't working as well. 

Anyways, I've gotten in touch with Lightning enterprises to get some ballistics gelatin..hopefully I'll have better luck with that


----------



## acain

theos53 said:


> Ok so I've tried to make another negative with gelatin, but its just not working very well...which got me thinking...
> 
> Some of you guys have had luck with Knox gelatin. But not all gelatin is the same, the majority of the brands use pork products, but since I live in an Islamic country the gelatin won't be made from pork products, which may explain why it isn't working as well.
> 
> Anywayrs, I've gotten in touch with Lightning enterprises to get some ballistics gelatin..hopefully I'll have better luck with that




Fort Knox gel to work you got to add just the right amount of glycerin you can get glycerin in the first aid isle at pharmacy. The hydrocolloid just make sure you don't heat up too fast.


----------



## briancortez2112

I just made this UV led cure box!
 Thing is pretty bright, draws 68watts from the wall including the 12v dc converter.


----------



## CMOS1138

theos53 said:


> Ok so I've tried to make another negative with gelatin, but its just not working very well...which got me thinking...
> 
> Some of you guys have had luck with Knox gelatin. But not all gelatin is the same, the majority of the brands use pork products, but since I live in an Islamic country the gelatin won't be made from pork products, which may explain why it isn't working as well.
> 
> Anyways, I've gotten in touch with Lightning enterprises to get some ballistics gelatin..hopefully I'll have better luck with that


 
 I think the problem is not the animal whose bones are being used to make the gelatin, the problem is you are not using enough gelatin. Also remember to keep the gelatin as cold as you can prior to use.


----------



## acain

briancortez2112 said:


> I just made this UV led cure box!
> Thing is pretty bright, draws 68watts from the wall including the 12v dc converter.


 
  
  
 That's really nice how does it cure the acrylic, I was going to use LEDs but got a nail UV for really cheap. I have an LED flashlight and it cures the acrylic really fast.


----------



## Furco

briancortez2112 said:


> I just made this UV led cure box!
> Thing is pretty bright, draws 68watts from the wall including the 12v dc converter.




Wow! If you build one big enough I'm sure you'll be able to go back in time! Actually, this is the same idea I had for my curing chamber version 3.0. 

I've spent about 4 hours today trying to tune my drivers. Ugh! I'm still not satisfied but I'm learning a lot about mids and high frequencies. 

@TheoS53 - you're right about gelatin, it's an animal based produce. The biggest problem with using gelatin is that each mold is a once-and-done, meaning you have to make a new mold for each set of shells you want to make and in the early stages of prototyping, cheap reusable gelatin seems to be the thing everyone starts with before they graduate to more resilient materials. Stuff like ballistics gel and hydrocolloid are convenient, the molds can be used multiple times and are 10 times more forgiving than gelatin. But the lessons you learned using gelatin are definitely applicable to future efforts.

@acain - "Fort Knox" gelatin sounds like some serious stuff....lol. I'm very impressed with those blue shells . Very glossy and clear. As far as fitting 3 tubes, I've been trying multiple methods, including 1 large + 2 small; 2 large with 1 being shared by the DTEC and CI via a y-splitter configuration. I'm sure I'm going to be trying 3 small tubes at some point in my quest to tune the drivers. Because when I change tubes, I inevitably change my crossovers and finally my dampers.


----------



## acain

furco said:


> Wow! If you build one big enough I'm sure you'll be able to go back in time! Actually, this is the same idea I had for my curing chamber version 3.0.
> 
> I've spent about 4 hours today trying to tune my drivers. Ugh! I'm still not satisfied but I'm learning a lot about mids and high frequencies.
> 
> ...


 
  
 FORT Knox I just noticed that LOL. I just ordered thin tubing from Westone Hearing Aid supplies. They also have a lot of other stuff like bonding cement Y splitters for tubes and a lot of other stuff.


----------



## acain

I found a good way to stretch tubing if you want to use 1 tube for 2 drivers.  If anyone knows those metal compression C rings that have to be compressed to be installed, you can use that tool to spread the tubing open. I will post a picture of it when I get a chance.


----------



## CMOS1138

acain said:


> FORT Knox I just noticed that LOL. I just ordered thin tubing from Westone Hearing Aid supplies. They also have a lot of other stuff like bonding cement Y splitters for tubes and a lot of other stuff.


 
  
 Tubing cement is worthless. I ordered some when I first started this project and found that it has about the same adhesiveness as water. It can't be used to connect tubing to drivers, shells, or other tubing.


----------



## acain

I am glad I only bought tubing thanks for the information.


----------



## acain

briancortez2112 said:


> I just made this UV led cure box!
> Thing is pretty bright, draws 68watts from the wall including the 12v dc converter.







Whats the wave length of your leds?


----------



## briancortez2112

They are about 395nm, i wanted 365nm but i could not find anythat came in a led strip like that. Its working just fine with all of the acyrics that i tried, cures fast.


----------



## TheoS53

cmos1138 said:


> I think the problem is not the animal whose bones are being used to make the gelatin, the problem is you are not using enough gelatin. Also remember to keep the gelatin as cold as you can prior to use.




I think I used plenty enough...2 sachets per 125ml of water


----------



## TheoS53

briancortez2112 said:


> I just made this UV led cure box!
> Thing is pretty bright, draws 68watts from the wall including the 12v dc converter.




That looks great. Good job


----------



## acain

Its great to see so many people posting pictures. It helps everyone for ideas, and visually seeing something then trying to explain it is so much easier. A picture is worth a thousand words.


----------



## MuZo2

briancortez2112 said:


> They are about 395nm, i wanted 365nm but i could not find anythat came in a led strip like that. Its working just fine with all of the acyrics that i tried, cures fast.


 

 Did you make any shells?


----------



## MuZo2

theos53 said:


>


 
 You can use agar agar, if you find it in Chinese grocery shops near you.


----------



## acain

I am using the CI for my lows, how far away should the damper be placed from the BA driver?


----------



## CMOS1138

After further listening I have added brown dampers to the DTEC ports on my latest set (CI low, DTEC mid, RAB high) and I am liking the results. Sound is nicely balanced with a slight warmth. RAB is doing a good job of providing the High extension I was looking for. I think we can say that this little driver is an excellent and cheap alternative to WBFK.
  
 acain, for damper placement, the closer the damper is to the end of the sound tube, the more effective it will be. The problem you face when placing them right at the end is moisture and wax build up. I occasionally have to take the dampers out to clean and allow to air out for a bit on the sets that I have dampers right on the end.


----------



## acain

I thought the RAB was a woofer.


----------



## Xymordos

RAB is a full range driver iirc.
  
 I didn't really like putting the filters on. It seemed to make the sound slightly muddier. I'm trying to find ways of implementing acoustic filters better.


----------



## Silverprout

xymordos said:


> RAB is a full range driver iirc.
> 
> I didn't really like putting the filters on. It seemed to make the sound slightly muddier. I'm trying to find ways of implementing acoustic filters better.


 
  
 No filter at all, just a Lpad on the 13mm dynamic woofer... 15$ of drivers, awesome for the price.


----------



## Furco

acain said:


> I found a good way to stretch tubing if you want to use 1 tube for 2 drivers.  If anyone knows those metal compression C rings that have to be compressed to be installed, you can use that tool to spread the tubing open. I will post a picture of it when I get a chance.


 
  
 Or you could just re-purpose part of a broken hanger and bend it as such.  Cram a #13 or #12 tube onto it and gently heat it with a lighter or heat gun to set the tube:
  
  
  

  
 Here's the Y-splitter I made for my CI and DTEC to share.  I recognize that it's probably not a great idea for a woofer and mid-range to share the same tube given for the potential of attenuation of frequencies but I was already committed at this point and wanted to do some testing to see what the frequency response was going to be.  

  
 In other tube related endeavors, I took off the Y-splitter and glued on a 20mmx0.5mm tube using UV resin.  Here I'm using a needle point to position the resin:
  

  
 Post curing.  Not too shabby!

  
 So where did I find 0.5mm ID tubing?  As you can probably guess form looking at the tube, it's speaker wire insulation:
  

  
  
 Until I can source some smooth 0.5 ID pliable acoustic tubing, I'll be using this stuff, assuming of course that I'll be putting this size in my cIEMs.
  
 I'm going to try to let the DTEC have a full voice, shouting through a #13 tube.  Problem is that 1.93mm ID tube doesn't really hold itself onto the 1.5mm nozzle on the DTEC too well.  I fashioned a retaining ring to create something of a reducer between the DTEC nozzle and tubing:
  

  
 I laid down a bead of Loctite GO2 using a pin head and clamped everything in my 3rd hands.  Trying to use UV resin in this instance didn't go so well; I tried -- TWICE!  The tube slips off the nozzle too quickly and also, the resin makes the surface of the nozzle and tube that much more slippery.  The glue should work out fairly well.  I can always go back in with resin once the Loctite sets:
  

  
  
  
 One thing I would recommend people buy is a 10x jewelers loop.  They don't cost all that much but it makes working with these miniature components a breeze, especially if you're trying to fix broken solder pads   Though I will be honest, trying to solder with it on takes some practice as you don't have any depth perception with 1 loop and having your nose so damn close to the heating element on your soldering wand is a little nerve wracking.
  

  
 I'm abandoning incorporating the Sony driver into my cIEMs.  I just don't have the experience to deal with this many drivers right now.
  
 --Cheers!


----------



## acain

Great pictures thanks for all the information.


----------



## CMOS1138

Silverprout
 How did you get 2 ED drivers and 2 dynamic drivers for $15?


----------



## CMOS1138

> Problem is that 1.93mm ID tube doesn't really hold itself onto the 1.5mm nozzle on the DTEC too well.  I fashioned a retaining ring to create something of a reducer between the DTEC nozzle and tubing:
> 
> ​Innovative solution. I have never even tried to get the tube to attach to the nozzle, instead I simply glue the tube to the body of the driver. It works well but I am exposing my hands to more UV light than I would like.
> 
> ...


----------



## Furco

cmos1138 said:


>


 
  
 The major reason for abandoning the Sony driver is that I fear it won't  survive a few more weeks of handling.  I'm even noticing the wires on the CI and DTEC I have are starting to fray, and that's with the strain relief I've setup.  I'm less concerned with the Knowles drivers since they have solder pads and if my leads break, soldering new ones onto the pads is a 5 minutes operation.  However, on the Sony, the damn ribbon cable just isn't built for weeks and weeks of handling that I'm doing with it.
  
 I know I can get some decent sound out of the CI and DTEC so I'll continue here.  I need more experience with tuning the drivers, looking at the response curves, listening through a shell, and trying to identify:
 * What's overpowering?  Why?
 * What's veiled?  Why?
 * What's missing?  Why?
  
 And then answer the ultimate questions: How do I fix that?  Change my crossovers? Tube length? Tube diameter? Damper? Add another driver?
  
 It's a lot to consider....
  
 Thanks for bringing me back to reality with suggesting coalescing all the individual tubes into one.  I have a tendency to be a purest so it's good to get a slap in the face every once in a while telling me to "Snap out of it and keep it simple, Stupid!" 
  
I've been doing some heavy reading today about Flecher-Munson curves (a.k.a. equal-loudness contours).    Evidently, boosting bass and treble to some degree seems necessary with IEMs along with simulating the effect the outer ear has on frequencies in-and-around 2700Hz by boosting that frequency in IEMs.


----------



## Dan Jarros

Hello all. I been making CIEMs and doing posts here for a while. I just had a fairly dangerous experience and wanted to pass it along as a public service announcement to all the builders here. I've made a good number of shells now using the mega-sil 2 part impression material as my positive ear mold. I never had a problem until yesterday. I had become pretty confident is using the material WITHOUT using the foam ear inserts with the string to do deeper casts. Yesterday I was doing new impressions on myself in the same manner as I have done many times but the 2 part mixture failed. After about a half an hour I tried to remove the impressions but it left the gooey silicone deep in both of my ears. No amount of mixing would activate the material I got out of my ears and it remains a gooey blob even now a day later. I sent a sleepless night trying to remove material from my ears in various ways and had to see an ear specialist today to "finish" the job. It was a scary and painful experience that I'll never go through again and hopefully I can keep you from doing the same. I was foolish to use the silicone without the foam inserts but even the specialist said he has had to do full surgeries where he had to cut out the foam because material went around it . 
   I'm really disappointed that a mega-sil could fail like that. I guess always do a small tester amount to make sure it catches before you use it. 
 Good luck,
 Dan


----------



## CMOS1138

Scary story Dan. I am glad it ends with you OK.


----------



## acain

Glad to hear you got all the material out of your ear. I finally started to put the drivers in the shell, trying to get 2  #13 tubes with dampers in a small canal isn't easy at all. I tried to go from #13 to #16 tubing but then the dampers would be set really high. I was going too just use heat shrink but then I would have to rig something for the dampers and then it was to bulky in the shell. Now I know why these are so expensive, it truly is an art form working with such small parts. A couple times I went to install the drivers the tube came off the BA port I finally got the 2 tubes with dampers in the ear canal, it really kicked my ass though. I guess for the first ones I am making I cant expect them to come out flawless. So for all the first timers don't beat yourself up on your first pair don't expect perfection, with practice quality will come.
  
  .


----------



## acain

I didnt know that knowles had different diameter dampers I would have solved all my fitting issues if I had bought the smaller dampers. I guess ill learn from my mistakes. #16 tubing fits perfect on to the BA port. I bought 10ft for .40 cents a foot.


----------



## winternoir

Hi all, I'm back.
  
 I finally got a different kind of clay to mount my BA onto the housing I bought (got them at arts n craft/office supply store), and they works well.
 One thing the store assistant told me that I'm a bit worried about is they are paper based. Eek! Let's home they will hold well in there.
  
 Pics: (how long do I need before I can direct link pix from photobucket anyway?)
 Only the clay: https://www.dropbox.com/s/kwfp52rskeoryum/CameraZOOM-20141116054326446.jpg?dl=0
 With the BA installed: https://www.dropbox.com/s/a73fgksaf0i3e64/CameraZOOM-20141116054340345.jpg?dl=0
  
 I finished them off with some glue and the housing stay together just fine.
 I didn't use any filters or tubing at the end. I just use small(ish) straw (from Caprisonne) to mold the sound passage.
 I currently am using silicone tips (from Razr XT910) and they sound acceptable to my ear (after some EQ-ing). Tried comply tips, but they killed the bass I think.
  
 The sonions do have bass, and the mids and highs are okay (after EQ). But still not what I expected or wanted. I am curious to have them tested regarding their frequency response (the graph I often see when people are testing earphones/headphones). Wonder where can I get them done for free.
  
 In other news, while I was playing a well known brand of playing bricks *cough*Lego*cough* with my son, I got this idea of using the bricks to house both the BA and DD. Their depth of 9mm and length of 3cm should provide plenty of room to accommodate the drivers, right? Have anyone tried it though? And did it work?


----------



## Silverprout

cmos1138 said:


> Silverprout
> How did you get 2 ED drivers and 2 dynamic drivers for $15?


 
 Rab 32063 driver are only 10$, with a 5$ 13mm dynamic driver... 15$ per side.


----------



## MuZo2

dan jarros said:


> Hello all. I been making CIEMs and doing posts here for a while. I just had a fairly dangerous experience and wanted to pass it along as a public service announcement to all the builders here. I've made a good number of shells now using the mega-sil 2 part impression material as my positive ear mold. I never had a problem until yesterday. I had become pretty confident is using the material WITHOUT using the foam ear inserts with the string to do deeper casts. Yesterday I was doing new impressions on myself in the same manner as I have done many times but the 2 part mixture failed. After about a half an hour I tried to remove the impressions but it left the gooey silicone deep in both of my ears. No amount of mixing would activate the material I got out of my ears and it remains a gooey blob even now a day later. I sent a sleepless night trying to remove material from my ears in various ways and had to see an ear specialist today to "finish" the job. It was a scary and painful experience that I'll never go through again and hopefully I can keep you from doing the same. I was foolish to use the silicone without the foam inserts but even the specialist said he has had to do full surgeries where he had to cut out the foam because material went around it .
> I'm really disappointed that a mega-sil could fail like that. I guess always do a small tester amount to make sure it catches before you use it.
> Good luck,
> Dan


 

 Sorry to hear about it. Hope you are doing fine now.
  
 My first post on head-fi was about it
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/581834/word-of-caution-custom-iem-ear-impressions
  
 Thats why I always recommend to go to audiologist for ear impressions.


----------



## Xymordos

I was wondering, if I'm using the HODTEC driver for bass, would BK drivers (such as BK28507) be a good driver for mids? Planning to use SWFK/WBFK as tweeters, but they paired quite poorly with the ED29689 that I usually would like to use - a small change in positioning can cause a big change in phase cancelling.


----------



## AndroidVageta

Perhaps someone here can help me! I just purchased a pair for JH16 Pro Freqphase (for $450 no less!) and was wondering if ANYONE knew ANYONE that could remold these into a UNIVERSAL shell. 
  
 Why? Well for one, resale value on down the line if I choose to sell them (which I probably won't), no fitting issues and constant going back and forth, and just simply because I'd like it more and don't care about them being custom fitted. 
  
 Any tips?


----------



## CMOS1138

Xymordos
 I dont know of anyone who has used the BK driver but DTEC sounds very similar to ED in the mids only louder. perhaps you should try  SWFK/DTEC/HODTEC. ?
  
 AndroidVageta
 If you put JH16 into a universal shell it will not sound the same.


----------



## Xymordos

androidvageta said:


> Perhaps someone here can help me! I just purchased a pair for JH16 Pro Freqphase (for $450 no less!) and was wondering if ANYONE knew ANYONE that could remold these into a UNIVERSAL shell.
> 
> Why? Well for one, resale value on down the line if I choose to sell them (which I probably won't), no fitting issues and constant going back and forth, and just simply because I'd like it more and don't care about them being custom fitted.
> 
> Any tips?


 
  
 I remember that the driver positioning in the FreqPhase version of the JH16 has a lot to do with the perfect phase alignment they have right? If you make it into universal shell I'm sure the entire FreqPhase thing will be messed up.
  


cmos1138 said:


> Xymordos
> I dont know of anyone who has used the BK driver but DTEC sounds very similar to ED in the mids only louder. perhaps you should try  SWFK/DTEC/HODTEC. ?


 
  
 I'm worried that might make the bass too loud. I can also use 37AP015 or 33AL007 as mids.


----------



## acain

I wish Knowles would flare the end of the ports to help hold the tube on. I have been using acrylic to hold the tube on the nozzle, does anyone have suggestions for a better adhesive?


----------



## Xymordos

acain said:


> I wish Knowles would flare the end of the ports to help hold the tube on. I have been using acrylic to hold the tube on the nozzle, does anyone have suggestions for a better adhesive?


 
 I used the end of a toothpick to dab some super glue on and I find that it works better than acrylic, which tends to break when you bend it a little. With a toothpick you can stick the tube on with very little super glue and it won't run all over the place.


----------



## MIke M

I throw away a lot of scrap pieces of acoustic tubing, if anyone wants some, you can send me a self addressed stamped envelope and I'll stick some pieces in it. I don't want to mess with addressing envelopes myself.


----------



## Mython

xymordos said:


> I used the end of a toothpick to dab some super glue on and I find that it works better than acrylic, which tends to break when you bend it a little. With a toothpick you can stick the tube on with very little super glue and it won't run all over the place.


 
  
  
 I take it you are not concerned with cyano' vapours?
  
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/430688/home-made-iems/1635#post_10329767


----------



## CMOS1138

xymordos said:


> I'm worried that might make the bass too loud. I can also use 37AP015 or 33AL007 as mids.


 
  
 The relative loudness of the base will depend on what crossover you use. Unfiltered with no crossover DTEC is louder in the mids than it is in the base. The set I recently built with RAB/DTEC/CI is well balanced, it is _very_ loud but the base is not particularly louder than the mids. This is by far the highest total SPL set that I have built and I actually got an app to turn the volume on my phone down past my previously lowest setting just to make it comfortable to listen to.


----------



## Furco

I'do be inferested in how you setup that RAB/DTEC/CI. I just ordered some RABs to play around with. How's their low end?


----------



## CMOS1138

furco said:


> I'do be inferested in how you setup that RAB/DTEC/CI. I just ordered some RABs to play around with. How's their low end?


 
  
 I don't know about its base. I am using it as my tweeter with a 2.2uf cap as high pass filter. I never listened to it without the high pass.


----------



## Xymordos

@Mython: If its very little, even less than a drop, it should be fine. I understand UM uses superglue to stick the tubes on too?
  
 @CMOS1138: That's interesting, I'll definitely keep that in mind. I'm also not planning to use filters. So I guess I'll get both and see which one is less peaky.


----------



## briancortez2112

This was my first ever attempt at ciems UV nail gel, CI, TWFK - sound is great, I use them every week as monitors playing guitar at church.


----------



## acain

briancortez2112 said:


> This was my first ever attempt at ciems UV nail gel, CI, TWFK - sound is great, I use them every week as monitors playing guitar at church.




Nice job you have any pictures with the face plate on?


----------



## Silverprout

mython said:


> I take it you are not concerned with cyano' vapours?
> 
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/430688/home-made-iems/1635#post_10329767


 
  
 No problem with cyano


----------



## Furco

cmos1138 said:


> I don't know about its base. I am using it as my tweeter with a 2.2uf cap as high pass filter. I never listened to it without the high pass.




Tweeter? I would have never thought about that since it FR plot doesn't shout "tweeter" to me. I guess I'll find out next week when the arrive.


----------



## CMOS1138

furco said:


> Tweeter? I would have never thought about that since it FR plot doesn't shout "tweeter" to me. I guess I'll find out next week when the arrive.


 
 I am using RAB-32063-000, it has nice high end extension. It would not make sense to use it for anything else in my build considering that I am pairing it with DTEC and CI.


----------



## Mython

silverprout said:


> No problem with cyano
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 Hmmm...  actually, that looks rather _inconclusive_, to me!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
  
 If one was fitting the tubing to the BA and _then_, subsequently, adding a drop of high or medium-viscosity cyano (not super-low-viscosity!!), then I can see that it might be reasonably safe.
  
 I have no experience of CIEM building (_*yet... *_





)  but, speaking from decades of experience using cyano for various other hobbies, I have seen, many, many times, that the vapours are a PITA and can get into the _tiniest_ of nooks and crannies.
  
 Well, if Sonion claim that *some* cyano formulations are safe, then I will diplomatically bow down to their experience specifically with BAs, but even so, if/when I finally venture into making my own CIEMs, I will very definitely not be allowing cyano anywhere near _my_ precious BAs. I've seen it's negative effects too many times to take the risk.
  
  
 Incidentally, on a tangential note, if anyone reading this ever uses accelerator for their cyano, regardless of if it's on BAs or something entirely different, please stop using it, for the safety of your own longterm health, if it's trichloroethane. I used it once or twice, whilst modelmaking, as a teenager, and found out some time later that the stuff is _extremely_ nasty. Similar story with some epoxies that contain bisphenol-A.
  
  
 Thanks for the interesting reply, Silverprout.


----------



## Xymordos

The superglue stuff certainly isn't pleasant. Stings your eyes and nose even with the best brands you buy. Preferably I wouldn't use them but then the acrylic snaps too easily.


----------



## Furco

O





cmos1138 said:


> I am using RAB-32063-000
> , it has nice high end extension. It would not make sense to use it for anything else in my build considering that I am pairing it with DTEC and CI.



Okay, I didn't initially notice how significant those peaks were all the way out at 10kHz and beyond. 100dB SPL seems pretty loud. I'm challenged with unsatisfactory bass at the moment. A bump of 3db between 20 - 100Hz in my current config would be excellent to my ears.


----------



## Mython

xymordos said:


> The superglue stuff certainly isn't pleasant. Stings your eyes and nose even with the best brands you buy. Preferably I wouldn't use them but then the acrylic snaps too easily.


 
  
 If you find using cyano unavoidable, then you could perhaps try using a more viscous/thicker grade - it tends to cure more slowly (and it penetrates / wicks  less, which may be a benefit, in terms of controlling precisely where/how far it goes) and with the benefit that it gives off a bit less vapour.
  
  
 .


----------



## acain

Loctite sells medical grade super glue I picked some up but its very expensive.


----------



## acain

Finally finished my first attempts to make my own CIEM's, I first want to say thanks to everyone that posted comments and pictures in this thread. I would not have been able to do it without all the great people here. And thank you too all the people that I  PM'd  for the questions I had, and guided me in the right direction.
  
 This pair is my daughters that she made the shells all by her self, she did a great job for only being 13yrs old. She also made the faceplates, and spent hours gluing each rhinestone on using a toothpick. She wanted hers too look just like Ariana Grande's In ear monitors they look pretty close if you ever saw hers. My daughters is a single full range ED driver with a white filter.
  

  

  
 The cable is silver coated copper wire in clear Teflon, sleeved in paracord. I found a metal cable crimper that works great for a cable slide, you can see it in the first picture on the cable and it was only $1.49. Also a 3.5mm Amphenol plug, the cable is wired straight into the ciem with a knot on the end for strain relief. I didn't want to use a connector because she would end up loosing one of them anyway.
  
 My daughter has always used Dr Dre Beats ear buds, typical teenager. Until she heard My Sure SE315's, she made me get her a pair I bought her the Sure SE215's because of bass. I cant even remember the last time she used her Beats, I am changing her over slowly, but its hurting my wallet because every time I want a new toy she thinks she needs one also.


----------



## Silverprout

acain said:


> Loctite sells medical grade super glue I picked some up but its very expensive.


 

 Cyanolit 203 is medical, cheap, and made in usa 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 The last one...


----------



## Silverprout

acain said:


> Finally finished my first attempts to make my own CIEM's, I first want to say thanks to everyone that posted comments and pictures in this thread. I would not have been able to do it without all the great people here. And thank you too all the people that I  PM'd  for the questions I had, and guided me in the right direction.
> 
> This pair is my daughters that she made the shells all by her self, she did a great job for only being 13yrs old. She also made the faceplates, and spent hours gluing each rhinestone on using a toothpick. She wanted hers too look just like Ariana Grande's In ear monitors they look pretty close if you ever saw hers. My daughters is a single full range ED driver with a white filter.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Nice work, it's a team job !


----------



## acain

silverprout said:


> Cyanolit 203 is medical, cheap, and made in usa
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I love the dark wood I see you have a container of faceplates, I guess you make a bunch ahead of time. Very clean looking I would buy them. I know you told me before but I forgot, what kind of UV Gel do you use? You do great work how do they sound?


----------



## acain

I can't believe how professional your shells look its AWSOME. You should come up with a Universal shell and start selling them.


----------



## Silverprout

acain said:


> I love the dark wood I see you have a container of faceplates, I guess you make a bunch ahead of time. Very clean looking I would buy them. I know you told me before but I forgot, what kind of UV Gel do you use? You do great work how do they sound?


 
  
 It takes a lot of time 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  

  
 They sound awesome, it's hard to combine a flat response and hard beating bass.
 But details rendering is ALWAYS better with a flat response.
  

  
  
  


acain said:


> I can't believe how professional your shells look its AWSOME. You should come up with a Universal shell and start selling them.


 
  
 Thanks, I can explain all the processes, techniques and products... but in the private messages.


----------



## Xymordos

The wood looks so nice, I'm jealous


----------



## Silverprout

xymordos said:


> The wood looks so nice, I'm jealous


 
  





 i love rosewood !
  
 Sorry for the fingerprints....


----------



## Xymordos

I still haven't found the wax to polish the shells with


----------



## Silverprout

xymordos said:


> I still haven't found the wax to polish the shells with


 

 I use :
  
 Dremel 423E EZ Lock Cloth Polishing Wheel

  
  
  
 Micro gloss abrasive

  
  
 And the result is :


----------



## Xymordos

Need that Micro gloss abrasive...tried a lot of different polishes but they don't work :\
  
 Edit: So I looked it up here online, and I can get it off taobao, but is this one the same as yours?
  
 http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.14.1.5Ezx97&id=4431519042&ns=1&abbucket=6&_u=nkqv5el92aa#detail


----------



## wjp007

Where did you get the LEDs from?  Thanks


----------



## acain

I finished mine I bought the wrong capacitor but I used it anyway since I wont have time to work on these for a while. I have the CI and ED in these, they sound really good, I cant believe how clear these drivers produce sound.


----------



## briancortez2112

Shells


----------



## acain

nice job what did you use for materialis the blue one just painted


----------



## Silverprout

wjp007 said:


> Where did you get the LEDs from?  Thanks


 

 Ebay


----------



## briancortez2112

acain said:


> nice job what did you use for materialis the blue one just painted


 
 Yes its just painted, sometimes its just easier to do it that way when you are limited on materials to use and you need a special color.


----------



## briancortez2112

More progress.
 Knowles GK drivers


----------



## acain

briancortez2112 said:


> More progress.
> Knowles GK drivers





briancortez2112 said:


> More progress.
> Knowles GK drivers




Did you just use uv nail gel for the shell? How does it sound.


----------



## CMOS1138

briancortez2112 said:


> More progress.
> Knowles GK drivers


 
  
 Good choice. I love the GK driver.


----------



## briancortez2112

Yes, its clear gel for the shell and blue uv gel on the top for color and build up and so I didn't have to waste the color making the shell. I put black on the inside so the blue will be more vibrant.
 I don't know about sound yet as I haven't sealed them off yet to get the full impact. These are not for me, I am making them for someone and they have way bigger ears than me.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Awesome work, is your cable DIY as well??


----------



## Silverprout

Is someone able to say which is the best BA tweeter from knowles please ?


----------



## briancortez2112

I would say probably the FK series.


----------



## Silverprout

briancortez2112 said:


> I would say probably the FK series.


 
 Thanks,
 The knolwes catalog claims that the WBFK-30095 is the best 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  





 My CIEMS are a little bit short in the highs.


----------



## CMOS1138

silverprout said:


> Thanks,
> The knolwes catalog claims that the WBFK-30095 is the best
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Are you planing to add a 3rd driver to your existing build or are you going to make a new design?


----------



## Silverprout

cmos1138 said:


> Are you planing to add a 3rd driver to your existing build or are you going to make a new design?


 

 Yes, the two peaks of the WBFK-30095 are perfectly centered in the dips of my last design 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 This configuration is made in heaven... on the paper !


----------



## hotrod95

Which armatures are you planning to use for this?  and how are you setting up the crossover?


----------



## Daedalus1116

I'm sorry for this act of selfishness, but there are just so many pages that I'm unable to finish reading.
If it isn't too much, what is currently the best drivers models used by you guys. I'm planning to build one myself and would like a flat frequency response.
Thanks


----------



## Silverprout

daedalus1116 said:


> I'm sorry for this act of selfishness, but there are just so many pages that I'm unable to finish reading.
> If it isn't too much, what is currently the best drivers models used by you guys. I'm planning to build one myself and would like a flat frequency response.
> Thanks


 
 My CIEMs don't have electronic filters... but is is not a problem to use them if necessary 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 The lows uses a custom 13mm dynamic driver (thin polypropylene membrane, neodymium magnet and a very big coil)
 The medium is an undamped 29689 or 32063 in a horn shaped tube.
  
 A flat response can be very annoying...  it is* extremely *recording dependant 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 A lot of tracks has no bass and sub at all.
 The lows aren't here at all when they are not needed and can rumble too hard on poor mastered tracks (but subtile variations are amazing on good recordings)
 There is a lot of subtile details but you need to be in a relaxed position in calm environement to apreciate them.
 The others CIEMS makers boost some frequencies for good reasons... they know what they are doing.
 These CIEMs are not for outside or for the scene... only for home.


----------



## Daedalus1116

silverprout said:


> My CIEMs don't have electronic filters... but is is not a problem to use them if necessary
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks for the reply Silverprout,
 When I say flat, it isn't a straight line . What I'm trying to say is just a neutral and natural sounding headphone that portray sounds as it's meant to be with slight boost to the bass and treble.
  
  
 Is there any post in this 176 pages thread that contains recommendation on what model of drivers to use and the circuit necessary for connection?


----------



## Silverprout

daedalus1116 said:


> Thanks for the reply Silverprout,
> When I say flat, it isn't a straight line . What I'm trying to say is just a neutral and natural sounding headphone that portray sounds as it's meant to be with slight boost to the bass and treble.
> 
> 
> Is there any post in this 176 pages thread that contains recommendation on what model of drivers to use and the circuit necessary for connection?


 

 Sonion desing guide... can help you 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Only 13 pages to read... all that you need.


----------



## hotrod95

Silversprout, It looks like you use some sort of graphing program to estimate the response curve you will get with different drivers.  If not, how are you getting these graphs with multiple driver combos?


----------



## Silverprout

hotrod95 said:


> Silversprout, It looks like you use some sort of graphing program to estimate the response curve you will get with different drivers.  If not, how are you getting these graphs with multiple driver combos?


 
 I measure each driver in their final shells, disconnect electrically the unwanted driver response and replacing it by the same model but outside of the coupler.
 All the results are imported in excel.
 Each CIEM is tuned and adjusted individually, and each driver is selected.
  
 An example of a batch testing :


----------



## acain

Has anyone used the Knowles GQ series drivers and how did you like them? I was thinking about using these for a build.


----------



## CMOS1138

acain said:


> Has anyone used the Knowles GQ series drivers and how did you like them? I was thinking about using these for a build.


 
 GQ has been used by a number of posters to this board. I have used it in 2 of my designs and I am happy with the results that I have achieved with it.
  
 Undamped, the WBFK part of GQ overpowers the ED part and they sound hollow and severely lacking in base.  
 With a white damper the sound is slightly more balanced but I found this setup to be extremely boring and lacking in life.
 The sweet spot for me is with a brown damper, this brings the base out to a noticeable level without sacrificing much detail, I believe that the GQ used in ADDIEM has a brown damper built in because they sound exactly like normal GQ's with the brown damper. 
 A Green damper makes the sound mellow and warm, this is a nice and relaxing sound and I do enjoy it but I prefer detail and so I stick to the brown.
  
 GQ can also be used as the high and mid drivers of a 3 way by adding CI or DTEC behind a red filter or the electronic low pass of your choice.  It has also been used in more complex designs by other posters.


----------



## acain

Thanks for the information. That helps alot.


----------



## Daedalus1116

Currently, what brand of drivers are considered the best in sound quality? I'm thinking of building a neutral CIEM with two drivers for bass, two for mids, and two for treble.


----------



## MuZo2

Did you go through the document?


----------



## Daedalus1116

muzo2 said:


> Did you go through the document?




The one that was posted by Silverprout? If so, yes.


----------



## MuZo2

daedalus1116 said:


> The one that was posted by Silverprout? If so, yes.


 


furco said:


> In the spirit of giving back, I present to you the "Home-Made IEMs" forum Definitive DIY Guide:
> 
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jU37oWefx2dGS8dWw5TVkugEtwJh_bh3fuUBNe2HrQg/edit?usp=sharing
> 
> ...


----------



## Daedalus1116

muzo2 said:


>


 
 Thanks MuZo2, you are the best!


----------



## Furco

acain said:


> Has anyone used the Knowles GQ series drivers and how did you like them? I was thinking about using these for a build.


 
  
 I just picked up some from Mouser and tested them out.  My initial impression was that it needed more bass for my liking so I paired it with a CI using a 2nd Order low pass crossover.  It now sounds very good but certainly not epic.  The high end is lacking but vocals are very clear
  
 .  Here are my exact specs for what I'm tentatively calling my Opus 3:
  
 GQ-30783  +  no-crossover               +  20x1.93mm tubing  + Orange Damper (3300ohm)
 CI-30120    + LP@2x(10ohm/33uF)  +  20x0.85mm tubing  + No Damper
  
 And here's the FR chart.  Opus 3 is the red line; ignore the dip at 4kHz.  It's an artifact of my FR test rig.


----------



## MuZo2

daedalus1116 said:


> Thanks MuZo2, you are the best!


 

 You have to thank Furco an not me for his extensive work on document.


----------



## Furco

I spent the better part of the holiday playing with some new BAs I ordered.  The WBFK is a miracle of the ages.  Not only is it super small, it seems to have filled in the missing link for the configuration I've been trying to tune for the better part of 2 months.  I've been listening to the config for the last 3 days -- in one ear  -- and am realizing that not all recording are created equal.  I'm working on closing the shells and will post pics when I'm finished.  
  
 It's a 6 driver setup that is, so far, the best sounding thing I've ever put in my ears. These are definitely something special.  
  
 Opus 6 is the red curve.


----------



## soltenebrum

Pretty amazing job with the shells folks. Kudos! Anyone with some insight on crossovers care to share some?
  
 Following are what I think I got so far;

Cap on tweeter, resistor on woofer. A small valued resistor + red damper, a high valued cap + grey/white damper would make a lovely 2-way.
Every signal path needs to have equal number of circuit elements in order to prevent phase difference.
A 3-way would be challenging for regular people.
  
 How to calculate the values for a simple first order? Do data sheets provide enough info to do that? What type of caps and resistors should be preferred (only tantalums?)?
 Will a cap followed by a resistor work as band-pass? It would introduce phase difference though, right?
  
 Apart from these how trustworthy is lunashops.com?


----------



## MuZo2

I bought BA from mouser but some cables and connectors from lunashop which were OK


----------



## acain

furco said:


> I spent the better part of the holiday playing with some new BAs I ordered.  The WBFK is a miracle of the ages.  Not only is it super small, it seems to have filled in the missing link for the configuration I've been trying to tune for the better part of 2 months.  I've been listening to the config for the last 3 days -- in one ear  -- and am realizing that not all recording are created equal.  I'm working on closing the shells and will post pics when I'm finished.
> 
> It's a 6 driver setup that is, so far, the best sounding thing I've ever put in my ears. These are definitely something special.
> 
> Opus 6 is the red curve.




I CAN'T wait to see your build.


----------



## Silverprout

daedalus1116 said:


> Currently, what brand of drivers are considered the best in sound quality? I'm thinking of building a neutral CIEM with two drivers for bass, two for mids, and two for treble.


 
  
 If you can identify the problems on my graph... you will probably be able to do it, in the future


----------



## acain

furco said:


> I spent the better part of the holiday playing with some new BAs I ordered.  The WBFK is a miracle of the ages.  Not only is it super small, it seems to have filled in the missing link for the configuration I've been trying to tune for the better part of 2 months.  I've been listening to the config for the last 3 days -- in one ear  -- and am realizing that not all recording are created equal.  I'm working on closing the shells and will post pics when I'm finished.
> 
> It's a 6 driver setup that is, so far, the best sounding thing I've ever put in my ears. These are definitely something special.
> 
> Opus 6 is the red curve.




What other driver are you using for your 6 driver setup?


----------



## briancortez2112

Almost Done, Just need to Polish and buff and that should be it....


----------



## CMOS1138

furco said:


> I just picked up some from Mouser and tested them out.  My initial impression was that it needed more bass for my liking so I paired it with a CI using a 2nd Order low pass crossover.  It now sounds very good but certainly not epic.  The high end is lacking but vocals are very clear
> 
> .  Here are my exact specs for what I'm tentatively calling my Opus 3:
> 
> ...


 
 Have you tried this with without the Orange Damper? You are definitely sacrificing a lot of detail and high end extension by using that damper. Its like you are placing a low pass filter on your tweeter and mids.


----------



## Furco

cmos1138 said:


> Have you tried this with without the Orange Damper? You are definitely sacrificing a lot of detail and high end extension by using that damper. Its like you are placing a low pass filter on your tweeter and mids.




I tried a few different ones but the other colors (lower resistance) maintained the harsh sounding highs to my ears but I understand what you're saying. I'll give it other try. It could be my ears, my music collection, the quality or lack thereof of my mp3s. 

Any idea if the Knowles dampers have to go into the tubes in a certain direction (e.g. Color screen facing out)?

Any musical suggestions for hearing "details"? I have to admit, I'm a bit of a neophyte when it comes to describing describing what I'm hearing.


----------



## Furco

acain said:


> What other driver are you using for your 6 driver setup?




The Opus 6 includes CI + DTEC + DTEC + WFK. It's embarassingly basic. No crossover; all wired in parallel. I'll post the damper and tube configuration when I get it sealed up.


----------



## acain

briancortez2112 said:


> Almost Done, Just need to Polish and buff and that should be it....


 
  
  
 They look great nice job what drivers are in those and how do they sound?


----------



## acain

furco said:


> The Opus 6 includes CI + DTEC + DTEC + WFK. It's embarassingly basic. No crossover; all wired in parallel. I'll post the damper and tube configuration when I get it sealed up.


 

 How was the sound with no crossover?


----------



## briancortez2112

acain said:


> They look great nice job what drivers are in those and how do they sound?


 
 Thanks, the drivers are the knowles GK-31732-000, they sound great, I have a Grey damper on the highs.
 This driver is already crossed over.


----------



## acain

briancortez2112 said:


> Thanks, the drivers are the knowles GK-31732-000, they sound great, I have a Grey damper on the highs.
> This driver is already crossed over.


 

 Was that your first build? I made 2 pair with Dreve Fotoplast and it worked out really well. I tried to use UV nail gel but it didn't come out that great. Was the UV gel that you used really thick or was it just like the UV nail gel top coat. I have seen 2 type of UV nail gel one comes in a container with a lid, this is what I tried and it was like a paste so I bought thinner. The other kind comes In a regular nail bottle. I am trying to find alternative acrylic since the Dreve is quiet pricey and UV nail gel is sold every were. I was able to make a shell with the nail gel but wasn't satisfied with the end results.


----------



## acain

furco said:


> The Opus 6 includes CI + DTEC + DTEC + WFK. It's embarassingly basic. No crossover; all wired in parallel. I'll post the damper and tube configuration when I get it sealed up.


 
  
 Hopefully we will see some pictures of your build by the end of the week!!!!!!!!


----------



## CMOS1138

furco said:


> I tried a few different ones but the other colors (lower resistance) maintained the harsh sounding highs to my ears but I understand what you're saying. I'll give it other try. It could be my ears, my music collection, the quality or lack thereof of my mp3s.
> 
> Any idea if the Knowles dampers have to go into the tubes in a certain direction (e.g. Color screen facing out)?
> 
> Any musical suggestions for hearing "details"? I have to admit, I'm a bit of a neophyte when it comes to describing describing what I'm hearing.


 
 At the end of the day, this is all about what sounds good to you so if orange is what you like then use it. 
  
 I am wondering if perhaps the 2nd order low pass you are using on CI is significantly limiting its SPL. If you got more volume out of CI than perhaps GQ would sound less harsh to you? 
  
 As for damper direction, I don't think it matters but I always place the open side out so that I can swap out dampers even after everything is sealed up. It takes me a lot of listening time to decide on a final damper configuration.
  
 Music for testing, try everything. Listening to a wide range of music and styles is the best way to find out the limitations of any given design.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

I must first say thanks to @CMOS1138 for helping me overcome a few obstacles!!

  
 Latest build: GK + CL red damper on independent CL driver. ( ndependent CL driver is connected to circuit on the GK armature along with the GK's CL driver)

  
 Rich bass and a better tonal response than single GK driver. I must also note I only used 1 tube on the GK. I used pins for the cable because that's what I had at the time. I'm switching to MMCX connectors for all future builds.

  
 Best way to clean haze/uv residue post cast is using Isopropyl Alcohol 93% and small toothbrush. I fill a solo cup half way and drop it in as soon as its done under the light. Works like a charm!
  
http://i1362.photobucket.com/albums/r692/dlaird2009/ZG6Z0032_zps6832d4a7.jpg


----------



## MuZo2

cmos1138 said:


> Have you tried this with without the Orange Damper? You are definitely sacrificing a lot of detail and high end extension by using that damper. Its like you are placing a low pass filter on your tweeter and mids.


 

 Note : Westone4 also has orange filter with DTEC + TWFK


----------



## MuZo2

acain said:


> Was that your first build? I made 2 pair with Dreve Fotoplast and it worked out really well. I tried to use UV nail gel but it didn't come out that great. Was the UV gel that you used really thick or was it just like the UV nail gel top coat. I have seen 2 type of UV nail gel one comes in a container with a lid, this is what I tried and it was like a paste so I bought thinner. The other kind comes In a regular nail bottle. I am trying to find alternative acrylic since the Dreve is quiet pricey and UV nail gel is sold every were. I was able to make a shell with the nail gel but wasn't satisfied with the end results.


 

 I think UV nail gel comes in 3 configurations. 1-phase which I guess is thin for first coat. Builder gel which is bit thick. Top coat which is for final shiny coat. I havent tried any. But I think builder gels should have same consistency. But I am not sure if they are safe for in ears.


----------



## Daedalus1116

What determines the soundstage that an IEM can produce?


----------



## MuZo2

shilohsjustice said:


> Best way to clean haze/uv residue post cast is using Isopropyl Alcohol 93% and small toothbrush. I fill a solo cup half way and drop it in as soon as its done under the light. Works like a charm!
> 
> http://i1362.photobucket.com/albums/r692/dlaird2009/ZG6Z0032_zps6832d4a7.jpg


 
 Nice build. I found with Isopropyl Alcohol there are white stains on clear shells.


----------



## Silverprout

daedalus1116 said:


> What determines the soundstage that an IEM can produce?


 
 Driver technology.


----------



## Daedalus1116

silverprout said:


> Driver technology.




Is there anything that could be done when building an IEM? Like having more air around the drivers like open back headphones?


----------



## shakur1996

silverprout said:


> Driver technology.


 
 Can you please elaborate more on this?
  
 Are there any driver families like BKs or 33000 which perform better in terms of soundstage?


----------



## Silverprout

daedalus1116 said:


> Is there anything that could be done when building an IEM? Like having more air around the drivers like open back headphones?


 
  
 No.


----------



## Silverprout

shakur1996 said:


> Can you please elaborate more on this?
> 
> Are there any driver families like BKs or 33000 which perform better in terms of soundstage?


 
 You can modify the soundstage by adding a lot of drivers, phase shifting between them affect the soundstage.
 It's an art... for very experienced builders 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 I'm just trying to make good sounding two drivers CIEMs... it's my level.
  
 PS : BK drivers have no compensation peak around 3K... you can't expect a natural linearity with them.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

muzo2 said:


> I think UV nail gel comes in 3 configurations. 1-phase which I guess is thin for first coat. Builder gel which is bit thick. Top coat which is for final shiny coat. I havent tried any. But I think builder gels should have same consistency. But I am not sure if they are safe for in ears.


 
  
 The UV gel does have 3 stages, but with building shells you would only use stage 2 and top coat. My shells are made of just top coat. It has great viscosity and cures hard. If I add color I use colored gel which is a stage 2 nail gel then cover with topcoat. Both are great to build up and create smooth surfaces. I'm wanting to try out the dreve fotoplast but haven't pulled the trigger yet. When ordering from lightning enterprises do you know if the 100gram bottle is actually 3.5oz of fotoplast ?? or is that number include bottle weight??
  
 Big thing with UV Nail gel is that if you fail to remove ALL residue from shell it CAN cause irritation in your ear canal as the liquid can be absorbed. UV gel is listed as an inert product when cured as it does not discharge any molecules or vapors when fully cure. What people are not realizing is that there is more danger being exposed to UV light during there build process as ultraviolet light causes cells to mutate and has been linked to skin cancer.
  
 Another thing I have found is that being an amateur builder, it was at first, hard to determine how much shell build up I needed to achieve a good seal. I FIRST thought I was having a reaction as the insides of my ear canals were itchy and tingling, I discovered I had been building up too much and scraped those builds, started over, and achieved exceptional results by adding less. No itch and no discomfort. I took a step out of my process, I no longer dip my impressions in wax prior to casting them. This was at CMOS1138's 1138" style="display: inline-block;">@CMOS1138 suggestion, worked for me.


----------



## MuZo2

shilohsjustice said:


> Big thing with UV Nail gel is that if you fail to remove ALL residue from shell it CAN cause irritation in your ear canal as the liquid can be absorbed.


 
 What does it mean ?


----------



## MuZo2

I think you mean sticky inhibition layer?


----------



## acain

shilohsjustice said:


> The UV gel does have 3 stages, but with building shells you would only use stage 2 and top coat. My shells are made of just top coat. It has great viscosity and cures hard. If I add color I use colored gel which is a stage 2 nail gel then cover with topcoat. Both are great to build up and create smooth surfaces. I'm wanting to try out the dreve fotoplast but haven't pulled the trigger yet. When ordering from lightning enterprises do you know if the 100gram bottle is actually 3.5oz of fotoplast ?? or is that number include bottle weight??
> 
> Big thing with UV Nail gel is that if you fail to remove ALL residue from shell it CAN cause irritation in your ear canal as the liquid can be absorbed. UV gel is listed as an inert product when cured as it does not discharge any molecules or vapors when fully cure. What people are not realizing is that there is more danger being exposed to UV light during there build process as ultraviolet light causes cells to mutate and has been linked to skin cancer.
> 
> Another thing I have found is that being an amateur builder, it was at first, hard to determine how much shell build up I needed to achieve a good seal. I FIRST thought I was having a reaction as the insides of my ear canals were itchy and tingling, I discovered I had been building up too much and scraped those builds, started over, and achieved exceptional results by adding less. No itch and no discomfort. I took a step out of my process, I no longer dip my impressions in wax prior to casting them. This was at CMOS1138's [@=http://www.head-fi.org/u/397747/%3Cinput%20readonly%20class=]1138" style="display: inline-block;">@CMOS1138[/@] suggestion, worked for me.




If you buy the Fotoplast you might also want to buy the laquer also. It is a top coat and used for build up. It dries smooth and shiny tack free. Its can also be used to glue the faceplate on.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

With UV nail gel there can be "uncured gel" left over on the shells, it leaves a sticky residue, the body COULD POSSIBLY absorb it and cause a skin reaction. Not to mention it is sticky, it's important to get this residue/film/layer off. I've tried curing it for 30 min but I usually always have some residue left I have to remove. @MuZo2


----------



## Shilohsjustice

muzo2 said:


> I think you mean sticky inhibition layer?


 

 Yes, I'm still somewhat of a noob but I think we mean the same thing.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

acain said:


> If you buy the Fotoplast you might also want to buy the laquer also. It is a top coat and used for build up. It dries smooth and shiny tack free. Its can also be used to glue the faceplate on.


 

 Are you using a UV chamber?? Do you think a 365nm Nail Light Box would cure the fotoplast sufficiently enough??


----------



## MuZo2

Egger UV doesnot cure well in Nail UV lightbox.


----------



## acain

shilohsjustice said:


> Are you using a UV chamber?? Do you think a 365nm Nail Light Box would cure the fotoplast sufficiently enough??


 
 I bought a nail light and ripped it apart and made a box so the lights were in a better place it cures Fotoplast really good. The company that actually sells the Fotoplast sells 365nm bulbs. Here is a picture of my light box with nitrogen hooked up.


----------



## acain

With the Fotoplast I also made good shells just using a UV flashlight. And for the laquer that's all I used was a flashlight from ebay for $5.


----------



## acain

muzo2 said:


> Egger UV doesnot cure well in Nail UV lightbox.


 

 I saw some of your pictures on some other form of social media. Did you make all those wood shells yourself?  And there was another type of shell material with all sorts of color patterns on it. It was pretty impressive.


----------



## Silverprout

Sunlight curing... fast and cheap


----------



## acain

silverprout said:


> Sunlight curing... fast and cheap


 
  
  
 UV top coat over wood.


----------



## MuZo2

acain said:


> I saw some of your pictures on some other form of social media. Did you make all those wood shells yourself?  And there was another type of shell material with all sorts of color patterns on it. It was pretty impressive.


 

 Yes wood shells were done on CNC , first of its kind.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

"I bought a nail light and ripped it apart and made a box so the lights were in a better place it cures Fotoplast really good. The company that actually sells the Fotoplast sells 365nm bulbs. Here is a picture of my light box with nitrogen hooked up." Comment from @acain



Awesome set up, what does the nitrogen act as?? I'm anxious to try out the fotoplast for sure.


----------



## Q Mass

Someone suggested Composimold ( http://www.composimold.com/index.php ) as a mold material ( sorry I can't find your post now 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ).
 It looks like it might be a great product for our purposes, so I e-mailed them asking if it is UV transparent.
 They don't know but suspect that it would be in small molds such as those seen in this thread.
 Composimold kindly offered to send me a 2 ounce sample, but in all honesty it'll likely be a long time until I find the time to build a UV chamber, and I live in the UK, so postage from Maine would be high.
 So if someone here who has had success with/experience of other mould materials would like to try Composimold for free I'll happily pass your address on to them.
  
 P.M. me if you're interested ( and have posted in this thread of course )
  
 Just a quick edit to this post to clarify:
 Composimold have offered *one* 2 ounce sample to help us determine whether their product is UV transparent, but if it is, it seems to be a potentially great solution as the molds are flexible enough to be re-used, and can even be melted down for casting again.
  
 P.M. me if you're interested, if no-one expresses an interest I'll take them up on the offer myself and make a UV box from one of those lights that can be found on the bay for setting UV cell-phone screen glue .


----------



## acain

shilohsjustice said:


> "I bought a nail light and ripped it apart and made a box so the lights were in a better place it cures Fotoplast really good. The company that actually sells the Fotoplast sells 365nm bulbs. Here is a picture of my light box with nitrogen hooked up." Comment from @acain
> 
> 
> 
> Awesome set up, what does the nitrogen act as?? I'm anxious to try out the fotoplast for sure.


 
 The outer layer of the Fotoplast will not cure  with oxygen present, this is why people get a sticky residue its uncured acrylic. Nitrogen or argon (inert gas) are used to create an oxygen free atmosphere.


----------



## acain

muzo2 said:


> Yes wood shells were done on CNC , first of its kind.


 

 Thats AWSOME I guess your ear impression was 3D scanned and programmed from a CAD drawing.  I work in a machine shop but we don't have a scanner, I would love to CNC mill some shells out of stainless steel, or titanium.


----------



## MuZo2

Yes was scanned , prepared in CAD , programmed in CAM and machined on 5-axis machine. Actually now prestige uses same method.


----------



## MuZo2

My profile picture is actually my scanned impressions rendered in cad.


----------



## acain

muzo2 said:


> My profile picture is actually my scanned impressions rendered in cad.


 

 Great job I guess you used some small ball mills to contour it that detailed.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

I've read the entire post some areas MULTIPLE times. I'm not asking the how because I know this is a thread for "Home-Made IEMs" but feel there hasn't been much discussion relating to cables, which does directly correlate with the build.
  
@CMOS1138 @acain @MuZo2 Are you guys building your cables as well?? I would assume so but did not want to speculate. I certainly do not want to start a discussion if I'm out of place asking. If it warrants the time to discuss, are you using silver coated hook up wire??


----------



## Shilohsjustice

muzo2 said:


> Yes was scanned , prepared in CAD , programmed in CAM and machined on 5-axis machine. Actually now prestige uses same method.


 

 Awesome, Awesome, Awesome!!! Takes it to a new level!!! Are there any noticeable tonal differences?? I would assume so unless you coat the interior of the shell, if you don't coat it the shell would absorb any sound leakage and in a sense resonate extremely well.
  
 Do you create your own sound port and bypass using tubes, seems there would be a great freedom to experiment.


----------



## acain

shilohsjustice said:


> I've read the entire post some areas MULTIPLE times. I'm not asking the how because I know this is a thread for "Home-Made IEMs" but feel there hasn't been much discussion relating to cables, which does directly correlate with the build.
> 
> @CMOS1138
> @acain
> ...




Yes I am building my own cables and also using silver coated copper wire. You could just buy a cable also. I sleeved mine in black paracord.


----------



## acain

There is a great forum here for DIY cables.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

acain said:


> Yes I am building my own cables and also using silver coated copper wire. You could just buy a cable also. I sleeved mine in black paracord.


 

 Thanks, I figured so as I'm pretty new to the thread here. Is there another thread relating to DIY IEM cables specifically. I know it's a totally different world than whats going on in this thread. I've been building mine as well using 28awg silver coated wire. I haven't sleeved them or tried expanding my craft just usually do a round braid, I use acoustic tubing and heat shrink then call it a day!!


----------



## Daedalus1116

muzo2 said:


> Yes was scanned , prepared in CAD , programmed in CAM and machined on 5-axis machine. Actually now prestige uses same method.




What type of 3D scanner did you use? Was it the consumer type or industrial type?


----------



## acain

daedalus1116 said:


> What type of 3D scanner did you use? Was it the consumer type or industrial type?




It was probably industrial since he ran the shell in a 5-axis CNC


----------



## acain

shilohsjustice said:


> Thanks, I figured so as I'm pretty new to the thread here. Is there another thread relating to DIY IEM cables specifically. I know it's a totally different world than whats going on in this thread. I've been building mine as well using 28awg silver coated wire. I haven't sleeved them or tried expanding my craft just usually do a round braid, I use acoustic tubing and heat shrink then call it a day!!




Do a search on this site for diy cables theres tons of info.


----------



## Daedalus1116

I've noticed that many recent builds doesn't use TWFK. Is it because there are better alternatives or just because of different taste in sound signature.


----------



## CMOS1138

shilohsjustice said:


> I've read the entire post some areas MULTIPLE times. I'm not asking the how because I know this is a thread for "Home-Made IEMs" but feel there hasn't been much discussion relating to cables, which does directly correlate with the build.
> 
> @CMOS1138 @acain @MuZo2 Are you guys building your cables as well?? I would assume so but did not want to speculate. I certainly do not want to start a discussion if I'm out of place asking. If it warrants the time to discuss, are you using silver coated hook up wire??


 
  
 I have never been happy with any of the cables I have built, instead, I use cables that I purchase off e-bay. There is a large variety available for reasonable prices (Less than I can build them for).


----------



## acain

FINNALLY made a shell with UV nail top coat, I have been using Fotoplast but wanted a cheaper alternative. Now I can experiment all I wont with cheap shells. And if I run out of material all I have to do is go to Walmart. I really wanted to use nail gel for test purposes so I can experiment with different angle and length of the canal. And I didn't want to experiment with the Fotoplast due to cost and availability. And now if I mess up a shell I can just make a new one for real cheap. It only took about 15min to make this shell with a silicone mold and a UV flashlight.


----------



## CMOS1138

shilohsjustice said:


> Latest build: GK + CL red damper on independent CL driver. ( ndependent CL driver is connected to circuit on the GK armature along with the GK's CL driver)
> 
> 
> Rich bass and a better tonal response than single GK driver. I must also note I only used 1 tube on the GK. I used pins for the cable because that's what I had at the time. I'm switching to MMCX connectors for all future builds.
> ...


 
  
 Nice idea, adding a 2nd CI to GK. I bet it sounds great


----------



## CMOS1138

daedalus1116 said:


> I've noticed that many recent builds doesn't use TWFK. Is it because there are better alternatives or just because of different taste in sound signature.


 
  
 TWFK definatly has been used by some of the recent projects posted here. *briancortez2112 *used it in the first build he posted pictures of and I think *acain* used it as well in one of his builds. TWFK is most frequently combined with CI and knowles does this for you in the GK driver and several people have used that recently.


----------



## acain

Here is some pictures of shells made from Fotoplast S/IO the top is clear Fotoplast second is clear Fotoplast with blue acrylic tint third is clear Fotoplast tinted with white uv nail gel.


----------



## Daedalus1116

cmos1138 said:


> TWFK definatly has been used by some of the recent projects posted here. *briancortez2112 *used it in the first build he posted pictures of and I think *acain* used it as well in one of his builds. TWFK is most frequently combined with CI and knowles does this for you in the GK driver and several people have used that recently.




Thanks, I've totally forgotten about the GK XD.

I have a very stupid question, what's the difference between a receiver and a speaker?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

daedalus1116 said:


> Thanks, I've totally forgotten about the GK XD.
> 
> I have a very stupid question, what's the difference between a receiver and a speaker?





The term speaker is a broad classification, a Balanced Armature is a speaker. When they refer to receiver it narrows it down to a specific model within that classification. 

A TWFK is a speaker, talking singular it is a Balanced Armature TWFK receiver. Sonion uses the term receiver where as Knowles identifies them as both speakers and receivers. 

There are 2 types of transducers But that's where classifications begin to differ. I hope this clarifies a bit. Anyone else please feel free to chime in if I'm missing something.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

acain said:


> Here is some pictures of shells made from Fotoplast S/IO the top is clear Fotoplast second is clear Fotoplast with blue acrylic tint third is clear Fotoplast tinted with white uv nail gel.





Looks great!! About how many shells are you getting out of a100gram bottle? Does it equal 3.5oz of material?


----------



## Daedalus1116

shilohsjustice said:


> The term speaker is a broad classification, a Balanced Armature is a speaker. When they refer to receiver it narrows it down to a specific model within that classification.
> 
> A TWFK is a speaker, talking singular it is a Balanced Armature TWFK receiver. Sonion uses the term receiver where as Knowles identifies them as both speakers and receivers.
> 
> There are 2 types of transducers But that's where classifications begin to differ. I hope this clarifies a bit. Anyone else please feel free to chime in if I'm missing something.




On Mouser, should I buy drivers that are listed as receivers or speakers?


----------



## MuZo2

acain said:


> Great job I guess you used some small ball mills to contour it that detailed.




Yes 2.5 ball for rough and semi finish.1 ball for finish.


----------



## MuZo2

shilohsjustice said:


> Awesome, Awesome, Awesome!!! Takes it to a new level!!! Are there any noticeable tonal differences?? I would assume so unless you coat the interior of the shell, if you don't coat it the shell would absorb any sound leakage and in a sense resonate extremely well.
> 
> Do you create your own sound port and bypass using tubes, seems there would be a great freedom to experiment.




The shell does make difference because I used dynamic driver, I think in BA drivers it doesnot make any difference unless the drivers are ported. For sound ports for BA its still easy to use tubes as they are flexible.


----------



## MuZo2

shilohsjustice said:


> Looks great!! About how many shells are you getting out of a100gram bottle? Does it equal 3.5oz of material?


 

 I got 150ml tube and could get 30 experimental shells. One or two cured nearly full as I was checking time for curing for different thickness.


----------



## MuZo2

daedalus1116 said:


> What type of 3D scanner did you use? Was it the consumer type or industrial type?


 

 It was industrial scanner designed for ear impressions. I scanned them at tradeshow last year.


----------



## acain

shilohsjustice said:


> Looks great!! About how many shells are you getting out of a100gram bottle? Does it equal 3.5oz of material?




I am not sure I made 10 pair of shells and some faceplates and still have some left. But the material in oz is 100 grams without the bottle.


----------



## acain

muzo2 said:


> I got 150ml tube and could get 30 experimental shells. One or two cured nearly full as I was checking time for curing for different thickness.




I guess you are use Egger that come in a tube I just found a dealer and ordered a tube of it.


----------



## Furco

daedalus1116 said:


> I've noticed that many recent builds doesn't use TWFK. Is it because there are better alternatives or just because of different taste in sound signature.




TWFKs, for most of us, are too expensive prototype with. People have burned them up trying to solder leads into them, others have put dents I them through rough handling, and still others have torn the solder pads right off them with too large wire. Balanced armatures are a bit more resilient than ribbon cables but overworking is a common problem. It's best to develop experience with cheaper drivers before stepping into the higher end ones though working with the expensive ones can get you to the finish line quicker in some situations.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

daedalus1116 said:


> On Mouser, should I buy drivers that are listed as receivers or speakers?


 

 It all depends on what you are going for. How many driver set up you want. How many Hi's/Mid/s/Lows. some of the WBFK's are listed as a speaker on Mouser  but the GQ is labeled as a receiver. Either Receiver or Speaker will work. You just need to decide the Frequency range you are trying to cover and choose based off of that.


----------



## MuZo2

shilohsjustice said:


>


 
  
  

 Your build looks really professional quality. Great Job!!!


----------



## acain

Your first build you probably want to jam as many drivers as you can in the shell. Keep it simple for the first one. There are alot of challenges that you will come across. And believe me you will run out of room in the shell real fast.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Tip of the day:

If your shell walls come out a little thin in certain areas resist the urge to line the inside cavity of your shell with additional UV. My first couple builds I did this and ran out of room. I have big ears but they are shallow and I had a hard time fitting a DTEC + CL driver with pins and a cap + res. I ended up damaging a couple drivers in the cramming process. 

You can spot fix thin areas using nail uv and a uv flashlight. 

I use stranded 30 awg silver coated hook up wire for leads, magnet wire works but is far to rigid for me. 
Tip #2 need lead wire, strip it out of an old phone cable it is typically 28 awg or 30 awg. It's stranded and flexible.


----------



## MuZo2

Are you guys doing measurements to check your builds?


----------



## Furco

Yes: Frequency response curves using sine wave sweeps and pink noise. I'll spend some time trying to figure out how guys like RinChoi does his analysis. http://rinchoi.blogspot.com/2014/04/ultimate-ears-ue900-take-two.html?m=1

Things that interest me include:
- Impulse Response
- Distortion
- Spectral Decay


----------



## Shilohsjustice

I am fairly new to audiophiles and have just begun learning some of the tools out there with regard to tuning and understanding frequency curves. 

So my answer is yes and No, I've been using x over for working crossovers caps/res. I've had some good luck in isolating frequencies using the calculators available. I'm interested in learning the processes of identifying and shaping the frequency response.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

I got a good one for everyone. I was at work today and walking around I noticed a display of formica chips, ding light went off FACEPLATES. Has anyone tried them as faceplates it would add a pretty cool flare as some look like wood, stone, patterns, colors. Best of all they are free. Thin enough to shape and cut with dremel.

I've also tried cork from some flooring samples which turned out pretty cool, was unable to get the face plate thin enough though to look right, Just hard to shape based on its texture.


----------



## Furco

shilohsjustice said:


> I got a good one for everyone. I was at work today and walking around I noticed a display of formica chips, ding light went off FACEPLATES. Has anyone tried them as faceplates it would add a pretty cool flare as some look like wood, stone, patterns, colors. Best of all they are free. Thin enough to shape and cut with dremel.
> 
> I've also tried cork from some flooring samples which turned out pretty cool, was unable to get the face plate thin enough though to look right, Just hard to shape based on its texture.


 
  
 Those might be very interesting!  Great idea.  Question:  Where can you find formica chips at?  A kitchen and bath store or do they also have them at Home Depot or Lowes?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

furco said:


> Those might be very interesting!  Great idea.  Question:  Where can you find formica chips at?  A kitchen and bath store or do they also have them at Home Depot or Lowes?





Lowe's, Home Depot, probably Manards as well. I work at Lowe's so I know they have them for sure. I'm going to take a dremel to one later to see how a sanding tip works with the material.


----------



## Mython

shilohsjustice said:


> I'm going to take a dremel to one later to see how a sanding tip works with the material.


 
  
  
 Laminate (Formica) sands very well - the only problem is that it wears out the grit very quickly.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

mython said:


> Laminate (Formica) sands very well - the only problem is that it wears out the grit very quickly.




Thanks for the info, now I'm really excited to see how well these turn out. I'll post pics once I have one mounted on a shell.


----------



## Daedalus1116

On Mouser, a TWFK is $46 while a GK is $49?


----------



## briancortez2112

daedalus1116 said:


> On Mouser, a TWFK is $46 while a GK is $49?


 
 Yep, that's why its a great buy and why I used it on my latest build.... I guess its like a "package deal"


----------



## acain

Does anyone know what Knowles GQ speaker is?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

The Formica test was a success, mind you my wife didn't approve of my evening project so it was thrown together extremely quickly. I could have finessed a little bit more but wanted to know your thoughts as an option. Could have possibilities as there are hundreds of options.


----------



## briancortez2112

acain said:


> Does anyone know what Knowles GQ speaker is?


 
 Its a WBFK with a ED receiver through a crossover circuit.


----------



## briancortez2112

shilohsjustice said:


> The Formica test was a success, mind you my wife didn't approve of my evening project so it was thrown together extremely quickly. I could have finessed a little bit more but wanted to know your thoughts as an option. Could have possibilities as there are hundreds of options.


 
 Looks very nice! This seems pretty promising! Good job.


----------



## acain

shilohsjustice said:


> The Formica test was a success, mind you my wife didn't approve of my evening project so it was thrown together extremely quickly. I could have finessed a little bit more but wanted to know your thoughts as an option. Could have possibilities as there are hundreds of options.


 

 Looks great its awesome seeing so many new people here. What kind of shell material did you use look nice and clear?


----------



## acain

I have been using Nitrogen to solve the tackiness from uncured acrylic, I have been looking for cheaper alternatives instead of just wiping it off with isopropyl alcohol. Nitrogen works great but my goal is to do this as cheap as possible. So I contacted the company I purchased the Fotoplast from, they told me after it comes out from the UV lights to coat it with Glycerin. This will make a barrier so no oxygen is present.
  
 I tried this tonight with Fotoplast and UV Nail gel and it works great not a single spot was uncured.


----------



## CMOS1138

acain said:


> I have been using Nitrogen to solve the tackiness from uncured acrylic, I have been looking for cheaper alternatives instead of just wiping it off with isopropyl alcohol. Nitrogen works great but my goal is to do this as cheap as possible. So I contacted the company I purchased the Fotoplast from, they told me after it comes out from the UV lights to coat it with Glycerin. This will make a barrier so no oxygen is present.
> 
> I tried this tonight with Fotoplast and UV Nail gel and it works great not a single spot was uncured.


 
  
 Nice tip acain. What is a good source for Glycerin?


----------



## acain

Any pharmacy or grocery store it is usually near the band aids or make up. Its one of the main chemical in hand soaps.


----------



## acain

I   just filled a small cup up with glycerin and put the whole shell in then hit it with a UV light, then washed it off with water and it was tack free.


----------



## acain

Is the GK come with a crossover like the GQ?


----------



## CMOS1138

acain said:


> Is the GK come with a crossover like the GQ?


 
 Yes.


----------



## briancortez2112

acain said:


> Is the GK come with a crossover like the GQ?


 
 Yes


----------



## Shilohsjustice

acain said:


> Looks great its awesome seeing so many new people here. What kind of shell material did you use look nice and clear?




It is uv topcoat.


----------



## shakur1996

shilohsjustice said:


> It is uv topcoat.


 

 UV Top Coat gel for nails? Hmm...can it be really used for contact with inner ear or you guys just use it for testing purposes and the ultimate shells to be inserted to ears will be made from hipoalergic acrylic?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

shakur1996 said:


> UV Top Coat gel for nails? Hmm...can it be really used for contact with inner ear or you guys just use it for testing purposes and the ultimate shells to be inserted to ears will be made from hipoalergic acrylic?




It is inert once cured, the human nail is porus and a reaction would occur if it were not considered hypoallergenic. From a chemical perspective once cured topcoat does not release any chemical/vapor toxigens. 

One truly can not know unless they have tested to make sure they have no reactions. I've had 40hrs + use on my pair and it has proven a cost effective way. If one truly had concern they could cost effectively make them from topcoat then simply coat with fotoplast lacquer made for hearing aids. 

Reading back on this thread, some guys have been using this method for a long while now. Also the subject of safety using nail gel has been talked about as well.


----------



## shakur1996

Thanks for the answer. Please correct me if I'm wrong but the CIEM makers do the acrylic CIEMs from hard acrylic materials bought from companies like Dreve, Detax Audio, etc.?
  
 How CIEMs made from UV topcoat nail gel feel like in ear? Is there any difference in feel/comfort between typical acrylic CIEMs and CIEMs made from such gel?


----------



## acain

shakur1996 said:


> Thanks for the answer. Please correct me if I'm wrong but the CIEM makers do the acrylic CIEMs from hard acrylic materials bought from companies like Dreve, Detax Audio, etc.?
> 
> How CIEMs made from UV topcoat nail gel feel like in ear? Is there any difference in feel/comfort between typical acrylic CIEMs and CIEMs made from such gel?




I have made them both from Dreve and UV Nail gel and they feel exactly the same.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

acain said:


> I have been using Nitrogen to solve the tackiness from uncured acrylic, I have been looking for cheaper alternatives instead of just wiping it off with isopropyl alcohol. Nitrogen works great but my goal is to do this as cheap as possible. So I contacted the company I purchased the Fotoplast from, they told me after it comes out from the UV lights to coat it with Glycerin. This will make a barrier so no oxygen is present.
> 
> I tried this tonight with Fotoplast and UV Nail gel and it works great not a single spot was uncured.


 

 Awesome!! Solving problems daily, this thread is truly amazing!! I'm going to try the "Glycerin on my next build"!!! I should have some drivers from Mouser arrive any day now!!!
  
 So cure, coat w/glycerin, expose to UV again, DONE??


----------



## Furco

acain said:


> I have been using Nitrogen to solve the tackiness from uncured acrylic, I have been looking for cheaper alternatives instead of just wiping it off with isopropyl alcohol. Nitrogen works great but my goal is to do this as cheap as possible. So I contacted the company I purchased the Fotoplast from, they told me after it comes out from the UV lights to coat it with Glycerin. This will make a barrier so no oxygen is present.


 
 I too will be giving the glycerin bath a try.  Thanks for the tip!  
  
 One thing about trying to clean off the uncured sticky layer is that using isopropyl alcohol (91%) causes the surface of the shells to become dull and cloudy.   This was mentioned previously a few pages back and I can confirm 100% that this is true when using UV nail gel.   
  
Has anyone gotten better results using some other solvent like denatured alcohol or a commercial brand of UV nail cleaner?


----------



## Furco

shilohsjustice said:


> The Formica test was a success, mind you my wife didn't approve of my evening project so it was thrown together extremely quickly. I could have finessed a little bit more but wanted to know your thoughts as an option. Could have possibilities as there are hundreds of options.


 
  
 Those look great!  I love what appears to be a thin black and white border around the face plate.  That gives it a terrific finishing touch to my eyes.


----------



## Silverprout

furco said:


> I too will be giving the glycerin bath a try.  Thanks for the tip!
> 
> One thing about trying to clean off the uncured sticky layer is that using isopropyl alcohol (91%) causes the surface of the shells to become dull and cloudy.   This was mentioned previously a few pages back and I can confirm 100% that this is true when using UV nail gel.
> 
> Has anyone gotten better results using some other solvent like denatured alcohol or a commercial brand of UV nail cleaner?


 
  
 Loctite recommends acetone.


----------



## MuZo2

How do you guys buff polish your ciems ?


----------



## Daedalus1116

What do you guys think of a GK(TWFK+CL) and a DTEC? What kind of sound signature would it theoretically give?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

silverprout said:


> Loctite recommends acetone.




I tried Acetone but found it turned my shells yellow. I've had exceptional results with isopropyl but I guess not all topcoats are made equal. 

Try dipping in the "Glycerin" like Acain suggested above, after your initial cure then re-expose under uv. This could prove to be a great step in solving the tacky layer.


----------



## acain

Acetone is actually used to remove nail polish.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

acain said:


> Acetone is actually used to remove nail polish.




Acetone does not remove UV nail gel, as it's a different type of animal. Nail polish and uv gel/topcoat are not the same. Acetone did remove the tacky residue but turned my clear shells yellow.


----------



## acain

shilohsjustice said:


> Awesome!! Solving problems daily, this thread is truly amazing!! I'm going to try the "Glycerin on my next build"!!! I should have some drivers from Mouser arrive any day now!!!
> 
> So cure, coat w/glycerin, expose to UV again, DONE??




Yes try not to get oil from your fingers on the shell.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

muzo2 said:


> How do you guys buff polish your ciems ?





I've tried several methods but yet to find one that truly gives it a glass finish. I've burned shells using wax, I've also tried micro abrasive polish for fine metal and found it works the best for me right now. I'm curious to try the polish recommended several pages back. I use a dremel and polish tip. 

My method:
Cast
Remove excess material with sanding tip and dremel, shape tip
Clean, then second coat, cure
I use a metal round brissel tip to fine finish any blemishes (works great)
Coat, build up/color, clean
Bore holes
Touch up, wire, faceplate, complete seal coat
Fit to comfort, polish


----------



## MuZo2

I like the idea of using nail uv for shell and top coat with dreve but how do you get even top coat everywhere.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Even as in shell thickness or build up?? I have a uv light with a timer, at 30sec I rotate my mold. I leave it under uv exposure for 1min 15sec's. My light uses UV led's on a top plate so I turn it upside down so it cures from bottom up. I burst uv light from my uv flashlight at the channel at the bottom of ear canal on shell, sometimes it can get under exposed. I use wax paper, flip the shell so it drains then re-expose to cure the inside. 

After trial and error it comes out even every time. 

Build up I put on thicker using the brush provided, I use a bar of soap and tooth picks to hold the shells as the uv gel runs together it evenly distributes leaving little to no blemishes. 

I've also flash cured toothpicks to the rim of the shell as a handle to provide stability and enhance the quality of my coat.


----------



## MuZo2

shilohsjustice said:


> Build up I put on thicker using the brush provided, I use a bar of soap and tooth pi kicks to hold the shells as the uv gel runs together it evenly distributes leaving little to no blemishes.


 
 I think your UV top coat is viscous to get even distribution.


----------



## acain

I made good shells usng just a flashlight. I pour uv nail gel in the mold dump it out and cure it, I repeat this until I get the thickness of the shell I want. It comes out very uniform thickness. The nozzle is perfectly hollow it comes out really smooth since I dont use a brush and just rotate the mold to get an even coat. There are very little air bubbles with this method. After that I coat with laquer and it comes out really clear.


----------



## acain

Its amazing the quality of work coming from everyone. People thought I was crazy for making earphones. Just using houshold stuff and rigging things to make shells. Imagine if we all got together and had professional equipment, considering we all got this far and making nice looking pieces. My dream would be to gather about 7 people from this thread and open up a business, sounds a little crazy but we are all here for one thing the ultimate listening experience.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

acain said:


> Its amazing the quality of work coming from everyone. People thought I was crazy for making earphones. Just using houshold stuff and rigging things to make shells. Imagine if we all got together and had professional equipment, considering we all got this far and making nice looking pieces. My dream would be to gather about 7 people from this thread and open up a business, sounds a little crazy but we are all here for one thing the ultimate listening experience.




That would be awesome. What about a CIEM builders summit?? I wonder how many people would be interested! The techniques and ideas are getting broader and broader. The minds on this site could give the industry a run for there money.


----------



## acain

Everyone of us has something to offer some of us are good with shaping the frequency and others are better at making shells. I have been a machinist for over 18 years and have alot of CNC milling experience. I thought about making a shell out of medical grade stainless steel with a stainless steel faceplate with a wood inlay. With everyones talents we could make some never been seen customs. Its just a dream I guess but you only live once.


----------



## hotrod95

I watched a few videos from another thread about the professional processes of making iems.  It is common for them to "sculpt" the impression before molding, and dip it in wax to ensure a proper seal.  Does anyone here have experience doing this?  If so, what techniques/tools do you use.  What parts do you have to sculpt?  If not, do you feel like it works well casting directly from an impression?


----------



## Silverprout

acain said:


> Everyone of us has something to offer some of us are good with shaping the frequency and others are better at making shells. I have been a machinist for over 18 years and have alot of CNC milling experience. I thought about making a shell out of medical grade stainless steel with a stainless steel faceplate with a wood inlay. With everyones talents we could make some never been seen customs. Its just a dream I guess but you only live once.


 

 Pure titanium is certified ISO 10993 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 No cytotoxicity at all... perfect !


----------



## Silverprout

hotrod95 said:


> I watched a few videos from another thread about the professional processes of making iems.  It is common for them to "sculpt" the impression before molding, and dip it in wax to ensure a proper seal.  Does anyone here have experience doing this?  If so, what techniques/tools do you use.  What parts do you have to sculpt?  If not, do you feel like it works well casting directly from an impression?


 

 You have to wax the impressions to make them smooth and a little compressive in order to have confort and a good seal.
 Personnal preferences are not discutable... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 You have to find it by youself


----------



## briancortez2112

I am still trying to find a good mold making material that is clear & cool enough to use wax and not melt it. What is a good source of colloid??


----------



## Shilohsjustice

briancortez2112 said:


> I am still trying to find a good mold making material that is clear & cool enough to use wax and not melt it. What is a good source of colloid??


 

 Are you talking about dipping impressions then creating the investment??


----------



## briancortez2112

shilohsjustice said:


> Are you talking about dipping impressions then creating the investment??


 
 Yes, any info you know of?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

briancortez2112 said:


> Yes, any info you know of?


 

 I have had success using wax with impressions. I, like a few here use Gelatin glycerin for my molds. The key is make your mixture and let it set completely prior to using the material for molds ( put in fridge for a couple hours). put the mixture in the microwave for 10sec @ a time, check and repeat @ 10sec until the Gelatin is liquid. Do not over heat or let it boil. LET IT COOL FOR A BIT SO IT IS JUST WARM to touch, it will not set up on you. Use a plastic spoon and stir it every so often keeping it liquid. Once its just warm it is ready to pour over your wax dipped impressions without melting the wax. Gelitin sets at room temperature which means it has time to cool off prior to pouring. Whats nice is as it sits bubble disappear and it makes a great mold. I've cast 10 or more beautiful shells using the wax method before I found I liked building them up myself and still achieve the same smooth surface.
  
 The uv gel is very forgiving with technique!
  
 I no longer use the wax method but still wait till my Gelatin has cooled to just warm prior to casting because it makes for a better mold.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

acain said:


> Everyone of us has something to offer some of us are good with shaping the frequency and others are better at making shells. I have been a machinist for over 18 years and have alot of CNC milling experience. I thought about making a shell out of medical grade stainless steel with a stainless steel faceplate with a wood inlay. With everyones talents we could make some never been seen customs. Its just a dream I guess but you only live once.


 
  
  
 I'm all about trying new things! This DIY audio pursuit started for me about 6yrs or 7yrs ago with a cMoy alltoids tin headphone amp.
  
 I started looking into some of the tools necessary to do things at a professional level most easily accessible as they are common tools found in the hearing aid trade. New thing in the industry is 3d printed shells, no buffing or finishing. All computer crafted. Takes the art out of each piece being hand made if you ask me. There are aspects of the CIEM that have yet to be discovered and pioneered. New materials to try, and sounds to create!
  
 Who knows maybe one day people will look back at this thread and say it all started there!!! If you decide to get a few people together count me in!!


----------



## acain

shilohsjustice said:


> I'm all about trying new things! This DIY audio pursuit started for me about 6yrs or 7yrs ago with a cMoy alltoids tin headphone amp.
> 
> I started looking into some of the tools necessary to do things at a professional level most easily accessible as they are common tools found in the hearing aid trade. New thing in the industry is 3d printed shells, no buffing or finishing. All computer crafted. Takes the art out of each piece being hand made if you ask me. There are aspects of the CIEM that have yet to be discovered and pioneered. New materials to try, and sounds to create!
> 
> Who knows maybe one day people will look back at this thread and say it all started there!!! If you decide to get a few people together count me in!!


 
  
 I started to do DIY cables than came across this sight and jumped right in. I even went out and bought a bottle of nitrogen  to cure the shells. Could you imagine a couple of DIYers got together and opened up a company. I could see the banner at the next Can-Jam, I looked into the professional equipment and it really isn't that expensive.


----------



## briancortez2112

shilohsjustice said:


> I have had success using wax with impressions. I, like a few here use Gelatin glycerin for my molds. The key is make your mixture and let it set completely prior to using the material for molds ( put in fridge for a couple hours). put the mixture in the microwave for 10sec @ a time, check and repeat @ 10sec until the Gelatin is liquid. Do not over heat or let it boil. LET IT COOL FOR A BIT SO IT IS JUST WARM to touch, it will not set up on you. Use a plastic spoon and stir it every so often keeping it liquid. Once its just warm it is ready to pour over your wax dipped impressions without melting the wax. Gelitin sets at room temperature which means it has time to cool off prior to pouring. Whats nice is as it sits bubble disappear and it makes a great mold. I've cast 10 or more beautiful shells using the wax method before I found I liked building them up myself and still achieve the same smooth surface.
> 
> The uv gel is very forgiving with technique!
> 
> I no longer use the wax method but still wait till my Gelatin has cooled to just warm prior to casting because it makes for a better mold.


 
 Thanks a bunch for that info, its really helpful!


----------



## MuZo2

shilohsjustice said:


> I'm all about trying new things! This DIY audio pursuit started for me about 6yrs or 7yrs ago with a cMoy alltoids tin headphone amp.
> 
> I started looking into some of the tools necessary to do things at a professional level most easily accessible as they are common tools found in the hearing aid trade. New thing in the industry is 3d printed shells, no buffing or finishing. All computer crafted. Takes the art out of each piece being hand made if you ask me. There are aspects of the CIEM that have yet to be discovered and pioneered. New materials to try, and sounds to create!
> 
> Who knows maybe one day people will look back at this thread and say it all started there!!! If you decide to get a few people together count me in!!


 

 Note several CIEM companies already use scanner , cad and printing/milling already. Printing I guess for last 5 years. Milling since 6months (Noble audio).


----------



## FARfromHOME

How about vacuum forming the shells? Brainfart?


----------



## FARfromHOME

Let me explain what I mean:
At work we sometimes use Mylar for vacforming. 
It is BoPET. 
"BoPET (Biaxially-oriented polyethylene terephthalate) is a polyester film made from stretched polyethylene terephthalate (PET) and is used for its high tensile strength, chemical and dimensional stability, transparency, reflectivity, gas and aroma barrier properties, and electrical insulation."
Only problem I can predict is material getting very thin at the furthest point of the mold.
On the plus side It is strong and can be filled with UV glue or lacquer to make it less bendy.
Planning to make some shells the classical UV glue/lacquer way this weekend. If I get time next week - will try vacforming some.


----------



## MuZo2

What type of mold will your create for vacuum forming? Wont it be too expensive to create mold for vacuum forming?


----------



## briancortez2112

Gave the owner his ciem's that I been working on, he said they fit great


----------



## FARfromHOME

muzo2 said:


> What type of mold will your create for vacuum forming? Wont it be too expensive to create mold for vacuum forming?



 



No, not expensive.
Any material will do as long as it can stand a bit of heat and is not soft. Even the shell out of acrylic will do.
The mold does not get heated, only Mylar. Only heat the mold gets is from hot Mylar once vacuuming.


----------



## acain

farfromhome said:


> Let me explain what I mean:
> At work we sometimes use Mylar for vacforming.
> It is BoPET.
> "BoPET (Biaxially-oriented polyethylene terephthalate) is a polyester film made from stretched polyethylene terephthalate (PET) and is used for its high tensile strength, chemical and dimensional stability, transparency, reflectivity, gas and aroma barrier properties, and electrical insulation."
> ...




How thick is the mylar?


----------



## Furco

briancortez2112 said:


> Gave the owner his ciem's that I been working on, he said they fit great


 
  
 How'd he like the sound?  BA's take a little getting used to if all you are used to are dynamic drivers.


----------



## FARfromHOME

acain said:


> How thick is the mylar?



 


It comes in several thicknesses. 
I will let you know how it goes.


----------



## acain

farfromhome said:


> acain said:
> 
> 
> > How thick is the mylar?
> ...


 
  
 Looking forward too it I have done some vacuum forming at home. I thought about it, but was worried it would come out to thick  and the plastic wouldn't form into the cartilage area good enough.


----------



## Daedalus1116

Does anybody know what drivers the JH Roxanne uses? XD


----------



## acain

Daedalus1116 said:
			
		

> Does anybody know what drivers the JH Roxanne uses? XD


 

 JH Audio has proprietary drivers made for them.


----------



## briancortez2112

furco said:


> How'd he like the sound?  BA's take a little getting used to if all you are used to are dynamic drivers.



These are his text to me, he's a musician..

Dude! I LOVE them!!! I made my singing more confident! I can't believe how awesome it sounded. Thanks a ton bro. 
 I can't even begin to tell you how much of a difference it is. I was able to hear harmonies and notes I've never heard before. Cuz I could correct myself if I was off! Sooo good! I know I'm the repeating myself but it's soo awesome!


----------



## acain

briancortez2112 said:


> These are his text to me, he's a musician..
> 
> Dude! I LOVE them!!! I made my singing more confident! I can't believe how awesome it sounded. Thanks a ton bro.
> I can't even begin to tell you how much of a difference it is. I was able to hear harmonies and notes I've never heard before. Cuz I could correct myself if I was off! Sooo good! I know I'm the repeating myself but it's soo awesome!


 

 That's awesome did you make a crossover for them?


----------



## TheoS53

Wahoo...So I reckon I've got making hollow shells pretty well now. Just ordered some BAs for my set (TWFK and CI...sorry guys, I got the last 2 CIs from Mouser ), and GQ for my girlfriend's set. Can't wait for the parts to arrive


----------



## acain

theos53 said:


> Wahoo...So I reckon I've got making hollow shells pretty well now. Just ordered some BAs for my set (TWFK and CI...sorry guys, I got the last 2 CIs from Mouser ), and GQ for my girlfriend's set. Can't wait for the parts to arrive


 
 Post some pictures for us. What did you use Nail gel or hearing aid acrylic?


----------



## Daedalus1116

What kind of sound does a DTEC produce? How would it pair to a GK(Cl+TWFK)?


----------



## TheoS53

acain said:


> Post some pictures for us. What did you use Nail gel or hearing aid acrylic?


 
 I decided to go the proper route. Honestly, I know the whole point of DIY is to try and make something with all kinds of exotic processes and ingredients, but using the proper stuff is just so much easier. 
  
 For the shells I've got Dreve Fotoplast, and also have the Dreve Lack 3 for final finish, buildup, and attaching the faceplate. For making the negative mold I'm using the colloid gel that I got from Lightning Enterprises. It was only $18 + $6 shipping for 1 Lb, and the stuff works great. And you can use it again and again and again. I just put some in a styrofoam cup, pop it in the microwave for around 30 seconds until all of it is melted, let it stand for around 10 mins or until all the bubble are gone, then pour it in the glass cup to make the negative, pop the cup in the fridge for 10-15 mins and its done. So much faster than trying with gelatin. 
  
 To make the shell I just pour the Fotoplast into the negative, cover the top, put it in the UV chamber for 1 min, remove the cover and pour out the excess, then put it back in the chamber for around 5 mins. JOB DONE!
  
 Will post pics soon


----------



## TheoS53

daedalus1116 said:


> What kind of sound does a DTEC produce? How would it pair to a GK(Cl+TWFK)?


 
 What I still don't understand is that if you were to buy the CI+TWFK, it's $75....but the GK is only $50...so whats the catch?


----------



## Daedalus1116

theos53 said:


> What I still don't understand is that if you were to buy the CI+TWFK, it's $75....but the GK is only $50...so whats the catch?


 
 I think because it is much cheaper to produce in large quantity.


----------



## TheoS53

daedalus1116 said:


> I think because it is much cheaper to produce in large quantity.


 
 Hmm..perhaps. And I do like the fact that the GK already has a x-over on it. DAMMIT, hope I didn't just waste $50 getting 2 x CI and 2 x TWFK BAs lol


----------



## Daedalus1116

theos53 said:


> Hmm..perhaps. And I do like the fact that the GK already has a x-over on it. DAMMIT, hope I didn't just waste $50 getting 2 x CI and 2 x TWFK BAs lol


 
 The good thing is that you can place them separately.


----------



## TheoS53

daedalus1116 said:


> The good thing is that you can place them separately.


 
 that's also true. 

 The GQ drivers are also pretty interesting. Initially I wanted to use CI+TWFK for my girlfriends set as well, but hear left ear canal is so collapsed, there's only enough space for 1 sound tube. So spent a few days checking out some alternative drivers and settled on the GQ. It's got a pretty flat response curve.


----------



## Daedalus1116

theos53 said:


> that's also true.
> 
> The GQ drivers are also pretty interesting. Initially I wanted to use CI+TWFK for my girlfriends set as well, but hear left ear canal is so collapsed, there's only enough space for 1 sound tube. So spent a few days checking out some alternative drivers and settled on the GQ. It's got a pretty flat response curve.


 
  
 What drivers is the GQ made up of? On the subject of sound tubes, several have had success in only using a single sound tube for the GK. Or, you could just have the GK directly inline with the ear canal since the driver is so small.


----------



## Furco

T





briancortez2112 said:


> These are his text to me, he's a musician..
> 
> Dude! I LOVE them!!! I made my singing more confident! I can't believe how awesome it sounded. Thanks a ton bro.
> I can't even begin to tell you how much of a difference it is. I was able to hear harmonies and notes I've never heard before. Cuz I could correct myself if I was off! Sooo good! I know I'm the repeating myself but it's soo awesome!




That's awesome. Independent feedback really validates your work. Congrats!!


----------



## TheoS53

daedalus1116 said:


>


 
 How would you put a single sound tube on a dual port driver like the GK?
  
 Not sure what drivers the GQ uses. But it's only a 2-way, not 3-way like the GK, and only has a single port


----------



## Daedalus1116

theos53 said:


> How would you put a single sound tube on a dual port driver like the GK?


 
  
 I've read that they would expand an end of the tube using a plier and heat on one direction so that it is tall enough to cover both sound port. Of course, this is not ideal and will probably have effect on audio quality due to interference.


----------



## TheoS53

daedalus1116 said:


> I've read that they would expand an end of the tube using a plier and heat on one direction so that it is tall enough to cover both sound port. Of course, this is not ideal and will probably have effect on audio quality due to interference.


 
 Yeah that would be my guess too


----------



## acain

theos53 said:


> How would you put a single sound tube on a dual port driver like the GK?
> 
> Not sure what drivers the GQ uses. But it's only a 2-way, not 3-way like the GK, and only has a single port


 

 You can expand the acoustic tubing and heat it up a little bit so it stays in form you can make a Y splitter.


----------



## acain

theos53 said:


> I decided to go the proper route. Honestly, I know the whole point of DIY is to try and make something with all kinds of exotic processes and ingredients, but using the proper stuff is just so much easier.
> 
> For the shells I've got Dreve Fotoplast, and also have the Dreve Lack 3 for final finish, buildup, and attaching the faceplate. For making the negative mold I'm using the colloid gel that I got from Lightning Enterprises. It was only $18 + $6 shipping for 1 Lb, and the stuff works great. And you can use it again and again and again. I just put some in a styrofoam cup, pop it in the microwave for around 30 seconds until all of it is melted, let it stand for around 10 mins or until all the bubble are gone, then pour it in the glass cup to make the negative, pop the cup in the fridge for 10-15 mins and its done. So much faster than trying with gelatin.
> 
> ...


 

 Nice job I bought everything from there as well and pretty much did the same exact thing. I found a dealer that sells Egger UV hearing aid material, my next build will be made from Egger.


----------



## acain

theos53 said:


> Hmm..perhaps. And I do like the fact that the GK already has a x-over on it. DAMMIT, hope I didn't just waste $50 getting 2 x CI and 2 x TWFK BAs lol


 

 I think the GK is cheaper because of supply and demand, they probably sell more of them for drop in applications and can keep the cost down.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

acain said:


> Nice job I bought everything from there as well and pretty much did the same exact thing. I found a dealer that sells Egger UV hearing aid material, my next build will be made from Egger.




Acain, how did you go about locating a dealer for the Egger UV. I stopped by a hearing aid store and made a few phone calls, they send all there work out to a lab. I live in Florida and there are literally 3 CIEM labs within 60miles of me in Clearwater, I have emailed asking advice and help. All with no reply, I guess if I bombard them they may give me some answers.


----------



## TheoS53

shilohsjustice said:


> Acain, how did you go about locating a dealer for the Egger UV. I stopped by a hearing aid store and made a few phone calls, they send all there work out to a lab. I live in Florida and there are literally 3 CIEM labs within 60miles of me in Clearwater, I have emailed asking advice and help. All with no reply, I guess if I bombard them they may give me some answers.


 
 If I may ask, why are you specifically looking for Egger? The Dreve stuff works great


----------



## acain

theos53 said:


> If I may ask, why are you specifically looking for Egger? The Dreve stuff works great


 
 The Dreve does work great, I just want to see the difference of how they produce shells. A lot off people used Egger and liked it a lot, and you also get more for your money compared to Dreve, you get 50grams more for about the same price.


----------



## tranhieu

theos53 said:


> If I may ask, why are you specifically looking for Egger? The Dreve stuff works great


 
 Egger is harder to work with but the overall quality is higher (transparency, durability etc). Once you got the hang of it you can use both for different stages. Not that it's important though.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

theos53 said:


> If I may ask, why are you specifically looking for Egger? The Dreve stuff works great




Egger material is a little more cost effective, I certainly do not doubt the Fotoplast and I plan on trying both products as I have attained exceptional quality results with uv gel. I was curious to know how Acain went about finding a supplier.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

tranhieu said:


> Egger is harder to work with but the overall quality is higher (transparency, durability etc). Once you got the hang of it you can use both for different stages. Not that it's important though.




Do you know at what UV intensity the Egger sets up at?? Do you need a variable intensity uv chamber or will a UV range of 395nm - 400nm work, either from UV flashlight or UV led module??


----------



## tranhieu

shilohsjustice said:


> Do you know at what UV intensity the Egger sets up at?? Do you need a variable intensity uv chamber or will a UV range of 395nm - 400nm work, either from UV flashlight or UV led module??


 
 400nm is too high. You can get the 365nm from ebay which works a lot better. Their durability is unguaranteed though.
  
 In my experience the Egger cures way faster than the Dreve thus more difficult timing. You can cheat by partially covering the UV bulbs or even the negative mold itself. In essence, some parts of the shell need to be thicker than others especially when you do multifold designs.


----------



## piotrus-g

Hey guys, I went back few pages back to catch up but you put so much content it's pretty much impossible for me, which is a good sign because you guys seem to be working hard.
  
 It seems like there are few issues I'm noticing.
 Two major are:
 1. Cross-over and tuning
 2. Shell making - in general
  
 RE2: I don't feel competent enough to give tips on acrylic shell making now, but here's what I observed. In some areas Egger products are the same as Dreve, in some they are inferior to Dreve and in other they are superior. F.e. clear LH/P or UV lacquer - those materials are better than fotoplast. Egger in many areas seem as if they took Dreve materials and put more thought into it and made them better, but this also come with higher skills needed to process those materials (or better equipment).
 RE1: It looks like most of you guys don't have access to quality (I cant stress that enough - quality) measuring equipment. That said I will try to come up with 2-3 easy-to-use basic designs for some of the most popular drivers used here. That way you'll be able to make some small variation to it changing overall sound but avoiding issues like phase problems which is PITA with drivers like DTEC + TWFK.


----------



## acain

piotrus-g said:


> Hey guys, I went back few pages back to catch up but you put so much content it's pretty much impossible for me, which is a good sign because you guys seem to be working hard.
> 
> It seems like there are few issues I'm noticing.
> Two major are:
> ...


 

 That would be great, we need a list of proven setups with the list of crossovers. I think the tuning and crossover is the hardest part.


----------



## acain

A lot of people think the higher the UV wave length number is the stronger it is, but it is the opposite. In my experience Fotoplast cures the best with a wave length of 365nm.


----------



## TheoS53

Do you guys maybe have any tips for drilling the hole(s) for the tubing?
  
 I tried making them, but the drill bit heats up the acrylic and cracks it. I either have to find a way to make the canal part of the shell more hollow, or to put something in the negative mold which would then allow me to pour the acrylic around this thing and then take it out aftwerwards....problem being getting it out after the acrylic has cured.
  
 So any suggestions, please?


----------



## acain

theos53 said:


> Do you guys maybe have any tips for drilling the hole(s) for the tubing?
> 
> I tried making them, but the drill bit heats up the acrylic and cracks it. I either have to find a way to make the canal part of the shell more hollow, or to put something in the negative mold which would then allow me to pour the acrylic around this thing and then take it out aftwerwards....problem being getting it out after the acrylic has cured.
> 
> So any suggestions, please?


 

 I use a round  dermal bit , the best way I made a completely hollow nozzle is to make the shell by hand and a uv flashlight. I pour the fotoplast or uv gel in the mold and dump the excess and cure. I keep repeating this until I get the thickness I want.


----------



## Mython

theos53 said:


> Do you guys maybe have any tips for drilling the hole(s) for the tubing?
> 
> I tried making them, but the drill bit heats up the acrylic and cracks it. I either have to find a way to make the canal part of the shell more hollow, or to put something in the negative mold which would then allow me to pour the acrylic around this thing and then take it out aftwerwards....problem being getting it out after the acrylic has cured.
> 
> So any suggestions, please?


 
  


acain said:


> I use a round  dermal bit , the best way I made a completely hollow nozzle is to make the shell by hand and a uv flashlight. I pour the fotoplast or uv gel in the mold and dump the excess and cure. I keep repeating this until I get the thickness I want.


 
  
  
  
  
 (As posted *<**in this threa**d>* ):
  
  
  

  
 Go to time point 4:15  (direct link: http://youtu.be/JWdwikZoXzA?t=4m15s )
  
  
 And here:
  

  
 Go to time point 1:42  (direct link: http://youtu.be/kbKSe_e6fYQ?t=1m42s )
  
  
 And here:
  

  
 Go to time point 2:16  (direct link: http://youtu.be/pu4IuJDuQ-0?t=2m16s )
  
  
  
 .


----------



## CMOS1138

I find that my best success with shells comes from material with longer cure times, I get a more even shell thickness out of slower curing material. After creating a shell that is a little too thin with the slow curing material, I coat the inside with a faster curing material to add rigidity.


----------



## TheoS53

mython said:


> (As posted *here* ):
> 
> 
> 
> ...




 Thanks for the vids, but I dont think the problem is using a drillbit rather than with the Dremel...It's the thickness of the shell at the canal part that is causing the issue here


----------



## Mython

theos53 said:


> Thanks for the vids, but I dont think the problem is using a drillbit rather than with the Dremel...It's the thickness of the shell at the canal part that is causing the issue here


 
  
  
 Perhaps it's a combination of both, but you have more experience than me, with acrylic, so I bow to your greater experience. However, I do know that conventional drillbits have a tendency to shatter brittle materials much more easily than tungsten carbide burrs, as their aggressive and deep spiral tries to draw the bit into the material too quickly, leading to it trying to cut too aggressively.


----------



## Mython

I'd love to see how _silicone_ CIEMs are made, but all the silicone CIEM vendors (including Peter! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





) are keeping very schtum about the method! lol


----------



## TheoS53

mython said:


> Perhaps it's a combination of both, but you have more experience than me, with acrylic, so I bow to your greater experience. However, I do know that conventional drillbits have a tendency to shatter brittle materials much more easily than tungsten carbide burrs, as their aggressive and deep spiral tries to draw the bit into the material too quickly, leading to it trying to cut too aggressively.


 
 well it only breaks once i can physically feel it getting warm. You may very well be right though, perhaps it is a combo of both


----------



## Mython

Either way, I hope you find a successful solution.
  
 I really admire all of you taking the DIY route to CIEM nirvana.  I like the idea of trying it myself, and maybe one day I will, but it's a big undertaking... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Then again, so are fullsize DIY loudspeakers, and I thoroughly enjoyed the many pairs I made, of various types, some years ago.


----------



## TheoS53

mython said:


> Either way, I hope you find a successful solution.
> 
> I really admire all of you taking the DIY route to CIEM nirvana.  I like the idea of trying it myself, and maybe one day I will, but it's a big undertaking...


 
 it's really not as difficult as you might imagine. just take a little bit of practice


----------



## Mython

theos53 said:


> it's really not as difficult as you might imagine. just take a little bit of practice


 
  
 Well, I'm good with manual skills of home manufacture of wood, plastic, metal objects, etc. but I lack electronics expertise, so, as observed by Peter, a few posts ago, the trickiest part for many of us, not least me, is the electrical configuration of the components in order to attain appropriate sound quality.


----------



## TheoS53

mython said:


> Well, I'm good with manual skills of home manufacture of wood, plastic, metal objects, etc. but I lack electronics expertise, so, as observed by Peter, a few posts ago, the trickiest part for many of us, not least me, is the electrical configuration of the components in order to attain appropriate sound quality.


 
 That's true. That's the step I still need to get to :-D


----------



## acain

Here are some shells made from uv gel then cured in a glycerin bath they came out smooth as glass and tack free.


----------



## TheoS53

acain said:


> Here are some shells made from uv gel then cured in a glycerin bath they came out smooth as glass and tack free.


 
 those look great. how did you get the transparent red colour?


----------



## acain

I have used a round ball dremal bit to hollow out a whole solid shell before. Using a regular drill bit for the canal doesn't work well at all. The never had any problems using the dremal bits.


----------



## acain

theos53 said:


> those look great. how did you get the transparent red colour?


 

 I used clear top coat gel, and I have transparent tints from lightning enterprise. The tints are pretty cheap there not listed on there site you have to call and ask for them.


----------



## acain

They were all made from a flashlight also with a silicone mold. I made a pair of silicone molds because there are very sturdy, unlike the hydrocolliod. I use the hydrocolloid if I am using my uv chamber.


----------



## piotrus-g

mython said:


> I'd love to see how _silicone_ CIEMs are made, but all the silicone CIEM vendors (including Peter!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

  
 sorry.


----------



## Mython

acain said:


> I used clear top coat gel, and I have transparent tints from lightning enterprise. The tints are pretty cheap there not listed on there site you have to call and ask for them.


 
  
  
 Beautiful job; well done!
  
 Reminds me a bit of the Noble K10, as JM is fond of using the amber colour (though he does not, IMHO, share enough credit with his talented shell-making team in China).    ...which leads me to ask this question:
  
_Has anyone in this thread experimented with adding gold leaf flakes to the acrylic?_
  
  
_._


----------



## Mython

piotrus-g said:


> sorry.


 
  
 No you're not!


----------



## acain

It would be pretty easy to add gold flakes, in nail salon stores they sell all sorts of stuff that can be added to the gels endless options.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

acain said:


> Here are some shells made from uv gel then cured in a glycerin bath they came out smooth as glass and tack free.




Great work!!!


----------



## Shilohsjustice

acain said:


> I used clear top coat gel, and I have transparent tints from lightning enterprise. The tints are pretty cheap there not listed on there site you have to call and ask for them.




Are the tints a pigment added to your raw material, or is it a coating added like a laquer. What was the color name?? Would look awesome with a tortoise shell face plate like the pick gaurd of a Fender Strat!!!


----------



## Shilohsjustice

piotrus-g

I know it's off the current subject of "shell fabrication" but I wanted to know if you knew what cap and res are used on the GK-31732. I have sacrificed a GK driver in hopes they had the values stamped, they sadly do not. I've been following the thread for a while now and have only recently begun to contribute but had a few questions relating to determining ideal crossover frequencies. I've had a few bits of luck using x over and understand crossover schematics and complexities but need some simple direction on ideal crossover points for a 2xhi, hi/mid, mid/low, low setup. This would be a 7 driver setup with a 4 way crossover. 20hrz - 15khrz range. 

I'm calling knowles in the morning to see if they could provide the information relating to the cap/res on the GK. I would assume it's not proprietary as crossovers are pretty standard. We will see!!! 

I wanted to mention also to all out there that there is some incredible information way way back on the first 45 pages relating to drivers and set ups.


----------



## acain

shilohsjustice said:


> Are the tints a pigment added to your raw material, or is it a coating added like a laquer. What was the color name?? Would look awesome with a tortoise shell face plate like the pick gaurd of a Fender Strat!!!




Its a tint I mix in with the clear gel.


----------



## Furco

shilohsjustice said:


> @piotrus-g
> 
> I know it's off the current subject of "shell fabrication" but I wanted to know if you knew what cap and res are used on the GK-31732. I have sacrificed a GK driver in hopes they had the values stamped, they sadly do not. I've been following the thread for a while now and have only recently begun to contribute but had a few questions relating to determining ideal crossover frequencies. I've had a few bits of luck using x over and understand crossover schematics and complexities but need some simple direction on ideal crossover points for a 2xhi, hi/mid, mid/low, low setup. This would be a 7 driver setup with a 4 way crossover. 20hrz - 15khrz range.
> 
> ...


 
  
@Shilohsjustice, here a rambling of my experiences with multi-driver tuning:
 * In practice, low pass crossovers don't react the way they do on paper.  You don't get a nice orderly drop in SPL above the crossover frequency.  For example, let's say you wanted a lp filter at 250Hz.  So you run your calculations and determine that a 33uF cap and 20ohm resistor will do the trick.  On paper, you should have a theoretical reduction of 20dB by 2500Hz.  Let's say that's not good enough and you decided to make it a 2nd order cross over so that by 2500Hz, you'll have a 40dB reduction.  When you wire it all up and check your frequency response, you're puzzled by the fact that at 2500Hz, you're only seeing about a 22dB reduction and that higher frequencies still have fairly substantial SPL regardless of how far away they are from the cut-off frequency.  Also, needing to use resistors means you're sacrificing low end SPL.  Depending on your design, this may or may not be a problem.
  
 * High Pass crossovers work as expected. I haven't found a need for using a resistor and putting a cap inline with the driver works extremely well at attenuating frequencies below the cut-off.  I wish low pass filters worked as good as high pass ones.
  
* Generally speaking, a 1st Order low pass filters can be replaced by reducing the inner diameter of the acoustic tubing.  In my testing with a DTECs and CIs,  a 0.5mm ID get's you near 1kHz depending on how long the tube.  I like this approach because you don't get any reduction in SPL of the low frequencies like you do with a RC low pass crossover.
  
 * Very strange things can happen when you start adding more and more drivers to your configuration.  I was doing some experimenting where I was wiring up 2 CIs and a DTEC with no cross overs but each had it's own tube.  When they were all wired up, my low frequencies were non-existent.  It made no sense.  Then I started switching polarity on the drivers and what sounded okay was having 1 CI wired normally, the 2nd CI wired in reverse and the DTEC wired in reverse.  It was the strangest thing.  In another set of experiments, I had 2 drivers wired up and was watching an FFT graph while playing pink noise through the drivers.  I attached a 3rd driver and watched in astonishment the mid-frequencies, 2kHz - 5kHz go pancake flat whereas before adding the 3rd driver, they had a peak at 2.5kHz and 5kHz and a deep valley at 4kHz. 
  
  
 I guess the moral of the story is, get a protoboard, build a frequency response test rig, find free spectrum analyzer software then experiment, experiment, experiment....


----------



## TheoS53

furco said:


> @Shilohsjustice, here a rambling of my experiences with multi-driver tuning:
> * In practice, low pass crossovers don't react the way they do on paper.  You don't get a nice orderly drop in SPL above the crossover frequency.  For example, let's say you wanted a lp filter at 250Hz.  So you run your calculations and determine that a 33uF cap and 20ohm resistor will do the trick.  On paper, you should have a theoretical reduction of 20dB by 2500Hz.  Let's say that's not good enough and you decided to make it a 2nd order cross over so that by 2500Hz, you'll have a 40dB reduction.  When you wire it all up and check your frequency response, you're puzzled by the fact that at 2500Hz, you're only seeing about a 22dB reduction and that higher frequencies still have fairly substantial SPL regardless of how far away they are from the cut-off frequency.  Also, needing to use resistors means you're sacrificing low end SPL.  Depending on your design, this may or may not be a problem.
> 
> * High Pass crossovers work as expected. I haven't found a need for using a resistor and putting a cap inline with the driver works extremely well at attenuating frequencies below the cut-off.  I wish low pass filters worked as good as high pass ones.
> ...


 
 The only reason things will seem strange is if we don't understand them fully. That being said, I don't have a clue on how to setup a crossover. I'm just spit-ballin' here, but did you take the resistance of the drivers themselves into account?


----------



## Furco

theos53 said:


> The only reason things will seem strange is if we don't understand them fully. That being said, I don't have a clue on how to setup a crossover. I'm just spit-ballin' here, but did you take the resistance of the drivers themselves into account?




True that! What seems unexplainable to me may be elementary to someone else. 

Taking the resistance of the drivers is a point of contention when designing a crossover. In the testing that I did, I didn't use the driver impedance and cutoff frequency was spot on.


----------



## piotrus-g

shilohsjustice said:


> @piotrus-g
> 
> I know it's off the current subject of "shell fabrication" but I wanted to know if you knew what cap and res are used on the GK-31732. I have sacrificed a GK driver in hopes they had the values stamped, they sadly do not. I've been following the thread for a while now and have only recently begun to contribute but had a few questions relating to determining ideal crossover frequencies. I've had a few bits of luck using x over and understand crossover schematics and complexities but need some simple direction on ideal crossover points for a 2xhi, hi/mid, mid/low, low setup. This would be a 7 driver setup with a 4 way crossover. 20hrz - 15khrz range.
> 
> ...


 
 I do have GK (I'm not sure about numbering but i guess there's only one GK available, I got it from mouser). I can measure it but not this week.
  
 You are looking at very complicated design and don't get me wrong I hope you're going to nail it but it would took me few weeks of constant work to get it right. I understand you want "high-end" but high-end doesn't mean high driver count, and that's something you have to accept it. Bad 7 driver will sound worse than good 3-driver. Good 3 driver can be made with little resources, good 7 driver require a lot of work. A LOT.
 Also what driver are you planning on using.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

furco said:


> @Shilohsjustice, here a rambling of my experiences with multi-driver tuning:
> * In practice, low pass crossovers don't react the way they do on paper.  You don't get a nice orderly drop in SPL above the crossover frequency.  For example, let's say you wanted a lp filter at 250Hz.  So you run your calculations and determine that a 33uF cap and 20ohm resistor will do the trick.  On paper, you should have a theoretical reduction of 20dB by 2500Hz.  Let's say that's not good enough and you decided to make it a 2nd order cross over so that by 2500Hz, you'll have a 40dB reduction.  When you wire it all up and check your frequency response, you're puzzled by the fact that at 2500Hz, you're only seeing about a 22dB reduction and that higher frequencies still have fairly substantial SPL regardless of how far away they are from the cut-off frequency.  Also, needing to use resistors means you're sacrificing low end SPL.  Depending on your design, this may or may not be a problem.
> 
> * High Pass crossovers work as expected. I haven't found a need for using a resistor and putting a cap inline with the driver works extremely well at attenuating frequencies below the cut-off.  I wish low pass filters worked as good as high pass ones.
> ...


 

 Thank you, thank you, thank you! Great information!!! I have using a crossover calculator to determine caps and res  but most calculators account factor in inductors as well, obviously I am not using inductors. I do account for the resistance of the drivers as well as the sensitivity of the drivers.
  
 I think my two main problems are:
 1. I'm over complicating the crossover and just need to stick with a second order crossover and use filters to attenuate the frequency cure.
 2. I've gone as far as I can go without using measuring equipment!!! I see how important this is at this point.
  
 (I still would like to know what the GK driver used in it's crossover as it would help some DIY projects using TWFK and CL drivers.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

piotrus-g said:


> I do have GK (I'm not sure about numbering but i guess there's only one GK available, I got it from mouser). I can measure it but not this week.
> 
> You are looking at very complicated design and don't get me wrong I hope you're going to nail it but it would took me few weeks of constant work to get it right. I understand you want "high-end" but high-end doesn't mean high driver count, and that's something you have to accept it. Bad 7 driver will sound worse than good 3-driver. Good 3 driver can be made with little resources, good 7 driver require a lot of work. A LOT.
> Also what driver are you planning on using.


 
  
 I greatly appreciate your response, After reading yours and Furco's responses I have decided to scrap such an endeavoring project for right now. I will stick with second order crossovers and smaller designs and focus on measuring equipment. My pursuit is not as one just to do it to say I did, but do it in a manner that would exemplify the raw craving for perfect sound. I realize I can not get there with out the help of measuring equipment. If you get around to measuring the GK driver that would be awesome!!!
  
 I, for now will stick with my 3 and 4 driver setups as they are working very well for me right now. 7 driver setup sounds great but you are right!!! A 3 way setup done right can accomplish alot and rival high end systems!
  
 Thanks again!


----------



## piotrus-g

You don't need second order crossovers, use first order.
 Simple designs are the most effective ones!


----------



## MuZo2

furco said:


> @Shilohsjustice, here a rambling of my experiences with multi-driver tuning:
> * In practice, low pass crossovers don't react the way they do on paper.


 
 What about acoustic LP?


----------



## Furco

muzo2 said:


> What about acoustic LP?


 
 As far as acoustic filters (e.g. Knowles green, red, white, yellow, etc....),  I've got a lot less experience with testing these than I do when I was trying to understand LP passive filters using resistors and caps.  Generally speaking, acoustic filters can smooth out "bumy" high-end frequencies.  I'm going assume they are much MUCH more reliable/predictable then trying to pack wool or some other textile into the tube to fashion your own damper.  I am using an orange filter (3300ohm) one of my designs and it removed the harshness I was hearing in the upper frequencies.  Some people may offer up the criticism that an orange damper is too much and that I may loose details in the music but at the end of the day, using a lower resistance acoustic filter didn't do what I wanted.  
  
@Shilohsjustice - From one perfectionist to another, good luck finding that perfect sound.    It's like the hunting for the Holy Grail.  You think you hear a glimpse of it out of the corner of your ear but you just can't get there so you but a new driver, and another, and another....  I will say, the more you experiment, the easier it is to throw together a particular config that sounds pretty damn good.  I've been working with CI and DTECs for the better part of 3 months, and have spent hundreds of hours experimenting with these two drivers.  Tube sizes (length and ID), passive RC crossovers of all different configurations, numerous different textiles for a try at DIY dampers, such as wool, various density foams, and even silver coated polyester I made when I was at university have all been experimented with for each driver.  I've go so many graphs of my tests, it's ridiculous.   Also, the broader the landscape of music you tend to listen to, the more challenging it might be to put together an cIEM that can handle all of it very well.  One config I had was glorious -- angels from heaven -- while listening to acoustic/folk artists, it brought tears to my eyes.  But then jumping into something with a lot more energy (e.g. Chevelle, Deftones) , it sounded pretty awful, though it could probably be argued by some that "heavier" music is just plain awful.  But I digress....  Suffice to say, I like a broad range of music which has made my quest for the Grail, a bit frustrating.  
  
 The problem with testing with only your ears is that they start to become tone-deaf, for lack of a better word, after a while.  Also, if you're using a protoboard, sometimes you get poor connections that cause, for example, your CI to sound like a tin can.  You'll be surprised at the fact that one configuration that you liked 2 days ago sounds kind of crappy today, for one reason or another.
  
 I'll write up how I do frequency response testing using my DIY test rig.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

furco said:


> @Shilohsjustice - From one perfectionist to another, good luck finding that perfect sound.    It's like the hunting for the Holy Grail.  You think you hear a glimpse of it out of the corner of your ear but you just can't get there so you but a new driver, and another, and another....  I will say, the more you experiment, the easier it is to throw together a particular config that sounds pretty damn good.  I've been working with CI and DTECs for the better part of 3 months, and have spent hundreds of hours experimenting with these two drivers.  Tube sizes (length and ID), passive RC crossovers of all different configurations, numerous different textiles for a try at DIY dampers, such as wool, various density foams, and even silver coated polyester I made when I was at university have all been experimented with for each driver.  I've go so many graphs of my tests, it's ridiculous.   Also, the broader the landscape of music you tend to listen to, the more challenging it might be to put together an cIEM that can handle all of it very well.  One config I had was glorious -- angels from heaven -- while listening to acoustic/folk artists, it brought tears to my eyes.  But then jumping into something with a lot more energy (e.g. Chevelle, Deftones) , it sounded pretty awful, though it could probably be argued by some that "heavier" music is just plain awful.  But I digress....  Suffice to say, I like a broad range of music which has made my quest for the Grail, a bit frustrating.


 
 I concur with you!! My experience is not as extensive as yours but my pursuit brought me to CIEM's because I play guitar onstage using an AVIOM system. My Sure SE215 just didn't do it for me and I was impressed with my band leaders UE's. Live sound's are so very different than music played back. I find my CIEM's sound incredible onstage and have tremendously improved my style of guitar playing by isolating frequencies I couldn't hear before. That same headset sounds completely different plugged up into my iPod and then even more different plugged through a headphone amp. Sound is a picky and is an unpredictable beast!! I appreciate all the input as it has helped me take my abilities to the next level!!!


----------



## piotrus-g

shilohsjustice said:


> I concur with you!! My experience is not as extensive as yours but my pursuit brought me to CIEM's because I play guitar onstage using an AVIOM system. My Sure SE215 just didn't do it for me and I was impressed with my band leaders UE's. Live sound's are so very different than music played back. I find my CIEM's sound incredible onstage and have tremendously improved my style of guitar playing by isolating frequencies I couldn't hear before. That same headset sounds completely different plugged up into my iPod and then even more different plugged through a headphone amp. Sound is a picky and is an unpredictable beast!! I appreciate all the input as it has helped me take my abilities to the next level!!!


 

 What UE's your friend has?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

I will text him to see, I can't recall off the top of my head.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

He 





piotrus-g said:


> What UE's your friend has?




He has UE pro 7's and UE universals but not sure the model as he is out of the office right now but will txt me later with the model.


----------



## piotrus-g

shilohsjustice said:


> He
> He has UE pro 7's and UE universals but not sure the model as he is out of the office right now but will txt me later with the model.


 
 Then make a simple copy of it. It's a triple driver 2-way. with equivalent of 2x CI-22955 and ED-29689


----------



## Furco

piotrus-g said:


> Then make a simple copy of it. It's a triple driver 2-way. with equivalent of 2x CI-22955 and ED-29689


 
  
 In case anyone interested, this link was provided many many pages ago by tranheiu:
  
 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AoHxSlnX1Un0dC1iMS1qN1VMODV4Wnd0a0xiNHVXLVE&gid=0
  
 It lists drivers used in for many custom and universal IEMs.


----------



## shakur1996

furco said:


> In case anyone interested, this link was provided many many pages ago by tranheiu:
> 
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AoHxSlnX1Un0dC1iMS1qN1VMODV4Wnd0a0xiNHVXLVE&gid=0
> 
> It lists drivers used in for many custom and universal IEMs.


 

 There is also a thread on this forum dedicated to drivers used in CIEMs/IEMs: http://www.head-fi.org/t/604851/chart-balanced-armature-based-in-ear-monitors-technical-characteristics


----------



## Shilohsjustice

piotrus-g said:


> Then make a simple copy of it. It's a triple driver 2-way. with equivalent of 2x CI-22955 and ED-29689




Thank you for the information!!!


----------



## MuZo2

> 2x CI-22955 and ED-29689


 
 Is it bass monster? 2xCI


----------



## Silverprout

muzo2 said:


> Is it bass monster? 2xCI


 
  
 CI-22955 is 128dB and the ED-29689 is 104dB.
 With this configuration you must expect +12dB bass boost (the shape depends of the serial resistor) and a 12-14dB 7-8K treble boost.
 Extreme big bloated bass, recessed mids and a luminous peak in the highs, no treble extension at all.


----------



## tranhieu

silverprout said:


> CI-22955 is 128dB and the ED-29689 is 104dB.
> With this configuration you must expect +12dB bass boost (the shape depends of the serial resistor) and a 12-14dB 7-8K treble boost.
> Extreme big bloated bass, recessed mids and a luminous peak in the highs, no treble extension at all.


 
 I think it's +6dB SPL bass boost (twice louder) assuming the ED is filtered well above the bass region. It's do-able if implemented well enough. You can even get good sound out of this config without a low pass xo.


----------



## Silverprout

tranhieu said:


> I think it's +6dB SPL bass boost (twice louder) assuming the ED is filtered well above the bass region. It's do-able if implemented well enough. You can even get good sound out of this config without a low pass xo.


 
  
128-104=24
  
 ...sorry the CI is 125dB
  
 125-104=21dB of bass bump (without damping)


----------



## tranhieu

silverprout said:


> 128-104=24
> 
> ...sorry the CI is 125dB
> 
> 125-104=21dB of bass bump (without damping)


 
 Ah I see we're not on the same page here. I was talking about the addition SPL in the bass region when 2 CI added (in phase) together compared to the single unit. 
  
 The 125dB you quoted is actually of the midrange though.


----------



## Silverprout

tranhieu said:


> Ah I see we're not on the same page here. I was talking about the addition SPL in the bass region when 2 CI added (in phase) together compared to the single unit.
> 
> The 125dB you quoted is actually of the midrange though.


 
  
  
  
 21 dB is for one CI... imagine two... midrange is 128.
  
  
 Knowles Design Guide
  
 http://www.mouser.com/pdfdocs/Knowles-Acoustic-Interface-Design-Guide.pdf


----------



## piotrus-g

silverprout said:


> ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 And you are probably also quoting BTE vs ITE  measurements. Anyways you can get completely flat bass of this design as well, it's only a matter of x-o. 
 Wire both in series together as a full range with 3300 damper tube 18mmx2mmID and you got yourself big dual woofer with high impedance that won't overcome ED, you can put ED on half-coil and 2,2 or 1uF cap 680 ohm damper tube 13x2mmID an you got easy setup with relatively big but natural sound.


----------



## Silverprout

piotrus-g said:


> And you are probably also quoting BTE vs ITE  measurements. Anyways you can get completely flat bass of this design as well, it's only a matter of x-o.
> Wire both in series together as a full range with 3300 damper tube 18mmx2mmID and you got yourself big dual woofer with high impedance that won't overcome ED, you can put ED on half-coil and 2,2 or 1uF cap 680 ohm damper tube 13x2mmID an you got easy setup with relatively big but natural sound.


 

 You are so right


----------



## Shilohsjustice

I spoke with Tim @ knowles, the GK-31732 uses a 4.7ohm resistor to the CI driver and a 22 mfd cap to the FK driver.


----------



## piotrus-g

shilohsjustice said:


> I spoke with Tim @ knowles, the GK-31732 uses a 4.7ohm resistor to the CI driver and a 22 mfd cap to the FK driver.


 
 you mean 2,2uF? 22mF would be pretty big cap


----------



## acain

Here is probably a stupid questions as I am learning and reading up on frequency response. When you use a first order 2 way crossover calculator. You input the low and high drivers impedances. Then it ask for the crossover frequency, how do you know or figure out what frequency to crossover?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

piotrus-g said:


> you mean 2,2uF? 22mF would be pretty big cap




Tim said 22 microfarad cap, could he have meant a .22uf


----------



## Daedalus1116

shilohsjustice said:


> Tim said 22 microfarad cap, could he have meant a .22uf




22 microfarad is 22uF, 2.2*10^(-5)

EDIT: Also, can you ask him what kind of capacitor Knowles uses, I hope that it is not tantulum.


----------



## Silverprout

daedalus1116 said:


> 22 microfarad is 22uF, 2.2*10^(-5)
> 
> EDIT: Also, can you ask him what kind of capacitor Knowles uses, I hope that it is not tantulum.


 

 Why? JH uses tantalum in the roxannes... they are good !


----------



## Daedalus1116

silverprout said:


> Why? JH uses tantalum in the roxannes... they are good !




I do not know myself, but I have read (emphasizes on read) that they are of inferior audio quality compared to any other type of capacitors(ceramic, film).


----------



## Silverprout

daedalus1116 said:


> I do not know myself, but I have read (emphasizes on read) that they are of inferior audio quality compared to any other type of capacitors(ceramic, film).


 

 Things have changed 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 http://www.avx.com/docs/techinfo/tantbench.pdf


----------



## Daedalus1116

silverprout said:


> Things have changed
> 
> http://www.avx.com/docs/techinfo/tantbench.pdf




That is great, so we should hope then that manufacturers use capacitor with low effective serial resistance.


----------



## piotrus-g

22uF is still pretty big, cutoff freq is around 500 Hz (this is estimation from my head, and from what I remember working with TWFK, I'm on my phone so I'm unable to calculate it easily)


----------



## Daedalus1116

piotrus-g said:


> 22uF is still pretty big, cutoff freq is around 500 Hz (this is estimation from my head, and from what I remember working with TWFK, I'm on my phone so I'm unable to calculate it easily)




Does it cutoff frequencies above or below 500Hz?

By the way, if you are on android, I recomment Calculator++ or CyanogenMod calculator.


----------



## Xymordos

22uf in series is high pass, so frequencies below 500Hz will be cut off.


----------



## piotrus-g

daedalus1116 said:


> Does it cutoff frequencies above or below 500Hz?
> 
> By the way, if you are on android, I recomment Calculator++ or CyanogenMod calculator.


 
 Thanks, but I still would need impedance measurement.
  
 Not to mention it's a PITA to do it on the phone.
  
 Better estimation with graph and proper calculator - ~250Hz cutoff


----------



## shakur1996

Dear all Home CIEMs makers
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I see that you are measuring FR of your CIEMs. I'm interested whether you also measure impulse response and do CSD plots? I did not see any post with impulse response and CSD plots. FR tell the story about the loundness level of particular Hz regions, but does not say whether a given CIEM is fast, slow, has long note sustainment etc.


----------



## Mython

shakur1996 said:


> Dear all Home CIEMs makers
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  
_ShhHHH!!!_
  
 Stop asking awkward questions!


----------



## MuZo2

shakur1996 said:


> Dear all Home CIEMs makers
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Neither do ciem mfg. Some even dont provide FR


----------



## shakur1996

Hmmm..I know one of the CIEM manufacturers which do those measurements. Whether this manufacturer shows those measurements it's a different story.
  
 So if while building a home made CIEM one does not do such measurements then how he/she can forsee the result of his build? If one wants to build natural sounding CIEM he/she cannot take drivers which have "analytical" type of ADSR.


----------



## Silverprout

shakur1996 said:


> Dear all Home CIEMs makers
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 We can try to do it... after getting rid of the "story about the loundness levels" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Optimisation is a long, long road !


----------



## shakur1996

Guys, please don't take my comments/questions as criticsm. I'm far from this. I admire what you do. I'm thinking of engaging into building my own CIEMs so I would like to understand the process and hopefully avoid any unnecessary errors.


----------



## Silverprout

shakur1996 said:


> Guys, please don't take my comments/questions as criticsm. I'm far from this. I admire what you do. I'm thinking of engaging into building my own CIEMs so I would like to understand the process and hopefully avoid any unnecessary errors.


 


 I had some trouble with the FR peaks... but my new RLC filters kills them all !
  
 My shells are full of CMS... but It works a lot better than i expected


----------



## piotrus-g

silverprout said:


> I had some trouble with the FR peaks... but my new RLC filters kills them all !


 
 But why?


----------



## Silverprout

piotrus-g said:


> But why?


 
  
 This is my technical choice... not a rule at all 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I don't use crossover.
  
 Only adjust elecrtrical damping with resistors, mecanical damping with tube dampers, and add 3 virtual drivers (RLC resonant dampers) to kill the biggest spikes.
 My CIEMS have 3 BA drivers and 3 Resonnant drivers... and a very, very flat response with a 10-12 dB compensation peak at 3K.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Knowles uses ceramic caps. 

Made some shells today, @acain using the glycerin was a success!!! Shell quality much better, I did not use any top coat at all just stage 2 UV color. 

I tried out at 2 CI setup, through in a resistor and a 1uf cap. Testing some different acoustic filters but surprised at how well they sound.


----------



## acain

shilohsjustice said:


> Knowles uses ceramic caps.
> 
> Made some shells today, @acain using the glycerin was a success!!! Shell quality much better, I did not use any top coat at all just stage 2 UV color.
> 
> I tried out at 2 CI setup, through in a resistor and a 1uf cap. Testing some different acoustic filters but surprised at how well they sound.


 
  
 They look nice and shinny the glycerin works great!!!  What kind of UV gel did you use?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

C





acain said:


> They look nice and shinny the glycerin works great!!!  What kind of UV gel did you use?




CVS had some uv polish 75% off, I snatched a few different colors.


----------



## acain

shilohsjustice said:


> C
> CVS had some uv polish 75% off, I snatched a few different colors.


 
 I hope its all of them that have the sale.


----------



## piotrus-g

shilohsjustice said:


> I tried out at 2 CI setup, through in a resistor and a 1uf cap. Testing some different acoustic filters but surprised at how well they sound.


 
 glad to hear it. With 1uF try full coil to lower crossover point. Half coil ED + 1uF is around 6 or 8kHz


----------



## shakur1996

What is half and full coil? Sorry for the nob question


----------



## piotrus-g

shakur1996 said:


> What is half and full coil? Sorry for the nob question


 
 Connecting driver to a center tap
 Take a look at ED here: http://www.knowles.com/eng/content/download/4788/66554/version/2/file/ED-29689-000.pdf when you connect driver by the center tap (half coil) you reduce impedance by half, which translates into few things - higher crossover point with the same cap value (2x higher) and higher SPL output. For ED and 2389 it also slightly changes the sound, making it more "metallic" on highs.


----------



## shakur1996

Again, sorry for nob question. Are you connecting both positive and negative wires to the center tap or you are connecting one wire to the positive or negative and the other one to the center tap?
  
 So, full coil is normal wiring ie one wire to positive and second to negative?


----------



## piotrus-g

shakur1996 said:


> Again, sorry for nob question. Are you connecting both positive and negative wires to the center tap or you are connecting one wire to the positive or negative and the other one to the center tap?
> 
> So, full coil is normal wiring ie one wire to positive and second to negative?


 
 one wire to center and one either to positive or negative (depends on your crossover design - electrical phase)


----------



## Daedalus1116

How much compensation in the region of 2KHz-3KHz is needed to provide a flat sound in that region when heard.


----------



## piotrus-g

daedalus1116 said:


> How much compensation in the region of 2KHz-3KHz is needed to provide a flat sound in that region when heard.


 

 12dB is considered flat/neutral


----------



## shakur1996

This 12 dB compensation boost at around 2.7kHz is relative to which frequency? 1kHz? 800Hz?


----------



## piotrus-g

shakur1996 said:


> This 12 dB compensation boost at around 2.7kHz is relative to which frequency? 1kHz? 800Hz?


 
 1kHz


----------



## Shilohsjustice

I finished up the white set today!! Switched from pins to MMCX connectors, 2 CI drivers, Cap/Res, brown acoustical filter. Pleased thus far going to test them out on stage this week. Handles iPod nice, warm lows and soft mids.


----------



## piotrus-g

Nice!
  
 Did you lacquer them or it's only polished?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

piotrus-g said:


> Nice!
> 
> Did you lacquer them or it's only polished?




These are only uv nail gel, I'm going to be trying out the Dreve just haven't had the funds yet. 

I tried out the glycerin cure on the whole shell after sealing, AWESOME process loving the results!!!


----------



## Xymordos

Wow! Looks like a very snug fit


----------



## acain

shilohsjustice said:


> I finished up the white set today!! Switched from pins to MMCX connectors, 2 CI drivers, Cap/Res, brown acoustical filter. Pleased thus far going to test them out on stage this week. Handles iPod nice, warm lows and soft mids.




Looks good play an Instrument or sing.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

I 





acain said:


> Looks good play an Instrument or sing.


am a guitar player.


----------



## Silverprout

shilohsjustice said:


> I
> am a guitar player.


 

 Acoustic, electric ?


----------



## MuZo2

@Shilohsjustice
 How did you manage to make equal thickness shells ?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

silverprout said:


> Acoustic, electric ?


 

 I play both, but mostly electric!


----------



## Silverprout

shilohsjustice said:


> I play both, but mostly electric!


 

 What style ?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

muzo2 said:


> @Shilohsjustice
> How did you manage to make equal thickness shells ?


 

 My process and technique is relatively simple as are the tools I use. My method uses gelatin mold, nail uv light with a timer (Beeps at 30seconds and turns off at 1min)
  
 I chose the lamp I did because it uses LED lights and gives a uniform exposure across the plate. (I got it at CVS in a kit on sale for $38.00, I frequent Walgreens and CVS because the run sales on the three brands of UV Gel they carry instock. I purchased the white UV gel for like $3.26 bottle. opposed to $12)
  

  
  
 I turn the UV Lamp upside down when curing the shells in my gelatin mold. FOR ME THIS WORKS WELL - Acain noted that removing oxygen causes the entire shell to cure with no residue left on the shells, I FOUND THAT WHEN I CUT A SMALL PIECE OF WAX PAPER AND PLACE IT ON THE TOP WHERE I FILLED MY MOLD THEN PLACE A UV BLOCKER OVER THAT, MY SHELLS CURE EXTREMELY WELL AS NO OXYGEN GETS THROUGH. Most people struggle to get the rim area properly cured.
  
 So UV unit upside down, wax paper on top then something to block the top from curing, NOTE THE UV LAMP IS UPSIDE DOWN MEANING I AM CURING FROM THE BOTTOM UP.
 I put it in turn on and at 30 seconds just rotate, after a minute its good but I rotate again let is sit for anther 15-25 seconds.
  
 I pour out the excess and still in the gelatin mold I sit it upside down on wax paper to let it completely drain out. I then while my UV lamp is sitting the right way and my gelatin mold and shell are upside down I cure it one more time (I just put it back in there and let in sit for a minute, no turning or anything)
  
 JUST STARTED DOING THE FOLLOWING ON LAST FEW SHELLS -- I turn the gelatin mold and shell so the opening is up and I just filled to top with dawn dish soap, put back in under UV light and cured inside again, NO RESIDUE MADE FOR EASY COMPONENT INSTALL!!
  
 I remove from mold and completely submerge the shell into glycerin and put the cup, glycerin, and shell submerged back under the light. PERFECTLY CURED SHELL!!
  
 This is what works for me, it's perfectly uniform, perfect thickness, and works every time!!! My process is different than others and takes me about 10 - 15 minutes at most.
  
  
 I can post pics of my process the next time I make some shells which probably will be next week as I am off Monday and Tuesday if people are interested, just let me know!


----------



## MuZo2

Can you make some pictures of the mold next time. Also can you post the recipe for gelatin. I avoided gelatin because it shrinks a bit.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

muzo2 said:


> Can you make some pictures of the mold next time. Also can you post the recipe for gelatin. I avoided gelatin because it shrinks a bit


 
  
  
 I will post pics next time I make shells.
 The recipe for the gelatin I use is: 1 cup of water to 4 packets of gelatin (one small box) then 5 table spoons of glycerin (this helps give it strength).
  
 IMPORTANT - Use hot water to make you gelatin mold. If all the gelatin does not mix and clumps, pop in microwave for 10sec, do not let mixture boil. Do this until it completely desolves. LET SIT IN FRIDGE FOR A COUPLE HOURS before making your mold, again pop in microwave for 10 seconds at a time until everything in melted. I do all of this in a red Solo cup.
  
 I always make a new mold every time I make shells because the molds do shrivel after a while in the fridge.


----------



## Mython

I'm bending the rules, here, by double-posting, but I hope I'll be forgiven 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





:
  
  
  I was idly browsing the 1964Ears website this morning, and noticed _this curious remark_:
  
  


> The new V8 also features CenterDrive™, a more advanced balanced armature design where the “drive shaft” is attached to the center of the diaphragm. The result is a richer, deeper and more effortless bass reproduction.


 
  
  
 Any comments, anyone?


----------



## Silverprout

mython said:


> I'm bending the rules, here, by double-posting, but I hope I'll be forgiven
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Sorry i can't resist.
  
 Have you seen my VirtualDriver™ filtering technology ?
 Or my EXponential™ horn canal technology ?
 Or MY BIGcone™ dynamic driver technology ?


----------



## piotrus-g

mython said:


> I'm bending the rules, here, by double-posting, but I hope I'll be forgiven
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Well there are many speakers that uses this type of diaphragm design f.e. AcuPass's woofer driver has rod in center position (I opened broken 1723WT driver - that's how I know). I however cannot comment on effects of this design. From what I saw 1964 uses it in 3300 family and that's quite untypical I believe, but it is possible that standard 3800 family utilizes the same design.


----------



## acain

silverprout said:


> Sorry i can't resist.
> 
> Have you seen my VirtualDriver™ filtering technology ?
> Or my EXponential™ horn canal technology ?
> ...




Very professional looking i wish my ear canal was bigger i can barely fit 2 #16 thin tubing in the canal.


----------



## Silverprout

acain said:


> Very professional looking i wish my ear canal was bigger i can barely fit 2 #16 thin tubing in the canal.


 
  
 Thanks,
 I know i'm very lucky for that purpose my ears are big, i can fit Two CI 22955 directly in my canals...
 If your canals are tight... you can do an unique big canal.


----------



## MuZo2

silverprout said:


>


 
 How many drivers are there, I see one dynamic driver and 3BA?


----------



## acain

silverprout said:


> Thanks,
> 
> I know i'm very lucky for that purpose my ears are big, i can fit Two CI 22955 directly in my canals...
> If your canals are tight... you can do an unique big canal.




WOW I can get maybe 2 ED ba's in the canal.


----------



## Silverprout

muzo2 said:


> How many drivers are there, I see one dynamic driver and 3BA?


 
  
 One dynamic driver and 2BA...the treble BA is awesome, smaller than a filter, it gives an incredible treble resolution


----------



## Silverprout

acain said:


> WOW I can get maybe 2 ED ba's in the canal.


 

 Not bad


----------



## piotrus-g

silverprout said:


> One dynamic driver and 2BA...the treble BA is awesome, smaller than a filter, it gives an incredible treble resolution


 

 Yup, gotta love WBFK 30095


----------



## Silverprout

piotrus-g said:


> Yup, gotta love WBFK 30095


 

 Refined and class treble... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Perfect (for me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







)


----------



## acain

silverprout said:


> Sorry i can't resist.
> 
> Have you seen my VirtualDriver™ filtering technology ?
> Or my EXponential™ horn canal technology ?
> ...




Are the silver things showing with the numbers on them the capacitors?


----------



## Silverprout

acain said:


> Are the silver things showing with the numbers on them the capacitors?


 

 The silver things are BA, white are SMD inductors.
 Caps and resistors are in the shells, there is no place for another component... my big ears are just enough.


----------



## TheoS53

silverprout said:


> The silver things are BA, white are SMD inductors.
> Caps and resistors are in the shells, there is no place for another component... my big ears are just enough.


 
 those look fantastic. great job!

  a few questions for you "pros". I just recieved the BAs..holy crap they're tiny. 

 1. Which way should the damper be inserted into the tube? i.e, filter facing to the BA or to the tube exit?
 2. How did you guys go about soldering these little things? just tin the wire, then apply wire and soldering iron to the BA for a second or so?
 3. I'll be using some MMCX connectors, so how should I attach the wires to those, or does polarity not really matter, as long as they are both the same?
  
 thanks in advance


----------



## MuZo2

silverprout said:


> The silver things are BA, white are SMD inductors.
> Caps and resistors are in the shells, there is no place for another component... my big ears are just enough.


 

 C225D 3 inductors?


----------



## Silverprout

theos53 said:


> those look fantastic. great job!
> 
> a few questions for you "pros". I just recieved the BAs..holy crap they're tiny.
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks.
  
 1. Put the filter on a table, and try to put the tube on it, when inserted slide it into the tube with a 2mm spindle (bike spoke)
 The filter must face the tube exit.
  
 2. BA (and all SMD components) don't like heat at all !
 Just tin the wire, then apply wire and soldering iron to the BA... be very very fast, wait 15 sec between two headings and envelope the BA in a thermal pad for dissipation. Avoid heating it more than 1sec.
  
 3. + on the center pin - on the bore.


----------



## Silverprout

muzo2 said:


> C225D 3 inductors?


 

 Manufactured by Coilcraft.
  
 http://www.coilcraft.com/
  
 PS : This circuit is designed to kill my (measured) canal resonances, i'm not sure it will work for everyone !


----------



## grushaaa

Silverprout,
Tell me please how to solder so as not to damage the receivers, there's a very small contact. Perhaps manufacturers wil tell nuances.


----------



## Daedalus1116

>


 
  
 Tell me that you have bought them for $1,000++ and I would believe you without a doubt. 
 These looks amazing!


----------



## Silverprout

grushaaa said:


> Silverprout,
> Tell me please how to solder so as not to damage the receivers, there's a very small contact. Perhaps manufacturers wil tell nuances.


 
 Envelope the BA in a thermal pad for dissipation
 Put some solder on the wire (don't add any more on the receiver)
 Go very fast... put the wire on the receiver contact and touch it with the iron, do not panic... if you miss, wait and take one minute to calm down.
  

  
  
 http://www.sonion.com/Products/Transducers/~/media/Files/Products/Application%20Notes/Transducers/Soldering%20RoHS%20Compatible%20Transducers_AN_rev004.ashx


----------



## Silverprout

daedalus1116 said:


> Tell me that you have bought them for $1,000++ and I would believe you without a doubt.
> These looks amazing!


 

 Thanks !


----------



## TheoS53

silverprout said:


> Thanks.
> 
> 1. Put the filter on a table, and try to put the tube on it, when inserted slide it into the tube with a 2mm spindle (bike spoke)
> The filter must face the tube exit.
> ...


 
 thanks for the reply, really appreciate it. What do you mean by "enveloping" the BA?


----------



## wjp007

silverprout said:


> Manufactured by Coilcraft.
> 
> http://www.coilcraft.com/
> 
> PS : This circuit is designed to kill my (measured) canal resonances, i'm not sure it will work for everyone !




I thought you couldnt use inductors with CIEM given the close magnetic field of the drivers. Are these shielded?


----------



## Silverprout

theos53 said:


> thanks for the reply, really appreciate it. What do you mean by "enveloping" the BA?


 
 Pack it like a spring roll with that :


----------



## Silverprout

wjp007 said:


> I thought you couldnt use inductors with CIEM given the close magnetic field of the drivers. Are these shielded?


 

 Yes, they are shielded.


----------



## piotrus-g

Inductors do work with BA but not very effectively due to impedance spike in BA, not because of magnetic radiation.


----------



## Silverprout

piotrus-g said:


> Inductors do work with BA but not very effectively due to impedance spike in BA, not because of magnetic radiation.


 

 http://www.linkwitzlab.com/reference_earphones.htm
  
 Linkwitz is wrong ?
  
 No.


----------



## Mython

silverprout said:


> http://www.linkwitzlab.com/reference_earphones.htm


 
  
  
 Funny you should mention Linkwitz - I really wanna build a pair of his LX521 loudspeakers, but when one factors in the cost of 8 channels of (_decent_) amplification, it ain't cheap.


----------



## Silverprout

I have the Orions since 7 years...
 I use a 8 channels Hypex UCD 180 DIY AMP in a dual mono configuration.
 Fantastic, cheap but heavy (40Kgs without active XO)


----------



## Mython

Very nice!
  
 I know Hypex are decent modules, but I've been looking at Anthony Holton's amps... cost a few thousand bucks for 8 channels, done right, though 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
_(apologies to others for the brief OT digression)_


----------



## piotrus-g

silverprout said:


> http://www.linkwitzlab.com/reference_earphones.htm
> 
> Linkwitz is wrong ?
> 
> No.


 
 I won't question his work, I will just point you to the source of the information I'm using.
 http://www.sonion.com/~/media/Files/Academy/Academy_ProAudio__DocCode_304_V_001_Web.ashx Page 8 Electrical crossover network considerations point 4.


----------



## Silverprout

piotrus-g said:


> I won't question his work, I will just point you to the source of the information I'm using.
> http://www.sonion.com/~/media/Files/Academy/Academy_ProAudio__DocCode_304_V_001_Web.ashx Page 8 Electrical crossover network considerations point 4.


 

 You are right, i was thinking the same before reading the S.L. article.
 I'm not a physician and i don't want to read all the theory about the reactance. (my head is hot)
  
 The impedance is like that :
  
 Z=R+jLw
  
 With inductive reactance :
  

  
 You must take care of the reactance in your desing... and it is very, very complex (for me) but not for S.L. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 (my head is too hot)


----------



## Silverprout

mython said:


> Very nice!
> 
> I know Hypex are decent modules, but I've been looking at Anthony Holton's amps... cost a few thousand bucks for 8 channels, done right, though
> 
> ...


 

 Yes you can use class A, AB or D amplifiers !
 My first version was a Class AB mosfet AMP.
 Great and very cheap amp.


  
 Very cheap... drives the Orion without problem.
 http://jm.plantefeve.pagesperso-orange.fr/prat.html


----------



## grushaaa

Silverprout,
Thank you.
I listened to about 40 pairs of earphones including 25 with armature receivers and came to the conclusion that I prefer warm dark sound like shure 846, 535, sony xba, klipsch x10 etc and I don't like twfk driver. But I was struck by the sound klipsch x10 it has a very dence warm sound that is not peculiar to one driver, but had not enough midrange and high for me. I looked at the site sonion have an improved version of the driver with a large number of medium and high frequencies is sonion 26a007/9. I think because I do not have much experience of soldering and experience in the construction of crossovers then try to make custom iem from one driver.


----------



## Silverprout

grushaaa said:


> Silverprout,
> Thank you.
> I listened to about 40 pairs of earphones including 25 with armature receivers and came to the conclusion that I prefer warm dark sound like shure 846, 535, sony xba, klipsch x10 etc and I don't like twfk driver. But I was struck by the sound klipsch x10 it has a very dence warm sound that is not peculiar to one driver, but had not enough midrange and high for me. I looked at the site sonion have an improved version of the driver with a large number of medium and high frequencies is sonion 26a007/9. I think because I do not have much experience of soldering and experience in the construction of crossovers then try to make custom iem from one driver.


 
  
 If you can buy Sonion drivers you should try these ones.


----------



## MuZo2

Is it using crossover from AcuPass and only needs crossover for woofer?


----------



## Silverprout

muzo2 said:


> Is it using crossover from AcuPass and only needs crossover for woofer?


 

 Crossover is on the rear plate of the driver.


----------



## TheoS53

Gents, I'm almost ready to make my first IEMs, just waiting on the acoustic tubing to arrive.
  
 Made these today as a bit of a practice.


----------



## MuZo2

silverprout said:


> Crossover is on the rear plate of the driver.


 

 I mean the 4 driver 3way mentioned in document you attached.


----------



## acain

theos53 said:


> Gents, I'm almost ready to make my first IEMs, just waiting on the acoustic tubing to arrive.
> 
> Made these today as a bit of a practice.


 
Nice what did you make the shell out of and how many BA's?


----------



## Silverprout

muzo2 said:


> I mean the 4 driver 3way mentioned in document you attached.


----------



## TheoS53

acain said:


> Nice what did you make the shell out of and how many BA's?


 
 Shell is made with Dreve fotoplast, and then covered with nail gel, and then a final coat of Dreve lacquer. The pink one will have a GQ driver, and another set I'm making will have CI + TWFK


----------



## briancortez2112

theos53 said:


> Gents, I'm almost ready to make my first IEMs, just waiting on the acoustic tubing to arrive.
> 
> Made these today as a bit of a practice.
> 
> Looks good man, Keep it up!


----------



## briancortez2112

silverprout said:


> If you can buy Sonion drivers you should try these ones.


 
 That is some good info!


----------



## Xymordos

Some of those Sonion drivers have Knowles "equivalents" I believe


----------



## grushaaa

Silverprout,
Thanks, I've seen the brochures before and a lot of thought over them. I think the receiver 1723 acupass ill-suited for 3way crossover, because it uses sonion 1700 which is suitable weakly for midrange and also has a bad crossover frequency separation, i showed it in the picture. For midrange better to take sonion 2015 (analog ci22955) or 3300 (analog dtec)


----------



## Silverprout

grushaaa said:


> Silverprout,
> Thanks, I've seen the brochures before and a lot of thought over them. I think the receiver 1723 acupass ill-suited for 3way crossover, because it uses sonion 1700 which is suitable weakly for midrange and also has a bad crossover frequency separation, i showed it in the picture. For midrange better to take sonion 2015 (analog ci22955) or 3300 (analog dtec)


 

 IMHO, it's time to mail Sonion to see what they think about it !


----------



## briancortez2112

Can anyone tell me a good dynamic driver that I can put a low pass filter on to use as a bass driver in a hybrid iem??


----------



## acain

Luna shop has dynamic drivers on there site, shipping might take awhile from were its coming from.


----------



## Shawn71

acain said:


> Luna shop has dynamic drivers on there site, shipping might take awhile from were its coming from.




They ship from HK,just one place.....


----------



## Mython

Apologies if this has been posted before, but I didn't see it when I browsed all the thread images.
  
 Thanks to Cymbacavum.com for the link, to this image posted by user '_Hardcorist_', on the Player.ru forums


----------



## Mython

Personally, I'm not a fan of the man, but make of this what you will:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/746535/jerry-harvey-granted-dual-high-frequency-canalphone-patent


----------



## Quackers

What would be a nice complete setup around 200-250$ (not including the case and mold stuff)? There aren't many prices in this thread! 
 Also, a list of best up to date drivers would be great (I saw the google sheets one). A simple public google doc would be fine.
  
 Also, best website to get all this stuff to canada?


----------



## TheoS53

quackers said:


> What would be a nice complete setup around 200-250$ (not including the case and mold stuff)? There aren't many prices in this thread!
> Also, a list of best up to date drivers would be great (I saw the google sheets one). A simple public google doc would be fine.
> 
> Also, best website to get all this stuff to canada?


 
 I'm not sure about sending the stuff to Canada, but here are the costs that I had (excl shipping).

 Ballistics gel (1 lb) - $16 - Lightning Enterprises
 Fotoplast Acrylic - $60 - Lightning Enterprises
 Fotoplast laqour 3 - $30 - Lightning Enterprises
  
 Knowles GK driver x 2 - $90 - Mouser
 MMCX connector x 2 - $6 - Mouser
 Green damper x 2 - $4 - Mouser
 White damper x 2 - $4 - Mouser
 Yellow damper x 2 - $4 - Mouser
 Red damper x 2 - $4 - Mouser
 Grey damper x 2 - $4 - Mouser
 Orange damper x 2 - $4 - Mouser
  
 Shure replacement cable - $35 - Amazon
 33 AWG Litz wire - $19 - Amazon
 UV Nail Salon curing machine - $60 - Amazon
  
 #12 Acoustic tubing - $5 - Microsonic

 Total - $345


----------



## MuZo2

Made with Dreve UV, inside painted with nail uv gliter. Haven't done faceplates yet.


----------



## acain

Ni e they look great.


----------



## acain

I like how you recessed the nozzles. How was it using the Dreve? I am making a pair with dreve ut haven't had the time yet.


----------



## MuZo2

acain said:


> I like how you recessed the nozzles. How was it using the Dreve? I am making a pair with dreve ut haven't had the time yet.



Dreve needs long curing time,5 mins with led. That is for second curing inside glycol. They come out clear like glass.


----------



## wjp007

briancortez2112 said:


> Can anyone tell me a good dynamic driver that I can put a low pass filter on to use as a bass driver in a hybrid iem??




So I just made a hybrid using a Sony MH1C as the mid/woofer with a wbfk as the tweeter. I put a series 10uf ceramic cap and a 100 ohm series resistor with the wbfk. I didn't realize how much I missed the bass of a dynamic. I need to do some more experimenting on the tube design to improve the high frequency response.


----------



## briancortez2112

wjp007 said:


> So I just made a hybrid using a Sony MH1C as the mid/woofer with a wbfk as the tweeter. I put a series 10uf ceramic cap and a 100 ohm series resistor with the wbfk. I didn't realize how much I missed the bass of a dynamic. I need to do some more experimenting on the tube design to improve the high frequency response.


 
 Awesome, good to know, I do know the MH1 is pretty awesome so I can understand why you used that driver!


----------



## Mython

I noticed, the other day, that Lear's BD 4.2 is made with metal sound tubing (copper, apparently), akin to FitEar's TG! 334 (titanium)
  
 I now see that JHA's forthcoming 'Layla' has metal sound tubes, too, so this is evidently becoming a trend amongst commercial acrylic CIEM makers.
  
 I'm guessing this may be in an effort to improve treble extension and subjective treble detail/presence, but that's only a guess.
  
  
 Whatever the case, I wonder how long it will be before an intrepid soul in this thread ventures into metal sound tube territory?


----------



## piotrus-g

mython said:


> I noticed, the other day, that Lear's BD 4.2 is made with metal sound tubing (copper, apparently), akin to FitEar's TG! 334 (titanium)
> 
> I now see that JHA's forthcoming 'Layla' has metal sound tubes, too, so this is evidently becoming a trend amongst commercial acrylic CIEM makers.
> 
> ...


 
 FWIW BD4.2 has metal tubes for dynamic drivers and also because they are small diameter they also work as low pass filter, so they do not contribute to highs and in fact do the opposite.


----------



## Mython

Thanks for the clarification, Peter.
  
 I know you have experimented with using long tubes to modify the bass response in some of your designs (one of the first of which, I recall being that awesome UM Miracle remake you did)
  
  
 The past half hour, since I posted the above, I've revisited the Lear (*Universal) BD4.2 impressions thread, and noticed a link to Rin's blog, where he remarked:
  
 "...metallic bores have previously been implemented by Suyama of Japan, and such tubes tend to have lower resonance frequency compared to the ones made of materials with lower density. Moreover, they also yield stable high frequency response due to the tube's constant geometry. The same logic may apply here with BD4.2 as well."
  
  
 Both his viewpoint, and yours, are very informative, albeit in different ways, so thanks


----------



## piotrus-g

mython said:


> Thanks for the clarification, Peter.
> 
> I know you have experimented with using long tubes to modify the bass response in some of your designs (one of the first of which, I recall being that awesome UM Miracle remake you did)
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks for the link it seems like I was wrong:


> *ON SECOND THOUGHT #3:* As claimed by the manufacturer, all four bores are working independently covering their own frequency ranges. While upper metallic bores are dedicated to mid-range and treble, the bottom ones are woofers, working together to cover the frequency range below 400 Hz.


----------



## Mython

No worries - your comments were still interesting.
  
 It seems a bit counter-intuitive to me that a smaller diameter bore tubing should act as a low-pass - I would have anticipated it acting more as a high-pass, since LFs require greater airflow, so I learned something today!


----------



## tranhieu

The moment I saw the nozzle, I also found the Lear 4.2's usage of metallic tubes (copper? they don't look like aluminium or steel to me, much less titanium) is more of a marketing gimmick than something that actually works. Those tubes should be about 1.5mm in diameter or even smaller, which is more suited as a low pass filter.
  
 Same goes for the La*** and An***


----------



## piotrus-g

mython said:


> No worries - your comments were still interesting.
> 
> It seems a bit counter-intuitive to me that a smaller diameter bore tubing should act as a low-pass - I would have anticipated it acting more as a high-pass, since LFs require greater airflow, so I learned something today!


 
 Yup, smaller diameter works as LPF
  


tranhieu said:


> The moment I saw the nozzle, I also found the Lear 4.2's usage of metallic tubes (copper? they don't look like aluminium or steel to me, much less titanium) is more of a marketing gimmick than something that actually works. Those tubes should be about 1.5mm in diameter or even smaller, which is more suited as a low pass filter.
> 
> Same goes for the La*** and An***


 
 I like how you put *** in those names lol.


----------



## Xymordos

I used stainless steel tubes in my IEMs that I made, but the nozzle is always too small to put a very big metal tube in :\


----------



## Silverprout

Hello,
  
 It would be so much more interesting for the forum readers... to see (on graph) the influence of your discoveries IMHO.
  
 Here is my last desing... my first "accurate treble" IEM/CIEM/headphones


----------



## Mython

silverprout said:


> Hello,
> 
> It would be so much more interesting for the forum readers... to see (on graph) the influence of your discoveries


 
  
  
the influence of your discoveries  the influence of your _couplers_


----------



## wjp007

silverprout said:


> Hello,
> 
> It would be so much more interesting for the forum readers... to see (on graph) the influence of your discoveries IMHO.
> 
> Here is my last desing... my first "accurate treble" IEM/CIEM/headphones


looks good, can you provide the details of your design?


----------



## Silverprout

mython said:


> the influence of your discoveries  the influence of your _couplers_


 

 A standard 2cc coupler is so inexpensive and so easy to build... and accurate to 4K (IEC711 is 8K)... why, why and why 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Remember your basic tools !


----------



## Silverprout

wjp007 said:


> looks good, can you provide the details of your design?


 
  
 13mm dynamic driver, ED29689 and WBFK30095.
  
 Very, very complex crossover


----------



## Mython

silverprout said:


> A standard 2cc coupler is so inexpensive and so easy to build... and accurate to 4K (IEC711 is 8K)... why, why and why
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hey, I was only kidding! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
  
 ...but, even so, I reckon one should always trust subjective performance as much as measured performance, when appraising how well a piece of equipment reproduces audio. I think Nelson Pass (famous hi-fi amplifier designer) said something along these lines, too.
  
 P.S. _Merry Christmas_, everyone 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 .


----------



## Silverprout

mython said:


> Hey, I was only kidding!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  
  
 I have a stock of rare NOS mosfets power transistors.... to build the original pass amps.
  
 If someone needs it... for _Christmas !_


----------



## Mython

I can't find the quote that's somewhere in the dark recesses of my memory, but I did just find this one, which is, itself, moderately applicable,_ even to DIY CIEMs_





:
  
  
_"so-called “objectivists” ... have a fine appreciation for electronic theory and measurements. Their opposites would be the “subjectivists” who emphasize the listening experience... Accusations are occasionally made that objectivists can't hear, and conversely that subjectivists hear things that aren't there. This being the entertainment industry, I hope everyone is having a good time."_ - Nelson Pass


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Merry Christmas all! It's been a while since I posted but got some GK's I'll be shelling up this week!! 

I hope everyone has a great holiday and please build something epic and post pics!! I'm itching to hit the workshop but stuck watching Disney Frozen Park Christmas Spectacular with the kids... Lol... Santa did bring me some new tools and 30awg silver Teflon wire all the way from Australia, I'm going to try that in the next build. So far best sorce of tiny wire I've found is harvesting it from $1 ear phones from "family dollar" but this 30awg wire is so small and flexible.


----------



## Silverprout

mython said:


> I can't find the quote that's somewhere in the dark recesses of my memory, but I did just find this one, which is, itself, moderately applicable,_ even to DIY CIEMs_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 It's an abandoned project... i don't know what to do with the components.


----------



## Mython

silverprout said:


> It's an abandoned project... i don't know what to do with the components.


 
  
 If you post on http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/pass-labs/, I'm sure you'll find some takers.
  
  


shilohsjustice said:


> So far best source of tiny wire I've found is harvesting it from $1 ear phones from "family dollar"


 
  
 Great idea.


----------



## Silverprout

mython said:


> If you post on http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/pass-labs/, I'm sure you'll find some takers.
> 
> 
> 
> Great idea.


 
  
 Your are totally right... but i'm a sluggard


----------



## Mython

silverprout said:


> Your are totally right... but i'm a sluggard


 
  
 I'm also guilty of that - but hey, what are New Years Resolutions for?! (& don't say _'for failing_' !)


----------



## Silverprout

mython said:


> I'm also guilty of that - but hey, what are New Years Resolutions for?! (& don't say _'for failing_' !)


 

 Stop building CIEMS... my drawers are full of them.


----------



## Mython

silverprout said:


> Stop building CIEMS... my drawers are full of them.


 
  
  
 If I may take the liberty of getting philosophical for a brief moment, I would suggest to you that it does not matter that your drawers are already full of CIEMs - the thing that is relevant is that continuing to create more CIEMs allows you to express your creativity and thus 'call-forth' the creative life principle within you, and that's a very healthy thing to do.
  
  
 And you have my permission to use that excuse the next time your wife complains!


----------



## acain

I had a pair of Sony Bluetooth ear buds laying around that I didn't really use. So I made some shells out of UV nail acrylic, used a piece of brushed stainless steel for the faceplates. I painted them to look like pewter, so I tried to make it look like they were forged by hand they don't sound that bad considering its Bluetooth, they are the shell and faceplate are all coated with Dreve Fotoplast.


----------



## Furco

Is it unreasonable to think that if you had the same 2 drivers, with the same tube diameter and length, and the same filter that the frequency response of both would be identical?


----------



## acain

Very unreasonable just kidding maybe its bad quality control through the vendor.


----------



## piotrus-g

furco said:


> Is it unreasonable to think that if you had the same 2 drivers, with the same tube diameter and length, and the same filter that the frequency response of both would be identical?


 in most of the cases there will be no difference at all, drivers' quality control is very high at least with KA and Sonion


----------



## TheoS53

So, I've made my first set of customs. Pink, because its for the missus lol
  

  

  
Haven't seen anyone else do this, so I started it.

Bluetooth handsfree with an individual custom moulded acrylic ear tip.

The result, much better audio due to better isolation, and an incredibly comfortable and secure fit.


----------



## acain

theos53 said:


> So, I've made my first set of customs. Pink, because its for the missus lol
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Nice work you don't have to hide it if you like pink we are all friends here. On the page before this I put my Bluetooth Sony's in a custom it sounds great I took the driver out of the housing, and the control clips to your shirt to change the song and volume. My next project I am going to take a Bluetooth headset and take it apart and put the whole thing in a shell with the usb charging port mounted in the shell.


----------



## wjp007

I did this some time ago.  I took apart a plantronics backbeat GO and stuffed it inside the shell.  The backbeat go uses micro usb for charging.  I used a 3.5mm headphone jack instead (you can see that plugged into the side).  Worked well until the battery died on me.  Only lasted about 3 months with every day usage.  Unfortunately I couldn't find a replacement battery.


----------



## Furco

Can someone recommend a dynamic driver for a bass heavy IEM? I'd like to do some experimenting and I figure I'd ask instead of buying a pair of Metro.Fi 220 off eBay and cannibalizing them.


----------



## acain

furco said:


> Can someone recommend a dynamic driver for a bass heavy IEM? I'd like to do some experimenting and I figure I'd ask instead of buying a pair of Metro.Fi 220 off eBay and cannibalizing them.


 

 If your going to just experiment with them and probably destroy them use a pair of Apples ear buds.


----------



## MuZo2

brainwavz r1 which has separate driver for bass. You can find them for cheap when they are on sale.


----------



## Silverprout

acain said:


> If your going to just experiment with them and probably destroy them use a pair of Apples ear buds.


 
  
 JVC HAFX1X Xtreme Xplosives
  
 http://xtreme.jvc.com/ha-fr301.html


----------



## grushaaa

Hello guys! Someone watched magazines do-it-yourself custom iem special maniax and do-it-yourself custom iem special technics, what do you think whether the information that.


----------



## Furco

Bad week. One of the CIs I got didn't work, it just hissed with static. I burned up a WBFK trying to desolder fraying leads on it. And lastly, trying to test out different dampening materials, I accidently pushed a small piece of foam past the nozzle of a CI and lost it inside the damn driver. Now it only plays at a reduced volume. Not a good week for me. I did manage to finish a set of customs for my son. Well, almost finished as I need to put face plates on them. I'm laying of some carbon fiber which should be ready tomorrow. With a little luck, I'll have them all sealed up in a day or two. Pic will follow.

Happy New Year!


----------



## Furco

silverprout said:


> JVC HAFX1X Xtreme Xplosives
> 
> http://xtreme.jvc.com/ha-fr301.html




Thanks for the recommendation. While I did build a set of customs for my son using a RAB+GQ config, I don't think he'll appreciate the clarity of the sound versus the "lack" of bass from what he's used to. I'll try and pop those JVCs into some shells to see how he likes them.


----------



## MuZo2

Note: DD drivers are too hard to tune in custom shell.


----------



## Silverprout

muzo2 said:


> Note: DD drivers are too hard to tune in custom shell.


 

 You can copy my desing...


----------



## MuZo2

Can you please post your design.


----------



## MuZo2

grushaaa said:


> Hello guys! Someone watched magazines do-it-yourself custom iem special maniax and do-it-yourself custom iem special technics, what do you think whether the information that.


 
 It was in Japanese, is there English version?


----------



## Silverprout

muzo2 said:


> It was in Japanese, is there English version?


 

 It's in this thread.


----------



## Xymordos

I've always wondered about the marketing of those companies...
 Some claim that they use only acoustic crossovers so there will be no distortion from passive components.
 Others claim that complex passive crossovers are used to maximize performance of the driver in a specific frequency range.
  
 Which one is true?


----------



## Silverprout

xymordos said:


> I've always wondered about the marketing of those companies...
> Some claim that they use only acoustic crossovers so there will be no distortion from passive components.
> Others claim that complex passive crossovers are used to maximize performance of the driver in a specific frequency range.
> 
> Which one is true?


 
  
 POV and concepts and mental ...urbation, there are a lot of ways to do things right (or not).

 The best way to do something right (technically) is to use all the available solutions.


----------



## MuZo2

silverprout said:


> It's in this thread.


 

 You mean your design or Magazine ?


----------



## Silverprout

muzo2 said:


> You mean your design or Magazine ?


 

 About which magazine are you talking about please ?


----------



## tranhieu

xymordos said:


> I've always wondered about the marketing of those companies...
> Some claim that they use only acoustic crossovers so there will be no distortion from passive components.
> Others claim that complex passive crossovers are used to maximize performance of the driver in a specific frequency range.
> 
> Which one is true?


 
 If said electronic components are of high grade, distortion would be minimal. People should be worried more about phase shifting instead.
  
 Acoustical filters (dampers & tubing in CIEM's case) should only be used as low pass since they can effectively filter out details in the upper spectrum, whether that's a good thing or not depends on the design.


----------



## Silverprout

tranhieu said:


> If said electronic components are of high grade, distortion would be minimal. People should be worried more about phase shifting instead.
> 
> Acoustical filters (dampers & tubing in CIEM's case) should only be used as low pass since they can effectively filter out details in the upper spectrum, whether that's a good thing or not depends on the design.


 
  
 A BA is that (electrically):


----------



## MuZo2

tranhieu said:


> Acoustical filters (dampers & tubing in CIEM's case) should only be used as low pass since they can effectively filter out details in the upper spectrum, whether that's a good thing or not depends on the design.


 
 I think dampers are also needed to smooth out frequency response.


----------



## Silverprout

muzo2 said:


> I think dampers are also needed to smooth out frequency response.


 

 <1500 ohm smooth the spikes
 >1500 ohm smooth the FR
  
 Lenght of the tubes and position of the filters are highly critical.
  
 IMHO horn loaded multi drivers and multitubes are the best of all... and fun as hell to build


----------



## MuZo2

how did you design the acoustic horn ?


----------



## tranhieu

muzo2 said:


> I think dampers are also needed to smooth out frequency response.


 
  
 True, but you're losing out details in the treble region at the same time.


muzo2 said:


> how did you design the acoustic horn ?


 
 You can try making step horns by using various drill bits with different sizes.
  
 For better horns, try CNC lathes.


----------



## Silverprout

it's confidential...  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 sonion uses horns in 80% off their reference desings.
  
 My CIEMs uses stepped diameter horns (as sonion designs) of final diameter of Ø3mm on the treble driver and Ø2.5mm on the bass driver.


----------



## Silverprout

tranhieu said:


> For better horns, try CNC lathes.


 
  
 Ouch... 1.5mm inner diameter exponential profile...


----------



## MuZo2

Horn on bass driver?


----------



## Silverprout

Yes !
  
_"By gradually changing the diameter of a connecting tube, and hence its impedance, there is a more gradual transition from the high impedance receiver to the low impedance canal, and hence less power is reflected...Consequently, the response is less peaky, resulting in improved sound quality."_


----------



## Furco

Latest build. My logo is not as sharp as I would like but then again it's a completed project. I thought the polished 30/30 bullet shell for the splitter was a nice touch for a custom cable.


----------



## acain

furco said:


> Latest build. My logo is not as sharp as I would like but then again it's a completed project. I thought the polished 30/30 bullet shell for the splitter was a nice touch for a custom cable.


 
 Looks great real carbon fiber nice now you have to do a whole shell put of carbon fiber. What kind of acrylic did you use for the shell?


----------



## TheoS53

acain said:


> Looks great real carbon fiber nice now you have to do a whole shell put of carbon fiber. What kind of acrylic did you use for the shell?


 
 I could be wrong, but I don't think that is real carbon.


----------



## Furco

theos53 said:


> I could be wrong, but I don't think that is real carbon.




It's real carbon fiber I layed up a couple days ago using my vacuum press. And my logo is in 23k gold leaf. The shells are made of nail acrylic. 

One major issue I had was once I had the plates glued on, I applied more acrylic to the plates and the shells where the two meet. After curing and cleaning off the uncured resin, guess what happened? The acrylic got cloudy and dull. Far from the gloss I wanted. I can get it glossy but only if I do a second cure in glycerin. But I really didn't have a way to do that without trying to plug up every hole and praying that no glycerin seeped inside. Given all the recent diy tragedy I've been having, I decided to not do a second cure. I settled on putting a coat of regular nail polish (nitrocellulose) and let it dry for a few hours. Worked very well.

Nitrocellulose lacquer has been used on acoustic guitars since Martrin started making them so I guess it's skin safe once cured. Want to take a guess how I know this? Yep, I built an acoustic guitar that sounds like s Steinway piano. Problem is nitro can take weeks to fully cure but something tells me the additivitives in nail polish makes it cure quicker.



acain said:


> Looks great real carbon fiber nice now you have to do a whole shell put of carbon fiber. What kind of acrylic did you use for the shell?


----------



## TheoS53

furco said:


> It's real carbon fiber I layed up a couple days ago using my vacuum press. And my logo is in 23k gold leaf. The shells are made of nail acrylic.
> 
> One major issue I had was once I had the plates glued on, I applied more acrylic to the plates and the shells where the two meet. After curing and cleaning off the uncured resin, guess what happened? The acrylic got cloudy and dull. Far from the gloss I wanted. I can get it glossy but only if I do a second cure in glycerin. But I really didn't have a way to do that without trying to plug up every hole and praying that no glycerin seeped inside. Given all the recent diy tragedy I've been having, I decided to not do a second cure. I settled on putting a coat of regular nail polish (nitrocellulose) and let it dry for a few hours. Worked very well.
> 
> Nitrocellulose lacquer has been used on acoustic guitars since Martrin started making them so I guess it's skin safe once cured. Want to take a guess how I know this? Yep, I built an acoustic guitar that sounds like s Steinway piano. Problem is nitro can take weeks to fully cure but something tells me the additivitives in nail polish makes it cure quicker.


 
 I stand corrected. It just didn't seem to have that uniform, trippy 3D effect that carbon usually has..perhaps because yours is 2/2 twill


----------



## wjp007

My first attempt at a three way. CI/ED/WBFK. CI makes a huge improvement on bass. I still have trouble with fit. Mostly mine come out too large and end up hurting after a couple of hours. A made up a resin based copy of my earmold that I built up with layers of nail polish. Either they hurt, or they dont seal. I cant the perfect fit. Anybody have a good comparison of an original earmold and final CIM with good fit/seal. Thanks


----------



## Furco

Nice job. I'm wondering if you're IEMs aren't extending far enough in your ear canal which might be the cause of lack of seal?


----------



## Mython

furco said:


> I'm wondering if you're IEMs aren't extending far enough in your ear canal which might be the cause of lack of seal?


 
  
  
  
 I wholeheartedly agree.
  
 I posted something relevant, a while back, in this post:
  
http://www.head-fi.org/t/684787/noble-audio-the-wizard-returns/1530#post_10176492   (please CTRL-F to search the post for the word *'kick'* )
  
 It's important to get the CIEM to extend at least close enough to the second bend of the ear canal so that the tip of the CIEM does _not_ just taper without first having some kind of kick/lump/ridge to 'grip' and 'seal' the tip of the CIEM within the ear canal. The pics in the above post illustrate this.
  
 Your shells, wjp007, look much too smooth and aggressively-tapered in the ear canal section. Did you do DIY ear impressions..?
  
  
_Also see:  _http://www.head-fi.org/t/684787/noble-audio-the-wizard-returns/3990#post_10535447
  
 .


----------



## CMOS1138

wjp007 said:


> My first attempt at a three way. CI/ED/WBFK. CI makes a huge improvement on bass. I still have trouble with fit. Mostly mine come out too large and end up hurting after a couple of hours. A made up a resin based copy of my earmold that I built up with layers of nail polish. Either they hurt, or they dont seal. I cant the perfect fit. Anybody have a good comparison of an original earmold and final CIM with good fit/seal. Thanks


 
 You probably need new impressions. I had similar problems when I first started. You need to think about exactly what part is causing you pain, since everyone's ears are unique, ultimately only you will be able to determine how to solve the problem. When taking new impressions, make several sets. try taking the impressions with your mouth open to create a larger impression and with mouth closed for a smaller one. I have found that for me the best impressions result when I start with my mouth open but then close my mouth after about 30 seconds. 
  
 I do not agree with the idea that only a deep fit will give a proper seal as I have made sets for myself with very shallow canals that only go past the 1st bend and the fit and seal was perfect (this does have a big impact on the base reproduction and you may have to re-tune if you go for a shallow fit). For me, the key to a proper seal has been making the shell large enough at the 1st bend, you may need to experiment with building up or grinding down the shell directly in this area in order to get just the right fit aven after you have good new impressions. 
  
  Remember to be gentile with your ears when inserting hard objects like CIEMS, if you stress your ears out, you may need to give them a few days rest before trying again, otherwise, everything will be painful even if the fit is correct. 
  
 Good luck and keep working at it, you can do it if you think hard and are persistent.


----------



## Silverprout

cmos1138 said:


> You probably need new impressions.


 
  
 IMHO, you should go to the audiologist, and speak with him(her).


----------



## wjp007

I do have an impression that goes past the second bend. I think i need to try making another resin copy. The current one has too much build up and lost the detail of the second bend. Can anyone send me a picture of their earmold compared to the final IEM. Thanks for the tips.


----------



## Mython

wjp007 said:


> ...Can anyone send me a picture of their earmold compared to the final IEM.


 
  
  
 Can you clarify exactly what you mean?


----------



## wjp007

mython said:


> Can you clarify exactly what you mean?


 
 I just want to see a side by side of the ear impression compared to the final IEM from different views.  I'm curious to see how deep from the second bend and if there is any additional build up needed to improve seal.  
  
 Thanks


----------



## Mython

wjp007 said:


> I just want to see a side by side of the ear impression compared to the final IEM from different views.  I'm curious to see how deep from the second bend and if there is any additional build up needed to improve seal.
> 
> Thanks


 
  
  
 But, with the greatest of respect, you are the person best-placed to do a comparison, because _you_ have your original ear impressions...
  
 Other than the various images contained within the links I pasted earlier, there's not much anyone else can offer you that you cannot better establish for yourself, using your own ear impressions.
  
 I do want to help you, it's just that it's really in your hands.


----------



## TheoS53

wjp007 said:


> I do have an impression that goes past the second bend. I think i need to try making another resin copy. The current one has too much build up and lost the detail of the second bend. Can anyone send me a picture of their earmold compared to the final IEM. Thanks for the tips.


 
 I haven't had a single fitment issue, perhaps I just got lucky and did it right the first time. 

 When casting the acrylic shell, it will come out quite rough, so what I do is to use some 320 or 400 grit sandpaper and scuff the entire shell until I have a fairly smooth, but hazy finish. Then I either start painting it with nail acrylic, or 2 coats of clear lacquer. 

 What I have noticed it that you don't have to worry as much about the actual canal section. Of course, you want to keep it as similar to the original impression as possible, but more importantly is the section right before the canal, as that is where most of the seal occurs, and the ear is more forgiving in terms of comfort at that part.


----------



## wjp007

Thanks, do you coat your ear impressions in wax or build up the impression in any way before casting in the gel?
  
 Thanks


----------



## OctoArm

Hello, I have been lurking around this thread for a couple months now and finally decided to make some iems of my own.  I went with the knowles GK driver as it seemed simple to use and has pretty good sound based on information in the thread. 
  
 I finished one side of the iems today and found that it output some pretty noticeable static noise when i tested them out using both my phone and my computer, even when the volume was muted.  I thought it might just be a faulty driver so i tested the second one I bought without a shell and found it also output a similar static noise.  Does anyone have any ideas on how to fix this?  should I use a separate amp or something?  Could it be a faulty cable or poor soldering on my part?  Thanks


----------



## acain

octoarm said:


> Hello, I have been lurking around this thread for a couple months now and finally decided to make some iems of my own.  I went with the knowles GK driver as it seemed simple to use and has pretty good sound based on information in the thread.
> 
> I finished one side of the iems today and found that it output some pretty noticeable static noise when i tested them out using both my phone and my computer, even when the volume was muted.  I thought it might just be a faulty driver so i tested the second one I bought without a shell and found it also output a similar static noise.  Does anyone have any ideas on how to fix this?  should I use a separate amp or something?  Could it be a faulty cable or poor soldering on my part?  Thanks


 

 Does it happen all the time and or does it only happen when you move around. I don't think its the drivers what are the chances of getting 2 bad ones and Knowles is pretty good. It could also be the wiring in the 3.5 jack. Before I use any driver I test them just by connecting 2 wires by hand with a long sound tube to see if it works ok.


----------



## OctoArm

acain said:


> Does it happen all the time and or does it only happen when you move around. I don't think its the drivers what are the chances of getting 2 bad ones and Knowles is pretty good. It could also be the wiring in the 3.5 jack. Before I use any driver I test them just by connecting 2 wires by hand with a long sound tube to see if it works


 
  
 Its happening all the time regardless of if I'm moving or not.  I have tried a couple different cables and devices, and the noise still hasn't gone away, although it was quieter when using my computer.  I did test both beforehand, although not more than a few seconds each to make sure they were putting out sound, so I don't know if there was static beforehand or not.  Although static isn't really a good description, its more like quiet pink noise playing in the background.
  
 should i be doing something special when wiring the 3.5mm jack to prevent noise?


----------



## acain

3.5 jack is pretty straight forward just the 3 wires. Post some pictures of the soldering of the driver if you can or link them to dropbox.


----------



## CMOS1138

octoarm said:


> Hello, I have been lurking around this thread for a couple months now and finally decided to make some iems of my own.  I went with the knowles GK driver as it seemed simple to use and has pretty good sound based on information in the thread.
> 
> I finished one side of the iems today and found that it output some pretty noticeable static noise when i tested them out using both my phone and my computer, even when the volume was muted.  I thought it might just be a faulty driver so i tested the second one I bought without a shell and found it also output a similar static noise.  Does anyone have any ideas on how to fix this?  should I use a separate amp or something?  Could it be a faulty cable or poor soldering on my part?  Thanks


 
  
 In my experience, BA drivers are more susceptible to electronic noise than dynamic drivers. most likely, both your phone and your computer are the source of the problem and the GK is simply revealing it. The electronic noise will be less bothersome if you use dampers to smooth out the upper frequencies. 
  
 I recently changed phones from a motorola atrix to a samsung galaxy s5 and the samsung produces a lot more electronic noise than the motorola ever did, fortunately the noise is only strongly apparent when no sounds are playing, as soon as I start up a media player, even if the music is paused, the noise goes away.


----------



## OctoArm

cmos1138 said:


> In my experience, BA drivers are more susceptible to electronic noise than dynamic drivers. most likely, both your phone and your computer are the source of the problem and the GK is simply revealing it. The electronic noise will be less bothersome if you use dampers to smooth out the upper frequencies.
> 
> I recently changed phones from a motorola atrix to a samsung galaxy s5 and the samsung produces a lot more electronic noise than the motorola ever did, fortunately the noise is only strongly apparent when no sounds are playing, as soon as I start up a media player, even if the music is paused, the noise goes away.


 

 Any recommendations for the dampers to use and which speakers to use them on? I bought some white and grey ones with my drivers just in case i needed them.


----------



## CMOS1138

octoarm said:


> Any recommendations for the dampers to use and which speakers to use them on? I bought some white and grey ones with my drivers just in case i needed them.


 
 for my GK build I use a red damper on CI and no damper on TWFK, since you are needing to reduce the electronic noise, try both the gray and the white dampers (one at a time) on the TWFK and see if you like it.


----------



## Furco

octoarm said:


> Its happening all the time regardless of if I'm moving or not.  I have tried a couple different cables and devices, and the noise still hasn't gone away, although it was quieter when using my computer.  I did test both beforehand, although not more than a few seconds each to make sure they were putting out sound, so I don't know if there was static beforehand or not.  Although static isn't really a good description, its more like quiet pink noise playing in the background.
> 
> should i be doing something special when wiring the 3.5mm jack to prevent noise?




Are you using enameled wire? If so, your soldering may be to blame. Based on some recent experience I had, just because you get you're enameled wire ends "tinned" doesn't guarantee a very good conducting connection. 

Or.....

If you attached your tubes with superglue, there have been some reports of the cyanoacrylate vapour causing all sorts issues with drivers. 

Good Luck.


----------



## OctoArm

cmos1138 said:


> for my GK build I use a red damper on CI and no damper on TWFK, since you are needing to reduce the electronic noise, try both the gray and the white dampers (one at a time) on the TWFK and see if you like it.


 
 The gray helps quite a bit and I'm not able to hear the noise when something is playing anymore, only problem is I dropped one and cant find the dang thing.
  


furco said:


> Are you using enameled wire? If so, your soldering may be to blame. Based on some recent experience I had, just because you get you're enameled wire ends "tinned" doesn't guarantee a very good conducting connection.
> 
> Or.....
> 
> ...


 
 I am using enameled wire from a old pair of headphones i had, so i re-soldered and couldn't really tell the difference so I don't think its that, especially since both sides are producing a similar noise.  also I attached the tubes with uv gel so hopefully vapor isn't a problem
  
 Thanks for the help, I'll probably post some pictures in a few days when I finish up.


----------



## Xymordos

Even when volume is muted? Is your source alright? It might be just that the BA are more sensitive to noise. Or your home power source is badly wired? I have constant static issues with my speakers too, but when I unplug the laptop power source it goes away. My problem can't be heard using headphones though.


----------



## Furco

Okay masters of diy, here's a mystery I'd love to solve. When I check the frequency response on one side of my IEMs BEFORE I glue the faceplate on, my bass is good. As soon as I glue on the faceplate, I loose anywhere from 5 - 10dB in the bass frequencies. 

I've done this 3 times already, trying to fix this problem. I even held the faceplate in place and the FR was good. As soon as I glue it on, *poof* - poor bass. When I crowbar the faceplate off, the bass returns to normal.

I think I might know what the problem is but given that all my previous attempts failed to solve the issue, my confidence is in a shambles. 

Oh, and the other IEM is all sealed up and the bass is good. Go figure.....


----------



## Mython

Poor soundtube connection to the BA nozzle?


----------



## tranhieu

Yeah, the tube sealing might be bad. Are you using open vented drivers by some chance?


----------



## Furco

tranhieu said:


> Yeah, the tube sealing might be bad. Are you using open vented drivers by some chance?


 
 Yes, I actually am using two vented drivers.  I've got a RAB + GQ configuration.  The RAB has a pinhole covered by a cloth disk and the GQ has, I believe a WBFK sitting on top of an ED.  I'm going to glue the GQ to the bottom of the shell to make sure there is good clearance for the WBFK vent.  As for the RAB, it looks like there's plenty of space above it.  I have a sneaky suspicion I crowded that GQ vent when I glued on the faceplate.
  
 I'm not sure I'm following everyone's logic about the possibility of the tubes not having a good seal.  Wouldn't I see a bad frequency response with and without the faceplate on if that was the case?


----------



## Mython

furco said:


> I have a sneaky suspicion I crowded that GQ vent when I glued on the faceplate.


 
  
 Yes, that does seem the more likely explanation (I wasn't aware your BA was vented when I suggested the nozzle/tube seal)
  


furco said:


> I'm not sure I'm following everyone's logic about the possibility of the tubes not having a good seal.  Wouldn't I see a bad frequency response with and without the faceplate on if that was the case?


 
  
 Possibly, yes. I don't dispute your logic.
  
 My reasoning was quite off-the-cuff, when I suggested the nozzle/tube seal might be faulty, because the shell chamber is infinite when open, and (obviously!) becomes finite when you seal it. Thus, it is not beyond the realms of possibility, that if the BA was, perhaps, acoustically interacting with the shell chamber rather than through the plastic sound tube, then the variability in the chamber between it's infinite and sealed states, might exert some influence upon the FR of the BA.
  
  
 I think we can all see that a vented driver perhaps having it's vent(s) obscured to some degree, by the shell faceplate is a much more likely explanation.


----------



## CMOS1138

furco said:


> Yes, I actually am using two vented drivers.  I've got a RAB + GQ configuration.  The RAB has a pinhole covered by a cloth disk and the GQ has, I believe a WBFK sitting on top of an ED.  I'm going to glue the GQ to the bottom of the shell to make sure there is good clearance for the WBFK vent.  As for the RAB, it looks like there's plenty of space above it.  I have a sneaky suspicion I crowded that GQ vent when I glued on the faceplate.




It can't be the WBFK vent causing a lack of base. That is your tweeter and it is connected to a crossover so it won't be giving any base at all.

I assume that you are using RAB as your base driver for this build.

2 possible explanations, either the RAB vent is getting blocked as others have noted, or the acoustic tube is getting bent when you put the face plate on causing a blockage in the tube.


----------



## tranhieu

furco said:


> Yes, I actually am using two vented drivers.  I've got a RAB + GQ configuration.  The RAB has a pinhole covered by a cloth disk and the GQ has, I believe a WBFK sitting on top of an ED.  I'm going to glue the GQ to the bottom of the shell to make sure there is good clearance for the WBFK vent.  As for the RAB, it looks like there's plenty of space above it.  I have a sneaky suspicion I crowded that GQ vent when I glued on the faceplate.
> 
> I'm not sure I'm following everyone's logic about the possibility of the tubes not having a good seal.  Wouldn't I see a bad frequency response with and without the faceplate on if that was the case?


 
 Personally I don't sit well with the tube sealing being at fault either. It sounds more like you somehow covered the vents while gluing the faceplate.
  
 You can test this by actually covering the vents and check if the response is the same as when you have the faceplate on.


----------



## Xymordos

The seal between the tubing and the nozzle might be leaking.


----------



## Breezy

Sorry for what are probably noob questions but I'm trying to make a simple one-driver to try out.

I have a decent understanding of molding and creating a shell.

I have an idea of what driver I should use and I know I'm supposed to attach an acoustic tube to it and put a filter in it. That's simple enough, can someone explain (with pictures preferably) how to do the rest and what materials I might need? The cable part has me lost. Most people are going with multiple drivers so I'm a little confused as to what I need.

Unless there's already a very thorough guide/tutorial I haven't perused, then it'd be nice if you lead me there.


----------



## MuZo2

There is a very detailed guide here written by one of members here. You will have to search it in this thread.


----------



## Furco

breezy said:


> Sorry for what are probably noob questions but I'm trying to make a simple one-driver to try out.
> 
> I have a decent understanding of molding and creating a shell.
> 
> ...




You can find the DIY guide in my signature. Well, it's one of the diy guides. It includes links to the DIY Cable forums here at Head-Fi as well.


----------



## Furco

xymordos said:


> The seal between the tubing and the nozzle might be leaking.




GIVE THE MAN A CIGAR!!!

That is exactly the issue I'm having. Evidently the noise inside the shell that is leaking through the nozzle is causing my lower frequencies to cancel out. 

I took these damn things apart so many times trying to solve this problem, it's ridiculous. This is definitely one to burn in the memory banks to check for on future builds. 

Thank you all for your suggestions. I heeded everyone trying to solve this problem. Once I firgure out how to plug up the leaks, I'll post the before/after pics.


----------



## Mython

Well, glad you got it sorted...


----------



## Xymordos

Haha, glad you fixed it. The same thing happened to me before when I didn't seal the nozzle properly.


----------



## Furco

So for those of you interested, here's what the frequency response looked like after I sealed up my IEMs:
  

  
  
 A little explanation of the graph:
 *  The Green line was what I was expecting to see with an unfiltered RAB+GQ config.
 *  The Red is what I actually saw.  What - indeed!!!  Major drop in dB from 100 - 400Hz and a crazy shift of the lower mid-range.  Notice that the upper frequencies are more-or-less, unaffected.
 *  The Yellow line is what it looked like after I plugged up the leaky nozzle trying to diagnose the problem.  That looks MUCH better!!
 *  Teal and Violet are the Right and Left IEMs after adding the acoustic filters. 
  
 Now some pics:
  
 Here's a view of the two gaps, basically, a large one at 10 o'clock and another small one at 4 o'clock.
  

  
 A little bit better view of those gaps.

  
 I stuffed them with some dense foam and retested the frequency response.

  
  
 After validating that those gaps were what was causing me such hell, I had to seal them up.  For one of the IEMs I was able to stuff some extruded silicon into the acoustic tubes.  This was idea as nothing sticks to silicon so they'd be easy to remove after covering the nozzle with UV resin and curing.
  
  

  
 For the other IEM, I couldn't get the silicon into the nozzles, so I resorted to some other flexible tubing I had around. There's more than one way to skin this cat.
  

  
 Both worked really well to seal up those leaks.  Here the fixed nozzle.
  

  
  
 And the finished product complete with a custom made cable:
  

  
 Thanks again for everyone's input.  It was a team effort!!!


----------



## piotrus-g

cool! I'm not sure what your measuring equipment is, but frequency response looks pretty decent and it is probably around something I would foresee as an outcome from RAB GQ combo. I'd also suggest adding some smoothing 1/12octave is good, and also use sine sweep instead of noise. It should improve the look of the graph. I'm also not sure how accurately is calibrated your equipment but 50db level is quite low, and if you do actual measurement at that level you are getting a lot of noise from hardware, try doing graphs at around 90 or 100db.
  
 And yes, you have to seal tubings from the inside of the monitor!


----------



## acain

I found a place to do awesome art work for faceplates and it very cheap. The nail saloon my daughter goes to will do any air rushing or all by hand with acrylic nail paint then i will seal them with dreve. I will have to post pictures when get them done. The acrylic they use is also uv.


----------



## H20Fidelity

Wondering what you guys think would be a good DIY IEM filter. I have a pair of T-Peos H-300 and they're a tad bright at times, mostly over long sessions they become fatiguing, knocking some of the highs would help too. What could I use to place over the nozzle and calm them a little? Any thoughts?


----------



## Furco

h20fidelity said:


> Wondering what you guys think would be a good DIY IEM filter. I have a pair of T-Peos H-300 and they're a tad bright at times, mostly over long sessions they become fatiguing, knocking some of the highs would help too. What could I use to place over the nozzle and calm them a little? Any thoughts?




Wool is a good material to ball up and put into the tubes. I also had a lot of luck using various foam I saved from getting packages in the mail.



Here some testing I did with various materials. It shows how the FR behaved with various types i had on hand.



The red line is the Reference (no-filter) so you can see some of the foams were very good, in my opinion, at shaping the higher frequencies.


----------



## Furco

piotrus-g said:


> cool! I'm not sure what your measuring equipment is, but frequency response looks pretty decent and it is probably around something I would foresee as an outcome from RAB GQ combo. I'd also suggest adding some smoothing 1/12octave is good, and also use sine sweep instead of noise. It should improve the look of the graph. I'm also not sure how accurately is calibrated your equipment but 50db level is quite low, and if you do actual measurement at that level you are getting a lot of noise from hardware, try doing graphs at around 90 or 100db.
> 
> And yes, you have to seal tubings from the inside of the monitor!


 
  
 Agreed, 50dB is very low, too low to get something meaningful in terms of a FR chart.  I can definitely say that the numbers on the  y-axis are more of a reference than anything.  I'm doing my FR testing at around 85dB, for sure.
  
 For my Freq.Response Test Rig, here's my setup.  It's a little complicated but I didn't need to buy anything as I had all this stuff in-house from previous projects:
 Interface: PreSonus AudioBox 2x2 USB (http://www.presonus.com/products/AudioBox-USB) 
 Mic:  Electro-Voice Cardinal Condenser mic (http://www.electrovoice.com/product.php?id=89)
 Workstation: MacBook Pro  (OSX 10.9)  (http://apple.com)
 Software:  Electroacoustics Toolbox v3.5.2 (http://www.faberacoustical.com/products/electroacoustics_toolbox/)
 Test Tones:  I got all my test tones and pink and white noise, sine sweep sound clips from http://www.audiocheck.net/soundtestsaudiotesttones_index.php
  
 Here's a look at the mic setup.  It definitely doesn't looks like a Cardinal Condenser mic at all; more like a pipe bomb.  Anyway, the import thing here is that I've tried to isolate the mic as best as I could see fit.  I put it on a large block of lightweight foam to reduce low frequencies resonating when the mic is in contact with hard surfaces.
  

  
 The white disc with the hole are made from silicon and are interchangeable in the rig.  I've got a few discs I made based on the diameter of the tubes i'm trying to test.
  

  
 I've isolated the back of the pipe with a layer of medium foam.  There's about 2 inches of air between the foam and the back of the mic to further improve the isolation.

  
 If I take the silicon disc off the front of the rig, you can see that there is a 20mm hole to the mic. Why 20mm?  I wish I had some scientific explanation for it, but I don't.  It just so happens that this large dense black foam had a 20mm smoothed hole already in it, so I used it as-is. 

  
 Taking the foam block out of the front of the rig, you can see the entire grill of the mic and also get a sense for how thick the foam actually is (about 29mm or 1.5 inches).

  
  This mic fit perfectly inside the grey PVC tubing.
  

  
 Sealed up with some electrical tape.

  
 And here's one way I position an IEM for testing.  It works surprisingly  well.

  
 If people are interested, I'll describe how I use Electroacoustic Toolbox to do FR testing.  I did give ARTA a shot but need to get some more experience with it. It doesn't seem to allow me to do sine sweeps.


----------



## H20Fidelity

furco said:


> Wool is a good material to ball up and put into the tubes. I also had a lot of luck using various foam I saved from getting packages in the mail.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks very much this is excellent!


----------



## Silverprout

furco said:


>


 
 The internal volume of the IEC711 coupler is 1.26cm3.
 The gigantic internal volume of your coupler dont really mach the residual volume of a ear canal IMHO.


----------



## Furco

silverprout said:


> The internal volume of the IEC711 coupler is 1.26cm3.
> The gigantic internal volume of your coupler dont really mach the residual volume of a ear canal IMHO.




I absolutely agree. I'd be interested in testing out how reducing the volume impacts the FR. I'll brainstorm and figure out how to modify my test rig to post some comparisons.

Regardless, I think "something" is better than nothing in terms of getting some objective analysis of IEMs.


----------



## Silverprout

furco said:


> I absolutely agree. I'd be interested in testing out how reducing the volume impacts the FR. I'll brainstorm and figure out how to modify my test rig to post some comparisons.
> 
> Regardless, I think "something" is better than nothing in terms of getting some objective analysis of IEMs.


 

 This mic is factory calibrated and less than 50$
  
 http://www.daytonaudio.com/index.php/emm-6-electret-measurement-microphone.html
  
 http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-emm-6-electret-measurement-microphone--390-801


----------



## Furco

I've now listened to the GQ-30783 + RAB-32257 for about a week and have to say, it sounds really REALLY nice.  
  
 I had initially convinced myself that a DIY 3-driver IEM would probably have the sound quality of a pair of $20 - $30 ear buds but without the bass filling out the sound.  After experimenting with a 6-driver config for the better part of 2 months, my pride/ego convinced me that a DIY 3-driver would be good enough for my teenagers, but not for me.  
  
 I will humbly report that I couldn't have be more wrong.  Holy cow -- was I wrong!
  
 During the research and development, I was worried about a lack of bass I was hearing with just using the GQ, which is why I paired it with the RAB-32257.   I've been living with UE Metro.fi 200 (pre Logitech merger) for many years so not hearing that deep dark bass in the IEMs gave me pause.  I thought RAB-32257 had the strongest sub-bass response when compared with the other RAB configurations, but now that I've double-checked, it looks like the RAB-32033 would have been a better choice if bass was my concern.  Anyway, at $12/driver for the RAB, it made economic sense to pair this with the $37/driver GQ.   The result?  The bass -- it's totally there, and right at a level that gives some nice warmth to the music but not overly so.  This is probably the result of some excellent isolation I'm getting from properly fitting shells and of course, correctly sealing the acoustic tubing at the nozzle.  Funny story about the isolation of IEMs:  As I was writing this, wearing my IEMs, I got a tap on my shoulder from my youngest.  I was startled and pulled out one to say "Hi".  He smiled in amazement and said "Could you hear me at all?"  I smiled back and told him I couldn't hear anything except the music.  He said he'd been standing behind me for a minute or two calling for me louder and louder each time.   My FiiO X1 volume is currently at 35 and apparently I'm oblivious to the world around me at this level.   
  
 The details I'm now hearing are pretty magical as well.  The best way I can describe it is like this:  A long long time ago, when I got my first home theater surround sound system setup, I put in a DVD I was pretty familiar with "Saving Private Ryan".  While the sound was now amazing, there were parts of the movie where machine gun fire was occurring.  Without surround sound, you could hear the tinkling of the shells as they hit the ground, but with the surround sound playing, you could actually count the shells as they hit the ground. Listening to these IEMs reminds me of that day.  I feel like I know how many beans or bb's are in the percussion shakers and they rattle in the background of some songs.  I can hear the zipper-like sound of calloused fingers moving down the strings of the fret board in various acoustic songs that I couldn't hear before.   If there's one complaint, it's that when a low quality mp3 now queues up, it sounds muddy and makes me question if it's the mp3 or the IEMs.  I'll have to do a search on my mp3 library and replace those lower bit rate recordings.
  
 Overall, the sound of this config is pretty damn fine to my ears.
  
 For anyone who already has a GQ on-hand and looking to do some experimenting by adding the RAB,  the configuration I'm using is:
  
 GQ-30783   - 2.0mm x 19.5mm tubing with a Knowles Green filter (1500ohm) + additional acoustic material to refine the 2kHz - 3kHz frequency response and further mellow out semblance if you hear any.
 RAB-32257 - 2.0mm x 15.5mm tubing with lightweight acoustic material to refine the 2kHz - 3kHz FR.
  
 The good news, is that for those who like more treble, the nondescript extra acoustic material can be omitted.  And, this config requires no crossover, other than the one that's already build into the GQ, of course.
  
  
 Cheers


----------



## CMOS1138

I bet it sounds great Furco. I like GQ it is a useful combination that can be used in a variety of builds. RAB is a driver that also begs for more experimentation. I used RAB-32063 as a tweeter in my last build and couldn't be happier with the results, it isn't as airy sounding as WBFK but it also isn't harsh, just nice natural highs. Given that you are using green filters + an additional filter on GQ, and a light filter on RAB, I bet that a lot of your high end detail is coming from the RAB driver.
  
 I have another pair of RAB-32063 on hand that I was thinking of making a single driver stealth build with, making the entire shell fit inside the ear canal. Taking that idea even further, I would love to make a bluetooth version with no wire running between  the shells but I can't figure out how to get 2 bluetooth devices to work together in stereo.


----------



## CMOS1138

looks like someone beet me to the punch, https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ownphones/ownphones-the-worlds-first-custom-fit-3d-printed-e
  
 Now if only I can get ahold of those bluetooth controller boards.


----------



## wjp007

I've been wanting to make a silicone custom IEM for some time. I finally got around to it after some experimentation. I chose some two part food grade silicone from Smooth On. I plan to use them just a few minutes at a time until I verify I get no allergic reaction.


----------



## acain

wjp007 said:


> I've been wanting to make a silicone custom IEM for some time. I finally got around to it after some experimentation. I chose some two part food grade silicone from Smooth On. I plan to use them just a few minutes at a time until I verify I get no allergic reaction.




Nice to get rid of air bubbles degass the silicone first. If you don't have a degasser you can make one for REALLY cheap from an old air conditioner pump or freezer or refrigerator pump. You can find easy instructions on you tube or just google it. How do they sound.


----------



## Mython

wjp007 said:


> I chose some two part food grade silicone from Smooth On. I plan to use them just a few minutes at a time until I verify I get no allergic reaction.


 
  
  
 Have you experienced allergic reaction to silicone in the past?
  
 I experienced some irritation with a commercially-made silicone CIEM, which, over a couple of days, made them too uncomfortable to wear (ear canal was slightly inflamed and getting increasingly sore). I do absolutely fine with acrylic.
  
 In my case, I was experiencing other toxicity issues which I suspect was making my immune system more sensitive to the silicone.


----------



## wjp007

Not the silicone,but was more worried about other materials in the two part mix.


----------



## kaywee23

Hi its gonna be my first time trying to make a ciem, i've actually read through the whole thread but am more interested in making a silicone one... may i know if anyone has any idea about it thanks!


----------



## wjp007

acain said:


> Nice to get rid of air bubbles degass the silicone first. If you don't have a degasser you can make one for REALLY cheap from an old air conditioner pump or freezer or refrigerator pump. You can find easy instructions on you tube or just google it. How do they sound.



Thanks for the tip. I think I'll rip these apart and try making them again. Overall sound is similar to acrylic. Haven't been able to tell much difference, but I fing the isolation and fit much more comfortable.


----------



## acain

wjp007 said:


> Thanks for the tip. I think I'll rip these apart and try making them again. Overall sound is similar to acrylic. Haven't been able to tell much difference, but I fing the isolation and fit much more comfortable.




What drivers are you using?


----------



## wjp007

I've been using the guts from an apple ADDIEM.  This is some kind of modified knowles GQ driver and looks like a WBFK/ED combo.  This unit is great for silicone as I get a two way design with a single tube.  In my acrylic shells I have more space and can do a more traditional design with separate drivers.


----------



## wjp007

I just did this.  I used silicone from Smooth On.  I got a two part clear silicone kit.  For my mold, I follow the same process as an acrylic. I use krystaloid that I bought from lightning enterprises for my mold material.  I then make a hole in the mold where I expect to put my sound tube.  I insert my driver in the mold putting the sound tube through the hole I made.  Once I have my headphone wire and driver lined up properly, I pour in the silicone mixture in the mold and let it cure.  The hardest part is to get the driver lined up in the mold to make sure there is sufficient clearance on all sides.  The krystaloid works great as it's fairly slippery and doesn't stick to the silicone.


----------



## kaywee23

Would any kind of silicone be alright? Because I'm not sure if I am able to get smooth on silicone from where I'm at.


----------



## Mython

For anyone here who is interested in 3D-printing as a potential future DIY option, this may be of interest to you:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/578855/things-to-consider-before-getting-your-custom-iem-impressions-done-the-perfect-fit/60#post_11265443


----------



## MuZo2

3dprinting and DIY, not feasible. For earshells you need precision printers and only big labs can afford it,


----------



## acain

You can use a stereolithography 3D printer its very accurate and is not spool fed. It uses a UV light with uv liquid resin its the same way UE does it now.


----------



## MuZo2

^^
 For home use ? How much does it cost?


----------



## acain

It ranges you can diy at home and use a dlp light source from an old tv. There are alot of forums online.


----------



## Mython

muzo2 said:


> ^^
> For home use ? How much does it cost?


 
  
 Jude mentions the stereo lithography printer (@ UE) in the second video - approx $250,000
  
 But I was not aware that a standard 3D-printer is entirely unsuitable for _*non-commercial*_ CIEM printing purposes, _*if* one is willing to buff/polish them afterwards_ (whereas the expensive stereo lithography option yields very smooth finish straight out of the machine, with no polishing required)


----------



## acain

There is alot of open source platforms for diy the cost is about the same as extruded 3d printing. And you dont have to worry about a printing head and nozzles


----------



## ilikeiem

muzo2 said:


> ^^
> For home use ? How much does it cost?


 
 This one is Stereolithography High-Resolution 3D printer which is quite affordable $3299. 
  
 http://formlabs.com/en/products/form-1-plus/


----------



## MuZo2

Again the materials that are printed need to be medical grade.


----------



## acain

Just imagine the possibilities you could go into CAD and make flanges in the shell for quick connects for sound tubes, you could program it to make a housing for a dynamic driver right into the shell.


----------



## tranhieu

muzo2 said:


> Again the materials that are printed need to be medical grade.


 
 You can always lacquer them later.


----------



## MuZo2

Can you please suggest a lacquer.


----------



## RealSpark

I have been sliently reading this thread for quite some time. Learnt a lot from you guys. Really appreciated all the ideas you guys shared.
 Below are some of the iems I made from early 2014 till last week. These are the good ones, and there are also a lot of bad ones end up in the trash. But I enjoyed a lot of the process of making IEM.


----------



## tranhieu

muzo2 said:


> Can you please suggest a lacquer.


 
  
 For acrylic: 
  
 Dreve: NanoScreen Lacquer, Fotoplast Lacquer 3, Thermosoft Lacquer3
 Egger: LP/H Lacquer, Egger Sonopal Lacquer
  
 AFAIK lightningenterprise carries some of the Dreve, just shoot them an email. The rest can be obtained from any audiology clinic.


----------



## kaywee23

tranhieu said:


> For acrylic:
> 
> Dreve: NanoScreen Lacquer, Fotoplast Lacquer 3, Thermosoft Lacquer3
> Egger: LP/H Lacquer, Egger Sonopal Lacquer
> ...


May I know if there are silicone lacquer


----------



## acain

realspark said:


> I have been sliently reading this thread for quite some time. Learnt a lot from you guys. Really appreciated all the ideas you guys shared.
> Below are some of the iems I made from early 2014 till last week. These are the good ones, and there are also a lot of bad ones end up in the trash. But I enjoyed a lot of the process of making IEM.




Great job I like the universals! !!!


----------



## MuZo2

realspark said:


> I have been sliently reading this thread for quite some time. Learnt a lot from you guys. Really appreciated all the ideas you guys shared.
> Below are some of the iems I made from early 2014 till last week. These are the good ones, and there are also a lot of bad ones end up in the trash. But I enjoyed a lot of the process of making IEM.


 
 Saw them on other forum. Learnt a lot from you as you have very-well documented it.


----------



## ilikeiem

kaywee23 said:


> May I know if there are silicone lacquer


 
 Are you looking for something like this? http://www.pcwerthstore.co.uk/products/Dreve-Lacquer-B-for-Otopren-and-Biopor-soft-earmoulds.html


----------



## kaywee23

ilikeiem said:


> Are you looking for something like this? http://www.pcwerthstore.co.uk/products/Dreve-Lacquer-B-for-Otopren-and-Biopor-soft-earmoulds.html


Yep but I think they require someone from that industry to be able to buy it.....


----------



## kaywee23

[@]ilikeiem but it isn't open for the public to purchase though..... There seem to be a need to be in the industry in order to make a purchase


----------



## RealSpark

Egger is easier to buy. I use all egger material. Good quality.


----------



## RealSpark

muzo2 said:


> Saw them on other forum. Learnt a lot from you as you have very-well documented it.




Well, I started with others instructable as well.


----------



## RealSpark

acain said:


> Great job I like the universals! !!!




I had a chance to Reshell a pair of AAW reshelled Jh5. Then I made a mould out of their universal and now I can have many. I think they copied the UM universal as well.


----------



## acain

realspark said:


> I had a chance to Reshell a pair of AAW reshelled Jh5. Then I made a mould out of their universal and now I can have many. I think they copied the UM universal as well.




Great idea they all look good i like the Nike logo


----------



## Mython

acain said:


> Great idea they all look good i like the Nike logo


 
  
 It seems you're not the only one...


----------



## RealSpark

mython said:


> It seems you're not the only one...


 
  
 I was actually not my idea. Someone asked for it,,,


----------



## kaywee23

May I know if mmcx can be used in silicone shells? Would it be able to be stuck tightly and not fall out during cable removal?


----------



## CMOS1138

kaywee23 said:


> May I know if mmcx can be used in silicone shells? Would it be able to be stuck tightly and not fall out during cable removal?


 
 I think that would be challenging to say the least. The force needed to detach MMCX cables can be significant. Perhaps if you make the IEM with a solid core of some rigid material and imbed this in silicone you could anchor the MMCX connector that way. You can probably come up with a way to do it if you try enough times and spend a lot of time thinking and planning. You just have to decide if using the MMCX is worth the trouble.


----------



## RealSpark

Just got a new universal mould. Made two to tryout last few days.


----------



## RealSpark

acain said:


> Nice work what kind of acrylic do you use Dreve or Eggar? Nice work when you oppening up your lab.


 
 I use egger. I don't know where to buy Dreve. I've tried with them but it seems I need to provide some import documents... Too troublesome...Egger has a local reseller, so I just use egger.


----------



## Furco

Some experimenting with shells:

Blank slate - anything is possible with these. But definitely two thumbs-up! Trying to cure solid color opaque shells is a bit of a pain.



Black and Pearl swirling. Need to improve my technique as there are bubbles in the surface that I don't like.




Wonder flower graphic prototype. Definitely eye catching for the girls. It's a little dirty/gritty because the shell was just one of my throw-aways I was testing with but the concept of applying these kinds of graphic is something worth exploring more.



Still working on some cheap dynamic IEMs.

Happy building!


----------



## Furco

realspark said:


> I use egger. I don't know where to buy Dreve. I've tried with them but it seems I need to provide some import documents... Too troublesome...Egger has a local reseller, so I just use egger.




Guys, how bubble free is Egger? The bubbles in my clear and translucent shells, regardless how small, bugs the crap out of me. 

I know I can improve the clarity of them by curing them under 50 - 60psi but that means building a pressure pot rigged with UV light which I don't want to spend money on at the moment. 

BTW, I use thick acrylic nail gel and thin it with Gelos gel thinner. 

Thanks


----------



## TheoS53

realspark said:


> I use egger. I don't know where to buy Dreve. I've tried with them but it seems I need to provide some import documents... Too troublesome...Egger has a local reseller, so I just use egger.


 
 Where did you get Egger products from?
  
 Thanks in advance


----------



## acain

furco said:


> Some experimenting with shells:
> 
> Blank slate - anything is possible with these. But definitely two thumbs-up! Trying to cure solid color opaque shells is a bit of a pain.
> 
> ...


----------



## acain

Sorry damn phone messed that up. Try Hydrographics google or you tube it there are tons of patterns.


----------



## RealSpark

How did you make the Black and Pearl swirling? I like to try that as well.


----------



## piotrus-g

furco said:


> Wonder flower graphic prototype. Definitely eye catching for the girls. It's a little dirty/gritty because the shell was just one of my throw-aways I was testing with but the concept of applying these kinds of graphic is something worth exploring more.


 
 Holy C**p! man... this is outstanding. I think you just put some big guys to shame with this. This is simply jaw dropping design.


----------



## RealSpark

Same here! I'm so excited to see this! Where to buy the hydrographic material


----------



## piotrus-g

realspark said:


> Same here! I'm so excited to see this! Where to buy the hydrographic material


 
 Oh is this water slide graphic? I thought this was created with careful acrylic addition.


----------



## RealSpark

piotrus-g said:


> Oh is this water slide graphic? I thought this was created with careful acrylic addition.




Sorry I don't know. I just saw the other guy mentioned hydrography. I thought he did it this way. I'll let him answer...


----------



## Furco

realspark said:


> How did you make the Black and Pearl swirling? I like to try that as well.


 
  
 This is basically the method that I used but, like everything else, i'll take some practice.
  
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5HFfHoHrhY


----------



## acain

Hydrographic has been used for awhile in the custom car and gun industry its not hard to do at all. You can take your shells to a nail saloon and have them airbrush them.


----------



## RealSpark

furco said:


> This is basically the method that I used but, like everything else, i'll take some practice.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5HFfHoHrhY




Omg...........
Did you use nail polish or acrylic? I was thinking to use nail polish and coat a final layer of laquer to shine.


----------



## Furco

Use regular nail polish and then, once it all dried and cured, a coat or two of acrylic.  But one thing to keep in mind is that not all nail polishes will work well with this technique.  Some nail polishes dry too fast and as a result do not let you swirl.  Others give you some working time but generally speaking, I think you have about 3 - 5 minutes to make your design and then apply it to your surface.  I did try to mix in some nitrocellulose lacquer retarder into one of the bottles to increase my working time but it caused the paint drop to sink to the bottom of the cup.


----------



## acain

Does using different kinds of tubing from hearing aid tubing to like metal tubing actually change the sound. JH uses metal waive guides is this just for jacking the price up or is it real.


----------



## MuZo2

Dont know about JH, but different tubing does change sound.


----------



## acain

I always assumed that the material wouldnt really change the sound and only the diameter.


----------



## tranhieu

Different material with different sound absorption ratio will change the upper mids-treble signature dramatically.


----------



## acain

So if i went with maybe stainless tubing it might give it a brighter sound sig.


----------



## piotrus-g

furco said:


> Use regular nail polish and then, once it all dried and cured, a coat or two of acrylic.  But one thing to keep in mind is that not all nail polishes will work well with this technique.  Some nail polishes dry too fast and as a result do not let you swirl.  Others give you some working time but generally speaking, I think you have about 3 - 5 minutes to make your design and then apply it to your surface.  I did try to mix in some nitrocellulose lacquer retarder into one of the bottles to increase my working time but it caused the paint drop to sink to the bottom of the cup.


 

 While it's very interesting technique it's not possible to do this on water or glycerin with acrylic UV curring material (for IEMs) it's too thick flowing and it sinks down in watter and barely keeps on glycerin.
 Anyways you can do this on glass (like for faceplates making) but there's another problem - UV material mixes when you drop one on to another, but it's still possible to do.


----------



## piotrus-g

tranhieu said:


> Different material with different sound absorption ratio will change the upper mids-treble signature dramatically.


 

 Yes, that's true


----------



## Xymordos

So according to some article online, Teflon absorbs high frequency and is a good transmitter of low frequency?


----------



## RealSpark

Need some advice. What do you think about these three FR?
  
 The flat

  
 The bassy

  
 The curvy


----------



## acain

piotrus-g said:


> While it's very interesting technique it's not possible to do this on water or glycerin with acrylic UV curring material (for IEMs) it's too thick flowing and it sinks down in watter and barely keeps on glycerin.
> Anyways you can do this on glass (like for faceplates making) but there's another problem - UV material mixes when you drop one on to another, but it's still possible to do.


 

 Pre-make the shells then use acrylic nail paint in water then coat with uv acrylic.


----------



## RealSpark

acain said:


> Pre-make the shells then use acrylic nail paint in water then coat with uv acrylic.


 
 im gonna try this tomorrow night.


----------



## acain

realspark said:


> im gonna try this tomorrow night.




My daughter does this with her nails all the time. Some nail polishes are really thick and can be thinned out but not too thin so it still floats.


----------



## acain

If you have problems with certain nail paint adhering to the shell buy some clear nail primer and use a thin layer on the shell. Dont ask why i know alot about nail paint lol.


----------



## RealSpark

acain said:


> My daughter does this with her nails all the time. Some nail polishes are really thick and can be thinned out but not too thin so it still floats.


 
 How do you thin it? With nail polish remover?


----------



## DingoSmuggler

acain said:


> Dont ask why i know alot about nail paint lol.


 
 You've already said you have a daughter, its your job to know.
  
 That nail acrylic on water technique sounds pretty useful for other small 'painting' jobs too, I'll need to remember that one.


----------



## acain

realspark said:


> How do you thin it? With nail polish remover?




Yes nail polish remover too thin it thats how nail saloons do it. If you want to spend more money they sell nail thinner at CVS or any other drug stores.


----------



## RealSpark

acain said:


> Yes nail polish remover too thin it thats how nail saloons do it. If you want to spend more money they sell nail thinner at CVS or any other drug stores.


 
 Thanks for the advice. I will try to search my wife's stock.  She will love the new technic, im sure.


----------



## MuZo2

realspark said:


> The bassy


 
 These looks more neutral, others are bass light ?


----------



## RealSpark

muzo2 said:


> These looks more neutral, others are bass light ?


 
 Well to my taste, this one has a bit too much bass...


----------



## Silverprout

realspark said:


> Well to my taste, this one has a bit too much bass...


 

 Only a bit...


----------



## briancortez2112

Some I just recently finished!


----------



## CMOS1138

briancortez2112 said:


> Some I just recently finished!


 
  
 They look great Brian, Solid colors never turn out well for me. Are you painting the shells with an airbrush or spray paint? I dont see any brush strokes.


----------



## briancortez2112

cmos1138 said:


> They look great Brian, Solid colors never turn out well for me. Are you painting the shells with an airbrush or spray paint? I dont see any brush strokes.
> It's with a brush, you are right, it is really hard to get minimal strokes! Thanks by the way!


----------



## acain

Nice work what drivers did you use.


----------



## briancortez2112

Thanks, I used a Knowles GK with a CI , damper to taste on the CI.


----------



## Furco

Curiosity got the better of me and I picked up a calibrated mic to do freq. response testing. Test results will be coming that compare my old test rig to this one.

Clear tube at front of mic is 2cm^3.


----------



## Furco

Nice job, again, Brian.  Hey, what kind of cable is that?  Silver?


----------



## briancortez2112

Thanks Furco!
 The cable is a clear and silver Fiio cable I believe.


----------



## Mython

Don't know if this was posted, many months ago, but just in case it wasn't, it may be of casual interest to some of you:
  

  
  
 This industry discussion is also quite interesting, in places (see Jerry's remarks at the 24 minute mark, for example):
 
  
 Ironically, the discussion about digital ear-scanning (digital ear impressions) is outdated, just 3 (rather than 48) months later! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




:
  
http://www.head-fi.org/t/578855/things-to-consider-before-getting-your-custom-iem-impressions-done-the-perfect-fit/60#post_11265443
  
  
 .


----------



## acain

Great video with Ty


----------



## Xymordos

Made a new IEM with 10cm of 0.5mm silicon tube for the HODVTEC as low pass at ~100Hz. Thunderous bass...need to either find some resistors or close some ports. Playing around with the acoustic low pass is pretty interesting though!
  
 Also, HODVTEC has really weak bass slam o.O


----------



## Dan Jarros

Does anyone else think it's ironic that the audio quality on the video of guys talking about the audio quality of audio products is terrible?
  
 Dan Jarros


----------



## Mython

dan jarros said:


> Does anyone else think it's ironic that the audio quality on the video of guys talking about the audio quality of audio products is terrible?
> 
> Dan Jarros


 
  
 Yeah, I thought the same thing.
  
 Shame on them!


----------



## acain

Thought this was pretty cool bad quality video but its still cool.

balanced armature speaker: http://youtu.be/gr4eJtfbORQ


----------



## Dan Jarros

balanced armature speaker: http://youtu.be/gr4eJtfbORQ

   
 Yes. That's a great vid.


----------



## acain

Now who is the first person on here that's going to make there own balanced armature.


----------



## Mython

acain said:


> Now who is the first person on here that's going to make there own balanced armature.


 
  
  
  
 I predict their name will be Noel Knowle


----------



## piotrus-g

acain said:


> Now who is the first person on here that's going to make there own balanced armature.



You can be the first


----------



## Xymordos

The Knowles GR drivers and the SWFK both sound nice and smooth. I wonder why no manufacturers ever used GR in their designs?


----------



## Dan Jarros

The best thing to understand is that while we're all trying to be so modern with our designs here, IEMs with balanced armatures and "speakers" will be kickin' it old school until the next thing. And from what I can tell, that will be a long, long time.


----------



## CMOS1138

xymordos said:


> The Knowles GR drivers and the SWFK both sound nice and smooth. I wonder why no manufacturers ever used GR in their designs?


 
  
 what would you use GR for, mids? sounds like the beginnings of a 5 or 6 driver build depending on what you use for lows. I notice Mouse doesn't stock the GR, how did you get your hand on them?


----------



## Xymordos

I find GR pretty good for full range. It drops off before it reaches the low lows, which makes it suitable to use with a dedicated bass driver. I got them off Taobao, which sells all kinds of weird drivers that mouser often doesn't stock.


----------



## piotrus-g

@Furco I have to say big big BIG thank you for inspiration with hydrography.
  
 Unfortunately as a MOT I cannot post pictures of my builds, nonetheless, outcome surpassed my expectations.


----------



## MuZo2

Is it somewhere on net ?


----------



## piotrus-g

muzo2 said:


> Is it somewhere on net ?


 

 facebook


----------



## acain

I know have access to a 3d scanner at work. And i run a 5axis cnc mill, i am going to try to mill a shell out of solid titanium


----------



## Furco

acain said:


> I know have access to a 3d scanner at work. And i run a 5axis cnc mill, i am going to try to mill a shell out of solid titanium




Maybe start with some wood, or hell, a block of aluminum! Lol


----------



## Furco

piotrus-g said:


> @Furco
> I have to say big big BIG thank you for inspiration with hydrography.
> 
> Unfortunately as a MOT I cannot post pictures of my builds, nonetheless, outcome surpassed my expectations.




Glad I could open a new door for your creativity.

Stay tuned, I've been contemplating on a new idea for faceplates for about 3 weeks. If I can get it right, and that's a big IF, it should be stellar.


----------



## acain

piotrus-g said:


> facebook




Great work thats gorgeous.


----------



## MuZo2

acain said:


> I know have access to a 3d scanner at work. And i run a 5axis cnc mill, i am going to try to mill a shell out of solid titanium


 

 Nice, what scanner are you working with ? and which mill ?


----------



## acain

I plan on machining Delran plastic first.


----------



## acain

I am not sure of what kind of scanner but the programmer looked at my ear impressions and said it wouldnt be a problem. The mill is a Haas 5-axis.


----------



## MuZo2

If its 5-axis scanner you can scan in one setup. But also you will need CAD to prepare after scanning.
 What CAM are you going to use?


----------



## acain

Its called GibCam


----------



## MuZo2

Ah you will have to manually program all those toolpaths. Complex stuff lot of programming hours I guess.


----------



## piotrus-g

acain said:


> Great work thats gorgeous.


 
 Thank you!
  


acain said:


> I know have access to a 3d scanner at work. And i run a 5axis cnc mill, i am going to try to mill a shell out of solid titanium


 
 Nice!
 5axis CNC is great alternative for 3D printing, and accuracy/resolution on CNC is even better than 3D print.


----------



## acain

Gibcam is a CAD/CAM software that can generate programs right from 3D drawings. I am only going to rough it out in the mill then finish it in a Ram EDM machine so there is no tool marks and it will be easier to polish. If you never seen a Ram EDM you tube it there pretty cool. It uses a peice of carbon thats profiled and burns the material out in a dielectric bath.


----------



## MuZo2

Re-shelled my W3


----------



## Mython

piotrus-g said:


> facebook


 
  
 Do you mean the _'backstage'_ pic?


----------



## piotrus-g

mython said:


> Do you mean the _'backstage'_ pic?


 
 yes


----------



## Mython

Reminds me a little of butterfly wings (in a good way):


----------



## TheoS53

furco said:


> Curiosity got the better of me and I picked up a calibrated mic to do freq. response testing. Test results will be coming that compare my old test rig to this one.
> 
> Clear tube at front of mic is 2cm^3.


 
 I've built a testing rig as well..somewhat similar to your previous one. A major flaw I saw with your previous rig, and possibly this one as well, is that it is an absolute MUST to get a proper seal for the mic and headphone you are testing. I have noticed that if you don't have a proper seal, your HF readings will increase, and the LF readings will be greatly decreased. 

 I'm also using the Presonus Audiobox USB, and the Dayton Emm-6 mic. 

 At first I didn't have a proper seal, and the bass readings were really, really low...and the highs were a bit weird. 
  
 Not properly sealed:
  

 Sealed:

  
 I then compared my graph to those on the net for the same IEMs (FXZ200), and they're pretty much spot on


----------



## acain

I have seen people use play dough or silly putty to seal them against the mic.


----------



## Furco

On my first rig, I got a decent seal when I held the cIEM up against the silicon adapter like so:



I made sure that no openings were obvious between the nozzle and the hole.

With my new rig, I'm using a wad of 3M putty, which is basically the same as Blu Tack. I form the putty around the nozzle, squish it to ensure no leaks and then cover the entire opening but don't let the nozzle past the "reference plane". I definitly noticed the bass freqs getting attenuated if there's an unsealed gap between the putty and tube. 

But......

I can't get a good match of the freq response between my rig and what's been posted elsewhere for a pair of Metrofi 220's I have laying around. The high frequencies are not even close but things up to around 4kHz are close. So now I'm studying up on the IEM 60711 artificial ear. I did stumble across the the Zwislocki couplet which looks like it might be DIY-able. 

It maybe I'll just hire acain to make it for me considering he's got access to some sweet equipment.


----------



## wjp007

theos53 said:


> I've built a testing rig as well..somewhat similar to your previous one. A major flaw I saw with your previous rig, and possibly this one as well, is that it is an absolute MUST to get a proper seal for the mic and headphone you are testing. I have noticed that if you don't have a proper seal, your HF readings will increase, and the LF readings will be greatly decreased.
> 
> 
> I'm also using the Presonus Audiobox USB, and the Dayton Emm-6 mic.
> ...


Two words, poster tack. Works great.


----------



## TheoS53

furco said:


> On my first rig, I got a decent seal when I held the cIEM up against the silicon adapter like so:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 The problem with that rig in the pic is the foam. it will let in ambient noise, and let out some sound produced by the iem.

 Something else I have found (which I havent seen being mentioned elsewhere), is that when you are doing the loopback to calibrate your sound card, be sure to switch on phantom power. I have found that it does add a very tiny amount of "noise", which can affect the final readings


----------



## acain

Need to order drivers for a 3 way build any suggestions?


----------



## piotrus-g

acain said:


> Need to order drivers for a 3 way build any suggestions?


 

 CI+TWFK
  
 Sometime ago I said I would prepare "open source" design and I already have one but I have no time to create the post, so if you want it let me know I will give you directions.


----------



## acain

piotrus-g said:


> CI+TWFK
> 
> Sometime ago I said I would prepare "open source" design and I already have one but I have no time to create the post, so if you want it let me know I will give you directions.


 

 Thanks that would be great, I am good with building the shells I am terrible at crossovers. I used the CI+Ed for one build and it sounded pretty good the mids were too laid back for me.


----------



## acain

My review of the Beyerdynmic T51i made it too the front page wooohooo, and I am the worst writer ever.


----------



## CMOS1138

acain said:


> Thanks that would be great, I am good with building the shells I am terrible at crossovers. I used the CI+Ed for one build and it sounded pretty good the mids were too laid back for me.




If you want a mid forward design you should try out my most recent quad. It is a 3 way using mostly acoustic crossovers. 
high is RAB 
mid is DTEC
low is CI

You can find the details in some of my previous posts.

It is a very mid forward design that is perfect for Jaz or blues but not so great for rock.

I have been thinking of making another version of it by using WBFK instead of RAB and adding a 2nd CI.


----------



## piotrus-g

acain said:


> Thanks that would be great, I am good with building the shells I am terrible at crossovers. I used the CI+Ed for one build and it sounded pretty good the mids were too laid back for me.


 
 shot me an email to info(at)thecustomart.com I will send you hand-written scheme with details.


----------



## acain

piotrus-g said:


> shot me an email to info(at)thecustomart.com I will send you hand-written scheme with details.


 

 I will thanks for the help, congratulations on all your success with Custom Art hope to see nothing but growth for you.


----------



## Furco

cmos1138 said:


> If you want a mid forward design you should try out my most recent quad. It is a 3 way using mostly acoustic crossovers.
> high is RAB
> mid is DTEC
> low is CI
> ...


 
  
 I'm amazed at just how powerful the DTEC is.  During some of my many tests with understanding crossovers,, it was a practice in patients to try and figure out how to get a DTEC to play nice with other drivers.


----------



## FARfromHOME

acain said:


> Need to order drivers for a 3 way build any suggestions?



 


Use GK-31732


----------



## CMOS1138

furco said:


> I'm amazed at just how powerful the DTEC is.  During some of my many tests with understanding crossovers,, it was a practice in patients to try and figure out how to get a DTEC to play nice with other drivers.




That is true, this was definitely my most difficult build. I had serious frequency cancelation that only occurred on one side. I had to rebuild the right shell 3 times. I finally fixed it by wiring DTEC in reverse on that side but it was worth it to me because it is the perfect sound for the music I listen to the most.


----------



## piotrus-g

cmos1138 said:


> That is true, this was definitely my most difficult build. I had serious frequency cancelation that only occurred on one side. I had to rebuild the right shell 3 times. I finally fixed it by wiring DTEC in reverse on that side but it was worth it to me because it is the perfect sound for the music I listen to the most.


 
 BTW. I don't know if any of you guys tried it, but Sonion 3300 pairs perfectly with TWFK, much better than DTEC.
  
 As for GK driver it may work for single sound-tube design but for dual bore it can be much more improved in my opinion,


----------



## FARfromHOME

piotrus-g said:


> BTW. I don't know if any of you guys tried it, but Sonion 3300 pairs perfectly with TWFK, much better than DTEC.
> 
> As for GK driver it may work for single sound-tube design but for dual bore it can be much more improved in my opinion,


 

 What do you mean? GK is dual...
 http://www.knowles.com/eng/content/download/5920/103132/version/2/file/Receiver+Datasheet+GK-31732-000.pdf


----------



## briancortez2112

The Knowles GQ + CI sounds awesome, much better than just using a GK...


----------



## CMOS1138

piotrus-g said:


> BTW. I don't know if any of you guys tried it, but Sonion 3300 pairs perfectly with TWFK, much better than DTEC.
> 
> As for GK driver it may work for single sound-tube design but for dual bore it can be much more improved in my opinion,




If only I could get my hands on sonion drivers.


----------



## piotrus-g

cmos1138 said:


> If only I could get my hands on sonion drivers.


 
 taobao? Im pretty sure you'd be able to but something like drivers from shure or tf10 (both are based on 3300)
  
 http://www.lunashops.com/goods.php?id=4477 there. They are a bit old judging from the date on them, and you'd have to make sure that you get two the same drivers in pair, there'd be no use in one 3300 and 3700 because they are quite different drivers


farfromhome said:


> What do you mean? GK is dual...
> http://www.knowles.com/eng/content/download/5920/103132/version/2/file/Receiver+Datasheet+GK-31732-000.pdf


 
 I know, but it's not designed for dual soundbore configuration.


----------



## Furco

Okay, I know EVERYONE has been waiting for some more information and pics about frequency response test rigs...lol.  After all, how do you really know if you've gotten your left IEM and your right IEM in sync.  Turn back about a dozen pages and you'll see just how valuable a FR test rig can really be.  
  
 Anyway, while waiting for some of Chinese New Year to be celebrated and for oversea stores to open back up, I decided to ask the question of my current FR rig: "*Does it help anyone to post graphs of my configurations given my DIY test rig?*"  In other words, "*How accurate or rather, inaccurate is it?*" I've already posted pics of it, but for the sake of this write-up, let's call it "_Old Bird_".  
  
 Just to set the stage, when I first started this back in September, I didn't have any experiencing listing to music and being able to distinguish between variations in frequencies from one set of headphones to another.  Sure, I'd be able to tell that they "sound different", and I might put forward the opinion that the bass is muddy or the mids seem vailed but beyond that, I can't describe exactly what's different beyond some vague generalizations.  Do due to my lack of technical listening, I chose to build a FR test rig.
  
 For a DIY rig, Old Bird did exactly what I wanted it to do:
 a) First and foremost, it let me _*see*_ what my ears were hearing.  For example, what does a CI "look" like, in terms of a FR graph from my rig?  How about a DTEC, or a Sony XBA? Or even a pair of Metrofi 200's?  What makes a DTEC sounds so different from a WBFK?  
  
 b)  It It let me start to gain an objective understanding of the capabilities of different drives and answer questions about why a particular configuration was so much different than, for example, the Metrofi's  "Oh!  That curve at 4kHz is about 15db higher than on the Metrofi's; that must be why it sounds like the guy hitting the cow bell is smacking the crap out of it!"
  
 c) Let me explore passive crossover circuits, custom damper materials, various tube lengths/diameters and how they affected a driver or group of drivers in the real world instead of theoretically (e.g. on paper).  Absolutely priceless!
  
 d) It afforded me the ability to make sure my left earphone was identically configured to the right one and if it wasn't stop the build process and fix it.  But to be honest, this is a double edge sword.  For example, one one of my recent builds, when I saw that one ear's FR was different than the other, I wanted to punch a hole in a wall and scream.  Once my temper tantrum was over and I regained my composure by walking away from it for a few days, I got the problem fixed and now have a decent set of cIEMs.
  
  So back to my initial question, how useful is it for me to post FR graphs taken from _Old Bird_.  In order to answer this question, I did some research and found out that there are quite a few industry standards that are used.  I won't list them all but for the sake of my analysis, I compared Old Bird to the 2cc Coupler and to a Zwislocki coupler.
  
 The 2cc coupler is as basic as it gets.  Get a 1/2" condensor mic.  Pop some 1/2 i.d. tubing on it and then do some basic math to find how how much tubing you need exposed in front of the mic to give you 2cc's.  That answer is approximately: 15.75mm.
  

  
  
  The Zwislocki coupler is a bit more complicated than a length of tubing but I'm always up for a challenge.

  
 I spent the better part of the day blueprinting it over and over and working out the tooling procedure to make this a reality.  I don't have a mill or lathe otherwise, this probably would have been a lot easier to make. And also worth nothing, while I would normally follow a technical design such as this, word-for-word, I had to make some changes to my implementation.  While the chamber volumes in my coupler are accurate to the Zwislocki design, the bores and overall assembly are not.  
  
 Unfortunately, no blocks of aluminum or plastic in DIY bins but I do have some extremely hard wood:  Burmese Blackwood.  This wood is more than 2x harder than Hard Maple and almost 3x harder the Red Oak.  With a block squared off I got to work with the drilling and tapping:
  
 Takes threads well.
  

  
  
 And drilled holes shine like metal.
  

  
  
 Next, some custom 3/8" x 24tpi adjusters.  I broke my cheap-o dye holder in the process of making threads on this rod but I turned enough for my coupler:
  

  
  
 After assembly, it's looks reasonable good.  The Zwislocki coupler has 5 chambers.  One down the center of the block and 4 chambers perpendicular to the main chamber.  Each of the side chambers in my implementation is closed with 3/8" threaded plug covered with silicon tape to seal the chambers.  Each side chambers is connected to the main chamber through a 0.5mm hole.
  

  
 And here it is being used with a WBFK 
  

  
  
 So, does it work like I expected?  Somewhat.  
  
 Here's the money shot.  I wired up a WBFK because it has some nice high extension that would help assess the accuracy of the various couplers.  I played pink-noise@90spl through the driver.
  

  
 Results:
  
_*   Old Bird (purple) _is by far, the most inaccurate FR test rig in this whole round-up.  Bass is non-existent; High frequencies are significantly shifted to the right.  However, the magnitude of the high frequencies is fairly accurate.  Overlooking the individual frequencies and just focusing on the general shape of the purple curve, what does it tell you?  To put it another way, if I handed you a graph showing the purple curve and asked you to tell me what would this driver be good for, what would you say?  *TWEETER*!  Does WBFK = Tweeter?  I would say, "Absolutely".  So is Old Bird useless as a FR test rig?  I think it did what it was I asked it to and for that, I'm grateful.  But Old Bird has outlived it's usefulness and like the Do Do bird, is now gone (disassembled).
  
 *  2cc Coupler (green) is getting better in terms of accuracy.  It show's two peaks, which is a good thing, because the datasheet for the WBFK-30095 has a peak at 4kHz and another at 6.8kHz.  However, the peaks produced by the 2cc coupler were at 4.5kHz and 11kHz.  So there's a major shift of the 2nd peak.  Additionally, the magnitudes of these peaks are all wrong when compared to the SPL@1kHz. The 2cc coupler shows a +6db gain at 4.5kHz and a +10db gain at 11kHz.  The datasheet shows that the WBFK should have a +15db gain at 4kHz and a more modest +7db gain at 6.8kHz.  The mid range frequency response (150Hz - 2kHz) is questionable. It's showing a bloated low end that reduces by -10db by the time you get to 2kHz.  But again, if we overlook the individual frequencies and just focus on the general shape, it says "tweeter with some bass".  But because the 2cc Coupler also has some accuracy with regards to the placement of the 1st peak, you can now use that knowledge to improve your IEM configuration.  Because the 2cc couple is so basic but provides semi-accurate frequency response between 100Hz and maybe 6kHz(?), posting FR graphs that were produced using this coupler has merit.
  
 * Zwislocki Coupler, there were multiple curves that were gathered using this coupler:
    -  Red -  Flat response from 100Hz - 1kHz; though it's not deadpan flat, it is within +/-3db.  1st peak at 4.5kHz with +15db gain over 1kHz which is pretty damn close to the datasheet; 2nd peak is at 9.5kHz with a +10db gain.  Magnitude of the 2nd peak is pretty accurate however, the peak is shifted about 3kHz to the right.  Overall accuracy using this coupler has increased.  
  
   - Yellow - I wanted to see if I could detach the putty+WBFK from the Zwislocki coupler and try it again to see if I could get the same measurements as the Red.  In other words, how reproducible is the FR testing using the rig?  As you can see everything except the 2nd peak is spot on.  I pulled the putty+WBFK off the coupler numerous times and repositioned the driver in the putty in order to validate the reproducibility of the Zwislocki coupler.  Every single time resulted in the Yellow curve.  My theory is that when I captured the red curve, and took off the Zwislocki coupler to put on the 2cc coupler, the Z.coupler was changed, however slightly.  This is one of the problems with the Z.cople, it's highly sensitive to shock and vibration and taking it off the mic caused it to fall out of the calibration that resulted in the Red curve.  The bottom line is that there is high reproducibility when using this coupler, however, don't take it off the mic EVER!  Otherwise, it'll need to be re-calibrated, which can take a while.
  
   - Light Blue - I covered the vent of the WBFK to see how that would affect the response.  It shows slight attenuation (-2db?) between 7kHz - 9kHz which, I believe, is expected.  However, I would have thought there would have been more of an impact with covering up the vent.  There may be more of an impact and that this coupler cannot accurate capture the true effect of covering the vent.
  
 So what's the moral of this story?  
  
 If anything, getting ANY kind of frequency response test rig will improve your configurations for all the reasons I listed earlier.  However, if you're craving accuracy, then getting something above and beyond the 2cc coupler is going to be on your short list.  The 2cc coupler is by far, the most useful coupler that you could employ because it's dirt cheap and semi-accurate.  Buying/Building a Zwislock coupler isn't for the faint of heart and then there's the elephant in the room:  How do you calibrate it?  The easiest method that I'd suggest it to compare the curves that your couple produce for a known frequency response.  It's flawed logic since in order for you to calibrate your coupler, you need a published frequency response for a set of headphones you own that was produced using a Zwislocki coupler!  Your chances of finding a FR graph that fits the bill are probably slim to none.  Nevertheless, you need to start somewhere.  But wait, all is not lost.  The Zwislock coupler is an analog for the real ear, just like the IEC-711 (60711) coupler.  So if you find an FR graph that was produced by an IEC711, you can use it as a basis for calibrating your coupler since they should, theoretically, behave the same.
  
 Cheers!


----------



## piotrus-g

@Furco good job on coupler,
  
 You really shouldn't use noise to measure drivers use sine sweep instead. Especially you shouldn't use PINK noise for tweeter
 here's pink noise spectrum:
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pink_noise#mediaviewer/Fileink_noise_spectrum.svg


----------



## Furco

piotrus-g said:


> @Furco
> good job on coupler,
> 
> You really shouldn't use noise to measure drivers use sine sweep instead. Especially you shouldn't use PINK noise for tweeter
> ...




Hi Peter, I never realized pink noise drops 3db per octave! You've told me this a few times so I guess I better figure out how plot sine sweeps with the software I'm using. The curves I posted are from an FFT app and I don't think it plots sine sweeps since its a realtime analyzer. I do have an octave band analyzer that I've plotted sine sweeps with but when I compared the FFT plots to the octave band plots, they were fairly close. I'll do more testing.

Would using white noise with my FFT analyzer be any better?


----------



## piotrus-g

furco said:


> Hi Peter, I never realized pink noise drops 3db per octave! You've told me this a few times so I guess I better figure out how plot sine sweeps with the software I'm using. The curves I posted are from an FFT app and I don't think it plots sine sweeps since its a realtime analyzer. I do have an octave band analyzer that I've plotted sine sweeps with but when I compared the FFT plots to the octave band plots, they were fairly close. I'll do more testing.
> 
> Would using white noise with my FFT analyzer be any better?


 
 white noise would be better.
 If you use soundcard for measurements then it's only a matter of software to produce sine sweep, find a new soft that can do it an you're ready to go


----------



## CMOS1138

piotrus-g said:


> taobao? Im pretty sure you'd be able to but something like drivers from shure or tf10 (both are based on 3300)
> 
> http://www.lunashops.com/goods.php?id=4477 there. They are a bit old judging from the date on them, and you'd have to make sure that you get two the same drivers in pair, there'd be no use in one 3300 and 3700 because they are quite different drivers


 
  
 is 3300 better used for mids or for base?


----------



## Furco

piotrus-g said:


> BTW. I don't know if any of you guys tried it, but Sonion 3300 pairs perfectly with TWFK, much better than DTEC.
> 
> As for GK driver it may work for single sound-tube design but for dual bore it can be much more improved in my opinion,




Would to recommend the 3300+twfk over the CI+twfk?


----------



## Xymordos

Would like to know about the 3300 too. It seems most manufacturers like to use the 3300 over the DTEC. I'm looking for a good mids driver as well. I've been using the BK drivers for mids so far but would like to see if there are better ones.


----------



## RealSpark

I have tried quite a few 3 and 4 combinations.
  
 3 BA, TWFK + CI airy high, bright mid and strong low
 4 BA, TWFK + CI x 2 airy high, bright mid and strong low (Like this 2nd best)
 4 BA, TWFK + DTEC airy high, bright mid and tight low
 3 BA, ED + CI x 2: bright high, lay back mid, strong low. 
 4 BA, ED + DTEC + CI bright high, rich mid and strong low (Like this the best)
  
 Will try in future
 6 BA, TWFK x 2 + DTEC
 6 BA, TWFK x 2 + CI x 2
 Had some phase issue for 6 BA in the past. And boy, its tough to put all 6 drivers in my ear...


----------



## RealSpark

realspark said:


> I have tried quite a few 3 and 4 combinations.
> 
> 3 BA, TWFK + CI airy high, bright mid and strong low
> 4 BA, TWFK + CI x 2 airy high, bright mid and strong low (Like this 2nd best)
> ...


 
 Also there was a TWFK + Dynamic. That was quite a interesting combination as well. Used quite a lot when I go for jogging as it was a universal fit.


----------



## RealSpark

xymordos said:


> Would like to know about the 3300 too. It seems most manufacturers like to use the 3300 over the DTEC. I'm looking for a good mids driver as well. I've been using the BK drivers for mids so far but would like to see if there are better ones.


 
 everyone chip in and order a 100 pcs from Sonion...


----------



## Xymordos

realspark said:


> everyone chip in and order a 100 pcs from Sonion...


 
 I can get them from Taobao in single quantities  Just that I don't want to put them in a shell before finding out that the sound isn't good...I wonder which is better if I don't use TWFK though: DTEC or 3300.


----------



## RealSpark

xymordos said:


> I can get them from Taobao in single quantities  Just that I don't want to put them in a shell before finding out that the sound isn't good...I wonder which is better if I don't use TWFK though: DTEC or 3300.


 
 which DTEC did you use?  30008? 31116?


----------



## RealSpark

piotrus-g said:


> shot me an email to info(at)thecustomart.com I will send you hand-written scheme with details.


 
 do you mind to share with me as well? I'd love to try your "open source" design.


----------



## CMOS1138

realspark said:


> Will try in future
> 6 BA, TWFK x 2 + DTEC
> 6 BA, TWFK x 2 + CI x 2
> Had some phase issue for 6 BA in the past. And boy, its tough to put all 6 drivers in my ear...


 
  
 the 2 6 BA designs that have been knocking around my head are
  
 SWFK + DTEC + CIx2
 or
 SWFK + DTEC + HODVTEC.
  
 The things that have held me back from doing it so far are that I am not fully convinced that there is any benefit in a 6 BA design over a 3 or 4 BA design, and it will be an expensive build (to much to spend if there is not a substantial payoff in sound quality).


----------



## RealSpark

cmos1138 said:


> the 2 6 BA designs that have been knocking around my head are
> 
> SWFK + DTEC + CIx2
> or
> ...


 
 same here. I only tried a few times for 6 drivers. Maybe it's just my ear... On paper, 3 BA should covers all freq.


----------



## acain

JH and other companies use 12 drivers per side and a 4th order crossover. I can't imagine doing a build with 5 drivers, and fitting everything in the shell sound tubes take up a lot of space and then try to make it look presentable.


----------



## acain

One driver can sound good, look at Custom Arts music one there is a lot of great reviews on it.


----------



## Xymordos

realspark said:


> which DTEC did you use?  30008? 31116?


 
  
 I haven't used one yet. I've only been using the HODVTEC as a subwoofer. I also tried the HODVTEC as a mid range and it worked alright. the BK drivers seems to have thinner and more laid back mids. Not sure if I'm right.


----------



## RealSpark

acain said:


> JH and other companies use 12 drivers per side and a 4th order crossover. I can't imagine doing a build with 5 drivers, and fitting everything in the shell sound tubes take up a lot of space and then try to make it look presentable.


 
 I believe all must be quad-drivers-unit. JH has some special drivers. For example there was one tweeter looks like two TWFK stacked together with only 1 outlet. That small thing already consider as 4 drivers. So...another two DTEC liked driver stack will be quad mid and quad woofer. You will end up with 3 units with 12 drivers. It's still doable.


----------



## RealSpark

acain said:


> One driver can sound good, look at Custom Arts music one there is a lot of great reviews on it.


 
 agreed. but its quite difficult to have good bass and treble with 1 driver only. I've tried to mimic the ER4 but end up with not enough bass...


----------



## piotrus-g

cmos1138 said:


> is 3300 better used for mids or for base?


 
 Both is good, there are vented versions like 33AJ007i/9 which are worth considering if you want more lower extension
  


furco said:


> Would to recommend the 3300+twfk over the CI+twfk?


 
 Depends on what you want from sound, CI is good driver 3300 is quite different. CI is known to give you this "ramble" at lower end, it also has very thick midrange, 3300 is much more clear in both bass and mids, it's more precise.
  
 Basically 3300 and DTEC are pretty much the same in terms of frequency response but they sound a bit different with DTEC being a bit more heavy on the bass and dry sounding, and 3300 being smooth and lush with slightly less bass emphasis.


----------



## RealSpark

piotrus-g said:


> Both is good, there are vented versions like 33AJ007i/9 which are worth considering if you want more lower extension
> 
> Depends on what you want from sound, CI is good driver 3300 is quite different. CI is known to give you this "ramble" at lower end, it also has very thick midrange, 3300 is much more clear in both bass and mids, it's more precise.
> 
> Basically 3300 and DTEC are pretty much the same in terms of frequency response but they sound a bit different with DTEC being a bit more heavy on the bass and dry sounding, and 3300 being smooth and lush with slightly less bass emphasis.


 
 http://ozvuke.pro/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=4121
 This is a quite interesting design based on 33AJ007i/9. As it mentioned (series) I think 3300 will also work well with this design.


----------



## MuZo2

piotrus-g said:


> Basically 3300 and DTEC are pretty much the same in terms of frequency response but they sound a bit different with DTEC being a bit more heavy on the bass and dry sounding, and 3300 being smooth and lush with slightly less bass emphasis.


 
 Is 3300 + 2 twfk possible ? That would be be 6 drivers with 3 way crossover.


----------



## piotrus-g

muzo2 said:


> Is 3300 + 2 twfk possible ? That would be be 6 drivers with 3 way crossover.


 
 don't see problem with that


----------



## RealSpark

muzo2 said:


> Is 3300 + 2 twfk possible ? That would be be 6 drivers with 3 way crossover.


 
 Quite a few models are using this combination I think.


----------



## MuZo2

Can you name few.


----------



## Moz-Art

Hey, does anybody know a good calculator or tool to calculate the crossover so you know what capacitor or resistor to use for the frequentie?


----------



## Furco

moz-art said:


> Hey, does anybody know a good calculator or tool to calculate the crossover so you know what capacitor or resistor to use for the frequentie?




This one seems easy enough to follow:
http://sim.okawa-denshi.jp/en/Fkeisan.htm


----------



## Furco

muzo2 said:


> Is 3300 + 2 twfk possible ? That would be be 6 drivers with 3 way crossover.




John (aka The Wizard) over at Noble Audio built a 20 driver IEM. From what I can remember, it was partially a joke and partially a proof of concept to see if it could be done.


----------



## MuZo2

I didnt mean if its possible to put in shell, I was asking if they can be configured in 3way 2low/2mids/2highs


----------



## acain

You could but as many as the shells will allow, TWFK are hard enough to tune in just a 3 way. I couldn't imagine tuning a 5 driver.


----------



## Silverprout

furco said:


> So what's the moral of this story?
> 
> If anything, getting ANY kind of frequency response test rig will improve your configurations for all the reasons I listed earlier.  However, if you're craving accuracy, then getting something above and beyond the 2cc coupler is going to be on your short list.  The 2cc coupler is by far, the most useful coupler that you could employ because it's dirt cheap and semi-accurate.  Buying/Building a Zwislock coupler isn't for the faint of heart and then there's the elephant in the room:  How do you calibrate it?  The easiest method that I'd suggest it to compare the curves that your couple produce for a known frequency response.  It's flawed logic since in order for you to calibrate your coupler, you need a published frequency response for a set of headphones you own that was produced using a Zwislocki coupler!  Your chances of finding a FR graph that fits the bill are probably slim to none.  Nevertheless, you need to start somewhere.  But wait, all is not lost.  The Zwislock coupler is an analog for the real ear, just like the IEC-711 (60711) coupler.  So if you find an FR graph that was produced by an IEC711, you can use it as a basis for calibrating your coupler since they should, theoretically, behave the same.
> 
> Cheers!


 
 Awesome,
 You can also compare your couplers with the Knolwes IEC711 measurements
 There are some zoomable precise graphs in that catalog : http://www.mouser.com/pdfdocs/Knowles-Acoustic-Interface-Design-Guide.pdf


----------



## piotrus-g

silverprout said:


> Awesome,
> You can also compare your couplers with the Knolwes IEC711 measurements
> There are some zoomable precise graphs in that catalog : http://www.mouser.com/pdfdocs/Knowles-Acoustic-Interface-Design-Guide.pdf


 

 you cannot really use those graphs as reference unless you have identical coupler, they use bare drivers to measure with very specific tubing attached to coupler (not drivers)


----------



## Silverprout

piotrus-g said:


> you cannot really use those graphs as reference unless you have identical coupler, they use bare drivers to measure with very specific tubing attached to coupler (not drivers)


 

 It was my goal... to have the same coupler response as Knolwes.


----------



## Music818

piotrus-g said:


> white noise would be better.
> If you use soundcard for measurements then it's only a matter of software to produce sine sweep, find a new soft that can do it an you're ready to go


 
  
 May try the "ARTA", a low cost but good software for headphone measurement.


----------



## piotrus-g

silverprout said:


> It was my goal... to have the same coupler response as Knolwes.


 
 But that requires attachment to coupler that costs hundreds if not thousands of dollars, and this measurement cannot be easily copied to IEMs, so for DIYer there's no point in doing this


----------



## Silverprout

piotrus-g said:


> But that requires attachment to coupler that costs hundreds if not thousands of dollars, and this measurement cannot be easily copied to IEMs, so for DIYer there's no point in doing this


 

 DIY coupler reference tuning... if your coupler has the same FR of Knolwes with many armatures, you can't go wrong.


----------



## tranhieu

silverprout said:


> DIY coupler reference tuning... if your coupler has the same FR of Knolwes with many armatures, you can't go wrong.


 
 It doesn't mean much. FYI UM doesn't use standard equipments either.


----------



## Silverprout

tranhieu said:


> It doesn't mean much. FYI UM doesn't use standard equipments either.


 

 We all have our own recipes...
 Use the armatures provider graphs as reference seem... logical.
 I just here to help, only.


----------



## tranhieu

No... it's not like I'm trying to discourage you or anything. I also attempted the same thing and came to the conclusion that it wasn't worth all the effort unless your top goal is to understanding the mechanism of couplers.


----------



## Silverprout

tranhieu said:


> No... it's not like I'm trying to discourage you or anything. I also attempted the same thing and came to the conclusion that it wasn't worth all the effort unless your top goal is to understanding the mechanism of couplers.


 
 Interesting read !
 http://www.comsol.de/blogs/theory-thermoacoustics-acoustics-thermal-viscous-losses/


----------



## tsn141

To my approach;
 Measurement needed for detecting problems. Your coupler may differant than the original 711. If you can see diferance btw prototype 1 and prototype 2 healty, it is enough for development. You can use even your ears, best coupler IMO.


----------



## tranhieu

silverprout said:


> Interesting read !
> http://www.comsol.de/blogs/theory-thermoacoustics-acoustics-thermal-viscous-losses/


 
 Thanks! Very interesting indeed!


----------



## Silverprout

tsn141 said:


> To my approach;
> Measurement needed for detecting problems. Your coupler may differant than the original 711. If you can see diferance btw prototype 1 and prototype 2 healty, it is enough for development. You can use even your ears, best coupler IMO.


 
  
 The main problem with the brain is his permanent adaptation to his environment... our perception is in constant evolution.
  
*Yes*, for me too : couplers are just a tool of our quest of sound pleasures.
  
*AND* i don't care about a mathematical model of a standard ear canal (corresponding to no one IRL) that ignore all what happens after the tympan.


----------



## Mython

silverprout said:


> The main problem with the brain is his permanent adaptation to his environment... our perception is in constant evolution.
> 
> *Yes*, for me too : couplers are just a tool of our quest of sound pleasures.
> 
> *AND* i don't care about a mathematical model of a standard ear canal (corresponding to no one IRL) that ignore all what happens after the tympan.


 
  
  
 Yes, a coupler can't experience different moods/emotions/hormones/distraction/variations in attention/day-dreaming/pleasure/habituation, etc.
  
 Measuring equipment is all useless.
  
 Throw it all away


----------



## Silverprout

mython said:


> Yes, a coupler can't experience different moods/emotions/hormones/distraction/variations in attention/day-dreaming/pleasure/habituation, etc.
> 
> Measuring equipment is all useless.
> 
> Throw it all away


 

 It is just a ONE TOOL, you need thousands IRL.


----------



## Furco

music818 said:


> May try the "ARTA", a low cost but good software for headphone measurement.


 
 My FR testing rig is currently connected to my MacBook Pro and I don't want to switch it to a Windows based solution at the moment.  Anyone know of good OSX based FR testing software?


----------



## piotrus-g

furco said:


> My FR testing rig is currently connected to my MacBook Pro and I don't want to switch it to a Windows based solution at the moment.  Anyone know of good OSX based FR testing software?


 
 FuzzMeasure I'm not sure if it's available as free, though


----------



## Furco

tranhieu said:


> Thanks! Very interesting indeed!


 
  
  


silverprout said:


> Interesting read !
> http://www.comsol.de/blogs/theory-thermoacoustics-acoustics-thermal-viscous-losses/


 
  
  I won't pretend to understand everything that the article described but the merits of having some kind of objective testing of your driver configs is definitely something worth looking into.  Until of course, you're ears start to learn what the FR test rig is showing.  I bet some of you who have been doing this for many years can tell a lot about the FR of a set of IEMs and don't need to see a graph.  Other newbies, like myself, can accelerate our learning of this science by having a "second set of eyes",  if you will.
  
 But like many have already suggested:  If it sounds good, who cares what the graph looks like!
  
 I've spent many frustrated hours trying to find and download the ANSI S3.25 standard (Zwislocki Coupler) only to find that it costs $$$.  I did find the 1966 patent that was filed but it wasn't much help filling in the missing pieces for me.  I'm a little surprised that ANSI documents cost $$$.  I would have thought access would be free.   Stupid me to think anything was free. 
  
 I just ordered some aluminum round stock in an effort to make improvements over the wooden coupler I have just made.  It might be an exercise in futility but it feeds my DIY-soul while I wait for my next shipment of drivers to arrive.


----------



## CMOS1138

furco said:


> My FR testing rig is currently connected to my MacBook Pro and I don't want to switch it to a Windows based solution at the moment.  Anyone know of good OSX based FR testing software?


 
  
 found this on the ARTA site. 
  
 "*Notice for Linux and Mac OS X users*
 Arta can be used on computers with Linux and Mac OS X operating systems by using Windows emulator programs: Wine on Linux, and Crossover (version of Wine) on Mac.
 First install Windows emulator program, then install Arta software using regular ArtaSetupXXX.exe program."


----------



## Mython

cmos1138 said:


> found this on the ARTA site.
> 
> "*Notice for Linux and Mac OS X users*
> Arta can be used on computers with Linux and Mac OS X operating systems by using Windows emulator programs: Wine on Linux, and Crossover (version of Wine) on Mac.
> First install Windows emulator program, then install Arta software using regular ArtaSetupXXX.exe program."


 
  
  
 Are there any potential latency issues to be aware of, or is that irrelevant in this application?  ('application', in _both _senses of the word - i.e. 1) the software running under emulation environment, and 2) the BA measuring scenario)


----------



## CMOS1138

mython said:


> Are there any potential latency issues to be aware of, or is that irrelevant in this application?  ('application', in _both _senses of the word - i.e. 1) the software running under emulation environment, and 2) the BA measuring scenario)


 
  
 I honestly know nothing about the software, I was simply looking at its web page and noticed that bit of relevant information.


----------



## KeLLoGsX

I've been into making my own iem a couple of times before but then I run into problems and the projects has stopped. This time I first found Morazies excellent article on instructables.com and then I found this thread covering just about everything, thank you very much! It's a big thread, I read the first 80 pages before skipping to the end. 
  
 Now I'm ready... Already made my first set of solid clear acrylic earpieces. Not too bad but I wanted to correct them some and made another impression today which I'll use to make tlhe duplicating mold. For the impression I used 2-component dental putty, easy to mix and just press into the ear, let it set and take out and trim for perfect fit.
  
 Next up will be the duplicating mold...


----------



## Mython

_Just for casual interest:_
  
*tinyurl.com/ojrlmy4*


----------



## ilikeiem

mython said:


> _Just for casual interest:_
> 
> *tinyurl.com/ojrlmy4*


 
 Is that fromlabs form1 3d printer?


----------



## piotrus-g

ilikeiem said:


> Is that fromlabs form1 3d printer?


 
 no


----------



## acain

kellogsx said:


> I've been into making my own iem a couple of times before but then I run into problems and the projects has stopped. This time I first found Morazies excellent article on instructables.com and then I found this thread covering just about everything, thank you very much! It's a big thread, I read the first 80 pages before skipping to the end.
> 
> Now I'm ready... Already made my first set of solid clear acrylic earpieces. Not too bad but I wanted to correct them some and made another impression today which I'll use to make tlhe duplicating mold. For the impression I used 2-component dental putty, easy to mix and just press into the ear, let it set and take out and trim for perfect fit.
> 
> Next up will be the duplicating mold...


 

 Did you use ear dams so the putty wouldn't hit you ear drum? Post some pictures of your shells!!!


----------



## CMOS1138

kellogsx said:


> I read the first 80 pages before skipping to the end.


 
  
 Some of the best information is in the last 100 pages. You will probably save yourself a little frustration if you give it a read.
  
 I 2nd acain's reminder, please use an ear dam to protect your ear drum if you take any more self impressions in the future. 
  
 Welcome to the obsessive little DIY group


----------



## acain

Has anyone tried to use a balanced cable with there diy iem?


----------



## KeLLoGsX

> Did you use ear dams so the putty wouldn't hit you ear drum? Post some pictures of your shells!!!


 
 No, the putty is quite hard so you have to push to get it in properly, no damage...
  


> Some of the best information is in the last 100 pages. You will probably save yourself a little frustration if you give it a read.


 
 Oh, thanks. Will read up on it then, I know I will need more guidance when it comes to properly set the drivers with cables and soldering and stuff... 
  
  
 An update to the project: When I was going to lift the impressions from the siliconemold today it was stuck and the earcanal broke off, have to do it all over again with a better separator.


----------



## MuZo2

kellogsx said:


> I've been into making my own iem a couple of times before but then I run into problems and the projects has stopped. This time I first found Morazies excellent article on instructables.com and then I found this thread covering just about everything, thank you very much! It's a big thread, I read the first 80 pages before skipping to the end.
> 
> Now I'm ready... Already made my first set of solid clear acrylic earpieces. Not too bad but I wanted to correct them some and made another impression today which I'll use to make tlhe duplicating mold. For the impression I used 2-component dental putty, easy to mix and just press into the ear, let it set and take out and trim for perfect fit.
> 
> Next up will be the duplicating mold...


 
 Save your ears and hearing. Dont do impressions at home.


----------



## CMOS1138

kellogsx said:


> An update to the project: When I was going to lift the impressions from the siliconemold today it was stuck and the earcanal broke off, have to do it all over again with a better separator.


 
  
 What kind of material are you planing to use for the IEM shell? Most of us have been making them out of UV cure acrylic but since you are using an opaque molding material, you must have something else in mind?


----------



## KeLLoGsX

> What kind of material are you planing to use for the IEM shell? Most of us have been making them out of UV cure acrylic but since you are using an opaque molding material, you must have something else in mind?


 
  
 I'm using a clear cold curing acrylic from Dreve Dentamid, since I'm already a customer of them but I've been in contact with Dreve Otoplastik to see if I could get hold of some Fotoplast as a sample.
  
 When using the acrylic I'll be doing a solid piece which I then will have to drill out to make a shell, already done it once and it came out pretty good. But hopefully I'll get some Fotoplast instead and make some proper shells.


----------



## acain

If you are doing your own impressions and don't want to go to the Audiologist at least use a impression kit with all the right stuff and right ear impression material. A silicone mold is very hard if you use silicone you might need a release agent.


----------



## MuZo2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUfsv3MxMI0


----------



## Mython

muzo2 said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUfsv3MxMI0


 
  
 Nice visually-clear animation in that video, thanks.


----------



## KeLLoGsX

muzo2 said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUfsv3MxMI0


 
  
 Great video, I actually have that "gun" here at work


----------



## CMOS1138

kellogsx said:


> I'm using a clear cold curing acrylic from Dreve Dentamid, since I'm already a customer of them but I've been in contact with Dreve Otoplastik to see if I could get hold of some Fotoplast as a sample.
> 
> When using the acrylic I'll be doing a solid piece which I then will have to drill out to make a shell, already done it once and it came out pretty good. But hopefully I'll get some Fotoplast instead and make some proper shells.


 
  
 I have used dental acrylic successfully to make shells a few times. for me, it was a powder acrylic with liquid monomer. I was able to make the shell body hollow but still had to drill out the canal section. If you can find a way to make the body hollow it will save you the trouble of having to drill that section out and it will be more visually appealing.


----------



## ilikeiem

piotrus-g said:


> no


 
 what is it?


----------



## piotrus-g

ilikeiem said:


> what is it?


 

 I don't know probably something like Rapidshape or EnvisionTec.


----------



## KeLLoGsX

I poured the acrylic mix in the mold and put it in a pressure pot with hot water and filled it to 2,5 bars pressure, then let it stay for about 45 min. They came out a bit more rough on the surface than expected but the fit is still good. Now it's time for some trimming and polishing and to drill out the shell.
  

  
  
 Quote:


cmos1138 said:


> I have used dental acrylic successfully to make shells a few times. for me, it was a powder acrylic with liquid monomer. I was able to make the shell body hollow but still had to drill out the canal section. If you can find a way to make the body hollow it will save you the trouble of having to drill that section out and it will be more visually appealing.


 
 How did you manage to make it hollow from the start?


----------



## Xymordos

I just completed another universal - was pretty interesting to make. I used a GR31587 which I've never seen before. Luckily it seems to sound pretty good. 
  
 Drivers used: HODVTEC31618, BK26824, GR31587, SWFK31736
  
 I used a 1mm teflon tube each for the GR and SWFK, and merged into a 2.5mm diameter stainless steel tube. A 1mm teflon tube was used for the BK. I also used a 10cm long 0.5mm silicon tube for low pass filter on the HODVTEC, which resulted at a cutoff at around 100-200Hz. There was actually too much bass from the HODVTEC, so I added a resistor on it, which I just attached to the shell as a pot to turn the bass. The Estron wires were really really convenient to use - I do recommend them as the connecting wires for drivers.
  
 Thinking back, I might use a Sonion 3300 and 3800 instead of the BK and HODVTEC next time to change the sound a little. The mids are a little dry currently. I also need to improve the passive crossovers for the GR and SWFK.
  
  


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


----------



## MuZo2

Are those shells from taobao?


----------



## Xymordos

Yup, I don't like making shells, too annoying - getting them online is faster and their quality is really good too.


----------



## MuZo2

Where did you buy SWFK and  HODVTEC?


----------



## piotrus-g

xymordos said:


> I just completed another universal - was pretty interesting to make. I used a GR31587 which I've never seen before. Luckily it seems to sound pretty good.
> 
> Drivers used: HODVTEC31618, BK26824, GR31587, SWFK31736
> 
> ...


 
 7 driver universal... impressive. Generally good driver choice.


----------



## Xymordos

I got them off Mouser actually. They were very expensive but I can get them reimbursed.


----------



## Xymordos

Thanks! I actually really liked the GR for highs, but not sure if there would be enough extension if I didn't use the SWFK. The ~6kHz peak of SWFK is very difficult to deal with. Also the 10cm tube was very hard to fit into the shell 
  
 I would actually like to ask about which drivers were sub optimal in the config, and which I should improve on? I'd like to get a general driver config and then play around with XOs to improve sound.


----------



## piotrus-g

haha and I didn't want to say what you could change to avoid discouraging you.
  
 I meant to say I'd swich from SWFK to TWFK because of SWFK's 6kHz peak


----------



## MuZo2

But SWFK is marketed as pro-audio tweeter with better extension.


----------



## Xymordos

piotrus-g said:


> haha and I didn't want to say what you could change to avoid discouraging you.
> 
> I meant to say I'd swich from SWFK to TWFK because of SWFK's 6kHz peak


 
  
 Ooh interesting! Does the WBFK also have the same problem? I didn't choose the TWFK because the description mentioned about it being coupled with a low frequency FK, which I thought should work as a full range rather than a tweeter  Would the TWFK be loud enough for the response in the 10kHz+ regions? Thanks for your input, there's no discouraging at all


----------



## CMOS1138

kellogsx said:


> How did you manage to make it hollow from the start?


 
  
 I used a salt and pepper application. I used a small squeeze bottle of the acrylic powder and an eyedropper for the monomer liquid. blow a little powder onto the mold using the squeeze bottle and than apply a little monomer over the same spot, I would keep doing that all around the mold until I built up a thick enough wall to be rigid and strong. I stopped making shells that way because they ended up with very thick walls and not as much space left on the inside for drivers as I would like and because the monomer is none to good for your health and It was making me feel a bit ill.
  
 It looks like your shell is a bit rough around the edges. I recommend sanding that down until it is nice and smooth before putting it in your ear. I have scratched the inside if my ear before and it is not fun.


----------



## tsn141

kellogsx said:


> I'm using a clear cold curing acrylic from Dreve Dentamid, since I'm already a customer of them but I've been in contact with Dreve Otoplastik to see if I could get hold of some Fotoplast as a sample.
> 
> When using the acrylic I'll be doing a solid piece which I then will have to drill out to make a shell, already done it once and it came out pretty good. But hopefully I'll get some Fotoplast instead and make some proper shells.



 


If you use cold cure acrylic, you can do wait and turn down method for shells.There is blurry surface at inside of shell.

More explanation for method:
Heat the negative mold, then pour acrylic mixture(cold mixture is recommended) to negative. Wait until a rim begin at the border of mould, rim thickness means wall thickness of shell, then turn out the acrylic. Cold cure acrylic is using by westone as I know, it is very robust material. This info is expensive info for me, it costs to me about 3-4kg cold acrylic.


----------



## KeLLoGsX

tsn141 said:


> If you use cold cure acrylic, you can do wait and turn down method for shells.There is blurry surface at inside of shell.
> 
> More explanation for method:
> Heat the negative mold, then pour acrylic mixture(cold mixture is recommended) to negative. Wait until a rim begin at the border of mould, rim thickness means wall thickness of shell, then turn out the acrylic. Cold cure acrylic is using by westone as I know, it is very robust material. This info is expensive info for me, it costs to me about 3-4kg cold acrylic.


 
  
 Wow, great info! Do you know what material is used for the negative mold, since it has to be preheated. Don't know if it will work with silicone? Then you just let it set a bit and then pour out the remaining acrylic mix, am I right (like they do with uv treated shells)?


----------



## tsn141

kellogsx said:


> Wow, great info! Do you know what material is used for the negative mold, since it has to be preheated. Don't know if it will work with silicone? Then you just let it set a bit and then pour out the remaining acrylic mix, am I right (like they do with uv treated shells)?


 
 I used agar-agar gel, and plaster mold also used. I heat up negative with hot water. Yes very similar to UV method, heat and time cures material instead of UV, but remaining part not used again. There is rough surface inside of shell only problem is this.


----------



## KeLLoGsX

Ok, plaster I have plenty and I think I can get some agar-agar as well, will try it out.
  
 Right now I'm doing a new negative mold in gelatine (food-grade) instead, last time I used it for the acrylic mix it came out very nice and smooth.


----------



## tsn141

I heated up gel via hot water, you can heat up plaster via oven or similar lamp.


----------



## squambug

Alright, Noob here. I have gone through about 150 pages, but still have more to go in order to catch up.
  
 I want to start out with a TWFK / CI combo.  However, I am going on a long trip very soon and want to take time to balance the pair, so I was thinking of just a single ED for now (unless you can convince me otherwise).  
  
 Couple of questions:
  
 1. For single ED, what tube length range do you recommend experimenting with?
  
 2. Where is the best place to buy tubing?  - 2mm ID I would assume with the filters being 2.08, Right? - I have found sourcing for pretty much all the other parts.
  
 3.  MMCX female...what is the part number for Mouser?  This is the one that I was thinking of, but it is PCB mount.   http://www.mouser.com/Search/m_ProductDetail.aspx?Linx-Technologies%2fCONMMCX001%2f&qs=sGAEpiMZZMuLQf%252bEuFsOru48dlYVRPu%252b56IpUHEmH30%3d
  
 Thanks for the help.


----------



## piotrus-g

You want to go with 13-16mm x 2mmID tubing and damper 680-1500 Ohm.


----------



## briancortez2112

squambug said:


> Alright, Noob here. I have gone through about 150 pages, but still have more to go in order to catch up.
> 
> I want to start out with a TWFK / CI combo.  However, I am going on a long trip very soon and want to take time to balance the pair, so I was thinking of just a single ED for now (unless you can convince me otherwise).
> 
> ...


 
 This is the mmcx part you need
http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=73415-0963virtualkey53810000virtualkey538-73415-0963


----------



## CMOS1138

squambug said:


> Alright, Noob here. I have gone through about 150 pages, but still have more to go in order to catch up.
> 
> I want to start out with a TWFK / CI combo.  However, I am going on a long trip very soon and want to take time to balance the pair, so I was thinking of just a single ED for now (unless you can convince me otherwise).
> 
> ...


 
 you can purchase tubing from microsnics  here is #13 tubing that will be close to 2mm ID http://store.microsonic-inc.com/203-13mediumtubing-bulkbythefoot.aspx you may find it dificult to fit the dampers inside a tube that is smaller in diamiter than the damper, I use #12 tubing and th dampers slip right in. http://store.microsonic-inc.com/203-12standardtubing-bulkbythefoot.aspx
  
  
 ED is a good choice for a single driver and I do not want to discourage you from building that because I think you will probably be happy with it, but since you mentioned that you want to do a TWFK/CI combo why not use GK? It is a single unit combining TWFK and CI with a built in crossover, only one place to solder to and you can use a single acoustic tube to cover both ports if you want to keep things simple. It wouldn't be any more complicated of a build than ED since you can treat it as a single driver. 
  
 If you are like the rest of us, you will probably end up building both of your ideas eventually and more after that.


----------



## acain

A good place to buy tubing is Westone Hearing supply online and they ship out fast. They also have every size possible.


----------



## squambug

Thanks for the advice y'all.
  
 Quote:


cmos1138 said:


> If you are like the rest of us, you will probably end up building both of your ideas eventually and more after that.


 
 Hmm...noted.  I know that I have a lot of 'experimenting' to do ahead of me 
  
 Good call acain.  I saw that microsonics is out right now of the straight up tubing.


----------



## squambug

cmos1138 said:


> ED is a good choice for a single driver and I do not want to discourage you from building that because I think you will probably be happy with it, but since you mentioned that you want to do a TWFK/CI combo why not use GK? It is a single unit combining TWFK and CI with a built in crossover, only one place to solder to and you can use a single acoustic tube to cover both ports if you want to keep things simple. It wouldn't be any more complicated of a build than ED since you can treat it as a single driver.


 
  
 I am just curious about the ports being at the same location.  From what I have been reading, the base should have a longer tube and the TWFK shorter.  Do you have experience with the GK?  Thoughts about this?


----------



## CMOS1138

squambug said:


> I am just curious about the ports being at the same location.  From what I have been reading, the base should have a longer tube and the TWFK shorter.  Do you have experience with the GK?  Thoughts about this?


 
  
 Yes, my first build was with GK and I have made several sets for friends and family using it since then. It is true that it does not allow the flexibility of driver placement and the tube length will have to be nearly equal, if you use 2 tubes you can make one shorter depending on how you position the driver in the shell, but it won't be much shorter. Another way to manage the acoustic tuning is by using a smaller ID tube on the CI port and larger on TWFK. I managed the tuning in my build by using a red damper on the CI port and no damper on TWFK, I would describe the sound as warm base with clean mids and airy highs with an overall slight V shaped sound. because I don't use any damper on the TWFK It is prone to amplify any hiss that may be in the recording or playback device as the case may be and this is especially noticeable on quieter music types such as classical but I like to have those airy sounding highs and I have other builds that are more forgiving to lower quality recordings (ED is great for this) or for classical music (GQ is best for classical)


----------



## Daedalus1116

Is Mouser the only place to get Knowles's drivers? The shipping to Thailand is very expensive.


----------



## CMOS1138

daedalus1116 said:


> Is Mouser the only place to get Knowles's drivers? The shipping to Thailand is very expensive.


 
 No, most retailers of electronic components cary Knowles products. Mouser is simply the one that those of us in the US use. You can probably find something more local to you.


----------



## ilikeiem

daedalus1116 said:


> Is Mouser the only place to get Knowles's drivers? The shipping to Thailand is very expensive.


 
 BA driver like this?  http://www.aliexpress.com/store/group/In-Ear-Monitor/1333016_258331772.html


----------



## Mython

ilikeiem said:


> BA driver like this?  http://www.aliexpress.com/store/group/In-Ear-Monitor/1333016_258331772.html


 
  
  
 The minimum order numbers are a bit prohibitive, on that page, unfortunately.


----------



## KeLLoGsX

I'm not that far into this project yet but thought it best checking about this already...

When soldering the cables to the drivers soldering pad, do you think it will work to use a professional desktop laserwelder? 
We have a unit at work, I can't work it on my own but somebody will be able to help me.

Right now my first driver choice is the GK-31732.


----------



## briancortez2112

Recently finished pair


----------



## Daedalus1116

briancortez2112 said:


> Recently finished pair :atsmile:



That looks stunning!
What drivers are you using and how did you do your y-split?


----------



## briancortez2112

daedalus1116 said:


> That looks stunning!
> What drivers are you using and how did you do your y-split?


 
 Thanks a bunch, i didnt make the cable, got it from Luna Shops i belive. 
 I used a knowles GQ +HODVTEC


----------



## briancortez2112

With the Logo


----------



## acain

briancortez2112 said:


> With the Logo


 

 What did you make the shell out of, and how long did it take to get stuff shipped from Luna Shop? I have been on this thread for awhile and you have made quiet a few ciem's they look better and better every time good job.


----------



## briancortez2112

acain said:


> What did you make the shell out of, and how long did it take to get stuff shipped from Luna Shop? I have been on this thread for awhile and you have made quiet a few ciem's they look better and better every time good job.



For these I used dreve s/io, and it takes about 3 week to get stuff from Luna shop.. Sometimes faster. Thanks Acain for the kind words!


----------



## Daedalus1116

What's people's experience using nail polish to make shell instead of the dedicated stuff frome Dreve or Egger? Does it comes out smooth and clear?


----------



## acain

I always look at Luna Shop but never bought anything, I was always afraid of the shipping delay or never receiving stuff. But I think I will give it a try.


----------



## KeLLoGsX

daedalus1116 said:


> What's people's experience using nail polish to make shell instead of the dedicated stuff frome Dreve or Egger? Does it comes out smooth and clear?




+1

Looking at clear UV gel for nails as an alternative to Fotoplast, anyone who has any experience with this?


----------



## Silverprout

kellogsx said:


> +1
> 
> Looking at clear UV gel for nails as an alternative to Fotoplast, anyone who has any experience with this?


 
  
 You can, but the UV gel for nails is not ISO 10993... you should not put it in contact with your skin !


----------



## Daedalus1116

silverprout said:


> You can, but the UV gel for nails is not ISO 10993... you should not put it in contact with your skin !



Bummer, I thought that UV nail gel is skin contact safe. 
Is there any alternative to UV acrylic by Dreve, Egger? The shipping from Lighting Enterprise to where I live is $100.


----------



## Silverprout

daedalus1116 said:


> Bummer, I thought that UV nail gel is skin contact safe.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 All UV nail gels are not "skin safe".
 If you can't have the ISO 10993 or USP class VI manufacturer certificate... you can expect a toxic product (some are highly toxic).


----------



## Mython

silverprout said:


> All UV nail gels are not "skin safe".
> If you can't have the ISO 10993 or USP class VI manufacturer certificate... you can expect a toxic product (some are highly toxic).


 
  
  
 In such instances, I find this can be very helpful:


----------



## Silverprout

mython said:


> In such instances, I find this can be very helpful:


 
  
 LOL...
 Because of allergy problems, now nail art product are made of cyano.
  
 ...100$ of resin !... high end CIEMS costs 1000$ and you can reshell and modify them free.


----------



## Mython

silverprout said:


> LOL...
> Because of allergy problems, now nail art product are made of cyano.
> 
> ...100$ of resin !... high end CIEMS costs 1000$ and you can reshell and modify them free.


 
  
  
 I've used Cyanoacrylate for the past 3 decades (building radio-controlled model aircraft), but it's interesting stuff, with a surprising variety of applications:
  
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyanoacrylate
  
 http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2187/was-super-glue-invented-to-seal-battle-wounds-in-vietnam

  


> Medical CA glue was in *veterinary* use for mending bone, hide, and tortoise shell by the early 1970s or before. Harry Coover said in 1966 that a CA spray was used in the Vietnam War to reduce bleeding in wounded soldiers until they could be brought to a hospital. Butyl cyanoacrylate has been used medically since the 1970s. In the US, due to its potential to irritate the skin, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration did not approve its use as a medical adhesive until 1998 with Dermabond.[9] Research has demonstrated the use of cyanoacrylate in wound closure as being safer and more functional than traditional suturing (stitches).[10] The adhesive has demonstrated superior performance in the time required to close a wound, incidence of infection (suture canals through the skin's epidermal, dermal, and subcutaneous fat layers introduce extra routes of contamination),[10] and final cosmetic appearance.[11][12]
> Some rock climbers use cyanoacrylate to repair damage to the skin on their fingertips.[13][14] Glue covered fingertips do not leave fingerprints. Similarly, stringed-instrument players can form protective finger caps (in addition to calluses) with cyanoacrylates. While the glue is not very toxic and wears off quickly with shed skin, applying large quantities of glue and its fumes directly to the skin can cause chemical burns.
> While standard "superglue" is 100% ethyl cyanoacrylate, many custom formulations (_e.g.,_, 91% ECA, 9% poly(methyl methacrylate), <0.5% hydroquinone, and a small amount of organic sulfonic acid[15] and variations on the compound N-butyl-cyanoacrylate's for medical applications[10]) have come to be used for specific applications.


 
  
  
 I'm full of admiration for the contributors in this thread who build their own CIEMs.   Keep 'em coming!


----------



## Silverprout

mython said:


> I've used Cyanoacrylate for the past 3 decades (building radio-controlled model aircraft), but it's interesting stuff, with a surprising variety of applications:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyanoacrylate
> 
> ...


 
  
 The problem is also that all acrylic and cyano resins are highly toxic or corrosive before curing... you should use gloves and with a good air extraction !


----------



## Mython

silverprout said:


> The problem is also that all acrylic and cyano resins are highly toxic or corrosive before curing... you should use gloves and with a good air extraction !


 
  
  
  
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2187/was-super-glue-invented-to-seal-battle-wounds-in-vietnam


> Although cyanoacrylate glues were useful on the battlefield, the FDA was reluctant to approve them for civilian use. In part, this was due to a tendency of the early compounds (made from "methyl-2-cyanoacrylate") to irritate the skin as the glue reacted with water and cured in the skin, releasing cyanoacetate and formaldehyde. A compound called "butyl-2-cyanoacrylate" was developed to reduce toxicity, but suffered from brittleness and cracking a few days after application. Finally an improved cyanoacrylate glue was developed for medical applications called "2-octyl-cyanoacrylate." This compound causes less skin irritation and has improved flexibility and strength--at least three times the strength of the butyl-based compound (reference 2). As a result, in 1998 the FDA approved 2-octyl cyanoacrylate for use in closing wounds and surgical incisions, and in 2001 approved it for use as a "barrier against common bacterial microbes including certain staphylococci, pseudomonads, and _ Escherichia coli_" (reference 2). This latest incarnation was marketed under the name Traumaseal as well as the more popular Dermabond.


 
  
  
 I've only ever used standard mass-market cyano - any thoughts on the above? Ever tried medical-grade cyano?
  
  
  
 .


----------



## Silverprout

mython said:


> http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2187/was-super-glue-invented-to-seal-battle-wounds-in-vietnam
> 
> 
> I've only ever used standard mass-market cyano - any thoughts on the above? Ever tried medical-grade cyano?
> ...


 

 What a story !
  
 Cyanolit 214F is ISO10993 an USP IV compilant and only 10$ for 20Gr.
  
 But you can't make shells with it.


----------



## Mython

silverprout said:


> What a story !
> 
> Cyanolit 214F is ISO10993 an USP IV compilant and only 10$ for 20Gr.
> 
> But you can't make shells with it.


 
  
  
 Hmmm... you've actually got me thinking about cyano + glass microbeads...


----------



## Silverprout

mython said:


> Hmmm... you've actually got me thinking about cyano + glass microbeads...




Only if your glass microbeads are iso 10993 !


----------



## Xymordos

I've been wondering, can you get the westone/jh sockets on mouser?


----------



## KeLLoGsX

xymordos said:


> I've been wondering, can you get the westone/jh sockets on mouser?


 
  
 I ordered sockets and pins from null-audio, and you can choose from 3 different variants
  
 http://www.null-audio.com/collections/diy-parts/products/ciem-diy-sockets 
  
 Only ordered last week so I haven't received any yet.


----------



## Xymordos

Hmm I guess mouser doesn't stock them then. It'll be cheaper and easier to get it off mouser than null audio for me.


----------



## DingoSmuggler

xymordos said:


> Hmm I guess mouser doesn't stock them then. It'll be cheaper and easier to get it off mouser than null audio for me.


 
 connectors > RF > coaxial > MMCX
 quite a few there


----------



## MuZo2

He is asking for 2 pin connectors, recessed or normal.


----------



## KeLLoGsX

dingosmuggler said:


> connectors > RF > coaxial > MMCX
> quite a few there


 
 But if I need to find some nice 2 pin connectors male/female at Mouser, how do I filter it out... There are 12.000 connectors and I don't know what to search for?


----------



## Xymordos

I don't want to use MMCX since all of my upgrade cables are using the 0.78mm pins. It will be too pricey and annoying to change them all to MMCX. I've used some very high quality 0.78mm ones before, but then shipping from China to Hong Kong isn't that cheap too as they have to get past immigration and taxes.


----------



## tsn141

2-Pin sockets are hard find. Not only prices varies but also quality varies at sockets.


----------



## shakur1996

xymordos said:


> I don't want to use MMCX since all of my upgrade cables are using the 0.78mm pins. It will be too pricey and annoying to change them all to MMCX. I've used some very high quality 0.78mm ones before, but then shipping from China to Hong Kong isn't that cheap too as they have to get past immigration and taxes.


 

 Maybe here: http://www.colsanmicro.com/components/cables/


----------



## CMOS1138

kellogsx said:


> But if I need to find some nice 2 pin connectors male/female at Mouser, how do I filter it out... There are 12.000 connectors and I don't know what to search for?


 
 you can use these sockets  http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=206071-1virtualkey57100000virtualkey571-2060711
  
 keep in mind that you will need to order 4 of them for 1 set.


----------



## Xymordos

Those are some very very expensive sockets LOL


----------



## KeLLoGsX

cmos1138 said:


> you can use these sockets  http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=206071-1virtualkey57100000virtualkey571-2060711
> 
> keep in mind that you will need to order 4 of them for 1 set.


 
  
 Thanks, I actually found these as well yesterday. But first I'll try the connectors/sockets ordered from Null Audio, which was shipped today  
  
 Next problem is the acoustic tubes, I don't really know where I can get them. Does Microsonic ship to Europe? I also looked at Audiotronics.it but the website is really not that great, hard to find anything there.


----------



## CMOS1138

xymordos said:


> Those are some very very expensive sockets LOL


 
 It is about $9 for the full set, This is what I was using before I switched over to MMCX which I can get on e-bay for less than $1 each so only $2 in connectors per set.


----------



## KeLLoGsX

cmos1138 said:


> It is about $9 for the full set, This is what I was using before I switched over to MMCX which I can get on e-bay for less than $1 each so only $2 in connectors per set.


 
 How do you compare MMCX vs 2-pin, except for the obvious pricedifference. Which ones do you prefer? Do the MMCx attach to the socket enough?


----------



## MuZo2

I had various problems with MMCX.


----------



## CMOS1138

kellogsx said:


> How do you compare MMCX vs 2-pin, except for the obvious pricedifference. Which ones do you prefer? Do the MMCx attach to the socket enough?


 
 I switched to MMCX because I got tired of the cables detaching from the IEM to easily. The MMCX connectors hold on to the cable strongly. Of course it depends on the cable, I have sone 2 pin cables that never accidentally detach and I have a MMCX cable that doesn't want to stay connected.


----------



## Furco

I use MMCX for all my cables and IEMs because of the seemingly vast difference in 2 pin connectors.  There are only 2 types of mmcx: male and female.  That's good enough for me.  Okay, there are right ones too but let's not argue about semantics.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
  
 Also, if you have to buy individual pins and sockets, I would think it would be a pain in the dupa to align them the same way for the cable and the jack in the IEM shell.


----------



## Daedalus1116

Does anybody know how this is achieved?


----------



## Mython

daedalus1116 said:


> Does anybody know how this is achieved?


 
  
 Don't know 100% for sure, but it looks like standard translucent acrylic, with some fine glitter added *after* the liquid acrylic has been placed on the faceplate mould, and then carefully swirled around, so as to _*not*_ spread the glitter evenly throughout the entire faceplate.
  
 I suppose it's possible some _lighter_ translucent blue acrylic may have been stirred in, too, to increase the variation between different areas...
  
 Interested to hear others' interpretations, too.
  
  
 .


----------



## CMOS1138

furco said:


> Also, if you have to buy individual pins and sockets, I would think it would be a pain in the dupa to align them the same way for the cable and the jack in the IEM shell.


 
  
 It isn't all that hard to align individual pins, just stick them on the end of the cable you will be using and create a bridge between the two pins using a dab of uv acrylic. That gives you a single unit to work with just like any other pre made socket.


----------



## Furco

Magic....plain and simple.

Seriously, though, I think those guys over at Noble use some slow set resin similar to Alumilite along with metallic powders. Their top/gloss coat is "skin safe" but they make no such claims about what is below the top coat. I know for a fact that many exotic wood species can cause skin irritation and that some of the woods they use for their Prestige line are in that category (e.g. cocobolo)

Also, they do have a good camera guy/girl and lighting to make various aspects of the design pop!


----------



## acain

Some custom companies use a solid piece of acrylic and mill the while thing out and polish it to a glass finish.


----------



## Furco

I definitely should do some research with polishing acrylic. Doesn't sound like it requires a big investment of $$ to try a few things.

Anyone have thoughts or suggestions about polishing compounds specific to acrylic?


----------



## Xymordos

I use the standard modelling compounds made by...Tomica from Japan I think? I use sand paper to sand the shell smooth, then use the "sanding paste" (can't remember the name of that thing) in order of roughness (there's 3 roughness levels from rough, fine, to super fine) with a dremel tool and cloth wheel. Finally I apply a mirror finish to it using a spray of this mirror compound shown before in this thread and the mirror finish paste.


----------



## acain

furco said:


> I definitely should do some research with polishing acrylic. Doesn't sound like it requires a big investment of $$ to try a few things.
> 
> Anyone have thoughts or suggestions about polishing compounds specific to acrylic?


 
 Go to the nail salon and watch them buff nails lol. I take my daughter and it's amazing what they can do.


----------



## Daedalus1116

Does using multiples of the same drivers improve the sound? We can clearly see this in many "high-end" IEM where for example, they use a TWFK for mids, and then another for high-mids and the another for highs (I hope you get the picture). I thought that it would only redude the distortion since there's lower load.


----------



## CMOS1138

daedalus1116 said:


> Does using multiples of the same drivers improve the sound? We can clearly see this in many "high-end" IEM where for example, they use a TWFK for mids, and then another for high-mids and the another for highs (I hope you get the picture). I thought that it would only redude the distortion since there's lower load.


 
  
 My gut feeling is no but then again I didn't really believe that tubing length and diameter would have all that big of an impact on sound either before I experimented with it myself.
  
 A good example of what you are talking about is that article about ACS costumes that was posted here a few pages back, there new top end IEM uses 2 TWFK's and 1 CI, This is exactly opposite of the way most of us here would do it and for the life of me I can't figure out what you would gain by using 2 TWFK's other than a larger number of drivers to use as marketing. So far, the only reason I have gone past 3 drivers is that I was using DTEC as either the Base or Mids driver in a 3 way crossover. 
  
 piotrus-g do you have any insight as to what benefit exists with using more than 1 TWFK?


----------



## Xymordos

I remember reading somewhere that wiring them in series will help smooth out some peaks due to impedance change, not sure if that's exactly how it works.


----------



## tranhieu

More SPL, or to put it in a nicer way for marketing's sake, more 'resolution'.
  
 Whatever it means to you is a different matter.
  
 Btw wiring 2 drivers in series might result in a roll off at upper frequencies due to both drivers see the other as a low pass.


----------



## shakur1996

As tranhiey said, add of additional driver increases SPL, typically by 6dB and this gives you more headroom.


----------



## MuZo2

cmos1138 said:


> My gut feeling is no but then again I didn't really believe that tubing length and diameter would have all that big of an impact on sound either before I experimented with it myself.
> 
> A good example of what you are talking about is that article about ACS costumes that was posted here a few pages back, there new top end IEM uses 2 TWFK's and 1 CI, This is exactly opposite of the way most of us here would do it and for the life of me I can't figure out what you would gain by using 2 TWFK's other than a larger number of drivers to use as marketing. So far, the only reason I have gone past 3 drivers is that I was using DTEC as either the Base or Mids driver in a 3 way crossover.
> 
> piotrus-g do you have any insight as to what benefit exists with using more than 1 TWFK?


 
  
 I am not sure how ACS has used its TWFK, but when two TWFK are used you can use them with different filters and also different band pass.
 So one can be used for super high and mids. And another for high and low mids.


----------



## tsn141

tranhieu said:


> More SPL, or to put it in a nicer way for marketing's sake, more 'resolution'.
> 
> Whatever it means to you is a different matter.
> 
> Btw wiring 2 drivers in series might result in a roll off at upper frequencies due to both drivers see the other as a low pass.


 
 As learn from my experiment and my simulations, wiring series does not occur HF roll off. It reduces half SPL and 2 drivers gives 0.5 X 2=1 out.


----------



## Xymordos

tsn141 said:


> As learn from my experiment and my simulations, wiring series does not occur HF roll off. It reduces half SPL and 2 drivers gives 0.5 X 2=1 out.


 
 I wonder if the sound quality is the same as one driver. The UERM also uses 2x 2300 drivers in series.


----------



## tsn141

xymordos said:


> I wonder if the sound quality is the same as one driver. The UERM also uses 2x 2300 drivers in series.


 

 Sound *level *is same with single one, but load of driver is half. This means more SQ.
 I only know about UERM is using 2 caps and 2 drivers and a resistor.


----------



## Xymordos

UERM has 2x 2300 drivers and a CI driver. The CI driver has a 28ohm resistor attached with apparently a 6.8uf cap (not sure). Can't tell about the high pass though.
  
 So it is usually better to connect a dual driver in series :O


----------



## tranhieu

tsn141 said:


> As learn from my experiment and my simulations, wiring series does not occur HF roll off. It reduces half SPL and 2 drivers gives 0.5 X 2=1 out.


 
 I proposed that idea to Eric Hruza at Sonion 2 years ago and he also concured with it. He also mentioned that the PSpice model isn't complex enough to simulate real time response.
  
 For the record, lots and lots of manufacturers these days use this dual drivers wired in series config to build woofer networks. The first to use it if I remember correctly was Jerry when he designed his JH16. 2x 3300 wired in series with each having its single units wired in series at the same time making 4 in total. The mid bass was montrous.


----------



## Xymordos

But the treble extension of UERM seems fine when its wired in series, is the effect just very small? Haha, having a monstrous midbass isn't very good for the sound is it. 
  
 Btw, 28Ohms resistor in series with a 6.8uf cap in parallel on the CI22955 gives it a very flat response - exactly the same as UERM's mids in fact. I'm guessing the high pass uses a single 2.2uf cap.


----------



## tranhieu

xymordos said:


> But the treble extension of UERM seems fine when its wired in series, is the effect just very small? Haha, having a monstrous midbass isn't very good for the sound is it.
> 
> Btw, 28Ohms resistor in series with a 6.8uf cap in parallel on the CI22955 gives it a very flat response - exactly the same as UERM's mids in fact. I'm guessing the high pass uses a single 2.2uf cap.


 
 Yeah it hits like there would be no tomorrow. That would come in handy on stage though.
  
 The 2389 is a weird case. In fact I have seen that happened with the CI, 3300 and 2000. Never tried 2x 2389 in series, but AFAIK the CW-L05QD also uses 2x 2389 as woofer with no caps, not sure if they're wired in series though.


----------



## tsn141

tranhieu said:


> I proposed that idea to Eric Hruza at Sonion 2 years ago and he also concured with it. He also mentioned that the PSpice model isn't complex enough to simulate real time response.
> 
> For the record, lots and lots of manufacturers these days use this dual drivers wired in series config to build woofer networks. The first to use it if I remember correctly was Jerry when he designed his JH16. 2x 3300 wired in series with each having its single units wired in series at the same time making 4 in total. The mid bass was montrous.


 
 As I said those are my experiments and PSpice simulations. I used series combination at tweeter and there is no HF roll-off. These are my experimental and simulation knowledge. I remember JH16 uses series combination at tweeter but not sure.


----------



## Xymordos

tranhieu said:


> Yeah it hits like there would be no tomorrow. That would come in handy on stage though.
> 
> The 2389 is a weird case. In fact I have seen that happened with the CI, 3300 and 2000. Never tried 2x 2389 in series, but AFAIK the CW-L05QD also uses 2x 2389 as woofer with no caps, not sure if they're wired in series though.


 
  
 I really didn't like the JH sound. It sounds like the lows, mids, and treble are detached from each other. Like each section is from a different set of IEMs. No coherency at all.
  
 The L05QD uses 4x2354 I thought? From the pics I see two resistors, and a small black box-ish thing, not sure what that is. 
  
 The highs extend very well on the 29689 as well when I wire them in series actually.


----------



## tranhieu

xymordos said:


> I really didn't like the JH sound. It sounds like the lows, mids, and treble are detached from each other. Like each section is from a different set of IEMs. No coherency at all.
> 
> The L05QD uses 4x2354 I thought? From the pics I see two resistors, and a small black box-ish thing, not sure what that is.
> 
> The highs extend very well on the 29689 as well when I wire them in series actually.


 
 Are they 2354? Yeah maybe I was wrong on that.
  
 Perhaps the 2389 isn't as inductive compared to the other series hence less roll off.
  
 On that note I remember getting some inductance graph from Sonion years ago. Let me check if I still have it lol.
  
 EDIT: As I thought the 3300s are way way more inductive than the half-coiled 2389s! No wonder the JH16's kickdrum sounds as if it's from another world lol


----------



## Xymordos

tranhieu said:


> Are they 2354? Yeah maybe I was wrong on that.
> 
> Perhaps the 2389 isn't as inductive compared to the other series hence less roll off.
> 
> On that note I remember getting some inductance graph from Sonion years ago. Let me check if I still have it lol.


 
  
 Yeah they are, in the pictures you can clearly see the vent and the model number. The 2354 graphs on Sonion looks really scary on the highs. It's amazing how CW managed to tune them nicely. 
  
 I wonder if the same will work for a 3800 in series 
  
 Hey I've read that in speakers, you would add a parallel resistor to smooth the impedance curve. Is it possible to do that with BAs?


----------



## tranhieu

xymordos said:


> Yeah they are, in the pictures you can clearly see the vent and the model number. The 2354 graphs on Sonion looks really scary on the highs. It's amazing how CW managed to tune them nicely.
> 
> I wonder if the same will work for a 3800 in series
> 
> Hey I've read that in speakers, you would add a parallel resistor to smooth the impedance curve. Is it possible to do that with BAs?


 
 Never tried the 3800, you can see it yourself and report back here 
  
 Nope, due to the highly inductive nature of BA there's no way to do that with just resistors only. If you're talking about a multifold design that might be possible.


----------



## Xymordos

I see, thanks!
  
 Is there any way you can show me the data for inductance values for the Sonion drivers? It would be very helpful for reference!


----------



## tsn141

Since drivers are same, the voltage at connection between drivers are half of the inlet voltage(not depends of type of element(ie capacitor, inductor etc)). Therefore half drivers produce half SPL. This is my aproach.


----------



## ariessales

.


----------



## Xymordos

Either use DTEC by itself with a very wide tube or get yourself a pair of ED29689 which should be quite cheap. 
  
 Not sure if adding a resistor might help?


----------



## Xymordos

I managed to get my China 711 calibrated correctly. Then...the right side of my UERM died completely so I decided to try to make a replica of it using the ED29689 instead of the 2389. This was the result. I didn't use the horn design for the tweeter because it was too annoying to make for me.


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


----------



## ariessales

.


----------



## MuZo2

> This was the result. I didn't use the horn design for the tweeter because it was too annoying to make for me.


 
 Is it comparison of your build vs UERM?
 Do you have picture of horn?


----------



## Xymordos

ariessales said:


> A wide tube means a bigger vent to emphasize highs?


 
  
 Yup
  


muzo2 said:


> Is it comparison of your build vs UERM?
> Do you have picture of horn?


 
  
 No that's the left and right drivers haha. No way I can get them to be exactly the same as my customs. I can only guess what the values of the caps are since you can't see the stuff printed on them. You can see that it is a 28ohm resistor though.


----------



## Mython

OK, today I have decided that you're all doing CIEMs wrong and everyone (including commercial makers) should really be making CIEMs from _papier-mâché_ instead of silicone or acrylic.
  
  
 That is all, for now. You're welcome.


----------



## Xymordos

Here's the comparison between my UERM customs and the universals I made with the ED29689. The UERM customs don't actually have that 3-4k peak that I have. Not sure if it is due to age (over 3 years now and the filters are getting clogged). 
  
 The other picture shows my sound tubes - they are just two regular PVC ones and no horn design involved.
  
 Edit: The wonky graph is because I couldn't get the IEMs to stay in place when I was testing them.


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


----------



## Mython

Out of curiosity, has anyone ever experimented with a larger-bore chamber placed somewhere approximately mid-way within the length of a soundtube? I'm not really sure what effect this might have upon the sound.


----------



## Xymordos

mython said:


> Out of curiosity, has anyone ever experimented with a larger-bore chamber placed somewhere approximately mid-way within the length of a soundtube? I'm not really sure what effect this might have upon the sound.


 
  
 That's supposedly meant to act as a low pass according to a search online?


----------



## MuZo2

xymordos said:


> Edit: The wonky graph is because I couldn't get the IEMs to stay in place when I was testing them.


 
 Did you try using bluetack while measuring ciem?


----------



## piotrus-g

@Xymordos - ARTA - CRTL+C on measument window and you get clear shot of graph - you don't have to screen cap you whole screen.


----------



## Furco

ariessales said:


> Hi!
> Please bear with me for my lack of knowledge.
> Im just new on headfi and also a newbie maker of ciem. Ive been reading your discussions and threads. I am learning a lot. But as a guy who doesnt have any background on electronics or what not, It's hard for me to follow discussions that are not in layman's term.
> 
> ...




Sounds like you've been shopping at LunaShop-

Trying to pair a DTEC with a CI isn't worth the effort, in my opinion. The DTEC is so powerful that it'll take some effort to get it to play nice with the CI and you won't have any hi-end to enjoy. Get yourself a pair of WBFKs. Then you could have a pretty decent sound if your paired together the CI + WBFK fairly easily. The DTEC requires some skill to handle because it's so loud and will drown out a single WBFK. 

I do like the DTEC. If you can believe it, I have a a prototype configuration with a CI+DTEC+DTEC+WBFK that sounds kind of amazing to my ears. And yes, it's very loud.


----------



## Furco

mython said:


> Out of curiosity, has anyone ever experimented with a larger-bore chamber placed somewhere approximately mid-way within the length of a soundtube? I'm not really sure what effect this might have upon the sound.




Isn't that a "horn", more-or-less? Horns enhance higher frequencies if I'm not mistaken.


----------



## Furco

xymordos said:


> I managed to get my China 711 calibrated correctly.




How'd you calibrate it? I'm very curious, for obvious reasons.


----------



## Mython

furco said:


> Isn't that a "horn", more-or-less? Horns enhance higher frequencies if I'm not mistaken.


 
  
  
 My interpretation of a horn is that the bore increases until the soundwave reaches the outside world (i.e. the ear canal)
  
 i.e.                    small bore => _larger bore_ => _even larger bore_ => exits CIEM into the ear canal.
  
  
  
  
 But I meant         small bore => _large bore_ => small bore => exits CIEM into the ear canal.
  
  
  
  
 I may be wrong, but I don't think that would operate as a horn, would it? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
  
  
 .


----------



## Xymordos

piotrus-g said:


> @Xymordos - ARTA - CRTL+C on measument window and you get clear shot of graph - you don't have to screen cap you whole screen.


 
  
 OHH..so that's how you guys export it as an image. Been trying to figure that out for a while now.


furco said:


> How'd you calibrate it? I'm very curious, for obvious reasons.


 
  
 Got the original seller to tune a USB sound card for it since the one on my laptop tests weirdly.


----------



## Daedalus1116

Is there any where I can get high-quality universal shells?


----------



## MuZo2

daedalus1116 said:


> Is there any where I can get high-quality universal shells?


 

 Taobao you have various options.


----------



## piotrus-g

furco said:


> Trying to pair a DTEC with a CI isn't worth the effort, in my opinion. The DTEC is so powerful that it'll take some effort to get it to play nice with the CI and you won't have any hi-end to enjoy. Get yourself a pair of WBFKs. Then you could have a pretty decent sound if your paired together the CI + WBFK fairly easily. The DTEC requires some skill to handle because it's so loud and will drown out a single WBFK.


 
 IMHO this is not true. If you compare CI and DTEC with the same impedance CI is louder. DTEC has different frequency response and require different damping. You can easily use CI with 680 Ohm damper while DTEC will work good with 2200 and more  Ohm dampers.


----------



## KeLLoGsX

I received my connectors from Null Audio yesterday, tiny little things  They fit prefectly together, with a little snap and it seems to grip tight.
  
 But I'm not really sure how to proceed with the pins inside the shell. It's two solid pins, am I just suppose to solder the wires straight on to it or is there any other way I'm supposed to do it?
 On the hollow pins one seems to be colored a bit differently inside, is this only to match the correct wires?


----------



## Daedalus1116

kellogsx said:


>



Wow, those looks to be of very high quality.


----------



## KeLLoGsX

daedalus1116 said:


> Wow, those looks to be of very high quality.


 
 They look great but still there's problem with soldering on the socket pins. If they were hollow there would be no problem but now I have to solder the wire onto the pin (which doesn't seem correct?) and then put on some shrinking sleeve.


----------



## Daedalus1116

Can anyone recommend the drivers and filters for a balanced sound with slightly forward mids and airy trebles? I'm currently thinking of using the GKs and maybe a dedicated WBFK for the treble.
  
 Thanks.


----------



## KeLLoGsX

kellogsx said:


> They look great but still there's problem with soldering on the socket pins. If they were hollow there would be no problem but now I have to solder the wire onto the pin (which doesn't seem correct?) and then put on some shrinking sleeve.


 
 Well it seems it doesn't really matter how it looks... Since I can't effing solder!!


----------



## Mython

Just noticed that 1964 are achieving a very substantial  large-bore=>small-bore  ratio with the tubing on their ADEL module:
  

  
  
 Or perhaps they are using a moulded plastic manifold, but I can't quite see a definite junction between the two, if that is the case.
  
 Or maybe the ADEL module sits in an unusually deep solid acrylic portion of the shell, with that void (at the junction of ADEL module and it's dedicated soundtube) being moulded or drilled-out of the solid acrylic.
  
 I recall Starkey (now M-Fidelity) using what appear to be custom-moulded sound tubes, on the SA-43, which is a nice way of maintaining consistency across numerous customers' pairs of CIEMs. It's always struck me as strange that more CIEM vendors don't use this approach, unless BAs have a less consistent batch frequency response than one would hope. Perhaps we will see more of this approach, with the increasing momentum of 3D printing technology (in which case, it might be done as an _integral _feature of the printed CIEM shell itself)
  

  
  
  
 ...whilst I'm on the topic of peculiarities in CIEM construction, I've never noticed any CIEM maker (professional _or_ DIY) doing what Sony did with their soundtubes, here:
  
http://www.head-fi.org/t/739725/sony-announces-the-just-ear-brand-of-custom-iems/60#post_10993232
  

  
  
 Anyone else have examples of such peculiarities not frequently seen in mainstream CIEMs?
  
  
 I do appreciate that this is a DIY CIEM thread, but some cross-germination of ideas can be a positive thing, and I don't see why commercial makers should have all the fun.
  
 In that spirit, here's some more food-for-thought, to get the old grey cells whirring:
  
http://www.head-fi.org/t/753632/introducing-the-worlds-first-lear-patented-nss-natural-stereo-sound-earphone-technology
  
  
 .


----------



## Xymordos

I remember that was something to prevent the tube from sharp bending?


----------



## Mython

xymordos said:


> I remember that was something to prevent the tube from sharp bending?


 
  
 Well, that was my interpretation, too, but I've never seen anyone from Sony confirm it.


----------



## Silverprout

mython said:


> Well, that was my interpretation, too, but I've never seen anyone from Sony confirm it.


 

 IMHO, don't take Sony as an example.
 Their CIEMs uses the Sonion 2356 for the highs... and it is not the best armature for that register, by far.

 If that 2000$ high-end CIEMs don't use the best armatures available (claimed by BA the manufacturer), it is because they are bad engineered.


----------



## Mython

silverprout said:


> IMHO, don't take Sony as an example.
> Their CIEMs uses the Sonion 2356 for the highs... and it is not the best armature for that register, by far.
> 
> If that 2000$ high-end CIEMs don't use the best armatures available (claimed by BA the manufacturer), it is because they are bad engineered.


 
  
  
 Perhaps.
  
 But I wasn't really discussing Sony in relation to BAs.
  
 I just noticed the unusual coiled-wire-within-sound-tubing approach, that's all. It's sometimes interesting to broaden the discussion to include tertiary aspects of CIEM manufacture, in addition to the core bread-&-butter of BA choice, electrical configuration, passive filter configuration, and shell-creation.
  
 I once owned a silicone CIEM that had several of the silicone soundtubes badly buckled, and I was told it makes no difference to the SQ, which, personally, I do not believe, since the cross-sectional area of the bore will vary under such circumstances.
  
 Although the Sony very probably uses plastic soundtubes, rather than more flexible silicone soundtubes, I can nonetheless see some logic in using a coiled spring-wire inside the tubing, to reinforce it's circular cross-sectional shape. However, I wonder if it might influence the sound a little, too (not necessarily intentionally), given that it might, perhaps, increase 'friction' upon the passage of air through the tubing.


----------



## Xymordos

Wasn't that Sony tube just a spring or some sort inside/outside the tube acting as protection though.
  
 I added some shell faceplates on my mock UERM 
  
  


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


----------



## Silverprout

mython said:


> Perhaps.
> 
> But I wasn't really discussing Sony in relation to BAs.
> 
> ...


 
  
 The anti-pinch spring is located only in the dynamic driver tube, and bass register is not as much affected as the mids/highs by this "tortured sound tube" complex impedance.
  
 Here we can select the best drivers (claimed by the manufacturer) and integrate them perfectly in highly personalized customs... to reach the maximum performance.
  
 Sony try to find an easy and repeatable way to sell customs everywhere on the planet with the minimal technical skills (molded directly by hifi sellers)... to exist on the market.


----------



## Mython

silverprout said:


> Sony try to find an easy and repeatable way to sell customs everywhere on the planet with the minimal technical skills (molded directly by hifi sellers)... to exist on the market.


 
  
 Do you know this for certain?
  
 I find that interesting, if Sony are allowing their product to be made by individual sellers. That would be a heck of a risk for such a big name to take.


----------



## Silverprout

mython said:


> Do you know this for certain?
> 
> I find that interesting, if Sony are allowing their product to be made by individual sellers. That would be a heck of a risk for such a big name to take.


 

 No,
 But the conception seem to privilegiate this theory.
  
 Only two drivers, a wide band armature (why not a tweeter) with a open dynamic driver (why not a closed one for isolation and why not rolled off higher to match a tweeter armature like the 1plus2)
  
 Because they need the widest earcanal impedance range compatibility as possible... to match everyone morphology with a standardized product (very, very, very hard to do...)


----------



## acain

Dose any one here see the point of balanced armature burn in, I hear no changes after hundreds of hours of listening time. I have been following the JH Layla and Angie forums and I am really getting a kick out of everyone stating how much the sound changes after 100+ hours. I could see a slight change maybe after a crap load of hours from metal fatigue, and I mean ALOT of hours.  I have never experienced any changes to my ears with BA's
  
 If this were true an there is a big difference couldn't you measure before and after burn in on a frequency chart and notice a difference?


----------



## Daedalus1116

acain said:


> Dose any one here see the point of balanced armature burn in, I hear no changes after hundreds of hours of listening time. I have been following the JH Layla and Angie forums and I am really getting a kick out of everyone stating how much the sound changes after 100+ hours. I could see a slight change maybe after a crap load of hours from metal fatigue, and I mean ALOT of hours.  I have never experienced any changes to my ears with BA's
> 
> If this were true an there is a big difference couldn't you measure before and after burn in on a frequency chart and notice a difference?


 
 I would bet that the audible differences arise from their brain adapting to the sounds.


----------



## Xymordos

daedalus1116 said:


> I would bet that the audible differences arise from their brain adapting to the sounds.


 
  
 This is quite true actually. Though sometimes the sound does change as dirt or dust builds up in the filters which I have also experienced.


----------



## RealSpark

kellogsx said:


> I received my connectors from Null Audio yesterday, tiny little things  They fit prefectly together, with a little snap and it seems to grip tight.
> 
> But I'm not really sure how to proceed with the pins inside the shell. It's two solid pins, am I just suppose to solder the wires straight on to it or is there any other way I'm supposed to do it?
> On the hollow pins one seems to be colored a bit differently inside, is this only to match the correct wires?




Are they made of plastic or acrylic? I wonder if it will stick to acrylic...


----------



## KeLLoGsX

realspark said:


> Are they made of plastic or acrylic? I wonder if it will stick to acrylic...


 

 I'm not sure, but doesn't all plastics bond with acrylic more or less. Perhaps I'll have to use some bonding between, or some superglue.
  
 My first finished shells are done, some final finishing still to be done but overall I'm really pleased. Great glossy shine, not totally transparent but I'm satisfied. I drilled out the acrylic earpieces to shells, sandblasted them and then used a light curing lacquer to get the final glossy look.


----------



## CMOS1138

daedalus1116 said:


> Can anyone recommend the drivers and filters for a balanced sound with slightly forward mids and airy trebles? I'm currently thinking of using the GKs and maybe a dedicated WBFK for the treble.
> 
> Thanks.


 
 I think you will get rather harsh highs from that combination, you will have dual tweeters since GK already has a WBFK driver. 
  
 try this, CI for base, sunon 3300 for mids, WBFK for high. put a red filter on the CI and a brown filter on the 3300 and a 2.2uf cap on the positive lied of WBFK.
  
 I am working on a similar build using dual CI, my first attempt was a failure though, after I finished assembling it, I discovered that the acoustic tubing on my CI's had collapsed. Perhaps I will take a cue from sony when I rebuild and try inserting springs into the tubing to prevent collapse. It is challenging to cram all these drivers into the shell, especially the dual CI.


----------



## Xymordos

Surprisingly my failures are always from tube leakage. The tubes don't seem to seal well with UV resin so I resort to super glue.


----------



## KeLLoGsX

xymordos said:


> Surprisingly my failures are always from tube leakage. The tubes don't seem to seal well with UV resin so I resort to super glue.


 
 What kind of tubing do you use? I seem to have some trouble finding any specific for audio use. Is it a 2mm inner dia. to be able to fit any damper inside I should be looking for? Perhaps I can get hold of a PVC 2.0/2.7mm (id/od) isolationtube, will it do?


----------



## acain

kellogsx said:


> What kind of tubing do you use? I seem to have some trouble finding any specific for audio use. Is it a 2mm inner dia. to be able to fit any damper inside I should be looking for? Perhaps I can get hold of a PVC 2.0/2.7mm (id/od) isolationtube, will it do?


 

 Look on Westone Hearing Aid supply website you can find any kind of tube there. You can use a small section of bigger tube and put the damper into it then use the smaller tube so it fits on the driver kind of like a coupler.


----------



## Daedalus1116

cmos1138 said:


> try this, CI for base, sunon 3300 for mids, WBFK for high. put a red filter on the CI and a brown filter on the 3300 and a 2.2uf cap on the positive lied of WBFK.



Wouldn't the Sonion 3300 be more suitable for bass, as their frequency goes the lowest?


----------



## CMOS1138

daedalus1116 said:


> Wouldn't the Sonion 3300 be more suitable for bass, as their frequency goes the lowest?




I find that CI has a rumble quality that is unmatched by any other driver but you can easily use them the other way around if you prefer. Also, you will be getting base out of both drivers since I am only using dampers, not a bandpass.


----------



## Xymordos

Has anyone here tried a high frequency driver that they liked more than the ED29689/ 2389?


----------



## Xymordos

daedalus1116 said:


> Wouldn't the Sonion 3300 be more suitable for bass, as their frequency goes the lowest?


 
  
 I thought the CI's graph looked better on the low end?


----------



## genesis88

Has anyone here tried making DIY DAMPERS?


----------



## CMOS1138

genesis88 said:


> Has anyone here tried making DIY DAMPERS?


 
  
 Yes but it didn't work out so well for me. It is nearly impossible to predict the results. Others have done it with better success (I think acain mentioned using custom damping in one of his builds if I remember correctly)


----------



## RealSpark

My recent works. Thanks to the gears I got from my photography hobby. 
 These pictures are taken by my iPad Air 2...under proper lighting setup of course...


----------



## RealSpark

kellogsx said:


> Really nice work! What setup of drivers do you prefer?


 
 I have tried many... most of them are those common conbinations. Like twfk + CI, ED+Dtec+CI, twfk + Dtec x 2 and some TF10 reshell.


----------



## Daedalus1116

I currently have two configurations of drivers, which I don't know which to pick. I'm looking for a neutral sound with airy high and lightly pronounced mids.

Sonion 33A007(3300) + DTEC + WBFK
or
Sonion 33A007(3300) + TWFK

Thanks


----------



## piotrus-g

daedalus1116 said:


> I currently have two configurations of drivers, which I don't know which to pick. I'm looking for a neutral sound with airy high and lightly pronounced mids.
> 
> Sonion 33A007(3300) + DTEC + WBFK
> or
> ...



Go for 3300 and TWFK it will sound so MUCH better


----------



## Daedalus1116

piotrus-g said:


> Go for 3300 and TWFK it will sound so MUCH better


 
 Thanks , do you have any recommendation on dampers?
 Now to find a place to buy 3300 XD.


----------



## MuZo2

You can find some on taobao. Else minimum quantity you have to buy is 25.


----------



## RealSpark

muzo2 said:


> You can find some on taobao. Else minimum quantity you have to buy is 25.


 
 taobao everywhere!


----------



## shakur1996

piotrus-g said:


> Go for 3300 and TWFK it will sound so MUCH better


 

 Why? Isn't it better to have dedicated driver for mids ie DTEC and dedicated driver for highs ie WBFK, than to have one combo ie TWFK?


----------



## Xymordos

muzo2 said:


> You can find some on taobao. Else minimum quantity you have to buy is 25.


 
  
 Taobao's 33A007 are sold out :\ Only have the 33AE011 left...Their 3800s are only available in larger quantities too.


----------



## MuZo2

http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.14.10.sVXGaM&id=40293910524&ns=1&abbucket=11#detail
 http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.14.4.sVXGaM&id=40182777629&ns=1&abbucket=11#detail
 http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.14.47.sVXGaM&id=44163183840&ns=1&abbucket=11#detail


----------



## Xymordos

Most of the ones I asked were out of stock actually, despite them being shown as in stock.


----------



## piotrus-g

xymordos said:


> Taobao's 33A007 are sold out :\ Only have the 33AE011 left...Their 3800s are only available in larger quantities too.


 
 Get 33AE011 then it's only 5 ohm more, the difference pretty much you can dismiss at that point.
  


shakur1996 said:


> Why? Isn't it better to have dedicated driver for mids ie DTEC and dedicated driver for highs ie WBFK, than to have one combo ie TWFK?


 
 pffff it's not that easy to explain but let's put it that way 3300=DTEC (I'm not talking about small sound differences but general response) WBFK is super tweeter that should work with 4-6kHz+ range. preferably in 10kHz+ range.
 TWFK is good for 500Hz-20kHz so you get much more usable range - more natural response.
 DTEC+3300+WBFK will make very big and very V shaped sound with thick midrange, generally dark sounding.
 3300+TWFK will sound open and airy, coherent, there's change for flat tuning or mildly V-shaped tuning. It's easy to handle and good choice for DIY that has no measuring equipment.
  


muzo2 said:


> http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.14.10.sVXGaM&id=40293910524&ns=1&abbucket=11#detail
> http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.14.4.sVXGaM&id=40182777629&ns=1&abbucket=11#detail
> http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.14.47.sVXGaM&id=44163183840&ns=1&abbucket=11#detail


 
 33AL007 - ok, 37AP015 - ok for higher impedance IEMs or 6 driver build, 33AJ007i/9 - ok (even better than 33AL007)


----------



## Xymordos

Does the 3700 series have a noticeable bass boost compared to the 3300 series?
  
 Also, can't the bass drivers be smoothed with resistors? The CI driver smooths really nicely with the 28ohm resistor.


----------



## piotrus-g

xymordos said:


> Does the 3700 series have a noticeable bass boost compared to the 3300 series?
> 
> Also, can't the bass drivers be smoothed with resistors? The CI driver smooths really nicely with the 28ohm resistor.


 
 3700 has 3dB more output. 
  
 resistors make bass quicker in addition to cutting quantity.


----------



## Furco

realspark said:


> My recent works. Thanks to the gears I got from my photography hobby.
> These pictures are taken by my iPad Air 2...under proper lighting setup of course...


 
  
 Care to share how you did the words in red lettering?  That's something that hasn't been shared on this particular forum and might come in handy for future builds.  Nice Work!!


----------



## MuZo2

I think its done with laser printer or engraver.


----------



## Mython

Just as a DIY workaround, couldn't this be done with Letraset transfers, on the inside of the faceplate?
  
 I know that's not perfect, but still... it could work...


----------



## Mython

Anyone feeling brave enough to cram-in 12 drivers?


----------



## piotrus-g

2x 3800 2x 2800 2xTWFK/SWFK nice setup it must be quite big on bass and overall warm sounding.


----------



## shakur1996

piotrus-g said:


> 2x 3800 2x 2800 2xTWFK/SWFK nice setup it must be quite big on bass and overall warm sounding.


 

 Adel 12 of 1964ears supposed to be bass heavy CIEM.


----------



## Mython

piotrus-g said:


> 2x 3800 2x 2800 2xTWFK/SWFK nice setup it must be quite big on bass and overall warm sounding.


 
  
 Joker described his initial thoughts as:
  


> /img/forum/go_quote.gif  "a smooth and neutral earphone with a very slight perceived warm tilt"


 
  
  
  
_BTW, I have no particular allegiance to 1964 - it's only that I find the A12 an interesting design, in various ways._
  
  
 .


----------



## piotrus-g

shakur1996 said:


> Adel 12 of 1964ears supposed to be bass heavy CIEM.


 
  


mython said:


> Joker described his initial thoughts as:
> 
> BTW, I have no particular allegiance to 1964 - it's only that I find the A12 an interesting design, in various ways.


 

 Ha! I just realized that they probably have to compensate for ADEL system


----------



## Mython

piotrus-g said:


> Ha! I just realized that they probably have to compensate for ADEL system


 
  
 Yes, very probably.
  
 Joker did note that sealing the ADEL vent increases the bass but makes it a bit boomy.
  
 Of course, the Roxanne is a 12-driver design, using 3800 drivers, too, and user-adjustable bass level.


----------



## shakur1996

mython said:


> Yes, very probably.
> 
> Joker did note that sealing the ADEL vent increases the bass but makes it a bit boomy.
> 
> Of course, *the Roxanne is a 12-driver design, using 3800 drivers, too, and user-adjustable bass level.*


 
 Peter/others correct me if I'm wrong by A12 uses two separate 3800 drivers and Roxanne uses proprietary 3800 driver which is 2x3800 combined into one driver (i.e. one quadruple driver).


----------



## Furco

I just finished testing on my second Zwislocki coupler prototype.
  
 As most of you know, I'm kind of a data driven person who likes objective measurements when tuning my IEMs.  So a month ago, I built a Zwislocki coupler and did some testing and posted my findings in:  post #3220 
  
 Not happy with my first prototype, I invested in some new tools and got to work re-engineering the coupler.  Here's the result of these efforts:
  

  

  
 I built it out of aluminum with 4 tunable chambers. So the obvious question, "Does this one work any better than my first prototype?"
  
 Let's find out:
  

  
 Here's the breakdown of the graph:
 * Light Blue/Teal - That is a WBFK-30095.  I used that driver to calibrate my coupler.  Here's the FR graph published by Knowles for this same driver:
  

  
 Here's what's similar about the two measurements
 a)  Flat response between 100Hz and 800Hz
 b)  Peak #1 is approximately 20dB higher than SPL at 800Hz
 c)  Peak #2 is at least 15dB higher than SPL at 800Hz
  
 Here's where the differences are:
 a)  The rise in SPL at 1 - 2kHz isn't resolved on my coupler
 b)  Peak #1 is shifted about 500Hz towards the bass region
 c)  Peak #2 is both shifted towards the bass region and is about 5dB lower than the Knowles graph.
  
 One thing to keep in mind is that the Knowles graph was done using an IEC711 + DB2012 Adapter.  The adapter may be giving better resolution of mid-range frequencies which are absent from my measurements.  Or maybe not.  It's most like related to precision engineering of the IEC 711 coupler and the certified calibration.  But the bottom line is that both the Zwislocki and IEC711 are analogs for the human ear and should give fairly similar FR shapes and SPL.
  
 The other lines on the graph are:
 *  Red - my custom "Opus 3.A" cIEM (GQ-30783 + RAB-32257)
 *  Green - UE MetroFi 220
 *  Yellow - UE MetroFi 200
  
 These graphs were generated while playing white noise at 85dB into my Zwislocki coupler.  The MetroFi frequency response, depending on where you look are fairly similar to ones published on the web.
  
 What's missing is a side by side comparison of my two prototypes.  Based on looking at the graphs when I used pink noise with both couplers, I would say that my 2nd prototype has a bit less distortion and the overall quality of the measurement is now improved. 
  
 Overall, I think this was a huge success.  "Did I save money by building my own?"  Like most DIY projects of this complexity, probably not.  Did I have fun and exercise my engineering skills?  Can get a "Hell Yeah!!!" ???
  
 Now back to creating some new cIEMs.  Next on the drawing board is one that's using a dynamic driver.  This one is going to be on the cheap side since I'll be using it for when I'm exercising and really don't know how sweat will impact the durability of the cIEM.
  
 Cheers!!


----------



## piotrus-g

shakur1996 said:


> Peter/others correct me if I'm wrong by A12 uses two separate 3800 drivers and Roxanne uses proprietary 3800 driver which is 2x3800 combined into one driver (i.e. one quadruple driver).


 

 that's correct


----------



## Furco

mython said:


> Anyone feeling brave enough to cram-in 12 drivers?


 
  
 I think I see the kitchen sink in there....


----------



## Daedalus1116

What's the difference between 3300 and 3800 for bass?


----------



## Xymordos

3800 is louder in the lower regions and has a huge vent. If I use the 3800 I'll have to stick resistors on it since the bass is much too boomy for my tastes.


----------



## RealSpark

furco said:


> I just finished testing on my second Zwislocki coupler prototype.
> 
> As most of you know, I'm kind of a data driven person who likes objective measurements when tuning my IEMs.  So a month ago, I built a Zwislocki coupler and did some testing and posted my findings in:  post #3220
> 
> ...


 
 what is this software you used on Mac? I can't find one for my OSX86...


----------



## RealSpark

furco said:


> Care to share how you did the words in red lettering?  That's something that hasn't been shared on this particular forum and might come in handy for future builds.  Nice Work!!


 
 basically you print the picture with normal inject printer on a median called water transfer paper and transfer it to our shell.
 it has white background and transprent background paper. Probably you can find them in your local printer shop. (warning, not heat transfer for T shirt. It may also work, but I don't know if it is a good idea to iron the picture to your shell. You can try)  
 For normal black color words with white color faceplate, you can use the transprent one. So you can see through and show the faceplace. 
 like this. (Some old ones I made last year)

 and the Jomo on the driver, thanks to VE for the idea of logo on driver. 

  
  
  
 If you want to do a full color print, because you don't care about the material of the faceplate, then you can use a white background paper. 
 Like this. (Pictures are actually taken from UE website from their faceplate design...)

  
 For the black one, I used white color paper. If you know why, the you will understand the limitation of do this. 
 All you need is a good inject printer, water transfer paper and a little bit of practice. 
 Cheers.


----------



## Daedalus1116

What gauge wires are people using for connecting drivers and for the actual cable (and how many strands)?


----------



## Silverprout

furco said:


> Let's find out:


 
  
 Hello,
 Your test rig has a problem, the graph response is erratic and the 30095 can't have energy in the lows.
 It's probably electrical, the sound card or the computer software.


----------



## Furco

Are you suggesting there shouldn't be much of anything below 100Hz for the 30095?  If so, I would agree with you and chalk it up to the lack of sensitivity of my entire setup (coupler + audio interface + computer + sound card + etc...).


----------



## Silverprout

furco said:


> Are you suggesting there shouldn't be much of anything below 100Hz for the 30095?  If so, I would agree with you and chalk it up to the lack of sensitivity of my entire setup (coupler + audio interface + computer + sound card + etc...).


 
 computer + sound card is the problem IMHO.
  
 30095 20 to 5K with my setup (1/24 smooting)


----------



## piotrus-g

silverprout said:


> computer + sound card is the problem IMHO.
> 
> 30095 20 to 5K with my setup (1/24 smooting)


 
 The problem is in using noise instead of sine. Trust me on that. @Furco's coupler seem pretty accurate.


----------



## Furco

I'll give it a go with trying to graph it via a sine sweep.  I'm resigned to the fact that if my coupler is accurate between 100Hz - 8kHz, that's really all I could possible ask for in a DIY prototype.  But @Silverprout the fact that your setup shows that  ~20db spike at 4.5Khz makes me smile because that what I see as well.  Also, no "hump" between 1 - 2kHz either.  Granted. it's only around a 3db increase based on the Knowles graph so the fact that it's either been smoothed out or is actually absent is probably inconsequential.
  
 Thanks for the feedback.  I greatly appreciate it.


----------



## Silverprout

furco said:


> I'll give it a go with trying to graph it via a sine sweep.  I'm resigned to the fact that if my coupler is accurate between 100Hz - 8kHz, that's really all I could possible ask for in a DIY prototype.  But @Silverprout the fact that your setup shows that  ~20db spike at 4.5Khz makes me smile because that what I see as well.  Also, no "hump" between 1 - 2kHz either.  Granted. it's only around a 3db increase based on the Knowles graph so the fact that it's either been smoothed out or is actually absent is probably inconsequential.
> 
> Thanks for the feedback.  I greatly appreciate it.


 
 i want you to succeed !
  
 ARTA can't smooth less than 1/24... and the spike is at 4.8K an 5K on your Knolwes Graph 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			








 oupssss... for the IEC711 accuracy !
  
 Here is my knolwes the catalog graph :


----------



## Xymordos

You really can't compare to that graph though, the peak shifts with different tubes length, material, and diameter.


----------



## Silverprout

xymordos said:


> You really can't compare to that graph though, the peak shifts with different tubes length, material, and diameter.


 

 They have differents measurements protocols... depending on the weather 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
 i'm joking...
  
 Now we need two couplers to measure our CIEMS... The 711 is dead... new kid in town.
  
 http://www.gras.dk/43ba-1.html
  
 http://www.gras.dk/ra0045.html


----------



## Silverprout

Now we can immagine that all CIEMs measurements are inacurate.
  
 And try to re-measure all of them ?
  
 And re-think about all comments about the treble quantity ?
  
  
 LOL


----------



## Silverprout

The 30095 has only one big spike around 5K... and now you know why i use RLC snubbers to kill spikes, instead of inefficient crossovers.


----------



## Mython

silverprout said:


> The 30095 has only one big spike around 5K... and now you know why i use RLC snubbers to kill spikes, instead of inefficient crossovers.


 
  
  
 Can you spare a minute to educate me, please?
  
 What is an RLC snubber _(in the context of the CIEM world)_?
  
 Thanks


----------



## Silverprout

mython said:


> Can you spare a minute to educate me, please?
> 
> What is an RLC snubber _(in the context of the CIEM world)_?
> 
> Thanks


 

 It is my "personal word" for the RLC circuit dampers.
  
 I like the word... good sound 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 http://www.nxp.com/documents/application_note/AN11160.pdf


----------



## Furco

silverprout said:


> i want you to succeed !
> 
> ARTA can't smooth less than 1/24... and the spike is at 4.8K an 5K on your Knolwes Graph
> 
> ...


 
  
 Okay, now you're just showing off...


----------



## Mython

From the EarWerkz Penta thread:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/751424/the-earwerkz-penta-ep-5-discussion-thread/75#post_11426388
  


shotgunshane said:


> And it has a blurb about the Penta's bass secret sauce:
> 
> "...the Penta features 5 acoustic bores in the ear canal with *dual resonance chambers* (patent pending) to deliver bass unlike ever heard before in a CIEM."


 
(emphasis added by me)
  
  
 Any thoughts?


----------



## Xymordos

I remember a low pass acoustic filter is a narrow tube with larger chambers along the way, so the Penta probably has acoustic low pass for its bass drivers.


----------



## Silverprout

If you add a resonator after the transducer and the transducer is making a boom, the resonator add a boom.

Instead of hearing only one boom, you ear boom boom...


----------



## Silverprout

This is exactly that i try to avoid with my designs (uncontrolled and artificial resonances).
  
 I’ve worked really hard on the damping of the dynamic driver, the rear chamber is closed and the acoustic filters (it is simplified a lot) only act on the decay.
  
 You can modify the bass quantity by adjusting the bass decay time without modify the sound signature… the frequency response stay absolutely the same with all filter adjustments.
  
*Power is nothing at all without control.*


----------



## MuZo2

I made a IEM and it sound perfect on some recordings. Beautiful imaging and staging and nice tonal balance.
 But on other hand some of albums sound totally crap. (They sound ok with other iems like gr07, vsd5)
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 So its 50/50 at the moment.


----------



## Daedalus1116

muzo2 said:


> I made a IEM and it sound perfect on some recordings. Beautiful imaging and staging and nice tonal balance.
> But on other hand some of albums sound totally crap. (They sound ok with other iems like gr07, vsd5)
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Perhaps it is revealing those albums' mastering flaws. After all, these BA drivers are much higher quality than those in GR07, VSD5.


----------



## MuZo2

But its like two extreme ends. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




   
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
 So on some recordings it sounds lot better than W4, W3 , TF10 and SE530
 But on other it total crap.


----------



## Mython

mython said:


> From the EarWerkz Penta thread:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/751424/the-earwerkz-penta-ep-5-discussion-thread/75#post_11426388
> 
> ...


 
  
  


xymordos said:


> I remember a low pass acoustic filter is a narrow tube with larger chambers along the way, so the Penta probably has acoustic low pass for its bass drivers.


 
  
  
  
 That's a peculiar coincidence, considering our very recent exchange, just a few days ago.
  
http://www.head-fi.org/t/430688/home-made-iems/3390#post_11391757


----------



## Xymordos

That's what I said before isn't it?


----------



## Silverprout

All the requied theory is here :


----------



## piotrus-g

silverprout said:


> All the requied theory is here :


 

 That's brilliant!


----------



## Mython

Careful - I think there may be a patent on that bottle label, so you probably can't post a picture of it, in case someone assumes you're infringing it, and starts demanding damages and/or royalties


----------



## Daedalus1116

Is UV nail gel still unsafe for skin contact after it is cured?


----------



## Silverprout

mython said:


> Careful - I think there may be a patent on that bottle label, so you probably can't post a picture of it, in case someone assumes you're infringing it, and starts demanding damages and/or royalties


 

 Oh no what i've done !
 I'm sorry.


----------



## Mython

silverprout said:


> Oh no what i've done !
> I'm sorry.
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


 
  
  
 Actually, no, it's OK. I realised my schoolboy error.
  
 It turns out, it's OK to post the picture you posted, previously, and to post the picture above, just as long as you don't post 2 identical pictures together, side by side, and operate them in-tandem, within a certain frequency range.
  
 Sorry for any confusion


----------



## Silverprout

mython said:


> Actually, no, it's OK. I realised my schoolboy error.
> 
> It turns out, it's OK to post the picture you posted, previously, and to post the picture above, just as long as you don't post 2 identical pictures together, side by side, and operate them in-tandem, within a certain frequency range.
> 
> Sorry for any confusion


 
  
 I really don't know what you are taling about !


----------



## Furco

mython said:


> From the EarWerkz Penta thread:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/751424/the-earwerkz-penta-ep-5-discussion-thread/75#post_11426388
> 
> ...




To be honest, this sounds like a lot more trouble than it's worth: bass resonance chambers. Based on some quick reading about resonance chambers, a "lag" is produced which may affect sound quality. Not only that, it sounds like a massive amount of tuning is required just to: a) get it to work as expected and b) mitigate the negative consequences of such designs.

Then again what do I know? It might be as easy as putting something like a pre-manufactured "T" adapter inline with the sound tube for balanced armatures.


----------



## Furco

mython said:


> Actually, no, it's OK. I realised my schoolboy error.
> 
> It turns out, it's OK to post the picture you posted, previously, and to post the picture above, just as long as you don't post 2 identical pictures together, side by side, and operate them in-tandem, within a certain frequency range.
> 
> Sorry for any confusion




You must have been a sarcastic lawyer in a previous life @Mython


----------



## Mython

furco said:


> You must have been a sarcastic lawyer in a previous life @Mython


 
   
  
  
  
 I'll let Silverprout answer that one on my behalf:
  
  
 Quote:


silverprout said:


> I really don't know what you are talking about !


----------



## Silverprout

furco said:


> You must have been a sarcastic lawyer in a previous life @Mython


 

 Yes, but he's right... the law is the law.


----------



## Silverprout

mython said:


>


 

 Now you know me !


----------



## Mython

Hopefully, it turns out to be nothing more than a temporary glitch in the CIEM Matrix


----------



## Silverprout

mython said:


> Hopefully, it turns out to be nothing more than a temporary glitch in the CIEM Matrix


 
  
 What a fight !


----------



## Mython

silverprout said:


> Now you know me !


----------



## Silverprout

mython said:


>


----------



## Silverprout




----------



## Mython

OK, I think we'd better get back on-topic...
  
  
 I know this sounds crazy, but has anyone tried prototyping CIEMs from DAS Pronto modelling clay?
  
 I don't know how much it shrinks, during curing, though.


----------



## Silverprout

mython said:


> OK, I think we'd better get back on-topic...
> 
> 
> I know this sounds crazy, but has anyone tried prototyping CIEMs from DAS Pronto modelling clay?
> ...


 

 Yes, we are not living in Disneyland... we are not Toons.
  
 And, yes the nail UV gel is toxic after curing


----------



## Silverprout

silverprout said:


> Yes, we are not living in Disneyland... we are not Toons.
> 
> And, yes the nail UV gel is toxic after curing


 

 Bottle of water have a expiration date... because of the toxic material migration from the plastic bottle.
  
 EVEN WATER BOTTLES ARE TOXIC,  in the long term.


----------



## Daedalus1116

Does anybody has 3D model of universal IEM shells? I would like to try making shells by printing in either PLA or ABS then polishing it.
 Thanks in advance.


----------



## phantomore

you know what screw it, I am just going to make my own CIEM.
  
 I already ordered one, but I just want to start the journey of making CIEMs.


----------



## phantomore

Wow!, as Iook though all the messages, I am really, really wanting to design my customs.
  
 I have a few questions though.
  
 For the shelling, how do you guys have the gradual like color change for the canal and the body? and also how doy ou apply the gold particles into the body it self? I think I can do it for the faceplate, as my friend who is in the business tells me that is easy to, but I dont get howthey manage to have the gold in the body it self?

 Trying to replicate something like this....
  
 I am totally new to this shelling and diy CIEM thing, I really dont get anything... lol
  
 Can anyone contact me if they would like to help me? I can help with other things as a return, like Graphic designs, Web design, ETC. (I run a  Design Firm)
  
 Please I need help


----------



## phantomore

I mean noble audio's skill on making those awesome designs are just amazing... I can look at wizard's works for hours and i will still be amazed.
  
 I love the trys in the pearl &swirl finish, and I really love it!
  
 I saw some done by Furco, but cant seem to find the post again. AGHHH... someone please help me before i explode!
  
 I am going though the pages and all it does is just make me fall in to a deeper hole of just curiosityyyyyyy aghhh


----------



## Mython

phantomore said:


> I saw some done by Furco, but cant seem to find the post again. AGHHH... someone please help me before i explode!


 
  
  
 An easy way to find a post with a picture is to click on _any_ picture in this thread (but must be a picture that is not part of a quote), and then, when it has enlarged, click on the 'Gallery View' icon which will be visible above the enlarged picture. You can then browse all the pictures that have ever been posted in the thread, and when you click on one, to enlarge it, you will see, above the enlarged image, not just the 'Gallery View' icon, but also some text with a link to the original post within which that image was originally uploaded. So, just as an example, if I click on the Noble pic you posted, above, then I can see that it is Image 445 of 445 (from post #11437282).
  
  
  
 BTW, there is also a 'Gallery' box in the upper righthand of many thread pages, but if, like me, you use an ad-blocker, that box may not be visible, in which case, the first option I described will still work.
  
  
 Hope that makes sense.


----------



## phantomore

mython said:


> An easy way to find a post with a picture is to click on _any_ picture in this thread (but must be a picture that is not part of a quote), and then, when it has enlarged, click on the 'Gallery View' icon which will be visible above the enlarged picture. You can then browse all the pictures that have ever been posted in the thread, and when you click on one, to enlarge it, you will see, above the enlarged image, not just the 'Gallery View' icon, but also some text with a link to the original post within which that image was originally uploaded. So, just as an example, if I click on the Noble pic you posted, above, then I can see that it is Image 445 of 445 (from post #11437282).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Wow what a tip! I guess I dont have to look though 255 pages to find pictures now! Wow!


----------



## phantomore

I found it!
  
 how does he do the swirl finish?


----------



## ariessales

It's hydrographics. You need the hyrographics film, the activator, and the fotoplast to top coat it. Then voilà!


----------



## acain

You can use nail gel also my kids do it just make sure its acrylic nail gel, lots of you tube videos.


----------



## phantomore

Wow, I really need to just Make my own... does anybody have an actuall guide? I have looked at many and they dont seem to help


----------



## phantomore

so... wait do you guys make ciem with an hollow shell? I am completely lost....
  
 so how does it all work?


----------



## Daedalus1116

There's a guide in Furgo's signature, have a look at that.


----------



## acain

Some make hollow shells some make solid shells then mill them out. There is a 235 page guide right here we have all read it and you have to take what you can from it and make it your own. There isn't a step by step guide every one has there own take on it. It's a long learning process but it's fun and very rewarding in the end when you can hear what you created. Don't get discouraged from your first try I can guarantee it's not going to come out what you were hoping for. Every shell you make will look better and better and will sound better and better. It is a process you can not rush or cut corners.


----------



## phantomore

Furco's guide seems very good. Ans so detailed, I will spend my time and have a look over it! Thanks guys!


----------



## phantomore

Ok guys, as a help to the community, I will try to make a easier to read version of the Compelete guid made by Furco!


----------



## phantomore

I dont know if chris will like it though, will email him to make sure.


----------



## briancortez2112

Cranking them out


----------



## KeLLoGsX

briancortez2112 said:


> Cranking them out


 
  
 It's awesome to see all finished works, looked at a couple yesterday and was thinking that a great idea for all aspiring pupils of this thread would be to share as much as possible of the builds. Such as:
  
 * Pictures
 * Mold/Shell materials
 * Drivers
 * Filters/caps/res.
 * Tubing
 * Cabling
 * Connectors
 * Sound signature
 * etc...
  
  
 ... and everything else that makes it a custom build. That way it's easier to compare future builds. We could make some sort of template with all necessary info and tag it with a specific phrase to find it easier.


----------



## phantomore

Awesome result, How do you "print" the logo in black?


----------



## jrubins

> briancortez2112 said:
> 
> 
> > Cranking them out
> ...


 
 Someone needs to make an instructable on how to do this.


----------



## Furco

phantomore said:


> Ok guys, as a help to the community, I will try to make a easier to read version of the Compelete guid made by Furco!


 
  
 What do you mean make it easier to read??  I thought it was perfect.  lol.....
  
 Just kidding.
  
 There are a few DIY guides out on web.  The key to remember is use what you can get in terms of supplies and develop a process that works based on your skills.  I've published a very doable design that sounds pretty fantastic called the Opus 3 (post #2642)  The hardest part for sure is learning to create shells, thought creating shells isn't the only place you can start.  Some people create solid IEMs and then hollow them out with a rotary tool and lots of patience.


----------



## Furco

briancortez2112 said:


> Cranking them out


 
  
 You're doing such a good job, the admins on Head-Fi are going to flag you as a man in the industry like piotrus-g!


----------



## Daedalus1116

How do people make universal shells? I want to try printing it out before making out of acrylic.


----------



## acain

daedalus1116 said:


> How do people make universal shells? I want to try printing it out before making out of acrylic.


 
 You can take a universal you have already and make a negative mold, or form one out of clay and keep working the shape.


----------



## Daedalus1116

acain said:


> You can take a universal you have already and make a negative mold, or form one out of clay and keep working the shape.



The problem is that I only have a Hifiman RE-400, so I can't make a mold out of that.


Does anybody has a 3D scanner?


----------



## briancortez2112

furco said:


> You're doing such a good job, the admins on Head-Fi are going to flag you as a man in the industry like piotrus-g!


 
 Thanks Furco! that means a lot!


----------



## CMOS1138

Nice one Brian, I particularly like the way you handle the connector, I have never been fully satisfied with any of my connectors.  Do you make your own cables or do you use pre-assembled cables? Dito for the connector, are you using a pre-made 2 pin connector?
  


briancortez2112 said:


> Cranking them out


----------



## piotrus-g

furco said:


> You're doing such a good job, the admins on Head-Fi are going to flag you as a man in the industry like piotrus-g!


 

 well it doesn't work that way, if mods flag you it's too late  so my advise is that if you are going to make it even the smallest part of your income better notify admins and get the MOT status
 Nevertheless perfect build @briancortez2112


----------



## RealSpark

Looks like everyone is going towards pro now. 
 Here are mine


----------



## RealSpark

kellogsx said:


> Wow! Amazing, can you tell some more about them, drivers, filters, crossovers, tubing, cableing, connectors, sound impressions etc? It will be helpful for all of us...


 
 The basic are all in the DIY IEM documents. I am sure if you study that carefully, you can make some awesome IEM. The design are just from your creative ideas and practice.


----------



## phantomore

furco said:


> What do you mean make it easier to read??  I thought it was perfect.  lol.....
> 
> Just kidding.
> 
> There are a few DIY guides out on web.  The key to remember is use what you can get in terms of supplies and develop a process that works based on your skills.  I've published a very doable design that sounds pretty fantastic called the Opus 3 (post #2642)  The hardest part for sure is learning to create shells, thought creating shells isn't the only place you can start.  Some people create solid IEMs and then hollow them out with a rotary tool and lots of patience.


 
 HAHAH its perfect in the content side, but as a designer i felt it was too harsh to read, so I ambascially doing a book design. and printing one for my self.


----------



## phantomore

sdg1855 said:


> Best.... Thread... Ever.


  

  
 I really like how this guy only has 2 post, but his one post was talking about how great this post it.


----------



## Furco

phantomore said:


> HAHAH its perfect in the content side, but as a designer i felt it was too harsh to read, so I ambascially doing a book design. and printing one for my self.


 
  
  
 To be honest I created the DIY guide as a way to study this thread and organize the content for my own self interests. Reading it and this thread should give you everything you need to start building your own.  Or, if you're wired like me, re-write/re-organize the DIY guide so you can wrap your head around the different aspects of cIEM design and there is definitely a lot to consider. Once you have a good foundation, it's time to put it to use.  Nothing takes the place like actually trying to build something and seeing the many pitfalls that need to be overcome.  But once you do, you won't make the same mistakes twice......usually.


----------



## CMOS1138

I am in the process of reworking my most difficult build to date. 2x CI + 3300 + WBFK
  
 The Dual CI drivers take up a ridiculous amount of space and I have had to do a lot of planing just to figure out how to fit all this into the shell.
  
 Currently I am trying to figure out how to make sure none of my tubes bend too far and collaps. I originally merged the CI tubing together into one tube but this joint takes up a lot of space and is rigid resulting in more extreme tubing bendis and collapses.  I have switched over to Heat Shrink tubing so that I can fit 4 tubes into the ear canal but on my most recent attempt to fit the drivers into a shell, one of the tubes collapsed again. I may need to order some #16 tubing to use on the CI's but I am so close to completing the build I hate to have to wait for another shipment.


----------



## acain

cmos1138 said:


> I am in the process of reworking my most difficult build to date. 2x CI + 3300 + WBFK
> 
> The Dual CI drivers take up a ridiculous amount of space and I have had to do a lot of planing just to figure out how to fit all this into the shell.
> 
> Currently I am trying to figure out how to make sure none of my tubes bend too far and collaps. I originally merged the CI tubing together into one tube but this joint takes up a lot of space and is rigid resulting in more extreme tubing bendis and collapses.  I have switched over to Heat Shrink tubing so that I can fit 4 tubes into the ear canal but on my most recent attempt to fit the drivers into a shell, one of the tubes collapsed again. I may need to order some #16 tubing to use on the CI's but I am so close to completing the build I hate to have to wait for another shipment.


 

 I had the same problem the thinner tubing works great and it fits perfect on the CI nozzle. I have small ear canals and was using 3 tubes and couldn't get a triple bore in the nozzle. So I had the 3 tubes going right at the beginning of the canal portion of the shell  and made one big bore then backfilled with acrylic were all the tubes met up.


----------



## CMOS1138

acain said:


> I had the same problem the thinner tubing works great and it fits perfect on the CI nozzle. I have small ear canals and was using 3 tubes and couldn't get a triple bore in the nozzle. So I had the 3 tubes going right at the beginning of the canal portion of the shell  and made one big bore then backfilled with acrylic were all the tubes met up.




I love that idea. I will see if I can get it to work for me. 

I didn't think of doing it that way because the tubes do fit, but this could really solve the problem.


----------



## acain

cmos1138 said:


> I love that idea. I will see if I can get it to work for me.
> 
> I didn't think of doing it that way because the tubes do fit, but this could really solve the problem.




Its kind of like a rigged manifold I have done many builds with 3 or 4 tubes just going to the beginning of the canal part into 1 big bore. Instead of using acrylic to seal the back portion up you can back fill it with almost anything just so sound doesnt leak out. I have used putty and pushed it in to seal it and it work fine.


----------



## Daedalus1116

Are you all using UV acrylic from Dreve, Egger? I'm looking for alternatives as I can not get these in my country.


----------



## tranhieu

back to the basics. IMO you learn more about acoustical tuning when working with 1 driver designs than multifold ones.


----------



## acain

tranhieu said:


> back to the basics. IMO you learn more about acoustical tuning when working with 1 driver designs than multifold ones.


 
 Nice work what driver is that? One of my favorite ear buds uses one driver the Final Audio AKR01.


----------



## tranhieu

The old good 2354.


----------



## MuZo2

Wow nice work on those shells.


----------



## tranhieu

Thanks. It's just a test one waiting to be scrapped later though.


----------



## MuZo2

Are they printed or done traditional way?


----------



## tranhieu

The conventional way. 3D printing isn't my forte.


----------



## Xymordos

Hey got a question. You know how there's a left over solder pad when you connect your CI22955? What happens if you remove the pad and leave the hole open?
  
 I accidentally left the hole open once and it gave a huge bass response. I couldn't find what's wrong for a long time until I saw the hole and close it up with solder. I wonder if leaving it open would sound good...


----------



## tranhieu

The hole acts as an acoustic vent. There's a 4-6db bump when such vent is opened on the CI. Personally I don't like it.


----------



## Xymordos

I'm more concerned if the distortion will jump up like the 3800 series or the HODVTEC. Vented bass does sound nice, and the extra bass can be tamed by resistors. Though I guess if I have to use resistors there's no point in venting it.
  
 Thanks for your help


----------



## tranhieu

The problem is, CI's notoriously long bass decay will be much longer when they're open vented and ncreasing damping doesn't help much.


----------



## Xymordos

But when you stick a 28ohm resistor on it like the UERM, the bass decay doesn't seem to be that long. The HODVTEC has a super long bass decay though. It felt very muddy if I only use a damper on it and no resistors.


----------



## Furco

Blue Marble - single Sony XBA driver.


----------



## acain

Wow those are beautiful.


----------



## piotrus-g

xymordos said:


> Hey got a question. You know how there's a left over solder pad when you connect your CI22955? What happens if you remove the pad and leave the hole open?
> 
> I accidentally left the hole open once and it gave a huge bass response. I couldn't find what's wrong for a long time until I saw the hole and close it up with solder. I wonder if leaving it open would sound good...



It acts like venting.



xymordos said:


> I'm more concerned if the distortion will jump up like the 3800 series or the HODVTEC. Vented bass does sound nice, and the extra bass can be tamed by resistors. Though I guess if I have to use resistors there's no point in venting it.
> 
> Thanks for your help


 yes, distortion will increase from vented driver


----------



## Mython

piotrus-g said:


> It acts like venting.
> yes, distortion will increase from vented driver


 
  
  
 But can that kind of distortion be reduced by doubling or quadrupling the number of bass drivers, so as to reduce the per-driver excursion requirement for any given equivalent SPL?


----------



## Furco

So here's a question: does anyone have a method, trick, or sure fire way of making sure the nozzle of your IEM is pointing at your ear drum and not being blocked because it's partially facing the inner wall of your ear?


----------



## tranhieu

furco said:


> So here's a question: does anyone have a method, trick, or sure fire way of making sure the nozzle of your IEM is pointing at your ear drum and not being blocked because it's partially facing the inner wall of your ear?


 
  
 Don't cut the canal tips too close to the 2nd bends, if possible before cutting take a careful look at the impresisions especially the past 2nd bend part angle.
 Assuming you're working with acrylic, when drilling bores try to picture how and where the drivers will be placed inside later. What you want to achieve is to drill holes that run parrallel to the ear canals to prevent sound from bouncing agaisnt your ears too much once it exits the IEM.


----------



## piotrus-g

mython said:


> But can that kind of distortion be reduced by doubling or quadrupling the number of bass drivers, so as to reduce the per-driver excursion requirement for any given equivalent SPL?


 

 yes you can but it will increase bass response 6dB for every same driver in the same range so 2 CI would be probably max you could use probably


----------



## phantomore

furco said:


> Blue Marble - single Sony XBA driver.


 
  
  
 Such a beautiful work. Someone should make a shelling guide to all the artwork tips and tricks and method. and combine it with the existing guide we have now.


----------



## Mython

piotrus-g said:


> yes you can but it will increase bass response 6dB for every same driver in the same range so 2 CI would be probably max you could use probably


 
  
 Yeah, so just double-up all the drivers for mid, treble, etc., as well.
  
 Hey, it's only money! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 (I realise it's not quite that simple 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)


----------



## piotrus-g

mython said:


> Yeah, so just double-up all the drivers for mid, treble, etc., as well.


 
 I'm pretty sure you'll see some like that tomorrow with gazillion drivers 
  
  
 aka. 1st April.


----------



## Silverprout

mython said:


> Yeah, so just double-up all the drivers for mid, treble, etc., as well.


 
  
 And boost the intermodulation distortion on the whole band


----------



## KeLLoGsX

Now I need some help...
  
 I'm ready to hook it all up with internal wires. I got the CI+TWFK and can't figure out where to solder which cable, how do I know which solder pads are +/- or doesn't it matter? I can't find any schematic at knowles site describing anything. I did find som scheme over the TWFK in the thread gallery but nothing on CI. 
  
 Some pictures would be great...


----------



## Mython

silverprout said:


> And boost the intermodulation distortion on the whole band


 
  
  
 Now _that _sounds like a USP!


----------



## piotrus-g

kellogsx said:


> Now I need some help...
> 
> I'm ready to hook it all up with internal wires. I got the CI+TWFK and can't figure out where to solder which cable, how do I know which solder pads are +/- or doesn't it matter? I can't find any schematic at knowles site describing anything. I did find som scheme over the TWFK in the thread gallery but nothing on CI.
> 
> Some pictures would be great...


 

 send me your email address via PM I will send you my open source design for CI+TWFK


----------



## Silverprout

mython said:


> Now _that _sounds like a USP!


 
  
 Yes, Silverprout is the Ultimate Sound Professor


----------



## acain

@Silverprout I know you used dynamic drivers in some of your builds, have you ever used 2 dynamic drivers ever?


----------



## Silverprout

acain said:


> @Silverprout I know you used dynamic drivers in some of your builds, have you ever used 2 dynamic drivers ever?


 
  
 Two 13mm dynamic drivers will never fit my ears.
 And one of this driver per ear is sufficient to blow off my tympans at the 1/10 of their max excursion capability, more is probably too much.


----------



## NuBreed

I have those drivers, all new. Anyone can tell me something about them? Shure se530/535 (the big ones) ?


----------



## Daedalus1116

nubreed said:


> I have those drivers, all new. Anyone can tell me something about them? Shure se530/535 (the big ones) ?


 
 The one from Shure's has a Sonion 33A007 and 2300, according to this: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jguxmYfEmZdHEGIUDvQUnfm3vhxo51WeNKKG0_oRtMA/pub?gid=1


----------



## NuBreed

daedalus1116 said:


> The one from Shure's has a Sonion 33A007 and 2300, according to this: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jguxmYfEmZdHEGIUDvQUnfm3vhxo51WeNKKG0_oRtMA/pub?gid=1


 
 Can you reckongnize from what earphones are mine? I want to sell them to a custom iem maker or a diy fan and need to estimate their value.


----------



## Silverprout

nubreed said:


> Can you reckongnize from what earphones are mine? I want to sell them to a custom iem maker or a diy fan and need to estimate their value.


 
  
 http://www.lunashops.com/goods.php?id=3246


----------



## NuBreed

@Silverprout : THX. The smaller units seems to be from se425.. Anyone interested in buying whole package?


----------



## grushaaa

Hello guys. I visited the site sonion and looked brochure Sonion Product Overview 2015. There was a new driver which is not represented in the receiver list is 26-E25WT02/9. Does anyone have an opportunity to get a driver specifications and frequency response? And could someone explain what the meaning column "headroom" it's meant size of driver or something else


----------



## Silverprout

grushaaa said:


> Hello guys. I visited the site sonion and looked brochure Sonion Product Overview 2015. There was a new driver which is not represented in the receiver list is 26-E25WT02/9. Does anyone have an opportunity to get a driver specifications and frequency response? And could someone explain what the meaning column "headroom" it's meant size of driver or something else


 
  
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headroom_%28audio_signal_processing%29


----------



## MuZo2

Looks like competition to TWFK


----------



## Silverprout

muzo2 said:


> Looks like competition to TWFK


 

 TWFK combined with ED or RAB is better IMHO, because you can adjust independently the response of each driver by changing the acoustic dampers.
  
 The amount of treble can't be adjusted perfectly to your taste...


----------



## grushaaa

Sonion 2600 used in sleek audio sa6, klipsch x10, x11, myst nail 1,2,3, audio technica ath im01, custom art harmony 8. For my taste it is much musical than knowles twfk, and if add tweeter will not worse than shure 846. I think there is a prospect this solution has.


----------



## Silverprout

grushaaa said:


> Sonion 2600 used in sleek audio sa6, klipsch x10, x11, myst nail 1,2,3, audio technica ath im01, custom art harmony 8. For my taste it is much musical than knowles twfk, and if add tweeter will not worse than shure 846. I think there is a prospect this solution has.


 

 It's a point of view.


----------



## Daedalus1116

Noble audio's Wizard's newest creation.
WOOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWW!!!


----------



## MuZo2

Fitear factory tour. Shows how digital ciem are made


----------



## acain

Cool video thanks!


----------



## acain

They use the same stereolithograph printing like UE. I think all companies will go to this some day just because of the accuracy of it and they can really put any kind of bore or manifold system built right into the shell.


----------



## acain

I one day plan to build a diy stereolithograph printer in my shed someday I have the curing lamp already from my mom's old DLP  TV.


----------



## briancortez2112

Completed Today


----------



## Furco

Quote of the week: "I just wanted something that seriously shake your brain."

Congrats, piotrus-g - you guys have been seriously busy over at the CA.


----------



## Furco

briancortez2112 said:


> Completed Today




eh....I think you forgot to put in the filters unless you want your customer to use the case as a rattle box or something. Lol..

You're super consistent in your design. Looks like you have thinks dialed in!


----------



## Daedalus1116

briancortez2112 said:


> Completed Today



What did you use for making the shells?


----------



## acain

briancortez2112 said:


> Completed Today


 
 Did you use Foto Plast for the shell looks great. When you going to start selling them on Etsy LOL you can have your own boutique shop.


----------



## briancortez2112

acain said:


> Did you use Foto Plast for the shell looks great. When you going to start selling them on Etsy LOL you can have your own boutique shop.


 
 Thanks, i did use the fotoplast for these 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.... lol my wife uses Etsy all of the time!


----------



## briancortez2112




----------



## MuZo2

Does ported BA drivers depend on shell for tuning? se535 for example.


----------



## piotrus-g

muzo2 said:


> Does ported BA drivers depend on shell for tuning? se535 for example.


 

 A bit


----------



## NuBreed

Still Have some BA sets from SE530/535 and SE420/425 for remold... Anyone interested?


----------



## MuZo2

piotrus-g said:


> A bit


 

 So does shell size matter? SE535 remold sounds different?


----------



## NuBreed

The heighs are bit better, and a low end i better cause of better seal of customs.


----------



## piotrus-g

muzo2 said:


> So does shell size matter? SE535 remold sounds different?


 it will sound different mainly because there are no universal tips in custom IEM, tube and shell material also will be different. Air volume behind driver also matters, to a certain degree, but considering that shure shell is small and custom IEM has lots of air inside, bass will be bigger in custom


----------



## RealSpark

piotrus-g said:


> it will sound different mainly because there are no universal tips in custom IEM, tube and shell material also will be different. Air volume behind driver also matters, to a certain degree, but considering that shure shell is small and custom IEM has lots of air inside, bass will be bigger in custom


 
 Well in these drivers sound more like dynamic drivers in some way then. The HOVDETC and the 38AJ007Mi/8a from Sonion all are vented.


----------



## RealSpark

Got a free pair of tf 10 drivers from a friend. Reshelled and added 1 driver to a TF10 x4 instead. Tried with some new shell design, gold and silver foil. 



  
 And some other I made. 



  
 TGIF


----------



## CMOS1138

I have been getting really frustrated trying to get my dual CI + 3300 + WBFK build put together, the spacing is so tight that every time I get it all crammed into a shell one of my solder points breaks and I have to take it all out and start over. 
  
 In order to take a break from this overreaching project I decided to follow in the footsteps of Furco and combine GQ and RAB. Furco raved about the sound quality he was able to get out of the combination and I have been curious to hear it for myself. I am happy to report that he was right, these drivers are a beautiful combination and work very well together. I saved a few bucks on the build by harvesting the GQ drivers from some ADDIEMs I got off ebay for $30, this works out perfectly because I didn't have to use any dampers as a result (the ADDIEM variant of GQ sounds like it has a brown damper built in) The base slam that comes out of the tiny little RAB driver is quite surprising and I will probably work it into other builds in the future.


----------



## briancortez2112

cmos1138 said:


> I have been getting really frustrated trying to get my dual CI + 3300 + WBFK build put together, the spacing is so tight that every time I get it all crammed into a shell one of my solder points breaks and I have to take it all out and start over.
> 
> In order to take a break from this overreaching project I decided to follow in the footsteps of Furco and combine GQ and RAB. Furco raved about the sound quality he was able to get out of the combination and I have been curious to hear it for myself. I am happy to report that he was right, these drivers are a beautiful combination and work very well together. I saved a few bucks on the build by harvesting the GQ drivers from some ADDIEMs I got off ebay for $30, this works out perfectly because I didn't have to use any dampers as a result (the ADDIEM variant of GQ sounds like it has a brown damper built in) The base slam that comes out of the tiny little RAB driver is quite surprising and I will probably work it into other builds in the future.


 
 I have made a pair that have 2 RAB drivers in each ear and the bass is very good but it is too mid heavy for me and the highs need a little bump..... overall, not a bad sounding cheap little IEM


----------



## FARfromHOME

Used dry rub-off decal paper.
 Will printed colours fade over time?


----------



## Mython

farfromhome said:


> Used dry rub-off decal paper.
> Will printed colours fade over time?


 
  
  
 Unfortunately, yes, they will. Applying a protective UV lacquer may slow the fading process a bit, if you can find an appropriate one, but fading will inevitably occur with inks.
  
 However, I suppose it would not be too difficult to slice the faceplate off, replace the printed images, and re-glue the faceplate, without damaging the rest of the CIEM, so it's not the end of the world if the images fade over the course of a couple of years - in fact, after a couple of years, you may wish to build an upgraded CIEM, anyway!


----------



## Furco

cmos1138 said:


> I have been getting really frustrated trying to get my dual CI + 3300 + WBFK build put together, the spacing is so tight that every time I get it all crammed into a shell one of my solder points breaks and I have to take it all out and start over.
> 
> In order to take a break from this overreaching project I decided to follow in the footsteps of Furco and combine GQ and RAB. Furco raved about the sound quality he was able to get out of the combination and I have been curious to hear it for myself. I am happy to report that he was right, these drivers are a beautiful combination and work very well together. I saved a few bucks on the build by harvesting the GQ drivers from some ADDIEMs I got off ebay for $30, this works out perfectly because I didn't have to use any dampers as a result (the ADDIEM variant of GQ sounds like it has a brown damper built in) The base slam that comes out of the tiny little RAB driver is quite surprising and I will probably work it into other builds in the future.




I still get impressed with how clear and beautiful GQ + RAB sounds from time to time. It's a great triple!

It's funny that you mentioned you needed to take a break from one if your overreaching builds because that's exactly what happened to me when I decided to build the Opus-3. 

Cheers Mates!


----------



## Furco

farfromhome said:


> Used dry rub-off decal paper.
> Will printed colours fade over time?




Wow! Those turned out really well. Super clean!


----------



## acain

Great job to every one we need a couple people from this DIY to build some 3 ways and have others do a blind test up against companies 3 ways. I bet the DIYers will give them a run for there money.


----------



## RealSpark

acain said:


> Great job to every one we need a couple people from this DIY to build some 3 ways and have others do a blind test up against companies 3 ways. I bet the DIYers will give them a run for there money.


 
 we need to make sure compare with the same drivers. there are many  ways to make a 3 ways.


----------



## Furco

realspark said:


> we need to make sure compare with the same drivers. there are many  ways to make a 3 ways.


 
 Or maybe set a budget.  "Best & Cheapest 3-way" Contest?  That would give everyone serious flexibility to use whatever they want and configure it however they want.  I'm a little less inclined to think that there are a dozen different ways to configure a GQ+RAB or a CI+TWFK.  And then there's the challenge of who's going to do the comparison and how are we going to get them to send us their ear molds?  Otherwise, we'd have to agree on a universal shell.  
  
 This might be an interesting way to spark some innovation.


----------



## acain

I think it could be a start for a company called H-F DIY Customs.


----------



## acain

There is enough of us that all bring something different to the table I think we could be very successful.


----------



## Xymordos

I made a revision of the 7 driver universal earlier, and tried to tame the SWFK peak as much as possible - didn't work out that well. Was better than the previous version where the SWFK and the GR drivers both boosted the 5-6k peak making it huge. This time the treble is still peaky but it sounds and looks better. But the sound is quite warm and mellow. The bass is soft and doesn't hit that hard, but extends quite deep. Can't tell much about the treble, but the mids are very detailed which I like with pop music. 
  
 Drivers are: CI22955, 33AE011, GR31587, SWFK31736
  
  
  


Spoiler: Measurement



 (I forgot what button to take the screenshot again...) Note: Yellow and Green lines are left and right earpieces.


----------



## piotrus-g

xymordos said:


> I made a revision of the 7 driver universal earlier, and tried to tame the SWFK peak as much as possible - didn't work out that well. Was better than the previous version where the SWFK and the GR drivers both boosted the 5-6k peak making it huge. This time the treble is still peaky but it sounds and looks better. But the sound is quite warm and mellow. The bass is soft and doesn't hit that hard, but extends quite deep. Can't tell much about the treble, but the mids are very detailed which I like with pop music.
> 
> Drivers are: CI22955, 33AE011, GR31587, SWFK31736
> 
> ...


 
 You have some phase issues in it IMHO.
 Also you should consider using damper on 3300 and Ci - you don't want peak at 1,5kHz but at 2kHz which should be place where GQ works.
 You could also wire 3300 in series and add some low pass filtering


----------



## Xymordos

Yeah I changed the GR driver to parallel wiring, which made it go weirdly in phase with the rest of the drivers. But it makes it a very nice tweeter, rather than a midrange/tweeter before. 
 I couldn't fix the phase probably due to the 3300 mixing with the GR. 
  
 I didn't have space for any dampers as the shell wasn't big enough unfortunately...Gonna order some custom humongous sized universal shells next time.
  
 Always have room for improvements next time! 
  
 Edit: There are actually low pass filters for the CI and the 3300, but the peak is still there unfortunately...
  
 Edit2: Can I just use a bigger diameter tube for the low drivers to shift the peak up?


----------



## Furco

xymordos said:


> Edit2: Can I just use a bigger diameter tube for the low drivers to shift the peak up?


 
  
  
 Or you could try using a horn as that may improve the response of your high freqs.   But considering space is an issue, I'm not sure you'll be able to get away with trying to integrate one into your build.  
  
 For your phase issues, how many tubes are you using?  Are any of your drivers sharing tubes?


----------



## Xymordos

Space isn't an issue for the tubes actually. It's just that the shells I have are quite shallow and I can't stick a CI driver in the shell vertically (hope this makes sense...). I can fit a horn in it next time actually, it's just that this time I didn't have the right diameter tubes for it.
  
 I'm using three tubes, one for CI , one for 3300, and one for the SWFK+GR31587 - the GR31587 is defaulted to series, but i broke that default connection and connected it in parallel, giving it some very nice treble extension. It seems to be able to be used as a super tweeter in parallel connection.


----------



## MuZo2

Where did you get swfk and whats the price for pair?


----------



## Xymordos

muzo2 said:


> Where did you get swfk and whats the price for pair?


 
 From Mouser, at an very expensive price...


----------



## briancortez2112

White / Black with Skin tone faceplates 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 Knowles GK Drivers with appropriate dampers..


----------



## acain

briancortez2112 said:


> White / Black with Skin tone faceplates :tongue_smile:
> 
> Knowles GK Drivers with appropriate dampers..




Wow you are really pumping them out we need pictures of your uv chamber.


----------



## piotrus-g

briancortez2112 said:


> White / Black with Skin tone faceplates
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 NIce. Friendly advice, right connector should be higher


----------



## briancortez2112

piotrus-g said:


> NIce. Friendly advice, right connector should be higher


 
 Yep, it could have been up a bit 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, or i could just blame it on the ears... lol
 Thanks for the advice!


----------



## Furco

Does anyone want to help contribute to a pro's and con's list for 2-pin vs Mmcx connectors? 

I'm a huge fan of Mmcx because:
- 360 degrees of rotation
- High amount of force to disengage the plug
- One single standard, in other words, universal compatibility regardless of manufacturer.
- available in 90 degree bend as well as straight
- 500 reconnect cycles before failure of materials
- corrosion resistant due to being made of brass.
- Being made of brass gives it some "bling" factor.
- cost; I can get 10 male plugs for under $10. Female jacks are a little more expensive but not much.

Okay, now some con's:
- because these connectors are made for coaxial cable, wiring them can be a little complicated when using normal headphone wire.
- potential "dead zones" between plug and jack. In other words, it is possible in some situations, that turning your head a certain way will result in loosing a signal in the earphone. Not sure how frequently this might happen but I know for a fact that it can happen.
- could require some extensive reconstruction of a custom shell in order to install it because of its large size? Given I have no experice with 2-pin connectors nor their size relative to a Mmcx, this is just an observation about mmcx connectors which may be also true for 2-pin. When installing them in my customs, I usually find myself saying "Jesus!! That's a big hole! And it still doesn't fit right??!"

Cheers!!


----------



## Furco

Random post: Driving up the east coast this evening, I was daydreaming that I won the lottery, quit my job, and hired a few of you to start a cIEM company. Acain must be planting subliminal messages in my head.


----------



## acain

"That's a big hole! And it still doesn't fit right??!" that's sounds like a personal problem but after years of abuse the whole and so many insertions the whole just gets really sloppy. I prefer MMCX over 2-pin, the 2-pins I have used have always been a problem taken them off and on. And you can easily bend the pins, they also become very loose after there broken in.


----------



## Furco

acain said:


> "That's a big hole! And it still doesn't fit right??!" that's sounds like a personal problem....




Yeah, I guess I set myself up for that one. Well played...


----------



## acain

furco said:


> Random post: Driving up the east coast this evening, I was daydreaming that I won the lottery, quit my job, and hired a few of you to start a cIEM company. Acain must be planting subliminal messages in my head.


 

 Wow this is know lie I was day dreaming at work today about winning the lottery and thinking what I would do with the money. And first though was to open a custom company with a couple guys form the forum. But after a couple years we would get into portable amps and dacs. Furco this is are destiny it has to mean something everyone make sure you play the lottery this week!!!!!!!


----------



## acain

And I live on the East coast in PA right on the boarder of PA and NJ. I can see the sign now DIY East Coast Custom Audio. We can offer a walk in service and have a 2 day turn around for a small fee.


----------



## Furco

acain said:


> And I live on the East coast in PA right on the boarder of PA and NJ. I can see the sign now DIY East Coast Custom Audio. We can offer a walk in service and have a 2 day turn around for a small fee.




"2 day turn around" -- I can see piotrus-g falling out of his chair laughing. That would require a good stock of drivers sitting on the shelf and a bit of magic to go from ear molds to shells in less than a day. The manpower to do that on a commercial scale would need to be pretty large. But, hey? Dream big or go home, right?


----------



## acain

furco said:


> "2 day turn around" -- I can see piotrus-g falling out of his chair laughing. That would require a good stock of drivers sitting on the shelf and a bit of magic to go from ear molds to shells in less than a day. The manpower to do that on a commercial scale would need to be pretty large. But, hey? Dream big or go home, right?


 

 Ok 2 day turn around for specific models we will have the drivers wired and tubed and they will just have to installed and trimmed. And we won't be using negative molds it will all be 3D scanned and sent to a high RPM 5-axis mill and will be milled out of a solid block of acrylic or carbon fiber to cut down on manufacturing time.


----------



## acain

Remember we just won 40 million dollars we are going state of the art.


----------



## Furco

acain said:


> Remember we just won 40 million dollars we are going state of the art.




Yeah, I forgot about being a millionaire. Can't get out of my thousandaire thinking. 

But I get the sense that cnc'ing a block of acrylic isn't going to save that much time since the entire process will require hi-res scanning, programming, cutting, then extensive sanding and polishing? Compare that to making a negative, pouring/curing the acrylic.


----------



## tranhieu

Once your technique is perfect enough, shell making can be done (that includes waxing, making negative mould, moulding, grinding, drilling) in half an hour. Not that much difference compared to 3d tech I might say.
  
 The only drawback I can see here is that conventional method is more labor intensive, which is a big minus when you want to go full throttle.


----------



## MuZo2

furco said:


> Yeah, I forgot about being a millionaire. Can't get out of my thousandaire thinking.
> 
> But I get the sense that cnc'ing a block of acrylic isn't going to save that much time since the entire process will require hi-res scanning, programming, cutting, then extensive sanding and polishing? Compare that to making a negative, pouring/curing the acrylic.


 

 Thats true, I have done both and it takes more time for digital process. But I am not a pro so there was learning experience on both accounts.


----------



## piotrus-g

For 40 million you guys could buy some existing company, and simply impose your ideas over it. Use the rest 30 to go on nice vacations  it's so much easier and cost effective


----------



## RealSpark

piotrus-g said:


> For 40 million you guys could buy some existing company, and simply impose your ideas over it. Use the rest 30 to go on nice vacations  it's so much easier and cost effective


 
 For one second, I thought I was in a wrong thread...Anyway, you guys made a good story.


----------



## RealSpark

How did they take picture of the IEM without using bluetak to make them stand?  
 Any trick?


----------



## Mython

realspark said:


> How did they take picture of the IEM without using bluetak to make them stand?
> Any trick?
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


 
  
 It would be very easy to digitally remove the blutac, using Adobe Photoshop


----------



## Daedalus1116

realspark said:


> How did they take picture of the IEM without using bluetak to make them stand?
> Any trick?



Nice, what are you using to color the acrylic?


----------



## RealSpark

daedalus1116 said:


> Nice, what are you using to color the acrylic?


 
 Those small bottle of acrylic dye you buy from your local art friend store.


----------



## Furco

Furco secret for coloring acrylic and keeping transparency:



Works like a charm!!


----------



## Mython

furco said:


> Furco secret for coloring acrylic and keeping transparency:
> 
> 
> 
> Works like a charm!!


 
  
  
 I presume that stuff is water-soluble, or it might denature the acrylic.
  
 What about UV resilience of the dye? If it's intended for food, I wouldn't expect it to have much UV resistance...


----------



## Furco

mython said:


> I presume that stuff is water-soluble, or it might denature the acrylic.
> 
> What about UV resilience of the dye? If it's intended for food, I wouldn't expect it to have much UV resistance...


 
  
 All excellent questions of which I have no answers:  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 What I can tell you is that based on my primitive tests, the food coloring doesn't impact the strength of the cured acrylic and it does NOT bleed when the cured acrylic is handled.  And yes, since the food coloring is water soluble, so is the acrylic resin I'm using, apparently.  When mixed, it's not like an (oil+water) solution but more like an (alcohol+water) solution.
  
 But here's the honest truth, most of the customs I'm making aren't using a translucent faceplate so I don't necessarily see the need for UV resistance.  Also, I'm a big believer in first impressions so as long as something looks excellent the first few times I see it, I start caring about how it looks less and less as long as it functionally continues to excite me as it did the first day I got it.  Some would call this the "Honeymoon-Is-Over" phase.  Don't get me wrong, I like things brand new just like everyone else, but once I pop the cIEMs in my ears, I'm not concerned about how they look anymore.  
  
 I'm going to go out on a limb here and say the reason I'm making these kinds of statements is because if I do find I fall out-of-love with a particular design I used, I'll just dismantle it and make a new set using the next flavor of the week.  Also, I have absolutely no idea how well my cIEMS are going to hold up to normal wear-and-tear.  If I still have my first pair of Opus 3's eighteen months from now and actively using them and haven't developed some sort of medical malady because of materials I used, I'll consider it a major success on many levels.


----------



## CMOS1138

furco said:


> Furco secret for coloring acrylic and keeping transparency:
> 
> 
> 
> Works like a charm!!


 
  
 I like this idea, I think I will give it a go for my next build. Even if it is not all that UV stable, I don't often wear my IEMS outside so the most UV light they are exposed to is during construction and than very little after that. I have been getting OK results with a few drips of opaque colors mixed with clear uv resin but the clarity is not a good as I would like.


----------



## CMOS1138

furco said:


> Does anyone want to help contribute to a pro's and con's list for 2-pin vs Mmcx connectors?
> 
> I'm a huge fan of Mmcx because:
> - 360 degrees of rotation
> ...


 
  
 I switched to MMCX because I hate having my IEM's detach from the cable by accident all the time. The down side to MMCX is that I find it much harder to solder to the closely spaced pins on the back of the connector during construction, with 2 pin connectors I can use 2 separate connectors and then join them together with a little UV resin after I have all my wires soldered on. Given the choice of 2 frustrations, I prefer to go with the option that gets the annoying bit out of the way up front instead of dealing with it constantly on the back end.


----------



## Furco

cmos1138 said:


> I like this idea, I think I will give it a go for my next build. Even if it is not all that UV stable, I don't often wear my IEMS outside so the most UV light they are exposed to is during construction and than very little after that. I have been getting OK results with a few drips of opaque colors mixed with clear uv resin but the clarity is not a good as I would like.


 
  
 These were made with red and blue neon to make purple.


----------



## acain

Furco it looks like you have a lot of bottles of Viagra in the background just kidding nice work. Ever think about a pot to control the bass like JH Sirens?


----------



## Furco

acain said:


> Furco it looks like you have a lot of bottles of Viagra in the background just kidding nice work. Ever think about a pot to control the bass like JH Sirens?




Those are an older set I made for my son. I just wanted to show what the food coloring looked like when used to make shells.

As far as the plethora of Viagra bottles, I toss and turn a lot when I sleep and the last time I fell out of bed and almost got a concussion. Now my wife gives me the little blue pill so I stop rolling out of bed. Works like a charm. Haven't fallen out since! 

I use a 1 - 100 ohm pot when prototyping. I wish there were variable capacitors that worked just as well. For now anyway, bass usually isn't something that I find I need to tame in my configurations. Also, all of the testing I've done with N-way crossovers has been hit or miss. But I actually haven't done any retesting after making my coupler. It might be time to dust off the breadboard and have at the 6 driver I was trying to develop.


----------



## Mython

furco said:


> As far as the plethora of Viagra bottles, I toss and turn a lot when I sleep and the last time I fell out of bed and almost got a concussion. Now my wife gives me the little blue pill so I stop rolling out of bed. Works like a charm. Haven't fallen out since!


 
  
 Ahhh... memories of youth - I used to wake up 'in a tent', every morning! (still do, sometimes, but not so often, _alas_...) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
  


furco said:


> I use a 1 - 100 ohm pot when prototyping. I wish there were variable capacitors that worked just as well. For now anyway, bass usually isn't something that I find I need to tame in my configurations. Also, all of the testing I've done with N-way crossovers has been hit or miss. But I actually haven't done any retesting after making my coupler. It might be time to dust off the breadboard and have at the 6 driver I was trying to develop.


 
  
  
 Since you mentioned breadboards, I suppose it would, conceivably, be possible to rig a bunch of very-small-value capacitors on a breadboard, and incrementally try them in various combinations. Not as convenient as having a 'variable capacitor' within a finished, sealed, CIEM shell, I admit...


----------



## briancortez2112

Teal Sparkle


----------



## acain

briancortez2112 said:


> Teal Sparkle


 
 Nice the case matches your going to be a member of the trade soon LOL. You should try the Linum Bax cables, there so thin they disappear. They have to be the most comfortable cables ever.


----------



## RealSpark

furco said:


> These were made with red and blue neon to make purple.


 
  
 I have tried something like this last year. The color will fade through time. Till this year. I think it left only 30% of the color.


----------



## Xymordos

I've gotta say...the sound from Sonion drivers are so warm and enjoyable. Just the right warmth too, and not sluggish at all. Knowles drivers sounds so harsh in comparison.


----------



## Furco

Where are you sourcing your Sonion's from?  Purchasing in bulk isn't something I can justify.


----------



## piotrus-g

xymordos said:


> I've gotta say...the sound from Sonion drivers are so warm and enjoyable. Just the right warmth too, and not sluggish at all. Knowles drivers sounds so harsh in comparison.


 
 Depends on driver, some are basically the same but Sonion has very distinguishable sound indeed.


----------



## RealSpark

piotrus-g said:


> Depends on driver, some are basically the same but Sonion has very distinguishable sound indeed.


 
 I really want to try some Sonion but the 100 pcs MOQ is really a obstacle...


----------



## RealSpark

Embrace the pearl. This is actually made a for a dude...


----------



## Joey-chow

Great job!!!


----------



## TrSConc

Hi all, seeking a little advice. I'm wanting to make a simple setup using the GK driver and adding a secondary driver as a super low or just to compliment the CI of the GK.
I am considering the vented RAB but haven't heard many people using them yet, or using dtec and just piggy backing them to the CI crossover or finally just adding a second CI-30050 with no XO but using a yellow or orange damper. 
What would be the best out of these or would there be a better setup?
Any advice would be much appreciated.


----------



## Silverprout

realspark said:


> I really want to try some Sonion but the 100 pcs MOQ is really a obstacle...


 
  
 We can organize a group buy ?


----------



## RealSpark

silverprout said:


> We can organize a group buy ?


 
 Yes, we could. But it will be difficult to handle the international shipping tough...I'm based in Singapore by the way.


----------



## Silverprout

Not a problem with air shipping (3 days max).


----------



## RealSpark

silverprout said:


> Not a problem with air shipping (3 days max).




Ok. I'm OK with it. I can take 20 to 30 PCs per model. 3300,3800, 2300.


----------



## Silverprout

Who's gonna organize it ?


----------



## Silverprout

PS : Not me... i'm happy with Knowles drivers


----------



## RealSpark

silverprout said:


> PS : Not me... i'm happy with Knowles drivers




I can do that. I have sonion sales people contact and quote already.


----------



## piotrus-g

realspark said:


> I really want to try some Sonion but the 100 pcs MOQ is really a obstacle...


 
 That sucks. I have 25pcs MOQ in Europe.
  
  


trsconc said:


> Hi all, seeking a little advice. I'm wanting to make a simple setup using the GK driver and adding a secondary driver as a super low or just to compliment the CI of the GK.
> I am considering the vented RAB but haven't heard many people using them yet, or using dtec and just piggy backing them to the CI crossover or finally just adding a second CI-30050 with no XO but using a yellow or orange damper.
> What would be the best out of these or would there be a better setup?
> Any advice would be much appreciated.


 
 CI-30050 has too low impedance. Use 22955 or 22960.


----------



## TrSConc

piotrus-g said:


> That sucks. I have 25pcs MOQ in Europe.
> 
> 
> CI-30050 has too low impedance. Use 22955 or 22960.


thanks, so making it a dual CI would be the best approach?


----------



## piotrus-g

trsconc said:


> so making it a dual CI would be the best approach?


 
 why? unless you want to wire them in series,
  
 30050 has 9,5 Ohm DC 46Ohm @1kHz wired in series will get closer to 22955 which has 20Ohm DC and 68 Ohm @1kHz. Yet still you may want to put resistor on CI-22955.
  
 Wiring in series is very "power hungry" for DAPs.


----------



## MuZo2

silverprout said:


> We can organize a group buy ?


 

 Thats not allowed here.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/a/group-buys


----------



## piotrus-g

muzo2 said:


> Thats not allowed here.
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/a/group-buys


 


> In general, group buys and group builds (of DIY products) are not allowed,* except for hard-to-obtain DIY parts *or special DIY one-offs (such as circuit boards). These still require permission from an admin before they can be approved, however.


 
 I would say 100pcs per order ARE "hard to obtain" parts. All you have to do is contact administrator and get approval and if don't get it, well... at least you tried.


----------



## Xymordos

It says DIY products are not allowed. Sonion drivers are not DIY products but branded and trademarked goods which should not get restricted.


----------



## MuZo2

How did you interpret that?
  
 "In general, *group buys* and group builds (of DIY products) are not allowed, *except* for hard-to-obtain* DIY parts* or *special DIY one-offs* (such as circuit boards). These still require permission from an admin before they can be approved, however. "


----------



## Xymordos

Heh read the first part "*group buys* and group builds (of DIY products) are not allowed" and skipped the second. I guess it's meant to be interpreted as group buy as a whole is not allowed except select cases rather than group buys of and builds of DIY products are not allowed.


----------



## MuZo2

Unless Massdrop arranges it


----------



## Xymordos

Is the Knowles GR a similar version of the Sonion E50D? They seem to look the same size wise and measurements wise.


----------



## Furco

realspark said:


> Embrace the pearl. This is actually made a for a dude...




Some well intentioned advice - You need to put some contrast in your pictures. Showing us white/clear cIEMs on a white background doesn't allow us to fully appreciate your work. But from I can see, they look excellent.


----------



## piotrus-g

xymordos said:


> Is the Knowles GR a similar version of the Sonion E50D? They seem to look the same size wise and measurements wise.


 

 No. GR is similar to E90D and E50D is similar to GD


----------



## Xymordos

piotrus-g said:


> No. GR is similar to E90D and E50D is similar to GD


 
  
 Oh, thanks! I would have thought 4400 and GD looked the same haha. Are there any adverse effects breaking their original connections and connecting them in parallel instead?


----------



## piotrus-g

xymordos said:


> Oh, thanks! I would have thought 4400 and GD looked the same haha. Are there any adverse effects breaking their original connections and connecting them in parallel instead?


 

 4400 is smaller than WBFK.
 You won't be able to change GD wiring. There's PCB-like path created on the driver so even if you remove solder it's still connected - I've tried that. Plus I think GD drivers are connected in parallel by default.


----------



## Xymordos

piotrus-g said:


> 4400 is smaller than WBFK.
> You won't be able to change GD wiring. There's PCB-like path created on the driver so even if you remove solder it's still connected - I've tried that. Plus I think GD drivers are connected in parallel by default.


 
 Oh no, I was talking about the GR. But its good to know about the GD too. However the GD is too expensive to get my hands on them...minimum order of 14.


----------



## phantomore

muzo2 said:


> Unless Massdrop arranges it



 


Didnt massdrop drop UE's for like 699


----------



## phantomore

After using CIEMS for awhile its such a fuss, i think i will stick with UIEMs out and about.


----------



## phantomore

wait is it a problem with fit when your ears like hurt after you take the off and off like 10 times. like i take them off often to hear my suroudning, and the motion of it turning and bending my ear shape is just hurting me... any ideas. maybe ciems arn't my thing? stuck with se535??????


----------



## RealSpark

phantomore said:


> wait is it a problem with fit when your ears like hurt after you take the off and off like 10 times. like i take them off often to hear my suroudning, and the motion of it turning and bending my ear shape is just hurting me... any ideas. maybe ciems arn't my thing? stuck with se535??????




I never had fitting issue with the customs I made for myself...


----------



## RealSpark

Some new builds. 
 It is very difficult to make silicon things. Too soft to buff...And it get hot easily...


----------



## RedTwilight

Looove the smoke black and chrome faceplate.


----------



## MuZo2

What silicone are you using?


----------



## acain

@RealSpark Nice work on all of them I was wondering the same thing what durometer is the silicone your using, I haven't  made any in a while I guess I need to order some more acrylic and drivers.


----------



## piotrus-g

Make larger bores for those silicone tips - 5mm otherwise you'll get muffled sound


----------



## RealSpark

I used egger


----------



## RealSpark

piotrus-g said:


> Make larger bores for those silicone tips - 5mm otherwise you'll get muffled sound


thanks for the comment


----------



## RealSpark

muzo2 said:


> What silicone are you using?


Egger


----------



## RealSpark

piotrus-g said:


> Make larger bores for those silicone tips - 5mm otherwise you'll get muffled sound




What if the ear canal is not big enough for 5mm bore?


----------



## Mython

realspark said:


> What if the ear canal is not big enough for 5mm bore?


 
  
 Drill your ears


----------



## kaywee23

realspark said:


> Egger


Where do you get the silicon in singapore?


----------



## Shiikamaru

ok, guys, need advice on how you guys are sculpting the ear impression. cant get mine to fit comfortably in my ears all the time...


----------



## RealSpark

kaywee23 said:


> Where do you get the silicon in singapore?


 
 from hearing aid company. they only see in bulk...


----------



## RealSpark

shiikamaru said:


> ok, guys, need advice on how you guys are sculpting the ear impression. cant get mine to fit comfortably in my ears all the time...


 
 you should watch the youtube video. Again again and again...


----------



## Furco

shiikamaru said:


> ok, guys, need advice on how you guys are sculpting the ear impression. cant get mine to fit comfortably in my ears all the time...


 
  
 Experience....
  
 The last set of cIEMs I made for myself (blue marble) had numerous defects:
 1)  The nozzles aren't aligned properly with my eardrum. They appear to be pointed more towards the wall of my inner ear.  The effect is that the sounds do not converge in the center of my head.  The image seems to be leaning to the right and somewhat forward (towards my right eye?)  if that makes any sense whatsoever.  This mistake was made by drilling the bore without referencing the ear molds and making a poor assumption about where my eardrum was in relation to the plain of the concha.
  
 2)  I purposefully enlarged the tip of the nozzles with extra acrylic in order to improve the seal but ended up enlarging them too much.  The seal is good and isolation from ambient noise is very good but in some respects, too aggressive.  There isn't pain but certainly noticeable pressure.  Personally, the ideal fit would be one where you loose the sense that you're even wearing cIEMS but isolation from ambient noise remains good, all this, while in motion.  For example, walking down the street or maybe even climbing stairs with your cIEMs in shouldn't result in changes to the seal and isolation level.
  
 I'll chalk both of these mistakes up to learning how NOT to do something.  It's not a big deal because the cIEMS I made only contained a single Sony XBA driver and I use them for exercising where critical listening isn't my primary concern.  Also there wasn't a massive amount of R&D time to build them so I may just end up taking them apart and creating a new set.
  
 If the entirety of your cIEMs don't fit and it's not just the seal with the inner ear, then there is a possibility that your ear mold actually shrunk prior to creating your shells.  Based on some information I read on other forums, ear molds are good for about 2 months before they start to loose accuracy.  I definitely had this happen to me during some of my earlier experimenting.  One set of shells I made from older ear molds would probably fit a 10 year old.  I was very surprised by that and had to change my ear molding process.


----------



## RealSpark

quadkiller said:


> Wow interesting thread. Subscribe.


 
 This threads marks all the mild stone of custom iem industry history. you better subscribe and be part of the history.


----------



## MuZo2

or Future


----------



## RealSpark

muzo2 said:


> or Future


 
 Yes of course. Here is where the brainstorm and the inspiration of innovation comes from.


----------



## jared basshead

Ok so what driver combination and how many would give the low end of fx850 and sparkle of fx850 and warm mids of 850 too, lol.


----------



## Silverprout

jared basshead said:


> Ok so what driver combination and how many would give the low end of fx850 and sparkle of fx850 and warm mids of 850 too, lol.


 

 Two CI22955 with one WBFK30095


----------



## Xymordos

Warm mids will probably with the Sonion 3300 series


----------



## MuZo2

jared basshead said:


> Ok so what driver combination and how many would give the low end of fx850 and sparkle of fx850 and warm mids of 850 too, lol.


 

 fx80 driver with same internal cavity on front and back and same port. You can try a wooden ciem.


----------



## jared basshead

silverprout said:


> Two CI22955 with one WBFK30095 :wink_face:



Thanks, well I need to say something first before I talk about the drivers, man some awesome job back there with the binaural hybrid of yours. It looks, how do I put it, sick bro. Not that I doubt the sound coming from the unit.

How about I use a Lear NSS unit along with other BAs too for my first home made diy iem?

Seriously though what you did, what I saw(on NSS thread), not only one needs some serious skills but patience and tenderness to handle such small yet out of the world beautiful things, way to go sir.

Regards 
Jared


----------



## jared basshead

xymordos said:


> Warm mids will probably with the Sonion 3300 series



Isn't that the driver that was used in BA200? I hope I'm wrong.


----------



## MuZo2

BA200 uses 1723 _AcuPass_ drivers


----------



## jared basshead

muzo2 said:


> fx80 driver with same internal cavity on front and back and same port. You can try a wooden ciem.




I wish we could just say that to a machine and he outputs that in few seconds, lol.

imagine we take the The Flint Lockwood Diatonic Super Mutating Dynamic Food Replicator, or FLDSMDFR which needs water as the only feed only this time it makes ciem of individual preferences FOR FREE. 

On a serious note, what if we crack open the jvc s and take the measurements and use the dd by placing on new ciem house with calculated cavity. All we need is a laser caliberated dimensifier to propose the 3d modelling of the cavity.

PS on a more serious note, I'll just put the friggin ddriver along with WBFK30095 and TWFK duals totaling to triple ba and 1 dd hybrid and either with some serious awesomeness of dumb luck this creature will eat Sony ciems for breakfast and doesn't even fart till the next or my cat will eat a ciem again only this time I'll force her to eat myself.

P.S S - this line shouldn't even exist, post script and post script script, this abbreviation should be taken care of, should be wiped out throughout the forum, eaten, where's my cat.

PSSS forgive me for crapping the thread.


----------



## jared basshead

muzo2 said:


> BA200 uses 1723 _AcuPass_ drivers



Is it made by sonion?


----------



## MuZo2

jared basshead said:


> Is it made by sonion?


 
 Google


----------



## Xymordos

Yes it's made by sonion.
  
 You can actually buy the FX650 drivers (or what looks like the 650 drivers) off taobao, haha.


----------



## jared basshead

muzo2 said:


> Google



Forgive my ignorance and of course always gimf.
Well I am new to this various drivers thread, reading this thread have changed my thoughts and perspective marginally towards the working of BAs. 
Anyway I have BA200 and I don't like it much which is why I wished the drivers to be not same.


----------



## jared basshead

That's nice, supposing they're cheap if they start selling some more drivers then we can experiment in safe zone.


----------



## squambug

I have slowly been reading and working on my first project (single ED to start out) but have run into a couple problems.  
  
 1. Soldering small litz wire to mmcx connectors really sucks. I think I got it, but it was not fun.  - I need to improve my soldering skills.
  
 2. With the metal casing on the drivers, I would assume it is critical to solder the wires solely on the pads and not let it short out on the casing.  Comments?  Any pictures of your good soldering skills to the drivers?  Any good pictures of strain relief as well....since that seems like it will be another challenge that I am going to face.
  
 3. I started to test my setup (plugged into an mp3 player) and noticed that at about 1/2 volume, one of the drivers pop and start to hiss.  If I reduced the volume to 1/4, in 3 seconds it would go back to normal...until I turned it back up again   I am thinking that my 'short' soldering time was too long and I fried this driver.  Can anyone confirm if I have fried it?
  
 Also, I used a multimeter to make sure that I had connections and there were no shorts across anything.


----------



## RealSpark

squambug said:


> I have slowly been reading and working on my first project (single ED to start out) but have run into a couple problems.
> 
> 1. Soldering small litz wire to mmcx connectors really sucks. I think I got it, but it was not fun.  - I need to improve my soldering skills.
> 
> ...


 
 the pad is the place where you should solder of course. but i think the driver case is isolated as stated on the datasheet. 
 there are many reason the driver will hiss... i have seen a few times. normally what i did was.... change a new one...


----------



## squambug

realspark said:


> the pad is the place where you should solder of course. but i think the driver case is isolated as stated on the datasheet.
> there are many reason the driver will hiss... i have seen a few times. normally what i did was.... change a new one...


 

 good, it's isolated...didn't see that detail.
  
 I am assuming I would need to replace it...just trying to check though.


----------



## RealSpark

Well sometime ago I got a "open source" 3 drivers design from Piotrus-g. It was a TWFK 30017 + CI 22955. 
 Thanks to Piotus-g's sharing. 
  
 I finally got sometime to make it this week. So I made it. 
 I didn't follow his instruction about the tubing 100% so I end up with a little bit trouble. 
 The bass and the mid is great, but the high is......is too high. sometime it is painful...
 I think the reason is I used too short tube for the twfk and the horn nozzle made it worse I guess.. 
 Any comments?


----------



## RealSpark

squambug said:


> good, it's isolated...didn't see that detail.
> 
> I am assuming I would need to replace it...just trying to check though.


 
 I remember I saw it somewhere on the datasheet. but I couldn't find it now....... maybe I am wrong...


----------



## Silverprout

realspark said:


> I didn't follow his instruction about the tubing 100% so I end up with a little bit trouble


----------



## RealSpark

piotrus-g said:


> Actually if you solder to the pad and to the housing you're not going to have sound. Or very very low level of sound. So the pad is the only place where the solder should be.
> 
> Oh! It's so nice to hear that someone here did try it
> Use higher ohm damper - 1500 green preferably, that should do the trick. Alternatively you can try to wire FK and WBFK drivers separately with different caps, you'd have to re-wire polarity of CI though.




It seems the cap I used is not big enough. Will ma ke another when I'm free.


----------



## THAudio

hi all... i'm a beginner. 
 i will make a dual driver IEM from ED29689 + white damper and CI22955 + red damper, can you give me any suggestion cross over for this configuration?
 Thanks all


----------



## piotrus-g

thaudio said:


> hi all... i'm a beginner.
> i will make a dual driver IEM from ED29689 + white damper and CI22955 + red damper, can you give me any suggestion cross over for this configuration?
> Thanks all


 

 fullrange for CI and 3.3-1uF for ED full coil. That's the easiest you can do. 10-16mmx2mmID tube for ED, 16-22mmx2mmID for CI.


----------



## Furco

thaudio said:


> hi all... i'm a beginner.
> i will make a dual driver IEM from ED29689 + white damper and CI22955 + red damper, can you give me any suggestion cross over for this configuration?
> Thanks all


----------



## Silverprout

"My two cents"
  
 ED29689 (full coil) : 0.22µF in serie with white or grey damper... and 6mm of  Ø1.5mm tube with a Ø2.5mm termination of 3mm length (horn loading=filter at 3mm of the tube end.)
 CI22955 : 10ohm in serial with white damper... and 10mm of  Ø1.5mm tube with the filter at 2-3mm of the tube end.
  
 ... very fun sound


----------



## piotrus-g

silverprout said:


> "My two cents"
> 
> ED29689 (full coil) : 0.22µF in serie with white or grey damper... and 6mm of  Ø1.5mm tube with a Ø2.5mm termination of 3mm length (horn loading=filter at 3mm of the tube end.)
> CI22955 : 10ohm in serial with white damper... and 10mm of  Ø1.5mm tube with the filter at 2-3mm of the tube end.
> ...


 
 Pretty good, but 0.22uF that's like 10kHz cut-off.


----------



## Silverprout

piotrus-g said:


> Pretty good, but 0.22uF that's like 10kHz cut-off.


 
  
 I don't like the 29689 highest notes...


----------



## FARfromHOME

Has anybody noticed difference between ceramic and tantalum? Some people insist on using tantalum?


----------



## Silverprout

"Tantalum capacitors are polarized components by the manufacturing principle and may only be operated with DC voltage in correct polarity. Reverse voltage or ripple current higher than specified can destroy the dielectric and thus the capacitor."


----------



## RealSpark

silverprout said:


> "Tantalum capacitors are polarized components by the manufacturing principle and may only be operated with DC voltage in correct polarity. Reverse voltage or ripple current higher than specified can destroy the dielectric and thus the capacitor."



most of ciem maker use tantalum caps for their crossover. There must be a reason.


----------



## RealSpark

removed


----------



## Silverprout

realspark said:


> most of ciem maker use tantalum caps for their crossover. There must be a reason.


 

 C.H.E.A.P.


----------



## Mython

silverprout said:


> C.H.E.A.P.


 
  
  
 Well, some people pay a lot of money to be with cheap _women_.
  
 Therefore, could it be that some engineers actually_ prefer_ cheap capacitors?
  
 Maybe there's some logic there, but I'm damned if I can fund find it


----------



## THAudio

piotrus-g said:


> fullrange for CI and 3.3-1uF for ED full coil. That's the easiest you can do. 10-16mmx2mmID tube for ED, 16-22mmx2mmID for CI.


 
 thanks @piotrus-g,
 i have tried your suggestion configuration, i used 1uF for ED, the sound was quite good, with this configuration, what if I wanna make the low frequency little bit bigger? 
  
  


silverprout said:


> "My two cents"
> 
> ED29689 (full coil) : 0.22µF in serie with white or grey damper... and 6mm of  Ø1.5mm tube with a Ø2.5mm termination of 3mm length (horn loading=filter at 3mm of the tube end.)
> CI22955 : 10ohm in serial with white damper... and 10mm of  Ø1.5mm tube with the filter at 2-3mm of the tube end.
> ...


 
 thanks @Silverprout, but i will make analytic soundsig


----------



## piotrus-g

thaudio said:


> thanks @piotrus-g,
> i have tried your suggestion configuration, i used 1uF for ED, the sound was quite good, with this configuration, what if I wanna make the low frequency little bit bigger?
> 
> 
> thanks @Silverprout, but i will make analytic soundsig


 
 Connect CI by center tap or use resistor in series before capacitor on ED.


----------



## Silverprout

mython said:


> Well, some people pay a lot of money to be with cheap _women_.
> 
> Therefore, could it be that some engineers actually_ prefer_ cheap capacitors?
> 
> Maybe there's some logic there, but I'm damned if I can fund find it


 
  
 I always prefer cheap... capacitors, if they are designed for my applications


----------



## RealSpark

piotrus-g said:


> Connect CI by center tap or use resistor in series before capacitor on ED.


 
 Basically to dim the high a little bit in order to bring up the bass right? That will also brings up the DC Impedance right?


----------



## RealSpark

silverprout said:


> C.H.E.A.P.


 
 tantalum cap is cheap? I thought ceramic cap is cheaper?


----------



## Silverprout

realspark said:


> tantalum cap is cheap? I thought ceramic cap is cheaper?


 

 They are all as cheap... depending on the manufacturer and technical specifications.
 For our application we use them *extremely* far from their nominal ratings... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 they are all excellents and totally transparents 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 X7R, COG, NPO are all perfect (for our application).
  


realspark said:


> Basically to dim the high a little bit in order to bring up the bass right? That will also brings up the DC Impedance right?


 
 The bass will never be right with CI... it's always bumped 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (CF: manufacturer documentation)


----------



## RealSpark

silverprout said:


> They are all as cheap... depending on the manufacturer and technical specifications.
> For our application we use them *extremely* far from their nominal ratings...
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I still like the CI a lot...Tried the 31618 lately as a dual bass drivers, well...different feeling.


----------



## Silverprout

realspark said:


> I still like the CI a lot...Tried the 31618 lately as a dual bass drivers, well...different feeling.


 

 The HODVTEC is a lot less bumped than CI.
 I FEEL the CI bumped (too much)


----------



## Xymordos

IMO, The CI bass has a very nice punch to it, while the HODVTEC is sort of soft.


----------



## MuZo2

bumped?


----------



## piotrus-g

muzo2 said:


> bumped?


 
 mid-bass? That's why it's good to use resistor, even small one like 10ohm to increase speed of CI a bit


----------



## tsn141

The CI(sonion 2000 series similarly) has very much bass at mid-bass region especially. A intervention needed sometimes but they are really powerful. Very old but good.


----------



## Silverprout

tsn141 said:


> The CI(sonion 2000 series similarly) has very much bass at mid-bass region especially. A intervention needed sometimes but they are really powerful. Very old but good.


 

 The mid-bass bump that give impactfull bass... but destroy overall tonality ?


----------



## tsn141

silverprout said:


> The mid-bass bump that give impactfull bass... but destroy overall tonality ?


 
 Exactly,
 The worse thing is, sometimes, it destroys the stable operation at bass and mid region, if it occurs someone extinguish the fire, he will be a hero.


----------



## Silverprout

tsn141 said:


> Exactly,
> The worse thing is, sometimes, it destroys the stable operation at bass and mid region, if it occurs someone extinguish the fire, he will be a hero.


 

 hum...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 A tonality alteration... not only !
  
 A lot of codecs as MP3 are based on perceptual algorithms (this is why they sound not good with inaccurate headphones
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)... like the mask effect, some frequencies can be masked by others.
 Rise some frequencies can hide others and induce a loss of details ?
  
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auditory_masking


----------



## tsn141

silverprout said:


> hum...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 The masking is very and very very improtant phenomenon to my opinion, todays sound industry mostly based on it(recordings, theatre effects(dolby digital i.e.), some concert effects and usage of compressor(as I know, not sure completely) etc.). Therefore, in that area, it also important.

 Too much bass with long decay time, it will be mask other sounds at midrange and bass( comes after earlier bass kick).
  
 to my 2 cents


----------



## Silverprout

tsn141 said:


> Too much bass with long decay time, it will be mask other sounds at midrange and bass( comes after earlier bass kick).
> 
> to my 2 cents


 
  
 You must understand precisely what is done here to tune your sound properly...


----------



## Japheel

Subbed


----------



## crash88

So I started doing my own reshells all in clear. What I would like to know is how solid colors are done? Like black and white.


----------



## RealSpark

Reshelled my 5 years old SE 215 into custom.


----------



## RealSpark

muzo2 said:


> What do you use for colors?


acrylic dye, from local Arts Friend shop.


----------



## RealSpark

piotrus-g said:


> How's bass compared to universals and without vents?


well, I see there is still a huge space behind so I didnt bother to vent it. Ans the original shell is alsk not vented.
The bass is definatly more with custom.


----------



## MuZo2

It because the ciem shell is bigger than original shell? I think the way for DD reshell is to do with original shell intact to keep same sound.


----------



## RealSpark

piotrus-g said:


> Yeah I know that, but I was wondering since most if not all hybrid CIEMs require venting to work correctly.




hybrids normally use like 8mm or 10mm dynamics right? Which needs about 5 times of space of the driver size. The 215 is only like 5mm if I'm not wrong. It seems not affecting sound that. 
Maybe I should upload a FR comparison later.


----------



## RealSpark

muzo2 said:


> It because the ciem shell is bigger than original shell? I think the way for DD reshell is to do with original shell intact to keep same sound.



I have seen this before. Why not just make a custom sleeve...


----------



## MuZo2

I think with custom sleeve you dont get right insertion depth.


----------



## Silverprout

realspark said:


> hybrids normally use like 8mm or 10mm dynamics right? Which needs about 5 times of space of the driver size. The 215 is only like 5mm if I'm not wrong. It seems not affecting sound that.
> Maybe I should upload a FR comparison later.


 
 Dynamics drivers need to be depressurized before and after the membrane...
 If the pressure is not equalized properly the membrane is not centered to her neutral position (on the excursion axis).
 And the transducer don't work in his linearity excursion zone.
  
 PS : Nice job, your shells are beautifull.


----------



## RealSpark

As promissed, here is the FR comparision. 
 The yellow line is the FR of 215 before reshell. The green line is FR the after reshell.
 The bass seems very close but the high brings up by the longer tubing.


----------



## RealSpark

silverprout said:


> Dynamics drivers need to be depressurized before and after the membrane...
> If the pressure is not equalized properly the membrane is not centered to her neutral position (on the excursion axis).
> And the transducer don't work in his linearity excursion zone.
> 
> PS : Nice job, your shells are beautifull.


 
 Yes, that is true. But I believe Shure also thought about it and still they make the 215 not vented. Maybe the driver just doesn't need vent in this case.


----------



## RealSpark

muzo2 said:


> I think with custom sleeve you dont get right insertion depth.


 
 That is not a good sleeve maybe? I mean if it pass the 2nd canal bend, there shouldn't  be too much difference compare with full custom shell.


----------



## Xymordos

Interesting curve. I would expect the 215 to sound clearer than how it actually sounds...


----------



## Silverprout

realspark said:


> As promissed, here is the FR comparision.
> The yellow line is the FR of 215 before reshell. The green line is FR the after reshell.
> The bass seems very close but the high brings up by the longer tubing.


 
 +10dB of bass under 200Hz and two spikes (+10dB@5K & +20dB@7K).
 How are your listening impressions ?


----------



## RealSpark

silverprout said:


> +10dB of bass under 200Hz and two spikes (+10dB@5K & +20dB@7K).
> How are your listening impressions ?



Bass quantity is definatly much more as the insertion is much deeper. didn't feel much difference in the high though. But can hear more detail.


----------



## sososerious

Not strictly a "home made IEM" but I thought the clever souls in here might have valuable input (from the TTPOD T2 Thread)...
  
 Well my housing on the right IEM finally cracked and a piece broke off, while exploring my options re-cabling I also managed to remove the positive pad from the crossover board...talk about a good nights work.
  
 I have attached the positive cable to what I (naively) assume is the first  or 'next in line' resistor, this has decreased bass volume but tightened things up considerably? when putting back together I also put a splash of clear nail varnish over the front vent to the dynamic driver to compensate somewhat for the loss of low frequencies. Finally, I repaired the shell with air setting rubber.
  
 All the testing has been done with the open IEM in my ear, the negative lead re-soldered to the IEM and the wife holding the positive lead to various places on the crossover board until I found something I was happy with...very scientific!
  
 Anyone able to confirm what I have actually done, on a technical level? 
  

  
  
  
 .SoSoS.


----------



## MIke M

Looks like you you attached the positive to the cap. It's impossible to know by a pict what the internal scheme of the board is.


----------



## MuZo2

Can you check on back side of pcb how races are running ?


----------



## sososerious

No its blank other than another larger cap I think, it had to go back somewhere and this posistion didn't sound too bad... Well, better than the resistors(?) below.

Time to do some reading on crossover implementation I think, thanks.

.SoSoS.


----------



## Shawn71

sososerious said:


> No its blank other than another larger cap I think, it had to go back somewhere and this posistion didn't sound too bad... Well, better than the resistors(?) below.
> 
> Time to do some reading on crossover implementation I think, thanks.
> 
> .SoSoS.


 
 I doubt the positive enters the cap in the very first stage of filtering....There's a large cap (highs) underneath the x-over and the pcb looks like a dual layered to me.....if you have DMM/MM you can trace.


----------



## FARfromHOME

Just open the other iem and copy it...


----------



## Silverprout

shawn71 said:


> I doubt the positive enters the cap in the very first stage of filtering....There's a large cap (highs) underneath the x-over and the pcb looks like a dual layered to me.....if you have DMM/MM you can trace.


 
  
 This PCB is extremely simple... and easy to trace, please, don't be scared by the black lacquer


----------



## Shawn71

silverprout said:


> This PCB is extremely simple... and easy to trace, please, don't be scared by the black lacquer


 

 Ha HA!..I know, but it's for sososerious..... ;p


----------



## sososerious

Ok, sorry for my lack of understanding my electronics expertise only just about cover de-soldering and soldering wires back in place!

So far I have come to the conclusion I have bypassed R1 and R2 and soldered back after(?) The cap C1. I am however concerned that this may have bypassed the dynamic driver (S-/S+). I have re-sealed the shells so don't want to open them unless I need to....

If the board is easy to follow can someone who understands it give me a little advice on what to do? I take it R1 R2 & C1 trim the frequencies from the dynamic driver or am I completely wrong?

Thanks for everyone's help and encouragement so far by the way.

.SoSoS.

PS: FARfromHOME - I snapped the solder pad off one of the PCBs so I can't just put it back how it was, I am obviously making these changes to both to keep them the same


----------



## Cotnijoe

Hey all! Me and a friend of mine are trying our hands out at creating our own CIEM just out of interest, so I'm reaching out to all you DIY CIEM makers out there for advice!
  
 I started a thread for myself to hopefully keep track of the info that i get. If anyone has anything... ANYTHING that could be of help to us, we'd really appreciate it!
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/770509/attempting-a-diy-ciem-project-need-help


----------



## Furco

cotnijoe said:


> Hey all! Me and a friend of mine are trying our hands out at creating our own CIEM just out of interest, so I'm reaching out to all you DIY CIEM makers out there for advice!
> 
> I started a thread for myself to hopefully keep track of the info that i get. If anyone has anything... ANYTHING that could be of help to us, we'd really appreciate it!
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/770509/attempting-a-diy-ciem-project-need-help




Start here:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jU37oWefx2dGS8dWw5TVkugEtwJh_bh3fuUBNe2HrQg/edit?usp=docslist_api


----------



## sososerious

Anyone know of a supplier for a small amount of 1.4mm or 0.55" acoustic tube in the UK?
  
 I want to play around with some BA's and only need a few cm's of tube, can't even find a supplier for large quantities at the moment.
  
 Thanks.
  
 S.


----------



## piotrus-g

sososerious said:


> Anyone know of a supplier for a small amount of 1.4mm or 0.55" acoustic tube in the UK?
> 
> I want to play around with some BA's and only need a few cm's of tube, can't even find a supplier for large quantities at the moment.
> 
> ...


 

 Colsanmicro or sensorcom - they are in UK.


----------



## sososerious

Thanks I have pinged them both an email, hopefully they accept non-commercial orders.
  
 S.


----------



## Furco

Glad to see some new blood on this forum.  Everyone seems to have vanished lately.  I guess like most hobbies, people get extremely passionate about it for a while and then slowly the excitement starts to wane.  
  
 I've spent the last 3 months pushing the envelope with my latest design.  I re-shelled some SE 425 drivers and spent many MANY hours trying to come up with something truly unique for the shells:  butter fly wings.  Obviously ordinary butterfly wings would't do, they had to be iridescent.  And after much gnashing of teeth and countless failures, I was able to achieve some amount of success.   
  

  

  

  

  
  
 I would highly recommend getting your hands on some SE 425 drivers.  They sound amazing and are a synch to tune.  I had them exactly where I wanted them after about 15 minutes.  
  

  
 One challenge with the drivers though is the fact that the two nozzles are very close together which makes attaching larger diameter acoustic tubes that much more difficult.  I wanted large diameter tubes, something near 2.0mm, for each driver so that I didn't have problems with the high frequencies getting attenuated. Here's how I worked around this issue.
  
 I connect two small diameter short tubes to each nozzle on the drivers.  I then cut a length of heat shrink tube and two lengths of small diameter tubing.  I found a metal pen and stuck the shrink tube on it and then inserted the two small diameter tubes so that they were on either side of the ball point.  I hit it with the heat gun and it formed a perfect cone that fit the driver like a glove.  I did seal the union with some thick glue (Loctite GO2) so that I didn't have any bass leak.
  
  

  
  
  
 Cheers


----------



## grushaaa

Hello guys! I make my own single armature headphones.
  


  
 I used driver sonion 26UA01C/7G. - 70 Ohm resistance. It's very cheap and good sounding of driver. This series of driver used on sleek sa6, klipsch x10, ath im01, myst nail 1,2,3. technically no worse than etymotic er4s. Have good bass. I buy this driver from china on shop http://juliakev.1688.com or http://kaihang86761639.1688.com  Good luck!


----------



## Silverprout

grushaaa said:


> I used driver sonion 26UA01C/7G. - 70 Ohm resistance. It's very cheap and good sounding of driver. This series of driver used on sleek sa6, klipsch x10, ath im01, myst nail 1,2,3. technically no worse than etymotic er4s. Have good bass. I buy this driver from china on shop http://juliakev.1688.com or http://kaihang86761639.1688.com  Good luck!


 
  
 130ohm @ 1000Hz ??
  
 outch..


----------



## grushaaa

Silverprout,

 
 
  
 Multimeter *RDC - 66 - 70 ohm !!! *
 Please do not be misleading of people and correctly read the datasheets!!!


----------



## MIke M

That's the DCR, not impedance, you are confusing the two


----------



## Silverprout

mike m said:


> That's the DCR, not impedance, you are confusing the two


 
  
 The 26UA01 data from Sonion.


----------



## piotrus-g

You know, 130 ohm is not _that _high, still possible to driver them from portable source, although amp should be used for more power.
 I personally find 2600 to be lacking in high's


----------



## MIke M

Thanks for posting the data sheet, I hope you realize I was saying grushaaa was confusing the two. I'm not aware of a way to measure impedance with a multi tester alone.


----------



## grushaaa

Data Sheet - 26UA01CG/7, flak jacket, ground.
  
 http://www.sonion.com/Products/Transducers/Receivers/~/media/Files/Products/Data%20Sheets/Transducers/Receivers/Receivers%202600/Receiver%202600/26UA01CG-7_v1n.ashx
 DC resistance @ 20°C  - min 59 ohm- max 73 ohm. It's not 130 ohm!!!
  
piotrus-g,
 It's not typical single driver with clear analytical neutral sound. This is very colour sound with good bass and high's is legible but not aggressive in face but very accuracy. And this the best I've heard for heavy metal music like slamming brutal death metal. I was listening a huge number of different armature headphones and custom including and I have a notion of what a good sound. Try listening this driver.


----------



## piotrus-g

grushaaa said:


> Data Sheet - 26UA01CG/7, flak jacket, ground.
> 
> http://www.sonion.com/Products/Transducers/Receivers/~/media/Files/Products/Data%20Sheets/Transducers/Receivers/Receivers%202600/Receiver%202600/26UA01CG-7_v1n.ashx
> DC resistance @ 20°C  - min 59 ohm- max 73 ohm. It's not 130 ohm!!!
> ...


 

 I don't understand why you are getting so defensive.
 The driver has 70 ohm resistance but impedance is 130 ohm at 1kHz. This is what datasheet says. Impedance is better indicator than dc resistance because impedance is dependent on frequency.
  
 I stated the fact, 2600 series don't extend well in high, I'm using those driver on daily basis. I owned Sleek SA6 for over a year, I heard and measured myst. Plus, non-extending in highs results in this colored, non-aggressive sound!
 I'm not trying to discourage you form building whatever you are building, in fact contrary. Go ahead, build, test, have fun.
  
 PS: I would argue there's no such thing as "typical" single driver. Every single driver is different.


----------



## grushaaa

Hello Piotrus! I have a couple of questions. I want to take two identical 26UA01C/7G and build a simple Two-way crossover of the first order (6db/octave).

  
 For calculate to take the resistance value DCR or Impedance@1000 Hz ?
  
 The intersection of frequency, it is desirable to do in a place where there are big peaks to flatten them, I correctly understand?
  
 Why in brochure sonion example 2- way crossover with an inverted polarity? Maybe it's second-order crossover 180*°* (12db / octave)?

 How to calculate а resistor for low pass, any calculator dont have this function. 
  
 Possible for two identical drivers do not need a resistor
  
 Thank you!


----------



## piotrus-g

> For calculate to take the resistance value DCR or Impedance@1000 Hz ?


 
 Impedance + cap value. If you want to calculate the cross-over point for 1kHz use impedance for 1kHz - in this case 130 Ohm and cap would be 1uF (gives cut-off at around 1,2kHz)
 If you want higher cut-off value you have to use smaller caps.
 Without impedance graph vs frequency (which is not linear) you won't be able to calculate exact crossover point.
  


> Maybe it's second-order crossover 180*°* (12db / octave)?


 
 No it's not. 2nd order would be cap - resistor to ground - cap - driver or cap - 1st driver - cap(in parallel after 1st driver ) - 2nd driver.


> How to calculate а resistor for low pass, any calculator dont have this function.


 
 Google high pass or low pass filter calculator - there are plenty


----------



## grushaaa

Piotrus why in the second scheme of sonion the polarity tweeter is inverted, if I correctly understand the black point indicates the positive terminal. 
  
 Is it possible to dispense with the resistor using two identical drivers?
  
 Thank you very much!


----------



## piotrus-g

grushaaa said:


> Piotrus why in the second scheme of sonion the polarity tweeter is inverted, if I correctly understand the black point indicates the positive terminal.
> 
> Is it possible to dispense with the resistor using two identical drivers?
> 
> Thank you very much!


 

 because after certain value cap flips phase of electric signal that's why you have to change polarity of driver to avoid phase issues (canceling)
  
 you mean cap, not resistor? Yes. definitely.


----------



## grushaaa

I mean resistor for low pass, cap is in a chain.
  
 I think the problem with the phase I will not have or without special equipment I not understand, maybe it's not so scary.
  
 Thanks a lot!


----------



## piotrus-g

grushaaa said:


> I mean resistor for low pass, cap is in a chain.
> 
> I think the problem with the phase I will not have or without special equipment I not understand, maybe it's not so scary.
> 
> Thanks a lot!


 
 Oh, you could probably try it, my experience is that using resistor is much much easier


----------



## grushaaa

sonion 1723 acupass dont have resistor on low pass so it's not so important for simple solutions
  
 what happens if a cap put on the intersection where there is a peak between 2-3khz is peak completely disappears?
  
 Thanks.


----------



## earlop

bilavideo said:


> It looks like I'm going to be doing my own acrylic casting. There are inexpensive kits online but I don't really want to wait for shipping. If anybody knows of a major outlet that carries resin and catalyst, drop me a line. I'm not going to use friendly plastic because of its low melting point (100 degrees Fahrenheit). I also don't want to use anything opaque. I love that transparent/translucent look.




Loving this thread. Have been trying to make a hollow housing before i invest in the drivers etc. 
not sure where you are in the world but I use BARNES in sydney for most of my resin stuff. Itherwise try finding a college/uni that dies special effects near you and see where they buy their supplies


----------



## MuZo2

reply after 6yrs?


----------



## piotrus-g

grushaaa said:


> sonion 1723 acupass dont have resistor on low pass so it's not so important for simple solutions
> 
> 
> Thanks.


 

 Because AcuPass doesn't use electrical low pas filter. It's one driver as full range and one driver as tweeter (after capacitor)


> what happens if a cap put on the intersection where there is a peak between 2-3khz is peak completely disappears?


 
 Errr... it will simply cross-over. If you add low-pass filter and second driver in full range you should expect increase in bass response it all really depends on what crossover point you choose, if the crossover is set for 2-3kHz there will be increase in range 10-1500Hz and decrease in 1500-20000Hz compared to single full range driver


----------



## grushaaa

Today tried to do a simple crossover 1uf cap and 0.47uf cap. For me 0.47uf have better sound. Piotrus possible to change the polarity of the high-frequency driver what do you think?


----------



## piotrus-g

> Piotrus possible to change the polarity of the high-frequency driver what do you think?


 
 I'm not sure what you are asking about?


----------



## grushaaa

it's connect as shown above on picture.
  I have tried parallel connect and sound did not like for me


----------



## piotrus-g

grushaaa said:


> it's connect as shown above on picture.
> I have tried parallel connect and sound did not like for me


 

 Still not sure what your question is...
  
 This is how it should be connected. Be it 1uF or 470nF (0,47uF). I don't think I can explain it better.

  
 If you wire C1 to positive tap then you are ending up with phase canceling.


----------



## grushaaa

Yes Piotrus, I tried to explain this. With this setup sounds better with 1uf cap. 0.47 yet I have not tried


----------



## grushaaa

So I tried 0.47uf cap with connecting like on Piotrus picture. I can say that this driver is not suitable for use in crossover more drivers. The problem is that the driver can not give  lower bass and he starts to wheeze. But this driver is very well used alone a wide nozzle diameter 3mm and a short length. Thank you Piotrus for help!


----------



## grushaaa

I remembered that I still wanted to ask Piotrus. Can I remove sound nozzle on driver for make better sound and reduce peak. How to do it well?


----------



## piotrus-g

grushaaa said:


> I remembered that I still wanted to ask Piotrus. Can I remove sound nozzle on driver for make better sound and reduce peak. How to do it well?


 
 I don't advise it. Peaks will still be present, just at different frequencies.


----------



## grushaaa

Also interesting to learn from Piotrus. Why when i listen to music happens appears rustling sound like crackling vinyl. But when I check on the program audio frequency generator these problems do not occur. This artifact is not always evident. I listen to music from a laptop may perhaps this is the reason. You're dealing with the drivers and whether it is marriage or defect.


----------



## piotrus-g

clipping? jitter? Check with other sound sources (CD/DAP/smartphone)


----------



## grushaaa

Hello Piotrus! I found a good cheap driver knowles CI 30120 like analog CI 22955.
  
 frequency graph

  
 So, though write that it is a good woofer, but have decline in subbass.
  
 For me the best I've heard woofer is sonion 3800 in shure 846. But this driver have vented hole on the body. Is it possible himself to drill a hole on the body like sonion 2094?


----------



## piotrus-g

grushaaa said:


> Hello Piotrus! I found a good cheap driver knowles CI 30120 like analog CI 22955.
> 
> frequency graph
> 
> ...


 
 Neither 22955 or 30120 roll-off at the lows, I think it may be result of your measuring gear which I assume is not IEC-60318-4
  
 I don't think it's possible to drill holes in driver w/o damaging it, but I've seen it, as one of "big-brand" cIEM company modifies driver housing by drilling or cutting the back of the driver.


----------



## grushaaa

This not my frequency graph and what kind of equipment used do not know. Buy i listen westone um pro 20, westone w50 and I would not say that they have low bass like shure 846. JH Audio used in JH 10*3pro CI22955 vented driver
  

JH AudioJH10*3pro
 
  

JH AudioJH10*3pro
 
  

JH AudioJH10*3pro


----------



## tranhieu

piotrus-g said:


> Neither 22955 or 30120 roll-off at the lows, I think it may be result of your measuring gear which I assume is not IEC-60318-4
> 
> I don't think it's possible to drill holes in driver w/o damaging it, but I've seen it, as one of "big-brand" cIEM company modifies driver housing by drilling or cutting the back of the driver.


 
  
 There's a trick to it. You first sand off the material where your hole's supposed to be. Then use a pointed tool to slightly punch through the casing. I've done this several times and the drivers worked just fine.
  
 Personally that's just too much of a hassle though, the vented variant would cost the same.


----------



## piotrus-g

tranhieu said:


> There's a trick to it. You first sand off the material where your hole's supposed to be. Then use a pointed tool to slightly punch through the casing. I've done this several times and the drivers worked just fine.
> 
> Personally that's just too much of a hassle though, the vented variant would cost the same.


 
 In the process there's high chance you can bend the housing. A lot of trouble especially when you are able to purchase vented version of the driver.


----------



## MuZo2

Lets say you vent a CI whats the benefit?


----------



## grushaaa

tranhieu
 So, Is this vented hole make better listen subbass? 
 I want to try to make two holes like in Sonion 2094


----------



## tranhieu

piotrus-g said:


> In the process there's high chance you can bend the housing. A lot of trouble especially when you are able to purchase vented version of the driver.


 
  
 True, but it's also very fun in its own right 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			






muzo2 said:


> Lets say you vent a CI whats the benefit?


 
  
 More sub bass, longer bass decay.


grushaaa said:


>


 
  
 Whether it's better or not depending on how you implement your LP. I personally don't like vents on BA in general.
 You can pick anywhere else to make holes if that makes the process easier. Beware of debris falling into the casing, plus if the hole is too large there's no way back LOL


----------



## MuZo2

> as one of "big-brand" cIEM company modifies driver housing by drilling or cutting the back of the driver.


 
 Any graphs available to see difference of ported vs non ported CIEM, to see effect on the sub bass?


----------



## RealSpark

> Whether it's better or not depending on how you implement your LP. I personally don't like vents on BA in general.
> You can pick anywhere else to make holes if that makes the process easier. Beware of debris falling into the casing, plus if the hole is too large there's no way back LOL


 
 Can't you just use Scotch tape to tape it if its too big?


----------



## Xymordos

Personally I'm not a fan of vents on BA either. Tried both and found that I tend to like the sound of the non-vented version better.
  
 I compared a CI22955 vented and non vented. Frequency wise the vented version is louder in the bass. But it was only a quick scan since I accidentally removed the solder on the center tap of one of them, and I filled the hole up afterwards, so I don't have a pic.


----------



## tranhieu

muzo2 said:


> Any graphs available to see difference of ported vs non ported CIEM, to see effect on the sub bass?


 

  
  


realspark said:


> Can't you just use Scotch tape to tape it if its too big?


 
  
 I used blutak, ugly as hell though.


----------



## grushaaa

tranhieu,
 Wow, amazing work! Bass like subwoofer! Maybe you give a photo in what place did vented hole


----------



## MuZo2

Just found it
 http://www.sonion.com/~/media/Files/Academy/Academy_ProAudio__DocCode_304_V_001_Web.ashx


----------



## piotrus-g

grushaaa said:


> tranhieu,
> Wow, amazing work! Bass like subwoofer! Maybe you give a photo in what place did vented hole


 

 Yeah but you realize the graph presents difference between vented and non vented drivers, right? which means that vented driver improves around 3dB over the non-vented in lowest region.
 However in my opinion this still doesn't represent what is happening.
 Please check graph below. It's 37A007 and vented version 7C/8, same tubing, brought to 1kHz to show the difference. Measured with IEC-60318-4

  
 As you can see there's pretty much no difference in sine-wave graph in bass region other that 1dB difference. Both drivers works flat. However what happens in CSD is another story and that probably counts more.


----------



## tranhieu

Ah I forgot to add both CIs were measured with the same low pass filter.
 I suppose the added SPL and the tuning frequency depend on the type of driver and how large the vent is. The 3700 seems to have roughly +6db @ 1.5kHz in that graph.
   
 Quote:


grushaaa said:


> tranhieu,
> Wow, amazing work! Bass like subwoofer! Maybe you give a photo in what place did vented hole


 
 Sorry, scrapped them all. It was long ago and I haven't drilled anymore since then.


----------



## grushaaa

Thanks Piotrus.
  
 I think most typical driver is sonion 3300. For me this graphics is an indication how to change frequency depending on the size vented hole
  
 Sonion 33AJ007i
 without vented hole

  
 Sonion 33AJ007i/9
 have little vented between contact
  


 Sonion 33AJ007i/8
 have big vented hole


  
 I think such holes must approach to knowles DTEC, hes dont make vented driver


----------



## piotrus-g

grushaaa said:


> Thanks Piotrus.
> 
> I think most typical driver is sonion 3300. For me this graphics is an indication how to change frequency depending on the size vented hole
> 
> ...


 

 Obviously you are right, but if you brought them to 1kHz the difference wouldn't look that big.


----------



## grushaaa

At what frequency is best to do the intersection crossover so as not to lose the bass? I think the lowest bass should not be affected


----------



## Xymordos

Found these interesting graphs. They are the FR measurements from Unique Melody. Top one is Mentor, bottom one is an universal Angie reshelled by UM. Bass setting was on minimum.


----------



## robervaul

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/NEW-3-14-HIFI-DIY-in-ear-earphones-dynamic-earbuds-sound-isolating-headphones-free-shipping/32334365071.html


----------



## mattmatt

Hi! I'm having trouble with uploading photos, anyone care to tech me how  

Can you also help me determine the pin outs sonion 2023? Am I right, from the view of the solder pads, negative, center tap, positive? Actually, it's from a UE sf.5 pro. I am rewiring it and making a universal shell but got lost with the terminals even with the tweeter terminals


----------



## Breezy

Protip: Don't put a candle wax covered ear impression in the microwave. You'll need a new plate and new eyes.

Protip 2: Ballistics gel doesn't take long to melt if your oven is messed up and only does a higher heat than recommended. Also a release from aluminum foil might not be needed (I'm not sure). Also it's available as as a sample, which is enough for both impressions if you're not a derp.

Protip 3: Make sure your impression doesn't get to close to the bottom of the mold, that weakens it.


----------



## dkun7944

breezy said:


> You'll need a new plate and new eyes.


 
  
 So it'll explode? Or turn into the sun?


----------



## DingoSmuggler

breezy said:


> Protip: Don't put a candle wax covered ear impression in the microwave. You'll need a new plate and new eyes.


 
 All the things you shouldn't do with a microwave are always the most fun.


----------



## Breezy

Plate cracks and fumes are released.

Nice cracking sounds tho.


----------



## quadkiller

Delete


----------



## Xymordos

Wow, that looks really nice. I think I might get one to try it out!


----------



## tranhieu

> The true response as heard by the human ear is a combination of the blue and red curves.


 
 http://vibrolabs.com/blogs/articles/36766977-veritas-quality-and-consistency
  
 Not sure where this's coming from.
  
 And measurement wise, their graph lacks the typical peak @ 2.7khz, not to mention the steep roll off of ~30db/octave.


----------



## piotrus-g

tranhieu said:


> http://vibrolabs.com/blogs/articles/36766977-veritas-quality-and-consistency
> 
> Not sure where this's coming from.
> 
> And measurement wise, their graph lacks the typical peak @ 2.7khz, not to mention the steep roll off of ~30db/octave.


 
 This. The coupler is not 60318-4


----------



## taiden

tranhieu said:


> Not sure where this's coming from.


 
  
 Hey tranhieu, Knowles has some great resources posted on DigiKey that discuss this. Every IEM builder should watch these.
  
 http://www.digikey.ca/suppliers/ca/knowles-acoustics.page
  
 Thanks!
 Luke


----------



## piotrus-g

taiden said:


> Hey tranhieu, Knowles has some great resources posted on DigiKey that discuss this. Every IEM builder should watch these.
> 
> http://www.digikey.ca/suppliers/ca/knowles-acoustics.page
> 
> ...


 

 So what you are saying? Your coupler means to be a hybrid of IEC711 and 0.4cc? But the graphs presented on the website doesn't seem to be supporting that.
 Just to be clear I'm not attacking you or anything. I just want to know more about your product. I have GRAS IEC 711 and would be interested in finding out some alternatives, not for official measurement but for fun, why not...


----------



## taiden

Hey, no worries! I thought you were talking about how Knowles presents their frequency response data. Unfortunately, I am not allowed to talk about my products on Head-Fi (not a sponsor), but I'm happy to discuss this via email or in PM. Thanks.


----------



## quadkiller

Delete


----------



## taiden

quadkiller said:


> http://vibrolabs.com/blogs/articles
> 
> As you can see, data from Knowles is -22dB, but Veritas is -40dB.
> So Veritas is not a IEC 60318-4 compatible coupler.


 
  
  
 Hey quadkiller, that's correct. Vertias is not IEC 60318-4 compliant, but that's not the point. Those tools exist and they are too expensive for enthusiasts.
  
 The IEC specification was my bible while designing the Veritas. My two goals are to keep it low cost and to keep measurements consistent across all units.
  
 My goal here is to get more people building IEMs!


----------



## grushaaa

Hello friends! So I make vented hole in sonion 2600. It was a mistake hahahaha because it does not do more bass or sub-bass. And volume of all sound is decreases. Piotrus was right)))


----------



## MuZo2

Its too big hole. You need to port small hole at side. Have you seen driver from se535?


----------



## Skold

Hi, i have read around 230 pages of this thread or so. I have all of the components and supplies to make my own CIEMs. I have taken my impressions and Im not sure exactly how to trim them before making the molds to pour the acrylic in. If someone could explain exactly what I should trim off/keep or has a link to a thread that explains it well that would be great. Thank so much!


----------



## taiden

Hey @Skold !
  
 As a general rule, follow the natural contours of the impression and trim it so the base is parallel to your ear!
  
 Out of curiosity, what parts did you collect for your build?


----------



## Skold

Hi, I am in dental school, so i have all of the necessary lab equipment to make and process these acrylic ear pieces. I have the tubing, dreve acrylic, and thermoplast to make the shells. I have some silicone to make the negative molds. In the dental lab I have a UV light curing matching that has a rotating table to cure the acrylic. I have a few drivers to try out: CI, TWFK, DTEC, GK and a few others. Ive gotten a few cables to figure out exactly what I want to use. Also i picked up some litz wire thats very small in a green/red colors. Also I have a huge array of dental burs and polishing kits to polish everything correctly. Only thing I am missing is some Caps and resistors if I am going to do any crossover stuff. But currently I am not sure how to go about trimming the impressions correctly. Does anyone have any pictures of their impressions after they have been trimmed correctly so that I can see what Im going for?


----------



## MuZo2

I posted some videos previously. You can find the process of trimming them there.


----------



## Skold

muzo2 said:


> I posted some videos previously. You can find the process of trimming them there.


 

 Ok thank you!, does anyone remember what page they were on? Took me like a week to read through this stuff...........


----------



## MuZo2

http://www.head-fi.org/t/661952/diy-custom-in-ear-monitor-information-resource


----------



## Bigsy

I was browsing on aliexpress and saw quite a number of DIY iems, these quad BA's in particular had my interest:

 http://www.aliexpress.com/item/free-shipping-diy-handmade-earphone-in-ear-hook-headphone-with-Four-units-MicroDrivers-se535-Housing-shell/32296042540.html?ws_ab_test=201407_4,201444_6,201409_4
  
 I sent them a message for more details and was told they're Knowles units with a 3-way crossover; 1 high, 1 mid, 2 low units.
  
 I'm tempted to get this can any of you diy buffs tell me why this could be a terrible idea? My knowledge of DIY'in these things is minimal 
  
 Thanks


----------



## MuZo2

Why do you want to spend that much on some diy iem. With that money you can buy some well know brands.


----------



## ForceMajeure

Hey guys, I've been reading this whole thread and a ton of others on different sites for the last 3 weeks and I am interested into making my own CIEM.
 Now I have amassed sufficient knowledge to start but before I pour a ton of money on gear I have a BIG question.
  
 I never heard BA drivers, I am aware there are different ones with different combination and endless ways to get different sound signature but what is intriguing me is the bass quality/quantity I can expect from it. There is this kind of "common opinion" that BA bass cannot rival Dynamic driver bass....
  
 I am not looking for bassheads level but I want my future builds to have at least the bass quality of my current Vsonic GR07BE. The Vsonics BE have a very good bass impact that goes low with the right amount to my taste. Is it even attainable? Will they be able to move sufficient amount of air or have the same rumble?
 if so What bass driver should I be looking for CI's, Sonions? should I use doubles for bass? 
  
 Also i have a basic circuitry question about impedance. If I want to calculate it (with no tool just based on a design schematic) do I add the total left earpiece in parallel to the total right earpiece?
 Also if anyone have an impedance calculation example of a 2way crossover or 3way crossover design that would be nice.
  
 I am sure I will have other questions on the way ...


----------



## MrRimantas

Hello guys, as a headphones w***e,im in making a IEMS because i hate to spend big amount of my paycheck on custom ones and i want to make, fail, try again and so on. My question is where to get something in europe, to make impressions?


----------



## MuZo2

mrrimantas said:


> i hate to spend big amount of my paycheck on custom ones and i want to make,


 
  
 You will spend more money DIY route.


----------



## MrRimantas

muzo2 said:


> You will spend more money DIY route.


 
 Better in DIY route than in mainstream  Im looking for a fall-winter project so this would be a very good thing


----------



## sososerious

mrrimantas said:


> Better in DIY route than in mainstream  Im looking for a fall-winter project so this would be a very good thing




Maybe buy some shells from aliexpress (DIY Custom/universal) and some Knowles GK and GQ drivers and experiment?

That's what I have done and its a cheap way to get some decent drivers and crossover components, TWFKs, CIs, caps, resistors, etc.

Mine don't sound too bad, even experimenting with adding dual dynamics I took from some Samsung's that where hyped last year.

Can link shells if needed.

SoSoS


----------



## sososerious

Moving iron HiFi headphones shell DIY headphones similar shell se535 se215 shell
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Moving-iron-HiFi-headphones-shell-DIY-headphones-similar-shell-se535-se215-shell/32247940474.html
(from AliExpress Android)


----------



## MrRimantas

sososerious said:


> Moving iron HiFi headphones shell DIY headphones similar shell se535 se215 shell
> http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Moving-iron-HiFi-headphones-shell-DIY-headphones-similar-shell-se535-se215-shell/32247940474.html
> (from AliExpress Android)


 
 Thank you, ill look after work on this. Been thinking to use something like this but then idea to make a round shell struck into head


----------



## Joey-chow

mrrimantas said:


> Thank you, ill look after work on this. Been thinking to use something like this but then idea to make a round shell struck into head


 
 Maybe, you guys should to have a look at TAOBAO, there have so many goods on line shopping. Just like BA drivers, cables, and so on...
  
 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?_u=6fvg283b2af&id=41074279827  you can try to click this link to reach it...


----------



## ForceMajeure

joey-chow said:


> Maybe, you guys should to have a look at TAOBAO, there have so many goods on line shopping. Just like BA drivers, cables, and so on...
> 
> https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?_u=6fvg283b2af&id=41074279827  you can try to click this link to reach it...


 
 I intend to make most of my purchases for my project from there. UV resin for shells, ears impression material, wires tubing driver and what not...I will be using a forwarding agent for for delivery.
  


forcemajeure said:


> Hey guys, I've been reading this whole thread and a ton of others on different sites for the last 3 weeks and I am interested into making my own CIEM.
> Now I have amassed sufficient knowledge to start but before I pour a ton of money on gear I have a BIG question.
> 
> I never heard BA drivers, I am aware there are different ones with different combination and endless ways to get different sound signature but what is intriguing me is the bass quality/quantity I can expect from it. There is this kind of "common opinion" that BA bass cannot rival Dynamic driver bass....
> ...


 
 Anyone can answer this? 
 Buy the way is there anybody from this thread who is still active?


----------



## Joey-chow

forcemajeure said:


> I intend to make most of my purchases for my project from there. UV resin for shells, ears impression material, wires tubing driver and what not...I will be using a forwarding agent for for delivery.
> 
> Anyone can answer this?
> Buy the way is there anybody from this thread who is still active?


 
 Where are you from? i have help two Korea IEM person to shipping the material to them, but only drivers, cables, female jack...


----------



## sososerious

furco said:


> In the spirit of giving back, I present to you the "Home-Made IEMs" forum Definitive DIY Guide:
> 
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jU37oWefx2dGS8dWw5TVkugEtwJh_bh3fuUBNe2HrQg/edit?usp=sharing
> 
> ...


----------



## sososerious

I believe that document also compares some branded universal iems and discusses their use of BA drivers, maybe cross reference reviews on those and pick a list of drivers to start with? 

@ForceMajeure

I personally think a single CI with it's own sound bore in to the canal section is plenty, you may want a bit more but you can double up or use a TWFK in unison for its extra low section. 

You can certainly get massive mass from BAs if you take the time, it won't be cheap mind you.


----------



## ForceMajeure

@sososerious
  
 I have just read the entire thread including the Furco guide I might need to go over them again to refresh my memory.
 I was hopping someone had experience with the Vsonic gr07be so it could be easier for me to match the bass,
 I know I'm gonna loose a lot of money on this and I really want to make a good pair (or two) I will probably be buying a dozen BA and experimenting.
 I have bought a microphone so I could do measurements and  compare sound signature and CSD to the Vsonic or others.
  
 Also to whom is experienced, do you use lacquer to have a clear finish on the shell or do you polish  or both? I will probably use Dreve UV.


----------



## Furco

Hi all, most of us who have been experimenting and building with BA's have chosen the drivers based on a number of factors. Price is usually the major one when just getting started. All of us have burned up BAs during the soldering process, pulled out solder pads during excessive handling, clogged up drivers by accidently pushing acoustic materials inside of the driver, and there have been the occasion crushing of the metal housing of drivers trying to force them into impossibly small spaces. The more expensive the driver, the less forgiving they tend to be. There is a real need to develop skills with handling miniature components. As far as recommendations about BAs, the only true recommendations that can be made are to build IEMs using the same exact configurations that have proven to yield good/great sounding DIY IEMs in the past. I totally understand the DIY spirit of wanting to give birth to your own unique design and configuration but getting to this level of DIY is usually dependent on your skill as a builder, testing equipment, patience to acoustically tune them and most importantly, your willingness to accept failure. There are numerous pitfalls during the build process that make it challenging for us to help pinpoint what the problem might be if you're using BAs we're not familiar with. 

I have no doubt that many of you newcomers have some pretty cool ideas and I look forward to seeing your progress. New ideas definitely spark old flames in some of the veterans on this forum.

I'm not sure I actually answered any of your questions but the best thing you can do is just get started and post regular updates on your progress. Be honest with the challenges you are facing and have the willingness to accept advice that may be counter productive to your design. Many of us have seen well intentioned DIYers join this forum with an excess of excitement only to go dark a few short weeks later. I would venture a guess and say there are probably a dozen of us over the years who have actually managed to produce custom IEMs that we found enjoyable to listen to.

Cheers!


----------



## Furco

muzo2 said:


> You will spend more money DIY route.




That is an absolute fact.

 However, with attempting a DIY build, you can spread out the cost over many months which helps swallowing that" financial" pill a bit easier for some.


----------



## ForceMajeure

Thank you for your advice,nice to see some veteran blood in here  
Do you recommend using a breadboard for testing configuration?


----------



## Furco

forcemajeure said:


> Thank you for your advice,nice to see some veteran blood in here
> Do you recommend using a breadboard for testing configuration?




Absolutely. I know veterans like tranhieu tend to just solder and test. You'll probably want to spend a few solid weeks learning how BA drivers react to various crossover circuits and using a breadboard can assist with rapid prototyping. 

However, you don't always need to build your own crossover as many newer multi-BA drivers come with them already incorporated. It's still very interesting to learn about this part of tuning so it's time and money well spent in my opinion. 

Here's the thing about this forum, there are lots of lurkers and we pop up from time to time and get invested in projects when they've reached a certain level of credibility. We're all curious about new ideas and configurations, as well as artwork. Heck! Who doesn't love a great looking set of IEMs? This forum got hot last fall when a few of us invested time and money and started posting the various stages of our builds. That brought back in the veterans who provided some awesome advice and support and some significant contributions were made to this forum. 

I look forward to helping anyone who's actually making progress and was actually a little sad that this forum went cold. But I think these kinds of DIY forums tend to get hit during he winter months as this is a great project to fight the cabin fever some of experience during long cold winters.

--Cheers!


----------



## tranhieu

Lol I'm no veteran but it's true I often just solder the whole thing together and watch how it behaves inside the coupler to see if it's worth building an actual test set.

It's also true long time lurkers are still around but they don't post often if all new posts are questions that were already answered. The knowledge accumulated in this thread is enough for builders to comprehend hi-end designs in the market.


----------



## JamesBr

joey-chow said:


> Maybe, you guys should to have a look at TAOBAO, there have so many goods on line shopping. Just like BA drivers, cables, and so on...
> 
> https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?_u=6fvg283b2af&id=41074279827  you can try to click this link to reach it...


 
 Tanks for the link!


----------



## taiden

I'd be wary of that price, $1.50 for a TWFK-30017. Qty pricing for this part is around $30@1000.
  
 Edit: nevermind! That's Yuan not Yen.


----------



## MuZo2

*¥ 190.00 * ( 约USD 29.77)


----------



## taiden

That's correct!


----------



## ForceMajeure

Anyone knows what's the impedance of the Knowles-TWFK-23991 or any difference it have with the TWFK-30017 ?
 Graphwise they suppose to have the same response.


----------



## taiden

I can't find it stocked anywhere or find the datasheet. Where did you hear about it?


----------



## ForceMajeure

Probably used in the k10 design...
 I found it on aliexpress and tabao (heir sells it on ali, they also provide a datasheet but cut out the impedance).


----------



## Xymordos

Drivers on Taobao are often second hand picked out from used hearing aids/ earphones


----------



## arthurY

anyone had experience with both the sonion 2389 and the knowles 29689? I was planning to use one of them as the tweeter and the sonion 33AJ007i/9 for the woofer and a bit of mid. From where I could get it, the knowles is nearly half the price of the sonion. Will the sonion be worth almost double that price?


----------



## tranhieu

arthury said:


> anyone had experience with both the sonion 2389 and the knowles 29689? I was planning to use one of them as the tweeter and the sonion 33AJ007i/9 for the woofer and a bit of mid. From where I could get it, the knowles is nearly half the price of the sonion. Will the sonion be worth almost double that price?




They are pretty much the same response wise.


----------



## arthurY

Thanks  I think I'll get the knowles anyway


----------



## Panohm

Few Questions, slowly getting supplies to start building.

 What are the tubing part  #s used in this video?  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJ55BCSwJkg or any that accept a damper and smaller tubing, can't seem to narrow it down on microsonics.

 I forgot to purchase UV lacquer or build up material, how do i find UV resin/nailpolish that is inert to the body. I've tried looking on ebay/amazon for UV nail polish or organic nail polish but i want to be sure.


----------



## ForceMajeure

panohm said:


> Few Questions, slowly getting supplies to start building.
> 
> What are the tubing part  #s used in this video?  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJ55BCSwJkg or any that accept a damper and smaller tubing, can't seem to narrow it down on microsonics.
> 
> I forgot to purchase UV lacquer or build up material, how do i find UV resin/nailpolish that is inert to the body. I've tried looking on ebay/amazon for UV nail polish or organic nail polish but i want to be sure.


 
 I believe he used in this video #13 normal and #16 normal.
 #13 should be 2mm ID thus fitting the knowles damper (2.08mm Diameter). #16 is the small one and fits the spout (usually knowles spout is 1.4 mm diameter), so #16 ID should be 1.5mm and because it fits into the #13 the outer diameter should be 2mm.
  
 So small tube  #16 ID 1.5mm OD 2mm
 bigger one #13 ID 2.5mm OD 3mm(I guess)
  
 Regarding the lacquer you could buy some on taobao.com (egger uv lacquer)
 or try http://www.lightningenterprises.com/uvmaterials.html they are based in the US


----------



## ForceMajeure

Got a question, I think it was kinda answered in this thread but I want to be sure.
  
 What is the spl gained by doubling the same BA? Can I had a number of decibels gained by using 2 BA to the whole frequency response of the same driver?
  
 What a about 3 identical BAs? 
  
 Of course connected in parallel.
  
 Also is there a way I could increase the impedance of a design using resistors/or design a circuit without affecting the overall frequency response?


----------



## tranhieu

Quote:


forcemajeure said:


> What is the spl gained by doubling the same BA? Can I had a number of decibels gained by using 2 BA to the whole frequency response of the same driver?



  
 Around 5-6dB SPL, parallel wiring.
  
 Quote:


forcemajeure said:


> What a about 3 identical BAs?



  
 In theory +10dbSPL
  
 Quote:


forcemajeure said:


> Also is there a way I could increase the impedance of a design using resistors/or design a circuit without affecting the overall frequency response?



  
 Some drivers are sensitive to impedance changes, some aren't. Either look at their inductance rating or impedance response to determine.
  
 Personally I don't like using damping resistors.


----------



## ForceMajeure

thanks a lot


----------



## Furco

I thought I read somewhere that muktiple drivers tuned the same equals a larger sound stage. Any truth to that?




tranhieu said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted by *ForceMajeure* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> ...


----------



## tranhieu

furco said:


> I thought I read somewhere that muktiple drivers tuned the same equals a larger sound stage. Any truth to that?




I don't think so. Case in point: the Savant with only 1 ED sounds tremendously large compared to the early S-EM6 with 2 TWFK.


----------



## Furco

So this begs the question, what influences the sound stage when building IEMs? Better frequency separation among the low, mids, and highs? Longer tubes? Closely matching SPL from your drivers? 



tranhieu said:


> I don't think so. Case in point: the Savant with only 1 ED sounds tremendously large compared to the early S-EM6 with 2 TWFK.


----------



## Mython

Phase certainly plays a part in subjective soundstage proportions


----------



## ClemBurmingham

I have been lurking this thread for a long time now, and wanted to take a second to thank everyone here that has shared their knowledge and experience.
  
 I just wish I could wrap my head around the casting of the IEM. I can build the connections, but when it comes to curing the lacquer, it "feels" off compared to the the mold done of my ear. I'm sure there is a page I have missed, and I guess I'll keep trying since I know it isn't impossible.


----------



## ForceMajeure

Talking about phases and how to rectify them
  
 Can you tell me If I understand correctly, this is how it works:
  
 Lets say we only have 2 different drivers, 1 bass  and 1 mid/highs the crossoverpoint is at 1500hz, 1st order High Pass crossover shifts the phase of the mid/highs driver by 45 deg.
  
 Now the mid/high drivers leads by 0.0833ms
  
*Phase angle (deg) φ = time delay **Δ t** × frequency **f** × 360*
  
* time delay **Δ t** *= 45/(1500*360)
                          =0.0833 ms   
 which means that sound at 1500hz arrive at the eardrum faster buy 0.0000833 sec. So in order to get both drivers in sync I need to make the mid/highs driver sound travelling a longer distance.
  
 Assuming the speed of sound at 20 deg Celsius is 343.2 m/s  (though at body temperature it's closer to 353 m/s) the difference in tubing length should be 343.2*0.0000833= 2.85 cm (1.125 inches).
  
So the tube length for the mid/highs driver should be 2.85 cm longer than the tube for the bass driver.
  
what about the rest of the higher frequencies 1501hz-20khz? they have less time delay than the 1500 hz but now they will have to travel along the tubelength appropriate for the 1500hz delay...?
  
also is this right?: 1st order filter shifts the phase forward by 45 deg
                           2nd order filter shifts the phase forward by 90 deg
                           3rd order filter shifts the phase forward by 135 deg
                           4th order filter shifts the phase forward by 180 deg


----------



## Furco

This is very interesting. But I question the example math. 2.5cm to correct a 1st order crossover sounds wrong though I have no proof. Anyone know the limits of the human ear to differentiate sounds occurring at different timeslices?



forcemajeure said:


> Talking about phases and how to rectify them
> 
> Can you tell me If I understand correctly, this is how it works:
> 
> ...


----------



## Furco

What do you mean when you you say it feels "off"? Are you speaking about the isolation from ambient sound isn't as good as the isolation when you were getting your ear molds done?



clemburmingham said:


> I have been lurking this thread for a long time now, and wanted to take a second to thank everyone here that has shared their knowledge and experience.
> 
> I just wish I could wrap my head around the casting of the IEM. I can build the connections, but when it comes to curing the lacquer, it "feels" off compared to the the mold done of my ear. I'm sure there is a page I have missed, and I guess I'll keep trying since I know it isn't impossible.


----------



## ForceMajeure

@Furco 
According to this book "Master Handbook of Acoustics 5th Edition by F. Alton Everest, Ken Pohlmann"

http://andrealbino.wikispaces.com/file/view/Master+Handbook+of+Acoustics+-+5th+Edition+-+F.+Alton+Everest,+Ken+C.+Pohlmann.pdf

Chapter 4 The Perception of Sound page 53 Loudness of Impulses




"As a 1-sec tone burst, a 1-kHz tone sounds like 1 kHz. But an extremely short burst
of the same tone sounds like a click. The duration of such a burst also influences the
perceived loudness. Short bursts do not sound as loud as longer ones. Figure 4-12 shows
how much the level of shorter pulses must be increased to have the same loudness as a
long pulse or steady tone. A 3-msec pulse must have a level about 15 dB higher to sound
as loud as a 0.5-sec (500-msec) pulse. Tones and random noise follow roughly the same
relationship in loudness versus pulse length.

100 msec appears to be the maximum integrating time or the time constant of the human ear. In
particular, events occurring within 35 msec, such as reflections from walls, are integrated
by the ear with regard to level. This shows that the ear responds to sound energy
averaged over time."


----------



## Furco

That's excellent info! Thanks for posting the link to the literature.


----------



## ForceMajeure

If I understand correctly this part from this book, there is no shortest sound detectable by the human ear. if the sound impulse have sufficient energy it will be audible as a click.
For a tone to be detectable as a tone, it should be on ~100 ms, shorter for tones of higher frequency.


----------



## ClemBurmingham

furco said:


> What do you mean when you you say it feels "off"? Are you speaking about the isolation from ambient sound isn't as good as the isolation when you were getting your ear molds done?


 

 Absolutely, isolation is the biggest difference. Not only the difference between ear molds, but against the ones I got from UM. Though I understand that a person doesn't learn how to shape over night, it seems to allude me consistently. There seems to be some slight differences that become readily apparent to me, and probably because I am sitting there in the quiet, trying to figure out what is wrong. I've thought it was because the way I have been doing it (uv cure under nail light), that it is because I am creating a hollow body, so I attached a back plate, which added isolation for sure, but still it just didn't feel right.


----------



## Furco

Let's undertand a little bit about your shell building process.
  
 1) Where did your ear molds come from?  An audiologist of are they DIY?  If DIY, what kind of material did you use and does your mold include all parts of the outter ear extending to the helix (outter rim ob ear) ?
 2) What exactly did you do to trim or shape your molds?  How aggressive were you?
 3) How did you translate your postivie ear molds into negatives? What material did you use for your negative molds?
  
 Answer those and I might be able to help.  Here's quick rundown of my process:
  
 1) DIY ear molds done in silicon.
 2) Trim canal to 2nd bend; identify direction of canal to ensure I get the acoustic tubing pointed at my ear drum.  I've wasted a couple builds by having my tubes misdirected and pointing at my inner ear walls instead of at my ear drum. Trim away excess outter ear portions such as anti-tragus, anti-helix, and scaphoid fossa.  Perform any spot repairs where necessary.  No aggressive sanding is done to the molds, actually, virtually no sanding is done at all to the silicon.
 3) Ear molds are dipped in wax to create a slightly larger positive mold as well as create a perfectly smooth surface.
  
 Here's where things get a little too complex but it's my process and it works for me.
 4.1) Create a negative mold with Knox brand gelatin (mix double-thick).
 4.2) Make a positive mold using West Systems resin (this resin in polyester based so I'm knowningly assuming all risks)
 4.3) Make negative mold using ballistics gel.
  
 Things I've learned about creating molds:
 a) Materials can shrink and warp, some quite dramatically.
 b) With the materials I use, I make the resin positive molds as soon as posible, usually within an hour or two after pulling out the silicon from my ears.
 c) Dipping in wax is important for the reasons I specified, however, don't go overboard!  You can add one or two extra layers of gloss laquery to perfect the isolation if necessary.
 d) Your negative moulds needs to be sufficiently robust enough to support the empty space so they do not cave in on itself.  Trying to save on material costs by trying to create negative molds with the least amount of material is a recipie for failure.  We're not mass producing them so saving grams/ounces of material is unnecessary. 
 e) As crazy as that sounds, the heat of catalyzing acrylic can be hot enough to actually melt some materials.
  
 Sorry to sound like I'm preaching but there's just a lot of knowledge I learned from failing.
  
 Cheers


----------



## Furco

forcemajeure said:


> If I understand correctly this part from this book, there is no shortest sound detectable by the human ear. if the sound impulse have sufficient energy it will be audible as a click.
> For a tone to be detectable as a tone, it should be on ~100 ms, shorter for tones of higher frequency.


 
  
 I thought we were talking about phase shifts and the need to correct them, no?  I'm not sure I understand where you're going with asking about shortest detectable sound.  To me, that's the not the issue, the issue in my mind is understanding what is the functional limit that the ears start to perceive a "delay" in a signal. Similar to the idea that human ears have the ability to perceive sounds between 20Hz - 20kHz.   Actually, there's two issues here, one theoretical and the other practical:
 1) What's the maximum amount of delay that can occur between two independent signals (left/right) when our ears perceive "a problem" with the signal.
 2) How do you determine when phase cancellation is occuring? why? What can be done to correct it?
  
 This is actually getting pretty deep into is something that hasn't been adequately explored in this forum and I'm super excited to try and understand more about this topic.
  
 In your example, you have 2 drivers, 1 bass and 1 mid/high, with the mid/high having a 1st order HP crossover.  You went on to explain that the sound of the cross-overed driver, while shifted 45 degrees, will actually reach the reference plane quicker than the non-crossovered driver. This doesn't sound right to me. From a practical sense, if one signal is going through an unfiltered circuit and the other is going through a filtered circuit, I would think that the "more twists/turns/distance" a signal has to travel through, the longer it will take to get to where it needs to go.  So if my logic is right, the mid/high driver signal will actually reach the reference plane AFTER the the sound from the bass driver, not "before" as you have indicated.  "Reference Plane" is just a fancy word for ear-drum.
  
 I'm going to try to digest this in small chunks.
  
 --Chris


----------



## Silverprout

furco said:


> In your example, you have 2 drivers, 1 bass and 1 mid/high, with the mid/high having a 1st order HP crossover.  You went on to explain that the sound of the cross-overed driver, while shifted 45 degrees, will actually reach the reference plane quicker than the non-crossovered driver. This doesn't sound right to me. From a practical sense, if one signal is going through an unfiltered circuit and the other is going through a filtered circuit, I would think that the "more twists/turns/distance" a signal has to travel through, the longer it will take to get to where it needs to go.  So if my logic is right, the mid/high driver signal will actually reach the reference plane AFTER the the sound from the bass driver, not "before" as you have indicated.  "Reference Plane" is just a fancy word for ear-drum.
> 
> I'm going to try to digest this in small chunks.
> 
> --Chris


 

 The crossover of the mid/high could perhaps have an influence on the whole IEM circuit !
 ... ?


----------



## tranhieu

furco said:


> So this begs the question, what influences the sound stage when building IEMs?


 
  
 According to David Griesinger's interpretation of Moller and Theil's research the localization characteristic of headphones depends on the relative differences in their (diffuse field referenced) frequency response.
  
 My experience also concurs, especially within the mid region (1.5khz - 2.7khz). A slight relative variation of 0.5db in said area affects the perception of vocal's body/imaging, relative to its surrounding instruments.
  


furco said:


> Better frequency separation among the low, mids, and highs?


  

 Yes.
  


furco said:


> Longer tubes?


  

 Not necessary.
  


furco said:


> Closely matching SPL from your drivers?


  

 Yes


----------



## Furco

Can we break it down into an ideal config? Let's say I have 3 drivers, a low, mid, and high, all built by the manufacture so that each one has their own frequency response that matches their intended purpose and they all have the same SPL. Putting them in an IEM yields a flat frequency response curve. Can this be considered the model for a "large" soundstage or is it a "wide" soundstage? 

Maybe to ask a slightly different question,can you get a wide soundstage in a single driver that has a flat FR?


----------



## ForceMajeure

furco said:


> I thought we were talking about phase shifts and the need to correct them, no?  I'm not sure I understand where you're going with asking about shortest detectable sound.  To me, that's the not the issue, the issue in my mind is understanding what is the functional limit that the ears start to perceive a "delay" in a signal. Similar to the idea that human ears have the ability to perceive sounds between 20Hz - 20kHz.   Actually, there's two issues here, one theoretical and the other practical:
> 1) What's the maximum amount of delay that can occur between two independent signals (left/right) when our ears perceive "a problem" with the signal.
> 2) How do you determine when phase cancellation is occuring? why? What can be done to correct it?


 
 We are talking about phase shifts, I will try my best to explain what I understand so far.
  
 I believe I read somewhere that for the sound to be "coherent" it should arrive at the eardrum within 10 microseconds... in this youtube vid https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zZRy-UArXM you can hear that even in at 0.5 millisecond the click-sound sounds like it's echoing. For example when things are out of phase, kick drum doesn't sound tight and full it's kind of lacking body and vocals aren't exactly in  the "center " of the soundstage .
  
 Sound that is not pure sinusoidal like instruments or voices or even electronic beats have their own harmonics, meaning not only do they exhibit sound in a fundamental frequency  _f _ but the same sound at the same time also have a second harmonic at a frequency 2 _f_ , a third harmonic at frequency of 3 _f_ , and so on... that's what's make instruments sounds like instruments and not  a simple sinusoidal tone.  Here is a great explanation about it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzeZbJceKZE
  
 Phase shifts may causes some part of the frequencies to add or subtract one another to even completely cancelling out if there is a 180deg phase shift. 
 That's why phase shift can make even low sounding instruments like bass guitar for example not as good sounding as without phase shift because bass guitar emits a sound frequency (fundamental) not only in a low region frequency but also at higher frequencies (harmonics). 
  
  
  


furco said:


> In your example, you have 2 drivers, 1 bass and 1 mid/high, with the mid/high having a 1st order HP crossover.  You went on to explain that the sound of the cross-overed driver, while shifted 45 degrees, will actually reach the reference plane quicker than the non-crossovered driver. This doesn't sound right to me. From a practical sense, if one signal is going through an unfiltered circuit and the other is going through a filtered circuit, I would think that the "more twists/turns/distance" a signal has to travel through, the longer it will take to get to where it needs to go.  So if my logic is right, the mid/high driver signal will actually reach the reference plane AFTER the the sound from the bass driver, not "before" as you have indicated.  "Reference Plane" is just a fancy word for ear-drum.
> 
> I'm going to try to digest this in small chunks.
> 
> --Chris


 
 The problem here from what I understand so far about filters is that your description about what a filter does to a signal ( "more twists/turns/distance") is not accurate.
 A capacitor is a frequency reactive component . Meaning it reacts differently at different frequencies in an AC circuit.
  
 A High/Low pass filter is kind of a voltage divider circuit on a load.
  
 In a 1st order LOW PASS filter the capacitor is in parallel to the load and the phase will LAG by 45 deg. "This is due to the time taken to charge the plates of the capacitor as the input voltage changes, resulting in the output voltage (the voltage across the capacitor) “lagging” behind that of the input signal. The higher the input frequency applied to the filter the more the capacitor lags and the circuit becomes more and more “out of phase”." ( the explanation quoted is from this link http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/filter/filter_2.html).
  
 In a 1st order HIGH PASS filter the capacitor is in series to the load and the phase will LEAD by 45 deg, the voltage across the capacitor cannot instantly change if there's a fast change on the input voltage it will instantaneously appear on the output side of the capacitor so high frequency pass through  That's how a capacitor work in AC circuits. Now phase shift is a difficult concept to explain, if you want to dig in in taake a look http://www.tedpavlic.com/teaching/osu/ece209/lab3_opamp_FO/lab3_opamp_FO_phase_shift.pdf  but I would accept it as it is explained here http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/filter/filter_3.html and go on with it 
  
 If i understand correctly every order shift the phase by 45 deg, 1st order is 45deg, 2nd order 90deg, 3rd order 135deg, 4th order 180deg.
 The leading or lagging part is associated with the filter type, Low pass make it lags, High pass make it leads... If I recall in this thread somewhere Piotr advised someone to actually inverse the polarity of one of it's driver so it would be in mainly in phase instead of cancelling a part of the Frequency Response. before that the guy showed he had a big dip in his measure of the headphone's Frequency response... so that's also a way of dealing with it... 
  
 Just to be clear, I am no PhD in electronics... I have no superior knowledge of anykind and I don't not want to sound like am I superior or something...also I am sure you all are way more experienced than I am about all of this...
  
 Now I may have an Idea how to passively high filter BA's without any electronic parts so there's no phase shift but I am not sure how it can work out, I am currently in the process of purchasing all the gear I need to start building CIEM and experimenting.


----------



## tranhieu

furco said:


> Can we break it down into an ideal config? Let's say I have 3 drivers, a low, mid, and high, all built by the manufacture so that each one has their own frequency response that matches their intended purpose and they all have the same SPL. Putting them in an IEM yields a flat frequency response curve. Can this be considered the model for a "large" soundstage or is it a "wide" soundstage?


 
  
 What is 'flat' actually? The DF curve has been revised at least twice AFAIK and there's no telling if Harman is bringing out another revision next time.
  
 For the rest of your question, yes. This's been in practice in the last few years with notable examples of the TWFK and the AcuPass models (yeah they're duals I know, just saying).


furco said:


> Maybe to ask a slightly different question,can you get a wide soundstage in a single driver that has a flat FR?


  

 Yes. Still, it depends on how you define 'wide' (surprisingly there's been no properly conducted research on this I know of).


----------



## ClemBurmingham

furco said:


> Let's undertand a little bit about your shell building process.


 
 I appreciate you humoring me, even though you guys are generally having conversations well above my level regarding in-ears.
  
 So here is where I have started.
  
 1. I got initial impressions from an audiologist. Being my first attempt, I figured it was worth a shot having them done by someone else that potentially knows how to best get a mold of my ear.
 2. From there I did some minor trimming, such as I trimmed them to the 2nd bend as well as sliced a few corners around the outside edges. This rational came from looking at my existing set, and seeing that the area around the faceplate was not as large as the molds I received from the audiologist.
 3. Reading the processes here and in other threads, I got wax, and heated it up, and do 2-3 passes through the wax, really just enough to seal and smooth.
  
 4. The process I have been following has not included recasting a positive at all. I go to the gelatin stage, get it thick enough, remove bubbles and hopefully make it as clear as possible, and case my molds in the gelatin. I let it set and cure. One the gelatin has set well, I remove the molds carefully as to not rip the gelatin corners. I do the negative casting in these small ziploc round containers, so I can seal them up. I have found if I seal them, the gelatin shrinks at a much slower pace, and if I need a few nights before I can try and cure uv resin, I still have a usable negative.
 5.From there, I pour in the uv resin and I use a nail light set up in a similar manner to some videos that were recently relinked in this thread. I find with my molds, about 2:55-3:10 is the window of a solid enough shell. When I drain off any fluid resin and clean the shell, I have a shell that has some texture to it.
 6. I then take a lower 100's grit sandpaper and smooth off any harsh corner around where the faceplate will sit. I take off very little, almost nothing, just enough to remove edges.
  
 That's where I start to run in to problems. It just feels like the shell doesn't fill my ear the same way that the UM I have do. Almost like there are air pockets where I need to build up more material.


----------



## MuZo2

May be you added too much wax and now they dont go to proper depth. Or gelatin shrinks uneven.


----------



## ClemBurmingham

muzo2 said:


> May be you added too much wax and now they dont go to proper depth. Or gelatin shrinks uneven.


 

 It is something I have considered. I have more than enough uv gel left, that I figured my next step, in a week when I have some time to dedicate to the process, that I would do everything for one ear, make a face plate, and then just paint on additional material until I have something that 'feels' like the right fit. Then at least I have a master that I can fiddle around with. Though my circuit designs are no wear close to any of you, I do have that process down pretty well, I just need to get the shell process down.


----------



## Furco

clemburmingham said:


> It is something I have considered. I have more than enough uv gel left, that I figured my next step, in a week when I have some time to dedicate to the process, that I would do everything for one ear, make a face plate, and then just paint on additional material until I have something that 'feels' like the right fit. Then at least I have a master that I can fiddle around with. Though my circuit designs are no wear close to any of you, I do have that process down pretty well, I just need to get the shell process down.




It sounds like your shell process is pretty solid.

1). How old are your ear molds from the audiologist?
2) Would you consider using your UM's as the positive mold instead of the ones from the audiologist?


----------



## ForceMajeure

New kind of design for a low count driver,
  

  
  
  
 http://www.e-earphone.jp/blog/?p=23888


----------



## jbr1971

silverprout said:


> Yes !
> 
> Big 13mm dynamic driver with ED29689.


 
  
 Hi all, I am new to this thread as I just stumbled on it a few days ago.
  
 Having heard some hybrid IEMs at RMAF I really like the overall sound, but could not find a pair with a sound signature that fit exactly for my taste.
  
 After having great success with modding some T50rp over-ear planar headphones, I am looking to try my hand at putting some CIEMs together for a fun new project.
  
 Silverprout, I was wondering where you got your dynamic drivers from. I do not think I will go as big as 13mm, probably 8-10mm.
  
 Any information you can provide would be greatly appreciated.
  
 Thanks,
  
 Jody


----------



## ForceMajeure

Welcome to this thread 
 You can find drivers on taobao.com (chinese ebay) this guy have dynamic drivers https://jodger.world.taobao.com/search.htm?spm=a312a.7700824.0.0.L32EZ6&search=y 
  
 Also on aliexpress this store have a ton of choice.
 inear drivers http://www.aliexpress.com/store/group/In-ear-speaker-unit/323026_258234415.html
 earbud drivers http://www.aliexpress.com/store/group/Earbud-speaker-unit/323026_258236396.html


----------



## ClemBurmingham

furco said:


> It sounds like your shell process is pretty solid.
> 
> 1). How old are your ear molds from the audiologist?
> 2) Would you consider using your UM's as the positive mold instead of the ones from the audiologist?


 
 More than 6 months now. I've just been waiting on a good time to get to a local audiologist (moved recently, one town over).
  
 Funny story. So sometime just outside of warranty I managed to take a pretty good fall, in-ears in, and popped out. Both sides looked in good condition. Upon further inspection, the left had some cracks and a few chips. Now an intelligent man would have just sealed it up. I wanted to repair the chips. I fished some of the broken material, and either when the chips happened, or when I was fishing them out, I disconnected a line going to one of the low drivers, so then I slowly cracked the body from the deeper ear to see if I could solder the line... Not as funny as I thought, but the point is that I would have one good positive to start with on the right side at least.


----------



## MuZo2

clemburmingham said:


> More than 6 months now. I've just been waiting on a good time to get to a local audiologist (moved recently, one town over).
> 
> Funny story. So sometime just outside of warranty I managed to take a pretty good fall, in-ears in, and popped out. Both sides looked in good condition. Upon further inspection, the left had some cracks and a few chips. Now an intelligent man would have just sealed it up. I wanted to repair the chips. I fished some of the broken material, and either when the chips happened, or when I was fishing them out, I disconnected a line going to one of the low drivers, so then I slowly cracked the body from the deeper ear to see if I could solder the line... Not as funny as I thought, but the point is that I would have one good positive to start with on the right side at least.


 

 Most likely the impressions are deformed.


----------



## Silverprout

jbr1971 said:


> Silverprout, I was wondering where you got your dynamic drivers from. I do not think I will go as big as 13mm, probably 8-10mm.
> 
> Any information you can provide would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> ...


 
  
 a 13mm driver is useless for normal ears...


----------



## Furco

> I believe I read somewhere that for the sound to be "coherent" it should arrive at the eardrum within 10 microseconds... in this youtube vid https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zZRy-UArXM you can hear that even in at 0.5 millisecond the click-sound sounds like it's echoing. For example when things are out of phase, kick drum doesn't sound tight and full it's kind of lacking body and vocals aren't exactly in  the "center " of the soundstage .



  
 Agreed!  That youtube video was very helpful for me to illustrate the effects of a delay in signals.  As you have said, even at 0.5ms, the delay was obvious.   So can we come up with a rule-of-thumb that says something such as:  "*Configurations **that result in a delay (lag or lead) of 10**µs** (microseconds) or larger will cause coherence problems and should be remediated in multi-driver configurations."  *How exactly to deal with the delays remains to be seen.  So if we go back to your example where there's an 83.3µs (0.0833ms) delay caused by a 1st order HP crossover in a multi-driver configuration, that's a problem based on our new rule-of-thumb.   So if 10µs is our theoretical lower limit, I wonder how the frequency response would look  between your example configuration and one where the phase was corrected .   Interesting.....interesting.....interesting.......  I'll have to think about how to test this.  
  
    


> Sound that is not pure sinusoidal like instruments or voices or even electronic beats have their own harmonics, meaning not only do they exhibit sound in a fundamental frequency  _f _ but the same sound at the same time also have a second harmonic at a frequency 2 _f_ , a third harmonic at frequency of 3 _f_ , and so on... that's what's make instruments sounds like instruments and not  a simple sinusoidal tone.  Here is a great explanation about it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzeZbJceKZE
> 
> Phase shifts may causes some part of the frequencies to add or subtract one another to even completely cancelling out if there is a 180deg phase shift.
> That's why phase shift can make even low sounding instruments like bass guitar for example not as good sounding as without phase shift because bass guitar emits a sound frequency (fundamental) not only in a low region frequency but also at higher frequencies (harmonics).


 

  
 I love your description about harmonics.  "...that's what makes instruments sound like instruments and not a sample sinusoidal tone."   and that video was super cool because it shows how much is actually going on across the frequency spectrum when a sound is made.  It helps paint the picture in my head about how phase shifts that are happening in a driver can add/subtract/cancel out frequencies and make the overall sound good/bad/ugly. 
  


> The problem here from what I understand so far about filters is that your description about what a filter does to a signal ( "more twists/turns/distance") is not accurate.
> A capacitor is a frequency reactive component . Meaning it reacts differently at different frequencies in an AC circuit.
> 
> A High/Low pass filter is kind of a voltage divider circuit on a load.
> ...


 

  
 So what you are describing sounds a lot like MAGIC!  Lol....
  
 This is starting to get a little sticky.  Earlier, I was okay with the concepts about delay being measured in "time" and how that affects the coherence of sound.  Now, we're starting to introduce phase shifts measured in degrees and how that can affect the harmonics .  I'm okay with understanding both "delay" and "phase shifts" as separate and independent influences but now we have to merge the two into a single definition.  I initially thought that this might not be as hard as I think it is, but then I went back to your opening post about this and read this bombshell:
  
_"What about the rest of the higher frequencies 1501hz-20khz? they have less time delay than the 1500 hz but now they will have to travel along the tubelength appropriate for the 1500hz delay...?"_
  
 So are you saying a 1st order HP crossover at 1500Hz will cause a 88.3µs delay in only that specific frequency and that frequencies higher than this experience less and less delay so by the time we get up to 10kHz, the delay is only something like 13µs?  Ohhh wait a second.......this is kind of cool and actually could explains a lot about the crossover testing I did a while ago.  I'll have to go back and review my testing based on this information.
  
 If we look at some data, this might help:
  

 1st Order2nd Order3rd Order(Hz)45-deg90-deg135-deg1000125µs250µs375µs150083µs167µs250µs200063µs125µs188µs300042µs83µs125µs400031µs63µs94µs500025µs50µs75µs600021µs42µs63µs700018µs36µs54µs800016µs31µs47µs900014µs28µs42µs1000013µs25µs38µs Delay in microseconds
  
 When I look at this and I think that 10µs, while it might be the theoretical limit of the average human ear, it's not practical to correct delays above this level.  Delays above 100µs might be something to actually pay attention to when doing this in the real-world; just guessing at this obviously .  Similar to many of us not paying too much attention to frequency response above 8khz on our builds since most of us don't have testing equipment that can reliably and accurately show us the FR for those frequencies.  And FR above 12kHz is getting into the realm that separates the hobbyists from the professionals.
  
 I have definitely see situations in one of my prototypes where I had to reverse the polarity of a DTEC to correct a huge cancellation in my frequency response of a 6 driver setup I was experimenting with.  
  
  
  

 --Cheers


----------



## pc27618349

I just finished making my first CIEM - a quad-driver with a Knowles GK with an extra Knowles CI-22955 connected in parallel with the GK's CI driver. Both CIs are glued to each other and a single 20mm #12 tube was used for them, along with a red Knowles damper. The TWFK is positioned closer to the tip (about 9mm tube length) with a single #12 tube. There aren't any other electronic additions other than the crossover that came with the GK. The shell itself is made from Gelaze UV Nail Topcoat, cast in a gelatin mold, with a cover plate made from transparent polycarbonate. They look pretty sweet! I'll get some pictures up when I have time. Thanks everyone for all the hard work that has helped me make these!

 

The goal was to have some extra bass kick but the CIs still display impressive lower midrange and are also shouting down the TWFK drivers in the GK. The lower mids from the CIs get congested easily and the bass is on the boomier side rather than the tighter side. The TWFKs are unfiltered but are barely audible over the raw power of the CIs. I want to tighten the bass and somehow decongest the lower mids, but I'm unsure of how to start. Would wiring the CIs in series do any good?

 

I'm thinking of moving the red filter closer to the drivers to increase bass decay, but how can I reduce the SPL from the CIs so that the TWFK isn't so overpowered?


----------



## piotrus-g

pc27618349 said:


> I just finished making my first CIEM - a quad-driver with a Knowles GK with an extra Knowles CI-22955 connected in parallel with the GK's CI driver. Both CIs are glued to each other and a single 20mm #12 tube was used for them, along with a red Knowles damper. The TWFK is positioned closer to the tip (about 9mm tube length) with a single #12 tube. There aren't any other electronic additions other than the crossover that came with the GK. The shell itself is made from Gelaze UV Nail Topcoat, cast in a gelatin mold, with a cover plate made from transparent polycarbonate. They look pretty sweet! I'll get some pictures up when I have time. Thanks everyone for all the hard work that has helped me make these!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 How good do you feel with soldering? Do you have easy access to untypical value of caps? (mouser/digikey is enough but to some countries shipping costs a lot unless you're buying in large quantities).
 I will send you scheme just let me know what level of sophistication do you want, like: easy, normal, cool or super-cool


----------



## Furco

piotrus-g said:


> How good do you feel with soldering? Do you have easy access to untypical value of caps? (mouser/digikey is enough but to some countries shipping costs a lot unless you're buying in large quantities).
> I will send you scheme just let me know what level of sophistication do you want, like: easy, normal, cool or super-cool




Come on, let us know how you'd go about improving the issues, Peter. The double CI's are too powerful and need to be toned town with some resistors or maybe a resistor heavy LP xover.

You can't just use "super-cool" without sharing. It's a forum rule I think.


----------



## pc27618349

piotrus-g said:


> How good do you feel with soldering? Do you have easy access to untypical value of caps? (mouser/digikey is enough but to some countries shipping costs a lot unless you're buying in large quantities).
> I will send you scheme just let me know what level of sophistication do you want, like: easy, normal, cool or super-cool



I've had a ton of soldering experience so I'm pretty comfortable with it. My ears and ear canals are small, though, so a design with less components would be appreciated.  Digikey/mouser are pretty accessible for me (USA) so anything available on there should be fair game. I'm aiming for a somewhat neutral response - some extra bass slam or treble sparkle isn't unwelcome though, as long as the mids do not become recessed. 

Thanks piotrus! Not just for I find it awesome that you're so invested in helping out people in this thread despite being someone who is dependent on people buying what you make. I've used a lot of your previous input in figuring this out!

EDIT: Here are the pictures of my build:


----------



## piotrus-g

haha, ok, i will think of something you could try out. Maybe do both "cool" and "super-cool" versions


----------



## Furco

> EDIT: Here are the pictures of my build:


 
  
 Nice!! I see you used MMCX connectors of which I'm a big fan.  I also some components in there other than the drivers.  Did you separate the TWFK and the CI from the GK's crosover so you could position the TWFK down into the canal?  That's pretty smart!  Some have complained about trying to put double tubes on the GK but because of the lack of clearance between the two nozzles, it's a pain.  
  
 I'm thinking Peter's idea is going to do away with the existing crossover and suggest a 3-way, or maybe just add a 2nd order LP crossover to one of those CIs. Either way, a TWFK + 2 CI's has the making of one hell of a great sounding IEM.  Can't wait!


----------



## pc27618349

furco said:


> Nice!! I see you used MMCX connectors of which I'm a big fan.  I also some components in there other than the drivers.  Did you separate the TWFK and the CI from the GK's crosover so you could position the TWFK down into the canal?  That's pretty smart!  Some have complained about trying to put double tubes on the GK but because of the lack of clearance between the two nozzles, it's a pain.
> 
> I'm thinking Peter's idea is going to do away with the existing crossover and suggest a 3-way, or maybe just add a 2nd order LP crossover to one of those CIs. Either way, a TWFK + 2 CI's has the making of one hell of a great sounding IEM.  Can't wait!


 
  
 Yup! I took the cables from an old pair of Shures that I had and didn't want to invest in another set of cables, so I used MMCX connectors. They seem to be more durable than the two-pin connectors anyways. 
  
 I did separate the TWFK from the GK - it was a matter of sliding a razor blade between the two drivers. The epoxy they use to hold them together is quite tough! I had to clean the GK's CI off before I could stick the other CI on it. Like I said before, my ears and ear canals are tiny as heck so I had to find a way to make things work.  But with the second CI on it, I still had to deal with the double nozzle issue but sticking a single #12 tube on it wasn't any more difficult than the stock GK setup.
  
 I can't really tell what the crossover that Knowles puts on the GK is - it seems like a first-order crossover of a resistor and a capacitor, but I can't tell which driver it is cutting without slicing the circuit board off the GK, which I'm less willing to do. 
  
 The bass of a double CI combo has been really good - I've been mostly listening to the bass of dynamic drivers and so I wanted the same impact that dynamics have. It is almost to that level, but I'm not sure if there's some resonance issues but the bass and lower mids are a little muddy. But the muddiness might also be because the TWFK isn't providing the air that it usually would. 
  
  
 As a side note, in making the shells, I've found that cleaning any tacky residue from the shell (I used UV nail gel) with acetone is a much better option than using a glycerin bath to do a post-cure of the shells. Using a glycerin post-cure seems to cause random strands of acrylic to cure in random places, resulting in the gritty texture of my shells. I actually peeled off a few layers of acrylic from the inside of my shell because it post-cured while glycerin was underneath and so there was a very thin flat air bubble along the shell. It also once caused the shells to seal themselves shut (with glycerin inside) because the leftover acrylic floated to the top of the shell and cured there. Leaving the tack for cleaning with a bit of acrylic leaves a much cleaner and smoother surface.


----------



## piotrus-g

OK guys,
  
 here's the "cool" project... ("super cool" will have to wait till it's measured, because I don't want to put up something that doesn't work)
 The design below is quite easy (took me 5min to sketch and it's pretty much bullet proof if you wire it correctly - as in the picture).
  
 First of all I figured if @pc27618349 is using GK why not reuse parts from it, and since the GK is using 22uF cap and the idea is for more neutral sound we can allow for higher resistor lower cap combo for lowpass.
 Secondly I provided you with two possible resistor values and cap values to have a bit of wiggle room if you want to add small changes without throwing everything out of order. The same goes for tubing and damper values.
  
 Finally, if R1 value goes up TWFK output will increase, so by increasing R1 you not only move cut off slope back to the left on graph but also decrease the output in that range relative to 1kHz.
 If the sound is still too bass-heavy you can put R2 of 20-40Ohms on the second CI (the one w/o lowpass). This will "speed-up" the bass, lower the CI's output and increase relative TWFK's output.
  
 Happy tuning!
  
 [Eidt] The above design turned a bit flawed so please go the post http://www.head-fi.org/t/430688/home-made-iems/3960#post_12019755 for correct wiring and second more fancy 4way design. Sorry.


----------



## Furco

I think initially a lot of us love the deep dark bass that dynamic drivers provide. I haven't had luck getting that same sound from BA's and I slowly became ok with that and began to appreciate the bass I was hearing even though it's different than what I was used to. I haven't heard any high end IEMs so maybe you can achieve that subwoofer type bass.

I'm sure the GK crossover question has already been answered already on this forum as to which driver is being x-overed and what the crossover frequency is.

About your tack layer on your shells, I never had this problem that you are describing. It almost sounds like you did the initial cure, the brushed on another coat of gel, put it in glycerine then tried to cure it. That's wrong. You need to do a long cure first to try and catalyze as much of the acrylic as possible before you put it in glycerine. If you're trying to cure a fresh wet layer of gel in the glycerine, you'll definitely run into problems you have described. It did that once or twice and after much cursing, learned that lesson the hard way. What kind of UV light are you using? A handheld LED flashlight or some UV bulb setup? I use both.

Acetone will certainly strip off that tick layer as well as the cured layer. It's powerful stuff. I use isopropyl alcohol but unfortunately both acetone and isopropyl alcohol can leave the surface cloudy which is astetically unpleasing to some. You can get a really nice shine by doing your final coat in gloss and then curing that tack layer in glycerine. At least that's what I do and it's worked pretty well.




pc27618349 said:


> Yup! I took the cables from an old pair of Shures that I had and didn't want to invest in another set of cables, so I used MMCX connectors. They seem to be more durable than the two-pin connectors anyways.
> 
> I did separate the TWFK from the GK - it was a matter of sliding a razor blade between the two drivers. The epoxy they use to hold them together is quite tough! I had to clean the GK's CI off before I could stick the other CI on it. Like I said before, my ears and ear canals are tiny as heck so I had to find a way to make things work.  But with the second CI on it, I still had to deal with the double nozzle issue but sticking a single #12 tube on it wasn't any more difficult than the stock GK setup.
> 
> ...


----------



## piotrus-g

pc27618349 said:


> As a side note, in making the shells, I've found that cleaning any tacky residue from the shell (I used UV nail gel) with acetone is a much better option than using a glycerin bath to do a post-cure of the shells. Using a glycerin post-cure seems to cause random strands of acrylic to cure in random places, resulting in the gritty texture of my shells. I actually peeled off a few layers of acrylic from the inside of my shell because it post-cured while glycerin was underneath and so there was a very thin flat air bubble along the shell. It also once caused the shells to seal themselves shut (with glycerin inside) because the leftover acrylic floated to the top of the shell and cured there. Leaving the tack for cleaning with a bit of acrylic leaves a much cleaner and smoother surface.


 
 After first curing and pouring out uncured material, place it under UV for a 2-3min, then remove the shell from your negative form (avoid touching surface with fingers, use some tweezers) and then place it glycerin and then post-cure for 2-3more minutes. That should solve your problem and should leave no tacky residue.


----------



## Furco

@piotrus-g , did you mean to wire those CI in reverse polarity? I'm sure you did but just wanted confirmation.


----------



## piotrus-g

furco said:


> @piotrus-g , did you mean to wire those CI in reverse polarity? I'm sure you did but just wanted confirmation.


 
 Yes! + and - near the tap is the polarity of the driver and + and - near the wire is polarity of signal
  
 BTW. If you check where the CI pads are on my scheme or where the vent on TWFK is the scheme is pretty much easy - just make sure you positioned the back of the drivers for soldering as on my scheme, and you'll be good to go.


----------



## Furco

Did you want the CI's wired with reverse parity to cut down on their SPL so they're not drowning out the twfk?


----------



## ForceMajeure

> Originally Posted by *Furco* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> 
> Agreed!  That youtube video was very helpful for me to illustrate the effects of a delay in signals.  As you have said, even at 0.5ms, the delay was obvious.   So can we come up with a rule-of-thumb that says something such as:  "*Configurations **that result in a delay (lag or lead) of 10**µs** (microseconds) or larger will cause coherence problems and should be remediated in multi-driver configurations."  *How exactly to deal with the delays remains to be seen.  So if we go back to your example where there's an 83.3µs (0.0833ms) delay caused by a 1st order HP crossover in a multi-driver configuration, that's a problem based on our new rule-of-thumb.   So if 10µs is our theoretical lower limit, I wonder how the frequency response would look  between your example configuration and one where the phase was corrected .   Interesting.....interesting.....interesting.......  I'll have to think about how to test this.


 
  I think there is a way to measure phase in the ARTA software bundle. It includes LIMP, same kind of software as arta that can measure Impedance and Phase of headphone just by running it into some kind of "JIG" made of a simple resistor. That's how ti looks like 
  
 .


> Originally Posted by *Furco* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> This is starting to get a little sticky.  Earlier, I was okay with the concepts about delay being measured in "time" and how that affects the coherence of sound.  Now, we're starting to introduce phase shifts measured in degrees and how that can affect the harmonics .  I'm okay with understanding both "delay" and "phase shifts" as separate and independent influences but now we have to merge the two into a single definition.
> --Cheers


 
 It is not as complicated as it sounds. Phase shift is just a way to represent a time difference between two waves in deg so it can be shown on graphs where the horizontal line is time and vertical line is amplitude (deciblels in our case).  Simple explanation here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKsmqzRFFsk
  
 Also if you play the guitar here is a great video explaining phases in pickups that also illustrate part cancellation. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzghyYl7_60


----------



## ForceMajeure

piotrus-g said:


> Yes! + and - near the tap is the polarity of the driver and + and - near the wire is polarity of signal
> 
> BTW. If you check where the CI pads are on my scheme or where the vent on TWFK is the scheme is pretty much easy - just make sure you positioned the back of the drivers for soldering as on my scheme, and you'll be good to go.


 
 Question:
 1. Do you connect the unfiltered Ci driver to the filtered one directly in reverse polarity so the Low Pass filter is for both CI's simultaneously, if so wouldn't they be cancelling out each other completely?
 2. Or do you connect the unfiltered CI driver in reverse polarity before the low pass circuit of the filtered one so it "kinds of play" with the filtered CI Frequency response by partially adding/or cancelling part of the overall response.
 I hope you understand what I mean..
  
 Also thank you very much for sharing this design.
 Just by looking at this, if the response for my question is 2, it just open so much more possibilities in term of tuning I never thought about. It is like you could play with different values of resistors and caps with two of the same drivers(or even different drivers) and alter the part of the frequency response you want to.
 even invert one driver's polarity so you can get some kind slight cancellation or addition of frequencies in the bass or mid or treble area (depending of the  RC filter/or /dampers and band part you are working on)
 and not knowing the flip polarity effect just by some kind of "educated trial and error" could stumble in a desired sound...
  
 I hope you understand what I mean...


----------



## tranhieu

forcemajeure said:


> I think there is a way to measure phase in the ARTA software bundle. It includes LIMP, same kind of software as arta that can measure Impedance and Phase of headphone just by running it into some kind of "JIG" made of a simple resistor. That's how ti looks like.




I believe that's electrical phase, what furco was referring to was acoustical phase.


----------



## ForceMajeure

tranhieu said:


> I believe that's electrical phase, what furco was referring to was acoustical phase.


 
 You are right, I thought that it measured acoustical phase but it is electrical phase,is there a way to measure the acoustical phase in arta? 
 Or do we need those very expensive scopes to measure it?
  
 Well at least it can measure the impedance that's nice.


----------



## piotrus-g

furco said:


> Did you want the CI's wired with reverse parity to cut down on their SPL so they're not drowning out the twfk?


 
 No, otherwise they would cancel TWFK and mess up the phase.


forcemajeure said:


> Question:
> 1. Do you connect the unfiltered Ci driver to the filtered one directly in reverse polarity so the Low Pass filter is for both CI's simultaneously, if so wouldn't they be cancelling out each other completely?
> 2. Or do you connect the unfiltered CI driver in reverse polarity before the low pass circuit of the filtered one so it "kinds of play" with the filtered CI Frequency response by partially adding/or cancelling part of the overall response.
> I hope you understand what I mean..
> ...


 
 I'm not sure I understood your questions completely so if I don't answer what you are asking about, feel free to ask more.
 1. Low pass is working for only one CI in the scheme above. You want both CI in the same polarity with each other. Otherwise they will cancel bass frequencies. You could definitely do:


> so the Low Pass filter is for both CI's simultaneously


 
 But I would design it differently - I would wire CI in series via low pass filter. FK section of TWFK in full range or by big cap like 20-40uF and WBFK section of TWFK with capacitor around 1uF. However I would expect it to create unwanted dip at 3-5kHz due to phase canceling.
  
 2. You want both unfiltered and filtered CI in the same polarity. Some designers do what you asked about. Mainly such design would look something like HODVTEC in full range + DTEC+high ohm resistor in reversed polarity. Such design would result in moderate midrange level - think ~110dB@500Hz, and lift in sub-bass Think ~115dB@100Hz. While wiring them in the same polarity would result in say 125dB@100Hz and 128dB@500Hz (ok, I'm pulling those numbers out of my @$$ but you get the idea I hope). So as you see matching tweeter to 125dB or more is PITA really - you'd need like 3xTWFK to do this.
 Personally I don't like such wiring (in opposite polarity) it messes mid-range in my opinion. Your brain receives two opposite information in range that your ear is highly sensitive and basically tries to make anything out of it. Sound is a bit echo-y and slightly unsettling.


----------



## ForceMajeure

Ok I think I understand what you mean.
  
 Is this the way you meant for connecting your original design ? 

 If so what is the benefit of connecting both CI in reverse polarity?
  
  


piotrus-g said:


> No, otherwise they would cancel TWFK and mess up the phase.
> I'm not sure I understood your questions completely so if I don't answer what you are asking about, feel free to ask more.
> 1. Low pass is working for only one CI in the scheme above. You want both CI in the same polarity with each other. Otherwise they will cancel bass frequencies. You could definitely do:
> But I would design it differently - *I would wire CI in series via low pass filter. FK section of TWFK in full range or by big cap like 20-40uF and WBFK section of TWFK with capacitor around 1uF. However I would expect it to create unwanted dip at 3-5kHz due to phase canceling.*


 
 Is this how it should look like? Also am I right about the FK and WBFK part? Is it how it should be wired?

  
  


piotrus-g said:


> 2. You want both unfiltered and filtered CI in the same polarity. Some designers do what you asked about. Mainly such design would look something like HODVTEC in full range + DTEC+high ohm resistor in reversed polarity. Such design would result in moderate midrange level - think ~110dB@500Hz, and lift in sub-bass Think ~115dB@100Hz. While wiring them in the same polarity would result in say 125dB@100Hz and 128dB@500Hz (ok, I'm pulling those numbers out of my @$$ but you get the idea I hope). So as you see matching tweeter to 125dB or more is PITA really - you'd need like 3xTWFK to do this.
> Personally I don't like such wiring (in opposite polarity) it messes mid-range in my opinion. Your brain receives two opposite information in range that your ear is highly sensitive and basically tries to make anything out of it. Sound is a bit echo-y and slightly unsettling.


 
  What is the difference between the HODVTEC and the DTEC drivers. Is the HODVTEC just a vented DTEC? Why can't I find any info on it in the knowles website?
 Can I trust the graphs on this datasheet for the HODVTEC?
  
 Also are the graph in this datasheet for the DTEC accurate especially the rising part from 500hz to 1000hz of about 10db? Are there good drivers that can be used for lowmids to highmids/highs with a nice steady rise from ~200hz to 1000hz of about 4db ?


----------



## piotrus-g

forcemajeure said:


> Ok I think I understand what you mean.
> 
> Is this the way you meant for connecting your original design ?
> 
> ...


 
 The first scheme is correct. Yes.
 The second would look like this: sorry for my paint skills



> If so what is the benefit of connecting both CI in reverse polarity?


 
 As I mentioned before - no phase canceling with TWFK.


> What is the difference between the HODVTEC and the DTEC drivers. Is the HODVTEC just a vented DTEC? Why can't I find any info on it in the knowles website?


 
 Yup it's vented DTEC (High Output Dual Vented TEC ?) http://www.knowles.com/eng/Applications/Specialty-components/Hearing-aid-components/Balanced-Armature-Products datasheet: http://www.knowles.com/eng/content/download/5924/103192/version/7/file/Receiver+Datasheet+HODVTEC-31618-000.pdf


> Can I trust the graphs on this datasheet for the HODVTEC?


 
 Yes


> Also are the graph in this datasheet for the DTEC accurate especially the rising part from 500hz to 1000hz of about 10db? Are there good drivers that can be used for lowmids to highmids/highs with a nice steady rise from ~200hz to 1000hz of about 4db ?


 
 This graph is done in different conditions (BTE - hearing aid - setup)
 .
 Here's DTEC 30008 measured in the same conditions as HODVTEC above


----------



## tranhieu

forcemajeure said:


> Or do we need those very expensive scopes to measure it?




In short, yes.


----------



## pc27618349

furco said:


> I think initially a lot of us love the deep dark bass that dynamic drivers provide. I haven't had luck getting that same sound from BA's and I slowly became ok with that and began to appreciate the bass I was hearing even though it's different than what I was used to. I haven't heard any high end IEMs so maybe you can achieve that subwoofer type bass.
> 
> I'm sure the GK crossover question has already been answered already on this forum as to which driver is being x-overed and what the crossover frequency is.
> 
> ...


 
  


piotrus-g said:


> After first curing and pouring out uncured material, place it under UV for a 2-3min, then remove the shell from your negative form (avoid touching surface with fingers, use some tweezers) and then place it glycerin and then post-cure for 2-3more minutes. That should solve your problem and should leave no tacky residue.


 
 I see - I think my mistake was pouring out the uncured material and immediately pouring in the glycerin for the post-cure. I thought the idea was to avoid exposing the resin to the air and so any leftover resin left in the shell when i poured in the glycerin floated around and caused a big mess. Thanks for the clarification.
  
  
  
  


piotrus-g said:


> OK guys,
> 
> here's the "cool" project... ("super cool" will have to wait till it's measured, because I don't want to put up something that doesn't work)
> The design below is quite easy (took me 5min to sketch and it's pretty much bullet proof if you wire it correctly - as in the picture).
> ...


 
 Thanks for the design, piotrus! I'll give it a shot and let you know how things turn out. The great benefit of using this clear polycarbonate faceplate is that the UV acrylic adheres enough to keep it on but the surface is smooth enough for me to pop it off for quick access 
  
 Do you have any recommendations on where to put the dampers in the tubing? Closer to the driver/away from the driver?
  
 Also, if I'm reading it correctly, you're using one CI at full range, one with a low pass, and what does the cap on the TWFK do?


----------



## piotrus-g

pc27618349 said:


> I see - I think my mistake was pouring out the uncured material and immediately pouring in the glycerin for the post-cure. I thought the idea was to avoid exposing the resin to the air and so any leftover resin left in the shell when i poured in the glycerin floated around and caused a big mess. Thanks for the
> Thanks for the design, piotrus! I'll give it a shot and let you know how things turn out. The great benefit of using this clear polycarbonate faceplate is that the UV acrylic adheres enough to keep it on but the surface is smooth enough for me to pop it off for quick access
> 
> Do you have any recommendations on where to put the dampers in the tubing? Closer to the driver/away from the driver?
> ...


 
 Yup, don't be afraid to take time when pouring out material, make sure that shell is empty and then post cure it w/o glycerin, then put whole shell into glycerin, not just inside. After last curing rinse with water then with spray with isopropanol - you'll be good to go.
  
 Put dampers in the middle of tubing, no need to over-complicate it.
 Yes, one CI is working as fullrange and one with low pass. Cap on TWFK works as high-pass filter.


----------



## ForceMajeure

Guys what glue do you recommend for attaching the tubes? I see that Egger (hearing aid supplies) have a cyanoacrylate based glue called uniglue,.. 
Also do you glue the drivers inside the shells so they stay in place?


----------



## pc27618349

piotrus-g said:


> Yup, don't be afraid to take time when pouring out material, make sure that shell is empty and then post cure it w/o glycerin, then put whole shell into glycerin, not just inside. After last curing rinse with water then with spray with isopropanol - you'll be good to go.
> 
> Put dampers in the middle of tubing, no need to over-complicate it.
> Yes, one CI is working as fullrange and one with low pass. Cap on TWFK works as high-pass filter.


 
 I'm in the middle of ordering the components - I'm planning on using a 10 ohm pot + 30 ohm resistor to be able to freely adjust the crossover point for the filtered CI.
  
 Is there a capacitor type that lends itself well for audio applications? I heard tantalums being thrown around this thread but they're rather big for my shells...
  
  


forcemajeure said:


> Guys what glue do you recommend for attaching the tubes? I see that Egger (hearing aid supplies) have a cyanoacrylate based glue called uniglue,..
> Also do you glue the drivers inside the shells so they stay in place?


 
 I've been using the same material I use for the shells to attach the tubes to the drivers (and to the shell). I dab a little on the end of the tube and hold the pieces together under my UV lamp. The trick is to make sure the glue also extends a little around the driver casing (just a few tendrils of glue, not a whole new shell for the driver) so that the glue has something to hold onto.


----------



## Furco

forcemajeure said:


> Guys what glue do you recommend for attaching the tubes? I see that Egger (hearing aid supplies) have a cyanoacrylate based glue called uniglue,..
> Also do you glue the drivers inside the shells so they stay in place?




I've had luck using both thin and thick superglue (cyanoacrylate). I have had mixed success using UV curing gel; it just doesn't hold like cyano does and that's can be a big deal when I'm trying to run the acoustic tubes through tight openings in the IEMs.


----------



## ForceMajeure

So, I have ordered most of the materials I need, I got my hand on yellow(4700ohm), red(2200ohm), green(1500ohm) and white(680ohm) dampers.
  
 Now, I am on the fence about getting grey dampers (330ohms), Do you think they are necessary or their value is too low? Do you guys use them?
  
 Also if there are other dampers colors that are essentials tell me about them?


----------



## tranhieu

Here's how I often use dampers:
  
 For tweeters (>5khz): grey/brown//white 
 For woofers (1.5khz-5khz): brown/white/green/red/orange (in some extreme cases)
 For sub woofers (<1khz): red/orange/yellow
  
 Long story short, just get all the colors.


----------



## Furco

Agreed! You'll thanks yourself later when trying to tune drivers with known dampers as opposed to winging it with homemade/DIY dampers, like me. 



tranhieu said:


> Here's how I often use dampers:
> 
> For tweeters (>5khz): grey/brown//white
> For woofers (1.5khz-5khz): brown/white/green/red/orange (in some extreme cases)
> ...


----------



## ForceMajeure

furco said:


> Agreed! You'll thanks yourself later when trying to tune drivers with known dampers as opposed to winging it with* homemade/DIY dampers, like me. *


 
 I actually thought of doing it 
  
 Today I just ruined a perfectly fine microphone that I intended to use for measurement. Didn't have a chance to use it arghhh...
  
 Its the Dayton imm-6, I put a tight rubber ring (from silicon tube) over it, then another piece of tube with a larger diameter over the ring.
 I tried to pull my little construction back and it just pulled with it the imm-6 tip with the little condenser microphone in it, ripping the wires and pads that was soldered on it... made me  so angry...
 better use blue tack next time to attach the tube to the imm-6.
  
 So people be aware the edge of the imm-6 with the microphone in it is actually glued and is very easy to pull out


----------



## tsn141

@piotrus-g
 I saw some designs, it is a good chance to see a commercial designers design 
 Very interesting and also very different XO approach than mine 
  
 Those are good example for me.

 out of topic:
 How much time do you need to develop a commercial XO or design?


----------



## honame

This that might be of your interest. It actually shows you which tools you need, working temperature and how to properly solder the drivers: http://www.knowles.com/eng/content/download/2783/32742/version/6/file/TB-04.pdf


----------



## Furco

tsn141 said:


> @piotrus-g
> 
> I saw some designs, it is a good chance to see a commercial designers design
> Very interesting and also very different XO approach than mine
> ...




I think what you're asking is for him to reveal his "intellectual property". That's similar to asking the Cocacola company what their recipie for Coke is. 

Development time is largely based on what sound signature you're attempting to achieve and the economics behind manufacturing it.


----------



## piotrus-g

tsn141 said:


> @piotrus-g
> I saw some designs, it is a good chance to see a commercial designers design
> Very interesting and also very different XO approach than mine
> 
> ...


 
 Heh, thanks, I guess  there's probably no "right" or "wrong" here unless you go "all wrong" and end up with one big phase canceling
  
 It really depends on design, but typically few months. It's has to do more with whole sound signature in general, than crossover in itself.


----------



## tsn141

@piotrus-g yes there is not strict true ot false, but there is some big mistakes and bit tricks. Not only iem, all areas of engineering  just know principle, and solve problems. Yes my approach is differant from you but your approach give me another point of view 


I asked the time needed for developing for ı saw you done some designs at very short time, and it is too difficult for a commercial product( not jus one person or puvlic design). Your answer, halp me about that.


----------



## BLaRMan

Hey Guys,

 I 'm pretty new to this thread, but as I was searching on the web for instructions to building a CIEM, I came across this thread at instructbles.com :

 http://www.instructables.com/id/DIY-In-Ear-Monitors/

 It sounds like as if it is a pretty good home made CIEM, but since I am not familiar with the settings used, can you take a look at it and see if it is a appropriate setup?


----------



## Furco

Start small. You need to be successful at creating shells which is a big hurdle to get over. Next you need to know your limits with regards to soldering miniature components. As was said 10 times before, DIY IEMs are not cheapest route but it can be the most rewarding. Follow the Instructables guide for the methods the guy used for the different build phases. For the actual drivers, start cheap with a single driver and then as you gain confidence get more advanced. 

--cheers




blarman said:


> Hey Guys,
> 
> 
> I 'm pretty new to this thread, but as I was searching on the web for instructions to building a CIEM, I came across this thread at instructbles.com :
> ...


----------



## piotrus-g

Hey sports fans! 
 I took some time to measure the previous design. Turns out I was a bit wrong regarding driver connection lol.
  
 Anyways here's updated scheme plus graphs. This will be definitely bass heavy IEM with V shaped sound, but CSD looks pretty clean so the resolution should be quite good IMHO.
 Measurement into IEC711 with 0.1 output impedance with design on the scheme.


----------



## tranhieu

That's one hell of lower treble boost lol


----------



## piotrus-g

Alright here's the second one more fancy, more neutral (still quite fun! but more on the sub-bass side)
 It's 4 way design for those who don't fear soldering since it's more complicated.



 My recommendation ... don't use two CI-22955 if you plan on using only one TWFK


----------



## pc27618349

Yeah, I've discovered the heavy bass of the first design LOL
  
 I ended up using decently high resistor values - 82 ohms on both CI drivers, with a 2.2 uF cap on the TWFK and a 22 uF cap on the filtered CI. This yields a cutoff point for the filtered CI of about 88 Hz, which makes it pretty much a legitimate subwoofer hahah. The resulting signature is pretty balanced with a sub-bass boost. The mids are still a bit wonky (snares don't really sound natural) but are pretty decent nonetheless. 
  
@piotrus-g What program do you use to simulate these graphs? Or did you actually build the setup and run measurements on it?


----------



## MuZo2

Its from ARTA software and measured using iec711 coupler.


----------



## piotrus-g

pc27618349 said:


> Yeah, I've discovered the heavy bass of the first design LOL
> 
> I ended up using decently high resistor values - 82 ohms on both CI drivers, with a 2.2 uF cap on the TWFK and a 22 uF cap on the filtered CI. This yields a cutoff point for the filtered CI of about 88 Hz, which makes it pretty much a legitimate subwoofer hahah. The resulting signature is pretty balanced with a sub-bass boost. The mids are still a bit wonky (snares don't really sound natural) but are pretty decent nonetheless.
> 
> @piotrus-g What program do you use to simulate these graphs? Or did you actually build the setup and run measurements on it?


 
 yeah, my second design has cut of at 75Hz, but you still need to add resistance past the LP to attenuate CI even more. Also, check the new wiring scheme, because in the one I posted few pages back, there was a phase issue which is why the mids are probably what you are describing. Those designs above sound pretty decent unless you after like super-hi-fi sound, though in such case the driver selection may not be right here.
 Overall 2x CI-22960 (easy to buy) could be much better choice here.


----------



## pc27618349

piotrus-g said:


> yeah, my second design has cut of at 75Hz, but you still need to add resistance past the LP to attenuate CI even more. Also, check the new wiring scheme, because in the one I posted few pages back, there was a phase issue which is why the mids are probably what you are describing. Those designs above sound pretty decent unless you after like super-hi-fi sound, though in such case the driver selection may not be right here.
> Overall 2x CI-22960 (easy to buy) could be much better choice here.


 
  
 I see. I just ordered the parts and I'll try out the new crossover. The mids just don't sound right in the first design. Also, I learned my lesson and bought through-hole components rather than trying to squeeze SMD components in a non-SMD application... soldering them was a nightmare. 
  
 I'm guessing that the CI-22960 are better because of their higher impedance?
  
 I already put in the order for the new parts, but would simply flipping the polarity for the TWFK (along with the high-pass cap) on the first design help the odd mids problem?


----------



## wjp007

My latest iteration. After at least five tries, I think I hit the best sound yet. I can honestly say this is the first time I feel my diy customs really sound better than my universals. I used a four driver setup. I never believed anything more than three drivers would make a difference, but I'm surprised how good they sound.
1) CI for base, 10ohm, and two filters (yes two) red 3300, yellow 4700
2) Combo driver from ADDIEM (ED and WBFK) 4.7uF
3) WBFK 1uF

I forgot to put a filter on the WBFK. So they are a bit harsh. My next iteration will be to add a grey filter for the WBFK.
.


----------



## ForceMajeure

wjp007 said:


> My latest iteration. After at least five tries, I think I hit the best sound yet. I can honestly say this is the first time I feel my diy customs really sound better than my universals. I used a four driver setup. I never believed anything more than three drivers would make a difference, but I'm surprised how good they sound.
> 1) CI for base, 10ohm, and two filters (yes two) red 3300, yellow 4700
> 2) Combo driver from ADDIEM (ED and WBFK) 4.7uF
> 3) WBFK 1uF
> ...


 
 Nice, Do you use measurements for tuning? 
 What kind of sound did you achieved, how do they sound like, do you have measurements? 
 How many bores are there? hard to tell from the pic if 2 or 3?
 What material did you use for the shells and faceplates?


----------



## wjp007

I had some thin rosewood veneer I used for the faceplates.  The shells are made of UV adhesive I got on ebay (Kafuter).  Measurements are below.  Fairly flat.


----------



## ForceMajeure

That look good, the rolled of bass is due too lack of seal with the coupler?


----------



## wjp007

forcemajeure said:


> That look good, the rolled of bass is due too lack of seal with the coupler?


 yes, I had to use blue tack for the finished units.


----------



## pc27618349

HOLY COW @piotrus-g the new crossover works wonders. Everything has a realistic timbre to it now - the snare especially sounds much more natural. The soundstage has expanded greatly now and there's a lot more air. The bass has been pulled back, but still has great impact and texture while letting every other part of the spectrum sing - and really being authoritative when called on. The mids are in perfect balance - not recessed yet still giving the bass and treble room to rumble and shine. Thanks for your help!!
  
 The soldering needed for this 4-way was quite insane:


----------



## piotrus-g

Yay! great you were able to solder it. It looks hardcore indeed. I use SMDs so it didn't look as scary 
  
 Anyways I hope you'll enjoy it!


----------



## taiden

Hey  @piotrus-g, do you have any examples of bandpass or lowpass filters?


----------



## piotrus-g

taiden said:


> Hey  @piotrus-g, do you have any examples of bandpass or lowpass filters?


 

 What do you mean by "examples"


----------



## Mython

piotrus-g said:


> taiden said:
> 
> 
> > Hey  @piotrus-g, do you have any examples of bandpass or lowpass filters?
> ...


 
  
  
 Oh,
  
  

Trade secrets.
  

Proprietary information
  

Valuable R&D
  
  
_That_ kind of thing 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
  
 LOL


----------



## taiden

Lol, nope, none of that. I'm trying to write up a quick overview on IEM filters for /r/diems and have very little experience with first order band-pass filters or low pass filters. The common example of a low pass filters makes use of an inductor but I haven't seen any IEMs use one. Any wisdom is much appreciated.


----------



## piotrus-g

taiden said:


> Lol, nope, none of that. I'm trying to write up a quick overview on IEM filters for /r/diems and have very little experience with first order band-pass filters or low pass filters. The common example of a low pass *filters makes use of an inductor but I haven't seen any IEMs use one*. Any wisdom is much appreciated.


 
 Well, there's probably all you need to know in Sonion's brochure http://www.sonion.com/~/media/Files/Academy/Academy_ProAudio__DocCode_304_V_001_Web.ashx including answer to bold portion above.
 1st order LPF can be made by resistor in series and cap parallel to the ground. Just like on scheme I posted few pages back (design no.1, for easier understanding).
  
 I'm also quite sure there's some of this knowledge in @Furco's DIY guide.


----------



## MuZo2

taiden said:


> Lol, nope, none of that. I'm trying to write up a quick overview on IEM filters for /r/diems and have very little experience with first order band-pass filters or low pass filters. The common example of a low pass filters makes use of an inductor but I haven't seen any IEMs use one. Any wisdom is much appreciated.


 

 I wonder what your 3 driver ciem uses? does it use directly 3 driver solutions from Knowles?


----------



## MuZo2

taiden said:


> Hey  @piotrus-g, do you have any examples of bandpass or lowpass filters?


 

 Why don´t you open up custom art harmony and post the schematic on youtube


----------



## taiden

muzo2 said:


> I wonder what your 3 driver ciem uses? does it use directly 3 driver solutions from Knowles?


 
  
 The C3's contents are listed on the site. 
  


muzo2 said:


> Why don´t you open up custom art harmony and post the schematic on youtube


 
  
 Piotr adds a lot to the community, and the Harmony isn't DIY friendly. That's two of many reasons why.


----------



## pc27618349

I just found something fantastic for shell-making:
  
CND Color Additives
  

  
  
 I think that using these in combination with the existing clear UV acrylic we all use (Dreve Fotoplast, Egger UV, UV nail gel) could yield some really interesting results. Using these additives could result in some... Wizard-ry? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I also found a cheaper source for bulk amounts of UV nail gel topcoat. 
  
 What do you guys think?


----------



## ForceMajeure

I started receiving stuff that I ordered, among them some mica powders for nice coloring that I have ordered from aliexpress, pretty cheap 24 color samples of 5 grams each,
awesome stuff. http://www.aliexpress.com/item/24-Colors-Mixed-Healthy-Natural-Mineral-Mica-Powder-DIY-For-Soap-Dye-Soap-Colorant-makeup-and/32373805051.html?spm=2114.031010208.3.10.jq8rs7&ws_ab_test=searchweb201556_2_79_78_77_91_80,searchweb201644_5,searchweb201560_9

Now for using them I think it will be nicer looking painting a coat of uv resin mixed with mica powder inside the shell (which can be transparent or slightly tinted with the matching color) rather than mix it with resin to make the shell. Doing so will yield a nicer result "a la Wizard" if you know what I mean.

 like this 


I will test different method but I think that doing so I will get a nice shine from the outside as in the picture.

I also been looking into some nail art techniques and they have a lot of tricks that can be applied to make faceplates.One of them is using "nail foil" that can be ordered for cheap which have a ton of designs and can be used to mimic a ton of materials...you can look for instructions and video example all over youtube. I have received some foils and will try to mimic this material called carbon fiber shred used to make knife handles and also used as a prestige material buy Noble for their prestige line.


Now I have a question, what kind of wax do you guys recommend for dipping the ear impressions? Is candle wax good, or do I need something special that melts at very high temperatures?


----------



## taiden

I recommend using paraffin wax!


----------



## ForceMajeure

Isn't paraffin wax the same as candle wax? How do you heat it, and at what temperature does it melt?
 Because the agar stuff I bought ("Nicefit" brand hearing aid molding material) have a processing temperature of 47deg celsius.


----------



## taiden

I've seen candles made of bees wax, paraffin wax, and earwax of all things! So I'd say get paraffin wax, so you don't end up with earwax. 
  
 I heat with a waxing pot with a modified thermostat.


----------



## MuZo2

I tried candle wax and was mess.


----------



## tranhieu

Fiy Noble's predecessor used bee wax.


----------



## ForceMajeure

So I just tried to make my own impressions (open mouth  with a toothbrush) and this is the result:
  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  
 I don't know if these are good enough but when I tried to insert them back in my ears to test them it was quite painful. I don't know if some of you tried to reinsert them, I would like to know if this is supposed to be painful.
  
 Also the part bending around the 1st bend is quite thin IMO, is this supposed to be this thin? usually in pictures it look a bit larger than it looks in real life... Will this limit the number of bores that I will be able to make?


----------



## piotrus-g

forcemajeure said:


> So I just tried to make my own impressions (open mouth  with a toothbrush) and this is the result:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 They are quite good. Cut all the excess material like in the picture below


----------



## pc27618349

forcemajeure said:


> I don't know if these are good enough but when I tried to insert them back in my ears to test them it was quite painful. I don't know if some of you tried to reinsert them, I would like to know if this is supposed to be painful.
> 
> Also the part bending around the 1st bend is quite thin IMO, is this supposed to be this thin? usually in pictures it look a bit larger than it looks in real life... Will this limit the number of bores that I will be able to make?


 
  
 They look fantastic!
  
 I tried reinserting mine back into my ears and it was also a struggle and a bit painful (and they were made at an audiologist's office). The portion of the ear canal past the second bend is highly sensitive to anything that touches the ear wall - hence why CIEMs don't go past it. Also, with an untrimmed pair of impressions, the material has to bend quite a bit to be able to push itself through all the bends of your ear canal, pressing and scraping against the sides of your ear canal. After a proper trimming, they should be uncomfortable at worst to re-insert. CIEMs are more comfortable because the acrylic has a smooth surface allowing it to slide freely along the ear canal, whereas silicone impressions are quite grippy.
  
 As long as you have a clear imprint of your ear canal (no roping along the sides), what you get is what you get. Some people have very thin ear canals (like me) and some have gloriously wide ear canals. It looks like your ear canals may be on the smaller side (like mine) but from a quick glance, you should be able to squeeze two bores into it. Mine barely fit two bores.


----------



## Mython

forcemajeure said:


> So I just tried to make my own impressions (open mouth  with a toothbrush) and this is the result:
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> ...


 
  
  
 I think you're _insane_ to do DIY ear impressions, but, having done them, you have achieved an entirely usable result, apparently without personal injury, so congratulations are in order 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Seriously, though - those are perfectly decent impressions. Better than many I've seen posted, that were done by qualified audiologists.


----------



## taiden

muzo2 said:


> I tried candle wax and was mess.


 
  
 Was it earwax?


----------



## taiden

pc27618349 said:


> Some people have very thin ear canals (like me) and some have gloriously wide ear canals. It looks like your ear canals may be on the smaller side (like mine) but from a quick glance, you should be able to squeeze two bores into it. Mine barely fit two bores.


 
  
 That is so true. Some customers have canals that are easily half the diameter of my own. At first I thought it was an error, but it certainly was not.


----------



## Mython

taiden said:


> pc27618349 said:
> 
> 
> > Some people have very thin ear canals (like me) and some have gloriously wide ear canals. It looks like your ear canals may be on the smaller side (like mine) but from a quick glance, you should be able to squeeze two bores into it. Mine barely fit two bores.
> ...


 
  
  
www.head-fi.org/t/684787/noble-audio-the-wizard-returns/4125#post_10560660


----------



## ForceMajeure

Thanks you guys for the reassuring. The process wasn't to difficult to do, I had the right tools though. also this video was really perfect to get a hold of the process.
 I will make more impressions so I can practice the trimming.


----------



## Mython

forcemajeure said:


> Thanks you guys for the reassuring. The process wasn't to difficult to do, I had the right tools though. also this video was really perfect to get a hold of the process.
> I will make more impressions so I can practice the trimming.


 
  
_*Here*_, too.


----------



## ForceMajeure

mython said:


> _*Here*_, too.


 
 Yes definitely, great post you have there!


----------



## Mython

forcemajeure said:


> mython said:
> 
> 
> > _*Here*_, too.
> ...


 
  
  
 Oh, not just me - Sproketz' opening post was good, and MuZo2 posted some good info, too, amongst others.
  
 I know I sound like a broken record, always linking that thread, but it's only because it's a fairly unique thread, here on Head-fi, with a good _illustrative_ overview of the topic.
  
 Anyway, I'm glad you succeeded with your DIY impressions, even though it's not something I'd ever risk doing, myself.


----------



## ForceMajeure

Today I have received other design materials, if you are looking for some mother of pearl

  
here you can find it. it is 4x7cm and good quality.
  
 Also some gold leafs


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Well it's been way too long since I've posted anything, but it's cool to see so many familiar names contributing to the forum still!!

I'm digging all the great schematics and designs. I finished some rough shells today for a small project, I'm planning to close it up with a rosewood face plate, mmcx connectors and a nice triple driver configuration. 

Here is a sneak peak:


----------



## ForceMajeure

Looks good!
 Is it plain blue color (not transparent)?
 What have you used to make it (shell and color)?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

They are blue with white base, I used uv color for the shells then clear top coat over them. 

They are solid not transparent.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Came across this product, just curious if anyone has tried it for shells? Not a bad price for 8oz. Just an alternative to the Dreve, this product claims to be a 100% cure, no residue - I cure in zero oxygen environment but there may still be a few that have the residue issue here on the forum. I ordered one to try it out, easy to get ahold of and I like that it ships in a larger container.


----------



## wormyrocks

Hey - just wondering if there was any compiled knowledge on specific driver combinations, as well as dampers, crossover circuits, and tubing lengths, to make up great sounding IEM configurations. I know there are several large documents full of driver combinations in common use in commercial IEMs, but none of those contain crossover information and they frequently involve drivers not available in small quantities on DigiKey.


----------



## wormyrocks

piotrus-g said:


> My recommendation ... don't use two CI-22955 if you plan on using only one TWFK


 
 Also, in reference to this earlier post - would there be a convenient way to incorporate another TWFK into such a design? That way you could put together a 6-driver IEM for only the cost of 2 GK per side.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

wormyrocks said:


> Hey - just wondering if there was any compiled knowledge on specific driver combinations, as well as dampers, crossover circuits, and tubing lengths, to make up great sounding IEM configurations. I know there are several large documents full of driver combinations in common use in commercial IEMs, but none of those contain crossover information and they frequently involve drivers not available in small quantities on DigiKey.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

@wormyrocks - there are several great examples buried through the 4000 replys here in this forum. 

The above is great just because the knowles drivers are easy to get ahold of unless you are buying 100 at a time from Sonion.


----------



## wormyrocks

shilohsjustice said:


> @wormyrocks - there are several great examples buried through the 4000 replys here in this forum.
> 
> The above is great just because the knowles drivers are easy to get ahold of unless you are buying 100 at a time from Sonion.


 
 Yep, I've seen that and it's super useful, but I'm curious about how all those drivers are getting crossed over (especially the 4-6 driver assemblies in the last section). Are they all just connected in parallel and filtered with dampers?
  
 Edit: also, I just had the idea to do faceplates by buying a pack of exotic veneer samples, CNC'ing a logo, and then inlaying it with turquoise. I posit that it would be quite inexpensive and look amazing. Has anyone done something similar?


----------



## ForceMajeure

wormyrocks said:


> Yep, I've seen that and it's super useful, but I'm curious about how all those drivers are getting crossed over (especially the 4-6 driver assemblies in the last section). Are they all just connected in parallel and filtered with dampers?
> 
> *Edit: also, I just had the idea to do faceplates by buying a pack of exotic veneer samples, CNC'ing a logo, and then inlaying it with turquoise. I posit that it would be quite inexpensive and look amazing. Has anyone done something similar?*


 
 Nice idea, It can look great,  even a black faceplate with thin turquoise veins or any other color. You can buy a ton of different gemstone beads of almost any form for cheap from china and crush them...the problem is that because the faceplate is quite thin in height ~1-2mm, it could be challenging to make the veins deep enough to old the material, also I don't know how much of a nice looking effect it will have if you have to crush the stone very thin, so they fit in the veins. IMO worth trying...


----------



## Mython

wormyrocks said:


> Edit: also, I just had the idea to do faceplates by buying a pack of exotic veneer samples, CNC'ing a logo, and then inlaying it with turquoise. I posit that it would be quite inexpensive and look amazing. Has anyone done something similar?


 
  
  
 If you CNC'd the female outline in the veneer, all the way through its thickness, and then CNC'd the male outline _half_-way through the turquoise (or mother of pearl?), then it'd be quite easy to marry the male and female components together without fiddling with individual fragments.
  
 Just a thought.
  
  
 As you may already be aware, the old-school way of doing marquetry is to stack layers of male/female material, alternating - e.g. m/f/m/f/m/f/m/f/m/f/m/f and fretsaw through the whole stack in one go. This requires an extremely thin blade kerf so that there aren't big glue gaps between the male and female pieces, in the completed marquetry.
  
 However, if you have access to small-scale CNC machinery, then that'd probably be your easiest option, but it's good to know there are other options available, if need be.
  
 As a cabinetmaker, in my younger days, I used to do a lot of work with laser-cut marquetry (this was around 1996, when this was relatively new technology in this particular application). I wasn't doing the laser-cutting - we had a third party do that task, whilst we hand-built the expensive furniture to which the marquetry would then be applied.
  
  
  
 Coming back to CIEMs, I suppose another method would be to simply cut the female outline in veneer, and then just fill the outlined voids with the coloured acrylic resin you're using for the CIEM shells.
  
  
 If you go ahead with your plans, then please post some pics of the finished result, as I'd like to see them


----------



## wormyrocks

I certainly will!
  
 I have access to an Epilog CO2 laser and an Othermill. My thought process was that the easiest way to do the inlays would be to simply mill all the way through a piece of veneer and then set in an epoxy/turquoise paste. I don't imagine the faceplates actually have to be too structurally sound, and this method would allow me to do large batches at a time. It also leaves the door open for inlaying something like gold leaf.
  
 My primary concern is the thickness of the veneer. The "exotic wood samples" kits on eBay are the most affordable and diverse, but they all have veneer that's something like 1/42" thick. I am not sure what the best way is (or if there is a way) to cut all the way through wood this thin. The Othermill has a 1/64" bit, but I am worried that it will simply splinter the wood. The laser cutter wouldn't have that problem, but I anticipate it leaving ugly burns all over the piece.


----------



## taiden

This may be helpful http://www.thinwoods.com/category-s/114.htm


----------



## wormyrocks

Oh awesome, yeah - I was coming to the conclusion that 1/42" was going to be way too thin no matter what.
  
 Is 1/8" quite thick for a faceplate? It seems like it might add some extra bulk (although if it made the headphone thicker, it might be possible to dremel it out to make a little extra room for drivers).


----------



## Mython

wormyrocks said:


> Oh awesome, yeah - I was coming to the conclusion that 1/42" was going to be way too thin no matter what.
> 
> Is 1/8" quite thick for a faceplate? It seems like it might add some extra bulk (although if it made the headphone thicker, it might be possible to dremel it out to make a little extra room for drivers).


 
  
  
 !/8" is a bit thick, after it's been given a thick glossy coat of acrylic CIEM shell lacquer, but it's not an insane thickness...
  
  
 I reckon you could go ahead and rout/mill 1/8" (3mm) wood, inlay it, and then easily sand the completed faceplate to something thinner, and then continue with the acrylic lacquer...


----------



## Mython

wormyrocks said:


> The laser cutter wouldn't have that problem, but I anticipate it leaving ugly burns all over the piece.


 
  
  
 Yes, it is true that lasers _do _leave burn marks on wood. The marquetry I used to use still looked good, but if you looked closely at it, you would be able to see a very thin dark-brown (almost black) outline around each segment of wood veneer.
  
 It depends how fussy you are.


----------



## wormyrocks

Okay, here's my current workflow: I think I'll probably start with some 1/8" parts, laser cut the top, do the inlays, and then sand down the top half to get rid of the burn marks.
  
 I'm no woodworker, so is there any of these or these that you would recommend as being forgiving, nice-looking with a turquoise inlay (we're making bright blue shells) and not prone to burning too much? I also know that some oily woods offgas badly under a laser, so I'll look that up too.


----------



## Mython

wormyrocks said:


> .... I'll probably start with some 1/8" parts, laser cut the top, do the inlays, and then sand down the top half to get rid of the burn marks.


 
  
 Unfortunately the laser burn marks, although quite fine, do continue the entire depth of the cut (i.e. on the entire side-edge of the component). I don't mean to overstate this, because the burn mark is actually very fine, and not too intrusive, but, just so you know, it is all the way, not just the top surface / beginning face of the cut.
  
  


wormyrocks said:


> I'm no woodworker, so is there any of these or these that you would recommend as being forgiving, nice-looking with a turquoise inlay (we're making bright blue shells) and not prone to burning too much? I also know that some oily woods offgas badly under a laser, so I'll look that up too.


 
  
 There are many you could try, with probable success, but for a good chance of decent results, I would personally recommend you try Maple, first. I say this because it is has a nice hard-dense grain, does not split easily, has no particular oil content, etc. etc.   Incidentally, although you're probably not going to rout it, I will mention that the density of maple, with it's fine grain, also makes it an excellent candidate for routing (by relative comparison with many other woods).
  
 It's just a good first option.  If you have success and you'd prefer a different colour, then great; have fun trying all sorts of exotic woods (Purpleheart, *Steamed Pear*, and *Boxwood* also have nice dense grain). But _for the first try_, if it were me, it'd be Maple


----------



## yegoshin

Hello all,
  
 Thank you for a wealth of information. Can someone verify that *Fotoplast-S/IO *can be cured using UV led's?
  
 Here is where I am at so far:
  
IEM%2520-%25201.jpg
IEM%2520-%25202.jpg


----------



## MuZo2

Very nice, pink one came clean and uniform.


----------



## Panohm

yegoshin said:


> Hello all,
> 
> Thank you for a wealth of information. Can someone verify that *Fotoplast-S/IO *can be cured using UV led's?
> 
> ...




What did you use as investment material to make the negatives? I just got a bottle of Fotoplast as well.


----------



## yegoshin

panohm said:


> What did you use as investment material to make the negatives? I just got a bottle of Fotoplast as well.




I used Urethane RTV (TAP Plastics here in the US) for the first negative, then Knox Gelatin for the 2nd negative.
The intermediary positive (green) was made with TAP Clear-Lite Resin and then polished and built up using nail polish.



muzo2 said:


> Very nice, pink one came clean and uniform.




Thank you! Got into this to make a quick (I hear pro labs take 2-3 weeks after receiving impressions) and cheap (umm yea...) IEM's to use on my motorcycle for communications. We'll see how that goes.


EDIT:
Here is my UV chamber, totally got the idea from these 2 posts (1, 2), Thanks guys!

Chamber Pic 1 
Chamber Pic 2


----------



## Silverprout

Hi,
 What a beautiful chamber artwork 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 You've made a very clean work and your chamber is better than mine (a lot easier to build 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)
 But IMHO you should reduce the CYMBA OF CONCHA size for a easier insertion.


----------



## yegoshin

silverprout said:


> But IMHO you should reduce the CYMBA OF CONCHA size for a easier insertion.




Thank you for the suggestion, I am so new to this every single piece of information is sure to help so keep them coming! Especially if you see me doing something wrong. (I did notice I had to pull my ear in different directions just to get the positive master in)

I made a few more positives today out of hard acrylic. I wanted 1 with a longer canal impression to try and shape that a little more properly. Plus I poured in some more short ones for practice. (I used a transparent dye one these this time). Feel free to edit any of the pictures and draw a line for me where you think the CYMBA OF CONCHA part should stop.

Also can anyone suggest the size (gauge) of Litz wire to use to wire up the drivers? 

Here are the pictures from todays efforts:
Pic 1
Pic 2
(sorry I don't have enough forum privileges to post pics directly, I hope to edit my posts when I get those  )


----------



## Silverprout

yegoshin said:


> Thank you for the suggestion, I am so new to this every single piece of information is sure to help so keep them coming! Especially if you see me doing something wrong. (I did notice I had to pull my ear in different directions just to get the positive master in)
> 
> I made a few more positives today out of hard acrylic. I wanted 1 with a longer canal impression to try and shape that a little more properly. Plus I poured in some more short ones for practice. (I used a transparent dye one these this time). Feel free to edit any of the pictures and draw a line for me where you think the CYMBA OF CONCHA part should stop.
> 
> ...


 

 Hum... it is not an exact science, you probably have to perform some tests 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  

  
 If you are an hardcore audiophile you can use the central wire (silver/teflon) of a RG316 cable
 If you aren't you can find standard litz wire on cheap chinese earbuds cables


----------



## MuZo2

yegoshin said:


> EDIT:
> Here is my UV chamber, totally got the idea from these 2 posts (1, 2), Thanks guys!
> 
> Chamber Pic 1
> Chamber Pic 2


 
  
 Thats similar to what I have


----------



## MuZo2

Found a new youtube channel describing all steps
  
 https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCWXuZeT3Iv2lF6MbomSIHOw


----------



## ForceMajeure

muzo2 said:


> Found a new youtube channel describing all steps
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCWXuZeT3Iv2lF6MbomSIHOw


 
 Great vids very detailed, thank you.
 I found this video that I have never seen before with the "impressions butcher" in it, handling ear impressions at Westone. 
  
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7C1Hhm2wCEM


----------



## jbr1971

After a few weeks of research (and complete re-reading of this whole thread) I have finally started to order what I need to tackle this project (UV nail dryer, rotary tool, ballistics gel).
  
 I have decided to make my own shells and re-shell my Westone W4R's as my first project. The current plan is to re-tune them a bit, and add a dynamic driver to the setup to round out the low end more.
  
 The goal is to figure out a build that will come as close to my modded T50RP's as possible. We'll see how that goes.
  
 Thank you to everyone that has contributed to this thread over the years, the amount of information amassed is both overwhelming and inspiring.
  
 Jody


----------



## Silverprout

jbr1971 said:


> I have decided to make my own shells and re-shell my Westone W4R's as my first project. The current plan is to re-tune them a bit, and add a dynamic driver to the setup to round out the low end more.
> 
> Jody


 
  
 Hi,
  
 Well designed BA CIEM are terrific on the lows when designed with a good passive filter... but i've never seen it on any commercial headphones because you must externalize the circuitry...


----------



## raptor18

Hey all
  
 I'm not really new here but want to start creating CIEM 
  
 I've almost read this whole thread and i will probably read it many times. 
  
 My idea is to start mastering creating shells. I will not continue with the electronics until i master creating shells.
  
 I live in Sweden so i think my main issue will be getting goods. I know it's close to Germany so lets hope that will be easy.
  
 Since i make (made) music, i have a lot of good recording gear and microphones. I have the Behringer ECM8000 measuring microphone for the days when i tried to setup good acoustics at home. That's not easy!
  
 I use REW http://www.roomeqwizard.com/ for measurements which is also available for MAC for those who have been asking for MAC Software. It's free, really great and uses Sine Sweeps and noise.
 It's even available for linux!
  
 A tip to my North American friends! It seems you can buy industry hydrocolloid and silicone for the negatives from http://www.nobilium.com/duplicating-materials.html
 Just register to view price. It's not DIY quantities but still wanted to alert people in this thread 
  
 Cheers!


----------



## jbr1971

silverprout said:


> Hi,
> 
> Well designed BA CIEM are terrific on the lows when designed with a good passive filter... but i've never seen it on any commercial headphones because you must externalize the circuitry...


 
  
 I will give it a try just with the BA's out of curiosity to see what kind of sound adjustments I can get with adding acoustic tubing and dampers, before adding the DD's for comparison.
  
 Does anyone know the exact drivers the Westone W4R uses? I am having trouble finding it. As well as the crossover points they use?
  
 Thanks,
  
 Jody


----------



## Silverprout

jbr1971 said:


> I will give it a try just with the BA's out of curiosity to see what kind of sound adjustments I can get with adding acoustic tubing and dampers, before adding the DD's for comparison.
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> ...


 
  
 Tubing and dampers will never get rid of the medium/treble produced by the big BA.
 On all commercial designs the medium produced by the bass driver is bleeding on the whole spectrum.
 In that case increase the bass level always destroy the balance.
 Multi BA literally sounds like a multi driver loudspeaker without crossovers... make them sounding right is a mystery to me.


----------



## piotrus-g

jbr1971 said:


> I will give it a try just with the BA's out of curiosity to see what kind of sound adjustments I can get with adding acoustic tubing and dampers, before adding the DD's for comparison.
> 
> Does anyone know the exact drivers the Westone W4R uses? I am having trouble finding it. As well as the crossover points they use?
> 
> ...


 

 Westone uses proprietary drivers you won't be able to do the exact design so even knowing crossover points you want be able to achieve the same sound with other drivers.


----------



## jbr1971

piotrus-g said:


> Westone uses proprietary drivers you won't be able to do the exact design so even knowing crossover points you want be able to achieve the same sound with other drivers.


 
  
 I have a pair of W4R's that I am going to re-shell. I am trying to figure what drivers they are so I can get a better idea of their properties, along with crossover points, so I can plan the transition better.
  
 Jody


----------



## piotrus-g

jbr1971 said:


> I have a pair of W4R's that I am going to re-shell. I am trying to figure what drivers they are so I can get a better idea of their properties, along with crossover points, so I can plan the transition better.
> 
> Jody


 
 Those are variations of DTEC and TWFK, but as per above it can mean almost anything in propriety drivers.


----------



## taiden

Anyone else feel like those dampers bounce a hundred miles when you drop them?


----------



## jbr1971

piotrus-g said:


> Those are variations of DTEC and TWFK, but as per above it can mean almost anything in propriety drivers.


 
  
 Thank you. That gives me a place to start from at least. It will be interesting to hear where the result ends up.
  
 Jody


----------



## yegoshin

While I am making another set of masters (smaller cymbal of concha) I decided to practice with the fotoplast I received.
I one sentence - Its eons better then UV nail stuff. I am never going back. 

I think I have to adjust the timing as the shell thickness came out to:
2~2.5mm in 40 second exposure
1.5~2mm in 20 second exposure

Dremeling through the closed up canal was a bit sketchy... but I got it done (for practice as well)

The little brochure I got with the fotoplast states 20 seconds for 0.7mm wall thickness.
Hmmmm I think I might have overdone it with the 'radiation chamber' a little bit.... Oh well more practice.
I am considering ordering the Blue fotoplast for left right differentiation, unless someone can suggest a good method for coloring (transparent & opaque) the clear fotoplast.

Maybe after all this effort I'll even attempt at a multi driver setup.

Anyhow here are the pictures from today:
Pic 1
Pic 2
Pic 3
Pic 4


----------



## kaywee23

yegoshin said:


> While I am making another set of masters (smaller cymbal of concha) I decided to practice with the fotoplast I received.
> I one sentence - Its eons better then UV nail stuff. I am never going back.
> 
> I think I have to adjust the timing as the shell thickness came out to:
> ...


 may i know what do you use to get those colors? I was thinking if powder pigments were possible to use for the shells?


----------



## yegoshin

kaywee23 said:


> may i know what do you use to get those colors? I was thinking if powder pigments were possible to use for the shells?




Not counting the very top pink silicone impressions:
The top 2 (green & pink) are my positives so I used nail polish (with a clear over the top) to build up thickness and give it some color so it easy to differentiate.
The middle 2 are the UV nail polish (outer layer clear) raspberry wine. I didn't have enough to fill the mold @ $12 it kinda pricy so they came out really thin (I rolled it around the mold then zapped it with UV)
The bottom 2 are RED Fotoplast S/IO UV Shell Material. Those came out the best IMO. (I need to zap them a little bit less to make them thinner)

I am also currently contemplating with putting the acoustic tube into the the wet FotoPlast (plugging the ends first) in order to avoid having to Dremel the whole canal if my shells are too thick again.

I would love to know if someone has tried pigments of any kind with Fotoplast and if it inhibits the cure. (the youtube video's linked a few posts back suggest you could even get a transparent)


----------



## kaywee23

tried making shells today  my impressions are super small compared to my friend's one though.... is my impression alright though? 
Couldnt wax the impressions.... the wax came out too thick  so i just went forward to make the shells without waxing them... 

On a side note, the powdered pigment thingy came out really chunky :/ and i forgot to take a photo of it...


----------



## ForceMajeure

yegoshin said:


> Not counting the very top pink silicone impressions:
> The top 2 (green & pink) are my positives so I used nail polish (with a clear over the top) to build up thickness and give it some color so it easy to differentiate.
> The middle 2 are the UV nail polish (outer layer clear) raspberry wine. I didn't have enough to fill the mold @ $12 it kinda pricy so they came out really thin (I rolled it around the mold then zapped it with UV)
> The bottom 2 are RED Fotoplast S/IO UV Shell Material. Those came out the best IMO. (I need to zap them a little bit less to make them thinner)
> ...


 
 That's what I have ordered for transparent colors http://world.taobao.com/item/15643835673.htm?fromSite=main&spm=a312a.7700824.w4004-12644885652.4.FNC5ew 
 Here you have some for solid colors http://world.taobao.com/item/40677505752.htm?fromSite=main&spm=a1z0k.7386009.1997989141.8.bK1wvq&_u=s2ekcdiaa479
  
 You can use a very few drops of the solid color paint to get a transparent colored effect. It is recommended to use a few drops, mix it with uv resin and check the results and not use a big quantity.
 Same goes for the transparent colors.
  
 I think you can use regular acrylic paint/oil paint to get the same effect a few drops for transparent colored.
 But I don't know which is more recommended maybe someone knows.
 Regarding curing time, the darker the color the longer it will take. It will be trial and error for every color and different levels of transparency ...


----------



## yegoshin

I'll have to get some clear Fotoplast (I think red is a bit dark to try coloring it more)

Today was great, I managed to complete a set of IEM's. I made new shells from new masters (deeper canal part) & you can see the Masters in the gelatin in the first few pictures then I ripped the gelatin apart after UV curing. The last few pictures show how I made a cap - I rolled out a long bead of wax (Mini Babybel cheese wrapping wax :rolleyes then places the IEM shell down on foil and pressed the wax bead all the way around the shell. Lifted up the shell and filled the form with Fotoplast and then zapped it. The cap came off the foil and perfectly and then you can just pull the wax off. Soon much easier then trying to cut a sliver off the shell IMO.


Pic 1
Pic 2














Final Product first try (I am no pro but the $12 RAB driver sounds as good as any sub $100 earbud I have tried - is that just me?)


----------



## jbr1971

It took a couple of tries, but it looks like the impressions were a success.
  
 I need to do the trimming and smoothing after they cure overnight, then on to figuring out the ballistics gel for moulds.
  
 If anyone sees something amiss, I would appreciate the heads up/education.
  
 Thanks,
  
 Jody


----------



## jbr1971

I stopped by Home Depot this morning and picked up a bunch of formica samples that I might use as faceplates thanks to the great suggestion posted here previously.
  
 I also stopped by a hobby store and came across their dart/dart accessory case. I did not realize how big some dart flights are, and the large assortment of designs that are available (especially online). I have not done any measuring yet, but there is a chance some of the larger flights could be shaped down and used as faceplates with custom designs already printed.
  
 Has anyone tried this previously? I could not find any mention of it in the thread.
  
 Jody


----------



## MuZo2

nice idea, 4cm x 4cm might work.


----------



## wormyrocks

Is anyone interested in group ordering connectors and/or cables from Plastics1?
  
 Apparently their MOQ is 10; I emailed one of their reps and they didn't get back to me but I think that's because I let on that I wasn't a company and wasn't going to be ordering a terribly large number of supplies. 
  
 I would be happy to go in for 4 or 5 cables and sets of connectors if we got the overall price down low enough.


----------



## kaywee23

ive added glitter powder to my shells! 
Ps.. what should i do if theres a hole in the shell? If i cure it further it just gets thicker... i got really uneven thickness for ths shells


----------



## pc27618349

kaywee23 said:


> ive added glitter powder to my shells!
> Ps.. what should i do if theres a hole in the shell? If i cure it further it just gets thicker... i got really uneven thickness for ths shells


 
  
 Nice! They look great!
  
 It depends on how your UV lamp is set up - if possible, it may help to note where the shells are thinnest and try to apply extra light/time to these areas on the next set of shells with something similar to a flashlight. If you're using a UV box, keeping constant rotation of the shells really help with even exposure. If you use any plastics/glass to place the mold on while it is curing in the box, check that the plastic/glass doesn't absorb UV, which would hurt your cure in certain places.


----------



## raptor18

Does anyone know the difference between UV-Polymerization and Acrylic Technique (cold and hot) technique for creating shells?
 Which is is more favorable for us creating CIEM?
  
 I'm up for creating acrylic shells at the moment, not silicone.


----------



## piotrus-g

raptor18 said:


> Does anyone know the difference between UV-Polymerization and Acrylic Technique (cold and hot) technique for creating shells?
> Which is is more favorable for us creating CIEM?
> 
> I'm up for creating acrylic shells at the moment, not silicone.


 

 Hot techniques require oven or microwave which drivers won't survive so you may cross them out.
  
 You could try using cold technique with powder but that will leave you with solid shell that you'd have to process. UV is much easier and faster.


----------



## MIke M

I've done both hot and cold for years. The only reasons for the hot are allergies and putting a real silicone canal on the mold (not just what everyone refers to as a silicone canal). With the hot (heat cure method you will have to hollow the shell manually. With the cold method you don't have that issue but it takes a lot of time to learn how to do it properly for the perfect shell thickness. UV cure is the preferred method by most because it's easier, faster and you can reuse material. Molds made with uv material aren't as durable as molds done properly with the cold pour method.


----------



## ForceMajeure

piotrus-g said:


> Hot techniques require oven or microwave which drivers won't survive so you may cross them out.
> 
> You could try using cold technique with powder but that will leave you with solid shell that you'd have to process. UV is much easier and faster.


 
  


mike m said:


> I've done both hot and cold for years. The only reasons for the hot are allergies and putting a real silicone canal on the mold (not just what everyone refers to as a silicone canal). With the hot (heat cure method you will have to hollow the shell manually. With the cold method you don't have that issue but it takes a lot of time to learn how to do it properly for the perfect shell thickness. UV cure is the preferred method by most because it's easier, faster and you can reuse material. Molds made with uv material aren't as durable as molds done properly with the cold pour method.


 
  
 Thank you guys for the info. It's great to have professional guidance and insights here.
  
 I see this thread is coming alive lately, all of you posting pics and talking about builds really makes me want to start, unfortunately I am waiting for my UV Lamp to arrive from china so I could finally start building something...boy the waiting is a killer
 So far I have gathered everything I need but got hold because of this freaking UV Lamp...I hope it will arrive in working condition soon ...


----------



## raptor18

Very big thanks for the response.
  
 I completely missed that the cold/hot polymerization didn't need UV-Light to harden (polymeraize) and judging all lab videos i've seen from UE, 1964, Westone, all uses UV light to harden to a shell.
  
 So a reason to use cold/hot polymerization is to do a two component shell with the tip as silicone and rest as acrylic? I guess this is not possible with UV-Polymeraztion?
  
 ForceMajeure, i'm in the same boat as you. You will see some more activity from me here now. This is a really fun project.


----------



## MIke M

You can do a soft canal with UV but to put on a true silicone canal (no one does for CIEM's), it has to be done with heat cure acrylic. My advise is to stay away from the soft canals, they are not as durable on UV cured acrylic, besides an acrylic shell can be made to be just as comfortable. 

As far as I know Westone is the only one still using the old cold pour acrylic method entirely (I only do it on special cases). There are only a couple of us around that we're doing this when cold pour was "mainstream", Light cure has taken over.


----------



## MuZo2

New shells


----------



## raptor18

Cool, what material are those made of?


----------



## Silverprout

raptor18 said:


> Cool, what material are those made of?


 
 The right one on the right photo is made of human skin !


----------



## ForceMajeure

MuZo2, What did you use for coloring?
 How many bores you have there?


----------



## MuZo2

Egger on outside and metalic nail color on inside.
 There are no bores yet, just shells.


----------



## raptor18

When coloring, shouldn't we consider the color material to also be ISO compliant to the skin for safety?
 Or are we totally protected with the ISO compliant thick lacquer ?


----------



## MuZo2

because the color is inside the egger shells so I think it should be safe for skin.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

[/quote]





silverprout said:


> 192UV led DIY chamber, 10sec.





@silverprout

I'm working on revamping my Cure Chamber and wanted to know the wiring you did on yours with the Digital Delay Timer. 

Did you use resistors for you LED's?
What is the Heatsink for?

What is hooked up where?

Thank you for your help and support!!!


----------



## wormyrocks

Holy crap, that's amazing,.. I've just been using two of these taped together...


----------



## Silverprout

@silverprout

 I'm working on revamping my Cure Chamber and wanted to know the wiring you did on yours with the Digital Delay Timer.

 Did you use resistors for you LED's?
 What is the Heatsink for?

 What is hooked up where?

 Thank you for your help and support!!![/quote]


 i use *wide angle* uv leds.

 You can use a step down regulator from ebay instead of resistors, and they already have an heatsink


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Playing around today, I had some rosewood in the garage from another project and wanted to see what it would look like as a faceplate. 

Rescued some drivers from a broken set of UM Pro10's. 
The internal wire was salvaged from a $3 pair of earphones from the dollar store. MMCX connector, and no filter. 

Shell - fotoplast and covered with lack 3


----------



## ForceMajeure

What bits do you guys recommend for drilling the bores? I have 2X1.4mm ID and 2.8X2mm ID acoustic tubing.
 What is the best way to drill with a dremel? Diamond burrs, regular drill bits...?


----------



## MuZo2

I have used Diamond burs, drills dont work well at too high rpm.


----------



## Mython

I don't have personal experience of making CIEMs, but I do have many years of experience of modelmaking, in various materials, and I can tell you that standard spiral-flute drill bits can sometimes 'grab' when drilling acrylic (the drill bit suddenly grips too much and tries to travel into the material too rapidly), and this can fracture the acrylic, because waste material cannot be eliminated fast enough to make room for the incoming drill bit). This maybe only happens 5% of the time, but it's a nightmare when it does, so I would personally avoid the risk.
  
 Therefore, a diamond burr might be safer method.
  
 Others may have even better methods.


----------



## Mython

Here is video footage of 64Ears using a HSS or diamond burr for the task:
  
www.youtube.com/watch?v=pu4IuJDuQ-0#t=138
  
  
 ...and one of the videos MuZo2 posted also shows a HSS burr being used for the task:
  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWbSNklTHsU
  
  
 Obviously, if the only burr you have available is _slightly_ too large for your sound tubes, it doesn't matter because you can fill the slight voids using liquid UV acrylic
  
 If you have a choice between HSS burr or diamond burr, then I would choose the diamond burr, because although the HSS burr may cut a bit faster, it still has a slight spiral on it, and there is a _slim_ chance that it could grab like a drill bit. With diamond, you retain maximum control.
  
 If you only have an HSS burr, then it's still much safer than a standard drill bit (because the spiral flutes are so much smaller and more numerous, for any equivalent diameter of bit, and because the frontal profile of a burr is much blunter than that of a drill bit), but be very aware to feed it into the material slowly so that it absolutely cannot grab the material (not just grab it forwards, but grab it sideways).
  

  
 .


----------



## bonebrain

Guys,
  
   So I have dug and dug and am trying to find a source for shell material in North America.  I see everyone talking about Egger and Dreve but don't see many links to locations where folks are buying the material.  Can we put together a list of vendors that people have used in the past that are reliable?  I have multiple broken IEM's around that I want to salvage and create some customer IEM but I am stuck trying to find 'skin' safe material that is sold to the general public.


----------



## xZ3ROx

bonebrain said:


> Guys,
> 
> So I have dug and dug and am trying to find a source for shell material in North America.  I see everyone talking about Egger and Dreve but don't see many links to locations where folks are buying the material.  Can we put together a list of vendors that people have used in the past that are reliable?  I have multiple broken IEM's around that I want to salvage and create some customer IEM but I am stuck trying to find 'skin' safe material that is sold to the general public.


 
  
 this is where I believe mostly everyone gets their *Fotoplast-S/IO *from. http://www.lightningenterprises.com/uvmaterials.html


----------



## Shilohsjustice

bonebrain said:


> Guys,
> 
> So I have dug and dug and am trying to find a source for shell material in North America.  I see everyone talking about Egger and Dreve but don't see many links to locations where folks are buying the material.  Can we put together a list of vendors that people have used in the past that are reliable?  I have multiple broken IEM's around that I want to salvage and create some customer IEM but I am stuck trying to find 'skin' safe material that is sold to the general public.




Lightning Enterprises is a great resource. They sell the fotoplast in smaller containers 100g (3 1/2 oz) for $62 500g (17.6 oz) for $225 

Oaktree Products - Cheaper in price 500g for $148 but it has a 3-5 week lead time.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

forcemajeure said:


> What bits do you guys recommend for drilling the bores? I have 2X1.4mm ID and 2.8X2mm ID acoustic tubing.
> What is the best way to drill with a dremel? Diamond burrs, regular drill bits...?




I have had great results with the following kits:







All the above items can be bought in bulk off of eBay, I clean the stone bits with isopropyl alcohol to remove dust/residue left over from grinding my shells, this stretches the life of the bit out a bit for me.


----------



## MuZo2

One question how much isolation we can expect from ciem? can you hear people around you when musing is not playing?


----------



## Mython

muzo2 said:


> One question how much isolation we can expect from ciem? can you hear people around you when musing is not playing?


 
  
  
 I often see -27db being touted as a 'go-to' figure, in the industry, but Shure seem to think they can go many dbs better than that, with their universals.
  
 And then there's ADEL modules to muddy the water.
  
  
 But, yeah.... generally, I tend to see -26 or -27 db being quoted.
  
 In my CIEM experience (using, not making), I can hear people talking when music is not playing, but it's pretty muffled and I wouldn't hear them if they were deliberately talking quietly. Main benefit for me, in terms of isolation, is when sitting on trains, as it really cuts out a lot of the screeching of the train wheels on the tracks.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

mython said:


> I often see -27db being touted as a 'go-to' figure, in the industry, but Shure seem to think they can go many dbs better than that, with their universals.
> 
> And then there's ADEL modules to muddy the water.
> 
> ...




Also would depend on the length of the CIEM stem, does it extend past the second bend in your ear canal. Shallow sound stem, though sealed, allows more ambient/direct noise. My experience seems deep inserted CIEM's isolate more efficiently but takes time to get used too if you have never tried deep canal monitors. 

Variables such as wall thickness could also be a factor.


----------



## Mython

shilohsjustice said:


> Also would depend on the length of the CIEM stem, does it extend past the second bend in your ear canal. Shallow sound stem, though sealed, allows more ambient/direct noise. My experience seems deep inserted CIEM's isolate more efficiently but takes time to get used too if you have never tried deep canal monitors.
> 
> Variables such as wall thickness could also be a factor.


 
  
  
 Yes, I agree.
  
 I should also add that I personally find silicone CIEMs block out substantially more noise, but there is definitely more than one factor contributing to that, and I _*prefer*_ acrylic CIEMs.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Silly question, does anyone know what colorant material is best for coloring the dreve products (I know lightning enterprises has the colorant) just looking for an alternative. I have used powder pigment (not the best), food colorant is what I've been using with good results. Any help or suggestions would be appreciated. 

Can regular nail polish be mixed with the fotoplast? 
How do the big guys like Wizard get the marblizing look?


----------



## Mython

Food colourant is unlikely to provide much longevity after a few months of exposure to ambient UV (sunlight)


----------



## Mython

shilohsjustice said:


> How do the big guys like Wizard get the marblizing look?


 
  
  
  
 Furco did some marbled CIEM shells:
  
  
www.head-fi.org/t/430688/home-made-iems/3555#post_11460013
  
  
 I can't find the relevant posts right now, but I think I recall some people doing swirls by dragging contrasting colours of acrylic through an existing layer of liquid acrylic using a sharp implement. UV nail gel might be too viscous for this, but I've never played with it so I don't know quite how viscous it is.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

I wonder if Furco's process would be similar to "Wizard's", I've seen the the threads about the nail art marbling, just curious if that's what they are doing. 

Some of the shells are amazing and metallic in color, they are so vibrant in color I'm lead to believe it's an exterior coating/color. Not from the interior.


----------



## Mython

shilohsjustice said:


> I wonder if Furco's process would be similar to "Wizard's", I've seen the the threads about the nail art marbling, just curious if that's what they are doing.
> 
> Some of the shells are amazing and metallic in color, they are so vibrant in color I'm lead to believe it's an exterior coating/color. Not from the interior.


 
  
  
 I suspect the exact method may* vary* quite a bit, because not all marbling is truly the same method or effect, so you'd need to be extremely specific about precisely which effect you wish to replicate - maybe post a pic so we can offer some potential methods...


----------



## Shilohsjustice

mython said:


> I suspect the exact method may *vary* quite a bit, because not all marbling is truly the same method or effect, so you'd need to be extremely specific about precisely which effect you wish to replicate - maybe post a pic so we can offer some potential methods...




Something along the lines of:


----------



## MuZo2

First and last are acrylic, 2nd is wooden, 3rd is wood faceplate with black shell I guess
  
 2nd is made on machine. They are not hand crafted.


----------



## Mython

Shiloh, are you perhaps misinterpreting some with gold flake in the acrylic to be marbling?
  
  
 That last one, for example, is definitely translucent acrylic with real gold flake stirred in before UV hardening.


----------



## MuZo2

Here are woodies I made few yrs back.  (Before Noble did full wooden ciem)


----------



## Mython

If I'm not mistaken, the first one is done using the sharp-implement method I described, where one introduces an acrylic of contrasting colour into an existing pour of acrylic, and carefully drags and swirls it around to _slightly_ mix the two together.
  
 The third one is difficult to see clearly from that picture, but I think it's chunks of real wood embedded in translucent acrylic - kind of a halfway-house between a full acrylic shell and the 90% solid wood shell in picture 2.  I suspect the full wood shells are being done with a small-scale CNC machine (using a digital laser scan of the ear impression, to obtain the co-ordinates), but I haven't paid much attention to their products during the last 18 months or so, so I've little interest in delving deeper.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

It is quite possible and likely that I am mistaken with the images I used, I'm most intrigued by the marbling of the first pair. The first pair I wonder if it is acrylic nail polish done doing the nail art marbling.


----------



## Mython

I have a suspicion that some CIEM makers, when doing shells with intricate patterns like the above swirls, etc., may perhaps be skipping the usual 'wax-dip' stage when they are processing the ear impressions.
  
 My suspicion is that they create the patterned acrylic CIEM shell, as a _*true 1:1*_ to the client's _*un*-dipped _ear impression, and then dip the created CIEM shell in clear UV acrylic, afterwards, to give it a very shiny, vivid, lustrous appearance, and yield approximately the same increase in overall shell exterior volume as would ordinarily be the case when using the usual 'wax-dip' stage during impressions processing.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

mython said:


> I have a suspicion that some CIEM makers, when doing shells with intricate patterns like the above swirls, etc., may perhaps be skipping the usual 'wax-dip' stage when they are processing the ear impressions.
> 
> My suspicion is that they create the patterned acrylic CIEM shell, as a _*true 1:1*_ to the client's _*un*-dipped_ ear impression, and then dip the created CIEM shell in clear UV acrylic, afterwards, to give it a very shiny, vivid, lustrous appearance, and yield approximately the same increase in overall shell exterior volume as would ordinarily be the case when using the usual 'wax-dip' stage during impressions processing.




Great insight, I deviated from the wax coating a while ago because I use acrylic polish in some of my designs to add color, but recently started doing it again. It would make sense for sure to skip the process if they are doing acrylic marbling. I have done a lacquer dip that works well, problem being the lack 3 from dreve over time starts absorbing light and thickening when poured from its vial, even in my make shift lab/garage with no windows. 

I guess the best solution is the nail art marbling for me for the time being until Furco chimes in to confirm his process.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Some good info for all, I searched the thread and do not think its been discussed. (Forgive Me if it has)

I've been corresponding with The team over at lightning enterprises, they suggested (they currently use) tattoo ink for coloring the Dreve Fotoplast. They stated the reason is it is FDA approved for contact with skin, where as other ink is not. 

I ordered some from Amazon Prime for $15 next day arrival. Food for thought.


----------



## MuZo2

good info. But does it dissolve in uv material like egger? what about food color?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

I use food coloring in dreve with good results, yellow seems to be a challenge for me though. 

Worth trying in Egger for sure. I will email Lightning and ask if they are using it in the Egger products as well!


----------



## piotrus-g

mython said:


> I have a suspicion that some CIEM makers, when doing shells with intricate patterns like the above swirls, etc., may perhaps be skipping the usual 'wax-dip' stage when they are processing the ear impressions.
> 
> My suspicion is that they create the patterned acrylic CIEM shell, as a _*true 1:1*_ to the client's _*un*-dipped _ear impression, and then dip the created CIEM shell in clear UV acrylic, afterwards, to give it a very shiny, vivid, lustrous appearance, and yield approximately the same increase in overall shell exterior volume as would ordinarily be the case when using the usual 'wax-dip' stage during impressions processing.


 

 That's not something that would work if you ask me.


----------



## MuZo2

piotrus-g said:


> That's not something that would work if you ask me.


 

 Can you please elaborate, why it wont work?


----------



## piotrus-g

muzo2 said:


> Can you please elaborate, why it wont work?


 
 1. You cannot easily control thickness during such procedure
 2. Uncured material would leave "spots" in places where shell would be more sleek and repel uncured material
 3. what about inside of the shell? dipping would result in flowing of material into hollow shell.
 4. Shiny shell is a result of fine polishing and correct lacquering procedure.


----------



## Mython

piotrus-g said:


> muzo2 said:
> 
> 
> > Can you please elaborate, why it wont work?
> ...


 

 OK, fair enough, but how do you feel the lacquering is accomplished, then?


----------



## raptor18

All CIEM lab tour videos i've seen online, i haven't seen anyone showing the lacquering process. Are they just not showing the process or do some CIEM producers really not lacquer the shells?


----------



## Mython

Just as a precaution, before this topic turns into an avalanche, let me reiterate that I'm not stating that an outer transparent layer is an absolute, confirmed _fact._
  
_Nor_ am I stating that I feel it is standard practice.
  
 I am very well aware that it is generally not done at all - the numerous videos I posted *here* make that very obvious.
  
  
 All I am saying is that I have a *suspicion* that _*some*_ complex shell decorations _*appear - to my eyes*_, to have a thin, outermost, layer of transparent acrylic. Perhaps I am wrong about this (it is possible that they are just highly-polished), but until I _definitely_ know otherwise, I will continue to suspect it


----------



## MuZo2

raptor18 said:


> All CIEM lab tour videos i've seen online, i haven't seen anyone showing the lacquering process. Are they just not showing the process or do some CIEM producers really not lacquer the shells?


 

 Its a very thin layer done mostly at final stages. Its done for ciem and hearing aids. Both for manual uv shells as well as 3d printed.


----------



## MIke M

Every one does it a little different, some polish, some laquer and some do a combination of both. Every lab has their own method on achieving desired fit as well. Play around and find what works for you


----------



## MuZo2

piotrus-g said:


> 1. You cannot easily control thickness during such procedure
> 2. Uncured material would leave "spots" in places where shell would be more sleek and repel uncured material
> 3. what about inside of the shell? dipping would result in flowing of material into hollow shell.
> 4. Shiny shell is a result of fine polishing and correct lacquering procedure.


 

 Actually wax procedure also leaves uneven thickness.
 I have seen lacquer applied with brush evenly only on outsides.


----------



## piotrus-g

mython said:


> Just as a precaution, before this topic turns into an avalanche, let me reiterate that I'm not stating that an outer transparent layer is an absolute, confirmed _fact._
> 
> _Nor_ am I stating that I feel it is standard practice.
> 
> ...


 
 That would make more sense if you made very very thin layer of clear material _in _negative form, pour it out after say 5s in UV chamber and then fill in desired color, but still I would assume such process would leave some uneven coloring.


mython said:


> OK, fair enough, but how do you feel the lacquering is accomplished, then?


 
 sand off shell with 300 paper and you are good to go with lacquer. You can use Fotoplast Lacquer 3 which is very easy to handle.


muzo2 said:


> Actually wax procedure also leaves uneven thickness.
> I have seen lacquer applied with brush evenly only on outsides.


 
 Depends, I could show you some waxed impressions that looks super even, but generally it does create some bumps here and there That's why you have to use sand paper to level it out. Since wax gives you additional thickness you can be pretty liberal with sanding and still achieve tight fit.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

I'm sorry for sparking such enthusiastic conversation around coloring and finishing of shells!

It is also safe to say that wall thickness, quality of waxing, and or colloid quality are extremely dependent on the tools and or materials in which you are using to create your shells. 

I have noticed as I upgrade my material and equipment the quality of my results also improve. Gelatin only took me so far and since moving to the hydrocolloid my investments and shells have been more consistent. Moving from a small nail light to a two light 365nm light actually used in the industry the consistency of my shells has drastically improved. Going from nail uv to fotoplast has taken me even further along my journey. 

I would say talented individuals will achieve results like wizard with just about any resource, but guys like me need good tools to assist in achieving those results. 

My next purchase - pressure tank for removing bubbles in my colloid impressions to allow uv to pass through even more efficiently, also to combat with the inhibitor layer left by the dreve. (I do the glycerin bath cure but still struggle with getting it completely cured, I want them to look crystal clear like some UE's)

I can say for those out there dabbling with making your own CIEM's who have not yet posted comments, invest in some good tools and use the correct product, if you do this out of the gate you will save tons of trial and error because uv nail gel reacts vary different than egger or fotoplast and I had to learn my technique all over again. Good info today!!


----------



## Mython

shilohsjustice said:


> I'm sorry for sparking such enthusiastic conversation around coloring and finishing of shells!


 
  
  
  
 LOL - the _essence_ of what I was getting-at was that a seperate layer of acrylic might be being applied to the exterior of some shells - don't worry, I think Peter was just splitting Heirs hairs! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
  
 (point taken, though, Peter)


----------



## ForceMajeure

shilohsjustice said:


> Something along the lines of:


 
 Those are made from call blanks/acrylic wood turning blanks then are cnc 'd out 
 Here is a video on how those blanks are made
   
 They can also be bought ready made from ebay.
  
 The regular marbling effect is done by pouring different amount of different colored uv resin slowly, one after the other on different places into the mold then with a toothpick make some wave pattern. Same goes if only faceplates want to be done.
  
 For this design   the material used is Krinite   that are cnc'd out also for the entire shell.
 Some  faceplates are also done using the Kirinte blocks (usually this Kirinite is used for making knife handles).
  
 Regarding transparency of the shells, I have received egger uv resin from taobao and made a test shell. The result was a very clear transparent shell with no bubble. The consistency of the uv resin is great for slow pouring eliminating the risk of bubbles (as long as you don't pour at height), same goes for mixing colors I assume, everything must be done slowly to eliminate risks of bubbles.
  
 Because I didn't have enough hydrocolloid molding material I was only able to make one shell, the problem was that my shell came out too big. Although I have trimmed my ear impression with the dremel before coating it with wax it came out too big. Now i am in a dilemma, should I trim more my ear impressions before coating them or do I need to pass the coating process ...I like the wax coating as it make the shell very smooth. What do you guys think?


----------



## raptor18

If we want a pressure pot, maybe we can use cheap pressure sprays.
  
 https://www.google.se/search?q=pressure+spray&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiYne_2otPJAhWJZCYKHdJiAuUQ_AUIBygB&biw=1680&bih=989
  
 The tough part here is finding space inside the pressure spray for the molds  Some of them have big openings though and the molds are really small. We need to figure out how to lower them into the spray.
 They build around 2-3 bar which we need and they are pumped with hands.
  
 This one seems to have a big opening and is 5 euro 
  
 http://www.jula.se/catalog/tradgard/tradgardsredskap/ograsbekampning/trycksprutor/tryckspruta-759004/


----------



## raptor18

shilohsjustice said:


> I'm sorry for sparking such enthusiastic conversation around coloring and finishing of shells!
> 
> It is also safe to say that wall thickness, quality of waxing, and or colloid quality are extremely dependent on the tools and or materials in which you are using to create your shells.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I don't get it, the nail lights are 365 nm?
 http://www.aliexpress.com/item/36w-Eu-Plug-White-And-Pink-Color-Uv-Lamp-Nail-Art-Dryer-Gel-Curing-Light/32407717238.html?spm=2114.01020208.3.47.aOOfA2&ws_ab_test=searchweb201556_1_79_78_77_82_80_62_61,searchweb201644_0,searchweb201560_5
  
 And all the instructions i've read, none of them mentions that colloids needs pressure to form a bubble free mold.
  
 Also, if you read the egger uv LP/H instructions, it says to cure a second time with LP cleaner, which seems to be glycerin. The second method is to use it under nitrogen pressure however it seems as if the first method is the preferred one.


----------



## piotrus-g

shilohsjustice said:


> I'm sorry for sparking such enthusiastic conversation around coloring and finishing of shells!
> 
> It is also safe to say that wall thickness, quality of waxing, and or colloid quality are extremely dependent on the tools and or materials in which you are using to create your shells.
> 
> ...


 

 Seems like you may not be curing correctly. There should be no inhibition layer when the mold is done and pressure pot won't fix that.
 What hydrocoloid you are using?
 What's your curing procedure?


----------



## MuZo2

I have had same problems , I use hydrocoloid which was sold by same company which sold egger products. But its not clear. It affects in shell thickness and some areas in antitragus are not cured.


----------



## raptor18

I also read somewhere to fill the inner shell with glycerin first when it's still in the mold, cure it, then take out the shell, put it in a glycerin bath and cure the whole shell in one shot.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

piotrus-g said:


> Seems like you may not be curing correctly. There should be no inhibition layer when the mold is done and pressure pot won't fix that.
> What hydrocoloid you are using?
> What's your curing procedure?




I am using Krystaloid for my colloid. 
Shell Material - Dreve Fotoplast S/IO shell
I place my investment under UV exposure, cure, remove cured shell from colloid, submerge in glycerin and place under UV again for second cure. 

The pressure chamber is for my experimenting, I have seen on one of the available videos a lab do it. It would also be used to remove the bubbles from mixing custom colors in shell material to cut wait time down after mixing as well as my colloid. 

I don't have a colloid dispenser to keep my colloid liquid, so heat and mix, this traps bubbles that I want gone from my mixture. Could be over kill by getting, just what I want. 

Nail lights are great, I just wanted the durability and consistent of a lab uv cure light. Next I want a cure chamber, it's just my pursuit to upgrade. 

I can't remember where I read it, but Dreve stated there was an inhibition layer post cure and there was a product that cleaned it. The pressure tank would remove oxygen thus allowing a 100% cure. I could introduce nitrogen to replace the oxygen but do not have that readily available.


----------



## piotrus-g

muzo2 said:


> I have had same problems , I use hydrocoloid which was sold by same company which sold egger products. But its not clear. It affects in shell thickness and some areas in antitragus are not cured.


 

 Egger offers 350g cups of gel.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

raptor18 said:


> I also read somewhere to fill the inner shell with glycerin first when it's still in the mold, cure it, then take out the shell, put it in a glycerin bath and cure the whole shell in one shot.


 


I stated that here on the forum almost a year ago as a method that worked for me, I still do that process.


----------



## piotrus-g

shilohsjustice said:


> I am using Krystaloid for my colloid.
> Shell Material - Dreve Fotoplast S/IO shell
> I place my investment under UV exposure, cure, remove cured shell from colloid, submerge in glycerin and place under UV again for second cure.
> 
> ...


 

 1. fill in colloid with material
 2. Cure for suitable time (depends on your light chamber) (black foil on top)
 3. Pour out excess material - take your time and don't rush, the blank can wait few mintus for material to drip out
 4. cure the shell for about 3-5min
 5. remove the shell from negative form
 6. place the shell in gliceryn bath
 7. Cure for another 3-5min
 8. remove the shell from bath
 9. clean hollow blank with isoproponol (ultrasonic cleaner will give you awesome results)
 During this procedure avoid touching inside of the shell.
  
 If you are still getting cracks shell may require longer exposure in UV. Alternatively - cure those parts prior to pouring material into the negative mold


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Shilohsjustice said:
			
		

> .
> 
> JUST STARTED DOING THE FOLLOWING ON LAST FEW SHELLS -- I turn the gelatin mold and shell so the opening is up and I just filled to top with dawn dish soap, put back in under UV light and cured inside again, NO RESIDUE MADE FOR EASY COMPONENT INSTALL!!
> 
> I remove from mold and completely submerge the shell into glycerin and put the cup, glycerin, and shell submerged back under the light. PERFECTLY CURED SHELL!!





I found the post I did for me technique, one year ago exactly tomorrow. 

I no longer use topcoat for my shell material.


----------



## raptor18

shilohsjustice said:


> I am using Krystaloid for my colloid.
> Shell Material - Dreve Fotoplast S/IO shell
> I place my investment under UV exposure, cure, remove cured shell from colloid, submerge in glycerin and place under UV again for second cure.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Are you talking about the westone lab tour video where they place the colloid with two shells inside a pressure tank? Be aware that they are cold curing it so they don't use uv light! That's a totally different procedure!
 Thanks Mike M for making me realize it 
  
 Edit: I also want a pressure pot so i can laborate with the cold cure silicone process


----------



## Shilohsjustice

raptor18 said:


> Are you talking about the westone lab tour video where they place the colloid with two shells inside a pressure tank? Be aware that they are cold curing it so they don't use uv light! That's a totally different procedure!
> Thanks Mike M for making me realize it
> 
> Edit: I also want a pressure pot so i can laborate with the cold cure silicone process




I don't recall where I seen it, it's just a variable I want to try to determine if it works for me, if it doesn't I can write it off the list. 

We all should realize what makes this forum fun and enjoyable is the fact we are all visionaries and are willing to experiment with trial and error. Please do not get caught up in the idea that if it wasn't seen on a video from a CIEM manufacturing company than its wrong. Experimenting is what we do, pioneering is still do be done in the process!


----------



## raptor18

shilohsjustice said:


> I don't recall where I seen it, it's just a variable I want to try to determine if it works for me, if it doesn't I can write it off the list.
> 
> We all should realize what makes this forum fun and enjoyable is the fact we are all visionaries and are willing to experiment with trial and error. Please do not get caught up in the idea that if it wasn't seen on a video from a CIEM manufacturing company than its wrong. Experimenting is what we do, pioneering is still do be done in the process!


 
  
 Fully agree! I would love to try it myself, only problem is that the pressure pot is expensive  So we want to try to solve it without having to paying for extra gear. If we can't, then we have to be creative to either build one or buy one.
 I agree, this is really fun!


----------



## piotrus-g

shilohsjustice said:


> I don't recall where I seen it, it's just a variable I want to try to determine if it works for me, if it doesn't I can write it off the list.
> 
> We all should realize what makes this forum fun and enjoyable is the fact we are all visionaries and are willing to experiment with trial and error. Please do not get caught up in the idea that if it wasn't seen on a video from a CIEM manufacturing company than its wrong. Experimenting is what we do, pioneering is still do be done in the process!


 
 Definitely, just take from others' expirience, which can save you time and money


----------



## MuZo2

Peter can you please explain following
 "Alternatively - cure those parts prior to pouring material into the negative mold"


----------



## piotrus-g

muzo2 said:


> Peter can you please explain following
> "Alternatively - cure those parts prior to pouring material into the negative mold"


 

 Use a small instrument like wax knife to place few drops of material where you are getting cracks, cure it in UV chamber (w/o cover on the negative form) then delicatley fill in mold with acrylic material, place foil on top and cure it in UV chamber at regular time setting.


----------



## MuZo2

Antitragus area is quiet tricky, material dont stand , it just runs into concha or canal.


----------



## piotrus-g

muzo2 said:


> Antitragus area is quiet tricky, material dont stand , it just runs into concha or canal.


 

 You have to be quick. You can always do it drop by drop, it would be time consuming but will work.


----------



## Mython

shilohsjustice said:


> We all should realize what makes this forum fun and enjoyable is the fact we are all visionaries and are willing to experiment with trial and error. Please do not get caught up in the idea that if it wasn't seen on a video from a CIEM manufacturing company than its wrong. Experimenting is what we do, pioneering is still do be done in the process!


 
  
  
 Quote:


piotrus-g said:


> muzo2 said:
> 
> 
> > Antitragus area is quiet tricky, material dont stand , it just runs into concha or canal.
> ...


 
  
  
  
 Sigh! - you're both not being visionary enough about this! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
  
  
 I'm disappointed that no CIEM-maker has yet fitted a UV lamp assembly within a _*non*-heated_ 2-axis Rotational moulding apparatus.
  
 You'd need to seal the open end of the colloid mould, affix it securely within the apparatus, and would need to slice-off the acrylic faceplate to release the uncured fluid within the CIEM shell, afterwards, but _just think of the fun you could have!_





 
  
  
  
  
_Just to be clear - I'm joking!_


----------



## piotrus-g

that seems like a cool thing


----------



## raptor18

Hey guys. How about lipstick. Would that be possible? Considering it is made to be in contact with skin and can have some really nice colors


----------



## grushaaa

http://www58.atwiki.jp/diyociem/pages/16.html
 I think for home this technology more better and not very expensive. You need epoxy resin magic crystal 3d and silicone mold material


----------



## Mython

grushaaa said:


> http://www58.atwiki.jp/diyociem/pages/16.html
> I think for home this technology more better and not very expensive. You need epoxy resin magic crystal 3d and silicone mold material


 
  
  
 I am unfamiliar with that particular brand of epoxy resin.
  
 However, I do know that many epoxy resins contain bisphenol-A (which is extremely carcinogenic), so one would need to carefully check, with a very reliable and trustworthy source, as to whether that epoxy is free of such chemicals or close equivalents.


----------



## grushaaa

*Pebeo* Crystal Resin or magic crystal 3d its epoxy resin for jewelry, good european material


----------



## ForceMajeure

raptor18 said:


> Hey guys. How about lipstick. Would that be possible? Considering it is made to be in contact with skin and can have some really nice colors


 
 I don't know how you can dissolve it evenly within the resin as it have a thick consistency. Also lipsticks contain waxes and oils in addition to color pigments so I don't know how the result will look like once you managed to dissolve it evenly. Regarding the hypoallergenic properties of lipsticks, the fact that a lipsticks is hypoallergenic doesn't make it allergy proof, some components may trigger irritation and worse...(beewax, carmine, lanoline, seafood derivatives and other animal byproduts)


----------



## ForceMajeure

Regarding the shine, I have some Egger lacquer but I am also interested to see the results of a buffing process.
 Have you tried it? If so, as I have a Dremel, what buffing bit do you recommends also what buffing compound is adequate?
 Because I am a noob regarding all of this I see that there's a buffing compound called Jeweller’s Rouge but there are also different colors...what is the appropriate way to do this buffing thing?
  
 A few posts back I asked this 
 ... the problem was that my shell came out too big. Although I have trimmed my ear impression with the dremel before coating it with wax it came out too big. Now i am in a dilemma, should I trim more my ear impressions before coating them or do I need to pass the coating process ...How much do you trim your impressions?


----------



## MuZo2

I think after buffing they use lacquer. I have tried wet and paste for buffing but results were poor.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

muzo2 said:


> I think after buffing they use lacquer. I have tried wet and paste for buffing but results were poor.






I used a table top buffer, paid $39 at harbor freight tools, I use blue compound used for buffing plastics and acrylic. I will buff after the laquer coating. For me the laquer isn't really a build up more than a thin coating. If your waxing your impressions regulate the temperature to control the wax thickness when dipping. The hotter your wax the thinner the coating. 

A trade trick the hearing aid industry uses to smooth out impressions before waxing or before creating the investment (mold). Use DAP glazing compound on your silicone impression to smooth out imperfections. 



I tried this and it works extremely well in smoothing your impressions before waxing, they come out extremely smooth. I at first tossed the idea of waxing but found it is a great step to create awesome smooth shells. You can use 400+ grit sand paper to sand the surface and buffing after will give a great glass like surface.


----------



## piotrus-g

shilohsjustice said:


> I will buff after the laquer coating


 
 Don't do that. You'll damage the lacquer layer and you won't get better polish than lacquer.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

This pair I made does not have a laquer coat, it was just buffed on the face plate because I wanted an opaque affect on the rest of my shell. I've tried buffing with the dremel and found the small bits and the rpms were too much which is why I switched to a table top buffer. Below is some results I had. 

Fotoplast colored with green food coloring.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

piotrus-g said:


> Don't do that. You'll damage the lacquer layer and you won't get better polish than lacquer.




Thank you for the heads up!!


----------



## Mython

Perhaps I just overlooked it, but I don't recall Lear's semi-hard shell material being discussed here in the DIY CIEM thread:
  
  
www.head-fi.org/t/770532/introducing-lears-semi-hard-shell-material-for-ciems-or-re-shells


----------



## raptor18

To all who has problems with their colloids.
 I read that the melting temperature is around 94 degrees and processing temperature is around 47 degrees celsius.
  
 As i understand it, we need to melt it first at 94 degrees C and we don't want to heat it too much either or it will loose its transparency, then cool down to around 47 degrees, then pour in to make a mold.


----------



## piotrus-g

raptor18 said:


> To all who has problems with their colloids.
> I read that the melting temperature is around 94 degrees and processing temperature is around 47 degrees celsius.
> 
> As i understand it, we need to melt it first at 94 degrees C and we don't want to heat it too much either or it will loose its transparency, then cool down to around 47 degrees, then pour in to make a mold.


 
 yes that's how it works


----------



## raptor18

Does anyone have a clue what the blue light tube is for in the professional uv light units sold by the big manufacturers?
  
 http://dentamid.dreve.de/media/uploads/anleitungen/Polylux_PT_Anleitung_GB.PDF
  
 This unit has 2 UVA bulbs and one blue light bulb?
  
 Its the same from the other manufacturers.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Dreve supplies UV material for the Dental field, the unit in question is used in that industry and the blue light tube enmities a higher nm wavelength 400-500nm which is too high for hollow shells. They use these units when making parts and some are much thicker in nature.


----------



## raptor18

Check the Egger catalogue
  
 https://egger-labor.de/enplace/1101/files/E_Katalog_2013_web.pdf
  
 EL1, EL2 and EL3 all have blue fluorescent light tubes.
  
 Maybe they use EL1 - EL3 for the dental industry too to cure dental parts?
  
 Edit: Egger does not have dental products?


----------



## piotrus-g

raptor18 said:


> Does anyone have a clue what the blue light tube is for in the professional uv light units sold by the big manufacturers?
> 
> http://dentamid.dreve.de/media/uploads/anleitungen/Polylux_PT_Anleitung_GB.PDF
> 
> ...


 
 osram deluxe s UVa or UVc depending on model


----------



## Shilohsjustice

It does state in the catalog that the "light source is switchable", it would appear that it possible the blue light would be a post cure with nitrogen or the egger glycerin or for laquer coating, or it possible that it is used to cure thicker shell parts in the hearing aid industry as there are many types of shells and configurations manufactured. 

I haven't had as much experience with the egger as the Dreve but have tried different curing wave lengths and found anything over the 365nm was extremely touchy with cure times and I had trouble getting my shells a uniform 2-3mm.


----------



## ForceMajeure

I have tried to insert a regular Knwoles damper into a 1.5mm ID tube and it was so difficult I couldn't make it pass the entrance of the tube...
 At first I couldn't even insert it so I had to enlarge the opening of the tube using a heated pair of tweezers (heated with a lighter for a few second then inserted into the tube opening to enlarge it). After I managed to make the hole slightly bigger I managed to insert the damper but couldn't make it slide any further...
  
 Now I know that the dampers have ~2mm diameter and the tube I am trying to insert it in have a 1.5mm ID but I am quite sure I have seen it done on CIEMS before.
 I saw for example here some kind of workaround using a small part 2mm ID tube just for the damper and attach it to the 1.5mm ID tube.
  
 I would like to know if there is a technique to do it? or some kind of special tool being used?
 As far as I know multiple bores CIEMS use a 1.5mm ID tubing (right?) and sometimes one of this bore may have a bigger 2mm ID tube so how do they manage to insert the dampers into those 1.5mm ID tubes?


----------



## raptor18

I am very confused now. Check the picture which is from the Egger EL 2 manual (wrong caption on the picture).  If you also check their Egger EL3 which is for curing Lacquers, they use UVA.
 The Egger EL2 does have a switch for the two levels. Obviously the UV Resin needs both lights? Is that the problem so many has? Not curing correctly because of missing blue lights?
  

  
 Edit: Manual to Egger EL2
 http://egger-labor.de/enplace/1101/pdf/en/51210a.pdf


----------



## Shilohsjustice

forcemajeure said:


> I have tried to insert a regular Knwoles damper into a 1.5mm ID tube and it was so difficult I couldn't make it pass the entrance of the tube...
> At first I couldn't even insert it so I had to enlarge the opening of the tube using a heated pair of tweezers (heated with a lighter for a few second then inserted into the tube opening to enlarge it). After I managed to make the hole slightly bigger I managed to insert the damper but couldn't make it slide any further...
> 
> Now I know that the dampers have ~2mm diameter and the tube I am trying to insert it in have a 1.5mm ID but I am quite sure I have seen it done on CIEMS before.
> ...




Great question, the process in the video is the process I have seen used as well, makes it impossible to try different dampers as the damper tool won't work in that situation. I am curious about this as well. Maybe Peter has some insight that could shed some light. 

I use #13 tubing which has 1.9mm ID perfect for knowles dampers as they are easy to insert but stay put. I have done 3 bore projects with #13 tubing.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

raptor18 said:


> I am very confused now. Check the picture which is from the Egger EL 2 manual (wrong caption on the picture).  If you also check their Egger EL3 which is for curing Lacquers, they use UVA.
> The Egger EL2 does have a switch for the two levels. Obviously the UV Resin needs both lights? Is that the problem so many has? Not curing correctly because of missing blue lights?
> 
> 
> ...




My information will need to be tested or corrected as I have most of my experience using Fotoplast S/IO. I don't recall the issues some are having with the shells but I do know that free radical polymerization happens with dreve leaving an inhibition/tack layer due to un-cured polymer from the presence of oxygen. This is common and not from incorrectly curing and happens with Fotoplast S/IO, can be wiped with alcohol wipes or post cured in glycerin bath. The industry as stated in Dreves catalog uses nitrogen to replace oxygen in the cure process. 



People using the egger products may be having problems due to the lack of the blue light, I know that the wave length on the blue lights are between 400nm - 500nm. I'll do some more reading and see if I can pull up some info about the egger blue light mystery.


----------



## taiden

You can argon purge a small area with Bloxygen. It works, but is expensive.
  
 Also, I switched to using #13 for the whole run. The arrangement showed in my video works well if you really need the small diameter tubing at the tip. I'm not sold on it though, so if anyone knows of a better method I'm all ears.


----------



## MuZo2

With egger its same, you need to do second UV curing with glycerin bath.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

So doing a little reading it states that the Egger Units are good for ALL Egger UV Polymerizing product. BTE, ITE, Protection, some of the different uv product may require a different wave length to influence polymerization. In reading the Egger Process it does specify that switching light source is necessary in certain processes and "too me" specifically in postcure process. Emailing them would probably yield best answer relating to the use of blue light.
  
 Is there anyone on the forum using the Egger in professional IEM applications that could chime in?


----------



## Silverprout

You should perhaps download their product datasheet.
  
 Example : on the Loctite 3921 datasheet


----------



## Shilohsjustice

raptor18 said:


> I am very confused now. Check the picture which is from the Egger EL 2 manual (wrong caption on the picture).  If you also check their Egger EL3 which is for curing Lacquers, they use UVA.
> The Egger EL2 does have a switch for the two levels. Obviously the UV Resin needs both lights? Is that the problem so many has? Not curing correctly because of missing blue lights?
> 
> 
> ...




Clarification for all, I just received email from Karolina Weimeir from Egger Sales department. This is what she stated: 

Dear Darren,

thank you very much for your e-mail!

You are right, our UV curing units use both types of light, UV light and Blue light.

UV light is used for curing transparent materials or surfaces, whereas blue light is needed for coloured materials.

The difference is the wave length of the light.

For any questions, please do not hesitate to contact us!

Kind regards

Karolina

With best regards/ Mit freundlichen Gruessen,

Karolina Weimeir

- International Sales -


----------



## raptor18

Wow! Great Shilohsjustice!
  
 This means one thing, most of us probably needs the Blue lights! Really strange that they don't state this anywhere.
  
 Now we need to figure out exactly which those blue lights are.
  
 Edit: Another question is if they use both lights simultaneously for both colors 
  
 Regards
 Jan


----------



## Shilohsjustice

raptor18 said:


> Now we need to figure out exactly which those blue lights are.
> 
> Edit: Another question is if they use both lights simultaneously for both colors
> 
> ...


 
  
 I know you can get:

  
 9 watt fluorescent Visible lamp - UV 470nm output tubes from Lightning Enterprises for $15 plus shipping. This wave length is the same range as the "blue light" which would penetrate better on colored shells.
  
 ~I can buy the Egger bulbs from Warner Tech-Care, but they are $42.52 per bulb.
  
 Some of the UV Nail Cure Units using LED UV emit higher  than "365nm" ranges which sounds like they would be a good prospect as well.
  
 Interesting information for sure!
  
 I would say based on wave intensity you would use one light source or the other, not both at the same time, as higher wave length cures the transparent material really fast, unless you are manually hollowing your shells anyways.


----------



## piotrus-g

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Osram-9W-78-Dulux-UVA/dp/B003UCY4CA


----------



## Shilohsjustice

For those of you that want buying options in the US for the Blue Bulbs for curing solid color shells.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Peter, in looking at the Osram bulbs they are not UVB like the Egger bulbs. They are UVA bulbs, is there a difference as it doesn't state what wave length they are at.


----------



## raptor18

The blue light is 400 - 500 nm. Check the dreve link I posted above about polylux 500. If you all read it you will realize even the dreve products such as the fotoplast would benefit from. I will turn the uv nail light device upside down. Find some see through plexiglas. Place it above the lower bulbs, and replace those bulbs with blue lights. Then cure


----------



## Silverprout

IMHO the right color wavelength is 365nmfor the resin, the blue light is here to correct the polarisation of the pigment color.
 And this correction totally depends of the color of this pigment... blue will only correct a orange pigment no ?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

silverprout said:


> IMHO the right color wavelength is 365nmfor the resin, the blue light is here to correct the polarisation of the pigment color.
> And this correction totally depends of the color of this pigment... blue will only correct a orange pigment no ?




According to Egger blue light causes uv polymerization in colored shells. Transparent color shells will still polymerize under 365nm, solid color or darker colors would need a higher wavelength to penetrate through to make .3-1.2mm shell.


----------



## piotrus-g

shilohsjustice said:


> Peter, in looking at the Osram bulbs they are not UVB like the Egger bulbs. They are UVA bulbs, is there a difference as it doesn't state what wave length they are at.


 
 Well, EL-1 unit comes with _all _Osram bulbs and those are generic bulbs you can buy in any a bit more specialized store. So $45 is waaay too much


----------



## ForceMajeure

Here is a brochure for Sonion drivers I've never seen before
 http://www.sonion.com/Products/~/media/Files/Applications/Sonion_Pro_Audio_Brochure_Web.ashx


----------



## MuZo2

Great, thanks. Though its nearly impossible to get those for DIY purposes. Some are on taobao.


----------



## raptor18

A word of advice
  
 I've read that Glass and some acrylic will not let through UV light. So when we do a Glycerin (or Glycerol) bath for our shells, the UV might not pass through the glass and cannot reach the shell.
  
 I'm trying to find Acrylic which passes UV light through but it's not easy to know if the specific acrylic does it or not.
 Glass however seem to absorb most UV light.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

raptor18 said:


> A word of advice
> 
> I've read that Glass and some acrylic will not let through UV light. So when we do a Glycerin (or Glycerol) bath for our shells, the UV might not pass through the glass and cannot reach the shell.
> 
> ...




Great point!!


----------



## Shilohsjustice

I tried out some new techniques today, here is a sneak peak at some shells I made. I am extremely pleased with how smooth and clear these came out!

I used orange liquid fabric dye from hobby store for the orange shell.


----------



## xZ3ROx

shilohsjustice said:


> I tried out some new techniques today, here is a sneak peak at some shells I made. I am extremely pleased with how smooth and clear these came out!
> 
> I used orange liquid fabric dye from hobby store for the orange shell.


 
  
 RIT Dye?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

xz3rox said:


> RIT Dye?




Yes it is RIT dye.


----------



## ForceMajeure

shilohsjustice said:


> I tried out some new techniques today, here is a sneak peak at some shells I made. I am extremely pleased with how smooth and clear these came out!
> 
> I used orange liquid fabric dye from hobby store for the orange shell.


 
 Nice.
 What resin did you use, Dreve fotoplast?
 Did you use the glycerin bath for 5min and another cure after it for another 5min? Have you overcome the tackiness?
 They look shiny did you lacquered them?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

forcemajeure said:


> Nice.
> What resin did you use, Dreve fotoplast?
> Did you use the glycerin bath for 5min and another cure after it for another 5min? Have you overcome the tackiness?
> They look shiny did you lacquered them?




They are made with Fotoplast, I tried something different based on some articles I've been reading from the hearing aid industry. 

I coated my silicone impressions with the Dreve Laquer instead of the wax dip, this by far has been the best breakthrough for me in achieving almost perfect shells. 

I cured under uv light for 40sec then while still in my investment I filled the hollow shell with glycerin, then let it sit under my uv light for about 5-10min, removed from investment then into a glycerin bath. I let them sit longer than usual as I had to pick my daughter up from the bus stop, about 20min. I then post washed them in alcohol, no more tacky/inhibition layer. 

I through some GK drivers in the clear shells and made a face plate from stabilized spalted burl. Oh I've also changed to the round female mmcx connectors instead of the previous oval shaped surface mount ones, result is amazing!! I just drill my hole and it fits perfectly and looks finished with little effort.

The picture below is with laquer. The pictures I posted of the hollow shells are without.


----------



## ForceMajeure

When you said you left them for 20 min bath in glycerin, was it under UV lights?
 This wood plate looks really good.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

forcemajeure said:


> When you said you left them for 20 min bath in glycerin, was it under UV lights?
> This wood plate looks really good.




Yes, I removed the shells from the investment, put each in a small plastic cup, filled up over the shells with glycerin and back under the uv light they went.

Another trick for consistent shells; if you are using a nail light and it has the removable tray on the bottom, take it out and use a mirror there instead, it reflects better than the tray can.


----------



## MuZo2

Shells look great.
 One note dont let the shells over cure, it can damage acrylic also sometimes they become yellow.


----------



## raptor18

They look great!
 And how do they sound?


----------



## MuZo2

I would like to carve ciem from


----------



## Shilohsjustice

muzo2 said:


> Shells look great.
> One note dont let the shells over cure, it can damage acrylic also sometimes they become yellow.




Good point, I have had this happen when I've left shells under the uv by themselves. I haven't had them turn yellow since switching over to fotoplast and doing post cure in glycerin. 

Also remember, if you are using the dreve laquer it has a slight yellowish hue. The more layers you put on the more you can see it. It even mentions the yellowish hue in the instructions from dreve.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

raptor18 said:


> They look great!
> And how do they sound?




They sound great. I like the knowles GK drivers because right out the package they are consistent and sound awesome, I did throw a 1.5k ohm green acoustic damper into the mix which shaped the sound a bit better to my liking.

I'm using a Linum BaX iem cable which also gives me more bass compared to other IEM cables. I can get them for $36 and like them better than some of the high dollar cables I have used.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

muzo2 said:


> I would like to carve ciem from




shells would look awesome done with that!!! If you do them, I can't wait to see pictures!!


----------



## MuZo2

I haven't bought it , its 59 Euros for that piece.


----------



## mattmatt

Hi! May I ask a few questions? 
  
 1. Can you guys guide me on how to cut my impressions within the canal. should I pass the 2nd bend or cut right in along the 2nd bend? Drawing a line on my photo would be great! 
  





  
 2. Anybody tried casting a shell out of sugru. Here's my idea, create a mold, spread in sugru along the mold (creating a hollow shell) with some thick sides so I can put little nuts. Cut a faceplate from plexiglas or acrylic sheet and screw em on the shell or prolly stick it with sugru again. The MMCX socket will also be glued onto the sheet so the sheet will hold the stress and not the silicone
  
 I will use sf.5 Pro and will use its silicone casing. I would go with a single bore design. The idea is to seal the silicone casing of the BAs to the hollow canal so the set up will be as:
  
 BA1 > silicone casing tube > damper > hollow canal
 BA2 > silicone casing tube > damper > hollow canal
  




  
 so BA1 and BA2 will share the hollow canal that will serve as the sound tube. 
  
 The reason for this setup is that I can't source out sound tubes that is particularly used for this project so yeah!


----------



## piotrus-g

mattmatt said:


> Hi! May I ask a few questions?
> 
> 1. Can you guys guide me on how to cut my impressions within the canal. should I pass the 2nd bend or cut right in along the 2nd bend? Drawing a line on my photo would be great!


----------



## mattmatt

Thank you piotrus-g


----------



## audioxxx

mattmatt said:


> Hi! May I ask a few questions?
> 
> 1. Can you guys guide me on how to cut my impressions within the canal. should I pass the 2nd bend or cut right in along the 2nd bend? Drawing a line on my photo would be great!
> 
> ...


----------



## Silverprout

audioxxx said:


> A source where I got my acoustic tubing,:
> 
> http://diy.vibrolabs.com/products/acoustic-tubing
> 
> ...


 

 Wow 10$ per foot (0.30m)... i can have 100m at this price


----------



## audioxxx

silverprout said:


> Wow 10$ per foot (0.30m)... i can have 100m at this price:evil:




Yes it is quite a profit margin going on there , but I also could not find the audio tubing anywhere, and you do recieve a tiny piece of the smaller diameter tubing along side to insert the damper, and attach it to the BA. 
As compensation for the $ flogging.


----------



## raptor18

I want to create a master negative of my ear impressions so i don't have to do any more ear impressions. Will i loose resolution if i create new impressions out of the master negative? It's like recoding a mp3 file 
 And if i want to create a new set of ear impressions from my negative form, what material should i use? Just use some ear impressions silicone but in the negative instead of my ears ?


----------



## MuZo2

raptor18 said:


> I want to create a master negative of my ear impressions so i don't have to do any more ear impressions. Will i loose resolution if i create new impressions out of the master negative? It's like recoding a mp3 file
> And if i want to create a new set of ear impressions from my negative form, what material should i use? Just use some ear impressions silicone but in the negative instead of my ears ?


 

 If you have perfect fitting ciem from a current mold(mold/negative shouldn't be to old if its from hydrocolloid) , just make master impression from UV nail acrylic. Don't use silicone which you used for ear impression as they change in few weeks time.


----------



## raptor18

oh, make an impression from the master negative with uv nail acrylic to later process for fit and after create a hydrocolloid with them? I'll try that.


----------



## mattmatt

Hey, may I ask if anyone of you sand your acrylic shell? If you do or you don't. How do you get them really smooth? How do you polish them and buff them, with compound or with another coat?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

I made some CIEM's for my wife today, figured I would share my results. She wanted something to listen to music while working out, her last pair kept falling out. 







Shells and faceplate are fotoplast with glitter mixed in. 

Single driver setup, with green acoustic damper. Salvaged the drivers from an abandoned project from when I started making iem's.


----------



## audioxxx

^ They look great. 

It's a good idea to involve the Mrs.
I will build my Mrs a pair as well, once I get the hang of creating these.

 These UV colours for the outer face plate could be handy to add some colour on the next batch, where it's not in contact with skin? 

eBay: http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=231407136830&alt=web 

Not sure they will combine with photoplast, but I think they will.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

audioxxx said:


> ^ They look great.
> 
> It's a good idea to involve the Mrs.
> I will build my Mrs a pair as well, once I get the hang of creating these.
> ...




Good idea with the uv color, worth a try mixing with the fotoplast. If you coat with laquer fro dreve it would be fine for the whole shell. I've been doing them for awhile now and surprisingly my wife has always been scared of me doing the silicone impressions, I told her I could make them sparklie and she finally said yes, lol.


----------



## audioxxx

shilohsjustice said:


> Good idea with the uv color, worth a try mixing with the fotoplast. If you coat with laquer fro dreve it would be fine for the whole shell. I've been doing them for awhile now and surprisingly my wife has always been scared of me doing the silicone impressions, I told her I could make them sparklie and she finally said yes, lol.




Haha, sparkly is a winner. 

I could imagine if you set a 1 carrot diamond in the face plate, with some 24 carrot gold flickers, and a 4 way crossover with 8BA per side. 

She would be very pleased with the very shiny upgrade.

Lady gaga & Madonna will want to put an order in.


----------



## MuZo2

audioxxx said:


> Haha, sparkly is a winner.
> 
> I could imagine if you set a 1 carrot diamond in the face plate, with some 24 carrot gold flickers,* and a 4 way crossover with 8BA per side.*
> 
> ...


 
  
 Why do you need that? she would be happy with gold flakes and diamond ..
 4way 8BA whats that why did you spend money on that may be you could add more gold or diamonds..


----------



## audioxxx

muzo2 said:


> Why do you need that? she would be happy with gold flakes and diamond ..
> 4way 8BA whats that why did you spend money on that may be you could add more gold or diamonds..:tongue_smile:



Very true, I guess to keep the specs inline with the pricing of these fantasy iem's.


----------



## ForceMajeure

shilohsjustice said:


> Good idea with the uv color, worth a try mixing with the fotoplast. If you coat with laquer fro dreve it would be fine for the whole shell. I've been doing them for awhile now and surprisingly my wife has always been scared of me doing the silicone impressions, I told her I could make them sparklie and she finally said yes, lol.


  

  
 As soon as I saw the picture of the Mrs, I asked myself how he has been able to convince her into doing ear impressions...then I thought she probably have it done by a professional sometime ago...now you actually said that you have just done them! I must say you are certainly persuasive or she is surely courageous.


----------



## Flukes

Hello, I've been trying to emulate the Shure se846 in an* universal shell* and there were some questions I was wondering about the drivers.
  
 Since it's impossible to get the customized Sonion drivers, I've picked out the Knowles alternatives which are:
 Hodvtec (Sub woofer), BK (Midrange), and the ED (Treble) drivers.
 But I was wondering if it is better to change the BK for a CI or even a DTEC?
 I was also wondering if I could add an extra WBFK with the ED for upper treble presence? Or should I just take both out in favor of the SWFK?
 By the way I was planning the crossovers around 200 and 2000.
  
 My final question is how to emulate the se846's sub woofer performance? (Especially the ~75hz roll off)
 I was thinking of having a long tubing >12mm? and small diameter <1.5mm? with a 4700 damper at the end of the tubing.


----------



## MuZo2

flukes said:


> Hello, I've been trying to emulate the Shure se846 in an* universal shell* and there were some questions I was wondering about the drivers.
> 
> Since it's impossible to get the customized Sonion drivers, I've picked out the Knowles alternatives which are:
> Hodvtec (Sub woofer), BK (Midrange), and the ED (Treble) drivers.
> ...


 

 Is it going to be your first build? start with simple design. I think above will be too complex design to get it right. You will also need measurement device.


----------



## Silverprout

flukes said:


> My final question is how to emulate the se846's sub woofer performance? (Especially the ~75hz roll off)
> I was thinking of having a long tubing >12mm? and small diameter <1.5mm? with a 4700 damper at the end of the tubing.


 
  
_My final question is how to emulate the se846's sub woofer performance? (Especially the ~75hz roll off)_
 Impossible to put the crossover in the shell (this is why Shure uses their own acoustic dampers).
  
_I was thinking of having a long tubing >12mm? and small diameter <1.5mm? with a 4700 damper at the end of the tubing._
 It don't work regardless lenght, diameters and damper impedance (this is why Shure uses their own acoustic dampers).
  
*This is what look like what you want to do : (24dB Linkwitz-Riley @80Hz)*


----------



## tranhieu

^ So many caps in the signal path lol


----------



## Silverprout

tranhieu said:


> ^ So many caps in the signal path lol


 

 And ???
 Could you explain a little more... i've used 4 caps instead of one because the circuit has a better look with little Muse ES caps... 
 My others prototypes are not as beautiful with only one Pana SU cap.


----------



## tranhieu

Ah no, sorry if my post was uncalled for. It's just my personal belief that the less passive components there are, the better. Just keep the signal path as clean as possible.

Of course yours is way better than the conventional 2/3 way passive filters.


----------



## Silverprout

tranhieu said:


> Ah no, sorry if my post was uncalled for. It's just my personal belief that the less passive components there are, the better. Just keep the signal path as clean as possible.
> 
> Of course yours is way better than the conventional 2/3 way passive filters.


 

 You are not totally wrong.
 But the benefits are huge... no more bass drivers midrange bleeding.


----------



## raptor18

Thats absolutely massive silverprout. You should be proud! Looks great. Is there any CIEM maker that does third order or more as slope (18 db/octave)?


----------



## Silverprout

raptor18 said:


> Thats absolutely massive silverprout. You should be proud! Looks great. Is there any CIEM maker that does third order or more as slope (18 db/octave)?


 

 No, because you need the big external filter with pretty heavy ferrite core coils (50Gr).


----------



## raptor18

silverprout said:


> No, because you need the big external filter with pretty heavy ferrite core coils (50Gr).




Ok. Cool. I haven't come to the stage designing drivers and crossovers but I'm curious as hell and want to be a little prepared for the electrical design stage . 
While we are at the slope discussion, which slope order is the most common one? First or second? How common is second order slope?


----------



## Xymordos

I've used a really long and thin silicon tube (50mm length, 0.5mm diameter) to make a low pass filter before. It worked really well and the tube was extremely flexible and you can just squeeze it inside the shell. The effect is very apparently too.


----------



## Silverprout

raptor18 said:


> Ok. Cool. I haven't come to the stage designing drivers and crossovers but I'm curious as hell and want to be a little prepared for the electrical design stage
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 4
  


xymordos said:


> I've used a really long and thin silicon tube (50mm length, 0.5mm diameter) to make a low pass filter before. It worked really well and the tube was extremely flexible and you can just squeeze it inside the shell. The effect is very apparently too.


 
  
 It don't work for me (the attenuation is poor), even with tested Ø0.1, Ø0.2, Ø0.3, Ø0.4 ,Ø0.5 and a lot of lenght between 10mm to 200mm... silicone, PVC and teflon tubing.


----------



## Flukes

silverprout said:


> 4
> 
> 
> It don't work for me (the attenuation is poor), even with tested Ø0.1, Ø0.2, Ø0.3, Ø0.4 ,Ø0.5 and a lot of lenght between 10mm to 200mm... silicone, PVC and teflon tubing.


 

 Well, I thought the Shure se846 acoustic filter was pretty much really long tubing as seen by the exploded view of them.
http://cdn.shure.com/brochure/upload/105/SE846-exploded-view-english.pdf.
  


silverprout said:


> No, because you need the big external filter with pretty heavy ferrite core coils (50Gr).


 

 Doesn't JH audio use 4th order in their custom and universal variants of the Siren series?


----------



## piotrus-g

raptor18 said:


> Thats absolutely massive silverprout. You should be proud! Looks great. Is there any CIEM maker that does third order or more as slope (18 db/octave)?


 
 JH Audio with 4th order in Roxanne, Rosie, Angie and Layla?
  


silverprout said:


> It don't work for me (the attenuation is poor), even with tested Ø0.1, Ø0.2, Ø0.3, Ø0.4 ,Ø0.5 and a lot of lenght between 10mm to 200mm... silicone, PVC and teflon tubing.


 
 How it's possible that 0.1 or 0.2 didn't work? 10mmx0.1m would give you hell of a low pass.


----------



## Xymordos

Strange...it worked really well for me too, and the bass was actually too much when I tried it without any passive components. It was a nice steep slope too!


----------



## raptor18

@Silverprout
Plea forgive me but I don't understand the answer 4. 4 db/octave?

@piotr
Which CIEM Makers do third order?
And how does JH fit electronics for a 4th order? As I understand, it would require physically big components?


----------



## Silverprout

piotrus-g said:


> JH Audio with 4th order in Roxanne, Rosie, Angie and Layla?
> 
> How it's possible that 0.1 or 0.2 didn't work? 10mmx0.1m would give you hell of a low pass.


 
  
  


xymordos said:


> Strange...it worked really well for me too, and the bass was actually too much when I tried it without any passive components. It was a nice steep slope too!


 

 Perhaps i'm wrong, i should perform new tests.
 But i'm very curious that BA manufacturers uses expensive textile dampers instead of simple drilled blocks.


----------



## ForceMajeure

The low pass filter is not the tube but the in  "C" part in the exploded view, you can see it explained in this 
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9qmtRcUWM0
  
 Quote:


flukes said:


> Well, I thought the Shure se846 acoustic filter was pretty much really long tubing as seen by the exploded view of them.
> http://cdn.shure.com/brochure/upload/105/SE846-exploded-view-english.pdf.


----------



## Flukes

forcemajeure said:


>


 

 Yea, the last page shows the filter represented by E, but I'm just saying that a long tubing would be an equivalent? to the Shure's acoustic filter.


----------



## raptor18

I don't get it. I thought you wanted to filter before the driver so the driver doesn't have to play unprefereable frequncies.

Edit: I will need to do some reading on audio design


----------



## Silverprout

forcemajeure said:


> The low pass filter is not the tube but the in  "C" part in the exploded view, you can see it explained in this
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9qmtRcUWM0


 

 Someone has measured the result of this tortured tube ?
  
 In my desings i absolutely need an munimum attenuation of 35-40dB @ 800Hz


----------



## ForceMajeure

I am not sure if I am right, but if you take the the impedance graph compared to the frequency part you can usually see where the crossover take place (because of the nature of BAs you can see impedance swing)
 for example
 http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/ShureSE846WhiteFilterSample2.pdf
  

  
 Apparently the first crossover is at 200hz, then looking at the drop in frequency response graph at 200hz seems to be around 8db 
 the second crossover is around 2khz
  
 Here is another cool pic from the se846 thread


----------



## tranhieu

I have some 846 drivers lying around. If anyone interested I can have a look at its xo, though it should be nothing but conventional Butterworth again.


----------



## mattmatt

Hey guys, just want to know if this would a good idea for DIY shells. I've read from marozie's instructable that he used smooth on crystal clear resin and dipped in into nail polish which I've read is not ISO 10993. So instead of using nail polish how about using CA Adhesive or Super Glue which I read can be used with wounds. Also watched Heisenberg do it. Breaking Bad. Would that be a good idea in order to have hypoallergenic shells?


----------



## Silverprout

mattmatt said:


> Hey guys, just want to know if this would a good idea for DIY shells. I've read from marozie's instructable that he used smooth on crystal clear resin and dipped in into nail polish which I've read is not ISO 10993. So instead of using nail polish how about using CA Adhesive or Super Glue which I read can be used with wounds. Also watched Heisenberg do it. Breaking Bad. Would that be a good idea in order to have hypoallergenic shells?


 

 Cyanoacrylate is an adhesive glue, not a structural resin, you should experience retraction problems.
  
  
 There were a lot of imperfections in my test rig (very, very fast measurements) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
*Dynamic driver*
 green : 10mm filterless Ø1.5mm
 purple : 20mm filterless Ø0.1mm
 Blue : 10mm filterless Ø1.5mm (+Xover)


----------



## Silverprout

With an very very old 22955 (from my trashbin) and improvised coupler.
  
 10ohm serial 22955
 clear blue : 10mm filterless Ø1.5mm
 orange : 20mm filterless Ø0.1mm
 deep blue : 10mm filterless Ø1.5mm (+Xover)


----------



## Flukes

silverprout said:


> With an very very old 22955 (from my trashbin) and improvised coupler.
> 
> 10ohm serial 22955
> clear blue : 10mm filterless Ø1.5mm
> ...


 

 Would you be able to replicate the dynamic driver (purple) with the CI? Maybe using a longer tube or dampers?


----------



## Silverprout

flukes said:


> Would you be able to replicate the dynamic driver (purple) with the CI? Maybe using a longer tube or dampers?


 
 IMHO a damper should reduce only a bit the spike... about 6 or 8dB (it is just a thin piece of cloth and the tube impedance is already too high), and the tube is very long (20mm), more should exhibit phase / impedance / integration issues.
 All the way : the attenuation is near to 0dB @ 800Hz, way too high for my application.


----------



## Flukes

Then I'm assuming a crossover is the only thing that can imitate the response?


----------



## Silverprout

flukes said:


> Then I'm assuming a crossover is the only thing that can imitate the response?



You can use a ported BA


----------



## Flukes

silverprout said:


> You can use a ported BA


 
 Are there ported CIs, or the Hodvtec the only option?
 Or can I just poke a hole on the CI like on the Sonion 2000
http://www.sonion.com/Products/Transducers/Receivers/~/media/Files/Products/Data%20Sheets/Transducers/Receivers/Receivers%201700-1800-1900-2000/Receiver%202000/2094_v1nn.ashx


----------



## Silverprout

flukes said:


> Are there ported CIs, or the Hodvtec the only option?
> Or can I just poke a hole on the CI like on the Sonion 2000
> http://www.sonion.com/Products/Transducers/Receivers/~/media/Files/Products/Data%20Sheets/Transducers/Receivers/Receivers%201700-1800-1900-2000/Receiver%202000/2094_v1nn.ashx


 
  
 The BA are apparently designed for a maximum tube impedance of 4700 ohm... there is a risk of degrading drastically some of their characteristics by exceeding this impedance.

 Ported BA are designed to use the internal volume of the shell to improve the lows... they are able to achieve a darkish sound with thunderous sub bass without using exotic and aleatory designs.

 You should perhaps ask to a manufacturer conception engineer about the pertinence of a ultra high impedance tube.


----------



## Xymordos

Which is a possible reason why Lear chose to use the "long tube" design on dual dynamic drivers for their lows rather than BAs.


----------



## Silverprout

xymordos said:


> Which is a possible reason why Lear chose to use the "long tube" design on dual dynamic drivers for their lows rather than BAs.


 

 The other solution is using a LRA with quarter waves signals... it requires no crossover and no tubes... work great !


----------



## Walderstorn

silverprout said:


> _My final question is how to emulate the se846's sub woofer performance? (Especially the ~75hz roll off)_
> Impossible to put the crossover in the shell (this is why Shure uses their own acoustic dampers).
> 
> _I was thinking of having a long tubing >12mm? and small diameter <1.5mm? with a 4700 damper at the end of the tubing._
> ...


 
  
 I have no idea what any of that is but the iems look gr8 lol.


----------



## Silverprout

walderstorn said:


> I have no idea what any of that is but the iems look gr8 lol.


 

 Thx ,but It is a special application under developpement for partially disabled ears, the principal objective is to sum up and redirect frequencies under 150 Hz into various devices and it don't work all all with ineffective filters.

 if you're looking for the ultimate sub bass response you should look at big dynamic drivers like the future sonics mg6pro, they are naturally darkish.


----------



## Walderstorn

silverprout said:


> Thx ,but It is a special application under developpement for partially disabled ears, the principal objective is to sum up and redirect frequencies under 150 Hz into various devices and it don't work all all with ineffective filters.
> 
> if you're looking for the ultimate sub bass response you should look at big dynamic drivers like the future sonics mg6pro, they are naturally darkish.


 
 That seems like a great application.
  
 Im not a iem kind of guy even though i appreciate it, but my hifi money (which is not much btw) is going for my desktop rig. I only have some rha 750i and jvc fxt200 ^^ CIEM are way above my budget eheh


----------



## Silverprout

walderstorn said:


> That seems like a great application.
> 
> Im not a iem kind of guy even though i appreciate it, but my hifi money (which is not much btw) is going for my desktop rig. I only have some rha 750i and jvc fxt200 ^^ CIEM are way above my budget eheh


 
  
 I'm sorry for your budget problems... Why Can't Everyone Be Rich ? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 The main problem is not the bass quantity but the extreme pressure applied directly into the ears canals (stressing way too much our fragile internals)

 I must admit that i find the bass rendering of all headphones pretty mediocre and the CIEMs bass rendering absolutely awful...
  
 No satisfaction !


----------



## grushaaa

Hello guys. I want build second order 3 way crossover. I found good calculator for low pass and high pass its formula fc=*1*/*2peiRC, *here: http://www.learningaboutelectronics.com/Articles/Low-pass-filter-calculator.php 
 So, i see for high pass filter i take resistance of my high driver but for low pass filter i dont take but use resistor in chain without this low pass filter dont work, yes?
 And what formula for band pass filter because here two capacitor in chain. 
 Thank you.
 Happy New Year.


----------



## Mython

_Dunno if this has been posted, as I unsubscribed from the thread for a while._
  
  
  
  
 Some people like to use multiple DDs rather than BAs:
  
 (video isn't great, but you get the idea...)


----------



## Silverprout

grushaaa said:


> Hello guys. I want build second order 3 way crossover. I found good calculator for low pass and high pass its formula fc=*1*/*2peiRC, *here: http://www.learningaboutelectronics.com/Articles/Low-pass-filter-calculator.php
> So, i see for high pass filter i take resistance of my high driver but for low pass filter i dont take but use resistor in chain without this low pass filter dont work, yes?
> And what formula for band pass filter because here two capacitor in chain.
> Thank you.
> Happy New Year.


 

 Hello,
 You should not use RC filters on audio transducers... because adding a serial resistive load undamp them.


----------



## Mython

silverprout said:


> Hello,
> You should not use RC filters on audio transducers... because adding a serial resistive load undamp them.


 
  
  
 Does the same apply to the use of an inline resistive load inserted between a DAP and a sensitive pair of CIEMs?
  
  
  
  
  
  
 Incidentally, whilst I certainly don't claim to understand the underlying technicalities, I have subjectively experienced, first-hand, a very undesirable change in signature when driving a pair of UM Miracle CIEMs from a DAP with too high an output impedance (resulted in splashy, grainy treble and rolled-off bass response).


----------



## Silverprout

mython said:


> _Dunno if this has been posted, as I unsubscribed from the thread for a while._
> 
> 
> 
> ...




  
 Wow, it's a fast guy 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 You can also design and bulid your own drivers.


----------



## Silverprout

mython said:


> Does the same apply to the use of an inline resistive load inserted between a DAP and a sensitive pair of CIEMs?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Every component have an influence.


----------



## Mython

Example:
  
 http://pro.ultimateears.com/adjustable-ambient-filters-196
  
  
 I've been discussing this today, with a couple of other head-fiers, and the consensus is that some find it helpful in reducing hiss, with very sensitive CIEMs, but, although we don't necessarily dispute it's ability to reduce hiss, others (myself included) have misgivings about undermining the purity and integrity of the playback chain.


----------



## Hutnicks

mython said:


> Example:
> 
> http://pro.ultimateears.com/adjustable-ambient-filters-196
> 
> ...


 

 You might want to pop over to the ER4 thread. Etymotic uses a similar adapter to this to go from the ER4P to ER4S. It's effects are well documented there.


----------



## Mython

hutnicks said:


> mython said:
> 
> 
> > Example:
> ...


 
  
  
  
 True, but the ER4P is only a single armature - still relevant, but perhaps not to the same degree as multi-BA CIEMs


----------



## Silverprout

It's a Lpad... and works with all IEMS.


----------



## Mython

silverprout said:


> It's a Lpad... and works with all IEMS.


 
  
  
 LOL - yes I realise that it can work with all IEMs - my distinction pertained to probable greater unevenness in frequency response when used with a multi-BA design than when used with a single BA.
  
 More opportunity for things to go awry, thus giving CIEM-buyers *and* CIEM-designers sleepless nights!


----------



## ForceMajeure

silverprout said:


> Wow, it's a fast guy
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 What is this? Did you made this? How? What? 
 Is this two drivers cancelling one the other on some freqs...?


----------



## Silverprout

forcemajeure said:


> What is this? Did you made this? How? What?
> Is this two drivers cancelling one the other on some freqs...?


 

 It is a 3mm LRA prototype , the two coils are working together and optimised to the magnetic pattern of the magnets
  
 I'm trying to remove the bass drivers from my ciems in order to use bone conduction for the lowest octaves


----------



## ForceMajeure

silverprout said:


> It is a 3mm LRA prototype , the two coils are working together and optimised to the magnetic pattern of the magnets
> 
> I'm trying to remove the bass drivers from my ciems in order to use bone conduction for the lowest octaves


 
 Well, I have just checked this site for more information about LRA http://www.precisionmicrodrives.com/vibrating-vibrator-vibration-motors/linear-resonant-actuator-lra-haptic-vibration-motors ...interesting stuff.
 Have you tried it? How are the bass frequencies using bone conduction? How does it feel like? Can you differentiate between various low frequencies, say 125hz vs 40 hz?


----------



## Silverprout

forcemajeure said:


> Well, I have just checked this site for more information about LRA http://www.precisionmicrodrives.com/vibrating-vibrator-vibration-motors/linear-resonant-actuator-lra-haptic-vibration-motors ...interesting stuff.
> Have you tried it? How are the bass frequencies using bone conduction? How does it feel like? Can you differentiate between various low frequencies, say 125hz vs 40 hz?


 
  
 Traditional LRA are optimized to have a peak resonance around 200Hz.
  
_*"How are the bass frequencies using bone conduction? How does it feel like?" *_i'm working on it ! (very very personnal feeling IMHO)
  
 It requires the highest degree of customisation.
  

 *Mechanoreceptor *
 *Best at Sensing (Modality)*
 *Frequency Range*
 Merkel’s Cells
 Pressure (slower movements)
 0.4 - 100 Hz (5 - 15 Hz peak)
 Ruffini Ending
 Pressure (slower movements)
 7 Hz
 Meissner’s Corpuscle
 Touch (faster movements), Vibration
 10 - 200 Hz (10 - 50 peak)
 Pacinian Corpuscle 
 Vibration
 40 - 800 Hz (200 - 300 Hz peak)


----------



## ForceMajeure

Well, you are definitely taking it the the next level 
 I know about bone conducting headphone using your scull as a resonator but I never tried it. Have you tried those, if so how do they sound?
 I assume you are using the same concept and limit the vibration frequency for bass only, will you need to provide external additional AC power for the LRA?


----------



## Silverprout

forcemajeure said:


> Well, you are definitely taking it the the next level
> I know about bone conducting headphone using your scull as a resonator but I never tried it. Have you tried those, if so how do they sound?
> I assume you are using the same concept and limit the vibration frequency for bass only, will you need to provide external additional AC power for the LRA?


 
  
 You should read the amazon users comments about bone conducting earphones 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I was thinking mysef a tad ridiculous on the first atempt (lot of time wasted to design and build LRAs and control circuitry) but it works... and it is utterly fun.
 My circuit operate with one CR123 li-ion cell and can deliver 2W rms to the transducers
  
 Sorry, the transducer is too shy to be on the photo


----------



## jbr1971

After seeing Silverprout's pictures of the diy driver I ended up on a very long & varied Google adventure last night looking up different diy driver projects.
  
 I came across AMT drivers, and wondered if there was an IEM version available, which then led me to the OBravo website (http://www.obravoaudio.com/). They have micro AMT and micro planar magnetic drivers available in their IEMs. Supposedly they are the first ones to offer this.
  
  

  
  
 Has anyone had a chance to hear these? Or heard of anyone selling these micro drivers?
  
 Anyone have any idea how to build one? I did a lot of looking around and could not find anything.


----------



## Silverprout

jbr1971 said:


> After seeing Silverprout's pictures of the diy driver I ended up on a very long & varied Google adventure last night looking up different diy driver projects.
> 
> I came across AMT drivers, and wondered if there was an IEM version available, which then led me to the OBravo website (http://www.obravoaudio.com/). They have micro AMT and micro planar magnetic drivers available in their IEMs. Supposedly they are the first ones to offer this.
> 
> ...


 
  
 A FR of waterfall graph should be interesting IMHO.


----------



## tranhieu

2V RMS? That's quite a lot to be used on the go. Interesting, would be great if it can be fed directly from the DAP.


----------



## Silverprout

tranhieu said:


> 2V RMS? That's quite a lot to be used on the go. Interesting, would be great if it can be fed directly from the DAP.


 

 2W, my DAP (NWZ-A15) is delivering around 10mW (0.01W)
 You need a powerful DAP (around 500mW minimum) but my circuit can be reduced by 80% with SMD components.


----------



## raptor18

This is why i believe we should use the correct lights our resins require,
  
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cewcrle7TR4
  
 Since i use Egger, i will also need blue light together with UVA. The Egger LP/H manual clearly says to use EL1 (incl Plus N2) and EL2. It does not state anywhere EL4 which only contains 6 UVA lights.
  
 I also had loads of problems with my UV Nail Lamp i bought from Aliexpress. The one i bought is of absolute worse quality. It wouldn't light up the Osram bulbs i bought, they would simply only blink. I had to remove the starter that is mounted inside the G23 socket of the bulbs for it to work and it seems the bulbs that comes with the ****ty aliexpress nail lamp does not contain these starters.
 The lamps gets lit without a starter and i still haven't figured how this is possible yet but i can see that they aren't receiving enough current / voltage to be lit correctly. 
  
 I then bought a proper UV Nail Lamp locally which has much better electronics inside with two heavy Electromagnetic ballasts. The Aliexpress version is very simple and light with no electromagnet ballasts but a very low quality electronic ballast.
  
 It has taken me several days to figure this out so i feel i need to warn anyone here buying these low quality uv nail lamps.
 A rule of thumb for me is that the bulbs should blink before they light up. If they don't, they don't contain a starter and then you won't know if they receive proper voltage / current. I could be wrong but i feel more comfortable this way.
  
 See attached image to compare the cheap bulb without starter and the osram with a starter.

 I also bought a Wax heating device from aliexpress that can barely melt the paraffin wax. I've promised myself many times before not to buy noname electronics from aliexpress.


----------



## Mython

mython said:


> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  
*Shotgunshane* drew my attention to UE's updated UERM ('UE Pro Reference Remastered') this evening, and I noticed something similar to the earlier discussion, above, albeit presumably tuned in a different manner:
  

  
  
 It continues to surprise me how few commercial CIEM-makers employ a _*consistent*_ pre-configured moulded tubing assembly, like those used by Starkey/M-Fidelity, and now, UE; especially considering that 3D-printing can so easily prototype and produce such items.
  
  
  
 As I see it, it could:
  

save significant assembly time for each pair of CIEMs
increase product consistency (& symmetry), in terms of internal appearance
increase product consistency, potentially, in terms of frequency response
potentially improve shock-resistance/robustness, because the BAs can be encapsulated within the tube-assembly, rather than the tubing being attached to the BAs only at the tiny nozzles (yes, I know acrylic or cyanoacrylate may be used to reinforce the joint, but still...)
  
  
  
 And, as UE are (partly) demonstrating, there are tuning possibilities easily implementable in this kind of assembly which would be too much hassle if manually created on a per-CIEM basis, with conventional tubing. Examples include:
  

deliberately convoluting the walls of the moulded tube
extending the length of the moulded tube, back&forth, in a manner not viable to bend conventional tubing
inclusion of a resonant cavity (e.g. Helmholtz) at some juncture along the length of the moulded tube
tapering of the moulded tube (could be used for horn-loading or some other reason)
more complex combinations of the sound tube outputs from each BA in the CIEM configuration, either all in parallel, or in partial Y-combinations, etc. etc.
  
 The sky's the limit, acoustically-speaking.
  
  
  
 So, in spite of how few commercial CIEM-makers are currently employing this approach, I nonetheless predict an increase in popularity, in the near future.
  
 .


----------



## jbr1971

Has anyone else that has been using the ballistics gel from Clear Ballistics been having trouble with air bubbles forming around the impressions after pouring?
  
 I can get the gel poured fine without any significant bubbles, but it appears the interaction between the impressions and the gel is causing bubbles while it sets. Is it the large difference in temperature from the room temp moulds and the hot gel?
  
 Any tips on what I can do with the impressions to keep the bubbles from forming?
  
 Maybe putting the impressions in a cup of hot water beforehand to warm them up? Or curing a thin coat of fotoplast over the impressions?
  
 Thanks,
  
 Jody


----------



## MuZo2

mython said:


> As I see it, it could:
> 
> save significant assembly time for each pair of CIEMs
> increase product consistency (& symmetry), in terms of internal appearance
> ...


 
 I have been advocating it since 2011
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/616728/ciem-digital-manufacturing-hybrid-iem


----------



## raptor18

jbr1971 said:


> Has anyone else that has been using the ballistics gel from Clear Ballistics been having trouble with air bubbles forming around the impressions after pouring?
> 
> I can get the gel poured fine without any significant bubbles, but it appears the interaction between the impressions and the gel is causing bubbles while it sets. Is it the large difference in temperature from the room temp moulds and the hot gel?
> 
> ...


 
 You will need a pressure pot
  
 http://www.smooth-on.com/Tools-Supplies-and/c1_1273/index.html
  
 Edit: If you find a cheap one, tell me  I found a pressure spray which can be hand pumped to 2-3 bars. I think 2-3 bars can be sufficiant.


----------



## raptor18

Can someone enlighten me how it is possible to fit 3x3.1mm holes at the tip for the medium #13 sound tubes?
  
 I just tried to do a 3 x 2.4mm test drilling but couldn't do it.
  
 Are the tubes shifted from 3.1mm to something smaller at the tip? I thought we wanted to the opposite for the treble tube to create a horn to extend the treble...


----------



## jbr1971

raptor18 said:


> You will need a pressure pot
> 
> http://www.smooth-on.com/Tools-Supplies-and/c1_1273/index.html
> 
> Edit: If you find a cheap one, tell me  I found a pressure spray which can be hand pumped to 2-3 bars. I think 2-3 bars can be sufficiant.


 
  
 Interesting idea. Although, at $800 there is no way I can justify that.
  
 Looks like plan b will go into effect. "Painting" and curing extra layers of fotoplast over the irregularities in the shells caused by the air bubbles in the mould.
  
 The first test run was quite promising as an effective way of smoothing them out.
  
 After all of the tests I have done I just hope I have enough fotoplast left to get at least 1 good set of shells.


----------



## MuZo2

jbr1971 said:


> Interesting idea. Although, at $800 there is no way I can justify that.
> 
> Looks like plan b will go into effect. "Painting" and curing extra layers of fotoplast over the irregularities in the shells caused by the air bubbles in the mould.
> 
> ...


 

 Did you use wax?


----------



## jbr1971

muzo2 said:


> Did you use wax?


 
  
 No, I figured the hot gel would just melt it off making it not worth the trouble.
  
 Or will the melted wax create enough of a barrier to help against the bubbles?
  
 Could be worth a try.


----------



## Squirg

Hello HFers!  Long time lurker -- 1st post!  I told myself I wasn't going to post anything until getting through this entire thread and I feel like I know you guys now.  We should get together sometime!  I love the idea of a conference of sorts.  Anyhoo,.. here goes...
  
 So, I have been procuring supplies and honing my shelling/soldering skills.  It doesn't seem like there has been a lot of discussion about hybrids here.  I have some Astrotec AX-35's which incorporate a Knowles ED driver and a 10mm Dynamic.  I like the sound, but I am a drummer and require more low end.  I just got in some CI drivers (22955) to fatten it up.  Has anyone out there done anything like this?  Add a driver to an existing set-up?  The AX-35's are small enough to put in an empty IEM shell with the CI.  But, wondering if I should open up the aluminum shell and take out the components, or simply throw the entire shell in a CIEM shell with a tube and wire up the CI in parallel (or series?), add a red filter and call it good.  Is this a dumb idea?   Any tips for wiring this up would be greatly appreciated!  I also have a set of SE215's that I am thinking of throwing into the mix.  Thoughts?...
  
 Thank you for all for the inspiration!!!


----------



## DanMar

DIY plug


----------



## DanMar

Modified Brainwavz M5 housings with Vsonic VSD5 driver! VSD5 shell was too bulky and with no MMCX... So I used silicone mold and polyurethane Polytec EasyFlo 60 Liquid Plastic to make plastic shell with embedded connector. The sound is clean as was on VSD5. Fully sealed shell with foam stuffed back.


----------



## Walderstorn

Those actually look nice.


----------



## ihate

Does anyone know how to turn an earbud into in ear phone? I realized my Sennheiser MX760s sound superior to my IEMs but with zero bass and isolation. If I can find a way to attach a triple flange to it, it will be satisfying as hell. The final product should look like Panasonic's cheaper IEMs. Sort of classic big-driver earbuds with canal extensions...


----------



## MuZo2

Some tips like JVC HAEN10A might help, not sure if it  fits senn buds.


----------



## raptor18

Hey everyone, where did you get your IEC711 coupler?


----------



## Silverprout

Depending where you are !


----------



## raptor18

I'm in Sweden. But i could get it from overseas? 
 If i'm note mistaken, the IEC711 couplers are crazy expensive?


----------



## piotrus-g

raptor18 said:


> I'm in Sweden. But i could get it from overseas?
> If i'm note mistaken, the IEC711 couplers are crazy expensive?


 
 http://www.acoutronic.se/#cath=home They are listed on GRAS website as official partner. Prepare to shell out some 5k€


----------



## raptor18

piotrus-g said:


> http://www.acoutronic.se/#cath=home They are listed on GRAS website as official partner. Prepare to shell out some 5k€


 
  
 Haha
  
 That is what i suspected 
 I ain't getting that unless i start doing this professionally which i probably won't.
  
 I wonder why it's so expensive, highly accurate and calibrated electronics (mic)?
 Ofcours, if it was readly available like an iphone, it'd be a bit cheaper =)
  
 Who of you who ain't doing this professionally has one?


----------



## piotrus-g

raptor18 said:


> Haha
> 
> That is what i suspected
> I ain't getting that unless i start doing this professionally which i probably won't.
> ...


 

 Mic is paired with coupler meaning you cannot remove it unless you have equipement to calibrate it again and invidually tested. It's also iso-certified


----------



## Silverprout

1200$ in my country.


----------



## piotrus-g

silverprout said:


> 1200$ in my country.


 

 Did you count pre-amp, power-amp and cable? or just coupler? You will also need good sound card for analyzing.


----------



## raptor18

I make music so i have really good stuff 
  
 I also have a Behringer ECM8000 for the days when i tried to setup an acoustic room, i wonder how far i can get with it! It will surely work for relative comparisons, but not any iso measurements


----------



## Silverprout

piotrus-g said:


> Did you count pre-amp, power-amp and cable? or just coupler? You will also need good sound card for analyzing.


 

 Just the coupler alone.


----------



## Silverprout

raptor18 said:


> I make music so i have really good stuff
> 
> I also have a Behringer ECM8000 for the days when i tried to setup an acoustic room, i wonder how far i can get with it! It will surely work for relative comparisons, but not any iso measurements


 

 It can be a good solution... if you don't want to reinvent the wheel IMHO
 We have a lot of awesome loudspeaker manufacturers in my country (Focal, JMlab, Triangle, Davis, Elipson, Supravox, PHY, Audax.....) ... and some of them also sell loudspeaker parts for enthusiasts.
 DIY well designed loudspeakers have a very different taste for me... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 there's something inside, you can't buy it


----------



## Mython

silverprout said:


> It can be a good solution... if you don't want to reinvent the wheel IMHO
> We have a lot of awesome loudspeaker manufacturers in my country (Focal, JMlab, Triangle, Davis, Elipson, Supravox, PHY, Audax.....) ... and some of them also sell loudspeaker parts for enthusiasts.
> DIY well designed loudspeakers have a very different taste for me...
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 I'm sure you already know these very well, but I will post them anyway, just for the interest of others who may be reading this brief tangent from CIEMs!:
  
  
 http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Diy_Loudspeaker_Projects.htm
  
 http://www.linkwitzlab.com/index.html


----------



## Silverprout

mython said:


> I'm sure you already know these very well, but I will post them anyway, just for the interest of others who may be reading this brief tangent from CIEMs!:
> 
> 
> http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Diy_Loudspeaker_Projects.htm
> ...


 
  
 IMHO there is a lot of very useful informations for IEM designers on your links.

 Fantastic work but I want the sounds to be free of doing what they want to do... i don't like "boxes" at all (big and heavy bunkers)
 http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Diy_Loudspeaker_Projects.htm

  
  
 Thsese are awesome (i've got one pair)
 http://www.linkwitzlab.com/index.html


----------



## piotrus-g

silverprout said:


> Just the coupler alone.


 
 That's what I thought. Coupler is relatively cheap, it's just a piece of metal. but you have to add microphone, pre-amp and power module which all are incredibly expensive, cable alone cost €700 because it's lemo with some shieliding and stuff
  
 [Edit] Oh BTW. I just broke my 2k post ;D


----------



## raptor18

piotrus-g said:


> That's what I thought. Coupler is relatively cheap, it's just a piece of metal. but you have to add microphone, pre-amp and power module which all are incredibly expensive, cable alone cost €700 because it's lemo with some shieliding and stuff
> 
> [Edit] Oh BTW. I just broke my 2k post ;D


 
  
 Congrats!
  
 $1200 only for the couple (piece of metal)? Bloody hell that's expensive. OK if it was with mic that comes calibrated.


----------



## audioxxx

piotrus-g said:


> That's what I thought. Coupler is relatively cheap, it's just a piece of metal. but you have to add microphone, pre-amp and power module which all are incredibly expensive, cable alone cost €700 because it's lemo with some shieliding and stuff
> 
> [Edit] Oh BTW. I just broke my 2k post ;D




There is this: http://diy.vibrolabs.com/products/veritas

 Which is very basic for taking guideline samples, but also handy, and doesn't cost the earth.

2k of posts well done:


----------



## MuZo2

Applause for 2k quality post !!!!!!! and successful journey as audiophile and entrepreneur.


----------



## piotrus-g

Thank you guys.


----------



## ForceMajeure

I am thinking of not dipping my ear impressions in wax.
 I tried it with very hot paraffin wax and it still came out too big though I have trimmed my impressions even more for it to fit...
 The trimming process to make the wax coat spot on also makes the ear impressions more prone to fitment issues...
 Do you think a professional wax likes EGGER will be thinner?
  
 Also another question about trimming the impressions.
 How do you make sure the impressions will have the same shape for the faceplates when trimming them?
 I tried to have the same shape but it still slightly different.
 I also tried another method, I used bluetak to rise the impressions a bit before the colloid process and shaped them to have similar faceplates form...
  
 So far I have butchered 3 pairs of impressions and I am still not 1000% satisfied with the results...
  
 Also the ears canal length seems to be an issue to get it right how much need to be trimmed?
 I tried various lengths, some seems to be too long and kinda irritating/discomforting before the second bend especially when lying on the side.
 I think the major part of the CIEM end results beside sound depends on the trimming/handling of the impressions.
 A step which is not discussed enough here I think.


----------



## MuZo2

forcemajeure said:


> I am thinking of not dipping my ear impressions in wax.
> I tried it with very hot paraffin wax and it still came out too big though I have trimmed my impressions even more for it to fit...
> The trimming process to make the wax coat spot on also makes the ear impressions more prone to fitment issues...
> Do you think a professional wax likes EGGER will be thinner?
> ...


 

 Yes I got wax from same supplier of egger and its thin and applies even.


----------



## raptor18

I really think you should use paraffin wax to cover any imperfections and smoothen the surface of the ear impressions. I used ordinary paraffin wax on my test shells and they turned out quiet good with good fit in the ear. 
 Make sure the wax is around 78 degrees celsius when you dip them, this is written in the dreve fotoplast manual so you need a termometer. It is also an art how to dip the wax, it took me many tests to get them good. Watch the 1964 lab tour video, there is an instance when they dip the ear impressions in wax. The cooler the wax is, the thicker the wax will become on the surface, maybe you should raise the wax temperature?
  
 Something you should also try, dip test ear impressions which you are not affraid of destroying, and keep it in the wax for 10 seconds. Lift and you will se the wax layer very thin. This is probably because the wax heated the ear impressions and the wax has enough time to flow down before hardening. So keeping the ear impressions at around 23 degrees celsius or something is also critical when dipping the ear impressions in the wax


----------



## ForceMajeure

raptor18 said:


> I really think you should use paraffin wax to cover any imperfections and smoothen the surface of the ear impressions. I used ordinary paraffin wax on my test shells and they turned out quiet good with good fit in the ear.
> Make sure the wax is around 78 degrees celsius when you dip them, this is written in the dreve fotoplast manual so you need a termometer. It is also an art how to dip the wax, it took me many tests to get them good. Watch the 1964 lab tour video, there is an instance when they dip the ear impressions in wax. The cooler the wax is, the thicker the wax will become on the surface, maybe you should raise the wax temperature?
> 
> Something you should also try, dip test ear impressions which you are not affraid of destroying, and keep it in the wax for 10 seconds. Lift and you will se the wax layer very thin. This is probably because the wax heated the ear impressions and the wax has enough time to flow down before hardening. So keeping the ear impressions at around 23 degrees celsius or something is also critical when dipping the ear impressions in the wax


 
 Yeah, I measured the temperature and it was over 85 C. I have also watch the 1964' vid again and tried to imitate the movement but the end result is still a too thick layer IMO. Between 0.3mm to 0.5mm. I don't know how much thinner a professional wax could be. I tried to trim another set of impressions to match this amount but it leads to some inconsistencies in the overall shape of the ear canals and concha and leads to a less comfortable fit. If the professional wax thickness once settled is 0.1mm-0.15mm  then I might buy some.


----------



## ForceMajeure

ihate said:


> Does anyone know how to turn an earbud into in ear phone? I realized my Sennheiser MX760s sound superior to my IEMs but with zero bass and isolation. If I can find a way to attach a triple flange to it, it will be satisfying as hell. The final product should look like Panasonic's cheaper IEMs. Sort of classic big-driver earbuds with canal extensions...


 
 You can find shells with a fitting diameter on lunashops.com or aliexpress.
 I don't know the diameter of the mx760 but if it is 15mm these would fit http://www.lunashops.com/goods.php?id=5284


----------



## raptor18

Has anyone seen this?
  
 http://www.knowles.com/eng/premiumsound/Resource-center/Measuring-Balanced-Armature-Drivers-for-Hi-Res-Audio-Earphones
  
 A new way to measure BA's? No need for IEC711 coupler?


----------



## Silverprout

raptor18 said:


> Has anyone seen this?
> 
> http://www.knowles.com/eng/premiumsound/Resource-center/Measuring-Balanced-Armature-Drivers-for-Hi-Res-Audio-Earphones
> 
> A new way to measure BA's? No need for IEC711 coupler?


 

 Knolwes DIY coupler 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 You absolutely need an IEC 711 coupler to be respected and esteemed by the audiophile community !


----------



## piotrus-g

raptor18 said:


> Has anyone seen this?
> 
> http://www.knowles.com/eng/premiumsound/Resource-center/Measuring-Balanced-Armature-Drivers-for-Hi-Res-Audio-Earphones
> 
> A new way to measure BA's? No need for IEC711 coupler?


 

 Well first of all good luck hearing anything above 20kHz ;D Secondly, consider that the signal at 40kH is around 70dB If you are familiar with human hearing curve you know there's no chance in hearing anything at that level. The SPL above 20kHz would have to be at at least 110dB to make any difference.


----------



## jbr1971

audioxxx said:


> There is this: http://diy.vibrolabs.com/products/veritas
> 
> Which is very basic for taking guideline samples, but also handy, and doesn't cost the earth.


 
  
 I bought a Veritas and find it is good for basic ballpark measurements as well.
  
 I find I have to take multiple measurements for every setup and throw away the outlier(s) because I get some that are wildly different from the others in the set.
  
 Overall it is decent for what I paid for it (got it on sale). I cannot justify anything more expensive for my use.


----------



## audioxxx

jbr1971 said:


> I bought a Veritas and find it is good for basic ballpark measurements as well.
> 
> I find I have to take multiple measurements for every setup and throw away the outlier(s) because I get some that are wildly different from the others in the set.
> 
> Overall it is decent for what I paid for it (got it on sale). I cannot justify anything more expensive for my use.




I agree the Veritas is good for the price on sale,(I bought mine on sale as well) and it is hard to justify spending big money on callibrated test equipment, especially for a hobby like this. 
 I think you may get better results if you stick the veritas on something very heavy and solid.


----------



## raptor18

Ladies and gentlemen
  
 What if i took a really deep ear impression and made a cast and modified it so an appropriate mic would fit. Wouldn't that just create the best coupler for my ear(s). I do know it wouldn't follow the iso IEC711 standard and no measurements could really be compared to those made in an IEC711, but who cares when all those IEC711 measurements are wrong for my own ears thus own coupler


----------



## jbr1971

After much trial and error (I used up a good portion of my Fotoplast supply) I finally have a set of shells that I am happy with. They are certainly not pro level, but they seal well, and look good for what I was hoping to accomplish.
  
 Now to get the driver config finalized, the recessed connectors installed, and get through the somewhat long process (I am way too picky about sound for my own good) of finalizing the tuning.


----------



## audioxxx

Looking very nice, I would be happy with that result.


----------



## raptor18

On taobao, there are a few IEC711 listings. Obviously they have to be fake. What do you guys think? Is it worth a try? Obviously we won't get the mic calibrated, but that could probably be calibrated in Europe or US if we wanted to have them calibrated. I've never bought from taobao so it'd have to go through an agent.


----------



## MuZo2

just build your self a 2cc coupler with panasonic mic for 5$, why measure with fake iec711 if you know its not going to be same like real iec711 measurements?


----------



## raptor18

I have a quiet good behringer ECM8000 meausring mic, that's not my issue. My issue is the coupler . I just bought a PVC pipe to extend the head of the mic a bit to measure.
  
 The coupler is just a piece of metal, it shouldn't be that hard to copy for the chinese you'd think.
  
 Could it be that you have instructions to build a 2cc coupler?


----------



## Squirg

Any one know what Knowles drivers these are?  Obviously a Chinese knock-off of the Apple ADDIEM.  But, I can't seem to find any info on the BA's.
  





 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Earmax-ER600-Dual-Balanced-Armature-Inner-ear-headphones-With-remote-microphone-/291515950332?hash=item43dfb464fc:g:LSgAAOSwT6pVpk
  
 Pretty good deal for duals, eh?  I'm thinking of grabbing these and pairing them with some CI's in my next CIEM.  
  
 Thoughts?


----------



## piotrus-g

Any KA driver starting with "6" is custom tuned and you won't find any info about them anywhere and Knowles won't share that either.
 Driver for ADDIEM was based on HC and FK units.


----------



## ForceMajeure

Quick question, how do you make tube holes clear after having drilled them? Do you spread small amount of uv resin on the tube before inserting them and cure it?


----------



## MuZo2

forcemajeure said:


> Quick question, how do you make tube holes clear after having drilled them? Do you spread small amount of uv resin on the tube before inserting them and cure it?


 

 Yes thats what I do...


----------



## Silverprout

forcemajeure said:


> Quick question, how do you make tube holes clear after having drilled them? Do you spread small amount of uv resin on the tube before inserting them and cure it?


 
  


muzo2 said:


> Yes thats what I do...


 

 Hello,
 How do you clean the uncured resin on the inner surface of the tube ?


----------



## ForceMajeure

I don't think it get inside the tube. I think he just rub a  very very small amount of resin around the outside of the tube then insert them into the holes and cure it.


----------



## ForceMajeure

@Silverprout How have you done yours?


----------



## MuZo2

silverprout said:


> Hello,
> How do you clean the uncured resin on the inner surface of the tube ?


 

 This is after drilling the holes, I apply small amount of UV resin inside by brush and cure it. So before inserting the tubes.


----------



## ForceMajeure

muzo2 said:


> This is after drilling the holes, I apply small amount of UV resin inside by brush and cure it. So before inserting the tubes.


 
 What diameter holes do you usually make?


----------



## Silverprout

forcemajeure said:


> I don't think it get inside the tube. I think he just rub a  very very small amount of resin around the outside of the tube then insert them into the holes and cure it.


 
  


muzo2 said:


> This is after drilling the holes, I apply small amount of UV resin inside by brush and cure it. So before inserting the tubes.


 

 I was thinking it was a tubeless design (drilled horn), in this case the uncured resin migrate and fill the filters 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  


forcemajeure said:


> @Silverprout How have you done yours?


 
  
 I make an hollow shell as fine as possible and i cut the end of the canal.
 Then, install the tubes and fill the canal end with gel resin... in this case you can position all the tubes exactly where you want at the same time.


----------



## MuZo2

silverprout said:


> Then, install the tubes and fill the canal end with gel resin... in this case you can position all the tubes exactly where you want at the same time.


 
 Do you mean UV gel or some other resin?


----------



## Silverprout

muzo2 said:


> Do you mean UV gel or some other resin?


 

 Yes, with UV gel you can take the time you want to position your tubes perfectly.
  
 PS : Nail art UV gels are not gels at all, they are high viscosity fluids, otology gel resin does not flow at all because it is a REAL gel.


----------



## MuZo2

silverprout said:


> Yes, with UV gel you can take the time you want to position your tubes perfectly.
> 
> PS : Nail art UV gels are not gels at all, they are high viscosity fluids, otology gel resin does not flow at all because it is a REAL gel.


 

 What, Egger has nice viscosit better than nail art gel.


----------



## ForceMajeure

Here is a nice interview about the new JH lineup.
Apparently 4th order crossover on the high drivers on the Rosie and the new JH13.
Very informative vid.
https://www.facebook.com/astellnkern.alex/videos/1008577499187940/?fref=nf


----------



## raptor18

How does your bores look like? What dimension on the sound tubes do you use and how many at the bores (output). I still haven't figured that out.
  
 Edit: What tube OD dimensions are typical on IEMs with 3 bores.


----------



## Silverprout

forcemajeure said:


> Here is a nice interview about the new JH lineup.
> Apparently 4th order crossover on the high drivers on the Rosie and the new JH13.
> Very informative vid.
> https://www.facebook.com/astellnkern.alex/videos/1008577499187940/?fref=nf


 

 Wow... every component have a inductive, resistive and capacitive part.
  
 So all IEMs have a very complex 4nd order filter, Amazing discovery !
  
 Really.


----------



## ForceMajeure

raptor18 said:


> How does your bores look like? What dimension on the sound tubes do you use and how many at the bores (output). I still haven't figured that out.
> 
> Edit: What tube OD dimensions are typical on IEMs with 3 bores.


 
 For me I think 2 bores is standard, I have 2.8mm OD, 3mm OD, 2mm OD tubes. Drilling the holes is a tricky task. I broke multiple shells trying to fit 2 bores. The best way is to use a small diamond burr preferably 1/1.5 mm Diameter and slowly enlarge the hole with the same bit. Another way would be to drill a big hole and fill it wit the tube and resin for a cure.
  
 I think the 3 bores is usually made with at least 2X1.5mm OD tubes and one 2mm OD. but I am not sure. I also think a 3 bore design might be easier to achieve using the filling method rather than drilling.
  
  


silverprout said:


> Wow... every component have a inductive, resistive and capacitive part.
> 
> So all IEMs have a very complex 4nd order filter, Amazing discovery !
> 
> Really.


 
  
 I don't think it uses inductors, just the regular RC high pass filter with cap and resistor only 4th order.
 also If I am not mistaken 4th order will have a 180deg phase shift at the crossover point thus the need to correct with the phasefreq (I think it is just longer tube to induce delay to the sound to correct phase, a thing I have discussed earlier in this thread without knowing it might be the thing behind freqphase) or maybe invert polarity of the drivers.


----------



## Silverprout

forcemajeure said:


> I don't think it uses inductors, just the regular RC high pass filter with cap and resistor only 4th order.
> also If I am not mistaken 4th order will have a 180deg phase shift at the crossover point thus the need to correct with the phasefreq (I think it is just longer tube to induce delay to the sound to correct phase, a thing I have discussed earlier in this thread without knowing it might be the thing behind freqphase) or maybe invert polarity of the drivers.


 
  
  
 RC high pass need an inductor and the phase shift of a 4th order is 360°.


----------



## ForceMajeure

How is the sensitivity of a multiple BA design affected? Is there a way to make it lower while designing a circuit? I really would like to know if I can reduce the hiss on my CIEM attempts.
  
 So far I didn't have a lot of time to even complete a full build but I have been able to hear CI drivers in shells out of curiosity and I have noticed various hissing level from various sources.
 It was a simple circuit nothing special, just BAs connected to a 2pin connector but on some sources the hiss was a bit too apparent. I am aware that an amp or a source with a low noise floor could be a solution but I would like to know if there's a possibility to affect the sensitivity from the other side of the "equation".


----------



## Silverprout

silverprout said:


> RC high pass need an inductor and the phase shift of a 4th order is 360°.


 
  
  
 ... i fooled myself... RC filter is RC, it is just R and C.


----------



## raptor18

forcemajeure said:


> For me I think 2 bores is standard, I have 2.8mm OD, 3mm OD, 2mm OD tubes. Drilling the holes is a tricky task. I broke multiple shells trying to fit 2 bores. The best way is to use a small diamond burr preferably 1/1.5 mm Diameter and slowly enlarge the hole with the same bit. Another way would be to drill a big hole and fill it wit the tube and resin for a cure.
> 
> I think the 3 bores is usually made with at least 2X1.5mm OD tubes and one 2mm OD. but I am not sure. I also think a 3 bore design might be easier to achieve using the filling method rather than drilling.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks mate. I suspected it would be someting like that for 3 bores. However i thought all manufacturers wanted to try and keep as large soundtubes as possible for the highs. 1.5 mm tube would kill a highs quiet a lot? The lows can have very small soundtubes. 
  
 I will however try to use one 3mm OD for highs and 2.1 mm OD for lows.
  
 Whenever i mention small or big tubes, i mean the diameter


----------



## raptor18

silverprout said:


> Wow... every component have a inductive, resistive and capacitive part.
> 
> So all IEMs have a very complex 4nd order filter, Amazing discovery !
> 
> Really.


 
  
 I'm a little skeptical when no CIEM maker uses an elecrical low pass filter, thus no bandpass either and then all of a sudden one claims they have low pass, band pass, high pass and also in fourth order
 in a universal
  
 Did i miss something?


----------



## ForceMajeure

silverprout said:


> ... i fooled myself... RC filter is RC, it is just R and C.


 






 We all don't know what we are doing here...hehe...We clicked on this thread and just got sucked in...  We just invested too much money in equipment and stuff and just don't want to back up, we also like the look of CIEMs sometimes it just look too sexy.


----------



## Silverprout

forcemajeure said:


> We all don't know what we are doing here...hehe...We clicked on this thread and just got sucked in...  We just invested too much money in equipment and stuff and just don't want to back up, we also like the look of CIEMs sometimes it just look too sexy.


 

 The poor cat is blocked in a concrete filter... how set him free ?
 He should be so scared !
  
  


raptor18 said:


> I'm a little skeptical when no CIEM maker uses an elecrical low pass filter, thus no bandpass either and then all of a sudden one claims they have low pass, band pass, high pass and also in fourth order
> in a universal
> 
> Did i miss something?


 
  
 Sorry i was digressing a lot.


----------



## raptor18

Take this as example
  
  
  
  
 It looks like the bores are something like 1.5 mm (OD of the sound tubes) with no horn. How do you get good highs in this case?


----------



## ForceMajeure

I don't think the highs are so much affected. The horn design bore (like VE) helps with high frequency extension and maybe making it a bit smoother. The difference between 1.5mm/2mm/3mm might not be as big...I don't know. I think you could measure it methodically to see the difference and also hear it. Don't forget that it is driver dependent and filter placement dependent so all those factor need to be considered.
 The spiral ear ref uses a WBFK driver for the highs if am not mistaken so it is already a driver with more trebble extension than other...
 The best way is to test individually different tubes diameter and filters so you could tweek the sound.


----------



## Squirg

Hey guys.  I'm building my first CIEM and I'm trying to keep it simple and cheap (which I have learned is impossible).  I've got a pair of CI drivers and looking for a pair of mids/highs.  I found these 5 options on ebay and wondering if someone could suggest which ones I should purchase.  Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.  Note:  I'm a drummer and needing serious LF.  Thanks!
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pcs-x-Moving-iron-unit-Knowles-for-30265-31116-26784-30037-30120-Diy-Parts-/262171139020?var=&hash=item3d0a9e1bccmbId0jBfgnlxHaI3R_PLPYQ


----------



## wormyrocks

forcemajeure said:


> @Silverprout How have you done yours?


 
 Are those dampers located inside the canals? How well does that work?
  
 Also, if anyone is interested in obtaining the drivers used in the Noble Savant, some folks on Reddit (I'm the OP) will be obtaining some shortly.


----------



## Silverprout

wormyrocks said:


> Are those dampers located inside the canals? How well does that work?
> 
> Also, if anyone is interested in obtaining the drivers used in the Noble Savant, some folks on Reddit (I'm the OP) will be obtaining some shortly.


 
 Yes they are.
 As described by manufacturers !


----------



## alanwcruz

Been reading this post for quite a while and I was finally able to build a couple of CIEM's that look good, being a new member i still can't post pics but the method that worked for me was using Knox gelatin molds and UV curing using nail acrylic.
  
 Had to make quite a few tries to get the shells to look good, my first tries where thin and opaque. Finally found out that the cause was exposure time and the knox mix. Using one pack of gelatin plus 1/4 cup water plus 1/4 cup glycerin did the trick, now my shells come out quite nice.
  
 I reshelled some sony bluetooth earphones that never quite fit my ears and also built a GK based CIEM. Both turned out great! 
  
 Thanks to all for sharing!


----------



## wormyrocks

Just finished my first pair. 
  
  
 How do you guys get that extra 10% of shiny? Is there a specific polish or dremel tip I should be using? Nail buffers not quite doing it for me.


----------



## alanwcruz

What works for me is adding a thin coat of uv acrylic and curing after I finish adding components and sealing the shell. Gives a nice smooth and shiny  finish.


----------



## snowlune

Let's take a step away from customs for once and have a talk about universals.
  
 There seems to have been another user here who 3D printed a UIEM shell, but there seems to be quite a few challenges. Here's the one I made: https://a.pomf.cat/wghgrz.jpg http://a.pomf.cat/kzhmpu.jpg
  
 First of all, my shell doesn't sit comfortably in the ear. I have a feeling it might be too large somewhere.
 In addition, the 3D printed shell is having trouble maintaining a seal. Because it is printed with lines some parts end up leaking, which is why I smeared the blue putty all over it.
  
 Also, it doesn't have enough space to accommodate a CI + damper. The dimensions are roughly 2x2cm for the width and height. If I make it any wider I doubt it will fit properly.
  
 I know that Shure/Westone can get away with it because they're just sticking a single damper into the bore. However, I'm really curious as of how Noble/JH is managing to fit all these drivers into the shell while keeping it comfortable.


----------



## audioxxx

A shell from a small 3 BA's is quite small, and sits flush with my small ears.
When you compare the 10BA's shell, side by side the with the 3BA, the 3 looks like it's tiny, most of the extra bulk sits outside the side of the ear over an inch.
Unfortunately, there is no magic to hide these huge CI drivers, 2 in each side on these beasts I'm listening to.

 And these things must be quite large, unless you use a stack of tiny twfk BA's, or similar BA's in combination's. But then you miss the great impact that the massive CI BA's bring to the bass line, and drums.


----------



## audioxxx

The more ports you want to use the smaller the tubing must be, I think more than 3 and it going to get tricky, the dampers are tiny and can be squeezed in the audio tubing, so they take not much room. 

So their not an issue, but the barrel of the iem stem also must be quite thick, for more than 1 port. So thin stems like shure use in their iem's are out.


----------



## snowlune

audioxxx said:


> The more ports you want to use the smaller the tubing must be, I think more than 3 and it going to get tricky, the dampers are tiny and can be squeezed in the audio tubing, so they take not much room.
> 
> So their not an issue, but the barrel of the iem stem also must be quite thick, for more than 1 port. So thin stems like shure use in their iem's are out.


 

 The hardest part of the design I'm trying to go with is the tubing. From my experiences you want to put the damper around 1.5-2cm away from the nozzle to dampen out the HF peaks. If you put it too close you'll retain some of the peaks.
  
 I'm actually trying to go with 2.2mm ID Shure nozzles, since I find Shure/Ety tips the best I can come up with. If I tried to go with a dual bore design, assuming that each bore is only 1mm, I'd end up with a total cross sectional width of around 5-6mm, considering that the 3D printer I have access to requires a minimum feature width of 1mm (they recommend 1.5mm, but 1mm is doable with some effort). This rules out the possibility of putting dampers in the tube in the nozzle.
  
 Thus, if I am to go with my current design, I'd have to slap a 3cm tube onto the CI and somehow join that with the tube from the ED into the nozzle. To accomplish this I'm currently trying to figure out how to create a shell design to maximize the space inside.


----------



## audioxxx

You can buy some pretty good pre fab shells, that look great, and will fit 1 CA. But I guess it won't be half as fun as printing it.


----------



## ForceMajeure

wormyrocks said:


> Just finished my first pair.
> 
> 
> How do you guys get that extra 10% of shiny? Is there a specific polish or dremel tip I should be using? Nail buffers not quite doing it for me.


 
 NIce, you managed to do a 3 bores. What diameter are those tubes? What drivers did you use?
 Your CIEM's ear canal seems not too deep. Is it a design choice?
  
 Regarding shiny, lacquer is your best bet. You could try to buff with a cotton wheel and blue polish compound but I didn't try it.


----------



## ForceMajeure

snowlune said:


> Let's take a step away from customs for once and have a talk about universals.
> 
> There seems to have been another user here who 3D printed a UIEM shell, but there seems to be quite a few challenges. Here's the one I made: https://a.pomf.cat/wghgrz.jpg http://a.pomf.cat/kzhmpu.jpg
> 
> ...


 
 Because you are using a universal fit. the seal can only be made by the silicone tip, so when you say you loose seal because of the stripped shell, I don't understand it.
  
 Regarding the shape of your shell you should make it less triangular and more rounded so you could gain space to fit the drivers inside.
 Take a look at this shell
  http://www.aliexpress.com/item/New-****-UE-Custom-Made-Around-Ear-Earphone-HIFI-Monitor-Headphones-Noise-Reduction-Headset-With-MMCX/32502390629.html?ws_ab_test=searchweb201556_7_79_78_77_80,searchweb201644_5,searchweb201560_7
  
 You should do this, pay attention also where the connection for the cable is placed as it is where it should be to allow the cable to connect to the shell with as less discomfort as possible between it and your ear.
  
 The more drivers you want to fit, the more the shell needs to protrude outward adding more depth to it...Usually CIEMs allow for more drivers while retaining a "flusher" profile.
 Look at this picture from the layla thread   so yeah...
  
 Regarding the bores, you could make the tubes connect at a wider diameter point


----------



## Flukes

forcemajeure said:


> Because you are using a universal fit. the seal can only be made by the silicone tip, so when you say you loose seal because of the stripped shell, I don't understand it.
> 
> Regarding the shape of your shell you should make it less triangular and more rounded so you could gain space to fit the drivers inside.
> Take a look at this shell
> ...


 
 Can't you just have the tubes come all the way up to mesh?


----------



## snowlune

forcemajeure said:


> Because you are using a universal fit. the seal can only be made by the silicone tip, so when you say you loose seal because of the stripped shell, I don't understand it.
> 
> Regarding the shape of your shell you should make it less triangular and more rounded so you could gain space to fit the drivers inside.
> Take a look at this shell
> ...


 
  
 Thanks for the pictures, Those are giving me another valuable clue.
  
 What I've been trying to do is to align the drivers horizontally, perpendicular to the nozzle. The tube would have to make a 90 degree bend, which takes up more space horizontally.  This is how the drivers are aligned in Shure/Westone models. The way they get everything to fit is by not using any tubing at all beside the nozzle. All the drivers are enclosed inside a rubber boot which fires straight into the nozzle. The highs are damped with a single damper inside the nozzle.
  
 Looking at the pictures of the Layla/Angie sticking out in the ear, I'm strongly convinced that what they're doing is aligning the drivers parallel with the nozzle, where the drivers point directly at your eardrum. Judging by other pictures I've seen I'd assume they're using tubing and not the rubber boot design seen in Shure/Westone models. 
  
 Another alternative would be what Noble is doing. They're making the drivers point downwards, at the ground. The tubing would still have to make a 90 degree bend, but it seems like the space in human ears is only limited horizontally. You can increase the space by either making it stick out further or elongating it vertically, and either approach would not sacrifice comfort too much.
  
 As for the 3D printing, if you look closely at the shell, you'll notice that it is not completely smooth and solid. How a 3D printer works is it prints out these thin lines, and overlays them on top of each other to create a solid form. What happens when you have curvature across multiple planes at the same time is that the spacing between the lines becomes uneven. Sometimes the spacing becomes so large that you have tiny gaps between the lines.
  
 The drivers are connected to tubing, which connects into the nozzle hole. Here's where the seal is broken. I'm suspecting there's a hairline gap somewhere here.
  
 The cable connection can be done, although it might take some trial and error to make it fit at the right angle.


----------



## ForceMajeure

Regarding the broken seal on your current shell design, you could print the nozzle fully with no bores and then drill the bores to a fitting diameter with dremel's tips like these.
  
 There are so much pictures in the **** UE shell I linked in the previous thread that you could build a 3d model of it and print it, this is the most comfortable design I can see for a universal.
  
 There shouldn't be a problem fitting up to 4 drivers inside including CI's but I haven't tried it so it still needs to be put to the test.


----------



## pc27618349

Anyone know how long silicone ear impressions are good for? I've heard mixed reports of them changing shape over time.


----------



## MuZo2

Yes they do, time depends on impression material used.


----------



## piotrus-g

pc27618349 said:


> Anyone know how long silicone ear impressions are good for? I've heard mixed reports of them changing shape over time.


 

 From 2 weeks to 2 years depending on material. Green Otoform from Dreve practically doesn't change shape at all.


----------



## Mython

piotrus-g said:


> pc27618349 said:
> 
> 
> > Anyone know how long silicone ear impressions are good for? I've heard mixed reports of them changing shape over time.
> ...


 
  
  
 Didn't realise it lasted that long, but, as you and I have discussed, in the past, I definitely have noticed that the green Otoform material is 'denser' than the pink and the blue materials I've also experienced.


----------



## piotrus-g

mython said:


> Didn't realise it lasted that long, but, as you and I have discussed, in the past, I definitely have noticed that the green Otoform material is 'denser' than the pink and the blue materials I've also experienced.


 
 After a year it retains 99,6% of original shape, so the change is very very minimal. We have sucessfully (fit-wise) reused 2-year old impressions from Otoform AK.


----------



## Squirg

I've heard glycerin helps a bunch!  Where can I get it?


----------



## jbr1971

squirg said:


> I've heard glycerin helps a bunch!  Where can I get it?


 
  
 For soaking and final curing of the shells?
  
 I found a 6oz bottle at Walmart for $2-3.


----------



## raptor18

Bloody hell, the Chinese iec711 test rig I mentioned about a few posts back aren't fake, they are made by this Chinese company
 http://www.hzaihua.com/products_show.aspx?id=30
  
  
 And they claim they are iec compliant. I want to get a complete set. They also have microphones and pre amps.
  
 Anyone who knows this that can help which type to get?
  
 Edit: What do I need on the computer end


----------



## Xymordos

Those instruments aren't exactly cheap either though (costs $4,000 RMB for the mic from what I remember), but much cheaper compared to the competition


----------



## raptor18

http://world.taobao.com/item/14787698524.htm?fromSite=main&spm=a1z3o.7695460.0.0.JhBNuN
  
  
  
 About 3500 rmb for the whole set including mic and preamp


----------



## AudioJunki3

Has anyone here cracked the whole driver smear issue?
 When you have a crossover with multiple drivers and there is a slight delay with the drivers. 
  
 I was at headroom last weekend in London and spoke to the guy developing the ACS customs. He gave me an answer but it wasn't really helpful.
  
 Any advice would be helpful!
  
 Thanks


----------



## piotrus-g

audiojunki3 said:


> Has anyone here cracked the whole driver smear issue?
> When you have a crossover with multiple drivers and there is a slight delay with the drivers.
> 
> I was at headroom last weekend in London and spoke to the guy developing the ACS customs. He gave me an answer but it wasn't really helpful.
> ...


 

 And what is your question exactly?


----------



## AudioJunki3

piotrus-g said:


> And what is your question exactly?


 
 My question is, how are people doing it? Surely there will be a delay with a 3 way crossover.
  
 I work at Cyrus Audio, and we mainly design and build amplifiers. I have no knowledge of IEMs and customs. I tried the ACS and was blown away by their sound.


----------



## Xymordos

You mean...something like JH;s Freqphase?


----------



## piotrus-g

audiojunki3 said:


> My question is, how are people doing it? Surely there will be a delay with a 3 way crossover.
> 
> I work at Cyrus Audio, and we mainly design and build amplifiers. I have no knowledge of IEMs and customs. I tried the ACS and was blown away by their sound.


 
 In DIY the dealy is _almost_ negligible, (depends on drivers etc). but if you consider length of waves you'll see that up to 10kHz most of the frequencies shouldn't be a problem to handle easily.
 If the length of bass frequencies is in meters you don't have to worry much about dealy since the wave will travel its distance before your ear/brain will notice delay.
 I would have to show you some graphs of different set up of the same drivers. For DIY purposes if you use 1st order x-o inverse electrical phase of a speaker when needed and add correct damping on each driver then you really don't have to worry whether your woofer is 20 or 25mm away from the opening of a shell and tweeter is only 10mm or 16mm. Of course the length of the tubing has an effect on the sound itself (moves peaks) but that's a different story.
 For prefessional designs you purchase quality measuring equipement, calculate your design and experiment with different set up looking for the best configuation. You can manage delay times and take advantege of it creating something like single electrical phase design or delay woofer to provide faster or slower response f.e. very low low pass filter will make noticable difference to your ear/brain that would restult in different bass perception.


----------



## Squirg

Anyone know the dif. between the DTEC 30008 and 30265?  I know most people use the 30008 but I found a deal on 30265's and wondering if I should pull the trigger?
  
 Thanks!


----------



## s1190

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=L3tyY1nRq5E&feature=youtu.be

Anyone saw this video ? Harvey explaining his freqphass. The tube for tweeter is so long, impossible to fit into IEM.


----------



## raptor18

Well. There is a patent number on the YouTube video. Let's grab the details and do the same for our DIY iems


----------



## Hutnicks

Nothing but flowcharts and block diagrams accompanying the patent.
  
http://www.google.com/patents/US20130329906


----------



## ForceMajeure

forcemajeure said:


> Talking about phases and how to rectify them
> 
> Can you tell me If I understand correctly, this is how it works:
> 
> ...


 
 This is a post I made about rectifying phases about 5 months ago I didn't know that's how this was done.
  Also as piotrus-g said don't forget that tube length moves the high frequency peaks so it should be taken into consideration
 Does anyone know what software he uses on it's MAC for checking the phase alignment? Is it Fuzzmeasure? Are there any Windows alternatives?

 Anyway I still didn't made a complete CIEM of my own yet.
  
 I have received those drivers so far
 CI 22995 X4
 TWFK 30017 X4
 ED 29689 X2
 WBFK 30095 X2
 DTEC 30625 X2
 Sonion 2389 X2
Sonion 33aj007i/9 x2
  
I have no clue where are the minus terminals on the Sonion, the wiring is not clear from their website maybe someone know?
Right now I'​m experimenting with the drivers but it is very time consuming.​ If someone can suggest a design based on those drivers he is more than welcome.​


----------



## raptor18

I would start check the BA chart thread and try to use a typical layout as other headphones. Start with a single. Then a dual. I would guess we need measuring equipment so we know how the peaks move while cutting tubes. I just read Tyll s articles about understanding frequency response. I think that is important. But so try without measuring equipment first and see how far you can get with a single BA. I will be going to China in a few weeks, I will see if I can get a hold of measuring equipment. I doubt since I will travel to a boring city shenyang


----------



## MuZo2

Dont invest in costly measuring instruments unless you want to go pro. 2cc coupler with panasonic mic should be sufficient.


----------



## raptor18

Ok thanks. If I'm not mistaken, you posted a guide how to build this 2cc coupler. I will check it out soon as I'm on vacation and away now.


----------



## Mython

Speaking of CIEM measurements, here is something *purely for casual interest:*
  
www.head-fi.org/t/549298/review-spiral-ear-se-5-way-reference-a-new-level-of-resolution-review-posted-5-15-12/2340#post_12314205


----------



## jbr1971

I finally got the drivers wired and measured to figure out which filter combinations I wanted to test, and loaded everything into the shells last night to find out if all the work was worth it.
  
 I am using the TWFK/DTEC combo from my W4R's, and the dynamic driver from my Geek Verb. The DD is glued into a small hard silicone ear tip with the nozzle tube cut out to make a nice sealed enclosure (acoustic tubing fits into the outlet perfectly). I used blue tack as a temporary seal for the drivers and tubes to make it easier to swap pieces in and out during testing.
  
 The winning combination ended up being:
  
 TWFK - no filter
 DTEC - red filter
 DD - orange filter
  
 The result sounds incredible. The low end from the DD is an amazing complement to the TWFK/DTEC. The whole package probably gets the result to 90-95% of what I consider optimal, which I am very happy with considering this is my first build.
  
 Now to get everything pulled apart, the blue tack cleaned off, shell imperfections fixed, final seal of the drivers, faceplate fabricated, and final build completed.


----------



## ForceMajeure

jbr1971 said:


> I finally got the drivers wired and measured to figure out which filter combinations I wanted to test, and loaded everything into the shells last night to find out if all the work was worth it.
> 
> I am using the TWFK/DTEC combo from my W4R's, and the dynamic driver from my Geek Verb. The DD is glued into a small hard silicone ear tip with the nozzle tube cut out to make a nice sealed enclosure (acoustic tubing fits into the outlet perfectly). I used blue tack as a temporary seal for the drivers and tubes to make it easier to swap pieces in and out during testing.
> 
> ...


 
 Nice! 
 Using an eartip to clue in the DD is clever.
 Can you tell what are the resistor and capacitor value for the DTEC/TWFK combo and how is the crossover wired? 
 From the picture it looks like the DTEC/TWFK combo is attached to one tube using the red filter am I right?


----------



## jbr1971

forcemajeure said:


> Nice!
> Using an eartip to clue in the DD is clever.
> Can you tell what are the resistor and capacitor value for the DTEC/TWFK combo and how is the crossover wired?
> From the picture it looks like the DTEC/TWFK combo is attached to one tube using the red filter am I right?


 
  
 Thanks. I used up my one good idea for the month on that one.
  
 I honestly have no idea about the crossover, etc on the TWFK/DTEC. I used the stock Westone driver combo from the W4R, I did not change anything.
  
 Yes, the TWFK/DTEC are attached to one tube (stretched the end over both nozzles). The filter in the picture was the first test I did, and it was subsequently removed from the tube. The red filter is now directly over the DTEC nozzle so the TWFK output is not affected.


----------



## 39points

Subscribed, good luck


----------



## omgflyingbanana

Hi guys, unsure if this is the right place to post this. Does anyone know where to buy cheap dynamic IEM drivers that don't have an abyssmal frequency range/graph? I'm a poor student but I want to learn electrical/audio stuff, so hopefully I can find some drivers that are around $2.50?


----------



## ForceMajeure

omgflyingbanana said:


> Hi guys, unsure if this is the right place to post this. Does anyone know where to buy cheap dynamic IEM drivers that don't have an abyssmal frequency range/graph? I'm a poor student but I want to learn electrical/audio stuff, so hopefully I can find some drivers that are around $2.50?


 
 You could try on aliexpress and ask the seller if he have graph or what is more suited for neutral frequency vs bass boosted etc..


----------



## ForceMajeure

Anyone can tell me please the correct polarity of these drivers?


----------



## piotrus-g

forcemajeure said:


> Anyone can tell me please the correct polarity of these drivers?


 
 In case of 2389 the right side is + and left is -
  
 In the case of 33AJ007i/9 position of the driver doesn't matter as the right pad will always be + -> left "?" is negative and right "?" is positive on your pics.


----------



## wormyrocks

wormyrocks said:


> Yep, I've seen that and it's super useful, but I'm curious about how all those drivers are getting crossed over (especially the 4-6 driver assemblies in the last section). Are they all just connected in parallel and filtered with dampers?
> 
> Edit: also, I just had the idea to do faceplates by buying a pack of exotic veneer samples, CNC'ing a logo, and then inlaying it with turquoise. I posit that it would be quite inexpensive and look amazing. Has anyone done something similar?


 
 Update: we're finished! http://imgur.com/a/rjuzN
  
 Turquoise inlays look quite good.
  
 Now that our first pair is finally done, I feel like I should share the single most useful component in the build process: Bondic.
  
 http://notaglue.com/
  
 This stuff will change your life. You can use it for building up the body of the IEM, bonding shell to faceplate, covering imperfections, fixing drivers and connectors in place, coating tubes, insulating wires, filling cracks, making inlays, and more - and it cures in seconds instead of minutes, despite being essentially the same stuff as the shell acrylic. We *never* used epoxy for the entirety of our build process. It's a f'in lifesaver. Buy it now, ask questions later.
  
 I hope I'm not breaking any rules by plugging this; I promise I'm not a paid shill despite the "as seen on TV" nature of the product. You could probably get it much cheaper under a different brand name (search for "UV acrylic").


----------



## s1190

The crack on my Jh13Pro got wider and wider, sound because softer and muddy. Decided to pop open the faceplate today. 
  

  
 Silicon is used to keep everything in place.
 The DFK​  has the longest tube, curl and hidden under the 3300 and DTEC.​ Only one SMD visible, seems like capacitor.​ 3300 is wired serial, use a green damper which is really close to the receiver.​  
 ​


----------



## ForceMajeure

piotrus-g said:


> In case of 2389 the right side is + and left is -
> 
> In the case of 33AJ007i/9 position of the driver doesn't matter as the right pad will always be + -> left "?" is negative and right "?" is positive on your pics.


 
 Thanks, you are right for the 33AJ007i/9 no matter how I turn it it will alawys be the same. I think you confused the answer for the 33AJ007i/9. The "left ?" is positive and the "right ?" is negative. 
  
  
 Now, I measured the 33AJ007i/9, once in parallel and once in series and I don't get it. Why is the series outpouting more bass than the parallel.
 blue is in parallel, red in series 
  

  
  
 this is how I wired the parallel 
 this is how I wired in series
  
  
  
 in this picture I measured the same driver (in green) but just connected the green and red wire to one side with no interconnection for series or parallel.
 I got lower output around 1khz but the bass was similar to the driver connected in parallel
 
  
 Is this how it is supposed to be?
 I used the same length tube for all measurement and no dampers or resistors/caps.


----------



## raptor18

s1190 said:


> The crack on my Jh13Pro got wider and wider, sound because softer and muddy. Decided to pop open the faceplate today.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 Excellent! If you ever disassemble it even more , please do post more images. I'm very curious.
  
 It also seems freqphase is just tube length adoption.


----------



## AudioJunki3

That's exactly what freqphase is. What I don't understand is how it could be patented. Making a tube longer. Surely its experimentation of the user. If another company took the idea, but had different tube lengths to the ones specified in freqphase, would it still be a patent infringement?
  
 Of course I'm referring to a professional product, not a DIY type thing.


----------



## Raddiqal11

audiojunki3 said:


> That's exactly what freqphase is. What I don't understand is how it could be patented. Making a tube longer. Surely its experimentation of the user. If another company took the idea, but had different tube lengths to the ones specified in freqphase, would it still be a patent infringement?
> 
> Of course I'm referring to a professional product, not a DIY type thing.




It may be simple but the Research and Development behind it must have been extensive. It's not only the tube length but driver tuning. Different frequencies travel at different speeds and in order for all of the different frequencies from the different drivers to escape the sound tube at the exact same phase must have been very difficult to obtain. I think it's an amazing feature and one I hope to own in the future


----------



## AudioJunki3

raddiqal11 said:


> It may be simple but the Research and Development behind it must have been extensive. It's not only the tube length but driver tuning. Different frequencies travel at different speeds and in order for all of the different frequencies from the different drivers to escape the sound tube at the exact same phase must have been very difficult to obtain. I think it's an amazing feature and one I hope to own in the future


 
 Oh I'm not doubting that it wasn't difficult. I work in R&D and I know exactly how hard a simple thing can be sometimes.
  
 My real question was, Is it really a patent on the lengths of the tubes. Or the idea that different tube lengths are the way to correct phase.


----------



## MuZo2

You can read the patent and interpret for your self. You know how patent lawyers work.


----------



## tranhieu

forcemajeure said:


> Thanks, you are right for the 33AJ007i/9 no matter how I turn it it will alawys be the same. I think you confused the answer for the 33AJ007i/9. The "left ?" is positive and the "right ?" is negative.
> 
> 
> Now, I measured the 33AJ007i/9, once in parallel and once in series and I don't get it. Why is the series outpouting more bass than the parallel.
> ...


 
  
 1st question can be answered with BA's inductive nature. I remember posting something here few months ago.
 2nd question might have to do something with mechanical & acoustical resonance (that 1khz peak) & damping factor (bass difference).


----------



## ForceMajeure

tranhieu said:


> 1st question can be answered with BA's inductive nature. I remember posting something here few months ago.
> 2nd question might have to do something with mechanical & acoustical resonance (that 1khz peak) & damping factor (bass difference).


 
 So you think I could have different results if I use a resistor (say 20ohm) before the driver on both configurations (para/series) in regard of the bass level output?


----------



## tranhieu

forcemajeure said:


> So you think I could have different results if I use a resistor (say 20ohm) before the driver on both configurations (para/series) in regard of the bass level output?



The effect would be subtle though, might not even show up in the graph but still be audible.


----------



## raptor18

hutnicks said:


> Nothing but flowcharts and block diagrams accompanying the patent.
> 
> http://www.google.com/patents/US20130329906


 
  
 Are you guys sure Freqphase is only tube lenght? If you check the patent, it says there is a processor that handles "Acoustical timer".
 http://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/US20130329906A1/US20130329906A1-20131212-D00006.png


----------



## raptor18

To anybody who knows, Piotr and MuZo2?
  
 I will be travelling to China next week and meanwhile i will be picking up a IEC711 coupler. I already have a Behringer ECM8000 measurement microphone which has a 1/2 inch head, which is the same diameter used in a IEC711 coupler.
 Would it be a big difference to use the ECM8000 compared to the microphone and preamp that comes with the IEC711 coupler? I guess microphones that comes with the IEC711 used in such measurements are a little different than ECM8000.
  
 Edit: If i get anything, i will buy the whole kit.


----------



## raptor18

Any creative method of testing the drivers in the ear without sealing them permanently in the Shell during tuning?


----------



## MuZo2

raptor18 said:


> To anybody who knows, Piotr and MuZo2?
> 
> I will be travelling to China next week and meanwhile i will be picking up a IEC711 coupler. I already have a Behringer ECM8000 measurement microphone which has a 1/2 inch head, which is the same diameter used in a IEC711 coupler.
> Would it be a big difference to use the ECM8000 compared to the microphone and preamp that comes with the IEC711 coupler? I guess microphones that comes with the IEC711 used in such measurements are a little different than ECM8000.
> ...


 

 If you are buying fake iec711, also but the soundcard they sell, and any calibration they provide. They are configured for particular setup.


----------



## MuZo2

raptor18 said:


> Any creative method of testing the drivers in the ear without sealing them permanently in the Shell during tuning?


 
 You can use a tips from any iem , make a nozzle with one or two holes, not perfect method as insertion depth will change the tuning.


----------



## Silverprout

raptor18 said:


> Any creative method of testing the drivers in the ear without sealing them permanently in the Shell during tuning?


----------



## raptor18

muzo2 said:


> If you are buying fake iec711, also but the soundcard they sell, and any calibration they provide. They are configured for particular setup.


 
  
 They aren't fake. They claim they are the real deal and fully IEC 60318-4 (60711) compliant. I've seen charts where the acoustic impedance is almost identical to the GRAS RA0045 however i do understand that it's easy to fake such charts. 
I will have to trust what they say and their reputation online. It doesn't seem to be a donald duck company and they seem very professional, they've been in business for 24 years. They do many kind of instruments and many of them seem to be popular outside china.
  
Everything also comes calibrated and they have an option with a mic with a preamp which can be connected with XLR to +48 phantom power.


----------



## Cryok95

raptor18 said:


> They aren't fake. They claim they are the real deal and fully IEC 60318-4 (60711) compliant. I've seen charts where the acoustic impedance is almost identical to the GRAS RA0045 however i do understand that it's easy to fake such charts.
> I will have to trust what they say and their reputation online. It doesn't seem to be a donald duck company and they seem very professional, they've been in business for 24 years. They do many kind of instruments and many of them seem to be popular outside china.
> 
> Everything also comes calibrated and they have an option with a mic with a preamp which can be connected with XLR to +48 phantom power.


 
  
 Let us know how that goes, i've also been interested in that company and their IEC Mics


----------



## MuZo2

raptor18 said:


> They aren't fake. They claim they are the real deal and fully IEC 60318-4 (60711) compliant. I've seen charts where the acoustic impedance is almost identical to the GRAS RA0045 however i do understand that it's easy to fake such charts.


 
 I thought the one on taobao.


----------



## raptor18

muzo2 said:


> I thought the one on taobao.


 
  
 Yes, I wouldn't trust some of the IEC711 on taobao. I picked one which seems to be legit.
 I think i want to get the whole set. I will keep you updated if i get one.
  
 Edit:
 Cryok95, they have a sales representative in Singapore, maybe you can visit them and have a chat, and even test it


----------



## jbr1971

raptor18 said:


> Any creative method of testing the drivers in the ear without sealing them permanently in the Shell during tuning?


 
  
 If you look back a few pages I posted a picture from when I was testing drivers in my shells.
  
 I used blue tack to attach the tubes to the drivers, and attach the tubes to the shells to get good seals for comparisons.
  
 It only took a few minutes to clean the drivers and shells once I finished testing.


----------



## Xymordos

The company called "Hang Zhou Ai Hua" claims to produce proper IEC711 compliant equipment. (Website: http://www.hzaihua.com.cn/) 
  
 Not sure if they're any good but they look like an experienced manufacturer.


----------



## raptor18

xymordos said:


> The company called "Hang Zhou Ai Hua" claims to produce proper IEC711 compliant equipment. (Website: http://www.hzaihua.com.cn/)
> 
> Not sure if they're any good but they look like an experienced manufacturer.


 
  
 That's the one i'm ordering from 
  
 You also have these:
 http://en.rspono.com/
  
 But i haven't made so much background check on them but based on their product line, they look really solid.


----------



## Xymordos

I've never seen that one before :O 
  
 Though both websites only list the metal part. I can't seem to find the preamp or would it come in a package?


----------



## MuZo2

Seems its just the coupler and there is other device which you would need to buy separate.
 http://en.rspono.com/index.php/page-33-4.html


----------



## raptor18

Both of them have packages. 
 rspono told me that i would connect it to the soundcard. Aihua told me i needed a specific mic and preamp to connect it to +48 phantom power.
  
 Edit: I'm not so sure about the rspono one anymore and package with mic and preamp although they did tell me i would connect it to a soundcard.


----------



## Xymordos

Wow, did Aihua quote you a price for the entire functioning set? The 711 + Mic + Preamp + Power supply


----------



## raptor18

Yes
  
 3500 RMB for 711 coupler + Mic + PreAmp all calibrated.
  
 That's alright isn't it?

 They also have the option with holder and that jig to hold earpiece down.


----------



## raptor18

Check attachment

  
 Edit: I already have a Pro soundcard so i don't have to think about that.


----------



## Xymordos

That's...real cheap if it is actually calibrated properly.
  
 I really hope it works as advertised. Planning on ordering one too.


----------



## raptor18

My biggest problem is sending money to their bank. I can't do it in an easy way.


----------



## raptor18

How do (C)IEM manufacturers define number of ways on a crossovers? Is it based on number of caps? 1 cap=2 way? 2 caps=3 way? I guess a single TWFK is not two way? Do they count an acoustic low pass as an additional way?


----------



## MuZo2

Depends on Marketing department, bigger the marketing department or budget, bigger the crossover number


----------



## roughington

This has probably been asked before, but where can I find UIEM shells like the ones that UM uses that could accommodate more than 6 or so drivers. I see so many CIEMs go up for sale and while it's not as cheap as it would be to try and make my own with the time it takes to experiment I think 400-500 dollars for an 8-driver from a decent maker is a fair price the only thing is that most people do not do universal reshells. I know that you can buy some from luna shops but I have no idea how large some of them are other than the ones that are modeled after the noble ones, or the se535 shells.


----------



## AudioJunki3

roughington said:


> This has probably been asked before, but where can I find UIEM shells like the ones that UM uses that could accommodate more than 6 or so drivers. I see so many CIEMs go up for sale and while it's not as cheap as it would be to try and make my own with the time it takes to experiment I think 400-500 dollars for an 8-driver from a decent maker is a fair price the only thing is that most people do not do universal reshells. I know that you can buy some from luna shops but I have no idea how large some of them are other than the ones that are modeled after the noble ones, or the se535 shells.


 
 There are hundreds of shells on Aliexpress. The thing I found about that site is if you don't title it the way they do then you'll never find it.
  
 Try things like, DIY IEM, DIY Earphone. That will generally find you everything you need.


----------



## roughington

I didn't find hundreds but I found 4 listings 3 of which are noble/shure sized and the last one I have no clue how large it is


----------



## AudioJunki3

roughington said:


> I didn't find hundreds but I found 4 listings 3 of which are noble/shure sized and the last one I have no clue how large it is


 
 Like I said it really depends on how you word the search. I found plenty of options. 
 Regarding the sizes, I doubt you'll find anyone giving accurate internal volumes. But some do specify that they are comparable to the Angie and Layla Line-up.
  
 http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Custom-IEM-DIY-Housing-Shell-For-Shure-SE535-Fitear-AKR03-Angie-Laylar-etc-Armature-Earphone-LN005289/32610269470.html?spm=2114.01010208.3.120.quTCj7&ws_ab_test=searchweb201556_1,searchweb201644_2_505_506_503_504_502_10001_10002_10017_10010_10005_10011_10006_10003_10004_10009_10008,searchweb201560_8,searchweb1451318400_-1,searchweb1451318411_6449&btsid=35c4e206-8ddc-4089-b37b-90756b1b8e59


----------



## Clarence1

Hi, I'm new here and I would like to make a set of DIY IEMs. I'm not a die hard audiophile so I would like to keep it simple and on a budget, so I think I'd go with a dual BA driver. It seems like the Knowles QG and Sonion AcuPass are quite common, but is there any better setup with 2 single drivers instead? And does anyone have experience with the Sonion 26­E25WT02? It seems like they have a broader range than the 1723 Acupass, but I can't seem to find many informations about their qualities, or even if they are actually avaiable on the "open market".
  
 And do you have any thoughts on MMCX or 2-pin/TF10 style connectors? In terms of cable selection, durability, how snug they fit, etc.
  
 Thank you.


----------



## AudioJunki3

clarence1 said:


> Hi, I'm new here and I would like to make a set of DIY IEMs. I'm not a die hard audiophile so I would like to keep it simple and on a budget, so I think I'd go with a dual BA driver. It seems like the Knowles QG and Sonion AcuPass are quite common, but is there any better setup with 2 single drivers instead? And does anyone have experience with the Sonion 26­E25WT02? It seems like they have a broader range than the 1723 Acupass, but I can't seem to find many informations about their qualities, or even if they are actually avaiable on the "open market".
> 
> And do you have any thoughts on MMCX or 2-pin/TF10 style connectors? In terms of cable selection, durability, how snug they fit, etc.
> 
> Thank you.


 
 Hi Clarence1, 
 Welcome to the thread, I'm in a similar boat to you at the moment. The information I can give you might not be the 'best' option, but it might help you. The majority of sonion and knowles BA drivers are available to the market, sites such as 'mouser' and 'digikey' can supply them, no minimum order quantity which is good.
 I understand you are in Canada, so you'd be using digikey for now. Some of the knowles pre assembled units would be a good place to start, they have crossovers and appear to be designed for a plug 'n' play type setup, if you go to the knowles and sonion sites, they will also have technical documents with the driver specs, frequency range etc.
  
 I work in a high end audio company, but we make amps and DAC's, unfortunately my knowledge of acoustics is limited.I do know the knowles have a PDF about designing BA earphones.
 But with these projects its truly a trial and error thing. 
  
 Feel free to PM me and we could discuss this in more detail.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

A view of my latest projects.....

The smoky iem's are a Westone 3 re-shell with an added Knowles CI-22955 with a 50ohn resistor. Green dampers on the tweeter and red on the CI driver. Sounds great with a more equal mid-tone roar. 

The blue shells are going to house a 6 driver configuration with CI x 2 a HODVETEC and a TWFK with a 3 way crossover. I haven't tested this setup yet but have drivers coming in this week.


----------



## bunnypangsai

Planning to do a hybrid, with dd being the bass + 29689 being mid-high. Do I put a cap on the dd? How do you guys measure without using the acoustics instrument?


----------



## briancortez2112

Those are looking great man!
 Good Work


----------



## briancortez2112

shilohsjustice said:


> A view of my latest projects.....
> 
> The smoky iem's are a Westone 3 re-shell with an added Knowles CI-22955 with a 50ohn resistor. Green dampers on the tweeter and red on the CI driver. Sounds great with a more equal mid-tone roar.
> 
> The blue shells are going to house a 6 driver configuration with CI x 2 a HODVETEC and a TWFK with a 3 way crossover. I haven't tested this setup yet but have drivers coming in this week.


 
 Those are looking great man!
 Good Work


----------



## grushaaa

Hi. Maybe someone know how i can get impendanse graph depending on the frequency. i use audiotester program and 10ohm resistor but its not work good


----------



## Mython

mython said:


> mython said:
> 
> 
> > Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> ...


 
  
  
 Further to the above, I notice some interesting narrative in the marketing spiel for Campfire Audio's _*Jupiter*_ UIEM:
  


> *The Jupiter utilizes a unique approach to achieve its soaring high frequency response.  An optimized resonator assembly replaces the traditional tube and dampener system of may earphones.  This system’s high frequency extension is unattainable by with the more common conventional techniques.*


 
  
  
 I haven't seen any internal pics or exploded diagrams, but I suspect it may be something similar to the above discussion.
  
 I wonder if these companies are designing the parameters of the resonant chambers using computer-modeling of soundwave interactions, or if they're winging it and manually refining the tuning with a physical unit 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 On the assumption that they're using computer-modeling, I wonder which software they're using for that task?
  
  
 .


----------



## MuZo2

Wondering if its just to get around the patent ?


----------



## ForceMajeure

grushaaa said:


> Hi. Maybe someone know how i can get impendanse graph depending on the frequency. i use audiotester program and 10ohm resistor but its not work good


 
 You can use ARTA, there is a software that comes with it called Limp made for measuring impedance. You will need to build something called a jig (which consist of a  resistor of known value and some cables to connect to mic input and headphone input) to make measurements.
 Here are some explantion http://soundhobby.com/measurementsystem.htm
 Also you can search on google image for other example of the " limp jig" like this  https://sites.google.com/site/amateuraudio/projects-1/arta-limp-and-or-room-eq-wizard-impedance-jig
  
 This blog in Japanese have the easiest jig diagram if you just have a resistor and earphone cables http://fuchinove.ninja-mania.jp/artaimpedance.html


----------



## ForceMajeure

briancortez2112 said:


> Those are looking great man!
> Good Work


 
 Dude, I know you kinda make your own "professional thing" with CIEMs but you are more than welcome to share with us thoughts, pics and stuff...


----------



## grushaaa

forcemajeure said:


> You can use ARTA, there is a software that comes with it called Limp made for measuring impedance. You will need to build something called a jig (which consist of a  resistor of known value and some cables to connect to mic input and headphone input) to make measurements.
> Here are some explantion http://soundhobby.com/measurementsystem.htm
> Also you can search on google image for other example of the " limp jig" like this  https://sites.google.com/site/amateuraudio/projects-1/arta-limp-and-or-room-eq-wizard-impedance-jig
> 
> This blog in Japanese have the easiest jig diagram if you just have a resistor and earphone cables http://fuchinove.ninja-mania.jp/artaimpedance.html


 
 Thank you very helpfull.


----------



## briancortez2112

forcemajeure said:


> Dude, I know you kinda make your own "professional thing" with CIEMs but you are more than welcome to share with us thoughts, pics and stuff...


 
 This is one of the latest for a Buddy, wood faceplates with amber shells... basic 3 driver CI+twfk


----------



## omgflyingbanana

Let's say I'm poor as hell but I want to make some universal IEMs, what should I do? I'm thinking of using Knowles RAB and 3D printing my own shell. Thoughts? Any better driver(s) out there for around the same price as the RAB?


----------



## tirrorex

Hello guys ! New user who join today to let you know how awesome your thread (and this forum) is.
 I learned ton of things though i didn't get through all the pages.
 Currently going to make my first pair ever of ciems.
 Since the process to create my own shells seemed to be kinda complicated and i didn't had a lot of money to spend on it i ended up buying premade custom hollow shells.
 Following recommandations of the vendor setup will be a triple driver with one knowles gk-31732-000 and one knowles BF-1861-000 by iem.
 Any thought on the performance of this setup?
  
 Will definitly gonna go into the trouble of building a better and more expensive setup in the near future but i thing more knowledge will be needed.
 My goal is to build a hybrid ciem but for now i'm not sure what components i will choose.
  
 Seems that the shell will be kinda crowded with just one driver piece, how do you guys manage to put that much drivers inside of your shells? (like companys putting 12drivers or more)
 Do that require bigger shells?
  
 Also i saw that lear was building semi-hard shells, that looks really tempting, not sure how to get this effect though, seems not possible with 3d printing.
  
@omgflyingbanana : electronic parts costed me 117dollars.
  
@briancortez2112 :  the amber shells looks amawing ! Didn't know that was possible


----------



## ForceMajeure

briancortez2112 said:


> This is one of the latest for a Buddy, wood faceplates with amber shells... basic 3 driver CI+twfk


 
 Sssexxy. You really mastered the process...how many have you done so far?


----------



## briancortez2112

forcemajeure said:


> Sssexxy. You really mastered the process...how many have you done so far?


 
 Thanks 
 I think I'm on about the 70th pair since my 1st successful set.
  
 Keeps me very busy since I also have a full-time shift working job........ Probably a little to busy


----------



## omgflyingbanana

Can anyone comment on the RAB? How bassy is the "warm bass tuned" RAB? I'm all for neutral sound sig but I want a "fun" bassy IEM.


----------



## Clarence1

I'm trying to gather all the pieces I need to make my non custom IEMs.
  
 The shell will most probably be turned wood with an inner diameter of 6mm, and I will be using the Sonion Acupass 26-E25, which has a sound exhaust of 2mm diameter..
 So, I'm wondering how I should make my sound nozzle and connect it with the driver (with a sound tube). Sonion says 10mm of sound tube and a 1,2-2,5mm nozzle is what we should aim, but does a cone nozzle changes anything or I can connect the tube straight to the nozzle pipe? I'm sorry it's a bit hard to explain and english isn't my first language.
  
 I would also like to know if you people think it would be better to cnc machine it or 3d print it? Or any other method? I can't seem to find anything on the market (wether generic coupler/nozzles or earphone parts) that would fit directly.
  
 Here are some pictures:
 basic design with a straight inner tube (2mm ID, 2,5mm OD)
 http://i.imgur.com/PDnFE6q.png
  
 Cone style design, more similar so regular earbuds, is it any useful, and how do I connect the sound pipe then?
 http://i.imgur.com/h2EPe2b.png
  
 Informations from Sonion to tune tubing. Should I consider the sound tube from the driver and nozzle as one (similar pipe diameter untill the exit and about 10mm total lenght) or as two different parts than I can tune independently (different diameter and lenght for both parts)?
 http://i.imgur.com/RoJzgcy.png
  
 Thanks in advance.


----------



## dustdevil

piotrus-g said:


> The first scheme is correct. Yes.
> The second would look like this: sorry for my paint skills


 
 Do I need the capacitors if I am only using the TWFK? I think a capacitor is used to connect the positive terminals on the proprietary TWFK that are used in the ue700 and dba02 but what does it do to the sound?


----------



## piotrus-g

dustdevil said:


> Do I need the capacitors if I am only using the TWFK? I think a capacitor is used to connect the positive terminals on the proprietary TWFK that are use in the ue700 and dba02 but what does it do to the sound?


 
 If you are using TWFK-30017 then you need caps, if you are using proprietary drivers from other earphone than no, you may not need another cap, but on the other hand frequency may be completely out of shape with design above.


----------



## dustdevil

piotrus-g said:


> If you are using TWFK-30017 then you need caps, if you are using proprietary drivers from other earphone than no, you may not need another cap, but on the other hand frequency may be completely out of shape with design above.


 
 What value would be appropriate if I'm using 30017 on its own?


----------



## piotrus-g

dustdevil said:


> What value would be appropriate if I'm using 30017 on its own?


 

 ~20-2,2uF i think. Depends on what's your goal.


----------



## omgflyingbanana

Tried to make my own universal in-ear shells, can anyone with a 3D printer print these and test them out? Much thanks!
  
 http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1393636


----------



## dustdevil

piotrus-g said:


> ~20-2,2uF i think. Depends on what's your goal.


 
 My (unrealistic) goal is anything between these 2 curves. Also is there any differences between soldering the cap directly on the driver like the proprietary drivers and connecting them by wires like your design? 
 EDIT: I tried the TWFK without caps and they sound pretty decent, how does adding caps improve the sound?


----------



## bunnypangsai

Just finished soldering the components. Does the placement of drives make a difference? In a dual bore system, does the middle/high freq be the upper bore or??


----------



## ForceMajeure

bunnypangsai said:


> Just finished soldering the components. Does the placement of drives make a difference? In a dual bore system, does the middle/high freq be the upper bore or??


 
 I don't think so.


----------



## Shawn71

bunnypangsai said:


> Just finished soldering the components. Does the placement of drives make a difference? In a dual bore system, does the middle/high freq be the upper bore or??




Its good if mid/hi bore is focussed as much as centered to the ear canal (center firing?), imo.....but I wld also wait for our guru's opinions.


----------



## Clarence1

omgflyingbanana said:


> Tried to make my own universal in-ear shells, can anyone with a 3D printer print these and test them out? Much thanks!
> 
> http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1393636


 
  
 How did you find OnShare? Some friend asked me to try it but I haven't played with it so far.
 I might be 3d printing some parts in a couple of weeks too, but I think that prior to 3d print everything, it might be worth it to make some clay (or other soft material that hardens) models first to test the fit and proportions.


----------



## omgflyingbanana

clarence1 said:


> How did you find OnShare? Some friend asked me to try it but I haven't played with it so far.
> I might be 3d printing some parts in a couple of weeks too, but I think that prior to 3d print everything, it might be worth it to make some clay (or other soft material that hardens) models first to test the fit and proportions.


 
 It's really nice, very similar to Inventor. I'd recommend giving it a go, it's free and browser-based.


----------



## roughington

Does anyone have a source for titanium sound tubes like the ones that UM and several others use?


----------



## MuZo2

I think dental technicians might have them.


----------



## tranhieu

roughington said:


> Does anyone have a source for titanium sound tubes like the ones that UM and several others use?




Does UM has any product using Ti tubing? I don't recall anyone other than FitEar using Ti in their earfones.


----------



## MuZo2

Its getting more common now, Lear BD4.2 has it. Campfire Audio Jupiter, I think I have seen some more ...


----------



## Xymordos

BD4.2 uses copper iirc.
  
 I saw titanium ones from Taobao but they're quite expensive.


----------



## tranhieu

The Lear one is copper, not Ti. Jupiter is made of Al, so not Ti either.
  
 AFAIK Flare is the only one so far having its body lathed out of a Ti bar. But that's not exactly a tube though.


----------



## roughington

I honestly didn't know what material they used but I was torn between ti and aluminum so I took a shot in the dark


----------



## jbr1971

After 5 months of reading (& re-reading) this thread, gathering supplies, trial & error, & delays, I am finally done with version 1.
  
They did not come out exactly as I had hoped (originally wanted a formica faceplate, but it did not work properly, so I went with clear), but given what I had to work with, & my limited knowledge at the outset, they actually sound pretty good.
  
The next set will be even better (& will be much quicker/cheaper to put together)...
  
(The final assembly pics, other pics can be found in the archive)


----------



## MuZo2

On first try they look incredible, great job


----------



## jbr1971

muzo2 said:


> On first try they look incredible, great job


 
  
 Thanks. I definitely learned a great deal with this one that I will take into version 2 and beyond.


----------



## Mython

tranhieu said:


> roughington said:
> 
> 
> > Does anyone have a source for titanium sound tubes like the ones that UM and several others use?
> ...


 
  
  
 Anyone here know any details about the metal 'resonator' mentioned here?:
  


> Originally Posted by *cleg* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> BTW, I forgot to mention that AA Lab is doing FitEar reshells with metal resonator updates
> 
> ...


----------



## Xymordos

Fitear just uses a titanium sound bore don't they? With a horn design at the end of it?


----------



## ForceMajeure

mython said:


> Anyone here know any details about the metal 'resonator' mentioned here?:


 
 Seems like a metal tube attached directly to the high frequency driver.


----------



## Mython

Yes, it might be a conventional (albeit metal) tube.
  
 I was just wondering if it might be something more adventurous


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Hey Guys & Gals, I'm doing a re-she'll on a set of Westone UM3x and thought all would like a pic of the disassembled unit. Interesting to know its a CL driver and TWFK. I'm testing the Resistor and or Capacitor for values. Interesting to know that there is only a resistor and possibly a capacitor in the circuit and a white acoustical damper and they consider it a passive 3-way crossover. Shows how the marketing side really was back in the day.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

...........HMMMM my meter is reading 37.5 ohms and 32.3 ohms, only reading Resistors and not reading any as a Capacitors.


----------



## Shilohsjustice




----------



## omgflyingbanana

What's the best single driver?


----------



## MuZo2

shilohsjustice said:


> Shows how the marketing side really was back in the day.


 
 Its same now.


----------



## MuZo2

omgflyingbanana said:


> What's the best single driver?


 

 I think that would be ED29689, but you can also look at dual pre configured drivers like TWFK, GQ, or Accupass.


----------



## omgflyingbanana

I've heard the TWFK is a bit lacking in the low end, and I have the GQ's, they are also thin in the bass. The ED29689's frequency curve has a huge bump in the mid-region with treble rolling off before it even hits 10k hz, and a very short low end, though I suspect it has something to do with how they measure the FR curves.
  

  
 What would be the best single driver with a warm/slightly bassy or V-shaped sig?


----------



## piotrus-g

omgflyingbanana said:


> What would be the beest single driver with a warm/slightly bassy or V-shaped sig?


 
 Dynamic


----------



## MuZo2

1723 Acupass might be ok, but would be hard to find.


----------



## omgflyingbanana

I'm not sure if it's just me, but I'm having trouble finding suitable dynamic drivers for IEMs.


----------



## jbr1971

omgflyingbanana said:


> I'm not sure if it's just me, but I'm having trouble finding suitable dynamic drivers for IEMs.


 
  
 I had the same problem. I bought a couple sets of "cheap" consumer IEMs with dynamic drivers in them to see if they would work.
  
 In the end I ended up using the dd's from the Geek Verb I had. They sound really good when tuned appropriately.


----------



## omgflyingbanana

*DIY Etymotic ER-4*
  
 I created a 3D-printable model of my planned clone of the Etymotic ER-4s. I'd love if someone who has the money (like $60) to take the plunge and try to build one of these and give me feedback. I'd do it myself but it's impossible for me right now since I am a poor high school student.
  
*Here it is!*
  
 Instructions copied and pasted from the thingiverse link:


> This is a shell mimicing the legendary Etymotic ER4. Quick rundown of how it's supposed to be assembled:
> 
> 
> Grab 2 *ED-29689*'s from Digikey/Mouser as well as an old earphone cable cannibalized from broken (or working) earphones. The hole in the back cap is designed for cords 1-1.5mm thick, anything over that won't fit.
> ...


 
 Print settings: 100% infill and preferably ABS
  
 Once again, hopefully an adventurous head-fi'er will decide to give it a try and give me some feedback so I can tweak the design.
  
 Edit: Got some math wrong, need to fix the model lol


----------



## omgflyingbanana

Anyone here thinking about the cheapest possible way to have an IEM with a removable cable? I looked on Aliexpress for some cheap cables and connectors:
  
 Cable: http://www.aliexpress.com/item/High-Quality-Earphone-Cable-Upgrade-Single-Crystal-Copper-Wire-Detach-Cable-For-Shure-****-Astrotec/32429797792.html
  
 Connector (2x): http://www.aliexpress.com/item/MMCX-female-coax-connector-straight-type-PCB-mount-goldplated-NEW/32266657256.html
  
 All this comes to a whopping $11.54 (thanks to free shipping).
  
 Thoughts? There are even cheaper cables running down to around $5 but I chose the cable with a decent amount of positive reviews.
 Edit: some litz wire: http://m.aliexpress.com/search.htm?keywords=litz


----------



## Clarence1

I think I ordered that cable. I also ordered one from Lunashop at a similar price, I want to compare both. The only thing about free shipping from China is that it takes an eternity to get there.


----------



## shotgunshane

jbr1971 if you are still looking for verb drivers to build with, shoot me a pm. I'll donate mine- you pay shipping.


----------



## jbr1971

shotgunshane said:


> @jbr1971 if you are still looking for verb drivers to build with, shoot me a pm. I'll donate mine- you pay shipping.


 
  
 Cool, thank you. Check your inbox.


----------



## raptor18

So i got myself the Aihua IEC711 Coupler.
  
 It seems to be very accurate. Compare my UE900 meausurement with Rin Chois and Tylls. It's the grey "raw" measurement  without compensation.
  

  
 Here is Rin Chois:
  

  
 Here is Tylls
  

  
 That's quiet accurate isn't it considering i didn't really elaborate a lot with insertion depth and other factors?
 I didn't even calibrate my system such as my sound card (should i?).
  
 Now as a comparison i used this cheap rig with a behringer ECM8000 (another similar is Dayton Audio EMM-6).
  
  

  
  
 I tried two different tube lengths (by pushing the tube in) and got these measurements which i think is usuable for relative measurements.
  

  
  
 I did this so you guys can setup a cheap meausuring system and understand the differences 
  
 Just get a cheap omnidirectional measuring microphone and an about 12 mm ID tube and your set.
  
 Or do as me, and get the real deal


----------



## MuZo2

What other iems do you have?


----------



## raptor18

Vsonic Gr07
 Vsonic VC02
 Sony Mh1C
  
 I didn't like how the GR07 measurment came out in my IEC711 coupler. One of the peaks is higher than the one compared to Tyll and Rins.
 Also the Mh1C measurment came quiet ok but one peak were a little shifted.
  
 Edit: My Mh1C Measurement came out almost perfect now if i compare it to this: 
  
 http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Crusoqsedg8/ULXgB6Y6p9I/AAAAAAAAC5M/5R10ieyGOAM/s1600/Untitled-2.gif
  
 From:
  
 http://rinchoi.blogspot.se/2013/01/sony-mh1c-is-bad-excuse-better-than.html
  
 I still don't like how the VC02 and Gr07 comes out. Very different to other measurements.


----------



## MuZo2

Can you please post MH1c measurement, I will try to measure mine.


----------



## raptor18

Here is with IEC711
  

  
 Looks more or less exactly the same as:
 http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Crusoqsedg8/ULXgB6Y6p9I/AAAAAAAAC5M/5R10ieyGOAM/s1600/Untitled-2.gif
 From Rin Choi
  
 Edit: I get the exact same FR as the creator of Mh1C with IEC711 coupler. http://www.head-fi.org/t/634193/lightbox/position/3 
 It seems Tylls measurement might not be correct or he's not using IEC711?
  
 Then we have with ECM8000 and tube:
  

  
 The red curve is 2 mm longer.
  
 Very interesting! This one looks quiet good compared to IEC711 version! I think if i adjust the tube length, i could get it even better.


----------



## raptor18

I want to create a single driver setup.
  
 I have Sonion 2389 and 2354. Which one is most suitable and why?
  
 Edit: The specs for these two are almost identical. Would someone please be kind and explain what i just highlighted in the attached picture? Why is the nom. drive level different? Why not stick to one standard?


----------



## FARfromHOME

2389 is usually tweeter, 2354 is vented and better as full range.


----------



## piotrus-g

raptor18 said:


> I want to create a single driver setup.
> 
> I have Sonion 2389 and 2354. Which one is most suitable and why?
> 
> Edit: The specs for these two are almost identical. Would someone please be kind and explain what i just highlighted in the attached picture? Why is the nom. drive level different? Why not stick to one standard?


 

 2354 and add at least 10 Ohm resistor in series to avoid amp impedance issues.


----------



## MuZo2




----------



## raptor18

piotrus-g said:


> 2354 and add at least 10 Ohm resistor in series to avoid amp impedance issues.


 
  
 Thanks guys.
  
 I'm trying to learn here, please help on the response above. I want to increase the total impedance / resistance with the extra added resistor because a lower impedance / resistance would draw a lot of current from the amp which can be painful for it? Also the added resistor would increase the total resistance / impedance compared to the amps output imepdance which would decrease the voltage drop over the BA which is preferable? Also, why simply not use a BA with higher impedance and skip the resistor like the 2356 which has an impedance of 41.5.
  
 Roughly what impedance is ideal for IEMs and why? Is the ideal impedance requested by the Class D amp which is mostly used to drive IEMs?


----------



## piotrus-g

raptor18 said:


> Thanks guys.
> 
> I'm trying to learn here, please help on the response above. I want to increase the total impedance / resistance with the extra added resistor because a lower impedance / resistance would draw a lot of current from the amp which can be painful for it? Also the added resistor would increase the total resistance / impedance compared to the amps output imepdance which would decrease the voltage drop over the BA which is preferable? Also, why simply not use a BA with higher impedance and skip the resistor like the 2356 which has an impedance of 41.5.
> 
> Roughly what impedance is ideal for IEMs and why? Is the ideal impedance requested by the Class D amp which is mostly used to drive IEMs?


 
 1. The issue with impedance comes to having enough bass quantity - with higher output impedance of the source you'd get very flat sound and not enough bass. In other words adding some resistance reduce potential problems with synergy.
 2. Of course if you can use driver with different (higher?) impedance. However is not that simple as added coil to driver provides slightly different response than simple resistance in series (at least that's what I've obsereved).
 3. There's no such thing as ideal impedance. The rule of thumb is that IEM impedance should be around 8x of the output impedance of an amp.


----------



## Mython

piotrus-g said:


> 1. The issue with impedance comes to having enough bass quantity - with higher output impedance of the source you'd get very flat sound and not enough bass. In other words adding some resistance reduce potential problems with synergy.


 
  
  
 I defer to you greater expertise in terms of CIEM design, Peter, but I still have serious misgivings about the inclusion of resistors in the primary signal path (by which I mean in between the amplifier and the configured CIEM - or, to put it another way, the use of a resistor affecting _*all*_ drivers and components, as a whole, rather than one serving as a legitimate crossover component to tune drivers_ relative to one another_, etc.).
  
 It unnecessarily pollutes the signal path, and makes a mockery of amp and DAP designers bothering to engineer low output impedances, in the first place.
  
  
 If I purchase a CIEM with a low impedance, and I perhaps find it quite susceptible to audible hiss, then I have an _option_ to use an impedance adapter, like _*UEs*_, or Etymotic, etc., and some would readily grab that opportunity, but I would personally prefer not to.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/430688/home-made-iems/4245#post_12212969
  
 But if you were to take that decision out of my control, by hiding a resistor in the signal path, within the CIEM shell, then, to be frank, that would really p1$$ me off! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 To me, that would be sufficient to be a deal-breaker.


----------



## piotrus-g

mython said:


> I defer to you greater expertise in terms of CIEM design, Peter, but I still have serious misgivings about the inclusion of resistors in the primary signal path (by which I mean in between the amplifier and the configured CIEM - or, to put it another way, the use of a resistor affecting _*all*_ drivers and components, as a whole, rather than one serving as a legitimate crossover component to tune drivers_ relative to one another_, etc.).
> 
> It unnecessarily pollutes the signal path, and makes a mockery of amp and DAP designers bothering to engineer low output impedances, in the first place.
> 
> ...


 
 Great to hear your input on the subject
  
 Haha! I can tell you that _personally _I use drivers with suitable impedance rather than trying to match the output by adding resistance. My feelings about it are not as extreme though. The use of resistor f.e. for CI has typically very possitive effect by speeding up attack and shortening decay.


----------



## Mython

piotrus-g said:


> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Well, I hope you realised that I was slightly 'pushing your buttons', to see how you'd respond.
  
 But, although I wasn't being _*100%*_ serious, I was being 90% serious - I really do dislike the use of resistors in the total signal path.
  
 I have made a few DIY loudspeakers, over the years, and I wouldn't dream of doing such a thing in a loudspeaker.
  
 Back to CIEMs, most serious CIEM buyers are savvy enough to know that they need a suitably low output-impedance on their DAP or amp, and (IMO) they have a right to the purest signal path possible, for their very substantial investment in audiophile gear. I don't expect to pay $1500-$2000 on a pair of TOTL CIEMs, only to find there is a bloody great resistor sneaked into the main signal path, within the inaccessible shell.
  
  
 As for tuning a CI driver - I take no issue with that, as it is a driver, not the total signal path.


----------



## omgflyingbanana

Does anyone have any cheap single armatures for sale? I know I'm a relatively new user but on /r/hardwareswap I have a bit of rep.


----------



## Xymordos

I'm using a CI driver for bass right now but I found it too loud even after the low pass filter I used. I ended up having to use a huge resistor to hold the bass down. Is there another driver I could use that has less bass (But still very good bass?). Would BK drivers be a good substitution or would they be much worse than the CI in the bass department?
  
  
 Edit:
 BK26824
 BK28507
 BK28562
  
 Anyone knows which one is bassier?


----------



## raptor18

Thank you all for your responses. It has helped me a lot. I'm still reading and trying to understand these small BA's in detail =)
  
 I can actually understand why Mython doesn't like having resistors across the whole signal.
  
 A resistor will attenuate very valuable voltage over the BA. See picture below. 

  
 For  traditional speakers, this voltage drop is quiet serious as it will affect bass because a damping effect (i don't remember the exact name of this effect) making it bloated and less "tight".
  
 I have read before that a resistor connected in series with the CI will make the BASS tighter. How this is possible is beyond my understanding as i would guess the opposite.
  
 So any kind of resistor, or even capacitors (as it also has resistive effects), will affect the BA full potential as it will kill the full voltage swing it could get without these passive components connected in series with the BA.
  
 Any comments?


----------



## raptor18

And obviously a few of the most popular drivers are voltage driven.
  
 From
 http://www.sonion.com/Products/Transducers/~/media/Files/Products/Application%20Notes/Transducers/Introduction%20of%20Receivers_AN_rev006.ashx
  

  

 So basically resistors in series = bad


----------



## raptor18

I just read that it's easy to kill drivers by soldering of the soldier pads. How do I know that I killed it? Is there a way to fix it? I can see the holes clearly behind the pads, the pads are off.


----------



## jbr1971

raptor18 said:


> I just read that it's easy to kill drivers by soldering of the soldier pads. How do I know that I killed it? Is there a way to fix it? I can see the holes clearly behind the pads, the pads are off.


 
  
 So far I've been lucky to not kill any drivers so I'm not sure if yours are dead, although from the description I'm leaning towards yes.
  
 When I solder drivers I tin the wire, then I just quickly tap the iron on the wire/pad a couple of times so there is very little sustained heat transfer. Even with that minimal contact it is enough to make a good joint.
  
 Good luck.


----------



## pc27618349

raptor18 said:


> I just read that it's easy to kill drivers by soldering of the soldier pads. How do I know that I killed it? Is there a way to fix it? I can see the holes clearly behind the pads, the pads are off.


 
 If the pads have come off the driver, the driver is absolutely unusable.


----------



## AudioJunki3

So I was lucky enough to get given one of these. I have also been offered the frequency analyser, but I'd rather not have to use a great big box, as its a bit obsolete now. 
  
 Is there any way to connect this up to a PC and use some software instead of the old piece of equipment?
  
 If anyone can shed some light on this that would be amazing.
 Cheers


----------



## n82558

So i've been working on a set of CIEMs and can't get the nail acrylic I"m using to harden at all. I've even tried just exposing it through the top of the mold (so the light is hitting the acrylic directly) to see if I was going crazy and it still didn't harden. This is what I'm using now: http://www.amazon.com/Seche-Ultra-V-Top-Coat-Ounce/dp/B0091IJ4C2
  
 I've tried with both a nail light and a black light bulb with exposure times ranging from 3 minutes to an hour and its still just liquid after all that time. Is there a particular brand that anyone has had luck with?


----------



## John Furno

Hi everyone, I've been a long time lurker on this thread admiring all of the beautiful work and i finally decided to try to have a go at making my own. I want to try something simple for my first build so im thinking about using the knowles GK drivers, I just have a couple questions that i would love some advice on before ordering.
  
 How long should my audio tubes be on the TWFK and the CI sound ports?
 What dampers should i use to fine-tune the sound?
  
 Thank you all so much for the great thread, i cant wait to get started!


----------



## omgflyingbanana

> What dampers should i use to fine-tune the sound?


 
 I know the green (1500 ohm) dampers are popular on the mid/high port with no dampers on the CI. If you're feeling the need for some heavier bass I hear the orange (3300 ohm) dampers could be used on the mid/high port.


----------



## pc27618349

n82558 said:


> So i've been working on a set of CIEMs and can't get the nail acrylic I"m using to harden at all. I've even tried just exposing it through the top of the mold (so the light is hitting the acrylic directly) to see if I was going crazy and it still didn't harden. This is what I'm using now: http://www.amazon.com/Seche-Ultra-V-Top-Coat-Ounce/dp/B0091IJ4C2
> 
> I've tried with both a nail light and a black light bulb with exposure times ranging from 3 minutes to an hour and its still just liquid after all that time. Is there a particular brand that anyone has had luck with?


 
  
 What material is your mold made of?
 What nail light and "black light bulb" are you using?


----------



## n82558

pc27618349 said:


> What material is your mold made of?
> What nail light and "black light bulb" are you using?




I was using a material called composimold which is a hydrocolloid. When the exposure through the side of the mold didn't work I tried exposing the acrylic directly though the top to see if the mold was the issue and the acrylic still didn't harden (although maybe it's possible that something in the mold was inhibiting the curing process). 

The nail lamp is a generic 36W four bulb unit from Amazon (called the salon edge UV) and the black light bulb is a Sunlite SL20 BLB 20watt CFL 

Thanks for your help!


----------



## MuZo2

put the uv nail polish in sun and check if it hardens. I think UV wavelength might be a problem.


----------



## jbr1971

n82558 said:


> So i've been working on a set of CIEMs and can't get the nail acrylic I"m using to harden at all. I've even tried just exposing it through the top of the mold (so the light is hitting the acrylic directly) to see if I was going crazy and it still didn't harden. This is what I'm using now: http://www.amazon.com/Seche-Ultra-V-Top-Coat-Ounce/dp/B0091IJ4C2
> 
> I've tried with both a nail light and a black light bulb with exposure times ranging from 3 minutes to an hour and its still just liquid after all that time. Is there a particular brand that anyone has had luck with?


 
  
 I tried using that exact same acrylic to make faceplates for my shells (approx 2mm thick) and I could not get it to harden correctly either. I use a 36W four bulb UV unit almost identical to yours (just sold under a different brand name) and it works great with Fotoplast.
  
 It appears there are issues with the consistency or formula of that acrylic that keeps it from hardening correctly at any thickness other than that used on fingernails.
  
 I would recommend buying a small sample of Fotoplast (or another product known by others here to work properly) and testing with your molds. I have a 100g/91ml bottle of Fotoplast and it has been enough to make 5 pairs of shells so far, with enough left for probably 3 or 4 pairs. I have a feeling your molds are fine and the fault is with the Seche acrylic.
  
 edit: I never thought of wavelength as muzo2 mentioned, but it may be easier to change the material you use than the lighting setup.
  
 Good luck.


----------



## pc27618349

jbr1971 said:


> I tried using that exact same acrylic to make faceplates for my shells (approx 2mm thick) and I could not get it to harden correctly either. I use a 36W four bulb UV unit almost identical to yours (just sold under a different brand name) and it works great with Fotoplast.
> 
> It appears there are issues with the consistency or formula of that acrylic that keeps it from hardening correctly at any thickness other than that used on fingernails.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yea I found that Fotoplast is actually cheaper by volume than the UV nail gel I was working with (Gelaze).


----------



## John Furno

omgflyingbanana said:


> I know the green (1500 ohm) dampers are popular on the mid/high port with no dampers on the CI. If you're feeling the need for some heavier bass I hear the orange (3300 ohm) dampers could be used on the mid/high port.




Thank you for your help with the dampers, do you also know what length Tubing I should use for the ports on the GK driver? I've heard conflicting ideas with some people saying that they should both be 10mm and some people saying that the CI should be about 20mm and the TWFK should be about 13. I just want to make sure I get the sound signature correct.

Also, which type of UV acrylic is best for shell build up, the fotoplast-S/IO, the fotoplast-gel or the fotoplast-laquer/3? 

Thank you for all your help so far


----------



## jbr1971

john furno said:


> Thank you for your help with the dampers, do you also know what length Tubing I should use for the ports on the GK driver? I've heard conflicting ideas with some people saying that they should both be 10mm and some people saying that the CI should be about 20mm and the TWFK should be about 13. I just want to make sure I get the sound signature correct.
> 
> Also, which type of UV acrylic is best for shell build up, the fotoplast-S/IO, the fotoplast-gel or the fotoplast-laquer/3?
> 
> Thank you for all your help so far


 
  
 I've been using the Fotoplast S-IO and it has worked well. It took a bit of trial and error to get used to working with it, but it does produce great results once you figure it out.


----------



## raptor18

Anyone can guess why shure chose to use two 2.2 microF caps in parallel instead of a single 4.7 microF in the external crossover for the E5?

Surely the precision cannot be that important ?

Shure has specified that the e5 is crossed over at 2.5 kHz on their website. Interesting that they specify such data.


----------



## piotrus-g

raptor18 said:


> Anyone can guess why shure chose to use two 2.2 microF caps in parallel instead of a single 4.7 microF in the external crossover for the E5?
> 
> Surely the precision cannot be that important ?
> 
> Shure has specified that the e5 is crossed over at 2.5 kHz on their website. Interesting that they specify such data.


 

 2x 2.2uF could be cheaper than one 4.7uF?


----------



## roughington

It could also have to do with tolerances too, one could be -4% and the other +3% or something and it would work out a lot nicer than a 4.7 -5%, because I doubt they are testing every cap and resistor they use at the scale they are producing at for most of their line, or they really want 4.4uF rather than 4.7uF


----------



## raptor18

Since the crossover is external, it can also be a "cool factor" with many electrical components 
  
 And by the way:
  
 http://shure.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/3256/~/crossover-frequency-of-e5-earphones
  
 Crossover at 2,5 khz, which i also calculated (if the caps are in parallel, which i think they are)
  
 But 2,5 khz??? Seriously???


----------



## Silverprout

raptor18 said:


> Anyone can guess why shure chose to use two 2.2 microF caps in parallel instead of a single 4.7 microF in the external crossover for the E5?
> 
> Surely the precision cannot be that important ?
> 
> Shure has specified that the e5 is crossed over at 2.5 kHz on their website. Interesting that they specify such data.


 
  
 Hello,
 Are you sure that they are in parallel ?
  
 It looks like serial polarized capacitors... 1.1µF


----------



## omgflyingbanana

I know everyone here is all about dropping hundreds of dollars on multiple BAs, but has anyone tried dynamic drivers from Aliexpress? Link to a general search: http://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?catId=0&initiative_id=SB_20160328135601&SearchText=speaker+headphone


----------



## omgflyingbanana

Also, if anyone needs acoustic tubing, I think teflon tubing will work quite well in a pinch. Here's an Aliexpress link, I think 1.75mm will work great:


----------



## omgflyingbanana

Sorry for the triple post, but I just want to share some info. I've had trouble looking up parts in Aliexpress, which is frustrating since Aliexpress contains a huge amount of easily available IEM parts.

Shells Someone mentioned they could only find shells that were $38. That's because he searched up "IEM shell". The trick here is to search *earphone shell* or variants such as earphone shells, headphone shell, etc.

Dynamic Drivers Too many times have I searched up "Earphone/IEM driver" only to find actual IEMs with things such as "dual _driver_" in the title. The trick here is to search up *speaker headphone*, in that exact order. Not "headphone speaker", "earphone speaker", etc.

Cables Again, I was frustrated because searching up "headphone cable" would result in aux cords and searching up "earphone cable" or "MMCX cable" would result in actual IEMs or wrong cables. The trick is to search up *shure cable*. I know, it's stupid, but all the sellers like putting a brand in the title. For the TF10 (2 pin connector) cables, I can't really find a reliable search term (Vibro Lab's $25 cable is the best anyway).

Tips The easiest of all, simply looking up *eartips *will get you plenty of results. _PLEASE NOTE THE SIZE OF THE TIPS_, most of the tips on Aliexpress have an inner diameter of around 4-5mm, so it will not work on thin nozzles like Shure's. Also, don't bother searching up "triple flange", just scroll down on the "eartips" search page.

Acoustic tubing If you search up any sort of tubing IN GENERAL, Aliexpress will give you heat-shrink tubing. The trick is to look up *teflon tubing*. While these are more rigid, they are extremely inexpensive and will work well. Make sure to note the proper diameter first.

Need more? A _SUPER USEFUL TIP_ is to add the word "diy" in your search term. Almost every single IEM part I've found had the word "diy" in the title, so if you find yourself with bad results try adding "diy" in your query".

Some thoughts Needless to say, it is completely possible to make a complete IEM using only Aliexpress. At these cheap price points, I'd say give it a go if you want to try something new.


----------



## raptor18

If i have a driver with an impedance of 10 ohms. What is my final impedance for the whole setup (left and right)? 20 ohms? What does the amplifier "see"? How do manufacturers specify impedance?


----------



## piotrus-g

raptor18 said:


> If i have a driver with an impedance of 10 ohms. What is my final impedance for the whole setup (left and right)? 20 ohms? What does the amplifier "see"? How do manufacturers specify impedance?


 
 depends on impedance vs freq curve
 Amplifier will see impedance of (driver1+driver2)/2 as they are driven in parallel so essentailly you can take impedance of one driver.


----------



## Furco

Glad to see the veterans keeping this forum alive and well. I haven't been reading for a while and just got caught up. Some classic questions keep popping up and some new ones are asked. I think that's awesome.

Cheers!


----------



## raptor18

Thank you Piotr and i fully agree Furco, you learn a lot from the masters.
 I hope to become an expert myself in the future. I'm also doing this to learn more about electronics, so i want to learn everything about how the drivers work electrically, so i need to learn how amps work too.
  
 Which is the best way to extend high frequencies, create a horn like 1.5 mm->2 mm->2.5 mm ID or stay all the way at 2.5 mm?


----------



## RenaGuil94

Anyone know where to get those metallic sound resonators (titanium sound tube etc?)


----------



## ForceMajeure

raptor18 said:


> Thank you Piotr and i fully agree Furco, you learn a lot from the masters.
> I hope to become an expert myself in the future. I'm also doing this to learn more about electronics, so i want to learn everything about how the drivers work electrically, so i need to learn how amps work too.
> 
> *Which is the best way to extend high frequencies, create a horn like 1.5 mm->2 mm->2.5 mm ID or stay all the way at 2.5 mm?*


 
 Using a horn should extend the higher register and also smooth out some peaks along the way. The problem is that everyone's ear canals is different and for some it might actually be to aggressive or accentuates peaks on the spectrum for a certain person. You wouldn't believe how much the ear canal shape affect mids and trebles perception (it is common to not be symmetrical for one person then the brain kinda helps out rectifying the asymmetry).
  
 The best way to know if it suits you is to test it yourself, DIY's advantage 
  
 One way of making a horn shape canal is to make it within the shells canal like Vision ears/Rhines/Jomoaudio...


----------



## raptor18

forcemajeure said:


> Using a horn should extend the higher register and also smooth out some peaks along the way. The problem is that everyone's ear canals is different and for some it might actually be to aggressive or accentuates peaks on the spectrum for a certain person. You wouldn't believe how much the ear canal shape affect mids and trebles perception (it is common to not be symmetrical for one person then the brain kinda helps out rectifying the asymmetry).
> 
> The best way to know if it suits you is to test it yourself, DIY's advantage
> 
> *One way of making a horn shape canal is to make it within the shells canal like Vision ears/Rhines/Jomoaudio...*


 
  
 I think i understand what you mean.
 Do you mean to drill the shell for the sound tubes with a cone drill? And then just place the sound tube at the entrance of the drilled hole? How would you fix the sound tube to the shell, is friction enough?


----------



## MuZo2

forcemajeure said:


> One way of making a horn shape canal is to make it within the shells canal like Vision ears/Rhines/Jomoaudio...


 
  
 Its not a horn.


----------



## tranhieu

muzo2 said:


> Its not a horn.


 
 It's a stepped horn.


----------



## MuZo2

Do we have pictures?


----------



## piotrus-g

tranhieu said:


> It's a stepped horn.


 
 seconded


----------



## MuZo2

on closer look it definitely is


----------



## ForceMajeure

Those blue ones  RHINES CUSTOM MONITORS STAGE 7 (picture from inearspace.com) are a beauty...


----------



## raptor18

So basically as i understand it, a stepped horn is preferred to a maintained and larger sound tube.
 Stepped horn such as 1.5 mm->2 mm->2.5 mm ID compared to a maintained 2.5 mm ID.
  
 The smaller sound tube attenuates a little bit of the lower highs which can be a little harsh which still needs to damped with dampers and the horn is to extend (raise) the highest highs which the BA's have difficulties to reach.


----------



## ForceMajeure

Yes, the main idea is to extand the higher frequency usually from 9khz and above.It should also make the ~5khz to 8khz  smoother but it remain to be seen...
 This way of extending high freqs dosen't always sound good to some people as the ear canal shape plays a major role in focusing highs frequencies.
 As you said you still need to use a damper to attenuate peaks to your liking.
  
 Here is another picture 

  
 To achieve a shaped canal like this you could drill it slowly using certain diamond burrs. Or make a big hole and fill it slightly with some fotoplast and UV it to achieve a certain shape.
 Or even use the ear impression, shape the canal concavely with a Dremel then use it for cast.
 The tube should be attached in some way...


----------



## raptor18

Great, and i thought all along that #13 sound tubes (2.0x3.0 ID) were the most common and couldn't figure out how to fit 2x3.0mm OD at the tip. I've read a little everywhere that they are most common, but it seems that is for hear aids with single drivers.
  
 Here is a good link about Acoustic Circuits: Pipes and Resonators
 http://mysite.du.edu/~jcalvert/waves/acoucirc.htm#Lump
  
 I'm going to read it some day


----------



## mattmatt

hi, anyone tried using self/cold cure acrylic? Still playing around with concentrations but I keep on getting air bubbles. anyone managed to create shells?


----------



## raptor18

@mattmatt you need a pressure pot to get rid of bubbles.


----------



## raptor18

Does anyone know what kind of grinder bit i need for the dremel to grind silicone ear impressions? My bits just tears the silicone apart instead of grinding it.


----------



## mattmatt

@raptor18, I doubt if I can use a pressure pot with it. I'll use rotation casting to make hollow shells so I think it will not work out. Though, I managed to cast one without bubbles. The trick is to heat it up with blower or heat gun after mixing. 
  
 I think I did not use 1 monomer: 2 powder. I think it is too thick, wouldn't it? wouldn't it be doughy if 1:2 is used? Also, I have bumps with the cast. Is it due to the mixing or only pressure pot can solve it?


----------



## MuZo2

raptor18 said:


> Does anyone know what kind of grinder bit i need for the dremel to grind silicone ear impressions? My bits just tears the silicone apart instead of grinding it.


 

 Did you try diamond burs?


----------



## Squirg

I've been using Clear Balistics for a few weeks and I only achieved a bubble-free negative when I put the molds in the oven at 265F for about 2 hrs.  The bubbles slowly rise and you get a crystal clear negative.  However, this means you can't use wax.  Good stuff though...


----------



## FARfromHOME

muzo2 said:


> Did you try diamond burs?


 
 Same here, diamond.
 Tearing usually happens when you don't have enough speed.


----------



## Mython

I realise this might sound like a bizarre thing to say, but have you tried using a lubricant whilst grinding? It might reduce tearing, but try it on a scrap piece of silicone first.
  
 Peter (piotrus_g) will certainly know the answer.


----------



## piotrus-g

you rang?
  
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UzpYGlxPE4


----------



## Mython

piotrus-g said:


> you rang?
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UzpYGlxPE4


 
  
 Does it need to be bulletproof?


----------



## jbr1971

squirg said:


> I've been using Clear Balistics for a few weeks and I only achieved a bubble-free negative when I put the molds in the oven at 265F for about 2 hrs.  The bubbles slowly rise and you get a crystal clear negative.  However, this means you can't use wax.  Good stuff though...


 
  
 I have been using Clear Ballistics gel as well, but have had issues with bubbles forming where the gel contacts the impression. I have been melting the gel in the microwave and pouring it into a glass where the impression is suspended. It cools and hardens pretty quickly afterwards.
  
 I will try pouring the gel in, but putting the glass in the oven right away to see if that helps with clearing the bubbles out.
  
 Have you had any issues with the impressions melting while in sustained heat for that long?
  
 Thanks for the tip.


----------



## Squirg

jbr1971 said:


> I have been using Clear Ballistics gel as well, but have had issues with bubbles forming where the gel contacts the impression. I have been melting the gel in the microwave and pouring it into a glass where the impression is suspended. It cools and hardens pretty quickly afterwards.
> 
> I will try pouring the gel in, but putting the glass in the oven right away to see if that helps with clearing the bubbles out.
> 
> ...


 

 I was worried about the impressions melting as well, but they held up fine.  I used a cupcake pan (make sure the cupcakes are out first).  Most impressions are silicone and can handle much hotter temps.  I haven't tried this yet, but people have had awesome results by making a positive out of acrylic and using it for making your negatives.


----------



## raptor18

mattmatt said:


> @raptor18, I doubt if I can use a pressure pot with it. I'll use rotation casting to make hollow shells so I think it will not work out. Though, I managed to cast one without bubbles. The trick is to heat it up with blower or heat gun after mixing.
> 
> I think I did not use 1 monomer: 2 powder. I think it is too thick, wouldn't it? wouldn't it be doughy if 1:2 is used? Also, I have bumps with the cast. Is it due to the mixing or only pressure pot can solve it?


 
  
 I honestly have not used cold cure acrylic so i have no clue.


----------



## raptor18

farfromhome said:


> Same here, diamond.
> Tearing usually happens when you don't have enough speed.


 
  
 Bloody lovely, thanks! Glad i asked because i would never have thought about that. I will try today!!


----------



## Danthrax

Hello, I have a pair of original JH13 pros and they have a driver imbalance. I was wondering what drivers I could use as a replacement with the existing crossover setup. Or if there is a superior setup I could try. Right now I think I just need to replace the "mid" driver in each ear but I'm not 100% sure it looks like a knowles DTEC is in there currently and the bass driver in there is a Sonion but I'm not sure what would be comparable or work as a drop in, right now the crossover seems to run both the mid and the bass driver at the same time, then it just crosses over to the highs. Both mid and bass drivers play at the same time but the bass driver has damping in it. I'm in the US if that makes a difference on parts that I can get.


----------



## Mython

Not really CIEM-specific, but would anyone care to offer any insight in this new thread?:
  
www.head-fi.org/t/804176/thiele-small-parameters-for-headphone-drivers


----------



## Squirg

I've been working on shells for a while now and I am getting some great results.  I have an assortment of drivers, i.e. Ci, DTEC, ED, and assortments of filters.  However, I am a complete moron at tuning and since I don't have a testing rig, I just wire it all up and jam it in my ear hole.  Here is my prob: there are so many options when shopping on Mouser for resistors and capacitors.  Can one of you fine folks give me some direction on which caps and resistors to order from Mouser -- some "usual suspects" in terms of variables? 
  
 My ears thank you...
 My wife and bank account?...
 Not so much!


----------



## crash88

I use ballistic in a mini crock pot for an 1-2 hrs on high and poor in Pyrex cooking cup. Basically anything that can handle the temps and the size of the mold I want. The best way is to get a long wood screw and find a way to suspend in into the Pyrex cup and poor quickly while hot. A quick poor keeps the bubbles out.

The next trick is removal. With ballistic its easy since it can handle the peel from the negative. Slow pulls help get the impression out. Good thing with ballistic is it's clear and you can reuse it if you mess up with a tear.


----------



## ForceMajeure

mython said:


> Not really CIEM-specific, but would anyone care to offer any insight in this new thread?:
> 
> www.head-fi.org/t/804176/thiele-small-parameters-for-headphone-drivers


 
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/804176/thiele-small-parameters-for-headphone-drivers#post_12484312


----------



## Clarence1

I got some Sonion 26-e25 drivers which have a 2mm wide port. I bought some 1.6mm pipe and fits nice and tight just with the pressure. However the sound filter is 2mm wide too and sonion recommend to put it about 1/3 deep in the lenght of the pipe. Do you guys have any advice about how to push it through the pipe without breaking it?
  
 My other options would be to use 2mm pipe, which could work fine but I guess I'd have to see if it changes the sound signature and I'll have to glue it to the driver. I could also put the 2mm filter just at the end of the pipe rather than pushed at third way through.
 And should I put a dirt filter at the end of my pipe in addition? If so, which material would do the trick?
  
 I also see that there was discussion about using pipe as a horn form 1.5mm to 2.5 in the precedent page. So would it be better to put a lenght of 1.6mm pipe and then a lenght of 2mm? And does PVC tubing does the trick or teflon really has some advantages?
  
 Thank you if you have any advice.


----------



## Ratio

Hey guys! I'm getting into the IEM building and was thinking about a possibility of hybrid build. The question is what are good dynamic drivers to use and are they sold for example on Digikey, I can't find much info if any on dynamic drivers.


----------



## MuZo2

ratio said:


> Hey guys! I'm getting into the IEM building and was thinking about a possibility of hybrid build. The question is what are good dynamic drivers to use and are they sold for example on Digikey, I can't find much info if any on dynamic drivers.


 

 You can find some on taobao.


----------



## raptor18

clarence1 said:


> I got some Sonion 26-e25 drivers which have a 2mm wide port. I bought some 1.6mm pipe and fits nice and tight just with the pressure. However the sound filter is 2mm wide too and sonion recommend to put it about 1/3 deep in the lenght of the pipe. Do you guys have any advice about how to push it through the pipe without breaking it?
> 
> My other options would be to use 2mm pipe, which could work fine but I guess I'd have to see if it changes the sound signature and I'll have to glue it to the driver. I could also put the 2mm filter just at the end of the pipe rather than pushed at third way through.
> And should I put a dirt filter at the end of my pipe in addition? If so, which material would do the trick?
> ...


 
  
 I'm having the same issue. Even if i manage to push the damper in a bit, it is not aligned in the tube.
 Any tips? I really want to try a horn. 1,5 mm -> 2 mm ID.
  
 I know i could cut the 1,5 mm ID tube and insert a 2 mm ID tube with the damper in between but i have seen other manufacturers pushing in dampers in 1,5 mm ID tubes.


----------



## MuZo2

Do you have tool for dampers? there is special tool on one side you can push it while on other side there is screw with which you can pull it.


----------



## raptor18

That was an expensive tool.
  
 http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/knowles/BF-1778-000/423-1217-ND/4867480
  
 Then we have Sonion damper tool.
  
 http://www.sonion.com/Products/Micro%20Mechanicals/~/media/Files/Products/Data%20Sheets/Electromechanicals/SSD/SSD_DS_rev013.ashx
  
 This is way cheaper.
  
 Do you have any of these? Is it confirmed that they can push dampers in 1,5 mm ID sound tubes? I'm asking because sonion and knowles state their dampers are for 2 mm ID sound tubes.
  
 Because if you look at the drawing:
  
 http://www.knowles.com/eng/content/download/3162/37787/version/2/file/BF-1778.pdf
  
 The tips is 2,6 mm, a lot more than 1,5 mm.


----------



## MuZo2

I bought the tool from taobao for 5$


----------



## raptor18

Super
  
 I'll try to get one.


----------



## raptor18

tranhieu said:


> Opps I forgot Peter is still lurking around here lol
> 
> Anyway, the problem with making (long) horns for tweeters is that silicone tube has to be used no matter what, and I'm not a fan of it. *It's common knowledge that high frequencies are affected by transmission path the most. I don't have the exact figure but I'm pretty sure absorbing coefficient of silicone isn't that ideal compared to, say titanium (I'm a big fan of that material btw)*. Plus it's always recommended to have a straight transmission path for tweeters, which is virtually impossible with CIEM shells. To me, when using long horns with CIEMs you are actualy amplifying degenerated high frequencies due to the use of long silicone tube (no offence here Peter, I like your work, it's just me being not comfortable with silicone, that's all).
> 
> ...


 
  
@tranhieu
  
 I know this is an old post, but i have a very relevant question.
  
 Since high frequencies are affected by transmission path, isn't it better to use as large diameter tube as possible to lower the effect of the tube attenuating high frequencies than to use a smaller ID tube, which will attenuate high freqs a bit, so a stepped horn can be created? 
  
 To me, horns are not wise, just use maximum possible ID tube all the way if physical space permitts.. But then again, even Sonion keep using them in their design guidelines. So at the end of the day, i don't understand


----------



## tranhieu

raptor18 said:


> @tranhieu
> 
> I know this is an old post, but i have a very relevant question.
> 
> ...


 
 You are partially correct. However, if you look into it carefully having a 'maximum possible ID' is also another kind of stepped horn with the spout of the driver being the 1st step.
  
 Back to why horns are being used here, there's a paper on Etymotic's page (or you can google it for any relevant audiology book) talking about boosting specific (high) frequencies using horns. That's kind of similar to recovering the part of the frequency range that has been lost due to being absorbed by the tubing material.


----------



## roughington

I see a lot of drivers on taobao that go for a decent amount less than they would on mouser or digikey I was wondering if anyone could vouche for them?


----------



## Hutnicks

roughington said:


> I see a lot of drivers on taobao that go for a decent amount less than they would on mouser or digikey I was wondering if anyone could vouche for them?


 

 There are altenatives. Sony's MH1 and HPM 62 and 64's can be had dirt cheap. All have very good drivers to be salvaged.


----------



## Xymordos

You can even get the JVC FX650&850 drivers on taobao. I've also seen the CKR9/10 driver and the Sony BA drivers being sold. .


----------



## s1190

There's even IE800 driver on taobao, but I do doubt it's real.


----------



## s1190

tranhieu said:


> You are partially correct. However, if you look into it carefully having a 'maximum possible ID' is also another kind of stepped horn with the spout of the driver being the 1st step.
> 
> Back to why horns are being used here, there's a paper on Etymotic's page (or you can google it for any relevant audiology book) talking about boosting specific (high) frequencies using horns. That's kind of similar to recovering the part of the frequency range that has been lost due to being absorbed by the tubing material.




The same apply to using different material of tubing (etc stainless steel or titanium). Read this somewhere on knowles application note. Metal tube enhance HF around 2db. I have tried metal tube without much success. 

Main problems: 
1) bending the metal to fit inside the shell ( K&S metal bendable tube may work which I haven't try). 
2) how to fit an ascoustic filter into the metal tube ? 

I also read that for JH audio, they use smaller ID(1.2mm if I recall correctly) for exiting tube. Common tube size (3mm x 2mm) work well for 1 or 2 bore. For triple bore and above, the use of smaller ID is necessary. Tubing that is small enough to bend and doesn't collapse. Otherwise using one big horn exit, this approach work well with people with smaller canal.


----------



## Clarence1

raptor18 said:


> @tranhieu
> 
> I know this is an old post, but i have a very relevant question.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I can't help you, but if we look at Sonion's design guidelines, page 9, graphic on the right, we can see that the 1.6mm tubing (purple line) allows higher frequencies than the 2mm tube once it's past over 10khz, but a "drop" at around 10khz. 
 http://www.sonion.com/~/media/Files/Academy/Academy_ProAudio__DocCode_304_V_001_Web.ashx
  
 Otherwise, I'll try to go with 2mm diameter to avoid problems with the damper insertion I think, or I will try a stepped horn shape, as some here suggest.


----------



## raptor18

I honestly still don't understand, so i have a problem and will need to read more about this 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 I understand we are boosting high freqs with a horn, but we are at the same time killing the high freqs with a smaller ID tube so we can create that horn.
  
@Clarence1
  
 They only use the IEC711 coupler in those graphs, so we cannot trust anything above 8 khz.
 Just look at the more recent knowles drivers tech specs, they provide a graph from both iec711 and 0,4cc coupler which is more trustworthy for higher frequencies. Very well done by Knowles.
  
 Edit: I found it, will read it.
 http://www.etymotic.com/media/publications/erl-0048-2003.pdf
  
 Very good site with excellent material for us!
  
 http://www.etymotic.com/publications


----------



## jbr1971

squirg said:


> I've been using Clear Balistics for a few weeks and I only achieved a bubble-free negative when I put the molds in the oven at 265F for about 2 hrs.  The bubbles slowly rise and you get a crystal clear negative.  However, this means you can't use wax.  Good stuff though...


 
  
 Thanks again for the tip on putting the mould in the oven. It took a few tries to get the result I wanted (once I figured out how to compensate for the gel contracting during cooling), but it worked great. A perfect cast with very few bubbles.
  
 I took a picture comparing the mould I used for my first set of IEMs alongside the new one. The air bubbles in the first one made for a lot of extra time and work fixing the shells. I cannot wait to see what the new shells will look like...
  
 Edit: The shells came out perfect. Almost no bubbles, clear, and fit perfectly first try. Build time has significantly dropped from the first set already. Less than 2 days to re-mould and cast good shells, as opposed to 3 to 4 weeks the first time.


----------



## Squirg

jbr1971 said:


> Thanks again for the tip on putting the mould in the oven. It took a few tries to get the result I wanted (once I figured out how to compensate for the gel contracting during cooling), but it worked great. A perfect cast with very few bubbles.
> 
> I took a picture comparing the mould I used for my first set of IEMs alongside the new one. The air bubbles in the first one made for a lot of extra time and work fixing the shells. I cannot wait to see what the new shells will look like...
> 
> Edit: The shells came out perfect. Almost no bubbles, clear, and fit perfectly first try. Build time has significantly dropped from the first set already. Less than 2 days to re-mould and cast good shells, as opposed to 3 to 4 weeks the first time.


 

 Awesome!!!  So glad it worked out for you!  What did you use for a investment mold?


----------



## Squirg

Does anyone out there have the Knowles tech sheet for the CI-30120?  I can't find it anywhere.  I got a pair for free and want to try and pair them up with ED or DTEC.  Thoughts?


----------



## jbr1971

squirg said:


> Awesome!!!  So glad it worked out for you!  What did you use for a investment mold?


 
  
 I suspended the impressions in a small glass, a little bigger than a shot glass.


----------



## alegmlima

Im making a IEM, but here the BAs are very expensive and hard to find. Im thinking in buying a IE800 speaker (Aliexpress) and put in the shell. What do you think? IE800 or Vsonic VSD5 speakers? Can i put 2 dynamic speakers as a dual driver? Tks!


----------



## Clarence1

I think that paying around 80-100$ for good drivers from a know brand isn't excessive since you will probably spend many hours and a lot of search and effort to get your shells done right. So, if you spend 20-40 hours on your project and they sound so-so, you may regret. But maybe that there are some good alternatives for cheap I don't know.


----------



## MuZo2

alegmlima said:


> Im making a IEM, but here the BAs are very expensive and hard to find. Im thinking in buying a IE800 speaker (Aliexpress) and put in the shell. What do you think? IE800 or Vsonic VSD5 speakers? Can i put 2 dynamic speakers as a dual driver? Tks!


 

 Dynamic drivers are very hard to get right, you have to play with front and back cavity , you cant just throw any driver and get it right in one try.


----------



## alegmlima

Thanks for the advice!


----------



## Mython

muzo2 said:


> Dynamic drivers are very hard to get right, you have to play with front and back cavity , you cant just throw any driver and get it right in one try.


 
  
 Hmmm.... yes....._try telling that to FutureSonics_ - my $750 MG6 Pro was *attrociously*-bad:
  


mython said:


> > Originally Posted by *shotgunshane* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> >
> >
> > I noticed that I was also experiencing a lot of harshness and an echo effect that made them very fatiguing to listen too.
> ...


----------



## Xymordos

This is quite interesting. Although I don't own a MG6, the Chinese IEM community seems to love this one with great passion.


----------



## Mython

xymordos said:


> This is quite interesting. Although I don't own a MG6, the Chinese IEM community seems to love this one with great passion.


 
  
  
 It's the worst audio purchase I've ever made.
  
 It's the most hassle I've ever had dealing with an audio product/company.
  
 Never have I been so substantially misled by any head-fier (see link, below).
  
 I can see its robustness has some merit for stage-use, but the MG6 Pro has the most uneven and unnatural frequency response of any audio product I've ever owned, and I just cannot understand why any _audiophile_ would rave about it (in fact, I am now _*suspicious of it*_). The fundamental lack of consistency in the CIEM shell volume surely doesn't help this, but I was told (_after_ purchase) by the designer himself that the DD is deliberately tuned with a tapered treble response, as a result of feedback from performers requesting less-fatigue for long duration usage on stage, at high SPLs.
  
  
  
  
  
 On a more uplifting note, I was intrigued to read about the unusual driver configuration in the following IEM:
  
www.head-fi.org/products/obravo-erib-2a/reviews/15724
  
  
 .


----------



## Xymordos

Haha, well the preferences over there seems very different from here. Many of them don't like BA IEMs, nor the BA sounding IE800. So they really like the MG6 as it provides a comfortable sound that is not fatiguing.


----------



## piotrus-g

mython said:


> On a more uplifting note, I was intrigued to read about the unusual driver configuration in the following IEM:
> 
> www.head-fi.org/products/obravo-erib-2a/reviews/15724
> 
> ...


 
 Oh I heard those at CanJam. You can shot me an email if you want my _honest _opinion


----------



## Mython

I like DD
  
 I also like BA
  
  
 MG6 Pro isn't bad because it's DD.
  

 I agree with what MuZo2 said:
  


muzo2 said:


> Dynamic drivers are very hard to get right, you have to play with front and back cavity , you cant just throw any driver and get it right in one try.


----------



## Xymordos

I'm not saying they're a good DD since I've never heard it before. I'm just saying they're one of the #1 recommended CIEMs for ppl who want a comfortable sound in the Chinese forums, which I find weird. For me I really like the clarity of the BAs.
  
 Side note: I remember I heard O'Bravo's headphones at the HK AV show once. Not sure which model. Didn't like it.


----------



## Xymordos

Just made a new 3 driver universal.
  
  
 And a new 7 driver one!


----------



## Xymordos

Oh and the graphs:
  
 3 driver:

  
  
 7 driver...couldn't get rid of the treble peaks. I think I might stick a filter in.


----------



## roughington

I want that universal shell please give to meh


----------



## Xymordos

I got these silicon molds off taobao which you can reuse for curing the universals. Though I tried several shops before finally deciding on one as the fits for each seller are different...


----------



## omgflyingbanana

What would be the cheapest way to make CIEM shells in terms of materials?


----------



## ForceMajeure

Great job @Xymordos! these look great!
  
 What drivers did you use for them?
 How many bores do you have on the 7 drivers one?
 What diameter tube did you use?
 What is the purplish color on  the 3 drivers one?
 How do they sound? Do you like them?


----------



## Xymordos

For the 3 driver I used 2xED29689 and a CI26890 (Mouser ran out of 22955 when I bought the drivers). The purplish things are small purple crystals i poured into the shell and then filled it up with acrylic. In fact both are filled in the center. This one used a 2.5mm diameter stainless steel tube with a 1mm diameter silicon tube for the bass driver. Sound is very laid back, but clear. Sound stage is large since I based it off the UERM. 
  
 7 Drivers I used a CI26890, HODTEC31268, GR31587 and SWFK31736. The two high drivers' tubes merge into a 2.5mm diameter stainless steel tube. The DTEC mids driver uses a regular 2mm pvc tube, and the bass driver uses a 50mm long by 0.5mm diameter silicon tube. This one ended up really really clear. Vocals were intimate and clear. Highs were very sparkly, which I think needs to be tamed with a filter as this one is filterless. The bass hits very deep, but doesn't hit very hard (lack of mid bass?). Despite the curve looking like it has a lot of bass, you don't really feel it unless on quiet tracks, where you can really feel the sub bass. Not really sure why this happens...
  
 Overall, I do like the two I made, but I have already came up with plans to improve the implementations. 
  
 It's funny how I used similar drivers for my 7 driver v1, and the graphs can look so so so different.


----------



## ForceMajeure

xymordos said:


> For the 3 driver I used 2xED29689 and a CI26890 (Mouser ran out of 22955 when I bought the drivers). The purplish things are small purple crystals i poured into the shell and then filled it up with acrylic. In fact both are filled in the center. This one used a 2.5mm diameter stainless steel tube with a 1mm diameter silicon tube for the bass driver. Sound is very laid back, but clear. Sound stage is large since I based it off the UERM.
> 
> 7 Drivers I used a CI26890, HODTEC31268, GR31587 and SWFK31736. The two high drivers' tubes merge into a 2.5mm diameter stainless steel tube. The DTEC mids driver uses a regular 2mm pvc tube, and the bass driver uses a 50mm long by 0.5mm diameter silicon tube. This one ended up really really clear. Vocals were intimate and clear. Highs were very sparkly, which I think needs to be tamed with a filter as this one is filterless. The bass hits very deep, but doesn't hit very hard (lack of mid bass?). Despite the curve looking like it has a lot of bass, you don't really feel it unless on quiet tracks, where you can really feel the sub bass. Not really sure why this happens...
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 Awesome info.
  
 I had a feeling looking at the graph of the 3 drivers one that it was based on the UERM. Have you try using a sonion 2389 half coiled instead of the knowles ED drivers?
 I have both ED29689 and Sonion 2389 for the mid high, I am curious.
  
 For the 7 drivers lacking bass punch maybe the bass tube is too long and thin not allowing enough pressured air to reach your eardrum...
  
 What's the difference between  the CI26890 and the CI22955? They look the same to me on the knowles sheets.


----------



## Danthrax

Hello I was wondering if the HODVTEC-30168 + TWFK-30017 was still considered a good combination? And if so does anyone have recommendations for where to start with the crossover design? As in some ballpark estimates for resistors/caps that would make sense? I was also looking at hodvtec-31618+dwfk-31785+swfk-31736 and I was wondering if that is a much better combination or would the increased complexity of the crossover make tuning result in it being difficult to achieve a good result?


----------



## Xymordos

I haven't went to get the 2389. I should probably get it next time but I have to get it separately from different sellers which is a hassle for me. I'll try it next time when I some more spare time. Though aren't the two drivers nearly identical?
  
 I think maybe the HODTEC I used had too high impedance which made the bass weak...hmm..
  
 I used the 26890 as a substitute as I compared them on the specs sheet and they looked identical. I never tested them side by side so I didn't know if there were any actual differences. The 26980 doesn't have a center tap.


----------



## AndroidVageta

Just looking through this thread I just have a simple question:
  
 How much would it cost to make something like, say, the JH13Pro FP? As far as parts and materials?


----------



## MuZo2

More than JH13pro FP and no guarantee it sound like one.


----------



## Danthrax

muzo2 said:


> More than JH13pro FP and no guarantee it sound like one.


 
 It wouldn't cost more to immitate it and get close, but for the most part it's probably better to just buy one outright.


----------



## Mython

danthrax said:


> muzo2 said:
> 
> 
> > More than JH13pro FP and no guarantee it sound like one.
> ...


 
  
  
  
_Technically,_ I agree, but I will ask you this:
  
 Would you give your custom to a company that (_as far as I can tell_) doesn't appear to give a hoot about its customers _or_ its competitors?
  
  
 Food for thought...


----------



## Danthrax

mython said:


> _Technically,_ I agree, but I will ask you this:
> 
> Would you give your custom to a company that (_as far as I can tell_) doesn't appear to give a hoot about its customers _or_ its competitors?
> 
> ...


 
 I would probably buy a UERR to be honest.


----------



## AndroidVageta

Really? So I know the mold itself can be pretty cheap as can the connectors and cable so is it the drivers that are the most expensive part? I didn't think armature drivers were THAT expensive. 
  
 How much would it cost to make something comparable?


----------



## Danthrax

androidvageta said:


> Really? So I know the mold itself can be pretty cheap as can the connectors and cable so is it the drivers that are the most expensive part? I didn't think armature drivers were THAT expensive.
> 
> How much would it cost to make something comparable?


 
 You also need a way to measure it, and then you have to figure out how to make a crossover network, and figure out tubing length and acoustic filter length. It might be cheaper to buy the parts but it's a lot more work.


----------



## Tulku1967

It would be the following problems:
 I bought a headset type JH Audio Angie. The headset is equipped Sonion balanced armature parts. Unfortunately, mid and low armatures were cut off and destroyed. The high armatures works good. 
 The headset is not under warranty anymore.

 The low armature housing that are written on it: 38DJP007Mi / 8a 1448
 Among the products found a similar 38 AM007M/8a. As a 19 ohm impedance and sensitivity is the same as the values shown in Angie headset. (117 DB 1mW). Please fill out the right decision when it is selected.

The bigger problem is the mid armature. These consist of the following inscription: JH Lmid 1514.
 I think this made the Sonion specifically for the JH Audio. Please specify which armature is sound, specifications close to the armature.

 Where can I buy these e products?

 Thanks in advance for your answers!

 Sorry for my english!


----------



## MuZo2

Sonion dont sell the products low quantities. You have to buy in bulk. Also you cant be sure all JH BA are from Sonion, they can be from Knowles too. I guess they are custom made for JH.


----------



## Tulku1967

Taobao found low sonion armature.
 However, it can not be transported abroad on Taobao unfortunately ....


----------



## Tulku1967

Did Knowles proposed replacement?
 The low armature has two deep holes (open?) .... Although I think there is a purpose to my knowledge armatures are closed.
 I think low  and med double housings Knowles, which substituted for the bad ones.
 For example, it would be good in the mid?
 I see a very high impedance ...


----------



## Flukes

The pictures show sonion 3800 for lows, 2800 for mids, and 2 knowles swfk stuck together for a quad driver.
 The knowles "equivalent" would be hodvtec for lows, and well the 2800 is 2 2600 stuck together so the knowles rab series would be the closest.
 Getting 2 knowles rab might work. It's difficult to say b/c there really isn't an equivalent driver, but the rab fits the dimensions closely.
 Also, the response is somewhat similar.
 Edit: Also the knowles ej is 2 ed's stuck together


----------



## Tulku1967

I think it will be a low DTEC 30265....




    
 So, EJ two ED,  I read on Aliexpress...but the very high impedance of 200 ohms or above ... does not matter in this case? If not, then this will be the solution in the middle.

 The RAB is high impedance and low sensitivity. You see that it behaves like Sonion 2800? Unfortunately I can not connect them, so it would be better if you could replace the EJ 23018 ...

 Possibly one ED 29 689  on mid? Although only one piece.

 Thank you for your answers!


----------



## Danthrax

Personally I'd buy a HODVTEC for the low driver, it's more of a replacement for the sonion 3800 series than a dtec would be, and I believe JH uses the sonion 3800 series for the lows.


----------



## Tulku1967

Thank you, I misunderstood because of the Knowles website is not listed HODVTEC.
I suppose it is.
 The issue of the mid armature complicated as I change the double-mid (Sonia 2800)?
 The EJ double inadequate because of the values (impedance, sensitivity, frequency response)?

 Is there any other way to Knowles palette which can trigger?


----------



## MuZo2

What are you trying to achieve with Angie? You want to keep same crossover and change drivers? I think that will be really difficult.


----------



## Tulku1967

Low armature there is no crossover, because it gets directly from bass output to the signal. The tuning can be done with a special SMD (0-100 ohm). There will be the perfect HODVTEC.

 In the middle is connected to an SMD resistor and capacitor, the capacitor data 36V and 1.5 nF,, I'm going to the resistance value measured.If we need to change this is to find an alternative to med, I can certainly replace anything else.

 The high crossower and armature do not want to touch it.

 The question therefore varies in this case, what kind of mid (with adapted capacitor and resistor band) replaced the dead armature?


----------



## Xymordos

Wait...thought they had a 4th order crossover?


----------



## ForceMajeure

Tulku1967, If I understand correctly on both pieces left and right, the bass and mid drivers dont work?
 If you have working drivers (bass/mids) you can measure their impedance using a software called Limp that comes with ARTA using a small electronic circuit called a "jig".
 The jig is not difficult to build just a small resistor and cables for line in, line out.
 
  
  
 By doing this you will get a graph of the impedances of the driver along their frequencies, something like this:

  
 With ARTA, if you have a microphone and a pvc tube you can measure the frequency response of the driver. It can be accurate up to 3khz
  
 with these graphs you can compare roughly...
  
 Though I doubt it will be easy to find an exact Knowles replacement alternative, maybe it will be easier to find something close from Sonion.


----------



## Tulku1967

One half of the double mid does not work right (detached small panel....see on my link) and the other good. Of course, I need to replace both of them, I know I will not find anything exactly, maximum, if send me one the JH Audio, but there is little chance.
 The two low armature I went wrong, because the headset spilled with resin and teh low Sonion armature at each hole received a resin (I thought of all the armatures are closed) and therefore the medium bass disappeared (I think just flowed into the bottom part into the resin, the top area is not).

 The main problem is that I do not understand these measurements, I thought it was a good approximate solution exists. But it seems to me it's more complicated than I thought.

 Xymordos: I'm sorry I do not understand the question...
 High armature to go three resistors and capacitors and one coil.


----------



## Squirg

Hey guys.  I need some driver/x-over suggestions...  I have these drivers:  CI-22955, CI-30120, DTEC-31116, and ED-26989.  I am a drummer and I'm looking for a bass-heavy, v-shaped sound sig.  Does anyone have any info on the 30120 driver?  
  
Thanks


----------



## Clarence1

I started to practice soldering and it's harder than I thought...
  
 Any tips on soldering drivers? What kind of wire do you use? Diameter, core-flux, etc.


----------



## ForceMajeure

clarence1 said:


> I started to practice soldering and it's harder than I thought...
> 
> Any tips on soldering drivers? What kind of wire do you use? Diameter, core-flux, etc.


 
 IMHO soldering helping hands are very welcomed, on one hand place the driver, on the other you can catch the wire and try to approach the two hands so the wire touch the pad on the BA you want to solder.
  
 Use tweezers to grab the wire or slightly move it, tweezers are very welcomed as well.
  
 Use a good solder iron with a pointy tip. The key is to apply enough heat but not for too long thus the need of a good solder iron tip (not too small and not to big).
 Clean the tip everytime you solder with a soldering wire sponge and reapply a bit of tin wire. I mean not only after you finish the all solder operation but everytime you solder something or if it seats plugged too long. Keeping the tip clean is essential to make a successful solder job as it will transfer heat better and faster without impurities making a big mess.
  
 Tin the pads on the wire you ant to solder before attaching it to the BA, you can also tin the pads on the BA.
 I use a tin wire of 0.6mm diameter. 
  
 Hope this helps you, those are my 2 cents.
  
 And yes it is a tricky job I struggled with it too at first but got better and more accurate with time.


----------



## Clarence1

Thanks for the tips. I think I was not too far from that (using tweezers, cleaning the tip, my tin wire is .8mm though) but I can hardly pre tin my wires for now, so I think I'll just practice more and try to ask advices in real life 
 Otherwise, is .5mm copper wire (naked) ok to do the connection? I'm soldering from the solder pads (on a sonion 26-e25) to a MMCX plug.
  
 I'd like to make a small series eventually, so I will probably make an aluminium heat sink to hold the drivers in place, solder pads up.


----------



## ForceMajeure

I guess it would be OK to use naked copper wire as long as they don't touch each other but I would personally use insulated wires. They might move or slightly touch each other when you will be placing them in the shells...or change position over time


----------



## jbr1971

clarence1 said:


> I started to practice soldering and it's harder than I thought...
> 
> Any tips on soldering drivers? What kind of wire do you use? Diameter, core-flux, etc.


 
  
 When I solder drivers I make sure the wire ends are tinned to help with a quick connection. I also just tap the iron tip on the wire & driver solder pad, never holding it for any length of time. When the iron is at temp it usually only takes 2 or 3 quick taps to get a good joint.
  
 I am using Cardas quad eutectic solder which is approx 1mm in diameter, & it has worked well so far.
  
 Good luck.


----------



## Clarence1

Thanks for the tips. I just went to my local fablab and they made me realise that my copper wire was actually coated, which explains my very poor results 
  
 I sanded the coating off and they gave my some thinner solder and it works just fine, I did 3d printed nozzles too and they are ugly (green) but fit just fine, so I should be done soon 
  
 I'd like to run a small production of these (with metal nozzle instead of 3d print), so I'll contact the headfi admins I guess (since there are rules for commercial accounts) and send a pair to a tester for feedback and review. I can show you the result next week if it's not against the spirit of head-fi/diy.


----------



## Squirg

squirg said:


> Hey guys.  I need some driver/x-over suggestions...  I have these drivers:  CI-22955, CI-30120, DTEC-31116, and ED-26989.  I am a drummer and I'm looking for a bass-heavy, v-shaped sound sig.  Does anyone have any info on the 30120 driver?
> 
> Thanks


 

 Let me clarify:  Choosing from these drivers, what configuration would you go with?  I like the DTEC and ED together but missing that bottom end that the CI produces.  Does anyone out there in HeadFi Land have an idea of how to wire/x-over CI, DTEC, ED?  I also have DD drivers from my SE215's, but I hear hybrids are hard to get right. 
  
 Thanks!


----------



## Pete64

Hi there! Im sorry if doing wrong but simply can not see how to star a new thread here? Im making my first ciem's, and got Knowles DTEC 31116 + 29689. I've got them from Aliexpress and when bought them asked for a good configuration for overall good detailed sound with good bass respond. I placed the 31116 with longest tubes and 29689 with shortest. The shells are really comfort and have a perfect sealing in canal, but the sound really lacks bass, and mids sounds not good at all (cold, sharp, hollow). They where sending a red damper which i put in the 31116 at first but the sound was bad so i replaced the tubes and put the damper in 29689 and they sounded a bit better, but still i think my iphone earphones sounds a lot better. The divider i did not measure, but capacitor is marked 225. Comments please!?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Hey guys and gals, it's been awhile since I posted but i've been hard at work on few projects. 

Here's a simple Westone UM Pro 10 re-shell I worked on today.


----------



## Xymordos

Wow that looks incredible! How do you get the face plate to merge with the shell so nicely?
  
 Also...is the Pro 10 just the driver with no other components?


----------



## MuZo2

Looks cool , specially the faceplate


----------



## Shilohsjustice

xymordos said:


> Wow that looks incredible! How do you get the face plate to merge with the shell so nicely?
> 
> Also...is the Pro 10 just the driver with no other components?





Yes, the UM Pro 10 is just a single driver with a white acoustical filter, nothing else. 

The face plate I made using blue transparent fotoplast, then I used clear fotoplast to adhere the faceplate to the shell, then I sanded the edges so they were smooth with the shell, then buffed out to a glass like finish. 

The fotoplast buffs out beatiful without the need to lacquer it.


----------



## piotrus-g

shilohsjustice said:


> The fotoplast buffs out beatiful without the need to lacquer it.


 
 Impressive, what were your steps for buffing?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

piotrus-g said:


> Impressive, what were your steps for buffing?




 The last few projects I've worked on i've tried a few different methods and found the prep work before the buffing stage is extremely important. I purchased some Dremel buffing wheels like the ones below to see if it would help me work out any imperfections left by my investment. I found that going from coarse to extra fine worked well and the wheel was able to get into areas I couldn't with a sanding block. Then used my table top arbor with a buffing pad and blue buffing wax to get it glass like.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Correction - the Dremel wheels are Sanding wheels not Buffing.


----------



## MuZo2

shilohsjustice said:


> The last few projects I've worked on i've tried a few different methods and found the prep work before the buffing stage is extremely important. I purchased some Dremel buffing wheels like the ones below to see if it would help me work out any imperfections left by my investment. I found that going from coarse to extra fine worked well and the wheel was able to get into areas I couldn't with a sanding block. Then used my table top arbor with a buffing pad and blue buffing wax to get it glass like.


 

 You just buffed the face plate right?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

muzo2 said:


> You just buffed the face plate right?




Yes, I sanded it with an extra fine sanding wheel to smooth and round off the edges using a Dremel then buffed on the table top buffing wheel.

I'm re-shelling a set of UE900's later this week for a friend, I will take some pictures and post of each step I use.


----------



## Squirg

WOW!!!!  Shilohjustice, that is one of the best looking shells I have seen on this thread.  Can you elaborate on your curing process?  How do you achieve such a clear/bubble-free shell? Very nice work my friend!


----------



## Shilohsjustice

squirg said:


> WOW!!!!  Shilohjustice, that is one of the best looking shells I have seen on this thread.  Can you elaborate on your curing process?  How do you achieve such a clear/bubble-free shell? Very nice work my friend!





I appreciate the kind words, I'm at work right now but will post something about my current technique. Most of it has been taken from recommendations provided by some of the alumni here on the forum.


----------



## omgflyingbanana

Do you know what driver the UM 10 uses?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

omgflyingbanana said:


> Do you know what driver the UM 10 uses?




I believe it is a proprietary Sonion Driver, I'll look at the marking when I get home.


----------



## piotrus-g

omgflyingbanana said:


> Do you know what driver the UM 10 uses?


 

 custom knowles bk


----------



## dustdevil

I have finished making my first pair with ED29689 but the the right side is much quieter than the left side from 20-1khz, is it possible that I have overheated the driver? The seal is perfect so it is definitely not the seal.


----------



## piotrus-g

dustdevil said:


> I have finished making my first pair with ED29689 but the the right side is much quieter than the left side from 20-1khz, is it possible that I have overheated the driver? The seal is perfect so it is definitely not the seal.


 

 possible problems
 1. Damaged driver
 2. Shortcircuit at the driver housing
 3. Shortcircuit somewhere along the way before the driver.
 3. Damaged cable (f.e. jack plug).


----------



## David Ramirez

I apologize for this question, but where do I start in this giant thread? I am brand new this game, but I want to dive head first. Is there a guide posted somewhere? Again I apologize, but 310 pages is a whole lot, although I'm grateful for all the wisdom in this thread.


----------



## roughington

I would start from vibrolabs diy section Luke's done a ton of work to try and explain stuff in a digestable manner


----------



## Tulku1967

They responded to Sonion from, they can send 1-1 pcs of armatures:
 $ 2 piece of 28UAP01 price of $ 84.50 and 2 piece of 38AJ007Mi / 8a 60.50 price.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 I'm happy because they are precisely the armature will be back to Angie that were in it. Thanks for the help!

 Next week the shells come from the lab Microsonics ($ 50 a pair, wood faceplate and blue body) I asked him three pieces of 2mm hole. I will try my earphones Westone UM Pro50 drivers implanted in the shell. One deep (CI 22 995), one dual med and one dual high (both some twfk-swfk from Knowles) go to the three hole. But it is not clear how long to let the tubes (1.8 mm ID), because the high and med in Westone about 12-13 mm long and bass about 20 mm. But Angie was bass about 20-25 mm, mid of about 30-35 mm and high of about 50-55 mm.

 Why is there such a difference?
 I heard that the Freqphase system can build up ... maybe ...


----------



## Squirg

david ramirez said:


> I apologize for this question, but where do I start in this giant thread? I am brand new this game, but I want to dive head first. Is there a guide posted somewhere? Again I apologize, but 310 pages is a whole lot, although I'm grateful for all the wisdom in this thread.


 
 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jU37oWefx2dGS8dWw5TVkugEtwJh_bh3fuUBNe2HrQg/edit?pref=2&pli=1#


----------



## Squirg

squirg said:


> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jU37oWefx2dGS8dWw5TVkugEtwJh_bh3fuUBNe2HrQg/edit?pref=2&pli=


 
 And this document shows which drivers are in each diff. manufactures IEM:
  
 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KS2sF6Oh_ZETCiyKYOx0ANV0B66qZLSM3bAWMrP0GuI/pub?output=html#
  
 Hope these help.  I know they did me!


----------



## Shilohsjustice

I finished up the UE900 reshell, figured I share some pics:


----------



## briancortez2112

Nice Work!
 Great Color match to the UEs .
  
 Is that a hodvtec with a twfk?


----------



## Squirg

shilohsjustice said:


> I finished up the UE900 reshell, figured I share some pics:


 

 What is the blue buffing paste you are talking about?  I got some of the multi-colored sanding dremel discs, and I have a cloth buffing wheel on my bench grinder, but I still can't get that glass-like finish you seem to accomplish.  FYI - I found out the hard way that you need to remove the metal protective cover on your bench grinder when using a buffing wheel!  Disaster!


----------



## Shilohsjustice

briancortez2112 said:


> Nice Work!
> Great Color match to the UEs .
> 
> Is that a hodvtec with a twfk?




Yes, it's a twfk and a HODVTEC-31618


----------



## briancortez2112

shilohsjustice said:


> Yes, it's a twfk and a HODVTEC-31618


 
 Cool, that's what it looked like, i have made some in that configuration.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

squirg said:


> What is the blue buffing paste you are talking about?  I got some of the multi-colored sanding dremel discs, and I have a cloth buffing wheel on my bench grinder, but I still can't get that glass-like finish you seem to accomplish.  FYI - I found out the hard way that you need to remove the metal protective cover on your bench grinder when using a buffing wheel!  Disaster!




It's a wax compound that comes in a tube, it is specifically for buffing plastic I get it from Harbor Freight. I have had good luck with it. I can tell you there is a break-in period for your buffing wheel. Practice, testing technique, and patience will get you there I promise!


----------



## Shilohsjustice

@ Squirg - here is a pic of my buffing arbor:


----------



## robervaul

That is my dream. TWENTY BA drivers per the ear!


----------



## s1190

tulku1967 said:


> They responded to Sonion from, they can send 1-1 pcs of armatures:
> 
> $ 2 piece of 28UAP01 price of $ 84.50 and 2 piece of 38AJ007Mi / 8a 60.50 price.
> I'm happy because they are precisely the armature will be back to Angie that were in it. Thanks for the help!
> ...




High frequency travel faster than low frequency. JH audio use different tube length as a method for different frequency to reach your eardrum at the same time. 

Regarding the drivers you purchased. The BA may look the same outside but sonion may customize them (internal) according to JH audio's requirement. Bass can be manually adjust from the cable. I believe it contain a variable resistor. 

Any pic on the original wiring ? Do note that they maybe wired reverse polarity.


----------



## omgflyingbanana

piotrus-g said:


> custom knowles bk


 
 As in different driver altogether? Could you replicate the sound by buying a BK driver and the green filter it uses?


----------



## piotrus-g

omgflyingbanana said:


> As in different driver altogether? Could you replicate the sound by buying a BK driver and the green filter it uses?


 

 don't know


----------



## Shilohsjustice

piotrus-g said:


> don't know




You could get pretty close by using a BK – 21669 and a green acoustic damper.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

You would certainly need to play around with acoustic tubing Length.


----------



## m245

squirg said:


> And this document shows which drivers are in each diff. manufactures IEM:
> 
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KS2sF6Oh_ZETCiyKYOx0ANV0B66qZLSM3bAWMrP0GuI/pub?output=html#
> 
> Hope these help.  I know they did me!


 

 Fantastic resources, thanks!


----------



## raptor18

Colsanmicro are are announcing that this:
  
 http://www.colsanmicro.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/ESC210C30017.pdf
  
 is a TWFK equivalent here:
  
 http://www.colsanmicro.com/applications/in-ear-monitors/
  
  
  
 Who wants to try?

  
 http://szestron.en.alibaba.com/productgrouplist-802104544/ESC210C30017.html
  
 We can have free samples.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

raptor18 said:


> Colsanmicro are are announcing that this:
> 
> http://www.colsanmicro.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/ESC210C30017.pdf
> 
> ...




Looks promising, TWFK for $10-20 definitely worth it!!! The TWFK was partly taken out of use by major companies due to the cost so this could certainly be another game changer for us DIY'ers!!!


----------



## soltenebrum

raptor18 said:


> Spoiler: Warning: Great news!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I wonder if it can match the TWFK's performance, though price is pretty lucrative. I'm interested if it's possible to get them in low quantities.


----------



## omgflyingbanana

I wish Sonion would go ahead and list their armatures on digikey with no minimum order  
  
 I want to buy the dual Sonion armature in the Alclair Curve SO bad


----------



## raptor18

If you list all popular tweeters, you will find a very interesting detail. All of them are very low impedance drivers. Why is this the case?
  
  
 Sonion 2354 -> 10 ohms @ 1000 hz
 Sonion 2389 -> 10 ohms @ 1000 hz
SWFK-31736 -> 6.9 ohms @ 1000 hz
WBFK-30095 -> 13.8 ohms @ 1000 hz


----------



## tirrorex

Hi guys, i already have the electronic parts but i'm too short on money to make custom shells.
 Could i use my parts in regular shells in order to have working earbuds?
 If so anybody got a website where i can order those shells? would be appreciated, thanks


----------



## Squirg

Question: why does everyone say short tubes for HF when JH Audio's Freqphase seems to be a superior application?  It makes sense to me that HF is faster than LF therefore needs longer tubes to arrive at the same time.  I am thinking about trying this process out but I don't have a testing rig.  Anyone out there tried it out?


----------



## Xymordos

A longer tube will act as a low pass filter though, I think that's why.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

xymordos you have inspired me to try my own universals. I'm off to a good start, I will post progress as I get closer to shelling in the components. Here is a sneak peek:


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Coming together nicely.


----------



## Xymordos

Oh wow, did you 3D print that? :O


----------



## MuZo2

I think he used the ue900 to create mold and then UV to create the shells.


----------



## piotrus-g

raptor18 said:


> If you list all popular tweeters, you will find a very interesting detail. All of them are very low impedance drivers. Why is this the case?
> 
> 
> Sonion 2354 -> 10 ohms @ 1000 hz
> ...


 

 Because they all have relatively high imepdance at frequency they are used for.


----------



## MuZo2

tirrorex said:


> Hi guys, i already have the electronic parts but i'm too short on money to make custom shells.
> Could i use my parts in regular shells in order to have working earbuds?
> If so anybody got a website where i can order those shells? would be appreciated, thanks


 

 taobao has some shells.


----------



## raptor18

piotrus-g said:


> Because they all have relatively high imepdance at frequency they are used for.


 
  
  
 Thanks mate.
  
 It sounds then that it is crucial to crossover the tweeter with a cap at an appropriate frequency where the impedance is a little higher to avoid running very low impedance parts of the driver as it is not welcomed.
  
 Edit: The impedance of the WBFK is still quiet low at the higher freqs, http://www.knowles.com/eng/content/download/5921/103147/version/7/file/Receiver+Datasheet+WBFK-30095-000.pdf
 but yes it does raise


----------



## Shilohsjustice

muzo2 said:


> I think he used the ue900 to create mold and then UV to create the shells.





That is exactly what I did, lol!!! Here is a few shots of a fresh made shell, the investment, and a mold that I did last night. The shell has not been sanded or buffed.


----------



## piotrus-g

raptor18 said:


> Thanks mate.
> 
> It sounds then that it is crucial to crossover the tweeter with a cap at an appropriate frequency where the impedance is a little higher to avoid running very low impedance parts of the driver as it is not welcomed.
> 
> ...


 

 anytime,
  
 Your conclusion is correct.
  
 re Edit, this not entirely true WBFK is 40 Ohm at 10kHz and 70 Ohm at 20 is it low? not really if you ask me. Though it's not very high either.


----------



## MuZo2

shilohsjustice said:


> Coming together nicely.


 
 Those are buffed?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

muzo2 said:


> Those are buffed?




Yes, just buffed no laquer.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

shilohsjustice said:


> Yes, just buffed no laquer.





Sanded, then buffed.


----------



## raptor18

piotrus-g said:


> anytime,
> 
> Your conclusion is correct.
> 
> re Edit, *this not entirely true WBFK is 40 Ohm at 10kHz and 70 Ohm at 20 is it low? not really if you ask me. Though it's not very high either.*


 
  
 Those values are definitely not low. They are what i would consider reasonable values. 
  
 It's a little pitty Sonion and Knowles does not provide impedance curve for all their drivers.
  
 I really like that the custom art IEMs are on the higher impedance side.
  
 I still have a theory that higher impedance IEMs are better for so many reasons. I'm still trying to figure out why not more IEMs are on the higher side. One would be sensitivity but BAs usually output way more than what is good for our ears  
 I'm even looking at having them at around ~200-300 ohms.


----------



## roughington

raptor18 said:


> I still have a theory that higher impedance IEMs are better for so many reasons. I'm still trying to figure out why not more IEMs are on the higher side. One would be sensitivity but BAs usually output way more than what is good for our ears
> I'm even looking at having them at around ~200-300 ohms.


 
 I mean the sm64's had a higher impedance ~100ohm. It shouldn't really matter with current mobile devices, as they should output enough current/voltage to drive them regardless, but I think them being very low impedance is a convention from the past to prevent them loading down a signal.


----------



## raptor18

roughington said:


> I mean the sm64's had a higher impedance ~100ohm. It shouldn't really matter with current mobile devices, as they should output enough current/voltage to drive them regardless, but I think them being very low impedance is a convention from the past to prevent them loading down a signal.


 
  
 Low impedance requires lots of current from the mobile device which could be fine. Higher impedance requires less which is even better and gives you a better damping factor. Now that i understand damping factor, i personally want to maintain a high damping factor for many reasons. The only drawback as i understand it (please correct me if i'm wrong) is the available voltage which is limited in a mobile device (in best cases something like 1.5 Vrms) and the sensitivity (higher voltage, higher volume). With BA's sensitivity shouldn't be a problem which will give you enough volume but could be a problem for dynamics. Then there could be cases where you want to maintain a low voltage output from the mobile device to keep the distortion down and that is why you want to keep a lower voltage output (low impedance BA) for a given volume, please help me on this. What i mean is that you don't want to use the full voltage swing of the mobile audio player.
  
 Unfortunately, for full range BA's, you need to keep the "overall" impedance low as it raises a lot with higher frequencies which can't be handled well with mobile devices (you get less highs). However, in a multi BA system, we can maintain an overall high impedance across the frequency and one reason why it's possible is what me and piotr was just discussing above.


----------



## bit-A

Greetings! It's my first post in this forum. I'm really interested in this game 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 and I will start with some questions.
 I'm planning to use 2 X CI-22955, 1 X EJ-23018, 1 X TWFK-30017 and 1 X SWFK-31736 in my project.
 My plan is using 1 X CI for 20Hz-60/75Hz, 1 X CI for 20Hz-500Hz, EJ for 20Hz-End, TWFK for 2KHz-End and SWFK for 4KHz-End.
 I want it to be neutral sounding with decent high extension and not being harsh.
 Is it a good plan? What are the correct capacitor values for TWFK and SWFK in 1st order crossover? Can I decrease CI's output by adding a resistor in series?
 I hope my questions are understandable 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Thank you!
  
 Best Regards,
 bit-A
 Yogyakarta, Indonesia


----------



## raptor18

Don't mix so many different BA types in one setup. 
  
 If you check these lists:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/604851/chart-balanced-armature-based-in-ear-monitors-technical-characteristics
  
 You will see that almost no one does this. The most extreme pro's uses 4 different BA's and they are very very few, most of the more extreme uses 3 different BA's. I would guess you are novice and your trying to do something that only very few PRO's can handle.


----------



## MuZo2

bit-a said:


> *Is it a good plan? What are the correct capacitor values for TWFK and SWFK in 1st order crossover? Can I decrease CI's output by adding a resistor in series?*


 
  
  
 Quote:


raptor18 said:


> Don't mix so many different BA types in one setup.
> You will see that almost no one does this. The most extreme pro's uses 4 different BA's and they are very very few, most of the more extreme uses 3 different BA's. I would guess you are novice and your trying to do something that only very few PRO's can handle.


 
  
 Agree totally , should start with simple designs.


----------



## Xymordos

Wouldn't it be too difficult to fit all of that in one shell o.o The CI and EJ are massive.


----------



## raptor18

Does anyone know if BA drivers follows the rule -> lower "overall" impedance gives more flat impedance curve where's higher impedance drivers have a much more fluctuating impedance curve?
 Is it because of the coil windings?


----------



## piotrus-g

bit-a said:


> Greetings! It's my first post in this forum. I'm really interested in this game
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 While the driver selection is pretty decent in my opinion. Your crossover point's are impossible to achieve without high quality measuring equipement and even with such would probably create some phase issues with TWFK-SWFK
 If you have access to IEC-60318-4 or some chinese knock-off - go for it, if not , try something way more simple - say remove all the dual set ups - so a single CI+ED+FK+WBFK, much easier to deal with.


----------



## raptor18

Aren't phase issues visible in a frequency response? Then you would only need trial and error to get rid of it if you have IEC-60318-4 equipment 
  
 Can you have total phase cancellation between two of the same drivers if you move place them in a formation that could cause it without a crossover? Or can you only have a phase cancellation (in a region) if you use crossovers which shifts phase?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Hello everyone, I have had a few people question me on how I am achieving such a glass like finish on my IEMs and wanted to share a few pics of my investment stage of the process. 

First I do a wax dip of my impressions, the reason being I am able to get a perfect smooth finish which makes for an easy post processing. The key with wax dipping is that it cannot be too hot. You can achieve this by using a tiny sauce pan on the stove and only heat on low. the pictures below are my impressions dipped in wax ready to be cast into an investment. Notice I use a thermometer to gauge how hot my Colloid is, I do not want to melt the wax coating on my impression so I wait for the Colloid to drop in temperature below 122 deg Farenheit (50 degrees Celsius). 

Note: do not overheat your Colloid as it will damage the quality of it, heat on stove or in microwave (10second increments). Do not let it boil!!! Let it sit do not rush this as it will jeopardize your next steps.










I received some Red Fotoplast yesterday and will post some pictures of each step I do.


----------



## bit-A

Thanks for replies! I know it won't be easy, and unfortunately I don't have decent measuring equipment. How about CI + EJ + TWFK or CI + DTEC + TWFK? Is it easier to do? I already got CI, EJ, TWFK and SWFK on hand. I will buy other BA if necessary.


----------



## MuZo2

Colloid you have is more transparent, I am using one from egger and results are not so clear.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

It only took 15minutes for my Colloid to cool and harden, I placed them in the refrigerator to assist in speeding the process. 

You can see how smooth and glass like the shell outline is in my investments. This makes it extremely easy to buff and process through the finishing stages. This first steps in making your investment are extremely important, time and care should be spent on them. 

The pictures below are of my investments, I just removed the impressions from them and I am ready to make shells!


----------



## Shilohsjustice

muzo2 said:


> Colloid you have is more transparent, I am using one from egger and results are not so clear.




My understanding is that the egger product is very similar, if you take it to a boil it causes cloudiness, this is why it's imperative to heat carefully and not let it reach that point. 

Here is a picture of the product I am using, I got it from Chris over at lightning enterprises.


----------



## raptor18

muzo2 said:


> Colloid you have is more transparent, I am using one from egger and results are not so clear.


 
  
 My egger colloids are quiet clear.


----------



## MuZo2

Is it just different lighting or are they different materials?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

muzo2 said:


> Is it just different lighting or are they different materials?




A little bit of both, the top mold was a test run of the universals I'm working on and I re-used material that had been recycled several several times. The lighting there also is from my dinning room and the lighting on the bottom is in my work area with a window next to it. 

Also when I'm doing test runs and experimenting I am less concerned with the quality, so the top mold for the universal I was just seeing if the flute part of the universal iem would retain its shape. It is still Krystaloid but old material.


----------



## MuZo2

Here is my process
 1) Impressions

  
 2) Trimmed impressions
  

  
 3) Waxed impressions

  
 4) Colloid mold

  
 5) UV shells


----------



## David Ramirez

I just got my first impressions completed and I was wondering how I go about processing them and trimming the excess off. What parts are needed and what parts should I cut off?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Hello all, I am going to pickup where I left off earlier.
  
 First is I trim the edge where the opening is on the investment. This leaves a great clean edge for post processing. You will see why it is important to me the care involved in making a great investment.
  
 Without trimmed opening edge:
  

  
 With trimmed opening edge:
  

  
 Next I carefully pour my UV material as to not get bubbles:
  



  
 Next I expose it to UV Light 1min 30seconds (This has been the best time for my results with the light I am currently using.)
  

  
 Then I dump excess into a small cup to be re-used.
  

  
 I expose the opening of the now hollow shell to UV light to cure, this is before I fill with Glycerin.
  

  
 Next I fill the shell while still in the investment up with Glycerin and re-expose it under UV light for 8 min finish cure process.
  

  
 I dump the excess Glycerin into a plastic Tupperware container to be re-used at later time (I took from my wife's kitchen, don't tell her. lol)
  
  
 
  
 Next it goes into an Alcohol bath.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Once out of the Alcohol bath it looks pretty awesome, mind you I have done NO sanding or buffing in the below pic. This result is based off the wax dip and extra care I took in making my investment. If you follow the process you will be making professional grade shells with minimal effort!!!!
  

  
 From here I cut the bottom so it was nice and even, I again cleaned with Alcohol, let dry and moved straight to buffing. You will notice I have a cotton ball in the hollow shell while buffing. I do this to prevent wax build up and dust from getting in the shell as it could smear and jeopardize the finish. When I am sanding I also do the same thing.
  

  
 Now here is the cool part, I still have done NO sanding yet I have been able to achieve glass like finish. The below pics are after I buffed the shell with Blue buffing compound.
  

  
 There is NO sanding done on these shells except to flatten the bottom where the faceplate will go, there is also NO lacquer. I can't stress enough if you take your time and follow the process you will have exceptional results. There are a few small blemishes that I may or may not fix as these were made to show everyone the current process I am following. (I also was excited to see what the Red Fotoplast looked like.)


----------



## jbr1971

shilohsjustice said:


> Once out of the Alcohol bath it looks pretty awesome, mind you I have done NO sanding or buffing in the below pic. This result is based off the wax dip and extra care I took in making my investment. If you follow the process you will be making professional grade shells with minimal effort!!!!
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


 
  
 Very nice. I had issues trying to use wax with clear ballistics gel, so I gave up & have a couple of extra steps I need to do to get a nice smooth shell. Now that I have seen your steps I might have to give it another try.
  
 With the alcohol bath, are the shells just sitting in it in regular light, or under the uv again? How long do you let them soak?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

jbr1971 said:


> Very nice. I had issues trying to use wax with clear ballistics gel, so I gave up & have a couple of extra steps I need to do to get a nice smooth shell. Now that I have seen your steps I might have to give it another try.
> 
> With the alcohol bath, are the shells just sitting in it in regular light, or under the uv again? How long do you let them soak?




Great questions, so once in the Alcohol bath it does not need to go back under UV light. I usually swirl it around and use an old tooth brush to scrub the exterior, about 5min. After that I scoop some Alcohol into the shell and lightly move a cotton swab in it just to make sure all the glycerin has desolved and or washed out. Swirl in the Alcohol again and air dry it. With a dry cotton swab I'll wipe the interior gently after it has dried to get rid of any water marks left over from dried Alcohol. 

Now food for thought, some do the Glycerin in the shell, then take it out of the investment and do a submerging into the Glycerin for a second UV exposure, I used to do it this way but found it would leave swirls on the surface making the need to sand every time. So what I do now is I'm extremely careful when handling the investment with the cured shell in it (to prevent it from breaking the seal it has with the investment wall), the Glycerin in the back of the shell is all I do now, but I resist the urge to dump the Glycerin and move to the next step too early, 8mim is my minimum (I will leave it under UV light filled with Glycerin for 8min no exception). Reasoning is the newly cured shell walls have a great seal to the investment walls preventing air from getting in and thus allowing a full cure. 

If you move the investment around and break the seal of the freshly cured shells you will get a tacky inhabition layer that is a pain to get off.


----------



## David Ramirez

What is the purpose of the glycerin dip?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

david ramirez said:


> What is the purpose of the glycerin dip?




UV material require an oxygen free environment to fully cure, the glycerin acts as an oxygen block thus allowing the material to fully cure without a tacky layer (incurred material exposed to oxygen). Some people place glycerin into the shell cure, remove shell and fully submerge place back under UV light. This method I have found doesn't work for me with the current material I am using, Dreve Fotoplast.


----------



## David Ramirez

Thankyou for your great explanation.


----------



## MuZo2

I put whole shell in glycerin so exterior is also cured fully.


----------



## raptor18

piotrus-g said:


> While the driver selection is pretty decent in my opinion. Your crossover point's are impossible to achieve without high quality measuring equipement and even with such would probably create some *phase issues* with TWFK-SWFK
> If you have access to IEC-60318-4 or some chinese knock-off - go for it, if not , try something way more simple - say remove all the dual set ups - so a single CI+ED+FK+WBFK, much easier to deal with.


 
  
@piotrus-g
  
 When you say phase issues, do you mean acoustic phase?
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_(waves)
  
 or do you mean elecetrical phase issues when matching impedance ?
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_impedance#Device_examples
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_impedance#/media/File:VI_phase.png
  
 I think i might be missing something major here


----------



## piotrus-g

raptor18 said:


> @piotrus-g
> 
> When you say phase issues, do you mean acoustic phase?
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_(waves)
> ...


 

 acoustic


----------



## Shilohsjustice

I have had a few private messages asking about the colloid I use for the investment (mold). 

A few pictures back I posted the krystaloid packaging from lightning enterprises. This is what I use now. 

Would anyone be interested in me posting the Gelatin process for molds??

Gelatin works great and I can achieve the same results. The reason I switched is because the krystaloid retains its shape and I can get several shells from one mold. The gelatin starts to loose its shape after a couple shells, because the uv material (fotoplast) heats during the polymerization (which is perfectly fine, I am just trying to improve my skill set so I make a few with each mold). 

If anyone is interested I can post the process with pics, just comment below that you would like me too. 

The materials are easy to get, you will need Gelatin and Glycerin. Both can be bought at the grocery store. (If your local store doesn't have Glycerin, it can usually be found at the pharmacy.)


----------



## MuZo2

Yes can you please post pictures of Gelatin and Glycerin mold. I am not worried of it loosing shape after couple of shells but more about how much it shrinks during cooling and how is the fit with it?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

muzo2 said:


> Yes can you please post pictures of Gelatin and Glycerin mold. I am not worried of it loosing shape after couple of shells but more about how much it shrinks during cooling and how is the fit with it?




I will post some pics and the process today, it does shrink significantly over the course of a week left out in the fridge, however if you keep it in the fridge in a container sealed it does not loose its shape as quickly. My recommendation is to make the mold the same day you plan on making shells, it won't shrink within this time frame, or make sure you keep it sealed in a container.


----------



## Xymordos

Hey Piotrus, what's your opinion on the method Ocharaku uses in their IEMs to tame the 6kHz peak? They use a calculated 2nd tube to phase cancel the 6kHz frequency in the 1st tube.


----------



## MuZo2

6kHz is the peak present in all IEMs? Vsonic GR07 has it.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

We will start with dipping your silicone impressions in wax, again this gives a nice finish that makes the post processing extremely easy.
  
 A couple things about wax dipping, make sure the temperature of the wax is between 125 degrees Fahrenheit (51.6 degrees Celsius) and 132 degrees Fahrenheit (55.5 degrees Celsius), any cooler than that and the dip will be clumpy and thick and any hotter than that the wax will be too hot and thin.
  
  

  
  

  
 The waxing will produce Gelatin molds that will make you extremely happy!! If you keep the Gelatin in a sealed container in the fridge, you can re-use it several times without worry of shrinkage.
  
 Materials:
*​(4) Packets of 1oz Gelatin = (4oz of Gelatin)*
*1oz of Glycerin*
*350ml of Hot Water*
  
  

  
 I use Hot Water from the tap (Hottest it will produce!), mix the (4) packets/4oz's of Gelatin into Hot Water. (Ensure you are stirring while pouring to reduce the amount of clumps that form!)
  
 Add 1oz of Glycerin to the mix, this will give it strength and elasticity, all important when removing the silicone molds from the investment.
  
 Once I have mixed the Gelatin and Glycerin into the blue cup I separate it, I put part into my glass measuring cup (The blue cup is not Microwavable safe, its just a disposable plastic cup.)
  
  

  
 This next step is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT!*​ Place the freshly mixed Gelatin into the Fridge to set, DO NOT make your first mold with the fresh mixture. It has to setup once before it can be used to make your investment.*
  
 You can place in Fridge to speed up the process! It will take about an 1hr to set prior to using it for your mold.
  
 Below you can see the Gelatin has setup and is ready to be used in making the mold.
  
  

  
 At this point I place the Glass Measuring cup into the Microwave and heat in 10 second increments.
 (I take it out after each 10second interval and pour the melted Gelatin into a small cup, I do this to prevent it from over heating. So after each 10sec's I pour out the liquid.) I do this until I have enough liquid Gelatin to cover my silicone mold. By doing it this way I have found the Gelatin won't heat up enough to melt the wax on my impressions.
  

  
 From here I pour the Gelatin from the small cup covering the wax dipped silicone mold and place in fridge to speed the process. (Do not place in Freezer as it will cloud up.)
  

  
 As you can see, the results are perfectly clear molds, bubble free, that will take your shell building to the next level. The key is following the process and not to rush through each step.
  
 I will post pics of the end result after the investment has hardened and I have removed the silicone impressions.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Here is the finished investment!


----------



## Shilohsjustice

I hope this helps! If anyone has any further questions about shells please let me know and I will see what I can do to explain and or help talk through the process or issues!


----------



## piotrus-g

xymordos said:


> Hey Piotrus, what's your opinion on the method Ocharaku uses in their IEMs to tame the 6kHz peak? They use a calculated 2nd tube to phase cancel the 6kHz frequency in the 1st tube.


 

 Haven't heard them or measured them so I can't really say anything. Sorry.


----------



## David Ramirez

What rotary tool do you all recommend for shaping and smoothing my impressions and buffing shells, etc...?


----------



## jbr1971

david ramirez said:


> What rotary tool do you all recommend for shaping and smoothing my impressions and buffing shells, etc...?


 
  
 I bought a Wen Rotary Tool with the flex shaft attachment from Amazon. It is basically a Dremel knock-off that takes all of the same bits/attachments, & it cost much less.
  
 I used one of the finer grinding stones to smooth my impressions. It works well if you don't press too hard into the impression.
  
 Also used one of the cutting wheels to cut out the notches for the cable connectors, & level off the outer part of the shell (where the faceplate attaches).


----------



## Hutnicks

jbr1971 said:


> I bought a Wen Rotary Tool with the flex shaft attachment from Amazon. It is basically a Dremel knock-off that takes all of the same bits/attachments, & it cost much less.
> 
> I used one of the finer grinding stones to smooth my impressions. It works well if you don't press too hard into the impression.
> 
> Also used one of the cutting wheels to cut out the notches for the cable connectors, & level off the outer part of the shell (where the faceplate attaches).


 

 Just a quick heads up for those who care. Dremel makes or made a battery operated version that runs off 4AA cells. It was a failure so they remarketed it as a golf club cleaning tool. Same chassis as the standard dremel and takes all the bits but it's two speeds are considerably slower so it works well with plastics without heating them up to melting. I bought mine at Home Depot for 9.99 and I hear that Costco gets them in on occasion for the same price. I find it invaluable when working on something that wont take the heat generated by my regular dremel.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Here is a fun one for ya, finished nice single driver reshell. Small ears, this will be the tiniest pair I've done.


----------



## raptor18

To those of you who have the ed-29689. How do you get enough highs? I have the two tap version (mine doesn't have half coil possibilites). 
 For you who have the ed-29689, have you tried to wire it half coil to get better highs in a multi BA system?


----------



## piotrus-g

If anyone's interested ESC210C30017 versus original TWFK30017
 (IEC-60318-4 into 16mmx2mmID no damping)

 I think it's pretty close, at least on the graph. I have no idea how it sounds or how the tweeter will behave if there's cap wired to it.


----------



## MuZo2

They have same names like knowles drivers, so they also have 29689


----------



## Xymordos

Wow, they also have some self designed drivers too. I wonder how they sound.


----------



## cyph3r

Hi all, 
  
 I am on DIY IEM project and wondering what type of wire (material? AWG? coating?) to use inside the shell to solder BA and connectors / xovers?


----------



## ForceMajeure

cyph3r said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I am on DIY IEM project and wondering what type of wire (material? AWG? coating?) to use inside the shell to solder BA and connectors / xovers?


 
 You can use some spare cable from earpohnes /buds/ IEM that don't work anymore, slice them gently and use the wires from inside. Usually those wires are colored green red and brown/copper and have a thin protective layer of coating to prevent shorting. So after you cut them to the right lengths make sure when you solder them to melt the thin shielding coat.
  
 Another option is to buy Estron wires (good quality but expensive) or precut wires from taobao/aliexpress.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Finished another set today. Another UE900 reshell!







The yellow case is a pelican 1010.


----------



## 4ren

Hey guys,
 I need your expertise! I've got a pair of non-detachable Vsonic vsd3 that have a connection issue at the base of the ear piece housing.
  
 Making the switch from wired to detachable would be a good investment. I plan to dremmel, then epoxy in a 2 pin socket, and ideally have the connection look somewhat like the pair of modded westone 4r below.
from BTG-audio
 I'm not sure what kind of options i have regarding the female sockets + cable combinations. Any recommendations?
  
 Thanks so much.


----------



## MuZo2

There are 2 popular options, mmcx and two pin connectors. You can find cables and connectors. I did similar thing with mmcx for westone4.


----------



## MuZo2

shilohsjustice said:


> Finished another set today. Another UE900 reshell!


 
 Nice work again, you are an expert now. Going professional ?


----------



## CoiL

Not CIEM or any molding nor fully-home-made... but... haven`t posted here about my wooden mods I think (sorry if I have):
  
 Yinjw WOM-mod:


Spoiler: Pics






 VE Monk NUN-mod:


Spoiler: Pics








 KZ ATE FF-mod:


Spoiler: Pics








 KZ EDR2 RBW-mod:


Spoiler: Pic






 KZ ED9 mod:


Spoiler: Pics







 KZ ANV mod:


Spoiler: Pics







  
 Who knows, maybe one day going to try to make wooden CIEM ;D


----------



## MuZo2

Very impressive work, I have seen those on other threads, wanted to ask you are they hand made?


----------



## CoiL

Yes, handmade by myself (wooden parts and some metal parts) using some special tools and long-time wood-tinkering skills 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Next mods are probably going to be done to HLSX808, VE M+, VE Asura2.
  
 Actually I`m getting interested in trying to make one DD+2BA woodie - any recommendations what drivers combination to use for beginner in DD+2BA setups?


----------



## Xymordos

Oh my god they're beautiful! Did they sound better after the mod?


----------



## CoiL

xymordos said:


> Did they sound better after the mod?


 
 If this was directed to my mods, then yes, that`s why I modded them, not just to look good. Sound configuration&quality dictated the design outcome


----------



## Shilohsjustice

muzo2 said:


> Nice work again, you are an expert now. Going professional ?




A while ago I remember talking with someone here on the forum about how this becomes an obsession, I'm so hooked it's crazy. I've looked into some of the options to go further with it but for now it's a great hobby (obsession). I'm still pretty green when it comes to crossovers and circuits though I've found a few configs that work for me. If I could do this for a living I would for sure!!!


----------



## Tjgonzo

shilohsjustice said:


> A while ago I remember talking with someone here on the forum about how this becomes an obsession, I'm so hooked it's crazy. I've looked into some of the options to go further with it but for now it's a great hobby (obsession). I'm still pretty green when it comes to crossovers and circuits though I've found a few configs that work for me. If I could do this for a living I would for sure!!!


 
 Shilohsjustice, you have inspired me to start building my own shells. Chris from Lighting Express just sent me transparent Fotoplast and hydrocolloid. Could you describe your process of building the faceplates? Also what cables do you use, they look great!


----------



## Shilohsjustice

tjgonzo said:


> Shilohsjustice, you have inspired me to start building my own shells. Chris from Lighting Express just sent me transparent Fotoplast and hydrocolloid. Could you describe your process of building the faceplates? Also what cables do you use, they look great!




Hey thanks for the kind words, I'll post somethings tonight when I get home from work.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Hello all, I hope everyone has had a great Friday!!! Below I am going to outline how I do my Faceplates, note that this is my method and others go about it much differently. This so far works for me, for this example I'm using a shell with no drivers or connections in it!
  
 You will need:
  
 Sharpie
 4in x 6in pc of picture frame glass (can be smaller, this is just what I had). 
 The investment (Mold) of the ear you are making faceplate for. (Another reason why I clean up the edge around the top.)
  

  
 Place the glass on top of the investment.
  


 Trace the opening with the Sharpie (marker), I usually make it a small margin larger than the opening.
  


 Now remove the glass and flip it over so the marker is on the bottom (you do not want the UV Material to actually touch the Sharpie, hence why I flip the glass.).
  


 Pour a small amount of your UV Material in the center and use a toothpick or tool to spread it around in the lines.
  


 I will usually do one layer then expose it to the UV light, do another layer for thickness, remember we will post process (sand, buff, and so on....).
  


 I then place the plastic sleeve I use to make my mold over the faceplate, and fill with Glycerin to finish curing the UV material under my UV light. You can directly pour the Glycerin over it or submerge it, there is no wrong way just use care.
  

  
  I take a sharp blade and carefully remove it from the glass (took me a few faceplates to get good at removing from the glass.).
  


 Remember that we drew the faceplate then flipped the glass over so when your done the flattest side of the faceplate will face up, side that has the rounded edges will be adhered to your shell. Keep this in mind in case you need to sand and buff the rounded side as your faceplate will be see through and you will likely see and ripples if there was any imperfections.
  
 Im using the shell we made in my previous tutorial on shell making.
  
 Coat the rim of the shell with UV Material or non-blooming super glue.
  

  
 Place faceplate carefully on the shell and expose to UV light. (Be careful to not move it at all as you will see it through the faceplate, again took me a few tries to get good at placing the faceplate on the shell without blemish.)
  

  
  
 Now all that is left is to sand the edges and buff. 
  


 As you can see by doing it this way it is easy to control the thickness and makes a nicely uniform faceplate! If this was a finish pair for myself or someone I would have continued with the finishing process and further buffed until it was completely smooth without any blemishes, but because this was just a tutorial on faceplates I'll leave it at that.
  
 If there is anything else I can help with please let me know. This forum is the reason I have dove head first into building IEM's and I fully understand all those who are venturing down the same path.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

I have been using cables I purchased from Ebay, they are sold by In ear central out of Inverness Florida. I checked today and non are listed but I sent them a private message on eBay to see if they have any more.
  
 Once I get the info I will post back.


----------



## cyph3r

forcemajeure said:


> You can use some spare cable from earpohnes /buds/ IEM that don't work anymore, slice them gently and use the wires from inside. Usually those wires are colored green red and brown/copper and have a thin protective layer of coating to prevent shorting. So after you cut them to the right lengths make sure when you solder them to melt the thin shielding coat.
> 
> Another option is to buy Estron wires (good quality but expensive) or precut wires from taobao/aliexpress.


 
  
 thanks. Looks to me if those wires are polymer coated ("enameled") braided / litz copper or silver wires with AWGs below 25 (probably diameter will have to be optimized for the transmitted frequency. I have a hard time to believe that they are only available in good quality from Estron. Any other source?


----------



## cyph3r

sounds interesting!


----------



## cyph3r

shilohsjustice said:


> I have been using cables I purchased from Ebay, they are sold by In ear central out of Inverness Florida. I checked today and non are listed but I sent them a private message on eBay to see if they have any more.
> 
> Once I get the info I will post back.


 
 sounds interesting!


----------



## Shilohsjustice

cyph3r said:


> sounds interesting!




The cables In my opinion are good quality and I like them better than the stock westone or UE cables. 



I've also used the Linum Earphone Cable MMCX Bax Dual Twist which I get from Warner Tech-care for $36.95 they are just so thin and tiny.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

I haven't bought the eBay cables for a while but I have it saved in my eBay.

Does anyone have a good cable they recommend?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

So I think I've found out what cables the eBay ones are, I think they are made by www.plastics1.com. I have emailed them to get pricing. 



They can also do custom cables, we will see what they say on pricing. Could be a great route to go.


----------



## briancortez2112

shilohsjustice said:


> So I think I've found out what cables the eBay ones are, I think they are made by www.plastics1.com. I have emailed them to get pricing.
> 
> 
> 
> They can also do custom cables, we will see what they say on pricing. Could be a great route to go.


 
 Yea, I buy from them, for the motion iem cable they are sold in a pack of at least 10, you cant buy just one or a few.
 I think Alclair Audio uses these guys as well and im sure many others.
 Price is around $15-16 per cable in the pack of 10 then you buy the pack of 20 connectors and your looking around a price of $200 something + the shipping cost.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

briancortez2112 said:


> Yea, I buy from them, for the motion iem cable they are sold in a pack of at least 10, you cant buy just one or a few.
> I think Alclair Audio uses these guys as well and im sure many others.
> Price is around $15-16 per cable in the pack of 10 then you buy the pack of 20 connectors and your looking around a price of $200 something + the shipping cost.




I'm assuming when you say the connectors you are referring to the female connectors for the shells, or do they charge separately for the connectors on the cable as an add on item.


----------



## briancortez2112

shilohsjustice said:


> I'm assuming when you say the connectors you are referring to the female connectors for the shells, or do they charge separately for the connectors on the cable as an add on item.


 
 Yes, the female connectors for the shells, it runs about $50 something for a pack of 20 2-pin, the mmcx might be a hair more $.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Do they require you to buy the connectors?? I have about 200 female mmcx connectors and wouldn't need them.


----------



## briancortez2112

shilohsjustice said:


> Do they require you to buy the connectors?? I have about 200 female mmcx connectors and wouldn't need them.


 
 No they dont require those, i just thought you might need them as well, you can get just the pack of cables alone.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

briancortez2112 said:


> No they dont require those, i just thought you might need them as well, you can get just the pack of cables alone.




Sweet, thanks!! Did you get my last PM I sent you a week or two ago??


----------



## briancortez2112

We need more wood in here!
 Wooden faceplates are the funnest for me to do, so many choices and looks and colors to match the different woods...


----------



## Shilohsjustice

briancortez2112 said:


> We need more wood in here!
> Wooden faceplates are the funnest for me to do, so many choices and looks and colors to match the different woods...




What type paper/transparency paper are you using for your toner transfers?


----------



## briancortez2112

shilohsjustice said:


> What type paper/transparency paper are you using for your toner transfers?




World Paper
Clear water slide decal paper for Laser Printers


----------



## CoiL

> Originally Posted by *CoiL* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Actually I`m getting interested in trying to make one DD+2BA woodie - any recommendations what drivers combination to use for beginner in DD+2BA setups?


 
 Any advice?


----------



## Pete64

Hi, i need a recommendations for a setup with clear detailed sound with warm and kind of "bassy" sound. What i've got for different drivers are ci-22955, Detec-31116 and Ed-29689, im happy for crossover, dampers and tubing suggestions to. Thanks/Peter


----------



## Pete64

I tried ci-22955 and ed-29689 with 2,2uf with white damper for ed and 10Ohm with red damper for ci, the bass i good i think but i would like some better heights. Any suggestions? And i don't really now what is the best use for the detec-31116?


----------



## raptor18

Either a horn for the ed-29689 or use ed29689 as half coil and make a crossover point quiet high.
  
 I haven't tried the second method but i myself have problems with enough highs.
  
 Does the Etymotics ER4 miss highs (if not, how do they do it)?


----------



## Pete64

Thanks raptor18, i will try horn and see what it will do. Anyone used the detec-31116?


----------



## Squirg

pete64 said:


> Thanks raptor18, i will try horn and see what it will do. Anyone used the detec-31116?


 
 Hey Pete.  I have been working with the exact same drivers for a bit.  I made a set with CI and DTEC in the same tube with a red filter and ED in another tube with a white damper, half coil,  and reversed polarity.  This helps match the output of both DTEC and CI.  No other crossover.  I expected the mids/lows to be bloated a bit and they were but, all-in-all, I found the sound to be acceptable.  I am a drummer and wanted a bassy IEM.  I had to re-shell them because I didn't get a good seal and in the process damaged one of the 31116's.  I couldn't find another so I ordered 2 DTEC-30265's.  I'll let you know how it turns out.  I couldn't find any info on the 31116.  
  
 I like the horn idea.  Might try that on the next version.


----------



## Pete64

Thank you Squirg! I did'nt find any info about 31116 either, maybe i'll try Knowles directly? I sure will try that horn idea too. Now im in progress making new impressions and shells as i rebuilt the ones i now have five times ) and not careful enough broke one ci and one ed. Is there a tread somewere i missed with "recipies" for different (but good ones) signatures? like Westone copies or something like that?


----------



## Squirg

pete64 said:


> Thank you Squirg! I did'nt find any info about 31116 either, maybe i'll try Knowles directly? I sure will try that horn idea too. Now im in progress making new impressions and shells as i rebuilt the ones i now have five times ) and not careful enough broke one ci and one ed. Is there a tread somewere i missed with "recipies" for different (but good ones) signatures? like Westone copies or something like that?


 
 No prob!  Yes, I've crushed and over-heated quite a few drivers as well.  And, my small pile of bad shells is now a box!  The closest thing to a recipe book I have found is:
  
  https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jguxmYfEmZdHEGIUDvQUnfm3vhxo51WeNKKG0_oRtMA/pub?gid=0#
  
 it doesn't give crossover info, but it gives insight into the guts of most of the IEM's out there (custom and universal).  
  
 Good Luck!


----------



## Pete64

Yes i've seen that nice document too, but i could'nt guess the crossovers?


----------



## ForceMajeure

For those who don't know, here is a Japanese blog with a list of drivers used by in various CIEMs
  
 http://84audio.blog27.fc2.com/ 
 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jguxmYfEmZdHEGIUDvQUnfm3vhxo51WeNKKG0_oRtMA/pubhtml
  
 It gets updated regularly, though it doesn't have Xovers info, it's a great source


----------



## Pete64

Is there ANY chart that have xover info? It would be nice!


----------



## bit-A

I've made my configuration yesterday, using piotrus-g's design in post #3964, but using different receivers. Since I'm a beginner in this case, I need someone to check this configuration, is there any issues with this configuration or it's ready-to-go.
  
 http://s33.postimg.org/mz04x25v3/Prototype_1.png


----------



## Xymordos

I received the IEC711 from Aihua a few weeks back. This was my previous 7 driver measured with the ESI U22XT sound card. I'd say it sounds more like what I'm hearing from the IEM compared to the Chinese imitation 711.


----------



## raptor18

It is to me not logical how you can create a low pass filter with a cap in parallel and a resistor in series. It is only with induction you can create a low pass. 
What am I missing?

@Xymordos
Great! What are you comparing in that measurement? Any comparison between Aihua vs Chinese imitation?


----------



## Pete64

My major problem making shells starts with the impression. I may be stupid but i cant get what to look for when cutting/shaping the impressions? I looked at several videos whitout any sound or subs in non of my language. Anyone know of a good video explaining how to cut those?


----------



## roughington

raptor18 said:


> It is to me not logical how you can create a low pass filter with a cap in parallel and a resistor in series. It is only with induction you can create a low pass.
> What am I missing?




You can get a lower band filter with caps though, inductors are shorts to DC if I remember correctly and attenuate AC at certain frequencies so if you want the signal to move to the next driver why would you attenuate the signal in the higher frequency? Doesn't it make sense that the signal of frequency greater than the cut off goes through the cap with little affect to the next driver, and the low frequencies uner the cut off go through the resistor network?


----------



## cyph3r

all, appeding to my previous posts on internal wiring:
  
 I have picked up contact with Estron in Denmark and they offered a kit for around 130 Euros containing ESW Litz and XT-ESW Litz wires* for internal wiring* (e.g. connectors to drivers or , with bulk around total 10 m of wire. 
  
Anyone interested to share / groupbuy this?


----------



## Tulku1967

Greetings!

 Where can I buy a 1.2 mm ID, and 2.0-2.1 mm OD acoustic tube?
 On AliExpress Teflon tubes are only, but harder than the soft PVC tube (mipolan tube) it affects the sound signature.
 Thank you for answers!


----------



## CoiL

Have any of You DIY BA IEM guys used copper/brass/aluminium acoustic tubes "pipes" ? They don`t absorb sound such way as "plastic" tubes and details fowarding is great imho, at least that`s what I`ve learned from modding dynamic IEM`s.


----------



## Pete64

@Tulku1967 I've got soft shrink tubes from this seller on Aliexpress Store name: Shenzhen Paiaudio Technology Co.,Ltd.


----------



## MuZo2

coil said:


> Have any of You DIY BA IEM guys used copper/brass/aluminium acoustic tubes "pipes" ? They don`t absorb sound such way as "plastic" tubes and details fowarding is great imho, at least that`s what I`ve learned from modding dynamic IEM`s.


 

 Its more easy to work with plastic pipes as they are flexible.


----------



## Xymordos

I use stainless steel when possible and it seems to sound better to me imo too. But if you use it for all of your drivers it'll either strongly limit your driver positioning or make your IEM shell huge.


----------



## Xymordos

raptor18 said:


> It is to me not logical how you can create a low pass filter with a cap in parallel and a resistor in series. It is only with induction you can create a low pass.
> What am I missing?
> 
> @Xymordos
> Great! What are you comparing in that measurement? Any comparison between Aihua vs Chinese imitation?


 
  
 I posted the Chinese one before, think it was a few pages back. There is a big difference it seems haha 
  


Spoiler: Comparison


----------



## Squirg

Hey Guys!  I need X-over help!  I am running CI-22955, DTEC-30625, and ED28969.  Any suggestions on a simple crossover?  Per Piotrus's suggestions, I have run CI and DTEC in one tube with a red filter and ED (half-coil and reversed polarity) in another tube with a white filter.  No caps or resistors.  The LF is weaker than a CI by itself and the mids are muddy.  
  
 Any suggestions would be slpendid!


----------



## piotrus-g

switch polarity on either DTEC or CI - you're clearly canceling both out.


----------



## bhazard

Subbed. I made my speakers via a DIY kit and some custom work, and I'd love to make a custom IEM in the same manner.
  
 Since there is no OP with a summary of info, what's the best starting point for me to learn crossover assembly, favorite designs/parts, etc?


----------



## CoiL

Start reading backwards 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Quote:


forcemajeure said:


> For those who don't know, here is a Japanese blog with a list of drivers used by in various CIEMs
> 
> http://84audio.blog27.fc2.com/
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jguxmYfEmZdHEGIUDvQUnfm3vhxo51WeNKKG0_oRtMA/pubhtml
> ...


----------



## ForceMajeure

bhazard said:


> Subbed. I made my speakers via a DIY kit and some custom work, and I'd love to make a custom IEM in the same manner.
> 
> Since there is no OP with a summary of info, what's the best starting point for me to learn crossover assembly, favorite designs/parts, etc?


 
 Coil is right, try to go backward, there is a googledocs made by Furco at some point collecting various posts which explains all the basics.
 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jU37oWefx2dGS8dWw5TVkugEtwJh_bh3fuUBNe2HrQg/edit?pref=2&pli=1
  
 There is a also a subreddit much younger than this thread (with much less info and less to go through) that gather information on CIEMs. https://www.reddit.com/r/DIEMs
  
 It is a long thread to go through, I did when it was about 240 posts already, took me 2 weeks but was worth it. If you already know crossover electronics from speakers design then it will be easier for you to grasp the concept.
  
 Here is a Sonion (Sonion is a brand, manufacturer of balanced armature drivers)  brochure explaining the basics 
 http://www.sonion.com/~/media/Files/Academy/Academy_ProAudio__DocCode_304_V_001_Web.ashx
  
 Sonion and Knowles are dominating the market of BAs, among the many drivers they have, some are quite similar (with almost the same frequency response and impedance).
 Sony lately started  to produce their own BAs mainly for their latest products.I think they are also used by Klipsch in their latest IEM lineup but cannot be bought individually. Other manufacturer are based in China and Japan (more info here).
  
 You could try to open the QT5, I am sure you could learn a lot about designing IEMs and also share with us diyers the secret sauce.


----------



## Pete64

So finally i got CI-22955 with 10 Ohm in 22 mm 1,5 mm ID , and ED-29689 with 2,2uf and white damper with the suggested horn in a 12 mm long tube. Tha sound is nice in bass, quite driven and punchy. Mids are really good imho, but heights still a little low, and not at all "shimmering". Would it need another driver to get better heights? What does half coil and reversing polarity do for a difference?


----------



## Tjgonzo

shilohsjustice said:


> Do they require you to buy the connectors?? I have about 200 female mmcx connectors and wouldn't need them.


 
  
 Hey Shilohsjustice, I can't seem to get my hydrocolloid to liquify without bubbles...Any other tips? I have been heating on stove. 
 Also, how would you suggest I make a white faceplate? I have transparent Fotoplast at the moment.


----------



## raptor18

Driving high frequencies is very difficult due to the nature of BA's (and speakers in general) where the impedance raises a lot compared to the rest of the register. The higher the frequency the higher the impedance which makes it more difficult to drive*.
 That is why you want to have a BA with relatively low impedance so you can lower the high frequency impedance to reasonable level.

 It is described in this article (graph 2)
 http://www.knowles.com/eng/premiumsound/Resource-center/The-Science-of-Premium-Sound-Using-Miniature-Transducers

 Running the ED-29689 half coil lowers the impedance by half, so you will have more reasonable high frequency impedance to be able to drive the high freqs.
  
 However, when doing so, you will drive a very low impedance BA which can be bad for your damping factor and even your player which needs to output a lot of current.
  
 That is why you need to create a crossover quiet high so you don't "play" the lower areas where the impedance is low.
  
 *Higher impedance isn't harder to drive, it just creates a big difference between the high freqs and the rest of the frequency band which has a lower impedance and will play louder than the high freqs.


----------



## Pete64

raptor18, thank you for a very explaining answer! But how is half coil and reverse coupling affecting output and frequenzy?


----------



## dustdevil

Tip of the day: Have good ventilation when working with uv resin (and probably other types of resins) as long term exposure to its vapor can cause illness


----------



## CoiL

Most resins react and "exhale" toxic compounds, cyanide included. I have worked/studied some resins and worked with them while working with carbon/glass-fiber molding and these reactions should be carried out ONLY in ventilated room/chamber!


----------



## Squirg

pete64 said:


> So finally i got CI-22955 with 10 Ohm in 22 mm 1,5 mm ID , and ED-29689 with 2,2uf and white damper with the suggested horn in a 12 mm long tube. Tha sound is nice in bass, quite driven and punchy. Mids are really good imho, but heights still a little low, and not at all "shimmering". Would it need another driver to get better heights? What does half coil and reversing polarity do for a difference?


 
 Pete, I was up most of the night working on this.  I'm stubborn and determined to use the DTEC.  I had probs with CI and DTEC cancelling other out and switching polarity helped this out a lot! (Thanks Piotrus!!!)  In fact, I think switching polarity on CI and ED helped too.  But, the real fireworks happened when I did away with resistors on CI and DTEC and ran them wide open and put a resistor on the ED.  WOW!  What a difference!  I got CI and DTEC to play nice but every time I hooked up ED, the sound turned to crap.  After I incorporated a 10 ohm resistor to ED at half coil, it mellowed it out and harmony and bliss filled my ear holes.  Half coil bumps SPL by a few dbl, maybe 6?  You do not need another driver, ED to my ears gets way up there!  Happy tuning!


----------



## Pete64

Wow, that sounds great! Good work there! Could you post a schematic with what you finally did?


----------



## Squirg

Not sure if this works or not:
  
 https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/12XHs-AufgU2IE7Yzq-O08dijiVQDOBchOBTqqkaIfQw/edit
  
 Let me know if that works!
  
 Thanks


----------



## piotrus-g

squirg said:


> Pete, I was up most of the night working on this.  I'm stubborn and determined to use the DTEC.  I had probs with CI and DTEC cancelling other out and switching polarity helped this out a lot! (Thanks Piotrus!!!)  In fact, I think switching polarity on CI and ED helped too.  But, the real fireworks happened when I did away with resistors on CI and DTEC and ran them wide open and put a resistor on the ED.  WOW!  What a difference!  I got CI and DTEC to play nice but every time I hooked up ED, the sound turned to crap.  After I incorporated a 10 ohm resistor to ED at half coil, it mellowed it out and harmony and bliss filled my ear holes.  Half coil bumps SPL by a few dbl, maybe 6?  You do not need another driver, ED to my ears gets way up there!  Happy tuning!


 
 Great to hear it. My thoughts are that you were still cancelling ED, if you got a "crap" sound but none the less. It would be great idea if you could post schematics of your design I could check it out in spare moment and let you know if there's something you could do better with implementing ED.
  
 If you decided to post graphs, please post one after your new solution and before so that we can see what exactly you'd changed.
  
 EDIT: Oh I see you posted a schematics, but more details would be nice - right now I cannot tell polarity of the drivers. - You can mark either spout or coding (numbers) side so that we can see what position your drivers are.


----------



## Squirg

piotrus-g said:


> Great to hear it. My thoughts are that you were still cancelling ED, if you got a "crap" sound but none the less. It would be great idea if you could post schematics of your design I could check it out in spare moment and let you know if there's something you could do better with implementing ED.
> 
> If you decided to post graphs, please post one after your new solution and before so that we can see what exactly you'd changed.
> 
> EDIT: Oh I see you posted a schematics, but more details would be nice - right now I cannot tell polarity of the drivers. - You can mark either spout or coding (numbers) side so that we can see what position your drivers are.


 
 Sorry, I realized my DTEC was wrong.  This should be more accurate...
  
 https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/12XHs-AufgU2IE7Yzq-O08dijiVQDOBchOBTqqkaIfQw/edit
  
 I really can't give a graph of before because I tried wiring it any way possible before coming to this.  Thank again, Piotrus!  Us newbies are very fortunate to have you around!


----------



## Squirg

piotrus-g said:


> Great to hear it. My thoughts are that you were still cancelling ED, if you got a "crap" sound but none the less. It would be great idea if you could post schematics of your design I could check it out in spare moment and let you know if there's something you could do better with implementing ED.
> 
> If you decided to post graphs, please post one after your new solution and before so that we can see what exactly you'd changed.
> 
> EDIT: Oh I see you posted a schematics, but more details would be nice - right now I cannot tell polarity of the drivers. - You can mark either spout or coding (numbers) side so that we can see what position your drivers are.


 
 Piotrus, I think this is about as good as I can do.  What do you think?
  
 https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/12XHs-AufgU2IE7Yzq-O08dijiVQDOBchOBTqqkaIfQw/edit
  
 Thanks again!


----------



## piotrus-g

squirg said:


> Piotrus, I think this is about as good as I can do.  What do you think?
> 
> https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/12XHs-AufgU2IE7Yzq-O08dijiVQDOBchOBTqqkaIfQw/edit
> 
> Thanks again!


 
OK, that's good enough I will look into this later on (lots of work for today) but I'm really curious about this connection as you seem to be running 10-20 Ohm to the ground which is something I've never seen anyone done before so I'm not sure what the outcome here will be.


----------



## Xymordos

Does it matter which rail (+ve or -ve) you put the resistor on?  I though all the resistor does will be to lower the volume of the ED driver.


----------



## piotrus-g

xymordos said:


> Does it matter which rail (+ve or -ve) you put the resistor on?  I though all the resistor does will be to lower the volume of the ED driver.


 
Check that it's virtually connected as shorting between positive and negative wires - before the driver.
  
So it's not - positive or negative + resistor in series but it's positive to the driver negative to the driver resistor parallel to the driver run to the ground.
 [Edit]: cross that. I think I misread the graph. lol.


----------



## Squirg

piotrus-g said:


> Check that it's virtually connected as shorting between positive and negative wires - before the driver.
> 
> So it's not - positive or negative + resistor in series but it's positive to the driver negative to the driver resistor parallel to the driver run to the ground.
> [Edit]: cross that. I think I misread the graph.
> ...


----------



## Squirg

squirg said:


>


 
 Nevermind the weird box on the bottom left...
  
 https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/12XHs-AufgU2IE7Yzq-O08dijiVQDOBchOBTqqkaIfQw/edit


----------



## Squirg

squirg said:


> Nevermind the weird box on the bottom left...
> 
> https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/12XHs-AufgU2IE7Yzq-O08dijiVQDOBchOBTqqkaIfQw/edit


 
 Okay guys, seriously the last time...again...
  
 I ended up doing 3 sound tubes, one for each driver.  No reason other than better placement of drivers.  LOVING the sound though!  
  
  https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/12XHs-AufgU2IE7Yzq-O08dijiVQDOBchOBTqqkaIfQw/edit
  
 Cheers!


----------



## Pete64

Squirg! What about DETEC-31116, will it work in this setup?


----------



## piotrus-g

squirg said:


> Okay guys, seriously the last time...again...
> 
> I ended up doing 3 sound tubes, one for each driver.  No reason other than better placement of drivers.  LOVING the sound though!
> 
> ...


 
 Created wired exactly as on your graph:
 I don't know where you put dampers so I assumed at half of the tube.
 Here's outcome (IEC-60318-4 +0,1 Ohm output).

 I'm really sorry to say it but this is one big phase cancelation. You should try modify it a bit.
  
 [Edit]: If you remove DTEC you actually will improve sound quite a lot.
 [EDIT2]: Sorry I think my damper was broken in previous graph, here's how it will look with CI+ED only.

  
 Still there seem to be phase issue between CI and ED which could be improved by switching CI polarity - you'll get less sub-bass but better mids and warmer sound.


----------



## Tulku1967

This, unfortunately, I do not understand ....

 The CI  becomes 2x "+", supplies, because first to get the "-" terminal, second  the "+" terminal of the "ED" to go which is also a "+"  is connected to (with 10-22 ohms resistor)
  
  Only the "ED" get "-" and "+" supplies from.



 What I see wrong?


----------



## Squirg

That's wild!  Thanks Piotrus.  I'm wondering now if I graphed it right.  I might crack them open tonight and make sure I copied it right, because I drew it out from memory after closing them up.  I'm pretty sure it's correct though.  What happens when you switch polarity of ED or DTEC?  
  
 Exactly, what should I be listening for?  I am, by no means, an audiophile, but I am a musician and long-time lover of good music.  These sound better than my SE-215's, Astrotec AX-35's, and my CIEM's with CI-22955 only.  If these really do have a huge cancellation, I can't wait to hear them when it is corrected!  
  
  
 Seriously, thank you for taking the time to do this!
  
 The quest continues!...and I told my wife last night that I am done for a bit.  Oh well!
  
 Quote:


piotrus-g said:


> Created wired exactly as on your graph:
> I don't know where you put dampers so I assumed at half of the tube.
> Here's outcome (IEC-60318-4 +0,1 Ohm output).
> 
> ...


----------



## 80sSinger

New to the forum. New to making my own shells.  Right now I'm researching the best place to buy UV resin in the US. I'm also wondering if TAPP Platinum Silicone ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cj4kXAn83SA ) is translucent enough to work with the UV material?  Thanks


----------



## Xymordos

@piotrus-g that dip in the first graph you posted looks like the graphs of one of the Ocharaku IEM haha


----------



## jbr1971

80ssinger said:


> New to the forum. New to making my own shells.  Right now I'm researching the best place to buy UV resin in the US. I'm also wondering if TAPP Platinum Silicone ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cj4kXAn83SA ) is translucent enough to work with the UV material?  Thanks


 
  
 I (and I believe quite a few others) have bought Fotoplast from Lightning Enterprises. It has worked out quite well for me:
  
 http://www.lightningenterprises.com/uvmaterials.html
  
 Good luck.


----------



## 80sSinger

What about the Translucent impression silicon?


----------



## jbr1971

80ssinger said:


> What about the Translucent impression silicon?


 
  
 I watched the video and that is the first time I had heard of that product. From what I saw in the video I have concerns about the uv light being able to penetrate enough (if at all) given the finished mold is not clear.


----------



## sanekn

Hi guys. Im gonna join you soon  well already did... Just like do stuff with my hands (before that some guitars and stuff) but now i wanter to try and make myself a proper pair of iems. Just bought a pair of knowles GK drivers, some tubing, lisa pavelka uv gel, soft transparent silicone etc. Just waiting for the uv light.

Wanted to ask you a question if you dont mind guys. I soldered everything making sure I didnt rest more than 1 sec on the soldering pad so I cant burn the drivers. I carefully depose some superglue around the sound exits of the driver (small tubing, not much just to connect the big one with the driver cause the big one dont fit on both exits). Just to be sure of the sound i insert both tubes like this in my ear and give it a try with some music. I dont know, sounds a little moody with not much details no bass and highs are kinda harsh. When i listen to the ci tube only yes the sound is somewhat more bassy but not enought... Weird. Is it supposed to sound like this? Both sounds the same. Could you give me some advice?

Thanks guys and great tread! And sorry for my broken english - not my native language...


----------



## ForceMajeure

sanekn said:


> Hi guys. Im gonna join you soon
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Until you create a seal within your ear canal you cannot have a good bass and everything will sound like very harsh treble cheap earbuds.
 Only after you have a shell that make good seal only then you can elaborate. 
 Regarding the treble part you will probably need dampers to make them sound less harsh but again you will only be able to test this with shells.


----------



## sanekn

forcemajeure said:


> Until you create a seal within your ear canal you cannot have a good bass and everything will sound like very harsh treble cheap earbuds.
> Only after you have a shell that make good seal only then you can elaborate.
> Regarding the treble part you will probably need dampers to make them sound less harsh but again you will only be able to test this with shells.



Thann you man!


----------



## Squirg

Howdy, fellow Head-Fiers!  So, this is my first crack at making a test rig of some sort.  These IEMs are single CI-30120's.  It seems the CI's should have better LF. Am I not getting a good seal?  I'm using a cheap USB microphone.  Any thoughts/suggestions?


----------



## CoiL

> I'm using a cheap USB microphone.


 
 There`s Your answer.


----------



## sanekn

oh, btw, the pic of the begining, why not 
  
 https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=77385051F0538D56!86905&authkey=!AN7mdElG_ryX-fk&v=3&ithint=photo%2cjpg


----------



## Flukes

Has anybody ever tried adding the ADEL modules?
  
 64 Audio is selling the modules for $100.
  
 The biggest issue I believe would be the placement, such as the tube length and diameter.


----------



## David Ramirez

Is fotoplast s/io the recommended acrylic polymer for shells? Also, what is everyone using for their hydrocolloid? Knox gelatin?


----------



## dustdevil

Quote:


sanekn said:


> Weird. Is it supposed to sound like this? Both sounds the same. Could you give me some advice?



   



forcemajeure said:


> Until you create a seal within your ear canal you cannot have a good bass and everything will sound like very harsh treble cheap earbuds.
> Only after you have a shell that make good seal only then you can elaborate.
> Regarding the treble part you will probably need dampers to make them sound less harsh but again you will only be able to test this with shells.


 
 This, you can try using eartips with a small enough diameter to create a seal with the tube then you will get closer to what it should sound like.


----------



## Squirg

Just got in some Dreve 3 Lacquer from Lightning Enterpises.  WOW!  What a difference!  I can sand and buff for hours and hours and not get the same glossy finish as applying one coat of this stuff.  When I switched from cheap, UV nail gel to Fotoplast S/IO I was impressed at the quality and clarity.  But, using this stuff has really boosted my confidence in shell building.  The only negative is it has a slight yellowish hue to it.  I may be over-exposing it to UV.  Has anyone else had this problem?  However, the benefits far outweigh the cons.
  
 I guess this is yet another lesson on getting the right tools for the job!  Do yourself a favor and pick some of this stuff up.  It was about $50 for 20ml but worth every penny.
  
 Cheers!


----------



## Tjgonzo

squirg said:


> Just got in some Dreve 3 Lacquer from Lightning Enterpises.  WOW!  What a difference!  I can sand and buff for hours and hours and not get the same glossy finish as applying one coat of this stuff.  When I switched from cheap, UV nail gel to Fotoplast S/IO I was impressed at the quality and clarity.  But, using this stuff has really boosted my confidence in shell building.  The only negative is it has a slight yellowish hue to it.  I may be over-exposing it to UV.  Has anyone else had this problem?  However, the benefits far outweigh the cons.
> 
> I guess this is yet another lesson on getting the right tools for the job!  Do yourself a favor and pick some of this stuff up.  It was about $50 for 20ml but worth every penny.
> 
> Cheers!


 
 Having the right tools for the job seem to make all of the difference! I have some shells made with Fotoplast S/IO and I just got the 3 Lacquer in the mail, can you post some pics of how it looks? Also how many shells do you think you'll be able to coat with little 20mL bottle?


----------



## Squirg

tjgonzo said:


> Having the right tools for the job seem to make all of the difference! I have some shells made with Fotoplast S/IO and I just got the 3 Lacquer in the mail, can you post some pics of how it looks? Also how many shells do you think you'll be able to coat with little 20mL bottle?


 
 I'll try and post some pics tonight.  The stuff is way thinner than I thought.  I don't know why, but I was thinking it was going to be thicker than S/IO.  I have only done a few pairs of shells and the bottle still looks unused!  Being so thin, you only need to put a light coat and it spreads very evenly.  I can see this bottle lasting for a very, very long time.  I would say it could easily do 50 shells, probably more!  
  
 Enjoy!


----------



## Tjgonzo

squirg said:


> I'll try and post some pics tonight.  The stuff is way thinner than I thought.  I don't know why, but I was thinking it was going to be thicker than S/IO.  I have only done a few pairs of shells and the bottle still looks unused!  Being so thin, you only need to put a light coat and it spreads very evenly.  I can see this bottle lasting for a very, very long time.  I would say it could easily do 50 shells, probably more!
> 
> Enjoy!


 
 Awesome! So you basically "paint" on the laquer and then uv cure? How long did you cure it for?


----------



## Squirg

tjgonzo said:


> Awesome! So you basically "paint" on the laquer and then uv cure? How long did you cure it for?


 
 Exactamundo!  The lid is a long paint brush, like nail paint.  I cured it for 2 min. tops but haven't really done my homework on curing times for Lacq 3.
  
 Oh, and the best part...NO RESIDUE!  It drys completely.  I wiped it down with alcohol, not sure if that is why I got a little (very little) yellowing or not.  Maybe someone will chime in on this...


----------



## MuZo2

May be 2 mins is too long.


----------



## piotrus-g

squirg said:


> Exactamundo!  The lid is a long paint brush, like nail paint.  I cured it for 2 min. tops but haven't really done my homework on curing times for Lacq 3.
> 
> Oh, and the best part...NO RESIDUE!  It drys completely.  I wiped it down with alcohol, not sure if that is why I got a little (very little) yellowing or not.  Maybe someone will chime in on this...


 read the instruction, lack 3 is fully cured under 1 min. Yellowing can occur to many reasons, but it seems that if your lacquer is new you are overexposing


----------



## Shilohsjustice

squirg said:


> Exactamundo!  The lid is a long paint brush, like nail paint.  I cured it for 2 min. tops but haven't really done my homework on curing times for Lacq 3.
> 
> Oh, and the best part...NO RESIDUE!  It drys completely.  I wiped it down with alcohol, not sure if that is why I got a little (very little) yellowing or not.  Maybe someone will chime in on this...




The yellowing comes from over exposing the lak3 to uv light. 395nm is the freq it needs to cure I believe and in the instructions it mentions 1min is all the cure time it takes. I'd recommend using one of the automatic spin devices from lightning enterprises, it helps the lak3 flow across the shell evenly and then expose it evenly to the uv light.


----------



## Tjgonzo

shilohsjustice said:


> The yellowing comes from over exposing the lak3 to uv light. 395nm is the freq it needs to cure I believe and in the instructions it mentions 1min is all the cure time it takes. I'd recommend using one of the automatic spin devices from lightning enterprises, it helps the lak3 flow across the shell evenly and then expose it evenly to the uv light.


 
 Hey Shilohsjustice! I have a UV curing unit that is 365nm, I checked the manual for Lak3 and you are correct, it states 395nm. Do you think that my light being 365nm will make a difference in curing?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

tjgonzo said:


> Hey Shilohsjustice! I have a UV curing unit that is 365nm, I checked the manual for Lak3 and you are correct, it states 395nm. Do you think that my light being 365nm will make a difference in curing?




It should be fine but you may need to adjust your cure time to compensate. Best way is to test a sample cure.


----------



## Tjgonzo

shilohsjustice said:


> It should be fine but you may need to adjust your cure time to compensate. Best way is to test a sample cure.


 
 Ok, I will do that! Just a quick question, I noticed you have added glitter to some of your shells to the Fotoplast...at what point did you add the glitter and did it affect cure time? Thanks for all your help Shilohsjustice!


----------



## Shilohsjustice

tjgonzo said:


> Ok, I will do that! Just a quick question, I noticed you have added glitter to some of your shells to the Fotoplast...at what point did you add the glitter and did it affect cure time? Thanks for all your help Shilohsjustice!




I usually create my hollow shell, coat with fotoplast (pour a little in swirl it to coat the walls), then fill with glitter, dump excess, then use a hand held uv light to quickly cure to prevent the glitter from sliding. There are a few different methods I use.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Here is a fun little 6 driver waiting to be shell'ed up, it's been quieter than usual on here so I figured I'd break the silence:


----------



## jbr1971

shilohsjustice said:


> Here is a fun little 6 driver waiting to be shell'ed up, it's been quieter than usual on here so I figured I'd break the silence:


 
  
 I have not had a chance to dive into designing my next set yet as I need to learn about crossovers first so I can tune them more precisely this time.
  
 Where do you buy your resistors/caps from? Mouser/Digikey/other along with the drivers?
  
 Are there any specific sites or docs you used to learn how to build the crossovers, or was it all from this thread?
  
 Thanks.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

jbr1971 said:


> I have not had a chance to dive into designing my next set yet as I need to learn about crossovers first so I can tune them more precisely this time.
> 
> Where do you buy your resistors/caps from? Mouser/Digikey/other along with the drivers?
> 
> ...




I usually buy from 3 sources; EBay, Amazon, and Mouser. I purchased a Resistor book which has over 8000 resistors which has lasted me a long while with every value you can think of. 

Capacitors I typically buy off of eBay in smaller quantities. 

Crossovers are tricky and I've relied mostly on tips and tricks posted by the greats here in this forum. Learning what each term and understanding the very basics helped me understand where to use resistors and caps, then playing around with different values to see how it shaped the sound signature. Then I found what I like and have built on that. I'm still fairly green on the crossovers as well so I don't sway to far from what I've come across. 

It also helps to buy broken universal iem's off of eBay and take them apart. 

Here is an example: I had a pair of westone 3's I picked up off eBay for $40.00 because no sound was coming out. I stripped it and used the drives for my own build but decided to check the values in the circuit and came up with this.


----------



## Flukes

Do you perhaps remember the tubing length the westone 3's used?
 If they didn't have tubing, then how far were they to the to the tips?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

There is no tube length, the westone 3 in a universal iem in a small housing.


----------



## jbr1971

flukes said:


> Do you perhaps remember the tubing length the westone 3's used?
> If they didn't have tubing, then how far were they to the to the tips?


 
  
 This is the W4r, and I believe the W3 was setup the same way. The drivers port directly into the housing, directly connected to the output tip.


----------



## Flukes

Does anyone know how long the tubing would be to replicate the westone 3s/30?

 I currently have a knowles gk and I am tinkering with the length and dampers.


----------



## dustdevil

Is there any tricks to getting a uniform coat of wax on the impression? I have tried heating the wax to different temperatures but some parts just hold the wax better and result in a thicker coat.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

dustdevil said:


> Is there any tricks to getting a uniform coat of wax on the impression? I have tried heating the wax to different temperatures but some parts just hold the wax better and result in a thicker coat.




Make sure your impression is facing up, you will need a hooked pick so you can keep your impression with canal up. Try and dip as level as possible. I submerge quickly then slower when pulling it out at a nice smooth pace. 

I posted a video several pages back which will give you a better view. If it appears that your wax is thick in areas you will likely need to turn the heat up just a bit. Keep at it, it took me several impressions to find a consistent result. Temperature is definitely a big factor, I posted some tricks in the same tutorial the video is in.


----------



## dustdevil

shilohsjustice said:


> Make sure your impression is facing up, you will need a hooked pick so you can keep your impression with canal up. Try and dip as level as possible. I submerge quickly then slower when pulling it out at a nice smooth pace.
> 
> I posted a video several pages back which will give you a better view. If it appears that your wax is thick in areas you will likely need to turn the heat up just a bit. Keep at it, it took me several impressions to find a consistent result. Temperature is definitely a big factor, I posted some tricks in the same tutorial the video is in.


 
 Thanks I guess I'll have to try doing the process with the canal pointing up.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

flukes said:


> Does anyone know how long the tubing would be to replicate the westone 3s/30?
> 
> 
> I currently have a knowles gk and I am tinkering with the length and dampers.




The crossover is what is shaping the westone 3 and um pro 30, they are using a more complicated crossover, 2 resistors and 2 capacitors. The GK has 1 resistor and 1 capacitor. All three with a twfk internally crossed over. 

I've had great results using a red damper on the CL driver and a green on the TWFK. 

There are a few big IEM companies who use the GK as it is with just damping it, so very good choice!

I do agree the length of tubing plays a big part in the overall sound stage and response, however each persons ears are very different with regard to length of ear canal, composition, and consistency of ear impressions. I would say a tube length of 10mm could sound different to me than you, what I would focus on more would be ensuring a great seal and consistency in impressions from the right side to the left. Custom molded In-ear monitors do have a different dynamic then universals. 

Have you made your shells and tried the GK's out yet?? If you haven't you may find it very satisfying the way it is.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

dustdevil said:


> Thanks I guess I'll have to try doing the process with the canal pointing up.




Here is the video link to how I do my wax dip:
https://youtu.be/qeeW7ZFLWIY


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Whipped up some nice lime green shells for the 6 driver configuration;


----------



## kaywee23

Has anyone tried using the biopor ab to make silicone earpiece? I found a shop selling it on taobao but im not very sure of how to use it..... is it difficult and messy to use? http://tmqd.me/h.ZXJcge?cv=AAFwzvVQ&sm=d65864


----------



## ForceMajeure

shilohsjustice said:


> Whipped up some nice lime green shells for the 6 driver configuration;


 
 Sexy! so clear and bubble free. What did you use to make the coloring?
  
 Also I assume this one is polished and  buffed  as you do them, with blue compound for the final stage.


----------



## ForceMajeure

kaywee23 said:


> Has anyone tried using the biopor ab to make silicone earpiece? I found a shop selling it on taobao but im not very sure of how to use it..... is it difficult and messy to use? http://tmqd.me/h.ZXJcge?cv=AAFwzvVQ&sm=d65864


 
 There is this video, doesn't look to messy.
 This vid also contain the dipping process of the ear impression in wax. (dustdevil)


----------



## Shilohsjustice

forcemajeure said:


> Sexy! so clear and bubble free. What did you use to make the coloring?
> 
> Also I assume this one is polished and  buffed  as you do them, with blue compound for the final stage.




Thanks!!! At the advice of @Briancortez2112 I used acrylic ink, amazing!!! It mixes extremely well in Dreve Fotoplast and I was absolutely shocked how well it did. I've tried several of the colors and they all seem to mix and color extremely well!!

This is the brand and color combo I bought:


Yes, these are just buffed/polished no lak on them. I am planning to do a graphic on this set so they will likely end up with a coat in the end.


----------



## ForceMajeure

How long do the IEMS you buffed stay clear?
 The few tries I done so far, I saw that sometimes if I get cheap on the laquing process and don't use enough they get opaque from tiny scratches quite fast.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

forcemajeure said:


> How long do the IEMS you buffed stay clear?
> The few tries I done so far, I saw that sometimes if I get cheap on the laquing process and don't use enough they get opaque from tiny scratches quite fast.




 I haven't had any discolor as of yet. I have a clear set I use every day that are still crystal clear. The lacquer is affected by UV light, which is why if you leave it exposed for too long it can haze or turn yellow. With that said I can confidently say that natural sunlight which emits UV rays can also affect shells coated in lacquer. Someone who leaves their IEM's by a window on a desk or on the passenger seat of a car could experience yellowing or hazing.

 Shells not coated in lacquer seem to be much more resilient to discoloration. On shells that are multicolor you really do not notice yellowing or hazing as much when lacquer has been applied. 

Piotrus-g helped me a few months back when he showed me the process I was doing could render better results with some tweaking. I was lacquering my shells and then buffing, Peter pointed out that the lacquer layer really should not be buffed because it could cause damage to the layer. Up until that point I had noticed that a few areas would be hazy, this was because I was in fact damaging the lacquer. On the next shells I made from that point I prepped the shells with the intention of lacquering last and found by spending extra time buffing I was able to eliminate The lacquer layer altogether. Now I usually will use lacquer to build up the Canal should there be a loose fit.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Also I want to add that there is something called pluming that is a result of fumes from certain adhesives. If you use certain super glues to adhere sound tubes to driver ports or adhere the faceplate once closed and sealed the fumes have no where to escape resulting in hazing. Sometimes it doesn't show up for a few hours or longer. 

The super glue I typically use is loctite 495, it has a low plume and dries clear.


----------



## piotrus-g

shilohsjustice said:


> Piotrus-g helped me a few months back when he showed me the process I was doing could render better results with some tweaking. I was lacquering my shells and then buffing, Peter pointed out that the lacquer layer really should not be buffed because it could cause damage to the layer. Up until that point I had noticed that a few areas would be hazy, this was because I was in fact damaging the lacquer. On the next shells I made from that point I prepped the shells with the intention of lacquering last and found by spending extra time buffing I was able to eliminate The lacquer layer altogether. Now I usually will use lacquer to build up the Canal should there be a loose fit.


 
 Really I did say that? hahaha I can't remember it.
 Buffing of lacquer can result in breaks only if you buff for too long - heated wheel will create cracks in lacquer surface. Other than that for DIY purposes correctly applied lacquer is as good as polish, and it seem to be much easier solution for beginners.


----------



## MuZo2

shilohsjustice said:


> Thanks!!! At the advice of @Briancortez2112 I used acrylic ink, amazing!!! It mixes extremely well in Dreve Fotoplast and I was absolutely shocked how well it did. I've tried several of the colors and they all seem to mix and color extremely well!!
> 
> This is the brand and color combo I bought:
> 
> ...


 
 Is it skin safe?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

muzo2 said:


> Is it skin safe?




In liquid form the MSDS states it could cause skin irritation wash with soap and water, but does say it is non-toxic. 

Fotoplast MSDS states if skin irritation wash with soap and water as well. 

It should release nothing chemically once cured.


----------



## dustdevil

forcemajeure said:


> There is this video, doesn't look to messy.
> This vid also contain the dipping process of the ear impression in wax. (dustdevil)




 Nice vid, but what's the purpose of applying wax using a brush before dipping the impression?


----------



## Squirg

Hey guys.  Just thought I would show off a few sets I recently completed.  The Carbon Fibers are GK plus an extra CI and the Woody/Steampunks are CI + ED. 
  
 Thank you all for the knowledge, inspiration, and patience.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

squirg said:


> Hey guys.  Just thought I would show off a few sets I recently completed.  The Carbon Fibers are GK plus an extra CI and the Woody/Steampunks are CI + ED.
> 
> Thank you all for the knowledge, inspiration, and patience.




Those are beautiful!!!! Nice work, they look great and I'm sure they sound as good as they look!!! Loving the steampunk style faceplate!!!


----------



## ForceMajeure

dustdevil said:


> Nice vid, but what's the purpose of applying wax using a brush before dipping the impression?


 
  I have no idea. Maybe he just wanted to rectify/add a thicker layer in those area.
  


squirg said:


> Hey guys.  Just thought I would show off a few sets I recently completed.  The Carbon Fibers are GK plus an extra CI and the Woody/Steampunks are CI + ED.


 
 Great work! I see you managed to make a 3 bore design. What tube diameter did you use? What did you use to drill 3 holes without the canal breaking or is it one big hole filled?


----------



## Squirg

Thanks! I believe it is 1.6 or 1.8. Yes, I just dremmel out the business end as thin as I can without breaking it. Which has taken some trial and much error. Then, pour fotoplast down the tubes and cure it. Thanks for all your input! I tell people all the time that this thread is all the info you need to DIY CIEM!


----------



## MuZo2

Nice work Squirg they look very professional ,  quality of iems in this thread has really gone up. This thread has already produces two companies, custom art and jomo.


----------



## Tjgonzo

squirg said:


> Thanks! I believe it is 1.6 or 1.8. Yes, I just dremmel out the business end as thin as I can without breaking it. Which has taken some trial and much error. Then, pour fotoplast down the tubes and cure it. Thanks for all your input! I tell people all the time that this thread is all the info you need to DIY CIEM!


 
 Looks great! Are you adding Laquer 3 to get such smooth finishes or have you perfected your investment making like Shilosjustice?


----------



## Squirg

tjgonzo said:


> Looks great! Are you adding Laquer 3 to get such smooth finishes or have you perfected your investment making like Shilosjustice?


 
 Lacquer 3 has been my new best friend!  I am getting much better at acquiring that polished look using Shilos method, but Lac3 is just SO easy and clean that it is hard not to do.  Plus, it is very thin and goes on uniform, so you can gradually add on layers in order to get the perfect fit.
  
 Thanks!


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Many people do many things to relax after a long day, some play golf, some watch TV, some like to do nothing, I prefer to tinker........... 

What a welcoming sight to come home to after a rough day at work.



This is where I plan on being for the next several hours.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

The evening starts with some fresh shells!!


----------



## ForceMajeure

My desk is a big mess compared to yours, also I have monitors a and other stuff that take so much space...I need to clean it asap.
 You have tons of mmcx female connector, Where did you got them?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

forcemajeure said:


> My desk is a big mess compared to yours, also I have monitors a and other stuff that take so much space...I need to clean it asap.
> You have tons of mmcx female connector, Where did you got them?




Well my desk is a mess now, lol.

I get my connectors off of eBay, $35 for 100 count. I also prefer the round tip connectors instead of the oval surface mount ones. 

MMCX Connector


----------



## Shilohsjustice

shilohsjustice said:


> Well my desk is a mess now, lol.
> 
> I get my connectors off of eBay, $35 for 100 count. I also prefer the round tip connectors instead of the oval surface mount ones.
> 
> MMCX Connector




Oh, a quick tip with the connectors I get - use flat edge snips to shorten or remove the legs. I typically trim 3 completely off and shorten the other 2 so they do not come into contact with the drivers in small shells.


----------



## Squirg

shilohsjustice said:


> Many people do many things to relax after a long day, some play golf, some watch TV, some like to do nothing, I prefer to tinker...........
> 
> What a welcoming sight to come home to after a rough day at work.
> 
> ...


 
 That is my happy place as well.  We should all post pics of our workstations.  However, after seeing your, I am going to do some serious cleaning/organization.  
  
 Thanks for the tip on the MMCX.  What is your source for Litz wire?  
  
 Thanks


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Here is some fruits of labor from last nights shell making party!!! I ended up with 6 sets, a couple universal sets, some different glitter sets and tested a few different colors. 

Glitter Shells - Fotoplast with glitter mix, coat of Laquer 3.

Lime Green - Fotoplast mixed with Acrylic Ink, Buffed/Polished.

Red Shells - Red Fotoplast, Buffed/Polished


----------



## Squirg

shilohsjustice said:


> Here is some fruits of labor from last nights shell making party!!! I ended up with 6 sets, a couple universal sets, some different glitter sets and tested a few different colors.
> 
> Glitter Shells - Fotoplast with glitter mix, coat of Laquer 3.
> 
> ...


 
 Absolutely, stunning!!!  The glitter are my favorite!  Where did you get your glitter mix?  Mind posting a link?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

squirg said:


> Absolutely, stunning!!!  The glitter are my favorite!  Where did you get your glitter mix?  Mind posting a link?




I used extra fine glitter, the gunmetal glitter was mixed in clear fotoplast, and the red glitter mixed in red fotoplast. I get the glitter from local hobby store, Hobby Lobby.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

There are many options for Glitter.


----------



## Squirg

shilohsjustice said:


> There are many options for Glitter.


 
 Dude!  Glow-in-the-dark glitter?!!!  Must...Try...This!!!
  
 Does the glitter change the drying times?  It seems like it would block the light getting through...  Also, do you pour in the red-cure-drain, pour in grey-cure-drain?  Or, pour red then grey-cure?
  
 Awesome work!!!


----------



## Shilohsjustice

squirg said:


> Dude!  Glow-in-the-dark glitter?!!!  Must...Try...This!!!
> 
> Does the glitter change the drying times?  It seems like it would block the light getting through...  Also, do you pour in the red-cure-drain, pour in grey-cure-drain?  Or, pour red then grey-cure?
> 
> Awesome work!!!




It does slightly change the cure time, I usually cure an extra 10-20 seconds when doing glitter shells. I pour the tip and use a cotton swap dipped in alcohol to wipe any drips on the investment wall that is not part of the tip, pour the rest of the shell, cure and drain. This tip typically doesn't have enough to dramatically alter the body color when drained, then do secondary shell opposite color, tip the body color of previous and vise versa to add flare. 

I use just enough glitter to look solid but it is in fact see through.


----------



## Squirg

shilohsjustice said:


> It does slightly change the cure time, I usually cure an extra 10-20 seconds when doing glitter shells. I pour the tip and use a cotton swap dipped in alcohol to wipe any drips on the investment wall that is not part of the tip, pour the rest of the shell, cure and drain. This tip typically doesn't have enough to dramatically alter the body color when drained, then do secondary shell opposite color, tip the body color of previous and vise versa to add flare.
> 
> I use just enough glitter to look solid but it is in fact see through.
> 
> ...


----------



## Shilohsjustice

squirg said:


> shilohsjustice said:
> 
> 
> > It does slightly change the cure time, I usually cure an extra 10-20 seconds when doing glitter shells. I pour the tip and use a cotton swap dipped in alcohol to wipe any drips on the investment wall that is not part of the tip, pour the rest of the shell, cure and drain. This tip typically doesn't have enough to dramatically alter the body color when drained, then do secondary shell opposite color, tip the body color of previous and vise versa to add flare.
> ...


----------



## ForceMajeure

I found a nice vid from a german guy, he does the all process.(there are english subtitle).


----------



## Pete64

I,ve seen this and tried to use the Magic gloss resin he uses. The resin did'nt work for me at all. I also bought a small bottle "Abdrucklack" but did'nt have time to try it yet. Othervise really nice video!


----------



## ForceMajeure

pete64 said:


> I,ve seen this and tried to use the Magic gloss resin he uses. The resin did'nt work for me at all. I also bought a small bottle "Abdrucklack" but did'nt have time to try it yet. Othervise really nice video!


 
 The best way is to get the proper materials, Dreve/Egger UV resin (fotoplast).


----------



## ForceMajeure

Anyone here knows about laser engraving?
  
 I thought about buying some cheap laser engraving machine but there are a various laser power and I don't know what is suitable for engraving the acrylic UV resin.
  
 I also thought about going the DIY route and make my own engraving machine from various dvd-rom drives that I have lying around but I don't know if the dvdrom laser is suitable for engraving.


----------



## Pete64

Very interesting subject! I have also thought about this, and read a few "instructables"


----------



## MuZo2

Laser engravers are now available for cheap, I was also thinking to get one, but there are now 3d printers which can do 3-4 things together. Print, laser engrave, scan, mill.


----------



## ForceMajeure

Yeah, but 3d printers are more expensive. I mean if a  500mw laser machine is enough to get good result it can be bought for around 60$. There also less powerd laser for cheaper.
 The question is what power laser is required? Also the resolution of the print might be important because on a faceplate we are talking about a small area for engraving usually a few millimeters top. Then paste some acrylic paint over it and wipe it clean.


----------



## CoiL

I might get my hands on 3D printing and CNC benches soon - I`m changing my workplace and new spot has many opportunities and machines - I may be soon into creating custom IEM`s guys ;P


----------



## Squirg

Howdy!  Anyone have a good source for Litz wire?  I have been harvesting from old ear buds but I am trying to get more consistent/professional.
  
 Also, I have been using Dreve products for a while now and had great results.  I was going to try some Egger products cause it's a little cheaper.  Anyone had good experience Egger?  I curious about the modeling paste too?
  
 Thanks


----------



## ForceMajeure

I sourced all my products from taobao using a forwarding agent such as mistertao.com and sometimes buy directly from them also. 
  
 I use Egger and have good experience with it so far it is equivalent quality to Dreve. there is a cheaper uv resin brand on taobao called "Nice-fit". That's what is used for 90% of the ciem/iem sold over there and can be found as the new flavor in town in the chinese thread on headfi. The Nice-fit is a little bit lower quality as it might have a more yellow hue over time if you make a complete transparent shell. But should be equivalent quality curing-wise and resistance. I thought about getting it to try different colored shell option but I still have Egger.
 There are also estron wires sold there or precut and tined litz wire (cost less than estron).
  
 I don't know what you mean modeling paste? If you meant blu tack It can be found on ebay/amazon/aliexpress...


----------



## Pete64

I live in eu, anyone knows where Egger could be bought?


----------



## CoiL

pete64 said:


> I live in eu, anyone knows where Egger could be bought?


 
 Same question. I`m also getting into this hobby and would like to get materials from close as possible. I`m also in EU.


----------



## MuZo2

You can ask hearing aid labs, if they can provide you. Most of the suppliers only works with labs and handle big orders, so its hard to find. I had registered to one or two online sites but they dont send you material unless you have lab license & vat id ....


----------



## piotrus-g

pete64 said:


> I live in eu, anyone knows where Egger could be bought?


 

 Umm... From Egger? they are in Germany.
 https://egger-labor.de/enplace/1101/en/contact.jsp
 Send them inquiry and they will create an account for you


----------



## MuZo2

I did, the sales lady called me up and she said they only work with labs. She asked me to get in contact with the local labs.


----------



## piotrus-g

muzo2 said:


> I did, the sales lady called me up and she said they only work with labs. She asked me to get in contact with the local labs.


 

 Oh I see...


----------



## Pete64

That's what i thought! I have a hard time finding local labs in Sweden so i dont know where to look really? Who uses Egger? I'ts not like the labs advertise "we use egger" haha


----------



## Sinzo

Anyone had experience with Lisa Pavelka magic glos for shell construction?
  
 Also, what's the optimal dual driver for a CIEM?


----------



## MuZo2

Lisa Pavelka isnt it similar like Nail UV lacquer? Egger and Dreve are specially used for hearing aids and CIEM & are skin safe.
  
 Dual driver
 Knowles - TWFK , GK, GQ
 Sonion - 1723 AcuPass™


----------



## Sinzo

I've seen people using this and UV nail varnish, so it seems like a possibility.
  
 A guy used it in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKix3-ZeoL0


----------



## Sinzo

Also, what about a DTEC + RAB triple driver? It seems like a good idea, with the RAB for the low end, and the DTEC for highs and mids.


----------



## MuZo2

sinzo said:


> I've seen people using this and UV nail varnish, so it seems like a possibility.
> 
> A guy used it in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKix3-ZeoL0


 

 Yes it can be done, but it might not be skin safe. I created some sets myself, but added a coat of Dreve UV.


----------



## piotrus-g

sinzo said:


> A guy used it in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKix3-ZeoL0


 
 Well that guy also made his ear impressions by himself and used EPOXY (!!!) resin for his first monitors...
  
 Look, no one here will discourage you from attempting to build your IEMs, quite opposite actually, but if you hurt yourself it's on you.


----------



## Sinzo

Thanks for the advice, I'll look at other alternatives.


----------



## Sinzo

Do you know if some of the stuff on here is suitable? They're a seller of the materials that audiologists to make shells. I can't get my hands on Drever or Egger as I'm in the UK unfortunately.
  
 http://www.mcear.de/epages/78599304.sf/de_DE/?ObjectPath=/Shops/78599304/Categories/Category2/Schalenbau


----------



## MuZo2

UV material
 http://www.mcear.de/epages/78599304.sf/de_DE/?ObjectPath=/Shops/78599304/Products/8051
  
 Its lot cheaper than Dreve or Egger.
  
 They also sell shells for 15Euro, but no real pictures to see the quality.


----------



## ForceMajeure

I was in the same place as you, I couldn't find materials and no lab was willing to sell, also it was more expensive than from taobao so I decided to order from there. The problem is that the shipping time are longer but you can find everything at reasonable prices.
  
 To be sure, I have no affiliation whatsoever with the following places I recommend.
  
 From this guy I bought most of my raw materials (resin, laquer, all the colors you want, ear impression materials...) 
 https://shop107562626.world.taobao.com/search.htm?spm=a312a.7700824.0.0.ppjl8a&search=y
  
 From this store I bought drivers, cables, 2 pin connectors, litz wire and stuff (he used to have more material). He is very friendly helped me a ton, speaks very good english and he also have a lot of experience making ciem, 
 https://shop63037719.world.taobao.com/?spm=a312a.7728556.2015080705.12.OkYqXx
  
 There are  a lot of stores that have materials, If you can't find a place to source things, taobao is a good place and using a forwarding agent is the best way.


----------



## Sinzo

Cool! Thanks for advice.
  
 I'll definitely use it in the future, just trying to get these done in 20ish days before my flight.


----------



## MuZo2

Most of shipping companies from China dont ship liquid. Also forwarding agents like mistertao will not accept such orders.


----------



## ForceMajeure

20 days! Good luck with that! I ordered things month ago and wasn't able to make a good working pair yet though I didn't had much time but still the 1st times using this stuff were challenging.


----------



## Sinzo

Yeah, most of the stuff I'm shipping is in the EU, and using first class means I'll get it in a few days.
  
 Hopefully.


----------



## ForceMajeure

muzo2 said:


> Most of shipping companies from China dont ship liquid. Also forwarding agents like mistertao will not accept such orders.


 
 I have used mistertao to ship materials twice including resins, no problem with that as long as you use Singapore mail or Malysia mail services . You can choose those mail services at check out on mistertao, they accept shipping liquids. Unless they changed there policy since April (last time I shipped resin).
  
 You are right about the fact that stores on taobao won't ship egger resin outside China, but the forwarding agent receive the packet in china then mail it to you so that's convenient.


----------



## Sinzo

What's the best single BA for use with a dynamic?


----------



## ForceMajeure

sinzo said:


> What's the best single BA for use with a dynamic?


 
 If you can get  a good dynamic driver to work correctly in the shell then TWFK IMO.
 The challenge is the dynamic driver though.


----------



## Sinzo

I've got a decent dynamic that I took from a universal I liked but didn't need.


----------



## ForceMajeure

The problem is implementing the DD in a custom shell.
 You have to realize that the DD was used in tandem with the universal shell and got a part of its sound from it. A DD reflect soundwaves from the back of the shell and the diaphragm react according to it, this shape mainly bass response and other part of the audio spectrum.
  
 Now lets say you want to use a "simple design CIEM" and actually use the DD for bass response and add a BA for mid and treble.
 You can mute the mids and treble from the DD using a high value damper in the sound tube coming from it, also maybe place a resistor in series with the DD  to lower the SPL output so it will be "inline" with the twfk when the twfk takes over the rest of the frequency response (also use a low damper for the twfk so the treble are'nt too shrill).
  
 So far so good. The problem is actually acoustically "controlling" the DD after you have "encapsulated"  it and how the back soundwaves will react within the custom shell (or space left for the DD to breath inside the shell) shaping the bass response of the DD.
 In the end the sound might not be soo good. Its a game of trials and error.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

I ordered a 1000mw laser engraver but have not received it yet, I will post my thoughts and results once I have had opportunity to calibrate and test it.


----------



## Pete64

I've seen one on Aliexp, but was not shure if it would engrave acrylic? The 500w would not. Hope it works well!


----------



## ForceMajeure

Shilo taking it to the next level. can you post a link of what you ordered?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

forcemajeure said:


> Shilo taking it to the next level. can you post a link of what you ordered?




This is what I ordered:
SuperCarver 1000mW Laser Engraving Machine DIY Engraver Logo Printer Kit

I chose this one because I felt the laser head would be easier to swap out should I need a higher power laser.


----------



## Sinzo

How much was it? Just asking in case.


----------



## Sinzo

Also, for wiring up the drivers to the connector, is it necessary to use Litz wire or is standard electrical project wire fine?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

sinzo said:


> How much was it? Just asking in case.




If this was directed towards me it was $124 shipped, you can use electrical wire if you want. It's just that litz wire is like 48-50 microns stranded meaning it is extremely small and flexible and better to handle. 

Easy thing to do if you do not have access to litz wire is by cheap earphones, I can get them in the States for a few dollars, and strip the wire out. This is what I did prior to ESW litz wire. 

Also silver litz is a better conductor resulting in a higher sound quality.


----------



## Sinzo

Thanks, I'm probably just going to stick with project wire.


----------



## ForceMajeure

NIce facebook page with good pictures https://www.facebook.com/InEarCentral/


----------



## Farquarl

Hey guys im learning alot from you and wanted to give something back. Is anyone interested in the process of 3D Scanning the impressions and 3D printing the shells? Because that's what I'm doing right know and it looks promising.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

farquarl said:


> Hey guys im learning alot from you and wanted to give something back. Is anyone interested in the process of 3D Scanning the impressions and 3D printing the shells? Because that's what I'm doing right know and it looks promising.




I am definately interested in what you have been able to accomplish with the 3D printing.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

So I know a few of you were curious as to how the laser engraving would turn out.............I received the unit today and have had a few hours to play around with it...............


----------



## Shilohsjustice

So far the clear is the hardest to mark, but I think I have figured it out and want to share some results. I did not have marking material but found that white finger nail polish worked well. 

I can't say it's an easy process, but found a way to make it work. 

In the image I am going to share it did take several passes to get a good result. 6 to be exact which equated to about 8 minutes. 

This is a huge break through for us DIY, as it affords us the opportunity to etch high resolution face plates and use different mediums to create outline art like the pros do. This is a better solution than water slide paper on outline art.


----------



## Shilohsjustice




----------



## ForceMajeure

This look great!
  
 Does it leave a black burned layer on the surface that have been engraved?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

forcemajeure said:


> This look great!
> 
> Does it leave a black burned layer on the surface that have been engraved?




There was no burn layer, I was actually surprised as I thought there would be marks I would need to clean or correct. I am planning on doing a graphic design tonight on a face plate blank, I will post pics of the design without any color in it.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Note, I'm still working on getting a good engrave on clear, red so far is the one I've spent the most time with.


----------



## ForceMajeure

Good luck, maybe you can place some dark material under the clear or even mark the inner side with a sharpie to see if it makes a difference.


----------



## jbr1971

farquarl said:


> Hey guys im learning alot from you and wanted to give something back. Is anyone interested in the process of 3D Scanning the impressions and 3D printing the shells? Because that's what I'm doing right know and it looks promising.


 
  
 I am definitely interested. I had looked into it a bit, but couldn't find a scanning solution I liked, or that was a decent price. The local 3D printing/scanning places want way too much money to scan 2 small ear impressions.
  
 Did you buy or build your scanner?


----------



## jbr1971

deleted (same idea was offered already)


----------



## Shilohsjustice

forcemajeure said:


> Good luck, maybe you can place some dark material under the clear or even mark the inner side with a sharpie to see if it makes a difference.




That's a great idea, I will certainly keep everyone posted as to how things go.


----------



## Pete64

Looks really good! Is that the smallest font or could it be smaller?


----------



## CoiL

jbr1971 said:


> I had looked into it a bit, but couldn't find a scanning solution I liked, or that was a decent price.
> *Did you buy or build your scanner?*


 
 Same questions. I have printing capabilities soon for free but can`t figure out cheapest and easily available solution for scanning.


----------



## MuZo2

farquarl said:


> Hey guys im learning alot from you and wanted to give something back. Is anyone interested in the process of 3D Scanning the impressions and 3D printing the shells? Because that's what I'm doing right know and it looks promising.


 

 Is its with professional equipment? Is the printer UV or abs/pla? Whats the resolution of scanner?


----------



## MuZo2

coil said:


> Same questions. I have printing capabilities soon for free but can`t figure out cheapest and easily available solution for scanning.


 

 What printer will you have and whats the resolution?


----------



## CoiL

Don`t know exactly yet the machine type but I believe it is enough for making CIEM shells


----------



## Farquarl

muzo2 said:


> Is its with professional equipment? Is the printer UV or abs/pla? Whats the resolution of scanner?


 
 No its not professional equipment, i wish i could uploade pictures to this forum 
  I built the 3d scanner with a modifed webcam and a beamer. The process is called structured light scanning and gives incredible detail and accuracy. Im using a simple FDM printer with ABS, i had doubts of this process being too inaccurate but the shells seal and with acetone vapor smoothing you get nice and glossy shells.
 Does anyone know how to get the rights to uplade pictures?


----------



## CoiL

farquarl said:


> *I built the 3d scanner with a modifed webcam and a beamer. *The process is called structured light scanning and gives incredible detail and accuracy. Im using a simple FDM printer with ABS...


 
 I want too know how to make one! Please upload pics to web pic posting sites somewhere and just post links here.


----------



## MuZo2

I think you need some minimum post to upload pics. But you can upload them somewhere else and add links for images.


----------



## MuZo2

coil said:


> I want too know how to make one! Please upload pics to web pic posting sites somewhere and just post links here.



Beamer will cost 500 Euro, search for David scanner and they have all info & forum.


----------



## Farquarl

muzo2 said:


> Beamer will cost 500 Euro, search for David scanner and they have all info


 
 You use evey beamer you want, i bought one of ebay for 50€
  
 https://picload.org/thumbnail/rrgarpid/img_20160618_151204.jpg
 https://picload.org/thumbnail/rrgarpio/img_20160618_151127.jpg
 https://picload.org/thumbnail/rrgarpic/img_20160618_151156.jpg
 https://picload.org/thumbnail/rrrllwpc/unbenannt.jpg
 https://picload.org/thumbnail/rrrllwpp/img_20160704_104448.jpg
 https://picload.org/thumbnail/rrrllwwg/img_20160704_103930.jpg
 https://picload.org/thumbnail/rrrllwwd/img_20160704_104435.jpg


----------



## Farquarl

muzo2 said:


> Beamer will cost 500 Euro, search for David scanner and they have all info & forum.



You can use every Beamer you like, i got mine from eBay for 50€


----------



## MuZo2

farquarl said:


> You can use every Beamer you like, i got mine from eBay for 50€



Would like to see results. I thought you need high resolution beamers.
Can you please share link to diy guide & also beamer you are using.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

There is a ton of information on how to use an Xbox 360 Kinect as a 3D scanner.

Problem with an extruder based printer is it's limited to filament which has limited colors. SLA is the way to go and you can build one called the "Chimera" for very cheap using a disc drive some extra parts and a dlp projector, and it's high resolution. You can use fotoplast as you medium as well. 

It would be perfect for shells!!

I started the build, just have never finished it.......... I think all the parts cost roughly $65-$70 to build it. 

Here is the link to how to build it: Chimera


----------



## MuZo2

I think none of above would be accurate for ciem.


----------



## Farquarl

muzo2 said:


> Would like to see results. I thought you need high resolution beamers.
> Can you please share link to diy guide & also beamer you are using.



I will Ina couple of minutes, but there is no diy Guide i can however tell you how I built it.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

muzo2 said:


> I think none of above would be accurate for ciem.




The hearing aid industry as well as the ciem industry uses sla/dlp printing to make shells. DLP projectors have a high amount of UV light, in fact they use a UV filter that you remove and it projects 435-500nm waves. The Chimera DIY printer the object is digitally sliced and each layer projected into the UV thus curing layer by layer. Extremely efficient and perfect for CIEM's. The 3D scanning can be done with the Xbox 360 Kinect (camera), tons of software and how to' son calibration and implementation in 3D printing. 

I ordered a synchronous motor to build a rotating cure table for my UV light for a more accurate cure, but could be used for a 3D scanner for In ear molds.


----------



## MuZo2

shilohsjustice said:


> The hearing aid industry as well as the ciem industry uses sla/dlp printing to make shells. DLP projectors have a high amount of UV light, in fact they use a UV filter that you remove and it projects 435-500nm waves. The Chimera DIY printer the object is digitally sliced and each layer projected into the UV thus curing layer by layer. Extremely efficient and perfect for CIEM's. The 3D scanning can be done with the Xbox 360 Kinect (camera), tons of software and how to' son calibration and implementation in 3D printing.
> 
> I ordered a synchronous motor to build a rotating cure table for my UV light for a more accurate cure, but could be used for a 3D scanner for In ear molds.


 

 Yes I know but I dont think they will be accurate enough. I work in CAD/CAM field for last 15 years and have supplied software to various industries including hearing aid and dental.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

So I had exceptional results with laser engraving, lots of possibilities including hundreds of fonts and sizes, endless picture or logo possibilities, however the unit has died, I guess I worked it to hard last night......... May it rest in peace!!!! I have requested a replacement laser diode which hopefully will come next week. Lol!!!! It was fun while it lasted. I still have high hopes and maybe I just had a bad unit.


----------



## MuZo2

Posting pictures on behalf of farquarl


----------



## CoiL

Wow, nice job! Now, could You please provide us with details how to make one and use one?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

muzo2 said:


> Yes I know but I dont think they will be accurate enough. I work in CAD/CAM field for last 15 years and have supplied software to various industries including hearing aid and dental.




Im confused as to what you think will be inaccurate? The printer or the 3D scanner? The samples on the site look extremely accurate, but I have not finished the build so I can't deny or confirm your theory. I will get to finishing the build one of these days, maybe, lol. 

I personally shelved the project because I find it extremely gratifying building the shells completely by hand. 

I wonder if Luke from Vibro labs is still on this thread, if so maybe he can chime in with some insight as he uses 3D printed shells for his CIEMs like the Aria.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

muzo2 said:


> Posting pictures on behalf of farquarl





Very very cool!!!! Awesome setup!!!!


----------



## Farquarl

muzo2 said:


> Posting pictures on behalf of farquarl


 
  
 Thank you for uploading!!!!


coil said:


> Wow, nice job! Now, could You please provide us with details how to make one and use one?


 
 Sure, i bought a 1280x768 dlp beamer of ebay for 50€ and a c270 logitech webcam. I designed and printed an adapter to mount an dslr lense infront of the webcam and also mount the webcam on a 20x20 aluminium profile. I use the david laserscanner software which is expensive 300-400€ but you can use opensource software or cheaper structured light software. With the help of an arduino microcontroler i have automated the process. I click start and a scan is done the software sends a string to the arduino which then turns the rotary table (Stepper motor) when the turn is done the next scan is triggered. This will continue until a 360° scan is complete. This scan must then be exportet to a different software to do the things you would normaly do with your hands. I use meshmixer which is great and doesn`t cost a penny. The complete 3D model is then imported by a slicer where i accomodate for the shrinkage of the ABS filament.
 And i thought about the chimera too, if you allready have the beamer why not use it for the printer too? A 1280x768 reolution should be accurate enough.


----------



## MuZo2

shilohsjustice said:


> Im confused as to what you think will be inaccurate? The printer or the 3D scanner? The samples on the site look extremely accurate, but I have not finished the build so I can't deny or confirm your theory. I will get to finishing the build one of these days, maybe, lol.
> 
> I personally shelved the project because I find it extremely gratifying building the shells completely by hand.
> 
> I wonder if Luke from Vibro labs is still on this thread, if so maybe he can chime in with some insight as he uses 3D printed shells for his CIEMs like the Aria.


 

 Both scanner and printer. Have you seen calibration process of those scanner and printers. For diy and artistic work the are ok but not for ciem.
 There are industrial SLA and DLP printers. DLP can be as low as 3000$ and can be good for small batches.
 Scanners can be costly. Dental and hearing aid scanners are in range of 10-15000 and they are lases scanners mostly.


----------



## Farquarl

muzo2 said:


> Both scanner and printer. Have you seen calibration process of those scanner and printers. For diy and artistic work the are ok but not for ciem.
> There are industrial SLA and DLP printers. DLP can be as low as 3000$ and can be good for small batches.
> Scanners can be costly. Dental and hearing aid scanners are in range of 10-15000 and they are lases scanners mostly.


 

 3Shape which supplied the scanner for Ultimate ears use structured light i think. And think about it when done by hand you dipp the impression in wax which isnt really accurate either!


----------



## Pete64

shilohsjustice said:


> So I had exceptional results with laser engraving, lots of possibilities including hundreds of fonts and sizes, endless picture or logo possibilities, however the unit has died, I guess I worked it to hard last night......... May it rest in peace!!!! I have requested a replacement laser diode which hopefully will come next week. Lol!!!! It was fun while it lasted. I still have high hopes and maybe I just had a bad unit.


 Well i read on aliexpress that this was a problem. Maybe it is because it ran to long? Someone also had trouble it did'nt stop at end positions? But how small can the fonts be? Half the size on the pic?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

farquarl said:


> Thank you for uploading!!!!
> Sure, i bought a 1280x768 dlp beamer of ebay for 50€ and a c270 logitech webcam. I designed and printed an adapter to mount an dslr lense infront of the webcam and also mount the webcam on a 20x20 aluminium profile. I use the david laserscanner software which is expensive 300-400€ but you can use opensource software or cheaper structured light software. With the help of an arduino microcontroler i have automated the process. I click start and a scan is done the software sends a string to the arduino which then turns the rotary table (Stepper motor) when the turn is done the next scan is triggered. This will continue until a 360° scan is complete. This scan must then be exportet to a different software to do the things you would normaly do with your hands. I use meshmixer which is great and doesn`t cost a penny. The complete 3D model is then imported by a slicer where i accomodate for the shrinkage of the ABS filament.
> And i thought about the chimera too, if you allready have the beamer why not use it for the printer too? A 1280x768 reolution should be accurate enough.




Great work, I bought the same printer from the chimera instructable. I also have the Arduino module as well as the stepper motor controller, only thing I have to do is build a frame and wire it up. 

You've re-inspired my interest!!


----------



## Shilohsjustice

pete64 said:


> Well i read on aliexpress that this was a problem. Maybe it is because it ran to long? Someone also had trouble it did'nt stop at end positions? But how small can the fonts be? Half the size on the pic?




Even smaller than half that size, I'm at work at the moment but will pull up the program when I get home. I'm actually very excited at the results. If anything the housing and setup with a better quality laser diode.


----------



## Sinzo

Guys, I've found some really, really cheap drivers on Taobao, like $1.50 for a CL.
  
 I've ordered them and I'll let you know how it turns out when I get them, and compare them to some actual Cl drivers.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

sinzo said:


> Guys, I've found some really, really cheap drivers on Taobao, like $1.50 for a CL.
> 
> I've ordered them and I'll let you know how it turns out when I get them, and compare them to some actual Cl drivers.




Can you post a link to them, is there an order minimum??


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Just curious if anyone has seen these before, or tried them out.


----------



## piotrus-g

shilohsjustice said:


> Just curious if anyone has seen these before, or tried them out.


 
 Ummm but you realize that was April fools joke, right?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

piotrus-g said:


> Ummm but you realize that was April fools joke, right?




Lol, several years in the making it fooled me. Hahaha, I'm tired was up to late playing with the laser!!!!


----------



## Farquarl

When I try to insert my impressions or the printed shells it is really difficult to get them in, almost painfull. After they are inserted everything is fine. How do I need to modify them?


----------



## MuZo2

Did you check, how to insert ciems. You have to twist while inserting.


----------



## Farquarl

muzo2 said:


> Did you check, how to insert ciems. You have to twist while inserting.



Ah i should have said that I know how to insert them.

Edit: Do you have to taper the tip? Where does the seal happen?


----------



## ForceMajeure

farquarl said:


> Ah i should have said that I know how to insert them.
> 
> Edit: Do you have to taper the tip? Where das the seal happen?


 
  
 Have  you trimmed your ear impressions with a dremel tool?
 Trimming them will make them easier for them to slide in and less painful, also it is recommended that you taper the ear canal tip past the second bend  so it doesn't tickle/ touch too much inside, it's kind of hard to explain.
  
 The thing is that after you have trimmed them correctly and after they are dipped in wax they should be smooth. You have to take into consideration that the wax layer added to the removed material during the trimming should be slightly less than what the original impression was. 
  
 The seal is made due to a combination of few parts but mainly the outer part of the impression that reside in the outer ear.
  
 I recommend you to watch a few vids regarding the trimming process. 
 Now if you scanned your impression then you should rectify/trim them digitally with software, but then you should only rectify them enough so they fit without wax being used meaning slightly smoothing them where the more sensitive parts are, making them rounder and easier on the ear.
  
 Look at those vids,


----------



## ForceMajeure

shilohsjustice said:


> Just curious if anyone has seen these before, or tried them out.


 
 I don't care if the red thing inside doesn't do anything, these just look too good.
 What is that red thing inductor/resistor? Makes me think of actually stuffing an CIEM with cool looking stuff just for the sake of it looking good.


----------



## MuZo2

Inductor.


----------



## ForceMajeure

Thanks


----------



## Farquarl

forcemajeure said:


> Have  you trimmed your ear impressions with a dremel tool?
> Trimming them will make them easier for them to slide in and less painful, also it is recommended that you taper the ear canal tip past the second bend  so it doesn't tickle/ touch too much inside, it's kind of hard to explain.
> 
> The thing is that after you have trimmed them correctly and after they are dipped in wax they should be smooth. You have to take into consideration that the wax layer added to the removed material during the trimming should be slightly less than what the original impression was.
> ...


 
 Hey thank you!
 I know the videos allready except the gear gods video which is pretty cool because it tells me that i´ve done everything the right way so far. I have found a huge tutorial which is really eye opening!
 http://www.hearingreview.com/2006/04/earmolds-and-hearing-aid-shells-a-tutorial/
  
 It has serveral parts and im not finished reading it. You guys have figured out how to do your shells but for me this is a really big help.


----------



## jbr1971

farquarl said:


> Hey thank you!
> I know the videos allready except the gear gods video which is pretty cool because it tells me that i´ve done everything the right way so far. I have found a huge tutorial which is really eye opening!
> http://www.hearingreview.com/2006/04/earmolds-and-hearing-aid-shells-a-tutorial/
> 
> It has serveral parts and im not finished reading it. You guys have figured out how to do your shells but for me this is a really big help.


 
  
 I just skimmed the article and was surprised to see the author's office is only a couple of miles from where I used to live. Small world.


----------



## Farquarl

jbr1971 said:


> I just skimmed the article and was surprised to see the author's office is only a couple of miles from where I used to live. Small world.


 

 You are right, small world!


----------



## Pete64

Im going to buy the containers for moulding negatives but im not sure what size to buy? There are two sizes 42X37 and 50X37, what do you use? So far i used modified plastic glasses but i think it would be better with a good container with the right size for optimal curing.


----------



## MuZo2

farquarl said:


> Hey thank you!
> I know the videos allready except the gear gods video which is pretty cool because it tells me that i´ve done everything the right way so far. I have found a huge tutorial which is really eye opening!
> http://www.hearingreview.com/2006/04/earmolds-and-hearing-aid-shells-a-tutorial/
> 
> It has serveral parts and im not finished reading it. You guys have figured out how to do your shells but for me this is a really big help.


 

 Here are some videos if you are interested
 https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEDAA973A77C4D87B
 https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL6790837DD27C7C23


----------



## Farquarl

muzo2 said:


> Here are some videos if you are interested
> https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEDAA973A77C4D87B
> https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL6790837DD27C7C23


 

 Uh great, everything you need to know.
 Appearently i have a steep ear canal which was the culprit of my insertion problems. Basically i need to push and turn upwards to insert the shell and not use the corcscrew movement which is recommended.


----------



## musiclife

muzo2 said:


> Here are some videos if you are interested
> https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEDAA973A77C4D87B
> https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL6790837DD27C7C23


 

 Nice thats exactly what i was looking for. Ah the power of youtube!


----------



## MuZo2

http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/ypJMT_rmPas/
http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/d1ZC2GQ9enU/
http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/CofSG0gPfbg/
http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/oFQsGpHGi4Q/?resourceId=0_06_02_99

 Very detailed info from ear mould making, negative generation, shell making and electronics.


----------



## Farquarl

I made it guys! i think i printed a near to perfect shell! Fits tight but not painfull and seals really good. Sadly my last DD died and i have only the GK´s left which i really dont want to play with right now considering the price. 
 On the topic of the accuracy, i have read alot about it in the tutorial i´ve posted and basically a 0,3mm wax layer around the shell gives the best seal and fit. This should put things in perspective, important is that the overall shape is mirrored.


----------



## CoiL

Pics pics pics!


----------



## sanekn

Hey guys,
  
 After some wax dipping I managed to do a silicone negatives, then did a shell with Lisa Pavelka uv gel and a nail drier. The method is working fine, final shell is solid, NO residues inside or outside of it!
  
 And what about the fit - well, it could be better, but it holds in the ear well, with enough pressure to insert them, I can get a good seal. Still, have some imperfections here and there and some sanding and polishing is needed to remove the matte texture of the wax (and some dipping imperfections...) But i mean, for the first ones its not that bad I guess.
  
 You can take a look here if you want 
  
https://1drv.ms/f/s!AlaNU_BRUDh3hd5UO0Sb8wdzy-wxtw
  
 I have a question still. Can I leave them shells hollow or fill it with uv gel and cure to make a solid block? 
  
 Cheers!


----------



## Farquarl

sanekn said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> After some wax dipping I managed to do a silicone negatives, then did a shell with Lisa Pavelka uv gel and a nail drier. The method is working fine, final shell is solid, NO residues inside or outside of it!
> 
> ...



Looks great! You can leave them hollow.


----------



## Pete64

sanekn said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> After some wax dipping I managed to do a silicone negatives, then did a shell with Lisa Pavelka uv gel and a nail drier. The method is working fine, final shell is solid, NO residues inside or outside of it!
> 
> ...


O

Looks really good! I did'nt sucess with Lisa Pavelkas resin, it did not cure for me in 6 mins, and after longer curing the canal was cured all the way but walls about 1 mm.


----------



## sanekn

Thank you mates! Pavelka stuff was 6 min for me and 2 small containers were enough! I used trollfactory silicone for molds like in the vidéo


----------



## Pete64

Yea i used the silicone to, i also got the Abdrucklack that works really great! It leaves an absolute glossy coating on the impressions.


----------



## Mython

333 pages... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
  
  
  
  
  
 Anyone in a helpful mood, today?:  http://www.head-fi.org/t/813266/iem-hard-acrylic-shell-cavity-benefits


----------



## Farquarl

mython said:


> 333 pages...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Looks like someone has this covered already


----------



## Mython

farquarl said:


> Looks like someone has this covered already


 
  
  
 Plenty of people here with more expertise on the matter than me


----------



## Sinzo

So I'm getting these cheap armatures (CLs) that I'm testing out shipped out from China today, I've got some photos of them from the warehouse who received the local package.
 I'll report back with testing against Mouser Armatures in a week or two.
  
 Here are the pictures of the armatures from the warehouse, seems fairly legit: http://imgur.com/a/dvgXO
  
 $10.50 for it all, product + local shipping to warehouse + international shipping for four CLs, hope it works out!
  
 Oh, and they don't look pre-used either. The solder pads on the images look unused, the litz cable fresh and the tip doesn't have any adhesive residue.


----------



## Farquarl

sinzo said:


> So I'm getting these cheap armatures (CLs) that I'm testing out shipped out from China today, I've got some photos of them from the warehouse who received the local package.
> I'll report back with testing against Mouser Armatures in a week or two.
> 
> Here are the pictures of the armatures from the warehouse, seems fairly legit: http://imgur.com/a/dvgXO
> ...


 

 Wow would be awesome 4 CL´s for 10$ shipped!!! Wish you best of luck.
  
 Update:
 Today i printed two new shells which failed 
 I tried to extend the printed canal a bit after the second bend, it does seal but is painfull to insert. I also run the printer too hot which resulted in not so pretty outcome but have a look yourselfs.


----------



## ForceMajeure

sinzo said:


> So I'm getting these cheap armatures (CLs) that I'm testing out shipped out from China today, I've got some photos of them from the warehouse who received the local package.
> I'll report back with testing against Mouser Armatures in a week or two.
> 
> Here are the pictures of the armatures from the warehouse, seems fairly legit: http://imgur.com/a/dvgXO
> ...


 
 Those CI drivers should have the same frequency responce as the CI 22955 drivers, the difference is that they have a lower impedance and the spout is on the side instead of the middle for the 22955.​ I am sure that they are working you shouldn't worry about that. Those drivers are quite resilient but I recommend you to check them on arrival.​  
here are the specs for them​ http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/knowles/CI-30120-A42/CI-30120-A42-ND/4903157 impedance 45ohm @1khz
 http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/knowles/CI-22955-000/423-1057-ND/703954 for the CI 22955 impedance at 68ohm @1khz


----------



## Shilohsjustice

ForceMajeure, congratulations on being the #5000 post!!!!!!


----------



## Shilohsjustice

When you have the day off work and you want to do something amazing!!!!!



It's going to be a good day!!


----------



## piotrus-g

shilohsjustice said:


> When you have the day off work and you want to do something amazing!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> It's going to be a good day!!


 
 That's how it starts next thing you know your 80m2 lab is too small


----------



## Shilohsjustice

piotrus-g said:


> That's how it starts next thing you know your 80m2 lab is too small




Lol, I would settle for that!!! Haha!!!


----------



## Shilohsjustice

I decided to step up on the laser purchase, I sent the other one back and purchase a 40w co2 laser. 

After spending the last few days reading about it I thought it would be a good investment as it has lots of upgradability opportunities. In fact most of it can be upgraded including to a DSP controlled unit. Those start at about $3000, but mine was only $325 shipped. The upgrade DSP kit is about another $300 so I will wait on that. 

This will allow me to do engravings as well as create some tools I could use to further develop my craft.



I will keep those interested posted as to how it works out. Will take a week to get here. It would be cool to do the engraving like Heir Audio does on the back side wall of there universals.


----------



## piotrus-g

40W is more than enough for engraving acrylic.


----------



## Squirg

Does anyone know if dental impression material is suitable for ear impressions?  
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/HEAVY-BODY-REGULAR-2-MINUTE-SET-PVS-SILICONE-IMPRESSION-CARTRIDGE-MATERIAL-4x50m-/252001354324?hash=item3aac738254:g:LawAAOSwDNdVhLII
  
 Thanks


----------



## Farquarl

squirg said:


> Does anyone know if dental impression material is suitable for ear impressions?
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/HEAVY-BODY-REGULAR-2-MINUTE-SET-PVS-SILICONE-IMPRESSION-CARTRIDGE-MATERIAL-4x50m-/252001354324?hash=item3aac738254:g:LawAAOSwDNdVhLII
> 
> Thanks


 

 You can use it but it has defenitly disadvantages!
 First, it is less viscous which is bad becaus it doesnt form pressure.
 Secondly, it shrinks more over time, so you have to make a shell instantly.
 The third disadvantage is that it isn´t as tough and can be bend.


----------



## Farquarl

shilohsjustice said:


> I decided to step up on the laser purchase, I sent the other one back and purchase a 40w co2 laser.
> 
> After spending the last few days reading about it I thought it would be a good investment as it has lots of upgradability opportunities. In fact most of it can be upgraded including to a DSP controlled unit. Those start at about $3000, but mine was only $325 shipped. The upgrade DSP kit is about another $300 so I will wait on that.
> 
> ...


 

 Haha awesome! i thought about buing one of these too but you can´t engrave metal with it. You can mark metal with a special paint and burn it in.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

farquarl said:


> Haha awesome! i thought about buing one of these too but you can´t engrave metal with it. You can mark metal with a special paint and burn it in.




It will mark anodized aluminum, I'm most interested to so see what I can do to shells!!! I have a few ideas that I've never seen before and want to try it out. Maybe I'll I'll be pull a first, or completely not, lol.


----------



## ForceMajeure

shilohsjustice said:


> ForceMajeure, congratulations on being the #5000 post!!!!!!


 
 Wooh Wooh  I hope that by the time this thread reach 10k  posts I will have done a Ciem that I am proud of.
  
 During the last week I have been tinkering with tuning sound. Boy that is a long process, especially the solder/ unsolder/ check freq response with mic/ place the driver in the dummy unit to put in my ear/ seal the inside with blue tack/ by then some of the soldering point fails and goes the process again....  it gets on my nerve I wish there a simpler way 
  
 I barely been able to check few configuration. Also i find that the Sonion 33AJ007i/9 has a nice bass "oomphs" I still need to do more comparison with CI drivers though.
 Is the Sonion 33AJ007i/9 the equivalent driver to Knowles HODVTEC ?


----------



## RockerzinhoBR

Hi guys, i am pretty new in the DIY IEM's world and actually this is my first post on the head fi. I have already read a big parcel of the the posts here, but i really have some bigs doubts that are freaking de out of me. I really appreciate if you guys that have more experience and knowledge awnser me on that, and i apologize for my english, i am braziliain and i dont have full control of the language ( by the way, the brazilian content and info about DIY IEM is nonexistent ).
  
 No more runaround, my first doubt is about plugs : I'm always looking for cost X benefit, and in the last weeks i'm looking for a good plug choice. I saw some IEM's with MMCX connector and some with 2 pin connector. Firstly i had chosen the MMCX one, but after some problems i changed my mind and i decided that 2 pin is the best choose for me. The problem is that the most commons MMCX female plugs are about 2$ per pair, and the 2 pin 0.78mm female plug are about 15$ per pair. Thats way to much expensive for me, and i did not found any 0.78mm cheaper. Theres the tf10 plugs that is about 8$ per pair, but they are 0.75mm. I dont know much about plugs, but i think thats a problem. The big parcel of 2 pin cables are made for 0.78mm, and i would like to use a 0.78mm female plug because i want cable that use 0.78mm male pins. What do you guys think ? Its really better the 0.78mm than the 0.75mm ? Or i'm just having some dumb thoughts ? I REALLY would appreciate if you guys introduce me into some cheap 0.78mm, because i really need that. I would like to hear some recommendation about mmcx female plugs also, if you guys like to. I will put the links of the 0.75mm and 0.78mm bellow, just to make de post more complete.

 0.78mm : 
  
 http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Female-Port-Socket-0-78mm-Earphone-Pins-Plug-For-DIY-Custom-JH-Audio-westone-W4r-1964/32669105506.html?spm=2114.13010308.0.48.sdkLes
  
 0.75mm  :
  
 http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Female-Port-Socket-0-75mm-Earphone-Pins-Plug-For-DIY-UE-tf10-UE7-UE5-UE18-Pro/32592999057.html?spm=2114.30010308.3.2.X6mH2E&ws_ab_test=searchweb201556_0,searchweb201602_5_10037_10017_301_407_10033_406_10032_10040,searchweb201603_8&btsid=6f978f71-54c4-45e8-bbc8-1c75aca019fc


----------



## CoiL

Guys, has any of You made custom IEM with triple dynamic drivers with crossovers?


----------



## piotrus-g

forcemajeure said:


> I barely been able to check few configuration. Also i find that the Sonion 33AJ007i/9 has a nice bass "oomphs" I still need to do more comparison with CI drivers though. Is the Sonion 33AJ007i/9 the equivalent driver to Knowles HODVTEC ?


 
 No. 33AJ007i/9 has tuned vent while HODVTEC has not. HODVTEC would be similar to 37AE007C/8
  
Also make note it's H(igh)O(utput)D(ual)V(ented)TEC which means it has improved output over normal DTEC.-> DTEC is equivalent to 3300 series and HODTEC is equivalent to 3700 from Sonion.


----------



## Farquarl

I've redesigned the shells and tweaked the printing Settings. Im very satisfied with the result, obviously the shells don't look as good as the Crystal clear one you guys make but I still like the appearance.


----------



## MuZo2

What thickness are the shells, any pics from inside?


----------



## CoiL

Can`t You use somekind of color additive for printing material? Very nice looking result btw. I wish I had the gear and know-how to make that gear for home printing/scanning station ;P


----------



## Farquarl

muzo2 said:


> What thickness are the shells, any pics from inside?



Wall thickness is 1.2 mm, i`ll make some pics of the inside when I'm home again.

Coil:
I could use a a different filament for color. Almost any color is avaible, even Glow in the dark


----------



## CoiL

farquarl said:


> I could use a a different filament for color. Almost any color is avaible, even Glow in the dark


 
 One thing is to use just different color filament but other thing is to mix up Your own tones  And I wouldn`t want to wear anything consisting phosphorous in my ears.


----------



## Farquarl

coil said:


> One thing is to use just different color filament but other thing is to mix up Your own tones  And I wouldn`t want to wear anything consisting phosphorous in my ears.


haha it's Phosphate which isn't dangerous  But you are right I wouldn't use non foodsave plastics either


----------



## CoiL

Thanks for correction, still, wouldn`t use anything "glowing" chemicals in my ears in contact with skin.


----------



## Farquarl

Im sorry I didn't want to Sound like a dick. Ofcourse using fdm based machines has a lot of drawbacks. But it is what's avaible for me at the moment.


----------



## Xymordos

The HODTECs (without vents) I tried doesn't seem to punch very hard. Think they suit better as mid drivers. They're really clear though.


----------



## ForceMajeure

piotrus-g said:


> No. 33AJ007i/9 has tuned vent while HODVTEC has not. HODVTEC would be similar to 37AE007C/8
> 
> Also make note it's H(igh)O(utput)D(ual)V(ented)TEC which means it has improved output over normal DTEC.-> DTEC is equivalent to 3300 series and HODTEC is equivalent to 3700 from Sonion.


 


xymordos said:


> The HODTECs (without vents) I tried doesn't seem to punch very hard. Think they suit better as mid drivers. They're really clear though.


 
  
 Thanks, yes you are right the sonion 33AJ007i/9 have a tiny small vent between the soldering pads. So if I understand correctly the 33AJ007i/9 is equivalent to the DTEC series but is vented.
 So far the sonion have nice bass with good punch oomphs (the vent is helping).
  
  
  
  


rockerzinhobr said:


> Hi guys, i am pretty new in the DIY IEM's world and actually this is my first post on the head fi. I have already read a big parcel of the the posts here, but i really have some bigs doubts that are freaking de out of me. I really appreciate if you guys that have more experience and knowledge awnser me on that, and i apologize for my english, i am braziliain and i dont have full control of the language ( by the way, the brazilian content and info about DIY IEM is nonexistent ).
> 
> No more runaround, my first doubt is about plugs : I'm always looking for cost X benefit, and in the last weeks i'm looking for a good plug choice. I saw some IEM's with MMCX connector and some with 2 pin connector. Firstly i had chosen the MMCX one, but after some problems i changed my mind and i decided that 2 pin is the best choose for me. The problem is that the most commons MMCX female plugs are about 2$ per pair, and the 2 pin 0.78mm female plug are about 15$ per pair. Thats way to much expensive for me, and i did not found any 0.78mm cheaper. Theres the tf10 plugs that is about 8$ per pair, but they are 0.75mm. I dont know much about plugs, but i think thats a problem. The big parcel of 2 pin cables are made for 0.78mm, and i would like to use a 0.78mm female plug because i want cable that use 0.78mm male pins. What do you guys think ? Its really better the 0.78mm than the 0.75mm ? Or i'm just having some dumb thoughts ? I REALLY would appreciate if you guys introduce me into some cheap 0.78mm, because i really need that. I would like to hear some recommendation about mmcx female plugs also, if you guys like to. I will put the links of the 0.75mm and 0.78mm bellow, just to make de post more complete.
> 
> ...


 
 If you are willing to try taobao you can find there 2pin .78mm quality connectors for ~2$/piece  
 Regarding the .75mm/.78mm there is not a big difference at all.
  
 One thing to consider is that those 2 pin types of connectors are tight fitting with the cable and sometimes it's difficult to push the cable inside. You can slightly enlarge the holes with a corresponding diameter kind of tool like tweezers. That's what I did on some of them that I bought, rotating the tweezers in the holes to make the cable easier to insert. or you could wait that the pins enlarges themselves with use.
  
 Some people prefer MMCX connector because they are easier to insert the cable (better if you intend to switch cables frequently), they also rotate so it is easier to insert CIEM attached to them. Their plus are also their cons as they develop connection issues over time making the sound cutting off. Usually the cable male connector itself will be the weakest link and loose tightness.
  
 On the other hand the 2 pins connectors are tightly fitting and have less chances of developing connection issues over time but sometimes the pins on the cables can break inside them, then you have no choice but to change the all plug, If the 2 pins connector gets too wide over time (by changing cable to frequently) then you will have difficulty keeping the cable attached. But again this happen after plugin/unplugging the cable many many times.
  
 There is no real winner here, it is a preference thing. Personally i have not enough experience over time with both plugin system to make a valid judgement.
  
 Regarding your english don't stress about it, most of the people here are not native english speaker (so am I) and learn over time.


----------



## Squirg

forcemajeure said:


> Wooh Wooh  I hope that by the time this thread reach 10k  posts I will have done a Ciem that I am proud of.
> 
> During the last week I have been tinkering with tuning sound. Boy that is a long process, especially the solder/ unsolder/ check freq response with mic/ place the driver in the dummy unit to put in my ear/ seal the inside with blue tack/ by then some of the soldering point fails and goes the process again....  it gets on my nerve I wish there a simpler way
> 
> ...


 
 From Sonion:
  For the most part… there are no exact Sonion to Knowles equivalents in pro audio… for the hearing aid world, some of them are close enough… but not for pro audio.  The ED29689 is very close (nearly identical) to our 2389.  As far as the others go… they are not equivalent.


----------



## piotrus-g

squirg said:


> From Sonion:
> For the most part… there are no exact Sonion to Knowles equivalents in pro audio… for the hearing aid world, some of them are close enough… but not for pro audio.  The ED29689 is very close (nearly identical) to our 2389.  As far as the others go… they are not equivalent.


 
 Well sort of, but they also probably take impedance into equation.
 Still f.e. Knowles ED-29689 and Sonion 2389 sound different form each other even though technically the seem as equivalent.


----------



## Squirg

Question on Glycerin:  How many times do you guys reuse it?  I notice that when curing shells, the glycerin gradually gets less thick and more runny.  It seems to do the job the same though.  How long before I should throw it out?
  
 Thanks


----------



## Shilohsjustice

squirg said:


> Question on Glycerin:  How many times do you guys reuse it?  I notice that when curing shells, the glycerin gradually gets less thick and more runny.  It seems to do the job the same though.  How long before I should throw it out?
> 
> Thanks




I use it until it begins to get cloudy or particles in it. I will cut it with new glycerin though to extend its life. I always pour it back into container put the lid on it and give it a good shake (Only if I'm done using it for the day). I have some glycerin I've been using for months.


----------



## RockerzinhoBR

forcemajeure said:


> Thanks, yes you are right the sonion 33AJ007i/9 have a tiny small vent between the soldering pads. So if I understand correctly the 33AJ007i/9 is equivalent to the DTEC series but is vented.
> So far the sonion have nice bass with good punch oomphs (the vent is helping).
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Brother, i REALLY appreciate that you did answer me. I thought nobody was going to do that. Really thanks.If is not too much to ask, can you send me the link for those cheap 2 pins ? I'm not accustomed to use the TAOBAO and i dont find the pins on the site. By the way, what drivers are you using in your IEM's ? do you have a good knowledge about crossover, right ? Thanks for the time.


----------



## ForceMajeure

rockerzinhobr said:


> Brother, i REALLY appreciate that you did answer me. I thought nobody was going to do that. Really thanks.If is not too much to ask, can you send me the link for those cheap 2 pins ? I'm not accustomed to use the TAOBAO and i dont find the pins on the site. By the way, what drivers are you using in your IEM's ? do you have a good knowledge about crossover, right ? Thanks for the time.


 
 here are a few links
 https://world.taobao.com/item/45035408983.htm?fromSite=main&spm=a312a.7700824.w4004-4802651417.17.TZa4rq
 https://world.taobao.com/item/524610992198.htm?spm=a312a.7700714.0.0.N3VhJa
 https://world.taobao.com/item/44241624390.htm?spm=a312a.7700714.0.0.N3VhJa#detail
  
 I recommend you to use a forwarding service if you don't have experience with taobao.
  
 I don't have enough experience with crossovers configuration to give you the "perfect sauce" for your iem, I am experimenting myself with different drivers and configuration now. All the basic knowledge can be found in this thread (though it's a bit long to read), the rest is trials and errors. The thing to remember is that less is more. If you can achieve a good sound using less complicated design the more chance that it will be better sounding because complicated design leads too sound phase issues.


----------



## RockerzinhoBR

Thanks. Like you said, i never bought in taobao. What about that '' forwarding service '' ? Can you say me more about this service ? 
 About your crossovers, what drivers are you using now ? I agree with you, less is more. I'm not looking for a super complex crossover, just 2 or 3 way.


----------



## RockerzinhoBR

Could you tell me how i can to convert the prices ? i just get lost with the values '' ¥ 25.00 ''. How can i put that into $ ? Thank you very much.


----------



## ForceMajeure

Forwarding service is a 3rd party site/ agent that you subscribe to and is in charge of making the orders for you, receive the package, and then send it too you for a small fee.
 You can use mistertao.com, paste the link from taobao there.
  
 If you are a novice you could buy premade crossover drivers from Knowles like the GK or GQ series.
 Here is a guide from Luke (Vibrolabs) http://diy.vibrolabs.com/pages/knowles-guide
  
 I don't know your knowledge about making CIEM but I really suggest you go over some basic info before buying supply, individual parts are not expensive but it quickly adds up...


----------



## RockerzinhoBR

Oh, i got it now. '' Forwarding service '' do the things for you. I got confused in the principle because out here we call this '' intermediary service '', so i thought that was another thing. 
 About CIEM's, i already know enough to make good pieces with premade crossovers, and thats why i ask you about manual crossover. Now i'm looking for some good info about the making process of real crossovers, nothing kinda complex, i just wanna know more about the basics concepts of the manual crossovers.


----------



## Sinzo

If you want cheap, safe bulk UV resin I found a dental source.
  
 http://dentala2z.co.uk/epages/eshop133027.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/eshop133027/Products/PRE10054


----------



## Farquarl

sinzo said:


> If you want cheap, safe bulk UV resin I found a dental source.
> 
> http://dentala2z.co.uk/epages/eshop133027.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/eshop133027/Products/PRE10054


 

 But this isn´t a UV resin is it?


----------



## Sinzo

Ah, ****. I saw acrylic and instantly thought UV.


----------



## RockerzinhoBR

Guys, what do you all think about this wire ? Its a good choice to make my CIEM cable ? If you all think its not a good wire, i would appreciate a recommendation, but not soo much expensive. 
  
 http://www.aliexpress.com/item/10m-Acrolink-Silver-Plated-6N-OCC-Signal-Teflon-Wire-Cable-0-12mm2-Dia-0-8mm-For/32231190428.html?spm=2114.10010108.1000014.26.tETgo8&scm=1007.13338.33346.0&pvid=e6233a6e-e5df-4b73-88df-e06920191f9a&tpp=1

 Thanks everybody, and sorry if i'm doing something wrong. I'm pretty new as a member.


----------



## Farquarl

rockerzinhobr said:


> Guys, what do you all think about this wire ? Its a good choice to make my CIEM cable ? If you all think its not a good wire, i would appreciate a recommendation, but not soo much expensive.
> 
> http://www.aliexpress.com/item/10m-Acrolink-Silver-Plated-6N-OCC-Signal-Teflon-Wire-Cable-0-12mm2-Dia-0-8mm-For/32231190428.html?spm=2114.10010108.1000014.26.tETgo8&scm=1007.13338.33346.0&pvid=e6233a6e-e5df-4b73-88df-e06920191f9a&tpp=1
> 
> ...



That's a good choice, however I would recommend just buying a finished cable from aliecpress.


----------



## RockerzinhoBR

Why should i buy a finished cable instead to make my own with that cable ? I want to put my own plugs in the cable, so i thought if i buy that cable and make the cable with the plugs of my choice i would have a better cable. If you recommend a ALI finished cable, what would be ?


----------



## Farquarl

Because there are finished cables with all the avaible Plugs. So you can still put your two Pin or mmcx Connector in and get a cable. 
If you enjoy making a cable than sure go for it.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Hello everyone, I have a very cheap little project to help with even curing under UV Light and Laquer coating. 

Self rotating arm/turntable. Serves 2 purposes, First to rotate and make shells with even exposure to light. 

Second, turntable can be pulled off and an arm/claw slid into it Rotating to disperse even coating of Laquer. 

I used a Synchronous Motor from Amazon -$6.27 
Old box - free
Arm from helping hand solder stand - free
2 twist ties from bread bag
Old plug that was laying around. 

Turntable:
I used a CD and Bouncy ball from my kids room. 






I painted the turntable so will post pics once it dries.


----------



## Shilohsjustice




----------



## Farquarl

Great work!
 I like it when you can use a project for different purposes.


----------



## RockerzinhoBR

Guys, i was making a search on TAOBAO for my projects and i found some really interesting things. 
 What about those '' lou's '' speaker ? 
  
 https://world.taobao.com/item/38126912502.htm?spm=a312a.7728556.201601086188259.4.diiK5z&scm=1007.12679.24488.38126912502

 They are ridiculously cheap, but is not clear to me if they are legit knowles speakers or just a chinese copy. Can someone help me on that ?


----------



## Squirg

Hey Guys! Christmas in July at my house!  I just got in a box of Sonion drivers!!!  Eric H. is the Man!  I got 2015, 2389, 1723wt03/9, 1723wt03, 381m007mi/8a, and 26-e25wt02/9.  I am actually overwhelmed.  In the past, I have researched the drivers (Knowles) and ordered exactly what I wanted.  Now I have a pile of drivers and have to start from scratch...oh, the horror!   The only ones I have played with so far are the 1723's and they sound incredible by themselves!  
  
 Question, the 3800's have 4 solder pads and there doesn't seem to be anything connecting the 2 drivers.  Do I need to connect them or are they internally connected somehow?
  
 Also, what are some good "Sonion only" designs using these drivers?  I'd really like to incorporate the 3800 because I have never played with a vented driver.  And, I am a drummer and need heavy LF (and I just like it).  I'd like to keep the crossover fairly simple.
  
 Thanks HFers!


----------



## Farquarl

squirg said:


> Hey Guys! Christmas in July at my house!  I just got in a box of Sonion drivers!!!  Eric H. is the Man!  I got 2015, 2389, 1723wt03/9, 1723wt03, 381m007mi/8a, and 26-e25wt02/9.  I am actually overwhelmed.  In the past, I have researched the drivers (Knowles) and ordered exactly what I wanted.  Now I have a pile of drivers and have to start from scratch...oh, the horror!   The only ones I have played with so far are the 1723's and they sound incredible by themselves!
> 
> Question, the 3800's have 4 solder pads and there doesn't seem to be anything connecting the 2 drivers.  Do I need to connect them or are they internally connected somehow?
> 
> ...




https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jguxmYfEmZdHEGIUDvQUnfm3vhxo51WeNKKG0_oRtMA/pub?gid=0

I don't know if you are familiar with this list. But there should be plenty of ideas on how to configure them.


----------



## Secondoprimera

Does anybody here know what type of wire used for crossover and internal wiring?


----------



## Farquarl

secondoprimera said:


> Does anybody here know what type of wire used for crossover and internal wiring?



Braied litz (the type of wire you find in earphones cable)


----------



## raptor18

squirg said:


> Hey Guys! Christmas in July at my house!  I just got in a box of Sonion drivers!!!  Eric H. is the Man!  I got 2015, 2389, 1723wt03/9, 1723wt03, 381m007mi/8a, and 26-e25wt02/9.  I am actually overwhelmed.  In the past, I have researched the drivers (Knowles) and ordered exactly what I wanted.  Now I have a pile of drivers and have to start from scratch...oh, the horror!   The only ones I have played with so far are the 1723's and they sound incredible by themselves!
> 
> Question, the 3800's have 4 solder pads and there doesn't seem to be anything connecting the 2 drivers.  Do I need to connect them or are they internally connected somehow?
> 
> ...


 
  
 http://www.sonion.com/Products/Transducers/Receivers/~/media/Files/Products/Application%20Notes/Transducers/Wiring%20of%20dual%20receivers_AN_rev002.ashx


----------



## Squirg

farquarl said:


> Braied litz (the type of wire you find in earphones cable)


 
 I know this has been talked about before but, I am having a hard time soldering Litz wire taken from other headphones.  I've salvaged wire from many different ear buds and it all repels solder like I repel beautiful women...
  
 I am burning off the coating, but still no connection.  Any tips?


----------



## Secondoprimera

How did you burn off the coating? Using torch? 
I've seen video by vibrolabs guys in youtube and they're saying that they use solder heat to remove the coating in the desired location.
CMIIW


----------



## Farquarl

squirg said:


> I know this has been talked about before but, I am having a hard time soldering Litz wire taken from other headphones.  I've salvaged wire from many different ear buds and it all repels solder like I repel beautiful women...
> 
> I am burning off the coating, but still no connection.  Any tips?







secondoprimera said:


> How did you burn off the coating? Using torch?
> I've seen video by vibrolabs guys in youtube and they're saying that they use solder heat to remove the coating in the desired location.
> CMIIW



Using the folder iron worked really well for me. Heat it up and melt some solder on the tip now clean your desired Spot frommthe lacquer.


----------



## ForceMajeure

shilohsjustice said:


>


 
 NIce work. I just saw that this was actually a thing https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1z10.3-c.w4002-4748496119.43.QH7A6h&id=531656834597  Egger one cost around 370$ !
  
  


rockerzinhobr said:


> Guys, i was making a search on TAOBAO for my projects and i found some really interesting things.
> What about those '' lou's '' speaker ?
> 
> https://world.taobao.com/item/38126912502.htm?spm=a312a.7728556.201601086188259.4.diiK5z&scm=1007.12679.24488.38126912502
> ...


 
 Yes "lou" is the way google translate Knowles. These are usually legit but not always new (sometimes they are salvaged from hearing aids or other CIEMS), also some drivers worth more than others.
  


squirg said:


> I know this has been talked about before but, I am having a hard time soldering Litz wire taken from other headphones.  I've salvaged wire from many different ear buds and it all repels solder like I repel beautiful women...
> 
> I am burning off the coating, but still no connection.  Any tips?


 
 I had the same problem on some old "Sharp" branded earbuds wire, they were bad quality, other wire where better. I also have some difficulty soldering the wire properly while testing different drivers configurations. Often they detached, in fact it was a bad week for me as I had the solder pads disconnect from 2 different TWFK drivers ! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 I tried to attach longer wires (this time there were the kind of wire that retain there shape, one inner piece, not litz) to one TWFK so I could connect them to a bread board. Thought the "construction" was light they put too much force on the pads and they disconnected from the FK part.
  
 Another driver got wrecked because I soldered it for too long because the wire wouldn't attach to the pads, though I used helping hands to transfer the heat and pause between different attempts. Lesson learned!


----------



## audiofreakie

ED29689, 27 Ohm resistor, aftermarket universal housing.


----------



## ForceMajeure

coil said:


> Guys, has any of You made custom IEM with triple dynamic drivers with crossovers?


 
 Edited part apparently the pictures I posted belong to a 3rd party that was banned from headfi.
  


audiofreakie said:


> ED29689, 27 Ohm resistor, aftermarket universal housing.


  

 Nice! how do they sound? Did you use a damper? Did you use a  soundtube or do they fit directly into the nozzle?
 I am also curious, have you heard the Etymotic Er4 to compare?


----------



## CoiL

forcemajeure said:


> coil said:
> 
> 
> > Guys, has any of You made custom IEM with triple dynamic drivers with crossovers?
> ...


 
 Wow! That seems really nice job and hopefully sounds great also! ANy more info about this particular CIEM?


----------



## ForceMajeure

Edited part apparently the links I posted belong to a 3rd party that was banned from headfi.


----------



## piotrus-g

Well I think since they've been banned here on head-fi I don't think you can post links to their webiste. Please correct me if I'm wrong.


----------



## ForceMajeure

I don't even know who they are, now you tell me they are banned well... I will delete the links for precaution.
 How do we even know who is banned and who is not on headfi, Is there a list or something?


----------



## CoiL

Thanks anyway, reverse image search seems to help anyway...


----------



## audiofreakie

forcemajeure said:


> Edited part apparently the pictures I posted belong to a 3rd party that was banned from headfi.
> 
> Nice! how do they sound? Did you use a damper? Did you use a  soundtube or do they fit directly into the nozzle?
> I am also curious, have you heard the Etymotic Er4 to compare?




Sounds good, I put orange damper directly to the driver output and apply 3mm clear heatshrink (after heating it shrink to 1-1.5mm, fit perfectly to the damper and driver, and magicly fit perfect in iem noozle) as a accoustic tube.
I own couple ER4P in past, afaik, this driver sound familiar to me, more bassy than ER4P (because the orange damper).


----------



## piotrus-g

forcemajeure said:


> How do we even know who is banned and who is not on headfi, Is there a list or something?


 
 I remember the drama 
   
[Edit3]

 Apparently discussing bans got other threads locked, we don't need that, hence edit. Quick google search will answer your questions


----------



## ForceMajeure

audiofreakie said:


> Sounds good, I put orange damper directly to the driver output and apply 3mm clear heatshrink (after heating it shrink to 1-1.5mm, fit perfectly to the damper and driver, and magicly fit perfect in iem noozle) as a accoustic tube.
> I own couple ER4P in past, afaik, this driver sound familiar to me, more bassy than ER4P (because the orange damper).


 
 Nice, today I played with the ED drivers and various dampers in a dummy CIEM shell, I never heard the er4p before.
 It have very good tonality I tried with green damper and tube length of 10mm placing the damper at the extremity, it was good sounding the bass was ever so slightly lacking but so far so good. I found that the soundstage was a bit small but the separation was good.
 if there was more space between instruments and the soundstage was larger also a bit more sub bass It would be very very good.


----------



## sanekn

Hey guys, I've kinda finished the test fit of it all...
  
 Just assembled everything together and tested. Well, when the seal is good - stuff sounds simply amazing (no dampers tho, but i like it this way). The problem is - seal is not that awesome when I just simply corkscrew them iems into my ears, I have to push them a little to have it. Thought about making a little recess around the end and fill it with some silicony style material (or tear down one of the tips of my girllfriend's uiems...).
  
 But anyway, need to cap it up (macassar ebony will fit them awesomly I think), sand it smooth and buff it out and we could call it a day!
  
 They are not pretty or anything, but you know, my first ones, next ones will be sexy as hell I hope haha.
  
 If anyone is interested of pics, you can take a look here :
  
https://1drv.ms/f/s!AlaNU_BRUDh3hoh-x_oC6J4IJ7AloQ
  
 Thank you guys for all the information and motivation, I needed it.
  
 Tomorrow the finish  Pics will follow


----------



## Farquarl

sanekn said:


> Hey guys, I've kinda finished the test fit of it all...
> 
> Just assembled everything together and tested. Well, when the seal is good - stuff sounds simply amazing (no dampers tho, but i like it this way). The problem is - seal is not that awesome when I just simply corkscrew them iems into my ears, I have to push them a little to have it. Thought about making a little recess around the end and fill it with some silicony style material (or tear down one of the tips of my girllfriend's uiems...).
> 
> ...


 

 Awesome! I noticed you choose the GK´s as well, i think they are a great choice for beginners.
  Looking forward to the finished ciem.


----------



## audiofreakie

forcemajeure said:


> Nice, today I played with the ED drivers and various dampers in a dummy CIEM shell, I never heard the er4p before.
> It have very good tonality I tried with green damper and tube length of 10mm placing the damper at the extremity, it was good sounding the bass was ever so slightly lacking but so far so good. I found that the soundstage was a bit small but the separation was good.
> if there was more space between instruments and the soundstage was larger also a bit more sub bass It would be very very good.



You should try Fitear 111, its used ED29689 and green damper. But suyama tune it "warmer" than ER4 with good bass and impact.


----------



## sanekn

Finished ciems! Damn bubbles came under the finish layer of pavelka stuff...
  
 https://1drv.ms/f/s!AlaNU_BRUDh3hpNUiV4tYQmTnFnPxA
  
 Cheers!


----------



## Farquarl

sanekn said:


> Finished ciems! Damn bubbles came under the finish layer of pavelka stuff...
> 
> https://1drv.ms/f/s!AlaNU_BRUDh3hpNUiV4tYQmTnFnPxA
> 
> Cheers!


 

 AWESOME! That with the bubbles is unfortunate but they still look really good.


----------



## sanekn

Thanx mate!


----------



## RockerzinhoBR

This hurts to read, man. And i know you pain. Some weeks ago i was soldering a pair of CI 30120 and out of the blue one of the solder pads came out. I freaked out, dude. I had just one pair to make a provisory pair of earbuds to use until my new lot of BA's doenst arrive, and they broke. Is that common, bro ? I'm pretty new in this hobby and you make my afraid, my new lots of BA's are on the way and now i have deep fear to break them all. Have you some tip to not broke them easily ?


----------



## RockerzinhoBR

Guys, i found some real cheap pairs of Knowles BA's. I bought a pair of EF 30037, a pair of ED 26784 and a pair of CI 30120. What do you all think ? I was planing to crossover the 26784 and the 30120 using the same desing that i used with the 22955+29689 (green damper for the CI and WHITE damper for the ED). I know that they are diffent drivers, but the 30120 have a sound pretty close to the 22955, and i thought something interesting would happen.
 About the EF 30037, i heard that they are good full range drivers. What you all think about it ? I will test then as a single driver with a RED damper, and see if they are competent as a full range single speaker with a good cost x benefit. 
 Thanks you all for the reply and time.


----------



## Furco

Really makes you appreciated the finish that the pro's can consistently achieve with their builds. 

A finished and functioning pair of CIEMs is a huge achievement. Great job.




sanekn said:


> Finished ciems! Damn bubbles came under the finish layer of pavelka stuff...
> 
> https://1drv.ms/f/s!AlaNU_BRUDh3hpNUiV4tYQmTnFnPxA
> 
> Cheers!


----------



## sanekn

Thank you friend!


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Hello everyone, I wanted to update on my laser adventure. As stated before I was looking for something the engrave graphics and serial numbers on IEM's. 

I had all day today playing around with it and finally found a mix that works. 

Here are a few pics. 









The colorant is actual UV marking material.


----------



## Furco

What??!?? That is so cool!!


----------



## Shilohsjustice

furco said:


> What??!?? That is so cool!!




Thank you!


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Here is another experiment, I created a clear fotoplast face plate blank, laser engraved the tree, then filled with red fotoplast. I'm pretty excited about the possibilities.


----------



## MuZo2

You are ready to go pro.


----------



## ForceMajeure

shilohsjustice said:


> Hello everyone, I wanted to update on my laser adventure. As stated before I was looking for something the engrave graphics and serial numbers on IEM's.
> 
> I had all day today playing around with it and finally found a mix that works.
> 
> ...


 
 What do you mean by UV marking material?
  
 I have a question about the GK-31732-000 drivers.
 before I completely broke 2 TWFK  I tried to make a GK with a CI and a crossover. from what I was able to hear it sounded good!
 Now I want to be sure about the crossover I made. Is it a simple resistor 4.7ohm in series with the CI and a High pass filter using only a 22uf cap to the TWFK?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

forcemajeure said:


> What do you mean by UV marking material?
> 
> I have a question about the GK-31732-000 drivers.
> before I completely broke 2 TWFK  I tried to make a GK with a CI and a crossover. from what I was able to hear it sounded good!
> Now I want to be sure about the crossover I made. Is it a simple resistor 4.7ohm in series with the CI and a High pass filter using only a 22uf cap to the TWFK?




It is UV curable marking material, it's the same as the IEM industry uses to mark serial numbers on CIEMs and hearing aid shells. Comes in red, white, and blue. 

I don't remember the values but yes that is correct, the GK uses a simple crossover. Resistor to CI and Cap to the TWFK, your values sound about right. I called knowles a long time ago and stated I was an audio engineer repairing a GK and they gave me the values of both the resistor and cap. I'm sure if you called them they would do the same.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

I like the sound of a 22uf cap on a twfk, I'm pretty sure that's what UE uses in several of there configs including the UE900.


----------



## ForceMajeure

shilohsjustice said:


> It is UV curable marking material, it's the same as the IEM industry uses to mark serial numbers on CIEMs and hearing aid shells. Comes in red, white, and blue.


 
 Does it have a thinner consistency than regular fotoplast?
 Do you have a link for it?
  
 I like the "tree" design, though at first it looked to me like "deer horn art".
 Were you able to use the laser on the clear fotoplast directly?  
  
 By the way the laser engraver is huge not so much diy level anymore


----------



## Shilohsjustice

forcemajeure said:


> Does it have a thinner consistency than regular fotoplast?
> Do you have a link for it?
> 
> I like the "tree" design, though at first it looked to me like "deer horn art".
> ...




The marking material is thicker than fotoplast, it's not really a runny material. I bought from Warner-tech care and you have to have an account with them. I registered and they gave me an account no questions asked. 

It cuts through the clear fotoplast with no problems whatsoever. 

I seen a recent video of UE and they use a laser for there custom art and acrylic paint, (I did not know they did that this was the first video I have seen where it showed this technique. It was a recent video within the last month) then clear uv acrylic over that obviously. Same process I did for the tree without me knowing how!! I was pleasantly surprised, in the video they also confirmed the only color they 3D print is clear, any other color is made by hand which I thought interesting. The machine appears to be big but it's a hunk of metal!!!! It was $325 shipped so not to expensive in the scheme of things. I will tell you there was a set of pliers left in it and wires not connected from the factory but after I realigned all the mirrors and calibrated it, it has certainly impressed me.

I will send you a pic of the uv marking tube. Depending where you are you can private message me and We can see about getting you some.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Here is a screen capture of the uv marking paint. Honestly I'm going to try acrylic paint out to see how that works, it's more readily available.


----------



## ForceMajeure

Thanks for all the info!
  
 By the way as I am searching for drivers to buy on taobao and aliexpress including various DD, I found something interesting. 
  
 After talking to various sellers, apparently there is a TWFK BA clone made by a chinese manufacturer that can be found on taobao named .."*.domestic *lou driver"...(lou is usualy the chinese name for knowles).
 It goes for around 13$/piece, have the same sound characteristic and electric properties. I am pretty sure they are quite good but QC control and matching might not be on par...
 Anyway just so you be aware. As far as I know most of Knowles driver that are sold in China are manufactured in Malaysia. These one are mad in China (I don't know the manufaturer yet).
 IMO It might worth checking, I am also sure that many new DIY IEMS sold from China recently uses them.
  

  
 On another somewhat related subject I have a question regarding wiring.
 There is a variant TWFK numbered 31749 that have a cap already solderded to both of the positive pads
 
  
 Now usually if I want to use both fk and wbfk part i need to solder a positive wire to both positive pads on the twfk and only one negative wire to the negative pads (as the negative are already connected) right?
  
 But now I see that with the cap soldered, only one positive connection is made. Does it mean that the cap is working as an High pass Filter for *both *drivers of the caped TWFK and only one positive wire is necessary? Because a cap is an AC component in an AC circuit as long as both positive pads are connected only one wire is required to make the HPF work for both drivers?
 I am a bit confused...


----------



## Pete64

From what i can in see in the picture the caped drivers must have another wire underneath the cap? Otherwise only the upper driver is connected at all and the cap will have no affect. If there is a wire underneath the cap, their both connected but only the lower will have a filter by the cap. ( hope im right ) Anyway that's what i can see from the picture.


----------



## RockerzinhoBR

Guys, those '' domestic lou's '' really exist. I already found some of them on taobao, and the seller said that they have permission of knowles to make the exactly same speaker with same sound and properties. I'm pretty curious to know if they actually sound the same as the real ones.


----------



## ForceMajeure

pete64 said:


> From what i can in see in the picture the caped drivers *must have another wire underneath the cap*? Otherwise only the upper driver is connected at all and the cap will have no affect.* If there is a wire underneath the cap, their both connected but only the lower will have a filter by the cap*. ( hope im right ) Anyway that's what i can see from the picture.


 
 Yes all TWFK have both negative pads connected by a small wire so you only need to solder one wire for the negative.
 That is what I am trying to figure out what part of the TWFK actually benefit of this cap. 
 maybe because a cap is an Alternative Current component both driver get the HP filter and only one positive wire need to be soldered to one positive pad.


----------



## piotrus-g

forcemajeure said:


> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Drivers are made by comapny named Estron (different Estron) I posted measurments of both TWFK and those replicas some pages back.
  
 RE TWFK31749 - there's a wire connecting both negative pads together under the cap.


> Does it mean that the cap is working as an High pass Filter for *both *drivers of the caped TWFK and only one positive wire is necessary?


 
 No, if you connect positive wire to woofer you'll get a high pass on tweeter, if you connect another cap before woofer you'll get 2nd order crossover on tweeter.


----------



## ForceMajeure

piotrus-g said:


> Drivers are made by comapny named Estron (different Estron) I posted measurments of both TWFK and those replicas some pages back.


 
 I remember something 
  
 Ahh found it 
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/430688/home-made-iems/4725#post_12589235
 known as ESC210C30017. calsanmicro announced it 
 there seem to be another company maybe the same company named as Shenzen estron called Shenzen Bellsing that have the same driver under the name BRC210C30017
 This is the equivalent driver that Shenzen Estron have of various drivers
  

Estron TransducerKnowles TransducerSonion TransducerESC330 SeriesFH SeriesN/AESC370 SeriesHC Series2600 SeriesESC530 SereisED Series2300 SeriesESC230 SeriesFJ SeriesN/A  ESC210 SeriesTWFK SeriesN/A  ESC305 SereisWBFK SeriesN/A  
  
  
 http://szestron.en.alibaba.com/product/60315777654-803344046/Dual_Balanced_Armature_Earphone_Driver_For_Armature_Headphones.html
 http://bellsing.en.alibaba.com/productgrouplist-802844269/Receiver_Speaker.html
  
@piotrus-g Have you tried them?


----------



## ForceMajeure

piotrus-g said:


> No, if you connect positive wire to woofer you'll get a high pass on tweeter, if you connect another cap before woofer you'll get 2nd order crossover on tweeter.


 
 So you say if I connect the twfk this way

  
 The woofer will receive current and will act regularly and the FK (tweeter) will have a High Pass filter (if so that's what I thought at the beginning but got confused)
  
 If I add another cap to the positive wire (above pic) then I will have 1st order HP filter for the woofer and a 2nd order HP filter to the tweeter?


----------



## piotrus-g

forcemajeure said:


> So you say if I connect the twfk this way
> 
> 
> The woofer will receive current and will act regularly and the FK (tweeter) will have a High Pass filter (if so that's what I thought at the beginning but got confused)
> ...


 
 That's correct.
  


> @piotrus-g Have you tried them?


 
 You mean listening to them? no.


----------



## audiofreakie

I surfing around and find interesting driver from aliexpress. Here some pics from the seller homepage (store page).
Credit, this pics not taken by me.


----------



## piotrus-g

Interesting! It's like a DD+BA hybrid unit in one housing!
  
 BTW. I only wanted to metion that rep for Bellsing (Estron?) contacted me after noticing my post here re their TWFK-like driver - I must say I'm impressed! To think that BA manufacturer is watching over this thread? I think it really proves how important this thread is


----------



## CoiL

audiofreakie said:


> I surfing around and find interesting driver from aliexpress. Here some pics from the seller homepage (store page).
> Credit, this pics not taken by me.
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Can You please share link to that in here or in PM ? I have no idea how is their FR but would be nice to use it for my custom full-wood CIEM test version


----------



## MuZo2

piotrus-g said:


> Interesting! It's like a DD+BA hybrid unit in one housing!
> 
> BTW. I only wanted to metion that rep for Bellsing (Estron?) contacted me after noticing my post here re their TWFK-like driver - I must say I'm impressed! To think that BA manufacturer is watching over this thread? I think it really proves how important this thread is



I got mail from them when I visited the website link which was posted here. Good news is we can buy in small quality and paypal option is available.


----------



## audiofreakie

coil said:


> Can You please share link to that in here or in PM ? I have no idea how is their FR but would be nice to use it for my custom full-wood CIEM test version



S





coil said:


> Can You please share link to that in here or in PM ? I have no idea how is their FR but would be nice to use it for my custom full-wood CIEM test version



Sure:
http://m.aliexpress.com/item/32602167794.html


----------



## MuZo2




----------



## Squirg

Hey Guys.  Can I get some help purchasing capacitors?  Up till now, I have been making CIEM's using single drivers or turnkey solutions like GK, GQ, and Accupass.  I want to start experimenting with multiple driver combinations and crossovers.  I have a good assortment of resistors but caps are driving me nuts!  I've been looking on Mouser, but there are so many diff. values I'm going cross-eyed.  I think the main question I have is:  What voltage/temp rating do I need?   Is there a kit or bundle that has a few of everything I need?  I'd like to stick to ebay because I have some paypal money to burn...  
  
 Would this get me started?
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/301697166382
  
 Thanks!!!


----------



## ForceMajeure

squirg said:


> Hey Guys.  Can I get some help purchasing capacitors?  Up till now, I have been making CIEM's using single drivers or turnkey solutions like GK, GQ, and Accupass.  I want to start experimenting with multiple driver combinations and crossovers.  I have a good assortment of resistors but caps are driving me nuts!  I've been looking on Mouser, but there are so many diff. values I'm going cross-eyed.  I think the main question I have is:  What voltage/temp rating do I need?   Is there a kit or bundle that has a few of everything I need?  I'd like to stick to ebay because I have some paypal money to burn...
> 
> Would this get me started?
> 
> ...


 
 I bought a similar kit on aliexpress those were the values I got
The value list:

0805 6.3V 10UF P type1206 25V 1UF A type0805 6.3V 22UF P type1206 16V 22UF A type1206 16V 10UF A type1206 10V 22UF A type1206 16V 2.2UF A type1206 10V 10UF A type1206 16V 4.7UF A type1206 10V 4.7UF A type1206 25V 10UF A type1206 6.3V 47UF A type
  
  
 I think it's the same seller on ebay


----------



## omgflyingbanana

Are these listings for the CI-22955 and the ED-29689 on Aliexpress legit?


----------



## ForceMajeure

omgflyingbanana said:


> Are these listings for the CI-22955 and the ED-29689 on Aliexpress legit?


 
 completely legit.
 Soundlink is one of the biggest distributors of hearing aid supply in china. They are official suppliers for Knowles products and other stuff.
 I talked to Grace in the chat not so long a go before buying things from them, she is very helpful you shouldn't be worry at all.


----------



## omgflyingbanana

Cool, thank you! The prices do seem cheaper (slightly) than Digikey's, if you're willing to stomach the relatively long shipping times.


----------



## Farquarl

omgflyingbanana said:


> Are these listings for the CI-22955 and the ED-29689 on Aliexpress legit?



Soundlink is really awesome their customer service is the best I've come across.


----------



## Farquarl

Im sorry for the doublepost but i just had to show off my finsihed pair of ciem.

  

  
 The seal and comfort are great the GK produces much more bass than i initially thought. I dont know if i like the red dampe in front of the tfwk though. The sound and resolution is really really great! I only now noticed that some of the songs i listen to are vynil recordings.
 Im so happy that it worked out, i was not sure if the printer would be accurate enough but in the end all the frustration and hour i put in paid off.
 Thank you guys and girls alot! Without you this project would not have been possible.


----------



## MuZo2

Did you try green damper on TWFK?


----------



## Farquarl

muzo2 said:


> Did you try green damper on TWFK?


I did not, i just ordered the red one because it was recommended by vibrolabs. I didn't want to get into all the different driver and damper setups because the whole scanning and 3D printing thing was enoguh on its own. Does the green one allow a bit more treble?


----------



## MuZo2




----------



## Farquarl

Oh good! Im going to try out various dampers and drivers in my next Design.
Thanks for the good reference.


----------



## omgflyingbanana

farquarl said:


> Does the green one allow a bit more treble?


 
 Yup, the green ones are 1500 ohms
  
 while the red ones are 2200 ohms.
  
 I found this reference to be extremely helpful: (EDIT: wow someone beat me to it. That was fast! 2 minutes too late.)


----------



## ForceMajeure

@Farquarl Awesome job!
 How long were the tube you used and what diameter?
 Also did you use a damper for the CI?
 What is that cable and how do you find it (soft, flexible, microphonics)?


----------



## raptor18

I'm still having difficulties trying to get a damper inside a 1,5 mm ID sound tube. I got a tip to buy this special tool to do it. I got something similar but i'm still far away.
  
 I really want to do this, so this will be my main task to solve soon. I've halted the hobby over our summer times.


----------



## Xymordos

Does anyone know where to get that switch used on the Aether and Vision Ears VE6? I'd like to try switching between different tunings but I can't seem to find it on mouser.


----------



## MuZo2

I think they are from hearing aids, so knowles should have them.


----------



## Xymordos

muzo2 said:


> I think they are from hearing aids, so knowles should have them.


 
 Thank you so much! I'm gonna go take a look at them.


----------



## ForceMajeure

xymordos said:


> Does anyone know where to get that switch used on the Aether and Vision Ears VE6? I'd like to try switching between different tunings but I can't seem to find it on mouser.


 
 http://www.sonion.com/Products/Micro%20Mechanicals/Switches/~/media/Files/Products/Data%20Sheets/Electromechanicals/Switches/SW%2096_DS_rev011.ashx
  
 Did you receive my private msg?


----------



## ForceMajeure

raptor18 said:


> I'm still having difficulties trying to get a damper inside a 1,5 mm ID sound tube. I got a tip to buy this special tool to do it. I got something similar but i'm still far away.
> 
> I really want to do this, so this will be my main task to solve soon. I've halted the hobby over our summer times.


 
 I think it would be easier to use shrinking tubing.
 I also know that knowles have different diameter dampers though I don't know how easy it would be to acquire them.
  
 Did you try heating the tube slightly?


----------



## MuZo2

xymordos said:


> Thank you so much! I'm gonna go take a look at them.


 

 If it just resistor you can also do like Canalworks.


----------



## ForceMajeure

Anyone think it would be a good idea to buy this

  
  
 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=2013.1.20141002.6.s0ksM5&scm=1007.10009.31621.100200300000001&id=534619483761&pvid=b387da97-8e06-4cdb-ac9a-8c520cfc0167
  
 I don't have a clue how I would actually attach it to a shell. Though it could be a good way to make some kind of universal with a"horn" if the tubes end before the opening of this metal piece.


----------



## MuZo2

Lot of Chinese guys are using it on their universal IEMs, but its not horn. Just standard metal nozzle to hold tips.


----------



## ForceMajeure

muzo2 said:


> If it just resistor you can also do like Canalworks.


 
 I just saw the Canalworks CIEM with the resistor on the outside never knew it existed. it looks kinda cool  
  
  
 I have these rotating resistor 0-100ohm 
 http://www.aliexpress.com/item/13539-Free-shipping-20PCS-EVM3ESX50B12-100-ohm-3-3-Trimpot-Trimmer-Potentiometer-variable-resistor/32349670678.html
  
 I think he might want to switch configuration completely or add another driver with a switch.


----------



## ForceMajeure

muzo2 said:


> Lot of Chinese guys are using it on their universal IEMs, but its not horn. Just standard metal nozzle to hold tips.


 
 I know it is not a horn but it can be used as some kind of wider opening if the tubes are attached before the opening.
  
 The thing is if I don't care about using it as a "horn" just as a simple way to make a universal, does it even worth the trouble of trying to attach it to a semimade universal shell.
 Sure it looks cool ala Rhapsodio Solar but I don't see the advantage of using it.


----------



## Xymordos

I actually wanted to use a switch since the VR is much too annoying to adjust when you're on the move. Some songs I like with more bass and some I like with less. So I wanted to try using a switch but I never could find switches that small...
  
 Edit: Knowles seem to only have push switches, darn.


----------



## MuZo2

http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-pc-Lot-MICRO-MINI-TOGGLE-SWITCH-SPDT-ON-OFF-MOMENTARY-ON-USA-SELLER-/281015069188?hash=item416dcdaa04mn0K21z_72iKc3TRxUz59yQ


----------



## Xymordos

I got that one but it's too big unfortunately. The ones used by Lime Ears and Vision Ears are much smaller, wonder where they got them.


----------



## MuZo2

May be sonion. So  you can check with Colsan in UK.


----------



## Farquarl

forcemajeure said:


> @Farquarl
> Awesome job!
> How long were the tube you used and what diameter?
> Also did you use a damper for the CI?
> What is that cable and how do you find it (soft, flexible, microphonics)?



18mm, no damper on CI, Cable is soft with multiple silver plated wires. The cable has no microphone and in my opinion it is of very good quality. 15$ on aliecpress.


----------



## MuZo2

May be you can try red damper on CI and green/white on twfk.


----------



## Farquarl

muzo2 said:


> May be you can try red damper on CI and green/white on twfk.


 
 Yeah maybe thats a good idea, to be honest i have not put much thought in the driver setup, thats what comes next. Maybe a good 4-5 driver IEM, for example DTEC with TFWK?
 Or CI + ED + TFWK....
 I have to read and look into the list with commercialy avaiable CIEM´s.


----------



## Farquarl

xymordos said:


> I got that one but it's too big unfortunately. The ones used by Lime Ears and Vision Ears are much smaller, wonder where they got them.



Imported Toggle Switches SMD 5x2 5*2 side switch slide switch miniature toggle 3 feet / 3PIN white handle second gear
 http://s.aliexpress.com/iQ3UjMrU


----------



## Tulku1967

> Originally Posted by *ForceMajeure* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> I have these rotating resistor 0-100ohm
> http://www.aliexpress.com/item/13539-Free-shipping-20PCS-EVM3ESX50B12-100-ohm-3-3-Trimpot-Trimmer-Potentiometer-variable-resistor/32349670678.html
> ...


 
I think it would be better
 It is also in Angie


----------



## Xymordos

tulku1967 said:


> I think it would be better
> It is also in Angie


 
  
  
 It's not better if you want to do it on the move though. A switch with 2 different configs would be more convenient.


----------



## Tulku1967

I thought it would be better to Tocos than Force Majeure open potentiometer (link from AliExpress)
 (If potentiometer built into earphones the job.)

 And of course, the switch is  switch,not  potentiometer, it is absolutely true...


----------



## ForceMajeure

tulku1967 said:


> I think it would be better
> It is also in Angie


 
 thanks, this one looks great. better than the ones I got.


----------



## Squirg

Morning HFers!  I'm working on a Clear Tune CF-400 Clone.  No other reason than it looked like I have the right drivers on hand.  Anyone had any experience with this particular IEM?  I think I have the wiring right but I have some serious phase issues, I think...
  
 My big question is: What value capacitor and resistor should I try?  I'm using a 2.2uf cap on 2389.

 Based on this...


----------



## omgflyingbanana

Thinking about doing a single CI-22955 build. Should I add dampers?


----------



## Lohb

Hi guys, looking to buy a full-range BA to pair with a DD. Based on similar price ranges, should I look beyond Knowles to Sonion and Colsan ?
 Is there any balanced natural-sounding full ranger with no hot treble you guys could recommend ? Not a big fan of cool/cold tonality...!


----------



## Shilohsjustice

lohb said:


> Hi guys, looking to buy a full-range BA to pair with a DD. Based on similar price ranges, should I look beyond Knowles to Sonion and Colsan ?
> Is there any balanced natural-sounding full ranger with no hot treble you guys could recommend ? Not a big fan of cool/cold tonality...!




Knowles BK-28562, it's cheap and a full range, this is the exact driver shure used for years in there single driver e3's. Several other companies use it as well.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Hello All,
  
 It's been awhile since I posted something that I've been working on. I had some Shure e5's sitting around for awhile and I decided to see if they could be reworked, for those of you that don't know they were a great 2 driver monitor back in the day and I still occasionally see them sell used for a couple hundred bucks.
  
 Biggest problem I had with them was the cable, it's so thick and bulky and non-detachable, and it yellowed very bad quickly! Oh, and the crossover circuit was in the cable at the Y, just a bad design in those regards.
  
*Spoiler: For those wanting to make a simple 2 Driver great sounding monitor, at the bottom I'll include the recipe to make this 2 driver setup with crossover and all. *
  
  
  

  
 The cable on this gem was cracked and broken, left side had intermittent problems, and the entire cable had turned from clear to yellow, ugh!!!! 
  
 First things first I had to get to the crossover circuit, heat gun did the trick!
  


 The plastic housing pealed right off after heat was applied..................
  
 Next I removed the drivers from the housing. (A little trick to get into universal monitors to mod or repair, use a hair dryer to heat them up, it makes it so much easier to get into them without damaging the housing.)
  

  
 Once the drivers were removed I harvested the 4 capacitors off the crossover board (2 for each side). I used my own resistor of the same value and recreated the circuit. I coated each cap and the res with super glue to ensure it didn't short out anywhere based on them being crammed into the same area in the housing.
  

  
 I put the drivers back into the rubber sleeve.
  

  
 Then I closed them up, re-did the red and blue dots, and on a side note I am surprised at how much space there was to fit the crossover in the shell housing, I didn't run into any issues and I am shocked that Shure didn't go that route in the beginning.
  
 This is what they turned out to be;
  


  
 Two Driver Monitor Recipe Book:
  
 Drivers Needed:
_*Knowles CI-22955*_*​ *
_*Knowles ED-23619*​_
  
 ​Capacitors and Resistors:
_*2.2uf Cap (2)*_
_*10 ohm Res*_


----------



## Xymordos

omgflyingbanana said:


> Thinking about doing a single CI-22955 build. Should I add dampers?


 
  
  
 Wouldn't recommend this though, you won't get enough treble with this driver.


----------



## Squirg

shilohsjustice said:


> Hello All,
> 
> It's been awhile since I posted something that I've been working on. I had some Shure e5's sitting around for awhile and I decided to see if they could be reworked, for those of you that don't know they were a great 2 driver monitor back in the day and I still occasionally see them sell used for a couple hundred bucks.
> 
> ...


 
 Very cool!  Looks fantastic.  Thanks for the recipe!  What is the purpose of stacking the caps instead of a bigger value?


----------



## Squirg

omgflyingbanana said:


> Thinking about doing a single CI-22955 build. Should I add dampers?


 
 Ci-22955 driver was my first build and I thought is sounded pretty good!  Sure, you don't get that last bit of sizzle on top, but it is designed to be a full range driver.  I didn't use any filters. 
  
 Go for it!


----------



## Shilohsjustice

squirg said:


> Very cool!  Looks fantastic.  Thanks for the recipe!  What is the purpose of stacking the caps instead of a bigger value?


 
  
 I am not sure 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





, I simply replicated how the circuit was laid out from the original Shure e5 circuit. I wonder if it has something to do with controlling the SPL without sacrificing Frequency Response, great question and I am now curious. Maybe someone could answer that question for Squirg and I.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Hello All,
  
  
 I was cooking up some 3 Driver configs and figured I would share one with everyone, it has promise and sounds great.
  
 Drivers:
 CI-22955
 TWFK
  
 Caps and Resistors:
 .47uf capacitor (connected to the WBFK side)
 39ohm resistor (connected inline with cap to the FK side)
 10ohm resistor
  


  
 Measurement:
  

  
 Setup Recipe: _Dual bore with Green Damper on TWFK 1.2mm ID tube on TWFK no Damping on CI driver_


----------



## NightFantasies

Hey guys, sort of a newbie here and I'm looking to build my first set of IEM's.
  
 I've been doing a lot of research and i am pretty confident in my ability to make some nice shells, however I'm having trouble finding any kind of detailed information on wiring/crossovers/driver /filter selection.  I've searched around a bunch but I can't seem to find anything that is in great detail, does anybody here have some links to good resources on learning about this stuff? Just looking through pages on this thread it seems to be somewhat of a detailed process.


----------



## Lohb

nightfantasies said:


> Hey guys, sort of a newbie here and I'm looking to build my first set of IEM's.
> 
> I've been doing a lot of research and i am pretty confident in my ability to make some nice shells, however I'm having trouble finding any kind of detailed information on wiring/crossovers/driver /filter selection.  I've searched around a bunch but I can't seem to find anything that is in great detail, does anybody here have some links to good resources on learning about this stuff? Just looking through pages on this thread it seems to be somewhat of a detailed process.


 

 New to the thread also, just discovered the great wiki.
 Can export it as a pdf...
 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jU37oWefx2dGS8dWw5TVkugEtwJh_bh3fuUBNe2HrQg/edit#heading=h.xq381wckisjn


----------



## NightFantasies

And that, is exactly what I was looking for, thanks so much!
  
 Holy **** do I have my reading ahead of me.
  
 Also out of curiosity, since I didn't see it in the guide... has anybody here tried making wooden shells similar to Noble etc.?  How exactly do they form a perfect replica of the ear impression.


----------



## MuZo2

nightfantasies said:


> Also out of curiosity, since I didn't see it in the guide... has anybody here tried making wooden shells similar to Noble etc.?  How exactly do they form a perfect replica of the ear impression.


 
 Its all done with digital process,
 1) Ear impressions are scanned in a 3d scanner.
 2) 3d model is worked on in special CAD software
 3) It can be 3d printed but for wood its CNC milled.


----------



## raptor18

@Shilohsjustice I did the same with my Shure E5 but i can't handle the bad Treble. I think it needs a horn or a better tweeter 
 Normally the ED-29689 (similar to the one in the E5 without the possibility for Half coil) doesn't seem to be a wise choice for treble.


----------



## sanekn

Hello guys, unfortunately for my wallet and fortunately for the project one of my shells cracked up so i will take them gk out and redo everything again and better goddamit! Wish me luck  i think my impressions are bad also since the audiologist didnt pressed them with some sheet and i havent opened my mouth neither.


----------



## Lohb

Biggest shell I've found online takes up to 10mm DD max.
  
  
  
 http://www.aliexpress.com/item/L-Size-Custom-IEM-DIY-Housing-Shell-For-Shure-SE535-Fitear-JH-Westone-etc-2-6/32610261494.html?spm=2114.01010208.3.10.pObtcZ&ws_ab_test=searchweb201556_8,searchweb201602_5_10057_10056_10055_10037_10049_10059_10032_10058_10017_10060_10061_10062_10064,searchweb201603_8&btsid=3c9d8ff9-e4e0-4e41-ad60-2a04376ace46
  
 Is there any other off-the-shelf universal shell that will take 13.5mm/16mm dynamic cones or will a custom reshell be needed ?
  
 Looking at a subwoofer/basshead level neodymium cone with a single full ranger or double BA later on when I can get the parts together, but getting everything bookmarked now.
 I think it may be better to have a split DD/BA chamber with this salvaged cone with them blending together at the port ? Most of these subwoofer type IEMs lacking microdetail, sucked out mids rolled off treble so I thought I'd try and bring together my own configuration.
 I'd imagine lowpass cutoff on the dynamic around 500hz or is there some 400-500 magic cutoff area !?


----------



## purdah

lohb said:


> Biggest shell I've found online takes up to 10mm DD max.


 
 Sorry to go slightly off your topic, but how do those custom shells work?
  
 Do you have to heat them up and mold to your ear? 
  
 Do you have to send them an impression and they send you back a completed shell?
  
 Is there someone who has reviewed those shells/process?


----------



## Lohb

lohb said:


> New to the thread also, just discovered the great wiki.
> Can export it as a pdf...
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jU37oWefx2dGS8dWw5TVkugEtwJh_bh3fuUBNe2HrQg/edit#heading=h.xq381wckisjn


 
  
  


purdah said:


> Sorry to go slightly off your topic, but how do those custom shells work?
> 
> Do you have to heat them up and mold to your ear?
> 
> ...


----------



## purdah

Lohb,
  
 Thanks for the link but I have already read it.
  
 That document does not however answer what the Aliexpress product actually is. What do you get for $35?


----------



## Lohb

purdah said:


> Lohb,
> 
> Thanks for the link but I have already read it.
> 
> That document does not however answer what the Aliexpress product actually is. What do you get for $35?


 

 Just a shell to make your DIY IEMs. Nothing more, not even the MMCX conenctor.


----------



## MuZo2

lohb said:


> Is there any other off-the-shelf universal shell that will take 13.5mm/16mm dynamic cones or will a custom reshell be needed ?




Its hard to fit 14mm driver in normal ciem type shell, 16mm may be you have to do it like Sony.
Note dynamic drivers ate really hard to get right because tuning depends on air in front and back of driver.
Big drivers are slower and can't match speed of BA drivers and you run into issues like coherency.


----------



## Lohb

muzo2 said:


> Its hard to fit 14mm driver in normal ciem type shell, 16mm may be you have to do it like Sony.
> Note dynamic drivers ate really hard to get right because tuning depends on air in front and back of driver.
> Big drivers are slower and can't match speed of BA drivers and you run into issues like coherency.


 

 Split chamber maybe and similar DD chamber shape to original shells which seems to narrowly hug the cones all the way round with very little space....plus air venting/porting considerations


----------



## ForceMajeure

Just posting this here, this guy also made nice IEMS
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/817125/my-first-diy-custom-iems#post_12792506


----------



## ignotus

Hi all,
  
 First time poster here. First of all I'd like to thank the contributors to this thread for their amazing work and for the wealth of information there is in here... I've spent a good few hours trawling through it with wide-eyed amazement and a fair amount of (well-meaning) envy! It had never even occurred to me that these things could be DIY-ed... until I stumbled on this thread, and as an avid DIY-er, I've decided I HAVE to make myself a pair.
  
 It being my first attempt and not wanting to risk flushing a sizeable amount of cash down the drain by screwing up an 8-driver setup, and following the oft-repeated advice I've seen on this thread, I'm going to go with a triple GK driver with its ready-made crossover, and I'm going to house it in a universal Shure-knock-off shell purchased on Aliexpress. Although It'd be fun to make my own custom molds, Shures fit my ears great and I'd rather save myself the hassle on my first attempt.
  
 I already own a pair of Shure SE215's, and they sound pretty decent and all (a bit bassy), but I mainly use them for playing my electronic drum kit and there are some kit pieces, particularly the snare, that sound like they're behind a thick curtain. I don't know if it's because the higher-frequency components of the snare are not coming through or what, but it's a bit annoying. I have a pair of cheap Superlux 668B's that sound fantastic. It's true the highs are slightly on the harsh side when crashing cymbals, but the snare and all other kit pieces sound beautiful. The problem is they're semi-open and don't isolate enough, which the Shures do exceptionally well. Basically, I'm looking to see if I can make myself a pair of IEMs that sound better than the 215's for roughly the same price, so here are my questions:
  
 1.- Is this a realistic goal? If it is, then...
  
 2.- Dampers: In the Shure shell I've been eyeing, the two nozzles from the GK driver would be going into a little chamber (that I'd seal against the drivers), combining both outputs into a single tube. Here's the product so you can see what I'm talking about: http://www.aliexpress.com/item/High-quality-C0-Repair-DIY-Unit-Housing-Shell-SE535-se425-se315-se215-W40-Earphone/32499329423.html?spm=2114.01010208.3.2.hdCVcz&ws_ab_test=searchweb201556_7,searchweb201602_2_10057_10056_10055_10037_10049_301_10033_10059_10032_10058_10017_10060_10061_10062,searchweb201603_9&btsid=9f16285c-26e3-4459-87e4-4d1c00a3544c. So I'd like to ask what damper/s would you recommend (if any)? Should I try attaching a separate damper to each nozzle? Is there any reason not to attach dampers directly on the nozzles (no tubing - wouldn't fit in the housing)? I understand that the best answer is to just buy a few different dampers and do some testing, but some pointers would be much appreciated; I'd prefer not to have to buy 2 of every single damper - maybe narrow it down to 3 values. I'd basically like to have tamed highs that are present but which don't send my ears ringing every time I whack a crash cymbal (the Superluxes tend to do that...).
  
 3.- Anything in particular I should be careful with or aware of? I'm fairly handy with a soldering iron so that part should be OK, but through experience I know that there are always unforeseen things that crop up, so any advice is welcome.
  
 Thanks for reading if you got this far, and apologies for the long-winded post!


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Sounds like you have a great plan, one damper on the nozzle is what shure and westone use on there triple driver units. 

White damper would work which is 680ohm. 

The GK has solder pads directly on the board so you won't really need to worry about burning up and drivers. Just be careful if you glue just in case you want to re-use the gk's in a reshell once you feel comfortable down the road, if you get glue or uv material on the wires you'll certainly damage them if you try to remove and would have to rewire the GK driver.


----------



## ignotus

Thank you Sir for such a quick reply!
  
 Yes, I think I'll get some white and green dampers and do some testing. I'm hoping to get the nozzles snug against the tube opening using some EVA foam with holes in it for the nozzles. It's a very tight fit for the drivers (I checked that they do actually fit - found a picture by someone else using the same shell and drivers), so I might even get away with not using any adhesives at all. We'll see...
  
 Cheers!


----------



## Squirg

Can someone tell me if this wiring looks correct based of this:
  
 http://ozvuke.pro/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=4121
  
  
 This is how I interpret that.  Let me know how off I am 

 Thanks HFers!


----------



## Tulku1967

That's how I interpret that:





 I connected in parallel the Sonion 3800...not in series


----------



## sanekn

Dude, wish you best of luck with tour build!  i think the GK driver itself sound really amazing! For the dampers i havent put any of it in tubes and i fond the sound awesome as it is. But im not the most experienced or professional 

Anyway ive done my second set of impressions. The audiologist lady was professional and listened to me when I talked het about requirements for impressions etc and she dis it awesomly well. Hope this time it will work better


----------



## piotrus-g

squirg said:


> Can someone tell me if this wiring looks correct based of this:
> 
> http://ozvuke.pro/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=4121
> 
> ...


 
 That seem to be about right but you want your C1 to be connected directly to + not to the pad of 3800.
 And you need negative wire as well


----------



## ignotus

sanekn said:


> Dude, wish you best of luck with tour build!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks mate. Yeah, from what I've gathered the GK is a pretty safe bet in terms of sound quality. I ordered all the parts today, including some white and green dampers, so I'll play around with those (and also try without) and see what happens. I admire you guys doing it all DIY from scratch and experimenting with drivers, crossovers, faceplates, etc. My tinkering hobby is electronic drums and I'm kind of trying to skirt around and not get sucked into what could potentially become another full-blown, wallet-busting (and dangerous: I have a wife) hobby 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. I forced myself to just order everything today according to the initial plan before I start fantasizing with 5-driver setups and custom shells...


----------



## Squirg

Quote:Originally Posted by *Squirg* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
   Can someone tell me if this wiring looks correct based of this:
  
 http://ozvuke.pro/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=4121
  
  
 This is how I interpret that.  Let me know how off I am 

 Thanks HFers!

  


tulku1967 said:


> That's how I interpret that:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks Tulku!  The only reason I was wiring in series is because I was following the Sonion description.  Your wiring makes more sense to me.  Have you made this design?  If so, how did it sound?  What tubing/dampers did you use?  Thanks again!!!


----------



## sanekn

ignotus said:


> Thanks mate. Yeah, from what I've gathered the GK is a pretty safe bet in terms of sound quality. I ordered all the parts today, including some white and green dampers, so I'll play around with those (and also try without) and see what happens. I admire you guys doing it all DIY from scratch and experimenting with drivers, crossovers, faceplates, etc. My tinkering hobby is electronic drums and I'm kind of trying to skirt around and not get sucked into what could potentially become another full-blown, wallet-busting (and dangerous: I have a wife) hobby  . I forced myself to just order everything today according to the initial plan before I start fantasizing with 5-driver setups and custom shells...



Yeah, the wallet/wife thing is quite complicated haha...


----------



## MuZo2

dangerous: wife


----------



## Shilohsjustice

ignotus said:


> Thanks mate. Yeah, from what I've gathered the GK is a pretty safe bet in terms of sound quality. I ordered all the parts today, including some white and green dampers, so I'll play around with those (and also try without) and see what happens. I admire you guys doing it all DIY from scratch and experimenting with drivers, crossovers, faceplates, etc. My tinkering hobby is electronic drums and I'm kind of trying to skirt around and not get sucked into what could potentially become another full-blown, wallet-busting (and dangerous: I have a wife) hobby  . I forced myself to just order everything today according to the initial plan before I start fantasizing with 5-driver setups and custom shells...





Careful with the DIY IEM scene, once you start you can't stop. I was bit by the bug a few years ago and the desire to build a good pair of IEM's for stage (I'm a guitar player) has turned into another and another and another and another............ It's hard not to get hooked, before you know it there's a lab in your house equipped with a uv chamber, lots of fotoplast, a lathe, a Cubard with all kinds of goodies, and drawer full of drivers, and laser to engrave face plates, lol. Seems I have tons of friends wanting me to "hook them up" with there own sets of monitors. Best hobby I have ever had!!!


----------



## sanekn

guys I have some questions here if you dont mind... I teared my 'old' iems apart, but totally messed up crossovers on both of my GKs. So Im basicly stucked here with a pair of twfk+CI combo. Do anyone here have a schematic for some nice crossover or even the basic one of the GK driver? (Im in search of a clear detailed balanced sound, maybe calm the CI down a little somehow...)
And this time i wanted to make a single acoustic tube design since my ear canals are really narrow. Will I have Any issues with this configuration?

Or maybe I could just do the 2 tube design from BAs, red dampers on CI, no dampers at twfk, no x-over, then all of it in the larger tube which go out, and call it a day?

Thanks in advance


----------



## ignotus

shilohsjustice said:


> Careful with the DIY IEM scene, once you start you can't stop. I was bit by the bug a few years ago and the desire to build a good pair of IEM's for stage (I'm a guitar player) has turned into another and another and another and another............ It's hard not to get hooked, before you know it there's a lab in your house equipped with a uv chamber, lots of fotoplast, a lathe, a Cubard with all kinds of goodies, and drawer full of drivers, and laser to engrave face plates, lol. Seems I have tons of friends wanting me to "hook them up" with there own sets of monitors. Best hobby I have ever had!!!


 
 Hobbies/pursuits/interests are essential in life - people with none are often dull and bitter... I'm telling you, if I was still single and childless, any hobbies that involved DIY electronics and music would be enthusiastically embraced.... but now i have very little time/funds I can dedicate to them, so I have to keep the urge in check


----------



## Shilohsjustice

sanekn said:


> guys I have some questions here if you dont mind... I teared my 'old' iems apart, but totally messed up crossovers on both of my GKs. So Im basicly stucked here with a pair of twfk+CI combo. Do anyone here have a schematic for some nice crossover or even the basic one of the GK driver? (Im in search of a clear detailed balanced sound, maybe calm the CI down a little somehow...)
> And this time i wanted to make a single acoustic tube design since my ear canals are really narrow. Will I have Any issues with this configuration?
> 
> Or maybe I could just do the 2 tube design from BAs, red dampers on CI, no dampers at twfk, no x-over, then all of it in the larger tube which go out, and call it a day?
> ...




All you need is a 22uf cap and a 5ohm resistor. 

22uf cap to the twfk, lead wire to cap, cap to both positive ports on the twfk. 

5ohm res on the CI driver.


----------



## sanekn

shilohsjustice said:


> All you need is a 22uf cap and a 5ohm resistor.
> 
> 22uf cap to the twfk, lead wire to cap, cap to both positive ports on the twfk.
> 
> 5ohm res on the CI driver.



Im really dont know anything about electronics at this point... I will try to do some sort of scheme and show it to your guys approuval if you dont mind 

Thank you for your input! Will try to do this, with crossover I could also do my 1 tube plan...


----------



## ignotus

muzo2 said:


> dangerous: wife


 

 - *Wife*: LISTEN to me when I'm talking to you. You've spent WHAT to fool around with your soldering iron and plug tiny pieces of plastic into your ears?!?
  
 - *Me*: [Pulls out IEMs] Sorry dear?
  
**THWACK!**


----------



## Shilohsjustice

sanekn said:


> Im really dont know anything about electronics at this point... I will try to do some sort of scheme and show it to your guys approuval if you dont mind
> 
> Thank you for your input! Will try to do this, with crossover I could also do my 1 tube plan...




Maybe this will help:


----------



## ForceMajeure

shilohsjustice said:


> Maybe this will help:


 
 I think the cap on the twfk is only for one driver of the twfk in the pic above.
 Should be for both no?
  
 I think this is the correct ver


----------



## Shilohsjustice

forcemajeure said:


> I think the cap on the twfk is only for one driver of the twfk in the pic above.
> Should be for both no?
> 
> I think this is the correct ver




Yes that's correct. I drew it incorrect, thank you ForceMajeure for the correction!!!!!


----------



## sanekn

Love you people. Thank you so much!

Last question if you dont mind - what type of caps / resistors i need to use, i can see on mouser they have different voltages and res have wattage rates... (Yeah, i really jon snowing on electronics...)


----------



## Shilohsjustice

sanekn said:


> Love you people. Thank you so much!
> 
> Last question if you dont mind - what type of caps / resistors i need to use, i can see on mouser they have different voltages and res have wattage rates... (Yeah, i really jon snowing on electronics...)




I have been using Tantalum Capacitors 22uf 6.3v 10% size 1210 like these:



I use size 0805 smd resistors, they are small but after working with them you get used to it. I like them this small so I can work crossovers into smaller shells, I simply coat the resistors/capacitors with super glue once soldered so they do not short anything should they come into contact with the driver or another cap/res.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Wattage with regard the the resistor relates to the amount it can withstand without damaging the resistor. Someone else can correct me if I'm wrong, but the wattage won't affect resistance.


----------



## sanekn

Man thank you so much!  Ive just purchased everything on ebay because i just cant pay mousers 20€ shipping for 4 microscopic cheap components... Will se if it works out well!

The last question tho, i'm sure its been told already somewhere here but what type and gauge wire should be used between electronic components? ive used some wire i had on my hands but it was quite stiff. Any thoughts?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

sanekn said:


> Man thank you so much!  Ive just purchased everything on ebay because i just cant pay mousers 20€ shipping for 4 microscopic cheap components... Will se if it works out well!




Awesome, let us know how things go!!!


----------



## Shilohsjustice

The last question tho, i'm sure its been told already somewhere here but what type and gauge wire should be used between electronic components? ive used some wire i had on my hands but it was quite stiff. Any thoughts?[/quote]

When started out I would strip the wire from cheap in ear headphones, this would last a while like a $5 pair. I think the cable I use is like 50micron litz wire. It's hard to use gauges wire but you could get away with a 30awg hook up wire. (Number goes up smaller the thickness of wire)


----------



## grushaaa

yes cool


----------



## Squirg

sanekn said:


> Man thank you so much!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I just got some of this stuff in and it works beautifully!  
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/T028BL-10m-BLACK-0-28mm-Teflon-Micro-Litz-Wire-Solder-High-temperature-10m-1pcs-/191942042563?hash=item2cb0a323c3:g:R9UAAOSwwpdW6jNg
  
 And the price is right!!!


----------



## Squirg

I think I am finally getting some decent measurements on my Veritas:
  
  
  
  

  
 This is a 3 driver Sonion 26-E25, 2015 design.


----------



## sanekn

squirg said:


> I just got some of this stuff in and it works beautifully!
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/T028BL-10m-BLACK-0-28mm-Teflon-Micro-Litz-Wire-Solder-High-temperature-10m-1pcs-/191942042563?hash=item2cb0a323c3:g:R9UAAOSwwpdW6jNg
> 
> And the price is right!!!


thank you sir!


----------



## Tulku1967

squirg said:


> Thanks Tulku!  The only reason I was wiring in series is because I was following the Sonion description.  Your wiring makes more sense to me.  Have you made this design?  If so, how did it sound?  What tubing/dampers did you use?  Thanks again!!!


 
 You're right!
 3800 connected in series  better to 1723.
 Due to impedance matching...
  
  In Angie is 3800  wired in parallel ...
 But there is a similar impedance of 2800, other than 1723.


----------



## Idsynchrono_24

I was just reading around about metallic housings for IEMs and came across a post in the Rhapsodio thread that said that the Rti1's shell was actually an OEM design by PPsound and that it was available on Taobao at one point.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/703315/rhapsodio-an-overlooked-brand-of-nice-iems#post_10225289
  


 That's it right there.
  
 I really like this shell, but googling for it doesn't seem to turn up any leads, does anyone know whether this particular item is still for sale?


----------



## myemaildw

it has mmcx female connector attached to it so might be a complete earphone rather than a shell.

I've searched alliexpress diy earphone and it has some diy iem shells and whot not but seems expensive


----------



## Idsynchrono_24

Right, maybe? The links no longer function but if you click on the post I linked to, you can see that Svyr mentions that the shell or IEM costs 1/10 of what the Rti1 did upon release, so roughly $100? Sammy from Rhapsodio also fessed up that the shells for the Rti1 were sourced from PPsound. I'm just wondering if it's at all possible to nab one of these shells for a custom project. There doesn't seem to be any metallic shells that are in the pseudo custom form which is what I'm looking for.


----------



## RockerzinhoBR

Hi guys, i just bought some pairs of CI 30210 and ED 26784. I got 2 pairs of green dampers, 1 pair of red dampers and 1 pair of white dampers. How do you all think that can be a good design ? How do you guys would match this drivers ? I would like to get you guys thoughts, once i never worked with those drivers and i would like to get a flat sound.
 Thanks


----------



## ForceMajeure

idsynchrono_24 said:


> Right, maybe? The links no longer function but if you click on the post I linked to, you can see that Svyr mentions that the shell or IEM costs 1/10 of what the Rti1 did upon release, so roughly $100? Sammy from Rhapsodio also fessed up that the shells for the Rti1 were sourced from PPsound. I'm just wondering if it's at all possible to nab one of these shells for a custom project. There doesn't seem to be any metallic shells that are in the pseudo custom form which is what I'm looking for.


 
 Knock yourself out 
 https://world.taobao.com/item/535822950912.htm?spm=a312a.7700714.0.0.6OPLni
 https://world.taobao.com/item/536417055706.htm?spm=a312a.7700714.0.0.3ev78e#detail


----------



## renren234

Hello, ive just started on making ciem. Am still experimenting tho, but I need some help with crossover. 

This is just a rough circuit I drew up. I know there is already a few crossover circuits out there I can follow, but after reading into the theory I have many questions in mind and would like to clear it up. I've not put in any values cause I am not yet sure if it would work out right.

1. In the diagram I drew, I used RC to make my LowPassFilter for my woofer instead of a inductor.
But I've seen diagram that only uses only resistor.
So Is this right?

2. For HighPassFilter, a cap would do fine. But some uses a CR to cut the Low frequency? But won't it become a BandPassFilter? Or only when I use a inductor with a Cap then it will be. 
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-RCpad.htm

3. What happens when two caps are stack in series, +||- -||+ ? Is this better than getting the right cap or is this like some secret method for the shure circuit haha

4. What does it mean to reverse the Drivers, example the Ci22955. "When two sinusoids meet they bump each other. When reverse one of the sine wave they mute each other out. So you can make a crossover reverse wiring allows frequencies to blend without bumping." So that means, say my Ci produces 20hz - 1.5khz, my ED will then only produce frequency right exactly from 1.5khz - 20khz?

Also I thought I found this read pretty convenient. It has the results of dampers used with the different knowles Drivers. http://www.knowles.com/eng/content/download/2793/32792/version/5/file/TB-14.pdf
 I would like to thank all of you who had put in so much effort into helping us noobies, with your cheat sheets and knowledge! Thank you!

Ps. Anyone has any experience with HE31751?


----------



## ForceMajeure

renren234 said:


> Hello, ive just started on making ciem. Am still experimenting tho, but I need some help with crossover.
> 
> This is just a rough circuit I drew up. I know there is already a few crossover circuits out there I can follow, but after reading into the theory I have many questions in mind and would like to clear it up. I've not put in any values cause I am not yet sure if it would work out right.
> 
> ...


 
 Using just a resistor with damper in the tube is usually the most "common" way to control the bass drive. The resistor will allow you to control the SPL level and the damper to "lower" mid and treble response from the driver. Using an RC low pass filter is another way but it is usually avoided because of phase issues...
  


> 2. For HighPassFilter, a cap would do fine. But some uses a CR to cut the Low frequency? But won't it become a BandPassFilter? Or only when I use a inductor with a Cap then it will be.
> http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-RCpad.htm


 
 No a band pass filter using RC components consist of 2 filters HP filter and LP filter for the same driver like this (Vout is the driver)

  
  


> 3. What happens when two caps are stack in series, +||- -||+ ? Is this better than getting the right cap or is this like some secret method for the shure circuit haha


 
 No secret, just a way to get the overall cap value they wanted cap in series is like resistor in parallel 1/CTotal= 1/C1 + 1/C2+ 1/C3...
  


> 4. What does it mean to reverse the Drivers, example the Ci22955. "When two sinusoids meet they bump each other. When reverse one of the sine wave they mute each other out. So you can make a crossover reverse wiring allows frequencies to blend without bumping." So that means, say my Ci produces 20hz - 1.5khz, my ED will then only produce frequency right exactly from 1.5khz - 20khz?


 
 In theory if you wire 2 EXACT same drivers, one in normal polarity and the 2nd in reverse polarity, one driver will cancel the other one soundwise 
 Because the ED is not the same driver as the CI they will not cancel out each other from 20hz to 1.5khz, also they will have different components such as resistors and caps that will further alter their frequency in those range.
 Also the rest of the ED frequency range (from  1.5khz and above) will sound weird because it is in reverse polarity relative to the CI. Ususally it will manifest itself with a dip in  freq response above 1.5khz also. Don't recommend to wire drivers in reverse polarity unless you know exactly what you want to achieve..


----------



## ForceMajeure

rockerzinhobr said:


> Hi guys, i just bought some pairs of CI 30210 and ED 26784. I got 2 pairs of green dampers, 1 pair of red dampers and 1 pair of white dampers. How do you all think that can be a good design ? How do you guys would match this drivers ? I would like to get you guys thoughts, once i never worked with those drivers and i would like to get a flat sound.
> Thanks


 
 Don't know those drivers, If I am not mistaken then you will have a bit of a mismatch impedance wise because the CI you chosen is low impedance and ED you chosen is 88ohm impedance. Meaning the higher frequency will be more difficult to extract because electrically it will be harder to drive those drivers (BA have higher impedance at higher frequency and 88ohm at 1khz is already high)
  
 But that doesn't mean s***.Trail and error is your best friend.
  
 I would try first just too wire both driver in parralel, use the biggest value damper on the CI and hear how it sounds. Better if you can measure...and go from there.
 Too much bass then add a resistor in series to the CI...
 Too much mid bass then try a High pass filter on the ED at the mid bass section using a capacitor...
 To much shrill treble add a lower value damper to the ED


----------



## Idsynchrono_24

forcemajeure said:


> Knock yourself out
> https://world.taobao.com/item/535822950912.htm?spm=a312a.7700714.0.0.6OPLni
> 
> https://world.taobao.com/item/536417055706.htm?spm=a312a.7700714.0.0.3ev78e#detail




Dude you are a gentleman and a scholar. I assume these are aluminum shells? Hard to tell from the pics but I'm hoping to find some metal shells for the project.


----------



## ForceMajeure

idsynchrono_24 said:


> Dude you are a gentleman and a scholar. I assume these are aluminum shells? Hard to tell from the pics but I'm hoping to find some metal shells for the project.


 
 Yes those are zinc-alu alloy.
 Usually some metal shells materials are not used because of allergic reaction some may have.
  
 You could buy the Auglamour r8 just for the shells


----------



## renren234

forcemajeure said:


> No a band pass filter using RC components consist of 2 filters HP filter and LP filter for the same driver like this (Vout is the driver)




Thank you for your reply! 
Just a question, the capacitor C2 and resistor R2 in parallel is the HPF for the driver am I right?


----------



## ForceMajeure

renren234 said:


> Thank you for your reply!
> Just a question, the capacitor C2 and resistor R2 in parallel is the HPF for the driver am I right?


 
 no, 
 this is more simpler to comprehend
  

  
 http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/filter/filter_4.html


----------



## mjneubrander

I recently had my shells crack on a chinese DIY set. While I reshelling them into a new SE535 casing I tried to fix a mild left to right offset in the midrange and then many things went wrong. So I figured while I was doing some soldering I could possibly do better on the crossover. Here is what came in the old shell. Since my degree in crossover design and electronic part selection is the google express express edition, I decided to ask for help here. The TWFK has a unidentifibly small capacitor on it. My guess is that I have a basic band pass. My understanding is that this will cause phase issues. I have visited both erseaudio and diyaudioandvideo. I would ask people who know things since I am not confident in choosing a design.


----------



## Tulku1967

mjneubrander said:


> I recently had my shells crack on a chinese DIY set. While I reshelling them into a new SE535 casing I tried to fix a mild left to right offset in the midrange and then many things went wrong. So I figured while I was doing some soldering I could possibly do better on the crossover. Here is what came in the old shell. Since my degree in crossover design and electronic part selection is the google express express edition, I decided to ask for help here. The TWFK has a unidentifibly small capacitor on it. My guess is that I have a basic band pass. My understanding is that this will cause phase issues. I have visited both erseaudio and diyaudioandvideo. I would ask people who know things since I am not confident in choosing a design.


 


 The drawing is in front of DTEC a high pass filter (6 dB / octave), and in front of TWFK  a low pass filter (2nd of 12 dB / octave).

 Would not it be better to reverse the order?

 Piotrus-g sent me the link where you find a lot of filter tool.


----------



## mjneubrander

tulku1967 said:


> The drawing is in front of DTEC a high pass filter (6 dB / octave), and in front of TWFK  a low pass filter (2nd of 12 dB / octave).
> 
> Would not it be better to reverse the order?
> 
> Piotrus-g sent me the link where you find a lot of filter tool.


 
  
  
 Yes it would definitely make more sense. So I went back and checked my drawing vs the components and I had things backwards as you suspected. Here is my revised drawing. Thanks so much for the fast reply. Any opinion on using a R/L 2nd order butterworth crossover vs R/C bandpass? For bandpass any recommendation to change the dB for each driver? If a R/L crossover; Based on the size of the SMD inductors and space left in the case I could build a 2nd order butterworth crossover somewhere around 350Hz and up.


----------



## ForceMajeure

mjneubrander said:


> Yes it would definitely make more sense. So I went back and checked my drawing vs the components and I had things backwards as you suspected. Here is my revised drawing. Thanks so much for the fast reply. Any opinion on using a R/L 2nd order butterworth crossover vs R/C bandpass? For bandpass any recommendation to change the dB for each driver? If a R/L crossover; Based on the size of the SMD inductors and space left in the case I could build a 2nd order butterworth crossover somewhere around 350Hz and up.


 
 This is not a bandpassfilter, you have a low pass filter for the dtec Cutting freq is 361hz
 And you probably have an highpass filter for only one part of the twfk driver because you say you have ("TWFK has a unidentifibly small capacitor on it") probably looks like this

  
 it is not clear what you are trying to achieve tough. If you want more mids then try first to desolder the cap from the twfk and hear it full range without the dtec.
 Don't forget to solder 2 positive wires for both driver of the twfk and 1 negative wire (twfk have negative parts of both driver wired together already, you should be able to see the green wire connecting both negative parts of the twfk)


----------



## Shilohsjustice

I personally like the sound of a .82uf cap on the WBFK side of the TWFK. 

I've also used .4ohm resistor to a .47uf cap to the WBFK side of the TWFK and found the sound to be pleasing to the ears.


----------



## ForceMajeure

Great read about the new Balanced Armatures players
  
 https://cymbacavum.com/2016/08/24/the-biz-more-companies-join-in-on-the-manufacture-of-balanced-armatures/


----------



## sanekn

Good evening guys, another question still.
  
 Since I have a really narrow ear canals I thought to fit a single big tube to both GK exits and make one tube design. Will it sound worse than two tubes designs in your opinion or I can try it out freely?
  
 Just struggled to fit two thin tubes in my prototypes and it ended with two tubes being quite deformed and smashed at their endings...
  
 Cheers!


----------



## ForceMajeure

shilohsjustice said:


> I personally like the sound of a .82uf cap on the WBFK side of the TWFK.
> 
> I've also used .4ohm resistor to a .47uf cap to the WBFK side of the TWFK and found the sound to be pleasing to the ears.


 
 Just want to be sure
 .82uf =0.82uf? 
  
 .4ohm=0.4ohm?
  
 I didn't understand what you meant by using a resistor to the wbfk? Like using it in series to the wbfk?
  
  


sanekn said:


> Good evening guys, another question still.
> 
> Since I have a really narrow ear canals I thought to fit a single big tube to both GK exits and make one tube design. Will it sound worse than two tubes designs in your opinion or I can try it out freely?
> 
> ...


 
 Using 2 tubes will allow you to use different dampers ni the tubes for the drivers, doing so you can tame the CI mid/highs more by using a higher value damper than on the TWFK.
 What diameter tubes did you use?
  
 You could also use 2 tubes with the different dampers and merge them to one using a shrink tube over them


----------



## sanekn

forcemajeure said:


> Just want to be sure
> .82uf =0.82uf?
> 
> .4ohm=0.4ohm?
> ...



I dont really sure about diameters but i bought them from vibrolabs.

http://diy.vibrolabs.com/products/acoustic-tubing

I understand about damping ,I didnt do any on my first ones tho. Could also use a big one on the twfk and the narrow one on the CI like sonion advised I believe (narrow tubing kind of kills highs apparently). Or do some complex tubing like the big one on the twfk, and on the ci like narrow -big with damper- narrow - connecting it to the big one of the twfk and one sound hole exit. But it will be tricky.

Just to be clear about the narrowness of my ears here my new impressions 
Can you confirm if theyre valid? 

I could fit 2 soundholes on my first one because i cut the canal part below the second bend, but i belive it didnt helped the seal... This time i want it to be perfectly on spot but yeah, narrow stuff


----------



## ForceMajeure

Your impressions looks ok, but it is hard to evaluate their size from here.
 I think Vibrolab's tube are 3mm outer diameter. There are tube that have a smaller outer diameter.
  
 Don't stress about the fact that the tip must pass the 2nd bend to get a good seal, it is not true and longer tips cause discomfort. The outer ear part of the CIEM are more critical for getting a good seal. Best is to have the tip just at or slightly above the second bend no need to get deeper.
  
 Best thing is to try and see how it sound to you using one tube with one damper first. Maybe you will like it.


----------



## sanekn

forcemajeure said:


> Your impressions looks ok, but it is hard to evaluate their size from here.
> I think Vibrolab's tube are 3mm outer diameter. There are tube that have a smaller outer diameter.
> 
> Don't stress about the fact that the tip must pass the 2nd bend to get a good seal, it is not true and longer tips cause discomfort. The outer ear part of the CIEM are more critical for getting a good seal. Best is to have the tip just at or slightly above the second bend no need to get deeper.
> ...



Yes, sure man, I will make some tests I guess, before doing anything irreversible. 
The audiologist lady said exactly same thing you said about impressions 
I guess I will try to get two tubes in the canal but using the big one on twfk and the narrow one on the CI, and certanly will use your electric scheme 
Thank you so much for all the information you gave me, really appreciated 
I will certanly post my results and impressions about the product!


----------



## Makahl

Hey guys! I'm wondering build my first IEM, but atm I want to create a universal for testing.

 After thought about some models and being an analytical head I ended on Fitear F111 shell's style, which uses a horn and the problem is that I can't find it, then, is there some similar nozzle with this feature on the market? I've started making a sketch of this 3D shell, I hope it can work if I find this waveguide/horn.

 Also, reading the Etymotic thread some user posted this review from seeko about the new Etymotics which apparently are using those new drivers on their models: RAB-32257 (XR) and RAB-32063 (SR) over the classic ED-29689.

 Other basic question, is these drivers of Etymotic and Fitear assembled without tubing? If someone builds something similar and can bring some infos I'll appreciate.
  


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


----------



## Makahl

makahl said:


> After thought about some models and being an analytical head I ended on Fitear F111 shell's style, which uses a horn and the problem is that I can't find it, then,* is there some similar nozzle with this feature on the market? *I've started making a sketch of this 3D shell, I hope it can work if I find this waveguide/horn.
> 
> Also, reading the Etymotic thread some user posted this review from seeko about the new Etymotics which apparently are using those new drivers on their models: RAB-32257 (XR) and RAB-32063 (SR) over the classic ED-29689.


 

 After some research, I've found this similar nozzle from KZ-ED9 which is more than enough for my first prototype. I'm debating now if those RAB drivers are really used in the new Etymotics, datasheet shows they finish responding at 11kHz over 16kHz as described on their site, is there possible a difference between measurement profile/rig?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

forcemajeure said:


> Just want to be sure
> .82uf =0.82uf?
> 
> .4ohm=0.4ohm?
> ...




Yes in series to the wbfk, I did mean 0.82uf and 0.4ohm resistor.


----------



## Squirg

Hey Guys.  I am still having a hard time getting a clean/smooth shell.  I get a great finished product, but only after grinding, sanding, and lacquering the acrylic.  My shells come out of the negative bumpy even after dipping in wax.  Am I not processing the mold enough?  Do you guys sand/buff the silicone mold before waxing?  I have noticed I get a smoother shell with thicker wax.  What temp do you guys set your wax at?  I am using paraffin wax, BTW.        
  
 Sorry for all the questions but I feel like I am doing more work on the back when I see guys getting a perfect shell right out of the negative...
  
 Also, I am wanting to do a 3800, 2015, 2389.  Anyone done this combo?


----------



## ForceMajeure

makahl said:


> Hey guys! I'm wondering build my first IEM, but atm I want to create a universal for testing.
> 
> After thought about some models and being an analytical head I ended on Fitear F111 shell's style, which uses a horn and the problem is that I can't find it, then, is there some similar nozzle with this feature on the market? I've started making a sketch of this 3D shell, I hope it can work if I find this waveguide/horn.
> 
> ...


 
 Thank you for the update about the XR and SR series.
 I don't know about the fitear but I don't think they use any tubing, ety's don't uses any tubing, ED drivers and sonion 2389 tends to sound their best the closer they are to the eardrum.
 If I am not mistaken to get an er4p just add a 22ohm resistor in series to the ED driver and green dampers.
  
 Regarding extensions of graphs, I think etymotic uses compensation for their graph thus the different results.
  
  


squirg said:


> Hey Guys.  I am still having a hard time getting a clean/smooth shell.  I get a great finished product, but only after grinding, sanding, and lacquering the acrylic.  My shells come out of the negative bumpy even after dipping in wax.  Am I not processing the mold enough?  Do you guys sand/buff the silicone mold before waxing?  I have noticed I get a smoother shell with thicker wax.  What temp do you guys set your wax at?  I am using paraffin wax, BTW.
> 
> Sorry for all the questions but I feel like I am doing more work on the back when I see guys getting a perfect shell right out of the negative...
> 
> Also, I am wanting to do a 3800, 2015, 2389.  Anyone done this combo?


 
 Are you ear impressions after waxing smooth? If they are smooth then there is no reason get shells out of the mold with bumps unless there is a problem with your molding material like bubbles that could form during pouring. What colloid do you use?
  
 I switched from paraffin wax to egger professional wax as I am able to have a thinner and more uniform coat. I sometimes got a small bump from the wax on the impression that I take care of after making the shell by sanding it, but nothing major.
  
 I have a question though how did you acquire your sonion drivers and what were the cost?


----------



## sanekn

[quote [/B]name="Squirg" url="/t/430688/home-made-iems/5205#post_12826589"]Hey Guys.  I am still having a hard time getting a clean/smooth shell.  I get a great finished product, but only after grinding, sanding, and lacquering the acrylic.  My shells come out of the negative bumpy even after dipping in wax.  Am I not processing the mold enough?  Do you guys sand/buff the silicone mold before waxing?  I have noticed I get a smoother shell with thicker wax.  What temp do you guys set your wax at?  I am using paraffin wax, BTW.        

Sorry for all the questions but I feel like I am doing more work on the back when I see guys getting a perfect shell right out of the negative...

Also, I am wanting to do a 3800, 2015, 2389.  Anyone done this combo? 
[/quote]
Hey, when you get your correct impressions done its important to do some smoothing (usually the polishing dremel bits work the best, yes the white ones ) after that waxing (60 degrees celcius works for me). In fact yesterday I managed to do this :


----------



## Squirg

Thanks!  I'm pretty sure my wax is too hot.  I'll try cooling it down.
  
 Anyone out there combined 2015, 3800 (or 3300), and 2389?  Those are two very powerful woofers.  Which is better to use as mids -- 2015 or 3800?


----------



## piotrus-g

2015 for mids by big margin.


----------



## alatheus

Hey guys!
  
 I've been reading the thread for a couple years, built(and rebuilt a couple times ) my own custom 2-driver IEMS and have been using them for more than a year already, mostly on-stage
 .
 Some time ago I got the insides of UE11 but they're not soldered together and as I have no experience with crossovers I wanted to ask if anybody has a diagram for UE11?
  
 what I have is:
  
 - Driver that says "UE 0832 UElow" attached to a dual driver "UE11e 0744" (I think these are Mid + Sub/Low respectively, but I got confused by "UElow" written on what I think is a mid driver) x 2
 - Driver that says "UE 0837 UEhi" x 2
 - thin film resistors "10R0" 10 ohms each I guess x 2
 - SMD capacitors "155 35k" seem to be 155 pF if I'm not mistaken x 2
  
 The other problem is that I can't figure out polarity of the drivers as there's no schematics for them at least I wasn't able to find any info about those. What I figured out was that dual "UE11e 0744" driver seems to be the same as Sonion 33AJ007i/9 in size and appearance
  
 pictures are here:
 https://www.dropbox.com/sh/07i5uotnf8kirqu/AACxcExFWl8hMB5CNC7wCvama?dl=0


----------



## ForceMajeure

Ue11 uses a  Knowles CI-60003, Sonion 3300 (probably 33AJ007i/9 ), Sonion 2300 (probably 2389)
  


  according to this pics the 2389 is wired half coil,

  
look at this one
  
 unfortunately I don't have time right now to completely figure out the all the connections but from here you should be good to go. yellow and red wires are usually the positive ones...the resistor in series to the CI, and the cap is for the 2389 half coil
  
 polarity for the Sonion drivers can be found here
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/430688/home-made-iems/4380#post_12321839
 Pay attention that the 33AJ007i/9 you have is already wired in series for both parts (this is a double ba)
  
 can you post a clear picture of the cap values you have? cause it seems like a 1.5uf from what you say...also can you say what color are the dampers to which drivers (one is green from what I am able to see)?


----------



## ForceMajeure

I have a question for anyone that had/have a UE900 or UE700.
 Those iems use a TWFK-60232
 this a a TWFK with a cap attached to it.


  
 if the ue700 are just using this driver with no additional components then the impedance should be ~40ohms according to some sites or 49ohms according to this graph. which is close to the impedance of the TWFK-30017 rated at 43ohms...

  
  
 measurements of them from here http://en.goldenears.net/index.php?document_srl=2072&mid=GR_Earphones&sort_index=readed_count&order_type=desc
 The ue700 have a green damper to them.

  
 Anyone knows the value for the cap? I think Shilo stated it is 22uf. I just want to be sure
 Also are those a TWFK the same as the old TWFK-30017​ with a cap on them?


----------



## Gene6ix

hi all,
  
 my result is so bad with derve fotopast S hard, it's not so clear like it should to be.What am i wrong with it ?  or Should i use a sandpaper to make it shine ?


----------



## Gene6ix

hi all
  
 how to make the silicon without air bubble or less bubble ,could you please give me an advice .


----------



## alatheus

forcemajeure said:


> Ue11 uses a  Knowles CI-60003, Sonion 3300 (probably 33AJ007i/9 ), Sonion 2300 (probably 2389)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 thank you, sir!  great info.
  
 dual bass driver and mids use 1 tube and there's a green damper there
 tweeter uses a white one
  
 cap picture's here:
 https://www.dropbox.com/s/cylt63v5w4zscl5/IMG_1566.jpg?dl=0


----------



## alatheus

gene6ix said:


> hi all
> 
> how to make the silicon without air bubble or less bubble ,could you please give me an advice .


 
 you can use a vacuum pump for that


----------



## piotrus-g

alatheus said:


> you can use a vacuum pump for that


 

 pressure pot rather than vacuum chamber.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

forcemajeure said:


> I have a question for anyone that had/have a UE900 or UE700.
> Those iems use a TWFK-60232
> this a a TWFK with a cap attached to it.
> 
> ...




The ue900 uses a 0.82 uf cap on the wbfk side of the twfk, the 22uf cap I talked about is used with the GK driver. 

I have a few twfk drivers from ue900 and I'll look at them when I get home and see if I can run some tests. I would just check to see which side you connected to, if you ran positive to the FK positive pad then it would be wired correctly like in the ue900. I removed the cap and tested which is where I got 0.82uf (also most favored cap for the twfk according to knowles). I think it is twfk 30017


----------



## Gene6ix

piotrus-g said:


> pressure pot rather than vacuum chamber.


 
  


alatheus said:


> you can use a vacuum pump for that


 
 thanks for the answer  So,how about vacuum hand pump is that work too ?


----------



## alatheus

it shou


gene6ix said:


> thanks for the answer  So,how about vacuum hand pump is that work too ?


 
 it should work I guess  give it a try and let us know  I'm also experiencing some issues with damn bubbles
  
 or maybe this thing could help, what do you think guys? will it be enough power?
  
 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DYA21PU/ref=ask_ql_qh_dp_hza


----------



## ForceMajeure

shilohsjustice said:


> The ue900 uses a 0.82 uf cap on the wbfk side of the twfk, the 22uf cap I talked about is used with the GK driver.
> 
> I have a few twfk drivers from ue900 and I'll look at them when I get home and see if I can run some tests. I would just check to see which side you connected to, if you ran positive to the FK positive pad then it would be wired correctly like in the ue900. I removed the cap and tested which is where I got 0.82uf (also most favored cap for the twfk according to knowles). I think it is twfk 30017


 
 Awesome, if this is the case then I think this kind of twfk is used as parts of the "big shot" 10 BA drivers CIEM


----------



## pc27618349

I'm planning my next set of IEMs and I wanted to emulate the setup on the Noble Savants so I got myself a pair of ED-30761s from AliExpress. The issue is that the drivers don't have ports on them! They have small slits where (presumably) the sound comes out but no cylindrical nozzles to connect tubing to. 
  
 Any idea what I can do with these?
  

  
  
Here's where they came from.


----------



## Flukes

You can cut your tubes and glue it over the top and side of the drivers.
  
 I think there was the tear down video of the savants and showed how Noble did it.


----------



## pc27618349

flukes said:


> You can cut your tubes and glue it over the top and side of the drivers.
> 
> I think there was the tear down video of the savants and showed how Noble did it.


 
  
 The original seems to have been made private by the poster... 
  
 Is cutting the tubes and gluing it over the top and side of the drivers the way that Noble did it? Such a massive risk of sealing the outlet port...


----------



## Flukes

I forgot the specifics, but Noble did something similar.
  
 It's on their thread where Noble responded to the tear down and gave a reason why they used that driver.
  
 I'm assuming the epoxy will seal it.


----------



## ForceMajeure

shrink tubing. like the original


----------



## Shilohsjustice

forcemajeure said:


> shrink tubing. like the original




I too have done heat shrink tubing.


----------



## Squirg

I'm wanting to upgrade my UV cure station.  Anyone out there made a good curing station or should I just stick with the nail dryer?  There are a zillion diff. UV bulbs on ebay and I know I need 365nm.  Any suggestions?
  
 Thanks


----------



## Squirg

Hey Guys.  I made some IEM's for a friend using Sonion's 1379 Accupass.  I did some measurements and I've got a weird dip around 1k.   
 Both right and left have the same dip.  Using 2mm tubing at about 20mm.  No dampers.
  
 What went wrong?  Any suggestions???


----------



## Squirg

squirg said:


> Hey Guys.  I made some IEM's for a friend using Sonion's 1379 Accupass.  I did some measurements and I've got a weird dip around 1k.
> Both right and left have the same dip.  Using 2mm tubing at about 20mm.  No dampers.
> 
> What went wrong?  Any suggestions???


 
 I just figured it out!  Rookie mistake.  I put a 1723 in my mic and tried wiring from the different tabs.  FYI - above is what happens when you connect 1723 Accupass by the two smaller tabs on top, not the two bigger ones in the middle!  Glad I could help


----------



## Xymordos

Glad you fixed it! What does the fixed measurements look like?


----------



## Squirg

xymordos said:


> Glad you fixed it! What does the fixed measurements look like?


 
 Here it is with correct wiring in gold:


----------



## Xymordos

Wow that does look a lot better than before!


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Hello all, quick question for everyone. I've been using Krystaloid for my duplicating material with great results, I've also used gelatin when I'm out of material with great results, however, I stumbled across information about agar powder which is a high strength gel similar to krystaloid and gelatin. Has anyone used agar for there colloid/duplicating material??

It appears to have the same prep as both hydrocolloid and gelatin and its readily available. I did order some just to see but thought I'd reach out to everyone on here as well.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

I've done some more research and it appears that Agar (also known as Kanten) is used as "reversible hydrocolloid material" and is used as a duplicating material. Strangely enough it looks exactly like Krystaloid when cure, I'll keep everyone posted as I did order some. It is much stronger than gelatin according to what I've read. Here is a picture of it.


----------



## pc27618349

shilohsjustice said:


> I've done some more research and it appears that Agar (also known as Kanten) is used as "reversible hydrocolloid material" and is used as a duplicating material. Strangely enough it looks exactly like Krystaloid when cure, I'll keep everyone posted as I did order some. It is much stronger than gelatin according to what I've read. Here is a picture of it.


 
  
 Looks interesting! The biggest concern is whether it's transparent to UV light but hopefully it'll work out. It'll be much cheaper too.
  
 Keep us posted!


----------



## MuZo2

shilohsjustice said:


> Hello all, quick question for everyone. I've been using Krystaloid for my duplicating material with great results, I've also used gelatin when I'm out of material with great results, however, I stumbled across information about agar powder which is a high strength gel similar to krystaloid and gelatin. Has anyone used agar for there colloid/duplicating material??
> 
> It appears to have the same prep as both hydrocolloid and gelatin and its readily available. I did order some just to see but thought I'd reach out to everyone on here as well.


 

 Used agar-agar from Chinese store as duplicating material if thats same like what you mentioned above.  You will need to get consistency right. Its same like gelatin.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

muzo2 said:


> Used agar-agar from Chinese store as duplicating material if thats same like what you mentioned above.  You will need to get consistency right. Its same like gelatin.




Yes that's the stuff!! Is it better than gelatin??


----------



## myemaildw

[VIDEO]https://youtu.be/_rbMX_K_QsI[/VIDEO]

https://youtu.be/_rbMX_K_QsI


----------



## renren234

Hey am thinking of pairing Ci22955 with WBFK30019 in parallel. LPF 10R 22uF (556.49Hz), HPF 3R 100uF (530.57Hz). Is that right? Any advice would be appreciated!


----------



## piotrus-g

renren234 said:


> Hey am thinking of pairing Ci22955 with WBFK30019 in parallel. LPF 10R 22uF (556.49Hz), HPF 3R 100uF (530.57Hz). Is that right? Any advice would be appreciated!


 
 In this configuration use CI as full range. WBFK is not really good for range below 4kHz. Also get 30095 instead of 30019 because -019 has no spout.


----------



## renren234

piotrus-g said:


> In this configuration use CI as full range. WBFK is not really good for range below 4kHz. Also get 30095 instead of 30019 because -019 has no spout.



Ahh I see. Should I put the HPF at 1kHz (3.3R 47uF) instead? And let Ci play the full range.


----------



## piotrus-g

renren234 said:


> Ahh I see. Should I put the HPF at 1kHz (3.3R 47uF) instead? And let Ci play the full range.


 
 Don't use resistor and just put 1.5uF cap on WBFK - that's around 5kHz cross-over point.
 CI into 2mm ID tubing with damper from 680-2200 - anything will work but will remove more and more midrange with higher resistance.


----------



## renren234

piotrus-g said:


> Don't use resistor and just put 1.5uF cap on WBFK - that's around 5kHz cross-over point.
> CI into 2mm ID tubing with damper from 680-2200 - anything will work but will remove more and more midrange with higher resistance.



Won't the Ci need a resistor to match WBFK output?


----------



## piotrus-g

renren234 said:


> Won't the Ci need a resistor to match WBFK output?


 

 I was sorta thinking about resistor, mostly becuase whole setup will have very low impedance (and be very sensitive) But I think CI and WBFK would match. WBFK has very high output over 3kHz, And CI starts to roll-off at 3kHz.
 If you get too much bass, there you'll have your answer.


----------



## Squirg

Anyone had good results with acrylic dye's?  I think I remember someone on this thread using dye from Hobby Lobby.  I can't justify buying Egger in diff. colors now so I would like to mix on an individual basis.  What are my options?  Does it degrade the strength?
  
 Thanks HFers!


----------



## Shilohsjustice

squirg said:


> Anyone had good results with acrylic dye's?  I think I remember someone on this thread using dye from Hobby Lobby.  I can't justify buying Egger in diff. colors now so I would like to mix on an individual basis.  What are my options?  Does it degrade the strength?
> 
> Thanks HFers!




I have been using acrylic artist ink with exceptional results, this was a tip from Briancortez who has branched out and started up http://www.sizzle-audio.com

It mixes pretty well and colors are vibrant.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Here is the latest addition to my IEM Obsession;


----------



## MuZo2

Is it with gas chamber?


----------



## renren234

piotrus-g said:


> I was sorta thinking about resistor, mostly becuase whole setup will have very low impedance (and be very sensitive) But I think CI and WBFK would match. WBFK has very high output over 3kHz, And CI starts to roll-off at 3kHz.
> If you get too much bass, there you'll have your answer.


 Understood. Just one last question. What's the formula you used for calculation? Seems like I'm doing something wrong here.
1/(2*pi*R*C), 1/(2*3.1415*1*0.0000015)? Doesn't equate to 5k. Or is the resistance from the Ci calculated in too?


----------



## piotrus-g

renren234 said:


> Understood. Just one last question. What's the formula you used for calculation? Seems like I'm doing something wrong here.
> 1/(2*pi*R*C), 1/(2*3.1415*1*0.0000015)? Doesn't equate to 5k. Or is the resistance from the Ci calculated in too?


 
 I used online calculator and used WBFK impedance curve to find correct spot. WBFK has around 20-22 Ohms around 5-5.3kHz so if you use 1.5uF you should get cut-off frquency at that range.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

muzo2 said:


> Is it with gas chamber?




No, I still have to go glycerin bath to fully cure. It has given me a much more consistent cure though, it has 10 bulbs!


----------



## jbr1971

shilohsjustice said:


> No, I still have to go glycerin bath to fully cure. It has given me a much more consistent cure though, it has 10 bulbs!


 
  
 Interesting. From what I read about the Polylux, it says it removes all the oxygen so no baths are required. Or do you have a different model that does not remove the oxygen?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

jbr1971 said:


> Interesting. From what I read about the Polylux, it says it removes all the oxygen so no baths are required. Or do you have a different model that does not remove the oxygen?




This is an older model and does not remove the oxygen. In fact it's so old I can't find any information on it.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

shilohsjustice said:


> This is an older model and does not remove the oxygen. In fact it's so old I can't find any information on it.




It was pulled from service from a hearing aid lab. It cost $150 shipped. The only thing I had to do was get an up converter to go from 110v to 220v $39.99 from Amazon. Works better than I expected.


----------



## Squirg

Just got this stuff in...
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/170708941257?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
  
 Apparently, this is what many are using to coat impressions.  Not been very happy with Paraffin wax.  Going to heat it up tonight and coat a few sets of impressions.  I let you know how it goes!
  
 Wish me luck...


----------



## Shilohsjustice

The polylux 1000 and newer models remove oxygen during cure. Like in the picture below. 




This person has had this on eBay for a long long time, someone could probably offer them less than asking and they would take it as its been up for so long.


----------



## MuZo2

squirg said:


> Just got this stuff in...
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/170708941257?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
> 
> ...


 

 I have same.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Hello all, it's been awhile since I posted anything I've been working on. 

Here is a single driver setup I did for a friend, I used a BK-28562 from a set of shure e3's they had that were broken. A 680ohm damper, and my new universal shell design that I made myself (not a clone).


----------



## Squirg

shilohsjustice said:


> The polylux 1000 and newer models remove oxygen during cure. Like in the picture below.





> Dude!  I need this!!!  Does it require a gas hookup of some kind?
> 
> 
> This person has had this on eBay for a long long time, someone could probably offer them less than asking and they would take it as its been up for so long.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

No, it's a sealed unit. Doesn't need a gas hook up at all.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Squirg, did you get it??? The listing just came down, it's literally been up for over a month.


----------



## Squirg

shilohsjustice said:


> Squirg, did you get it??? The listing just came down, it's literally been up for over a month


 
 Dammit!  Nope, but I already had my script planned out for my wife when I got home!


----------



## Shilohsjustice

squirg said:


> Dammit!  Nope, but I already had my script planned out for my wife when I got home!




I rotate through scripts weekly! Like I bought drivers to do a Savant clone, I said it was for a friend. Secretly its for me as I liked the Savants but didn't have $600 to shell out. Instead $42 dollars for some drivers, hahahaha I love DIY!!!!!!!


----------



## Shilohsjustice

I'll bet someone here on the forum who seen my post bought it though!!!


----------



## mikkelmmk93

Hi everyone
 Where can I get the coloured litz wire? Like the metallic green, red, blue and such - preferably in EU.


----------



## Squirg

mikkelmmk93 said:


> Hi everyone
> Where can I get the coloured litz wire? Like the metallic green, red, blue and such - preferably in EU.


 
 I've had good luck with this stuff.  The coating is a little thicker but not much.  Just make sure you burn it off when tinning the ends...
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/T028G-10m-GREEN-0-28mm-Teflon-Micro-Litz-Wire-Solder-High-temperature-10m-1pcs/191957441710?_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D39218%26meid%3D2f7080f206b64f1bb1a30a4b07b42f4e%26pid%3D100011%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D11%26sd%3D191934616023


----------



## mikkelmmk93

squirg said:


> I've had good luck with this stuff.  The coating is a little thicker but not much.  Just make sure you burn it off when tinning the ends...
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/T028G-10m-GREEN-0-28mm-Teflon-Micro-Litz-Wire-Solder-High-temperature-10m-1pcs/191957441710?_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D39218%26meid%3D2f7080f206b64f1bb1a30a4b07b42f4e%26pid%3D100011%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D11%26sd%3D191934616023


 
 Thanks - but does it look "metallic" like in this photo? http://i58.tinypic.com/255o12c.jpg 
 I know it is really silly to get one specific type of cable - but I've always thought that it looked amazing.


----------



## ForceMajeure

mikkelmmk93 said:


> Thanks - but does it look "metallic" like in this photo? http://i58.tinypic.com/255o12c.jpg
> I know it is really silly to get one specific type of cable - but I've always thought that it looked amazing.


 
 If you are willing to pay the price, then go for estron wires, that's what you are looking for.
 https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/0-4-mm-Tinned-Copper-Silver-Plated-Wire-Hearing-Aid-Accessories-Connector-Music-Earphone-Receiver-Connecting/830007_32401299542.html


----------



## Squirg

The gold is the real deal. Silver and black are from eBay.


----------



## myemaildw

anyone can help soldering four wire cable to 2.5mm four pole jack for cayin n5 balanced? I just need to figure what cable goes where? I have occ silver plated four wire cable with 3.5 3 pole


----------



## Squirg

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Astron-XL3-Dental-Lab-Curing-Oven-for-Light-Cure-Material-Polymerization-/361735375925?hash=item54391bcc35:g:lpgAAOSw5ClXxHcV
  
 Anyone know if this is a sealed chamber thereby doing away with the sticky inhibition layer?


----------



## mikkelmmk93

squirg said:


> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Astron-XL3-Dental-Lab-Curing-Oven-for-Light-Cure-Material-Polymerization-/361735375925?hash=item54391bcc35:g:lpgAAOSw5ClXxHcV
> 
> Anyone know if this is a sealed chamber thereby doing away with the sticky inhibition layer?


 
 From the pictures it does not look like a sealed chamber.
 May I ask what the sticky inhibition layer is?


----------



## Squirg

mikkelmmk93 said:


> From the pictures it does not look like a sealed chamber.
> May I ask what the sticky inhibition layer is?


 
 When you cure UV acrylic in open air, you get a greasy/sticky "inhibition" layer.  Some professional uv ovens like the Dreve unit a few posts up, remove oxygen so you don't get that.


----------



## piotrus-g

squirg said:


> When you cure UV acrylic in open air, you get a greasy/sticky "inhibition" layer.  Some professional uv ovens like the Dreve unit a few posts up, remove oxygen so you don't get that.


 

 I think there may be a misconception about how "removing oxygen" actually works.
 To remove oxygen you need unit like Dreves Polylux 1000N or Eggers EL1+N - the "N" stands for Nitrous. Those units operate by injecting N into the curing chamber, replacing Oxygen as oxygen is responsible for inhibitation layer.
 It's nowhere near what can be considered as DIY equipment. You need a licenced professional (at least in Europe) to connect the gas bottle to the curing unit. N bottles are 1. hugh and heavy 2. very very expensive. 3. could be deadly when mishandled.
 Post curring solutions from Dreve/Egger will give you perfect results just as if the shell was curred in N atmosphere.
 It's not worth risk or cost for small projects.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Also most dental polymerization chambers/ovens only direct uv light downwards, also with limited reflective interiors as most dental procedures will need solid polymerization or single layer polymerization. Not hollow meaning they do not us a uv blocking plate. Just food for thought, I too looked into dental cure units.


----------



## MuZo2

Lot of iems and ciem use DTEC but I dont find mention of it on Knowles pro audio website also legendary ED29689 is missing. Are these drivers now discontinued ?
 http://www.knowles.com/eng/Applications/Specialty-components/Hearing-aid-components/Balanced-Armature-Products


----------



## Squirg

Am I wrong in thinking that resistor polarity doesn't matter and capacitor polarity does?  Is so, does the positive end hook up the source/connector or to the BA?
  
 Thanks


----------



## piotrus-g

squirg said:


> Am I wrong in thinking that resistor polarity doesn't matter and capacitor polarity does?  Is so, does the positive end hook up the source/connector or to the BA?
> 
> Thanks


 
 with ceramic cap it doesn't matter, for most tantals as well (i think).


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Here is a pic of the Savant clone I've been working on!


----------



## mikkelmmk93

shilohsjustice said:


> Here is a pic of the Savant clone I've been working on!


 


>


 
 May I ask what it consists of?


----------



## FUYU

mikkelmmk93 said:


> May I ask what it consists of?




Knowles ED29689
1500Ω damper
20Ω resistor in series
2mm/3mm tubing length

Knowles ED30761
2200Ω damper
1.5mm/5.5mm tubing length

...could be wrong though.


----------



## mikkelmmk93

fuyu said:


> Knowles ED29689
> 1500Ω damper
> 20Ω resistor in series
> 2mm/3mm tubing length
> ...


 
 I can't find any spec sheets for that ED30761 though.
 The ED29689 does look kinda "bad" though. But I guess it is being used as woofer here so perhaps the region the datasheet don't show is good.


----------



## ForceMajeure

mikkelmmk93 said:


> I can't find any spec sheets for that ED30761 though.
> The ED29689 does look kinda "bad" though. But I guess it is being used as woofer here so perhaps the region the datasheet don't show is good.


 
 Knowles ED30761 is used as the bass driver, it have no spout so the tube is shrink tube.
 The ED29689 is "leveled" to the ED30761 spl by using a 20ohm resistor.
 Both drivers are us as full range meaning no electrical filtering, only dampers and resistor in series.


----------



## FUYU

mikkelmmk93 said:


> I can't find any spec sheets for that ED30761 though.
> 
> The ED29689 does look kinda "bad" though. But I guess it is being used as woofer here so perhaps the region the datasheet don't show is good.




Here's a spec sheet for the ED30761: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/23865811/ED-30761-000.pdf


----------



## ForceMajeure

20 ohm resistor in series to the ED29689 is not a low pass but used just as for lowering the spl full range so it matches the spl of the ED30761.
  
  


fuyu said:


> Here's a spec sheet for the ED30761: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/23865811/ED-30761-000.pdf


 
 That's the specs. thanks
  
 here are some pics of the drivers https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/Free-Shipping-2pcs-Professional-DIY-Earphones-ED-30761-Experience-Balance-Armature-Speaker-Earphone-Receiver-from-Knowles/830007_32687339036.html


----------



## FUYU

forcemajeure said:


> 20 ohm resistor in series to the ED29689 is not a low pass but used just as for lowering the spl full range so it matches the spl of the ED30761.
> 
> 
> That's the specs. thanks
> ...




Yeah, I just noticed. Corrected it.


----------



## ForceMajeure

shilohsjustice said:


> Here is a pic of the Savant clone I've been working on!


 
  
 How does it sound?
  
  


myemaildw said:


> anyone can help soldering four wire cable to 2.5mm four pole jack for cayin n5 balanced? I just need to figure what cable goes where? I have occ silver plated four wire cable with 3.5 3 pole


 
  
 Balanced 2.5mm will have 4 individual cables, one right positive and on right ground, one left positive and one left ground.
 depending on the 2.5mm plug you will buy you might need to solder them on different places but usually it goes like that
  
 
  
 Best to check continuity with a multimeter to be sure where to solder, like what ring is connected to what on the "hidden" part of the plug...
  
 There is a diy cable thread also you can ask there they have a lot more experience than me http://www.head-fi.org/t/676402/diy-cable-questions-and-comments-thread/5865#post_12881592
  
 Also it looks like different players/amps will require different configurations f.e Astell and Kern 

 More info here http://www.diyaudioblog.com/2016/02/headphone-connectors-pins-pinouts-for.html
  So you should take into consideration where you want to plug your cable also
  
  


fuyu said:


> Yeah, I just noticed. Corrected it.


  
  No problem, we don't mind here this is a friendly place


----------



## Shilohsjustice

forcemajeure said:


> How does it sound?




Awesome, I'm rather intrigued by its large sound! Simple can be better, and this setup has proven that! Has a very spacious sound and is well balanced, it would be a great setup for mixing sound or as a reference monitor as it's easy to listen too. The drivers still need to go through burn in but I had them in for a couple hours last night and my ears didn't fatigue at all. I would highly recommend trying this setup out as it's an easy build. I was also able to stretch my acoustical tubing around the tip of the ED-30761 by heating it up and expanding it with tweezers. You can make that out if you look closely at the pic.


----------



## mikkelmmk93

forcemajeure said:


> Knowles ED30761 is used as the bass driver, it have no spout so the tube is shrink tube.
> The ED29689 is "leveled" to the ED30761 spl by using a 20ohm resistor.
> Both drivers are us as full range meaning no electrical filtering, only dampers and resistor in series.


 
 Hmm, the datasheet I looked apparently was for the wrong driver.
 Is the following image correct?


----------



## ForceMajeure

yes


----------



## mikkelmmk93

mikkelmmk93 said:


>


 
  


forcemajeure said:


> yes


 
 So eh, where does the treble come from then ?


----------



## ForceMajeure

Those measurments were made with the IEC126 coupler and are accurate from 200hz up to  5khz according to Knowles.So you have to take this into consideration.
 also the ED 29689 is the same driver used in the etymotic er4 so it have a some treble output.
  
 The thing is that most BA drivers don't have high extension treble with enough spl from 10k and above.
 Some drivers are design to output more spl at treble ranges but most of them don't have a strong presence at high treble ranges.
 There are some things that can be done to extend the treble like horn shaped nozzle like in the fitear togo 111 that uses a titanium acoustic horn.


----------



## mikkelmmk93

forcemajeure said:


> Those measurments were made with the IEC126 coupler and are accurate from 200hz up to  5khz according to Knowles.So you have to take this into consideration.
> also the ED 29689 is the same driver used in the etymotic er4 so it have a some treble output.
> 
> The thing is that most BA drivers don't have high extension treble with enough spl from 10k and above.
> Some drivers are design to output more spl at treble ranges but most of them don't have a strong presence at high treble ranges


 
 Ah ok thanks!
 Well guess I can only get smarter by asking then 
 Hmm, so how does one get good treble response? By using a "dedicated" BA as tweeter - ie. one that is suited for that? or?


----------



## ForceMajeure

I would suggest to hear it first, Have you heard the etymotic? Lots of people will tell that they have enough treble for them.
  
 There is the WBFK SERIES from knowles that are design to give high treble outpout.
  
 Also when making an highpass filter on the appropriate driver it will give you less impedance in the treble range of it, allowing "more output" at that range because of the impedance characteristic of balanced armature that is not linear and usually rise at higher frequencies. Making an highpass filter will lower the overall impedance of the driver allowing only one part of it to be used. Less resistance on the higher range thus more output on that range.
  
 I would highly suggest to hear the driver though. Unfortunatly you cannot draw conclusions about how the final product will sound by looking at those knowles graph's sheets and try to visually add them.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Using a "dedicated tweeter" would assist in achieving that for sure like a twfk or wbfk with a high pass filter. 

Full range BA's are capable of achieving exceptional treble. The ED-29689 is a great sounding example. The ED-30761 and ED-29689 combo in my opinion sound hands down better than my um pro 30's and ue900s and both of those have a dedicated tweeters.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

shilohsjustice said:


> Using a "dedicated tweeter" would assist in achieving that for sure like a twfk or wbfk with a high pass filter.
> 
> Full range BA's are capable of achieving exceptional treble. The ED-29689 is a great sounding example. The ED-30761 and ED-29689 combo in my opinion sound hands down better than my um pro 30's and ue900s and both of those have a dedicated tweeters.




Not to mention it was assembled by me , makes me appreciate it more!!


----------



## ForceMajeure

shilohsjustice said:


> Not to mention it was assembled by me , makes me appreciate it more!!


 
 You make me want to buy those 30761


----------



## Shilohsjustice

You won't regret it!!!!!!


----------



## mikkelmmk93

forcemajeure said:


> I would suggest to hear it first, Have you heard the etymotic? Lots of people will tell that they have enough treble for them.
> 
> There is the WBFK SERIES from knowles that are design to give high treble outpout.
> 
> ...


 
 No I have not - though I've read that they should be quite good.
 Isn't the WBFK the driver thats used in the TWFK?
  
  


shilohsjustice said:


> Using a "dedicated tweeter" would assist in achieving that for sure like a twfk or wbfk with a high pass filter.
> 
> Full range BA's are capable of achieving exceptional treble. The ED-29689 is a great sounding example. The ED-30761 and ED-29689 combo in my opinion sound hands down better than my um pro 30's and ue900s and both of those have a dedicated tweeters.


 
 Would you say that they have better treble than a dedicated setup or just that some of them are exceptional and some implementations of a "tweeter" just simply is poor?

 With all the knowledge here, what setup would you recommend for me?
 Sound pref: bass must be able to extend all the way down to limit of hearing, preferably lower (I like soundtracks, and Intersteller just sounds better with very deep bass). Extension in treble all the way up, with good detailing. I like to be able to hear every little detail in the music.
 The midrange needs to be there, but not over nor under emphasized.
 Bass can be a bit over emphasized.
 Same with treble.

 Perhaps just a GK-31732 build?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

mikkelmmk93 said:


> No I have not - though I've read that they should be quite good.
> Isn't the WBFK the driver thats used in the TWFK?
> 
> 
> ...




The GK is a nice plug and play setup that has good bass extension using a red damper. I have connected a second CI-22955 to the same low pass on the GK which gave a nice low end roar.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

So............ I like the sound of the cloned savants so much, I put some other projects, particularly a 6 driver and a 4 driver, on hold to cook this custom clear set up.


----------



## FUYU

shilohsjustice said:


> So............ I like the sound of the cloned savants so much, I put some other projects, particularly a 6 driver and a 4 driver, on hold to cook this custom clear set up.




How did you add the tubing for the ED-30761?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

fuyu said:


> How did you add the tubing for the ED-30761?


















I used heat shrink in this pair just to hide the glue I used to adhere the tubing to the driver. (it turned white and I wanted to hide that. I had rubbing alcohol still in the tube which turned it white.)


----------



## mikkelmmk93

shilohsjustice said:


> So............ I like the sound of the cloned savants so much, I put some other projects, particularly a 6 driver and a 4 driver, on hold to cook this custom clear set up.



Looks good! Do you use estron wires?


----------



## ForceMajeure

mikkelmmk93 said:


> No I have not - though I've read that they should be quite good.
> Isn't the WBFK the driver thats used in the TWFK?
> 
> 
> ...


 
GK-31732 I got confused 
  
 GQ-30783 is the driver setup used in the audio technica ath-im02. Very well received IEM with a neutral sound signature and good extension.
 Here are Tyll's measurments for it http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/AudioTechnicaATHIM02.pdf


----------



## Shilohsjustice

mikkelmmk93 said:


> Looks good! Do you use estron wires?




Yes, I switched over to estron wires about a year ago.


----------



## briancortez2112

shilohsjustice said:


> So............ I like the sound of the cloned savants so much, I put some other projects, particularly a 6 driver and a 4 driver, on hold to cook this custom clear set up.


 
 Looks great man!
 Loving your work, keep it up!


----------



## ignotus

Hi guys,
  
 Just an update to say that the last parts for my build finally arrived today (GK-31732 driver and universal Shure replica shells) and I managed to put it all together. Thoroughly enjoying them! Thanks again for all the information and tips!


----------



## Squirg

I am reshelling a friends broken pair of UE5's.  He wanted to add a low driver so I added a Sonion 2015 in series but I'm not really seeing any improvement in sound sig.  I tried in parallel but had a huge phase cancellation.  Both low drivers (the UE looks like a CI-22955) are glued together into one tube with a 2200 filter.  This pic shows left and right electronics before installing...
  

  
 The tubes are pretty long (approx. 50mm) so maybe it will change for the better after I install into the shell.  Any suggestions?
  
 Thanks!


----------



## mikkelmmk93

shilohsjustice said:


> Yes, I switched over to estron wires about a year ago.


 
 Just for the looks of it?
 Cuz' thats the reason I would switch.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

mikkelmmk93 said:


> Just for the looks of it?
> 
> Cuz' thats the reason I would switch.




Ease of use, the estron wire is flexible and thin enough to work with. I wanted to get as close the real thing as I could. In doing so found that I could get the real thing.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

squirg said:


> I am reshelling a friends broken pair of UE5's.  He wanted to add a low driver so I added a Sonion 2015 in series but I'm not really seeing any improvement in sound sig.  I tried in parallel but had a huge phase cancellation.  Both low drivers (the UE looks like a CI-22955) are glued together into one tube with a 2200 filter.  This pic shows left and right electronics before installing...
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Hmm, does the impedence of the sonion driver match the CI drivers? Will like change once it's sealed in the shell, did you get to do any more testing? Did you end up figuring it out?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

I finished up the batch of single driver reshells, in doing them I was able to improve on my technique. Here is a couple pics. I think these are the clearest and best shells I've made to date.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

ignotus said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Just an update to say that the last parts for my build finally arrived today (GK-31732 driver and universal Shure replica shells) and I managed to put it all together. Thoroughly enjoying them! Thanks again for all the information and tips!




Great job!!! The GK's are every bit Pro drivers!!!! In fact HearWave in ear monitors out of the U.K. uses both the GK and GQ drivers, they have recording artist using them and charge over $750 for a custom molded set!!!! No longer would I consider them just an easy way to do an IEM, they are a true contender!!!! Great work!!!!


----------



## mattmatt

Man, this is just straight up professional! What driver did you use for this reshell? What did you change with your technique to achieve these results? I'll follow your steps from your pasts posts when I get my hands on UV resin. 

Hey, if you won't mind, is this what you used for the Savant clones? 

"Knowles ED29689
1500Ω damper
20Ω resistor in series
2mm/3mm tubing length

Knowles ED30761
2200Ω damper
1.5mm/5.5mm tubing length"

from FUYU's post


----------



## mikkelmmk93

shilohsjustice said:


> Ease of use, the estron wire is flexible and thin enough to work with. I wanted to get as close the real thing as I could. In doing so found that I could get the real thing.



Ah ok.
Where do you buy it?


----------



## mikkelmmk93

shilohsjustice said:


> I finished up the batch of single driver reshells, in doing them I was able to improve on my technique. Here is a couple pics. I think these are the clearest and best shells I've made to date.



Looks good man!
How did you model the shells?


----------



## wz2000

Hi all! I'd like to share my creation with you guys.
  
 A 4th order Linkwitz-Riley active 3-way crossover for IEMs. Now that’s a mouthful 
  
 It uses a fully analog active crossover, giving a much improved performance over passive “crossovers” normally found in IEMs, including steeper roll off into the cutoff region, no phase shifts and consistent filter performance regardless of load impedance. Of course the downside is having the extra bulk of the separate crossover housing (I used a Hammond 1455), but many folks use similar sized headphone amps anyway. Runs off a single Li-Ion battery, the battery life is somewhere around 60 hours. Very good filter performance together with low noise, low distortion make for a very well performing crossover unit.
  
 The IEMs themselves contain a CI, DTEC & TWFK combo. It would be possible to use any combination of drivers, as long a custom cable with 4 conductors per earphone is used. The output of the crossover has two 4-pole 3.5mm connectors to get a total of 3 outputs and signal return per channel.
 I posted a previous prototype here a long time ago, but this improvement has several changes, including an integrated usb dac, layout pcb layout improvement, better emphasis on component selection etc.
  
 In my (arguably subjective) opinion the sound is fantastic, but I still wish test different combinations of BA drivers with it. I still have to work on my technique for making IEM shells.


----------



## ForceMajeure

This is nuts! Bravo!
 Looks like you soldered everything on the board.
 So much info I have to process, I don't even know what to ask.
 You have implemented a dac amp in it?
  
 I am sure those guys are proud


----------



## The Life

wz2000 said:


> Hi all! I'd like to share my creation with you guys.
> 
> A 4th order Linkwitz-Riley active 3-way crossover for IEMs. Now that’s a mouthful
> 
> ...




Much respect. That is the most inspiring thing (DIY-wise) I've seen in a long time. Makes me feel lazy and unimaginative


----------



## Xymordos

I would really love to hear that o.o 
  
 It looks totally awesome!


----------



## MuZo2

wz2000 said:


> Hi all! I'd like to share my creation with you guys.


 






 I am sure it sounds fantastic. Very well done Sir.


----------



## ignotus

shilohsjustice said:


> Great job!!! The GK's are every bit Pro drivers!!!! In fact HearWave in ear monitors out of the U.K. uses both the GK and GQ drivers, they have recording artist using them and charge over $750 for a custom molded set!!!! No longer would I consider them just an easy way to do an IEM, they are a true contender!!!! Great work!!!!


 Thanks! Well, mine is probably one of the simplest builds in the entire thread, not really much skill involved at all; what really sets you guys' work apart are the custom shells - that's where the true craftsmanship is. 
Yes I agree, the GK driver setup does truly sound awesome, and when I read about the prices IEMs that use them can fetch, it just makes my smug-o-meter shoot up, haha! Again, I'm very glad I found this thread and thanks for the encouragement and tips - keep up the good work!


----------



## wz2000

forcemajeure said:


> This is nuts! Bravo!
> Looks like you soldered everything on the board.
> So much info I have to process, I don't even know what to ask.
> You have implemented a dac amp in it?
> ...


 
  
 Yes, all hand soldered. It is a two sided board and the bottom side has almost as many components as the top layer . And yes it has an integrated DAC, based on the PCM5102A.


----------



## mikkelmmk93

I was wondering if any of you would know what driver thats used in the PFE 121?
 I've found this photo but for some reason I can't find it.


----------



## ForceMajeure

mikkelmmk93 said:


> I was wondering if any of you would know what driver thats used in the PFE 121?
> I've found this photo but for some reason I can't find it.


 
 Sonion 23X75


----------



## mikkelmmk93

forcemajeure said:


> Sonion 23X75


 
 Thanks!
 Wow, I really guess that it is Monday morning here  (I was trying to read it during my morning commute but for some reason I simply couldn't).
 But really, thank you.
 I've had the 122's and really loved the sound, but they were stolen 2 months ago.
 That was the reason I got in to DIY CIEM's.
 ATM I am using a sonion 1723 driver - but I miss the treble extension and clarity of the 23x75.
 Think I will order the 23x75 and add a subwoofer to it - perhaps the 38AM007mi/8a - it should be their BA driver with the most and lowest bass.


----------



## MuZo2

Where are you buying Sonion drivers?


----------



## ForceMajeure

To everybody in this thread Same question as MuZo2.
 Where are you buying Sonion drivers?
  
 So far I had luck finding some on toabao, I know colsanmicro.com have them too but it is more complicated to buy in small quantities.


----------



## mikkelmmk93

Hi All.
Sø ive got the sonion 1723 in both vented, non-vented and no crossover version coming and the sonion 2323 and 2389.
I was thinking something in the likes of doing a build with either 2323 or 2389 and adding a woofer - perhaps the Knowles CI, what's your thought about that? Thought behind the design is to create a CIEMs with extender FR in both ends, to be semi natural or slight v shape, and to have authority down low - useful for soundtrack music and such.

And another build with just a 1723 - gotta test which one I like the most.

And a build with the 1723 and a 2323 or 2389 to extend HF.

What is your thoughts on this?
And the 1723 non eq can be added either as full range, tweeter or woofer depending on the setup.


----------



## mattmatt

Creative Aurvana uses 2323 capped combined with a 2015 so I guess CI with 2323 would be a good match too. 

UE sf5 pro used a propriety 2300 and 2000 so I guess a 2015 and 2389 would be a good match as well with 2389 connected half coil. 

Hey by the way, where did you get your 2389s and 2323s?


----------



## mikkelmmk93

mattmatt said:


> Creative Aurvana uses 2323 capped combined with a 2015 so I guess CI with 2323 would be a good match too.
> 
> UE sf5 pro used a propriety 2300 and 2000 so I guess a 2015 and 2389 would be a good match as well with 2389 connected half coil.
> 
> Hey by the way, where did you get your 2389s and 2323s?



Thanks! As much as I'd like to tell you I really can't - I'm sorry!
But if there are some specific model that you would like I could.perhaps arrange a group buy. It has to be 25 units at least of each model though.


----------



## Squirg

shilohsjustice said:


> Hmm, does the impedence of the sonion driver match the CI drivers? Will like change once it's sealed in the shell, did you get to do any more testing? Did you end up figuring it out?


----------



## Squirg

squirg said:


> I am reshelling a friends broken pair of UE5's.  He wanted to add a low driver so I added a Sonion 2015 in series but I'm not really seeing any improvement in sound sig.  I tried in parallel but had a huge phase cancellation.  Both low drivers (the UE looks like a CI-22955) are glued together into one tube with a 2200 filter.  This pic shows left and right electronics before installing...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Sorry for random posts.  My computer is being a turd.
  
 The sound of the 2015 with CI was really muddy plus I ended up killing the UE CI driver, so I decided to change directions.  I ended up using a Sonion 3800 with a 10ohm resistor in parallel.  That did the trick!  Thanks!


----------



## Squirg

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ESPE-Visio-Beta-vario-/262635043346?autorefresh=true
  
 Really bummed I didn't win this!  $450 is a bit steep for me...


----------



## Shilohsjustice

squirg said:


> http://www.ebay.com/itm/ESPE-Visio-Beta-vario-/262635043346?autorefresh=true
> 
> Really bummed I didn't win this!  $450 is a bit steep for me...




Built in vacuum, that look sweet!! That is a shame you missed out on it.


----------



## Squirg

shilohsjustice said:


> I've done some more research and it appears that Agar (also known as Kanten) is used as "reversible hydrocolloid material" and is used as a duplicating material. Strangely enough it looks exactly like Krystaloid when cure, I'll keep everyone posted as I did order some. It is much stronger than gelatin according to what I've read. Here is a picture of it.


 
 Any word on this stuff?  Thinking about trying it out...


----------



## rggz

My first project in progress: an Etymotic style shape + single RAB-32257. 

 I've printed a 3D shape created by some user, the original file in here, now I'll finish sanding and paint it to try looks a bit more refined. Also, I'm just trying to figure out how is the best way to seal/filling up the armature in this cylinder, will something like that with blue tack works fine? If someone has a better idea would be helpful too!
  


Spoiler: 3D printed


----------



## mikkelmmk93

rggz said:


> My first project in progress: an Etymotic style shape + single RAB-32257.
> 
> I've printed a 3D shape created by some user, the original file in here, now I'll finish sanding and paint it to try looks a bit more refined. Also, I'm just trying to figure out how is the best way to seal/filling up the armature in this cylinder, will something like that with blue tack works fine? If someone has a better idea would be helpful too!
> 
> ...


 
 Looks nice!
 Did you account for the fact that the RAB is smaller than the ED?
 Other than that just use some epoxy if you dont want to be able to remove, or use some foam material - like the one we see people here use when using replacement shells from westone.
 Did you print it in ABS? If so, then I'd suggest smoothing it with acetone - toxic fumes yes, but that's just the nature of acetone, go do it outside


----------



## rggz

mikkelmmk93 said:


> Looks nice!
> *Did you account for the fact that the RAB is smaller than the ED?*
> Other than that just use some epoxy if you dont want to be able to remove, or use some foam material - like the one we see people here use when using replacement shells from westone.
> Did you print it in ABS? If so, then I'd suggest smoothing it with acetone - toxic fumes yes, but that's just the nature of acetone, go do it outside


 

 Haha, yes! Perhaps this is a good thing in my case because this 3D file isn't finished yet so the size could be smaller for ED (also the result will variable depending on which settings/printer you use).

 Indeed, I've seen excellent results with acetone and people using an old _rice cooker _to do that but atm I haven't this material in my hands, then I'll use some sandpaper 400 to ~1200 I'm hoping that will look good as well after finished. Thank you for the tips!


----------



## mikkelmmk93

rggz said:


> Haha, yes! Perhaps this is a good thing in my case because this 3D file isn't finished yet so the size could be smaller for ED (also the result will variable depending on which settings/printer you use).
> 
> Indeed, I've seen excellent results with acetone and people using an old _rice cooker _to do that but atm I haven't this material in my hands, then I'll use some sandpaper 400 to ~1200 I'm hoping that will look good as well after finished. Thank you for the tips!


 
 Gonna be honest here - skip the rice cooker!
 Just get a container, some paper towels, tinfoil and you are good to go!
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2lm6FuaAWI there you go.
 It will be a better finish with acetone than with sandpaper.


----------



## omgflyingbanana

rggz said:


> I've printed a 3D shape created by some user


 
 Hi that's me lol. If you're going use acetone vapor be sure to do it before you put the armature in since the vapor will mess up the delicate internals. Might seem obvious but just wanna make sure.
  
 This design is unfinished because there's so much I can do without an actual physical armature to test fittings. Hopefully rggz can provide some nice info.
  
 Also, this design feature only a fixed cable but I'm going to see if maybe I can add a wide straight hole to take an MMCX connector.


----------



## techadd

not sure if this was covered before, but the multi colored custom artwork i see on the faceplates? are the ciem manufactueres using deskjet or bubblejet printers on a high quality sticker papers and acrylic them over on the faceplate to get that result? cause i have still yet to come across any laser marking machines thats able to do that??


----------



## tatster

I've been reading this thread with much interest over the last week or so and am super impressed with the knowledge and skill you guys have. 

I'm busy researching IEM's for my church and as a result of this thread about to embark on making my own CIEMs as an experiment. 
So I have a couple of questions at this stage. 

Shells - I'm leaning towards US acrylic as one of my daughters already has a UV lamp for doing her nails. My question is, approximately how much Magic Glos (Lisa Pavelka) would I need to make 2 shells? 

Secondly, drivers! I realise there is so much choice and experimentation to do here. Is the 31732 a good all rounder as a starting point? 
If so, what about dampers... just get the drivers and try them raw or get a selection of dampers to pick and mix with? 

Thanks.


----------



## renren234

tatster said:


> I've been reading this thread with much interest over the last week or so and am super impressed with the knowledge and skill you guys have.
> 
> I'm busy researching Ian's for my church and as a result of this thread about to embark on making my own CIEMs as an experiment.
> So I have a couple of questions at this stage.
> ...




If you didn't know, the Lisa pavelka uv magic gloss works very different from the other kind of uv resin. 1oz can probably make about 2pair of shell. The Magic gloss is not reusable, so do not pour the leftover back in the bottle. I poured the leftover back in my 1oz bottle and kind of spoiled the whole bottle.. But from what I had left seems enough for a second pair, not 100% sure tho. Have you used it before?


----------



## tatster

Thanks @renren234

No, I haven't used it before so advice like yours is really helpful. 

I'm in the UK and have found sources of UV resin quite limited/expensive. 
Another option I think is http://www.metalclay.co.uk/uv-crystal-resin/ which appears to be pretty similar to Magic Glos


----------



## MuZo2

Used KZ ZS3 shells for Shure 530


----------



## renren234

tatster said:


> Thanks @renren234
> 
> No, I haven't used it before so advice like yours is really helpful.
> 
> ...




I could share with you what I know about magic gloss and hope your first set of shells would already be usable! Can't commend much on the crystal resin tho


----------



## tatster

That'd be fantastic.
  
 I think I'll probably try Magic Glos in the first instance as others have tried it.
 So anything you can share would be greatfully received.
  
 Thanks.


----------



## ForceMajeure

muzo2 said:


> Used KZ ZS3 shells for Shure 530


 
  
 Nice!
 How comfortable do you find that KZ shell, does it stick out too much from you ears?
 What 2 pin config do KZ uses 0.78mm, 0.75mm? Are you able to use different 2 pin cables with it?


----------



## MuZo2

I haven't tried different cables but some other members did use UE cables.
KZ shell form is most comfy they fit like glove. As you might know they are copy of linear stage drivers from Germany.


----------



## renren234

tatster said:


> That'd be fantastic.
> 
> I think I'll probably try Magic Glos in the first instance as others have tried it.
> So anything you can share would be greatfully received.
> ...




First off, I'm not very great with making shells. Still experimenting and had so many failures. But these are what I know.

I think magic gloss is pretty easy to handle actually. First, just pour the resin into your mould. Turn on the uv chamber for 4-6minutes(Depending on how thick you want it to be). I normally go for a 4minute. 

Magic gloss doesn't harden right away, so after the 4minutes is up, pour the remaining resin in another container and flip it around and cure it again for a good 12-15minutes. (I recommend you do one shell at a time, and focus on the steps and handling of the mould when curing.) Thats about all to it.

THINGS TO NOTE. 
Like I said the magic gloss doesn't cure/harden fully right away after the 4minutes. The shell is in like a jelly type of state at the 4mintue mark. And any great amount of force compressing the mould will cause the shell to have wrinkles after it cures(so remember to handle it carefully). For a full cure, it would take up to 15minutes after the initial 4mintues. 

Secondly, you won't need to clean the additional tacky layer like most other uv resin would require.


----------



## myemaildw

if anyone needs occ silver plated cable and ve monk too for diy projects very cheap thanks


----------



## Shilohsjustice

A cool set of DIY universals aren't fully complete without a cool DIY Hand made IEM cable!!!! I used OCC silver plated 28awg cable, I hand made the splitter with UV Resin, hand braided.


----------



## Shep

renren234 said:


> First off, I'm not very great with making shells. Still experimenting and had so many failures. But these are what I know.
> 
> I think magic gloss is pretty easy to handle actually. First, just pour the resin into your mould. Turn on the uv chamber for 4-6minutes(Depending on how thick you want it to be). I normally go for a 4minute.
> 
> ...


 
 I'm finding "Magic-Glos" to be critical to type of UV light and time/temperature/humidity.  For me, these times are way off.  In 30 deg ambient and my nail light, my shells are 2-3mm in 90s, plus 120s inverted.  I have wasted 4 Oz of resin and a bench full of failures trying & retrying these long times like in the German video.  It's great material when you get it matched to your conditions so you really need to be prepared to buy 6 Oz to experiment.
 Lisa Pavelka refers to "shadow curing", where the cure continues after the UV exposure.  You can use this effect by leaving the shells in the mold and they'll harden overnight without stickiness.
 If you have Magic-Glos left over, put it in a separate container in the dark to use on the tubes, connectors, later.  It's gooey rather than runny and it'll eventually be useless but at this price you get couple days possible use.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Here is a sneak peak of a cable I made for a super cool custom IEM, the slide is made from the same piece of wood I am using for the faceplates. This is only the 3rd cable I've ever made and find it extremely gratifying to makethe IEM and cable!


----------



## roughington

shilohsjustice said:


> Here is a sneak peak of a cable I made for a super cool custom IEM, the slide is made from the same piece of wood I am using for the faceplates. This is only the 3rd cable I've ever made and find it extremely gratifying to makethe IEM and cable!


 
 Where did you source the wires?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

roughington said:


> Where did you source the wires?




I bought them off eBay, from the eBay store Johnswirestore.


----------



## axismundi

Anyone knows where to source Sonion 26-E25 Accupass and/or E25ST002/D? That is appart from Colsanmicro since I understand there is a minimum order quantity with them, whereas I am interested only in a sample for testing and measurement. Thanks


----------



## MuZo2

Check Taobao.


----------



## JorgePantalones

Phew!
  
 Spent the last few weeks working my way through the entirety of this thread.  I'm not sure what to do with all my spare time now!
  
 Luckily, I've got some UV nail gel and other various sundry on the way.  I should probably reread the thread too.  Maybe I'll come to understand half of what's said.


----------



## axismundi

muzo2 said:


> Check Taobao.


 
 Thanks but I had done that already, unfortunately without success.. There are a few Sonion BAs for sale but none of the two I am interested in.


----------



## Emiliano

I have found a UV resin on aliexpress it's better than lisa pavenka and costs less


----------



## MuZo2

emiliano said:


> I have found a UV resin on aliexpress it's better than lisa pavenka and costs less


 

 Where are you located they might not ship it.


----------



## Emiliano

i'm in rome,italy but i think that they ship all over the world,
  i don't want to advertise to anyone but' it is an aliexpress store that sells professional products that here in Italy only sell to professionals, so I think it is a good advice for us that we have this passion 8and sorry for my bad english


----------



## Lightsword

emiliano said:


> I have found a UV resin on aliexpress it's better than lisa pavenka and costs less


 
 Which resin did you locate? I'm curious as well! Also google taobao and see if it's available there as well. I know there are forwarding services for taobao called taobao agents that will froward stuff out of the country to you. I'm from the US and the Magic Glos is cheap, but I'd love to see what other options there are. That being said, I'll probably end up buying the real thing for my next attempt unless this proves to be a smashing success  
  
 Also, has anyone located a reliable source for the Sonion 1723? I'm probably gonna build using that or with the Knowles GK-31732. I've found the 31732 at digikey and mouser, any other less expensive sources for them? Thanks guys and I'll be happy to share what I've learned as I go


----------



## Shep

Thanks to this fantastic resource I finished my first DIY IEM, just have the faceplate to add now. I went with the good advice for a GK first build. Separate 3mm sound tubes both 17mm long for TWFK and CI with a net 3mm of 1.3 x 2.0 tube to fit the GK spouts, so 20mm in all. After some listening, found a grey damper on the TWFK and brown on the CI to give very nice upper bass and mids with a slightly bright but very clear treble. I might damp down the TWFK a little more. Shells are Magic-Glos and seal well in the ears, the sound tubes are well sealed into the shells at their ends but temporarily, to allow damper changes.
  
 The aspect that puzzles me is the lack of low bass. I understood the CI would 'shout down' the TWFK, whereas it's the other way around. Bass rolls off from 50Hz and is gone under 30Hz. Is this normal? I see that the TWFK is vented, should I seal the vent to prevent bass leaking back through it? Any pearls of wisdom from The Masters here?


----------



## Emiliano

hi,the name in aliexpress is Soundlink,the name of the uv resin is Nicefit,In this shop you can find knowles driver,,I take GK-31732 and GQ-30783 and i'll recive next week.....
 my impression isthat the nicefit is' qualitatively better than the magic glos and catalyzes in  the 'half of time (3 minutes), I'm not an expert about resins  but I think the nicefit  is a professional  product (you can also note from the package) .I hope to be  helpful.
 Have a nice day


----------



## MuZo2

Nicefit is something like Egger or Dreve in China used for CIEM and hearing aids. Seems like medical grade should be better than UV gel for nails. But I am still unsure delivery companies like DHL or any other accept liquid or gel. Even if seller says so it will be rejected. Most of taobao agents have this warnings on their websites.


----------



## MuZo2

shep said:


>


 
 Did you use any crossover?


----------



## Emiliano

i recived nicefit by dhl,about crossover not yet but  I am informing about it, and i dont  know who sells crossover, as
 Regards the shells am using also another resin that is called Prochima, the difference with the uv and 'resin is that you have to work with the dremel to dig it  but the positives are that it costs much less and you will get good results, and you have tried to insert a crossover?


----------



## Shep

muzo2 said:


> Did you use any crossover?


 
 Yes, just the standard RC crossover integrated with the Knowles GK-31732.  I shortened the tubes by 3mm & now run the CI undamped and there is a small improvement, it sounds pretty flat to 40Hz and I might have to settle for that.  Still, I wonder how to achieve the bass extension that appears to be possible.  Hard to measure these low frequencies without a lot of kit but this GK isn't subjectively as good as my old SE530 in that regard.  From the mid-bass up, the sound is exquisite though.


----------



## piotrus-g

shep said:


> Yes, just the standard RC crossover integrated with the Knowles GK-31732.  I shortened the tubes by 3mm & now run the CI undamped and there is a small improvement, it sounds pretty flat to 40Hz and I might have to settle for that.  Still, I wonder how to achieve the bass extension that appears to be possible.  Hard to measure these low frequencies without a lot of kit but this GK isn't subjectively as good as my old SE530 in that regard.  From the mid-bass up, the sound is exquisite though.


 

 I think you may have a leak on the driver side - check if the tubing is fully glued on to the driver. You can seal the tubing by adding some UV material around it and the drivers.


----------



## Emiliano

so please keep me informed about bass extension


----------



## Shep

piotrus-g said:


> I think you may have a leak on the driver side - check if the tubing is fully glued on to the driver. You can seal the tubing by adding some UV material around it and the drivers.


 
 Thanks. Yes, I've done that because it's now much easier with the latest Knowles GK (Digi-Key) to make a sub-assembly of drivers with tubes fully cured to go in the shell.  I found the latest GK now has a spacer between the CI and the TWFK to increase the center-to-center of the 'spouts' so that old problem of getting the tubes secure is solved.  I've checked that the assembly doesn't break by disassembling & re-assembling the drivers with tubes in the shell a few times.  I didn't use cyanoacrylate at all.  Quite a mystery.
 Do these BA drivers 'burn-in' at all?


----------



## ForceMajeure

The GK you got should not have any problem or need "burnin"...
 Few possibilities either you don't have a full seal with your shell, tubes are not placed correctly /leaks, a wire is broken from one of the drivers to the crossover plates in the back, bad soldering making contact with elements on the crossover plate. 
  
 I would highly suggest to check the assembly before securing it in the shell and measure it before (if you have the tools).
  
 try to use one damper and one tube connecting both spouts. You might have a better sound. I remember messing with it and had better result with one damper only (maybe green I don't remember).
  
 Regarding the Nicefit resin, curing times and handling are the same as any professional fotoplast (Egger, Dreve). It is made by Detax, they make the nice-fit line for chinese it seems...


----------



## piotrus-g

> Originally Posted by *Shep* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> I didn't use cyanoacrylate at all.


 
 Maybe that's the problem?


----------



## Shep

Thanks for all the ideas & support on my bass extension problem.  This is my first working build and it's clear my impressions are not good enough because improving the fit with coats of resin in some areas gained me another 10Hz.  OK, I'm still not flat to 25Hz but it's plenty good enough the acoustic/jazz I listen to, for a first effort.
 There is a LOT of difference between a decent ear seal and an excellent ear seal.  You must get that seal perfect to have the extension.
 Anyhow, for the record, Knowles GK-31732 with standard x-over; 17mm tubes; CI undamped; TWFK white damper.  Sounds better than anything in my profile through the Smyth A8 except possibly the SR-009/BHSE.  Astonishing, for what it cost.
 Now to perfect the shells and get making more....


----------



## jbr1971

shep said:


> Thanks for all the ideas & support on my bass extension problem.  This is my first working build and it's clear my impressions are not good enough because improving the fit with coats of resin in some areas gained me another 10Hz.  OK, I'm still not flat to 25Hz but it's plenty good enough the acoustic/jazz I listen to, for a first effort.
> There is a LOT of difference between a decent ear seal and an excellent ear seal.  You must get that seal perfect to have the extension.
> Anyhow, for the record, Knowles GK-31732 with standard x-over; 17mm tubes; CI undamped; TWFK white damper.  Sounds better than anything in my profile through the Smyth A8 except possibly the SR-009/BHSE.  Astonishing, for what it cost.
> Now to perfect the shells and get making more....


 
  
 I am glad you are getting better results with the seal improvements.
  
 You might want to redo your impressions. When I was almost done shaping mine I would put mine in my ears after some significant shaping to make sure I still achieved a good seal. That way when I made my molds I had confidence that the shells would seal properly. It has worked out well so far.
  
 Having a good mold will definitely save time for you in the long run if you plan to make multiple sets.


----------



## Squirg

Hey Guys!  I have a friend with the Dunu DN-1000.  The left earpiece has gone silent and I suggested adding a MMCX connector with new cable.  Question: has anyone cracked one of these (or similar) open?  I have some AStrotec AX-35's that I did the same thing to and worked beautifully, but I can't figure out how to open these without damaging them.  Any ideas?


----------



## ForceMajeure

I think they open from the inside.not the outside. you can see in that pic the inner circle on the piece that have the nozzle facing up (not where the mesh is).

  
 heat that area with an hairdryer/heatgun grab the nozzle with some TP (to not damage it) over it with a pliers and pull gently.


----------



## Squirg

forcemajeure said:


> I think they open from the inside.not the outside. you can see in that pic the inner circle on the piece that have the nozzle facing up (not where the mesh is).
> 
> 
> heat that area with an hairdryer/heatgun grab the nozzle with some TP (to not damage it) over it with a pliers and pull gently.


 
 Thank You, Force!  That worked beautifully!!!  Much appreciated!  For anyone wondering, it appears they are using a 10ohm resistor on the DD and a 2.2uf cap on the TWFK.  I got a bump in LF after I reinstalled it.  Not sure why, but I'm thinking the extra volume taken up by the MMCX connector and solder caused it.  I'll post pics later.  
  
 Thanks again!


----------



## ForceMajeure

Awesome


----------



## Lightsword

Hi everyone,
  
 Here's a few photos of my first set of impressions. What do you think? These are my first set, I made them with some assistance and I think they turned out well so far. Anyway, I'm about to start trimming and sculpting them and I wanted to get any advice or suggestions some of you who have trimmed your own and see what advice you have. Since I don't have the permissions to post images yet, I'll include a link to my Imgur album I set up. Thanks! 
  
https://imgur.com/a/oLE26


----------



## jbr1971

lightsword said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> Here's a few photos of my first set of impressions. What do you think? These are my first set, I made them with some assistance and I think they turned out well so far. Anyway, I'm about to start trimming and sculpting them and I wanted to get any advice or suggestions some of you who have trimmed your own and see what advice you have. Since I don't have the permissions to post images yet, I'll include a link to my Imgur album I set up. Thanks!
> 
> https://imgur.com/a/oLE26


 
  
 From your pictures it looks like you have a good set of impressions.
  
 When I was shaping my impressions I used a Dremel with a fairly smooth grinding stone, and used light pressure. The material comes off fairly easy, and you can take too much off very quickly with too much pressure.
  
 After the main cuts and the first shaping pass clearing out the really rough spots, I started putting the impressions back in my ears after every few changes to make sure there was still a good seal, and that they were evenly sized/shaped for each ear. It helped a lot with the final product.
  
 If you are going to dip your impressions with wax for your mold it will help a lot with any holes/pores that are still visible after shaping. If you are not going to use wax, make sure to smooth out all of the holes/pores as they will set in your impression and cause issues with your shells.
  
 Good luck. Have fun.


----------



## sanekn

Hello guys, just finished a second pair! Better than the first one for sure! But ive just usee one single 2mm tube for both twfk and ci in the GK. It works well after all! And some walnut exterior finish with pu lacquer on it.






[/IMG][/IMG]


----------



## Shilohsjustice

sanekn said:


> Hello guys, just finished a second pair! Better than the first one for sure! But ive just usee one single 2mm tube for both twfk and ci in the GK. It works well after all! And some walnut exterior finish with pu lacquer on it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Looking Good!!!!! :thumbsup_tone1:


----------



## sanekn

Thanks man!


----------



## Sinzo

I'm having trouble using agar-agar powder to produce a mold.
  
 I'm using it as a substitute for Knox in a 1:1 ratio.
  
 I've been using about 45g of AgarAgar + 240 ml of water, this yields a mold that falls apart upon the slightest pressure.
  
 Adding too much AgarAgar makes the mold very cloudy and seems to prevent curing of the UV gel.
  
 Anyone else got some other recipe for AgarAgar or is gelatin really the way to go?
  
  
 Oh yeah, about those CL drivers I ordered a while ago from TaoBao for about $2.50 each - they work fairly well and don't seem to have been used. 
 They're a special variant of the CL though - lower impedance I believe.
  
 ALSO, I found a nifty source for soft acrylic shells - you send them your impressions and they make you them. They also do hard acrylic shells etc.
 http://www.mcear.de/epages/78599304.sf/de_DE/?ObjectPath=/Shops/78599304/Categories/Category2/Otoplastiken


----------



## MuZo2

Quality of shells dont look good.


----------



## JorgePantalones

sinzo said:


> I'm having trouble using agar-agar powder to produce a mold.
> 
> I'm using it as a substitute for Knox in a 1:1 ratio.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I suspect you still need to add glycerin.  I might start with a similar amount as ShilohJ's recipe (halfway down post#4719) for the gelatin.  That's just speculation on my part, I haven't tried it.
  
 This may be a good resource:
http://green-plastics.net/posts/39/how-to-make-algae-bioplastic/
  
 Here a nice article about what the glycerin is doing:
http://green-plastics.net/posts/366/add-glycerine-vinegar-gelatin/
  
 Sometimes the Green Plastics website can be cantankerous.  Probably time for them to seek out a new host.
  
 -GEO


----------



## Shilohsjustice

jorgepantalones said:


> I suspect you still need to add glycerin.  I might start with a similar amount as ShilohJ's recipe (halfway down post#4719) for the gelatin.  That's just speculation on my part, I haven't tried it.
> 
> This may be a good resource:
> http://green-plastics.net/posts/39/how-to-make-algae-bioplastic/
> ...




The gelatin is the way to go, I did several tests with the agar agar all of which failed in comparison to the gelatin so I scratched that as a viable investment material for me. There is an agar agar based duplicating gel in the iem manufacturing industry but it has additives that re-enforce it's strength and I could not get the cloudiness to go away when adding substrates to the mix. Agar agar is super concentrated meaning you cannot substitute the gelatin with agar agar following the same recipe as the one I posted for gelatin, in fact it would be closer to 1/4 of the amount of agar agar compared to gelatin per 350ml hot water. I hope this helps.

Thank you for the links above, I may give it one more go with the agar-gelatin mix using sorbitol and the 1% glycerol.


----------



## jbr1971

I purchased clear ballistics gel cubes from Clear Ballistics which are very easy to melt down and reform multiple times. It was $10 plus shipping for a 1 lb bag of cubes. You would have to be making A LOT of molds to go through the full supply.
  
 After some trial and error, and some helpful tips from others on this thread, I was able to get some very good clear, bubble free, molds.
  

 v1 vs v2
  
 They also have smaller samples you can buy (limit of 2) if you only plan to make one set of molds. It looks like two samples might just be big enough.


----------



## omgflyingbanana

So I bought 2 CI-22955's but one of them has pretty terrible sound; it's incredibly low and the low end is crackling/rattling. Anyone know how I can fix this? Really don't want to throw away $25 since this is my first BA purchase.
  
 Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pa9rB93foP0


----------



## jbr1971

omgflyingbanana said:


> So I bought 2 CI-22955's but one of them has pretty terrible sound; it's incredibly low and the low end is crackling/rattling. Anyone know how I can fix this? Really don't want to throw away $25 since this is my first BA purchase.
> 
> Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pa9rB93foP0


 
  
 Where did you buy it from? Do they have a return/replacement policy? Any reputable seller should.


----------



## omgflyingbanana

I'm in the process of talking to the seller right now, just wondering if there's anything immediate I could do.


----------



## JorgePantalones

shilohsjustice said:


> The gelatin is the way to go, I did several tests with the agar agar all of which failed in comparison to the gelatin so I scratched that as a viable investment material for me. There is an agar agar based duplicating gel in the iem manufacturing industry but it has additives that re-enforce it's strength and I could not get the cloudiness to go away when adding substrates to the mix. Agar agar is super concentrated meaning you cannot substitute the gelatin with agar agar following the same recipe as the one I posted for gelatin, in fact it would be closer to 1/4 of the amount of agar agar compared to gelatin per 350ml hot water. I hope this helps.
> 
> Thank you for the links above, I may give it one more go with the agar-gelatin mix using sorbitol and the 1% glycerol.


 

 I didn't mean to suggest following the gelatin recipe for the agar to water ratio.  Rather, I thought the amount of glycerol to add could be taken from your gelatin recipe, as a starting point.  Looking at the base molecule from gelatin and agar, they are very different.  And from what - very little - I understand about polymer chemistry, it is wildly unpredictable, so who knows?  
  
 I'm just starting on my second pair of ciem's this weekend and for what it's worth, I use your gelatin recipe as well as many other tips, to great result.  
  
 Big thanks for the meticulous documentation Shiloh.


----------



## Squirg

jbr1971 said:


> I purchased clear ballistics gel cubes from Clear Ballistics which are very easy to melt down and reform multiple times. It was $10 plus shipping for a 1 lb bag of cubes. You would have to be making A LOT of molds to go through the full supply.
> 
> After some trial and error, and some helpful tips from others on this thread, I was able to get some very good clear, bubble free, molds.
> 
> ...


 
  


jbr1971 said:


> I purchased clear ballistics gel cubes from Clear Ballistics which are very easy to melt down and reform multiple times. It was $10 plus shipping for a 1 lb bag of cubes. You would have to be making A LOT of molds to go through the full supply.
> 
> After some trial and error, and some helpful tips from others on this thread, I was able to get some very good clear, bubble free, molds.
> 
> ...


 
 Good stuff!  Were you able to get the mold on the right with a wax coating?  I was only able to get a bubble-free mold after putting the whole thing in the oven for a few hours, in which the wax would obviously melt.  What temp. was the gel when you poured it in?  Nice work!


----------



## omgflyingbanana

I found this interesting PCB used to crossover the CI-22955 and ED-29689 on taobao! Thoughts?
  
 https://world.taobao.com/item/537176434164.htm?fromSite=main&spm=a1z10.1-c.w4004-14744581058.54.YC0sLO


----------



## Emiliano

CI is for BF and ED is for?
 OMG do you know if that seller ship in italy?
 Thanks


----------



## omgflyingbanana

It's taobao, so unfortunately I don't think they ship to Italy. You might be able to get an agent to ship it to you, though.
  
 Anyway, I found another one (scroll down for pictures). It's pretty interesting!
 https://world.taobao.com/item/524510034281.htm#detail


----------



## omgflyingbanana

I apologize for the spam, but I just wanna dump some taobao links.
  
Incredibly cheap ED-29689? (around $5.06)
  
Shure shell
Shure shell with metal tip (I think SE846 shell)
Shure shell with screws 
Acoustic foam?
  
Looking for more UIEM shells? 

 I stumbled upon this while looking up shells. Even though it's not just the shell and an actual IEM clone, I can't help but think how gorgeous this wood replica of the SE846 looks.


----------



## Sinzo

Those armatures are legit - I've bought some CL varients from Taobao before for $1.50 each - the actual cost is mostly the shipping with the forwarding agent.
  
 I've been away for a while , and during that time I compiled a list of materials from Taobao, using these would significantly reduce the cost of building.
  
UV RESIN:
https://world.taobao.com/item/520859843822.htm?spm=a312a.7728556.2015080705.14.ypTMwP&id=520859843822&scm=1007.12006.46753.i524532756944&pvid=db43fb5d-cc40-4843-a09b-7bfa524e544e
 
Faceplate:
https://world.taobao.com/item/41606920004.htm?spm=a312a.7728556.201601086188259.7.8dVovR&scm=1007.12679.24488.41606920004
 
Litz Wire: 
https://world.taobao.com/item/41545951555.htm?spm=a312a.7728556.2015080705.18.8dVovR&id=41545951555&scm=1007.12006.46753.i41395868371&pvid=03191cda-777d-4af3-91cc-86a8473dde14
 
Dampners:
https://world.taobao.com/item/536468160666.htm?spm=a312a.7728556.201601086188259.5.XsIisJ&scm=1007.12679.20634.536468160666
 
Connectors:
https://world.taobao.com/item/536395514913.htm?spm=a312a.7728556.2015080705.15.wJ8voO&id=536395514913&scm=1007.12006.46753.i536468160666&pvid=a19c5d96-4ff9-4c6d-96cc-302441c337b9
 
Armatures
https://shop543960977.world.taobao.com/?spm=a312a.7728556.2015080705.3.aTxlQP
 
and
 
https://shop112206815.world.taobao.com/?spm=a312a.7728556.2015080705.3.5gXABz
 
 
UV RESIN CONTAINER FOR EXCESS:
https://world.taobao.com/item/44194145224.htm?fromSite=main&spm=a312a.7700824.w4004-8607859662.35.qCXLxm
 
 
IMPRESSION CONTAINER FOR DUBLIERMASSE:
https://world.taobao.com/item/39487753480.htm?spm=a312a.7728556.201601086188259.6.luWHuE&scm=1007.12679.24488.39487753480
 
DIY STARTER KIT FOR CIEMS:
https://world.taobao.com/item/530238486872.htm?fromSite=main&spm=a312a.7700824.w4004-8607859662.71.gPR6yo
 
IMPRESSION SILICONE:
https://world.taobao.com/item/529190448330.htm?spm=a312a.7728556.201601086188259.8.luWHuE&scm=1007.12679.24488.529190448330
 
UV RESIN DYE:
https://world.taobao.com/item/524532756944.htm?spm=a312a.7728556.2015080705.15.ztKpLZ&id=524532756944&scm=1007.12006.46753.i520862283438&pvid=932b5f7f-a56c-443b-a627-fc1538b8c581
  
  
 PS: Is anyone able to read Chinese? If so, could you translate this bill of materials?
https://world.taobao.com/item/530238486872.htm?fromSite=main&spm=a312a.7700824.w4004-8607859662.71.gPR6yo


----------



## Xymordos

Translated as follows:-

UV Resin 50g
Agar gel 200g
Cleaning liquid (for UV resin) 50ml
Thermometer x1
The UV polish thing you apply on the shell at the end to make it shiny 3ml
Wax 100g
Injector (for the ear mold) x1
Think this is the cotton thing you stick in your ear before taking impressions (3 pairs)
UV Lamp x1
Cup to put the agar gel in to get your negative mold (1 pair)
3 different coarseness of sandpaper
hook to get your impressions out of the agar gel x1
blu-tak x1
Coloring dye for UV resin (3 colors)
Mixing bottle for UV dye x3
  
 The numbers to the right of the materials are prices in RMB


----------



## Emiliano

thanks


----------



## omgflyingbanana

xymordos said:


> Translated as follows:-
> 
> UV Resin 50g
> Agar gel 200g
> ...


 
 Damn, that's actually quite inexpensive. You pretty much have everything you need. If I'm reading correctly the only thing they don't have is the impression material?


----------



## Xymordos

Oops they do have it, I missed an item in the translation, this is the correct one in the correct order as they appear:-

UV Resin 50g
Agar gel 200g
Cleaning liquid (for UV resin) 50ml
Thermometer x1
The UV polish thing you apply on the shell at the end to make it shiny 3ml
Wax 100g
The impression "paste" - so the stuff you use to make impressions with - 50g
Injector (for the ear mold) x1
Think this is the cotton thing you stick in your ear before taking impressions (3 pairs)
UV Lamp x1
Cup to put the agar gel in to get your negative mold (1 pair)
3 different coarseness of sandpaper
hook to get your impressions out of the agar gel x1
blu-tak x1
Coloring dye for UV resin (3 colors)
Mixing bottle for UV dye x3


----------



## Sinzo

Thanks! I was just curious because I saw a thread made by a guy who used a similar DIY package.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/817125/my-first-diy-custom-iems
  
 It seems we can significantly reduce start up costs via materials from China.
  
 The armatures I've bought from there are decent, and cross overs are very cheap, and easy to find.
  
 I found an UM3X one which may be interesting, https://world.taobao.com/item/537292431405.htm?spm=a312a.7728556.2015080705.15.epTQ9M&id=537292431405&scm=1007.12006.46753.i525852684057&pvid=2f39e258-cc40-48db-a126-237b72b39ed3
  
  
 Edit: SO the package I've found is about $50 - with around $30 in shipping you have everything you need aside from armatures - which can be bought from Mouser, Digikey. Taobao is also a source of armatures - but they may be defective - but the price means you can get multiple for the price of one from Digikey.
  
 Edit 2: The armatures are usually also fairly either unknown variants or are made for specific companies - some prototyping  may be necessary with a UIEM shell.


----------



## Xymordos

I've bought second hand drivers from a variety of shops on Taobao and never actually received a defective one. However, I can't comment on their life span. I do buy off Mouser whenever I can, but some drivers are only available on Mouser in 25s.


----------



## Sinzo

What does everyone use for prototyping shells?
  
 I've been using medical acrylic until now but it's fairly annoying due to its long shipping time.
  
 I tried using Nail Polish but it wouldn't set, would nail topcoat or base coat set and form a shell?


----------



## MuZo2

Nail basecoat works. Turns yellow on long exposures.


----------



## Sinzo

Thanks!


----------



## Sinzo

Using the nail base coat leads to a really thin shell, it bends by touching it.
  
 I've tried to increase curing time, from 5 before emptying excess to 15, but it doesn't seem to make a difference.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

I started with the Lina brand UV base coat which worked really well for a long time. I used to buy it off eBay, it did tend to turn yellow though, but worked extremely well. 

I made some clear shells tonight, I've been obsessing over getting them as clear as possible. It literally keeps me up at night. Practice practice practice practice. One thing that has always helped me is slow down, I was always anxious to get to a point where I could put the shells in my ears to test. Sometimes rushing through the process. 





I always go back to making sure you impressions are processed/cut/sanded nicely, In the beginning I was so anxious to make molds and shells I paid little attention to the quality of my impressions and I went through a ton of material. Nice sanding, wash them to get the dust off, dip in wax. By doing this the shells are extremely smooth right out of the mold, all I have to do then is buff. 

Remember what you perfect in one UV material will be different in another, even brand to brand can be different in curing times.


----------



## JorgePantalones

Wow, those are gorgeous!


----------



## MuZo2

Yeah stunning, what UV gel is that?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

muzo2 said:


> Yeah stunning, what UV gel is that?




It is Dreve Fotoplast.


----------



## MinhTruc

shilohsjustice said:


> It is Dreve Fotoplast.


 
 Where did you buy that, Dreve Fotoplast ?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

minhtruc said:


> Where did you buy that, Dreve Fotoplast ?




You can buy small quantities from LightningEnterprises.com, I was buying from them for a while now I buy it from Warner-Tech care.


----------



## jbr1971

squirg said:


> Good stuff!  Were you able to get the mold on the right with a wax coating?  I was only able to get a bubble-free mold after putting the whole thing in the oven for a few hours, in which the wax would obviously melt.  What temp. was the gel when you poured it in?  Nice work!


 
  
 I have not tried a wax dipped impression yet with the ballistics gel. I was afraid of it melting. After seeing the post @Shilohsjustice put up about specific temperatures, etc to work with when using wax I may give it a try:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/430688/home-made-iems/4710#post_12583593
  
 I have not been keeping track of gel temps at all so far. I have just been melting it in the microwave on low power until I like the consistency, pouring it over the impressions right away, then putting them in the oven.
  
 With the oven method I get a bubble-free mold except for a little bit right at the edge of the impression. After the first "rough" cure I paint a coat of fotoplast over the entire shell for a second cure. The second cure produces the smooth shell.
  
 I am going to try and redo my mold with wax so I can get rid of the second cure step.


----------



## jbr1971

shilohsjustice said:


> You can buy small quantities from LightningEnterprises.com, I was buying from them for a while now I buy it from Warner-Tech care.


 
  
 I bought the 100g bottle from Lightning Enterprises as I did not want to sink too much money into the project while still learning, and it has been enough for 10 pairs of shells so far (a lot of trial and error). The bottle is not quite done yet.
  
 I am hoping to get 1 or 2 more pairs of shells from it once I redo my impressions.


----------



## Lightsword

Hi everyone,
  
 Has anyone had success combining an alcohol based ink (Tattoo Ink) with UV Resin and having it cure correctly? I tried mixing a small amount of blue ink with Magic Glos and it just didn't want to cure at all. I also tried a Daler & Rowney Liquid Acrylic ink/paint and trying to use it, and it partially cured, but the paint is still kinda sticky 24+ hours later. I'm seriously considering returning the MagicGlos and just getting some actual UV resin to try. 
  
 Also, what types of hdrocolloid have you all been using? I've tried gelatin a couple times and been very displeased with it, It's turned a brown color and it's definitely not translucent. I'm giving it one last shot, then I'll probably abandon that for something better.
  
 Finally, is there any consensus regarding the superiority of MMCX VS Standard 2 pin design? I seem to be seeing lots of MMCX and lately, and since they're both cheap and easy to source from china I'm really just interested in the better design. Thanks!


----------



## jbr1971

lightsword said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> Has anyone had success combining an alcohol based ink (Tattoo Ink) with UV Resin and having it cure correctly? I tried mixing a small amount of blue ink with Magic Glos and it just didn't want to cure at all. I also tried a Daler & Rowney Liquid Acrylic ink/paint and trying to use it, and it partially cured, but the paint is still kinda sticky 24+ hours later. I'm seriously considering returning the MagicGlos and just getting some actual UV resin to try.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I added a post a couple pages back (http://www.head-fi.org/t/430688/home-made-iems/5400#post_12950747) about using ballistics gel with very good results. It might be a good option for you.
  
 Good luck


----------



## Lightsword

jbr1971 said:


> I added a post a couple pages back (http://www.head-fi.org/t/430688/home-made-iems/5400#post_12950747) about using ballistics gel with very good results. It might be a good option for you.
> 
> Good luck


 
 Thanks for the advice. I did see your post, and I'm definitely considering it. I would like something easier to work with though if possible. I do have a sous vide machine (Immersion Circulator) and I've been using it to heat the gelatin and wax like a double boiler. It's nice cause I can set a specific temperature and just let it go while I work on other things without having to mind it like I would if it were a pot on the stove. I'll keep looking, but I'll definitely keep that in mind. Thanks for the suggestion!


----------



## Lightsword

shilohsjustice said:


> Hello all, quick question for everyone. I've been using Krystaloid for my duplicating material with great results, I've also used gelatin when I'm out of material with great results, however, I stumbled across information about agar powder which is a high strength gel similar to krystaloid and gelatin. Has anyone used agar for there colloid/duplicating material??
> 
> It appears to have the same prep as both hydrocolloid and gelatin and its readily available. I did order some just to see but thought I'd reach out to everyone on here as well.


 
  
 Hi *Shilohsjustice**,*
  
 Where did you happen to find the Krystaloid? I've looked all over Lightningenterprises but not seen it there on the website. Is it something you have to call and request? Thanks!


----------



## Shilohsjustice

lightsword said:


> Hi *Shilohsjustice**,*
> 
> Where did you happen to find the Krystaloid? I've looked all over Lightningenterprises but not seen it there on the website. Is it something you have to call and request? Thanks!




Yes, just send them an email and Chris will get back to you fairly quickly. I want to say he sells it in 1lb bags. The stuff is a bit interesting to work with and I waisted the first half trying to figure it out. He also sells colorants for the fotoplast which aren't listed. It's UV colorant made by Dentaurum, they us it to color retainers in the Dental industry which just so happens to be made from UV resin similar to the Egger and Dreve UV resin.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

I've been playing around with some abalone faceplates the last couple days, and after waisting half of the abalone I bought through trial and error, I finally found a good techinque to wo work with it. The shell below was just a test shell to try out the abalone.


----------



## omgflyingbanana

Hey, does anyone know how the resistor in the Etymotic ER4P-T affects the sound? Would removing the resistor add more bass to the sound? I'm only guessing this since the adapter that converts the ER4P to the ER4S adds a 75 ohm resistor to each channel and the S has less bass than the P.
  
 Edit: looked at some diagrams of IEM crossovers and this seems like a simple high-pass filter? Sorry, don't know much about crossovers.


----------



## mikkelmmk93

shilohsjustice said:


> I've been playing around with some abalone faceplates the last couple days, and after waisting half of the abalone I bought through trial and error, I finally found a good techinque to wo work with it. The shell below was just a test shell to try out the abalone.


 
 :O !!
 That truly was my face for a minute or two there while I was just staring at your work of art!
 What is the tree made of?


----------



## MuZo2

shilohsjustice said:


> I've been playing around with some abalone faceplates the last couple days, and after waisting half of the abalone I bought through trial and error, I finally found a good techinque to wo work with it. The shell below was just a test shell to try out the abalone.


 
 Cool, how did you work with abalone, grind it?


----------



## ForceMajeure

Great work Shilo!
  
 He probably uses his fancy laser to make the tree and uses some kind of acrylic paint or gold leaf to fill it.
  
 The abalone could be the thin ones ready to use for nail art.
  
 I am curious to know how he attached it to the shell? Did he made a thin faceplate first and laid over it the abalone and glue/used resin to attach it. then added another layer of resin over to cure it, to finally glue it to the shell using uv resin...?
 Or did he  used the abalone directly to attach it to the shell and used some resin over it...?
  
 Well, only he can answer.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

forcemajeure said:


> Great work Shilo!
> 
> He probably uses his fancy laser to make the tree and uses some kind of acrylic paint or gold leaf to fill it.
> 
> ...




I did use the laser "it's not fancy though" just a square metal box to etch the tree and filled it in with gold metallic acrylic. Then put another layer over it to seal the tree in. 

I bought the abalone in a sheet from Amazon I think it was 6"x9" it's extremely thin, thin enough it cuts easy with an exact knife and it had a sticky adhesive back. 

First I had to remove the sticky adhesive on the back of the abalone, I used rubbing alcohol. Then I used a sharpie and traced the out line of the shell and cut it out with the exaco knife, I domed uv resin over the abalone and cured, laser etched the tree put another layer of UV resin to lock it in, super glued the abalone faceplate to the shell body, used dremel to contour the sides and then with a fine brush took fotoplast around the edge to seal it in, buffed it.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

ForceMajeure,

It took about 16 tries before I realized glueing the faceplate was the best way, I tried just fotoplast and each time I went to buff the fotoplast delaminated from the abalone. When I super glued it and brushed the fotoplast around the edge it stay intact without any issues. It's easier to work with than I expected, for me it was hardest figuring out how to keep it attached to the shell.


----------



## Sinzo

Does anyone know whether I could substitute a low pass cross over for a CI 30120 with a red damper?
  
 It'd be this set up: (Furco's Opus 3)
  
 GQ-30783  +  no-crossover               +  20x1.93mm tubing  + Orange Damper (3300ohm)
 CI-30120    + LP@2x(10ohm/33uF)  +  20x0.85mm tubing  + No Damper
  
 Aside from that, I'd also use a green damper on the GQ, I'm hoping to supplement the GQ's anaemic bass with the CI 30120.


----------



## Squirg

shilohsjustice said:


> You can buy small quantities from LightningEnterprises.com, I was buying from them for a while now I buy it from Warner-Tech care.


 
 Dude!  Thanks for the tip on Warner-Tech!  I knew there had to be someone who sold everything!


----------



## Shilohsjustice

squirg said:


> Dude!  Thanks for the tip on Warner-Tech!  I knew there had to be someone who sold everything!




They supply to several of the big iem companies.


----------



## Emiliano

shilohsjustice said:


> They supply to several of the big iem companies.


 
 hi can i know how you connect GQ-30783  and CI 30120.?do you use the cq crossover?
 thanks


----------



## Emiliano

furco said:


> I've now listened to the GQ-30783 + RAB-32257 for about a week and have to say, it sounds really REALLY nice.
> 
> I had initially convinced myself that a DIY 3-driver IEM would probably have the sound quality of a pair of $20 - $30 ear buds but without the bass filling out the sound.  After experimenting with a 6-driver config for the better part of 2 months, my pride/ego convinced me that a DIY 3-driver would be good enough for my teenagers, but not for me.
> 
> ...


 
 Hi RAB-32257 is soldered in the GQ crossover?
 thanks


----------



## Shilohsjustice

emiliano said:


> hi can i know how you connect GQ-30783  and CI 30120.?do you use the cq crossover?
> thanks




I'm not as versed with the CI-30120, i would suspect you could add a 10ohm resistor and it would do it just fine.


----------



## Sinzo

Shiloh, could you add an independent CI to pretty much any setup, along with a red damper, to add bass? (Without any problems, IE. to a GQ 30783)
  
 ALSO, does anyone want to try a $8 a side triple?
  
 The cross over option on here for $7.50 a pair: https://world.taobao.com/item/529381485042.htm?fromSite=main&spm=a312a.7728556.w4004-10135756754.24.CX9IzM
 DTEC 30265: https://world.taobao.com/item/40521451456.htm?spm=a312a.7700714.0.0.792aUl#detail ($2.50 EACH, one for each side)
 ED 26784: https://world.taobao.com/item/536429365726.htm?fromSite=main&spm=a312a.7728556.w4004-14795450967.26.PfTwaQ ($1.60 EACH, one a side)
  
 + A green damper
  
  
 Also, Shiloh, the CI 30120 that I ordered were from here: https://world.taobao.com/item/528006085585.htm?spm=a312a.7728556.2015080705.14.FHbCwO&id=528006085585&scm=1007.12006.46753.i527926335562&pvid=82b3d97b-f708-4467-acda-03be04cae83a
 (I remember you and some others asking for a link a while ago?)
  
  
 P.S:
  
 Taobao stocks fairly cheap Sonion drivers:
  
 https://world.taobao.com/item/527924351325.htm?fromSite=main&spm=a312a.7728556.w4004-13270246301.12.vliRcQ
 https://world.taobao.com/item/527998952131.htm?fromSite=main&spm=a312a.7728556.w4004-13270246301.24.vliRcQ
 https://world.taobao.com/item/527924811302.htm?fromSite=main&spm=a312a.7728556.w4004-13270246301.26.vliRcQ


----------



## Shilohsjustice

I made some IEM's for a great friend. I was practicing with the abalone just for his pair.

One side is abalone with gold metallic tree, the other is wood with metallic arrows. Simple 3 driver.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

sinzo said:


> Shiloh, could you add an independent CI to pretty much any setup, along with a red damper, to add bass? (Without any problems, IE. to a GQ 30783)
> 
> ALSO, does anyone want to try a $8 a side triple?
> 
> ...




You could absolutely add a CI to a GQ, I've seen DTEC's or HODVTEC added to a GQ to make a surprisingly good sounding 4 driver!!!


----------



## Emiliano

Hi Shilo,in which way i can add CI?I must necessarily put another crossover in addition of CQ or i can solder directly to mmcx?


----------



## Emiliano

10ohm resistor on the  positive wire of CQ?
 Thanks for your replay


----------



## Shilohsjustice

emiliano said:


> Hi Shilo,in which way i can add CI?I must necessarily put another crossover in addition of CQ or i can solder directly to mmcx?




You could add a resistor then go the mmcx, or just wire to the mmcx and add a red damper.


----------



## Emiliano

Thanks Shilo you are very kind


----------



## omgflyingbanana

omgflyingbanana said:


> Hey, does anyone know how the resistor in the Etymotic ER4P-T affects the sound? Would removing the resistor add more bass to the sound? I'm only guessing this since the adapter that converts the ER4P to the ER4S adds a 75 ohm resistor to each channel and the S has less bass than the P.
> 
> Edit: looked at some diagrams of IEM crossovers and this seems like a simple high-pass filter? Sorry, don't know much about crossovers.


 
 Bump? Also does anyone know the value of each resistor in the ER4P? Two 25 ohm resistors?


----------



## ForceMajeure

18ohm you need to add the cable resistance to it also


----------



## Sinzo

Shiloh, I found a viable agar-agar recipe specifically for the negative of CIEMs.
  
  
 "The usage is very simple, the proportion of agar powder and water, 1: 25-35. The optimum ratio of 1 and 30. The side thrown into cold water while stirring. Until completely dissolved, then heated to boiling state is cooled to about 60 degrees on the down mode. If there will be less water bubbles. But the cool air bubbles disappear. . Heating pan can also be used directly, or directly with boiling water prepared and 100 degrees, but when reconstituted attention to stir. Induction heating is disabled, or easy to paste. Water heaters, direct heating means as heating. Note Do not paste pot stirred it, then boil it can be used. Then wait a little to cool to below about 60 degrees can pour the mold. Useless spent agar can be stored in the refrigerator. Agar can be reused.Recommended dug contact with agar resin, or affect the second transparency."


----------



## Shilohsjustice

sinzo said:


> Shiloh, I found a viable agar-agar recipe specifically for the negative of CIEMs.
> 
> 
> "The usage is very simple, the proportion of agar powder and water, 1: 25-35.
> ...


1 teaspoon to 30ml of water? No additives for strengthening?


----------



## ForceMajeure

Guys, here is a nice video showing Westone making a custom marble shell
  
 https://twitter.com/eear_takuya/status/785558955057557504/video/1
  
 He sure could waist less fotoplast


----------



## jbr1971

forcemajeure said:


> Guys, here is a nice video showing Westone making a custom marble shell
> 
> https://twitter.com/eear_takuya/status/785558955057557504/video/1
> 
> He sure could waist less fotoplast


 
  
 Interesting. Are there any pictures of the result online? I was not able to find any.


----------



## ForceMajeure

jbr1971 said:


> Interesting. Are there any pictures of the result online? I was not able to find any.


 
 no, I haven't found any either.


----------



## napka

deleted


----------



## ForceMajeure

napka said:


> Just found mentions of new Knowles multi-driver setups in updated earphone doc:


 
 can you link it please?


----------



## napka

forcemajeure said:


> can you link it please?


 

 Sorry, I'm not sure if I am allowed to post it.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

napka said:


> Sorry, I'm not sure if I am allowed to post it.




Does it indicate whether they will sold as a multi unit such as the GQ and GK drivers.


----------



## piotrus-g

shilohsjustice said:


> Does it indicate whether they will sold as a multi unit such as the GQ and GK drivers.


 
 This is excatly what they are. Same as GQ and GK but with BK+FK and HODVTEC+TWFK - plug and play units with pre-wired corssovers.


napka said:


> Sorry, I'm not sure if I am allowed to post it.


 

 Well the file says it's confidential...


----------



## napka

piotrus-g said:


> Well the file says it's confidential...


 
  
 Deleted, just in case. I guess I got this document by mistake.


----------



## liamosull

How can a custom crossover improve sound from the Knowles manufactured one?


----------



## ForceMajeure

liamosull said:


> How can a custom crossover improve sound from the Knowles manufactured one?


 
 Improving, don't know about that but different.
  
 Well, it depends on a few things. First as long as you don't do anything VERY different, you could tailor it for your taste a bit better. 
 Remember this is very subjective in the end. you might lower bass output by changing resistor values and/or add a bit of midbass, lower mids and mids  by changing crossover values...
 Also your tubing length,width and dampers value might alter the sound even more...
  
 In the end, IMO I don't think you could do a much better job than what Knowles done but you can play around those values a bit.
 We are talking about the premade configuration Knowles are currently selling also so nothing much above 2 BAs


----------



## MuZo2

forcemajeure said:


> I
> We are talking about the premade configuration Knowles are currently selling also so nothing much above 2 BAs


 
 You mean 4BA in 3way crossover


----------



## ForceMajeure

MuZo2 is right
 to avoid confusion I was referring to the GK-31732 and the GQ-30783


----------



## MinhTruc

https://world.taobao.com/item/526327970577.htm?fromSite=main&spm=a312a.7700824.w4004-13270246295.7.lxNfk1
 $5 for a fair of RAB-30265


----------



## Trying2Learn

shilohsjustice said:


> Hello all, it's been awhile since I posted anything I've been working on.
> 
> Here is a single driver setup I did for a friend, I used a BK-28562 from a set of shure e3's they had that were broken. A 680ohm damper, and my new universal shell design that I made myself (not a clone).


How did you make that shell?


----------



## Trying2Learn

Hi all, I'm truly amazed by the amazing work and art you all can do, and I am inspired myself to make my own set of IEMs, perhaps a universal with a Shure shell at first ,and then maybe a custom. But, I'm very new to this and I have a couple questions. In the picture below, the MMCX connector has 3 lil prong things, where the drivers are soldered on to. One of those wires is negative, and one is positive? What about that 3rd prong on the MMCX? Do you just solder the 2 wires onto any 2 prongs? Also, I would make a multi driver iem but I don't understand how connecting BA's together works. Can someone explain this to me please?


----------



## Emiliano

Hi the central prong is tthe positive the other 2 are negative you can use indistinctly,


----------



## Shilohsjustice

trying2learn said:


> How did you make that shell?




I sculpted each side with silicone, cut it, and shaped with dremel by hand. I worked it until it felt comfortable in my ears. Then I made the gelatin mold of it in the same manner as you do with custom in ear molds and then made the hollow shells.


----------



## Lightsword

Hi everyone, I'm still searching for a viable inexpensive UV resin to use (ideally sourced locally to cut down on shipping times). I've done more research and discovered DLP/SLA UV resins and wanted to see if anyone had tried any of them. I'm considering buying some of the MakerJuice resin since it's quite a bit cheaper and seems to be well regarded. Does anyone have any thoughts or experience with it? I've really enjoyed seeing all the growth and amazing developments and contributions from everyone here. Thanks for the encouragement!


----------



## jbr1971

lightsword said:


> Hi everyone, I'm still searching for a viable inexpensive UV resin to use (ideally sourced locally to cut down on shipping times). I've done more research and discovered DLP/SLA UV resins and wanted to see if anyone had tried any of them. I'm considering buying some of the MakerJuice resin since it's quite a bit cheaper and seems to be well regarded. Does anyone have any thoughts or experience with it? I've really enjoyed seeing all the growth and amazing developments and contributions from everyone here. Thanks for the encouragement!


 
  
 I have not used those types of resins as I do not have a 3D printer, so I am not sure if UV nail dryers (or cure chambers others have built) will have the wattage to cure it properly. I would definitely be curious to find out.
  
 I think my biggest concern would be whether or not it is reactive with skin. I know Fotoplast, etc is harmless because that is its use case, but I highly recommend looking more closely into the other resins to make sure it will not have any negative health issues.
  
 UPDATE:
  
 I was curious, so I checked out their website and found a material safety data sheet for the resins (in the Support section). It is classified as a category 2 skin irritant, but it does not say if that is true for when it is cured as well.


----------



## Lightsword

Yeah I saw that in the MSDS too and I'm assuming that the irritant factor is only for the uncured resin. Anyway, I think I'll give it a shot, for Science!


----------



## MIke M

I wouldn't waste your cash on that. 3D printer materials need a highly focused beam of light, they seem to have more UV blockers so that only an exact area cures and nothing around it. I've tried since I have a couple printers anyway. When you use fotoplast in a printer you'll get a big blob of cured material.


----------



## sanekn

Hello guys! Do you know some way to make the CI in the GK less bassy? I find it a little too boomy to my taste personally


----------



## Squirg

[/IMG]



Check out my new curing oven. I have a buddy who sells dentist equipment and he gave it to me. Had to change out the bulbs because it got too hot, but it works like a champ now!


----------



## piotrus-g

sanekn said:


> Hello guys! Do you know some way to make the CI in the GK less bassy? I find it a little too boomy to my taste personally



Resistors are your best bet


----------



## Tony Grant

Anyone try adding an extra Knowles CI-22955  with a GK-31732-000 to make a quad driver? How do I connect it to the GK-31732-000 or is the impedance mismatch an issue? Thanks and sorry because I don't know how to post a new thread, did a search and couldn't find a how-to.
 Thanks!
 Tony


----------



## piotrus-g

tony grant said:


> Anyone try adding an extra Knowles CI-22955  with a GK-31732-000 to make a quad driver? How do I connect it to the GK-31732-000 or is the impedance mismatch an issue? Thanks and sorry because I don't know how to post a new thread, did a search and couldn't find a how-to.
> Thanks!
> Tony


 

 I'd play around with disconnecting (electrically not physically) CI from GK module and wiring both CI in seires, to me that would be the most interesting way to approach this.


----------



## ForceMajeure

tony grant said:


> Anyone try adding an extra Knowles CI-22955  with a GK-31732-000 to make a quad driver? How do I connect it to the GK-31732-000 or is the impedance mismatch an issue? Thanks and sorry because I don't know how to post a new thread, did a search and couldn't find a how-to.
> Thanks!
> Tony


 
 I think the end result will be a too bassy.
  
 But you could unsolder the wires that are attached to the CI driver and connect another CI driver in series and reattach those unsolderded wires so you use the resistor already in place on the crossover board.
 that's one way of doing it.
  
 Another way would be to just attach another CI driver directly from the jack connector using a 4.7ohm resistor in front of it making this combination like you wired another CI driver in parallel to the GK.


----------



## ForceMajeure

By the way I just saw piotrus-g also agrees on wiring the CI in series.
  
 I think this would be the best way. I personally also would change the smd resistor value on the board to an higher one like 10 ohm even 15/20ohm so the end result is not too bass heavy.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

I am off Tuesday and found a local wood craft store and picked up some:
Spalted??
Zebra Wood
Sapele
Black and White Ebony
Snake Wood
Flame Maple
Walnut


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Faceplate Tuesday, the question is what one should I play around with tomorrow??


----------



## ForceMajeure

shilohsjustice said:


> Faceplate Tuesday, the question is what one should I play around with tomorrow??


 
  
 If you have some nice grain (maybe that flame maple) you could try to dye the wood.Like this
  
   
  
 It is not too difficult to do. there are some nice tutorials on youtube.
 You need to have some dye


----------



## mikkelmmk93

shilohsjustice said:


> Faceplate Tuesday, the question is what one should I play around with tomorrow??


 
 Go for the Snake Wood 
  


forcemajeure said:


> If you have some nice grain (maybe that flame maple) you could try to dye the wood.Like this
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Almost a shame to dye such beautiful wood isn't it?


----------



## ForceMajeure

No shame if you ask me


----------



## MuZo2

Ah I thought , they were natural burl wood.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

The dyed wood looks awesome!! I'm going to go with the snake wood today and try my hand at dyeing the flame maple!


----------



## drumkendrum

Super Newb here.. What kind of wax do you use in your waxpot to coat the impression?


----------



## pc27618349

@Shilohsjustice , what tubing lengths did you use for your Savant clone?


----------



## Squirg

This stuff:
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/170708941257?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
  
 IMHO Way better than parrafin wax.


----------



## Squirg

drumkendrum said:


> Super Newb here.. What kind of wax do you use in your waxpot to coat the impre


 
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/170708941257?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


----------



## drumkendrum

I herd gulf wax is good too. ?


----------



## jbr1971

squirg said:


> This stuff:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/170708941257?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
> 
> IMHO Way better than parrafin wax.


 
  
 What makes it better than paraffin? Does it have a higher melting point?


----------



## Lightsword

drumkendrum said:


> I herd gulf wax is good too. ?


 
 I've been using Gulf Wax and I haven't had very good results. I've melted it both with a Sous Vide (Water Bath) system and also using the microwave. I've been able to melt it and get it to coat the impressions really well, but my problems have been related to the low melting point (approx 130-140 degrees fahrenheit; however, the melting point of both the gelatine and Krystalloid is higher. When I've poured the investment material, I've had significant issues with both causing the wax to melt and become unstable. I also tried coating the impressions in clear nail polish, which adhered really well, but again seemed to bubble and melt as well. Anyway, I'd love to know more about the dental wax as well. I'm seriously considering buying some to try as well. I hope this helps you decide as well.


----------



## Squirg

jbr1971 said:


> What makes it better than paraffin? Does it have a higher melting point?


 
 It coats much more evenly and has a harder/shinier surface.  It's flexible and more durable so it doesn't crack and flake off.  Good stuff!


----------



## Squirg

.


----------



## Squirg

lightsword said:


> I've been using Gulf Wax and I haven't had very good results. I've melted it both with a Sous Vide (Water Bath) system and also using the microwave. I've been able to melt it and get it to coat the impressions really well, but my problems have been related to the low melting point (approx 130-140 degrees fahrenheit; however, the melting point of both the gelatine and Krystalloid is higher. When I've poured the investment material, I've had significant issues with both causing the wax to melt and become unstable. I also tried coating the impressions in clear nail polish, which adhered really well, but again seemed to bubble and melt as well. Anyway, I'd love to know more about the dental wax as well. I'm seriously considering buying some to try as well. I hope this helps you decide as well.


 
 As far as I know, the red dental wax is what most IEM companies use for their investments.  It has significantly improved my shell quality.  I would say this is a "must buy"!


----------



## jbr1971

I have been using clear ballistics gel for my molds, which has a melting point of 265-270 F, but paraffin does not stand a chance against that.
  
 I have just been looking around and I think I might have a new idea...downhill ski wax.
  
 From what I am seeing, different types of ski wax have varying melting points, and there appear to be a couple that are above 270F.
  
 I need to look into it further.


----------



## Squirg

jbr1971 said:


> I have been using clear ballistics gel for my molds, which has a melting point of 265-270 F, but paraffin does not stand a chance against that.
> 
> I have just been looking around and I think I might have a new idea...downhill ski wax.
> 
> ...


 
 Killer idea!!!  I gave up on Clear Ballistics because I could only get a bubble free investment after sticking the whole thing in the oven for a few hours.  So, wax was a no-go.  Which is a shame because it's awesome stuff -- super strong and way more transparent than Krystaloid.  Still yet to try it in a pressure pot though.  That may do the trick, I just don't have access to one.  I never thought about ski wax though.  If you try it, let me know how it goes!


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Congrats ForceMajeure for winning the Noble Sage Giveaway!! That's pretty awesome!! I heard an interview with John (Wizard) who talked about the Sage, they are revamped Savant's - they had knowles add a tip to the ED-30761 creating there own proprietary driver making it easier to connect tubing reducing the technical skill required to assemble, it also gives it a small improvement on the bass response.


----------



## drumkendrum

Is there a page on this where it talks about a DIY faceplate? I'd love to see everyone's process and procedure how they go about do them.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

drumkendrum said:


> :atsmile: Is there a page on this where it talks about a DIY faceplate? I'd love to see everyone's process and procedure how they go about do them.




I did a how-to a while ago with pics and all, I don't know what page but it's there.


----------



## ForceMajeure

shilohsjustice said:


> Congrats ForceMajeure for winning the Noble Sage Giveaway!! That's pretty awesome!! I heard an interview with John (Wizard) who talked about the Sage, they are revamped Savant's - they had knowles add a tip to the ED-30761 creating there own proprietary driver making it easier to connect tubing reducing the technical skill required to assemble, it also gives it a small improvement on the bass response.


 
  
 Yes, I saw that video also.
  
 Thanks. so nice to win something out of the blue


----------



## JorgePantalones

shilohsjustice said:


> I did a how-to a while ago with pics and all, I don't know what page but it's there.


 

 I had it in my notes, it's post #4745 : http://www.head-fi.org/t/430688/home-made-iems/4740#post_12595679
  
 I used a slightly modified version on my maiden pair a couple weeks ago (which I've been meaning to post) and it worked out well.
  
 Cheers!
 GEO


----------



## Mython

If any of you can spare the time, this head-fier needs a bit of advice:
  
www.head-fi.org/t/825711/shure-se535-diy-repair-please-help


----------



## Lightsword

squirg said:


> As far as I know, the red dental wax is what most IEM companies use for their investments.  It has significantly improved my shell quality.  I would say this is a "must buy"!


 
 Thanks for your advice! I've bought some and it should be arriving Wednesday!  My impression creation is decent, and I'm getting a lot better at using the Krystalloid. I'm hoping that by the time my Nice Fit arrives from China, I'll be ready and able to make quality shells with them! I'll write up a post detailing what I have learned, what has worked, and what hasn't. Unfortunately the list of failures and problems will be much longer than the list of successes :/ On the plus side, I've learned a lot regarding successful shellmaking and I'm getting better with time.  Thanks again for all the advice and the wisdom encompassed in this thread. I really appreciate it guys!


----------



## Pete64

Hi. Myself experience failure making shells. They cure very uneven. Some parts solid while some parts on the thicker walls of negtive dont cure at all, probably due to the silicone negative i went over to use. Before i used gelatin/kanten and larger forms/cups to mold the negatives in. Now i bought the small size cylinders, i probably should have bought the big ones. What size do you use?


----------



## pc27618349

pete64 said:


> Hi. Myself experience failure making shells. They cure very uneven. Some parts solid while some parts on the thicker walls of negtive dont cure at all, probably due to the silicone negative i went over to use. Before i used gelatin/kanten and larger forms/cups to mold the negatives in. Now i bought the small size cylinders, i probably should have bought the big ones. What size do you use?


 
  
 Uneven curing is probably because of uneven light exposure - smaller cups will help a bit to some extent, but it will greatly help to rotate the molds as you cure it under UV light. What I do is rotate the mold 90 degrees 8 times over the course of the curing time period (if my cure time is 8 minutes, I rotate it 90 degrees every minute). This allows any uneven lighting to even itself out.


----------



## JorgePantalones

pete64 said:


> Hi. Myself experience failure making shells. They cure very uneven. Some parts solid while some parts on the thicker walls of negtive dont cure at all, probably due to the silicone negative i went over to use. Before i used gelatin/kanten and larger forms/cups to mold the negatives in. Now i bought the small size cylinders, i probably should have bought the big ones. What size do you use?


 
 I don't know that the size of the cups will matter as much as balancing the depth of the mold you pour with the width of the cup:
  
 I've been curing mine on a turntable with the majority of light coming from the bottom of the mold up.  My first two tries had a hole in the indentation between the bit that sticks into the "triangular fossa" and the part that dives down into the ear canal.  I couldn't seem to get enough light in there until I lowered the volume of the mold 5mm (1/4") and then everything came out great.  
  
 As a bonus, in my case, the lowered depth of the mold made the bottom of the cast (end of the ear canal) shallower than the sides.  This cured the ear canal a little thicker and deeper which has been better for seating the speaker tubes.


----------



## Pete64

Well, the cylinder i use is 37,5 mm id and 35 mm high. The saying that you cut your mould doesnt really give a figure of how thick your bottom of mould is? The negatives i did before was 49 mm d in bottom and 45 mm on top. But all the time using different acrylics the longest curing time using my 36 w nail lamp was about 2 mins. Longer than that produce a solid rock  I also rotate my mould while curing. I also think it could be different acrylics behavure. The acrylic i use now is from mcear.de. I tried also Lisa Pavelkas gloss, but that gave the worst result ever. Best result was from one i ordered on aliexpress. It cured about 30-45 sec and made a real nice shell even it was the first ones i did.


----------



## userfault

lightsword said:


> Thanks for your advice! I've bought some and it should be arriving Wednesday!  My impression creation is decent, and I'm getting a lot better at using the Krystalloid. I'm hoping that by the time my Nice Fit arrives from China, I'll be ready and able to make quality shells with them! I'll write up a post detailing what I have learned, what has worked, and what hasn't. Unfortunately the list of failures and problems will be much longer than the list of successes :/ On the plus side, I've learned a lot regarding successful shellmaking and I'm getting better with time.  Thanks again for all the advice and the wisdom encompassed in this thread. I really appreciate it guys!


 
 Hi guys, long time lurker here(well about two years on and off). I work in the hearing aid industry and got the answers of some of your questions, but I noticed that you had those all figured out yourselves as I go on reading. Though I wanted to give you some info about waxing the impressions before making negatives. The wax we use in the company is Dreve's paraffin wax similar to those bead looking in the link: https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/paraffin-wax-granules-wholesale-paraffin-candle_60433777628.html
  
 And we use the red wax you are referring for filling the gaps(like the ones you have after you remove the cotton plug and have the threads' mark on the impression). I know that there is no right or wrong in this subject as long as it does the job for you. Just wanted to let you know about our usage. 
  
 Also I recall that somebody asked about little presure pot somewhere back in the thread for making soft silicone moulds. Soundlink has this little pot that seems to be enough for the job. I didn't use it or know anyone using it but stumbled across the pot and wanted to help if someone is still looking for something like this. http://www.soundlink.cn/productType/13/118 
  
 And I have seen that some of you have been looking for a good cheap cable. I have stumbled across this one on aliexpress and It has the best p/p ratio in my opinion. As far as I can see it is the same cable Ultimate Ears used until couple of years ago but with MMCX socket. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/VT-Audio-Cable-Silver-Plated-Cable-For-VT-6-1-Earphone-Upgrade-Cable-With-MMCX-For/32748790564.html?spm=2114.13010208.99999999.337.P7qK8t
  
 I also have a big universal shell modelled for my usage, I print it with a professional printer without any problems but I'm not sure if it can be 3d printed with abs systems, even If it is usable I will not be able to know the settings. If anyone is interested just PM me and I will send them to you via email.


----------



## userfault

I don't think it will be very useful for anyone in DIY thread actually, since we use digital process in the shell making and the whole system cost around 100k-150k euros. But @MuZo2 asked me in PM and I wanted to let anyone know. So the quick review of our shell making steps are like this:
 1. Get the physical impression of the ear.
 2. Trim the really excess parts, like the impression passing even the outer ear. We don't do much of trimming and smoothing before scanning just because it is too easy to smooth and trim in the software, it is matter of a choice actually.
 3. Scan the impression in a 3d ear impression scanner.
 4. Model the shell with the shell modelling software. 
 5. Use another software for slicing the output file, and send it to the printer. 
 6. Clean the mould after printing with isopropyl alcohol(Over %99 purity). And let it dry.
 7. After cure with nitro gas, UV curing machine. 
 8. Smooth the mould with dremel tool if you think it's necessary.
 9. Clean the dust with alcohol again.Let it dry.
 10. Dip in lacquer and final cure. 
  
 Edit:
  
 While I was messaging with @MuZo2 another thing that can be useful for you fellow DIYers popped into my mind. There is an app called 123dCatch for android(Don't know if it has IOS version as well.too lazy to check now). It is a 3d scanner using your mobile phone's camera. A bit tricky to use it but it gives good results imo. Just do not forget putting a newspaper or a magazine under the object you are scanning. The app is using the letters in papers to locate the coordinates as to my knowledge.
  
 I have seen couple of people in the thread are working with CAD files and making shells, with this one you can make your CAD designs custom maybe. I am not experienced in whole CAD area so I don't know if it will be easy or not but I guess a CAD experienced headfi'er can do it.


----------



## omgflyingbanana

Hey guys, check out my ER4 clone for $43!
  
Album

Parts List: Litz wire x10: ¥3

Shell: ¥39.90

Putty: ¥17.50 (note: you could buy this from Amazon for ~$1 more)

Dampers x2: ¥14

ED-29689 BA x2: ¥56

MMCX female connector x2: ¥11 (note: this is kind of pricey, relatively speaking. You can get 4 for $1 on Aliexpress w/ free shipping, or find cheaper listings on TaoBao)

MMCX cable: $10 (note: purchased a while ago from Aliexpress rather than TaoBao, price has since risen. There are definitely less expensive cables on TaoBao with comparable quality, but since I already had a cable I decided not to buy one).

Epoxy: ?? (already had)

Total (excluding shipping): ~$30 Shipping: ¥90 (~$13) Total (with shipping): $43

Notes As you may have noticed, this isn't a "true clone" of the ER4 since the filter is red rather than green and there is no resistor. I decided to omit the resistor to simplify things and to give the low-end a bit of a boost, but adding two 18 ohm surface resistors shouldn't cost more than $2. I went with red filters since I like my sound sig to be on the warm side; however the green filters have a fantastic neutral sound and I highly recommend going with those.

I decided to go with the shells without screws because I bought some shells with screws before and I did not like them at all. First of all, I believe the seller sent me the wrong screws because they refused to screw all the way, even with the correct screwdriver, making the shells loose. Secondly, the shells without screws seemed to feel a bit thicker and more durable in general. Finally, I thought epoxying the shells together would make the IEM more durable instead of a single screw applying pressure in a single area.

I decided to use putty to hold and seal the armature instead of epoxy/foam/tubing. I didn't use tubing because the internal opening of the Shure shell's nozzle was really small and angled, and it didn't look like the tubing would seal well to it. I didn't use epoxy because there was some sort of shield outside of the nozzle opening (see album) which created gaps too big to be filled with epoxy without the possibility of epoxy dripping into the nozzle. Foam was an option, but it requires constant pressure to seal well in the shield thing. Unlike the previous GK's used in a previous Shure build, the ED-29689's are much smaller and do not fit snugly into the shell. So I decided to use putty for the build, however I am worried about the armature shifting around and factors like temperature affecting it.

Some thoughts on using TaoBao: it is a bit of a process, I definitely recommend doing your research on how to effectively navigate and use it before jumping in OR using a reputable seller. Oddly enough, the subreddit /r/FashionReps has helped me enormously due to their expert knowledge in TaoBao. Basically you order your parts to be shipped to a consolidate warehouse and then the warehouse ships it to you. What makes this difficult is that there are many different sellers and they all only speak Chinese, and the entire website is in Chinese as well. I'd like to personally thank Google Translate for making this possible.

Thanks for reading! Hopefully this will be helpful


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Hello all!!!

I played around with some Zebra Wood today and decided to make it an official CIEM. Here is a couple pics!!!!


----------



## Lightsword

pete64 said:


> Well, the cylinder i use is 37,5 mm id and 35 mm high. The saying that you cut your mould doesnt really give a figure of how thick your bottom of mould is? The negatives i did before was 49 mm d in bottom and 45 mm on top. But all the time using different acrylics the longest curing time using my 36 w nail lamp was about 2 mins. Longer than that produce a solid rock  I also rotate my mould while curing. I also think it could be different acrylics behavure. The acrylic i use now is from mcear.de. I tried also Lisa Pavelkas gloss, but that gave the worst result ever. Best result was from one i ordered on aliexpress. It cured about 30-45 sec and made a real nice shell even it was the first ones i did.


 
 Hi Pete,
  
 Which acrylics did you get from aliexpress? I've actually got some Nice Fit on order myself and I'd love to hear what you used, and what worked well for you. I've so far been unable to create a successful shells even when going up to 8-12 minutes of cure time. To be fair, I've only tried some Magic Glos and an inexpensive DLP cure resin. The Magic Glos hasn't yet produced anything resembling a quality shell, and I've gotten only one kinda sorta rough shell out of the DLP resin when I was using it.


----------



## Pete64

This is the resin from Alievpress. I have not find any other that works for making shells. With 36w naillamp i cure this for about 30 sec and after 15 sec and checking each time https://m.aliexpress.com/item/1000000556087.html total cure time is typical about 45 - 60 sec, then pour out the excess and cure for 1 min and finally cure for 1 min in glycerin. I dont now how people succeed with Magic gloss? For me it either didnt cure enough or it was to thick.


----------



## piotrus-g

shilohsjustice said:


> Hello all!!!
> 
> I played around with some Zebra Wood today and decided to make it an official CIEM. Here is a couple pics!!!!


 
 And... now you're at cIEM industry quality, congarts! So when are you starting a company?


----------



## MuZo2

Are there discounts for thread members


----------



## Shilohsjustice

piotrus-g said:


> And... now you're at cIEM industry quality, congarts! So when are you starting a company?




I contacted a few local IEM companies a while ago to see if they were hiring, Alien Ears, Inearz, CTM, but nobody was interested in hiring anyone at the time, lol.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

I got some play time in today and made a set of universals, I was playing around with black ink and made some smoke shells, I used zebra wood for the faceplate, it's amazing what you can do when the house is quiet. 

 





And this is the mess I created doing them, lol.....


----------



## Squirg

shilohsjustice said:


> I got some play time in today and made a set of universals, I was playing around with black ink and made some smoke shells, I used zebra wood for the faceplate, it's amazing what you can do when the house is quiet.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Shiloh, you are the Man!  I'm still not getting that glass-like shine without using Lack3.  What are you using for polishing/buffing?  
  
 Top notch!!!


----------



## Shilohsjustice

squirg said:


> Shiloh, you are the Man!  I'm still not getting that glass-like shine without using Lack3.  What are you using for polishing/buffing?
> 
> Top notch!!!




Thanks for kind words!! The Universals do have a coat of lak3, in experimenting with the shells I found that adding the black colorant makes the shells softer and I've cracked some shells buffing them out earlier. However, I use a buffing arbor and blue or green compound.


----------



## Lightsword

pete64 said:


> This is the resin from Alievpress. I have not find any other that works for making shells. With 36w naillamp i cure this for about 30 sec and after 15 sec and checking each time https://m.aliexpress.com/item/1000000556087.html total cure time is typical about 45 - 60 sec, then pour out the excess and cure for 1 min and finally cure for 1 min in glycerin. I dont now how people succeed with Magic gloss? For me it either didnt cure enough or it was to thick.



Thanks! That's fantastic and I'll probably order some of that to try soon. I think I found the same stuff on Taobao and tried to order it, but Taobao is harder to ship liquids Internationally. I'll post my results when I'm done with my tests!


----------



## Pete64

This seller has a bit of history that he dont send the goods sometimes, and it could take some time for delivery. But this is the only resin i found that really works and price is quite nice. Good luck!


----------



## MuZo2

shilohsjustice said:


> I contacted a few local IEM companies a while ago to see if they were hiring, Alien Ears, Inearz, CTM, but nobody was interested in hiring anyone at the time, lol.


 

 You can start your own, be a entrepreneur.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

muzo2 said:


> You can start your own, be a entrepreneur.




 I guess now is as good a time as any to do a startup Company!! Technically speaking the only thing that would make me a company is a snazzy name and customers. Lol. The amount of IEM companies is relatively small in comparison to other fields of expertise.


----------



## Lightsword

We believe in you Shilohsjustice! You can do it


----------



## MrNick

Subbed.

Three questions:

1) How do the better creations sound?
2) Has anyone had success with a dynamic driver?
3) Will Shilohjustice hire me if he bases his startup in Colorado?


----------



## Shawn71

mrnick said:


> Subbed.
> 
> Three questions:
> 
> ...




Sorry Sir,your # is 6, so be patient,hes already assessing 5 noobs (sshh Im #2) to hire for his new venture "Shilso Ear Crafts".....and this is to your Q #3.


----------



## ForceMajeure

Congrats to you Shilo!
 You officially broke this thread haha


----------



## MrNick

shawn71 said:


> Sorry Sir,your # is 6, so be patient,hes already assessing 5 noobs (sshh Im #2) to hire for his new venture "Shilso Ear Crafts".....and this is to your Q #3.




This rabbit hole went deeper than I thought...

I think this is a great thread! I don't understand a damn thing being posted but that won't stop me from trying when funds permit.


----------



## jbr1971

mrnick said:


> Subbed.
> 
> Three questions:
> 
> ...


 
  
 I have not tried a dynamic only setup, but had good results with taking the BA drivers out of my Westone W4R's and adding a dynamic tuned to add some nice low end.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

forcemajeure said:


> Congrats to you Shilo!
> You officially broke this thread haha




☺️


----------



## MuZo2

I have 530 drivers and they L & R measure differently, wondering what might be wrong?  is one of the driver busted?


----------



## piotrus-g

muzo2 said:


> I have 530 drivers and they L & R measure differently, wondering what might be wrong?  is one of the driver busted?


 
 There is a mesh filter in 3700 driver unit spout, it looks like it's clogged.


----------



## MuZo2

For which FR? strange thing is it affecting only mids? because bass is there on both. These measurements are just of drivers put inside a ear tip. But measurements are consistent so its certainly a difference. I was wondering if pcb is affected somehow.


----------



## JorgePantalones

A few weeks ago I finished my first pair of CIEM's complete with an unsightly bubble, unwanted surface texture in a few spots, some inside cloudiness from cyanoacrylate gassing,... pretty much every classic error.  On this thread a few years ago they would have been great but nowadays they're a little embarassing.  Nevertheless, here they are:
  
 Still need to polish the tops a bit more:

  
 Bubble!  Luckily it doesn't affect anything:

  
 Made the cable too:


 My main goal for this first pair was to make something that fit well and had sound coming out of them.  Mission accomplished.  In fact, they sound pretty good too.
  
 While I worked out the technique of it, I didn't want to waste sets of nice BA's.  I took a pair of 8mm dynamic drivers out of some awful iem's that came free with a bluetooth device.  Oddly, they sound pretty amazing now.  Beginners luck maybe.  
  
 Big thanks to Shiloh, Pioutrus, etc, etc.  I'm psyched to keep going.
  
 Cheers!
 GEO


----------



## Pete64

Nice first time work there! Yes there is plenty room for errors, especially when you cant get hold of the right stuff to work with. Myself run into error using a new kind of acrylics as i try to find something that works well. I startet to use silicon for the negatives and found out that some acrylics that have a higher viscosity is really hard to cure while others with less viscosity is really easy to work with. You can mix a thicker acryl with laquer to make it right. Another thing i noticed was the impression laquer i use (insread of wax) is reacting to the silicon making bubbles. So yes there is a mess to straight out using other things then Dreve's fotoplast and laquer


----------



## MuZo2

jorgepantalones said:


> A few weeks ago I finished my first pair of CIEM's complete with an unsightly bubble, unwanted surface texture in a few spots, some inside cloudiness from cyanoacrylate gassing,... pretty much every classic error.  On this thread a few years ago they would have been great but nowadays they're a little embarassing.  Nevertheless, here they are:
> Big thanks to Shiloh, Pioutrus, etc, etc.  I'm psyched to keep going.
> 
> Cheers!
> GEO


 
  
 Great work Jorge, keep it up and soon you will have results like Shilo. Shiloh, Piotrus have taken it to next level but they have invested in huge amount of time and money to perfect it.
 Again the whole idea of DIY thread is to have fun and enjoy it.


----------



## jbr1971

jorgepantalones said:


> .....


 
  
 Congrats on getting your first set done. I went through a lot of trial and error learning how to do impressions/molds/shells, and in the end there are still miscues that I need to fix for the next set. For now though I am enjoying the fact they work and sound pretty good for a first try.
  
 People are still amazed when they see them and I tell them I made them myself.
  
 After all that you have learned with the first set, the next one will take an exponential leap forward. Have fun.


----------



## Squirg

Still need to polish a bit more, but I like how the smoke and Oak (Smoak?) turned out.  Thanks again for all your help HFers!  For anyone getting into this crazy obsession -- get the right stuff for the job!  I tried so many different kinds of acrylic, impression material, colloid, wax etc. before finally getting the right stuff that has been proven.  I could have saved a lot of time and
 money if I had just bought the proper stuff first time around.  It's so cool seeing everyone's progress -- newbies and pros alike!  Keep it coming!


----------



## briancortez2112

shilohsjustice said:


> Hello all!!!
> 
> I played around with some Zebra Wood today and decided to make it an official CIEM. Here is a couple pics!!!!


 
 Awesome job my man, this looks wonderful!!
 I wish we lived a bit closer, i would love to work with you.
 Looks like we have some things in common lol!


----------



## MuZo2

briancortez2112 said:


> Looks like we have some things in common lol!




More pictures, is it DIY?


----------



## mikkelmmk93

Hi all! 
 I am wondering if any of you know which drivers are used for the CustomArt Ei.xx and pro330v2?
 I have these in a IEM shell for testing ATM and as a DIY'er I can't help but want to know what I am listening to 
 I know the Ei.XX uses 2x 33AJ007i/9 - But I can't seem to find the mid/tweeter assembly.
 The pro330v2 I cant figure out since it is only semi translucent, but it has 3 driver where the 2 of them are in an assembly which appears to be two similar drivers coupled together.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

jorgepantalones said:


> A few weeks ago I finished my first pair of CIEM's complete with an unsightly bubble, unwanted surface texture in a few spots, some inside cloudiness from cyanoacrylate gassing,... pretty much every classic error.  On this thread a few years ago they would have been great but nowadays they're a little embarassing.  Nevertheless, here they are:
> 
> Still need to polish the tops a bit more:
> 
> ...




Those are great, most of our started in the same way!! Great job. They will get better the more you do!


----------



## Shilohsjustice

briancortez2112 said:


> Awesome job my man, this looks wonderful!!
> I wish we lived a bit closer, i would love to work with you.
> Looks like we have some things in common lol!




That would be cool if we lived close!! Maybe one day!!


----------



## Shilohsjustice

mikkelmmk93 said:


> Hi all!
> 
> I am wondering if any of you know which drivers are used for the CustomArt Ei.xx and pro330v2?
> 
> ...




Piotrus-g has the scoop,  But I'm sure it's a closely guarded secret that only he knows!!


----------



## mikkelmmk93

shilohsjustice said:


> Piotrus-g has the scoop,  But I'm sure it's a closely guarded secret that only he knows!!


 
 I figured that perhaps someone somehow had seen one with a clear shell and memorized it - you never know 
 Have you heard any of his products?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

squirg said:


> Still need to polish a bit more, but I like how the smoke and Oak (Smoak?) turned out.  Thanks again for all your help HFers!  For anyone getting into this crazy obsession -- get the right stuff for the job!  I tried so many different kinds of acrylic, impression material, colloid, wax etc. before finally getting the right stuff that has been proven.  I could have saved a lot of time and
> money if I had just bought the proper stuff first time around.  It's so cool seeing everyone's progress -- newbies and pros alike!  Keep it coming!



Squirg did you use your new curing oven for these?? Great results!!!


----------



## Lightsword

Hi everyone!
  
 Happy Thanksgiving to everyone! 
 I'm on the hunt for a good soldering iron/soldering workstation. I was wondering if anyone had any recommendations and if anyone had seen any on sale for black friday? Thanks again for the ideas and suggestions!


----------



## Shilohsjustice

lightsword said:


> Hi everyone!
> 
> Happy Thanksgiving to everyone!
> I'm on the hunt for a good soldering iron/soldering workstation. I was wondering if anyone had any recommendations and if anyone had seen any on sale for black friday? Thanks again for the ideas and suggestions!




This is the one I have, I like it a lot!!!


----------



## Squirg

shilohsjustice said:


> Squirg did you use your new curing oven for these?? Great results!!!


 
 I did!  Worked like a dream!  For the dark acrylic such as these, it works fantastic.  But, it is almost too powerful for clear and light shells.  The unit is preset for different types of nightguards and dentures and you can't program -- say, 10 seconds.  Wish I could hack in and change settings.  But, it does cure very evenly and quick!  Now if I could only pipe in Nitrogen!
  
 Now I'm hunting for a colloid/duplicating machine.
  
 Speaking off... I noticed Aliexpress is now selling Nice-Fit acrylic, Krystalloid, and other goodies for us DIYers.  Maybe not so new, but I couldn't find it there until recently.  Much easier than MisterTao...
  
 https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Hearing-Aid-Material-Nice-fit-Brand-Transparent-Hard-Earmold-Material-For-Hard-Earmold-Making/32305126755.html?spm=2114.13010108.99999999.12.wheF63
  
 BTW, congrats on your work, Shiloh!  You are making some killer stuff!  Have you been trading them for money? (wink,wink)


----------



## ForceMajeure

Hello guys,
  
 I was browsing some twitter accounts of DIYers from Japan...This guy just received his order from Soundlink (aliexpress). Apparently 11.11's order.
  
 Kinda going crazy haha, he received 20 rab drivers!
  
 https://twitter.com/piyonzawa/status/802077865701347329
  
   
  
 He also bought a few months ago the Nice-fit fotoplast from soundlink
 He have some pictures of shells he has done with it...unfortunately my Japanese is not the sharpest to say the least and so is google translate. So it is kinda difficult to get a good idea of the results to be expected with this fotoplast. (he is also a DIYer so learning on the way...) 
  
 If anyone can get a good translation about yellowing issues that he might have encountered and talked about and what are his thought about the nice-fit while browsing is twitter.
  
 This would be very much appreciated.


----------



## Seph Haley

I just started reading all this, boy is there a way to go... But this seems extremely interesting!


----------



## jbr1971

seph haley said:


> I just started reading all this, boy is there a way to go... But this seems extremely interesting!


 
  
 It is very addictive. Before you are done reading the thread you will already be planning your first design and accompanying shopping list.
  
 Have fun.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

jbr1971 said:


> It is very addictive. Before you are done reading the thread you will already be planning your first design and accompanying shopping list.
> 
> Have fun.




It's very very very addictive!! 

I made some universals today, my wife finally jumped on board and ask me to make her a pair of yellow and smokey universals with a bird.... lol this is what came of the request...


----------



## Seph Haley

shilohsjustice said:


> It's very very very addictive!!
> 
> I made some universals today, my wife finally jumped on board and ask me to make her a pair of yellow and smokey universals with a bird.... lol this is what came of the request...



Those look GORGEOUS, holy crap! What are the specs on them?


----------



## piotrus-g

seph haley said:


> Those look GORGEOUS, holy crap! What are the specs on them?


 
 Looks like Savant copy


----------



## sanekn

Good evening you guys!
  
 I wonder if you could advise me for an BA reference to make a good, relatively cheap and 1 way universal for friends  
  
 Thank you in advance !
  
 BTW really gorgeous work here!


----------



## Shilohsjustice

piotrus-g said:


> Looks like Savant copy




They are a Savant Clone, inexpensive to make and I bought enough drivers to make 5 pairs. This was the last of the drivers I had, lol. Fun sounding 2driver!


----------



## Shilohsjustice

The stretched tubing around the ED-30761 gives it away, ☺️!

Aww the joys of DIY!!!


----------



## Shilohsjustice

sanekn said:


> Good evening you guys!
> 
> I wonder if you could advise me for an BA reference to make a good, relatively cheap and 1 way universal for friends
> 
> ...




The BK-28507 is a great single driver setup. It's what westone uses in the UM Pro 10. 

Coupled with a gray damper it's a good sounding driver.


----------



## sanekn

Thank you man, you're my hero haha ! 
  
 Will definetely try it out 
  
 Cheers!


----------



## Shilohsjustice

The BK-28507 is $14.72 a driver from Mouser. Plus 6.99 for shipping. About $40 bucks total for 2 with shipping.


----------



## Seph Haley

shilohsjustice said:


> They are a Savant Clone, inexpensive to make and I bought enough drivers to make 5 pairs. This was the last of the drivers I had, lol. Fun sounding 2driver!



What are you doing with the extras you made?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

seph haley said:


> What are you doing with the extras you made?




I made 1 - clear universal for me
I made 1 - custom for me
I made 1 - universal for my sister in-law
I made 1 - universal for my wife
I made 1 - universal pictured below to test out the zebra wood I bought, currently has no owner !


----------



## Pete64

Hi all pros! I've submitted in new thread a question on what to beware of when i'll be reshelling my Shure se530? I got very few answers so i ask the same in this thread. I read about someone else send his to a iem company for the reshelling (i do mine myself) and he noticed a clearly less bass after. I really want to try to avoid that and any other worse soundchange. I am greatful for any tips to make this a sucess


----------



## Seph Haley

shilohsjustice said:


> I made 1 - clear universal for me
> I made 1 - custom for me
> I made 1 - universal for my sister in-law
> I made 1 - universal for my wife
> I made 1 - universal pictured below to test out the zebra wood I bought, currently has no owner !



I'm guessing by that wink that it may be for sale? If it is, how much for that pair?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

seph haley said:


> I'm guessing by that wink that it may be for sale? If it is, how much for that pair?




I haven't traded any for money yet, lol.


----------



## Seph Haley

shilohsjustice said:


> I haven't traded any for money yet, lol.



Oh I see, what do you trade them for?


----------



## MuZo2

seph haley said:


> Oh I see, what do you trade them for?



Maybe more UV resin or drivers.


----------



## ForceMajeure

pete64 said:


> Hi all pros! I've submitted in new thread a question on what to beware of when i'll be reshelling my Shure se530? I got very few answers so i ask the same in this thread. I read about someone else send his to a iem company for the reshelling (i do mine myself) and he noticed a clearly less bass after. I really want to try to avoid that and any other worse soundchange. I am greatful for any tips to make this a sucess


 
 AFAIK, Bass will depend on seal, if you got a perfect seal bass shouldn't change.
 Sound might be a tiny bit different as some drivers will be closer to your eardrum. The closer some drivers are (ED and 2389 usually) the better they usually sound (slightly better treble extension, soundstage/imaging).
  
 If you want to have the same sound try to keep the same length between the drivers in the universal relative to your eardrum.
 Make sure to use the same dampers, diameter opening and so on...


----------



## MuZo2

forcemajeure said:


> AFAIK, Bass will depend on seal, if you got a perfect seal bass shouldn't change.
> Sound might be a tiny bit different as some drivers will be closer to your eardrum. The closer some drivers are (ED and 2389 usually) the better they usually sound (slightly better treble extension, soundstage/imaging).
> 
> If you want to have the same sound try to keep the same length between the drivers in the universal relative to your eardrum.
> Make sure to use the same dampers, diameter opening and so on...


 

 Thats not entirely true for 535 as bass driver is ported, so it also sounds different based on shell size.


----------



## ForceMajeure

muzo2 said:


> Thats not entirely true for 535 as bass driver is ported, so it also sounds different based on shell size.


 
  
 Interesting


----------



## Pete64

Thanks! So that means that 530 and 535 are the exactly same drivers? I will do as you suggest and if i can make the sound even better, of course that's an bonus  I surely want to keep or increase the bass, and i read about the filters 530 vs 535 and will make them changeble to see if i will get the treble less rolled off.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

muzo2 said:


> Maybe more UV resin or drivers.




I would definitely do that!! Lol


----------



## Seph Haley

Okay, I could probably do that... do you have a specific brand of either that you like?


----------



## Pete64

Yes! Now we will get educated


----------



## Shilohsjustice

seph haley said:


> Okay, I could probably do that... do you have a specific brand of either that you like?




I use Dreve Fotoplast and knowles Drivers.


----------



## Seph Haley

shilohsjustice said:


> I use Dreve Fotoplast and knowles Drivers.



For the resin would you want the fotoplast lacquer, hard UV, or the gel?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

seph haley said:


> For the resin would you want the fotoplast lacquer, hard UV, or the gel?


Hard UV would work.


----------



## MuZo2

You should take it to PM now 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Final discussions.


----------



## Seph Haley

muzo2 said:


> You should take it to PM now  Final discussions.



Yeah I was thinking that sorry.


----------



## JorgePantalones

My first pair of CIEM's turned out well.  As I progress down this road, I'm inclined to add just a little here and there, keeping the progression steady and simple.
  
 I have another pair of the same 8mm dynamic drivers I used on my first pair.  For the most part, bass is good while not overwhelming.  Separation and soundstage are surprisingly good.  I'd like to add some depth & detail to mids and highs now.  I'm thinking add a GQ series to each side?  I guess the other option would be a GK.  Of course, this will be my first adventure in BA so I'm trying to find a good point at which to 'jump in' and test the water.
  
 Going back through the archives here, I'm not sure some of these options existed the last time we had a dynamic driver pairing discussion.
  
 Input?


----------



## Seph Haley

jorgepantalones said:


> My first pair of CIEM's turned out well.  As I progress down this road, I'm inclined to add just a little here and there, keeping the progression steady and simple.
> 
> I have another pair of the same 8mm dynamic drivers I used on my first pair.  For the most part, bass is good while not overwhelming.  Separation and soundstage are surprisingly good.  I'd like to add some depth & detail to mids and highs now.  I'm thinking add a GQ series to each side?  I guess the other option would be a GK.  Of course, this will be my first adventure in BA so I'm trying to find a good point at which to 'jump in' and test the water.
> 
> ...



A picture of them?


----------



## Pete64

As read in another question im reshelling my se530's, i also want to reshell my se 215 and that's a different story since they are dynamic. Any suggestions here to improve bass? or sound in genarally? I have some BA's at the table  What would you pros been done?


----------



## sanekn

jorgepantalones said:


> My first pair of CIEM's turned out well.  As I progress down this road, I'm inclined to add just a little here and there, keeping the progression steady and simple.
> 
> I have another pair of the same 8mm dynamic drivers I used on my first pair.  For the most part, bass is good while not overwhelming.  Separation and soundstage are surprisingly good.  I'd like to add some depth & detail to mids and highs now.  I'm thinking add a GQ series to each side?  I guess the other option would be a GK.  Of course, this will be my first adventure in BA so I'm trying to find a good point at which to 'jump in' and test the water.
> 
> ...


 
 Hello, If you want a GK, make sure to buy them on aliexpress rather than on mouser, the difference in price is really big!


----------



## Shilohsjustice

sanekn said:


> Hello, If you want a GK, make sure to buy them on aliexpress rather than on mouser, the difference in price is really big!




I've only found the GK's for $89 a pair on AliExpress, on Mouser they are $88.32 for a pair. Maybe you can post the link with the GK's at the better price, I'd be interested in that info.


----------



## jbr1971

jorgepantalones said:


> ...
> 
> Input?


 
  
 Yes, keeping tube length consistent from side to side will make a big difference in imaging, etc.
  
 When I added the dynamic to my Westone drivers, I used a red damper on the dynamic and the original crossover for the ba's. I found the ba's had a good high/mid sound already, and only wanted to add low end to the mix.
  
 While the overall combination sounds pretty good (for a proof of concept), I would imagine getting into resistors and capacitors would allow for much better frequency tuning for the dynamic, as well as whatever ba combo I want to try next. I definitely need to do more reading on the proper applications for them.
  
 Maybe I will get around to making my next set over the Christmas break if I can settle on a design and get all of the parts together by then.


----------



## CoiL

If You are generous enoguh, could You share some informations how to implement crossovers with capacitors and resistors?


----------



## sanekn

sanekn said:


> Hello, If you want a GK, make sure to buy them on aliexpress rather than on mouser, the difference in price is really big!



Oh. My mistake here, sorry. I remember buying them like 90€ a pair from digikey and shipping plus import taxes bring me to the 120€ or something. They were not aviable at mouser at this time...


----------



## Sunnyboy

Id like to make a CIEM which i can also use for sport. But neither the MMCX nor the 2 Pin connector look safe for this purpose.
 There are threaded MMCX Connectors (Q-Jays, some High Quality Cables) but i havent found them to buy yet. 
 Does anyone have an information or tip where i could get them?
 Thanks for reading this.
  
  
http://cdn.head-fi.org/a/a7/a701687d_SAM_1937.jpeg
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/502d756fe4b0ad2559801b56/5761706e60b5e9d6cf8505bc/5761707001dbaeb2afbd61a2/1466003570158/q-Jays+cable+threads-1.jpg


----------



## sanekn

sunnyboy said:


> Id like to make a CIEM which i can also use for sport. But neither the MMCX nor the 2 Pin connector look safe for this purpose.
> There are threaded MMCX Connectors (Q-Jays, some High Quality Cables) but i havent found them to buy yet.
> Does anyone have an information or tip where i could get them?
> Thanks for reading this.
> ...


 
 I don't know if this is what you searching for, but at aliexpress you have some. Not sure if they working well for audio...


----------



## Sunnyboy

Unfortuantely not really, these are MMXC to normal Coax connector. But thanks for the Help


----------



## Lightsword

Hi everyone,
 I'm finally getting somewhere with my investments and using the nicefit, but I'm having a problem with my materials sticking to my cover I'm using to block the UV from the top of the investment. Any thoughts? I'm using a plastic cover that I've covered to prevent light from coming through the top, but I'm guessing light is coming through the bottom and hardening the UV materials against the cover. Thanks!


----------



## sanekn

lightsword said:


> Hi everyone,
> I'm finally getting somewhere with my investments and using the nicefit, but I'm having a problem with my materials sticking to my cover I'm using to block the UV from the top of the investment. Any thoughts? I'm using a plastic cover that I've covered to prevent light from coming through the top, but I'm guessing light is coming through the bottom and hardening the UV materials against the cover. Thanks!



Hi! Just use the cover that is lifted frol the center, like a bottle cap but bigger or try to make one by cutting two circles - one donut style and the other one plain and then stick them together  hope you dill understand my poor english!


----------



## MuZo2

Can you post pics of negative impressions? Are they flat at top? I have used ALU foil successfully to block light.


----------



## Lightsword

sanekn said:


> Hi! Just use the cover that is lifted frol the center, like a bottle cap but bigger or try to make one by cutting two circles - one donut style and the other one plain and then stick them together
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Yes, I do understand and thank you for the advice  I'll have to see if I can come up with some sor to light blocking cover.
  
  


muzo2 said:


> Can you post pics of negative impressions? Are they flat at top? I have used ALU foil successfully to block light.


 
 Yes my negatives are flat on the top, and I'll try to post a picture as well. 
  

  
  
 And here's a couple of photos of the current light shield I'm using as well.
 It's a decently thin piece of plastic, and its covered with a few strips of electrical tape to create the lightproof barrier.
 Top side: 

  
  
  
 Bottom side (Closest to investment)


----------



## Lightsword

Also, here's my current UV curing station. 
 I've taken the traditional 36w UV nail lamp, and flipped it upside down. I was having a hard time getting even curing with the standard configuration, so I've grabbed a thin sheet of plexiglass, and placed it across the upside down lamp. The idea, being that the light coming up from the bottom would better cure the sides and the bowl of the ear. I'm now working on getting my cure times down correctly for the Nicefit UV resin. Anyway, I thought I'd share my ideas and see if anyone had any suggestions.


----------



## ForceMajeure

That's the problem...light is coming from the bottom hardening the upper part of the shell also although they are under a cover.
  
 what hydrocolloid material are you using?


----------



## dustdevil

forcemajeure said:


> That's the problem...light is coming from the bottom hardening the upper part of the shell also although they are under a cover.
> 
> what hydrocolloid material are you using?


 
 I think the problem is that he is currently placing the lighter side of the cover facing the investment and is reflecting UV light to the top part of the shell, which can be fixed by taping the other side of his cover


----------



## Lightsword

forcemajeure said:


> That's the problem...light is coming from the bottom hardening the upper part of the shell also although they are under a cover.
> 
> what hydrocolloid material are you using?


 
  
 Hi ForceMajeure, 
 I'm using the Krystalloid hydrocolloid material as an investment material. I'll keep that in mind, but honestly, I don't think that the light direction is the problem. Also, I was experiencing the exact same problem when I was originally using using the lamp right side up. I was getting the same or more attachment issues with the lid as well. 
  
  


dustdevil said:


> I think the problem is that he is currently placing the lighter side of the cover facing the investment and is reflecting UV light to the top part of the shell, which can be fixed by taping the other side of his cover


 
  
 Hi Dustdevil,
 Thanks for the idea. I think this may be the correct answer and my possible solution. I'll give this a shot and try to report back with my results. I did try Aluminum for my cover at first, but even covering it in clear plastic didn't prevent things from adhering to it pretty strongly.
  
 Having the light on the bottom, combined with my fresh Krystalloid has drastically reduced my curing time and has in turn made the bond between the new shell and the cover much thinner. I'm hoping that the cover won't adhere and this allow the shell to stay in place, thus creating the extremely smooth shells that Shiloughsjustice demonstrated previously 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Anyway, I absolutely love this community and everyone's guidance and support! I'll report back with my results!


----------



## ForceMajeure

If you have old cd/cd-r/dvd-r cases you don't use you can use the black part to cut out a cover, it works.


----------



## sanekn

Just bought 4 BK drivers with everything to create and complete some universals, wish me luck haha


----------



## Shilohsjustice

sanekn said:


> Just bought 4 BK drivers with everything to create and complete some universals, wish me luck haha




Good luck :thumbsup_tone1:


----------



## jbr1971

@Shilohsjustice
  
 When you are coating impressions with wax, do you find that you need to do a quick dip and remove to get a thin layer of wax, or can you leave the impression in for some time and still get a thin layer.
  
 I am concerned that if I leave the impressions in too long it will allow too much wax to build up, as my impressions are already a snug fit. I just want a minimal amount of wax to smooth out the impression.


----------



## JorgePantalones

jbr1971 said:


> @Shilohsjustice
> 
> When you are coating impressions with wax, do you find that you need to do a quick dip and remove to get a thin layer of wax, or can you leave the impression in for some time and still get a thin layer.
> 
> I am concerned that if I leave the impressions in too long it will allow too much wax to build up, as my impressions are already a snug fit. I just want a minimal amount of wax to smooth out the impression.


 

 I find the opposite.  A quick dip means the impression stays cooler and thus hardens more wax around it.  When I leave them in, they warm up to the waxes temperature and solidify just the thinnest of coats.
  
 Shiloh's answer, with video:  post #4719
  
 "A couple things about wax dipping, make sure the temperature of the wax is between 125 degrees Fahrenheit (51.6 degrees Celsius) and 132 degrees Fahrenheit (55.5 degrees Celsius), any cooler than that and the dip will be clumpy and thick and any hotter than that the wax will be too hot and thin"


----------



## Shilohsjustice

At the right temperature it is a smooth motion, down and up, not too fast. If you are getting a thin layer it is because your temperature is too hot.


----------



## ForceMajeure

I remember some where curious about what half tap/coil meant.
 Here is a nice picture helping visualizing that.
 On the left you can see a driver with the coil and wiring. One of the wires is "attached" (there is a solder point) roughly at the middle of the coil from there to the center solder pad.
 Basically it will give half the resistance allowing more output, usually treble output where the impedance is higher by default (BA impedance curve being not linear and usually rise as the frequency rises).


----------



## Squirg

I am finally getting the hang of buffing/polishing rather than relying on Lacquer.  I'm curious what techniques and products everyone is using.  I have had catastrophes whilst polishing but since going to a smaller wheel (3-4 inch) I have had fewer flying earpieces and heart attacks.  Speaking of...that feeling when an IEM goes shooting threw your garage at mach speed!...Horrifying!
  
 Anyhoo, what are you guys using for polishing compound and other tips might be useful?  I have been using the blue and white compound from Harbor Freight which seems to work okay.
  
 Thanks Y'all!


----------



## rjcruiz25

Any configuration in 6 BA or 8 BA driver with crossover, please share your best tuning?
 please post your diagram how to connect wiring, cap and resistor 

 thanks friend


----------



## Shilohsjustice

squirg said:


> I am finally getting the hang of buffing/polishing rather than relying on Lacquer.  I'm curious what techniques and products everyone is using.  I have had catastrophes whilst polishing but since going to a smaller wheel (3-4 inch) I have had fewer flying earpieces and heart attacks.  Speaking of...that feeling when an IEM goes shooting threw your garage at mach speed!...Horrifying!
> 
> Anyhoo, what are you guys using for polishing compound and other tips might be useful?  I have been using the blue and white compound from Harbor Freight which seems to work okay.
> 
> Thanks Y'all!




I KNOW THE FEELING OF IEMS GOING SHOOTING ACROSS THE GARAGE!! Lol, it sucks especially when you've already invested HOURS into the build. 

They look beautiful!!!


----------



## boon27

I like to share my homemade universal iem I made a few months ago.  I kind of prefer making it non custom so I could ask others to test on the sound quality of it.  Custom made is also expensive as well, so making this only cost me about $120.
  

  
  
  
 I used a GK knowles and shure parts bought from ali express and no filter.  I am still having trouble determine which glue material best to use to seal the BA into the nozzle, replacing part D and E.  I used silicone, but it was risky and did not get a perfect seal.  I did not want to use anything permanent glue either.  But  with iem shell fully sealed, the sound quality I get is superb!  Ever since then, I can't really buy another iem to replace these.  
  
  
 I decided to reduce the cost for my second iem  by using the apple iem connect with a RAB-32257-000.  The interior of the apple iem have a piece of plastic which I can easily insert the BA.  This 2nd iem is too easy to accomplish.  I had to seal the small homes back of the shell for a good seal.  I think it's also possible to 3D print your own IEM shell too, something similar to a etymotic HF5 shell.
  
Now I am left with a GQ, and I heard from some previous post that it is possible to combine a GQ and a RAB together with no crossover? 
  
  


rjcruiz25 said:


> Any configuration in 6 BA or 8 BA driver with crossover, please share your best tuning?
> please post your diagram how to connect wiring, cap and resistor
> 
> thanks friend


 
  
 I would really like to know information on this too, even for a 4-5 BA. I'm still noob on crossovers


----------



## rjcruiz25

thanks for sharing , i already make GQ and RAB 3 driver  and parralel connection, from chris.furcon configuration he help me for this project...

 please check picture 
 http://prntscr.com/dgp2xb
 http://prntscr.com/dgp371
 http://prntscr.com/dgp3c3


----------



## MuZo2

rjcruiz25 said:


> thanks for sharing , i already make GQ and RAB 3 driver  and parralel connection, from chris.furcon configuration he help me for this project...
> 
> please check picture
> http://prntscr.com/dgp2xb
> ...


 

 Great work, they look quiet good for your first diy set. How do they sound?


----------



## rjcruiz25

thanks, sounds is so nice, compare my other ciem dynamic driver http://prntscr.com/dgw3ki

 this is my 1st ciem 3BA driver i made http://prnt.sc/dgp2xb

 im planing to make 6-8 BA but i dont know how to configuration and what i will use BA driver and how i work in crossover...

 home any one can help me this new project 

 sorry for my bad english


----------



## Whitigir

Interesting ! I so want to do these. Can somebody please tell me where to read up on Cross-over, and where to source the Drivers including dynamic drivers too ? Thank you


----------



## boon27

rjcruiz25 said:


> thanks for sharing , i already make GQ and RAB 3 driver  and parralel connection, from chris.furcon configuration he help me for this project...
> 
> please check picture
> http://prntscr.com/dgp2xb
> ...


 
 Thanks, those looks great!  I think I may try it, I didnt know you can use parallel circuit for it.  But I just realized I have some DTEC laying around,  DTEC seems to be good for mid, but whats the best combination with a GQ+DTEC? Should I use low band crossover or parallel? or just plug in straight voltage.


----------



## bvmonie

> Can someone tell me what container and base is used in this picture please? (the actual cylinder part and the gray bottom piece)
> 
> And where to buy it?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

The technical term for a mold is an "investment" the pic shows an example of an investment. 

The cylinder is called the "investment form"

The base is called the "investment cuff"

Those are the technical terms used in the industry. I hope this answers your questions.

I buy them from Warnertech care products. 

The cuffs are per piece and the forms are for a bag of 25 I think.


----------



## rjcruiz25

bvmonie said:


>


 
 you can buy here 
 https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Large-size-transparent-making-ear-model-use-casting-ring-with-removable-bottom-part/1867781838.html?spm=2114.13010608.0.0.LbT612


----------



## bvmonie

rjcruiz25 said:


> you can buy here
> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Large-size-transparent-making-ear-model-use-casting-ring-with-removable-bottom-part/1867781838.html?spm=2114.13010608.0.0.LbT612


 
  
 Thanks so much, ive been searching for days. I didnt want to ask but i couldnt find it. 
  
 Looks like ill be waiting the 2week min from Aliexpress. Im going to order a few other things also.


----------



## audioxxx

whitigir said:


> Interesting ! I so want to do these. Can somebody please tell me where to read up on Cross-over, and where to source the Drivers including dynamic drivers too ? Thank you




Good read here on xover and calc for frequency dividers.

http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-RCpad.htm


----------



## dustdevil

shilohsjustice said:


> The technical term for a mold is an "investment" the pic shows an example of an investment.
> 
> The cylinder is called the "investment form"
> 
> ...


 
 I like technical terms especially those used in the industry


----------



## sowright

I've used plastic containers like this, just use a dremel to cut the bottom off.  Works great so far
  
http://www.hobbylobby.com/Art-Supplies/Painting-Supplies/Palettes-Tools/Small-Clear-Plastic-Storage-Cups-with-Lids/p/7089-GO0917


----------



## sowright

Hey guys, long time lurker here.  I've learned a lot from this forum and hope to contribute going forward...
  
 I'm exited about this "hobby" and am already very invested.


----------



## sowright

bvmonie said:


>



I've been using a plastic cup with a screw on lid i purchased at a local arts/crafts store.  Just use a Dremel to cut off the bottom and you end up with a nice "investment form" and "cuff".  Krystaloid slides right out after screwing off the lid.  I'll post a pic of mine once the forum allows me.

edit: sorry for the repeat  moderators had to approve my previous post with the link until i get more cred.


----------



## sowright

First up...if anyone is looking for shell material.  I've found the Egger material from audiologysupplies (dotcom) for $61 for 150ml.  Best price/volume I've seen.
  
 I've had great success with it and love the results.
  
 I also tried the NiceFit shell material from TaoBoa, but never was successful with it.  I never could get it to cure evenly.  I kept extending my time period under UV, then it got to a point where it would cure all the way through almost immediately.


----------



## MuZo2

Welcome, looking forward to some pics of your creation and tools.


----------



## EasyEnemy

very informative thread. i don't feel confident to try it myself but it clear some of my doubts if whether the Chinese custom IEM are legit. Thank you very much Bilavideo.


----------



## bvmonie

sowright said:


> First up...if anyone is looking for shell material.  I've found the Egger material from audiologysupplies (dotcom) for $61 for 150ml.  Best price/volume I've seen.
> 
> I've had great success with it and love the results.
> 
> I also tried the NiceFit shell material from TaoBoa, but never was successful with it.  I never could get it to cure evenly.  I kept extending my time period under UV, then it got to a point where it would cure all the way through almost immediately.


 
 Estimate on how many shells 150ml makes?


----------



## jbr1971

bvmonie said:


> Estimate on how many shells 150ml makes?


 
  
 I have 100g (91ml) of Fotoplast SIO and I have made around 12 pairs of shells (hoping I have just enough left for 1 more pair).
  
 Granted, there was a lot of trial and error involved with varying shell thickness, touchups, etc so you should get at least 20 pairs with 150ml depending on your learning curve.


----------



## bvmonie

Awesome thank you
  
 Also ive read good and bad about the Egger product. Is the fotoplast "that" much better? Is it worth the price difference? Id rather spend the extra few $$$ to get a better end result and not waste my time.


----------



## jbr1971

bvmonie said:


> Awesome thank you
> 
> Also ive read good and bad about the Egger product. Is the fotoplast "that" much better? Is it worth the price difference? Id rather spend the extra few $$$ to get a better end result and not waste my time.


 
  
 I have only used Fotoplast, so I am unable to provide a comparison.
  
 With the results I have achieved (once I figured out what I was doing), I believe it is worth it, but that is definitely up to you and your wallet.


----------



## rjcruiz25

Hi friend Any one can help me how to polish my ciem shell


----------



## MuZo2

They look great, what material is those?


----------



## rjcruiz25

muzo2 said:


> They look great, what material is those?


 
 i use 
 https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Earmold-Lab-Related-Products-Nice-fit-Brand-Transparent-Hard-Earmold-Material-For-Hard-Earmold-Making/32305114484.html?spm=2114.13010608.0.0.NhK3oQ

 then the color is resin pigment, you can buy in ebay, resin pigment just search its many brand...


----------



## ForceMajeure

rjcruiz25 said:


> Hi friend Any one can help me how to polish my ciem shell


 
 To polish them you have a few choices:
  
 If you think they are smooth enough and don't have bumps you can lacquer them directly with the appropriate uv lacquer (dreve,egger)
  
 If they have small bumps you can sand them using sand paper from 500 to 2000 even up to 5000 grit (though 2000 is high enough) then you buff them using blue "rouge polish" compound with a buff wheel or dremel with cotton tips like those 
  
 You can buff them directly if you think they are smooth already that's the technique @Shilohsjustice uses he also use the following compound 
  
 You can also sand them up to 2000 grit and lacquer them with the appropriate lacquer it gets shiny also.
  
 Regarding the shells you made using Nice-fit, can you elaborate about it, have you tried to make clear shells? Do they have a yellowish tint to them?
 Your shells looks great but you don't have to make them as thick you can cure them less time so they are thinner.


----------



## ForceMajeure

jbr1971 said:


> I have 100g (91ml) of Fotoplast SIO and I have made around 12 pairs of shells (hoping I have just enough left for 1 more pair).
> 
> Granted, there was a lot of trial and error involved with varying shell thickness, touchups, etc so you should get at least 20 pairs with 150ml depending on your learning curve.


 
 When you refer to Fotoplast S IO, you refer to Dreve's fotoplast?


----------



## bvmonie

rjcruiz25 said:


> i use
> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Earmold-Lab-Related-Products-Nice-fit-Brand-Transparent-Hard-Earmold-Material-For-Hard-Earmold-Making/32305114484.html?spm=2114.13010608.0.0.NhK3oQ
> 
> 
> then the color is resin pigment, you can buy in ebay, resin pigment just search its many brand...




Can you tell us your process for these?


----------



## Trying2Learn

So my Fidue A73 hybrids went into the washing machine and didn't survive, but there's a board here maybe a crossover? I have no idea but I just know that the IEM is one dynamic and one BA on each side.


----------



## mikkelmmk93

trying2learn said:


> So my Fidue A73 hybrids went into the washing machine and didn't survive, but there's a board here maybe a crossover? I have no idea but I just know that the IEM is one dynamic and one BA on each side.


 
 That most certainly is a cross over.


----------



## sanekn

Guys, just quick question here for engraving... Is the NEJE 1000mW engraving laser good enough for iem shells? Anybody have this type of equipement here?


----------



## rjcruiz25

bvmonie said:


> Can you tell us your process for these?


 
 check this one,

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdopJzTfdZw


----------



## jbr1971

forcemajeure said:


> When you refer to Fotoplast S IO, you refer to Dreve's fotoplast?


 
 Yes, it is Dreve Fotoplast.


----------



## jbr1971

I have a couple of questions that I am hoping someone here can answer. I can't recall the subject ever being brought up before.
  
 Has anyone tried using MELF resistors in their builds? If so, is there a measurable difference in audio quality?
  
 I came across the HUM Pristine quite a while ago, and I am thinking about building a version of it. There is something about the "simplicity" of the design I really like (almost like a supercharged Savant), and the reviews have been pretty favorable.
  
 My electronics skills are still very beginner in this area so I just want to clear things up. Am I correct in assuming MELF resistors work the same as other types of resistors with equal ratings, but are made for better tolerances/reliability?


----------



## mattmatt

Anyone have good experience with Nice fit acrylic and agar? Just want to make sure that they give good finish or I should just look away from them but their price compared to Dreve is to tempting to jump in to. 

Also, anyone have luck with using cold cure acrylic or has the knowledge with it. Like what Westone use. Thank a lot.


----------



## jbr1971

jbr1971 said:


> I have a couple of questions that I am hoping someone here can answer. I can't recall the subject ever being brought up before.
> 
> Has anyone tried using MELF resistors in their builds? If so, is there a measurable difference in audio quality?
> 
> ...


 
  
 I realized that I forgot to ask about film electrolytic capacitors in addition to the MELF resistors, as the Pristine uses them as well.


----------



## sowright

mattmatt said:


> Anyone have good experience with Nice fit acrylic and agar? Just want to make sure that they give good finish or I should just look away from them but their price compared to Dreve is to tempting to jump in to.
> 
> Also, anyone have luck with using cold cure acrylic or has the knowledge with it. Like what Westone use. Thank a lot.


 
  
 I've tried NiceFit with Krystalod with no success.  I've tried a handful of times, each attempt increasing the time in UV and the NiceFit would come out lumpy with no wall for the shells.  Then at about 1 minute under the uv, it would almost instantly cure all the way through.  Maybe I'm using the wrong UV lights??  I ordered a 12v 120 LED strip of 395-405nm leds that I stuck on the inside of a used packing tape roll.
  
Now I'm using Egger shell material instead and getting much better results.  This shell is after 12 seconds under UV.  Results in a stiff shell with a fairly thin wall.


----------



## rjcruiz25

Hi friend
 Any one idea how to make face plate with white print design. like this http://prntscr.com/dir9p4

 thanks


----------



## rjcruiz25

forcemajeure said:


> To polish them you have a few choices:
> 
> If you think they are smooth enough and don't have bumps you can lacquer them directly with the appropriate uv lacquer (dreve,egger)
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks friend for giving me nice information for polish my shell

 yes i try clear shell and it will yellowish if your light is not UV light like purple color , your clear shell will yellowish...

 yes my shell is thick but its ok cause few dirver i will put on this... do you have guideline how to use this one uv lacquer? i dont have idea please help

 thanks friend


----------



## ForceMajeure

rjcruiz25 said:


> Thanks friend for giving me nice information for polish my shell
> 
> yes i try clear shell and it will yellowish if your light is not UV light like purple color , your clear shell will yellowish...
> 
> ...


 
 It's not complicated, if you intend to use the lacquer, use a brush with a small amount and brush the shells. you can brush the all shell and then place it under uv light while rotating it slowly for a minute or so (depending the appropriate time required for curing by Dreve/Egger). You can also brush a small part of the shell and cure it then brush an other part and so on...


rjcruiz25 said:


> Hi friend
> Any one idea how to make face plate with white print design. like this http://prntscr.com/dir9p4
> 
> thanks


 
 You could print it on a transparent plastic sheets like those 
 https://www.amazon.com/Grafix-2-Inch-11-Inch-6-Pack-Clear/dp/B000XALNPI/ref=sr_1_1/151-9801826-2409400?ie=UTF8&qid=1481624444&sr=8-1&keywords=Transparent+Print+Paper
  
 or transparent Decals/stickers...place the print over the faceplate (make the faceplate half thick) and pour another layer of clear resin over it.
 You could also use a laser etching machine, paint the etched design with white acrylic white paint and pour another layer of resin over it.
  
  
  
  


jbr1971 said:


> I realized that I forgot to ask about film electrolytic capacitors in addition to the MELF resistors, as the Pristine uses them as well.


 
 This is snake oil territory...I doubt you will ear a difference but you can try...I don't remember hearing about a cap or a resistor failing in a CIEM (current is quite low anyway).It looks cool though nice big components have their appeal look-wise


----------



## bvmonie

sowright said:


> I've tried NiceFit with Krystalod with no success.  I've tried a handful of times, each attempt increasing the time in UV and the NiceFit would come out lumpy with no wall for the shells.  Then at about 1 minute under the uv, it would almost instantly cure all the way through.  Maybe I'm using the wrong UV lights??  I ordered a 12v 120 LED strip of 395-405nm leds that I stuck on the inside of a used packing tape roll.
> 
> Now I'm using Egger shell material instead and getting much better results.  This shell is after 12 seconds under UV.  Results in a stiff shell with a fairly thin wall.


 
  
  
 Did you use a 5m strip? What length did you use?


----------



## jbr1971

forcemajeure said:


> This is snake oil territory...I doubt you will ear a difference but you can try...I don't remember hearing about a cap or a resistor failing in a CIEM (current is quite low anyway).It looks cool though nice big components have their appeal look-wise


 
  
 I had a feeling a subject like that would be comparable to the talk about cables, etc. I am not worried about component failure, I am more curious about how more efficient components might affect the sound.
  
 I am almost ready to order drivers for my next set, maybe I will give the MELF/film pieces a try for something different.


----------



## ForceMajeure

Again nothing wrong with trying. also those resistors and caps are not that expensive...they have very good tolerances so that can help audio-wise.
 You should go all the way and use pure silver wire for soldering the components.
  
 btw that youtube vid have nothing to do with audio applications


----------



## bvmonie

Will these creases in the impression be filled with wax when I dip it? Or should I take another impression?


----------



## Trying2Learn

mikkelmmk93 said:


> That most certainly is a cross over.


How do crossovers work? Whats in(on) the board?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

bvmonie said:


> Will these creases in the impression be filled with wax when I dip it? Or should I take another impression?




You will need to redo your impressions.


----------



## mikkelmmk93

trying2learn said:


> How do crossovers work? Whats in(on) the board?


 
 I won't go into details of the photo given that I can't see the values of the components. But it is, in its basic form, very simple how a crossover works.
 First lets talk different types of crossovers.
 You have crossover that do nothing but provide a high or low pass function - ie. like the one for a subwoofer. It allows low frequency to pass but blocks high frequencies.
 Then theres the "splitter" which splits the audio into low end and high end frequencies.
 And if you'd want to use a squawker (mid tones) then you'd make a combination of the two into one - ie remove some low end and remove some high end, leaving the middle frequencies.
 How this works is also quite simple. They use either capacitors or inductors. 
 These components will exhibit a different ohmic resistance depending on the frequency. A capacitor will block DC, and have a high resistance for low frequencies, and show a very little resistance to high frequencies. The formula for how much resistance a capacitor exhibits is:
 ohm=1/(2*pi*freq*Farad). So for a capacitor with 500microfarad value and 10Hz it would be roughly 32ohm, and at 1000Hz it would be 0,32ohm - thus allowing high frequencies to pass but "blocks" low frequencies.
 For the other component, inductor, the formula is: ohm=2*pi*freq*Henry. So for a 0.5mH inductor and 10kHz it would show 31Ohm and at 100Hz it would show 0,31Ohm.
 Then you can use a resistor in series with your inductor or capacitor to further turn down signal if need may be.

 Sorry for my bad english, I hope it is understandable.
 I am by no means a professional, so there are probably some things that I forgot.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

mikkelmmk93 said:


> I won't go into details of the photo given that I can't see the values of the components. But it is, in its basic form, very simple how a crossover works.
> 
> First lets talk different types of crossovers.
> 
> ...




Just a reminder, CIEM's use RC crossovers and do not use inductors. Resistors for low pass filters and Capacitors for high pass filters.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Good Read about crossovers.


----------



## jbr1971

shilohsjustice said:


> Good Read about crossovers.


 
  
 I just skimmed it quick, but it looks like a good resource. Although, getting a grip on the order to read the pages took a minute this early in the morning


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Lol, I printed it and highlighted the topics that applied because it is difficult to navigate.


----------



## ForceMajeure

There are some companies that use inductors on some of their models like JH.
 But most use capacitors.


----------



## mikkelmmk93

shilohsjustice said:


> Just a reminder, CIEM's use RC crossovers and do not use inductors. Resistors for low pass filters and Capacitors for high pass filters.


 
 Why not use a coil?


----------



## sowright

bvmonie said:


> Did you use a 5m strip? What length did you use?


 
  
 Just a 1m strip.  I provide 12v power supply to it with my Rework Station.


----------



## bvmonie

sowright said:


> Just a 1m strip.  I provide 12v power supply to it with my Rework Station.


 
 I was going to do the same. Except use a pvc pipe that was wider to fit a turntable so the investment turns while curing. I dont see the need for a $30+ UV nail drying machine


----------



## sowright

bvmonie said:


> I was going to do the same. Except use a pvc pipe that was wider to fit a turntable so the investment turns while curing. I dont see the need for a $30+ UV nail drying machine


 
  
 With a setup like this, you really don't need a turntable...
  
 I set my investment on a mirror, then put the tape roll with LEDs around it.  Add a black cap over the investment, and UV is then hitting it from every direction needed.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Oh man, I must say I am digging the epoxy resin pigment much much better than the acrylic ink for colored shells!!!!!



Renders perfect transparency, this color is magenta. Below is a test shell with lion art work. Double test, one for the color and the other for the lion.


----------



## briancortez2112

shilohsjustice said:


> Oh man, I must say I am digging the epoxy resin pigment much much better than the acrylic ink for colored shells!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> Renders perfect transparency, this color is magenta. Below is a test shell with lion art work. Double test, one for the color and the other for the lion.


 
  
 Yes it does, i figured this out as well, the amber that i have is awesome!
 Great looking shells man! Love the lion


----------



## sanekn

Really nice work here you guys! 

Personnally i had no success with shells yet. Trying the nice-fit uv liquid coupled with bi component silicone investments and it just dont want to do it... tried quite several times with different timings and positions, wasted about 40€ worth of uv liquid and resulting shells are either too thick or thin but with holes... dammit.

Next step will be using the gelatine because it is much more transparent than the silicone so maybe ill have some luck with that.


----------



## jbr1971

shilohsjustice said:


> Oh man, I must say I am digging the epoxy resin pigment much much better than the acrylic ink for colored shells!!!!!
> 
> Renders perfect transparency, this color is magenta. Below is a test shell with lion art work. Double test, one for the color and the other for the lion.


 
  
 Wow, those turned out amazing. I am hoping to be able to get a nice clear shell like you do with my next set.


----------



## ForceMajeure

sanekn said:


> Really nice work here you guys!
> 
> Personnally i had no success with shells yet. Trying the nice-fit uv liquid coupled with bi component silicone investments and it just dont want to do it... tried quite several times with different timings and positions, wasted about 40€ worth of uv liquid and resulting shells are either too thick or thin but with holes... dammit.
> 
> Next step will be using the gelatine because it is much more transparent than the silicone so maybe ill have some luck with that.


 
 Why waist your time and money on things that doesn't work?
 Buy the right materials and be done with it.
  
 Don't use gelatine. Use this https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/Free-Shipping-VIA-TNT-Ear-Mold-Agar-Nice-fit-Brand/830007_32447558483.html?spm=2114.12010608.0.0.bDFrVK 
  
 it can also be found on taobao or any audiologist supplier in the US. You don't need 1kg of it, you can buy 200gr and it will be enough for all your work from now on (can be re-used).
  
 Heat it in a glass container inside a pot with boiling water. Once it reach 95 deg celsius it will melt completely, wait till it cools down to 53 deg celsius and pour it over your waxed impressions.
 Same goes for UV fotoplast...so far the recommended one are Egger and Dreve. They will give you the best results, clear transparent and consistent curing times.
  
 My 2 cents...


----------



## sanekn

forcemajeure said:


> Why waist your time and money on things that doesn't work?
> Buy the right materials and be done with it.
> 
> Don't use gelatine. Use this https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/Free-Shipping-VIA-TNT-Ear-Mold-Agar-Nice-fit-Brand/830007_32447558483.html?spm=2114.12010608.0.0.bDFrVK
> ...



Yeah you are right man, thanks for all of yours advices. At the begining I started with the youtube lesson of some german dude who made ciems with pavelka/silicone method and didnt had good results out of it but the silicone seemed to be nice duplicating material but unfortunately not transparent enough... so i bought some stuff from soundlink like impression form, some dentist wax, nice fit liquid and glycerine and started to play with it. I made maybe 20 messed up shells and just one of it was somewhat nice.

But yeah, i just ordered the agar duplicating material and will try to manage with it. If it dont work I will try to buy some egger/dreve... Both are german and Im in France so Ill try to buy from them directly (anyone tried already?)

Why not glycerine/gelatine tho? Guys here seemed to have some nice results with it here. (Out of curiosity)

Thank you.


----------



## Lightsword

sanekn said:


> Yeah you are right man, thanks for all of yours advices. At the begining I started with the youtube lesson of some german dude who made ciems with pavelka/silicone method and didnt had good results out of it but the silicone seemed to be nice duplicating material but unfortunately not transparent enough... so i bought some stuff from soundlink like impression form, some dentist wax, nice fit liquid and glycerine and started to play with it. I made maybe 20 messed up shells and just one of it was somewhat nice.
> 
> But yeah, i just ordered the agar duplicating material and will try to manage with it. If it dont work I will try to buy some egger/dreve... Both are german and Im in France so Ill try to buy from them directly (anyone tried already?)
> 
> ...


 
 Gelatine is very hit or miss and not as straightforward. I tried using gelatine a couple of times and both times failed miserably, They weren't anywhere near transparent, and it was quite fragile stuff. I never got a successful shell out of the gelatine material. I'm using Krystalloid now and had much better results. I'm using the nice fit and while I'm still struggling to get the thickness right, it is more clear and far more durable. One thing to watch for is to not overheat it. I accidentally overheated my first batch (To boiling) and it turned cloudy. I don't know how the Dreve Agar handles the heat, but its better to be safe than sorry.


----------



## sanekn

lightsword said:


> Gelatine is very hit or miss and not as straightforward. I tried using gelatine a couple of times and both times failed miserably, They weren't anywhere near transparent, and it was quite fragile stuff. I never got a successful shell out of the gelatine material. I'm using Krystalloid now and had much better results. I'm using the nice fit and while I'm still struggling to get the thickness right, it is more clear and far more durable. One thing to watch for is to not overheat it. I accidentally overheated my first batch (To boiling) and it turned cloudy. I don't know how the Dreve Agar handles the heat, but its better to be safe than sorry.



I've kinda made a hell lot of gelatin compound. 120g gelatine sheets, 350ml water and 40g of glycerine. Low heat. After that fridge. Resulting stuff is quite clear, VERY hard to tear (yeah, better than the silicone) I event bent my knife a little trying to cut some... But unfortunately its bubbly and ive not tried to do shells with it yet. Now i have it, i will try just for science sake 

And unfortunately where i live its very difficult to find stuff like krystalloid :/


----------



## Shilohsjustice

When I'm out of krystaloid I use Gelatin with great success, I make it using the formula I shared several pages back which results in perfectly clear gelatin with great strength. follow the process and it will work, I promise!


----------



## sanekn

shilohsjustice said:


> When I'm out of krystaloid I use Gelatin with great success, I make it using the formula I shared several pages back which results in perfectly clear gelatin with great strength. follow the process and it will work, I promise!



Yeah i pinned this page a month ago and use it now haha! Didnt had the powdered gelatin so instead of using 4oz of powdered i used 4oz of sheeted one, but beeded to stir this stuff hard and log anough to introduce hundreds of bubbles into the mix... yeah


----------



## jbr1971

I received a package from Mouser yesterday with the ED's/HODVTEC's/resistors/capacitors I ordered. 

Now to see if I can figure out the electronics theory behind it all to come up with a great sounding combination. 

Hopefully I still have enough fotoplast left for at least 1 more good set of shells.


----------



## sanekn

If there are some european guys, I wonder where you can buy some fotoplast/egger... ?


----------



## sanekn

jbr1971 said:


> I received a package from Mouser yesterday with the ED's/HODVTEC's/resistors/capacitors I ordered.
> 
> Now to see if I can figure out the electronics theory behind it all to come up with a great sounding combination.
> 
> Hopefully I still have enough fotoplast left for at least 1 more good set of shells.




Good sir, best of luck and patience to you and dont forget to post some pics when done


----------



## MuZo2

sanekn said:


> If there are some european guys, I wonder where you can buy some fotoplast/egger... ?



There is online shop in Germany, link is somewhere in last few pages, its dedicated to DIY ciem.


----------



## Xymordos

I finally found the switches I was looking for. They're made by Sonion:
  
 http://www.sonion.com/wp/products/hearing-instrument-components/user-interfaces/sw-96/
  
 Anyone knows where they can be bought though?


----------



## Lightsword

sowright said:


> Just a 1m strip.  I provide 12v power supply to it with my Rework Station.


 
 Where did you get that set of LED's? I've seen a few on amazon, but I'm curious. I'm thinking about switching from the nail lamp to something like this that's more purposeful for what I'm doing.


----------



## sowright

lightsword said:


> Where did you get that set of LED's? I've seen a few on amazon, but I'm curious. I'm thinking about switching from the nail lamp to something like this that's more purposeful for what I'm doing.




I got them on eBay. This was the title of the listing

1~20m UV Ultraviolet 395-405nm 3528 HQ 120LEDs/M 600leds LED Strip Light DC12V


----------



## ForceMajeure

xymordos said:


> I finally found the switches I was looking for. They're made by Sonion:
> 
> http://www.sonion.com/wp/products/hearing-instrument-components/user-interfaces/sw-96/
> 
> Anyone knows where they can be bought though?


 
 http://www.colsanmicro.com/
  
 look at the distributor list 
 http://www.sonion.com/wp/contact/how-to-buy/
 you can contact them in asia also
  
 There is a link in aliexpress, but the supplier is not active anymore...you could try to contact them 32usd for 10 pieces.


----------



## Xymordos

Thanks!
  
 Let me try contacting them. Hope they do sell in small quantities.


----------



## mikkelmmk93

sanekn said:


> If there are some european guys, I wonder where you can buy some fotoplast/egger... ?


 
 http://www.mcear.de/epages/78599304.sf/de_DE/?ObjectPath=/Shops/78599304/Products/8051 There you go.


----------



## MuZo2

mikkelmmk93 said:


> http://www.mcear.de/epages/78599304.sf/de_DE/?ObjectPath=/Shops/78599304/Products/8051 There you go.



I cancelled my order with him because he didn't ship for 12 days. I got PayPal refund.


----------



## stageears

Yeah I also ordered there but took 2 weeks to ship. I got a mail that he was hospitalized. So probably that was the reason. I did get the stuf however.


----------



## sanekn

stageears said:


> Yeah I also ordered there but took 2 weeks to ship. I got a mail that he was hospitalized. So probably that was the reason. I did get the stuf however.



Thank you man, is it good? Better than nice fit?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Hello all, I started a new universal project using the epoxy resin pigment to color the shells. Super pleased with the results. Shells are Fotoplast with purple epoxy resin pigment and I'm doing a white penrose design on the faceplates. 





I ordered drivers for this set, I'll post pics when it's done. I ran out of krystaloid and the molds for these were done with gelatin .


----------



## boomtube

Is there a starter kit with all the tools etc. you would need to make your own IEM?...or is it as you go, pick up what you need?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

boomtube said:


> Is there a starter kit with all the tools etc. you would need to make your own IEM?...or is it as you go, pick up what you need?




Luke over at vibrolabs has a starter kit, it's assembly related though no tools. Most on here have started from the ground up buying UV nail dryers and using UV topcoat starting out. I upgraded tools as I pushed the boundaries of the tools I had. I also made a few tools to save money.


----------



## ForceMajeure

shilohsjustice said:


> Hello all, I started a new universal project using the epoxy resin pigment to color the shells. Super pleased with the results. Shells are Fotoplast with purple epoxy resin pigment and I'm doing a white penrose design on the faceplates.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 http://www.theverge.com/ 
  
 Looks great.


----------



## mikkelmmk93

muzo2 said:


> I cancelled my order with him because he didn't ship for 12 days. I got PayPal refund.


 
  
  


stageears said:


> Yeah I also ordered there but took 2 weeks to ship. I got a mail that he was hospitalized. So probably that was the reason. I did get the stuf however.


 
 When was it that you ordered?
 Because my order took a long to ship as well, but it all got here though.


----------



## rjcruiz25

shilohsjustice said:


> Hello all, I started a new universal project using the epoxy resin pigment to color the shells. Super pleased with the results. Shells are Fotoplast with purple epoxy resin pigment and I'm doing a white penrose design on the faceplates.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 how did you do that print white?


----------



## mikkelmmk93

shilohsjustice said:


> Just a reminder, CIEM's use RC crossovers and do not use inductors. Resistors for low pass filters and Capacitors for high pass filters.


 
 How is a resistor used for low pass?
 I guess it would be in parallel with the given driver?


----------



## Pete64

Soo.. as i suck on German what is the difference between the Otoplastik and this Acryl? anyone?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

R





mikkelmmk93 said:


> How is a resistor used for low pass?
> 
> I guess it would be in parallel with the given driver?




Resistor in low pass would allow for low frequency to pass through, it would be in series to the driver. More complex crossovers may have a resistor in series then a capacitor parellel. If anyone can elaborate or correct me that would be great.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

rjcruiz25 said:


> how did you do that print white?




In my persuit of trying to replicate some designs out in the field I learned that a lot of companies use a laser engraver then fill with color. So I purchased a laser off eBay and have been attempting the same with some great results.


----------



## sanekn

shilohsjustice said:


> In my persuit of trying to replicate some designs out in the field I learned that a lot of companies use a laser engraver then fill with color. So I purchased a laser off eBay and have been attempting the same with some great results.


 
 Laser engraver here we go... My wife gonna kill me!


----------



## mikkelmmk93

shilohsjustice said:


> R
> Resistor in low pass would allow for low frequency to pass through, it would be in series to the driver. More complex crossovers may have a resistor in series then a capacitor parellel. If anyone can elaborate or correct me that would be great.


 
 Yes it would - but there is no reason a resistor would not allow high frequencies (in the audible spectrum) to pass through as well.
 Given the reactive impedance is given by XL=2*pi*f*H, the higher the frequency the higher the resistance of the driver - thus having say 10ohm's in series with a driver wouldn't matter much if the impedance of the driver at 10k is 80ohm, but at the same time it would tune the low end down - given that the impedance of a such driver at 30Hz might only be 15ohm.
 I am by no means an expert and thus I have a problem understanding how a resistor in series would act as a low pass. I might very well be wrong - I just need to understand why that I am wrong.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Im





mikkelmmk93 said:


> Yes it would - but there is no reason a resistor would not allow high frequencies (in the audible spectrum) to pass through as well.
> Given the reactive impedance is given by XL=2*pi*f*H, the higher the frequency the higher the resistance of the driver - thus having say 10ohm's in series with a driver wouldn't matter much if the impedance of the driver at 10k is 80ohm, but at the same time it would tune the low end down - given that the impedance of a such driver at 30Hz might only be 15ohm.
> 
> I am by no means an expert and thus I have a problem understanding how a resistor in series would act as a low pass. I might very well be wrong - I just need to understand why that I am wrong.




I'm not sure the scientific reason it works, it just does. I wish I had the technical breakdown for you. I know I like the way a 10ohm resistor in series with a CL-22955 tones down and cleans up the sound giving it in my opinion a better bass extension. 

Kind of like adding brown sugar to baked beans, mmm good!


----------



## boomtube

What's the best software for tuning drivers?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

So I love how the latest universals came out!!! 

I like the penrose for sure and will definitely use the design in the future. I think this by far maybe my best set yet, the purple is deep and the faceplate set just right.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

boomtube said:


> What's the best software for tuning drivers?




If you are referring to measuring software, ARTA is the way to go. It's freeware to try which is all you need to test frequency response.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

sanekn said:


> Laser engraver here we go... My wife gonna kill me!




Yeah it took my wife a minute to get over my laser investment, then I engraved one of her favorite travel coffee cups and she thought it was cool, lol. It is an entirely different hobby I'm now in that has me on other forums engraving glass and all sorts of things. Not as cool as engraving IEM's that are hand made, adds a cool flare. 

Problem is I want to upgrade parts, and the cycle continues.


----------



## ForceMajeure

shilohsjustice said:


> Yeah it took my wife a minute to get over my laser investment, then I engraved one of her favorite travel coffee cups and she thought it was cool, lol. It is an entirely different hobby I'm now in that has me on other forums engraving glass and all sorts of things. Not as cool as engraving IEM's that are hand made, adds a cool flare.
> 
> Problem is I want to upgrade parts, and the cycle continues.


 
 Give us the knowledge haha...
  
 I am curious if you read/found a good all in one solution 3dprinter/cnc/laser machine (changeable heads)
  
 I read about some machines...but so far it is a bit complicated to get good info on those solutions.
  
 I love your small universal shells btw...they look so small and comfortable.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

forcemajeure said:


> Give us the knowledge haha...
> 
> I am curious if you read/found a good all in one solution 3dprinter/cnc/laser machine (changeable heads)
> 
> ...




I ended going with the Chinese k40 40w laser, because everything on it can be upgraded from the head to adding air assist to the controller itself. It can be upgraded to be as good as a pro unit. 

I've been able to achieve some great designs on shells with it!!


----------



## Squirg

shilohsjustice said:


> Oh man, I must say I am digging the epoxy resin pigment much much better than the acrylic ink for colored shells!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> Renders perfect transparency, this color is magenta. Below is a test shell with lion art work. Double test, one for the color and the other for the lion.


 
 Where can I score some of that pigment?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

I b





squirg said:


> Where can I score some of that pigment?




I bought it off eBay, the company name is Resin Obsession. It is also available on Amazon. 

Resinobsession.com


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Here was a better pic of the purple, again the pigment is extremely consistent when mixing.


----------



## sanekn

Wow, great results you have here!

Guys, did anyone used the dreve glysol? I purchased it at the same time i purchased fotoplast (not delivered yet). Seems to be a must go product to remove the uv curing residue.

Btw im really happy i found the dreve distributor here in France, had the 500g bottle for 120€ Vat included haha. So damn cool. Purchased also two polish pastes to complete everything. Will see how it performs.

Yesterday i made a test with 120g gelatine/350ml water/40g glycerin investment. The stuff is great, works really better than the thick silicone, but nice fit uv resin with 2min curing time gave me a really thin shell with some sort of moonholes around it, uhh... will try again!


----------



## mikkelmmk93

sanekn said:


> Wow, great results you have here!
> 
> Guys, did anyone used the dreve glysol? I purchased it at the same time i purchased fotoplast (not delivered yet). Seems to be a must go product to remove the uv curing residue.
> 
> ...


 
 I've seen a lot of people complain about their resins - do you shake it thouroughly. Like REALLY well before curing it?
 Even my Dreve resin was bad before I shaked it.


----------



## mikkelmmk93

shilohsjustice said:


> Im
> I'm not sure the scientific reason it works, it just does. I wish I had the technical breakdown for you. I know I like the way a 10ohm resistor in series with a CL-22955 tones down and cleans up the sound giving it in my opinion a better bass extension.
> 
> Kind of like adding brown sugar to baked beans, mmm good!


 
 Hmm - Not that I doubt your results! I just can't understand.
 I will do some testing if and when I get a hold of a measuring setup - then we'll see 
 And if I find some "scientific" info on it I'll share that as well.
 I just really can't wrap my head around it 
 Anyone here who can help?


----------



## sanekn

mikkelmmk93 said:


> I've seen a lot of people complain about their resins - do you shake it thouroughly. Like REALLY well before curing it?
> 
> Even my Dreve resin was bad before I shaked it.




Actually not shaking this stuff at all! Thank you very much for the tip man. Will try it asap


----------



## Shilohsjustice

sanekn said:


> Actually not shaking this stuff at all! Thank you very much for the tip man. Will try it asap




I'm not sure about the Egger, but Dreve Fotoplast says shake well directly on the bottle. I usually will shake it well then let sit for a couple hours before using to let the bubble dissipate.


----------



## MuZo2

Egger is gel like consistency and small quantity comes in tube, so don't think it needs shaking.


----------



## sanekn

I'm using the nice-fit one, but will try to shake it well 1hr before use next time!


----------



## jbr1971

Hi all,

As I am getting prepared for my first foray into using resistors and capacitors for tuning, I wanted to double check something with regard to using measurement equipment. 

I do not have the most accurate setup out there, but it definitely helps with getting things in the right ballpark.

Previously I have wired the same configuration to both left and right sides, even though I only measured 1 side. My reasoning was that maybe only having the load on one side could affect impedances and measured output (I have no scientific backing for it, just my weird logic). Plus it was good practice for soldering. 

Am I completely off base with this reasoning? I would like to minimize the amount of soldering with such small components this time. 

Thanks, and happy holidays!


----------



## Furco

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all you creative audiophiles! You guys keep pushing the boundaries of what's possible and I find it both amazing and inspiring. I need to clean off my desk and contribute again.


----------



## ziixtreme

I am on my journey to make a CIEM. But I will make some universal shell 1st. I've successfully made a 3 driver combo with my own crossover setup and fit it into a Shure SE535 shell. I've used Sonion 33AJ007i/9 with TF10 tweeter (should be 2389 correct me if I am wrong). This combo tuned right will give out a very very nice sound. The only let down is the bass doesn't go low enough and the highs are a bit too electronic, not realistic enough. The mids on the 33AJ07i/9 are awesome. I will try another combo and see how it goes. The 33AJ007i/9 is a very very good dual driver.


----------



## sanekn

Hello guys,
  
 I have spent all day (vacation alone just today) to make investments out of the gelatine and it's a success, strong and stiff, bubble free if extra care added. It's the silohsjustice's recepy on the 315 page. The investment is so tight that the resin cures residue-free on it's exterior which is nice.
  
 At the other hand, damn Nice-Fit just dont want to cure properly, every time I get those holes in the interior part of the shell. Maybe my setup is not good enough I dont know, Will wait for my fotoplast now I guess... 
  
 Here some photos.
  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  
 Anyways, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all of you and your families, hope the 2017 will be more succesfull and I could make some professional grade stuff and quit my job  (half joke)


----------



## ForceMajeure

sanekn said:


> Hello guys,
> 
> I have spent all day (vacation alone just today) to make investments out of the gelatine and it's a success, strong and stiff, bubble free if extra care added. It's the silohsjustice's recepy on the 315 page. The investment is so tight that the resin cures residue-free on it's exterior which is nice.
> 
> ...


 
 Are you using the nail lamp horizontally with its mirror base for the primary cure?
  
 Using Egger resin I have great results doing the following for transparent shells: black cap covered investment cure for 1:15 min, empty excess resin, another cure for 30-60sec with investments upside down. then I fill the empty shells with glycerin and cure for another ~10min.
  
 During the whole process I use the UV lamp horizontally with its base (I removed the blue layer from that came with the base, now it's mirror like only) and a piece of foil to cover the opening.
  
 It's a trial and error thing every lamp and resin will have slightly different curing time. For my first trials I had the same shell "holes" as you, first curing time wasn't long enough... 
  
  
  


jbr1971 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> As I am getting prepared for my first foray into using resistors and capacitors for tuning, I wanted to double check something with regard to using measurement equipment.
> 
> ...


 
  
 If I understand correctly you ask if soldering only the left or the right piece without the other gives a different frequency response/ behavior than soldering the whole earphone (L and R) together?
  
 As far as I am aware no. you should regard the L and R as two different pieces, each one gets its own signal. 


ziixtreme said:


> I am on my journey to make a CIEM. But I will make some universal shell 1st. I've successfully made a 3 driver combo with my own crossover setup and fit it into a Shure SE535 shell. I've used Sonion 33AJ007i/9 with TF10 tweeter (should be 2389 correct me if I am wrong). This combo tuned right will give out a very very nice sound. The only let down is the bass doesn't go low enough and the highs are a bit too electronic, not realistic enough. The mids on the 33AJ07i/9 are awesome. I will try another combo and see how it goes. The 33AJ007i/9 is a very very good dual driver.


 
  
 Welcome, keep us informed for you next trials, I also like the 33AJ07i/9 for its mids. Have you soldered the 2389 half coil (center tap) or regular?


----------



## ziixtreme

I am using half coil centertap. What is the difference between using half coil and regular?


----------



## ForceMajeure

ziixtreme said:


> I am using half coil centertap. What is the difference between using half coil and regular?


 
  
 Half coil will give less resistance to the driver and because the impedance curve is not linear and impedance gets higher as frequency goes up on that driver, overall impedance will be lower thus more juice to the driver and upper frequencies. resulting in a few more decibels for the treble.
  
 You own the TF10?


----------



## ziixtreme

forcemajeure said:


> Half coil will give less resistance to the driver and because the impedance curve is not linear and impedance gets higher as frequency goes up on that driver, overall impedance will be lower thus more juice to the driver and upper frequencies. resulting in a few more decibels for the treble.
> 
> You own the TF10?




Yes I own the TF10. I had it reshell into the Shure SE535 with new Sonion 33AJ007i/9. One side of the original UE driver is gone. Another question, if I wire up the 33AJ007i/9 parrallel instead of series do I get improved bass response? Parrallel gives same amount of voltage to the drivers whereas series split voltage between the 2 drivers.


----------



## ForceMajeure

Theoretically yes, you should get better bass response.
  
 Why not use the original crossover for the TF10 though?


----------



## ziixtreme

forcemajeure said:


> Theoretically yes, you should get better bass response.
> 
> 
> Why not use the original crossover for the TF10 though?



Tune for better mids. TF10 mids are a bit recessed


----------



## ForceMajeure

If I am not mistaken the TF10 have a low pass filter of 20ohm and 3.3uf on the 33 driver and a 1.5uf on the half coil 2389 right?


----------



## ziixtreme

forcemajeure said:


> If I am not mistaken the TF10 have a low pass filter of 20ohm and 3.3uf on the 33 driver and a 1.5uf on the half coil 2389 right?




That is correct. And the 33 is wired up series. I changed the low pass 10ohm with 4.7uF better mids. I tried meddle with the 2389, but it seems like 1.5uF is the best high pass. The bass is lackluster on the lowest end. Well I think for BA that is expected. The 2389 performs very well on the highs, but it sounded a bit too metallic. I should give SWFK-31736 a try.


----------



## ForceMajeure

I don't think the original crossover is wired in series though.
 I don't have a TF10 to check it but I think the low pass filtered 33xx driver and the high passed filtered 2389 are wired in parallel. It might look in series when looking on the pcb but if I remember correctly the pcb have connections on both sides bypassing some elements, also capacitors are upside down on it... Again I am not 100% sure, try to wire it in parallel and see how it goes.
  
 One thing to remember is that if the low pass filter used is like the one I stated a few posts up, then the resistor is in series to the 33xx driver and the capacitor is in parallel to the same driver.
 All that need to be wired in parallel to the high pass filtered  2389 (half coil).


----------



## ziixtreme

forcemajeure said:


> I don't think the original crossover is wired in series though.
> I don't have a TF10 to check it but I think the low pass filtered 33xx driver and the high passed filtered 2389 are wired in parallel. It might look in series when looking on the pcb but if I remember correctly the pcb have connections on both sides bypassing some elements, also capacitors are upside down on it... Again I am not 100% sure, try to wire it in parallel and see how it goes.
> 
> One thing to remember is that if the low pass filter used is like the one I stated a few posts up, then the resistor is in series to the 33xx driver and the capacitor is in parallel to the same driver.
> All that need to be wired in parallel to the high pass filtered  2389 (half coil).




No, I mean the dual drivers of the 33aj in series. I should try wire that up parrallel. Parrallel I mean the low pass filter split to a X connection between the 33 driver


----------



## Shawn71

ziixtreme said:


> That is correct. And the 33 is wired up series. I changed the low pass 10ohm with 4.7uF better mids. I tried meddle with the 2389, but it seems like 1.5uF is the best high pass. The bass is lackluster on the lowest end. Well I think for BA that is expected. The 2389 performs very well on the highs, but it sounded a bit too metallic. I should give SWFK-31736 a try.




Have a noob question about TF10......so the mid/bass dual BA actually has the band pass for the mids and lpf for bass? Or its just a 2 way x-over?


----------



## ziixtreme

shawn71 said:


> Have a noob question about TF10......so the mid/bass dual BA actually has the band pass for the mids and lpf for bass? Or its just a 2 way x-over?



It is only the low pass. 20ohm series with the drivers, and 3.3uF parrallel to the drivers.
A 1.5uF cap is wired series to the 2389 as a high pass. Thus simple 2 way crossover


----------



## Shawn71

ziixtreme said:


> It is only the low pass. 20ohm series with the drivers, and 3.3uF parrallel to the drivers.
> A 1.5uF cap is wired series to the 2389 as a high pass. Thus simple 2 way crossover




Ok so the same low pass is fed into the both BAs corrct?....Im sorry I dont know the model #s of the BA.
So its basically a dual woofer BA not a mid/bass BA then......

All I wanted to know is that whether the dual BA handles only bass or mids and bass hence my question whether its a 3-way x-over.


----------



## ziixtreme

shawn71 said:


> Ok so the same low pass is fed into the both BAs corrct?....Im sorry I dont know the model #s of the BA.
> So its basically a dual woofer BA not a mid/bass BA then......
> 
> All I wanted to know is that whether the dual BA handles only bass or mids and bass hence my question whether its a 3-way x-over.




Basically the TF10 configuration is like this:


Note that the - from the first driver is connected to the + of second one. The Sonion 33AJ007i/9 is a dual bass/mid driver mesh together. So both side will be identical.


----------



## ziixtreme

forcemajeure said:


> I don't think the original crossover is wired in series though.
> I don't have a TF10 to check it but I think the low pass filtered 33xx driver and the high passed filtered 2389 are wired in parallel. It might look in series when looking on the pcb but if I remember correctly the pcb have connections on both sides bypassing some elements, also capacitors are upside down on it... Again I am not 100% sure, try to wire it in parallel and see how it goes.
> 
> One thing to remember is that if the low pass filter used is like the one I stated a few posts up, then the resistor is in series to the 33xx driver and the capacitor is in parallel to the same driver.
> All that need to be wired in parallel to the high pass filtered  2389 (half coil).




What I mean is that I wanna connect the 33AJ007i/9 this way. Maybe will bring out more juice from these


----------



## Shawn71

ziixtreme said:


> Basically the TF10 configuration is like this:
> 
> 
> Note that the - from the first driver is connected to the + of second one. The Sonion 33AJ007i/9 is a dual bass/mid driver mesh together. So both side will be identical.




Ok,so can we just use one for the low and the other for the mids by introducing appropriate filter to mids?making the setup a 3-way?...... Coz these dual BA already designed to handle both the low end to mids?


----------



## ziixtreme

shawn71 said:


> Ok,so can we just use one for the low and the other for the mids by introducing appropriate filter to mids?making the setup a 3-way?...... Coz these dual BA already designed to handle both the low end to mids?



You can try that setup but you need a band pass for one of it and a low pass for the other. Mind you both drivers shares a sound vent. Worth an experiment but I think the outcome won't be spectacular.

You basically do not need a 3 way coz these twin drivers handles midlow to midrange very well. You just cut the high frequency going into it to remove the mid distortion, there you will have one of the best sounding midlow to mid drivers. The only thing lackluster about these(basically all BA) is that you don't get the low rumble like dynamic does. If you really wanna make a 3 way setup, one of these with 2389 plus a dynamic for the subwoofer is very good already.


----------



## ForceMajeure

ziixtreme said:


> What I mean is that I wanna connect the 33AJ007i/9 this way. Maybe will bring out more juice from these


 
  
 You need to try it, not sure it will give you more bass oomph. It's like wiring 2 CI for bass, I got "contradictory" results; in parallel I got less lower bass output from them than wiring them in series.


----------



## ziixtreme

forcemajeure said:


> You need to try it, not sure it will give you more bass oomph. It's like wiring 2 CI for bass, I got "contradictory" results; in parallel I got less lower bass output from them than wiring them in series.


 
 This is a tough call, althou these drivers are relatively cheap...... Never mind, I will try and post the results.


----------



## ForceMajeure

I didn't mean you need to buy them 
  
 I just meant that when I played with 2 CI drivers in series and in parallel, I expected more bass output but it wasn't the case.


----------



## ziixtreme

Nvm, I have some to test it out.


----------



## 93EXCivic

Does anyone know a source for 2 pin CIEM jacks (not the connector)?


----------



## ziixtreme

93excivic said:


> Does anyone know a source for 2 pin CIEM jacks (not the connector)?



Taobao your best bet. They have everything


----------



## Shawn71

ziixtreme said:


> You can try that setup but you need a band pass for one of it and a low pass for the other. Mind you both drivers shares a sound vent. Worth an experiment but I think the outcome won't be spectacular.
> 
> You basically do not need a 3 way coz these twin drivers handles midlow to midrange very well. You just cut the high frequency going into it to remove the mid distortion, there you will have one of the best sounding midlow to mid drivers. The only thing lackluster about these(basically all BA) is that you don't get the low rumble like dynamic does. If you really wanna make a 3 way setup, one of these with 2389 plus a dynamic for the subwoofer is very good already.




Oh ok.....so what do you think,if we retire one BA from the dual and so will there be less prominent bass and touch more mids achievable due to just one BA for low/mids? And also this might attract a re-visit in the x-over design? Btw,appreciate your inputs!


----------



## ziixtreme

shawn71 said:


> Oh ok.....so what do you think,if we retire one BA from the dual and so will there be less prominent bass and touch more mids achievable due to just one BA for low/mids? And also this might attract a re-visit in the x-over design? Btw,appreciate your inputs!



No need to go through such hassle if you want a mid only driver, just make a band pass cut low and high. Good enough.


----------



## sbsmyth

Hey guys. I'm a long time lurker, first time poster. Finished up reading this entire thread which took over a month. I'm just getting into building my own CIEM's. Decided to do my best to get the right materials to start with to save the time and money of buying cheaper materials. I have creating some solid shells, but I do have a couple of question. 

I have the Krystalloid from lightning enterprises. I'm developing lots of small bubbles in my negatives and I'm not sure how I'm getting them. I chop the colloid up into small pieces and place it in a glass cup and heat in 10 second intervals in the microwave. I emailed Chris from lightning enterprises and he said bubbles form when the colloid is overheated. I'm not sure how I am overheating it when I'm heating in 10 second intervals and just barely heating it up enough for it to all become liquid! How are you guys heating your colloids? 

Also, what soldering irons/stations do you guys use to solder your drivers? Also, what temperature are you using when soldering? Im brand new to soldering, so I could use all the help I can get. Thanks guys!


----------



## ziixtreme

sbsmyth said:


> Hey guys. I'm a long time lurker, first time poster. Finished up reading this entire thread which took over a month. I'm just getting into building my own CIEM's. Decided to do my best to get the right materials to start with to save the time and money of buying cheaper materials. I have creating some solid shells, but I do have a couple of question.
> 
> I have the Krystalloid from lightning enterprises. I'm developing lots of small bubbles in my negatives and I'm not sure how I'm getting them. I chop the colloid up into small pieces and place it in a glass cup and heat in 10 second intervals in the microwave. I emailed Chris from lightning enterprises and he said bubbles form when the colloid is overheated. I'm not sure how I am overheating it when I'm heating in 10 second intervals and just barely heating it up enough for it to all become liquid! How are you guys heating your colloids?
> 
> Also, what soldering irons/stations do you guys use to solder your drivers? Also, what temperature are you using when soldering? Im brand new to soldering, so I could use all the help I can get. Thanks guys!




Dont use colloids. Use egger negative mould gelatin.


----------



## sbsmyth

ziixtreme said:


> Dont use colloids. Use egger negative mould gelatin.




Where can I get some??


----------



## jbr1971

sbsmyth said:


> Hey guys. I'm a long time lurker, first time poster. Finished up reading this entire thread which took over a month. I'm just getting into building my own CIEM's. Decided to do my best to get the right materials to start with to save the time and money of buying cheaper materials. I have creating some solid shells, but I do have a couple of question.
> 
> I have the Krystalloid from lightning enterprises. I'm developing lots of small bubbles in my negatives and I'm not sure how I'm getting them. I chop the colloid up into small pieces and place it in a glass cup and heat in 10 second intervals in the microwave. I emailed Chris from lightning enterprises and he said bubbles form when the colloid is overheated. I'm not sure how I am overheating it when I'm heating in 10 second intervals and just barely heating it up enough for it to all become liquid! How are you guys heating your colloids?
> 
> Also, what soldering irons/stations do you guys use to solder your drivers? Also, what temperature are you using when soldering? Im brand new to soldering, so I could use all the help I can get. Thanks guys!


 
  
 I just looked on the Lightning Enterprises website and am unable to find the krystalloid you refer to. Do you have a link for it?


----------



## sbsmyth

jbr1971 said:


> I just looked on the Lightning Enterprises website and am unable to find the krystalloid you refer to. Do you have a link for it?




I can't post a link because I have a brand new Headfi account. However, I contacted Christ at Lightning Enterprises and he said you can order it off their "Sister Website" which is fusionet.com. Hope this helps!


----------



## jbr1971

sbsmyth said:


> I can't post a link because I have a brand new Headfi account. However, I contacted Christ at Lightning Enterprises and he said you can order it off their "Sister Website" which is fusionet.com. Hope this helps!


 
  
 I found it. Hopefully you did not buy the 2 gallon pail  
  
 According to the MSDS, it looks like it should melt at approximately 200F.
  
 I use Clear Ballistics gel, which I believe is similar (just a higher melting point), and once I pour the gel over my impressions in drink glasses, I put them in the oven for a couple of hours to keep the gel from setting and let the bubbles rise out.
  
 After 2 hours I turn the heat off and let everything cool/set (there may still be some bubbles visible, but as it cools they should disappear). Once the gel cools/sets I have clear molds.
  
 You might want to try heating your oven to 200F and testing if it works the same with your setup.


----------



## sbsmyth

jbr1971 said:


> I found it. Hopefully you did not buy the 2 gallon pail
> 
> According to the MSDS, it looks like it should melt at approximately 200F.
> 
> ...




I just bought 1 lb to test and see if I like it! I'll definitely try this! Thanks!


----------



## Bad Username

sbsmyth said:


> Hey guys. I'm a long time lurker, first time poster. Finished up reading this entire thread which took over a month. I'm just getting into building my own CIEM's. Decided to do my best to get the right materials to start with to save the time and money of buying cheaper materials. I have creating some solid shells, but I do have a couple of question.
> 
> I have the Krystalloid from lightning enterprises. I'm developing lots of small bubbles in my negatives and I'm not sure how I'm getting them. I chop the colloid up into small pieces and place it in a glass cup and heat in 10 second intervals in the microwave. I emailed Chris from lightning enterprises and he said bubbles form when the colloid is overheated. I'm not sure how I am overheating it when I'm heating in 10 second intervals and just barely heating it up enough for it to all become liquid! How are you guys heating your colloids?
> 
> Also, what soldering irons/stations do you guys use to solder your drivers? Also, what temperature are you using when soldering? Im brand new to soldering, so I could use all the help I can get. Thanks guys!


 
 Don't use the microwave. It can't heat evenly and you may be overheating parts of it.
  
 Put the krystalloid pieces in a pot, and suspend the pot into another one filled with water. And heat the water to the melting point of the krystalloid, monitor the temp with a thermometer.
  
  
  
 For soldering I use a temp controlled station with WBT silver solder which melts at 180-200C.


----------



## ziixtreme

sbsmyth said:


> Where can I get some??




Taobao is your best bet
http://m.intl.taobao.com/detail/detail.html?spm=a21ct.8237742.0.0&id=524836764289


----------



## sbsmyth

Hey guys, playing with an idea for faceplates. Can't wait till I can post pics and show you! 

What kind of Glycerin are you guys using? There's many different kinds. Are you using vegetable glycerin? Or 100% glycerin? I can't seem to find it anywhere. I've tried Walmart, Walgreens, CVS, and Economy Pharmacy. Can't find it! Thanks.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

sbsmyth said:


> Hey guys, playing with an idea for faceplates. Can't wait till I can post pics and show you!
> 
> What kind of Glycerin are you guys using? There's many different kinds. Are you using vegetable glycerin? Or 100% glycerin? I can't seem to find it anywhere. I've tried Walmart, Walgreens, CVS, and Economy Pharmacy. Can't find it! Thanks.




I use the CVS brand, it's usually with the moisturizers and easily overlooked. Here is a pic of what the bottle looks like from CVS. 



I've also ordered off Amazon as well.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Happy New Year Everyone, I spent all day getting the "Lab" cleaned up and re-arranged. My New Years Resolution is to keep it clean for every build. I found 2 drivers and 3 dampers in the process, lol. 



Also cleaned out my material cupboard ! Shelf 1 is all things shells, shelf 2 is all things cables, shelf 3 is tools, heat shrink, sanding, colorants, shelf 4 is faceplate woods and miscellaneous stuff that wouldn't fit on shelf 1-3.


----------



## ForceMajeure

Nothing better than a clean and organized place to start working.
  
 Geeking over your cabinet, I can see a few nice things in there, also your reflection taking the pic on those safety glasses 
  
 BTW my dremel tool just died on me so no work for me.


----------



## ziixtreme

forcemajeure said:


> Nothing better than a clean and organized place to start working.
> 
> 
> Geeking over your cabinet, I can see a few nice things in there, also your reflection taking the pic on those safety glasses
> ...




Trust me, this works.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Technician-Saeshin-204-Handpiece-Polishing/dp/B00E5SQB2O


----------



## ForceMajeure

Guys, I want to bring to your attention that there is an international giveaway going on for the new UE18+ only 2 days left
  
 https://wn.nr/EktP7Q
  
 PS: If you use this link I get one extra entry you get 4. If you don't want to use this reference link just go directly to the page contest


----------



## sbsmyth

Hey guys! Been working on some faceplate ideas on some hearing protection while I gather all my supplies for CIEM's. Can you guess what faceplate material these are? Guitar picks! I used Fotoplast to make them thicker and I used dreve Lack 3 to attach them. What do y'all think? My shells still don't come out perfect because my negatives haven't been that great. I think I'm overheating my colloid because I always have 100000 bubbles and they get cloudy. Any tips? I'm gonna try Shilohsjustice's method with the gelatin. 



Also, would a 5-40 watt weller WLC100 soldering station with a small tip be a good starting station for soldering armatures? Thanks guys, have a happy new year!


----------



## jbr1971

sbsmyth said:


> Hey guys! Been working on some faceplate ideas on some hearing protection while I gather all my supplies for CIEM's. Can you guess what faceplate material these are? Guitar picks! I used Fotoplast to make them thicker and I used dreve Lack 3 to attach them. What do y'all think? My shells still don't come out perfect because my negatives haven't been that great. I think I'm overheating my colloid because I always have 100000 bubbles and they get cloudy. Any tips? I'm gonna try Shilohsjustice's method with the gelatin.
> 
> Also, would a 5-40 watt weller WLC100 soldering station with a small tip be a good starting station for soldering armatures? Thanks guys, have a happy new year!


 
  
 Great idea with the guitar picks. Bass guitar picks are thicker if I remember right. I will have to stop by the music store to see what they have.
  
 I have had luck "fixing" shells because of bubbles in my mold by painting a thin layer of Fotoplast in trouble spots, then re-curing. Depending on what issues you have with your shells that may help. However, I am going to try re-doing my molds to hopefully skip the painting step with the next set.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Hey all, I made a lint trap for my arbor. The wife was sick of all the dust covering the garage and the strings from my wheels while buffing shells. Here is how it turned out! All in the name of DIY CIEM's.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Here is another view:


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Hello all, I wanted to share my first build of the year. I redesigned my universals to be smaller and more comfortable, also designed the tip of the shell to lock with the silicone tips. Makes for a better seal and prevents the tip from pulling off from sweat. 







This is also the first pair I've done with snake wood, looks incredible. Super pleased with how they turned out considering how hard the snake wood was to work with.. Hardest material I've worked with to date.


----------



## wjm123

My first post here and after reading all the useful information from here, I've been trying my hands on reshelling my SE215 dynamic drivers, and for the life of me, I've no idea how did I end up breaking the drivers. There's no sound coming from them anymore.

 I initially had them working in the shell I've made but after realising that there was a significant lack of bass in the drivers, I had to open the shell up again to check the attachment of the tubing and stuff. One of the drivers died while i was simply using a pliers to nudge it around in the shell, I just used the pliers to grab it by its circumference of the drivers and when i plugged the cable back in to test it. There was no sound anymore!
  
 I've checked the cable connections and stuff and all seems to be soldered just fine but there is still no sound coming from the drivers. Could I have broken the drivers just by using the pliers to grab it?


----------



## ziixtreme

ziixtreme said:


> What I mean is that I wanna connect the 33AJ007i/9 this way. Maybe will bring out more juice from these





> Ok, tried this configuration. It doesn't work, the woofer lost it's low end volume and there is distortion when you crank up the volume, like overboosting a set of cheap speakers. Gonna go back to wiring the dual drivers up series.


----------



## ziixtreme

sbsmyth said:


> Hey guys! Been working on some faceplate ideas on some hearing protection while I gather all my supplies for CIEM's. Can you guess what faceplate material these are? Guitar picks! I used Fotoplast to make them thicker and I used dreve Lack 3 to attach them. What do y'all think? My shells still don't come out perfect because my negatives haven't been that great. I think I'm overheating my colloid because I always have 100000 bubbles and they get cloudy. Any tips? I'm gonna try Shilohsjustice's method with the gelatin.
> 
> 
> 
> Also, would a 5-40 watt weller WLC100 soldering station with a small tip be a good starting station for soldering armatures? Thanks guys, have a happy new year


 
 I found that using a tip which is not too big nor small, just enough to held some tin on it would be the best soldering solution. You don't want your iron to stay too long on the drivers as it will make some catastrophic destruction to it.


----------



## Chann30017

My Project
 CIEM
 No.1 CI-22955 + BK-28507 + TWFK-30017 4 Driver
 or
 No.2 HODVTEC-31618 + TWFK-30017 4 Driver
 or
 No.3 CI-22955 + CI-22955 + TWFK-30017 4 Driver
  
 I Need someone help me design crossover ^_^
 THX


----------



## sbsmyth

Hey guys! I'm starting my first CIEM build and went with GK's. I know how to wire them up to a 2 pin connector because of Vibrolabs video on YouTube. But a lot of people on here seem partial to MMCX and it has my intrigued. Does anybody have a diagram showing how to wire up a GK or something similar to a MMCX connector? Thanks!


----------



## ziixtreme

sbsmyth said:


> Hey guys! I'm starting my first CIEM build and went with GK's. I know how to wire them up to a 2 pin connector because of Vibrolabs video on YouTube. But a lot of people on here seem partial to MMCX and it has my intrigued. Does anybody have a diagram showing how to wire up a GK or something similar to a MMCX connector? Thanks!


 

 Just wire the positive and negative terminal on the crossover board under the belly of the CI.
  
 ****note that the center pin of the MMCX is the positive and both of the sides are negative.


----------



## sbsmyth

Hey HeadFiers. What are the pros and cons of creating one sound tube instead of 2 with a GK? If you make one sound tube, what do you use? Heat shrink tubing? What's that process like?

Also what size tubing are you using and where do you get it? I have a large stock of #13 medium and #16 thin. Planning on using the small tubing as a bushing for the the larger to connect to the snout of the armature. Thanks for the help!


----------



## Shilohsjustice

sbsmyth said:


> Hey HeadFiers. What are the pros and cons of creating one sound tube instead of 2 with a GK? If you make one sound tube, what do you use? Heat shrink tubing? What's that process like?
> 
> Also what size tubing are you using and where do you get it? I have a large stock of #13 medium and #16 thin. Planning on using the small tubing as a bushing for the the larger to connect to the snout of the armature. Thanks for the help!




I have done single sound tube when making universals with a gray sound damper. Pros would be ease of construction, only 1 sound port at the end of you IEM. I use #13 tubing and it stretches just enough to cover both, another trick is to us tweezers inserted in the end of the tubing heat with a lighter carefully and stretch a bit. I've also done separate tubing using red damper for the CI driver and green damper on the TWFK driver.


----------



## sanekn

Guys, those who have a laser, what wattage is your laser? 'ive bought a cheap little one 1w laser engraver but it dont etch the acryl at all...
  
 Thank you in advance!


----------



## sanekn

sbsmyth said:


> Hey HeadFiers. What are the pros and cons of creating one sound tube instead of 2 with a GK? If you make one sound tube, what do you use? Heat shrink tubing? What's that process like?
> 
> Also what size tubing are you using and where do you get it? I have a large stock of #13 medium and #16 thin. Planning on using the small tubing as a bushing for the the larger to connect to the snout of the armature. Thanks for the help!



Hey, ive made mine with only one tube because small ear canal... sound is quite nice but never compared. Tube was 3mm ext 2mm int i think and i managed juste stretch it by hands to put on both outputs at once. Will make one pair for a pal with two tubes this time.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

sanekn said:


> Guys, those who have a laser, what wattage is your laser? 'ive bought a cheap little one 1w laser engraver but it dont etch the acryl at all...
> 
> Thank you in advance!




I had the same issue with the 1w, then I purchased a 40w k20 laser which is great.


----------



## Squirg

sbsmyth said:


> Hey HeadFiers. What are the pros and cons of creating one sound tube instead of 2 with a GK? If you make one sound tube, what do you use? Heat shrink tubing? What's that process like?
> 
> Also what size tubing are you using and where do you get it? I have a large stock of #13 medium and #16 thin. Planning on using the small tubing as a bushing for the the larger to connect to the snout of the armature. Thanks for the help!


 
 Go dual tubes if you can.  I think it makes for better overall sound.  Cant remember the exact size tubing I use but if the smaller tube fits snuggly onto a sound port and creates a seal inside the big tubing, you should be good to go!  And your right on the money with the "bushing".  For the small driver, take the small tubing and jam it into the larger one just far enough to cover the sound port and cut it off at the end.  I prefer to use Fotoplast to connect tubes and drivers.  I use a small fingernail paintbrush.  Super glue works too.  Use the #16 for the "woofer".  It will work as a Low pass.  However, if your using dampers, you have to splice it in with the 13.  Sorry I can't post picks now, they tell a better story.
  
 If you use one tube, take a pair of tweezers and jam them in the end of the big tubing and heat it up till it starts to spread open.  Took me a couple tries to not melt/tear it.
  
 Good Luck!!!


----------



## JorgePantalones

FWIW, 
  
*Tubing Size    Inside/Outside Diam*
#12                   2.16/3.18 mm
#13 standard    1.93/2.95 mm        <—-Hearing aid standard
#13 medium     1.93/3.10 mm
#13 thick          1.93/3.30 mm
#14                   1.68/2.95 mm
#15                   1.50/2.95 mm
Thin tube          0.90/1.40 mm


----------



## ForceMajeure

I know not many use them but knowles have smaller diameter dampers, It might be a good solution for smaller inner diameter tubing.


----------



## Squirg

jorgepantalones said:


> FWIW,
> 
> *Tubing Size    Inside/Outside Diam*
> #12                   2.16/3.18 mm
> ...


 
 Good info!  Thanks J.Pants!


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Hello all, here is a sweet little universal set I finished up tonight. Yellow shells, rosewood faceplate, GQ driver, sounds fantastic and I love the smaller design for fit!!! It's a fun sounding little two driver!!!!

I may try to sell this set on eBay, any suggestions how much realistically I should list them for??


----------



## sanekn

Hello Guys, i've just received my fotoplast and will be trying to do something with it today. I need some luck and patience I guess haha. Looking forward to post some good stuff later on 
  
 And what an awesome work you're doing every time Shilohsjustice


----------



## Squirg

shilohsjustice said:


> Hello all, here is a sweet little universal set I finished up tonight. Yellow shells, rosewood faceplate, GQ driver, sounds fantastic and I love the smaller design for fit!!! It's a fun sounding little two driver!!!!
> 
> I may try to sell this set on eBay, any suggestions how much realistically I should list them for??


 
 Looks awesome, Shiloh!  What kind of cable are going to include?  I would think if you put it in a nice case with accessories you could easily get $250.  Right?  How much do you have in them?


----------



## sbsmyth

Hey guys! Picked this stuff up at lowes. Think this would work for soldering armatures? Or should I go with something else?


----------



## sbsmyth

squirg said:


> Go dual tubes if you can.  I think it makes for better overall sound.  Cant remember the exact size tubing I use but if the smaller tube fits snuggly onto a sound port and creates a seal inside the big tubing, you should be good to go!  And your right on the money with the "bushing".  For the small driver, take the small tubing and jam it into the larger one just far enough to cover the sound port and cut it off at the end.  I prefer to use Fotoplast to connect tubes and drivers.  I use a small fingernail paintbrush.  Super glue works too.  Use the #16 for the "woofer".  It will work as a Low pass.  However, if your using dampers, you have to splice it in with the 13.  Sorry I can't post picks now, they tell a better story.
> 
> If you use one tube, take a pair of tweezers and jam them in the end of the big tubing and heat it up till it starts to spread open.  Took me a couple tries to not melt/tear it.
> 
> Good Luck!!!




Thanks man! Will definitely give your method a shot!


----------



## sbsmyth

shilohsjustice said:


> Hello all, here is a sweet little universal set I finished up tonight. Yellow shells, rosewood faceplate, GQ driver, sounds fantastic and I love the smaller design for fit!!! It's a fun sounding little two driver!!!!
> 
> I may try to sell this set on eBay, any suggestions how much realistically I should list them for??




Those look incredible Shiloh! I wouldn't sell them for a penny less than $200 but I would ask at least $250 for sure.


----------



## MuZo2

sbsmyth said:


> Those look incredible Shiloh! I wouldn't sell them for a penny less than $200 but I would ask at least $250 for sure.



They are nice looking iem but without whole set of tips, cables & packaging you can't ask for such price. Unless you go pro DIY you can't make money or profit. Its even hard to get material cost back.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

squirg said:


> Looks awesome, Shiloh!  What kind of cable are going to include?  I would think if you put it in a nice case with accessories you could easily get $250.  Right?  How much do you have in them?




Drivers GQ - $62 for the pair
MMCX Female Connector - $0.45
eStron wire (1) 10mm Red and (1) 10mm Green - $0.18
Fotoplast less than 1.2ml - $0.32
Faceplate - approx $.02
Tips - $0.85
Motion Cable 62" -$17
Hard Case - $11

Total material invested to make complete package - $91.82

I would include:
Crystal Motion Cable 
Tips - S L XL
Hard Case



if I sold them for $220 that would be a nice little $128.18 profit. It is realistic to profit off DIY!!


----------



## sbsmyth

I'm about to place an order from Plastics1 for some cables and connectors. Has anyone used their mmcx connectors before? I'm new to this, but I haven't seen any with just 1 terminal coming off. Where's the positive and negative? Where do you guys get your mmcx connectors?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

sbsmyth said:


> I'm about to place an order from Plastics1 for some cables and connectors. Has anyone used their mmcx connectors before? I'm new to this, but I haven't seen any with just 1 terminal coming off. Where's the positive and negative? Where do you guys get your mmcx connectors?




I have purchased cables from them, it was $170 for 10 cables. I still have 7 left. 

MMCX - center is always positive, so the post protruding out is positive. Negative can go on any of the corners/casing.


----------



## Lightsword

sbsmyth said:


> Hey guys! Picked this stuff up at lowes. Think this would work for soldering armatures? Or should I go with something else?




I haven't done much soldering so take my advice with a grain of salt. From what I've read, the best solder, especially for electronics is 63/37 tin/lead solder. As long as you wash your hands after using it you should be fine. That ratio of lead to tin has the lowest melting point, and the quickest hardening time. Both of these things go make soldering a lot easier. What iron do you have? The solder you bought is a lead free solder and it has a fair bit higher melting point. It might work, but it won't be the easiest to use. Hopefully someone more experienced can add their own two cents as well. I hope this helps!


----------



## MuZo2

shilohsjustice said:


> Drivers GQ - $62 for the pair
> MMCX Female Connector - $0.45
> eStron wire (1) 10mm Red and (1) 10mm Green - $0.18
> Fotoplast less than 1.2ml - $0.32
> ...



That looks like a good deal. But realistically the profit is less, you should include your time & inventory cost. 220 is nice deal, hope you can compete with Chinese DIY guys.


----------



## ForceMajeure

del


----------



## sanekn

Yeah and here is also the taxes if you must to pay if you have an enterprise and stuff. Need to have attention on this question to not sell too much of this and have a control or something  but good luck with this, hope it will work out well as those are some damn gorgeous iems!


----------



## sanekn

Ok im thinking about changing my uv curing setup. I tried to do it in the normal horizontal position with the uv nail drier, then vertically like some japanese dude from youtube did. Even with 6min og curing time in both cases it gives me some flobby halfshells... will try maybe to put the drier upside down with some plexi plate and position the investment on it. Meanwhile i ordered a uv led strip from ali to eventually make the tube curing design i saw somewhere here... damn im think im not that good with this stuff as i managed to make better shells with pavelka rather than with fotoplast.


----------



## jbr1971

sanekn said:


> Ok im thinking about changing my uv curing setup. I tried to do it in the normal horizontal position with the uv nail drier, then vertically like some japanese dude from youtube did. Even with 6min og curing time in both cases it gives me some flobby halfshells... will try maybe to put the drier upside down with some plexi plate and position the investment on it. Meanwhile i ordered a uv led strip from ali to eventually make the tube curing design i saw somewhere here... damn im think im not that good with this stuff as i managed to make better shells with pavelka rather than with fotoplast.


 
  
 For clarification, you are curing Fotoplast for 6 minutes and you are not getting a full cure?
  
 I have a uv nail dryer that I use to cure Fotoplast, and I get 1.5-2mm thick shells in 45-60 seconds. In 2-3 minutes I get a solid piece of acrylic. I am using the dryer in its normal horizontal position, placed on top of a mirror (to help even the dispersal of light top to bottom and around), and place a small metal piece over top of the mold so the open part of the mold at the top does not harden.
  
 How big/thick is your mold? Depending on the thickness it may not be getting enough light to cure it in a timely manner. Do you have pictures?


----------



## tolin

How good is the GK driver? Is there any iem using this driver?


----------



## sanekn

jbr1971 said:


> For clarification, you are curing Fotoplast for 6 minutes and you are not getting a full cure?
> 
> I have a uv nail dryer that I use to cure Fotoplast, and I get 1.5-2mm thick shells in 45-60 seconds. In 2-3 minutes I get a solid piece of acrylic. I am using the dryer in its normal horizontal position, placed on top of a mirror (to help even the dispersal of light top to bottom and around), and place a small metal piece over top of the mold so the open part of the mold at the top does not harden.
> 
> How big/thick is your mold? Depending on the thickness it may not be getting enough light to cure it in a timely manner. Do you have pictures?


 
 Hello,
  
 Thank you four your input,
  
 I have standard molds from soundlink, with 5cm diameter. For the investment I did the gelatine recepy from Shiloh (still waiting for my nice fit agar from soundlink...), in result I had a stiff resistant investment with a strong yellow tint. When I try to dry it the first time I put an opaque plate on the investment like you said.
  
 I guess it might be the mirror issue, but shouldnt I in that case use the turning plate? Will definetely try it out.
  
 Here some old pics
  
  


tolin said:


> How good is the GK driver? Is there any iem using this driver?


 
 I using it in my only pair of successful ciems right now and prefer it to my AKG k240s, definetely not the analytic type of sound in my opinion but very pleasant with strong but not overwhelming bass and nice high spectrum extention. Like the soundstage, quite wide in my opinion, separation seems good. I'm not an audiophile tho, just someone who appreciate a good detail in music


----------



## mattmatt

Guys, do you get watery investments when using gelatin? Does watery investment give issues with curing after wiping it dry?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

sanekn said:


> Hello,
> 
> Thank you four your input,
> 
> ...




 In the set up in your picture you have way too much UV light escaping and not enough direct exposure. And if you lay your nail dryer down the correct way and put foil underneath it as a reflective surface and then folded up over the open and you do not need to rotate your investments in a circle. 

 So basically put a piece of foil down put your investment on there put your investments UV blocker on top lay nail dryer down over top of it fold the foil up and you should be able to get really great results with that type a UV light in 2 to 3 minutes. 

Here is how I used the nail dryer before getting the Dreve unit. I would leave extra foil coming out from the bottom and fold it to cover the openeing of the nail dryer. Your investments look great.


----------



## jbr1971

shilohsjustice said:


> In the set up in your picture you have way too much UV light escaping and not enough direct exposure. And if you lay your nail dryer down the correct way and put foil underneath it as a reflective surface and then folded up over the open and you do not need to rotate your investments in a circle.
> 
> So basically put a piece of foil down put your investment on there put your investments UV blocker on top lay nail dryer down over top of it fold the foil up and you should be able to get really great results with that type a UV light in 2 to 3 minutes.
> 
> Here is how I used the nail dryer before getting the Dreve unit. I would leave extra foil coming out from the bottom and fold it to cover the openeing of the nail dryer. Your investments look great.


 
  
 For consistency sake, in addition to the mirrored bottom, I cover the front opening with a reflective piece as well. I do not know if it makes a difference, I just figured better to be thorough than not.


----------



## sanekn

Thank you guys, I will definetely do this while waiting the led strip. I thought it might be a very nice consistent little drying chamber like I saw in some post few pages before. Purchased the 1m of leds already in kit with 12v power. This + 100mm PVC pipe + rotating mirrored bottom hope would make a difference.
  
 Today I tried to trim my investment to make it a little smaller and put a little mirror under while curing. 2 minutes to be sure, aaaand nothing like always. I guess I'll wait for my agar and led strip to update my "technique" haha.
  
 Anyways, thank you kind fellas for your input and help, really appreciate this!


----------



## dustdevil

mattmatt said:


> Guys, do you get watery investments when using gelatin? Does watery investment give issues with curing after wiping it dry?


 
 I have only tried using water-based agar investments and it did get kind of watery(may be improved using different recipe?), if you leave the water in there your shell will end up missing that portion where the water stays, haven't tried wiping it since I wanted to avoid getting dust in the investment.


----------



## sbsmyth

Does anybody have any tips for re-soldering armstures? Is there anything you need to do to re-prep the pads??


----------



## Squirg

sbsmyth said:


> Does anybody have any tips for re-soldering armstures? Is there anything you need to do to re-prep the pads??


 
 Just make sure they are clean using alcohol.  Some people use flux, but I have not been lately and havnt killed a driver in a while.  I just make sure the wire in tinned thouroughly and that the solder tip is clean and has a coating of solder on it.  Go easy on the solder though, you really shouldnt have to use extra.   Go quick!


----------



## Squirg

Has anyone out there tried a Dental hand-held curing wand for curing fotoplast?  There are quite a few on Ebay and I was thinking about grabbing one for small shell fixes, Laquer, etc.  Most don't have good descriptions and I know the light needs to be around 365-395nm.  It looks like most of the units that Dentists use are higher, like 450+.  
  
 If anyone has any experience with these, I would sure appreciate it.
  
 Cheers!


----------



## Squirg

Also, what is the difference between Fotoplast S/IO and S/Hard?  I have been using S/IO but it is out of stock and S/Hard is available...
  
 Thanks again


----------



## ForceMajeure

squirg said:


> Also, what is the difference between Fotoplast S/IO and S/Hard?  I have been using S/IO but it is out of stock and S/Hard is available...
> 
> Thanks again


 
 As far as I know, the S/IO gives shells with consistent thin walls with better resistance to impact in comparison to the Hard.
  
 The Hard is practically the same though. 
  
 https://www.oaktreeproducts.com/dreve-fotoplast-s-io-shell-material-500g-red-4823
  
 that's what they say for the S/IO, "

0.5-1.2 mm can be regulated by polymerization time        
Identical wall thickness, even if a larger quantity is produced, especially for ITE hearing systems        "


----------



## drumkendrum

Have most of you guys learned just hands on or have you gone to school/classes/resources to learn about the wiring and internals as far as measuring the sound and what not? I'm looking for some great sources i.e. Books or should I take some kinda class at a local JR college to get a better grip on the technical side of IEM. Any info or help would be much appreciated! I'm a super newb and have gotten into this the past two years. Thanks so much fellas


----------



## Bad Username

drumkendrum said:


> Have most of you guys learned just hands on or have you gone to school/classes/resources to learn about the wiring and internals as far as measuring the sound and what not? I'm looking for some great sources i.e. Books or should I take some kinda class at a local JR college to get a better grip on the technical side of IEM. Any info or help would be much appreciated! I'm a super newb and have gotten into this the past two years. Thanks so much fellas




There won't be an iem related course. But Knowles and sonion both have papers available online regarding iem design. This thread is also a good source of information. Experience in designing speaker crossover (there are many books on that) or active crossover may help. But speaker building as a hobby deals with many of the same things. Driver wiring, phase shift, crossovers, frequency response etc. I'd say the internet is still your best source for information on this.


----------



## drumkendrum

bad username said:


> There won't be an iem related course. But Knowles and sonion both have papers available online regarding iem design. This thread is also a good source of information. Experience in designing speaker crossover (there are many books on that) or active crossover may help. But speaker building as a hobby deals with many of the same things. Driver wiring, phase shift, crossovers, frequency response etc. I'd say the internet is still your best source for information on this.




Would you happen to know any good books ?


----------



## sanekn

Guys, I just had a message from aliexpress said that my agar were stucked at customs and sent back to seller... So I decided to buy the Fotogel investment material (this hobby is ruining me haha). Is anyone tried this expensive stuff? It's only aviable in 6kg and cost 120€ without shipping...


----------



## ForceMajeure

Why did it got stuck at customs? How do you know if the Fotogel will not get stuck also?
 6Kg is too much money and qty haha.
  
 The one you bought was from soundlink? What shipping service did they use?


----------



## sanekn

dont know really why... It was soundlink yes, never got problems with them tho, the shipping was standard ali shipping, cost me 30€.
Dreve fotogel will not stuck because i know guys who sells audiologist stuff in france, so near me  but damn that stuff is expensive as hell!


----------



## ForceMajeure

sanekn said:


> dont know really why... It was soundlink yes, never got problems with them tho, the shipping was standard ali shipping, cost me 30€.
> Dreve fotogel will not stuck because i know guys who sells audiologist stuff in france, so near me
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 You should try to ask them to ship it again maybe using a different service. it's the same stuff.
 If you don't want to take risk and plan on buying the Dreve one, ask for less than a kg if you can. you don't need more than 150gr to make molds and it's reusable


----------



## ForceMajeure

New pictures of the Ultimate ears pro 18+ are popping out.
 anyone wanna try to identify all the components there 
  
 https://unwire.hk/2016/12/16/ultimate-ears-18%EF%BC%8B-pro/mobile-music/headphones/
  
 https://www.spill.hk/experience/audio/UE-18Plus-Pro-official-announced/
  
 http://www.digitaltrends.com/home-theater/ultimate-ears-ue-18-pro-first-impressions/


----------



## sanekn

forcemajeure said:


> You should try to ask them to ship it again maybe using a different service. it's the same stuff.
> If you don't want to take risk and plan on buying the Dreve one, ask for less than a kg if you can. you don't need more than 150gr to make molds and it's reusable


 
 Yes, I will try to ask for less, thank you!


----------



## drumkendrum

shilohsjustice said:


> Hello all, I hope everyone has had a great Friday!!! Below I am going to outline how I do my Faceplates, note that this is my method and others go about it much differently. This so far works for me, for this example I'm using a shell with no drivers or connections in it!
> 
> You will need:
> 
> ...




What kind of grit do you use to sand the edges and such off? And buffing compound? This is amazing !


----------



## ziixtreme

This is mine, but i made this a universal

  

 Not perfect but I will try to improve on my next built.
  

 Here is the frequency response graph, left and right have a slight imbalance but very difficult to detect by ear.


----------



## Squirg

Sup HFers!  Twas a busy weekend!  Two sets completed!  One was a 3-way with CI, BK, WBFK and the other 4-way with Sonion 3800 and TWFK (much easier of the two).  The above graph is the 3 way.


----------



## Squirg

By the way, found the BEST little instrument for cleaning out tubes!  I was searching around the house for pipe cleaners which turned out to be too big.  BUT, I stole these...
  

  
  
 from my son for his braces and they are the perfect size for cleaning out IEM sound tubes...


----------



## sowright

With the help of everyone here, I accomplished what I set out to do..
  
 Here's my wireless CIEM using the internals from my Jaybird Bluebuds X and BK-28562:
  

  
 Charging:
  

  
  
 Charged:


----------



## sbsmyth

What kind and size of Dremel Bits do you guys use to drill the sound tubes and to cut a hole go the jacks?


----------



## ForceMajeure

Great work guys!
@Squirg I can't see all the pictures you posted, can't see the graphs.
  
 That Jaybird is so cool.
  
  


sbsmyth said:


> What kind and size of Dremel Bits do you guys use to drill the sound tubes and to cut a hole go the jacks?


 
 I use small diamond burr bits, smaller than the hole I want to drill and gently enlarge the hole with them, for the jack I use a disk


----------



## MuZo2

I use tapered diamond burrs for holes & disc for the jack.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

You know you addicted to making IEM's when;


----------



## Squirg

squirg said:


> By the way, found the BEST little instrument for cleaning out tubes!  I was searching around the house for pipe cleaners which turned out to be too big.  BUT, I stole these...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Not sure why my pics are not showing but here is a link.  Trust me, these things are awesome!
  
 http://www.gumbrand.com/gum-go-betweens-proxabrush-handle-with-refills-625uc.html


----------



## sbsmyth

Guys I'm frustrated! I'm followed Shilo's steps perfectly with the gelatin mold (even tried krystalloid) and his process for shell making and my shells ALWAYS come out looking like this! Any tips?? Also, anyone know how to cleanup a shell that looks like this to make them smooth? Thanks!


----------



## Squirg

sbsmyth said:


> Guys I'm frustrated! I'm followed Shilo's steps perfectly with the gelatin mold (even tried krystalloid) and his process for shell making and my shells ALWAYS come out looking like this! Any tips?? Also, anyone know how to cleanup a shell that looks like this to make them smooth? Thanks!


 
 I had the same issues.  Once I figured out the right temp. for the colloid everything changed.  Krystalloid needs to be around 115F when you pour it over your impressions.  Also, are you using Nice-Fit?  I just got some in and I am having aweful results.  Similar to yours.  Dreve or Egger products are far superior and much easier to work with.
  
   However, you can still make decent shells with what you have but it is going to take a lot of sanding (I use the diff. colored sanding wheels for Dremel) and Lac3.  I highly recommend getting the Laquer from Dreve.  It's like $25 and it makes finishing so easy.
  
 Good luck!


----------



## sbsmyth

squirg said:


> I had the same issues.  Once I figured out the right temp. for the colloid everything changed.  Krystalloid needs to be around 115F when you pour it over your impressions.  Also, are you using Nice-Fit?  I just got some in and I am having aweful results.  Similar to yours.  Dreve or Egger products are far superior and much easier to work with.
> 
> However, you can still make decent shells with what you have but it is going to take a lot of sanding (I use the diff. colored sanding wheels for Dremel) and Lac3.  I highly recommend getting the Laquer from Dreve.  It's like $25 and it makes finishing so easy.
> 
> Good luck!




Thanks for the tips! I actually used gelatin for these shells. I have the Colloid from lightning enterprises l, but I was getting horrific results with it. It was cloudy. My investments look a lot clearer with the gelatin using Shiloh's recipe. I have the Dreve Laquer and I agree 100% it's a game changer! I just look at Shilohs shells and DREAM about what it would be like to get shells that good right out of the investment.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

sbsmyth said:


> Thanks for the tips! I actually used gelatin for these shells. I have the Colloid from lightning enterprises l, but I was getting horrific results with it. It was cloudy. My investments look a lot clearer with the gelatin using Shiloh's recipe. I have the Dreve Laquer and I agree 100% it's a game changer! I just look at Shilohs shells and DREAM about what it would be like to get shells that good right out of the investment.




It did take several tries and months and months of trial and error to get to the results I get now, also lots of help from people here on the forum, I too at one point was very discouraged and had a few sleepless nights wondering what I was doing. Stick with it, all it takes is one great set of shells and you'll be encouraged. I have not used the nice-fit material but have heard it is extremely difficult to work with. I like the Dreve because it is consistent from one bottle to the next. 

Are you dipping your impressions in wax before you make your investment with the colloid? 

If I am using gelatin and it is an old batch I will sometimes get the little bubbles on the shells as well. They can be sanded and buffed out, it takes a little bit of elbow grease though. Nothing worse than spending a good hour sanding and buffing shells for it to be slammed on the floor crushed from it slipping out of your hands while trying to get that glass like surface at the arbor.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

I use a 120 grit sanding wheel like the one below, this seems to work well unless trying to sand hard woods (I'll go through several when doing wood faceplates.) 



Several months back I switched to the below buffing compound - best brand and compound I have used so far. I've tried about 4 other brands. The Enkay is for me the best. 




Below is the buffing wheel I use. Again, I tried several and this by far has rendered the best results for me.


----------



## MuZo2

What are you using for curing? I had similar results with nail UV station, but after building LED curing unit results are much better & faster. Also are you using wax?


----------



## sbsmyth

muzo2 said:


> What are you using for curing? I had similar results with nail UV station, but after building LED curing unit results are much better & faster. Also are you using wax?




I'm using a UV nail station. Where did you get the materials and how did you build your new unit? Got any pics??


----------



## sbsmyth

shilohsjustice said:


> It did take several tries and months and months of trial and error to get to the results I get now, also lots of help from people here on the forum, I too at one point was very discouraged and had a few sleepless nights wondering what I was doing. Stick with it, all it takes is one great set of shells and you'll be encouraged. I have not used the nice-fit material but have heard it is extremely difficult to work with. I like the Dreve because it is consistent from one bottle to the next.
> 
> Are you dipping your impressions in wax before you make your investment with the colloid?
> 
> If I am using gelatin and it is an old batch I will sometimes get the little bubbles on the shells as well. They can be sanded and buffed out, it takes a little bit of elbow grease though. Nothing worse than spending a good hour sanding and buffing shells for it to be slammed on the floor crushed from it slipping out of your hands while trying to get that glass like surface at the arbor.




I have tried several different methods. I bought a product called "Abdrucklack" that leaves impressions with a smooth glossy finish. I have also tried using Dreve UV Laquer with similar results. Nothing great yet. I did end up getting a decent set of shells after an hour of sanding/buffing. 

Ran out of Fotoplast today, but felt like I got a great price on the big 500g bottle for $148. Is that about what everyone is paying?


----------



## Andrumgt

Hello guys,
I am reading your posts for the past six months and I have a few questions.
From what I have read, there are a few ways of colouring the UV shell material(i am using egger LP H):some say to use ink for tattoos, some use the food industry colours, some use acryl dye, some use nail gel colour, some use acrylyc paint.
Which one works best for this material?i will need to do also clear colours and also opaque colours.
Which one do most of you guys use?

And another one:anyone tryed doing filled shells?i mean, fill them with material and not leave them hollow.

Respect!
Thank you!


----------



## MuZo2

sbsmyth said:


> I have tried several different methods. I bought a product called "Abdrucklack" that leaves impressions with a smooth glossy finish. I have also tried using Dreve UV Laquer with similar results. Nothing great yet. I did end up getting a decent set of shells after an hour of sanding/buffing.
> 
> Ran out of Fotoplast today, but felt like I got a great price on the big 500g bottle for $148. Is that about what everyone is paying?




148$ is good price for 500g. Where did you buy Abdrucklack material?


----------



## MuZo2

sbsmyth said:


> I'm using a UV nail station. Where did you get the materials and how did you build your new unit? Got any pics??



I used UV led strip from eBay, I guess its for aquarium or reptiles. I used 12V 2A adapter to power it. The strip is glued inside a cylindrical tube so that impressions are cured from all sides.


----------



## sbsmyth

muzo2 said:


> 148$ is good price for 500g. Where did you buy Abdrucklack material?




I get a lot of my materials from Oaktree products including Abdrucklack and Fotoplast. Some things are a lot cheaper on their website. Check them out!


----------



## jbr1971

sbsmyth said:


> I get a lot of my materials from Oaktree products including Abdrucklack and Fotoplast. Some things are a lot cheaper on their website. Check them out!


 
  
 How much is the Abdrucklack? The Oaktree site does not show any prices.


----------



## sbsmyth

jbr1971 said:


> How much is the Abdrucklack? The Oaktree site does not show any prices.




Once you create an account you can see all prices. The Abdrucklack is $15.50 and it goes a LONG way. You could probably coat way over 100 impressions with the tiny bottle.


----------



## piotrus-g

Just a heads up impression silicone lacquer will leave very very thin layer, perfectly smooth, but very thin. Which means that you may need to be prepared for extra work after processing acrylic shell to make shell thicker. Otherwise your fit might be loose.


----------



## Andrumgt

andrumgt said:


> Hello guys,
> I am reading your posts for the past six months and I have a few questions.
> From what I have read, there are a few ways of colouring the UV shell material(i am using egger LP H):some say to use ink for tattoos, some use the food industry colours, some use acryl dye, some use nail gel colour, some use acrylyc paint.
> Which one works best for this material?i will need to do also clear colours and also opaque colours.
> ...



Nothing?,
Is it a secret?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

andrumgt said:


> Nothing?,
> Is it a secret?




No secret, it's been posted a few times. I have been using Reain Colorant, it comes in transparent and opaque. I'm can't remember the brand and I'm out right now but it was also posted several pages back. :thumbsup_tone2:


----------



## sbsmyth

shilohsjustice said:


> No secret, it's been posted a few times. I have been using Reain Colorant, it comes in transparent and opaque. I'm can't remember the brand and I'm out right now but it was also posted several pages back. :thumbsup_tone2:




Resin Obsession k_hand_tone3: Bought a bunch and love it.


----------



## Andrumgt

Great guys!
Lets hope I'll find it in europe as well...


----------



## Bad Username

andrumgt said:


> Hello guys,
> I am reading your posts for the past six months and I have a few questions.
> From what I have read, there are a few ways of colouring the UV shell material(i am using egger LP H):some say to use ink for tattoos, some use the food industry colours, some use acryl dye, some use nail gel colour, some use acrylyc paint.
> Which one works best for this material?i will need to do also clear colours and also opaque colours.
> ...


 
 Acrylic paint will not work well, unless you are using very little to get a slight tint. More than a few drops and it will leave you with a soft and brittle shell after curing. Pigments work well, though i cant speak for their hypoallergenic properties. There are also resin dyes that are meant for sla 3d printer resins, which will work perfectly for this.
  
 I have done filled shells. The isolation from a filled shell is significantly higher assuming you have a good seal. Just make sure you are using non vented drivers.


----------



## MuZo2

sbsmyth said:


> Resin Obsession k_hand_tone3: Bought a bunch and love it.



Are they skin safe?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

muzo2 said:


> Are they skin safe?




I'm pretty sure it is because it is specifically formulated for resin jewelry such as bracelets and rings earrings and necklaces.


----------



## Andrumgt

Thanks guys, let.s hope it.s available in europe, also.
I wold have bought the pigment from egger themselves, but they have only the basic colours( R G B Y), and if you need white, for example, you have to mix it up yourself.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Hello all, I just wanted to share some of the latest techniques I have been doing to create great colorful shells. Some are sparkles, some have an oil spill look, some have a color run look. The two shells below I did just to post on here. This technique is coloring the inside of the shell as opposed to the exterior. Why? Well I'm using clear fotoplast to make a nice hollow shell, I know it's safe for skin and extremely durable, it's also makes for a superior high gloss look making the colors extremely vibrant. 

If you haven't made the rotator yet, you need to!! It's a game changer, and will help all those who use Laquer on there shells. It rotates and provides a great even perfect coating on the shell. I made mine for $9.00, I posted it several pages back and it will take your builds to the next level. It just so happens it works great for the technique I'm currently doing with specialized shells that have funky colors or glitter. 

Here is a pic of my home made rotator;


For the shells in this example I used nail polish (coating the interior of the shell);


Here are the results;


As you can see they look pretty cool. The blue shell looks cool because it has an oil spill look and goes from purple to blue in different lighting. 

Steps
1. Coat the inside of the shell. 
2. Let it rotate until its dry, some dry writhing 10min, some longer depending on how thick a coat. You can always coat let dry then coat again. 
3. Polish the shell or coat with Laquer. 
4. Look in amazement at what you created.


Also works wonders on solid colors, check out these black shells done with the same technique;


----------



## Andrumgt

Daaamn!!those shells look real good!

I seem to have missed your posts about the rotato, can you please point it out ?
I made myself one, but i still don.t like the grip from the alligator clips i found, they have an "agressive grip" and i am afraid that the shell will crack.Do you use your rotating motor just for laquering?

I use a cylinder motor with reductor, that goes to about 10 rpm.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

andrumgt said:


> Daaamn!!those shells look real good!
> 
> I seem to have missed your posts about the rotato, can you please point it out ?
> I made myself one, but i still don.t like the grip from the alligator clips i found, they have an "agressive grip" and i am afraid that the shell will crack.Do you use your rotating motor just for laquering?
> ...




Link below, I did modify it a bit by putting an inline switch. I scrapped the turntable part because of my current UV setup. The clip I used was from a helping hand soldering arm. I put heatshrink on the barrel of the motor and a toothpick in the back of the clip so it just slides in. Works great! Same motor as the expensive rotary units. 

DIY Rotator


----------



## Andrumgt

How do you laqueur your shells?with a brush, or do you dip them?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

andrumgt said:


> How do you laqueur your shells?with a brush, or do you dip them?




I use both techniques, depending on what I am trying to accomplish. If they are colored shells And it warrants Laquer I will dip them. I usually will drill the first hole for the tubes and dip straight down, drilling first ensures the air exits as you dip. I will use Laquer to build up sometimes if the fit is not right so in this instances I use the brush. Small shells I may just use the brush.


----------



## ForceMajeure

ziixtreme said:


> This is mine, but i made this a universal
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Great work
  
 How have you made this universal shell? Is it pre-made? Did you use a one ready made as a mold?
 Have you bought those ready made UE stickers?
 What driver did you use?


----------



## ziixtreme

forcemajeure said:


> Great work
> 
> How have you made this universal shell? Is it pre-made? Did you use a one ready made as a mold?
> Have you bought those ready made UE stickers?
> What driver did you use?




Nope, I bought the mold and make a negative form myself. The UE logo can be bought at many place. Drivers Sonion33+2389


----------



## ForceMajeure

shilohsjustice said:


> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!






> Here are the results;
> 
> 
> As you can see they look pretty cool. The blue shell looks cool because it has an oil spill look and goes from purple to blue in different lighting.
> ...


 
  


 Someone won't be happy when they discover their nail polish gone 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 That blue shell is gorgeous.


----------



## ForceMajeure

ziixtreme said:


> Nope, I bought the mold and make a negative form myself. The UE logo can be bought at many place. Drivers Sonion33+2389


 
 Awesome.
 You bought the mold on taobao as well as the stickers?


----------



## ziixtreme

forcemajeure said:


> Awesome.
> You bought the mold on taobao as well as the stickers?




Yes.


----------



## ForceMajeure

What sonion 33 did you use? What crossover, dampers? 
 Where did you buy the sonion on taobao?


----------



## cyph3r

Hi all, 
  
 I am frequent reader of this thread and read many pages of it. 
  
*Maybe I haven't seen it but is there any effort to get better organised?* It looks like quite a few folks (including myself) attempting and succeeding to construct their own IEMs. 
  
 A more organise effort could make this significantly easier and a lot cheaper. For example other DIY groups set up group buys for parts and set up specific WIKIs etc.
  
 I see many activities where better collaboration and organisation could help
 - advice / tutorials
 - sourcing parts
 - group buys
 - development and exchange of design files (e.g. 3D printed shells etc). 
 - joint community designs
 - organised / reproducible testing and data-based improvement
  
 I believe there are lots of folks out there with sufficient knowledge and experience around to *create a community IEM kits with zero development and overhead cost and reduced, lowest possible COGs for everyone to assemble at home*.  
  
*Anyone interested in this? PM me.*


----------



## Andrumgt

[ATTACHMENT=4077]IMG_1530.JPG (1,721k. JPG file)[/ATTACHMENT]
[ATTACHMENT=4078]IMG_1529.JPG (1,881k. JPG file)[/ATTACHMENT]
[ATTACHMENT=4079][ATTACHMENT=4080]IMG_1531.JPG (1,638k. JPG file)[/ATTACHMENT]
[ATTACHMENT=4081]IMG_1532.JPG (1,730k. JPG file)[/ATTACHMENT]
[ATTACHMENT=4082]IMG_1528.JPG (1,370k. JPG file)[/ATTACHMENT]
Just finished tuning my curing unit woth some blue leds.
Works great!


----------



## Cutty

So basically what I've gathered is that if I buy two Knowles GK drivers, some SE535 shells, and some mmcx connectors, I can easily solder together some IEMs?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

cutty said:


> So basically what I've gathered is that if I buy two Knowles GK drivers, some SE535 shells, and some mmcx connectors, I can easily solder together some IEMs?




Yup you are correct, and the GK's sound great too!!!!!!!


----------



## MuZo2

andrumgt said:


> [ATTACHMENT=4077]IMG_1530.JPG (1,721k. JPG file)[/ATTACHMENT]
> [ATTACHMENT=4078]IMG_1529.JPG (1,881k. JPG file)[/ATTACHMENT]
> [ATTACHMENT=4079][ATTACHMENT=4080]IMG_1531.JPG (1,638k. JPG file)[/ATTACHMENT]
> [ATTACHMENT=4081]IMG_1532.JPG (1,730k. JPG file)[/ATTACHMENT]
> ...




Any shell pics?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

forcemajeure said:


> Someone won't be happy when they discover their nail polish gone
> That blue shell is gorgeous.




Lol, I look real manly in the checkout line with a handful of nail polish. I actually caught myself asking my wife if she took my nail polish once. She still never lets me live that one down, and of course has told all our friends I buy nail polish. Good thing is I have 3 daughters so between them and my wife I can play it off. 

I purchase it only for my IEM's though, lol. I'm not allowed to use there's, hahahaha.


----------



## ziixtreme

cutty said:


> So basically what I've gathered is that if I buy two Knowles GK drivers, some SE535 shells, and some mmcx connectors, I can easily solder together some IEMs?




Not as easy as it seems to put drivers into the shure shell. A tip for you is that you may find sealing a problem


----------



## omgflyingbanana

Using some sort of foam from ear plugs, putting a hole through them and epoxying the foam to the nozzle of the armature to the shell seems to work great. Be sure to trim the foam so it's a few mm thick.


----------



## Andrumgt

muzo2 said:


> Any shell pics?



Freshly "baked"[ATTACHMENT=4083]IMG_1534.JPG (1,085k. JPG file)[/ATTACHMENT]


----------



## Cutty

ziixtreme said:


> Not as easy as it seems to put drivers into the shure shell. A tip for you is that you may find sealing a problem


 What universal shells would you recommend?


----------



## ziixtreme

cutty said:


> What universal shells would you recommend?




Make your own. Use a pre made one and make a negative form.


----------



## omgflyingbanana

Anyone know how I can make a simple full-silicone CIEM with a non-removable cable like the CustomArt Music One? What silicone and mold material would I use? What would the process for silicone shells be like? I sent Piotrus a PM but he can't reveal the specific manufacturing process, which is understandable.


----------



## ForceMajeure

omgflyingbanana said:


> Anyone know how I can make a simple full-silicone CIEM with a non-removable cable like the CustomArt Music One? What silicone and mold material would I use? What would the process for silicone shells be like? I sent Piotrus a PM but he can't reveal the specific manufacturing process, which is understandable.


 
 I am sure Pitor have a few ticks under his sleeve, as dealing with this hobby requires experience as we are all learning along the way...
 .
 The overall process is almost the same as acrylic no need for uv...you need some AB DREVE biopor silicone material or other similar products from other companies. I think 40 shore is the usual hardness.
 There are a few vid on youtube showing the overall process this one for example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WgR3-NgD3E
  
 A few things to remember; don't use vented driver unless you make a pocket of air for them while filling the shell after it have been emptied. Silicone mold tend to turn yellow with time and are annoying to insert.
 you will need a special lacquer to coat them.
 That's all I got for now


----------



## ForceMajeure

Guys I am working on a uerm clone and I am having issues...weird caused last time I had no problem.
  
 Anyone can confirm the CI 60003 used by UE is the same as CI22955, same impedance on both? cause so far using the lowpass filter and High pass filter used by UE. The bass is way above the crossovered mid and treble... any advice is welcomed


----------



## piotrus-g

forcemajeure said:


> Guys I am working on a uerm clone and I am having issues...weird caused last time I had no problem.
> 
> Anyone can confirm the CI 60003 used by UE is the same as CI22955, same impedance on both? cause so far using the lowpass filter and High pass filter used by UE. The bass is way above the crossovered mid and treble... any advice is welcomed


 

 They are different drivers. Different impedance and fr response. CI-60003 is custom made so it's pretty much impossible to get them.
 PS: any Knowles driver staring with 6xxxxx is proprietary and Knowles won't send you even pdf spec sheets.


----------



## ForceMajeure

piotrus-g said:


> They are different drivers. Different impedance and fr response. CI-60003 is custom made so it's pretty much impossible to get them.
> PS: any Knowles driver staring with 6xxxxx is proprietary and Knowles won't send you even pdf spec sheets.


 
 So that may explain a few things... I think the CI-60003 have a much bigger impedance than the 22955. Cause using the lowpass filter on the 22955 (28ohm and 6.8uf) gave me a cutoff similar to the uerm but when used with the high pass halftaped 2X2389, it had too much spl and the mid and high were too low.
  
 Any idea how could the 22955 might be matched to the CI-60003?


----------



## piotrus-g

forcemajeure said:


> Any idea how could the 22955 might be matched to the CI-60003?


 
 It's not possible. It has completely different output (possibly different motor and diaphragm) I'd suggest just replacing the other 60003 with 22955 and adding some resistance in line if you feel like 22955 has too high SPL


----------



## ForceMajeure

piotrus-g said:


> It's not possible. It has completely different output (possibly different motor and diaphragm) I'd suggest just replacing the other 60003 with 22955 and adding some resistance in line if you feel like 22955 has too high SPL


 
  
 Have you had the chance to test a 60003 against the 22955 and check FR and impedance charts?
  
 Also Wiring the CI22955 half tap will lower its spl outpout?


----------



## Squirg

forcemajeure said:


> Have you had the chance to test a 60003 against the 22955 and check FR and impedance charts?
> 
> Also Wiring the CI22955 half tap will lower its spl outpout?


 
 I have a UE CI-60003 and it measured exactly like the 22955 on my Veritas.  But again, any Knowles driver that starts with 6 is pretty much a wild card.  
  
 CI at half tap should increase spl if I'm not mistaken...just like a 2389 or ED...


----------



## omgflyingbanana

forcemajeure said:


> I am sure Pitor have a few ticks under his sleeve, as dealing with this hobby requires experience as we are all learning along the way...
> .
> The overall process is almost the same as acrylic no need for uv...you need some AB DREVE biopor silicone material or other similar products from other companies. I think 40 shore is the usual hardness.
> There are a few vid on youtube showing the overall process this one for example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WgR3-NgD3E
> ...


 
 Thank you. Stupid question but could you make a mold and the actual CIEM from the same silicone? And can you use nail polish to coat?


----------



## piotrus-g

forcemajeure said:


> Have you had the chance to test a 60003 against the 22955 and check FR and impedance charts?
> 
> Also Wiring the CI22955 half tap will lower its spl outpout?



Yes i did. We remolded IEMs with 60003 few times.

The biggest difference was that 22955 had first peak around 800Hz while 60003 peaked around 2kHz. It was very low 3-4dB bump. Regular CI also stated to roll off after first peak while 60003 rolled after 4kHz if my memory is correct. I didn't measure impedance, though, just fr, but Rdc is different as far as i remember.
I think i may have one 60003 in the lab, I'll check tomorrow. If so I'll post graphs.

Wiring CI half coil will cut its impedance by two effectively making it louder.


----------



## ForceMajeure

squirg said:


> I have a UE CI-60003 and it measured exactly like the 22955 on my Veritas.  But again, any Knowles driver that starts with 6 is pretty much a wild card.
> 
> CI at half tap should increase spl if I'm not mistaken...just like a 2389 or ED...


 
  
 Do you have a "jig", can you measure the 6003 impedance chart on limp (arta impedance software suite) please and post it?
  
 I can help you make it, it's very easy.


----------



## ForceMajeure

piotrus-g said:


> Yes i did. We remolded IEMs with 60003 few times.
> 
> The biggest difference was that 22955 had first peak around 800Hz while 60003 peaked around 2kHz. It was very low 3-4dB bump. Regular CI also stated to roll off after first peak while 60003 rolled after 4kHz if my memory is correct. I didn't measure impedance, though, just fr, but Rdc is different as far as i remember.
> I think i may have one 60003 in the lab, I'll check tomorrow. If so I'll post graphs.
> ...


 
  
 If you could post graphs of frequency response and impedance that could be awesome! 
 Save me from my misery haha. I have been wiring this setup for 2 days trying al kind of configs and and crossovers, although I am pretty sure of the original values...


----------



## ForceMajeure

omgflyingbanana said:


> Thank you. Stupid question but could you make a mold and the actual CIEM from the same silicone? And can you use nail polish to coat?


 
  
 Ear impression material is not the same as the AB silicone, ear impression have a 20 shore resistance usually. it doesn't have the same flexibility and tear resistance as the AB silicone.
  
 Regarding the nail polish I wouldn't even try to use it in direct contact with my ears... the lacquer for silicone is not the same as it probably need to have some flexibility after curing and also need to adhere to a different kind of material like silicone ( I am not 100% sure though). There are matte lacquers and shiny ones type...I am not an expert on silicone molding.
 Making professional molds from silicone requires getting the right materials if you want to have good results.


----------



## piotrus-g

The only 60003 I have is damaged and unfortunately not suitable for FR or Z measurements. It measures Rdc at 19 Ohm, while regular 22955 is 20 Ohm.


----------



## ForceMajeure

piotrus-g said:


> The only 60003 I have is damaged and unfortunately not suitable for FR or Z measurements. It measures Rdc at 19 Ohm, while regular 22955 is 20 Ohm.


 
  
 Well, thank you. From the following list only the 22955 have Rdc of ~20ohm
  
 http://www.knowles.com/eng/Products/Balanced-armature-receivers-and-speakers/Radio-communications/CI-series-balanced-armature-speakers
  
  CI-22748-000,CI-22762-000,CI-22955-000,CI-22960-000,CI-28487-000,CI-28597-000. ​  
 The 60003 might be similar to the 22955 after all...still impedance and FR measurments need to be done Only @Squirg can help me now...


----------



## piotrus-g

forcemajeure said:


> Well, thank you. From the following list only the 22955 have Rdc of ~20ohm
> 
> http://www.knowles.com/eng/Products/Balanced-armature-receivers-and-speakers/Radio-communications/CI-series-balanced-armature-speakers
> 
> ...


 
 Still I'm going to say you cannot take Rdc at face value. If the coil inside is highly inductive (typical design for woofers) you can expect quick spikes in Z curves and completely different FR. Two drivers with same Rdc can have completely different FRs.
  
 Consider this, to order 60003 you have to order certain amount of those per year which is in kpcs, why would you go through all the hassle just so you can have a driver that is readily available (22955) and probably cheaper in those quantities. They simply cannot be identical.


----------



## ForceMajeure

I agree with you, also this could explain why I am having extreme difficulties replicating the correct response using the same crossovers (or maybe the 2389 used are not 2389).
  
 Something weird is going on, I have been going through elimination process step by step checking every component.  Trying different batch of drivers, still I am either doing something wrong or the driver is not the same...


----------



## Xymordos

Hmm sorry I actually thought the two CIs are the same. However, you can actually buy the CI60003 off Taobao. They also have several different kinds of 6xxxx series on offer too. I saw a 37QP007 (used in the VE6) for sale too.


----------



## ForceMajeure

xymordos said:


> Hmm sorry I actually thought the two CIs are the same. However, you can actually buy the CI60003 off Taobao. They also have several different kinds of 6xxxx series on offer too. I saw a 37QP007 (used in the VE6) for sale too.


 
 We still need to test this 
 I am hopping @Squirg will agree to measure impedance and FR on his rig so we can compare


----------



## Squirg

forcemajeure said:


> Well, thank you. From the following list only the 22955 have Rdc of ~20ohm
> 
> http://www.knowles.com/eng/Products/Balanced-armature-receivers-and-speakers/Radio-communications/CI-series-balanced-armature-speakers
> 
> ...


 
 I'm on it, Force!  I'll get it on a graph tonight compared to a 22955.  Stand by...


----------



## ForceMajeure

You will have to measure the impedance chart. If you know how to do it. 
 If not I can tell you how, so you could measure impedance graph on any headphone from now on using what is called a "Jig" ( a few cables and a resistor) using the software Limp that comes with ARTA.


----------



## Squirg

forcemajeure said:


> We still need to test this
> I am hopping @Squirg will agree to measure impedance and FR on his rig so we can compare


 
 I don't have a impedance jig but I've been meaning to make one for some time now.  This will be a good reason to whip one up.


----------



## Squirg

forcemajeure said:


> You will have to measure the impedance chart. If you know how to do it.
> If not I can tell you how, so you could measure impedance graph on any headphone from now on using what is called a "Jig" ( a few cables and a resistor) using the software Limp that comes with A


 
 Do you have the page number that the jig is on?  Or, PM the the schematics and Ill wire it up tonight.


----------



## ForceMajeure

squirg said:


> Do you have the page number that the jig is on?  Or, PM the the schematics and Ill wire it up tonight.


 
 http://www.artalabs.hr/AppNotes/LIMP_Tutorial_Version_2_4_English.pdf The schematics are on page 5....
  
 The easiest diagram showing how to do this Jig is this one
  
 You can use any resistor value as you need to update the value in the software anyway.
  
 If you want more pictures of the Jig you could google "Limp Jig Arta"
  
 This explain the process more or less http://zobsky.blogspot.co.il/2008/01/simple-loudspeaker-measurement-jig-for.html
  
 Basically once you made the Jig you open the Limp software:
 make sure your soundcard is chosen in Setup/ audio devices
  
 go the Setup/measurements and enter in Reference resistor the resistor value.
 If you want to be extra meticulous you could add the cable resistance in the Cable compensation button.
  
 Plug the jig without any headphone connected to it and click on the calibrate button once done (make sure it doesn't clip, if so you can reduce the output db levels there)
  
 Then you just have to click on the Start rec and it should display impedance and electrical phase graphs. 
 If it doesn't show them you might have to click on "fit" on the side.
  
 I just measured the impedance of the CI-22955 as an example
  
 This how it looks with ~81ohm at 1khz (I didn't measure cable impedance to un-compensate) so should be close to 80ohm

  
  
 If you solder one driver to your cable for measurement, make sure it's to the left side as the Right channel side is chosen as reference in Limp "measurement setup" (you can switch this setting in case you solder it to the other side).


----------



## Xymordos

I had an interesting experience when testing my new IEMs. I made them with the new UE style connectors. I first tested them using my original UERM cable and then I tried them with a mic cable I bought off Lunarcables. Last I tested them with a copper upgrade cable. 
  
 Assuming the copper cable is the normal frequency response, the UE cable resulted in a 2db frequency response dip from 3kHz up to 6db dip at 6kHz. The mic cable also resulted in a dip but was half that of the UE cable.
  
 Listening tests afterwards also proves the testing correct.
  
 Anyone else experienced this?


----------



## ForceMajeure

As far as I know, UE cable wiring have reverse polarity on one side. Not the same as regular 2pin cables where regularly the dot on the connector represents the positive part.
  
 This is how the UE cables are wired 

  
  
 L: B is Ground
 R: A is Ground
  
 Have you checked continuity with a multimeter on them? If this is the case then it could explain the dip you experience.


----------



## Xymordos

forcemajeure said:


> As far as I know, UE cable wiring have reverse polarity on one side. Not the same as regular 2pin cables where regularly the dot on the connector represents the positive part.
> 
> This is how the UE cables are wired
> 
> ...


 
  
 I haven't checked continuity, but they do sound "fine" - it sounded just darker than normal.
  
 AFAIK reversing the polarity shouldn't affect the sound, at least not by dropping the treble by 6db right? :\


----------



## ForceMajeure

xymordos said:


> I haven't checked continuity, but they do sound "fine" - it sounded just darker than normal.
> 
> AFAIK reversing the polarity shouldn't affect the sound, at least not by dropping the treble by 6db right? :\


 
  
It could if you have one of the multi drivers in reverse polarity in the first place in the iem.
 What IEM is this?
  
 Try to inverse one side of the cable when connecting just to check if it sounds off.


----------



## Xymordos

forcemajeure said:


> It could if you have one of the multi drivers in reverse polarity in the first place in the iem.
> What IEM is this?
> 
> Try to inverse one side of the cable when connecting just to check if it sounds off.


 
  
 Just tested, reversing it or not receives the same results.


----------



## ForceMajeure

Well, I wasn't sure because some iems have smd tantalum capacitors that have a polarity sign to them...this could have been the case
 You say that with the regular copper cable you have no problem?


----------



## noam056

good luck bro


----------



## MuZo2

noam056 said:


> good luck bro



?????


----------



## Xymordos

forcemajeure said:


> Well, I wasn't sure because some iems have smd tantalum capacitors that have a polarity sign to them...this could have been the case
> You say that with the regular copper cable you have no problem?


 
  
 Yup, I have several cables, and the aftermarket ones are fine. The UE style "original" cable is problematic, along with the UE style mic cable I bought off Lunarcables... Is it that their cables are too thin so their resistance is too high?


----------



## ForceMajeure

xymordos said:


> Yup, I have several cables, and the aftermarket ones are fine. The UE style "original" cable is problematic, along with the UE style mic cable I bought off Lunarcables... Is it that their cables are too thin so their resistance is too high?


 
 Maybe the resistance is a thing though I doubt it would yield such a significant dB drop (you could check resistance with a multimeter). you should try to measure the FR and check. Also try to reverse the connections and see if it affect anything.
  
 Maybe you are hearing the difference quality cables offer  Now you will start making your own custom high purity, high grade cables.
  
 I remember buying cheap semi finished lunashops cable 4 years ago to repair a GR07, first repair was bad but I soon discovered I soldered it in reverse polarity on one driver. After the 2nd solder job it sounded better but not as good as the original cable. Since then I bought other semi finished cables and soldered them to the GR07 and they sounded better, as good as the original (as far as I remember). So the quality could affect it, but not a major drop in dB as you are hearing.
 Also the semifinished cable quality they were selling 4 years ago was pretty bad ergonomic-wise.


----------



## myemaildw

Here's a project I've been working on and now completed and was real success. Basically it's a five driver pm4 which drives well even from low powered portable devices

[VIDEO]https://youtu.be/xQ-RqZn8wCc[/VIDEO]

I still need to glue in right iem I'm just contemplating putting a ba for high frequency to add sparkle that both iems lack or don't have. Anyone can recommend a resolving ba to buy to put in the custom iem?

Update on its performance

[VIDEO]https://youtu.be/sfEnKRTqzSQ[/VIDEO]


----------



## Xymordos

forcemajeure said:


> Maybe the resistance is a thing though I doubt it would yield such a significant dB drop (you could check resistance with a multimeter). you should try to measure the FR and check. Also try to reverse the connections and see if it affect anything.
> 
> Maybe you are hearing the difference quality cables offer  Now you will start making your own custom high purity, high grade cables.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Maybe you're right :\ I'll stick with the aftermarket cables from now on...just that the original one is miles better in terms of ergonomics  
  
 BTW, if any one is interested, here's an interesting thing I found on Taobao:
 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1z0d.7625083.1998302264.6.UDs5Qj&id=544392848907


----------



## ForceMajeure

myemaildw said:


> Here's a project I've been working on and now completed and was real success. Basically it's a five driver pm4 which drives well even from low powered portable devices
> 
> I still need to glue in right iem I'm just contemplating putting a ba for high frequency to add sparkle that both iems lack or don't have. Anyone can recommend a resolving ba to buy to put in the custom iem?
> 
> Update on its performance


 
  
 You placed the Flare driver inside the nozzle? does it have space around it so the sound from the 2ba and 2dd pass through?
  
  


xymordos said:


> Maybe you're right :\ I'll stick with the aftermarket cables from now on...just that the original one is miles better in terms of ergonomics
> 
> BTW, if any one is interested, here's an interesting thing I found on Taobao:
> https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1z0d.7625083.1998302264.6.UDs5Qj&id=544392848907


 
  
 Nice find, now how would you go to secure this nozzle to an acrylic? Use a universal acryilic shell, make the right adjustments so the nozzle fits and pour acrylic to cure it around?


----------



## myemaildw

forcemajeure said:


> You placed the Flare driver inside the nozzle? does it have space around it so the sound from the 2ba and 2dd pass through?
> 
> 
> 
> Nice find, now how would you go to secure this nozzle to an acrylic? Use a universal acryilic shell, make the right adjustments so the nozzle fits and pour acrylic to cure it around?




ye that's why I put second gasket on filter, has two functions adds space for pm4 dd and ba and to avoid crushing flare microdriver.


----------



## Xymordos

Actually that same shop sells a universal shell with the nozzle attached :O


----------



## MuZo2

xymordos said:


> Actually that same shop sells a universal shell with the nozzle attached :O




Black shell, with carbon faceplate?


----------



## Xymordos

muzo2 said:


> Black shell, with carbon faceplate?


 
 Yup that one


----------



## Cutty

For a first timer, what method should I use constructing my first CIEM/shell? I know it won't be easy but I'm willing to learn.


----------



## Cutty

Also has anyone considered making shells out of PCL?


----------



## jbr1971

cutty said:


> For a first timer, what method should I use constructing my first CIEM/shell? I know it won't be easy but I'm willing to learn.


 
  
 If you have access to a good 3D scanner and printer that would probably be a good way to start out.
  
 If not, the Fotoplast (or equivalent) and nail dryer/LED curing chamber route is a good bet. Most folks here have done well starting there.
  
 Good luck.


----------



## MuZo2

jbr1971 said:


> If you have access to a good 3D scanner and printer that would probably be a good way to start out.
> 
> If not, the Fotoplast (or equivalent) and nail dryer/LED curing chamber route is a good bet. Most folks here have done well starting there.
> 
> Good luck.



Scanner & printer are big investment 5-10k. Most people here use traditional UV curing method.


----------



## Cutty

Think polycarbolactone would work? Thinking of giving it a shot.


----------



## Cutty

Anyone thought of using photogrammetry to create a 3d model of the ear molds?


----------



## jbr1971

cutty said:


> Anyone thought of using photogrammetry to create a 3d model of the ear molds?


 
  
 I looked into having a local company scan my impressions, but they wanted $125-150 to do it. I could not justify that amount.
  
 I also looked into building my own scanner, but again, the cost was prohibitive given how much use I would get out of it.
  
 If you know someone with a good scanner, or are able to find a company that will do it for a reasonable price, it could be a good way to go.


----------



## piotrus-g

jbr1971 said:


> I looked into having a local company scan my impressions, but they wanted $125-150 to do it. I could not justify that amount.
> 
> I also looked into building my own scanner, but again, the cost was prohibitive given how much use I would get out of it.
> 
> If you know someone with a good scanner, or are able to find a company that will do it for a reasonable price, it could be a good way to go.


 

 Lol I think Dreve charges like below €10 for scan (I think the price was €2), you can hit them or egger and ask if they are willing to scan them for you


----------



## MIke M

Maybe I should start offering that service. I currently charge audiologists $5 usd per side.


----------



## jbr1971

mike m said:


> Maybe I should start offering that service. I currently charge audiologists $5 usd per side.


 
  
 For prices like that, it might be worth it for me to ship my impressions to you, if you were to start offering the service.


----------



## ForceMajeure

I remember some company offering that service 
 ah found that http://www.plussoundaudio.com/services/3dearimpressionscanning.html


----------



## Cutty

There's multiple 3d scanning apps for iphone.


----------



## Cutty

Check out 123d catch


----------



## jbr1971

cutty said:


> There's multiple 3d scanning apps for iphone.


 
  
 I had seen the scanning apps during my initial search, but dismissed them worrying about resolution.
  
 Now that I have looked into 123D Catch more thoroughly, it appears I was mistaken to dismiss it so quickly. I will have to give it a try.
  
 Thanks for pointing me back to it.
  
 Update:
  
 It looks like 123D Catch has been discontinued, but there are other free open-source options available that should work just as well


----------



## MIke M

I can't see any reason not to. Feel free to send them in if you like.


----------



## Andrumgt

Any of you guys ever scanned impressions with a non-dedicated ear impression scanner?If you did, how did they turned out? I scanned a couple of impressions with a 3d scanner from makerbot, called digitizer, and the resolution was quite good, never printed them out though, because they seemed a little bit larger than actual size.Any of you guys had this problem?I scanned them with the sanner's software, then edited them out in the earmould producer software from 3shape.
Did you tried any of the SLA printers from taobao or aliex?how dod they turned out?
Thanks!


----------



## cyph3r

I am looking into sourcing dynamic drivers for an IEM project. Balanced armatures are readily available. Does anyone have a tip where to source hifi grade IEM sized (<15 mm) high quality dynamic drivers?


----------



## Andrumgt

Taobao or aliex, soundlink from aliex are the bigest.


----------



## jbr1971

cyph3r said:


> I am looking into sourcing dynamic drivers for an IEM project. Balanced armatures are readily available. Does anyone have a tip where to source hifi grade IEM sized (<15 mm) high quality dynamic drivers?


 
  
 I took the Geek Verb earphones I had and tore them apart to get the drivers. They are around 10mm in diameter, and when they are implemented correctly they actually sound very good.
  
 I added the Verb dynamic to the GK from my Westone W4R, and with some tuning it all sounds really good.
  
 You might be able to get some Verbs used really cheap. I was able to get a few sets off of the Head-Fi for sale board.


----------



## omgflyingbanana

Anyone know the values of the damper and resistor in the Knowles HE? 
  
 Does an ED-29689 + CI-22955 with a 10 ohm resistor and 2 x 2.2uf capacitors sound alright?


----------



## ForceMajeure

omgflyingbanana said:


> Anyone know the values of the damper and resistor in the Knowles HE?
> 
> Does an ED-29689 + CI-22955 with a 10 ohm resistor and 2 x 2.2uf capacitors sound alright?


 
 Don't know about the Knowles HE. But Shilo posted a very similar configuration as the ED and CI you asked about 
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/430688/home-made-iems/5130#post_12775776


----------



## MuZo2

mike m said:


> I can't see any reason not to. Feel free to send them in if you like.



Where are you located?


----------



## sanekn

Hello guys, the niec-fit agar reached my house this time, let's the tests begin!


----------



## ForceMajeure

sanekn said:


> Hello guys, the niec-fit agar reached my house this time, let's the tests begin!


 
 Don't use a microwave to heat it.
 Place it in a glass container an put in a pot whit boiling water until it melts, stir from time to time. don't overcook it. Melting temperature is 94C I think.
 Let it cool down to 53C and pour over your impressions slowly.


----------



## sanekn

forcemajeure said:


> Don't use a microwave to heat it.
> Place it in a glass container an put in a pot whit boiling water until it melts, stir from time to time. don't overcook it. Melting temperature is 94C I think.
> Let it cool down to 53C and pour over your impressions slowly.


 
 Did exactly that and it works like a charm, thank you friend


----------



## Squirg

[/IMG]


----------



## Squirg

squirg said:


> [attach]1815338[/attach][/quote]
> 
> Dual 2015, dual 2389.  Sounds great after boring out the horn.  This was my first attempt at it.  Anyone else have any experience forming a horn?


----------



## Squirg

squirg said:


> [attach]1815338[/attach][/quote]
> 
> Dual 2015 and dual 2389.  Sounds good after boring out the horn.  Anyone have any tips for creating a horn?


----------



## Squirg




----------



## Xymordos

That wood face plate looks amazing! It actually so well rounded that it looks one with the shell.


----------



## sanekn

This is really impressive mate!
  
 just for info guys, those 12v UV led strips works extragood with Fotoplast!


----------



## Mogol

Hi guys!
  
 For several months, I'm interested in the making of DIY CIEM. I have some experience, but even more - questions. I did pair of headphones with dynamic speakers and they sounds bad =). Maybe later i can show you some photos.
  
 Now i work on the second project - single BA CIEM. I use EGGER LP/H for shells and i want to make the metal faceplates (only for this project). The problem is that i  can not attach faceplate to the shell (i use Loctite 420 glue), and LP/H covering the faceplate flake off. Here and on other web resources i see many beautiful CIEM with wood, metal, plastic etc faceplates. Can you, guys tell me more detailed how to put together all that parts. Even if i can glue the faceplate to the shell (change superglue or use epoxy), i don't know how to make a good looking cover using acrylic. Maybe special laquer hold that parts together? 
  
 Sorry for my english, and excuse me if i did not notice the posts about this issue.


----------



## sanekn

mogol said:


> Hi guys!
> 
> For several months, I'm interested in the making of DIY CIEM. I have some experience, but even more - questions. I did pair of headphones with dynamic speakers and they sounds bad =). Maybe later i can show you some photos.
> 
> ...


 
 I use the bi-component epoxy resin for the wood ones. For acryllic i think it's the lacquer instead of glue (i have the fotoplast lack 3)


----------



## tomekk

Hi everyone! I read your posts from 3 months, now I work actively on the first prototypes. While waiting for a package of Soundlink, I have been working on the reshells. (first) Super Fi 3 and (second) TF10.
  
  
 It's a UV nail gel (gelatinous sticky bad stuff ), but I'll start playing seriously with a Dreve (soon 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





).


----------



## Mogol

sanekn said:


> I use the bi-component epoxy resin for the wood ones. For acryllic i think it's the lacquer instead of glue (i have the fotoplast lack 3)


 
 Tnx, but faceplate of your IEM looks like a thick layer (about 3 mm i guess). I try to achieve thin layer of metal (or plastic maybe) covered with acrylic for 2-3 mm.


----------



## sanekn

Hello all!  The duplicating material and my homemade curing chamber (a 100mm pvc tube, two round mirrors, 1m of uv led strip) working like intended finally. Still I need to practice so i will explode those i made yesterday and try to do it better this time.


----------



## Andrumgt

andrumgt said:


> Any of you guys ever scanned impressions with a non-dedicated ear impression scanner?If you did, how did they turned out? I scanned a couple of impressions with a 3d scanner from makerbot, called digitizer, and the resolution was quite good, never printed them out though, because they seemed a little bit larger than actual size.Any of you guys had this problem?I scanned them with the sanner's software, then edited them out in the earmould producer software from 3shape.
> Did you tried any of the SLA printers from taobao or aliex?how dod they turned out?
> Thanks!




Do all of my questions have secret answers?
Thanks!


----------



## Mogol

sanekn said:


> Hello all!
> 
> 
> 
> ...





> Your LED are 365 or 395 nm? Or it doesn't matter? How many watts?





> And the duplicating material, it remains wet after cooling? How it durable? Easy is it to mess it up, to split, pulling out the impression or shell?


----------



## sanekn

mogol said:


>


 
 it's the 395, i don't know just random strip on aliexpress,
  
 The agar remains kinda wet but it really helps to remove the impression and shells. Quite easy to split, but not as easy as the gelatine. So i'd say it's sturdy enough for what it's suppose to do


----------



## Xymordos

Made a 4 driver hybrid myself and had an interesting thing. On my desktop system (where I tuned it) it sounds excellent. On my ZX1 player, it sounds horrible - bass is loose, no treble, veiled....Did I make the IEM with too much impedance?


----------



## piotrus-g

xymordos said:


> Made a 4 driver hybrid myself and had an interesting thing. On my desktop system (where I tuned it) it sounds excellent. On my ZX1 player, it sounds horrible - bass is loose, no treble, veiled....Did I make the IEM with too much impedance?


 

 rather not enough.


----------



## Xymordos

piotrus-g said:


> rather not enough.


 
  
  My drivers setup was a dynamic + BK21610 + WBHC + WBFK30095. I would have thought that this combination would give enough impedance. Would it be due to the band pass filter on the WBHC?


----------



## piotrus-g

xymordos said:


> My drivers setup was a dynamic + BK21610 + WBHC + WBFK30095. I would have thought that this combination would give enough impedance. Would it be due to the band pass filter on the WBHC?


 

 You have probably too big impedance swing in the set up. I assume you have dynamic as a full range electrically? how many Ohm does it have?


----------



## tomekk

First set. The first pancake is always spoiled 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			








 
  
 UE600 driver, probably a Knowles BK, or something similar. First impressons - Yes they fit! It is true that a lot of things to do, to improve comfort, but I can finally test my thing. By the way, there is a tube 2/3 mm with a length of 14mm. Is this a good idea in single driver? 
  
  
 Further objects: impressions from the audiologist (the end of homemade impressions), time to finish with UV nail Gel (I still have to complete several sets of UV gel for skill), TF10 reshell etc...
  
 I'm not finished the polishing, but the weekend is over so... 
  

  
  

  
  
 Red/orange it is reshell. No dampers in both.


----------



## Xymordos

piotrus-g said:


> You have probably too big impedance swing in the set up. I assume you have dynamic as a full range electrically? how many Ohm does it have?


 
  
 The seller of the driver told me it was 16ohms. I used a low pass filter on the driver electrically, with a 10ohm resistor in series.


----------



## MuZo2

xymordos said:


> The seller of the driver told me it was 16ohms. I used a low pass filter on the driver electrically, with a 10ohm resistor in series.



Did you try using impedance adapters?


----------



## UNOE

GK-31732

How does this driver compare to 1964 drivers or UE? My friends building me some with this driver. Also how does the "HE" dual driver sound to others on the market?


----------



## piotrus-g

xymordos said:


> The seller of the driver told me it was 16ohms. I used a low pass filter on the driver electrically, with a 10ohm resistor in series.


 
 So you have a situation where you get 26 Ohms at the lows followed by highly inductive 100+ Ohms woofer and midrange drivers followed by very low impedance WBFK.


----------



## Xymordos

oh I see..what exact negative effects would that have? :/

need to remember not to do that next time..


----------



## piotrus-g

xymordos said:


> oh I see..what exact negative effects would that have? :/
> 
> need to remember not to do that next time..


 

 The one you observed, you get impedance mismatch with different sound sources.


----------



## Xymordos

piotrus-g said:


> The one you observed, you get impedance mismatch with different sound sources.


 
  
 Oh...is there a set pattern to this though? i.e. must have a very low output impedance? Or would it be completely random.


----------



## piotrus-g

xymordos said:


> Oh...is there a set pattern to this though? i.e. must have a very low output impedance? Or would it be completely random.


 

 Depends on crossover design and drivers. I would guess that in your case the muddy (more bassy) sound is result of high output impedance.


----------



## Xymordos

piotrus-g said:


> Depends on crossover design and drivers. I would guess that in your case the muddy (more bassy) sound is result of high output impedance.


 
  
 Interesting...ZX1 is a Class D amplifier, not sure how its output impedance works  
  
 My home amp is the HA5000 which is fine. I actually tested it on my friend's iPhone and it was also fine, quite odd.
  
 Dynamic 8mm - 26ohm
 BK21610 - 165ohm
 WBHC23910 - ~60ohm (resistor in parallel)
 WBFK30095 - 14.5ohm 
  
 I guess it is due to the BK driver then  Lesson learnt for future designs, thanks Piotrus!


----------



## piotrus-g

xymordos said:


> Interesting...ZX1 is a Class D amplifier, not sure how its output impedance works
> 
> My home amp is the HA5000 which is fine. I actually tested it on my friend's iPhone and it was also fine, quite odd.
> 
> ...


 

 It's not really that simple as crossover changes impedance curves quite a bit. So it's not just BK driver it's general implementation of all drivers
 I would advise you to just build impedance measuring rig (super cheap to build) and use it for future projects it will help you predict how design will behave with different sound sources.


----------



## Xymordos

piotrus-g said:


> It's not really that simple as crossover changes impedance curves quite a bit. So it's not just BK driver it's general implementation of all drivers
> I would advise you to just build impedance measuring rig (super cheap to build) and use it for future projects it will help you predict how design will behave with different sound sources.


 
  
 I actually have one - one was given to me when I bought the IEC711, but was too lazy to figure out how to use it :\ I better go learn about it haha
  
 Thanks for your help though!


----------



## piotrus-g

Hey Guys, there's been a lot of questions re CI-30120 which is not listed on KA website but it's widely available on taobao and aliexpress.
  
 We are working on some IEM that had those drivers so I figured I will share
 Rdc=16 Ohm
 Z= 28 Ohm @ 1kHz

  
 It has slightly different output than standard CI-22955. Measured with 16mmx2mmID tubing.

  
  
 CI-30120 seem to be more full-range driver with first peak moved to 3.5kHz
  
 Hope that helps anyone.


----------



## Xymordos

The CI30120 seems much less peaky than the CI22955.


----------



## ForceMajeure

Very much appreciated! Thank you for doing this. May I ask what iem is it from?
  
 Also I know you probably soldered the pads correctly, but I found out that if the CI pads are not soldered covering the hole they got under, they act kinda similarly to the FR you posted.


----------



## piotrus-g

forcemajeure said:


> Very much appreciated! Thank you for doing this. May I ask what iem is it from?
> 
> Also I know you probably soldered the pads correctly, but I found out that if the CI pads are not soldered covering the hole they got under, they act kinda similarly to the FR you posted.


 
 It's from very popular 10BA Chinese Hong Kong company Flagship 
  
 Do you mean the red or green plot? If you don't cover coil pads fully you essentially create a venting, but I think this wasn't the case here.


----------



## ForceMajeure

piotrus-g said:


> Do you mean the red or green plot? If you don't cover coil pads fully you essentially create a venting, but I think this wasn't the case here.


 
 Red plot. Yes, that's what I meant.


----------



## Xymordos

piotrus-g said:


> It's from very popular 10BA Chinese company Flagship
> 
> Do you mean the red or green plot? If you don't cover coil pads fully you essentially create a venting, but I think this wasn't the case here.


 
  
 Would you provide your comments on the sound of the unnamed flagship?


----------



## piotrus-g

xymordos said:


> Would you provide your comments on the sound of the unnamed flagship?


 
 I can for universal fit version cause I haven't listened to the custom unit. They use slightly different drivers and different filtering. from memory they were pretty rich, full bodied sounding IEMs, good extension on both ends. It's like a W shaped signature, overall it's ok sounding IEM if you like thick notes but at the same time some edge on higher frequencies.


----------



## Xymordos

Different drivers for universals and customs? That's the first one I've heard like this :O
  
 Thanks for your impressions though!


----------



## piotrus-g

xymordos said:


> Different drivers for universals and customs? That's the first one I've heard like this :O
> 
> Thanks for your impressions though!


 

 Yup the universal has normal 22955 CIs


----------



## Xymordos

piotrus-g said:


> Yup the universal has normal 22955 CIs


 
  
 Interesting...were their frequency response the same?


----------



## Trying2Learn

xymordos said:


> I had an interesting experience when testing my new IEMs. I made them with the new UE style connectors. I first tested them using my original UERM cable and then I tried them with a mic cable I bought off Lunarcables. Last I tested them with a copper upgrade cable.
> 
> Assuming the copper cable is the normal frequency response, the UE cable resulted in a 2db frequency response dip from 3kHz up to 6db dip at 6kHz. The mic cable also resulted in a dip but was half that of the UE cable.
> 
> ...


Did you volume match?


----------



## Xymordos

trying2learn said:


> Did you volume match?


 
  
 Yes - my sound card for testing this has no volume control  I think it is due to the cable resistance is slightly larger


----------



## tomekk

Sorry I'm not an expert on the subject. How to correctly adjust the volume in the frequency test? Set to 0 dB in direct connection from vol out to mic in in sound card? (blue line)


----------



## Trying2Learn

xymordos said:


> Yes - my sound card for testing this has no volume control  I think it is due to the cable resistance is slightly larger


That doesn't mean you volume matched them.


----------



## Trying2Learn

xymordos said:


> Yes - my sound card for testing this has no volume control  I think it is due to the cable resistance is slightly larger


----------



## Xymordos

trying2learn said:


>


 
  
 I see what you mean. Unfortunately I can't volume match them. The sound card was made purely for measurement purposes and doesn't have a volume control. Though through listening tests I can confirm that the sound gets much worse no matter what volume I put it at.


----------



## UNOE

unoe said:


> GK-31732
> 
> How does this driver compare to 1964 drivers or UE? My friends building me some with this driver. Also how does the "HE" dual driver sound to others on the market?


 
 I would like to bump this question...


----------



## ForceMajeure

unoe said:


> I would like to bump this question...


 
 Don't know what does 1964 drivers or UE drivers mean as every iem have different drivers and configuration.
  
 The *‏ ‏‎*HE-31751-000‎‏ is a combination of CI and ED with premade crossover driver sold by Knowles you can find frequency response without damping here 
 http://www.knowles.com/eng/content/download/5919/103115/version/6/file/HE-31751-000.pdf
  
 The*‏‎*‏ ‏‎GK-31732-000‎‏ is another combination of CI and TWFK with premade crossover  http://www.knowles.com/eng/content/download/5920/103130/version/6/file/GK-31732-000.pdf​  
 Knowing the ED and TWFK you can assume that the HE (with the ED driver) will have a higher SPL around 2.5khz so mids in that range will be a bit more forward/present in comparison to the GK that will probably have a bit more sparkle at 5khz .


----------



## Xymordos

Just measured the impedance of the hybrid - not sure if I setup the Limp program correctly though.
  
  


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!






  
 Edit: Calibrated correctly...the impedance on the WBFK is nearly 0..


----------



## UNOE

forcemajeure said:


> unoe said:
> 
> 
> > I would like to bump this question...
> ...




I understand all that. I'm just wondering what price range other CIEM manufactures would charge for something that has similar sound quality to HE and GK? Or if anyone knows if they compare to any models from UE or 1964 strictly from sound quality comparison, not comparing sound sigtures.


----------



## piotrus-g

xymordos said:


> Just measured the impedance of the hybrid - not sure if I setup the Limp program correctly though.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 That's super strange graph for impedance plot, but I was sort of right about the impedance swing.


----------



## ForceMajeure

xymordos said:


> Just measured the impedance of the hybrid - not sure if I setup the Limp program correctly though.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 something looks wrong here


----------



## ForceMajeure

unoe said:


> I understand all that. I'm just wondering what price range other CIEM manufactures would charge for something that has similar sound quality to HE and GK? Or if anyone knows if they compare to any models from UE or 1964 strictly from sound quality comparison, not comparing sound sigtures.


 
 UE5 pro had similar drivers to the HE no idea what they used to charge for it
 1964ears v2 also


----------



## Xymordos

piotrus-g said:


> That's super strange graph for impedance plot, but I was sort of right about the impedance swing.


 
  
 I'm guessing this should be correct as my UERM impedance graph looks the same as the one Rin Choi posted on his blog.


----------



## ForceMajeure

xymordos said:


> I'm guessing this should be correct as my UERM impedance graph looks the same as the one Rin Choi posted on his blog.


 
 When you connected your uerm to the jig an measured it with limp you got similar results as this?


----------



## Xymordos

forcemajeure said:


> When you connected your uerm to the jig an measured it with limp you got similar results as this?


 
  
 Yup, just like that.
  
 It's probably due to me using high impedance bass drivers. 
  
 Edit: isn't the UERM impedance swing even larger than my IEM? o.O


----------



## ForceMajeure

xymordos said:


> Yup, just like that.
> 
> It's probably due to me using high impedance bass drivers.
> 
> Edit: isn't the UERM impedance swing even larger than my IEM? o.O


 
 can you explain again your config and crossover
  
 Dynamic 8mm - 26ohm
 BK21610 - 165ohm
 WBHC23910 - ~60ohm (resistor in parallel)
 WBFK30095 - 14.5ohm


----------



## Xymordos

forcemajeure said:


> can you explain again your config and crossover
> 
> Dynamic 8mm - 26ohm
> BK21610 - 165ohm
> ...


 
  
 Dynamic 8mm titanium - 10ohm + 33uf low pass
 BK21610 - 22uf high pass, 10uf + 20ohm + 10uf low pass
 WBHC23910 - 1uf low pass, 2.2uf + 100ohm + 2.2uf high pass
 WBFK30095 - 0.1uf high pass
  
 Tested this config pretty much by ear  It's likely a poor config.


----------



## ForceMajeure

xymordos said:


> Dynamic 8mm titanium - 10ohm + 33uf low pass
> BK21610 - 22uf high pass, 10uf + 20ohm + 10uf low pass
> WBHC23910 - 1uf low pass, 2.2uf + 100ohm + 2.2uf high pass
> WBFK30095 - 0.1uf high pass
> ...


 
 oh wow haha even JHaudio doesn't do such complicated config with his inductors...
 May be your computer out have a different output impedance, have you tried to listen to it on your phone or another source? The zx1 is a weird dap sometimes.
 Also the fact that you used band pass filters on those high impedance driver means, that they will now have a much lower impedance overall as you are using a smaller part of their frequency range, now it all depends if it's in their resonance range (higher peak of their impedance).
  
 Try to measure their frequency from the zx1 and from the computer and compare.


----------



## Xymordos

forcemajeure said:


> oh wow haha even JHaudio doesn't do such complicated config with his inductors...
> May be your computer out have a different output impedance, have you tried to listen to it on your phone or another source? The zx1 is a weird dap sometimes.


 
  
 Haha, just wanted to try something more fun  But guess it didn't work out..
  
 I actually tested it on 2 other sound cards. They sounded fine, just like my HA5000 (which has output impedance of 0.1ohms). However, on any phone/computer I tested they sounded absolutely horrendous. Actually the computer out I can barely hear anything else except the bass.
  
 Seems like the class D amps don't work with these..


----------



## piotrus-g

xymordos said:


> Edit: isn't the UERM impedance swing even larger than my IEM? o.O


 
   
Nope. Your highest point is 24 and lowest around 1 Ohms = that's 24:1

 UERM has 66-68 to 8 so it's 8,5:1
  
 It's also very complex crossover, probably more complex than it actually needs to be. 0.1uF on WBFK gives you cut off frequency at around 21kHz so you may want to use bigger cap.


----------



## Xymordos

piotrus-g said:


> Nope. Your highest point is 24 and lowest around 1 Ohms = that's 24:1
> UERM has 66-68 to 8 so it's 8,5:1
> 
> It's also very complex crossover, probably more complex than it actually needs to be. 0.1uF on WBFK gives you cut off frequency at around 21kHz so you may want to use bigger cap.


 
  
 I see...I didn't know it was the ratio that counts 
  
 I did try 0.2uf but that brings the ~6kHz peak higher than what I'd like it to be unfortunately.


----------



## UNOE

forcemajeure said:


> unoe said:
> 
> 
> > I understand all that. I'm just wondering what price range other CIEM manufactures would charge for something that has similar sound quality to HE and GK? Or if anyone knows if they compare to any models from UE or 1964 strictly from sound quality comparison, not comparing sound sigtures.
> ...




So I guessing the GK are similar to UE7.


----------



## piotrus-g

xymordos said:


> I see...I didn't know it was the ratio that counts


 
 Well that's sort of my way of looking at it, like obviously UE has bigger difference but I would assume, most amps will be able to driver 68 and 8 Ohms pretty well while in case of your IEMs you start with pretty normal impedance level and go to nearly short.


----------



## Xymordos

piotrus-g said:


> Well that's sort of my way of looking at it, like obviously UE has bigger difference but I would assume, most amps will be able to driver 68 and 8 Ohms pretty well while in case of your IEMs you start with pretty normal impedance level and go to nearly short.


 
  
 Do you know how I managed to get such ridiculously low impedance with my crossover T_T
  
 You are right definitely - the impedance is too low so it mismatches most amps output impedance.


----------



## ForceMajeure

unoe said:


> So I guessing the GK are similar to UE7.


 
 no, UE7 uses 2 CI drivers among the drivers it uses, it's another category altogether...unfortunately you cannot compare neither sound or driver count the same way.


----------



## piotrus-g

xymordos said:


> Do you know how I managed to get such ridiculously low impedance with my crossover T_T


 
 Crossover


----------



## ForceMajeure

I was curious regarding 2 different SWFK drivers. The 2nd one is used in a few known CIEMs...
SWFK-31736
SWFK-32255
 On paper they look very similar having the same impedance and DCR and almost the same SPL (0.5db difference).
  
 Digging further it looked like the 32255 is the same as the 31736 but have an internal damper already placed inside its spout
 Basically you can see the effect in the datasheets FR and looking at this more precise internal view 
 vs the regular 31736 front view

 Hope this is useful for some of you.


----------



## FUYU

forcemajeure said:


> I was curious regarding 2 different SWFK drivers the 2nd one is used in a few known CIEMs...
> SWFK-31736
> SWFK-32255
> On paper they look very similar having the same impedance and DCR
> ...




Very useful. I thought on starting with a CL + SWFK for my first project. Any experience with either of the SWFKs?


----------



## ForceMajeure

fuyu said:


> Very useful. I thought on starting with a CL + SWFK for my first project. Any experience with either of the SWFKs?


 
 As the info I posted, they basically are the same but the damped one will have a lower peak at ~3.5khz by a significant margin and at ~7khz...So using the right damper directly on the spout on the 31736 you should get similar behavior. I don't know the damper value but IMO should be green or higher.
  
 Regarding the config you are choosing it is doable as long as you match them with the right resistor in front. and use the CI for it's mids and not only bass. But it's not an easy task as mids could be a bit lacking depending on your preferences.


----------



## Xymordos

Interesting...the 32257 would be much easier to build with. I get really annoyed at the WBFK/SWFK's 6kHz peak normally.


----------



## Xymordos

piotrus-g said:


> Crossover


 
  
 Would I be able to fix it some how, such as adding a resistor to the WBFK?


----------



## piotrus-g

xymordos said:


> Would I be able to fix it some how, such as adding a resistor to the WBFK?


 
 Dunno my friend. You have measuring rig, play with different setups and find what works and what doesn't


----------



## Xymordos

piotrus-g said:


> Dunno my friend. You have measuring rig, play with different setups and find what works and what doesn't


 
  
 Haha just wondering if there was a general way to increase the impedance of a driver  Coz I sealed the top and don't want to open it unless I know I can fix it.


----------



## piotrus-g

xymordos said:


> Haha just wondering if there was a general way to increase the impedance of a driver  Coz I sealed the top and don't want to open it unless I know I can fix it.


 

 Build a second one


----------



## Xymordos

piotrus-g said:


> Build a second one


 
  
 LOL I couldn't resist and opened it up and messed around. I removed the band pass filters and made them a regular low pass and high pass and everything is normal


----------



## piotrus-g

xymordos said:


> LOL I couldn't resist and opened it up and messed around. I removed the band pass filters and made them a regular low pass and high pass and everything is normal


 

 You mean normal like it's good now, or nothing has changed?


----------



## Xymordos

piotrus-g said:


> You mean normal like it's good now, or nothing has changed?


 
  
 The impedance swing is normal now. The impedance is still quite low. But it sounds normal on the ZX1 and my HA5000. I think the sound got worse though  The frequency response curve didn't change that much, but the sound did.


----------



## rjcruiz25

New Collection
 Hand Made SR Series knowles


----------



## Xymordos

Ohh looks nice! Did you print the checkers on paper? 
  
 How does the SR sound?


----------



## ForceMajeure

Sometimes we only see what's pop up in our subscriptions and miss out some interesting thread.
 Here is a guy going for a DIY Planar Magnetic drivers/headphones.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/836933/build-log-exploration-and-experimentation-with-my-diy-planar-magnetic-drivers-headphones#post_13275568


----------



## Cutty

Would you recommend a single ED or BK for making a single BA universal?


----------



## flynhawaiian

I was thinking about making a 12 driver iem, but I’m not sure which of the drivers to use.  I was thinking about using the Knowles FH series.  I’m not sure if the RAB series is better.  I’m looking for experience.
  
 Thanks!


----------



## nocchi

A friend of mine gave me his spare ED30761, are they full range? Just want to play around with these and make a single ba iem of it.


----------



## piotrus-g

xymordos said:


> The CI30120 seems much less peaky than the CI22955.


 

 So I got CI-30120 spread sheet which sort of confirms my findings in fr difference.
  
 PS: the spec sheet says 41 Ohms at 500Hz so I don't know why my measurement is off.


----------



## ForceMajeure

cutty said:


> Would you recommend a single ED or BK for making a single BA universal?


 
 ED will be the better one.


flynhawaiian said:


> I was thinking about making a 12 driver iem, but I’m not sure which of the drivers to use.  I was thinking about using the Knowles FH series.  I’m not sure if the RAB series is better.  I’m looking for experience.
> 
> Thanks!


 
 Why not 18 drivers? More seriously though, you should try getting the right sound with less drivers. Making a 12 drivers IEM is not just stacking BA's together and hope it'll work out. 
  
  



nocchi said:


> A friend of mine gave me his spare ED30761, are they full range? Just want to play around with these and make a single ba iem of it.


 
 They are kinda full range. In case it doesn't work out for you, run a search in this thread about this driver. it has been discussed already and you might find a better solution...


----------



## Xymordos

piotrus-g said:


> So I got CI-30120 spread sheet which sort of confirms my findings in fr difference.
> 
> PS: the spec sheet says 41 Ohms at 500Hz so I don't know why my measurement is off.


 
  
 Let me try playing around with it to see if I can get a good sound. Less peaky makes it easier for me  
  
 Is there a CI with better bass than the 22955?


----------



## piotrus-g

xymordos said:


> Is there a CI with better bass than the 22955?


 
 Well the 30120 would appear to be one.


----------



## UNOE

piotrus-g said:


> xymordos said:
> 
> 
> > Is there a CI with better bass than the 22955?
> ...


 
 Can you add 30120 to GK-31732-000?


----------



## piotrus-g

unoe said:


> Can you add 30120 to GK-31732-000?


 

 why not? still depends on how you "add" it to GK


----------



## UNOE

piotrus-g said:


> unoe said:
> 
> 
> > Can you add 30120 to GK-31732-000?
> ...




I know nothing so open to suggestions.


----------



## Cutty

What dampers would make the ED sound neutralish and analytical?


----------



## tomekk

cutty said:


> Would you recommend a single ED or BK for making a single BA universal?


 
  
 Each driver is best to do the first project 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
  


cutty said:


> What dampers would make the ED sound neutralish and analytical?


 
  
 No dampers.  or try white.


----------



## Xymordos

Depends on which ED you use, and no dampers on it probably wouldn't sound too good...


----------



## Xymordos

piotrus-g said:


> Well the 30120 would appear to be one.


 
  
 Just realized this has no center tap, was hoping to test out a config I had in mind using the center tap


----------



## Shilohsjustice

I'm cooking up some investments in the kitchen tonight, I'm off tomorrow and plan on building all day long. I just got some fresh Krystaloid today and I'm excited !!


----------



## piotrus-g

xymordos said:


> Just realized this has no center tap, was hoping to test out a config I had in mind using the center tap


 i feel you my friend. I already asked KA but there's no 3tap version of this driver.


----------



## Xymordos

piotrus-g said:


> i feel you my friend. I already asked KA but there's no 3tap version of this driver.


 
  
 Darn. I tried the center tap of the 22955 but it doesn't seem to work too well. I guess I'll have to settle with fiddling around with the 22955 then


----------



## piotrus-g

xymordos said:


> Darn. I tried the center tap of the 22955 but it doesn't seem to work too well. I guess I'll have to settle with fiddling around with the 22955 then


 

 How do you mean? CI via center tap sounds virtually the same, you just decrease its impedance


----------



## Xymordos

piotrus-g said:


> How do you mean? CI via center tap sounds virtually the same, you just decrease its impedance


 
  
 Was trying to do a similar config to the UERM, using 2 CI22955 through center taps, but as a universal the bass is too tight. I was able to adjust this using 1 CI22955 but with 2, it was more difficult.


----------



## Squirg

unoe said:


> Can you add 30120 to GK-31732-000?


 
 I added a CI-30120 to a GK and it is deffinately a "warm" sound !  All I did was solder 30120 leads (same polarity) to the GK an added a 4400 ohm damper.  I little muddy but totally works...


----------



## UNOE

squirg said:


> unoe said:
> 
> 
> > Can you add 30120 to GK-31732-000?
> ...




Your using 4400 on CI? What dampers are you using on the GK highs and lows. I might build just what you recommended here if you say it improves the GK lows, but remains clear.


----------



## piotrus-g

squirg said:


> I added a CI-30120 to a GK and it is deffinately a "warm" sound !  All I did was solder 30120 leads (same polarity) to the GK an added a 4400 ohm damper.  I little muddy but totally works...


 

 Cool! Add some resistor to fix muddiness. 30120 is only 16 ohms.


----------



## UNOE

Can you all help me with a recipe this will be my first build I want to use theses 2 together. I don't know what dampers to use or resisters.


----------



## UNOE

piotrus-g said:


> squirg said:
> 
> 
> > I added a CI-30120 to a GK and it is deffinately a "warm" sound !  All I did was solder 30120 leads (same polarity) to the GK an added a 4400 ohm damper.  I little muddy but totally works...
> ...


 

 What resistor would you recommend?


----------



## piotrus-g

unoe said:


> What resistor would you recommend?


 10-20 Ohm should be enough


----------



## tatster

Had a go at mixing my first try Gelatin/Glycerin mix ready to make my first shells.

I used Dr Oektker Gelatin as that is readily available from supermarket in UK. It's a bit like sugar grains before mixing.

Is it too dark?










Sent from my Z using Tapatalk


----------



## myemaildw

Anyone recommend a low subbass ba and a sparkle one thanks


----------



## Xymordos

Saw the Kumitate Labs' Raden design and thought it looked very nice, so I made a similar looking one


----------



## Squirg

Hey Guys!  Luke at Vibro Labs is doing a Facebook Livestream on DIY earphones tomorrow (Sunday) at 3pm EST.  He did one last week and it was pretty informative.  It sounds like this is going to be a weekly thing and dive deeper on the guts of CIEM's.  I'll see you there!


----------



## Squirg

Dude!  That looks amazing!  Where did you get those UE connectors?  What is your process for the faceplate (if you don't mind me asking)?
  
 Quote:


xymordos said:


> Saw the Kumitate Labs' Raden design and thought it looked very nice, so I made a similar looking one


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Hello all, I just wanted to pass on another trick that works well. Sometimes it gets really tight in shells and you need to place some precision pointed uv to help hold and secure components. I bought some blunt syringes off Amazon and they work great. 

I've seen videos where 64 audio used them so I thought I would give them a try on my last few builds and it works amazing! Nothing worse than spending a few hours on shells and placing components to make a mess in the shell with material getting all over the place.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

squirg said:


> Hey Guys!  Luke at Vibro Labs is doing a Facebook Livestream on DIY earphones tomorrow (Sunday) at 3pm EST.  He did one last week and it was pretty informative.  It sounds like this is going to be a weekly thing and dive deeper on the guts of CIEM's.  I'll see you there!





He has last weeks posted on his Facebook page as well for anyone that missed it. I agree ☝:tone1: it was informative. I've read a lot of the reddit posts on DIY monitors and they are behind as compared to this forum. I wonder how interactive tomorrow's Facebook stream will be.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Here is a pic of my latest build, 3 driver universal, oil slick color.


----------



## jbr1971

shilohsjustice said:


> Hello all, I just wanted to pass on another trick that works well. Sometimes it gets really tight in shells and you need to place some precision pointed uv to help hold and secure components. I bought some blunt syringes off Amazon and they work great.
> 
> I've seen videos where 64 audio used them so I thought I would give them a try on my last few builds and it works amazing! Nothing worse than spending a few hours on shells and placing components to make a mess in the shell with material getting all over the place.


 
  
 Bondic is great for precision spots as well, and for everything else. Great stuff.


----------



## JorgePantalones

shilohsjustice said:


> Hello all, I just wanted to pass on another trick that works well. Sometimes it gets really tight in shells and you need to place some precision pointed uv to help hold and secure components. I bought some blunt syringes off Amazon and they work great.
> 
> I've seen videos where 64 audio used them so I thought I would give them a try on my last few builds and it works amazing! Nothing worse than spending a few hours on shells and placing components to make a mess in the shell with material getting all over the place.


 
  
 Now I'm positive this is addictive.
  
  
  
 Seriously though, great tip.  I immediately had a "why didn't I think of that" reaction.


----------



## Squirg

jorgepantalones said:


> Now I'm positive this is addictive.
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously though, great tip.  I immediately had a "why didn't I think of that" reaction.


 
  


shilohsjustice said:


> Hello all, I just wanted to pass on another trick that works well. Sometimes it gets really tight in shells and you need to place some precision pointed uv to help hold and secure components. I bought some blunt syringes off Amazon and they work great.
> 
> I've seen videos where 64 audio used them so I thought I would give them a try on my last few builds and it works amazing! Nothing worse than spending a few hours on shells and placing components to make a mess in the shell with material getting all over the place.


 
 What material are you using for internal stuff?  I'm struggling with this right now.  Fotoplast leaves that damn inhibition layer that runs, and the cyno I'm using leaves a film.  After electronics are in, you can't do glycerin to cure....  Other than getting a nitro setup...


----------



## Squirg

jbr1971 said:


> Bondic is great for precision spots as well, and for everything else. Great stuff.


 
 I just ordered Bondic! Hoping it does the trick!  Does it leave the dreaded sticky layer?


----------



## Xymordos

shilohsjustice said:


> Here is a pic of my latest build, 3 driver universal, oil slick color.


 
  
 That color looks just like the 846 :O 
  
 BTW - great tip. I should get some syringes too. Only thing is that I would cover them. It seems like the resin hardens quite fast even under regular light.


----------



## Xymordos

I bought them here: https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.14.276.Xrvii6&id=530183479069&ns=1&abbucket=6#detail
 However, the pins are the other way round...I had to knock them out, flip them over, and hammer them back in. Took a quick search and also found: https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.14.82.Xrvii6&id=533822246460&ns=1&abbucket=6#detail
  
 Not sure if those pins are the right way round.
  
 The black part of the face plate is actually wood. Its some really really hard black colored wood which I probably won't use again since - 1) the wood grain doesn't show at all...and 2) that thing took ages to sand through. Much longer than the other wood I used. 
  
 After sanding the wood and gluing it on, I applied a very thin layer of the UV lacquer, and sprinkled some gold and rainbow colored glitter (0.2mm diameter), and let it cure under the UV light. The lines are made from thin shell paper, like this: 
  
 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1z10.1-c-s.w137644-15902957528.48.P4dbAO&id=23735992004
  
 I used a cutter to cut thin lines, and sand them until they are the right width and thickness (needs to be very thin). Then I arranged them on the shell and glued them on using the UV lacquer (as it is easier to apply than the UV resin). Then when everything is set, I coated the top with the UV resin.


----------



## jbr1971

squirg said:


> I just ordered Bondic! Hoping it does the trick!  Does it leave the dreaded sticky layer?


 
  
 No, it dries completely after 10-15 seconds. One of the reasons I love it.
  
 While it is uv cured, I believe it is a very different formulation. More of a glue than shell material.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

squirg said:


> What material are you using for internal stuff?  I'm struggling with this right now.  Fotoplast leaves that damn inhibition layer that runs, and the cyno I'm using leaves a film.  After electronics are in, you can't do glycerin to cure....  Other than getting a nitro setup...




I use Fotoplast, I bought a "scorpion" flash light a couple years ago. It is a 395-410nm uv flashlight used for finding scorpions. It works well for spot curing areas in the shell where you need additional material around tubing and drivers. I haven't had issues with it running in the shell when I spot cute it. 

I use this when I'm doing spot cures and for the faceplates. It works awesome, just like a professional wand. 

Here is the light I purchased right from my Amazon history.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

I was working on some sparkles tonight for a co-worker, single driver UM Pro 10 clone. These are why I was cooking up some krystaloid in the kitchen a couple days ago. Here's another tip for those buying the krystaloid from lightning enterprises. DON'T heat up in the microwave, buy a double boiler like the one in the pic I posted a few days ago, perfect investments every time without bubbles!!!!! I fill a pot with water so it's touching the bottom of the second pot and boil, it won't overheat your Krystaloid and all the bubbles work themselves out and I just stir it occasionally, I'll turn the heat down and let the krystaloid cool enough to pour over my molds. 





This is what I mean about the double boiler, I think I paid $9 dollars for it and it works better than the 10second microwave method.


----------



## Cutty

shilohsjustice said:


> I was working on some sparkles tonight for a co-worker, single driver UM Pro 10 clone. These are why I was cooking up some krystaloid in the kitchen a couple days ago. Here's another tip for those buying the krystaloid from lightning enterprises. DON'T heat up in the microwave, buy a double boiler like the one in the pic I posted a few days ago, perfect investments every time without bubbles!!!!! I fill a pot with water so it's touching the bottom of the second pot and boil, it won't overheat your Krystaloid and all the bubbles work themselves out and I just stir it occasionally, I'll turn the heat down and let the krystaloid cool enough to pour over my molds.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Looks great! what driver/damper combination did you use?


----------



## ForceMajeure

jorgepantalones said:


> FWIW,
> 
> *Tubing Size    Inside/Outside Diam*
> #12                   2.16/3.18 mm
> ...


 
 The Tubing sizes are always useful to have.
 This was already posted here, but the following chart add the #9,#16 tube sizes


----------



## Shilohsjustice

cutty said:


> Looks great! what driver/damper combination did you use?




Knowles BK-28507 and a gray damper.


----------



## MuZo2

Is it SWFK in AAW W900?


----------



## Andrumgt

Fresh!


----------



## tomekk (Jun 18, 2019)

Hi. (Still) UV nail gel guy here 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Second build: 3 way, first dual bore design, diy sockets. 



 I used modified Shilohsjustice config. Why BK? I don't have any other test drivers now. But BK is not bad in this setup.


----------



## ForceMajeure

muzo2 said:


> Is it SWFK in AAW W900?


 
 Yes should be X2 twfk's and X2 swfk's in there. They also have a wide bore opening on the customs afaik.


----------



## Xymordos

I wonder what they used to measure the W900s to get that graph


----------



## bartzky

I wonder if it's a 10dB or 5dB scale...


----------



## ForceMajeure

bartzky said:


> I wonder if it's a 10dB or 5dB scale...


 
 It's a 10db scale looking at the 74db mark it can only be 10 db


xymordos said:


> I wonder what they used to measure the W900s to get that graph


 
 probably IEC711


----------



## bartzky

forcemajeure said:


> It's a 10db scale looking at the 74db mark it can only be 10 db



You're probably right, but it might be 12 dB as well  It doesn't make much sense to publish graphs without proper labeling.


----------



## MuZo2

forcemajeure said:


> Yes should be X2 twfk's and X2 swfk's in there. They also have a wide bore opening on the customs afaik.


 
 They plan to add some custom tuning there, so not a horn.


----------



## Xymordos

But the IEC711 doesn't measure to 40kHz right...? Even after dropping 30-40db.


----------



## bartzky

IEC711 is only specified up to 10kHz. So the coupler might measure beyond that but will not be accurate.
Furthermore you shouldn't care to much about what's going on from 10 - 20 kHz, not to mention 20 - 40 kHz.


----------



## SVTong

So after reading through 400+ pages over the last month, I got all of my supplies together and tried to make some shells last night.  I didn't successfully make any usable ones, but I learned a lot and I have enough gelatin left to try again tonight.  My one major question is how do I get the faceplate rim to cure thicker and have the canal cure less?  My canals came out completely solid every time, and the rim was paper thin.  Should I trim back my UV blocker to exact shape of the faceplate and put that side facing the LEDs?  I'm using clear gel nail polish and gelatin in a small nail curing "toaster oven" as my wife calls it.
  
 Also, after my second attempt, my gelatin completely melted - is this normal?  I'm assuming it's because of the proximity to the LEDs.


----------



## MuZo2

What curing station are you using and how do you place the mold inside it ? Also seems your curing station is emitting lot of heat.


----------



## SVTong

It's a little nail curing station called a SensatioNail.  I made my molds in little prescription measuring cups.  The cups do not block UV, so I leave the molds in them and put the whole cup into the curing station opening.  It's a pretty tight fit though, so the cup actually rests on the LEDs and touches the reflector on top as well.
  
 Edit: Found it:
 http://www.sensationail.com/p/lamps/led-lamp/
  
 Although the version I have is not USB, and the timers are 30 seconds and one minute.


----------



## jbr1971

svtong said:


> It's a little nail curing station called a SensatioNail.  I made my molds in little prescription measuring cups.  The cups do not block UV, so I leave the molds in them and put the whole cup into the curing station opening.  It's a pretty tight fit though, so the cup actually rests on the LEDs and touches the reflector on top as well.
> 
> Edit: Found it:
> http://www.sensationail.com/p/lamps/led-lamp/
> ...


 
  
 Try taking the molds out of the cups and keep at least an inch or two away from the lights. I have found that when I am doing the final cure in glycerin in small glasses the glass gets really warm (almost hot). That will hopefully take care of the melting gelatin.
  
 If I am picturing the size of the unit properly from their website, it does not look very deep.
  
 With the solid canals, the only idea that comes to mind is to place the mold with the canal side turned outwards. Hopefully that will negate some of the uv hitting the canals.
  
 I had issues with thin walls at the top of mine and had to do the following:
  
 - cure as usual but for 10-12 seconds less
 - removed the piece I had on top blocking uv from getting to the top opening
 - cure for 10-12 seconds
  
 This led to better wall thickness at the top, but a very thin, flexible cured layer on the top of the mold. I then cut that layer out to be able to pour out the left over Fotoplast.
  
 Hope this helps.


----------



## MuZo2

It has led only on top?  try placing the leds on side so flip the curing unit on its side and rotate it after few seconds 2-4 times.


----------



## SVTong

Thanks guys - I'll give both methods a try tonight.
  
 The cups I'm using are plastic so I didn't think that they would trap a lot of heat, but I'll pull the molds out and try that too.


----------



## UNOE

When you use a damper on a woofer.  I understand that it changes the frequency that is delivered.  But does it also lesson the overall volume output of the woofer?  Or is it only changing the range?


----------



## MuZo2

unoe said:


> When you use a damper on a woofer.  I understand that it changes the frequency that is delivered.  But does it also lesson the overall volume output of the woofer?  Or is it only changing the range?


----------



## UNOE

muzo2 said:


> unoe said:
> 
> 
> > When you use a damper on a woofer.  I understand that it changes the frequency that is delivered.  But does it also lesson the overall volume output of the woofer?  Or is it only changing the range?




Based on that why doesn't everyone use yellow damper on all woofers


----------



## Squirg

Hey Guys.  Any idea what's going on here?  This is a Sonion 3800 with 15ohm in series with red damper and Sonion 2389 with 4.7uf in series with white damper.  My only guess is that in the green line, the red filter is damaged and not doing anything...but would it cause THAT much difference?
  
 It's driving me bananas!  HELP!


----------



## ForceMajeure

squirg said:


> Hey Guys.  Any idea what's going on here?  This is a Sonion 3800 with 15ohm in series with red damper and Sonion 2389 with 4.7uf in series with white damper.  My only guess is that in the green line, the red filter is damaged and not doing anything...but would it cause THAT much difference?
> 
> It's driving me bananas!  HELP!


 
 Those graphs are left and right of the same iem?


----------



## ForceMajeure

Looks like there are other combo drivers solutions from Sonion also. I thought there was only the 1723
  
 But there are 2 others 
  
 26­E25WT02/9 
 http://www.sonion.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/26-E25WT02_9-3107331.pdf
  
 23­E25WT01/9
 http://www.sonion.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/23-E25WT01_9-3200850.pdf


----------



## MrNick

I hate to ask...Is anyone in this thread accepting money for these creations? Or willing to make customs out of universals for a price and a complete release of any liability as it may very well destroy the iems? I simply do not have the resources or the home to perform these really awesome techniques. It's a long shot but I'd thought I'd ask to see if anyone was willing/able. I subbed when I realized I wanted to make my IT03 custom and add a full range driver for thicker sound.

Super inspired by some of the superb work here.


----------



## SVTong

Take that inspiration and channel it to try making your own!  It cost me $50 to make my first pair (plus the donor Shures for the drivers), and you learn some new skills along the way.  Well worth it, IMO.


----------



## Squirg

NO MORE MISTERTAO!!!  There is a message when you log onto the site today saying they are shutting their doors due to new Chinese Govt. Regs.!  What a bummer...
  
 Is there a similar site that any of you guys use?!


----------



## MuZo2

https://www.bhiner.com bit expensive.


----------



## ziixtreme

Made a 5 Drivers IEM here is the graph. Can still be improved, because DIY's main objective is to beat stuffs in the market.

 Ignore the yellow line


----------



## MuZo2

What drivers did you use?


----------



## UNOE

Can someone lead me to some cheap options for testing build frequency curves.


----------



## MuZo2

Build your own 2cc coupler. Do a search on this thread.


----------



## ziixtreme

muzo2 said:


> What drivers did you use?


 
 22955+33AP007+31736 boy it sounded good once you get the crossover right.... Took me some time to get there... Not really satisfied yet as I feel it can still be better. SWFK-31736 is really super tricky to deal with, by far the hardest driver to tune. By the way, made a cheapo 2 drivers over the night and it sounded good as well. 22955 pairs well with 2389.


----------



## ziixtreme

Where can I buy silver color estron wire or litz wire for the drivers? The one that I use currently same with fitear but it's too stiff, very difficult to bend and tend to break off if bent too much......


----------



## shdh

bartzky said:


> Furthermore you shouldn't care to much about what's going on from 10 - 20 kHz, not to mention 20 - 40 kHz.


 
 Could you elaborate why you shouldn't care too much about 10KHz to 20KHz?


----------



## MuZo2

shdh said:


> Could you elaborate why you shouldn't care too much about 10KHz to 20KHz?



I think what he meant was about the coupler & measurement.


----------



## shdh

muzo2 said:


> I think what he meant was about the coupler & measurement.


 
 Indeed. To OP's point, even though the coupler is only rated up to 10KHz, discounting those frequencies provides no data for the upper range.
  
 So what are the alternatives to measuring those frequencies (10KHz to 20KHz)?


----------



## Xymordos

ziixtreme said:


> 22955+33AP007+31736 boy it sounded good once you get the crossover right.... Took me some time to get there... Not really satisfied yet as I feel it can still be better. SWFK-31736 is really super tricky to deal with, by far the hardest driver to tune. By the way, made a cheapo 2 drivers over the night and it sounded good as well. 22955 pairs well with 2389.


 
  
 That's almost like the Fitear 334 config, if you swapped the SWFK with an ED


----------



## myemaildw

anyone wants them for free? These are bas from phantom master 4 items, with some resistors. Two pairs, and one extra, haven't got idea weather they are the same or have differrent audibly. Just need to cover 2.15 euro for postage


----------



## MuZo2

I will take them.


----------



## Xymordos

That looks surprisingly like the sony drivers


----------



## bartzky

shdh said:


> Could you elaborate why you shouldn't care too much about 10KHz to 20KHz?


 


muzo2 said:


> I think what he meant was about the coupler & measurement.


 
 For one thing the coupler: it just isn't accurate above 10kHz, so it can only show a tendency. Additionally there usually isn't much music information above 10kHz, so I really wouldn't give to much weight to this area.


----------



## piotrus-g

xymordos said:


> That looks surprisingly like the sony drivers


 
 Haven't someone posted an info-graphic for some new BA driver few months ago? I think it was called something like HD balanced aramture or something... there were bunch of different set ups for bass, highs are fullrange, they looked exactly like those.


----------



## omgflyingbanana

Anyone know how to solder the armatures on this crossover? Should I put solder on one side, position the armature on the other side and then just melt the solder?


----------



## Xymordos

piotrus-g said:


> Haven't someone posted an info-graphic for some new BA driver few months ago? I think it was called something like HD balanced aramture or something... there were bunch of different set ups for bass, highs are fullrange, they looked exactly like those.


 
  
 Hmm..I haven't seen those. Do you know which company produced these?


----------



## Bribo

Flyingbananna, that crossover circuit board is awsome, where did you get it ?  Do you know if they make them for different armature bundles ?  I am looking for a crossover design for a HODVTEC and a TWFK.
  
Thanks


----------



## MuZo2

bribo said:


> Flyingbananna, that crossover circuit board is awsome, where did you get it ?  Do you know if they make them for different armature bundles ?  I am looking for a crossover design for a HODVTEC and a TWFK.
> 
> Thanks


 

 Taobao, there are few combinations available.


----------



## piotrus-g

xymordos said:


> Hmm..I haven't seen those. Do you know which company produced these?


 

 Spent some time searching but this is it. http://www.tradekorea.com/product/detail/P580353/Balanced-Armature-Driver.html


----------



## MuZo2

xymordos said:


> Hmm..I haven't seen those. Do you know which company produced these?



Seen them in few Chinese iems.


----------



## rggz

Guys, a little odd question... 

 Can it be resistors soldered onto the Y-Split?​


----------



## jbr1971

Hi all,
  
 I just wanted to post about my experience with getting my impressions scanned for eventual 3D printing.
  
 I accepted @MIke M's offer for scanning services as I had not been able to find anyone that could do it for anywhere near a reasonable price. It cost me $10 plus shipping ($32 total with return shipping), compared to the $130 I was quoted elsewhere.
  
 I mailed the impressions last Monday (Canada to Kansas), and they arrived this morning. I received my STL files this afternoon, and confirmed in CAD they are excellent quality scans. The resolution is good enough to pick up small flaws in the impression itself (which I plan to fix in software).
  
 I wholeheartedly recommend anyone looking to scan impressions contact Mike, you will not be disappointed.
  
 Now to see what I can do with making much more consistent shells in CAD and getting them printed.
  
 Jody


----------



## MIke M

I'm glad it worked out for you


----------



## Xymordos

piotrus-g said:


> Spent some time searching but this is it. http://www.tradekorea.com/product/detail/P580353/Balanced-Armature-Driver.html


 
  
  
 Their woofer's response looks shockingly good...
  
 Edit: https://clarityfidelity.blogspot.hk/2016/06/tsst-earnine-en2-iem.html 
  
 The company's called Toshiba-Samsung-Storage Technology o.O


----------



## nocchi

Anyone tried emulating the Pristine HUM?


----------



## jbr1971

nocchi said:


> Anyone tried emulating the Pristine HUM?


 
  
 With the design/build I am working on now that was the inspiration. However, without any direct knowledge of the drivers and caps/resistors they are using, the inspiration is more of the "less is more" design philosophy.
  
 Hopefully I can get something approximating their frequency response, with maybe a touch more low end.
  
 Have you found any information regarding the exact components they are using?


----------



## MOFiddler

I'm new to Head-fi. Like many noob's, I have been reading for a while before officially joining and starting to ask questions.

I have not run across this question in my reading, or via a keyword search. I apologize in advance if I am revisiting a pre-existing discussion.

I have a set of impressions, made by an audiologist. They are still "unmodified" in any way. Is it possible/advisable to make a silicone mold of the "original" impressions? My thought process was simply to do this as a fail safe. If I should screw something up while trying to modify to the final casting shape ... I would have a mold to re-create a new "unmodified" set of impressions. Or, I could just use it to create more copies to practice the trimming and modification process.

Any input would be appreciated.


----------



## MuZo2

mike m said:


> I'm glad it worked out for you


 
 Do you trim them before scanning? I see the tip is trimmed and rounded. Or was it done in software?


----------



## MIke M

He already had it trimmed. It can be done ahead of time or in modeling software.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Hello all, just wanted to show off a new toy I got off eBay. $291 dollars shipped. 

Hydrocolloid duplicating machine. I got it from a dentist!


----------



## ForceMajeure

shilohsjustice said:


> Hello all, just wanted to show off a new toy I got off eBay. $291 dollars shipped.
> 
> Hydrocolloid duplicating machine. I got it from a dentist!


 
 Oh wow..lol
  
 You completely lost your mind, that's it  
  
 Did it come with Hydrocolloid in it?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

forcemajeure said:


> Oh wow..lol
> 
> You completely lost your mind, that's it
> 
> Did it come with Hydrocolloid in it?




I have gone crazy!!!!

Lol, no colloid in it. The dentist didn't know how to use it because it was all messed up. It took me about an hour to clean it. I'm assuming he didn't understand the Chinese writing because the element temps were very different.


----------



## UNOE

muzo2 said:


> bribo said:
> 
> 
> > Flyingbananna, that crossover circuit board is awsome, where did you get it ?  Do you know if they make them for different armature bundles ?  I am looking for a crossover design for a [COLOR=333333]HODVTEC and a TWFK.[/COLOR]
> ...




I would like crossover for same driver pairing


----------



## ForceMajeure

unoe said:


> I would like crossover for same driver pairing


 
 Luke from Vibrolabs is selling premade kits with Knowles GV drivers (those are combo drivers with a premade crossovers using the Hodvtec and twfk)
 You should take a look.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

forcemajeure said:


> Luke from Vibrolabs is selling premade kits with Knowles GV drivers (those are combo drivers with a premade crossovers using the Hodvtec and twfk)
> You should take a look.





We should put some money in and buy a set, then dissect it to find out what the values are. I wonder when they will hit Digikey or Mouser.


----------



## ForceMajeure

shilohsjustice said:


> We should put some money in and buy a set, then dissect it to find out what the values are. I wonder when they will hit Digikey or Mouser.


 
 I looked at the GV during Luke's stream on his facebook page.
 it looked like it's not the regular Hodvtec as it was already wired in parallel.
  
 Don't know when or if they will be on sale anytime soon.
 Maybe some guys that received their kit in the first wave could give us a bit more info on them.


----------



## ziixtreme

xymordos said:


> That's almost like the Fitear 334 config, if you swapped the SWFK with an ED




Yes, and this is meant to surpass fitear 334


----------



## Squirg

DUDE!!!!  How do you always find the deals?!?!  I have been looking for a deal on one of these bad boys but they are hard to find and always $1k or so...
  
 Nice find!  My thinking is that these things should be all over the market as more people go digital but that doesn't seem to be the case!


----------



## Shilohsjustice

I found some info on the Knowles GV, and wanted to share with everyone. 



Knowles has released a new 4-way balanced armature receiver with their GV series. It is 4 drivers with a 3-way crossover composed of the HODVTEC woofer and TWFK midrange / tweeter. This driver produces an excellent bass response and dynamic range.

Key features

Complete solution for high-quality, in-ear Hi-Fi systems
Premium bandwidth
Custom tuning available
4 back vents with removable seals (1 tape and 2 screens)
Rich bass response
Specifications

Sensitivity (@ 1kHz): 113.25 dB
DC resistance: 35 Ohms
Impedance (@ 500Hz): 50 Ohms
Impedance (@ 1kHz): 28 Ohms
Port location: Dual
Contact Seltech for more details as well as technical and sales support

seltech@seltech-international.com


----------



## Squirg

squirg said:


> DUDE!!!!  How do you always find the deals?!?!  I have been looking for a deal on one of these bad boys but they are hard to find and always $1k or so...
> 
> Nice find!  My thinking is that these things should be all over the market as more people go digital but that doesn't seem to be the case!


 
 Sorry, this was meant for Shiloh and his killer new duplicator!


----------



## SVTong

Any idea how the GV's will be priced compared to the GK?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

squirg said:


> Sorry, this was meant for Shiloh and his killer new duplicator!




Lol, I look on eBay almost everyday for equipment. I've been looking for a duplicator for months and months.


----------



## drumkendrum

I ordered this thing almost 7 months ago, so excited it got in. Time to experiment !


----------



## Shilohsjustice

drumkendrum said:


> I ordered this thing almost 7 months ago, so excited it got in. Time to experiment !





IT's SO PRETTY!!!!!


----------



## UNOE

forcemajeure said:


> unoe said:
> 
> 
> > I would like crossover for same driver pairing
> ...




It's not practical to pay $300 for shell I won't use.


----------



## shdh

unoe said:


> It's not practical to pay $300 for shell I won't use.


 
 Get a 3D printer.


----------



## Senor CIEM

Dear DIY CIEM Community,

 after getting into all these things the last 2 weeks, I'm really excited to getting started into this project by practising it in the next few days. Reading all the informations here in this thread with over 400 pages and getting through the very nice made Google Docs Wiki, I think I know now a lot of things making shells, faceplates, designs and ear molds, but the biggest part for me is still making the CIEMs sound good from the scratch. 

 I know, it's completely a trial and error / measurement and especially experimental thing because the possibilities are endless! 

 But after reading all this, I found a few different driver setups here (that has been metioned a lot) that maybe are good to start for "beginners". Maybe some of you can give me your advice - or better to say - your experience to the following setups. 

 The thing is, at the end of the day it's a very cost intensiv thing getting the first good sounding IEM just when you had to build 20 difference combinations before. I also want to fill the complete shell out with Fotoplast, so changing components after that is hard to do. 
  
*SINGLE DRIVER FULLRANGE SETUP*
  

BK-28507 + Grey Damper  / SingleTube
ED29689 + ? Damper / SingleTube
CI + ? Damper / SingleTube
 
*GK/GQ COMBINATIONS*
  

GQ + Brown Damper
GQ (No Damper) + CI (Red Damper) - No Crossover
GK: CI (No Damper) + TWFK (White Damper) / Dual Tube
GK: CI (Red Damper) + TWFK (Green Damper)  / Dual Tube
GK: CI (Brown Damper) + TWFK (Grey Damper)  / Dual Tube
GK: CI (Brown Damper) + TWFK (No Damper)  / Dual Tube
GK: CI (Red Damper) + TWFK (No Damper)  / Dual Tube
GK (Grey Damper) / SingleTube
  
*CI/TWFK COMBINATIONS*
  

5Ohm on the CI + TWFK (22uF) - No Dampers
CI (Red Damper) + TWFK (Grey Damper) - No Crossover
10Ohm on the CI + TWFK [0,47uF on the WBFK / 39Ohm inline with cap on the FK side]
  
*CI/ED COMBINATIONS*
  

10Ohm on the CI + ED-23619 (2,2uF+2,2uF) - (No Dampers) 
  
  
 So the main questions are:

Which single fullrange driver setup will sound best from the above.
Which dampers are the best of the single ED29689 and CI setup?
Will the GQ just with the brown damper sound good enough? How will it work with a CI (Red Damper) without a crossover.
Which GK Damper combination will sound best? Dual or Single tube 
Will the CI/TWFK Combination make sense, or is it better to start directly with a GQ or GK setup?
What do you think about the CI/ED combination. 
Which tube lenght's will you suggest for all of this examples to start? 14-20mm?
  
 
 As I mentioned above, maybe you can give just an addive for 1x Good Single Driver, 1x Good GQ, 1x Good GK and 1x CI/TWFK setup or the best combination of driver and dampers of each "category" of this list to start to beginn. I think this and your answers will help new beginners also to get faster into this.
  
 Much appreciate it! - Thank you!


----------



## UNOE

shdh said:


> unoe said:
> 
> 
> > It's not practical to pay $300 for shell I won't use.
> ...




The point was I have shells made. The GV kit is $300 and can't part it out if you want only the driver. The GV driver should eventually be $80 each or lower.


----------



## UNOE

senor ciem said:


> Dear DIY CIEM Community,
> 
> 
> after getting into all these things the last 2 weeks, I'm really excited to getting started into this project by practising it in the next few days. Reading all the informations here in this thread with over 400 pages and getting through the very nice made Google Docs Wiki, I think I know now a lot of things making shells, faceplates, designs and ear molds, but the biggest part for me is still making the CIEMs sound good from the scratch.
> ...




I'm doing my first build as well and from my research GK would be way to go with just few dampers to find what signature you like best. For combinations your are not going to get much better with those listed here than GK since GK is same drivers with proper cross over already.
If your going to do combination why not do HODVTEC + TWFK? that is suppose to be better than GK. Hopefully in near future we can all get our hands on the new GV which is HODVTEC + TWFK and crossover in one. Soon as you see the GV on digikey get that if your not done with your build by then.

I would probably recommend people request GV from mouser and digikey. GV-32830
Possibly more demand sooner you will see it.


----------



## J-breezy

I am thinking of putting together a 5 driver setup of a HODVTEC + ED + SWFK. With the ED being pretty good at mids and the SWFK having good extension (from what I've read. Never actually used an ED or SWFK). I was wondering if anyone had any ideas as to what resistors and capacitor values might be needed? At least for some starting points. 

Also, I think most people here actually use individual resistors and capacitors right? That's what I've always done. But just wondering if anyone has found any circuit boards like the ones used on Knowles GQ and GK type builds? Would be cool to get circuit boards made with the values you want then just wire it all to the board. 

Thanks


----------



## ForceMajeure

mofiddler said:


> I'm new to Head-fi. Like many noob's, I have been reading for a while before officially joining and starting to ask questions.
> 
> I have not run across this question in my reading, or via a keyword search. I apologize in advance if I am revisiting a pre-existing discussion.
> 
> ...


 
 You definitely could make more impressions from your original.
 Just put them in the investment cups, pour over them the hydrocolloid let it cool down and take them out of the molds.
 Now you only have to use the AB silicone material used to make the impressions, but instead of using it into your ears, use it into the investments.
 You could repeat the process a few times so you'll have a few sets of ear impressions to work on.
  
 Usually what people do is once they did the whole process (trimmed their impressions and had a good fitting shells out of them). They simply make a solid acrylic dummy out of those good shells or even keep the original shells and use these shells for every future build (pour the hydrocolloid on them and remove the dummy shells).


----------



## MuZo2

forcemajeure said:


> You definitely could make more impressions from your original.
> Just put them in the investment cups, pour over them the hydrocolloid let it cool down and take them out of the molds.
> *Now you only have to use the AB silicone material used to make the impressions, but instead of using it into your ears, use it into the investments.*
> You could repeat the process a few times so you'll have a few sets of ear impressions to work on.
> ...


 
*AB silicone material* have a shelf live of few weeks to months. I think second method works out well & this is how some companies preserve customer impressions.


----------



## ForceMajeure

He wants to have a few ear impressions so he could have a few on hand to experiment trimming them.
 Unless he plans to trim them one at the time every 6 months...
 Once he'll get things right he could either use a good fitting shell or make an acrylic copy of his good trimmed  and waxed ear impressions.
  
 Also you are right companies pour acrylic into emptied trimmed and waxed ear impressions investments to keep.


----------



## ForceMajeure

> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

Which single fullrange driver setup will sound best from the above.  RAB-32257 is a good single range driver also use it with a green damper. (used in the ety er4xr)
Which dampers are the best of the single ED29689 and CI setup? Usually a green on the ED and a orange or yellow on the CI if you plan to use the ED for the mids (you should)...you'll have to use a resistor on the CI so it get's to the level of the ED...trial and error
Will the GQ just with the brown damper sound good enough? How will it work with a CI (Red Damper) without a crossover. GQ is used in the ath im02 afaik they don't have a 2 different damping solutions with 2 tubes. A brown or a green should be good, or even white. again you'll have to test.
Which GK Damper combination will sound best? Dual or Single tube  Many like a yellow on the CI and green damper on the twfk with 2 separate tubes, although I heard some like using one tube with only green. you'll have to test.
Will the CI/TWFK Combination make sense, or is it better to start directly with a GQ or GK setup? GK crossover value have been posted a few times here if I am not mistaken it's 4.7ohm in series with the CI and a High pass filter using only a 22uf cap to the TWFK. IMO the resistor value is a bit low as the GK is a quite warm sounding combination. so you could use a higher value resistor on it. Or you could ditch the GK crossover design and just use a resistor for the CI until it gets to the "right level" with the twfk using only dampers for both of them (I would use yellow on the CI and green/brown or white on the twfk)
What do you think about the CI/ED combination. can be very good if you use the right attenuation so both drivers are in unison.
Which tube lenght's will you suggest for all of this examples to start? 14-20mm? 10 to 20mm dampers at 5 to 7mm from the spout is the usual recommendation


----------



## Xymordos

For me I recommend using the CI as mid-bass. ED as highs. (The ED mids don't sound nice to me)
  
 Tubing I'd use 10mm or 15mm length, 1.5mm diameter.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

I just got these fun little things in the mail today. 

TWFK's and HODVTEC's - I'm going to try some different crossover configs.


----------



## ForceMajeure

shilohsjustice said:


> I just got these fun little things in the mail today.
> 
> TWFK's and HODVTEC's - I'm going to try some different crossover configs.


 
 BTW the Knowles GV have 2 ports taped and 2 ports meshed filtered. You could use some semipermeable material to control the meshed ports like teabag paper or even earbuds foams for example.
 Obstructing the ports will give you less spl by a few db and less of the 1khz bump and probably less distortion also.


----------



## audiofreakie

No need beautiful housing for IEMs
LOL.


----------



## Bribo

> Originally Posted by *Shilohsjustice* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> I just got these fun little things in the mail today.
> 
> TWFK's and HODVTEC's - I'm going to try some different crossover configs.


 
 Nice !  I have a set of these as well waiting for crossover inspiration.  Please let us know what works out best for you.


----------



## BramblexD

I can't give technical details on the GV, but I finished building the universal kit from Luke, with bass ports uncovered and the sound is excellent. Sub-bass extends far down, bass is a little above neutral, vocals are clean (but I don't listen to vocal music that much so can't really describe it), no sibilance and high are a little rolled off (could be due to comply tips though)


----------



## Mogol

My first pair with BA. Single driver, BK-28562 from old Shure, with green damper. I`m not happy with sound and fit. Need more accuracy in the processing of the impressions=)
 Coming next GK-31732 with red/white dampers. Hope it will sounds and fits better. And looks better =)
  
 http://imgur.com/mS7Xpq5
  
 http://imgur.com/OfTpFzI


----------



## ziixtreme

mogol said:


> My first pair with BA. Single driver, BK-28562 from old Shure, with green damper. I`m not happy with sound and fit. Need more accuracy in the processing of the impressions=)
> Coming next GK-31732 with red/white dampers. Hope it will sounds and fits better. And looks better =)
> 
> http://imgur.com/mS7Xpq5
> ...


 
 If you are able to get Sonion 2389, it will be very good. Basic configuration CI-22955 1.5x2.0 red damper + Sonion 2389 (half coil) 1.5*2.0 green damper. Make 2 sound bores if possible. Results are not bad.


----------



## ziixtreme

Fitear MH335 DW configuration:
  
 2XCI-22955 parallel 10 ohm, orange damper (-) 1.5x2.0
 33A007 series full range white damper (+) 1.5x2.0
 2389 0.47uF no damper (-) 1.5x2.0
  
 anybody want to try this?


----------



## Mogol

Guys, i have a question about measurements.
  
 I`m experienced enough with SMAART. I have a soundcard and measurement microphone for acoustic systems. I made few measurements with my earphones, using paper tube mounted on the mic 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 And results are far from the truth. But! I have a friend who works in hearing aid clinic and he showed me the measurement system that he uses. Interacoustics Affinity. There is a 2cc coupler with mic. I`m going to connect this mic to my soundcard and SMAART. The problem is that the mic with built-in 3,5 mm mini jack. So, I need to figure out which adapter to do for connecting to my XLR input. In the technical documentation, there is no information about the type of microphone: dynamic, condenser or electret. And pins... I know what to do if i need only pins 1 and 3 (picture 2). But maybe the microphone needs the fantom power. My +48 Volts can damage the mic. Or it`s common balanced connection: 1 - GND, 2 - positive, 3 - negative.  
  
 Here is some pics. Any suggestions?
  
 http://imgur.com/iVDZYeT
  
 http://imgur.com/QBOk5AN


----------



## Mogol

ziixtreme said:


> If you are able to get Sonion 2389, it will be very good. Basic configuration CI-22955 1.5x2.0 red damper + Sonion 2389 1.5*2.0 green damper. Make 2 sound bores if possible. Results are not bad.


 
 Don't see an easy way to buy Sonion, but will look for it. Thanks for the advice.


----------



## ziixtreme

mogol said:


> Don't see an easy way to buy Sonion, but will look for it. Thanks for the advice.




ED-29689 works too. Maybe you need 3.3uF on the ED


----------



## Shilohsjustice

I installed a drawer on my work bench today!!! What's your workstation look like????


----------



## Mogol

shilohsjustice said:


> I installed a drawer on my work bench today!!! What's your workstation look like????


 
 These red/green wires are Estron from Soundlink? How do you tin them? As far as I know, litz wire not so easy to tin.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

mogol said:


> These red/green wires are Estron from Soundlink? How do you tin them? As far as I know, litz wire not so easy to tin.




The best way is to get some solder on your iron tip and place the tip of the wire into it. The solder melts the enamel and tins the end.


----------



## ziixtreme

Have anyone tried ED-26805 from knowles? i find it quite good to pair with 30095 plus a dynamic. you get excellent sub bass sweet mids and very nice treble extention.
 (๑•̀ㅁ•́๑)✧


----------



## nocchi

Try to make my first IEM, got CI-22955 and ED-29689 on the way. And I have a on hand ED-30761 and WBFK-30095, can you suggest a crossover for this configuration (CI + ED + WBFK) thanks!


----------



## Julianus

Hey, if anyone is interested in the new Knowles GV, the Mc.Ear Onlineshop sells them for about 80€ here in Germany. I've got mine a few days ago, but unfortunately still could not measure what values the two SMD components have, without desolder them. Is it possible to meassure them incircuit or distort the drivers the measurement?  Now I'm thinking about what Dampers I should use. I think without Dampers the HODVTEC are used fullrange, because only the two FK drivers have a Condensator as higpass. Without dampers the GV have significantly too much heights.
  
 Edit: I think, the two SMD components are Resistors. I managed to meassure the left one to 62ohm and the right one to 48ohm. Did that make any sense? I always thought, capacitores in row are used on the high drivers as highpass. But after further measurements i am pretty confident, that on all 4 drivers the negativ side is wired directly parallel and on the positiv side the the  HODVTEC is wired directly and the twfk with the two resistors.


----------



## ForceMajeure

julianus said:


> Hey, if anyone is interested in the new Knowles GV, the Mc.Ear Onlineshop sells them for about 80€ here in Germany. I've got mine a few days ago, but unfortunately still could not measure what values the two SMD components have, without desolder them. Is it possible to meassure them incircuit or distort the drivers the measurement?  Now I'm thinking about what Dampers I should use. I think without Dampers the HODVTEC are used fullrange, because only the two FK drivers have a Condensator as higpass. Without dampers the GV have significantly too much heights.
> 
> Edit: I think, the two SMD components are Resistors. I managed to meassure the left one to 62ohm and the right one to 48ohm. Did that make any sense? I always thought, capacitores in row are used on the high drivers as highpass. But after further measurements i am pretty confident, that on all 4 drivers the negativ side is wired directly parallel and on the positiv side the the  HODVTEC is wired directly and the twfk with the two resistors.


 

  
 These 2 components looks like capacitors to me.
 Both drivers btw have different nomenclature than the usual HODVTEC and twfk.

  
 32838 for the HODVTEC and 31129 for the twfk.
  
  
 BTW the price ~80eur for them in the Mc.Ear Onlineshop  is for a pair?
 I see that they don't have them in stock and they will be available on the 4th of April.


----------



## Julianus

Yeah, from the appereance i also thought that the 2 components are capacitors, but i could'n get any reading from my meassurement device in capacitor mode, and stable ohm values in resitor mode measured directly at the 2 contacts of the smd components.
 I also saw the same different numbers on the drivers, even if the small one is very hard to read without a microscope.
 Btw i measuered the resistence of the 2 small driveres to 27ohm for the left and 13ohm for the right one. That matches the twfk data sheet wich mentions:" DC Resistance: 25ohm +-10% /  25ohm FK, 12.5ohm wbfk".
  
 80€ for one Driver. But i think its a fair price, because at digikey its 65€ for an HODVTEC+TWFK. I have telephoned with the owner and he mentioned that the drivers are probably earlier available and 4th of April is the last possible date.


----------



## piotrus-g

you won't be able to measure caps as long as they are connected to driver


----------



## Julianus

damit, i see now what you mean. I dont know how i could be so stupid, that i didnt see that i measuered the dc resistances from 3 speakers in parallel. Is there a way to measure the caps without desoldering? On a PCB my SMD solderskills are good, but i dont know if i could resolder them on the recivers with litz wire soldered directly to the caps like they are atm.


----------



## ForceMajeure

julianus said:


> damit, i see now what you mean. I dont know how i could be so stupid, that i didnt see that i measuered the dc resistances from 3 speakers in parallel. Is there a way to measure the caps without desoldering? On a PCB my SMD solderskills are good, but i dont know if i could resolder them on the recivers with litz wire soldered directly to the caps like they are atm.


 
 You can't measure capacitance without desoldering them.
 Balanced armatures have their own capacitance so it will mess the measurements.
 You could desolder and solder them back rather easily but it depends on your skills.


----------



## ziixtreme

nocchi said:


> Try to make my first IEM, got CI-22955 and ED-29689 on the way. And I have a on hand ED-30761 and WBFK-30095, can you suggest a crossover for this configuration (CI + ED + WBFK) thanks!



CI-22955 10 ohm red damper, ED29689 3.3uF green damper, WBFK-30095 0.47 or 0.22 no damper. You can try this. Make 3 bores


----------



## SVTong

I'm trying to make a very small CIEM for my wife and I don't have enough room to run dual tubes for the GK unit.  Does anyone have any advice on what damper I should be using for a single-tube GK?  She would like the sound to be slightly V-shaped.


----------



## MOFiddler

*Fotoplast S IO:*
  
 From reading the forums, I am aware of two US vendors that will sell direct to CIEM builders/hobbyists.  It looks like 100g is the smallest quantity available for the shell forming material.  I measured this out by volume and it's just under 1/2 a cup.  Can someone please share how many shells you are likely to get from this amount of Fotoplast?  Obviously assuming I don't completely cure an entire shell or more in my learning process.  
  
*Investment Material:*
  
 I believe one vendor will sell this by the pound.  I understand it is reusable.  I'm just wondering how long a pound should last.


----------



## Bad Username

mofiddler said:


> *[COLOR=FF0000]Fotoplast S IO:[/COLOR]*
> 
> From reading the forums, I am aware of two US vendors that will sell direct to CIEM builders/hobbyists.  It looks like 100g is the smallest quantity available for the shell forming material.  I measured this out by volume and it's just under 1/2 a cup.  Can someone please share how many shells you are likely to get from this amount of Fotoplast?  Obviously assuming I don't completely cure an entire shell or more in my learning process.
> 
> ...




Around 5-6 pairs of shells, give or take depending on how thick you make them and how much you waste. Also, you need to fill the entire negative mold when curing so you'll need enough left over to do that. 

Assuming you are using hydrocolloid investment material, they generally say melt 6 times max. But if you add a bit of water when it starts to dry out you might be able to use it a bit more, however it does discolour after a few melts.


----------



## jbr1971

mofiddler said:


> *Fotoplast S IO:*
> 
> From reading the forums, I am aware of two US vendors that will sell direct to CIEM builders/hobbyists.  It looks like 100g is the smallest quantity available for the shell forming material.  I measured this out by volume and it's just under 1/2 a cup.  Can someone please share how many shells you are likely to get from this amount of Fotoplast?  Obviously assuming I don't completely cure an entire shell or more in my learning process.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I have made 10-12 pairs of shells with mine (estimating from bad memory, I did not keep count). I am just coming to the end of my supply now.
  
 I bought 1 lb of clear ballistics gel and have only used around half of it. I have made 3 sets (pairs) of molds so far. It is reusable, but after I have made shells in a mold I do not melt them back down for reuse because of "contamination". With that much gel I do not need to worry about reusing.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

So I spent the majority of the night working with the HODVTEC and have some results. I tested on my rig but do not have graphs to post as I am tired and have to work in the morning. 

What I noticed with no resistor and yellow damper, the HODVTEC is very thunderous and is putting out too much pressure to be comfortable for me. 

From 10ohm - 30ohm resistance, sound cleans and bass drops significantly losing and shifts from thunderous to clean mud. 

When I removed the damper on those ranges I found the sound signature was decent. 

I removed the damper and tested between 30ohm - 70ohm resistance. To my surprise the 50ohm - 70ohm had the best detailed bass maintaining a nice sound and to my ears the 68ohm sounded the best. I plan on testing tomorrow with the SWFK as well as with a TWFK. 

So far I think 68ohm resistor gets me what I want in the HODVTEC. 

This was tested in a universal shell with a horn style tip, NO faceplate attached paired with a TWFK with a .47 cap.


----------



## Xymordos

shilohsjustice said:


> So I spent the majority of the night working with the HODVTEC and have some results. I tested on my rig but do not have graphs to post as I am tired and have to work in the morning.
> 
> What I noticed with no resistor and yellow damper, the HODVTEC is very thunderous and is putting out too much pressure to be comfortable for me.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Were you able to get rid of the ~1kHz peak for the HODVTEC using crossovers? That peak is worse than the CI22955.


----------



## ForceMajeure

shilohsjustice said:


> So I spent the majority of the night working with the HODVTEC and have some results. I tested on my rig but do not have graphs to post as I am tired and have to work in the morning.
> 
> What I noticed with no resistor and yellow damper, the HODVTEC is very thunderous and is putting out too much pressure to be comfortable for me.
> 
> ...


 
 You should try to play with blocking the vents.
 Block 2 on one side with tape and start obscuring the other 2 with various materials/opening size. If I am not mistaken Luke published some graph of the hodvtec blocked and not blocked on the veritas.


----------



## ForceMajeure

Found it
 https://diyearphone.com/pages/armature-measurements
  
 in the bottom page.


----------



## ForceMajeure

xymordos said:


> Were you able to get rid of the ~1kHz peak for the HODVTEC using crossovers? That peak is worse than the CI22955.


 
 I think only the yellow damper might get rid of that 1khz peak to a certain degree. You could try and see if using 2 yellow dampers in series (in the same tube) does the trick.
 Having a low pass filter is probably more aggressive but effective.


----------



## Xymordos

forcemajeure said:


> I think only the yellow damper might get rid of that 1khz peak to a certain degree. You could try and see if using 2 yellow dampers in series (in the same tube) does the trick.
> Having a low pass filter is probably more aggressive but effective.


 
  
 I'd prefer not to use dampers though, as I usually don't use a PVC/Silicon tube  Seems like the value of the cap on the low pass must be quite big for it to be effective.


----------



## sanekn

Yesterday i exploded my triple to remake it again. But didnt had a time to do so in the evening so this morning i saw a pair of cheap chinese kz on the floor near the bed and decided to do something before taking my train to work. Had 10 minutes to get rid of the dynamic driver inside and glue a bk one instead with grey damper in the tube. Yeah its not the best earphone in the world. Lack of everything. But itll do to get through the day i guess


----------



## Shawn71

sanekn said:


> Yesterday i exploded my triple to remake it again. But didnt had a time to do so in the evening so this morning i saw a pair of cheap chinese kz on the floor near the bed and decided to do something before taking my train to work. Had 10 minutes to get rid of the dynamic driver inside and glue a bk one instead with grey damper in the tube. Yeah its not the best earphone in the world. Lack of everything. But itll do to get through the day i guess




whats that "triple"?......was it xiaomi triple hybrid iem? and is the kz model, ZS3?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

xymordos said:


> Were you able to get rid of the ~1kHz peak for the HODVTEC using crossovers? That peak is worse than the CI22955.




Still has the 1khz peak, I am going to experiment tonight with adding a cap to see if I can get the sound a bit more neutral.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

forcemajeure said:


> I think only the yellow damper might get rid of that 1khz peak to a certain degree. You could try and see if using 2 yellow dampers in series (in the same tube) does the trick.
> Having a low pass filter is probably more aggressive but effective.




I tried what Luke suggested with damping it instead of using resistors, and I didn't care for the sound at all. I felt like the bass was like an over filled balloon. Even when I tried adding resistance to it, it still sounded way to chaotic to me. 

It could also be that the impedance differences between the TWFK and HODVTEC was making it sound worse, I did not compensate or try to add much capetance to the TWFK, I'll test individually instead of as a full setup. 

I will try some tests tonight with taping the vents to see if that draws that sound a bit tighter. If I get the chance I'll post the measurements from testing.


----------



## Senor CIEM

Hey,

 thanks a lot for helping with the driver & damper choice in the last week. 
  

I'm currently at the tuning stage with my DIEMs and I'm really not sure about the tube length for it. For example if you take a GK, I read the "best" thing is to put the dampers 5mm from spout for the tweeter and 7mm from the woofer, but what should the actual tube length be? What is the best length to start to, or which length work best in all of your monitors? (not just for the GK)
  

Second question is, how do you test your driver setup with different dampers? I see a problem when I glue the tube to the driver to seal it. Switching the damper after that is not very easy and a fast plug & play thing. So how do you solve that problem?
  

Thanks!


----------



## sanekn

​


shawn71 said:


> whats that "triple"?......was it xiaomi triple hybrid iem? and is the kz model, ZS3?



Im talking about my gk filled diem  kz i dont know the cheapest one, i just wantef to use it for trying some universal diying


----------



## jbr1971

shilohsjustice said:


> So I spent the majority of the night working with the HODVTEC and have some results. I tested on my rig but do not have graphs to post as I am tired and have to work in the morning.
> 
> What I noticed with no resistor and yellow damper, the HODVTEC is very thunderous and is putting out too much pressure to be comfortable for me.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Am I correct in assuming you left the ports open? If so, wouldn't having no faceplate affect the sound a lot compared to if there was a faceplate, given the significant difference in air volume?
  
 I would be curious to see how much of a difference there is if you run the same tests again, but with a temp faceplate attached. I have a feeling it could make a big difference.


----------



## jbr1971

senor ciem said:


> Hey,
> 
> thanks a lot for helping with the driver & damper choice in the last week.
> 
> ...


 
  
 To test dampers I use a small amount of blue-tac around the base of the spout to connect the driver to the tubing. It holds well enough to get through testing, and cleanup is minimal when getting ready to put everything together for final.


----------



## sanekn

Ok i was actually just bad talking about the bk driver earlier. But ive just sat down on the couch after the work and put some vocal smooth jazz through this little driver and the experience went surprisingly well. Then some cardigans, same, quite nice balancee sound. But when i drop some metal/harcore stuff (music i listen to almost everytime), it lacks of something i cant say what. Sound is like from radio i dont know  but yeah for some other music genres it is surprisingly good! Bk driver with grey damper.


----------



## ForceMajeure

jbr1971 said:


> Am I correct in assuming you left the ports open? If so, wouldn't having no faceplate affect the sound a lot compared to if there was a faceplate, given the significant difference in air volume?
> 
> I would be curious to see how much of a difference there is if you run the same tests again, but with a temp faceplate attached. I have a feeling it could make a big difference.


 
 Attaching the faceplate shouldn't matter for a vented BA.


----------



## piotrus-g

forcemajeure said:


> Attaching the faceplate shouldn't matter for a vented BA.


 
 There is a measurable difference for open and closed faceplate either in vented and non-vented drivers. Open back IEM sounds different than closed shell


----------



## Shilohsjustice

I'm going test with faceplate today, I did some testing last night and the pic is the setup that sounded best. I'm going to shell it up and test as a complete IEM.


----------



## ForceMajeure

piotrus-g said:


> There is a *measurable difference for open and closed faceplate either in vented and non-vented drivers*. Open back IEM sounds different than closed shell


 
 You sure of that?
 even a non vented BA?
  
 I measured quite a few with closed and open back and measurements show no difference. Of course there was no air leak at the tip.
 We are talking balanced armature only.
 I even remember doing this lately on a er4p for repair. 
  
 I can agree on the fact that it might sound slightly different once in your ears because of the added layer of isolation.


----------



## ForceMajeure

You got me intrigued so I just a measured a 33AJ007i/9 (vented) that had a low pass, I stuck it in a generic shell and measured with and without sealing it. (yellow is open green is closed)
 the driver have is not dampered and have no tube attached to it just sealed to the metal nozzle of the generic shell

  
 Maybe THDs are different though


----------



## ForceMajeure

On a different subject.
 I got asked what does it mean when it says: no damping, type I, type II, type III  in the Knowles technical sheets above the frequency graph.
 like here f.e 
  
 Knowles includes this notification under "BRV damping", it have several classes including ferrofluid.
  
 Those kind of drivers under these kind of classifications are not standard drivers but are already altered/damped to suit certain applications.
 Type I includes a screen in the nozzle this kind of damping will reduce the 1st and 2nd peaks
 Type II  is combination of I and III
 Type III is barometric relief hole/holes in the diaphragm this kind of damping is effective to lower bass outputs up to 500hz


----------



## Xymordos

forcemajeure said:


> On a different subject.
> I got asked what does it mean when it says: no damping, type I, type II, type III  in the Knowles technical sheets above the frequency graph.
> like here f.e
> 
> ...


 
  
 That's actually really useful to know, thanks! So Type II and Type III will result in less bass.
  
 For the faceplate issue, I never had response differences for the bass part. However, I found that there is a difference in measured high freq response when I filled the shell up with resin and when I have a hollow shell. It seems like when the tubes are completely covered in resin, this increases high frequency response.


----------



## ForceMajeure

xymordos said:


> That's actually really useful to know, thanks! So Type II and Type III will result in less bass.


 
 Yes, usually Type III and II (both have the holes in the diaphragm) will have lower bass spl up to 200hz but some have even lower bass up to 500hz
  
 Btw there is even a classification called Heavy Type

  
  


xymordos said:


> For the faceplate issue, I never had response differences for the bass part. However, I found that there is a difference in measured high freq response when I filled the shell up with resin and when I have a hollow shell. It seems like when the tubes are completely covered in resin, this increases high frequency response.


 
 Interesting regarding the higher frequencies.
 Maybe that's why Custom Art fills the harmony 8.2 with silicone?


----------



## piotrus-g

forcemajeure said:


> You got me intrigued so I just a measured a 33AJ007i/9 (vented) that had a low pass, I stuck it in a generic shell and measured with and without sealing it. (yellow is open green is closed)
> the driver have is not dampered and have no tube attached to it just sealed to the metal nozzle of the generic shell
> 
> 
> ...


 well i wasn't talking specifically about frequency response. All i can say that there's a way to determine the difference between open and closed shells


----------



## ForceMajeure

piotrus-g said:


> well i wasn't talking specifically about frequency response. All i can say that there's a way to determine the difference between open and closed shells


 
 Well, you are the most experienced user we have in this thread. When you say there's a difference, there probably is, I believe you.
  
 I am sure I talk for the majority of users in this thread. Any input, tips and info you share here is always appreciated. Thank you for sharing your knowledge with us.


----------



## MuZo2

forcemajeure said:


> Well, you are the most experienced user we have in this thread. When you say there's a difference, there probably is, I believe you.
> 
> I am sure I talk for the majority of users in this thread. Any input, tips and info you share here is always appreciated. Thank you for sharing your knowledge with us.



Can you make CSD plots for same.


----------



## ForceMajeure

muzo2 said:


> Can you make CSD plots for same.


 
 open faceplate

  
 closed faceplate

  
 The ringing btw is due to the driver placed directly in a generic iem metal shell with no tubing or damper whatsoever just sealed to the nozzle.


----------



## Xymordos

Hmm...then it's probably a phase difference?


----------



## ForceMajeure

No idea, 
 One thing to consider is the vents opening size. the 33aj007i/9 have a very small opening vs the HODVTEC or 3800.
 Also there is not doubt that a closed shell will sound slightly different than an open shell once in the ear. There is more isolation and less chance of surrounding sounds being transferred by the concave shell part to the ear.
  
  
 Now, you even talked about filling the shell completely. Doing that add another layer of isolation and separation.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

I found another place to buy Glycerin locally, for those that live in the USA you can buy Vegetable Glycerin from "The Vitamin Shoppe". It's better quality than the stuff I have been using and they carry it in store. Thought I'd pass the info on. I still haven't finished shelling up the 4driver yet but plan on posting my test graphs once done.


----------



## MuZo2

You can also order glycerin 99.9% VG at vape shop. I ordered one & when they delivered it they checked my ID for age proof.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

muzo2 said:


> You can also order glycerin 99.9% VG at vape shop. I ordered one & when they delivered it they checked my ID for age proof.




Was it a good price point? How many ounces? Do you like it?


----------



## MuZo2

10Euro for 1liter.


----------



## piotrus-g

xymordos said:


> Hmm...then it's probably a phase difference?



But... There is a difference between those csd


----------



## Xymordos

piotrus-g said:


> But... There is a difference between those csd


 
  
 Is it that the bass decay is slightly longer on one of them?


----------



## piotrus-g

xymordos said:


> Is it that the bass decay is slightly longer on one of them?


 notice different shape of bass decay. It's enough to change sound quite a bit.
There are still other means to measure difference, the change in sound signature is big as well, at least for me.


----------



## sanekn

Kinda offtop in the current conversation but damn this zebrano is looking good  one thing tho. i cants get the really clean finish to my ciems with the fotoplast lacquer and its integrated brush. Every time there is some marks and irregularities and same on the flat surface of the faceplate... do you guys doing some sanding and buffing after the use of this lacquer? And same question on glycerin or glysol dreve, when i give the ciem an uv bath in those my shell get some bubbles on it everywhere (very little stuff) that i clean up with the exacto knife. I guess its not really normal. I will try to use some acetone the next tome to clean up the sticky layer of the shell. Lets see what it does!


----------



## Xymordos

piotrus-g said:


> notice different shape of bass decay. It's enough to change sound quite a bit.
> There are still other means to measure difference, the change in sound signature is big as well, at least for me.


 
  
 Interesting - would leaving an air hole in the shell like the hybrid ones have the same effect on the vented BA as an open shell?


----------



## piotrus-g

xymordos said:


> Interesting - would leaving an air hole in the shell like the hybrid ones have the same effect on the vented BA as an open shell?


 technically, yes. Obviously the size of the hole would affect the response but you'd have to observe how. There will be noticeable notch at the resonance frequency for smaller sized bores


----------



## Squirg

sanekn said:


> Kinda offtop in the current conversation but damn this zebrano is looking good
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I go back and fourth with Lack3.  Lately, I have been getting better results with polishing the fotoplast rather than lacquering.  I love the ease and finish of Lack3 but, like you, I can never get a uniform finish and I haven't been able to polish it back to it's original luster.  I don't think it is designed to buff out.  I hear that the dipping method is the only way to go, but I haven't tried that yet.  I get the best results when I lightly sand and clean the whole exterior of the shell prior to lacquer.  
  
 Great looking ears though!  Love that zebra!


----------



## Shilohsjustice

squirg said:


> I go back and fourth with Lack3.  Lately, I have been getting better results with polishing the fotoplast rather than lacquering.  I love the ease and finish of Lack3 but, like you, I can never get a uniform finish and I haven't been able to polish it back to it's original luster.  I don't think it is designed to buff out.  I hear that the dipping method is the only way to go, but I haven't tried that yet.  I get the best results when I lightly sand and clean the whole exterior of the shell prior to lacquer.
> 
> Great looking ears though!  Love that zebra!




You need to make one of these, it rotates and if you use Lak 3 it's a must! It will solve the problem for those having issues coating with Lak3. I posted a couple times about how easy it is to make this.


----------



## Squirg

shilohsjustice said:


> I installed a drawer on my work bench today!!! What's your workstation look like????
> 
> I envy your organization!


----------



## myemaildw

anyone wants this occ silver plated cable with 2.5 balanced jack? it's free only 2.15 euro postage thanks
it's kinda short though from soldering and unseldering and trimming about 1m or something


----------



## SVTong

So I finished my first CIEMs last night, but I have a couple of problems.  Firstly, I have a lot of background hiss.  Admittedly, I'm only running them directly off of my cellphone - no standalone DAC and no amp - but it is driving me a bit nuts.  Is there anything I can do to get rid of the background noise?  My second issue is that I can faintly hear one of the local AM radio stations, but I think that's because I used wire with very little shielding to make my cable.  I'll try some different wire and see if that helps.


----------



## sanekn

squirg said:


> I go back and fourth with Lack3.  Lately, I have been getting better results with polishing the fotoplast rather than lacquering.  I love the ease and finish of Lack3 but, like you, I can never get a uniform finish and I haven't been able to polish it back to it's original luster.  I don't think it is designed to buff out.  I hear that the dipping method is the only way to go, but I haven't tried that yet.  I get the best results when I lightly sand and clean the whole exterior of the shell prior to lacquer.
> 
> Great looking ears though!  Love that zebra!




Thank you for your advice will try it along with the turning jig of shiloh  (thank you too!)


----------



## myemaildw

How do you make bass even on both l and r iems?


----------



## ForceMajeure

myemaildw said:


> How do you make bass even on both l and r iems?


 
 You use measurements and make sure both sides have the same configuration. That the drivers are not defective, same venting if you use it, same tube length, damping material and so on...


----------



## MuZo2

1) drivers not defective
2) perfect seal of tube with driver
3) perfect seal at tip 
4) dampers not defective
5) perfect seal of ciems on both sides.


----------



## bartzky

Hi! I'm planning to get into building CIEMs so I'm starting to arm myself 

Does anybody know if this will be suitable:




[@]http://www.proxxon.com/en/micromot/28515.php?list[/@]
It's about 50€.

I think this guy uses Proxxon equipment in his video starting at 0:24.
https://youtu.be/qxUKRjgJjS0


----------



## jbr1971

bartzky said:


> Hi! I'm planning to get into building CIEMs so I'm starting to arm myself
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yes, it looks like it should do the job. It appears to be similar to my Wen rotary tool:
  
 https://www.amazon.com/WEN-2305-Rotary-Tool-Shaft/dp/B003BYRFH8
  
 With my Wen it has a flexible extension shaft that makes using it around smaller fine objects much easier. If the Proxxon has that I highly recommend getting it.


----------



## MuZo2

Wen is super cheap, compared to Dremel
 https://www.amazon.de/Dremel-Multifunktionswerkzeug-Zubeh%C3%B6re-Vorsatzger%C3%A4te-Werkzeugkoffer/dp/B014UXZMEG/ref=sr_1_5?s=diy&ie=UTF8&qid=1490125813&sr=1-5&keywords=dremel
  
 but found one similar
 https://www.amazon.de/Lund-79314-Mehrzweckschleifmaschine-135W/dp/B009SFTS88/ref=sr_1_7?s=diy&ie=UTF8&qid=1490125813&sr=1-7&keywords=dremel


----------



## bartzky

Thanks guys! How are your experiences with those devices?


----------



## MuZo2

I have Dremel and works well for smoothing impressions and drilling holes in acrylic (diamond burs) also to make slots for connectors.
 For polishing/buffing shells , its of no use.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Ok, so this one has thrown me for a loop, the four driver I've been playing with will has a horrible read on the coupler. In actuality it sounds relatively clean and has suitable bass. The kicker is I've spent all this time and effort and think I created a UE900 clone. 

I mean when I have the prototype in one ear and the ue900 in the other they sound identical, I can't really tell the difference at all. 

Here is a pic of the protype shelled up. I didn't do any finishing or polishing.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

I will draw the crossover out later and post, maybe someone can throw it together and test to confirm it's performance!


----------



## Squirg




----------



## Squirg

squirg said:


>


 
 Just finished these today -- CI/ED dual driver.  First time working with Kirinite and really pleased with how easy it is to work with! Getting better at mixing colors too.  Thanks again for all your tips!


----------



## Shilohsjustice

squirg said:


> Just finished these today -- CI/ED dual driver.  First time working with Kirinite and really pleased with how easy it is to work with! Getting better at mixing colors too.  Thanks again for all your tips!


 

 Yep, I just fell in love!!!!!!!!!! Those are beautiful!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Shilohsjustice

shilohsjustice said:


> I will draw the crossover out later and post, maybe someone can throw it together and test to confirm it's performance!


 
 Here is my current version layout.......


----------



## Cutty

squirg said:


> Just finished these today -- CI/ED dual driver.  First time working with Kirinite and really pleased with how easy it is to work with! Getting better at mixing colors too.  Thanks again for all your tips!


 
 What was your crossover design?


----------



## Xymordos

shilohsjustice said:


> Here is my current version layout.......


 
  
 Can I ask why did you use two resistors in series like that?


----------



## Dellwolf

xymordos said:


> Can I ask why did you use two resistors in series like that?


Just my input, but I've never seen a 68.4 ohm resistor in my life, so I'd suspect that's why.


----------



## Xymordos

But 0.4ohm should barely change the sound no? Changing the cable probably will have the same effect.


----------



## Dellwolf

xymordos said:


> But 0.4ohm should barely change the sound no? Changing the cable probably will have the same effect.


Not exactly, with the rest of the circuit being wired in parallel, it would have greater effect on the overall impedance of the IEM.


----------



## Dellwolf

I would think the cable would effect it less than the resistor.


----------



## bartzky

muzo2 said:


> I have Dremel and works well for smoothing impressions and drilling holes in acrylic (diamond burs) also to make slots for connectors.
> *For polishing/buffing shells , its of no use.*


 
 May you elaborate why it is of no use and what you use instead?


----------



## Mogol

Here is my 2cc coupler. It`s made of 1/4" water hose. Or rather nut and fitting only. Plumbing and acoustics were close to each other as never before =)
  
 I made some calculations, added rubber gasket for removing the excess volume and put a mic inside (Panasonic WM-61a).The measurement results (blue line) similar with those what I did in the center of the hearing aid (yellow line). I do not pretend to the accuracy of measurements, but i hope that this device will help when working on two and three way systems. It`s cheap, but at the same time solid.
  
 I hope some of you will find it helpful.


----------



## Senor CIEM

1st Pair of Universal Fits are done:
 http://imgur.com/a/YEJqi (can't include pictures here?)
  
 GQ, 2cm tube, green damper 5mm away from the spout.
 I worked very exactly on the tube length for both sides, and the stereo image is massive!


----------



## myemaildw

what do you do about soder that just won't stick to wire?


----------



## Bad Username

myemaildw said:


> what do you do about soder that just won't stick to wire?


 
 Not enough heat. Turn the iron to max temp, or buy a higher power one. My 230W solder gun tins wires beautifully.
  
 Don't use that for drivers though!


----------



## GeneBush

This is my first pair of ciem with GK31732. They sound good. Thanks a lot guys, i've learned a lot from this forum. Looking forward to experiment with new crossovers and drivers.


----------



## MuZo2

@GeneBush and @Senor CIEM very nice work on your first ciems.


----------



## ForceMajeure

myemaildw said:


> what do you do about soder that just won't stick to wire?


 
 Try to clean the solder tip, apply flux and try again.
 If it doesn't stick then your solder tip is oxidized. I don't recommend working with a bad solder tip, it will only bring more frustration. you might need to replace it.
 There are a few steps in order to take care of the soldering tip every time you solder.
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krxTfZCFptk
  
 Do what he says but only use the brass for cleaning everytime instead of the wet sponge. Don't leave the solder iron on if you don't use it after 5 min or at least lower the temp if you have a temperature controller.
 ALWAYS re apply tin after you cleaned your tip so it protects your solder tip


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Ok, so I'm super pleased with the sound of the 4-driver setup I posted above. At first the highs seemed a bit sharp ran through my iPhone, but once plugged into my fiio x3 it transformed into something very pleasing to me. 

I used the 0.4ohm resistor in series because my resistor kit jumped from 68ohm - 75ohm. The 75ohm sounded muddled to me, and adding the 0.4ohm changed the frequency draw enough to round out the bass. It is definitely something someone could build off and refine, I just hope if someone fixes or improves the crossover they will post it as I did. 

I ended up finishing them and plan on putting 40hrs of music through them to see if break in will further warm the sound.

Here are a few pics of what they turned into.


----------



## jbr1971

shilohsjustice said:


> Ok, so I'm super pleased with the sound of the 4-driver setup I posted above. At first the highs seemed a bit sharp ran through my iPhone, but once plugged into my fiio x3 it transformed into something very pleasing to me.
> 
> I used the 0.4ohm resistor in series because my resistor kit jumped from 68ohm - 75ohm. The 75ohm sounded muddled to me, and adding the 0.4ohm changed the frequency draw enough to round out the bass. It is definitely something someone could build off and refine, I just hope if someone fixes or improves the crossover they will post it as I did.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Did you have a chance to compare the FR/sound with the faceplate on and off?
  
 I am still curious how much of a difference (if any) it makes with the HODVTEC ports uncovered.


----------



## Xymordos

Wow I really didn't expect 0.4ohms to make such a big difference.
  
 I really like that transparent nozzle, think that looks very nice


----------



## ForceMajeure

jbr1971 said:


> Did you have a chance to compare the FR/sound with the faceplate on and off?
> 
> I am still curious how much of a difference (if any) it makes with the HODVTEC ports uncovered.


 
 Give him an excuse to break this one and test it so he could build another one


----------



## bartzky

shilohsjustice said:


> Here is my current version layout.......


 
 Thanks for sharing your layout!
 Did you calculate the xo frequency of the highpass?


----------



## ForceMajeure

bartzky said:


> Thanks for sharing your layout!
> Did you calculate the xo frequency of the highpass?


 
 BTW 0.82uf to the wbfk driver of the twfk is what UE uses in the ue900, ue700... they have it soldered directly to the twfk


----------



## Shilohsjustice

forcemajeure said:


> BTW 0.82uf to the wbfk driver of the twfk is what UE uses in the ue900, ue700... they have it soldered directly to the twfk




From all the research I have done, 0.47uf and 0.82uf are the most common filters used on the TWFK. I tried the 0.47uf cap and didnt care for the sound.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

jbr1971 said:


> Did you have a chance to compare the FR/sound with the faceplate on and off?
> 
> I am still curious how much of a difference (if any) it makes with the HODVTEC ports uncovered.


 

I couldn't notice a difference with faceplate off and faceplate on. I seal the nozzle thoroughly as well as ensure my faceplates are sealed so I wonder if the empty cavity is enough to absorb the extra sound pressure without it translating through the spout. It did not read different for me either, but I think I'm having an issue with my coupler and I need to calibrate it.


----------



## drumkendrum

What do you guys use to measure what sound levels the monitors are putting out typically?


----------



## jbr1971

shilohsjustice said:


> I couldn't notice a difference with faceplate off and faceplate on. I seal the nozzle thoroughly as well as ensure my faceplates are sealed so I wonder if the empty cavity is enough to absorb the extra sound pressure without it translating through the spout. It did not read different for me either, but I think I'm having an issue with my coupler and I need to calibrate it.


 
  
 Interesting. Given my experience with adjusting cavity volume and port sizes with full-sized headphones, and the difference it makes with bass, etc, I would have thought there would be a difference.
  
 The BAs and ports must be small enough that the cavity volume would have to be extra small (maybe just enough to hold the driver plus a bit) before it would start to affect output.
  
 Thanks for checking.


----------



## myemaildw

Is there a very technical sparkle ba to add to my iem? In relation to soder I mean soder not stick to wire, it sticks to tip not to wire. I've cranked temperature to 450 and used the greaseptic. Sometimes wires doesn't take soder


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Ok so I'm working on version 5..... I added a 0.47uf cap to the FK side of the TWFK in addition to the 0.82uf cap on the WBFK side, this has taken the highs down a notch more pleasing to the ear. I'm going to shell this pair up and compare it to my other set I finished up yesterday. Here is a pic.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Here is version (5) 4-driver.


----------



## myemaildw

shilohsjustice said:


> Here is version (5) 4-driver.




totally immersed in resin? nice


----------



## Shilohsjustice

myemaildw said:


> totally immersed in resin? nice




Thanks, they are hollow shells, not filled with resin. They sound better than version 4, more detailed in sound.


----------



## GeneBush

muzo2 said:


> @GeneBush and @Senor CIEM very nice work on your first ciems.


@muZo2 Thnx a lot mate 
@Senor CIEM where did you find that cable? Very nice work man!


----------



## myemaildw

what strength resistors do I need for sparkle ba and 32 ohm dap?


----------



## shdh

shilohsjustice said:


> Here is version (5) 4-driver.


 
 Beautiful work. Well done


----------



## Andrumgt

Is there a specific way for faceplate buildup?
Is everyone 3d printing them, or how do you make them the perfect size?


----------



## MuZo2

Everyone here use manual process, if you check last few pages you will find complete tutorial.


----------



## bartzky

Has anyone tried those Estron BA drivers yet? They have been discussed serveral months ago: [@]http://www.head-fi.org/t/430688/home-made-iems/4725#post_12589235[/@]


----------



## nocchi

bartzky said:


> Has anyone tried those Estron BA drivers yet? They have been discussed serveral months ago: [@]http://www.head-fi.org/t/430688/home-made-iems/4725#post_12589235[/@]




Estron = Shenzhen Bellsing Acoustic right?

If yes I'm using their WBFK version, sounds identical to a knowles wbfk

Edit:
Oops looks like I'm using a bellsing BA and not estron one.


----------



## bartzky

nocchi said:


> Estron = Shenzhen Bellsing Acoustic right?



Thanks! Well, I thought Estron and Bellsing were identical. Are they not?


----------



## piotrus-g

bartzky said:


> Thanks! Well, I thought Estron and Bellsing were identical. Are they not?


 

 I think they are the same company.


----------



## Cutty

Just made a $10 single BA. Used a $1.50 CI-30120, no dampers, and cheap dynamic housings from taobao.


----------



## Trying2Learn

cutty said:


> Just made a $10 single BA. Used a $1.50 CI-30120, no dampers, and cheap dynamic housings from taobao.


Pics?


----------



## J-breezy

shilohsjustice said:


> Here is version (5) 4-driver.




How do you get both tubes down into a universal canal that is so small?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

j-breezy said:


> How do you get both tubes down into a universal canal that is so small?




I plan on working on some later today, I will post some pics of my process.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

j-breezy said:


> How do you get both tubes down into a universal canal that is so small?




Here is PART 1 of my current method of making universals. 

Material:
Investment
Blue Dreve Fotoplast 
Glycerin
99% isopropyl alcohol

With my current light, 365nm it takes approximately 1min 40sec for the blue Fotoplast to cure at an ideal thickness. 

After initial cure I pour out the excess and cure for another 1min 40sec. 

From there I pop the seal and pull it out of the investment. 

It goes straight into glycerin, so it's surrounded and filled, back under UV light for 8minutes to cure the inhibition layer inside the shell. 

I pull it from the glycerin, drain, and put it into the 99% isopropyl alcohol. I'll swirl it around and use a small nylon brush to clean the inside and exterior of the shell. I work it in the alcohol until I am sure all the glycerin has been flushed from the inside. 

I shake out the excess and trim so it's ready for next steps. 

Below pic is straight out of the investment. 



Below is trimmed and cleaned up a bit 



From here I'll do a good clean on it to get the dust out......(Bonus Tip - I'll take a blow dryer and heat up the inside to dry-up the alchol and then wipe inside with a que-tip, this will give you the smooth glass like interior that everyone envy's.)

If you do not heat up the inside and you try to wipe it out you'll get smeer marks. 

After that I buff the shell to get the smooth glass like surface. I usually only spend a few minutes here because I complete a thourough buffing once it is fully assembled. 

Below is a pic of the buffed shell, all left is to drill hole for my mmcx female jack. (I do this after I buff so the buffing compound doesn't get stuck on the inside of the drilled hole, again just my method.)



Below is the steps listed above in order, this is also the method I use when making custom shells just slightly modified. 

Method:
1. Place investment into uv chamber, expose to uv for 1min 40sec (for clear I expose for 1min 30 sec, please note that my machine has to kick the lights on so deduct 3-4 seconds for my machine to engage all the lights.)
2. Dump excess, re-expose for 1min 40sec. 
3. Place into glycerin bath, expose for 8min. 
4. Remove and place into isopropyl alcohol, work until all glycerin is removed. 
5. Trim and smith any areas. I drill out the spout so it's wide open, I use a dremel tip. 
6. Rinse again in alcohol, with blow dryer heat interior of the shell until its dry (there may be small spots, but will wipe out beautifully) wipe out with cotton swab/ que-tip. 
7. Buff the shell to prep for assembly. 

From here I will drill the hole for the mmcx female connector, assembly so my tubes are out of the spout. I will show this process in PART 2 so stay tuned. I hope this helps!!


----------



## Mogol

I'm trying to do faceplates like the UE show in their video using slices of the shell. But the acrylic hardens unevenly. The surface is not smooth, with the small hollows.

 I use Egger LP/H, and the nail lamp 36 watts. What am I doing wrong?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

mogol said:


> I'm trying to do faceplates like the UE show in their video using slices of the shell. But the acrylic hardens unevenly. The surface is not smooth, with the small hollows.
> 
> 
> I use Egger LP/H, and the nail lamp 36 watts. What am I doing wrong?




Have you tried sanding and then buffing?


----------



## Mogol

shilohsjustice said:


> Have you tried sanding and then buffing?


 
 It would be great to do without sanding, just buffing. Because in this case, it will be necessary to remove a large layer. It negates all the advantages of such a method, liquid acrylic and hardened very different in form. 
 This does not happen when using epoxy or resin jewelry.


----------



## ForceMajeure

mogol said:


> It would be great to do without sanding, just buffing. Because in this case, it will be necessary to remove a large layer. It negates all the advantages of such a method, liquid acrylic and hardened very different in form.
> This does not happen when using epoxy or resin jewelry.


 
 You'll have to sand the side anyway once you glue it to the shell.
 A big part of making a good looking shell is sanding and buffing, UE does it too.
  
 When pouring the resin to make the faceplate try to even it with some kind of spudger. it will make it more uniform, you'll also be able to get rid of bubbles if you have some.
 In case of tenacious air bubbles, either let it sit or heat them prior to curing so the bubbles will go to the surface


----------



## Xymordos

Any smaller sized bass driver people recommend that isn't vented? I want to try something that's not CI, together with a dynamic driver


----------



## Shilohsjustice

xymordos said:


> Any smaller sized bass driver people recommend that isn't vented? I want to try something that's not CI, together with a dynamic driver




Have you ever tried the ED-30761? It has a nice sound to it, paired with a dynamic it would probably compliment it well!

It doesn't have a spout though, I heat my typing and stretch it to go around it.


----------



## Xymordos

I've never previously considered an ED as a bass driver 
  
 It seems there's no datasheet available for this one?
  
 Edit: nvm, found one - it's a vented driver though.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

It's buried for whatever reason. Took me a while to find one as well. I'll post the link anyways. 

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/23865811/ED-30761-000.pdf


----------



## Shilohsjustice

xymordos said:


> I've never previously considered an ED as a bass driver
> 
> It seems there's no datasheet available for this one?
> 
> Edit: nvm, found one - it's a vented driver though.




Because of the manner in which I stretch the tubing over the driver it seals the vent.


----------



## Xymordos

shilohsjustice said:


> Because of the manner in which I stretch the tubing over the driver it seals the vent.


 
  
 Would that make the response the same as the ED23147? Just saw that the two drivers are very similar, except the vent. Would closing the vent cause any issues with the driver?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

xymordos said:


> Would that make the response the same as the ED23147? Just saw that the two drivers are very similar, except the vent. Would closing the vent cause any issues with the driver?




I find the bass to be warm and fulfilling with the vent covered.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

shilohsjustice said:


> I find the bass to be warm and fulfilling with the vent covered.




I have not tried the 23147.


----------



## Xymordos

Sounds unlike an ED driver heh, I'll try that. That seems like a driver that meets my needs, thanks!


----------



## piotrus-g

xymordos said:


> Any smaller sized bass driver people recommend that isn't vented? I want to try something that's not CI, together with a dynamic driver


 
 BK? TEC?


----------



## Xymordos

piotrus-g said:


> BK? TEC?


 
  
 BK would be too big - I want to try using a Dynamic together with a BA as low end.


----------



## piotrus-g

xymordos said:


> BK would be too big - I want to try using a Dynamic together with a BA as low end.


 

 Then TEC (Sonion 3100/3500) is your next bet. ED could be used but ED has fairly high THD for LF (typically). If you need something super small Sonion 2600 would be next thing.


----------



## Xymordos

piotrus-g said:


> Then TEC (Sonion 3100/3500) is your next bet. ED could be used but ED has fairly high THD for LF (typically). If you need something super small Sonion 2600 would be next thing.


 
  
 Thanks for the information. Is BK even better than the DTEC/TEC?


----------



## piotrus-g

xymordos said:


> Thanks for the information. Is BK even better than the DTEC/TEC?


 

 better? just different. BK is thicker sounding it's like mini CI with fairly good midrange. TEC/DTEC has rather tight low compared to CI/BK but midrange is cleaner and more lush.


----------



## kirshman

Sorry if this has been asked several times.  I tried to search the post, but even that is overwhelming.  Where do you buy the accoustic tubing.  I've been able to find everything else I want, but that part.  It seems like #13 and #16 are common when reading through this.  Thanks for any direction!


----------



## myemaildw

are there dampeners to get rid of sibilance on sparkle balanced armature? How does it affect other parts of ba sound?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

kirshman said:


> Sorry if this has been asked several times.  I tried to search the post, but even that is overwhelming.  Where do you buy the accoustic tubing.  I've been able to find everything else I want, but that part.  It seems like #13 and #16 are common when reading through this.  Thanks for any direction!




#13 is what I use as it takes knowles dampers really well. I buy my tubing directly from westone.com, it's .35 cents per foot. It's free to create an account with them, they not only sell iem's they also sell things like tubing and tools for the hearing industry.


----------



## Squirg

shilohsjustice said:


> Here is PART 1 of my current method of making universals.
> 
> Material:
> Investment
> ...


 
 Dude!  Thanks for the tip on the hair dryer method!  I hate those smear marks!!!


----------



## Shilohsjustice




----------



## Xymordos

That sounds pretty good - I'll try the TEC/3100 as well as the ED.


----------



## sanekn

kirshman said:


> Sorry if this has been asked several times.  I tried to search the post, but even that is overwhelming.  Where do you buy the accoustic tubing.  I've been able to find everything else I want, but that part.  It seems like #13 and #16 are common when reading through this.  Thanks for any direction!



Hello, I personnally buy everything iem related (except fotoplast and glysol) on aliexpress, Soundlink. Those guys are golden, standard shipping is slow tho.

And thank you very much Shilohsjustice for your job and efforts to give us this very useful awesome information. Really appreciate this. Youre like a Jesus of iems here to gide us haha


----------



## ForceMajeure

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!






>


 
  


  


shilohsjustice said:


>


 

 You could try to use a bit with a diameter close to the end result inner diameter.
 Wrap it in plastic wrap, put it inside the straw and cure the resin between the 2 elements.
 once cured this could save you drilling a hole in that acrylic tube


----------



## Shilohsjustice

forcemajeure said:


> You could try to use a bit with a diameter close to the end result inner diameter.
> Wrap it in plastic wrap, put it inside the straw and cure the resin between the 2 elements.
> once cured this could save you drilling a hole in that acrylic tube




I tried writing each step out last night but after spending 30min on it, I lost it all which is why I only posted the pics. So below you will find my process. If it doesn't make sense just let me know and I will further explain. 

That is close to what I do, I cut the large tubing close to the base of the shell, and then I slide small diameter tubing into the large as pictured. I use a straw to make a nice spout, I use a Dremel bit to hollow the the spout I made in the straw out. I slide the now hollow spout over the small tubing so it touched the base of the shell, I secure it to the base with clear Fotoplast and fill with clear Fotoplast. I cure and pull the small tubing out so it leaves two perfect canals. I take some cotton and place a small piece into each canal so I can sand down the spout to the length I like, I leave the cotton in there so I can trim the faceplate and buff to prevent dust from getting in there. I pull the two pieces of cotton and there you have it.


----------



## ForceMajeure

shilohsjustice said:


> I tried writing each step out last night but after spending 30min on it, I lost it all which is why I only posted the pics. So below you will find my process. If it doesn't make sense just let me know and I will further explain.
> 
> That is close to what I do, I cut the large tubing close to the base of the shell, and then I slide small diameter tubing into the large as pictured. *I use a straw to make a nice spout, I use a Dremel bit to hollow the the spout I made in the straw out.* I slide the now hollow spout over the small tubing so it touched the base of the shell, I secure it to the base with clear Fotoplast and fill with clear Fotoplast. I cure and pull the small tubing out so it leaves two perfect canals. I take some cotton and place a small piece into each canal so I can sand down the spout to the length I like, I leave the cotton in there so I can trim the faceplate and buff to prevent dust from getting in there. I pull the two pieces of cotton and there you have it.


 
 Yeah I figured the whole process.
  
 I was suggesting using a cylindrical piece wrapped with plastic wrap or something the Fotoplast won't adhere to with a slightly smaller diameter than the straw. Insert it inside the straw so it gives you the option to only fill the "walls" of the "spout to be" with the resin and then cure it.
 Now you don't have to drill a hole inside this extension spout.


----------



## MuZo2

Why do you make the nozzle later and not part of shell?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

forcemajeure said:


> Yeah I figured the whole process.
> 
> I was suggesting using a cylindrical piece wrapped with plastic wrap or something the Fotoplast won't adhere to with a slightly smaller diameter than the straw. Insert it inside the straw so it gives you the option to only fill the "walls" of the "spout to be" with the resin and then cure it.
> Now you don't have to drill a hole inside this extension spout.




Oh, gotcha!! :thumbsup_tone1:, I'll have to give that a try. I do a similar technique when I'm making a universal with horn style spout. I need to find a better tool than the straw as it is not perfectly round. 

On a side note, I ordered some synchronous motors to make the "rotator", is any one interested in me posting a tutorial on how to make it when I get all the parts. It's perfect for when you have coated your iem's with Laquer and want a nice even coat?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

muzo2 said:


> Why do you make the nozzle later and not part of shell?




More control ove the quality, it's hard to get two #13 tubes through the spout and I have ruined too many shells trying to drill out the spout so now I do them separately. My universal shell design is rather small and tight so it also gives me a bit more room to work.


----------



## J-breezy

shilohsjustice said:


> Oh, gotcha!! :thumbsup_tone1:, I'll have to give that a try. I do a similar technique when I'm making a universal with horn style spout. I need to find a better tool than the straw as it is not perfectly round.
> 
> On a side note, I ordered some synchronous motors to make the "rotator", is any one interested in me posting a tutorial on how to make it when I get all the parts. It's perfect for when you have coated your iem's with Laquer and want a nice even coat?




I would definitely be interested in the tutorial. All of your info has been SUPER helpful! 
In the past I've gotten lac 3 all over the iem and it all looked great and even and then when I put it under the UV light there are these little hard parts that stick up sometimes in the hardening process I guess. And of course by the time I see them form under the light and pull them out they are already hard. Which makes me have to sand the iem again which is kind of defeating the purpose of use the lac 3. Have you ever experienced anything like this?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

j-breezy said:


> I would definitely be interested in the tutorial. All of your info has been SUPER helpful!
> In the past I've gotten lac 3 all over the iem and it all looked great and even and then when I put it under the UV light there are these little hard parts that stick up sometimes in the hardening process I guess. And of course by the time I see them form under the light and pull them out they are already hard. Which makes me have to sand the iem again which is kind of defeating the purpose of use the lac 3. Have you ever experienced anything like this?




Yes I've experienced this, usually if you coat it then put it right under the light you get this. I believe it's from areas that have a thicker coat. If I Lak3 I will put it on the rotator for several minutes before exposing to uv. I usually do a couple quick passes with my uv flashlight to get the surface before putting in the uv chamber. I'll have to do a video for everyone on the Lak3 technique I use. Maybe this weekend I'll get to post something like that.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

I took the universals out today for test drive, sound great!! I had to play some Dream Theater to get a good taste of their capabilities!!!


----------



## bartzky

I was looking for litz wires and came across this Block CLI 200/15: http://www.block.eu/en_IN/products/720976.htm

Has anyone used something like this before?

The look reminds me of the super-ultra-extreme-high quality wires used for the HUM Pristine. Coincidentally they both are 15*0.1mm pure copper wires made in Germany...
Funny though that the Block litz wires are super cheap. They're about 22€ for 128m while that buys about 10m of Estron litz.


----------



## MuZo2

Estron are super thin, Block CLI 200 doesnt look like.


----------



## bartzky

The Estron wires have a diameter of 0.4mm. That calculates into an effective cross section of about 0.126mm^2. So the Block CLI 200/15 is even slightly thinner with it's 0.118mm^2.


----------



## ForceMajeure

Probably an April fool's Day thing
 I count around 30 drivers per side


----------



## Shilohsjustice

forcemajeure said:


> Probably an April fool's Day thing
> I count around 30 drivers per side




I think it's legit, I see 20 drivers. Likely to compete with the 64 audio 18. Very much marketing and unlikely to to notice significant differences. Why would they do it?? To say they are the first and because they can!!!!!


----------



## Bad Username

shilohsjustice said:


> I think it's legit, I see 20 drivers. Likely to compete with the 64 audio 18. Very much marketing and unlikely to to notice significant differences. Why would they do it?? To say they are the first and because they can!!!!!




Yeah, ridiculous. It will probably end up being like a 5way. In which case they could have just used 5 drivers.


----------



## WhiteKnite

bad username said:


> Yeah, ridiculous. It will probably end up being like a 5way. In which case they could have just used 5 drivers.


 Not entirely true. With the SPL summation you could cause yourself to go completely deaf before experiencing distortion, rather than just cause permanent damage.


----------



## UNOE

I finally received my first drivers quad GV's for my first build. I have never owned any CIEM before I have nothing to compare it to really.


----------



## ForceMajeure

follow up about that JH behemoth include vid
 https://www.facebook.com/JHAudio/videos/10155724875519041/


----------



## Dellwolf

Well, last year for April Fool's Empire Ears made a 24-driver(per side) IEM, that actually worked, but they didn't use any crossovers in it.


----------



## Bad Username

Lol so it's 64 drivers per side. Looks like it's just a joke to make fun of 64audio.


----------



## Andrumgt

Any of you use the small plastic dampers from knowles?they are smaller in diameter than the classic metallic dampers.
I have two diameters:1,76 and 1,5. Or something like that, i can't remember exactly.
The question is, how do you install such small dampers?knowles has a special tool, but it costs a fortune, 280$.
I have a tool from soundlink, a tap, but it only works for the metallic dampers.
Any ideas?!


----------



## drumkendrum

Do you use the 13" thick or medium grade tubing?


----------



## J-breezy

andrumgt said:


> Any of you use the small plastic dampers from knowles?they are smaller in diameter than the classic metallic dampers.
> I have two diameters:1,76 and 1,5. Or something like that, i can't remember exactly.
> The question is, how do you install such small dampers?knowles has a special tool, but it costs a fortune, 280$.
> I have a tool from soundlink, a tap, but it only works for the metallic dampers.
> Any ideas?!




I used those dampers in my last build cause I had to run smaller tubing (#16) for the CI cause I couldn't get two #13 tubes down the canal. I had some small diameter (but fairly stiff) copper wire around the house. So I cut a piece off and made a mark at 7mm so I'd know when to stop pushing the damper. It worked great! I believe the diameter of the dampers I used was 1.12. Something like that.


----------



## Xymordos

Just saw the JH Lola announcement - I actually tried something like that with the dynamic drivers before - I stuck 2 dynamic drivers (the same one) face to face and left a hole for the sound vent (similar configuration to a dual BA driver). It actually sounded really good! It was better than the single dynamic driver version I also made with the same driver. However, as the sound vent is quite small, it cuts off the high frequency quite sharply at 8kHz for me, and although the bass looks good on the frequency response, it sounded too soft. 
  
 If you guys can get hold of dynamic drivers, it'll probably be a good idea to try the JH configuration


----------



## ForceMajeure

xymordos said:


> Just saw the JH Lola announcement - I actually tried something like that with the dynamic drivers before - I stuck 2 dynamic drivers (the same one) face to face and left a hole for the sound vent (similar configuration to a dual BA driver). It actually sounded really good! It was better than the single dynamic driver version I also made with the same driver. However, as the sound vent is quite small, it cuts off the high frequency quite sharply at 8kHz for me, and although the bass looks good on the frequency response, it sounded too soft.
> 
> If you guys can get hold of dynamic drivers, it'll probably be a good idea to try the JH configuration


 
  
 I know that Kumitate-labs also uses that technique for their kumitate REF, they use a 3d printed enclosure to mount both drivers facing each others. Kumitate also have a special tube in addition to the tube going to the nozzle, that allows them to control the pressure so their is no driver flex upon installation. 
  
  Kumitate use their solution for Bass, JH use it for mids.
  
 Nevertheless it's very interesting.


----------



## Xymordos

forcemajeure said:


> I know that Kumitate-labs also uses that technique for their kumitate REF, they use a 3d printed enclosure to mount both drivers facing each others. Kumitate also have a special tube in addition to the tube going to the nozzle, that allows them to control the pressure so their is no driver flex upon installation.
> 
> Kumitate use their solution for Bass, JH use it for mids.
> 
> Nevertheless it's very interesting.


 
  
 I used this round sticker thing (that usually lets you stick the driver to the shell of the iem) and cut a slit in one side, and instead of sticking it onto the shell, I stuck another driver on it. Then I trace the edge with resin to harden it.


----------



## piotrus-g

xymordos said:


> Just saw the JH Lola announcement - I actually tried something like that with the dynamic drivers before - I stuck 2 dynamic drivers (the same one) face to face and left a hole for the sound vent (similar configuration to a dual BA driver). It actually sounded really good! It was better than the single dynamic driver version I also made with the same driver. However, as the sound vent is quite small, it cuts off the high frequency quite sharply at 8kHz for me, and although the bass looks good on the frequency response, it sounded too soft.
> 
> If you guys can get hold of dynamic drivers, it'll probably be a good idea to try the JH configuration


 

 I experimented with something like this too, and there is already Brainwavz R3 which uses _the exact same concept _for dual dynamics





 So I have no idea how the patent is going to go through for this, but you know... I wish good luck to JH!


----------



## Xymordos

Interesting, I never actually seen this design in IEMs before, other than ATH's dual phase drivers. Is this common in speakers?
  
 Have you tried it before? For my design I didn't leave much space between the drivers, around only 1mm of space only, which might be why the bass sounds so soft.


----------



## piotrus-g

xymordos said:


> Interesting, I never actually seen this design in IEMs before, other than ATH's dual phase drivers. Is this common in speakers?
> 
> Have you tried it before? For my design I didn't leave much space between the drivers, around only 1mm of space only, which might be why the bass sounds so soft.


 

 I'm fairly sure you'll be able to find this solution for floor speaker subwoofers.
  
 I did leave around 2mm space for tubing and it was enough to get pretty much whole spectrum out of it.


----------



## ForceMajeure

Using both drivers in pushpull config (wiring one in reverse phase) one would gain from the magnetic flux in a small form factor with lower distortion and better harmonics, sure the drivers need to have great tolerances.
 Now the question is, How would someone get the desire frequency range from using this technique though?
 I am guessing JH uses smaller diameter bores to control the high pass and both 4.9mm drivers bass freq is controlled from the back damping of the drivers.
  
 Or maybe is using reactive components for Low/High/Band Pass?


----------



## Andrumgt

J-breezy
But how will you take them out of the tube?
And, if they're fairly stiff, how do you get a decent seal between them and the tube?
I have all kind of acoustic tubing, from dreve, from egger, from aliex, from taobao, neither ff them fits the dampers.They're either a fraction too tight(i'm talking about the tubing), so the damper cant slide easily like the metallic ones, and get torn apart, because they are fragile and don't stand the force of pushing them into the tube, or they're either too loose and the damper isnt sealing the tube.


----------



## Xymordos

For push pull, the ATH push pull drivers have a hole on the back of one of the drivers, and the sound comes from the back of one driver rather than between two drivers.
  
 From what I heard in the video, both drives in the JH are running in the same phase rather than push-pull.


----------



## J-breezy

andrumgt said:


> J-breezy
> But how will you take them out of the tube?
> And, if they're fairly stiff, how do you get a decent seal between them and the tube?
> I have all kind of acoustic tubing, from dreve, from egger, from aliex, from taobao, neither ff them fits the dampers.They're either a fraction too tight(i'm talking about the tubing), so the damper cant slide easily like the metallic ones, and get torn apart, because they are fragile and don't stand the force of pushing them into the tube, or they're either too loose and the damper isnt sealing the tube.




Why would you want to take them out of the tube once they are in? 
And the dampers were definitely a bit on the looser side going in (compared to the metal ones) so its probably not creating a perfect seal but I figured if the damper was in there at all then it would have to block some of those frequencies lol. Idk. All I know is that I put them in using stiff copper wire as my pusher and while it may not be a perfect seal, the damper is tight enough in the tube that it's not going to be moving around. I'm using Westone #16 tubing but I would assume all #16 tubing would be the same in diameter. 
Someone else might be able to answer some of this better and there's probably a better process. I'm just experimenting but my triple sounded good when I got done with it so I was happy.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

FYI.....

Mouser added the 4 driver Knowles GV to their catalog. 

Here is the link for the data sheet. 

And here is the Mouser pricing break down.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

shilohsjustice said:


> FYI.....
> 
> Mouser added the 4 driver Knowles GV to their catalog.
> 
> ...




I ordered 2 from Mouser, estimated ship date is May 30th for those wanting to know when they will have them in stock.


----------



## napka

andrumgt said:


> knowles has a special tool, but it costs a fortune, 280$.


 
  
 Knowles tool's diameter is slightly larger than #13 tubing inner diameter, no chance it will fit into #16.


----------



## Andrumgt

napka said:


> Knowles tool's diameter is slightly larger than #13 tubing inner diameter, no chance it will fit into #16.



Yeah, it's 2.6mm, I just saw it.


----------



## UNOE

I'm trying to make a cable for my IEM's.  Can anyone advise if these two are good choices?  Or if there is anything better for wire or connectors.
  
 0.78 2 pin
 https://www.aliexpress.com/item/0-78mm-Earphone-Cable-Pin-For-UM-Unique-Melody-Miracle-Merlin-Mage-Mentor-AERO-Marvel-MASON/32461395121.html
  
 Wire
 https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1-3m-Semi-finished-400-Wires-Extreme-Soft-Silver-OCC-Alloy-Signal-Teflon-AFT-Earphone-Headphone/32662248946.html?ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_1_10152_10065_10151_10068_10130_10150_10136_10137_10060_10138_9999_10062_10141_10056_10055_10054_10059_10099_129_10103_10102_10096_10148_10147_10052_10053_10142_10107_10050_10143_10051_10084_10083_10080_10082_10081_10110_10111_10112_10113_10114_10078_10079_10073_10070_10123_10124-9999,searchweb201603_6,afswitch_1,ppcSwitch_5&btsid=3a297b3d-0a0e-4e7a-a024-a1d800c96528&algo_expid=c024a84b-5542-4204-a4b4-a24d2ad08db0-25&algo_pvid=c024a84b-5542-4204-a4b4-a24d2ad08db0
  
 I'm confident I have the right jacks already and 3.5mm connector.  I'm just not certain if wire would be good for the price.  I like copper sound signature.  So would even consider a better copper if I knew were to get it.


----------



## ForceMajeure

unoe said:


> I'm trying to make a cable for my IEM's.  Can anyone advise if these two are good choices?  Or if there is anything better for wire or connectors.
> 
> 0.78 2 pin
> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/0-78mm-Earphone-Cable-Pin-For-UM-Unique-Melody-Miracle-Merlin-Mage-Mentor-AERO-Marvel-MASON/32461395121.html
> ...


 
 Question is, how soft the wire is? And, will it turn green over time (the silver color part)?
 This need to be checked. Usually teflon insulation is less supple than TPE insulation if I am not mistaken but the description says it's "Extremely Soft ,Low Elasticity, Low Stethoscope Effect, And easy to soldering"
 That wire looks good though. I guess you'll have to buy it to check for us  ...


----------



## sanekn

Hello guys! Just made myself a universal workbench haha. For ciem making and gaming whatnot haha


----------



## Mogol

unoe said:


> I'm trying to make a cable for my IEM's.  Can anyone advise if these two are good choices?  Or if there is anything better for wire or connectors.
> 
> 0.78 2 pin
> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/0-78mm-Earphone-Cable-Pin-For-UM-Unique-Melody-Miracle-Merlin-Mage-Mentor-AERO-Marvel-MASON/32461395121.html
> ...


 
  
 I made several cables from a similar wire. Acrolink 53x0.05 strands from the same seller. Wires look great and did not turn green with time.
 To my regret, they all had a stethoscopic effect. However, this did not stop me from selling them to people who heard noticeable sound improvements compared to standard cables. =)
  


  
 Maybe 100x0.05 will be better. I'd like to try. Later.
 ForceMajeure is right: you should try this cable and tell us=) Not such a great price.


----------



## UNOE

Thanks everyone for the answers I'll probably try it out.

What do you mean by stethosopic effect?


----------



## Dellwolf

unoe said:


> Thanks everyone for the answers I'll probably try it out.
> 
> What do you mean by stethosopic effect?


Microphonics/cable noise.


----------



## Mogol

unoe said:


> Thanks everyone for the answers I'll probably try it out.
> 
> What do you mean by stethosopic effect?


 
 I'm not sure about terminology. Stethoscope or microphone effect. It`s the same thing? I meant spurious noise from the wire. Friction about clothes, the touch of fingers, the wind - you can hear it all in your headphones.


----------



## Dellwolf

mogol said:


> I'm not sure about terminology. Stethoscope or microphone effect. It`s the same thing? I meant spurious noise from the wire. Friction about clothes, the touch of fingers, the wind - you can hear it all in your headphones.


I've always heard it be called microphonics or cable noise, but I knew what was meant by what was said.


----------



## WhiteKnite

Yes all of the Chinese Teflon coated wires I've made cables with have been extremely microphonic too.


----------



## SVTong

Hi Guys, I'm in need of a bit of help here.  One of the solder pads broke off of my GK driver.  Is there anything I can do to save it?  I'd rather not have to just toss it in the garbage...


----------



## Andrumgt

Are you talking about the ones on the PCB ?if so, it's easy, just resolder the wire anywhere, on the same circuit.
If it.s on the left side, just solder it to any negative on the drivers, if it.s the right side, solder it on the resistor directly.


----------



## SVTong

andrumgt said:


> Are you talking about the ones on the PCB ?if so, it's easy, just resolder the wire anywhere, on the same circuit.
> If it.s on the left side, just solder it to any negative on the drivers, if it.s the right side, solder it on the resistor directly.


 
 Perfect - I was hoping it would be workable.  Thanks so much!


----------



## Bribo

shilohsjustice said:


> Here is my current version layout.......


 
  
  
*Shilohsjustice, Thanks for posting up your crossover circuit and build.  I have almost all the parts to finish mine and have a couple of questions before I wire everything up:*
*1) Are your capacitors AC (non polarized) or DC (polarized)  ? My local electronics store told me there would be a difference when I went in to pick them up today. If possible could to link me to a source ?*
*2) Did you find that the addition of the .47 uf capacitor in your Version 5 made them better than version 4 ?  Have to made any other tweaks to the crossover design.*
*Thanks again for all your help,** *


----------



## J-breezy

Hey guys, I was going to try to make some kind of hybrid iem with a balanced armature and a dynamic. Problem is...I can't seem to find dynamic speakers to buy in the states. I've ordered some from aliexpress and they aren't here yet. Just wondering if anyone has gotten any from here in the states or if you just order them from over in China?


----------



## jbr1971

j-breezy said:


> Hey guys, I was going to try to make some kind of hybrid iem with a balanced armature and a dynamic. Problem is...I can't seem to find dynamic speakers to buy in the states. I've ordered some from aliexpress and they aren't here yet. Just wondering if anyone has gotten any from here in the states or if you just order them from over in China?


 
  
 I have purchased Geek Verb IEMs from other HF users and torn them apart for the dynamic drivers in them. They sound like crap in the Verbs, but when used in other implementations they can sound very good.
  
 I used a GK in addition to the dynamic and am very happy with the result. No additional crossover work, just a couple of dampers.


----------



## tomekk

My first prototype of universal housing. I'm going the right way, or maybe some tips?


----------



## Squirg

Hey Guys.  Any tips on how to tint fotoplast white?  I have most colors down, but white seems to be illusive...


----------



## Squirg

squirg said:


> Hey Guys.  Any tips on how to tint fotoplast white?  I have most colors down, but white seems to be illusive...


 
 Nevermind...found it!


----------



## Bribo

Hi Guys, I was wondering if anyone knows if the capacitors in a IEM crossover are DC-polarized or AC- non-polarized.  My knowledge of electronics is poor at best.
 Thanks,


----------



## bartzky

bribo said:


> Hi Guys, I was wondering if anyone knows if the capacitors in a IEM crossover are DC-polarized or AC- non-polarized.  My knowledge of electronics is poor at best.
> Thanks,



AC non-polarized


----------



## Mogol

squirg said:


> Nevermind...found it!


 
 Would you share with us?
 My experiments with colors are not successful. I've tried Acrylic Ink (it's mentioned here), epoxy resin dye (a local brand). The addition of any dye leads to uneven polymerization. Bumps, holes or wet layers are formed. Even with thoroughly stirring. Epoxy dye do not harden without hardener. So it would be nice to hear more from the community about the coloring of the shells and faceplates.


----------



## Squirg

mogol said:


> Would you share with us?
> My experiments with colors are not successful. I've tried Acrylic Ink (it's mentioned here), epoxy resin dye (a local brand). The addition of any dye leads to uneven polymerization. Bumps, holes or wet layers are formed. Even with thoroughly stirring. Epoxy dye do not harden without hardener. So it would be nice to hear more from the community about the coloring of the shells and faceplates.


 
 I have been through the exact same process!  I have spent a lot of cash at my local hobby stores with limited success.  Shiloh suggested this stuff...
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Resin-Obsession-transparent-color-pigments-1-ounce-bottle-epoxy-resin-crafts-/361395727088?var=&hash=item5424dd2af0mdcC3uNu5BQQxxlkDyY8p_A
  
 It is fantastic!  It mixes so easily and evenly and doesn't seem to interfere with the curing process.  Of course darker colors with extend your curing process but that is normal.  Give it a shot!


----------



## Mogol

squirg said:


> I have been through the exact same process!  I have spent a lot of cash at my local hobby stores with limited success.  Shiloh suggested this stuff...
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Resin-Obsession-transparent-color-pigments-1-ounce-bottle-epoxy-resin-crafts-/361395727088?var=&hash=item5424dd2af0mdcC3uNu5BQQxxlkDyY8p_A
> 
> It is fantastic!  It mixes so easily and evenly and doesn't seem to interfere with the curing process.  Of course darker colors with extend your curing process but that is normal.  Give it a shot!


 
 Tnx!
 You only used the transparent color or opaque too? One more question before I rushed to buy it - do I need a hardener for this dye? My local dye brand based on epoxy resin and will NEVER dry without hardener.


----------



## MuZo2

Its to be mixed with UV gel and cured as normal.


----------



## ziixtreme

mogol said:


> Would you share with us?
> My experiments with colors are not successful. I've tried Acrylic Ink (it's mentioned here), epoxy resin dye (a local brand). The addition of any dye leads to uneven polymerization. Bumps, holes or wet layers are formed. Even with thoroughly stirring. Epoxy dye do not harden without hardener. So it would be nice to hear more from the community about the coloring of the shells and faceplates.
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Squirg

mogol said:


> Tnx!
> You only used the transparent color or opaque too? One more question before I rushed to buy it - do I need a hardener for this dye? My local dye brand based on epoxy resin and will NEVER dry without hardener.


 
 Just mix with transparent and cure as normal.  Go easy though, a drop or two goes a long way.


----------



## ForceMajeure

Jerry explaining the technology behind the Lola


----------



## ziixtreme

forcemajeure said:


> Jerry explaining the technology behind the Lola




 Anybody wanna try this out? hehehe


----------



## Mogol

forcemajeure said:


> Jerry explaining the technology behind the Lola




  
 Personal laboratory of Jerry for scientific research? =)
 Can anyone identify the device to the right of the monitor? I think it is a crossover (black) and three headphone amplifier for 2-3-way IEM.
 I guess it's a good idea to turn the knobs, try different crossover frequencies, balance levels, phase etc.  And only then implement it at a physical resistors and capacitors.
 Or is it just my imagination...


----------



## MuZo2

Nice diy UV curing station
 http://www.instructables.com/id/Make-a-VU-LED-Oven-for-curing-DLP-Resin-3D-prints/


----------



## Bribo

Awesome, I just finished mine on the weekend and was actually looking for an old paint can but had too settle for foil coating a piece of PVC pipe.  I added a little solar powered turntable as well.


----------



## shdh

mogol said:


> Personal laboratory of Jerry for scientific research? =)
> Can anyone identify the device to the right of the monitor? I think it is a crossover (black) and three headphone amplifier for 2-3-way IEM.
> I guess it's a good idea to turn the knobs, try different crossover frequencies, balance levels, phase etc.  And only then implement it at a physical resistors and capacitors.
> Or is it just my imagination...


 
 Thanks for sharing. Makes sense to use dynamics as mid range. Interesting that he matched the phase plot and used a high pass filter on the mid.


----------



## bartzky

muzo2 said:


> Nice diy UV curing station
> http://www.instructables.com/id/Make-a-VU-LED-Oven-for-curing-DLP-Resin-3D-prints/







bribo said:


> Awesome, I just finished mine on the weekend and was actually looking for an old paint can but had too settle for foil coating a piece of PVC pipe.  I added a little solar powered turntable as well.



They both look great! I'm planning something similar and already bought a LED lights. Unfortunately they don't cure the Mcear resin at all. My girlfriend's nail lamp cures the material in less than 30sec.
It is a 1m 5050 LED strip from eBay. The seller claimed the lights had a wavelength of 395-405nm...


----------



## MuZo2

bartzky said:


> They both look great! I'm planning something similar and already bought a LED lights. Unfortunately they don't cure the Mcear resin at all. My girlfriend's nail lamp cures the material in less than 30sec.
> It is a 1m 5050 LED strip from eBay. The seller claimed the lights had a wavelength of 395-405nm...



May be seller sent you non UV LEDs.


----------



## bartzky

muzo2 said:


> May be seller sent you non UV LEDs.



Is there such a thing like "purple or blue light that's not uv light"? I always thought that wavelength and color determine each other.
What I noticed: The nail lamp has a much bluer light while the LED strip is more purple.


----------



## MuZo2

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Deko-Light-Flexibler-LED-Stripe-5050-SMD-Violett-12V-DC-Kette-Kupfer-violett-/262933549247?hash=item3d380f90bf:g:k5UAAOSwpP9Y7bVS
  
 Thats not UV for example.


----------



## Dellwolf

bartzky said:


> Is there such a thing like "purple or blue light that's not uv light"? I always thought that wavelength and color determine each other.
> What I noticed: The nail lamp has a much bluer light while the LED strip is more purple.


Well, humans can't actually see ultraviolet light, it just happens that uv lights also output some visible purple/blue light from them. So if you have a bulb that is made to output purple or violet light it will look basically the same as a uv light.


----------



## bartzky

Thanks guys.
 So I apparently bought something that acts to be uv light by emitting only the parts of uv light that usually can be seen by eye - great 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 I just checked with a banknote: the nail lamp makes the uv activated fibres glow while the ebay LEDs do nothing..
  
 Any recommendations for real uv LED strips?


----------



## piotrus-g

bartzky said:


> Thanks guys.
> So I apparently bought something that acts to be uv light by emitting only the parts of uv light that usually can be seen by eye - great
> 
> I just checked with a banknote: the nail lamp makes the uv activated fibres glow while the ebay LEDs do nothing..
> ...


 buy from trusted source, mouser would be my first choice. Maybe it will be a bit more expensive but you fully know what you're buying


----------



## Einencool

Hi,
I'm Chris, from Germany, but my english is not so good... :rolleyes:



bartzky said:


> Thanks guys.
> So I apparently bought something that acts to be uv light by emitting only the parts of uv light that usually can be seen by eye - great
> 
> I just checked with a banknote: the nail lamp makes the uv activated fibres glow while the ebay LEDs do nothing..
> ...




Your Problem is, that the UV-gel is for 365nm an not for the "cheaper" 395nm light range.
I have made it with a little "Turn-table" and one single 3w LED with 365nm. It works really good, but I'm at the beginning of the process ...

And there is a little Question. My Ear-canals are very small. I will make a CIEM with the GK-drivers. And eventually I get the new GV-drivers in the next days. Can I get a good Sound Quality out of the CIEM if I only take one 2mm tube at the Output port? I think I could get it done with a 3mm tube, when I press the Tube to 2x4mm 

I was told, that the Sound quality from the driver is good enough, so that it is not really neccesary to build it with dampers. Eventually with a 1000 Ohm Damper for the highs.

How many Shells can you make of one "Agar-Agar" form, before re-melting it?:rolleyes:

Sorry for the stupid questions, maybe, I've read about the things, but didn't understand it :rolleyes:
Have a nice weekend.
Greets
Chris


----------



## drumkendrum

Hey guys , I'm trying to figure out the best buffing compound to polish IEMs with. In your opinion what is great ?


----------



## bartzky

piotrus-g said:


> buy from trusted source, mouser would be my first choice. Maybe it will be a bit more expensive but you fully know what you're buying



Mouser would be great, but I just can't find UV LED strips in their assortment.




einencool said:


> Your Problem is, that the UV-gel is for 365nm an not for the "cheaper" 395nm light range.
> I have made it with a little "Turn-table" and one single 3w LED with 365nm. It works really good, but I'm at the beginning of the process ..



Hi Chris, many German DIEMers these days 
How do you know the resin needs 365nm light for curing? Mcear sadly doesn't specify which manufacturer's resin they sell or which wavelength it needs to cure.


----------



## Einencool

Well, I would say its my try & error Method *g*

With a normal 395nm LED I wasn't very happy, because I tried for many Minutes, but it wasn't very good, then I tried the 365nm LED, checked after 1 minute and it was completly done, also the inner part of the shell. Since then I only work with around 0,175A at the LED and it worked fine for me.

But I also have the problems with curing the inner part without curing the whole shell...:rolleyes:


----------



## Shilohsjustice

drumkendrum said:


> Hey guys , I'm trying to figure out the best buffing compound to polish IEMs with. In your opinion what is great ?




I use Enkay compound and love it!!! This is what I use.


----------



## bartzky

Thanks Einencool!



shilohsjustice said:


> I use Enkay compound and love it!!! This is what I use.






Wow it's like six times less expensive as where I live!


----------



## Sinzo

I emailed the guy running McEar, and he sent me this:
  
 https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-y9m_RlOls-d254VC1ZeV8zV3lubktwWFVIUjhLV0RfMFpR
  
 Apparently it's fotoplast? I've had trouble curing the resin from McEar too, albeit that may be due to a bad uv light.


----------



## bartzky

Sinzo Great, thanks for sharing!


----------



## ForceMajeure

The best low cost and proven way to cure is using the CCFL UV nail lamp.
 It works like a charm. It has the correct wave length. 
  
 As long as you use it the right way you will have great results. No need to rotate the investment when curing, just place it in the tray and cover the opening with tin foil. Make sure to remove the transparent blue color sticker on the tray it comes with usually (it's silver shiny under that).
  
 1:20-1:30min is the time it takes to cure the shells with Egger resin ( transparent, 1:45-2min depending on other colors).
  
 Remove the excess resin and without removing the shells from the investments cure again with glycerin inside for 8-9min. Be careful when pouring the glycerin as it can create small bubbles that will stick to the inner wall and will cure. So pour slowly and even give a few knocks with your fingers on the investments so the bubbles rise to the surface or heat it slightly with a heat gun.
  
 The best would be to make a small vacuum/pressure chamber and put the investments with the glycerin inside before the second cure so it eliminates all chances of having bubbles. then you could take them out and place them inside the UV lamp for the second cure.
  
 Pouring the glycerin in the shell without removing them makes it easier and you have less chance of having small bubbles of air sticking both inside and outside 
  
 Rinse in alcohol after that and you are done.
  
 They come out crystal clear and shiny. Don't even need to lacquer or buff them. They actually are shinier than if they go through buffing. 
  
 I haven't found a buffing compound I am happy with so far. I tried the blue color buffing stick with a dremel and buffing cotton wheel at high speed. It get's them shiny but not as shiny as when they come out of the cure or go through lacquering.


----------



## ForceMajeure

shilohsjustice said:


> I use Enkay compound and love it!!! This is what I use.


 
 You buy this one? The green one?
 It says it is for Stainless Steel


----------



## Shilohsjustice

forcemajeure said:


> You buy this one? The green one?
> It says it is for [COLOR=111111]Stainless Steel[/COLOR]




That's the one I use. I've tried around 6 or 7 different ones, green Enkay gives me the best results.


----------



## ForceMajeure

Also I got another question,
 I have syringes and dispensing blunt needles 18 gauge (green color)
 How do you fill them with the resin? I tried "sucking" it directly from the needle but the viscosity of the resin makes it very difficult to fill the syringe any tips?


----------



## Dellwolf

forcemajeure said:


> Also I got another question,
> I have syringes and dispensing blunt needles 18 gauge (green color)
> How do you fill them with the resin? I tried "sucking" it directly from the needle but the viscosity of the resin makes it very difficult to fill the syringe any tips?


Pull the plunger thing out of the syringe, then fill it.


----------



## MuZo2

shilohsjustice said:


> That's the one I use. I've tried around 6 or 7 different ones, green Enkay gives me the best results.


 

 But that stuff will stay on the shell right? if you are using medical grade UV like egger or dreve and buff with that material isnt it dangerous for skin?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

muzo2 said:


> But that stuff will stay on the shell right? if you are using medical grade UV like egger or dreve and buff with that material isnt it dangerous for skin?




It comes completely off when buffing. My arbor is setup with left side with a wheel that I use the wax with, and the right side no was for cleaning/final polish. 

I do my buffing and before I do final polish on the right arbor I clean the IEM with alcohol.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

forcemajeure said:


> Also I got another question,
> I have syringes and dispensing blunt needles 18 gauge (green color)
> How do you fill them with the resin? I tried "sucking" it directly from the needle but the viscosity of the resin makes it very difficult to fill the syringe any tips?




It doesn't suck through the tips, I pull the plunger out, fill with the amount I want, put the tip of the plunger back in just enough so Fotoplast won't seep out, hold it tip up with a paper towel covering the tip and squeeze all the air out.


----------



## ForceMajeure

Thanks for the tip 
  
 I thought of buying diamond grit lapping paste (that comes in syringes). Maybe it works for buffing also?
 like this thing https://www.amazon.com/Diamond-Lapping-Polishing-Compound-microns/dp/B00MALWGBI/ref=sr_1_2?s=arts-crafts&ie=UTF8&qid=1492449039&sr=1-2&keywords=Diamond+Lapping+Paste+Polishing+Compound


----------



## aratj

wtha a good choise for single ba driver iem ?


----------



## Elnurjin

Hello friends. Help me please. I have drivers GK-31732 and TWFK 30017.
Is there a good connection scheme? I want to make 5 drivers in my ear.


----------



## Dellwolf

forcemajeure said:


> Thanks for the tip
> 
> I thought of buying diamond grit lapping paste (that comes in syringes). Maybe it works for buffing also?
> like this thing https://www.amazon.com/Diamond-Lapping-Polishing-Compound-microns/dp/B00MALWGBI/ref=sr_1_2?s=arts-crafts&ie=UTF8&qid=1492449039&sr=1-2&keywords=Diamond+Lapping+Paste+Polishing+Compound


Um, it should still work, I use it on leather for my knives.


----------



## expontherise

I had received some knock-off Shure SE215's a while back (full reimbursement and got to keep the item, thanks amazon lol). I am sorry this is a long post, I have set a goal to get this done and am now intent on getting a move on doing this! 
  
 Anyhow, I am looking to use the shell and make a whole new IEM. I know what I am doing with electronics, soldering and all that, but I have 0 experience with this.
  
 So all I have right now is the shell (which is the translucent blue version is anyone was wondering). The MMCX cable even died very quickly, and then I gutted out the knock-off drives as they were literally... crusty with black ... ill just say dirt to keep it P.G.
  
 Anyhow, I am looking for some guidance to get my project started:
  
*Tools*: anything out of the norm a techie wouldn't already have (I build / fix PC's..)?
*Parts*: I found places like Mouser for parts, specifically a many of different drivers available (is there better places?), but aside from drivers I am lost here as to what all I will need, or more so the specific type of things I will need in each category. I understand what I choose will effect the sound and the sound I am looking for will matter, this I will explain below. Should I even try multiple drivers on a first go?
*Materials: *Any certain solder or wire I should be purchasing? Anything I haven't listed will be needed?
*Placement*: I am sure placing the driver in different locations in the shell will cause a difference in sound, any tips for this?
*Safety*: Any tips to ensure I don't... blow up my ear or something ridiculous I could have avoided? lol
  
 Desired sound: I am really looking to create a smooth sound. I want there to be decent bass (I am a basshead, but am not looking to make a full-on basshead set, I was some resolution and soundstage more, also finding more treble to be just as great the deeper I fall in this audiophile rabbit hole). I mean I feel like this can be achieved later though, once I get a grip here. I just want to succeed in making a working IEM first.
  
 Anyone with any input, even if just covering 1 thing, even if I didn't mention it (as I am sure I'm missing things to ask here), I would GREATLY appreciate it.
  
 Edit: I would like to add, I am looking to go 'lower impedance, easy to drive for this time around. I am thinking I want to go with BA's as well.   Not going CIEM, keeping the natural form-factor.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

FYI...........

Mouser received shipment today of Knowles GV quad drivers for anyone interested in ordering any. They only had 16 available to ship as of tonight.


----------



## Bribo

shilohsjustice said:


> FYI...........
> 
> Mouser received shipment today of Knowles GV quad drivers for anyone interested in ordering any. They only had 16 available to ship as of tonight.


 
 Thanks for the hot tip, I just picked up a pair.  
  
 How did your version 5 crossover work out ?  Do you still prefer it over version 4 ?


----------



## ignotus

expontherise said:


> I had received some knock-off Shure SE215's a while back (full reimbursement and got to keep the item, thanks amazon lol). I am sorry this is a long post, I have set a goal to get this done and am now intent on getting a move on doing this!
> 
> Anyhow, I am looking to use the shell and make a whole new IEM. I know what I am doing with electronics, soldering and all that, but I have 0 experience with this.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi,
  
 I went a similar route myself, I had a pair of Shure 215's that turned out to be knockoffs and decided to make myself a better pair. I also initially considered reusing the shell but unless you go with a single or double driver, I wasn't sure I'd be able to fit the BA in, as the 215's have a little plastic structure inside them that might make it difficult to insert anything that isn't a dynamic driver of the same size. I just decided to buy some replacement shells and went for a triple GK driver - the price difference with a double driver is negligible and once started I thought I might as well do it properly. Also, the shells I bought have a screw so you don't have to glue anything. The fit was very tight but in the end it all turned out great and you get a pair of triple driver IEMs for roughly the same price as the 215s! Check my posting history to find the description of how I did them (it was a while back). Many others have gone a similar route but this thread is so long I wouldn't know where to point you to, so you can just check out my posts to get an idea. If you know how to solder it's a piece of cake - you just need the shells, cables, drivers, a couple of small pieces of EVA or similar, and you can probably scavenge the MMCX connector and wires from your 215s. Oh, and a couple of those colour-coded filters to determine the amount of treble/bass coming out of the spout. I went with green but maybe others can give advice as to what colour might best suit what you're looking for.
  
 Good luck!


----------



## nocchi

I wonder what's the crossover config of andromeda? It seems composed of BK26824, TWFK30017, and HODVTEC31618.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

bribo said:


> Thanks for the hot tip, I just picked up a pair.
> 
> How did your version 5 crossover work out ?  Do you still prefer it over version 4 ?




Version 5 is working out extremely well, I do prefer it over the version 4.


----------



## expontherise

ignotus said:


> Hi,
> 
> I went a similar route myself, I had a pair of Shure 215's that turned out to be knockoffs and decided to make myself a better pair. I also initially considered reusing the shell but unless you go with a single or double driver, I wasn't sure I'd be able to fit the BA in, as the 215's have a little plastic structure inside them that might make it difficult to insert anything that isn't a dynamic driver of the same size. I just decided to buy some replacement shells and went for a triple GK driver - the price difference with a double driver is negligible and once started I thought I might as well do it properly. Also, the shells I bought have a screw so you don't have to glue anything. The fit was very tight but in the end it all turned out great and you get a pair of triple driver IEMs for roughly the same price as the 215s! Check my posting history to find the description of how I did them (it was a while back). Many others have gone a similar route but this thread is so long I wouldn't know where to point you to, so you can just check out my posts to get an idea. If you know how to solder it's a piece of cake - you just need the shells, cables, drivers, a couple of small pieces of EVA or similar, and you can probably scavenge the MMCX connector and wires from your 215s. Oh, and a couple of those colour-coded filters to determine the amount of treble/bass coming out of the spout. I went with green but maybe others can give advice as to what colour might best suit what you're looking for.
> 
> Good luck!




Thanks a lot. Sounds like i was overthinking it some. Thanks. 

I dont know when ill have it done but ill take pics of the process to post up and share the experience!


----------



## Anton Roshchin

Hi!
  
 I want to make DIY ES4-*B* (binaural) in Shure shell.
  
 I have a few questions:
 1) Which drivers should I use?
 2) Which resistors should I use?
 3) Which sound dumpers should I use?
  
 Thanks in advice.


----------



## ForceMajeure

del


----------



## rggz

anton roshchin said:


> Hi!
> 
> I want to make DIY ES4-*B* (binaural) in Shure shell.
> 
> ...


 

 Do you mean ER4-B, right? If yes, there's a good stuff about DIY ER4B in this page on facebook:
  


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



https://www.facebook.com/notes/crc-diy/er4b-%E5%A9%81%E6%B0%8Fed-29689%E5%8B%95%E9%90%B5diy/1188285121203793/
 https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1186450754720563.1073741836.1130459633653009&type=3
 https://www.facebook.com/crcdiy/videos/1192301674135471/


 
 If you have a good soldering skill it'd be easy otherwise it can be very stressful. Usually, the recommendation for damping will be green dampers.

 Although, IMHO I still prefer the treble a bit tamed and bass more present, so I use them with red or orange dampers and it's amazing the final result. It's funny because I see a lot of people EQing Etys and those dampers fix the "lean" signature without a special trick or effort every time you need to change the source.


----------



## Bribo

shilohsjustice said:


> Version 5 is working out extremely well, I do prefer it over the version 4.


 
 Fantastic, My capacitors arrived today from digi key ( I erroneously thought a local shop would have them in stock) so hopefully Ill be in a position to comment by Monday.  Thanks for all your help !


----------



## UNOE

forcemajeure said:


> shilohsjustice said:
> 
> 
> > So I spent the majority of the night working with the HODVTEC and have some results. I tested on my rig but do not have graphs to post as I am tired and have to work in the morning.
> ...


 
 Will tape on add more bass or tape off add more bass?


----------



## MuZo2

sinzo said:


> I emailed the guy running McEar, and he sent me this:
> 
> https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-y9m_RlOls-d254VC1ZeV8zV3lubktwWFVIUjhLV0RfMFpR
> 
> Apparently it's fotoplast? I've had trouble curing the resin from McEar too, albeit that may be due to a bad uv light.


 
 They have added now supplier details and seems its from company called HEBA.
 http://www.mcear.de/WebRoot/Store28/Shops/78599304/58D1/52FF/CF0A/FA3B/08BB/C0A8/2AB8/136F/Heba_LP-H_Lichthaertendes_Acryl.pdf


----------



## ForceMajeure

unoe said:


> Will tape on add more bass or tape off add more bass?


 
  
 Blocking the vents will reduce the overall sound pressure level and reduce the bass 
 Here is a measurement Luke from Vibro-labs made


----------



## UNOE

forcemajeure said:


> unoe said:
> 
> 
> > Will tape on add more bass or tape off add more bass?
> ...




I want as much bass as possible should I open the vented black ports? I think that is what they are right ? The black things under the wire are mess ports on GV ?


----------



## Anton Roshchin

Is there any modern alternative to er4-b with mmcx connector and resistors and caps inside the iems?


----------



## Elnurjin

elnurjin said:


> Hello friends. Help me please. I have drivers GK-31732 and TWFK 30017.
> Is there a good connection scheme? I want to make 5 drivers in my ear.


 
 No one will help? =(
 Guys who knows whether this polymer is suitable for manufacturing?
 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1z0d.6639537.1997196601.369.VayMl5&id=547279488592


----------



## Elnurjin

elnurjin said:


> Hello friends. Help me please. I have drivers GK-31732 and TWFK 30017.
> Is there a good connection scheme? I want to make 5 drivers in my ear.


 
 No one will help? =(


----------



## ziixtreme

elnurjin said:


> No one will help? =(



You gotta try and experiment with each possible way. I recommend 22uF on the low frequency driver and 0.22uF on the wbfk of the 30017. But anyway, don't expect this combination to do wonders.


----------



## ziixtreme

By the way, made this good for bass head iem. It's a 3 drivers 3way crossover. Who can guess what is this? It's gonna be a tough guess to get 100% accurate on my configuration. Hehe


----------



## Elnurjin

ziixtreme said:


> You gotta try and experiment with each possible way. I recommend 22uF on the low frequency driver and 0.22uF on the wbfk of the 30017. But anyway, don't expect this combination to do wonders.



What driver would you advise to add?


----------



## ziixtreme

elnurjin said:


> What driver would you advise to add?



You can try to ditch the GK replace with Sonion 33AJ007i/9 wire it up in series, 10ohm resistance red damper and white damper on the twfk. If you can't get Sonion, replace with Hodvtec same configuration.


----------



## ForceMajeure

unoe said:


> I want as much bass as possible should I open the vented black ports? I think that is what they are right ? The black things under the wire are mess ports on GV ?


 
  
 Yes, the black thing is the mesh Knowles used on the Hodvtec driver for the GV. I recommend trying hearing it first without removing them and see if you like the sound before messing with it. 
 There is a fine balance already established with it's combination with the twfk. Removing it will add bass but might mess with lower mids also. I guess you will have to play with it.
 If you remove the mesh do it carefully so you can apply them back if you don't like the outcome.
  


elnurjin said:


> No one will help? =(
> Guys who knows whether this polymer is suitable for manufacturing?
> https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1z0d.6639537.1997196601.369.VayMl5&id=547279488592


 
  
 You could try to wire it first in parallel to the GK and see how it sound. From there maybe control it with a resistor only, or do a high pass filter doing so might result in dips in the response because of phase...you will have to experiment.
  
 That polymer is for SLA 3d printing, don't think it's safe to put in the ears, also how will it react to your DIY UV curing...
  


ziixtreme said:


> By the way, made this good for bass head iem. It's a 3 drivers 3way crossover. Who can guess what is this? It's gonna be a tough guess to get 100% accurate on my configuration. Hehe


 
  
 Low passed X2 CI with an high passed 2389/ED?


----------



## ziixtreme

forcemajeure said:


> Yes, the black thing is the mesh Knowles used on the Hodvtec driver for the GV. I recommend trying hearing it first without removing them and see if you like the sound before messing with it.
> There is a fine balance already established with it's combination with the twfk. Removing it will add bass but might mess with lower mids also. I guess you will have to play with it.
> If you remove the mesh do it carefully so you can apply them back if you don't like the outcome.
> 
> ...




Wrong. 2389 or ED would not give anything at all over 20k, this is over 20k. Plus, I am not a fan of ED. This is also not 2389. You do not need 2 CI for bass like this.


----------



## Anton Roshchin

Hi!
 I want to make DIY Etymotic ER4-B. But didn't find what's inside the barell on cable exactly.
  
 Variants:
 1) 100 Ohm resistor & 220 nF capacitor in parallel. https://rinchoi.blogspot.ru/2012/08/p2b-adapter-for-etymotic-research-er-4p.html
 2) https://d1jesv1uvhg9i4.cloudfront.net/9/93/93e9808d_post-2-1052299023.gif
 3) https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13718717_1188285747870397_5222870271467699675_n.jpg?oh=06fce40b4eca4dbf1c623fa506bbccca&oe=597D2D8B
 4) https://d1jesv1uvhg9i4.cloudfront.net/a/ad/ad68ca8c_cdpkorea-1327211441-1.png and https://static.flickr.com/72/215475607_a55e413f07_b.jpg are the same
  
 Which one is right?


----------



## ForceMajeure

ziixtreme said:


> Wrong. 2389 or ED would not give anything at all over 20k, this is over 20k. Plus, I am not a fan of ED. This is also not 2389. You do not need 2 CI for bass like this.


 
 So what is it then?
 33AJ007i/9 and wbfk?


----------



## J-breezy

I know this off the current topic but wondering what you guys prefer to use between mmcx and 2-pin. I wish I could find a place to get 4 pin connectors like JH  But I've made iems with both 2-pin and mmcx. On one pair my pins got bent but I still made them work with no sound issues. Had one mmcx cable that didn't connect great and made sound intermittent. But I replaced the cable and the issue was fixed. So just wondering if you guys prefer one over the other for any certain reasons. 
Thanks!


----------



## ziixtreme

forcemajeure said:


> So what is it then?
> 33AJ007i/9 and wbfk?



WBFK yes. Not sonion this time. It's a single 22955 + 26805 + wbfk a little bit of tweaking it will sound like UERR with a little bit more bass texture due to modified 22956 hehehehe


----------



## ziixtreme (May 17, 2017)

MH334 here you go


----------



## drumkendrum

Hey guys! Was wondering if you have any tips for me, I'm using the Klarsil H for the impression casting and there's always a ton of small bubbles in it, I've tried poring it slowly but still has quite a bit of bubbles in it. Would love any info !


----------



## Bribo

You need to degas your casting compound before you pour it.  I mix the silicone then use a break bleeder kit to create a vacuum and pop all the bubbles, then the casting material is nice and clear.


----------



## Squirg

LOVING THE NEW SITE!!!  Nice work HF!  

Hey, gave this stuff a shot over the weekend and it is, by far, the best polishing compound I have tried yet.  

https://www.oaktreeproducts.com/buffing/cres-shine-earmold-polish-1-3-lb-bar-127a

Give it a try!


----------



## Shilohsjustice

I ordered some today, can you post some pics of yours results?


----------



## ForceMajeure

Squirg said:


> LOVING THE NEW SITE!!!  Nice work HF!
> 
> Hey, gave this stuff a shot over the weekend and it is, by far, the best polishing compound I have tried yet.
> 
> ...



Too bad there is no more picture gallery on the side. This was a great tool to look for things on a thread.

Regarding the buffing compound, do you use a bench or a DREMEL? Also it could be very nice to see your results


----------



## Bribo

I am having a strange issue with my Fotoplast.  When i cast shells it works great, but when I add it to the shells later as a thin layer to add body or clear up some scratches it never seems to cure hard and stays a bit tacky.  Anyone know what I am doing wrong ?


----------



## ForceMajeure

Bribo said:


> I am having a strange issue with my Fotoplast.  When i cast shells it works great, but when I add it to the shells later as a thin layer to add body or clear up some scratches it never seems to cure hard and stays a bit tacky.  Anyone know what I am doing wrong ?



When casting a shell, at one stage you add the glycerin so the fotoplast can cure avoiding free air to get in contact with it. this allows curing without the tackiness..when you do retouch you need to allow slightly longer curing time to make sure it gets hard. You'll have a slightly tacky layer in the end. To remove it wipe it with alcohol.


----------



## Bribo

Ahhhh thanks, i didn't realize the glycerin was to prevent air contact, i figured it was to prevent slumping of the uncured product.


----------



## Spinnerauto

Hey guys, I am going  to make solid color of shell,So i don't know how to make it.because the uv light can't go inside as transparent color right? Could anyone tell me about how to make it step by step.Thank you
Sorry for my eng skill.I from asian.


----------



## UNOE

Listening to GV-32830 with 3 vents removed.  Sounds great.


----------



## napka

J-breezy said:


> I wish I could find a place to get 4 pin connectors like JH



You're welcome: sockets, plugs, resistor blocks.


----------



## drumkendrum

Bribo said:


> You need to degas your casting compound before you pour it.  I mix the silicone then use a break bleeder kit to create a vacuum and pop all the bubbles, then the casting material is nice and clear.



What brand is the break bleeder kit, and how do you go about doing it? Im trying to find info on it.


----------



## drumkendrum

ziixtreme said:


> By the way, made this good for bass head iem. It's a 3 drivers 3way crossover. Who can guess what is this? It's gonna be a tough guess to get 100% accurate on my configuration. Hehe



what program are you using if you don't mind me asking?


----------



## drumkendrum

sanekn said:


> Hello, I personnally buy everything iem related (except fotoplast and glysol) on aliexpress, Soundlink. Those guys are golden, standard shipping is slow tho.
> 
> And thank you very much Shilohsjustice for your job and efforts to give us this very useful awesome information. Really appreciate this. Youre like a Jesus of iems here to gide us haha



Do you usually buy your drivers from them too?


----------



## MuZo2

drumkendrum said:


> what program are you using if you don't mind me asking?


You can use ARTA


----------



## Bribo

drumkendrum said:


> What brand is the break bleeder kit, and how do you go about doing it? Im trying to find info on it.



Its a mityvac.  I just plugged the tube and used the little container it came with to mix my impression material.  You need to leave about 2/3 of the container free because it froths up when you create the vacuum.  Or if you want a bigger container just drill a hole in any rigid container (clear nalgene or mason jar) and use the pump to create a vacuum.


https://www.amazon.com/Mityvac-MV8030-Selectline-Vacuum-Pressure/dp/B002Z34U10


----------



## drumkendrum

Bribo said:


> Its a mityvac.  I just plugged the tube and used the little container it came with to mix my impression material.  You need to leave about 2/3 of the container free because it froths up when you create the vacuum.  Or if you want a bigger container just drill a hole in any rigid container (clear nalgene or mason jar) and use the pump to create a vacuum.
> 
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Mityvac-MV8030-Selectline-Vacuum-Pressure/dp/B002Z34U10



I bought one from harbor freight today, not a Mityvac brand however. I mixed the material in the cylinder and it frothed like you said but the froth wouldn't go away still had bubbles . What kinda pressure do you pump it to ? Am I doing something wrong? Do i need to keep pumping it? Maybe its just a cheap pump  Thanks for all the info BTW.


----------



## Bribo

drumkendrum said:


> I bought one from harbor freight today, not a Mityvac brand however. I mixed the material in the cylinder and it frothed like you said but the froth wouldn't go away still had bubbles . What kinda pressure do you pump it to ? Am I doing something wrong? Do i need to keep pumping it? Maybe its just a cheap pump  Thanks for all the info BTW.



I just pump until its all frothed up and then leave it for a few minutes rolling it around for a bit, then release the pressure and do that again a couple of times.  There will still be a few smaller bubbles but once it cures they seem to disappear.  I found that mixing smaller batches worked a lot better as well.


----------



## J-breezy

Hey guys, have any of you ever experimented with high gloss liquid acrylic for a final coat of shine instead of using a uv lacquer? I always seem to have issues with uv curing lacquers. So I tried some acrylic spray from a spray can on a pair of iems that I don't really care for and it worked great. If I was going to spray anything I would rather use a 2 part epoxy spray so it will actually be hard and less likely to come off after lots of use in the ears. 

Also, I realize it's probably not "safe" for the ears to do this. I was just tired of using lack3 and it messing up on me all the time.


----------



## MuZo2

J-breezy said:


> Also, I realize it's probably not "safe" for the ears to do this. I was just tired of using lack3 and it messing up on me all the time.


I think everyone on this thread had to take responsibility of safety not only of themself but of all readers. If you are posting recommendations or questions please understand that it can be risk for others too.
I recommend only using bio-compatible material which are certified to be in contact with ears.


----------



## RayNg (May 4, 2017)

Spinnerauto said:


> Hey guys, I am going  to make solid color of shell,So i don't know how to make it.because the uv light can't go inside as transparent color right? Could anyone tell me about how to make it step by step.Thank you
> Sorry for my eng skill.I from asian.



I would like to know what material to use for non-transparent shell as well. If anyone could give me the aliexpress link, it would be appreciated.


----------



## Xymordos

Hey guys, I have currently two sets of IEC711, and I have used it to measure my UERM left ear piece, results below:

Is anyone able to measure theirs and tell me which one is more accurate? Thanks!


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Hello all, been to long since I posted something!!! I finished up a custom pair last weekend and wanted to share the results!!

I'm hoping to post the tutorial for the Lak3 rotator within the next week!!


----------



## ForceMajeure

RayNg said:


> I would like to know what material to use for non-transparent shell as well. If anyone could give me the aliexpress link, it would be appreciated.



To make plain colored shells you need white acrylic dye (looks more like acrylic paint though) and add any other color dye and mix it. Unless you want plain black. to make it plain black you could use black dye (enough of it) or use black acrylic paint. Of course curing time will be longer for plain colored.



Xymordos said:


> Hey guys, I have currently two sets of IEC711, and I have used it to measure my UERM left ear piece, results below:
> 
> Is anyone able to measure theirs and tell me which one is more accurate? Thanks!


The red one looks more like it although it should have the slight dip you have in the blue graph around 7.5khz. 
Can you please post links where you got from your iec clones telling which one is the red and which one is the blue?



Shilohsjustice said:


> Hello all, been to long since I posted something!!! I finished up a custom pair last weekend and wanted to share the results!!
> 
> I'm hoping to post the tutorial for the Lak3 rotator within the next week!!



Did you buff those after applying lacquer? If so what buffing compound did you use?
Also you add the chance to try Egger LP and Dreve Fotoplast S/IO. Do you see any differences between them regarding curing times and clarity in the end, especially interested in the clear transparent differences?


----------



## Xymordos

The Red one is: https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.14.145.TCV8ZI&id=14787698524&ns=1&abbucket=6#detail

produced by AIWA in China. They claim they are a professional firm (with proper websites and certifications). I use with with a random sound card though - ESI U22XT

The Blue one is: https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1z09.2.0.0.cy3zIK&id=37135316408&_u=6kqv5elff87
Which is a copy of IEC711 measurement device made by a random individual online. I have his very first version which is aluminium while his current designs are stainless steel.


----------



## Slater

Would this work?

https://world.taobao.com/item/543766653085.htm


----------



## ForceMajeure

Xymordos said:


> The Red one is: https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.14.145.TCV8ZI&id=14787698524&ns=1&abbucket=6#detail
> 
> produced by AIWA in China. They claim they are a professional firm (with proper websites and certifications). I use with with a random sound card though - ESI U22XT
> 
> ...



Does the blue one have a microphone? Have you tried using it with the mic in the red one to see if the mic is making the difference?


----------



## Xymordos

ForceMajeure said:


> Does the blue one have a microphone? Have you tried using it with the mic in the red one to see if the mic is making the difference?



I tried, but unfortunately their sound cards aren't compatible with each other. If I swap them around they won't detect properly.


----------



## ForceMajeure

Xymordos said:


> I tried, but unfortunately their sound cards aren't compatible with each other. If I swap them around they won't detect properly.


What kind of microphone does the blue come with? USB? regular 3.5mm mic input?


----------



## Xymordos

Blue comes with 3.5mm into a USB sound card. Red comes with a 3pin (iirc) XLR into another USB sound card.


----------



## bartzky

@Xymordos: Do you have some more IEMs you could measure on both for comparison?


----------



## Xymordos

bartzky said:


> @Xymordos: Do you have some more IEMs you could measure on both for comparison?


Unfortunately none of my friends or I have any proper IEMs to measure


----------



## ForceMajeure

Both measurements you posted are very good though. Really representative of the UERM. the blue one having a tiny bit more bass, sub bass and mid bass and that dip (that should be there btw but maybe not as much...I am not so sure).

Maybe the Output impedance being not <1 ohm could also affect the behavior overall. If I am not mistaken the impedance curve of the UERM have a bump around 500-700hz. it might explain slight difference in bass and transition to the mids.


----------



## bartzky

Xymordos said:


> Unfortunately none of my friends or I have any proper IEMs to measure


Thanks anyway. Are you willing to share the .frd of your measurements?



ForceMajeure said:


> Both measurements you posted are very good though. Really representative of the UERM.


They really are. The blue one is like 75$?! Impressive.


----------



## Xymordos

Haha, the difference results in quite big differences in sound. But without a reference point I don't know which one is more accurate.

And yup, the seller made a range of IEC711 devices ranging from ~$50 to ~300 I think. Mine was one of the first versions he made which I believe is less accurate.

The blue one actually has the sound card tailor-made for the device. For the red one I just bought a random sound card that looked reliable.


----------



## bartzky

Well, these cheap IECs really caught my interest..

So I digitalized some plots:



 
Red and blue as from @Xymordos and yellow from Rin Choi (link). So the blue one seems to be more accurate in treble while the red one is more accurate in the lower frequencies.

As @ForceMajeure already stated there might be some output impedance issues. Rin Choi was kind enough to provide an impedance plot of the UERM that I digitalized as well. Some number crunching and this is what Rin Choi's FR measurement would look like taken with a 10 ohm source vs the original blue:


 
So my guess is the output impedance of your soundcard is about 10ohm while the blue IEC seems to be pretty accurate.


----------



## Xymordos (May 8, 2017)

bartzky said:


> Well, these cheap IECs really caught my interest..
> 
> So I digitalized some plots:
> 
> ...



Holy crap, that's amazing o.o

The cheap ones came with a sound card that has a lot of noise (when I tried to listen to it with some music). However, the seller said the sound card was designed by him with his IEC711 in mind.

The red ones, I can still play with the sound card. There are a lot of options on the sound card, and maybe using the max gain may not be the best option.

Edit: I remember Piotrus measured his UERM somewhere in this thread and it doesn't have the huge 7kHz dip.Not sure if my memory serves me correctly here though.


----------



## bartzky

Found @piotrus-g 's measurement and digitalized it as well (green curve):


 
So... Now the red seems to be more accurate in the treble while the blue one is for lower frequencies  Hard to tell if red or blue is better, but at least you're in good company with both rigs. To really tell you will have to measure more IEMs that are covered in reliable databases, preferably universal shells.


----------



## Xymordos

It seems like Rin's and Piotrus' are more similar  

So when I do take measurements, I'll have to keep in mind that the bass part will be between the blue plot and the red plot. LOL


----------



## ForceMajeure

That's very cool work bartz! Thank you.

non related, but I really miss the search feature and the picture gallery for each thread. It made browsing and searching so much more efficient and interesting.


----------



## piotrus-g

Well we both use ISO certified gear and I think differences boil down to 1) relative volume 2) output impedance 3) insertion deep


----------



## bartzky

Xymordos said:


> It seems like Rin's and Piotrus' are more similar
> 
> So when I do take measurements, I'll have to keep in mind that the bass part will be between the blue plot and the red plot. LOL


I wouldn't say Rin's and Piotr's are more similar. Here's Rin (yellow) vs Piotr (green) and your blue vs red in one plot:



 

As Piotr already stated he and Rin use certified gear, so the deviations between those measurements will most likely be caused by other reasons than in your measurements. Since the UERM is custom molded there might be huge differences in shape. Imagine Piotr measured a UERM from a person with big ear canals while Rin measured a small UERM that inserts very different into the coupler.

Do you have an amp with low output impedance you could use with your blue setup to drive the UERM?



ForceMajeure said:


> That's very cool work bartz! Thank you.
> 
> non related, but I really miss the search feature and the picture gallery for each thread. It made browsing and searching so much more efficient and interesting.


You're welcome!
The picture gallery feature was great, I miss that too. Let's hope they'll restore it soon. Have you tried to use the google picture search in the meantime? Like this: Link


----------



## MuZo2

Rin had made his own measurement rig. 
UERM irrespective of size should measure same and that is controlled by QA.


----------



## piotrus-g

MuZo2 said:


> Rin had made his own measurement rig.
> UERM irrespective of size should measure same and that is controlled by QA.


Well sure, but it will still be dependent on insertion depth.


----------



## Fabs

Hello,

I am Fabs from Stuttgart Germany and I am reading a long time here. 
I like  to build stuff by self and that's why I want  to make some ciem`s  

I was in a hearing aid store and make the impressions.
And now i wanna try to 3d scan them and send a friend with an sla printer to print the shells. I hope this will work. 

Does anyone use cerumen filter to protect the iem from earwax?
Or have they some bad influence about the sound quality?


----------



## MuZo2

Welcome, when you print it use only bio-compatible resins. What scanner are you planning to use? After scanning you will need to model them a bit. Cerumen filter I have seen them only on InEar brand. I wont use it for first build as it will be hard to incorporate it in ciem specially if you plan 2-3 driver ciem.


----------



## David Perkins (May 13, 2017)

Thanks for all the great info in this thread. I made my first pair with Dreve fotoplast and UV lacquer. The faceplates are Kirinite. Knowles 3 way.
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s250/Dave763/IMG_3028.jpg


----------



## Mogol (May 14, 2017)

My third pair. GK inside. Red & white dampers.
Sounds strange. Some tracks sound great, others are unclear. Overall impression - too much bass, low-mid.
Pros - good sound insulation. Moving on the subway or bus, I do not hear the ambient noise and can listen to music at a low volume.


----------



## David Perkins

I have tried two different translucent 2 part silicones. Moldstar 20T and Trollfactory TFC Silikon Kautschuk Typ 13.
The TrollFactory is less viscous, and softer when cured. Both have the same pot life, cure times are longer with Trollfactory, 60 minutes vs 30 for the Moldstar.
Does anyone know where I can buy a silicone in the USA that has the same properties as the Trollfactory silicone?


----------



## ForceMajeure

UM making a pair of Maverick 2


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Hello all, I just finished making a new rotator and wanted to share with everyone. Again it is used for laquer coat for even distribution. 

I used a project box and decided to have two motors this time, both with there own on/off switch.


----------



## jbr1971

ForceMajeure said:


> UM making a pair of Maverick 2



Great video find. The way they do some of those steps never would have occurred to me.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

A while ago I said I would put together a tutorial on how I make the rotator I use with my IEM's. 

Well, the time has come............ I am going to show everyone how I made the rotator below. 







 

I made my own sleeve that goes over the tip for an alagotor clip to slide in.


----------



## David Perkins

Shilohsjustice said:


> A while ago I said I would put together a tutorial on how I make the rotator I use with my IEM's.
> 
> Well, the time has come............ I am going to show everyone how I made the rotator below.
> 
> ...


Awesome! I really need this for the UV lacquer...


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Ok, first things first! Materials list;

Synchronous Motor (from Amazon.com)
SPST snap switch
iPhone 4 Box
(2) 8/32 x 1/4 screw
(2) 8/32 nuts 
Old lamp cord
Alagator Clip for the end




 

First I marked the center of the box 1inch down from the top. 



 

I drilled a hole 3/8 inch hole and then using the the motor as a guide I marked where the screws would go, and then drilled the holes for the (2) screws. I used 3/16 drill bit for the left and right screws, then secure the motor in place with the nuts. 



 



 

I dressed up around the motor with a cut piece of vinyl, this is not necessary just for appearance. (You will see in the last photo I decided to change the vinyl to black)



 

Now the motor is in place I marked the side for the switch. Then I used an exacto knife to cut it out. With some fine trimming I pushed the switch into place. 



 



 



 

In order for everything to fit correctly I had to modify the back part of the box. I notched it out so it would clear the switch, I love the iPhone boxes because they are very sturdy. I then used white electrical tape to clean the edges up. 



 



 

From here I put the back piece of the box aside and started wiring the motor to the switch. 



 



 

Now I modified the lamp cable by putting heat shrink on the end. I drilled the hole in the back left corner of the back of the box so the cord was nice and snug pulled through. 



 



 

From here I just finished wiring it up. 



 



 



 

I pushed the back of the box into the front, and while firmly pushing I super glued it together. 

Here is the finished rotator!! All you need to do now is put the alagator clip on the end and your in business. I hope this helps you take you IEM building to the next level!!



 

Again this little tool helped me overcome several finishing issues, I hope it helps you as well!!


----------



## ForceMajeure (May 17, 2017)

Awesome work!

Now I need to buy an Iphone for the box...

Do you cover the all iem with lacquer prior placing it for the cure?
How long do you let it turn under the UV?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

ForceMajeure said:


> Awesome work!
> 
> Now I need to buy an Iphone for the box...
> 
> ...




I don't cover all of them, but when I do I coat the IEM and place under UV for about 1min 20sec, any longer can over cure the Lak and turn it yellow. Lak3 instructions say to expose for 1 min under 365nm.


----------



## Spinnerauto

Shilohsjustice said:


> I don't cover all of them, but when I do I coat the IEM and place under UV for about 1min 20sec, any longer can over cure the Lak and turn it yellow. Lak3 instructions say to expose for 1 min under 365nm.



what is your lacquer that you use for your iem ??


----------



## tomekk

Spinnerauto said:


> what is your lacquer that you use for your iem ??



Shiloh probably uses Fotoplast Laquer 3. Egger offers Lack L.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

tomekk said:


> Shiloh probably uses Fotoplast Laquer 3. Egger offers Lack L.



Yes, I use Dreve Lak 3. I have had such great results with Dreve I have not tried Egger though I am very curious whether it is better or not.


----------



## tomekk (May 18, 2017)

One more info, if anyone will be looking for something about a Fotoplast:

_“ What is the main difference between Fotoplast Hard and Fotoplast S IO?”_

Fotoplast hard can be used for massive earmolds and Fotoplast S IO is for the production of thin-walled shells for ITE-hearing aids. 

It's good to have Dreve close to a home country. 

Edit:



Shilohsjustice said:


> Oh man, I must say I am digging the epoxy resin pigment much much better than the acrylic ink for colored shells!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> Renders perfect transparency, this color is magenta. Below is a test shell with lion art work. Double test, one for the color and the other for the lion.



My experiments with Epoxy resin pigments are not good. A mixture of Fotoplast with dye looks like a mixture of water and oil. Is split. This is a bad dye?

 

My epoxy resin dye:


----------



## Shilohsjustice

tomekk said:


> One more info, if anyone will be looking for something about a Fotoplast:
> 
> _“ What is the main difference between Fotoplast Hard and Fotoplast S IO?”_
> 
> ...




That is pacular, when I mix my epoxy resin it blends very easy. Try mixing the epoxy resin first as my label says if it sit too long the pigment can settle and it will need to be mixed prior to use.


----------



## ForceMajeure (May 18, 2017)

Shilohsjustice said:


> I don't cover all of them, but when I do I coat the IEM and place under UV for about 1min 20sec, any longer can over cure the Lak and turn it yellow. Lak3 instructions say to expose for 1 min under 365nm.



My question was do you coat completely the ciem with lacquer for the cure or do you coat a certain area, cure and coat another one then cure again...etc?

I guess you do the complete coat.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

ForceMajeure said:


> My question was do you coat completely the ciem with lacquer for the cure or do you coat a certain area, cure and coat another one then cure again...etc?
> 
> I guess you do the complete coat.



Coat the entire IEM, if you only do small sections at a time you will continually expose the laquer to UV which would cause yellowing. Coat the entire IEM and do 1 cure, if I need to build up anything I will coat that area only and use a hand held spot cure flashlight so I don't over expose other areas.


----------



## ForceMajeure

Shilohsjustice said:


> Coat the entire IEM, if you only do small sections at a time you will continually expose the laquer to UV which would cause yellowing. Coat the entire IEM and do 1 cure, if I need to build up anything I will coat that area only and use a hand held spot cure flashlight so I don't over expose other areas.



You really turned into a pro


----------



## Xymordos

And also if you coat certain areas first you'll be able to see the overlapping parts


----------



## ziixtreme

ForceMajeure said:


> My question was do you coat completely the ciem with lacquer for the cure or do you coat a certain area, cure and coat another one then cure again...etc?
> 
> I guess you do the complete coat.



Don't be stingy on the laquer. Dip more but don't dip too much because it will have tearing effect. One tip, after the coat put it in place for 5 minutes before the curing to let the laquer even up. And one more, laquer is not the way to go, just my 2 cents.


----------



## Deezel177

Hey guys!

I've been interested in making my own pair of CIEMs lately and I've spent the past few days diving head first into this massive thread, and I'd like to thank each and every one of you for contributing to this compendium of information!

Now, I have a few questions to ask before committing to buying gear and materials. These questions are mainly aimed towards the shell-making process, as I don't even want to think about the electronics until I can get a decent shell process down.

*1) What's currently the go-to material for making investments?* From an availability and ease-of-use perspective, it seems @Shilohsjustice's gelatin + glycerine technique is currently the most optimal. However, are there any other techniques that trade-off the ease-of-use and availability of gelatin for a better result? I've seen hydrocolloid, among other materials, mentioned a few times here and I'd like to know its advantages against gelatin. I'd honestly rather work with gelatin so I won't have to wait for stuff to ship over, but if other materials like hydrocolloid offer significant gains, then I'll be open to options.
*
2) Is there a resource from which I can buy the majority of my gear and materials?* I'd like to keep shipping to a minimum, as I live in Indonesia and it isn't the most resourceful or easy-to-ship-to place. So, are there any one or two sites where I can get enough gear and materials to get started? So far, I've checked out lightningenterprises.com. Please let me know if there are other sites I should visit.

*3) Is there a more common alternative for Dreve Fotoplast S/IO? *This is a question I ask mainly because I want to spend time prototyping, creating solid acrylic copies of my impressions, and getting a feel for things before using Dreve material for actual shells. Can I use something like UV gel for nails as a temporary substitute? I'm aware that Fotoplast will yield different results, but I'd like to make it easier on myself first before I do anything super serious.

Again, incredibly grateful to everyone here for the knowledge you've built up for newbies such as myself to get started, and anyone who'll take the time to answer the myriad of questions I will undoubtedly have in the future. Otherwise, I can't wait to get started and join you guys on this ridiculous hobby we call DIY audio!


----------



## ForceMajeure

Deezel177 said:


> Hey guys!
> 
> I've been interested in making my own pair of CIEMs lately and I've spent the past few days diving head first into this massive thread, and I'd like to thank each and every one of you for contributing to this compendium of information!
> 
> ...



If there is one thing you should get from this major thread is that having the right material will yield the correct results. You will loose less money in the long run. Gaining experience curing non professional material will not give you the experience needed to deal with professional material as they behave differently and will lead to frustration.

The go to material to make investments is the professional colloid and can be reused numerous times, DO NOT heat it in the microwave.
You are lucky cause a year ago there wasn't one place where you could have bought the majority of things needed in one stop. Soundlink store in Aliexpress sells pro gear. You could use taobao to buy stuff also. Shipping things from the states outside the US is complicated. liquids cannot be shipped usually and shipping in itself is expensive, but you could try. 
Soundlink don't have lacquer as far as I know, so you'll have to find a different source for that.

The best resins out there are Dreve fotoplast S/IO and Egger LP/H. you could try the Nice-Fit resin also (cheaper but apparently not the same quality but should be good enough).
Whatever you choose to do buy at least 100gr of resin, so you can master the process (good for around 10-12 pairs).   
Don't think that because this is DIY it's cheaper than getting a ciem cause it's not...material are expensive and costs add up fast.

This is my opinion, may be others have another point of view.


----------



## Deezel177

ForceMajeure said:


> If there is one thing you should get from this major thread is that having the right material will yield the correct results. You will loose less money in the long run. Gaining experience curing non professional material will not give you the experience needed to deal with professional material as they behave differently and will lead to frustration.
> 
> The go to material to make investments is the professional colloid and can be reused numerous times, DO NOT heat it in the microwave.
> You are lucky cause a year ago there wasn't one place where you could have bought the majority of things needed in one stop. Soundlink store in Aliexpress sells pro gear. You could use taobao to buy stuff also. Shipping things from the states outside the US is complicated. liquids cannot be shipped usually and shipping in itself is expensive, but you could try.
> ...



Thank you @ForceMajeure! I will certainly check out Soundlink's page and see what I can grab. I've also found Warner Tech's page in the mean time and they seem to sell literally EVERYTHING. Though, I'll have to wait for my account to be approved to buy anything, and see if they can ship outside of the US. I'm also looking for a source for Dreve Fotoplast S/IO, and the Soundlink page you referred to may be the answer.

I'm FULLY aware of this hobby being more expensive than purchasing a CIEM outright; I'm not going into it to save money, I'm simply an electrical engineering and audio engineering graduate looking for something to do! Though, considering I haven't seen a circuit or a soldering iron in years, I'm pretty stoked to get reacquainted with it doing something I'm genuinely excited about!


----------



## ForceMajeure

Warner Tech is great, they have everything, even buffing compound. Shilo have experience buying from them.
Oaktreeproducts is another option in the US where you can find many things including Dreve and Egger stuff you should check them also.


----------



## tomekk

My universal (and custom fit for my ears of course ) shell for tests of different configs. I plan to stick pvc tubes inside shell and drill small holes in faceplate. Finally, small screws on top and every day I can test different configurations of crossovers and dampers. 

The shells are prepared on the basis of ear impression. Ofc dual bore 2mm ready. 
I was inspired by the Shure 535  housing from Taobao. 

PS: My new fetish is socket cutting


----------



## Makahl

Guys, I was rebuilding my IEM (RAB-32257 + GK) in another shell and accidentally the wire on positive terminal dropped off now I can't solder it, is there a way to make a joint or save the RAB without the terminal? Thank you!


----------



## rellik (May 22, 2017)

Buy some Brokolinni! Bee my gueses or is it guises.


----------



## ziixtreme

Deezel177 said:


> Hey guys!
> 
> I've been interested in making my own pair of CIEMs lately and I've spent the past few days diving head first into this massive thread, and I'd like to thank each and every one of you for contributing to this compendium of information!
> 
> ...



1) There are a lot of material to use for making the shells. I would suggest you to do some research on hearing aid resin. There are some brands available in the market.

2) Taobao/Aliexpress

3) Yes, but Dreve is the best I would say. In term of clearness if you were to make clear shells.


----------



## cjxj

This post is directed mainly toward Shilohsjustice, so perhaps could have only been a pm. However thought there might be others that have input or else would benefit. So... I'm a newbee that has spent quite a bit of time reading the wealth of material here. Noted a post from you (Shilohsjustice) quite a while back that you use in ear monitors through an aviom system while playing live guitar. I do the same (church setting - elect guitar and bass), and was interested to note your comments that implied that in your experience a set of in ears that sound great for general audio listening don't necessarily work the best (at least for you)  in the live setting and I would assume vice-versa?  This really struck a chord with me since that that's the reason I've become so interested in the topic.  Although I can select and adjust what channels I want to hear, I still seem to end up pushing the sound level way too high to get to hear what I think I need to do my best. So, for starters I've ordered a kit from Luke at Diyearphone, but am still pondering how I want to stuff and tune them for use primarily in a live setting. I know my hearing is likely quite different from yours, but was wondering what you ended up deciding worked best for you specifically in that environment.  In my case I've already lost quite a bit of high end due to abuse and advancing age.  Dumb to have waited this long to be concerned about it.  Now trying to conserve what's left of my hearing while still being able to hear what I need in order to do best what I enjoy..... I do realize I'm probably in for a lot of experimentation, but any comments/advice to jump start would be appreciated.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

@cjxj There are some differences between listening to your monitors through your phone or an iPod compared to live situations for sure. I use a flac player to listen to personal music as it allows to control the quality much better. Live audio produces a wider range of frequencies as apposed to a mixed down compressed cd. 

When I'm playing I use a 3 driver setup as it suites me for tonality and clarity. I mix my own monitor feed so it is EQ'd to my particular style and taste. My mix typically includes no background vocals, drums, bass, keys, and rhythm guitar, and light on lead vocals as well as a click track. 

If you are struggling to hear tonality you may need to adjust your monitor mix accordingly. 

The GK three way is a fantastic setup for a three way. I like the CI driver to have a red damper and the TWFK to have a green damper. This is all the tuning you need to have a great 3-way that covers a good frequency response. 

Louder is not better, so pull the volumes down, and spend some time eq'ing your mix. What I did was pull all out Musicians in for a workshop and mixed everyone's eq's to correctly represent the tones wanted to weed out over powering frequencies. 

I'm not sure if this is what you were looking for.


----------



## Deezel177

ziixtreme said:


> 1) There are a lot of material to use for making the shells. I would suggest you to do some research on hearing aid resin. There are some brands available in the market.
> 
> 2) Taobao/Aliexpress
> 
> 3) Yes, but Dreve is the best I would say. In term of clearness if you were to make clear shells.



Thanks @ziixtreme! I've contacted both Warner Tech and Chris from Lightning Enterprises and they've both informed me they can ship their products to Indonesia (apart from UV lacquer, which is flammable). Soundlink's page on Aliexpress (as per @ForceMajeure's suggestion) is also a fantastic source, but they might take about two months to ship things over, so I'll see if Warner or Chris can beat that time.



cjxj said:


> This post is directed mainly toward Shilohsjustice, so perhaps could have only been a pm. However thought there might be others that have input or else would benefit. So... I'm a newbee that has spent quite a bit of time reading the wealth of material here. Noted a post from you (Shilohsjustice) quite a while back that you use in ear monitors through an aviom system while playing live guitar. I do the same (church setting - elect guitar and bass), and was interested to note your comments that implied that in your experience a set of in ears that sound great for general audio listening don't necessarily work the best (at least for you)  in the live setting and I would assume vice-versa?  This really struck a chord with me since that that's the reason I've become so interested in the topic.  Although I can select and adjust what channels I want to hear, I still seem to end up pushing the sound level way too high to get to hear what I think I need to do my best. So, for starters I've ordered a kit from Luke at Diyearphone, but am still pondering how I want to stuff and tune them for use primarily in a live setting. I know my hearing is likely quite different from yours, but was wondering what you ended up deciding worked best for you specifically in that environment.  In my case I've already lost quite a bit of high end due to abuse and advancing age.  Dumb to have waited this long to be concerned about it.  Now trying to conserve what's left of my hearing while still being able to hear what I need in order to do best what I enjoy..... I do realize I'm probably in for a lot of experimentation, but any comments/advice to jump start would be appreciated.



Hi @cjxj! My church uses the exact same system (Aviom -> IEMs). What I've found helps monitoring most is *isolation* and a *boost* in your particular frequency of interest. Isolation is instrumental in making sure you have a blank canvas as far as your personal mix goes, and no outside noise tampers with the mix you've made for yourself. Secondly, if you were to tune your own IEMs or select IEMs of a specific tuning, I'd suggest one that boosts the frequency range that you'd depend on most. This is why I assume @Shilohsjustice mentioned IEMs being great for general audio listening aren't necessarily great for live environments; we generally want a balanced signature for audio playback, while one coloured for your specific purpose(s) is preferred for monitoring. For example, my church's drummer requires a bassier signature as he relies on that particular frequency range to keep tempo, and the choir uses mid-forward IEMs to monitor their singing as well as the pianist/keyboardist's playing, with rolled-off highs so cymbals and hi-hats don't get in the way and get too loud. For example, you as a guitarist and bassist might want to build an IEM with boosted bass and mid frequencies, and make your fit tighter, as well as fill the shell with acrylic/silicone, to further improve isolation. Though, these are just my two cents, hope they help in the end!


----------



## rellik (May 23, 2017)

UV cure silicone is much more friendly than acrylic and doesnt have that nasty aldehyde/ketone smell ultra bitter(?) taste/sickly sweet smell and visa versa from the decomposing alcohols.

It can be purchased in various Shore ratings to get the desires stiffness.

At least its not an acetyl like Delrin...hmm, I personally dont mind Delrin. Reminds me to use the toilet.

Silicones contain borosilicate based siloxanes which tend to trap and redox (boro) reduce/ (siloxane) oxidize and release body odors in a more even manner. Depends on porosity though.

Polycarbonates just like to stay chunky...


----------



## cjxj

Thanks @Shilohsjustice and @Deezel177.  Good info. It's a learning experience for sure.  Although I can mix what channels I hear as well as overall basic treble/bass in my aviom,  I do not believe there are individual monitor feeds that could be EQ'd at the board. Most of the time I feel I'm fighting upper mids too forward in my universals,  but I do know that much of that can be attributed to poor sound isolation and my hearing. I already have a pair of  HE 31751's (which are a combo of one each CI22955 & ED29689 i believe) so I'll start there along with red and green dampers. My thinking is that since I don't hear much above about 11 khz, perhaps I don't need a TWFK?  And.. I now have a variety of BA's and other supplies coming (sometime, I trust) from Taobao and have collected supplies and fotoplast resin to try my hand at shell making. Who knows where this will lead.


----------



## Deezel177

cjxj said:


> Thanks @Shilohsjustice and @Deezel177.  Good info. It's a learning experience for sure.  Although I can mix what channels I hear as well as overall basic treble/bass in my aviom,  I do not believe there are individual monitor feeds that could be EQ'd at the board. Most of the time I feel I'm fighting upper mids too forward in my universals,  but I do know that much of that can be attributed to poor sound isolation and my hearing. I already have a pair of  HE 31751's (which are a combo of one each CI22955 & ED29689 i believe) so I'll start there along with red and green dampers. My thinking is that since I don't hear much above about 11 khz, perhaps I don't need a TWFK?  And.. I now have a variety of BA's and other supplies coming (sometime, I trust) from Taobao and have collected supplies and fotoplast resin to try my hand at shell making. Who knows where this will lead.



Yeah, unfortunately EQing auxes at the board are very much a luxury, but the beauty of home-made IEMs is the ability to tailor its sound, such that the EQ takes place in the IEM. That, or the more complex way would be to feed the headphone out of the Aviom into a parametric EQ and *then* into the IEM. Your comment about the upper mids is also an example of the notion that audiophile IEMs aren't the best monitoring IEMs and vice versa. For example, I love upper mids and I require them for detail and clarity when listening to music, however the band and I (when playing) prefer a more tame, balanced, and warm signature so cymbals and strings aren't intrusive and sharp. Even when I mix, I tend to only use neutral and analytical IEMs/headphones/speaker systems to check for mistakes and adjust imaging, and I use more natural-and-organic-sounding (yet still transparent) ones to finalise tone, EQ, and balance. This is because using the former from the start induces ear fatigue *far* too quickly, and using the latter usually allows the final mix to sound bolder, more emotive, and more fun.


----------



## David Perkins

A few things I figured out...
After the shell is removed from the mold, and submerged in VG I use a piece of clear plastic on the surface of the VG to stop the shell from floating up and exposing it to air. 
Using modeling clay rolled into a spaghetti like strand, then stuck to a mirror to encircle the shell, I was able to make faceplates with same Dreve UV resin as the shells. The side on the mirror is nice and flat for attaching to the shell. I like Solarez hard finish doming resin for the outside of the face plate.


----------



## loganmark

Have the best that you deserve.


----------



## Deezel177

Hey guys,

Just a thought, has anyone tried vinyl-wrapping (like on cars ala Yiannimize) their IEMs and then sealing it with UV lacquer or UV gel to make it skin-safe? Theoretically, one could achieve a full carbon fiber IEM ala JH Audio/Jomo, among other finishes, but I was wondering if anyone here has tried it to test its practicality.

Thanks!


----------



## SVTong

Deezel177 said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> Just a thought, has anyone tried vinyl-wrapping (like on cars ala Yiannimize) their IEMs and then sealing it with UV lacquer or UV gel to make it skin-safe? Theoretically, one could achieve a full carbon fiber IEM ala JH Audio/Jomo, among other finishes, but I was wondering if anyone here has tried it to test its practicality.
> 
> Thanks!



I've done that for faceplates and it's worked fairly well, but I think the shells are too small and too complicated to get a good wrap on them.  Even when heated, vinyl can't stretch to that degree.


----------



## Deezel177

SVTong said:


> I've done that for faceplates and it's worked fairly well, but I think the shells are too small and too complicated to get a good wrap on them.  Even when heated, vinyl can't stretch to that degree.



Ahh alright, thanks for the feedback!


----------



## yomogi

Hello everyone.
I own "*ED29689*" and "*CI22955*".
I would like to copy "*JH Audio JH5 pro*".

Please tell me the capacitor I should use.
Please tell me which half coil or full coil should be connected.

The shell has already been completed.

Postscript
This is my blog.
custom IEM diy mania


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Check out these impressions I'm working on, probably the most unique anatomy I've worked on. They won't be the prettiest outside the ear, but know one would tell with them in!!! Anyone else work on any ears similar to this??


----------



## ForceMajeure

yomogi said:


> Hello everyone.
> I own "*ED29689*" and "*CI22955*".
> I would like to copy "*JH Audio JH5 pro*".
> 
> ...


1.5uf high pass, half coil.


----------



## rellik

Gotta love the effort. Done.


----------



## yomogi

ForceMajeure said:


> 1.5uf high pass, half coil.


Thank you very much!
I will report it when it is completed


----------



## Spinnerauto

ForceMajeure said:


> 1.5uf high pass, half coil.




What is the half coil? Can you explain it.


----------



## ForceMajeure

Spinnerauto said:


> What is the half coil? Can you explain it.


Some drivers have 3 solder pads in the back instead of the regular two, like the sonion 2389 or ED 29689.
Soldering one of the leads using the center tap is often referred as half coiled.
Using it half coiled will result in a higher treble output from that driver.


----------



## yomogi

I bought SR 32453.
It is planned to merge with dynamic driver (purchased with aliexpress).
I think SR 32453 does not require a filter.
Am I wrong?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Finished up the IEM's from the molds I posted on Friday. They came out very pretty. Red Fotoplast with custom logo cut from vinyl using my wife's Silhouette Cameo plotter.


----------



## Shilohsjustice




----------



## discus123

Shilohsjustice said:


>



very pretty,  good job !


----------



## Mogol (May 29, 2017)

Guys, what kind of glue you use to fix the connectors and faceplates. My acrylic is exfoliateson the shell, superglue is fragile and can not withstand loads when connecting/disconnecting the cable. I tried the cheap Chinese glue (Loco 1000), but it must be used in a thin layer, it does not harden completely when I try to attach the connector on the shell. Yomogi, with your permission, steal explaining the picture.
Future projects plan to use epoxy resin. Or try another UV glue. Kafuter K-3022 for example. And what glues you use for different purposes?


----------



## jbr1971

Mogol said:


> Guys, what kind of glue you use to fix the connectors and faceplates. My acrylic is exfoliateson the shell, superglue is fragile and can not withstand loads when connecting/disconnecting the cable. I tried the cheap Chinese glue (Loco 1000), but it must be used in a thin layer, it does not harden completely when I try to attach the connector on the shell. Yomogi, with your permission, steal explaining the picture.
> Future projects plan to use epoxy resin. Or try another UV glue. Kafuter K-3022 for example. And what glues you use for different purposes?



I use Bondic UV glue which cures very well, and seems to have a good load tolerance so far. I have not had any issues with connecting/disconnecting cables. You just have to make sure your shell and/or faceplate is clear so the UV light it comes with can reach the glue.

You can find it on Amazon.


----------



## yomogi

Mogol said:


> Guys, what kind of glue you use to fix the connectors and faceplates. My acrylic is exfoliateson the shell, superglue is fragile and can not withstand loads when connecting/disconnecting the cable. I tried the cheap Chinese glue (Loco 1000), but it must be used in a thin layer, it does not harden completely when I try to attach the connector on the shell. Yomogi, with your permission, steal explaining the picture.
> Future projects plan to use epoxy resin. Or try another UV glue. Kafuter K-3022 for example. And what glues you use for different purposes?



I am using UV resin (cheap goods not medical grade).
Because it has high fluidity, it is necessary to paint in multiple times.


----------



## Spinnerauto

ForceMajeure said:


> Some drivers have 3 solder pads in the back instead of the regular two, like the sonion 2389 or ED 29689.
> Soldering one of the leads using the center tap is often referred as half coiled.
> Using it half coiled will result in a higher treble output from that driver.



So . The center tap is + or - line ?


----------



## yomogi

Spinnerauto said:


> So . The center tap is + or - line ?



+ - is your choice.
If you connect the center tap to +, you have to connect the other to -.
If you connect the center tap to -, you have to connect the other to +.

+ - should be aligned on the left and right.
It is not an anode and a cathode.
Earphone is an alternating current.


----------



## ziixtreme (May 31, 2017)

I had a graph from a friend's iem recently. Have a look and some thoughts


----------



## Shilohsjustice

I finished up a personal set today, right is ice blue with zebra wood faceplate and custom Shiloh artwork. Left is a light grape color with abalone faceplate and custom lion artwork. Simple 3 driver using knowles GK.


----------



## David Perkins (Jun 1, 2017)

Shilohsjustice said:


> I finished up a personal set today, right is ice blue with zebra wood faceplate and custom Shiloh artwork. Left is a light grape color with abalone faceplate and custom lion artwork. Simple 3 driver using knowles GK.


Those look sweet! Can you tell me why are the dampers at different distance from the nozzles? Please where can I find the wire that you attached the MMCX to the drivers. I have some type1 10/44 litz that I was planning on using, but I like the wire you are using, it looks the same as the wire that the drivers come with.
14 insulated .06mm (enameled colors/polyurethane??) strands  around a fiber core I can't seem to locate any.


----------



## discus123

Shilohsjustice said:


> I finished up a personal set today, right is ice blue with zebra wood faceplate and custom Shiloh artwork. Left is a light grape color with abalone faceplate and custom lion artwork. Simple 3 driver using knowles GK.


Wow ... Excellent


----------



## SVTong

For everyone that is running a GK setup, what's the best way to boost the low end for a bass-ier signature?


----------



## Xymordos

That shell is ridiculously clear o.o Wow!


----------



## David Perkins

SVTong said:


> For everyone that is running a GK setup, what's the best way to boost the low end for a bass-ier signature?


Shiloh told me that a red damper on the CI and green on the TWFK will give more bass less treble. I have not listened to them with the dampers yet. Without any damping they sound amazing, but I would like more bass.


----------



## SVTong

That's the setup I'm currently using. The dampers don't boost bass, they just block out certain frequencies.  I'm wondering if I bypass the built in crossover if that would help.


----------



## David Perkins (Jun 1, 2017)

SVTong said:


> That's the setup I'm currently using. The dampers don't boost bass, they just block out certain frequencies.  I'm wondering if I bypass the built in crossover if that would help.


I think the cap acts as a low pass filter. Bypassing may not help. Since the red 2200 damper on the CI lowers the level as well as filtering frequencies, perhaps only using a green 1500 on the TWFK and no filter the CI would be better at letting the lower frequencies come through?
Also tubing diameter and length come into play as well as the distance of the damper from the nozzle.


----------



## SVTong

I'll give that a try - my only other thought right now is to buy a pair of CI's and turn the GK into a quad, but I was hoping for a better solution than that.


----------



## ignotus

Wow, those are simply beautiful Shiloh...

I have a question:

Some time ago I put a GK in a universal Shure replica shell and have been quite happy with it, except that the shells have some rough edges and become uncomfortable over time. Instead of sanding them down I've decided to re-shell the drivers. Sadly I don't have the time, money nor skill to make some CIEMs so I've ordered a pair of cheap IEMs that I plan to gut and replace the internals with the GK. These new shells have a wider spout that can accomodate two tubes. I often see CIEMs where the high frequency drivers are tucked in near the spout and the low frequency ones are further away - so I was thinking about separating the CI from the TWFK and doing just that. My question is: what are the advantages of doing this? Should I bother? I currently have the two driver spouts going into one tube with a green damper and I find the high frequencies to be a bit on the harsh side - and I wouldn't mind getting a little more bass out of them too. I was thinking of now using a red damper for the CI and a green one for the TWFK. Would tucking up the TWFK against the spout make the highs harsher? I suppose the simplest answer is "just try it out", but I would be grateful for any pointers as to what to expect.

Cheers!


----------



## Dellwolf

ignotus said:


> Wow, those are simply beautiful Shiloh...
> 
> I have a question:
> 
> ...


I would think the distance would be to help with phasing.


----------



## rellik (Jun 2, 2017)

Sorry, but the distance is to tune to a different resonant mode. The chamber length and diameter become the dominant resonant frequencies as the driver is stored outside the ear.

Adding a horn or waveguide creates additional oscillation modes which throws off phase often considerably. Changing diameter can help to spread the response range of a driver from its Thiele/Small Fs Free air resonance parameter. This will give the driver a more even amplitude at different freuqencies. Its focal dispersion is also spread, creating a larger sweet spot.

Another benefit to adding a ramped phase is to reduce ringing and amplifier load by playing different notes at different times thus maximizing power output. Ramped phase is quite easy to get accustomed to as it is constant and a simple delay.

OFF Topic: ------

Opamps such as the recently discontinued LM Overture series shift tune to a maximal frequency and delay other frequencies (in a nutshell). The more recent LM chip amps actually will choose "random" dominant frequencies that shift between a bucket of maximal frequencies after a certain time, they will also include delay to support other frequencies. This "random" function is based on power line noise to maximize output power and minimize output noise. Shifting faster allows for the amp to "cool" from the maximal frequency just alittle more. Can be distracting as hell though. Both chips support a set of these concepts, but how many tones and more importantly how quickly is based on their design specs.

The OPA541 tends to just include a basic monotonic wave(s) added to the signal to allow for chip to cool. This is why it can only output 10W vs 35-45W in the same TO-220 power package. The aforementioned LM amps include this as well.

All of these designs are strictly different from the Class D(varying square wave duty cycle based on loading) or Tripath(varying duty cycle pulse(sine,saw,square) generated via simple internal DAC) amps yet include some form of "audible" Duty Cycle to maximize output. Tripath amps and Class D amps can also use a function of the above techniques based on their design.

Basic discrete transistor amplifiers tend to use a duty cycle outside of their "audible" range due to separate component function and significant heat sinking of the output drivers. The larger external traces also act as much better heat sinks than tiny internal lithographed traces.

The tones of certain standard OP Amps can become quite familiar and pleasing thus restricting the use of Discrete Op Amps. Why swap it when its designed for it??? AKA DAC chip output. Pure amps are a different bag o worms.


----------



## briancortez2112 (Jun 4, 2017)

Sorry never posted a while, ive been super busy!
Everyone on here seems to be doing a great job figuring out these things! Thats awesome!
Here are just a few i have recently done, hope it fires up everyone to continue there passion.


----------



## yomogi

SR 32453 (full range) + dynamic driver (woofer).
Face plate is fluorescent color.
The sound quality is very warm.
SR series are low cost and high performance.


----------



## jbr1971

yomogi said:


> SR 32453 (full range) + dynamic driver (woofer).
> Face plate is fluorescent color.
> The sound quality is very warm.
> SR series are low cost and high performance.



Nicely done. What is the purpose of the holes in the faceplates? Bass ports?


----------



## tomekk

Metaphysical question. Why are weekends so short?


----------



## bartzky

Despite the article is written in German this may be interesting for some people: @HuoYuanJia was allowed to document how Vision Ears manufactures their CIEMs and he also was allowed to take photos of their production, what normally is strictly forbidden.

http://headflux.de/so-entsteht-ein-custom-inear-ein-besuch-bei-vision-ears-in-koeln/


----------



## jbr1971

bartzky said:


> Despite the article is written in German this may be interesting for some people: @HuoYuanJia was allowed to document how Vision Ears manufactures their CIEMs and he also was allowed to take photos of their production, what normally is strictly forbidden.
> 
> http://headflux.de/so-entsteht-ein-custom-inear-ein-besuch-bei-vision-ears-in-koeln/



Great article. Google Chrome translated it to english very well.


----------



## yomogi

jbr1971 said:


> Nicely done. What is the purpose of the holes in the faceplates? Bass ports?


It is to prevent the air spring effect of the dynamic driver.


----------



## tomekk

yomogi said:


> It is to prevent the air spring effect of the dynamic driver.



You need some mesh there. Nothing so irritates as stains and dust in shells.

Maybe a small tube and a damper of wool?


----------



## yomogi

tomekk said:


> You need some mesh there. Nothing so irritates as stains and dust in shells.
> 
> Maybe a small tube and a damper of wool?



thank you for the advice.
But I am not worried.
Because other earphones were okay as well.


----------



## Spinnerauto

Shilohsjustice said:


> I finished up a personal set today, right is ice blue with zebra wood faceplate and custom Shiloh artwork. Left is a light grape color with abalone faceplate and custom lion artwork. Simple 3 driver using knowles GK.



How did you put graphic on faceplate? Can you explain?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

There are a couple methods I use based on the graphic and need. The ones pictured I used a cameo vinyl cutter to cut the image into vinyl then applied and used clear Fotoplast over top.


----------



## J-breezy

A friend of mine has a pair of iems from Alclair and his right iem is a bit loose and he is already past the 30 day re-fit time limit. He was wondering if I could add something to it to build it up and I was wondering if you guys would just use something like lack 3 to add some buildup? Also, I'm guessing it's best to just cover the entire iem, instead of just the canal to avoid the difference in layers ones it hardens?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

First and foremost Alclair is a fantastic company with exceptional customer service. My recommendation would be to reach out to them and rule that completely out first. 

Second, I would have them try to be more specific as to where the fit issue is;
Canal
Base Canal
Cymba

Then I would apply a small amount of Lak3 in that area only. You only need to to get to a  point where it completely seals, if you do that you done a good job adjusting fit. 


 

Just my 2 cents...... I wouldn't coat the entire IEM.


----------



## J-breezy

Shilohsjustice said:


> First and foremost Alclair is a fantastic company with exceptional customer service. My recommendation would be to reach out to them and rule that completely out first.
> 
> Second, I would have them try to be more specific as to where the fit issue is;
> Canal
> ...



Awesome! Thanks for the info. I haven't told him whether or not I would even work on them. I wasn't sure if I would even want to. Alclair was just gonna charge him a little bit since he waited past the time limit so he was just looking at options. 
Thanks again for the input!


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Ok so the below was 100% test build, nothing has been finished or buffed. I was inspired by canal works idea of having an external tuning capability with resistors. I wanted to create a base I could try tuning different caps and resistor values with full performance. Below is what came out, ability to switch caps on the TWFK to try different values as well as ability to change resistor values on the HODVTEC. 




 

It's pretty cool and I was able to try a couple configs. Promises to be a cool easy way to switch out configs for different listening applications. I want to hone it to like 3 different plug and play situations. My idea would be to create 3 finished look faceplates that plug into the IEM in which it still looks like a faceplate with the same dimensions as the IEM itself.


----------



## Slater

Shilohsjustice said:


> Ok so the below was 100% test build, nothing has been finished or buffed. I was inspired by canal works idea of having an external tuning capability with resistors. I wanted to create a base I could try tuning different caps and resistor values with full performance. Below is what came out, ability to switch caps on the TWFK to try different values as well as ability to change resistor values on the HODVTEC.
> 
> 
> 
> It's pretty cool and I was able to try a couple configs. Promises to be a cool easy way to switch out configs for different listening applications. I want to hone it to like 3 different plug and play situations. My idea would be to create 3 finished look faceplates that plug into the IEM in which it still looks like a faceplate with the same dimensions as the IEM itself.



Wow, looks great!

How did you determine which value of resistors & caps to try? Is there a calculator table somewhere? That's a carbon resistor, right? Are metal film resistors better for audio, or does it not matter?

Thanks


----------



## ForceMajeure

Awesome work as usual Shilo. 
Also I would like to congratulate everyone in this thread, you guys are doing great work.

Regarding buffing, I thought this was a very informative piece regarding different buffing wheel and what they are good for.
 f.e treated mousline (the yellow wheel) vs regular.
 stitched vs non stitched and so on. 
http://blog.esslinger.com/guide-to-buffing-and-polishing-wheels/


----------



## Shilohsjustice

So............ Been playing around again today with these external resistors. It's a lot of fun, I still am sold on the 68ohm resistor on the HODVTEC!!

I put together a 6 driver setup using a TWFK, SWFK, HODVTEC.


----------



## J-breezy

Shilohsjustice said:


> So............ Been playing around again today with these external resistors. It's a lot of fun, I still am sold on the 68ohm resistor on the HODVTEC!!
> 
> I put together a 6 driver setup using a TWFK, SWFK, HODVTEC.



Jeez, I swear every time you make a new pair it just makes me so jealous of your skill. I'm still just messing around with GK's and GV's. Haven't worked up the courage to try wiring my own design.  

Question off topic (and I apologize if you've cover this in a previous post), how do you make your faceplates? I know there are many different ways to go about making them. Just wondering which technique you prefer to use.


----------



## Shilohsjustice (Jun 8, 2017)

J-breezy said:


> Jeez, I swear every time you make a new pair it just makes me so jealous of your skill. I'm still just messing around with GK's and GV's. Haven't worked up the courage to try wiring my own design.
> 
> Question off topic (and I apologize if you've cover this in a previous post), how do you make your faceplates? I know there are many different ways to go about making them. Just wondering which technique you prefer to use.



I usually use a square of glass from a small picture frame, 3x5. I pour a small amount of Fotoplast onto it and cure. I use a sharp blade to remove it from the glass and attach to the shell using Fotoplast. Wood I use super glue, loctite 495.

I posted a tutorial awhile back, I just don't remember how far back.


----------



## hchanrn (Jun 8, 2017)

knowles gv-32830 quad driver with shure se 535 diy shell, knowles green filter

  


Wasn't sure if I could trust the quality of drivers used with the iems from China on eBay so I decided to see if I could put together my own build with drivers sourced from Mouser.com.  With the Westone star silicone tips they sound pretty good.  Still burning in.  So far sounding brighter and opening up.  The highs sounded really muffled on initial listening session.  I also removed the tape that covers the two vent holes on the drivers.  Low end seems to have good extension but still doesn't have the impact/pressure that dynamic drivers have.  Overall very simple build.  Just wire up everything.  Epoxy driver to the opening inside shell.  Careful not to use too much epoxy.  Excess can get into the driver opening.  Making sure also to get good seal around edges where driver meets with opening to exit nozzle.  Not bad for approx $150 in parts.


----------



## Mogol

Guys, I need advice. 
I would like to build *two* two-way systems. Earlier in this thread, I was advised to combine CI22955 + Sonion 2389. Or CI22955 + ED29689 (a very common setup). I have the opportunity to acquire Sonion drivers, and i want to mix Knowles and Sonion. Which Sonion driver for low frequencies can you recommend in combination with ED? 2015, or 3300, 3800 families, or something else?
Or is it not the best idea to mix Knowles & Sonion? If so, then which combination of S + S do you think sounds good?
As for the sound, I would like to get a balanced sound, without the predominance of low or hi frequencies.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Sorry Mogol, I do not currently have access to Sonion drivers so I can't suggest. 


So all those who are intrigued by the ADEL technology that was used by 64 audio and now exclusive to Empire Ears. They are made by a company called Asius Technologies and can be purchased directly from them. I just ordered a pair for $40 to see what the hype is. I plan on installing them in a pair of custom quad IEM's to see if there is any noticeable difference. I will post pics and give my thoughts once I get and install them. Just thought this would be perfect for us DIY'ers as it is only available to a select small number of IEM's.


----------



## MuZo2

But you will need additional sound tube to ADEL? Also bass quantity might be reduced right? 
Is there a link where you can buy directly?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

MuZo2 said:


> But you will need additional sound tube to ADEL? Also bass quantity might be reduced right?
> Is there a link where you can buy directly?



Yes you would need additional sound tube ran to the module. According to the site and research I have done it should actually enhance bass response. I'll link to the modules I bought, price includes both sides. Shipping was only 2.99!!

https://asiustechnologies.com/collections/all


----------



## Xymordos

Shilohsjustice said:


> Yes you would need additional sound tube ran to the module. According to the site and research I have done it should actually enhance bass response. I'll link to the modules I bought, price includes both sides. Shipping was only 2.99!!
> 
> https://asiustechnologies.com/collections/all



I have a feeling what it does is boost the mid bass and the sub-bass drops off earlier. I've actually never played around with an ADEL module though. Let's see what your tests reveal


----------



## MuZo2

O1 seems to be fully closed unlike B1, S1 or G1


----------



## Shilohsjustice

MuZo2 said:


> O1 seems to be fully closed unlike B1, S1 or G1



I thought the same thing, so wouldn't that represent the most realistic reproduction of the ear drum? Nothing a pin hole couldn't fix, ! I'm excited to play around with them to see if it's something viable for us DIY'ers. I wasn't willing to spend more than that just to try them out, I was apprehensive about spend 40bucks lol.


----------



## bartzky

I'm sure many have already read this great article about Adel: https://cymbacavum.com/2016/08/15/critical-analysis-1964adel-science-or-science-fiction/


----------



## Shilohsjustice

I did read that article, and it was written based on conflicting information that Asius and 64 audio was putting from the initial launch. I don't think Cymbacavum actually got a pair to try which is why it was written from an opionated point of view. I do know that the reviews of them when they were in 64's IEM's are great.


----------



## bartzky (Jun 12, 2017)

That may be - I don't know. But the article does contain some nice technical information. Especially the bespoken Vanderbilt poster was useful.

I can imagine that the modules might have a positive effect. Particularly the percepted soundstage could get better.

I highly doubt though that those modules will reduce the harm caused by high listening levels.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

bartzky said:


> That may be - I don't know. But the article does contain some nice technical information. Especially the bespoken Vanderbilt poster was useful.
> 
> I can imagine that the modules might have a positive effect. Particularly the percepted soundstage could get better.
> 
> I highly doubt though that those modules will reduce the harm caused by high listening levels.



I would agree, I'm curious to see what the effects! The article was extremely informative and has tons of useful info for sure!!!


----------



## Dirtrider

Hi Everybody!  I've been lurking around this forum for a couple years now but thought it was about time I actually register.  This is my first attempt at participating in any forum so please go easy
on me



Shilohsjustice said:


> I thought the same thing, so wouldn't that represent the most realistic reproduction of the ear drum? Nothing a pin hole couldn't fix, ! I'm excited to play around with them to see if it's something viable for us DIY'ers. I wasn't willing to spend more than that just to try them out, I was apprehensive about spend 40bucks lol.



If you ordered the O1, you might be in for a bit of disappointment.  I'm not 100% certain but I do believe it's just a solid plug without any kind of membrane so that you can hear the IEM without ADEL.
If I'm wrong, hopefully someone can correct me.


----------



## Deezel177 (Jun 13, 2017)

To echo @Dirtrider's statement, the O1 is a solid piece of metal that can't be turned into a B1 or a G1, as it doesn't have an actual membrane. A pinhole would theoretically let air travel in-and-out of the IEM, but it won't effectively relieve pneumatic pressure to the absence of a diaphragm (in the case of the B1), or two diaphragms (in the case of the G1). It's not even an ADEL module per se; it's what you buy if you want to turn an ADEL IEM into a non-ADEL IEM.

As someone who has an ADEL-equipped IEM and has compared it with the non-ADEL variant, I can say its health benefits are very tangible. Personally, my left ear gets fatigued quicker than my right, and after an hour or so of listening to a non-ADEL IEM, I get pseudo channel imbalance, but in terms of dynamics and focus rather than volume or SPL. This never occurs with my ADEL IEM. Ear fatigue also sets in much slower with ADEL, maintaining sharp aural focus and consistent perceived listening levels for much longer.

However, I must say that its effects on sound are much more mixed. ADEL technology relies on venting, which means a loss in isolation. This loss in isolation also causes a reduction in mid-bass warmth. Given, this causes the bass to be less congested, and more airy and natural in its presentation, but it may cause lean IEMs to sound anaemic and thin down low, and incoherent. Also, its soundstage expansion is at a cost of imaging accuracy and resolution. Because the details are further away, perceived resolution takes a hit, and imaging becomes smeared as the soundstage is somewhat stretched. If you're someone who values resolution and critical listening a lot, you may find yourself pumping up the volume to counteract the loss in isolation and in an attempt to bring up the details, eventually counteracting the effects of ADEL by exposing yourself to excessive levels of SPL.

ADEL is definitely a give and take. Its health benefits are real, but they come at a cost of an altered sonic presentation, and they can only be taken advantage of in the right circumstances. Here, you can obviously tune your IEMs to work well with the effects of ADEL, but I reckon it'll take a bit more work than simply plugging it in.


----------



## ForceMajeure (Jun 14, 2017)

Deezel177 said:


> To echo @Dirtrider's statement, the O1 is a solid piece of metal that can't be turned into a B1 or a G1, as it doesn't have an actual membrane. A pinhole would theoretically let air travel in-and-out of the IEM, but it won't effectively relieve pneumatic pressure to the absence of a diaphragm (in the case of the B1), or two diaphragms (in the case of the G1). It's not even an ADEL module per se; it's what you buy if you want to turn an ADEL IEM into a non-ADEL IEM.
> 
> As someone who has an ADEL-equipped IEM and has compared it with the non-ADEL variant, I can say its health benefits are very tangible. Personally, my left ear gets fatigued quicker than my right, and after an hour or so of listening to a non-ADEL IEM, I get pseudo channel imbalance, but in terms of dynamics and focus rather than volume or SPL. This never occurs with my ADEL IEM. Ear fatigue also sets in much slower with ADEL, maintaining sharp aural focus and consistent perceived listening levels for much longer.
> 
> ...



Thank you for your interesting input! Nice to hear someone's opinion having dealt with it for a few months.
Regarding the "pumping up the volume to compensate" was an issue I also thought about. It seems like the Adel can be a double edge sword if not used correctly.


----------



## J-breezy (Jun 15, 2017)

I know this is off current topic (sorry). Im currently trying to make a clear shell. When I take the shell out of the investment I put it in glycerin, put it under the uv light, then put it in alcohol. Take it out and do all my sanding, then it goes back in alcohol. Dry the alcohol up with a dryer and wipe the shell out. (These are steps I've gotten from Shiliohsjustice many pages back).
But my question is, does the alcohol make everyone else's shells dull? I'm not worried about the exterior cause I can buff or lacquer it. But just not sure what to do with the interior. I want them to be as clear as possible and I'm afraid they won't be with them being somewhat dull on the inside. Maybe I'm doing something wrong in the steps listed above. 8-/
Thanks!


----------



## briancortez2112

J-breezy said:


> I know this is off current topic (sorry). Im currently trying to make a clear shell. When I take the shell out of the investment I put it in glycerin, put it under the uv light, then put it in alcohol. Take it out and do all my sanding, then it goes back in alcohol. Dry the alcohol up with a dryer and wipe the shell out. (These are steps I've gotten from Shiliohsjustice many pages back).
> But my question is, does the alcohol make everyone else's shells dull? I'm not worried about the exterior cause I can buff or lacquer it. But just not sure what to do with the interior. I want them to be as clear as possible and I'm afraid they won't be with them being somewhat dull on the inside. Maybe I'm doing something wrong in the steps listed above. 8-/
> Thanks!



After the glycerin bath, you should not have to put the shell in alcohol, it should be fully cured and just a rinse of water will rinse the glycerin right off.
When the resin if fully cured, i found the alcohol in no way affects the shell clearness.
Maybe the shell is not fully cured in the glycerin bath....


----------



## cjxj

General tube and damper guidance for novice. I've searched on the subject but ended up a bit confused and  still pretty unclear on preferred or best practice on tube configuration. I do realize that this is all part of the tuning process, but looking for a leg up in guidance on what seems to be preferable from those with experience.   Still pretty new to the discussion. For my questions, I'm assuming that #16 is 1mm/2mm and 13 is 2mm/3mm. 
In my initial 2 driver build I did the following:  BA >> #16 for 5 to 7 cm (tweet/woof)>>  to short piece of #13 to house the damper >> back to #16 to exit ear. It seems to work quite well for my initial use as a stage monitor, but I'm ready to start tinkering with some new builds. So, not even knowing if I'm even asking the right questions, here's a few for starters: 
1: Length and id influences on freq response and volume.
2: Is bigger id better if it will fit to the canal tip?
3: Influences on location of damper in tube relative to BA or exit to ear canal.
4: I'm focused on BA's, but do dynamic drivers respond differently to tube size/length?

Thanks in advance. I'm simply amazed by the creativity and expertise on this forum.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

briancortez2112 said:


> After the glycerin bath, you should not have to put the shell in alcohol, it should be fully cured and just a rinse of water will rinse the glycerin right off.
> When the resin if fully cured, i found the alcohol in no way affects the shell clearness.
> Maybe the shell is not fully cured in the glycerin bath....




Like Brian said, if it's fully cured Alcohol will not affect it. You likely still have an inhibition later. Try curing it longer in the glycerin bath. 

I rinse in alcohol because water can leave water spots, especially if you do not know the quality of water you have, the alcohol does not leave spots and is a controllable variable.


----------



## ignotus

Hi,

I just re-shelled some GK drivers using some cheap IEMs I bought on Aliexpress: https://es.aliexpress.com/item/Bran...-ear-sport-moving-coil-Noise/32577767745.html. I was using a Shure replica but it had some rough edges that made it uncomfortable. These are much more comfy and isolate well, and for the same price you get a cable, mmcx connectors and some dynamic drivers to play with. I also wanted to try out the GK with separate tubes and filters.

Green filter for the TWFK and a red one for the CI. Due to the constrained space, I separated the drivers and tucked the TWFK close to the spout, and the CI ended up with about 5 cm of tubing. Getting everything to fit was a nightmare and required some reworking of the inside of the shell... but in the end it was well worth it. I filled in the spout with hot glue around the silicone tubes before trimming off the excess to seal it and it turned out pretty well - I tried listening before and after and the difference was huge.They now sound outstanding and are nice and comfortable. I also covered the faceplate with some 5D carbon fibre vinyl (pic doesn't do it justice...). Not even near as good looking as the CIEMs on here but still more than happy!


----------



## Dirtrider

cjxj said:


> General tube and damper guidance for novice. I've searched on the subject but ended up a bit confused and  still pretty unclear on preferred or best practice on tube configuration. I do realize that this is all part of the tuning process, but looking for a leg up in guidance on what seems to be preferable from those with experience.   Still pretty new to the discussion. For my questions, I'm assuming that #16 is 1mm/2mm and 13 is 2mm/3mm.
> In my initial 2 driver build I did the following:  BA >> #16 for 5 to 7 cm (tweet/woof)>>  to short piece of #13 to house the damper >> back to #16 to exit ear. It seems to work quite well for my initial use as a stage monitor, but I'm ready to start tinkering with some new builds. So, not even knowing if I'm even asking the right questions, here's a few for starters:
> 1: Length and id influences on freq response and volume.
> 2: Is bigger id better if it will fit to the canal tip?
> ...



If you go to Sonion's website, you will find a lot of helpful PDF's that cover those topics.  Look for one called  "Designing Earphones" .


----------



## J-breezy (Jun 17, 2017)

I had an extra GV and GQ at the house and was thinking about putting them together to see what kind of sound would be produced. I was thinking about doing it in parallel but then I didn't know if that would have an effect on the crossover on each set of speakers. Would wiring them in series be any better?


----------



## tomekk

Milestone weekend.


----------



## ForceMajeure

tomekk said:


> Milestone weekend.


Nice job!
What have you used to color the white faceplate?


----------



## ForceMajeure (Jun 20, 2017)

ziixtreme said:


> I had a graph from a friend's iem recently. Have a look and some thoughts


Looks to me like an hybrid. knowing you have a thing against/with  AAW I'd say they are AAW


----------



## Xymordos

^That actually reminds me of the SE5 graph I saw somewhere


----------



## Shilohsjustice

FYI, I found a fantastic way to make white!! I mean it's perfect white. 

I used white uv marking material I purchased from warner techcare. It mixes perfect and it is uv so it cures well. You do need a higher intensity uv for it to cure. It worked for me as I've done a few white Faceplates. 

I have another insider for colorant. Alclair uses Multisolve IR2 LED UV ink for there shells. If you've ever noticed, a lot of there shells are colored from the inside, clear shells then color on inside. It is because they are using UV LED ink intended for direct UV printers. I actually seen a video where they were using this ink in a syringe and directly spot adding to inside of clear shell.


----------



## ziixtreme

ForceMajeure said:


> Looks to me like an hybrid. knowing you have a thing against/with  AAW I'd say they are AAW


Lol... Not that I had a thing with them... I will pm you my findings


----------



## sanekn

Hello guys, it's been a while, i'm now trying to do 5 sets for my friends in a band weaksaw and I have some trouble, but I will show you when it's finished! My last try failed miserably because of those flimsy chinese MMCX connectors... So I ended by exploding them to save those GK drivers. Same with my pair of Iems, losing connection !

So my question is - if I buy for exemple Amphenol connections on mouser will it be better? Could anyone advice me on this? 

Thank you in advance!


----------



## ziixtreme

sanekn said:


> Hello guys, it's been a while, i'm now trying to do 5 sets for my friends in a band weaksaw and I have some trouble, but I will show you when it's finished! My last try failed miserably because of those flimsy chinese MMCX connectors... So I ended by exploding them to save those GK drivers. Same with my pair of Iems, losing connection !
> 
> So my question is - if I buy for exemple Amphenol connections on mouser will it be better? Could anyone advice me on this?
> 
> Thank you in advance!


The Shure style MMCX works perfectly for me. I have no complaints with it. The only thing is that you need to use better male plugs for mmcx. I would recommend Oyaide if you can source them. It's really an excellent mmcx plug.


----------



## Dirtrider

Have any of you who use IEMs on stage, ever tried or heard of this little device?  

http://rev33.com/

I'm curious what this does.


----------



## Im1fan2nv

Longtime reader, 1st time poster. Thanks to everyone who contributes here. It's been great help and there is a plethora of information, great questions and a great group of people willing to help. Just to confirm, I just wanted to make use of some older dynamic's I had and came across this site. Now, I'm addicted and my wife is tired of hearing about CIEMs. Lol

Correct me if I'm posting this in the wrong area..

My question is, does anyone know why mouser has the GV-32830 listed as "End-of-Life"? My understanding is that it's fairly new and is a great combination. Therefore, I am confused why it's going away.


----------



## Im1fan2nv

UNOE said:


> Listening to GV-32830 with 3 vents removed.  Sounds great.



Am I missing something here. I see the 2 vents at the bottom of the HODVTEC with tape but are the other 2 mesh ones the metal ones on the sides of the TWFK's? If not, Can someone post a pic pointing them out?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Im1fan2nv said:


> Longtime reader, 1st time poster. Thanks to everyone who contributes here. It's been great help and there is a plethora of information, great questions and a great group of people willing to help. Just to confirm, I just wanted to make use of some older dynamic's I had and came across this site. Now, I'm addicted and my wife is tired of hearing about CIEMs. Lol
> 
> Correct me if I'm posting this in the wrong area..
> 
> My question is, does anyone know why mouser has the GV-32830 listed as "End-of-Life"? My understanding is that it's fairly new and is a great combination. Therefore, I am confused why it's going away.




That is weird how it's end of life already, I wonder if it infringed on someone's design and therefore they were forced to pull it. better order it while you can that's for sure. I wonder if anyone has been able to get the values of the cap and resistor yet. I've been making quads with the design I posted several pages back with great success. Everyone I've made them for are extremely pleased with them, on my last builds I've been using this setup and love it. 



 


Here is a pic of a 2-driver set I made for a friend. White faceplates with custom graphic.


----------



## cjxj (Jun 26, 2017)

So I have no idea whether this is helpful or relevant, but here's a pic of the backside of the GV. It would be a bit different from Shilosjustice's schematic, (although I don't quite understand the wiring on the HODVTEC in your (Shiloh's) schematic). I can't get a capacitance measurement on the components on the TWFK, but I measure resistance of 60ohms across the left component and 47.6 across the right. (all looking from the back as in the picture). For the life of me I can't even determine which side has 3 terminals as I don't see a 3rd on either.  I can't tell which way the TWFK is oriented but the number 31129 is on the right side and the resistance accross the left side of the TWFK is 25 ohms and the right 13.5.  The spec sheet shows the bottom left on the HODVTEC as the + and the upper as the - which connects to both of the lower terminals on the TWFK.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

cjxj said:


> So I have no idea whether this is helpful or relevant, but here's a pic of the backside of the GV. It would be a bit different from Shilosjustice's schematic, (although I don't quite understand the wiring on the HODVTEC in your (Shiloh's) schematic). I can't get a capacitance measurement on the components on the TWFK, but I measure resistance of 60ohms across the left component and 47.6 across the right. (all looking from the back as in the picture). For the life of me I can't even determine which side has 3 terminals as I don't see a 3rd on either.  I can't tell which way the TWFK is oriented but the number 31129 is on the right side and the resistance accross the left side of the TWFK is 25 ohms and the right 13.5.  The spec sheet shows the bottom left on the HODVTEC as the + and the upper as the - which connects to both of the lower terminals on the TWFK.




My schematic has nothing to do with the GV, it's just a usable quad for those wishing to have a working quad setup. As far as the readings above, the components would have to be removed to get an accurate reading on the resistance and capacitance, your readings are from a completed circuit factoring all the components which does not give the resistor or capacitor value.


----------



## discus123

Shilohsjustice said:


> That is weird how it's end of life already, I wonder if it infringed on someone's design and therefore they were forced to pull it. better order it while you can that's for sure. I wonder if anyone has been able to get the values of the cap and resistor yet. I've been making quads with the design I posted several pages back with great success. Everyone I've made them for are extremely pleased with them, on my last builds I've been using this setup and love it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Terrific !!!!   I wish i was your friend.


----------



## ForceMajeure

Regarding the end of life GV it might be not be the case...
Shiloh is right. Unfortunately you have to unsolder the components and measure them separately to get an accurate reading.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

For the greater good I decided to sacrifice a GV driver to determine once and for all the values of said components. 

1. There are no resistors in this quad. Just capacitors. 
2. I believe but not 100% the TWFK used is a 60173 which I will post a pic of, and I believe it already has one capacitor attached which is the same value as the one on the GV. Obviously the positive thermal wire would need re-routed to the config in my drawing. 

 TWFK-60173 available to purchase at digikey. Spec sheet is here.


 

The HODVTEC wiring is crossed, which I have attempted and it does work. 

The capacitors looking at the pic below are as follows. 

Right capacitor reading was 5.13uf - there could be a tolerence so it is likely a 5.2uf or a 5.0uf. 

Left capacitor reading was a 0.52uf - there could be a tolerence so it is likely a 0.47 uf as that is common.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Not a total loss, I will be able to reconnect capacitors to the GV and still use it.


----------



## ForceMajeure (Jun 27, 2017)

Nice work.
One thing to check before you solder everything back is the DC resistance of the twfk and hodvtec.
Because the 60173  seems to have a very high impedance.


This is the GV
 

This is the regular Hodvtec 31618


----------



## Shilohsjustice

ForceMajeure said:


> Nice work.
> One thing to check before you solder everything back is the DC resistance of the twfk and hodvtec.
> Because the 60173  seems to have a very high impedance.
> 
> ...




I will see if I can get the DC resistance later when I get home from work. 

I purchased some white UV curable ink today. I'm interested in seeing how it mixes and cures.


----------



## J-breezy

Does anyone know of a good link where I could learn to wire in capacitors and resistors, etc? I understand some of it but I don't know how to wire them in series and then do I wire multiple speakers together in parallel? Lol. I'm totally lost. I would just like a nice simple build that went into detail about wiring them up. I look at some of these diagrams on here and feel encouraged but at the end of the day I'm still lost lol. 
(Also, which capacitors and resistors do you guys use? It seems some are larger than others...not in value of resistance, but bigger in size. But then some guys use really small looking resistors,etc)
I know this is a ton to ask. So just any help at all would be appreciated! 
Thanks


----------



## ForceMajeure (Jun 28, 2017)

J-breezy said:


> Does anyone know of a good link where I could learn to wire in capacitors and resistors, etc? I understand some of it but I don't know how to wire them in series and then do I wire multiple speakers together in parallel? Lol. I'm totally lost. I would just like a nice simple build that went into detail about wiring them up. I look at some of these diagrams on here and feel encouraged but at the end of the day I'm still lost lol.
> (Also, which capacitors and resistors do you guys use? It seems some are larger than others...not in value of resistance, but bigger in size. But then some guys use really small looking resistors,etc)
> I know this is a ton to ask. So just any help at all would be appreciated!
> Thanks


Regarding components sizes you are looking at SMD components "usual sizes used" are 1206 and 0805 but you can go bigger or smaller





Soldering the component is like you said mostly, drivers with their components are usually connected in parallel with each others. Here are an example of a Low and High driver with a cap to the high as an high pass filter and a resistor to the low driver.
Pay attention that some tantalum smd capacitors have a polarity sign (brown line) so it should be toward the input positive (although I am still not sure if it really matters).


Here you have the same thing but with a low pass filter to the low driver, so the capacitor is wired in parallel to the bass driver


----------



## Shilohsjustice

I wasn't trolling the internet and came across this, thought I would share.


----------



## aratj

i am use GV without dumpfers, and sound good )


----------



## discus123

Shilohsjustice said:


> I wasn't trolling the internet and came across this, thought I would share.


Thanks !!!!


----------



## Im1fan2nv (Jun 29, 2017)

Shilohsjustice said:


> That is weird how it's end of life already, I wonder if it infringed on someone's design and therefore they were forced to pull it. better order it while you can that's for sure. I wonder if anyone has been able to get the values of the cap and resistor yet. I've been making quads with the design I posted several pages back with great success. Everyone I've made them for are extremely pleased with them, on my last builds I've been using this setup and love it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Shiloh,
1st, you may not know it, but thanks for all you do here! You're always helping guys out. I've learned so much from your post. Love those new ones, but all of yours are top shelf!!
I thought the same thing about those BA's. I bought the GV's for my 1st build. So far, I've got them to sound pretty well but have just now got the shell making process down. Haven't really put anything all together yet. Learned the hard and expensive way just playing around with some old DD's, now it's turned into a hobby. I'm working on trying to get the recommended R and C but am really just getting started on the details of the sound. I suppose I better order some if they are going away since you said they seem to be a good bundle. I just didn't want to fork out that kind of cash isf there was a problem I didn't know about. Couldn't find anything on the web.
Thanks again


----------



## piotrus-g

Shilohsjustice said:


> I wasn't trolling the internet and came across this, thought I would share.


The Fc are incorrect though.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

piotrus-g said:


> The Fc are incorrect though.



From what you know, are the caps correct values for this setup?


----------



## piotrus-g (Jun 30, 2017)

Shilohsjustice said:


> From what you know, are the caps correct values for this setup?


No, the impedance used in calculations is DC resistance, instead of Z impedance. As we know standard BA drivers are inductive and thus non-linear in impedance.

[Edit] Plus the scheme is mixed up. You wouldn't connect woofer portion through 2nd order cross-over, but tweeter, so even the assumed DC resistance is incorrectly put in equations.


----------



## ForceMajeure (Jun 30, 2017)

Spoiler: looks like the values Shiloh posted


----------



## tomekk (Jul 6, 2017)

1. I have the same three UM3X wiring schemes.



Spoiler: Spoiler









2. Can anyone confirm these values?

Edit: Confirmed



Spoiler: Spoiler


----------



## ForceMajeure

tomekk said:


> 1. I have the same three UM3X wiring schemes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


GK has been confirmed


----------



## Shilohsjustice

ForceMajeure said:


> GK has been confirmed


 
GK uses 22uf cap not a 0.22uf cap


----------



## cjxj

Shilohsjustice said:


> I will see if I can get the DC resistance later when I get home from work.
> 
> I purchased some white UV curable ink today. I'm interested in seeing how it mixes and cures.


Just wondering if the TWFK version used in the GV was confirmed?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

cjxj said:


> Just wondering if the TWFK version used in the GV was confirmed?




I have not yet confirmed which model TWFK it is.


----------



## ForceMajeure (Jul 1, 2017)

Shilohsjustice said:


> GK uses 22uf cap not a 0.22uf cap


Good eye, correct I got confused. Thanks for correcting.


----------



## tomekk (Jul 6, 2017)

OK, post edited with valid values.


I'm not convinced of "4" sound. They have been dismantled.


Spoiler: Spoiler


----------



## cjxj

Just went to look at GV availability at Mouser and they now show it as a "new" product and no longer indicate it being discontinued.


----------



## tomekk

1. I'm looking for a cool schematic for CI + DTEC + TWFK (2xTWFK?) 

2. Reshell in the UE900: Which filters did you prefer?  (white+ red?), (white + orange?)


----------



## MuZo2

Please dont post schematic of reversed engineered products. This thread might get locked.


----------



## ignotus

Just to let you know, Soundlink is selling the GV-32830 at a 25% discount (€86/pair): https://www.aliexpress.com/store/pr...32808892657.html?spm=2114.12010612.0.0.Ne8MZf. Sorely tempted.


----------



## ForceMajeure

ignotus said:


> Just to let you know, Soundlink is selling the GV-32830 at a 25% discount (€86/pair): https://www.aliexpress.com/store/pr...32808892657.html?spm=2114.12010612.0.0.Ne8MZf. Sorely tempted.


 thanks for the heads up


----------



## Shilohsjustice

ForceMajeure said:


> thanks for the heads up



Luke from DIYearphone.com has GV's for $50 each with dampers.


----------



## ForceMajeure

Shilohsjustice said:


> Luke from DIYearphone.com has GV's for $50 each with dampers.


----------



## SVTong

Does anyone have any experience in 3D printing their shells?  I'm thinking of investing in a Form2 SLA printer for an unrelated project, but it seems like a viable option to also use it for printing CIEMs.  Thoughts?


----------



## jbr1971

SVTong said:


> Does anyone have any experience in 3D printing their shells?  I'm thinking of investing in a Form2 SLA printer for an unrelated project, but it seems like a viable option to also use it for printing CIEMs.  Thoughts?



I have been thinking of doing the same, but I have concerns about putting the resin pieces in my ears. Applying a coat of Dreve Fotoplast Lack 3 (or similar) to the shells would probably be a good idea as well.


----------



## SVTong

Right.  A thin coat of Lack3 would also help smooth out the print surface, too.


----------



## J-breezy

SVTong said:


> Right.  A thin coat of Lack3 would also help smooth out the print surface, too.



I've been looking at getting a Form2 as well. I requested a free sample from them and there are indeed print lines but it could be sanded down. I simply put a thin layer of Fotoplast on the inside and outside of the sample and it cleared it up pretty nicely. (I'm sure it would be even better with some sanding as well).


----------



## SVTong

I just requested a sample today.  Can you post pictures of your sample with the fotoplast?  I've seen that people are able to make functional lenses with the Form2 with relatively little effort, so an IEM shell should be possible.


----------



## Genio Croto

Hello people, greetings from Arg, thanks for accepting me. New in forum, but old in doing iems.


----------



## J-breezy (Jul 11, 2017)

SVTong said:


> I just requested a sample today.  Can you post pictures of your sample with the fotoplast?  I've seen that people are able to make functional lenses with the Form2 with relatively little effort, so an IEM shell should be possible.



Here's a picture of what I did with mine. No sanding or anything. Got the sample and dipped the top half in resin let the excess drip off, uv cure, then put a thin layer of Egger LP/H Lack, uv cure. Obviously there is some loss in detail when it comes to the "interior portion of the sample" but I don't think that would be a problem with an iem shell since there aren't tons of tiny details (unlike this castle that has stairs and a DNA strand in the middle of it lol). And I'm sure this could be done better than what quickly I did. This took every bit of 4-5 minutes tops.
But you can see the print lines on the left side of the photo and they are much less noticeable to me on the right side.


----------



## J-breezy




----------



## SVTong

Yeah, that's pretty good, and I would sand the shells first before coating with fotoplast, so they should get pretty clear.


----------



## ForceMajeure

There is a Dreve resin made for stereolithography.


----------



## MuZo2

All the resins are toxic and come with warnings. You will need some resins which are FDA approved and cure at specific UV wavelength. Its hard to configure them on Form2 or and other printer. Resin cost is 250euro per 500ml. So not something for DIY purpose unless you have lot of money to burn on trial and error and perfecting cure times.


----------



## SVTong

Formlabs has a clear dental train that is non toxic that sells for $400 per liter. It's not cheap, but I don't think it's necessary if the printed shell is coated in Fotoplast after curing.


----------



## tranceaddict921

SVTong said:


> Does anyone have any experience in 3D printing their shells?  I'm thinking of investing in a Form2 SLA printer for an unrelated project, but it seems like a viable option to also use it for printing CIEMs.  Thoughts?



I have been doing this for universal IEMs using shapeways but now also using my own FDM printer with ABS filament.  See http://imgur.com/a/D7JIU


----------



## jbr1971

ForceMajeure said:


> There is a Dreve resin made for stereolithography.



From what I have found so far it appears the Dreve SLA resin is not compatible with the Formlabs printers, and possibly only Formlabs dental resins (as mentioned above) are.

I do not know of any other desktop SLA printers of equal or better quality than the Formlabs without going into a much higher price point. Does anyone else? Especially one that matches the wavelengths needed for the Dreve resin?


----------



## ForceMajeure

Here is the all catalog of Egger products. Always good to have.
BTW they also sell 3D printing materials (page 170)

http://www.danaflex.com/11_andre_produkter/pdf/Katalog_en_web.pdf


----------



## jbr1971

ForceMajeure said:


> Here is the all catalog of Egger products. Always good to have.
> BTW they also sell 3D printing materials (page 170)
> 
> http://www.danaflex.com/11_andre_produkter/pdf/Katalog_en_web.pdf



I had no idea any of the IEM material makers had their own 3D printers for sale. The Egger Evolupt looks like a great little unit. I just can't find any prices or places that offer it for sale.

https://egger-labor.de/Broschueren/Broschueren Startseite 2014 neu/evolupt_Folder_EN.pdf


----------



## piotrus-g

jbr1971 said:


> I had no idea any of the IEM material makers had their own 3D printers for sale. The Egger Evolupt looks like a great little unit. I just can't find any prices or places that offer it for sale.
> 
> https://egger-labor.de/Broschueren/Broschueren Startseite 2014 neu/evolupt_Folder_EN.pdf


Around €20k


----------



## jbr1971

The Formlabs printer, even with the expensive dental resin, is looking better and better every day.


----------



## zhannum (Jul 13, 2017)

Hi all! I've been lurking here for quite awhile, but I thought now would be the perfect time to jump in. Over the past couple months, I've been working on 3d printing CIEMs with a Formlabs Form 1+ printer. I think the results have been pretty successful. They are coated with Lack 3.

http://imgur.com/a/BKXm2
http://imgur.com/a/Fip3S
http://imgur.com/a/1ub5v
http://imgur.com/a/1ub5v
All fitted with GV, kapton tape removed, green and red dampers.


----------



## jbr1971

zhannum said:


> Hi all! I've been lurking here for quite awhile, but I thought now would be the perfect time to jump in. Over the past couple months, I've been working on 3d printing CIEMs with a Formlabs Form 1+ printer. I think the results have been pretty successful. They are coated with Lack 3. All fitted with GV, kapton tape removed, green and red dampers.



Very nice. For the color did you paint the inside with color uv acrylic and cure? Or did you paint the outside, cure, and add Lack 3 over top?


----------



## zhannum

jbr1971 said:


> Very nice. For the color did you paint the inside with color uv acrylic and cure? Or did you paint the outside, cure, and add Lack 3 over top?


I actually used epoxy dye from Castin' Craft. Just added drops directly to the clear resin before printing, so the shell itself is actually that color. I also applied Lack3 to the inside with a pipette to get them as optically transparent as possible. I have some actual fotoplast coming in though, I want to try dipping the shells instead.


----------



## Im1fan2nv (Jul 14, 2017)

ignotus said:


> Just to let you know, Soundlink is selling the GV-32830 at a 25% discount (€86/pair): https://www.aliexpress.com/store/pr...32808892657.html?spm=2114.12010612.0.0.Ne8MZf. Sorely tempted.


Thanks, got mine jusf in time.


----------



## rayhe19

Has anyone tried reshelling iems? I understand the effects of dampers, resistors, and capacitors to change the sound of BA drivers but I don't think I'll have the time and patience to re-solder components and strip tubing from BAs over and over. I was considering  reshelling TFZ Kings to make a CIEM with a DD considering they are on massdrop for $70 and the only thing ill need is just to make my own shells. Would this be a good idea?


----------



## cjxj

No experience with re-shelling as you're describing. However as a newbie now with a total of 4 CIEMs under my belt, your assumptions on what is easy and what is hard seems WAY reversed from what I've experienced.  For me, hooking up a set of BA's with dampers, crossover caps/resistors, and wiring the connectors are by far the easiest and quickest part of the build. This is especially true if you use a pre configured combo set like an HE, BK, etc or some proven recipes that you can easily find in this thread.  Impressions, molds, pouring, curing, finishing, installing connectors, face plates, polishing, etc, etc is far and away the most tedious and and takes (at least me) the most time by a large margin. "Your mileage may vary". Also looks like you'll have some challenges to port the DD into the canal as it's now an integral part of the universal shell. Perhaps for proof of concept, I'd suggest to try a $15 set of KZ zst's with detachable cable, easily removed connector, a DD in similar configuration and a BA in the canal. Good luck!


----------



## rayhe19 (Jul 15, 2017)

As a dentist and someone that has built model kits all my life, I don't think I will have too much trouble in the assembly and adjustment process. Not to mention I have good access to curing lights, curing resin, buffing wheels and the what have you. I was planning to get the kit from diyearphones to start things off. However, I don't have faith in my ability and knowledge to properly tune a multi BA setup. There are many products (universal IEMs) out there that are expensive, but sound weird to many people. I understand that a part of home made CIEMs is the ability to tune it specifically to your own preferences but that task is a little daunting for me starting off. It's definitely my dream to have that sort of expertise but I figured assembling and combining 2 packages into one would be a nice way to start on this hobby. I think your suggestion to have a trial run with a cheaper set is a really good idea and I really appreciate it!

For a dynamic driver setup, would I have to make a hole in the shell? I see that many dynamic drivers have that hole in their housing and I'm wondering what that does.


----------



## ForceMajeure (Jul 16, 2017)

Dynamic drivers require venting. Not only do they require it, but it's a big factor regarding their tuning. Front vent and back vent are typical way to control them. Some use both type, some use one of the two. There are different levels of venting in sealed iems (amount of obscuring/permeability), especially front venting that is a big part of subbass an lower bass tuning in sealed drivers...

Every driver has its own tuning so if you plan on transferring a TFZ driver for example, you'll have to recreate the same conditions/same chambering etc...


----------



## Audiotistic

ForceMajeure said:


> Dynamic drivers require venting. Not only do they require it, but it's a big factor regarding their tuning. Front vent and back vent are typical way to control them. Some use both type, some use one of the two. There are different levels of venting in sealed iems (amount of obscuring/permeability), especially front venting that is a big part of subbass an lower bass tuning in sealed drivers...
> 
> Every driver has its own tuning so if you plan on transferring a TFZ driver for example, you'll have to recreate the same conditions/same chambering etc...



Aren't there dd iem's without vents?


----------



## rayhe19

ForceMajeure said:


> Dynamic drivers require venting. Not only do they require it, but it's a big factor regarding their tuning. Front vent and back vent are typical way to control them. Some use both type, some use one of the two. There are different levels of venting in sealed iems (amount of obscuring/permeability), especially front venting that is a big part of subbass an lower bass tuning in sealed drivers...
> 
> Every driver has its own tuning so if you plan on transferring a TFZ driver for example, you'll have to recreate the same conditions/same chambering etc...



Hmm, I should probably just work with an armature bundle then since their datasheets and whatnot are more available. Lots to learn


----------



## jbr1971

Audiotistic said:


> Aren't there dd iem's without vents?



When I built mine with dd's and GK's I did not add any vents and I really like the bass in them. I will have to build another set with a vent to compare. I am curious now how much of a difference it will make.


----------



## tomekk

I'm interested in something unusual. Do you have any examples of impressions that you could not make IEM from?


----------



## cjxj

I think much more important to research impression characteristics that are required in order to make a proper fitting CIEM. It really doesn't matter how great your driver setup is if your shells don't fit perfectly, without leaks and yet with a comfortable fit.  Recommend search for "audiologist impression guide" from one of the custom in ear companies such as 64 audio or others. They usually have pictures of both good and bad impressions.


----------



## tomekk

I agree. Additionally not every audiologist knows what IEMs are. For example, my laryngologist/audiologist during a routine visit, saw IEMs in his life for the first time.



cjxj said:


> pictures of both good and bad impressions.



To clarify, I do not mean quality I mean untypical impressions from the ears (small size, unusual channels?). Examples when you have to say: Sorry mate, your ears/impressions are untypical for IEM.


----------



## Bad Username

Depending on the amount of drivers of course, but it would be rare to have ears that are too small or unusual in shape for ciems. Since you can build outward if necessary. The fit will not be flush but rather stick out slightly.


----------



## Spinnerauto

How to smooth surface When i use the lack3 it has a lot of bubbles and not smooth. Thank you


----------



## ForceMajeure

Spinnerauto said:


> How to smooth surface When i use the lack3 it has a lot of bubbles and not smooth. Thank you


If you have bubbles you are not doing it correctly. It requires a certain technique.
Sand the surface and do it again.
Make sure your are using a good brush, every stroke should have enough laqucer on it but not too much. You should do one smooth stroke pass and move to the next area. If you have a small bubble here and there try to remove it with the brush before it sits too long in the air. once you have lacquered the whole shell let it sits for 2-3 minutes before curing so the lacquer evens out. You could use the spinning motorized device Shiloh posted here (he posted how to diy it for a low cost). This can help spreading the lacquer while painting it before placing it for cure.


----------



## Bad Username (Jul 19, 2017)

Spinnerauto said:


> How to smooth surface When i use the lack3 it has a lot of bubbles and not smooth. Thank you



Unlike the resin you make shells with, the lacquer is water (or some kind of acetone/alcohol)  based and is susceptible to drying out.

Bubbles occur when the viscosity of your lacquer increases. This is due to drying out of the water content. If you are brushing over areas that have begun to dry up you will create bubbles and/or brush marks. Also, if you are storing your lacquer in a separate smaller brush bottle (such as a nail polish bottle), over time after opening the bottle many times the lacquer in the bottle will lose water content due to exposure to the air and you will find you are getting bubbles easily. Discard and replace with new lacquer will fix this.

As has been stated, a good brush is a must. Nail polish brushes are made for this.

If you do end up with some bubbles and it's too late to brush over (too far dried/hardened) without making it worse, you can carefully go over the spots with a heat gun which will get rid of them. But too much heat will cause more bubbles and cloudy finish so be careful.


----------



## Spinnerauto

Thank you for your help. That help me a lot.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Hello friends, it's been awhile since I posted. I just got back from a week in Dallas Texas and had to make some IEM's because of my addiction to the hobby. Here are a couple builds I have done this week. 




 



 

I'm trying the builds out with the 2-pin style connectors. I've had a few hiccups with the mmcx connectors on a couple builds where they are being used on a daily basis, they are losing connectivity. I actual like the look of the 2-pin as well and it feels much more solid.


----------



## Audiotistic

Shilohsjustice said:


> Hello friends, it's been awhile since I posted. I just got back from a week in Dallas Texas and had to make some IEM's because of my addiction to the hobby. Here are a couple builds I have done this week.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



How many drivers?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Audiotistic said:


> How many drivers?


 
Purple ones are dual drivers and the dark smoke are quad driver.


----------



## Audiotistic

Shilohsjustice said:


> Purple ones are dual drivers and the dark smoke are quad driver.



Nice!  Any crossovers?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Audiotistic said:


> Nice!  Any crossovers?



The two driver has built in crossover it is a simple GQ driver. 

Yes the quad has crossover, I used the setup I've posted a few times.


----------



## Audiotistic

Shilohsjustice said:


> The two driver has built in crossover it is a simple GQ driver.
> 
> Yes the quad has crossover, I used the setup I've posted a few times.



Good work man!  They look great!


----------



## discus123

Shilohsjustice said:


> Hello friends, it's been awhile since I posted. I just got back from a week in Dallas Texas and had to make some IEM's because of my addiction to the hobby. Here are a couple builds I have done this week.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I like the purple one.  Nice color.


----------



## ForceMajeure

Guys, there are a lot more participants in this thread since the last time it was asked... Maybe someone here used the Nice-Fit resin and can share his experience with it?
How is the consistency, how does it cure using the regular uv lamp, how is the transparency, does it have a yellow tint, can it be compared to the Egger/Dreve stuff?


----------



## Bad Username

ForceMajeure said:


> Guys, there are a lot more participants in this thread since the last time it was asked... Maybe someone here used the Nice-Fit resin and can share his experience with it?
> How is the consistency, how does it cure using the regular uv lamp, how is the transparency, does it have a yellow tint, can it be compared to the Egger/Dreve stuff?



All statements are made relative to Dreve Fotoplast S IO:

It is more viscous than the Dreve
I dont notice any relevant difference in curing, it produces nice shells with good even thickness.
It is a bit yellow tinted, not a perfect clear. So not ideal for clear shells.
It has a stronger and different scent
It is harder to wash off your hands

At 1/2 price of the Dreve it is good to practice with or if you are making color shells then honestly its almost the same.


----------



## ForceMajeure

Bad Username said:


> All statements are made relative to Dreve Fotoplast S IO:
> 
> It is more viscous than the Dreve
> I dont notice any relevant difference in curing, it produces nice shells with good even thickness.
> ...


Thank you for your response. I personally only use Egger/Dreve stuff. Always good to know


----------



## Bad Username

ForceMajeure said:


> Thank you for your response. I personally only use Egger/Dreve stuff. Always good to know



How does the egger resin compare to Dreve for you? Haven't used their resin yet only their lacquer.


----------



## ForceMajeure

Bad Username said:


> How does the egger resin compare to Dreve for you? Haven't used their resin yet only their lacquer.


I still have a bit of Egger left and should receive a new batch of Dreve S/IO soon so I could directly compare.
So far I am very impressed with the Egger stuff. Ultra clear, great consistency, very good impact resistance and the resin is still curing the same even after being stored for more than a year.


----------



## yomogi

I made a rotating machine.
The cost is about 10 dollars.



http://customiem.blogspot.jp/2017/07/blog-post_22.html


----------



## Firedrops

Been considering the CI 30050 and 30120 as alternatives to the 22955, but couldn't find more information on experiences (except for a brief mention here a few years ago). I also suspect they're the same product for different regions.

1. I cannot, for the life of me, find the specs sheet for 30120.

2. There are NO 30050 listings on Taobao, but plenty of 30120s. (Also, suspiciously cheap, many listings at at ~ RMB$6 each).

3. They look identical in photos (weak point, a lot of drivers look identical from the outside).

Has anyone ever played around with either, and what are your thoughts on them against the 22955?


----------



## piotrus-g

Firedrops said:


> Been considering the CI 30050 and 30120 as alternatives to the 22955, but couldn't find more information on experiences (except for a brief mention here a few years ago). I also suspect they're the same product for different regions.
> 
> 1. I cannot, for the life of me, find the specs sheet for 30120.
> 
> ...


I posted information here a couple months ago. With respective graphs 

30050 is lower impedance 2-tap version of 22955 with different port location pdf here: http://www.knowles.com/eng/content/download/4732/65490/version/2/file/CI-30050-000.pdf
30120 is similar impedance to 22955 2-tap version with shifted peak response towards 2-3kHz


----------



## Firedrops

piotrus-g said:


> I posted information here a couple months ago. With respective graphs
> 
> 30050 is lower impedance 2-tap version of 22955 with different port location pdf here: http://www.knowles.com/eng/content/download/4732/65490/version/2/file/CI-30050-000.pdf
> 30120 is similar impedance to 22955 2-tap version with shifted peak response towards 2-3kHz



Oh wow lol I'm so sorry, only saw the ~Feb 21 posts. That's quite informative! Thanks for the share.

Just to confirm, do both the 30050 and 30120 have a non-centered spout, and pretty much look identical?


----------



## piotrus-g

Firedrops said:


> Oh wow lol I'm so sorry, only saw the ~Feb 21 posts. That's quite informative! Thanks for the share.
> 
> Just to confirm, do both the 30050 and 30120 have a non-centered spout, and pretty much look identical?


Yes, they both have 1S spout position and they both look identical but they have completely different internals


----------



## Firedrops

Thanks.

The 30050 (and maybe the 30120 as well?) seems to have much better sub-bass extension than 22955, but the 22955 is vastly more popular in IEMs and CIEMs (seems only Flipears used the 30120 before, and it's a discontinued product), any idea why?


----------



## piotrus-g

Firedrops said:


> Thanks.
> 
> The 30050 (and maybe the 30120 as well?) seems to have much better sub-bass extension than 22955, but the 22955 is vastly more popular in IEMs and CIEMs (seems only Flipears used the 30120 before, and it's a discontinued product), any idea why?


Where this opinion comes from? 30050 is identical to 22955 in terms of output. 30120 is completely different though.


----------



## Firedrops

piotrus-g said:


> Where this opinion comes from? 30050 is identical to 22955 in terms of output. 30120 is completely different though.



My completely uneducated guess, thought 30120 would be more like 22955 due to the impedance.

For 30050 vs 22955, is it the 1S spout position that makes it a bit of an oddball to work with, making it unpopular?

What about the 30120? Is it worse than the 22955 as a sub?


----------



## piotrus-g

Firedrops said:


> For 30050 vs 22955, is it the 1S spout position that makes it a bit of an oddball to work with, making it unpopular?


don't know


Firedrops said:


> What about the 30120? Is it worse than the 22955 as a sub?


see graph


----------



## Smasher816 (Jul 24, 2017)

zhannum said:


> Hi all! I've been lurking here for quite awhile, but I thought now would be the perfect time to jump in. Over the past couple months, I've been working on 3d printing CIEMs with a Formlabs Form 1+ printer. I think the results have been pretty successful. They are coated with Lack 3.
> 
> http://imgur.com/a/BKXm2
> http://imgur.com/a/Fip3S
> ...



Wow, very impressive.

I have been looking into CIEMs and this looks like a great way to go. My school's maker lab actually has a Form2 machine and will let us print relatively small things for free. Could you (or someone else) provide a little bit more info on how you created the 3d models?

Edit: It looks like this is pretty similar to your setup and shouldn't be very costly since I already have an arduino and a friend with a DSLR. http://www.instructables.com/id/Build-a-DIY-Desktop-3d-Scanner-With-Infinite-Resol/. Plus something like this for the backdrop http://www.wikihow.com/Create-an-Inexpensive-Photography-Lightbox.


----------



## Firedrops

piotrus-g said:


> don't know
> 
> see graph



The 30120 seems superior to the 22955, having better bass response while pushing the peaks further into filtered/dampened territory. Are there perhaps other things that can't be captured on the FR graph that make the 22955 better?


----------



## ForceMajeure

Firedrops said:


> The 30120 seems superior to the 22955, having better bass response while pushing the peaks further into filtered/dampened territory. Are there perhaps other things that can't be captured on the FR graph that make the 22955 better?


it all depends on your design in the end. as you can see the 30120 looks good but once you incorporate it with other drivers the midbass to lower mids can be a bit too much if you go for the damping technique as a lowpass...on the other hand on the 22955 have a faster drop but 2k mids comes back so it could add itself to other drivers and make the 2k bump too high... it's all about finding the right balance.


----------



## piotrus-g

ForceMajeure said:


> it all depends on your design in the end. as you can see the 30120 looks good but once you incorporate it with other drivers the midbass to lower mids can be a bit too much if you go for the damping technique as a lowpass...on the other hand on the 22955 have a faster drop but 2k mids comes back so it could add itself to other drivers and make the 2k bump too high... it's all about finding the right balance.


My thoughts exactly. The 30120 seems to have a lot of mid bass boost, and while the shift to 3kHz is something you'd desire for fullrange driver the question is whether this driver is actually suitable for fullrange applications. It could be good for budget 2-way design probably - something like CI-30120 + WBFK.


----------



## cjxj

The above makes sense to me, especially the mid range push. I've built a couple of budget CIEM 2 ways with 30120s. Used a common CI/ED 10ohm, .22, .22 uf, orange, green recipe. One was for a friend and was paired with a 2389. He's very pleased with how they sound.  The other one was for me and is paired with an ED. I'm still a newbee novice (only 5 sets so far). Having fun and kind of flying blind until I get my test rig going, but subjectively compared to a set I have with HE's, I feel the lows/mids are a bit stronger compared to the highs. For general purpose and live music monitoring use, I actually like them enough not to want to crack them back open right now to fiddle with resistors and dampers, etc. Maybe sometime, but for now, I have a fresh set of shells and a mixture of BA's just waiting for me to find time and figure out what I want to try for my next build. ;>).


----------



## rayhe19

I have a question about phase. I understand that if you reverse the polarity on one BA, it can cause an electrical phase issue where one driver will cancel out audio from another driver. However, I'm reading up freqphase from JH audio and I don't really understand whats going on. According to Jerry Harvey, if the drivers are stacked in parallel lengths of tubing, the wavelengths will arrive at different times and cancel each other out. Isn't the speed of sound generally consistent and mainly dependent on temperature and composition of air? Because of this, wouldn't it actually make more sense to keep everything parallel? According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_sound#Effect_of_frequency_and_gas_composition mainly 10hz-100hz is affected by frequency and its at a rate of about 0.1m/s. 

I guess my question is how do you guys solve the issue of acoustic phasing canceling out certain frequencies at the crossover points if there even is one. Also, isn't acoustic phase more of a problem when you're using multiples of the same driver?


----------



## Bad Username (Jul 25, 2017)

rayhe19 said:


> I have a question about phase. I understand that if you reverse the polarity on one BA, it can cause an electrical phase issue where one driver will cancel out audio from another driver. However, I'm reading up freqphase from JH audio and I don't really understand whats going on. According to Jerry Harvey, if the drivers are stacked in parallel lengths of tubing, the wavelengths will arrive at different times and cancel each other out. Isn't the speed of sound generally consistent and mainly dependent on temperature and composition of air? Because of this, wouldn't it actually make more sense to keep everything parallel? According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_sound#Effect_of_frequency_and_gas_composition mainly 10hz-100hz is affected by frequency and its at a rate of about 0.1m/s.
> 
> I guess my question is how do you guys solve the issue of acoustic phasing canceling out certain frequencies at the crossover points if there even is one. Also, isn't acoustic phase more of a problem when you're using multiples of the same driver?



You don't. Not perfectly anyhow.

You are right, speed of sound propagation is more or less the same regardless of frequency. The delay we are dealing with is due to the crossover. It's called phase shift.
You cannot build a crossover without a capacitor. Capacitors take time to charge, and therefore have a tiny delay before passing a signal through. The delay is 90 degrees of one cycle per order of crossover. Because of the position of the capacitor in a crossover circuit, the high frequency always leads,and the low always lags. A 2nd order crossover will have a 180 degree phase shift. And therefore be perfectly out of phase, equivalent to wiring one driver in reverse. We can correct this shift by wiring either the woofer or tweeter inverted, and they will be in phase (at the crossover point). A 4th order will be 360 degrees out of phase, an entire cycle, and therefore will still technically perform as perfectly in phase at the crossover point.
The flat graph JH audio is posting must have its scale zoomed out very very far, marketing trick. In reality a flat phase is not possible so long as you have a crossover. Because every single frequency is delayed by a different amount (the lower the frequency the greater the delay). We can only achieve phase coherency at the crossover points. The phase on a graph will still look like a linear upward slope, not flat. Using tube length differences will again only shift phase at the crossover points. It does not result in perfect phase like they show on their graph. What they are claiming is simply impossible as far as I am aware.


----------



## ForceMajeure

45deg per order not 90


----------



## Bad Username (Jul 25, 2017)

Well, assuming you are applying the crossover for both highpass and low pass. Then the total phase shift is 90 degrees at fc.

High pass will be +90 deg at DC, +45 deg at the crossover frequency, and 0 deg at high frequency.
Low pass is 0 deg at DC, - 45 deg at crossover frequency, and - 90 deg  at high frequency. So you are looking at a 90 degree shift to deal with.

But yes, technically you have +/- 45deg per order of crossover at fc


----------



## rayhe19

Do you guys know what the crossover setup is in a knowles GV? I was planning to use one as a driver for my ciem. Also, would you recommend adding a CL with a high ohm damper as a subbass driver? Or will that be too much bass? Thanks!


----------



## Firedrops

ForceMajeure said:


> it all depends on your design in the end. as you can see the 30120 looks good but once you incorporate it with other drivers the midbass to lower mids can be a bit too much if you go for the damping technique as a lowpass...on the other hand on the 22955 have a faster drop but 2k mids comes back so it could add itself to other drivers and make the 2k bump too high... it's all about finding the right balance.





piotrus-g said:


> My thoughts exactly. The 30120 seems to have a lot of mid bass boost, and while the shift to 3kHz is something you'd desire for fullrange driver the question is whether this driver is actually suitable for fullrange applications. It could be good for budget 2-way design probably - something like CI-30120 + WBFK.



Very good points there, I didn't pick up on the mid boost at first. Guess I'll stick to the 22955 for my 3-way then. Thanks for the discussion!


----------



## Squirg

,x,x,x





discus123 said:


> I like the purple one.  Nice color.


----------



## tranhieu (Jul 28, 2017)

Not sure if this's allowed, I will delete this post upon request. But I am having several 2389, 2356, 1723, 2600, 23e25, 26e25 lyring around in the drawer here. Bought them in bulk for R&D but ended up using only a few (the design was completed much faster than we thought).

Just want to collect back what we paid, or even less than that is fine, any amount is also ok.


----------



## Im1fan2nv (Jul 28, 2017)

I've looked and looked for a way to splice. I just can't fit 3 tubes so I need to splice and make a Y-splitter so I only have 2 tubes. Any help with photos would be greatly appreciated. I've made some that seem fine until I put them in the shell and they break and leak because I need to bend the tubing to fit my drivers in the shell. I'm using Foto to bond with a coat a laq on top of that.


----------



## Xymordos

Im1fan2nv said:


> I've looked and looked. I just can't fit 3 tubes so I need to splice and make a Y-splitter. Any help with photos would be greatly appreciated. I've made some that seem fine until I put them in the shell and the break apart because I need to bend the tubing to fit my drivers in the shell. I'm using Foto to bond with a coat a laq on top of that.


I sometimes squeeze the end of two small tubes a bit to fit them into a bigger tube. The bigger tube then extends to the end of the bore.


----------



## Firedrops (Jul 28, 2017)

Just came across this while looking around taobao.





The top label is the most interesting one - it says that the electrical component (referring to capacitors/resistors) can be directly mounted across the dynamic driver's 2 terminals.

What exactly does this do? Is it actually just acting as a low-pass filter (having a cap parallel to the driver)?


----------



## Im1fan2nv

I just wanted to post a photo of my attempt to use the Ballistic Gel for a mold. If it's done correctly, it works great. Clear as can be. My impression was not as smooth as I needed but you get the point as to what the gel can do for you. I ended up making an acrylic impression to make the final mold. Wax is not an option because the melting temp for the gel is about 250F. If anyone is interested in the process I used, just let me know.


----------



## Im1fan2nv

rayhe19 said:


> Do you guys know what the crossover setup is in a knowles GV? I was planning to use one as a driver for my ciem. Also, would you recommend adding a CL with a high ohm damper as a subbass driver? Or will that be too much bass? Thanks!



Shilohsjustice posted GV crossover pg. 442


----------



## ForceMajeure

yomogi said:


> I made a rotating machine.
> The cost is about 10 dollars.
> 
> 
> ...



That's a cool solution.
It looks like it might be turning too much (eyeballing it it looks like ~30 turns per minute). Can you make it turn slower?


----------



## Im1fan2nv

I have a question, I dropped my completed unit minus the faceplate in glycerin. Since it's oil base, I figured I'd wash it in alcohol. I figured I didn't really have a choice. So, the question is do you think the dampers and everything will dry out and still work?


----------



## ForceMajeure (Jul 29, 2017)

haha, I guess it probably will work. but only time will tell us.

The way you say that the unit was done but with no plate makes me think...
The viscosity of the glycerin probably wasn't able to penetrate the damped tubing completely so it didn't got into the drivers hopefully .


----------



## Im1fan2nv (Jul 29, 2017)

ForceMajeure said:


> haha, I guess it probably will work. but only time will tell us.
> 
> The way you say that the unit was done but with no plate makes me think...
> The viscosity of the glycerin probably wasn't able to penetrate the damped tubing completely so it didn't got into the drivers hopefully .



Very good point. Only 1 of 3 was without a damper. And, if it's a good seal, it would be difficult for it to get that far in. Still a little concerned about the vent holes but they are so small, with the viscosity, those too would be hard to penetrate. Thanks for the confidence booster. I'll let you know. It is kinda funny, well at least it made my wife laughed. Hundred bucks there so I didn't laugh too much.


----------



## tranhieu

Not exactly DIY but here's what I've made recently


----------



## Xymordos

Wow is that chrome or steel?


----------



## tranhieu

Xymordos said:


> Wow is that chrome or steel?



925 Silver to be exact.


----------



## Xymordos

Holy... how did you make that? That's gorgeous. Wouldn't silver will scratch easily?


----------



## ForceMajeure

Hot!

hello ear?


----------



## tranhieu

Xymordos said:


> Holy... how did you make that? That's gorgeous. Wouldn't silver will scratch easily?



Traditional crafting technique, nothing special though, the hard part was to tweak the impression so that the final earpieces fit well enough.

They're very prone to scratching, but a layer of coating would prevent that... to some extent.



ForceMajeure said:


> Hot!
> 
> hello ear?



Nope, looking forward to those guys' product also.


----------



## MuZo2

I think Fitear and Kumitatek lab also had similar CIEMS.


----------



## tranhieu

MuZo2 said:


> I think Fitear and Kumitatek lab also had similar CIEMS.


Not sure about Kumitate but Fitear's are Titanium shells. A true pain when it comes to polishing LOL.


----------



## Bribo

Tranhieu, I was thinking about doing the same thing for my next pair, did you do a wax impression and then cast the silver ?  I tried to do a sand casting but could not part halves without damaging the mold.


----------



## Bribo

Just finished these up last night for my brother, they have GK's for guts.


----------



## alvon19 (Aug 3, 2017)

Hi Everyone,

I want to express my deepest gratitude for this wonderful thread....So much to learn here, and I wish to encourage everyone to keep on trying and practicing.....more trials will be equal to better end results...

Here to share some of our work (thanks so much for this thread) :


----------



## Im1fan2nv

Im1fan2nv said:


> Very good point. Only 1 of 3 was without a damper. And, if it's a good seal, it would be difficult for it to get that far in. Still a little concerned about the vent holes but they are so small, with the viscosity, those too would be hard to penetrate. Thanks for the confidence booster. I'll let you know. It is kinda funny, well at least it made my wife laughed. Hundred bucks there so I didn't laugh too much.



Update. Unit dryed out and worked like a champ. Not sure of any long term issues if indeed the glycerin got inside. I suppose one day it could get old and thicken up.


----------



## rayhe19

Has anyone tried a build with a RAB either by itself or with a CL? Also, I'm wondering if you guys could show me how to use the previously suggested crossover calculator here: http://sim.okawa-denshi.jp/en/Fkeisan.htm

I see that if you put in a resistance and capacitance in the calculator it shows whats the cutoff frequency. However, doesn't the impedance of the drivers also play a part?


----------



## tranhieu

Bribo said:


> Tranhieu, I was thinking about doing the same thing for my next pair, did you do a wax impression and then cast the silver ?  I tried to do a sand casting but could not part halves without damaging the mold.


Yes I did, we need the wax for some proper buildup. Metal shrinks a lot after cooling down.


----------



## Bribo

tranhieu said:


> Yes I did, we need the wax for some proper buildup. Metal shrinks a lot after cooling down.


Thats Awsome, I would live to see a photo of your setup.  Did you use a plaster cast or delft clay mold ?  How did you cast the interior void and tube channel ?  I was thinking about just casting it solid and then milling out the interior, but have not figured out the tube channels yet.


----------



## Lucas Taboada

Hi guys, I'm new so first I wanna thank everyone for all the information you guys put in here, really really good stuff.

I'm planning doing 2 CIEM and I have some questions that if someone could help me it would be awesome. (I already searched and I didn't find the exactly answers, but if someone has already spoken about this I'm sorry for asking again)

First one is: how can I make an negative mold that last "forever"? because I wanna make a master mold of my impressions first, so I can cut later and don't worry about ruining the original, since it's my first time doing that, and I can't afford making another impression right now.

For the final negative mold I'm thinking about using gelatin or some duplicater material called k-27 that I found here in brazil, I believe its some type of hydrocolloid, but from what I've read, none of these hold the form more than one week. 

Maybe the best option is making a negative, then a positive with silicone or (?) so I can cut these and not the original impression?

Regarding drivers I'm thinking about using the CI-22955 for a one driver CIEM (not sure yet), and GK for a triple driver, mainly because I don't fully understand crossovers wiring and etc.. so these are ready to go, just weld the cable adapter wires and it's ready, right?

If anyone have some cheap alternative to the drivers, like taobao or something.. it would help a lot, because shipping to brazil is very expensive and we don't have a knowles reseller here I believe.

What dampers should I use for those drivers? I'm going to use the CIEMs in live shows for monitoring/mixing and listen to music on my phone.

Sorry for the big post, thanks!


----------



## Bad Username

Lucas Taboada said:


> Hi guys, I'm new so first I wanna thank everyone for all the information you guys put in here, really really good stuff.
> 
> I'm planning doing 2 CIEM and I have some questions that if someone could help me it would be awesome. (I already searched and I didn't find the exactly answers, but if someone has already spoken about this I'm sorry for asking again)
> 
> ...



Use Wax to make a negative mold of the impression. Then make more ear impressions into the negative wax mold. Note that you will need to drill a small hole to vent out the ear canal. Also dont use the foam stopper.
For your final negative mold, if you want a long lasting one you need silicone duplicating material, for Dreve it is called Fotosil. I wouldnt bother with this if your budget has limits, just make a master positive mold out of acrylic and cast a new negative each time.


----------



## GeneBush

Do you guys have problems matching DWFK with HODVTEC and SONION 38am007m/8a? I'm having some phase cancellations as soon as I connect it. Tried everything from switching polarity to changing HPF values towards more mid high on the DWFK but nothing seems to works. I'm using 2nd order xo. Any ideas what might be causing this?


----------



## tranhieu

Bribo said:


> Thats Awsome, I would live to see a photo of your setup.  Did you use a plaster cast or delft clay mold ?  How did you cast the interior void and tube channel ?  I was thinking about just casting it solid and then milling out the interior, but have not figured out the tube channels yet.



I'm not sure about the specifics since I have my jewelry craftman friend made them for me. But he cast the hollow shells right off the bat so no milling at all.


----------



## ziixtreme (Sep 13, 2017)

Time to start it up. I am starting my CIEM business~ Will launch the website within a month time.


----------



## piotrus-g

ziixtreme said:


> Time to start it up. I am starting my CIEM business~ Will launch the website within a month time.
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/elysian-acoustic-labs-1st-malaysian-ciem.857162/


congrats! ...but you might want to read head-fi TOS


----------



## J-breezy

Hey guys, I made a pair of quads for a friend of mine a couple months back (Knowles GV) and he told me yesterday that he thinks his left ear is going out. But the way he described it I don't think it's losing connection and just stopping altogether. He said he thinks it is gradually getting worse over time? He uses them all the time caus he makes his living playing bass. He also said that he doesn't think he blew the speakers cause he's cautious about never going over half volume. So I'm just at a loss...
Have any of you guys ever experienced anything like that? 
Also, do any of you guys have a good way that you get faceplates back off? Cause I'm dreading that!! I want to salvage the faceplate if I can at all obviously. 
Thanks!


----------



## ForceMajeure

J-breezy said:


> Hey guys, I made a pair of quads for a friend of mine a couple months back (Knowles GV) and he told me yesterday that he thinks his left ear is going out. But the way he described it I don't think it's losing connection and just stopping altogether. He said he thinks it is gradually getting worse over time? He uses them all the time caus he makes his living playing bass. He also said that he doesn't think he blew the speakers cause he's cautious about never going over half volume. So I'm just at a loss...
> Have any of you guys ever experienced anything like that?
> Also, do any of you guys have a good way that you get faceplates back off? Cause I'm dreading that!! I want to salvage the faceplate if I can at all obviously.
> Thanks!


1st check for earwax. it might be the problem. 

2nd it might be the tubing detaching itself from the driver.

3rd getting the FP is tricky it depends if you glued it (maybe wood plate) or if it's all acrylic.
If you need to keep the FP and cannot take it apart you should use the CIEM to make an investment out of it so you can make a new shell and then you could break the body shell on the original making sure you can use everything without damaging the plate.

You'll need a cutting wheel (use it the less) and some sharp small pliers (use this the most as it is easier to control and cut the acrylic)


----------



## Bad Username (Aug 8, 2017)

J-breezy said:


> Hey guys, I made a pair of quads for a friend of mine a couple months back (Knowles GV) and he told me yesterday that he thinks his left ear is going out. But the way he described it I don't think it's losing connection and just stopping altogether. He said he thinks it is gradually getting worse over time? He uses them all the time caus he makes his living playing bass. He also said that he doesn't think he blew the speakers cause he's cautious about never going over half volume. So I'm just at a loss...
> Have any of you guys ever experienced anything like that?
> Also, do any of you guys have a good way that you get faceplates back off? Cause I'm dreading that!! I want to salvage the faceplate if I can at all obviously.
> Thanks!



Basically what ForceMajeure said. 
If the driver inside is vented, do not cut as the dust can get into the holes. Use a small to medium size pliers. Put it over the ear canal part and carefully crush/break it, don't use much force it is very easy to crush that section (assuming it has more than one bore, otherwise start higher up near the base of the canal where it is hollow), make sure there are no drivers where you are crushing, dampers will survive as long as you don't overdue it.  Once that is complete you can begin to slowly crush and peel away the shell piece by piece carefully. Once enough of the shell is gone you can remove the components. Then you can take the remaining shell with the faceplate and sand off the shell part to preserve the faceplate. It's easier than it sounds.


----------



## Firedrops (Aug 11, 2017)

rayhe19 said:


> Has anyone tried a build with a RAB either by itself or with a CL? Also, I'm wondering if you guys could show me how to use the previously suggested crossover calculator here: http://sim.okawa-denshi.jp/en/Fkeisan.htm
> 
> I see that if you put in a resistance and capacitance in the calculator it shows whats the cutoff frequency. However, doesn't the impedance of the drivers also play a part?



I actually made a ghetto DIY with the RAB 32257 recently. The goal was to just make something that was tiny and can be worn comfortably to sleep, but it turned out to have surprisingly good sound quality (decent bass, mids, detail, and soundstage that I didn't expect from a 1BA setup). No dampers or electrical crossovers of any sort was used, it was just wired direct and tucked under 2 layers of heatshrink and glued into repurposed metal bores. As with most BAs, you really want to ensure a perfect seal. Also, rumours have it the Etymotic ER4XR also uses the RABs with a green damper. It's probably the best and simplest single BA solution if you can't fit a pre-made dual (GU/GV) or a triple (GK).



I'm actually going to attempt a 3-way (with doubled drivers) with the 32257s as mid/full-range drivers, would love any advice and suggestions. Can probably only put together and test 2 months later, though.

Planned set-up is
Lows: 2xCI with yellow dampers, probably gonna stick a 10-20 ohm on them. Might RC low-pass one of them using Piotr's 75Hz design. Should I wire these in reverse polarity?
Mids/full: 2xRAB grey/white/brown dampers. Probably not gonna RC filter them...
Highs: 2xTWFK or 2xSWFK(32255, with peaks shifted and tamed) or 1xTWFK+1xSWFK, brown dampers. If TWFK: usual 1uF on the FK, 22uF on the WBFK for high-pass? If SWFK: just 1uF on one/both FKs? (I've never had a chance to play with SWFKs yet, though)

I've got almost all regular cap values up to 47uF


----------



## Fabs

Hi,

Which Dampers are you using with the Knowles GV driver?
I was using 1500 for TWFK and 3300 for HODVTEC  and I tried without dampers.
I only have the the Samsung galaxy s7 as player. But soon I want to buy maybe the fiio x3. 
The bass is really weak, comes from the s7.. hab not enough power? This will be getting better with maybe the fiio x3?
Rest of the sound is really nice and better than everything I heard before.


----------



## Firedrops

Fabs said:


> Hi,
> 
> Which Dampers are you using with the Knowles GV driver?
> I was using 1500 for TWFK and 3300 for HODVTEC  and I tried without dampers.
> ...



That's strange. I don't think it's a problem with the S7 (I have it too, and it's a very capable player for most IEMs). Did you check that the drivers are properly sealed, spout-to-eartip?


----------



## Spinnerauto

Anyone know where to buy the switch like this ? Thank You


----------



## Xymordos

I think that's the Sonion SW96


----------



## Spinnerauto

Do you know where to order it


----------



## Xymordos

From a Sonion distributor, but in Hong Kong the min. quantity is 100pcs...


----------



## MuZo2

Read about another success story from member here..
http://theheadphonelist.com/warbler-audios-prelude-a-labour-of-love/2/


----------



## SVTong

My GV's just arrived, too.  I've got the same question - what is the recommended damper setup for them?


----------



## Im1fan2nv

Fabs said:


> Hi,
> 
> Which Dampers are you using with the Knowles GV driver?
> I was using 1500 for TWFK and 3300 for HODVTEC  and I tried without dampers.
> ...





SVTong said:


> My GV's just arrived, too.  I've got the same question - what is the recommended damper setup for them?



The feedback I received here was to use green and red dampers. However, I used white and gray and I have a very similar response curve to the shure SE535's. I can't listen to them because they are for my mother-in-law so I just have the curves to go by. She said they sound better than the SE535s. I tried adding an extra HODVTEC spliced with the GV HODVTEC tube, hoping for more on the low end but it did not seem to help with the GV so I removed it. I'm still very new with this so take it for what it's worth and I welcome any feedback.


----------



## tomekk

I would like to introduce you my new test pigs . They are made of impression material.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

tomekk said:


> I would like to introduce you my new test pigs . They are made of impression material.




I did something very similar, I've been using Luke's veritas mic kit and I made plugs for single, dual, triple, and quads with impression silicone just like yours. It works well and is a controllable variable which makes measuring very consistent. Great job!!! That's the kind of thinking that supports the DIY thread, there are so many people who view this thread to learn how to make IEM's there are a hand full of contributors that keep this thread pushing the boundaries. Thanks for the post, maybe you could post how you made it with the measuring rig so others can benefit from it.


----------



## ForceMajeure

tomekk said:


> I would like to introduce you my new test pigs . They are made of impression material.


That's just great! Very clever.
Great way to have a "secured and sealed" listen for testing, also easy to add an eartip to it. Can even plug holes with blue tack that are not in use or seal smaller ID tube.
Love it.


----------



## ostewart

Hi guys, this is not my thread but a guy is needing some recommendations on glue to repair the housing of his universal JH audio's, thought you would be the best people to ask 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/disaster-repair-advice-for-jh-ak-rosie-casing.858019/


----------



## tomekk

Shilohsjustice said:


> maybe you could post how you made it with the measuring rig


It's a very good idea! I have a lot free time now.

Today I finished only one earpiece, but I couldn't wait to share this project with you. Dualbore, 3-Way fully configurable crossover. Classic: CI (two slots: cap + res) + TWFK (two slots for caps).
There was not enough space inside, because of the pins from the DIP socket, but somehow I managed to put everything in a shell.


----------



## ForceMajeure (Aug 19, 2017)

Here are my impressions so far between the Dreve Fotoplast S-IO and Egger LP/H

Smell: Dreve material has a more perfumed smell. Egger has an "earthy" smell that is stronger.

Viscosity: Dreve is slightly thinner and once heated under the UV light it get's slightly more liquid. So if you plan to do retouches that need "3D volume" it's more difficult depending on the angle because it will start to run thinner as it heats. Potentially "drip/leak" before it cures. Egger is thicker and holds its shape better under heat.

Curing time: Dreve needs more energy than Egger thus slightly longer curing time. If you plan on curing with a small UV lamp you have to take it into consideration. Of course if you have a professional curing station it might not be that different because of its power. For a transparent shell with good thickness, plan to add another 30-40sec to a min to get the same result. Egger cures faster.

Tacky layer: Because of the difference between curing times it might give you the impressions that Dreve leaves more of the tacky layer when in fact it's part of the resin that might not have cured fully. But overall, I still think Dreve leaves a slightly tackier layer and wiping it with alcohol might result in a hazier surface. But a very fast/short buff brings the shine back. On the Egger stuff, usually after the correct curing time, wiping it with alcohol works without leaving an hazy layer. Of course the glycerin bath is still recommended for both. this is more a talk for faceplates and retouch.

Transparency: Both resins give exceptional results in term of transparency. No yellow hue even when overcured. Maybe just maybe the Dreve might look even more transparent/glass like but it's hard to judge because one might have cured with slightly more thicker wall (I am talking microns here) thus affecting the light refraction.

Shelf time: I had Egger resin for more than a year stored in room temperature and was still curing as good as when it was fresh. I didn't have the Dreve long enough to judge but the expiration date on the bottle gives me at least 2 years.

Overall both resins are good. I might recommend the Egger more for DIYers because of it's shorter curing times and thickness. But you can't go wrong going with both.


----------



## ForceMajeure (Aug 19, 2017)

Also regarding the the difference between both resins I forgot...

Mixing colors: When mixing dyes because of the relative thinness of the Dreve fotoplast in comparison to the Egger, it creates more air bubbles that will hold on longer in the Dreve mix. So it takes longer for them to disappear. This is a thing to consider because without a pressure/vaccum pot you can't speed up the bubble dissipation process. I don't recommend using a heat source like a fire torch on resin to "bring out" the bubbles to the surface prior pouring for cure.
I always recommend mixing slowly with longer movements for a longer time, that will help decreasing the chances for bubbles.


----------



## tomekk

When I used fotoplast s hart I had problems dissolving dye powder. I used a proxon with a brush. After a few minutes of spinning and setting aside for 24 hours, I got a perfectly absorbed colored powder. Very strange technique, but it worked. I didn't test with S / IO.


----------



## MuZo2

ForceMajeure said:


> Here are my impressions so far between the Dreve Fotoplast S-IO and Egger LP/H
> 
> Overall both resins are good. I might recommend the Egger more for DIYers because of it's shorter curing times and thickness. But you can't go wrong going with both.



What about cure wavelength?


----------



## ForceMajeure (Aug 24, 2017)

MuZo2 said:


> What about cure wavelength?


Both require 320-400nm

Dreve polylux 1000N curing machine outputs 315-400nm
Egger EL1 curing machine outputs 360-390nm

Another thing not related to resins but to lacquer is that Egger L/PH lacquer requires 4-5min to cure. Dreve Fotoplast lacquer 3 takes 60sec


----------



## sanekn

Hello guys, i'm still trying to do some stuff. Recently tried out amphenol mmcx connectors, this is some snug fit!

Finish is still sketchy tho :


----------



## MuZo2

sanekn nice work


----------



## tomekk

A short reflection: Knowledge of musical instruments, e.g. the ability to visualize a drum kit and embed it in space is very helpful in creating a crossover and arranging the scene.I love the live sound of drums. With all of high tones and sabiliants from cymbals. And of course blast beats .


----------



## sanekn

MuZo2 said:


> sanekn nice work


Thank you sir! Now I have 4 pairs left to make. 

It's for my friends, hardcore band Weaksaw.

Now I have 2 members having a strange ear canal form. The tip is wider than the canal so it's making it imossible for them to fit the shell at all. I guess, I need to sand down the tip a little. Will see.


----------



## tomekk

sanekn said:


> hardcore band Weaksaw



This is my taste in music. 


I have a complex question. I have noticed in some projects (more than 6 drivers) additional driver with elongated tube (20-30mm). Is this driver included in the kit to improve the scene? It is full-range tuned? _(In my opinion they are behind the high pass filter)_.  How to reconcile phases in this configuration? For example, I recognized SWFK.


----------



## MuZo2




----------



## Bad Username

tomekk said:


> This is my taste in music.
> 
> 
> I have a complex question. I have noticed in some projects (more than 6 drivers) additional driver with elongated tube (20-30mm). Is this driver included in the kit to improve the scene? It is full-range tuned? _(In my opinion they are behind the high pass filter)_.  How to reconcile phases in this configuration? For example, I recognized SWFK.



It is a high frequency driver. SWFK is a tweeter/supertweeter, you will always highpass it. The long tubing is an attempt to correct phase shift caused by a high pass filter.


----------



## tomekk

My steampunk configurable crossover design is finished.The design of the housing has been grinded from my ear impression. Fits perfectly to my ear.



Simple design: dynamic driver with front logo and nondetachable cable.


----------



## ForceMajeure

Awesome work!
what did you use to make the white plates?


----------



## tomekk

Thank You! 



ForceMajeure said:


> what did you use to make the white plates?



Fotoplast + white dye for epoxy resin (with small drop of yellow). Logo is a piece of paper:] I am waiting for the ordered engraving laser.

I advise everyone to be careful about the contamination of uv lacquer. I was very careful and cleaned exactly the shells, but some micro dust got probably through the brush to the container. Sad: / I hope they fall to the bottom of the bottle.


----------



## discus123

Photo from other forum IEM MH334 ! Any ideas about the value of the resistor and the capacitor ? Thanks ....


----------



## tomekk

5Ohm, 680nF I think so.


----------



## Im1fan2nv (Aug 27, 2017)

My 1st complete shell, now it's time to stuff it. The tip is a little splotchy because I tried to make a swirl and by the time it cured, it was all blended.


How do I make my photos smaller? Resize before posting? Or can I dictate the size?


----------



## nocchi

discus123 said:


> Photo from other forum IEM MH334 ! Any ideas about the value of the resistor and the capacitor ? Thanks ....



I also posted this on reddit, its 5.1ohm and 0.68uf


----------



## tomekk

Congrats! First CIEM: The more you have, the more you want.   How about the MMCX quality? And standard question on this forum: How did you color the resin?



Im1fan2nv said:


> How do I make my photos smaller? Resize before posting? Or can I dictate the size?



Resize to screen and add


----------



## Im1fan2nv

tomekk said:


> Congrats! First CIEM: The more you have, the more you want.   How about the MMCX quality? And standard question on this forum: How did you color the resin?



Thanks tomekk!
Yes, this quickly turned into an obsession. I spend all my extra time and even some not so extra time doing this. 
I bought 4 MMCX from Mouser and bought a pack of 50 from one of my new favorite sites Aliexpress. Found that place thanks to this site. The quality seems to be about the same for both. I really haven't actually used them a ton yet but seem ok. I went with them because I have a pair of Shure's and I liked them from using those.

The color is from Resin Obsession it's their dye. Like most here, I tried many things to color and some were sure flops and a couple work similar to this dye. The real thing to note is that it takes much longer to cure something with color in it. I still want a swirl to turn out so I will continue to try different things to get there unless someone here has had some luck? I used to do guitar inlays and had some mother of pearl blanks left, so the face face plate is a mother of pearl coated with the same color as the shell.

Just wanted to give a big shout out to everyone here, Thanks for all your hard work and generosity in sharing it!


----------



## tomekk

aliexpress sales started today! It is not my fault if you spend all the money.


----------



## tomekk

Next idea and variation with DIP sockets. Two versions of adapter for tuning and testing.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Great job!!!!


----------



## ForceMajeure

tomekk said:


> Thank You!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What machine did you order?


----------



## J-breezy

Any of you guys ever done a 6 driver setup that you really like? If so, which speakers did you use? And maybe some cap and resistor values? Just looking into experimenting on a 6 driver for myself.


----------



## J-breezy

Also, what tools do you guys use to sand/buff in the tiny places on the iem? I always use a shiny laquer but I'm wanting to buff one to shininess but I'm not sure how to get in those tiny places to effectively sand or buff. Thanks!


----------



## Drewminus

Hi all, I've had a good read through this thread and associated literature and I'm interested in the idea of making some IEM's but I have a couple of questions.
Firstly does anyone know of anywhere in Australia (or nearby) that sells Dreve fotoplast or something similar?
Also out of curiosity has anyone had a go at making some machined aluminium UIEM's like campfire audio does?
Thanks


----------



## Im1fan2nv

J-breezy said:


> Any of you guys ever done a 6 driver setup that you really like? If so, which speakers did you use? And maybe some cap and resistor values? Just looking into experimenting on a 6 driver for myself.



Messing around, I tried the GV-32830 (Quad) and an HODVTEC(Dual). It sounded great however not any better than with just the GV. I tried a few low pass crossovers on the HODVTEC in an attempt to obtain better sub-bass but it seemed to cut the entire FR curve not just the additional HODVTEC curve. The GV sounds so good by itself, I just scrapped the idea and wen with the GV Quad.


----------



## Arturo Sallas

Hello Forum.

This is my first post but I´ve been digging through this thread a lot to gather resources. I´m planning to start building IEM´s and a lot of the people posting their processes have been super informative. I have most of the components, material, tools and a lot of information about the process thanks to everyone here in the forum. However, there has been a few things I haven´t found, probably lost in the 453 pages. I hope you guys can help me.

1.- I´ve found just a few posts about 711 couplers, I saw a few of you bought from a Chinese manufacturer. Can I ask, How much did you pay approximately? and in regards of the same topic, in your experience, how consistent is the result of the sound by being consistent on the process (using always the same components, same tube length, dampers)? this is because I will build one pair for me and if I get a good result, Can I duplicate the process and be sure all sound the same? 

2.- How do you guys join 2 or more BA driver in to 1 tube? I mean how does the 2 tubes coming from the 2 BA drivers turin in to 1?.

Thanks everyone, Greetings from Mexico!


----------



## Bad Username

Arturo Sallas said:


> Hello Forum.
> 
> This is my first post but I´ve been digging through this thread a lot to gather resources. I´m planning to start building IEM´s and a lot of the people posting their processes have been super informative. I have most of the components, material, tools and a lot of information about the process thanks to everyone here in the forum. However, there has been a few things I haven´t found, probably lost in the 453 pages. I hope you guys can help me.
> 
> ...



HI!

The couplers with preamp are between 400 to 1000 USD each. Depending on whether you buy it individually or with a system. It is totally unnecessary for hobby/diy use.

To combine drivers into one tube. The most common method is to use a thicker 2.5mm ID tubing and stretch is gently to fit over both driver nozzles.


----------



## tomekk

ForceMajeure said:


> What machine did you order?



I ordered to test 1.5W laser. There is a good chance that it will engrave acrylic. At least the costs are not big, and I will get a little bit of experience with engraving. 



Arturo Sallas said:


> I´ve found just a few posts about 711 couplers,



1.I recommend it is great DIY equipment. I also built it up in a professional enclosure and high quality cabling. I use Startech ICUSBAUDIO2D with FuzzMeasure on Mac. On a PC you have ARTA.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/fos...d-measurements.618659/#user_DIYMeasurementKit

http://www.johncon.com/john/wm61a/
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/sys_test.htm#Mic

2. You can also search in google for "veritas coupler". I am sorry I cannot link because of the forum rules.


Welcome to the community!


----------



## Firedrops (Sep 4, 2017)

Arturo Sallas said:


> Hello Forum.
> 
> 2.- How do you guys join 2 or more BA driver in to 1 tube? I mean how does the 2 tubes coming from the 2 BA drivers turin in to 1?.
> 
> Thanks everyone, Greetings from Mexico!



Most pros do the tube stretching, probably the best but imo a bit finicky, especially when everyone seems to sell tubes from different suppliers that you have to mix'n'match to properly fit. Personally (not a pro) I use heatshrink as an adapter. A little smidge of adhesive helps. Sometimes I add another layer of heatshrink that wraps the drivers entirely, or up to the vents for vented units, for added peace of mind.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

I'm not a pro either but I take a pair of tweezers and push the tubing onto it, carefully heat it with either a heat gun or lighter until its soft and carefully open the tweezers up to gently stretch the tubing. This works very effective and only takes a few seconds. 

@tomekk I tried a 1000mw laser before getting the 40w laser and it did etch the acrylic, it was just really poor quality and could not handle what I was trying to accomplish. It's worth investing the $300 into the 40w laser as everything on it is upgradable. 

I posted about my experience with it back sometime in July of 2016.


----------



## tomekk (Sep 5, 2017)

I found your machine. I also checked your posts. Great work and photos! These engravers from the 1W machine didn't  look bad.  I will think of something more pro pro if I can practice.

https://www.headfonia.com/q-n-a-saturday-jh-audio/

Interview with Jerry Harvey about Triple Fi, EU5EB (LOL I think I have contact with someone who still have them in a drawer), and a few words about us.


----------



## Arturo Sallas

Shilohsjustice said:


> I'm not a pro either but I take a pair of tweezers and push the tubing onto it, carefully heat it with either a heat gun or lighter until its soft and carefully open the tweezers up to gently stretch the tubing. This works very effective and only takes a few seconds.



"I´m not a pro either" C´mon! I´ve seen what you do and it´s really impressive. Actually I´ll take the process you described long ago to start my tests. I´m waiting for Egger resin to arrive this week, and that´s all I´m missing. I´ll keep you guys posted.



Bad Username said:


> HI!
> 
> The couplers with preamp are between 400 to 1000 USD each. Depending on whether you buy it individually or with a system. It is totally unnecessary for hobby/diy use.



Thanks! in that case, for now I´ll skip the strict measurement part. I have a measurement microphone (Beyer Dynamic MM1) and I´ll try to figure out the way to build something similar to the VERITAS to fit in to mine at least to get some readings.

This is just an experiment for now but hopefully I´ll be able to release some designs to the market thanks to all you guys!

Cheers!


----------



## napka

Arturo Sallas said:


> I´ve found just a few posts about 711 couplers, I saw a few of you bought from a Chinese manufacturer



I've ordered ~$75 one from taobao 3 months ago. Waited for a month, got no reply, refunded.


----------



## tomekk

Ok guys,  this font and technique needs to be refined. It took me 5 hours. 

however ...


Spoiler


----------



## Shilohsjustice

@tomekk Looking good, exactly what I did. I have all my peramiters saved so I just load the profile when I what to do a serial number. I also marked with a marker on my 40w laser control panel with what intensity renders the best results with the acrylic!!!


----------



## Arturo Sallas

So I went out and bought some thermofit to use it as an adapter for my Beyerdynamic MM1 and this is the result. 

 

The orange IEM´s attached are my brother´s, he´s a musicians and he got them 2 years ago from Advanced Ears.

I started measuring the SE425 and this is what I got. Left and Right on different colors.


Pretty good right?  Frequency and Phase response seem to be the same. Now the Advanced Ears.

 
Frequency response is very close and I could blame the homemade adapter I just did, but look at the phase response. It´s 180 degrees off. The IEM´s have the 2 prong connector so I just flipped it and..

VOILA! the phase matches in both IEM´s. My brother told me since nobody had ever told him that, and also since they are custom, he thought that´s the way they should sound.

Let me know what you think.


----------



## sanekn

I found out using a qtip worked better for me to apply the fotoplast lacquer. Also the layer is thinner which is good as I use it just for the finish and not for the thickness...


----------



## ForceMajeure (Sep 6, 2017)

tomekk said:


> Ok guys,  this font and technique needs to be refined. It took me 5 hours.
> 
> however ...
> 
> ...


Can you provide a link to the laser machine you used? also could you please talk about the technique you used? Great work!



Arturo Sallas said:


> So I went out and bought some thermofit to use it as an adapter for my Beyerdynamic MM1 and this is the result.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looks good so far. even the seal doesn't look bad. incase you need better seal you could use the mighty blue tak of course.



sanekn said:


> I found out using a qtip worked better for me to apply the fotoplast lacquer. Also the layer is thinner which is good as I use it just for the finish and not for the thickness...


If it works for you then good.
I personally found no better way of using the lacquer than using the correct amount on a brush and do one pass with one side of the brush and another pass next to it, with the other side of the brush, slightly over lapping on the edge of the previous pass. then dip again and so on... this way I had the best results, like pros. Basically using the brush only 2 times, one time for each side before dipping again. 
Sometimes you can get away with 3/4 passes without re dipping but it's not recommended to do it all the time. 

I paint the whole IEM before curing. if you do it in stages you'll have small seams. In case I am not satisfied I sand down with 800 or 1200 or even 2000 grit and do it over.

No way around it, there is a need to use enough lacquer with every dip. if not it will not look good. better buff the iem than using not enough amount of lacquer.
If you plan on correcting an area you need to make sure the brush was dipped and then do it over. Make sure you rotate the iem before curing so it spread evenly. The lacquer in itself is self leveling so it needs a minute or two to spread correctly.

Also to really see the if the lacquer is applied nicely and evenly before curing you need daylight and a big amount of it. it's very difficult to see if it's even everywhere. The final IEM result will only look as good as the last layer of lacquer you used IMO. Even if the iem is bubble free, an uneven lacquer layer will make it look less impressive.

I personally feel that lacquering is one of the most challenging skill to acquire making a CIEM. it's not as easy as just brush it down and cure. It requires experience and unfortunately the lacquer is very expensive to do tests and because it's a flammable it's more difficult to acquire for many without spending muchos extra dinaros for shipping.


----------



## Firedrops

Firedrops said:


> I actually made a ghetto DIY with the RAB 32257 recently. The goal was to just make something that was tiny and can be worn comfortably to sleep, but it turned out to have surprisingly good sound quality (decent bass, mids, detail, and soundstage that I didn't expect from a 1BA setup). No dampers or electrical crossovers of any sort was used, it was just wired direct and tucked under 2 layers of heatshrink and glued into repurposed metal bores. As with most BAs, you really want to ensure a perfect seal. Also, rumours have it the Etymotic ER4XR also uses the RABs with a green damper. It's probably the best and simplest single BA solution if you can't fit a pre-made dual (GU/GV) or a triple (GK).








FR from those RABs with no RC/dampers of any sort, from Dayton IMM06 and Crinacle's periodic white noise file. Looks a lot smoother than I expected, although it does nothing after 10k D:


----------



## tomekk

It all depends on the tube thickness, length too. I know that a shorter tube is a better high freq exposure, but if you compare your design (it's cool!) with Ety XR - all series have sound bore. 



Firedrops said:


> it does nothing after 10k D:



In my opinion after 10k the curve looks consistent with RAB 32257 freq response.


----------



## tomekk

tomekk said:


> I have a complex question. I have noticed in some projects (more than 6 drivers) additional driver with elongated tube (20-30mm). Is this driver included in the kit to improve the scene? It is full-range tuned? _(In my opinion they are behind the high pass filter)_. How to reconcile phases in this configuration? For example, I recognized SWFK.



QUOTE="MuZo2, post: 13678553, member: 274175"]
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




[/QUOTE]



Bad Username said:


> The long tubing is an attempt to correct phase shift caused by a high pass filter.




After two weeks and a large dose of LIMP, several dozen pieces of the tubing, resistors, capacitors and a few nights with a cup of coffee, I caught what it was all about. I am not a specialist, but now I can measure phase and try to improve for better results.



Thank You @MuZo2 and @Bad Username!


----------



## ForceMajeure (Sep 12, 2017)

tomekk said:


> QUOTE="MuZo2, post: 13678553, member: 274175"]






After two weeks and a large dose of LIMP, several dozen pieces of the tubing, resistors, capacitors and a few nights with a cup of coffee, I caught what it was all about. I am not a specialist, but now I can measure phase and try to improve for better results.



Thank You @MuZo2 and @Bad Username![/QUOTE]


check this post from 2 years ago.

also the final judgment is what you ear.


----------



## bartzky

tomekk said:


> After two weeks and a large dose of LIMP, several dozen pieces of the tubing, resistors, capacitors and a few nights with a cup of coffee, I caught what it was all about. I am not a specialist, but now I can measure phase and try to improve for better results


As you were mentioning LIMP I fear you are measuring the electrical phase but not the acoustical phase. What you will need to know for a Freqphase-like setup is the acoustical phase.


----------



## ziixtreme (Sep 13, 2017)

discus123 said:


> Photo from other forum IEM MH334 ! Any ideas about the value of the resistor and the capacitor ? Thanks ....


684V is 0.68uF
Resistor is 5.1Ohms


----------



## Firedrops (Sep 15, 2017)

Just made some measurements of a bunch of dynamic drivers from Taobao, these were chosen quite randomly (mostly by their marketing material and/or user feedback), might be of help to anyone else interested in incorporating dynamics in their projects. Not really my point to endorse any specific shops, so I just put their images on top. There's also 2 "biological" polymer drivers, not enough to conclusively say that they're different from traditional materials.

Notes: Measurements with Dayton IMM6, FFT Plot on iPhone 6s. "Coupler" was a repurposed pen rubber grip, insertion depth 12±2 mm. No nozzle or case was used, seal was ensured by blutak. A periodic white noise file was used (Check Crinacle's thread), and no burn-in was done. Realised at the end that I accidentally switched measuring modes (Graph to Simple, Average to Infinite) halfway through, so do take note of those differences. I try to get the average volume to 0db, but the drivers vary widely in sensitivity, as much as 3 volume notches on iphone 6s. No subjective comments yet, have not tried them in ears.

Most are 9/9.2mms, with a 8mm random gift and 2 10mms at the end. I'll note any exceptions.



Spoiler: Measurements (Warning: Picture heavy)







The following exhibits very weird bass region. I noticed this early and re-tested/sealed multiple times, even checking other drivers and coming back to this, but it always ends up like this, so it might be just a driver quirk or some other very odd and specific interaction with my setup.




*Following is advertised as a "Biological" polymer*




*Following is a 8mm! Random gift from one of the sellers.*




*Following measurements are Average "Infinite" and Graph "Simple"!*
*Following is advertised as a "Biological" polymer*


 


*Last 2 are 10mms.*


----------



## Tulku1967

JH Audio Layla DIY Custom reshell

My plans:

- Make CIEM from universal
- Replacing JH Audio 4 pin connector for 2 pin connectors
- Bass potentiometer in the shell
- Addition to Apex Module

Plans have succeeded. The sound stage is wider, the music does not bother. M15 is no longer a natural bass, but M20 is perfect.

The JH Audio  iems building quality is horrible!

On left side,  in crossower the 3 pieses 150 uH inductors had a resistance of 14.5 ohms and 7.5 ohms on the right. Therefore, left inductor amount (3 inductors in series) was 43.5 ohms and the right was 22.5 ohms. This was the case with the mid crossower.
Therefore, the sound was completely semi-sided

Layla crossover structure:

Low (double Sonion 3800) 100 ohm potentiometer (Tocos)
Mid (double Sonion 2800) 2x150 uH inductor in series and  1.5 uF cap parallel (2nd low pass)
High (TWFK + WBFK?) 3x 150 uH and 1x 100 uH in parallel, 10uF and 6.8uF cap in series (4th high pass),

Freqphase:
Low 3 cm tube
Mid 3.5 cm tube
High: 6 cm tube
All together with 1 cm steel tubing.
 
After war...


----------



## ForceMajeure

Could you elaborate more on how you've implemented the modules at the nozzle level?

I am also able to see on the JH shells the carbon fiber fabric. You must have battled quite hard to dismantle the components from the glue and resin.


----------



## discus123

Tulku1967 said:


> JH Audio Layla DIY Custom reshell
> 
> My plans:
> 
> ...



How  about the damper  ?  What color for the Low, Mid and High ??  Thanks !!


----------



## Tulku1967

discus123 said:


> How  about the damper  ?  What color for the Low, Mid and High ??  Thanks !!



Low and mid has a green damper
High does not have a damper

It was the same in Angie...


----------



## tomekk (Sep 18, 2017)

In the picture it looks like 1500 and 4700ohm.



Spoiler: Spoiler


----------



## ForceMajeure

tomekk said:


> In the picture it looks like 1500 and 4700ohm.
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Spoiler


yes you are right afaik for the bass they use yellow


----------



## Tulku1967

It's not yellow, this is green daper. I think the photo color is wrong.
But in the double Sonion 3800 (right in the opening) there was a brown damper stuffing.
I have a picture of the mid-damper ... it's just as colorful as a low damper.


----------



## Tulku1967

ForceMajeure said:


> Could you elaborate more on how you've implemented the modules at the nozzle level?
> 
> I am also able to see on the JH shells the carbon fiber fabric. You must have battled quite hard to dismantle the components from the glue and resin.


----------



## cyph3r

Tulku1967 said:


> JH Audio Layla DIY Custom reshell
> 
> My plans:
> 
> ...




Nice tear down! Are you sure there are inductors inside? What are the sound duct junctions made of?


----------



## Tulku1967

cyph3r said:


> Nice tear down! Are you sure there are inductors inside? What are the sound duct junctions made of?


Indeed there are inductors ... Harvey often uses 150 uH inductors (151, 151J) or a high 4th high pass filter with 100 uH inductors (101)

The reshell internal  photo is the first master case, here I replaced the inductor with the resistor (the middle 2nd low pass filter resistor in the shell, as a 50 ohm potentiometer.)
In the final shell, there are already some inductors.

Inductors:

Mid low pass filter

High pass filter


----------



## tomekk

Tech spec file TWFK-60232 - maybe someone owns it?


----------



## piotrus-g

tomekk said:


> Tech spec file TWFK-60232 - maybe someone owns it?


Trzymaj  https://www.head-fi.org/threads/home-made-iems.430688/page-349#post-12838163


----------



## tomekk

piotrus-g said:


> Trzymaj



Danke


----------



## Tulku1967

tomekk said:


> Danke


_Polak, Polak, dwa bratanki ....._


----------



## tomekk

Haha, 
By the way - my test kit after last update. Startech USB Card, WM61A with DIY amplifier on Nichicon capacitors. Cables hmm....


----------



## UNOE

Has anyone tried this new dual driver yet?

GU-32829


----------



## tomekk (Sep 21, 2017)

It looks like a successor to the GQ, instead of the WBFK/ED set, a new WBFK with BK (which probably didn't sell ) was also used vented. It seems to GU have a lower impedance than GQ.


Edit: 

Two more things: Compared to the GQ, you can use two tube lengths of different lengths with different tuning, all you need to do is to separate and unsolder it. 

And, of course, it is always cheaper to buy a set than to assemble it separately.


----------



## UNOE

You think GU would be better than HE?  GU part number is one number off from GV.  So they must have came out same time.  I don't see anyone who has done any builds with GU yet.


----------



## tomekk

In my opinion we have two sets: HE - very good woofer and good tweeter. GU not the best woofer and best tweeter. I would choose HE from them. Newer doesn't always mean better. At a slightly higher price, I choose GK*.

* - Head-Fi recommendation


----------



## smsmasters

Do the inner sound tubes coming from each balanced armature have to be kink free?


----------



## ForceMajeure

smsmasters said:


> Do the inner sound tubes coming from each balanced armature have to be kink free?


I don't know what you mean exactly by "kink free" but as long as they are not obstructed or restricted inside it's ok.


----------



## smsmasters (Sep 23, 2017)

ForceMajeure said:


> I don't know what you mean exactly by "kink free" but as long as they are not obstructed or restricted inside it's ok.


Kink as in a very tight bend. I noticed the tubes for the high frequency driver in my custom IEMs has a very tight nearly 90 degree bend but it still sounds great.


----------



## ForceMajeure

smsmasters said:


> Kink as in a very tight bend. I noticed the tubes for the high frequency driver in my custom IEMs has a very tight nearly 90 degree bend but it still sounds great.


Best way would be to measure one with kink and the other one without. Usually even if the tubes are a bit squashed it doesn't affect the sound though there is a limit.


----------



## vinknight

Hi everyone, I just started making my own iem using a single ed 29689. The results were quite good. However one side is a lot softer.  I thought it could be my tubing was not sealed to the driver. After adjusting a few times the problem remains. Before I assume it's a faulty driver, any ideas on what other factors that could be causing this?


----------



## cyph3r

vinknight said:


> Hi everyone, I just started making my own iem using a single ed 29689. The results were quite good. However one side is a lot softer.  I thought it could be my tubing was not sealed to the driver. After adjusting a few times the problem remains. Before I assume it's a faulty driver, any ideas on what other factors that could be causing this?


Have you got any measurement data like frequency response graph? Your ears have no issues?


----------



## vinknight

cyph3r said:


> Have you got any measurement data like frequency response graph? Your ears have no issues?


I don't have a tool to measure them for now and my ears are fine. The difference in volume is quite drastic with me needing to up the volume a lot to "ear match".


----------



## cyph3r

First I would test the entire electrical connection from sound source to driver. 

Have you soldered both ED-29689 correctly (correct solder pads (not the middle one...), same polarity etc?). 
Have you followed knowles soldering instructions (see http://www.knowles.com/eng/content/download/2783/32742/version/6/file/TB-04.pdf) ?

Last but not least, when the suspected earpiece is mounted in the ear, I would try to manually (carefully) change its position and angles, depth etc. How is your earpiece built (soft / hard shell? Foamies? etc) could it be that your fit induces an obstruction between driver nozzle and ear canal?


----------



## vinknight

cyph3r said:


> First I would test the entire electrical connection from sound source to driver.
> 
> Have you soldered both ED-29689 correctly (correct solder pads (not the middle one...), same polarity etc?).
> Have you followed knowles soldering instructions (see http://www.knowles.com/eng/content/download/2783/32742/version/6/file/TB-04.pdf) ?
> ...



Managed to find out the cause of it. I'm using knock-off shure shells and there were some gaps between the nozzle and the acoustic tubing. Used some uhu glue(not the best option but the only thing available) to seal off it off. Now both sides sound identical to my ears. Cheers!


----------



## Tulku1967

Hi Masters!

My plan to do it of 10 armature CIEM as follows:
- 2xCI 22955 (4700 ohm damper) for low
- 4 mid armatures (green or red dampers)
- 4 high armatures (TWFK-SWFK or similar) (no damping)
-  with Apex hole

Freqphase tubing, steel tube ends. 4th high pass filter for high, 2nd low pass filter for mid and 100ohm potentiometer for low (2xCI)

*My question: What kind of mid armature do you recommend?* (2xED or 4xRAB?)

I just want to have closed armatures because I think Apex does not like the opened.

From Aliexpress  4 x CI 22955 $ 70, 2 TWFK and 2 SWFK $ 150 with free shipping. I have dampers, shell, tubes, caps, resistors, 2 pin female sockets and inner wires.
I do not do with inductors the crossowers, but with resitor (30,30 and 10 ohm potentiometers I will tune)


----------



## piotrus-g

Tulku1967 said:


> *My question: What kind of mid armature do you recommend?* (2xED or 4xRAB?)


2x DWFK?
But if your choice is ED vs RAB I would take ED.


----------



## tomekk

Tulku1967 said:


> I do not do with inductors the crossowers, but with resitor (30,30 and 10 ohm potentiometers I will tune)



Check this page: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/home-made-iems.430688/page-265

Make measurements before installation. Last week I was working on a 1*TWFK + 1*CI prototype and without a mid cut-out in CI I had a mess in mid and high tones all the time. 4700 damper itself wasn't enough.


----------



## Tulku1967

tomekk said:


> Check this page: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/home-made-iems.430688/page-265
> 
> Make measurements before installation. Last week I was working on a 1*TWFK + 1*CI prototype and without a mid cut-out in CI I had a mess in mid and high tones all the time. 4700 damper itself wasn't enough.



Piotr: Many thanks!! Maybee will ED-s...

Tomekk:
I'm going to fill a 1000-1500 ohm dampers screen directly in the CI slots (this is what Harvey does) ... I did this again in a UM Pro50 rebuild ...

I think CI is basically a mid-radiator


----------



## Tulku1967

What kind of armature can you find in the Warbler Prelude?

IEM with 1 armature ... does it exist to voice of a full sound spectrum?


----------



## Im1fan2nv

I see shells with metal tubes at the output ports. I've figured out that the small is for lows and the large is for hi's. Any feedback on how long these are? How about comparisons of with and without them? How do the effect the FR? Is it worth the extra effort?
Thanks


----------



## Tulku1967

Im1fan2nv said:


> I see shells with metal tubes at the output ports. I've figured out that the small is for lows and the large is for hi's. Any feedback on how long these are? How about comparisons of with and without them? How do the effect the FR? Is it worth the extra effort?
> Thanks


For JH Audio the length is 10-12 mm
I noticed that he was focusing on the sound.


----------



## cyph3r

I will be into a small 1 or two driver project soon and need your advice on which sound measurements (like frequency response) you consider most important for development?


----------



## Spinnerauto

Hi everyone. What temperature that you use for waxing ear impression?


----------



## Squirg

Spinnerauto said:


> Hi everyone. What temperature that you use for waxing ear impression?



It seems like it depends on the kind of wax you are using, but I have been having best results around 155-160F.  I just got some of the red Nice-Fit wax and I am experimenting with differnt temps.  But, so far I have had much better results with the pink dental base wax I got of Ebay.  https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_od...l+base+wax.TRS0&_nkw=dental+base+wax&_sacat=0


----------



## Firedrops

piotrus-g said:


> 2x DWFK?
> But if your choice is ED vs RAB I would take ED.



What about BK vs ED?


----------



## piotrus-g

Firedrops said:


> What about BK vs ED?


BK is very different driver. Cannot be used as straight ED replacement It has different peak placements and typically a roll-off after 7-8kHz


----------



## Firedrops

piotrus-g said:


> BK is very different driver. Cannot be used as straight ED replacement It has different peak placements and typically a roll-off after 7-8kHz



Is that a "good" natural roll-off if complemented with TWFK/SWFKs for highs?


----------



## piotrus-g

Firedrops said:


> Is that a "good" natural roll-off if complemented with TWFK/SWFKs for highs?


Don't know. Never tired combining BK with TWFK/SWFK.


----------



## Muhammad Aziz (Oct 2, 2017)

Hi guys, im totally newbie here. Little bit confused about choosing the best BA to pair together.
I have some reference like:

CI22955+TWFK30017
CI22955+ED29689
CI22955+ED29689+WBFK30095

Which one do you guys prefer? Or do you guys prefer to use dynamic rather than BA?
but i would like to use BA from Bellsing (倍声), considering it's hard to an expat to get the original Knowles in here (China). Thanks!!


----------



## cjxj

What you've asked is kind of like asking which one kind of ice cream everyone prefers.  So much depends on your purpose in building and what you will use them for.  If your purpose is to mainly save money, do yourself a favor and buy a nice set ready made. I'm far from an expert, but after 6 months of tinkering with these things, I've spent enough money to have bought about 3 sets of nice CIEM's from one of the custom manufacturers. However,  if your purpose is to learn and tinker, then I'd recommend you start with one of the well documented combos (in this thread) based on one of the first two options you listed.  I found that if you stick to the recipes, they will sound pleasing enough, and give you a good reference point for your next build.  Better yet, start with a pre-made GK or HE to make it easy. Although I'm making progress, I will say that most of my early recipe tweaking with various passive components and dampers did not make things better....;>) . Regarding the Belsing drivers, I've built a CI/ED set using the Belsing branded versions of the drivers and I was happy with the result. However, you mention that you're in China. From what I can see, you should have easy access to whatever drivers you want, including Knowles and Sonion. 



Muhammad Aziz said:


> Hi guys, im totally newbie here. Little bit confused about choosing the best BA to pair together.
> I have some reference like:
> 
> CI22955+TWFK30017
> ...


----------



## Muhammad Aziz

cjxj said:


> What you've asked is kind of like asking which one kind of ice cream everyone prefers.  So much depends on your purpose in building and what you will use them for.  If your purpose is to mainly save money, do yourself a favor and buy a nice set ready made. I'm far from an expert, but after 6 months of tinkering with these things, I've spent enough money to have bought about 3 sets of nice CIEM's from one of the custom manufacturers. However,  if your purpose is to learn and tinker, then I'd recommend you start with one of the well documented combos (in this thread) based on one of the first two options you listed.  I found that if you stick to the recipes, they will sound pleasing enough, and give you a good reference point for your next build.  Better yet, start with a pre-made GK or HE to make it easy. Although I'm making progress, I will say that most of my early recipe tweaking with various passive components and dampers did not make things better....;>) . Regarding the Belsing drivers, I've built a CI/ED set using the Belsing branded versions of the drivers and I was happy with the result. However, you mention that you're in China. From what I can see, you should have easy access to whatever drivers you want, including Knowles and Sonion.


Thanks for the advice! Need to keep learning here


----------



## sanekn

I confirm it's not for saving money at all ! I've spent a really big amount of money and remade my pair of iems like 6 times, killed a couple of GKs and spent so much on fotoplast and duplicating stuff which i'm almost out. Managed to make a pair for some friends but sold for material price only.

BTW chek this out, still nothing perfect but yeah


----------



## Squirg

sanekn said:


> I confirm it's not for saving money at all ! I've spent a really big amount of money and remade my pair of iems like 6 times, killed a couple of GKs and spent so much on fotoplast and duplicating stuff which i'm almost out. Managed to make a pair for some friends but sold for material price only.
> 
> BTW chek this out, still nothing perfect but yeah



Looks good!  I like the faceplates.  What material did you use/how did you go about printing the logo?


----------



## Squirg

Firedrops said:


> Is that a "good" natural roll-off if complemented with TWFK/SWFKs for highs?


For me, BK didn't play well with TWFK, but paired with WBFK (and CI for lows) like in 64's V3, it works as a good mid.


----------



## Fox2twenty

This is amazing. I was just given the link to this thread.... So you guys really home brew ciems??


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Fox2twenty said:


> This is amazing. I was just given the link to this thread.... So you guys really home brew ciems??



We home brew PRO grade CIEM's!!!!


----------



## Genio Croto

Shilohsjustice said:


> We home brew PRO grade CIEM's!!!!


all stand up please ... that's a great job! applause ... many applause


----------



## Fox2twenty

Shilohsjustice said:


> We home brew PRO grade CIEM's!!!!


That is amazing. Do you have a build thread? True awesomeness, Bravo.


----------



## tomekk

Home brew CIEM's with DIY cables. It couldn't be better.


----------



## Fox2twenty

tomekk said:


> Home brew CIEM's with DIY cables. It couldn't be better.


Woah cool


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Can't forget the cables, lol....... this is my home forum, so no other build forum except reddit occasionally which consists of many of us from here.


----------



## Firedrops

Shilohsjustice said:


> Can't forget the cables, lol....... this is my home forum, so no other build forum except reddit occasionally which consists of many of us from here.


Wow, are those custom molded MMCX connectors? I've never seen them before


----------



## Im1fan2nv

Shilohsjustice said:


> We home brew PRO grade CIEM's!!!!



There are others as well, but what this guy puts out is what most of us strive for. The quality of his work is a result of many many hours of practice. This quality is NOT easily obtained. I myself, am no where close. However, it is a fun and a bit pricey hobby.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Firedrops said:


> Wow, are those custom molded MMCX connectors? I've never seen them before



Yes, they are hand made connectors using red and blue Fotoplast.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Im1fan2nv said:


> There are others as well, but what this guy puts out is what most of us strive for. The quality of his work is a result of many many hours of practice. This quality is NOT easily obtained. I myself, am no where close. However, it is a fun and a bit pricey hobby.




And once you start, you can't stop. It becomes like an obsession. Before you know it you have a lab in your house with equipment of all sorts. It's hard not to pursue perfection because each Piece is meticulously crafted and when there is an imperfection you analyze every aspect to prevent the same mistake in the next build. After a while it become somewhat second nature and you can almost tell how they will turn out just by the hollow shells. It does take lots and lots and lots of time to develop certain quality techniques. If you go through the pages of this forum you will certainly overcome many obstacles, I have posted several tutorials on the very issues I had trouble overcoming with regards to creating top quality builds. For the last year or so I've been saying I was going to put together a google doc with all the tutorials I've done so they are centralized and easy to get to. I'm seeing more and more new names in the forum and seeing past topics resurface that have been buried within the pages some months ago and some years ago so maybe I'll work on the build tutorial sooner than later.


----------



## Fox2twenty

Shilohsjustice said:


> And once you start, you can't stop. It becomes like an obsession. Before you know it you have a lab in your house with equipment of all sorts. It's hard not to pursue perfection because each Piece is meticulously crafted and when there is an imperfection you analyze every aspect to prevent the same mistake in the next build. After a while it become somewhat second nature and you can almost tell how they will turn out just by the hollow shells. It does take lots and lots and lots of time to develop certain quality techniques. If you go through the pages of this forum you will certainly overcome many obstacles, I have posted several tutorials on the very issues I had trouble overcoming with regards to creating top quality builds. For the last year or so I've been saying I was going to put together a google doc with all the tutorials I've done so they are centralized and easy to get to. I'm seeing more and more new names in the forum and seeing past topics resurface that have been buried within the pages some months ago and some years ago so maybe I'll work on the build tutorial sooner than later.


Yay! In 4 the build tutorial!


----------



## bartzky (Oct 6, 2017)

Shilohsjustice said:


> For the last year or so I've been saying I was going to put together a google doc with all the tutorials I've done so they are centralized and easy to get to. I'm seeing more and more new names in the forum and seeing past topics resurface that have been buried within the pages some months ago and some years ago so maybe I'll work on the build tutorial sooner than later.


What may be a good starting point is putting some special keywords into post that contains tutorials or advices. When everyone will put let's say something like "#ShellBuildingTutorial" or "#CrossoverTutorial" in their particular posts they will be easily accessible through the search function.

A big Google doc would be even better of course


----------



## cyph3r

bartzky said:


> What may be a good starting point is putting some special keywords into post that contains tutorials or advices. When everyone will put let's say something like "#ShellBuildingTutorial" or "#CrossoverTutorial" in their particular posts they will be easily accessible through the search function.
> 
> A big Google doc would be even better of course



I tried to set up something like this a while ago and did not succeed. 

To succeed you need to define the objective and audience of such documents and you will need a team of committed people with good coordination and with a sufficient amount of expertise in many areas which commit time and knowledge to certain sections. It should also be clear about intellectual property for any avanced knowledge shared (particularly by members of trade) where applicable. 

As alternative, instead of a document, I would suggest to use a wiki or equivalent and split up the work. Its set up pretty easily if someone has access to a cheap host. 

One very welcome item would be a mailing list for group buys of certains components for building IEMs.


----------



## Xymordos

Squirg said:


> For me, BK didn't play well with TWFK, but paired with WBFK (and CI for lows) like in 64's V3, it works as a good mid.



I really like the BK as mids - nice thickness, sounds really smooth. However, no matter how I tune it, it seems to be very slightly veiled compared to the CI.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

I don't want to complicate it, just a document that has the tutorials past and future collected onto 1 document to share for those wanting to get started without the cumbersome process of going through each page like we did when we started out. I'm going to do a retro build also using uv nail polish to pay homage to where we started and for those who are not at a place like some of us who are now using industry standard products. Stay tuned for that. I ordered the uv nail polish but it won't be here for like 3-4 weeks.


----------



## Lucas Taboada

Shilohsjustice said:


> I don't want to complicate it, just a document that has the tutorials past and future collected onto 1 document to share for those wanting to get started without the cumbersome process of going through each page like we did when we started out. I'm going to do a retro build also using uv nail polish to pay homage to where we started and for those who are not at a place like some of us who are now using industry standard products. Stay tuned for that. I ordered the uv nail polish but it won't be here for like 3-4 weeks.



Really looking forward to this, it will help us alot for sure!


----------



## sanekn

Squirg said:


> Looks good!  I like the faceplates.  What material did you use/how did you go about printing the logo?



Hello and thank you!  i used some ebony wood then sanded it flat then applied custom decals i ordered from guys on internet here and then applied the dreve lacquer. But the lacquer do not work well with the white resin on the decal. This white stuff just peels away  easily. But yeah for now this is the only method that worked for me!



Shilohsjustice said:


> We home brew PRO grade CIEM's!!!!


And then this guy comes in and blinds everyone with his awesome skills  wow man I wish I managed to have this quality shells, it's something! Really nice job!


----------



## J-breezy

Have any of you guys experimented with make silicone shells? I've read some pros and cons. Lots of people like the comfort but wasn't sure if any of you had successfully made any? 
Thanks!


----------



## briancortez2112 (Oct 6, 2017)

All of the hard work you guys put in will pay off!!
Some recent ones I have done.


----------



## aussietanker

briancortez2112 said:


> All of the hard work you guys put in will pay off!!
> Some recent ones I have done.



Awesome! They look absolutely fantastic ... 

Can I ask ...

1) how many "goes" have you had at getting to this standard of manufacture ...

ii) can you give us an idea of what drive units and caps etc are inside ...

iii) are you happy with the sound signature and is there anything that you would change 

iv) How did you do the decals? what are they made out of?


----------



## Arturo Sallas

Hello Guys I´m here again.

I managed to do the Gelatin+glycerine negatives as described by Shilohsjustice. They have good consistency and it can be melted again to try again, in case the first try wasn´t successful. I´ve also been playing with the drivers I ordered to see how they would combine in frequency and phase, I think I got the right combination of tube lengths and polarity. 

About the tubes, I went to a medical supply store and found FEEDING TUBE gauge 8FR (15 in long used for adult) and gauge 5 (35 in long used for infant). The gauge 5 fits perfect in the dirvers port and it fits inside the gauge 8 tube. The dampers fit a little tight in the gauge 8 tube, but if you stretch it out a little, they will fit with a little struggle. Each tube was about 50 cents of a dollar (8 Mexican Pesos).



I just got the EGGER UV resin last week after a loooooong international shipping time but I haven´t bought the UV nail lamp because I´m not sure what wavelenght is necessary to cure the EGGER UV. Does any of you have information if it has to be a specific wavelenght? or it can be any uv light and the only thing to look for is the curing time?

Thanks everyone!


----------



## Squirg

Nice score on the tubing!  The wavelength suggested by egger and dreve is 365 but up to 400 seems to work. Good luck!


----------



## Squirg

Does anyone find themselves constantly viewing the world around you with this thought in your head?... "can I use this as a faceplate?"


----------



## Fox2twenty

This thread is amazing.. But I'm kinda overwhelmed. ￼￼ 
Just keep posting and I'll keep learning...


----------



## Lucas Taboada

Squirg said:


> Nice score on the tubing!  The wavelength suggested by egger and dreve is 365 but up to 400 seems to work. Good luck!



So a 36w (4x9w) uv light box for nail would work? like this one:
https://http2.mlstatic.com/D_Q_NP_640902-MLB25969183444_092017-Q.jpg


----------



## kleymenov

Arturo Sallas said:


> Hello Guys I´m here again.
> 
> I managed to do the Gelatin+glycerine negatives as described by Shilohsjustice. They have good consistency and it can be melted again to try again, in case the first try wasn´t successful. I´ve also been playing with the drivers I ordered to see how they would combine in frequency and phase, I think I got the right combination of tube lengths and polarity.
> 
> ...



I have made my own Egger EL1 unit
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




and use following instruction to work with EGGER LP/H (transparent):


*Fill the LP/H or LP/HS material into the negative mold made of duplicating 
material (REF 40900 ff). Make sure that the negative mold is completely 
filled and bubble free. *
*Cover it with black foil (REF 53200 or REF 53100). *
*Put the filled negative mold into the UV-polymerization unit and let it 
polymerize according to the following polymerization times. Gas ow is not required if you work with the UV-polymerization unit EL 1 plus N2. *
*LP/H and LP/HS transparent and pink-transparent *

*EL1:   2 min. 30 sec. to 3 min. *

*ATTENTION: The mentioned polymerization times are guide values, they may vary depending on the s *

*Remove the black foil after polymerization. *
*Pour the liquid material into a container that is impervious to light. 
This material can be reused. *
*After having completely poured out the liquid material, put the negative 
mold and the blank but without the black foil into the UV-polymerization unit again. We recommend placing ITE shells in the unit with the opening facing downward. Gas ow is not required if you work with the UV-polymerization unit EL 1 plus N2. *
*LP/H and LP/HS transparent and pink-transparent *

*EL1: 1 min. to 2 min. *


*Take the blank out of the negative mold and put it into a transparent container (REF 50107) lled with LP-Cleaner (REF 31300 ff). Then put it into a UV-polymerization unit for the second polymerization. *
*EL1: *    5 min. to 6 min.


----------



## Andrumgt

The timings are not correct.
I use a EL2 and the timimng are much lower than what they say in the manual.


----------



## Lucas Taboada

Anyone know if a dental silicone (AB Putty, 62 shore) like this: https://www.suryadental.com.br/medi...eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/1/6/168328000.jpg) would work as a impression material? I'm not making impressions on my own, I'm trying to duplicate them so I can practice trimming, sanding etc... without ruining my original one. The Dreve Otoform its quite pricey here and the package comes with too much material for me, so its not an option for now.


----------



## tomekk

Lucas Taboada said:


> dental silicone would work as a impression material?



 I used a similar one at the beginning but... 

Right, absolutely not suitable for material for ear impression! First of all, it is 2-3 times harder and secondly, it does not have a slippery layer that helps to keep the ear safe. Thirdly, it has a very short time to mix and put into the syringe. Half less than Otoform.  

A standard hydrocolloid material would be too soft to withstand hard dental material tensioning, you would need to use gelatine in a strong concentration, but Dental does not have the effect of Otoform padding that is preactually liquid at the exit from the syringe. There is probably a large deformation of the base form.

The last thing I remember. Dental has a completely different consistency - it's like clay and its processing so you don't exp like with Otoform, because the dremel cuts it differently. 

What's different about practicing on duplicated impressions of Otoform, previously pre-cut. I think it's worthy of attention to exp.


----------



## kleymenov

Andrumgt said:


> The timings are not correct.
> I use a EL2 and the timimng are much lower than what they say in the manual.



The time is correct for EL1 and it is only for transparent/pink material only, another color has different polymerization time, this time I see in EGGER manual: 
http://egger-labor.de/enplace/1101/pdf/en/30400a.pdf


----------



## aussietanker

kleymenov said:


> I have made my own Egger EL1 unit


Do you mean that you made the UV curing unit that we see in the picture? if so, that's awesome! 

Can you give some basic instructions as to how you made it and how much that cost?

Well done!


----------



## Andrumgt

kleymenov said:


> The time is correct for EL1 and it is only for transparent/pink material only, another color has different polymerization time, this time I see in EGGER manual:
> http://egger-labor.de/enplace/1101/pdf/en/30400a.pdf


For real?i.d like to see a pic with a shell that.s been sitting for 2.30 to 3 min nder UV.
My egger EL2 has half the power of an EL1 and at 45 secs is more than enough.


----------



## kleymenov

Andrumgt said:


> For real?i.d like to see a pic with a shell that.s been sitting for 2.30 to 3 min nder UV.
> My egger EL2 has half the power of an EL1 and at 45 secs is more than enough.



This normal shell:
 

And this, if it is about 2 minutes:


----------



## kleymenov

Andrumgt, You use EGGER LP/H transparent?


----------



## Andrumgt (Oct 10, 2017)

kleymenov said:


> Andrumgt, You use EGGER LP/H transparent?


Yes, I do use lp h clear.
This is my diy el2 and the exposure times from the manual that egger provided are not good.The ET are much smaller in reality.


----------



## kleymenov

Andrumgt said:


> Yes, I do use lp h clear.
> This is my diy el2 and the exposure times from the manual that egger provided are not good.The ET are much smaller in reality.


I can only assume that you have a different concentration of light, when I did this unit i tried to make the size as the original. By the way, I did not use blue lights at all and work only with transparent EGGER.....


----------



## Andrumgt

kleymenov said:


> I can only assume that you have a different concentration of light, when I did this unit i tried to make the size as the original. By the way, I did not use blue lights at all and work only with transparent EGGER.....


I also did the exact same dimensions like the original, also used identical light bulbs, including the blue one, also using only clear. 
Have fun!


----------



## ForceMajeure (Oct 10, 2017)

There is a difference in quality of the bulbs btw.
 Also UV bulbs loose UV energy outpout along the way. Although they will work and emit light they will not have the same curing capabilities as when new.

Of course there are other factors that could explain the variance in curing times.

The fact that both of you build one is super cool IMO.
Kudos to both of you.


----------



## Andrumgt

I used the specified osram bulbs, brand new and original.I did not make any rabat on the quality as i expected the final quality to match it.


----------



## aussietanker (Oct 10, 2017)

A question for the guys that have either the Egger or the Dreve  or any other of the professional curing chambers. Do they have a platform that rotates or is the base just a flat non moving part. And has the difference in the end result been significantly different when using the Egger or Dreve uv curing units as compared to the shells produced when using the uv nail curing light things?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

aussietanker said:


> A question for the guys that have either the Egger or the Dreve  or any other of the professional curing chambers. Do they have a platform that rotates or is the base just a flat non moving part. And has the difference in the end result been significantly different when using the Egger or Dreve uv curing units as compared to the shells produced when using the uv nail curing light things?




I have a professional unit, it does NOT have a rotating platform. It has a raised platform that a glass square bowl sits on.


----------



## Shilohsjustice




----------



## Shilohsjustice

With practice you can achieve comparable results with the UV nail light. The biggest difference is the quality of bulb that ships with the cheap uv nail light. The units that power the professional lights have built in ballasts to power the lights, the nail uv lights do not have the same mechanism so the bulbs have the mechanism to power the bulb.


----------



## aussietanker

Shilohsjustice said:


> I have a professional unit, it does NOT have a rotating platform. It has a raised platform that a glass square bowl sits on.



Thank you for the response and the pic!

> What brand unit do you have?  It looks like there are 3 tubes in the lid, 3 tubes in the base and one small skinny tube on the rear side (that white thing just below the hinge) Is that correct?  Are there any other tubes positioned anywhere on the unit?

> I believe that you can get the tubes for about $15USD each. So it would be a min of $90USD just in tubes if you were to make your own.

> I think that the Dual-Lite UV Cure Unit  (from Oaktree products) is about $150USD ... and it's bigger brother the Mini Dual-Lite UV Curing Unit is about $250 USD... but I'm not 100% certain that it is suitable for our task or whether it's just for "spot repairs" of hearing aids. I would appreciate anyone's thoughts on it's suitability. 

> There is also a Chinese made uv cure chamber on AliExpress for about $350 USD. Any thoughts on those units?

Appreciate the advice


----------



## kleymenov

aussietanker said:


> A question for the guys that have either the Egger or the Dreve  or any other of the professional curing chambers. Do they have a platform that rotates or is the base just a flat non moving part. And has the difference in the end result been significantly different when using the Egger or Dreve uv curing units as compared to the shells produced when using the uv nail curing light things?


I don't have a platform that rotates


----------



## Shilohsjustice (Oct 10, 2017)

aussietanker said:


> Thank you for the response and the pic!
> 
> > What brand unit do you have?  It looks like there are 3 tubes in the lid, 3 tubes in the base and one small skinny tube on the rear side (that white thing just below the hinge) Is that correct?  Are there any other tubes positioned anywhere on the unit?
> 
> ...




My unit is a Dreve unit, it has 3 lights on the bottom, 3 lights in the lid, 4 lights surrounding (1 on each side) total lights is 10. I can control top middle and bottom lights separately as well as set the time. Typical time for perfect thickness transparent shells is 1min 30sec for Fotoplast for a medium size investment. Times vary based on color of shells and size of the investment. There is no miracle time as it just becomes something you know after a while. My ears are big thus require more material thus requiring longer cur time. My wife’s ears are small thus requiring lest material this resulting in shorter cure time.

There definitely is a science to it, but it comes down to technique you’ve become instinctual to.

I have made just as good shells that you would not be able to tell between whether they were in my chamber or under a uv nail light. 365nm-395nm is 365nm-395nm regardless of the source.

I think controlled elements are key to perfect shells every time. Meaning you can control how your impressions are trimmed, take the extra care to get them as smooth and shaped as possible, do the extra steps, dip the impressions in wax to get a perfectly smooth surface, spend the time to master the investment making whether its with ballistic gel, gelatin, krystaloid, or sillicone. If you do all of those steps and master each one your shells will come out perfect every time. Those are the controlled elements.


----------



## Fox2twenty

Shilohsjustice said:


> My unit is a Dreve unit, it has 3 lights on the bottom, 3 lights in the lid, 4 lights surrounding (1 on each side) total lights is 10. I can control top middle and bottom lights separately as well as set the time. Typical time for perfect thickness transparent shells is 1min 30sec for Fotoplast for a medium size investment. Times vary based on color of shells and size of the investment. There is no miracle time as it just becomes something you know after a while. My ears are big thus require more material thus requiring longer cur time. My wife’s ears are small thus requiring lest material this resulting in shorter cure time.
> 
> There definitely is a science to it, but it comes down to technique you’ve become instinctual to.
> 
> ...


Where do I learn to dip impressions in wax etc? I don't  suppose you have made a YouTube video....


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Fox2twenty said:


> Where do I learn to dip impressions in wax etc? I don't  suppose you have made a YouTube video....



I made a tutorial on here awhile ago with a YouTube video of my technique for dipping.


----------



## SVTong

The Wax dipping video is on page 315.  Shiloh has a lot of good tutorials starting on about page 312 or so.


----------



## Fox2twenty

SVTong said:


> The Wax dipping video is on page 315.  Shiloh has a lot of good tutorials starting on about page 312 or so.


Awesome, that's for the citations!


----------



## Squirg

Just finished up a few woodies with quad guts....


----------



## Fox2twenty

Squirg said:


> Just finished up a few woodies with quad guts....


Pics or it didn't happen.


----------



## Squirg

Squirg said:


> Just finished up a few woodies with quad guts....


----------



## Squirg

Squirg said:


>


----------



## Squirg

Sorry, still getting used to this format...and brain...


----------



## Squirg

Squirg said:


> Sorry, still getting used to this format...and brain...



Okay...what the hell am I doing wrong?  I upload multiple pics and hit post and they don't attach!


----------



## Squirg




----------



## Squirg




----------



## Fox2twenty

Squirg said:


>


That's beautiful man


----------



## Fox2twenty

Fox2twenty said:


> That's beautiful man


How did you learn to do this? Just practice?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

I finished up a second set of purple body clear tip customs last night. They are dual driver IEM’s.


----------



## aussietanker (Oct 11, 2017)

Shilohsjustice said:


> I finished up a second set of purple body clear tip customs last night. They are dual driver IEM’s.


Beautiful work. I absolutely love the clear tips.  Simply stunning


----------



## ForceMajeure

Fun fact. I have left mixed resin with dyes in those exact cups for 4 days and it started to dissolved the bottom of the cups. so if you guy plan to mix resins in those make sure it doesn't stay in there for too long


----------



## ForceMajeure

Squirg said:


>


how long does it take you to cure the black?
what curing system are you using?
Have you attached the wood plates with glue or the regular resin methods?
Do you lacquer directly on the wood?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

ForceMajeure said:


> Fun fact. I have left mixed resin with dyes in those exact cups for 4 days and it started to dissolved the bottom of the cups. so if you guy plan to mix resins in those make sure it doesn't stay in there for too long




What resin are you using, I have colors that have been mixed for weeks without anything dissolving. You must be using a heavy solvent based resin. I haven’t ever had an issue and I’ve been using those size cups for years now.


----------



## ForceMajeure (Oct 11, 2017)

Shilohsjustice said:


> What resin are you using, I have colors that have been mixed for weeks without anything dissolving. You must be using a heavy solvent based resin. I haven’t ever had an issue and I’ve been using those size cups for years now.


egger and dreve. might have been one of the dyes.
have you left the colored resin sit in the cup for more than 4 day?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

ForceMajeure said:


> egger and dreve. might have been one of the dyes.
> have you left the colored resin sit in the cup for more than 4 day?



Yes, I have a couple colors that have been mixed for a couple weeks. That is weird that yours was effected like that, I have had glue burn holes in cups. Sometimes I’ll flip the cup over and use the bottom for glue and I’ll use a toothpick to apply when attaching tubing.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

@ForceMajeure I have not had just the colorant in the cups, I usually add my Fotoplast and then add the resin to color as needed. Maybe that’s why mine hasn’t gone through, are you saying that the resin colorant by itself has burned through or is it mixed colors that are in your UV material?


----------



## ForceMajeure

The mixed fotoplast with colors did it. I also fill the cup first with fotoplast and add the dye with a toothpick as needed.
Maybe the type of cups I used might be "environmental friendly" kind or something similar, so it started to dissolve. My guess is that it might be one of the dyes that didn't mix completely and started to sink to the bottom.


----------



## Squirg

ForceMajeure said:


> how long does it take you to cure the black?
> what curing system are you using?
> Have you attached the wood plates with glue or the regular resin methods?
> Do you lacquer directly on the wood?



So, I have a dental curing unit that I swapped out the lights with these...  http://www.ebay.com/itm/4W-5W-E27-G...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

With black resin, it takes about 4 minutes.  

I attached the wood faceplates with Bondic.  This stuff is awesome.  FYI, I have a small hardware store down the street (True Value/ACE) that special orders it for me for $5 a tube.

These are not laquered.  I spent a lot of time on the bench lathe with these.  But, I ordered these...https://www.oaktreeproducts.com/buffing/muslin-buff-1-25-diameter-x-16-ply-3-pk-42181 which allow me to use the dremel to get into those hard to reach areas.  And this stuff...https://www.oaktreeproducts.com/buffing/cres-shine-earmold-polish-1-3-lb-bar-127a  is the best polish I have found for bringing out the shine.  Follow it up with this...https://www.oaktreeproducts.com/buffing/muslin-buff-6-x30ply-cmb6  and you will get that glossy look.

Hope that helps!


----------



## Squirg

Fox2twenty said:


> How did you learn to do this? Just practice?



A combination of practice, the right tools, and countless hours on this forum!  I can't express enough how much I appreciate everyone here.  Especially from the Pros who could easily keep their knowledge to themselves but go out of their way to teach us new guys.  It's truly inspiring!


----------



## Fox2twenty

Squirg said:


> A combination of practice, the right tools, and countless hours on this forum!  I can't express enough how much I appreciate everyone here.  Especially from the Pros who could easily keep their knowledge to themselves but go out of their way to teach us new guys.  It's truly inspiring!


Inspiring


----------



## aussietanker (Oct 12, 2017)

> A combination of practice, the right tools, and countless hours on this forum! I can't express enough how much I appreciate everyone here. Especially from the Pros who could easily keep their knowledge to themselves but go out of their way to teach us new guys. It's truly inspiring!



@*Squirg *


Sorry, i messed up the quote function. I was trying to quote Squirg's post 

Thanks so much. That is awesome information. 

I remember a discussion on here "earlier" (probably a mere 100+ pages back!  ) about whether the Egger or the Fotoplast shell material was the "clearest" and "most transparent". Was a consensus decision made on that?  Has anyone used both with exactly the same equipment and conditions and has an opinion on it?

Also, what are you guys using now to create colors. I realize that you can get Fotoplast in clear, red, blue (and i think black) but there have been some awesome creative colors shown on here and wondered what the preferred solution for coloring shells is at this point

Again, thanks for all the advice and help.


----------



## ForceMajeure

aussietanker said:


> @[SIZ v=4]*Squirg *
> [/SIZE]
> 
> Sorry, i messed up the quote function. I was trying to quote Squirg's post
> ...



I have talked about it a earlier in this thread. Again both are as clear as you can get. The differences are in the viscosity and curing.
Personally I prefer Egger. I also prefer getting it clear (I assume the vast majority here does too) and using dyes to color it as I want to.


----------



## ForceMajeure (Oct 12, 2017)

Squirg said:


> So, I have a dental curing unit that I swapped out the lights with these...  http://www.ebay.com/itm/4W-5W-E27-GU10-MR16-UV-LED-Ultraviolet-Spotlight-Lamp-Light-Mini-Bulb-AC85-265V/112135137137?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649
> 
> With black resin, it takes about 4 minutes.
> 
> ...



I think the bulbs you are using have an longer wavelength (405nm, though it doesn't say in the ebay link, but usually if you are able to see the purple hue it means it's a bit higher in the wavelength).
Which might help with curing materials that are harder to penetrate with shorter wavelength. Interesting.

Are you using plain black paint mixed with the resin or are you using dyes drops?

How many bulbs are you using simultaneously in your machine and what wattage per bulb 4w or 5w?

How long does it take you to cure clear shells with the same setup (what resin is used also)?


----------



## aussietanker

ForceMajeure said:


> I have talked about it a earlier in this thread. Again both are as clear as you can get. The differences are in the viscosity and curing.
> Personally I prefer Egger. I also prefer getting it clear (I assume the vast majority here does too) and using dyes to color it as I want to.



Thanks for the link.  That was in fact the conversation that I was trying to remember. 

So if most are predominantly using the clear material for their shells i presume that whatever dyes are being used to color the shell are being mixed in with the material used to make the shells BEFORE pouring the resin into the mold and curing the shells with uv ..and it is the more "decorative" and secondary  colors that are added to the shells after they are uv cured.  Am I understanding that correctly?

And finally, what are most people using to color the shells now?


----------



## ForceMajeure

aussietanker said:


> Thanks for the link.  That was in fact the conversation that I was trying to remember.
> 
> So if most are predominantly using the clear material for their shells i presume that whatever dyes are being used to color the shell are being mixed in with the material used to make the shells BEFORE pouring the resin into the mold and curing the shells with uv ..*and it is the more "decorative" and secondary  colors that are added to the shells after they are uv cured.*  Am I understanding that correctly?
> 
> And finally, what are most people using to color the shells now?


I don't understand this part.

usually the clear fotoplast is mixed with a bit of the color dyes until you get a uniform color then poured into the investment cup for curing.


----------



## aussietanker

ForceMajeure said:


> usually the clear fotoplast is mixed with a bit of the color dyes until you get a uniform color then poured into the investment cup for curing.



Ok..So you just mix the dye with the clear fotoplast until you get the color that you want and then you cure it with the uv light. That answered the first part of my question. 


So what dyes are used.  I haven't been able to find any mention of dyes on any of the websites that supply the Egger or the Dreve shell material


----------



## ForceMajeure

Most dyes for coloring resins work, oil paint or even acrylic paint also (can be used to have opaque colors). Every one has its preference. I know a few here use "castin craft" resin dyes https://shop.resinobsession.com/collections/colorants


----------



## ism1360

Hello
This is my first post..out of desperation(i'm more reader..shyness??

let's cut to the chase..

For me custom earphone is not fancy..i'm a slim build girl with small ear and even smaller ear canal..even can't use
those slim tiny ear cleaner unless with force them in canal hard)

For this reson i can't use any earbuds/earphone (literally)

I didn't know about custom iem until recently..
First i got exited...finaly...thanks god..
But it didn't last as soon as i saw prices and the fact that i'm nowhere near of those componey's..
So start searching for Diy ciem's...
The more i read the more confused i get..
So apparently it's not that simple..so i list my question's as small as possible

A-
I talked to a hearing aid mekare lab and asked them if they could make shell like they do for people who have problem with hearing and i showed them the
UE shells..they said yes and with very good price(acrylic or silicon about 100$ for 2 set)

The question is that i read somewhere in this forum that the acustic of hollow shell is important..but how? is there any guide on
this subject?are these shells any good for my use?

B-
In inside's stuff side..oh god..let's start with easiest one..

B-1
is ther any really good assembled-tuned configuration with very good price ..i mean for example any one knows or make UE flagship (Ultimate Ears Pro 18+) drivers and other stuff inside of those shells?

If not then..

B-2
Beside of the driver's what other things are needed?
I heard people saying stuff like resitor or cross overs etc...
For making a really good iem for music lover(im not pro musisian..just love musics) with sensetive ear
What kind of stuff(driver.cross over..resistor..) is needed?
Is there any simple but good map for this?

B-3
In one of the UE video's the guy who was explainig the process of making CIEM said somthing like this:
"we mesuring frequncy responce and tuning manually them"
Another confusing subject..
So if i buy driver i can't just stuffed them into the shell..
How can i do that?is ther a standard?how to tune?

B-4
Is it possible to buy a desent pair of IEM...open'em up and gut it out and put them inside of my custum shell without
needing to tune them or mesure them?

---------------************-------
1-sorry for bad english (if you have time correcting is always nice 
2-sorry for long list
3-any help would be greatly appreciated ...
Thank you


----------



## ForceMajeure (Oct 12, 2017)

_*First you should know that doing it yourself might not be the wisest decision because of the costs and the learning curve.

You asked many questions that cannot be answered to their full depth especially if you don't know about acoustics and electronics.
If you watched a few videos about the manufacturing process I guess you saw how many parts their is going from ear impressions to the final product.

If you want to have ciems there are a few options. Either pay the full price and buy from a manufacturer like UE/JHaudio/64audio etc etc...you'll need to get ear impressions done by an audiologist and send it to them. 
Or you could buy a used ciem online and send it to reshelling service f.e Inearz in the US. They'll require you to send them you ear impressions done by the audiologist also. They'll open the ciem use the internals and transfer it to the new shell (that they will make themselves) that will fit you...

Another option is go nuts and do it yourself.You'll also need to get ear impressions...highly not recommended because it will end costing you much more than buying a new pair and require many trial and errors to get first good results.
*
_
A-
I talked to a hearing aid mekare lab and asked them if they could make shell like they do for people who have problem with hearing and i showed them the
UE shells..they said yes and with very good price(acrylic or silicon about 100$ for 2 set)

The question is that i read somewhere in this forum that the acustic of hollow shell is important..but how? is there any guide on
this subject?are these shells any good for my use?
*
using dynamic drivers it has more importance, using regular balanced armature drivers attached to tubes not so much...*

B-
In inside's stuff side..oh god..let's start with easiest one..

B-1
is ther any really good assembled-tuned configuration with very good price ..i mean for example any one knows or make UE flagship (Ultimate Ears Pro 18+) drivers and other stuff inside of those shells?

If not then..

_*there are combo drivers made from knowles pretuned with rather good sound like GQ,GV,GK series*_


B-2
Beside of the driver's what other things are needed?
I heard people saying stuff like resitor or cross overs etc...
For making a really good iem for music lover(im not pro musisian..just love musics) with sensetive ear
What kind of stuff(driver.cross over..resistor..) is needed?
Is there any simple but good map for this?

_*there is no simple good map. there are known ways to tune things but they require a minimum of knowledge at least, every step affect the rest. even the size of the tubing and diameter, dampers used. crossovers wiring multiple drivers  etc..
Some drivers are good for bass range other for mids and other for treble. some are full range drivers. meaning they cover the all frequency range. 
*_
B-3
In one of the UE video's the guy who was explainig the process of making CIEM said somthing like this:
"we mesuring frequncy responce and tuning manually them"
Another confusing subject..
So if i buy driver i can't just stuffed them into the shell..
How can i do that?is ther a standard?how to tune?

_*the majority of drivers are not full range good sounding drivers, there are however a few that can be used as is and might just need a damper.
*_
*Regarding*_* "the measuring" it means that they measure every step of the process to make sure everything is sounding good and f.e tubes didn't detach from the drivers or wires got disconnected during assembly, left and right sound the same etc... so the end product matches the frequency response that was developed for that product*_

B-4
Is it possible to buy a desent pair of IEM...open'em up and gut it out and put them inside of my custum shell without
needing to tune them or mesure them?

*Yes, you could use a reshelling service*

---------------************-------
1-sorry for bad english (if you have time correcting is always nice 
2-sorry for long list
3-any help would be greatly appreciated ...

_*Again I have no way of evaluating your level of knowledge and how interested you are about doing it from zero or you were just looking for a good solution to get custom made iems. If you just want a pair of custom iem for cheaper than what they cost, then you should consider using a reshelling service. *_
*The majority of materials needed to make ciems yourself cost quite a bit and it adds up really fast. Drivers aren't cheap either...

Last but not least you said that you can't use qtips to clean your ears as they are too big for you to even pass the entry of your ear canal. if it's the case then it might be difficult to make a ciem for you. Not all ciem models might fit your ear even in a custom form. It all depends on you ear impressions and the evaluation of the manufacturer/resheller.*


----------



## alanwcruz

ism1360 said:


> Hello
> This is my first post..out of desperation(i'm more reader..shyness??
> 
> let's cut to the chase..
> ...



Hello there, been here reading for quite a while and now I'm able to build my own CIEM's. I started for exactly the same reason you comment, my ear canals are small and using regular ear buds caused pain. As has been mentioned, building your own takes quite a while and can get expensive real fast, it took me around a year to get a result i was happy with.

A while ago I made a pair for a friend of mine who had a peculiar ear shape, his ears are big but his canals are small, but the end result (according to him) was great.

It is posible, but not easy.

These are my friends: (can't really see the ear canal part but his canal was very wide and very thin, the thinest part was about 3mm)


 


These are mine: (my canals are more round shaped with small diameter)


----------



## Shilohsjustice

ism1360 said:


> Hello
> This is my first post..out of desperation(i'm more reader..shyness??
> 
> let's cut to the chase..
> ...




I’ll make them for you, cut out all the hassle. Just the cost of materials and shipping you would need to cover, and you would need to get impressions made and sent to me. Your a music lover so the savant Clone would be ideal and cost effective. I’ll even make tutorial of the entire build so it’s relevant to the forum. Everyone deserves a high quality set of iem’s.


----------



## Squirg

ForceMajeure said:


> I think the bulbs you are using have an longer wavelength (405nm, though it doesn't say in the ebay link, but usually if you are able to see the purple hue it means it's a bit higher in the wavelength).
> Which might help with curing materials that are harder to penetrate with shorter wavelength. Interesting.
> 
> Are you using plain black paint mixed with the resin or are you using dyes drops?
> ...



I have been using this stuff based on Shiloh's post a while back and been really pleased with it...  http://www.ebay.com/itm/Resin-Obses...hash=item5424dd2af0:m:mdcC3uNu5BQQxxlkDyY8p_A

The machine I am using has a rotating platform and uses 3 bulbs at 5w simultaneously.  It came with full spectrum bulbs and I am still searching for 

Clear shells are complete at 15 seconds with Egger.  Much more than that, the canals are solid.  Haven't used Dreve in a while.


----------



## ism1360 (Oct 12, 2017)

_First you should know that doing it yourself might not be the wisest decision because of the costs and the learning curve._

_You asked many questions that cannot be answered to their full depth especially if you don't know about acoustics and electronics.
If you watched a few videos about the manufacturing process I guess you saw how many parts their is going from ear impressions to the final product._

*Hello again...Thanks for your time
I know that now...but custom iem is my only option(i can't use headphones too..will get bad headache) and is so expensive  and being in school and not having job is worst part..so i keep hoping and searching and trying for a cure...*

_If you want to have ciems there are a few options. Either pay the full price and buy from a manufacturer like UE/JHaudio/64audio etc etc...you'll need to get ear impressions done by an audiologist and send it to them. 
Or you could buy a used ciem online and send it to reshelling service f.e Inearz in the US. They'll require you to send them you ear impressions done by the audiologist also. They'll open the ciem use the internals and transfer it to the new shell (that they will make themselves) that will fit you..._

_Another option is go nuts and do it yourself.You'll also need to get ear impressions...highly not recommended because it will end costing you much more than buying a new pair and require many trial and errors to get first good results._

*I'm not in the us or europe..and because of this it's more difficult and way more expensive for my to do this in normal way..just mailing cost me over 200$ ...
going nuts need money too*


_
there are combo drivers made from knowles pretuned with rather good sound like GQ,GV,GK series
_
_*are those combo's ready to use right out of the box or they need tuning too?
Are they any good?*_
_

there is no simple good map. there are known ways to tune things but they require a minimum of knowledge at least, every step affect the rest. even the size of the tubing and diameter, dampers used. crossovers wiring multiple drivers  etc..
Some drivers are good for bass range other for mids and other for treble. some are full range drivers. meaning they cover the all frequency range. 



the majority of drivers are not full range good sounding drivers, there are however a few that can be used as is and might just need a damper.
_
_Regarding "the measuring" it means that they measure every step of the process to make sure everything is sounding good and f.e tubes didn't detach from the drivers or wires got disconnected during assembly, left and right sound the same etc... so the end product matches the frequency response that was developed for that product_

_* I'm full of problems *_
*No knowlede...No money...No good ear..*
_
Yes, you could use a reshelling service
_
*So for instance i can  cut a sony earphone and put the inside stuff of it in a custom shell without any tuning or using any damper or anything elese..right?*
_

Again I have no way of evaluating your level of knowledge and how interested you are about doing it from zero or you were just looking for a good solution to get custom made iems. If you just want a pair of custom iem for cheaper than what they cost, then you should consider using a reshelling service. 
The majority of materials needed to make ciems yourself cost quite a bit and it adds up really fast. Drivers aren't cheap either...

Last but not least you said that you can't use qtips to clean your ears as they are too big for you to even pass the entry of your ear canal. if it's the case then it might be difficult to make a ciem for you. Not all ciem models might fit your ear even in a custom form. It all depends on you ear impressions and the evaluation of the manufacturer/resheller.
_
*Oh...i get nervous  worst part is i have very close eardrum too..so i can't put anything deep in my ear..*

*Once again thank you for your time and input..it mean so muchto me*


*


alanwcruz said:



			Hello there, been here reading for quite a while and now I'm able to build my own CIEM's. I started for exactly the same reason you comment, my ear canals are small and using regular ear buds caused pain. As has been mentioned, building your own takes quite a while and can get expensive real fast, it took me around a year to get a result i was happy with.

A while ago I made a pair for a friend of mine who had a peculiar ear shape, his ears are big but his canals are small, but the end result (according to him) was great.

It is posible, but not easy.

These are my friends: (can't really see the ear canal part but his canal was very wide and very thin, the thinest part was about 3mm)




These are mine: (my canals are more round shaped with small diameter)

  

Click to expand...

*



*Hello 
It's so nice to know that there are people like you are out there...(feeling guilty for not being sad about this crappy situation)*
*how you did it? 
Especially those electronic stuff...do you have any electronic knowledge?
Do you think hearing aid shells is suitable for this purpose?
Thank you




Shilohsjustice said:



			I’ll make them for you, cut out all the hassle. Just the cost of materials and shipping you would need to cover, and you would need to get impressions made and sent to me. Your a music lover so the savant Clone would be ideal and cost effective. I’ll even make tutorial of the entire build so it’s relevant to the forum. Everyone deserves a high quality set of iem’s.
		
Click to expand...



Hello dear..*
*It was the nicest thing i'v heard in a long time... 
Thank you so much for being sensitive to people situation ...this much freedom from selfishness and be able to even think about something like that require a damn good wife/husband/partner/life...good for you and your relatives/friends  ...get **emotional & jealous*


*unfortunately i have too many problem for now.. it's very expensive for mailing to us/europe for me right now..will cost around 200$- tow way -(tax is insane)

But I'm saving now and i think i can buy it in 3 month from now .... so if you considering discount (student discount?) instead of free , please let me know...i'm interested..because if i wanna walk through this path i want a good &special one lol
(is there any way to design a shell with Interchangeable tuning filters like RHA-T20 and interchangeable faceplate like small screw attaching to shell?that would be cool and for someone like me very cost effective*

*
(it's personal thing...i prefer to pay people like you ..it's make me feel good and will buy some(even a little) time and freedom for people like you to help others..

(It's funny that i'v  read many of your posts in this topic and waited so long for your tutorial that you promised before)
Thank you again for your kindness and your time...

Sorry again for bad english and talking too much*


----------



## aussietanker (Oct 12, 2017)

Squirg said:


> Clear shells are complete at 15 seconds with Egger. Much more than that, the canals are solid. Haven't used Dreve in a while.



Can i ask why you are using Egger in preference to Dreve. Is it simply a supply issue, price & cost, easier material to work with, thickness of the shell or you feel it gives you a clearer shell finish?  Would appreciate your opinions (before i place my order  )

Thanks


----------



## MuZo2

Where are you located? have you checked on taobao? they sell from complete ciem to shells , drivers, kits.


----------



## alanwcruz (Oct 13, 2017)

ism1360 said:


> *Hello
> It's so nice to know that there are people like you are out there...(feeling guilty for not being sad about this crappy situation)*
> *how you did it?
> Especially those electronic stuff...do you have any electronic knowledge?
> ...



I mostly used tutorials by Shilohsjustice, the only thing I haven't seen mentioned is the method I use to take ear impressions. Where I live audiologist supplies are very expensive and no audiologist I could find would only take my ear impressions. So I got myself some dental alginate and used it to take my impressions myself, it also takes practice to get good results, it's not as easy as it seems.

Here are my first tries:




As can be seen, they where completely unusable. But practice makes perfect.
 

After that, i just followed the gelatin mold tutorial:
   

Then poured acrilic and cured under my DIY cure chamber


As far as electronics, for my personal pair, i used a GK with red damper on the highs, also a HODVTEC in parallel for extra punch on bass:


After wrestling with the small space inside my shells in order to fit the drivers in, i made a blue faceplate dying acrilic with food coloring powder, covered my shell with it, attached some old cables i had lying around and voila


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Just curious if anyone has tried “alcohol ink” for coloring shells?

I picked some up and plan on doing some experimenting with it. Could be promising, I’ll post my thoughts over the weekend.


----------



## Im1fan2nv

alanwcruz said:


> I mostly used tutorials by Shilohsjustice, the only thing I haven't seen mentioned is the method I use to take ear impressions. Where I live audiologist supplies are very expensive and no audiologist I could find would only take my ear impressions. So I got myself some dental alginate and used it to take my impressions myself, it also takes practice to get good results, it's not as easy as it seems.
> 
> Here are my first tries:
> 
> ...



That's what I call getting it done..

I'm curious if you have any FR curves with the extra HODVTEC. I tried combining one with a GV using various tuning circuits and as it turned out, the FR curve and sound was better with just the GV. So I figured it was just a waste of money to put the extra HODVTEC in it.


----------



## ForceMajeure (Oct 14, 2017)

Shilohsjustice said:


> Just curious if anyone has tried “alcohol ink” for coloring shells?
> 
> I picked some up and plan on doing some experimenting with it. Could be promising, I’ll post my thoughts over the weekend.


alcohol ink is good if you want to dye certain materials before adding a resin layer on top. f.e metal or wood or other types. the advantage is that it drys quickly and can penetrate less porous surfaces. the effect coloring is a bit different and you can use it to your advantage to make certain designs

Btw alcohol inks are expensive. there are a few diy alcohol ink guides using sharpies and isoprpyl alcohol that work as good a s the real thing.
Ranger has a ton of special colors http://rangerink.com/?product=tim-holtz®-adirondack®-alcohol-inks


----------



## Shilohsjustice

ForceMajeure said:


> alcohol ink is good if you want to dye certain materials before adding a resin layer on top. f.e metal or wood or other types. the advantage is that it drys quickly and can penetrate less porous surfaces. the effect coloring is a bit different and you can use it to your advantage to make certain designs
> 
> Btw alcohol inks are expensive. there are a few diy alcohol ink guides using sharpies and isoprpyl alcohol that work as good a s the real thing.
> Ranger has a ton of special colors http://rangerink.com/?product=tim-holtz®-adirondack®-alcohol-inks


Thanks!!!! I colored some Fotoplast this morning before work and it mixed instantly. I’m going to see how it cure later today. There are some cool techniques I’m going to try for marbling that may workout cool. I’ll post later some pics.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Ok, so I don’t have any pics right now as I am not home, but I’m hoping to have some later. I can confirm that the alcohol ink is AWESOME at coloring Fotoplast. It mixes well and it cures well, I actually like it better than the resin obsession at the moment. I have tested 3 colors and will post some pics later with some results.


----------



## aussietanker

alanwcruz said:


> As far as electronics, for my personal pair, i used a GK with red damper on the highs, also a HODVTEC in parallel for extra punch on bass:



@alanwcruz.444931

It looks like your drivers are fully encased in the tubing or am I just seeing things? How did you do that? 



Shilohsjustice said:


> I can confirm that the alcohol ink is AWESOME at coloring Fotoplast. It mixes well and it cures well, I actually like it better than the resin obsession at the moment. I have tested 3 colors and will post some pics later with some results.



Have been spending a bit of time looking at YouTube videos on this very subject. I am keen to see how your's have turned out!


----------



## Arturo Sallas

Hey Guys here´s my first attempt. I followed the tutorials from Shilohsjustice about the gelatin molds, and the technique of pouring glycerine to finishe the curing and everything went fine. The color shell I made it with acrylic paint but it was supposed to be turquoise color but it turns darker when mixed with the resin, so now it´s an ugly greenish blue haha.

The drivers I used are HE-3175, WBFK-30000 HF reinforcement and a CI-22955 as subwoofer reinforcement. 

The only problem i have found that the HE-31751 has lower output than the rest of the drives so the lows overpower a little bit the highs, I´ll try to level them with resitors. 

Thanks everyone for all the info you guys put on here.


----------



## alanwcruz

Im1fan2nv said:


> That's what I call getting it done..
> 
> I'm curious if you have any FR curves with the extra HODVTEC. I tried combining one with a GV using various tuning circuits and as it turned out, the FR curve and sound was better with just the GV. So I figured it was just a waste of money to put the extra HODVTEC in it.



 Nope, no FR curves, I'm still not up to that step hahahaha. For now my ears are my measuring equipment. AFAIK GV already comes with a HODVTEC. The GK I use comes with a CI, I saw the curve for the HODVTEC in its datasheet and saw it has a higher db output on the bass frecuencies so I thought it would raise those frequencies if I paired them. It was quite the challenge fitting them all inside my extra small shells, and more of a challenge finding the correct tubes to get the sound I was looking for. As it has been said here, the tubing diameter plays a very big part in the sound, and with my horribly small ear canals, fitting individual tubes was all together imposible, so I used a small diameter tube on HODVTEC and a bigger diameter on the CI and put both of them together, so only a single tube would be used for bass and mid.

 I found that bass can be tuned playing around with the length of the tubbing.

Once I build my measuring rig I'll post my FR curves. 

Anyone have any pointers on how to build some DIY measuring equipment?


----------



## alanwcruz

aussietanker said:


> It looks like your drivers are fully encased in the tubing or am I just seeing things? How did you do that?



 Nope, just the tips are in the tubing, here's another pic where it can be seen better:


----------



## aussietanker

Got it!  Thanks for the explanation.  They look great.  I also see how you have "fed" one tube into the other to save some space.  How did you get a round hole in the other tube?  Is there a special punch that is used for this purpose?  And did you glue around the join?  


I am still waiting on my reasons and equipment to arrive so have to be content with lots of reading at the moment.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Here is a quick pic of the mixed Fotoplast, I haven’t made any shells but will be.


----------



## alanwcruz

aussietanker said:


> I also see how you have "fed" one tube into the other to save some space. How did you get a round hole in the other tube? Is there a special punch that is used for this purpose? And did you glue around the join?



I use the tip of my hot soldering iron. As far as glue, I use acrylic as glue, I put a little around the tube and then cure it for some 20 seconds. Gives a perfect seal and can be handled right away.


----------



## alanwcruz (Oct 15, 2017)

Shilohsjustice said:


> Here is a quick pic of the mixed Fotoplast, I haven’t made any shells but will be.



I'd love to see the results! I'm currently experimenting with some nail gels and powders, I'll post some results when I have something worth showing hahaha. In the mean time, watching last years superbowl my sister immediately noticed Gaga's CIEM's during the national anthem and dared me to make her a pair just like hers.

 Here's what I made for her:


----------



## Shilohsjustice (Oct 15, 2017)

alanwcruz said:


> I use the tip of my hot soldering iron. As far as glue, I use acrylic as glue, I put a little around the tube and then cure it for some 20 seconds. Gives a perfect seal and can be handled right away.



I used to use the acrylic as the glue in the beginning, just be careful as over time and constant use the tubing will inevitably pull away. I use loctite 495 now and ensure there is uv acrylic (Fotoplast) securing the tube down in the canal of the shell as well as the driver secured against the shell wall. I do this as I’ve had to fix so so so many builds in the beginning from drivers coming loose and dangling in the shell. Once you get your builds past only building for yourself you will start to think of longevity and durability of your builds. Will it withstand a drop? Or will it withstand someone headbanging? Will the resistors or caps come into contact with the drivers housing?

Those are questions I think about when I’m building IEM’s for someone. I built a set for the brother of the lead guitar player of Underoath the band. He is into heavy metal and is an extreme headbanger, if I did not secure it correctly the drivers would have come loose for sure.


----------



## alanwcruz

Shilohsjustice said:


> I used to use the acrylic as the glue in the beginning, just be careful as over time and constant use the tubing will inevitably pull away. I use loctite 495 now and ensure there is uv acrylic (Fotoplast) securing the tube down in the canal of the shell as well as the driver secured against the shell wall. I do this as I’ve had to fix so so so many builds in the beginning from drivers coming loose and dangling in the shell. Once you get your builds past only building for yourself you will start to think of longevity and durability of your builds. Will it withstand a drop? Or will it withstand someone headbanging? Will the resistors or caps come into contact with the drivers housing?
> 
> Those are questions I think about when I’m building IEM’s for someone. I built a set for the brother of the lead guitar player of Underoath the band. He is into heavy metal and is an extreme headbanger, if I did not secure it correctly the drivers would have come loose for sure.




Totally get what you're saying, building my pair I realized this would never be an issue as the drivers really have nowhere to go in case of a drop, it may seems as if I'm exaggerating but I really have small ears... hahaha, before I had my first set of perfects shells it never occurred to me to measure the actual space inside, so I had to dump my shells when I realized my drivers just wouldn't fit:

 

The second try went much better (as in i was able to fit the drivers), but after a very brief victory dance the faceplates cracked from the pressure, I guess I just packed them too tight...
 

Nowadays I just make my impressions taller to get more room inside the shells, and I use acrylic to secure the drivers to the walls of the shells just like you comment (at the beginning I didn't do this and they would rattle inside from the extra space), they have held up to a couple of falls without coming loose.


----------



## piotrus-g

Arturo Sallas said:


> The drivers I used are HE-3175, WBFK-30000 HF reinforcement and a CI-22955 as subwoofer reinforcement.


replace WBFK-30000 with 30095 because otherwise you are not really reinforcing HF. WBFK30000 has 100 Ohms DC which would make it probably around 500 Ohms at 10kHz, levels of this driver in your set up are way below the rest to make any significant impact.


----------



## Im1fan2nv

alanwcruz said:


> As far as electronics, for my personal pair, i used a GK with red damper on the highs, also a HODVTEC in parallel for extra punch on bass:



How did you get those tight bends on the tubing without it kinking? I've had no luck with bends like that.



Shilohsjustice said:


> I used to use the acrylic as the glue in the beginning, just be careful as over time and constant use the tubing will inevitably pull away. I use loctite 495 now and ensure there is uv acrylic (Fotoplast) securing the tube down in the canal of the shell as well as the driver secured against the shell wall. I do this as I’ve had to fix so so so many builds in the beginning from drivers coming loose and dangling in the shell. Once you get your builds past only building for yourself you will start to think of longevity and durability of your builds. Will it withstand a drop? Or will it withstand someone headbanging? Will the resistors or caps come into contact with the drivers housing?
> 
> Those are questions I think about when I’m building IEM’s for someone. I built a set for the brother of the lead guitar player of Underoath the band. He is into heavy metal and is an extreme headbanger, if I did not secure it correctly the drivers would have come loose for sure.



I too now use loctite, acrylic just kept coming loose.

Shilohsjustice, if you don't mind me asking, what configuration did you use for guitar sounds? I've had guitarist tell me they can't find headphones that give them a true guitar sound,they always sound like crap. They ask if I could make some that don't.


----------



## aussietanker

Can anyone recommended a website,  facebook page or similar that has a large gallery with lots of pics of really nice topend good looking custom iem's 

I want to have a good look at the various color combinations that the professionals make before starting out experimenting on my own

I tried Google images but it was very hit and miss.  I was hoping to be able to see some beautiful creations of a very high standard all in the one place

 Any ideas of such a gallery ?


----------



## alanwcruz

Im1fan2nv said:


> How did you get those tight bends on the tubing without it kinking? I've had no luck with bends like that.



I put an unbent paperclip inside the tube, then bend to the desired shape and take a lighter to put flame to the bends. After that I straighten the paper clip once again to take it out of the tube. 

The tube keeps the bend perfectly.


----------



## piotrus-g

aussietanker said:


> Any ideas of such a gallery ?


Instagram or twiter and search by hash tags - something like #iems or #custominears should give you plenty results in one place


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Im1fan2nv said:


> How did you get those tight bends on the tubing without it kinking? I've had no luck with bends like that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I am a guitar player and I prefer a 3 driver and most of the builds I do for Guitarists are 3 drivers.


----------



## Arturo Sallas (Oct 16, 2017)

piotrus-g said:


> replace WBFK-30000 with 30095 because otherwise you are not really reinforcing HF. WBFK30000 has 100 Ohms DC which would make it probably around 500 Ohms at 10kHz, levels of this driver in your set up are way below the rest to make any significant impact.



Thanks! I looked up the specs and it seems to be a better option than the 30000 I´ll try to order some of those but they take a few weeks to arrive since I live in Mexico City, but unfortunately now I only have the 30000  and I want to make it work with these. Any ideas? I found a speaker calculator at https://geoffthegreygeek.com/calculator-speakers-in-parallel/ and I was thinking adding a 40ohm in series with the CI22955 to balance the power consumption of all the drivers, that should balance the levels, what do you think?


----------



## piotrus-g

Arturo Sallas said:


> I want to make it work with these. Any ideas?


WBFK-30000 is not suitable for IEM applications.


----------



## cjxj

So I went to the CANJAM convention in Denver the other weekend. Thought I might share some comments about looking at CIEMs there, with the caveat that I’m still learning and am now even more aware of how little I know. Perhaps would be of interest, especially to beginners in my same, or similar situation. Sorry about the length and rather meandering narrative.


I spoke with a bunch of people, and listened to A LOT of in ear monitors from the likes of 64 Audio, JH (Jerry Harvey) Audio, Noble, Unique Melody, and quite a few others (Ultimate Ears was not there). All had most of their CIEM models there, but with universal outlets so they could be sampled with silicone/foam tips.


Some observations and conclusions first: Strangely, I was kind of wondering if I’d be discouraged by how much better the main line CIEM manufacturers products might sound compared to what I’ve made in my basement.  In the end, I felt just the opposite. I decided that I’m pretty satisfied with some of what I’ve already built and felt gratified that they, at least to my ears, they compared favorably with some rather pricey offerings.  For example, the “Low Pass CI / Bass CI / Mid-High TWFK” recipe I built as suggested earlier in this thread (~p265?) by piotrus-g (thank you!). Also decided that the set I made using the Knowles GV quad drivers still sounds very nice and much like many of the 4 driver setups I sampled. BTW, of the above, the first sounds a bit more “speaker-like” in the lows and the GV more “clinical” and tight. I like them both.


Of the big name brands I sampled, ALL had sets I thought were really good. Clearly, they know what they’re doing. On the other hand, I was pretty unimpressed with offerings from several lesser known, or no-name companies. At one such booth the rep prodded me several times to tell him honestly what I thought. I had to say I couldn’t find many positives other than lower price, - apologetically suggested he may want to spend some time listening to the competition and then come back and compare... (right, like I’m really an expert?)


I quickly got the notion that in that crowd, BEATS seem to really be discounted as being “headphones for dummies” and for clueless people who have no idea as to what they should be hearing. However I found it interesting that quite a number of companies had sets they described as having a “fun” profile which seemed really to be just another “V” shaped profile with bass emphasis…..um.. like BEATS? (ok, I admit I kind of like them too)


I know that I have some “age/abuse” hearing reduction, however I was really pleased that I could still hear and identify profile differences and identify quite a few of the claimed characteristics of the ones I sampled.


In general, more drivers per ear did not necessarily make me like a set any more. In fact I found myself pretty indifferent about some of the high dollar 9, 10, 12 driver models. I actually sampled several pretty good sounding doubles, but after 3 or 4 (some cases 6) drivers the incremental quality of sound seemed to mostly disappear. Admittedly, this could be due to my current level of hearing capabilities. If I was a true audiophile with young ears, I may have felt differently.  For now, I’ll stay away from attempting more than 4 or possibly 5 drivers for fear of wasting a lot of time screwing up what I don’t fully understand.


I found little correlation between a manufacturer’s frequency response graphs and what sounded good to me. 2 almost identical graphs might sound completely different to my ears. Yeah, I do understand how that can be…


I only listened to a handful of dynamic driver based earphones, but there was one particular single dynamic driver setup that I really liked from Periodic Audio  (Beryllium model, not so much the Titanium).


My mind kept going back to pondering how important it really is to be so precise. In the end, the sum of everything that the drivers create must pass through a single, convoluted, purely mechanical path before being sensed and sent to the brain to be interpreted as sound. I.e. eardrum>hammer>anvil>stirrup>oval window membrane, then once delivered to the inner ear, “wiggle” many thousands of hair cells connected to nerves, creating signals send to the brain to be interpreted as sound. Crazy.


In the end, the more I listened, the more selective I became. I had started this adventure to make some CIEMS for stage monitor use. I first made several 2 driver sets for myself that live in my gig bags. Upon returning home, I recalled hearing some pretty great sounding 2 drivers at the show and decided that the preconfigured Knowles “HE” dual driver set I first made was nice but had room for improvement. Also decided the other 2 driver setup I made for myself, reconfigured once already, while perfectly functional, is no longer satisfying at all. I cut both of them apart to modify/reconfigure. BTW, the latter one is now a really nice sounding 2 driver setup, based yet again on another Piotrus-g suggestion for a starting point. It’s now w 2way CI 30120, 15 ohm, yellow, 1.5 mm id tube  / Bellsing 30095 “WBFK”, 1.5uf, white, 2mm id tube. A budget $ keeper to my ears.


To the other new learners out there. Read this thread, but be aware it is dangerous. You could get hopelessly sucked in and lose a lot of sleep. On the other hand, if you pay attention to processes and recipes from the veterans such as Shiloh and Piotrus (and others), pretty cool results are possible. Thanks so much!


----------



## Im1fan2nv

Shilohsjustice said:


> I am a guitar player and I prefer a 3 driver and most of the builds I do for Guitarists are 3 drivers.



Any help on specific of the drivers? If you'd rather not share the specifics, I totally understand and will work from what you have given me. I have a few various drivers I could play with without shelling out extra cash right now.
As always, thanks for all your help around here.


----------



## Shilohsjustice (Oct 16, 2017)

Im1fan2nv said:


> Any help on specific of the drivers? If you'd rather not share the specifics, I totally understand and will work from what you have given me. I have a few various drivers I could play with without shelling out extra cash right now.
> As always, thanks for all your help around here.



There are no secrets in what I like when it comes to triple drivers, give me a GK circuit all day long.

Add an SWFK to make it a 5-Driver.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

cjxj said:


> So I went to the CANJAM convention in Denver the other weekend. Thought I might share some comments about looking at CIEMs there, with the caveat that I’m still learning and am now even more aware of how little I know. Perhaps would be of interest, especially to beginners in my same, or similar situation. Sorry about the length and rather meandering narrative.
> 
> 
> I spoke with a bunch of people, and listened to A LOT of in ear monitors from the likes of 64 Audio, JH (Jerry Harvey) Audio, Noble, Unique Melody, and quite a few others (Ultimate Ears was not there). All had most of their CIEM models there, but with universal outlets so they could be sampled with silicone/foam tips.
> ...




Mind Blown!!!!!!! Great perspective, thank you for sharing this info.


----------



## Bassiklee

Is that the stock crossover included in the GK?  just curious


----------



## aussietanker

piotrus-g said:


> Instagram or twiter and search by hash tags - something like #iems or #custominears should give you plenty results in one place



Thank you very much. I really appreciate the tip. I am only at the reading stage at the moment - and just starting to order all my supplies so that i can start practicing making these soon. But shipping this stuff to Australia is a killer - so i am hoping that i will be able to get some inspiration from the experts in regards to what color combinations and "effects" work the best - and hopefully not "waste" too much product with color combinations that don't work together.

I have had a look through the "Custom Art" thread here. Your designs are just simply awesome! And a huge thank you for the constant feedback and expert advice that you give to us "amateurs"  It's greatly appreciated 



cjxj said:


> So I went to the CANJAM convention in Denver the other weekend. Thought I might share some comments about looking at CIEMs there, with the caveat that I’m still learning and am now even more aware of how little I know. Perhaps would be of interest, especially to beginners in my same, or similar situation. Sorry about the length and rather meandering narrative.
> 
> 
> I spoke with a bunch of people, and listened to A LOT of in ear monitors from the likes of 64 Audio, JH (Jerry Harvey) Audio, Noble, Unique Melody, and quite a few others (Ultimate Ears was not there). All had most of their CIEM models there, but with universal outlets so they could be sampled with silicone/foam tips.
> ...



Very encouraging. Thank you for the feedback.



Shilohsjustice said:


> There are no secrets in what I like when it comes to triple drivers, give me a GK circuit all day long.
> 
> Add an SWFK to make it a 5-Driver.



Again, thank you so much for your contributions to the knowledge shared on this thread. I don't understand most of it at this point, but hopefully it will all seep in eventually


----------



## Im1fan2nv

Shilohsjustice said:


> There are no secrets in what I like when it comes to triple drivers, give me a GK circuit all day long.
> 
> Add an SWFK to make it a 5-Driver.



I know that you've spoke of those before but I figured as soon as I try to "assume", I'll end up wasting time and money so I figured it doesn't hurt to ask to be sure. However, you went above and beyond and I Thank You greatly for that!


----------



## piotrus-g

cjxj said:


> So I went to the CANJAM convention in Denver the other weekend. Thought I might share some comments about looking at CIEMs there, with the caveat that I’m still learning and am now even more aware of how little I know. Perhaps would be of interest, especially to beginners in my same, or similar situation. Sorry about the length and rather meandering narrative.
> 
> 
> I spoke with a bunch of people, and listened to A LOT of in ear monitors from the likes of 64 Audio, JH (Jerry Harvey) Audio, Noble, Unique Melody, and quite a few others (Ultimate Ears was not there). All had most of their CIEM models there, but with universal outlets so they could be sampled with silicone/foam tips.
> ...


Thanks man! I appreciate your kind words


----------



## aussietanker

Couple of quick questions to the experts on here:

1. In regards to wax dipping of the impressions > Are the simple & relatively inexpensive wax pots that are used in nail & beauty salons (i think for melting wax to remove hair) and that can be found all over ebay ok to use to melt and keep the wax at a constant temperature while doing that job?

2. Has anyone used a pressure pot to reduce bubble before UV curing and does it make a significant difference in getting an ultra clear shell?

Thats all thanks


----------



## Shilohsjustice

aussietanker said:


> Couple of quick questions to the experts on here:
> 
> 1. In regards to wax dipping of the impressions > Are the simple & relatively inexpensive wax pots that are used in nail & beauty salons (i think for melting wax to remove hair) and that can be found all over ebay ok to use to melt and keep the wax at a constant temperature while doing that job?
> 
> ...



1. I use an inexpensive wax pot I bought from amazon for like $25. It works perfect. So yes those work well. Most have a dial on the to regulate the temperature. 

2. I looked into the pressure tanks a long time ago but found the investment wasn’t necessary for me. Most uv acrylic when it sits will naturally displace any bubbles. So if I’m mixing colors I’ll mix and let it sit for awhile before pouting shells. The urge of excitement wants you to go quickly through each step, but I assure you to take your time. I do not use a pressure pot I use technique that reduce and eliminate the need for a pressure pot.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Bassiklee said:


> Is that the stock crossover included in the GK?  just curious



Yes, that is the stock crossover for a Knowles GK driver.


----------



## Bassiklee

Thank you.


----------



## aussietanker (Oct 17, 2017)

Shilohsjustice said:


> 1. I use an inexpensive wax pot I bought from amazon for like $25. It works perfect. So yes those work well. Most have a dial on the to regulate the temperature.
> 
> 2. I looked into the pressure tanks a long time ago but found the investment wasn’t necessary for me. Most uv acrylic when it sits will naturally displace any bubbles. So if I’m mixing colors I’ll mix and let it sit for awhile before pouting shells. The urge of excitement wants you to go quickly through each step, but I assure you to take your time. I do not use a pressure pot I use technique that reduce and eliminate the need for a pressure pot.



Thanks for the advice. It's a great help. I was looking at getting a professional level wax pot and pressure pot from overseas but will leave them both off the shopping list - and just get a much cheaper and simpler inexpensive wax pot that i can buy locally. It will also save a ton of shipping fees as i think the pressure pot was pretty heavy. I will make sure that it has a dial to regulate the temp.  I guess i can always get the pressure pot at a later stage if i feel that i need it.

Any thoughts as to the best materials to get for doing the impressions. There are so many different types on oaktree ... what do you guys use and like or find the easiest to use?


----------



## jbr1971

aussietanker said:


> .....Any thoughts as to the best materials to get for doing the impressions. There are so many different types on oaktree ... what do you guys use and like or find the easiest to use?



When I made mine I purchased a kit online. However, I just looked at the site and it appears they no longer sell it.

The Oaktree equivalent would be the following:

https://www.oaktreeproducts.com/impression-singles/westone-silicone-singles-304  (be sure to buy at least 2 (however I recommend 5 or more because it will probably take a few tries to get it right) and specify each as the unit)
https://www.oaktreeproducts.com/foam   (a must have to keep the material from sticking to the ear drum)
https://www.oaktreeproducts.com/injection-style-syringe-35cc-19-024

I will re-iterate what I have said in the past, making your own impressions is not the easiest thing to do, and does come with a fair amount of risk. You MUST be sure of your abilities to attempt this. Make sure to watch as many videos on the proper procedure as possible.

If you are able to find a local audiologist that will make them for a reasonable price I highly recommend going that route.

Good luck.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

aussietanker said:


> Thanks for the advice. It's a great help. I was looking at getting a professional level wax pot and pressure pot from overseas but will leave them both off the shopping list - and just get a much cheaper and simpler inexpensive wax pot that i can buy locally. It will also save a ton of shipping fees as i think the pressure pot was pretty heavy. I will make sure that it has a dial to regulate the temp.  I guess i can always get the pressure pot at a later stage if i feel that i need it.
> 
> Any thoughts as to the best materials to get for doing the impressions. There are so many different types on oaktree ... what do you guys use and like or find the easiest to use?



I use Westone singles which are cheap and easy with a good quality syringe. I have the exact setup as below. The syringe tips can be changed and I’ve never had an issue with it, works fantastic.


----------



## teddyblood (Oct 19, 2017)

*Hi everyone,*

I'm so glad that I finally found this awesome community right here. I wish I was here sooner, I've made many mistake s on making my first ciem (which is still not completed yet). I'm from a small country in southeast asia and it was very difficult to find the right tools and materials here.

This is my 1st time making ciem.

For my ciem, I've used thermoplastic clay to make an ear impression which I've burned my ear in the process (it was heated to around 60-70 Celsius, very dangerous). Then I used silicone sealant mix with soap water to make the negative which has horrible surface quality. And I used UV resin to make the shell which I have to sand for hours. I believe mine is the ugliest shell in this forum. haha.

*I've a few questions to ask you guys.
*
1. I have GK-31732 and RAB-32257 for my 4 drivers ciem. Is that a weird combination? It was very random. I have very little knowledge when I ordered them.

2. What length of the sound tube (id 1mm) for each drivers? I searched some comments here and it seems that woofer should be longer and tweeter should be shorter. But how long in mm? What about the fullrange like RAB?

3. What color dampers for each drivers do you guys recommend? I planned to use red for woofer in GK, grey for GK tweeter, green for RAB. Is that ok?

4. Important one (lol). How do you print logo/word on the faceplate resin? I'd love a custom logo on my faceplate.

*Thank you very much. *

I've attached photos of my work here. It is truly a shame. I'll try to improve it next time using knowledge I get from this thread. I wish I saw the Gelatin method before!


----------



## teddyblood (Oct 19, 2017)

Oh. Here are the photos.

The resin shell from the silicone negative

Thermoplastic clay impressions

sanded shell with 3 holes for sound tubes (all 1mm inner diameter)

GK and RAB in paralell. I have no idea about resistants or inductors so I wish to use dampers for tuning.


----------



## aussietanker

Quick question. How many shells can you made with approx 250ml of Shell material. I am trying to decide whether to get the 250g or the 500g bottle of UV shell material.


----------



## piotrus-g

aussietanker said:


> Quick question. How many shells can you made with approx 250ml of Shell material. I am trying to decide whether to get the 250g or the 500g bottle of UV shell material.


safely 10ml/shell


----------



## kleymenov

Hello!
Today I tried *Detax Duglasil Express* (Crystal clear cast silicone):

    
First of all, it really freezes in 5 minutes, but it has a lot of bubbles and cracks, I used a special gun and mixing canulas (the manufacturer wrote that the pressure pot not need if use gun). Second, it very expensive, one cartridge is enough for only one impression!
If you use silicone, you need to use pressure pot, even if you have a special tool like mine. So I decided to continue using agar ....


----------



## tomekk

Universal housings created by me. Nozzles have a cutter on tips. It wasn't easy, the whole design took me a lot of thinking.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

tomekk said:


> Universal housings created by me. Nozzles have a cutter on tips. It wasn't easy, the whole design took me a lot of thinking.




YES YES YES YES YES!!!!!! . 

Is that some awesome laser action I see!!!!!!!


----------



## aussietanker (Oct 19, 2017)

tomekk said:


> Universal housings created by me. Nozzles have a cutter on tips.



They look awesome.  But what is a cutter,  could you please explain

And did you also do some sort of special housing for the cable connector thing?


----------



## tomekk

Shilohsjustice said:


> laser action



yes 



aussietanker said:


> what is a cutter



I mean special cutout for hold on tips in place.


----------



## Im1fan2nv

tomekk said:


> Universal housings created by me. Nozzles have a cutter on tips. It wasn't easy, the whole design took me a lot of thinking.



They look awesome! I need a set like that which would allow me to change out different configurations in order to test the sound.. Any other ideas for testing different configurations before committing to them?

I still don't know how you guys achieve that crystal clear look. Mine are clear but have what looks like an uneven runny water type look. Did you use the gelatin method?


----------



## aussietanker

tomekk said:


> I mean special cutout for hold on tips in place



That is so clever  

Can you show a clearer pic of this cutout area please. It's amazing that you can create something like that. And they are soooo clear and transparent. What shell material do you use, Egger or Dreve?


----------



## tomekk

Im1fan2nv said:


> Did you use the gelatin method?



My only right choice - agar   Try polishing. It is easier than lack. It simply works. Try to test the configurations in existing headset housings. I used Westone 4, Ue900, Ue700, Ue600 without any problems.  



aussietanker said:


> cutout area



Dreve



I also wanted to show a piece of my work while creating horn design. They are unfinished yet. I have a little strange philosophy when working on the IEMs. I prefer to think and test interesting things, rather than pack a few drivers into shells. I am interested in acoustic design and possibilities of achieving maximum (sometimes surprising results) from simple configurations.


----------



## GeneBush

Im1fan2nv said:


> They look awesome! I need a set like that which would allow me to change out different configurations in order to test the sound.. Any other ideas for testing different configurations before committing to them?
> 
> I still don't know how you guys achieve that crystal clear look. Mine are clear but have what looks like an uneven runny water type look. Did you use the gelatin method?


Yes, you have to use gelatin to fully cure the shell without tackiness. Fully Immerse the shell In glycerin for at least 8 min under uv light. After rinse with etylic or rubbing alcohol.


----------



## aussietanker

tomekk said:


> special cutout for hold on tips in place



Thank you for the picture. I thought that is what you meant. I am amazed that you can create that in a "hobby" situation. It's simply awesome. 

1. How did you create the mold to do that? Did you hand carve one? 



tomekk said:


> I have a little strange philosophy when working on the IEMs. I prefer to think and test interesting things, rather than pack a few drivers into shells. I am interested in acoustic design and possibilities of achieving maximum (sometimes surprising results) from simple configurations.



2. I think it's awesome that all the experts on here are really stretching the design possibilities. Well done. You never know what great designs you might come up with by a bit of lateral thinking & experimentation. 



tomekk said:


> Try to test the configurations in existing headset housings. I used Westone 4, Ue900, Ue700, Ue600 without any problems.



3. What do you mean by this? Do you mean that you use the same drivers or same location of drivers in the shell?


----------



## Furco

Package from Westone arrived today.  Guess who’s back??

After a couple years perusing other interests, I’m committed to finishing my 6-driver in the next couple months.

The shell quality I’ve seen being posed is fantastic.  I’m very excited to have new 2 builds on my plate.


----------



## Squirg

Decided to add a flourcent 365nm bulb to my franken-oven. It actually works beautifully!  Only threw a breaker twice!


----------



## Im1fan2nv (Oct 21, 2017)

tomekk said:


> My only right choice - agar   Try polishing. It is easier than lack. It simply works. Try to test the configurations in existing headset housings. I used Westone 4, Ue900, Ue700, Ue600 without any problems.
> 
> 
> 
> I also wanted to show a piece of my work while creating horn design. They are unfinished yet. I have a little strange philosophy when working on the IEMs. I prefer to think and test interesting things, rather than pack a few drivers into shells. I am interested in acoustic design and possibilities of achieving maximum (sometimes surprising results) from simple configurations.



*I can polish the outside but it seems to be the inside. It looks very clear when I pull it out of the glycerin but once I clean with alcohol, it turns foggy looking. I lack it, inside and out because of the foggy look, then it has that runny water look. It's very clear, but not an even looking clear like looking through a piece of glass. It's more like a piece of plexiglass that has been heated and bent. It seems to be caused by the lack. It doesn't seem to matter if I leave the lack sit to "flow" and even out or not. I don't know how else to get rid of the foggy look on the inside.  Do you use some type of small dremal bit to polish that? It would seem very difficult to get way down by the output port. Or, am I doing something wrong? I cure, to obtain desired thickness, pour out, let sit upside down about a minute, cure 1 min upside down, pull from mold, place fully in glycerin and cure 1 minute, place fully in alcohol and shake and clean for about 30 sec, remove and clean with alcohol and Q-Tip. At this stage, it is Not tacky but looks foggy once it's dry.*
*
That horn looks Great! Has it been proven to help and if so, at any particular frequency range?*



GeneBush said:


> Yes, you have to use gelatin to fully cure the shell without tackiness. Fully Immerse the shell In glycerin for at least 8 min under uv light. After rinse with etylic or rubbing alcohol.



I'm not using gelatin, I'm using the ballistics gel that is very clear. It comes out tacky but I thought that was normal until the glycerin cure? Correct? Also, I'm not doing 8 minutes of glycerin, I thought too much UV would cause shell to start yellowing? Correct?


Thanks guys!


----------



## ForceMajeure

Squirg said:


> Decided to add a flourcent 365nm bulb to my franken-oven. It actually works beautifully!  Only threw a breaker twice!


why adding another bulb when you are able to cure transparent shells in 15sec?
also do you use this bulb in conjunction with the rest or do you use it separately?

Last question. I see you have in the background a UV "gun" used by dentists. does it cure the resin for you? is it fast? do you know the wavelength output?


----------



## GeneBush (Oct 21, 2017)

Im1fan2nv said:


> *I can polish the outside but it seems to be the inside. It looks very clear when I pull it out of the glycerin but once I clean with alcohol, it turns foggy looking. I lack it, inside and out because of the foggy look, then it has that runny water look. It's very clear, but not an even looking clear like looking through a piece of glass. It's more like a piece of plexiglass that has been heated and bent. It seems to be caused by the lack. It doesn't seem to matter if I leave the lack sit to "flow" and even out or not. I don't know how else to get rid of the foggy look on the inside.  Do you use some type of small dremal bit to polish that? It would seem very difficult to get way down by the output port. Or, am I doing something wrong? I cure, to obtain desired thickness, pour out, let sit upside down about a minute, cure 1 min upside down, pull from mold, place fully in glycerin and cure 1 minute, place fully in alcohol and shake and clean for about 30 sec, remove and clean with alcohol and Q-Tip. At this stage, it is Not tacky but looks foggy once it's dry.
> 
> That horn looks Great! Has it been proven to help and if so, at any particular frequency range?*
> 
> ...


The yellowing depends on what type of acrylic you’re using. I use fotoplast by dreve and 8 min of uv cure won’t make my shells yellow. 

Do not clean the shell after the first cure, put it directly sliding it from the mold to a trasparent cup full of glycerin. Make shure that the shell fills with glycerin and stays immersed all the time. Try to avoid small bubbles forming around the shell cause if so they will remain after the cure.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Im1fan2nv said:


> *I can polish the outside but it seems to be the inside. It looks very clear when I pull it out of the glycerin but once I clean with alcohol, it turns foggy looking. I lack it, inside and out because of the foggy look, then it has that runny water look. It's very clear, but not an even looking clear like looking through a piece of glass. It's more like a piece of plexiglass that has been heated and bent. It seems to be caused by the lack. It doesn't seem to matter if I leave the lack sit to "flow" and even out or not. I don't know how else to get rid of the foggy look on the inside.  Do you use some type of small dremal bit to polish that? It would seem very difficult to get way down by the output port. Or, am I doing something wrong? I cure, to obtain desired thickness, pour out, let sit upside down about a minute, cure 1 min upside down, pull from mold, place fully in glycerin and cure 1 minute, place fully in alcohol and shake and clean for about 30 sec, remove and clean with alcohol and Q-Tip. At this stage, it is Not tacky but looks foggy once it's dry.
> 
> That horn looks Great! Has it been proven to help and if so, at any particular frequency range?*
> 
> ...



For what it’s worth, cure, pour out excess, cure again double original cure time, pull out and place in glycerin bath cure for 8-12 min (I cure with the hollow end up so UV lights gets down into it.), spend a bit more time in the alcohol wash (I swish it around and take a soft toothbrush and scrub it a bit), make sure to get all the glycerin out, DO NOT WIPE OUT WITH Q-TIP, sometimes q-tips are lightly coated with powder so essentially you are smearing this all over the inside, take out of alchol and let it dry (I set my shells on a set of tweezers so air can get under it), I’ll hit the inside sometimes with a blow dryer insuring all the alcohol is dry, then you can wipe if needed with a q-tip.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

ForceMajeure said:


> why adding another bulb when you are able to cure transparent shells in 15sec?
> also do you use this bulb in conjunction with the rest or do you use it separately?
> 
> Last question. I see you have in the background a UV "gun" used by dentists. does it cure the resin for you? is it fast? do you know the wavelength output?



I have one of those cute guns and yes they work well. They don’t flash cure like the nail uv light so it makes it perfect for spot curing the Faceplates after lak has been applied. Lak can cure too fast resulting in dimples or bumps. The gun eliminates that so your Faceplates are glass like. If it’s a build I am using Lak on I will first use the gun on the Faceplate of the build for about 1 min then I’ll put it in my chamber for 1 min to fully cure. I think the wave length is 315nm - 365nm, it would seem as the bulb heats up the wavelength gets stronger.


----------



## ForceMajeure (Oct 21, 2017)

Shilohsjustice said:


> I have one of those cute guns and yes they work well. They don’t flash cure like the nail uv light so it makes it perfect for spot curing the Faceplates after lak has been applied. Lak can cure too fast resulting in dimples or bumps. The gun eliminates that so your Faceplates are glass like. If it’s a build I am using Lak on I will first use the gun on the Faceplate of the build for about 1 min then I’ll put it in my chamber for 1 min to fully cure. I think the wave length is 315nm - 365nm, it would seem as the bulb heats up the wavelength gets stronger.


His unit looks like an OPTILUX 500 
from what I have been able to read it seems the wavelength is 400-505 nm
in the user manual https://embed.widencdn.net/download/kavokerr/ywjf9ps8lr/dfu-optilux-501-960681_rev_f.pdf?u=18sth1 there are a few operational modes including ramp up mode.
intensity 100-1999 mW/cm²

there are way cheaper dental LED alternative on ebay that claim to give the same mW/cm² intensity
It would be interesting to see if they work too. the main potential issue is their wavelength.

because the optilux is an halogen based unit and has a simple blue filter infront of it, it might be able to allow a wider range of light wavelength to go through. basically curing material that need a lower wavelength peak. the LED alternative might not.


----------



## Squirg

ForceMajeure said:


> why adding another bulb when you are able to cure transparent shells in 15sec?
> also do you use this bulb in conjunction with the rest or do you use it separately?
> 
> Last question. I see you have in the background a UV "gun" used by dentists. does it cure the resin for you? is it fast? do you know the wavelength output?



Mainly because I am never satisfied!  And, those round LED bulbs are 395nm and I wanted to make sure I am getting down to the recommended 365. Hopefully, limiting the tacky layer a bit more. I’ll test it out and let you know.

I haven’t figured out how to run the lights separate. As of now, it’s all or none.


ForceMajeure said:


> His unit looks like an OPTILUX 500
> from what I have been able to read it seems the wavelength is 400-505 nm
> in the user manual https://embed.widencdn.net/download/kavokerr/ywjf9ps8lr/dfu-optilux-501-960681_rev_f.pdf?u=18sth1 there are a few operational modes including ramp up mode.
> intensity 100-1999 mW/cm²
> ...


----------



## ForceMajeure

Squirg said:


> Mainly because I am never satisfied!  And, those round LED bulbs are 395nm and I wanted to make sure I am getting down to the recommended 365. Hopefully, limiting the tacky layer a bit more. I’ll test it out and let you know.
> 
> I haven’t figured out how to run the lights separate. As of now, it’s all or none.


As far as I understand there is no way to reduce the tacky layer beside curing with gas or using the glycerin bath. it's part of the curing process from the resin. basically the resin contains photoinitiators, monomers and oligomers. once hit by the uv light the photoinitiator is excited and releases free radicals that help the monomers and oligomers to bond at the molecular level creating a much heavier molecule structure.

 the problem is that the free radicals combine easily with oxygen, where there is more oxygen available is at the surface so those free radicals are now "missing" from the surface layer to help the remaining components to bond.

I don't know about different lenses for halogen bulbs. maybe there are.


----------



## Squirg

FYI - this is a super cheap/super effective spot curing light!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/5MW-405nm-...406125?hash=item58f039412d:g:HlEAAOSwWxNYt5FU


----------



## Shilohsjustice

@ForceMajeure I have the 3m xl3000 I bought off eBay for $40. You are correct as it’s output is 400nm-500nm blue light. Interesting enough it doesn’t cure at the same time as my chamber or the scorpion flashlight. Here is the specs of mine which is the same as the 2500 below just has a light tester in it to verify light output.


----------



## ForceMajeure

a good technique to make thicker faceplates without the need to do it in a few runs (because of the tacky layer) is to cure between 2 non sticky transparent sheets like scotch tape. avoiding the air to come in contact completely.
the problem is that it will be flat if you want a dome shape you you will need to add resin to it.


----------



## Squirg

ForceMajeure said:


> a good technique to make thicker faceplates without the need to do it in a few runs (because of the tacky layer) is to cure between 2 non sticky transparent sheets like scotch tape. avoiding the air to come in contact completely.
> the problem is that it will be flat if you want a dome shape you you will need to add resin to it.



YES!  I have been doing the same thing.  I have a few pieces of plexiglass that I use for this purpose.  It's funny how us tinkerers come up with the same techniques!


----------



## Squirg

...maybe a bit much. This is 15 seconds after my “improvement”.







Squirg said:


> Mainly because I am never satisfied!  And, those round LED bulbs are 395nm and I wanted to make sure I am getting down to the recommended 365. Hopefully, limiting the tacky layer a bit more. I’ll test it out and let you know.
> 
> I haven’t figured out how to run the lights separate. As of now, it’s all or none.


----------



## aussietanker

Hey everyone ..

All the dental LED spot curing lamps that i can see here on ebay are from 420 or 430nm up to around 480nm. I cant seem to find any (that are not $200+ that are as low as 400nm wavelength. And they all seem to be 5W  Is that wavelength and wattage ok for the "spot" work attaching the faceplates?


----------



## ForceMajeure

Squirg said:


> ...maybe a bit much. This is 15 seconds after my “improvement”.


haha I want to suntan in your new improved uv machine...seriously though, this is very powerful. having this kind of thickness in 15sec is impressive though I would consider using the extra bulb only for colors.



aussietanker said:


> Hey everyone ..
> 
> All the dental LED spot curing lamps that i can see here on ebay are from 420 or 430nm up to around 480nm. I cant seem to find any (that are not $200+ that are as low as 400nm wavelength. And they all seem to be 5W  Is that wavelength and wattage ok for the "spot" work attaching the faceplates?


yes that's the issue with LEDs. somehow the lower the wavelength the higher the costs. as far as I understand 405nm LED might be able to cure the resins, I know some UV glues need that range. BTW there is no need for a specific spot curing device in order to attach the plate to the shell. you can always use the regular uv lamp to do that.


----------



## aussietanker (Oct 22, 2017)

ForceMajeure said:


> BTW there is no need for a specific spot curing device in order to attach the plate to the shell. you can always use the regular uv lamp to do that.



Thank you for that information. I have ordered a regular UV LED cure machine to do the shells. It does 315nm > 400nm. From reading a few of the posts i was worried that a second exposure of UV light onto the shell (to attach the faceplate) might cause the shell to yellow - or at least not as clear as it could be. Is this not an issue?

And another question for the experts on here. I have been looking at some of the custom manufacturers - have any of you guys tried using different diameter bores for different frequency drivers - and if so, did it make a difference?


----------



## teddyblood

Quick question.
Damper's mesh facing the BA driver or the ear canal?


----------



## Furco

teddyblood said:


> Quick question.
> Damper's mesh facing the BA driver or the ear canal?



I believe mesh towards BA.  this allows your to adjust it or remove it after the ciem is assembled.


----------



## teddyblood (Oct 23, 2017)

Furco said:


> I believe mesh towards BA.  this allows your to adjust it or remove it after the ciem is assembled.


Thank you so much! 
One more question please. I wonder if damper location effect the sound. For the same tube length, damper placed near the BA or near ear canal, are there any differences?


----------



## Im1fan2nv (Oct 23, 2017)

I have a general question. I understand that the glycerin cure step is to remove the shell from an oxygen environment. Is there something special in glycerin that helps here or would some other oil base product work? Say for instance mineral oil?
Just a thought but wasn’t sure if there was something specific in glycerin.




tomekk said:


> My only right choice - agar   Try polishing. It is easier than lack. It simply works. Try to test the configurations in existing headset housings. I used Westone 4, Ue900, Ue700, Ue600 without any problems.




The horn looks great. I’m curious if there has been test to confirm that it’s effective in benefiting the sound?
Thanks


----------



## tomekk

teddyblood said:


> I wonder if damper location effect the sound. For the same tube length, damper placed near the BA or near ear canal, are there any differences?



Yes, the closer to the tube exit, the more damping. Closer to the driver less damping.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Furco said:


> I believe mesh towards BA.  this allows your to adjust it or remove it after the ciem is assembled.



Both directions will work and will not effect the frequency but Like Furco said, if you have the damper tool you can remove with the mesh towards the armature. I have done a build for someone who has an over producing waxy ear and for that reason I had the mesh side point towards the ear to prevent them from impacting the opening of the damper with wax making it easier to clean.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Glycerin is best as it is not solvent based, strictly to remove from oxygen environment. If you use anything else it may be difficult for the alcohol bath to remove. Glycerin when it comes in contact with the alcohol dissolves, if you use oil based or strong solvents you will dull the surface resulting in less than stellar results. So Glycerin bath is the way to go.


----------



## Shilohsjustice (Oct 23, 2017)

Just giving everyone a update on the Retro-Tutorial I will be doing with the UV nail polish.

Still waiting for the UV Nail Polish.

I plan on this Tutorial being my 500th post as both celebration of where we have come from and a guide for those who do not have access to industry standard material/tools. I will go from start to finish with links to tools and materials. I’m thinking keeping it simple and doing the Savant Clone as it is still my favorite dual driver setup.

What do you guys think? Do you want any particular color or faceplate material?

Give me some ideas as to what you want me to do and what you want to see.


----------



## tomekk

Im1fan2nv said:


> I’m curious if there has been test to confirm that it’s effective in benefiting the sound?



better propagation of high tones, especially if you want them to be better exposed. This is very measurable after checking the graphs. In my opinion, more air.



Shilohsjustice said:


> Retro-Tutorial I will be doing with the UV nail polish



UV nail - good times


----------



## Furco

Shilohsjustice said:


> Just giving everyone a update on the Retro-Tutorial I will be doing with the UV nail polish.
> 
> Still waiting for the UV Nail Polish.
> 
> ...



If you'er not offended, I'd love to offer some "wish list" topics.  I've been thinking about doing this for a while but it would require a bit of an investment in time, money and definitely audio/video equipment to make it as detailed as I'd want it to be.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Furco said:


> If you'er not offended, I'd love to offer some "wish list" topics.  I've been thinking about doing this for a while but it would require a bit of an investment in time, money and definitely audio/video equipment to make it as detailed as I'd want it to be.



What are your wish list topics you would like covered???


----------



## Einencool

Hello together,

First at all, sorry for my english 

After a while, I‘ve got another question. 
I‘m making a pair CIEM for a friend, but his Impressions are not so good, the seal I get with them is not outstanding.
I‘ve waxed them two times to get the wax thicker, but it wasn‘t enough.
So I tried to get a extra layer acryl on the shell. 
The color of the shells is black.

But I have the Problem, that the layer didn‘t cure very good.
I applied it with a brush and let it turn around for about 3 minutes. Then I put it outside the UV-Chamber to prevent it from curing to fast, because then I get big bubbles from curing. After two minutes I put it into the Chamber and let it cure for about 5 minutes. Then I placed it in a glas of glycerin and cured it for another 10 minutes. 
Then I pured out the glycerin and let it sit for the night. 
Today I cleaned the shell, but with the Ethanol or Isopropanol I solved the brand new layer, and it came all off again.
In the Glycerin there also came some very big bubbles on the surface, that burned into / onto the surface.

Can anyone help me, with my faults?

Thank you in advance


----------



## alanwcruz

Einencool said:


> Hello together,
> 
> First at all, sorry for my english
> 
> ...



In my experience it's better to just dump the impressions and get new ones, trying to thicken the shell after the fact will result in shells that are inaccurate and could cause pain when worn.

What are you using to color your shells?


----------



## Einencool

I colored them with airbrush ink.
I made a pair for myself and it is really nice, but far away from the quality of the real Pro‘s here *g*

With the impressions that is a little tricky here, because we don‘t have so much good audiologists at the place, and the impressions are not so cheap here...


----------



## Lucas Taboada

Anyone knows what type of connector is this?





I'm looking for an better alternative to the mmcx/2pin connector, because I can't find them here in Brazil.


----------



## alanwcruz

Einencool said:


> I colored them with airbrush ink.
> I made a pair for myself and it is really nice, but far away from the quality of the real Pro‘s here *g*
> 
> With the impressions that is a little tricky here, because we don‘t have so much good audiologists at the place, and the impressions are not so cheap here...



Do what I do, use dental alginate and take the impressions yourself. It's very cheap, it just takes a bit of practice to get them right. Just remember to protect the inner ear with some type of dam beforehand. I make my dams with a bit of sponge tied to dental floss.


----------



## Einencool

I don‘t think, that i want to do it for the friend, its a bit scary for me 

Two month ago, I‘ve made adapters for my „beats X“ . On the right side, the seal was very poor, and for a test I tried to add two extra layers of acryl, and it works really nice. After that, I‘m now thinking to add another layer to the other side *g*

At this point I didn‘t have any issues with the curing process, the only thing I couldn‘t do, is to cure it in the glycerin, because there was all the elctronic in the shell. So I think, I will test it again for the friend to add another layer without curing in the glycerin. Without Glycerin I found that I have to wait after the curing and before the cleaning with ethanol / isopropanol for a day or so, otherwise the surface is completly opaque


----------



## alanwcruz

Einencool said:


> I don‘t think, that i want to do it for the friend, its a bit scary for me
> 
> Two month ago, I‘ve made adapters for my „beats X“ . On the right side, the seal was very poor, and for a test I tried to add two extra layers of acryl, and it works really nice. After that, I‘m now thinking to add another layer to the other side *g*
> 
> At this point I didn‘t have any issues with the curing process, the only thing I couldn‘t do, is to cure it in the glycerin, because there was all the elctronic in the shell. So I think, I will test it again for the friend to add another layer without curing in the glycerin. Without Glycerin I found that I have to wait after the curing and before the cleaning with ethanol / isopropanol for a day or so, otherwise the surface is completly opaque



Have you tried using No Wipe nail acrylic? I use it to coat mine and it does not leave any ugly residue, no need for the glycerin bath. Or you could also try some fotoplast lack although it's very expensive, as in liquid gold expensive. XD


----------



## GeneBush

teddyblood said:


> Thank you so much!
> One more question please. I wonder if damper location effect the sound. For the same tube length, damper placed near the BA or near ear canal, are there any differences?


This link might explain smth:

http://www.microsonic-inc.com/index2.php?section=49


----------



## Einencool

The fotoplast lack I have here, and I apply it always, when I‘ve finished the shells, to be save, that nothing will come into contact with the ear, that is not skin save. 
I could imagine, that the layer I applied was to thick to cure well. So I will try it the next days, to apply only a little acryl once a time, then let it dry for a day and then after cleaning, add another thin layer. 

When you are applying the fotoplast lack, how do you do this, I‘ve read about it, to cure it with a little Spot-light or so. I have always the issue, that I will get small bubbles in the finish. How do I prevent them? I‘ve got a UV-Led witl 365nm and today I added a bit of a drinking straw to have only a Spot-curing light, but I don‘t know to which power I will light the LED... I‘ve got a variable Power supply and will start with some low energy


----------



## Furco (Oct 23, 2017)

I've been mulling this idea for a while.  Given most of us have seen 100's of UV curing setups, negative mold making materials, lots of different UV acrylic, I'm wondering if we could come up with a calibration method that could be used to accurately predict how long it would take to create shells of any thickness regardless of any of these variables in methods or materials?  Here's an example of my idea in action:

a)  Prepare a mold using the container and mold material I have access to (e.g. ballistics gel; Knox gelatin; whatever else I can get my hands on)
b)  Make a negative mold of a pencil or pen 1/2 way through the mold.
c)  When the mold hardens, remove the pen/pencil
d)  Fill the mold half with acrylic
e)  Expose the mold for 10 seconds in your UV station
f)  Check the center of the acrylic with a toothpick or pin to see if solid, if not, goto e)

When the acrylic is solid, add up the time it took to complete the 100% curing cycle (e.g. 185 seconds).
Measure the diameter of the pen/pencil (e.g. 7.1mm)

Use the formula to calculate curing rate/mm:

diameter/time = Curing Rate
For Example:  7.1mm/185sec = 0.038mm/s

Now, if want a set of shells that are 2 mm thick, it should be easy enough to calculate the Exposure Time via the formula:

shell thickness / curing rate = Exposure Time
For Example:  2mm / 0.038mm/s = 52 seconds

In theory this sounds reasonable, but in reality, it seems fraught with problems.

Thoughts?


----------



## Andrumgt (Oct 23, 2017)

Lucas Taboada said:


> Anyone knows what type of connector is this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That is a DC connector, you can find it on aliexpress or in any serious electronics shop, online or not.


----------



## Bassiklee

Furco said:


> I've been mulling this idea for a while.  Given most of us have seen 100's of UV curing setups, negative mold making materials, lots of different UV acrylic, I'm wondering if we could come up with a calibration method that could be used to accurately predict how long it would take to create shells of any thickness regardless of any of these variables in methods or materials?  Here's an example of my idea in action:
> 
> a)  Prepare a mold using the container and mold material I have access to (e.g. ballistics gel; Knox gelatin; whatever else I can get my hands on)
> b)  Make a negative mold of a pencil or pen 1/2 way through the mold.
> ...




Way too many variables to come up with an accurate formula like that.  For instance:

What is the rate at which UV light gets through your gel?  Is it the same as my gel? How far from the edge of the gel to the resin?  How powerful is your light? Any pigment?? The list goes on and I'm.  I'm trying to come up with a list like that,  as it applies to me.  My light,  my investment material,  my cup size,  etc.  Currently a work in progress.


----------



## aussietanker

Shilohsjustice said:


> What do you guys think? Do you want any particular color or faceplate material?
> 
> Give me some ideas as to what you want me to do and what you want to see.



I'm happy to see anything really. In my mind i break these builds up into 2 parts. The "shell" part and the "electronics" part.  In regards to the shell part I THINK that i understand the process reasonably well and would be keen to see how you do some of the trickier "artistic" effects. In particular i would be keen to see how you do the following ...

1. How you color the tips of the shell so that they are a different color from the rest of the body of the shell
2. How you create marble and swirl colored paint effects in the rest of the shell
3. I also wouldn't mind to see how you add things like glitter or silver/gold flakes to both the shell and the faceplate.

In regards to the electronics part i would be keen to see how you do a "multi driver" unit where you have to add "crossovers, capacitors and the other bits" because i think that's the part where i struggle most.

I think that's the main things from my POV. Very keen to see how this goes.


----------



## Bassiklee (Oct 23, 2017)

Two methods for me.  The trio of glittery shells are simply painted inside of a clear shell.  The two gold shells were an experiment today.  Pour clear, cook it for about 30 seconds, dump it out and pour glitter resin in,  cook about two min. That's the one on the right. The one on the left is just glitter resin.  You can see the glitter in the little plastic bag.  The molds used for the gold test shells are my first set,  very bubbly silicone. For resin, so far,  I'm playing with Solarez.  I have Fotoplast lak 3 for a top coat.  Solarez behaves well,  and it's $57/gallon. I just received some Krystalloid hydrocolloid today.  The clear shells are with that, using Solarez and a set of impressions coated in lacquer.


----------



## alanwcruz

Bassiklee said:


> Two methods for me.  The trio of glittery shells are simply painted inside of a clear shell.  The two gold shells were an experiment today.  Pour clear, cook it for about 30 seconds, dump it out and pour glitter resin in,  cook about two min. That's the one on the right. The one on the left is just glitter resin.  You can see the glitter in the little plastic bag.  The molds used for the gold test shells are my first set,  very bubbly silicone. For resin, so far,  I'm playing with Solarez.  I have Fotoplast lak 3 for a top coat.  Solarez behaves well,  and it's $57/gallon. I just received some Krystalloid hydrocolloid today.  The clear shells are with that, using Solarez and a set of impressions coated in lacquer.



Careful with polyester resins, they usually aren't meant for direct contact with skin, let alone the very sensitive skin inside the ear. Make sure the resin is completely inert and safe for human contact once cured.


----------



## Bassiklee

It will be fully coated in Fotoplast lak 3. The trio above are made from a medical grade UV resin.


----------



## Furco (Oct 23, 2017)

Bassiklee said:


> Way too many variables to come up with an accurate formula like that.  For instance:
> 
> What is the rate at which UV light gets through your gel?  Is it the same as my gel? How far from the edge of the gel to the resin?  How powerful is your light? Any pigment?? The list goes on and I'm.  I'm trying to come up with a list like that,  as it applies to me.  My light,  my investment material,  my cup size,  etc.  Currently a work in progress.



My desire to come up with a calibration method wasn’t necessarily for a sharing or standardizing curing rates but more along the lines of answering the question: “If I change something in my method, such a getting a new UV light, or trying a different acrylic resin, is there some way I can quickly recalibrate things instead of going through many rounds of trial and error?”  For beginners, or diy’ers who have limited acces to raw materials, this could be a potential money-saver for them.  And for some of us “old-timers”, starting over can be frustrating.


----------



## Bassiklee

Gotcha. I read it wrong.  Mea culpa.


----------



## Furco

aussietanker said:


> I'm happy to see anything really. In my mind i break these builds up into 2 parts. The "shell" part and the "electronics" part.  In regards to the shell part I THINK that i understand the process reasonably well and would be keen to see how you do some of the trickier "artistic" effects. In particular i would be keen to see how you do the following ...
> 
> 1. How you color the tips of the shell so that they are a different color from the rest of the body of the shell
> 2. How you create marble and swirl colored paint effects in the rest of the shell
> ...




2. How you create marble and swirl colored paint effects in the rest of the shell

YouTube “swirl nail art”.  Your swirl designs are almost limitless.


----------



## ForceMajeure (Oct 24, 2017)

Furco said:


> 2. How you create marble and swirl colored paint effects in the rest of the shell
> 
> YouTube “swirl nail art”.  Your swirl designs are almost limitless.


You still have to thank your daughter for those beauties haha


----------



## bartzky

Furco said:


> Use the formula to calculate curing rate/mm:
> 
> diameter/time = Curing Rate
> For Example: 7.1mm/185sec = 0.038mm/s
> ...


You're assuming linear curing behavior. I'd say the curing behavior is logarithmic: As soon as the outer shell has built up, some of the light will be absorbed and the curing rate will get slower.

I'd try to get a few data points of time and thickness and do a logarithmic fit algorithm. You may go here and just fill in your values or even add some more: click

Also mind that the curing rates might be higher if you're using smaller objects like a pencil.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Clear with Pearl Faceplates.


----------



## ForceMajeure (Oct 24, 2017)

Furco said:


> I've been mulling this idea for a while.  Given most of us have seen 100's of UV curing setups, negative mold making materials, lots of different UV acrylic, I'm wondering if we could come up with a calibration method that could be used to accurately predict how long it would take to create shells of any thickness regardless of any of these variables in methods or materials?  Here's an example of my idea in action:
> 
> a)  Prepare a mold using the container and mold material I have access to (e.g. ballistics gel; Knox gelatin; whatever else I can get my hands on)
> b)  Make a negative mold of a pencil or pen 1/2 way through the mold.
> ...



there are a few factors you need to know before attempting some measurments and formula.

1st you need to know the INTENSITY rating of your uv curing solution at a certain distance (the farther it is from the uv source the less intensity). there are ways of measuring it with a UV meter (results are in W/cm^2).
you have to remember that UV bulbs will get less efficient with use

2nd you need to measure what's called the UV DOSE which is the intensity along exposure time. there are solutions for that also. If I recall correctly there are strips you can buy that change colors with exposure and there is a certain device that can calculate the dose once you insert the strip inside.

those 2 parameters are related so if you are able to measure one you could theoretically know the other.
what you need in the end is a UV dose. it doesn't matter if your curing is less efficient all it needs is enough exposure time at the needed wavelength to receive enough uv energy.
Basically meaning that if your curing solution has twice  as more intensity than another solution it should give you the same results with half the curing time


now thickness and transparency of your molds are part of the "game" also same goes with resin used. not all resins cures the same.

But first you need a way to measure the UV DOSE or UV intensity and calculate it over time.

Anyway what's the point... we should all get the same uv curing system as squirg and be done with it haha. give us the 15sec curing time


----------



## Shilohsjustice

I get 2mm shells clear shells at 1min 30sec. What do I know though, I’ve never tried calculating I just use the old fashioned paper method. 

Clear shells = 1min 30sec
Burnt umber = 2min 20sec
Smoke shells = 2min 50sec

Don’t get me wrong, the science behind it is totally relevant but with practice and technique there comes a feel to it where you just know how long to “cook” it. @ForceMajeure is absolutely right that there are so many factors that go into play and everyone would have to have the same control group for it to work. I have a little black book convieniently labeled the “cook book” which have my times written in for optimal shell thinkness.


----------



## Bassiklee

Do you mix your colored resin per pair? I know Fotoplast only comes in a few colors,  including clear.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Bassiklee said:


> Do you mix your colored resin per pair? I know Fotoplast only comes in a few colors,  including clear.



I mix in small batches enough to make what I’m working on


----------



## Arturo Sallas

Furco said:


> 2. How you create marble and swirl colored paint effects in the rest of the shell
> 
> YouTube “swirl nail art”.  Your swirl designs are almost limitless.



I want to try this effect. Do you guys do the swirl effect and then apply a thin layer of resin to seal it? Doesn't this affect the fit of the shell in the ear canal?


----------



## aussietanker

Bassiklee said:


> pour glitter resin



So you do an initial pour of clear resin, then give it a short uv light exposure to slightly "set" it - then you mix glitter into a fresh batch of uncured resin, then pour the resin & glitter mix into the mold to form a new shell layer on top of the existing clear layer. Is that how it works?


----------



## Bassiklee

That's what I did, yes.  Kind of a two layer shell.  All this practice has been done with Solarez,  which isn't the right stuff.  I'm just getting the process down,  at $57/gallon. Much cheaper than Fotoplast.  Once I'm pretty confident I've got it down,  I'll get Fotoplast and have to adjust times.  The process should be nearly identical.  That's for the shells I'm pouring anyway.  The printed ones with integral bores are made from Detax Luxaprint. I'll only be pouring colors and configs I can't get from Detax.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

This could only mean one thing.......... I’ll definitely be up really really late.


----------



## Bassiklee

Krystalloid,  or??  I've read thru lots of this,  and read you staying you used Krystalloid, and then also gelatin.  Just checking.  Either way,  they look great.  My last Krystalloid pour got a few bubbles. I think I got it too hot,  and poured it too hot and too fast.  Still practicing.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Bassiklee said:


> Krystalloid,  or??  I've read thru lots of this,  and read you staying you used Krystalloid, and then also gelatin.  Just checking.  Either way,  they look great.  My last Krystalloid pour got a few bubbles. I think I got it too hot,  and poured it too hot and too fast.  Still practicing.



This is krystaloid, you have 3 options for perfect krystaloid.

1. Microwave at 10 second intervals until completely liquid, just before boiling but so it only has tiny tiny tiny bubbles, sit and slowly stir as it cools too 120 degrees Fahrenheit. The bubbles disappear as it cools but you literally have to sit and gently still as it goes through the cooling process. 

2. Buy a double boiler which is a pot that fits on another pot with water in it, boil the water it heats the other bowl and slowly still, remove from heat and let cool to 120degrees Fahrenheit. 

3. Buy an agitater that heats and stirs the colloid and and dispense. 

Key is don’t rush, get a beer near you or coffee and sip while you slowly stir. It’s hard not to rush it as you want to get the making shells so quickly. Best technique I learned was to slow down and not rush the steps.


----------



## Bassiklee

I'll stick with the microwave for now.  I like that you can cool it in the fridge and it sets fast.  I've poured shells fifteen minutes after pouring the Krystalloid.


----------



## aussietanker

Bassiklee said:


> medical grade UV resin.



Can you please tell us more about this. what is it, cost and where you get it from?


----------



## aussietanker (Oct 25, 2017)

Shilohsjustice said:


> This is krystaloid, you have 3 options for perfect krystaloid.
> 
> 1. Microwave at 10 second intervals until completely liquid, just before boiling but so it only has tiny tiny tiny bubbles, sit and slowly stir as it cools too 120 degrees Fahrenheit. The bubbles disappear as it cools but you literally have to sit and gently still as it goes through the cooling process.
> 
> ...



1. Can you use the same little pots that are used in beauty salons (to melt the wax for hair removal) to melting the krystaloid? ie same pot as i am thinking of getting to melt the wax in

2. what quantity of krystaloid do you melt to do one pair of earpieces

3. do you coat the impressions with DAP 33 glazing compound *and then* dip it straight into the wax bath *and then *put them into the krystaloid

4. Would any of the sunlight cured UV resins be ok to practice with - see link below for example. I can't see solarex available here in large quantities. Only small quantities like 1 or 2 ounce tubes.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/25-60-10...hash=item1a333838fb:m:m7ZEBbZ6-IC9ACyoPdVC-0Q


----------



## teddyblood (Oct 25, 2017)

tomekk said:


> UV nail - good times



Hi Tomekk. How did you do that art on the facepate? It's beautiful.



Furco said:


> YouTube “swirl nail art”.  Your swirl designs are almost limitless.



Hi Furco. So you made a clear shell and then cover it with the art layer later or you made the art with that method but using color resin and apply to the mold?


----------



## teddyblood

Shilohsjustice said:


> What do you guys think? Do you want any particular color or faceplate material?
> 
> Give me some ideas as to what you want me to do and what you want to see.



Hi Shilohsjustice! I'm really appreciate your input to this forum. It's a great amount of information that a newbie like me could learn.
Personally I'd like to see how did you do the tubing and drilling the tip holes. It seems that pro ciems doesn't have the tube (or tube crosssection after you cut it) outside the tip. I wonder how to hide the tube part at the tip.
Sorry for my English, I don't know how to explain it.


----------



## Bassiklee

aussietanker said:


> 1. Can you use the same little pots that are used in beauty salons (to melt the wax for hair removal) to melting the krystaloid? ie same pot as i am thinking of getting to melt the wax in
> 
> Maybe so.  I guess it would depend on how well they control the temperature.  The microwave works well though.
> 
> ...


----------



## Bassiklee

aussietanker said:


> Can you please tell us more about this. what is it, cost and where you get it from?




Luxaprint, by Detax.  It's their SLA print friendly resin.  I don't buy it.  I have the shells made, and that's what they use.


----------



## Furco

teddyblood said:


> Hi Tomekk. How did you do that art on the facepate? It's beautiful.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Furco. So you made a clear shell and then cover it with the art layer later or you made the art with that method but using color resin and apply to the mold?


 I made clear shells and then applied the swirl art on top.  The art is micro thin and doesn’t add to the overall thickness or modify the fit.  I don’t think I applied a final gloss coat to the shells.  It’s been a very long time since I made those.


----------



## teddyblood

Furco said:


> I made clear shells and then applied the swirl art on top.  The art is micro thin and doesn’t add to the overall thickness or modify the fit.  I don’t think I applied a final gloss coat to the shells.  It’s been a very long time since I made those.



Thank you for the tips. I'll definitely try making one.


----------



## jbr1971

Bassiklee said:


> Luxaprint, by Detax.  It's their SLA print friendly resin.  I don't buy it.  I have the shells made, and that's what they use.



Who do you get to print them? One of the bigger printing services, or someone local?


----------



## teddyblood (Oct 25, 2017)

Has anyone ever try using Acrylic sheet as a faceplate? It's crsytal clear and flat. Will it work?

*Edit : *No. It won't work. Just found the answer out the hard way. Resin and acrylic won't stick together


----------



## Andrumgt

teddyblood said:


> Has anyone ever try using Acrylic sheet as a faceplate? It's crsytal clear and flat. Will it work?
> 
> *Edit : *No. It won't work. Just found the answer out the hard way. Resin and acrylic won't stick together


Glue them with cyano, it will work.Looks for the non-bleaching cyano and do not use activator.You will encounter some problems whenpolishing and laquering, but it will work in the end.Do not use IPA on the plexiglass, it will crack.
Hope that helps.


----------



## Bassiklee

jbr1971 said:


> Who do you get to print them? One of the bigger printing services, or someone local?



Given that I plan to start offering these for sale,  I'm not at liberty to say.


----------



## Furco

Says who?  I used acrylic sheeting for these faceplates.

 


teddyblood said:


> Has anyone ever try using Acrylic sheet as a faceplate? It's crsytal clear and flat. Will it work?
> 
> *Edit : *No. It won't work. Just found the answer out the hard way. Resin and acrylic won't stick together



.


----------



## Bassiklee

Carbon fiber and Kevlar cover plates??   Why yes.


----------



## Furco

Ugh!! I forgot how sticky acrylic nail gel is.  It seems to get everywhere!! Is Fotoplast like this as well?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Furco said:


> Ugh!! I forgot how sticky acrylic nail gel is.  It seems to get everywhere!! Is Fotoplast like this as well?



No Fotoplast isn’t really sticky.


----------



## Bassiklee

Good to know. Just ordered some clear.


----------



## Bassiklee

Just a heads up.  Oaktree lists Fotoplast as a special order, so this didn't come as a huge surprise,  but I just got the email.  Two to four week lead time.


----------



## jbr1971

Bassiklee said:


> Just a heads up.  Oaktree lists Fotoplast as a special order, so this didn't come as a huge surprise,  but I just got the email.  Two to four week lead time.



I got mine from Lightning Enterprises. They usually have good stock.

http://www.lightningenterprises.com/uvmaterials.html


----------



## tomekk

Guys who use the Egger EL2 - do you use two pairs of lamps for transparent shells all the time? Is it the same with solid colours?



Spoiler: Bonus +18



Jarporn


----------



## Bassiklee

jbr1971 said:


> I got mine from Lightning Enterprises. They usually have good stock.
> 
> http://www.lightningenterprises.com/uvmaterials.html




For those prices, they should. Oak tree is MUCH cheaper.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Bassiklee said:


> Just a heads up.  Oaktree lists Fotoplast as a special order, so this didn't come as a huge surprise,  but I just got the email.  Two to four week lead time.



Oak tree is great, I’ve ordered from them several times. Very competitive prices, and yes I always have to wait for Fotoplast from them. They have better prices than Warner Techcare, But Warner Techcare will match the prices. They do for me and they have it in stock.


----------



## Bassiklee

I will keep that in mind. That, or just keep enough in stock here that I don’t run out.


----------



## Im1fan2nv (Oct 28, 2017)

I would like to know if anyone has ran into an ear canal that looks like the one below? If so, how did you handle the nearly 70-80 degree bend? I made it work, but I’d have to say it wasn’t easy.
If you look at image A, if I were to drill the sound bore where it shows the line towards the 2nd bend, it would just go out the back side. The same goes for the 1st bend, if I would drill the line shown, it would just go through as well and I wouldn’t be able to complete the path for the tubing. I used up a good bit of fotoplast getting this done and would like a better solution in case I run into this again.
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## Bassiklee

I would get the canal as hollow as possible,  and make sure the tubes point in the right direction at the end,  securing them with cured resin.  This may include kind of back filling the canal about 1/4" and curing.


----------



## Im1fan2nv

Bassiklee said:


> I would get the canal as hollow as possible,  and make sure the tubes point in the right direction at the end,  securing them with cured resin.  This may include kind of back filling the canal about 1/4" and curing.



I’m not sure I totally follow but if you mean getting as much to come out as possible when pouring it back out, in order for it to be mostly hollow, this is not easy. To get the outer ear thick enough, the inner ear sound port and beyond, was becoming more solid than one would like. This along with static friction and suction effect down inside, not allowing for everything to run all the way back out, I end up with the section from 1st bend to eardrum as basically solid making it very difficult to drill that s-curve. I find it difficult enough to pour excess back out on a fairly straight ear canal. I hope that isn’t too difficult to understand.  Any additional information to help me better understand or achieve this?
Thanks


----------



## GeneBush (Oct 29, 2017)

Im1fan2nv said:


> I’m not sure I totally follow but if you mean getting as much to come out as possible when pouring it back out, in order for it to be mostly hollow, this is not easy. To get the outer ear thick enough, the inner ear sound port and beyond, was becoming more solid than one would like. This along with static friction and suction effect down inside, not allowing for everything to run all the way back out, I end up with the section from 1st bend to eardrum as basically solid making it very difficult to drill that s-curve. I find it difficult enough to pour excess back out on a fairly straight ear canal. I hope that isn’t too difficult to understand.  Any additional information to help me better understand or achieve this?
> Thanks





Im1fan2nv said:


> I’m not sure I totally follow but if you mean getting as much to come out as possible when pouring it back out, in order for it to be mostly hollow, this is not easy. To get the outer ear thick enough, the inner ear sound port and beyond, was becoming more solid than one would like. This along with static friction and suction effect down inside, not allowing for everything to run all the way back out, I end up with the section from 1st bend to eardrum as basically solid making it very difficult to drill that s-curve. I find it difficult enough to pour excess back out on a fairly straight ear canal. I hope that isn’t too difficult to understand.  Any additional information to help me better understand or achieve this?
> Thanks


You can try to find some steel wire with the same diameter, or maybe a bit bigger, as the tubing you intend to use and insert them prior in the mold before “cooking” them for the first time. You should give the wire the exact form so it won’t touch the walls of the canal. Its a bit tricky but it might work


----------



## Bassiklee

You don't have to drill the S curve. Just drill the canal out,  hollow it out.  Then during assembly, put your tubes where you want them,  and fill the canal with Fotoplast and cook it.  My first pair of ears are filled solid.  Watch Robert Kaufman's second diy video,  the one with the short hair. He does this in that video.  If you use drivers with ports,  you can't fill the whole thing solid, but you can still fill the canal.


----------



## tomekk

Where is light located? From the side and bottom or from the side and top? What is your duplicating material? It seems to me that the causes of the problem must be found in uneven light. Correctly balanced light + proper negative form should give you an empty channel practically until the second bend.  


With no offense, but the Robert Kaufman video is full of bad habits.


----------



## Bassiklee

I didn't suggest you build them the way he did.  Only that he also filled the canal.  I'm using Krystalloid and just ordered some Fotoplast.  My previous shells are made with Detax resin,  and filled with either Solarez, nail polish,  or that Magic Glos. Magic Glos works well,  except that it yellows really bad.  That was my first uv resin.


----------



## BigBublik

Single drive on ED 29689. Homemade Etymotic.
Try to make my first headphones. Bought the driver, the cable, shells and connectors. Have a few questions:

Need a tube from the driver to the ear or can be clipped to the driver in the shell?
Need a dampers?
The driver can be connected directly to the cable or need a resistor of 20 ohms?
Maybe I should think twice and replace the driver to RAB-32257
Sorry if questions are stupid


----------



## Im1fan2nv

tomekk said:


> Where is light located? From the side and bottom or from the side and top? What is your duplicating material? It seems to me that the causes of the problem must be found in uneven light. Correctly balanced light + proper negative form should give you an empty channel practically until the second bend.
> 
> 
> With no offense, but the Robert Kaufman video is full of bad habits.



I have one of the nail lights, 4x9watt bulbs 2 top, 1 each side, I use fotoplast, my negative is ballistics gel very clear with maybe 2% bubbles, placed on a rotory stand. If I cure at a time for the end to be hollow, the crus helix doesn’t cure. 

I also agree, Robert has some bad habits, but the process detail is useful. Although filling the cavity isn’t a good idea with vented drivers.


----------



## Bassiklee

Agreed. Filling the cavity with vented drivers is only good if your intent is to ruin the drivers.


----------



## kleymenov (Oct 30, 2017)

BigBublik said:


> Single drive on ED 29689. Homemade Etymotic.
> Try to make my first headphones. Bought the driver, the cable, shells and connectors. Have a few questions:
> 
> Need a tube from the driver to the ear or can be clipped to the driver in the shell?
> ...



RAB-32257 is a full-range driver and I think it's better choise for cheap 1-way earphones. You can use white dampers as an earwax protection...Read the forum, there is a lot of information and manuals, for example from Shilohsjustice


----------



## tomekk (Oct 30, 2017)

Im1fan2nv said:


> placed on a rotory stand. If I cure at a time for the crus helix doesn’t cure.



Side lamps should be at mould height. It seems to me that rotary platforms are something that doesn't work. If the UV zone is ill-lighted, rotary tool will not help.  It seems that the bottom of the mould appears to be underexposed. You have to think about modifying the chamber to make the bottom of the mould more exposed. In your case, only the sides work.

Edit:



Im1fan2nv said:


> the end to be hollow doesn’t cure.



The UV tubes heat up the form, it deforms under the temperature. When air enters the fotoplast, it does not crystallize due to the air. You have to work in such a way as not to heat the mould. Therefore, beer or coffee is useful during breaks


----------



## tomekk

New setup.


----------



## Im1fan2nv

tomekk said:


> New setup.



Man, those look good. Also, thanks for the help on my lamp setup. I’ll work on it soon I hope, work has been stealing your time..


----------



## Im1fan2nv (Nov 1, 2017)

Shilohsjustice said:


> For what it’s worth, cure, pour out excess, cure again double original cure time, pull out and place in glycerin bath cure for 8-12 min (I cure with the hollow end up so UV lights gets down into it.), spend a bit more time in the alcohol wash (I swish it around and take a soft toothbrush and scrub it a bit), make sure to get all the glycerin out, DO NOT WIPE OUT WITH Q-TIP, sometimes q-tips are lightly coated with powder so essentially you are smearing this all over the inside, take out of alchol and let it dry (I set my shells on a set of tweezers so air can get under it), I’ll hit the inside sometimes with a blow dryer insuring all the alcohol is dry, then you can wipe if needed with a q-tip.



I did find out that wiping with Q-Tip and Alcohol made the shell fog up. However, I see that even if I use a paper towel or something else, the alcohol fogs it up by itself. Could there be a reason for this? What % alcohol are you using?

Edit:

After further investigation, the alcohol appears to be too strong. I was using 90% and if I dilute it, no fogging. This will save me a lot of buffing time.  ---

Update: 11-1-17
I don't knwo what's going on. Cured a new shell and tried diluted alcohol, worked fine, then tried 90% and no fogging. Errr. The only thing that was different was the cure in glycerin was for 8 minutes instead of 3(about the same as the original cure times).


----------



## tomekk (Oct 31, 2017)

Tulku1967 said:


> What kind of armature can you find in the Warbler Prelude?
> 
> IEM with 1 armature ... does it exist to voice of a full sound spectrum?



Hmm. I found such a thing. I am not convinced, but it can be BK...?

Warbler
https://imgur.com/HuPXPvE.

Westone Um1
http://i.imgur.com/QuR3U44.png


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Hello all, wanted to post another set I finished up. These are 6-driver clear with mother of pearl plates.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Who says perfectly clear shells can’t be accomplished homebrew style!!!!!


----------



## tomekk

@Shilohsjustice


----------



## Im1fan2nv (Nov 1, 2017)

tomekk said:


> Where is light located? From the side and bottom or from the side and top? What is your duplicating material? It seems to me that the causes of the problem must be found in uneven light. Correctly balanced light + proper negative form should give you an empty channel practically until the second bend.
> 
> 
> With no offense, but the Robert Kaufman video is full of bad habits.



So. This photo shows the area that doesn’t cure if I’m able to obtain a hollow tip.
 





Shilohsjustice said:


> Who says perfectly clear shells can’t be accomplished homebrew style!!!!!



Once again, looks awesome. I’m still trying to get there..


----------



## tomekk

Im1fan2nv said:


> the area that doesn’t cure if I’m able to obtain a hollow tip.



I forgot about one more important thing: the diameter and permeability of the mould. Light still does not reach evenly into the mould centre.


----------



## Squirg

Im finding that blue cures faster than red.  Does anyone have a general breakdown of what colors cure faster/slower?


----------



## tomekk

I am not an expert, but probably it is about:


----------



## Im1fan2nv (Nov 1, 2017)

tomekk said:


> I forgot about one more important thing: the diameter and permeability of the mould. Light still does not reach evenly into the mould centre.



Maybe I've found the problem now. It is thicker than it is in diameter. I used wire at the bottom to give a head start on the audio ports. See Photo.
However, the light is above and to the sides. So if it gets enough UV to cure the canal after the 2nd bend, shouldn't it get enough to cure the area shown above?







Squirg said:


> Im finding that blue cures faster than red.  Does anyone have a general breakdown of what colors cure faster/slower?



I noticed the same thing. Looks like the wavelength chart above may explain it.


----------



## jbr1971

Im1fan2nv said:


> Maybe I've found the problem now. It is thicker than it is in diameter. I used wire at the bottom to give a head start on the audio ports. See Photo.
> However, the light is above and to the sides. So if it gets enough UV to cure the canal after the 2nd bend, shouldn't it get enough to cure the area shown above?



The way I have found to get the best even cure is to place a mirror (one that is slightly bigger than my uv nail dryer) on the table, then the dryer and mold on the mirror.

Hopefully that will help in your situation.


----------



## Furco

Needed a new UV curing station that had a more even spread of light. Other than soldering the 90 leds, this turned out extremely well.  I finally got to use my repurposed ATX power supply for something!  It cures my resin in 4 minutes, solid.  Now time to try and make some shells.


----------



## cjxj

So, I also wanted to try another curing "oven". I have been using a 4 tube florescent nail oven, but struggle with consistency in shell thickness.  I thought maybe something like this might provide a more uniform light source. This is a piece of 4" flue pipe from Home Depot and some stick-on uv led strips (395-405nm) from amazon.  I bought 5 meters for $9 and did not use all of it. The bottom rows of leds are sandwiched between plexiglass.  I poured some shells this evening, but I'm now wondering if this is overkill. Things seem to happen almost too fast. My first shells got way too thick with solid canals, even at just half the time of what I was using with the florescent unit. Was at around 90 seconds with the florescent and 45 secs is too much with this.  Wondering if having lights in the bottom is counter productive. I also was hoping it would run cooler than my florescent nail oven as Gelatin molds don't like heat. However this one also gets a bit warm so I made the cylinder stand off the bottom about 1/8 in and added a fan from a cpu cooler to draw air up through especially for the longer glycerin cooking stage. That keeps it cool, but realistically it's probably not needed with such short exposure times. Hopefully can get it dialed in without wasting too much Fotoplast....


----------



## Bassiklee

Nice work. I'm thinking your bottom lights are cooking the canals.


----------



## Furco

cjxj said:


> So, I also wanted to try another curing "oven". I have been using a 4 tube florescent nail oven, but struggle with consistency in shell thickness.  I thought maybe something like this might provide a more uniform light source. This is a piece of 4" flue pipe from Home Depot and some stick-on uv led strips (395-405nm) from amazon.  I bought 5 meters for $9 and did not use all of it. The bottom rows of leds are sandwiched between plexiglass.  I poured some shells this evening, but I'm now wondering if this is overkill. Things seem to happen almost too fast. My first shells got way too thick with solid canals, even at just half the time of what I was using with the florescent unit. Was at around 90 seconds with the florescent and 45 secs is too much with this.  Wondering if having lights in the bottom is counter productive. I also was hoping it would run cooler than my florescent nail oven as Gelatin molds don't like heat. However this one also gets a bit warm so I made the cylinder stand off the bottom about 1/8 in and added a fan from a cpu cooler to draw air up through especially for the longer glycerin cooking stage. That keeps it cool, but realistically it's probably not needed with such short exposure times. Hopefully can get it dialed in without wasting too much Fotoplast....



I’d agree.  Lights on the bottom are probably overkill. Just use a small mirror instead.


----------



## tomekk

Project 9


----------



## Squirg

tomekk said:


> Project 9



That’s a beautiful thing!  Care to enlighten us on the setup?!  . Sharing is caring!


----------



## Vetseun

I'd appreciate help from the hive mind...

I'm really tempted to try my hand at some DIEMS, but getting a hold of the materials is a real pain as I'm based in South Africa.  The shipping is such a head-ache.

Does anyone have any experience with ordering from mcear.de?  They selling smaller quantities of fotoplast (along with most of the other consumables) and they ship to South Africa.  I'd appreciate some input on whether anyone's used them before.

Second question - I'm also considering trying my hand first on a set of universals, as I'd really like something decent to tide my over until I've worked up the courage for custom moulded ones - I'm however hesitant given the recent universal offerings on Ali etc.  Seems like there are a couple of hybrid triple drivers imminent.  How will a Aliexpress 2xBA 1xDynanic compare to something like GKs in shure shells from Aliexpress?  Is that worth the effort?

Cheers!


----------



## alanwcruz

Finally got something worth showing off!!


----------



## Bassiklee

Nice!  I like the steampunk bling.  My first pair has that too.


----------



## Furco

alanwcruz said:


> Finally got something worth showing off!!


Wow!  Those look great.  How do they sound?  Also, what’s the socket you’re using?  It’s threaded and has multiple pins?


----------



## jbr1971

Furco said:


> Wow!  Those look great.  How do they sound?  Also, what’s the socket you’re using?  It’s threaded and has multiple pins?



That socket looks like the one Unique Melody is using with their new V3s and cables. Not sure what the name of it is, or where to get it.


----------



## alanwcruz

Furco said:


> Wow!  Those look great.  How do they sound?  Also, what’s the socket you’re using?  It’s threaded and has multiple pins?



It has a GK with a HODVTEC in parallel, CI and HODVTEC going out through hypodermic needle tubes (yes my ear canals are small LOL) a red damper on the high's going out a 2mm tube. I get a great sonic orgasm with the sound these deliver!! 

The connectors are threaded and have 4 pins, saw them on a bunch of Jerry Harvey CIEM models and fell in love, they are somewhat expensive, I found them on Aliexpress.


----------



## aussietanker

alanwcruz said:


> The connectors are threaded and have 4 pins, saw them on a bunch of Jerry Harvey CIEM models and fell in love, they are somewhat expensive, I found them on Aliexpress.



They look great. I am having some issues with MMCX connectors failing (either too loose or too tight) 

Can anyone give a link to some really good quality MMCX connectors .... 

and any chance of getting a link (or name of the aliexpress store) to the source on aliexpress for the threaded connectors @alanwcruz


----------



## alanwcruz

aussietanker said:


> They look great. I am having some issues with MMCX connectors failing (either too loose or too tight)
> 
> Can anyone give a link to some really good quality MMCX connectors ....
> 
> and any chance of getting a link (or name of the aliexpress store) to the source on aliexpress for the threaded connectors @alanwcruz



Sure thing, got female connectors here: http://www.lunashops.com/goods.php?id=5460 and male connectors here: https://es.aliexpress.com/item/Ultr...32814063967.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.6ZZlad

happy cooking!


----------



## aussietanker (Nov 2, 2017)

wow ... Thanks for the link, but they are very expensive at approx USD$ 30 each!

Are you happy with them? Is there anywhere that you can buy in bulk quantities (ie a box of 50 etc) without taking out a mortgage? 

I am a bit peeved with the MMCX connectors on the latest expensive (approx $700 earphones that i bought. One side is very loose and falls out constantly, the other side is so tight that its almost impossible to remove the connection once you have plugged the cable into the earphone. So i am trying to find something that is better for when i start to build my own.


----------



## alanwcruz

aussietanker said:


> wow ... Thanks for the link, but they are very expensive at approx USD$ 30 each!
> 
> Are you happy with them? Is there anywhere that you can buy in bulk quantities (ie a box of 50 etc) without taking out a mortgage?
> 
> I am a bit peeved with the MMCX connectors on the latest expensive (approx $700 earphones that i bought. One side is very loose and falls out constantly, the other side is so tight that its almost impossible to remove the connection once you have plugged the cable into the earphone. So i am trying to find something that is better for when i start to build my own.



Very happy with them! They look great!

I too started out trying to use MMCX connectors and had the exact same problems you have, two pin connectors seemed pretty flimsy so I kept away from them until I found these: https://es.aliexpress.com/item/West...32780056629.html?spm=a2g0s.8937460.0.0.rkzczT

They are two pin female sockets but are recessed, this gives them a very strong and unflimsy build quality, no problems with connectors falling out or getting loose, they work great and are not so expensive. I use them on all my builds, except for my premium personal pair that have the JH connectors


----------



## aussietanker

alanwcruz said:


> I use them on all my builds, except for my premium personal pair that have the JH connectors



Awesome. I might do the same  

And thanks for the link to the others. I have added them to my CIEM "Wish List"


----------



## Im1fan2nv

I finally got there. Thanks to everyone for the help!! 
An Extra Shout Out to Tomekk and Shilohsjustice


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Hello all, here is a fun one for you! I did accomplish one thing which I wanted to update everyone on.

These were colored with the Alcohol Ink! I must say I am absolutely impressed with the colorability and the outcome. 

These are triple driver CI-22955 and TWFK wired GK style with red damper on CI and green damper on TWFK. Faceplates are abalone and zebra wood with mmcx connector.


----------



## aussietanker

Shilohsjustice said:


> Hello all, here is a fun one for you! I did accomplish one thing which I wanted to update everyone on.
> 
> These were colored with the Alcohol Ink! I must say I am absolutely impressed with the colorability and the outcome.
> 
> These are triple driver CI-22955 and TWFK wired GK style with red damper on CI and green damper on TWFK. Faceplates are abalone and zebra wood with mmcx connector.



They look absolutely awesome. I think that the colors are fantastic and seem to have a great "depth".  I also love the zebra wood. It's one of my favorite faceplate materials. (not that i have actually made any as yet - just the look i mean)

Just out of interest, where do you buy abalone shell from? Is it a real shell and how do you get it an even thickness? Is it hard to work with. I imagine that the edges would be a bit "crumbly" if you are trying to cut it.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

aussietanker said:


> They look absolutely awesome. I think that the colors are fantastic and seem to have a great "depth".  I also love the zebra wood. It's one of my favorite faceplate materials. (not that i have actually made any as yet - just the look i mean)
> 
> Just out of interest, where do you buy abalone shell from? Is it a real shell and how do you get it an even thickness? Is it hard to work with. I imagine that the edges would be a bit "crumbly" if you are trying to cut it.



One word ☝ Veneer and yes it’s real, it’s your best friend. I use veneer wood as well which is what a lot of the Pros do. Remember when you dome clear Fotoplast/Egger over it looks solid. I buy the abalone in sheets non-backed. Loctite 495 bond beautifully to it, and when I’m doing edges I hold my Dremel and dome stone bit like the picture below. It allows it to put a back angle which allows the “weld line” of Fotoplast to overlap it making a nice seamless edge. 

 

For those waiting on the retro-tutorial going back to the roots of UV Nail Polish I am still waiting for the UV Polish to arrive. 

I am excited to show everyone my latest project, I redesigned my universals to be better ergonomically and with more room for drivers. Below is my 6-driver prototype with a HODVTEC TWFK and SWFK. I still have some tweaking to do but I’m pleased with the results this far. Thank you @piotrus-g for answering my question about the SWFK capetance via his instagram.


----------



## aussietanker

Shilohsjustice said:


> I redesigned my universals to be better ergonomically and with more room for drivers



Thanks for the info re veneers  

What changes did you make to the design of the universal? I think that i read (on here?) that Shure has the "best fit" or "most comfortable" fit/shape/design for a universal. I don't have a shure in my collection of IEM's. Any thoughts on that at all?


----------



## Im1fan2nv (Nov 4, 2017)

alanwcruz said:


> It has a GK with a HODVTEC in parallel, CI and HODVTEC going out through hypodermic needle tubes (yes my ear canals are small LOL) a red damper on the high's going out a 2mm tube. I get a great sonic orgasm with the sound these deliver!!
> .



I tried this in a round about way and although I didn’t listen to them, the FR curve didn’t look so good and my various xover networks didn’t help. I used a GV and added a CI to it in parallel. Did you do anything different?

Oh, and with my recent success on making hollow shells, I tried some color.


----------



## alanwcruz

Im1fan2nv said:


> I tried this in a round about way and although I didn’t listen to them, the FR curve didn’t look so good and my various xover networks didn’t help. I used a GV and added a CI to it in parallel. Did you do anything different?
> 
> Oh, and with my recent success on making hollow shells, I tried some color.




Hi there, I had to go at it for 4 tries before I got the sound right, my first try was joining the tubes on the HOD and the CI to a 2mm tube while using a red filter on the TW to another 2mm tube, this sounded almost identical to just the GK alone. Second try was separating all drivers to individual tubes, one for HOD, one for CI and one for TW all 2 mm tubes, this sounded a bit different but the tubes got squashed and the sound on both CI and HOD got blocked. After this I got myself some 20G needles to use as tubes, this was better, the tubes no longer got squashed but the sound got totally destroyed, I no longer had any treble whatsoever... I was about to give up when I read here that tube diameter affects sound and it's recommended to use small diameters on lows and large diameters on highs.

So the last try was to keep the needle tubes for the HOD and CI and use the 2mm plastic tube on the TW, my god what a difference! Sparkling high's and warm punchy bass, I'm a fan of classic rock so I fired up TIDAL and played Jethro Tull's Hunting Girl (Steven Wilson Remix) [96/24 PCM Stereo], I haven't had earphones ever sound this good! 

I'm in the process of putting together a measuring rig to get some curves, very interested to see how it compares to the good stuff everyone else has been making.


----------



## Einencool

Im1fan2nv said:


> I finally got there. Thanks to everyone for the help!!
> An Extra Shout Out to Tomekk and Shilohsjustice



Hi, can you tell us, what you have changed on your Set Up, or what makes the Difference 
I sometimes have the same Problem especially with the clear material.

Thanks and greetz Chris


----------



## aussietanker

alanwcruz said:


> So the last try was to keep the needle tubes for the HOD and CI and use the 2mm plastic tube on the TW, my god what a difference!



What are needle tubes and where do get them?  I've got super small ear canals as well : (


----------



## alanwcruz

aussietanker said:


> What are needle tubes and where do get them?  I've got super small ear canals as well : (



Hypodermic needles come in different gages, 20G are the thickest ones I could get my hands on, gonna try with these once they arrive: https://es.aliexpress.com/item/12pc...108.1000016.1.129e8ca5IN4SvS&isOrigTitle=true

I saw a couple of guys here using metal tubes, and hypodermic needles was the closest I found to those metal tubes. Anyone care to share where you get your metal tubes?


----------



## jbr1971 (Nov 4, 2017)

alanwcruz said:


> Hypodermic needles come in different gages, 20G are the thickest ones I could get my hands on, gonna try with these once they arrive: https://es.aliexpress.com/item/12pc...108.1000016.1.129e8ca5IN4SvS&isOrigTitle=true
> 
> I saw a couple of guys here using metal tubes, and hypodermic needles was the closest I found to those metal tubes. Anyone care to share where you get your metal tubes?



I did some looking around and found that you can buy various diameters of bendable metal tubing that people use for crafts, etc.

Unfortunately it does not look like there are very many sources for small outer diameter tubing, but the following links should give you an idea of what is available:

https://www.hobbylinc.com/htm/k+s/k+s9870.htm

https://www.hobbylinc.com/htm/k+s/k+s9831.htm

https://www.hobbylinc.com/htm/k+s/k+s9830.htm


----------



## alanwcruz

jbr1971 said:


> I did some looking around and found that you can buy various diameters of bendable metal tubing that people use for crafts, etc.
> 
> Unfortunately it does not look like there are very many sources for 2mm outer diameter tubing, but the following link should give you an idea of what is available:
> 
> https://www.hobbylinc.com/htm/k+s/k+s9870.htm



Problem with copper is that it turns green when in contact with skin and sweat, I didn't want to risk dermititis inside my ear, so that's why I went with hypodermic needles, they are made from surgical grade stainless steel so they are safe for contact with the human body.


----------



## jbr1971

alanwcruz said:


> Problem with copper is that it turns green when in contact with skin and sweat, I didn't want to risk dermititis inside my ear, so that's why I went with hypodermic needles, they are made from surgical grade stainless steel so they are safe for contact with the human body.



Good catch. Never thought of that.


----------



## Im1fan2nv (Nov 5, 2017)

alanwcruz said:


> Hi there, I had to go at it for 4 tries before I got the sound right, my first try was
> the tubes on the HOD and the CI to a 2mm tube while using a red filter on the TW to another 2mm tube, this sounded almost identical to just the GK alone. Second try was separating all drivers to individual tubes, one for HOD, one for CI and one for TW all 2 mm tubes, this sounded a bit different but the tubes got squashed and the sound on both CI and HOD got blocked. After this I got myself some 20G needles to use as tubes, this was better, the tubes no longer got squashed but the sound got totally destroyed, I no longer had any treble whatsoever... I was about to give up when I read here that tube diameter affects sound and it's recommended to use small diameters on lows and large diameters on highs.
> 
> So the last try was to keep the needle tubes for the HOD and CI and use the 2mm plastic tube on the TW, my god what a difference! Sparkling high's and warm punchy bass, I'm a fan of classic rock so I fired up TIDAL and played Jethro Tull's Hunting Girl (Steven Wilson Remix) [96/24 PCM Stereo], I haven't had earphones ever sound this good!
> ...




Wow, using hypodermic needles, now to me, that’s thinking outside the box. I will have to say that when I was trying this combination, like you, it was before I figured out how to use two size ports. Do you use 2mm until the exit them use the needle? (any pics?) Also I have since found copper tubes, but they are coated silver. However, I’m not sure what will happen long term if the silver has a scratch or a cut tube(exposing copper) will do? They als have stainless but not as small as 20G needles. This is where the needles will be a much better choice.
As far as putting together the rigs for measuring, the one for the impedance is pretty easy to do but since low pass xovers just don’t seem to work based on calculations, I don’t find it much useful. I don’t have very expensive equipment for my FR curve but with some luck, what I have works pretty well. I’ve used it to compare my Sure SE535s and SE846s and get curves very close to what I found online for those. I’ll try to post some pics when I get some together. Thanks for the input.

     
I hope this link works 

Tubes:  

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Bra...lgo_pvid=8db16d61-d95f-43ee-a56a-9daaa7151e23





Einencool said:


> Hi, can you tell us, what you have changed on your Set Up, or what makes the Difference
> I sometimes have the same Problem especially with the clear material.
> 
> Thanks and greetz Chris



 It was with help from here but if I had to put my finger on 1 thing, it was getting light to the bottom. I have one of the small nail lights and what I do to accomplish this is turn the light upside down, put a piece of acrylic on top of the lights, set my mold on, place foil over entire bottom opening and cook. I used 40 seconds each way(right side up and upside down) pour out, repeat both for same times. Remove from mold, into glycerin and cook 4 min, move shell around and cook 4 more minutes all right side up, I have a small mirror under the rotating table(pics inserted later). Then place into isopropyl bath. Hope this helps.


----------



## Im1fan2nv

aussietanker said:


> What are needle tubes and where do get them?  I've got super small ear canals as well : (





alanwcruz said:


> Hypodermic needles come in different gages, 20G are the thickest ones I could get my hands on, gonna try with these once they arrive: https://es.aliexpress.com/item/12pc...108.1000016.1.129e8ca5IN4SvS&isOrigTitle=true
> 
> I saw a couple of guys here using metal tubes, and hypodermic needles was the closest I found to those metal tubes. Anyone care to share where you get your metal tubes?





jbr1971 said:


> I did some looking around and found that you can buy various diameters of bendable metal tubing that people use for crafts, etc.
> 
> Unfortunately it does not look like there are very many sources for small outer diameter tubing, but the following links should give you an idea of what is available:
> 
> ...




How about these and just cut off the plastic?

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/20G...lgo_pvid=3616226f-dcbf-45ab-8f9f-fc3c51a82d5d


----------



## Spinnerauto

Hello everyone could you tell me How to join the sound tube with BA driver?


----------



## jbr1971

I have had great success using Bondic (for many different types of applications). It is a liquid plastic that dries using uv light.

After drying it is extremely strong and durable, so make sure you have all of your measurements/parts correct or else it will be a huge pain to take apart.

https://notaglue.com/


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Spinnerauto said:


> Hello everyone could you tell me How to join the sound tube with BA driver?




Loctite 495 works extremely well, I will put a couple drops on wax paper and use a toothpick pick to apply around the BA nozle. It drys quick and I haven’t had any builds come apart since switching over to it.


----------



## Im1fan2nv

Shilohsjustice said:


> Loctite 495 works extremely well, I will put a couple drops on wax paper and use a toothpick pick to apply around the BA nozle. It drys quick and I haven’t had any builds come apart since switching over to it.



That's the same thing I use. You practically have to rip the tube off if you want it removed. Much better than any UV cure material I've tried. They just don't hold. I bought the accelerator as well to speed up cure time.


----------



## tomekk

Small leaks from my obsession:


----------



## Bassiklee

Are those soft tips on the white ones?


----------



## tomekk

Bassiklee said:


> Are those soft tips on the white ones?



Clear canals. At this point they already have hollow channels such as VE or RCM.


----------



## BigBublik

Who use this UV Resin?

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61tuKEoXd+L._SL1016_.jpg


----------



## Furco

BigBublik said:


> Who use this UV Resin?
> 
> https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61tuKEoXd+L._SL1016_.jpg



Do you want to know if it will work for creating shells?  I’d say it would be ok but you’d have to figure out the process given your mold materials and curing light setup.


----------



## BigBublik

Furco said:


> Do you want to know if it will work for creating shells? I’d say it would be ok but you’d have to figure out the process given your mold materials and curing light setup.



Yes, i wanna creating shells.
I'm confused about the price. It is several times cheaper than fotoplast.


----------



## Einencool

Is it also Skin Save? 
That’s why the fotoplast or the other materials for otoplastics are so expensive. 
You should protect it with a layer of lack3 from dreve or something like that


----------



## BigBublik

Built their first IEM on the ED-29689. Used a resistor on the 20Ohm and did not use dampers in the tube. BUT! Is not enough low frequencies.

Which driver in a couple of ED-29689 you recommend? And what a crossover is needed for this pair?


----------



## Spinnerauto

tomekk said:


> Clear canals. At this point they already have hollow channels such as VE or RCM.



How to do the hole like your pics and how to create solid white shell like that.Thank you


----------



## Im1fan2nv

ziixtreme said:


> CI-22955 10 ohm red damper, ED29689 3.3uF green damper, WBFK-30095 0.47 or 0.22 no damper. You can try this. Make 3 bores





BigBublik said:


> Built their first IEM on the ED-29689. Used a resistor on the 20Ohm and did not use dampers in the tube. BUT! Is not enough low frequencies.
> 
> Which driver in a couple of ED-29689 you recommend? And what a crossover is needed for this pair?




The top quote was a few pages back. Addresses ED29689 and low end CI22955. I have not tried this, but you can research here and decide what you’d like to try.


----------



## yomogi

tomekk said:


> Clear canals. At this point they already have hollow channels such as VE or RCM.



Please tell me how to make an opaque shell


----------



## Im1fan2nv

I’m finally almost done with my very 1st pair. Can you believe it, for my mother-in-law. She loves flamingos so I came up with this. No easy but I kept at it and figured out a way. I’d have to say, I’m slightly proud of my construction of a flamingo from loose Swarovski crystals. She doesn’t like the cable going over the ear, so I made it come out the bottom. Not too bad I don’t think


----------



## uoods

First of all thanks to everyone in this thread for such great information on this rabbit hole I just fell into. I did my own impressions and have some SLA printed shells on the way and I'm researching drivers. I've read many hundreds of pages on this thread, but is there any comprehensive comparison/list of drivers and combinations?

I've heard the Knowles GV described as neutral and clinical, which is probably what I'm after (ER4P/S, Beyer DT880, and HD600 are my favorites for example), but I keep running across other combinations from Shiloh and others that sound interesting. Also the Andromeda reverse engineer was mentioned but not really discussed (p428?) piqued my interest.

Right now my plan is to go with GV and play with damping per Luke's suggestions, and also maybe try with Shiloh's setup (p417). Seems the simplest for my first build, but I'm open to suggestion and wisdom from the collective brain here.


----------



## Im1fan2nv (Nov 17, 2017)

uoods said:


> First of all thanks to everyone in this thread for such great information on this rabbit hole I just fell into. I did my own impressions and have some SLA printed shells on the way and I'm researching drivers. I've read many hundreds of pages on this thread, but is there any comprehensive comparison/list of drivers and combinations?
> 
> I've heard the Knowles GV described as neutral and clinical, which is probably what I'm after (ER4P/S, Beyer DT880, and HD600 are my favorites for example), but I keep running across other combinations from Shiloh and others that sound interesting. Also the Andromeda reverse engineer was mentioned but not really discussed (p428?) piqued my interest.
> 
> Right now my plan is to go with GV and play with damping per Luke's suggestions, and also maybe try with Shiloh's setup (p417). Seems the simplest for my first build, but I'm open to suggestion and wisdom from the collective brain here.



I found this some time ago and it gives some insight to COTS packages and possibly stir up some ideas on what to try. My 1st were a lot of trials and ultimately I ended up with GV’s. I have Shure 215s, 535s, and 846s to compare with. I obtained at least as good as the 535s if not better. Most people go with green and red dampers but I ended up with green and brown. Brown in place of the green and green in place of the red.

PS,
You joined in 2003 and are just starting with your own CIEMs? That’s some thorough reading... Just kidding, if you don’t already know, this group of guys (gals?) are very helpful and I have yet to find anyone unwilling to share their knowledge.
 
.


----------



## cjxj

uoods said:


> First of all thanks to everyone in this thread for such great information on this rabbit hole I just fell into. I did my own impressions and have some SLA printed shells on the way and I'm researching drivers. I've read many hundreds of pages on this thread, but is there any comprehensive comparison/list of drivers and combinations?
> 
> I've heard the Knowles GV described as neutral and clinical, which is probably what I'm after (ER4P/S, Beyer DT880, and HD600 are my favorites for example), but I keep running across other combinations from Shiloh and others that sound interesting. Also the Andromeda reverse engineer was mentioned but not really discussed (p428?) piqued my interest.
> 
> Right now my plan is to go with GV and play with damping per Luke's suggestions, and also maybe try with Shiloh's setup (p417). Seems the simplest for my first build, but I'm open to suggestion and wisdom from the collective brain here.


---
You can't go wrong with your original plan, including Luke's suggestions for damping. It will be an easy first build with great results and you'll enjoy listening to them.  I have a set like it and it's sort of my CIEM audio "reference"  point that I don't fiddle with. I like to compare it with my other builds and tuning efforts. I don't know if this makes sense AT ALL to anyone else, but sometimes after playing with a bunch of variables, I'll plug them back in to kind of bring my ears and brain back to something I know.


----------



## Einencool

I‘ve got a question about the Knowles GV.
I‘ve build a Pair of CIEM with them, but I have the Problem, that the bass is much lower than on my Pair with GK driver.
So I‘ve build another Pair with the GV, and opened a extra port for the bass. But the same here, the bass is much lower than the GK.
I thought, that the bass was better, before I put the Faceplate on. Could that be the reason? Because of the Vents from the GV?

And how do you solder the GV? There are 4 solder pads on the back. The datasheet says (when the tweeter is on left) that the lower left is „-„ and the lower right is „+“.
The pads are altough crossed, and I don‘t understand the „Note 1“ in the Datasheet, which means:
A positive going voltage at terminal 2 (+), relative to terminal 1 (-), causes a decrease in pressure at the sound outlet.

Thats sounds like, when you put + to + and - to -, the pressure will be lower 

Can you help me? Thanks in advance
Chris


----------



## Bassiklee

This is a blown up section from the PDF of the GV


----------



## Einencool

Hi @Bassiklee 

Thank you for your reply.
I know that Datasheet, and what I wrote is the „Note“ in the upper right part of the Datasheet.

I‘ve compared my two builds with the GV drivers. At the Second try I opened the extra bass port, but the FR curve shows no higher bass

Ups, I see that I‘ve named them Knwoles 
The orange and green ist the normal GV
And the lower ones are the GV with extra opened bass port...

I don‘t know, why the green one has a lower bass, maybe my measurement was not right, I got it the last days, and it was my first try...


----------



## cyph3r

Einencool said:


> Hi @Bassiklee
> 
> Thank you for your reply.
> I know that Datasheet, and what I wrote is the „Note“ in the upper right part of the Datasheet.
> ...



Hi Einencool

lower frequency response measurements accuracy / precision and repeatability will also depend on the volume of the cavity of your coupler. Take care that your measurment setup is reproducible and that the cavity volume is not too large.

low frequency response will also vary with acoustic tube diameter. Try smaller tube diameters.

Viel Erfolg.


----------



## Einencool

cyph3r said:


> Hi Einencool
> 
> low frequency response will also vary with acoustic tube diameter. Try smaller tube diameters.
> 
> Viel Erfolg.



Danke 

All the Drivers have ONE 2mm inner diameter tube for High and Low together. 
And the tubing length should be also very similar .

So should I use for the Low and the High each one own tube?
My Ear Canals are not the biggest, so I will have to try, to get the two tubes in.

On Monday I will go to an audiologist, to make a new pair of impressions, and then I will try to make the end of the ear canal almost straight, to insert the tubing easyier

Greets
Chris


----------



## cyph3r

Einencool said:


> Danke
> 
> All the Drivers have ONE 2mm inner diameter tube for High and Low together.
> And the tubing length should be also very similar .
> ...



Morgen Chris, 
try a slightly smaller tube diameter (maybe 1.4 -1.5 mm) as alternatice and some different lengths. If you dont get the desired frequency response, I would recommend to use separate tubes.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Hello all, great news!! The UV topcoat needed for the retro-tutorial has arrived so I will begin putting together the material list and tools I will be using for the build. I plan on this being an all inclusive start to finish tutorial so it will certainly take sometime to properly fit together. I’m hoping to also upload some video with commentary to better understand each process at the suggestion of @Furco, so stay tuned.


----------



## aussietanker

Shilohsjustice said:


> Hello all, great news!! The UV topcoat needed for the retro-tutorial has arrived so I will begin putting together the material list and tools I will be using for the build. I plan on this being an all inclusive start to finish tutorial so it will certainly take sometime to properly fit together. I’m hoping to also upload some video with commentary to better understand each process at the suggestion of @Furco, so stay tuned.


Really looking forward to this!


----------



## Einencool

Shilohsjustice said:


> Hello all, great news!! The UV topcoat needed for the retro-tutorial has arrived so I will begin putting together the material list and tools I will be using for the build. I plan on this being an all inclusive start to finish tutorial so it will certainly take sometime to properly fit together. I’m hoping to also upload some video with commentary to better understand each process at the suggestion of @Furco, so stay tuned.



Hi Shilo,

Could you also show, how you trim the impressions?
I got my new impressions and trimmed them slightly to make a „acrylic master“ impression . 
Then I will try to trim them instead of the silicon impression...

How long do you think, will your tutorial take until it is ready to post 
I think I willl wait until you get it done


----------



## CCX191

Have been lurking around here for a while and I've finally made my first pair yesterday 






I have also documented my process in my Instructables! which I hope is able to help others 

Here: https://www.instructables.com/id/Make-Custom-in-Ear-Monitors-DIY-CIEM/


----------



## sanekn

Sweet job, mate! 

I've also made a pair some days ago...


----------



## ForceMajeure (Nov 24, 2017)

any of you guys that want to make alcohol inks and are in the US... hum Shilo hmm humm...check out that deal on amazon https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0717B6VVB/?m=ATVPDKIKX0DER
currently 30usd for 72sharpies (of course you don't need that much but it's a good deal and you have a greater range of optional colors)

making alcohol inks is rather easy. there are a few guides on youtube. basically you need alcohol, a few bottles and some sharpies...it is way cheaper than buying the regular and you have great quality alcohol ink.


----------



## BigBublik

Please rate the quality of the casts. Was doing the first time.
And please draw lines as i need to cut it.


----------



## sanekn

Hello, seems not enough matter on the stomp of the impression. However the canal part looks great to me.

But waiting for specialists to answer


----------



## ForceMajeure (Nov 27, 2017)

pictures lack other angles. you should be ok though
if you don't want to take a risk cutting the bottoms. cut roughly the extra part from the side and sand the bottom of each impressions so you have the same height on each. sand one then sand the other and check the height. then you should be able to make small adjustments on the go.

another cut I wasn't able to show is the cymba part.
 

it should look like that after you cut it and shape it


----------



## AndrewOkie

What do you think about my impressions? https://imgur.com/a/9l73o Im not sure how to cut cymba part. By the way, did I mark out the excess material correctly?


----------



## ForceMajeure (Nov 28, 2017)

AndrewOkie said:


> What do you think about my impressions? https://imgur.com/a/9l73o Im not sure how to cut cymba part. By the way, did I mark out the excess material correctly?


They look ok, you could use them as is if they are comfortable to you. you could get away without cutting that part necessarily. although you have to take into consideration that this is where the connector will sit and how they will feel with a cable attached...f.e the further they are, the bigger the loop with the cable will be if you will.
personally I would shape that part to be slightly "straighter"  with the dremel but I wouldn't cut it (this is a drastic procedure at that stage that I wouldn't do). you don't want to change too much in there as you already have a nice place as where the connector will sit.


----------



## Einencool

Hi Guys,

I‘ve got a question about some Bluetooth cable Adapter. 
I‘ve got a Adapter with some cheap earbuds. I‘ll cut the Earbuds and would like to take the cable for my GK or GV IEM. But I‘ve the Problem, that the Volume is much to high for the CIEM. On Level 1 of 15 on the iPhone it is very loud. So I would like to put a resistor into the cable of the Adapter, but I don‘t have a idea, where to start with it. And because I must buy them Online, I‘d like to know, which resistors I should buy and what a wattage they should be...

Thank you in advance, and I‘m looking forward for Shilos Guide 
Greets Chris


----------



## buffect (Dec 4, 2017)

I am making silicone custom earphones.

and my works.





























It's a wireless bluetooth silicone iem.











This video is for wireless silicone custom earphone.























The one at the center is the hybrid. 1dd + 1ba


----------



## buffect

Einencool said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> I‘ve got a question about some Bluetooth cable Adapter.
> I‘ve got a Adapter with some cheap earbuds. I‘ll cut the Earbuds and would like to take the cable for my GK or GV IEM. But I‘ve the Problem, that the Volume is much to high for the CIEM. On Level 1 of 15 on the iPhone it is very loud. So I would like to put a resistor into the cable of the Adapter, but I don‘t have a idea, where to start with it. And because I must buy them Online, I‘d like to know, which resistors I should buy and what a wattage they should be...
> ...


----------



## buffect

Einencool said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> I‘ve got a question about some Bluetooth cable Adapter.
> I‘ve got a Adapter with some cheap earbuds. I‘ll cut the Earbuds and would like to take the cable for my GK or GV IEM. But I‘ve the Problem, that the Volume is much to high for the CIEM. On Level 1 of 15 on the iPhone it is very loud. So I would like to put a resistor into the cable of the Adapter, but I don‘t have a idea, where to start with it. And because I must buy them Online, I‘d like to know, which resistors I should buy and what a wattage they should be...
> ...




Do you want to make it like this?


----------



## BigBublik

buffect said:


> I am making silicone custom earphones.
> 
> and my works.



What silicone are you using?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Hey guys and gals, I have been working on the tutorial as well as been working a busy schedule. I hope to have it done over the next couple weeks. 

Stay tuned.


----------



## faiwinnie

buffect said:


> I am making silicone custom earphones.
> 
> and my works.
> 
> ...





buffect said:


> Do you want to make it like this?





buffect said:


> I am making silicone custom earphones.
> 
> and my works.
> 
> ...



want to know more pls


----------



## Einencool

buffect said:


> Do you want to make it like this?



Yes, thats exactly what I want to do 

And Respect for your Work, it seems very pretty.

I really like the plugs for your LG Earbuds. I‘ve done it with acrylic, but it‘s hard to make the Soundport from the Eartip to the speaker. How do you do this? Can you take the LG Headphones off and make the hole for the Sound?

Greets Chris


----------



## buffect (Dec 4, 2017)

Einencool said:


> Yes, thats exactly what I want to do
> 
> And Respect for your Work, it seems very pretty.
> 
> ...



----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you for the compliment.

NO, the tip on the LG earphone is also silicone.
If you made it of acrylic, earphones would not be attached.

As for the replacement of the Bluetooth jack,
1. Find the resistor value you want. (you can use resistor of normal size.)
2. Purchase a chip size resistor.
3. Solder the resistor as shown in the picture and fill the UV  liquid resin.


----------



## buffect

If you come to my blog, you can see more my works.

http://blog.naver.com/buffect_co/221153943088


----------



## MuZo2

Shilohsjustice said:


> Hey guys and gals, I have been working on the tutorial as well as been working a busy schedule. I hope to have it done over the next couple weeks.
> 
> Stay tuned.


I think we can start a new thread with that great post. This thread has become too long and for new people joining the hobby will be hard to track the information.


----------



## cyph3r

MuZo2 said:


> I think we can start a new thread with that great post. This thread has become too long and for new people joining the hobby will be hard to track the information.



Fully agreed


----------



## BigBublik

Made shell of UV Resin.
After finishing they become matter.
How to restore the gloss?


----------



## Bassiklee

Either Fotoplast Lak3, or the Egger equivalent.  I find that the Egger stays pretty clear,  while the Fotoplast version yellows quite a bit.


----------



## BigBublik

No, no.
I polished the shells and they became muddy.
Want to make back glossy.


----------



## Bassiklee

See above.  Those two are the answer.


----------



## Dulalala

Sorry if it's been mentioned, but has anyone tried custom 3D printing a housing for a dynamic driver so it can connect to an acoustic tubing?


----------



## Im1fan2nv

Dulalala said:


> Sorry if it's been mentioned, but has anyone tried custom 3D printing a housing for a dynamic driver so it can connect to an acoustic tubing?



There is plenty to read. Search “3D Print” Then do a browser find or find on page “shell” or similar 
I don’t have input because I don’t have a 3D printer so I skipped those.


----------



## Dulalala (Dec 12, 2017)

Im1fan2nv said:


> There is plenty to read. Search “3D Print” Then do a browser find or find on page “shell” or similar
> I don’t have input because I don’t have a 3D printer so I skipped those.



Thanks for the response but I think you're misunderstood what I meant. I'm not talking about 3D printing the shell of the IEM, I meant something like this...



ForceMajeure said:


> I know that Kumitate-labs also uses that technique for their kumitate REF, they use a 3d printed enclosure to mount both drivers facing each others. Kumitate also have a special tube in addition to the tube going to the nozzle, that allows them to control the pressure so their is no driver flex upon installation.
> 
> Kumitate use their solution for Bass, JH use it for mids.
> 
> Nevertheless it's very interesting.



I did try searching, but I'm not sure if I used the wrong keywords or of it hasn't been talked about much as I couldn't really find much about it.


----------



## Im1fan2nv

Dulalala said:


> Thanks for the response but I think you're misunderstood what I meant. I'm not talking about 3D printing the shell of the IEM, I meant something like this...
> 
> 
> 
> I did try searching, but I'm not sure if I used the wrong keywords or of it hasn't been talked about much as I couldn't really find much about it.



I understood, but wasn’t sure if you had used the search or not. Some people may not be aware of the search and I was just trying to point out it’s possibility and give a couple key words. On the other hand, some are in a hurry and don’t have time to search too that’s why I mentioned that I just skipped those post because I don’t have a 3D printer. ☹️ I also know that it’s seemed to slow down around here lately and was just trying to give my $.02. I really like the idea of printing something like this though. I’ve attempted to make a few molds to use fotoplast for this same thing but wasn’t successful yet. I hope someone else has your same interest and discussion starts. Good luck : cheers:


----------



## Dulalala

Im1fan2nv said:


> I understood, but wasn’t sure if you had used the search or not. Some people may not be aware of the search and I was just trying to point out it’s possibility and give a couple key words. On the other hand, some are in a hurry and don’t have time to search too that’s why I mentioned that I just skipped those post because I don’t have a 3D printer. ☹️ I also know that it’s seemed to slow down around here lately and was just trying to give my $.02. I really like the idea of printing something like this though. I’ve attempted to make a few molds to use fotoplast for this same thing but wasn’t successful yet. I hope someone else has your same interest and discussion starts. Good luck : cheers:



Ah alright. I might try to print some anyways to see how well they would work.


----------



## Firedrops (Dec 14, 2017)

Dulalala said:


> Thanks for the response but I think you're misunderstood what I meant. I'm not talking about 3D printing the shell of the IEM, I meant something like this...
> 
> 
> 
> I did try searching, but I'm not sure if I used the wrong keywords or of it hasn't been talked about much as I couldn't really find much about it.



Yes, this is actually trivial from a CAD perspective. There are taobao sellers selling these in either plastic or metal (can't find links on whim, but you can probably find them in related products). I could re-create the CAD models for you if you want, it'll only take a minute or 2, I'll need your specific driver's dimensions and printer's precision. I personally don't like using them because they add quite a bit of bulk, and can make 9.2mm/10mm drivers impossible to fit into shells. Consider using wider heatshrinks to adapt them down, instead.

+ a shameless plug for my SE846 structure, since it's my go-to DIY shell for comfort and internal space. Shoot me a PM if you want the stl/sldprt files to modify/print them yourself.


----------



## Dulalala

Firedrops said:


> Yes, this is actually trivial from a CAD perspective. There are taobao sellers selling these in either plastic or metal (can't find links on whim, but you can probably find them in related products). I could re-create the CAD models for you if you want, it'll only take a minute or 2, I'll need your specific driver's dimensions and printer's precision. I personally don't like using them because they add quite a bit of bulk, and can make 9.2mm/10mm drivers impossible to fit into shells. Consider using wider heatshrinks to adapt them down, instead.
> 
> + a shameless plug for my SE846 structure, since it's my go-to DIY shell for comfort and internal space. Shoot me a PM if you want the stl/sldprt files to modify/print them yourself.



Thanks for the offer! However I was just curious what type of filament people were using for them.


----------



## Firedrops

Dulalala said:


> Thanks for the offer! However I was just curious what type of filament people were using for them.



Those taobao guys are most likely doing injection moulding, looks like pvc but I'm not sure.

For personal prints, it's easiest to use proper ABS filaments that easily get vapour smoothed by acetone. PLA is a far more common filament, but it takes much more exotic and dangerous chemicals to vapour smooth. Vapour smoothing helps fill in the boundaries properly, so sound doesn't leak out through the gaps between the printing layers.


----------



## Makahl (Dec 15, 2017)

Hey guys, I'm bit concerned about what would be the best method in a single BA project. I made this to try to help:







Looking to the 1x2mm tube it looks like it will decrease the ba's nozzle diameter and I was wondering if that would affect bass response, so I'd use the "ring" version to create a perfect seal and not changing the BA's diameter. But that's just random thoughts, any advice would be really helpful! Thanks!


----------



## Rabid86

Hello! I am quite new to this forum but I have been lurking about for a while.

I am building a pair of in-ear monitors using the Knowles SR-series of balanced armature drivers: http://www.knowles.com/eng/content/download/5775/92032/version/3/file/SR-32453-000.pdf

If you can see in the frequency response, it has quite a nasty peak at 3kHz. I have tried reducing it with acoustic filtering (both sonion and knowles dampers), but I have not found a good way to fix just that peak. If anyone has any suggestion of any material or other ways that can filter it I would be more than happy to know!

Since it was not so easy to fix it using the acoustic filtering I instead turned to electrical filtering and found some interesting pages such as this one: http://www.learningaboutelectronics.com/Articles/Notch-filter-calculator.php

I used the "Narrowband Twin-T Notch Filter" and tried to calculate the 3kHz formula. Though, I did not have the correct values of the capacitors, I used 22nF for C and 68nF for C2. I used small ceramic capacitors for this task, and the resistors are rated at 0.25W, if that makes any difference.

I made a crude drawing of how I connected the components outside of the shell: https://i.imgur.com/wRcmCiS.jpg

When I tested this filter, it turned out very good! The problem, which is a big one, is that it drops to probably a 1/4 of the volume. So, my question is: Do I have any way of keeping the volume at a good level but still using a passive notch-filter? These in-ear monitors are only supposed to be used with a smartphone, not an external amp.

Are the components that I used to hard to drive for the phone? Is there any other way of making a notch-filter that I seem to have missed? Did I connect something in the wrong way? Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Thank you very much!

/Anders


----------



## ForceMajeure (Dec 17, 2017)

Rabid86 said:


> Hello! I am quite new to this forum but I have been lurking about for a while.
> 
> I am building a pair of in-ear monitors using the Knowles SR-series of balanced armature drivers: http://www.knowles.com/eng/content/download/5775/92032/version/3/file/SR-32453-000.pdf
> 
> ...


I am no expert but just looking at the values of resistors you chose (kilo ohms). it's no surprise you got such dramatic change in spl output.
My advice is that you should use lower resistors values (<50ohms if possible) and calculate the needed capacitors in relation to those.

PS:
also that "nasty spike" as you call it is there for a reason. it's there to compensate for the bypass of the pinna when using iems (the human ear pinna act as a naural amplifier of mid frequencies in that range). it's a debatable subject as how much should the compensation be and where as it is different for every individual in regard to their ear morphology...


----------



## Rabid86

Thank you very much for the reply! I was also thinking that the high values was being problematic, maybe also the wattage rate of the resistors might make a difference? 
I do not have the access, nor the tools to preform soldering with surface-mounted components, otherwise they would have been my choice and probably the rating of those would have been far less.

I am trying to figure out how to calculate what they did in the link (http://www.learningaboutelectronics.com/Articles/Notch-filter-calculator.php) but I am not at all good with math. Trying to calculate it myself gives me totally different results.
As you say, I was thinking of doing 1/10th of the values, but maybe 1/20th would be better (ie. 100Ω and 50Ω instead of 2KΩ and 1kΩ). Would the capacitor values be a higher value or lower when lowering the resistor-values? I don't know exactly how I would compensate.

For me personally, I don't really understand the point of the compensation of the pinna. Maybe it is my ears, but I am very sensitive at around 2500Hz up to even 5000-6000Hz. Everything sounds easily sibilant to me, especially in-ear monitors. 
This driver is too painful to listen to like it is at the moment, even with an acoustic filter. So an electronical filter would be the best option, to preserve the rest of the frequencies and the sparkling highs.

Again, thank you very much for the reply! Any tips is greatly appreciated!

/Anders


----------



## Dulalala

Rabid86 said:


> Would the capacitor values be a higher value or lower when lowering the resistor-values? I don't know exactly how I would compensate.



If resistance decreases, capacitance increases.


----------



## Rabid86

Thank you very much! Now I just need to take out the breadboard and start testing. 

/Anders


----------



## ForceMajeure (Dec 20, 2017)

I haven't check the calculations but my guess is that instead of using capacitors in the nF range you should use capacitors in the uF or mF range. this would make your resistors go down to the "inverted range" like instead of Kohms to ohms.
The wattage of a resistor aka power rating is not important in your case. it's just a number indicating the wattage it can endure before failure (heat dissipation). a thing to consider for certain applications but not with iems current.


----------



## Rabid86

Thank you very much for the input! I have bought capacitors in the uF range now, hopefully that will be good enough. I also managed to figure out how to calculate the values of the resistors and capacitors so now I am back on track.
It is good to know that the wattage doesn't affect anything, so hopefully this time I can make it work. I will let all of you know how it is going.

I apologize for the late reply, I have been working alot, both at work and non-stop with the headphones. In the process I found that the best acoustic filter was three thin sheets of toilet paper. It sounds amazing now and may not be much need for an electrical filter. However, is there anything that can replace the toilet-paper with a more durable and resistant fabric, like cotton or something similar? But still retain the shape of the sound like the toilet-paper has? I will research on the rest of the forum here aswell to see if I can find an answer.

Thanks again!

/Anders


----------



## leapof

Hi guys! 
First time poster here!  so after a few failed attempts at building my first universals I've finally come up with something acceptable look wise and that sounds good! I used the KZ ZST as a template for the sell and I fitted a GQ with a white damper halfway through the tube inside. It might be juuuust a tiny bit too harsh for my ears but I'm very happy with the overall sound (quite detailed, bass is present!).

https://imageshack.com/a/img924/9173/rguqCs.jpg

P.S. Thanks everyone for your contributions to this forum!! I learnt a lot reading all the posts and enjoyed your creations, great stuff!!


----------



## bartzky

Thank you Santa!


----------



## Dulalala

Does anyone have an estimate on how much liquid of Fotoplast it takes to make a pair of hollow CIEM?


----------



## ForceMajeure

Dulalala said:


> Does anyone have an estimate on how much liquid of Fotoplast it takes to make a pair of hollow CIEM?


You need about ~10-12ml to be able to fill them one after the other (curing one at a time using the same resin) but maybe a bit more also if you plan on securing everything with it and doing the faceplates. you will have a bit resin left from those 10ml at the end of the process. but you need that amount at least to be able to fill them for curing.

Of course that if everything goes according to plan...


----------



## Dulalala

ForceMajeure said:


> You need about ~10-12ml to be able to fill them one after the other (curing one at a time using the same resin) but maybe a bit more also if you plan on securing everything with it and doing the faceplates. you will have a bit resin left from those 10ml at the end of the process. but you need that amount at least to be able to fill them for curing.
> 
> Of course that if everything goes according to plan...



Right ok. Thanks for the info! Merry Christmas too!


----------



## aratj

start my ciems

use dreve fotoplast


----------



## kn0ppers

For how long did you cure the Resin and what kind of lamp did you use?


----------



## aratj

kn0ppers said:


> For how long did you cure the Resin and what kind of lamp did you use?


about 40 sec.
use
https://ru.aliexpress.com/store/pro...108.1000016.1.1e74a966MJY4D9&isOrigTitle=true


----------



## aussietanker (Dec 28, 2017)

aratj said:


> about 40 sec.
> use
> https://ru.aliexpress.com/store/pro...108.1000016.1.1e74a966MJY4D9&isOrigTitle=true



I am quite curious to know how well that LED lamp cures the mix. How do you find it? Does it cure "all the way through"?

1. I have been saving to get a "professional" grade curing lamp from somewhere like Oaktree products, but they are several 100 dollars as opposed to $22 ... Is it worth spending the extra to get the professional grade UV light? Does it make any difference over a simple one like this? I would really appreciate the advice of ppl who have used both, especially those that have upgraded to one of the 'professional' grade units... and those that have only used simpler LED units like this one. Is there any significant difference in the outcome?  

2. Also, most of the nail curing lights seem to have buttons for 15, 30, 60 second operation. Is not being able to select a specific and precise time an issue?

3. And the required wavelength is > wavelength is 360nm > 405nm. Is that correction? 

4. Is higher wattage better? 

Appreciate the response


----------



## andr3wy (Dec 28, 2017)

Hello! First post here.

I'm sorry if this has been asked before, but how would one go about replicating JH audio's freqphase?
Also, any tips on wiring a crossover?

I want to try to build a Layla clone.

Also, does the layla use two SWFKs up top or TWFKs?

And, the filters are green for the low and mid, none for the top correct?

Thanks!


----------



## Pete64

Happy New Year all you Headfiers!
I just recieved my pair of GV-32830. I thought it was the black dots to be removed for increased bass? Im confused as the other side has two holes also that is covered with some tape. Anyone knows for sure about this, i really dont want to tamper any more than i have to with those babies


----------



## Pete64

Using Shilos (which is a good one) or any others recipie for gel
I got a good tip for anyone that (like me) get a lot of microbubbles in gel when reheating, if you did’nt already know.

Alcohol is tha crap to get rid of bubbles! When it’s heated just spray some kind of alcohol over the surface, it does’nt take much.
I used an aftershave bottle first time, that i did’nt like alot anyway  and just one spray made them all go away like pure magic.

Rgds
Pete


----------



## aratj (Jan 3, 2018)

Finished


----------



## Puggie

Epic thread and some awesome work here. I'd like to have a play with a basic/simple BA build, something along the lines of etymotic or finals designs, a single driver bullet type of IEM. What BA drivers should I be looking at for as full range as a single driver can be?

Many thanks


----------



## aratj (Jan 4, 2018)

etymotic ER-4S / P / B - Knowles ED-29689


----------



## Im1fan2nv

Can anyone help me with the preparation/process for making a faceplate out of wood? Do I coat the entire piece with foto then attach it with foto? My friend said he would like a satin finish that is stained. Would this cause an issue with attachment to the shell?
Thanks


----------



## ForceMajeure

Im1fan2nv said:


> Can anyone help me with the preparation/process for making a faceplate out of wood? Do I coat the entire piece with foto then attach it with foto? My friend said he would like a satin finish that is stained. Would this cause an issue with attachment to the shell?
> Thanks


Just a thought, but you could make a thin faceplate out of resin and glue the wood on that acrylic plate with super glue or gorilla glue. Then attach that plate to the shell using the resin as usual...after that you are free to sand it and curve it so it blends with the shell almost seamlessly.
Regarding the lacquer coating, you'll need to lacquer at least after the joint part and use a different buffing and/or lacquering technique for the wood if you want a satin finish. I bet a few guys here have other ideas.


----------



## aratj

created new shells for GV


----------



## Rabid86

Hello guys! I am back with some news about the progress. It has not turned out that great with the electronic filter. I have tried many different combinations of capacitor values and resistor values to make the best notch-filter.
When I tried different combinations on a breadboard, I found a great combination of a highpass-filter and a lowpass-filter. They work great independently! But combining them to make the notch-filter function is not working, no matter what I try...
I can only hear the lowpass-filter working, the high frequencies are not coming through at all.

So what exactly is the problem here? I have made a diagram of how I have connected these aswell as taken a picture of how it looks.
I know it is very crappily made, but it is just to try it out to see that it is even working. But since it is not working, I want to be able to know exactly where the problem lies.



 




Did I connect something in a bad way? Did I use the wrong components? Or did I miss something?

I tried using cheramic capacitors before, but they sucked away a huge part of the volume, it was barely any sound left.

Any suggestions are more than welcome!

Thank you!

/Anders


----------



## Dulalala (Jan 6, 2018)

Rabid86 said:


> Hello guys! I am back with some news about the progress. It has not turned out that great with the electronic filter. I have tried many different combinations of capacitor values and resistor values to make the best notch-filter.
> When I tried different combinations on a breadboard, I found a great combination of a highpass-filter and a lowpass-filter. They work great independently! But combining them to make the notch-filter function is not working, no matter what I try...
> I can only hear the lowpass-filter working, the high frequencies are not coming through at all.
> 
> ...



Why is there a three way parallel between the resistor, capacitor and transducer?


----------



## Rabid86

Thank you for the reply!  I don't fully understand these things, I am very bad with electronics in general. I was just following this page and the diagram they have there. Maybe I connect everything wrong... http://www.learningaboutelectronics.com/Articles/Notch-filter-calculator.php#answer1

How am I supposed to connect these?


----------



## Dulalala (Jan 6, 2018)

Rabid86 said:


> Thank you for the reply!  I don't fully understand these things, I am very bad with electronics in general. I was just following this page and the diagram they have there. Maybe I connect everything wrong... http://www.learningaboutelectronics.com/Articles/Notch-filter-calculator.php#answer1
> 
> How am I supposed to connect these?



Removed*


----------



## Rabid86

Dulalala said:


> You want a band pass filter right? You can just wire a low pass filter into a high pass filter or vice versa.



I want a band-stop filter. To notch out a frequency between 2kHz and 5kHz. I can use the lowpass-filter okay by itself, like I connected it in my diagram. And I can use the highpass-filter okay aswell by itself, also like on the diagram. But when I connect both of them together like in the pictures, it only makes the low frequencies come through. I want it to carve out the "bad" frequencies that I want to tame as much as possible. I can show a measurement of the driver without any filtering and you will understand why I want to remove this.


----------



## Dulalala

Rabid86 said:


> I want a band-stop filter. To notch out a frequency between 2kHz and 5kHz. I can use the lowpass-filter okay by itself, like I connected it in my diagram. And I can use the highpass-filter okay aswell by itself, also like on the diagram. But when I connect both of them together like in the pictures, it only makes the low frequencies come through. I want it to carve out the "bad" frequencies that I want to tame as much as possible. I can show a measurement of the driver without any filtering and you will understand why I want to remove this.



Oh right, ok if you want a band stop then just wire the low pass filter in parallel with the high pass filter.


----------



## Rabid86

The thing is, I thought I already did the same as on this diagram: 






I don't exactly know how I am supposed to connect the components in the right order... 
What is the difference between mine and this exactly?


----------



## Dulalala (Jan 6, 2018)

Rabid86 said:


> The thing is, I thought I already did the same as on this diagram:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well I honestly have no clue what you did. You put a resistor in parallel with a capacitor, then connected them together into another resistor in parallel with another capacitor and the transducer.

It's not the prettiest or neatest but you can just follow what's below. It's basically the same thing as what you just posted above, just in an easier way to understand I guess?


----------



## Rabid86

That is exactly what I needed! Thank you very much!  As I said, I am very bad with these things. 

I will try your diagram right away!


----------



## Dulalala

Rabid86 said:


> I want a band-stop filter. To notch out a frequency between 2kHz and 5kHz. I can use the lowpass-filter okay by itself, like I connected it in my diagram. And I can use the highpass-filter okay aswell by itself, also like on the diagram. But when I connect both of them together like in the pictures, it only makes the low frequencies come through. I want it to carve out the "bad" frequencies that I want to tame as much as possible. I can show a measurement of the driver without any filtering and you will understand why I want to remove this.



That being said though, that peak you're speaking of between 2 kHz and 5 kHz is normal. I'm pretty sure the frequency response curve is just an uncompensated one.

If you look at the Harman target curve, you'll see that for perceived neutrality, or at least what Harman considers to be, there is a peak between the given frequencies:


Even the HD800S has one:


So I'm not sure why you're trying to get rid of it.


----------



## Rabid86

Well, the measurement is my own. And I used a compensated curve aswell. I have the Veritas II measurement microphone from this place: https://diyearphone.com/products/veritas-ii

I used their own correction curve linked in that page. I know that the response seems exaggerated, but this sound is absolutely earbleeding! Without a filter it is impossible to listen to. 
It is the nature of these drivers it seems. But it is also the cheapest balanced armature driver I could find, otherwise it would have been to good to be true.


----------



## Dulalala

Rabid86 said:


> Well, the measurement is my own. And I used a compensated curve aswell. I have the Veritas II measurement microphone from this place: https://diyearphone.com/products/veritas-ii
> 
> I used their own correction curve linked in that page. I know that the response seems exaggerated, but this sound is absolutely earbleeding! Without a filter it is impossible to listen to.
> It is the nature of these drivers it seems. But it is also the cheapest balanced armature driver I could find, otherwise it would have been to good to be true.



I might be wrong but I think the correction curve they've given is for the microphone calibration, not for perceived neutrality. Either way, does your design comprise of more than one transducer? If you don't have another driver to compensate for the missing frequency, I'm going to assume it's going to sound very odd.


----------



## Rabid86

Thank you for the information!  I am well aware of what kind of a sound I am after, and this is a big learning process for me. 
Though, I am very excited for it! Because I know that I can make this driver sound great with the right tools. I just need some help and inspiration to get there. I couldn't figure this out on my own, so that is why this forum is so amazing!

I can show you another measurement of a pair of dynamic-IEMs that I measured aswell. It is not nearly as bad with those frequencies, so it may be the driver itself that is the problem.
 

Maybe I am totally wrong with this, you are probably right about the correction curve. I will see what other settings I can use to re-measure these.

Again, thank you very much for the help!


----------



## Dulalala (Jan 6, 2018)

Rabid86 said:


> Maybe I am totally wrong with this, you are probably right about the correction curve. I will see what other settings I can use to re-measure these.



There isn't really a need to compensate it for perceived neutrality, so long as you're aware that there is supposed to be a curve there, just maybe not as intense.



Rabid86 said:


> hank you for the information!  I am well aware of what kind of a sound I am after, and this is a big learning process for me.
> Though, I am very excited for it! Because I know that I can make this driver sound great with the right tools. I just need some help and inspiration to get there. I couldn't figure this out on my own, so that is why this forum is so amazing!



Did you consider using acoustic filters instead of electrical filters? If the issue is a peak I don't think electrical filters are a good solution to that.


----------



## Rabid86

Dulalala said:


> There isn't really a need to compensate it for perceived neutrality, so long as you're aware that there is supposed to be a curve there, just maybe not as intense.
> 
> Did you consider using acoustic filters instead of electrical filters? If the issue is a peak I don't think electrical filters are a good solution to that.



Yes, it is definitely not THAT bad, but it is good to be able to see where the problem area is more clearly.

I did use knowles and sonion filters, but I got better results using toilet paper. Though, either filters made the sound to be veiled. 
Here is another measurement with acoustic filtering: 

 

I did not care too much for the sound, even though it is not earpiercing anymore.

Now I will take a break for the night. I will get back to this with a fresh mind tomorrow morning!

Thank you very much for all the help!


----------



## AudioObsession

Hi, Do any of you guys know of a good source (In the USA) for purchasing Dynamic Drivers? 
Preferably high quality, featuring Biological diaphragm, or Beryllium, or Carbon nano-diaphragm, Graphene would be nice as well..
Anybody know where I can find something like this in the USA???
Thanks so much for your time!


----------



## AudioObsession

Also:  I did find this store here that sells them (along with a bunch of other really cool DIY parts):
https://greensense.aliexpress.com/store/323026?spm=2114.12010608.0.0.398a2fa5VmpSUX
But, I HATE shopping at AliExpress because it takes forever for your order to arrive, -IF- it even does arrive.

That said; I may have no other choice, so the next question is:
Has anyone here ever had any experience with the above seller (Chitty's Store) on AliExpress?

Thanks!


----------



## aratj

finished )


----------



## Im1fan2nv

My 1st set for a coworker sold cheap for practice.. Knowles GK - White and Gray dampers
Finished.


----------



## Einencool

Looks nice, and I have some questions 
It looks like you have attached the tubes with a peace of steel pipe to the driver, or something like this.
And although it looks like another steel pipe at the end of the ear canal.

Why did you do this? Does it affect the sound, or was it just for testing?

In my opinion the Wood Faceplates look better, when they have the shape of the InEar. For me, it looks like it does not belong to the headphones, but it‘s only my opinion, the work looks very good. *respekt* 

I have always a big Problem with clear shells, so I have to colour them, but now I‘m trying to make some „smoke black“ Shells... even with a GK driver
Greets Chris


----------



## SVTong (Jan 8, 2018)

Hi all,

I'm getting ready to build a new pair to replace my current GK setup.  I'm finding the GK's to be a little too flat for my liking - I'd like to build a pair with a bit more of a V curve with (hopefully) increased sub-bass.  Has anyone tried a HODVTEC+TWFK combination?  Would I need to build a crossover, or can I just wire them up?  And should I go series or parallel?  So far, all of the builds I've done have been with pre-built GK's or GV's, so the crossover side of things is still new to me.

I was also thinking about trying a dual CI+TWFK, but I've heard that just makes a mess of the low end.

Thanks!

Edit:  Aaand I'm an idiot - the GV IS an HODVTEC+TWFK.  So that leaves the question - how do I get more bass out of a GK or a GV setup?


----------



## Andrumgt (Jan 8, 2018)

SVTong said:


> So that leaves the quiestion - how do I get more bass out of a GK or a GV setup?


Use the ports on the GV.


----------



## SVTong

Andrumgt said:


> Use the ports on the GV.



When you say use the ports - do you mean just pulling the tape off of both of them?


----------



## Im1fan2nv

Einencool said:


> Looks nice, and I have some questions
> It looks like you have attached the tubes with a peace of steel pipe to the driver, or something like this.
> And although it looks like another steel pipe at the end of the ear canal.
> 
> ...



--> These pipes are used, at the BA for better support and it makes the coupling better. At the end was used at first because of various recommendations(smaller at exit port for lo end and larger exit port for Hi.. The second reason was because I saw this somewhere and liked the look so I tried it and it gave me a somewhat better response curve so I've used it on my only 2 completed pair of units.

As far as the faceplate, I'm still new at this and as others have done, they cut a small portion of the back and use that shape for the faceplate. I suppose I could start looking at ways to make all of them with similar faceplate shapes. I just haven't got to that point yet.

I had many many clear scraps that ended up foggy looking and with continued help from this site, I'm able to finally get something that looks fairly clear. There are others on here that produce crystal clear and I just haven't got there yet. I get shells that need patching up once I pull them but the best trick I've learned, is to be sure the shell cures all the way. Longer time in the glycerin and clean with lightly soapy water when removed. If I used alcohol, I get foggy. I could polish the outside, but couldn't figure out a way to polish the inside. My colored shells are still learning curve items as well.


----------



## Einencool

Thank you for your response. 
I know what you mean with the foggy inside off the shells.

These are my actual InEars 
 
 
 


And these are the shells I‘m actually working on
 

The blue ones are my GV-driver IEM and the new ones are going to be some GK‘s with a white damper and only one Soundtube.
This time for the Faceplate I will make it like the shells with my initials... I hope it will work to drill it into the material...


----------



## NoForMe

Has anyone tried using the UVICUBE for curing?  I just picked one up for $20 and I haven't tried it.  Do you think it will work>?  https://www.uvicube.com/pages/operating-instructions


----------



## MuZo2

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2651604


----------



## ForceMajeure

MuZo2 said:


> https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2651604



Nice!


----------



## Im1fan2nv

NoForMe said:


> Has anyone tried using the UVICUBE for curing?  I just picked one up for $20 and I haven't tried it.  Do you think it will work>?  https://www.uvicube.com/pages/operating-instructions



I tried something similar, it was a sanitizer(got it cheap) but the wavelength of the bulbs were incorrect. I took my nail lamp apart and used the lights inside the sanitizer enclosure.  It works great. I plan to make it nice and neat and rewire it with 8 nail lamps inside on 2 shelves when I get the sockets for them. My findings especially with this setup is that curing works best with UV light on sides and bottom, with the rotating clear table. Light on the top is not necessary, it gets enough reflected light to do what is needed to the top.



MuZo2 said:


> https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2651604



Nice, is this your design? Looks very promising.


----------



## sanekn

MuZo2 said:


> https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2651604


Ok this stuff is simply brilliant! Thanks for the link, will do this when time comes


----------



## MuZo2

Im1fan2nv said:


> Nice, is this your design? Looks very promising.



No its not my design, I found it, people using DLP and SLA printers use it for post curing of prints made from UV resin.


----------



## NoForMe

Ok guys I need some help. I’ve been around watching for years a tried and tried again.  I have a 36watt nail UV setup and I’m just not getting consistent shells.  I have weak spots and my curing time is upwards of 8 minutes. Im using krystaloid (its 2 years old and used probably 10 times).   Help please!


----------



## jbr1971

NoForMe said:


> Ok guys I need some help. I’ve been around watching for years a tried and tried again.  I have a 36watt nail UV setup and I’m just not getting consistent shells.  I have weak spots and my curing time is upwards of 8 minutes. Im using krystaloid (its 2 years old and used probably 10 times).   Help please!



I have a 36W nail lamp as well and anything above 2 minutes gives me completely solid chunks of Fotoplast. Are you using Fotoplast (or similar)?

Given the age and usage of your krystaloid, how clear is it? It may be "cloudy" enough that the full strength of the light is not getting through. Do you have a picture?

Also, I found the underside portions of my shells were not as thick as the rest, so whenever I make shells I set the lamp on a mirror which has helped a lot in fixing those issues.


----------



## NoForMe

jbr1971 said:


> I have a 36W nail lamp as well and anything above 2 minutes gives me completely solid chunks of Fotoplast. Are you using Fotoplast (or similar)?
> 
> Given the age and usage of your krystaloid, how clear is it? It may be "cloudy" enough that the full strength of the light is not getting through. Do you have a picture?
> 
> Also, I found the underside portions of my shells were not as thick as the rest, so whenever I make shells I set the lamp on a mirror which has helped a lot in fixing those issues.



What are your normal cure times?  I just ordered some more krystalloid but I have the gelatin I'll try while i'm waiting for it's arrival.  looking at this it looks pretty cloudy to me.


----------



## faiwinnie

can anyone tell me where to order the krystalloid?


----------



## NoForMe

faiwinnie said:


> can anyone tell me where to order the krystalloid?


Contact Chris Perkins at Lightning Enterprises (cperkins@lightningenterprises.com)
He'll make it happen  You can order in 1 lb increments


----------



## Squirg

NoForMe said:


> Contact Chris Perkins at Lightning Enterprises (cperkins@lightningenterprises.com)
> He'll make it happen  You can order in 1 lb increments



Here is where Chris P. sells it by the pound...

http://www.fusionet.com/

He also has Lightning Enterprises but I think he just sells it by the tub on that site.  However, it has more products in general.
Good luck!


----------



## jbr1971

NoForMe said:


> What are your normal cure times?  I just ordered some more krystalloid but I have the gelatin I'll try while i'm waiting for it's arrival.  looking at this it looks pretty cloudy to me.



The initial cure is 45-50 seconds (I cover the top with a quarter so I don't have to pry a solid top off), dump the excess Fotoplast, then final cure in alcohol.

That gives me a good shell thickness while leaving me room for parts.

Keep in mind, I have big ear canals, so if yours are small, you will want to try a shorter time to make sure you don't end up with solid canal portions.


----------



## Einencool

I think your negative form is to big, so the light couldn’t reach the fotoplast evenly and this is why your shells are not so good. 

Also try to use the nail lamp upside down. Put your form into a height that the side lamps are on the same height. 

But the main reason is in my opinion the diameter of the form.


----------



## NoForMe (Jan 18, 2018)

Einencool said:


> I think your negative form is to big, so the light couldn’t reach the fotoplast evenly and this is why your shells are not so good.
> 
> Also try to use the nail lamp upside down. Put your form into a height that the side lamps are on the same height.
> 
> But the main reason is in my opinion the diameter of the form.



That’s a really good thought.  Im going to make some smaller forms tomorrow and see what that does.  Im currently testing out the gelatin as I threw out all my krystaloid due to it being so cloudy. 

On another note, does fotoplast have a shelf life?  Mine is 2 years old.  Wondering if that’s the problem.   I have shells cooking for 9 minutes right now and I’m barely getting a wall.... they are colored with alcohol ink, just in case that matters


----------



## kn0ppers

I need some help now too. I have ordered some Knowles BAs, some GV-Quads (TWFK+HDTEC), GKs (TWFK+CI), CIs and TWFKs for a 2*TWFK+CI combination or something like that. Now I want to build universal IEMs with the GK and maybe the quad, which I want to use with Comply or silicone eartips. So here come the questions:

1. Now there are some DIY Shells for sale on Aliexpress, most of them look like crap, some of the ones sold as Shure 535 shells seem so be okay in quality and in fact I got myself some of them. Now how to I combine the 2 driver outputs, each with different dampers into the small sound tube of a universal IEM? Should I just use some heatshrink construction at the very end (take the 2 small tubes, than a bigger one stuck on a small one and just heatshrink over all of it)? Or try to get two small soundtubes next to each other in the bore, maybe widen it a little more with a small dremel tool? Or draw something up in CAD and have it 3D-Printed (I don't own a printer myself sadly - not yet..)?As I see it, most manufacturers use more or less a single piece to route the soundtubes together (or take a different approach like Logitech did with the UE900 and the two bores). I just don't know how much of a hassle it will be to implement this kind of solution in a DIY IEM. 

2. If I am not satisfied with those shells after all, which relatively cheap China IEMs or so have a relatively universal fit, a larger housing and would therefore be a good template for making my own universal IEM shells with Dreve Fotoplast? KZ ZST look okay, but I saw some pictures here with DIY universal IEMs that had a slightly different, less edgy shape to them. So if you have suggestions, I would be very happy to hear them!


----------



## leapof

kn0ppers said:


> 2. If I am not satisfied with those shells after all, which relatively cheap China IEMs or so have a relatively universal fit, a larger housing and would therefore be a good template for making my own universal IEM shells with Dreve Fotoplast? KZ ZST look okay, but I saw some pictures here with DIY universal IEMs that had a slightly different, less edgy shape to them. So if you have suggestions, I would be very happy to hear them!



I did use the KZ ZST's as template for my universals and it worked great! I used the same process as you would use building a custom iem but instead of using ear impressions I used the KZ's, as simple as that


----------



## Rabid86

Hello again! I have been trying to finish up the electronical notch-filter and it has worked pretty well! My problem, however, is that the high frequencies gets affected aswell.
Here is a graph of the headphones before and after the use of the filter:

 

The changes from around 4-5kHz all the way to around 13kHz is quite alot. 
I used a notch-filter calculator and the components I used was a polyester capacitor at 4.7uF along with an inductor of 560uH. The sound is good, but I wouldn't mind keeping more of the high frequencies to be able to tame them further with a screenfilter if needed.

I used this calculator: http://sim.okawa-denshi.jp/en/RLCBesample.htm

So, my question is this: Is there any other way of making this kind of a notch-filter without affecting the high-frequencies? Or can I modify the circuit to preserve it better?
I tried connecting the components in parallel, but it didn't do much difference at all (it only cut it 4-5db).

Thank you very much!

/Anders


----------



## Firedrops

Rabid86 said:


> Hello again! I have been trying to finish up the electronical notch-filter and it has worked pretty well! My problem, however, is that the high frequencies gets affected aswell.
> Here is a graph of the headphones before and after the use of the filter:
> 
> 
> ...



Looks amazing!

Did you try just adding a high pass filter before/after the notch, perhaps around 1k? This could help tame the lows and relatively balance it out again. I'm not sure if this will cause unintended interactions between the 2 filters, though.
For multi-driver designs, maybe a resistor on the woofers could work, too.


----------



## Elzizo

Pretty impressive feat of engineering. Nicely done!


----------



## Rabid86

Hey guys! Thank you very much!  Right now, the way I have it set up is to a breadboard. However, SMD components are on the way, and will hopefully be able to produce a similar response (let's hope).

I only use a single BA driver and at the moment I think the balance between bass and mids are pretty good. A high pass might also lower the overall volume, but maybe not significantly? However, it is a good suggestion and I will try it!

If it is possible, I want the headphones to be driven from a phone without a problem. Right now it can for the most part, but don't want to lower it any further.

I will get back when I get the rest of the components to show the progress. Thanks for the support! I really appreciate it and needed it to be able to work even better.

/Anders


----------



## ForceMajeure (Jan 20, 2018)

deleted


----------



## Einencool

Hi, this time i want so show you my last build, because I‘ve learned so much from you, so I want to show, what I was able to make with all the feedback. The Feedback also goes to a German suplier for the Dreve fotoplast and very good tips 

This is a GK Build with a gray damper and with graved initials 

 
Greets
Chris


----------



## MuZo2

This should be nice curing chamber for us.


----------



## Portofly (Jan 23, 2018)

CRUD!!! I JUST REALIZED THAT I MAY HAVE WIRED MY GV'S INCORRECTLY.  I wired them left and right bottom solder pads if the TWFK is on the top of the HODVTEC.  When I put them in my ears, I thought I was getting full sound, but it looks like the TWFK is supposed to be on the left.  Did I goof up the build, or did I accidentally do it the right way?
I'd hate to have to open them up. It was the first pretty pair I've finished.


----------



## Im1fan2nv

Portofly said:


> CRUD!!! I JUST REALIZED THAT I MAY HAVE WIRED MY GV'S INCORRECTLY.  I wired them left and right bottom solder pads if the TWFK is on the top of the HODVTEC.  When I put them in my ears, I thought I was getting full sound, but it looks like the TWFK is supposed to be on the left.  Did I goof up the build, or did I accidentally do it the right way?
> I'd hate to have to open them up. It was the first pretty pair I've finished.



It should be fine, the TWFK's are wired to the top 2 pads. the 4 tabs on the HODVTEC are crisscrossed so the positive would be bottom left and negative would be the bottom right. They call out the side 2 pads for + and - because they are pads only and are not internally connected. Therefore, there is less chance of damaging the inside solder joints of the HODVTEC. The top 2 pads of the HODVTEC are left-negative and right-positive. You can see the crisscross on the data sheet, it looks like an X between the 4 HODVTEC pads.

Hope this eases your mind some. But if you think something is wired wrong, I'm guessing the sound isn't that great and one of the tubes may have a leak or the end of the output port is not completely sealed or something else. You might be able to check the DC resistance and see if you have the correct DC measurement.


----------



## Portofly

Im1fan2nv said:


> It should be fine, the TWFK's are wired to the top 2 pads. the 4 tabs on the HODVTEC are crisscrossed so the positive would be bottom left and negative would be the bottom right. They call out the side 2 pads for + and - because they are pads only and are not internally connected. Therefore, there is less chance of damaging the inside solder joints of the HODVTEC. The top 2 pads of the HODVTEC are left-negative and right-positive. You can see the crisscross on the data sheet, it looks like an X between the 4 HODVTEC pads.
> 
> Hope this eases your mind some. But if you think something is wired wrong, I'm guessing the sound isn't that great and one of the tubes may have a leak or the end of the output port is not completely sealed or something else. You might be able to check the DC resistance and see if you have the correct DC measurement.


I Don't think there would be any issues. when I shoved them in my ears (the best I could since they are someone elses) they sounded spectacular. after posting I pulled the PDF back up and tentatively came to that conclusion, but it brings immense comfort to hear someone confirm it. Thanks!


----------



## Portofly

these are the first two pairs that I've finished.   Enormous thank you to everyone who has contributed to this thread for the last few years and have given such an immense amount of learning (and reading).


----------



## NoForMe

briancortez2112 said:


> All of the hard work you guys put in will pay off!!
> Some recent ones I have done.


How did you get the solid color?


----------



## NoForMe

Einencool said:


> Hi, this time i want so show you my last build, because I‘ve learned so much from you, so I want to show, what I was able to make with all the feedback. The Feedback also goes to a German suplier for the Dreve fotoplast and very good tips
> 
> This is a GK Build with a gray damper and with graved initials
> 
> ...


How did you get the solid white.


----------



## NoForMe

Guys I got a new toy!!! One of my local dentist closed his doors and he gave me 2 of these!!!


----------



## Andrumgt

NoForMe said:


> Guys I got a new toy!!! One of my local dentist closed his doors and he gave me 2 of these!!!


Great!!!they are almost useless, probably in the 500nm or even higher wavelength.


----------



## NoForMe

Andrumgt said:


> Great!!!they are almost useless, probably in the 500nm or even higher wavelength.


Might want to research a little more. This thing works great


----------



## ForceMajeure (Jan 27, 2018)

NoForMe said:


> Guys I got a new toy!!! One of my local dentist closed his doors and he gave me 2 of these!!!


These are good. it's gonna take your builds to the next level
Although the wavelength range is not optimal for curing it gets the job done. good for faceplate, decorations and securing stuff. the output power is significant enough to cure egger and dreve fast. even opaque colors. of course it should be used at a close range.
I don't know about the specific one you have here. but usually those are good (~420-480nm). if you feel adventurous you could buy a 3w or 5w 365nm led and replace it with the one inside. you have to make sure the battery is supplying the correct voltage and current though.


----------



## Andrumgt

Trust me, go ahead and replace the led inside, with one of a different wavelength.You will avoid all of the cursing when your resin will turn yellowish. 
It’s a couple of bucks mod.


----------



## NoForMe

Andrumgt said:


> Trust me, go ahead and replace the led inside, with one of a different wavelength.You will avoid all of the cursing when your resin will turn yellowish.
> It’s a couple of bucks mod.


Shoot me a link


----------



## NoForMe

Has anyone figured out an better way for faceplates?


----------



## headphones1999

love this thread


----------



## alanwcruz

NoForMe said:


> Has anyone figured out an better way for faceplates?



I use playdoh to make a little dam around the shell, then I pour in some fotoplast and cure for about 1 min, I remove the playdoh and dip the faceplate into glycerin and cure for another minute, then I clean it up with alcohol and sand the borders for a perfect fit.


----------



## Vetseun

Can anyone recommend a set of IEMs from aliexpress to open up and use to house a set of GVs?  I've seen mention of folks using a set of KZ ZSTs for this?  I've contemplated in the past using a set of shure 535 shells for Aliexpress, but I don't like the limitation of using a single damper in the nozzle and the sealing seems to be very finicky.

I've seen folks using an existing set of IEM, like the ZSTs, to house the the BAs.  The nozzle on those shells seem large enough that you can do use separate tubes and dampers etc...

Would the ZSTs be a good starting point, or can someone recommend another set that would be a better base for a set of GVs?

Thanks!


----------



## aratj (Feb 3, 2018)

Vetseun said:


> Can anyone recommend a set of IEMs from aliexpress to open up and use to house a set of GVs?  I've seen mention of folks using a set of KZ ZSTs for this?  I've contemplated in the past using a set of shure 535 shells for Aliexpress, but I don't like the limitation of using a single damper in the nozzle and the sealing seems to be very finicky.
> 
> I've seen folks using an existing set of IEM, like the ZSTs, to house the the BAs.  The nozzle on those shells seem large enough that you can do use separate tubes and dampers etc...
> 
> ...


i am used **** ues shells 
for GVs drivers


----------



## Vetseun

aratj said:


> i am used **** ues shells
> for GVs drivers



Awesome! Easy to open them up? And the GVs fit nicely?  Are you happy with how it turned out?


----------



## aratj

Vetseun said:


> Awesome! Easy to open them up? And the GVs fit nicely?  Are you happy with how it turned out?


yeas easy


   

now GV in this ciems )
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/home-made-iems.430688/page-484#post-13959762


----------



## Pete64

Hey guys, could you please tell me what dampers you use with good result for GV’s?


----------



## aratj

in my taste sound good without dumpers
and i remove them in last build iems.


----------



## Pete64

Ok great! I will try that. How many ventholes do you open? and do you remove the tape or the black things? By the way i like a bit punch and bassier (full) sound.


----------



## aratj

hmm, ventholes with BA ?


----------



## Makahl

Vetseun said:


> Can anyone recommend a set of IEMs from aliexpress to open up and use to house a set of GVs?  I've seen mention of folks using a set of KZ ZSTs for this?  I've contemplated in the past using a set of shure 535 shells for Aliexpress, but I don't like the limitation of using a single damper in the nozzle and the sealing seems to be very finicky.
> 
> I've seen folks using an existing set of IEM, like the ZSTs, to house the the BAs.  The nozzle on those shells seem large enough that you can do use separate tubes and dampers etc...
> 
> ...



I got the ZST but I'd rather go with ZS3 for better ergonomic fit (and it's cheaper and there's not that much glue to remove inside).



aratj said:


> hmm, ventholes with BA ?



I think he meant this:


Spoiler


----------



## Pete64

Thats right aratj. And theres even two more covered with tape. Which to remove? I think i first read about removing this black rubber things, and later ami read someone removed the ones covered with tape?


----------



## aratj (Feb 3, 2018)

oh, sorry dont saw ventholes  on my GV


----------



## headphones1999

can anyone link me some high quality MMCX (straight) and 3.5mm connectors that i can buy? 
Im looking at Ebay and even the 20$ doesn't look like high quality...


----------



## Im1fan2nv

Pete64 said:


> Hey guys, could you please tell me what dampers you use with good result for GV’s?


I used green and brown. Green on HODVTEC and Brown on TWFK. Without dampers at all, the hi’s were way too loud for my taste. Many people use Red on HODVTEC and Green on TWFK but to me, this cut my SPL too much and the Green/Brown brought it back to a level I like.


----------



## Pete64

Thank’s for answers!


----------



## FlyinUte

headphones1999 said:


> can anyone link me some high quality MMCX (straight) and 3.5mm connectors that i can buy?
> Im looking at Ebay and even the 20$ doesn't look like high quality...



Newark has a ton of options.


----------



## Limoster

Hello everyone!
I'm a newbie here in HeadFi.
I wanted to know your opinion on this setup of my firts multi driver hybrid IEM. I shared an image of the crossover: ( https://photos.app.goo.gl/4zSZsWGJmC9Q3FGq2 )

The crossover will have a custom PCB and the IEM shell is universal and quite big, so everything will fit together. I'll use 4:1 heatshrink for the 10mm driver to create a smooth tube that goes to a triple bore output.

I don't plan to buy till next month since I'll make my buy from Taobao because BA drivers are MUCH cheaper and now they're celebrating Chinese New Year till 22 Feb.

Thanks for all your support!

PD: Here  you have a picture of my first DIY IEMs made with the 9mm Lugger bullet shells: https://photos.app.goo.gl/NVStrBu9enBllRbd2


----------



## BigBublik

Want to make headphones like Audio Campfire or the similar shape. 
But I can't find a 3D model to print the shell on a 3D printer. 
Tell me where to search or maybe you have a 3D model?


----------



## ltltmartin (Feb 10, 2018)

Hi Limoster and everyone, I'm a newbie as well and I just completed my first diem project, (in a very improvised fashion tho) which is quite similar to what you are planning. I can't really comment on your setup due to my inexperience, but here is my result:



Spoiler: Drivers configuration





The black tubing is 0.6mm bell wire sleeve which act as an acoustic low pass, the grey ones are 1 1.5 and 2mm heat shrink tube.


the tubing assembly

 
The housing is made with super glue coated thick card and the crossover is located at the other end of the cable.

How do you guys even manage to fit so many things in such small housings 





Sound is really nice, here is a comparison with my flc8s (red clear black) and mdr 7550 as reference.
The measurements are made with an IEC 711 clone from taobao. I actually like the new diy iem more then my beloved Flc8s which I sometimes found a tad too bright and lean.


Red=diy Blue=Flc8s Grey=MDR7550

Not sure why but the SWFK is rather attenuated above 10k, I first thought the ED is cancelling it's output since I connected the SWFK in reverse polarity to avoid huge dips at 4 to 7k, but it doesn't seems to be the case as it stays the same when I disconnected the ED.

Btw speaking of taobao, you might want to buy Bellsing drivers for your first project, they are sightly cheaper but the characteristics are incredible close to Knowles counterparts.

Good luck on your project!


----------



## aussietanker

ltltmartin said:


> Btw speaking of taobao, you might want to buy Bellsing drivers for your first project, they are sightly cheaper but the characteristics are incredible close to Knowles counterparts.



Thanks for the tip. Appreciated


----------



## Limoster

ltltmartin said:


> Hi Limoster and everyone, I'm a newbie as well and I just completed my first diem project, (in a very improvised fashion tho) which is quite similar to what you are planning. I can't really comment on your setup due to my inexperience, but here is my result:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Preety cool! I like your design quite a lot 
Now I see many more possibilities with a Custom IEM shell like yours.
I read a bit about Bellsing and Estron and I thank you for mentioning them. They are quite a bargain for being the same. The only thing I need are datasheets. I'll do some more research later.

I see your crossover is quite simple and I like that, but I want to make my crossover as Important as the drivers itself. What I mean is i hai have discovered that Knowles uses in very few drivers the IEC711 standard and the testing parameters are quite different from one driver to the other. I have learned how to match the "sensitivity" at the voltage they have tested with the 1mw equivalent for correct dB/mw I want to achieve.
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-db.htm

Now I'm using a pirated version of EveryCircuit on my phone to simulate the crossover at different frequencies and match the impedances. I'll later export the crossover to EasyEDA and create a custom PCB prototype on JLCPCB.  

I'll use the 2P4T switch (K3-2410D-F1) on my IEM to have 4 sound signatures since I'll only modify the sensitivity of the SWFK tweeter and an Isobaric 10mm subwoofer, I'll achieve a FLAT setting, BASS BOOST, TREBLE BOOST, and V-SHAPE.

ATM I have to research some more into the drivers you mentioned and create more simulations.

I hope I'm not the first to discover EveryCircuit simulator for creating CIEMs


----------



## Xymordos

Just a friendly reminder for people - Chinese New Year is next week so Taobao's shipping should be closed until end of February.


----------



## Limoster

Has anyone looked into using Smartphone replacement speakers with a low pass filter as a subwoofer on an IEM? They seem quite space efficient since they aren't round and they are quite cheap. I found this Aliexpress seller  (www.aliexpress.com/store/314854) that has many different models for different phones, and even sells sample packs of 20 different speakers in pairs for less than if you bought a pair 20 times. This could be great for testing each and one of them. www.aliexpress.com/store/product/20models-New-loudspeaker-ringer-buzzer-earpiece-receiver-for-Xiaomi-M1-M2-M3-2A-HTC-816-Nokia/314854_32699633206.html

Would you risk trying it?


----------



## Mogol

Hi guys! I finished the next pair of IEM and there is one unpleasant problem = (
The low frequencies on one of the monitors are much quieter than on the other one. And before I attached the faceplate the frequency response was identical. The difference appeared only after the final processing of the faceplate with dremel and lacquering.
It`s GV inside. What can it be? HODVTEC died of vibrations?, or the tube for LF has come loose. I tried to change the red damper, but it did not help.

I'm sure that these monitors would have an excellent balanced sound, if not for this annoying malfunction=(


----------



## Mogol




----------



## alanwcruz

Mogol said:


> Hi guys! I finished the next pair of IEM and there is one unpleasant problem = (
> The low frequencies on one of the monitors are much quieter than on the other one. And before I attached the faceplate the frequency response was identical. The difference appeared only after the final processing of the faceplate with dremel and lacquering.
> It`s GV inside. What can it be? HODVTEC died of vibrations?, or the tube for LF has come loose. I tried to change the red damper, but it did not help.
> 
> I'm sure that these monitors would have an excellent balanced sound, if not for this annoying malfunction=(




Been there, finishing a couple of beauties only to have horrible sound... In my experience it's one of two things, a tube came loose or a tube got bent at an ugly angle causing a blockage, in either case you gotta take apart the CIEM to fix it. Shame, those look really great!


----------



## Mogol

alanwcruz said:


> take apart


Yeah, completely destroy = (
I hope the drivers are fine.


----------



## Genio Croto

Mogol said:


> Yeah, completely destroy = (
> I hope the drivers are fine.



unfortunately it has happened to me, and I had to open it, generally the tubes are separated from the armature... and it has happened to me that when I pass the last layer of lacquer it goes into a tube and makes it smaller ...
Good luck


----------



## CoiL

ltltmartin said:


> Red=diy Blue=Flc8s Grey=MDR7550


That red line looks pretty great for me. Dammit, I gotta get into this multi driver customs since I have all the tools... just need to educate myself with BA`s and crossovers.


----------



## ltltmartin

Limoster said:


> Has anyone looked into using Smartphone replacement speakers with a low pass filter as a subwoofer on an IEM? They seem quite space efficient since they aren't round and they are quite cheap. I found this Aliexpress seller  (www.aliexpress.com/store/314854) that has many different models for different phones, and even sells sample packs of 20 different speakers in pairs for less than if you bought a pair 20 times. This could be great for testing each and one of them. www.aliexpress.com/store/product/20models-New-loudspeaker-ringer-buzzer-earpiece-receiver-for-Xiaomi-M1-M2-M3-2A-HTC-816-Nokia/314854_32699633206.html
> 
> Would you risk trying it?



I doubt that rectangular dynamic drivers has clear benefits in terms of space saving, since they're not like BA which you can pack them as tightly as possible. Also, I think a rectangular diaphragm will have worse distortion and linearity than circular ones. (I could be wrong tho) I will save the money for a few more circular drivers to experiment with if I were you.



CoiL said:


> That red line looks pretty great for me. Dammit, I gotta get into this multi driver customs since I have all the tools... just need to educate myself with BA`s and crossovers.



thanks mate, female vocal sounds gorgeous to me and everything is very airy, although it can sometimes sound a bit harsh and shouty. Maybe start with a GV or CI + TWFK? Can't go wrong with these. I learned quite a lot when I was tweaking the tubes length and the cap value on the twfk.


----------



## Limoster

ltltmartin said:


> I doubt that rectangular dynamic drivers has clear benefits in terms of space saving, since they're not like BA which you can pack them as tightly as possible. Also, I think a rectangular diaphragm will have worse distortion and linearity than circular ones. (I could be wrong tho) I will save the money for a few more circular drivers to experiment with if I were you.



Just read about it and you're right. I even had the chance to test a square subminiature speaker yesterday and I've found it was under 8 ohms, just as expected. It didn't have any bass under 60hz though :/

I'm probably going to use a dual sub arrangement with cones face to face and a sound outlet to one side. I'll use them in parallel and one sub will be connected to a switch, so the sound can go from 1 sub @ 115db to 2 subs @ 121db since the impedance is halved and the 2 sound waves are in phase.
 I'll use the speakers from the Earpods of Apple since they are the only ones with a paper cone. This is good since the cone itself acts as a low pass filter.  www.aliexpress.com/item/32497407437.html


----------



## Andrumgt

ltltmartin said:


> thanks mate, female vocal sounds gorgeous to me and everything is very airy, although it can sometimes sound a bit harsh and shouty.


You just made a contradiction...


----------



## ltltmartin

Andrumgt said:


> You just made a contradiction...


Probably. But it just sounds that way to me, female vocal is very pleasing in general. Meanwhile the iem can sound a bit harsh on certain tracks.



Limoster said:


> I'm probably going to use a dual sub arrangement with cones face to face and a sound outlet to one side.


 2 x 9mm dd and a few more BAs plus switches... I just can't imagine how you can fit so many things in a shell.


Btw guys, is it normal that bondic has weak bonding strength when fully cured? I make sure the surfaces are clean by wiping them with acolhol, but still the pvc tube comes off easily with a little bending force.


----------



## Limoster

I still have to find the way the correct components to use. I'll use a big universal shell with one BRC770C28507 as mid-high driver, two BRC305C30095 as tweeters (one connected to the switch), probably a HODVTEC-31618 if it fits and 2x 10mm DD's in a triple chamber single reflex bandpass (one of the speakers will go to the switch).

This is my current schematic design : https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZDfGQdk674bQCT9u2


----------



## jbr1971

ltltmartin said:


> Btw guys, is it normal that bondic has weak bonding strength when fully cured? I make sure the surfaces are clean by wiping them with acolhol, but still the pvc tube comes off easily with a little bending force.



I have not had any issues with Bondic connected joints. I usually run 1 bead around the direct connection point, cure, and run at least a couple more beads to build up and out to strengthen the connection.


----------



## Im1fan2nv

alanwcruz said:


> Been there, finishing a couple of beauties only to have horrible sound... In my experience it's one of two things, a tube came loose or a tube got bent at an ugly angle causing a blockage, in either case you gotta take apart the CIEM to fix it. Shame, those look really great!



Agree, probably loose from the armature or kink. However, I’ve created some pretty severe kinks with little effect on the response curve. Maybe not a total loss. Could be an opportunity to try a salvage disassemble. Take your time, you’ll probably lose the tubing, but if you use small dremel bits, you can probably save the shell. I have a jewelers saw that I use to cut the faceplate off. It’s a tiny thin blade. It can be done though.


My new set of hybrids. GK with a 6mm subwoofer from Ali. Sounds Great! Better sub low end than the GV. I also have recently tried the GK with an extra CI-22955 and it sounds Awesome in my opinion. As far as sound goes, it’s one of my favorite combinations so far.


----------



## ForceMajeure

Im1fan2nv said:


> Agree, probably loose from the armature or kink. However, I’ve created some pretty severe kinks with little effect on the response curve. Maybe not a total loss. Could be an opportunity to try a salvage disassemble. Take your time, you’ll probably lose the tubing, but if you use small dremel bits, you can probably save the shell. I have a jewelers saw that I use to cut the faceplate off. It’s a tiny thin blade. It can be done though.
> 
> 
> My new set of hybrids. GK with a 6mm subwoofer from Ali. Sounds Great! Better sub low end than the GV. I also have recently tried the GK with an extra CI-22955 and it sounds Awesome in my opinion. As far as sound goes, it’s one of my favorite combinations so far.


Very nice tip about the jeweler saw! what blade thickness are you using?

Do you use the DD full range or is it low passed?


----------



## Im1fan2nv

I just used the DD full range since it had a pretty good low end dominate frequency response anyway. I’ll check on the blade tomorrow.


----------



## cjxj

Im1fan2nv said:


> I just used the DD full range since it had a pretty good low end dominate frequency response anyway. I’ll check on the blade tomorrow.



Wondering if you would share how you went about integrating the extra CI with the BK.  i.e. low pass filter?  extra sound tube? etc. Thanks


----------



## Im1fan2nv (Feb 18, 2018)

cjxj said:


> Wondering if you would share how you went about integrating the extra CI with the BK.  i.e. low pass filter?  extra sound tube? etc. Thanks



I was going to work out a low pass but I wanted to get an idea what I was starting with, so I just put it in parallel. Didn’t sound good at all, low end sounded worse than the GK alone so I reversed the CI polarity and man, it sounded great. At that point, there was no need to try a low pass.


----------



## Limoster

I finished the design of the crossover and I bought every component from Taobao. See you in a month or two when I finish my project


----------



## J-breezy

Hey Guys! 
Is there a way to connect a GV and a GQ (or something like a GQ) without any additional crossover stuff besides what’s already on each one already? If so, how would you hook them up? Just parallel? Or reverse polarity? I’ve read that sometimes the speakers can cancel each other out if ran in parallel. 
Thanks!


----------



## Im1fan2nv

ForceMajeure said:


> Very nice tip about the jeweler saw! what blade thickness are you using?
> 
> Do you use the DD full range or is it low passed?



Sorry it took me so long, the jewelers blade is .010” thick.


----------



## Im1fan2nv

J-breezy said:


> Hey Guys!
> Is there a way to connect a GV and a GQ (or something like a GQ) without any additional crossover stuff besides what’s already on each one already? If so, how would you hook them up? Just parallel? Or reverse polarity? I’ve read that sometimes the speakers can cancel each other out if ran in parallel.
> Thanks!



I would try in parallel, if you have the means to check the FR curve, do so. If it looks like crap, reverse the polarity. I haven’t looked, but be sure to compare the SPL on each to be sure one will not drowned out the other, a resistor may be needed.


----------



## FlyinUte

Anybody able to offer an opinion on how the GV would compare with a UE Triple.fi 10 in terms of sound? I had a set of TF10s reshelled by InEarz, and am now interested in doing a DIY set for a wireless setup.


----------



## ForceMajeure

TF10 would be a more V shape sound than the GV setup. A thing to consider going wireless is making sure you have an output impedance of ~< 1 ohm from the wireless module. if not it will most probably skew the sound not in a good way...


----------



## Im1fan2nv

ForceMajeure said:


> TF10 would be a more V shape sound than the GV setup. A thing to consider going wireless is making sure you have an output impedance of ~< 1 ohm from the wireless module. if not it will most probably skew the sound not in a good way...




I’m looking into wireless myself, are we talking completely wireless or a Bluetooth cable? I’m working with another engineer to develop a circuit board with a new 5mm chip to go completely wireless with virtually no delay. It will hit a great target market that wants these for workouts and such. The plan is to also make them capable of accepting a standard cable when the highest possible audio quality is desired. I may have missed something on here though. Has someone else been successful with complete wireless? I’m not talking the Bluetooth cable that lays along the back of the neck.


----------



## FlyinUte

I was just thinking of an existing bluetooth cable, Westone or Shure or similar. A completely wireless CIEM would be the holy grail, but I wouldn't even begin to know how to attempt that.


----------



## ForceMajeure (Feb 25, 2018)

well there are already made soc with complete solutions from various chip manufacturers that even include active noise canceling and what not. basically every wireless iem (even the ones with with no cable) use those beside the airpords that have their own chips.


----------



## FlyinUte

Then you've got power/battery/charging issues to solve, but I love the idea!


----------



## Mogol

I finished another pair. I'm happy with the sound, fit and look. However, as always, I lack 10-13 kHz. Maybe next time =)
Two way, two drivers.
0.68 uF cap for ED.
4.75 Ohm res for CI.
18 mm tubes. 2 mm ID, 3 mm OD.
Dampers - 5 mm for green (ED), 7 mm for red (CI).


----------



## CoiL

Mogol said:


> I finished another pair. I'm happy with the sound, fit and look. However, as always, I lack 10-13 kHz. Maybe next time =)
> Two way, two drivers.
> 0.68 uF cap for ED.
> 4.75 Ohm res for CI.
> ...


These look just plain gorgeous!!! ;P


----------



## FlyinUte

Im1fan2nv said:


> I may have missed something on here though. Has someone else been successful with complete wireless? I’m not talking the Bluetooth cable that lays along the back of the neck.


This guy seems to have done it:

http://blog.naver.com/PostList.nhn?from=postList&blogId=buffect_co&categoryNo=15&currentPage=2

*link is from about 10 pages back in this thread


----------



## Oscar-HiFi

FlyinUte said:


> This guy seems to have done it:
> 
> http://blog.naver.com/PostList.nhn?from=postList&blogId=buffect_co&categoryNo=15&currentPage=2
> 
> *link is from about 10 pages back in this thread



You have to be careful if you are putting a battery in, the IEM cannot be fully sealed as Li-on batteries require venting and cannot be placed in an air tight chassis.


----------



## alanwcruz (Mar 8, 2018)

Here's the latest I've made, all with dynamic drivers, no need for filters by using a fairly long acoustic tube.


----------



## cyph3r

Mogol said:


> I finished another pair. I'm happy with the sound, fit and look. However, as always, I lack 10-13 kHz. Maybe next time =)
> Two way, two drivers.
> 0.68 uF cap for ED.
> 4.75 Ohm res for CI.
> ...




very nice. where did you get those sockets? they look cool.


----------



## cyph3r

Hi all, I am into my first DIY IEM project using Knowles BA drivers and need to glue shell pieces together. Knowles advises that some glues are not compatible with their drivers since components of outgassing can diffuse into drivers and damage them permanently. My inquiry at Knowles which glues are recommended has led to nowhere. Anyone has a recommendation for fast curing glue that does not need UV, heat to cure?


----------



## Limoster

If you remember me, I wanted to make some really complex IEMs. I designed a crossover on a PCB and it has been manufactured through PCBWay. It has to arrive this following week. All the SMD components are here and the last thing I have to receive is the stuff from Taobao (BA, Dynamic drivers, shells, silver mmcx, braided silver cables and more).
Building IEMs is very exciting and fun. I hope everything turns out well ^^

Anyone knows a cheap and easy solution to measure IEM frequency response?


----------



## Mogol

cyph3r said:


> very nice. where did you get those sockets? they look cool.


AliExpress, Soundlink Shop.

Guys, the next project I would like to implement is 6BA IEM. There is still no access to Sonion, so Knowles is my choice. I have a pair of DTEC and I think I'll add HODVTEC for LF and SWFK for HF. Some manufacturers use this combination. I'll play with RC and dampers. Looking ahead I will say that I do not want to use TWFK for this setup. What do you think, will there be anything good out of this?


----------



## Lucas Taboada (Mar 13, 2018)

Anyone can help me pointing the right way to cut my impressions?


----------



## Mogol (Mar 13, 2018)

Lucas Taboada said:


> Anyone can help me pointing the right way to cut my impressions?



My 2 cents. (Based on the experience of communicating with an audiologist).
As you can see in your photo, the second bend is about where the red line is. Cut it there, plus a couple of millimeters towards the eardrum. The blue arrow is the direction of the last part of the ear canal. Your cut must be as perpendicular as possible to this direction. Also, I would smooth the area circled in yellow. In order to be easier to insert.

As for the rest of the impression. I messed up a lot of impressions with a knife. So now I only form them with a Dremel. Carefully, step by step, millimeter by millimeter and soon you will see the shape of your beautiful future IEM. Do not forget about the place for the connector. And constantly compare the left and right impressions.

 
Good luck.


----------



## CJFreeman

Anyone here familiar with Dreve Fotosil and Klarsil-H investment materials? I've done a ton of searching but I can't seem to figure out which is better for UV curing and if the negative molds created can be stored and reused. I emailed Dreve USA and Warner Techcare a day or two ago but have not got a response. Also, which gun and mixing tips from Warner would I need to use the cartridge version of those materials?

On a side note, I would like to thank everyone who has contributed to this thread. All the work you guys have done and subsequently shared has been invaluable.


----------



## Limoster (Mar 13, 2018)

I've semifinished my IEM cable for my next build. Here are some photos 


Spoiler: Photos



























I've used a 8 core OCC plated silver of 19 strands of 0.08mm wire with a silver plated 3.5mm L-shaped jack. I used 4:1 heatshrink with glue walls to seal the jack and for the Y splitter. As for the braids, the 8 strand braid was premade (it is square shaped and not made by Acrolink!) and the 4 strand for the L and R channel is a normal round braid made by myself.
I couldn't wait more to make it all at once, so I started by the cable. Superbuy has finally sent my parcel and I'll receive it in 20 days or less. All the speakers are there :3
The speakers that I bought are:

2 Sonion 33AP007
2 Bellsing 28507 (Knowles 28507 copy)
4 Bellsing 30095 (Knowles 30095 copy)
2 unbranded 9.2mm dynamic drivers for the lower bass.
So in total each side will have 6 drivers: 1 dynamic and 5 balanced armatures. (The Sonion BA has 2 drivers); all powered through a custom printed 5 way crossover.

I hope this doesn't fail miserably. *What do you think of my build?*


----------



## Lucas Taboada

Mogol said:


> My 2 cents. (Based on the experience of communicating with an audiologist).
> As you can see in your photo, the second bend is about where the red line is. Cut it there, plus a couple of millimeters towards the eardrum. The blue arrow is the direction of the last part of the ear canal. Your cut must be as perpendicular as possible to this direction. Also, I would smooth the area circled in yellow. In order to be easier to insert.
> 
> As for the rest of the impression. I messed up a lot of impressions with a knife. So now I only form them with a Dremel. Carefully, step by step, millimeter by millimeter and soon you will see the shape of your beautiful future IEM. Do not forget about the place for the connector. And constantly compare the left and right impressions.
> ...



Thanks a lot!!!

I forgot to put the photos from the other impression, that one seems more difficult to me:


----------



## Lucas Taboada (Mar 16, 2018)

What do you guys recommend to make the wax more smooth? mine is forming some drops and getting a little bit marked. Already tried different temperatures, at higher ones this happen more often


----------



## alanwcruz

Lucas Taboada said:


> What do you guys recommend to make the wax more smooth? mine is forming some drops and getting a little bit marked. Already tried different temperatures, at higher ones this happen more often



Pull them out ear canal first, with the flat side facing downward. You may have to bend the wire you're using to look like a fishing hook.


----------



## Mogol

Lucas Taboada said:


> What do you guys recommend to make the wax more smooth? mine is forming some drops and getting a little bit marked. Already tried different temperatures, at higher ones this happen more often



Do not try to completely avoid these drops. The ear canal must be smooth. And any drops on the rest of the impression you can grind after the shells are ready.
And yes:



alanwcruz said:


> Pull them out ear canal first, with the flat side facing downward.



Also, what kind of wax do you use?


----------



## alanwcruz

Mogol said:


> Also, what kind of wax do you use?



I use normal candles, put them in a pot on a stove, light it and wait till they melt.

I end up with something like this:


----------



## cyph3r

I am planning on painting/ varnishing my IEMs with different colours. Anyone's got a hint which type of colours to use? I am particularly interested in proven skin friendly materials and where to get them. 

Thanks
Philipp


----------



## alanwcruz

cyph3r said:


> I am planning on painting/ varnishing my IEMs with different colours. Anyone's got a hint which type of colours to use? I am particularly interested in proven skin friendly materials and where to get them.
> 
> Thanks
> Philipp




Go to youtube and checkout what the girls accomplish with nail gels.


----------



## Lucas Taboada

Mogol said:


> Also, what kind of wax do you use?



I'm using this wax (Pink wax 7 for dentists): https://www.dentalcremer.com.br/Assets/Produtos/SuperZoom/331875.jpg

I managed to reduce the drops by pulling the ear canal first and using the wax with a little low temperature, thanks!!


----------



## Lucas Taboada

Here's my first pair of shells! 

   

They are made with Nail Top Coat UV, I've had some problems making these shells: it took me 12 minutes to cure the first time, then i poured the excess and cured for more 10 minutes, after that I did the glycerin bath for more 10 minutes. Even with this long time at the first cure and turning yellow, my shells turn out a little bit thin I think (1,5mm) and my gelatin started to melt with the heat too. Anyone have tips on deal with this?

Other problem, even after the full cure process, the shells are a little flexible, not completely hard how I expected. This has to do with the material or thickness? To me the Nail Top Coat UV looks more like a plastic then acrylic. I'm trying to get some Fotoplast, but it's difficult to find it here. So if anyone have some thoughts on how to improve the quality with this material would be awesome. At least until I get my hands on Fotoplast.

Last question: What are the diameter you guys are using for your tubes? 1.5mm(int)/2mm(ext) for attach to the driver and damper, and then 2mm(int)/3mm(ext)? They are made from PVC, silicone or nylon?


----------



## sanekn (Mar 20, 2018)

Lucas Taboada said:


> Here's my first pair of shells!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's an awesome work mate! Btw you can buy fotoplast at ali now (soundlink shop). I pmd you with the link!


----------



## alanwcruz (Mar 20, 2018)

Lucas Taboada said:


> Here's my first pair of shells!
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Get yourself a UV LED strip that's 365nm and build yourself a curing chamber, just wrap it around the inside of a small empty paint can. With this you'll be able to cure shells in around 20-30 seconds and avoid getting foggy shells.

Here's a shell I made sometime ago using nail UV gel and curing with LED light.
 

LED lights help avoid yellowing although I've found that the yellowing tends to fade away after a couple of days, it doesn't totally loose the yellow tint but it gets to a point where it no longer has that ugly golden glow.

For the dampers to fit, you need a tube with a 2mm inner diameter, aside from that it's up to personal preference, I normally use 1mm inner diameter for mid/low frequencies and 2mm inner diameter for high frequencies. Soundlink at ali also have these tubes.


----------



## Lucas Taboada (Mar 20, 2018)

alanwcruz said:


> Get yourself a UV LED strip that's 365nm and build yourself a curing chamber, just wrap it around the inside of a small empty paint can. With this you'll be able to cure shells in around 20-30 seconds and avoid getting foggy shells.
> 
> Here's a shell I made sometime ago using nail UV gel and curing with LED light.
> 
> ...



Wow!! awesome!

Can't find a UV LED strip that's 365nm here  only 395-405nm, it makes much difference? I'm using a nail uv chamber like this: https://http2.mlstatic.com/cabine-e...v-D_NQ_NP_659811-MLB20652693007_032016-F.webp

By the way, what UV Gel do you use? they are completely hard when it's cured? Mine are a little bit soft, using this: http://s3.amazonaws.com/img.iluria.com/product/154030/70DFF2/450xN.jpg

Thanks!


----------



## Limoster

I'd also want to know if 395-405nm led strips are fine because I can only find these in Aliexpress, where I usually buy from. I have found some 3W and 10W leds at 365nm buy they are more expensive than 1m of 60 395nm  leds. 



Lucas Taboada said:


> Wow!! awesome!
> 
> Can't find a UV LED strip that's 365nm here  only 395-405nm, it makes much difference? I'm using a nail uv chamber like this: https://http2.mlstatic.com/cabine-e...v-D_NQ_NP_659811-MLB20652693007_032016-F.webp
> 
> ...



BTW, did you really just use top coat for the entire shell?! That is only meant to be used to coat the finished product, not to make products out of it.
Search for "clear UV resin" and use that next time. But If you want high quality shells you better use Nicefit, Eager or Fotoplast brands for the resin.


----------



## alanwcruz

Lucas Taboada said:


> Wow!! awesome!
> 
> Can't find a UV LED strip that's 365nm here  only 395-405nm, it makes much difference? I'm using a nail uv chamber like this: https://http2.mlstatic.com/cabine-e...v-D_NQ_NP_659811-MLB20652693007_032016-F.webp
> 
> ...



I got my led strip from ali, the UV gel i used was born pretty top coat. Although you'll get far better results if you get some fotoplast. The fotoplast may be an expensive first buy but believe me, if you keep using UV nail gel then the amount you'll spend to get the results you want will steadily climb.

I spent more cash on UV gel than if I had bought some fotoplast in the first place.


----------



## Xymordos

Got my hands on some GD drivers. Anyone know if they're better on mids (500hz to 2khz) or treble(2khz to 6khz)?


----------



## Lucas Taboada

Limoster said:


> I'd also want to know if 395-405nm led strips are fine because I can only find these in Aliexpress, where I usually buy from. I have found some 3W and 10W leds at 365nm buy they are more expensive than 1m of 60 395nm  leds.
> 
> BTW, did you really just use top coat for the entire shell?! That is only meant to be used to coat the finished product, not to make products out of it.
> Search for "clear UV resin" and use that next time. But If you want high quality shells you better use Nicefit, Eager or Fotoplast brands for the resin.



Yeah, nail top coat for the entire shell, I'm using that because Shiloh told us that he used to use too.

Didn't find any 365nm LED too


----------



## ForceMajeure

Anyone has any news from Shiloh? It's been a long time since he wrote something here. I hope everything is ok with him.


----------



## aussietanker

ForceMajeure said:


> Anyone has any news from Shiloh? It's been a long time since he wrote something here. I hope everything is ok with him.



Funny you mention it. I have been wondering EXACTLY the same thing. I hope that all is ok.


----------



## Lucas Taboada

I sent him a message a month ago and he did not answer, hope he's only busy and everything is ok too.


----------



## Limoster

Much hype boys!!!
I received the package from Superbuy with the speakers!
I've been soldering them and trying them out. They all work nice.
I only need the custom PCBs to be delivered and I'll update with photos


----------



## bartzky

CJFreeman said:


> Anyone here familiar with Dreve Fotosil and Klarsil-H investment materials? I've done a ton of searching but I can't seem to figure out which is better for UV curing and if the negative molds created can be stored and reused. I emailed Dreve USA and Warner Techcare a day or two ago but have not got a response. Also, which gun and mixing tips from Warner would I need to use the cartridge version of those materials?
> 
> On a side note, I would like to thank everyone who has contributed to this thread. All the work you guys have done and subsequently shared has been invaluable.


I too am curious about Fotosil and Klarsil. I'd like to make a more persistent negative mold that can be reused several times. Does anyone have experience with this?


----------



## CJFreeman

bartzky said:


> I too am curious about Fotosil and Klarsil. I'd like to make a more persistent negative mold that can be reused several times. Does anyone have experience with this?



I talked to Dreve directly. For UV curing applications they suggest Fotosil. Fotosil is a fully cured silicone when its all said and done. It should last past the time the user would need a new ear impression (ear dimensions change over time.) Fotosil does have a low shore value, meaning it can tear easily, but so far I've handled mine with care and haven't had any issues. I take my time and don't force the impression or shell out. If you don't have a vacuum pot you need to make sure and get the injection gun and mixing tips or bubbles will be a big problem. I ordered mine from Warner Tech-care, but the injection gun I received was made by Westone so you can probably get everything from them if you are not signed up with Warner.


----------



## Mogol

Guys! Has anyone ever customized the UE TF10? 

Should vetns be closed or open on woofers? I could fill them with flux when I soldered. Or overheated with a soldering iron. One driver (half Sonion 33) sounded quieter than the other. I tried to clean the pad between the soldering pads and probably opened the vent. Now one pair of drivers (with open vents) sounds much louder than the other.

I made headphone measurements before breaking them. Now I try to repeat these measurements with open and closed vents. But they do not look like the previous ones. I'm confused =)

Also, I have to combine two drivers into one tubing (too narrow ear canal). Should I make any changes in the crossover, simplify it?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Well

New to this thread
I will be making a custom monitor

knowles GV-32830-000 with Knowles CI-22955-000

Are these drivers good

Well....my friends have some sophisticated equipment.

I will do a tornado equaliser tube (custom tubing) to remove any peaks or dips from TWFK

CI driver will be passed from restriction tubes like shure till it gives only subbass

0Hz to 150Hz- CI driver
150Hz to 2KHz - HODVTEC dual parallel
2KHz and above - TWFK

Tornado equaliser will kill peaks without using foam resistance. This is Ocharaku tech and I think I should use it in treble driver.

Aim is to reach neutral tuning with realistic treble and no roll Off bass.


----------



## Vetseun

Just received all my parts for putting together a set of universals with GVs.  I've see there are vents covered with tape on each BA... What is the general consensus in terms of removal? Would it benefit the bass?

Also, any tips on the easiest way to open up a set KZ in ears? I want to reuse the shells... anything more efficient than heating up the glue to loosen the back plate?


----------



## Mython

Further to this:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/home-made-iems.430688/page-285#post-12227679


UE are taking a rather different approach with one of their latest CIEM models:

http://pro.ultimateears.com/uelive


----------



## Xymordos

Interesting approach of UE. This should be like the approach of the Stage CIEMs - the response is less peaky with one large tube compared to several smaller ones imo.


----------



## Im1fan2nv

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Well
> 
> New to this thread
> I will be making a custom monitor
> ...



What is this tornado equalizer tube? If you don't mind me asking. I don't believe I've heard of that but it sounds very interesting for low end.


----------



## Im1fan2nv

Vetseun said:


> Just received all my parts for putting together a set of universals with GVs.  I've see there are vents covered with tape on each BA... What is the general consensus in terms of removal? Would it benefit the bass?


I've found that removing the tape gives better bass response.


----------



## bartzky

My first build 

2 BAs in universal shell.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

tomscy2000 said:


> ED-29689-000, measured with IEC-60318-4 (IEC-60711):
> 
> 
> Besides a drive voltage of 0.045 Vrms, the amplifier OI is 0.1 ohm.




well ED drivers have fantastic mids in a cross over design.


Get a dynamic bass driver 0-200hz
ED 29689 from 200hz - 2kHz
SWFK(neutral or trebly) of TWFK(mid centric) 2khz and rest.


----------



## MuZo2

bartzky said:


> My first build
> 
> 2 BAs in universal shell.


They look stunning, did you also make the shells?


----------



## bartzky

MuZo2 said:


> They look stunning, did you also make the shells?


Thanks! Yes, took a cheap KZ IEM as a starting point to create my own positive dummy shell. Crossover, tuning etc is all self-made. Also made the cable


----------



## dhruvmeena96

MuZo2 said:


> They look stunning, did you also make the shells?





bartzky said:


> Thanks! Yes, took a cheap KZ IEM as a starting point to create my own positive dummy shell. Crossover, tuning etc is all self-made. Also made the cable



Well @bartzky 

Nice work.

But the mids needs a 1dB-2dB boost there.

And please send me a 3D model of shell, if you have.

I will be making a universal iem.


----------



## galangerz

hi guys sorry I know I should've read this whole thread by now, but can anyone redirect me to instructions on simple reshelling, I won't be doing any custom crossovers or anything. just have an se215 and se530 not in use, and I wanna have a custom that I can beat around and not feel too bad about. 

thank you any help would be much appreciated!!


----------



## Ivan TT

Hi all!

Need your help, someone posted a shell with what appeared micro USB connection, with bullet shell style housing for (as I understood) crossover circuit some time ago.

Can anyone help me to find that post, can't find it for the life of me


----------



## Lucas Taboada

Hi everyone!

The Egger resin is more difficult to cure under a Nail UV chamber than Dreve Fotoplast? From what I've searched Taobao dealers have a much better price for Egger LP/H than Dreve in small quantities.


----------



## hasturo

Hi all!

first i would like to thank you for all the information in this huge thread. Ive bought my first ciem in 2015 here in Germany at a audiologist. Since then i use them every day at least 3-4 Hours. After a year or so, ive broken one of the shells and after some research ive got very lucky that the original manufacturer was willing to do a reshelling. But since then, i had a problem with some distortion, sometimes on one side, because the "Deal" was only about the shell.

It become very obvious that in the future i want to do my own set of ciem. Ive started digging around where in can get all the needed Stuff. So where im now in this Process. Ive bought a set at mcear. Some Silicon to build up the Form for the Shells, Housing, Nail Lamp usw. I get my Ear Impression from an audiologist but i think it was not big enough. Ive produced my first Shells and with these Testshells and some Drivers ive build the first "working" ciem without Bass 

I think that i run into more than one Problem. Because the Impression is so small, the mounted MMCX is too near to my head that it breakes the seal. The tubing is too long. Now im trying to find Measurement Gear to solve the technical issues. I have a lot to learn in building the shell because out of the form they are not good enough. Unfortunaly i could not find another supplier for Fotoplast except mcear. Maybe, if there is a seasonal offer, i place a order at custom-arts because the Shure in Ears, ive bought as a interims Solution, are okay but doesnt beat custom shells 

I can conclude that i have fun with this project and again, thank you all for this massive thread!
























Best Regards, Hasturo


----------



## Im1fan2nv

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Well @bartzky
> 
> Nice work.
> 
> ...




“But the mids needs a 1dB-2dB boost there.“

How might one obtain this?



Also, I can’t help but ask, where is everyone at? This place has slowed WAY down. Is there a different forum somewhere that I don’t know about?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Im1fan2nv said:


> “But the mids needs a 1dB-2dB boost there.“
> 
> How might one obtain this?
> 
> ...



Well, by changing driver configuration or by crossovers


----------



## ForceMajeure

Im1fan2nv said:


> “But the mids needs a 1dB-2dB boost there.“
> 
> How might one obtain this?
> 
> ...


I guess it's because everyone became a pro and don't need help anymore lol or most just gave up. My guess is that most people get busy with other things



hasturo said:


> Hi all!
> 
> first i would like to thank you for all the information in this huge thread. Ive bought my first ciem in 2015 here in Germany at a audiologist. Since then i use them every day at least 3-4 Hours. After a year or so, ive broken one of the shells and after some research ive got very lucky that the original manufacturer was willing to do a reshelling. But since then, i had a problem with some distortion, sometimes on one side, because the "Deal" was only about the shell.
> 
> ...


you could try to add a layer on the bottom of the impressions and then wax it. then use it has a mold. it would give you some height.
shape the bottom part with blue tak (although it doesn't stick well to silicone impressions. it depends on the brand). another choice would be to use some glazing compound like DAP 33. I know many guys use it in the industry for the same task.


----------



## Im1fan2nv

ForceMajeure said:


> I guess it's because everyone became a pro and don't need help anymore lol or most just gave up.



I have that feeling too. Probably not far from the truth. Too bad, much lost experience..
Good to know you're still here.


----------



## FlyinUte

Lacking the patience or skills to make my own shells, I had counted on the availability of quality SLA-printed shells from Luke at Vibro Labs while I researched the driver recipe I wanted for my first DIY customs.  Long story short, I went back to his DIY earphone store a couple days ago and he's no longer offering the shells! Sooo...anybody know of another source for SLA-printed shells?


----------



## Ivan TT

FlyinUte said:


> Lacking the patience or skills to make my own shells, I had counted on the availability of quality SLA-printed shells from Luke at Vibro Labs while I researched the driver recipe I wanted for my first DIY customs.  Long story short, I went back to his DIY earphone store a couple days ago and he's no longer offering the shells! Sooo...anybody know of another source for SLA-printed shells?


There's some on Shapeways, this one is by one of forum members (I believe):
https://www.shapeways.com/product/BUTQDRFEA/earphone-shells-op2?optionId=63577542&li=marketplace


----------



## Andrumgt

FlyinUte said:


> Lacking the patience or skills to make my own shells, I had counted on the availability of quality SLA-printed shells from Luke at Vibro Labs while I researched the driver recipe I wanted for my first DIY customs.  Long story short, I went back to his DIY earphone store a couple days ago and he's no longer offering the shells! Sooo...anybody know of another source for SLA-printed shells?


I could print you a pair, but you’re so far though, I am in Europe...


----------



## Firedrops

Ivan TT said:


> There's some on Shapeways, this one is by one of forum members (I believe):
> https://www.shapeways.com/product/BUTQDRFEA/earphone-shells-op2?optionId=63577542&li=marketplace



Haha that is indeed my design. Feel free to ask any questions or PM for the sldpprt/stl files if you have a local printer/want to fiddle around.

Also, someone (probably another forum member here) gave me a very good idea of incorporating screws to be used instead of adhesives, for more tuning flexibility, I'll be working on those in July or so (busy with school for now). I'm also considering increasing BA slots for another TWFK/SWFK, RAB, or BK.


----------



## Ivan TT

Of course another member, it's a close-knit little DIEM community we have here! 
I've got something suitable for my plans from taobao, but will revisit your design later on, after I complete current project.


----------



## kmmm

Hi. I have som GV drivers and will start my first build. I have a question regarding tubing and dampers; I have Ø2mm/1,2mm and Ø3mm/2mm tubing. Some recommend 1,2mm only to connect to the drivers and then 2mm for the rest (Vibro) and others use 2mm only for the damper (1,2 - 2 - 1,2) what are your experiences?


----------



## Lucas Taboada

kmmm said:


> Hi. I have som GV drivers and will start my first build. I have a question regarding tubing and dampers; I have Ø2mm/1,2mm and Ø3mm/2mm tubing. Some recommend 1,2mm only to connect to the drivers and then 2mm for the rest (Vibro) and others use 2mm only for the damper (1,2 - 2 - 1,2) what are your experiences?



I wanna know that too, from what I've read the bigger the tube diameter, more highs you will have, but I don't have much experience in that. I would also like to know how everyone go about testing the best damper for each driver, where to place them for easy change and etc..


----------



## hasturo

ForceMajeure said:


> you could try to add a layer on the bottom of the impressions and then wax it. then use it has a mold. it would give you some height.
> shape the bottom part with blue tak (although it doesn't stick well to silicone impressions. it depends on the brand). another choice would be to use some glazing compound like DAP 33. I know many guys use it in the industry for the same task.



Thats a good hint! Ive tried this with some Play Doh but without a good result 

This week ive got 2 new sets of Impressions. One set to play with and one goes to Custom Arts


----------



## Lucas Taboada

Anyone know if the Dreve Fotoplast/Egger LP/H is flammable? I can't get any shipping agent to ship it to Brazil, the only one that its willing to send its asking if is flammable, because if it is they can't ship


----------



## bartzky

Lucas Taboada said:


> Anyone know if the Dreve Fotoplast/Egger LP/H is flammable?


Datasheet S IO


----------



## Makahl

kmmm said:


> Hi. I have som GV drivers and will start my first build. I have a question regarding tubing and dampers; I have Ø2mm/1,2mm and Ø3mm/2mm tubing. Some recommend 1,2mm only to connect to the drivers and then 2mm for the rest (Vibro) and others use 2mm only for the damper (1,2 - 2 - 1,2) what are your experiences?



Even though that's from Sonion you can get some idea from the measurements: https://cymbacavum.com/2014/03/26/sonions-acupass-technology-making-things-easier-for-everyone/2/

I personally like to use 1.2 - 2 for highs *spoiler* and the woofer if you're going to use red/yellow or higher damper shouldn't be a problem. 



Spoiler












--

Guys, I've been seeing a lot of builds using Knowles dampers backward I'd imagine that cause an influence in the resonances peaks but I don't know exactly the effect, does anyone has a measurement about that?

I'm using dampers like that:


Spoiler


----------



## bartzky (May 4, 2018)

@Lucas Taboada: McEar just told me the Dreve Fotoplast is allowed to be shipped by plane and sent me the safety datasheet.


----------



## FlyinUte (May 6, 2018)

Posted this in the InEarz Custom Remold Owners Thread, but reposting in here as the DIY crowd seem to pretty much be the most knowledgeable folks on the board when it comes to CIEMs and possible building flaws--and the knowledge gleaned here will most certainly apply to my own custom builds.

So I had a pair of TF10s reshelled at the end of last year before InEarz got out of the reshelling biz. They turned out fantastic, and I'm mostly happy with them. Mostly.
The fit was fine for the most part, though after a few months with them I think the ear canals are a bit too long and are pushing against bone. My main issue with them is that when performing, the highs get muffled as my jaw articulates, despite having used a bite block when my impressions were made. Both IEMs suffer from it, though it's more pronounced with the right one. The problem, I *think*, is that instead of being aimed at my eardrum, the sound tube for the tweeter is pointed pretty much into the wall of my ear canal. Were it the low/mid tube I don't think I'd have much of an issue but with the highs, they pretty much need a clear shot at my eardrum, right?

Thinking this is worth asking InEarz to redo them, just wanted to run it by the hive mind here to see if I'm off base.


----------



## Andrumgt

FlyinUte said:


> The problem, I *think*, is that instead of being aimed at my eardrum, the sound tube for the tweeter is pointed pretty much into the wall of my ear canal. Were it the low/mid tube I don't think I'd have much of an issue but with the highs, they pretty much need a clear shot at my eardrum, right?
> 
> Thinking this is worth asking InEarz to redo them, just wanted to run it by the hive mind here to see if I'm off base.



That is not the problem.

PS: I also replied to your earlier post about 3d printed shells.


----------



## FlyinUte

Okay, so what is the problem? 

I saw your previous post, you seemed reluctant due to the distance.


----------



## piotrus-g

FlyinUte said:


> Posted this in the InEarz Custom Remold Owners Thread, but reposting in here as the DIY crowd seem to pretty much be the most knowledgeable folks on the board when it comes to CIEMs and possible building flaws--and the knowledge gleaned here will most certainly apply to my own custom builds.
> 
> So I had a pair of TF10s reshelled at the end of last year before InEarz got out of the reshelling biz. They turned out fantastic, and I'm mostly happy with them. Mostly.
> The fit was fine for the most part, though after a few months with them I think the ear canals are a bit too long and are pushing against bone. My main issue with them is that when performing, the highs get muffled as my jaw articulates, despite having used a bite block when my impressions were made. Both IEMs suffer from it, though it's more pronounced with the right one. The problem, I *think*, is that instead of being aimed at my eardrum, the sound tube for the tweeter is pointed pretty much into the wall of my ear canal. Were it the low/mid tube I don't think I'd have much of an issue but with the highs, they pretty much need a clear shot at my eardrum, right?
> ...


In my opinion the positioning of the tubes shouldn't be a problem. 

Muffling might be cause by increasing pressure or just change of the shape of your ear canal.


----------



## hasturo

Hi all.

I would like to know what Measurement Equipment do you use and what did you pay for it? Most of the information ive found so far is for Company's and the arent telling the price's or some Asian Reseller Stuff where nobody knows if they are talking about a complete set or only some part of it.

Best Regards, Hasturo


----------



## Lil' Fish

FlyinUte said:


> Posted this in the InEarz Custom Remold Owners Thread, but reposting in here as the DIY crowd seem to pretty much be the most knowledgeable folks on the board when it comes to CIEMs and possible building flaws--and the knowledge gleaned here will most certainly apply to my own custom builds.
> 
> So I had a pair of TF10s reshelled at the end of last year before InEarz got out of the reshelling biz. They turned out fantastic, and I'm mostly happy with them. Mostly.
> The fit was fine for the most part, though after a few months with them I think the ear canals are a bit too long and are pushing against bone. My main issue with them is that when performing, the highs get muffled as my jaw articulates, despite having used a bite block when my impressions were made. Both IEMs suffer from it, though it's more pronounced with the right one. The problem, I *think*, is that instead of being aimed at my eardrum, the sound tube for the tweeter is pointed pretty much into the wall of my ear canal. Were it the low/mid tube I don't think I'd have much of an issue but with the highs, they pretty much need a clear shot at my eardrum, right?
> ...



Please email me Kaysen@inearz.com and we can figure out what the issue is.


----------



## Jedrula1

tomekk said:


> Haha,
> By the way - my test kit after last update. Startech USB Card, WM61A with DIY amplifier on Nichicon capacitors. Cables hmm....



Tomekk (Cześć!  ) and hello everyone! 
Just finished reading all of almost 500 pages - very impressive. I have made dozen CIEMS pairs already. Now it is time to measure and improve them. 
Where I can find the scheme of the DIY amplifier with Nitchicon caps that you have mentioned? What is advantage of using this type of amplifier rather than normal amplifier in audio interface?
And second one - what is the best way to place and connect the WM-61A inside the coupler? Do you have some DIY link to tutorial of measurement kit, especially coupler? These mentioned earlier are with 404 error already. 
Dzięki  !


----------



## BigBublik

bartzky said:


> My first build
> 
> 2 BAs in universal shell.



Wow. It looks great. Please send me 3D model, if you have one. Thanks.


----------



## tomekk

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/fos...d-measurements.618659/#user_DIYMeasurementKit

http://www.johncon.com/john/wm61a/

For some reasons I can only provide you with links. Elo


----------



## bartzky

BigBublik said:


> Wow. It looks great. Please send me 3D model, if you have one. Thanks.


Everything's handmade, so no 3D model unfortunately...


----------



## Jedrula1

tomekk said:


> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/fos...d-measurements.618659/#user_DIYMeasurementKit
> 
> http://www.johncon.com/john/wm61a/
> 
> For some reasons I can only provide you with links. Elo



Thank You Tomekk! What is the best size for the PVC (maybe silicone?) pipe for DIY coupler - 1" 1/2" or 1/4"? Also what should be internal volume of the coupler - 0.4 or 0.6 cm^3? I have found that GRAS coupler has 1/2" ID and 0.4cm^3 of inner velocity.


----------



## cyph3r

I have some spare original Estron XT-ESW litz wires (2 cm, pretinned, red) for sale. PM me if interested.


----------



## macglide

Hi,

I also started recently and would like to use a wooden faceplate, because I really like the look of the ones you guys already made!

I already searched the thread but I couldn't find a protocol how to make them. I tried to cover a piece of veneer on both sides with Acryl to glue it afterwards onto the shell, but the Acryl didn't really bind to the veneer. Does anybody have any suggestions how to do it properly? 

Thanks


----------



## Jedrula1

macglide said:


> Hi,
> 
> I also started recently and would like to use a wooden faceplate, because I really like the look of the ones you guys already made!
> 
> ...



Hi!
I just place some veneer on glass or other flat surface and carefully cover it with thin layer of resin, then cure (be careful with air bubbles!). Rotate it upside down and repeat. Then use some 1000/2000 water sandpaper just to make sure that both your iem and and veneer with resin are flat and then glue it with resin and spot cure lamp, transparent two-component glue or come cyanoarylate glue, but this one without 'bad' fumes that will makes our iem white inside (didn't tried - I know that Loctite has the good one). After that grind and sand everything together and after all thin layer of transparent lacquer.  That technique works good for me. Of course you have to do some good grind and sand work to make faceplates look stunning.


----------



## NaiveSound

Does anyone here make custom tips for universal iems , my girlfriend wants to get her feet wet.


----------



## Lucas Taboada

NaiveSound said:


> Does anyone here make custom tips for universal iems , my girlfriend wants to get her feet wet.



I wanna know if someone have a good process for this too, I have some friends that asked me if i could do it and I have no idea how


----------



## Vetseun

Would someone mind point me to some good quality MMCX cables?  There are loads on Aliexpress, but I'm not sure when decent quality stops and where snake-oil begins...


----------



## NaiveSound

Thread is dead


----------



## Jedrula1 (May 22, 2018)

NaiveSound said:


> Thread is dead


I hope not. Still waiting for Shilohsjustice tutorial...


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Hello all, I’m am still alive and building!! More than ever in fact...... it’s a long time coming but I have been working on the tutorial. Long long over due, I started a new job which has my time split very thin between builds and work.


----------



## Xymordos (May 23, 2018)

Well for fun I made a 22 driver universal IEM outta cheap secondhand drivers and an XL universal shell from Taobao. Though the frequency response curve turned out to be horrid (man it was hard to tune it), it actually sounded really really good...odd.

Unfortunately one of the bass tubes in the right driver was pressured a little causing a minor imbalance in the bass, but luckily this wasn't too noticeable.



Spoiler


----------



## Jedrula1 (May 23, 2018)

Xymordos said:


> Well for fun I made a 22 driver universal IEM outta cheap secondhand drivers and an XL universal shell from Taobao. Though the frequency response curve turned out to be horrid (man it was hard to tune it), it actually sounded really really good...odd.
> 
> Unfortunately one of the bass tubes in the right driver was pressured a little causing a minor imbalance in the bass, but luckily this wasn't too noticeable.
> 
> ...


Fun! Very bassy.

Just started experimenting with measuring easy CI+ED setup.  CI to 1mmID 40mm long tube +10ohm resistor (red graph) , ED to 2mmID 15mm long tube (blue graph). At the frequency response there is a big lack of 1,5k, and lower amount of low frequencies (yellow graph). Phase issues? After reversing polarity on CI or ED there is even bigger lack of low freqs.





After adding 2.2uF capacitor in series to the ED (pink graph) the situation is better. But i think there could be some polarity issues. What do you think?






BTW. Measurements made on DIY 2cc coupler with Panasonic WM-61A microphone and 12v amplifier based on Nichicon capacitors. Without any correction curve. Do you think is pretty accurate?


----------



## Xymordos (May 23, 2018)

The bass looks normal for a CI + 10ohms honestly. You could try shortening the tube and adding a larger resistor (or a cap for a low pass). Otherwise, you can wire the ED half-wired through the middle tap to increase the HF output. I'd suggest a white damper on the ED if you want to smooth out those peaks though.

Edit: just saw that this wasn't on a 711. Though I think the treble is too low compared to proper measurements, I don't understand enough to comment.


----------



## Mogol

Jedrula1 said:


> Just started experimenting with measuring easy CI+ED setup. CI to 1mmID 40mm long tube +10ohm resistor (red graph) , ED to 2mmID 15mm long tube (blue graph). At the frequency response there is a big lack of 1,5k, and lower amount of low frequencies (yellow graph). Phase issues? After reversing polarity on CI or ED there is even bigger lack of low freqs.





Jedrula1 said:


> After adding 2.2uF capacitor in series to the ED (pink graph) the situation is better. But i think there could be some polarity issues. What do you think?



Jedrula1, 
I think that such results are normal for the chosen setup. I mean the length of the tube for CI and the value of the capacitor for ED. According to my measurements, CI at this length of the tube no longer "sounds" near 1.5 kHz. At the same time, the ED even without a capacitor does not yet sound efficient at 1.5 kHz.
I would recommend reducing the length of the tube for CI to 20-15 mm. And increase the value of the capacitor to 0.68uF. If I'm not mistaken in HE such a value. 
My setup is described on page 490 =)

Few pics:


----------



## Merkurio (May 23, 2018)

I really want to learn how to make my own custom IEM from scratch, starting with the shell making process, to the electronics parts (drivers selections, crossovers and all the terms involved), the tuning phase and final testing.

Do you guys recommend some resources that you had used in order to get deeper into this?

My actual knowledge about the topic is nearly zero, but I really want to learn.

Thanks in advance.


----------



## Jedrula1

Merkurio said:


> I really want to learn how to make my own custom IEM from scratch, starting with the shell making process, to the electronics parts (drivers selections, crossovers and all the terms involved), the tuning phase and final testing.
> 
> Do you guys recommend some resources that you had used in order to get deeper into this?
> 
> ...


Hi! This whole thread is really good. I have literally read whole almost 500pages. A lot of important information is here. Good luck in creTing your first CIEMs


----------



## Furco

Merkurio said:


> I really want to learn how to make my own custom IEM from scratch, starting with the shell making process, to the electronics parts (drivers selections, crossovers and all the terms involved), the tuning phase and final testing.
> 
> Do you guys recommend some resources that you had used in order to get deeper into this?
> 
> ...





Merkurio said:


> I really want to learn how to make my own custom IEM from scratch, starting with the shell making process, to the electronics parts (drivers selections, crossovers and all the terms involved), the tuning phase and final testing.
> 
> Do you guys recommend some resources that you had used in order to get deeper into this?
> 
> ...




I wrote this based on this thread a few years ago.  Still fairly relevant: 
"Home-Made IEMs" forum Definitive DIY Guide:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jU37oWefx2dGS8dWw5TVkugEtwJh_bh3fuUBNe2HrQg/edit?usp=sharing


----------



## Merkurio

Furco said:


> I wrote this based on this thread a few years ago.  Still fairly relevant:
> "Home-Made IEMs" forum Definitive DIY Guide:
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jU37oWefx2dGS8dWw5TVkugEtwJh_bh3fuUBNe2HrQg/edit?usp=sharing



Wow, that's a serious and comprehensive reading!

Thanks a lot, I'll read everything and if doubts arise, you will have me asking around here.


----------



## Jedrula1

Mogol said:


> And increase the value of the capacitor to 0.68uF



Increase or decrease? I have already 2,2 uF. 
Also i have some problem with calculations. There is well known formula: fc = 1/(2*pi*R*C). For ED-29689 R equals its impedance equals 10,2ohm @1k. The capacitor added equals 2,2uF. This should give me the calculated cutoff frequency at 15,6kHz. On the graph (pink one) the rolloff starts at about 2K. What am I doing wrong with calculations?


----------



## Mogol

Jedrula1 said:


> Increase or decrease? I have already 2,2 uF.



Oops, I thought you were using 0.22 uF. Sorry.



Jedrula1 said:


> Also i have some problem with calculations.



Yeah, I'm embarrassed too. Maybe start believing in conspiracy theories =) I also would like to understand what I'm doing wrong, but for now I'm selecting RC parameters experimentally.


----------



## piotrus-g

Jedrula1 said:


> Increase or decrease? I have already 2,2 uF.
> Also i have some problem with calculations. There is well known formula: fc = 1/(2*pi*R*C). For ED-29689 R equals its impedance equals 10,2ohm @1k. The capacitor added equals 2,2uF. This should give me the calculated cutoff frequency at 15,6kHz. On the graph (pink one) the rolloff starts at about 2K. What am I doing wrong with calculations?


Typical balanced armature drivers have exponential impedance curve. Unless you try to calculate 1kHz cut-off frequency that value is useless for any other calculations. For the 2.2uF the cut off frequency should be around 2,4-2,5kHz


----------



## Jedrula1

piotrus-g said:


> Typical balanced armature drivers have exponential impedance curve. Unless you try to calculate 1kHz cut-off frequency that value is useless for any other calculations. For the 2.2uF the cut off frequency should be around 2,4-2,5kHz



So it is better to base on measurements than calculations that are not too much accurate?


----------



## piotrus-g

Jedrula1 said:


> So it is better to base on measurements than calculations that are not too much accurate?


build yourself impedance measuring rig, if you can't, just measure. You should quickly get an idea what cap should give you what result.


----------



## Xymordos

I feel like it's such a pain to calculate the actual figures for the caps/resistors that it's faster to do it by trial and error haha


----------



## Jedrula1

piotrus-g said:


> build yourself impedance measuring rig, if you can't, just measure. You should quickly get an idea what cap should give you what result.



Cool! I will try. 



Xymordos said:


> I feel like it's such a pain to calculate the actual figures for the caps/resistors that it's faster to do it by trial and error haha



That's very true - it is the easier way. But I think, I could be wrong, that the key to build proper earphones is to understand what is actually happening inside your CIEM, including impedance


----------



## kubig123 (May 24, 2018)

Vetseun said:


> Would someone mind point me to some good quality MMCX cables?  There are loads on Aliexpress, but I'm not sure when decent quality stops and where snake-oil begins...


I would suggest the Effect Audio Ares II, it's one of my favorite and very well built.

There are few for sale:
https://www.head-fi.org/search/9805...o]=0&c[p][sonnb_xengallery_photo][aperture]=0


----------



## Shilohsjustice

I started working on a pair of shallow canal in-ears. Wax dip, ✅ !


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Materials....... Rose Gold Glitter and Pink Fotoplast make for a fun combination!!


----------



## Shilohsjustice

And we are ready to go;


----------



## ForceMajeure

Shilohsjustice said:


> And we are ready to go;



Those are smaller diameter investment cups 

I see you are back to Dreve's now


----------



## Mogol

Shilohsjustice said:


> Pink Fotoplast



Dreve produces pink? Or did you paint the Fotoplast? And what dyes is the master using now?


----------



## Jedrula1

kubig123 said:


> I would suggest the Effect Audio Ares II, it's one of my favorite and very well built.
> 
> There are few for sale:
> https://www.head-fi.org/search/9805...o]=0&c[p][sonnb_xengallery_photo][aperture]=0



Link is incorrect. 



Mogol said:


> Dreve produces pink? Or did you paint the Fotoplast? And what dyes is the master using now?



I think that the most popular dyes right now are Tim Holtz Alkohol Ink. Also this is what Shilohsjustice used to use in the past with great results.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Mogol said:


> Dreve produces pink? Or did you paint the Fotoplast? And what dyes is the master using now?



I have to mix colors to achieve pink. I will mix a little red and blue Fotoplast to get violet. I’ll fill my mixing cup with clear, add a small amount of red Fotoplast and add a small amount of the violet to get pink. 

When I’m doing other colors I have been using UV Curable Printer Ink, and alcohol ink.


----------



## Lucas Taboada

Shilohsjustice said:


> When I’m doing other colors I have been using UV Curable Printer Ink, and alcohol ink.



With this kind of ink the curing time increases significantly? Are you using the lacquer to make it skin-safe instead of just buffing or this ink is ok to use without lacquer?


----------



## Mogol

Lucas Taboada said:


> With this kind of ink the curing time increases significantly? Are you using the lacquer to make it skin-safe instead of just buffing or this ink is ok to use without lacquer?



The coating protects the shell from small scratches, makes "skin-safe", and gives the surface a smooth shiny look. So the use of laсquer is desirable in any case if we want to get a good product. Just watch the video of UM, UE, or QDC on Youtube.


----------



## Mogol

A couple of words about dyes. I recently did a customization for my friend. He asked for one faceplate of green and the other white translucent. 

I used Ranger Alcohol Ink for green and it was very hard to get it to harden. Even if the mixture is completely transparent. I was forced to apply thin layers one by one and cure. But when sanding the surface was like a slice of tree - rings, small steps. Fortunately lacquer well hid these shortcomings.

Quite another story with white. I used Mixol pigments (German guys - it's next to you). First - you need a very small amount of pigment to paint acrylic, even to an opaque form. Second, the material hardens much better. I also applied layer by layer method, but at some point, I realized that it is not necessary. It was possible to polymerize the required amount of material at once. And there were no layers when sanding, it was a whole piece of "plastic". 

If I'm not mistaken here already wrote about the difference between chemical dyes and pigments. About how this affects the penetration of UV light. Maybe it matters. In the future, I plan to experiment with black pigment and try to make not only faceplate but also shells. Opaque or translucent.

A couple of pics: Mixol and the end result.


----------



## Jedrula1

Mogol said:


> it was very hard to get it to harden.


What resin you are using?


----------



## Mogol

Jedrula1 said:


> What resin you are using?



Egger LP/H.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Here is some pics of the pink project......

Hodrocolloid investment.

 

Fresh out of a glycerin bath. 
 

Testing drivers.


----------



## Shilohsjustice




----------



## duo8

Not entirely about DIY but I though people in here might know.
What are some effective ways to deal with 7khz peak?


----------



## NaiveSound

I wish someone made custom tips for universal iems 

A


----------



## ForceMajeure

duo8 said:


> Not entirely about DIY but I though people in here might know.
> What are some effective ways to deal with 7khz peak?


try the "teabag" mod. cut a layer of teabag, place it between the eartip and nozzle so it's basically a filter that will tame the peak. try 1 -2 or even 3 layers and see how it goes.


----------



## Choy Wei De

Xymordos said:


> Well for fun I made a 22 driver universal IEM outta cheap secondhand drivers and an XL universal shell from Taobao. Though the frequency response curve turned out to be horrid (man it was hard to tune it), it actually sounded really really good...odd.
> 
> Unfortunately one of the bass tubes in the right driver was pressured a little causing a minor imbalance in the bass, but luckily this wasn't too noticeable.
> 
> ...



Do you mind share link for the shells?


----------



## Xymordos

Choy Wei De said:


> Do you mind share link for the shells?



Unfortunately the guy who sold me these stopped producing them. I wasn't able to find shells of this size afterwards...Also, regular sized ears won't be able to wear them. My girlfriend can't actually fit these into her ears since they're way too big and stick out too much.


----------



## Andrumgt

NaiveSound said:


> I wish someone made custom tips for universal iems
> 
> A


For the proper amount of cash, I would print you out a set.


----------



## ForceMajeure

Xymordos said:


> Unfortunately the guy who sold me these stopped producing them. I wasn't able to find shells of this size afterwards...Also, regular sized ears won't be able to wear them. My girlfriend can't actually fit these into her ears since they're way too big and stick out too much.


Gimme your ears. that would certainly be handy as I currently try to stuff so much drivers in mine haha


----------



## nocchi

Do you think this cheapo laser engraver good enough for starters like me to engrave shells?


----------



## Jedrula1

Really wanna do some kind of 'subbas' extension using sonion 3800 vented. What is the better way to strengthen lo freq (below 200Hz) - long tube 1ID with one or two 4700 ohm dampers or second order low pass filter? Or both solutions?


----------



## NaiveSound

Andrumgt said:


> For the proper amount of cash, I would print you out a set.


I pmed you. 

Anyone else?


----------



## NaiveSound

I have custom earplugs (silicone) 

I'd like to ruin them and make custom tips for a universal iem,  I've never done anything like this before

Will the *hole*/bore of the cut out ear plug change the sound of my iem? 

No iem company makes custom tips for these iems. 

I just want a canal tip to fit sturdy around this iem.

Please help, guidence is most appreciated 

I sure wish someone could just make it for me for $


----------



## ForceMajeure

NaiveSound said:


> I have custom earplugs (silicone)
> 
> I'd like to ruin them and make custom tips for a universal iem,  I've never done anything like this before
> 
> ...


yes the width and length of the bores will probably change the sound slightly. you could do it yourself if you don't fear of "ruining" the silicone impressions in case it doesn't work out. you just need to cut the impressions about here 



do the cut in steps so you can check the length you want. then use a small bit to create a bore and use wider bits slowly until you get at least a 3/4mm diameter bore. on the back side enlarge the hole slightly so it accommodate the nozzle of your iem. you could always make it wider and use a shrink tube so it fits the diameter of your iem's nozzle and glue the shrink tube in your custom tip


----------



## NaiveSound

ForceMajeure said:


> yes the width and length of the bores will probably change the sound slightly. you could do it yourself if you don't fear of "ruining" the silicone impressions in case it doesn't work out. you just need to cut the impressions about here
> 
> do the cut in steps so you can check the length you want. then use a small bit to create a bore and use wider bits slowly until you get at least a 3/4mm diameter bore. on the back side enlarge the hole slightly so it accommodate the nozzle of your iem. you could always make it wider and use a shrink tube so it fits the diameter of your iem's nozzle and glue the shrink tube in your custom tip


You are such a major help, I really really really appreciate it. 

Here are a few more pictures, would you mind drawing a line at different angles to show me where to cut.  Also how do I drill, with a powered drill bit?


----------



## Makahl

Guys, out of curiosity has anyone tested the B-7000 glue? I've been surfing through some Chinese DIY pages and this glue apparently it's pretty popular out there. I was going to buy Loctite 495 as suggested by @Shilohsjustice but the B-7000 is considerably cheaper here in my country.


----------



## macglide

Hey,

I've made a couple of shells so far but I allways get some roundish indentations, maybe a 1/10th of a millimeter deep. (See attached photo, I outlined the structures)






I rinsed the forms after removing the impressions, but I let them dry for a couple of hours upside down to make sure that no water is left inside.

Do you guys have an idea what would cause this?


----------



## Choy Wei De

Makahl said:


> Guys, out of curiosity has anyone tested the B-7000 glue? I've been surfing through some Chinese DIY pages and this glue apparently it's pretty popular out there. I was going to buy Loctite 495 as suggested by @Shilohsjustice but the B-7000 is considerably cheaper here in my country.



I used it on my first pair, which is also my current one. My best explanation is that it’s like a very slow super glue. And the adhesive is between a superglue and normal glue. I leave it overnight to let it completely harden. But it will become jelly like or softer once you mix it with water.


----------



## ForceMajeure

NaiveSound said:


> You are such a major help, I really really really appreciate it.
> 
> Here are a few more pictures, would you mind drawing a line at different angles to show me where to cut.  Also how do I drill, with a powered drill bit?


You'll need a dremel for drilling  at least and I recommend using these kind of diamond burrs 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




make sure you start with a small one and enlarge the whole slowly. regarding were to cut you should aim to something like this

















here you can see how it should sit in your ear.











This is the major part that will make the seal. If you cut it too short you'll loose your seal. That's why you should cut it slowly and check.


----------



## NaiveSound

OK will do, idk what I should get off amazon as far as tools and if they work ok with the silicone I have. 

Would you be kind to link me up something affordable on Amazon??


----------



## NaiveSound

ForceMajeure said:


> You'll need a dremel for drilling  at least and I recommend using these kind of diamond burrs
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Aditionally  the tia fourte has very small bore. How should I build my tip considering the bore of the iem? 

Here is a picture to show how small the bore is


----------



## leapof

macglide said:


> Hey,
> 
> I've made a couple of shells so far but I allways get some roundish indentations, maybe a 1/10th of a millimeter deep. (See attached photo, I outlined the structures)
> 
> ...


That's because there is air between the shell and the negative during the curing process


----------



## robervaul

Anyone?
Mini SLA Resin 3D Printer 

https://www.monoprice.com/Product?p_id=21824&seq=1&format=2


----------



## chaturanga

Can someone share best online sites to buy original high quality dynamic drivers?

I am looking for 9mm or 10mm drivers  (Titanium or Gold diaphgrams).

Thanks.


----------



## cyph3r

robervaul said:


> Anyone?
> Mini SLA Resin 3D Printer
> 
> https://www.monoprice.com/Product?p_id=21824&seq=1&format=2



looks pretty cool, but careful, the devils are in the details
-> i could not readily find many reviews on this, I would wait on for more experience with this machine. 
-> max resolution and printing speed may only be applicable under certain circumstance
-> small form factor will mean a small tray which in turn limits the amount of printing capacity.
-> it says it's good for printing medical / dental models. However, biocompatibility not requires a particular resin quality but usually also a postcuring step with a validated UV chamber. Otherwise you may risk skin problems with standard resins, which can partly be avoided by additional coating with a skin compatible material.  
-> handling liquid UV resin on your desk without additional safety measure may not be healthy (check out the MSDSs, like this one https://downloads.monoprice.com/files/certificates/30837_MSDS_171205.pdf). you will need personal protective equipment and ventilate the area very well.


----------



## ForceMajeure (Jun 10, 2018)

NaiveSound said:


> Aditionally  the tia fourte has very small bore. How should I build my tip considering the bore of the iem?
> 
> Here is a picture to show how small the bore is


I think I explained it before. anyway you should use shrink tubing. Place it over the nozzle of your iem and heat it until it forms a tight bond (be careful not to melt your iem...), remove from the tip and use it inside your custom eartip. Glue it in there after you enlarged the outer side enough so it fits there.
Because the shrink tube is rubbery it will create a rather tight connection with the nozzle of the iem.

One thing you need to consider is that with this kind of eartip you are making, the iems will stick out of the ear more than with reagular eartips.

For it to be more "encapsulated" you need to create a sleeve ti,p kinda like a semi custom iem tip. this is probably something you will not be able to do though. also a sleeve will only fit one iem only because it will merge with the inner contours of the iem it was done for.

Regarding the tools. I have no idea what you have on hand. Also because you have never done this before there is a good chance that you might actually ruin the silicone eartip you currently have trying to drill it no t carefully enough.

You need a set of 30 diamond burrs for a dremel. it should be around 10usd.

this looks good. get the one with a shank of 2.35mm diameter and not 3. make sure your dremel has a 2.35mm chuck for the head also

this looks good https://www.aliexpress.com/item/30-...p-Grinding-Alloy-Cylindrical/32744304261.html


----------



## macglide

leapof said:


> That's because there is air between the shell and the negative during the curing process



Thanks for your reply! Do you have a suggestion, how to avoid them? I always try to pour the acryl slowly and without trapping air.


----------



## NaiveSound

ForceMajeure said:


> I think I explained it before. anyway you should use shrink tubing. Place it over the nozzle of your iem and heat it until it forms a tight bond (be careful not to melt your iem...), remove from the tip and use it inside your custom eartip. Glue it in there after you enlarged the outer side enough so it fits there.
> Because the shrink tube is rubbery it will create a rather tight connection with the nozzle of the iem.
> 
> One thing you need to consider is that with this kind of eartip you are making, the iems will stick out of the ear more than with reagular eartips.
> ...




Thank you so so much


----------



## ForceMajeure

Another subject I have been asked over pm'ed recently quite a few times.
"How to make clear shells that will look clear and not get a slight yellow tint (usually due to over exposing under uv during lacquering)"

Although the yellow tint comes down a bit after a few days/weeks due to natural exposure to blue light in the light spectrum (the yellow tint from the resin will come down more than the yellow tint from uv lacquer...).
There is a "trick" for those who still want to use lacquer and not the tedious work of sanding and buffing.

The "trick" is to use a tiny bit of purple in the mix of clear resin. The ratio should be about 20ml clear mixed with using 5-6 drops from a tooth pick of purple "dyed resin" NOT dye!. the dyed resin should have enough purple (you can mix red and blue dye to get the hue)

Once cured the shell will have a very very slight hint of purple in there that actually can make it look more clear. After being lacquered, under natural lighting conditions it will look clearer and not have that yellowish hue. The hint of purple will counter act the yellow effect when actual light refracts from the shells


----------



## Jedrula1

Got some good news for those that are in Europe and have problem with getting Egger or Dreve resin, or is just too expensive. There is a company called Bachmaier that produces resin future-tec UV/H. It is slightly cheaper than Egger or Dreve. In comparison to Dreve Fotoplast, the Bachmaier is more viscous and, when clear, a little bit more yellowish.  The polymerysation time is slightly shorter. The wall thicknes is a little bit less constant. Is bubble-free - after mixing with dye should stay alone for 3-4 hours, and all bubbles disappear. When it comes to the final effect the shell made with Bachmaier resin looks really good, almost as good as Dreve. 

Also, how many drops of alcohol ink do you add to the resin to get good colour and not to have problems with curing? After adding alcohol ink to fotoplast the curing is almost impossible.


----------



## MuZo2

[QUOTE=" Bachmaier is more viscous and, when clear, a little bit more yellowish.  [/QUOTE]

Where do you buy it? is it available to private persons or only to labs?


----------



## Jedrula1

MuZo2 said:


> Where do you buy it? is it available to private persons or only to labs?


Directly at the Bachmeier webpage. Just mail them and they should give you customer number and password. That is what I did and i have no company.
Here are some photos of CIEMs that I made using this resin:


----------



## tarhana

guys can you take a look at this impressions please?

https://imgur.com/a/yRDyQFH

they're my first impressions and my audiologist wasn't experienced with iem impressions.

do you think they're usable or do i need new impressions? inner shell looks decent but left one's faceplate looks small to me.

thank you!


----------



## Jedrula1

tarhana said:


> guys can you take a look at this impressions please?
> 
> https://imgur.com/a/yRDyQFH
> 
> ...


 
They are really decent and good enough. Of course you have to cut and shape them properly.


----------



## tarhana

Jedrula1 said:


> They are really decent and good enough. Of course you have to cut and shape them properly.



thanks man.

btw your iems look magnificent. both of them single ba?


----------



## Jedrula1

tarhana said:


> btw your iems look magnificent. both of them single ba?



Thanks dude!  One of them (blue faceplate) uses Sonion 26-E25WT02/9 module (it is 2-way module with Accupass technology). Second one is 1723WT03 module and 33AJ007i/9 added with my own crossover, so it makes it 4-driver 3-way earphone, but due to very small ear canal of customer there is only one soundtube.


----------



## rantng (Jun 13, 2018)

tarhana said:


> guys can you take a look at this impressions please?
> 
> https://imgur.com/a/yRDyQFH
> 
> ...



Snip the foam off and pop them back in your ears to see how they feel. You should be able to tell if there isn't a proper seal.


----------



## Andrumgt

rantng said:


> Snip the foam off and pop them back in your ears to see how they feel. You should be able to tell if there isn't a proper seal.



Great idea! NOT! 

Dont do that, your impressions are perfect, just trim them and you’ll be set to go.


----------



## tarhana

Jedrula1 said:


> Thanks dude!  One of them (blue faceplate) uses Sonion 26-E25WT02/9 module (it is 2-way module with Accupass technology). Second one is 1723WT03 module and 33AJ007i/9 added with my own crossover, so it makes it 4-driver 3-way earphone, but due to very small ear canal of customer there is only one soundtube.



interesting. accupass drivers have one sprout right? and how did you get your hands on sonion 

i will bother you guys last time i swear  (at least for impressions lol)

can you guys take a look please? i trimmed, now they fit my ears. nozzle feels little bit long, where should i cut them?

https://imgur.com/a/zhqxGrb


----------



## Jedrula1

tarhana said:


> can you guys take a look please? i trimmed, now they fit my ears. nozzle feels little bit long, where should i cut them?



After second bend - not too far. Your is just too long. Just leave 1mm or 2mm - will be enough. Somebody posted this picture on this forum before. Hope it will help you.


----------



## rantng

Andrumgt said:


> Great idea! NOT!
> 
> Dont do that, your impressions are perfect, just trim them and you’ll be set to go.



He had to snip off the foam anyway. And there’s absolutely no reason not to put them back in his ears. If they are loose then he won’t get a proper seal and the shell will be a bad fit and he’d have to start all over.


----------



## rggz (Jun 14, 2018)

Damn, I've got a pair of RABs but something went wrong, the bass is heavily distorted and everything else is fine. I thought that could be the tubbing or dampers problem, but even without tubbing the bass still pretty distorted.

I'm trying to figure out what I could have done to damage it and I remember to raise my iron solder temperature station because the tinned cable wasn't melting, maybe the iron too hot could've been the problem? That was like 2 taps (1sec) to solder it. Anyway... that sensation of burning money is horrible, but... move on now.


----------



## Jedrula1

Does anybody has the problem with Dreve Fotoplast and alcohol ink? There are two problems. First one - curing time. It is almost impossible to get a faceplate with decent thickness. Could It be a problem with curing unit (just two nail lamps connected into one, curing time of clear Fotoplast is around 80sec, no problem with good wall thickness)? Second one is visible at the photo below. After curing the shell coloured with alcohol ink in shadow (upper shells) colour is great (left side - Crimson, right side - Amethyst). But when shells are illuminated with sun or some light there is strange pinkish/orangish shadow (shells at the bottom). Looks really not good. 






The most surprising thing  is that Shiloshjustice uses the same colour (Amethyst) with a great results. What are your proportions, curing time and curing unit or some protips working with Fotoplast and alkohol inks?


----------



## vladstef (Jun 14, 2018)

rggz said:


> Damn, I've got a pair of RABs but something went wrong, the bass is heavily distorted and everything else is fine. I thought that could be the tubbing or dampers problem, but even without tubbing the bass still pretty distorted.
> 
> I'm trying to figure out what I could have done to damage it and I remember to raise my iron solder temperature station because the tinned cable wasn't melting, maybe the iron too hot could've been the problem? That was like 2 taps (1sec) to solder it. Anyway... that sensation of burning money is horrible, but... move on now.



I had the same issue. Mine was caused by dropping it on the floor from table. Tried to fix it by dropping it again and it ended up being worse. I laughed off my stupidity and then, I found a song where the distortion was happening at a certain volume - it was very quiet yet bass was distorted.
I started hitting it against the flat hard surface, holding the ba with one finger and slamming it on the table, obviously you need more fingers to hold it in the air but as you are pushing down, one finger is needed. It got worse again so I switched sides (one has the vent, other has model number - tried to keep the membrane inside horizontal). And voila, it started distorting at a higher volume. I started increasing the intensity of the whole process, sometimes I'd hold it a bit in the air and trust it down or I'd just poke it with my finger as strongly as I could - it would get glued to the underside of my fingertip enough to be slightly lifted with each motion of my finger, only to be slammed back to the table again.

It took me a solid hour of hitting the poor (im)balanced armature to death until it was fixed - to the point that it distorts at a higher volume compared to the other fully working side (only audible when a lot of sub bass at ear piercing volume is used).

I haven't read this thread fully but if someone somewhere did the same thing as I did, it would've been posted here. The only thing that I was not certain of is whether every small slam contributed to fixing of the driver or was it only the really hard ones that did the work - is there like a treshold of how much force you'd need to use to actually change stuff inside the BA. I must've hit the poor thing a thousand times, not exaggerating, tested it every 50 hits or so 


Feels good having a super power. Being the 'balanced armature whisperer' is making me hear things from these illusive designs, and I am not talking about distortion here. Sorry for terrible puns, had to be done


----------



## NaiveSound

I did something dumb. 

I wanted to make my own custom tips for a generic gym iem, playing around with those ear mold crap you can get on ebay for diy earplugs

Anyways I tried sticking the iem in it in my ear to mold the outside of the iem lol like an idiot. 

Well it didn't work out, but I managed to get some of the mold solution on the grill bore of the iem and slightly behind it now that it has hardened 

How do I get the behind the grill and in the grill solution out? 

A vacuum of sorts? Or what? Fml. I deserve it


----------



## rantng

NaiveSound said:


> I did something dumb.
> 
> I wanted to make my own custom tips for a generic gym iem, playing around with those ear mold crap you can get on ebay for diy earplugs
> 
> ...



I clean my IEMs/CIEMs every so often with a Jodi Vac


----------



## NaiveSound

Did a big no no, because I'm an idiot. I got one of those diy ear plugs you mix and shove in your ear. Then I put the iem inside it while it was fresh and now there is cured ear plug mold behind the grill in my iem

I probably deserved it. 

I can't Sent it in. 

Please help,  jodi vac barely worked. How do I take the grill off? Or what now? Is there a liquid I can put the tip of the iem in to break down the hardened ear plug mold and then remove?


----------



## ForceMajeure

Either take the grill out or pierce the silicone/foam with a thin needle (use a magnifying glass haha).although the particles will probably be trapped between the grill and driver, I doubt it will cause much issues soundwise once removed. but who knows....


----------



## Portofly

NaiveSound said:


> Did a big no no, because I'm an idiot. I got one of those diy ear plugs you mix and shove in your ear. Then I put the iem inside it while it was fresh and now there is cured ear plug mold behind the grill in my iem
> 
> I probably deserved it.
> 
> ...


You might be able to use hydrogen peroxide to soften it. My only concern is that it would bubble, and I'm not sure how well your BA drivers would like that. You might be able to just swab it with a q tip with a bit on there though.


----------



## Portofly

During one of my ramblings a c worker told me that The wizard's creations looked a lot like nail art done via "Water marble".  This got me thinking and looking around at how to do hydro dipping.  I figured that as long as you do a little sanding to get the overall size of the IEM down, you might be able to get away with a hydro dip and a layer of Lak3 over the top. Has anyone tried anything like this?  What paint/ nail polish do you think would be thin enough in consistency to get a good design without thickening the shell too much.  I'm planning on doing some experimenting with this and seeing if I can come out with anything cool. Any tips or ideas would be appreciated!


----------



## Jedrula1

Jedrula1 said:


> Does anybody has the problem with Dreve Fotoplast and alcohol ink? There are two problems. First one - curing time. It is almost impossible to get a faceplate with decent thickness. Could It be a problem with curing unit (just two nail lamps connected into one, curing time of clear Fotoplast is around 80sec, no problem with good wall thickness)? Second one is visible at the photo below. After curing the shell coloured with alcohol ink in shadow (upper shells) colour is great (left side - Crimson, right side - Amethyst). But when shells are illuminated with sun or some light there is strange pinkish/orangish shadow (shells at the bottom). Looks really not good.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Have to repeat this question. Anybody knows the answer? It is pretty big issue for me - hard to get good looking transparent colour shell without this ugly blurs.


Also, below there is the picture (best quality I found) of inks that JH Audio uses. Anybody knows these dyes? Cheers!


----------



## Portofly

Jedrula1 said:


> Have to repeat this question. Anybody knows the answer? It is pretty big issue for me - hard to get good looking transparent colour shell without this ugly blurs.
> 
> 
> Also, below there is the picture (best quality I found) of inks that JH Audio uses. Anybody knows these dyes? Cheers!


I have been using resin obsession with awesome results. They are resin based so they mix perfectly and they yield consistent and beautiful color.   Their ebay shop can be found here: https://www.ebay.com/usr/resinobsession?_trksid=p2047675.l2559


----------



## Lucas Taboada (Jun 21, 2018)

Anyone know how can I prevent my shells surface to become rough? like with tiny small bubbles.. I'm using dreve fotoplast, and already tried gelatin and agar for the negative. After the first cure I'm pouring the excess and filling with glycerin to cure again, then I'm doing the final cure emerging my shell in glycerin. Any tips?


----------



## sanekn (Jun 22, 2018)

The inks you show in the picture looks like those tatoo inks : https://www.onlinetattoowholesale.c...08d6e5fb8d27136e95/7/c/7colorsetskincandy.jpg

Hope it helps!


----------



## Jedrula1

sanekn said:


> The inks you show in the picture looks like those tatoo inks : https://www.onlinetattoowholesale.c...08d6e5fb8d27136e95/7/c/7colorsetskincandy.jpg
> 
> Hope it helps!


Yeah! Looks pretty similar. Gonna try them due to problems with alcohol ink  thanks!


----------



## sanekn

Jedrula1 said:


> Yeah! Looks pretty similar. Gonna try them due to problems with alcohol ink  thanks!


Yeah i just seached for "grasshole ink" and looked to picture section, looked similar haha  Don't forget to post those shiny results here!


----------



## Jedrula1

sanekn said:


> Don't forget to post those shiny results here!


Shure I will! Already placed the order. Thank you for your help!
The results will be in 2-3 weeks. Does anybody has a solution for my problem with alcohol ink?



Lucas Taboada said:


> Anyone know how can I prevent my shells surface to become rough? like with tiny small bubbles.. I'm using dreve fotoplast, and already tried gelatin and agar for the negative. After the first cure I'm pouring the excess and filling with glycerin to cure again, then I'm doing the final cure emerging my shell in glycerin. Any tips?



Did you use wax? Is impression after pouring agar material covered with sticked bubbles?  The proper procedure was described in this thread dozen times - everything matters.  Do not pour glycerin inside the shell after first cure. Flip the cast upside down and cure it again. Then carefully take the shell out (do not touch the inner surface of the shell) and dip it in glycerin - then cure again. Hope it will help you!


----------



## MuZo2

Portofly said:


> During one of my ramblings a c worker told me that The wizard's creations looked a lot like nail art done via "Water marble".  This got me thinking and looking around at how to do hydro dipping.  I figured that as long as you do a little sanding to get the overall size of the IEM down, you might be able to get away with a hydro dip and a layer of Lak3 over the top. Has anyone tried anything like this?  What paint/ nail polish do you think would be thin enough in consistency to get a good design without thickening the shell too much.  I'm planning on doing some experimenting with this and seeing if I can come out with anything cool. Any tips or ideas would be appreciated!



Yes search this thread people have done it before.


----------



## MuZo2

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/home-made-iems.430688/page-470#post-13803790


----------



## Lucas Taboada

Jedrula1 said:


> Did you use wax? Is impression after pouring agar material covered with sticked bubbles?  The proper procedure was described in this thread dozen times - everything matters.  Do not pour glycerin inside the shell after first cure. Flip the cast upside down and cure it again. Then carefully take the shell out (do not touch the inner surface of the shell) and dip it in glycerin - then cure again. Hope it will help you!



Yeah, I'm using wax and doing everything you said plus pouring glycerin inside the shell too, and from what i've understood i'm getting these bubbles when i'm dipping the whole shell into glycerin, they look ok before that.

I've found a Shiloh's post here where he wrote that he doesn't dip his shell into glycerin, just pour inside the shell, and if the seal between the negative and the shell stays intact it should be ok. I don't know if he's still doing that way, but I will give it a try.


----------



## Jedrula1

Lucas Taboada said:


> Yeah, I'm using wax and doing everything you said plus pouring glycerin inside the shell too, and from what i've understood i'm getting these bubbles when i'm dipping the whole shell into glycerin, they look ok before that.
> 
> I've found a Shiloh's post here where he wrote that he doesn't dip his shell into glycerin, just pour inside the shell, and if the seal between the negative and the shell stays intact it should be ok. I don't know if he's still doing that way, but I will give it a try.


It will be easier to help you if you upload a photo


----------



## Portofly

Hey, guys. Never run into this before, but I've got a set of GVs that I'm wiring up for a friend's set. Everything seems normal. TWFK is on the left side and I'm soldering them onto MMCX connectors (first time using).  With MMCX you do positive lead to the center post and the second to one of the corners correct?   one of them is working correctly and the other is getting no output from either side.  Any ideas on troubleshooting?


----------



## Squirg

Portofly said:


> Hey, guys. Never run into this before, but I've got a set of GVs that I'm wiring up for a friend's set. Everything seems normal. TWFK is on the left side and I'm soldering them onto MMCX connectors (first time using).  With MMCX you do positive lead to the center post and the second to one of the corners correct?   one of them is working correctly and the other is getting no output from either side.  Any ideas on troubleshooting?



Yes. Positive is the middle post and any other side is negative.  I usually clip the posts that I am not using to make it easier to solder. Double check solder points. Post a pic.


----------



## Portofly

Squirg said:


> Yes. Positive is the middle post and any other side is negative.  I usually clip the posts that I am not using to make it easier to solder. Double check solder points. Post a pic.


I'll toss one up when I get home. Though I think I may not have stripped  the litz well on this driver and may have just "tinned" the covering if that makes sense. for some reason I thought the wire was exposed, but I'm pretty sure that was a silly thought. I used a thicker wire on my last few builds, so for some reason it wasn't as obvious to me as it should have been.


----------



## Jedrula1

Got them already! Now gonna test, and see how they works. Looking the same as inks that JHaudio uses.


----------



## FlyinUte

The future of shell making?


----------



## Portofly (Jul 2, 2018)

https://imgur.com/a/STbSYWf#pHlqj2i





set of customs that I finished for a friend yesterday. Pretty excited with how they turned out. Still having a hard time making my sound holes pretty. I just hate the way that the tubing shows up in front and doesn't look like it blends with the rest of the shell. I'm open to suggestions! 

Now for the question. while I was setting the drivers in the shells, I had trouble keeping the tube for the low end from kinking.    I brought them to my buddy yesterday and he told me that it didn't sound like the low end was coming through correctly on the left side, so I took them home, preparing to cut them open, pull the drivers, re tube, and re shell them, but I knew that his ears were JUUUST similar enough to mine that I could shove them in and get a good seal. I tested them with a few songs that I'm familiar with, and then with a normal frequency response test (hearing only since I don't yet have a measuring rig) and I seriously don't hear a difference between the two.    situation mechanically is this. The one that he said wasn't "hitting" was the right side, but the one that may have a kink in the low driver tube would be the right.  Does this make sense? am I losing my mind? is it possible that when I was doing Lak3 I could have gotten a little in the tube and it could have worked itself out between when he heard them and when I checked on them?


----------



## AmG7

Hey guys I’m new in this post sorry for my english, I’m thinking doing a 1 driver set  for my first ciem so what do you guys think that driver could be 
My first thought was a CI-22955 because I want the low end and for what I read it could work so what do you recommend, and as a full 1 driver it’s recommended to do with or without dampers/crossover  also I don’t know where do I get the cable and the connectors (MMCX) 1 pin or 2 pin its just preference or has any advantages one over another  so  Westone ? eBay ? And what kind works best 
Thanks


----------



## Jedrula1

AmG7 said:


> Hey guys I’m new in this post sorry for my english, I’m thinking doing a 1 driver set  for my first ciem so what do you guys think that driver could be
> My first thought was a CI-22955 because I want the low end and for what I read it could work so what do you recommend, and as a full 1 driver it’s recommended to do with or without dampers/crossover  also I don’t know where do I get the cable and the connectors (MMCX) 1 pin or 2 pin its just preference or has any advantages one over another  so  Westone ? eBay ? And what kind works best
> Thanks



Hello there! First of all - use search option. Everything you asked was mentioned before dozen times.
In a nutshell - Ci is great for bass and mids but is lack of highs - look at the FR. Better way is to pay more and buy TWFK or GQ (two driver modules). GQ doesn't need a crossover, the TWFK needs simple one - lot of design was mentioned in this topic. With dampers you will get a better result (depending on what result you wanna get), I prefer 2pin sockets in my constructions due to better reliability, but it is harder to install them. MMCX has such a one specified position, where signal can disappear for the moment.
Fingers crossed for your first pair!


----------



## Portofly

Hey guys, I've been searching for a post on where to build up the IEM to get a good seal. I believe the author was Forcemajeure but I could be wrong. Its driving me nuts, and I've been searching for days.


----------



## ForceMajeure

Portofly said:


> Hey guys, I've been searching for a post on where to build up the IEM to get a good seal. I believe the author was Forcemajeure but I could be wrong. Its driving me nuts, and I've been searching for days.


ask me what you want to know here.


----------



## ForceMajeure

Jedrula1 said:


> Got them already! Now gonna test, and see how they works. Looking the same as inks that JHaudio uses.


Looking forward to see the results as well. If I am correct these will give you opaque colors. maybe I am wrong though


----------



## Jedrula1

Alright, big dye review time! Not so positive as I expected tho... I tested alcohol ink (well known on this forum) and Bloodline Tattoo ink (probably the same as  JHaudio use). 

First - Alcohol ink:
Mixed instantly. Without any problem. But there is first, and only one, but important problem -  at the top of coloured liquid resin there is a thin layer of reflecting dyed resin in ugly pinkish/yellowish/orangish strange colour. Tried to make proper photos using high quality camera - it was hard, but I hope you will understand what I am talking about. The colour of resin is slightly different than the dye itself, especially using 'State' colour - should be grey, the resin unfortunately turns green.  After curing (muuuuch harder and longer to get proper thickness shell) the shells are also with this ugly glow that is visible the most in sunlight. It is totally undesirable effect. I will be so grateful for all tips from people that are using alcohol inks what to do to prevent this effect. Photos:

Amethyst colour - very nice at the beginning (a drop dried on the paper), but this glow visible inside the uncured resin and shell as well...










Next the 'Crimson' colour. Same situation - ugly orangish blur in liquid and cured resin: 






And the worst result. The target was to get the smoky grey transparent shell end i get... grassy green... c'mon what i am doing wrong...






Then, the Bloodline Tattoo inks. Mixing - very hard. It is almost impossible to get transparent colour. The dye doesn't mix, only creates really small droplets inside resin. Cures very well tho. This dye is not proper to get transparent shell - as it is showed in the picture below the resin is covered with thousands small dots - unmixed dye. Didn't have time to test this dye to make opaque colours - will try it in the nearest future. 






All dyes was mixed with Dreve Fotoplast SI O, not covered with Lack 3. If anybody has any idea what to do to improve colouring transparent resin I will be very grateful. Also - all suggestions about other dyes are very welcome


----------



## ForceMajeure

regarding the glow like colors you get using the alcohol ink, my guess is that those dyes have a mix of colors in them and one of them is fluorescent reactant. meaning when part of the light spectrum hits it, the color you see will changed slightly. it's part of the color that was used. I had various dyes (not alcohol) and one of them was pink. that pink has a different color depending on where you look at it. it even had a fluorescent green/yellow tint, kinda of the same thing you are experiencing.

I don't think you can do anything about it. I guess parts of those alcohol dyes have those colors embedded in them.


----------



## Jedrula1

ForceMajeure said:


> regarding the glow like colors you get using the alcohol ink, my guess is that those dyes have a mix of colors in them and one of them is fluorescent reactant. meaning when part of the light spectrum hits it, the color you see will changed slightly. it's part of the color that was used. I had various dyes (not alcohol) and one of them was pink. that pink has a different color depending on where you look at it. it even had a fluorescent green/yellow tint, kinda of the same thing you are experiencing.
> 
> I don't think you can do anything about it. I guess parts of those alcohol dyes have those colors embedded in them.


Could be. It will be great to know wich alcohol ink is good, and wich is not. What dyes are you using with good result?


----------



## ForceMajeure (Jul 4, 2018)

Resin obsession worked great. I had good luck with chinese resin dyes from ebay as well as alumilite.
Of course curing times are way longer and on some colors it was very long (f.e yellow or orange that practically fight UV so it doesn't penetrate). Sometimes you could use slightly less and still it will look to have the same color in the end, especially once you placed a faceplate over it and it has components inside. That's why you can always try to dilute it in case you have too long curing times, especially on darker colors.

If I was to use alcohol ink, I would probably make them myself using sharpies and 95% alcohol (there are some tutorials on YT). At least I would be sure the color is the same as the sharpie. then I could try and mix them to obtain different colors.


----------



## Jedrula1

ForceMajeure said:


> I had good luck with chinese resin dyes from ebay as well as alumilite.


You are talking about alumilite that resinobsession sells?


----------



## ForceMajeure

yes.

If you don't mind to dive into taobao there are some dyes as well with many colors to choose as well.
But shipping liquids can be an issue depending on the forwarder used and amount


----------



## ForceMajeure

Speaking of taobao, I also had some from taobao that are good with many shades as well. they are oil based dyes (like most resin dyes) and they mix nicely.


----------



## AmG7

Jedrula1 said:


> Hello there! First of all - use search option. Everything you asked was mentioned before dozen times.
> In a nutshell - Ci is great for bass and mids but is lack of highs - look at the FR. Better way is to pay more and buy TWFK or GQ (two driver modules). GQ doesn't need a crossover, the TWFK needs simple one - lot of design was mentioned in this topic. With dampers you will get a better result (depending on what result you wanna get), I prefer 2pin sockets in my constructions due to better reliability, but it is harder to install them. MMCX has such a one specified position, where signal can disappear for the moment.
> Fingers crossed for your first pair!



Thanks Jedrula I decided to do a simple design with the CI for my first set, later I'll do the GQ or TWFK, depending on the sound that I get 

so where do you get the sockets and the cable? I was searching and I found this connectors I don't know if there a good 
https://es.aliexpress.com/item/West...32780056629.html?spm=a2g0s.8937460.0.0.rkzczT

And for the cable I''ll probably try the weston cable but is $40 any suggestion ?


----------



## Jedrula1

AmG7 said:


> Thanks Jedrula I decided to do a simple design with the CI for my first set, later I'll do the GQ or TWFK, depending on the sound that I get
> 
> so where do you get the sockets and the cable? I was searching and I found this connectors I don't know if there a good
> https://es.aliexpress.com/item/West...32780056629.html?spm=a2g0s.8937460.0.0.rkzczT
> ...



If waiting is not a problem for you, soundlink is a  pretty good source of all diy components. I used this sockets as well as cables that soundlink offers. For one driver build I don't think you will notice the difference...


----------



## Portofly

ForceMajeure said:


> ask me what you want to know here.


I'm looking for a sort of guide on what areas to build up with lak3 to ensure a good tight seal. Are there specific areas that you'd build up more than others on a piece that may be having sealing issues? 
Also, when doing buildup of certain areas, how do you ensure that the IEM still has a smooth finish, and doesn't end up looking like it has different layers?    I seem to remember running into a picture at one point with different areas highlighted, but I didn't save it, and now I can't seem to find it.


----------



## Portofly

Jedrula1 said:


> Alright, big dye review time! Not so positive as I expected tho... I tested alcohol ink (well known on this forum) and Bloodline Tattoo ink (probably the same as  JHaudio use).
> 
> First - Alcohol ink:
> Mixed instantly. Without any problem. But there is first, and only one, but important problem -  at the top of coloured liquid resin there is a thin layer of reflecting dyed resin in ugly pinkish/yellowish/orangish strange colour. Tried to make proper photos using high quality camera - it was hard, but I hope you will understand what I am talking about. The colour of resin is slightly different than the dye itself, especially using 'State' colour - should be grey, the resin unfortunately turns green.  After curing (muuuuch harder and longer to get proper thickness shell) the shells are also with this ugly glow that is visible the most in sunlight. It is totally undesirable effect. I will be so grateful for all tips from people that are using alcohol inks what to do to prevent this effect. Photos:
> ...



I've said it before, I'll say it again.  Resin obsession dyes are made for this. they are a little more expensive, but they mix PERFECTLY, leave your fotoplast transparent, and do not hinder curing. I highly recommend you try them even if you only grab one color, you WILL be pleased with the results. The shells in my profile pic are colored with them.


----------



## ForceMajeure (Jul 5, 2018)

Portofly said:


> I'm looking for a sort of guide on what areas to build up with lak3 to ensure a good tight seal. Are there specific areas that you'd build up more than others on a piece that may be having sealing issues?
> Also, when doing buildup of certain areas, how do you ensure that the IEM still has a smooth finish, and doesn't end up looking like it has different layers?    I seem to remember running into a picture at one point with different areas highlighted, but I didn't save it, and now I can't seem to find it.



Usually the way to go is to use a motorized turner (~15rpm is the right speed) and cover the all iem with lacquer in one go. let it turn without curing for 3-5 minutes and then cure under uv while it is still turning.
That is the way to go if you know there are no issues with the seal.


If you want to build up more layers you need to know where one is experiencing seal issues.

Now, the major part that is responsible for the seal is at the entry of the ear canal and before the second bend, but mainly the entry of the ear canal.

I don't recommend making build ups unless you know where one has an issue with seal.

Regarding build ups if you want to do them and want it to look like there is no additional layers, you'll need to do the build up area first, cure and add a final coat to the whole iem and cure again. this is the "easiest way".
Another way would be to add layers after a full cure but then you will need to buff them especially where the transition between added layers occurs, even then it doesn't always look clean to scrutinizing eyes.

Last thing, some build ups are better done with resin actually than lacquer. Lacquer could be too thin to add a significant layer in one go. Add a layer of resin where needed then cure, sand and then lacquer the whole iem.

Remember that sanding is your friend for all cases. You can always sand down with 600 grit even the lacquer and add lacquer again.


----------



## Im1fan2nv (Jul 6, 2018)

Makahl said:


> Guys, out of curiosity has anyone tested the B-7000 glue? I've been surfing through some Chinese DIY pages and this glue apparently it's pretty popular out there. I was going to buy Loctite 495 as suggested by @Shilohsjustice but the B-7000 is considerably cheaper here in my country.



I use the TP-2500 on AliExpress store name is NewNet. It's a UV cure and It works very very well especially for attaching the tubes to the drivers.


----------



## Lucas Taboada

Anyone here use red dental wax like this one to smooth impressions?





What temperature do you guys dip your impressions? I've tried Shiloh's suggestion at 55˚C but this wax its almost solid at this temperature, so I'm dipping around 65˚C but it gets too thick and the finished shells are hurting my ears. I only need the wax to smooth out my impression, because they already have a good fit but I'm having trouble with getting a even coat without bubbles and drops at higher temperatures than 70˚C.


----------



## ForceMajeure

Im1fan2nv said:


> I use the TP-2500 on AliExpress store name is NewNet. It's a UV cure and It works very very well especially for attaching the tubes to the drivers.


Does the TP-2500 cures to be hard as resin(has no flexibility) or does it cure a bit like silicone/rubber and is flexible?


----------



## tarhana (Jul 6, 2018)

Lucas Taboada said:


> Anyone here use red dental wax like this one to smooth impressions?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



i use similar wax, (different brand) I dip my impressions about 52-55 celsius. maybe you should buy another brand. if you're interested i can look up for mine's brand name.

btw guys what glue you recommend to bond tubing to drivers? i know people use loctite and bondic but i want something can hold up but easy to break apart for experimenting.


----------



## Im1fan2nv

ForceMajeure said:


> Does the TP-2500 cures to be hard as resin(has no flexibility) or does it cure a bit like silicone/rubber and is flexible?



It's a rubber type cure. It's used for touch screens on iPads and phones etc.


----------



## MuZo2

Lucas Taboada said:


> Anyone here use red dental wax like this one to smooth impressions?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I used similar wax, you will have to melt it at higher temperature to really get it liquid and let it cool to 55-60 deg and dip the impressions.


----------



## rantng (Jul 8, 2018)

Making another set of open mouth impressions right now (to send off for CIEMs. Major props to you guys for creating your own shells and then tuning & creating your own IEMs). I don't remember drooling this much the other times. Like seriously, I'm going to have to change my shirt.


----------



## Ivan TT (Jul 9, 2018)

rantng said:


> Making another set of open mouth impressions right now (to send off for CIEMs. Major props to you guys for creating your own shells and then tuning & creating your own IEMs). I don't remember drooling this much the other times. Like seriously, I'm going to have to change my shirt.


Same here, it's like magic well beyond my abilities alas.

Having said that there's an easy way into DIY, just built myself a pair of IEMs using these shells:






https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=557215622902 and RAB-32257, same drivers as in XR4 and Comet.

After peeling bass vent covers off and fiddling with eartips/fit I've got most amasing sound, including low-end extension on par with dynamic drivers. This set is quite source dependant, needs low impedance out though, pairing with Mojo is just lovely.

While I bought green filters too ended not using them, highs are just right to me. BA's are housed inside the shell in cut-off T100 silicone tip + about 3mm of tubing. 

Parts were about US $35 + delivery + agent fees, the only complaint I have is slight details congestion on louder sections.


----------



## tsito (Jul 20, 2018)

Drivers
8mm dynamic >> main-bass/mid-high
knowles ci-22955 >> bass/ main-mid
knowles 60500 >> mid/high

pics
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1EmhyUPsIUPOpQg1t7mhiUuF4Us8mnuAC
https://drive.google.com/open?id=17NUWtQp_UfYPvredt4riLhn5vndJnNSU
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1sTkWMFrkBGfeKM-GkWHKL2vSmxNUED80


----------



## Makahl

Ivan TT said:


> Same here, it's like magic well beyond my abilities alas.
> 
> Having said that there's an easy way into DIY, just built myself a pair of IEMs using these shells:
> 
> ...



For those that have a 3D printer machine, you can download an Etymoticish shape here for the same project. (white button)





Source, credits, and mini-tutorial in Japanese here.

Also, RAB-32257 isn't the ER4-XR's BA. I believe ER4-XR's BAs are custom RABs since the impedance of my ER4XR is ~45 Ohm and my RAB-32257 project is about ~25Ohm (but the same as the ER3-XR though). I ended up using the KZ ZS3's housing, in my opinion, the comfort is greater. Here's a pic before assembling it.


----------



## Lucas Taboada

Makahl said:


> Also, RAB-32257 isn't the ER4-XR's BA. I believe ER4-XR's BAs are custom RABs since the impedance of my ER4XR is ~45 Ohm and my RAB-32257 project is about ~25Ohm (but the same as the ER3-XR though). I ended up using the KZ ZS3's housing, in my opinion, the comfort is greater. Here's a pic before assembling it.



What damper did you use? or none?


----------



## Makahl (Jul 11, 2018)

Lucas Taboada said:


> What damper did you use? or none?



I've tried it with greens but highs sounded a bit lacking so using a lightweight acoustic material (like that) just to refine the 2kHz - 3kHz FR fixed this issue to me but YMMV.


----------



## Lucas Taboada

Makahl said:


> I've tried it with greens but highs sounded a bit lacking so using a lightweight acoustic material (like that) just to refine the 2kHz - 3kHz FR fixed this issue to me but YMMV.



Awesome! I have whites here, will definitely try them.

Anyone know a good way for trying dampers on CIEMs? I wanna hear them, not measure, and don't wanna tear apart a good shell if I don't like the result.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Mython said:


> Oh,
> 
> 
> 
> ...





piotrus-g said:


> Well, there's probably all you need to know in Sonion's brochure http://www.sonion.com/~/media/Files/Academy/Academy_ProAudio__DocCode_304_V_001_Web.ashx including answer to bold portion above.
> 1st order LPF can be made by resistor in series and cap parallel to the ground. Just like on scheme I posted few pages back (design no.1, for easier understanding).
> 
> I'm also quite sure there's some of this knowledge in @Furco's DIY guide.


The best response ever...

Actually all we need to know is BA ppt and crossover designs.

Recently, me and my friend were tuning a single BA to produce dynamic driver level bass by adding a miniaturised acapella horn with the mouth being 4.4mm


----------



## zeed

Hi there,
I was long time lurker, just ended reading 504pages!
Thanks all for your contribution: shiloh, piotr, furco, force majeure and all others!

I’m starting tinkering a bit with customs right now, can someone point me some taobao link for Bellsing drivers, 2pin connectors (socket and cables ones) and dampers?
I didn’t find any and dont speak chinese at all.
Thank you


----------



## Makahl

zeed said:


> Hi there,
> I was long time lurker, just ended reading 504pages!
> Thanks all for your contribution: shiloh, piotr, furco, force majeure and all others!
> 
> ...



Drivers: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gFl8N3JvOi8HQrZbn8zxRMClBfxPpoh4XvQlzPyCki0/edit#gid=0
2pins and cables you can get on aliexpress if you don't find it on taobao (soundlink sells it and I'd recommend TRN V10 cable for ~$7.50 just make sure you're buying 0.75mm socket)
I've been using http://www.yoybuy.com/en/ as an agent, works great.


----------



## zeed

Makahl said:


> Drivers: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gFl8N3JvOi8HQrZbn8zxRMClBfxPpoh4XvQlzPyCki0/edit#gid=0
> 2pins and cables you can get on aliexpress if you don't find it on taobao (soundlink sells it and I'd recommend TRN V10 cable for ~$7.50 just make sure you're buying 0.75mm socket)
> I've been using http://www.yoybuy.com/en/ as an agent, works great.



Thank you for the advice Makahl


----------



## Tulku1967

Hi CIEM makers!


I'm making a wireless CIEM. Electronics from a Muse5 wireless IEM.

The armatures were taken out of the Westone W4R.

I have listened to the frequencies of tone generator. I have a little problem.

It has neutral frequency response up to 7 kHz. Between 8 and 9 kHz, a very strong peak is heard.

The armatures (Dtec and Twfk) are connected in parallel, DTEC did not get any crossower, but TWFK got a 1 uF and a 4,4 uF capacitor. The 1 uF is between the two positive poles of the FK and the WBFK and 4.4 uF is in series after the WBFK postive pole.

In DTEC tube is red, in TWFK is brown damper.

Can I suggest something to reduce the 8-9 kHz peak? (Tonight, I'm trying to replace the red damper in the TWFK tube instead of the brown damper.)

Thanks in advance!


----------



## MuZo2

tsito said:


> Drivers
> 8mm dynamic >> main-base/mid-high
> knowles ci-22955 >> base/ main-mid
> knowles 60500 >> mid/high
> ...



Looks god, how do they sound and what crossover did you use?


----------



## Jedrula1

Just wanna say, that Resinobsessions dyes are so far the best in colouring Fotoplast. The bigest disadvantage is small amount of colours available. Got some problems with  getting black opaque tho - it is so hard to cure with proper wall thickness ...


----------



## zeed

These are really good looking!
How are you mixing these dyes?
Drop by drop in a bottle, then shaking them properly and waiting some time for the bubbles to settle?


----------



## Jedrula1

zeed said:


> These are really good looking!
> How are you mixing these dyes?
> Drop by drop in a bottle, then shaking them properly and waiting some time for the bubbles to settle?


No. Just pouring resin to the clear plastic cup, then adding dye drop by drop to get wanted color, and mix it using small stick. Than few hours of waiting is necessary to be sure that resin is bubble free.


----------



## Rabid86

Hello! I did not post here for quite some time, but I've just finished my universal in-ear headphones now. Some of you were curious about the design and the sound, etc. Here is a picture of the headphones (with a temporary cord) and a frequency-response curve of the sound.

To begin with, this is still a prototype, but a fully functional one. I have made the design in 3D (with Onshape) and then used the service of 3D-Hubs to print it in black resin. The result was very successful I think! But it still won't be in the same class as injection molding or other mass production techniques. However, it works very well for prototype use.

In the internal design, I only use a single driver (Knowles SR balanced armature) and an electronic filter in conjunction with an acoustic filter. This combination beats everything else I tested before, so I'm very pleased!

Now to the sound, I can only say that I am extremely satisfied! It's a crystal clear sound with a good 3D soundstage, as the sound both gets wide, deep and you can almost notice things up and down in the mix. The music becomes alive without being too intrusive. Very well balanced sound with very low noise, deep sub bass and very good high frequency extension. The only thing that's "bad" with these is that they are hard to drive. The volume has to be set high, so they are not the most easy to drive headphones, but works perfectly well for me with my phone. Because they isolate sounds so well it is almost like wearing a pair of earplugs.

If you look at the frequency curve, you may find it to be very strange, but that 6500Hz dip is very intentional. Unless the measured program or microphone is broken, that area needed to be removed. My ears would bleed from all the "S" sounds otherwise.

Thank you for all the help in this forum! I really appreciate it!

/Anders


----------



## alanwcruz

Jedrula1 said:


> Just wanna say, that Resinobsessions dyes are so far the best in colouring Fotoplast. The bigest disadvantage is small amount of colours available. Got some problems with  getting black opaque tho - it is so hard to cure with proper wall thickness ...



One trick I use to get totally opaque blacks is to apply a thin coat of solid black nail gel to the inside of the shell. I get great results.


----------



## Lucas Taboada (Jul 27, 2018)

Do you guys sand a good amount of these highlighted parts in your impressions?
I was just smoothing a little bit, but it is a little difficult to fit my shells in this part of my ears, then I saw a video from Alclair, where they cut this part straight. I think that could improve comfort but I'm afraid to sand/cut more and the CIEM become too loose, or this part doesn't have anything to do with that?  any thoughts?

Here's a image from 64audio where it seems that they smooth alot this part too:


----------



## MuZo2

Lucas Taboada said:


> Do you guys sand a good amount of these highlighted parts in your impressions?
> I was just smoothing a little bit, but it is a little difficult to fit my shells in this part of my ears, then I saw a video from Alclair, where they cut this part straight. I think that could improve comfort but I'm afraid to sand/cut more and the CIEM become too loose, or this part doesn't have anything to do with that?  any thoughts?
> 
> Here's a image from 64audio where it seems that they smooth alot this part too:



I notices the same, initial once always hurt in that area. I also saw some videos on internet and cut that section and its much better.


----------



## ForceMajeure

yes, overall I would recommend to make the cymba part straight and less pointy as well as thinner on the outside. this will lead to less discomfort and also doesn't affect the seal or fit.


----------



## Jedrula1 (Jul 29, 2018)

What is the best way to fix permanently 2pin socket in the shell? So far, I have used shell resin (S/IO) and drop by drop cure it around the socket, but this connection is not as much durable as I expect, and sometimes it is possible to break the thin layer of resin and press the socket inside the shell destroying all your work....


----------



## zeed

Did you try using some Loctite 495, the one also used to fix tubes to drivers?


----------



## Jedrula1

Never. Just S/IO from dreve. I prefer light curing glues.


----------



## zeed (Jul 29, 2018)

Try it, or if you prefer uv glues try something like Bondic: https://notaglue.com/
Edit: there is a specific glue from Dreve named Fotofix which is used to bond the faceplate to the shell and it cures under uv lights, it could be worth a shot


----------



## jbr1971

zeed said:


> Try it, or if you prefer uv glues try something like Bondic: https://notaglue.com/
> Edit: there is a specific glue from Dreve named Fotofix which is used to bond the faceplate to the shell and it cures under uv lights, it could be worth a shot



I second the Bondic suggestion. I used it for my build attaching tubes to drivers & shells, & clear faceplates. It worked great for me.

It's also pretty handy for other household fixes.


----------



## Vetseun

Hi,

I've finally received my final materials.  Could you guys please let me know if there are any problems with how I trimmed these impressions?  Are they "finished" sufficiently?

I can easily insert them, they sit comfortably in the ear and seal well.

Will be waxing before making the moulds.  Shells will be made with fotoplast.

Will the wax build up enough fill in the tip on the left impression?

Thank you!!


----------



## Jedrula1

Got a problem to solve. I have to make an ciem with very small ear canal - so small that it is impossible to have two soundbores. I have to connect one 1ID and one 2ID tube earlier into one 2ID tube. The total lengths are the same - why the freq responce is so different between 5khz and 8khz? The blue graph shows two separate soundbores (2ID 15mm long, 1ID 20mm long). The purple graph was measured with a usage of adapter (2ID 5mm long and 1ID 10mm long into 2ID 10mm long) - so the total length is the same. Have no idea what causes such a cavity in mid-high area. Any suggestions ?


----------



## vladstef (Jul 31, 2018)

Jedrula1 said:


> Got a problem to solve. I have to make an ciem with very small ear canal - so small that it is impossible to have two soundbores. I have to connect one 1ID and one 2ID tube earlier into one 2ID tube. The total lengths are the same - why the freq responce is so different between 5khz and 8khz? The blue graph shows two separate soundbores (2ID 15mm long, 1ID 20mm long). The purple graph was measured with a usage of adapter (2ID 5mm long and 1ID 10mm long into 2ID 10mm long) - so the total length is the same. Have no idea what causes such a cavity in mid-high area. Any suggestions ?



If you hadn't explained this, I would've thought that this is a demonstration of a damper of some sorts (maybe not a proper damper which has an effect starting from 1K). My guess is that you end up with less volume of air in the purple scenario that actually does have this effect. Perhaps using a slightly larger combined tube would work, maybe a 2.2-2.5mm ID 10mm long tube (which would change peaks in the end and might be even worse).

My second guess is that your bass driver went from 20mm 1ID tube to 10mm 1ID + 20mm 2ID which is obviously more air meaning a stronger treble from this driver (less damping). Because it reduced treble frequencies, it looks like your drivers are out of phase meaning that the increased treble from this driver actually reduces treble being put out from the other driver. - This is a wild guess and there is no way for me to know the kind of crossover and driver configuration you are using.

And one more probably completely wrong guess would be that that sound energy from treble driver doesn't fully enter your ear canal because some of it goes back to the bass driver once the sound gets to the point where it 'splits' towards ear canal and other driver.

Someone please educate me if anything I've said isn't logical, I am just trying to help with pretty limited knowledge. Also @Jedrula1 , keep updating us - especially what ended up being the real reason that was causing this.


----------



## Jedrula1 (Jul 31, 2018)

vladstef said:


> If you hadn't explained this, I would've thought that this is a demonstration of a damper of some sorts (maybe not a proper damper which has an effect starting from 1K). My guess is that you end up with less volume of air in the purple scenario that actually does have this effect. Perhaps using a slightly larger combined tube would work, maybe a 2.2-2.5mm ID 10mm long tube (which would change peaks in the end and might be even worse).
> 
> My second guess is that your bass driver went from 20mm 1ID tube to 10mm 1ID + 20mm 2ID which is obviously more air meaning a stronger treble from this driver (less damping). Because it reduced treble frequencies, it looks like your drivers are out of phase meaning that the increased treble from this driver actually reduces treble being put out from the other driver. - This is a wild guess and there is no way for me to know the kind of crossover and driver configuration you are using.
> 
> Someone please educate me if anything I've said isn't logical, I am just trying to help with pretty limited knowledge. Also @Jedrula1 , keep updating us - especially what ended up being the real reason that was causing this.




The drivers and crossover looks like:

-Sonion 3800 (connected in series) with lo pass 110ohm resistor in series and 10uF capacitor in parallel, 3300 ohm damper inside 1ID 20mm tube
-1723 Sonion Accupass module, 2ID no damper 20mm tube:
                                                   - Sonion 1700 with 20 ohm  resistor in series
                                                   - Sonion 2300 with 10uF capacitor in series conected in reversed phase

The FR os each driver with two separate tubes (Pink is 3800, green is 1700, yellow is 2300 and blue is a complete FR.








EDIT: So there is not too much chance to have phase issues between 3800 and 2300. There are not in phase, but the roll of of 3800 starts at 300hz.


----------



## vladstef

Jedrula1 said:


> The drivers and crossover looks like:
> 
> -Sonion 3800 (connected in series) with lo pass 110ohm resistor in series and 10uF capacitor in parallel, 3300 ohm damper inside 1ID 20mm tube
> -1723 Sonion Accupass module, 2ID no damper 20mm tube:
> ...



This is quite weird because the treble got quite a bit reduced once you've changed tubing. There is a pretty consistent drop in treble in 4.5 - 11K region of around 4-5dB and a new dip @8K. This 8K might be an anomaly where 3800 driver creates a really strong peak in this region due to a horn like effect introduced by increasing the tubing size - I've seen this happening a couple of times, just not with this kind of crossover + damper combination. The consistent drop in treble is probably due to 2300 losing energy, are you sure that nothing is blocking the tubing?

Ultimately, you will probably have to meassure individual drivers with new tubing which will be painful but might be worth it as it will save you the time.


----------



## Jedrula1

vladstef said:


> Ultimately, you will probably have to meassure individual drivers with new tubing which will be painful but might be worth it as it will save you the time.



Vladstef, That is exactly what i am going to do tomorrow. Nice remarks by the way  I will measure each driver individually with new, 2ID tubing - maybe this will give an answer where the problem is. I will post FR curves here as soon as possible


----------



## Jedrula1

Alright, got measurements. Each driver separate and all together.This is how the tubing looks like:






And here are FR curves:






So, the phase is not the problem - i think. The 2300 FR curve alone has the same issue - lower level between 2k and 8k, So the issue probably is in the tubing. But... why? The ID before and after in combined tube is the same (2ID).


----------



## vladstef

Jedrula1 said:


> Alright, got measurements. Each driver separate and all together.This is how the tubing looks like:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Very cool measurements and overall build. So now you know for sure that something is acting as a damper - it could be some glue inside tubing which I doubt. The more apprent thing would be that the short tube from 1723 is not really a 2ID tube because the tube might have reduced or elongated shape where it is pressured to fit inside the other 2ID tube. Small changes in shape can be more drastic than it looks.

Here is an idea that I had for a while now for my build (I've seen this done in a similar shape just more complex with more branches, I think it's one of Unique Melody IEMs). Tubing done in a form of tree branches, something like this:


You'd have a 15mm 2ID tube with a small hole on one side where you'd glue in the 10mm 1ID tube from 3800. I can't guarantee that it will fix your problem and it's probably not easy to do, but it would give your treble driver a completely unobstructed path. Having said this, you could probably modify your existing tubing to clear up the path a bit.


----------



## Jedrula1

vladstef said:


> Here is an idea that I had for a while now for my build (I've seen this done in a similar shape just more complex with more branches, I think it's one of Unique Melody IEMs). Tubing done in a form of tree branches, something like this:



Cool idea! How to make this connection permanent and reliable?


----------



## vladstef

Jedrula1 said:


> Cool idea! How to make this connection permanent and reliable?



The only thing that comes to mind is making the surface of tubes very rough near the connection and using ample amounts of uv glue in a few layers. This could work in theory but I've yet to try it. Cutting the 1ID tube at an angle and then perfectly replicating it on the other side as well as making sure that no glue gets inside the tubes while creating a perfect seal - almost sounds impossible.

Maybe fully penetrate the 2ID tube with a 1ID tube, glue it and then remove the unwanted remains of the 1ID tube inside the 2ID. I've no idea how I'd do the second part of this.

This is professionally done by using some sort of injection moulding on a micro scale which is extremely expensive even for mass production compared to regular tubing, but it makes assembly easy and fast.


----------



## Lucas Taboada

I'm having trouble to cure this part of my shells:

  

I'm curing for around 32s in a LED chamber that I've made:

 

If I let for 40-45s it cures a thin layer, and my walls gets too thick, some parts around 4-5mm.

Anyone know what it could be? Bad transparency in my negative mold maybe? Here's both materials that I've tried:

Gelatin:
 

Hydrocolloid/Agar from a company that sells for Hearing Aid labs here in my country:


----------



## alanwcruz (Aug 1, 2018)

Lucas Taboada said:


> I'm having trouble to cure this part of my shells:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




That used to happen to me too, now I do the following, I got a nail curing light with florescent bulbs, these bulbs cure much slower than LED's, so I place my gelatin mold on the bulb and cure for 30 seconds, then I place my led chamber on top of the bulb covering the sides of my mold and cure for another 20-30 seconds. So in total I get some 50-60 seconds of bottom up light from the bulb and 20-30 seconds of LED light from the sides.

Placing a mirror under your mold also helps if you can't get florescent bulbs.


----------



## Jedrula1

vladstef said:


> The only thing that comes to mind is making the surface of tubes very rough near the connection and using ample amounts of uv glue in a few layers. This could work in theory but I've yet to try it. Cutting the 1ID tube at an angle and then perfectly replicating it on the other side as well as making sure that no glue gets inside the tubes while creating a perfect seal - almost sounds impossible.
> 
> Maybe fully penetrate the 2ID tube with a 1ID tube, glue it and then remove the unwanted remains of the 1ID tube inside the 2ID. I've no idea how I'd do the second part of this.
> 
> This is professionally done by using some sort of injection moulding on a micro scale which is extremely expensive even for mass production compared to regular tubing, but it makes assembly easy and fast.



Doesn't seem to be reliable... But... gonna try and share results here!


----------



## jbr1971

Lucas Taboada said:


> I'm having trouble to cure this part of my shells......



I had that problem with the first couple sets I made. I placed a mirror flat on the table, then put my uv nail lamp on top so light would get reflected back up to that underside area. Worked great after that.


----------



## JoyjeetPanday

Hi, I am an audio dude from India and have just started digging down this rabbit hole and I just stumbled upon this website and the thread 2 days back.
So I made some custom sleeves for Shure SE series IEMs much like Sensaphonics.
Lately, I took a set of measurements using a DIY apparatus comprising of :

Test Subject ( Shure SE 425 + Comply Foam/ DIY Sleeves/ Sensaphonics Sleeves ) -> Silicone Tubing -> Beyerdynamic MM-1 -> RME BabyfacePro -> Smaart.






Trace Color Coding:
Pink - Shure SE 425 + Stock Comply Foam
Black - Shure SE 425 + Sensaphonics Sleeves
Blue - Shure SE 425 + DIY Sleeves

Solely judging by the data:
1. The coherence is insane and there's zero smoothing in either of the phase trace or FR plot. Am I measuring them too close such that I am only measuring the driver response?
2. The phase trace goes haywire beyond 7-8k. Starts taking place from 7k. Which again is being explained from the FR plot that there isn't enough data. Although while listening to them I can hear things beyond that zone but according to the measurement there isn't any significant data even-though the coherence is full. Is everything beyond 10k being absorbed by sleeves or anything in the measurement apparatus? Then again the SE 425s with comply foam are following the same trend. What am I doing wrong?
3. Is the data being affected by affected by the different attachments or am I nullifying them during measurement in someway?
4. Is there anyway to get colour options for soft shell mold? I am using Egger Flex A/B 40 Shore.

This thread is like the Bible for DIY IEMs and I'm lucky to have found this. This is my first post in the forum and I'd like to thank everyone who have contributed over the years in making such a comprehensive and vast amount of information.
Looking forward to a good start in an amazing community. Much love.


----------



## michal1315 (Aug 2, 2018)

Hi. I'm want to make my second diy iem and I'm need some advice. My first iem are based on ED29689 with red filter and for my taste it will by to much mid centric with lacking of bass and not as clean treble as I'm expected. In my second iem I'm want to use HE-31751 or GQ-30783 driver with universal shell and about them I'm have a few question.

1. How looks sound signature of HE-31751 is it as mid centric as driver in ER4P, I know that bass will be much better but peak at 2,5k scares me a little?
2. I'm want use HE driver with one sound tube,can it be possible with good results?
3. How HE will be work on mobile device like a smartphone with his 112 ohms impedance, my device is Xiaomi Mi6 with WCD9335 audio ic which has output 62.5mW at 16ohms?
4. How GQ sound compared to HE?

Thanks.


----------



## vladstef (Aug 3, 2018)

@Jedrula1 , so I've been doing some research about your problem (and potentially mine in the future). There are all kinds of tube connectors, medical grade and aquarium grade, that could potentially with minimal modifications solve your problem. I have yet to find the perfect one, but here is what I googled and the connectors that could potentially work. I've tried - vynil/silicone/pvc/flexible tubing connector/fittings. All kinds of connectors will pop up, many of which are even smaller than what we need.

Here are some examples:


Spoiler




Number 4, 5, 6 is the type of connector that could work - would just need to cut the ribbed parts to reduce the size of connector. Finding the 2mm ID one might be problematic.


This type works with OD of tubes, this specific one is for 2.5mm OD tubes which is way to small for 2mm ID tubes.


----------



## cjxj

Jedrula1 said:


> Got a problem to solve. I have to make an ciem with very small ear canal - so small that it is impossible to have two soundbores. I have to connect one 1ID and one 2ID tube earlier into one 2ID tube. The total lengths are the same - why the freq responce is so different between 5khz and 8khz? The blue graph shows two separate soundbores (2ID 15mm long, 1ID 20mm long). The purple graph was measured with a usage of adapter (2ID 5mm long and 1ID 10mm long into 2ID 10mm long) - so the total length is the same. Have no idea what causes such a cavity in mid-high area. Any suggestions ?


I recently made a set of CIEMs for someone with a very small canal. I was able to use some very thin walled stainless capillary tube from EBAY. Used 1mm id for dual bass drivers and 1.5mm id for the TWFK mid/high. Only had to use if for the last 1/2 inch or so. Tedious but worked out well.


----------



## Jedrula1

vladstef said:


> @Jedrula1 , so I've been doing some research about your problem (and potentially mine in the future). There are all kinds of tube connectors, medical grade and aquarium grade, that could potentially with minimal modifications solve your problem. I have yet to find the perfect one, but here is what I googled and the connectors that could potentially work. I've tried - vynil/silicone/pvc/flexible tubing connector/fittings. All kinds of connectors will pop up, many of which are even smaller than what we need.
> 
> Here are some examples:
> 
> ...



Cool! What is the best way to get this adapters?




cjxj said:


> I recently made a set of CIEMs for someone with a very small canal. I was able to use some very thin walled stainless capillary tube from EBAY. Used 1mm id for dual bass drivers and 1.5mm id for the TWFK mid/high. Only had to use if for the last 1/2 inch or so. Tedious but worked out well.



And how the FR curves changed after replacing silicon tubes with steel tubes?


----------



## JoyjeetPanday

Dulalala said:


> Thanks for the response but I think you're misunderstood what I meant. I'm not talking about 3D printing the shell of the IEM, I meant something like this...
> 
> 
> 
> I did try searching, but I'm not sure if I used the wrong keywords or of it hasn't been talked about much as I couldn't really find much about it.




Not quite sure about you're requirement, but I think something of this sort might solve your purpose. 

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Con...l?spm=2114.10010108.1000023.10.4ae04910mEVusa

Or these two links come with drivers, cheap ones. If you don't like how they sound just ditch them and use the housing.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/RUK...VVzv&aff_short_key=jiMVVzv&aff_platform=msite

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/KZ-...VVzv&aff_short_key=jiMVVzv&aff_platform=msite


----------



## Ivan TT

Ivan TT said:


> Same here, it's like magic well beyond my abilities alas.
> 
> Having said that there's an easy way into DIY, just built myself a pair of IEMs using these shells:
> 
> ...


Here's BOM with links if anyone is keen, actually the price may be around $40, I don't have tubing mentioned in the original post in my pair anymore.
https://pastebin.com/UKxcKt3e


----------



## tarhana

hi guys,

i'm currently experimenting shell process and having problem with negative mold. i use pink dental wax for waxing and egger's dublicant for negative mold. the problem is egger is freezing at 50 celsius and wax melts around that degrees too. so when i pour colloid on impressions wax flake off and scatters around. me and my friend made a brainstorm and thought about using lak on waxed impressions. anyone tried that before? or another solutions?


----------



## ForceMajeure

tarhana said:


> hi guys,
> 
> i'm currently experimenting shell process and having problem with negative mold. i use pink dental wax for waxing and egger's dublicant for negative mold. the problem is egger is freezing at 50 celsius and wax melts around that degrees too. so when i pour colloid on impressions wax flake off and scatters around. me and my friend made a brainstorm and thought about using lak on waxed impressions. anyone tried that before? or another solutions?


get another wax. there is a nice-fit red wax that is good for that purpose


----------



## Jedrula1

Just finished this pair. Four driver, three way crossover, just black opaque, but still looks stunning... i think


----------



## Lucas Taboada

Jedrula1 said:


> Just finished this pair. Four driver, three way crossover, just black opaque, but still looks stunning... i think



Did you used the Castin' Craft Opaque Liquid Pigment from Resin Obsession? It looks beautiful!


----------



## Jedrula1

Lucas Taboada said:


> Did you used the Castin' Craft Opaque Liquid Pigment from Resin Obsession? It looks beautiful!


Unfortunately not. I don't know how to get black opaque with just curing, without painting. I have used black dye from resin obsessions, but it is hard to get black opaque and cure it. So what i did, is to get the darkest possible smoke transparent colour, cure it to get a proper shell thickness, and then, after all assembly, faceplate and so on, cover it using spray gun with a thin layer of black paint. Then, after drying, cover everything with Lack 3. Effect is very good, i hope


----------



## Kiina

I've been searching and reading a lot and my goal would be to make some really great face plates. With like printed text or images (in color would be awesome) or maybe with clock parts. The left one as an example what I would want to achieve: https://twitter.com/64audio/status/934586028593102848

Anyone has advice on this? I heard I would need an UV plotter for this, maybe there is another way or someone with experience in this?


----------



## ForceMajeure

Kiina said:


> I've been searching and reading a lot and my goal would be to make some really great face plates. With like printed text or images (in color would be awesome) or maybe with clock parts. The left one as an example what I would want to achieve: https://twitter.com/64audio/status/934586028593102848
> 
> Anyone has advice on this? I heard I would need an UV plotter for this, maybe there is another way or someone with experience in this?




The big guys have very expensive UV printers that are capable of printing white base on acrylic and on top of it other colors with rather good resolution but even then most prints don't look that good IMO.
The simpler the design with less color gradients the better it looks usually 

Another option would be to use high quality decals. if done properly you could achieve almost the same result if not the same as you could place it on top the FP and add a layer of resin on top of it then sand it and lacquer
You could probably order some custom made decals, it would end up much cheaper than buying a UV printer.


----------



## FlyinUte (Aug 10, 2018)

Jedrula1, how do those feel in your ears? That's a really deep canal, most people don't go past the 2nd bend.


----------



## Kiina

ForceMajeure said:


> The big guys have very expensive UV printers that are capable of printing white base on acrylic and on top of it other colors with rather good resolution but even then most prints don't look that good IMO.
> The simpler the design with less color gradients the better it looks usually



Just out of curiosity do you know which printers would be capable of that and get a decent result? Probably out of the price range for such projects but would be interesting to see


----------



## Jedrula1

FlyinUte said:


> Jedrula1, how do those feel in your ears? That's a really deep canal, most people don't go past the 2nd bend.


This is not a pair for me. Probably you have not 100% correct information - the sound bores should pass the second bend. This impressions and ear canal shape was a little bit unusual, really long, curved and tight.


----------



## ForceMajeure

Kiina said:


> Just out of curiosity do you know which printers would be capable of that and get a decent result? Probably out of the price range for such projects but would be interesting to see



Look for flatbed uv printers. I remember the Roland Versa UV LEF series f.e, but those are printers that cost from 10k usd to 50k usd.


----------



## Jedrula1

What do you think, guys ? Four driver three way setup.


----------



## MuZo2

Jedrula1 you are now pro at CIEM making.


----------



## rendyG (Aug 21, 2018)

Hi guys, after doing a research (not only here) I want to build my first iem.
I would like to start with something cheap and simple: single BA in probably KZ ZS3 shell? (I read it is comfortable and afaik the cheapest shell with removable cable, but I´m open to your recommendations)
My biggest question is *which driver to use*. Either the old ED-29689 from ER4 or some of the newer RAB series? I like a neutral sound, but I think I may appreciate the slight bass boost of the RAB-332257 (ER4XR?), because I want to use these when commuting.
Other than that, is there anything else I need to buy? I have a soldering iron and basic soldering skills.
What about the *resistors, tubing and dampers?* I´ve seen the green 1500ohm recommended usually, but I´m not sure about the resistor, which one to choose and why.
I don´t think I need some epoxy or special glue for my first project.. afterall, I like to tinker with headphones and I just want to try and see what is possible in the "iem world".
I think I will buy the parts from Ali - Soundlink, seems like a reliable seller, right? If my first project goes well, I´m going to consider some multi-BA project, but in ready-made shell, at first.. 

Thank you for your help!


----------



## Caluub (Aug 21, 2018)

Hello everyone,

Is Loctite 495 better than other low viscosity Loctite formulations? Is there a particular reason to use 495?


----------



## Caluub

This is my attempt at a right ear impression. I was nervous about inserting the otoblock any further but I think it needed to be a few millimeters deeper. Is this a usable impression or do I need to go further beyond the second bend?


----------



## Ivan TT

rendyG said:


> I like a neutral sound, but I think I may appreciate the slight bass boost of the RAB-332257


These are amazingly good for the price and simplicity of making DIY IEM.
I remove tuning fabric on the bass port though, this gives them sweet bass uplift, essentially turning them into RAB-32033.


----------



## Vetseun

To the folks using Agar for their investment, any tips on getting the shells out without cracking the negative mold?

Tried my first shells tonight using clear fotoplast. First cure was a little short/shell too thin, second cure went much better and got really nice shell thickness and the shells came out nice and clear.  

 After I removed it from the alcohol I noticed 2 little hairline surface imperfections.  When I looked at the mold I saw it had split... so I have to redo that mold I suspect.  Any tips on avoiding it next time round?

Final questions... my process thus using clear fotoplast in a 4xCFL nail UV lamp.  1) 1:30min initial cure. 2) dump excess and put back in for a further 3 mins (shell is empty and opening is facing up so light gets into hole). 3) Take out of mold and put in glycerin bath - cure for 10 mins 4) into a alcohol bath to finish up.

Anything in the above against the latest thinking here? Any other tips?

Thanks!!


----------



## fahadj2003

quick question, whats a good replacement for sony's "supertweeter" ? ie something that can go beyond 20khz.
and every speaker can do 1hz to 20hz (and its noticeable) with the right amplification. but how does one go about doing that?
2 woofers of same kind, with same cut off, that superimpose and add to the lower end? or is there a way to make a mini-amplifier?
im trying to DIY something as flat as possible and as wide as possible, with respect to FR range.


----------



## Vetseun

First successful shells - I think?!  I'd appreciate some feedback on the clarity of these shells?  They look glass-like clear when wet (i.e. coming out of the glycerin), but they're not perfectly clear when dry.  

I guess I'm not sure what's possible, so not sure what should I be striving for?  Can these be improved on from a "straight out of the mold" point of view? Or are these good and the rest is down to finishing (i.e. polishing/lacquering) these shells?


----------



## Jedrula1

Vetseun said:


> First successful shells - I think?!  I'd appreciate some feedback on the clarity of these shells?  They look glass-like clear when wet (i.e. coming out of the glycerin), but they're not perfectly clear when dry.
> 
> I guess I'm not sure what's possible, so not sure what should I be striving for?  Can these be improved on from a "straight out of the mold" point of view? Or are these good and the rest is down to finishing (i.e. polishing/lacquering) these shells?


They looks pretty good right now. You really need some sanding and polishing or lacquer to get glass-transparent shiny shell. Best and easiest way is to get Lak3.


----------



## Vetseun

Jedrula1 said:


> They looks pretty good right now. You really need some sanding and polishing or lacquer to get glass-transparent shiny shell. Best and easiest way is to get Lak3.


Thanks! I've got some Lack3 on the way!!

Has anyone got any experience with Bellsing?  My first build will use Knowles GVs.  I noted yesterday that Soundlink now has this listed 5 driver listed - https://www.aliexpress.com/store/pr...arphones-Hearing-Aids/830007_32906331761.html

Looks like a GK type with an additional TWFK type.  Has anyone had any experience with this BA?  Looks intriguing!


----------



## dhruvmeena96

i was floored by Warbler Audio Prelude and Ocharaku iem recently(Co donguri kaede ti plus dual)

now i think i am going with only one driver iem.

tell me an amazing driver

warbler prelude has a Sonion 23xx(dont remember the exact no., but who cares, all sonion 23 series sound nearly the same) and from my point, the only con it had was the extension on both side. the tuning was amazing, and now i think i can sort of get that sort of tuning without the use of damper or resistors because i got inspired by ocharaku tech on dealing freq. which i am going to apply on BA


----------



## Squirg

Vetseun said:


> Thanks! I've got some Lack3 on the way!!
> 
> Has anyone got any experience with Bellsing?  My first build will use Knowles GVs.  I noted yesterday that Soundlink now has this listed 5 driver listed - https://www.aliexpress.com/store/pr...arphones-Hearing-Aids/830007_32906331761.html
> 
> Looks like a GK type with an additional TWFK type.  Has anyone had any experience with this BA?  Looks intriguing!


So far, I’ve had really good experiences with Bellsing. Their TWFK30017 seems to be spot on!


----------



## ThanosD (Aug 31, 2018)

So, I after reading A LOT of pages of this thread, I got inspired enough to create my own IEMs. I went with something simple, and as low cost as possible. However, because in Greece, things like photoplast, uv curing resin, and of course a way to buy BAs, and generally any drivers and random parts directly is practically impossible, I decided to try another method, with whatever was more easy to get my hands on. So, I made my shells for epoxy resin. I know its not the best material, as it's not medically approved, but I didn't show any kind of allergic reaction, so I went with it. However
you shouldn't use any kind of material that is not medically tested. I am responsible for myself and only for myself. You could really cause harm to yourself.

I got my impressions done by a professional of course, and then I made a copy of it using some dental grade silicone, as a close person to me was kind enough to provide some. The problem with this silicone was that it was too hard (like 50shore), and I ended up with the one impression destroyed. However, now I had the silicone mold.

Then I went on with the epoxy. The first try went horribly wrong. It seems my scale was a little bit off, and the casting ended up not hard at all. The second try, went substantially better. This time I got the measurements right, and added coloring. I also did the next step, carving out the inside of the shell with a dremel, and some diamond bits.



IMG_20180821_181345 by Thanos D, on Flickr






  However, I decided that I wasn't particularly happy with the result. The underside came out a little bit strange. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







IMG_20180821_181357 by Thanos D, on Flickr

 So I decided to do the process a third time, and this time I added just a little bit of blue dye, so that they would come out blue semi-transparent. The final result I thik was pretty good.




IMG_20180821_180130 by Thanos D, on Flickr




IMG_20180821_180139 by Thanos D, on Flickr

The only thing that I didn't manage to do was to polish the inside of the shells to make them transparent. The diamond bit left a too harsh finish, and if I were to sand it more, I would have gotten through the shell.

After the shells were done, it was time for the faceplates. As I wasn't using photoplast, I couldn't make them the normal way. So, I encased some celluloid (it is commonly used for guitar picks) in the same resin, but with no coloring this time. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







IMG_20180830_200542 by Thanos D, on Flickr
Then I dremeled away the excess and I finally had 2 beautiful faceplates 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 .




IMG_20180821_180346 by Thanos D, on Flickr




IMG_20180821_180212 by Thanos D, on Flickr




IMG_20180821_180202 by Thanos D, on Flickr

Then was time for assembling the internals. Unfortunately I don't have any photos of the internals, because I was so frustrated trying to fit in a 8mm, DD and the BA, that I forgot to take any. My choice was a 8mm DD from KZ for my woofer, and a Knowels ED-26784 for my mid-range/tweeter. I know these are probably not the best choices, but they were fairly cheap (bought from aliexpress), and this pair was more like a "proof of concept". So, I used a red damper and a 4.7Kohm resistor for my low pass filter, as the DD was full range, and no filter for the BA . I used acoustic tubing from ebay, sold as "BTE Hearing Aid Earmold Tube". For connectors, I went with MMCX, as I had a bad experience with the 2-pin from my KZ ZS3 (one of the connectors developed a small crack, and now the cable is barely held in place), and with a fairly cheap, but seemingly good quality mmcx cable from KZ again. The mmcx female connectors are right-angled, because I needed some extra grip.

The final result I think is pretty good. Sound wise, they sound surprisingly good, compared to the ZS3 and ATE at least. The soundstage is fairly wide, and it has GOOD seperation. I used them even for some Rainbow Six Siege sessions, and I was pretty amazed. Highs are good too, but a little bit harsh for my taste. The thing that I am most dissapointed with is the bass. I expected a good bass response because of the DD, but for some reason, there is very little. There is some mid-bass, but not much sub-bass. Maybe it's because I am used to the ZS3 bass heavy sound. But for my first time, I am pretty happy about their performance and how they turned out.



IMG_20180830_182830 by Thanos D, on Flickr



IMG_20180830_182934 by Thanos D, on Flickr



IMG_20180830_182848 by Thanos D, on Flickr



IMG_20180830_183214 by Thanos D, on Flickr



IMG_20180830_182801 by Thanos D, on Flickr







EDIT: How can I upload photos directly?
EDIT2: Sorry for the multiple edits, I am new around here.


----------



## stackleberg (Aug 30, 2018)

My first pairs of DIEMs. Took me a while to make and lots of trial and error but here they are!





https://www.dropbox.com/s/kuvb78lw67322sq/36639853_10155632081173404_2694860238984577024_n.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/o578lvpr2zocfbu/37173045_10155658336233404_8232952995009003520_n.jpg?dl=0


----------



## Ivan TT

Vetseun said:


> Thanks! I've got some Lack3 on the way!!
> 
> Has anyone got any experience with Bellsing?  My first build will use Knowles GVs.  I noted yesterday that Soundlink now has this listed 5 driver listed - https://www.aliexpress.com/store/pr...arphones-Hearing-Aids/830007_32906331761.html
> 
> Looks like a GK type with an additional TWFK type.  Has anyone had any experience with this BA?  Looks intriguing!


Thanks for heads up, at this price and with extra sale discount... Ordered!


----------



## MuZo2

ThanosD said:


> IMG_20180830_182801
> 
> EDIT: How can I upload photos directly?
> EDIT2: Sorry for the multiple edits, I am new around here.



Safety first, be carefully with what you put in your ear. Just use medical grade materials. You are responsible for yourself and also when you post here you should understand that others might follow your instructions blindly.


----------



## ThanosD

MuZo2 said:


> Safety first, be carefully with what you put in your ear. Just use medical grade materials. You are responsible for yourself and also when you post here you should understand that others might follow your instructions blindly.


I edited the original post to discourage anyone from using this material. I know this stuff is not supposed to be used for extended contact with skin. However, I did this more as a "proof of concept" as I previously said, and when I started the whole thing, mid-summer, I didn't have a way to obtain the proper materials. I am going to revisit the project next summer, as I found a shop from Germany with everything I need, and at reasonable prices, that can ship to Greece. But for now, studying reserves most of my time.


----------



## JoyjeetPanday

stackleberg said:


> My first pairs of DIEMs. Took me a while to make and lots of trial and error but here they are!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



How did you get the black and cream opaque shells? What dyes did you use.
Btw, they look amazing.


----------



## Xymordos

Wow Sonion developed an electrostatic tweeter for IEMs! Just saw the production IEMs coming out of the Chinese manufacturers.

http://audio.sonion.com/electrostatic-tweeter/


----------



## ThanosD

Guys, should I add a hole at the faceplate for the DD driver? Cause most of my earphones have a breather hole. Would this improve the bass response?


----------



## stackleberg

JoyjeetPanday said:


> How did you get the black and cream opaque shells? What dyes did you use.
> Btw, they look amazing.



It took so many tries for me to get the colours to work. I tried acrylic paint and UV resin dyes from ebay but my resin wouldn't cure. Later, I got a better UV light and tried acrylic ink and it worked like a charm. You need to experiment with how much you should put in. Put enough to make it opaque but not too much so that it won't cure.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

ThanosD said:


> Guys, should I add a hole at the faceplate for the DD driver? Cause most of my earphones have a breather hole. Would this improve the bass response?


You have to make vent on the faceplate or useatubing from back of driver which release back pressure somewhere


----------



## ThanosD

dhruvmeena96 said:


> You have to make vent on the faceplate or useatubing from back of driver which release back pressure somewhere


Hmm, yeah, this can be done. Will this improve the bass response?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

ThanosD said:


> Hmm, yeah, this can be done. Will this improve the bass response?


Vent in speaker application improve bass response directly. Here, the decay will tighten up and pressure distortion would be lowered making bass driver breathe a little more than closed back. This can let you hear depth of bass while improving texture and for some drivers, yes, it may boost the LFE(low frequency extension)


----------



## ThanosD (Aug 31, 2018)

Thanks a lot for the help. In next days, when I find some spare time, I will implement a vent and post the results. I just need to find a good way to do it. I saw that some people have done it with the back side of jean studs. Should I add a mesh to the vent too?


----------



## Choy Wei De

Hi everyone, I have been lurking around for months. And I finally make one IEM with a universal shell successfully that suit my preference.


I have been testing and tuning my IEM using my iPhone 6S, I don’t own a frequency analyser. All is good until my friend tried it using his Note 8. And he said it’s super soft in loudness, he has to max his volume and still not loud enough.. And my another friend tried using his iPhone 6S Plus, he said it’s also very soft need to increase to 75% loudness instead of his usual 30-40%. I also use around 75% on my iPhone.


This is my set up:

ED 29689

11mm ID 1mm tube

13mm ID 2mm tube

Overlap by 2mm

Orange filter right at the end of 2mm tube at the nozzle opening.

15mm positive wire from mmcx connector to 18ohm resistor then 15mm positive wire to driver.

20mm negative wire from connector to driver


Does any of that causes the low volume?


----------



## zeed

Sure, the 18ohm resistor. You have doubled/tripled the impedance of the ED29689 (10ohm 500hz, 7ohm 1Khz).
Why did you use it since you are using only 1 driver?


----------



## Choy Wei De (Sep 1, 2018)

zeed said:


> Sure, the 18ohm resistor. You have doubled/tripled the impedance of the ED29689 (10ohm 500hz, 7ohm 1Khz).
> Why did you use it since you are using only 1 driver?



So I need to use either 10ohm, 20ohm, 30ohm or 7ohm, 14ohm and 21ohm?

I’m just copying some set up from the internet. And apparently using 18ohm roll of the highs quite nicely.

How much different would it make for using the right resistors?


----------



## zeed

Sorry but you misunderstood; I was saying that using a 18ohm resistor in series with an ED29689 driver means that the total impedance will be increased to around 30ohm instead of the original 7-10ohm.
You should try a lower value resistor (such as 4,7-8,2ohm) or just try using a cap without the resistor. I can't calculate now but a cap of around 0,1-0,3uF should work fine.


----------



## Choy Wei De

I understand, because I wanted to copy etymotic ER4 and modify from there. Does it mean ER4 also very soft because it using 50ohm and above? like ER4X and other variation.


----------



## JoyjeetPanday (Sep 10, 2018)

stackleberg said:


> It took so many tries for me to get the colours to work. I tried acrylic paint and UV resin dyes from ebay but my resin wouldn't cure. Later, I got a better UV light and tried acrylic ink and it worked like a charm. You need to experiment with how much you should put in. Put enough to make it opaque but not too much so that it won't cure.



Okay. Like Egger and Dreve etc are medically approved, wouldn't it be a problem to use acrylic paint? I have been thinking about this for quite a while as dye and acrylic paints a not really medical grade. Mostly they don't do any harm but probably not approved. Not sure about it. I have been considering alcohol ink and tattoo ink, but again not too sure.
Also for a 36W lamp how does the thickness of the shell vary with time if cured on a rotary stand and with a mirror on the open side? I'm using Egger LP/H Clear for shells.
Although I have red and blue for now but they're see-through. What other colourants could I consider for multiple colours, both see-through and opaque.
Thanks.


----------



## ThanosD (Sep 1, 2018)

So, here they are, after the operation. The back of the hole is connected via a small piece of acoustic tubing to the back of the DD



IMG_20180902_001633[1] by Thanos D, on Flickr



IMG_20180902_001711[1] by Thanos D, on Flickr

Unfortunately, I cannot say that the low-frequency extension has been improved. Lows are very similar to what they were with the previous iteration. However, I think that the responsiveness (if that's a term) has been improved a bit. Even though my ears are not trained enough to determine the differences, I can tell it has improved slightly from before.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

ThanosD said:


> So, here they are, after the operation. The back of the hole is connected via a small piece of acoustic tubing to the back of the DD
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I told you so..decay improves the most...

Vent on speaker improves bass because the vent output and speaker are in same room.

If you want to improve bass response, take the backwave of dynamic and put it in phase with forward and then throw that in your ear.... Which is very tough


----------



## Choy Wei De (Sep 2, 2018)

zeed said:


> Sorry but you misunderstood; I was saying that using a 18ohm resistor in series with an ED29689 driver means that the total impedance will be increased to around 30ohm instead of the original 7-10ohm.
> You should try a lower value resistor (such as 4,7-8,2ohm) or just try using a cap without the resistor. I can't calculate now but a cap of around 0,1-0,3uF should work fine.



So using a cap as low pass filter, I should calculate the cap size using 7ohm in the calculation? Since ED29689 is 10ohm 500hz, 7ohm 1Khz.


----------



## cyph3r

Xymordos said:


> Wow Sonion developed an electrostatic tweeter for IEMs! Just saw the production IEMs coming out of the Chinese manufacturers.
> 
> http://audio.sonion.com/electrostatic-tweeter/



Yep. Its been long in the making (the progress bar has been in the upper percentages since a while. Driver implementation though will require some skill given that the required transformer (ca 400V) will have to be accomodated (safely) in the shell along with the driver. Quite a lot of space will be needed. Not sure if the driver really is superior to what is already on the market (BAs and DDs dedicated to that frequency range).


----------



## Xymordos

I saw Oriolus and Alclair coming out with the new IEMs, Oriolus is 6 drivers. They said they used their self designed transformers rather than the one provided by Sonion.

Seems like the electrostatic drivers wont actually be too massive.


----------



## ThanosD

dhruvmeena96 said:


> I told you so..decay improves the most...
> 
> Vent on speaker improves bass because the vent output and speaker are in same room.
> 
> If you want to improve bass response, take the backwave of dynamic and put it in phase with forward and then throw that in your ear.... Which is very tough



Yes, you were right. The other thing you suggested, yeah... I don't see how I could do it, there is very little room in there, because of the technique I used to make the shell, which isn't the best. Thanks for the help though, next time I will probably go full BA. Does anybody know how the bass of a CI-22955 compares to the bass of a normal Dynamic Driver?


----------



## jbr1971

ThanosD said:


> Yes, you were right. The other thing you suggested, yeah... I don't see how I could do it, there is very little room in there, because of the technique I used to make the shell, which isn't the best. Thanks for the help though, next time I will probably go full BA. Does anybody know how the bass of a CI-22955 compares to the bass of a normal Dynamic Driver?



How did you connect the front side of your DD to your shell? Did you attach it to a tube to exit the nozzle like you would with a BA?

I did the following with a DD & have an incredible amount of bass with great extension, with no vent holes in the faceplate....


----------



## dhruvmeena96

ThanosD said:


> Yes, you were right. The other thing you suggested, yeah... I don't see how I could do it, there is very little room in there, because of the technique I used to make the shell, which isn't the best. Thanks for the help though, next time I will probably go full BA. Does anybody know how the bass of a CI-22955 compares to the bass of a normal Dynamic Driver?


Try HODVTEC instead of CI

Faster, linear and more powerful response plus it can take some mids(lower) making some leeway for you ED, thus reducing more distortion due to wider band playback.

Or you can tune ED with https://www.head-fi.org/threads/diy-universal-iem-from-er4s-to-f111-and-beyond.718262/#post-10556761

Horn loaded.

Horn load your ED and then use a low and mid pass filter to tune it according to you.

Horn loading increase both lows and highs(highs on good level). This may make your ED behave like a big SWFK (with proper low End). Dont use foam resistor, try making a pass filter where you filter out highs according to taste.

Horn loading can also remove peakiness if done right and can reduce the energy of sound compared from the very small tube focusing everything. 

You can use foam resistor but I never use it because it rolls of something important, which is 10kHz and makes BA band restricted driver.


----------



## ThanosD (Sep 2, 2018)

jbr1971 said:


> How did you connect the front side of your DD to your shell? Did you attach it to a tube to exit the nozzle like you would with a BA?
> 
> I did the following with a DD & have an incredible amount of bass with great extension, with no vent holes in the faceplate....


Yeah, I just attached the acoustic tubing at the front of the driver. Here is a picture:



IMG_20180823_173448[1] by Thanos D, on Flickr

As you can see, the driver already had a cover, so it was easy. But giving him the extra space like you did, could have given me the bass I was expecting. I'll probably try it another time. How did you manage to put the whole DD in the acoustic tubing? I guess you used tubing of Bigger diameter only for the driver. But how did connect it to the normal tubing, and achieved the conical shape? 





dhruvmeena96 said:


> Try HODVTEC instead of CI
> 
> Faster, linear and more powerful response plus it can take some mids(lower) making some leeway for you ED, thus reducing more distortion due to wider band playback.
> 
> ...



Whoa, this is a great idea. I was planning on building a small in-ear pair, with some small houses made of wood, and with a single BA, ED-29689, or RAB-32257, and it could be an opportunity to implement a horn, and learn some things on horns in general.  About the HODVTEC, the problem is that's double the price of the CI, but, if it's THAT better, I could find a workaround. But any new pairs of IEMs have to wait for next summer unfortunately, as in the following months all of my time will be reserved for studying. I might make the single BA pair in the next 2 weeks, as the year hasn't properly started yet and I have some time, and I will let you know. Between, the RAB and the ED, which one would you prefer (for full range use)? I think that the RAB is intended to be used as a single, full-range BA, or am I wrong?


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Sep 2, 2018)

ThanosD said:


> Yeah, I just attached the acoustic tubing at the front of the driver. Here is a picture:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Try to master the art of single driver... Once you get it right, then all other drivers are just extension to that. One full range BA you tuned can be band passed plus imagine a horn boosting treble without adding distortion to BA and then you filter out treble and bass from it to act as a mid driver, you are actually lowering the distortion by huge margin plus adding a headroom for more energy. That is why I dont use resistor and tune manually.

I prefer RAB as it is smaller, easier and more extended on both side, but ED does mid better.

But I prefer sonion 2300 for full range application as it lies between these two


----------



## ThanosD (Sep 2, 2018)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Try to master the art of single driver... Once you get it right, then all other drivers are just extension to that. One full range BA you tuned can be band passed plus imagine a horn boosting treble without adding distortion to BA and then you filter out treble and bass from it to act as a mid driver, you are actually lowering the distortion by huge margin plus adding a headroom for more energy. That is why I don't use resistor and tune manually.
> 
> I prefer RAB as it is smaller, easier and more extended on both side, but ED does mid better.
> 
> But I prefer sonion 2300 for full range application as it lies between these two


 Hmm, good point. Regarding the bandpass filter, space is a problem, as I will have to add 2 resistors and 2 caps, in addition to the other 2 drivers, which could be an issue, as my ear is probably not big enough. Or is there another way to implement a band pass? For the single BA, I was leaning to the RAB too, and I will probably go with it, as it is cheap too. As far as Sonion drivers go, I would love to hear one of them, but getting my hands on them is pretty much impossible. How did u manage to get one? I read that you can only order bulk, and that's something I cannot do.


----------



## jbr1971

ThanosD said:


> Yeah, I just attached the acoustic tubing at the front of the driver. Here is a picture:
> 
> As you can see, the driver already had a cover, so it was easy. But giving him the extra space like you did, could have given me the bass I was expecting. I'll probably try it another time. How did you manage to put the whole DD in the acoustic tubing? I guess you used tubing of Bigger diameter only for the driver. But how did connect it to the normal tubing, and achieved the conical shape?



The DD is not actually in tubing. I took a rigid silicone ear tip & cut it down so the DD just fit inside, then used Bondic to secure it. I also cut the inner stem out. Once the stem was gone, the tubing just fit that hole & I secured it as well. I have an idea for a "capsule" I'm going to try to 3D print for the next time I use a DD to fully cover it.


----------



## ThanosD

jbr1971 said:


> The DD is not actually in tubing. I took a rigid silicone ear tip & cut it down so the DD just fit inside, then used Bondic to secure it. I also cut the inner stem out. Once the stem was gone, the tubing just fit that hole & I secured it as well. I have an idea for a "capsule" I'm going to try to 3D print for the next time I use a DD to fully cover it.


Oh, that's clever. I might try it in another project. Would this alone improve the bass response of the driver?


----------



## jbr1971

ThanosD said:


> Oh, that's clever. I might try it in another project. Would this alone improve the bass response of the driver?



Hard to say. I haven't done any comparison measurements. However, given the extra air pocket in front of the driver within the tip, I believe there is a good possibility.


----------



## ThanosD

jbr1971 said:


> Hard to say. I haven't done any comparison measurements. However, given the extra air pocket in front of the driver within the tip, I believe there is a good possibility.



Yeah, that's what I thought too. Anyway, thanks for providing a better way to mount it. I won't probably do it in the current pair as there is no space, but if I try to make another pair of hybrids, I will definitely give it a try.


----------



## Caluub

Hey guys, I'm having trouble with curing. I'm using a 36w nail lamp with a mirror under my investment cup. I'm getting really nice gelatin molds with no air bubbles but I'm still experiencing a lot of issues with holes in the walls and very thin walls. In some cases, the walls will end up very thick in one area and very thin in another. My molds seem to be fine and I'm beginning to think my lamp may be the issue. Is there a particular lamp that I should consider using?


----------



## tarhana

Caluub said:


> Hey guys, I'm having trouble with curing. I'm using a 36w nail lamp with a mirror under my investment cup. I'm getting really nice gelatin molds with no air bubbles but I'm still experiencing a lot of issues with holes in the walls and very thin walls. In some cases, the walls will end up very thick in one area and very thin in another. My molds seem to be fine and I'm beginning to think my lamp may be the issue. Is there a particular lamp that I should consider using?



are your gelatins transparent enough? i had problems with gelatine, recently i started to use egger's dublicant, it's much better. cures in 30 secs.


----------



## Caluub

tarhana said:


> are your gelatins transparent enough? i had problems with gelatine, recently i started to use egger's dublicant, it's much better. cures in 30 secs.


My gelatine looks exactly like the photos in the tutorial Shilohsjustice posted a while back. Transparent and bubble free, but slightly brown in color. I did some more reading last night and I'm thinking that the holes could be from air between the negative and the resin. I purchased another nail lamp and a solar powered rotator. I'm planning to enclose the mold on the rotator between two lamps standing on end. Hopefully that will ensure that the resin cures evenly. As for the molds, I'm thinking about picking up some krystalloid from Lightning Enterprises but I'll definitely check out the Egger material you suggested. Here are some photos of my mold.


----------



## Einencool (Sep 3, 2018)

I think that your molds are way to thick.
You should make the diameter smaller so that the UV light could get closer to the Acrylic.

I‘d many Problems when I used the big cups, and it was much better when I went with the smaller cups, where I only have a few mm of Gelatine or Silcon or what ever between the light and the acrylic.

You could try to trim it with a knife. I think that should work.
The colour of the gelatine looks good, and the bubbles shouldn‘t be a problem.

:EDIT:
I also started with a rotary stand and so on, but finally I went back to a nail lamp upside down, where the light comes from the sides and the bottom. That worked really good, and I got nice shells within 40-60 sec. Probably for my shells I use some silicon but for my friends I*ve used some agaragar material. The silicon mould stays for maaaaany shells, and you can make them when you want, also 3 month later...


----------



## Caluub

Einencool said:


> I think that your molds are way to thick.
> You should make the diameter smaller so that the UV light could get closer to the Acrylic.
> 
> I‘d many Problems when I used the big cups, and it was much better when I went with the smaller cups, where I only have a few mm of Gelatine or Silcon or what ever between the light and the acrylic.



Thanks. I have smaller diameter cups on the way but shipping from China is taking forever.


----------



## Bassiklee

Just trim the investment material away before you pour the resin. You are pulling those out of the cups before you use them,  right?  If not,  that's likely your problem


----------



## Caluub

Bassiklee said:


> Just trim the investment material away before you pour the resin. You are pulling those out of the cups before you use them,  right?  If not,  that's likely your problem



I have been leaving it in the cup out of fear that the negative could be damaged or warped if I disturbed the gelatin. I did try once without the cup and got similar results.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Get a 3D printer....its is hard to mould...

It becomes way simpler with a 3D printer.

And if you guys really want to use mould with perfection...scan and print that mould with a good printer and then get it done with acrylic moulding after that


----------



## Bassiklee

Are you 3D printing shells?


----------



## MuZo2 (Sep 5, 2018)

3D printing is not for hobby users, it needs lot of investment in machine , software and the UV material for printing is also expensive as compared to manual method.

Also not lot of manufactures use it has limited options in color and the surface quality is not same like with molds.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

MuZo2 said:


> 3D printing is not for hobby users, it needs lot of investment in machine , software and the UV material for printing is also expensive as compared to manual method.
> 
> Also not lot of manufactures use it has limited options in color and the surface quality is not same like with molds.


We have education centre for research and dev(which is mostly free)
In India, I am talking

They provide 3D printer to get educational project printed.

Indians living in Delhi and Mumbai, there are some education promoting sec8 companies and NGO which help student do scientific project at near zero cost can take advantages...

Get the ear mould 3D printed 

Medical plastics filament still has to be paid by us...but it is still cheap

They even provide laser scanning for 3D models


----------



## Caluub

With smaller diameter casting cups I have been able to get better uniformity in the shell thickness. I am still running into some issues with holes in the shell wall. Inspecting my impressions and the failed shells, it seems to me that the reason I'm having this issue is from uneven thickness of the wax on the impression. Some areas of my impressions just refuse to coat evenly in the wax. I'm going to try a slightly higher temperature tonight. I'd like to see some images of impressions after trimming and waxing that can help me get an idea of what mine should look like when finished.


----------



## cyph3r

MuZo2 said:


> 3D printing is not for hobby users, it needs lot of investment in machine , software and the UV material for printing is also expensive as compared to manual method.
> 
> Also not lot of manufactures use it has limited options in color and the surface quality is not same like with molds.




You have a point there MuZo2, Indeed there is a steep learning curve and investment associated with 3D printing headphones. It took me roughly a year of serious hobby time and quite some money to advance my "home made IEM" project to a 3D printed, ergonomic universal shell, dual BA driver market-grade headphone. The exterior is customizable in both colour and in three dimensions. 

This will launch later in September in a initial limited number production campaign. Anyone interested to learn more, please PM me.


----------



## Jedrula1

Guys, got a issue to discuss. It is well known that the bigger inner diameter of the soundbore, the better HF extension. Low inner diameters works almost as a lo pass filter limiting in the audible way HF. 
On the other hand, if there is more soundbores in one earphone getting straight to the ear, the sound is more focused, detailed, clear, the soundstage is wider, instruments are more separated.  
My measurements shows that the difference between 1ID and 2ID above 5kHz with the same tube length could be up to 10dB (smaller ID, quieter HF). 
BUT, many pro audio companies use multi bore constructions (up to four or five soundbores in each headphone). The ID of each bore couldn't be bigger than 1mm. 
And the question - how do they got so many bores, that do not affect the high frequencies making sound muddy and not clear? How do they deal with it? I have made in my opinion great construction , four drivers with three soundbores (3x2ID), that hardly fits to my really big ear canal. It will be impossible to fit it into the smaller one. The solution could be usage of smaller ID bores, but it affects sound too much right now.
Sample picture below.


----------



## Bassiklee

MuZo2 said:


> 3D printing is not for hobby users, it needs lot of investment in machine , software and the UV material for printing is also expensive as compared to manual method.
> 
> Also not lot of manufactures use it has limited options in color and the surface quality is not same like with molds.





I know.  That's why I asked.


----------



## vladstef

Jedrula1 said:


> Guys, got a issue to discuss. It is well known that the bigger inner diameter of the soundbore, the better HF extension. Low inner diameters works almost as a lo pass filter limiting in the audible way HF.
> On the other hand, if there is more soundbores in one earphone getting straight to the ear, the sound is more focused, detailed, clear, the soundstage is wider, instruments are more separated.
> My measurements shows that the difference between 1ID and 2ID above 5kHz with the same tube length could be up to 10dB (smaller ID, quieter HF).
> BUT, many pro audio companies use multi bore constructions (up to four or five soundbores in each headphone). The ID of each bore couldn't be bigger than 1mm.
> ...



Just using logics, you could either put more treble extension drivers and keep small tubes or have one larger tube with smaller tubes for drivers focusing on lower frequencies. Everything is a compromise.
I don't agree with your argument about more tubes = better sound. There is a limit to everything and I'd argue that 2 or 3 bores are optimal.


----------



## Xymordos

I don't see how more bores = better separation. Also, doesn't the extension depend on the driver placement too? In my tests, using one big bore and placing the driver randomly doesn't always yield better HF extension though.


----------



## Caluub

I'm getting close to finishing my first build and I just can't get over the HF roll-off of the GV. This is my first build and I don't have any experience with tuning BAs, but I've had pretty consistent HF roll-off throughout testing with different combinations of dampers and tube length. Would it be possible to extend my HF by adding an SWFK to my build? Has anyone done this with a GV? Would it even be worth it?


----------



## NaiveSound

Pictures please


----------



## Caluub

NaiveSound said:


> Pictures please


This is my current configuration. 5mm to green damper on TWFK, 7mm to red damper on HODVTEC. The tubing to bore represents the actual length when assembled. I have it out right now because I was playing around with different configurations.


----------



## zeed (Sep 11, 2018)

Try using 2mm ID tube for the twfk and using different length/damper combinations.
You should be extent further in the >2khz region. Expect a boost of about 3-6db depending on your config.


----------



## NaiveSound

I want shell pictures


----------



## Caluub

NaiveSound said:


> I want shell pictures



Not looking too special yet. They came out bubble free and pretty clear but I still need to buff and polish. I've only drilled and cut the right ear. The other is still at home untouched.


----------



## NaiveSound

I absolutely love it.  What material


----------



## Caluub

NaiveSound said:


> I absolutely love it.  What material


Fotoplast S/IO. I had 5 or 6 failed shells before this. Some a lot prettier. I ended up settling on clear for my first build because I was having issues with wall thickness when I used dyes.


----------



## sanekn (Sep 11, 2018)

Wow man those shells are looking marvelous! Great work! I never managed to have my shells be this clean and uniform 

Im having uneven thickness every time and hair lines everywhere. Inside looking messy. Well im still doing something wrong obviously


----------



## NaiveSound

Gest work indeed. I want more pictures tho.. 
. Not enoght. Why you make me beg?


----------



## Caluub

zeed said:


> Try using 2mm ID tube for the twfk and using different length/damper combinations.
> You should be extent further in the >2khz region. Expect a boost of about 3-6db depending on your config.


I gave it a trial run with the bigger tube on the TWFK and shoved it into a comply tip and I can tell it's better. When I'm home from work I'll enlarge the bore and see how it sounds. Thank you!


----------



## Caluub

It's about to get real. I special ordered this from Oaktree and was told there would be a 2 week lead time but it came in just a few days. $162 shipped.


----------



## Vetseun

Caluub said:


> Not looking too special yet. They came out bubble free and pretty clear but I still need to buff and polish. I've only drilled and cut the right ear. The other is still at home untouched.



Those shells look great! Do you mind giving a bit of an overview of your process in creating shells?  I'm trying to fine tune my approach to get them as perfect as I can straight out of the molds...


----------



## Caluub (Sep 14, 2018)

Vetseun said:


> Those shells look great! Do you mind giving a bit of an overview of your process in creating shells?  I'm trying to fine tune my approach to get them as perfect as I can straight out of the molds...



I'm still just starting but I've made several attempts at shells with Fotoplast both with and without dyes. I've found that the greatest improvement in shell quality came from a few things. The first is patience. Spending the proper time and care from the very beginning of the process has made it a hell of a lot easier later on. I made several pairs of impressions before I learned that it really helps to get them as smooth as possible. You can take quite a lot off the impression and still get a tight seal and good fit in the finished shells. So, make your impressions as smooth as possible. When you get to waxing the impression, there will be less bubbles forming in the wax because there are less pits and imperfections in the impressions. When you wax the impressions, do your best to get a smooth dip. If it fails, let it cool for a second and then remove all the excess with a paper towel and try again. I find that Shilohsjustice's method posted in this thread works best for me. I use red dental wax. Be patient until you have a good waxed impression to work with. Otherwise, you'll just waste material pouring crappy shells.

The second thing that helped a lot was switching from gelatine to krystalloid. My gelatine molds were coming out perfect but I still wasn't getting good results. I use the krystalloid duplicating material from Lightning Enterprises. The surface of my finished shells come out so much better in the krystalloid investments. When preparing your investment material, take time to make sure you're not allowing clumps to remain or air bubbles. With gelatine, I use the same method Shilohsjustice posted and get great molds. The only thing I do different is that when I'm first mixing the gelatine, I pour it through a wire mesh strainer into a measuring cup to remove air bubbles and any clumps. With krystalloid, I melt it in a microwave for just a few seconds and then I let it set until it comes down to about 115F and then I pour it into the investment. It's a lot easier to avoid air bubbles with krystalloid. Again, I get better results overall with the krystalloid. The gelatine is usable if necessary, but I'd rather spend a little extra on krystalloid material to avoid wasting Fotoplast.

The third thing I do to prepare for curing is the hardest. I pre-pour the resin I'm going to use into a small graduated cup. About 10mL per investment. This is when I add dye if I'm using any. After the resin has been prepared, I let it sit for about an hour while the investment solidifies in the fridge. Doing this allows any air bubbles in the resin the time they need to come out. After the hour is over, I check the cups for any air bubbles in the resin. If there are any left, I use a dental pick to pull them to the surface and pop them against the side of the cup.

Finally, I remove the investments from the fridge, trim the excess from the edges of the impression, and remove the impression. Then I pour the resin into the investment slowly to not produce air pockets. Then I cure.

For curing I do this:

Cover investment with black cover.
Cure for 1:30 for clear shells, 1:40-1:50 for dyed shells depending on color.
Remove and dump excess until slowed down to a drip.
Cure with the open side down for another 1:30.
Remove shell and place into a glycerin bath. Allow the shell to completely fill with glycerin. Cure for 7:00-8:00. For clear, I've found that 7:00 is better for me.
Remove from glycerin and place into 99% isopropyl alcohol. Clean inside and out with a toothbrush.

I use two nail lamps taped together with the opening facing downward. I also put my investment on top of a mirror.

Hope this helps.


----------



## JoyjeetPanday

Caluub said:


> I'm still just starting but I've made several attempts at shells with Fotoplast both with and without dyes. I've found that the greatest improvement in shell quality came from a few things. The first is patience. Spending the proper time and care from the very beginning of the process has made it a hell of a lot easier later on. I made several pairs of impressions before I learned that it really helps to get them as smooth as possible. You can take quite a lot off the impression and still get a tight seal and good fit in the finished shells. So, make your impressions as smooth as possible. When you get to waxing the impression, there will be less bubbles forming in the wax because there are less pits and imperfections in the impressions. When you wax the impressions, do your best to get a smooth dip. If it fails, let it cool for a second and then remove all the excess with a paper towel and try again. I find that Shilohsjustice's method posted in this thread works best for me. I use red dental wax. Be patient until you have a good waxed impression to work with. Otherwise, you'll just waste material pouring ****ty shells.
> 
> The second thing that helped a lot was switching from gelatine to krystalloid. My gelatine molds were coming out perfect but I still wasn't getting good results. I use the krystalloid duplicating material from Lightning Enterprises. The surface of my finished shells come out so much better in the krystalloid investments. When preparing your investment material, take time to make sure you're not allowing clumps to remain or air bubbles. With gelatine, I use the same method Shilohsjustice posted and get great molds. The only thing I do different is that when I'm first mixing the gelatine, I pour it through a wire mesh strainer into a measuring cup to remove air bubbles and any clumps. With krystalloid, I melt it in a microwave for just a few seconds and then I let it set until it comes down to about 115F and then I pour it into the investment. It's a lot easier to avoid air bubbles with krystalloid. Again, I get better results overall with the krystalloid. The gelatine is usable if necessary, but I'd rather spend a little extra on krystalloid material to avoid wasting Fotoplast.
> 
> ...




How would the time differ with one 36W lamp? Say I cover the open front with a mirror.
Just got some transparent and blue Egger LP/H.
Also I'm Egger's duplicating gel, does the investment require any trimming from the sides?


----------



## Caluub

JoyjeetPanday said:


> How would the time differ with one 36W lamp? Say I cover the open front with a mirror.
> Just got some transparent and blue Egger LP/H.
> Also I'm Egger's duplicating gel, does the investment require any trimming from the sides?


I'm not sure that the curing time would differ at all. I've never used the Egger resin or duplicating material. Somebody else might be able to answer this for you. I try to keep the walls of my investment as thin as possible but not so thin that it gets damaged when I remove the impression.


----------



## Vetseun

JoyjeetPanday said:


> How would the time differ with one 36W lamp? Say I cover the open front with a mirror.
> Just got some transparent and blue Egger LP/H.
> Also I'm Egger's duplicating gel, does the investment require any trimming from the sides?



Can't comment on Egger, but with Fotoplast and a single 36w lamp I get good results between 1:30 and 2:00 simply using tin foil to cover the opening and mold straight on the shiny floor of the lamp (i.e. not no a separate mirror).   At 1:30 it's 50:50 between a perfect 1,5mm shell wall all the way round vs one of the walls being a little too thin.  At 2:00 the walls look are always good, but sometimes the very tip is a bit too thick.   Unfortunately, the only way to get it perfect is through trial and error.


----------



## ForceMajeure (Sep 18, 2018)

Depends on your lamp. Egger LP/H cures faster than Dreve's. also it's thicker in consistency, on average I would say 47-57sec is the curing time for Egger clear with a regular 36w lamp.
Dreve is 1:30-1:50min.

those times are with investments not trimmed (45mm ID x 35mm height)

Another major factor is how old is your batch. the older it is the longer it will take to cure. Beside the lamp affecting curing there are also different batches from the 2 companies that can cure slightly differently.


----------



## Lucas Taboada (Sep 19, 2018)

I'm still learning and improving the shells method. I had do a good amount of sanding in the inside and outside of my shells because there are some imperfections, anyone knows a way to bring back the shinny look in the inside of the shell? For the outside I was just buffing and polishing but I wasn't getting a good result in my other tests, so I'm planning on getting the Lak3 lacquer but I can't think a good way to use on the inside of the shell, has anyone tried this yet?

Lak3 need glycerin to fully cure like the fotoplast?

Here are some pictures, small imperfections:


 

After sanding:


----------



## ForceMajeure (Sep 20, 2018)

Lak 3 doesn't need a glycerin bath at all, after completely curing it doesn't leave a tacky surface. You just apply it with the brush and cure with UV. make sure you are not skimping on it while applying. I recommend to dip the brush every 1-2 strokes on avg. Use turning motor (15-17rpm is the right speed)  so it can rotate at least 2-3 minutes and the lacquer can even out before you place it for a cure. Having such a device is indispensable IMO.

Lacquering to perfection is one of the most difficult skill to master IMO. it's not easy and there is always a chance you have a small bubble or uneven looking surface that will show to the expert eye.

You are not supposed to sand/touch the inside of your shells. if you do it right they should be smooth and without imperfections inside. in case there is a tiny spot that annoys you inside you could sand it and apply a bit of resin and lacquer and cure. but usually it's not required..


----------



## Lucas Taboada

ForceMajeure said:


> Lak 3 doesn't need a glycerin bath at all, after completely curing it doesn't leave a tacky surface. You just apply it with the brush and cure with UV. make sure you are not skimping on it while applying. I recommend to dip the brush every 1-2 strokes on avg. Use turning motor (15-17rpm is the right speed)  so it can rotate at least 2-3 minutes and the lacquer can even out before you place it for a cure. Having such a device is indispensable IMO.
> 
> Lacquering to perfection is one of the most difficult skill to master IMO. it's not easy and there is always a chance you have a small bubble or uneven looking surface that will show to the expert eye.
> 
> You are not supposed to sand/touch the inside of your shells. if you do it right they should be smooth and without imperfections inside. in case there is a tiny spot that annoys you inside you could sand it and apply a bit of resin and lacquer and cure. but usually it's not required..



Thanks for replying! I had to sand the inside because these shells came out too thin in some parts and I had to cure again, because of that I got some imperfections.

I'm planning on building a rotator, saw a Shiloh's tutorial were he used a 5/6rpm, is it too slow?

Another question, do you normally secure your BAs inside the shell applying a drop of resin with an syringe? it doesn't leave a tacky surface?


----------



## ForceMajeure

Lucas Taboada said:


> Thanks for replying! I had to sand the inside because these shells came out too thin in some parts and I had to cure again, because of that I got some imperfections.
> 
> I'm planning on building a rotator, saw a Shiloh's tutorial were he used a 5/6rpm, is it too slow?
> 
> Another question, do you normally secure your BAs inside the shell applying a drop of resin with an syringe? it doesn't leave a tacky surface?



The turning speed for the rotator that is sold from Egger is ~15rpm. 5-6rpm is too slow IMO

Securing the drivers and filling the canal is done with resin yes, with a syringe. as long as you don't touch it with your fingers the fact that it is tacky shouldn't matter for you.


----------



## Spinnerauto

I use 400-500 nm. lamp to make the make the opaque white shell but it isn't cure anything.
So what is the problem ? Thank you for your help.


----------



## ForceMajeure (Sep 23, 2018)

Either too much white, not enough curing time. You need to use just enough so it's white but lets the light through.
You might need a more powerful lamp as well. Maybe the pigment you used. There are many factors to why it didn't cure.


----------



## Spinnerauto (Sep 23, 2018)

I use 36w lamps and i cure it for 8 mins. I use egger resin transparent mix with pigment.Could you describe about how did you do that? Please tell me about your machine that you use. Thank you very much for your help guy


----------



## Caluub

I've gotten to the point where my shells are coming out very nice before buffing. I'm trying to refine my process a bit to work out the slight imperfections that I'm still getting in my finished shells. I've figured out that the imperfections I'm seeing are from inconsistency in the waxed layer of the impressions.

What kind of wax is everyone using, and what temperature have you found is best for waxing your impressions? Out of the entire process, I experience the most frustration and failure in the waxing process. I can never get consistent results at any particular temperature, and I constantly get one or two air bubbles on the last part of the impression to enter the wax. Usually I have one air bubble on the tip of the canal and one on the top of the cymba. Has anyone found a good method for avoiding these bubbles?


----------



## Jedrula1

Caluub said:


> What kind of wax is everyone using, and what temperature have you found is best for waxing your impressions?


Dental wax, hard one. The best temperature for mine is 78-82 Celsius degrees. 

Also, did a great prototype. The patent copied from Tomekk - Thank You. Four driver setup (3300 vented for lows, 2389 for mids and E25ST as a tweeter) with fully configurable crossover (it was a little pain in the ass to fix little breadboards in the faceplates). Triple bore design, 2ID steel pipes each . Sound is amazing - fairly flat with gently reinforced lows, detailed, wide and warm, but not with lack of details.


----------



## Spinnerauto

Jedrula1 said:


> Dental wax, hard one. The best temperature for mine is 78-82 Celsius degrees.
> 
> Also, did a great prototype. The patent copied from Tomekk - Thank You. Four driver setup (3300 vented for lows, 2389 for mids and E25ST as a tweeter) with fully configurable crossover (it was a little pain in the ass to fix little breadboards in the faceplates). Triple bore design, 2ID steel pipes each . Sound is amazing - fairly flat with gently reinforced lows, detailed, wide and warm, but not with lack of details.




How did you do  the opaquewhite shell could you tell about it


----------



## Jedrula1

Spinnerauto said:


> How did you do the opaquewhite shell could you tell about it


I used white opaque dye form Ressin Obsesion. Curing time was quite longer, and you have to mix proper amount of dye - too much will not cure.


----------



## Vetseun

I basically finish up my first set tonight, but had a strange hiccup right at the end... my lack 3 remains tacky and I have no idea why... I'm applying a thin layer with a brush, rotating it for a couple of minutes prior to cure and then curing for 1:30... yet they come out tacky.  Any advice on what I may be doing wrong?  So frustrating to get tripped up on a thing right at the very end...


----------



## Jedrula1

Vetseun said:


> I basically finish up my first set tonight, but had a strange hiccup right at the end... my lack 3 remains tacky and I have no idea why... I'm applying a thin layer with a brush, rotating it for a couple of minutes prior to cure and then curing for 1:30... yet they come out tacky.  Any advice on what I may be doing wrong?  So frustrating to get tripped up on a thing right at the very end...



What is your curing unit?


----------



## Vetseun

36watt nail lamp

Cures my fotoplast shells in under 2 mins...


----------



## Jedrula1

Vetseun said:


> 36watt nail lamp
> 
> Cures my fotoplast shells in under 2 mins...


Did you used rotary motor during curing? If not, use it. I would try to cure it longer anyway, and think about possibilities, if light can not reach any area of headphone covered with lack 3 - simple mirror can help.Have similar issues in the past with not strong enough lamp.


----------



## Vetseun

Jedrula1 said:


> Did you used rotary motor during curing? If not, use it. I would try to cure it longer anyway, and think about possibilities, if light can not reach any area of headphone covered with lack 3 - simple mirror can help.Have similar issues in the past with not strong enough lamp.


Thanks! I'll try go for longer... I was scared of the lack 3 yellowing (the shells are clear)...

I don't have a electric rotatory, but I stick a little handle on the face plate and rotate manually...


----------



## Jedrula1

Vetseun said:


> I don't have a electric rotatory, but I stick a little handle on the face plate and rotate manually...


Yeah, try longer. Pretty sure that the time is an issue here. Rotatory motor is really must have, makes ciems looks muuuuch better.


----------



## Vetseun

First pair done! By no means perfect, but happy with how these turned out as my first set.  I'm also quite please with the sound (GV with green and red filter).  I can't believe I actually did it after stumbling onto this tread for the first time more than 2 years ago!!


----------



## Genio Croto

Jedrula1 said:


> Dental wax, hard one. The best temperature for mine is 78-82 Celsius degrees.
> 
> Also, did a great prototype. The patent copied from Tomekk - Thank You. Four driver setup (3300 vented for lows, 2389 for mids and E25ST as a tweeter) with fully configurable crossover (it was a little pain in the ass to fix little breadboards in the faceplates). Triple bore design, h . Sound is amazing - fairly flat with gently reinforced lows, detailed, wide and warm, but not with lack of details.


they really look very Pro, tell us where you got the steel tube and something about the xover


----------



## Jedrula1

Genio Croto said:


> they really look very Pro, tell us where you got the steel tube and something about the xover


Steel pipes are just medical needles. Of course shortened and sanded properly, but still needles, about 2mm of inner diameter  
Crossover: Resistor in series for 3300 wired in series (small one, about 1ohm - just to make bass a little more precise in my opinion), 2389 has both - resistor (around 4 ohms) and capacitor as hi pass filter connected in series (not sure now if 2389 is connected by centertap or not), and E25ST just hi pass with capacitor. Don't remember the values right now, but - you got the overview how crossover looks like. I am wondering to use second order hi pass due to phase matching - have to do some measurements.  Overall very proper sounding pair of headphones.


----------



## Genio Croto

Jedrula1 said:


> Steel pipes are just medical needles. Of course shortened and sanded properly, but still needles, about 2mm of inner diameter
> Crossover: Resistor in series for 3300 wired in series (small one, about 1ohm - just to make bass a little more precise in my opinion), 2389 has both - resistor (around 4 ohms) and capacitor as hi pass filter connected in series (not sure now if 2389 is connected by centertap or not), and E25ST just hi pass with capacitor. Don't remember the values right now, but - you got the overview how crossover looks like. I am wondering to use second order hi pass due to phase matching - have to do some measurements.  Overall very proper sounding pair of headphones.



Thanks! Needles! Very good idea!   yeah! Phase matching are the next level


----------



## CoiL

Vetseun said:


> First pair done! By no means perfect, but happy with how these turned out as my first set.  I'm also quite please with the sound (GV with green and red filter).  I can't believe I actually did it after stumbling onto this tread for the first time more than 2 years ago!!



M`kay... this makes me just... jealous! -.-
I`ve gotta stop buying any more IEMs and get into this DIY customs! ;P 
My current plan was to use KZ ZS4 shells (ZS3 for testing) and make a first try. 
Now, You guys are talking lot about 3300(lows)+2389(mids)+E25ST(tweeter) and configurable crossovers - has someone got links to share where to start with crossover tuning and where to get parts? 
This thread is sooo huge and I`ve lost all my previous bookmarks of important knowledge-filled posts ;(


----------



## Jedrula1

CoiL said:


> You guys are talking lot about 3300(lows)+2389(mids)+E25ST(tweeter)


A lot ? This is only my one construction, let's say prototype, experiment . I have read whole topic thoroughly and  I did't notice any construction using this tweeter, and config.

If you have no experience in tuning and xo design, start with gaining some knowledge about passive circuits (RC filters). After that do some easier two or three way designs using Knowles BAs - they are also good, but way more available. On this thread there are many examples of designs with CI+TWFK, CI+ED, HODVTEC+TWFK and so on. Treat them as a startpoint, then experiment with circuits, connections, tubing, filtering, vents, understand impedance... 
Starting with big amount of drivers at the beginning is the worst way to learn what is exactly happening while BA tuning. 
Anyway - this is a long process  Fingers crossed! Good luck in creating first pair. Show off the result at the end. Cheers!


----------



## Xymordos

Vetseun said:


> First pair done! By no means perfect, but happy with how these turned out as my first set.  I'm also quite please with the sound (GV with green and red filter).  I can't believe I actually did it after stumbling onto this tread for the first time more than 2 years ago!!



Wow that looks nice! How did you get the wood to merge so well with the shell without covering it with resin?


----------



## Smgwee1 (Sep 29, 2018)

I was playing around with the idea of metal shell IEM, so got a audiologist to scan my impression and did the editing with 3D softwares and autocad. send it to shapeway to print it in steel, the result was fantastic and fit is really good. However the shell was too low as such using a conventional 2 pin or MMCX would be challenging. For the past 1 week I was busying searching for fitear faceplate, unfortunately it is not easily available. so I constructed a faceplate with surface 2 pin. will send it out for printing soon. wish me luck


----------



## zeed

Hey guys!
Regarding acoustic tubing, are you using general pvc/silicone ones or medical grade ones, free of talk, sulfur and such things?


----------



## Vetseun (Oct 2, 2018)

Xymordos said:


> Wow that looks nice! How did you get the wood to merge so well with the shell without covering it with resin?



I used a dremel with a little sanding drum wheel thingy to first flush trim the face plate to the shell.  I then took a 45deg cut all round the edge until I got the face plate edge down to the shell, following which I simply smoothed the transition.

When I applied the lacquer I covered the faceplate with bluetak/prestik to stop the lacquer from getting on the face plate and for attaching the little flat grinding wheel as a handle so that I could manually slowly rotate the shell for a couple of minutes before curing.


----------



## BishopBautista

Vetseun said:


> First pair done! By no means perfect, but happy with how these turned out as my first set.  I'm also quite please with the sound (GV with green and red filter).  I can't believe I actually did it after stumbling onto this tread for the first time more than 2 years ago!!


They look fantastic great job, may I ask, where did you find that wood for the faceplates?

Thank you


----------



## Vetseun

It's a stabilized composite ply wood called Dymondwood - used in turning pens, handle making for knives, pistol grips etc.  I had some kicking around from an older project.  I don't know whether dymondwood is available anymore but just have a look at handle material blanks on knife supply websites... you'll find something similar I'm sure.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

ForceMajeure said:


> The turning speed for the rotator that is sold from Egger is ~15rpm. 5-6rpm is too slow IMO
> 
> Securing the drivers and filling the canal is done with resin yes, with a syringe. as long as you don't touch it with your fingers the fact that it is tacky shouldn't matter for you.




I’ve been using the home made ones at that speed and a bit fast for over a year with exceptional results. Honestly speaking any speed will essentially work as its allowing the Lacquer to settle. 

I’ve been doing 1-2 pairs a week consistently and the idea behind my rotors is that its a DIY tool made at home that has helped me make professional grade IEM’s. The concept fits well with the DIY community!

I say invest in a motor and make one yourself. Save the money and invest it into material and or UV cute lite. IMO!


----------



## Lucas Taboada

Shilohsjustice said:


> I’ve been using the home made ones at that speed and a bit fast for over a year with exceptional results. Honestly speaking any speed will essentially work as its allowing the Lacquer to settle.
> 
> I’ve been doing 1-2 pairs a week consistently and the idea behind my rotors is that its a DIY tool made at home that has helped me make professional grade IEM’s. The concept fits well with the DIY community!
> 
> I say invest in a motor and make one yourself. Save the money and invest it into material and or UV cute lite. IMO!



I've found a 15rpm synchronous motor and plan to follow your tutorial, just waiting for the deliver.

Man, you have some serious skills, that IEM looks beautiful!! I hope you're still working on the tutorial, even if it's slowly, I feel that we always have something more to learn from you.

Changing the subject a bit, I'm still having trouble curing some parts like the concha and crux of helix (according to google ) and getting inconsistent shells (too thick in some parts). I'm using agar-agar and already tried gelatin. I've read here that you use the hydrocolloid of lightning enterprises, is it REALLY better? Shipping is too damn expensive to my country :/

And another question, do you guys do the glycerin bath with the faceplates too? if not how do you manage the tacky layer?


----------



## jbr1971

Smgwee1 said:


> I was playing around with the idea of metal shell IEM, so got a audiologist to scan my impression and did the editing with 3D softwares and autocad. send it to shapeway to print it in steel, the result was fantastic and fit is really good. However the shell was too low as such using a conventional 2 pin or MMCX would be challenging. For the past 1 week I was busying searching for fitear faceplate, unfortunately it is not easily available. so I constructed a faceplate with surface 2 pin. will send it out for printing soon. wish me luck



I've been working on the idea of 3D printing as well, I'm waiting to hear back from a guy to use his scanner. I've been having a hard time finding services that will print shells in Detax (or similar medical grade materials) if you're not a high volume customer (audiologist). I'm curious to read about how using the metal sounds, & what challenges there might be in the build.

I've never seen the connectors put out on the faceplate like that, great idea.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Lucas Taboada said:


> I've found a 15rpm synchronous motor and plan to follow your tutorial, just waiting for the deliver.
> 
> Man, you have some serious skills, that IEM looks beautiful!! I hope you're still working on the tutorial, even if it's slowly, I feel that we always have something more to learn from you.
> 
> ...




Krystalloid is definitely the way to go if you can’t get it, I would use gelatin. I have a couple methods I use for Faceplates and I do not use glycerin to second cure the Faceplates. 

The method I do most is really simple. I use a piece of glass from a 4x6 picture frame. I pour the material on the clean piece of glass and kind of twist it until it spreads out. Remember, Fotoplast cures hard without the tacky layer where there is no oxygen present, so where the Fotoplast is touching the glass it fully cures with no issues. I use an ultraviolet flashlight to cure it, and then I will use a sharp edge to peel from the glass. 

  


If I need the Faceplate to be thinner or really flat I pour the Fotoplast on the glass then I place another piece of glass on it the flatten it really good like this and cure with UV flashlight. The UV flashlight I use is a alldaymall wF-501B I bought the model that had a rechargeable battery. I’ve had it for years. I use this same flashlight when I fill the canals with Fotoplast using a syringe to lock in the acoustic tubing. I have since purchased a wand but find the flashlight better, maybe because of habit I have learned how to cure effectively with it. 

 


 


FYI, I switched Fotoplasts several months ago and the new formula cures sooooo much better, and has almost no tacky layer. Perfect smooth shells with glycerin bath 100% of the time. 

This is the Fotoplast I switched too. 

 


P.S. yes I am still working on the retro build tutorial, I got a new job 9months ago and it has really taken so much time away from me and with the word getting out and me building ears order after order I find my time being spread super thin!! It’s coming together. I am through the gelatin investments. 

I hope you find value in this info!


----------



## Shilohsjustice

jbr1971 said:


> I've been working on the idea of 3D printing as well, I'm waiting to hear back from a guy to use his scanner. I've been having a hard time finding services that will print shells in Detax (or similar medical grade materials) if you're not a high volume customer (audiologist). I'm curious to read about how using the metal sounds, & what challenges there might be in the build.
> 
> I've never seen the connectors put out on the faceplate like that, great idea.




Look up on google, build 3d scanner using old Xbox Kinect from an Xbox 360. There are tutorials all over that render HD renderings from the sensor. I was getting heavily into the 3d for months researching and almost pulled the trigger but didn’t because the material costs at the time was crazy. I purchase from what was Warner techcare and they now sell the 3d medical grade material for hearing aide applications.


----------



## Jedrula1

Shilohsjustice said:


> FYI, I switched Fotoplasts several months ago and the new formula cures sooooo much better, and has almost no tacky layer. Perfect smooth shells with glycerin bath 100% of the time.
> 
> This is the Fotoplast I switched too.


Where did you buy this footplast? On official Dreve website there is still older S/IO, not SI/O lv.


----------



## ForceMajeure

I was planning on building myself another rotating rig but this time one that is rechargeable. Sometimes the one I already built has the power cord pulling it a bit and it annoys me.
If anyone has a recommendation on a DC motor alternative with low voltage you are welcome to post.

btw the list of ingredients on your fotoplast looks different than the "older" non - lv ones.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Jedrula1 said:


> Where did you buy this footplast? On official Dreve website there is still older S/IO, not SI/O lv.



I buy my material from Warner techcare. It’s $186 for 500g bottle.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

ForceMajeure said:


> I was planning on building myself another rotating rig but this time one that is rechargeable. Sometimes the one I already built has the power cord pulling it a bit and it annoys me.
> If anyone has a recommendation on a DC motor alternative with low voltage you are welcome to post.
> 
> btw the list of ingredients on your fotoplast looks different than the "older" non - lv ones.




The formula is different, it cures more consistent, it’s clearer as well. Less tacky layer and with glycerin bath it cures like glass on the inside of the shell.


----------



## Bassiklee

I'll have to check out that new Fotoplast. Since the topic of scanning and printing came up,  has anyone tried that cyclop scanner yet? 

The Xbox Kinect option looks great for DIY types. I lean more towards plug and play.  Just curious.  It's getting closer to the point where we can get into this at home for well under a grand


----------



## Jedrula1

Guys - got a question about measurement. How to read properly FFT Waterfall Responce? Lets say... fast and precise bass is define by what? How to influence it? Sample Waterfall below ( 3800lo in phase +1700mid with 4,4uF) I will be grateful.


----------



## Caluub

If nobody else noticed, Soundlink has a sale on their Aliexpress store that ends in 4 days. GVs are currently $89.38 for a pair. All their other BAs are on sale as well. Might be a good time to stock up.


----------



## Caluub

Shilohsjustice said:


> I buy my material from Warner techcare. It’s $186 for 500g bottle.


How did you get an account to order from them? I tried to register once and got declined because my address was clearly residential. I offered my business address but they wouldn't accept me because I'm not an audiology professional.


----------



## chips2481

Caluub said:


> If nobody else noticed, Soundlink has a sale on their Aliexpress store that ends in 4 days. GVs are currently $89.38 for a pair. All their other BAs are on sale as well. Might be a good time to stock up.


Are their knowles drivers real?  Almost half price compared to mouser.


----------



## jbr1971

Shilohsjustice said:


> Look up on google, build 3d scanner using old Xbox Kinect from an Xbox 360. There are tutorials all over that render HD renderings from the sensor. I was getting heavily into the 3d for months researching and almost pulled the trigger but didn’t because the material costs at the time was crazy. I purchase from what was Warner techcare and they now sell the 3d medical grade material for hearing aide applications.



I looked through a lot of different DIY scanner options, but in the end I couldn't justify the cost of purchasing/building a scanner because I don't expect to scan much after these impressions. I found a guy that said I could use his scanner for free, it's just taking forever to line up our schedules. The hard part is finding someone to print.

The printers that are typically used for shells are over $5k & I definitely don't expect to print enough for myself to justify that. If there was enough demand in the community to help offset the cost I would consider it, but it doesn't look like we as a group have gotten there yet.


----------



## Andrumgt

I can do the prints, if you are in Europe.


----------



## chips2481

jbr1971 said:


> The printers that are typically used for shells are over $5k & I definitely don't expect to print enough for myself to justify that. If there was enough demand in the community to help offset the cost I would consider it, but it doesn't look like we as a group have gotten there yet.



I have an sla printer, if you send me the stl file I can print it.  Not sure how accurate it will be for the part that will seal inside your ear but might be ok.


----------



## RAFAEL DOUGLAS MARTINS

Olá pessoal, sou novo aqui no fórum e gostaria de saber como você faz a impressão na capa

como esta aqui impressa feia pelo
Shilohsjustice

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/home-made-iems.430688/page-498


[QUOTE = "Jedrula1, post: 14520221, member: 490615"] Pessoal - tenho uma pergunta sobre medição. Como ler corretamente o FFT Waterfall Responce? Vamos dizer ... baixo rápido e preciso é definido por quê? Como influenciá-lo? Amostra Cachoeira abaixo (3800lo em fase + 1700mid com 4,4uF) eu serei grato.





[/CITAR]


----------



## RAFAEL DOUGLAS MARTINS

[QUOTE = "Shilohsjustice, post: 14518661, member: 411986"] Eu tenho usado os caseiros nessa velocidade e um pouco mais rápido por mais de um ano com resultados excepcionais. Honestamente falando, qualquer coisa vai funcionar em pleno funcionamento, permitindo que uma laca se assente.

O faça como um par 1-2 roteiro de semana e faça uma idéia por trás dos roteiros que é uma ferramenta DIY feito em casa que me ajudou a fazer IEMs de nível profissional. O conceito se encaixa bem com a comunidade DIY!

Eu digo investir em um motor e fazer um você mesmo. Guarde o dinheiro e invista em materiais e / ou UV fofo. OMI!

[ATTACH = full] 2560183 [/ ATTACH] [/ QUOTE]

[QUOTE = "Shilohsjustice, post: 14518661, member: 411986"] Eu tenho usado os caseiros nessa velocidade e um pouco mais rápido por mais de um ano com resultados excepcionais. Honestamente falando, qualquer velocidade irá essencialmente funcionar, permitindo que a laca se assente.

Eu tenho feito 1-2 pares por semana de forma consistente e a idéia por trás dos meus rotores é que é uma ferramenta DIY feita em casa que me ajudou a fazer IEMs de nível profissional. O conceito se encaixa bem com a comunidade DIY!

Eu digo investir em um motor e fazer um você mesmo. Guarde o dinheiro e invista em material e / ou UV fofo. OMI!

[ATTACH = full] 2560183 [/ ATTACH] [/ QUOTE]



Olá poderia mostrar como, eu posso fazer impressão, como você fez nesta foto, como fazer para logotipo, imagem, poderia compartilhar como e feito me ajudaria muito


----------



## RAFAEL DOUGLAS MARTINS (Oct 11, 2018)

Sorry, I'm having trouble communicating with you. I'm new here.


----------



## Smgwee1

cheating with 3D Printer


----------



## Ivan TT (Oct 12, 2018)

I really like the sound of RAB-32257 (especially with removed bass port tuning fabric), so had an idea of checking out how doubling these drivers would sound like.

Actually, they sound not too bad at all, with grey (update after further evaluation: green) dampeners and silver plated cable, hooked up serially. This set up also allows for 3 different bass tunings: bass port fabric in place on both, one or none of the drivers.

Very pleased with the outcome, compared to single better soundstage and dynamics and these shells are much more comfortable compared to f7200 style deep insertion shells I used on singles.


----------



## ThanosD (Oct 12, 2018)

Smgwee1 said:


> cheating with 3D Printer



What kind of 3d printer did you use? I guess it's the uv epoxy type of print, right? It looks very high quality. You could do some polishing, and apply the laquere you would normally use on a standard custom as a finish, and I think they will look even better. How did you 3d scan the impression?



Ivan TT said:


> I really like the sound of RAB-32257 (especially with removed bass port tuning fabric), so had an idea of checking out how doubling these drivers would sound like.
> 
> Actually, they sound not too bad at all, with grey dampeners and silver plated cable, hooked up serially. This set up also allows for 3 different bass tunings: bass port fabric in place on both, one or none of the drivers.
> 
> Very pleased with the outcome, compared to single better soundstage and dynamics and these shells are much more comfortable compared to f7200 style deep insertion shells I used on singles.



What effect does the removal of the tunning fabric have on the sound? Because I am planning to built a small single ba in ear with the 32257, and I am wondering if I should do the same


----------



## ThanosD (Oct 12, 2018)

Double post by fault


----------



## chips2481

ThanosD said:


> What kind of 3d printer did you use?



That is an sla or dlp 3d printer.  I have an sla and want to try to see how good of prints I can make.  Can you please send me the stl file?  Or if anyone has one I will print and send it to them for only postage cost.


----------



## Ivan TT

ThanosD said:


> What effect does the removal of the tunning fabric have on the sound? Because I am planning to built a small single ba in ear with the 32257, and I am wondering if I should do the same


Turns it into rab-32033, compare bass response of 32033:
https://media.digikey.com/pdf/Data Sheets/Knowles Acoustics PDFs/RAB-32033-000.pdf
32257 are cheaper.


----------



## ThanosD

Ivan TT said:


> Turns it into rab-32033, compare bass response of 32033:
> https://media.digikey.com/pdf/Data Sheets/Knowles Acoustics PDFs/RAB-32033-000.pdf
> 32257 are cheaper.


Oh, ok, So it seems the bass is reduced. The mids seem to stay the same. How does the more "sharp" curves (if that's a term) at about 3kHz translate into sound quality? I can see that the 32033 stays below 115db at that region, in contrary to the 32257, which seems to go a little higher. Does this reduce the treble quality, or it just makes it a little less pronounced? I am not very experienced at translating the graph information yet. How would you describe the sound of the non-tuning fabric RAB-32257? (Sorry for the many questions)


----------



## Bassiklee

what scanner did you use to scan those impressions? What program did you use to trim them?  Just curious.  I have mine done in a lab that does that stuff,  but if I can start doing it in house....


----------



## Ivan TT

ThanosD said:


> Oh, ok, So it seems the bass is reduced. The mids seem to stay the same. How does the more "sharp" curves (if that's a term) at about 3kHz translate into sound quality? I can see that the 32033 stays below 115db at that region, in contrary to the 32257, which seems to go a little higher. Does this reduce the treble quality, or it just makes it a little less pronounced? I am not very experienced at translating the graph information yet. How would you describe the sound of the non-tuning fabric RAB-32257? (Sorry for the many questions)


No worries, I'm not that good with graphs either and never had 32033 so cannot compare.

As to the sound with tuning fabric removed (assuming that bass experiences uplift similar to 32033) it is closer to "golden ear" target, same applies to 3kHz peak, although I tamed the latter down with grey dampener on dual setup (single did not need it, but the shells were deep insertion, so probably not as much ear canal resonance/different frequency compared to dual).

Overall the sound is great and there's no crossover-related issues obviously. Compared to TF10 it is not as V-shaped, it's not unlike dynamic driver sound, dark, but very detailed, especially in HF and has faster and less bloated bass. I am not exactly a basshead, but like bass nevertheless and if you read feedback on Soundlink's ali store lack of bass is the only complain about 32257, but it's such an easy fix 

Given that the total budget for my RAB-32257 dual was below $40 it's a no-brainer


----------



## ThanosD

Ivan TT said:


> No worries, I'm not that good with graphs either and never had 32033 so cannot compare.
> 
> As to the sound with tuning fabric removed (assuming that bass experiences uplift similar to 32033) it is closer to "golden ear" target, same applies to 3kHz peak, although I tamed the latter down with grey dampener on dual setup (single did not need it, but the shells were deep insertion, so probably not as much ear canal resonance/different frequency compared to dual).
> 
> ...



Thanks a lot for the info. It seems fabric-less is the way to go. In about a month I will receive my pair of drivers, and I will be ready to start building the earphones. I bought a set of green dampers, as I had the etymotics ER4XR configuration in mind, but I will definitely try your setup anyway, even with the green dampers. I will post my results here of course


----------



## Ivan TT

ThanosD said:


> I will definitely try your setup anyway, even with the green dampers


I suggest keeping fabric on initially and removing it only if you find bass lacking, after all the tip rolling.
Also, silver or silver plated cables have better synergy with 32257
Looking forward to you findings, take care!


----------



## ThanosD

Ivan TT said:


> I suggest keeping fabric on initially and removing it only if you find bass lacking, after all the tip rolling.
> Also, silver or silver plated cables have better synergy with 32257
> Looking forward to you findings, take care!


Thanks for the suggestion, I guess you are right about the order. I have a fairly cheap, supposedly silver plated, cable from KZ, but I have ordered some silver plated teflon wire to make my own cable. Thanks for the help!


----------



## Shilohsjustice

No 3d printing here, just good old fashioned wax dipped impressions, investment from hydrocolloid, dark smoke Fotoplast SI O lv shells mixed using black resin obsession. Triple drivers wired GK style.


----------



## Bassiklee

Those look great!  They shipped my LV today,  can't wait to try it.


----------



## FlyinUte

Bassiklee said:


> what scanner did you use to scan those impressions? What program did you use to trim them?  Just curious.  I have mine done in a lab that does that stuff,  but if I can start doing it in house....


Can you post a pic or two of the ones your lab made?


----------



## Bassiklee

Sure


----------



## Bassiklee

Second attempt


----------



## RAFAEL DOUGLAS MARTINS (Oct 16, 2018)

Hello everyone, I'm reading the old post, I was trying to figure out how to write a shell
discovering videos and researching about it that uses a laser printer
anyone who has an experience can share , I would be very happy for the help


----------



## Ivan TT (Oct 16, 2018)

Bellsing released 5 driver setup, as has been mentioned here previously: 10025, AKA BRC281C10025.

It has 1 CI and 2xTWFKs, Bellsing versions of those drivers at least.

I acquired a pair and ended up with a bit of a ghetto setup, using nozzles I’ve got on tao sometime ago, with filters installed into 3 channels inside of the nozzle, red for CI, green for one TWFK and white for another.

It’s quite a nice sounding setup, lots of HF sparkle and solid bass (which I thought would be lacking based on FR graphs in datasheet).

Verdict: quite a good set, easy to implement and very economical, around $70 when on sale.


----------



## Jedrula1 (Oct 17, 2018)

Y-tubing story all over again... How do you guys deal with affecting  frequency response while connecting two or more drivers to one tube?
For example: I glued vented 33AJ007i/9 as a low and 2380 as a mid/high together and stretched 2ID bore around two sound outlets. The connection was smooth - without any hops or sharp edges inside the bore.  Then measure it - 3300 FR was almost the same, but 2389 changed significantly between 6 and 9 kHz (level was decreased) and more uneven than single 2389 FR  with one bore.  The damper makes thing even worse.
Another example - 2389 as mid and E25ST glued together and connected in the same way as 3300 and 2389. Now the 2389 FR looks almost good, but the lack of 6-9kHz is visible in E25ST Frequency response.
Same with 3800 and 3100. - 3100 with a gap between 5-10kHz.
Any ideas? Strange thing is that the problem is always on FR of this "smaller" driver in connected and glued pair. How do you deal with it? Or this is just the thing that is always happening and there is nothing to do about it...


----------



## zeed

Shilohsjustice said:


> No 3d printing here, just good old fashioned wax dipped impressions, investment from hydrocolloid, dark smoke Fotoplast SI O lv shells mixed using black resin obsession. Triple drivers wired GK style.



Amazing skill as always! 

PS: did you receive my private message?


----------



## Smgwee1

ThanosD said:


> What kind of 3d printer did you use? I guess it's the uv epoxy type of print, right? It looks very high quality. You could do some polishing, and apply the laquere you would normally use on a standard custom as a finish, and I think they will look even better. How did you 3d scan the impression?



It's SLA printer, i got it done with a audiologist. It's traditional impression, then he scanned with impression. The editing that is a killer, a combination of mesh mixer, fusion 360 and blender. this is my first time dealing with 3D softwares..


----------



## ThanosD

Smgwee1 said:


> It's SLA printer, i got it done with a audiologist. It's traditional impression, then he scanned with impression. The editing that is a killer, a combination of mesh mixer, fusion 360 and blender. this is my first time dealing with 3D softwares..


Yes, I thought so too. Great work. What are you planning to put inside?


----------



## jambul (Oct 18, 2018)

This is my try to diy iem,
Using rab 30233+wbfk 30095 +ed 29689 all in series..
No cross over, all driver work in fullrange

The rab and wbfk being modified by take off the front sound tunnel

I heard this sound balanced from. Mid bass to high

Any idea to. Enhance the sound?

Thanks in advance


----------



## piotrus-g

Jedrula1 said:


> Y-tubing story all over again... How do you guys deal with affecting  frequency response while connecting two or more drivers to one tube?
> For example: I glued vented 33AJ007i/9 as a low and 2380 as a mid/high together and stretched 2ID bore around two sound outlets. The connection was smooth - without any hops or sharp edges inside the bore.  Then measure it - 3300 FR was almost the same, but 2389 changed significantly between 6 and 9 kHz (level was decreased) and more uneven than single 2389 FR  with one bore.  The damper makes thing even worse.
> Another example - 2389 as mid and E25ST glued together and connected in the same way as 3300 and 2389. Now the 2389 FR looks almost good, but the lack of 6-9kHz is visible in E25ST Frequency response.
> Same with 3800 and 3100. - 3100 with a gap between 5-10kHz.
> Any ideas? Strange thing is that the problem is always on FR of this "smaller" driver in connected and glued pair. How do you deal with it? Or this is just the thing that is always happening and there is nothing to do about it...


I can't watch you struggle with this so
Imagine that sound is water - what happens when you increase the pressure of water running through a garden hose? The flow capacity is a finite number. 

Food for thought. Hope that helps


----------



## Jedrula1

piotrus-g said:


> I can't watch you struggle with this so
> Imagine that sound is water - what happens when you increase the pressure of water running through a garden hose? The flow capacity is a finite number.
> 
> Food for thought. Hope that helps



Thank you for an answer! Thats very true. Air from physical point of view is a liquid with low density and viscosity, so the rules are the same as in liquid flow mechanics. 
But... my measurements was made with only one working driver from the pair in y-tubing. First measurement - only 2389, second - only 33AJ007i/9 and finally third with both connected together. The issue was the most visible in first measurement. So the pressure was the same, or even a bit lower, due to bigger inner volume of the tubing caused by stretched part,  as when connecting one sound tube to one driver. Later I can upload some photos od y-tubing and measurements to visualise the problem.


----------



## Jedrula1

Got measurements! We'll focus only on 2389 - thats why 3300 is not connected.  Setup:





Upper: 2389 connected to 2ID 12mm tubing. Bottom: 2389 and 3300 connected into 2ID 12mm tubing stretched gently at the end. Measurements of 2389 (Pink - upper setup, blue - lower setup):






Look at the mess that is happening around 2kHz and between 4-9kHz on the blue FR. Any ideas?


----------



## zeed

So, I can see a shift of the 2,5khz and 5khz (pink) to left and the overall peaks are a bit tamed down (cyan).
Are you sure the tubing lenght is exactly the same?
From the picture it seem that the tubing on the 2 drivers is longer than the one on the driver alone.
The 2389 on the second setup is wired alone or togethet with the 3300 driver?


----------



## Jedrula1

zeed said:


> So, I can see a shift of the 2,5khz and 5khz (pink) to left and the overall peaks are a bit tamed down (cyan).
> Are you sure the tubing lenght is exactly the same?
> From the picture it seem that the tubing on the 2 drivers is longer than the one on the driver alone.
> The 2389 on the second setup is wired alone or togethet with the 3300 driver?


Length is almost the same - measured right now, the difference is 0.2mm. 
Second setup is wired 2389 alone - the problem affects 2389 mainly.


----------



## piotrus-g

Jedrula1 said:


> Got measurements! We'll focus only on 2389 - thats why 3300 is not connected.  Setup:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


block the spout of the 33AJ and measure again


----------



## Jedrula1

Yeah, that makes a difference.... yellow graph is the new one - almost the same as pink. 





Good to know that tubing is not a problem, but the  second driver. So 2389 and 33AJ just does not fit together in one tube? I have similar issue when connecting 2389 to E25ST or 3800 to 1723WT07/9 module - always this smaller one (E25ST, and 2323 from 1723WT07/9) is affected somewhere between 5-10kHz frequencies.  Solution is to tube together two similar-size, or eve the same, drivers?


----------



## zeed

How did you block the spout of the 3300?
I think the problem could due to the fact that the tube is streched to allow 2 drivers and in fact it reacts as a reverse horn tube, giving this strange behaviour.
If for blocking the spout of the 3300 you put some material and in this way you remove some of the added volume to the tube, then it’s like you were using a straight 2ID tube instead of a stretched (rev horn) one.
Just my thoughs


----------



## Jedrula1

zeed said:


> How did you block the spout of the 3300?
> I think the problem could due to the fact that the tube is streched to allow 2 drivers and in fact it reacts as a reverse horn tube, giving this strange behaviour.
> If for blocking the spout of the 3300 you put some material and in this way you remove some of the added volume to the tube, then it’s like you were using a straight 2ID tube instead of a stretched (rev horn) one.
> Just my thoughs


Just a very little amount of blue tack inside the spout. No volume change at all


----------



## piotrus-g

Jedrula1 said:


> Yeah, that makes a difference.... yellow graph is the new one - almost the same as pink.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Solution is to connect the other driver


----------



## Jedrula1

piotrus-g said:


> Solution is to connect the other driver


Yeah, thats what I thought.. gonna do some attempts and share my results here later. Dzięki piotrus-g


----------



## zeed

piotrus-g said:


> Solution is to connect the other driver



Interesting subject indeed.
What I don't get is the theory behind this phenomenon; is it due to the 3300 driver acting like a 2nd air chamber, absorbing and releasing air and messing with HF of the active driver?
But then why connecting the 3300 driver would solve the issue? Both drivers will never play at the same speed since they will play different frequencies and that air suction/release event will be there with both drivers connected too.
Would you mind getting deeper in the explanation?


----------



## piotrus-g

zeed said:


> What I don't get is the theory behind this phenomenon; is it due to the 3300 driver acting like a 2nd air chamber, absorbing and releasing air and messing with HF of the active driver?


exactly


zeed said:


> But then why connecting the 3300 driver would solve the issue? Both drivers will never play at the same speed since they will play different frequencies and that air suction/release event will be there with both drivers connected too.


because then you have diaphragm moving (preferably in the same direction = phase) which creates pressure and moves the air in that driver too


----------



## Xymordos

I remember reading about empty cavities acting as filters somewhere...think it was to do with reducing sound of a car exhaust LOL  - but it works the same with any sound.

I'm guessing the unconnected 3300 driver acted as a tube connected to an empty cavity and became a band pass filter?


----------



## ThanosD (Oct 19, 2018)

Guys, does anybody have any experience with bellsing branded drivers? In some previous posts (a lot of pages before) I read that they sound identical to Knowles. On Ali there is a Bellsing CI-22955 for 9€ a pair, from Soundlink, and I am considering getting a pair, along with a pair of TWFK-30017 for 15€, also Bellsing and from Soundlink.

P.S. What's the difference between SWFK, DWFK and TWFK? I can only see that SWFK has no ports, TWFK has one, and DWFK has two. What are the practical differences between them?


----------



## Mart.oporto

Hi guys!
I have two friends who are fitness athletes and they asked me to make CIEMs of three drivers with a Bluetooth APTx module.
I accepted the challenge so I continue practicing the construction of these headphones that I love but I have a question:

- What Bluetooth module with APTx do you recommend? If is possible, with 2 pins.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

I’ve had a lot of people asking me how I get logos to look perfect with my Laser Engraver. So here is my process. I hope you find value in it.

Starts with a file in the engraving software. 


 

I have created templates for size through trial and error. 

I then select a preview to cut out the border of the image so I can see where I need to place the item to be engraved. I just tape masking tape across, I’m sure I could create a jig but this is easy and doesn’t take any time to setup. 

 

I use condiment cups and blue tack to hold the monitor in place. 

 

I then use a dry erase marker to mark the back of the monitor so I have a reference point to make it straight. 

 

I place the monitor so it’s level with the masking tape and line up the  lines I’ve created on the back of the monitor. 


 

I’ve created marks on my engraver power dial so I know what the ideal power is. This took several hours of trial and error to find the sweet spot for me. 

 

Once done, I inspect and clean the Faceplate to ensure the cut was good and centered. 

 

I created a white paste using, white uv marking paint and Fotoplast. I then take a double pointed tooth pick to carefully work it into the design. 

 

 

Once I have a good base I cure it. 

 

Then I repeat to fill in all the areas, I cure in layers so that there are no thick areas resulting in the top curing and liquid underneath. By doing this I can easily sand all the excess off without jeopardizing the detailed areas. 

I then use a curved tool and spread clear Fotoplast over the top to give a nice appearance. 

 

The results are amazing. 

 

As always, patience it the key to getting it right. The below is final result with a coat of Egger Lacquer.


----------



## Shilohsjustice




----------



## Jedrula1

Shilohsjustice said:


> I’ve had a lot of people asking me how I get logos to look perfect with my Laser Engraver. So here is my process. I hope you find value in it.
> 
> Starts with a file in the engraving software.
> 
> ...


Looks so great  What is your dye to get black opaque?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Jedrula1 said:


> Looks so great  What is your dye to get black opaque?



I use resin obsession.


----------



## MuZo2

Is that your company logo now? you have a pelican case and also a pouch with same logo?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

MuZo2 said:


> Is that your company logo now? you have a pelican case and also a pouch with same logo?



That is the R&B Artist logo. I made them special for him, Artist series.


----------



## Choy Wei De

I have a question. Currently I'm only using mmcx connector and hopefully will go to 2 pin soon. But how do I correctly orient the polarity of the 2 pins connector in the shell? Not a problem for now as I'm only using 1 driver with no RC. But soon will buy like a kit or make my own crossover.

I've just started making universal in ear for now.


----------



## ForceMajeure

Choy Wei De said:


> I have a question. Currently I'm only using mmcx connector and hopefully will go to 2 pin soon. But how do I correctly orient the polarity of the 2 pins connector in the shell? Not a problem for now as I'm only using 1 driver with no RC. But soon will buy like a kit or make my own crossover.
> 
> I've just started making universal in ear for now.



  

for the cable, the pin closest to the colored dot is the positive signal


----------



## zeed

Shilohsjustice said:


>



Awesome results!


----------



## Choy Wei De

ForceMajeure said:


> for the cable, the pin closest to the colored dot is the positive signal



Awesome! Thank you so much.


----------



## Senor CIEM (Oct 30, 2018)

Hi!

Maybe someone can help:
Knowles GV - 4 vents, 2 are covered with 1 yellow tape, the other two with a "black" tape - If all vents are OPEN (tape removed) I should get better bass response, right? Is this working in a closed shell? You guys open the vents or you mean it makes not much difference? I tried it, but to me it's not a huge one.

Shell finish with Fotoplast Lack:
Final finish with the Fotoplast is a bit hard if you want it perfect (100% perfect), I always get very tiny "bubbles" not a lot, just a few on the surface after it has been hardened in the UV light. Any ideas about getting a super and perfect finish? Maybe changing to the Egger Lack instead? Or do you guys buff the shell a bit (to remove tiny bubbles and irregularities and then polish it to high gloss? Any suggestions welcome!

And final question:
Glue the tube to the BA. Best practise? Did it always with fotoplast gel and hardened it, but if the tube gets too much bend in the shell, the tube is getting really easy of the BA. superglue should not be the way to go I read. Any"professional" suggestion? 

Thanks a lot!


----------



## Lucas Taboada

Senor CIEM said:


> Shell finish with Fotoplast Lack:
> Final finish with the Fotoplast is a bit hard if you want it perfect (100% perfect), I always get very tiny "bubbles" not a lot, just a few on the surface after it has been hardened in the UV light. Any ideas about getting a super and perfect finish? Maybe changing to the Egger Lack instead? Or do you guys buff the shell a bit (to remove tiny bubbles and irregularities and then polish it to high gloss? Any suggestions welcome!
> 
> And final question:
> ...



Are you using a rotator to even out the lacquer? if not then it will get better, but I get some imperfections too. From what I've read most people don't but and polish the Lacquer, just the fotoplast.

About the tube, a lot of people use Bondic (Uv glue) or Loctite 495 (superglue but don't release the white "smoke" that can ruin the drivers). I've got great results with Loctite.


----------



## Senor CIEM

Lucas Taboada said:


> Are you using a rotator to even out the lacquer? if not then it will get better, but I get some imperfections too. From what I've read most people don't but and polish the Lacquer, just the fotoplast.
> 
> About the tube, a lot of people use Bondic (Uv glue) or Loctite 495 (superglue but don't release the white "smoke" that can ruin the drivers). I've got great results with Loctite.



Hi! 

Yes. I use the original motor Dreve is selling. It seems the imperfections come after the curing. But curing light is also Dreve original. So idk how you guys get a perfect finish... Maybe its a brush thing? I use the included one.

Thank you!


----------



## Lucas Taboada

Shilohsjustice said:


> Krystalloid is definitely the way to go if you can’t get it, I would use gelatin. I have a couple methods I use for Faceplates and I do not use glycerin to second cure the Faceplates.
> 
> The method I do most is really simple. I use a piece of glass from a 4x6 picture frame. I pour the material on the clean piece of glass and kind of twist it until it spreads out. Remember, Fotoplast cures hard without the tacky layer where there is no oxygen present, so where the Fotoplast is touching the glass it fully cures with no issues. I use an ultraviolet flashlight to cure it, and then I will use a sharp edge to peel from the glass.
> 
> If I need the Faceplate to be thinner or really flat I pour the Fotoplast on the glass then I place another piece of glass on it the flatten it really good like this and cure with UV flashlight. The UV flashlight I use is a alldaymall wF-501B I bought the model that had a rechargeable battery. I’ve had it for years. I use this same flashlight when I fill the canals with Fotoplast using a syringe to lock in the acoustic tubing. I have since purchased a wand but find the flashlight better, maybe because of habit I have learned how to cure effectively with it.



Hey man, thanks for taking the time and posting this!! So when you use one piece of glass you just leave the tacky layer facing the inside of the shell? or do you sand off the tacky layer?


----------



## Lucas Taboada

Anyone knows a good way to paint shells with opaque colours? I'm trying to get a solid black shell, but with the opaque dye that I've tried, it didn't cure well. Already tried painting with nail polish, but the results aren't great either, I've got a lot of imperfections, buildups and it's difficult to know where the lacquer was aplied because of the shiny look of the nail polish.


----------



## Bassiklee

For black shells,  if I don't have them printed that way,  what I do is paint the inside of clear shells.  It's not the easiest thing to do,  but it looks good when you're done


----------



## Lucas Taboada

Bassiklee said:


> For black shells,  if I don't have them printed that way,  what I do is paint the inside of clear shells.  It's not the easiest thing to do,  but it looks good when you're done



Unfortunately that don't look good on my shells too, the spots where the resin got thicker are visible when I paint that way, so you can see it was painted from the inside.


----------



## Bassiklee

Yeah,  that can be an issue.  Maybe paint them flat black on the outside, then you can tell where you've lacquered,  because it will be glossy


----------



## Slater

Senor CIEM said:


> Maybe someone can help:
> Knowles GV - 4 vents, 2 are covered with 1 yellow tape, the other two with a "black" tape - If all vents are OPEN (tape removed) I should get better bass response, right? Is this working in a closed shell? You guys open the vents or you mean it makes not much difference? I tried it, but to me it's not a huge one.



I would appreciate explanation on this as well.

Effect of removing only yellow tape and not black tape?
Effect of removing only black tape and not yellow tape?
Effect of removing both yellow and black tape?

I assume when opening the driver vents, the shell needs to be vented as well to get the maximum effect?


----------



## Caluub

What tools are best for sanding shells before buffing and lacquer? I've sanded by hand and I've used sandpaper mandrels for my Dremel and I'm still having trouble getting into the tight curves and bends of the shell. What grits are recommended? I've been starting at 600 and working up to 2000. My process seems terribly inefficient and I'm hoping there's something I'm missing that could make it easier.


----------



## Einencool

When I apply lacquer, I only sand to 600 grid. After lacquering I don't see any marks of sanding...


----------



## michal1315

Hi, this is my full metal shell set based on GQ-30783. Its produce pretty good natural sound but peak at ~5.5khz slightly overwhelming rest of frequency, now tube is 10mm, 2mm id with brown damper 3mm away from driver. What do you think about make tube 2-3mm shorter? Sonion earphone design guide says its should reduce 2nd peak and push it a little to higher frequency. Shorter tube also provide me make driver better glued to shell, now one side of driver is with out glue.


----------



## Lucas Taboada

Anyone knows a good universal shell in taobao for tuning the drivers? I'm thinking about tuning my drivers, choose dampers etc.. in a universal shell because its easy to assemble since most of them already have room for connectors and take disassemble after. But i'm having doubts in which one to choose, there are too many and I need one that can fit at least 2 sound tubes, if not I can't use it for a GK or GV.

Other question, how to attach a sound tube to the knowles SR-32453? It doesn't have a spout like other drivers and I wanna use in a custom shell, do you guys think this is a good Full range driver?


----------



## michal1315

Lucas Taboada said:


> Anyone knows a good universal shell in taobao for tuning the drivers? I'm thinking about tuning my drivers, choose dampers etc.. in a universal shell because its easy to assemble since most of them already have room for connectors and take disassemble after. But i'm having doubts in which one to choose, there are too many and I need one that can fit at least 2 sound tubes, if not I can't use it for a GK or GV.
> 
> Other question, how to attach a sound tube to the knowles SR-32453? It doesn't have a spout like other drivers and I wanna use in a custom shell, do you guys think this is a good Full range driver?



I spend hours on searching universal shell which has ability to fit 2 sound tubes in nozle and i don't see any. I even thing about buy kz audio earphones and use it shell.
Link to shell which i use, nozle id is 3.2mm. With agent fee was cost me ~ 25$.
https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?sp...2qCDsO&id=536417055706&ns=1&abbucket=6#detail
To SR driver probably you need something like that.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Con...&terminal_id=18ef9049ed3e4c6199cccd4a5c9dad03


----------



## Ivan TT

michal1315 said:


> ts produce pretty good natural sound but peak at ~5.5khz slightly overwhelming rest of frequency


Do you have dampers installed?
Green or brown at the outlet end of tubing should help and knowles tool makes changing them a breese!


----------



## Slater (Nov 13, 2018)

michal1315 said:


> Hi, this is my full metal shell set based on GQ-30783. Its produce pretty good natural sound but peak at ~5.5khz slightly overwhelming rest of frequency, now tube is 10mm, 2mm id with brown damper 3mm away from driver. What do you think about make tube 2-3mm shorter? Sonion earphone design guide says its should reduce 2nd peak and push it a little to higher frequency. Shorter tube also provide me make driver better glued to shell, now one side of driver is with out glue.



Believe it or not, I’m working on something with that exact shell (just a different color).

I am not sure if I’m going to put the GK-31732 or the GV-32830 in it. I got them both during the 11.11 sale.

I also picked up the SR-32453, but I have that planned for a different IEM.


----------



## Lucas Taboada

michal1315 said:


> I spend hours on searching universal shell which has ability to fit 2 sound tubes in nozle and i don't see any. I even thing about buy kz audio earphones and use it shell.
> Link to shell which i use, nozle id is 3.2mm. With agent fee was cost me ~ 25$.
> https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?sp...2qCDsO&id=536417055706&ns=1&abbucket=6#detail
> To SR driver probably you need something like that.
> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Con...&terminal_id=18ef9049ed3e4c6199cccd4a5c9dad03



Thanks for answering! I've been thinking about using this shell too, it seems good. They hold the mmcx connector well without glue? (just for tuning purposes).
I've found this piece where you cut the shell spout and put the sound tubes inside, but I think it only fits 1.5mm ID: https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?sp...665&pvid=ddb6d383-d95e-4c20-b922-1a07cafe0ed6

About the ring for the SR, that will definitely work!! thank you so much! I just can't find anything like that in taobao, do you know what's the name of it in chinese?


----------



## Ivan TT

Lucas Taboada said:


> I've found this piece where you cut the shell spout and put the sound tubes inside, but I think it only fits 1.5mm ID


----------



## Ivan TT

michal1315 said:


> Link to shell which i use, nozle id is 3.2mm. With agent fee was cost me ~ 25$.


Same, but this one does not have cylinder reatainer for 10mm DD driver, easier to fit BAs IMO
https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=575481751486


----------



## Slater

Ivan TT said:


> Same, but this one does not have cylinder reatainer for 10mm DD driver, easier to fit BAs IMO
> https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=575481751486



I wish I had seen those first. I ended up using a Dremel and grinding away the 10mm driver stuff. I also increased the nozzle bore to fit multiple tubes easier.


----------



## Xymordos

Perhaps you could try these universal shells: https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1z0d.7625083.1998302264.6.5c5f4e69RfEGXk&id=580307621189


----------



## michal1315 (Nov 14, 2018)

Lucas Taboada said:


> Thanks for answering! I've been thinking about using this shell too, it seems good. They hold the mmcx connector well without glue? (just for tuning purposes).
> I've found this piece where you cut the shell spout and put the sound tubes inside, but I think it only fits 1.5mm ID: https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?sp...665&pvid=ddb6d383-d95e-4c20-b922-1a07cafe0ed6
> 
> About the ring for the SR, that will definitely work!! thank you so much! I just can't find anything like that in taobao, do you know what's the name of it in chinese?



Mmcx connector holder is make pretty good but in one of my shell it's move back and forward around 1mm when i plug/unplug cable its need considerable force. Then you listening moving is impossible but i use a little of acid free silicone for better holding.

Search for it on taobao 环diy耳机单元扬声器 .


----------



## ForceMajeure (Nov 16, 2018)

Caluub said:


> What tools are best for sanding shells before buffing and lacquer? I've sanded by hand and I've used sandpaper mandrels for my Dremel and I'm still having trouble getting into the tight curves and bends of the shell. What grits are recommended? I've been starting at 600 and working up to 2000. My process seems terribly inefficient and I'm hoping there's something I'm missing that could make it easier.



Use this kind of mandrel and cut a 2cm diameter circle of 600 grit sandpaper. make a hole and place it between the 2 washers.(I recommend to cut smaller cicrl and place it under the first one so it gives a bit of mechanical resistance)
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Another mandrel that is good to have and use in tighter spaces is a split mandrel like this one






cut a strip of 600 grit and place it in there.

with those 2 you should be good enough to reach most places, no need to go higher than 3000 rpm

No need to sand beyond 600 grit if you use lacquer.


----------



## Caluub

ForceMajeure said:


> Use this kind of mandrel and cut a 2cm diameter circle of 600 grit sandpaper. make a hole and place it between the 2 washers.(I recommend to cut smaller cicrl and place it under the first one so it gives a bit of mechanical resistance)
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Those are the types of mandrels I have. Thank you!


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Unconventional driver configuration - I have been prototyping and might be onto something that sounds really really good. 

I am shocked at the detail and clarity, sounds super crisp as well.


----------



## Bassiklee

Does that one on the left have no spout?


----------



## Ivan TT

Shilohsjustice said:


> Unconventional driver configuration - I have been prototyping and might be onto something that sounds really really good.
> 
> I am shocked at the detail and clarity, sounds super crisp as well.


What they?


----------



## jambul (Nov 27, 2018)

Seem like. Fed and ci and dtec. I doubt the fr still the same once it got in to the shell. I got bwfk and ed and take off the spout.. I like the sound without crossover just arrange in series to level the spl


----------



## Shilohsjustice (Nov 27, 2018)

Bassiklee said:


> Does that one on the left have no spout?


 Correct, no spout. ED 30761


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Ivan TT said:


> What they?


ED 30761
ED 29689
HODVTEC 31618


----------



## zeed

Shilohsjustice said:


> ED 30761
> ED 29689
> HODVTEC 31618



Sorry to bother, but I replied to your PM.
Give it a check


----------



## Xymordos

Woah those are some long tubing o.O


----------



## jbr1971

Shilohsjustice said:


> Unconventional driver configuration - I have been prototyping and might be onto something that sounds really really good.
> 
> I am shocked at the detail and clarity, sounds super crisp as well.



Given how long those tubes are, & how much you will have to trim them for final fit, do you anticipate much of a change in the sound?

I seem to recall reading the length of the tubes can affect sound signatures, potentially quite a bit.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Xymordos said:


> Woah those are some long tubing o.O


Lol, I usually always do multiple tes


jbr1971 said:


> Given how long those tubes are, & how much you will have to trim them for final fit, do you anticipate much of a change in the sound?
> 
> I seem to recall reading the length of the tubes can affect sound signatures, potentially quite a bit.




Length of tubing absolutely affect the frequency, I should have better specified in the pic. The pic with the long tubing is first test checking drivers are outputting proper range without drop offs, I slip loose tubing on the ends to test. The frequency pic is one of 5 or 6 tests, final tube length is approx 10-12mm on the HODVTEC w/ yellow damper and 30761 w/ red damper and 7-10mm on the 29689. When I closed the shells there was a reduction in the 2k-5k range with a smooth roll off, very easy to listen too with high clarity.


----------



## Ivan TT

Shilohsjustice said:


> ED 30761
> ED 29689
> HODVTEC 31618


No crossover?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Ivan TT said:


> No crossover?



that’s the secret sauce, I may share it but not just yet!!!!


----------



## zeed

Shilohsjustice said:


> that’s the secret sauce, I may share it but not just yet!!!!



Nice drivers selection indeed!
Have you also taken measurements of the shell with the trimmed tubing and closed faceplate?


----------



## Shilohsjustice

Yes, I will post hopefully tonight or tomorrow. I am traveling with work so not sure when.


----------



## jambul (Nov 28, 2018)

Shilohsjustice said:


> that’s the secret sauce, I may share it but not just yet!!!!


Great work, looking forward to it. Im done with ed 29689, wbfk and rab. All work in full range, no crossover the rab and wbfk spout being take off and no filter, the series config result  not enough power to wbfk, i did some in pararel and series to ed. Now iam Working with ci, fed, ed and wbfk.. Might use r to level the spl the ci and ed..i might put some thing in the nozle to tune the overall sound


----------



## Kulgrinda

Hi. Looking for advice regarding drivers. I have GK-31732 on the way and was wondering if damper would be needed for mid-high frequency part of the driver? I would really like to avoid sibilance, this is a sensitive matter to me. I was browsing this thread and was unable to find any sound description of this driver. 

Ps. work you guys do is inspiring  I'll post my result when all the materials arrive and I'll find time for this project.


----------



## Ivan TT

Shilohsjustice said:


> that’s the secret sauce, I may share it but not just yet!!!!


Please do!
Can't wait...
How's bass?


----------



## Ivan TT

Kulgrinda said:


> Hi. Looking for advice regarding drivers. I have GK-31732 on the way and was wondering if damper would be needed for mid-high frequency part of the driver? I would really like to avoid sibilance, this is a sensitive matter to me. I was browsing this thread and was unable to find any sound description of this driver.
> 
> Ps. work you guys do is inspiring  I'll post my result when all the materials arrive and I'll find time for this project.


I believe red on CI and green on TWFK are considered go to dampers for GK. 
But also consider moving one step up or down in terms of acoustic resistance to tune your IEM to your liking.


----------



## Slater (Nov 28, 2018)

Has anyone had issues with buying BAs from Soundlink on Aliexpress?

I ordered some Knowles 32830 during 11.11.

They shipped them with ZERO protection. Just the $100 worth of BAs tossed in a ziplock baggie inside a shipping envelope.

The shipping envelope has tire marks from getting run over, and there is a big hole in the envelope as well as through both of the inner ziplock baggies.

1 BA driver is totally missing, obviously from ripped out of the package. The other driver has a huge dent in the body, and the bass sounds distorted.

I am surprised and quite disappointed they didn't wrap the BAs better - in bubble wrap, or in a small plastic box, or whatever. I know they can't prevent some random fork lift guy from doing doughnuts all over my package, but that is total BS not to at least package the drivers with minimal protection.

I opened a dispute, so we'll see what happens. Hopefully I don't get the runaround 



Spoiler: Photos


----------



## vladstef

Slater said:


> Has anyone had issues with buying BAs from Soundlink on Aliexpress?
> 
> I ordered some Knowles 32830 during 11.11.
> 
> ...



I am quite surprised to see this. I've ordered a bunch of stuff from them including a few BAs and they packed it in a cardboard box (also around 100$ worth). Inside, BAs were in those rose plastic bags but given how large the bags were compared to BAs, leftover plastic acted as a much needed cushion and everything was fine. I am sure that they will refund or resend, Soundlink is a Knowles distributor and should be trusted, at least I'd expect so.

Give us an update when all is said and done.


----------



## Slater

vladstef said:


> I am quite surprised to see this. I've ordered a bunch of stuff from them including a few BAs and they packed it in a cardboard box (also around 100$ worth). Inside, BAs were in those rose plastic bags but given how large the bags were compared to BAs, leftover plastic acted as a much needed cushion and everything was fine. I am sure that they will refund or resend, Soundlink is a Knowles distributor and should be trusted, at least I'd expect so.
> 
> Give us an update when all is said and done.



Will do.

I also had a 2nd totally separate order, of more BAs and some tubing. That order was packaged the exact same way (no protection whatsoever).

I haven’t tested those drivers yet, but visually they look OK (plus the outer envelope is free of tire marks). I am assuming the parts in that order are OK, despite the lack of packaging protection.


----------



## Bassiklee

I've ordered thousands of dollars worth of stuff from them.  Never an issue.  I always opt for the faster shipping though too.


----------



## Pete64

Slater said:


> Will do.
> 
> I also had a 2nd totally separate order, of more BAs and some tubing. That order was packaged the exact same way (no protection whatsoever).
> 
> I haven’t tested those drivers yet, but visually they look OK (plus the outer envelope is free of tire marks). I am assuming the parts in that order are OK, despite the lack of packaging protection.





Me to always got my orders well packed in a cardbox! Must be some new guy packing? I guess there will be not to much trouble if you sent them photos of package. I used to always do a ”unboxing” film when buying from Aliexpress, but not so much lately, to use as evidence if there was any problem.


----------



## Kulgrinda

Ivan TT said:


> en on TWFK are considered go to dampers for GK.
> But also consider moving one step up or down



thank you for information. I doubt I will be able to test and fine-tune sound without having to damage already assembled earphone. 

In general could somebody share sound impressions of CI and TWFK drivers? If CI will be left undampened - is it going to be very bassy? The same for TWDK - is it harsh and sibilant undampened? Judging by the GK graph 2.5 khz and especially 5khz peaks look worrying.


----------



## Bassiklee

Grace is good people.  She's always been great with me.  They will get you taken care of.


----------



## playpunk

Hey Guys:

I'm a longtime lurker on this thread, but have just started to make my own IEM. I have a problem I'm trying to overcome - my shells are "icing over" at the top of cast. I'm using clear fotoplast, a small LED nail lamp, and can't figure out what I'm doing wrong. If I cure the shells for 90 seconds, the shells are totally sealed (even when I have something over the top of the cast), but if I cure for shorter times the shells are too thin, or have uncured portions, etc. 

I'm kind of frustrated, because the shells I've made (well, some shells, some hard acrylic ear plugs) fit well, and I'm pretty sure the electronic stuff won't be a problem.

 Any ideas to fix the problem I'm having?


----------



## Bassiklee

It sounds like whatever you're covering them with isn't effectively blocking the light. I use black plastic I cut from something.


----------



## playpunk

Bassiklee said:


> It sounds like whatever you're covering them with isn't effectively blocking the light. I use black plastic I cut from something.



Thanks!!


----------



## ForceMajeure (Dec 1, 2018)

Slater said:


> Has anyone had issues with buying BAs from Soundlink on Aliexpress?
> 
> I ordered some Knowles 32830 during 11.11.
> 
> ...


Ouch those pictures make me feel sad lol.

Soundlink is probably the store with the best service on aliexpress. Grace has always been there and she's always willing to help. I am sure things will turn out ok



Bassiklee said:


> It sounds like whatever you're covering them with isn't effectively blocking the light. I use black plastic I cut from something.



Speaking of which I want to share a quick tip.
Using a flat black cover on top of the investment can sometimes lead to part of the shell not curing nicely because the investment is filled up to the top and it touches the cover...when removing it sometimes part of the upper walls might not be cured completely/evenly and part of the resin cures on the cover which is annoying and require fixing it manually adding resin and cure with a uv gun

I personally have been using a small jar cap that happened to fit the diameter of the investment and its height is just right to not touch the uv light inside the curing box (the cap height is 8mm and diameter about 45mm). I have taped the inside of that cap (that was silver) with black tape and never had since an issue with uneven curing at the top anymore. the cap basically creates a gap between its "ceiling" and the top of the shell, allowing me to fill the investment up to the top and not worry about anything.

Any opaque cap with the right dimensions will work for that and for anyone concerned that the gap might allow some light to cure the top of the shell well it doesn't.

I highly recommend anyone to use that "tip".


----------



## Bassiklee

I'm not sure I follow your question.  The cover I'm using works well.  I do like the idea of the cap,  as referenced above.


----------



## IvanNOON

Hey everyone, I've been lurking around Head-Fi for a number of years now and this thread in particular for a couple months.
Just wanted to say thanks to Piotr, Shiloh and everyone else for all of the interesting and usefull information here.

Bought a buttload of drivers recently and currently experimenting. Expect some posts!


----------



## Caluub

I'm having huge issues with pits or air bubbles inside my shells. I carefully check for air bubbles when I cure with glycerin but I always end up with pits on the inside. Is there a particular way to avoid this?


----------



## Einencool

Caluub said:


> I'm having huge issues with pits or air bubbles inside my shells. I carefully check for air bubbles when I cure with glycerin but I always end up with pits on the inside. Is there a particular way to avoid this?



After pouring out the acrylic you need to cure the shell again before you put in the glycerin.
When the acrylic is not fully cured, you'll get tiny bubbles


----------



## mattmatt

How do you guys mount MMCX without having to sand after? This was a;ways my issue.


----------



## Lucas Taboada

Hello, I've bought some stuff from Taobao, and the seller didn't sent the right stuff, this item is missing: https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?_u=b3l8511gdb13&id=560131088665

So, I use Yoybuy to redirect my orders from Taobao. The package arrived in the Yoybuy warehouse November 21 and I received it today here in Brazil and discovered that this item was missing. The seller is saying in the chat that it took too long for me to say that something are missing and don't wan't to refund me. It was impossible to know that the item was missing before because the shipping time. Anyone know what can I do? Asking for a refund in the Taobao site will work? or the seller can still say no? 

From what I understand the seller is willing to ship it again to Yoybuy, but it's not worth it because I don't have anything to redirect to my country and paying the shipping just for this item isn't viable.

Anyone can help me? This is the second time i'm having trouble with this seller by the way, the first time I've bought 2 meters of sound tube and he sent just one. Watch out!


----------



## michal1315

Hi. Can someone with longer experience with ba driver tell me how looks lifespan of knowles acustic damper? I my case after 2 weeks damper mounted in earphones has much higher resistance than new, volume level also is decreased.


----------



## Bassiklee

Sounds like the damper is getting wet,  or full of wax.


----------



## tsito

Hello.

For those who might interest, I'm noob with DIY IEM but thanks to EveryCircuit I was able to make my own IEM. This is the example http://everycircuit.com/circuit/5514077370843136


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Dec 21, 2018)

Furco said:


> .


i am not able to read the guide properly

the google doc one

everything is crossed


----------



## Furco

dhruvmeena96 said:


> i am not able to read the guide properly
> 
> the google doc one
> 
> everything is crossed




All fixed!  Thanks for brining it to my attention.


----------



## Furco

mattmatt said:


> How do you guys mount MMCX without having to sand after? This was a;ways my issue.



I use a round grinding bit on my rotary tool (e.g. Dremel) and just cut a seat for the circular section of the MMCX jack.  I keep grinding deeper until jack sits flush with the top of my shell and then I "lock" it in with some UV resin.  The top plate on the shell secures it from ever falling out and the extra UV resin I encase it with inside the shell prevents it from getting pushed into the shell when I'm changing cables and such,   Hopefully that makes sense.

Cheers!


----------



## Furco

Shilohsjustice said:


>




Holy hell!! That's awesome!  Thanks for sharing your process.


----------



## Squirg

Furco said:


> Holy hell!! That's awesome!  Thanks for sharing your process.



I concur!  Thanks for sharing!  Glad your back!  And thanks for reminding me that I need to post more!  Merry Christmas to those who are into that!


----------



## Squirg

Lucas Taboada said:


> Hello, I've bought some stuff from Taobao, and the seller didn't sent the right stuff, this item is missing: https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?_u=b3l8511gdb13&id=560131088665
> 
> So, I use Yoybuy to redirect my orders from Taobao. The package arrived in the Yoybuy warehouse November 21 and I received it today here in Brazil and discovered that this item was missing. The seller is saying in the chat that it took too long for me to say that something are missing and don't wan't to refund me. It was impossible to know that the item was missing before because the shipping time. Anyone know what can I do? Asking for a refund in the Taobao site will work? or the seller can still say no?
> 
> ...



I’ve had similar issues and unfortunately, I don’t think there is much you can do. I had my bank get involved and they helped me out. I always know I’m taking a risk buying from those sites. The prices are so good but it’s a gamble. Sorry man.


----------



## mattmatt

Furco said:


> I use a round grinding bit on my rotary tool (e.g. Dremel) and just cut a seat for the circular section of the MMCX jack.  I keep grinding deeper until jack sits flush with the top of my shell and then I "lock" it in with some UV resin.  The top plate on the shell secures it from ever falling out and the extra UV resin I encase it with inside the shell prevents it from getting pushed into the shell when I'm changing cables and such,   Hopefully that makes sense.
> 
> Cheers!



My main problem is the excess resin outside the shell for attaching the female mmcx. I alway have a lump around the mmcx so i have to sand it and it's really hard to avoid the mmcx when sanding around it.


----------



## Bassiklee

mattmatt said:


> My main problem is the excess resin outside the shell for attaching the female mmcx. I alway have a lump around the mmcx so i have to sand it and it's really hard to avoid the mmcx when sanding around it.




Can you post a picture of what you're talking about?


----------



## Furco

mattmatt said:


> My main problem is the excess resin outside the shell for attaching the female mmcx. I alway have a lump around the mmcx so i have to sand it and it's really hard to avoid the mmcx when sanding around it.



I may have to clear off my workbench and unpack my IEM supplies and take some pics of my process.  I’m between hobbies at the moment but I have some people I’d like to make IEMs for.  I’ll see what I can post next week when off work.


----------



## IvanNOON (Dec 25, 2018)

Kind of a noob question...
What should be considered in crossover calculations, overall impedence or impedence at 1kHz? Or impedence at crossover frequency?
For example for CI-22955 overall = 19Ohm, @1k = 68Ohm and @500Hz = 47Ohm


----------



## eunice (Dec 26, 2018)

Hello everyone,

I am incredibly thankful for this thread. Such a respectful and helpful community. I pretty much hope, I can become a valuable member too.

I spent the last few months reading the entire thread, planning and tinkering.

Here is the second pair I built (first pair was similar design, but broke quickly):


Spoiler: Photos
























It's a simple Knowles GV build using Dreve Fotoplast as shell material. Will try the Bellsing 5-driver and then piotrus-gs recipe from page 265. My ultimate goal is a hybrid with a dynamic driver for bass.

I have a million questions, but the most pressing is this:

How to grind/buff/polish the shells after sanding (I use a dome tip for a dremel for grinding). I tried a million different ways to get the shell clean again after sanding, the best I came up with to use 1200 wet sanding paper to even out  the worst scratches, then a rubber cylinder tip on the dremel and then finish with a leather disc. But it's a time consuming process and I cannot get it to be 100% clear, it stays a little foggy (as you can see in the pictures)

I am simply to clumsy with a paintbrush to get a good finish with Dreve Lack 3 (I always get drops, bubbles), so I would prefer to use laquer only on the inside and a manual polishing process on the outside.

Best regards


----------



## tsito

Hello head-fier
anyone try balanced armature from this Chinese manufacturer yet? I found many of them on taobao.com


----------



## Choy Wei De (Dec 27, 2018)

tsito said:


> Hello head-fier
> anyone try balanced armature from this Chinese manufacturer yet? I found many of them on taobao.com



I bought a few China clone drivers, my suggestion is just go for the real deal knowles. These Chinese drivers trying replicate the original model and modifications. But very often they compromise on last 10-20% of the quality.


I bought bellsing and knowles ED29689. Bellsing sound flatter, but you still need to use orange filter to get the low frequency. The bright mid of knowles is lacking in bellsing. It turns out that bellsing is neither here nor there.


I also bought knowles RAB 32257, bellsing 32257 and the seller you mention single driver 32257 and dual driver 32257. Bellsing’s sound stage is narrower and messier, and the high has more roll off. The Taobao single 32257 is way flatter, smoother, I haven’t fully try it out yet because I spend my time on next 2 drivers. The Taobao dual driver is very bassy but the high is very roll off even without any filters. It has a lot of dip after 4kHz, male vocal very forward, female is laid back, some electric guitar is loud, and some very high frequency is roll off. Quite a messy replica.

And it bring back the knowles 32257. The bass is very punchy and well control.  The mid is forward and high is very bright, I used grey filter to control the sibilant a bit. There’s minimum or no roll off on the high. I wouldn’t want to use white filter as it might make the bass too overpowering. Not that I didn’t remove the vent filter yet, and the bass is already very strong.


End of the day, just get the real knowles Drivers. You won’t regret it. The only time I’ll suggest to get a China clone driver is when you really very unfamiliar with diy iem. Personally I destroyed 1 or 2 pairs of drivers. Now I feel more confident in making my own iem, that’s why I changed to use knowles drivers.


----------



## tsito

Choy Wei De said:


> I bought a few China clone drivers, my suggestion is just go for the real deal knowles. These Chinese drivers trying replicate the original model and modifications. But very often they compromise on last 10-20% of the quality.
> 
> 
> I bought bellsing and knowles ED29689. Bellsing sound flatter, but you still need to use orange filter to get the low frequency. The bright mid of knowles is lacking in bellsing. It turns out that bellsing is neither here nor there.
> ...


thank you.

I just start making DIY iem, I think maybe imma try them before going to knowles


----------



## Amberlamps (Dec 27, 2018)

mattmatt said:


> My main problem is the excess resin outside the shell for attaching the female mmcx. I alway have a lump around the mmcx so i have to sand it and it's really hard to avoid the mmcx when sanding around it.



I used super glue to glue my shells back, what I like about the glue was it was gorilla super glue that could either be used as a single drop glue dispenser or, if you unscrewed the cap, there was a little brush on the inside of the cap and it’s much much easier and more precise to use than normal drop glue dispensers.

This is just for normal iem’s not home made resin ones, but I thought it would fit in this thread incase anyone had their shells come apart and were looking in here for help.

I know this might not come in handy for yourself, but for normal iem’s this brush applicator works much better than a drop of glue.


----------



## AudiophileInTheMaking

Besides MMCX and 2 pin connectors, what other options are there for IEMs? I am looking for an 8 pin connector. Any thoughts?


----------



## IvanNOON

AudiophileInTheMaking said:


> Besides MMCX and 2 pin connectors, what other options are there for IEMs? I am looking for an 8 pin connector. Any thoughts?


What do you need 8 pins for?

Other options are Jerry Harvey's 4-pin, linum's T2 , this and some other 2-pin variant that I can't find atm.
You can even use USB C if you want


----------



## AudiophileInTheMaking

IvanNOON said:


> What do you need 8 pins for?
> 
> Other options are Jerry Harvey's 4-pin, linum's T2 , this and some other 2-pin variant that I can't find atm.
> You can even use USB C if you want



I am wanting to experiment with 4BAs in each IEM that are driven on independent channels by an 8 channel DAC. This will allow me to do equalization, crossover, delay compensation et. digitally in AU LABS rather than dealing with RC circuitry and maybe even without dampers. 

Using a 711 style coupler, I can tune each channel individually and use REW with VITUIXCAD to solve the correct equalization per BA/channel.

Taking active IEM crossover to the next level lol.

I think I am going with  8pin mini usb for the IEM side and 19pin HDMI for the dac side of the cable. 
Am I correct in thinking I should avoid a common 'ground' in this experiment? (8 leads per IEM vs 5)


----------



## Slater

AudiophileInTheMaking said:


> I am wanting to experiment with 4BAs in each IEM that are driven on independent channels by an 8 channel DAC. This will allow me to do equalization, crossover, delay compensation et. digitally in AU LABS rather than dealing with RC circuitry and maybe even without dampers.
> 
> Using a 711 style coupler, I can tune each channel individually and use REW with VITUIXCAD to solve the correct equalization per BA/channel.
> 
> ...



If it's just for experimentation and testing purposes, you could use RJ45 cables and jacks.


----------



## AudiophileInTheMaking

Slater said:


> If it's just for experimentation and testing purposes, you could use RJ45 cables and jacks.


Yeah, I considered that, but they are so bulky. The jack is 3/4 the size of an IEM.


----------



## Slater

AudiophileInTheMaking said:


> Yeah, I considered that, but they are so bulky. The jack is 3/4 the size of an IEM.



I was just thinking because they are cheap, plentiful, thick enough conductor, and easy to wire up. It would be good for prototyping, and then once you have your final design switch to something more compact.

Another option would be micro JST plugs. Still cheap, very easy to work with, snd much more compact than RJ45.

_5pcs Micro JST 2.0 PH 8-Pin Connector plug with Wires Cables 300MM:
_
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01E3MGTWI/ref


----------



## AudiophileInTheMaking

Slater said:


> I was just thinking because they are cheap, plentiful, thick enough conductor, and easy to wire up. It would be good for prototyping, and then once you have your final design switch to something more compact.
> 
> Another option would be micro JST plugs. Still cheap, very easy to work with, snd much more compact than RJ45.
> 
> ...



I like those. They have a small pitch but arent overly fragile. Some of the connectors I found were only rated for 10 mating cycles. Granted they were for board to board applications, but nothing else is of similar size.


----------



## Slater (Dec 27, 2018)

AudiophileInTheMaking said:


> I like those. They have a small pitch but arent overly fragile. Some of the connectors I found were only rated for 10 mating cycles. Granted they were for board to board applications, but nothing else is of similar size.



I would rate micro JST at a lot more than 10 cycles, but it depends on how much you man handle the plugs.

The important thing to remember with JST is to pry on the plastic plug, not pull by the cable.

If you suspect you will be plugging and unplugging them a lot, you can also reduce wear by using an xacto knife and trimming off the little raised strip that ‘locks’ them in place.

2 more 8-pin options:

1. A female ribbon cable. Like the old IDE disk drives. You can find them in any size, including an 8-pin configuration (for serial stuff for example). Then in the IEM side you would just mount the row of male header pins (which you usually snap off how much you need before soldering them). A 4x2 row of header pins would be fairly light and compact. And that would have a very robust insertion cycle rating (in the thousands).

2. Apple lightning, which you would have to custom wire up to access all pins individually. But you can get the DIY female and male cable ends from the usual places - Aliexpress, eBay, Amazon, etc.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

AudioObsession said:


> Also:  I did find this store here that sells them (along with a bunch of other really cool DIY parts):
> https://greensense.aliexpress.com/store/323026?spm=2114.12010608.0.0.398a2fa5VmpSUX
> But, I HATE shopping at AliExpress because it takes forever for your order to arrive, -IF- it even does arrive.
> 
> ...


Chitty's store is good

but in USA you can go to Mousers or https://earphonediylabs.com/ for dynamic drivers

later has XWB dynamic driver which is way more amazing than any Bio diaphragm if tuned properly


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Rabid86 said:


> Hello again! I have been trying to finish up the electronical notch-filter and it has worked pretty well! My problem, however, is that the high frequencies gets affected aswell.
> Here is a graph of the headphones before and after the use of the filter:
> 
> 
> ...


https://www.head-fi.org/threads/diy-universal-iem-from-er4s-to-f111-and-beyond.718262/

this will help you in treble region

do this mod, it will start raising the damping you did, but not that substantially


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Im1fan2nv said:


> What is this tornado equalizer tube? If you don't mind me asking. I don't believe I've heard of that but it sounds very interesting for low end.


http://earphonia.com/interviews/interview-makoto-yamagishi-ocharaku-corporation/

all of his tech

i m sorry for late reply


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Dec 31, 2018)

ltltmartin said:


> Hi Limoster and everyone, I'm a newbie as well and I just completed my first diem project, (in a very improvised fashion tho) which is quite similar to what you are planning. I can't really comment on your setup due to my inexperience, but here is my result:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



hmm

i think, SWFK driver is capable of 10kHz, it is just that it is placed a little away. by the way your tuning is amazing

try adding one more SWFK with bigger cap to roll off low freq as much, keep 10kHz as high point there, at same phase as old SWFK. It will add up and produce 10kHZ

because according to knowles data, diyearphone website and other diy selling website, they show that SWFK does better extension than TWFK, or add extra RAB(Non vented) driver in phase with ED with a 10uF cap., it can fill up the 4 to 8kHz area and add some 10khz.

but add damper to it according to taste as it can make your old 4Khz peak even sharper, which is bad

or try horn design, it can slightly get your 10kHz back

hmmmm, by the way, one of the best implementation of hybrid design

by the way, which 10mm DD is that


----------



## dhruvmeena96

well, i am a single driver person myself
i am thinking of making into Multi driver setup

HODVTEC-31618(extreme lows)
CI-22960(low)
ED-29689(Mids)
SWFK-31736(Highs)


@ltltmartin well this is from your hybrid design theory on page488

Exchanging the dynamic to Balanced armature with vents opened

can i get to know the tube length instead of diameter

thankyou


----------



## dhruvmeena96

tomscy2000 said:


> Lots of companies use a stepped horn design. The UERM uses a stepped horn for its tweeter portion. piotrus-g's CustomArt creations are mostly horn-loaded designs. LivezoneR41 use horn designs too. Actually, there are too many companies that use it that I can't really think of all of them at the moment.
> 
> FullCircle designed the 6.A with a stepped reverse horn for one set of woofers.
> 
> ...


It can be folded, if a person is using single driver


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Feb 17, 2021)

Sinzo said:


> Those armatures are legit - I've bought some CL varients from Taobao before for $1.50 each - the actual cost is mostly the shipping with the forwarding agent.
> 
> I've been away for a while , and during that time I compiled a list of materials from Taobao, using these would significantly reduce the cost of building.
> 
> ...





lol

it is shell, Loushi drivers(i think some of the native Chinese cannot pronounce knowles properly....CI, TWFK), female 0.75mm connector and stuff on you bill

not a master of chinese, just know a little kanji from japanese so i was able to comprehend some letters though

by the way colsan micro as started selling electrostatic drivers


----------



## mattmatt

hey anybody knows why Westone uses pressure pots for their acrylic? what method are they using?


----------



## ThanosD (Jan 1, 2019)

mattmatt said:


> hey anybody knows why Westone uses pressure pots for their acrylic? what method are they using?



Edit: Nvm, I confused the vacuum chamber with pressure pots. Slater gave the correct explanation.


----------



## Slater (Jan 1, 2019)

mattmatt said:


> hey anybody knows why Westone uses pressure pots for their acrylic? what method are they using?



Pressure pots are an alternative to vacuum chambers when casting resins.

Both can give crystal clear, bubble free castings.

One compresses the air down with pressure so you can’t even see any bubbles. The other sucks the air out with vacuum.

This Peter Brown (dude makes some cool stuff) video explains the difference and the pros and cons of each:


----------



## mattmatt

Slater said:


> Pressure pots are an alternative to vacuum chambers when casting resins.
> 
> Both can give crystal clear, bubble free castings.
> 
> ...



Well, I don't think that they use UV curing. Know what they are using?


----------



## Slater (Jan 1, 2019)

mattmatt said:


> Well, I don't think that they use UV curing. Know what they are using?



Peter brown uses a number of different resins. I don’t think I’ve ever seen him use UV resin though.

However, the idea is the same. When mixing any epoxy, air bubbles are introduced. After mixing but before mold pouring, it can be put in a pressure pot or vacuum chamber to eliminate the air bubbles.

Once it comes out of the chamber, the bubble free resin can then be pointed into a mold.

For UV activated resin, it then goes through the extra step of UV curing. But that step is done later, so whether it was vacuum degassed or pressure potted beforehand shouldn’t matter.


----------



## mattmatt

Slater said:


> Peter brown uses a number of different resins. I don’t think I’ve ever seen him use UV resin though.
> 
> However, the idea is the same. When mixing any epoxy, air bubbles are introduced. After mixing but before mold pouring, it can be put in a pressure pot or vacuum chamber to eliminate the air bubbles.
> 
> ...


Oh okay. any idea how westone does their shells?


----------



## Slater

mattmatt said:


> Oh okay. any idea how westone does their shells?



No, but I assume it can’t be too far off from how everybody else does it.


----------



## leapof

Hi guys!

I've been tampering with different wood faceplates lately and I came up with this pattern which I am quite fond of. Just a GK inside, but really happy with the result overall!!


----------



## eunice

leapof said:


> Hi guys!
> 
> I've been tampering with different wood faceplates lately and I came up with this pattern which I am quite fond of. Just a GK inside, but really happy with the result overall!!



They are gorgous. What is your process, do you put resin on a plate and add the wood on top? Or do you first glue the wood on the IEM and cover with resin later? How do you get them so shiney? Lacker or buffing or both?


----------



## leapof

eunice said:


> They are gorgous. What is your process, do you put resin on a plate and add the wood on top? Or do you first glue the wood on the IEM and cover with resin later? How do you get them so shiney? Lacker or buffing or both?



I had to glue the wood pieces together first, then cover them with resin and glue the whole thing to the shell. Finished the whole thing with Lack 3 and voilà!


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jan 3, 2019)

@piotrus-g @Slater @CoiL @Furco

i have this question
can we add zobel circuit and theile network to BA

i know, you gonna ask about the inductor involved in the theile network and the saturation effect plus the electromagnet effect affecting the freq of BA

i think i can shield the BA and coil, but that is not the solution

but how to avoid saturation in small coil is main issue

does anyone here has proper electrical knowledge to either guide me or make a theile network example with RC circuit layout, if it is possible

i am using Knowles ED26821. Its a fabulous driver, i think it is better to my ears compared to ED29698 and ED30262. I had to sell my pair of measuring unit in 2017 due to financial crisis so i cannot exactly tell why i like this driver. it just sounds good

My question to tagged guys is

1. if you guys know about the stuff i am talking, can you tell me how it is gonna affect the sound in IEM??
2. Where do i get driver specs
3. @piotrus-g is ED26821 technically better than those two in reproduction of spectrum or my ears are fooling me


from my speaker building experience, properly designed Zobel circuit, Theile network and Baffle diffraction compensation makes a DIY project very amazing in sound(Markaudio Alpair 7.3 frugel horn)

plus now i days i test my project with AUDIOSTAX CD

https://www.discogs.com/Various-The-Space-Sound-CD-Dummy-Head-Recording/release/7870641

It tells you about space, image and placement in accurate testing

@piotrus-g i should not post the info coming now here but i raised the CD recording above

FIBAE 1 Universal destroyed the following iem in AUDIOSTAX test and Philips Golden records plus Soundgym was easier on FIBAE 1


ETYMOTIC ER4XR(they are better in defining in low notes in space compared to SR): FIBAE 1 image or harmonics were clear by margin
Campfire Orion Cerakote : FIBAE 1 clinical definition takes the lead
JH audio LAYLA : LAYLA structures everything artificially big and hollow or sucked out guitar strings on test(I dont have LAYLA II)

Benchmark DAC 2 HGC as testbed amp and DAC

Benchmark test
Soundgym all training program
Audiostax CD
Kenshi yonezu lemon(real world test)
BTS and Blackpink


well i tried you dual CI and TWFK reverse version

@piotrus-g
This is a bad comparison.................. as two of @piotrus-g creation is what i am going to compare

one he gave to masses for free on this thread and one what he created in his lab

FIBAE 1 vs scary crossover



on blackpink this song

at time 0:11 to 0:15

exactly between 0:12 to 0:13, producers of the music added a tone which if not noticed, gives a sound of somebody slamming the door at full power

FIBAE 1: the tone was more noticeable instead of effect but the air rendered was enough to give that door feeling

Your Dual CI and TWFK scary crossover(said by some members)mk2 by @piotrus-g : This things shakes the heart, i always get startled(Literal one). i was sleepy one day, listening to this song, and it scared the crap out of me in a good way. Air rendered is amazing, but the total rumble and bass air was intense. It was like Bone conduction haptic feedback crossover-ed at 40Hz. Stage was bigger and nothing got bloated.

Tiffany young - Over my skin

FIBAE 1: there is small metal sound on left channel, dont know if it is cymbal or what, sound amazing and rendered....Way clear and crisp compared to Etymotic ER4.Actually leagues better. Perfection. Cannot explain this sound

Dual CI and TWFK scary crossover by @piotrus-g : Energy, making this left metal sound come a little in front compared to FIBAE 1 perfect placement. vocals seem more clear but not as textured as FIBAE 1


What creeps me out about FIBAE 1 is that it places things so accurate in space, that it becomes hard to fault, even with flat bass which does roll off. It places better than etymotic and fitear and feels less pressurized in ear canal. i think it is due to long horn. hmmmm.....hmmmmm.....it feels weird actually, in a great way.

second thing is
on the scary crossover

can we add a ED driver or RAB driver, because their was a specific warmth ever so slightly creeping in mids, which some may like, but not me. and this is warmth and not bloat or bleed. This creation is what i enjoyed/scared the most

cannot play doom and wolfestien anymore on both of these

one creeps me with bass and effects

other creeps me with placement of sound

both failed in making me enjoying the game......lol

1/10 to both
(This is a joke ok, i already gave my review....it is actually 9/10 to FIBAE and 9.5/10 to scary as i was able to enjoy music more)




*instead of increasing my post count for no reason, i edited it after testing*


----------



## piotrus-g

dhruvmeena96 said:


> can we add zobel circuit and theile network to BA


Well the beauty of this hobby is that you can do whatever the hell you want  you can add those networks and see how they are working for you and decide if you want to continue using them. 


dhruvmeena96 said:


> 3. @piotrus-g is ED26821 technically better than those two in reproduction of spectrum or my ears are fooling me


ED-26821 looks like ED-29689 with no center tap and vent instead. It will definitely be better full range driver. However if you need a low impedance tweeter 29689 would be better choice.

Thanks for review man!


----------



## dhruvmeena96

piotrus-g said:


> Well the beauty of this hobby is that you can do whatever the hell you want  you can add those networks and see how they are working for you and decide if you want to continue using them.
> 
> ED-26821 looks like ED-29689 with no center tap and vent instead. It will definitely be better full range driver. However if you need a low impedance tweeter 29689 would be better choice.
> 
> Thanks for review man!


i wanted to ask about thiele network(It includes a inductor)
It fixes capacitive value from driver, same as zobel circuit which flattens impedance graph on speaker
so the capacitive and and impedance graph are presented flat to graph.
theoretically, Thiele network recovers the treble which is lost due to zobel
but i read on this forum about coil getting saturated

and is knowles open on giving their driver's in detail spec like speaker driver manufacturer


----------



## piotrus-g

dhruvmeena96 said:


> and is knowles open on giving their driver's in detail spec like speaker driver manufacturer


in most of KA's datasheets especially for pro-audio drivers there's provided inductance


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jan 4, 2019)

piotrus-g said:


> in most of KA's datasheets especially for pro-audio drivers there's provided inductance


well, i need ED29689 following data

DC Resistance of the driver[ohms]
Voice coil Inductance of the driver [H]

for basic Zobel Circuit Layer 1


Second parallel layer is Resonance peak equalizaion in impedance

for that i need graph

here it goes, as per my theory
Zobel circuit has flattened the high freq impedance rise giving me an equalised R1.

the peak, mostly in bass region or mid region, called as resonance peak, has a top point which is R1+R2(Zmax).

from there we can find value of R2

Then we mark an impedance value |Z*| at a frequency f* higher than fo. As a rule we choose impedance values somewhere in the middle between R1 and |Z|max.

*R3 = [R1(R1+R2)]/R2*

we got our second circuit resistor value

We may need to zoom in a narrow frequency range around the resonance frequency. In this way we will be able to get a good estimate of fo, |Z|max, f* and |Z*|.

*x= f*/fo (Variable 1 for Q factor)
y=|Z*|/R1 (Variable 2 for Q factor)
ymax=|Z|max / R 1(Variable 3 for Q factor)
w=2 pie fo(assistive variable, i forgot the exact name)

Q= {x/(x^2)-1} * [root{ (ymax^2) - (y^2)/(y^2)-1}]

L=R2/Qw
C=Q/R2w

Lreq=(R1^2)*C
Creq=L/(R1^2)*


We need R3 then Lreq and then Creq in series attached parallel to Basic Zobel

For flat Impedance, capacitance graph plus making single BA more extended on both side of response chart and with more stability.

just making impedance curve flatter wont do
capacitance graph and peak resonance graph of single BA matters

Technically fixing the spout and Internal BA resonance with Impedance rise. This will make the BA less sensitive but from my point, it will draw less power, be always linear no matter what we do plus protect from random signal shots

Something like your Flat impedance but in dual layer

1. Flattened whole graph without getting the driver customised
2. More safe to powered burst
3. More heat division
4. Very low distortion if we dont add the component distortion, but the distortion should still remain lower compared to stock driver


now problems are
1. knowles gives scarce data for all the things i am trying to do
2. Inductor coil saturation is still an issue

@Slater

then i add small dynamat in the ending like you do bro

i mean, laser cut dynamat....lol to a BA



@piotrus-g 

after all this, i will add Edgar Mid range horn with 2mmx2mm mouth(straight) or 4mm libby horn with 3mmx3mm mouth(folded in curve, so stopping pressure is low)

Edgar midrange horn is good for fixing conventional horn resonance

Libby horn will raise 2kHZ to 5kHz by 10dB and all high freq by 5dB, but green damper will bring my mids back while retaining extra air in treble region


all these method can reduce ear strain by magnitude and driver volume would be compensated back while having all the benefits of zobel and my circuit


----------



## mattmatt

Hi @Furco, @Bassiklee,

For my previous question, here's a photo of my universal. 

I tend to sand and polish in this area due to resin overflow and when I do sand and polish, the MMCX also gets sanded down. 

Also, for spot curing, do you guys get that tacky residue? I get them even when I only adhere my sound tube to the nozzle.


----------



## Bassiklee

I use a different MMCX connector,  never had a issue.  As for the inhibition layer,  yes that will happen.  Alcohol will wipe it off.  I use resins inside the shell that don't produce that layer.  Everything on the outside of my shells is one of three finish lacquers,  so they don't get tacky if fully cured.  I'm still looking for the perfect lacquer.  I like the Egger,  because it doesn't yellow.  I like the Dreve Lak3, because it flows better.  I've tried the Pro3Dure lacquer as well.  It behaves more like Lak3, including the yellowing.  Really only an issue on clear shells.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

I need someone who has a universal design in .stl format

I am tired using aliexpress semi universal shellz plus they come for 40$ and feel very cheap.

It would be better for me to print one for myself

But dont know how to design according to ears.


----------



## mattmatt

Bassiklee said:


> I use a different MMCX connector,  never had a issue.  As for the inhibition layer,  yes that will happen.  Alcohol will wipe it off.  I use resins inside the shell that don't produce that layer.  Everything on the outside of my shells is one of three finish lacquers,  so they don't get tacky if fully cured.  I'm still looking for the perfect lacquer.  I like the Egger,  because it doesn't yellow.  I like the Dreve Lak3, because it flows better.  I've tried the Pro3Dure lacquer as well.  It behaves more like Lak3, including the yellowing.  Really only an issue on clear shells.



May I see the MMCX you use? Oh, any recommendations for resins that has no inhibitation? I have problems sourcing lacquers here


----------



## mattmatt

dhruvmeena96 said:


> I need someone who has a universal design in .stl format
> 
> I am tired using aliexpress semi universal shellz plus they come for 40$ and feel very cheap.
> 
> ...



Why not use other universal shells as your master then cast one yourself?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

mattmatt said:


> Why not use other universal shells as your master then cast one yourself?




Shell
these are the shell i am using bro
so can you tell me how to work on this. I mean to say, i dont know how to edit 3D files like .STL(PITA)
how do i scan these on budget, well i was in financial crisis previous year and i am still recovering so cannot buy a 3D scanner for time being

Thanks for the reply though


----------



## Bassiklee (Jan 5, 2019)

These are what I use. As far as resins with no inhibition layer, look at stuff marketed at arts&crafts, or fishing/surfing. Again,  I don't use these on the outside,  so skin contact isn't an issue.


I'm not sure why it's not letting me add a picture.  The thumbnail was there. I swear.  PM me,  and I'll send you a picture of what I use.


----------



## Bassiklee




----------



## dhruvmeena96

piotrus-g said:


> Alright here's the second one more fancy, more neutral (still quite fun! but more on the sub-bass side)
> It's 4 way design for those who don't fear soldering since it's more complicated.
> 
> 
> ...



Can we replace the "CI with R3" resistor with ED29689 and keep everything same

i mean damper and R3 value
You know, i have problems with tube measurement, so i am not changing that


----------



## Choy Wei De

Do look up photogrammetry. You just need a smartphone, pc and some free software. I think a even normal consumer 3D scanner can’t capture such fine details.



dhruvmeena96 said:


> Shell
> these are the shell i am using bro
> so can you tell me how to work on this. I mean to say, i dont know how to edit 3D files like .STL(PITA)
> how do i scan these on budget, well i was in financial crisis previous year and i am still recovering so cannot buy a 3D scanner for time being
> ...


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Choy Wei De said:


> Do look up photogrammetry. You just need a smartphone, pc and some free software. I think a even normal consumer 3D scanner can’t capture such fine details.


Used scann3d....ask for money
Clicking photos, dam this is hard 

And even if the accuracy is to the point, the issue is the bottom of the shape

It produce some nasty bottom, which is hard to clean

I have to make a rotating jig and light box for 3D scanning.....

Taking to much time also

Any other way, easier than this

Or I have to stick with this


By the way, thanks a lot


----------



## Choy Wei De

I think mobile app can’t get the precision that you want.

There is this tutorial about a paid Pc/MAC software. She demonstrate scanning a rock in a upright position, then flip the rock around and scan again. She then merge the 2 sets of photo to form one seamless 3D model. I believe you can find free softwares that can do it, or somehow get your hands on that paid software.

If I’m not wrong, this YouTube channel call prusa upload a updated process for photogrammetry using a free software. Have not watch the video yet.

If you don’t want to do too many hard work. Try approach your local 3D printing and scanning community and ask them for advise or even do for you.

This last method really depends on your luck. Try Google ear impression 3D scan at your neighbourhood. You might find some businesses that actually make your ear impression for the usual price and then 3D scan them for a small fee. You can try negotiate with them to do just the 3D scanning part. You can either process your shell a bit then bring them for scanning or make a negative mold followed by a positive mold then bring it for scanning.

This topic is going quite in-depth about 3D. I only have very basic knowledge about 3D printing, scanning and modelling. Couldn’t help very much.




dhruvmeena96 said:


> Used scann3d....ask for money
> Clicking photos, dam this is hard
> 
> And even if the accuracy is to the point, the issue is the bottom of the shape
> ...


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jan 6, 2019)

rggz said:


> My first project in progress: an Etymotic style shape + single RAB-32257.
> 
> I've printed a 3D shape created by some user, the original file in here, now I'll finish sanding and paint it to try looks a bit more refined. Also, I'm just trying to figure out how is the best way to seal/filling up the armature in this cylinder, will something like that with blue tack works fine? If someone has a better idea would be helpful too!
> 
> ...


get that 3D design and do a stainless steel CNC with Stainless steel tube and circular tubing
man that will look dope

BluTack works fine by the way





by the way,

does anybody have impedance graph of any of the stated driver

Knowles ED-29689
Knowles GQ-30783
Knowles CI-22955

Hmm
i dont have measuring rig, and no multimeter in hand
plus i had 4 ED, which are already in iem, which i dont wanna take out
hmmmmm



cjxj said:


> So I went to the CANJAM convention in Denver the other weekend. Thought I might share some comments about looking at CIEMs there, with the caveat that I’m still learning and am now even more aware of how little I know. Perhaps would be of interest, especially to beginners in my same, or similar situation. Sorry about the length and rather meandering narrative.
> 
> 
> I spoke with a bunch of people, and listened to A LOT of in ear monitors from the likes of 64 Audio, JH (Jerry Harvey) Audio, Noble, Unique Melody, and quite a few others (Ultimate Ears was not there). All had most of their CIEM models there, but with universal outlets so they could be sampled with silicone/foam tips.
> ...


Periodic Audio Be....you liked it

Hmmmm...cool

But please try Dita. These set blow me away
I talked to Dita and they told me everything they did with driver and how the pressure regulate inside the chamber

Other is Sony EX1000 with spinfit CP240



















well for all new comers into this DIY
1.FURCO book pdf download

https://docs.google.com/document/ex...Os1CA:1545412179251&includes_info_params=true

(If Headfi redirect comes and take time, go to this link....it will take some time, but you will get pdf download.....Its a redirect download link)

2.Deeper Crossover Understanding

3. Notes about tubing and damper effect(I dont have one for now, go read Knowles and sonion guide)


----------



## ForceMajeure

dhruvmeena96 said:


> get that 3D design and do a stainless steel CNC with Stainless steel tube and circular tubing
> man that will look dope
> 
> BluTack works fine by the way
> ...



CI 22955 impedance







ED 29689


----------



## dhruvmeena96

ForceMajeure said:


> CI 22955 impedance
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thanks bro

i still have to take average but this helps a lot

i am trying flat the whole impedance graph with two layer circuit
I have already thrown calculation and some rough explanation earlier

difference between a BA and dynamic driver, i have understood is
both are traditional speaker in theory
dynamic driver over damping is mostly in bass region and BA is in mids and treble
except of vented BA, they can have two peaks at different area


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Shilohsjustice said:


> There are no secrets in what I like when it comes to triple drivers, give me a GK circuit all day long.
> 
> Add an SWFK to make it a 5-Driver.


well, the method of SWFK inverse with 1~1.5uF works with almost all iem

lol

the best way to increase 2 drivers to almost all the setup, except a few one out there.

well, i have recently created this one


> Alright here's the second one more fancy, more neutral (still quite fun! but more on the sub-bass side)
> It's 4 way design for those who don't fear soldering since it's more complicated.
> 
> 
> ...



well i have an ED and a SWFK lying down.

i want to increase the mids by 3dB(near 900Hz)
and increase the extension even more(Godly level is aim)

So, if i add 1uF to SWFK with 10ohm resistor in parallel, gives me 16kHz as high pass.

this way, i can raise the high treble region even more

but i am not able to get ED working in there

If add ED with same polarity as SWFK and TWFK, it gives me more mettalic treble focus and reduced bass.

if i high pass, things become sharp and V ish

if i low pass, it becomes less bassy


----------



## Ivan TT

Finally tested a suspicion that 4 x RAB-32257 in series could produce interesting results.
They do!
Major difference compared to single or double that I made previously is how powerful and rich sound is and overall dynamics of the sound.
Very sweet sounding set up and no crossovers!
White damper used to tune to my preference, coupling is made of pvc tubing.


----------



## Slater

Ivan TT said:


> Finally tested a suspicion that 4 x RAB-32257 in series could produce interesting results.
> They do!
> Major difference compared to single or double that I made previously is how powerful and rich sound is and overall dynamics of the sound.
> Very sweet sounding set up and no crossovers!
> White damper used to tune to my preference, coupling is made of pvc tubing.



Nice job.

What’s the back cover going to look like?

How did you determine the optimal tube length?


----------



## Ivan TT

Slater said:


> Nice job.
> 
> What’s the back cover going to look like?
> 
> How did you determine the optimal tube length?


Thanks!
Back cover is the same colour/material, got shells from taobao.
I cannot say I had much freedom in terms of the tubing length due to coupling/shell/nozzle sizes, but I made tubing terminate in the nossle a bit deeper and filed nozzle to make horn, as RAB does not have best HF extension. 
I’m quite surprised that volume of air at the front does not seem to produce any noticeable resonances too, go figure.


----------



## eunice

eunice said:


> I have a million questions, but the most pressing is this:
> 
> How to grind/buff/polish the shells after sanding



To answer my own question: 

This is how I finally got the resin transparent and shiney without lacquer:

1) Sand to your liking, using a fine grit

2) Use polish wax and a polish wheel to get the clear and shiny finish. Just touch the wax bar with the rotating wheel and then polish the iem. 

Dreve Polishing Compounds Polish Wax Bar
https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/cT7VumyC

24mm Polishing Buff Round Wheel 
https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/bbK3snJw


----------



## eunice

Do you have any reliability issues with the bass drivers? I built 2 Knowles GV pairs and one Bellsing 10025 5 driver. In every pair I made one of the bass drivers broke after a few days of use.

One GV bass driver simply went silent reappearing sometimes after blowing into the tube

I was sad but didn’t think it was a problem. But today one GV bass driver started
to make a snaring sound, just like a broken dynamic driver. So I switched to the Bellsing, and one of them broke after a few minutes of listening making a similar snaring sound.

Design: Two tubes, one for bass, one for highs  Very short 1mm tubing (2mm length) into 2mm ID of around 10mm length and yellow dampers at the exit. Directly wired to MMCX and Fiio lightning cable.

How often does it happen to you that a working unit breaks after a few weeks of using them?
What could be the cause of my drivers breaking, is using yellow dampers a problem? Or do I need to add a resistor in series with the drivers? Or maybe I need to be more careful in handling them?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Slater said:


> Nice job.
> 
> What’s the back cover going to look like?
> 
> How did you determine the optimal tube length?


well, it is hard to determine

but knowles and sonion did a ppt on that

Increasing lenght can change the peak frequency and strenght

i cannot remember how, i just have idea

Extreme high pass crossed swfk is closer
Mids ED are mids
Bass CI tubes are generally longer 

Longer tube does reduce high freq(shifting it unaudible high freq) and red dampers to dampen mid and treble

But it is generally tuning, that is why start from single driver, bluetacking universal shell with tube coming out, mm by mm

and start cutting it till you get perfect sound

I used cheap heat shrink to learn, and i still use to measure with cheap heatshrink(1$ for 10m, 3mm external dia and 2mm internal)

Diameter of tube has same sorta effect.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jan 12, 2019)

eunice said:


> Do you have any reliability issues with the bass drivers? I built 2 Knowles GV pairs and one Bellsing 10025 5 driver. In every pair I made one of the bass drivers broke after a few days of use.
> 
> One GV bass driver simply went silent reappearing sometimes after blowing into the tube
> 
> ...


that is solder issue on driver or you killed the crossover with high power(leaking the HODVTEC nasty 2kHz in TWFK)

is the bass still there or it is dead

if the bass is dead, then driver is crapped

if it is peak, check the crossover with multi-meter and you have to disconnect the GV crossover from driver assembly as you will get the correct value

and check, tally and crosscheck with some one on this thread

well your issue is mostly a QC issue from both bellsing and Knowles

contact them both

both have their website

and also check your body static, when doing DIY. and check the temprature of solder


Blowing in makes matter worse sometime as the diaphram is thin, and except of nominal load, if you load the driver with your blowed air

it can rupture the BA


By the way send both of them Email


----------



## eunice

Thank you


dhruvmeena96 said:


> that is solder issue on driver or you killed the crossover with high power(leaking the HODVTEC nasty 2kHz in TWFK)
> 
> is the bass still there or it is dead
> 
> ...



Thank you for your answer. One hodvtec from a GV and one Bellsing bass driver still produce sound, but it makes a snaring sound, like a numberplate on a car with a big woofer. 

One hodvtec is simply dead, that one I will desolder and check the crossover as you suggested.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

eunice said:


> Thank you
> 
> 
> Thank you for your answer. One hodvtec from a GV and one Bellsing bass driver still produce sound, but it makes a snaring sound, like a numberplate on a car with a big woofer.
> ...


hmmmmm......ok, that only gets to three problem

1.QC issue(Diaphram is hitting the surface or coil)
2.Busted Crossover(shorted)
3.Diaphragm Rupture(Should not have, this happens due to overpowering)

all the issues are serious

and debugging(i m from computer background and cannot remember exact word) would be nearly impossible.

@piotrus-g and some experienced people can help, if possible


----------



## eunice

dhruvmeena96 said:


> hmmmmm......ok, that only gets to three problem
> 
> 1.QC issue(Diaphram is hitting the surface or coil)
> 2.Busted Crossover(shorted)
> ...



Thank you, did you experience any of these issues? This happened to all of my pairs, I wonder if it could be bad luck or if I am over powering them by using yellow damper and more power.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Ivan TT said:


> Finally tested a suspicion that 4 x RAB-32257 in series could produce interesting results.
> They do!
> Major difference compared to single or double that I made previously is how powerful and rich sound is and overall dynamics of the sound.
> Very sweet sounding set up and no crossovers!
> White damper used to tune to my preference, coupling is made of pvc tubing.


why dont you go for 2 way crossover.

This will make it more better in overall distortion and dynamic reach


----------



## dhruvmeena96

eunice said:


> Thank you, did you experience any of these issues? This happened to all of my pairs, I wonder if it could be bad luck or if I am over powering them by using yellow damper and more power.


Overpowering on damper should fix it
is it vibration rumble or sharp snare

i am imagining sharp snare

if it plate rumble, then crossover is issue. 

Thats why i get single driver

bass drivers need electric attenuation
https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/tools/t-pad-attenuator-calculator/

That overpowering bass can be fixed like this

if it your driver snaring and screeching, then you destroyed driver


----------



## Ivan TT

eunice said:


> Thank you, did you experience any of these issues? This happened to all of my pairs, I wonder if it could be bad luck or if I am over powering them by using yellow damper and more power.


Did you check your source for DC?
Fries drivers, symptoms sound familiar.


----------



## Ivan TT

dhruvmeena96 said:


> why dont you go for 2 way crossover.
> 
> This will make it more better in overall distortion and dynamic reach


The point was to avoid x-over and associated issues.
Also, I use series connection, I guess I can easily parallel drivers in my setup and throw in a cap, but again: more volume of air pushed by 4 drivers working in unison (x4 times the surface) gives exactly that: reduces distortion and improves what you call “dynamic reach”.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Ivan TT said:


> Did you check your source for DC?
> Fries drivers, symptoms sound familiar.


well, this can also happen

@Slater 
http://www.hearingreview.com/2009/1...itting-hearing-aids-with-extended-bandwidths/

info with tubing


----------



## eunice

Ivan TT said:


> Did you check your source for DC?
> Fries drivers, symptoms sound familiar.


I use a Fiio lighning cable, if it has DC it would be a bummer... Will check though.
Would a resistor in series help for these cases without reducing SPL too much?


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jan 12, 2019)

Ivan TT said:


> The point was to avoid x-over and associated issues.
> Also, I use series connection, I guess I can easily parallel drivers in my setup and throw in a cap, but again: more volume of air pushed by 4 drivers working in unison (x4 times the surface) gives exactly that: reduces distortion and improves what you call “dynamic reach”.


Series, hmmmm nice

best way to increase driver, dB in safe manner plus get the same impedance graph(More impedance only) as one driver...



hmm smart bro


----------



## dhruvmeena96

eunice said:


> I use a Fiio lighning cable, if it has DC it would be a bummer... Will check though.
> Would a resistor in series help for these cases without reducing SPL too much?


crap just got real bro, never use lighting cables,

you overpowered your driver or introduce a DC peak.

BA are more sophisticated than dynamic


----------



## Ivan TT

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Series, hmmmm nice
> 
> best way to increase driver, dB in safe manner plus get the same impedance as one driver...
> 
> hmm smart bro


Cheers, bro 

Typically multi-driver IEMs parallel drivers, adding x-over and matching output using resistors in series, but I thought it’s a bit of compromise (quite a bit of compromise, actually - not to mention all the damping issues and needing Lo-z high current source). Andros have no crossover, got me thinking too.

In guitar amps world it’s not uncommon to use 4 12” speakers for higher SPL/better bass too, so why not to try same with BA’s?

On a separate note I now realise that I used Hemholtz resonator and Libby horn in my project, who would have thought?


----------



## IvanNOON

Ivan TT said:


> Cheers, bro
> 
> Typically multi-driver IEMs parallel drivers, adding x-over and matching output using resistors in series, but I thought it’s a bit of compromise (quite a bit of compromise, actually - not to mention all the damping issues and needing Lo-z high current source). Andros have no crossover, got me thinking too.
> 
> ...



Andromeda has no crossover? Where did you get that from?


----------



## Ivan TT

Slater said:


> What’s the back cover going to look like?


Finished set:


----------



## Ivan TT

IvanNOON said:


> Andromeda has no crossover? Where did you get that from?


Don’t remember, read somewhere, most likely reddit and there’s some photos of internals, I may be wrong though.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jan 12, 2019)

Ivan TT said:


> Cheers, bro
> 
> Typically multi-driver IEMs parallel drivers, adding x-over and matching output using resistors in series, but I thought it’s a bit of compromise (quite a bit of compromise, actually - not to mention all the damping issues and needing Lo-z high current source). Andros have no crossover, got me thinking too.
> 
> ...


Andromeda has a crossover

plus i can tell you something amazing for your project

it needs a circuit building

connect

(cap and resistor in series)
1.1460055096418733uF capacitor ~/= (1.1uF~1uF) capacitor
165ohm resistor

parallel to your quad driver setup like this(imagine your quad driver equivalent to single speaker)

and place your damper a little near to BA rather than the tip


I dont know graph other wise i would have given a lot more circuit(no crossovers) to fix the BA nasty mid phase shift

Dynamic phase shift is in bass, which is tolerable but makes bass slow and muddy compare to BA. But BA suffer from mid shift which is hard to fix. Most people are not able to detect it

If i just had the impedance graph of your design

This circuit is made by taking 500Hz in mind

RAB 32257 @ 500Hz = 33ohm +/-15%
RAB 32257 @ 500Hz = 7.8mH

on series, these will multiply by 4

and i have calculated the value for you

this will dampen the treble a bit, but add smoothness and will protect the source and iem


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Ivan TT said:


> Cheers, bro
> 
> Typically multi-driver IEMs parallel drivers, adding x-over and matching output using resistors in series, but I thought it’s a bit of compromise (quite a bit of compromise, actually - not to mention all the damping issues and needing Lo-z high current source). Andros have no crossover, got me thinking too.
> 
> ...


that aint helmholtz resonator and libby horn

libby horn is long and uniformly stepped(Older one was not, but still)
helmholtz resonator is of two type

straight line and adjacent
straight line, is like chamber expansion where speaker sound inlet is smaller than cavity, but bigger than tube discharge toward mic or eardrum

adjacent ls like bottle example

both do same

adjacent helmholtz resonator
formula

f=(v/2π)*√(A/VL)

where

v= speed of sound
A=Opening area of neck
V=volume of cavity
L= lenght of neck


----------



## Ivan TT (Jan 12, 2019)

Thanks, I plan to breadboard Zobel networks when I have a bit more time and inspiration, since impedance and inductance are not precisely known and vary a lot I suspect this will require a bit of experimentation, hence breadboarding.

But to be perfectly honest I am having a bit of a honeymoon with this design, too busy re-listening same old stuff anew


----------



## Ivan TT (Jan 12, 2019)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> that aint helmholtz resonator and libby horn


To clarify, I was referring to 4 RABs that fire into a cavity formed by PVC tubing, 4mm I think, so there’s front air volume, Then it is coupled into #13 tubing - that would be neck.

Tubing terminates half-way into plastic nozzle, which is filed as a horn over about 3mm, using spinfits I’m getting WBFK comparable amount of HF extension.

Ideally these should be properly calculated using proper formulae but I like the sound the way it is, maybe next time.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Ivan TT said:


> To clarify, I was referring to 4 RABs that fire into a cavity formed by PVC tubing, 4mm I think, so there’s front air volume, Then it is coupled into #13 tubing - that would be neck.
> 
> Tubing terminates half-way into plastic nozzle, which is filed as a horn over about 3mm, using spinfits I’m getting WBFK comparable amount of HF extension.
> 
> Ideally these should be properly calculated using proper formulae but I like the sound the way it is, maybe next time.


you can say, it is a sort of Helmholtz resonator, but it will majorly work for fixing peaks at HF, rather than acting like a resonator...

Hmmm, how can i explain

it is like CAMPFIRE TAEC tech. You should have made the tubing straight into a cavity first then leading to nozzle, then it would have been a Helmholtz resonator. where you would have calculated the volume, tubing nozzle etc, to tune it. Your design make the treble smoother and sound a little diffuse and more enjoyable rather than focused and sharp

i guess you are enjoying the space your iem is producing right now......

Horn Diameter and tubing length also matter.

You made a sound a little more smoother on HF, then you are boosting it with a horn

And by the way, i did all the work for you on zobel circuit
i calculated the resistor and Cap for you above.(i seriously did, that is exact according to papers by knowles)


----------



## Ivan TT

dhruvmeena96 said:


> it is like CAMPFIRE TAEC tech.


Yup, that was the inspiration, notice drivers firing into a chamber directly (no tubing) with single tubing on the other side, as described above:


----------



## dhruvmeena96

best driver is 
*RAF-32873*

ask why?




See the paper knowles attached with it. Mind blown

From driver reliability in Newton force test noted on exact
Imepdance graph given with so much detail

real diy driver is this

We can engineer it to max plus it is so much more abuse taker

it is like 2JZ GTE engine in Toyota Supra

Extreme in build, cheap in price and attach a turbo for 1000HP and it will take it easily
15N of force handling limit on body, plus so much exact detail and tighter tolerance

15$ for pair and frequency graph looks better than RAB counterpart

Well this crazy


----------



## Xymordos

Ivan TT said:


> Yup, that was the inspiration, notice drivers firing into a chamber directly (no tubing) with single tubing on the other side, as described above:



I did something like that with one of my designs and ended up with a design that had great separation and lots of air. Probably pure coincidence but loved the results.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jan 12, 2019)

Ivan TT said:


> Yup, that was the inspiration, notice drivers firing into a chamber directly (no tubing) with single tubing on the other side, as described above:


i kinda got into the design of yours

kinda cool and out of the box thinking

i got my friend simulate your design on virtual environment


well what is the length of the tube, the standard 13 tube
I can help you refine it, without changing anything

it is the first attempt i have seen(going in series)

and i think, well it is way to hard to drive though, but fixes a lot of thing

1. peaky treble fix(Cavity and Series + damper).
2. Bass control(This will be too tight, super sharp bass on timing)
3. Overall speed and timing of hit
4. Distortion fix
5. Impedance graph will remain structurally same as single driver

but issues are from what he is telling me

1. due to high resistance.

88ohm DC resistance
132ohm 500 Hz nominal impedance
198ohm on 1kHz
250ohm on 3kHz


the issue is 250ohm at 3kHz. This thing may also create the feeling of of space, but extreme vocally sound may not get texture of crispiness and rasp. 3kHz have vocal harmonic details.
you may need to fix this area

but from what i see, that your tubing is small, it may not be an issue, but still asking the length of tubing.


and the space is correct for 4mm

but from your design i can see a verysmall fault

the 4mm is from tip of body rather than spout of BA. plus seal the surrounding body near the sprout so that it becomes flat surface with earlier spout area becoming holes. then make a space of 4mm(3.9mm but doesnt matter).

This will fix some internal hazzyness.

and shift the 660ohm damper in between of the tube.

because the cavity is already reducing the pneumatic pressure from BA, which then flows in tube, the 660ohm damper in end becomes too restrictive, which may kill some higher harmonic detail. moving it inside, may get some effect of pneumatic pressure penetration on damper, which make the air flow better and some extreme HF can raise.



experiment with zobel , because BA skyrocket in impedance at HF production and you series it, so the resistance would be very high, and you may wanna fix that

all my tips, may get the naunces of HF right

If you fix the HF extension, this can be a killer setup, because you have already achieved perfect mids and bass.

just slightly


plus

Since the two driver's electrical impedances and back EMFs are identical, the back EMF of one driver is just right to cancel the back EMF from the other and vice versa. This keeps the voltage over each of the drivers to exactly half the total driving voltage. This would not have been the case with a series resistor or if you were to put the hand on one of the drivers to keep the cone at standstill.
But I think that this way of thinking is more complicated than the simple voltage divider with two identical impedances.

So, the bottom line is; connecting identical drivers in series is OK, it does not affect Qts.

Edit: you can also see it from the equation for Qes:

Qes=2*pi*fs*Mms/Res, Res=(Bl)^2/Re

If you add a driver in series and see the two drivers as one, B and fs would stay the same, Mms would double, l would double, and Re would double. Net effect: Qes stays the same.

so, the way you placed your driver, the vents outward is also helping in weakening of stray magnetic field too

on parallel, this may not have happened



the reason is, parallel increases the Qes, which is important fundamentally, as this Q damping is second most important after Qms and we can control it.

as said earlier Qes remain same, voltage amount gets half leads to 1/4th of distortion on two driver setup. so on 4driver that is 1/16th of one RAB

this is a great feat to be proud of. plus Impedance remain same


but the amp you need now has to be poweful or you have to design a impedance equalisation and zobel circuit on parallel with longer horn. get that thing to work on 88ohms on all freq

it can make the iem sound like a TOTL headphone, if done right

that is 4driver zero cross












so to conclude

your project has a lot of potential


----------



## dhruvmeena96

https://earphonediylabs.com/index.p...rivers-flagship-product-of-earphone-diy-labs/

amazing driver

i have one.

this is faster than BA. I mean to say, way way faster in bass department
slightly slower than SWFK, but this beast extend to 48kHz

and the measurement by them is slightly different, but it does sound like shure 1840, just more focused compared to stage performance

good thing to diy with


----------



## eunice

Very nice read explaining the very basics of tuning an IEM: https://www.innerfidelity.com/content/how-balanced-armature-receiversdrivers-work


----------



## IvanNOON (Jan 13, 2019)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> best driver is
> *RAF-32873*
> 
> ask why?
> ...


AFAIK this is just RAB-32257 with different port and solder pads locations.
Doesn't seem to have ferrofluid, so it's strange for the name to have F in there.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

IvanNOON said:


> AFAIK this is just RAB-32257 with different port and solder pads locations.
> Doesn't seem to have ferrofluid, so it's strange for the name to have F in there.


It is slightly differen t in impedance curve

And Knowles did published all spec important for our convenience

I can tune it with precision compared to hit and trail.

I can smoothen out peaks without damper just because I can make a perfect circuit

Old driver didn't had that

Plus it is cheaper than RAB(way cheaper)


----------



## IvanNOON

Fair enough.

I've got a question - Is there a way to attenuate a woofer without losing subbass extention?
CI's are just too loud!


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jan 13, 2019)

IvanNOON said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> I've got a question - Is there a way to attenuate a woofer without losing subbass extention?
> CI's are just too loud!


Easy,

Add a resistor and then cross your mid range according to that

Or use a resistor attenuation circuit
Two in series, one in parallel

https://www.everythingrf.com/rf-calculators/attenuator-calculator


Simple


Well, if CI is loud for you, HODVTEC would be a nightmare then...


----------



## IvanNOON

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Easy,
> 
> Add a resistor and then cross your mid range according to that
> 
> ...



Just adding a resistor and crossing over kills sub-bass extention. Is that an impedence problem? Does that attenuation circuit fix that?

And yeah, HODVTEC is... oof.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

IvanNOON said:


> Just adding a resistor and crossing over kills sub-bass extention. Is that an impedence problem? Does that attenuation circuit fix that?
> 
> And yeah, HODVTEC is... oof.


attenuation circuit lowers overall dB rather than changing the property of circuit

you will lose some, but the loss will be uniform overall.

if you need subBass extension(true level)

you can do 


only CI part. It will provide you godly subBAsssssssssss

not even Sony XB90EX can reach the level of subbass extension this can

and swap the capacitor/dual resistor CI with HODVTEC. and SUBBASS goes heart rumbling

the First CI with Cap and resistor is crossed at 72.346Hz and is damped hard. Second CI is damped even harder but play full range

TWFK with full range FK is reversed so it cancel some mid bleed issues and treble FK is extreme high pass

if you go this way of tuning, you have reverse the polarity of Mid driver and cross it properly in conjunction to Dual CI


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jan 15, 2019)

@piotrus-g Well

In Fibae Black, after seeing the images more carefully

you didnt use a traditional helmholtz resonator but a Sealed top Kienle Resoantor System(sort of  resonator when sealed), For that bass boost, which you damped very specifically so that fo can be spread ou evenly instead of making a bass boost peak

well i think i am near to what you did.

damm man, if it is Kienle system, then man, you seriously did spend a lot of hours, because it is nasty to tune it(so much work, to sound naturally)

but reward is an immense soundstage(i mean seriously that thing will go bonkers on staging), Dad have a organ loaded piano(he did a diy a long time ago on some cheap wood piano) and that thing sounds grand and never ending.

He told me about the structure today, and he told me about speaker loaded organ is kienle system and when you seal the top at perfect octave, it is a tuned resonator. Well Resonator sounds less grand compared to flue organ structure, we cannot do that in iem, plus it needs some extreme paperwork and calculator.

and he told me, that he can boost specific Freq plus due to overtone can structure the bass plus boost some hefty low end on both platform 

and when i told him about your project

he saw the images too(but was not able to tell), but i showed him your frequency response and the literal size of tubing inside iem i do

he said

"That guy is crazy"

well dad took his speaker tubes in comparision


but when i calculated resonator value in actual
its is easy to get a resonance f, but it is very hard to control harmonic tone or overtone(i mean very hard)

From a knowles RAF calculation

i need 2mm tube with 20mm length closed from one side aligned perpendicular to main tube, to make it act as a spring resonance at 270Hz

but that peak goes like monster, and when i use damper it becomes either too damped or not a considerable effect while my Q remains the same instead of extending on both side

by the way i don't want to boost 270Hz, that was just experiment as i was learning 

but one thing do happens which is noticeable

low frequency, even boosted, goes a little far away perception, which gives a good amount of separation. i think after hearing this, i can tell why FIBAE Black was reviewed to be a huge stager

a guy even told me it is bigger than Andromeda(Head fi member)

Man, @piotrus-g your work turns an inspiration for me, and i don't know why i always get the itch to reverse engineer your work.

FIBAE 1

my solution:
I made some circuitry(take it as complex zobel and a notch filter) to flatten out impedance

FIBAE Black

my solution
Damm, i am so near but far away..............this is hard as ****(those are actual star and no abuse), perpendicular resonator(closed organ). Still dont know the dampers

and dont tell me, i dont wanna cheat...my hardwork can lead me to some new direction



@Ivan TT you can learn from this

1. Traditional Helmholtz resonator(Spring, can be used for specific tuning)
2. Concentric porous resonator(peak silencer)
3. Front loaded air gap resonator(TAEC, used for slightly smoother treble......EDGAR mid range horn)
4. Kienle Resonator System(Technically god of all the above, used in speaker loaded organ pipe, plus can be fused with any of the above, but it is hardest to tune)

Kienle Resonator System is actually simple in open pipe, but closing it changes the way how frequency moves. and iem need closing one, since opening the top means everything leaks in iem body


----------



## piotrus-g

After reading up on Kienle Resoantor System I don't think that's correct and I would still hold we are using Helmholtz
The Kienle seems to be positioned _in front of the driver _with sound outlet _perpendicularly _to the resonator _and _the speaker. In our design the speaker doesn't fire _into _the resonator. The resonator is parallel to the speaker and in theory perpendicular to the sound outlet.

The Kienle seems to be interesting idea to check out.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

piotrus-g said:


> After reading up on Kienle Resoantor System I don't think that's correct and I would still hold we are using Helmholtz
> The Kienle seems to be positioned _in front of the driver _with sound outlet _perpendicularly _to the resonator _and _the speaker. In our design the speaker doesn't fire _into _the resonator. The resonator is parallel to the speaker and in theory perpendicular to the sound outlet.
> 
> The Kienle seems to be interesting idea to check out.


So it is the adjacent Helmholtz resonator...

Makes my work simpler then

But how did you get a wide Q on bass.... I am getting a peak while other freq remain same...

Well, Helmholtz resonator can still do, overtone, but elevating whole bass region seems hard for me.

I think I have to use multiple resonator ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ but then it will come out my iem and it will become something like hearing aid.


Damm....

Well, it is all about overtones, and my dad still said that this much complex tubing to achieve respectable bass boost from single driver in such a small casing is crazy work and too much time consuming for him to do for me

He gave me some formulas on Helmholtz resonator, kienle resonator and porous resonator and told me how to make them but miniaturizing them seems is very hard till now


----------



## IvanNOON (Jan 16, 2019)

@dhruvmeena96
Tried L- and  T-pads today and they seem to work. Kinda. (probably because the values are not exact)
There is some sub loss but less than with just a resistor. General signature and dynamics of the driver are preserved, which is nice.

I'm currently experimenting with IR and RC low-pass filters.
IR seem a bit unpredictable/messy because inductors have notable resistance (14Ohms for 1mH) which needs to be accounted for.
But it could be an advantage because you can combine L-pad with 2nd order low-pass or T-pad with 3rd order low-pass in some configurations.


----------



## Slater

IvanNOON said:


> @dhruvmeena96
> Tried L- and  T-pads today and they seem to work. Kinda. (probably because the values are not exact)
> There is some sub loss but less than with just a resistor. General signature and dynamics of the driver are preserved, which is nice.
> 
> ...



I’m having good luck using a base plate of prefabulated amulite.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jan 16, 2019)

IvanNOON said:


> @dhruvmeena96
> Tried L- and  T-pads today and they seem to work. Kinda. (probably because the values are not exact)
> There is some sub loss but less than with just a resistor. General signature and dynamics of the driver are preserved, which is nice.
> 
> ...


don't use inductor until or unless you are not making a series notch filter for your driver. and inductor has to be SMD air coil

series notch filter is for fixing the EMF(Electro-motive force) resonance which creates peak in Impedance graph and phase shift at specific frequency response response

the only driver which you can work on is RAF, ED and CI(Impedance graph available)

crossover is good in RC and is better after you make the reactive load purely resistive instead impeding.

If you use coil, it will become hard to control some factors.

and it is good if you know Theile small parameters of the BA before using inductor so that you can track the change in 2nd order harmonic due to inductor.

well let me explain






*When we do a low pass*
(RC crossover)
Resistor in series and capacitor in parallel

we add Voice coil resistance due to series resistance and also increase Moving Mass of BA(But the mass of diaphragm is fixed, right.....actually it is fixed, from what i mean to say, you slow down your driver for lower freq)
*
When we do a High pass*

(RC crossover)
Capacitor in series and resistor in parallel

we first reduce the mechanical damping or electrical damping by parallel resistor, you can take it in any way(Electrical damping it is, but it is simple to calculate while taking value of mechanical damping). This make the driver have the ability to move faster and louder but can distort due to over excursion. then adding capacitor technically reduce the movement zone, which lead the driver to play loud on HF. You can say, adding capacitor in series reduce moving mass of diaphragm and resistance reduce mechanical damping


*But when you do an inductor crossover*
Things change as now you are controlling compliance ( compliance = z* 1/stiffness   ,     where z is a constant of suspension).
This means you are controlling the voice coil directly instead of frequency as RC type does.

Here you can control the level of slope with more freedom and more precisely, but it changes the driver itself, which is okay on loudspeaker because they are loud, bigger and inefficient compared to super sensitive BA.

The bigger nature of loudspeaker prevents a drastic change in sound and voice coil of a loudspeaker have a low inductance compared to 7.8mH on RAF driver with 22ohm impedance vs Mark audio alpair7  21.30uH and 5.48ohms.

plus loudspeaker do need inductor to actually show some real change in sound profile while crossover by desire of ours.

BA higher impedance also means the EMF(Motive force) and resonance lies higher in 2kHz compared to dynamic driver low frequency resonance and a very high rise in treble impedance. Higher inductance of BA show variability of BA in phase nature and inductor crossover can do some changes which might not be good


untill or unless knowles dont release Qts, Qms, Qes and other parameter, dont try using inductor

well you can, but then you have to calculate and derive the things properly too(I can help for some drivers though and can give some formula)


plus one more thing.....SMD small core inductor may be tempting but never buy for BA purpose becasue that small inductor core may saturate, again showing some bad behavior in impedance. always get an aircoil and also tape your BA with MU metal tape(dont plug tape or vents and nozzle, only body)

_*Note:*
well RC crossover can be parallel or series to any value here according to calculation in depth for perfect crossover but you can only see two inductor

1. Impedance
2. Springiness of coil or stick in BA(Compliance in parallel)

Impedance is okay

springiness needs to be stiffer and joining a series notch filter to Driver may load an inductor parallel to compliance, which may reduce the resonant frequency and rising impedance

but the cap and resistor are also that much important_


One more thing, the ideal crossover cross is smooth and symmetrical but that doesn't really  happen because the crossover component doesn't work as intended

Reason
1. We seriously don't know driver is working properly(Q factors and thiele parameters)
2. SMD component has more error than rated
3. Bigger component have more tolerance and less deviation



to be continued.....................

More complex part ahead

to cover:

_how a capacitor, Resistor and Inductor affects the signal in line. 
Impulse response
Burst Decay
CSD
Harmonics
Resonator and Formula's(I still dont get the FIBAE BLACK, so dont expect you will make a FIBAE BLACK)_



Slater said:


> I’m having good luck using a base plate of prefabulated amulite.



well.....hmmm i didnt get the joke

prefabulated amulite is fictional thing ryt(I know i destroyed/ruined the joke, but still the reference is out of my comprehension)

What lol


@piotrus-g 

well why FIBAE 1 is my favourite till now

He got the custom driver according to his spec and he horned it to make a limited band a wide band



plus BA are fullranger due to resonance at 2kHz to 3kHz and if you remove the resonance for perfect phase and linear impedance will lead to true nature
(BA are limited by nature, sealed box so small can create the impedance so high in mids compared to dynamic resonance in bass)

Dynamics are real full range because it has been perfected over the period(DITA Fealty and truth, Hifiman RE2000) or this DIY driver

The driver i linked is legendary for diy purpose and even outclass DITA or Senn IE800s driver in everything

and it is true 48kHz extension with <1.4us impulse response. Faster than any BA which are <1.6 for SWFK(Fastest)

*Note:*
_BA with flat impedance are faster. Again FIBAE 1 as example_

BA were introduced very late according history but are technically faster for smaller voice coil movement and diaphragm. But iss


----------



## Slater (Jan 16, 2019)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> well.....hmmm i didnt get the joke
> 
> prefabulated amulite is fictional thing ryt(I know i destroyed/ruined the joke, but still the reference is out of my comprehension)
> 
> What lol



Ah, it’s an engineering joke (a light hearted reference to technobabble).



Spoiler: See this hehe


----------



## IvanNOON (Jan 16, 2019)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> don't use inductor until or unless you are not making a series notch filter for your driver. and inductor has to be SMD air coil
> 
> series notch filter is for fixing the EMF(Electro-motive force) resonance which creates peak in Impedance graph and phase shift at specific frequency response response
> 
> ...



Thanks for the write-up, man! That cleared up a lot of things.
Do you have any more BA inductance figures? I wanna try Zobel sometime soon.



Slater said:


> I’m having good luck using a base plate of prefabulated amulite.



Hah, after I re-read what I wrote I got the technobabble vibe too. But I assure you, my babble actually makes sense


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jan 16, 2019)

Slater said:


> Ah, it’s an engineering joke (a light hearted reference to technobabble).
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: See this hehe



He is amazing...i know that joke

damm

but i tried writing things in simple manner as possible

thats why i didnt get the joke

lol




IvanNOON said:


> Thanks for the write-up, man! That cleared up a lot of things.
> Do you have any more BA inductance figures? I wanna try Zobel sometime soon.
> 
> 
> ...



more coming up with even more specific examples







plus multi driver is not good as the more driver and more crossover creates more feedback, changing sound structure, destroying phase etc

i have U18t tzar and i feel they tried fixing it

by 8 driver bass, 8 driver mids , TWFK with its tweeter in tia arrangement


making it three way, so less feedback and simplistic impedance curve

but i feel i can enjoy it and not mix in it

dont know why


----------



## dhruvmeena96

well, there is one more thing 

Voice coil saturation, a plague nobody can avoid

electrostatic and planar doesn't have it
dynamic and BA have it






well, you can see this diagram, Voice coil saturation happens at resonance frequency in dynamic and both in BA
one more BA design limitation

BA is technically a sealed/vented compression driver designed on telephone armature.

and the body is actually a shield body, which can make internal coil saturated, but is still better than core. This may not come when we benchmark but can effect real time usage etc 

Ferrofluid may show better sonic and chart response but makes it more susceptible to saturation of signal, thus again limiting extension on both side

so please try Zobel and series notch filter as it solves many issues like this(some hard work, but helps saturation and distortion level)

calculators are available online

if series notch filter need explaination, pm me


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jan 17, 2019)

The *Fletcher–Munson curves* are one of many sets of equal-loudness contours for the human ear, determined experimentally by Harvey Fletcher and Wilden A. Munson, and reported in a 1933 paper entitled "Loudness, its definition, measurement and calculation" in the _Journal of the Acoustical Society of America_.


the first research on the topic of how the ear hears different frequencies at different levels was conducted by Fletcher and Munson in 1933. Until recently, it was common to see the term _Fletcher–Munson_ used to refer to equal-loudness contours generally, even though a re-determination was carried out by Robinson and Dadson in 1956, which became the basis for an ISO 226 standard.

It is now better to use the generic term equal-loudness contours, of which the Fletcher-Munsons curves are now a sub-set, and especially since a 2003 survey by ISO redefined the curves in a new standard.

According to the ISO report, the Robinson–Dadson results were the odd one out, differing more from the current standard than did the Fletcher Munson curves. The report states that it is fortunate that the 40-phon Fletcher–Munson curve on which the A-weighting standard was based turns out to have been in agreement with modern determinations.

The article also comments on the large differences apparent in the low-frequency region, which remain unexplained. Possible explanations are:


The equipment used was not properly calibrated.
The criteria used for judging equal loudness at different frequencies had differed.
Subjects were not properly rested for days in advance, or were exposed to loud noise in traveling to the tests which tensed the tensor tympani and stapedius muscles controlling low-frequency mechanical coupling.
So, please follow Robinson–Dadson loudness curve for volume matching instead of Fletcher-Munson curves(many audio company still do old one,as it is easier to do)

Robinson–Dadson article stated

"The article also comments on the large differences apparent in the low-frequency region, which remain unexplained. Possible explanations are:


The equipment used was not properly calibrated.
The criteria used for judging equal loudness (which is tricky) differed.
Different races actually vary greatly in this respect (possible, and most recent determinations were by the Japanese).
Subjects were not properly rested for days in advance, or were exposed to loud noise in travelling to the tests which tensed the tensor timpani and stapedius muscles controlling low-frequency mechanical coupling.
"



so this is what we call Chi-Fi, japanese tuning or some other tuning from either extremely new company like kumitate labs, Custom art(well i think, he never thought of this but achieved it....but i can be wrong, because according to my dad, peter is crazy freak perfectionist.....lol....i am still laughing @piotrus-g )

*Note: by the way, my dad, me and my sis love FIBAE 1 and my younger brother love sony XBA z5(The grand bass)*

or from Sony in house sound


Germans still follow from mic based Fletcher-munson

well making a Robinson–Dadson is easy.

Tune your earphone loudness curve first to Fletcher-munson and then ear test it so that you get real volume attenuation instead of slight acoustic change. measure that and repeat with 10 guys with different ear shapes and eardrums. Take an average and here you have it.


by the way, it is curve for loudness and not standard curve for sound


----------



## IvanNOON

dhruvmeena96 said:


> so please try Zobel and series notch filter as it solves many issues like this(some hard work, but helps saturation and distortion level)


I only have experience with parallel notch as it is widely used in speaker building. Why do you recommend series notch?


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## dhruvmeena96 (Jan 16, 2019)

IvanNOON said:


> I only have experience with parallel notch as it is widely used in speaker building. Why do you recommend series notch?




you can see speaker diagram

How adding components effect speaker internal performance
it is easy to monitor performance of notch and acoustic change

you can do a parallel notch but check how it effect the internal circuit parameter

and for parallel notch, you really need Q factors for precise effect(am i right? you can correct me if i am wrong)

on a parallel notch, it is a series cap with resistor and inductor in parallel

which then you have to calculate inductor resistance and parallel resistor, and how to get precise value.(Reason 1)
Adding a cap in series make it an high pass, which is bad for full range(Reason 2)
parallel inductor only reduces the voice coil inductance and not the compliance directly, it may seem same effect, but you need more value of it(Reason 3)
Parallel resistor reduces the voice coil resistance directly, making it an high pass(Reason 4)

well, it is general definition according to speaker equivalent circuit




it is just for taking the calculation
it just do the same things like a Series notch filter

but series notch filter actually helps in focusing a specific peak resonance when we dont have proper data on driver

if i have all the theile parameter, i will do a parallel notch any day instead of series notch(it seams easy with parameters)






Series Notch filter









parallel notch filter






well the best part is you can swap RLC to anyplace in parallel notch filter, so i cannot determine most of the value without all given datasheet in driver

as i can be wrong on above part about parallel notch but what i know is that RLC works in tandem compared to discreet in series notch




well now i think, you can use a parallel notch filter(i think it is easier to do compared to series)

here is the calculator for parallel
http://www.carstereo.com/help/Articles.cfm?id=19

For checking of impedance on reference
http://www.mh-audio.nl/parallelnotchfilter.asp
check the impedance value change here


series(I have some other way, which is proprietary of mine for series)
http://www.carstereo.com/help/Articles.cfm?id=23

but let me tell you, you would have to do hit and trail for exact damping profile



L and C in such circuit control the Q factor(kurtosis or the area of frequency affected) whereas the R effects the damping

if we add only L and C, we can control the peak rising and falling "area" making the peak narrow or broad


see, this is the control we can have with specific circuitry

Where did i get motivation of posting this thing

i saw a guy using orthodox t notch circuit on SR driver here, on this thread and accidentally from my point of view damped a lot. 

and people adding simple resistor for damping profile, which is wrong because it control specific property and doesn't not work like we expected

If we are going single driver, we still have a lot of space for smd components which can actually help us tune a lot of thing, and even to the core of how it is producing sound

single driver has a lot of possibility, you know


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## dhruvmeena96 (Jan 17, 2019)

*Well, should i cover more circuit and the properties of it, or should i jump in structural things like resonator*

Well, i was working with back wave from vent and it can also produce some drastic effect

if i can load the back-wave in front wave with specific damping and with same phase as front nozzle, i can take the bass on amazing level. Actually up to 5Hz with no roll off on a RAF

will tell in coming stuff i am going to writing.....lol

By the way

RAF is amazing piece of driver....

In my theory and some of my calculation, it is performing better than ED and TWFK on mostly everything.

Actually better than Sonion 1723, if I am able to tune properly.

And with back loaded vent, I can attach a tube on vent pretty easily


----------



## dhruvmeena96

One more thing, before notch equalising, please add a zobel circuit first, it helps for proper calculation result


----------



## Mart.oporto

Hello friends!
I want to say hello to everyone first of all and thank you for the valuable information that every day they teach for free for the love of technology.
I'm dabbling slowly in DIY iems, but now I have to buy headphones from another brand.
I have saved $ 1000 and would like to know which CIEM model they recommend. I could stretch my budget to $ 1500 if it really deserves it.
I hope I'm not disrespecting you with this question.
I send my love from Argentina!


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## dhruvmeena96 (Jan 17, 2019)

Mart.oporto said:


> Hello friends!
> I want to say hello to everyone first of all and thank you for the valuable information that every day they teach for free for the love of technology.
> I'm dabbling slowly in DIY iems, but now I have to buy headphones from another brand.
> I have saved $ 1000 and would like to know which CIEM model they recommend. I could stretch my budget to $ 1500 if it really deserves it.
> ...


make one yourself or go chi-fi. Chinese nowadays are nailing it. get a BGVP DM6 custom in ear monitor which will save you a lot of money and will get a near flagship sound(300$ 5 driver) or Rose BR7(800$ for 7driver) or Tansio Mirai Star 7 custom on taobao(1000$ for 7 driver).

But if you really are into pure acoustic mastery, Go for FIBAE 1(My reference) or FIBAE BLACK(What people are calling the best stage, bass a single driver IEM has produced till date). If you can spend upto thousand and want a spiral ear SE5 Ultimate sorta sound, get a Warbler Audio Prelude(1000$). It is softer and less bassier but mids are actually better than spiral ears.

well if you are Stage performer, Musician or an audiophile, go for FIBAE Black. If you are in mixing, get FIBAE 1. If you are in driver count, go chi-fi(Less price for more driver). If you want pure audiophile, get a Warbler Prelude

all lies within $1000

but wait, invest and save money more, because this thread can burn your money   *Caution*
but the work really pays back, and no matter what iem you gonna buy, you will love your own creation more(Because its yours).

well more info is going to come, and subscribe(on top right) and keep yourself updated
DIY creation here help us to improve our skill, tuning. And this thread is actually one of the best threads on head-fi to learn(@bluemonkeyflyer T50RP thread, @Bill-P headphone mods and @Slater and me destroying Philips SHL3300 thread by moding the heaccckkk out of the 40$ Headphone(Well,see his work), @CoiL IEM gallery(His woodwork level is nearing Ocharaku level after the iBasso it01 wood work he did on back vent of dynamic)
This thread is even crazier but fun. You are welcome here bro @Mart.oporto . By the way, you gave us the whole country love(damm, thats big). ROFL

by the way, if you ever start making an IEM
1. @Furco compiled cookbook(amazing work)
2. Learn RC circuit crossover[/SIZE]
3. Learn Tubing and Damper from someone who can explain in more depth here. I also have problem there because those are very variable for me to understand

That all you need to know before designing an IEM on paper

all others would gladly teach you all the way through


----------



## IvanNOON

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Series Notch filter
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ah, nevermind then, I mixed the them up. (I was thinking parallel with the driver)
Series FTW


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## dhruvmeena96 (Jan 17, 2019)

IvanNOON said:


> Ah, nevermind then, I mixed the them up. (I was thinking parallel with the driver)
> Series FTW


@IvanNOON forget what i posted earlier
ok its cleared now right

both have its uses and i think parallel is easier to do for now. It will fix impedance....did an ltspice simulation and formulation is easy.

wait till knowles release detailed papers for series

Notearallel notch filter means LCR are in parallel which make them work in series but will add specific component noise

series notch filter means LCR in series which is connected in parallel


well, One more thing, chitty store on aliexpress started selling 14.3mm planar magnetic speaker
and chitty store is reliable but they named this driver electrostatic by mistake


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jan 17, 2019)

Well one more issue i have to have a point on....
inverting the polarity may fix issues here and there, but is a bad practice

Not pointing out anyone, i myself do that on multi driver setup, which are hard to tweak

because, inverting polarity

1.may change the air load from front of driver(The BA ceiling) to inside of the BA(where voice coil resides) which can create more distortion as it move back as the air behind the driver has moved to in front of driver.

*exception*: _only do with small driver like SWFK but also 2dB attenuation circuit(smaller drivers are less prone) and never do with vented driver as it can make your driver sound like the sound coming from vent_

2. Imaging occurs when a pair BA successfully "projects" an audible representation of the instruments in focus front of us as they are compression driver by nature(exception are top nozzle format, i forgot the nomenclature used by Audio company like Knowles). When a BA is wired invertly, the information becomes out of focus, and sonically disorganized. This is especially true since the other drivers in the IEM are affected. Mid-range frequencies are present in the bass and tweeter drivers. Reversed wiring causes dynamic stereo information to "collapse," making the music lose much of its impact.

*exception*:_ @piotrus-g Dual CI and TWFK 2nd iteration and its children so far(replaced my low pass 72Hz CI with HODVTEC with vent open). There, inverting polarity was eminent as the Bass dB was so high and mid range would have been destroyed(bass Bleed thick). He actually reversed TWFK so reduced output from the TWFK woofer with reverse phase cancel some high dB bass bleed but also with crossover. and then he extremely high passed the tweeter of TWFK so, it sounds infocus rather than diffused._

3. High frequencies lose their focus when a BA is inverted. This results in an "airy" treble that causes the sound stage to sound larger (yet less defined). Although some desire this, it is inaccurate in the strictest sense. That is what a pseudo air is. The ceiling or top part of BA, becomes a spring which we never calculated, which is tighter, making BA throw focus inside the chamber and then relax like vented speaker, which comes out diffused and location less. that is, well what i call is lingering noisy air. Accurate air is recording Hiss.



Advantage and Disadvantage point

4. Cancellation: undesired cancellation is bad, and i mean very bad. Desired Cancellation can lead to good result.



Sealed driver is still okay with reverse polarity, but vented driver, if not tuned properly, can sound like hollow cup. So before reverting phase in multi driver, ask and confirm or simulate the design. or try and test with ear and dont see Freq graphs. You shouldn't feel weird imaging or feel that driver is forcing to keep up(yes, human ear can sense the movement of driver, just focus after designing)

*Note* : _did with RAF and came with these points_


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Rabid86 said:


> Hello again! I have been trying to finish up the electronical notch-filter and it has worked pretty well! My problem, however, is that the high frequencies gets affected aswell.
> Here is a graph of the headphones before and after the use of the filter:
> 
> 
> ...


using a notch filter like okawa-denshi(it is a bandstop and not a notch filter, so it is puting crossover inside a single driver with low and high pass), will definitely kill the treble. Use a series or parallel notch filter using an aircoil inductor. that is more accurate in damping notches.

for above circuit, that is plain circuit with sloping effect not mentioned in calculator properly.  

you can use twin t notch filter

or a straight horn design if you are sticking with same driver


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## dhruvmeena96 (Jan 18, 2019)

simple circuit design....with important para down...

Dual driver, with less load on drivers....but I know I passed to low for WBFK.....any help is welcome(especially for tube length)

No dampers by the way....

I need wfbfk on 2kHz as it doesn't have resonance there....


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## IvanNOON (Jan 18, 2019)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> simple circuit design....with important para down...
> 
> Dual driver, with less load on drivers....but I know I passed to low for WBFK.....any help is welcome(especially for tube length)
> 
> ...


22uF is way too much. I would recommend 4.7uF-0.47uF range.
And, if I remember correctly, RAB is louder so you would need to attenuate (probably, not sure)


----------



## dhruvmeena96

IvanNOON said:


> 22uF is way too much. I would recommend 4.7uF-0.47uF range.
> And, if I remember correctly, RAB is louder so you would need to attenuate (probably, not sure)


The moment I add a series notch(read pars below)the ran will attenuate itself and zobel circuit will smoothen the treble range.

The problem is WBFK. I need to cross a WBFK so that it covers the RAB 2kHz peak and cover some good amount of treble extension...

Well I am thinking of removing WBFK now.

RAB seems good in itself.

RAB and RAF are pretty same, so now I think I am changing back to my favourite RAF with Libby horn folded to boost 2kHz.


This is my design

I need an experienced person to help me.

At what length, the reverse phase will spin totally to normal phase.


The bell wire act as low pass and the damper only pass extremely low.

I have to calculate the resonator tube, the series resonator have been designed for both side..


----------



## dhruvmeena96

The issue is, how I am gonna fit that driver.
The back tube is damped, because I dont want messed up air pressure in front. I need pure LF from back end to reinforce front end, just to extend low end. Second, the tiny hole in LF back resonator reduces ear pnematic pressure inside the ear plus leaks the HF inside ear canal.

Front Resonator is simple pre peak damping, as folded horn induces peaks. It acts as throat horn. The tube coming out from throat resonator is Helmholtz resonator with straight length (expanding cavity less). I have to tune it for specific low end boost.

All low end boost is done in sub bass region. I need pure sub bass. Below 50Hz.

I want to reach pure planar magnetic audeze LCD4 style bass from BA


----------



## IvanNOON

dhruvmeena96 said:


> This is my design
> 
> I need an experienced person to help me.
> 
> ...



That's quite an undertaking. 
My advice would be to test everything step-by-step. 
Start with just front volume into a straight tube, tune it properly. Then add horn, tune it. Then the helmholz, etc.

BA tuning is very unpredictable, so starting with the least amount of variables as possible helps a lot in figuring out their behaviour.


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## dhruvmeena96 (Jan 18, 2019)

IvanNOON said:


> That's quite an undertaking.
> My advice would be to test everything step-by-step.
> Start with just front volume into a straight tube, tune it properly. Then add horn, tune it. Then the helmholz, etc.
> 
> BA tuning is very unpredictable, so starting with the least amount of variables as possible helps a lot in figuring out their behaviour.


Well I will take your suggestion....
BA are crazy to tune.

But if I am able to do this, then it would be a breakthrough.

I have done zobel, perfect notch(no treble kill), TAEC style resonator and Libby horn(4mm wide continuous flow) in 2017

And my setup was for my old uncle as a hearing aid, with RAB and plug to play music.

He said that my setup was league above any hearing aid he has tried. He can listen to ambience of nature, what he told me.

The problem was blackness. The convertor, Bluetooth may be inferior but I think my design may be increasing the HF way to much.

Now I will try that in IEM. I have to perfect dual chamber resonator, back wave reinforcement and parallel/adjacent Helmholtz tubing.


----------



## IvanNOON

Good luck, man. Here's something that might be helpful:

RAB fits perfectly into 2.5mm ID tubing. Might work for the front resonator.


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## dhruvmeena96 (Jan 18, 2019)

IvanNOON said:


> Good luck, man. Here's something that might be helpful:
> 
> RAB fits perfectly into 2.5mm ID tubing. Might work for the front resonator.


Yup, but make sure to get sweet spot in resonator length.

That is what i call reverse horn effect.

*Note*:If you turn this design other way round, it will increase the peaks.
This way, we damp the peaking effect in simple.
Then designing a horn to stably and linearly boost treble..

Yes it will work as Series Resonator or simply TAEC. Add a zobel and you will get a godly level smooth treble. So smooth that it can intoxicate you. But don't expect extension since these methods only damps. No need to add a damper, if you get zobel and series resonator right

Dampers are quick fix and has a lot of drawbacks for imaging. Plus using single driver, the dampers deteriorate the acoustic info by diffusing and damping it. 

Campfire Andromeda has no damper on TAEC. That's the secret for Andromeda huge stage(bigger than spiral ear se5 u).

Zobel will just shape the treble for better and fix high freq phases.

Can add any of the notch filter to peak down BA impedi g resonance.(always do calculation from impedance graphs).

Perfect mids.


----------



## IvanNOON

Broke my first TWFK today.
Turns out TWFK-30017 is a combo of FK-30018 and WBFK-30019.
Who knows, maybe this will be helpful to someone.


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## dhruvmeena96 (Jan 19, 2019)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> simple circuit design....with important para down...
> 
> Dual driver, with less load on drivers....but I know I passed to low for WBFK.....any help is welcome(especially for tube length)
> 
> ...


That is 2.2uF now.

no it is 0.47uF.. thats right

RAB cahnged to RAF. RAF has more bass


----------



## Lucas Taboada

Hello everyone, I'm making a set of CIEMs for my brother. It's the first time I'm doing for someone else, so I can't insert the impressions in my ear to see if they fit are good 

After cutting and sanding the impressions it seems that the canal got a little short comparing with mine. I've duplicated the impression with the same material before cutting and sanding, so I still have the original.

Here are some pictures of the original impression with the one that I've worked, can anyone point to me if I've cut too much the canal and if the direction of the cut is right?


----------



## eunice

I don’t have too much experience, but I think you did good. The inner part of the canal is not that important for sound in my experience. You just have to make sure the holes do not touch the canal, other than that the influence on the sound seems minimal at best. 

How did you do the copies of the impressions, did you use agar for the negatives?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

if somebody is working with RAF-32873

*Zobel circuit*

C=10.31 uF
R=27.5 ohms

*Series Notch*

C=12 uF
L=0.3mH(Make sure that inductor are resistive, so reduce resistor value in accord of inductor)
R > 22 ohm (increment by 1 mOhm till you get the damping effect, or can stick with this)



*Parallel notch*(still not recommended, ruins the sound profiling)

C=150.15 uF(in series with driver)
R=2.65 ohm(parallel)
L=3.75 mH(Parallel, calculation required so 2.65 ohm is maintained in parallel, to tough)

*Twin T notch*(Not recommended, to powerful in damping criteria)
*Band Stop*(Bad and not really good for distortion figures, and is hard to control in BA behavior)

Front expansion


IvanNOON said:


> Good luck, man. Here's something that might be helpful:
> 
> RAB fits perfectly into 2.5mm ID tubing. Might work for the front resonator.



courtesy of @IvanNOON 





2.5mm tube in 4mm length(resonator)
1.5mm tube in remaining length or a folded Libby horn 3mm(Recommended, for High res sound)

If not using horn, just the tube, use a SWFK or WBFK to boost treble area
*
SWFK Zobel*(Just forget about this)

C=126uF(LoL)
R=7.8ohm

No dampers required(don't use one, not recommended)


----------



## Lucas Taboada

eunice said:


> I don’t have too much experience, but I think you did good. The inner part of the canal is not that important for sound in my experience. You just have to make sure the holes do not touch the canal, other than that the influence on the sound seems minimal at best.
> 
> How did you do the copies of the impressions, did you use agar for the negatives?



I'm more worried about the fit and isolation, if I've cut too much it will not fit right and have a good isolation I believe.

I have used the same material from the impressions, Dreve Otoform to make the negative, then filling and making the positive. But it is a pain in the ass to make the negative, almost always I get some bubbles or places not filled right because of the consistency of the material I believe. Next time I will try some agar to see how it goes.

Heres a picture:


----------



## eunice

Lucas Taboada said:


> I'm more worried about the fit and isolation, if I've cut too much it will not fit right and have a good isolation I believe.



Isolation and fit is mostly from the area around the first bend and a little more outside. In my experience you can remove quite a lot material beyond the first bend without affecting fit or isolation at all.
You do change the volume and affect sound, but it’s less than I would have thought.


----------



## ForceMajeure

dhruvmeena96 said:


> if somebody is working with RAF-32873
> 
> *Zobel circuit*
> 
> ...



finding capacitors with those values is impossible haha.

I love your enthusiasm although it takes me awhile to read through your posts every time since they are kinda hard to follow but they are very interesting nonetheless 

anyway you asked earlier what would be the best way to start implementing the things you mentioned and my advice would be to do things step by step and play around with each step. don't rush and try to implement the next upgrade.
I have learned more along the way trying things than theorizing. trial and error is key and let yourself flow with mistakes. most breakthroughs happen doing things by mistake. balanced armature and multi balanced systems can be unpredictable especially when you mix different drivers


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jan 21, 2019)

ForceMajeure said:


> finding capacitors with those values is impossible haha.
> 
> I love your enthusiasm although it takes me awhile to read through your posts every time since they are kinda hard to follow but they are very interesting nonetheless
> 
> ...


Well you can take nearby values. Those BoM is available on mouser.

Thanks bro....

SWFK is impossible for the work of zobel

And you can take nearby value for caps


----------



## mattmatt

Hey guys, been playing around with dreve lack 3. any idea how to avoid lumps and bubbles? I use a slow RPM motor for about 10 mins then start cure while still rotating. 

The shine of the lacquer is outstanding if will be done properly tho.


----------



## ForceMajeure (Jan 22, 2019)

mattmatt said:


> Hey guys, been playing around with dreve lack 3. any idea how to avoid lumps and bubbles? I use a slow RPM motor for about 10 mins then start cure while still rotating.
> 
> The shine of the lacquer is outstanding if will be done properly tho.



bubbles and lumps happen during application. in rare cases they can form during curing, if it's the case it means that there probably was too much lacquer applied in a certain area that lead it to cure unevenly but it's more rare.

The most important advice is to lacquer during daylight in rather bright place. those small bubbles and lumps are extremely difficult to catch and often missed unless you examine the iem from all angles.
if you lacquer with artificial light you'll always end up missing some and won't be able to correct it in time.

a key point is to find most of the imperfections and try to correct them fast before the lacquer starts  spreading evenly (it has an auto leveling agent). after a a few minutes you will probably not be able to correct an area with gentle strokes since you'll end up adding too much lacquer trying to nuke a certain bubble.

usually you can pop out bubbles by just touching them with the brush or try to transfer it to the brush somehow. sometimes a gentle stroke will do the trick but others it won't work. that's when things get tricky...

at a certain stage,  if you are not satisfied,  it's better to just wipe off and clean with alcohol everything and start fresh than trying to rectify.


the best way to avoid bubbles and unevenness in the first place is to dump the brush in lacquer every 2 strokes on avg even less sometimes.
try to NOT press the brush against the nozzle of the bottle TOO much to remove the excess lacquer when you dip it in, since this will create small bubbles that will be transferred with your strokes.

do not skimp on lacquer. it's expensive but there is no way around if you want good results. and again do this in daylight.


----------



## eunice

Thank you so much for explaining how to lacquer properly, I will have to try. 

I have up on Lack entirely, if you buy the Dreve polishing wax and polishing wheel you will get a very shiny surface without any lacquer at all. For my capabilities that worked much better than lacquer.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jan 22, 2019)

ForceMajeure said:


> bubbles and lumps happen during application. in rare cases they can form during curing, if it's the case it means that there probably was too much lacquer applied in a certain area that lead it to cure unevenly but it's more rare.
> 
> The most important advice is to lacquer during daylight in rather bright place. those small bubbles and lumps are extremely difficult to catch and often missed unless you examine the iem from all angles.
> if you lacquer with artificial light you'll always end up missing some and won't be able to correct it in time.
> ...



Thats why i buy semi-universal shell from aliexpress
i have always failed in making custom mould, and India is damn expensive for getting earmoulds done.
even musicians here dont care about CIEM for stage performance, they wear Senn HD380 sometimes for stage performance

AR Rahman wore Beyerdynamic DT770(He is legend music maker and singer)



we have only one company here in india which was recently started, named Tymphones IEMS, and i think their design are pretty simple internally but are damm to expensive even if i compare to international brands. They are doing 3D in ear scan which seems quicker than UE. Another is Starkey but their major focus is hearing aids and make CIEM if somebody demands specially

i Had warbler prelude, and don't know why, i got the shell done 3 times, but the CIEM's induces pains inside my ear. So my trust from CIEM is gone for the time being. My warbler was gifted to my brother and it fit better to him. (It was still one of the best sounding pair)

One of my friend, who is a vocalist told me that, it doesn't suit Indian ears that much. Indians don't like stiff object inside their ear. You may find people sleeping with earplugs but will never find a indian sleeping with earplugs

(I know it is out of topic)

But can you me suggest something, so that i can enjoy a CIEM without pain
Well i havent tried silicone shell till now, but getting it re-shelled is expensive


----------



## playpunk

Hey guys:

I just finished my first set of DIY CIEM’s. This project tried my patience in many ways. I also managed to screw up the mmcx cable I ordered so I could only listen for a minute while holding the cable end to the IEM. 

Here’s what I learned:

First:the impression kit from Earphones.com is worthless. The one previously recommended. The set up time on the impression material is too short to get a deep enough impression for a CIEM. The Westone single use impression making materials (pink stuff) are way way better. 

Second: trial and error is the name of the game. I made several sets of impressions before I got a good set. I made maybe 8 sets of shells before I got a decent set, and made every different type of error, too thick, too thin, holes, lumps, etc. after I got a decent set of shells I screwed up drilling and working the shells a couple times, too. Diamond burrs were a lifesaver.

Third: the prices charged by the pros are extremely reasonable and a good investment. I got a bug up my butt to do this myself, but it makes no sense. It is kind of satisfying to be finished but there was plenty of frustration along the way.

A couple of bad pictures:


----------



## Shilohsjustice

eunice said:


> Thank you so much for explaining how to lacquer properly, I will have to try.
> 
> I have up on Lack entirely, if you buy the Dreve polishing wax and polishing wheel you will get a very shiny surface without any lacquer at all. For my capabilities that worked much better than lacquer.




You can not polish the lak, also using a rotator will help with the lak finish. Basically put a coat of lak on let it spin for about 2min then touch up the areas that have bubbles and put back on the rotator. Slow down on the process, sometimes you we can be quick to get it cured out of excitement, it’s ok to slow down on the process a bit.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jan 22, 2019)

playpunk said:


> Hey guys:
> 
> I just finished my first set of DIY CIEM’s. This project tried my patience in many ways. I also managed to screw up the mmcx cable I ordered so I could only listen for a minute while holding the cable end to the IEM.
> 
> ...



The pictures are not loading bro



By the way, does anybody know, how to make a BA behave like Dynamic driver. I mean the mellow sound plus a pretty nice Decay.

I mean to ask, is it possible on BA. BA are very fast, i mean an impulse of <1.5ms is damn fast, but this behavior is static and uniform in BA driver whereas dynamic impulse is always an average of frequency points, which can mean that it can be slower(Decayish) on some parts and faster on some, averaged as impulse.

i want BA to get a little loose on sub bass side and show beautiful decay.

i am thinking of creating a BA all version of the legendary Sony MDR 7550


----------



## vladstef

dhruvmeena96 said:


> The pictures are not loading bro
> 
> 
> 
> ...



RAF driver without black mesh on the back (careful when removing, the small hole on the back behind the mesh i so small that once something gets in there, you are never getting it out). Add a bit of resistance, lets say 20-30 ohms and pair it with a longer smaller tube, 1ID for example, 20mm long. To my ears, this sounds slower than an average modern dynamic driver, maybe not objectively slower but surprisingly sluggish. Obviously, this can only be done in combination with something else for mids/treble.

Also, this is not something that I'd recommend. If you want slower bass go for dynamic driver woofer. If you are careful enough, it will pair up nicely with other BAs for a hybrid design.


----------



## mattmatt

Shilohsjustice said:


> You can not polish the lak, also using a rotator will help with the lak finish. Basically put a coat of lak on let it spin for about 2min then touch up the areas that have bubbles and put back on the rotator. Slow down on the process, sometimes you we can be quick to get it cured out of excitement, it’s ok to slow down on the process a bit.


I've rotated it for 10 mins already but still have these lumps


----------



## mattmatt (Jan 22, 2019)

ForceMajeure said:


> bubbles and lumps happen during application. in rare cases they can form during curing, if it's the case it means that there probably was too much lacquer applied in a certain area that lead it to cure unevenly but it's more rare.
> 
> The most important advice is to lacquer during daylight in rather bright place. those small bubbles and lumps are extremely difficult to catch and often missed unless you examine the iem from all angles.
> if you lacquer with artificial light you'll always end up missing some and won't be able to correct it in time.
> ...



I think I was applying too much lacquer because when i try to correct the parts with imperfections, the lacquer is already sticky and have lumps on the side of the brush strokes.

It's not just expensive, it's almost impossible to have it shipped here in Philippines.


----------



## Slater

Not sure if this method would work for you guys, but when I do resin casting projects, I remove bubbles with a blowtorch.

Now, before anyone freaks out, you literally pass the torch over the material for 0.001 seconds. You can pass the torch over your bare hand in that short amount of time and not even feel it.

This isn't my video, but this shows the method:



Spoiler: Removing bubbles with torch








You can also do a similar thing with a heat gun. Again, it only takes a fraction of a second - nowhere near long enough to do any damage to an IEM driver.

You can see the heat gun method here (again, not my video):



Spoiler: Removing bubbles with heat gun


----------



## Xymordos

dhruvmeena96 said:


> The pictures are not loading bro
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I use a bass driver and a "delayed" bass driver (one with a really long tube) to simulate the effect. But results needs a lot of trial and error.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Xymordos said:


> I use a bass driver and a "delayed" bass driver (one with a really long tube) to simulate the effect. But results needs a lot of trial and error.


Ok, now thats what i needed to know

well how long do you use(Just a general number)


----------



## Xymordos (Jan 23, 2019)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Ok, now thats what i needed to know
> 
> well how long do you use(Just a general number)



Can't help you on that haha -  you gotta test it so you get a length that doesn't screw up the midrange.

I used 80mm length x 0.5mm diameter tube, with a regular mid-bass driver with 15mm length and 1.5mm-2mm diameter last time I think.

Edit: Okay, I noted it down on a file I saved on my computer. One of the designs was this:

BK21610 - 20ohm + 33uf + 33uf (caps in parallel)  in phase (50mm L x 0.5mm D silicon, in between 10-15mm L x 2mm D Sbass chamber, 20mm L x 0.5mm D silicon)
BK21610 - 4.02ohm + 15.6uf in phase (5mm L x 1mm D Silicon) 
WBFK30095 - 1uf + 50ohm (5mm L x 1mm D Silicon) 
into 10mm L x 3mm D Carbon Fiber


----------



## IvanNOON

dhruvmeena96 said:


> The pictures are not loading bro
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Adding resistors to BA increases decay rate (mostly in lows), plus adding dampers (green and up) makes them sound less articulate/precise


----------



## PinoNL

Hey guys,

I’m new to diy iems. Therefore I want to start with some simple iems based on universal shells. 

What are good brands for dynamic drivers?


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jan 24, 2019)

The things which effects the sound stage directly

1.annular nodes/ Undampness of driver
2. THD+N(total harmonic distortion)
3. IMD(inter modulated distortion)
4. TUHD(total inharmonic distortion)
5. Saturation current(voice coil saturation)
6. Phase (phase)...


1. Dampness of driver decide how tight the driver moves at specific frequency, thus reducing the range of dip( Q factor or widht of peak), so the peak area reduces, leading some clarity of instruments. It is like taking the veil off and good transient response. Damped driver dont show annular node.




2. THD+N is harmonic distortion or fundamental distortion happening when you play your music. That distortion is fundamental with the fundamental tone. This can warm up, or colour music. Clearing it up, cleanse the background image, and gives blackness or space to it.





3. Intermodulation (IM) or intermodulation distortion (IMD) is the amplitude modulation of signals containing two or more different frequencies, caused by nonlinearities or time variance in a system. The intermodulation between frequency components will form additional components at frequencies that are not just at harmonic frequencies (integer multiples) of either, like harmonic distortion, but also at the sum and difference frequencies of the original frequencies and at sums and differences of multiples of those frequencies. The same dipping effect also happens and is also a part of IMD. IMD is real reason of the staging issue.

the stage or resolution or rendering from single driver can be lower compared to multidriver is because of dipping of frequency in burst of signal

if 20kHz and 18KHz burst together in sample tone, it will compensate the sound at 20-18= 2kHz. It will dip that 2kHz slightly within the impulse. This happens to fast to notice, so change in frequency response become unnoticebale, but the lower dB can lower the render of stage and reality. That is physical nature of diaphragm to protect from rupture. Studies are still going on

For example, slow acoustic or classical song with vocal and few instrument sounds bigger than complex passage of song, which kinda gets compressed.

in multi driver, the tweeter when bursts 20kHz and 18kHz, doesnt play 2kHz. That is played by mid range driver, so no loss of signal . this leads to bigger presentation on multi driver. That may explain the crossover theory. multi driver helps in field diffusion, distortion figure too




4. TUHD is inharmonic distortion or over distortion happening due to overtones. Like PVC tubing vs titanium etc.
Driver produce some overtone depending to its material buildup. Thats what make them different sounding. TUHD also helps user to differentiate easily between loudspeaker driver. It can make a artificial stage or completely collapse it. If you remove TUHD factor, you get very clean overtone which supplements the fundamental tone, building up the echo nature and room size. Some soundstage have no walls is due to this.




5. Saturation threshold increase and total realtime saturation reduction gives driver more freedom to not limit within a freq spectrum, and crossing with this sort of nature reduce every distortion factor immensely.




6. Phase is final and most important. Phase shifts can cancel frequency, but quick phase shifts do nothing on response. What they do, is make the human brain compensate for it, thus leading to a brain information lag. A perfect phase IEM will always construct a proper instrument position in a space called sound image. This also reduces headaches due to longer listening period and reduces ear damage.

When brain trys to compensate, it tightens the eardrum more, creating fatigue sometimes.


Hope this may help



And now finally is the tuning of IEM.

After all this, a specific tuning always sounds larger than other. All the soundstage values lie in

*Low end harmonics*
20Hz to 40Hz(depth) subbass rumble
40Hz to 70Hz(intensity or reverse z axis, inside the ear...important as you have to build the same stage inside out, for a complete experience) ear licking bass..

*Mid range harmonics*
The 2k 3k peak. Hit and trial increment or decrement, prefer damped decrement as it space out thing and relax the vocal harmonic range.
*
Ear resonance(universal design iem only)*

Ear canal length is in between 27mm to 32mm

Which gives an average of 6kHz and 11.2kHz resonance with normal earbuds.

Damp and notch these out somehow and enjoy the super stage.

Courtesy from Ocharaku (total respect)

*Air*
Lol.

From 8kHz to unknown Hz

Lower treble freq range decide grain and structure of air. Mid treble range decide the length of air. The time at which it is present after the tone is finished(gives the sound stage effect) and higher freq decides the echo of air( Sennheiser HD800)


*Decay *
This also do a lot of thing, but I am studying that factor. I will update it here


*all the experience coming doing social service for old age home(making hearing aids for them free of charge)*


I use comsol multi physics

With pipe module, and acoustic module with muffler addon


Hope my posting doesn't offend the diy community here with theory and lecture

And please correct me if my wrong at some point

I am still learning a lot(basically amps and driver)


----------



## rendyG

Is it possible to buy Sonion 1723 driver at all?


----------



## eunice

Slater said:


> Not sure if this method would work for you guys, but when I do resin casting projects, I remove bubbles with a blowtorch.
> 
> Now, before anyone freaks out, you literally pass the torch over the material for 0.001 seconds. You can pass the torch over your bare hand in that short amount of time and not even feel it.



I tried both (torch and heat gun) with Dreve Fotoplast and first it doesn’t react at all to heat and if you apply more heat then it will turn yellowish/brownish and lots of bubbles will appear. 

YMMV, but with dreve fotoplast that doesn’t seem to work at all.


----------



## Bassiklee

rendyG said:


> Is it possible to buy Sonion 1723 driver at all?



When I looked into it,  Sonion had a minimum order of fifty of whatever model you wanted.  Not outrageous,  from the viewpoint of an established company making lots of monitors.  Not something an individual or small company can easily do.


----------



## eunice

Has anyone experimented with different tube wall widths? I wonder wether a 2mm ID 3mm OD will sound different from a 2mm ID and 3.5mm OD.
I fill up the ear canal with resin, but I suspect there still could be a difference with a thicker tubing.
Any experiences?


----------



## mattmatt

Not UV resin. Just plain cold cure acrylic. 

I did not use lacquer too since i'm still in trial and error phase. Took me hours to polish this. But still have micro scratches.


----------



## Bassiklee

Just be careful what you are sticking in your ears.


----------



## Julienstanford

So I’ve been looking online and ordering BA driver but I don’t see any information on the forums for the website telling me the size of the nozzles in millimeters.   And the dampeners also have the same info for the size with an upside down T.  

Is this 2.08mm?  I don’t see info PDF say millimeters nor do I know what the upside down T is. 

I’d appreciate it if someone could give me a list of common sizes acoustical tubing I should buy and any other fittings. 




Thanks everyone.


----------



## eunice

It’s ~1mm. One common trick is to attach 1mm ID, 2mm OD tubing to the nozzle and then 2mm ID 3 or 3.5mm OD tubing to that. This second tube is where the damper fits. 

Tubing and damper greatly affect sound, so experiment. BA are much faster compared to dynamic drivers, so you wil want to introduce some resonance to the bass. Also they have peeks and valleys in the frequency response you want to reduce or increase.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jan 26, 2019)

*Knowles ED 29689*

Circuit:
Series- 3ohm Panasonic resistor + 0.08 ohm Vishay Dale Resistor = 3.08ohms
Parallel- 0.6ohm Vishay Dale resistor + 0.07ohm Vishay Dale Resistor = 0.67ohms

It has to be arranged in L pad attenuation circuit

2mm and 3mm Dia Thicker wall tubing is needed

lenght of tubing 5mm(starting from nozzle of driver)
Damper is 1500ohm(Green) placed 2mm away from driver nozzle. 

Starting with 3mm diameter tube with 2mm length, then 2mm diameter tube with 3mm length(damper inside this tube at intersection of 3mm and 2mm diameter tube intersection)

---------
            --------------------
            --------------------
---------

*Knowles ED 30761*

This driver is nozzle less
Have to use tweezers
2mm Dia Thicker wall tubing is needed

lenght of tubing 7mm(starting from driver)
Damper is 2200ohm(Red) placed 1.5mm away from driver nozzle.



Perfected Noble Savant. Less brittle treble and lower congestion.

I tried damping the ED29689 with 20 ohm like noble and saw weird treble issues. 

The ED29689 needs 16.23dB attenuation which I converted in T-pad and L-pad, and finally went for L-pad as the sound difference was not that great and I was getting better Zo Value out of L-pad(exactly 3ohms from ED)

This setup damped the 2kHz and 3kHz from savant better(2dB) and smoother.

Mid range focus was more than Savant

Soundstage was improved 

Treble was smoother in roll off in feel
Bass needs work

Zobel circuit would work but then need inductance value.



I dont know, when I tried RAF with Zobel, it not only dampens the treble, fix high rising impedance but also correct the phase shift in mids by a little and increase bass texture by huge amount.

Series notch filter, correctly implemented makes bass way faster too. I think, that brain is not focusing on peaks make us sensitive to bass plus distortion is lower too


Music used while testing this setup

Starlight Song by Hideyuki Fukasawa
Last Stardust by AiMER
Assassins creed 2, brotherhood and revelations OST
Symphony no.9


----------



## Slater (Jan 26, 2019)

Julienstanford said:


> So I’ve been looking online and ordering BA driver but I don’t see any information on the forums for the website telling me the size of the nozzles in millimeters.   And the dampeners also have the same info for the size with an upside down T.
> 
> Is this 2.08mm?  I don’t see info PDF say millimeters nor do I know what the upside down T is.
> 
> ...



What you are calling “upside down T” describes a range of measurements that reflect normal manufacturing variations/tolerances.

For example, a 14” pizza may have a size tolerance of +/- 0.5”. So some 14” pizzas could be as small as 13.5” or as big as 14.5” (or anywhere in between the min and max, like 14.2”, 13.9”, etc).

It looks like an “upside down T” because of the way it’s typically written on a blueprint or engineering document; ie a + sign located above a - sign. It can also be written like I did, with + sign followed by a slash, followed by a - sign (ie +/-).

I hope that helps.


----------



## Julienstanford

Is there any place I can find lists of different popular IEMs listing the BA drivers and dampeners needed to build them myself? 

Anything from JH would be great.  I already have the 16V2 and Roxannes 2 so I know that I like the JH sound.  Obviously something with so many drivers would be difficult for my first build.  But it’s like to build something with 4-8 drivers if the build  directions are easy to follow.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jan 26, 2019)

Julienstanford said:


> Is there any place I can find lists of different popular IEMs listing the BA drivers and dampeners needed to build them myself?
> 
> Anything from JH would be great.  I already have the 16V2 and Roxannes 2 so I know that I like the JH sound.  Obviously something with so many drivers would be difficult for my first build.  But it’s like to build something with 4-8 drivers if the build  directions are easy to follow.


Here you go

IEM BA list

Well I will suggest that you can still achieve the IEM sound with less driver. You have to know the basic stuff right

I was trying to perfect Noble savant in above config. 

Get the data, graphs, impedance and phase of the IEM you like.

Then start working on it.

Graphs can be variable but impedance and phase remains constant throughout. So by impedance and phase understanding, you will able to get the values of where the peak should be


And JH are OK(no offence) . I think you should try Spiral Ear SE5U or Sony IER Z1R.
Mind blown

More driver will only lead to more complexity.


----------



## vladstef

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Here you go
> 
> IEM BA list
> 
> ...



Thank you for this list, it shows what I suspected for some time now: You can use pretty much any BA for bass or mid range or both. The only thing that matters is how it extends into treble to see whether you need to pair it with treble driver (and then it becomes important what you pair with what). Obviously, regular problems still exist - tubing, dampers, crossovers etc.

It also shows that neither Knowles nor Sonion designed BAs with the idea of HiFi Audio until about 10 years ago when they introduced treble focused drivers. In fact, it's only these drivers that couldn't be used as full range drivers (unless you used like... yellow? dampers, which would be crazy). 

It shows one more interesting thing - there are a couple of IEMs that are using Bellsing drivers. I have Bellsing RAB driver and it is pretty much the same thing as Knowles RAF/RAB. It is similar price to RAF so there is no need for it but other Bellsing drivers are probably identical to Knowles' counterparts just way cheaper. This remains to be tested but it's a shame that everyone is ignoring Bellsing just because random budget IEMs are misusing their drivers (this goes for us, commercially I have no idea what the truth is - whether Bellsing is a standard case of stealing patents, why Knowles isn't suing them...)


----------



## dhruvmeena96

vladstef said:


> Thank you for this list, it shows what I suspected for some time now: You can use pretty much any BA for bass or mid range or both. The only thing that matters is how it extends into treble to see whether you need to pair it with treble driver (and then it becomes important what you pair with what). Obviously, regular problems still exist - tubing, dampers, crossovers etc.
> 
> It also shows that neither Knowles nor Sonion designed BAs with the idea of HiFi Audio until about 10 years ago when they introduced treble focused drivers. In fact, it's only these drivers that couldn't be used as full range drivers (unless you used like... yellow? dampers, which would be crazy).
> 
> It shows one more interesting thing - there are a couple of IEMs that are using Bellsing drivers. I have Bellsing RAB driver and it is pretty much the same thing as Knowles RAF/RAB. It is similar price to RAF so there is no need for it but other Bellsing drivers are probably identical to Knowles' counterparts just way cheaper. This remains to be tested but it's a shame that everyone is ignoring Bellsing just because random budget IEMs are misusing their drivers (this goes for us, commercially I have no idea what the truth is - whether Bellsing is a standard case of stealing patents, why Knowles isn't suing them...)


Custom art piotrus-g didn't ignore it, in fact he said that those are good driver.

Even one more guy suggested for bellsing 

I like Knowles RAF and DTEC31116 for complete paperwork compared to other drivers. I have so much more control on tuning compared to ED and conventional CI.

Bellsing doesn't do complete paperwork like VOice coil inductance, saturation, phase and impedance graphs etc

I have used bellsing CI, and its good

But for bellsing to get into that hype train

They have to improve on
1. Higher technical performance 
2. More paperwork for user

While keeping price same


----------



## mattmatt

My post did not have the photo I intended to upload  

Anyway, here are my works. 














These are made from medical grade acrylic


----------



## Slater

mattmatt said:


> My post did not have the photo I intended to upload
> 
> Anyway, here are my works.
> 
> ...



Those look really nice!

Where did you get the acrylic material?


----------



## mattmatt

Dental supply hehehehehehe 

Anyway, I still have a problem with them. They tend to get easily scratched  

Any ideas what I can do about it?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

mattmatt said:


> My post did not have the photo I intended to upload
> 
> Anyway, here are my works.
> 
> ...


Well how did you get the universal mould

You mentioned it was from KZ iem(modified). But even if I trace it back on design route, I dont see KZ influence lol. 

Actually I am in need of customised universal shell,I know the procedure of negative moulding etc, but due to some good fortune, I actually got SLA and DLP printer access, so I won't be messing everything


----------



## Bassiklee

Those look great!!  


For those who are interested in Bellsing drivers, it looks like in addition to the five driver cluster,  they now have a six.  They've used some variant of a VTEC for the LF instead of a Cl.


----------



## mattmatt

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Well how did you get the universal mould
> 
> You mentioned it was from KZ iem(modified). But even if I trace it back on design route, I dont see KZ influence lol.
> 
> Actually I am in need of customised universal shell,I know the procedure of negative moulding etc, but due to some good fortune, I actually got SLA and DLP printer access, so I won't be messing everything



Really? I just upscaled it a little bit. Here is the original modified IEM master mold I use. 

Wow you are really lucky. Design something with CAD!


----------



## eunice

Bassiklee said:


> For those who are interested in Bellsing drivers, it looks like in addition to the five driver cluster,  they now have a six.  They've used some variant of a VTEC for the LF instead of a Cl.


Thank you very much! I did not like the Bellsing 5-way very much. It sounded ok but it did not sound nearly as good as the Knowles GV. Did you already try the Bellsing 6?


----------



## Bassiklee

I have not tried the 6. I bought a pair of the 5s,  but they are still sitting in one of my project drawers.  I've been busy.  Agreed about the GV.  That's a really nice combination.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Bassiklee said:


> Those look great!!
> 
> 
> For those who are interested in Bellsing drivers, it looks like in addition to the five driver cluster,  they now have a six.  They've used some variant of a VTEC for the LF instead of a Cl.





eunice said:


> Thank you very much! I did not like the Bellsing 5-way very much. It sounded ok but it did not sound nearly as good as the Knowles GV. Did you already try the Bellsing 6?





Bassiklee said:


> I have not tried the 6. I bought a pair of the 5s,  but they are still sitting in one of my project drawers.  I've been busy.  Agreed about the GV.  That's a really nice combination.



Check the impedance graph....it looks weird as hell

We won't be able to calculate exact DC resistance average. Amp loading would be an issue. Please do check before going with combo.


----------



## Bassiklee

eunice said:


> Thank you very much! I did not like the Bellsing 5-way very much. It sounded ok but it did not sound nearly as good as the Knowles GV. Did you already try the Bellsing 6?





dhruvmeena96 said:


> Check the impedance graph....it looks weird as hell
> 
> We won't be able to calculate exact DC resistance average. Amp loading would be an issue. Please do check before going with combo.




I haven't seen an impedance graph for the Bellsing drivers.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Bassiklee said:


> I haven't seen an impedance graph for the Bellsing drivers.


On aliexpress, sound link store

You will find the 6 driver

See in more info(product) in Ali app 
Desktop will be able to see clearly


----------



## Bassiklee

I don't like rollercoasters.


----------



## cchitsun

Hi, I intend to build my first CIEM. I want to do a 3 way crossover and I have two Sonion 38AM as woofer and two Knowles 31736 as tweeter in mind, while still in the middle of choosing two Sonion 33AJ007 or 33AP007 to be mid-range. Which one do you think is relatively easier in terms of crossover and likely to yield a better outcome in terms of performance. 
Of course, if there is any other better option(s), I will appreciate your suggestions.


----------



## eunice

cchitsun said:


> Hi, I intend to build my first CIEM. I want to do a 3 way crossover and I have two Sonion 38AM as woofer and two Knowles 31736 as tweeter in mind, while still in the middle of choosing two Sonion 33AJ007 or 33AP007 to be mid-range. Which one do you think is relatively easier in terms of crossover and likely to yield a better outcome in terms of performance.
> Of course, if there is any other better option(s), I will appreciate your suggestions.



I recently started this hobby too and I can tell you, you will need a lot of practice to make a CIEM sound good. Almost everything in the build process influences the sound much more than your choice of drivers: The way you do the tubing, the fit, your choice of dampers. It's like 100 variables to get right and exactly the same for both ears.

So I would suggest you start with a simple build, if you want something that's good for an audiophile from the start and are not afraid of killing a hundred bucks worth of BAs, go for a Knowles GV (4 receiver in a package). Or use something cheaper, you will inevitably lose some drivers. I had to build like 6 or 7 pairs until I was finally (almost) happy with mine, killing *~*3 drivers in the process.

Then there is the measurement, you'll need at leas a 2cc coupler, but you should also go for an impedance "jig".

Once you get the build process and measurement equipment done, move up to one of the proven recipes. I am currently trying to build the "scary" 4 way from @piotrus-g : https://www.head-fi.org/threads/home-made-iems.430688/page-265#post-12019876 But there is also simpler recipes in this thread, from @Savant or @Shilohsjustice 

I am absolutely not saying you can't do it, but I am suggesting you focus on the build process first to not get frustrated because you are trying to optimize to many variables at once.

Happy building, and welcome to the club.


----------



## cchitsun

eunice said:


> I recently started this hobby too and I can tell you, you will need a lot of practice to make a CIEM sound good. Almost everything in the build process influences the sound much more than your choice of drivers: The way you do the tubing, the fit, your choice of dampers. It's like 100 variables to get right and exactly the same for both ears.
> 
> So I would suggest you start with a simple build, if you want something that's good for an audiophile from the start and are not afraid of killing a hundred bucks worth of BAs, go for a Knowles GV (4 receiver in a package). Or use something cheaper, you will inevitably lose some drivers. I had to build like 6 or 7 pairs until I was finally (almost) happy with mine, killing *~*3 drivers in the process.
> 
> ...


thank you for your advice. Thats for sure better to begin with some easier and less complex setups.
btw, speaking of soldering, my experience is using a soldering station is relatively easier to handle and greatly reduces the chances of damaging drivers. You may search for keyword like 'Quick 936', you can get one at a reasonable price on website like Taobao, after all, many stuffs nowadays are manufactured in PRC.


----------



## eunice

cchitsun said:


> thank you for your advice. Thats for sure better to begin with some easier and less complex setups.
> btw, speaking of soldering, my experience is using a soldering station is relatively easier to handle and greatly reduces the chances of damaging drivers. You may search for keyword like 'Quick 936', you can get one at a reasonable price on website like Taobao, after all, many stuffs nowadays are manufactured in PRC.



Thanks for your advice. I am already using a soldering station, if you set it to low temp you won't damage your drivers. I never once damaged a receiver by soldering. I only have a little experience in soldering, but for me the soldering part was the easiest part of the entire build process.

I killed one receiver by accidently getting glue into the nozzle. I tried to salvage it, to no avail. Two drivers started to make a snaring sound, I am not sure what exactly happened to them, but I am suspecting I dropped them too often or the vibrations from polishing killed them.

Everything else was a big challenge for me. I failed completely with lacker and it took a while for me to get the shells somewhat nice. I will never be able to match the beauties of the veterans in this thread, but I love the sound of mine and they look ok'ish.

But what I can tell you is this: It feels SO good to have a nice sounding and comfortable pair of DIY CIEM.


----------



## playpunk

eunice said:


> Thanks for your advice. I am already using a soldering station, if you set it to low temp you won't damage your drivers. I never once damaged a receiver by soldering. I only have a little experience in soldering, but for me the soldering part was the easiest part of the entire build process.
> 
> I killed one receiver by accidently getting glue into the nozzle. I tried to salvage it, to no avail. Two drivers started to make a snaring sound, I am not sure what exactly happened to them, but I am suspecting I dropped them too often or the vibrations from polishing killed them.
> 
> ...



Hey I just got my first acceptable pair of shells finished today. 100g of fotoplast all used up. I feel like I'm getting a solid system down, so I am going to continue on with this madness. 

I understand, on some level, that there are gains out there in quality with tubing and damping adjustments, but the sound quality from a set of GK's without dampers on acceptable (for homemade only) CIEM's is pretty exceptional, IMO. Of course, I'm just a guitarist and don't have golden bat-like audiophile ears, so my opinion is worth exactly what you've paid for it.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

For new builders to understand about impedance of speaker more simply

Crossover must be designed with impedance curve and frequency graph in hand for better tuning and sound.


----------



## Senor CIEM

Hi together!

Looking for a good way to make a white shell. I got the Fotoplast in different color which I can mix together and the color concentrates which I got of Dreve. Also they offer a black Fotoplast version. But how gettin a white shell as easy as possible and looking good? Any experience with tattoo color or pigments ESPECIALLY for a nice white tone? 

Thank you!


----------



## eunice

Paint the inside of a clear shell white using nail color? I have heard that you can mix alcohol coloring to the fotoplast, maybe that exists in white.


----------



## Senor CIEM

eunice said:


> Paint the inside of a clear shell white using nail color? I have heard that you can mix alcohol coloring to the fotoplast, maybe that exists in white.



I think I wanna try the more „professional“ way. I know some companies which are using Fotoplast and can do a complete white shell and faceplate. But don‘t know how. - Alcohol coloring, not sure if it works good, read some old posts where some users got problems to mix it in well.  Maybe pigments like powder are the way to go? Any suggestions?


----------



## Bassiklee

Opaque colors are very difficult,  since they block the light.  I've had some success with pigment powder,  but I'm going another way for opaque colors.


----------



## cchitsun

Hello all, 

I have some questions about the placement of crossover. I'd like know when making a 3 way crossover, where should the cut off points likely go to, or perhaps the other way round over which range a crossover should be avoided?

I am thinking of using 38AM007Mi/8a, DTEC 30008 and SWTK 31736 to build a 3 way crossover earphone. I think I am lost when trying to figure out where I should put the cut-off between the low frequency and mid-range. 

According to the data sheet available on Sonion and Knowles's websites in respect of the drivers, the first peak of 38AM007Mi/8a is situated around 1100Hz and the first peak of DTEC 30008 is also very closely situated around 1000Hz. Does that mean that if I insist going on with this combination, I have to give up this first peak of DTEC 30008? or actually the first peak of DTEC can be deliberately 'dragged' to a higher range of the frequency curve by connecting it to a capacitor? And then the next question is where should I put the cut off point?

Thanks in advance for your advice.


----------



## IvanNOON (Feb 2, 2019)

cchitsun said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I have some questions about the placement of crossover. I'd like know when making a 3 way crossover, where should the cut off points likely go to, or perhaps the other way round over which range a crossover should be avoided?
> 
> ...


38AM007 looks like HODVTEC alternative so you'd want to cross it over quite low, below 200Hz (subwoofer duty)
SWFK is a super tweeter so crossover point should be above 8kHz
DTEC's are good for mids, but don't extend into presence region (in my experience) so you might want to use something like ED to bridge the gap between DTEC and SWFK. Or maybe just use TWFK instead of SWFK.

The problem is, I have no experience with DTEC-30008 so I don't know it's range. If it extends well past 10kHz you can discard my last point. Just put a damper on it and you'll be fine.

Start by trying to meet DTEC and SWFK; if it works - add 33AM007


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Well, this thread was started in 2009
i mean to say, it is 10years old
lol
I have learnt a lot from this thread


by the way
@piotrus-g 
Knowles 33357 is also used in Fiio FA1, which is making rave reviews in china and india 
From design point of view, it is driver and tube with cavity in nozzle acting like a stepped horn with some sort of damper

and i am seeing a lot of iem popping out with the driver you used first(as i know, FIBAE 1 only comes on google till date when you search knowles 33357)

Well, if this driver is now open for other manufacturers, how can i order it.

I had some experience with FED. It sounds amazing but the treble is not there. It can only be used as Midrange driver. FED bass is slightly more controlled than ED but doesnt have the power of CI. FED is linear impedance and phase but cannot solve the treble area


----------



## eunice

Guys, I did it! I really managed to build @piotrus-g s scary crossover design with traditional components (no SMD).

It just barely fits into my shells and you don't imagine the pain I went through. One stopped working as the soldering pad of the TWFK broke off, I had to rebuild it. Then it stopped working again but after gluing the tubes in place, but this time I was able to fix it by soldering inside the shell ... Next time I'll build it using SMD.

Anyway for those of you thinking about going the same route, build details in the Spoiler.



Spoiler






 
I soldered everything and covered the CI crossover in some resin, to keep it in a nice package.



 


 



 

Looks a little cramped.



 

Ready for polishing




Sound wise it has some pros and cons compare to the GV. Upper mids and highs are definitively slightly better, less harsh and more pleasing than the GV. Bass is a little less compared to the GV with open vents, but by no means too little.
Hoewever these are definitively V shaped, which is not my cup of tea. I grew up with the Sennheiser signature and I like a warmer signature. 
I tried modifying them by adding different dampers, but everything I did just threw them off balance and didn't improve them at all. The GV I got to sound warm with orange dampers on highs and lows.

But that is entirely a personal preference, many just love this signature. This signature works especially good for Rock, Metal, Jazz but I do not like it with electronic or classical music.

So what to build next? Are there any recipes that produce a less V shaped an warmer sound signature? Did anyone try @Shilohsjustice HODVTEC + TWFK design? Or @Savant ED29689 + ED30761? Is any of them warmer?


----------



## IvanNOON (Feb 2, 2019)

eunice said:


> Guys, I did it! I really managed to build @piotrus-g s scary crossover design with traditional components (no SMD).
> 
> It just barely fits into my shells and you don't imagine the pain I went through. One stopped working as the soldering pad of the TWFK broke off, I had to rebuild it. Then it stopped working again but after gluing the tubes in place, but this time I was able to fix it by soldering inside the shell ... Next time I'll build it using SMD.
> 
> ...



Nice job!
Savant is neutral-ish mild V. But you can make it warmer by using higher Ohm resisor and/or red/orange damper on ED29689.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Feb 2, 2019)

eunice said:


> Guys, I did it! I really managed to build @piotrus-g s scary crossover design with traditional components (no SMD).
> 
> It just barely fits into my shells and you don't imagine the pain I went through. One stopped working as the soldering pad of the TWFK broke off, I had to rebuild it. Then it stopped working again but after gluing the tubes in place, but this time I was able to fix it by soldering inside the shell ... Next time I'll build it using SMD.
> 
> ...


Well

First of all, instead of pure series resistor, go for L-pad on CI drivers.

Reason

L-pad keeps the voice coil resistance same, which leads to proper attenuation compared to series resistance.

Only tweeter has faired better with series resistance.

On bass driver, you will always want the Ztotal to be equal to Zo.

If we put series resistance, it adds up impedance, increase the peak of resonant and increase the area of peak, which lead to uncontrolled behaviour.

Well CI does fair better in control compared to HODVTEC but I went with L pad.

On TWFK I went two 330ohm damper

One directly in front of TWFK nozzle and one at center.


Go for savant build if you want neutral sound.
But some tweaks I have mentioned above for savant build above.

Go for L-Pad instead of series 20ohm. Full range driver shows a lot of bad behaviour with series resistance. You can see the reviews and analysis as people are claiming it doesn't sound as good as it measure.

They tell the female vocals are shouty and treble is brittle.
That is because of added distortion of 20ohm resistance and uncontrolled voice coil.


ED29689 is 3.65 ohm and you require 16.23dB attenuation compared to ED30761

Second thing is
Please dont flatten out the 2mm tube on nozzle like noble. It creates pressure at end, which can make treble sound really bad.

And do experiment with a super low pass subwoofer as noble savant lack good subbass air.

Savant is like etymotic with bad treble and extended mid bass and the soundstage feeling like it was stretched.
I mean to say, it is not bad and is nice mid focused, really well done IEM. But the treble is sort of really not good feeling. It feels like it is distorting. Well that is because

Ety er4 was just ED29689 with 20ohm and green damper at end, it never showed the treble issues.

Here the green damper is near the nozzle(ED29689) and other driver(ED30761) is without resistance, full range with a red damper also near.

This make the driver treble to come out and the first ED(green) in conjunction to other ED(red, no nozzle) is technically more impedant with the resonance shifting higher.

As you will see the diagram of savant, the impedance tell the whole story

As you can see, the rise from 250Hz is not normal plus the dip near 4kHz should be in margin of 10% to 15% more value of DC resistance of both driver.

This way, the driver works pretty normally on any given amp.

Savant 4kHz and above is brittle 

But after L-pad the issue was more so solved


----------



## piotrus-g

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Well, this thread was started in 2009
> i mean to say, it is 10years old
> lol
> I have learnt a lot from this thread
> ...


I can't comment on that



eunice said:


> Guys, I did it! I really managed to build @piotrus-g s scary crossover design with traditional components (no SMD).
> 
> It just barely fits into my shells and you don't imagine the pain I went through. One stopped working as the soldering pad of the TWFK broke off, I had to rebuild it. Then it stopped working again but after gluing the tubes in place, but this time I was able to fix it by soldering inside the shell ... Next time I'll build it using SMD.
> 
> ...


Well build the triple driver it's much more balanced and less V-shaped.


----------



## eunice

piotrus-g said:


> Well build the triple driver it's much more balanced and less V-shaped.



@piotrus-g I can’t thank you enough for all the advice you dropped in this thread. 

What do you mean by ‚the triple driver‘? Is that a recipe of yours in this thread I missed? I would happily follow your advice.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

eunice said:


> @piotrus-g I can’t thank you enough for all the advice you dropped in this thread.
> 
> What do you mean by ‚the triple driver‘? Is that a recipe of yours in this thread I missed? I would happily follow your advice.


If I am thinking right

He means to say CI+TWFK


----------



## piotrus-g

eunice said:


> @piotrus-g I can’t thank you enough for all the advice you dropped in this thread.
> 
> What do you mean by ‚the triple driver‘? Is that a recipe of yours in this thread I missed? I would happily follow your advice.


Thanks!
Yeah, there is 3-driver design in this thread based on CI+TWFK i believe I posted it before the 4-driver


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Feb 3, 2019)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Series, hmmmm nice
> 
> best way to increase driver, dB in safe manner plus get the same impedance graph(More impedance only) as one driver...
> 
> ...


@Ivan TT

i want to correct myself

If you run 4 drivers in series vs 4 driver parallel at same volume

series one gives a lot more distortion
because of added resistance, inductance and capacitance of driver

but added safety is lower overall driver

You are safe, as it doesn't go loud 4 RAB parallel due to high impedance and resistance


as i was stimulating the design on Comsol

2 x (2x RAB set in series) parallel terminated to two wires connected to zobel before MMCX or 2pin connector

The parallel keeps the voltage same, divides the current for 2 set of series RAB

the dual series RAB then divides the Voltage while keeping the current same

This leads to 1/2 voltage, 1/2 current compared to Full amps and 1/4 voltage

this will keep the RAB at 22ohm DC, 33ohm 500Hz and 7.8mH 500Hz property same, but will flatten out the phase slightly, and lower the value and frequency of resonant peak

plus add zobel

41.25ohm metal foil resistance
4.6uF cap


This leads to better dynamic range, better heat transfer(If any, as BA is small), lower distortion, more volume and more extension

even though you did 1/4 voltage, the ampere going in still something to care for. plus change in single driver property due to added impedance of all other driver. If you series them first(in pairs) and then parallel it with two terminal wire (parallel drivers +ve connected and -ve connected)

all the parameters return back to single RAB while all the driver diaphragm are moving less, more surface area for driver(the two reason will reduce air reactive resistance and increase reactive load while bigger surface area will move resonant impedant peak from 3kHz to somewhat lower than 1KHz as its surface area would be bigger than a single CI while damping it)

The reason in brackets are more than enough


the best way to make BA setup sound like speaker is go 16 RAB in sets of 4 RAB

all doing full range and have 22ohm DC resistance. That setup would be fun as heck as the driver surface area would increase dramatically compared to 1kHz and will drop the resonant peak way lower(I mean way lower, plus damp it)


----------



## Ivan TT

dhruvmeena96 said:


> the best way to make BA setup sound like speaker is go 16 RAB in sets of 4 RAB


That would be FUN!


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Ivan TT said:


> That would be FUN!


@CoiL @Ivan TT 

i was not aware that you both were on opamp thread lol

Dont roll anything on Aune of yours @CoiL

@Ivan TT try to keep the total impedance of driver same. more driver with impedance of single driver will lead to lower diaphragm movement, more sensitivity, same or slighlty more loudness and way bigger dynamic range compared to single driver

and the treble response will rise while flattening the impedance slightly down and the zobel will clean up the treble peaks

you gave me the inspiration for simple 16 driver, without crossovers, without dampers(or slight dampers).


----------



## Ivan TT

dhruvmeena96 said:


> you gave me the inspiration for simple 16 driver, without crossovers, without dampers(or slight dampers).


Awesome!

I don't know if you tried 4 driver set up, so apologies if I'm giving you unnecessary advise but give it a go, especially since RAF's are dirt-cheap and could be housed in a medium sized shell with a bit of front air and no individual tubing required (just #13 tubing in the nozzle to accommodate dampers, I would try all in the grey-green spectrum).

I cannot quite confirm that my impressions of 2 or 4-driver RAB in series set up match your descriptions and rationale, quite the opposite: I note that the peaks seem to have smoothed out and LF response improved in 2-driver and to a lesser degree of improvement above 2 driver 4-driver set up. Alas practical outcome will not always be as suspected, but it also brings some good results too, all I can say is that my 4 driver RAB-based set up is exceptionally good sounding and I have a total of 16 RAFs in the mail (including shells to house them in).

I will try Zobel as you suggest (at some stage, hopefully soon), but the most important things is that I am content with the way my projects sound (well, except for a single-driver RAB) and thourowly enjoy the music I love!


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Feb 4, 2019)

Ivan TT said:


> Awesome!
> 
> I don't know if you tried 4 driver set up, so apologies if I'm giving you unnecessary advise but give it a go, especially since RAF's are dirt-cheap and could be housed in a medium sized shell with a bit of front air and no individual tubing required (just #13 tubing in the nozzle to accommodate dampers, I would try all in the grey-green spectrum).
> 
> ...


I suggested the design after studying, clearing my doubts here and there....
Well, in the end, its you and your house sound.

Well it is still better than 1 though

And you gave me inspiration for more driver no cross simplicity.

LoL

Well I stimulated yours and mine on comsol multi physics
Inserting frequency graph in excel and impedance

And importing file, so I can get somewhat near results.

I have tried RAF single, dual build

And with your resonator


It just feels good, the resonator doesn't let the peak form


----------



## Ivan TT

dhruvmeena96 said:


> And you gave me inspiration for more driver no cross simplicity.


You will not be disappointed!
And your suggestions are always appreciated, keep them coming, I learn a lot from your posts


----------



## IvanNOON

dhruvmeena96 said:


> the best way to make BA setup sound like speaker is go 16 RAB in sets of 4 RAB


Same principle as line array speakers. Would love to see your results!


----------



## CoiL

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Dont roll anything on Aune of yours @CoiL



Why the heck not? I call it bad advice, sorry.

I already have rolled many opamps in my Aune T1 additionally to proper capacitor overhaul (done long before) and difference in SQ is quite HUGE!
Btw, just listening to OPA2228PA after ~2-week "burn-in" and this chip is insanely good with Aune T1 + Siemens E88CC goldpin tube! My favourite for sure so far against AD8599ARZ, OPA1612AID, NE5532AD. Will go and pick up one more today, ADA4084-2ARZ but I doubt it will beat OPA2228PA in this application cuz latter sounds crazy good!


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Feb 4, 2019)

Reserved


----------



## PinoNL

Ivan TT said:


> Awesome!
> 
> I don't know if you tried 4 driver set up, so apologies if I'm giving you unnecessary advise but give it a go, especially since RAF's are dirt-cheap and could be housed in a medium sized shell with a bit of front air and no individual tubing required (just #13 tubing in the nozzle to accommodate dampers, I would try all in the grey-green spectrum).
> 
> ...



I’d love to see pictures of this setup


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Feb 4, 2019)

@Ivan TT @IvanNOON




Here goes the design

All driver have 1/4 Volt and 1/4 amps. All driver have pure 6.25% energy distribution instead of 100% on single driver.

True 16x , and 16 times lower power per driver.

Distortion will also drop dead(I think, should not be visible on measuring unit)

Better impedance due continuous series parallel, shifting and damping impedance resonance and reactive load.

Since all driver are moving way too less. This means air resistance due to closed top of BA will also decrease by a huge degree.

Reactance will also decrease, but 16x driver moving air is still overkill. Per BA resistance decrease, all BA air reactance equating to single driver.

Added zobel, sweetens up the treble

Now, the issue is, the space required in the shell

I dont know how to make shells, I use aliexpress 40usd shell.

And I know, it won't fit.



Well, I could have done 4 series and then all 4 set of 4 driver parallel.

But this will induce huge effect on single BA performance. 4BA combined 7.8mHx4 inductance and resistance in 4x4 setup would have killed the treble range.

That is why I went
2x2x2x2 pattern instead of 4x4

2series x 2parallel x 2 series x 2parallel instead of 4series and then paralleling them to other 3 set of 4 driver.


----------



## Ivan TT

PinoNL said:


> I’d love to see pictures of this setup


----------



## eunice

Which RAB are you referring to? Knowles  RAB-32066 ?


----------



## PinoNL

Ivan TT said:


>



Nice job!


----------



## Ivan TT

PinoNL said:


> Nice job!


Thanks!
Next iteration will use 4 RAF drivers and I will try to get more front air volume too by using wider tube glued into the shell with a short run of #13 tubing glued into the nozzle for dampers. 
It’s a shame that the seller on taobao ran out of these shells though


----------



## PinoNL

Ivan TT said:


> Thanks!
> Next iteration will use 4 RAF drivers and I will try to get more front air volume too by using wider tube glued into the shell with a short run of #13 tubing glued into the nozzle for dampers.
> It’s a shame that the seller on taobao ran out of these shells though



I’m waiting on two sets of universal shells for my first builds. This is one of the designs I really like to try if the shells permit it


----------



## alanwcruz

Hi guys, been playing around with face plates, finally got something worth showing off


----------



## eunice

alanwcruz said:


> Hi guys, been playing around with face plates, finally got something worth showing off


Beautiful! How did you do them? Is that a resin or did you color some fotoplast? How did you do the print?


----------



## alanwcruz (Feb 4, 2019)

eunice said:


> Beautiful! How did you do them? Is that a resin or did you color some fotoplast? How did you do the print?



I made the face plates using normal clear fotoplast, cured, cleaned with alcohol to remove tacky residue, sanded both sides, applied lacquer to both sides, then I applied some InkAID to the side that faces the monitor (inside), got myself an old inkjet printer that also prints direct to DVD's with a special tray, printed my image flipped horizontally to print backwards on a piece of white paper cut to the size of a dvd placed on the special tray, then got some double sided tape to fix my face plate right over the image, printed again, let dry, applied another coat of lacquer on the print and voila.

The golden color is also part of the entire print, after that I just glued, sanded, buffed and gave a last coat of lacquer.

Looked into direct flatbed UV printing, but those printers are very expensive.


----------



## eunice

alanwcruz said:


> I made the face plates using normal clear fotoplast, cured, cleaned with alcohol to remove tacky residue, sanded both sides, applied lacquer to both sides, then I applied some InkAID to the side that faces the monitor (inside), got myself an old inkjet printer that also prints direct to DVD's with a special tray, printed my image flipped horizontally to print backwards on a piece of white paper cut to the size of a dvd placed on the special tray, then got some double sided tape to fix my face plate right over the image, printed again, let dry, applied another coat of lacquer on the print and voila.


You are a genius. I am very impressed and I have to try that!

Thank you so much for sharing this solution!

Also I will try to print a PCB that way.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

2x2x2x2 setup vs 4x4 setup

No change in frequency response

Distortion and instability issue because of 4 series driver and 4 parallel connection(driver by driver loading)
It will be still negligible so 4x4 is also a option

@Ivan TT you can add 3 more modules of RAB, no issue

It will be simpler and fraction of 1/4 voltage and amp is maintained

All driver will work only 6.25%.

The issue will rise when you crack volume way higher. I mean headphone level


----------



## dhruvmeena96

alanwcruz said:


> Hi guys, been playing around with face plates, finally got something worth showing off


Sexy AF

These look very good


----------



## Slater

alanwcruz said:


> I made the face plates using normal clear fotoplast, cured, cleaned with alcohol to remove tacky residue, sanded both sides, applied lacquer to both sides, then I applied some InkAID to the side that faces the monitor (inside), got myself an old inkjet printer that also prints direct to DVD's with a special tray, printed my image flipped horizontally to print backwards on a piece of white paper cut to the size of a dvd placed on the special tray, then got some double sided tape to fix my face plate right over the image, printed again, let dry, applied another coat of lacquer on the print and voila.
> 
> The golden color is also part of the entire print, after that I just glued, sanded, buffed and gave a last coat of lacquer.
> 
> Looked into direct flatbed UV printing, but those printers are very expensive.



Slick idea friend!


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Rabid86 said:


> Hello again! I have been trying to finish up the electronical notch-filter and it has worked pretty well! My problem, however, is that the high frequencies gets affected aswell.
> Here is a graph of the headphones before and after the use of the filter:
> 
> 
> ...


You should have tried a series notch filter

Plus measure the resistance of inductor coil and change the value of resistor.

Inductor coil have resistance, which will effect the R on your circuit.  Actually it will act as a shunt specific resistor increasing the area of damping in Q.

Your circuit is a series notch filter(of we take in the resistamce of inductor) with a series resistor.

This will dampen the whole treble range significantly.

Try changing the value of above resistor(R) for more value or add a shunt resistor in parallel to inductor which can reduce its resistance by half.

This way you will gain your treble back


----------



## koold

Hi, This is my first post here but I am entering the realm of the DIY CIEM.
I am about to order the drivers from mcear.de but don´t know which one to choose. 

He suggested me to go with the GK-33211-000  (higher bass it says)  without dampers, but I could´t find any info about them online.

The other options are the GK-31732-000 and the 4-way GV-32830-000 but he told me that the GV sound quite sterile.

What would you recommend? I will mainly use them as stage monitors playing synths.

Thank all of you for putting together so much information! 
539 pages!!!


----------



## dhruvmeena96

koold said:


> Hi, This is my first post here but I am entering the realm of the DIY CIEM.
> I am about to order the drivers from mcear.de but don´t know which one to choose.
> 
> He suggested me to go with the GK-33211-000  (higher bass it says)  without dampers, but I could´t find any info about them online.
> ...


Go for aliexpress for cheaper rates
Check the soldering skill(crosscheck by practicing)

GV sounds good
On stage, you need bass

You can try piotrus-g scary crossover with two CI and TWFK

It will be stage ready iem


----------



## Lucas Taboada

Hi everyone!! how are you guys making opaque faceplates?

I was using nail polish in the inside to make a black faceplate, but it did not have a good covering, so I had to put a lot of layers to make it opaque. With a lot of layers nail polish always become a bit stickier and soft. So my faceplate is not gluing and it drops when I'm sanding/buffing the shells.

Any tips?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

@Rabid86 @Ivan TT @IvanNOON @zern_c @Slater @CoiL

paper for notch filtering in impedance
TDK BA200 tech with formula
and this design will work with 2way iem
https://patents.google.com/patent/US20130028437


----------



## dhruvmeena96

cheap shunt notch fix.

It do the job but lower the value of overall impedance too


----------



## dhruvmeena96

It is actually R^2/2R after some  derivation... I was calculating from this formula but then I realised 

What.

It is R/2, simple


I died laughing last night


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Feb 6, 2019)

Well, in the end of the day, pen and paper with documentation printed lying on the desk is what makes you proud.

I was searching for impedance fixes, and I stumbled on parallel shunt fixes.

That is what I call juggad(quick dirty fix), but then it sparked my mind


That if we take a series notch filter and try lowering capacitor, then what do we have to compensate on coil and resistor.

Then I dropped cap to zero and slowly the coil to zero.

Which lead me to the equation of my resistance.

This is calculated from 500Hz resistance.

Then I took that formula and equated to Z of driver(average)

And derived this

Z/2


Mouser has average impedance mentioned(no need to go in pro sheets and scratch the brain.)



..................


This is reserved, will tell the exact amount of resistance needed to fix the notch

It Is lower than shunt value I calculated


----------



## koold

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Go for aliexpress for cheaper rates
> Check the soldering skill(crosscheck by practicing)
> 
> GV sounds good
> ...



Thank you for your answer
for my first CIEM I prefer to go with a Balanced Armature ready to install, I have enough with learning how to do the acrylic shells for the moment. 

Any experiences with the GK-33211-000 ?  Can not find any info about them...


----------



## dhruvmeena96

koold said:


> Thank you for your answer
> for my first CIEM I prefer to go with a Balanced Armature ready to install, I have enough with learning how to do the acrylic shells for the moment.
> 
> Any experiences with the GK-33211-000 ?  Can not find any info about them...


Well

Go for GQ-30783 and RAB-32257


GQ-30783 => 2.0mm x 19.5mm tubing with a Knowles Green filter (1500ohm) at center of tube + Knowles grey filter (330ohm) after green filter
RAB-32257 => 2.0mm x 15.5mm tubing with Knowles grey filter (330ohm) at center of tube

no crossover required

some soldering required

@Furco design, sounds amazing


----------



## eunice

koold said:


> The other options are the GK-31732-000 and the 4-way GV-32830-000 but he told me that the GV sound quite sterile.
> ...
> Any experiences with the GK-33211-000 ?  Can not find any info about them...



What is your role on stage? In this thread, a few pages back, there is a guitarist very happy with his GK build. 

I did not test the GK, but I built a GV and the scary crossover (among others) I did love the GV the most so far. The scary crossover is an intense build, definitively do not start with that. 

You should probably follow Benjamins advice, he definitively knows what he's talking about.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Here comes the magic

Resistors should be metal foil and caps have to SILMIC II

Impedance is dropped like hell by just simple circuit design.

Zobel and L-pad

Total attenuation is 8dB
Knowles rates the RAB at 108dB, so mine is 100dB

Keeps DC resistance of original but heavily damps the circuit and fixes the impedance and phase. No shift in FR as such.


----------



## IvanNOON (Feb 6, 2019)

@koold
GQ-30783 is a good starting point - simple double with 1 sound outlet = only 1 tube to worry about.
White/brown damper for neutral, green/red/orange for bassier sound.
Experiment with 1.5mm/2mm tubing. 
2mm*15mm with brown damper (@ end of tube) worked well for me.

If you feel more adventurous try the GQ+RAB build mentioned previously.


----------



## eunice

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Resistors should be metal foil and caps have to SILMIC II


How on earth can you fit these into a shell?


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Feb 6, 2019)

eunice said:


> How on earth can you fit these into a shell?


well, you are right

metal foil is must
cap has to be higher quality

that is comsol thingie

SILMIC showed least deviation

Nobium cap or good ceramic is lowest point
metal foil resistor is must


ROSE technics use silmic for crossover in BR7

well, highest quality(technical standpoint) so that deviation in spec is minimised


----------



## dhruvmeena96

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Here comes the magic
> 
> Resistors should be metal foil and caps have to SILMIC II
> 
> ...





eunice said:


> How on earth can you fit these into a shell?





dhruvmeena96 said:


> well, you are right
> 
> metal foil is must
> cap has to be higher quality
> ...


OK

tell me what should i use in quality component then

@piotrus-g @Ivan TT @Shilohsjustice @IvanNOON


----------



## IvanNOON

dhruvmeena96 said:


> OK
> 
> tell me what should i use in quality component then
> 
> @piotrus-g @Ivan TT @Shilohsjustice @IvanNOON


No idea



dhruvmeena96 said:


>



L-pad is series before shunt, why do you have shunt before series?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

IvanNOON said:


> No idea
> 
> 
> 
> L-pad is series before shunt, why do you have shunt before series?


That is magic bro

Ok if i use the shunt as it is

it drops to 11ohm

if i use series resistance and then a shunt, impedance fix is less noticeable in some part

ok 

First signal goes in Zobel, dropping the rising impedance
Then it go into shunt notch parallel resistor, to drop of impedance peak like magic
then a series resistor of highest quality to add back the lost resistance equally to whole impedance graph


----------



## dhruvmeena96

parallel resistor 

formula (1/R1) + (1/R2) 

so if we take DC resistance 22ohm 
and by going about the value of shunt i did

the new value is 11.47826086956 ohm for the driver

on 500 Hz stock impedance is 33 ohm

then the value for driver is 13.89473684210 ohm

on 1kHz stock does a 48ohm(this is Z of a driver)

mine will do a 16ohm

on Resonant peak point, stock does a ~200 ohm

mine does a 21.3ohm


and zobel is making things flat already on HF

Now, adding back the lost resistance according DC resistance(Approx 11.5ohm), we need a resistor which can provide a linear resistance increase

so i added a 10.5ohm in final
so new values are very different from old RAF

*Old Stock Values
*
22ohm        DC
33ohm        500Hz
48ohm        1kHz
~200ohm     3kHz

And the rising impedance



*New values*

22ohm         DC
24.4ohm      500Hz
26.5ohm      1kHz
31.8ohm      3kHz

and Flat impedance



the new driver has lost 7.329dB~8dB according to Knowles Pro paper
which gives our driver a total of 100dB ~ 101dB nearby sensitivity on 22ohm compared to stock 108dB 22ohm on stock driver
Then there is some loss on treble side after 7kHz due to zobel working on RAB

so my average is 98dB 22ohm on RAB but with somewhat tamed near neutral impedance


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Feb 6, 2019)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> parallel resistor
> 
> formula (1/R1) + (1/R2)
> 
> ...




well i did a mistake

Zobel will go inside and reverse L-pad will come outside


----------



## koold

eunice said:


> What is your role on stage? In this thread, a few pages back, there is a guitarist very happy with his GK build.
> 
> I did not test the GK, but I built a GV and the scary crossover (among others) I did love the GV the most so far. The scary crossover is an intense build, definitively do not start with that.
> 
> You should probably follow Benjamins advice, he definitively knows what he's talking about.



Thank you for your input, I will be mostly playing synths and drum machines, so I need to hear the full spectrum as clear as possible.



IvanNOON said:


> @koold
> GQ-30783 is a good starting point - simple double with 1 sound outlet = only 1 tube to worry about.
> White/brown damper for neutral, green/red/orange for bassier sound.
> Experiment with 1.5mm/2mm tubing.
> ...



I was thinking on going with a 3-way system, I am not that scared of the two tubes... but I don`t feel like  messing around with crossovers or many dampers configurations.

I would prefer ordering from mcear than from aliexpress , especially for the shipping times and costumer service in case of any problem, he answered my emails straight away and very kindly, I am placing an order to buy all the stuff neded to make the CIEM there (molds, acrilyc, tubes, cable, etc..)

That´s why I was between this three options,  GK-33211-000, GK-31732-000 and GV-32830-000

I mostly inclined to follow his advice to get the GK-33211-000 with no dumpers, but can´t find any info about it, but he told me that it has more bass than the GK-31732-000.



dhruvmeena96 said:


> GV sounds good
> On stage, you need bass


Do you mean that the GV has enough bass? or that I need extra bass?

Thank you all!!


----------



## eunice

koold said:


> Do you mean that the GV has enough bass? or that I need extra bass?


The GV has two small ports with a tape on it. You can remove the tape for more bass. I also reduce the highs with orange/yellow dampers in both tubes. That gives plenty of bass. Definitively enough.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

koold said:


> Thank you for your input, I will be mostly playing synths and drum machines, so I need to hear the full spectrum as clear as possible.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


GQ + RAB is easiest as you are not messing the crossover. Just run them in full range and use the specified dampers

its good in tuning(actually very good detail in air)


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Feb 6, 2019)

@IvanNOON @eunice @Ivan TT @zern_c @Rabid86
i did reworked the circuit

now
zobel is connected directly to driver

parallel shunt notch is 8.55ohm and 16ohm is in series(Reverse L-pad)

*Latest Filter*

DC       -     22.15 ohm
500Hz  -    22.79 ohm
1kHz    -    23.25 ohm
3kHz    -    24.19 ohm
>5kHz  -    22.78 ohm

*Old Filter

*
DC         -   22 ohm
500Hz    -   24.4 ohm
1kHz      -   26.5 ohm
3kHz      -   31.8 ohm
>5kHz    -   24.4 ohm


*Stock
*

DC        -      22 ohm
500Hz   -      33 ohm
1kHz     -      48 ohm
3kHz     -     200 ohm
>5kHz   -  Rise


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Finally solved the impedance plaguing issue without inductor coil(series notch)
plus resonant peak can be damped on any driver now, which solves the phase issue

For impedance rise, voice coil rise
i need voice coil inductance


but after seeing the knowles data, it is better to use the WBFK or SWFK for tweeter in any purpose. Because the rising impedance is way more flat and can be damped by L-Pad or reverse L-pad(my formula way)


----------



## Furco

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Well
> 
> Go for GQ-30783 and RAB-32257
> 
> ...



If you can get the right fit, in terms of your cIEMs or universals, the sounds is definitely excellent.  I still use the pair I built a few years ago today.


----------



## Ivan TT

dhruvmeena96 said:


> zobel is connected directly to driver
> 
> parallel shunt notch is 8.55ohm and 16ohm is in series(Reverse L-pad)


Sorry, cannot quite figure out the circuit.
Can draw it?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Furco said:


> If you can get the right fit, in terms of your cIEMs or universals, the sounds is definitely excellent.  I still use the pair I built a few years ago today.


Well, the damper position, I wanted to know

Where did you place damper


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Feb 6, 2019)

@Rabid86 thanks for testing the design
@Ivan TT I will post the new design today

Rabid86 states that zobel was to powerful in damping the whole spectrum(I still dont know the driver as RAB and RAF peak is on 3kHZ).

Hmm if the zobel is damping so much

That can be due to 41.25ohm resistor

So does any body know if I reduce resistor, how much the change in caps should be

Well he also states that, distortion figures at 1kHz seems more noticeable. I think surrounding distortion was damped so much that distortion seemed obvious at that range.

Lol


----------



## eunice

Has anyone tried simulating IEM Designs with a software like https://kimmosaunisto.net/Software/Software.html? Or are BA receiver so sensitive and impedance to complex so that it won‘t work ?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

eunice said:


> Has anyone tried simulating IEM Designs with a software like https://kimmosaunisto.net/Software/Software.html? Or are BA receiver so sensitive and impedance to complex so that it won‘t work ?


OK I have tried a software like this. You can add drivers in it too

WinISD

There is no issue in using it, but all info for BA is missing

Like QTS, Qms etc.

So using that software gives rough value


----------



## dhruvmeena96

OK @Rabid86 

Put capacitor of zobel towards the positive side and resistor following that

I mean to say, reverse the zobel(interchange capacitor and resistor places)


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Feb 7, 2019)

lower sensitivity, standard impedance

Eliminates hiss, impedance instability, peaks in response
Harder to drive though

WBFK is already linear but I also needed some attenuation electrically

Reverse L-pad effect

DC= 12.5ohm
500= 12.6ohm
1k= 12.7 ohm

Rising impedance flattened completely

Peaks smoothened from top end, plus more extension


Now you guys decide where do I cross the WBFK

The value of C2


@Rabid86 the mistake I did was putting resistor R1 near positive and then capacitor

It has to vice versa

The overdampedness is fixed(I did mistake, sorry)

As per your graph, can you and anybody help me on crossing this design with WBFK30095


----------



## Julienstanford

OK so I’m on the hunt for a similar set up like I’ve seen people using, a very small earbud that sits in a magnetized charging cradle.  Like AirPods but with an IEM shape.  

Most earbuds have a four hour playback with a single moving coil driver and 10 hours from the cradle. I don’t expect to have the same battery life with three BA drivers. But this is a fun exercise and could be useful when I’m traveling light.  

But I haven’t found any earbuds around $30 or $60 with a big enough cavity to install 3 BA drivers. The cheaper the better as I’m going to only be using the Bluetooth and amplifier board.   I expect it to till fit inside a cradle the cradle and charge like it would from the factory. 

I’m not expecting great audio quality because welts, it’s Bluetooth. Yet it should be a fun little experiment.  

So if anyone has an advice or suggestions  especially if you have done this yourself alredy. Please provide links or pictures of the internal cavity.


----------



## Ivan TT

Multidriver experiments result in hoarding BAs on an industrial scale, scary!

My treasure trove from Soundlink arrived today, bless their sales!


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Julienstanford said:


> OK so I’m on the hunt for a similar set up like I’ve seen people using, a very small earbud that sits in a magnetized charging cradle.  Like AirPods but with an IEM shape.
> 
> Most earbuds have a four hour playback with a single moving coil driver and 10 hours from the cradle. I don’t expect to have the same battery life with three BA drivers. But this is a fun exercise and could be useful when I’m traveling light.
> 
> ...


RAB and SWFK will fit

But going for 3 drivers, get a DWFK, or a GQ. It will fit and with proper tuning, it will satisfy.

The issue is always the low end driver in a 3 way IEM, as low end drivers are huge.

GQ+WBFK(Bluetooth wireless actually has restrictive higher freq point. So you can boost that end point before sudden FR drop)

Or a single RAB(with zobel)+SWFK. Love at first sight.(no need for attenuation notch filtering in wireless as it will use a lot of battery life and will not get loud)

Or new Sonion Accupass with dual woofer and a full range.(3 drivers)


----------



## dhruvmeena96

updated zobel

Higher damping lower attenuation

But the old one was better due to driver stabilty


----------



## ForceMajeure (Feb 7, 2019)

this looks interesting



I haven't tested this on simple BA's. but if it's accurate then using a simple signal sine wave generator ( singen software f.e) could help determine the inductance of a driver

I am not sure this will work though since the overall impedance of the circuit doesn't take into account the capacitance of the driver


----------



## eunice

ForceMajeure said:


> I haven't tested this on simple BA's. but if it's accurate then using a simple signal sine wave generator ( singen software f.e) could help determine the inductance of a driver
> 
> I am not sure this will work though since the overall impedance of the circuit doesn't take into account the capacitance of the driver




Is coil inductance still needed if you have an impedance graph?
I haven't tried it yet, but it seems like VituixCAD only needs SPL and Impedance graphs to simulate everything. They even have a tool to extract the graph data from image files (e.g. data sheets). Also you can measure both graphs with RoomEqWizard, with a 2cc coupler and an impedance "jig".

Am I to naive?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

eunice said:


> Is coil inductance still needed if you have an impedance graph?
> I haven't tried it yet, but it seems like VituixCAD only needs SPL and Impedance graphs to simulate everything. They even have a tool to extract the graph data from image files (e.g. data sheets). Also you can measure both graphs with RoomEqWizard, with a 2cc coupler and an impedance "jig".
> 
> Am I to naive?


Yup

And it is not about being naive

This is a common question

For making specific circuit for specific target, impedance graph doesn't tell the whole story.

It only shows resistance per frequency point which is only used to dampen the kurtosis of peak(if any), or cross it in a certain manner that it doesn't show

Well, if your impedance is skewed toward right without any peak(rising) or you want a straight down crossover, inductance value important as it tells you about the voice coil behaviour.

Which impedance doesn't show

Impedance show you mechanical, electrical and total fluctuation in sound by the values of ohm(air load etc and not only resistance by coil)

Impedance tells the overall story
Parameters explain the part of story in depth
Inductance is a parameter


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Feb 7, 2019)

ForceMajeure said:


> this looks interesting
> 
> 
> 
> ...



BA generally have 10pF at 10mHz, which is the peak

So I think capacitance is negligible in acoustic spectrum

So capacitance is not really needed to be taken into account while finding parameters


----------



## eunice (Feb 7, 2019)

This is an interesting discussing.

You are right that voice coil inductance is only one parameter influencing the impedance graph. I do not doubt that, that is why impedance graphs do not look like the graphs of simple coils.

But for designing a proper crossover, you would have to account for all parameters anyway.

Would you calculate a crossover by hand, I agree that for coming up with the proper formula, you would need to know each parameter separately and build your formulas according to that.

I doubt the CAD software does it that way, most probably they simple solve it numerically. They would look at, lets say 100 frequencies per octave, and for each frequency they would calculate the output SPL of the driver. You can simply calculate the resistance in ohms of every component (resistors, caps, inductors) at that particular frequency. Then get the resistance of the drivers from the impedance graph at that particular frequency. From this you could calculate the voltage across the driver and look up the SPL for that driver in the SPL graph. (given the SPL graph is V stable)

So no need to exactly know the parameters like voice coil inductance, air pressure and so on, as they are all summed up in the impedance graph any way.

What am I missing? It seems to be easily doable for a software on todays hardware.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

eunice said:


> This is an interesting discussing.
> 
> You are right that voice coil inductance is only one parameter influencing the impedance graph. I do not doubt that, that is why impedance graphs do not look like the graphs of simple coils.
> 
> ...


I do by hand, LTspice, comsol multi physics then cross confirm and then draw on paper.(office work is confidential, govt thingie, can't click pics, even if I have access to software)

Yup software help when you have more parameters, but human brain can help alter those value for better reasonability.

If you can measure impedance up to 10mHz, yup then impedance can solve everything. But I bet nobody can't.

Software just tell you exact values and sometimes those values are unreasonable(220mH coil and 160uF cap on iem experiment)

But then human brain kicks in and helps you alter the value for same effect

The reverse L-pad(creative common source hardware, I did recently) was designed on paper without measuring rig or software, just by pen and paper(lol, I m proud of myself).


Plus, if we talk crossovers, sometimes measurements doesn't tell behaviour of the driver. That is why HODVTEC is hard to tune. Some air loading and resistance won't show up on graphs and value, so those things are fixed by hit and trails.

Software is here to make things easier is what I think. We should not rely on software, but should do things more on paper and pen with handy calculator and actual realtime tools.


----------



## ForceMajeure (Feb 7, 2019)

what about making a zobel network haha...since dhruvmeena is the master of zobel
it could be interesting to measure the inductance of even a multi ba setup as a whole and go from there to create a zobel network using that method. though I have my doubts it would give an accurate measurement of the overall inductance


----------



## eunice

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Software just tell you exact values and sometimes those values are unreasonable(220mH coil and 160uF cap on iem experiment)


I know only little about electronics, I'm just a software developer with little spare time, trying to learn something new. But my experience with software is enough to know that you are most probably right  

Still, I gotta start somewhere, and there is not enough info available.

I want to learn calculating by hand, do you know of any good resources? Or even better: Could you lay out one of your calculations in detail, so I could follow them step by step and look up the steps I do not understand?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Well i can, even having the 10% error range in mind

But those values are not reasonable 

I just want to make impedance flat and make dampers loose its importance

I think damper are dirty fixes and they destroy more than what they provide


ForceMajeure said:


> what about making a zobel network haha...since dhruvmeena is the master of zobel
> it could be interesting to measure the inductance of even a multi ba setup as a whole and go from there to create a zobel network using that method. though I have my doubts it would give an accurate measurement of the overall inductance


----------



## imsurokim

First time writing this thread. Thinking about getting my first DIY CIEM. I have old westone w3(non-change cable) laying around with wiring problem so may be open it up, save driver and give it a try.
I am getting my ear impression from local audiologist tomorrow and want to have negative mold as soon as possible. However, I am not sure what silicone I should use to get negative mold. Any suggestion? I tried to search but no help. I was thinking about getting this or this. But later one feels like it will be too hard.

Thanks in advance.


----------



## playpunk

imsurokim said:


> First time writing this thread. Thinking about getting my first DIY CIEM. I have old westone w3(non-change cable) laying around with wiring problem so may be open it up, save driver and give it a try.
> I am getting my ear impression from local audiologist tomorrow and want to have negative mold as soon as possible. However, I am not sure what silicone I should use to get negative mold. Any suggestion? I tried to search but no help. I was thinking about getting this or this. But later one feels like it will be too hard.
> 
> Thanks in advance.



Agar/Krystalloid material from: http://fusionet.com/Item/krystalloid-hydrocolloid-duplicating-material is frequently used. Shiloh also has a lengthy tutorial for gelatin negative molds.


----------



## Lucas Taboada

Anyone had any problems with Loctite 495? I have used for glue tubes and it went very well, but yesterday I tried gluing faceplates and got a lot of white flume from normal superglues 
From what I've read about this product, this wasn't supposed to happen...

Any thoughts?


----------



## eunice

I had this exact same phenomenon with a different glue, but only with a specific wood veneer. Out of a set of like 5 different veneers only one had this issue. 

So maybe it is the glue reacting with the material of your faceplate?


----------



## Lucas Taboada

eunice said:


> I had this exact same phenomenon with a different glue, but only with a specific wood veneer. Out of a set of like 5 different veneers only one had this issue.
> 
> So maybe it is the glue reacting with the material of your faceplate?



Could be, but I'm using acrylic sheets for the faceplate, so I don't think it would cause this problems... I don't know

I will try to glue with Fotoplast or Epoxy next time to see what will happen.


----------



## eunice

Fotoplast doesn’t glue very well. Dreve has a product called fotofix, it’s a UV curing glue and it’s perfect for glueing acrylic to acrylic, it doesn’t work with wood though.


----------



## imsurokim

playpunk said:


> Agar/Krystalloid material from: http://fusionet.com/Item/krystalloid-hydrocolloid-duplicating-material is frequently used. Shiloh also has a lengthy tutorial for gelatin negative molds.



Thanks for the info. I will look into it.


----------



## eunice

Dont forget to dip them into wax first, to even out the surface. I dip even twice for a better seal.


----------



## imsurokim

eunice said:


> Dont forget to dip them into wax first, to even out the surface. I dip even twice for a better seal.



I found that tip while reading everything from the beginning now. This thread is quite lengthy. Will take some time to catch up, but that just the way it is. Seems like a lot of people using Dreve Fotoplast for the shell, which I don't have easy access in US. I might just try it with some Amazon UV resin. What are the most popular shell material/lacquer other than Dreve Fotoplast? I don't want to use random material that touches my ear.


----------



## Lucas Taboada

imsurokim said:


> I found that tip while reading everything from the beginning now. This thread is quite lengthy. Will take some time to catch up, but that just the way it is. Seems like a lot of people using Dreve Fotoplast for the shell, which I don't have easy access in US. I might just try it with some Amazon UV resin. What are the most popular shell material/lacquer other than Dreve Fotoplast? I don't want to use random material that touches my ear.



In the US you can buy the Fotoplast 500g bottle at: https://www.audiologysupplies.com/ecom/productpage/5e21f334-f8b8-489b-b901-92eccc98face
And in a small quantity (100g) at: https://lightning-enterprises.com/Item/hearing-aid-shell-UV-material

I believe some people buy from Warner tech-care too.

The most common resins are Dreve Fotoplast I/O and Egger LP/H.


----------



## imsurokim

Lucas Taboada said:


> In the US you can buy the Fotoplast 500g bottle at: https://www.audiologysupplies.com/ecom/productpage/5e21f334-f8b8-489b-b901-92eccc98face
> And in a small quantity (100g) at: https://lightning-enterprises.com/Item/hearing-aid-shell-UV-material
> 
> I believe some people buy from Warner tech-care too.
> ...



Thanks. How many iem pairs can I get out of 100g? I might make two pairs for me and my friend.

So people use Dreve Fotoplast I/O to make shell and Egger LP/H for finishing. Is it correct?

Thanks


----------



## Lucas Taboada

imsurokim said:


> Thanks. How many iem pairs can I get out of 100g? I might make two pairs for me and my friend.
> 
> So people use Dreve Fotoplast I/O to make shell and Egger LP/H for finishing. Is it correct?
> 
> Thanks



I believe you can make 10-12 pairs with 100g if I'm not mistaken.

Dreve Fotoplast I/O and Egger LP/H are the "same" product (resin) from different brands. So you will need to choose one of them, and then you will need a lacquer to do the finishing coat. Both Dreve and Egger have lacquers too.

Here's some videos where you can learn about the process:


----------



## eunice

I tried others but everything just didn’t work and ended up using fotoplast. The only working alternative seems to be Egger Nicefit. Then there is lacquer, eg Fotoplast Lack 3, don’t know the egger equivalent product name. 
But I stopped using lacquer altogether since I found out that I get nice and shiney shells using dreve polishing wax. 
I source from McEar in Germany and what I cannot get from there I order from soundlink Ali Express store or mouser. I hear Soundlink also has an Amazon store, but not for Germany.
The link to the agar from a few posts back seems to sell fotoplast too.


----------



## eunice

I only get around 8 pairs out of 100g, since I cover the face plate in resin too. Also I might have bigger ears than others 

A 100g bottle will get you started. It’s enough to build some experience and order more if needed. After all it’s quite a few days of building. After making ~15 pairs it still takes me approx 5h to make one pair from start to finish.


----------



## imsurokim

Lucas Taboada said:


> I believe you can make 10-12 pairs with 100g if I'm not mistaken.
> 
> Dreve Fotoplast I/O and Egger LP/H are the "same" product (resin) from different brands. So you will need to choose one of them, and then you will need a lacquer to do the finishing coat. Both Dreve and Egger have lacquers too.
> 
> Here's some videos where you can learn about the process:




I already watched all video several times but nothing was telling me what materials I should get. They also get BA from McEar or Ali, but I am utilizing my broken old w3 iem. Do I still need sound dampner to go along with drivers from w3?



eunice said:


> I only get around 8 pairs out of 100g, since I cover the face plate in resin too. Also I might have bigger ears than others
> 
> A 100g bottle will get you started. It’s enough to build some experience and order more if needed. After all it’s quite a few days of building. After making ~15 pairs it still takes me approx 5h to make one pair from start to finish.



Thanks for the reply. I am ordering Dreve resin and polisher.


----------



## eunice

imsurokim said:


> Do I still need sound dampner to go along with drivers from w3?


Well depends on the definition of ‚need‘.

The driver is only a small part of the sound. In an IEM the sound stays inside a sealed volume of air, basically a resonance chamber. The shape of that chamber greatly influences the sound, do not expect your iem to sound anything like the w3. 

The pros are capable of shaping the resonance chamber to achieve the right frequency response, in addition to adjusting the crossover. And even they sometimes use dampers. 

For us DIYers, dampers are an easy way to tune the sound, even after you have built the iem. Just buy a damper tool and a few knowles dampers and you can experiment. 

It’s not a must, but it helps to smoothe the peaks you might get from resonances.


----------



## eunice

Let me try to write a bill of materials:

Negative forms (=investments)

- your ear impressions

- a sharp knife to cut the impressions

- a dremel  with a soft grinding wheel to smoothe the edges of the impressions after cutting and remove excess material

- wax + some way to melt it (a jar in a pot of water will do, wax melts at around 55C )

- a thicker piece wire to hold the impressions while dipping into wax

- agar-agar + some way to melt it (melts at around 90C but needs to cool down to below the wax melting point, again jar in a pot of water will do )

- cups with removable bottom. You glue the impressions to the bottom of the cup with a drip of wax, fill up with agar, wait until agar has solidified, then remove the bottom of the cups and take out the impressions. You can also use plastic cups and cut them open. 

- something to take out the impression. Sharp tweezers will do, but a dental tool much better. With tweezers you sometimes damage the agar. 

- tweezers. Good tweezers are important. 

Shell making:

- uv curing chamber 380nm wavelength, a cheap UV nail light will do. 

- some rotating platform inside the UV chamber

- approx 12g of fotoplast per pair of CIEM

- glycerin to cure the inside of the shell

- isopropyl alcohol for cleaning the tacky layer from the fotoplast after curing 

- a UV flashlight (scorpion light) for curing by hand (eg curing the face plate)

- something nice looking for the face plate, I use wood veneer, but nail polish also works 

- 1200 grit wet sand paper for sanding the rim of the shells 

- Diamond bore for the dremel to cut the holes for the tubes and the socket into the shell

- some dremel grinding tools for adjusting the fit and polishing the shell 

- lacquer and or polishing wax for finishing the shell

- a glue that stays clear and does not produce fumes. I use gorilla glue and sometimes dreve Fotofix UV curing glue


Inside of the IEM

- your drivers
- connector socket (eg MMCX or two pin)
- wire (I use litz wire, but it’s not cheap)
- tubing. I use very short 1mm inner diameter, 2mm outer diameter tubing to attach to the driver, then 2mm ID and 3mm OD to the nozzle of the IEM (I use gorilla glue to glue the tubing)

- temperature controlled soldering station

- blue tack is very handy for soldering

That’s from the top of my head, typed on my phone. I still hope it helps.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Thanks @Rabid86 for implementation of zobel.


----------



## imsurokim

eunice said:


> Well depends on the definition of ‚need‘.
> 
> The driver is only a small part of the sound. In an IEM the sound stays inside a sealed volume of air, basically a resonance chamber. The shape of that chamber greatly influences the sound, do not expect your iem to sound anything like the w3.
> 
> ...



Gotcha. I am reading 115 pages long pdf created by this thread. It seems like it is just for acoustic tuning of the sound. Sound depends on how long the tubes are, where you put damper, which damper is used and so on. I love the sound of my w3, but always wanted little more bass out of them. I think I should try with white on TWFK and red on CIs first and see how it works.


----------



## Choy Wei De

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Well
> 
> Go for GQ-30783 and RAB-32257
> 
> ...




I really like how my RAB sound. I use 12mm of ID 1.0mm connect to the driver, then connect with 12mm of ID 2.0mm, white filter where the 2 tubes meet. With the filter cloth removed.
What should I expect if I include this GQ configuration inside?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Choy Wei De said:


> I really like how my RAB sound. I use 12mm of ID 1.0mm connect to the driver, then connect with 12mm of ID 2.0mm, white filter where the 2 tubes meet. With the filter cloth removed.
> What should I expect if I include this GQ configuration inside?


Immersive stage, better bass compared to stock GQ because of RAB, better extension due to WBFK in GQ

And GQ has ED

GQ+RAB compared to RAB

Better resonant peak(damped and wider)
Better treble air(compared to RAB)
Better Bass compared to GQ(RAB bass)
Way better mids compared to RAB


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Feb 8, 2019)

@ForceMajeure @eunice @Ivan TT @IvanNOON @zern_c 


Here comes the 4 driver RAB final design

Fitear f111 horn unit can be used if you are able to source that out

Driver rising impedance fixed with zobel
4 driver in 25% load per driver and in series parallel shift and damp the resonant peak plus shift in lower frequency.

The Series acoustic expansion resonator with 5mm length dampens every peak, turning it into flat.(formula of resonator is hard, so I will post how to calculate once I have derived simple formula)
The 5mm length was tuned to act as a bigger opening to damp the ear side impedance of 3kHz, it helps in phase perfecting.


The resonator also act as a pressure buffer, so reduced air force in the eardrum, relieving pressure and also increase staging

Last is fitear horn(mentioned in rinchoi blog) this helps to regain the treble .

Add a 1mm length 4mm tube(tiny disc) at the end of horn so that fiting issues in ear is solved.

Enjoy

113dB on 22ohm
No hissing, series driver wit vent stacked outside, it cancel EMF.

Series drivers are hard to hiss


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Feb 8, 2019)

You can remove horn and add 2mm lenght more and cross a tweeter with different tube(tweeter is still optional).

Even with 2mm tube, it will sound darn good.
Just make the resonator 4mm

But add a proper crossover
Low passing (prerty high, the point where the RAB unit starts to roll)the RAB and adding a WBFK/SWFK according to taste


Now I am going to work with perfect point crossover. Midrange as bandpass rather than high freq low pass.

(I have to learn crossovers from scratch once again, it is a tough topic)

Resonator simple formula and different resonator and effect will be posted once I get a proper formula from my simulations.

Series resonator, Helmholtz resonator, kliene and some other funny resonators.


----------



## Choy Wei De

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Immersive stage, better bass compared to stock GQ because of RAB, better extension due to WBFK in GQ
> 
> And GQ has ED
> 
> ...



I would prefer to have more bass, should I swap with a RAF or use a higher value on the dampers? And what is horn and reverse horn? I think I know what it is, but need someone to clarify.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Choy Wei De said:


> I would prefer to have more bass, should I swap with a RAF or use a higher value on the dampers? And what is horn and reverse horn? I think I know what it is, but need someone to clarify.


Well, I didn't mention on RAB and GQ build. But if you interested, then

A reverse horn is a muffler
Horn is a horn

A series helmholtz resonator(bigger cavity loading in small tube) is a type of reverse horn which is used to take down peaks in treble region

Often called as mouth of horn.

Before loading something in horn, if the response is peaky, or uncontrollable, the mouth is used to tame down the peaks so the horn gives a linear raise in frequency.

Loudspeaker concept 

And I was applying tube physics and loudspeaker physics on BA(BA is technically a Armature in compression driver format, except of TIA drivers)

Note : Balanced Armature driver are all tweeter in open air, except for HODVTEC(that thing is midranger)


----------



## dhruvmeena96

single driver revelation

TEC = 10.2mH
RAB= 7.8mH

all driver having response in between these driver have inductance between these driver

HODVTEC is parallel dual, so it is low value

CI can be higher, but no driver will exceed 15mH and no driver will drop bellow 3mH

i think ED lies within 7mH to 11mH

what we need is real time impedance calculator and variable capacitor

Rz = Re(500Hz) x 1.25

so we know what resistance value is needed

and once we get to know the value of Cz

we can easily find the Inductance value of coil

Cz = Le/(Rz^2)


well even MATLAB can do it, but i would have to have proper impedance value per Frequency

@ForceMajeure @IvanNOON


----------



## kmmm

Sorry for interupting. My first CIEMs. With GV drivers. Question about dampers and tube length. Could anyone confirm this:

1500A damper (for tweeter) tube 14mm
3300A damper (for woofer) tube 20mm

(Dampers inserted halfway.)


----------



## dhruvmeena96

kmmm said:


> Sorry for interupting. My first CIEMs. With GV drivers. Question about dampers and tube length. Could anyone confirm this:
> 
> 1500A damper (for tweeter) tube 14mm
> 3300A damper (for woofer) tube 20mm
> ...


https://www.instructables.com/id/Make-Custom-in-Ear-Monitors-DIY-CIEM/

same spec as yours, inspired from here
the most universal tuning you can get


----------



## CoiL

@dhruvmeena96 , just so that You know (and some other fellows I know here), I`m unsubscribing from this thread also because of KP being so good for my gear & ears.
If You get tired of messing with DIY and modding IEMs, I recommend to get KP, they are tuned perfectly imho and don`t need any modding for SQ.


----------



## imsurokim

dhruvmeena96 said:


> https://www.instructables.com/id/Make-Custom-in-Ear-Monitors-DIY-CIEM/
> 
> same spec as yours, inspired from here
> the most universal tuning you can get



Will white on twitter and red on the woofer for the drivers from westone w3 will be too harsh? I was looking at Definitive DIY Guide and for CI and TWFKs. It was recommanded no filter on TWFK and RED on CI. I didn't want it to be too harsh on highs so I decided to put white on TWFK. What do you think about this setup? I just want to utilize my old w3 before I buy driver and try different configuration.

Thanks


----------



## imsurokim

Shilohsjustice said:


> We will start with dipping your silicone impressions in wax, again this gives a nice finish that makes the post processing extremely easy.
> 
> A couple things about wax dipping, make sure the temperature of the wax is between 125 degrees Fahrenheit (51.6 degrees Celsius) and 132 degrees Fahrenheit (55.5 degrees Celsius), any cooler than that and the dip will be clumpy and thick and any hotter than that the wax will be too hot and thin.
> 
> ...




Quick question on this Gelatin mix. I got knox gelatin from Target and it seems like 4 packets are equal to 1oz, so each packet is 0.25oz. Do I still use 4 packets or 16 of them?


----------



## PinoNL

CoiL said:


> @dhruvmeena96 , just so that You know (and some other fellows I know here), I`m unsubscribing from this thread also because of KP being so good for my gear & ears.
> If You get tired of messing with DIY and modding IEMs, I recommend to get KP, they are tuned perfectly imho and don`t need any modding for SQ.



KP?


----------



## CoiL

PinoNL said:


> KP?


KP = Moondrop Kanas Pro

Sorry for OT.


----------



## PinoNL

CoiL said:


> KP = Moondrop Kanas Pro
> 
> Sorry for OT.



Okay. Unfortunately I don’t like the polished look very much.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

imsurokim said:


> Quick question on this Gelatin mix. I got knox gelatin from Target and it seems like 4 packets are equal to 1oz, so each packet is 0.25oz. Do I still use 4 packets or 16 of them?



Just the 4packs


----------



## imsurokim

Shilohsjustice said:


> Just the 4packs



Thanks. Just new to DIY and head-fi forum. It seems like you are the master of DIY ciems. Please wish me a luck. I am getting my first ear impression today and put bunch of part ordered. Will try to make negative investment today and start making shells when I get Fotoplast in hand.


----------



## ForceMajeure

@dhruvmeena96 if you are looking for a cheap way to have horn you could get the KZ ED9.
afaik they used to have a swap able metal nozzle with a horn shape. not sure about the inside diameter but with a bit of luck it should be ~2.1-2.5mm


----------



## imsurokim

Just got my first impression from local audiologist. There’s some wrinkle but should be okay? I guess.


----------



## eunice

They look good.


----------



## imsurokim (Feb 8, 2019)

eunice said:


> They look good.



Just looking it little closely. Is my right side canal too short? I see it is quite a bit shorter than right side


----------



## ForceMajeure

that right side is not good unfortunately
you'll need to get it redone


----------



## eunice

You can clearly see the second bend from one angle. You need to cut just after the second bend 90° to the ear canal after the second bend. It looks like you just can do that. 

Even if not, losing a little here is not going to be a big difference in sound. And don't worry, my ear canals are different length too.

Then you have to cut straight down.

If you're not sure, put the impressions in your ear and check before you cut. But cut ear canal first, otherwise putting them into your ears might be uncomfortable.


----------



## imsurokim

ForceMajeure said:


> that right side is not good unfortunately
> you'll need to get it redone


That's what I am thinking.



eunice said:


> You can clearly see the second bend from one angle. You need to cut just after the second bend 90° to the ear canal after the second bend. It looks like you just can do that.
> 
> Even if not, losing a little here is not going to be a big difference in sound. And don't worry, my ear canals are different length too.
> 
> ...



It feels like I am missing a millimeter. It fits comfortably without cutting any from ear canal. It's more like it was cut 110 deg from second bend instead of 90 deg.


----------



## ForceMajeure (Feb 8, 2019)

he could go for a very shallow fit but he'll have to match the other side as well perfectly and make sure his tubing will match as well. if he doesn't things will not sound balanced.

or maybe build up a bit of length up to the 2nd bend at least getting close.

since he has no experience doing this I doubt he'll be able to go the 2nd route

after trimming them he'll have not much to work with. waxing them will give him a few precious millimeters he could work with though but he'll still have to make sure the other side will match

unfortunately the dam wasn't pushed all the way by the audiologist, he could have asked for a 2nd take on the spot but I guess he wouldn't be able to know


----------



## eunice

imsurokim said:


> It feels like I am missing a millimeter. It fits comfortably without cutting any from ear canal. It's more like it was cut 110 deg from second bend instead of 90 deg.


If you can get them redone, then do that. I have added some material to my impressions and it worked out, but if it doesn't work out it will cost you a lot of time.


----------



## eunice

ForceMajeure said:


> or maybe build up a bit of length up to the 2nd bend at least getting close.



That's what I did with my first impressions, but I had impression material at hand and with that it was easy to do. Without impression material, no idea. Maybe by manually building up wax with a brush. After all it only needs a few millimeters.

And once you have one pair that fits, you can always copy that.


----------



## imsurokim

ForceMajeure said:


> he could go for a very shallow fit but he'll have to match the other side as well perfectly and make sure his tubing will match as well. if he doesn't things will not sound balanced.
> 
> or maybe build up a bit of length up to the 2nd bend at least getting close.
> 
> ...



I got another appoint with audiologist next Tuesday. It seems like I might save it by adding little bit at the end. It fits perfect now, but cut it straight and sanding it will make it too short I guess. It's my first time so I don't want to take a risk. 



eunice said:


> If you can get them redone, then do that. I have added some material to my impressions and it worked out, but if it doesn't work out it will cost you a lot of time.



Just got another appointment. What material did you add to your impression? It feels like I can just super glue some material and sand it and try on my ear over the weekend.


----------



## eunice (Feb 8, 2019)

imsurokim said:


> What material did you add to your impression? It feels like I can just super glue some material and sand it and try on my ear over the weekend.


I used impression material, something very similar to what my audiologist used. I have fixed other impressions with it too. Fixing the outside area where the faceplate goes is often necessary. The ear canal I have only fixed for my own impressions. I would be very careful with super glue though, please don't stick it into your ear. I am not a careful person, but that is very dangerous. If the glue is not 100% cured, it could easily stick and you'll rip out some skin.

If you need to use super glue then add the material to your impression by eye, wax it, build your shells and try the shells on. You will be able to add material to your shell too (with a syringe and scorpion light) or remove material by sanding. That's much safer than sticking super glue into your ear.


----------



## imsurokim

eunice said:


> I used impression material, something very similar to what my audiologist used. I have fixed other impressions with it too. Fixing the outside area where the faceplate goes is often necessary. The ear canal I have only fixed for my own impressions. I would be very careful with super glue though, please don't stick it into your ear. I am not a careful person, but that is very dangerous. If the glue is not 100% cured, it could easily stick and you'll rip out some skin.
> 
> If you need to use super glue then add the material to your impression by eye, wax it, build your shells and try the shells on. You will be able to add material to your shell too (with a syringe and scorpion light) or remove material by sanding. That's much safer than sticking super glue into your ear.


Thanks for the advice. It might be just easier getting mold again. I will try to save my right ear impression over the weekend, but not sure how it will come. I will cut and sand left side impression and trying to match that length to right ear impression.


----------



## eunice

In my experience, removing some material around the second bend (I do that for easier insertion) does not really change the sound. There is a lot of things in a CIEM where even miniscule changes dramatically alter the sound. But removing material at the tip is not really one of them. 

You do need to make sure no tube will point to any wall of your inner ear though, if the tube gets in contact with skin the sound might get muffled. That’s why your tubes should point in the direction of the ear canal after the second bend. 

Just try it and tinker around. Once you have done your first build, it will all become a lot less scary.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Xymordos said:


> I remember reading somewhere that wiring them in series will help smooth out some peaks due to impedance change, not sure if that's exactly how it works.


well, i am posting to a very old question

But wiring in series doesn't help in smoothing of peak.
What it does is that it lower the power per each driver. Plus giving more surface area and mass of diaphragm, shifts the impedance peak in lower freq.
It does one very bad thing, Rising impedance becomes more steep.

Parallel arrangement lower impedance, but graph remain the same. Just slight more damping on rising impedance

what i do

i take 4 driver.
First wire them in series pair

and then wire them parallel


This distribute load by 25% and keeps 1/2V and 1/2A per driver.
reduction on voltage, reduces the impedance peak and reduction in ampere let them run lower than maximum limit.

due to 1/2 A, the space inside BA(above the diaphragm) becomes 2x more reactive and 1/2 more resistive(The BA is pushing less, so reverse effect is less)

This arrangement makes 4BA produce the sound of 1BA nearby.

Voice coil error rate and Impedance error rate also decreases up to 3%

and due to 4xRAB, surface area increases 4x times for same signal on 1/4th power

that means lower distortion and better bass extension


I did this with Quad RAB + zobel circuit + Expansion chamber and tube(no horn)

The treble was good(sweet roll off)
the mids were amazing
and the bass was legendary(tight and never ending extension)

i was shocked myself that a 4xRAB setup can go this low(Lower than dynamic driver, way lower.....something like LCD4)


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Feb 9, 2019)

*"*Some ceramic caps (particularly MLCC SMT parts) can actually generate voltage across their terminals when subjected to physical stress.
The ceramic EIA Class 2 dielectrics used in high-K capacitors ("Z5U" and "X7R") are piezoelectric and directly transform mechanical vibration into a voltage in exactly the same way as a ceramic or piezoelectric microphone.[2] Film capacitors using soft (mechanically compliant) dielectric materials can also be microphonic due to vibrational energy physically moving the plates of the capacitor. Likewise, variable capacitors using air as a dielectric are vulnerable to vibrations moving the plates. Capacitors using glass as the dielectric, while quite expensive, can be made to be essentially nonmicrophonic.*"
*
well, this is something new to me when i was searching for capacitor

plus i searched for AVX NOJ/NOS nobium Oxide SMD cap and deviation of 20%

Electrolytic are not commonly used in crossover as a general rule of thumb, otherwise ELNA SILMIC II 4.7uF 50v can be fitted in an IEM shell with its leg trimmed of

Can somebody tell me a good capacitor


Resistor would be Rhopoint GG102A wire-wound squaristor
Why did i went with a wire-wound. 

Reason 1
One of the best resistor in market. Technically the best resistor in audio purposes.
in custom resistor option
The A model has mind boggling Tolerance of  0.01% 

Reason 2
Since it is a wire-wound, it will have inductive value(minimal) to ever so slightly lower the compliance of voice coil, so that zobel can act as a stiffener for the acoustic suspension, Helping in increasing the speed of transient response slightly at impedance peak


----------



## eunice

Reliability issues again: I built several pairs with knowles GV drivers, all of them broke after a few weeks of use. Out of 6 GV (3 pairs) I bought only two are still working. 

It’s always the bass that breaks. On 3 of them, the bass driver just went silent, one of them the bass started to make a snaring sound. 

I use them with open vents. 

What could be the problem, I‘m like burning money? Did any of you use the knowles GV without issues over a longer period of time?


----------



## Senor CIEM

eunice said:


> Reliability issues again: I built several pairs with knowles GV drivers, all of them broke after a few weeks of use. Out of 6 GV (3 pairs) I bought only two are still working.
> 
> It’s always the bass that breaks. On 3 of them, the bass driver just went silent, one of them the bass started to make a snaring sound.
> 
> ...



Noticed the same problem with my builds. Lows starting to snare and die after a few weeks. What „glue“ do you use for the tubes? Also use it with vents open, but only tape side.


----------



## eunice

First I used dreve sk47 silicon glue. Then I switched to loctite super glue and then cover with silicon glue. The silicon glue is not stick enough. 

Still, always the same problem. I‘m kind of devastated, as I started to do ciems for friends and family and they all break. First I thought it was me dropping them, or the fiio lightning cable and so on. But that can’t be, as they all break. 

The GV sound so nice.


----------



## eunice

The crazy thing is, sometimes the bass starts working again...
So it must be an electronics issue?


----------



## imsurokim

How do these look?


----------



## eunice

The base looks perfect. The end of the ear canal on the right one still seems to not have the correct angle, you will have to manually account for that. 

As a tip: You will have to round the edges where you cut the ear canal, for easier insertion. But you don’t need to do it right now, better sand the edges of your first shell after you inserted the tubing - you will see how much space you need for the tubing.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Feb 9, 2019)

eunice said:


> Reliability issues again: I built several pairs with knowles GV drivers, all of them broke after a few weeks of use. Out of 6 GV (3 pairs) I bought only two are still working.
> 
> It’s always the bass that breaks. On 3 of them, the bass driver just went silent, one of them the bass started to make a snaring sound.
> 
> ...





Senor CIEM said:


> Noticed the same problem with my builds. Lows starting to snare and die after a few weeks. What „glue“ do you use for the tubes? Also use it with vents open, but only tape side.





eunice said:


> The crazy thing is, sometimes the bass starts working again...
> So it must be an electronics issue?



Its better you get them as different driver, understand the crossover of GV
and then make it yourself

This way, you can use good quality caps and resistor, and debug them as you want

The only fixed driver i support is GQ, SWFK, TWFK, DWFK

the driver with single nozzle
my experience with them was way better than
GV, GK, HE versions

i too broke one GV

Bass rattling problems

it happens when the driver is pressurized due to something
it can be damper, it can be uncontrolled driver electrical damping

it can be anything

And this always happen when signal is too powerful and driver aint that tight in some factors

the pressurized air inside BA hits the diaphragm, making it bend unwanted, causing it to rattle

Compression Horn speaker also has this issue


----------



## dhruvmeena96

@Furco @Shilohsjustice @piotrus-g 

i need 4.7uF cap

is this good

Its a Nobiom oxide cap


----------



## eunice

The bass of the GV is HODVTEC (I think), so these issue (pressurizing, overpowering) should also happen with a single hodvtec?


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Feb 9, 2019)

eunice said:


> The bass of the GV is HODVTEC (I think), so these issue (pressurizing, overpowering) should also happen with a single hodvtec?


Thats why you can dampen it individually with L pad and Z circuit(You know, what Z circuit i am talking.....Zobel....knowles provide proper data for HODVTEC and RAB/RAF)

Then you can create proper low pass, which will take the over bursting pressure the HODVTEC is creating.

If calculation goes correct by my side, it can go deeper than planars and dynamics while playing safe but at cost of 8dB attenuation and 5dB return loss

but instead of TWFK, you have to use DWFK

it would be HODVTEC and DWFK, damper on DWFK(But if you dont want dampers, i can help you)
You would have to design the crossover

and i can eliminate the dampers from design now


----------



## imsurokim

How do these look?



eunice said:


> The base looks perfect. The end of the ear canal on the right one still seems to not have the correct angle, you will have to manually account for that.
> 
> As a tip: You will have to round the edges where you cut the ear canal, for easier insertion. But you don’t need to do it right now, better sand the edges of your first shell after you inserted the tubing - you will see how much space you need for the tubing.


Right ine meaning right one on pic or right ear piece? Sorry I screw up pics. Right ear piece is on left on pics which still has piece of red blocker.


----------



## eunice

imsurokim said:


> Right ear piece is on left on pics which still has piece of red blocker.


I meant the right earpiece, the one with the red foam at the tip.


----------



## imsurokim

Yeah. I would either cut left ear piece to match right one or build some on top of ear tip. I am still waiting for fotoplast to come. Since it has shorter ear canal it fits more comfortable in the ear


----------



## Ivan TT

dhruvmeena96 said:


> i was shocked myself that a 4xRAB setup can go this low(Lower than dynamic driver, way lower.....something like LCD4)


Changed my 4 driver RAB from all series to 2x series paralleled, bass port cloth removed.
This makes it sit better with the output stage of my DAP utilising OPA1622 (9V rails may not have been providing enough voltage swing for series connection, but 1622 has really good output current and is designed with 32Ohm earphones in mind).
The bass is deep, mids are fullbodied, highs are silky (but not too hot, just as I like it).
Will try Zobel later time permitting, the plan is to use breadboard and trimpots allowing for easy adjustment of values (no offence @dhruvmeena96 but in my experience practical outcome is often not what calculations suggest it will be, but I really hope that this will not be the case this time).


----------



## Lucas Taboada

eunice said:


> First I used dreve sk47 silicon glue. Then I switched to loctite super glue and then cover with silicon glue. The silicon glue is not stick enough.
> 
> Still, always the same problem. I‘m kind of devastated, as I started to do ciems for friends and family and they all break. First I thought it was me dropping them, or the fiio lightning cable and so on. But that can’t be, as they all break.
> 
> The GV sound so nice.



You are using the Loctite 495? As I said before, I'm experiencing "flumes" with that glue in closed ambients (gluing faceplates). And yesterday I glued tubes to some drivers and put in a ziplock , today the drivers had a lot of white stuff.. It's really weird because this glue wasn't supposed to cause this. In your case, could be the glue that is killing the driver? I don't know... I have some GVs here and I'm scared of assembling them now


----------



## Bassiklee

When I assemble "motors"(driver assemblies with tubes, dampers,  etc), I use loctite 495, but VERY sparingly.  One drop on a plastic bag,  then use a toothpick to put a tiny bit of it on to hold the tubes on the drivers.  I pre-assemble the tubes,  and let that glue gas off before I introduce the drivers.  I even leave the tape on the vents on the HODVTEC side of the GV until the glue has long since gassed off.  Assembled 22 of them today.


----------



## Lucas Taboada (Feb 9, 2019)

Bassiklee said:


> When I assemble "motors"(driver assemblies with tubes, dampers,  etc), I use loctite 495, but VERY sparingly.  One drop on a plastic bag,  then use a toothpick to put a tiny bit of it on to hold the tubes on the drivers.  I pre-assemble the tubes,  and let that glue gas off before I introduce the drivers.  I even leave the tape on the vents on the HODVTEC side of the GV until the glue has long since gassed off.  Assembled 22 of them today.



I see, so Loctite 495 maybe cause this in closed situations only and not every time like normal superglues? If I let it gas off for some time before storing in a ziplock it will be ok I guess?

SR driver with the white flume 



What type of tubes do you guys use in the GV by the way? 1 or 2mm inner diameter? I'm a bit worried about fitting two 2mm ID tubes in the canal. Using 1mm ID will cut too much HF?


----------



## Bassiklee

Gassing off,  yes.  What I do is put down some parchment paper,  and lay the motors out on that for a few hours.  Nothing sticks to parchment.  

Tubes:  I start with 1mm.....   Secret recipe.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Feb 9, 2019)

Ivan TT said:


> Changed my 4 driver RAB from all series to 2x series paralleled, bass port cloth removed.
> This makes it sit better with the output stage of my DAP utilising OPA1622 (9V rails may not have been providing enough voltage swing for series connection, but 1622 has really good output current and is designed with 32Ohm earphones in mind).
> The bass is deep, mids are fullbodied, highs are silky (but not too hot, just as I like it).
> Will try Zobel later time permitting, the plan is to use breadboard and trimpots allowing for easy adjustment of values (no offence @dhruvmeena96 but in my experience practical outcome is often not what calculations suggest it will be, but I really hope that this will not be the case this time).


Zobel will dampen the driver treble, but will also load the amp more properly, so amp side distortion figure drops(pure resistive and since driver is working less on treble part(which is easy to get wrong on figures due to high speed movement) clears up distortion figures in mids and treble

The 1kHz distortion noted by @Rabid86 was due to the usage of different driver and the circuit for RAB. Damping factor became to high and due to high level reduction of treble which made mids seem to look more distorted.




Add a series resistance of 18~33 ohm, to underdamp the circuit and increase voice coil resistance.

This will get the setup to 40~55ohms, but this will technically dampen the mid bass and increase treble while attenuating slightly. 

Etymotic uses this method to increase treble and lower bass.

Well, I think, you should create a breadboard zobel and variable series resistor(with values) with 2x3.5mm female jack and switch.

If I explain zobel, the cap decide the low pass frequency for whereas the resistor decides the way it will slope

Values are between Re(500Hz for BA) and Re x 1.25 for the taste point of view


By the way, the bass was deep, mids were fullbodied and highs were silky was the review of series parallel or the whole series?


----------



## eunice

Lucas Taboada said:


> What type of tubes do you guys use in the GV by the way? 1 or 2mm inner diameter?


I use a very soft 1mmID 2mmOD at the driver (length approx 2mm) . Then 2mmID and 3mm OD through the canal. 

I have the impression it reduces some resonances if I do it like that.

Regarding glue: what to use then? I also have UHU which is better for gluing wood but worse for gluing the tube to the drivers. UHU also creates the white flume sometimes. I tried SK47 silicone glue which doesn’t create any flumes but also is not sticky enough to attach the tubes.


----------



## eunice

Bassiklee said:


> Assembled 22 of them today.



Wow. Let us know if any of them fail after some days of use.


----------



## Bassiklee

Are you using any dampers? 


I use loctite on the tubes/driver connection,  no issues. As for face plates,  mostly five minute epoxy.


----------



## Bassiklee

eunice said:


> Wow. Let us know if any of them fail after some days of use.



Let's hope they don't!!  I've gone thru at least 100 GV drivers.  I've had one failure.  One.  That's acceptable.  That very well may have been user error/abuse, but I replaced it anyway.


----------



## Julienstanford

How is everyone joining two or more drivers/acoustical to one tube?  

I join two 1.5 tubes together in a larger tube then step-down to 1.5 tubing. I can only fit three 1.5 tubes out all the IEMs I’ve bought.


----------



## eunice

Bassiklee said:


> Are you using any dampers?


Yes. I make the tubes as short as possible (in my ears ~12mm is enough) both ears same length though. And at the tip of the tubes I insert the dampers, to exchange after the IEM is assembled. Best sound for me is yellow on HODVTEC and red on TWFK.


----------



## eunice

Julienstanford said:


> How is everyone joining two or more drivers/acoustical to one tube?


I bought a tool to stretch the opening of a tube, that way you can fit two drivers in one 2mm ID tube. 
This question has been asked multiple times in this thread with no clear answer. Search for y-tubing in this thread. 
I will ask a friend to 3D print a Y adapter for me, he also built an adapter for my 2cc coupler which works very good.


----------



## eunice

Bassiklee said:


> I've gone thru at least 100 GV drivers. I've had one failure. One. That's acceptable. That very well may have been user error/abuse, but I replaced it anyway.


Thank you. 1% sounds absolutely acceptable. I will try to follow your advice with the handling of the glue. 

Do you build ciems or universals?


----------



## Julienstanford

eunice said:


> I bought a tool to stretch the opening of a tube, .



I use a soldering iron on low to warm the tubing, then take a chopstick and push it in the tubing until it cools. I repeat the stretching if needed or for three tubes. I use glue to affix the 1.5 tubes (obviously). Then the 1.5 tubing OD fist perfectly inside that larger tubing. So it’s ok but time consuming and I worry about long term use.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Julienstanford said:


> I use a soldering iron on low to warm the tubing, then take a chopstick and push it in the tubing until it cools. I repeat the stretching if needed or for three tubes. I use glue to affix the 1.5 tubes (obviously). Then the 1.5 tubing OD fist perfectly inside that larger tubing. So it’s ok but time consuming and I worry about long term use.


I use heat gun at slow speed

Use tweezers to expand the tube slowly while rotating it.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Feb 10, 2019)

My flagship



Will start working on this soon

Collecting all the design I can come with
Already simulated on comsol

This is my top of line project

But now I have to create custom shell and PCB with SMD components.(I mean huge shell with PCB here and there)


SMD inductor is also available with the value I have given in there.

OK what did I tried to do

HODVTEC

acting as a true state of art subwoofer(inspired by @piotrus-g scary crossover's CI). The zobel circuit in this driver kills all HF present. The L-pad eats up voltage and drops driver by 10dB, so impedance is now mostly flat with no HF or any sort of artifact peak coming from 0dB in graph.

Now the 72Hz crossover acts as a true low pass.

RAB-32063 and SWFK

I used the driver due to better impedance compared to vented counterpart. This driver also has lower distortion. Since HODVTEC was handling Bass, this RAB in series parallel arrangement with zobel will act as a perfect midranger.

SWFK is one of my favourite driver due to its figures. Harshness can be controlled by any measures but technicality it throws is just sheer enjoyment to work on with.

SWFK is crossed at 11kHz by single capacitor.

Now, the circuit down there is impedance voltage eater. I saw that on speaker builds

This is actually better than series notch as it doesn't require the factors and doesn't even need Le.

This is an impedance voltage divider.

This will fix the resonant peak of RAB and SWFK(the tiny one) with SWFK rising impedance at the same time, plus correcting speaker phase issues.

11SMD components
8driver
2Bass + 4mids + 2high

The mid ranger will require @Ivan TT reason for mid RAB.
No dampers for this

The problems is length of tubing for now


Plus if somebody wants to remove HODVTEC from equation

Just get RAB 32257 and its zobel
4.6uF and 41.25ohm

And remove the peak notcher from below


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Can somebody tell me the crossover of Knowles GQ with the drivers name inside it.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Feb 10, 2019)

@Ivan TT @IvanNOON @Rabid86
Ivan tt, actually

I did some simulation about series driver concept of yours. You were right about a magical sound.
I was just keeping one impedance factor in mind and not inductance of driver.

Well, I got to this very interesting junction.
Putting driver in series, will not only double the Impedance (z) but also inductance

So when RAB 32257x2 is in series, at 500Hz we have 66ohm impedance and 15.6uH inductance.

This leads impedance graph going flat till 11kHz compared to single RAB.

But that 11kHz will be straight wall compared to steep cliff from 5kHz.

So impedance will be flat till 11kHz which means no phase shift, smoother treble and amazing clarity.

On 4xRAB, things get even more flat. The wall becomes a wall stop at 16kHz. Means no reproduction after 17kHz. The impedance rise nearly becomes full stop(imagine near infinite impedance). Well music details stop at 14kHz, as some people on other thread say, but microphone noises and other factor begin after that. So no air hiss, sound on your setup was complete black(if I am correct??). 

The impedance end point will get sudden peak at that point and will drop dead. Rising impedance is what creates variable peaking.

But series driver will make resonant hump more peakier too.

192ohms 3kHz is way to high for amp to handle properly, making the phase dip apparent. It can be a 90degree phase shift. That's why I suggested you series parallel.

OK that was mentioned by JBL acoustics in 1982 about series driver fixing the impedance. Now I get it.

4xRAB in series is not recommended if HF extension is in mind and 2xRAB is good enough for series.

Parallel series arrangement will keep the 2x series impedance structure at 11kHz but the impedance wall becomes a cliff again, due to voltage division per driver. The amp thinks it is a single driver with 33ohm and 7.8mH at 500Hz but actually it is two parallel with 66ohm and 15.6mH at 500Hz.

Paralleling driver also helps in flattening of resonant peak due to same factors.

Full range is so fun to play with. Easier than crossover for  understanding.


----------



## cyph3r

can anyone advise how to accurately measure a BA driver impedance (circuit setup, measurement instruments etc?)


----------



## Lucas Taboada

eunice said:


> I use a very soft 1mmID 2mmOD at the driver (length approx 2mm) . Then 2mmID and 3mm OD through the canal.
> 
> I have the impression it reduces some resonances if I do it like that.
> 
> Regarding glue: what to use then? I also have UHU which is better for gluing wood but worse for gluing the tube to the drivers. UHU also creates the white flume sometimes. I tried SK47 silicone glue which doesn’t create any flumes but also is not sticky enough to attach the tubes.



I will try the method that Bassiklee told us, besides Loctite I believe some people use Epoxi, so that will be my next try if needed.
Weird that SK47 doesn't work properly, and good to know because a local store here recommends this product for gluing tubes from what I've read.

Thanks for the tubes infos by the way!!


----------



## dhruvmeena96

cyph3r said:


> can anyone advise how to accurately measure a BA driver impedance (circuit setup, measurement instruments etc?)


Well Knowles consumer paper has the impedance data. I can send that for you

If you really want to measure

Ask @ForceMajeure


----------



## imsurokim

@dhruvmeena96 Is it usally true that higher ohm damper put on woofer side makes more thump and lower ohm damper put on tweeter side gives more bright highs?
For GV, a lot of people recommend to use green on tweeter, and red or orange on woofer. (from Here). I am wondering if Brown instead of Green and Orange will have more V-shaped sound. Or is there any reason why people usually put greens on tweeter?

Also I have driver from W3 that I am currently building. I am thinking about putting white damper on TWFKs and red damper on CI, Should it be okay?

Thanks


----------



## dhruvmeena96

imsurokim said:


> @dhruvmeena96 Is it usally true that higher ohm damper put on woofer side makes more thump and lower ohm damper put on tweeter side gives more bright highs?
> For GV, a lot of people recommend to use green on tweeter, and red or orange on woofer. (from Here). I am wondering if Brown instead of Green and Orange will have more V-shaped sound. Or is there any reason why people usually put greens on tweeter?
> 
> Also I have driver from W3 that I am currently building. I am thinking about putting white damper on TWFKs and red damper on CI, Should it be okay?
> ...


Hmmm.....
Well, 

Putting brown on woofer will let woofer cover more mid frequency, warming them up compared to orange or red.

Brown, if used near the driver will make damping factor less at specific range of frequency
Putting the damper near the driver makes less slope and away from driver make slope drop faster.

Value of damper is more of a frequency select.

I still can't help you with what specific frequency area is initial point for a damper to roll off but yup.

Just remember that damper of high value will make driver roll of early and the placement of damper decide the damping of slope.

I cannot tell you what will happen to sound as V shape or something....

Because dampers are never my forte.
They are evil for me

They pressurize the driver, making the impedance on ear side to be more peaky. Distortion can also rise if damper is placed to near the driver.

Reactive air resistance rises.

It is for me a quick fix and takes away a lot of detail in any spectrum.

And I never had good quality sound with dampers except for etymotic ER4 diy with green damper and 20ohm resistor


----------



## imsurokim

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Hmmm.....
> Well,
> 
> Putting brown on woofer will let woofer cover more mid frequency, warming them up compared to orange or red.
> ...



I was thinking butting brown on tweeter instead of green. I might just have to try it first and see how they sound before cover them up with faceplate I guess. I am new to whole DIY project, and don't even know how to read frequency graph accurately. I might just give it a try with what I have and see how they perform.

Thanks!


----------



## eunice

If you have the knowles damper tool, you can pull out and switch dampers after you closed your IEM and experiment as you wish. 

Even without damper tool that is possible, if you do not insert the dampers too deep. (Max 1mm without tool, with tool you can insert as deep as the tube is straight)


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Brown will be more sparkly and yes it can turn response to tweeter side v shape


----------



## imsurokim

eunice said:


> If you have the knowles damper tool, you can pull out and switch dampers after you closed your IEM and experiment as you wish.
> 
> Even without damper tool that is possible, if you do not insert the dampers too deep. (Max 1mm without tool, with tool you can insert as deep as the tube is straight)



Is this the tool you are talking about? I am buying one but it will take about a month to get here. Also I thought I should mount damper while tubing for driver something like this. But I guess you can mount them at the end of the tip to for more effect.


----------



## imsurokim

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Brown will be more sparkly and yes it can turn response to tweeter side v shape


 My first set up I will try with my old w3 drivers will be white on the TWFKs and red on the Woofer. May be locate it around 5~7mm away from driver. If it is too bright, I might just locate white damper at the end of the tip.


----------



## eunice

That is the correct tool. I always mount my dampers at the tip since I want to tune ‚by ear‘
Someone has to invent a flexible damper tool to get around the ear canal bends


----------



## ForceMajeure

cyph3r said:


> can anyone advise how to accurately measure a BA driver impedance (circuit setup, measurement instruments etc?)


 I posted about it here https://www.head-fi.org/threads/home-made-iems.430688/page-395#post-13225762

You need to use Limp (it comes with arta) and you have to build a "jig" more explanations in the link above


----------



## imsurokim

Do you guys have any idea which one is positive and which one is negative on this driver? Straight out from westone w3 with TFWK +CI set up


----------



## cyph3r

imsurokim said:


> Do you guys have any idea which one is positive and which one is negative on this driver? Straight out from westone w3 with TFWK +CI set up



where were the input cables attached on the crossover? Can you provide a better closeup of the crossover?


----------



## cyph3r

ForceMajeure said:


> I posted about it here https://www.head-fi.org/threads/home-made-iems.430688/page-395#post-13225762
> 
> You need to use Limp (it comes with arta) and you have to build a "jig" more explanations in the link above




Thanks! I'll try that....


----------



## imsurokim

cyph3r said:


> where were the input cables attached on the crossover? Can you provide a better closeup of the crossover?


I only had phone quality pics but here they are.


----------



## Bassiklee

Now that the wires have been removed,  not as easily.  Before that,  it would have been very easy.    I'd try to trace the circuit out and see what tends to suggest hot from not.


----------



## ThanosD (Feb 11, 2019)

imsurokim said:


> I only had phone quality pics but here they are.


Try to get a photo of the pcb from above, in a way that the traces on the pcb can be seen clearly. Maybe a flashlight lighting the underside of the pcb could help


----------



## eunice

I don't want to start the heated discussion, but polarity does not matter, as long as it's the same for both IEM. There are some diehards arguing that the kickdrum needs to start with a positive pressure, but I don't hear the difference. And I tried really hard.


----------



## imsurokim

eunice said:


> I don't want to start the heated discussion, but polarity does not matter, as long as it's the same for both IEM. There are some diehards arguing that the kickdrum needs to start with a positive pressure, but I don't hear the difference. And I tried really hard.


I will probably do that way. I am not sure which one goes which, but try left one on (-) and right one on (+).
Thanks,


----------



## dhruvmeena96

eunice said:


> I don't want to start the heated discussion, but polarity does not matter, as long as it's the same for both IEM. There are some diehards arguing that the kickdrum needs to start with a positive pressure, but I don't hear the difference. And I tried really hard.


If the tweeter is not vented, go for reverse polarity
Otherwise no no.
So, never reverse a Wolfe
You can reverse a tweeter

I have done this, so I am telling from experience


----------



## IvanNOON (Feb 11, 2019)

Does anybody know part# of these ported DTECs? Or maybe Sonion?


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Feb 11, 2019)

IvanNOON said:


> Does anybody know part# of these ported DTECs? Or maybe Sonion?


Sonion 38AJ007Mi/8a X 2

Once you get into to many builds

A Sonion and Knowles becomes obvious


You see the tab of soldering.

Knowles TAB are not that great looking compared to utterly sexy BA of Sonion (well Knowles do tweeter tech better, the SWFK....but still, Sonion looks sexy and sounds sexy too)


Knowles true back port are RAF and ED specific model


----------



## Bassiklee

Quite a few drivers in those shells.  What are they?


----------



## Bassiklee

Lucas Taboada said:


> I will try the method that Bassiklee told us, besides Loctite I believe some people use Epoxi, so that will be my next try if needed.
> Weird that SK47 doesn't work properly, and good to know because a local store here recommends this product for gluing tubes from what I've read.
> 
> Thanks for the tubes infos by the way!!




Since you're trying to avoid the bloom of CA,  I stuck some tubes on some drivers from the experimental driver graveyard tonight with Bondic.  Seems to work fine.  It's a little amber in color, but not terrible.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Bassiklee said:


> Quite a few drivers in those shells.  What are they?


Sonion
Sonion
And sonion

The tweeter is TWFK with WBFK top off


----------



## Bassiklee

I see that.  I meant the monitors themselves. That's what I was asking


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Feb 11, 2019)

Bassiklee said:


> I see that.  I meant the monitors themselves. That's what I was asking


We are spamming by the way.....lol
It is the A12tzar by 64audio

Woofer is Sonion 38AJ007Mi/8a x2(4 drivers)
Mid and bass Sonion 2800 x3(6driver)
Sonion 2300(2 drivers)

Well I dont know why this was in listings but still


Upper mids Knowles TWFK woofer detached
Highs Knowles TWFK tweeter blown off top(tia driver)


----------



## eunice

You can get Sonion 33AJ007i/9 from Ali, is that the same woofer? It’s quite expensive though.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

eunice said:


> You can get Sonion 33AJ007i/9 from Ali, is that the same woofer? It’s quite expensive though.


Ghxchamp and lunashop

That is not expensive....they are selling used part and in orders.

I just checked it


----------



## eunice

It’s twice the price of a hodvtec... is it worth it?


----------



## Ivan TT

eunice said:


> You can get Sonion 33AJ007i/9 from Ali, is that the same woofer? It’s quite expensive though.


Taobao, using forwarding agent.
Around $20 per driver.


dhruvmeena96 said:


> 38AJ007Mi/8a


Around $25


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Ivan TT said:


> Taobao, using forwarding agent.
> Around $20 per driver.
> 
> Around $25


Gimme some Sonion....
Plssssss
Imma need one

Just tell me how to get an agent

I need sonion 1723 accupass..
That driver is my love. Tried once and cannot get out of mind


----------



## DannyBouwhuis

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Gimme some Sonion....
> Plssssss
> Imma need one
> 
> ...



Basetao, it's a real pain in the ass though, browsing taobao sucks... And I dont even think they sell that driver on taobao, ive looked for it recently but could'nt find it


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Recent simulated spec

@Choy Wei De 
@Ivan TT
@IvanNOON 


Single RAB32063

Cz=4.95uF
Rz=38.125ohm resistor

Increase Rz to get more 2kHz peak and treble
Decrease Rz to get less 2kHz peak and treble

This is the golden number for damping a RAB32063 zobel circuit

Now comes tubing.

5mm(length) 3mm(diameter) ID=Near Driver
5mm(length) 2mm(diameter) ID=Middle ground
5mm(length) 4mm(diameter) ID=in Eartip nozzle

MATLAB data tells that it can reach 25kHz easily
Smooth sound

Damm flat impedance


I was wrong about shunting

The Zobel itself makes the EMF peak disappear( a small bump remains, but who cares). @IvanNOON I was wrong about 5kHz.

The C of 4.95uF in conjunction to RAB32063 crosses at 1.5kHz, which make the parallel resistor also affect the impedance of emf peak.

So now shunting will just make that small bump disappear and slightly better phase but loose volume.


----------



## cchitsun

Hi all 

May I ask what's the advantages in doubling or even tripling the same driver on each side? Are there any techniques involved or points noteworthy when doing it?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

cchitsun said:


> Hi all
> 
> May I ask what's the advantages in doubling or even tripling the same driver on each side? Are there any techniques involved or points noteworthy when doing it?


Quadrupling have advantages.
On series parallel arrangement, it will significantly increase surface area of diaphragm, will decrease load on driver by 4times
reduces distortion, increase transient speed


----------



## DannyBouwhuis

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Quadrupling have advantages.
> On series parallel arrangement, it will significantly increase surface area of diaphragm, will decrease load on driver by 4times
> reduces distortion, increase transient speed



Hey dhruvmeena,

I'm new to this forum but i've been lurking for a while now, im working on a pair of universals but i've got one problem, mids... For the lows i'm using a hodvtec with your 'true lowpass' design (zobel,lpad,lowpass), and i'm using a swfk as tweeter, highpass 10000hz.. I've got a dtec laying arround that i plan on using for mids, what do you recommend, lpad ? Nothing ? Reverse polarity ? 

I'm asking you because you really seem to know what your doing  

Thanks


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Feb 12, 2019)

DannyBouwhuis said:


> Hey dhruvmeena,
> 
> I'm new to this forum but i've been lurking for a while now, im working on a pair of universals but i've got one problem, mids... For the lows i'm using a hodvtec with your 'true lowpass' design (zobel,lpad,lowpass), and i'm using a swfk as tweeter, highpass 10000hz.. I've got a dtec laying arround that i plan on using for mids, what do you recommend, lpad ? Nothing ? Reverse polarity ?
> 
> ...


You wont be needing the invert polarity for DTEC
because the HODVTEC is already hard damped with L-pad in mine
But i recommend that you go on online calculators and check the L-pad value according to your attenuation
And also learn about crossover.
Zobel and L-pad HODVTEC can do till 900Hz and then roll of to zero on 8kHz in a straight line fashion, if we don't take tubing in consideration.

Ok, now lets talk about DTEC. DTEC are is sealed HODVTED and i dont think it will pair good, until or unless you are not going to dampen it with L-pad and zobel again for even lower value of dB to match the goodness of subwoofer HODVTEC

and in end you will have to cross SWFK which has to be crossed at nearby value of 6kHz, and also attenuate it to match the level of DTEC. plus it has to be near the ear nozzle or eartip place because the tube creates peak on SWFK.


i will try giving you a plan

@Shilohsjustice @ForceMajeure 

what will a Noble Savant with True Subbass driver sound like

i mean adding HODVTEC with 50Hz crossover lowpass, 2dB l-pad attenuation, zobel so that it doesnt effect the the savant soundsignature


----------



## imsurokim

My first wiring and tubing. First time soldering too so it’s not perfect but sounds comes out when I tested them. 

TWFK has white damper about 5mm apart and CI has red damper about 7mm away from driver nozzle. Getting my second impression done today and will try to build shells tonight.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

imsurokim said:


> My first wiring and tubing. First time soldering too so it’s not perfect but sounds comes out when I tested them.
> 
> TWFK has white damper about 5mm apart and CI has red damper about 7mm away from driver nozzle. Getting my second impression done today and will try to build shells tonight.


End the tubings in a bigger tube before it goes in the nozzle or ear guide on you earphone. It fixes some dual bore dip issues.


----------



## DannyBouwhuis (Feb 12, 2019)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> You wont be needing the invert polarity for DTEC
> because the HODVTEC is already hard damped with L-pad in mine
> But i recommend that you go on online calculators and check the L-pad value according to your attenuation
> And also learn about crossover.
> ...



So also I should also L pad the dtec, lower db than the hodvtec ofcourse. Hodvtec on your desigm is -10db ? So dtec should be -15 -20db ? And what should i use for the zobel on the dtec ? Havent worked with zobel before.. And swfk crossed at around 6khz ? Sorry for all the questions, still a noob but I'm slowly getting there


----------



## imsurokim

dhruvmeena96 said:


> End the tubings in a bigger tube before it goes in the nozzle or ear guide on you earphone. It fixes some dual bore dip issues.



I will probably add 3mm OD 2mm ID tube than. Thanks for advice. I hope I have place for two holes on the tip of ear phone. Or maybe I can merge two 2mm OD tubing to one 3mm OD tube and have only one hole.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Feb 12, 2019)

DannyBouwhuis said:


> So also I should also L pad the dtec, lower db than the hodvtec ofcourse. Hodvtec on your desigm is -10db ? So dtec should be -15 -20 ? And what should i use for the zobel on the dtec ? Havent worked with zobel before.. And dtec crossed at around 6khz ? Sorry for all the questions, still a noob but I'm slowly getting there


Zobel helps in rising impedance or it helps easy loading on amp and predictable crossover. SWFK is nasty in spikes and if DTEC adds some more spikes to it, it will go on untolerable level. reversing polarity can create phase issues and needs a lot of experience.

Zobel will perfect the Tan(Theta) in phase to impedance ratio, providing amp constant load and ears of your less pressure on same level of dB

But a zobel kills the high of driver.

i really dont know where SWFK should be crossed, i just estimated and i would need measurements of just DTEC and HODVTEC for proper suggestion

PM


imsurokim said:


> I will probably add 3mm OD 2mm ID tube than. Thanks for advice. I hope I have place for two holes on the tip of ear phone. Or maybe I can merge two 2mm OD tubing to one 3mm OD tube and have only one hole.


Do it 4mm instead of 3mm. it helps the mixing before hand rather separating it in ear.


ask me single driver and multiple fullrange and i would be glad to answer that(Experience from hearing aid making and some good software access)

becasue i am also learning crossover and tubing


----------



## cchitsun

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Quadrupling have advantages.
> On series parallel arrangement, it will significantly increase surface area of diaphragm, will decrease load on driver by 4times
> reduces distortion, increase transient speed


Thanks for your reply. Would you please further share with us how this arrangement is done? Is it simply connecting both by wiring the negative terminal of one to the positive terminal of the other?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

and try ED29689 with 22ohm rather than 20ohms on noble Savant diy


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Feb 12, 2019)

cchitsun said:


> Thanks for your reply. Would you please further share with us how this arrangement is done? Is it simply connecting both by wiring the negative terminal of one to the positive terminal of the other?


series is done when + is connected to - of other
parallel is done when + is connected to + of other


lets take example of RAB

take 2 drivers and wire them in series
do it with other 2 drivers

then wire them parallel


we are spamming, pm me....lol


----------



## imsurokim

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Do it 4mm instead of 3mm. it helps the mixing before hand rather separating it in ear.



I don't have 4mm tube in hand. I will stop by homedepot today and see if I can get one..


----------



## jbr1971

I was having a pretty good day until I came home to this...



 

My girlfriends dogs need to make themselves scarce for an extended period of time.

Leaving on vacation next week with no time or tools to rebuild. Not a happy camper to say the least.


----------



## eunice

Oh no... at least you know how to make sure it never ever happens again...


----------



## imsurokim

Ouch... That doesn’t look good  




I just manage to get my second impression for right ear. He made sure it goes deep this time.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

jbr1971 said:


> I was having a pretty good day until I came home to this...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just check the drivers are working, right.

The only thing I hate dogs for.

They chewed on my cable.

Even puppies nowadays are smarter than dog


----------



## Lucas Taboada

What's the best and cheapest way to measure the CIEM frequency and get good results? There's any product or DIY project that I can buy or build? sorry if this has already been said here, didn't find in the search.

I want one mainly for help me tuning.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Lucas Taboada said:


> What's the best and cheapest way to measure the CIEM frequency and get good results? There's any product or DIY project that I can buy or build? sorry if this has already been said here, didn't find in the search.
> 
> I want one mainly for help me tuning.


Dayton audio iMM-6 -22$

Tubing for earsleeve but ear canal length 32mm or 28mm(in between)

LIMP
ARTA
Ears app

These are for measurement


----------



## Squirg

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Dayton audio iMM-6 -22$
> 
> Tubing for earsleeve but ear canal length 32mm or 28mm(in between)
> 
> ...



What is the Ears app?!  Not familiar with this one.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Feb 12, 2019)

Squirg said:


> What is the Ears app?!  Not familiar with this one.


Leave Ears app
Its paid

FFT Plot – Real Time Sound Frequency Analyzer by ONYX App

Use this


Android guys

Use spectroid


----------



## Lucas Taboada

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Dayton audio iMM-6 -22$
> 
> Tubing for earsleeve but ear canal length 32mm or 28mm(in between)
> 
> ...



Thanks for answering!

Great price! But I don't like much the idea of using my phone, I prefer measuring directly to a computer, there's any other option?

I have a great measuring mic from Sonarworks (for measuring studio rooms), it can be used for this purpose?


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Feb 12, 2019)

Lucas Taboada said:


> Thanks for answering!
> 
> Great price! But I don't like much the idea of using my phone, I prefer measuring directly to a computer, there's any other option?
> 
> I have a great measuring mic from Sonarworks (for measuring studio rooms), it can be used for this purpose?


LIMP and ARTA are on PC bro

well any experience person can help me decide a value of parallel capacitor on Noble Savant build so that i can select the 200Hz

i would like to create a parallel CR circuit, so i can flatten impedance a little bit and tame things and make FR a little smoother overall with high octave air

this filter comes between socket and driver arrangement.

i am trying but cant get the value right

because i cannot get on the overall impedance value correct

Noble Savant has rising impedance, and a big one, if we zoom it
but on normal impedance scale(comparing to Knowles RAF), its pretty good and linear

only 38ohms

So if we create CR circuit, damping would be slight 1dB to 2dB on every peak while cleaning up respone and 90degree phase shift at 20kHz will be relieved

so we can get slightly more extension while smoother response and more LF presence(Subbass), helping in creating depth info.

More easy on source and ears


and i am not trying to create a zobel. i am trying to create something between total flat impedance and stock impedance, because total flat impedance will damp HF more than what we need and will destroy what Savant is.

i need bass response between Noble X and savant
midrange to be same
2kHz peak be slightly damped
10kHz peak more natural
and linear phase


----------



## eunice (Feb 13, 2019)

My measuring setup: I use miniDSP UMIK-1 microphone, it fits perfectly into 12mm ID PVC tube from a garden shop. Calculated the length of the tube for 2ccm volume. Then I let a friend 3D print a cap with conical holes for the tubes.

Works like a charm. I use roomeqwizard (mac user here )

Other mics work well too.


----------



## imsurokim

Made my negative impression yesterday, but didn't work well. I diy'ed my container, but had rough surface on the bottom so it flooded out to bowl. It firmed perfect after putting it in fridge, but when I take it out from bowl, everything ripped a part. I guess I needed little more glycerin to make it firmer and less sticky to bowl. Going to give another shot tonight and see if I can find better container since my order from Aliexpress will take about a month to come to my house.


----------



## Bassiklee

Before I finally bought the investment cups,  I used these.  Just cut the bottom off,  and use them upside-down.  Amazon,  ten bucks for 25 of them.  Four ounce specimen cup with screw on lid


----------



## Bassiklee

pic


----------



## imsurokim

Bassiklee said:


> Before I finally bought the investment cups,  I used these.  Just cut the bottom off,  and use them upside-down.  Amazon,  ten bucks for 25 of them.  Four ounce specimen cup with screw on lid



Thanks for info. I will try them.


----------



## Bassiklee

.


----------



## Kulgrinda

CIEM coming together nicely. Will post a final result soon


----------



## eunice

What resin is that? I love the black.


----------



## Kulgrinda

It is black transparent Dreve Fotoplast from Mcear. I liked black much better than clear, it hardened more evenly and looks nicer in my opinion. Will add Dreve lacquer for shiny look


----------



## eunice

What is the curing time compared to the clear fotoplast? Is it much longer?


----------



## Kulgrinda

Not much longer. I experimented prior finding best time/distance for my setup and lamp. My lamp has 3 intensity settings, low, mid and high. So for clear shells I expose 3x30s in low mode and 1x50s in mid. For black transparent shells I used 3x30s in low mode and 3x50s in mid. All was done at around 10 cm distance from the lamp, shell was placed on the rotating platform. This was only initial exposure I place it upside down and expose for 2 more minutes in mid setting (the same for both kind of shells). Then shell is removed and placed in oil bath and is exposed for 8 more minutes on high setting with a close proximity to the lamp. A shot of the experimenting phase (lamp is much too close to the shell) is below.


----------



## Kulgrinda

And the final result. Will have to improve my varnishing process and driver setup. Sound is too much dampened to my liking, I used green and white filters on GK driver. Will probably have to remove white driver from CI. Overall I'm happy with lessons learned of the first build and will keep on digging into this hobby


----------



## DannyBouwhuis

Kulgrinda said:


> And the final result. Will have to improve my varnishing process and driver setup. Sound is too much dampened to my liking, I used green and white filters on GK driver. Will probably have to remove white driver from CI. Overall I'm happy with lessons learned of the first build and will keep on digging into this hobby




Looks great !!

Maybe some more sanding ? Then laquer en some polishing 

Isnt it better to put the green on the ci and white on the twfk ? 

On my last gk build I had a white on the twfk and a red on the ci, sounded pretty nice 

Anyway keep up the good work


----------



## Kulgrinda

DannyBouwhuis said:


> Looks great !!
> 
> Maybe some more sanding ? Then laquer en some polishing
> 
> ...


Thanks! What do you use for polishing? Some kind of paste and dremel wool discs? Or some kind of other material? This is not polished at all, only wet sanded with 350 before applying varnish. 

I did not want piercing or sibilant sound so chose to dampen twfk a bit more. But I think I should have left CI undampened at all. Anyway this is only the first try, I'll probably dismantle them and keep as a testing pair for different driver setup. I did not find a proper way to set driver setup prior mounting them into the shell.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

For ease of DIY and newcomers
They can get P183 specific driver with wire soldered on already

That made my work way easier

no stress of overheating the drivers with soldering iron by mistake


----------



## DannyBouwhuis (Feb 15, 2019)

Kulgrinda said:


> Thanks! What do you use for polishing? Some kind of paste and dremel wool discs? Or some kind of other material? This is not polished at all, only wet sanded with 350 before applying varnish.
> 
> I did not want piercing or sibilant sound so chose to dampen twfk a bit more. But I think I should have left CI undampened at all. Anyway this is only the first try, I'll probably dismantle them and keep as a testing pair for different driver setup. I did not find a proper way to set driver setup prior mounting them into the shell.



I'm not that good with custom shells, but I always wet sand them, then apply laquer.. Cure it and use a polishing wheel without any polishing compound. I think you could polishing them directly after wetsanding if you use some real fine polishing compound but I havent tried that yet

You could try to build a jig to measure the response of the drivers, or do it by ear.. Or simulate your setup but please dont ask me how 

*edit There are polishing compounds made for acrylic and other plastics, just wetsand them to 800 or 1200 then polishing right ?


----------



## Bassiklee (Feb 15, 2019)

If I polish them,  I sand to 1200, then use a white compound,  followed by plastic polish, followed by a really soft terrycloth wheel with nothing on it.  The compound and polish are done with a dremel.  Takes less than 5 min per ear,  since they're so small.

If I don't polish them,  I hit them lightly with the red "scotch bright" wheel on a dremel, scuffing the shells to give the lacquer something to grab.  I bought a bunch of lacquer from a company called Pro3Dure.  It's not bad,  it's essentially Lak-3, complete with the yellowing issue of Lak-3. I prefer Egger,  which doesn't yellow.  For the moment,  Egger goes on clear shells,  while this Pro3Dure goes on everything else. Might start experimenting with spraying,  like this screen grab from a video.


----------



## Riviera72

I made a single driver with a knowles 32066 and I'm amazed by the sound, I used more than my jh angie and my nicehck nk10 (10ba)


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Riviera72 said:


> I made a single driver with a knowles 32066 and I'm amazed by the sound, I used more than my jh angie and my nicehck nk10 (10ba)


Nice looks, seriously


----------



## ForceMajeure (Feb 16, 2019)

Bassiklee said:


> If I polish them,  I sand to 1200, then use a white compound,  followed by plastic polish, followed by a really soft terrycloth wheel with nothing on it.  The compound and polish are done with a dremel.  Takes less than 5 min per ear,  since they're so small.
> 
> If I don't polish them,  I hit them lightly with the red "scotch bright" wheel on a dremel, scuffing the shells to give the lacquer something to grab.  I bought a bunch of lacquer from a company called Pro3Dure.  It's not bad,  it's essentially Lak-3, complete with the yellowing issue of Lak-3. I prefer Egger,  which doesn't yellow.  For the moment,  Egger goes on clear shells,  while this Pro3Dure goes on everything else. Might start experimenting with spraying,  like this screen grab from a video.


Where did you buy the pro3dure lacquer?
Directly from them?

They are also selling resin and other stuff as well.

Also yeah JH is using the spraying technique. they also roll it by hand near a uv light for curing at least that's what I saw.


----------



## Bassiklee

I got it from Warner.  It's quite a bit cheaper than the others,  so I figured I'd give it a shot. I think their resins are closer in price to the others,  but the lacquer was less than half as much.


----------



## ForceMajeure

Riviera72 said:


> I made a single driver with a knowles 32066 and I'm amazed by the sound, I used more than my jh angie and my nicehck nk10 (10ba)


These look cool


----------



## cjxj

Couple of Tips: As I was working on some CIEMS for some fellow musicians, I thought of a couple very simple things that I do or use all the time that may be useful to some. I've learned A LOT from this group, and although these "cheapskate tips" might seem trivial by comparison, thought someone might find useful. So... use, discount, disregard, or perhaps share your own.

1) Tube cleaning tool. Seems they get lost all the time and I have guys that I've made CIEM's for asking if I have more. I know they're cheap, BUT they're easily fabricated using your discarded high E string when you change strings on your guitar. (see pics) Bend a section of string around another larger string, or around the tip of your tweezers. Cut the resulting wire loop to about an inch long. Drill a 1/16 in hole (or smaller) into the end of a skewer (shown covered by red heat shrink) or small dowel. Superglue the wire into the hole. Cut skewer to length and finish with heat shrink tube (optional). An even quicker/dirtier method is to leave wire loop a bit longer, cover most of it with small heat shrink and make a few bends so you can handle it and make it visible.



2) For those in the US, Harbor Freight frequently has a super cheap "Dremel" like tool set that's often on sale for $6.99 (reg $9.99) that includes a lot of bits. It's small and not very powerful, but I find it very useful for working on shells.  I never use my full size Dremel except for polishing areas I can't reach with my buffer.

3) Face plates: I buy various colors of 1/16 in plexiglass from ebay. Do make sure to sand the area on the perimeter that joins the shells and use a good UV glue such as Bondic or else a 2 part epoxy. I've did have one of my own covers come off when dropped, but I had not sanded the joining area and had used the shell resin to attach rather than glue.

4) Wood face plates: I don't do too many, but have used thin iron-on veneers from Amazon. I think the brand is Band-it.  I put it over the 1/16" veneer (see example in my avitar and pick below). Sometimes I will use different colors underneath the veneer for left and right CIEM. See photo. BTW the laser engraver is a weak / cheap one from Gear Best, but it works on the veneer. I think I paid $70 for it. Not very good for much else.


5) Cheap 5 second UV glues: For general use, I find that the $1 / pen stuff  (look for "5 second fix") you can buy on Ebay  works fine. I use for cable/wiring end support, keeping BA's from moving around, immobilizing crossover components, etc.


----------



## AmG7

Hi guys I just take my first impressions what do you think it’s fine or do I need to take another one


----------



## AmG7




----------



## eunice

Looks ok to me. You will have to make sure the wax is filling the cracks. You might need to fill some wax into the larger cracks with a brush before dipping.


----------



## eunice

In second thought, that one larger crack around the bend is probably time consuming to get right.


----------



## AmG7

eunice said:


> In second thought, that one larger crack around the bend is probably time consuming to get right.



Probably I’ll  take another one just to make sure it’s ok


----------



## Bassiklee

ForceMajeure said:


> Where did you buy the pro3dure lacquer?
> Directly from them?
> 
> They are also selling resin and other stuff as well.
> ...



That screen grab is from the video tour of JH.


----------



## ForceMajeure (Feb 17, 2019)

Bassiklee said:


> That screen grab is from the video tour of JH.


yeah I know haha

here you can see the curing toward the end https://twitter.com/i/status/1035376754268033025

same here https://twitter.com/i/status/1039980321717059585


----------



## Bassiklee (Feb 17, 2019)

Without giving away numbers,  the pro3dure shell resin works out to about 2/3 the cost of Fotoplast. It's actually cheaper than the lacquer. I might give it a try, but the newest Fotoplast is pretty hard to beat. 

As far as JH spraying and then curing by hand,  I wonder what topcoat they're using.  The quick spin in that light is nowhere near long enough to cure anything I've used.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Feb 17, 2019)

@ForceMajeure
We can use Dayton DATS V2 for measurement

for impedance, voice coil, Thiele parameters, etc

*DATS V2 provides the following unique advantages:*
•Ultra-linear impedance response measurement for loudspeaker drivers and complete systems
•Accurate measurement of loudspeaker electromechanical parameters (Fs, Qts, Vas, and many more)
•Measurement of advanced Wright Model parameters (Kr, Xr, Ki, Xi) for precision simulations
•Precise, high-resolution impedance response measurements with 30,000 data points (1 Hz to 20,000 Hz)
•Save and compare up to 20 impedance graphs simultaneously within one test file
•Integrated quality control feature set provides pass/fail parameter measurement (QC Pack)
•Sensitive rub and buzz detection functionality reveals hidden flaws in individual drivers (QC Pack)
•Software signal generator with selectable waveform, frequency, and amplitude
•Generates sine, square, triangle, saw tooth, impulse, pink noise, and log sweeps
•Oscilloscope software mode with dual traces, plus adjustable time and amplitude scales
•Oscilloscope and generator modes are compatible with other audio interfaces
•Quality test interface hardware assembled using precision SMT components and automation
•High-quality alligator clip leads minimize contact resistance for improved consistency
•Includes method for calculating Vas from specified Mmd
•Faster-than-ever hardware startup time virtually eliminates warm-up/cool-down
•Software is compatible with Windows XP, Vista, 7, 8, or 10 with no added configuration needed


well any experience builder

i need help

i have SWFK 31736 in 2mm ID/4mm Lenght tube , and i need it crossover in such a fashion that i can have air in Noble Savant DIY build.







savant measurement by brooko on veritas II

it is not calibrated properly but other measurement(other website) shows that savant cannot do a proper 20kHz extension

and some reviewers say that sound stage is artificially stretched as the air in treble is missing

i would be going with 0.5uF, 1uF and 1.5uF as mentioned here in this thread(dont remember which page though)


----------



## ForceMajeure

dhruvmeena96 said:


> @ForceMajeure
> We can use Dayton DATS V2 for measurement
> 
> for impedance, voice coil, Thiele parameters, etc
> ...



Interesting about the Dats v2, 

regarding crossing over the swfk. try 0.68uf or 0.75uf in series. it depends how it will react with the rest of your setup since the "juice" will split between the drivers differently depending on the crossover used thus the spl might change for some drivers. you will have to "trial and error"...
Knowles has other swfk drivers with built in damping that are worth checking like the 32254/5


----------



## dhruvmeena96

ForceMajeure said:


> Interesting about the Dats v2,
> 
> regarding crossing over the swfk. try 0.68uf or 0.75uf in series. it depends how it will react with the rest of your setup since the "juice" will split between the drivers differently depending on the crossover used thus the spl might change for some drivers. you will have to "trial and error"...
> Knowles has other swfk drivers with built in damping that are worth checking like the 32254/5


Thanks bro

And I need straight non damped SWFK as I need to extract as much I can in HF


----------



## ForceMajeure

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Thanks bro
> 
> And I need straight non damped SWFK as I need to extract as much I can in HF


you will get good high frequency extension even with the damped one. they will just have their peaks less prominent.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Feb 18, 2019)

ForceMajeure said:


> you will get good high frequency extension even with the damped one. they will just have their peaks less prominent.


Well, the damped SWFK has better separation
As per one of my engineer friend here
Well you are correct

He said that undamped SWFK will be as nasty as HODVTEC. 
So thanks bro


Zobel damped RAB 32257 without damper
GQ green damper

@Furco build

The most amazing set I have made till date
aliexpress custom universal shell
Mailed to mom


----------



## eunice

Would you share your schematics and values of this set? That would be awesome.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Feb 18, 2019)

eunice said:


> Would you share your schematics and values of this set? That would be awesome.



RAB32257
A parallel circuit with(optimised value of zobel, its not ideal but works better)
-4.5uF capacitor near positive wire
-42ohm resistor after that.
The tubing for RAB is standard 13(2mm ID) with length of 16mm



Then comes the GQ-30783
-Green damper in front of driver(1mm distance from driver)
-Grey damper in middle(this was mentioned as wool in fucro guide in pg206 for fine tuning, I used grey damper as double stage damping with more fine tuned sound)

Tube is standard 13 tubing(2mm ID) with 20mm lenght


Sweet upper mids and lower treble
Way to much correct airy sensations.
GQ is main driver here
RAB is assist driver

On Furco build, RAB was contributing in bass and treble part
While GQ acts as a full range

On my build
RAB is assisting GQ in bass, mids linearity as it is not peaking GQ(well he did mentioned about damping RAB there) 2kHz, and the treble linear raise rather than peaking(he did mentioned about fine tuning sibilance with damper)

My RAB doesn't get obstructed by dampers, so airy sensation are more surreal and stage gets as wide as it can get

No crossover, no resistor

Just a zobel on RAB


----------



## eunice

Thank you so much! 
So like this?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

eunice said:


> Thank you so much!
> So like this?


LOL
Amazing diagram
Actually the best I have seen in a while

Yup that's it


----------



## eunice

Great. I will build it and comment on it here, it will take a while though (shipping and stuff).

I just googled circuit diagram tool and first google result was https://www.circuit-diagram.org/editor/


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Feb 18, 2019)

eunice said:


> Great. I will build it and comment on it here, it will take a while though (shipping and stuff).
> 
> I just googled circuit diagram tool and first google result was https://www.circuit-diagram.org/editor/


You won't get exact resistance

So get 40ohm and 2ohm resistor  in series

And 4.4uF and 0.1uF cap in parallel(added benefit is lower ESR)

And take a high spec 0.1uF spec and attach it to consumer grade 4.4uF

You will get bypass spec of 0.1uF cap nearby while enjoying the estimated value cap

Resistor should be high précis wirewound or Melf(recommended is wirewound) due to slightly inductive property which act as regaining some very treble detail

In India I can get all these on extremely cheap price per single unit
Rs.10 for AVX oxicap for single unit(that is 1/7th of dollar which is cheaper than China)

Done

They are easy to find


And diagram was good because of heading

That made me laugh


----------



## dhruvmeena96

And there was a question about fitting a Libby horn inside universal IEM(old question though)

It is easy

It has to be flexible Libby horn.
It is just 41mm where 5 to 10mm will be in earphone nozzle
So other part can be folded pretty easily even in KZ ES4 shell without creating bends


----------



## eunice

dhruvmeena96 said:


> And diagram was good because of heading
> That made me laugh



We have to give it a name for future reference in this thread


----------



## Choy Wei De

If I want to use SMD capacitor, what V should I get? I heard that 10v or 16v is good. What about 25v?


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Feb 18, 2019)

Choy Wei De said:


> If I want to use SMD capacitor, what V should I get? I heard that 10v or 16v is good. What about 25v?


The bigger the better
The smaller the better

For iem

That voltage rating means signal breakdown for cap at specified voltage

It is rated in DC and AC

Keep both of them high while having smaller size makes you safer on long run with high power source.


Then their is other things like MLCC and nobium

Nobium only advantage for the current period is extreme safety as those capacitor dont burn and have very high voltage rating for specific size. MLCC are better in audio because this tech has been aged and tolerances are lower(I know, nobium will be lower soon)
Tantalum's are best for price ratio but only high precision tantalum's.
Electrolyte can be used for acoustic effects due its irregularities in behavior over random burst of frequency

Resistor also effect audio line
Wirewound, foil, bulk foil, film and carbon

Carbon is worst
Then comes film
Then comes foil
Then comes the MELF

And tie between wirewound and bulk foil

I prefer wirewound as it is the most aged, most silent(it technically kills noises in some applications). Bulk foil are neutral to signal but the difference will be 5% cleaner to wirewound and are superior in transfer as wirewound resist the behaviour of signal change while foil passes the signal as it is.

Wirewound corrects thing, b foils passes as it is.

That is less effected on crossover or passive circuits but yes there is an effect sometimes noticeable.

Wirewound tends to do better on crossover but sizes are big(rhopoint gg102a do fit in iem shell) and bulk foil or melf can be found in SMD format


For specific caps and resistor ask the experienced members here


----------



## Choy Wei De

dhruvmeena96 said:


> The bigger the better
> The smaller the better
> 
> For iem
> ...



So no difference between 16V and 25V if I’m using for smartphone?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Choy Wei De said:


> So no difference between 16V and 25V if I’m using for smartphone?


get the bigger one always
those parts are not that expensive
get a 25V


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Well, this may not be related to DIY thread
but APEX module membrane is Thermoplastic elastomer of thickness of 0.1mm
m20 is one vent and m15 is two vent

but if we get a graphene coat on TPE , make the diameter 12mm and looks like sony just hear IEM with only one vent for pressure exchange
on comsol simulation, it will give pure ear-pressure relieve.

if we wanna relieve the eardrum, make the diameter of secondary eardrum more than 10mm and i think APEX and ADEL are 8mm

The apex and ADEL are small, but the benefits are there

vents in m15 release pressure faster so has better comfort issues
m20 one vent lets the pressure build up 


but if we have secondary eardrum of more than 10mm, we can just have a tiny dot and it will work wonders, because the pressure wont be enough to flex a bigger diaphragm and more surface area will convert more pressure energy into heat and exchange pressure

other way is stacking multiple layer of 8mm diaphragm in a row. it can be 5 layers with proper air gap in between

i think it is easy to make inside an iem
but hard as an module


----------



## dhruvmeena96

@piotrus-g 
The Libby Horn can provide a smooth wideband response with the appropriate damping elements in the tip of the earhook (Fig 5). It can be used to obtain a maximum response at 2.7 Hz in order to compensate for the loss of canal resonance. If an occluded earmold is used, the last 11 mm of the horn can be cut away and the last part of the earmold can serve as the last portion of the horn.

as mentioned on 

http://cylibby.com/libby-horn/

if we cut away 11mm away
it is only 31mm

and if i take freqphase, they fitted 60mm for treble in reverse firing 

so i think libby horn is possible


----------



## imsurokim

Just finished my first iem, didn't turned out correct. First MMCX adaptor is installed too close to ear so I cannot fit them perfect in my ear. However, I was able to get decent sound when I push them towards my ear. 

I am trying to rebuild them since it wouldn't work. Is there any way I can boost bass by any chance? Adding a bass driver, adding more filter. Anything will help.

Thanks,


----------



## eunice

imsurokim said:


> First MMCX adaptor is installed too close to ear so I cannot fit them perfect in my ear



Happened to me to. I started installing the sockets at a slight angle outwards, that helps a lot.



imsurokim said:


> Is there any way I can boost bass by any chance?



What driver did you choose? The number one reason for lacking bass is not ideal fit. If you loose the seal, you will loose almost all of the bass. I always thought that the Knowles GV did not produce enough bass, but I had bad impressions and improving the fit by manually applying resin (with a syringe) gave me a good enough seal for plenty of bass.


----------



## imsurokim

eunice said:


> Happened to me to. I started installing the sockets at a slight angle outwards, that helps a lot.


Thanks for the tip. I will try to make them angled later.



eunice said:


> What driver did you choose? The number one reason for lacking bass is not ideal fit. If you loose the seal, you will loose almost all of the bass. I always thought that the Knowles GV did not produce enough bass, but I had bad impressions and improving the fit by manually applying resin (with a syringe) gave me a good enough seal for plenty of bass.



I have oem westone w3 driver. I temporary pushed iems to my ear with fingers to have air tight fit, still lacks little bass to my taste. I think they have two TWFKs + CI22955. I used WHITE damper for TWFK 5mm apart and RED damper on CI 7mm away.


----------



## eunice

If it's just a little bass missing, increase the damper on the TWFK.
The GV, my favorite so far, has HODVTEC for bass and TWFK for highs, and I enjoy red on TWFK and orange on HODVTEC most.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

eunice said:


> If it's just a little bass missing, increase the damper on the TWFK.
> The GV, my favorite so far, has HODVTEC for bass and TWFK for highs, and I enjoy red on TWFK and orange on HODVTEC most.


Ain't red on TWFK too hard as a damping scheme

I go with green(near spout) and grey(center of tube)

Red kills the air for me


----------



## imsurokim

Will red on TWFK kills too much treble? I ordered couple of GV and GK and was thinking about putting green on TWFK and RED or ORANGE on HODVTEC. 

Is adding one more bass driver a whole different story than just adding damper?


----------



## eunice

It's red near spout and no damper at the center. So I presume that it's about the same damping effect as you have.


----------



## eunice

imsurokim said:


> Is adding one more bass driver a whole different story than just adding damper?


Yes, as it throws everything into chaos  If you introduce a driver in parallel or in series, it influences all other drivers as well. GV/GK has tiny smd components (I think two caps) as a crossover, you will need to adjust them if you add a driver.


----------



## imsurokim

eunice said:


> Yes, as it throws everything into chaos  If you introduce a driver in parallel or in series, it influences all other drivers as well. GV/GK has tiny smd components (I think two caps) as a crossover, you will need to adjust them if you add a driver.



I guess I will try that later when I get used to making shell and have one perfect sounding ciem with dampers. I saw one of your picture with crazy configuration. I was surprised that everything fits in to your shell. My shell turned out to be really small and had hard time fitting 3 drivers.


----------



## eunice

If your shell is to small you can gain some size by adding bluetack or impression material to the base of your impressions (where the face plate would go) that way the iems will stick out of your ear a little, but if you don’t over do it it will still look cool and you have a little more room inside.


----------



## imsurokim

eunice said:


> If your shell is to small you can gain some size by adding bluetack or impression material to the base of your impressions (where the face plate would go) that way the iems will stick out of your ear a little, but if you don’t over do it it will still look cool and you have a little more room inside.


Thanks. I should try that. 

Here is picture of my first shell which has huge hole in the middle. I think I wasn’t curing it long enough. Or my negative impression has uneven spacing between side wall and where resin is.


----------



## eunice

You are not curing from below, that’s your problem. 

I have drilled a hole through the bottom mirror of my nail lamp and cure the shells right side up. 

You could also try to place a mirror or aluminum foil under your investments.


----------



## alanwcruz

imsurokim said:


> Thanks. I should try that.
> 
> Here is picture of my first shell which has huge hole in the middle. I think I wasn’t curing it long enough. Or my negative impression has uneven spacing between side wall and where resin is.



I used to get the same thing happen to me, what I did to solve it with that kind of lamp was this, cover the sides of your mold along with the top so only the bottom of exposed, then place your mold on one of the bulbs so that it gets hit with UV light from the bottom.

Then remove the side covers and cure normally.


----------



## imsurokim

alanwcruz said:


> I used to get the same thing happen to me, what I did to solve it with that kind of lamp was this, cover the sides of your mold along with the top so only the bottom of exposed, then place your mold on one of the bulbs so that it gets hit with UV light from the bottom.
> 
> Then remove the side covers and cure normally.





eunice said:


> You are not curing from below, that’s your problem.
> 
> I have drilled a hole through the bottom mirror of my nail lamp and cure the shells right side up.
> 
> You could also try to place a mirror or aluminum foil under your investments.



Great community!!!! So I wasn't giving enough UV to the bottom of the mold. I screwed up first mold by not covering up the top(gave me solid piece), second with whole showing in pictures and third one I cured longer time same position and got thicker outer wall, but still thin U shape but no hole. 

The other problem I had was negative impression is ripping. As you can see from the picture, bottom of mold (thinnest part of face plate) has crack and UV resin leaks there and I had to sand them.


----------



## imsurokim

It is little embarrassing, but here is picture of my okay shell. It turned opaque white after cleaning with 99% Isopropyl alcohol and sanding. It was transparent before that. There is huge bubbles inside, uneven shell width, and quite shallow to fit driver and MMCX adaptor in perfect position. My soldering is not good at all, and I sanded too much out from tip. Nothing went well, so I didn't bother polishing it since I am going to pull driver out of them.


----------



## Shilohsjustice

imsurokim said:


> It is little embarrassing, but here is picture of my okay shell. It turned opaque white after cleaning with 99% Isopropyl alcohol and sanding. It was transparent before that. There is huge bubbles inside, uneven shell width, and quite shallow to fit driver and MMCX adaptor in perfect position. My soldering is not good at all, and I sanded too much out from tip. Nothing went well, so I didn't bother polishing it since I am going to pull driver out of them.




 You did a fantastic job, over the years lots and lots and lots of people have asked questions and bought material, but have given up in the process. You started and seen your creation through until complete, and learned a lot through the process I’m sure. My first set looked like that too. Keep at it they get better with each build!!


----------



## imsurokim

Shilohsjustice said:


> You did a fantastic job, over the years lots and lots and lots of people have asked questions and bought material, but have given up in the process. You started and seen your creation through until complete, and learned a lot through the process I’m sure. My first set looked like that too. Keep at it they get better with each build!!



Thanks! I used your recipe to make negative impression, but eyeballed 1oz of glycerin not measuring exact amount. First negative impression was not firm enough it cut to pieces when I try to pull it out from container, so I heated left over and put more glycerin, and got that one on the picture. I think I will make another one with exact amount and see if that works better. At least I didn't have any bubbling issues with negative impression using microwave for 10s and pour out liquids. Hopefully my second set gets better than that.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Feb 20, 2019)

imsurokim said:


> Great community!!!! So I wasn't giving enough UV to the bottom of the mold. I screwed up first mold by not covering up the top(gave me solid piece), second with whole showing in pictures and third one I cured longer time same position and got thicker outer wall, but still thin U shape but no hole.
> 
> The other problem I had was negative impression is ripping. As you can see from the picture, bottom of mold (thinnest part of face plate) has crack and UV resin leaks there and I had to sand them.


Is the UV source a bulb diy or a machine to especially cure the moulds

If it is a bulb, you can get a hollow cylinder with mirror surface inside it.

Attach bulb on one side and taped mould with bottom open for curing on other side.

We used it for SLA printing for fun and it works



And I saw your shell

Its great.

Keep the work going and don't loose hope


And for soldering
The trick is to apply solder on wire first
Heat it slightly
And quickly but carefully attaching it to BA taps.

This way, BA chances of getting damaged reduces


----------



## dhruvmeena96

eunice said:


> Yes, as it throws everything into chaos  If you introduce a driver in parallel or in series, it influences all other drivers as well. GV/GK has tiny smd components (I think two caps) as a crossover, you will need to adjust them if you add a driver.


@imsurokim @eunice 

parallel wont deviate the signature that much since a GV/GK/GQ/HE were already wired in parallel with crossovers

if you put something parallel to these, there wont be that much issue, but tuning them to work with factory crossover driver can be hard, since they are made to cover full frequency.

ok lets go this way, putting another WBFK to GQ is okay but putting SWFK can put the balance to a loss since SWFK impedance is lower and is more sensitive, it can go mask over in additive fashion, increasing treble by lot.

Parallel means voltage distribuiton equal. This means that driver voltage will first divide in half and then go parallel.


series would need specific crossover as series is ampere eater plus the voltage can change due to a speaker being a bad inductor and resistor. since voltage is our signal in music, the other series speaker of different kind may see a very weird signal


series is recommended with single driver setup of same type


----------



## vladstef

I have a question about Knowles GQ-30783. Does anyone know which drivers is it using? One is a standard WBFK but the other one is ED with a vent, meaning ED-26821 or ED-20805 (I guess, might be wrong).

Is it possible to remove its crossover and add our own like we would with separated BAs? It comes down to - is the board glued on or is it just soldered to ED driver.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

vladstef said:


> I have a question about Knowles GQ-30783. Does anyone know which drivers is it using? One is a standard WBFK but the other one is ED with a vent, meaning ED-26821 or ED-20805 (I guess, might be wrong).
> 
> Is it possible to remove its crossover and add our own like we would with separated BAs? It comes down to - is the board glued on or is it just soldered to ED driver.


it is possible to seperate them, but dont do that as they were tuned by single spout or nozzle
and doing that at home would be more risky

well, the question you asked here was bugging me for a period of time


----------



## Kulgrinda

imsurokim said:


> Thanks. I should try that.
> 
> Here is picture of my first shell which has huge hole in the middle. I think I wasn’t curing it long enough. Or my negative impression has uneven spacing between side wall and where resin is.



My first set of shells were almost solid, then there was the same situation with the hole at the bottom. I solved it by keeping greater distance between the lamp and the rotating table and using lower light setting. Of course it meant much longer exposure time. After several tries I managed to get perfect thickness in the shell, very easy to drill the holes and keep the inside clean. Try experimenting that way. 

Mirror at the bottom of the negative mold actually made the nozzle solid which is not good. I also remove the shell from the form after initial exposure, flip it over and expose it some time, letting the remaining liquid plastic to run out.


----------



## imsurokim

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Is the UV source a bulb diy or a machine to especially cure the moulds
> 
> If it is a bulb, you can get a hollow cylinder with mirror surface inside it.
> 
> ...


I used this product, straight out from box but upright position with no mirror on the bottom. I will try couple more times and hopefully it gets better.



dhruvmeena96 said:


> @imsurokim @eunice
> 
> parallel wont deviate the signature that much since a GV/GK/GQ/HE were already wired in parallel with crossovers
> 
> ...


I am not expert on any of electrical engineering, so I am not getting this 100%, but I might want to try add driver to my GV later if I want more bass, I will ask more questions when the time comes.



Kulgrinda said:


> My first set of shells were almost solid, then there was the same situation with the hole at the bottom. I solved it by keeping greater distance between the lamp and the rotating table and using lower light setting. Of course it meant much longer exposure time. After several tries I managed to get perfect thickness in the shell, very easy to drill the holes and keep the inside clean. Try experimenting that way.
> 
> Mirror at the bottom of the negative mold actually made the nozzle solid which is not good. I also remove the shell from the form after initial exposure, flip it over and expose it some time, letting the remaining liquid plastic to run out.



I actually had part of nozzle tip chipped out while drilling hole. I am guessing my diamond drill bit wasn't good enough.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Feb 21, 2019)

imsurokim said:


> I used this product, straight out from box but upright position with no mirror on the bottom. I will try couple more times and hopefully it gets better.
> 
> 
> I am not expert on any of electrical engineering, so I am not getting this 100%, but I might want to try add driver to my GV later if I want more bass, I will ask more questions when the time comes.
> ...


well,

get a mirror slab and close the opening/hand inserting part of the UV machine


ok, letme explain the voltage and ampere basics
The voltage is your Singal

if you put a RAB 32257 speaker parallel to other RAB 32257, the voltage is divided 50% to each driver
the best part of voltage division is that, you can divide it in any percent, the signal waveform remain same(AC waverform)

So in parallel, drivers are okay


but in series RAB32257, the first speaker is fed with same voltage and other speaker will also be fed the same voltage, but the Ampere is dropped(Power of signal playing). The division is still 50% but the impedance rises and sensitivity reach becomes harder

but the problem arises when different driver are in series, since the 1st driver sees a the other driver as variable resistor and inductor and can get low or high pass randomly. same happens as second driver sees 1st driver as a different load

thats why impedance graph are important


that doesnt happens in parallel. in parallel, you isolate the driver from each other while dropping impedance


----------



## imsurokim

dhruvmeena96 said:


> well,
> 
> get a mirror slab and close the opening/hand inserting part of the UV machine
> 
> ...


I understand now. So if I want more bass from my w3 driver (TWFK+CI) and decided to add one more CI to my configuration, can I just connect them parallen and give proper damper?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

imsurokim said:


> I understand now. So if I want more bass from my w3 driver (TWFK+CI) and decided to add one more CI to my configuration, can I just connect them parallen and give proper damper?


Adding CI to TWFK+CI is mentioned already on this thread

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/home-made-iems.430688/page-265


Dual CI and TWFK

The CI are parallel and are heavily damped
TWFK is wired out of phase(reverse the +ve and -ve wiring)

It sounds amazing, and bass goes deeper and deeper. Soundstage is wide and treble region follows Harman kardon curve like sound


----------



## Bassiklee

dhruvmeena96 said:


> well,
> 
> get a mirror slab and close the opening/hand inserting part of the UV machine
> 
> ...




Actually,  my understanding of electronics is exactly the opposite of that. If two loads are wired in parallel, they both recieve the voltage the source is putting out.  If two loads are in series,  the voltage is divided across them. Assuming the loads are the same impedance,  then the voltage will be split equally.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Feb 22, 2019)

Bassiklee said:


> Actually,  my understanding of electronics is exactly the opposite of that. If two loads are wired in parallel, they both recieve the voltage the source is putting out.  If two loads are in series,  the voltage is divided across them. Assuming the loads are the same impedance,  then the voltage will be split equally.


Its waveform of voltage which remains same in parallel
In series, the two drivers are seen as one so are feeded with same voltage

Yes you are right, but I mentioned other driver will see first driver as variable resistor and inductor and vice versa. That's why audio quality changes and impedance rises. And voltage splits up randomly(if drivers are different)

Anything in parallel is a voltage divider

For example L-pad circuit.




Series resistor eats up the current
Parallel divides the voltage

Waveform is retained

This is a voltage division L-pad


----------



## Bassiklee

My point is that you have said that two drivers in parallel will each see half the voltage, and that is not the case.  Similarly,  you've said two drivers in series will both see the total voltage of the source. That is also not correct.  You've got it backwards.  Simple test:  

Pick a source, for the sake of argument well say a 9V battery.  For simplicity,  let's assume it's actually putting out 9V.  Two 1K resistors.  Wire them in parallel,  measure the voltage across either of them.  You get 9V. Wire them in series,  (for the sake of argument, these are precisely matched resistors), and you'll measure 4.5V across each one.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Feb 22, 2019)

Bassiklee said:


> My point is that you have said that two drivers in parallel will each see half the voltage, and that is not the case.  Similarly,  you've said two drivers in series will both see the total voltage of the source. That is also not correct.  You've got it backwards.  Simple test:
> 
> Pick a source, for the sake of argument well say a 9V battery.  For simplicity,  let's assume it's actually putting out 9V.  Two 1K resistors.  Wire them in parallel,  measure the voltage across either of them.  You get 9V. Wire them in series,  (for the sake of argument, these are precisely matched resistors), and you'll measure 4.5V across each one.


OK......well I m wrong then
I got it wrong
But if you add a parallel resistor to a speaker, you drop impedance and test shows that voltage drops per frequency.

Actually voltage remains same, ampere drops
I asked my Senior
He said it is called voltage divider as both share voltage 
Series is voltage eater.(lol he did say that, I am in office)

He showed me that voltage division means that they share same amount if voltage, reduced power..

OK I was getting it wrong but I was doing correct calculation this far...lol

My fault

Since V=I*R

Resistance drop reduces voltage when you put a shunt resistor in parallel to speaker.

Why dont we PM on this


----------



## dhruvmeena96

For piotrus-g scary crossover

2xCI and TWFK

Now you can replace the CI-22955 with CI-28352

Its a side firing CI with same specs and same response

This makes the soldering easier and placement also easier inside shells

And the tolerance is also lower due to newer driver


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Feb 22, 2019)

Xymordos said:


> Interesting, I never actually seen this design in IEMs before, other than ATH's dual phase drivers. Is this common in speakers?
> 
> Have you tried it before? For my design I didn't leave much space between the drivers, around only 1mm of space only, which might be why the bass sounds so soft.


it is 3mm for me
i used NiceHCK 6mm driver
but my implementation was crude

when we drive speaker in phase inside a closed tube, they cancel each other
but when we take a vent and leak it into environment or ear, it becomes ripole

Ripole is good for bass, but on small drivers, we can hear the mids and treble due to the unit being to near to the ear

if you have heard Brainwavz R3, it has gigantic bass because the 10mm driver bass boost plus to remove phase cancellation, they crossed the driver 

JH used 4~mm sorta driver if i remember

that driver must not be having bass and lower mids presence but higher mid range and treble presence. By doing so, it would have raised the responses in lower mids while canceling everything above 3kHz~4kHz

if we cross driver while running in phase, we can have way better response plus the whole DOME or Brainwavz cavity can act as a boosting Helmholtz resonator
and this setup


----------



## Senor CIEM

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Adding CI to TWFK+CI is mentioned already on this thread
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/home-made-iems.430688/page-265
> 
> ...



Well, correct me please when I'm wrong. But adding a SWFK with 1.5uF cap seems to me a good way to make it a 6 one. 
Putting SWFK + TWFK to one tube and both CIs make sense to me. 

Or am I thinking wrong? Thanks!


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Feb 22, 2019)

Senor CIEM said:


> Well, correct me please when I'm wrong. But adding a SWFK with 1.5uF cap seems to me a good way to make it a 6 one.
> Putting SWFK + TWFK to one tube and both CIs make sense to me.
> 
> Or am I thinking wrong? Thanks!


Hmmmm

well, add a 1uF rather than 1.5uF
And dont use SWFK 31736, because treble in this configuration(Dual CI and TWFK) is already enough
Use a SWFK 32255


and you can use CI-28352 rather than CI-22955. That is a better driver for ease of use and space management(Both are same from inside and every parameters, response is same) because of its side firing spout.


for GQ to sound even more massive(your old build)

here is the horn and damper specification for you

damper brown 1000ohm 5mm away from driver

1.5mm ID/8.0mm length
2.0mm ID/2.5mm length
3.0mm ID/3.0mm length


----------



## Lucas Taboada

About the Lack3, anyone has experienced the lacquer starting to dry/becoming sticky/curing before you finish the brushing or curing? I'm in a closed room with a led light, so there's no UV light coming from anywhere I believe.. it is a bit strange because if I wanna retouch after the shell rotate a little, I always have to put more lacquer because the brush kind of stick if I don't put more..

Other question, I bought a Bellsing ED, and it seems that the sound varies in volume sometimes... I thought that was a loose MMCX connector, but tested with another driver and it's fine. Is that common with this drivers?


----------



## Bassiklee

I have had similar issues with Lak3. That,  plus it yellows a decent bit when it cures.  

As for Bellsing,  I have a pair of their five driver components.  I haven't tested them yet.  I have been told that they are not as consistent as the Knowles drivers they are "similar to".


----------



## Senor CIEM (Feb 22, 2019)

Well, I guess I got a problem here or something.
Maybe someone can take a look over it...

I did 3 measurements. All GK builds, trying to find best damper combination. Its alway a RED on the CI, just switching TWFK ones.
Both red lines are A: Brown Damper / B: White Damper - Green Line is: Green Damper

Is there just THIS little bit of difference as I see it in my Smaart? Because it looks not that much. Its just a few db between White and Brown. I mean, yeah, it's not a big difference in the value, I know, but can you confirm this too me?

Asking to be sure, that I won't have a measurement setup error.

Thank you!

BTW: Don't mind whats going on over 10kHz, thats in what position I put the silicon tip in the tube.


----------



## eunice

This is from earlier in this thread:


 
So your graph looks about right to me. 

But if you listen to it, you will notice a difference. 

You seem to have less roll-off in the bass than me. I have the exact same setup (umik and pvc pipe) and I had a friend 3D print me some adapter for the tubes. Before that, i didn’t hardly measure any bass.


----------



## Senor CIEM (Feb 22, 2019)

eunice said:


> This is from earlier in this thread:
> 
> So your graph looks about right to me.
> 
> ...



Thanks for you answer!
I know the graphic, but I thought I can measure the difference a bit more. Its just 1-2db difference between White and Brown. Actually Brown is a bit louder... it looks kind of weird to me... I can hear the difference, but I like to measure it too, or may obvious.

Also I'm asking, because I did the standard GK build (red & green) and got two different measurements for both sides.
I guess my TWFK died, when I look at the phase, just want to share with you guys, just to be sure, that this is the problem.
What you think?

Red is left side, Pink is right side.




EDIT:
Something weird is going on.
This is zoomed into the HF region. FAT line is TWFK of GK with White Damper, Slim is TWFK of GK with Green Damper. I overlapped it with the LF measurement, thats same volume... Thats not a big difference...


----------



## eunice

Are you sure you get a good seal every time? Did you check whether you blocked the vent of the TWFK?

Of course one of the drivers of the twfk could be broken, but if you have problems with the repeatability of your measurements, you need to fix that first. 

As I said, I had huge problems with my first tries coupling the iem to the mic. I tried blue tack, impression material different tube widths, all to no avail. Sometimes I would get good measurements but sometimes not. It was pita.


----------



## eunice

This is my coupler, so you get an idea what I am talking about.


----------



## eunice (Feb 23, 2019)

So I have now tested the Bellsing 6 driver. It is a huge step forward compared to the Bellsing 5 driver, to the point that I can suggest trying a build with it.

The bass of the Bellsing 6 is awesome, at times sounding just like a dynamic driver, being capable of long and controlled bass notes. In that regard, it’s a little better than the Knowles GV.

However, it seems to suffer slightly from the same issue as the Bellsing 5 but not as dominant: especially if you hear at higher volumes, there is something odd going on in the mids, it could be slight distortion or phase issues.

Overall I enjoy the GV more than the Bellsing 6, but the Bellsing 6 is really fun too.


----------



## Bassiklee

That Bellsing 6 looks very HODVTEC on the low side,  where the 5 is Cl


----------



## eunice

Bassiklee said:


> That Bellsing 6 looks very HODVTEC on the low side,  where the 5 is Cl


I agree. Bellsing 5 seems to be 2x TWFK  + 1x CI, Bellsing 6 could be 2x TWFK + 1x HODVTEC.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

dhruvmeena96 said:


> @Ivan TT
> 
> i want to correct myself
> 
> ...


@Bassiklee 
I did mention parallel keep voltage same....just messed up and forgot (due to heavy work) recently


----------



## Choy Wei De

Hi, can someone explain the difference (pros and cons) of CI, TEC, DTEC, HODTEC and HODVTEC?

I like the sound of Fender FXA9, planning to re-create the same sound.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Choy Wei De said:


> Hi, can someone explain the difference (pros and cons) of CI, TEC, DTEC, HODTEC and HODVTEC?
> 
> I like the sound of Fender FXA9, planning to re-create the same sound.


Go to headfonia review of FXA9 pro

Driver for Bass HODVTEC(damm sure about it)
@Choy Wei De its not HODTEC....its HODVTEC(I was seeing side image. On headohonio review, a top view of drivers was actually semi visible and I know HODVTEC vents look like.. Sonion are squarish, while Knowles are round


----------



## Choy Wei De

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Go to headfonia review of FXA9 pro
> 
> Driver for Bass HODVTEC(damm sure about it)
> @Choy Wei De its not HODTEC....its HODVTEC(I was seeing side image. On headohonio review, a top view of drivers was actually semi visible and I know HODVTEC vents look like.. Sonion are squarish, while Knowles are round



I saw only one of the drivers is using a damper. I assume that driver is in charge of mids. I’m not familiar with dual drivers at that point of time when I was trying out that earphone.


----------



## cyph3r

I am ordering some BAs from Sonion rep in Europe. Anyone interested to hop on? PM me if interested.

Costs will be sum of {share of shipment to me, shipment from me to you and the actual price of your order}.


----------



## piotrus-g

Choy Wei De said:


> Hi, can someone explain the difference (pros and cons) of CI, TEC, DTEC, HODTEC and HODVTEC?


CI - Single driver - one of the biggest headrooms, very powerful - different family from all below
TEC - Single driver - smaller than CI, faster in response
DTEC - D(ual)TEC - 6dB bigger headroom compared to TEC
HODTEC - H(igh)O(utput)DTEC - 3dB improved headroom compared to DTEC (non-vented)
HODVTEC - HODV(evnted)TEC - improved headroom + vents


----------



## dhruvmeena96

CI - Single driver - lower mid bass to subbass oriented(subbass is also good)
TEC - Single driver - mid bass to mids oriented
DTEC - D(ual)TEC - mid bass to mids(can do subbass)
HODTEC - H(igh)O(utput)DTEC - can do all three, improved dB response
HODVTEC - HODV(evnted)TEC - can do all three(subbass oriented)


----------



## Ivan TT (Feb 26, 2019)

@dhruvmeena96
Unfortunately I cannot confirm that series/parallel configuration of RAB-32257 and RAF-32873 is better than all 4 drivers in series, actually quite the opposite.

I have 2 IEMs based on x4 drivers configuration (both RAB and RAF) before me, initially configured series/parallel and then reconfigured as series only, the latter is much superior sounding, better extension on either side of the spectrum, better dynamics and overall musicality, beating series/parallel configuration hands down.

I also prefer RAF over RAB, RAF is a touch more vivid, but not at the expense of resolution/details. I used green damper on both, as with both brown and white sound had a touch of harshness unfortunately.



Spoiler



I did not use suggested zobel circuit though.
Tested on heavily modded Zishan DSD AKK4497, using x2 paralleled OPA1622  configured as buffer and +/-12V rails, so it can provide sufficient current, voltage and has reasonable damping factor for series/parallel configuration too (output impedance around 3Ohm).


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Ivan TT said:


> @dhruvmeena96
> Unfortunately I cannot confirm that series-parallel configuration of RAB-32257 and RAF-32873 is better than all 4 drivers in series, actually quite the opposite.
> 
> I have 2 IEMs based on x4 drivers configuration (both RAB and RAF) before me, initially configured series/parallel and then reconfigured as series only, the latter is much superior sounding, better extension on either side of the spectrum, better dynamics and overall musicality, beating series/parallel configuration hands down.
> ...


Hmmmm... It can be

My concern was impedance bro...
Series will sound more vivid due to risen impedance and crazy rise voice coil impedance while lowered volume.

But on same volume pressure level, the series parallel will distort less and play more smoother.

Series on other hand won't even rise to that level of volume and distortion can make things vivid..

Both are safe to play, but series is harder to drive, that's all

RAF is more impedant at 1kHz, giving rise to average mid vibrancy(2ohms more) and is vivid in treble, but distorts more.

I tune by science first and then by musical tastes...

In my experience(I also did series, series parallel, parallel.       .....series increases treble(sibilant if driven very high) and mid range response, lowers volume and black background.

Series parallel keeps the response same, lowers distortion, flattens phase response and timing. But sensitivity remains same, so it can cause some source hiss.

Parallel is worse and needs L-pad and a series resistance of 100ohms

Dynamic reach remains sorta same.)


----------



## sanekn

Hi guys, have been a while since my last build. I'm gonna make another one for me, just with a classic GK, 1 tube, no dumpers. Wish me luck  I have really tight ear canals, so 2 tubes are almost impossible in my case, on with 2 thin tubes which is not ideal... So yeah.

Will do some zebrano covers on it, love this wood to death!


----------



## Ivan TT (Feb 26, 2019)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Both are safe to play, but series is harder to drive, that's all


I'm certain my DSD has an output stage that is more than capable of driving 22Ohm load (and confirms to 8-to-1 rule re: impedance), so not a factor.
But we come from different (complementing, not opposing if you ask me) campuses: all I care about is the sound quality and qualities, and it's science problem if it contradicts what I hear.
And I hear some really wonderful stuff in serial (corrected) configuration, actually struggle to stop listening to music as it is such an emotionally involving and intense experience!


----------



## eunice

Ivan TT said:


> And I hear some really wonderful stuff in paralleled configuration,



You mean serial?


----------



## Ivan TT (Feb 26, 2019)

eunice said:


> You mean serial?


Ups, sorry.
Yes, serial of course.


----------



## eunice

Ivan TT said:


> Yes, parallel of course.


Whaat???


----------



## Ivan TT

eunice said:


> Whaat???


Not my day, apologies 
For the avoidance of the doubt:
I have both x4 RAB and RAF configured IN SERIES and that's the configuration I prefer.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Feb 26, 2019)

Ivan TT said:


> I'm certain my DSD has an output stage that is more than capable of driving 22Ohm load (and confirms to 8-to-1 rule re: impedance), so not a factor.
> But we come from different (complementing, not opposing if you ask me) campuses: all I care about is the sound quality and qualities, and it's science problem if it contradicts what I hear.
> And I hear some really wonderful stuff in serial (corrected) configuration, actually struggle to stop listening to music as it is such an emotionally involving and intense experience!


i know

series sounds emotionally engaging and lovely
Ety ER4 100ohm edition was better than "20ohm edition" and "470uF 100ohm edition" in sound
what i meant at older post was harder driver which is quad RAB series(88ohms DCR at 108dB).
I did series parallel for ease of driving factor and for the zobel circuit i was making. Mine sounds like AKG K501. Mid range focused, heavenly stage and cold analytical but with crazy micro detailing rather than macro detailing. Coughs, placements, rasp was better done on mine

i did ED29689 quad series with red damper and RAB32257 quad series with white damper. They both sound magically resolving in nuances and macro detailing. dynamic reach is same in both, but the real magic was blackness in staging. No hiss, every instruments was isolated better and things were like vibrant rather than saturated

i think, that may have happened due to 4 times surface area and 31.2mH inductive force total(31.2mH voicecoil are present in 21inch fullranger from SEAS). That can give a feeling of very huge dynamic sound coming from my setup.

mine maintains 4 time surface area, at 7.2mH total inductance on circuit whereas the series behave like 15.6mH dual surface area, which can sound less like a dynamic driver though compared to your setup.

what i meant with signature was when your setup and mine setup are driven at exact volume(Your at max knob and mine at 1/4th of amp knob), your will distort more and heat up the amp as the load is too high and series driver tends to distort(in my experience), i just wanted to stay away from that

and i recently added 50ohms resistance to mine to stop it from hissing and behave more like audiophile. Both setups are good, mine sounds stage perfect and your sounds like detailed yet euphoric

from my experience


RAF is my favorite driver. damm that mids sounds so nice and also needs less damping compared to other drivers

@eunice @Ivan TT

best chat ever lol
Blame autocorrect, i always do.....its fun



by the way, quad series on ED29689. They seriously become lovely in sound. Ety measured tubing with green filter per 2 drivers make it dual bore

add 50ohms resistance in series to this

damm neutral and lovely sound, way better than Etymotic ER4


----------



## PinoNL

@dhruvmeena96 

You mentioned earlier that you use universal IEM shells. Which shells do you use?

I have some fittment issues with the shells ordered from AliExpress. The nozzles is too small for my ears


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Feb 26, 2019)

PinoNL said:


> @dhruvmeena96
> 
> You mentioned earlier that you use universal IEM shells. Which shells do you use?
> 
> I have some fittment issues with the shells ordered from AliExpress. The nozzles is too small for my ears



https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/XERRhFE

This one
My designs are 2 to 3 bore, so it fit like a charm(it fits tight, not like charm...lol..autocorrect)


----------



## Bassiklee

I find it curious that you say you go with series/parallel to make them easier to drive,  but then add series resistance to the circuit.  Kinda throws that argument right out the window.


----------



## Choy Wei De

@dhruvmeena96 @eunice @Ivan TT 

If i want to listen my music on my iphone. Which configuration can my iPhone drive?
I’m hoping to build a dual driver soon.


----------



## eunice

Choy Wei De said:


> Which configuration can my iPhone drive?


My iPhone can drive anything I built very good. The sound quality is also good. If you want to go for insane sound quality, invest in an Audioquest DragonFly Black (~$100) and an USB3 iPhone OTG adapter (~$40). You need to buy the large USB-3 OTG from Apple with charging port. They do work properly and don't break too quick. The cheap clones break after a few days and the small non-USB-3 did not work at all for me.
Knowles GV + DragonFly Black delivers insanely good sound quality.


----------



## SVTong

@Ivan TT ,

How does your series RAFx4 compare to the GV?  I really like the GV, but the price difference between them is huge.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Bassiklee said:


> I find it curious that you say you go with series/parallel to make them easier to drive,  but then add series resistance to the circuit.  Kinda throws that argument right out the window.


i need same inductance to my circuit, not resistance

series parallel keep inductance and impedance same, so the circuit see it as a single speaker
i add resistor for attenuation afterwards


Choy Wei De said:


> @dhruvmeena96 @eunice @Ivan TT
> 
> If i want to listen my music on my iphone. Which configuration can my iPhone drive?
> I’m hoping to build a dual driver soon.



1. Noble Savant DIY version
2. Fucro or My mom version RAB32257 + GQ(its a triple driver but will count in double because GQ is bundled driver)
3. Etymotic ER4 20ohm version DIY


----------



## Choy Wei De

SVTong said:


> @Ivan TT ,
> 
> How does your series RAFx4 compare to the GV?  I really like the GV, but the price difference between them is huge.



I’m very interested also


----------



## dhruvmeena96

SVTong said:


> @Ivan TT ,
> 
> How does your series RAFx4 compare to the GV?  I really like the GV, but the price difference between them is huge.


Before he reply
i have done series RAF too

its sounds lovely

see Knowles GV is upto tuning and damper
RAF is about fullrange love.
Its hard to explain but lemme explain, crossover introduce artifacts in signal but old time people were not able to avoid it due speaker inefficiency
series RAF sound like everything is done right. Vibrant mids, extended and amazing treble and limitless bass and that from a BA.
and no hiss


downside is that smartphone cannot power it properly


----------



## Choy Wei De

eunice said:


> My iPhone can drive anything I built very good. The sound quality is also good. If you want to go for insane sound quality, invest in an Audioquest DragonFly Black (~$100) and an USB3 iPhone OTG adapter (~$40). You need to buy the large USB-3 OTG from Apple with charging port. They do work properly and don't break too quick. The cheap clones break after a few days and the small non-USB-3 did not work at all for me.
> Knowles GV + DragonFly Black delivers insanely good sound quality.



I won’t want to accessories my iPhone too much. If I lose any of them, I won’t get back the same sound unless I get a replacement.

But I’m using a Baseus lightning to audio dongle. Apparent it has a DAC inside, iPhone recognise it as a USB 2 device. And it made the volume louder by 3 to 4 bar, also changes the sound ever so slightly.


----------



## Choy Wei De

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Before he reply
> i have done series RAF too
> 
> its sounds lovely
> ...



With my single 32257 with grey filter, no other electronic component, I play at 70%. Can you estimate how much softer will it be playing at? Not sure how to phrase it correctly. Like 4x32257 70% = 1x32257 30% volume.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Choy Wei De said:


> With my single 32257 with grey filter, no other electronic component, I play at 70%. Can you estimate how much softer will it be playing at? Not sure how to phrase it correctly. Like 4x32257 70% = 1x32257 30% volume.


well

your 100% on RAB32257 will be 25% on Quad series RAB.....simple


----------



## eunice

Choy Wei De said:


> I won’t want to accessories my iPhone too much. If I lose any of them, I won’t get back the same sound unless I get a replacement.
> 
> But I’m using a Baseus lightning to audio dongle. Apparent it has a DAC inside, iPhone recognise it as a USB 2 device. And it made the volume louder by 3 to 4 bar, also changes the sound ever so slightly.



I do get why you want the simplicity, I too only use the DragonFly on longer commutes and such. For normal day to day use, I use the Apple 3.5mm Adapter. The other adapters/DACs I tried all head their downsides. The AAW Capri balanced lightning DAC had a great sound, but sadly some background hiss. But it for sure had a good sound. Also good is the Fiio lightning cable, it also has a better sound than the apple built in, but the Fiio tends to colorize the sound and add some boomieness to the bass.

But I don't use any of these, as I want to be able to plug my 3.5mm jack into my notebook, which only has USB-C. I dream of a future with one adapter for my headphones I can plug into everything. Or is that the past? Just kidding, USB-C should be fine for us audio lovers.


----------



## PinoNL

dhruvmeena96 said:


> https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/XERRhFE
> 
> This one
> My designs are 2 to 3 bore, so it fit like a charm(it fits tight, not like charm...lol..autocorrect)



Thanks. I’ll try them


----------



## cchitsun (Feb 26, 2019)

I encounter a problem here and would like to ask for you guys' advice.
I connected the circuit as the graphs here, but only 31736 has sound. When I disconnected the wire of 31736, it turned out 2389 has sound only.
I am wondering if there s a fault of my connection design.
I tried the drivers before individually, and they all worked.
Thanks in advance for your advice.


----------



## cchitsun

tried uploading again


----------



## wardy

Hello! After being incredibly inspired by the quality content on this thread and spending hours reading through most of it, I have decided to join the forum and partake in it. I've always wanted to create some custom IEMs (I own 1964 A3s) just as a challenge so I looked into it and found this incredible resource. Since then, I have ordered all the components and tooling nessicary to make a couple of pairs.

I can't wait to give it a crack and hopefully going from having no experience to being able to create some decent IEMS I'll post updates throughout the process. 

I have ear impressions being taken tomorrow

Wish me luck!


----------



## Ivan TT (Feb 26, 2019)

SVTong said:


> @Ivan TT ,
> 
> How does your series RAFx4 compare to the GV?  I really like the GV, but the price difference between them is huge.


I don’t have a GV, and yet to put together a CI/WBFK based set together (but I guess it’s more like GQ), so cannot comment, sorry.
I have bellsing 10025 so accounting for the difference 10025 is more coloured, has slightly better extension, but somewhat “wooly” lows and not as resolving/more unnatural upper highs.
I also have certain banned seller’s 8 driver set, I think it uses HODVTEC + WBFK or similar, but it lacks bass and the highs are too sibilant to my liking (no dampers in tubes unfortunately)


----------



## Choy Wei De

eunice said:


> I do get why you want the simplicity, I too only use the DragonFly on longer commutes and such. For normal day to day use, I use the Apple 3.5mm Adapter. The other adapters/DACs I tried all head their downsides. The AAW Capri balanced lightning DAC had a great sound, but sadly some background hiss. But it for sure had a good sound. Also good is the Fiio lightning cable, it also has a better sound than the apple built in, but the Fiio tends to colorize the sound and add some boomieness to the bass.
> 
> But I don't use any of these, as I want to be able to plug my 3.5mm jack into my notebook, which only has USB-C. I dream of a future with one adapter for my headphones I can plug into everything. Or is that the past? Just kidding, USB-C should be fine for us audio lovers.


Every one is just waiting Apple to USB C everything. But they love money too much to remove lightning port.


----------



## Ivan TT (Feb 26, 2019)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> well
> 
> your 100% on RAB32257 will be 25% on Quad series RAB.....simple


On Zishan DSD if single is set to 19, quad will have same volume at around 20-21. I don’t know the scale they use, but it sounds like it’s around 3-4.5dB change for each step, so approximately x2-x3 voltage


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Feb 26, 2019)

Ivan TT said:


> On Zishan DSD if single is set to 19, quad will have same volume at around 20-21. I don’t know the scale they use, but it sounds like it’s around 3-4.5dB change for each step, so approximately x2-x3 voltage


3dB is losses in series of a pair
It is 5dB to 5.5dB loss if we go per conventions

And I think its somewhat 4.5dB to 5dB nearby


----------



## dhruvmeena96

@Ivan TT 

This is Ted Weber's answer ....

I have two 8 Ohm speakers that I can wire either parallel or series to my tube amp for an impedance of either 4 or 16 Ohm. My amp has both 4 and 16 Ohm output taps. Are there any sonic differences or benefits of series over parallel wiring or vice versa? 

Connecting two speakers in parallel is an old trick to smooth out speaker response and enhance the damping of either speaker. HIFI designers took it one step further by connecting two speakers of different sizes in parallel. A speaker has a large impedance increase at its fundamental resonance, and depending on the installation, this can cause the speaker to sound boomy or out of control. By connecting two speakers in parallel, particularly two speakers of different sizes with different resonant frequencies, each speaker will tend to quench or dampen the boominess of the other. Since no two speakers are exactly alike, even two of the same size, that damping will occur, however slight, for any speakers connected in parallel. For speakers connected in series, there appears to be less control, and more of what is called 'back EMF' from the speakers fed back into the output circuit. While that seems rather chaotic, many players prefer the series connection, as it gives them a more textured tone, enhanced breakup, and overall a more desirable tone for guitar work. It's totally subjective, of course, and many factors affect the end result, such as voice coil size, gap energy, closed back/open back, output circuit damping, etc. The best thing to do, in my opinion, is try both arrangements since you have the luxury of impedance tap selection, and go with the configuration you like the best.


So now we must be clear about series tuning

Series gives mechanical point advantage
Parallel gives electrical point advantage

4times surface area with 4 times inductance enhances signal tone by adding distortion from each driver while again keeping distortion level same(smoothened distortion like a dynamic driver)while being harder to drive per every speaker helps in cone/film/diaphragm/membrane breakup. That's what I think you may be referring to dynamics(a inside feeling that speaker can provide even more in texture and detailing).


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Feb 26, 2019)

https://m.aliexpress.com/item/32875...Speaker-For-Knowles-UE-JH-In-Ear-Monitor-IEMs


Sony bass drivers according to images by lunashop
If this is true

We are going outside Knowles and sonion realm


----------



## piotrus-g

dhruvmeena96 said:


> https://m.aliexpress.com/item/32875...Speaker-For-Knowles-UE-JH-In-Ear-Monitor-IEMs
> 
> 
> Sony bass drivers according to images by lunashop
> ...


Nah man, it's Toshiba's driver been mentioned few times here in this thread


----------



## dhruvmeena96

piotrus-g said:


> Nah man, it's Toshiba's driver been mentioned few times here in this thread


Since when Toshiba started making BA

And here I though

Knowles-america
Sonion-europe
Bellsing-china
Sony and tashima electronics-japan
Molex-taiwan
DRDO-indian defense(we do make BA, special army and HAL tejas jet fighter pilot use Custom IEM)


----------



## piotrus-g

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Since when Toshiba started making BA
> 
> And here I though
> 
> ...


https://clarityfidelity.blogspot.com/2016/06/tsst-earnine-en2-iem.html
https://cymbacavum.com/2016/08/24/t...-in-on-the-manufacture-of-balanced-armatures/


----------



## PinoNL

For my first build I want to use the GQ-30783. What damper configuration do you guys use with this driver?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

PinoNL said:


> For my first build I want to use the GQ-30783. What damper configuration do you guys use with this driver?



Horn

7.5mm tube/ 1.5mm ID
2.5mm tube/ 2mm ID
3mm tube/ 3mm ID

Brown damper in 7.5mm tube/ 1.5mm ID tubing at 4mm
Brown damper center should lie at 4mm marker center


----------



## PinoNL

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Horn
> 
> 7.5mm tube/ 1.5mm ID
> 2.5mm tube/ 2mm ID
> ...



Thanks! I’ll keep you informed about my progress


----------



## zern_c (Feb 28, 2019)

Made blue coloured shell today. Any idea how to make the shine brighter? I am trying to get glassy effect like the ones from Noble Wizard.

Any help would be appreciated


----------



## dhruvmeena96

zern_c said:


> Made blue coloured shell today. Any idea how to make the shine brighter? I am trying to get glassy effect like the ones from Noble Wizard.
> 
> Any help would be appreciated



Dip it into resin
Take it out
Do a small UV treatment


----------



## playpunk

zern_c said:


> Made blue coloured shell today. Any idea how to make the shine brighter? I am trying to get glassy effect like the ones from Noble Wizard.
> 
> Any help would be appreciated



Have you used one of the UV lacquers on the shell? That makes the biggest difference


----------



## dhruvmeena96

playpunk said:


> Have you used one of the UV lacquers on the shell? That makes the biggest difference


Do you know any medical UV lacquers


----------



## eunice

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Do you know any medical UV lacquers


Dreve Lack 3, Egger LP/W Lacquer, pro3dure Light-Curing-Lacquer - L1


----------



## Lucas Taboada

zern_c said:


> [Made blue coloured shell today. Any idea how to make the shine brighter? I am trying to get glassy effect like the ones from Noble Wizard.
> 
> Any help would be appreciated



How did you make that color? It's painted? or dyed? can you elaborate on it?

And I would use a UV lacquer too.


----------



## zern_c

Thanks for the help everyone. 



playpunk said:


> Have you used one of the UV lacquers on the shell? That makes the biggest difference


Yup I have since used the egger lacquer, it's at a little better but still not glossy enough. Its almost as if on the ones from wizard at noble audio there is a separate layer of transparent resin on top, it looks so good. Like there is a glass coating or something.

Did I not add enough? I am also gonna try what dhruvmeena96 said to add another layer of resin on top



Lucas Taboada said:


> How did you make that color? It's painted? or dyed? can you elaborate on it?



Its just some resin dye I got from taobao. Used some glitter to try to make some swirly pattern. It was my first try so swirly pattern didnt really come out as I expected it to


----------



## dhruvmeena96

zern_c said:


> Thanks for the help everyone.
> 
> 
> Yup I have since used the egger lacquer, it's at a little better but still not glossy enough. Its almost as if on the ones from wizard at noble audio there is a separate layer of transparent resin on top, it looks so good. Like there is a glass coating or something.
> ...


Foto screen lacquer will do
Glass like lacquer

Mine is a dirty trick


----------



## Bassiklee

Foto screen lacquer??


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Bassiklee said:


> Foto screen lacquer??


https://otoplastikshop.dreve.de/otoplastiken/fotoscreen-4214.html

Yup
Its the glossiest lacquer and is for earmoulds too


----------



## zern_c

Thanks for sharing!!!

Gonna get some after i used finish my egger


----------



## Bassiklee

Hadn't seen that one.  Does it yellow like Lak-3 does?  It says water clear,  but so does the Pro3dure,  and that yellows at least as bad as Lak-3.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Bassiklee said:


> Hadn't seen that one.  Does it yellow like Lak-3 does?  It says water clear,  but so does the Pro3dure,  and that yellows at least as bad as Lak-3.


hmmm that is the lacquer used in medical grade work

the yellow happens because of non inertness in air
For this type of application you have to make a UV autoclave sorta(it doesnt heat) where you can pressurize nitrogen when curing the lacquer

Vacumming and Nitrogen pressurization.

These have the best finishes


----------



## Bassiklee

Egger LP-H doesn't yellow.  I don't use inert gas UV curing.  Yet. No plans to go that route.  Worst case,  I'll use Egger for clear shells until my 500ml of Pro3dure runs out,  then Egger on everything.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Silverprout said:


> I will only gain 3dB with two 29689.
> Sony... 2600$
> 
> 
> ...


That's a EX1000 driver trapped in acoustic calculated resonator for bass pass.

I think it should be 600$ if we take ex1k original mrp plus added stuff


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Mar 3, 2019)

Xymordos said:


> I see, but does phase alignment really affect the sound that much? I mean as long as frequency bands are not completely out of phase it should still sound coherent enough right? Also, usually the less components you use in a crossover the more detailed the sound is, which is why most low pass filters are acoustic. But can high pass filters not be acoustically done? (And I hear that a capacitor high pass filter makes the sound more detailed...)


Yup, they affect....but nearby phase shifts(small shifts) are compensated by human brain ,ear diaphragm and muscle and hearing bone.

The more you correct phase, the more your brain compensation and eardrum unit compensation decreases, reducing the ear drum tightening to a certain extent in prolonged listening session(it doesn't cure pressure issue, just that ear drum relax faster). And due to less brain guessing game, things sounds accurate without headache and fuzzyness.


Annoying phase shifts are those which are not big enough to cancel phases or sound different but also not small enough to get compensated. These create fuzzy information with more brain guessing game and more eardrum and bone realignment.

Second question....yes it can be done

But do you want to hear the truth or want some encouragement.
Or want a bag mixed of both(I can give that to you too)

I know why piotrus-g said he cannot comment(guessing, dont know why exactly).

Its because that thing would be near impossible at DIY level plus pure acoustically boosting is bad idea as a pure acoustic low pass(acoustic low pass is easy to tune due to zero shifts, but a crossover bass done correctly can blow a smaller ID tube bass any day)


Read this



piotrus-g said:


> Well if the phase canceling occurs at higher frequencies you'd be able to hear it - f.e. vocals or highs can sound "strange" or "different" although still sounding undistorted, I guess it has to do a lot with psychoacoustics. I find following:
> 1. Sound with proper phase (no unwanted peaks or dips) across entire spectrum - sounds natural, detailing is good.
> 2. Sound with reversed phase on lows (canceling mid bass to bring sub-bass) - sound is unsettling for me, my mind is fighting to "understand" what's going on
> 3. Sound with one deep (case of many... many CI TWFK or DTEC TWFK comobs), not very noticeable, but there's small impact on final resolution of a monitor. i.e. it's more masking some of details.
> ...


----------



## wardy

Guys, how are you securing your MMCX sockets into your IEMS?
Some of the videos i've seen just use superglue, but with the pressure of connecting the headphone cable to the IEM, surely this would not last long?


----------



## eunice (Mar 4, 2019)

wardy said:


> Guys, how are you securing your MMCX sockets into your IEMS?


Superglue doesn't work.
Just cover the socket with resin. Scratch the area around the socket on the inside of the IEM before covering the socket with resin, that way the bonding will be stronger.


----------



## Bassiklee

I've started using these.  Rather than going through a hole in the shell,  these slide sideways into a U shaped groove in the shell.  So far,  so good.  They cost a little more than the other MMCX connectors I had been using,  but not markedly so. 

I'm also toying with trying the Linum T2 connectors.  We shall see.


----------



## wardy

Bassiklee said:


> I've started using these.  Rather than going through a hole in the shell,  these slide sideways into a U shaped groove in the shell.  So far,  so good.  They cost a little more than the other MMCX connectors I had been using,  but not markedly so.
> 
> I'm also toying with trying the Linum T2 connectors.  We shall see.



Woahhh....
They look perfect, where are they from?


----------



## Bassiklee

I've only seen them at plastics1.com. That said,  they have to be available elsewhere.


----------



## mattmatt

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Foto screen lacquer will do
> Glass like lacquer
> 
> Mine is a dirty trick


Is it medical grade or skin safe?


----------



## Bassiklee

mattmatt said:


> Is it medical grade or skin safe?




Yes,  it's part of the Dreve Optoplastik line of goodies.


----------



## mattmatt

Bassiklee said:


> Yes,  it's part of the Dreve Optoplastik line of goodies.



Oh wait, are we talking about dreve lack 3? I thought some UV varnish used for paper.


----------



## Bassiklee

No,  not lak-3. It's called Fotoscreen.  Different product, part of the same line of products.


----------



## SVTong

Has anyone purchased one of the Soundlink curing chambers?  I'm interested to see if buying would get more reliable results vs a homemade nail light setup.
https://www.aliexpress.com/store/pr...ml?spm=2114.12010612.8148356.3.63cc6a21LHUMJd


----------



## Caluub

SVTong said:


> Has anyone purchased one of the Soundlink curing chambers?  I'm interested to see if buying would get more reliable results vs a homemade nail light setup.
> https://www.aliexpress.com/store/pr...ml?spm=2114.12010612.8148356.3.63cc6a21LHUMJd


I bought this one. 
https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/b2z0SbhO

The results are no different than I got using two nail lamps taped together. The timer for the lamps and the capacity helps a lot with workflow. I can cure more than one piece at a time. It doesn't do anything in terms or curing that you couldn't achieve with a nail lamp though.


----------



## Kulgrinda

Can anybody suggest good sounding GK driver recipe? I was using 2 sound tubes (16 mm on TWFK with green filter and 20 mm on CI) ID 2mm. It sounded ok, but a bit harsh on the upper frequencies. I wish to try something else. One tube maybe?


----------



## alanwcruz

Here's some more playing around with my inkjet printer, trying to get "artificial" wood textures to look good.


----------



## pithyginger63 (Mar 15, 2019)

I know nothing about iem design. But a while ago, I was blown away by the JH Audio Layla, and I attribute my amazement to the Freqphase design, in particular the diagonal directions of the soundstage stood out to me. I'd like to get into designing iems with three primary goals in mind. Firstly, I want to learn about crossovers. Secondly, I want to learn about tubing lengths and phase correction. Thirdly, I want to make something that splits frequency and phase into more bands than the Layla. Where should I start? What's some good measurement software?

I should note, I know nothing about circuits too.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Mar 16, 2019)

pithyginger63 said:


> I know nothing about iem design. But a while ago, I was blown away by the JH Audio Layla, and I attribute my amazement to the Freqphase design, in particular the diagonal directions of the soundstage stood out to me. I'd like to get into designing iems with three primary goals in mind. Firstly, I want to learn about crossovers. Secondly, I want to learn about tubing lengths and phase correction. Thirdly, I want to make something that splits frequency and phase into more bands than the Layla. Where should I start? What's some good measurement software?
> 
> I should note, I know nothing about circuits too.


Dont start with crossovers.

Try implementing single drivers or dual driver single spout.

Learn about tubing, damping.

Then learn about RLC effect in series and parallel to a single driver.

R is resistor
L is inductor
C is capacitor

Then move to GV, HE and GK drivers. They have preassembled crossover.

Well its easy in beginning and is easy till the moderate level of designing.

But then the wall(yes that's a wall and not curve) of difficulties hit after that.



And... Single drivers are amazing if you get tuning right, plus less of hassle.

I have Ety ER4S diy with "series" 200ohm vishay melf resistor.

It is faster than anything I have heard. Even 64audio U18T doesn't come close to this speed of detailing. But it needs a tonne of power to drive....so no no....

Note: lol
OK "series" is when resistor is placed in same line of wire as speaker is.

"Parallel" is shorting(short circuiting) the circuit and placing the component on the short circuit.

First, the no crossover or circuit designs on this thread
Basic ones

And let me tell you, savant diy and @Furco design are better than some flagship roaming around 

Etymotic ER4 DIY
Noble Savant DIY(just a 20ohm resistor)
@Furco GQ+RAB

Try these out.....

Then you can move to slightly complex ones


----------



## pithyginger63

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Dont start with crossovers.
> 
> Try implementing single drivers or dual driver single spout.
> 
> ...


Thanks. 

I'll start with simpler designs as you recommend, which one of those designs you recommended has more capacity for learning? ie more complex?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

pithyginger63 said:


> Thanks.
> 
> I'll start with simpler designs as you recommend, which one of those designs you recommended has more capacity for learning? ie more complex?



Its is 4 people work

@Kulgrinda made it
Original design by @Furco (go to pg206)
Reinvented by @dhruvmeena96 (I tagged myself lol)
Diagram by @eunice 







You can ask him about the sound quality

From my point of view
Noble Savant DIY vs "Most amazing set for mom" or MASM

Its Wider, deeper plus it does the bass that BA drivers are not famous for while keeping itself clean. Sound is less sharper at 2kHz to 3kHz region but everything after than is raised
Well, for me, my mom, dad, old uncle and Mr. @Kulgrinda it was vibrant, detailed. I designed it so it is always be borderline harsh and smooth for every ear possible. 

Techincal point of view.....it is less effected by different amp due to flatter impedance compared to Noble Savant DIY design.

*lemme review it *

Bass: First thing that i hear from it is extension. Bass goes deep. Second thing is the speed of Bass. It does not want to decay but still want to produce lower frequency. Tighter bass response and ability to resolve different bass tones in a stage. RAB driver bass produce a natural delayed bass effect due to longer tubing.

Mid range: That may be a good or a bad thing, but the mid range is too much detailed in the area of 100Hz to 1kHz. this is the most sensitive area of hearing. Vocals are as it is as the recording or sometimes overly done in resolution. this is the bad thing as it reduces the music and increase information....but good thing happens with instruments, as they get vibrant and Tone perfect.

Treble : Simply Airy
Always borderline of sibilant and detailed no matter what music you play


----------



## eunice

Capacitors again: What type of SMD caps to use? For a passive crossover, they need to be non-polarized, right? Or is there a trick (like two polarized in parallel with reversed polarity?)

What type is the best?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

eunice said:


> Capacitors again: What type of SMD caps to use? For a passive crossover, they need to be non-polarized, right? Or is there a trick (like two polarized in parallel with reversed polarity?)
> 
> What type is the best?


AVX caps for being fancy
ELNA silmic II if you require only one and want to look cool
Ceramic is recommended
Tantalum's are generally used


----------



## dhruvmeena96

eunice said:


> Capacitors again: What type of SMD caps to use? For a passive crossover, they need to be non-polarized, right? Or is there a trick (like two polarized in parallel with reversed polarity?)
> 
> What type is the best?


Electrolytic are polarised generally

The oxicap, ceramic etc works fine anyside


----------



## Kulgrinda

pithyginger63 said:


> I know nothing about iem design. But a while ago, I was blown away by the JH Audio Layla, and I attribute my amazement to the Freqphase design, in particular the diagonal directions of the soundstage stood out to me. I'd like to get into designing iems with three primary goals in mind. Firstly, I want to learn about crossovers. Secondly, I want to learn about tubing lengths and phase correction. Thirdly, I want to make something that splits frequency and phase into more bands than the Layla. Where should I start? What's some good measurement software?
> 
> I should note, I know nothing about circuits too.



You can find some information about crossovers here:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/...Jh_bh3fuUBNe2HrQg/edit#heading=h.xq381wckisjn

It gave me general understanding about LP, HP filters, effects different parts make and so on. Good read.


----------



## Kulgrinda

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Its is 4 people work
> 
> @Kulgrinda made it
> Original design by @Furco (go to pg206)
> ...



dhruvmeena96's design was the first build I've done with  adding capacitors and resistors to the chain and I have to say it is really good sounding. Sound is open, detailed, with decent amount of bass and not harsh what is very important for me. But all is stated in dhruvmeena96's review. I think is it true, though I would not mention sibilance in any sentence describing sound of earphones, for me it is a show stopper 

Next is 4xRAB build and maybe 1xRAB since I already own one pair. But I highly doubt sound quality would be sufficient from 1 driver, I'm spoiled already.


----------



## pithyginger63

Kulgrinda said:


> You can find some information about crossovers here:
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/...Jh_bh3fuUBNe2HrQg/edit#heading=h.xq381wckisjn
> 
> It gave me general understanding about LP, HP filters, effects different parts make and so on. Good read.


I loved this article, I've been reading it these past couple days.


----------



## pithyginger63

Has anyone ever worked with Sonion drivers?


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Mar 17, 2019)

@Kulgrinda @Ivan TT @IvanNOON @eunice 
@Xymordos 

New Build
Knowles ED29689 + 20ohms
Knowles RAB32257 + zobel circuit + 1ohms + 0.5ohms

2mm ID





Impedance = 36.41ohms +/- 1ohms @1kHz
High frequency Impedance rise is now flatter
Bass goes deep

Custom Fit or deep fit recommended


----------



## dhruvmeena96

pithyginger63 said:


> Has anyone ever worked with Sonion drivers?


well yes

but they are hard to source out

and i dont know how to use Taobao

Sonion 2354 instead of ED29689 in Etymotic DIY green damper with vent open and 100ohms series
It sounds more tonally correct compared to etymotic

something between ER4SR and ER4XR but better speed and less harshness in treble


----------



## Kulgrinda

dhruvmeena96 said:


> @Kulgrinda @Ivan TT @IvanNOON @eunice
> @Xymordos
> 
> New Build
> ...



How does it sound? How does it compare to your GQ+RAB design?


----------



## ForceMajeure

Kulgrinda said:


> How does it sound? How does it compare to your GQ+RAB design?



Nothing can compare to MOM's haha


----------



## dhruvmeena96

ForceMajeure said:


> Nothing can compare to MOM's haha


LOL True...
Best three drivers, dual bore 
But real credit goes to @Furco

RAB drivers are good tone driver.



Kulgrinda said:


> How does it sound? How does it compare to your GQ+RAB design?


If deep fit is achieved
Something between Harman kardon and diffuse field.

Bass is slightly less compared to Mom version.
Mids are more analytical
The 2kHz to 4kHz is boosted.

Treble is slightly more extended to etymotic er4


----------



## pithyginger63 (Mar 17, 2019)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Its is 4 people work
> 
> @Kulgrinda made it
> Original design by @Furco (go to pg206)
> ...


I've got a couple of questions if you don't mind me asking.

What role does the capacitor and resistor play?

For the GQ driver, how do you get the damper 10mm into the sound tube (I assume that's what happens)?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

pithyginger63 said:


> I've got a couple of questions if you don't mind me asking.
> 
> What role does the capacitor and resistor play?
> 
> For the GQ driver, how do you get the damper 10mm into the sound tube (I assume that's what happens)?



Tecnically:
Resistor in series will drop the decibel, raise the impedance, make the impedance curve peakier
Resistor in parallel will drop the decibel, drop the impedance and flatten the impedance curve

Capacitor in series will high pass, a low amount capacitor sees the low and middle frequency as DC and doesn't let it pass, whereas as high signal pass due to its AC sort of nature
Capacitor in parallel passes the HF back to ground and due to signal balancing act by amp and speaker, it drops the HF and passes low and middle frequency.

Sound wise:
Resistor in series drops the volume, makes it harder to drive but also makes the driver faster and lower distortion plus increases treble
Resistor in parallel drops the volume, but driving factor is easier, increase distortion slightly and make things darker

Capacitor in series is crossover
Capacitor in parallel is crossover




Parallel Capacitor and Resistor i use is a zobel like structure(not pure zobel)
It lowers treble peak, flatten impedance and lower distortion while making the load more flat to amp so amp and the whole setup can work more effectively. The effective working increases depth information, speedier response and slightly more bass information


Note:
Bass and treble needs to mastered carefully. Detailing in bass and treble increases sound-stage. One note bass collapse the depth information and treble peaking and decay collapse the width and depth-air
Mid-range is all about height.

For example, these headphone
Audeze LCD 4 and LCD 2C

Bass notes are fast, way to fast and flat linear to mid-range. This creates a huge stage as mids signal are more feeded to brain, making them sound larger. bass notes creates that black space. Treble on LCD 4 creates bigger air.

HD800 has everything to mids and treble so it produces Hall like staging. HD800s produces better staging

but, what is perfect staging

Not too large, not to small
intimate when a song demands
Life like when song demands
Rounded staging


----------



## pithyginger63

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Capacitor in parallel passes the HF back to ground and due to signal balancing act by amp and speaker, it drops the HF and passes low and middle frequency.


I'm guessing this is kind of a low pass filter?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

pithyginger63 said:


> I'm guessing this is kind of a low pass filter?


Yup, a parallel capacitor is kinda low pass
Add a series resistor and then a capacitor and it becomes RC lowpass


----------



## IvanNOON

dhruvmeena96 said:


> it is 3mm for me
> i used NiceHCK 6mm driver
> but my implementation was crude
> 
> ...



Ripole/dipole presumes open baffle design.
Since DDs backwaves are isolated from the sound outlet it's just sealed push-pull or push-push for IEMs


----------



## IvanNOON

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Its is 4 people work
> 
> @Kulgrinda made it
> Original design by @Furco (go to pg206)
> ...


Tried this with GQ-30710 and no grey damper.
It was pretty good but a bit bright and shouty, so I changed the resistor to 33ohms for more damping and now it's good.

Will try it with GQ-30783 a bit later (a friend has it in IEMs I made for him)


----------



## dhruvmeena96

IvanNOON said:


> Tried this with GQ-30710 and no grey damper.
> It was pretty good but a bit bright and shouty, so I changed the resistor to 33ohms for more damping and now it's good.
> 
> Will try it with GQ-30783 a bit later (a friend has it in IEMs I made for him)


You changed the resistor on RAB right.
Yes it will drop the brightness coming from RAB to compensate GQ. But impedance will be falling down more on HF, which can make bass and mids a little dominant on bad source. I haven't measured it yet.

Well I was going to upgrade this setup with one more RAB(RAB32063) with zobel 
And a whole circuit series resistance of 20ohms

While keeping the dual bore design

If my simulation and design works, it will give more midrange vibrancy and detailing, lower distortion, better management of bass tone, and even larger scale of sound field

RAB DCR =22ohms
GQ DCR= 12.5

Parallel RAB will give me 11ohms

And if GQ is 12 ohms

Its impedance DCR will drop at nearby 5.85

New setup DCR= 5.85ohms
New setup 500= 9.09ohms


Then a series resistance for lowering distortion and protecting over signal from blowing the drivers up

20ohms

DCR=25.85ohms
500Hz=29.09ohms


----------



## pithyginger63 (Mar 18, 2019)

Ivan TT said:


> @dhruvmeena96
> Unfortunately I cannot confirm that series/parallel configuration of RAB-32257 and RAF-32873 is better than all 4 drivers in series, actually quite the opposite.
> 
> I have 2 IEMs based on x4 drivers configuration (both RAB and RAF) before me, initially configured series/parallel and then reconfigured as series only, the latter is much superior sounding, better extension on either side of the spectrum, better dynamics and overall musicality, beating series/parallel configuration hands down.
> ...


If you don't mind me asking, what happens when drivers are wired together in series or in parallel? I'm still new to this

also @dhruvmeena96 is there a specific brand of resistor/capacitor that is best for audio quality?

Thanks!

edit: has anybody aside from piotr played with the round BA yet? It looks to me like it actually has some decent treble extension


----------



## dhruvmeena96

pithyginger63 said:


> If you don't mind me asking, what happens when drivers are wired together in series or in parallel? I'm still new to this
> 
> also @dhruvmeena96 is there a specific brand of resistor/capacitor that is best for audio quality?
> 
> ...


Series increase resistance per frequency, raise current demand so impedance peak can create more treble etc.
It also makes harder to drive
It increase circuit distortion by loading the amp more but decreases watt provided to it. So distortion seems okay till a driving point.
It can give more texture, vibrancy. More toward analog + clarity sound

Parallel decreases impedance but also increase distortion due to more power provided to a set of speaker. Make things cold, analytically sterile but is immune to amp changes. More toward HiFi sound

Parallel and series both divides power to individual driver, so distortion will be always lower than single driver

4x RAB means each RAB plays 25% of its original

Best play is doing series parallel(2 in series and 2 in parallel) so that you get the tonality and volume of single driver while lowering distortion by 1/4.

4xseries RAB produce 1/2 distortion compared to single driver, but adds more protection to power and adds euphonic bass and euphoric treble.

4xparallel RAB produces more distortion because extremely low impedance, so amp gives way more power. But impedance is linear and produce some of the best analytical mids.

Adding 17ohm resistor to 4x parallel RAB is necessary for better volume and sound. It produces 1/3 distortion after added resistance


@Ivan TT @IvanNOON @eunice 

Did a zobel, 5dB L-pad to HODVTEC and 72Hz cutoff with 0.5mm ID 20mm lenght tube. Its is deeper and tighter than Sonion bass drivers.

Zobel and L-pad waste a lot of energy, dropping is overall 10dB, so vent open HODVTEC produces 118dB bass.

I needed a circuit to waste energy before reaching HODVTEC. Since its a high output driver, it will perform better when output is lowered before hand.

True subwoofer

Fearless ACME 8 did a 28mm lenght /0.3mm ID 3D-printed tubing for bass driver. 
I can do a 60mm lenght /0.5mmID tubing for bass driver and will remove crossover.


----------



## Ivan TT (Mar 19, 2019)

pithyginger63 said:


> If you don't mind me asking, what happens when drivers are wired together in series or in parallel? I'm still new to this


In theory - what @dhruvmeena96 said, although I somewhat disagree with some of his statements, but I must also admit that he is much more informed than I am.

In practice, no one really knows as far as sound qualities go as there is very little practical experience out there in terms of running multiples of same drivers in series, I am not even aware of any commercial products existing out there - and the interactions between drivers are uncharted territory.

Parallel configuration will require more current from the amp (or at least an amp with high current output) and will benefit from lower output impedance; series will need higher voltage to produce same SPL, and probably will be more forgiving as far as apm's output impedance goes.

In either case stacking several drivers up improves clarity and details and low frequency response, hence recent emergence of multiple-BA driver IEMs that stack same drivers up.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Mar 19, 2019)

Ivan TT said:


> In theory - what @dhruvmeena96 said, although I somewhat disagree with some of his statements, but I must also admit that he is much more informed than I am.
> 
> In practice, no one really knows as far as sound qualities go as there is very little practical experience out there in terms of running multiples of same drivers in series, I am not even aware of any commercial products existing out there and the interactions between drivers.
> 
> ...


I agree with your statements completely

And about sound, every driver has different behaviour when series'ed or parallel'ed with same driver

But what can you predict is do two driver in series and measure only one. You will see the effect of one driver to other

Same with parallel. Measure only one

If the driver has higher rise in impedance coil and if we series those, then treble would be unbearable in voltage rise.

But if the driver has flatter impedance and lower amount of treble, parallel will make it sound darker


I agree with forgiving sound of series...it is clear and more enjoyable to listen but needs more power.


Parallel doesnt need that much power to go loud. Since amp sees less load, it delivers more power


But if you need more resolution and texture in the simplest way, go for series

And @Ivan TT

You also have a series resonator and series driver produce less air, which increase air sponginess, producing great staging


----------



## Ivan TT

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Parallel doesnt need that much power to go loud. Since amp sees less load, it delivers more power


Help me to clarify my understanding/terminology?
My current understanding is this:
Parallel does not need that much _current_ to go loud, but it needs higher _voltage_.
Series - less current, higher voltage to go loud.
Quick calculations for RAB:
22Ohm - 100mW, about 1.5V, 60mA, this is series/parallel connection or single driver
88Ohm - 100mW, about 3V, 30mA, this is fully series.
I'm not sure what happens to sensitivity when comparing 4 driver arrangements: series/parallel VS. fully series though, will it stay the same?


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Mar 19, 2019)

Ivan TT said:


> Help me to clarify my understanding/terminology?
> My current understanding is this:
> Parallel does not need that much _current_ to go loud, but it needs higher _voltage_.
> Series - less current, higher voltage to go loud.
> ...




First thing

Series Retain same voltage on the circuit but divides the voltage per speaker. Ampere remains the same.
Reverse of battery, as you do a series battery, you gain voltage from each battery

Parallel retain the same voltage on all speaker but divides the ampere
Reverse of battery again, as you do parallel, you gain ampere

Parallel are louder as the voltage is still the same.


Since BA, IEM, earphone and earbud speaker are small, they are generally voltage effected and the amplifier we use are generally voltage based. Bigger speaker needs more power due to more bigger cone is needed to be moved.

So in series, you have less voltage delivered to each and every speaker but overall voltage remains the same

but then comes the impedance in equation. since the impedance graph shows us the behavior of the FR and voltage plus the variable resistance of speaker tells the amp to send more voltage to compensate signal losses on higher peaks of impedance, you get lowered volume and higher rises in impedance points. This thing also happens in Parallel.

On series parallel
you will have the same specs as single driver, but 1/2 ampere and 1/2 voltage, which makes the overall power delivered to each driver to be 1/4 while keeping volume same

on full series
you have the impedance and inductance of other drivers effecting on each other, and the voltage is 1/4 while ampere remains same, which still make the power delivered to be 1/4, but the added impedance and lowered voltage reduces sensitivity

with Objective 2 amp
on RAB32257 x 4 series and series parallel RAB32257

with 1/4th dial of volume dial and 1x unity gain

i think the dB losses are 7dB, but the series seems more quiet in noise floor


----------



## IvanNOON

dhruvmeena96 said:


> You changed the resistor on RAB right.
> Yes it will drop the brightness coming from RAB to compensate GQ. But impedance will be falling down more on HF, which can make bass and mids a little dominant on bad source. I haven't measured it yet.


Bass and mids seem alright to me. The only change was brightness.


dhruvmeena96 said:


> Well I was going to upgrade this setup with one more RAB(RAB32063) with zobel
> And a whole circuit series resistance of 20ohms


I'm not sure if adding another fullrange here is wise, I already feel there's too much overlap in bass and low mids. But that could be because I use GQ-30710


----------



## dhruvmeena96

IvanNOON said:


> Bass and mids seem alright to me. The only change was brightness.
> 
> I'm not sure if adding another fullrange here is wise, I already feel there's too much overlap in bass and low mids. But that could be because I use GQ-30710


I wont dare adding another RAB if it is GQ-30710
and i was going to add the non vented RAB as a true mid-range to fill up the notch here and there in a calculated tube assembly. What i want is lower distortion and more uplifted midrange with vocal body that i can feel. i want the musician to breathe(i want to hear the breathing effect more while keeping tonal balance in check)


----------



## Lucas Taboada

Hello!

I have one GK where the bass is distorting and causing a lot of noises, I guess the driver was defective or I made some mistake in the process 

Anyone has tried to rebuild the GK crossover? it is difficult to unglue the crossover and drivers? Any tips? I was thinking about buying another CI and replace just the bad driver.. do you guys think it is worth? or it is better to spend more and buy another GK? (TFWK is working normal from what I can tell)


----------



## Kulgrinda

Lucas Taboada said:


> Hello!
> 
> I have one GK where the bass is distorting and causing a lot of noises, I guess the driver was defective or I made some mistake in the process
> 
> Anyone has tried to rebuild the GK crossover? it is difficult to unglue the crossover and drivers? Any tips? I was thinking about buying another CI and replace just the bad driver.. do you guys think it is worth? or it is better to spend more and buy another GK? (TFWK is working normal from what I can tell)


I haven't tried dismantling it, but all seems to be very tightly bonded, I doubt you will be able to dismantle crossover and reuse it. But on the other hand CI is much cheaper than GK. Again - if you decide to redo crossover for only one side you might get channel imbalance. 

In your situation I'd buy a new GK if you like the sound. Or switch CI to something better on both sides. I've read several complaints about CIs getting broken after some time, mine are still working though.


----------



## Kulgrinda

Lucas Taboada said:


> Hello!
> 
> I have one GK where the bass is distorting and causing a lot of noises, I guess the driver was defective or I made some mistake in the process
> 
> Anyone has tried to rebuild the GK crossover? it is difficult to unglue the crossover and drivers? Any tips? I was thinking about buying another CI and replace just the bad driver.. do you guys think it is worth? or it is better to spend more and buy another GK? (TFWK is working normal from what I can tell)


Something I accidentally found today (back from 2015):

I did separate the TWFK from the GK - it was a matter of sliding a razor blade between the two drivers. The epoxy they use to hold them together is quite tough! I had to clean the GK's CI off before I could stick the other CI on it. Like I said before, my ears and ear canals are tiny as heck so I had to find a way to make things work.  But with the second CI on it, I still had to deal with the double nozzle issue but sticking a single #12 tube on it wasn't any more difficult than the stock GK setup.

I can't really tell what the crossover that Knowles puts on the GK is - it seems like a first-order crossover of a resistor and a capacitor, but I can't tell which driver it is cutting without slicing the circuit board off the GK, which I'm less willing to do. 

The bass of a double CI combo has been really good - I've been mostly listening to the bass of dynamic drivers and so I wanted the same impact that dynamics have. It is almost to that level, but I'm not sure if there's some resonance issues but the bass and lower mids are a little muddy. But the muddiness might also be because the TWFK isn't providing the air that it usually would.


----------



## ForceMajeure

Lucas Taboada said:


> Hello!
> 
> I have one GK where the bass is distorting and causing a lot of noises, I guess the driver was defective or I made some mistake in the process
> 
> Anyone has tried to rebuild the GK crossover? it is difficult to unglue the crossover and drivers? Any tips? I was thinking about buying another CI and replace just the bad driver.. do you guys think it is worth? or it is better to spend more and buy another GK? (TFWK is working normal from what I can tell)



It shouldn't be too difficult to remove the board from the CI. I did it a while back with an exacto knife just make sure you unsolder the wires before you do so


----------



## PompeyWoods

David Ramirez said:


> I just got my first impressions completed and I was wondering how I go about processing them and trimming the excess off. What parts are needed and what parts should I cut off?


Did you get anywhere with this. I’m in the same boat. Have impressions and kinda clueless as to what to trim off.


----------



## eunice

PompeyWoods said:


> Did you get anywhere with this. I’m in the same boat. Have impressions and kinda clueless as to what to trim off.


1) cut the ear canal right after the second bend. Make sure the cut is a right angle to the direction of the ear canal after the second bend. You want the sound tube to point that direction. You need to be precise here. 

2) place the impressions with the base on a flat surface. Now cut straight down, everything that sticks out your ear. . Put it in your ears to make sure you get a beautiful tear drop shape. These cuts are mostly for the looks, so no need to be precise. 

3) use a soft mesh grid on a dremel to smooth the surface. Especially round the tip of the ear canal, you will need to make a round tip of ear canal for easier insertion/removal. Also significantly soft the thing sticking out in the top part of the ear (forgot the medical name)


----------



## PompeyWoods

Perfect thanks for the tips. I’ll try it one night this week and order some dremel bits.


----------



## eunice

Oh dremel Bits. I must have a million by now.

For the impressions I use https://www.mcear.de/epages/78599304.mobile/de_DE/?ObjectPath=/Shops/78599304/Products/9002 and https://www.mcear.de/epages/78599304.mobile/de_DE/?ObjectPath=/Shops/78599304/Products/9005


----------



## Kiina

Aliexpress seems to be having a sale in a few days so I decided to give it another try and order some stuff. Last time I spend most time on making great looking shells instead of the drivers.
But I'm not 100% sure what to order or use as a starting point. The scary crossover sounds fun but probably won't fit. I'm kinda thinking about using the GQ-30783 and RAB-32257 combo and then trying different filters. I like my FIBAE 2s but sometime I wish for something with a bigger sound stage and better female vocals. Any recommendations for a good base to build on or what to buy?


----------



## eunice

I will try another scary build soon. I today noticed that I used polarized caps (stupid me). So please ignore my opinion on their sound. 

You can use polarized caps but you need to wire two in series with opposite polarity. 

If you use SMD the electronics should fit, 0805 size is pretty much doable for someone with mediocre soldering skills like me. 

If you can fit 2xCI + TWFK, then the scary is not for you. 

I cannot recommend MASM just yet, as it’s not yet built. I have a problem solving the 4.5uF cap.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Kiina said:


> Aliexpress seems to be having a sale in a few days so I decided to give it another try and order some stuff. Last time I spend most time on making great looking shells instead of the drivers.
> But I'm not 100% sure what to order or use as a starting point. The scary crossover sounds fun but probably won't fit. I'm kinda thinking about using the GQ-30783 and RAB-32257 combo and then trying different filters. I like my FIBAE 2s but sometime I wish for something with a bigger sound stage and better female vocals. Any recommendations for a good base to build on or what to buy?


Well, I think I did a build recently where I used GQ 30783 and RAB32257-P183 version

I got my friends FIBAE 3, mine FIBAE 1, warbler prelude, 64audio u18T

Better than F3, F1, warbler prelude....it doesnt come near 64audio, just because of bass and treble reach

FIBAE 3 sounds sharper, clinical and intimate compared to the build. 

FIBAE 1 sounded less vibrant and less extended, but the upper midrange had the same tonality.

Warbler prelude staging times 4x. It can reach Andromeda level soundstage on FLAC files and custom monitor design


----------



## dhruvmeena96

eunice said:


> I will try another scary build soon. I today noticed that I used polarized caps (stupid me). So please ignore my opinion on their sound.
> 
> You can use polarized caps but you need to wire two in series with opposite polarity.
> 
> ...


Building the scary crossover. That is the hardest build. It sounds amazing and sometimes like a high fidelity dynamic driver

You can also pair a SWFK heavy damped type with the TWFK in same tube

Capacitor is 0.8uF capacitor for swfk


----------



## Kiina (Mar 24, 2019)

eunice said:


> If you use SMD the electronics should fit, 0805 size is pretty much doable for someone with mediocre soldering skills like me.
> 
> If you can fit 2xCI + TWFK, then the scary is not for you.



You mean if I can't fit? I just saw your non SMD version a few pages back and I don't think I can build one with SMD just yet as I never tried it before.



dhruvmeena96 said:


> Well, I think I did a build recently where I used GQ 30783 and RAB32257-P183 version



You mean the MASM one but with a P183?


----------



## eunice (Mar 24, 2019)

The scary was my first build not using pre assembled drivers. It did not sound as good as a Knowles GV and it did not sound as good as a Bellsing 6 driver. But, as I found out today, I messed up the build, using polarized caps. With the correct caps, it might sound better. So I will try again using SMD, but it will take a while to get all the components and the time to build it. SMD comes in different sizes 0603 is too small for me to handle but 805 and up is no problem.

I can only spare a few hours on weekends and my primary goal right now is to measure all the drivers I have with impedance and SPL curves, before I use them for the next build.
I will report back.

BTW: White Pro3dure resin looks amazing!


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Mar 25, 2019)

Kiina said:


> You mean if I can't fit? I just saw your non SMD version a few pages back and I don't think I can build one with SMD just yet as I never tried it before.
> 
> 
> 
> You mean the MASM one but with a P183?


Yup
P183 is pretty wired RAB and is easy to use
Making the work faster

It has soundstage depth, more detailing and more controlled treble compared to FIBAE 3

FIBAE 3 offers more vocal maturity and more clinical approach.

FIBAE is U shaped calibrated tuned whereas MASM is U-V shaped iem with tuning going towards vibrancy and contrast with micro detailing

Updates

@Kulgrinda

Since the overall DCR is 7.97 ohms on MASM

Adding a SWFK is easy as pie

SWFK
470nFx2 in series capacitor(235nF)

Tubing is 5mm lenght/2mm ID



But it won't remain MASM anymore




I am still perfecting the MASM [same drivers setup, slightly more air out of treble and slightly more subbass punch, with more vibrant mids(borderline of vibrant and saturated, something like when you see a retina display or Samsung super AMOLED if I go to screen conventions)

Well MASM sounds cool as a name, thanks for giving it a name

I would be changing RAB32257 to RAB32033 for the eardrum hitting bass and more 3kHz(zobel will damp it, but the presence will be more than the 32257, if Knowles graph are correct)

And I will try Sonion 1723(non bassy, stock model) and will tell my experience


----------



## Kulgrinda

What C and R will you be using with RAB32033? RAB32033 in addition to or instead of RAB32257?



dhruvmeena96 said:


> Yup
> P183 is pretty wired RAB and is easy to use
> Making the work faster
> 
> ...


----------



## Kulgrinda

Has anyone tried Bellsing drivers? They are named the same as Knowles, must be close copies. But cost is two or more times less. Are they worth my time?


----------



## eunice

Kulgrinda said:


> Has anyone tried Bellsing drivers? They are named the same as Knowles, must be close copies. But cost is two or more times less. Are they worth my time?


They are good. IMHO their TWFK and CI is as good as Knowles. Their HODVTEC is not as good as Knowles. They have slightly different characteristics though, you should not treat them as 100% identical plug-in replacements.


----------



## Kulgrinda

eunice said:


> They are good. IMHO their TWFK and CI is as good as Knowles. Their HODVTEC is not as good as Knowles. They have slightly different characteristics though, you should not treat them as 100% identical plug-in replacements.


Thanks! I might give Bellsing's CI a try,  looking to build 2xCI + TWFK.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Kulgrinda said:


> What C and R will you be using with RAB32033? RAB32033 in addition to or instead of RAB32257?



Cz=4uF(quad parallel 1uF)
Rz=42ohms



Kulgrinda said:


> Has anyone tried Bellsing drivers? They are named the same as Knowles, must be close copies. But cost is two or more times less. Are they worth my time?



ED
TWFK
CI

These drivers get pretty close to Knowles

WBFK
SWFK

Somewhat near to Knowles treble, slightly brittle


----------



## Xymordos (Mar 25, 2019)

So managed to get my hands on some 14mm planar magnetic drivers. The frequency response is provided by the manufacturer. I tested the impedance of the driver too.

Not sure how to use the driver properly due to that massive dip after 2kHz though.

Stuck just the driver near my ear for a quick listen and the mid range is rather clear, which is a good start.

Edit: Ouch, just noticed its -5db at 20kHz!


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Xymordos said:


> So managed to get my hands on some 14mm planar magnetic drivers. The frequency response is provided by the manufacturer. I tested the impedance of the driver too.
> 
> Not sure how to use the driver properly due to that massive dip after 2kHz though.
> 
> ...


Well you can modify the driver backwave material, front meat material, can make a edge diffraction correction.

Best part is electrical things will remain the same. 

First thing, it has to be open back 
Second thing, movement of air has to be controlled both side 
Third thing, movement of front air has to be captured completely.

i dont think they are on headfi, but they can help you tune planars

one is joppe peelen
second one is Marcus christensen

Joppe makes planar speakers
Marcus makes planar headphone and iem


----------



## jbr1971

Xymordos said:


> So managed to get my hands on some 14mm planar magnetic drivers. The frequency response is provided by the manufacturer. I tested the impedance of the driver too.
> 
> Not sure how to use the driver properly due to that massive dip after 2kHz though.
> 
> ...



Out of curiosity, how does one go about obtaining such drivers? It could be fun trying to use those for my next DIY IEM project.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

jbr1971 said:


> Out of curiosity, how does one go about obtaining such drivers? It could be fun trying to use those for my next DIY IEM project.


Aliexpress

1. Soundlink store
2. chitty store
3. Yuming store


----------



## Xymordos

jbr1971 said:


> Out of curiosity, how does one go about obtaining such drivers? It could be fun trying to use those for my next DIY IEM project.



I got them from Toneking directly on Taobao for around US$75. He doesn't list them but I spoke to the seller and they were willing to offer their IEM's drivers separately.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Xymordos said:


> I got them from Toneking directly on Taobao for around US$75. He doesn't list them but I spoke to the seller and they were willing to offer their IEM's drivers separately.


That's amazing, he sold it directly to you

And the price is cool if it is 75$ a pair.

I have tried toneking bl1, amazing soundstage but three weird vents,will make it worse in future(moisture, dust).


----------



## Xymordos

dhruvmeena96 said:


> That's amazing, he sold it directly to you
> 
> And the price is cool if it is 75$ a pair.
> 
> I have tried toneking bl1, amazing soundstage but three weird vents,will make it worse in future(moisture, dust).



Toneking told me he preferred the front sealed and the back open - guess he wanted it really open so he opened 3 vents. He also suggested I use a dynamic driver for the bass frequencies as he also things the bass drops off quite fast.


----------



## SupremusDoofus (Mar 26, 2019)

Can anyone give me an idea how this combination would sound like?: HODVTEC-31618 + SONION 2389 + TWFK-30017 ?


----------



## Bassiklee

Potentially very good.  Potentially very bad.  More likely to sound good.  What filters, tubing, and dampers are you planning to use?  See my point?  I don't have suggestions for you there,  simply pointing out that it's more than JUST the drivers.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Xymordos said:


> Toneking told me he preferred the front sealed and the back open - guess he wanted it really open so he opened 3 vents. He also suggested I use a dynamic driver for the bass frequencies as he also things the bass drops off quite fast.


Front sealed.....why will you do that
Where will you get sound from

Well the bass drops as the driver is very small in effective area.


----------



## Kiina

I know this probably isn't recommended but has anyone tried using one of those UV-Resins for printing? Like the Wanhao UV-Resin? 500ml is like 40$ and if you use Lacquer over it, maybe you wont get poisoning? Could be a cheap method to try some new stuff if you don't plan on wearing them hours everyday?


----------



## eunice

Just for you to know, soundlinks Ali store has Bellsing 6 driver (1x HODVTEC + 2x TWFK) for under $70 per pair in 2 days (anniversary sale)

That’s a steal, even if you just salvage the drivers.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Mar 27, 2019)

MASM final build update

RAB 32033 with zobel -
16mm tubing(2mm ID)

Cz=4uF
Rz=42ohms

Knowles GQ 30783 -
14.5mm tubing(1.5mm ID) + 2.5mm tubing(2mm ID) + 3mm tubing(3mm ID)
Green damper and grey damper in the center of 14.5mm tubing(corrected)

fitting will be tight as 2mm and 3mm tubes are there


This is final version of MASM
Bass attacks are life-like
Treble is airy and slightly more aggressive (I mean, a touch more)


Soundstage width is improved significantly, depth is improved over previous iteration.


----------



## Kulgrinda (Mar 27, 2019)

GQ+2xRAB did not work for you?

...and some pictures please  Did you do measurement for this setup?



dhruvmeena96 said:


> MASM final build update
> 
> RAB 32033 with zobel -
> 16mm tubing(2mm ID)
> ...


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Mar 27, 2019)

Kulgrinda said:


> GQ+2xRAB did not work for you?
> 
> ...and some pictures please  Did you do measurement for this setup?


MASM is triple driver setup by rule(I did those rule)

I want to get best sound out of three drivers only

And another RAB in parallel dropped the impedance bellow ideal values

5~3ohms..


I dont need that low, plus adding a series resistor in such a setup, makes treble harsh and bass bloom...

I will find another way of doing the quad driver...

Nah, I didn't measure it

Since original was furco, I am estimating response

I dont own a measurement rig...

Using Knowles and sonion pro papers

I will upload pictures soon(preparing for sister's marriage, and Indian ritual and ceremony are pita)


----------



## SupremusDoofus

Bassiklee said:


> Potentially very good.  Potentially very bad.  More likely to sound good.  What filters, tubing, and dampers are you planning to use?  See my point?  I don't have suggestions for you there,  simply pointing out that it's more than JUST the drivers.


Oh ok. Seems like I have a ton of research to do lol.



eunice said:


> Just for you to know, soundlinks Ali store has Bellsing 6 driver (1x HODVTEC + 2x TWFK) for under $70 per pair in 2 days (anniversary sale)
> 
> That’s a steal, even if you just salvage the drivers.



I have seen insanely low prices on taobao. What is the catch on that apart from the fact that you might struggle a lot if you don't know chinese? Anyone have any experience ordering from taobao?


----------



## Ivan TT

SupremusDoofus said:


> I have seen insanely low prices on taobao. What is the catch on that apart from the fact that you might struggle a lot if you don't know chinese? Anyone have any experience ordering from taobao?


Using Chrome's embedded translation feature and using a good forwarding agent (I use cssbuy.com) it's quite simple after initial learning curve.

Been buying stuff from tao for over a year now, as long as you accept that warranty is pretty much non-existent and delivery times are a bit longer compared to ali you can get hold of some sweet bargains or parts not available elsewhere (or priced ridiculously high).

The selection/prices of shells is especially impressive (even limited range ali has is x10-x20 times more expensive), I would not say BA drivers are much cheaper than via Soundlink especially during sales, but I do pick up used ones at ridiculous prices now and then (like 6 RAB-32066 for $16) or some BK drivers $1 each... Dampers are cheaper on tao too by the way.

But I still use soundlink as a primary source for BAs though, just finished absolutely end-of-game sounding 4 driver RAF-32873 set I bought from them


----------



## SupremusDoofus

Ivan TT said:


> Using Chrome's embedded translation feature and using a good forwarding agent (I use cssbuy.com) it's quite simple after initial learning curve.
> 
> Been buying stuff from tao for over a year now, as long as you accept that warranty is pretty much non-existent and delivery times are a bit longer compared to ali you can get hold of some sweet bargains or parts not available elsewhere (or priced ridiculously high).



So nothing fishy is going on that's good to hear. 



Ivan TT said:


> But I still use soundlink as a primary source for BAs though, just finished absolutely end-of-game sounding 4 driver RAF-32873 set I bought from them



Wow, can you share some pics and how you made them? I am a noob in this field and am just getting started. Its all very interesting to me


----------



## Bassiklee

Here's my public service announcement:  don't buy plastic amber jars for resin. I bought twelve of them.  So far,  they've ruined three different resins. While they don't let light in, the color leeches out of the plastic and into the resin. Good times. 

Glass only.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Ivan TT said:


> Using Chrome's embedded translation feature and using a good forwarding agent (I use cssbuy.com) it's quite simple after initial learning curve.
> 
> Been buying stuff from tao for over a year now, as long as you accept that warranty is pretty much non-existent and delivery times are a bit longer compared to ali you can get hold of some sweet bargains or parts not available elsewhere (or priced ridiculously high).
> 
> ...


daammmmmmm

thanks


----------



## ForceMajeure (Mar 27, 2019)

Just a heads up to folks looking to buy cheap drivers from taobao.

Often you could find some cheap dtec and other drivers there, BUT and the real but here is that they usually come from disassembled items (like old hearing aids/headphones) or/and old batches.
The major issue is that they will in many cases not be matching or even not tightly match the target curve of the og drivers. When I talk about old drivers I am even talking of drivers made in the mid and late 2000's...good luck finding matching batches with those.

I even know that some sellers, for an additional fee, have an option to try and sell pairs that match but it doesn't mean they will match the og target curve and it happened to be the case many times....

Basically it's a risk getting those drivers. IMO it's not worth the 10 or 20usd saved on the driver. but that's just me.


There is reason its cheap. IMO unless you plan on training with them or try something it's not worth the risk...since you won't be able to replicate the same iem twice in the future
Having non matching drivers is frustrating since it introduces another layer of potential issues you need to take into account with your build.

edited PS: I am referring here to drivers that are cheaper than the usual price. There are drivers that are sold on taobao with the more or less equivalent cost you can find on soundlink/mouser/digikey etc...those usually are brand new


----------



## Kiina (Mar 27, 2019)

I noticed prices on taobao for BAs aren't all that good. RAB-32257 about 120, which is around 18$. Soundlink is 19$ or 17$ on the sale. If you add all the fees from cssbuy and shipping it's a lot more expensive.

GQ-30783 around 50$ on taobao, 60 on soundlink or 53$ on sale. And for that one I'm not even 100% sure if the taobao one is for 2 like the soundlink. Just as a few examples I looked at. Haven't found stuff like dampers, so not sure how they compare, but I mean they are now 1$ per piece at soundlink, so not sure how much you could save there.

Prices seem to be inflated before the ali sale, so a lot of the deals seem a bit lackluster. But they give out coupons like the 8$ off orders over 50$. With that your 2 pack of GQ-30783 is like 45 bucks or the Bellsing 6 driver for like 62$.

Also apparently they are good for your health and beauty


----------



## Xymordos

ForceMajeure said:


> Just a heads up to folks looking to buy cheap drivers from taobao.
> 
> Often you could find some cheap dtec and other drivers there, BUT and the real but here is that they usually come from disassembled items (like old hearing aids/headphones) or/and old batches.
> The major issue is that they will in many cases not be matching or even not tightly match the target curve of the og drivers. When I talk about old drivers I am even talking of drivers made in the mid and late 2000's...good luck finding matching batches with those.
> ...



That's true - I buy disassembled drivers as they're often 10x cheaper than mouser. Just need to test the drivers to make sure everything is alright before assembling. If you feel REALLY lucky, you can actually buy "cable-cut" KSE1500 from taobao and assemble them yourself. Some sellers on taobao has made their own amps for these KSE1500s too.


----------



## Choy Wei De

Xymordos said:


> That's true - I buy disassembled drivers as they're often 10x cheaper than mouser. Just need to test the drivers to make sure everything is alright before assembling. If you feel REALLY lucky, you can actually buy "cable-cut" KSE1500 from taobao and assemble them yourself. Some sellers on taobao has made their own amps for these KSE1500s too.



 Cable cut you mean the driver with the wires still attached to it?


----------



## Xymordos

Choy Wei De said:


> Cable cut you mean the driver with the wires still attached to it?



Its the driver + cable, but the cable is cut in half - not sure why. Some Taobao sellers are selling these in big batches.


----------



## Choy Wei De

Xymordos said:


> Its the driver + cable, but the cable is cut in half - not sure why. Some Taobao sellers are selling these in big batches.



The seller i’m buying from does sell the driver with wires. But I have problem soldering the wire to MMCX. So I decide to the driver without wire and the MMCX soldered with the wire instead.


----------



## Xymordos

Choy Wei De said:


> The seller i’m buying from does sell the driver with wires. But I have problem soldering the wire to MMCX. So I decide to the driver without wire and the MMCX soldered with the wire instead.



I'm quite sure you shouldn't solder the KSE1500 wire onto an MMCX...


----------



## Choy Wei De

Xymordos said:


> I'm quite sure you shouldn't solder the KSE1500 wire onto an MMCX...



Sorry, I mean the normal knowles drivers.


----------



## ForceMajeure

There are rab 32257 that come pre wired from knowles. iirc even soundlink has them


----------



## ninjadoc

I have to ask since I'm ordering from Aliexpress - what components to you use for the Noble Savant DIY?
I'm going to try to do a MOM first since it is my first attempt. 
My soldering skills are ok - I build custom mechanical keyboards (check geekhack.org) since I know everyone here likes to build stuff. 
If someone feels MOM is not the first set to try = please comment.
Last question is earphone shells - which ones should I buy? Until I see how much building these interests me I'm not going to try making the molded ones. I don't want to fall all the way into the rabbit hole of custom IEM;s.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

ninjadoc said:


> I have to ask since I'm ordering from Aliexpress - what components to you use for the Noble Savant DIY?
> I'm going to try to do a MOM first since it is my first attempt.
> My soldering skills are ok - I build custom mechanical keyboards (check geekhack.org) since I know everyone here likes to build stuff.
> If someone feels MOM is not the first set to try = please comment.
> Last question is earphone shells - which ones should I buy? Until I see how much building these interests me I'm not going to try making the molded ones. I don't want to fall all the way into the rabbit hole of custom IEM;s.



ED29689 + 20 ohms resistor 
2mm length clearance from spout -> Green Damper -> 3mm length towards the eardrum
(2mm ID tube)

ED30761
1.5mm length clearance from Sound outlet -> Red Damper -> 5.5mm length towards the eardrum
(2mm ID tube)

The tonality shifts due to rising impedance of this design. if paired with bad amp, then you will get honky mids(Not that much annoying, by the way)
low impedance source recommended 

different type of resistor affect the sound
different specs of resistor affect the fine tuning

i use precision wire wound
some uses MELF

Precision wire wound is softer and more expansive, due to its slight inductance, which sorta smooths out micropeaks and treble harshness, and quietens things out, but i don't have any scientific claims as such
MELF resistor tends to go more direct and straightforward on signal


plus its better to have deep insertion or custom on noble savant diy

ED29689 can be replaced by Sonion 2354 with air pressure vent closed
that is more ideal as it has less rising impedance all over graph and sorta better extension.


for shell
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/DIY...959.html?spm=a2g0s.8937460.0.0.8a0f2e0e4zFEOf


as you have build mechanical keyboard, you would be knowing where to source out PCB design, its better to have a PCB for design, as it would be easier to debug and will look cleaner and meaner from inside


as for MOM, i dont know which iem design it is
i know MASM(Most amazing set for mom)


----------



## ninjadoc

dhruvmeena96 said:


> ED29689 + 20 ohms resistor
> 2mm length clearance from spout -> Green Damper -> 3mm length towards the eardrum
> (2mm ID tube)
> 
> ...


----------



## ninjadoc

Thank you.
Somewhere in my search a few called MASM MOM.
MASM was the one I was referring to.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

ninjadoc said:


> Thank you.
> Somewhere in my search a few called MASM MOM.
> MASM was the one I was referring to.


difference between MASM and Noble Savant DIY

just a point of view(Take it as a grain of salt)
Noble Savant DIY is amazing set of piece in recreating the sound stage because it is Round like etymotic stage in structure, but expanded a lot in all direction while keeping the intimacy. from round, i mean things can pan to the back of head and above of head with ease. soundstage is referred to the space between in the instrument. it is a tonally pleasing and correct device but higher impedance amp can make the mids honky and treble brittle because impedance rise happens like a gradual increase from 500Hz all the way to 20khz in gradual rise while having peak in 2kHz. Bad amp will make lower mids honky, 2kHz glare bloom effect and treble peak worse.

DCR = 11.4ohms
Imp@200Hz = 12.9ohms
Imp@500Hz = 15.4ohms
Imp@2.5kHz(peak)= 28ohms


MASM is what i can say about less is more and my gem. Way flatter impedance, way more resolution(Leagues ahead for a IEM having RAB in my designs till now). Extension is higher and its like the whole music has got a very nice sharp filter and scale filter with tone correction. It sounds like DSP applied to a @Furco orignal GQ + RAB(It started from his design.....refer page 206). Soundstage is more on mids side rather than treble or bass side. So it creates something like Audeze mids. Bass is extended and is of good speed but mids shine here and tweeter is there to assist the response reach. But i think Savant is better for mixing as it is like Etymotic on certain music. Mine is like a vibrance effect


----------



## SVTong

@Ivan TT,  What did you do for your RAF build?  Series wiring?  Vents open or closed?  Dampers?  I just wired up a pair of quad RAFs, and I'm debating on if I should vent them or not.


----------



## eunice

SVTong said:


> @Ivan TT,  What did you do for your RAF build?  Series wiring?  Vents open or closed?  Dampers?  I just wired up a pair of quad RAFs, and I'm debating on if I should vent them or not.



Series seems to be @Ivan TT  preferences.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/home-made-iems.430688/page-559#post-14803240
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/home-made-iems.430688/page-547#post-14769920

But @Ivan TT : How did you do the tubing, all 4 in one larger tube and then into a smaller tube?

Did you try the Zobel?

I would love to try it after finally building MASM.


----------



## Ivan TT (Mar 29, 2019)

SVTong said:


> @Ivan TT,  What did you do for your RAF build?  Series wiring?  Vents open or closed?  Dampers?  I just wired up a pair of quad RAFs, and I'm debating on if I should vent them or not.



Here’s RAB build, which is identical to RAF (of which I don’t have photos).

4 drivers are glued up together using B7000 glue, soldered in series. RAFs don’t come prewired, but are much easier and safer to solder compared to RABs, I used Estron LITZ wires and 4% silver solder.

Coupling tubes are 2mm ID 3.5 OD (thin one) and stretched 3mm ID (I believe, don’t have it handy to measure). Large tubes are pulled over drivers spouts and sealed using B7000 glue, small tubes glued into large ones using Loctite:












Drivers have their black fabric tuning filters removed as I am a bass head and bass is ridiculous with filter removed both on RAB and RAF, maybe only just a bit lacking in subbass compared to CI. I recommend tuning to your preference before you glue drivers in permanently, starting with them on and if bass is lacking remove one by one until satisfied.
Shells nozzles are filed to accomodate tubing, I also discovered (by accident) that tubing should terminate about half-way into the nozzle, this creates wonderful upper HF uplift on par with WBFK (maybe just a fraction less).
Green damper goes into tubes (I plan to try red too but I prefer warm sound, for some brown would provide more HF) and they are glued (or rather sealed) in using B7000 glue:






RAB and RAF builds together, this design is codenamed “4some” 






I am still unsure which I prefer, RAF is more vivid and a bit V-shaped compared to RAB, RAB is more linear but has better resolution/details. Both are of End of Game sound quality level I believe.

All drivers sourced from Soundlink, shells from Tao, tubing from Tao and local home improvement store.



eunice said:


> Did you try the Zobel?


Not yet, but have breadboard set up, 3.5mm in and out, x4 trimpots and ton of caps, just need to find time to experiment...


----------



## SVTong

Thanks for the write up - that's exactly what I was looking for.  I should have my quad RAF assembled and shelled this weekend


----------



## Ivan TT

But RAB absolutely shines in 2 driver in series configuration, I call this design “DP” as it goes really deep into the ear canal 

RAB has more slam and LF/HF density/extension in 2 driver in series than RAF in 4 driver configuration, at the expense of resolution/details where 4 driver sets are superior.

Should be able to take photos of internal design later on as ordered RABs to do 2 driver RAB set, but here’s some eye candy for you for now:


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Mar 29, 2019)

Ivan TT said:


> But RAB absolutely shines in 2 driver in series configuration, I call this design “DP” as it goes really deep into the ear canal
> 
> RAB has more slam and LF/HF density/extension in 2 driver in series than RAF in 4 driver configuration, at the expense of resolution/details where 4 driver sets are superior.
> 
> Should be able to take photos of internal design later on as ordered RABs to do 2 driver RAB set, but here’s some eye candy for you for now:


Nice....
It looks amazing(universal to the core)

But don't you think dual wire braid is weak.

Because in my experience dual braids didn't last that much
All of them got broken from the earpiece wire sleeve(metal sleeve in your design).

The black one seems fine but I am worried for your silver one(I have bad times with loose dual braid or twist cable)


And my dual braid means dual from y split to earpiece


----------



## Elnurjin

Hello guys. Did anyone use RAB-32257 (Bellsing) and GK-31732 together? Did anyone have experience in reworking the crossover for this stuffing?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Elnurjin said:


> Hello guys. Did anyone use RAB-32257 (Bellsing) and GK-31732 together? Did anyone have experience in reworking the crossover for this stuffing?


Its better you buy Knowles RAB because I have on bellsing RAB which stopped working plus RAB are not that expensive.


I have tried RAB32257 with DWFK, ED, GQ where RAB was zobelled and operated as a full range tone driver

RAB in my experience, with crossover, doesnt work that great

I will try GK by the way

By the way, I use RAB to cover up the missing response from other driver. As it has 3kHz peak and ED/GQ has 2.2kHz peak, it equates and give the gentle hump with 2.5kHz nearby peak, which sounds ideal as the rise of response become less edgy and more spread.

RAB also takes care of bass needs.


So my suggestion is design the GK first, find the things missing in it, and then add a RAB driver with specific parallel RC or zobel circuit to compensate the response cons.


----------



## Elnurjin

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Its better you buy Knowles RAB because I have on bellsing RAB which stopped working plus RAB are not that expensive.
> 
> 
> I have tried RAB32257 with DWFK, ED, GQ where RAB was zobelled and operated as a full range tone driver
> ...


I now have this set on my hands ... I used to use the GK, but I did not have enough bass. I bought a RAB, thought with this driver it would be better bass.


----------



## eunice (Mar 31, 2019)

Elnurjin said:


> I now have this set on my hands ... I used to use the GK, but I did not have enough bass. I bought a RAB, thought with this driver it would be better bass.



Something to think about: if you would dampen the highs of the GK and turn up the volume, you will have more bass. The GK itself really has enough bass, more than enough. The weakness of the GK is in the mids.
The main issue with bass is mostly fit and tuning.

If your issue is with distortion in the bass, then adding a driver might help you. But adding a different bass driver to the GK without creating weird frequency overlap and cancellation is very hard. 

But play around, you might be lucky.


----------



## Elnurjin

eunice said:


> Something to think about: if you would dampen the highs of the GK and turn up the volume, you will have more bass. The GK itself really has enough bass, more than enough. The weakness of the GK is in the mids.
> The main issue with bass is mostly fit and tuning.
> 
> If your issue is with distortion in the bass, then adding a driver might help you. But adding a different bass driver to the GK without creating weird frequency overlap and cancellation is very hard.
> ...


Did you add the mid frequencies of the GK driver? by adding an additional driver.


----------



## eunice

Elnurjin said:


> Did you add the mid frequencies of the GK driver? by adding an additional driver.


I switched to the GV which has better mids. I played around with different configurations, but I did not come up with anything sounding remotely as good as the GV. Now I am in the process of building the various recipes in this thread (I built the scary, currently building the MASM and 4xRAF).

But building and tuning an existing recipe is already very challenging, it took me quite a while to even consistently build simple builds with pre assembled drivers like the GV, GK or Bellsing 6 way.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Mar 31, 2019)

Elnurjin said:


> I now have this set on my hands ... I used to use the GK, but I did not have enough bass. I bought a RAB, thought with this driver it would be better bass.


I you have done GK.

Give me the tube size you used for both of the driver set(TWFK and CI)

I will tell where and how to fit RAB

The condition is that GK should work and sound nice(except for the bass not being prominent in your ideal set)

But first

Cz=4.6uF
Rz=41ohms

Zobel for RAB, so that the treble from RAB doesnt effect the peaks of GK, but lift the treble base for more vibrancy.

Give me tube and damper details, so that I can give RAB tube details


@eunice

Adding drivers to existing recipe is hard
But adding a full range is comparatively simple compared to changing crossovers, which is pita(pain in the ass)

RAB with zobel from my experience can be added to most of the setup.

But its hit and trial, as some already sounds good and RAB can spoil the so called preferred signature for more technical superiority

Well, are you building 4xRAF series?
Its euphoric, something tizzy in vocals which gives it a different sorta bite.

Guitar plucks are life like

Otherwise, too hard to drive
Even O2 amp with AGDR mods struggles, as the opamps heats up, playing 4 series driver


----------



## Ivan TT

eunice said:


> Bellsing 6 way.


How are you finding it, sound wise?


----------



## eunice

Ivan TT said:


> How are you finding it, sound wise?


It is very very good. Knowles GV has slightly better lower mids, something the Bellsing is lacking a little. But highs and bass are slightly better on the Bellsing 6. I did not like the Bellsing 5, but the Bellsing 6 is really good.

I think if your are into flat/neutral the Knowles GV has a slight edge, but it needs to be damped heavily (yellow/red).  If you are into slightly (very slightly) V shaped/fun tuning the Bellsing 6 has a slight edge. It does not need to be damped that strong (I use orange/white) and is a little easier to drive as a result.

Price wise, they are about the same on Ali, but in today’s anniversary sale the Bellsing 6 is under 70$, which is a steal IMO.


----------



## Elnurjin

dhruvmeena96 said:


> I you have done GK.
> 
> Give me the tube size you used for both of the driver set(TWFK and CI)
> 
> ...


I have a tube with a diameter of 2mm and 3mm. There are also red and white filters. I will insert all the stuffing into custom cases.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Elnurjin said:


> I have a tube with a diameter of 2mm and 3mm. There are also red and white filters. I will insert all the stuffing into custom cases.


Lenght please....
For 2mm and 3mm tubes


----------



## eunice

Red and white will give you a brighter signature. Bass heads like me need stronger damping. You can try red on TWFK and white on CI, but if you can, go for something like Orange on CI.

I know I’m probably not the majority here, but I like bass and from your comment I guess you‘re more like me.


----------



## mattmatt

Hey, any suggestions with curing a solid black shell? Been having troubles with mine


----------



## Elnurjin

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Lenght please....
> For 2mm and 3mm tubes


I did not know that the length strongly affects the sound ... I wanted about 15-20 mm ...


----------



## eunice

What resin? I have fotoplast black and apart from having to cure 50% longer there are no issues.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

eunice said:


> Red and white will give you a brighter signature. Bass heads like me need stronger damping. You can try red on TWFK and white on CI, but if you can, go for something like Orange on CI.
> 
> I know I’m probably not the majority here, but I like bass and from your comment I guess you‘re more like me.


That setup of damper is for SCARY as CI are too much powerful

Here it is okay

Plus @eunice is right

I have done green on TWFK
Brown on CI


----------



## Elnurjin

eunice said:


> Red and white will give you a brighter signature. Bass heads like me need stronger damping. You can try red on TWFK and white on CI, but if you can, go for something like Orange on CI.
> 
> I know I’m probably not the majority here, but I like bass and from your comment I guess you‘re more like me.


I only have white and red filters ...


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Mar 31, 2019)

Elnurjin said:


> I did not know that the length strongly affects the sound ... I wanted about 15-20 mm ...


So that means

15mm for TWFK white filter
20mm for CI red filter

Simple

Then add a 17.5mm tubing for RAB
With zobel and zero damper

RAB32257 with the values I mentioned in previous post.



Or

Go @eunice way

CI with white
TWFK with red


----------



## eunice

Elnurjin said:


> I only have white and red filters ...


Which is why I suggested to flip them, white on CI and Red on TWFK. The CI has some shaky mids which improve when damped, but apart from that you should be fine with white on CI and red on TWFK. 
What I do is I insert the dampers after assembling everything and then you can swap the dampers later. There is a damper tool for that; but if you are carefully (!) you can also remove dampers with pointy tweezers.


----------



## mattmatt

eunice said:


> What resin? I have fotoplast black and apart from having to cure 50% longer there are no issues.


I'm using a clear fotoplast dyed with black.


----------



## Elnurjin

dhruvmeena96 said:


> So that means
> 
> 15mm for TWFK white filter
> 20mm for CI red filter
> ...


Crossover do not need to change? RAB connect directly to the connector?


----------



## eunice

mattmatt said:


> I'm using a clear fotoplast dyed with black.


I guess it depends on the dye then. If it’s blocking UV too much, it’s not gonna work.


----------



## mattmatt (Mar 31, 2019)

eunice said:


> I guess it depends on the dye then. If it’s blocking UV too much, it’s not gonna work.


Are you also dying your resin or it was purchased black?


----------



## eunice

mattmatt said:


> Are you also dying your resin or it was purchased black?


I purchased it black. I started expirementing with Pro3dure opaque white resin, which is very good and looks awesome. But I don't think they have black opaque.


----------



## mattmatt

eunice said:


> I purchased it black. I started expirementing with Pro3dure opaque white resin, which is very good and looks awesome. But I don't think they have black opaque.



Does Dreve have a black resin? Been wanting to try out their lacquer


----------



## eunice

mattmatt said:


> Does Dreve have a black resin? Been wanting to try out their lacquer


Yes, I use Dreve Fotoplast black. I buy from mcear.de


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Elnurjin said:


> Crossover do not need to change? RAB connect directly to the connector?


No need to change GK

RAB is parallel to GK while acting as full range

You need to attach zobel though

But its better to go @eunice route


----------



## Ivan TT

eunice said:


> I did not like the Bellsing 5, but the Bellsing 6 is really good.


Much appreciated, I liked the sound of Bellsing 5 and already bought 6, which seems to be a right move.
Bass head here too, so was not sure how DTEC will fair against CI in Bellsing 5.


----------



## Ivan TT (Apr 1, 2019)

Here's the best sounding x2 series RAB 32257 set I built so far, including links.

Shell and general approach would work for both RAB and RAF drivers.

Drivers, 2mm ID tubing and dampers sourced from Soundlink on Aliexpress:

https://soundlink.aliexpress.com/store/830007?spm=2114.11010108.1000002.18.650c649bF38fhf

Shells are dirt cheap, they also click locked (perfect for testing) and come with cable strain relief (I installed mmcx sockets sourced from tao though).
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Aip...991.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.27424c4dxQ4Idh

Cable, I find this one sounds best with RAB/RAF drivers:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/New...672.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.27424c4dJq6J2G

B7000 glue

Tubing is cut halfway into the nossle, this created nice HF uplift. Green, maybe even red damper, foam T300 tips. I remove black cloth dampers to get a bit more bass.

Cheap, easy to source parts, sounds great - perfect first built for those who are still sitting in the fence 



Spoiler: Phtots



























Last photo has Zobel breadboard in background


----------



## PinoNL

Ivan TT said:


> Here's the best sounding x2 series RAB 32257 set I built so far, including links.
> 
> Shell and general approach would work for both RAB and RAF drivers.
> 
> ...



Looks great! What size tubing did you use?


----------



## Ivan TT

PinoNL said:


> Looks great! What size tubing did you use?


Thanks!
2mm ID, 3mm OD (maybe 3.1-3.2, not sure exact size as label is lost and I have a few)


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Ivan TT said:


> Here's the best sounding x2 series RAB 32257 set I built so far, including links.
> 
> Shell and general approach would work for both RAB and RAF drivers.
> 
> ...


Man


This looks amazing 

By the way, what zobel config are you using.

Is it typical 500Hz standard or custom spec with specific capacitor and resistor to tune to your preference
Or is it DCR standard zobel(inductance remain same mostly in dynamic or also in BA, just slight deviation)


Well, I can have 2 series RAB with zobel and a horn(smart move, respect, cutting tube at half point of the shell nozzle lenght)

How do you describe sound though.


And @Ivan TT 

I was asking a senior, electrical professor about series parallel and speaker in general.

And I came to a conclusion

If you parallel a single RAB to "quad series RAB" with 5ohm resistor in series with whole circuit

You will retain the series RAB sound(more signal to more impeding part circuit, hence becoming main driver and putting other RAB as assistant driver), flatter and lower impedance, and lower distortion

But that happens electrically and the issue is tubing. Since your design consist of resonator for quad RAB

Adding another RAB would require separate 2mm tube which will behave separately compared to your setup.

Hmmm, can you spread some light on this.....


----------



## PinoNL

Ivan TT said:


> But RAB absolutely shines in 2 driver in series configuration, I call this design “DP” as it goes really deep into the ear canal
> 
> RAB has more slam and LF/HF density/extension in 2 driver in series than RAF in 4 driver configuration, at the expense of resolution/details where 4 driver sets are superior.
> 
> Should be able to take photos of internal design later on as ordered RABs to do 2 driver RAB set, but here’s some eye candy for you for now:


Can’t wait to see the inside of these earphones


----------



## dhruvmeena96

PinoNL said:


> Can’t wait to see the inside of these earphones


He actually posted with different shells


----------



## Xymordos

The planar drivers are a major pain to tune -  I tested it with a 15mm length x 2mm diameter tube, if you leave the back port open, you get the red line, if you block the back port (probably really not recommended), you get the green line...Due to the complete suck out in the treble, I probably will need to plug up the treble with some BA drivers.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Xymordos said:


> The planar drivers are a major pain to tune -  I tested it with a 15mm length x 2mm diameter tube, if you leave the back port open, you get the red line, if you block the back port (probably really not recommended), you get the green line...Due to the complete suck out in the treble, I probably will need to plug up the treble with some BA drivers.



First of all
you will need reverse horn where you can capture all the air moved by planars to the ear drum(and it has to be smooth and not tappered)

second, the open back behaviour has to be controlled by some damping

Like 0.5mm felt or foam(if you can get any)

Closing and opening these won't help.


----------



## PinoNL (Apr 1, 2019)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> He actually posted with different shells



I know but I was wondering how much space there’s left in these shells. Was looking at these shells myself


----------



## Xymordos

The planar is actually too big to work with - 14.2mm barely fits it in the shell. The back already had damping but I added some foam to flatten the response a bit more. Though the huge dip in the treble was already apparent in the graph provided by the manufacturer so I guess it can't be fixed.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Xymordos said:


> The planar is actually too big to work with - 14.2mm barely fits it in the shell. The back already had damping but I added some foam to flatten the response a bit more. Though the huge dip in the treble was already apparent in the graph provided by the manufacturer so I guess it can't be fixed.


At least try reaching Toneking BL1 standard in first place.

Plus, all planar iem suffer from treble backlash.

First, try a little more harder on planar
Try thin thermolam sheet, as the back wave damper


Well BA can be ED29689+ desired capacitor high pass + 10ohms resistance can be the tweeter.

Or you can run a full range RAB32063 with zobel. It will fill up the gaps perfectly in the response


----------



## Xymordos

dhruvmeena96 said:


> At least try reaching Toneking BL1 standard in first place.
> 
> Plus, all planar iem suffer from treble backlash.
> 
> ...




Just a question, if you damp the back further, wouldn't it start behaving like a dynamic driver? I tried damping it with foam and it started to give me that V shaped response. Toneking didn't use any damping at the back, and agreed that I should use a larger diameter tubing for better results. 

Also, after checking the fitting of the driver in the shell, I can't use a dynamic for bass - So I'm gonna use a Sonion 37AP015 for the bass instead since that's a driver I have spare lying around and fits. I'm going to use the Knowles GD driver for highs as I bought a ton of them from Taobao before. Need to save the RAB drivers for the config you suggested to you earlier, didn't buy spare RAB drivers.

A question for you since you have the Toneking BL1, does it distort easily?


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Apr 2, 2019)

Xymordos said:


> Just a question, if you damp the back further, wouldn't it start behaving like a dynamic driver? I tried damping it with foam and it started to give me that V shaped response. Toneking didn't use any damping at the back, and agreed that I should use a larger diameter tubing for better results.
> 
> Also, after checking the fitting of the driver in the shell, I can't use a dynamic for bass - So I'm gonna use a Sonion 37AP015 for the bass instead since that's a driver I have spare lying around and fits. I'm going to use the Knowles GD driver for highs as I bought a ton of them from Taobao before. Need to save the RAB drivers for the config you suggested to you earlier, didn't buy spare RAB drivers.
> 
> A question for you since you have the Toneking BL1, does it distort easily?


Nope it doesn't

Actually it need a lot of power to actually sound good.

Actually make the planar driver as the bass and mids driver and use other driver to do lower treble/upper mids and treble


----------



## Shartundra

I am in the process of ordering the materials and pieces to make my first pair of custom fit IEMs. I am planning on using Dreve Fotoplast for the shells and I was wondering whether it is possible to reuse the semi-cured resin which is poured out from the shells? Thank you.


----------



## eunice

Shartundra said:


> I am in the process of ordering the materials and pieces to make my first pair of custom fit IEMs. I am planning on using Dreve Fotoplast for the shells and I was wondering whether it is possible to reuse the semi-cured resin which is poured out from the shells? Thank you.


It depends on the resin, with Fotoplast, pro3dure and Egger you can reuse it without problems. I just pour it back in the bottle.


----------



## Xymordos

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Nope it doesn't
> 
> Actually it need a lot of power to actually sound good.
> 
> Actually make the planar driver as the bass and mids driver and use other driver to do lower treble/upper mids and treble




Wouldn't the planar work pretty well as a super tweeter too? The extension is pretty good from the graphs. The bass is pretty terrible...


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Xymordos said:


> Wouldn't the planar work pretty well as a super tweeter too? The extension is pretty good from the graphs. The bass is pretty terrible...


i dont know what sort of calibration you are using.....but inferring from your graph, i can see a good bass mids and super treble.... the issue is in upper mids and lower to mid treble
well, i dont know what sort of interaction the driver is showing with the shell and tube you are using, but planars are well know for bass energy distribution and electrostatic is know for pristine treble.

Well, if your planar is showing good treble response(well graph also shows that), then just go for it. Get a breadboard and try it as HF and LF driver. That would be easier.

Planar working is distributing all the bands to all the surface, so overall excursion(Load on diaphragm) on is reduced, which helps in getting more thinner and lighter in diaphragm, compared to dynamic driver. Electrostatic is all about signal and moves according signal principle, devoid of magnetic factors.

Planar reduced diaphragm actually makes it better bass driver due to distortion factors.

That is all theory, and it can be different in small package planars(well i haven't tried it yet).

So, if i can have all the data or a clear data, i can make a much verified statement from my side


----------



## Senor CIEM

Hello!

Talking bout the Bellsing 5+6way:
They seem its just a GK and a GV + TWFK/SWFK added. You maybe know which one?
And anyone maybe knows the values and diagram for the Bellsing 5+6 to rebuild it with Knowles quality? Or how and what to add on a GK + GV?

What would make more sense: add a TWFK or a SWFK to a GK build for getting a better stereo image and more "clarity" feeling like the GV has.
So the question is if a GK+TWFK/SWFK will sound "better" as a stock GV, with this kind of mid lag. I had reviews with some people and the difference from GK to GV is not that much, so I'm looking how to upgrade both, to make it easier to distinguish.

Thank you!


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Senor CIEM said:


> Hello!
> 
> Talking bout the Bellsing 5+6way:
> They seem its just a GK and a GV + TWFK/SWFK added. You maybe know which one?
> ...


SWFK with 0.940uF capacitor
And a GV or GK

Not sure

It can be DFK/DWFK and SWFK to make up two TWFK with crossover simplicity's

You can pair SWFK with any thing and with capacitor lying between 0.5uF to 1.5uF, according to taste and your calcultions


----------



## Ivan TT

dhruvmeena96 said:


> By the way, what zobel config are you using.


Tested Zobel network, 55Ohm 5uF (should be 5.5 but tricky to source) on dual RAB in series, 100Ohm (should be 110Ohm) and 2.5uF on quad in series, arranged on breadborad so that I can bring Zobel in and out using two wires. 
Results are... inconclusive and strange.
The effect on dual in series is subtle, but noticeable: wider more 3D soundstage, more natural convincing sound overall and quite improved bass extension (taking it into almost CI territory), on quad it's more subtle (including 55Ohm/5uF configuration). No effect on Bellsing 5 at all (tested out of curiosity).
I'm not sure if I like it or not, but the difference is there, even if ever so subtle.
Will need to listen to the effect more.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Apr 3, 2019)

Ivan TT said:


> Tested Zobel network, 55Ohm 5uF (should be 5.5 but tricky to source) on dual RAB in series, 100Ohm (should be 110Ohm) and 2.5uF on quad in series, arranged on breadborad so that I can bring Zobel in and out using two wires.
> Results are... inconclusive and strange.
> The effect on dual in series is subtle, but noticeable: wider more 3D soundstage, more natural convincing sound overall and quite improved bass extension (taking it into almost CI territory), on quad it's more subtle (including 55Ohm/5uF configuration). No effect on Bellsing 5 at all (tested out of curiosity).
> I'm not sure if I like it or not, but the difference is there, even if ever so subtle.
> Will need to listen to the effect more.


Quad RAB32257 500Hz standard zobel circuit is
Cz= 1.2 uF
Rz= 165ohms

Dual series RAB32257 500Hz standard zobel is
Cz=2.3uF
Rz=82.5ohms



Since you calculated from DCR standard

(those value are from DCR standard)

i think Bass effect would be more as the RAB will roll of earlier compared to 500Hz standard
Yours would have more soundstage as the driver is now looking more like DCR in most of response, thus reducing electrical and signal distortion, plus now the roll of treble and mids turn things more vocal and fundamental tone oriented, and zobel eats up sensitivity, distortion and ground floor, things starts to sound wider and deeper

inconclusive and strange right

if you find the bass too much, then you can have the Zobel made from 500Hz standard


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Apr 4, 2019)

Well,
RAB32063 driver with Zobel(DCR standard) and 40ohms series resistor(after zobel, going toward connector for iem) with 10mm lenght/2mm ID tubing, white damper(680 ohms) at 3mm from driver spout

Cz = 5 uF(ideal 4.95 uF)
Rz = 38 ohms(ideal 38.125 ohms)

Rs = 40ohms

pure listening bliss.
Smoothest treble, fantastic mids and way more controlled bass amount and dynamics.
Linear Bass response with better extension

DCR = 62 ohms
Impedance = 86.5 ohms

@Ivan TT
Higher impedance load perform better on voltage source amp in internal driver distortion which gives them black sound, but distorts amps slightly to give the texture and grain. i was listening to Quad RAB32257 series, and it sounded like when you add good grain while editing videos. that grain hide source artifacts and sharpen image, the same thing happened to Quad series. low quality 128kbps Eminem Lose yourself sounded tolerable, and when i shifted to FLAC on the same music, it subdued the old microphone hiss and made instruments stand out. That was like revelation to me, because i thought series were bad as a configuration. But the bass seems strong AF when powered by O2(not joking, it is stronger than TFZ Queen and Exclusive KING).


----------



## dhruvmeena96

jambul said:


> This is my try to diy iem,
> Using rab 30233+wbfk 30095 +ed 29689 all in series..
> No cross over, all driver work in fullrange
> 
> ...


Put a crossover on WBFK...a capacitor

And make it parallel to ED and RAB


----------



## Ivan TT

So after spending literally HOURS evaluating Zobels (actually Boucherot cells), I can report preliminary findings/impressions:

The effect is definitely there and has 3 main aspects to it:
1. High frequency quality change: I observe subtle uplift, extra extension (noticeable on cymbals) and somewhat silkier quality. Also vocals change presence-positioning quite a bit. Overall sounds like very nice "presence" control turned on. Resistor value seems to have most effect on this, best results are around x1.25 DC resistance or impedance @ 500Hz
3. Soundstage: wider and deeper, sometimes a touch too deep (I think maybe due to phase shift introduced by Zobel?)
4. Low end - extra extension, not louder but deeper and more bass authority. Seems to be slightly more pronounced when higher capacitance is used, 2.2-4.7uF is a sweet spot for me.

Best effect so far was observed on x4 RAB in series, which was a bit underwhelming but now sounds great!
x4 RAF - definitely an improvement, but with Zobel it is not as good as RAB-Z (Z for Zobel).
x2 RAB-Z - very nice, maybe a touch too much highs, I'm tempted to try red damper to see what happens (currently green).
Bellsing 5 - I can JUST hear the effect (or can convince myself I do).

Overall introduction of Zobel improves BAs sound within that elusive 5% (I had more radical or comparable change in sound signature from tips/cable rolling or changing dampers), but also proves tricky to fine-tune due to how subtle it is (and changes between different component values are even subtler), I would recommend using standard formula but doubling the capacitor value.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Ivan TT said:


> So after spending literally HOURS evaluating Zobels (actually Boucherot cells), I can report preliminary findings/impressions:
> 
> The effect is definitely there and has 3 main aspects to it:
> 1. High frequency quality change: I observe subtle uplift, extra extension (noticeable on cymbals) and somewhat silkier quality. Also vocals change presence-positioning quite a bit. Overall sounds like very nice "presence" control turned on. Resistor value seems to have most effect on this, best results are around x1.25 DC resistance or impedance @ 500Hz
> ...


doubling the Cz of zobel rolls of the driver earlier, damping 2kHz peak and other peak. Standard zobel only dampens the rising impedance and in my experience takes away the distortion and roughness in treble.

When i first talked about zobel, i said something about increase in depth information.
Well, that happens because when HF is electrically rolled of while not having anything in series to circuit, makes the driver distortion flatter and lower on treble plus decreasing the load of air resistance to diaphragm, which tends to clean the 1kHz spike in BA and lowering bass, bass and treble induced distortions to the mids. Second, zobel waste the energy of a circuit while keeping most of the dB same. so take pink or white noise and just remove the HF part, the noise become easier to listen and slightly pleasing, zobel does the same too. Floor noise is lower. This overall contributes to the depth information and sound-stage even though treble is technically lower(so called air)

Bass increase is due to de-loading HF in roll off pattern from driver, giving it breather and helping it go deeper in Bass.

treble issues happens as zobel don't kill the peaks, they remain the same as it is. so the linear roll off makes it more noticeable in a response. a damper rolls off plus dampens the peak.

hmmmm
decreasing resistor decrease treble
increasing resistor increases treble to a limit and then decrease it back again




nowadays
i calculate the zobel for whole impedance range for the given inductance and then average it out.
thats the perfect value for me


----------



## Kulgrinda

Ivan TT said:


> So after spending literally HOURS evaluating Zobels (actually Boucherot cells), I can report preliminary findings/impressions:
> 
> The effect is definitely there and has 3 main aspects to it:
> 1. High frequency quality change: I observe subtle uplift, extra extension (noticeable on cymbals) and somewhat silkier quality. Also vocals change presence-positioning quite a bit. Overall sounds like very nice "presence" control turned on. Resistor value seems to have most effect on this, best results are around x1.25 DC resistance or impedance @ 500Hz
> ...



Thanks for sharing! Can you give R and C values for 2xRAB and 4xRAB setups?


----------



## Ivan TT (Apr 8, 2019)

Kulgrinda said:


> Thanks for sharing! Can you give R and C values for 2xRAB and 4xRAB setups?


The pleasure is mine 
Actual values are the same for RAB and RAF x2 and are a bit tricky as @dhruvmeena96 points out above there's DC resistance and impedances @ different Hz, if one to take impedance of 33Ohm @500Hz as a base value it's 82.5Ohm and 2.3uF (truncated to the closest values of components you can source, most likely 82Ohm and 2.2uF)
I would also try x2 capacitor value (4.7uF or 2x2.2uF in parallel), it gives slightly fuller sound unless I imagine it.


Spoiler: This is where things get interesting



If you want to dig deeper and DIY:
Calculator:
http://diyaudioprojects.com/Technical/Speaker-Zobel/
Datasheets:
https://www.knowles.com/docs/default-source/model-downloads/rab-32257-000.pdf?Status=Master&sfvrsn=0
https://www.knowles.com/docs/defaul...dbb37cff0000940c19.pdf?Status=Master&sfvrsn=0
Any value (DC resistance and impedances @ different Hz) could be a starting point and are worth testing if you have time/components) but I notice that their average value as @dhruvmeena96 suggests is close to impedance @500 Hz


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Apr 8, 2019)

Ivan TT said:


> The pleasure is mine
> Actual values are the same for RAB and RAF x2 and are a bit tricky as @dhruvmeena96 points out above there's DC resistance and impedances @ different Hz, if one to take impedance of 33Ohm @500Hz as a base value it's 82.5Ohm and 2.3uF (truncated to the closest values of components you can source, most likely 82Ohm and 2.2uF)
> I would also try x2 capacitor value (4.7uF or 2x2.2uF in parallel), it gives slightly fuller sound unless I imagine it.
> 
> ...


Its close to 500Hz but has lower damping factor(higher resistance, but at same time, is overall more energy dissipator compared to 500HZ and also sounds better too)

Good first build for RAB user

RAB32063(non vented) + Zobel(500Hz) + L-pad(with more series added)

L-pad config
Rp = 10ohms/ 1Watt
Rs = 40ohms/ 1watt

8mm lenght / 1mm ID tube
Brown damper at center

Fastest and the least distorting BA setup.
500mW rated safe(1W should never be thrown, as it will blow the resistor in prolonged use) which is high. The bass linearity was the most shocking with the mids, plus it doesnt get lost like etymotic BA roll off. Very extended and speedy transition  from single BA


----------



## zekester

Thanks for this epic thread! I have read huge chunks at a time, made and failed, made and succeeded in making shells, wired up and created my first GV based set and used them on stage. This has been an incredibly fun undertaking and thank you for all of your years of activity to make it happen. 

I have read through and researched pretty much every aspect of the process and have many questions. The first one though is how do you determine the effect of tubing length?  I understand that length and diameter has an effect on the tuning on several levels, but it seems like phase and a frequency filtering effect both take place. Is there a calculation that shows rolloff at certain lengths for example?

Thanks again, I am hooked!


----------



## eunice

Some in this thread measure the effect by starting with a long tube and cutting Millimeter by millimeter. Others ( @dhruvmeena96  ) use expensive physics simulation software to solve it. 

I for one did not (yet) bother, I try to make the tubes as short as possible, I have not yet heard any improvement by making some tubes longer in my sets. However I do hear if there is a short piece of 1mm ID tube inside the 2mm ID tube at the driver. 

So good question, would be interested in info as well, did someone come up with a few rules of thumb?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

eunice said:


> Some in this thread measure the effect by starting with a long tube and cutting Millimeter by millimeter. Others ( @dhruvmeena96  ) use expensive physics simulation software to solve it.
> 
> I for one did not (yet) bother, I try to make the tubes as short as possible, I have not yet heard any improvement by making some tubes longer in my sets. However I do hear if there is a short piece of 1mm ID tube inside the 2mm ID tube at the driver.
> 
> So good question, would be interested in info as well, did someone come up with a few rules of thumb?


Smaller ID shifts peak backward while also damping it.
Bigger ID retain the peak position but also dampen(slightly).
Reference ID for Knowles = 2mm
Reference ID for Sonion = 2mm/1.5mm

Longer length tubing act as a low pass

For example
If 2mm ID / 10mm lenght is reference on RAB driver 

Then changing 2mm to 1.5mm or 1mm will shift its inherent peak 3kHz toward 2kHz while also shifting other peaks and damping it.

If length is increased to 20mm, then it will go through a longer tube, loosing the HF as longer tube will dissipate HF energy plus more distance of driver to eardrum.

Its all in combination of ID and Length.

Read sonion and Knowles guide for more info


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Apr 9, 2019)

Well, does anybody have measurements of Sonion 2354 vs 2389 and ED29689
well i am interested in 2354 vs ED29689

plus Sonion 2354 is 25$ 
i dont know if it is pair or single driver

https://www.yoycart.com/Product/559474794045/


----------



## Xymordos (Apr 9, 2019)

Not sure if you got this before, there's measurements of the 29689 driver (and some other Knowles ones) here.

Edit: seems like you can't upload files, I've uploaded it here: https://pan.baidu.com/s/18qTpYqhLiKcdbw47_ECxxg

PW: 8m9x


----------



## NoForMe

I've searched and searched, I feel like the last thing I need is a colloid dispenser.  Has anyone found anything that makes this easier than heating in a microwave or stove?  The dispensers I have found run well over $800.  If someone has a DIY hack please let me know!


----------



## eunice

If you want to melt agar, just use a wax melting pot/ wax heater. They can hold the temperature and can be easily controlled from ~50C to ~100C, and they are cheap.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Apr 9, 2019)

Xymordos said:


> Not sure if you got this before, there's measurements of the 29689 driver (and some other Knowles ones) here.
> 
> Edit: seems like you can't upload files, I've uploaded it here: https://pan.baidu.com/s/18qTpYqhLiKcdbw47_ECxxg
> 
> PW: 8m9x


I am not able to download that file
Makes me go to login and then say invalid credentials.
Plus, I think, that's only Knowles.



Xymordos said:


> https://drive.google.com/open?id=1wBbyP_jpSM16t9nkwlKsRHh8tDeQLVBO
> 
> Try this one instead



thanks


----------



## Xymordos

dhruvmeena96 said:


> I am not able to download that file
> Makes me go to login and then say invalid credentials.
> Plus, I think, that's only Knowles.
> 
> Still thanks



https://drive.google.com/open?id=1wBbyP_jpSM16t9nkwlKsRHh8tDeQLVBO

Try this one instead


----------



## Senor CIEM

Well, I'm a bit confused because it did now a lot of GK pairs with different dampers inside. Like the most recommended green+red configuration up to brown+white with some variations between.
The interesting thing is, I asked a few people what they like the best and it seems they like it more the undamped or less damped way and red and green is the most unliked setup. Well makes this sense to you guys too? Isn't this kind of weird?

Many thanks!


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Senor CIEM said:


> Well, I'm a bit confused because it did now a lot of GK pairs with different dampers inside. Like the most recommended green+red configuration up to brown+white with some variations between.
> The interesting thing is, I asked a few people what they like the best and it seems they like it more the undamped or less damped way and red and green is the most unliked setup. Well makes this sense to you guys too? Isn't this kind of weird?
> 
> Many thanks!


Yes it is.....
I tried it undampened and it does okay but needs control.
I use green on CI(center of tube) and brown on TWFK(on 3/4 lenght away from spout)


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Apr 11, 2019)

DIY Noble Savant Upgrade
replace the ED29689 with Sonion 2354

Touch more "subbass" boost, way better extension in lower frequency.
More Vibrant Treble(Air), way better extension in Higher frequency.
Somewhat cleaner and more bigger stage.

well, sonion drivers can be bought from yoyocart and some bass drivers are also sold on aliexpress nowadays in single unit
Sonion slowly started leaking the drivers to the market


----------



## Kulgrinda

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Well, does anybody have measurements of Sonion 2354 vs 2389 and ED29689
> well i am interested in 2354 vs ED29689
> 
> plus Sonion 2354 is 25$
> ...



So was 25 usd per pair or per each driver?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Kulgrinda said:


> So was 25 usd per pair or per each driver?


thats what i dont know


----------



## ForceMajeure

cost is for a single driver on that site


----------



## dhruvmeena96

WBFK and RAB x2 build


RAB32033 + zobel - driver 1
RAB32063 + zobel - driver 2

Both paralleled

WBFK with 470nF capacitor - driver 3

Driver 1- 6mm(2mn ID)
Driver 2 - 7mm straight(2mm ID)
Driver 3 - 12mm straight(2mm ID)

Driver 1 - yellow damper(center)
Driver 2 - brown damper(center)
Driver 3 - no damper



DCR 11ohms


----------



## Ivan TT (Apr 13, 2019)

Bellsing 6 driver 10013 is badass!

I love its sound very, very much, lowest lows I’ve heard from BA, highs are a touch too hot but red damper makes them just right, otherwise very balanced lively signature. 25Ohm/22uF Zobel improves things even further. Better than 10025 Bellsing 5 driver.







PS: ended up using two dampers in series, red close to the drivers, white just outside of tubing ear canal side. @eunice was pointing out mids lacking a bit (compared to excellent lows and highs), this approach improves them a bit and tames highs down on hotter sounding tracks.


----------



## ForceMajeure

Ivan TT said:


> Bellsing 6 driver 10013 is badass!
> 
> I love its sound very, very much, lowest lows I’ve heard from BA, highs are a touch too hot but red damper makes them just right, otherwise very balanced lively signature. 25Ohm/22uF Zobel improves things even further. Better than 10025 Bellsing 5 driver.
> 
> ...


So you have used the 500hz impedance (~20ohm) according to this graph as reference for the zobel network (Rz =1.25X R(500hz)?  how did you come up with the 22uf value without knowing the inductance?

can you measure the impedance with arta limp? I am curious to see the effect


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Apr 13, 2019)

ForceMajeure said:


> So you have used the 500hz impedance (~20ohm) according to this graph as reference for the zobel network (Rz =1.25X R(500hz)?  how did you come up with the 22uf value without knowing the inductance?
> 
> can you measure the impedance with arta limp? I am curious to see the effect





Ivan TT said:


> Bellsing 6 driver 10013 is badass!
> 
> I love its sound very, very much, lowest lows I’ve heard from BA, highs are a touch too hot but red damper makes them just right, otherwise very balanced lively signature. 25Ohm/22uF Zobel improves things even further. Better than 10025 Bellsing 5 driver.
> 
> ...





@Ivan TT smart move, must say
@ForceMajeure

25ohms resistor and 22uF capacitor is pretty simple to predict
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







ok lets go by the graph
So, he did was 25ohms and 22uF capacitor

22uF will low-pass it , i don't know the exact frequency since i am not at home to calculate value but_* if the capacitor is effecting after 500Hz then 25ohms parallel will*_

Impedance
DCR = 15 ohms
500Hz = 14 ohms (20ohms orignal)

1kHz = ~14.58 (~35ohms orignal)
2kHz = ~8.3 (~12.5ohms orignal)
3kHz = ~6.06(~8 ohms orignal)
10kHz = ~6ohms(~12ohms orignal)
last response = ~12ohms(~23ohms orignal)

that will drop all the peaks from the whole setup





He placed damper on spout and end tube to get the mids and bass boost out of the driver while damping the added extra useless High Frequency signal.

but i think red is not a good damper here
it should be green or brown
red is overkill and may take away the sizzle and detail



it is not a boucherot cell/ zobel circuit
it is a RC circuit which is also acting like a Zobel of a kind


----------



## Ivan TT (Apr 13, 2019)

ForceMajeure said:


> So you have used the 500hz impedance (~20ohm) according to this graph as reference for the zobel network (Rz =1.25X R(500hz)?  how did you come up with the 22uf value without knowing the inductance?
> 
> can you measure the impedance with arta limp? I am curious to see the effect


@dhruvmeena96  has perfect rationale above,
To be honest I did not know that the impedance graph for Bellsing 6 exists, but I observed that the impedance @500Hz is usually 1/3 higher than DC Resistance, so used it as starting point and truncated the result to closest resistor value i had.

But it was just a starting point, as I mainly used this to arrive at final values:






It allows me to dial in resistances 0-300 ohm and 1-60uF capacitances so I simply found a combination that sounded best to me.
I believe values of resistors and capacitors could vary quite significantly, by the way (so 10 or even 5uF would work just fine).

As to LIMP, remind me if I need that adapter with 100ohm resistor, ideally with schematics please?
PS: nevermind, got it, should be able to do it sometime soon.


----------



## eunice

@Ivan TT Thank you so much for sharing. I am very happy you like the Bellsing 6, especially since I shamelessly advertised them here.
Could you compare them to your 4xRAB/4xRAF setups?
Also, just out of curiosity: Are you using unpolarized caps, or did you use polarized caps in series with reversed polarity?


----------



## Ivan TT

Bellsing 10013 impedances graphs:

1. Stock:







2. 25Ohm + 22uF Zobel:


----------



## Ivan TT

eunice said:


> @Ivan TT Thank you so much for sharing. I am very happy you like the Bellsing 6, especially since I shamelessly advertised them here.


Worked well for me, much appreciated!


eunice said:


> Could you compare them to your 4xRAB/4xRAF setups?


Yes, but I usually take some time to arrive at conclusions, since yesterday I have Bellsing 6 and 4xRAB with zobels so listening to both taking turns, what I CAN tell you is they have different signatures, but I like them both, no clear winner yet.


eunice said:


> Also, just out of curiosity: Are you using unpolarized caps, or did you use polarized caps in series with reversed polarity?


Non-polar in Bellsing 6, polar 4.7uF tantalum in 4xRAB. 
I don't think it really matters as polar caps are used for DC decoupling in many HP amps and DAPs, but please tell me more about that reverse polarity approach?


----------



## eunice (Apr 13, 2019)

Ivan TT said:


> I don't think it really matters as polar caps are used for DC decoupling in many HP amps and DAPs, but please tell me more about that reverse polarity approach?


My knowledge of electronics is limited, but from what I know a polar cap has different behavior depending on the polarity of the voltage applied, which of course means they are not suited for AC. You can create an unpolarized cap from two identical polarized caps by connecting them in series in opposite polarity ( -||++||- or +||--||+ doesn't matter). The resulting capacitance is half of a single cap.

More detailed explanation in this post: https://www.eeweb.com/forum/polarized-vs-non-polarized-capacitors


----------



## ForceMajeure

Ivan TT said:


> Bellsing 10013 impedances graphs:
> 
> 1. Stock:
> 
> ...


Awesome, Thanks!


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Apr 14, 2019)

Ivan TT said:


> Bellsing 10013 impedances graphs:
> 
> 1. Stock:
> 
> ...


That looks better than some flagships....
Damm, that's some flat impedance you got


Well, there was this article written by the creator of O2 amp. He said that BA iem are technically worse due to its bad impedance swings which caused different sound on different sorts of amp

But after zobel and @Ivan TT RC corrector for multi driver(since boucheret cell or zobel was made for single driver, so still thinking a cool name for his RC circuit) on multi driver, I think that statement is going to get wrong.

@Ivan TT well if you can build that for Bellsing by hit and trial, then it means, that if you are provided by impedance graph, you can make zobel for any driver by hit and trail


----------



## DannyBouwhuis

Hey guys,

I'd like to try a 4× RAF build I've been looking for some schematics on here but I couldn't find anything, can anyone give me some more info ? 

Thx


----------



## dhruvmeena96

DannyBouwhuis said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I'd like to try a 4× RAF build I've been looking for some schematics on here but I couldn't find anything, can anyone give me some more info ?
> 
> Thx


which version are you trying to make

4x RAF series parallel + zobel

or 

4x RAF Series + zobel


----------



## DannyBouwhuis

dhruvmeena96 said:


> which version are you trying to make
> 
> 4x RAF series parallel + zobel
> 
> ...




Series parallel, I don't think I can drive series, and series parallel was better right ?


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Apr 14, 2019)

DannyBouwhuis said:


> Series parallel, I don't think I can drive series, and series parallel was better right ?


it depends
Well signature wise, series is way better(of charts)
Electrical and distortion point, parallel is better

for tubing you can make 2 RAF's drivers share the single tube and get dual bore design or make it like @Ivan TT (the resonator)

for zobel (series parallel)
Cz = 4.6uF
Rz = 41 ohms


for zobel (Series)
ask @Ivan TT
or
Cz = 1uF
Rz = 165 ohms




for wiring series parallel

Wire 2 drivers in series and make a pair of dual driver
then wire them in parallel

and you will have a quad driver assembly

you have to connect zobel to this quad assembly






take that speaker as quad assembly

if going series parallel

add a 30ohm series resistor to the positive leg in between your connection(mmcx or 2pin) and zobel

speaker -> zobel -> series resistor -> connection




by the way, its better to make 2 x RAF series

Cz = 2.2uF
Rz = 82 ohms

The bass quality and level is unmatched. its better than dynamic sony xb60ex in extension. So, the CI doesn't even hold candle....Not even HODVTEC. well, its linear style bass and doesnt have the amounts of any of the three driver, but it goes way deeper with immense control

distortion is way better than Standard BA and dynamics too

Soundstage will shock you

use dampers as per taste though

i use brown


----------



## DannyBouwhuis

dhruvmeena96 said:


> it depends
> Well signature wise, series is way better(of charts)
> Electrical and distortion point, parallel is better
> 
> ...



Thanks !! I think I get my drivers in next week then I can do some experimenting, can't wait. Thanks again


----------



## DannyBouwhuis

dhruvmeena96 said:


> it depends
> Well signature wise, series is way better(of charts)
> Electrical and distortion point, parallel is better
> 
> ...



Btw what's the purpose of the series resistor ??


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Apr 14, 2019)

DannyBouwhuis said:


> Thanks !! I think I get my drivers in next week then I can do some experimenting, can't wait. Thanks again


i updated my post////

the purpose of series resistor is to drop volume, have even linear distortion for extremely quick transition and attacks.

since we have sort of linear impedance, and zobel lowers the treble floor noise, this made the 1kHz noise and distortion seem more noticeable and we are sensitive to mids(@Ivan TT and one more guy once made this statement statement ). the 30ohms is sweet spot and it lowers the distortion and kills almost all noise to give a perfect black background.

with @Ivan TT tubing design you will have more soundstage

with my dual bore design, you can control the damping scheme of two tubes to tune peaks to the preferences


but i prefer 2x RAF series with zobel


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Apr 15, 2019)

Well, MASM quad driver design I am going to share by today or tommorow

Inspired by MASM, one more RAB but with some new circuitry(not standard zobel)

Same DCR, flatter impedance
Quad driver, Quad component for Zobel and RAB load shifter, 1/4th distortion on paper(in theory, by predicting and calculating), dual bore

Since I have calculated it, I have to build it now

I will be sharing the design....no issue
Same GQ
Same RAB x 2(now its two)
Double resistor for impedance matching(its not L-pad or any derivative, you will see it )
Zobel circuit


----------



## Xymordos

So I just tested dhruvmeena96's 4xRAB design. I used 4x RAB32063 in a series-parallel configuration with a zobel of 5uf + 38ohms, with a series resistor of 30ohms. Measurements are below. Impedance is much flatter, and phase is flat too! Frequency response is measured through a 3mm diameter by 15mm length tube. Though I'm still waiting for my universal shells to arrive so I can't finish building them yet. Just by listening to the drivers, they sounded very clear and had great bass slam (though it was a very poor seal due to the lack of proper shells). Hope to listen to more of this when my shells and filters arrive.



Spoiler: Impedance Chart













Spoiler: Frequency Response - The one in green, ignore the other ones.


----------



## ChrisJensen

Hey, wanted to build my own CIEM, and was wondering if there was a driver setup I could buy off the shelf that is as good as westones w40 or Shure SE535s. Anyone has any recommendations for drivers? I listen mostly to acoustic and classical music


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Apr 16, 2019)

Xymordos said:


> So I just tested dhruvmeena96's 4xRAB design. I used 4x RAB32063 in a series-parallel configuration with a zobel of 5uf + 38ohms, with a series resistor of 30ohms. Measurements are below. Impedance is much flatter, and phase is flat too! Frequency response is measured through a 3mm diameter by 15mm length tube. Though I'm still waiting for my universal shells to arrive so I can't finish building them yet. Just by listening to the drivers, they sounded very clear and had great bass slam (though it was a very poor seal due to the lack of proper shells). Hope to listen to more of this when my shells and filters arrive.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I did zobel for phase flattening issues.
I learned the fact that speaker dont phase shift that much in closed space, as compared to Balanced armature...some flagship headphones too. So a zobel corrects that and add the depthness, since timing is more correct and our mind can place things better in space. Added advantage is for impedance swings

But since I said zobel was not complete..
Today I am going to introduce a new technique(it is registered, so cannot be used for sale purposes.
But it requires 2 drivers

Rs1 connected in series of driver
Rs1 = DCR of driver


Dual parallel for MASM(for MASM, the two driver share same tube, without dampers) upgrade or standalone

Driver 1 assembly
RAB32033 + 22ohm resistor

Driver 2 assembly
RAB32033 + 22ohm resistor

Parallel Driver 1 assembly with Driver 2 assembly

New DCR= 22 ohms
New 500 = 27.5 ohms(33 ohms orignal)
Highest peak = 111 ohms(200 ohms original)

Since the DCR and 500 Hz are near to each other, inductance value can be taken as DCR which is now 3.9uH

Cz= 5.2uF
Rz= 27.5ohms

Rs2 is normal series resistor to whole circuit
Rs2 = 33ohms





For quad parallel

Driver 1 assembly
RAB32033 + 66ohm resistor

Driver 2 assembly
RAB32033 + 66ohm resistor

Driver 3 assembly
RAB32033 + 66ohm resistor

Driver 4 assembly
RAB32033 + 66ohm resistor

Parallel all assembly

New DCR= 22 ohms
New 500 = 24.75 ohms(33 ohms orignal)
Highest peak =66.5 ohms(200 ohms original)

Zobel
Cz= 2.6uF
Rz= 27.5ohms

Rs2 is normal series resistor to whole circuit
Rs2 = 33ohms



Lemme explain my thinking behind this

Since DCR is same as original(before Rs2)...and impedance is flat, it will send nearly same power as single driver(slightly higher, since low and flat impedance there is). Zobel circuit while showing amp balanced load resistive, kills HF noise and treble distortions, then it splits to 4x or 2x driver with specific resistor.

This means the amp is divided in 2 or 4. Then if we take single driver, the added resistance makes it drive lower and faster, while also killing some of the noises and distortion over all the single drive which when we see is only playing 25% of overall load.

Rs2 is for finishing touches


----------



## eunice

ChrisJensen said:


> Hey, wanted to build my own CIEM, and was wondering if there was a driver setup I could buy off the shelf that is as good as westones w40 or Shure SE535s. Anyone has any recommendations for drivers? I listen mostly to acoustic and classical music


I would recommend you try to build a Knowles GV or Bellsing 6 driver based CIEM. These drivers sound crazy good and are very easy to build (just attach 2 wires, socket and 2 tubes), but they are not cheap and you definitively will break drivers. If you want to go a cheaper route and are not afraid of soldering, try the 2x RAB design by @dhruvmeena96  in the previous post.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

ChrisJensen said:


> Hey, wanted to build my own CIEM, and was wondering if there was a driver setup I could buy off the shelf that is as good as westones w40 or Shure SE535s. Anyone has any recommendations for drivers? I listen mostly to acoustic and classical music


What is the cost limit?
What level of electronics you know?
What sort is sound preference you have

If you are afraid of soldering

Take 2x RAB32257 p183 version with soldered wire

Driver 1 assembly
RAB32257 + 22ohm resistor

Driver 2 assembly
RAB32257 + 22ohm resistor

Parallel Driver 1 assembly with Driver 2 assembly

Zobel circuit(it has to connect between mmcx or 2pin  and the paralleled driver assembly)
Cz= 5.2uF
Rz= 27.5ohms

Then add a Series resistance of 33ohms in between Connection port(mmcx or 2pin) and zobel.



Review on MASM4.....larger midrange presence, less treble, larger bass presence. I prefer MASM3. MASM4 is like Audeze LCD classic whereas MASM3 is like Audeze LCD4 in sound signature and opposite in technical comparison.

Both have more than enough soundstage but MASM4 has more soundstage....but issue is intimate stage is lacking a lot....which MASM3 has


----------



## ChrisJensen

eunice said:


> I would recommend you try to build a Knowles GV or Bellsing 6 driver based CIEM. These drivers sound crazy good and are very easy to build (just attach 2 wires, socket and 2 tubes), but they are not cheap and you definitively will break drivers. If you want to go a cheaper route and are not afraid of soldering, try the 2x RAB design by @dhruvmeena96  in the previous post.


Thank you so much for the quick response. I guess I'll purchase all of the drivers and start on some experimenting. Thanks again, good sir!


----------



## ChrisJensen

dhruvmeena96 said:


> What is the cost limit?
> What level of electronics you know?
> What sort is sound preference you have
> 
> ...



Thanks a lot for the quick reply and suggestions!

I'm not very articulate with my sound preference, but I've tried the Shure 535s and love them for the very impressive bass and clear mids and highs. I don't mind sacrificing bass for even clearer mids, highs and treble along with clear sound separation. 
Music I listen mostly to is simply classical concerto, acoustic music and occasionally pop. 

I don't really have a budget and anything goes with the price.

Naturally, I have no experience with electronics but I'm good at studying. Do you have any links to guides, books or videos that I can use? Really appreciate the help here, my good sir!


----------



## dhruvmeena96

ChrisJensen said:


> Thanks a lot for the quick reply and suggestions!
> 
> I'm not very articulate with my sound preference, but I've tried the Shure 535s and love them for the very impressive bass and clear mids and highs. I don't mind sacrificing bass for even clearer mids, highs and treble along with clear sound separation.
> Music I listen mostly to is simply classical concerto, acoustic music and occasionally pop.
> ...


Well there is one thing you can read
@Furco
This member wrote a compilation of post and his points in a doc....which is amazing for beginners starting of

Doing Noble Savant DIY would be the easiest... If you know soldering.

If Soldering

1. Noble savant DIY
2. Quad RAB 32063 series parallel zobel resisted
3. MASM3 or Original MASM

Dont know Soldering, but have to try without risking.

1. Quad RAB 32257-P183(same as above things)
2. Single RAB zobel and series resisted


----------



## cchitsun

Hi all, 

after a few times of adjustment, built my first CIEM, that produces quite nice outcome. 
Here s my combination, hope might help you have a idea when you build your own. 

38AM007 parallel with a 10ohm resistor and serious with a 4.7uF cap.
2389 parallel with a 10uF cap
31736 parallel with a 1uF cap

dampers entirely up to your own preference.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

cchitsun said:


> Hi all,
> 
> after a few times of adjustment, built my first CIEM, that produces quite nice outcome.
> Here s my combination, hope might help you have a idea when you build your own.
> ...


Yo bro
Sonion 38AM007 with a parallel CR(RC) circuit.
Do you have inductance  for these drivers or was hit and trial..

Otherwise, it seems nice as a build


----------



## Cevisi

What will it cost to make a listenable iem compareble like dm6 or kanas pro ?


----------



## eunice

Cevisi said:


> What will it cost to make a listenable iem compareble like dm6 or kanas pro ?


Custom or universal? For custom you will have to calculate around 20€ per shell, but with all the materials and equipment you will need to buy it’s a few hundred euro up front. 

Universal shells are between 5€ and 40€.

The driver are the most expensive part, depending on what you want to build they can cost from a few € to 100€ for the pair. The rest is cheap, connectors, wire, faceplate and so on. 

Short answer: if you plan to do one or two pairs, DIY it’s going to be more expensive than buying off the shelf. Much more expensive. If cost is your concern just buy a pair of KZ ZS10 for 25€, you cannot beat that in terms of price/performance. 

The reward is in enjoying the build and tuning them exactly to your preferences.


----------



## Cevisi (Apr 16, 2019)

eunice said:


> Custom or universal? For custom you will have to calculate around 20€ per shell, but with all the materials and equipment you will need to buy it’s a few hundred euro up front.
> 
> Universal shells are between 5€ and 40€.
> 
> ...



Money is not the problem i am electrican and like iems so i like to do this as hobby but i dont want spend alot of money for somthing that sounds crap

These 100 dollar drivers are they sounding good if they build in nicley

Can i do the shelfs by self whit resin or are you guys buyin empty shels from somewhere ?

The question is lohnt sich das oder doch lieber garnicht erst anfangen


----------



## magnificientako

I opened my Kz Zsa because too much v shape sound.Dynamic bass drivers removed and put the knowles drivers from the ue600 into it.But i did not remove the zsa tweeters.Sound is not bad.


----------



## eunice

Cevisi said:


> Money is not the problem i am electrican and like iems so i like to do this as hobby but i dont want spend alot of money for somthing that sounds crap
> 
> These 100 dollar drivers are they sounding good if they build in nicley
> 
> ...



It is absolutely worth it. It won’t sound crap, you will easily compete with very expensive gear. 
I started the hobby because I did not want to spend a thousand bucks on custom in ears that might not fit properly. But the sound and comfort I achieved with just a few builds is insanely good. You cannot compare the sound CIEMs to speakers or over ear headphones, they sound entirely different. The noise isolation and clarity of the sound is simply not possible with any other form factor. Of course you have the same limitations in 3D imaging as any headphones and you won’t feel any bass punching your chest. 

In universals you need to make a compromise between comfort (=soft tips), seal (required for bass) and too soft tips reducing high frequencies. This problem does not exist with CIEMs. 

Since you‘re a German, you can buy resin from McEar.de. McEar also has Knowles GV drivers and kits with tubes, sockets and the likes to get you started. They are enthusiasts too and love to share tricks.


----------



## Xymordos

cchitsun said:


> Hi all,
> 
> after a few times of adjustment, built my first CIEM, that produces quite nice outcome.
> Here s my combination, hope might help you have a idea when you build your own.
> ...



Wait you meant capacitor in series in the 2389 and 31736, and parallel on the 3800 right...?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Xymordos said:


> Wait you meant capacitor in series in the 2389 and 31736, and parallel on the 3800 right...?


Well I think,
You are right @Xymordos
If we read carefully, he swapped parallel with series
LoL


Cevisi said:


> What will it cost to make a listenable iem compareble like dm6 or kanas pro ?





Cevisi said:


> Money is not the problem i am electrican and like iems so i like to do this as hobby but i dont want spend alot of money for somthing that sounds crap
> 
> These 100 dollar drivers are they sounding good if they build in nicley
> 
> ...



Ja, es ist einen Versuch wert
Kanas pro will be hard as it is a Harman target

DM6 is easy and @Ivan TT bellsing 6 10013 version sounds even better than DM6.

Best cheap and easiest one is Noble Savant DIY. Replace the ED29689 with Sonion 2354 and see how the stage expands. And it is just dual driver. I think it is better than both Kanas(not pro) and DM6. 

You can try MASM, if structure of stage and airy resolution is what you need. 3 drivers and distort less than multi driver setup. Well, it is FIBAE3 alternative for me. 

You can also try Quad RABz. It is meant for technical sound and lowest distortions

All are cheap design


----------



## cchitsun

Oh, yes. You re right. 

Revised as 
38AM007 with a 10ohm resistor in series, and a 4.7uF cap in parallel; 
2389 with a 10uF cap in series and 31736 with a 1uF cap in series.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

the formula for Rs2 is mentioned

This is my proprietary tuning circuit....
Can't use it for commercial project. Can use for home made diy iem

But extremely flat impedance and it gets flatter as you go more parallel.

Distortion level drop is 
1/((1.8) x n) the drop in distortion increase with increment in driver count

And this is the case where you increase performance by adding more drivers, plus is flexible to any amount of drivers 

Plus the moment you increase the driver to infinity(as per theory) we get true resistor as inductance will be negligible and capacitance will also be negligible to infinity.

1/infinite = not defined.

While parallel resistance will try making it flat

So, the more driver added will increase performance many times over and over.


----------



## ChrisJensen

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Well there is one thing you can read
> @Furco
> This member wrote a compilation of post and his points in a doc....which is amazing for beginners starting of
> 
> ...



I'm planning to go for the MASM3 based on all the positive talk about it on the forum. Would it be possible to post the full recipe here? I tried searching but I'm not sure if I have the right one. 
Also, do you think the three drivers will have difficulty fitting into a smaller custom shell? My ears are on the smaller side, so it may be a problem. Thanks again for all the help!


----------



## dhruvmeena96

ChrisJensen said:


> I'm planning to go for the MASM3 based on all the positive talk about it on the forum. Would it be possible to post the full recipe here? I tried searching but I'm not sure if I have the right one.
> Also, do you think the three drivers will have difficulty fitting into a smaller custom shell? My ears are on the smaller side, so it may be a problem. Thanks again for all the help!


Search just MASM or most amazing set for mom
I did documented it nicely

OK

RAB32033

16mm tubing(2mm ID)

Zobel circuit
Cz = 4.6uF
Rz = 41ohms

No damper




Knowles GQ30783
Tubing 20mm(2mm ID)

Green damper at 2mm from spout of BA
Grey damper at center or 10mm away from spout.


I think it will fit small ears...I dont know what sort of exact ear you have


----------



## eunice

Zobel explanation:


----------



## ChrisJensen

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Search just MASM or most amazing set for mom
> I did documented it nicely
> 
> OK
> ...



Thank you!! Think I found it here https://www.head-fi.org/threads/home-made-iems.430688/page-563#post-14840062 for other users wondering!

Final question, with regards to the tubings, does the outer tubing diameter not matter? 
I'm assuming the 16mm and 20mm refers to the length of the tubing right?

And if the outer diameter of the tubes matter, which do you recommend?  2.0mm (Inner Diameter) * 2.5mm (Outer Diameter) ?


----------



## eunice

ChrisJensen said:


> And if the outer diameter of the tubes matter, which do you recommend? 2.0mm (Inner Diameter) * 2.5mm (Outer Diameter) ?


I have done experiments with 2mmID, 3mm and 3.5mm OD tubes.
For high frequency I hear no difference, but bass is a little bit improved with 3.5mm OD tubes, maybe less leaking out of bass energy. I came to this conclusion purely by listening, so I might have fooled myself or the difference came from another difference I did not spot.
But the difference is so small that I decided to keep using 3mm OD as the smaller tubes are much easier to fit into my ear canal.


----------



## ChrisJensen

Kulgrinda said:


> dhruvmeena96's design was the first build I've done with  adding capacitors and resistors to the chain and I have to say it is really good sounding. Sound is open, detailed, with decent amount of bass and not harsh what is very important for me. But all is stated in dhruvmeena96's review. I think is it true, though I would not mention sibilance in any sentence describing sound of earphones, for me it is a show stopper
> 
> Next is 4xRAB build and maybe 1xRAB since I already own one pair. But I highly doubt sound quality would be sufficient from 1 driver, I'm spoiled already.



Hey good sir, do you have details of the capacitor and resistor which you bought?
More specifically, the size of the capacitor and resistor (diameter, length) and the voltage etc. 

Would be good if you have a link to the capacitor or resistor bought. Thanks so much and sorry for the amateurish questions


----------



## ChrisJensen

eunice said:


> I have done experiments with 2mmID, 3mm and 3.5mm OD tubes.
> For high frequency I hear no difference, but bass is a little bit improved with 3.5mm OD tubes, maybe less leaking out of bass energy. I came to this conclusion purely by listening, so I might have fooled myself or the difference came from another difference I did not spot.
> But the difference is so small that I decided to keep using 3mm OD as the smaller tubes are much easier to fit into my ear canal.



Exactly what I needed. Thanks so much Eunice!


----------



## Kulgrinda

ChrisJensen said:


> Hey good sir, do you have details of the capacitor and resistor which you bought?
> More specifically, the size of the capacitor and resistor (diameter, length) and the voltage etc.
> 
> Would be good if you have a link to the capacitor or resistor bought. Thanks so much and sorry for the amateurish questions


Anytime, glad to help fellow enthusiasts 

I've bought SMD resistors in size 1206, 30 and 12 ohm and soldered them in series. 0805 would also be ok I guess, but since I've done CIEM so there was some space to spare for bigger size resistors. But anyway they are very tiny and you will probably need some kind of magnifying glass to be able to solder them comfortably. I use magnifying glasses in the picture, very convenient.

As for condenser I've bought 16 V 4.7 uF tantalum condenser. There were talk in this thread that bigger voltage is better, maybe more experienced members can comment on this. 

I've bought them from a local electronics store so I doubt they would ship aboard. But these are basic electronics components so there shouldn't be any issues sourcing them.

In general there will be more comments from me. I've duplicated two different sized universal IEMs, will have to finish builds and then I'll share my results. Also I got a batch of different drivers so will be testing 1 BA configuration (ala Etymotic), Noble Savant copy, 2 and 4 RAB configurations. Stay tuned as they say on TV


----------



## eunice

Just to add: most tantalum caps are polarized, if they are polarized you will need to wire two of them in series with opposite polarity. The resulting cap is then half the value of one of them.


----------



## Kulgrinda

eunice said:


> Just to add: most tantalum caps are polarized, if they are polarized you will need to wire two of them in series with opposite polarity. The resulting cap is then half the value of one of them.


That is done to eliminate polarity's effect I think. But if both sides are connected the same way (polarity is marked on the capacitor) there shouldn't be any mismatch, at least I do not hear any.


----------



## eunice

From what I understand a polarized cap works as a capacitor if current flows in one direction and it acts as a short if current flows the other direction. In my experience it does add a little bit of distortion.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Apr 18, 2019)

ChrisJensen said:


> Thank you!! Think I found it here https://www.head-fi.org/threads/home-made-iems.430688/page-563#post-14840062 for other users wondering!
> 
> Final question, with regards to the tubings, does the outer tubing diameter not matter?
> I'm assuming the 16mm and 20mm refers to the length of the tubing right?
> ...


It matters(just dont get to thick so it doesnt fit or to thin to be fragile).

Just get tubing's which will fit easily....that matters

Outer tubing dia can be between 2.5 to 3mm

And big numbers like 20mm and 16mm are length.

If you can get the tube straight to bore without any sort of bending(not the flex point bend, where sound can stop.....just normal flexing)
Something like painful but awesome stereopravada SB7 and SB5..I mean to say, tubes are straight as ruler from BA to earpiece, so sound can travel in straight line.....then outer diameter doesnt matter.

Since BA are generally closed from each side with small slit opening. This create pressure , which when ejected can create laser like or directional sound(for loudspeaker guys.... Its not diffuse but narrow field of sound. Tube interaction becomes less when tubes are straight and equal diameter with spout. But as size is a concern, it can pressurize a point of plastic tube, which returns a low note tone, making bass sound messy

@Xymordos and some people said me to use carbon fiber tubing, because of the above mentioned reasons. Some company uses stainless steel tubing's too.

OK for MASM3.

The design... 
GQ and RAB with 3mm OD/2mm ID


----------



## Kiina

My Pro3dure resin has arrived today. Is it normal that the viscosity is a lot higher than Fotoplast? Fotoplast seems a bit like oil while Pro3dure is like a thick syrup. Or is it just because the Fotoplast is clear while the Pro3dure is colored?


----------



## eunice

It is considerably thicker than fotoplast, sounds normal to me.


----------



## ninjadoc

cchitsun said:


> thank you for your advice. Thats for sure better to begin with some easier and less complex setups.
> btw, speaking of soldering, my experience is using a soldering station is relatively easier to handle and greatly reduces the chances of damaging drivers. You may search for keyword like 'Quick 936', you can get one at a reasonable price on website like Taobao, after all, many stuffs nowadays are manufactured in PRC.



You are making me nervous. I've bought several drivers and was going to do a Noble DIY and a MASM. Given what I've read on tuning that is starting to strike me as to ambitious to start. I have a soldering station and have soldered several custom keyboards (10+) and other items. What is the issue on soldering? I thought I read about heating them up to much and damaging the driver. I think dampers and tubing will be at least one of my issues. That said - what should I start with? The Knowles GV or the Bellsing 6 sound tempting but money could fly away. Will either fit in these? https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Aip...513991.html?spm=a2g0o.cart.0.0.569b3c00IbnES4
Any comments are appreciated.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Apr 19, 2019)

ninjadoc said:


> You are making me nervous. I've bought several drivers and was going to do a Noble DIY and a MASM. Given what I've read on tuning that is starting to strike me as to ambitious to start. I have a soldering station and have soldered several custom keyboards (10+) and other items. What is the issue on soldering? I thought I read about heating them up to much and damaging the driver. I think dampers and tubing will be at least one of my issues. That said - what should I start with? The Knowles GV or the Bellsing 6 sound tempting but money could fly away. Will either fit in these? https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Aip...513991.html?spm=a2g0o.cart.0.0.569b3c00IbnES4
> Any comments are appreciated.


Have you done soldering for smd

Its easy if done right
Just make sure to check the temprature of soldering iron



Check this video.....dont go for description as he is making handheld console but see how he solders cleanly.

I have been following his method for past 4months and man....its amazing.

And flux prevents overheating too


----------



## eunice (Apr 19, 2019)

ninjadoc said:


> You are making me nervous. I've bought several drivers and was going to do a Noble DIY and a MASM. Given what I've read on tuning that is starting to strike me as to ambitious to start. I have a soldering station and have soldered several custom keyboards (10+) and other items. What is the issue on soldering?


You know enough soldering already. Just be careful not to heat the driver more than necessary, but you won’t have any problems. I have far less experience in soldering and I killed only one TWFK. I got impatient and the soldering pad came off.

So be confident here.



ninjadoc said:


> That said - what should I start with? The Knowles GV or the Bellsing 6 sound tempting but money could fly away. Will either fit in these? https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Aip...513991.html?spm=a2g0o.cart.0.0.569b3c00IbnES4
> Any comments are appreciated.



The knowles GV will fit, the Bellsing 6 seems to not leave any room for tubing. I took a picture for you:




Foreground is Bellsing 6, background is knowles GV. GV seems to fit, Bellsing 6 I am able to close the lid, but there would be no room for any tubing.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

eunice said:


> You know enough soldering already. Just be careful not to heat the driver more than necessary, but you won’t have any problems. I have far less experience in soldering and I killed only one TWFK. I got impatient and the soldering pad came off.
> 
> So be confident here.
> 
> ...


best sleeper build ever....
Xiaomi piston lookin shell and you got 6 drivers 
thats like fitting a LS9 in 1965 renault hatchback


----------



## eunice (Apr 19, 2019)

My first Zobel.
Perfectly doable with 0603 SMD resistors, good tweezers and some patience.

Just cover in some resin for stability.



The RAF are hard to use, I broke three of them during soldering. I soldered them in series and checked by measuring their DC resistance (22 Ohms per driver, 88 Ohms in series) and I had two drivers that broke during soldering. They looked fine but they broke.
Maybe I did heat the solder pads too much.

The third one I broke mechanically, they are very flimsy.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

eunice said:


> My first Zobel.
> Perfectly doable with 0603 SMD resistors, good tweezers and some patience.
> 
> Just cover in some resin for stability.
> ...


Use kapton tape and liquid solder flux syringe....

Tape one side of the driver terminal with tape and use put solder flux on other .

Make sure your solder iron is at 200C only and then heat the solder and touch the flux part...dont press the iron, just touch the liquid flux..

It will create perfect solder without damage


----------



## mattmatt

Hey guys,

I want to ask about phase shifts in electrical circuits. From what I understand, if you have a high pass filter for your tweeter you should connect it reversely to compensate for the 90 degree phase shift but that is if your woofer is connected as a full range speaker with no crossovers

How about if you have low pass filter for your woofer and high pass filter for your tweeter? Also how do you connect your speakers depending in the order of your crossover? 

Thank you very much.


----------



## eunice (Apr 20, 2019)

At the cutoff frequency a first-order filter has a 45 degree phase shift. Towards the frequencies that pass through that approaches zero and towards the frequencies that get blocked it approaches 90 degrees, but never actually reaches 90 degrees.  A high pass is shifting the phase forward while a low pass shifts backwards (I hope I didn’t get confused about that)

Flipping the polarity of a tweeter does not shift the phase by 180 degrees, it just inverts  it. If you would have a continuous sine wave, that is equivalent to a 180 degree shift, but not for music. The attack transient of a kick drum is basically one swing up and one down, if you were to reverse the polarity of the bass you just flip that.

In a nut shell: don’t, reversing polarity is a hack that can improve things in some setups, but it very rarely is helping.

Most setups use tube lengths to deal with phase issues.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Apr 20, 2019)

mattmatt said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I want to ask about phase shifts in electrical circuits. From what I understand, if you have a high pass filter for your tweeter you should connect it reversely to compensate for the 90 degree phase shift but that is if your woofer is connected as a full range speaker with no crossovers
> 
> ...





eunice said:


> At the cutoff frequency a first-order filter has a 45 degree phase shift. Towards the frequencies that pass through that approaches zero and towards the frequencies that get blocked it approaches 90 degrees, but never actually reaches 90 degrees.  A high pass is shifting the phase forward while a low pass shifts backwards (I hope I didn’t get confused about that)
> 
> Flipping the polarity of a tweeter does not shift the phase by 180 degrees, it just inverts  it. If you would have a continuous sine wave, that is equivalent to a 180 degree shift, but not for music. The attack transient of a kick drum is basically one swing up and one down, if you were to reverse the polarity of the bass you just flip that.
> 
> ...


it should be inverted if there is a low pass, a low end shelved full range and a tweeter
for example, the SCARY and ITITMARTIN 5 driver hybrid

like a low pass CI, ED or FK with 10uF, then the WBFK and SWFK would require a polarity reversal


i agree with @eunice


----------



## mattmatt

dhruvmeena96 said:


> it should be inverted if there is a low pass, a low end shelved full range and a tweeter
> for example, the SCARY and ITITMARTIN 5 driver hybrid
> 
> like a low pass CI, ED or FK with 10uF, then the WBFK and SWFK would require a polarity reversal
> ...




Thank you very much. I've also seen other setups with the tweeter connected in reverse because it was used with a capacitor and the woofer is connected in proper terminal since it has no crossover.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

MASM with different RAB driver and no bull review

It is Stock MASM(RAB32257) vs other RAB / RAF drivers

1. RAB32063
Wider and taller stage, too much airy and breathy, fastest transition of notes speed, and aggressive detailing. Less bass overall

2. RAB32033(MASM V2)
Best balance, round stage, following Harman target a slight, deepest response, less aggressive than stock MASM in female vocal, more vibrant and full sounding

3. RAF32873
Its sweet, more saturated rather than vibrant. Bass hits like dynamic but is not deep and tight like RAB32033. More enjoyable musically, but preference goes to MASM v2.




Now MASM comes in 4 different flavours. Choose your favourite


----------



## eunice

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Now MASM comes in 4 different flavours. Choose your favourite



Thank you for sharing, it’s the same Zobel values for all of them? (4.6uf and 41Ohm Zobel for RAB/RAF with 16mm tubing, on GQ 20mm tubing with green damper at 2mm or grey damper at 10mm?)


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## dhruvmeena96 (Apr 21, 2019)

eunice said:


> Thank you for sharing, it’s the same Zobel values for all of them? (4.6uf and 41Ohm Zobel for RAB/RAF with 16mm tubing, on GQ 20mm tubing with green damper at 2mm or grey damper at 10mm?)


No....RAB32063 is different

Cz=5uF
Rz=38ohms


Tubing is same


For those who are sensitive to region between 1kHz to 5kHz...

Please use a grey damper on RAB/ RAF tubing(in center of tubing


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Well, today I saw kinera Idun deluxe edition.....
That is a full wood IEM. How do they craft it....

Anybody on shell making, please enlighten me..


----------



## eunice (Apr 21, 2019)

It could be the wood filament used for 3D printing wood and a wood veneer for the face plate.


----------



## eunice

I have now finally the setup to measure impedance.

Look at this, this is Bellsing 6 without Zobel vs. Bellsing 6 with Zobel (23.5 uF and 25 Ohm)




The SPL graph does not change at all, with or without Zobel.

@Ivan TT you are definitively a genious


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Apr 21, 2019)

eunice said:


> I have now finally the setup to measure impedance.
> 
> Look at this, this is Bellsing 6 without Zobel vs. Bellsing 6 with Zobel (23.5 uF and 25 Ohm)
> 
> ...


With 22uF, the impedance drop between 1kHz and 2kHz would not have occurred.

Tonality of driver will change by huge margin. Sometimes same FR and CSD speakers or iems may sound way different, due to technical improvement over specs.

Bellsing 6 sounds amazing with zobel. Actually...too good


Well, I was thinking of raising the impedance after 2kHz by cascaded zobel circuit but then dropped the idea as the treble loss would be severe


@Ivan TT is genius

@eunice would you drop a before and after frequency response for reference though


----------



## Ivan TT

eunice said:


> @Ivan TT you are definitively a genious


Thanks, but all the credit goes to @dhruvmeena96 as a major zobel advocate here.
If not for his efforts I would not even consider it, so much appreciated!


----------



## Ivan TT

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Well, today I saw kinera Idun deluxe edition.....
> That is a full wood IEM. How do they craft it....
> 
> Anybody on shell making, please enlighten me..


Check these out, no idea how though
https://m.intl.taobao.com/detail/detail.html?id=584691295187&spm=a2141.7631671.content.2091


----------



## Bassiklee

My guess:  five axis cnc router.  Jerrry Harvey does customs with wood shells,  CF shells,  whatever.


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## dhruvmeena96 (Apr 21, 2019)

Ivan TT said:


> Check these out, no idea how though
> https://m.intl.taobao.com/detail/detail.html?id=584691295187&spm=a2141.7631671.content.2091


Thanks  man....
That looks amazing

Just remove the polish and apply dark one....and it looks lit.

@Bassiklee thanks


Sorry I would be removing it(savant + RAB)

Its crap

MASM for life as the best triple driver ever built and heard in my standards.


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## eunice (Apr 22, 2019)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> With 22uF, the impedance drop between 1kHz and 2kHz would not have occurred.
> 
> @eunice would you drop a before and after frequency response for reference though



 

Change from 23.5uF to 22uF is not noticable. However I need 4 SMD caps to achieve 22uf while I can use two 47uF in series with polarity reversed to achieve 23.5uF.

The tube lengths of this measurement are kinda weird (approx 35mm) so the bass response is a little off and peaks are shifted a bit.


Spoiler: Distortion + Clarity


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Apr 22, 2019)

eunice said:


> Change from 23.5uF to 22uF is not noticable. However I need 4 SMD caps to achieve 22uf while I can use two 47uF in series with polarity reversed to achieve 23.5uF.
> 
> The tube lengths of this measurement are kinda weird (approx 35mm) so the bass response is a little off and peaks are shifted a bit.
> 
> ...


Well, I think distortion between 1kHz and 3kHz should drop more.....but I think it must be multi driver interaction and other factors may be effecting it.

Well I can see less distortion and more clarity(dont know clarity graph though, please enlighten how to read it, its something new for me) in treble region.

Interesting how zobel is working on multi driver.


Single driver drops distortion by a great margin(it actually levels it up)

But in measurement of yours, its showing more distortion in number, which seems weird.


----------



## eunice

I think clarity is impulse response, read details here : https://www.roomeqwizard.com/help/help_en-GB/html/graph_clarity.html


----------



## dhruvmeena96

eunice said:


> I think clarity is impulse response, read details here : https://www.roomeqwizard.com/help/help_en-GB/html/graph_clarity.html


OK....now I get it
So we are getting slight emphasis in speech and vocal intelligibility.
Impulse response.


Well, do you have a phase response bro... That is important
I know why you have more distortion

Series a capacitor increase ESR and bad properties of capacitor...and vice versa with parallel capacitor.

Resistor type also effect the sound change. Metal type like MELF or wirewound are the best. Carbon are worst.



Back to clarity.....this thing is new and may unlock something interesting for a study for me

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.davidgriesinger.com/ICA2013/What%20is%20Clarity4.pptx&ved=2ahUKEwjF7LiS0OPhAhWd6XMBHRYgCNoQFjAEegQIBxAB&usg=AOvVaw2uEvlDK3yL_u0oXVAueG6B


Download this ppt.
It has clarity and how it works. Even though frequency response didn't change, the raised clarity changes the tonality in that frequency region, which makes less strain to brain and lookup for human brain language and acoustic sensory part becomes easier....hmmm

So zobel is increasing the mid harmonic and treble quality in clarity part so it becomes less offensive and more clear and vibrant..

Now this tells why zobel sound so good. It just helps the brain to absorb musical information due to increased clarity in a specific region of frequency and load the eardrum less.

Hmmmm.....that's interesting


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## eunice (Apr 22, 2019)

Why do you think I have a problem with distortion? It seems fairly low to me, also I tested with very high volume.

Phase:


Could anyone enlighten me on how to make sense of a phase measurement like this? It seems logical that phase changes with frequency due to the fact that the mic is some distance away from the sound source. 
Is my measurement broken or is there another way to plot a phase graph that is more readable?


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Apr 22, 2019)

eunice said:


> Why do you think I have a problem with distortion? It seems fairly low to me, also I tested with very high volume.
> 
> Phase:
> 
> ...


That's mechanical phase.... It looks like this and will be used at the end.

It is used to understand the phase going to ear. Its is okay like this, actually good. Electrical phase should be flat, so mechanical phase is free from any electrical signal interference.
I used zobel for the same reason.

Show the electrical phase.

RAB32063 + zobel + 33ohm resistor + white damper + horn design

This cost less than TinAudio T2, have same sort of response in bass and mids(both have 3kHz peak)

@choy wei dei
He did make a lovely horn. I am just uploading it...it is his horn and his work.
He did 3mm from his nozzle.
You can ask him about the horn specs.









He gave me specs for horn and I stimulated it. Its better than TinAudio T2 in bass and mids and less sibilant than T2, which eliminate foam tips.

It is simply amazing


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Apr 22, 2019)

Clarity is an amazing concept. It is cumulation of a lot of things.
@eunice @Ivan TT @Choy Wei De
@Xymordos

I think most of people though clarity is treble and upper mid range, but when I read papers about it, I was enlightened. Man, it is amazing thing.

Well @Aurally mentioned dampers are evil in 2007
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/diy-universal-iem-from-er4s-to-f111-and-beyond.718262/


OK, clarity is field of sound perfected in phase, distortion leveled and many thing etc, which makes your brain perception or detail intake/ingestion easier.

The improvement of soundstage and so called presence filter by @Ivan TT was also due to the improvement of clarity in mids and treble. Because now his brain has to not process the analogous acoustic waveform by compensating phase issues, distortion etc etc. His brain directly skips the part to grammar look up table, which saves brain resources or headaches. Second, linear phase helps protect ear damage and muscle seem relaxed, so no treble loss. Third, since clarity saved brain resources from extra strenuous task of phase guessing and distortion elimination, brain can now start guess soundstage and imaging.

Now this looks promising. We have got a new important factor while designing / DIY IEMs now


RAB32063 with horn, Zobel, series resistor kills it. Treble extension is phenomenal, from single driver. Very silent noise operation, it sounds as black as it can, stage is also black, and is with immense clarity.

Well, does it sound like a multi driver?

No it doesn't, and that's a good thing. I can perfectly tell, its a single driver on steroids while producing clarity. Clarity seems more than ED29689, (WBFK as tweeter) etc.
 Never harsh treble, and too much "clarity" for single driver. But when I am listening, it always feel like single driver( I think increased clarity made my mind guess that it is single driver...lol)

Horn construction
Ask
@Choy Wei De



Well clarity means according to google and oxford dictionary
"the quality of being coherent and intelligible"

Coherent is reached due to flatter impedance and phase

Intelligible is something like horn to gain treble without effecting the above two.

IEM cannot be clear compared to headphone on bass part until or unless we have exotic drivers etc. Surface area is directly proportional to quality of bass.

@eunice you can see it too


----------



## eunice (Apr 22, 2019)

I am still thinking about how I measure electrical phase or what it even means in a 6 driver setup.

But what I can tell after short listening, imaging is really improved by the Zobel on Bellsing 6, sometimes I even have the feeling of music coming from behind and below. I never had that without the Zobel. Also voices, especially male vocals, sound more soft and natural. 

The characteristic however did not change and so the Bellsing 6 + Zobel is still lacking in the lower mid area. But it is one hell of a good sounding setup!


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## dhruvmeena96 (Apr 22, 2019)

eunice said:


> I am still thinking about how I measure electrical phase or what it even means in a 6 driver setup.
> 
> But what I can tell after short listening, imaging is really improved by the Zobel on Bellsing 6, sometimes I even have the feeling of music coming from behind and below. I never had that without the Zobel. Also voices, especially male vocals, sound more soft and natural.
> 
> The characteristic however did not change and so the Bellsing 6 + Zobel is still lacking in the lower mid area. But it is one hell of a good sounding setup!


Well, now we can play with clarity and distortion to improve our DIY game.....

Well RAB of mine is giving me trips...
@Choy Wei De horn design with zobel and resistor + white damper at damper location in horn.

This setup is trippy, serious warning, it can make you feel hallucinations.

Well its not that crazy, but it sounds like tinaudio T2 speed went twice and is more coherent, like a single sound.

I am also getting the sensation of below and behind, plus some on top of head also.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Apr 23, 2019)

RAB improvement(zobel + resistor) in MATLAB

this is something you may not be able to read....but the diagonal red line is standard plane of RAB clarity(well it is not clarity but summation of most parameters)

and blue line is total improvement
Its MATLAB plotting with Rate.

False positive rate(its total positive, forgot to correct the name) is total point of working

True positive is amount of point being positive. It is a scalar graph so take it as a complete grain of salt. It just tells that if there is an improvement or not


Logistic regression is area of point of increment







on X-axis frequency point scale

0.0 is 1Hz

0.2 is 500Hz
0.4 is 1.5kHz
0.6 is 4.5kHz
0.8 is 13.5kHz

1.0 is 20kHz


on Y axis improvement scale(compare to red line and every point is 20%improvement)

0.0 is 0%

0.2 means 20%
0.4 means 40%
.
.
.
1.0 means 100%



hope this helps
Series Resistor after zobel has big use.

Since we know how etymotic improved ER4 by releasing ER4s with 100ohms(97ohms) resistor. 100ohm resistor eat noise, lower signal, hence lowering diaphragm distortion. ED29689 was actually very good on high impedance as

DCR  = 100 ohms
Peak impedance  = 127 ohms

is actually better than stock ED29689

DCR = 3 ohms
peak Impedance = 30ohms




So series resistor does a lot of stuff in improvement


well on RAB + zobel, we were able to take the peak point impedance of 200ohms to 24ohms ~ 32ohms sorta.

and balances the impedance while damping the BA ringing and correcting the phase. adding 33ohms series resistance eats more distortion, flatten phase more and makes driver more silent increasing clarity to next level

@Xymordos
well can we make horn from carbon fiber tubing. I know the advantages. It will be more clear and more articulate

RAB and RAF is growing on me. I love this driver. Unlimited possibilities and potential. It can take some heavy hitting multi driver if it is designed properly




*Single Driver Perfection IEM project*

well, now we are missing
1. Helmholtz series resonator before the horn
2. linear horn rather than stepped horn


----------



## Kulgrinda

Well the top one can be crossed out... It is ED single driver setup ala Etymotic. Really thin sounding setup. RAB32257 even without any additional circuits sounded much better with better bass extension and more vibrant sound overall.

2 more setups to go


----------



## Xymordos

dhruvmeena96 said:


> @Xymordos
> well can we make horn from carbon fiber tubing. I know the advantages. It will be more clear and more articulate



Interesting read. I still have the incomplete project with the series-parallel 4xRAB32063 since I'm finishing off the tuning of the planar first. Looking at this, the original zobel doesn't need to be changed. What should the horn's design be? I got several sizes of carbon fiber tubes with me so I can definitely make a stepped horn with enough patience.


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## dhruvmeena96 (Apr 23, 2019)

Xymordos said:


> Interesting read. I still have the incomplete project with the series-parallel 4xRAB32063 since I'm finishing off the tuning of the planar first. Looking at this, the original zobel doesn't need to be changed. What should the horn's design be? I got several sizes of carbon fiber tubes with me so I can definitely make a stepped horn with enough patience.


Hmm

10mm lenght of 1.2mm ID
2mm lenght of 2.0mm ID(brown damper)
3mm lenght of 3mm tube


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## dhruvmeena96 (Apr 23, 2019)

Well, the formula for always getting perfect Helmholtz resonator buffer mouth on stepped horn.

The tail part of horn(small mouth) in above case is 1.2mm ID. Down or up it to near number. That is 1mm. That is our IDv.

So ID for resonator is 2*(IDv)*n
Where effect increases with value of N. Standard is 1
2mm ID

Length is 10mm. So resonator length is
L/4

Which gives us 2.5mm


So resonator is 2mm ID with 2.5mm length.

Now subtract the resonator length from original tubing length.

So

We get 7.5mm new length



So tubing would be

2mm tube(1.2mm ID)
Resonator
5.5mm tube(1.2mm ID)
2mm tube(2mm ID) -> white damper
3mm tube(3mm ID)

Resonator can be placed anywhere until or unless there is a specific need to be fulfilled(structure, mechanical grain etc)




Formula for simple resonator

I did promised it back then....but I was confused in shape and structure, but forgot that, in the end of the day, we are going to use tubes to make resonators.

These are not specifically resonators but are buffer, so when horn start boosting stuff, it helps horn spread the energy equally in required area so peaking doesn't occur and we get significant region uplift.

Since we have averaged the dB boosting over specific are of frequency instead of peak boosting, we gain slightly less dB. So, for that, we can drop damper by the value of 1.



So,

Stock- green
Horn stock - green
Horn zobel - brown
Horn zobel buffer - white


And if n is 3 in resonator formula or buffer formula, then drop the damper to grey.


Dropping dampers while tubing mechanically and electrically seems to improve clarity.


Formula works with horn having more than or equal to 10mm length in tail tube or small mouth



Please don't add resonator in RAB of MASM. It will kill the structure of sound which was intended


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## dhruvmeena96 (Apr 23, 2019)

Kulgrinda said:


> Well the top one can be crossed out... It is ED single driver setup ala Etymotic. Really thin sounding setup. RAB32257 even without any additional circuits sounded much better with better bass extension and more vibrant sound overall.
> 
> 2 more setups to go


I see called solder balls on MASM(5th image from top)
Well, damper placements are spot on.

MASM didn't have horn or resonator as GQ was fullfilling the treble.







New update.......

RAB32063 + zobel + 33 ohm resistance

It can be paired with CI-22960 and a yellow damper after 3/4th of tube from spout(15mm away from spout).


Tube is 20mm length 1.2mm ID(1mm works)

No crossovers, nothing more needed.

Bass response is lifted, improved bass clarity and amazing response....


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## dhruvmeena96 (Apr 24, 2019)

Here goes construction.....
Resonator, Horn , zobel , series Resistor, white damper

Stuffed everything to the RAB32063.

Diagram is bad..... But hope you get it.

One more thing....
Get MU-metal tape.

Cut small pieces and paste it on walls of BA(except solder points and BA spout, that is expected).

Clean work is needed, which helps BA looking clean and shiny, plus Mu-metal somewhat lowers hysteris losses, magnetic field compression and higher saturation point. Effect may be neglibile, but it may improve bass information, as it also makes it heavy.

The most overworked single BA design on headfi...


@Xymordos

Carbon fiber is overkill....as acrylic tube works also....but I was not able to find acrylic solid tubes....

Carbon fiber goodness doesn't only make bass good, but also makes the mids shine. That is because of carbon fiber coefficient of stiffness and reaction to air pressure. It is more stable for acoustic work.

Best single driver listened too after FIBAE1, FIBAE black and warbler prelude.

Rank is

FIBAE black(rank 1)

The single Driver project(rank 2)

Warbler prelude(rank 3)

FIBAE 1(rank ?????    It is still my favourite and I wanted single driver to be tuned somewhat like this)

Well, I am a custom-art neutral tuned fan boy(FIBAE 1, FIBAE 3) but this ranking was about technical achievement.

Didn't include ER4s and F111 because the I didn't wanted it to reach diffuse field


Thanks

@Ivan TT @IvanNOON @Xymordos @Kulgrinda @Choy Wei De @piotrus-g (Mr. Sensei) @Furco @Shilohsjustice @ForceMajeure @eunice


----------



## Xymordos

I'll see if I can construct it out of carbon fiber since the tube will start fraying if it is cut too small. I cover my BA drivers with copper tape sometimes if they're too close to each other, no idea if it helps but I'd like to think it does 

For your diagram, the tube sizes are (quoting you):
2mm tube(1.2mm ID)
Resonator
5.5mm tube(1.2mm ID)
2mm tube(2mm ID) -> white damper
3mm tube(3mm ID)

Whats the diameter of the resonator part?


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Apr 24, 2019)

Xymordos said:


> I'll see if I can construct it out of carbon fiber since the tube will start fraying if it is cut too small. I cover my BA drivers with copper tape sometimes if they're too close to each other, no idea if it helps but I'd like to think it does
> 
> For your diagram, the tube sizes are (quoting you):
> 2mm tube(1.2mm ID)
> ...


2mm x 2.5mm ID

In between

1.2mm ID 2mm length
1.2mm ID 5.5mm length

That is a buffer resonator. It is used to spread horn effect over an area of frequency instead of increasing the peaks. So we can have small boost over a large set of frequency, which seem more favourable. And change speed of air coming out of driver, without the use of damper, which helps in detail loss.

Sort of damping mechanism without physical damping. Sort of time domain correction. Ear likes to listen a little late. Andromeda is famous of because of that. And FIBAE black too.

It produces tone lag without loosing fundamental tone time.
12ms Lag.

Its like creation of artificial stage to compensate single driver


----------



## dhruvmeena96

....horn formula

dB(boost) = 20log(do/di)

Where log is log10

do is big mouth
di is small mouth





Fn = [c log(do/di)]/2piL

Where c is cutoff dB of frequency of driver in the end. 
L is lenght of horn.



Stepped horn has to be calculated for each step(for accurate results).



Resonator I designed was buffer. 
(Corrected formula, as just doing n on ID makes little difference)

Always remember to subtract lenght of resonator from tail tube of horn

2xIDxn = IDr

Where n is fixing number

For length
n(length/4) = Lr

We take n as default 1. To increase the power of buffer, increase value of n.


This resonator sits before the horn, or near driver. Its up to you where you wanna place the buffer resonator, just dont overlap it with horn. It should be

Tube-resonator-tube-horn

And if one driver is done, make the resonator same on other driver setup, I mean exact location on tubing, same size, same place.....to avoid variable energy curves in LR channels


----------



## ForceMajeure (Apr 24, 2019)

@dhruvmeena96  I am not sure I understand your resonator as you call it. what are you trying to achieve by it?

basically what you are doing is called duct acousitcs.

you create an acoustical impedance mismatch with enlarging that tube and narrowing it down back again. this will create some bouncing from reflected waves between the 2 smaller openings. it depends on the wavelength for it to be effective though
now, acoustic mismatch is also used to control certain behaviors like peaks but it can be is tricky especially when you want to correct spikes in the lower frequency range. since you'll need a rather long tube to make it happen

can you explain again what you try to do with the resonator (although it's more of a muffler)?


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Apr 24, 2019)

ForceMajeure said:


> @dhruvmeena96  I am not sure I understand your resonator as you call it. what are you trying to achieve by it?
> 
> basically what you are doing is called duct acousitcs.
> 
> ...


Yes its a muffler, but more of a buffer.

It buffers sound before going to the horn....check @Aurally post of from etymotic er4 to fitear f111.

Take it as a mouth for horn.

It dampens the peak, before amplifying, so it looks more of an averaged dB boost rather than peaky one...


And muffler is also a Resonator of a kind.

I did put the formula too

Simplified formula for buffer.
Increase the value of N and you get more muffling, without detail loss, like a damper.

It can get very long, as per the need(increase n values). But too much increase can muffle everything down.

Yes its a muffler(but this small size, act as a buffer).

And it does improve musicality.... So I love it

Thanks for this question, as I was missing this point in my explanation and how N effects the sound


Now its complete


----------



## Lucas Taboada

Hey everyone, about wires, everyone is using estron litz wire? like the one Soundlinks sells? I'm finding this wire too weak, they tend to break when I'm prototyping and moving parts a lot.. like assembling and disassembling the same driver/tubes multiple times. they don't seem to have a good resistance for that. If I'm mounting just one time and don't touch it anymore they work ok.

Dind't find any thicker litz wire, Any suggestions?


----------



## ForceMajeure

Lucas Taboada said:


> Hey everyone, about wires, everyone is using estron litz wire? like the one Soundlinks sells? I'm finding this wire too weak, they tend to break when I'm prototyping and moving parts a lot.. like assembling and disassembling the same driver/tubes multiple times. they don't seem to have a good resistance for that. If I'm mounting just one time and don't touch it anymore they work ok.
> 
> Dind't find any thicker litz wire, Any suggestions?



Personally I would suggest you to keep using those estron wires especially when prototyping. yes they have a tendency fray and they are "weak".
BUT that weakness is an advantage. they will not rip the solder pads apart from your drivers hanging from them, usually the wire will break before detaching/damaging the pads.
thin wires means short soldering times thus less chances of damaging the driver and pads. just a simple tap is good to get them attached.

they are easier to solder to drivers with small pads like twfk/swfk and co

These are my 2 cents but they come with ton of experience and some damaged drivers along the way.

especially for prototyping I would use them.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Lucas Taboada said:


> Hey everyone, about wires, everyone is using estron litz wire? like the one Soundlinks sells? I'm finding this wire too weak, they tend to break when I'm prototyping and moving parts a lot.. like assembling and disassembling the same driver/tubes multiple times. they don't seem to have a good resistance for that. If I'm mounting just one time and don't touch it anymore they work ok.
> 
> Dind't find any thicker litz wire, Any suggestions?


Take 2 wires, twist them and solder the ends...here you have a strong cable...

they are weak, but okay. Best for prototyping.


----------



## DannyBouwhuis

Lucas Taboada said:


> Hey everyone, about wires, everyone is using estron litz wire? like the one Soundlinks sells? I'm finding this wire too weak, they tend to break when I'm prototyping and moving parts a lot.. like assembling and disassembling the same driver/tubes multiple times. they don't seem to have a good resistance for that. If I'm mounting just one time and don't touch it anymore they work ok.
> 
> Dind't find any thicker litz wire, Any suggestions?



The solder pads are so weak, I've damaged so many drivers this way, I bought some thicker litz from tao a while ago, I'd guess like double the thickness of the soundlink wire and even that managed to pull of a solderpad from a swfk... Thinner wire is also a lot easier when there are lots of components in your iem, easier to move around, most importantly what forcem said: heat


----------



## DannyBouwhuis

Question, a few pages back dhruv concluded that clarity is the field of sound perfected in phase. And I read somewhere that soundstage is caused by the difference in phase between lower and higher frequencies for example, delay.  So its either stage or  clarity ?? Is this correct and is there a compromise ?


----------



## Lucas Taboada

ForceMajeure said:


> Personally I would suggest you to keep using those estron wires especially when prototyping. yes they have a tendency fray and they are "weak".
> BUT that weakness is an advantage. they will not rip the solder pads apart from your drivers hanging from them, usually the wire will break before detaching/damaging the pads.
> thin wires means short soldering times thus less chances of damaging the driver and pads. just a simple tap is good to get them attached.
> 
> ...



Got it!! thinking this way it really make sense. I will continue to work with this wire then, thank you and everyone for answering!


----------



## Furco

My lord!  This forum has accelerated out of the “middle” school level and straight into 4 year university knowledge and beyond.  Very impressed with the last 250 pages of contributions.  

Now for a dumb question:  Anyone have opinions about the Knowles GV-32830 (quad)?  I’ve got shells for my daughter sitting on my bench begging to get completed.


----------



## eunice

The Knowles GV is very good, definitively worth a build. It’s hard to beat.


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## eunice (Apr 24, 2019)

DannyBouwhuis said:


> Question, a few pages back dhruv concluded that clarity is the field of sound perfected in phase.



Clarity in the sense I posted it is just a fancy way of measuring  impulse response (e.g. amplitude in first 80ms of a Signal vs amplitude Overall)

Imagine you had a room with a lot of reverb, your brain would have a hard time to isolate the signal from the reverb and you would loose information about where the sound is coming from. You would describe that as less clear. 

But how do you measure ‚amount of reverb‘? The idea is that reverb builds up over time. You would first hear the original signal and then the reflections from the wall, adding volume to the original signal.  If there were no reverb in the room, the signal would stay at the same volume. That’s why the clarity measurement is the relation of the first 80ms of signal (which should by dry) to the rest of the signal.

Phase coherence is also necessary for clarity as it helps you pinpoint the source of the signal and therefore separate the signal you focus on from the rest. Again in a room with a lot of reverb you will have to concentrate harder to isolate the signal you want to hear.

Of course an IEM would not introduce a lot of reverb, but it not react quickly to a new signal, causing the same issue (less sharp / less clear sounds)



DannyBouwhuis said:


> And I read somewhere that soundstage is caused by the difference in phase between lower and higher frequencies for example, delay.  So its either stage or  clarity ?? Is this correct and is there a compromise ?



Soundstage is caused by the phase difference and timing. Exactly that is why IEM need to be able to accurately reproduce phase and impulses. So it’s not an either/or scenario, better impulse response and phase stability (=clarity) directly improves soundstage.

If you look at my Bellsing 6 measurements above SPL and distortion is almost the same with or without zobel. Yet the soundstage is absolutely improved by the Zobel. The only measurement that seems to show that is clarity.

The clarity graph by RoomEqWizard does not care about phase though, it is just a fancy way to display impulse response.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Apr 24, 2019)

DannyBouwhuis said:


> Question, a few pages back dhruv concluded that clarity is the field of sound perfected in phase. And I read somewhere that soundstage is caused by the difference in phase between lower and higher frequencies for example, delay.  So its either stage or  clarity ?? Is this correct and is there a compromise ?


Soundstage information is already there in the music itself. No need to make it worse with phases of drivers etc.
Imaging increases the soundstage construction. Soundstage is delay of phase in time space domain, whereas clarity is correction of electrical phase, so that driver can work in equilibrium. Second, all info is recorded in music and anything earphone adds(except for FR) just destroy the naturalness of staging.



Furco said:


> My lord!  This forum has accelerated out of the “middle” school level and straight into 4 year university knowledge and beyond.  Very impressed with the last 250 pages of contributions.
> 
> Now for a dumb question:  Anyone have opinions about the Knowles GV-32830 (quad)?  I’ve got shells for my daughter sitting on my bench begging to get completed.


Working on GV recently.
Finding a perfect point zobel to get the peaky TWFK dual impedance to normal.


Update(this is edited)
33uF capacitor and 35 ohm resistor for the zobel(still under test)

Yellow damper 8mm away from spout on HODVTEC
Green damper 4mm away from spout on TWFK

TWFK tubes are 10mm length 2mm ID
HODVTEC tube is 10mm length 2mm ID(can be experimented with lower ID, I will test)


Just make sure to open the HODVTEC vents open, so the driver internal pressurization can be released properly and bass can boost.(important)





eunice said:


> Clarity in the sense I posted it is just a fancy way of measuring  impulse response (e.g. amplitude in first 80ms of a Signal vs amplitude Overall)
> 
> Imagine you had a room with a lot of reverb, your brain would have a hard time to isolate the signal from the reverb and you would loose information about where the sound is coming from. You would describe that as less clear.
> 
> ...



@eunice
Well explained bro...


@DannyBouwhuis
Since IEM is near the eardrum, reverb are not a chance, and I didn't say about it. Well, what does electrical phase really means.

Directional queues come from the first arrival response. We judge arrival direction in well under a millisecond. However, judging what we are hearing takes longer. To determine spectral balance, the ear/brain combination analyzes the incoming sound typically over a 5 to 30ms interval. This interval is called the Haas fusion zone. Within this interval we are not aware of reflected sounds as separate spatial events. All of the sound appears to come from the direction of the first arrival. Lateral reflections from adjacent walls help extend the soundstage beyond the physical span of the loudspeakers. The comb filtering action of the many early reflections arriving at the listening position with varying phases adds a sense of spaciousness to the sound.

So anything after 30ms will sound like an echo or reflection. Since room can do it way better, veterans prefer loudspeaker in a well damped room. IEM dont have it and most of the signal ends up within Haas fusion zone instead of getting separated. And since most musician still use studio speakers instead of iem, this problem creates mashes of signal data which when fused with irregular electrical phases of BA, becomes technically useless info, which our brain is trying to decode. Like a bad audio file or corrupted video somewhat running. Phase, is angle of signal in graph at respect to zero. Dips mean, its starting late and peaks mean it is starting early from standard zero. It is because of some frequency impedance peaks and dip. If a frequency needs more voltage compared to other, it will take time, before it play and vice versa(in layman), so anywhere you see a high impedance peak, it is always followed by a phase dip

There are only two uses of the zobel filter

1. Linear phase
2. Linear impedance(to prevent signature change due to swinging)

Both helps our brain as somehow the phase is correct, so brain is left to untangle the time mess for certain tracks. And now new musicians are using IEM, it becomes a way lesser load for our brain.
So, the brain, instead of wasting the efficiency on other task, now would only see lookup table for grammar and process data, and enjoy the ambience.



And remember, ear loves to listen late

That's why loudspeaker sounds awesome
Then headphones
And then iem


Custom iem are different as they play on eardrum as intended by engineers, but cannot beat the old loudspeaker in a good damped room. (Condition is until or unless you go all out to match the impulse)


Well, I was creating an driver efficiency model from diaphragm to eardrum.

RAB design mentioned above is 72% efficient (exact value)....which is territory of planar magnetic headphone speeds for transient response.

RAB quad by @Xymordos is sitting at 86%. That is 4% away the STAX effortlessness sound(electrostatic bliss).

Etymotic ER4S was 68% efficient




For anyone starting new in IEM diy

-Try to make FR close to standard to a target (increases learning curve, but also teaches a lot more)
-Make impedance flat(via crossover or zobel)
-Try having flat phase response


I follow Harman kardon in ear target and sometimes diffuse field.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Furco said:


> My lord!  This forum has accelerated out of the “middle” school level and straight into 4 year university knowledge and beyond.  Very impressed with the last 250 pages of contributions.
> 
> Now for a dumb question:  Anyone have opinions about the Knowles GV-32830 (quad)?  I’ve got shells for my daughter sitting on my bench begging to get completed.


Well it is going to go even more crazier though. We all just started.

I was thinking of introducing cascaded circuit, series crossover, true resonator(still trying to comprehend what FIBAE black has, man @piotrus-g is genius), time domain correction, Ear compensation circuit etc


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Apr 24, 2019)

@Furco your setup at pg206 gave birth to MASM by the way.

@DannyBouwhuis 

Continuing
There is some evidence that large phase errors at low frequencies soften bass drum strikes. Loudspeakers develop large phase shifts near and below their low-end cutoff frequencies. This, in turn, produces group delays on the order of 5 to 15ms in that frequency range. Bass drum fundamentals then lag their upper harmonic components by this amount, which may explain this phenomenon. Countering this effect would require compensating bass amplitude and phase response flat down to below 10Hz or lower. This is the reason for muddy bass in old crappy earphones.

phase data is made up of two components: minimum phase and excess phase. The minimum phase response is related to the dips, peaks, and ripples in frequency magnitude response by a mathematical operation called the Hilbert transform. Any phase shift beyond this minimum phase shift is called excess phase, which is a measure of loudspeaker time dispersion. In particular, excess group delay, the derivative of excess phase with respect to frequency, has the units of time and is a measure of that dispersion.
 Treble phase delay is okay, but something where we are sensitive, like 100hz to 1kHz, 2kHz up to 7kHz...is really bad as it can also change tonality and structuring of soundstage on a detail aspect.



Well I think, this much theory is okay for now

Prerequisite for a real soundstage

1. Time space domain linearity
2. Phase linearity
3. Impedance linearity
4. Lower distortion(all kind)
5. Lower noise 
6. Less obstruction in sound path
7. Target response which focuses on soundstage like Harman Kardon target

Then to increase soundstage improve the parameters till 6 or increase some treble or bass


----------



## Furco

dhruvmeena96 said:


> @Furco your setup at pg206 gave birth to MASM by the way.



I’m truly honored and greatly appreciate you giving credit.  With all these advanced topics you’ve been discussing, I think it may be time for a new volume in the “definitive” diy guide.  I usually do that for selfish reasons; it allows me in to digest the topics being discussed.  It sounds like you’re bursting at the seams with exciting ideas.  Please stay motivated!  This is going to be a fun ride.


----------



## Xymordos

eunice said:


> Clarity in the sense I posted it is just a fancy way of measuring  impulse response (e.g. amplitude in first 80ms of a Signal vs amplitude Overall)
> 
> Imagine you had a room with a lot of reverb, your brain would have a hard time to isolate the signal from the reverb and you would loose information about where the sound is coming from. You would describe that as less clear.
> 
> ...



Would the results of this be similar to the waterfall graph?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Furco said:


> I’m truly honored and greatly appreciate you giving credit.  With all these advanced topics you’ve been discussing, I think it may be time for a new volume in the “definitive” diy guide.  I usually do that for selfish reasons; it allows me in to digest the topics being discussed.  It sounds like you’re bursting at the seams with exciting ideas.  Please stay motivated!  This is going to be a fun ride.


Well I am trickling some hearing aid tech 

Buffer horn(discussed)
Resonator
Cascaded circuit(advanced level)
Etc

I will be motivated as you guys taught me how to make hearing aids(even though you discussed IEM per se)


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Apr 24, 2019)

Xymordos said:


> Would the results of this be similar to the waterfall graph?


Naaaahhh.....
It is cumulative of many things which tell that the signal hitting the microphone is how much resolved. Waterfall is decay and energy distribution plotting and is a part of clarity testing. Impulse tells a lot of thing if we know how to read it.

For example the perfect impulse structure of Hifiman RE400 and 600.

Almost all BA iem in old time performed bad on impulse response(except TDK BA200 and FIBAE1)

The thing is, now companies are taking this seriously and we as homemade iem should also


----------



## DannyBouwhuis

@dhruvmeena96
@eunice 

Thanks for the awesome explanation, so adding delay would only create a 'artificial soundstage' I'm starting to understand some of this.. You guys are great !


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Apr 25, 2019)

DannyBouwhuis said:


> @dhruvmeena96
> @eunice
> 
> Thanks for the awesome explanation, so adding delay would only create a 'artificial soundstage' I'm starting to understand some of this.. You guys are great !



LOL, you only got this much after so much effort we gave in explaining stuff. I think we were a little to technical in explanation, so in Layman

Well, you are right, but adding delay can also create echoes and stuff.

Simply speaking, what we were doing is segregating details which are flowing on different time in between 5ms and 30ms(up to 80ms actually) on a time domain.
The more we segregate, the more you hear and less brain work. Its hard to explain, so read the above stuff carefully

Reposting it

1. Time space domain linearity
2. Phase linearity
3. Impedance linearity
4. Lower distortion(all kind)
5. Lower noise
6. Less obstruction in sound path
7. Target response which focuses on soundstage like Harman Kardon target

These all are needed for soundstage


----------



## ChrisJensen

Hey guys, ran into some questions for the mmcx connector I'm about to get.





Is this MMCX connector okay to be used? And if so where do the positive and negative ends of the two wires go?
I'm assuming the positive one goes to the middle and the other negative end can be soldered to either the left or right side of this connector. Is this right?

Thanks!


----------



## dhruvmeena96

ChrisJensen said:


> Hey guys, ran into some questions for the mmcx connector I'm about to get.
> 
> 
> Is this MMCX connector okay to be used? And if so where do the positive and negative ends of the two wires go?
> ...


center is always positive, so the post protruding out is positive. Negative can go on any of the corners/casing.


----------



## ChrisJensen

dhruvmeena96 said:


> center is always positive, so the post protruding out is positive. Negative can go on any of the corners/casing.


Thanks my good sir!


----------



## Squirg

ChrisJensen said:


> Thanks my good sir!



I like to clip the terminals down a little to make more room for other components inside the shell.  Sometimes (depending on how much room I need) I will clip them off completely and leave only a small nub for the middle/positive terminal.

I like MMCX over 2 pin personally (however not all 2-pins are created equal).  But, overall I prefer MMCX.  I like to buy the silver? zinc? coated ones.  They seem to be a little better quality.

Happy building!


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Apr 25, 2019)

https://www.mathworks.com/matlabcen...of-loudspeaker-frequency-response-with-matlab

this is how i measure stuff, parameters of calibration can be added as per any mic when compared to standard response
Gone too much pro
LOL



ChrisJensen said:


> Thanks my good sir!


no need


Well, i was comparing prices with driver count and sound

Bellsing 6(10013) + zobel and tuning may be the cheapest flagship 6 driver present, if we can fix the bass amount issues.
Easily smashes Westone w40 and soundstage is bigger than w60(w60 slams harder)

Red damper on HODVTEC wannabe
Brown damper on both TWFK wannabe(shared 3mm ID tube)


Ok, i have started Working with ED29689 for flatter impedance model, and near electrostatic sound signature(_Dont focus on Sound signature here...this is more simpler design and i though of improving the tech more than sound signature_)

there is something that RAB cannot do, that this driver can do
something like canal works CW-L05QD2

tune it like etymotic ER4 when placing dampers


you need 4 x  ED29689

Step 1
connect 100 ohms resistance(MELF) with ED29689. This is called as driver assembly Z

Step 2
Repeat with remaining three drivers. you would be having 4 x driver assembly Z

Step 3
parallel all the driver assembly Z.



since you have 4xED29689. Two will share the same tube

tubing 8mm length x 2mm ID
damper placement at 6mm length
1500ohm Green damper



Not complete .....


----------



## eunice

Just FYI: Bellsing seems to call the bass driver of the 6 driver a DTEC.


----------



## Squirg

BTW, just got some of these bad boys...

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/TRN...247.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.54b74c4dXcdsgk

After a frustrating setup, I can say they are AWESOME!  No more wire around my neck to get tangled up, better battery life, automatically sync up, better latency, and further range than others that I have tried.  Sound is good, but like all BT adapters, not for audiophiles.  

Sorry if this is the wrong thread for this...


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Apr 25, 2019)

eunice said:


> Just FYI: Bellsing seems to call the bass driver of the 6 driver a DTEC.


Thanks.....hmmm wait

That's the reason the bass is weak
And I didn't saw the tape on my set


Squirg said:


> BTW, just got some of these bad boys...
> 
> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/TRN...247.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.54b74c4dXcdsgk
> 
> ...


Its about making an iem, so its wrong thread
LoL
DIY group and not a review one

But still thanks


----------



## eunice

Squirg said:


> BTW, just got some of these bad boys...
> 
> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/TRN...247.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.54b74c4dXcdsgk
> 
> ...


I use these on the go: 
FiiO RC-BR https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/
The FiiO has real problems with original Bellsing 6, but Bellsing 6 + Zobel sounds really good with them. Still not as good as a cable or even dragonfly black, but definitively good enough to enjoy listening. 

I will try the ones you suggested and post a comparison.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

eunice said:


> I use these on the go:
> FiiO RC-BR https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/
> The FiiO has real problems with original Bellsing 6, but Bellsing 6 + Zobel sounds really good with them. Still not as good as a cable or even dragonfly black, but definitively good enough to enjoy listening.
> 
> I will try the ones you suggested and post a comparison.


Both of you....its wrong thread altogether
@eunice man....you went in the flow like water...damm


----------



## ChrisJensen

Squirg said:


> I like to clip the terminals down a little to make more room for other components inside the shell.  Sometimes (depending on how much room I need) I will clip them off completely and leave only a small nub for the middle/positive terminal.
> 
> I like MMCX over 2 pin personally (however not all 2-pins are created equal).  But, overall I prefer MMCX.  I like to buy the silver? zinc? coated ones.  They seem to be a little better quality.
> 
> Happy building!



Thanks for the suggestion!

Btw, I was looking at the internals for the Campfire Andromeda and realised that the wiring seems off. The red ones (positive) seem to be soldered to one corner, while the green ones (negative) are soldered to the center and the other corner for the connections. Can anyone seem to explain this? Thanks!


----------



## ChrisJensen

Btw, has anyone tried the combo that the campfire andromeda uses?

Quote from reddit: 
"The bottom or part facing the underside of the headphone is the HODVTEC-31618/

The BK-26824 is stacked on top of it.

The nozzle is TWFK-30017."

Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/DIEMs/comments/7tzfhi/campfire_andromeda_and_its_internals/


----------



## Squirg

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Thanks.....hmmm wait
> 
> That's the reason the bass is weak
> And I didn't saw the tape on my set
> ...





dhruvmeena96 said:


> Both of you....its wrong thread altogether
> @eunice man....you went in the flow like water...damm



Yes...I realize this.  Thanks for pointing that out.

Cheers


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Apr 25, 2019)

ChrisJensen said:


> Thanks for the suggestion!
> 
> Btw, I was looking at the internals for the Campfire Andromeda and realised that the wiring seems off. The red ones (positive) seem to be soldered to one corner, while the green ones (negative) are soldered to the center and the other corner for the connections. Can anyone seem to explain this? Thanks!


That may be the game of reverse polarity.

I have tried a setup like this
But with ED29689 and SWFK
Alongside HODVTEC


And I was correcting the freq response in electrical way rather than mechanical way like andromeda

And MASMv2 eats Andromeda as lunch(sorry to say that, but I tried both)


Andromeda tuning is peculiar

Once you see the response, it makes you confuse that FR shows it warm, where the listening is shimmering and slightly tending to bright.


Get a warm tuning and add instant airy peak, to make warm tuning look cooler. So it produces the stage due to brain confused in perceiving the sound as warm, heavy or bright. It cancel the brain thinking, putting it on full stop and make you think bigger stage(happens with me too)

@Choy Wei De doesnt like Andromeda because his brain keeps on processing and doesnt shuts off. Which makes him dont like it.

Its unconventional, revolutionary design and is amazing set of hardware.


----------



## ChrisJensen

dhruvmeena96 said:


> That may be the game of reverse polarity.
> 
> I have tried a setup like this
> But with ED29689 and SWFK
> ...



This is some amazing review. Can't wait to try MASM!! Thank you for your hard work and sharing!

Btw, what's the difference between V3 and V2?

This recipe below is V3 right?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

ChrisJensen said:


> This is some amazing review. Can't wait to try MASM!! Thank you for your hard work and sharing!
> 
> Btw, what's the difference between V3 and V2?
> 
> This recipe below is V3 right?


This is V2
There is no V3, but a more treble version and a V-shape version of MASM(except V1 and V2)

V2 sounds less focused, and more natural with heavy hitting bass compared to V1


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Apr 25, 2019)

Knowles official soldering guide to prevent your drivers from dying

https://www.knowles.com/docs/default-source/default-document-library/an-13-issue02.pdf?sfvrsn=4


----------



## ChrisJensen

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Knowles official soldering guide to prevent your drivers from dying
> 
> https://www.knowles.com/docs/default-source/default-document-library/an-13-issue02.pdf?sfvrsn=4


Thanks my good man!




Btw, are these capacitors and resistors the right one to buy? Can I just buy these and solder the wires to either sides of these?


----------



## Kulgrinda (Apr 26, 2019)

Quote from Knowles soldering document:
"Dwell time: The soldering iron should not remain in continuous contact with the transducer terminal for longer than 3 seconds. Knowles recommends 1 second maximum as normal practice.
Temperature: It should not exceed *400°C *(750°F) for passive components or *370°C* (700°F) for components with integrated circuits (microphones). Temperatures *below 340°C* (640°F) are not recommended for most processes.
Lower soldering temperature does not always mean that the transducer is heated less. A low soldering temperature may result in a longer dwell time to melt the solder and a hotter transducer."

So don't use too low heat soldering iron.

And I'll definitely have to try heat sink, seems very logical. 

Yesterday after measuring impedance of the whole circuit I noticed some difference, I might have damaged one GQ driver...


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Apr 26, 2019)

Kulgrinda said:


> Quote from Knowles soldering document:
> "Dwell time: The soldering iron should not remain in continuous contact with the transducer terminal for longer than 3 seconds. Knowles recommends 1 second maximum as normal practice.
> Temperature: It should not exceed *400°C *(750°F) for passive components or *370°C* (700°F) for components with integrated circuits (microphones). Temperatures *below 340°C* (640°F) are not recommended for most processes.
> Lower soldering temperature does not always mean that the transducer is heated less. A low soldering temperature may result in a longer dwell time to melt the solder and a hotter transducer."
> ...


That's why i apply solder flux on contact point and wire(tape other contact point) and go 390c on temperature and just touch the excessive solder flux with solder. It cools the driver(solder) while getting me perfect point on soldering. Flux attracts solder like magnet.

For cooling, get a steel plate and cheap thermal pad tape.

Stick small amount of thermal pad on steel plate and stick BA driver on pad. This will cool enough.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Apr 26, 2019)

I have

RAB32033 and an ED29689

I am going to make cascaded circuit where ED29689 is tweeter and RAB is full range. No half coiling and other things

Can anybody tell me the capacitor for crossing the ED29689. I need 10kHz boost while the roll off in bass should have very slight 2kHz bump, so I can get some 2kHz bump with 3kHz.

OK, I chose ED29689 as tweeter because of super low impedance, because it will serve for my cascaded multi stage impedance matching circuit. I cannot increase its resistance.


And I would be using SMD inductors. Let's see


I have one more setup where ED29689 is running full range with RAB32257. I think, as per graph, it should sound amazing. I am still in designing phase.

I would be posting the schematics


Update

Make
RAB32257+ zobel + resistor 33ohms
ED29698 + 50ohms resistor

Parallel both of them

Make them share 3mm ID tube
Then add a 2mm ID 3mm OD(4mm length)
Make the same horn as Single RAB

1.2mm ID 2mm OD(10mm length with resonator in between and horn in end)
Green damper

This works better as a set...somehow
More focus on vocal harmonics
Less shimmer than single RAB
Bigger air extension on highest point


----------



## zekester

eunice said:


> Change from 23.5uF to 22uF is not noticable. However I need 4 SMD caps to achieve 22uf while I can use two 47uF in series with polarity reversed to achieve 23.5uF.
> 
> The tube lengths of this measurement are kinda weird (approx 35mm) so the bass response is a little off and peaks are shifted a bit.
> 
> ...



What was your tubing configuration for this measurement? Is this with one tube stretched over the top spouts, or one tube per spout? What dampers did you wind up using on which tubes? Thanks!


----------



## eunice (Apr 26, 2019)

This measurement is done with weird tubes. One tube stretched over the two TWFK, one tube for the DTEC, around 3cm in length and no dampers. 

My final setup is shortest tubes possible (14mm for my CIEMS) with orange damper on DTEC and white damper on TWFK. I insert the dampers at the end of the tubes to be able to switch them to my liking after assembling the CIEM.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

eunice said:


> This measurement is done with weird tubes. One tube stretched over the two TWFK, one tube for the DTEC, around 3cm in length.
> 
> My final setup is shortest tubes possible (14mm for my CIEMS) with orange damper on DTEC and white damper on TWFK. I insert the dampers at the end of the tubes to be able to switch them to my liking after assembling the CIEM.





zekester said:


> What was your tubing configuration for this measurement? Is this with one tube stretched over the top spouts, or one tube per spout? What dampers did you wind up using on which tubes? Thanks!


well, he is putting the damper at the end of tube for his convenience of changing and replacing it. 
If you want to make the tuning permanent and make damper wear and tear less

then follow a good rule
change the damper by +1
orange turns to yellow
white turns brown

when you are making it permanent by putting damper in center

@eunice 

well, there is something funny going on with my two pairs
MASMv2, RAB32063(perfected) and RAB32033(perfected)
well, i would keep MASM out of equation for now, but my RAB has defeated many multi driver setups i have
even though signature is pretty common and easily available, but there is a feeling of effortlessness going on.

RAB32033 gives me the most effortless bass ever and doesn't feel like BA or Dynamic. Something near to a audeze LCD2c kinda bass in presentation

i am happy, because it is the cheapest build i did and i think would be cheapest on this thread


----------



## zekester

eunice said:


> This measurement is done with weird tubes. One tube stretched over the two TWFK, one tube for the DTEC, around 3cm in length and no dampers.
> 
> My final setup is shortest tubes possible (14mm for my CIEMS) with orange damper on DTEC and white damper on TWFK. I insert the dampers at the end of the tubes to be able to switch them to my liking after assembling the CIEM.





dhruvmeena96 said:


> well, he is putting the damper at the end of tube for his convenience of changing and replacing it.
> If you want to make the tuning permanent and make damper wear and tear less
> 
> then follow a good rule
> ...



All of this makes sense, thank you. I was looking at the effect of doubling the red and was seeing very different results from what you were posting. Have you seen any benefit to running a third tube?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

zekester said:


> All of this makes sense, thank you. I was looking at the effect of doubling the red and was seeing very different results from what you were posting. Have you seen any benefit to running a third tube?


Making individual tubes for driver will just help in further fine tuning and nothing else...up to you..it will help in structuring the peaks rather than just damping it. But triplebore will make the tuning just more confusing


----------



## Xymordos (Apr 26, 2019)

Xymordos said:


> The planar drivers are a major pain to tune -  I tested it with a 15mm length x 2mm diameter tube, if you leave the back port open, you get the red line, if you block the back port (probably really not recommended), you get the green line...Due to the complete suck out in the treble, I probably will need to plug up the treble with some BA drivers.



Phew finally finished the planar IEM. So the config was:
1x 37AP015 as a subwoofer (0 to ~250Hz)
1x 14mm Planar driver for mids and super tweeter (0 to ~1kHz, and 7kHz up)
2x GD60599 for treble (~1kHz to 7kHz)

As I mentioned before, the planar driver had a gaping hole in the frequency response in the treble regions, which I had to plug it up with the GD drivers. Due to physical limitations, the planar's sub bass is terrible, which I boosted with the Sonion 3700 driver.

The planar sounded very effortless and relaxed compared to regular BA drivers. Though it had less details than a multidriver BA IEM imo. The bass is PHYSICAL. Soundstage is surprisingly wide, and imaging is scarily good for an IEM. However, the planar driver seems to be fully open - both front and back vent is needed and you can't get a seal. Though not the most detailed IEM I've made, it's definitely the best sounding one, and pure BA drivers really can't get this bass - it's slamming your head!



Spoiler: Photos








 









Would like to improve on the ~8kHz resonant peaks of the planar driver, but was not able to get it to go away and any efforts will reduce the already very low output of the planar driver for the mids. The 5kHz peak looks scary but doesn't actually intrude when I actually listened to it. Luckily I managed to control the impedance quite well and it is quite flat and not too wonky.



Spoiler: Measurements





 





Got 10mm planar drivers coming soon and will be playing around with them.


----------



## eunice

zekester said:


> All of this makes sense, thank you. I was looking at the effect of doubling the red and was seeing very different results from what you were posting. Have you seen any benefit to running a third tube?


I have not tried the third tube, as it would be to cumbersome for me to build a CIEM with 3 bores and 2mm ID tubes. I might try at some point in the future, but I am not yet into  acoustical tuning at all. 

I use shortest possible two bore 2mm ID tubes for now. Not because it’s best, but because the few things I tried did not improve on it and the prospect of really learning the ins and outs of acoustics is pretty scary for me. I’ll save that for later


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Apr 26, 2019)

Xymordos said:


> Phew finally finished the planar IEM. So the config was:
> 1x 37AP015 as a subwoofer (0 to ~250Hz)
> 1x 14mm Planar driver for mids and super tweeter (0 to ~1kHz, and 7kHz up)
> 2x GD60599 for treble (~1kHz to 7kHz)
> ...


From where are you getting 10mm planar driver.
It would be crazy to have one, which you can fit anywhere

Nice


By the way, if you want 10kHz peak, add WBFK with 0.47uF


Its one of the most amazing response

@DannyBouwhuis
Clarity is effortlessness shown by the driver/drivers. The coherency is on point and speed of transient changes is immediate and how much you can catch the lyrics without effort from your side


----------



## ChrisJensen

Kulgrinda said:


> Quote from Knowles soldering document:
> "Dwell time: The soldering iron should not remain in continuous contact with the transducer terminal for longer than 3 seconds. Knowles recommends 1 second maximum as normal practice.
> Temperature: It should not exceed *400°C *(750°F) for passive components or *370°C* (700°F) for components with integrated circuits (microphones). Temperatures *below 340°C* (640°F) are not recommended for most processes.
> Lower soldering temperature does not always mean that the transducer is heated less. A low soldering temperature may result in a longer dwell time to melt the solder and a hotter transducer."
> ...



Are there any other ways to test if any of the drivers are spoiled during the soldering? Or is testing the impedance of the overall circuit only the way to go? What device do I need to buy to test for this?  A volt meter?

Thanks in advance!


----------



## eunice

A simple volt meter will tell you whether you broke any wires or solder pads. Just measure the resistance.

But best is to check the frequency response and distortion, it will tell you whether there is any mechanical defect too.

There is advice in this thread in how to do that, search for 2cc coupler.


----------



## Choy Wei De

I pull the trigger and purchase a Dayton imm 6. I read in the thread, some say use pink noise and some say white noise (FTT and the other one).

Planning to use it together with my iPhone. What software/app would you recommend and how would you set up the tubing for measurement?


----------



## eunice

Hmm, don’t know about iPhone, but the free and open source RoomEqWizard seems to do the job for me, at least I did not find any limitations. It’s available for multiple platforms but not iOS AFAIK.


----------



## Kiina

Okay just a sanity check. I soldered ED-29689 directly to the MMCX (I probably need to redo it later because I just noticed I might have messed up the polarity). Now I take a 1.5mm ID tube, cut to to around 1cm, take a tube that fits the damper and the small tube, put a green damper (does it matter in which direction?) right after the small tube (so at around 1cm) and cut the big tube in the length I need for my custom. Does that sound right?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Kiina said:


> Okay just a sanity check. I soldered ED-29689 directly to the MMCX (I probably need to redo it later because I just noticed I might have messed up the polarity). Now I take a 1.5mm ID tube, cut to to around 1cm, take a tube that fits the damper and the small tube, put a green damper (does it matter in which direction?) right after the small tube (so at around 1cm) and cut the big tube in the length I need for my custom. Does that sound right?


Which build you are trying

Normal ED29689


----------



## Kiina

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Which build you are trying
> 
> Normal ED29689



Ety ER4 but in a custom housing. That's why i'm not sure if the sound will come out similar with the tubing. My components for other builds also arrived, but i feel like there is no way for me to solder these 0805 smds, so before I mess up MASM I need to get back to some simple soldering first.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Kiina said:


> Ety ER4 but in a custom housing. That's why i'm not sure if the sound will come out similar with the tubing. My components for other builds also arrived, but i feel like there is no way for me to solder these 0805 smds, so before I mess up MASM I need to get back to some simple soldering first.


Hmmm

Have you measured the tube

4mm length/ 1.5mm ID /2mm OD
And then a damper(green)
Total length comes near 6mm

@ClieOS can help you on that....I guess

Try making FITear suyama F111
That would be real STEP UP from Etymotic er4(since its more diffuse field then er4).

See the GBA null video from snazzy labs and you will get the soldering trick for MASM.


----------



## Xymordos

dhruvmeena96 said:


> From where are you getting 10mm planar driver.
> It would be crazy to have one, which you can fit anywhere
> 
> Nice
> ...



I managed to get in contact with the planar driver manufacturer directly. They produce 14mm and 10mm planar drivers, both the same price at RMB580 per matched pair, pretty expensive.


----------



## Kiina

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Hmmm
> 
> Have you measured the tube
> 
> ...



Hm, I was looking at some chinese facebook post which got linked and google translate said 1cm for the small tube. But looking at the relation of driver size to tube length on the photos it seems a bit long. So maybe 4mm is right. But I don't cut the outer tube after 6mm? Else the damper would sit right next to the ear, or is that fine? Feels like it wouldn't fit as the driver is in the ear canal then? I think my tube is 2.5mm OD as that's the one soundlink has. But in the 2.5mm ID tube around that, the damper seems to fit perfectly


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Kiina said:


> Hm, I was looking at some chinese facebook post which got linked and google translate said 1cm for the small tube. But looking at the relation of driver size to tube length on the photos it seems a bit long. So maybe 4mm is right. But I don't cut the outer tube after 6mm? Else the damper would sit right next to the ear, or is that fine? Feels like it wouldn't fit as the driver is in the ear canal then? I think my tube is 2.5mm OD as that's the one soundlink has. But in the 2.5mm ID tube around that, the damper seems to fit perfectly


See, I may not be that clear....but er4 nozzle measure 6.5mm with damper at end. And damper measure 2mm, so the small tube is 4mm in length.

4mm(1.2mm ID or 1.5mm ID)
2mm(2mm or 2.5mm ID)-damper sits here

Dont forget to add a series resistor of 20 ohms(er4) and 97ohms(er4s)


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Apr 27, 2019)

Xymordos said:


> I managed to get in contact with the planar driver manufacturer directly. They produce 14mm and 10mm planar drivers, both the same price at RMB580 per matched pair, pretty expensive.


Well we have touched planar, and have done many BA
Dont you think, its time to touch the roots back again


https://www.earphonediylabs.com/sho...rivers-flagship-product-of-earphone-diy-labs/

Try this.....every penny worthwhile and is small enough.

Its really a Tesla driver and is faster than toneking BL1 planar(way way faster).
Needs tuning

But the best part is that it has good amount of bass but doesnt like to decay much.

8mm driver.
And it really goes to 48kHz by Gras coupler.

https://www.earphonediylabs.com/shop/earphone-drivers/1-pair-2-pieces-10mm-sennheiser-ie80-drivers/

This 10mm driver



I am thinking of creating crossover with 10mm driver doing till 150Hz and then shifted to 8mm driver.

Then end the treble with GD for airyness(its seem more organic and sweeter than SWFK for some reason) even though its unnecessary.


Or should I run both of them in fullrange


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Apr 27, 2019)

Found out a good subwoofer
Faster than sonion woofer
HODTEC 31268(it doesnt have vents)
Friend did a build

DCR 72ohms

Thinking of making SCARY again(improved and having 1 driver extra)

Yellow damper
1x HODTEC 31268(zobel and crossed at 50Hz)

Brown damper
1x RAB 32033(zobel and fullrage)

Zero damping(1.5uF capacitor reverse polarity)
1x SWFK 32254(resonator where n=2)

Total 5 drivers
No heavy resistor damping

Any experienced builder who wanna help me in this one for sorting out the tubing....
@Xymordos @piotrus-g @Furco @ForceMajeure @Shilohsjustice

HODTEC 31268
DCR = 72ohms
Zobel will dampen it furthur
Subwoofer level inductance, so when zobel is applied, it would be even more clear in bass transient and is more powerful than HODVTEC as its a bass driver and because it rolls oh heavily.....this BA cannot do full range at all, so I think, I would not be even needing a crossover to begin with(just damper will do it)

RAB32033
Low sensitivity so no electrical damping, but will think of RS1
As per Harman Kardon target, peak should be at 3kHz and should role very slowly towards 7kHz where it starts to roll. Condition is tight decay otherwise ringing and harshness will creep

SWFK32254
Easiest SWFK for pairing and never harsh. This will help RAB32063 to do the 3kHz to 7kHz straight response.


It may not be like original SCARY, but the name came into existence because of its level of difficulty. I did think a lot before selecting the drivers. Please correct me if I have selected anything wrong


----------



## Xymordos

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Well we have touched planar, and have done many BA
> Dont you think, its time to touch the roots back again
> 
> 
> ...



Umm...the same driver is being sold for US$1.5 in Taobao...hahaha https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?sp...KldJiP&id=584332169751&ns=1&abbucket=9#detail

GD's treble extension is lacking though. I ended up never liking any of the dynamic drivers I used before except one - most drivers you buy online really suck compared to BA drivers. Sure you get a nice dynamic bass but it lacks all the details.

I used HODTEC31268 before as mids - they were quite dry but very clear. They were really flat so I used a CI22955 as the bass driver instead.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Xymordos said:


> Umm...the same driver is being sold for US$1.5 in Taobao...hahaha https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?sp...KldJiP&id=584332169751&ns=1&abbucket=9#detail
> 
> GD's treble extension is lacking though. I ended up never liking any of the dynamic drivers I used before except one - most drivers you buy online really suck compared to BA drivers. Sure you get a nice dynamic bass but it lacks all the details.
> 
> I used HODTEC31268 before as mids - they were quite dry but very clear. They were really flat so I used a CI22955 as the bass driver instead.


Those two are not same driver...

I had same looking driver as cheapo build from aliexpress at 5$...


These are really different....it just shoot details like arrow...
But its up to you
And TinAudio T2 is an example that dynamics sounds better than BA at same price or even higher.

But still your choice....as planar are more efficient on detail retrieval and I cannot question on that

HODTEC31268 doesn't sound dry on my friends setup. 
And I am using RAB32033(bassy driver) to evenly boost some more. HODTEC is to increase clarity presence.


----------



## Xymordos

Dynamics can sound very good - just hard to source good drivers. https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1z0d.6639537.1997196601.458.211b7484E4un7D&id=537461531778 This is a driver I tried before and sound very very good - the diaphragm is a solid piece of metal.

The HODTEC31268 IEM I made was quite long ago, one of the first ones I've DIY'd actually, but it still sounds very very clear and measures very well even compared to the new ones I've made despite the crossover being completely unoptimized. I'd actually like to try rebuilding this one with optimized crossovers.

If you can buy things off aliexpress, you can take a look at these:
Piezo driver: https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1z0d.6639537.1997196601.449.211b7484E4un7D&id=571070296587
JVC FW01 wood driver: https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1z0d.6639537.1997196601.291.211b7484E4un7D&id=530551052919
Another solid metal diaphragm driver: https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1z0d.6639537.1997196601.433.211b7484E4un7D&id=574156031554
JVC DLC driver: https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?sp...WEFFK&scm=1007.13066.127260.0&id=566289806465


----------



## Xymordos

Actually the main thing I liked about the planar driver wasn't the detail retrieval, it was the ultra smooth sound coupled with the realistic bass and imaging.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

@Xymordos I made you open the treasure chest

Did you realise that


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Apr 27, 2019)

_*WHY DOES OUTPUT IMPEDANCE MATTER?* It matters for at least three reasons:_

_The greater the output impedance the greater the voltage drop with lower impedance loads. This drop can be large to enough to prevent driving low impedance headphones to sufficiently loud levels. A real world example is the Behringer UCA202 with a 50 ohm output impedance. It struggles with some 16 - 32 ohm headphones._
_Headphone impedance changes with frequency. If the output impedance is much above zero this means the voltage delivered to the headphones will also change with frequency. The greater the output impedance, the greater the frequency response deviations. Different headphones will interact in different, and typically unpredictable, ways with the source. Sometimes these variations can be large and plainly audible._
_As output impedance increases electrical damping is reduced. The bass performance of the headphones, as designed by the manufacture, may be audibly compromised if there’s insufficient damping. The bass might become more “boomy” and less controlled. The transient response becomes worse and the deep bass performance is compromised (the headphones will roll off sooner at low frequencies). A few, such as those who like a very warm “tube like” sound, might enjoy this sort of under damped bass. But it’s almost always less accurate compared to using a low impedance source._
That's why HODVTEC sounded better with zobel...
Never thought why zobel RAB32033 goes to CI level deep

@DannyBouwhuis @Choy Wei De @Xymordos @eunice
@IvanNOON
@Ivan TT
@Kulgrinda

As impedance increases in a point, so is voltage

V= IR

This makes amp more power to send required amount of voltage to get same work done

And as peak frew V is needed higher than other freq V, it takes time for electron to reach max buffer state, which makes it late, creating phase issues. Plus amp heats up more, creating amp based distortion higher on that specific frequency

Aaahhh

Euphoric epiphany(hit me like a trROFL


Hope this helps people understand why HODVTEC is hard to tune for subbass operations
ROFL


----------



## ChrisJensen

Hey Druvmeena96, can you help to check if the drawing of the circuit for the MASM2 is accurate? I'm not sure if the connections to the positive and negative terminals are right.

Also, when I use a multimeter to measure the resistance of the circuit, it should be around 59.2 ohms right? 

Appreciate all the help here!


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Apr 28, 2019)




----------



## ChrisJensen

dhruvmeena96 said:


>


Thank you!! Just to clarify, the dotted lines connecting to the positive end of the mmcx driver is simply a wire connection that can be replaced with a resistor?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

ChrisJensen said:


> Thank you!! Just to clarify, the dotted lines connecting to the positive end of the mmcx driver is simply a wire connection that can be replaced with a resistor?


Yes

If you drive higher, or think impedance is lower
So be in safe side

Add 8ohms


----------



## ChrisJensen

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Yes
> 
> If you drive higher, or think impedance is lower
> So be in safe side
> ...



I will be driving with a normal handphone with no DAC inside, so it may not be necessary. But I will buy a 10ohm resistor just in case (can't find 8ohm sadly) 

Thanks a lot once again, my good man! You have been the most helpful!


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Apr 28, 2019)

ChrisJensen said:


> I will be driving with a normal handphone with no DAC inside, so it may not be necessary. But I will buy a 10ohm resistor just in case (can't find 8ohm sadly)
> 
> Thanks a lot once again, my good man! You have been the most helpful!


Just make sure you check the terminal of drivers carefully according to diagram.

8ohms to 16ohms(no tonality shift)
After 16ohms it starts changing.

120dB at 8ohms is very high though.
Well I talked to @Choy Wei De about MASM v3
Resonator and horn on RAB32033 and GQ driver as standard


For design analogy.

GQ is main driver
RAB shifts the tonality(you can use any RAB you want to, to make sound as you like)

Resonator update:
Please keep 1mm length for resonator as I didn't calculated the resonator for bass.

Increasing N on length increases subbass and kill mid bass, while shifting the stage more away from ear. For mids and treble its flawless but mid bass seem to get weaker and subbass seemed to increase

People who love subbass can follow the formula

People who love mid bass can put 1mm length and 2mm ID.

It has different reaction bass region. It act as energy pressure diffuser on mid bass tone, while subbass remain intact. As mid bass has highest pressure, it lowers the impact of bass slams and this makes rumble and low freq shine more


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Shilohsjustice said:


> So............ Been playing around again today with these external resistors. It's a lot of fun, I still am sold on the 68ohm resistor on the HODVTEC!!
> 
> I put together a 6 driver setup using a TWFK, SWFK, HODVTEC.


Sensei
Tell me the crossover
HODVTEC
TWFK
SWFK

That some crazy build sensei


----------



## wardy (Apr 28, 2019)

A while back I purchased a pair of 1964 A3's that I have been using since, however a few months ago I thought why are In Ears so expensive, they cant be that hard to make? So I stumbled across this thread and decided to make myself a pair...
So here is the first pair of Custom in ear monitors I have made from scratch... They are far from perfect looking, but they sound great and fit better than my 64 audio ones.
SPECS:
Single Driver: RAB-32257-000
MMCX terminals

Looking forward to making some more crazy ones
10,000 drivers next


----------



## eunice

Awesome! What resin is this? The Lisa Pavelka stuff ?


----------



## wardy

eunice said:


> Awesome! What resin is this? The Lisa Pavelka stuff ?



Indeed, wanted to try it with cheap stuff before investing in the real deal


----------



## Bassiklee

Very cool.  You will find the real deal behaves a little differently.  Inhibition layer,  and all that. I still use the magicglos as a doming resin on wooden face plates.  Other than that,  it yellows too much for my liking.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Apr 28, 2019)

wardy said:


> A while back I purchased a pair of 1964 A3's that I have been using since, however a few months ago I thought why are In Ears so expensive, they cant be that hard to make? So I stumbled across this thread and decided to make myself a pair...
> So here is the first pair of Custom in ear monitors I have made from scratch... They are far from perfect looking, but they sound great and fit better than my 64 audio ones.
> SPECS:
> Single Driver: RAB-32257-000
> ...





They look very good for first timer(I always fail at shells though)

By the way, amazing driver to start with

Actually this driver can reach bigger stage than GK with some tube hacks


----------



## Kulgrinda

dhruvmeena96 said:


>



Really? Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the below statement from Knowles datasheet say otherwise? I always thought signal cable's "-" should be connected to driver's "+".


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Apr 29, 2019)

Kulgrinda said:


> Really? Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the below statement from Knowles datasheet say otherwise? I always thought signal cable's "-" should be connected to driver's "+".


Check the polarity of my diagram
One is reverted for clear diagram building

GQ " positive" connected to RAB "positive", and same for negative is parallel

If I connect GQ "positive" with RAB "negative" will give me series if I remember elementary electronics. This may hamper impedance and phase.

And I have seen your wiring, I think its correct as RAB is parallel to GQ on single wire side instead of discrete parallel.

It is still the same. The way you connected negative of RAB to positive.

Well remember, if DCR is not 7.97 ohms, then its incorrect

All you are doing is running everything on reverse polarity.. I guess there are many who are more experienced than me on this topic.

But a positive of driver should go to positive of connector or wire


----------



## Kulgrinda

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Check the polarity of my diagram
> One is reverted for clear diagram building
> 
> GQ " positive" connected to RAB "positive", and same for negative is parallel
> ...



I have to check the total resistance and if I connected GQ and RAB parallel, I think I did. 

But question still remains the same. According to Knowles (and again I might be misunderstanding), you will be loosing SPL if you connect + signal to + of a the driver. There fore I though it was a better way to have + / - connection. Has anyone actually tested it?


----------



## eunice

Kulgrinda said:


> According to Knowles (and again I might be misunderstanding), you will be loosing SPL if you connect + signal to + of a the driver.



I highly doubt Knowles would claim something like that. In my opinion there is no difference if you flip polarity on both IEMs, as long as you use both of them at the same polarity. There is a debate on whether there is a difference, e.g. most Kickdrums start with a positive transient and some people claim there is a difference if the speaker pushes outward or inward on the start of a kickdrum. There is some merit to this argument as a positive pressure wave can behave differently (try sucking out a candle for example), and hence the kickdrum could in theory be faster. But I never heard any difference on any speaker or IEM.

Whether you agree with my personal opinion or not, there will definitively not be any difference in SPL though, especially not in a sealed environment like an IEM.


----------



## Cevisi

Hi guys got a question

What is a good cheap driver or set to lern whit?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Cevisi said:


> Hi guys got a question
> 
> What is a good cheap driver or set to lern whit?


Knowles RAF
Or 
Bellsing RAB(not the Knowles RAB)

The cheapest full range you can get


----------



## eunice

Cevisi said:


> What is a good cheap driver or set to lern whit?




Cheapest: Single Driver Knowles RAB-32257-000 (~20$ / pair)

Easy to build and very good sounding: Knowles GV (~90$ / pair)

Some soldering required but endgame quality sound: Bellsing 10013 + Zobel (~80$ per pair)


----------



## eunice

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Bellsing RAB


Did you try them, how do they compare to the Knowles? I have ordered a few because they are dead cheap, but have not received them yet.


----------



## Kulgrinda

eunice said:


> I highly doubt Knowles would claim something like that. In my opinion there is no difference if you flip polarity on both IEMs, as long as you use both of them at the same polarity. There is a debate on whether there is a difference, e.g. most Kickdrums start with a positive transient and some people claim there is a difference if the speaker pushes outward or inward on the start of a kickdrum. There is some merit to this argument as a positive pressure wave can behave differently (try sucking out a candle for example), and hence the kickdrum could in theory be faster. But I never heard any difference on any speaker or IEM.
> 
> Whether you agree with my personal opinion or not, there will definitively not be any difference in SPL though, especially not in a sealed environment like an IEM.



How would you interpret the screenshot I attached to my first post? It is from GQ driver data sheet, I noticed this sentence on other Knowles datasheets also. 

Your theory is correct, I also heard about bass attach momentum being off with wrong polarity. And you might be right that in a real world it would be difficult to notice, but I would argue that BA are more forgiving than a pair of speakers when it comes to polarity. I think they are very sensitive to all the different aspects on placement, connection, dampening etc. So I think correct polarity is a must. Just have to find out which one that is


----------



## dhruvmeena96

eunice said:


> Did you try them, how do they compare to the Knowles? I have ordered a few because they are dead cheap, but have not received them yet.


It ain't that good compared to Knowles RAB. I think 3kHz detail is slightly hazy and it rolloff more than Knowles RAB(slightly more)

But is a good alternative for huge cost saving. Or making some chi fi like KZ or TRN

Zobel works on it and improve the ringing and hazyness but I find it a little veiled and hazy


Well I am working on single driver DIY endgame so I used bellsing RAB for prototyping. Now I using Knowles as I have reached 80% completion.



eunice said:


> Cheapest: Single Driver Knowles RAB-32257-000 (~20$ / pair)
> 
> Easy to build and very good sounding: Knowles GV (~90$ / pair)
> 
> Some soldering required but endgame quality sound: Bellsing 10013 + Zobel (~80$ per pair)


Bellsing 10013 + zobel is actually endgame for 80$. Destroyed BGVP DM6 in competition. Man, just a little more subbass and lower midbass boost and it is actual endgame setup.

@Ivan TT can make a resonator for the two TWFK above. Or can tell us the way to make one.

And I know how to extract bass out of that DTEC on theory(paper). Working on it


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Kulgrinda said:


> How would you interpret the screenshot I attached to my first post? It is from GQ driver data sheet, I noticed this sentence on other Knowles datasheets also.
> 
> Your theory is correct, I also heard about bass attach momentum being off with wrong polarity. And you might be right that in a real world it would be difficult to notice, but I would argue that BA are more forgiving than a pair of speakers when it comes to polarity. I think they are very sensitive to all the different aspects on placement, connection, dampening etc. So I think correct polarity is a must. Just have to find out which one that is


BA are forgiving because they dont have to deal with the room they play in.

If you put speaker and BA in room less ideal condition, then speakers are more forgiving


----------



## Kulgrinda

eunice said:


> Cheapest: Single Driver Knowles RAB-32257-000 (~20$ / pair)
> 
> Easy to build and very good sounding: Knowles GV (~90$ / pair)
> 
> Some soldering required but endgame quality sound: Bellsing 10013 + Zobel (~80$ per pair)



Did you try 4xRAB? Should be good also.


----------



## eunice (Apr 29, 2019)

Kulgrinda said:


> How would you interpret the screenshot I attached to my first post?



There is several aspects that confuse me. What is a "positive going voltage" in the first place. Is it positive charge? Positive charge means "-" for electrons, since it's actually electrons (= negative charge) moving out of the "-" end of a power supply. 
If it's what we call the "+" end of a power supply (=where the electrons wants to enter) then there is still the question whether a headphone amp would convert a positive transient to a negative charge.
So basically I don't know and I hope I removed any remaining clarity...
I will buy an oscilloscope in the future and I will tell you exactly then.


----------



## eunice

Kulgrinda said:


> Did you try 4xRAB? Should be good also.



4xRAB sits on my bench, waiting for a CIEM shell to be ready.


----------



## Cevisi

Wow they are really cheap i think i had to scratch all the stuff up and look some good tutorials


----------



## Kulgrinda

eunice said:


> There is several aspects that confuse me. What is a "positive going voltage" in the first place. Is it positive charge? Positive charge means "-" for electrons, since it's actually electrons (= negative charge) moving out of the "-" end of a power supply.
> If it's what we call the "+" end of a power supply (=where the electrons wants to enter) then there is still the question whether a headphone amp would convert a positive transient to a negative charge.
> So basically I don't know and I hope I removed any remaining clarity...
> I will buy an oscilloscope in the future and I will tell you exactly then.


Waiting for measurements and final answer in the future


----------



## Cevisi

What is zobel ?


----------



## eunice

Cevisi said:


> What is zobel ?


Basically you connect a resistor and a capacitor in series and the result in parallel to the driver. It aims to flatten impedance of the driver. Simplified, you can view a driver as being a resistor and an inductor (the coil). Due to the inductance, impedance (=resulting resistance) goes up with frequency.   If you put the correct resistor and capacitor in parallel you balance that out.

If you check out the various recipes you will see the suggested values.


----------



## eunice

Guys, I bet soundlink is reading our thread:
https://de.aliexpress.com/item/2PCS...eiver-Custom-IEM-Hearing-Aid/32970539437.html


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Apr 29, 2019)

RAB32257 update(RAB32063 was discarded because I was not getting bass depth and oomph, thanks to @Choy Wei De )


Resonator(shifted near horn, for less tube effect)

1.2mm ID 2mm OD(6.5mm length from spout)
2.0mm ID 3mm OD(1.0mm length, Resonator, Buffer Mouth for horn)
1.2mm ID 2mm OD(2.5mm length)





Horn

2.0mm ID 3mm OD(2.5mm length) -> White Damper
3.0mm ID 4mm OD(3mm length)


Zobel circuit

Cz = 4.6uF
Rz = 41ohms


Series resistor

https://www.digikey.be/product-deta...up/Y116920R0000B0R/Y116920R0000B0R-ND/4226529

This resistor....20ohms




Flagship sound
End of RAB perfection

Review:
Its not a biased review, I did blind tested many of my friends (one make hearing protection and communication devices for army: military hearing aid). Many are KZ fanyboys and some were STAX head. Two doctors, one was Otolaryngologist

I made sure all were running at same volume(ear tested)

KZ guys were floored and they said that they cannot hear treble disjointed from mids and bass

STAX guys were like, its amazing for single BA driver. And there amazing has a different meaning. Electrostatics head when says good means I achieved something. Amazing is feat for me, and I am happy.

And everybody said that earphone ear fatigue was not happening, even though treble was slightly strong.

(For Indians, everything is an earphone(cringe)....which goes inside your ear and plays music)

No spec or detailed review.....this is as layman it can get.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

eunice said:


> Guys, I bet soundlink is reading our thread:
> https://de.aliexpress.com/item/2PCS...eiver-Custom-IEM-Hearing-Aid/32970539437.html


LOL
Zobel got famous
Hahahhahahahahaha


----------



## Cevisi

dhruvmeena96 said:


> RAB32257 update(RAB32063 was discarded because I was not getting bass depth and oomph, thanks to @Choy Wei De )
> 
> 
> Resonator(shifted near horn, for less tube effect)
> ...


With wich dollar class iem is it comparable


----------



## ThanosD

Guys, has anybody tried the resins used with the uv resin 3d printers, to construct a shell with the usual investment method? Like this anycubic one? 27€ for 0.5lt seems very cheap, but would it work?


----------



## eunice

It provably would work, but it would not be healthy. You need a resin that is certified for skin contact, it does not help if you get a rash or something and cannot wear IEMs for days. 

Dreve resin is ~30$ for 100ml, which is enough for ~8 pairs. That’s about 4$ per pair, so you would save money, but not by much. Also using other resin for training is not really helpful either as everything will be different. Different curing times, different behavior for sanding/buffing etc. 

Please do yourself a favor and start with a proper resin (Dreve, Egger, Pro3dure)

I tried the Lisa pavelka stuff and it was just a waste of time and money.


----------



## ThanosD

eunice said:


> It provably would work, but it would not be healthy. You need a resin that is certified for skin contact, it does not help if you get a rash or something and cannot wear IEMs for days.
> 
> Dreve resin is ~30$ for 100ml, which is enough for ~8 pairs. That’s about 4$ per pair, so you would save money, but not by much. Also using other resin for training is not really helpful either as everything will be different. Different curing times, different behavior for sanding/buffing etc.
> 
> ...



Yeah, I thought so too, about it being not medically certified. They offer a resin for dental use though, which should be safe. And it's 500ml for 75€, or 100ml for 15€, which is cheaper, but with skin and dental green being the only colors available.

Covering the non-medically certified resin with Dreve Fotoplast Lacquer3 (which is) could be another way to use the cheaper resin, right?

Anyways, when I finally find some spare time, I will get the Dreve fotoplast, as you suggested. I can get 100g for 38€. 

Also, does anybody have any experience with the Dreve Thermosoft soft light-curing acrylic? I was thinking about making a pair of earplugs, which I'd like to be made of something softer, but I don't know much about this material. Is it like hard silicone?


----------



## foxfoxfox

Hello, 
i am new to this forum and unexperienced, but built a first CIEM with Knowles GV with open vents. 
I used a approx. 23mm tubing with 3mm outer diameter, glued over both sound outputs, as well as Knowles brown damper 10mm away from sound output.

But bass response is too low, the IEM is mid-centric (female vocals very present).

Can you experienced guys give one or more hints to strengthen bass response? Maybe other dampening?

I would be very glad!
Thank you!


----------



## eunice (Apr 29, 2019)

ThanosD said:


> Covering the non-medically certified resin with Dreve Fotoplast Lacquer3 (which is) could be another way to use the cheaper resin, right?


I have heard people do that and it should be safe. But personally I am incapable of using Lack 3, I tried my very best time and time again but I never got good results. But the shiniest and most beautiful CIEMs in this thread are done with Lack3



foxfoxfox said:


> But bass response is too low, the IEM is mid-centric (female vocals very present).


Bass response is 99% fit. Sadly, sometimes it's not your fault but your impressions might be bad.

Try to add some resin just below the first bend at the outside of the bend to get a better seal, to see if that's the issue. The tissue is soft there and you will get a good seal, but you may get issues wearing them for longer periods of time. I was grinding and adding material all the time until I had a good seal, only to find out that they become uncomfortable after a few hours of wearing. I never had that problem with my second pair of impressions. 

Oh, and brown damper is maybe not enough. I prefer yellow on bass and red on TWFK with the GV. I do the dampers at the tip of the CIEM to replace them after I made the shell


----------



## Ivan TT

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Bellsing 10013 + zobel is actually endgame for 80$. Destroyed BGVP DM6 in competition. Man, just a little more subbass and lower midbass boost and it is actual endgame setup.


Hmmmmm, @eunice mentioned improving bass/sub-bass on BS6 too, but in my set up it's already there, actually to a painful level if I don't watch the volume.
It is easily comparable with any dynamic/hybrid IEMs I tried, or better.
So basshead in me is very very happy 


eunice said:


> Guys, I bet soundlink is reading our thread:
> https://de.aliexpress.com/item/2PCS...eiver-Custom-IEM-Hearing-Aid/32970539437.html


Of course and Grace AKA @guiping0922 is part of our close knit community, actually it scares me to even think how much more expensive (and less creative) our experiments would be if not for Soundlink.
We had a chat re: zobel on Ali the other day and actually can someone PLEASE draw a nice circuit diagram of Bellsing 10013 zobel and share it with Grace so they can out schematics on their Ali listing?


----------



## eunice

Ivan TT said:


> Hmmmmm, @eunice mentioned improving bass/sub-bass on BS6 too


No, it has more than enough bass and sub-bass. There is a small region in the lower mids which could be improved when compared to the Knowles GV. But with the Zobel the Bellsing 6 is just amazing. Even if driven by a phone or a bluetooth cable, it's just wonderful.

https://crcit.net/c/7439711c


----------



## Cevisi

Alot of the drivers you using just go till 12-13khz is that not to low ?


----------



## eunice

Cevisi said:


> Alot of the drivers you using just go till 12-13khz is that not to low ?


They go way higher, the problem is the measurement. The standard couplers (iec711) just are not rated for higher frequencies, and my measurement rig tends to not show high frequency too. I can hear up until ~15khz and I don’t miss anything. The highs are definitively not the weak point of BA drivers.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Apr 29, 2019)

eunice said:


> No, it has more than enough bass and sub-bass. There is a small region in the lower mids which could be improved when compared to the Knowles GV. But with the Zobel the Bellsing 6 is just amazing. Even if driven by a phone or a bluetooth cable, it's just wonderful.
> 
> https://crcit.net/c/7439711c


@eunice
@guiping0922 
Invert the zobel

Capacitor should remains at positive side


----------



## Bassiklee

Of course and Grace AKA @guiping0922 is part of our close knit community, actually it scares me to even think how much more expensive (and less creative) our experiments would be if not for Soundlink.
We had a chat re: zobel on Ali the other day and actually can someone PLEASE draw a nice circuit diagram of Bellsing 10013 zobel and share it with Grace so they can out schematics on their Ali listing?[/QUOTE]


Yes!!  Not only is Grace very helpful,  she's a real sweetheart.  My quad driver monitor is called the Grace 8,  for her.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Apr 29, 2019)

Bassiklee said:


> Of course and Grace AKA @guiping0922 is part of our close knit community, actually it scares me to even think how much more expensive (and less creative) our experiments would be if not for Soundlink.
> We had a chat re: zobel on Ali the other day and actually can someone PLEASE draw a nice circuit diagram of Bellsing 10013 zobel and share it with Grace so they can out schematics on their Ali listing?




Yes!!  Not only is Grace very helpful,  she's a real sweetheart.  My quad driver monitor is called the Grace 8,  for her.[/QUOTE]


LOL
Well I can support you on that. She is amazing.


RAB perfected- status finished
MASM vFinale- going on, will be finished in 2days(I guess)


----------



## Bassiklee

There she is,  ladies and gentlemen.


----------



## Firedrops

dhruvmeena96 said:


> RAB32257 update(RAB32063 was discarded because I was not getting bass depth and oomph, thanks to @Choy Wei De )
> 
> 
> Resonator(shifted near horn, for less tube effect)
> ...



Very interested to try this! Could you please explain (or upload a pic) of how all the tubes are connected? I'm a bit lost seeing so many tubes listed for 1 driver :s


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Apr 30, 2019)

Its by @Choy Wei De
pre prototype, different design, dont copy
go according to steps i mentioned above(which you tagged)
the 3mm is compensated by his shell nozzle


this is tube overlap method


----------



## dhruvmeena96

MASM update

Same for GQ

RAB 32033
same zobel
same tube

3mm length/ 3mm ID resonator


----------



## Kulgrinda (Apr 30, 2019)

eunice said:


> No, it has more than enough bass and sub-bass. There is a small region in the lower mids which could be improved when compared to the Knowles GV. But with the Zobel the Bellsing 6 is just amazing. Even if driven by a phone or a bluetooth cable, it's just wonderful.
> 
> https://crcit.net/c/7439711c



Do you think this way of connecting circuit would work as well? Disregard that +5V writing.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Apr 30, 2019)

Kulgrinda said:


> Do you think this way of connecting circuit would work as well? Disregard that +5V writing.


Bro invert the zobel

Put resistor to negative side and capacitor to positive side

Why do you @eunice  put capacitor to negative and resistor to positive

Putting resistor on positive drops impedance first and then capacitor act as a roll off


----------



## Kulgrinda

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Bro invert the zobel
> 
> Put resistor to negative side and capacitor to positive side
> 
> Why do you put capacitor to negative and resistor to positive


yes yes, I only read your comment regarding it later. 

My question is - is it ok to connect circuit at the connector side and not in the middle of wire? In a latter case one has to use two wires or melt middle of one litz wire that can be tricky.


----------



## eunice

I have wired mine with the cap on positive side, but does it really matter ? From my understanding it does not matter.

I will change the diagram though.


----------



## eunice

Kulgrinda said:


> My question is - is it ok to connect circuit at the connector side and not in the middle of wire?


Yes it is, the cable lengths in question add negligible resistance. The resistance of the cables is way lower than the precision of the resistor.


----------



## Xymordos

eunice said:


> I have wired mine with the cap on positive side, but does it really matter ? From my understanding it does not matter.
> 
> I will change the diagram though.



From my testing it made no visible measured difference - in fact the poles of the tantalum capacitor didn't matter either actually for some reason.


----------



## Xymordos

eunice said:


> Yes it is, the cable lengths in question add negligible resistance. The resistance of the cables is way lower than the precision of the resistor.




I think he meant if that circuit will still work. I think it'll work as long as that's your only driver you're connecting it to.


----------



## eunice

Yes it will work. @Ivan TT connected the zobel at the end of the wire on a breadboard.

Electrically there is almost no difference where you connect the zobel. One is the resistance of the wires, the longer wires add to the resistance of the zobel, which is negligible if the wires are just a few mm long. The other difference is the inductivity of the larger loop created. That is negligible too in our case since the inductivity is so low that it would only make a difference in the MHz range.


----------



## Kulgrinda

Thank you guys. And yes, this is only valid for one driver setup.


----------



## Ivan TT

Kulgrinda said:


> My question is - is it ok to connect circuit at the connector side and not in the middle of wire? In a latter case one has to use two wires or melt middle of one litz wire that can be tricky.


Does not REALLY matter as the difference will be absolutely negligible, I had SMD parts soldered directly onto mmcx connector (from spare negative lug to positive), but middle of litz wire is much easier and tidier IMO.
I solder 0805 SMD cap and resistor together, seal them with Bondic and solder to the middle of litz wires, covering solder joint with bondic just in case.
Works like a charm, unless I have to parallel a bunch of SMD resistors to get the value I'm after, sandwiching them together is a bit tricky but still not a problem.


Spoiler: maximum count of resistors I sandwitched stands at 4














Xymordos said:


> the poles of the tantalum capacitor didn't matter either


I believe in zobel circuit it's the reactance of capacitor that matters, effectively forcing amplifier to push more current across frequency ranges affected by driver's inductance (but I may be terribly wrong here).


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Kulgrinda said:


> yes yes, I only read your comment regarding it later.
> 
> My question is - is it ok to connect circuit at the connector side and not in the middle of wire? In a latter case one has to use two wires or melt middle of one litz wire that can be tricky.


Yes, you can do it for single driver or a setup of driver like bellsing 10013

You cannot do it in MASM or crossover circuits


----------



## Xymordos

Ivan TT said:


> Does not REALLY matter as the difference will be absolutely negligible, I had SMD parts soldered directly onto mmcx connector (from spare negative lug to positive), but middle of litz wire is much easier and tidier IMO.
> I solder 0805 SMD cap and resistor together, seal them with Bondic and solder to the middle of litz wires, covering solder joint with bondic just in case.
> Works like a charm, unless I have to parallel a bunch of SMD resistors to get the value I'm after, sandwiching them together is a bit tricky but still not a problem.
> 
> ...



I always sandwich my parallel resistors too to save space


----------



## eunice

The Zobel works simply by mimicking the inverse impedance of the driver. The driver is (simplified) a resistor and an inductor (the coil). The zobel is a resistor and a cap. 
While the impedance of the driver rises with frequency the impedance of the Zobel falls with frequency, ideally balancing out the impedance rise of the driver. 

Of course in reality the driver is more complex, as inductance changes depending on mechanical force required to move the armature, so you cannot perfectly Balance that out, at least not with a simple cap.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Apr 30, 2019)

eunice said:


> The Zobel works simply by mimicking the inverse impedance of the driver. The driver is (simplified) a resistor and an inductor (the coil). The zobel is a resistor and a cap.
> While the impedance of the driver rises with frequency the impedance of the Zobel falls with frequency, ideally balancing out the impedance rise of the driver.
> 
> Of course in reality the driver is more complex, as inductance changes depending on mechanical force required to move the armature, so you cannot perfectly Balance that out, at least not with a simple cap.


Wanna do LCR zobel..that is too above the level and inductor in SMD is hard to find.

I did discussed it earlier in pg 530 something

What is more important is to get flat phase to get timing and mechanical impedances to be perfect from driver. Electrical impedance to protect driver from voltage surges and make it work a little better than its existing spec.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Apr 30, 2019)

Ivan TT said:


> Does not REALLY matter as the difference will be absolutely negligible, I had SMD parts soldered directly onto mmcx connector (from spare negative lug to positive), but middle of litz wire is much easier and tidier IMO.
> I solder 0805 SMD cap and resistor together, seal them with Bondic and solder to the middle of litz wires, covering solder joint with bondic just in case.
> Works like a charm, unless I have to parallel a bunch of SMD resistors to get the value I'm after, sandwiching them together is a bit tricky but still not a problem.
> 
> ...


More current and less voltage.
V= IR
I= V/R
R = V/I

R is directly proportional to V and inversely to I
Reduction of R means reduction of V and increase of I


Capacitance is used for selecting frequency
Resistor act as a parallel resistor to selected frequency impedance.

When there is more peaky impedance, the voltages on peak is High.

Zobel reduce the peak and so voltages.

This leads to reduction of average resistance of driver, which makes amp push more power, getting wasted into heat by zobel and turning into a  balanced ampere voltage signal rather than peak burst here and there.
This also helps amplifier breath better current due to ideal resistance and reduces amp distortion due to unbalanced frequency power plus Johnson Nyquist noise is reduced. Well there are many noises which are reduced which happens due to high voltages.

Well flat phase happens because linear voltages can charge up at same time. Impedance peaks have higher voltage demand than other frequency points, making amplifier to push more power at that frequency , which may take time compared to other freq, creating a dip, due to lag. BA have more dip,because BA are even faster, making the phase shift even more noticeable.




Well @Ivan TT now your shell looks like it has purpose. Filled with goodness of drivers and hint of zobel sauce


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Apr 30, 2019)

Since signal are voltage source, reducing voltage while balancing the ampere helps in reduction of harshness as the harshness is reduced while volume is maintained overall.

This leads to peak being there at same dB but not sounding harsh. That's what is weird in experience

Its like tube filter without tube veil or tube harmonic distortion. It smoothens out without adding color.


A zobel BA driver outclasses dynamic driver in almost everything. Speed, transient, distortion figures(except that dynamics are more extended due to better ageing of technology). Plus BA react better than loudspeaker driver of today's. Since BA are new and due to high speed, they can get out of controlled.

Zobel is like governor of engine which stops it from over revving sometimes, while maintain ideal power to fuel ratio.


The basic physics of resistance shows us that the random thermal movement of charge carriers in a conductor always produces electrical noise of value 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 where k is Boltzmann's Constant (1.38065 x 10-23 J/K), T is the absolute temperature, B is the bandwidth and R the resistance. (We often express this noise in terms of spectral density, making the voltage noise 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


Since speaker is an imperfect resistor with random impedance peaks plus action of the speaker diaphragm and energy produced inside such low cavity, its a norm of getting Johnson noise. So its better to have lower resistance to begin with or ideal resistance on single driver

Such noise is known as thermal noise, or Johnson noise, after John B. Johnson (Bell Telephone Laboratories – 1928), who was the first person to observe it. It might more properly be named Johnson/Nyquist noise as it was Harry Nyquist (also at Bell Laboratories) who explained the physical basis of Johnson's observation.

This is what makes a driver different from other in basic sound presentation. If we remove the Johnson noise factor from speaker or get consistent and lowered noise, we get better stage

same thing happens when we drive music at low volumes, we can feel the stage is bigger after a certain very low volume, because we cant hear the Johnson and other noises well


----------



## Choy Wei De (Apr 30, 2019)

@Firedrops This is how i came out with my tubing.

Base on the numbers, this is what i came out.


What went wrong is that I uses too many tubes. And due to human errors, the whole setup end up longer than what I planned about 2-3mm. And since there are so many parts, its hard for me to glue everything together without risking it falling apart during assembling and troubleshooting.

So I thought "What if i use a longer 2mm ID tube and overlap/wrap/cover/protect the whole setup?" (Give the hard work to the most lazy human on earth to do, and he will make it simplest for you.)
And this is the new tubing.



After all the calculation, I started making them.
And this is how it look like after its finished, I did not include the damper so that everyone can see clearly. You can see my 2.0mm ID is longer than usual, because WHY NOT? The longer 2mm ID is to help with friction so that they don't fall apart. This whole thing can hold themselves together without any glue, very good for prototyping.





As @dhruvmeena96 mentioned, my 3.00mm ID tube is actually my earphone nozzle.
These it how it look like after putting together.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Apr 30, 2019)

Choy Wei De said:


> @Firedrops This is how i came out with my tubing.
> 
> Base on the numbers, this is what i came out.
> 
> ...


Yup, this is the whole tubing setup
@Choy Wei De amazing work bro... This looks way more stunning than old horns

The damper goes on the last part of horn

Well, I said once I will learn tubing
@Slater

This the single driver RAB.

The RAB perfection with 50% work done(and the hardest part, the mechanical tuning of tubes).

The other 50% is zobel and a series resistor which @Choy Wei De and me are finding a sweetspot for.

Right now rs1 is 20ohms

But we are finding where it doesnt loose volume but becomes less fatiguing

brass end of the nozzle can also structure the sound presented

Acrylic, Carbon fiber and High Density plastic will come glass note treble and mid presentation

Wood, Dimpled(rough dotted surface) plastic will come in sweet sounding and textured mids. warmth focused

Metals have shiny, shimmery presentation. And brass is good for low end texturing


----------



## zekester

Just finished a set with the bellsing 6 driver setup. Sounds great, looks pretty cool.


----------



## eunice

Congrats! Did you try the zobel?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

zekester said:


> Just finished a set with the bellsing 6 driver setup. Sounds great, looks pretty cool.


Carbon fiber faceplate.....nice looking set


----------



## zekester

eunice said:


> Congrats! Did you try the zobel?



Yep, I didn’t get a good pic of the insides. I figured if I was going to use the bellsing 6, I might as well do it right!


----------



## dhruvmeena96

zekester said:


> Yep, I didn’t get a good pic of the insides. I figured if I was going to use the bellsing 6, I might as well do it right!


Did you do zobel right.....
Not in reverse polarity...

How is the soundstage if you can compare with some other set you have..


Well for me, its bigger than Andromeda on certain tracks


----------



## Cevisi

Wow


zekester said:


> Just finished a set with the bellsing 6 driver setup. Sounds great, looks pretty cool.


Wow


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Apr 30, 2019)

Cevisi said:


> Wow
> 
> Wow


By the way, if you like TinAudio T2, you can do RAB perfected with RAB32063

They have same 3kHz peak, just that T2 extends higher, but RAB perfected has more stage and more speed with same signature like T2.

And Bellsing 6 + zobel obliterate the DM6 for less price

IE80 drivers with tuning destroys sennhieser momentum


Choose your poison.....

DIY has evolved too much here


----------



## eunice

dhruvmeena96 said:


> @eunice
> @guiping0922
> Invert the zobel
> 
> Capacitor should remains at positive side


I am not sure  it matters, but here the polarity is as you requested:
https://crcit.net/c/c03b5701


----------



## dhruvmeena96

eunice said:


> I am not sure  it matters, but here the polarity is as you requested:
> https://crcit.net/c/c03b5701


It matters

Tried and tested....

Hahaha


----------



## Bassiklee

I'm not sure that it matters.  Audio is an AC signal.  It might measure as though flipping the order of the components makes a difference,  using DC.  We aren't driving the circuit with DC though


----------



## zekester

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Did you do zobel right.....
> Not in reverse polarity...
> 
> How is the soundstage if you can compare with some other set you have..
> ...



Based on my understanding from working on recording gear, if the capacitor is non-polarized it doesn't matter how it is wired, but the standard practice is resistor on the positive leg. I used non-polarized caps, so I followed that pattern. You can look at the implementation on Neve and API preamps, pretty much the pinnacle in design for audio recording. When I was reading up on zobel networks for use with headphones and speakers, I saw schematics showing both approaches.


----------



## Cevisi (Apr 30, 2019)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> By the way, if you like TinAudio T2, you can do RAB perfected with RAB32063
> 
> They have same 3kHz peak, just that T2 extends higher, but RAB perfected has more stage and more speed with same signature like T2.
> 
> ...


Yea i will do diy for fun i am electican thats my thing i am just a bit worried about doing the shell

First i want to do a rab and then maybe a bellsing or that 4 way knowles wich on of that is better its just 5 euro difference


----------



## Kiina (Apr 30, 2019)

Anyone knows how long I can store an agar agar negative? Like making a shell today and then using it again in a few days without heating it again? Or does it change the form with time? Also how do impressions age? Do they generally keep their form? There seems to be some conflicting information.

/Edit: plus has anyone ever mixed Pro3dure and Fotoplast? This might sound like a stupid idea, but I'm really interested if it would give a usable shell


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Apr 30, 2019)

zekester said:


> Based on my understanding from working on recording gear, if the capacitor is non-polarized it doesn't matter how it is wired, but the standard practice is resistor on the positive leg. I used non-polarized caps, so I followed that pattern. You can look at the implementation on Neve and API preamps, pretty much the pinnacle in design for audio recording. When I was reading up on zobel networks for use with headphones and speakers, I saw schematics showing both approaches.


The resistor in positive leg zobel is used in amplifier for a different purpose.

I nearly lost 7dB of signal when I did resistor on positive leg, for the reduced impedance..

Well, that may be happening due to some other issues, but in theory it seems to be better practice as 

In speaker equivalent diagram, first you load the air, and then air shows resistivity.

So its better to parallel a cap first(which seem to parallel with mechanical property in electrical circuit of air loading) and then use resistor(to parallel air resistance defined in electrical circuit)


But its okay, to do positive and negative, if you are not facing dB losses.

Well I have one more circuit, using LR. It was used by TDK in TDK BA200 and it works like a charm

It works for Dual SWFK parallel or ED29689 as treble driver. Very low impedance
Anybody needs schematics


----------



## Bassiklee

Yes,  post what you've got.


----------



## eunice

Cevisi said:


> First i want to do a rab and then maybe a bellsing or that 4 way knowles wich on of that is better its just 5 euro difference



the Knowles GV without Zobel is better than the Bellsing 6 without Zobel. But the Bellsing 6 with Zobel is better than the Knowles GV without Zobel. So until someone finds a good Zobel for the Knowles GV you should go with Bellsing 6 + Zobel.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Dont go with the numbering(like 66 etc) those are reference number in research paper.

See the formula below
RW = resistance DCR of woofer
Rt = resistance DCR of tweeter


Resistor is on positive leg
Inductor on negative leg

Try to keep capacitance of crossover, RW and Rt as small as you can

So that you can find the inductive value.


I took the zobelled RAB and was trying to use an ED29689 as tweeter with 470nF capacitor

Which give RW = 22 ohms
Rt = 3.65 ohms
C = 0.47uF


----------



## dhruvmeena96

And the best single full range driver I have used so far is 
Bellsing 504410-1409

It doesnt have any Knowles or sonion counterpart. Purely orignal, superspecies driver


Confidential LOL!!!

Dont leak
Hahahahaha

But the driver is amazing


----------



## dhruvmeena96

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Dont go with the numbering(like 66 etc) those are reference number in research paper.
> 
> See the formula below
> RW = resistance DCR of woofer
> ...


Well this can be used on bellsing 6 to lower bass and mids to treble nearby level if we are able to find something while doing hit and trial.

I will try doing it.

I have to make DTEC impedance be equal to TWFK in bellsing6

So I get overall 8ohm impedance flat.

Then I am thinking of adding series resistor of 20ohms.

That will make sense


----------



## Caluub (Apr 30, 2019)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> RAB32257 update(RAB32063 was discarded because I was not getting bass depth and oomph, thanks to @Choy Wei De )
> 
> 
> Resonator(shifted near horn, for less tube effect)
> ...



Does anyone know a supplier for the 1.2mm/2mm and 2mm/3mm tubings used here?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Caluub said:


> Does anyone know a supplier for the 1.2mm/2mm and 2mm/3mm tubings used here?


https://www.amazon.com/SMC-Polyurethane-Metric-Tubing/dp/B004N84MTA

1.2mm ID/ 2mm OD

Other are common


----------



## Caluub

dhruvmeena96 said:


> https://www.amazon.com/SMC-Polyurethane-Metric-Tubing/dp/B004N84MTA
> 
> 1.2mm ID/ 2mm OD
> 
> Other are common


Thank you. It seems like I will have to buy an enormous length of tubing to get the 1.2mm ID. Do you think it would be okay to just use 1mm ID/2mm OD instead?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

It would be hassle to fit on the spout of BA
Your choice

It would require some pressure

Plus tuning would be a little bassy too


Caluub said:


> Thank you. It seems like I will have to buy an enormous length of tubing to get the 1.2mm ID. Do you think it would be okay to just use 1mm ID/2mm OD instead?


----------



## Ivan TT

Caluub said:


> Does anyone know a supplier for the 1.2mm/2mm and 2mm/3mm tubings used here?


Soundlink: PVC Tubing Tube for IEM BTE Hearing Aid Earmold Earmould DIY In-ear Monitor Driver Damper 1.0 mm ID, 1.5mm ID, 2.0mm ID,  
https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/roM9NvI


----------



## ThanosD (May 1, 2019)

I finally found some time, and assembled a pair of RAF-32873, with green dampers, using a pair of Etymotics style shell, which was so generously sent to me by @Ivan TT .

The technique of making a loop with the soldered wires and a bit of heat shrink worked like a charm 



 I have to say, they sound good. The bass doesn't sound as deep as Tin T2's, and I think it has more mid bass, but generally they sound good, especially for how much they actually cost. And the treble, might have a little less detail, but is very pleasant, and not piercing.

    

I have a question, is it possible to make a zobel circuit outside of the shell, at some part of the cable for example? I'd like to try it. The RAF-32873 has the same specifications with RAB-32257, at least according to soundlink.


----------



## eunice

dhruvmeena96 said:


> https://www.amazon.com/SMC-Polyurethane-Metric-Tubing/dp/B004N84MTA
> 
> 1.2mm ID/ 2mm OD
> 
> Other are common


World this one work too ? It’s silicone : https://www.amazon.de/dp/B07FBDTPX2/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_-0uYCbAWK6227


----------



## eunice

ThanosD said:


> I have a question, is it possible to make a zobel circuit outside of the shell, at some part of the cable for example?



Yes, look for @Ivan TT Zobel test rig on a breadboard a few pages back.


----------



## Ivan TT

ThanosD said:


> I have a question, is it possible to make a zobel circuit outside of the shell, at some part of the cable for example? I'd like to try it. The RAF-32873 has the same specifications with RAB-32257, at least according to soundlink.





eunice said:


> Yes, look for @Ivan TT Zobel test rig on a breadboard a few pages back.


Provided you get SMD components it should be reasonably easy to mount them inside of a 3.5mm jack or socket housing, essentially creating short extension cable, similar to 2.5mm to 3.5mm adapters 



Spoiler: Like this one:



https://www.aliexpress.com/item/FII...-2-5mm-balanced-output-cable/32890820615.html
Socket:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1pc...mm-3-pole-Stereo-Socket-Gold/32914555254.html
Jack:
https://www.aliexpress.com/store/pr...adphone-repairing-DIY/502420_32899702637.html


----------



## Choy Wei De

Caluub said:


> Does anyone know a supplier for the 1.2mm/2mm and 2mm/3mm tubings used here?



I used this
https://m.tb.cn/h.ecaRO0J?sm=5cbae5
I have used 1.0mm ID tube before. I didn’t use any glue for prototyping. 1.00mm ID always detached itself inside the shell. I changed to 1.2mm ID and it stay intact very well.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

ThanosD said:


> I finally found some time, and assembled a pair of RAF-32873, with green dampers, using a pair of Etymotics style shell, which was so generously sent to me by @Ivan TT .
> 
> The technique of making a loop with the soldered wires and a bit of heat shrink worked like a charm
> 
> ...


You can make it inside the shell itself too.

Or can make inside the connector


----------



## eunice (May 1, 2019)

Kulgrinda said:


> Waiting for measurements and final answer in the future



1) Setup

Out: AudioQuest Dragonfly Black (USB DAC/AMP with 3.5mm out)
Driver: Knowles CI-22955
IN: MiniDSP UMIK-1 (Measurement microphone with USB)

2) Wiring

Ring of 3.5mm (R in the picture) to Terminal 2 POSITIVE on the CI.
Sleeve of 3.5mm (GND in the picture) to Terminal 1 NEGATIVE on the CI





3) I played a simple Kickdrum and recorded it back:



Since the attack phase is a little delayed, I matched the wave forms so the end is the same.

That way the polarity of recorded wave form looks identical to polarity of output waveform.

If these 3 assumptions are correct:

1) Swing up in .WAV file is converted to swing up in voltage on the 3.5mm output by the Dragonfly
2) Swing up in air pressure is converted to swing up in recorded WAV by the UMIK-1
3) Wiring of Dragonfly is correct

Then you should connect the + (center of mmcx) to the + of the driver and not the other way around.

But to be honest, I am not sure.
Audacity Project.zip


----------



## eunice

Clarity shootout:



Spoiler: Clarity Graph 4x RAB vs Bellsing 6 vs Bellsing 6 + Zobel vs Knowles GV


----------



## Cevisi

eunice said:


> Clarity shootout:
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Clarity Graph 4x RAB vs Bellsing 6 vs Bellsing 6 + Zobel vs Knowles GV


Whats better now


----------



## dhruvmeena96

eunice said:


> Clarity shootout:
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Clarity Graph 4x RAB vs Bellsing 6 vs Bellsing 6 + Zobel vs Knowles GV


Well my doubt was sort of right.

Clarity increase is mostly shown at those area where impedance is damped to linear. Amount of impedance damped equates to amount of clarity improved

RAB shows way higher quality in 3kHz and treble because 3kHz was 200ohms and 20kHz was 384ohms


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (May 1, 2019)

Cevisi said:


> Whats better now


Bellsing 6 + zobel is really crazy spec. GV is not even near, according to his graph.

RAB series is outperforming everything in treble clarity. Zobel will even raise it further. So it might be the best mid and treble .

GV needs zobel as I have seen impedance graph and it has two big peaks, which if damped properly by zobel, will raise treble clarity above bellsing.. Cannot say about bass


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (May 2, 2019)

eunice said:


> Clarity shootout:
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Clarity Graph 4x RAB vs Bellsing 6 vs Bellsing 6 + Zobel vs Knowles GV


Was the RAB zobelled or not

@eunice 

Is this RAB32063


----------



## eunice

Yes, it was Zobeled.


----------



## eunice

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Was the RAB zobelled or not
> 
> @eunice
> 
> Is this RAB32063


Oh man. The 4x series is actually RAF32873 with zobel. I am very sorry for working this sloppy. The 4x RAB is not yet finished.


----------



## eunice (May 2, 2019)

Regarding the discussion about the polarity of caps.

In electrolytic there is a small oxide layer between the plates preventing the plates from shorting out. If you apply a voltage in reverse the oxide layer dissolves slowly until the cap shorts out. If you apply a voltage in the correct direction the oxide layer will be replenished. Due to that fact, they will probably last quite some time in an AC circuit, but I would not recommend doing it.

In tantalum caps it is a different mechanism, it turns into a crystal which is much more conductive. Tantalum caps are safe to be used with a reverse voltage up to about 10-15% of their forward voltage rating.

Just because it’s cool, let me quote NASA as a source about tantalum caps:



> I. Bishop and J. Gill from AVX Corp. [3] believe that the reverse-bias failures are due to high density currents flowing through very small areas of microcracks or other defects in the dielectric layer. This results in creation of hot spots in the amorphous tantalum pentoxide and causes its conversion into the more conductive crystalline form. The crystallization can eventually cause a short circuit failure of the capacitor.




https://nepp.nasa.gov/DocUploads/E1231E3B-4D58-4788-B5F2E13DAE968AA0/Reverse_Bias_Behavior.pdf

Does anyone know what the maximum peak to peak voltage of a headphone amp is, when in use with a CIEM?

I have seen values of around 3.3Vpp on the internet, that means -1.15V to +1.15V. So if you use a 10V rated tantalum cap you do not need to worry about polarity.


----------



## Kulgrinda

eunice said:


> 1) Setup
> 
> Out: AudioQuest Dragonfly Black (USB DAC/AMP with 3.5mm out)
> Driver: Knowles CI-22955
> ...



Interesting measurements, thanks! For the argument's sake - have you tried the same test with reversed polarity on CI?


----------



## Kulgrinda

eunice said:


> Clarity shootout:
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Clarity Graph 4x RAB vs Bellsing 6 vs Bellsing 6 + Zobel vs Knowles GV



So out of 4 setups 4xRAF would be brightest sounding, correct? People were saying Bellsing 6 was already too hot in some areas, so 4xRAF might be unlistenable at all... Clarity is good, but sibilance and harshness is a show stopper


----------



## Ivan TT

Kulgrinda said:


> So out of 4 setups 4xRAF would be brightest sounding, correct? People were saying Bellsing 6 was already too hot in some areas, so 4xRAF might be unlistenable at all... Clarity is good, but sibilance and harshness is a show stopper


Not really, RAB/RAF don’t extend as far as BS6 does, even with horn and zobel.
Well, at least using same filters (ie green).
Actually, they are quite balanced, even U-shaped in x4 configuration, so don’t worry about it.


----------



## Kulgrinda

Ivan TT said:


> Not really, RAB/RAF don’t extend as far as BS6 does, even with horn and zobel.
> Well, at least using same filters (ie green).
> Actually, they are quite balanced, even U-shaped in x4 configuration, so don’t worry about it.


Thanks! My next build will be 2RAB+2RAF series/parallel with Zobel.


----------



## Ivan TT

Coincidentally that’s what I’m contemplating too, blending RAB and RAF together, but in 1+1 configuration (x4 for some reason does not extend as far on either side of the spectrum).


----------



## dhruvmeena96

eunice said:


> Regarding the discussion about the polarity of caps.
> 
> In electrolytic there is a small oxide layer between the plates preventing the plates from shorting out. If you apply a voltage in reverse the oxide layer dissolves slowly until the cap shorts out. If you apply a voltage in the correct direction the oxide layer will be replenished. Due to that fact, they will probably last quite some time in an AC circuit, but I would not recommend doing it.
> 
> ...


Read 4.2 of the pdf you tagged in
Degredation

the behavior of reverse biased capacitors during the third stage of degradation is an
initiation of failures by the bias interruption. In several instances hard failures of the capacitors occurred in time
ranging from a few minutes to a few hours after the voltage was turned off and then reapplied. This effect can be
explained assuming that after the reverse bias is turned off the oxygen vacancies, VO
+, diffuse from the Ta/Ta2O5
interface into the oxide and then, after the bias is reapplied, redistribute back to the interface. Originally, oxygen
vacancies were generated more or less evenly along the Ta/Ta2O5 interface, however after voltage reapplication they
would mostly concentrate at sites with structural irregularities where the electrical field is larger. Similar
redistribution would result in higher than original concentration of the positively charged vacancies at the
irregularities thus increasing the electron emission to the level when destruction of the oxide and a hard failure of the
capacitor would occur.


Haven't you heard the Tantalum catching fire. thats why nobium oxide is there




Kulgrinda said:


> So out of 4 setups 4xRAF would be brightest sounding, correct? People were saying Bellsing 6 was already too hot in some areas, so 4xRAF might be unlistenable at all... Clarity is good, but sibilance and harshness is a show stopper


Clarity is not about being bright but more about impulse of signal more or less clear.

i was working with 2xRAB

Parallel RAB32257 + 11ohm resistor + new zobel with 3.9mH inductance and 22ohms DCR as new standard for measuring and calculating
Flattest impedance, Flattest phase and way better than series parallel


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Ivan TT said:


> Coincidentally that’s what I’m contemplating too, blending RAB and RAF together, but in 1+1 configuration (x4 for some reason does not extend as far on either side of the spectrum).


You can do it
Just make sure which RAB you are using


----------



## Bassiklee

All this talk of the polarity of caps is kind of pointless.  We're discussing audio signals here.  By definition,  they are AC.  That means that no matter which way you orient the cap,  signal is flowing "backwards" through it half the time.  Please correct me if I'm wrong,  with proof.  I do like learning new things.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Bassiklee said:


> All this talk of the polarity of caps is kind of pointless.  We're discussing audio signals here.  By definition,  they are AC.  That means that no matter which way you orient the cap,  signal is flowing "backwards" through it half the time.  Please correct me if I'm wrong,  with proof.  I do like learning new things.


Its not about signal but burning capacitor up

Tantalum's work, but burns up(it won't on small signal like iem, but degradation happens)


----------



## eunice

Bassiklee said:


> All this talk of the polarity of caps is kind of pointless.  We're discussing audio signals here.  By definition,  they are AC.  That means that no matter which way you orient the cap,  signal is flowing "backwards" through it half the time.  Please correct me if I'm wrong,  with proof.  I do like learning new things.



Signal is flowing backwards half the time, but the question is how does a polarized capacitor behave if signal is flowing backwards? Some of us are not hearing any difference at all, while I convinced myself that I did hear slight distortion with polarized caps. I also read that a cap becomes a short for voltage flowing backwards.

That's why I did investigate. 

Turns out: A polarized cap is a capacitor regardless of the direction of current, but it basically breaks if the current flows the wrong way for too long. I think you can use polarized tantalum caps rated 12V or up for CIEMs without problems, according to the NASA paper that should be ok. You probably cannot use electrolytics because they will fail over time. 

But of course you can always use two polarized caps in series with reversed polarity or unpolarized caps to avoid any of these risks.


----------



## Bassiklee

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Its not about signal but burning capacitor up
> 
> Tantalum's work, but burns up(it won't on small signal like iem, but degradation happens)



I think you missed my point.  We're not talking about DC.  There really is no polarity to an audio signal.


----------



## Firedrops

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Parallel RAB32257 + 11ohm resistor + new zobel with 3.9mH inductance and 22ohms DCR as new standard for measuring and calculating
> Flattest impedance, Flattest phase and way better than series parallel



Does this mean you've finalised the zobel for 1 RAB? 

Also, has anyone ever heard of/tested 1audio drivers? I just randomly stumbled upon their TB shop, they seem to be imitating Knowles' numbers, but also with some really weird stuff like these dual RAB32257 drivers with 1 combined spout. Not really sure if they're "real" 32257s, just guessing from the name. Seems like a timely listing for everyone testing multi-RAB setups


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (May 3, 2019)

Firedrops said:


> Does this mean you've finalised the zobel for 1 RAB?
> 
> Also, has anyone ever heard of/tested 1audio drivers? I just randomly stumbled upon their TB shop, they seem to be imitating Knowles' numbers, but also with some really weird stuff like these dual RAB32257 drivers with 1 combined spout. Not really sure if they're "real" 32257s, just guessing from the name. Seems like a timely listing for everyone testing multi-RAB setups


I have warbler prelude, jomo Hakka, FIBAE 1, FIBAE 3, Fiio FA1

Friend has FIBAE black.

Single driver needs a lot more tuning but they sound extremely fabulous. They sound more coherent and more stitched in together compared to multi driver.


Yes RAB single driver is perfected for now....just some small tube tuning going on for getting perfect head structure heatmap(tuning soundstage and energy) and acoustic pressure distribution for fatigue free listening and bigger headscape experience.

For dual driver, I have very flat impedance and phase, but it sounds standard.. It doesnt have horn and resonator (muffler) stuff

For now





Well, I think we have talked about advantages about flat phase and linear impedances....but I think, sensei(@piotrus-g ) should throw some light on the advantages of flatter impedances and linear electrical phase. Because he pioneered it


Sensei means teacher by the way(in Japanese)


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Bassiklee said:


> I think you missed my point.  We're not talking about DC.  There really is no polarity to an audio signal.



I Agree completely , except polarised electrolyte.
They dont work, if you dont set them properly according to polarity. If you can spread some light on it.



Try it, and you will get it.


----------



## Firedrops

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Yes RAB single driver is perfected for now....just some small tube tuning going on for getting perfect head structure heatmap(tuning soundstage and energy) and acoustic pressure distribution for fatigue free listening and bigger headscape experience.



Thanks! Keen to start building it. Just to confirm, according to your last posted spec, the zobel is 
Cz = 4.6uF
Rz = 41ohms,
with a series resistor 20ohms?


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (May 3, 2019)

Firedrops said:


> Thanks! Keen to start building it. Just to confirm, according to your last posted spec, the zobel is
> Cz = 4.6uF
> Rz = 41ohms,
> with a series resistor 20ohms?


Zobel is 4.6uF and 41ohms

Series resistor value range from 10ohms to 33ohms
It all depends on taste

And the zobel you mentioned will only work with
RAB32033
RAB32257
RAF driver

The real game will begin with tuning the tubing and dampers like @Choy Wei De


----------



## Xymordos

Firedrops said:


> Does this mean you've finalised the zobel for 1 RAB?
> 
> Also, has anyone ever heard of/tested 1audio drivers? I just randomly stumbled upon their TB shop, they seem to be imitating Knowles' numbers, but also with some really weird stuff like these dual RAB32257 drivers with 1 combined spout. Not really sure if they're "real" 32257s, just guessing from the name. Seems like a timely listing for everyone testing multi-RAB setups



I bought a bunch of these from them:
https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1z0d.6639537.1997196601.451.340174844g84BV&id=581311508669

...and some "SWFK" drivers, but never got around to using them.  Dunno how they sound unfortunately.


----------



## zekester

I am curious how people are terminating the tubes in their shells. I think that is the sloppiest part of my build right now. I have experimented with a single bore and backfilling around the pvc tubes as well as boring each tube individually. I haven't figured out how to get the tube ends to look recessed or super finished. Anybody have any pointers?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Xymordos said:


> I bought a bunch of these from them:
> https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1z0d.6639537.1997196601.451.340174844g84BV&id=581311508669
> 
> ...and some "SWFK" drivers, but never got around to using them.  Dunno how they sound unfortunately.


Man, I am seeing those driver for the first time


----------



## Xymordos

zekester said:


> I am curious how people are terminating the tubes in their shells. I think that is the sloppiest part of my build right now. I have experimented with a single bore and backfilling around the pvc tubes as well as boring each tube individually. I haven't figured out how to get the tube ends to look recessed or super finished. Anybody have any pointers?



Not the best way to do it, but if they stick out a little, I use the middle part of the soldering iron and really quickly smooth it over.


----------



## Xymordos

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Man, I am seeing those driver for the first time



It's their original dual drivers. The seller told me they're for mids or mid-highs, but when I told him the graph looked like it'll be good for bass, he said it should be pretty good for bass too...

As I've never tested them I won't know until later


----------



## eunice

zekester said:


> I am curious how people are terminating the tubes in their shells. I think that is the sloppiest part of my build right now. I have experimented with a single bore and backfilling around the pvc tubes as well as boring each tube individually. I haven't figured out how to get the tube ends to look recessed or super finished. Anybody have any pointers?


What I do is I stick the metal tips of syringes into the tubes (they happen to fit perfectly into 2mm ID) and then apply some more resin. 

After that I carefully rotate the metal tips out and carefully sand and polish (very careful)


----------



## Bassiklee

Pictures?


----------



## eunice

Bassiklee said:


> Pictures?


I will post some when I build the next pair. But it will take some time, maybe a week or two.


----------



## Xymordos

Made some progress on the 4xRAB build. Used an SWFK as highs, and a BK21610 as subs. My god the RABs sound great. It is a buttery smooth mids, sounds similar to my planar driver. I used a 15mm x 2mm diameter PVC tube with a white damper on the RAB. Mids are perfect. 

Need some work on the bass though. Without a bass driver it's pretty thin. With a bass driver it can get a bit muddy. I used a regular 15mm length tube with a 2nd order low pass this time without the usual 50mm long tube I usually use. Maybe I should try a longer tube...



Spoiler: Picture












Spoiler: Frequency & Impedance


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (May 5, 2019)

Xymordos said:


> Made some progress on the 4xRAB build. Used an SWFK as highs, and a BK21610 as subs. My god the RABs sound great. It is a buttery smooth mids, sounds similar to my planar driver. I used a 15mm x 2mm diameter PVC tube with a white damper on the RAB. Mids are perfect.
> 
> Need some work on the bass though. Without a bass driver it's pretty thin. With a bass driver it can get a bit muddy. I used a regular 15mm length tube with a 2nd order low pass this time without the usual 50mm long tube I usually use. Maybe I should try a longer tube...
> 
> ...


Nice build...actually FR looks amazing
But why is there a 5kHz dip?
And how you shifted the 3kHz peak to 2.5kHz with so less kurtosis or so much balanced approach.

The impedance and electrical phase looks flagship like. If I have the circuit design, i can make the 20ohm DCR settle down to 13ohms, so you can achieve max electrical impedance and phase flatness.. It may resolve the muddy ness

Or use a HODVTEC with zobel built in and crossed properly with vent sealed


Side note:
I was thinking something like Freqphase....

And yahh, I think it is a flagship tuning


----------



## Cevisi

Xymordos said:


> Made some progress on the 4xRAB build. Used an SWFK as highs, and a BK21610 as subs. My god the RABs sound great. It is a buttery smooth mids, sounds similar to my planar driver. I used a 15mm x 2mm diameter PVC tube with a white damper on the RAB. Mids are perfect.
> 
> Need some work on the bass though. Without a bass driver it's pretty thin. With a bass driver it can get a bit muddy. I used a regular 15mm length tube with a 2nd order low pass this time without the usual 50mm long tube I usually use. Maybe I should try a longer tube...
> 
> ...


What is this for a shell is it selfmade ?


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (May 5, 2019)

Xymordos said:


> Made some progress on the 4xRAB build. Used an SWFK as highs, and a BK21610 as subs. My god the RABs sound great. It is a buttery smooth mids, sounds similar to my planar driver. I used a 15mm x 2mm diameter PVC tube with a white damper on the RAB. Mids are perfect.
> 
> Need some work on the bass though. Without a bass driver it's pretty thin. With a bass driver it can get a bit muddy. I used a regular 15mm length tube with a 2nd order low pass this time without the usual 50mm long tube I usually use. Maybe I should try a longer tube...
> 
> ...






dhruvmeena96 said:


> Nice build...actually FR looks amazing
> But why is there a 5kHz dip?
> And how you shifted the 3kHz peak to 2.5kHz with so less kurtosis or so much balanced approach.
> 
> ...


Formula for phase adjusted tubing(its not freqphase)

1 : 1.2 : 2

Where 1 is Bass driver
Where 1.2 is mid driver
Where 2 is tweeter.

The con of this design is that tweeter will loose its sparkle as it has to go in a tube which is twice longer than bass tube to match its physical time


If we go as per the above convention, then

10mm tube to BK21610
12mm tube to RAB
20mm tube to SWFK

Making too long of a tube can make C80 and D50 clarity take a hit, due to internal tube added reverb with delay which can be more than 50ms, because bass is slower and delay comes out apparent. Until or unless, you dont want to make a physical crossover, the idea for long tubing can be detrimental some time. Treble are better in this area as they are very fast. Mids are worst in long tube reverb as we are the most sensitive to mid region. A note for 50mm tubing



Another suggestion that I can give is to get rid of BK and change RAB32063 to RAB32257, but then it will take away the effortlessness of the RAB set. It will be still better than BK if bass is your concern, but mids won't be that amazing(it would be still better than other drivers, but not to the level of RAB32063)

But still, that FR looks very crazy level

note:
The 5kHz dip and 8kHz roll off looks off.


----------



## Xymordos

Cevisi said:


> What is this for a shell is it selfmade ?



Bought some universal shells of Taobao


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Xymordos said:


> Bought some universal shells of Taobao


Link please


----------



## Xymordos (May 5, 2019)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Formula for phase adjusted tubing(its not freqphase)
> 
> 1 : 1.2 : 2
> 
> ...



The 5kHz dip is there in the original 4x RAB setup actually. The SWFK just didn't help when filling in as a super tweeter.

How did you get your freqphase calculations btw :O

Currently my circuit looks like this (did some trial and error on the zobel to get an approximate value):
BK21610 - Zobel: 4.7uf + I forgot what I used for the resistor oops (think it was 25ohms?), 2nd order low pass: 47uf+10ohm x 2 (15mm length, 2mm diameter, white filter)
4 x RAB32063 - series-parallel - Zobel: 5uF + 38ohms, 30ohms in series (15mm length, 2mm diameter, white filter)
SWFK31736 - 0.33uf + 0.2uf series (15mm length, 1mm diameter)


----------



## Xymordos

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Link please



The seller actually only sells molds for universal shells, I had to ask the seller to make the shells and sell me finished shells since I don't like making the shells.
https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1z09.2.0.0.49232e8d7RDvlx&id=561980218822&_u=6kqv5elafa3


----------



## Ivan TT

Xymordos said:


> Made some progress on the 4xRAB build. Used an SWFK as highs, and a BK21610 as subs. My god the RABs sound great. It is a buttery smooth mids, sounds similar to my planar driver. I used a 15mm x 2mm diameter PVC tube with a white damper on the RAB. Mids are perfect.
> 
> Need some work on the bass though. Without a bass driver it's pretty thin. With a bass driver it can get a bit muddy. I used a regular 15mm length tube with a 2nd order low pass this time without the usual 50mm long tube I usually use. Maybe I should try a longer tube...
> 
> ...


Can you tell more about how tubing is connected to the nozzle please?
Is the nozzle 1 way or 3 way and how do you approached feeding tuning through the nozzle, that’s something I still figuring out...


----------



## Xymordos

Ivan TT said:


> Can you tell more about how tubing is connected to the nozzle please?
> Is the nozzle 1 way or 3 way and how do you approached feeding tuning through the nozzle, that’s something I still figuring out...



I stick all three tubes to the mouth of the nozzle and use a toothpick to fill in the gaps with resin and cure it. Then when the nozzle is sealed I use a syringe to fill the inside of the shell.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (May 6, 2019)

Xymordos said:


> The 5kHz dip is there in the original 4x RAB setup actually. The SWFK just didn't help when filling in as a super tweeter.
> 
> How did you get your freqphase calculations btw :O
> 
> ...


Its easy to fix

SWFK can do 5kHz while acting as a super tweeter, for a distortion increase 2%

BK should be low passed slightly more. RAB bass overtone is muddying BK as BK is not a strong woofer can get effected with RAB bass (the weak bass act as secondary tone or structure tone). Slightly more low passing BK can fix, but has to be hit and trial as I dont know where the mudding will stop. And best part is that you will have more linear and clean mids as a bonus.




And how did I calculated the tubes..

I was actually observing freqphase tubing length on this thread and some other company method. And I observed that tubing of tweeter is double of woofer and mid tube ratio was averaging at 1.2(some had 1.5, some were 1.1)

And best part is that tweeter can have its damper removed plus you can have strongest SWFK 31736 in a long tube.


Flat impedance benefits are that without signature swing we can add resistance in series to control volume and reduce noise and distortion.. Even to whole circuit.

If you add series resistance to your setup, you will tighten the bass + some bass increase due to +7ohm in bass area


----------



## Xymordos

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Its easy to fix
> 
> SWFK can do 5kHz while acting as a super tweeter, for a distortion increase 2%
> 
> ...




I'll see if increasing resistance helps on the BK. If not I might try replacing the BK with a 3700 to see if it helps. The 3700 has better low end extension but I like the BK's punchiness. 

Currently all my tubes are the same length actually - should I change them? i.e., 12.5mm for BK, 15mm for RAB, 25mm for SWFK? I did try 30mm for SWFK but that created phase issues and actually muted the treble. 

Also, right now this set up is harder to drive than my planars. I can only use it on my desktop amp to drive it properly.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (May 6, 2019)

Xymordos said:


> I'll see if increasing resistance helps on the BK. If not I might try replacing the BK with a 3700 to see if it helps. The 3700 has better low end extension but I like the BK's punchiness.
> 
> Currently all my tubes are the same length actually - should I change them? i.e., 12.5mm for BK, 15mm for RAB, 25mm for SWFK? I did try 30mm for SWFK but that created phase issues and actually muted the treble.
> 
> Also, right now this set up is harder to drive than my planars. I can only use it on my desktop amp to drive it properly.


Tweeter always go double of woofer, you have to set mid driver to help with phase issues.
This setup will work, according to calculation. since the electrical phase is pretty linear, It would be easy to adjust in the tubing.

Just tune the BK tubing and mostly everything would work.
If phase cancellation do occur, then adjust SWFK tubing only(it can be double(25mm) or half the lenght-  I mean 6.25mm)

And do make sure that SWFK 5kHz fills the RAB dip(very slightly as your design is universal, the dip is important, but the dip width need some elevation as it looks more apparent).
If you are going with smaller tube version, then make sure you used damped SWFK like 32254

Smaller tubing is phase linear too, but issue is that treble driver can become faster on time domain. The feeling of treble cymbal becoming faster rather than their airy end normal decay. Smaller length tube driver can be slowed down by resonator or expanding chamber or muffler


----------



## dhruvmeena96

@Xymordos 
I was simulating the design as per your specs.
BK is fine on bass....you just have to shift a little lower, that's all. It will clear up the muddy ness.

Even the dip is good for universal.


----------



## MuZo2

Is that tubing connected to shell?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

MuZo2 said:


> Is that tubing connected to shell?


He is using the shell to close of his tubing end. It is the Helmholtz resonator in FIBAE black.
Now this image is here....I know what I have to do....*evil grin*

Thanks for the image


----------



## MuZo2

What is it used for and is it connected to driver tubing?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

MuZo2 said:


> Is that tubing connected to shell?


He is using the shell to close of his tubing end. It is the Helmholtz resonator in FIBAE black.
Now this image is here....I know what I have to do....*evil grin*

Thanks for the image


----------



## Senor CIEM

eunice said:


> I am not sure  it matters, but here the polarity is as you requested:
> https://crcit.net/c/c03b5701



Just to clean the last things a bit up:
So from my understand now, this is the correct way of doing it.
If we switch the resistor with the cap we will get 7dB signal loss.

10V (and up) tantalum cap will do the job.
Polarity of the cap doesn't matter soundwise but wrong polarity will decrease lifespan of the cap.
Which cap tolerance you guys are using?

Is this right?

---

Btw, did anyone notice that in the JH Audio factory video they put on the shematics for the michelle:


----------



## eunice (May 6, 2019)

Senor CIEM said:


> If we switch the resistor with the cap we will get 7dB signal loss.


I doubt the polarity of the zobel matters, but @dhruvmeena96 says so and I didn't check.



Senor CIEM said:


> Polarity of the cap doesn't matter soundwise but wrong polarity will decrease lifespan of the cap.


Correct.



Senor CIEM said:


> 10V (and up) tantalum cap will do the job.


Should do the job according to the NASA paper, but jury is still out on long term effects.

I still wire 2 caps in series with polarity reversed.

Here are unpolarized ceramic caps in values up to 100uF. Ceramics are much better than tantalums anyway. 

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Fre...?spm=a2g0x.10010108.1000001.12.13333069KAvHAg

I ordered those and will try them, maybe they solve all our problems.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

I have question for everybody

What happens if I boost a BA response below 20Hz by 40dB without distorting or any bad thing happening to driver.

It will run fine and will do full range as intended, just imagine it to do 40dB up bellow 20Hz.

If I can nail it down.....then *evil grin*


----------



## eunice

dhruvmeena96 said:


> What happens if I boost a BA response below 20Hz by 40dB without distorting or any bad thing happening to driver.



I can tell you what happens on PA system if you do that. I was producing and performing electronic music back in the days. 

If you have too much inaudible frequencies everything will sound kinda weird as long as the amps can cope with it, then they shut off due to heat. 

Even if you cannot hear frequencies below 20Hz music is carefully constructed to not include these frequencies to not kill the amps. So you would be fine for normal listening. If a producer would use the CIEMs on unmastered tracks and has an amp reproducing these frequencies you will probably just make them uncomfortable to wear.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

eunice said:


> I can tell you what happens on PA system if you do that. I was producing and performing electronic music back in the days.
> 
> If you have too much inaudible frequencies everything will sound kinda weird as long as the amps can cope with it, then they shut off due to heat.
> 
> Even if you cannot hear frequencies below 20Hz music is carefully constructed to not include these frequencies to not kill the amps. So you would be fine for normal listening. If a producer would use the CIEMs on unmastered tracks and has an amp reproducing these frequencies you will probably just make them uncomfortable to wear.


OK then what about zero roll off...will that do.

No roll off.

Amps will not get effected...the boost is structural boost and not electrical


----------



## eunice

Zero roll-off would be nice to have for a producer.


----------



## piotrus-g

MuZo2 said:


> What is it used for and is it connected to driver tubing?


https://www.head-fi.org/threads/custom-art-fibae-black-announcement.893870/
The tube is glued to the inside of the shell to avoid rattling. Other than that the tube is closed system doesn't leak into the shell or to the outside of the IEM. 
It is connected to the driver tubing in order to shape sound signature of FIBAE Black


----------



## Kulgrinda

Senor CIEM said:


> Just to clean the last things a bit up:
> So from my understand now, this is the correct way of doing it.
> If we switch the resistor with the cap we will get 7dB signal loss.
> 
> ...



Does anybody know what drivers are used in this setup?


----------



## MuZo2

piotrus-g said:


> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/custom-art-fibae-black-announcement.893870/
> The tube is glued to the inside of the shell to avoid rattling. Other than that the tube is closed system doesn't leak into the shell or to the outside of the IEM.
> It is connected to the driver tubing in order to shape sound signature of FIBAE Black


@piotrus-g nice to see that you are still finding time to come in here. Thanks for the info.


----------



## eunice

MASM Diagrams: @dhruvmeena96  could you please check if they are correct?

You sent an update to MASM v2 (RAB 32033), you said there should be a 3mm length 3mm ID resonator. How would it be connected, somewhere in between? Would the 2mm ID tube be shortened by 3mm? Should the resonator be before or after the damper?

https://crcit.net/c/d22dba4f





https://crcit.net/c/3972a2ff






https://crcit.net/c/68f6e7c5


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (May 7, 2019)

eunice said:


> MASM Diagrams: @dhruvmeena96  could you please check if they are correct?
> 
> You sent an update to MASM v2 (RAB 32033), you said there should be a 3mm length 3mm ID resonator. How would it be connected, somewhere in between? Would the 2mm ID tube be shortened by 3mm? Should the resonator be before or after the damper?
> 
> ...


Well, MASM v3 is not an upgrade, but like making the RAB add more delay to the bass line and slightly more ambience..
Its a MASM with added sound stage at the cost of slight imaging. Increase in depth and out of head experience

Initial resistance added to whole circuit is 10ohms to tighten things up

No dampers

RAB32033 -> 1.2mm ID(4mm Length from spout) -> 2mm ID(2mm Length, this is the resonator or muffler) -> 1.2mm ID(2mm Length) -> 2mm ID(8mm Length) -> towards the ear

It is used to add bass reverb and decay in the region of 80Hz and below, smooth-en up the high and adding an artificial ambience over the sound stage(Andromeda like, but the ambience here is effecting more of the lower treble or upper mids, which makes the mid sound larger like Audeze)


----------



## eunice

dhruvmeena96 said:


> RAB32033 -> 1.2mm ID(4mm Length from spout) -> 2mm ID(2mm Length, this is the resonator or muffler) -> 1.2mm ID(2mm Length) -> 2mm ID(6mm Length) -> towards the ear


Holy cow.
So would use one 2mmID tube of 12mm length, insert a 1.2mm ID/2mm length tube at 6mm, put a 1.2mm ID/4mm length tube at the nozzle of the driver and then put the 2mmID tube over that.

So it's like this (with a "-" being 1mm length, 1.2mm ID, and a "=" being 1mm legnth, 2mm id):

[DRIVER]----==--======


----------



## dhruvmeena96

eunice said:


> Holy cow.
> So would use one 2mmID tube of 12mm length, insert a 1.2mm ID/2mm length tube at 6mm, put a 1.2mm ID/4mm length tube at the nozzle of the driver and then put the 2mmID tube over that.
> 
> So it's like this (with a "-" being 1mm length, 1.2mm ID, and a "=" being 1mm legnth, 2mm id):
> ...


you are right


i did a opsie above
edited the post
i am sorry


[DRIVER]----==--========

ask @Choy Wei De how to do it...he is master of making tube resonator in the fastest ways possible


----------



## Choy Wei De

eunice said:


> Holy cow.
> So would use one 2mmID tube of 12mm length, insert a 1.2mm ID/2mm length tube at 6mm, put a 1.2mm ID/4mm length tube at the nozzle of the driver and then put the 2mmID tube over that.
> 
> So it's like this (with a "-" being 1mm length, 1.2mm ID, and a "=" being 1mm legnth, 2mm id):
> ...



This is how i used 10mm 1.2mm and 7mm 2.0mm ID to make 11mm long total tube. Total overlap of 6mm.
But its all worth it.


----------



## Choy Wei De (May 7, 2019)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> you are right
> 
> 
> i did a opsie above
> ...



@eunice

It look something like this except the further 2mm from spout will be much longer.


----------



## Choy Wei De

dhruvmeena96 said:


> you are right
> 
> 
> i did a opsie above
> ...



@dhruvmeena96 @eunice

It took me like 1 minute to do this without glue.


----------



## eunice

Thank you so much guys. I will try it.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

eunice said:


> Thank you so much guys. I will try it.


well, it is just for added sound stage and reverb, just to add a pinch of musicality and color to sound. bass becomes more rumbly and region between 2kHz to 4kHz calms a down a little(very little). overtones are increased and the best part is that it doesn't mask the GQ(main driver), but sounds slightly delayed, adding this live like feeling

but imaging is compromised a little(just a little)


----------



## eunice

eunice said:


>



I just realised, the zobel acts for both drivers. Right? So the zobel and the two drivers in parallel, or did I mess up the diagram?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

eunice said:


> I just realised, the zobel acts for both drivers. Right? So the zobel and the two drivers in parallel, or did I mess up the diagram?


Zobel is parallel to RAB and RAB only
And it has to be parallel to RAB only

Dont make it parallel to both


----------



## eunice (May 7, 2019)

But then my diagram is wrong. How should I connect the GQ if not in parallel to the zobel and the RAB?

According to my diagram the + of the audio source is connected to the cap of the zobel, to the + of the RAB and + of the GQ. 
The - of the audio source is connected to the resistor of the zobel, to the - of the RAB and the - of the GQ. 

So all three in parallel. 

If that’s not correct I have to fix the diagrams.


----------



## IvanNOON (May 7, 2019)

Problem with zobel is that if there is nothing before it (like a resistor or a cap) - it defacto affects all drivers


----------



## dhruvmeena96

IvanNOON said:


> Problem with zobel is that if there is nothing before it (like a resistor or a cap) - it defacto affects all drivers


First connect GQ negative to negative supply

Then connect RAB negative to zobel, and Zobel negative to the power supply


----------



## eunice

dhruvmeena96 said:


> First connect GQ negative to negative supply
> 
> Then connect RAB negative to zobel, and Zobel negative to the power supply


Did I specify that correctly in my diagrams ?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

eunice said:


> Did I specify that correctly in my diagrams ?


Nopes...

But I think I made a paper diagram with mmcx once.

RAB negative goes to zobel, and from there, you take zobel + RAB negative pole and connect to GQ negative and then to connection port.


----------



## eunice

dhruvmeena96 said:


>


This the diagram ?

If you disregard any resistance/capacitance or inductivity of the wires (which I think we can do) then that is all 3 in parallel. Or isn’t it?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

eunice said:


> This the diagram ?
> 
> If you disregard any resistance/capacitance or inductivity of the wires (which I think we can do) then that is all 3 in parallel. Or isn’t it?


Well, its better to try take measurements for what you are thinking because the above diagram you posted was sorta right, but I would have connected RAB negative to zobel and then passed it down.
Zobel is paralleled to driver before it goes into parallel with any other driver or is getting a crossover.

It is soldered on speaker terminal itself on some loudspeaker diy

Zobel has to correct RAB only


----------



## Ivan TT

eunice said:


> This the diagram ?
> 
> If you disregard any resistance/capacitance or inductivity of the wires (which I think we can do) then that is all 3 in parallel. Or isn’t it?


Parallel of course.
But it does not matter THAT much as zobel is quite forgiving as to the values and even if the resistor value is too high for 3 drivers in parallel (as opposed to 1 RAB) overshooting resistor value compared to the calculated one actually helps. Cap could be made x2 as the inductance decreases in parallel arrangement.


----------



## eunice

Thank you. @Ivan TT 

On a side note: with what values would you start experimenting with a Zobel for a Knowles GV ?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Now, I was able to comprehend what you were trying to say...
I will upload even clearer diagram with soldering schematics
By today


----------



## dhruvmeena96

GQ positive wire, zobel wire and RAB soldered on the Rs1= 10ohms resistor leg.
Other leg of resistor was on MMCX positive .


----------



## IvanNOON

dhruvmeena96 said:


> First connect GQ negative to negative supply
> 
> Then connect RAB negative to zobel, and Zobel negative to the power supply


Do you really not understand this?


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (May 8, 2019)

IvanNOON said:


> Do you really not understand this?


OK
.....


I posted, how I soldered mine
Please read what I wrote below.

It is the same, how you put zobel in

Before that I was getting confused due to my lack of comprehending the post above by @eunice 



dhruvmeena96 said:


> Now, I was able to comprehend what you were trying to say...
> I will upload even clearer diagram with soldering schematics
> By today


----------



## IvanNOON

And this is how I would solder it for 2-pin


----------



## Kulgrinda

And in this case zobel would be affecting both drivers. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I would place zobel in the middle of the wires going to RAB.


----------



## IvanNOON

Kulgrinda said:


> And in this case zobel would be affecting both drivers. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I would place zobel in the middle of the wires going to RAB.


That's what I'm on about! It does not matter! 
Zobel will affect both drivers even if you place it in the middle of the wires because both + and - are shared


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Kulgrinda said:


> And in this case zobel would be affecting both drivers. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I would place zobel in the middle of the wires going to RAB.





IvanNOON said:


> And this is how I would solder it for 2-pin


@Kulgrinda
Zobel will effect both the drivers...

Because its the overall impedance we are talking here rather than single driver impedance.

I soldered it to all of my mmcx less to make it look simpler and more convenient and easier to debug


----------



## Kulgrinda

IvanNOON said:


> And this is how I would solder it for 2-pin





dhruvmeena96 said:


> @Kulgrinda
> Zobel will effect both the drivers...
> 
> Because its the overall impedance we are talking here rather than single driver impedance.
> ...



Ok, if you say so


----------



## IvanNOON

@Kulgrinda @dhruvmeena96


----------



## Kulgrinda




----------



## eunice

Please, I think the point is made sufficiently clear, we are all not professionals and we are all trying to learn. Wires do have a resistance, signals do take time to travel through a wire, wire loops do create an inductance. 

But we are among audiophiles here, we should trust our ears. 


Does anyone remember how @Ivan TT would calculate the Zobel for a Knowles GV? He had a nice formula for starting values.


----------



## Ivan TT

eunice said:


> Does anyone remember how @Ivan TT would calculate the Zobel for a Knowles GV? He had a nice formula for starting values.


This one?
https://diyaudioprojects.com/Technical/Speaker-Zobel/


----------



## eunice

Ivan TT said:


> This one?
> https://diyaudioprojects.com/Technical/Speaker-Zobel/


This is the exact formula, but you had a rule of thumb if we do not know voice coil inductance, which we don’t for knowles GV. We only have impedance.


----------



## Ivan TT (May 8, 2019)

eunice said:


> This is the exact formula, but you had a rule of thumb if we do not know voice coil inductance, which we don’t for knowles GV. We only have impedance.


HODVTEC's one is known (7.9mH), assuming same value for TWFK (or each driver) 0.47-1uF is a good starting point.
But I would try going higher (4.7-10uF) as higher capacitance seem to improve bass and provides less colouration (especially if resistor value is overshot by another 20-25%).
I don't really believe zobel for BAs should be based on formula (unless it's a starting point), tuning by the ear and alternatively using LIMP (although I did not like the straightest impedance curve I could get by adjusting resistance/capacitance) give better results.
PS: sorry, I don't have GV and will be getting it at some stage, but not too soon.


----------



## IvanNOON

eunice said:


> Please, I think the point is made sufficiently clear, we are all not professionals and we are all trying to learn.


Sorry if I went a little overboard, I got a wrong impression that @dhruvmeena96 didn't understand such a basic thing.



eunice said:


> Wires do have a resistance, signals do take time to travel through a wire, wire loops do create an inductance.


IMO such things are negligible for our projects


----------



## Ivan TT

IvanNOON said:


> And this is how I would solder it for 2-pin
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Photo


I did just that using mmcx connector and actually would not recommend it: too easy to overheat socket and too tricky to get it tidy.
Best approach that works for me now is to solder 0805 SMDs together, seal with Bondic, solder to estron wires some place between socket and drivers, seal solder points with Bondic again, glue up to the shell. Going to try same approach on crossovers soon, have few well overdue multi-driver configurations to build


----------



## eunice

Ivan TT said:


> HODVTEC's one is known (7.9mH), assuming same value for TWFK (or each driver) 0.47-1uF is a good starting point.
> But I would try going higher (4.7-10uF) as higher capacitance seem to improve bass and provides less colouration (especially if resistor value is overshot by another 20-25%).
> I don't really believe zobel for BAs should be based on formula (unless it's a starting point), tuning by the ear and alternatively using LIMP (although I did not like the straightest impedance curve I could get by adjusting resistance/capacitance) give better results.
> PS: sorry, I don't have GV and will be getting it at some stage, but not too soon.


Thank you so much. I know from what you have told that we need to tune by ear. But having a reasonable starting point helps a lot for experimenting.

So you would chose the resistor to be the impedance @500Hz (wich is 50 Ohms) and the cap to be 4.7uF-10uF as a start value for experimenting ?


----------



## eunice

Regarding wire inductance/resistance:


IvanNOON said:


> IMO such things are negligible for our projects


I do think so too. But remember, we are on an audiophile forum, think about that next time you de magnetize your CDs.


----------



## IvanNOON

eunice said:


> Regarding wire inductance/resistance:
> 
> I do think so too. But remember, we are on an audiophile forum, think about that next time you de magnetize your CDs.



We are on an audiophile forum, that's why I burn-in my litz wires for at least 300hours before I build anything 
/s


----------



## Ivan TT (May 8, 2019)

eunice said:


> So you would chose the resistor to be the impedance @500Hz (wich is 50 Ohms) and the cap to be 4.7uF-10uF as a start value for experimenting ?


Anywhere between 50 and 64 Ohm as a starting point, yes.
Cap - 1uF as per hypothesized inductance of GV, but would also be planning to overshoot it up to 10uF.


Spoiler



I feel a bit bad about not having GVs to do the tuning on them similar to BS6's (but I have an excuse - it was either GVs or taking kids to Billie Eilish, the choice was rather obvious), but a friendly awesome head-fi'er may loan me a pair of GVs soon - stay tuned


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Ivan TT said:


> HODVTEC's one is known (7.9mH), assuming same value for TWFK (or each driver) 0.47-1uF is a good starting point.
> But I would try going higher (4.7-10uF) as higher capacitance seem to improve bass and provides less colouration (especially if resistor value is overshot by another 20-25%).
> I don't really believe zobel for BAs should be based on formula (unless it's a starting point), tuning by the ear and alternatively using LIMP (although I did not like the straightest impedance curve I could get by adjusting resistance/capacitance) give better results.
> PS: sorry, I don't have GV and will be getting it at some stage, but not too soon.


The important part is to get phase linear, the impedance to be flatten enough that it doesnt have unwanted peak and rising inductance impedance in treble


----------



## Choy Wei De

dhruvmeena96 said:


> The important part is to get phase linear, the impedance to be flatten enough that it doesnt have unwanted peak and rising inductance impedance in treble



Possible to come with a middle ground there the Zobel value that works for both RAB and GQ?


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (May 8, 2019)

eunice said:


> Please, I think the point is made sufficiently clear, we are all not professionals and we are all trying to learn. Wires do have a resistance, signals do take time to travel through a wire, wire loops do create an inductance.
> 
> But we are among audiophiles here, we should trust our ears.
> 
> ...


Wire have negligible resistance, well... Well, linear electrical phase takes care of timing issues pretty much on single driver setups.
On multi driver, if acoustic phase is corrected, then everything would sound on time.


Well you shouldn't expect source perfect time.

Plus, I don't remember the exact software, I think rockbox also had a feature for correcting time

Well media player classic has reclock addon(which doesnt work with win10 now)

You have to buffer music into RAM and then according to wire resistance average, you have to reclock the signal speed to get source perfect sound.

Because wires and cable have a law of diminishing result

OFC vs OCC copper has difference of 2% in overall signal improvement(which is neglibile)

So wire resistance, and signal resistance is a topic where we won't go to a positive end


Inductance and capacitance are unmeasurably low on common wire..

If it is bad wire(very bad) then you have to think about it


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Choy Wei De said:


> Possible to come with a middle ground there the Zobel value that works for both RAB and GQ?


No need, RAB near flat impedance when paralleled with GQ, gives more of a linear looking impedance


----------



## ForceMajeure

Ivan TT said:


> Anywhere between 50 and 64 Ohm as a starting point, yes.
> Cap - 1uF as per hypothesized inductance of GV, but would also be planning to overshoot it up to 10uF.
> 
> 
> ...



How does Billie Eilish sound on your iems though


----------



## Ivan TT

ForceMajeure said:


> How does Billie Eilish sound on your iems though


Sounds quite good, actually - especially on BS6, to goosebumps level.
And blessedly no screaming teenagers (my SPL meter measured about 107dB level during the gig, BETWEEN songs).


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Ivan TT said:


> HODVTEC's one is known (7.9mH), assuming same value for TWFK (or each driver) 0.47-1uF is a good starting point.
> But I would try going higher (4.7-10uF) as higher capacitance seem to improve bass and provides less colouration (especially if resistor value is overshot by another 20-25%).
> I don't really believe zobel for BAs should be based on formula (unless it's a starting point), tuning by the ear and alternatively using LIMP (although I did not like the straightest impedance curve I could get by adjusting resistance/capacitance) give better results.
> PS: sorry, I don't have GV and will be getting it at some stage, but not too soon.


Based on formula is for single driver or a setup of same drivers.

Multi driver I hard to predict and I agree with @Ivan TT .
LIMP and ears are more important


----------



## phrancini

hello everyone,
I finally decided to pull the trigger and embark myself in this journey. I've always been fascinated with CIEMs and now it's my turn to get a pair.
This saturday I'm going to visit an audiologist to take my impressions, in the meantime I placed an order on McEar.de after all the post mentioning the store, but now I've a problem.

I placed an order that I'd like to modify before it gets shipped (and also ordered by mistake a product not available in my country but it still went through). I sent them 2 emails but no reply so far.
has anybody ordered from them recently?

since the laquer seems to be unavailable to be shipped internationally is there any alternative product that i can buy?

thanks in advance


----------



## eunice

They usually reply quickly but only during German office hours. Keep in mind this is a small enthusiast store, it’s just one or two persons.

I personally do not use lacquer, since I am simply not capable of using it properly. But I will try again. 

What works for me is first sanding with fine rubber tips 

Rubber Silicon Nail Drill Milling Cutter 
https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/cVbPecLq


Then wild leather https://www.amazon.de/dp/B00NH97NOM/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_FQj1Cb2DWP3XV


Dreve Polishing Compound Polish Wax Bar Buffing
https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/cjkBPj3i

Polishing Buff Round Wheel
https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/c2vGyWqU


This is a very time consuming process and the results are not as good as with lacquer. But it’s comfortable and good enough for me. 

I hope I will learn how to use lacquer one day.


----------



## phrancini

eunice said:


> They usually reply quickly but only during German office hours. Keep in mind this is a small enthusiast store, it’s just one or two persons.
> 
> I personally do not use lacquer, since I am simply not capable of using it properly. But I will try again.
> 
> ...


Thank you very much for your kind reply,
I'll wail for them to answer my email. I hope they will be able to help me. 
In the meantime I'll work on the impression and maybe i'll ask some more help on how to cut them!


----------



## Kulgrinda

phrancini said:


> hello everyone,
> I finally decided to pull the trigger and embark myself in this journey. I've always been fascinated with CIEMs and now it's my turn to get a pair.
> This saturday I'm going to visit an audiologist to take my impressions, in the meantime I placed an order on McEar.de after all the post mentioning the store, but now I've a problem.
> 
> ...



I've placed an order couple of days ago ant it hasn't been shipped yet. But I'm not worried, it is not the first time I buy this that store. Maybe owner is on spring vacation


----------



## Kulgrinda (May 10, 2019)

So I finally found time to test 3 more driver configuration.
I gave another chance for ala etymotic ER4 (ED29689+green filter+18Ohm resistor) and it still was disappointing. Quite sibilant, harsh, without proper bass response and overall unenjoyable.

Then I tried dhruvmeena96's gem - GQ+RAB32033 . Finally managed to wire first setup correctly, can easily say this is a sensitive setup even though I haven't measured total resistance. Oh man this is good! Bass is clear and not overwhelming, details are very much pronounced and there is no sibilance or harshness what so ever. Soundstage is wide, music just flows. This I would recommend more for mainstream music, for classical music I like more pronounced top end. Before this point I wasn't fully happy with any setup I've had made, but this one will probably remain.

And I also did RAB32257 with zobel and helmholtz and horn. This is also a very enjoyable sound coming from 1 driver. Classical music sounds just great, not harsh, but brighter than GQ+RAB. However this is quite difficult earphone to driver. @dhruvmeena96 why do you add series 20 ohm resistor to the whole setup? Does it improve sound? I will probably try it without an additional resistance, some more sensitivity might improve effortlessness of this setup.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (May 10, 2019)

Kulgrinda said:


> So I finally found time to test 3 more driver configuration.
> I gave another chance for ala etymotic ER4 (ED29689+green filter+18Ohm resistor) and it still was disappointing. Quite sibilant, harsh, without proper bass response and overall unenjoyable.
> 
> Then I tried dhruvmeena96's gem - GQ+RAB32033 . Finally managed to wire first setup correctly, can easily say this is a sensitive setup even though I haven't measured total resistance. Oh man this is good! Bass is clear and not overwhelming, details are very much pronounced and there is not sibilance or harshness what so ever. Soundstage is wide, music just flows. This I would recommend more for mainstream music, for classical music I like more pronounced top end. Before this point I want fully happy with any setup I've had made, but this one will probably remain.
> ...


Resistor is to linearise the electrical phase, tighten up the lagged bass due to resonator. Resonator can lag the bass up and resistor tightens it back. Resistor increase the overall treble detail and takes away driver IMD and DPD, which makes it sound larger and effortless.

IMD is intermodulation distortion
DPD is Doppler distortion

Reduction of DPD makes driver effortless
Reduction of IMD increase clarity.


I have done 600ohms on RAB and it outclasses all multi drivers setup. But I needed an amp.

Effect in change of sound starts from 14ohms and the largest effect is at 27.5ohms

After that, resistor seem to show law of diminishing returns

14, 20, 33 and 600ohms are recommended

For MASM....its 8ohms to 12ohms
This amount of resistor can be added...after that...it disbalance the sound... So dont try above that


----------



## Kulgrinda

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Resistor is to linearise the electrical phase, tighten up the lagged bass due to resonator. Resonator can lag the bass up and resistor tightens it back. Resistor increase the overall treble detail and takes away driver IMD and DPD, which makes it sound larger and effortless.
> 
> IMD is intermodulation distortion
> DPD is Doppler distortion
> ...



I haven't tried MASM with series resistor yet, maybe I'll give a go. Thanks!


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Kulgrinda said:


> I haven't tried MASM with series resistor yet, maybe I'll give a go. Thanks!


Series resistor will go on positive leg, after that the whole circuit continues.

Series resistor will increase treble slightly and will increase the tightness of bass overall. Still not sibilant. Overall resolution magnitude will increase and static noise will decrease due to low impedance.

I recommend 10ohms

Overall 16ohms DCR impedance.


----------



## Kulgrinda

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Series resistor will go on positive leg, after that the whole circuit continues.
> 
> Series resistor will increase treble slightly and will increase the tightness of bass overall. Still not sibilant. Overall resolution magnitude will increase and static noise will decrease due to low impedance.
> 
> ...



Static noise is not bad on my DX150. On high output there is some hissing, but on low it is inaudible.


----------



## Ivan TT (May 10, 2019)

In a case you haven’t heard yet, Soundlink will have Sonion BAs in stock in about a week 







Datasheets here:
https://www.sonion.com/documentation/


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Ivan TT said:


> In a case you haven’t heard yet, Soundlink will have Sonion BAs in stock in about a week


Amazing.......amazing


----------



## eunice

Kulgrinda said:


> Interesting measurements, thanks! For the argument's sake - have you tried the same test with reversed polarity on CI?



This should settle it:

 

What Knowles calls "Positive Terminal" in the data sheet should be connected to the positive of the audio source.


----------



## Kulgrinda

eunice said:


> This should settle it:
> 
> 
> 
> What Knowles calls "Positive Terminal" in the data sheet should be connected to the positive of the audio source.



Clear as the sky in the cloudless February day  Thanks!


----------



## eunice

Clarity Shootout 2:


Spoiler: Graph









Keep in mind:

- Tube lengths are too long. Since I build CIEMs, I need the tubes longer to insert and then cut to length later
- No dampers at all yet
- MASM v2 with resonator but no damper and additional tube length
- Knowles GV is included with closed and open vents. Interestingly: Open vents improve clarity a lot.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

eunice said:


> Clarity Shootout 2:
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Graph
> ...


That's C80, which checks the music clarity. Without dampers and tuning perspective, it would just show the capability of driver only.
C50 is important

And D clarity test will actually show overall clarity.

GV with vents open boost the bass so its more hearable but the decay eats up the clarity in real world scenario

As the graphs seems balanced to each other, it will show the nature of clarity and not the amount.

And MASM is a full range design, so the clarity just shows that MASM dont compete in the clarity section. It is just tuning that makes it up.
Crossover drivers like B6 and GV will show higher clarity due to reduced IMD and DPD due to frequency division. 4x RAF shows clarity improvement due to load sharing between same drivers.
Tubing length may create issue as the loss of detail in high frequency is noticeable and long tube adds tube reverb too, which messes up the sound clarity.
But still nice work done. It shows the capability of drivers

Can you post a comparative frequency analysis. That is important for me to tune up the MASM


----------



## PinoNL

As I can’t find an universal shell that fits my ears properly I guess DIY is not for me. Too bad, because I really like all the great designs you guys are working on.

I wish you all the best with designing and building great IEMs.

Ps: if someone (within EU) is interested in buying some of the materials I gathered please let me know by pm


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (May 10, 2019)

PinoNL said:


> As I can’t find an universal shell that fits my ears properly I guess DIY is not for me. Too bad, because I really like all the great designs you guys are working on.
> 
> I wish you all the best with designing and building great IEMs.
> 
> Ps: if someone (within EU) is interested in buying some of the materials I gathered please let me know by pm


I will send some shell link tommorow which you can work with and are under budget and will fit most of the ears.
Just tell me which iem you have tried in day to day life, which fits you like a glove

@PinoNL


----------



## eunice

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Can you post a comparative frequency analysis. That is important for me to tune up the MASM



Here you go:


Spoiler: More Graphs Clarity Shootout 2


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (May 11, 2019)

eunice said:


> Here you go:
> 
> 
> Spoiler: More Graphs Clarity Shootout 2


MASM v2 smashes overall clarity and speech intelligence. I was kinda expecting that


----------



## Firedrops

A little OOTL... what does MASM mean/stand for?


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (May 11, 2019)

Firedrops said:


> A little OOTL... what does MASM mean/stand for?


Most Amazing Set (for my) Mom
I made this for my mom by copying @Furco sensei at pg206, modifying it for my mother's ear to never get sibilant but also push details like crazy without loosing balance.

GQ(double stage damping) + RAB(zero damping) + zobel


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (May 11, 2019)

Since I have done single driver and triple driver, I was thinking of doing dual driver now.

Inspired by Noble Savant, but I think its way better extended and tuned than savant

DDD(Dual driver design)

FED30048
2 ohm resistor
No dampers
7.5mm length tube
(the tube used in savant)


ED30761
2200Ω damper
1.5mm/damper/5.5mm tubing length
(the tube used in savant)




Note : resistor has to be the lowest tolerance wirewound

https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Vishay-Dale/RS1\22R000BB12?qs=/BTaoQrn/PnbZ0Qx%2Bsu7mA==


I have noticed something, if driver doesnt have damper in front of it, it pushes a lot more details, even if it can get sibilant. Damper may tube sibilance down, but it also lowers the speed of which the air is moving through. Like veil. So I remove the damper from the one driver in multi driver setup and then tune around it

Here FED is damper less and main driver
ED30761 is here for bass boost and tone


----------



## PinoNL

dhruvmeena96 said:


> I will send some shell link tommorow which you can work with and are under budget and will fit most of the ears.
> Just tell me which iem you have tried in day to day life, which fits you like a glove
> 
> @PinoNL



I normally use Final Heaven V Aging iems but looking for an over-ear cable design. Haven’t tried commercial iems yet.

The shells I tried:
https://m.aliexpress.com/item/32989...d=3624amp-pySg--D1BfycSn-QABkcDQ1557578360794

And
https://m.aliexpress.com/item/32982...d=3624amp-pySg--D1BfycSn-QABkcDQ1557578360794

The first shell is a little to big for my ear.
The second shell fits my ear but the nozzle is not long enough to get a proper seal.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

PinoNL said:


> I normally use Final Heaven V Aging iems but looking for an over-ear cable design. Haven’t tried commercial iems yet.
> 
> The shells I tried:
> https://m.aliexpress.com/item/32989...d=3624amp-pySg--D1BfycSn-QABkcDQ1557578360794
> ...


Well, that's hard for you to get multi driver setup then..
Some are full universal
Some are semi custom semi universal

Shell 1
https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/cHvbV0oY

Shell 2
https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/bqIeQVWu

Shell 3
https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/bqWGlz1W

Shell 4
https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/bt5jeyPO

Shell 5
https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/cns5xRcc


----------



## PinoNL

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Well, that's hard for you to get multi driver setup then..
> Some are full universal
> Some are semi custom semi universal
> 
> ...



Thank you for your help so far but I don’t think one of these shells is going to give me the fittment I’m looking for. Maybe I’ll have to try some commercial designs just to get an idea of what shells fit my ears.


----------



## ninjadoc

I will try to send a picture of some tips that would solve your issue on sealing. They are some tips that come with some Westone  IEMs.


----------



## Choy Wei De

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Well, that's hard for you to get multi driver setup then..
> Some are full universal
> Some are semi custom semi universal
> 
> ...




The first link is quite good. I had this shell.


----------



## eunice

PinoNL said:


> Thank you for your help so far but I don’t think one of these shells is going to give me the fittment I’m looking for. Maybe I’ll have to try some commercial designs just to get an idea of what shells fit my ears.



Well, build custom shells then?


----------



## PinoNL

eunice said:


> Well, build custom shells then?



I don’t have the time and space to make custom shells. That’s why I was looking for universal shells. 

I had some impressions made though but the earcanal was to narrow for multiple tubes.


----------



## alanwcruz

PinoNL said:


> I don’t have the time and space to make custom shells. That’s why I was looking for universal shells.
> 
> I had some impressions made though but the earcanal was to narrow for multiple tubes.



I have the same problem with narrow ear canals, tried to do the scary build a couple of times and couldn't get the two 2mm ID tubes to fit my shells, the only way to make it work was to pour the acrylic with the tubes already in place.


----------



## Senor CIEM

Just finished another build. Took me really long to fit the tubes in a really small ear canal.
Used 1.5 ID and 2.5 OD. 2mm ID would't work for this. Diameter of the ear canal is around 2.5mm.


 


*Finished version:*


Spoiler: Pics


----------



## eunice

What I do is I make the ear canal a little thicker by applying some wax on the impressions with a brush. Then I normally build the shell and after filling up the ear canal with resin and curing I grind the ear canal down again.

Most bad impressions I have seen have a too thin ear canal anyways and adding a little bit even improves fit.


----------



## eunice

Senor CIEM said:


> Just finished another build. Took me really long to fit the tubes in a really small ear canal.
> Used 1.5 ID and 2.5 OD. 2mm ID would't work for this. Diameter of the ear canal is around 2.5mm.
> 
> 
> ...


Beautiful!


----------



## PinoNL

alanwcruz said:


> I have the same problem with narrow ear canals, tried to do the scary build a couple of times and couldn't get the two 2mm ID tubes to fit my shells, the only way to make it work was to pour the acrylic with the tubes already in place.



Looks great!


----------



## PinoNL

ninjadoc said:


> I will try to send a picture of some tips that would solve your issue on sealing. They are some tips that come with some Westone  IEMs.



I’ve tried a lot of different tips already. Checked out the Westone tips though. The diameter is not for the shells that I have


----------



## ninjadoc

Here is a tip


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Savant with FED30048(no damper) sounds leagues better than normal Savant's ED29689 with green damper.

Its like Sennheiser HD600 with very slight and fulfilling bass boost in IEM.
No harsh peaks, no overly uplifted 2kHz to 3kHz zone. Higher octave air is much more present and imaging is directional cue accurate.
Soundstage seems more natural with width, height and depth.
No lower treble veil and no upper mids intense focus.

It can be a cult favorite pretty easily. Savant with much more maturity.

I think FED30048 is the best mids and treble anybody can get from a BA. It has more extension than ED29689 and 2kHz region is predampened already. It sounds resolving and smooth. Its has more flatter impedance than ED29689+20ohms which kinda get the overall electrical phase to be pretty linear.
In overall, it sounds nearing to electrostatic mids and planar treble.(Stereopravada is right on electrostatic sound from FED30048).


----------



## Xymordos

Isn't the FED30048 out of production though?


----------



## IvanNOON

Xymordos said:


> Isn't the FED30048 out of production though?


Kind of yes and kind of no.
Knowles will make it if you can order 100pc or more


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (May 12, 2019)

Xymordos said:


> Isn't the FED30048 out of production though?


It was from start...out of production.
Knowles makes it as per order.
Some time mouser stocks it up(every year)

I had these drivers lying as I used it in hearing aids

For 25 drivers with a rate of 20$(cheaper than mouser)
https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/knowles/FED-30048-I04/FED-30048-I04-ND/4030036

2weeks wait time on digikey compared to 4weeks in mouser


----------



## eunice

eunice said:


> I will post some when I build the next pair. But it will take some time, maybe a week or two.



Here they are. 

I cut the tubes with a scalpel, and I make sure to remove a layer of the shell with the cut. Since we will be adding material we have to remove some so the ear canal does not get too deep. 

Then I insert something into the tubes, my syringes habe needles that fit exactly but I recently found out I have dremel drill bits that fit too. It needs to be a tight fit so that nothing can enter the tubes. 

After that I just drip some resin with a syringe around the nozzle and cure with a UV flashlight. 



Spoiler: Pics


----------



## Kiina

dhruvmeena96 said:


> It was from start...out of production.
> Knowles makes it as per order.
> Some time mouser stocks it up(every year)
> 
> ...



Well 25 is a lot. Anyone in for a group order? Also can you make like a dhruvmeena96 wiki or somehing  all the information you drop here is so great but sometimes a bit hard to follow or find again when you need it. By the time i finished my MASM build you already made 40 improvements


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Kiina said:


> Well 25 is a lot. Anyone in for a group order? Also can you make like a dhruvmeena96 wiki or somehing  all the information you drop here is so great but sometimes a bit hard to follow or find again when you need it. By the time i finished my MASM build you already made 40 improvements


You were counting...
OK I will make a wiki soon


----------



## Kulgrinda (May 20, 2019)

My girlfriend is looking strange at me.. Wonder why..


----------



## ChrisJensen

Word of caution: when buying capacitors and resistors for MASM, remember to get through-hole resistors and capacitors! I got some surface-mounted ones thinking they were the same but had trouble soldering them to the drivers and wires!
May be common sense, but I did not know what I was doing in terms of electricals 

Also, my ear canals were too small for two 3mm OD tubes. I've gone and purchased two 2mm OD tubes since, and sadly it will affect the sound quality I presume. Just a heads up!  [This is for the MASM build btw]


----------



## DannyBouwhuis

ChrisJensen said:


> Word of caution: when buying capacitors and resistors for MASM, remember to get through-hole resistors and capacitors! I got some surface-mounted ones thinking they were the same but had trouble soldering them to the drivers and wires!
> May be common sense, but I did not know what I was doing in terms of electricals
> 
> Also, my ear canals were too small for two 3mm OD tubes. I've gone and purchased two 2mm OD tubes since, and sadly it will affect the sound quality I presume. Just a heads up!  [This is for the MASM build btw]



My preference goes to surface mount, through hole resistors take up so much space ! Soldering surface mount resistors may be a pain in the ass but it's worth it.. Just put some flux on the smd's and some solder on your iron and touch the smd with the solder, then tin your litz and hold it against the smd (with some more flux) when touched with the soldering iron it should stick, that's what I do, don't have any problems


----------



## eunice

You really should go surface mount. SMD comes in different sizes, 0603 is hard to solder, but 0805 or even 1206 is doable.


----------



## Kulgrinda

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Since I have done single driver and triple driver, I was thinking of doing dual driver now.
> 
> Inspired by Noble Savant, but I think its way better extended and tuned than savant
> 
> ...



Do you connect these drivers in series or parallel? I'm about to make Savant copy.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

ChrisJensen said:


> Word of caution: when buying capacitors and resistors for MASM, remember to get through-hole resistors and capacitors! I got some surface-mounted ones thinking they were the same but had trouble soldering them to the drivers and wires!
> May be common sense, but I did not know what I was doing in terms of electricals
> 
> Also, my ear canals were too small for two 3mm OD tubes
> . I've gone and purchased two 2mm OD tubes since, and sadly it will affect the sound quality I presume. Just a heads up!  [This is for the MASM build btw]


You can press the end of tube to be oval, just a little pinch and you are done.

Something like noble does with universal iem


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (May 13, 2019)

Kulgrinda said:


> Do you connect these drivers in series or parallel? I'm about to make Savant copy.


The drivers are in parallel.
(FED30048 series 2ohms)parallel(ED30761)
DCR is 12ohms

Resistor can be through hole or SMD
Condition is high precision wirewound and extremely low tolerance.

This has name update "project 2".

Well, why did I chose wirewound and low tolerance was because wirewound heat dissipation is good, conductivity is higher for given resistance, somewhat clean sounding extremely slight inductive property actually helps driver signal from RF invasion too...which makes the sound somewhat even more clear. 2ohm value is for impedance matching

Why did I chose not to go for damper in FED is because its peak dB is same to ED29689 after 20ohms and green damper. Plus it extends higher and has less 4kHz energy which makes the treble more metallic and less brittle(some complaints about savant treble). Plus FED extends way higher and ferrofluid sounds amazing. So putting a damper would be sin.


All new iem is named under project banner from my side except for RAB-P and MASM triple driver series. I will remove banner once the idea and design is completed and give it new name


----------



## ChrisJensen

DannyBouwhuis said:


> My preference goes to surface mount, through hole resistors take up so much space ! Soldering surface mount resistors may be a pain in the ass but it's worth it.. Just put some flux on the smd's and some solder on your iron and touch the smd with the solder, then tin your litz and hold it against the smd (with some more flux) when touched with the soldering iron it should stick, that's what I do, don't have any problems



I'll try all your advice, thanks so much! Another question I have though:
Since I need to do a Zobel circuit, and my litz wires are 10cm, how do I wire the capacitor and resistor in series? Do I cut the litz wires and remove the insulation layers?


----------



## ChrisJensen

dhruvmeena96 said:


> You can press the end of tube to be oval, just a little pinch and you are done.
> 
> Something like noble does with universal iem


I will try this and report back. Thanks for your advice! 

Btw, can the two hole drilled in the shell for the tubes be connected (top circles)? Or do they have to be distinct circles and separated (bottom circles)?


----------



## DannyBouwhuis

ChrisJensen said:


> I'll try all your advice, thanks so much! Another question I have though:
> Since I need to do a Zobel circuit, and my litz wires are 10cm, how do I wire the capacitor and resistor in series? Do I cut the litz wires and remove the insulation layers?



You can cut them as short as you need, just dip the ends in flux, put some solder on your iron and dip em in the solder, that should tin the ends.. Just practice a lot, you'll figure out what works best for you


----------



## eunice

ChrisJensen said:


> Do I cut the litz wires and remove the insulation layers?


Another tip: set the temperature of your soldering iron quite high and just apply some tin as normal. The insulation layer will burn away quickly.


----------



## Xymordos

eunice said:


> Another tip: set the temperature of your soldering iron quite high and just apply some tin as normal. The insulation layer will burn away quickly.



Ye, I do this too, really convenient.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

ChrisJensen said:


> I will try this and report back. Thanks for your advice!
> 
> Btw, can the two hole drilled in the shell for the tubes be connected (top circles)? Or do they have to be distinct circles and separated (bottom circles)?


Zoom the image
You will see slight oval tube termination.

Make it slightly more ovalish
And make sure that the tubes touch each other rather than the spacing noble did....
You will have it perfect


----------



## Julienstanford

eunice said:


> Another tip: set the temperature of your soldering iron quite high and just apply some tin as normal. The insulation layer will burn away quickly.



Some wire manufactures add coatings to the wire.  With Cardas each individual strand of wire has a thin coating on it.  Even if it doesn’t have a coating from the manufacture, just melting the shield would leave residue. I found distortion at higher volumes and lack of detail all over if the wire hasn’t been cleaned and tinned properly before soldering.


----------



## Kulgrinda

eunice said:


> Another tip: set the temperature of your soldering iron quite high and just apply some tin as normal. The insulation layer will burn away quickly.



Or use solder bath. Really convenient and you get consistently good results. They go for 12-15 usd on aliexpress.

PS I found that regular thin litz wire from local electronics store works much better than those ultra thin ones from Soundlink store (don't remember their name). They would snap even though I would twist 3 wires into one and then tin them again solder bath. Really disappointed with them. On the good side - local litz is much cheaper and easier to source.


----------



## eunice

Julienstanford said:


> Some wire manufactures add coatings to the wire.  With Cardas each individual strand of wire has a thin coating on it.  Even if it doesn’t have a coating from the manufacture, just melting the shield would leave residue. I found distortion at higher volumes and lack of detail all over if the wire hasn’t been cleaned and tinned properly before soldering.


I noticed that too, but I tin the wire  first and you can see the black residue. But cleaning the soldering iron with the sponge and reapplying heat removes the residue. 
I use estron wire and it works quite well.


----------



## eunice

ChrisJensen said:


> Btw, can the two hole drilled in the shell for the tubes be connected (top circles)? Or do they have to be distinct circles and separated (bottom circles)?



Absolutely. If you can fit the tubes through, everything will be fine. If you have two distinct holes it is a bit easier to get a nice looking finish, but functionality wise you can use one oval bore and fit both tubes. You will fill up the ear canal with resin anyways. 

See my pics above on how to cover the outside with resin, that way you will also cover any remaining gaps. Sometimes when filling up the ear canal the resin does not fill all gaps between the tubes.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (May 13, 2019)

eunice said:


> Absolutely. If you can fit the tubes through, everything will be fine. If you have two distinct holes it is a bit easier to get a nice looking finish, but functionality wise you can use one oval bore and fit both tubes. You will fill up the ear canal with resin anyways.
> 
> See my pics above on how to cover the outside with resin, that way you will also cover any remaining gaps. Sometimes when filling up the ear canal the resin does not fill all gaps between the tubes.





ChrisJensen said:


> I will try this and report back. Thanks for your advice!
> 
> Btw, can the two hole drilled in the shell for the tubes be connected (top circles)? Or do they have to be distinct circles and separated (bottom circles)?


Get a 5mm ID tube, stretch it bit and fit these two 2mm ID(3mm OD) tubes.

Extend the 5mm ID by a bit(2mm length extension from the two tubes to the end of CIEM nozzle end)


----------



## zekester

eunice said:


> Here they are.
> 
> I cut the tubes with a scalpel, and I make sure to remove a layer of the shell with the cut. Since we will be adding material we have to remove some so the ear canal does not get too deep.
> 
> ...



Thanks a lot for showing this. I just tried boring out the canal, running the sound tubes through, and then back-filling from the inside using a syringe. That works great for getting the tubes into position. I think the next step to get them looking more finished the way I want would be to take your approach for cutting and filling the ends with a metal dam of some sort. Ideally, I would like to have something plugging the tube about 1 mm down so that I could finish the end with a ball shaped cutter and then pull the plug out to keep the tube clean and wind up with a feathered end where the pvc and acrylic meet.


----------



## eunice

zekester said:


> I just tried boring out the canal, running the sound tubes through, and then back-filling from the inside using a syringe.


That’s what I do too, the I close the face plate and then I work on the outside to not get any dirt inside. 




zekester said:


> Ideally, I would like to have something plugging the tube about 1 mm down so that I could finish the end with a ball shaped cutter and then pull the plug out to keep the tube clean and wind up with a feathered end where the pvc and acrylic meet.



You could insert dampers and pull them out using the damper tool. Maybe solder a broken damper shut. 

But I don’t quite get your idea of a feathered end, do you mean like a v shape ?


----------



## zekester

eunice said:


> That’s what I do too, the I close the face plate and then I work on the outside to not get any dirt inside.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yeah, I guess something like these sketches. Either where the tube can be cut down so there isn’t a lip, or like in the second one, where the acrylic is built up to form the last section of sound tube. I’m just trying to make that part cleaner, partially because the edge catches wax easily, and partially to just look more pro.


----------



## eunice

zekester said:


> Yeah, I guess something like these sketches. Either where the tube can be cut down so there isn’t a lip, or like in the second one, where the acrylic is built up to form the last section of sound tube. I’m just trying to make that part cleaner, partially because the edge catches wax easily, and partially to just look more pro.


Sounds like a good idea. 

Maybe some hints, don’t know if they are helpful: before you fill up the ear canal, still use some super glue to fix the tubes at the tips. Even if you fill up the ear canal, the tubes can easily stretch/compress to be about 2mm longer or shorter. I learned I need to do that to easier insert/remove dampers and not have tubes move around. 

Otherwise, use a tube for training before building a CIEM. Tubes do react weird to grinding and drilling (they twist, move around, melt from grinding). Maybe a sharp knife is the better tool to cut out the tubes. 

As I said, I like your idea and never tried myself, so I have no idea if I‘m actually helping, but I thought I share some experience anyways.

I would love to see you succeed.


----------



## ForceMajeure

ChrisJensen said:


> I will try this and report back. Thanks for your advice!
> 
> Btw, can the two hole drilled in the shell for the tubes be connected (top circles)? Or do they have to be distinct circles and separated (bottom circles)?



Don't drill 2 separate holes it's a waste of time and very difficult to slide the tube through.

Just drill a big hole, as big as you'll need. Start with a pointy small diamond burr and slowly enlarge the tip with bigger ones. keep rotating around with the big one until you get the hole as big as you need.

don't worry about having thin walls (just make sure you don't crack them trying to go too thin. the limit I was able to go was about 0.4mm thickness)  since you will be filling the canal with resin and cure it.


----------



## Xymordos

ForceMajeure said:


> Don't drill 2 separate holes it's a waste of time and very difficult to slide the tube through.
> 
> Just drill a big hole, as big as you'll need. Start with a pointy small diamond burr and slowly enlarge the tip with bigger ones. keep rotating around with the big one until you get the hole as big as you need.
> 
> don't worry about having thin walls (just make sure you don't crack them trying to go too thin. the limit I was able to go was about 0.4mm thickness)  since you will be filling the canal with resin and cure it.



This is the method i use too.


----------



## ninjadoc

Kiina said:


> Well 25 is a lot. Anyone in for a group order? Also can you make like a dhruvmeena96 wiki or somehing  all the information you drop here is so great but sometimes a bit hard to follow or find again when you need it. By the time i finished my MASM build you already made 40 improvements


I would go in for a few - 4 or so.


----------



## ChrisJensen

Hey guys, I've a question regarding the sticking the faceplate to the shell and connector.

I plan to create a rather opaque shell and the faceplate is definitely an opaque layer of acrylic.

My question is, how do I cure the uv glue if it is used between two opaque layers? Wouldn't the UV light not reach the glue?

Is it better instead to use a more transparent acrylic?


----------



## ChrisJensen

Also, how do you guys ensure that the connector is strongly adhered to the shell? Isn't the force of plugging in the wires rather strong?


----------



## Kulgrinda

ChrisJensen said:


> Also, how do you guys ensure that the connector is strongly adhered to the shell? Isn't the force of plugging in the wires rather strong?


Acrylic is strong material. I use 2 pin connectors with the groove in the middle, grind shell to barely fit this groove and slide the connector so it is already supported by the shell. Then I apply small amount of acrylic around the perimeter on both sides of the plug and cure it. Never had any issues with this.

However I have doubts mmcx or deep insert (without the groove) 2 pin plugs would be that reliable, but manufacturers use those so I might be wrong. I would walk away from mmcx since connecting/clamping is very strong and possibility to break it is greater.


----------



## ChrisJensen

Kulgrinda said:


> Acrylic is strong material. I use 2 pin connectors with the groove in the middle, grind shell to barely fit this groove and slide the connector so it is already supported by the shell. Then I apply small amount of acrylic around the perimeter on both sides of the plug and cure it. Never had any issues with this.
> 
> However I have doubts mmcx or deep insert (without the groove) 2 pin plugs would be that reliable, but manufacturers use those so I might be wrong. I would walk away from mmcx since connecting/clamping is very strong and possibility to break it is greater.



Ah, just what I suspected about the MMCX. Unfortunately I already bought some of those and some new wires. Maybe I'll ship some new 2 pin connectors in the near future. Thanks for your input, greatly appreciated!


----------



## eunice

ChrisJensen said:


> Also, how do you guys ensure that the connector is strongly adhered to the shell? Isn't the force of plugging in the wires rather strong?


That is a big factor and I have lost a lot of ciems by pushing the connector into the CIEM. If that happens, there is no way to repair. There is also another breaking point with mmcx: I lost a fire CIEM where the walls of the mmcx got bent outwards. The connector still works but the plugs would keep falling out. This happens if you apply a force on the connector during inserting/removing the clems in your ears or if you accidentally pull the cable. 

What I do to prevent it: 

1) Drill a hole almost exactly the size of the mmcx (I angle it a little so the plug is angled away from the head), just a little bigger. 

2) after drilling the hole for the connector I scratch the area around the hole on the inside of the CIEM with a scalpel, creating deep grooves for the resin to stick to. 

3) I put some blue tack on the outside of the CIEM and put the mmcx connector in, just so that it sticks out for half a mm on the outside. The more it sticks out, the easier you bend the walls later. The less it sticks out, the more support for the wall of the mmcx by the resin. 

4) I cover the inside of the mmcx with resin, multiple layers if needed. It needs to be a thick layer of resin. 

Still I do not trust the mmcx and I am really careful to not break it. I should probably switch to 2pin too, but I have lots of mmcx equipment already (cables, connectors but also Bluetooth and lightning adapters)


----------



## eunice

ChrisJensen said:


> My question is, how do I cure the uv glue if it is used between two opaque layers? Wouldn't the UV light not reach the glue?



Use super glue. Most of them emit a white fine while curing, but with opaque shells that is not a problem. 

There is also 2 component epoxy glue, that works very nice too. 

I bought special UV curing faceplate glue but I never got it to make a strong connection even with transparent shells.


----------



## ChrisJensen

eunice said:


> That is a big factor and I have lost a lot of ciems by pushing the connector into the CIEM. If that happens, there is no way to repair. There is also another breaking point with mmcx: I lost a fire CIEM where the walls of the mmcx got bent outwards. The connector still works but the plugs would keep falling out. This happens if you apply a force on the connector during inserting/removing the clems in your ears or if you accidentally pull the cable.
> 
> What I do to prevent it:
> 
> ...



Wow, thanks for the tips! I haven't actually gotten my MMCX connectors so I didn't know how fragile the walls are. In fact, I always thought MMCX didn't have any cons at all. Thanks for opening my eyes to a whole host of problems! Cheers mate, greatly appreciated!


----------



## dhruvmeena96

OK....I was thinking about making this
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/reference_earphones.htm


----------



## Kiina

Had a bit of a mishap, as I poured the form as it was a bit too hot. Some of the wax got loose of the impression and made his was way to the top. Everything looking okay except the end of the ear canal has a bit of a bubble. Should I redo it or is there any way to fix it? I think I could potentially just harden the whole part and sand it off?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Kiina said:


> Had a bit of a mishap, as I poured the form as it was a bit too hot. Some of the wax got loose of the impression and made his was way to the top. Everything looking okay except the end of the ear canal has a bit of a bubble. Should I redo it or is there any way to fix it? I think I could potentially just harden the whole part and sand it off?


Just make sure that the mould is of getting effected by the bubble so that it doesnt fit the ear.
 Try sanding it off, if it doesnt fit, then you have to remake it again


----------



## eunice

My 2 cents: Redo. It won't turn out nice. Just melt the agar again and pour it again. It needs to be 55°C or below. Cool down slowly and evenly so it doesn't turn solid in parts.


----------



## Kiina

eunice said:


> My 2 cents: Redo. It won't turn out nice. Just melt the agar again and pour it again. It needs to be 55°C or below. Cool down slowly and evenly so it doesn't turn solid in parts.



Okay I yoloed it, shell turned out okay for the most part. Unfortunately I got a hole in another part which I only saw after already starting the build. 2nd try turned out great (I feel like not using the fridge to cool it produces less bubbles and better negatives), was nearly finished, but then it broke the shell when I inserted the MMCX. Should've gotten the one soundlink sells (got this style and can't recommend it: https://shop.r10s.jp/g4-shop/cabinet/item/imgrc0113492378.jpg )


----------



## eunice

Kiina said:


> Okay I yoloed it, shell turned out okay for the most part. Unfortunately I got a hole in another part which I only saw after already starting the build. 2nd try turned out great (I feel like not using the fridge to cool it produces less bubbles and better negatives), was nearly finished, but then it broke the shell when I inserted the MMCX. Should've gotten the one soundlink sells (got this style and can't recommend it: https://shop.r10s.jp/g4-shop/cabinet/item/imgrc0113492378.jpg )


It's a learning process. But you will be happy once you made your first working pair.

Read my post above regarding the MMCX connectors if you are interested in how I do it.


----------



## Kiina

eunice said:


> It's a learning process. But you will be happy once you made your first working pair.
> 
> Read my post above regarding the MMCX connectors if you are interested in how I do it.



Yeah, I read that, the problem with this type of connector is that you can't really drill a hole the right size. You have to drill and make it bigger by eyeballing which makes it a bit problematic. I used UV glue instead of resin, fixed the broken part with some glue and lacquer and it holds up for now. Sure it will probably break sooner or later, esp if I reconnect it, but I will have to redo it anyway if I wanna use it more often. The surface is really unsmooth so next time I probably need to sand it completely or something? I tried polishing it and hoped the lacquer would fix the smaller bumps, but I guess not. Good thing I switched to white Pro3dure as it seems to mask the fault better than the transparent Fotoplast I used before. The more I get familiar with the workflow and material, the more I got respect for stuff like the wizard designs. Charging 200-400$ for that type of work sounds really reasonable now and I got even more respect for these great designs than before.


----------



## zekester

Kiina said:


> Yeah, I read that, the problem with this type of connector is that you can't really drill a hole the right size. You have to drill and make it bigger by eyeballing which makes it a bit problematic. I used UV glue instead of resin, fixed the broken part with some glue and lacquer and it holds up for now. Sure it will probably break sooner or later, esp if I reconnect it, but I will have to redo it anyway if I wanna use it more often. The surface is really unsmooth so next time I probably need to sand it completely or something? I tried polishing it and hoped the lacquer would fix the smaller bumps, but I guess not. Good thing I switched to white Pro3dure as it seems to mask the fault better than the transparent Fotoplast I used before. The more I get familiar with the workflow and material, the more I got respect for stuff like the wizard designs. Charging 200-400$ for that type of work sounds really reasonable now and I got even more respect for these great designs than before.



Some things I have been learning along the way... keep every failed attempt so you can practice on something. My first shells I had too many bubbles and wound up with bad shells, but I used them for figuring out how to cut the slots for the connectors. Earlier in the thread @Shilohsjustice made the point to just take each step slow and you will have less work in the end. That turned out to be very true for me, especially in the stages where you have to wait for the right temperatures on the wax and agar. For the connectors I sacrificed a 2 pin and a MMCX and tried on my failed shells to find a point where I had enough acrylic built up on the inside to handle abuse. Once I figure out a process for one part of the build, I move on to the next one and take what I have learned and apply it to my good shells. My kids have learned the concept of using a 'sloppy copy' at school for writing reports and essays and then moving that to the final draft. I do the same thing here. I have also been making partial shells for just the spout end, because I have been trying to figure out how to make the ends really finished looking, or experimenting with materials there. I waste a lot less fotoplast that way.


----------



## ChrisJensen

Hey friends, ran into some problem with the MASM. When soldering the zobel circuit, it seems that the resistance between the 41ohm resistor and the capacitor measures as 1 on the multimeter. Is this correct?


----------



## eunice

From where to where do you measure in your picture?


----------



## eunice

I have a question: how different are RAF-32873 and RAB-32257?

I built a 4xRAF series and I want to replicate it for someone. But I killed 3 drivers and have to reorder some for the second pair. Soundlink no longer has the drivers, can I build a 4xRAB and expect similar or the same sound?


----------



## eunice (May 18, 2019)

I spent the last hours testing three different pair of CIEM.

*Setup*

DAC/AMP: Audio-GD NFB-11, Dragonfly Black, iPhone with stock 3.5mm adapter

CIEMs: 4x RAF-32873 series with Zobel (design by @Ivan TT ),  MASM v2 with resonator (design by @dhruvmeena96 ) , Bellsing 6 with Zobel 22uF + 25 Ohm (zobel by @Ivan TT )

Reference: Sennheiser IE80s with InAir tips, Sennheiser HD650

Whisky: Laphroaig 18yrs.

Conclusion first:

Best bass and overall performance: Bellsing 6.
Best mids and winner for classical music: 4xRAF, but only with a very good amp.
Best highs highs and best soundstage: MASM v2, but occasionaly shouty and not flattering to some voices



Detailed writeup:

*4xRAF*

Build: $32 for the drivers, but very hard to build. The build looks easier than it is, I lost 3 drivers in the process. That build was a lot of swearing.

Driveability: The iPhone is not able to drive the 4xRAF properly, even the dragonfly is struggling a little, but it sounds great with the NFB-11.

Sound:
Classical music is exceptionally good on the 4xRAF, "Samson et Dalila, Op 47: Bacchanale" https://tidal.com/track/65160315 or Richard Straus https://tidal.com/track/65160315  sounds best on 4xRAF, by far. Even when the entire orchestra is playing, you can still make out individual instruments and soundstage stayd intact. Phenomenal, even beating the HD650 in some recordings.

However, the 4xRAF is not very precise in the highs and in the bass. There seem to be peeks, valleys and resonances on both ends of the spectrum. In some electronic music basslines some of the notes jump at you while others get muted, for example Stimming the Origin https://tidal.com/track/20484043 is very annoying to listen to.

Same with vocals, some voices stay intact, others get colored. e.g. Billie Eilish sounds great but Haley Reinhard or Roisin Murphy sound a little thin. E-Guitars get the "thin" treatment too (Billy Talent - Red Flag)

Conclusion: Nothing for on-the-go, because it's hard to drive. Phenomenally good for classical music and a coin-flip for everything else.

*MASM v2*

Build: ~$70 for the drivers. The build looks harder than it is, some wiring and a zobel and you're done. Tubing is easy with two separate drivers.

Driveability: Easy to drive, no problem to use from iPhone.

Sound:

Soundstage and air is phenomenal. However the signature is clearly tilted towards presence, imaging and soundstage. I grew up with the Sennheiser signature, so this is not my personal preference.

Electronic music sounds great, club-tracks sound like on a big open-air PA system, Jazz sounds great too.

However, some things do not sound good. Amy Whinehouse for example sounds tinny, and in classical music the soundstage breaks down if there's a lot going on. If it fails, then the highs get shouty and distorted. Sometimes to the point that they hurt. 

Conclusion: Great if you love soundstage and presence paired with a great bass and don't mind the occasional shouty highs.

*Bellsing 6*

Build: $60 - $90 for the drivers, Soundlink varies pricing a lot. Build is quite easy - less wiring than the MASM but you have to stretch a tube over two nozzles.

Driveability: Very very easy to drive. Sounds good with everything you throw at it.

Sound:

Best bass and in my opinion the best balance of all the three. Amy Whinehouse sounds best on these, by far. Even better than on the HD650. Highs are very good too, not as good as the MASM but always pleasing.

The Bellsing 6 is behind the MASM v2 in soundstage and highs and behind the 4xRAF in classical music. But in contrast to the other two, it always sounds good. It never colors voices as much as the MASM 4xRAF and it never becomes annoying in the highs as the MASMv2 sometimes does.

Conclusion: Very warm set with a phenomenal bass. Slight weaknesses in the mids but a great soundstage although not as good as the MASM. Sounds good or great with absolutely everything I tried.
This is the first set I prefer over the Sennheiser for the range of music that I like.


----------



## Bassiklee

Thank you for that.  How would you say the Bellsing 6 compares to the GV?


----------



## eunice

Bassiklee said:


> Thank you for that.  How would you say the Bellsing 6 compares to the GV?



B6 with zobel is way better than the GV without zobel. Without zobel the B6 is worse because the B6 has problems in the lower mids. The GV otoh has do be damped very hard to sound nice (yellow and red). 

As soon as you add the zobel to the B6 there is imaging, soundstage and warmth. It’s crazy what the zobel does to the B6, I still can’t wrap my head around that. 

If someone finds a zobel for the GV there would be potential for an improvement over the B6 with zobel, as the bare driver is better.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

eunice said:


> I spent the last hours testing three different pair of CIEM.
> 
> *Setup*
> 
> ...


The shouting on MASM is fixed with RAB32033, or a grey damper on default RAB setup inside the MASM.


I agree on treble issue of 4 xRAB.

That's why I came with new and better method.
4x RAB parallel + 20ohms + new zobel

New zobel 
Cz = 2uF
Rz = 32ohms.

Flattest electrical impedance and phase. More efficient in treble production


----------



## eunice

BTW, this is the MASMv2. Testing out the all white design for my wife (she will also get a white cable of course)


----------



## ChrisJensen

eunice said:


> From where to where do you measure in your picture?


From either ends of the green and red wire. 



Is the resistance of the capacitor supposed to be extremely high/low?


----------



## eunice

ChrisJensen said:


> From either ends of the green and red wire.
> 
> Is the resistance of the capacitor supposed to be extremely high/low?


The ‚resistance‘ of the capacitor depends on the frequency measured. For DC it starts at zero and goes to infinity quickly. 

My multimeter measures an open circuit and shows no resistance at all. So 1 Ohm sounds incorrect. The only reason it should measure 1 Ohm is that you have shorted all 3 components. But it doesn’t look like that in the picture. 

You could use a component tester like 
https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/cr66mBZO it will show you a nice diagram with a cap and a resistor in series.


----------



## eunice

dhruvmeena96 said:


> The shouting on MASM is fixed with RAB32033, or a grey damper on default RAB setup inside the MASM.
> 
> 
> I agree on treble issue of 4 xRAB.
> ...


I have used a RAB-32033 with resonator (isn’t MASM v2 with RAB-32033?). I also tried a white damper on RAB but it did not really improve the sound. I will try with other damper configs.


----------



## Ivan TT (May 19, 2019)

eunice said:


> I have a question: how different are RAF-32873 and RAB-32257?
> 
> I built a 4xRAF series and I want to replicate it for someone. But I killed 3 drivers and have to reorder some for the second pair. Soundlink no longer has the drivers, can I build a 4xRAB and expect similar or the same sound?


Not entirely as compared to RAB RAF has better HF and LF extension and is slightly less shouty around 2kHz. RAB has better resolution though.

Having said that (and confirming your observations) there's something fundamentally wrong with x4 RAB and RAF arrangement, lows are just not there.

Strangely enough when I accidentally wired parallel/series configuration out of phase the bass was awesome, so I can only theorise that somehow somewhere there's polarity issue even in straight series configuration perfectly aligned (and electrically in-phase), no idea how and why.

Having said that there's an easy solution: x2 RAF and RAB in series/red damper sound awesome with 55Ohm/10uF zobel.

Give it a go (currently listening to x4 RAB with 2 drivers disconnected), you should have enough drivers left for 2 pairs


----------



## eunice

Thank you for the tip, which RAB do you suggest?


----------



## Ivan TT

eunice said:


> Thank you for the tip, which RAB do you suggest?


I only used 32257 with black cloth on vent removed (crucial to get better bass from both RAB 32257 and RAF by the way).
I believe RAB 32033 is essentially 32257 with cloth removed.


Spoiler: Datasheets



https://media.digikey.com/pdf/Data Sheets/Knowles Acoustics PDFs/RAB-32033-000.pdf
https://media.digikey.com/pdf/Data Sheets/Knowles Acoustics PDFs/RAB-32257-000.pdf


----------



## ChrisJensen

eunice said:


> The ‚resistance‘ of the capacitor depends on the frequency measured. For DC it starts at zero and goes to infinity quickly.
> 
> My multimeter measures an open circuit and shows no resistance at all. So 1 Ohm sounds incorrect. The only reason it should measure 1 Ohm is that you have shorted all 3 components. But it doesn’t look like that in the picture.
> 
> ...



Hmmm, if you say it starts at zero and goes to infinity quickly means the reading of 1 is probably correct (since the multimeter shows 1 when either ends are not connected in a circuit). 

I tried measuring the resistance of the capacitor on its own out of the circuit and realised the reading is 1 too, so I guess it should be alright.


----------



## eunice

Ok, so that’s just your Multimeter telling you that the circuit is open. For DC a cap is basically open. 

Some multimeters can measure caps, I specifically got one for that purpose, since the ceramic caps I found are +/- 10%. I just measure them to make pairs of similar components so there is not a huge difference between left and right.


----------



## Choy Wei De

When you guys using damper, do you position the cloth to be facing the driver or away from the driver?

What do you believe and what have you figured out?


----------



## eunice

I think it doesn’t matter, but most of the time I want to replace the damper after the build so I place the cloth facing towards the driver so I can use the damper tool to pull them out.


----------



## Xymordos

Choy Wei De said:


> When you guys using damper, do you position the cloth to be facing the driver or away from the driver?
> 
> What do you believe and what have you figured out?



The orientation didn't affect the sound when I tested them, but since I use a tool to stick them in, the cloth is always facing the driver.


----------



## chrislawrence (May 20, 2019)

Thank you, everyone, for the great tips. I'm just piecing together my first IEMs with the Knowles GV quad BAs. I have a question about venting the shells to reduce pneumatic ear pressure and listener fatigue. It's something the guys at 64 Audio talk about a fair bit. I noticed that I could just drill a 0.5mm hole in the shell casing, but there's also the Apex and Adel membranes to consider. As they're expensive, i'm wondering if it's worth adding the fancy membranes in or if a small hole would suffice. What have you guys done for shell venting? Cheers!


----------



## Ivan TT

eunice said:


> I have a question: how different are RAF-32873 and RAB-32257?
> 
> I built a 4xRAF series and I want to replicate it for someone. But I killed 3 drivers and have to reorder some for the second pair. Soundlink no longer has the drivers, can I build a 4xRAB and expect similar or the same sound?


Seems they are in stock now:
2PCS RAF-32873 Balanced Armature Driver speaker receiver from Knowles Single full-range
https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/c9Bmgxji


----------



## ChrisJensen

Hello, just a quick question (dumb question maybe).
The left driver is the GQ and the right is the RAB.

It seems like the terminals on the GQ doesn't have any solder compared to the terminals on the RAB. 
Is it right to say I have to manually apply solder for the GQ (left) and not apply solder to the RAB?


----------



## eunice

chrislawrence said:


> Thank you, everyone, for the great tips. I'm just piecing together my first IEMs with the Knowles GV quad BAs. I have a question about venting the shells to reduce pneumatic ear pressure and listener fatigue. It's something the guys at 64 Audio talk about a fair bit. I noticed that I could just drill a 0.5mm hole in the shell casing, but there's also the Apex and Adel membranes to consider. As they're expensive, i'm wondering if it's worth adding the fancy membranes in or if a small hole would suffice. What have you guys done for shell venting? Cheers!


I have thought about this issue a lot too. But really, I can wear mine for days without fatiguing, without any Adel model.
Drilling a hole will definitively kill the sound. You need a good seal.


----------



## eunice

ChrisJensen said:


> Hello, just a quick question (dumb question maybe).
> The left driver is the GQ and the right is the RAB.
> 
> It seems like the terminals on the GQ doesn't have any solder compared to the terminals on the RAB.
> Is it right to say I have to manually apply solder for the GQ (left) and not apply solder to the RAB?


Yes, you have to apply solder. 
You do not need to apply solder to the RAB, but I found out that applying a bit of flux or fresh solder helps with the soldering.
The reason is that flux evaporates and if it’s gone the solder joint will become dull and you need more heat to even melt the solder.

Best advice: put your soldering iron to a hot setting (300C-350C) apply some solder to the wire, put a drop of flux on the driver, hold the wire on the solder pad and just tap shortly with the soldering iron, just so the solder melts.


----------



## Ivan TT

eunice said:


> I have thought about this issue a lot too. But really, I can wear mine for days without fatiguing, without any Adel model.
> Drilling a hole will definitively kill the sound. You need a good seal.


One of my projects on to-do-list is to drill a hole in the shell, glue in 2ID tubing and use dampers as a crude ADEL approximation. The only concern is that dampers seem to not affect LF that much, so this may or may produce desired effect.


----------



## eunice

I bet this will just kill the seal. The seal is very important for low frequencies. 

You will need a damper that only passes frequencies <20 Hz and blocks everything in the audible spectrum. I don’t know how they do it, but I don’t think it’s easy to do DIY.

But what probably would work is having a plug at the end of the tube you can open to talk to someone without taking them out. 

I find that the most stress on the ears is taking them out/in multiple times due to having to talk to someone.


----------



## Xymordos

Ivan TT said:


> One of my projects on to-do-list is to drill a hole in the shell, glue in 2ID tubing and use dampers as a crude ADEL approximation. The only concern is that dampers seem to not affect LF that much, so this may or may produce desired effect.


I've always wondered about testing some loose cling film or something to simulate that ADEL effect. But seems really hard to put in practice.


----------



## chrislawrence (May 20, 2019)

eunice said:


> I have thought about this issue a lot too. But really, I can wear mine for days without fatiguing, without any Adel model.
> Drilling a hole will definitively kill the sound. You need a good seal.


Hi Eunice, I saw in the DIEM Google Docs guide, put together by Chris Furcon, that a vent smaller than .031", which is about .7mm, would not affect negatively the sound and is necessary for comfort. However, this is disputed by Asius, who claim shell vent holes create " squealing feedback effects and diminished sound quality" but of course, it's in their best interest to argue this, since they sell the ADEL plugs. I can see that all my BA IEMs have some form of tiny vent hole, usually around .5mm, and covering it doesn't appear to impact the sound. The main argument for bothering with it doesn't appear to be fatigue but a loss of fidelity caused by a distortive effect of unnatural pressure on the eardrum. Of course, there isn't a whole lot of objective science to support any of this. The ADEL and APEX membranes use ePTFE (from your Gore Tex jacket), which is stretched over a diaphragm to allow it to expand and contract with sound pressure but the pneumatic pressure escapes through the membrane pores. The idea is to simulate the eardrum but with a slightly greater range of motion so it takes the pressure that would otherwise be trapped in the ear canal. Obviously, the 64 Audio IEM users enjoy it, but without the APEX unit, it would have a huge 7mm hole in the back of it. I can imagine that would negatively affect the sound!


----------



## chrislawrence (May 20, 2019)

On this old thread here, there was an informal discussion about the distortive effects of pneumatic ear pressure: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/iems-and-air-pressure-inside-the-ears.425537/, this is what got me thinking how much I need to consider it. Of course, you can just do what was suggested in the thread (the airplane pressure change method or breaking the ear canal seal), but i'm wondering if there are more elegant but inexpensive solutions.


----------



## eunice

I have used faceplates that where too thin together with vented BAs (like hodvtec) and the bass was a complete disaster. You cannot compare a vent in BA that is inside the closed shell with a vent to the outside world. 

If pressure issues arise I simple wiggle with my ears and pressure equalizes, you can also just pull on the CIEM. 

My trick is to make a groove here so pressure equalizes easily. (Yes i just drew a line on my iems to answer on iPhone)


----------



## chrislawrence (May 20, 2019)

eunice said:


> I have used faceplates that where too thin together with vented BAs (like hodvtec) and the bass was a complete disaster. You cannot compare a vent in BA that is inside the closed shell with a vent to the outside world.
> 
> If pressure issues arise I simple wiggle with my ears and pressure equalizes, you can also just pull on the CIEM.
> 
> My trick is to make a groove here so pressure equalizes easily. (Yes i just drew a line on my iems to answer on iPhone)


Hi Eunice, I am not mistaking the driver vent and the shell vent. Did you try a vent hole in the earmold? Was it smaller than .7mm? Where did you put it?
I'll quote the paragraph discussing the earmold vent in the Google Docs file, as it may be useful as a point of reference:

"There is a predictable acoustic change occurring when an earmold is modified with a vent. The following are several general comments on the effects of venting on the low frequencies: .031 vent is primarily a pressure vent and it will have very little effect on the frequency response above 400Hz. .062 to .093 vents will tend to increase the acoustic energy in the frequency range between 500 Hz and 1000 Hz. The acoustic energy increases as the vent diameter increases. .125 to .150 vents will also increase the acoustic energy in the frequency range between 500 Hz and 1000 Hz. However, at some point, the vent may become large enough, in a small ear, to shunt the energy below 1000 Hz."

Of course, this is all second-hand knowledge to me, but I think the size and placement of the vent makes a huge difference in its ability to simultaneously equalize pressure and not reduce the bass quality.


----------



## eunice

Just try it and tell us if it works! I wouldn't know how to drill a .7mm hole, but I would be happy if you would try and tell us if it would work.


----------



## chrislawrence (May 20, 2019)

eunice said:


> Just try it and tell us if it works! I wouldn't know how to drill a .7mm hole, but I would be happy if you would try and tell us if it would work.


I ordered a .3mm-1.3mm CNC drill bit set from Aliexpress for less than $2, but I imagine it would take a few weeks before it reaches Chile, but i'll be happy to share any results I find.


----------



## Bassiklee

Not that I suggest doing it


----------



## Senor CIEM

Well, can anyone proof this?
BS6 got less bass response compared to the GV. Tube seal is ok, tried it with 2 different drivers.
BS6 also got higher noise level compared to the GV.



Spoiler: Measurement - White: BS6 / Blue: GV


----------



## HeyManslowdown97

eunice said:


> Please, I think the point is made sufficiently clear, we are all not professionals...
> 
> But we are among audiophiles here, we should trust our ears.
> 
> ...



I’ve tried to explain this VERY point and there are folks who ONLY use data sheets believing the more information they learn about a particular typic will somehow give them this eureka moment. A lot of “innovation” in my diy experience was by chance or accident. And the times I thought I  dotted all my i’s and cross my t’s it sounded worse even when it was technically  “correct” 

It’s also important to remember that software and algorithms NOT privy to home made Diyer IEMS community can’t calibrate correctly.  

Therefore you can have most amazing spec sheets and the top notch components but if they are mismatches, it’s a moot experience/experience. 

That’s why software companies who make devices get the most out of the components because of their ability to calibrate to maximize their performance. 

Datasheets are just “lab test” in “controlled studies” the Wild is far more bewildering. 

Also, most audiophiles have never studied nor played music so they don’t have trained ears which is also a subjective art form. 

And some also use mp3s on their dacs and then complain about the quality. (Yes, I’ve seen this on head-fi.)


----------



## eunice

Senor CIEM said:


> Well, can anyone proof this?
> BS6 got less bass response compared to the GV. Tube seal is ok, tried it with 2 different drivers.
> BS6 also got higher noise level compared to the GV.
> 
> ...



That measurement looks strange to me, are you sure the measurement is sound?


----------



## eunice

HeyManslowdown97 said:


> Also, most audiophiles have never studied nor played music so they don’t have trained ears which is also a subjective art form.



And yet they are allowed to have an opinion, like one thing and dislike another. It’s like saying if you are not a trained cook or restaurant tester you are not allowed to judge food.

Regarding measurements: 

Nobody here will say they know how a set will sound from the measurements. You can deduce certain aspects from the measurements, e.g. if there are dips and spikes, you will probably hear them, if bass rolls quickly of you would more likely than not question the measurement. 

But measurements are necessary. You cannot try each and every permutation and try to arrive at a good set of CIEM by ear. There are just too many variables to tune. You have to use measurements to rule out the really bad stuff and find starting points for tuning by ear.

Also everyone here knows that measurements are only relevant in comparison to other equal measurements in the same rig. Nobody here would compare my measurements to measurements by others in this channel.


----------



## HeyManslowdown97 (May 20, 2019)

eunice said:


> And yet they are allowed to have an opinion, like one thing and dislike another. It’s like saying if you are not a trained cook or restaurant tester you are not allowed to judge food.
> 
> Regarding measurements:
> 
> ...



Majority have basic understandings of food Principles and ingredients or brought up in a cultural that food was important. For instance an Italian may not study or know how to make pasta but knows what it should taste like.

That said I get your point. Generalizations can be distortions so it comes to quality of discussion, group dynamics,  lack of unconscious biases, etc

To say that everyone is equal footing or that as discussion about esoteric concepts in sound engineering is King because someone(s) is articulating and has  conceptualized a theory sans rigorous  Academic  scrutiny such as basic research that’s publicly funded and taken by the private sect.

My main point is that the R &D budgets to break things and experiment (with everyone’s individual diy design) Diyers  don’t have the equipment nor same priorities/goal in achieving their ultimate results and to do the testing to maximize components. Therefore, head fi who takes your info via cookies is being used by manufacturers that can improve on these discussions. For instance unless you can conduct similar experiments with a large budget you don’t know based on pics or what hypothesis one gives if the information is accurate.

Moreoever if it cost you say 500-1000 of trial and error aka “R&D” to get the best combination of IEM headphones that cost you 18-25 dollars to make would you be willing to share your design or copyright or sell it? or if it’s a cost benefit analysis.

I’m not sure everyone knows about measures are a ballpark figure. I’ve had many discussion that people stick to their guns about this as their merit as so-called experts. In fact many hypocritical members will go as far as hypothesize their theories/experiment and brag about them even before they try them then excommunicated those that they don’t regard worthy of a discussions if ‘some’ info they find offensive because it’s not  technically all “correct.”

This was the case with the subject of your comments and again there are those who will excommunicated if you they don’t like your constructive criticism of their information and will site their specs and data sheet jargon as facts. And for music quality it’s knowing the difference between the talent of Bach vs Handel who used many embellishment notes that was more spectacle than skill and composition.


----------



## eunice

I agree with you.

This is a hobby, everyone should have a different approach and should have fun.

Some just try to get the loudest car stereo, if that gets people into building stuff and experimenting, I am all for it.

Anyway, back on topic, here is a pic of my first ciems with working lacquer.

Bending some wire to a stand and lacquering upside down was my personal eureka moment:


Thanks @Senor CIEM for suggesting to cure longer. After 10 minutes the lacquer was indeed fully cured.


----------



## HeyManslowdown97

“Bending some wire to a stand and lacquering upside down was my personal eureka moment“

I like this and that’s the spirit. (Not to mention breaking things and then finding ways to fix them  )

All the best in your designs!


----------



## Xymordos

eunice said:


> I agree with you.
> 
> This is a hobby, everyone should have a different approach and should have fun.
> 
> ...



Did you manage to find a way to spread the lacquer evenly? I find it really difficult and have to stare into the light to make sure every bit is covered evenly. It's really easy for bubbles to form and it is quite frustrating.


----------



## Bassiklee (May 20, 2019)

I've started dipping mine.  Works well,  just have to cover up the things you don't want lacquer getting into.

An 18 guage blunt needle fits in the 1mm ID tubing.  The 1mm ID tubing fits in the 2mm ID tubing.  I found a 1/8" rubber nipple that fits over the MMCX connector.

I glue a magnet to the lur lock on the blunt needle,  with another on the turning motor.

Needle in the small tube
A piece of small tubing in the larger tube
Rubber nipple on the MMCX

Dip the monitor, then remove the nipple,  and small tubing.  Attach the needle to the motor with the magnet,  let it turn for five min or so.  I start with UV in short bursts,  ten seconds or so....  After a few of those, I hit it until my gun shuts off.  That's two min.  At that point,  the lacquer is set enough that it's not going to move.  I detach the magnet from the turning motor,  and move it to another curing station,  just hanging from some steel.  Ten min in there,  and it's as cured as it's ever going to get


----------



## eunice

Thank you so much for explaining the dipping process. I think I want to try this. 

What kind of container du you use for dipping? Is it also the storage container for your lacquer?

And regarding turning: in what orientation is the CIEM and in what direction is the rotation?

Do you think that putting blue-tack into the mmcx would work? I recess my ports a little and I doubt the rubber nipples will stay on mine.


----------



## eunice

Xymordos said:


> Did you manage to find a way to spread the lacquer evenly?


Not yet. My first try (the one in the picture) turned out quite nice. I just had some very small areas not covered. My second try turned out bad, maybe I rushed it.
The result is looking nice but it does not feel as comfortable as polishing with the polishing wax.
So I still have to work on that.


----------



## Xymordos

eunice said:


> Not yet. My first try (the one in the picture) turned out quite nice. I just had some very small areas not covered. My second try turned out bad, maybe I rushed it.
> The result is looking nice but it does not feel as comfortable as polishing with the polishing wax.
> So I still have to work on that.



Be sure to sand it well before polishing too or the lacquer will peel off after some time.


----------



## eunice

Xymordos said:


> Be sure to sand it well before polishing too or the lacquer will peel off after some time.


You mean sand before lacquering?


----------



## Xymordos

eunice said:


> You mean sand before lacquering?



Yeah, when I lacquered on a smooth shell it peeled off afterwards (like a few months). Realized I had to sand the shell a bit so it will grip.


----------



## Senor CIEM

Xymordos said:


> Did you manage to find a way to spread the lacquer evenly? I find it really difficult and have to stare into the light to make sure every bit is covered evenly. It's really easy for bubbles to form and it is quite frustrating.



For me the key to a good lacquer finish are two things: light and a good brush.

I tried a different brush a few days ago and found out if the brush its too hard, it will make a lot more bubbles on the surface.

Also a good light will help to see, where to put one more or less lacquer. I work here with the reflections to get everything even coated. As @Xymordos said, also sand the shell before doing the final coat. So you can also see where you still have to put some lacquer and where not.


----------



## Senor CIEM

eunice said:


> That measurement looks strange to me, are you sure the measurement is sound?



What do you mean by „sound“? It‘s pink noise on both of it. I wouldn’t trust the measurement above 6/8kHz but it sounds to me as it looks like. Missing a lot of bass information which the GV got. It also looks like it‘s right to me, when I compare the frequency response sheet of soundlink. But please correct me if I‘m wrong. Even if I damp out the mids and the highs of the BS6, the high/low level will be better, but not on a GV level. Tried this on 2 different BS6. How does yours look/sound like?


----------



## eunice

Here is my measurement.

Don't mind the absolute values as I have accidentally reduced the input volume of my measurement mic.

If you add some dampers you will flatten out the peak and get an immensely good sounding headphone. With Zobel it's a lot better than the GV.


----------



## Bassiklee (May 21, 2019)

What kind of container du you use for dipping? Is it also the storage container for your lacquer?

It's a 4oz amber glass jar I keep the lacquer in. I bought 500ml of the Pro3Dure lacquer. It works well,  yellows about like Lak3 does.

And regarding turning: in what orientation is the CIEM and in what direction is the rotation?

Orientation, the blunt needle is stuck into the small bore,  so the end of the canal is pointed at the motor.  They turn clockwise. 

Do you think that putting blue-tack into the mmcx would work? I recess my ports a little and I doubt the rubber nipples will stay on mine.

I don't know.  It's worth a try on a tester shell.  Let me know what you come up with.


Like you,  I was having no luck brushing.  No matter what I do,  I always got bubbles.  I've even thought about spraying lacquer like JH does,  but then Detax has a few videos of them dipping into the colored lacquers,  and I thought "hmmmm"....


----------



## Bassiklee

eunice said:


> Here is my measurement.
> 
> Don't mind the absolute values as I have accidentally reduced the input volume of my measurement mic.
> 
> If you add some dampers you will flatten out the peak and get an immensely good sounding headphone. With Zobel it's a lot better than the GV.




Almost looks like the zobel makes no appreciable difference.  Just easier to drive?


----------



## eunice

I don’t know. I can’t wrap my head around that. 

The difference in sound is massive. The clarity measurement shows a difference, so I think the zobel influences more of the impulse response and makes it easier to drive.

For me this is prove that FR only tells you about the signature (bass heavy or V shaped or whatever) or peaks/dips, but nothing at all about sound quality


----------



## RAFAEL DOUGLAS MARTINS

Hello everyone, First of all, I apologize for the English translation, which is very bad, but I hope you understand my question, I would like to set up an IEMs parser, someone may be helping me how to do it, no I have idea how do I test driver performance


----------



## RAFAEL DOUGLAS MARTINS

mount an IEM analyzer


----------



## dhruvmeena96

@HeyManslowdown97 
I was reading through your statements.
What lol(no offence, I just laughed)

First of all, measurements are important...and its more important than listening. Because it tells the reality of what is actually playing. It tells us how and where to tune it before putting it in our ears for further analysis.

Second, read about psychoacoustic behaviour of brain. Brain works in estimating value. Sometimes a dip won't sound a dip, but will be measured on microphone. When you start raising the dip through equaliser, it can get detailed but not sibilant as you or we are making our brain less estimating.

Third, your listening and our listening can be different. And its different for everyone. One iem can be gem for someone and can be utter trash for others.

And most of the problems come with earcanal, eardrum mismatch in impedance(imbalance of air pressure and bone conduction of eardrum). It can show resonance at specific point and can be dead at other.

Measurements let us come to a common ground.

Hearing is important but tuning anything just by hearing will make it good only for you and not for others.

And second

@eunice was not posting FR but the time analysis of reverb and strength of fundamental tone ratio in graph.

Distortion also effect the listening. Take etymotic er4s and increase 2nd harmonic distortion and it will make the sound warmer without changing FR.

Actually if somebody knows how to read all the graphs and make an inference out of it, then he can predict the sound of iem or speaker.


Well, I consider hearing in last but also essential part. But measurement are first


----------



## HeyManslowdown97 (May 22, 2019)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> @HeyManslowdown97
> I was reading through your statements.
> What lol(no offence, I just laughed)
> 
> ...





dhruvmeena96 said:


> @HeyManslowdown97
> I was reading through your statements.
> What lol(no offence, I just laughed)
> 
> ...



I just laughed back. Music is based on measurements. Western music is  Pythagorean and yes the Brain makes the estimated value based on those ratio. That’s why balance is directly associated with ears. So when people say IEM “space” out the music in a 3D or 4D soundscape with clarity it’s directly linked to balance artificial or natural.

(Even Indian music uses its own  measurements. A sitar is tuned to “psychoacoustics” semitones etc.)

DAC convert Digital binary 1’s 0’s into analogue sound (frequencies) otherwise it’s just digital information.

The IEM operates on pressure with and powered by Ohms Law: Voltage + Resistance in a analogue output “musically.”

I agree that pressure can be too much for many since the ears are directly connected to brain (the only sense that is!).

Sound is pressure in the air.

Majority of what people call music is based on ratios. And even in EVERY tone there’s an Overtone series.

If you don’t agree please define “Musically” or musical when the General  consensus agrees with the langua Franca of what audiophiles like!

Ps even the “airy” sound is an artificial sound that can be avoided by taking away the pressure or limiting it. So sound is arbitrary but our unconscious bias “knows” what “great” sound should be Based on traditional practices in recordings, file quality, frequency, etc

In laymen’s terms a thought isn’t confined to a neurotransmitter but how it receives  existential messaging ie cultural or sub cultural or motifs in styles of music to make the evaluation (you say about the sound in the  psycho acoustics and the brain) that’s received differently by each individual but can be influenced by influencer(s) (group dynamics, tribalism, social media, etc). So it comes down to subjectivity and what ones personal Preference are. 

Therefore, to make the proper adjustments are based on  arbitrary choices that are based on sound principles in electronics and what great music should sound. 

If it was all based on measurements, logic and reason, we’d have world peace. Lol. 

But I digress and this is clearly off topic just wanted to rebuttal your zingers. Lol.


----------



## Kulgrinda

RAFAEL DOUGLAS MARTINS said:


> Hello everyone, First of all, I apologize for the English translation, which is very bad, but I hope you understand my question, I would like to set up an IEMs parser, someone may be helping me how to do it, no I have idea how do I test driver performance


Hi,

If I understood correctly you would like to measure frequency response for your IEM, correct? In that case you have to build yourself coupler. Try searching this thread 2cc coupler, there are several people that posted their results and detailed instructions. Couple comments with pictures I found:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/home-made-iems.430688/page-583#post-14921998

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/home-made-iems.430688/page-557#post-14796217

I haven't built this tool myself but I might sometime in the future.


----------



## RAFAEL DOUGLAS MARTINS

hello *Kulgrinda *, thank you very much for the help, I will give a researched, if you have more that can help us, as it is a very essential device to know what we are doing


----------



## Daedalus1116

Is there a list of drivers, dampers, resistors, capacitors, combinations that work?
I want to build one that's neutral sounding but slightly warm and has great soundstage. Should I go for a single driver or like Bellsing 6, Knowles GK, GV approach?


----------



## eunice

the best one I have built so far is Bellsing 6 + Zobel. It’s easy to build and sounds very nice and fits your description. 

The design is actually by @Ivan TT but I posted the schematics in this above. The Ali Store has included the schematics in the product description of the Bellsing 6.


----------



## Daedalus1116

eunice said:


> the best one I have built so far is Bellsing 6 + Zobel. It’s easy to build and sounds very nice and fits your description.
> 
> The design is actually by @Ivan TT but I posted the schematics in this above. The Ali Store has included the schematics in the product description of the Bellsing 6.


Looking at the diagram the Zobel is just a capacitor and a resistor wired in parrel with the driver?
I think I'll use SMDs, what's the best type of resistors and capacitors?
Thanks a lot


----------



## eunice

Daedalus1116 said:


> Looking at the diagram the Zobel is just a capacitor and a resistor wired in parrel with the driver?



Yes, it's that simple.



Daedalus1116 said:


> I think I'll use SMDs, what's the best type of resistors and capacitors?



Best are ceramic capacitors. You can also use tantalum, but they are polarised so better put two of them in series with reversed polarity. Search for "ceramic 1206 22uf" on ali, mouser or whatever is your supplier of choice.

Problem of these caps is they usually come with +- 10% accuracy. What I do is I order a few of them (100 pcs cost less than $3) and measure them with an LCR meter to have matching pairs. But you do not need to do that.


----------



## eunice

Question: I just read that the mmcx sockets we use have an impedance of 50 Ohm. 

What does that mean. Does it mean there is a 50 Ohm resistor in series or in parallel ?


----------



## Ivan TT

eunice said:


> Question: I just read that the mmcx sockets we use have an impedance of 50 Ohm.
> 
> What does that mean. Does it mean there is a 50 Ohm resistor in series or in parallel ?


Nah, it’s not about mmcx connectors themselves but about their primary use for UHF signals, where cabled connections (usually coaxial) have 50-75 ohm electrical termination (resistor) as part of the standard.


----------



## Ivan TT

So I finally managed to get some IEM measurements done using UMIK and DIY coupler as per @eunice advise.

Picture is clickable.
The most amasing thing here to me is x2 RAFs


----------



## Daedalus1116

Does this indicate that the BS6 + Zobel has V-shaped sound?


----------



## eunice

BS6 is not v shaped to my ears. It has a very slight dip in the lower mids, but it’s negligible and not annoying at all. 

I would describe the BS6+ zobel as slightly warm, highly resolving and very very pleasing.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Daedalus1116 said:


> Does this indicate that the BS6 + Zobel has V-shaped sound?


The graph is normal mic recording and I guess ain't calibrated.

Bellsing 6 is v shape but balanced and RAB has slightly more mids. That is due to DTEC bass


@Ivan TT 

Is it RAF x 2 series and Zobel.

And how about adding a tweeter like SWFK32254 with 1uF capacitor


----------



## Daedalus1116

Does anyone completely fill their IEM shell with resin? Does that make them too heavy?


----------



## Ivan TT

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Is it RAF x 2 series and Zobel.
> 
> And how about adding a tweeter like SWFK32254 with 1uF capacitor


Yes, RAF x2 with zobel.
No to SWFK as crossovers are evil and I don’t like eXCeSSive HF (but I like soundstage and detail).


----------



## Xymordos

Daedalus1116 said:


> Does anyone completely fill their IEM shell with resin? Does that make them too heavy?



I do sometimes. It seems like it sounds better to me but I have no proof. And yes, it's quite heavy - if you have small ears it'll fall out.


----------



## ivanflo

Are there any Australian's here who have been able to find a local supplier for Dreve Lack 3? I have found it on Mcear and ailexpress, both of which do not want to ship down under. 
I had been intending to 3d print my CIEM shells on my anycubic photon and seal the shell post initial curing with Lack 3, to make it skin safe - 'biocompatible'. 

Are there other more commonly used and easily accessible lacquer/sealants I should consider?
Is cured UV resin, skin safe as is? (post curing it)


----------



## eunice

ivanflo said:


> Are there any Australian's here who have been able to find a local supplier for Dreve Lack 3? I have found it on Mcear and ailexpress, both of which do not want to ship down under.
> I had been intending to 3d print my CIEM shells on my anycubic photon and seal the shell post initial curing with Lack 3, to make it skin safe - 'biocompatible'.
> 
> Are there other more commonly used and easily accessible lacquer/sealants I should consider?
> Is cured UV resin, skin safe as is? (post curing it)


The Dreve, egger and pro3dure resin and their lacquers are skin safe. Some say you can use whatever resin you like and cover it in lacquer. 

@Ivan TT is from NZ, maybe he has an idea.


----------



## ivanflo

eunice said:


> Some say you can use whatever resin you like and cover it in lacquer.


I was hoping to do exactly that, Though trying to source any lacquer at all is proving difficult (In Australia).


----------



## MuZo2

ivanflo said:


> Are there any Australian's here who have been able to find a local supplier for Dreve Lack 3? I have found it on Mcear and ailexpress, both of which do not want to ship down under.
> I had been intending to 3d print my CIEM shells on my anycubic photon and seal the shell post initial curing with Lack 3, to make it skin safe - 'biocompatible'.
> 
> Are there other more commonly used and easily accessible lacquer/sealants I should consider?
> Is cured UV resin, skin safe as is? (post curing it)


I wont use the resing from anycubic its not skin safe and any coating will react with it and will also make it non skin safe. There are special resins for hearing aids but they are expensive.


----------



## vladstef (May 28, 2019)

Sounlink has their first Sonion, more to come for sure. Exciting times. Very good price compared to other shops and I expect it to go down to be similar to Knowles at some point.

https://www.aliexpress.com/store/pr...ml?spm=2114.12010612.8148356.1.41074a82xrW6BV


----------



## dhruvmeena96

That's cheap price for sonion driver


vladstef said:


> Sounlink has their first Sonion, more to come for sure. Exciting times. Very good price compared to other shops and I expect it to go down to be similar to Knowles at some point.
> 
> https://www.aliexpress.com/store/pr...ml?spm=2114.12010612.8148356.1.41074a82xrW6BV


----------



## ivanflo

MuZo2 said:


> There are special resins for hearing aids but they are expensive.



FYI post mostly for the benefit of any fellow Australians who go searching for answers later.

I had queried Dreve on the attainment of products such as Lak 3 in Australia.
They let me know materials - "impression material and direct material" are considered 'Medical Devices'. 

Due to recent changes to Australian law, All 'Medical Device' imports and sales are regulated by the Therapeutic Goods Administration and any importers or producers of said devices must be themselves registered to import said class of device and subsequent products registered. Warnings, fines etc. for non compliance.

In essence, *Home Made - made in Australia* CIEMs that are certifiably '_safe_' are therefore impossible to make. 
Perhaps you might be able to source appropriate materials from an existing registered importer. However this would be in breach of the need to also register the end user product. (This is my interpretation).

There are obviously hearing aid makers and a few CIEM makers here, so i presume they have jumped through the hoops. 
There are also resellers of all the big brands.. so i suppose they too have jumped through the hoops. 
As for the major brands who I assume ship products direct to consumers here... I have to assume they are in breach of our laws, unless they too have gone through the registration process here. 

Having said all that...
Soundlink are accepting orders for hearing aid UV resins shipped to Australia.. so i'm still a little confused.


----------



## eunice

Soundlink, like all other Ali Stores do require the buyer to take care of any import laws, taxes and custom proceedings.

With that said, I do not think selling UV resin and lacquer for home use is prohibited in Australia. If that was the case then why would be able to buy "unsafe" resin for the anicubic printer. Ask @Ivan TT , he is from NZ but I bet due to your trade agreement you will be able to use the same sources.


----------



## ivanflo

eunice said:


> I do not think selling UV resin and lacquer for home use is prohibited in Australia



According to Dreve, Lak 3 in particular is explicitly prohibited as it is classed as a 'medical device'. Soundlink & Mcear unwillingness to ship it down here corroborates this. 

Since we can still get resins here in Australia without trouble, we can assume these are therefore not classes as 'medical devices'. 



eunice said:


> Ask @Ivan TT , he is from NZ but I bet due to your trade agreement you will be able to use the same sources.


Pragmatically this works, someone could just send it over for me or i could skip over and get it myself. Though bringing in an unregistered 'medical device' would be a definite breach re. previously stipulated classing/laws. 

The law applies to devices regardless of their origin.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

ivanflo said:


> FYI post mostly for the benefit of any fellow Australians who go searching for answers later.
> 
> I had queried Dreve on the attainment of products such as Lak 3 in Australia.
> They let me know materials - "impression material and direct material" are considered 'Medical Devices'.
> ...


I have a friend of mine how is living in Australia and is also buying from soundlink(still not sure about lack and stuff)

I think, you can actually get the lacquer and medical grade acrylic, if you also import BA drivers with it and receive the shipping as electronics and electrical component inside.(I mean to say, as in a single pack)

@eunice @Ivan TT

Well, @DannyBouwhuis made a dual RAB with single spout and a FED with spout(FED is spoutless)


I think I can go even more crazy with new design(all because of him)


----------



## ivanflo (May 28, 2019)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> I have a friend of mine how is living in Australia and is also buying from soundlink(still not sure about lack and stuff)
> 
> I think, you can actually get the lacquer and medical grade acrylic, if you also import BA drivers with it and receive the shipping as electronics and electrical component inside.(I mean to say, as in a single pack)
> 
> @eunice @Ivan TT



Dreve have given me the bum steer, and by extension I have passed this bum steer on to this thread. 

They have now told me the raw lacquer is fine to ship, they just won't do it because it is a flammable 'dangerous good'.

Perhaps i should delete my previous posts to clean the thread up a bit.


----------



## DannyBouwhuis (May 29, 2019)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> I have a friend of mine how is living in Australia and is also buying from soundlink(still not sure about lack and stuff)
> 
> I think, you can actually get the lacquer and medical grade acrylic, if you also import BA drivers with it and receive the shipping as electronics and electrical component inside.(I mean to say, as in a single pack)
> 
> ...



I should say that you really need a steady hand for this, getting the snouts of drivers is simple, just get a sharp knife and 'cut them off' this is hard to explain but you'll need some gentle force..

Glueing them back on is tougher, glue the drivers to each other so the sound ports are in the middle, use a bigger spout (hodvtec for example) glue it on both sound ports, make sure you don't get any epoxy in the sound ports (hard part)

I think that by adding spouts you'll decrease the width of the slots (sound port) slightly but I don't think this will be a problem, I'll measure a pair s soon as possible to find out.


----------



## Ivan TT

eunice said:


> @Ivan TT is from NZ, maybe he has an idea.


@ivanflo  G’day mate 
Sorry, can’t help as I am yet to try CIEM making.
But I feel your frustration, all the bloody red tape


----------



## Daedalus1116

What's the lacquer for using to coat ear impressions? Also do you need to coat the cured shells, or is sanding polishing enough?


----------



## Bassiklee (May 29, 2019)

There are a few different ones.

 Dreve has Lak3, plus another one that gets mentioned here sometimes. I believe it's called Fotoscreen.

Egger LP/H, or something similar.

Pro3Dure has one as well.

In my experience,  Egger is the only one of those three that doesn't yellow when curing.

As for sanding and polishing a monitor made from a good resin like Fotoplast,  that works well too.  The lacquers are a bit faster.

It seems I misread that first part,  about coating the ear impressions.  I have some of that.  It works better than wax for me.  Lately,  I've been doing something differently in that regard.


----------



## MuZo2

Anyone know about Sonion’s electrostatic tweeters ? seems lot of IEMs are using it now.


----------



## DannyBouwhuis

MuZo2 said:


> Anyone know about Sonion’s electrostatic tweeters ? seems lot of IEMs are using it now.



I bought a pair last week, most amazing highs I've ever heard, so detailed and clear.. I can pm you some info if you need


----------



## MuZo2

DannyBouwhuis said:


> I bought a pair last week, most amazing highs I've ever heard, so detailed and clear.. I can pm you some info if you need


Where did you buy it, how are you using it combined with BA for bass or DD?


----------



## DannyBouwhuis (May 29, 2019)

MuZo2 said:


> Where did you buy it, how are you using it combined with BA for bass or DD?



I mailed a supplier and I was lucky enough that they let me buy a pair 
I paired them with a fed 30048 and two raf drivers in series. Just for testing,It needed tuning but it gave me an impression how it would sound and I loved it. The SPL of the est is a bit low  though ,like 90db unlike a swfk which is around 10db higher


----------



## Ivan TT (May 29, 2019)

So I built RAB/RAF (55ohm + 2.2uF zobel, green damper) set, tuning cloth removed on both.
Most fascinating result, RAB (32257) and RAF combine very gracefully, complementing each other qualities (resolution for RAB, extension and vividness for RAF).
It delivers all the benefits of multi driver BA set up without downside of crossovers and associated colouration which bothers me a lot.
Bass slams really hard, better than TF10, BS5 or 6, basshead in me is very happy 


Spoiler



This track in particular, those little synth stabs just jump at you and when the bass drops... yay!




Compared to dual RAF the sound is cleaner and more analytical, but a bit less musical/engaging, dual RAF is a king here! Dual RAB is simply not even in the same league, unless classical music is your doom.
Interestingly enough dual RAF sounds better with 22Ohm resistor in series, while low output Z is better suited for RAB/RAF combination, go figure.


----------



## wolkegeist

Quick question, where do you guys get the steel nozzle for iem? I’m digging through taobao and ali but doesn’t have any luck.


----------



## Ivan TT

wolkegeist said:


> Quick question, where do you guys get the steel nozzle for iem? I’m digging through taobao and ali but doesn’t have any luck.


https://m.intl.taobao.com/detail/detail.html?id=560131088665
https://m.intl.taobao.com/detail/detail.html?id=565129690783


----------



## Kulgrinda

Ivan TT said:


> So I built RAB/RAF (55ohm + 2.2uF zobel, green damper) set, tuning cloth removed on both.
> Most fascinating result, RAB (32257) and RAF combine very gracefully, complementing each other qualities (resolution for RAB, extension and vividness for RAF).
> It delivers all the benefits of multi driver BA set up without downside of crossovers and associated colouration which bothers me a lot.
> Bass slams really hard, better than TF10, BS5 or 6, basshead in me is very happy
> ...



I want to try it, I have the drivers  Do you wire them series or parallel?


----------



## Ivan TT

Kulgrinda said:


> I want to try it, I have the drivers  Do you wire them series or parallel?


Sorry, should have mentioned that.
Series.
Let us know how it all went and impressions about the sound please too!


----------



## Kulgrinda

Ivan TT said:


> Sorry, should have mentioned that.
> Series.
> Let us know how it all went and impressions about the sound please too!


Will do! I still have several combinations I want to test but cannot find enough time..


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Ivan TT said:


> Interestingly enough dual RAF sounds better with 22Ohm resistor in series, while low output Z is better suited for RAB/RAF combination, go figure.




Well....can you tell me about Z(are you referring impedance)

Do you mean parallel and then 22ohms, combined with zobel in end.

??????

Or you mean series, with 22ohms and Zobel in between.


Confused???


----------



## Ivan TT (May 30, 2019)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Well....can you tell me about Z(are you referring impedance)
> 
> Do you mean parallel and then 22ohms, combined with zobel in end.
> 
> ...


Yes, Z is a symbol for impedance.
The drivers are in series, zobel circuit is connected in parallel to the drivers (or to mmcx terminal + and - to avoid any doubt).
22Ohm resistor is between amp’s output and positive terminal, so it is in series with the drivers.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Ivan TT said:


> Yes, Z is a symbol for impedance.
> The drivers are in series, zobel circuit is connected in parallel to the drivers (or to mmcx terminal + and - to avoid any doubt).
> 22Ohm resistor is between amp’s output and positive terminal, so it is in series with the drivers.


You were also talking about polarity once.... Is there something we have to touch or is it normal series driver stacked against one another.


----------



## Ivan TT

dhruvmeena96 said:


> You were also talking about polarity once.... Is there something we have to touch or is it normal series driver stacked against one another.


Drivers are glued together and connected in series. Assembly is housed in stretched tube (similar to how spout-less drivers are often used), extending about 4mm over spouts and 2mm ID tube glued in.
So yes, normal drivers connected in series, normal polarity.
Sorry, don’t have recent photos and shells are glued tight.


----------



## wardy

Okay so with my first pair on inears behind me, I now know full well I can build them however wanted to ask some advice about making 'perfect' shells.


My first pair were not smooth and I want to kinda go for the mirror finish that companies pull off. 
Can you give me some advice? I will also be using the proper products by Dreve

Cheers


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Ivan TT said:


> Drivers are glued together and connected in series. Assembly is housed in stretched tube (similar to how spout-less drivers are often used), extending about 4mm over spouts and 2mm ID tube glued in.
> So yes, normal drivers connected in series, normal polarity.
> Sorry, don’t have recent photos and shells are glued tight.


I went dual RAF series + zobel + 22 ohms

And dual RAF parallel + 55ohm resistor + new zobel( Cz = 0.6uF{220nF parallel combo} and 83ohm resistor)

2mm ID tube was stretched so that the two nozzle comes in place.

RAF-series : ohh....this is dynamic level bass. It is a balanced v-shape with endless bass extension. Going deeper than CI, if not quantity.
Mids have this nice decay, which places it backward and is more textured.
Treble is smooth and snappy but rolls off quickly.
It sounds more enjoyable

No hint of slowing down


RAF-new parallel : tamed bass, forward mids but way more resolved(the series was textured). Best part is that it has very amazing treble response. It sounds more effortless and speedier than RAF-series


----------



## eunice

wardy said:


> Okay so with my first pair on inears behind me, I now know full well I can build them however wanted to ask some advice about making 'perfect' shells.
> 
> 
> My first pair were not smooth and I want to kinda go for the mirror finish that companies pull off.
> ...



Lacquer process in short: 1) build shell using Dreve, egger or pro3dure resin. 2) sand 3) apply lacquer, wait for the lacquer to spread evenly (some use rotating machines for this) and then cure again. If the lacquer still feels sticky, it’s not fully cured yet. 

No lacquer process 1) and 2) like above. 3) sand with fine grit 4) polish with rubber wheel 5) polish with leather wheel 6) polish with Dreve polishing wax.

My results with lacquer look a little better, but I get the better feeling finish and better fit with the polishing wax. I am still working on improving my lacquer skills, will try dipping in lacquer some time in the future.


----------



## alanwcruz

wardy said:


> Okay so with my first pair on inears behind me, I now know full well I can build them however wanted to ask some advice about making 'perfect' shells.
> 
> 
> My first pair were not smooth and I want to kinda go for the mirror finish that companies pull off.
> ...



Patience, a lot of patience! Getting the mirror finish with completely clear shells is all about making sure everything is completely cured, depending on your UV light source the exposure time varies, don't rush, let everything cure, pour your acrylic and cure, take out excess liquid acrylic and cure, fill with glycerin and cure, dip entire shell in glycerin and cure again, it all counts when you want great looking professional results.


----------



## alanwcruz

Here's another scary build I made this past weekend, much easier if you use a PCB but still very hard to fit everything with small ears.


----------



## DannyBouwhuis

alanwcruz said:


> Here's another scary build I made this past weekend, much easier if you use a PCB but still very hard to fit everything with small ears.



I'm deeply impressed, that looks amazing !
Its almost like the shell is filled, so clear. It isn't right ? 
Where did you buy the pcbs ? I've been looking but I can't find em anywhere..


----------



## alanwcruz

DannyBouwhuis said:


> I'm deeply impressed, that looks amazing !
> Its almost like the shell is filled, so clear. It isn't right ?
> Where did you buy the pcbs ? I've been looking but I can't find em anywhere..



It's not, however the shell was poured with the components inside the mold, I tried making the shells first as I normally would but I just couldn't get everything to fit this way, direct pour was the only way to go.

For the PCB, I send the design here https://jlcpcb.com/ and they build it for me, I use https://easyeda.com/ to make the design, then it's just about soldering the SMD's onto the PCB.


----------



## Squirg

MuZo2 said:


> Anyone know about Sonion’s electrostatic tweeters ? seems lot of IEMs are using it now.




Ive been curious about the new Tweeters from Sonion so I reached out to them and this is what the Rep had to say...
The EST extends the bandwidth past human hearing.  There is not much music above 8k or so… but there are harmonics well past 20k.  The EST helps the earphone present the harmonics correctly… so actually the notes (the fundamentals) sound more true.  A piano sounds more like a piano and so on. 


The tweeter is nearly mass-less… so it is very difficult to use.  You have to have the plumbing be just right.  If not… there is no reason to use it… because none of the high frequencies will make it out the end of the ear tip.  Calibrated test equipment good past 8k is a must (and few of our customers have this). 


The usual design cycle goes something like this:



I got the samples but they don’t work
Send better samples
I kept working with it and now I have some output…. This sucks
Something is wrong

About two thirds of the people quit.  About one third go on



Getting some HF output, but need more output
Padded mids… got the tubing right…
IT WORKS… oh my… I have never heard anything sound so good. 
Hope this sheds some light!

I honestly don’t know where this product will end up.  About 70% of people fail (but not because of the product… because of test equipment, skill level, luck, etc).


----------



## Squirg

Squirg said:


> Ive been curious about the new Tweeters from Sonion so I reached out to them and this is what the Rep had to say...
> The EST extends the bandwidth past human hearing.  There is not much music above 8k or so… but there are harmonics well past 20k.  The EST helps the earphone present the harmonics correctly… so actually the notes (the fundamentals) sound more true.  A piano sounds more like a piano and so on.
> 
> 
> ...




He also said this:  
The electrostatic we have is an engineering marvel.  Works without a bias voltage.  Has HF output to nearly 200k Hz.  The output is low… but the output is well behaved (smooth frequency response with limited phase shift).  In a properly designed earphone… the results can be breathtaking.


But for every earphone that’s done right… there is another earphone out there that has been done wrong.  Very often a properly designed single driver universal fit can sound better than a custom shell three driver three way done wrong.  There are people out there who think they can engineer something by force of will… if they wish hard enough their earphone will be better.  There are no shortcuts.  Design test listen test listen re-design… and so on.  Tweak every part until it works the way it should.  The electrostat follows the same rules only twice as hard to use.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Squirg said:


> Ive been curious about the new Tweeters from Sonion so I reached out to them and this is what the Rep had to say...
> The EST extends the bandwidth past human hearing.  There is not much music above 8k or so… but there are harmonics well past 20k.  The EST helps the earphone present the harmonics correctly… so actually the notes (the fundamentals) sound more true.  A piano sounds more like a piano and so on.
> 
> 
> ...





Squirg said:


> He also said this:
> The electrostatic we have is an engineering marvel.  Works without a bias voltage.  Has HF output to nearly 200k Hz.  The output is low… but the output is well behaved (smooth frequency response with limited phase shift).  In a properly designed earphone… the results can be breathtaking.
> 
> 
> But for every earphone that’s done right… there is another earphone out there that has been done wrong.  Very often a properly designed single driver universal fit can sound better than a custom shell three driver three way done wrong.  There are people out there who think they can engineer something by force of will… if they wish hard enough their earphone will be better.  There are no shortcuts.  Design test listen test listen re-design… and so on.  Tweak every part until it works the way it should.  The electrostat follows the same rules only twice as hard to use.


Already tried it...


The biggest advantage is not extension as said by sonion rep, but the effortlessness in producing details and the ability of not rolling off.

It feels more airier and more snappier compared to SWFK


----------



## bvng3540

Where did you guys buy the materials to cast your ears mold


----------



## archdawg (May 31, 2019)

Squirg said:


> But for every earphone that’s done right… there is another earphone out there that has been done wrong.  Very often a properly designed single driver universal fit can sound better than a custom shell three driver three way done wrong.


Amen to that. Needless to mention that it's the same story with loudspeakers.



> There are people out there who think they can engineer something by force of will… if they wish hard enough their earphone will be better.  There are no shortcuts.  Design test listen test listen re-design… and so on.  Tweak every part until it works the way it should.


Amen #2. My way with custom IEMs (and modding/tuning standard phones) is to work on two or three copies at a time - think of control/study copy. In case of two copies just mod one aspect on one copy at a time, take your measurements and enough time to listen to the differences between the two. If you like the result move on to the next step, if not reverse the last step if possible and try something else etc...
(Back in the day I made a list of parameters (clarity, warmth, sibilance, spatial factors, etc....) that still comes in handy when I'm modding stuff - taking notes helps me a lot ... YMMV.)


----------



## alanwcruz

bvng3540 said:


> Where did you guys buy the materials to cast your ears mold



I use Knox gelatin with glycerin.


----------



## Kulgrinda

@Ivan TT

So I made 2xRAF in series with zobel, green filter and dampening cloth removed. It sounds terrible! Very this, no bass what so ever, there were even more bass with the cloth in place. I wonder why so? Maybe I've used wrong zobel figures? I had 81 Ohm resistor and 2x4.7 uF capacitors in series what should be around 2.3 uF in total.


----------



## Ivan TT (May 31, 2019)

Kulgrinda said:


> @Ivan TT
> 
> So I made 2xRAF in series with zobel, green filter and dampening cloth removed. It sounds terrible! Very this, no bass what so ever, there were even more bass with the cloth in place. I wonder why so? Maybe I've used wrong zobel figures? I had 81 Ohm resistor and 2x4.7 uF capacitors in series what should be around 2.3 uF in total.


Insure that the drivers are wired correctly (not out of phase), and that tubing is tight (no leaks and good seal).
Maybe post some photos?
Or feel free to PM me and we”ll troubleshoot it


----------



## eunice

@Ivan TT before I run into the same trouble, how large is the volume inside the shell? Could you approx it? I bet with cloth removed the volume ‚behind‘ the drivers is very relevant.


----------



## Ivan TT (May 31, 2019)

eunice said:


> @Ivan TT before I run into the same trouble, how large is the volume inside the shell? Could you approx it? I bet with cloth removed the volume ‚behind‘ the drivers is very relevant.


Not sure about the volume, I'd say just under 1CC.

Application note #2 in datasheet, back volume should not be less than 0.02CC (or LF response will suffer)
https://www.knowles.com/docs/defaul...ech-specsefe21a731dff6ddbb37cff0000940c19.pdf

The shells I'm using (and I think you have) are vented by the way, check last photo here:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Aip...-10mm-Headphone-Speaker-Unit/32901513991.html

I recently built a x2 RAF set in another shell and bass was... not there, the issue was leaking between tubing in the nozzle and IEM's cavity, also had similar issue due to lack of seal of tubing over BA's spouts (or through boundary of 2 BA's glued together with tubing over 2 spouts). So I developed a habit to apply B7000 liberally as a sealant, it is easy to remove if things go wrong.

So from my experience airtight seal isolating driver's output and ear canal from IEM's cavity is essential for good bass response.


----------



## eunice

thank you, yes I have them. I guess I will try with them first, for comparison


----------



## Kulgrinda (Jun 1, 2019)

Ivan TT said:


> Insure that the drivers are wired correctly (not out of phase), and that tubing is tight (no leaks and good seal).
> Maybe post some photos?
> Or feel free to PM me and we”ll troubleshoot it


Thanks for the tips. It was the seal at the sound outlet that was causing thin bass. I use a regular shell for testing my setups. Shell is duplicated from KZ ZSR and adjusted a bit to better fit. I would glue the tubing at the sound outlet with UV glue to keep it in place and then cover remaining space with tacky material bought in office supplies (not sure how it is called in English). The same goes for the back side of the earphone. That way I get the full listening experience and can still easily break the setup and adjust something.

When it comes to 2xRAF I found it quite dark sounding. This is ok for some kinds of music, but I would prefer more open and articulate sound. I tried this setup with brown filter as well but there was not much of the change coming from green one.


----------



## Ivan TT

Kulgrinda said:


> Thanks for the tips.


Happy to be of service 


Kulgrinda said:


> When it comes to 2xRAF I found it quite dark sounding. This is ok for some kinds of music, but I would prefer more open and articulate sound. I tried this setup with brown filter as well but there was not much of the change coming from green one.


Fascinating... 
I have been wondering for some time if our impressions re: sound (and differences) are due to variations in designs/implementations or personal sonic signature preferences?
For me x2 RAF is too bright with anything but green or even red dampers, and the difference between dampers is massive (green being clear winner).
By the way, try making a horn by terminating tube few mm short of nozzle's end, I sometimes dremel tubing out a bit to give it horn-like shape and push damper in to form more or less uniform horn, it improves HF (for me, at least).


----------



## ForceMajeure

Kulgrinda said:


> Thanks for the tips. It was the seal at the sound outlet that was causing thin bass. I use a regular shell for testing my setups. Shell is duplicated from KZ ZSR and adjusted a bit to better fit. I would glue the tubing at the sound outlet with UV glue to keep it in place and then cover remaining space with tacky material bought in office supplies (not sure hot it is called in English). The same goes for the back side of the earphone. That way I get the full listening experience and can still easily break the setup and adjust something.
> 
> When it comes to 2xRAF I found it quite dark sounding. This is ok for some kinds of music, but I would prefer more open and articulate sound. I tried this setup with brown filter as well but there was not much of the change coming from green one.


I use the "bluetack technique" for temporarily seal faceplates as well haha


----------



## Kulgrinda

Ivan TT said:


> Happy to be of service
> 
> Fascinating...
> I have been wondering for some time if our impressions re: sound (and differences) are due to variations in designs/implementations or personal sonic signature preferences?
> ...



Yeah, we hear very differently.. I noticed this at our local headphone enthusiast meeting when somebody would say about some headphones "what a nice and balance sounding headphone" and I could not even listen to them because they are way too bright and sibilant So I kind of gave up on generalizing sound signature, it is very much your preference and hearing dependent. 

I found it is very easy to stretch tubing by using tweezers. I have a pair that is kind of stiff, so I would squeeze them, put them into tubing and heat tube with the lighter. Force from the tweezers would stretch the tube quite uniformly.


----------



## Kulgrinda

ForceMajeure said:


> I use the "bluetack technique" for temporarily seal faceplates as well haha


it works very well  I use this stuff for many applications when building IEMs. 

I also found UV Visbella glue to be really good. It is very easy to dose, it does not smell, hardens in 30 s to near-plastic stiffness and is easily removable from metal. And it comes with tiny UV light that is really helpful for spot curing.

Post sponsored by...


----------



## RAFAEL DOUGLAS MARTINS (Jun 1, 2019)

Hi everyone, I would like to have a help, I am looking to buy a measuring device, can you tell if this equipment serves to measure as IEMs? , because it works from 250 hz to 8kz, because in several videos I see companies use something similar, as it apparently works, the device calls AudioScan RM500, someone can share their experience, and if it's worth buying this equipment?


----------



## IvanNOON

PSA: Knowles vs Bellsing CI-22955

Bellsing has 2-3dB less bass; mids and highs are similar in level, but different peaks
Because of this Bellsing sounds a bit more neutral (flatter FR)
Also, centertap on Bellsing doesn't work.

Overall not bad considering the price, but not a direct replacement.


----------



## wolkegeist

Has anyone try to mimic the Apex module from 64 audio? It seems to be a venting hole with some sort of damping to a shares chamber. But I wonder how is that gonna work if they have separated sound tubes?


----------



## eunice

It's about equalizing pressure between the ear canal and the outside world, so they probably use a tube or opening just for that.


----------



## RAFAEL DOUGLAS MARTINS

eunice said:


> Here is my measurement.
> 
> Don't mind the absolute values as I have accidentally reduced the input volume of my measurement mic.
> 
> If you add some dampers you will flatten out the peak and get an immensely good sounding headphone. With Zobel it's a lot better than the GV.




Hi, I have found this incredible measurement, I have been trying for a long time to make a measuring equipment, but I was not able to do it, could  help, what microphone you use to measure, which audio card and the program used in  photo above, or if it is a proper equipment, I have long tried to do, could help my friend, I would be grateful


----------



## eunice

RAFAEL DOUGLAS MARTINS said:


> Hi, I have found this incredible measurement, I have been trying for a long time to make a measuring equipment, but I was not able to do it, could  help, what microphone you use to measure, which audio card and the program used in  photo above, or if it is a proper equipment, I have long tried to do, could help my friend, I would be grateful


I use an UMIK-1 calibrated USB microphone (~100€), a transparent PVC with 12mm ID from the garden shop and a 3D-printed adapter. The air volume inside the tube is calculated to be 2ccm. The software I use is room eq wizard, it's free and open source.

If you want to know more, search for 2cc coupler in this thread.


----------



## Choy Wei De

Hi everyone, I finally make a RAB-p!
I decide to go with exact Zobel value, 4.6uf and 41ohm. It improved the sound so much.

Has anyone tried using 4.7uf and 39ohm instead? Because in order to get the exact values, I use 3 capacitors and 2 resistors. Hopefully can reduce to just 1 capacitor and 1 resistor.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Kulgrinda said:


> Thanks for the tips. It was the seal at the sound outlet that was causing thin bass. I use a regular shell for testing my setups. Shell is duplicated from KZ ZSR and adjusted a bit to better fit. I would glue the tubing at the sound outlet with UV glue to keep it in place and then cover remaining space with tacky material bought in office supplies (not sure how it is called in English). The same goes for the back side of the earphone. That way I get the full listening experience and can still easily break the setup and adjust something.
> 
> When it comes to 2xRAF I found it quite dark sounding. This is ok for some kinds of music, but I would prefer more open and articulate sound. I tried this setup with brown filter as well but there was not much of the change coming from green one.


I use brown damper near the BA.

It effects where you put the damper too.

Green for me was roll offed but not darker. It was smooth.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

RAFAEL DOUGLAS MARTINS said:


> Hi everyone, I would like to have a help, I am looking to buy a measuring device, can you tell if this equipment serves to measure as IEMs? , because it works from 250 hz to 8kz, because in several videos I see companies use something similar, as it apparently works, the device calls AudioScan RM500, someone can share their experience, and if it's worth buying this equipment?


Overkill setup but nice.
This is used for hearing aids


I use GRAS coupler for my hearing aids.


----------



## RAFAEL DOUGLAS MARTINS

eunice said:


> I use an UMIK-1 calibrated USB microphone (~100€), a transparent PVC with 12mm ID from the garden shop and a 3D-printed adapter. The air volume inside the tube is calculated to be 2ccm. The software I use is room eq wizard, it's free and open source.
> 
> If you want to know more, search for 2cc coupler in this thread.




Thanks for the answer, I'm going to run behind to be able to buy this microphone, I'm very grateful to share your experience, would you like to ask another question, the microphone you use the program already recognize direct ?, the phone you connect in the handset output Do you hear the notebook's audio card? , do you need to program the room eq wizard program to let it work properly or does it work normally?


----------



## RAFAEL DOUGLAS MARTINS

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Overkill setup but nice.
> This is used for hearing aids
> 
> 
> I use GRAS coupler for my hearing aids.




Thanks for the reply, but it is not used to measure EMIs, only hearing aids, and it is possible to adjust to measure IEMs.


----------



## RAFAEL DOUGLAS MARTINS

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Overkill setup but nice.
> This is used for hearing aids
> 
> 
> I use GRAS coupler for my hearing aids.




it is possible to use this coupling microphone and the cc2 of this device, sorry many questions because I am new in this, very difficult


----------



## eunice

RAFAEL DOUGLAS MARTINS said:


> Thanks for the answer, I'm going to run behind to be able to buy this microphone, I'm very grateful to share your experience, would you like to ask another question, the microphone you use the program already recognize direct ?, the phone you connect in the handset output Do you hear the notebook's audio card? , do you need to program the room eq wizard program to let it work properly or does it work normally?


The microphone is a usb microphone, if you connect it it will show up as a normal sound input on your computer, just like any regular audio input device.

If you have room eq wizard running it will recognize the microphone and ask you for a calibration file. You can download the calibration file from the vendors website with the serial number of your device.

For the output you can use any headphone output of your computer. I use my dragonfly black usb DAC but you can also use your computers headphone out.

Roomeqwizard will generate the test tones and record from the microphone. This is how it can generate frequency response and impulse response graphs. RoomEqWizard can also generate an impedance graph, for that you do not need the microphone, just a headphone out, a line in and an impedance ‚jig‘ (basically some wiring and a resistor, schematics on their website). You can even let RoomEqWizard calculate the Thiele Small Parameter, although i have not yet tried if it produces meaningful values for IEM, as it is meant to be used for speakers. 

Simulation is still on my to do list, but as you said: so much to learn. This is a very deep rabbit hole, but a rewarding one at that.


----------



## IvanNOON

Choy Wei De said:


> Hi everyone, I finally make a RAB-p!
> I decide to go with exact Zobel value, 4.6uf and 41ohm. It improved the sound so much.
> 
> Has anyone tried using 4.7uf and 39ohm instead? Because in order to get the exact values, I use 3 capacitors and 2 resistors. Hopefully can reduce to just 1 capacitor and 1 resistor.


I tried 39ohm, it's a bit too damped for my taste. I'm currently using 43ohm because I like my highs a bit sharper


----------



## dhruvmeena96

eunice said:


> The microphone is a usb microphone, if you connect it it will show up as a normal sound input on your computer, just like any regular audio input device.
> 
> If you have room eq wizard running it will recognize the microphone and ask you for a calibration file. You can download the calibration file from the vendors website with the serial number of your device.
> 
> ...


As he said
@RAFAEL DOUGLAS MARTINS


----------



## Choy Wei De

IvanNOON said:


> I tried 39ohm, it's a bit too damped for my taste. I'm currently using 43ohm because I like my highs a bit sharper



You tried 4.6uf with 39ohm?
Which frequency does 4.6uf start to cut?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Choy Wei De said:


> You tried 4.6uf with 39ohm?
> Which frequency does 4.6uf start to cut?


The issue ain't 4.6uF but 39ohms .
You can go with 4.6uF too.

But lower resistance means heavy damping which from capacitor which make treble lifeless.
More resistance means less roll off from capacitance and can also be used to increase treble. But please remain near the ideal value as the impedance can get weird by weird resistance values.

39ohms sound darker
41 ohms sounds like stock
43 ohms sound like viperaudio natural treble boost 3.5dB


----------



## IvanNOON

Choy Wei De said:


> You tried 4.6uf with 39ohm?
> Which frequency does 4.6uf start to cut?


Just like Dhruv said, 4.6 vs 4.7uF doesn't impact sound as much as resistance

To my ears:
39ohms sound dark
41 ohms sounds a bit relaxed
43 ohms sound like reference


----------



## dhruvmeena96

IvanNOON said:


> Just like Dhruv said, 4.6 vs 4.7uF doesn't impact sound as much as resistance
> 
> To my ears:
> 39ohms sound dark
> ...


True, capacitor won't do that big of sound change if it is near reference value. 
The resistor can change the sound. Resistor is there to uplift or resisit what the capacitor is rolling off. Lower resistor means, higher capacitor effect and higher resistance means lower capacitor effect.

0ohm resistance = capacitor low pass


----------



## Caluub (Jun 7, 2019)

I'm working on an MASM2 build in a universal shell and I have the drivers and zobel configured but I can't figure out how anyone has been able to fit the two 3mm OD tubes into a universal shell. The only way I can get them to fit requires that they be squeezed to the point that the tubes are flattened and oval shaped. 

I can stretch a 3mmID tube over the two of them but I still end up with squished tubes. I don't know if this is acceptable or if it will cause any noticeable problems.


----------



## Choy Wei De

Caluub said:


> I'm working on an MASM2 build in a universal shell and I have the drivers and zobel configured but I can't figure out how anyone has been able to fit the two 3mm OD tubes into a universal shell. The only way I can get them to fit requires that they be squeezed to the point that the tubes are flattened and oval shaped.
> 
> I can stretch a 3mmID tube over the two of them but I still end up with squished tubes. I don't know if this is acceptable or if it will cause any noticeable problems.



I manage to fit two 3.2mm OD into the shell. But I need to do something quite different. Instead of glueing the tube to the drivers and try very hard to fit through the nozzle. Feed the tube through the nozzle from the outside.

Then you do have to change the way you measure and put in damper. Lastly, do a marking of where you want to cut the tube and slowly put the tube out from the nozzle and cut it.





Try doing all that without drivers, your nozzle ID probably need to be 4.0mm~5.0mm ID. My nozzle OD is 5.2mm.


----------



## phrancini

I finally received all the materials needed and got my set of impressions done.
Since this is my first time doing this I don't know if those are good or I should retake them. Is there anybody that can tell me if the impressions will work and willing to help me with the cut?
here are some photos.

Thanks in advance


----------



## ForceMajeure (Jun 8, 2019)

phrancini said:


> I finally received all the materials needed and got my set of impressions done.
> Since this is my first time doing this I don't know if those are good or I should retake them. Is there anybody that can tell me if the impressions will work and willing to help me with the cut?
> here are some photos.
> 
> Thanks in advance


that right ear canal looks iffy. either this is your real shape or the "sponge" wasn't pushed in deep and/or not enough material filled the canal with the syringe before moving out to the outer ear.
although you could get away with this, having some kind of a shallow fit.
I would suggest retrying having a better impression taken and see if you can get a fuller and longer canal (you will need to trim it around the second bend anyway, but at least you'd have a good thickness). currently this could narrow your ability to fit more bores there.

it's always hard to judge impressions from pictures no matter how many pictures at different angles are taken. it might be different in real life and end up being ok. but from what I am seeing there might be an issue with the right canal


----------



## Choy Wei De

I'm going to share my experience and findings when making Savant with Sonion 2354 to replace ED 29689.

Before this I don't have the drivers nor the shells needed to make Savant. I only have universal shell that can fit one 3.2mm OD tube. But I want to make sure that I can really stretch a 2.0mm ID tube over ED 3076. As I only has 2.0mm ID and 3.2mm OD on hand, so I use that instead. It is very tight fit. I think it works fine because I don't want to have any leakage but I still very scare the nozzle will crack and break. Then i need to figure out a way to stretch the tube over ED30761. I saw a allen key set on my table and the idea just came in mind. I forced the #3 size allen key, probably is 3mm in diameter, into the tube, use a lighter to soften and expand the tube. After heating up and cooling down a few times, I changed thing up by changing to #4 allen key and repeat again. I also tried using #5 allen key, but I can't manage it fit inside the tube so I end with #4. The tube fit nicely over ED29689. So I placed my order for savant, and also order 2.0mm ID and 2.5mm OD tube. Somehow it didn't cross my mind to order 2.0mm ID and 3.0mm OD.

Fast forward to when my items were delivered. I can't fit #4 allen key into the 2.5mm OD tube. I regretted that I didn't order 3.0mm OD. But I just use 3.2mm OD instead. Since I'm using 3.2mm OD instead, I decide to fit the tube through the nozzle first before attaching to the drivers. I fit the tubes from outside of the nozzle in to the shell. And I use the usual method to stretch my tubes. However I made a mistake. I was using so much force to hold/squeeze the ED30761 into the tube, I accidentally make a very slight gradual dent onto my driver. It's not the kind when you hit a nail onto a aluminium sheet. It's like a concave make up mirror that is slightly curved inwards to expand the reflection. I thought it would affect the sound much, but i was wrong. The bass is not even comparable to RAP-p. The mid is much louder than the bass, and the overall volume is louder. I though that is how it should sound. So I approached @dhruvmeena96 for suggestions. He suggested change the 20ohm on 2354 to 22ohm, adding 20ohm to the whole circuit and reinforce the seal around the tube. After that the whole volume dropped significantly, but the bass is still not there.

So I decide to use my Dayton imm-6 mic and Audiotool app on ios and do some measurements. The ED30761 indeed is really not working properly. I tested it further by desolder ED30761 and test it again. It confirmed the bad news. I can't physically test out that set because of that problem. But I manage to get the measurements.

Green is RAB 32257 with zobel, Teal is Savant Right side, Orange is Savant Left side (not working properly)



I'll be making some RAB-p for my friends to recover some of my cost. And get my Savant fix. At the same time explore MASM and other dual driver setup like dual RAB, dual RAF or hybrid RAF + RAF. Anyone has suggestions? Need some insights.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jun 9, 2019)

Choy Wei De said:


> I'm going to share my experience and findings when making Savant with Sonion 2354 to replace ED 29689.
> 
> Before this I don't have the drivers nor the shells needed to make Savant. I only have universal shell that can fit one 3.2mm OD tube. But I want to make sure that I can really stretch a 2.0mm ID tube over ED 3076. As I only has 2.0mm ID and 3.2mm OD on hand, so I use that instead. It is very tight fit. I think it works fine because I don't want to have any leakage but I still very scare the nozzle will crack and break. Then i need to figure out a way to stretch the tube over ED30761. I saw a allen key set on my table and the idea just came in mind. I forced the #3 size allen key, probably is 3mm in diameter, into the tube, use a lighter to soften and expand the tube. After heating up and cooling down a few times, I changed thing up by changing to #4 allen key and repeat again. I also tried using #5 allen key, but I can't manage it fit inside the tube so I end with #4. The tube fit nicely over ED29689. So I placed my order for savant, and also order 2.0mm ID and 2.5mm OD tube. Somehow it didn't cross my mind to order 2.0mm ID and 3.0mm OD.
> 
> ...


Much more distinctive graph


Green is RAB-p
Blue is Savant pro(sonion 2354)

RAB-p resonator and horn is able to control the region between 2kHz and 8kHz with some good treble extension.
Zobel prevents the rising inductance, so treble dont fall dead stop like the savant(electrical phase was suddenly 135degree in treble). RAB-p falls of naturally due linear electrical phase curve.


----------



## phrancini

ForceMajeure said:


> that right ear canal looks iffy. either this is your real shape or the "sponge" wasn't pushed in deep and/or not enough material filled the canal with the syringe before moving out to the outer ear.
> although you could get away with this, having some kind of a shallow fit.
> I would suggest retrying having a better impression taken and see if you can get a fuller and longer canal (you will need to trim it around the second bend anyway, but at least you'd have a good thickness). currently this could narrow your ability to fit more bores there.
> 
> it's always hard to judge impressions from pictures no matter how many pictures at different angles are taken. it might be different in real life and end up being ok. but from what I am seeing there might be an issue with the right canal



I suspected that. I'll be getting it redone as soon as I can 

I'll be trying to cut it anyway, at least I can practise a bit.


----------



## Caluub

Has anyone tried using a vibratory tumbler to smooth their shells prior to lacquering? I'm thinking about picking a cheap 5lb tumbler from Harbor Freight and a high grit media to try it out.


----------



## Mart.oporto

Hello!
I'm getting tired of my GVs, although I love the sound they produce. I have seen that you are talking a lot about the project of Ivan TT "Bellsing 6 + Zobel" and I have several questions that I hope someone is encouraged to answer:

1- Is this the best project we have so far in the forum? If it is not, what is the best audiophile project that we have? I'm sorry, I've only proven Knowles GV.

2- What does Zobel mean? Is it only composed of 2 resistors and 1 capacitor? If it is composed in another way, could someone explain it to me?

3- What are the recommended capacitors and resistors for this project? I bought in Argentina to make a "Three Ways" but the pieces were very large.

Thanks everyone!


----------



## eunice

1) It's the best I have built so far, a few pages back I have written detailed sound impressions.

2) Zobel is one resistor and capacitor in parallel to the driver.

3) Use 1206 or 0805 SMD ceramic caps and 1206 or 0805 SMD resistors. 1206 are larger and easier to solder. The SMD ceramic caps have tolerances of around 10% so you should use a capacitance meter to measure actual capacitance and select two similar caps.

You can also use tantalum caps, but they are polarized and you should solder two of them with doubled capacitance in series with polarity reversed. There is a long discussion about that on earlier pages too.


----------



## eunice

Caluub said:


> Has anyone tried using a vibratory tumbler to smooth their shells prior to lacquering? I'm thinking about picking a cheap 5lb tumbler from Harbor Freight and a high grit media to try it out.


Sanding is not only for roughing up/smoothing the surface but also to remove any bumps and edges that might feel bad in the ear. You have to carefully sand to do that, that's not possible in a tumbler. So you could try sand it smooth and then put in a tumbler, but my guess is the tumbler will sand too much on protruding parts like the ear canal and too little on other parts of the IEM.
I don't think it will really help you, but try it and tell us


----------



## Mart.oporto

eunice said:


> 1) It's the best I have built so far, a few pages back I have written detailed sound impressions.
> 
> 2) Zobel is one resistor and capacitor in parallel to the driver.
> 
> ...


I appreciate your answer! Right now I'm going to see everything I need on Aliexpress. If you or someone who reads this has pictures of how the electronics were finished, I would appreciate it if you can share with me since I am not good at this, but listening to music hahaha. Thank you huge!


eunice said:


> 1) It's the best I have built so far, a few pages back I have written detailed sound impressions.
> 
> 2) Zobel is one resistor and capacitor in parallel to the driver.
> 
> ...


----------



## eunice (Jun 10, 2019)

This is Bellsing 6 + Zobeled just soldered. Two tantalum caps in series with opposite polarity and two resistors to achieve the desired resistance.

Sorry for bad quality, it's what I have right now.


----------



## Mart.oporto

eunice said:


> This is Bellsing 6 + Zobeled just soldered. Two tantalum caps in series with opposite polarity and two resistors to achieve the desired resistance.
> 
> Sorry for bad quality, it's what I have right now.


I see that in the scheme you did it says "resistor 25 ohms" and "capacitor 22 microfarads". Is this part of the final idea? Because I read that some speak of a "new zobel".


----------



## eunice (Jun 10, 2019)

There have been few pictures of finished IEMs lately.




Spoiler: So here are some Pics


----------



## eunice

Mart.oporto said:


> I see that in the scheme you did it says "resistor 25 ohms" and "capacitor 22 microfarads". Is this part of the final idea? Because I read that some speak of a "new zobel".


It's the only one I built and it sounds fantastic.


----------



## Mart.oporto

eunice said:


> It's the only one I built and it sounds fantastic.


Really, I thank you very much for your time. Right now I order a pair of Bellsing to prove this!


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jun 10, 2019)

Well....
@Mart.oporto @eunice

I guess the best projects are

1: SCARY(or 2xCI + reverse polarity TWFK)
2: savant(ED29689), Savant pro(sonion 2354), Finale(FED30048)
3: BS6 + zobel
4: RAB series driver(all config)
5: RAB-p(its standalone to all other config and sounds way different than a normal RAB sound)
6: MASM 1st gen by @Furco (it was not called MASM at that point....check pg206)
7: MASM 2nd Gen(experiment can be done with all sort of RAB for all sorts of signature)
8: MASM pro( RAB32033 with resonator)
9: @Xymordos personal series of iem
10: CI30120 resonator horn
11: CI30120 + wbfk


----------



## eunice

This is interesting. I built Scary and I didn't like it very much. You do think the original MASM by @Furco is better than the MASM pro?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

eunice said:


> This is interesting. I built Scary and I didn't like it very much. You do think the original MASM by @Furco is better than the MASM pro?


Orignal MASM is without zobel and was slightly more tizzy and brighter giving a sense of more air. The approach of soundstage or furco set was upper mids and treble. Upper mids seem to touch sibilance sometime but is airy and grand.

MASM pro is more balanced plus bass extension is better. MASM pro has resonator which makes the difference in approach to upper mids. The peaks are more spread out and GQ double damping make sure treble never get sibilant and RAB make sure that extension is maximum. My soundstage construct is balanced approach wit bass acting as depth, Mid as height and treble as width


----------



## Mart.oporto

Of all the options that you gave, which one would you catalog as "reference" and which would be the most "balanced"?
For the balanced, I would like something very musical, enjoyable, smooth but still precise.


----------



## eunice

The scary is and the MASM are slightly V shaped. It’s not reference sound although the MASM comes fairly close. Try the Bellsing 6, it is near flat, slight warm tilt and sounds very musical and very precise. 
It’s a bit like the Knowles GV but much improved.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Mart.oporto said:


> Of all the options that you gave, which one would you catalog as "reference" and which would be the most "balanced"?
> For the balanced, I would like something very musical, enjoyable, smooth but still precise.


MASM with RAB32063
Savant finale or pro
RAB-p
BS6-zobel


----------



## eunice (Jun 10, 2019)

@dhruvmeena96  I think I will build a savant clone.

Just to be certain (EDIT: Fixed tubes, thanks @dhruvmeena96 )

*Savant:*

Knowles ED29689
20Ω resistor in series
Tube: 2mm ID 7.5mm length, 1500 Ω damper after 2mm from nozzle

Knowles ED30761
Tube: 2mm ID 9.5mm length, 2200Ω Damper after 1.5mm from nozzle

*Savant Finale:*

Knowles FED30048
2Ω resistor in series
Tube: 2mm ID 7.5mm length, no Damper


Knowles ED30761
Tube: 2mm ID 9.5mm length, 2200Ω Damper @1.5mm


----------



## kmmm

I’m building a MASM but I’m a bit confused. I can build a resonator but not a horn as I’m lacking 4mm tubing. Is it gray and green damper then, to replace the horn? Second question: is the green damper placed 1mm from ear canal side or BA side?


----------



## eunice

The MASM resonator is just 2mm and 1mm inner diameter tubes, afaik.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jun 10, 2019)

eunice said:


> @dhruvmeena96  I think I will build a savant clone.
> 
> Just to be certain:
> 
> ...


Yup

But I think tubes are wrong
ED30761 tube is

1.5mm ->damper(2.5mm) -> 5.5mm
9.5mm tubing length


ED29689 tube

2mm -> damper -> 3mm
7.5mm

@eunice
@eunice


----------



## dhruvmeena96

kmmm said:


> I’m building a MASM but I’m a bit confused. I can build a resonator but not a horn as I’m lacking 4mm tubing. Is it gray and green damper then, to replace the horn? Second question: is the green damper placed 1mm from ear canal side or BA side?


What are you building is MASM pro...it doesn't need horn. Just the resonator.
Green and grey damper are part of GQ to dampen almost all the peaks from it. Horn is not a structural part of MASM series

Green goes near the BA. grey is in center of tube


----------



## eunice (Jun 10, 2019)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Yup
> But I think tubes are wrong


Oh, what's the correct tubes? (edit: thanks for putting the correct tubes in your answer)

The ED30761 is the one without a nozzle, right? Looks really hard to attach a tube, do you just glue it on or do you build some kind of adapter?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

eunice said:


> Oh, what's the correct tubes?
> 
> The ED30761 is the one without a nozzle, right? Looks really hard to attach a tube, do you just glue it on or do you build some kind of adapter?


Its easy.

Take a tweeter, put inside the tube

Take a lighter or heat gun

Heat the tube gently and stretch it slowly.
Once stretch according to requirement.... Dip it into alcohol to set and tube is ready


Much faster way is by @Choy Wei De


----------



## eunice

Again thank you so much. I will try.
Here is an earlier post of you describing the Savant: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/home-made-iems.430688/page-535#post-14740929


----------



## dhruvmeena96

eunice said:


> Again thank you so much. I will try.
> Here is an earlier post of you describing the Savant: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/home-made-iems.430688/page-535#post-14740929


That was weird L-pad experiment

Dont do it

And go for Savant pro
Sonion 2354.

As it mimics HD650 in FR


FED is different league all together


And the updated tube setting is posted, go one page back


----------



## Choy Wei De (Jun 10, 2019)

@eunice

I used a #3 Allen key, I believe it represent 3mm, force it in into the tube and slowly use a lighter and heat it up. Do it about 3 times, then increase it to #4 Allen key and heat it up. Do it about 3 times and you are good.

You might need to experiment how deep do you need to insert the Allen key. I’m experimenting.


----------



## eunice

dhruvmeena96 said:


> That was weird L-pad experiment
> 
> Dont do it
> 
> ...



Thanks for the tube settings, I updated my post with your tube settings, just for reference.

I ordered FED from mouser, they ship pretty fast. Maybe I wait for FED, maybe I am impatient and build the Savant basic first and FED after.

But I don't have a source for Sonion 2354, so I'm not going to build that anytime soon.


----------



## eunice

Choy Wei De said:


> @eunice
> 
> I used a #3 Allen key, I believe it represent 3mm, force it in into the tube and slowly use a lighter and heat it up. Do it about 3 times, then increase it to #4 Allen key and heat it up. Do it about 3 times and you are good.
> 
> You might need to experiment how deep do you need to insert the Allen key. I’m experimenting.



Thank you so much for jumping in and help me out.

I have a tube expander tool like this https://www.aliexpress.com/store/pr...-Aid-Dispenser-s-Tool/830007_32713436928.html 

Would you try with that or do you think I will get better results with your Allen key method?


----------



## Choy Wei De

eunice said:


> Thank you so much for jumping in and help me out.
> 
> I have a tube expander tool like this https://www.aliexpress.com/store/pr...-Aid-Dispenser-s-Tool/830007_32713436928.html
> 
> Would you try with that or do you think I will get better results with your Allen key method?



I think the Allen key method is safer but need more work.

I used a tweezer to expand the tube with open flame. The tube expand unevenly and it’s more stretch on one side. You might not have that issue if you use hair dryer because the heat is more even than open flame.

The Allen key you just need work the Allen key into the tube. Require some force and skill to do that. But that will ensure the tube stretch evenly all around.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Anybody who has used FFC-26795-I04
The frequency response looks lit

Since the driver is predamped with ferrofluid and III style, it can eliminate the need of dampers in resonator and horn setup used in RAB-p. Plus the FR looks like a damped RAB32033 with way higher treble extension, I think it would be a nice driver to work with


----------



## IvanNOON

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Anybody who has used FFC-26795-I04
> The frequency response looks lit
> 
> Since the driver is predamped with ferrofluid and III style, it can eliminate the need of dampers in resonator and horn setup used in RAB-p. Plus the FR looks like a damped RAB32033 with way higher treble extension, I think it would be a nice driver to work with


Type-III damping means no bass
So this would work well as a tweeter


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jun 11, 2019)

IvanNOON said:


> Type-III damping means no bass
> So this would work well as a tweeter


I know, but this was noted as type III damping on seltech international with FED damping.

Plus....its not a tweeter as I have posted the response

Its one heck of a fullrange


Seltech tells us that it is III + ferrofluid damped full range driver

Knowles exec also told me that it is III + ferrofluid but is a full range. Plus one of the best full range driver


So I guess it was a heavy bass driver(I mean load tonne of bass with ferrofluid damping) and was compensated with type III damping to make it full range and get the treble out more


----------



## jbr1971

Has anyone heard of a DIY method of digitally scanning your ear canals similar to what UE does?

I just spoke to the local audiologist that UE recommends for digital impressions, but they only scan you if you are buying UE IEMs. They will not scan and provide the STL (or whichever format) files for hobby use.

I have scans of my previously taken/shaped impressions, but I figured the precision of digital ear scans would make for an even better fit.


----------



## eunice

I think that is very well possible, this has been asked repeatedly in this thread.

Maybe you can even use Fotoplast with a cheap sparkmaker 3d printer and get your models from VisualSFM.

That is one of the things I am planning to try out some time in the far distant future.


----------



## eunice

@dhruvmeena96 I want to build the Savant finale, but the given tube lengths (7.5mm and 9.5mm) are too short for customs. I think I can go down to 12mm. How would you increase the length, simply go to 12mm and 14mm to keep the 2mm difference or use a common factor like 15mm and 19mm?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

eunice said:


> @dhruvmeena96 I want to build the Savant finale, but the given tube lengths (7.5mm and 9.5mm) are too short for customs. I think I can go down to 12mm. How would you increase the length, simply go to 12mm and 14mm to keep the 2mm difference or use a common factor like 15mm and 19mm?


Well longer tube will effect where the peaks skewness are.
And I think longer tube will dampen the treble.

You can experiment though.

I cannot tell for sure on longer tubings, what sort of signature you will get.

Everything up to 1.2kHz will remain same, after that the effect may start, changing the structure of sounds


----------



## dhruvmeena96

@eunice 

And other members

If you have done RAB-p (RAB32033 + resonator + horn + zobel)

Try adding exact 67 ohms too it.

And get a good amplifier.

Damm, this thing is real treat

Killed er4s(not in neutrality, but monitoring)

This produces some of the biggest soundstage on my objective 2 amp.

And biggest, I mean, IEM should not produce gigantic soundstage plus a single driver should never actually


----------



## zekester

There has been a lot of love here for the Bellsing 6 driver, especially with zobel, what have been the deficiencies people have been seeing with the Bellsing 5?


----------



## eunice

zekester said:


> There has been a lot of love here for the Bellsing 6 driver, especially with zobel, what have been the deficiencies people have been seeing with the Bellsing 5?


It just doesn’t sound good. It has huge problems with mids and bass, distortion, cancellation, you name it.


----------



## eunice

I was so scared of these drivers without nozzles.
But it was very very easy using the tube expander tool:


----------



## dhruvmeena96

eunice said:


> I was so scared of these drivers without nozzles.
> But it was very very easy using the tube expander tool:


This looks nice.
So clean bro

So you got FED30048....nice


----------



## Choy Wei De

eunice said:


> I was so scared of these drivers without nozzles.
> But it was very very easy using the tube expander tool:



It’s nice that you already have the tool. I just can’t bear myself to purchase a $30~$40 tools just for tube expansion.


----------



## jbr1971

eunice said:


> I think that is very well possible, this has been asked repeatedly in this thread.
> 
> Maybe you can even use Fotoplast with a cheap sparkmaker 3d printer and get your models from VisualSFM.
> 
> That is one of the things I am planning to try out some time in the far distant future.



I believe you misunderstood what I am looking for. I already have solid impressions that I have had 3D scanned.

I am looking for something more precise and direct, as in the handheld 3D scanners that audiologists can use to take a direct scan of your ear canal.

I am having a hard time finding an audiologist that will scan my ears and provide the output file if I am not buying any hearing aids or the like from them, so I am hoping there is a DIY way to do it.


----------



## phrancini

After a failed first attempt where my impressions were badly taken: holes on one side and a short ear canal on the other, I was able to get a new pair (and a half, the audiologist let me keep one of the test impressions) done. This time they seem pretty good to me. 

New impressions


And now for the scariest part. I tried to cut the previous ones anyway, at least to gain some experience. Is there any major problem with the cut? Photos
The parts that's giving me headaches is the one where the connector should be, because I can't seem to find any reference picture that I can copy. 

Any advice?


----------



## eunice

You seem to have cut right, it will work. 

But you can improve the looks by polishing the impressions to a rounder shape with a nice curve on the side and a nice teardrop shape if you look at them from the bottom/faceplate. 

Just look at the photos of finished IEMs, that’s how your impressions should look like.


----------



## eunice

jbr1971 said:


> I believe you misunderstood what I am looking for. I already have solid impressions that I have had 3D scanned.
> 
> I am looking for something more precise and direct, as in the handheld 3D scanners that audiologists can use to take a direct scan of your ear canal.
> 
> I am having a hard time finding an audiologist that will scan my ears and provide the output file if I am not buying any hearing aids or the like from them, so I am hoping there is a DIY way to do it.



I am sorry then.

I have looked into the SLA printers and I am wondering if the sparkmaker 3D (using 400nm light) would cure fotoplast (which is designed for 365nm or so) and if the precision is high enough. 

If that works you would be able to buy a 200$ 3D printer and build CIEM shells. That would be awesome.


----------



## phrancini

eunice said:


> You seem to have cut right, it will work.
> 
> But you can improve the looks by polishing the impressions to a rounder shape with a nice curve on the side and a nice teardrop shape if you look at them from the bottom/faceplate.
> 
> Just look at the photos of finished IEMs, that’s how your impressions should look like.



Ok! that makes me feel better
regarding the curve on the side, I'll try to refine it a bit more

thank you


----------



## phrancini

jbr1971 said:


> I believe you misunderstood what I am looking for. I already have solid impressions that I have had 3D scanned.
> 
> I am looking for something more precise and direct, as in the handheld 3D scanners that audiologists can use to take a direct scan of your ear canal.
> 
> I am having a hard time finding an audiologist that will scan my ears and provide the output file if I am not buying any hearing aids or the like from them, so I am hoping there is a DIY way to do it.



Hi, I work as a product designer and I have experience with 3d modeling and printing, and a little (I mean, very little) with 3d scanning with both laser and photogrammetry. 
Scanning the outer ear is easily feasable, but the interior of the ear canal is virtually impossible, the outer part of the canal can be scanned but not the deepest part at least not with an handheld device. 

I believe the companies making 3d printed CIEMs and hearing aids are doing what you already did: take an impression, scan that and then work on it.


----------



## phrancini

eunice said:


> I am sorry then.
> 
> I have looked into the SLA printers and I am wondering if the sparkmaker 3D (using 400nm light) would cure fotoplast (which is designed for 365nm or so) and if the precision is high enough.
> 
> If that works you would be able to buy a 200$ 3D printer and build CIEM shells. That would be awesome.



this is intriguing. I have access to a 3d printer, so I guess I will scan my impressions and try to work on it digitally, if I get decent results I can try to print some shells (albeit with an FDM printer) and then move to a SLA later on


----------



## DannyBouwhuis

phrancini said:


> Hi, I work as a product designer and I have experience with 3d modeling and printing, and a little (I mean, very little) with 3d scanning with both laser and photogrammetry.
> Scanning the outer ear is easily feasable, but the interior of the ear canal is virtually impossible, the outer part of the canal can be scanned but not the deepest part at least not with an handheld device.
> 
> I believe the companies making 3d printed CIEMs and hearing aids are doing what you already did: take an impression, scan that and then work on it.



Some company's do that, they scan the impression work on it and then they 3d print it in resin, But I'm pretty sure some companies are actually able to 3d scan the entire ear canal, There's a video on YouTube from UE if I'm not mistaken where they show how they do it..

I've got it here


----------



## phrancini

DannyBouwhuis said:


> Some company's do that, they scan the impression work on it and then they 3d print it in resin, But I'm pretty sure some companies are actually able to 3d scan the entire ear canal, There's a video on YouTube from UE if I'm not mistaken where they show how they do it..
> 
> I've got it here




WOW! 
I'm speechless. I didn't know there was a scanner small enough to enter the ear canal. I guess I was wrong, excuse me.


----------



## eunice

dhruvmeena96 said:


> This looks nice.
> So clean bro
> So you got FED30048....nice


Yes it was very satisfying, even more satisfying than gluing tubes to drivers with nozzle.

You advertised for the FED30048, so I go out and buy it.

Anyway: Savant Finale does not have a zobel, right?


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jun 13, 2019)

eunice said:


> Yes it was very satisfying, even more satisfying than gluing tubes to drivers with nozzle.
> 
> You advertised for the FED30048, so I go out and buy it.
> 
> Anyway: Savant Finale does not have a zobel, right?


Yes it doesnt

And it actually doesnt need one
You will find out what a ferrofluid driver can do


Well @eunice how you are going to solve tube length issue though


----------



## alanwcruz

eunice said:


> There have been few pictures of finished IEMs lately.
> 
> Here's one of mine!
> 
> ...


----------



## alanwcruz

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Yes it doesnt
> 
> And it actually doesnt need one
> You will find out what a ferrofluid driver can do
> ...



What I do for short tube lengths is to pour the acrylic directly on the drivers, I think I posted a pic of a SCARY build where this was the only way I was able to fit everything.


----------



## eunice

I will try to get the drivers as far as possible into the ear canal keeping the 2mm difference and fill up the ear canal with resin (as I always do)

Depending on how they sound and measure I might use a dremel to drill a larger opening into the ear canal to shorten the tubes.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

FFC-26795 and GQ-30710, both of the drivers work with RAB-p horn resonator setup

GQ-30710 will have brown to green damper
FFC-26795 will not have any dampers

Both share similarities with RAB driver in specific peak and bass boost.

FFC-26795 sounds like way more detailed single driver setup without zobel. Like a huge driver tech step-up. Everything is presented with unmeasurable speed and immaculate detail and harmonics. Ferrofluid just nails it.


GQ-30710 sounds way more extended, dampers eat the speed but still it reaches the speed of single driver FFC-26795. But I think it outclasses the FFC in details and note presentation, which leads to bigger stage.

Both are huge step-up from single RAB setup. But I prefer GQ-30710 sound more due to costing and ease of handling, plus it being multi driver


----------



## Senor CIEM (Jun 14, 2019)

I'm having the ideal to change the DTEC on the Bellsing 6 to an Sonion 33AJ007i/9 to improve the bass response. The DTEC got 23 ohms and the Sonion 12 ohms DC resistance and 31.5 and 18 ohms impedance. What would I have to think about using Ivans zobel to get the same effect? Will this just simple work or should I be worried about the lower DC resistance/impedance of the Sonion? Asking before because I'm afraid to kill the Bellsing 6 with unsoldering and separating and then it won't work as well...


----------



## eunice

Due to the lower impedance you will have to match the volume of the sonions. 

Better just buy two TWFK add them to the Sonion and reverse engineer the Bellsing crossover; it looks like it’s just one cap.


----------



## Senor CIEM

eunice said:


> Due to the lower impedance you will have to match the volume of the sonions.
> 
> Better just buy two TWFK add them to the Sonion and reverse engineer the Bellsing crossover; it looks like it’s just one cap.



And put before the 2 TWFKs just a resistor? Its 2 caps. I will have to unassemble it and measure it, so this will be more work and I guess the Bellsing 6 is not usable after this. That why my question was if its maybe just not easier to put a resistor before the TWFKs to lower the volume.


----------



## eunice

let me do it, I have a broken B6


----------



## jbr1971

No luck with finding a local audiologist with a handheld 3D ear scanner that will help me, so it looks like I will have to make due with the 3D scans I previously had done of my physical impressions (after cutting/shaping).

They are not bad scans by any means, but my OCD just wanted something super precise of my whole ear to build off of.

Now to see how much of my weekend is spent in Meshmixer...


----------



## eunice (Jun 14, 2019)

This is the B6 before disassembly:

The cap on the top left measures at 0.9uF. The other cap measures at 4.2uF
The yellow dots are connected throug to the other side of the pcb/to the TWFK



This is the board removed in about the same orientation as above.

The yellow markings are correspond to the yellow markings in the image above. The connection between the TWFK is green:



For reference, the clean circuit board front



clean circuit board backside


and the connections of the dtec, so you see the copper colored (negative) and red wire (positive). 


This is how I think it's wired:

I am not 100% sure but it looks like TWFK are connected with reverse polarity:


----------



## kmmm

I finished the MASM pro and have been listening to them for a couple of days now. I have to say I’m quite impressed! The imaging is what’s standing out for me. Compared to other iem’s I have heard they’re really “tidy”. Kudos to all of you for contributing to this thread!
Next will be belsing 6 with zobel, then “scary build”. All parts revived and waiting. This has become an addictive hobby...


----------



## eunice

kmmm said:


> I finished the MASM pro and have been listening to them for a couple of days now. I have to say I’m quite impressed! The imaging is what’s standing out for me. Compared to other iem’s I have heard they’re really “tidy”. Kudos to all of you for contributing to this thread!
> Next will be belsing 6 with zobel, then “scary build”. All parts revived and waiting. This has become an addictive hobby...


Congrats!


----------



## phrancini

jbr1971 said:


> No luck with finding a local audiologist with a handheld 3D ear scanner that will help me, so it looks like I will have to make due with the 3D scans I previously had done of my physical impressions (after cutting/shaping).
> 
> They are not bad scans by any means, but my OCD just wanted something super precise of my whole ear to build off of.
> 
> Now to see how much of my weekend is spent in Meshmixer...



What did you use to scan them? Photogrammetry or laser scanner? I just took something like 180 photos of my uncut impressions  but i wasn't able to reconstruct the 3d model with visual sfm


----------



## Caluub

Just finished a set of universals using the RAB 32257 design by dhruvmeena and Choy Wei De. I wanted to build something inexpensive to use with a Bluetooth adapter while at the gym or climbing. This is only the second set of universals I've built. Previous builds include three iterations of customs with Knowles GV, one universal with GV for my girlfriend, and a B6 + zobel ciem that I'm currently working on.

I think these sound great for a sub-$100 build. Bass reproduction is lacking a bit and treble could use a bit more taming to prevent fatigue. Overall, the quality for price is amazing and the work put into the zobel and tubing (dhruvmeena & Choy Wei De) for this is very impressive.

Following Choy Wei De's post for the tubing didn't take much time at all and I was able to finish it within 20 minutes. The zobel took a bit longer just because I was working with 0805 & 1206 size parts. I used uv solder mask to protect the joints and prevent shorts when compressed into the very small shell. The shell I used was perfect for this build, which is nice because I couldn't fit anything larger into them.

I think they turned out pretty nice and I'll definitely feel more comfortable using them at the gym than my customs.


----------



## eunice

Well done thanks for sharing. The blue design with the blue tips is very nice. 

I have used mmcx sockets that look like yours but one of them started to become shaky after a few days of using them. Please share how they hold up after some time of use.


----------



## Caluub

eunice said:


> Well done thanks for sharing. The blue design with the blue tips is very nice.
> 
> I have used mmcx sockets that look like yours but one of them started to become shaky after a few days of using them. Please share how they hold up after some time of use.



Will do. I bought these specifically for the notch in the side because I absolutely cannot prevent the connectors from pushing into my custom shells. It's a problem I still struggle with and is ultimately the reason I've had to rebuild every pair of customs I've finished.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Caluub said:


> Just finished a set of universals using the RAB 32257 design by dhruvmeena and Choy Wei De. I wanted to build something inexpensive to use with a Bluetooth adapter while at the gym or climbing. This is only the second set of universals I've built. Previous builds include three iterations of customs with Knowles GV, one universal with GV for my girlfriend, and a B6 + zobel ciem that I'm currently working on.
> 
> I think these sound great for a sub-$100 build. Bass reproduction is lacking a bit and treble could use a bit more taming to prevent fatigue. Overall, the quality for price is amazing and the work put into the zobel and tubing (dhruvmeena & Choy Wei De) for this is very impressive.
> 
> ...


The tubing inside metal nozzle of shell should be such that, that it should measure 3mm.

And can you give link for the shell


----------



## eunice

Caluub said:


> Will do. I bought these specifically for the notch in the side because I absolutely cannot prevent the connectors from pushing into my custom shells. It's a problem I still struggle with and is ultimately the reason I've had to rebuild every pair of customs I've finished.


I had the same problem several times and tried the ones with the notch for the same reason. But the socket failed anyways, I have to sometime pull the cable. 

I now scratch the area around the mmcx socket with a scalpel knife to make deep grooves and basically completely cover the socket it in resin. That does work.


----------



## Choy Wei De

Caluub said:


> Just finished a set of universals using the RAB 32257 design by dhruvmeena and Choy Wei De. I wanted to build something inexpensive to use with a Bluetooth adapter while at the gym or climbing. This is only the second set of universals I've built. Previous builds include three iterations of customs with Knowles GV, one universal with GV for my girlfriend, and a B6 + zobel ciem that I'm currently working on.
> 
> I think these sound great for a sub-$100 build. Bass reproduction is lacking a bit and treble could use a bit more taming to prevent fatigue. Overall, the quality for price is amazing and the work put into the zobel and tubing (dhruvmeena & Choy Wei De) for this is very impressive.
> 
> ...




Nice build! You can increase the damper to brown. But by doing do you might kill too much of the sweet mids and treble. Or you can try RAB 32033. I would say that 32033 would sound better for gym than 32257.


----------



## Caluub

dhruvmeena96 said:


> The tubing inside metal nozzle of shell should be such that, that it should measure 3mm.
> 
> And can you give link for the shell



I did make sure to compensate for horn size in the nozzle. 

Here is the shell. The opening for the nozzle is very small so it is difficult to fit more than one tube through it without consequence. It will comfortably fit one 3mm OD tube.


----------



## Choy Wei De

dhruvmeena96 said:


> The tubing inside metal nozzle of shell should be such that, that it should measure 3mm.
> 
> And can you give link for the shell



I manage to fit a 3.2mm OD tube in it. I was lazy to glue the tube initially, so I got a bigger tube to make the seal. But I end up using glue to seal the tube anyway.

Taobao:
https://m.tb.cn/h.eU4gSJe?sm=7e2a90

Anyone has reliable source for AliExpress?


----------



## Choy Wei De

eunice said:


> I had the same problem several times and tried the ones with the notch for the same reason. But the socket failed anyways, I have to sometime pull the cable.
> 
> I now scratch the area around the mmcx socket with a scalpel knife to make deep grooves and basically completely cover the socket it in resin. That does work.



I used UV glue to glue it down. No problem since then.


----------



## Caluub

eunice said:


> I had the same problem several times and tried the ones with the notch for the same reason. But the socket failed anyways, I have to sometime pull the cable.
> 
> I now scratch the area around the mmcx socket with a scalpel knife to make deep grooves and basically completely cover the socket it in resin. That does work.



I will keep that in mind for my next set of customs. I have this connector but I haven't used it yet. It's very large but the retention offered might be worth the struggle to fit in the shell. 

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32841238822.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.10d54c4dnjtQ2z


----------



## Caluub

Choy Wei De said:


> I manage to fit a 3.2mm OD tube in it. I was lazy to glue the tube initially, so I got a bigger tube to make the seal. But I end up using glue to seal the tube anyway.
> 
> Taobao:
> https://m.tb.cn/h.eU4gSJe?sm=7e2a90
> ...



I sealed the tube into the nozzle with uv glue and it worked great.

Here is the same shell on Aliexpress. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32873071827.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.10d54c4dnjtQ2z


----------



## eunice

Choy Wei De said:


> I used UV glue to glue it down. No problem since then.


What UV glue exactly ?


----------



## jbr1971

phrancini said:


> What did you use to scan them? Photogrammetry or laser scanner? I just took something like 180 photos of my uncut impressions  but i wasn't able to reconstruct the 3d model with visual sfm



I did not scan them myself, I sent them to someone to do it for me. I am 99.9% sure it was done with a professional laser scanner, but I forgot to ask.

There were a couple issues with the scans I was dreading having to tackle, but I have found a way around them much quicker than anticipated. Now it is about final smoothing/shaping of the STL files, then building custom driver housings in CAD, and mating them with the shells for printing.

It has been way too long since I have messed with CAD, I forgot how much I enjoyed it.


----------



## Choy Wei De

eunice said:


> What UV glue exactly ?



I used loca 2500, UV glue used for smartphone screen replacement. You can use syringe and fit it into tight spaces. But do get some alcohol or IPA, because you need it to remove the glue when you need.


----------



## Choy Wei De

jbr1971 said:


> I did not scan them myself, I sent them to someone to do it for me. I am 99.9% sure it was done with a professional laser scanner, but I forgot to ask.
> 
> There were a couple issues with the scans I was dreading having to tackle, but I have found a way around them much quicker than anticipated. Now it is about final smoothing/shaping of the STL files, then building custom driver housings in CAD, and mating them with the shells for printing.
> 
> It has been way too long since I have messed with CAD, I forgot how much I enjoyed it.



I really want to make a rig that can take a perfect photogrammetry everytime. Like using a mini light studio, a turn table, and a phone or camera tripod.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Caluub said:


> Just finished a set of universals using the RAB 32257 design by dhruvmeena and Choy Wei De. I wanted to build something inexpensive to use with a Bluetooth adapter while at the gym or climbing. This is only the second set of universals I've built. Previous builds include three iterations of customs with Knowles GV, one universal with GV for my girlfriend, and a B6 + zobel ciem that I'm currently working on.
> 
> I think these sound great for a sub-$100 build. Bass reproduction is lacking a bit and treble could use a bit more taming to prevent fatigue. Overall, the quality for price is amazing and the work put into the zobel and tubing (dhruvmeena & Choy Wei De) for this is very impressive.
> 
> ...


Question 
What is that blue thing after zobel(in series to driver). If it is a resistor, please remove it. Any resistor will go in between zobel and mmcx(not in between driver and Zobel)

Suggestion
Use brown damper, white is for treble head. 

Compliment
Best color scheme(blue foam tips) with blue shell. It looks sexy AF. And also blue gloves....


----------



## wolkegeist (Jun 15, 2019)

I’m trying to build a dual RAB 32257 plus a sonion tweeter (E25ST001). I understand zobel  for RAB but idk how to wire the tweeter. Any advices? And what is the length of tubing and damping I need for a balanced sound?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

wolkegeist said:


> I’m trying to build a dual RAB 32257 plus a sonion tweeter (E25ST001). I understand zobel  for RAB but idk how to wire the tweeter. Any advices? And what is the length of tubing and damping I need for a balanced sound?


Hmmm
Since there is no zobel for EST.

They are going to share the zobel.

Zobel on MMCX according to RAB series or parallel.
(Series means inductance and resistance double, parallel means 1/2)

EST with 940nF cap(470nF cap parallel).

You gonna ask why not 1uF. Well you can go for that too, but this is the sweetspot I came with while testing value near 1uF on EST.

I think, its better to do RAB-p(green damper) + EST

That's gonna save 1 RAB, plus you would have a better extended response and mature tuning.


----------



## wolkegeist

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Hmmm
> Since there is no zobel for EST.
> 
> They are going to share the zobel.
> ...


Thanks for the advice!
Can you explain further about RAB-p?I made one RAB build before, but not with zobel, I put 10ohm resistor in series with RAB and green damper 10mm away from driver. So the sound is mid focus, but I want more treb and bass so I think I can wire another RAB as woofer and EST as tweeter.
LIKE this?


----------



## Caluub (Jun 15, 2019)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Question
> What is that blue thing after zobel(in series to driver). If it is a resistor, please remove it. Any resistor will go in between zobel and mmcx(not in between driver and Zobel)
> 
> Suggestion
> ...


It is a 20ohm resistor that is green because of the solder mask. It was my understanding that it should be there. Are you suggesting that I should move it so that it is on the positive leg of the mmcx but before the zobel instead of after? Or do you suggest that I remove the resistor entirely?

I will try brown dampeners. Also, would you suggest removing the tape from the vent in the driver?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

wolkegeist said:


> Thanks for the advice!
> Can you explain further about RAB-p?I made one RAB build before, but not with zobel, I put 10ohm resistor in series with RAB and green damper 10mm away from driver. So the sound is mid focus, but I want more treb and bass so I think I can wire another RAB as woofer and EST as tweeter.
> LIKE this?


Wire a zobel circuit on the + and - of MMCX(parallel to circuit)

RAB-p is resonator + horn + zobel + brown damper
I think I have mentioned it somewhere in thread


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Caluub said:


> It is a 20ohm resistor that is green because of the solder mask. It was my understanding that it should be there. Are you suggesting that I should move it so that it is on the positive leg of the mmcx but before the zobel instead of after? Or do you suggest that I remove the resistor entirely?
> 
> I will try brown dampeners. Also, would you suggest removing the tape from the vent in the driver?




 
You mean to add the 20ohm to driver before it hit zobel

Which changes the Q factor of driver for Zobel to work effectively.

You driver will turn 42ohm DCR

And the zobel is made for 22ohm DCR.

Shift the resistor on mmcx leg 

Mmcx - resistor - zobel - driver


----------



## Caluub

dhruvmeena96 said:


> You mean to add the 20ohm to driver before it hit zobel
> 
> Which changes the Q factor of driver for Zobel to work effectively.
> 
> ...



Okay, I will move it. Should the tape be left on the driver vent?


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jun 15, 2019)

Caluub said:


> Okay, I will move it. Should the tape be left on the driver vent?


Your choice
RAB32257 distort less than RAB32033
But when you remove tape, it distorts higher than 32033 while mimicking it


Well,I think, you should remove the resistor all together actually, if you find the response brighter.

If you want to really add, then add 10ohms only. Resistor in series was used for crossover purposes to damp the impedance and bass curve

And change to brown damper.


----------



## wolkegeist

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Hmmm
> 
> EST with 940nF cap(470nF cap parallel).
> 
> You gonna ask why not 1uF. Well you can go for that too, but this is the sweetspot I came with while testing value near 1uF on EST.


You mean 940nF cap parallel to EST or series?
BTW do you have any suggestion on EST damping or tubing?
Thanks in advance!


----------



## dhruvmeena96

wolkegeist said:


> You mean 940nF cap parallel to EST or series?
> BTW do you have any suggestion on EST damping or tubing?
> Thanks in advance!


Series

EST is capacitor and tweeter high pass happens when you use series cap

If using RAB-p design

Take the half or double the amount of tubing length
1mm ID(because RAB-p is with horn, so compensate ID of EST, we have to go smaller dia....dont worry about roll off due to smaller ID tubing, as EST doesnt have roll off....so smaller ID effect will be negligible)

Recommended is double for sparkle and airy treble


----------



## Caluub

dhruvmeena96 said:


> You mean to add the 20ohm to driver before it hit zobel
> 
> Which changes the Q factor of driver for Zobel to work effectively.
> 
> ...



Moved the resistor as recommended. I seem to be getting much better quality now. Next I will try with a brown dampener instead of white.


----------



## Caluub

Update: brown resistor is slightly better. You really have to be focusing on a difference to notice. Slightly warmer, less fatiguing.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Caluub said:


> Update: brown resistor is slightly better. You really have to be focusing on a difference to notice. Slightly warmer, less fatiguing.


I think it is smooth enough and not at all fatiguing. But everyone eardrums and canal react differently.

Brown damper had a purpose when we finalised it. White damper had least impact on treble(grey and white were acting same on HF, even though white damped the 3kHz region more than grey) while green was killing our top end extension. 8kHz to 11kHz sacrifice was there in brown, but was not killing response like green.

Remove the 20ohms series resistor, so that you can make t less brighter


The series resistor only goes in when its worked with other drivers


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## Caluub (Jun 15, 2019)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> I think it is smooth enough and not at all fatiguing. But everyone eardrums and canal react differently.
> 
> Brown damper had a purpose when we finalised it. White damper had least impact on treble(grey and white were acting same on HF, even though white damped the 3kHz region more than grey) while green was killing our top end extension. 8kHz to 11kHz sacrifice was there in brown, but was not killing response like green.
> 
> ...



Will removing the series resistor increase response in mids?

EDIT: Removed the resistor. After removing I enjoyed it more with the white dampener than the brown.


----------



## Ivan TT

Heads up, Bellsing 10013 aka BS6 will be on sale in couple of days at 20% discount.
Add some dampers and AE coupons (up to 3 I believe) and it’s quite a sweet deal!
Other drivers are discounted too, but not as much.


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## dhruvmeena96 (Jun 16, 2019)

Can anybody find this driver in pair rather than mass order

https://m.alibaba.com/product/62008...pm=a2706.7843667.1998817009.13.11eaf3ffNFhcSU

10mm planar magnetic driver


----------



## Xymordos

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Can anybody find this driver in pair rather than mass order
> 
> https://m.alibaba.com/product/62008...pm=a2706.7843667.1998817009.13.11eaf3ffNFhcSU
> 
> 10mm planar magnetic driver


I bought 2 pairs but didn't use it yet. It's from the same factory as the 14mm ones and they only sell in batches of 100s...The seller was nice enough to let me buy a few  pairs only, but I'm not sure if he'll let me buy more pairs.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Xymordos said:


> I bought 2 pairs but didn't use it yet. It's from the same factory as the 14mm ones and they only sell in batches of 100s...The seller was nice enough to let me buy a few  pairs only, but I'm not sure if he'll let me buy more pairs.


Well, I was listening to tinaudio p1(review unit to my friend)
My mind was blown by the speed and detail, even though signature structure was okayish....

Soundstage was huge


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Xymordos said:


> I bought 2 pairs but didn't use it yet. It's from the same factory as the 14mm ones and they only sell in batches of 100s...The seller was nice enough to let me buy a few  pairs only, but I'm not sure if he'll let me buy more pairs.


Can you send the seller link

Because all I find is 500 batches.
100 batches...I can do that


----------



## eunice

Testing savant finale... first impression: it has definitively the best mids and highs. It is so transparent I can hear background noise, incorrect reverb, digital artifacts in music I have so far believed to be flawlessly produced. And I can hear the weaknesses of the dragonfly black to a point that it annoys me. 

But, it’s a bit lacking in bass. Bass is there and super accurate, but it’s not enough for my taste. Let’s see if I can tune it a bit.


----------



## Xymordos

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Can you send the seller link
> 
> Because all I find is 500 batches.
> 100 batches...I can do that



I have him on Wechat, he doesn't sell on Taobao as the volumes are too low to profit. I'm not sure he'll sell more as I asked him for a special treatment the last time i bought it unfortunately...

All of their drivers have a massive dip at 3-5kHz which can't be fixed easily


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Xymordos said:


> I have him on Wechat, he doesn't sell on Taobao as the volumes are too low to profit. I'm not sure he'll sell more as I asked him for a special treatment the last time i bought it unfortunately...
> 
> All of their drivers have a massive dip at 3-5kHz which can't be fixed easily


I think, there is some acoustic wizardry going on.
I can fix it with horn though

But it will take a 10mm To narrow bore adapter and some tubes.. And some freaky calculations



eunice said:


> Testing savant finale... first impression: it has definitively the best mids and highs. It is so transparent I can hear background noise, incorrect reverb, digital artifacts in music I have so far believed to be flawlessly produced. And I can hear the weaknesses of the dragonfly black to a point that it annoys me.
> 
> But, it’s a bit lacking in bass. Bass is there and super accurate, but it’s not enough for my taste. Let’s see if I can tune it a bit.


FED30048 is a predamped green ED29689 with no mid bass artifact.
This help us remove any obstruction in acoustic or air reproduction part, plus being a ferrofluid damped motor, the braking or stopping point(decay tightness) is perfect with higher gauss magnetic field concentrate helping it to extend further.

You won't be able to increase bass though since it lacks artifacts ED29689 had. But it is flat neutral without roll off.

For RAB-p, true successor is FFC driver I mentioned above. It leads to removal of damper, which increase detail to crazy level.


Removing damper can make driver very clear. Ferrofluid drivers are best for damperless applications





Well, I want Knowles to produce a CI-22955 with ferrofluid and heavy type damping


----------



## eunice (Jun 16, 2019)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> You won't be able to increase bass though since it lacks artifacts ED29689 had. But it is flat neutral without roll off.



It is flat, but in headphones and even more in IEMs, bass should be increased. Harman Kardon Target has it elevated too.

The ferro-fluid damping is an interesting subject: https://www.knowles.com/docs/default-source/default-document-library/an-6-issue01.pdf?sfvrsn=2

BTW I have my tube at 10mm and 12mm, that's 2.5mm longer than the suggested 7.5mm and 9.5mm.

Hearing it back and forth with the BS6 + Zobel, the BS6 is much more vibrant and fun, OTOH the resolution, speed and accuracy of the savant finale is just out of this world

But I have a hard time deciding if it is over emphazising or adding distortion artifacts to music or if it just super revealing and the flaws are in my source material. It will take a ton of listening to figure that out.


----------



## eunice (Jun 16, 2019)

So the bass does roll of, quite a bit in fact, but the roll of starts below 50Hz.

Knowles does hide that by showing the SPL from 100Hz up in their data sheets.





I was able to solve the distortion issues by adding another orange (!) damper to the ED, basically downgrading it to a bass only driver. That also shaped the signature a bit more to my liking.

Now Savant finale definitively sounds much better than the BS6, except the BS6 has slightly more slam below 50Hz. Listen to "Hands Up (Acid Mix)" by "Dense & Pika" if you want to know why I sometimes want that  it's in medium quality on mixcloud in this set at 15:28:  )

Thank you so much for this suggestion. Now the BS6 sounds quite colored compared to these...


----------



## dhruvmeena96

eunice said:


> So the bass does roll of, quite a bit in fact, but the roll of starts below 50Hz.
> 
> Knowles does hide that by showing the SPL from 100Hz up in their data sheets.
> I dont see the bass from ED30761, in your setup graph. Hmmmm
> ...


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jun 17, 2019)

eunice said:


> So the bass does roll of, quite a bit in fact, but the roll of starts below 50Hz.
> 
> Knowles does hide that by showing the SPL from 100Hz up in their data sheets.
> 
> ...





Remove the orange damper to fill 3kHz and get a complete harmanish curve. It should be red, so that it can peak at 3kHz

I think there is some issue with your bass, as mine seems completely fine and elevated, with decent slam

Which measurement calibration you are running though



Update: they do have less bass than BS6...
Well how about adding a specific heavy damped bass driver like CI to the mix.

You can easily add it.

20mm length/ 0.5mm ID(lower than 1mm ID)
Triple yellow dampers(one near spout, one near the center and one at 3/4 of tube)

0mm -> 10mm -> 15mm


3 ohms series resistance to be added

@eunice


Triple driver with the craziest mids from FED, midbss from ED30761 and subbass from CI22955

All full range helps balancing the impedance plus no crossover phase shifting

All driver are on 25ohms


Which means IEM impedance is 8.34ohms

Which is ~ 8ohms and is relatively borderline very low impedance and normal impedance


Neutrality is maintained, just the subbass is boosted


Plus triple heavy damping is something I came up recently

The near BA spout yellow damper will smoothen all peak from CI, center will roll off like low pass, and the last one will lower the sensitivity.

And three yellow dampers will add a delay subbass effect due to higher resistance or high surface area of yellow dampers. This will actually make all the bass add as a decay below 60Hz. Something like spiral ear se5u but not neat as the spiral ear delayed ignition CI driver.

The decay will sound like a very big dynamic driver(something like Sony xba z5 in quantity and quality, just crossed very low in subbass)

Neutrality is maintained

And here I defeated the BS6 + zobel in sound quality and lower driver numbers. BS6 + zobel wins for lower price


----------



## eunice (Jun 17, 2019)

If I remove the orange damper, I get distortion. Especially piano music sounds stressful to my ears.

With red AND orange damper this is just heaven, except for the slight roll-off below 50Hz.

My guess is it has something to do with the tube lengths with the ED being more susceptible to the longer tubes I use.

So this is Savant finale CIEM version:

- FED30048 with 2 Ohm resistor in series, 14mm tube and no dampers.
- ED30761 16mm tube, red damper @5mm and orange damper at the tip.

I think about adding the CI as you suggested. I do not have tubing <1mm and I never built a triple bore. How about using a shorter 1mm ID tube?


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jun 17, 2019)

eunice said:


> If I remove the orange damper, I get distortion. Especially piano music sounds stressful to my ears.
> 
> With red AND orange damper this is just heaven, except for the slight roll-off below 50Hz.
> 
> ...


You can go with that...not an issue
Not bigger than 1mm ID


For ED30761, I guess it is not distortion, but the volume being too high at the region of 2kHz to 4kHz for you

Its okay though

But CI will need 3 yellow dampers so that you can just compensate the 50Hz and down bass. Plus point is that natural bass decay

I think FED must have smaller tube than ED30761


----------



## eunice

dhruvmeena96 said:


> I think FED must have smaller tube than ED30761


You are right, I flipped the tube lengths. I adjusted my post above.

Thank you.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

I bought the wooden shells
@Ivan TT 
It has slot for 10mm and 6.2mm drivers
@Xymordos 
If I am able to get the planar driver
I am going to use it as 10mm
A SR driver (6mm) in full range(damped and dB resisted by resistor) as planar tone corrector

And a EST single armature version in nozzle 


Planar, BA and electrostatic

Too much fun

I have tried the bigger planar. Amazing sound but weird signature

 Confirmed something from one of the alibaba seller.  He said to me that 14mm planar was prototype planar made for an experiment. 10mm is what they perfected it as a dynamic replacement and can be used in closed shell with proper back damping inside the shell cavity.


----------



## Xymordos

dhruvmeena96 said:


> I bought the wooden shells
> @Ivan TT
> It has slot for 10mm and 6.2mm drivers
> @Xymordos
> ...



Interesting, the seller told me the 14 sounded better. BTW, dont think you need electrostat as the planar has amazing extension.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Xymordos said:


> Interesting, the seller told me the 14 sounded better. BTW, dont think you need electrostat as the planar has amazing extension.


Hmmm

14 sounds bigger but is harder to tune
10 is better due to application purposes

Well, that's the magic.
EST on 10kHz crossover will do the trick on getting the craziest airiest soundstage


----------



## wolkegeist

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Well, that's the magic.
> EST on 10kHz crossover will do the trick on getting the craziest airiest soundstage


Senpai, can you teach us the magic of EST on 10kHz Crossover?


----------



## kmmm

There has been som talk about problems with MMCX jacks. After I started using these from Plastics 1. I have had no issues what so ever!
Got them from mcear.de. Just a tip


----------



## dhruvmeena96

wolkegeist said:


> Senpai, can you teach us the magic of EST on 10kHz Crossover?


470nF cap in series
Here you go kohai


----------



## dhruvmeena96

kmmm said:


> There has been som talk about problems with MMCX jacks. After I started using these from Plastics 1. I have had no issues what so ever!
> Got them from mcear.de. Just a tip


Plastic 1 mmcx are good

But the best mmcx are from amphenol
They are military grade mmcx connectors with very huge shell life


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jun 17, 2019)

@Xymordos 

remove the bass boost and make it flat for the 10mm planar with normal vent infront

It needs a estate for 10kHz and some non roll off treble

And @crinacle  graphs actually match my ears(due to some reason, his 90% reading and review matches mine)


----------



## Bassiklee

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Plastic 1 mmcx are good
> 
> But the best mmcx are from amphenol
> They are military grade mmcx connectors with very huge shell life




Pics??


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Bassiklee said:


> Pics??


Moi use Chinese mmcx
One friend used it.
And I guess, it is on this thread only

Moi cheap guy


----------



## RAFAEL DOUGLAS MARTINS

Hi everyone, I took the meter with my cousin, and I used the RTA, the pink noise, it shows the perfect graphic, I did a test using two correctly polarized 22955 and an inverse, I heard the frequency cancellation killing the two drivers.  I say this because I saw it here comrades talking that made the inversion, at least until the tests made it is not advisable to reverse the polarity


----------



## dhruvmeena96

RAFAEL DOUGLAS MARTINS said:


> Hi everyone, I took the meter with my cousin, and I used the RTA, the pink noise, it shows the perfect graphic, I did a test using two correctly polarized 22955 and an inverse, I heard the frequency cancellation killing the two drivers.  I say this because I saw it here comrades talking that made the inversion, at least until the tests made it is not advisable to reverse the polarity


Well that was supposed to happen if you polarise two same driver in opposing way.

Hmmmm I cannot get the info you want to share bro. But I think you are trying to say something different and important. The message was not clear to me


----------



## RAFAEL DOUGLAS MARTINS

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Well that was supposed to happen if you polarise two same driver in opposing way.
> 
> Hmmmm I cannot get the info you want to share bro. But I think you are trying to say something different and important. The message was not clear to me




I'll do some testing and posting


----------



## Xymordos

dhruvmeena96 said:


> @Xymordos remove the bass boost and make it flat for the 10mm planar with normal vent infront
> 
> It needs a estate for 10kHz and some non roll off treble
> 
> And @crinacle  graphs actually match my ears(due to some reason, his 90% reading and review matches mine)



I haven't had time to play around with the 10mm driver yet. Gonna try 3D printing some enclosures to see if it works. You should try the 14mm driver if you can, it sounds very good and the bass is amazing if you boost it a little with another driver.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Xymordos said:


> I haven't had time to play around with the 10mm driver yet. Gonna try 3D printing some enclosures to see if it works. You should try the 14mm driver if you can, it sounds very good and the bass is amazing if you boost it a little with another driver.


I have tried it
Got from chitty store on aliexpress

Well the driver is amazing, but weird in treble
The mids it produce feels so effortless.



New project on which I m working on

CI22955 + FED30048 + SWFK32255


----------



## dhruvmeena96

eunice said:


> So the bass does roll of, quite a bit in fact, but the roll of starts below 50Hz.
> 
> Knowles does hide that by showing the SPL from 100Hz up in their data sheets.
> 
> ...



I listened to the tracks and the mixcloud attachment.

Savant finale seems thinner or I would say leaner, but way fast in transient response and way to clear.

BS6 zobel is clear but I think slower and more fun to listen.


Savant finale seriously needs Benchmark DAC 3 to play to its maximum capability. 

Savant Finale + CI sounds perfection
I think, better than Spiral ear SE5U
1mm ID tube on CI with three yellow dampers.

It just changes the way I see soundstage. It is like galaxy or I am tripping on psychedelics sort of feeling with CI and savant finale



Well I think we should change the names

Savant is copyright of noble audio


----------



## eunice

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Well I think we should change the names


ED+FED+CI = Season 2 finale


----------



## Ivan TT

eunice said:


> ED+FED+CI = Season 2 finale


Maharishi? (nod to @dhruvmeena96 )


----------



## Ivan TT (Jun 18, 2019)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Savant finale seriously needs Benchmark DAC 3 to play to its maximum capability.


Funny enough I ended up modding some of my sources to a crazy class-A biasing level and have to re-evaluate just about everything, as all the sets I've built and kept (about 10) sound completely different with these mods/tweaks. Different=awesome.

One "wow!" and "aha!" moment was finally getting x4 RAF series + Zobel sounding as I was anticipating it should sound like, description under spoiler


Spoiler


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Ivan TT said:


> Funny enough I ended up modding some of my sources to a crazy class-A biasing level and have to re-evaluate just about everything, as all the sets I've built and kept (about 10) sound completely different with these mods/tweaks. Different=awesome.
> 
> One "wow!" and "aha!" moment was finally getting x4 RAF series + Zobel sounding as I was anticipating it should sound like, description under spoiler
> 
> ...


Well you were talking about phase and other things on this setup which I was not getting a clear gist at that time

Well I would like to have the recipe for 4xRAFseries zobel.
I have to try myself what you did actually.
I have done 4xRAB series zobel and how it differs


----------



## Ivan TT (Jun 18, 2019)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Well I would like to have the recipe for 4xRAFseries zobel.


110Ohm, 4.4uF (2x2.2uF paralleled, higher cap values compared to suggested by calculator give slightly better bass IMO).
Brown-white dampers in series for me (green or brown for most people would be preferable, I shy excessive HF).
The beauty of x2 (or x4 more so) set ups is not only in ability to push more air due to a larger surface area involved, but also in averaging of individual driver's inconsistencies, that's what makes RAB/RAF combination so sweet (actually this trick is borrowed from an obscure old school microphone technique for guitar amps, where two microphones of different character are phase-aligned and then blended; also the concept is behind a way to reduce noise/distortion by paralleling output stages in amps).


Spoiler: Rant



Strangely enough this set up is very reserved-sounding, nothing too outstanding (except for bass maybe that digs ridiculously low, closer to fast DD if such a thing ever existed), but speaking of microphones it reminds me of really strange experience ages ago when CAD Equitek E-100 first hit the market over 20 years ago ***!
When auditioning it I was like "wow! listen to these lows, listen to these highs, sparkle, just wow!" But trying to make vocals recorded through it sit well in the mix proved next to impossible, it simply did not work.
Back to good old, like REALLY old U87 (oh well recorded via top-grade Focusrite preamp), no worries: vocal sits tight, floats in front of you, responds well to a touch of EQ. E100 was over-hyped and impressive, but it was actually its major weakness; U87 did not have all the ear-candy but just bloody worked and delivered.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

@Ivan TT

Rz = 165ohms
Cz = 1.15uF(1uF + 100nF + 50nF)

4xRAF series is what I am calculating



4.4uF cap and bigger will lead to over damping or bottlenecking. Qes will get weird on your conditions.

Try above values though, just a recommendation from me


----------



## wolkegeist

I followed @dhruvmeena96 advice and made a RAB-p + EST with shared zobel and 1uF in series with EST
Here are the tubing and circuit, now just need to out them in a shell lol.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

wolkegeist said:


> I followed @dhruvmeena96 advice and made a RAB-p + EST with shared zobel and 1uF in series with EST
> Here are the tubing and circuit, now just need to out them in a shell lol.


Do make sure to start tuning EST from 1uF and then go lower by taste

Once got the perfect highs, then finish the project

Well, how is RAB-p fitting inside the metal nozzle. I was thinking it is quite near impossible to get the 3mm ID horn out of multi nozzle metal tubes


And RAB32033 would have been more better though due to smoother upper midrange


----------



## eunice

dhruvmeena96 said:


> 1mm ID tube on CI with three yellow dampers.


Where did you add the yellow dampers?


----------



## wolkegeist

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Do make sure to start tuning EST from 1uF and then go lower by taste
> 
> Once got the perfect highs, then finish the project
> 
> ...


I put the 2ID 3OD tube into the 1ID 2OD tube, and heat shrink on top of 1ID 2OD tube, it form a perfect size for the nozzle. And the other one, I just squeeze it in .

Btw is 43ohm on zobel work?


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jun 18, 2019)

eunice said:


> Where did you add the yellow dampers?


You know the old technique of adding dampers, by placing damper in bigger tube ring and then tight fitting smaller ID tubes.

Near BA spout
10mm from spout
15mm from spout

All dampers are yellow
tube length is 20mm




@eunice I tried orange damper on ED30761. I think you were right, as it made the upper mids sweet. Female vocals are ethereal. So velvety....something like effortless

@wolkegeist
41ohms and 4.6uF

43 ohms will be under damping and create ringing issues

For RAB-p
The horn in the end is important
3mm ID 3mm length horn in the end

I am asking about that


----------



## wolkegeist

dhruvmeena96 said:


> @wolkegeist
> 41ohms and 4.6uF
> 
> 43 ohms will be under damping and create ringing issues
> ...


Does 4.7uF in zobel work? I don’t want to wire a lot of caps here so I just put in a 4.7uF cap


----------



## dhruvmeena96

wolkegeist said:


> Does 4.7uF in zobel work? I don’t want to wire a lot of caps here so I just put in a 4.7uF cap


Yes it will work


----------



## eunice

wolkegeist said:


> Does 4.7uF in zobel work? I don’t want to wire a lot of caps here so I just put in a 4.7uF cap


I have a multimeter that can measure capacitance to 1% accuracy and those 10% tolerance 0805 4.7uF ceramic caps. They are cheap and easily range from 4.5uF to 4.9uF.

I measured a bunch of them and sorted them according to their real value. That way I know I have similar values for left/right and also access to 4.6uF caps.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Ivan TT said:


> Maharishi? (nod to @dhruvmeena96 )


In India, that would be the most cliché name ever....seriously...
People would get cringy goosebumps...hahahha

How about this
Reference mk1


----------



## wolkegeist

Does anyone know where I could get the Sonion electrostatic tweeter? I can't seem to find any source yet. And what is the price for a pair?


----------



## eunice

dhruvmeena96 said:


> How about this
> Reference mk1


It's your work, you name it. I'ld prefer a reference to an earlier name for those catching up on this thread, that's why I think "finale 2" is a good name, as the previous version has been called that. But it's your baby, you name it


----------



## dhruvmeena96

eunice said:


> It's your work, you name it. I'ld prefer a reference to an earlier name for those catching up on this thread, that's why I think "finale 2" is a good name, as the previous version has been called that. But it's your baby, you name it


Well, you named MASM

And I like Finale

Finale series

Finale 1 - project coming soon(damper less, self damping structure... Patent)

Dual RAB, new way of making dual RAB


Finale 2 - sonion 2354 and ED30761

Finale 2 reference - FED  and ED30761

Finale 3 - Finale 2 with CI22955

Pro 1 - RAB-p 32033

Pro 1 ultimate - FFC 26795 + resonator + horn(zobel is in work)

Pro 2- GQ30710 + resonator + horn(zobel is in work)

Ultimate series - MASM series


Ultimate reference - RAB 32063
Ultimate balanced - RAB 32033
Ultimate spark - RAB 32257
Ultimate exite - RAF
Ultimate flagship - RAB 32033 + resonator

Well, I am starting a company soon now


Name of company would be Reference Acoustics Labs(RAL) with my friend here.


----------



## eunice (Jun 19, 2019)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Well, you named MASM



You called it that (most amazing set for mom), I just used it as a title. You shortened it to MASM. "finale" is also something you came up with and I'm just repeating it.

I would not name one of your projects, I do respect your work


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jun 19, 2019)

eunice said:


> you called it that (most amazing set for mom), I just used it as a title. You shortened it to MASM.  I would not name one of your projects, I do respect your work


Its okay....you can

MASM is still one of the greatest name. It sounds cool

Ultimate series would be different from MASM with some slight electrical and tuning.. I mean slight but noticeable

You all guys can name DIY projects anything you want. Seriously I dont have any issues. It would save me time actually and make chatting and discussion much easier with abbreviated names. I am bad at making names



Finale 3 update

Jackson Wang oxygen DSD, neurochrome HP1 amplifier low gain, JDS labs element DAC.


Godly soudstage, Godly image. This thing can really portray the hollowness. Its like listening to the black space, recording echoes, synthesizer shifts


Speechless(Naomi Scott)
I am speechless. The vocals are just out of world by FED. FED or ferrofluid drivers are the diamonds of Knowles. I think if you offer me sonion EST and FED, I would take FED any day.

FED mids are just crazy.

14mm planar, Stax SR009 and my Audeze LCD4 cannot reach this crazy mid detail. Her voice, breathing, vibrato....I mean everything sounds so nice and at the same time. I think j can hear multiple details at the same time.

This feeling last came when I equalised my KZ ES4 to utter flat etymotic er4 like(crinacle graph as reference) and less 2kHz and 4kHz. Multiple Instruments and vocal in same time. But FED outclassed my ES4 in the crazy details

Finale 3 is crazy


Finale 4 would be Finale 3 with EST and a calculated high pass


@eunice


----------



## eunice

I am currently building Finale 3, since I really like Finale 2. It is crazy good, but I made a small mistake in the tubing, it's not sealed so I hear a plopping noise every now and then. Turns out just pulling the tube around the driver and applying some glue is not enough, you have to seal with glue. Otherwise the pressure differential that can build up in a CIEM while listening can create a plopping sound.



Anyway, the FED drivers really do open another level. If I may use a TV comparison: BS6+Zobel is the one with intense and vibrant colours you immediately notice in the shopping window. Finale 2 in comparison is not as intense, not as bright but as soon as you look closely you see the colors are much more natural and precise. The BS6 + Zobel is still very good, so vibrant and so much fun, but it's just a tad bit over emphasizing certain aspects.


----------



## Xymordos

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Its okay....you can
> 
> MASM is still one of the greatest name. It sounds cool
> 
> ...



Ooh, where did you get your FED drivers, I'd like to try playing around with them. They aren't available on mouser.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Xymordos said:


> Ooh, where did you get your FED drivers, I'd like to try playing around with them. They aren't available on mouser.


Mouser India

Out of stock now

They stock every month in limited supply..
Wait for july


----------



## IvanNOON

Are there any good alternatives to ARTA + LIMP?


----------



## eunice

Xymordos said:


> Ooh, where did you get your FED drivers, I'd like to try playing around with them. They aren't available on mouser.


Mouser has a stock of 4 drivers, I bought all of them. 
They have ordered 4 more as per their website. 


IvanNOON said:


> Are there any good alternatives to ARTA + LIMP?


I use RoomEqWizard and I like it.


----------



## eunice

5 are back in stock (product image and datasheet are not correct):
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail...9QyMQ/d0qhQ==&countrycode=DE&currencycode=EUR


----------



## Xymordos

eunice said:


> Mouser has a stock of 4 drivers, I bought all of them.
> They have ordered 4 more as per their website.
> 
> I use RoomEqWizard and I like it.



The heck, why do they only stock 4 at a time LOL


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jun 20, 2019)

Xymordos said:


> The heck, why do they only stock 4 at a time LOL


https://www.i-components.com/components/Knowles/FED-30048-I04.html

http://www.seltech-international.com/fed-30048-i04


Ask these guys...they have all drivers

Experimenting with Knowles EJ-23026

It is a dual ED single spout driver which has a frequency response like ED29689.

I will break its series connection, make it parallel, then Add a 50 ohm resistor.

Tubing would be 2mm ID(8.5mm length) with green damper after 6mm lenght

Since etymotic calculated impedance at 500Hz, 50ohms makes sense.

I will see what happens if we have a dual driver etymotic style sound



Other project is revisiting dual RAB(@Ivan TT do read this)

Dual parallel zobel

The config is divided in five parts, and is still simple to make(intermediate level)

I will send schematics by today

But here is the theory

Two RAB will fire in resonator at different tube length, so they cancel 6kHz(wavelength reversing tube length) in ripple effect.

Then inside that same resonator, a small tube will be extend out and fire inside the same resonator to kill 3kHz peak at reduced strength

Then the whole sound would be collected inside another resonator and then fired to a horn structure.

1. Frequency dependent inverting driver topology

2. Frequency dependent inverting variable length tubing topology

3. Buffer resonator

4. Muffling resonator

5. Stepped horn



Best part is no damper, and due to variable length tubing and variable driver length, intended frequency do cancel, and the other frequency gets time delay, which increases the sense of space and out of world soundstage


Upping the game.....of homemade IEM

@eunice
@Xymordos 
@Choy Wei De
@DannyBouwhuis
@ForceMajeure 
@IvanNOON


----------



## RAFAEL DOUGLAS MARTINS (Jun 20, 2019)

I want to thank everyone, because I learned a lot from you, and today I want to share, a measuring instrument that I created myself, an EMI meter, I hope to help everyone, just as you help me, I use the Smaart program and capito to sound with Pink Noise, with him I have a very good dedication, I want to thank #eunice for the tips that were through them that I could mount my meter, I still need the help of my friends, because I have a lot to learn from you


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jun 20, 2019)

RAFAEL DOUGLAS MARTINS said:


> I want to thank everyone, because I learned a lot from you, and today I want to share, a measuring instrument that I created myself, an EMI meter, I hope to help everyone, just as you help me, I use the Smaart program and capito to sound with Pink Noise, with him I have a very good dedication, I want to thank #eunice for the tips that were through them that I could mount my meter, I still need the help of my friends, because I have a lot to learn from you



It feels like a Knowles standard measuring unit

Well done bro.....so now we got a homemade mic as per our calibrations..

Nice




Design is ready.

Finale 1

28mm tubing dampens the 6kHz of 7mm tubing. But due to long structure damping, the effect of damping decreases...so it is like slight damping filter, to the exact need.

The 56mm tubing targets the 3kHz peak. This makes the 3Hz more tame(long tube and smaller ID rolls off, which make the 3kHz strength lower than main tube, which controls the ability to cancel, so it act as a damper within it self.

Twin resonator is used for mixing phases, muffling peaks and creating a decay(natural echo artificially). Plus it helps in variable insertion depth in universal IEM, as it averages the peaks into smaller single broad peak.

Finally RAB-p famous horn structure

No dampers....

Parallel with zobel

RAB32063.



Why I am using closed BA. Because this much of tubing and structure if coupled with bass can lead to bass overhaul.

I want a straight line response with rising treble after 9kHz in BA.

I was late at posting, as I got blackening of gums due to heavy metal tartar build up(old medicine poison coming up....really old medicine when I was admitted).

Design is ready, did the simulation

Now its turn to make it real


Well I have patented it.
Can use for Homemade IEM, but please dont manufacture it.

It is for science purposes only and for understanding and education purposes

And I am a solo guy right now....so I can post anything for now...no company obligation


----------



## eunice

Nice of you, thanks for sharing. Tell us how it sounds.

If anyone interested: I had that plopping sound again on the FED. Turns out it is the flux paste in the vent hole causing it! Just touched it with a toothpick so the hole is clear and the plopping sound went away.

Also a big heads-up to everyone using the ED-30761: It has a vent hole that is so small that it is not visible by eye. At least I can't see it without magnification. But it is there and must not be covered. (See datasheet for exact location). Doesn't help that the ED-30761 datasheet is hard to find, but soundlink has the relevant parts in the product description.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

eunice said:


> Nice of you, thanks for sharing. Tell us how it sounds.
> 
> If anyone interested: I had that plopping sound again on the FED. Turns out it is the flux paste in the vent hole causing it! Just touched it with a toothpick so the hole is clear and the plopping sound went away.
> 
> Also a big heads-up to everyone using the ED-30761: It has a vent hole that is so small that it is not visible by eye. At least I can't see it without magnification. But it is there and must not be covered. (See datasheet for exact location). Doesn't help that the ED-30761 datasheet is hard to find, but soundlink has the relevant parts in the product description.


Hahahaha. ... Hahahaga

Bad flux day
Bad flux...but its okay

It will sound something like Audeze headphones according to simulated graph.

Something like LCD2 classic
Dark velvety, grand life-like near vocals, and crazy stage
Image is compromised
Details are preserved

Total audiophile, not meant for mixing and mastering like Finale 2 and Finale 3

Finale 2 is neutral

Finale 3 takes best of both

But who knows, ears are better judge.


----------



## RAFAEL DOUGLAS MARTINS (Jun 20, 2019)

Hi everyone, I am doing some tests and I would like the help of you, I am doing the joining of two drivers, the yellow one and a driver and the green and another driver, these measures were made separately

the frequency where it is circled in red is having the same frequency that they intersect, I am not reversing the polarity of the drivers







so when I put the two drivers together and do the measurement where it is circled in red is a very big hole, you can help me because this is happening, and how to solve it







Why is this happening? , the bass driver I'm using the low pass RC circuit and the other I'm not using anything

more independent of the low pass RC circuit happens the same way, and just taking frequency crossing or equalityat any point of two driver gets this hole


----------



## eunice

This is a phase issue. So if two drivers with the same frequency are out of phase, they cancel each other out.


----------



## RAFAEL DOUGLAS MARTINS (Jun 20, 2019)

how to solve this?


----------



## eunice (Jun 20, 2019)

RAFAEL DOUGLAS MARTINS said:


> how to solve this?



Short (non-helping) answer: adjust tubing, change RC filter or wire one of the drivers in reverse.

Long answer, not knowing your background I try to start from scratch. Imagine a sound wave as alternating high and low air pressure regions traveling through the inside of the tubes. If two drivers create the same frequency at the same volume and at the same time and both soundwaves travel through the same tubes (same length, diameter and so on) at the end of the tubes the soundwaves will be in phase. That means if you have high pressure region exiting one tube you will also have a high pressure region exiting the other tube. Both high pressure regions will add up. 
The result is the sound of both drivers is twice as loud as one driver.

If a high pressure region arrives at the end of one tube while there is a low pressure region at the end of other tube at the same time, the two drivers cancel out. The result is the sound of both drivers together is silence, even though both drivers are playing.

On the electrical side you can flip the phase by reversing polarity (180 degree phase shift for every frequency), and phase is influenced by RC filters. RC filters have no phase shift for frequencies they let pass and approach 90degree shift towards the block band. Other things also influence phase like the inductance of the coil in the driver you are using.

On the acoustical side the phase is influenced by the length the signal travels (the phase shift depends on the frequency!) and other factors like resonators, dampers, horns and so on. There is tons of material to be found for speaker enclosures and very little about IEMs. But you get an idea.

Next the air pressure at the nozzle of the drivers influences the electrical impedance of the driver and therefore there is a feedback of the acoustical properties back into the electrical properties of the IEM

So how to solve?

Some use complex and expensive physics simulation software to calculate the phase ( @dhruvmeena96 for example) others use trial & error and again others try to build existing recipes from this thread to get a feeling for what can be done and what sounds good. That’s where I am at. I built 20 different CIEM and still don’t feel like trying my own designs.

Welcome at the entrance of a very very deep rabbit hole.


----------



## Lucas Taboada

eunice said:


> I have a multimeter that can measure capacitance to 1% accuracy and those 10% tolerance 0805 4.7uF ceramic caps. They are cheap and easily range from 4.5uF to 4.9uF.
> 
> I measured a bunch of them and sorted them according to their real value. That way I know I have similar values for left/right and also access to 4.6uF caps.



Do you know if there's any type of capacitor that are more accurate and don't need this process of measuring it?


----------



## Lucas Taboada (Jun 20, 2019)

To everyone who uses 2pin connectors, how do you cut your shells to fit the connector? I don't really like cutting it by hand with dremel, I think it is very imprecise.

---

@dhruvmeena96 do you have your designs organized somewhere? it is becoming very difficult to find it here in the thread, and knowing which one is more recent/better etc... If you don't, I think it would be awesome if we could make a document with specified design recipes that we like from here.

---

I'm still searching for a good universal shell to prototype that fits at least 2 large tubes and is easy to assemble and disassemble, to make some changes and listen, any tips


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Lucas Taboada said:


> To everyone who uses 2pin connectors, how do you cut your shells to fit the connector? I don't really like cutting it by hand with dremel, I think it is very imprecise.
> 
> ---
> 
> ...


Yes I have it in my copy

And you can find MASM on google image search. It, by mistake became one of the searched thing.

I will post everything on wikia soon though


----------



## eunice

Lucas Taboada said:


> Do you know if there's any type of capacitor that are more accurate and don't need this process of measuring it?


The small SMD ceramics with 1uF - 4.7uF all have 10% AFAIK. On mouser you can easily search for tolerances.

But for Zobel, 10% on the caps might be good enough anyways and no need for measuring.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jun 21, 2019)

I am going to upload a better understandable and approachable schematic

Since my mouth is not paining me that much

And I am ditching dual RAB for triple RAB32063 for ease of use and better tuning capabilities and formulaes

Since I can control individual 2 point of frequency


----------



## MuZo2

Is TIA open BA proprietary? havent seen anyone else using open BA..


----------



## dhruvmeena96

MuZo2 said:


> Is TIA open BA proprietary? havent seen anyone else using open BA..


Unique melody new IEM


----------



## MuZo2

@dhruvmeena96 what are your thoughs on tubes and resonance?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

MuZo2 said:


> @dhruvmeena96 what are your thoughs on tubes and resonance?



Tia Drivers are good. Deloading the acoustic resistance due to 5th or 6th order speaker cabinet(yes speaker are like that, and making them normal 1st order to 2nd order. This way, any one can extract more mid range and treble and tune to preferences.

It makes BA very fast(I mean very very fast) and somewhat makes electrical phase flat and easy to integrate in design.

It acts something in between planar and ribbon speaker to be exact.


But Tia design on shell is very hard and has no added benefit(if any, that would be peak less output and less overall acoustic load per driver reducing distortion by 10%). But the same can be done with slightly more driver and better FR matched tuning.

Tia Fourté is a IEM where they save a lot of bucks due to better engineering. Consumer are paying for science behind it.

I have listened to it. Its spacious and smooth, bit it doesnt feel BA like sharp. I feel I am lacking the imaging. I think they are near the true TIA concept but it needs some crazy Finite element calculation for each and every curve and behaviour of speaker in certain geometry of TIA.(they sound slightly hollow and distant too...but in a good way)

I have 64audio U12T and Tia driver works flawlessly good.

You dont have to open the whole BA though, just open. The front enough to get most of diaphragm radiating.

Unique melody iem is partial top open to make it act like a BA but also have same electrical plot to normal speaker so they can use it normally like a normal BA and get simplified calculation for precise crossover.


They are good, but simple engineering and science with right mindset and calculation can achieve same thing.


----------



## wolkegeist

dhruvmeena96 said:


> It feels like a Knowles standard measuring unit
> 
> Well done bro.....so now we got a homemade mic as per our calibrations..
> 
> ...


Does RAB 32257 works the same way with this design. I’m curious because I have 2 pair pf 32257 now


----------



## dhruvmeena96

wolkegeist said:


> Does RAB 32257 works the same way with this design. I’m curious because I have 2 pair pf 32257 now


It will, but bass deviation and increase in bass with some crazy decay would happen.

Wait I am uploading more universal design for headfi ERS to make.

3driver (seriously any RAB) and can make tune it the way you like...

I will provide formulaes and ease of building


----------



## wolkegeist

dhruvmeena96 said:


> It will, but bass deviation and increase in bass with some crazy decay would happen.
> 
> Wait I am uploading more universal design for headfi ERS to make.
> 
> ...


Thanks for you kind reply. I’m interseted in these damper-less design because I’m quite short on damper and ordering just a pair of damper from taobao is such a pain. I also found some fake APEX model, will it make any changes to the sound?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

wolkegeist said:


> Thanks for you kind reply. I’m interseted in these damper-less design because I’m quite short on damper and ordering just a pair of damper from taobao is such a pain. I also found some fake APEX model, will it make any changes to the sound?


It may and it may not

The only advantages of these module for me were slight bass SQ and that deafening air suction thingie which you open it by pinching nose and releasing air from ear.

Damperless are superior in everything, just hard to predict the effect of ripple cancellation effect.

Bass sound tight, treble becomes airier and midrange is stunning beyond words

Finale 2 defeats focal Utopia in midrange treble detail. A iem beating worlds best headphone by tyll


----------



## MuZo2

@dhruvmeena96 is there a place where all your designs can be found in one place. At the moment its scattered in this thread somewhere.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Hope you guys get it

And always end these design with resonator as it helps in ear drum and canal impedance mismatch


As ripple design can create trouble with fitting issues


----------



## wolkegeist

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Hope you guys get it
> 
> And always end these design with resonator as it helps in ear drum and canal impedance mismatch
> 
> ...


One small question but how do you guys fit thatmuch of tube into a shell? Do we even need bigger shell?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

wolkegeist said:


> One small question but how do you guys fit thatmuch of tube into a shell? Do we even need bigger shell?


Yes you will...but not by much

Taobao has some semi custom big shell maker for cheap(very cheap)

Even aliexpress has(35$ a pair) which is expensive.

But yup


And did you read the theory

I hope I wrote it simple enough


----------



## wolkegeist

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Yes you will...but not by much
> 
> Taobao has some semi custom big shell maker for cheap(very cheap)
> 
> ...


Yes i understand the theory. However I need to do some more calculation because I’m gonna use the EST too. Which frequency does the EST cover tho? Above 6kHz I suppose?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

wolkegeist said:


> Yes i understand the theory. However I need to do some more calculation because I’m gonna use the EST too. Which frequency does the EST cover tho? Above 6kHz I suppose?


Above 7.4kHz


----------



## wolkegeist

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Above 7.4kHz


So if I want to dampen RAB frequency of 7.4 kHz, I need (340/7400)/2 =~23mm right? 

Then support RAB 28mm + main RAB 7mm to 4mmID resonator, then sp RAB 23mm + main RAB 7mm to 3mmID resonator, then RAB-p horn.
E25ST in parallel with 940uF cap in series.
And zobel in parallel.
I think I’m gonna drill a larger hole in the multi hole nozzle to fit 3 ID tube for RAB-p horn. I hope it works


----------



## dhruvmeena96

wolkegeist said:


> So if I want to dampen RAB frequency of 7.4 kHz, I need (340/7400)/2 =~23mm right?
> 
> Then support RAB 28mm + main RAB 7mm to 4mmID resonator, then sp RAB 23mm + main RAB 7mm to 3mmID resonator, then RAB-p horn.
> E25ST in parallel with 940uF cap in series.
> ...


Yup...
But its still dual bore

From RAB horn and EST


----------



## wolkegeist

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Yup...
> But its still dual bore
> 
> From RAB horn and EST


What do you mean by dual bore? 
Btw where do you guys get the electrostatic tweeter tho


----------



## dhruvmeena96

wolkegeist said:


> What do you mean by dual bore?
> Btw where do you guys get the electrostatic tweeter tho


One tube ending toward the ear from three RAB or more

One from EST



EST tweeter can be ordered from colsan micro
FED driver can ordered from mouser if lucky
Or seltech international


----------



## ForceMajeure

Dhruv is on fire lol. I haven't checked that thread for a few days and now I feel like I am back to school with those text book notes 

I am half lost between all the designs that were posted.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jun 22, 2019)

ForceMajeure said:


> Dhruv is on fire lol. I haven't checked that thread for a few days and now I feel like I am back to school with those text book notes
> 
> I am half lost between all the designs that were posted.


It was first pioneered by ocharaku(tube phase cancelling)
Makoto yamagishi sensei

I read his paper, but it was all stated at cancelling single point and he didn't take the consideration of ripple effect of continuous cancelling and construction

But I inspected it closer and found out that it behaves something like newton ring and Thomas young double slit experiment.

Strongest point in center, then lower in quantity yet stronger reverse point, followed by energy loss to other point.

And then the effect of longer tube and difference of ID.

It gave me a tonne of variable(independent frequency variable and strongly dependent frequency, effect of decay etc)


And ocharaku use to tune the iem with specific tip. But if he would have added a resonator, all the dips and peak would have been smoothened out, so insertion depth variable would have been lowered and more smoother approach to sound would have been possible.



LOL


Have fun designing IEM(I just made it more complex)



Now the interesting part.

Recently I was reading the effect of ferrofluid and natural crossover.

Well it is related to natural crossover

And I was thinking of cheaper Savant

RAB32063 as ED29689
RAB32037 as ED30761

Now the catch is that 32063 peaks at 3kHz instead of 2kHz
RAB32037 peaks at 2.5kHz( ED29689 + 20ohms) instead of 3kHz

So how should I damp it, to get the same kind of response savant had


Plus I have inductance for both of the driver. Plus both are sealed driver, so they will be fast as heck

So that would be fun



Update(the above is valid, this is a new design)


RAB32066
RAB32063

Both driver share same 1.2mm tube stretched and the config end as resonator and horn like RAB-p

Damper is brown


Zobel circuit for Parallel full range

Rz = 28.5ohms
Cz = 6.5uF


----------



## ForceMajeure (Jun 22, 2019)

I have read that ochokaru article a while back.
I personally was thinking of 3dprinting a tubing system with double output from the spout. one output would be spiraling over the straight one, so it arrives at a different phases an allow to control some peaks and dips I would like to tame.
the thing is that it's complicated stuff and would need an stl printer to get the tubing system right. then I would need to spend a few months to dial things in probably lol

also I would need to see if using one driver only with this kind of system will still allow for enough spl 


so for the time being I gave up on that idea


----------



## dhruvmeena96

ForceMajeure said:


> I have read that ochokaru article a while back.
> I personally was thinking of 3dprinting a tubing system with double output from the spout. one output would be spiraling over the straight one, so it arrives at a different phases an allow to control some peaks and dips I would like to tame.
> the thing is that it's complicated stuff and would need an stl printer to get the tubing system right. then I would need to spend a few months to dial things in probably lol
> so for the time being I gave up on that idea


It can be done with normal tubes also though


----------



## ForceMajeure

dhruvmeena96 said:


> It can be done with normal tubes also though


yes, at least for the testing just connecting straight tubes. but I would be constrained with standard diameters tubing and it would take more space


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jun 22, 2019)

ForceMajeure said:


> yes, at least for the testing just connecting straight tubes. but I would be constrained with standard diameters tubing and it would take more space


Then, add a resonator inside

Fire all sound inside the Huge AF resonator and then use a carry tube to shoot sound to the ears

What I said, that ocharaku didn't made the peak average out, which lead to weirdness with different tips and different insertion.

And best part is that you can have all cancellation and addition of phase on resonator itself


----------



## DannyBouwhuis

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Then, add a resonator inside
> 
> Fire all sound inside the Huge AF resonator and then use a carry tube to shoot sound to the ears
> 
> ...



Could you post a link to that article ? I'd like to read it


----------



## dhruvmeena96

DannyBouwhuis said:


> Could you post a link to that article ? I'd like to read it


https://earphonia.com/interviews/interview-makoto-yamagishi-ocharaku-corporation/


It has all patent paper number

Go search them and translate


----------



## DannyBouwhuis

dhruvmeena96 said:


> https://earphonia.com/interviews/interview-makoto-yamagishi-ocharaku-corporation/
> 
> 
> It has all patent paper number
> ...



Thanks dhruv !!


----------



## dhruvmeena96

DannyBouwhuis said:


> Thanks dhruv !!


US 8885865 B2

US 8660288 B2

These two are the papers


----------



## dhruvmeena96

I have heard that there are 3 type of ferrofluid damping

1. Coil structure
2. Motor structure
3. Total immersion

FED is coil structure damping
FFC, because it III damping, to compensate the III bass damping, was I guess done to motor structure level

Total immersion driver are custom ordered for natural crossover(limiting driver frequency extension)

FFC is faster than FED..... And I mean tight, fast. Its like lightning. Boosted bass doesnt decay. It rumbles and stop there. Midrange is crazy fast

Songs feel like they or on 1.2x speed, which feels weird

FED is like 1.1x speed but damm that treble(I once wrote that treble was missing, but I considered damping then). Without damper, it blows away SWFK treble by miles. 


Now I was going through this new thought

Most of the BA are 4th order cabinet and 6th order cabinet.
And BA produce high SPL, while the thickness of BA wall are very thin plus they are made out of metal.

This can be a problem. I was thinking of coating the BA with rubber like material, so metal body gets damped


This is all for experiments. I think it would clear up the bass and treble


----------



## DannyBouwhuis (Jun 22, 2019)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> I have heard that there are 3 type of ferrofluid damping
> 
> 1. Coil structure
> 2. Motor structure
> ...



You should try to coat them with liquid latex, its cheap and easy to remove if necessary, I used it to make some molds a while back and I think it's perfect for that.

Perhaps you should revisit the savant again, but swap the ed for a bass boosted ffc

How far does the fr of the fed extent ? On the papers they only go until 8khz..


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jun 22, 2019)

DannyBouwhuis said:


> You should try to coat them with liquid latex, its cheap and easy to remove if necessary, I used it to make some molds a while back and I think it's perfect for that.
> 
> Perhaps you should revisit the savant again, but swap the ed for a bass boosted ffc


ED cannot be swapped with FFC

Because FFC peaks at 3kHz

And we need fullranger to peak at 2kHz

FED in Final 2(Savant final old name) with ED30761 is faster than planar magnetic headphones. Its faster than standalone FFC.
It is like 1.3x speed without pitch shift.

I will try coating a plate of aluminum with liquid latex first to check if it dampens the ringing of plate.

I am thinking of using tufkote tufclad or speaydead liquid based(non diluted) with brush on BA.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Hmmmm

I Have 2 x CI-22955 and a ED29689.

Does anybody have a balanced tuning for this type of setup.


----------



## eunice

dhruvmeena96 said:


> This can be a problem. I was thinking of coating the BA with rubber like material, so metal body gets damped


I can tell you that filling up the ear canal and immerse part of the driver in resin does reduce distortion a lot. 

You have to pay attention to the vents of the drivers though, some ED have an almost invisible vent that needs to stay open.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

eunice said:


> I can tell you that filling up the ear canal and immerse part of the driver in resin does reduce distortion a lot.
> 
> You have to pay attention to the vents of the drivers though, some ED have an almost invisible vent that needs to stay open.


Moi doing universal set on cheap alibaba/aliexpress shells

Now tell

Resin are dammmmm expensive and I have wasted a lot. So no more customs for me until or unless I get someone who makes custom here in India

Resin filling

Well I cannot do with any of my setup

All have some vents here and there

Hmmmmmm


----------



## dhruvmeena96

I prefer this type of tuning but everything after 1kHz should be dropped by 2dB.

And bass boost should be after 150Hz and going up to 85dB on this graph at its end point.

And filling up the treble roll off at 10kHz and above to the level of dB where 2kHz is playing...


This is my preference and my improvement over Harman kardon tuning


----------



## eunice (Oct 31, 2019)

I tried Finale 2 (ED + FED) vs. Finale 3 (ED + FED + CI) vs. BS6 + Zobel

For a start, they are all phenomenally good.

BS6: Still best bass, slight inaccuracies in mids but very good highs.

Finale 2: The silkiest and most accurate reproduction I have ever heard. Slight bass roll-off below ~50Hz.

Finale 3: Bass is back in volume compared to Finale 2, but bass is slower and with less impact than on BS6. Sometimes the bass slightly boomy.
I guess I don't like the CI bass, I have not liked the bass in any of the CI builds so far.

But most importantly Finale 3 looses some of the perfection of Finale 2 in mids/highs. Maybe the CI bleeds into the higher frequencies or the low impedance kills it. This effect is very amp dependent.
On the small dragonfly black the difference in mids and highs between Finale 2 and Finale 3 is not as strong as on my Audio-GD NFB-11.

But, the most ridiculous thing happens with the dragonfly on iPhone: at 01:54 in https://tidal.com/browse/track/45717895 exactly when a big orchestral hit is supposed to play, the dragonfly resets itself. Every time for a normal listening volume.



This is how I rank Finale 2/Finale 3 and BS6 on my phone with Dragonfly black

- Portishead - numb https://tidal.com/browse/track/1765483
 1) Finale 3, 2) BS6, 3) Finale 2
- Yosi Horikawa - Letter https://tidal.com/browse/track/15666684
1) Finale 3, Shared 2) BS6 and Finale 2

- Minnesota Orchestra - Samson et dalia, Op 47: Bacchanale https://tidal.com/browse/track/45717895
1) Finale 2, 2) BS6, 3) Finale 3

- Billie Eilish - Bad Guy https://tidal.com/browse/track/106538979

1) BS6, 2) Finale 2, 3) Finale 3

- Postmodern Jukebox Haley Reinhart - Black Hole sun https://tidal.com/browse/track/97251270

1) Finale 2, 2) Finale 3, 3) BS6

- Savages - Husbands https://tidal.com/browse/track/19927133

1) BS6, 2) Finale 2, 3) Finale 3

- Dense and Picka - Hands up (Acid Mix) https://tidal.com/browse/track/105792701

1) BS6, 2) Finale 2, 3) Finale 3

So the jury is still out on what's best, but there is room to improve the Finale design.

And for all of you trying to decide what to build, Finale 3 is the hardest and most expensive I have built so far. Three bore CIEM, ridiculous tubing/damper setup (5 dampers!), it brought me to my limits. I had a slightly oval tube on one of the FED and the sound was noticeably different on one side.

Price, build complexity together with the amp dependent sound is kinda the reason I would not suggest building the Finale 3. Finale 2 and BS6+Z are very safe bets. BS6+Z as the best allrounder and Finale 2 as the best accuracy with a very good DAC/Amp.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jun 22, 2019)

eunice said:


> I tried Finale 1 (ED + FED) vs. Finale 2 (ED + FED + CI) vs. BS6 + Zobel
> 
> For a start, they are all phenomenally good.
> 
> ...


I was able to improve it though

CI-22960(100ohm version)
Dual yellow damped instead of three.
Software didn't show the lag

I was able to hear the bass lag in certain tracks

Well you can use high impedance BK also(for tight punchy bass hit)
CI-22960
HODVTEC with zobel, L-pad damping, and added series resistance with single yellow damper

The ultimate is Sonion 38D1XJ007Mi/8a with one yellow damper.

Its fast




Final 2 is dual driver FED and ED
Final 3 is triple driver.
Final 1 is a project going on(I have to make it single driver)


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jun 23, 2019)

Elnurjin said:


> Hello guys. Did anyone use RAB-32257 (Bellsing) and GK-31732 together? Did anyone have experience in reworking the crossover for this stuffing?


It works flawlessly if you make the GK dual spot share same 2mm tube

It can go like MASM setup

With GK replacing GQ

Tubing is also same as MASM
Damping scheme is also the same

But I think MASM is better and leaner


And if possible, add a SWFK at 9kHz



Update 1:

RAB32063( non bassy non vented RAB) only supported

MASM pro tube styling

Same damper config

Everything same except GQ swapped to GK


Hmmmm

CI bass slam is above RAF, RAB 32033. Soundstage is deeper and imaging is aggressive.

Liking it till now.

Orignal MASM pro extends more and has relaxed but accurate imaging


Update 2:

I am naming this MASM Renaissance experimental(car lover may know the meaning behind this name)


It has the very unique sound.

BS6 zobel + MASM pro + Sony XB90EX

Leaning more toward MASM

It has a very big bass presentation (not boosted or extended, but I think the wall of bass is big) something like SONY XB90EX

MASM like upper mids.


And the overall signature seems like BS6 + zobel


It has some of the good points from all the above mentioned IEM.

Hmmm

I will try individual damping of TWFK and CI then


Update 3:

Mom likes it

This is
Renaissance from now on.

GK
Brown damper near spout 
White damper in between
2mm ID/ 20mm length

RAB 32063
No damper
Resonator
2mm ID/16mm length
Zobel



Sound analysis:
Fun tuning, L-shape, deep subbass rumble and impact
Extremely detailed and imaging is aggressive. It wants you to listen all details rather than relaxing one, which offers you which detail you wanna pick.

Vocal are grand like. I mean, something like Audeze LCD 2 C. Female vocal are sharp

Sibilance in check. On borderline of detailed and sibilant like the MASM.

Here, I think treble is smooth and more resolving


----------



## eunice

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Well you can use high impedance BK also(for tight punchy bass hit)
> CI-22960
> HODVTEC with zobel, L-pad damping, and added series resistance with single yellow damper



Could you calculate a HODVTEC + FED or HODVTEC + FED + ED version for me?

I have HODVTEC here and I love it’s bass. I also have the Sonion 33AJ007i/9 if that would fit. Since I do not like the CI-22955 I don’t know if I should try the CI-22960. 



dhruvmeena96 said:


> Final 2 is dual driver FED and ED
> Final 3 is triple driver.
> Final 1 is a project going on(I have to make it single driver)



Oh, then I got it wrong. Sorry. I thought finale 1 is first iteration (ED+FED)


----------



## dhruvmeena96

eunice said:


> Could you calculate a HODVTEC + FED or HODVTEC + FED + ED version for me?
> 
> I have HODVTEC here and I love it’s bass. I also have the Sonion 33AJ007i/9 if that would fit. Since I do not like the CI-22955 I don’t know if I should try the CI-22960.
> 
> ...



CI22960 is high impedance CI22955 which can be damped with less dampers.
So you won't loose speed

HODVTEC is what I dont recommend though. Its lazy and slow driver(no offence)
HODVTEC will need Zobel, L-pad and then two yellow dampers

You can try Sonion 33AJ007i/9 with dual yellow
First 1/4 distance away and other at 3/4 distance away.

ED30761 is necessary though.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

To everybody who are interested in technology

Meze Audio Rai penta IEM technology demystified

The pressure equalization system is technology like APEX module or Asius filters I.e to lower ear pressure

But it doesn't use any plug and play adapters.

Its very simple technology, which works

A vent in front of DD and a vent in back of DD calculated in such a manner that when pressure returns from our ear towards the DD, it equalises the pressure between two vents.

The vent at back of DD is considerably bigger( the tri dot and fidget spinner design vent is designed to give maximum air flow with least isolation loss) then the vent in front of DD.

The vent in front of DD is like normal IEM vent, which helps in releasing direct pressure. But the back pressure let's the dynamic driver stay at certain position, plus added ear pressure from BA, can lead to pressure stagnation in ear canal, so they made the DD back vent large enough to release maximum build up pressure from back and let the DD move according to returning pressure...plus the front vent again relieves us from the stagnated pressure.

So its like convention earphone with buildup pressure release. I think it works way better than APEX and asius tech as it tries to maintain environmental pressure inside ear instead of isolation all air and making it move like spring inside ear


----------



## Kulgrinda (Jun 23, 2019)

My first finished universal IEM. Insides are GQ + RAB 32033 with zobel, really liking this setup.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jun 23, 2019)

Kulgrinda said:


> My first finished universal IEM. Insides are GQ + RAB 32033 with zobel, really liking this setup.


It looks really cool


Another science thingie

Imaging

Or sound localization

*Sound localization* is a listener's ability to identify the location or origin of a detected sound in direction and distance. It may also refer to the methods in acoustical engineering to simulate the placement of an auditory cue in a virtual 3D space (see binaural recording, wave field synthesis).

The sound localization mechanisms of the mammalian auditory system have been extensively studied. The auditory system uses several cues for sound source localization, including time- and level-differences (or intensity-difference) between both ears, spectral information, timing analysis, correlation analysis, and pattern matching.

These cues are also used by other animals, but there may be differences in usage, and there are also localization cues which are absent in the human auditory system, such as the effects of ear movements. Animals with the ability to localize sound have a clear evolutionary advantage.



And I wanted to talk about cone of confusion or hazy imaging

Most mammals are adept at resolving the location of a sound source using interaural time differences and interaural level differences. However, no such time or level differences exist for sounds originating along the circumference of circular conical slices, where the cone's axis lies along the line between the two ears.

Consequently, sound waves originating at any point along a given circumference slant height will have ambiguous perceptual coordinates. That is to say, the listener will be incapable of determining whether the sound originated from the back, front, top, bottom or anywhere else along the circumference at the base of a cone at any given distance from the ear. Of course, the importance of these ambiguities are vanishingly small for sound sources very close to or very far away from the subject, but it is these intermediate distances that are most important in terms of fitness.

These ambiguities can be removed by tilting the head, which can introduce a shift in both the amplitude and phase of sound waves arriving at each ear. This translates the vertical orientation of the interaural axis horizontally, thereby leveraging the mechanism of localization on the horizontal plane. Moreover, even with no alternation in the angle of the interaural axis (i.e. without tilting one's head) the hearing system can capitalize on interference patterns generated by pinnae, the torso, and even the temporary re-purposing of a hand as extension of the pinna (e.g., cupping one's hand around the ear).

As with other sensory stimuli, perceptual disambiguation is also accomplished through integration of multiple sensory inputs, especially visual cues. Having localized a sound within the circumference of a circle at some perceived distance, visual cues serve to fix the location of the sound. Moreover, prior knowledge of the location of the sound generating agent will assist in resolving its current location.


This is what happens in real life open environment imaging

In closed set, the imaging is decided by speaker tuning and the technical prowess. Technical prowess kinda make resolution more.......


Taking a break from building iem
(Still finalizing Final 1 driver selection)

And sharing science lesson


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Kulgrinda said:


> My first finished universal IEM. Insides are GQ + RAB 32033 with zobel, really liking this setup.


Which shells are these
I would also like to buy some


----------



## Kulgrinda

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Which shells are these
> I would also like to buy some


These are home made. Kz zsr was the inspiration, but these are adjusted to my preference. Fit is really good, they do not stick out of the ear much. Driver and wire fit was very snug. For the next pair if the same or bigger will be used I'll make a bit bigger shell, still have the original agar agar forms.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

@piotrus-g 

Wow, Man...
FIBAE 7 looks insane in specs(for me)
Dual Sub-Low, Single Low-Mid, Dual Mid-High, and Two Top-Firing Tweeters


Well....I wanted to ask about top firing tweeter

Are they top spout or something else????
Or something like TIA driver

Hmmmm


----------



## piotrus-g

dhruvmeena96 said:


> @piotrus-g
> 
> Wow, Man...
> FIBAE 7 looks insane in specs(for me)
> ...


Thanks!
Top Firing Drivers are drivers without a spout with opening on top - something like Ultimate Ears' True Tone drivers.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

piotrus-g said:


> Thanks!
> Top Firing Drivers are drivers without a spout with opening on top - something like Ultimate Ears' True Tone drivers.


Hmmm
Nice


----------



## dhruvmeena96

piotrus-g said:


> Thanks!
> Top Firing Drivers are drivers without a spout with opening on top - something like Ultimate Ears' True Tone drivers.


I have a driver like that from Molex BA

But I never was able to get it to tube it.

How to do that....????


Anybody interested in Etymotic like sound but with bass rising from 100Hz till 20Hz by 10dB.

Flat from 100Hz to 1kHz(I mean the whole response is like orignal Etymotic but with subbass boosted to a good level


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jun 24, 2019)

Challenge for everyone out there
Be honest with the challenge

There is a song

Kenshi Yonezu Amen(download the FLAC or DSD) and use a good Amp and DAC with reasonably loud volume(your ear limit) and listen carefully

I must tell you, this song has one of the best vocals I have ever heard. Warnings, farty bass can damage and if not, can hide the details

Do it on your own risk and your own money

First I made them, now I am blowing them

Such a good way of utilising my monnies

It is a vocal song with very low octave running through the track all the time, which can potentially damage the IEM.

Here I am going to rate my builds in simple words

RAB-p/Pro 1 : utter fail(left side blew up)
Pro 1 signature(RAB32066 RAB-p style no damper) : passed good
Pro 1 ultimate(FFC RAB-p style no damper) : passed
Savant pro/ Pro 2 : fail(bass distorted and sounded like fart)
Pro 2 Signature (GQ30710 RAB-p style brown damper): barely passed
MASM series 32063/ Pro 3N: barely pass(borderline bass boderline fart)
Pro 3{32257) : barely passed
Pro 3E(32033) : pass grade(not excellent at all, annoying bassline)
Pro 3Spark(RAF) : barely passed
Pro 3 ultimate/MASM pro: pass grade(better than Pro3E, just slightly...resonator acting as bass buffer)
Pro 4/ MASM Renaissance exprimental : passed amazingly but was overly warm(still it didn't distorted)
Finale 2: passed somehow(it didn't produce the low end so well, so it didn't distorted as much...confused)
Finale 3: passed
BS6 zobel : Good, but still warm(better than Renaissance)
Etymotic DIY ER4p : worst, played and blew up
Etymotic DIY ER4s : passed, still like fart but it has some Bass DNA in it. The fart doesnt sound annoying like other BA fart


----------



## wolkegeist

I tried, but it’s too much tubing to fit into a shell. I think I’m gonna be back to first design, because this damper-less design is wayy to painful to put in a shell.


----------



## Xymordos

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Challenge for everyone out there
> Be honest with the challenge
> 
> There is a song
> ...



Kenshi Yonezu's songs are amazing


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jun 24, 2019)

wolkegeist said:


> I tried, but it’s too much tubing to fit into a shell. I think I’m gonna be back to first design, because this damper-less design is wayy to painful to put in a shell.


I see 3 drivers for a reason....????
What all drivers you are using

You are trying to make ripple damping


----------



## wolkegeist (Jun 24, 2019)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> I see 3 drivers for a reason....????
> What all drivers you are using
> 
> You are trying to make ripple damping


Yes I did try to make it. I read the article about the Japanese guy and did the calculation. Tried my best to do the tubing, but it’s just to long for any shell. I used RAB32257 and E25ST.

Support RAB 28mm 2mmID + main RAB 7mm 2mmID to 4mm ID resonator, then 7mm of 2mmID + 23mm of 0.5mm ID to another resonator, then RAB-p Horn. Plus E25ST for tweeter.

But it’s just doesn’t work. So I’m back to 1 RAB-p + E25ST design and saving the other RAB


----------



## dhruvmeena96

wolkegeist said:


> Yes I did try to make it. I read the article about the Japanese guy and did the calculation. Tried my best to do the tubing, but it’s just to long for any shell. I used RAB32257 and E25ST.
> 
> Support RAB 28mm 2mmID + main RAB 7mm 2mmID to 4mm ID resonator, then 7mm of 2mmID + 23mm of 0.5mm ID to another resonator, then RAB-p Horn. Plus E25ST for tweeter.
> 
> But it’s just doesn’t work. So I’m back to 1 RAB-p + E25ST design and saving the other RAB


Try damping it on 3kHz rather than 6kHz...
RAB32257 peaks at 3kHz pretty crazy


And yes it's a hard design, but worth while


----------



## wolkegeist

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Try damping it on 3kHz rather than 6kHz...
> RAB32257 peaks at 3kHz pretty crazy
> 
> 
> And yes it's a hard design, but worth while


I think this design need a specific chamber, like spiral or some sort of that. Because the tube will bend and block the sound if not in the right angle, and the damping nozzle design need a dedicated 3D print chamber for it to be small. It was so hard to do this design with simple tubing.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

wolkegeist said:


> I think this design need a specific chamber, like spiral or some sort of that. Because the tube will bend and block the sound if not in the right angle, and the damping nozzle design need a dedicated 3D print chamber for it to be small. It was so hard to do this design with simple tubing.


You can spiral the long tube in hoop a loop without creating a kink

Plus you are using 2mm ID tube/3mm OD tube(from what I can see, I can be wrong)

Use 1.2mm Tube/2mm OD
It works


But yes, its better to 3D print it.

And actually ripple damper is preety variable and using with EST can cause some greater issues

Weird treble(peakyness at weird freq like 16kHz etc)

Its better to go with RAB-p





I was experimenting with different materials for damping(to get different tonality).
I was doing washi paper experiment and the different kind have very different perspective to sound change. Common store washi paper will turn the perceived treble to be rolled off without affecting peals in upper mids.

And now about a special paper my friend tried on FH5(removed metal mesh and replaced it with punch hole washi paper)(he used 3gsm)(and I tried it)

Some of my notes:
Tosa tengujo washi paper are the thinnest paper type known to human kind. But the best part is acoustic resistance is very low with very huge surface area.

Its acoustic resistance would be too low compared to Knowles damper....but it has this big surface area which tends to do a weird thing. It levels out decay feeling from 300Hz to 2kHz.

This kinda kills all sort of ringing. Makes the mids come more near and sorta dampens the upper mids region to the border of veil (but not touching it). This made the vocal intimate and instruments to spread out(with a slight haze so all instruments sounds like mixed in)


More type of paper and other material coming up for very minor tweaking(they somewhat make the iem sound very different)


----------



## wolkegeist

dhruvmeena96 said:


> I was experimenting with different materials for damping(to get different tonality).
> I was doing washi paper experiment and the different kind have very different perspective to sound change. Common store washi paper will turn the perceived treble to be rolled off without affecting peals in upper mids.
> 
> And now about a special paper my friend tried on FH5(removed metal mesh and replaced it with punch hole washi paper)(he used 3gsm)(and I tried it)
> ...


Ohh bro I’ m an artist, I have a lot of papers to try. Watercolor, washi, tracing paper, you name it, I got it lol. Very interesting to know that I can used papers as damper.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jun 25, 2019)

wolkegeist said:


> Ohh bro I’ m an artist, I have a lot of papers to try. Watercolor, washi, tracing paper, you name it, I got it lol. Very interesting to know that I can used papers as damper.


Well I am a hobby artist too....I love to draw anime characters and manga book(used too)

OK....about washi paper...use a punch machine


OK, the guide is
Finish your iem completely with shell and everything

Punch the paper and add a very gentle tape glue on paper(on outer circle)(removable glue or pressure sensitive glue)

And stick it on earphone shell nozzle


Final audio e4000 and e5000 uses this too






OK....anybody knowledgable enough to write a crossover guide for me for full crossover building IEM

I am worried about phase shifts etc and then the tubing factors to be changed.

Adding tweeter is easy though. But what about bass crossover etc


----------



## DBaldock9

Hello all,

A couple of years ago, I began trying my hand at assembling earbuds - and have been posting in the "DIY Earbuds" thread.
Recently, I've ordered some IEM drivers & shells from Chitty's Store, and am looking forward to assembling two sets of IEMs.
I've got these drivers -
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/10m...-Pls-contact-before-ordering/32766220304.html
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/11M...emale-poison-Bass-thick-2pcs/32947544223.html
and these shells -
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/10mm-earphone-shell-Cherry-wood-mmcx-pin-pluggable/32787946986.html
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/11m...-pluggable-mmcx-pin-Rosewood/32866160879.html


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## dhruvmeena96

DBaldock9 said:


> Hello all,
> 
> A couple of years ago, I began trying my hand at assembling earbuds - and have been posting in the "DIY Earbuds" thread.
> Recently, I've ordered some IEM drivers & shells from Chitty's Store, and am looking forward to assembling two sets of IEMs.
> ...


How was the sound of the pls contact before beryllium driver..

Just asking ....hmmmm


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## DBaldock9

dhruvmeena96 said:


> How was the sound of the pls contact before beryllium driver..
> 
> Just asking ....hmmmm



They arrived in the mail on Monday.
I'll be attempting to assemble the drivers in the shells sometime during the next week.


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## dhruvmeena96

@Xymordos 

 

 

 

 




Lemme explain more efficiently

The 10mm planar is single sided magnetic array planar. So when diaphragm moves outside when reacted to magnetic field, it produces sound. But unlike dual magnetic array, has lower recovery point time. The magnet gets a little away from diaphragm then has issue to move back to orignal position. And when it has to move a little more back, the frontwave signal comes back to diaphragm, which always make it move towards the eardrum. This causes buildup pressure, intense imaging and detail but intimate stage and collapsed acoustic cavity. Planar kinda have greater overall extension which adds the HF air, but the stage is still collapsed.

I heard TinHiFi p1 planar(liked it). It is still intimate stage, but they relieve the acoustic pressure from a small vent in front.

This may fix sound issue, but not underlying planar magnet issue(it may not be an issue, but having additional benefit of faster transient and the classic planar soundstage is a welcome bonus).

 

 



A reverse horn in front and a horn at back and a pressure exchange unit will do the trick to make it faster than electrostatic drivers....


So, when diaphragm tries to push air in, it will have difficulty to move the low pressure zone(reverse horn big mouth) to high pressure zone(reverse horn small mouth). Which limits driver overall high Xmas. It act as a air brake. And the reverse horn structure helps in concentrating the sound output yet again. This leads the driver to produce sound by changing the air pressure rather than moving air. This makes the ear think the sound has expanded furthut as it is not getting forced to ear drum, but eardrum sensing the change in air movement(like an open field). The driver act as BA and planar hybrid. Or just imagine a crazy fast, big, and full range TIA driver.

The outer horn also limits the air which the driver sucks from outside when moving in front(low pressure zone to high pressure zone...its hard to suck air opposite of nature)
This also acts as an acoustic brake system. Preventing and limiting high movement and making it the diaphragm always near to the magnetic field.

Now when the diaphragm is away from magnet, and reverse wave(back movement ) signal is passed. The so called very low ear pressure wants to move back to low pressure zone near driver.
Now this act as recovery system for planar diaphragm to move back quickly to original position. The reverse horn also acts the same way and pushes air outward quickly.
This leads to better back movement and better impulse response.

To prevent the over back movement and diaphragm hitting the magnet, a apex or adel unit is installed.

This helps is lowering the pressure down significantly on both side of movements. This leads to the lowest amount of pressure buildup up on theoretical point of view and highest volume of air molecule effected in smaller compact space. Plus it makes the diaphragm move less and more ideally for same acoustic output.

So lower pressure means you can push it louder
Higher volume of air means it can driver lower at lower volume to get good enough sensitivity

And lower diaphragm movement means it would be faster and ideally means it would be having great impulse response.

So I can add a resistor to even reduce the air volume effect and make it same volume as original stock arrangement. This will make diaphragm even faster and less distorting. Then I can increase my DAP volume to listen to true bliss


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## wolkegeist

dhruvmeena96 said:


> @Xymordos
> 
> 
> Lemme explain more efficiently
> ...


oh where did you get the planar driver? I’ve been trying out taobao and ali but no luck.


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## dhruvmeena96

wolkegeist said:


> oh where did you get the planar driver? I’ve been trying out taobao and ali but no luck.


This is a concept
I wanted to share with xymordos since he has the driver

I dont have one

But this idea came to my mind when I was having pot(I know it's a bad thing, but it opens up a lot of ideas for me...I do it in controlled and self restrained way)

It works on theory
I have written that above


Also I want a pair of planar drivers

Plus I will be posting a review of all my models and @Ivan TT models while being high

Pot increases the attention and concentration to a certain thing so much that brain looses awareness of surrounding.

So room, my visuals won't be affecting the soundstage.

And soundstage do get affected by visual feed back. Go outside in park and soundstage increases in IEM. Sit inside a closed back room and soundstage collapses.

This happens with headphone too.

Carried my HD800s to my garden with amp and setup and it sounded over the top of the world

Day and lighting also effects.

So pot just eliminates the factor so I can be unbiased

I will be doing custom art FIBAE 1, FIBAE black and ety er4 too


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## Ivan TT

dhruvmeena96 said:


> So pot just eliminates the factor so I can be unbiased


HF takes a hit, like some cotton placed in ear canal.
But with this roll off your perception will become closer to the tuning I prefer  (not that I'm permanently high, just trying to emulate the effect!) even without heavier damping I use.
PS: how about a name for a set up that uses piezoelectric, "High as a kite"?


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## dhruvmeena96 (Jun 25, 2019)

Ivan TT said:


> HF takes a hit, like some cotton placed in ear canal.
> But with this roll off your perception will become closer to the tuning I prefer  (not that I'm permanently high, just trying to emulate the effect!) even without heavier damping I use.
> PS: how about a name for a set up that uses piezoelectric, "High as a kite"?




This post is funny yet honest opinion


That happens when body hits the peak of THC and CBD and goes in protection mode. Ear drum kinda compress to mute out outer volume and you can self reflect inside more carefully
Just pinch your nose and try blowing out air. To open up ears after you plug IEM. And then see how sharp the treble can be.

Well the pot topic aside...

Its nice experiment though.

I tried RAB-p/ pro 1 and I was floored, with gigantic airy soundstage. Then I tried custom Art FIBAE black(this iem when high can distort the perception of depth), it was too deep and out of my head that Andromeda cannot reach(I have tried Andromeda high).
I tried the dual series RAF right noe(I amma little high). crap the bass is deep and heart pounding. It feels like I am back in time with Sony XB1000 limited edition. The subbass can go and shake the soul, plus the mids and treble were clean. The treble was sweet and not like laser when I try something with WBFK or FK like drivers. It was smooth and forgiving. Nice euphoric sound. Didn't like RABx4 series as it didn't strung my heart. Its common tuning, but whats different is the ability to resolve (only midrange) to microscopic level. Listen to BTS feat Zara Larson a brand new day and you will get it.



And by laser, I mean screeching laser
I have heard FIBAE 1 and recently the 2, 3 and 8.2
I think @piotrus-g , you want your consumers to listen a very different part of spectrum with every IEM you design. They all are pretty different. Some wants to smack you in face with intimacy( yes that some intimacy) while remain resolving(FIBAE 3) while other wants a little more upper midrange focused neutrality(FIBAE 1) with rounded staging.

FIBAE black is undefeatable though. In high attention mode(high), FIBAE black kinda makes you think about , hmm is this the same music, why does it sound like the things are coming from far away yet near me.(hard to explain)


Now go to Final 2. crap got serious.....
Details knocked me up, slapped me. Things can go far at certain point and then come near me in another instant with a lingering air and shimmer. Some crazy wizardry going up(I dont believe I made this up). Its like FIBAE BLACK stage depth but same width and height, with pin point imaging.

Final 3 bass has this thick note in subbass, increasing the depth , making it near life-like home theatre. Watching Psycho pass s2 opening, the single guitar now sound multiple guitar with different bass guitar

Custom Art FIBAE 3: I was listening to it and I felt like, of midrange is so prominent, how does it stage better than UE RM. That's a question to piotrus-g

Now comes BS6 + zobel : it's nize. I must say nice. It has this clean yet hugging sound for some reason. I can listen to it any day anytime. Vocal have this openness and lingering echo.....
I really mean G-eazy an Halsey him an I sound fantastic. The echo build up the stage.(well every zobel iem has this nice echoic feel)

MASM pro(this my favourite and all other MASM will sit in for a while) : Audeze like Mids. Too grand and life-like. And I mean tooooo big that it feels like a tide of vocal wave bigger than headphones. Height of perception is bigger and width and depth is good enough to project holography


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## wolkegeist

Has anyone ever try piezoelectric or jvc wood driver? I tried the FW01 and it sounds phenomenon.


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## dhruvmeena96

wolkegeist said:


> Has anyone ever try piezoelectric or jvc wood driver? I tried the FW01 and it sounds phenomenon.


The taobao one....I have tried the piezoelectric one...

Its better than BA on extension but is not snappy or fast. I feel ringing..

Have you ever tried Knowles nBass petra dynamic driver. It is 32ohm smartphone looking like speaker which is hearing aid compatible compatible...

I have ordered some as they are cheaper and was thinking of using as subbass driver

Hehhhhehehehehahhahahahah


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## wolkegeist

dhruvmeena96 said:


> The taobao one....I have tried the piezoelectric one...
> 
> Its better than BA on extension but is not snappy or fast. I feel ringing..
> 
> ...



Would you kindly attach the links to those Drivers pls.


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## Xymordos

dhruvmeena96 said:


> @Xymordos
> 
> 
> Lemme explain more efficiently
> ...



Let me see if I understand this correctly - the 10mm driver only has one magnet on the backside, which means when the diaphragm gets pushed out, it does not return to the original position easily. This increases ear pressure. Your suggestion is to use a Apex-like module to equalize the pressure, and also use a reverse horn to damp the driver so it doesn't push the diaphragm out so far. 

Though I don't have an Apex module of the likes, I think I have an idea of what to do to damp the driver...


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## dhruvmeena96

Xymordos said:


> Let me see if I understand this correctly - the 10mm driver only has one magnet on the backside, which means when the diaphragm gets pushed out, it does not return to the original position easily. This increases ear pressure. Your suggestion is to use a Apex-like module to equalize the pressure, and also use a reverse horn to damp the driver so it doesn't push the diaphragm out so far.
> 
> Though I don't have an Apex module of the likes, I think I have an idea of what to do to damp the driver...


It worsen the impulse response.

Well I am optimising the design so that these many technicalities can be removed since I have a diagram for the planar(if not specification) I can simulate an ideal planar inside a shell with variable parameters and take some inference on MATLAB plot.

But if we can have specialized shell for planar, then why not.


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## Xymordos

dhruvmeena96 said:


> It worsen the impulse response.
> 
> Well I am optimising the design so that these many technicalities can be removed since I have a diagram for the planar(if not specification) I can simulate an ideal planar inside a shell with variable parameters and take some inference on MATLAB plot.
> 
> But if we can have specialized shell for planar, then why not.



I was actually thinking of trying to put two of these face to face like the Lola to see if it sounds better. But the effect of the magnetic field from the 10mm planar is around 3cm which is pretty big.


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## Slater (Jun 25, 2019)

Guys, I wanted some opinions on this.

Many budget IEMs (KZ, TRN, etc) have BA treble drivers installed right in the nozzle, directly under the nozzle/earwax screen, with no tubes or dampers at all. _*While I don't need to be reminded that this is NOT the 'right way' to build IEMs*_, it remains a fact that a large number of budget manufacturers practice this behavior whether it is the 'right way' or not. That doesn't mean something can't be done to improve the situation.

As you know, undampened BAs have undesirable treble peaks, as the driver manufacturer intends them to be dampened. Therefore, I had an idea for a possible mod that would allow an improvement to these budget IEMs (as well as DIY IEMs).

Due to the space constraints in the nozzle, the only possible way to add a damper to the driver (and still be able to fit under the nozzle/earwax screen) is as follows:

1. Obtain 1.37mm _plastic_ Knowles dampers. Why the 1.37mm plastic dampers? Because that size fits perfectly on the BA nozzle. Since I intend to use this on treble drivers (30095 as an example), I went with the often-recommended green dampers (BF-3039 Green 1500ohm).



2. Cut a small ‘slice’ of BA tubing (1.0mm ID/2.0mm OD), similar to a rubber band.


Note how incredibly small these parts are! Yes, I know I didn't cut the piece of tubing perfectly straight, but it doesn't need to be. As long as the bottom cut is as square as possible, it will fit fully on the BA nozzle.


3. Now place the plastic damper on the treble BA nozzle (this is not easy, but it is doable). _Note, I am using a bare BA assembly as a model only. This allows us to visualize what’s going on with the mod much easier._


4. Now slip the piece of BA tubing over the damper (this is not easy, as it’s a tight fit, but it is doable). Secure/seal the bottom of the tube with epoxy if needed.


5. Done. Notice that from the side, the damper is basically even with the nozzle. That means it will still fit under the nozzle/earwax screen of these budget IEMs.


Now, I am aware that Knowles designs their dampers to be placed a certain distance away from the driver nozzle (I think they recommend 8-10mm). They do, however, indicate that the dampers CAN work at a closer distance; they will just have a slightly _lower_ effective resistance. I still need to do FR measurements and testing with various damper resistances, but I think I can compensate for the lower resistance by simply installing a higher resistance damper. In other words, perhaps a red damper installed right @ the nozzle might be 'equal' to a green damper installed in the tube.



So as far as budget IEMs, this mod can be performed externally, requiring only the removal of the nozzle/earwax screen. Then, after the dampers are installed, the nozzle/earwax screen can be replaced.

Comments? Thoughts? Has anyone ever tried this?


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## dhruvmeena96 (Jun 25, 2019)

Slater said:


> Guys, I wanted some opinions on this.
> 
> Many budget IEMs (KZ, TRN, etc) have BA treble drivers installed right in the nozzle, directly under the nozzle/earwax screen, with no tubes or dampers at all. _*While I don't need to be reminded that this is NOT the 'right way' to build IEMs*_, it remains a fact that a large number of budget manufacturers practice this behavior whether it is the 'right way' or not. That doesn't mean something can't be done to improve the situation.
> 
> ...


Thanks

By this I can make MASM even better

I was using bigger dampers till now, now I can control the peaking better on GQ


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## wolkegeist

Ohh boiz and galz, I got some electrostatic tweeter, are there any recipe that I can use with it?


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## Ivan TT

wolkegeist said:


> Ohh boiz and galz, I got some electrostatic tweeter, are there any recipe that I can use with it?


Where? Please share with the community


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## wolkegeist

Ivan TT said:


> Where? Please share with the community


I email Colsan Micro Electronic, and Boiz, they’ve got it. 66.7$ for 1 unit, plus 47$ international shipping fee, which is insane, but worth lol.


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## dhruvmeena96

wolkegeist said:


> I email Colsan Micro Electronic, and Boiz, they’ve got it. 66.7$ for 1 unit, plus 47$ international shipping fee, which is insane, but worth lol.


That shipping is expensive

They did that for 30USD for India. 10pairs(for my experiments)
Hajahhabahahahababa

Vietnam has shipping issues though so I can understand.

Well that is not bulk ordering so I think you will find shipping expensive.

EST can go up to 4kHz down according to Sonion and empire ears.

First of all, electrostatic tweeters will not pair that well with BA at lower frequency response like 4kHz. 

Reason 1: distortion on very small diaphragm electrostatic increase significantly even if used as a bandpass. The physical constraint doesnt allow it that well.

Reason 2: electrostatic tweeter due to small size can actually do way better treble.

And @wolkegeist 

I think you ordered the dual EST. That is crazy expensive. And single EST is more than enough to replace SWFK Dual EST only adds headroom and dB at same effortlessness

Once you build the EST
Try listening to Yosi Horikawa 
-stars
-bubble
-crossing


The aim of EST is to produce the lingering air in such a way, that it affects the stage to expand in all direction

Big spherical stage


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## wolkegeist

dhruvmeena96 said:


> That shipping is oh yesexpensive
> 
> They did that for 30USD for India. 10pairs(for my experiments)
> Hajahhabahahahababa
> ...


Oh yes I’ve just notice I order the dual electrostatic driver. Hmmm do you have any suggestion of woofers and mid drivers? I’m thinking CI + ED (or FED if I can find it, but likely not) or sonion 3300/2300


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## eunice

wolkegeist said:


> Oh yes I’ve just notice I order the dual electrostatic driver. Hmmm do you have any suggestion of woofers and mid drivers? I’m thinking CI + ED (or FED if I can find it, but likely not) or sonion 3300/2300


5 FED in stock: https://www.mouser.de/ProductDetail/Knowles/FED-30048-I04?qs=3unH/Dqlvl99QyMQ/d0qhQ==


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## dhruvmeena96 (Jun 26, 2019)

wolkegeist said:


> Oh yes I’ve just notice I order the dual electrostatic driver. Hmmm do you have any suggestion of woofers and mid drivers? I’m thinking CI + ED (or FED if I can find it, but likely not) or sonion 3300/2300


Well I have one...

But I think

@eunice  is too rescue

FED is back

Well anybody can replace ED29689 with FED30048 because of the similarities they share

FED30048 is technically a green damped ED29689 with 20ohms internally without the acoustic resistance of a physical damper while due to concentrated and smooth magnetic field and signal flow( due to ferrofluid), just extends higher

Plus using it with CI22955 makes sense as they have sort of a near by impedance rate


I am not a crossover guy, but if you ever make one, try to cross CI at 55Hz and use a very small ID tube

That is
Rc = 100ohms
Cc = 33uF

And use a series cap to cross FED with it


And somehow remove dampers from both

That would be the most effective tuning and one of the best one so far


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## wolkegeist

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Well I have one...
> 
> But I think
> 
> ...


Hmmm how about CI + RAF/RAB combo with RAB-p + Electrostatic.  I don't know much about crossover either, so I tend to choose the easy obtion


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## dhruvmeena96

wolkegeist said:


> Hmmm how about CI + RAF/RAB combo with RAB-p + Electrostatic.  I don't know much about crossover either, so I tend to choose the easy obtion


First of all, I think of you are going dual RAF and RAB, then you dont need CI. It has good bass and CI will make it overbearing.


For RAB-p + EST(if RAB-p is properly made with proper horn dimension)
EST should be crossed over at ~9kHz to 10kHz

Then it would eat some of the top playing IEM for lunch.

And I am serious here. It scales the air of stage to gigantic level as RAB-p has a 8.5kHz peak and after that it slowly rolls off, which shows the 1st fundamental tone of cymbal air. 
After that, the peaks are 11kHz, 13khz and 17kHz for air harmonics

EST treble quality is on godly level and lingering air presence will be expanded beyond horizon bro( over exaggeration but it will sound like life like)


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## wolkegeist

dhruvmeena96 said:


> First of all, I think of you are going dual RAF and RAB, then you dont need CI. It has good bass and CI will make it overbearing.
> 
> 
> For RAB-p + EST(if RAB-p is properly made with proper horn dimension)
> ...



Woah that sound  amazing!

By RAB-p you mean RAB 32257 or 32063, and do i even need a RAF for it.

I'm already on the way of making Rab-p with 32257 + E25ST, can't wait to get the electrostatic tho!

I fixed my old 32257 build with proper RAB-p horn and lord, it sounds much better, but still lacking treble for my preferance.


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## dhruvmeena96

wolkegeist said:


> Woah that sound  amazing!
> 
> By RAB-p you mean RAB 32257 or 32063, and do i even need a RAF for it.
> 
> ...


I mean 32257 or 32033


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## dhruvmeena96 (Jun 27, 2019)

On misha paper of self head treatment pg21

"Some of the drivers I had to use, as far as I know, are avoided by the earphone manufacturers at any cost because of their “capricious” and unpredictable behavior. For instance, in my design I am using some FED-series Knowles’ BAdrivers. They employ ferromagnetic fluid for its armature’s mechanical damping. This driver is a real “icing on a cake” in the Knowles family of BA drivers suitable for good audio. It’s, at once, both technical, and artistic “tour de force”, a product of peaking performance showing an incredible audio resolution. But its diaphragm’s ferro-fluid mechanical damping is temperature dependent, while its’ level of distortion, sometimes noticeable on a music signal, can be a magnitude bigger compared to some “orthodox” solutions. Nevertheless, what it gives –electrostatic resolution and seducing sweetness –could be compared only to the same sonic qualities of single ended amplifier built on direct heated triodes. To continue this analogy, I would compare the sonics of best “orthodox” drivers, prone to some sharp resonance peaks, to a sound of a typical pentode tube amplifier."

Get a temperature isolating coating on BA(lol)


He uses two parallel FED30048 in SB7


Well, I agree on FED sound though......but what will happen if I pair it with EST.....heeehahahaha


@Xymordos planar shell design will be completed

I will pm you, if others are interested, then I will post it here(I was Ill for past 2days, recovered today)


And is there anybody who is going to help me with crossover(I am weak at it, only know slapping the tweeter)

2xED 29689(10ohm series resistance damping)
2xCI 22955

I added 10 ohm to make it look like 11ohm DCR, so CI will be 11 ohm on parallel.

And when I use 2 x FED, I will just parallel it as it is and slap the crossover to it


Condition for crossover is that bass starts to rise from 90Hz.

Above 90Hz, it should behave like ER4
Bellow 90Hz, it should be CI bass




MASM series is getting a new member

Knowles HE-31751 with same tubing as GQ and actually same damper config

All kind of RAB supported, as per taste
MASM pro resonator also supported

I have tried RAB32033 with HE


Its something between MASM Renaissance/Pro4 and MASM pro/ Pro3ultimate.

Bass has a dynamic body, mids are better somewhat. It has relaxed and smooth treble which joined with velvety midrange from ED.

How does it sound to me
Sony XBA300 but with rounder route(and I mean its big)
MASM pro but with relaxed imaging
MASM pro but with relaxed smooth treble and soft midrange
Pro 4 but with I think more subbass authority and speed for some reason

Its all about big stage. The imaging is not on the face and details are not crazy. Its like expanded and darkness, and if somebody find the GQ or original MASM shouty or sharp/sibilant(which shouldn't happen) or like moar bass...they can with this route

Very least offensive and more enjoyable
Pro3T - t for tone.


This has the best timbre  on yosi horikawa


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## wolkegeist

@dhruvmeena96 what damper should I use with RAB-p tho. My current configure is 6.5mm of 1ID to 1mm of 2ID (as resonator), to 2.5mm 1ID to green filter and then 3mm ID horn, parallel with Zobel. Sounds a little bit treble lacking, but I think it should goes well with EST.


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## dhruvmeena96

wolkegeist said:


> @dhruvmeena96 what damper should I use with RAB-p tho. My current configure is 6.5mm of 1ID to 1mm of 2ID (as resonator), to 2.5mm 1ID to green filter and then 3mm ID horn, parallel with Zobel. Sounds a little bit treble lacking, but I think it should goes well with EST.


Everybody uses brown and white (on taste). Green is overkill

Is it accurate RAB-p horn structure

Well @Choy Wei De has documented it properly and I forgot my copy, so accurate RAB-p is either on group(lol), or I have to measure again(i am in office) or ask him.

But use brown damper, as green is kinda overkill and horn effect gets pretty leveled out.

Since there is a resonator in between, it kinda makes the 3kHz and the upcoming peaks slightly lower and wider, and brown damper is kinda used it to level it slightly down. 


For @Xymordos 



 
Here is the structure, if you want mathematical formulaes, you are welcome

But prerequisite are air pressure movements and how to direct and control it.

Well simply speaking, it was easy.

The exit port at back should expand to front radiating area size at back, to have equilateral pressure(and so on front)

This kinda have a balancing act.

The calculation was for 10mm length horn in front and back.

The science is Acoustic release velocity and acoustic release pressure

When we close planar or dynamic speaker, the body of shell becomes closed or infinity restrictive, which leads to high back pressure accumulation. This is bad. So that's why they have vents at back. 

But making it open back completely has also down side, we get zero restriction, but then the acoustic release velocity is also low, which means it takes time.

Complete open back are facing 1atm and complete close back also have 1atm air pressure(sealed inside).

Our speaker(especially iem speaker dont produce anywhere near 10000th of that) dont have more pressure to displace it and run out quickly, creating a thick but tight bricky pillow of air. We need to soften it out.

Having a horn at back vent of driver(planar has one at center, lovely) is very helpful. Since planar structure of driver is inherently high pressure due to tuning constraint, allowing it to shoot air from vent half the size of radiating area(double the acoustic pressure of radiating area) its good on tuning stand point, but I think the issue is that the process with sudden pressure differences(inside to outside) will lead to air stagnation or bricky pillow. To help with that, a horn will show a gradual decrease in pressure in a constrained place, which helps air to exhaust out quickly as possible to the low pressure zone of mouth. The mouth is of normal surface area as radiating surface plus 10mm makes sure that the pressure at horn's mouth is equivalent to atmosphere.


The horn in front of radiating area is for getting tuning right for iem purposes when sound is pushed toward eardrum. And when the speaker moves for back wave, the accumulated pressure suck out from ear(high pressure to low pressure zone) and help diaphragm to move back further and remove the stagnated air at back of diaphragm(due to small size vent)

This makes the back of driver bricky pillow to soft pillow and makes the speaker acoustic impedance(not electrical) flatter while making it more effortless.

Can be used with dynamic driver with center vent at back


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## Choy Wei De

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Well @Choy Wei De has documented it properly and I forgot my copy, so accurate RAB-p is either on group(lol), or I have to measure again(i am in office) or ask him.
> 
> But use brown damper, as green is kinda overkill and horn effect gets pretty leveled out.
> 
> Since there is a resonator in between, it kinda makes the 3kHz and the upcoming peaks slightly lower and wider, and brown damper is kinda used it to level it slightly down.



@wolkegeist 

According to my documentation, original is 6.5mm, 1mm, 2.5mm, 2mm and 3mm.
But in practical, it’s more like 7mm, 1mm, 2mm, 3mm and 3mm. And I use white damper, the mid and treble is nice. Both male and female vocal are very nice. Not like most of the iem focus either only on male or female vocal.

But the vocal is slightly too loud for my taste, tried brown before. But it totally killed the mids by making it muffed and sound very flat and uninteresting. So I changed back to white.


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## dhruvmeena96

Choy Wei De said:


> @wolkegeist
> 
> According to my documentation, original is 6.5mm, 1mm, 2.5mm, 2mm and 3mm.
> But in practical, it’s more like 7mm, 1mm, 2mm, 3mm and 3mm. And I use white damper, the mid and treble is nice. Both male and female vocal are very nice. Not like most of the iem focus either only on male or female vocal.
> ...


LoL, you using white like the orignal one.

If mids are loud, add series resistor step by step till it gets balanced up


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## ForceMajeure (Jun 27, 2019)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> On misha paper of self head treatment pg21
> 
> "Some of the drivers I had to use, as far as I know,* are avoided by the earphone manufacturers *at any cost because of their “capricious” and unpredictable behavior. For instance, in my design I am using some FED-series Knowles’ BAdrivers. They employ ferromagnetic fluid for its armature’s mechanical damping. This driver is a real “icing on a cake” in the Knowles family of BA drivers suitable for good audio. It’s, at once, both technical, and artistic “tour de force”, a product of peaking performance showing an incredible audio resolution. But its diaphragm’s ferro-fluid mechanical damping is temperature dependent, while its’ level of distortion, sometimes noticeable on a music signal, can be a magnitude bigger compared to some “orthodox” solutions. Nevertheless, what it gives –electrostatic resolution and seducing sweetness –could be compared only to the same sonic qualities of single ended amplifier built on direct heated triodes. To continue this analogy, I would compare the sonics of best “orthodox” drivers, prone to some sharp resonance peaks, to a sound of a typical pentode tube amplifier."
> 
> ...



not true, afaik empire ears use ferofluid drivers and yes they are temperature dependent. the response changes slightly depending on the temprature


----------



## dhruvmeena96

ForceMajeure said:


> not true, afaik empire ears use ferofluid drivers and yes they are temperature dependent. the response changes slightly depending on the temprature


He said, ferrofluid changes with temperature and so is response.

So just coat the driver with something which isolates temperature or slows the changing temperature coffecient.

So simple


What's about not true or false.


I just said that, misha said that which you repeated while adding not true
Hahahahhahahahhahahaha


----------



## ForceMajeure

dhruvmeena96 said:


> He said, ferrofluid changes with temperature and so is response.
> 
> So just coat the driver with something which isolates temperature or slows the changing temperature coffecient.
> 
> ...


True


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jun 27, 2019)

ForceMajeure said:


> True


Well today I was discussing with my friend about spiral ear SE5 ultimate and apex and adel

He is a (crazy) scientist.

Crazy part is added by me.

Well about apex and adel.

0.1mm thick and 10mm in Diameter with 14mg of weight is our eardrum.

If you can have a CNC machine to make a apex unit
A reinforced 0.1mm mylar will do the trick.

For ADEL, you need a diaphragm which can slightly expand on variable pressure level, which induces very different sound profile on each ADEL compared to APEX bass loss and isolation loss.

ADEL units are very different sounding and not that worth it compared to APEX as the latest G1 with dual diaphragm actually reduced the expansion due to dual load sharing.

Its easy peasy with required material

For SE5 ultimate, it is a crossover and tubing trickery. For bass driver, at specific length tube, the waves neither collapse and neither boost, and neither overlap, it is a distance where it just separates out and sound very different.

That is, according to him, delayed ignition driver. This tube needs hit and trail or heavy simulations.

For midrange, the trickery was out of phase crossing with specific tube arrangement where out of phase doesnt happen and it constructs itself back.

This leads to delayed time construction..

Whereas the ringing 4kHz(normal decaying 4kHz) can be bad, he did was that remove the fundamental tone itself, then this ringing 4kHz will be delayed to create any harshness.

The harshness happens when continuous 4kHz at different time hits the eardrum. That's why people love sharp non ringing 4kHz. What he did was he removed the fundamental tone. So now brain is sensitive on 4kHz delaying time, this leads our brain to construct stage around it according to instruments. (4kHz has many instrument harmonics)


This is what create the special and completely different soundstage of Spiral Ear SE5 ultimate.

It doesnt have subbass but subbass illusion happens due to decay

And it doesnt have fundamental time 4kHz but have a delaying 4kHz, which pushes instruments back from listener and also away from each other.

It have small dip on 6kHz too, to shift cymbals away, so brain thinks them as a open back headphone.






@piotrus-g 
I looked FIBAE 7 graph with bi-flange graph looked weird for a moment, but then I calculated the peaking from 1kHz. Its normal boost(I was looking from 500Hz perspective....the upper midrange was 12.5dB)

Its a deceptive graph, I must say. 

LoL.
But after closer look, it looks nice. Well how do you describe it, because my instinct are telling me they are damm intimate but extremely less offensive. Like detail throwers(like iem telling me, have some details bro)

Can you compare FIBAE 1, Black, 3 with these for closer inspection


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jun 27, 2019)

@eunice

Finale 1 is out(design for diy'ers)
And I think most of the people would be disappointed.
But I must tell you, its great.

Direct replacement for ER4 but you guys will need @DannyBouwhuis help

Its a concept, and I think he can do it

FED30048 + 75ohms + a spout

In etymotic shell with etymotic tips
No damper

Without damper, I think it will sound what etymotic should have sounded(still a great pair, but without damper, its a different story)

MASM 7 / Pro 7 Series coming soon

MASM 7 pro would be Pro 7 Rebirth


----------



## Xymordos

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Everybody uses brown and white (on taste). Green is overkill
> 
> Is it accurate RAB-p horn structure
> 
> ...



Let me see if I can 3D print this shell. I probably won't understand the maths of this thing  Are we trying to increase air pressure in the front of the driver slightly for the tuning? I am on vacation right now in Japan so I won't be able to work on any IEMs for a week.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Xymordos said:


> Let me see if I can 3D print this shell. I probably won't understand the maths of this thing  Are we trying to increase air pressure in the front of the driver slightly for the tuning? I am on vacation right now in Japan so I won't be able to work on any IEMs for a week.


Japan....(anime triggered)

At the back of driver
We are making the driver acoustic pressure have direction and continuous yet gradual movement low pressure zone due to horn. This is more effective compared to 

Closed set
1. High air pressure
2. Zero air velocity

Semi open
1. Medium air pressure
2. High air velocity

Open set
1. Zero air pressure
2. Low ejection velocity(its fully open)

This setup gives 
1. Medium acoustic air pressure
2. Medium acoustic air velocity 


This control abrupt diaphragm movement, helps the air suspension at back movement to soften up




In front.

The reverse horn, concentrates and accurately traps the whole surface area gradually to smaller bore, increasing pressure

This increase imaging and bass presence(with some upper mids boost)

But the same reverse horn helps in reverting back the air pressure as the air pressure buildup inside the ear will escape faster at reverse signal or back movement of diaphragm.

This slightly helps to soften the back cushion again due to some air pushing diaphragm little back.

This controls overall excursion, softens and speedens the planar to dual planar, helps with ear pressure buildup without the small pinsize vent in front


----------



## DannyBouwhuis

dhruvmeena96 said:


> @eunice
> 
> Finale 1 is out(design for diy'ers)
> And I think most of the people would be disappointed.
> ...



I could give that a shot, I'll try to add some ci spouts to the fed.. I'll try and measure it this weekend as I'm not home at the moment

Still working on fed-ed-est but it's still a bit off.. Lacks bass, and the there's something odd with the highs, the detail is there but it's almost like the output is too low, there's a 1uf cap on the est atm, I've ordered the caps you recommended, haven't tried it yet.. I'm afraid there's something wrong with my est, don't know for sure, should measure them first


----------



## dhruvmeena96

DannyBouwhuis said:


> I could give that a shot, I'll try to add some ci spouts to the fed.. I'll try and measure it this weekend as I'm not home at the moment
> 
> Still working on fed-ed-est but it's still a bit off.. Lacks bass, and the there's something odd with the highs, the detail is there but it's almost like the output is too low, there's a 1uf cap on the est atm, I've ordered the caps you recommended, haven't tried it yet.. I'm afraid there's something wrong with my est, don't know for sure, should measure them first


Can you tell the build

FED30048
ED30761

I will tell you how to connect EST.

Lack of bass might be issue with ED30761 not sealed properly

Do seal you drivers with glue at end.


----------



## DannyBouwhuis (Jun 27, 2019)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Can you tell the build
> 
> FED30048
> ED30761
> ...



It probably is the seal, I still haven't received my shells so I uv glued a tip on the tubing just so I could listen

On the fed 7.5mm 2id

Ed 12mm 1.2 id 1500ohm at 1/4 and 1000ohm at 3/4 

Fed 6mm  1.2 id


----------



## dhruvmeena96

DannyBouwhuis said:


> It probably is the seal, I still haven't received my shells so I uv glued a tip on the tubing just so I could listen
> 
> On the fed 7.5mm 2id
> 
> ...


EST at 6mm

Or you repeated FED again


I think its the seal issue of tube and BA. Check for tube leaks

Since there is some rumble with ED30761

EST is fine, just make it 7.5mm
470nF to 1uF capacitor according to taste

Well, to notify, you should actually not add EST, as this setup can do more than enough treble

And if there is some treble cancellation going on, reverse phase EST to rescue


----------



## DannyBouwhuis

dhruvmeena96 said:


> EST at 6mm
> 
> Or you repeated FED again
> 
> ...



I'll try to setup the Dayton mic this weekend for some measuring, so I know for sure what's happening.. I used the audiotool app on my one plus but the app doesn't work, so I hope that arta accepts the calibration file

Thanks !


----------



## Slater

DannyBouwhuis said:


> I'll try to setup the Dayton mic this weekend for some measuring, so I know for sure what's happening.. I used the audiotool app on my one plus but the app doesn't work, so I hope that arta accepts the calibration file
> 
> Thanks !



Be aware that the calibration file included with the imm6 is for open field measurements. It is not calibrated correctly for closed measuring (such as IEMs). You pretty much have to build your own calibration file.

Luckily, it’s a text file and can be built using any text editor.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Well

Can anybody help me BS6+zobel

I want to make it single tube and the tube should be 2mm ID / 3mm OD when exiting toward the ear.


----------



## Ivan TT

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Well
> 
> Can anybody help me BS6+zobel
> 
> I want to make it single tube and the tube should be 2mm ID / 3mm OD when exiting toward the ear.


That's my set up.
The trick is to use short length of 3mm ID tubing stretched over 3 nozzles and glue 2mm ID into it (ideally 2mm ID 3.2mm OD, but also depends on the shell.
Zobel as posted here many times (or refer to Soundlink's photos on AE).


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Ivan TT said:


> That's my set up.
> The trick is to use short length of 3mm ID tubing stretched over 3 nozzles and glue 2mm ID into it (ideally 2mm ID 3.2mm OD, but also depends on the shell.
> Zobel as posted here many times (or refer to Soundlink's photos on AE).


Well this is the driver for MASM 7 edition

I finalised out

With RAB

And has more powerful zobel circuitry


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jun 29, 2019)

If we go with lower inductance woofers, you'll probably sacrifice low-end response; but with higher-inductance woofers, you lose higher-end response because of the high inductance. Splitting the system is, of course, the only way to get things right.


A coil is an inductor; that is to say, that as frequency rises, impedance increases.

Yes, then, higher inductance means that higher-frequency harmonics will get cut off.

As always, we go to the square wave as our first example--woofers restrict the upper frequencies, rounding off the edges and creating troughs in the tops and bottoms of the square wave.

When fed a sine wave, the woofer will move slowly and not adjust quickly--like a sumo wrestler trying to do ballet--consequently, there's phasing problem (group delay, except now in context of a driver instead of a crossover) as the woofer can't keep up with the sine wave; in an extreme case, it would actually look like the integral of the sine wave, because it is shifted so much. If the sine wave ends abruptly at 0, the woofer continues moving for a short time afterwards while the suspension pulls the poor thing back into normal position.

So introducing.

RAB 32037
A full range with highest inductance I have seen till date

37.3 mH


What I was thinking, as Final 3 is my top of line DIY.
Removing CI and ED30761 and adding two of these RAB 32037 in parallel. Using 3mm ID/4mm OD tube stretched over the parallel driver and then a 2mm ID tube / 3mm OD tube inserted inside the previous stretched tube on driver.

While keeping the 2mm ID tube length exactly to specification

No dampers on FED and RAB32037
Zobel introduced(since you guys love zobel circuit so much).

Much more smoother 1kHz to 4kHz transition .

Better bass in my regards
And better matching of drivers too.



(I will check them first without dampers, if dampers are needed, I will add them)


I will also be trying CI 30120 + 10ohm resistance to sorta match with FED30048 ... Both drivers damperless fullrange


----------



## ForceMajeure

dhruvmeena96 said:


> If we go with lower inductance woofers, you'll probably sacrifice low-end response; but with higher-inductance woofers, you lose higher-end response because of the high inductance. Splitting the system is, of course, the only way to get things right.
> 
> 
> A coil is an inductor; that is to say, that as frequency rises, impedance increases.
> ...



how do you know the inductance of the 32037? is that from the datasheet?


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jun 29, 2019)

@Xymordos
@Ivan TT
@IvanNOON
@ForceMajeure



ForceMajeure said:


> how do you know the inductance of the 32037? is that from the datasheet?



yes it is

Comsol multiphysics crack is available though

you would be needing Acoustics, Fluid Flow , AC/DC and some other plugins too
it may make your work easier in predicting tube and change of ID(Resonator) effect on acoustic pressure

for those who needs a reference plan and understand how RAB-p actually works

increasing the size of resonator increase the width of peak while very little damping it(Lowering the kurtosis), and shifting the energy(which we see as damped) to higher frequency and lower frequency registors(point of interaction)

Campfire Andromeda used that on its high frequency driver and that too a big one, to damp all the upper mid-range peak and shifting it to High frequency(as it was crossed, lower frequency was clean of unwanted energy)
i used 1mm on RAB/RAF-pro, because 2mm(whilst being ideal value) was shifting some late pressure to bass making it rumble a lot. so we(@Choy Wei De was involved directly with this project) used 1mm to give RAB the changing air pressure change feel(Dynamic driver, or you can say, slight decay) while having the 3kHz and 5kHz wider and slightly lower, covering the upper mid-range more smoothly. This setup also helped us to reduce the damper strength which lead to more acoustic energy transfer from the driver toward the eardrum. This helped us getting the sound-stage(artificially created, natural sounding) from single BA while having good treble response

Well, @eunice , zobel effects the Distortion chart more directly and FR graph at the rising impedance

On BS6+zobel, it didnt help anything except one magical frequency which made it technically leagues ahead than other Knowles driver(i am serious), was that, it fixed the rising impedance near 1kHz, which is generally the frequency where DAC, AMP, All drivers type suffer from distortion. and BS6 had a spike which lead to even worse issues

Fixing this with a good resistor and capacitor means a very lowered distortion number due these component values just replaced the driver variable function due to inductance values. this also made the amp see a ideal resistance, making it drop from there too.

Thats why you mentioned about the vocals getting softer yet clear in your old post



back to RAB-p

the distortion of RAB drivers in 1kHz and above is generally High, due variable impedance and not a nominal peaking plus weird phase response.
@Choy Wei De , thats why you got addicted to zobel sound
it fixed the RAB power consumption(voltage issues) due to weird electrical phase, flatten the impedance for more ease of power and dampened the ringing while increasing the treble response without making it hot.


MASM science

any driver having peak at 2kHz and 4kHz or 5kHz while dipping at 3kHz  and with very high dB, can be assisted with RAB(because of 3kHz spike).
LOL

so simple yet effective


the reason behind damping the Higher dB driver with two damper has two reason
1. the green damper near spout levels up the peak, so that RAB dip filling action is apparent
2. grey damper is added so that any added treble from RAB doesnt make the set hot and sibilant


MASM pro is resonator, so it can fill more dipped area effectively and make thing sound more smoother and less peakier

old people love softer and less peakier sound as their brain is less powerful in compensation which makes them sensitive to peaks and trough

THATS WHY IT IS MASM

You guys liked it, because brain loves thing where it has to work less for same result. MASM series provides that

well anybody has a specific property they want from their IEM(not signature), i can help building that


i am working with how big i can make the soundstage for now. Everything sacrificed, just stage, so big that it goes on headphone tier


----------



## ForceMajeure (Jun 29, 2019)

.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jun 29, 2019)

ForceMajeure said:


> .


 the theory still stand hahahahhahhahahha
it works as intended


----------



## ForceMajeure (Jun 29, 2019)

.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jun 29, 2019)

........

next year april fools day beforehand
spam post please ignore

read the above one


----------



## Choy Wei De

My drivers have arrived!!!

Thank @dhruvmeena96 for all the recommendations.


----------



## wardy

Grrrr....

Just finished my first pair of shells using Dreve Fotoplast and they went perfectly...

Untill I went to drill them and they cracked instantly, what am I doing wrong?

I had no issues with the magic gloss
It's like it's as brittle as glass

I'm pretty much applying no pressure
Cheers


----------



## eunice

wardy said:


> Grrrr....
> 
> Just finished my first pair of shells using Dreve Fotoplast and they went perfectly...
> 
> ...


Then it’s the wrong drill or the shells are too thin. 
You need to use a diamond drill.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Hmmmm

A crossover question
I have a setup design which rolls off heavily to 10kHz after 8kHz peaking. I mean the roll off is very strong in dB loss

If I have WBFK and I want it to cross it, so I can get all my HF back, how should I do it..

SWFK means double capacitance of WBFK.


----------



## ForceMajeure

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Hmmmm
> 
> A crossover question
> I have a setup design which rolls off heavily to 10kHz after 8kHz peaking. I mean the roll off is very strong in dB loss
> ...


are you sure it's not due to the driver rolling off itself. if not then you probably have some phase conflicts. you could try messing with tubing or/and you could try using a high pass filter that crosses lower on the frequency response (f.e instead of using 0.68uf try 1.5uf, 2uf etc..)


----------



## ForceMajeure

wardy said:


> Grrrr....
> 
> Just finished my first pair of shells using Dreve Fotoplast and they went perfectly...
> 
> ...


Like eunice said. use diamond drill bits. start with one of the smallest pointy tips slowly, drill until you pass through. then rotate it around slightly to enlarge the hole. change tips to a larger diameter one and enlarge that hole by rotating it again. no need to use more than 2000rpm. 
if it still cracks then your shells are probably too thin to begin with.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jun 30, 2019)

ForceMajeure said:


> are you sure it's not due to the driver rolling off itself. if not then you probably have some phase conflicts. you could try messing with tubing or/and you could try using a high pass filter that crosses lower on the frequency response (f.e instead of using 0.68uf try 1.5uf, 2uf etc..)


the setup is a single driver, so phase conflict is not a chance
sorry i am mentioning right now

i am learning crossover, and its too hard for my brain to comprehend for now
i was bad at electrics, good at computer and electronics
and comsol plugin for AC signal phase is expensive AF


----------



## Xymordos

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Hmmmm
> 
> A crossover question
> I have a setup design which rolls off heavily to 10kHz after 8kHz peaking. I mean the roll off is very strong in dB loss
> ...




Usually a simple first order crossover with 0.2uf or ~0.15uf works well though.


----------



## ForceMajeure

dhruvmeena96 said:


> the setup is a single driver, so phase conflict is not a chance
> sorry i am mentioning right now
> 
> i am learning crossover, and its too hard for my brain to comprehend for now
> ...


my bad I misunderstand the situation. if you just want to add some HF adding a wbfk/swfk then like xymordos said just use a simple cap in series to the driver first and see how it affects it. you could start by 1.5uf and use lower values to cut it higher on the freq range.


----------



## vladstef

ForceMajeure said:


> my bad I misunderstand the situation. if you just want to add some HF adding a wbfk/swfk then like xymordos said just use a simple cap in series to the driver first and see how it affects it. you could start by 1.5uf and use lower values to cut it higher on the freq range.



Start at 0.5uf and go lower, I am not even kidding. I am using swfk with 0.11uf, it reduces even high frequencies by a bit but it stops messing with upper mid range - and I'd argue that swfk is aboslute trash when it tries to do mid range in any way.
As always, go by your own hearing, this is just one opinion and probably a very unpopular one.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

vladstef said:


> Start at 0.5uf and go lower, I am not even kidding. I am using swfk with 0.11uf, it reduces even high frequencies by a bit but it stops messing with upper mid range - and I'd argue that swfk is aboslute trash when it tries to do mid range in any way.
> As always, go by your own hearing, this is just one opinion and probably a very unpopular one.


Never agreed more than this....true

SWFK mids are crap
And I mean some serious crap.
1uF and bellow is okay though
Not 1.5uF.

Well, here I was asking very exact sort of cap

I guess 220nF for WBFK does the job for me


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Well @ForceMajeure 
@IvanNOON was building a ED29689 damperless. The first resonator did it's work, the second resonator after 2mm shifted the 2kHz peaking by +300Hz(making it 2.3kHz)

He did use damper with 1 resonator and his upper midrange 2kHz matched the ER4S 10dB 2kHz and after that all treble was preserved.

I know preserving this much treble can make things harsh and sibilant.

But without damper and some Eq, as per his and my experience, things sounded pin point accurate and holographic. 

I know I have FED in my hands, but most of people won't be spending money on expensive single driver.

So finding a way to make a damperless, electric trickery less single driver just by tubing

Anybody up with this project

Trying to kill 6dB of 2kHz with tubing only


----------



## IvanNOON

vladstef said:


> Start at 0.5uf and go lower, I am not even kidding. I am using swfk with 0.11uf, it reduces even high frequencies by a bit but it stops messing with upper mid range - and I'd argue that swfk is aboslute trash when it tries to do mid range in any way.
> As always, go by your own hearing, this is just one opinion and probably a very unpopular one.





dhruvmeena96 said:


> Never agreed more than this....true
> SWFK mids are crap
> And I mean some serious crap.
> 1uF and bellow is okay though



That's because SWFK doesn't have any mids. It peaks at around 4.5kHz

 



dhruvmeena96 said:


> Well @ForceMajeure
> @IvanNOON was building a ED29689 damperless. The first resonator did it's work, the second resonator after 2mm shifted the 2kHz peaking by +300Hz(making it 2.3kHz)
> 
> He did use damper with 1 resonator and his upper midrange 2kHz matched the ER4S 10dB 2kHz and after that all treble was preserved.
> ...



Correction - Second resonator shifted peaks DOWN around -300Hz

But yeah, damperless is very hard to tune...


----------



## Choy Wei De (Jul 1, 2019)

Update of my current collection!



Full Red: RAB-p 32257 with horn, resonator and white
Grey scratch: Pro 2/Savant with 2354 22ohm
Blueish grey: GQ30710 with RAB-p resonator, horn and brown
Full black: MASM pro/32033 with resonator
Full blue: RAB-p 32033 with resonator, horn and white

Thanks to everyone in the thread and specially @dhruvmeena96 for bringing me through the process.


----------



## wardy

ForceMajeure said:


> Like eunice said. use diamond drill bits. start with one of the smallest pointy tips slowly, drill until you pass through. then rotate it around slightly to enlarge the hole. change tips to a larger diameter one and enlarge that hole by rotating it again. no need to use more than 2000rpm.
> if it still cracks then your shells are probably too thin to begin with.



Of course! Haha thanks so much guys, works perfectly, gutted I wasted a perfect pair of shells tho


----------



## Slater (Jul 1, 2019)

Has anyone tried the
Sonion 33AJ007i/9 bass drivers? They are supposed to have the deepest BA sub bass extension, hands down. I’m lookin for something with the legit sub bass punch of a dynamic. The Sonion is supposed to be it.


----------



## eunice

Slater said:


> Has anyone tried the
> Sonion 33AJ007i/9 bass drivers? They are supposed to have the deepest BA sub bass extension, hands down. I’m lookin for something with the legit sub bass punch of a dynamic. The Sonion is supposed to be it.


Although I have the Sonion I didn’t try them yet. 

But BS6 + Zobel has legit sub bass punch. The most sub bass of all the recipes on this thread. Did you try it?


----------



## Slater

eunice said:


> But BS6 + Zobel has legit sub bass punch. The most sub bass of all the recipes on this thread. Did you try it?



No, I haven’t tried that combination.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jul 2, 2019)

Slater said:


> Has anyone tried the
> Sonion 33AJ007i/9 bass drivers? They are supposed to have the deepest BA sub bass extension, hands down. I’m lookin for something with the legit sub bass punch of a dynamic. The Sonion is supposed to be it.


I have tried it

Yes it has bass up to 10Hz without BA knock sound.
It goes deeper than dynamic drivers
It has same amount of bass as HODVTEC but faster in speed.

HODVTEC (vents open)+ zobel + L-pad(10dB off) is very near the sonion speed but less bass and less tu Ming flexibility


I can help with the build too


----------



## Lucas Taboada

Where are you guys buying 3mm ID sound tubes? I'm searching taobao and can't find it.

Already asked here but, anyone knows a good and precise way to cut the shell to fit a 2pin connector?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Lucas Taboada said:


> Where are you guys buying 3mm ID sound tubes? I'm searching taobao and can't find it.
> 
> Already asked here but, anyone knows a good and precise way to cut the shell to fit a 2pin connector?



https://www.amazon.com/Fluorostore-F018132-Metric-Tubing-Transparent/dp/B00ID7EAI0

Mann google it

LOL


----------



## HAMS

I'm new on this DIY-ing, I want to try simple DIY etymotic clone. My question is are ED29689 on AliExpress genuine/any good?


----------



## Choy Wei De

HAMS said:


> I'm new on this DIY-ing, I want to try simple DIY etymotic clone. My question is are ED29689 on AliExpress genuine/any good?



Get it from SoundLink store. They are very good.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

HAMS said:


> I'm new on this DIY-ing, I want to try simple DIY etymotic clone. My question is are ED29689 on AliExpress genuine/any good?


yup
from soundlink


----------



## SupremusDoofus

What are some good diy configs for under $100? I have a real hard time of rounding up all the builds you guys have come up with lol.


----------



## eunice

SupremusDoofus said:


> What are some good diy configs for under $100? I have a real hard time of rounding up all the builds you guys have come up with lol.



A cheap and awesome sounding set that’s easy to build is BS6 + Zobel (best bass) or MASM pro (best highs)

You will end up above $100 because you will buy more material than you need for one build, but you will only use ~$100 in material. If you start to buy tools, you will end up way above your budget. 

Driver: https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/bXJr2c3A

You will find the schematics in the product description of the driver. 


Damper (orange + white):
https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/cPznkUdS

Tubing (2mm ID, 3mm OD)
https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/NRUAXCM

For MASM pro you will also need 1mmID and 2mmOD tubing. 

Mmcx :
https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/bRuys3Vq
https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/PzGLlNq

Litz wire
https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/bCU7EwBO

Capacitors: 
https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/bO3BvFiC

Resistors:
https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/bTX5oN1I

Cable: 
https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/c6t3i7Sg


Shells:

I cannot recommend any universal shells since I build Custom IEMs. I think they are approx $30 

If you never have build custom shells before and you want to start building custom shells, you will buy tooling and materials for ~$400 alone. (UV lamp, dremel + bits, wax melter, Agar, Resin, Lacquer, Glycerin, Alcohol, you need to get impressions done). 
If you have everything you can make custom shells for ~$5 - $10 in material, but the initial cost is high.


----------



## HAMS

Anyone soldered smd resistor directly on mmcx connector? I thought that it's doable and maybe someone here already did that?


----------



## eunice

It may be possible to solder it on the negative, but on the positive it would be very hard to solder, especially if you want to connect more than just the resistor. 

Also depending on the package size of the resistor it might easily break off during assembly. 

I use a few mm of Litz wire, it’s an additional step but it works for sure.


----------



## Slater

eunice said:


> A cheap and awesome sounding set that’s easy to build is BS6 + Zobel (best bass) or MASM pro (best highs)
> 
> You will end up above $100 because you will buy more material than you need for one build, but you will only use ~$100 in material. If you start to buy tools, you will end up way above your budget.
> 
> ...



Do you have a link to the zobel driver? Or is the zobel included in that Bellsing 10013 driver assembly?

Besides tubes and dampers, are additional crossover components required? It looks like everything is already ready-to-go with the 10013.


----------



## eunice

The driver is the Bellsing 10013, which we call BS6 here (it is 6 drivers in one piece including crossover)

The zobel is a resistor and capacitor in series connected to + and - of the source (ie in parallel to the driver). Schematics are in the product description of the driver on Ali express. 

The setup is called BS6 + Zobel because it is the Bellsing 10013 (which includes the crossover) with an additional Zobel network in parallel to the driver. That improves sound even more and makes it much easier to drive. 

You can use a BS6 without the Zobel, but then I would rather recommend to buy a Knowles GV (yellow damper on bass, orange or red damper on highs). Without the Zobel, BS6 does not sound as good as the Knowles GV. 

But go for the BS6 + Zobel, it is ridiculously good and easy to build.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jul 6, 2019)

SupremusDoofus said:


> What are some good diy configs for under $100? I have a real hard time of rounding up all the builds you guys have come up with lol.


What sort of signature you want to go with

And what sort of soundstage and image.


Well for single driver balanced signature

For for RAB-p(RAB pro)

For neutral signature
Add 20ohms series resistor to it.

The overall tonality of balanced sounding RAB-p is somewhat Tinaudio like upper mids but BA like speed(@Slater might explain tinaudio better) and more conventional bass rise, which adds the warmth while remaining clean.

That's for single driver sound
It creates good enough soundstage from midrange and upper midrange. Treble is rolled off after 9kHz(peak point) to 10kHz in sudden slope and then gradually goes up to 16kHz smoothly in flat manner.

More diffused sound with proper instrument placement, good for classical


The neutral approach RAB-p
Etymotic like bass but doesnt roll off.
Flat from 20Hz to 1kHz on measurement(ruler flat), upper mids are like mentioned above but gains the roll off by some amount to add flair and air.

Harder to driver, but added benefit of being quite with noise floor, THD, DPD and IMD while having even flatter phase.

Sounds more effortless


MASM 3 pro




This is MASM pro(32257) lol(@Choy Wei De measurement, he may add comparisons). The orignal MASM pro doesnt have roll off any kind in bass.

But overall explaining, the treble is detailed, airy but at same time tuned so that it never gets offensive to any ear.

Some says, it has better highs than Andromeda(lol)

Stage is perfect round and 4x bigger than RAB-p. The sense of space may reach bigger than HD800 if a binaural track from Yosi Horikawa is played.

Perfect for Mastering(Mixing or hearing utter details)

Midrange is tuned so that the depth can be produced, but let not the FR fool you with tame upper mids, it is due to GQ taming this happened. The fundamental tone from RAB always keep the balanced tuning of conventional IEM intact.

Bass is something which may be weird for some people and needs to get used to. It feels like moving air, then brake, then air. Its very fast and revealing and may not sound like bass in some track. Makes me remember HD820.

Well its like mini HD800 series but very smooth treble, uplifted mids and better bass. The soundstage doesnt reach to headphone level due to IEM.

Custom design may takes thing on different level though.


BS6 + zobel might not be a thing anymore as I did MASM 7 recently.
Sorry @Ivan TT @eunice for killing BS6+ zobel so soon.

BS6 + zobel is the fastest and clearest bass so far. It has heft to it but feels airy. I think it produces the airyness from bass rather than treble, which makes it a different listen.

1kHz distortion is damped by zobel which clears most of fundamental tone and vocals.

MASM7 is so perfect that impedance becomes super flat. Easier to drive and has the crazy level detailing that might make some people dislike their music. Its reveals not the file but the recording artifacts.


MASM 6(BS5 + RAB32063) is bassy and audiophiliac sound. This has more relaxed tuning compared to whole MASM series I have done. It has bass derived depth stage while maintaining the MASM style treble.

MASM 4(GK + RAB32063) is more tamed bass compared to above and has slightly more highs for some reason


MASM 3EN series(not open for DIY for now!!!!sorry) is my balance between tuning and tech. It is MASM 3 with more dynamic bass reach and more smoother and velvety treble.


----------



## eunice (Jul 6, 2019)

@dhruvmeena96 sorry for the confusion, what is MASM 7 again?
I really tried to find the design in this thread, but your recipes end at MASM 6.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

eunice said:


> @dhruvmeena96 sorry for the confusion, what is MASM 7 again?
> I really tried to find the design in this thread, but your recipes end at MASM 6.


MASM 3(GQ + RAB)
MASM 4(GK + RAB32063)
MASM 6(BS5 + RAB32063)
MASM 7(BS6 + RAB)


----------



## eunice

dhruvmeena96 said:


> MASM 3(GQ + RAB)
> MASM 4(GK + RAB32063)
> MASM 6(BS5 + RAB32063)
> MASM 7(BS6 + RAB)


All with the same Zobel, tubes, dampers?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

eunice said:


> All with the same Zobel, tubes, dampers?


Yup

Same tube and same damper config

MASM4 and MASM 6 will only go with invented RAB32063 as the bass was unbearable with vented RAB

For MASM 7
The BS6 and RAB will have their own zobel
Same tube and everything


----------



## SupremusDoofus

dhruvmeena96 said:


> What sort of signature you want to go with
> 
> And what sort of soundstage and image.
> 
> ...



Wow the MASM 3 Pro graph looks good! I think its a GQ 30783 + RAB 32257 config right? Also MASM 6 sounds exactly what I am looking for but how does the stage compare to MASM 3 Pro?


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jul 7, 2019)

SupremusDoofus said:


> Wow the MASM 3 Pro graph looks good! I think its a GQ 30783 + RAB 32257 config right? Also MASM 6 sounds exactly what I am looking for but how does the stage compare to MASM 3 Pro?


I will recommend 32033 with MASM 3 pro.

MASM 6 is more extended on both side of spectrum, having 10kHz shimmer and 13kHz flare.
According to this graph
The bass is elevated by 7dB at 125Hz and bass rise starts from 250Hz

The peak after 4kHz is less peaky(and a small dip between the two upper mids peak) but also the elevation of whole treble response after 8kHz is there by 3dB.

More airy and bassy

More ovalish soundstage (still near round) going more in depth and width

Its more of an enjoying IEM also.
MASM 3 pro is brutal mastering IEM for some reason whereas MASM 3 normal is less brutal mastering iem.

MASM 6 is audiophiliac relaxing sound. It is smooth all over treble


But lemme make it clear, they share the same type of fundamental tone from RAB(damperless). All have the same type of starting tone

What is getting changed is the signature and the way if presentation after fundamental tone end



And best part is that whole MASM series have the smooth treble response and the same type of upper mids and bass structure

Just boost here and there and you get different sound signature.

Plus more driver and lesser distortion


----------



## dhruvmeena96

eunice said:


> A cheap and awesome sounding set that’s easy to build is BS6 + Zobel (best bass) or MASM pro (best highs)
> 
> You will end up above $100 because you will buy more material than you need for one build, but you will only use ~$100 in material. If you start to buy tools, you will end up way above your budget.
> 
> ...


Damper is green and grey not orange and white


That is very strong damping

Green near spout and grey in between tube


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jul 7, 2019)

MASM 2 or MASM mini
ED29689 (same tube as MASM 3 GQ tube, different damping scheme) + 20ohms
Damping scheme
Yellow damper near spout
Grey damper in center

RAB32066 (same as MASM 3 RAB series(this RAB is different) tube, no damper) + zobel


DCR = 17.39 ohms


Sound profile is Bassier , ED29689 mids range and treble but more smoothened out

Yellow damper is update, upper midrange was getting glaring and hot with red also

Yellow on ED29689 fixes the issue

Here ED29689 work is needed from 20Hz to 2kHz only. Other and main work is done by RAB32066.


----------



## eunice

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Damper is green and grey not orange and white
> 
> 
> That is very strong damping
> ...


I use the dampers at the end of the tube, there orange and white is perfect for my taste. With dampers closer to the driver your dampers are probably better. 




dhruvmeena96 said:


> For MASM 7
> The BS6 and RAB will have their own zobel
> Same tube and everything



So you have not released the zobel yet? I guess it will need to be the unvented RAB too?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

eunice said:


> I use the dampers at the end of the tube, there orange and white is perfect for my taste. With dampers closer to the driver your dampers are probably better.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just add BS6 zobel circuit and RAB zobel circuit in parallel to each other and the drivers

Or calculate the summative zobel of those two zobel

Zobel calculator is available online also


----------



## eunice (Jul 7, 2019)

Oh @dhruvmeena96 you always want to teach us to think for ourselves and I want specific recipes 

So RAB Zobel is 41Ohm + 4.6 uF and BS6 Zobel is 25 Ohm + 22 uF. Summative Zobel should be 15.5 Ohms and 26.6 uF, right?

Should I go with unvented RAB? With resonator?
BS6 has 3 spouts, how to do tubing? Merge DTEC + the two TWFK into one tube?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

eunice said:


> Oh @dhruvmeena96 you always want to teach us to think for ourselves and I want specific recipes
> 
> So RAB Zobel is 41Ohm + 4.6 uF and BS6 Zobel is 25 Ohm + 22 uF. Summative Zobel should be 15.5 Ohms and 26.6 uF, right?
> 
> ...


Merge two TWFK and DTEC with one tube ;use 3mm ID / 6mm OD to stretch around driver spout.

Then insert a 2mm tube inside it.

Actually dont combine the Zobel so that you can lower the % error rate. But that's a choice.

You can use all sorts of RAB according to taste as I find BS6 to be balanced and not bassy at all(it has a finnese bass but not overwhelming). Which makes it perfect for all kinds of RAB.


Two resonator/mouth/spacing with 2mm separation leads to MASM 7 rebirth edition as it fills the dips perfectly. Without resonator is fine, the upper mids will be slightly rougher (its still way to smoother compared to normal BS6 though).

Moi too busy with office and family work. The only free time I get is 4hrs

Which I have divided into 4parts

1. Playing Half life series for now
2. Making IEM
3. Simulating my work stuff
4. For family

I said I will make a PDF for all my design. So worry not

I am still learning myself


----------



## dhruvmeena96

I have a CI22955, ED29689 and a SWFK31736 lying down.
I have a FED30048 also lying around.

So anybody can please tell me a crossover (pinpoint cross)

So that I can maintain the impedance

Plus I really want the bass boost of CI to begin at 100Hz. And SWFK to cross after 9kHz.

Can anybody help me with that

A build

Pls


----------



## kmmm

I was just about going to build the BS6 with Zobel, but now I see that I have to change the build to MASM7...  as I’m a newbee, could someone please tell me the difference of the RAB armatures (soundwise)?
And if someone would draw a sketch of the zobel and tubing I would be very happy!


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jul 8, 2019)

kmmm said:


> I was just about going to build the BS6 with Zobel, but now I see that I have to change the build to MASM7...  as I’m a newbee, could someone please tell me the difference of the RAB armatures (soundwise)?
> And if someone would draw a sketch of the zobel and tubing I would be very happy!



The one used in MASM series

RAB32063- flatter
RAB32033- bassy
RAB32257- bassy but less than above
RAF vented- cheaper RAB, slower speed, I am no genius ear trained but FR is same as RAB32257 but seems slightly slow and enjoyable.
RAF closed (rare driver)- same as RAB32063 but 1/2price and easy to solder. And I mean they are same


These are driver under experiments(not for MASM)

RAB32066 - high impedance, internal pre damped driver
RAB woofer(highest inductance, may be better bass driver than CI)


You can try BS6 and then should mod it again for MASM. Use bluetac to stick the tube to driver

Ask for BS6 recipient and BS6 is more flexible to signature. As you can use different tube per driver .

MASM 7 is on my tuning and is only flexible at single point BS6 driver



@eunice
MASM legend (Andromeda slayer soundstage, or I will say this is the craziest soundstage level I can reach without sacrificing imaging.

This is a mod to normal orignal MASM 3( 32257, no resonator) and is easier than fitting 2mm tube to only RAB.

Add SWFK32255 at 1uF(and this is only recommended driver, not the other SWFK, because the motto is raise the response of treble, to not roll off and without peaks, because MASM was made to not have any big peaks on HF.)

And make it share the RAB tube

5 driver MASM vs 5 driver Andromeda
I really wanted to make Andromeda killer and I think I succeeded


On trip, inside train, as I come back to my place, I think I will compile everything this time

Too many designs soonly


Just waiting for someone to help me with CI, ED, and a SWFK only

The conventional way of tuning and tri bore is okay


----------



## wolkegeist

@dhruvmeena96 I like the idea of MASM 3 with a treble driver, is any driver’s gonna fit or it necessarily needs to be SWFK? And can I fit GQ and RAB into 1 tube? Because my nozzle is only 2.7-3mm ID, it can’t fit even a 3OD 2ID and a 2OD 1ID tube. I’m so frustrated on the tubing.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

wolkegeist said:


> @dhruvmeena96 I like the idea of MASM 3 with a treble driver, is any driver’s gonna fit or it necessarily needs to be SWFK? And can I fit GW and RAB into 1 tube? Because my nozzle is only 2.7-3mm ID, it can’t fit even a 3OD 2ID and a 2OD 1ID tube. I’m so frustrated on the tubing.


The treble driver has to be straight line like the pre damped SWFK 32255, plus should not add impedance in treble as that can lead to phase shift in last octave.

You can try any driver for taste, I added SWFK32255 and it just sound amazing. Better than EST in every way.

Plus , the treble is so smooth and extended that it feels weird in stage. Every note(even bass guitar and drums) is followed by this weird air and black stage. 

Add a soneeter bard's headspace on source with this and you get a loudspeaker slayer. I mean I have magnepan and wisdom big planar and this sound bigger than this.


----------



## wolkegeist

wolkegeist said:


> @dhruvmeena96 I like the idea of MASM 3 with a treble driver, is any driver’s gonna fit or it necessarily needs to be SWFK? And can I fit GW and RAB into 1 tube? Because my nozzle is only 2.7-3mm ID, it can’t fit even a 3OD 2ID and a 2OD 1ID tube. I’m so frustrated on the tubing.





dhruvmeena96 said:


> The treble driver has to be straight line like the pre damped SWFK 32255, plus should not add impedance in treble as that can lead to phase shift in last octave.
> 
> You can try any driver for taste, I added SWFK32255 and it just sound amazing. Better than EST in every way.
> 
> ...


Oh nice, SWFK it is. How about MASM tubing tho. TBH it’s the most frustrating part of making IEM. The nozzle is so small.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

wolkegeist said:


> Oh nice, SWFK it is. How about MASM tubing tho. TBH it’s the most frustrating part of making IEM. The nozzle is so small.


It still remains same
SWFK32255 + RAB32033 in same tube(16mm tube/2mm ID)
GQ30783 with green damper in spout, grey damper in center(20mm tube/2mm ID)

RAB32033 + zobel
Rz= 41ohms
Cz= 4.6uF




SWFK32255 (1uF)


----------



## eunice

kmmm said:


> I was just about going to build the BS6 with Zobel, but now I see that I have to change the build to MASM7...  as I’m a newbee, could someone please tell me the difference of the RAB armatures (soundwise)?
> And if someone would draw a sketch of the zobel and tubing I would be very happy!


My two cents: Start with BS6 + Zobel. 
It’s easier to build and it has been verified by many in this thread. I will build MASM 7 soon and I will report if it’s worth building. 

Usually @dhruvmeena96 is spot on in his descriptions, but it’s not always easy to replicate his results.

So as a newbie, definitively go for a simple and proven build that is well described. Either MASM 3 pro if you like a treble-y signature or BS6 + Zobel if you want a nice bass (it has nice treble too). 

If money is not an issue you can also build Finale 2, (ED+FED) it’s just a little lacking in bass but has the best resolution of all the recipes I have built so far. Drivers are expensive though and tubing is not easy.


----------



## SupremusDoofus

eunice said:


> My two cents: Start with BS6 + Zobel.
> It’s easier to build and it has been verified by many in this thread. I will build MASM 7 soon and I will report if it’s worth building.
> 
> Usually @dhruvmeena96 is spot on in his descriptions, but it’s not always easy to replicate his results.
> ...


What are some good bass drivers to go along with masm 3 pro or finale 2 (priority on sub bass) ?


----------



## eunice

SupremusDoofus said:


> What are some good bass drivers to go along with masm 3 pro or finale 2 (priority on sub bass) ?


There is a recipe for finale 3 (it’s a finale 2 + a CI) but it’s very very hard to build. You need 3 tubes (2mm ID for ED and FED each and 1mmID for CI) and the CI has 3 dampers in a 1mm tube, that means you need to put 3 short pieces of 2mm tubes with the damper inside and the rest of the tubing is 1mmID. 
And the CI is still changing the mids of the Finale too much for my taste.

It’s not like throwing a new driver in and everything will be fine. All BA drivers are full range and with a crossover you introduce phase issues, cancellations and so on.


----------



## Xymordos

dhruvmeena96 said:


> The one used in MASM series
> 
> Just waiting for someone to help me with CI, ED, and a SWFK only
> 
> The conventional way of tuning and tri bore is okay



Never built something with the exact configs, but you could try a similar one to my 4xRAB driver config, below:

BK21610 - Zobel: 25ohm and 4.7uf, 2nd order Low pass: 47uf and 10ohms, 47uf and 15ohms, white damper  (15mm L x 2mm D PVC) out of phase
4 x RAB32063 - series-parallel 5uF + 38ohms zobel, (28ohms for cooler, 30ohms for warmer) in series, white damper (15mm L x 2mm D PVC) in phase
SWFK31736 - 0.2+0.33uf series (15mm L x 1mm D PVC) in phase

Replace the BK with CI, the 4xRAB with ED, and adjust the zobel and resistance slightly and it'll work. The ED29689 should be zobel with 48uf + 4.5ohms with full coil (I think...). Probably would want much more resistance on the CI than the BK though.


----------



## kmmm

eunice said:


> My two cents: Start with BS6 + Zobel.
> It’s easier to build and it has been verified by many in this thread. I will build MASM 7 soon and I will report if it’s worth building.
> 
> Usually @dhruvmeena96 is spot on in his descriptions, but it’s not always easy to replicate his results.
> ...




Thank you for your reply 

I have built the MASM pro (320033) and resonator.  I’m not shure what MASM 3 pro is? There are so many names an configurations around here my head is spinning...  looking forward to your impressions on the MASM7. I’ll go ahead and order another pair of 320033’s just in case...
I have not been looking at the Finale builds jet. The scary build is up next. I don’t find the building part that hard actually. But understanding the crossovers, tubings and BA configurations is nearly impossible for me... that’s why it would be helpful with some sketches...


----------



## eunice (Jul 8, 2019)

MASM 3 pro is RAB32033 + GQ + Resonator, so that is what you have built. Earlier it was called MASM v2 with resonator. Now it is called MASM 3 pro. @dhruvmeena96 tried to give everything a consistent naming scheme and he has renamed everything. But we are talking about the same setup.

I did not like the scary at all, the mids are just off, it is too much V shaped for my taste. I do know that some people love this signature, but it is absolutely not my cup of tea.

The BS6 + Zobel Sketch is in the soundlink product Description for the BS6.

Here are updated schematics for my most important builds:

Masm 3 pro https://crcit.net/c/4c8ad023

BS6 + Zobel https://crcit.net/c/49f54ed9

Finale 2 Reference CIEM https://crcit.net/c/7d75c8a5

Finale 3 CIEM https://crcit.net/c/bd30416c

Comparison MASM with resonator vs BS6 (and others): https://www.head-fi.org/threads/home-made-iems.430688/page-603#post-14961816

Comparison Finale 2 Reference, Finale 3, BS6: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/home-made-iems.430688/page-627#post-15023250



Spoiler: Schematics as PNG



MASM 3, AKA MASM v2 + resonator






bs6 + zobel




Finale 2 reference CIEM




Finale 3 CIEM


----------



## dhruvmeena96

eunice said:


> I spent the last hours testing three different pair of CIEM.
> 
> *Setup*
> 
> ...


Why did I never noticed this review.(well I did, that I noticed recently lol)

Well if I explain the MASM7
It is BS6zobel + MASM3 to be easy

It has best of both world.
No cons so far
If I go with his explanation and listen to Amy whinehouse, it has this detail retrieval of MASM 3 series but at same time has more hefty and dynamic bass presence.

More of Balanced v shape. But this v shape is more balanced and peak less and tends toward the MASM3 for vocal presentation

It is like HD600(BS6) and Focal Elex(MASM7)

Both have same type of low end and mids, but Elex has more detail retrieval and more intimacy to soundstage limit


----------



## dhruvmeena96

kmmm said:


> Thank you for your reply
> 
> I have built the MASM pro (320033) and resonator.  I’m not shure what MASM 3 pro is? There are so many names an configurations around here my head is spinning...  looking forward to your impressions on the MASM7. I’ll go ahead and order another pair of 320033’s just in case...
> I have not been looking at the Finale builds jet. The scary build is up next. I don’t find the building part that hard actually. But understanding the crossovers, tubings and BA configurations is nearly impossible for me... that’s why it would be helpful with some sketches...


MASM(series name)
<number>(number of drivers)
Pro(MASM series suffix) or ultimate(pro series suffix), enhanced, reference, excite , spark, rebirth , legend(type of sound)


MASM is DIY open version of Pro series lineup I am going to make soon as my venture

Pro will have higher calibration to all point accuracy in FR, higher quality parts, some patent coating, better ergonomic shells with proof certificate and best of accessories



Single driver series
Pro 1(RAB32033-p) - enjoyment single driver, monitor tending
Pro 1 equilibrium(RAB32063-p) - balanced sound, monitoring
Pro 1reference(RAF-p + 20ohms) - reference near diffuse field with no roll off bass
Pro 1 mk2 (RAB32066-p) - high impedance zero damper solution sound
Pro 1 ultimate(FFC-p) -ferrofluid controlled damperless driver config and custom Zobel .
Final 1 - etymotic style shell but with FED driver , spout and limitless treble extension and no roll off.


Dual driver
Pro 2- Savant pro is also a second name,better subbass and less veil compared to original savant
Pro 2 signature(GQ-p) - uses GQ30710 with RAB-p horn, sounds more airy and bassy compared to RAB-p or Pro1 series. Signature term was used as that was my signature sound and where I started
Final 2 - also known as savant finale, this is where the quest for dual driver really ends. Crazy enough detail to make mind boggle, it is just about details and it measures near to savant also, but 5x times details, stage and image.
Details make bass less noticeable also


3 drivers or more

MASM series - linear bass to treble extension, least amount of peaks and all details, for mastering or critical listening.

Final 3 conventional - Final 2 with CI

Final 3 mk2- FED30048 and dual high inductance RAB


----------



## kmmm

Thank you! This was most informative. The schematics is just what I needed. Thank you!!


----------



## Shartundra

Hi, I'm currently in the process of building my first IEMs for which I am using the Knowles GK-31732 drivers. I ordered a bunch of different dampers, what would be the best combination of dampers for this driver? Thank you


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jul 8, 2019)

kmmm said:


> Thank you! This was most informative. The schematics is just what I needed. Thank you!!


Which setup schematics you need
As I am 500km away from home, I won't be able to compile every setup in a doc

So its would be better that I write down the set you need


----------



## dhruvmeena96

eunice said:


> There is a recipe for finale 3 (it’s a finale 2 + a CI) but it’s very very hard to build. You need 3 tubes (2mm ID for ED and FED each and 1mmID for CI) and the CI has 3 dampers in a 1mm tube, that means you need to put 3 short pieces of 2mm tubes with the damper inside and the rest of the tubing is 1mmID.
> And the CI is still changing the mids of the Finale too much for my taste.
> 
> It’s not like throwing a new driver in and everything will be fine. All BA drivers are full range and with a crossover you introduce phase issues, cancellations and so on.


Nah actually he can buy small size dampers...but they are hard to remove, so its a choice


----------



## eunice

Shartundra said:


> Hi, I'm currently in the process of building my first IEMs for which I am using the Knowles GK-31732 drivers. I ordered a bunch of different dampers, what would be the best combination of dampers for this driver? Thank you



This is @dhruvmeena96 suggestion:


dhruvmeena96 said:


> I use green on CI(center of tube) and brown on TWFK(on 3/4 lenght away from spout)



My suggestion is to use two tubes and put the dampers at the tip so you can add/remove them after you have assembled your IEM. That way you can easily experiment. I think it needs to be damped a little more, but I never really liked the GK any way.


----------



## eunice

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Which setup schematics you need
> As I am 500km away from home, I won't be able to compile every setup in a doc
> 
> So its would be better that I write down the set you need


I guess the post was an answer to my post above https://www.head-fi.org/threads/home-made-iems.430688/page-636#post-15051126 

Would you check if I made any mistakes in drawing the schematics?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

eunice said:


> I guess the post was an answer to my post above https://www.head-fi.org/threads/home-made-iems.430688/page-636#post-15051126
> 
> Would you check if I made any mistakes in drawing the schematics?


They are fine
MASM 3 grey damper is actually important.
I tried it without grey damper and tries itself to get into sibilance sometimes


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Hmmm
@eunice

Do you find MASM sibilant.
Changing grey filter to above value may decrease sibilance

You may be treble sensitive.

@Xymordos
You have ED29689 zobel
Is it tested....

And 48uF is too high for capacitance, dont you think


And One more thing

MASM legend(MASM 3 with SWFK 32255) sounds better than Final series as a overall sound

Final still is undefeatable in mid range detail


----------



## Xymordos

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Hmmm
> @eunice
> 
> 
> ...



I'm not sure if my zobel calculations are correct haha, but I do know that ED29689 is 1mh at 20Hz (0.2mh at half coil).


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jul 9, 2019)

Xymordos said:


> I'm not sure if my zobel calculations are correct haha, but I do know that ED29689 is 1mh at 20Hz (0.2mh at half coil).


Then I will go with this
Well did you calculate the inductance

If it is true, then this might work amazing




Add a 20ohm resistor 

Then add zobel

1.13uF cap
30ohm resistor

ED29689 -> resistor -> zobel

If going for er4s diy 1kHz 100ohms(exact)

Then 

0.064uF
125 ohms


----------



## Xymordos

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Then I will go with this
> Well did you calculate the inductance
> 
> If it is true, then this might work amazing



No, someone actually sent me the inductance table here for 29689 a long time ago...but I forgot who...


----------



## eunice

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Hmmm
> @eunice
> 
> Do you find MASM sibilant.
> ...



I would not call it sibilant, but just short of sibilant. Only in some source material I would say it becomes sibilant, e.g. in classical music with a lot going on at the same time the highs definitively become shouty. 

It is a very good set, but when it is pushed to its limits the treble is too much and starts to hurt. 

If the BS6+Zobel is pushed to its limits the soundstage breaks down and it does not become annoying. 

Could you give us s full recipe for MASM 3 legend? Do you replace the RAB with the SWFK?


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jul 9, 2019)

eunice said:


> I would not call it sibilant, but just short of sibilant. Only in some source material I would say it becomes sibilant, e.g. in classical music with a lot going on at the same time the highs definitively become shouty.
> 
> It is a very good set, but when it is pushed to its limits the treble is too much and starts to hurt.
> 
> ...


RAB remains there, it is to make the treble not roll off


RAB and SWFK share the tubing


I am using 1uF for SWFK crossover

You can go lower


The SWFK used is SWFK32255


And it is MASM 3 normal(32033) with SWFK
It might be MASM 5 legend


New tuning parameters

GQ center damper grey can be increased till you get zero sibilance from all music type you listen(I though I nailed the treble as all of my music type is non sibilant)
White will be enough

Then use SWFK32255 with custom capacitor value according to tastes again.


Warning: dont use other SWFK, otherwise you can get ear damage by high frequency sibilance(lol)
Tried and its unbearable


----------



## eunice

So it should be called MASM 4 then?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

eunice said:


> So it should be called MASM 4 then?


It has 5 driver
GQ is dual.
SWFK us dual 
RAB is single


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jul 9, 2019)

Well I think I should conclude the whole MASM series now.


I might start working with ED29689 and other driver

Let's see how the zobel works

(Mobile autocorrect is dangerous)


----------



## AndroidVageta

Anyone got a pair of .75mm 2-pin female plugs I can get for cheap? I can seem to only find stuff from China that'll take too long or stuff in the US but for way too much money for far too many.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

AndroidVageta said:


> Anyone got a pair of .75mm 2-pin female plugs I can get for cheap? I can seem to only find stuff from China that'll take too long or stuff in the US but for way too much money for far too many.


Get mmcx, you will get it for cheap in US too


----------



## AndroidVageta

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Get mmcx, you will get it for cheap in US too


Already have a really good 2-pin cable and prefer it. MMCX seems too unreliable.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

AndroidVageta said:


> Already have a really good 2-pin cable and prefer it. MMCX seems too unreliable.


And I have opposite thoughts on 2pin. No one lasted a week.

But aliexpress might be a good place

Just see for aliexpress premium shipping for 2$ extra.

It will reach your place in 15days max


----------



## dhruvmeena96

@Xymordos 

That zobel kinda works actually.

But I have this issue with treble being somewhat weird
If I add a 20ohm and then make a zobel, it works nicely.

But I think RAB still wins for the sound it offers after zobel.

I have to see the fine tuned value for ED29689 zobel


----------



## Xymordos

dhruvmeena96 said:


> @Xymordos
> 
> That zobel kinda works actually.
> 
> ...



That's good to know  Did you try a white damper? Also aren't you using it with a SWFK driver? Personally I might roll off the high treble with a first order low pass and let the SWFK take over. I didn't do it on the RAB since the RAB's treble extension is much less than the 29689.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Xymordos said:


> That's good to know  Did you try a white damper? Also aren't you using it with a SWFK driver? Personally I might roll off the high treble with a first order low pass and let the SWFK take over. I didn't do it on the RAB since the RAB's treble extension is much less than the 29689.


For CI, ED and SWFK

I think I might use SWFK32254(so dampers are unneeded)
For CI and ED

I might see

I was thinking of using HE for a moment though
Knowles HE and SWFK



MASM legend update for perfect never hot treble

GQ grey damper swapped with brown.

More smoother and flatter treble


----------



## wardy

dhruvmeena96 said:


> They look very good for first timer(I always fail at shells though)
> 
> By the way, amazing driver to start with
> 
> Actually this driver can reach bigger stage than GK with some tube hacks



This post was a little while ago but I would love to hear how you got the best out of this driver, what do you suggest doing?
In case you cant remember it was the RAB-32257
Cheers.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jul 11, 2019)

wardy said:


> This post was a little while ago but I would love to hear how you got the best out of this driver, what do you suggest doing?
> In case you cant remember it was the RAB-32257
> Cheers.


Well i was trying to disturb the balance of soundstage and image and actually made it very large sounding at expense of imaging


That was later made RAB-p after some tuning etc which sounds very nice


You can try RAB-p/pro 1 tubing, damper and zobel in custom iem shell.


The tubing consist of Horn and mouth.

The mouth act as a resonator and shifts the response of 3kHz peak 150Hz back.

Horn helps the treble to gain some boosting as RAB are weaker than ED in treble department.

White damper or brown damper(according to taste)


Zobel helps deloading the driver by fixing its impedance ratio, electrical phase. This makes it more easier to drive, stresses the amp less, which leads to less distortion. It also helps with selection of amplifier(due to very low impedance swings). Noticeable sound difference of zobel are:
1. Better mid clarity.
2. Effortlessness type of feeling
3. Better staging and imaging
4. Better treble shaping.



But Zobel are like garnishing or icing on cake. The major difference comes from tubing and damper arrangement. Zobel effects are very much noticeable but it doesnt change the signature..


@wardy


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jul 11, 2019)

wolkegeist said:


> Would you kindly attach the links to those Drivers pls.


Sorry for late reply
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/home-made-iems.430688/page-584

The links is on that page

I think piezo are good at producing the amount of air(air volume moved) like planar do. Well, it works better if only tuned to produce air as it will give the feeling of more airy stage


----------



## Xymordos

dhruvmeena96 said:


> For CI, ED and SWFK
> 
> I think I might use SWFK32254(so dampers are unneeded)
> For CI and ED
> ...



I've never used a damper for the 31736 either actually. But I think the ED29689 will definitely need a damper. 

Oh, I just thought of something. You could try this setup for CI+ED+SWFK:

CI22955, C=6.8uf R=20ohms, white filter [1mm x 10mm PVC]
ED29689, C=2.2uf R=10ohms (need to test this), white filter [1mm x 10mm PVC] 
SWFK, C=0.13uf

Should get you a pretty flat response.


----------



## Choy Wei De

Just watching some random video on Youtube and I saw people spray paint hydro dip their stuff. Do you guys think the idea is good? probably need to apply lacquer as final coat.


----------



## MuZo2

Tubeless custom iem from FIR audio using DD, BA and electrostatic.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jul 12, 2019)

Xymordos said:


> I've never used a damper for the 31736 either actually. But I think the ED29689 will definitely need a damper.
> 
> Oh, I just thought of something. You could try this setup for CI+ED+SWFK:
> 
> ...


White dampers are weak for ED29689, from my old experience.


Final 2 mk II(zero damper edition)
The original Final 2 has its own advantages, this has its own


Knowles FED30048
Knowles FED30027

Same tube configuration as Final 2 but with a twist

FED30048 (2mm ID/ 7.5mm~8mm length tube, No damper) + 25ohm resistor

Knowles FED30027( 2mm ID/ 9.5mm~10mm length tube, No damper)


This is full parallel mode



I will be introducing a crossover edition of Final 2, which will have 48ohm impedance.

And FED30048 zobel will also be introduced

I am working on that


And a ferrofluid driver zobel may be the next big thing as zobel equalizes voltage(impedance spikes), this may lead to less heat generation and more stability.

@eunice @Xymordos


----------



## dhruvmeena96

MuZo2 said:


> Tubeless custom iem from FIR audio using DD, BA and electrostatic.


Damm that looks nice....

Is that the place you kept for Apex module(with white type paper)

And is the tube from dynamic driver a pressure release front or back


----------



## MuZo2

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Damm that looks nice....
> 
> Is that the place you kept for Apex module(with white type paper)
> 
> And is the tube from dynamic driver a pressure release front or back



its from FIR audio, he is the designer of 64audio and now started his own company.


----------



## SupremusDoofus

What do you guys think about this : https://www.reddit.com/r/DIEMs/comments/cbng8t/a_4_page_paper_of_how_sound_tubes_affect_iems_in/


----------



## tomekk

In my opinion, the best summary is the fact that big companies (and CF can afford it) can introduce their own custom driver versions, so Hodvtec is not stock Hodvtec etc.... that's why you can't always model on tubes and driver appearance.  Because there is something completely different inside metal housing.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jul 11, 2019)

SupremusDoofus said:


> What do you guys think about this : https://www.reddit.com/r/DIEMs/comments/cbng8t/a_4_page_paper_of_how_sound_tubes_affect_iems_in/


Well 1 point he missed

The closer the damper is to the spout, it dampens the spout resonance or peaks more(rolls off less). This area is has highest escape velocity and pressure so lack of dynamics or slowdown effect is least.
 The damper in center of tube dampens {spout + 1/2 tube} resonance but rolls of more(peaks are not damped properly or damped too much(depend how you design). Slow down is noticeable(dont confuse with phase and all, it is the pressure sense of ears).

On tube ends it dampens {Tube + earcanal effective reflection back} and slow down is noticeable. It has highest roll off. Well why didn't I mention spout here, as the effective resonance of spout is changed by the whole tube after which it is damped..


Well, you can go with his guide, its easier to follow

I am still reading it


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jul 13, 2019)

Xymordos said:


> I've never used a damper for the 31736 either actually. But I think the ED29689 will definitely need a damper.
> 
> Oh, I just thought of something. You could try this setup for CI+ED+SWFK:
> 
> ...



Did it, pretty neutral(I mean its very neutral but extended)

But white damper kinda gives it glare type of mids(to overpowering upper mids). Its like over sharp. I used conventional green and it was kinda fixed.

I was working with DTEC-30008. Nice driver after zobel. Zobelling it makes the whole impedance come down to ~31.5 ohms aggregate and the speed boost is significant . Other driver is DTEC-30265(not using for this build)
Now the question is I can cross them at 72Hz easily with the classic crossover Rc= 100ohm, Cc= 22uF.
Now the question is, how to cross the RAB32063(it will have the zobel). Capacitor selection is hard....and seriously I don't know how to really cross stuff with RC circuits.
I can also go full range on both, but I dont think its worth it for my knowledge as I want to learn some crossover stuff.

And one more thing, if we take a physical non ideal full range driver and take out the lower frequency, the transient increases significantly. The best point is 100Hz and bellow(coming from speaker building knowledge).

But I will post a full range model with HODVTEC, RAB and a SWFK(update)


----------



## ForceMajeure (Jul 13, 2019)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Damm that looks nice....
> 
> Is that the place you kept for Apex module(with white type paper)
> 
> And is the tube from dynamic driver a pressure release front or back


back vent. if you look carefully you can see the front of the driver shooting inside the entire shell. it's probably low passed or/and has a very small slit at the nozzle or along the apex tubing just for it to act has a low pass. I have no idea though


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jul 13, 2019)

@Xymordos @piotrus-g @Kulgrinda @Choy Wei De
Can you guys fit a 12.5mm x 12.5mm x 6mm componemet inside a shell with HODTEC, RAB and SWFK inside.

Its a Bourns inductor of 390uH value


----------



## Choy Wei De

dhruvmeena96 said:


> @Xymordos @piotrus-g @Kulgrinda @Choy Wei De
> Can you guys fit a 12.5mm x 12.5mm x 6mm componemet inside a shell with HODTEC, RAB and SWFK inside.
> 
> Its a Bourns inductor of 390uH value



I can’t. Maybe possible if I change to a bigger shell, and the tube is as short at pro 2 and final 2.


----------



## ForceMajeure (Jul 13, 2019)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> @Xymordos @piotrus-g @Kulgrinda @Choy Wei De
> Can you guys fit a 12.5mm x 12.5mm x 6mm componemet inside a shell with HODTEC, RAB and SWFK inside.
> 
> Its a Bourns inductor of 390uH value


look at Coilcraft. They probably have more values around 330 but there might be a small enough one at 390uH
also you need to take into consideration the DCR since it can play an ever bigger role than 330 vs 390 depending on what you try too achieve


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jul 13, 2019)

ForceMajeure said:


> look at Coilcraft. They probably have more values around 330 but there might be a small enough one at 390uH
> also you need to take into consideration the DCR since it can play an ever bigger role than 330 vs 390 depending on what you try too achieve


The Bourns version is 0.7ohms

https://uk.farnell.com/bourns/srr1260-391k/inductor-shielded-390uh-1a-10/dp/2531339

I will check coilcraft also

According to some known people(cannot name here, the thread and forum), LC crossover seems more better due to low energy and resistor parasitic losses.

My idea is 0.5uF on SWFK 32254 with 390uH(0.39mH) on HODVTEC high impedance 31516 and RAB32063 parallel with their own zobel(mixed zobel and not discreet due to space limitations).

And best part is that Bourns inductor is sealed, so no more EMF variable to play with.


Design is simple

Subwoofer, Mids, upper mids
HODVTEC 31516(dual vents closed)

Zobel
Rz= 214ohms
Cz= 0.220uF

Tubing
1.0mm ID/11mm length

Damper
Yellow damper after 4mm from spout



RAB 32063

Zobel
Rz= 38ohms
Cz= 5uF or nearby

Tubing
1.2mm ID/7mm length

Damper
Brown damper after 3mm from spout


Now fusing these zobel together and making these two driver in parallel


Adding a 0.39mH inductor in series to both of these parallel driver.

Tweeter above 10kHz
SWFK 32254 with 5uF or 4.7uF capacitor 


Voila

This is the setup


But if we can fit the inductor in shell, it will be amazing


----------



## ForceMajeure (Jul 14, 2019)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> The Bourns version is 0.7ohms
> 
> https://uk.farnell.com/bourns/srr1260-391k/inductor-shielded-390uh-1a-10/dp/2531339
> 
> ...



Coilcraft has smd shielded inductors as well. I use some of them.

I think your tubing ID for mids might be a bit small if you ask me. I don't know about size you'll choose for the highs but personally I try to avoid small ID diameter for mids and highs. I guess you'll have to trial and error it to see how it sounds. don't just go by the graph. But like everything in this craft, every case is different. so trial and error is key.

Also just think of this but if you don't care about the look you could basically mount the inductor on top so it's part of the faceplate (some of it could be sitting lower like iceberg do in the water if you get the analogy)


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jul 14, 2019)

ForceMajeure said:


> Coilcraft has smd shielded inductors as well. I use some of them.
> 
> I think your tubing ID for mids might be a bit small if you ask me. I don't know about size you'll choose for the highs but personally I try to avoid small ID diameter for mids and highs. I guess you'll have to trial and error it to see how it sounds. don't just go by the graph. But like everything in this craft, every case is different. so trial and error is key.
> 
> Also just think of this but if you don't care about the look you could basically mount the inductor on top so it's part of the faceplate (some of it could be sitting lower like iceberg do in the water if you get the analogy)


Just checked
Coilcraft and Bourns are of same profile (coilcraft mss1048)

But I get that, I have more options of inductor to go with in coilcraft own website(plus way smaller option like 5x5mm also)


----------



## Choy Wei De

Anyone has source for Lack3 from Taobao or AliExpress? Not ready to commit to huge quality yet. Just exploring ways to make my shells look for professional and shiny.

Open for suggestion for other methods.


----------



## ivanflo

Choy Wei De said:


> Anyone has source for Lack3 from Taobao or AliExpress? Not ready to commit to huge quality yet. Just exploring ways to make my shells look for professional and shiny.
> 
> Open for suggestion for other methods.



I purchased from SoundLink on Aliexpress, who will do separate shipping thing, i think via sea freight down to Australia, which sucks pretty hard. Still waiting for it to arrive. 
I asked him how long it will take, the answer i got back was "I have no idea", haha. 

I did try purchasing via TaoBao, but it got knocked back at shipping,


----------



## Kulgrinda

Choy Wei De said:


> Anyone has source for Lack3 from Taobao or AliExpress? Not ready to commit to huge quality yet. Just exploring ways to make my shells look for professional and shiny.
> 
> Open for suggestion for other methods.



https://www.mcear.de/epages/78599304.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/78599304/Products/8042


----------



## dhruvmeena96

dhruvmeena96 said:


> The Bourns version is 0.7ohms
> 
> https://uk.farnell.com/bourns/srr1260-391k/inductor-shielded-390uh-1a-10/dp/2531339
> 
> ...


replying to myself

this thing works
till the HODVTEC and RAB only


----------



## kusanagi03 (Jul 16, 2019)

ForceMajeure said:


> Thanks, yes you are right the sonion 33AJ007i/9 have a tiny small vent between the soldering pads. So if I understand correctly the 33AJ007i/9 is equivalent to the DTEC series but is vented.
> So far the sonion have nice bass with good punch oomphs (the vent is helping).
> 
> 
> ...



What are the cons of using a Male 0.75mm C Pin Cable from KZ if inserted to a 0.78mm IEM, im planning to use my KZ Aptx HD Bluetooth Cable on a Tfz no. 3 or a TFZ T2 IEMs. will this work?, i heard that if a 0.78mm cable can widen the holes of the 0.75mm but what about the other way around?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

kusanagi03 said:


> What are the cons of using a Male 0.75mm C Pin Cable from KZ if inserted to a 0.78mm IEM, im planning to use my KZ Aptx HD Bluetooth Cable on a Tfz no. 3 or a TFZ T2 IEMs. will this work?, i heard that if a 0.78mm cable can widen the holes of the 0.75mm but what about the other way around?


Its homemade iem group(sorry but it was necessary)
And I think all sorts of connection are bad, Jerry Harvey mini xlr type of connector(instead of 2pin), Hirose U.FL (mmcx)connectors are way better


----------



## wolkegeist

Does anyone has experiences with making 3D printing shells? I saw an old post on reddit about a guy making Campfire shells, but he didn’t share the file, only pictures.
Can anyone help me with making 3D model?
Here’s the link


----------



## eunice

Fact: all passive electronic filters (like the RC lowpass/highlands we regularly use here) introduce a phase shift for all frequencies that are not passed through 100%. 

My question: does that also hold true for acoustic filters like the dampers we use? Do they introduce phase shift?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

eunice said:


> Fact: all passive electronic filters (like the RC lowpass/highlands we regularly use here) introduce a phase shift for all frequencies that are not passed through 100%.
> 
> My question: does that also hold true for acoustic filters like the dampers we use? Do they introduce phase shift?


They dont introduce phase shifts, but is like cotton muffling details and changing the pressure waveform which change the sound profile also


----------



## Kulgrinda

kusanagi03 said:


> What are the cons of using a Male 0.75mm C Pin Cable from KZ if inserted to a 0.78mm IEM, im planning to use my KZ Aptx HD Bluetooth Cable on a Tfz no. 3 or a TFZ T2 IEMs. will this work?, i heard that if a 0.78mm cable can widen the holes of the 0.75mm but what about the other way around?



A bit off topic but I can share my experience. The difference between 0.75 and 0.78 is so marginal I haven't noticed any fit issues. Just recently bought a TRN T2 balanced cable and it works fine with all my 0.78 earphones. This cable is really good quality, sounds spacious and solid, there is very little microphonics and it costs less than 10 USD. I will buy it again.


----------



## Kulgrinda

wolkegeist said:


> Does anyone has experiences with making 3D printing shells? I saw an old post on reddit about a guy making Campfire shells, but he didn’t share the file, only pictures.
> Can anyone help me with making 3D model?
> Here’s the link


I have just ordered couple of 3D printed IEMs in my local 3D print shop, order will be done this week. For one of the designs I used this one:
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1393636

You can try browsing Thingiverse, there are several designs available. 

As for the prints my 3D printing shop will use some kind of UV plastic so I hope shells will look much nicer than printed with regular plastic. I'll share the results when I get them.


----------



## eunice

Kulgrinda said:


> As for the prints my 3D printing shop will use some kind of UV plastic so I hope shells will look much nicer than printed with regular plastic. I'll share the results when I get them.


Ne careful what you put in your ears. There is a difference between plastics and if they are rated for skin contact or not.


----------



## Kulgrinda

eunice said:


> Ne careful what you put in your ears. There is a difference between plastics and if they are rated for skin contact or not.


True. I will probably have to sand the surface if it is not smooth and then cover it with Dreve varnish which is skin safe.


----------



## eunice

Yes. Or give the 3D print shop some skin safe resin, if they print using UV that might work.


----------



## kusanagi03

Kulgrinda said:


> A bit off topic but I can share my experience. The difference between 0.75 and 0.78 is so marginal I haven't noticed any fit issues. Just recently bought a TRN T2 balanced cable and it works fine with all my 0.78 earphones. This cable is really good quality, sounds spacious and solid, there is very little microphonics and it costs less than 10 USD. I will buy it again.


Sorry about this, im new to forums, will be more careful next time. but thanks for the response


----------



## kusanagi03

Kulgrinda said:


> A bit off topic but I can share my experience. The difference between 0.75 and 0.78 is so marginal I haven't noticed any fit issues. Just recently bought a TRN T2 balanced cable and it works fine with all my 0.78 earphones. This cable is really good quality, sounds spacious and solid, there is very little microphonics and it costs less than 10 USD. I will buy it again.



Hi almost forgot to ask. What about sound quality any difference?


----------



## Kulgrinda

kusanagi03 said:


> Hi almost forgot to ask. What about sound quality any difference?


Sound quality is good. At first it sounded boomy and moody, but after 20 or so hours I cannot hear difference between my diy thich silver plated cable and this one. Plus this one is much more comfortable for iem, less microhonics, flexible, lighter.


----------



## Xymordos

Any one seen these drivers from Knowles before? Found nothing online.

https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1z0d.7625083.1998302264.5.5c5f4e69pCbuQ1&id=595778221628


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Xymordos said:


> Any one seen these drivers from Knowles before? Found nothing online.
> 
> https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1z0d.7625083.1998302264.5.5c5f4e69pCbuQ1&id=595778221628


it is a research driver with highest standards

well, the thing is that, this driver is amazing

well you can use it without damper and a zobel and it will shine the details through... i myself ordered it recently


----------



## Xymordos

dhruvmeena96 said:


> it is a research driver with highest standards
> 
> well, the thing is that, this driver is amazing
> 
> well you can use it without damper and a zobel and it will shine the details through... i myself ordered it recently



No wonder I can't find it on Knowles. It's really expensive to use though


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jul 18, 2019)

@Choy Wei De and I am working on a new series

PoorManMonitors(PMM in short form)

Going back to simple, small and very cheap driver builds. The roots to be exact.

And a project I am working on

MASM 3 x Final aka SpeedRecord(Final Damperless DNA, MASM style sound)


3 drivers, no dampers
The most punchy bass (I mean literally BK bass to be exact, but damperless, so expect the speed)


This tuning is all about speed

It can make you think that music is on 1.2x at some instances.


----------



## wolkegeist

dhruvmeena96 said:


> @Choy Wei De and I am working on a new series
> 
> PoorManMonitors(PMM in short form)
> 
> ...


Is this design MASM without damper, same configuration as normal MASM?
Btw I’m think about learning abit of 3D modelling to make the dream Campfire shell lol. I love their design.
Anw does anyone know how campfire iem TAEC technology works? Is it just a big resonator?


----------



## tomekk

Probably it's something that's now on time also in 64 and FiR that is tubeless design, which requires printing plastic parts instead of classic PVC tubes. Tubeless, damperless. The chamber compensates and regulates what the PVC tube and fIlters does classically.  In Diy it is practically unprofitable, in mass production so, because you assemble everything like lego bricks and make money without jewelry precision.


----------



## wolkegeist

tomekk said:


> Probably it's something that's now on time also in 64 and FiR that is tubeless design, which requires printing plastic parts instead of classic PVC tubes. Tubeless, damperless. The chamber compensates and regulates what the PVC tube and fIlters does classically.  In Diy it is practically unprofitable, in mass production so, because you assemble everything like lego bricks and make money without jewelry precision.


I think it’s quite a good design when you want to save spaces, because some configurations need very long tube. It works for small shell design tho.


----------



## tomekk

wolkegeist said:


> think it’s quite a good design



As long as you have a finished design!  And you don't change it several dozen times.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jul 18, 2019)

wolkegeist said:


> Is this design MASM without damper, same configuration as normal MASM?
> Btw I’m think about learning abit of 3D modelling to make the dream Campfire shell lol. I love their design.
> Anw does anyone know how campfire iem TAEC technology works? Is it just a big resonator?


Yah, but the drivers are slightly changed

For TAEC, it is treble pressure reduction resonator which actually started working properly from gen 2 of Andromeda.
It is a big 3D printed adapter for spoutless BA, which helps the BA eliminate small spout resonance and some other resonance, which leads to peakless lower treble.

This type of design can be done to any spoutless BA also, to preserve how the driver peaks internally and not effected by any factors.


Well, the more I am listening to Andromeda nowadays, the more I am getting away from it.
I started finding its signature weird even though it produces good stage.

I find that the design sacrificed a lot here and there in tuning to get the stage perfect.
Things like cohesiveness and imaging is affected a lot. I can feel tweeter firing very different from other three bassy drivers.

The iems which do a better job in same price category
Shure 846 (4drivers)
AKG N5005 (5 drivers)
Meze Rai penta (5drivers)
Sony IER M7 and M9(4drivers and 5 drivers)




8 driver flagship setup for @Jedrula1 or any other sonion guy

Sonion 38D1XJ007Mi/8a series wired(full range electronically, damped by internal factors, dampers and L-pad)

L-pad
Rseries = 4.7ohms
Rparallel = 4.7ohms

Damper= Yellow at center
Tube= 2mm ID x 12mm length

Sonion 33AJ007i series wired(crossed high)

Crossover (its a high pass, please remember that)
Rc= 47ohms
Cc= 10uF

Rc goes parallel
Cc goes in series

Damper = Yellow damper between center of tube and spout
Tube= 2mm ID x 12mm length

Sonion 2389D center pass parallel(crossed high, its dual version of 2389....and added extra 2ohms)

Center tap parallel , but try to keep phase normal and same to other two set of drivers.

Capacitor series= 2.2uF

Damper= Brown damper
Tube= 2mm ID x 12mm length


Sonion EST65DA01(crossed electrostatic tweeter, damped with Sonion 2389D in same tube)

Capacitor series = 470nF


I have been working in these driver for past few days and came out with this setup

Lowest THD and Harman Kardon response curve till 12kHz, after that, limitless airy treble(to increase the perception of stage while keeping it perfectly rounded)



SpeedRecord is

Knowles GU-32829

Knowles RAB32066(new zobel, this is different driver and not from the 20~22ohm lineup RAB/RAF series).


Same tubing and setup, no dampers on both of the drivers.


----------



## tomekk

Speaking of electrostat. I don't know what will appear first: Proper use of this driver in the whole project, or an explanation why using this driver makes sense. Like a double double elecrostat, for example. My dog would be happy. I can probably hear to about 16.5khz (33 years old). 

EE 


> Granted, anything over 20kHz is not audible to your average person, but a driver possessing the agility requisite to stably operate at those higher frequencies is also capable of resolution and detail unparalleled by any other type of driver.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

tomekk said:


> Speaking of electrostat. I don't know what will appear first: Proper use of this driver in the whole project, or an explanation why using this driver makes sense. Like a double double elecrostat, for example. My dog would be happy. I can probably hear to about 16.5khz (33 years old).
> 
> EE


I am crossing it at 16kHz nearby with -3dB slope

Electrostatic driver usage it lift the rolling of treble from current design(and its with every super high pass driver). The added benefit of raised driver is added speed which is heard as fundamental tone with the remaining shimmer from slow speed device.

Second, there is an advantage of hearing till 24kHz on higher range and below 10Hz on low range.

And by actual standards, musical fundamental data is till 14kHz, so we don't actually need a tweeter, but it is added for raising the the response of the rolling of treble, so we cab hear subtle details properly.

But doing a crazy high pass like 220nF on SWFK is not a good option until or unless you have some crazy dip on sensible treble region and you want a slope of -3dB to fill it in.

Electrostatic is added for lower distortion figures and a speedier response with lowest DPD and THD, and dual just boost the dB whilst keeping upper.value same, increasing signal in SNR. This helps in more clearer transient response and more clarity all over the treble which gives a feeling of effortlessness. And Dual EST can be crossed lower too



PoorManMonitors Series update

PMM-1
Single RAF, 10mm tube, 2mm ID, brown damper, zobel

PMM-2 Hybrid
10mm dynamic driver from Tonlen(aliexpress, the gold one with a spout infront) + 50ohm resistor + yellow damper x2

10mm tube, 1mm ID(adapt it with 2mm ID tube to get 1mm ID working)

RAF as above
Parallel to each other



PMM-2
RAF parallel, new zobel for parallel , 10ohm resistor

1st RAF : 2mm IDx 10mm length tube, brown damper
2nd RAF: 2mm IDx 10mm length tube, yellow damper x 2


PMM- 2 reference

RAF as PMM 1(same brown damper and everything)
Bellsing WBFK is shared with RAF with 470nF capacitors



I think these are cheap enough and justify the sound tuning

Hope you guys enjoy the PoorMan series like you enjoyed Pro(MASM is inside this series) and Final series.


----------



## tomekk

Your knowledge is invaluable here.  That would make sense, but I also noticed that most of the models that are presented in the configuration where EST is crossed below as the tweeter itself. I don't want to be an oracle, but if EST is currently a supercar, it will crash on the first corner, and WBFK and similar will be going on in 5 years. In the group CI and ED eternally alive.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jul 20, 2019)

tomekk said:


> Your knowledge is invaluable here.  That would make sense, but I also noticed that most of the models that are presented in the configuration where EST is crossed below as the tweeter itself. I don't want to be an oracle, but if EST is currently a supercar, it will crash on the first corner, and WBFK and similar will be going on in 5 years. In the group CI and ED eternally alive.


Well, its your tuning which is governer for that supercar.

Well, my analogy is

WBFK :- Supercharger
SWFK :-Hybrid KERS + supercharger
EST:- Twin turbo

it can be like Koenigsegg if tuned properly or can be like Ferrari F40, which is Rank 1 of the dangerous cars of all time.

in my above Sonion setup, Sonion 2389D is more than enough for treble, but i used EST for mix in. I crossed it nearby 15kHz and is also damped with Sonion 2389D's brown damper(as both of them share the tubing), just to get my treble to not roll off and go in a straight line



PoorMan 3 reference

RAF driver + zobel + 40ohms + brown damper(2mm ID x 10mm length)

Bellsing SWFK + 1uF capacitor + orange damper( 2mm ID x 10mm lenght)

PoorMan 3

RAF driver x 2 series + RAF in parallel + zobel

RAF driver x 2 share (2mm ID x 10mm length) + (yellow damper x2) bass unit

RAF driver solo ( 2mm ID x 10mm lenght) + (green damper) full range unit


All the PoorMan series is easy to make, no complex crossover stuff and is very cheap with keeping Universal shells in mind

They are tuned towards more consumer loving bass tuning or treble tuning which can be enjoyed by everyone and is not very tuning specific or tech specific


----------



## tomekk

As for BSWFK, you can check about +/- 700 nF (470+220), in most configurations I noticed (check every 100 nF) that this is the boundary between the transparency point and the transition to sybillance, assuming a project with a 2mm tube of 10-15mm. Maybe then a smaller damping will be possible. Second question: isn't it better to adjust the driver with more ohms but with the possibility to resign from filters?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

tomekk said:


> As for BSWFK, you can check about +/- 700 nF (470+220), in most configurations I noticed (check every 100 nF) that this is the boundary between the transparency point and the transition to sybillance, assuming a project with a 2mm tube of 10-15mm. Maybe then a smaller damping will be possible. Second question: isn't it better to adjust the driver with more ohms but with the possibility to resign from filters?


The more resistance you add, the capacitor value changes with impedance. If you put resistor before capacitor, it may have a damping and lowering of volume, but have noticed that peak structure changes to narrow Q or high kurtosis, which might lead to lower volume sibilance which is even more annoying. It sounds like sibilance but is bearable which makes the listening session longer as we find it comfortable but it pains a lot after a period of time


----------



## tomekk

That's right. I didn't specify exactly, but I meant a simplified WBFK, higher impedance but with less damping.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

tomekk said:


> That's right. I didn't specify exactly, but I meant a simplified WBFK, higher impedance but with less damping.


I just noticed you are from Warsaw
I was in Ursynow(I know there is a syllable on O, but I was not able to remember it) last week. Amazing place, must say. Govt trips are best.


@eunice wanna try PoorMan series or SpeedRecord.


----------



## eunice

dhruvmeena96 said:


> @eunice wanna try PoorMan series or SpeedRecord.


Yes, especially the PoorMan one with the DD, I have that around. But I don’t know the ‚new zobel‘ and what exact type of RAF you are referring to.
For speed record I think I am missing Knowles GU.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jul 20, 2019)

eunice said:


> Yes, especially the PoorMan one with the DD, I have that around. But I don’t know the ‚new zobel‘ and what exact type of RAF you are referring to.
> For speed record I think I am missing Knowles GU.


The vented basic cheapest RAF
DCR = 22ohms
Or, if you are a pro guy, go with RAF32902 non vented. Its a choice


----------



## tomekk

@dhruvmeena96 Wow, I remember Ursynów well because I went to school there. 

Poor - Fi Series. It won't ruin your pockets, but it will waste your life if you get into it.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

tomekk said:


> @dhruvmeena96 Wow, I remember Ursynów well because I went to school there.
> 
> Poor - Fi Series. It won't ruin your pockets, but it will waste your life if you get into it.


Well, it may not compared to MASM or Pro 1/RAB-p

But as the driver count increases, the sound quality increases and the possibility of tuning parameters


----------



## wolkegeist

@dhruvmeena96 what is the zobel configure for dual RAF parallel tho. I read that someone made dual RAF parallel before with 55ohm in series, 660nF and 83ohm zobel. Not sure about the sound quality of it tho.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

wolkegeist said:


> @dhruvmeena96 what is the zobel configure for dual RAF parallel tho. I read that someone made dual RAF parallel before with 55ohm in series, 660nF and 83ohm zobel. Not sure about the sound quality of it tho.


OK

Dual parallel RAB32033
DCR= 11ohms
500Hz= 16.5ohms
500Hz inductance= 3.9mH

As inductor and resistor in parallel are reduced

Zobel
Cz=9.1uF
Rz=20.625ohms


Dual series RAB32033
DCR= 44ohms
500Hz= 66ohms
Inductance @500Hz = 7.8x 2= 15.6mH

Zobel
Cz= 2.3uF
Rz= 82.5ohms


For Dual parallel RAB + 10ohms(before zobel, my design)
Advantages are
Low impedance swing compared to single driver
Same or nearby DCR impedance as single driver 
Lower distortion
Somewhat cleaner and yet nicer sounding than both above
And as capacitor value drops, so is the amount of capacitor error, while doing this build

Drivers(in parallel) -> 10ohm -> zobel -> 

DCR= 21ohms[(22/2) + 11]
500Hz= 26.5ohms(compared to single driver 33ohms)
Inductance = 7.8mH/2( same like parallel driver )

Lower inductance fixes the rising impedance, and parallel fixes the impedance peak by 1/2. Raising resistance leads to lower and tighter impedance ratios before zobel. This leads to better extended driver in treble, where the RAB is weak while dual driver diaphragm area keeps the bass ratio intact.

Zobel
Cz=3.55uF
Rz=33.125ohms


----------



## eunice

dhruvmeena96 said:


> The vented basic cheapest RAF
> DCR = 22ohms
> Or, if you are a pro guy, go with RAF32902 non vented. Its a choice


And what Zobel? How much volume do you need behind the DD?


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jul 21, 2019)

eunice said:


> And what Zobel? How much volume do you need behind the DD?


Zobel Is for RAF only

Its is 33 ohms and 7.8mH at 500Hz
Cz= 4.6uF
Rz= 41ohms


Its like zobel to whole dynamic driver and RAF at same time.

Dynamic driver must be 16ohms (size is your choice...make it 10mm or 7mm)

Add 50ohms to it and parallel with a zobelled RAF

DCR will come near 16.50 with impedance being very flat.


You can experiments with different type of dynamic drivers. Going for 32ohms driver will need 34ohms of resistor.

Yellow damper x 2 for dynamic driver to convert its air mass function to air pressure function and damp it so subbass can shine. Use smaller ID tube, of possible , to cut off any HF . the resistor also helps in lowering the volume of dynamic driver and increase its speed response. What we want the dynamic driver to do is to increase the RAF bass and give a hint of dynamicness which BA generally lack due to their crazy transient speeds

RAF with zobel is full range with brown damper.

Enjoy


----------



## wolkegeist

dhruvmeena96 said:


> PMM-2
> RAF parallel, new zobel for parallel , 10ohm resistor
> 
> 1st RAF : 2mm IDx 10mm length tube, brown damper
> 2nd RAF: 2mm IDx 10mm length tube, yellow damper x 2


What is the new zobel for the parallel RAF configure?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

wolkegeist said:


> What is the new zobel for the parallel RAF configure?


As I said, RAF and RAB has same specs. So they will have same sort of zobel

Dual parallel RAF vented
DCR= 11ohms
500Hz= 16.5ohms
500Hz inductance= 3.9mH

As inductor and resistor in parallel are reduced

Zobel
Cz=9.1uF
Rz=20.625ohms


----------



## SupremusDoofus (Jul 23, 2019)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> it is a research driver with highest standards
> 
> well, the thing is that, this driver is amazing
> 
> well you can use it without damper and a zobel and it will shine the details through... i myself ordered it recently


The RDA contains two drivers sandwiched into one right? It looks a little weird. How is it compared to an rab or fed/ed?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

SupremusDoofus said:


> Can you guys recommend any good universal iem shells on aliexpress
> 
> The RDA contains two drivers sandwiched into one right? It looks a little weird. How is it compared to an rab or fed/ed?


it is like a wideband woofer rather than fullrange.
it is actually very good as solo.

using zobel helps a lot in this driver and compared RAB, you can use resonator and horn without damper, so it is superior to RAB. But it doesnt have the charm of FED.

what i can compare it to is FFC driver. FFC and this feels very same, but this sounds slightly more mature in its presentation by showing its speed.

But this driver is very resistive and kinda needs a lot of power


----------



## tomekk

wolkegeist said:


> Does anyone has experiences with making 3D printing shells? I saw an old post on reddit about a guy making Campfire shells, but he didn’t share the file, only pictures.
> Can anyone help me with making 3D model?
> Here’s the link



A more friendly solution to focus on audio parameters is to buy some cheap KZ headphones in the campfire style and adapt to the project. You have sockets and a cable in the set  maybe a cable to exchange for a better one. To investigate the question of whether there are any strange holders inside. Alternatively, you can grind it with a dremel drill inside.


----------



## wolkegeist

tomekk said:


> A more friendly solution to focus on audio parameters is to buy some cheap KZ headphones in the campfire style and adapt to the project. You have sockets and a cable in the set  maybe a cable to exchange for a better one. To investigate the question of whether there are any strange holders inside. Alternatively, you can grind it with a dremel drill inside.


I did bought a KZ ZSN shell and tried to make MASM 3. I’m working on the nozzle tho. The OG nozzle is just too small and I need to grind the nozzle mount and cast uv resin to fit 3 tubes configure lol. I’ll post the result later.


----------



## wolkegeist

@dhruvmeena96 @tomekk
Hey I finished the MASM 3 project.
3 bores design, 3 ID 2 OD for GQ, 2 OD 3 ID for RAB, 1 extra tube leads to the inner of the shell, which has 3 vents for extra stage. I took apart the zsn nozzle because it’s too small, amd cast resin on tubes.
Sounds ****ing fantastic. I really want to put swfk in but the shell can only fit that much because I use big resistor for zobel. Here are some pictures


----------



## dhruvmeena96

wolkegeist said:


> @dhruvmeena96 @tomekk
> Hey I finished the MASM 3 project.
> 3 bores design, 3 ID 2 OD for GQ, 2 OD 3 ID for RAB, 1 extra tube leads to the inner of the shell, which has 3 vents for extra stage. I took apart the zsn nozzle because it’s too small, amd cast resin on tubes.
> Sounds ****ing fantastic. I really want to put swfk in but the shell can only fit that much because I use big resistor for zobel. Here are some pictures


I didn't understood the 3bore design.
And did you do MASM 3 pro or Normal MASM 3
And what did you find fantastic in it. 
And what should be improved.


My comparison of all 3 drivers I have built

MASM3 : Tall and wide with normal depth, ability to render details to utmost precision.

MASM3 pro: way more increased perception of depth for slight sacrifice of height and width , tears up recording for mastering purposes, to much detailed yet enjoyable.

Reference advantage

MASM3 speed record: I guess, slightly intimate compared to MASM3 and 3pro, but details are even more presented and is superfast at bass decay and midrange. Things start and stop like handbrake. Impulse is very fast. 

Technical advantage

MASM 3 Enhanced: Authoritative bass, holographic depth but same height and width as normal MASM 3. Its mids are same as MASM but has some psuedo warmth. Treble is more softer and more forgiving but is smoother and even less peakier. 

Signature advantage


----------



## Kulgrinda

wolkegeist said:


> @dhruvmeena96 @tomekk
> Hey I finished the MASM 3 project.
> 3 bores design, 3 ID 2 OD for GQ, 2 OD 3 ID for RAB, 1 extra tube leads to the inner of the shell, which has 3 vents for extra stage. I took apart the zsn nozzle because it’s too small, amd cast resin on tubes.
> Sounds ****ing fantastic. I really want to put swfk in but the shell can only fit that much because I use big resistor for zobel. Here are some pictures


Do you loose bass with vented shell and 3rd tube?


----------



## wolkegeist (Jul 23, 2019)

Kulgrinda said:


> Do you loose bass with vented shell and 3rd tube?


@dhruvmeena96 actually I kinda not like the third tube tho sound tho. I thought it’s gonna add bass but it actually make it lose bass. I’m gonna uninstall it and fill the hole with resin tho. Mid and treb is good, with lot’s of detail, bass is lacking probably because of the third tube.
And I need anothe cable tho. I have some oyaide 102ssc to make cable. If you want cheap and fantastic cable I would suggest Oyaide HPC-26t 102ssc mini coaxial series, for like 8$-10$/meter, and their connectors are very good too.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jul 23, 2019)

Well
@Kulgrinda
@wolkegeist
@Xymordos
@Choy Wei De
@Furco
@Slater
@Rabid86
@Ivan TT
@IvanNOON
@eunice 

I am building some sets according to signature which a specific demographic of people love

Going to name it World series with specific country name as suffix


So I would like to collect some demographic data on people nearby you and their sound preferences.

Like V-shape etc etc.

Config would be simple enough for diy purposes and drivers would also be available online and not like sonion specified drivers.

Indian Version

World Indian version

HODVTEC-31618 + zobel + 200ohm(0.5% to 1% tolerance)
Yellow dampers x 2
2mm ID(10mm length)
Damper near spout
Damper at 3/4 of tube

Cz= 8uF
Rz= 31ohms

Both vents covered




Knowles ED29689 + 100ohm resistor(1% max tolerance)
Green damper
2mm ID(8mm length)
Green damper at 6mm

Let me tell you, these will need some juice to run

These are 70ohm DCR with relatively flat impedance. I have already tested it and it sounds like what I needed. Comfortable volume when used with DAP. And it sounds like a etymotic ER4S with a bass boost from 90Hz and sounds pretty lovely. Nothing can be faulted in the sound. And the bass boost is also very incredible to begin with.

Note is, that you need a good amount of power as high resistance and dual damper kinda acts like a blocker if power is not suitable enough.


You can go with 1/2 resistance on both drivers also
100ohms and 50ohms

Losses in signature is not big. Actually they will sound same, but as a tech guy(madman, lol) I needed lowest distortion, needed my BA to be insensitive to Hiss and linear in impedance ratio while having fastest impulse.




Well do share impulse of the measurement of IEM, as it tells the characteristics of an IEM, like soundstage etc. I will tell you guys how to read it(for those who don't know).


And I got deaf for some days(f**ked up my ears while testing a jet engine due to my colleague; he kept the inspection window opened as we revved up the engine, well I was pretty far away, but 177dB/1m at microphones is still enough to bleed ears. I was 10m away(the room was, dont know exactly how much I was away) and in contact for 10sec before I started to run for my life. Damm it, my ears are ringing)

Worry not, doctor said its fine. Gave me earplugs and some eardrops and 5 days rest. He said to not remove it for a day and just sleep and sleep as much I can. It will recover completely the next day but I will be sensitive for 5 days.


----------



## eunice

Is the Zobel in parallel to the resistor and the hodvtec or in parallel to the driver only?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

eunice said:


> Is the Zobel in parallel to the resistor and the hodvtec or in parallel to the driver only?


Here the zobel is just after the driver

Driver -> zobel -> resistor -> mmcx


----------



## SupremusDoofus

dhruvmeena96 said:


> I didn't understood the 3bore design.
> And did you do MASM 3 pro or Normal MASM 3
> And what did you find fantastic in it.
> And what should be improved.
> ...



What are the driver configs on MASM 3 Speed Record  and Enhanced?


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jul 23, 2019)

SupremusDoofus said:


> What are the driver configs on MASM 3 Speed Record  and Enhanced?




MASM 3 x Final aka SpeedRecord(Final Damperless DNA, MASM style sound)

Knowles GU
RAB32066(zobel, calculate with 500Hz value, online calculators are available and all RAB series driver inductance are given on its pro paper)- this is a high impedance RAB

3 drivers, no dampers, same tubing as reference MASM
This tuning is all about speed.




Enhanced

Knowles HE(brown and white dampers)
RAB32033(zobel)


----------



## dhruvmeena96

HODVTEC-31618 + zobel + 200ohm(0.5% to 1% tolerance)
Yellow dampers x 2
2mm ID(10mm length)
Damper near spout
Damper at 3/4 of tube

Cz= 8uF
Rz= 31ohms

Both vents covered




Knowles FED30048 + 80ohm resistor(1% max tolerance)
2mm ID(8mm length)
Green damper at 6mm


Final version of my world series
This version is more detailed and airy and slightly more mid-centric due to early rise for 2k peak


----------



## pace88 (Jul 23, 2019)

[QUOTE = "wolkegeist, post: 15078308, anggota: 505455"] [USER = 413452]


----------



## pace88

wolkegeist said:


> @dhruvmeena96 actually I kinda not like the third tube tho sound tho. I thought it’s gonna add bass but it actually make it lose bass. I’m gonna uninstall it and fill the hole with resin tho. Mid and treb is good, with lot’s of detail, bass is lacking probably because of the third tube.
> And I need anothe cable tho. I have some oyaide 102ssc to make cable. If you want cheap and fantastic cable I would suggest Oyaide HPC-26t 102ssc mini coaxial series, for like 8$-10$/meter, and their connectors are very good too.



why not try the damper at the end of the tube (vent) I see some use it, but I could be wrong


----------



## dhruvmeena96

pace88 said:


> why not try the damper at the end of the tube (vent) I see some use it, but I could be wrong


just use a small piece of tape there or blutack small blob


----------



## pace88

dhruvmeena96 said:


> just use a small piece of tape there or blutack small blob



yes it can also be a good solution, by the way, greetings to all who are in this thread


----------



## wolkegeist

pace88 said:


> yes it can also be a good solution, by the way, greetings to all who are in this thread


I completely remove the third tube, fill it with UV resin and then varnish. Sound much better. More bass, no more harsh treb, and now I have smaller nozzle. Idk why I even installed the third tube in the first place. Now only need better cable.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

wolkegeist said:


> I completely remove the third tube, fill it with UV resin and then varnish. Sound much better. More bass, no more harsh treb, and now I have smaller nozzle. Idk why I even installed the third tube in the first place. Now only need better cable.


cables dont effect sound

Get a decent built cable and Soneeter's bard's headspace and you are set


----------



## SupremusDoofus

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Soneeter's bard's headspace and you are set


Is that a crossfeed of some sort?


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jul 24, 2019)

SupremusDoofus said:


> Is that a crossfeed of some sort?


Sort of, but has impedance eq filter to compensate for crossfeed it has

It works flawlessly and kinda push sound outwards. Nice experience overall

Well design iem kinda sounds like very good open back headphones with headspace





HODVTEC-31618 + zobel + 200ohm(0.5% to 1% tolerance)
Yellow dampers x 2
2mm ID(10mm length)
Damper near spout
Damper at 3/4 of tube

Cz= 8uF
Rz= 31ohms

Both vents covered




Knowles ED29689 + 100ohm resistor(1% max tolerance)
Green damper
2mm ID(8mm length)
Green damper at 6mm



This things sound fabulous.
HODVTEC with zobel and high resistor with vent closed makes it super fast. So two yellow dampers dont slow down it enough.

And ED29689 kinda works like ER4s.
Soundstage is good and mids and treble are shining point


----------



## rr12267

dhruvmeena96 said:


> cables dont effect sound
> 
> Get a decent built cable and Soneeter's bard's headspace and you are set



Been a lurker here for awhile and I don’t want to start a debate on if a cable does or does not effect sound. I’m not an EE and don’t claim to be and I don’t mean any disrespect when asking this question as you dream more about this than I know and that is for certain. 

But, you knew this was coming 

I see from your diagrams and designs that you use resistors to tune the sound signature. In its simplistic form isn’t a cable a resistor thus due to the cables electrical properties can effect the sound signature?

Just asking the question here as this would be a learning moment for me.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

rr12267 said:


> Been a lurker here for awhile and I don’t want to start a debate on if a cable does or does not effect sound. I’m not an EE and don’t claim to be and I don’t mean any disrespect when asking this question as you dream more about this than I know and that is for certain.
> 
> But, you knew this was coming
> 
> ...


The thing is, cable value are so negligible that, even if it affects the SQ, it is not heard by our ears. Our ears have a limit and so is brain

And if you wanna debate on cable
OFC and OCC copper have 2% of difference and the difference if calculated in decimal score, is so negligible that anybody would start laughing

Electrically and signal science point of view, cable has least effect.

The only positive effects are
1. Look and feel
2. Braiding to cancel any sort of inductance happening
3. More cable on braid means more parallel wire, which effect the resistance.
4. Better isolation of channels in hi fi cable(crosstalk), due to higher quality(only for balanced cables)

If you want to have signature change, that won't happen. Everything is going inside the brain bro


Yah, I forgot

Better microphonics as you up the prices as concept of litz cable comes into play. They are able to pack more cores of cable inside single one which helps in reducing bulkyness while going parallel internally.

I know what I am talking in cables. But the manufacturing cost and the hype just makes a false advertisements.

Sony EX1000 cable cost 99% and is 7N OCC copper which sound as good as Plusssounds tri copper

The best cable for me is Penon Draco, as I like looks and feel and given advantages.. But shelling tonne on a piece of wire is something I cannot do(penon draco was gifted to me)


There has been long debate, and we strive for difference that makes sense and not on materialistic approach of having being and shing. That's a rule a engineer has to follow, like doctors oath on protecting patient, we oath on improving technology and make it affordable

See Ferrari debut SF90 which outclasses Ferrari LA Ferrari at less that 1/2 cost.

This is what I do. I dont want my friends to shell out cash for that pseudo 10% improvement.

And If you have flat impedance and phase, cable effects are 0 then. And we have been playing here with flat impedance for a nice period of time.


Well, it is a good curiosity... Hope this answer your question well

Thankyou


----------



## wolkegeist (Jul 24, 2019)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> The thing is, cable value are so negligible that, even if it affects the SQ, it is not heard by our ears. Our ears have a limit and so is brain
> 
> And if you wanna debate on cable
> OFC and OCC copper have 2% of difference and the difference if calculated in decimal score, is so negligible that anybody would start laughing
> ...


I tried some high-end cable from my friends and yes they do affect the sound a little bit, a bit more detail. But yeah I don’t dig that 1000$+ plus cable thing too. My go to cable are always Oyaide HPC-26p, because it’s like a mini coaxial cable with 1 core and 1 sleeve. Pretty neat looking cable and sound decent. Only 8-10$ per meter, which has 2 wires already. I order them straight from Oyaide website and have a friend of mine in Japan ship it to Vietnam for me. Here’re a photo of mine.


----------



## eunice (Jul 24, 2019)

rr12267 said:


> I see from your diagrams and designs that you use resistors to tune the sound signature. In its simplistic form isn’t a cable a resistor thus due to the cables electrical properties can effect the sound signature?



Short answer for tuning sound signature via resistor:

- Multi driver setup: Having one driver at 100 Ohms and another driver at 0 Ohms changes the relative SPL between both drivers
- Single driver setup: Having a resistor changes the impedance curve. Assuming your driver has an impedance of 50 Ohms for highs and 10 Ohms for lows and your amp is a theoretically perfect amp with output impedance of 0 Ohms (does not exist in reality, of course). Then highs and lows are exactly the same volume. If you add a 50 Ohm resistor in series you increase the output impedance of the amp by 50 Ohms. Now the highs are at 50 % volume (voltage divider with two 50 Ohm resistors) and lows are at ~80% (voltage divider with 50 Ohms and 10 Ohms in series). 

In this theoretical example the highs are attenuated, just by adding a resistor.

And if someone in this thread tells you "get a decent cable", we are generally talking about cables with low resistance, low capacitance, low inductance, little microphonics and proper connectors which are available for $10 - $20. The "anything less than $1000 and 200+ hours of burn in is not worth your money" folks are welcome here too though. No judgement


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jul 24, 2019)

eunice said:


> Short answer for tuning sound signature via resistor:
> 
> - Multi driver setup: Having one driver at 100 Ohms and another driver at 0 Ohms changes the relative SPL between both drivers
> - Single driver setup: Having a resistor changes the impedance curve. Assuming your driver has an impedance of 50 Ohms for highs and 10 Ohms for lows and your amp is a theoretically perfect amp with output impedance of 0 Ohms (does not exist in reality, of course). Then highs and lows are exactly the same volume. If you add a 50 Ohm resistor in series you increase the output impedance of the amp by 50 Ohms. Now the highs are at 50 % volume (voltage divider with two 50 Ohm resistors) and lows are at ~80% (voltage divider with 50 Ohms and 10 Ohms in series).
> ...


For 1000$ worth of money and 200hrs of burn-in, I will add more drivers, more fine tune on harder tolerance and still save 500$ and 150hrs of mine. Hahahaha



rr12267 said:


> Been a lurker here for awhile and I don’t want to start a debate on if a cable does or does not effect sound. I’m not an EE and don’t claim to be and I don’t mean any disrespect when asking this question as you dream more about this than I know and that is for certain.
> 
> But, you knew this was coming
> 
> ...


About resistors
They are not like metals

First of all, let's take frenkel, shoctkey defects out of equation, all metals have pendulum style electric transfer, but not with resistors.

Resistor have error tolerances. It has to be kept minimum as it defines the real value error and real time error when working.

Then every resistor has its own tone. It may sound gimmicky for new engineers, but oldies have reason after years of simulation and rated tolerances.

Carbon resistor works on pressure shift release type of electric transfer, has high heat capacity but low dissipation, which makes them good for power line. Plus they are cheap. Due high heat capacity, they have higher rated hours, but low dissipation makes the error tolerances high, shifting the value of resistance to higher value as more powered is pumped.

Carbon film is optimised structure carbon resistor with slightly lower thermal capacity and way higher thermal dissipation, plus it starts behaving like metal type resistor. Its good for signal supply

Ceramics have very very high heat capacity and proper design leads to good dissipation, but are sometimes high on signal tolerances and Q factors(quality factors).

Tantalum's are famous and doesnt need introduceyes. They are jack of all good traits from above, master of none. And is cheaper and quickly worked upon.


God - tier

Precision Wire wound : these resistors are very low induction, super tight tolerances, highly isolated resistor, which, due to coil nature and some inductance, kinda silences the treble distortion in my experience(some kind of low pass not visible to naked eyes in FR. Impulse were effected when used in ER4 diy experiment, as it made impulse pulse die quickly leading to tighter sound. Heat are not an issue for metal type. Critical signal analysis purposes

Metal film : accurate, totally transparent and good tolerances. Signal analysis purposes

Metal foil : higher tolerances compared to film, higher transparency. Very critical full band signal analysis

Bulk metal foil/Z-foil/S-foil: not a big jump is tier, I rank it same as wirewound( they both sit on top for their purposes.)
They have very large heat capacity and dissipation, very tight tolerances and make signal pass as it is, just acting near to ideal resistor. It is toneless and people often call it dry and lifeless




Oyaide HP26p are not expensive tier and works amazing.


Oyaide right angle connector(20$)
MMCX metal shell connector(3$)
16x 5m Ohno cast silver cable for weave( I will have 16 usable cable) with cyro(200$ with another 50$)
Loose braid(straight down, round after split).

Everything cost 273$ for 3m cable(braid makes the length smaller)

And 16cable total, 8 cable per channel(4 parallel per polarity, which means compared to single cable setup, resistance is 1/2 due to added 4 parallel on another polarity)

So, OCC silver cyro with 1/2 resistance and inductance and then braid to kill inductance and then cyro to kill any capacitance due to micro defects.


Here is your expensive cable which has zero microphonics, everything top tier according to some audiophiles and is easy to make

But, in the end, is it worth the effort?

I can add 100$ worth of Sonion woofer and SWFK. That is the thing.


----------



## wolkegeist

@dhruvmeena96 also Oyaide 4N silver cable are fantastic analytical sounding, 5m for like 50$-ish, A friend of mine made one for about 60$, including connectors. Sounds like a 1000$+ cable lol. And another dude I know got some Nordost Heimdal from China (probably fake ones) for 50$/ 5m and it sound surprizingly good.


----------



## rr12267

@dhruvmeena96 and @eunice thank you for answering my question.  More knowledge in my tank. Thanks again.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jul 24, 2019)

If we put sonion bass driver like 38D1XJ007Mi/8a in internal series(Sonion drivers comes with tabs only and no predefined connection)

We get a effective inductance of 31.6mH, DCR of 50ohms, which leads to internal low pass. Then its accupass structure and internal damper, low passes it good enough.

A L-pad of 4.7ohms on series and parallel is needed to flatten impedance while lowering it, and lower sensitivity. Adjust series resistor for taste, this is reference design

And a yellow damper(near spout) and orange damper(in between tube)
Best subwoofer setup acting as full range electrically.



Now comes the Midrange section, properly mastered
33AJ007i(non vented)

Series arrangement here, as we need high inductance value to make its peak smoother and make it natural low pass. Then we add a high pass to this setup, to limit itself to midrange.

And since we are not using zobel, we will add parallel resistor

10uF series capacitor
47ohms parallel resistor.

This will fix impedance peak and lower impedance for further usage ahead.
Use Yellow damper in between of tube



Best upper midrange and treble
Sonion 2389D(half coil parallel) + 2ohm resistor + 2.2uF capacitor.

Its way cleaner than single sonion 2389 and is more accurate to cross it up.

Brown damper in between the tube



Add 5ohm to whole circuit to make it decent resistant for proper loudness

Woofer tube lenght is 14mm(1.2mm ID)
Midrange tube lenght is 12mm(2mm ID)
Upper midrange and tweeter is 24mm(2mm ID)

@eunice @Jedrula1

Something of my simulation to freqPhase. Acoustically flat phase from tubing and linear phase in electric signal



True Harman kardon response

And you can add switch for bass tuning according to different resistor values. Increasing series resistor on L-pad tames the bass and lowers the volume(negligible but it does, as it increase circuit impedance.(recommended as it defines the taste of individual)

Add one more switch for treble tuning too, just increase or decrease the resistor and treble will increase or decrease. 2ohm is needed, extra can be added.(not recommended as treble is tuned perfectly....to response and ears).


No EST, its not needed.


Sonion 2389D is fastest BA on planet on half coil + 2ohm and a crossover.


----------



## wolkegeist

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Soneeter's bard's headspace


What is this thing and how is affaect the sound? Has someone ever open it to see what's inside, if so i'd very much like to DIY it if possible.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Best way to increase driver count

Method 1
TWFK23991(high impedance) and TWFK30017(low impedance

FK of both driver parallel = 20ohm DCR
WBFK of both driver parallel = 10ohm DCR



Just go on and on, and when you feel that impedance is too low, add resistor to compensate both FK and WBFK individually.

Keep 20ohm to FK and 10ohms to WBFK
Then make a crossover for FK and WBFK.







Method 2
Use TWFK 30017 and make a crossover as per Knowles guideline.

Take as many TWFK with crossover and slap them in parallel and compensate with resistor







Method 3
TWFK30017 x 4 drivers

FK x 4 (parallel)+ 20ohms (19ohms for exact)
WBFK x 4(parallel) + 10ohms(9ohms for exact)





Method 4
DWFK-31785 x 4 parallel + 20ohm 
This method easily increase drive count.



All these method easily increase driver count for driver wars. Best method is TWFK23991 and TWFK 30017.

It is because in 2x23991 and 2x30017 (4driver set, 8 drivers per side), with 10ohms on FK parallel and 5 ohms on WBFK parallel, we get 4 mids, 4 treble and flatter yet controlled impedance(not too low).

@piotrus-g SCARY (2xCI and TWFK) but with 10drivers(8 from 4 TWFK and 2xCI) and some crossover tweaks.

Let's see what happens


----------



## SupremusDoofus

From where can we source sonion drivers from? I know taobao has them but taobao is all Chinese and google translate isnt helping very much. Besides the prices shown on taobao, is it just for one unit or for a pair like how soundlink sells them?


----------



## eunice (Jul 25, 2019)

Soundlink has the  Sonion 33AJ007i/9
https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/1D1Wksg
Idk about the rest. You could check https://colsanmicro.com/


----------



## piotrus-g

dhruvmeena96 said:


> The thing is, cable value are so negligible that, even if it affects the SQ, it is not heard by our ears. Our ears have a limit and so is brain
> 
> And if you wanna debate on cable
> OFC and OCC copper have 2% of difference and the difference if calculated in decimal score, is so negligible that anybody would start laughing
> ...


Unfortunately you are not entirely right. 
I was big cable skeptic until I heard FIBAE1 with higher end cable few years ago. That changed my perspective a bit, later on we found out what is happening and it was all confirmed with measurements. 
Basically the biggest difference a good cable makes is in crosstalk, and it will play big role in stuff like amount of bass the IEM can produce. Especially when you have flat and low impedance cross talk starts to play huge role. A 4 wire single-ended cable improves crosstalk by about 15dB (as far as I recall) compared to 3-wire single ended cable. A higher gouge pure copper 4-wire SE improved cross talk number by something close to 30dB. Then there are some matters that play smaller role but still do - like impedance of the cable. 

Since I think you have FIBAE1 - try it for yourself - listen to it with stock cable and then switch to OCC Copper with 26-24AWG wire.



eunice said:


> Soundlink has the  Sonion 33AJ007i/9
> https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/1D1Wksg
> Idk about the rest. You could check https://colsanmicro.com/


Colsan will no longer be Sonion distributor as of October 2019.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jul 25, 2019)

piotrus-g said:


> Unfortunately you are not entirely right.
> I was big cable skeptic until I heard FIBAE1 with higher end cable few years ago. That changed my perspective a bit, later on we found out what is happening and it was all confirmed with measurements.
> Basically the biggest difference a good cable makes is in crosstalk, and it will play big role in stuff like amount of bass the IEM can produce. Especially when you have flat and low impedance cross talk starts to play huge role. A 4 wire single-ended cable improves crosstalk by about 15dB (as far as I recall) compared to 3-wire single ended cable. A higher gouge pure copper 4-wire SE improved cross talk number by something close to 30dB. Then there are some matters that play smaller role but still do - like impedance of the cable.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your reply

I did mention what a cable improves.
And I mentioned crosstalk.

I don't think it changes the signature as people describe.
And I think channel crosstalk improves more in balanced topology rather than single ended....but I might be wrong.

Single ended or single ground are more dependent on amp crosstalk.

I can imagine why 4 cable single ended can improve crosstalks.

The channels are mostly isolated in cable, cancelling the EMF or the thumb ruled rotatory magnetic field. This leads better result than three cable design as the ground signal is often very different (L+R ) which leads to occurrence of issue rather than solving it. This causes the 15dB of crosstalk elimination.

On my simulation, it shows that single ended 3 cable actually adds crosstalk, while 4 cable fixes magnetic influence on other channel. On isolated field, the difference from isolated cable design to 4 cable(very bad, cheap metal) design leads microphonicsprovement on crosstalk whereas 3 cable(very bad metal) design leads to 6dB of added crosstalk.

The difference is 10dB. Improve material to economical standards and increase cable count and you will get 15dB from cheapo metal.

Its all about cable topology.

Litz configuration effect the total packaging plus microphonics. Due to its structure, they are more rigid and more immune to microphonics. These structure, if used properly can eliminate crosstalk issues too.


But, what we talked was signature change or overall change in sound.



But expensive cables with snake oil in it(Dita) and cyro silver is pointless.



I know the bad crosstalk from bad cable in RAB-p (relatively flat impedance)

Crosstalk just creeps up in bad cable(I have some old generation mmcx cable, the old cheap cable for 3$)

But I think most of normal cables are OK.

Well FIBAE 1 is even more flat than the RAB-p, so the issue might be even more then.






Targeting Area 51 for sonion drivers then....who all are in


----------



## piotrus-g

You did mention crosstalk but your first sentence in the post is


dhruvmeena96 said:


> The thing is, cable value are so negligible that, even if it affects the SQ, it is not heard by our ears. Our ears have a limit and so is brain


and it's not true, the cross talk impacts bass to such an extent that you can hear (and measure) the roll-off with bad cable compared to higher end cable


----------



## dhruvmeena96

piotrus-g said:


> You did mention crosstalk but your first sentence in the post is
> 
> and it's not true, the cross talk impacts bass to such an extent that you can hear (and measure) the roll-off with bad cable compared to higher end cable


Sorry for mistake....
Well you are right


----------



## wolkegeist

@dhruvmeena96 

I find the MASM 3 a bit lack of bass, should I add 1 more bass driver to the design? If so I think i need to move them into new shells.

I also like the MASM7 design tho, BS6+RAB. Which one do you think I should go for? I think I’ll order premade shells from taobao and redo the nozzle so it could fit more tubes.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jul 27, 2019)

wolkegeist said:


> @dhruvmeena96
> 
> I find the MASM 3 a bit lack of bass, should I add 1 more bass driver to the design? If so I think i need to move them into new shells.
> 
> I also like the MASM7 design tho, BS6+RAB. Which one do you think I should go for? I think I’ll order premade shells from taobao and redo the nozzle so it could fit more tubes.


MASM 3 ENHANCED bass

Knowles HE instead of GQ
Same tubing lenght(shared between ED and CI)
Brown near spout, white in center

RAB32033
Same tube
No damper



MASM 7

Bellsing 6
Using 3mm ID, you stretch and create a adapter around the three bores. Then you take 2mm ID/3mm OD tube and insert inside the 3mm ID tube.

Same lenght as orignal MASM GQ
Damper
Green near spout
White in center


Same goes with RAB32033

Either make the zobel of two discrete( better error control due to parallel) or combine the zobel of these two. BS6 + zobel and RAB + zobel.

How is the bass lacking, you mean the subbass right.
Well on FR, the bass extension is fine. Issue is very tight decay and small impulse response making it's bass too fast.
I was thinking of adding bass driver also

Knowles HODTEC 31268
Zobel(1.428uF and 140ohms)
L-pad(4.7ohms series and 4.7ohms parallel)
18mm lenght tubing
1mm ID

Yellow damper near spout
Yellow damper in center of tube



For tweeter
SWFK-32255(shared with RAB tube)
1uF capacitor




See, you can modify the design any way you like.

Just make sure that all drivers except for tweeters must be full range as that is the trick behind the cohesiveness.
But I think, MASM 3 bass is more than enough if you listen to bassy tracks


----------



## wolkegeist (Jul 27, 2019)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> MASM 3 ENHANCED bass
> 
> Knowles HE instead of GQ
> Same tubing lenght(shared between ED and CI)
> ...


Yeah it’s lacking in sub-bass. I can’t hear bass guitar at all, or it sound very fainted.
I’m thinking about dual RAF + GQ, and save the RAB for BS6 later. The shell I’m using is really tight tho, I don’t think I can fit HODVTEC, but if I remake the zobel with smaller components (I use big metal film resistors here, will switch to SMD ones) I can fit dual RAF in. I found the old design on this thread claimed that dual RAF has dynamic level bass.
RAF in series, 22Ohm in series, zobel 41Ohm, 4.7 uF


----------



## dhruvmeena96

wolkegeist said:


> Yeah it’s lacking in sub-bass. I can’t hear bass guitar at all, or it sound very fainted.
> I’m thinking about dual RAF + GQ, and save the RAB for BS6 later. The shell I’m using is really tight tho, I don’t think I can fit HODVTEC, but if I remake the zobel with smaller components (I use big metal film resistors here, will switch to SMD ones) I can fit dual RAF in. I found the old design on this thread claimed that dual RAF has dynamic level bass.
> RAF in series, 22Ohm in series, zobel 41Ohm, 4.7 uF


On dual RAF series, you might not get the treble of single RAF zobel. Done and tried. The bass increases due to increase in inductance which may lead to treble limiting .

First of all, I mentioned a HODTEC and not HODVTEC. But if space is your concern

Go for BK or CI. I prefer BK as it is more agile and will suit MASM 3 signature.

BK-21610 -> 30ohm resistor -> L-pad (4.7 parallel and 4.7ohm series)

Yellow damper x 2 (near spout and at center)

Small ID tube like 1mm(18mm length)


----------



## wolkegeist

dhruvmeena96 said:


> On dual RAF series, you might not get the treble of single RAF zobel. Done and tried. The bass increases due to increase in inductance which may lead to treble limiting .
> 
> First of all, I mentioned a HODTEC and not HODVTEC. But if space is your concern
> 
> ...


How about CI tho, I see that they are more available than BK. I can’t find them on taobao.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

wolkegeist said:


> How about CI tho, I see that they are more available than BK. I can’t find them on taobao.


OK, then go with

[CI-22955 -> 26ohm resistor (series) ]-> L-pad(4.7ohm both parallel and series)

We need a CI to be 48ohm DCR to 50ohm DCR to apply L-pad. So we added CI with 26ohm resistor. 30ohms and others are fine till the desired DCR is between 42ohms to 55ohms. Ideal is 48ohms

Twin yellow stacked near the spout(the smaller Diameter yellow damper)

18mm length, 1mm ID.
Smaller ID, the better low pass


----------



## Ivan TT

Putting my dual RAB’s to a good use...


----------



## eunice

Are these inair tips? What RAB, what zobel?


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jul 28, 2019)

Ivan TT said:


> Putting my dual RAB’s to a good use...


Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaammmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Amazing channel mixer you have



eunice said:


> Are these inair tips? What RAB, what zobel?


Zobel might be near ~ 2.3uF and 82.5ohms
Those tips looks like foam tips



@Ivan TT
I tried dual RAB32033 series, and I have to say the bass was too much for my taste and it never felt like a BA sound(even though it never got muddied up). RAF and RAB32257 might be slightly less bassy, but this RAB32033 became a overall monster in bass, even though it had nice mids and good treble(smooth AF treble, cannot go wrong with any person)

The bass was so much that I have to disassemble it.

I am using RAB32063(non vented) in series and it works fine, with amazing bass linearity and good amount of punch and speed and slightly more airy treble.

Best part is high impedance of 44ohms which leads to way less Hiss and good amplifier scaling. Parallel dont scale well if not used with resistor. Series speaker kinda scales pretty well


----------



## Ivan TT

eunice said:


> Are these inair tips? What RAB, what zobel?


https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32832429128.html
32257 in series, green filter, 56Ohm/2.2uF
I don't think I'm getting full 26dB attenuation, maybe about 18dB but that's good enough for me.
32257 in series interfaces a bit better with usually hi-Z  HP outputs mixing consoles have and after all IEM's were initially designed for live sound monitoring, so why not?


----------



## wolkegeist

@dhruvmeena96 quick question, how do you calculate value for zobel circuit? I wanna use E25ST002, the high impedance one but I see that it has 2 peaks at 3500H and 5500Hz, also a big dip at 8500Hz.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

eunice said:


> Are these inair tips? What RAB, what zobel?





wolkegeist said:


> @dhruvmeena96 quick question, how do you calculate value for zobel circuit? I wanna use E25ST002, the high impedance one but I see that it has 2 peaks at 3500H and 5500Hz, also a big dip at 8500Hz.


Get the inductance value of driver
Get the resistance at specific inductive frequency

And use a zobel calculator available online
Hard way is to get impedance graph and do hit and trail with capacitor first(so the impedance change cover the resonant peak) and then use a resistor to flatten everything down




Ivan TT said:


> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32832429128.html
> 32257 in series, green filter, 56Ohm/2.2uF
> I don't think I'm getting full 26dB attenuation, maybe about 18dB but that's good enough for me.
> 32257 in series interfaces a bit better with usually hi-Z  HP outputs mixing consoles have and after all IEM's were initially designed for live sound monitoring, so why not?


Aint you over damping the mid and treble with lower resistor value.

Since inductance at 500Hz is 15.6mH and impedance at 500Hz is 66ohms.

I think you took the 44ohm DCR. That will be too heavy treble damping

Well it may be nice for you(I dont know, I have to try 56ohms)


----------



## tomekk

@wolkegeist  If you use a zobel to equalize the impedance for the whole project, it is best to use only one, and possibly turn up the sound by shortening the tubes, or correct the zobel with a resistor. Adding 2nd zobel (It summing up) to the tweeter will erase the treble and mute the transparency. If you want to align the impedance graph at the top, check out the reverse phase on the tweeter, or use a second order crossover on the tweeter relative to the mid if you have one.


----------



## wolkegeist

tomekk said:


> @wolkegeist  If you use a zobel to equalize the impedance for the whole project, it is best to use only one, and possibly turn up the sound by shortening the tubes, or correct the zobel with a resistor. Adding 2nd zobel (It summing up) to the tweeter will erase the treble and mute the transparency. If you want to align the impedance graph at the top, check out the reverse phase on the tweeter, or use a second order crossover on the tweeter relative to the mid if you have one.


I use zobel for the mid driver, so they probably gonna share zobel. Hmm maybe I’ll use first order crossover for the tweeter, gonna try 960nF first because I tried it with the low impedance version of this driver and succeedes


----------



## dhruvmeena96

tomekk said:


> @wolkegeist  If you use a zobel to equalize the impedance for the whole project, it is best to use only one, and possibly turn up the sound by shortening the tubes, or correct the zobel with a resistor. Adding 2nd zobel (It summing up) to the tweeter will erase the treble and mute the transparency. If you want to align the impedance graph at the top, check out the reverse phase on the tweeter, or use a second order crossover on the tweeter relative to the mid if you have one.





wolkegeist said:


> I use zobel for the mid driver, so they probably gonna share zobel. Hmm maybe I’ll use first order crossover for the tweeter, gonna try 960nF first because I tried it with the low impedance version of this driver and succeedes


Its better to make a zobel for a driver which you know you can work with or make a zobel of whole circuit.

First of all, Tweeter BA doesnt have inductance worth while and nobody crosses it at its resonant peak.

Electrostatics or electrets like Sonion EST is too small to get the electrostatic deviation, so it doesnt need a zobel.

And once you cross it, the resonance and rising response kinds flattens down as the driver has to work less


You can go for double zobel or summed zobel in MASM 7 or a very specific project where you need pin point crossing and there, you will need a good beefy tweeter.


----------



## wolkegeist

@dhruvmeena96 @tomekk @Ivan TT
I’m making a pair of Rab-p + tweeter for my friend. He’s on a budget so do you guys has any recommendation for single tweeter? Sadly Taobao ran out of supply for E25ST.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

wolkegeist said:


> @dhruvmeena96 @tomekk @Ivan TT
> I’m making a pair of Rab-p + tweeter for my friend. He’s on a budget so do you guys has any recommendation for single tweeter? Sadly Taobao ran out of supply for E25ST.


I dont think RAB-p needs a tweeter
You just need to reduce damper to white and add 10 to 20ohm of resistor to whole circuit.

RAB -> zobel -> resistor -> mmcx

And even if you want to add a tweeter, its not possible until or unless you create a 2 driver adapter, and then the RAB-p setup.


----------



## Makahl

Is the Bellsing RAB32277 much worse compared to the Knowles? 

I got the Knowles ones for my single BA project a year ago and I liked it a lot for some stuff but... yesterday I dropped the left piece on the floor and now the bass is distorting a lot. I've tried to replace tubes and replaced the damper but apparently, the armature got some damage so time to buy a new one.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jul 28, 2019)

Makahl said:


> Is the Bellsing RAB32277 much worse compared to the Knowles?
> 
> I got the Knowles ones for my single BA project a year ago and I liked it a lot for some stuff but... yesterday I dropped the left piece on the floor and now the bass is distorting a lot. I've tried to replace tubes and replaced the damper but apparently, the armature got some damage so time to buy a new one.


Hmmmm...

Bellsing RAB32257 is kinda a replacement.
The only issues i dont recommend it are:
1. More 3rd order distortion leading to more warmth but less vocal intelligibility.
2. More narrower impedance peak, which make itself apparent.
3. Less treble extension

Zobel is same, and it scales better than Knowles counterpart without zobel.

I recommend zobel followed by 10ohm resistor


But instead of Bellsing RAB, you have Knowles RAF which is cheaper than orignal Knowles RAB and has more in depth datasheet and sounds more enjoyable than both(if you are going for normal tubing and not RAB-p style horn)


----------



## HAMS

I just mod-ed my phonak pfe(1 BA sonion) with detachable connector. And am not sure if I wired it out of phase. Should the out of phase BA sound fuller(or boomier) with wider soundstage?


----------



## piotrus-g

HAMS said:


> I just mod-ed my phonak pfe(1 BA sonion) with detachable connector. And am not sure if I wired it out of phase. Should the out of phase BA sound fuller(or boomier) with wider soundstage?


Phonak has 10 Ohm resistor wired in series inside the original Y-splitter. You basically decreased your BA's impedance by half.
Also boominess might come from unsealed housing - since the BA is vented the volume behind the driver will affect the response, if you vent the shell you'll create an "infinite" amount of air behind the driver making the bass bloated.


----------



## HAMS

piotrus-g said:


> Phonak has 10 Ohm resistor wired in series inside the original Y-splitter. You basically decreased your BA's impedance by half.
> Also boominess might come from unsealed housing - since the BA is vented the volume behind the driver will affect the response, if you vent the shell you'll create an "infinite" amount of air behind the driver making the bass bloated.



I didn't know that the BA is vented lol. Now that I looked at the specsheet. I thought that the resistor on splitter was 27 ohm so I put that value.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

CI-22955 + 10ohm resistor
CI-30120 + 47ohm resistor



Both in parallel + 10 ohm resistor

Sounded nice

Straight shared 2mm ID(8mm tube)..
No damper


----------



## wolkegeist

Anyone has experiences with wbfk 30095 as super tweeter? How does it sound. I saw that it has decent frequency response chart.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

wolkegeist said:


> Anyone has experiences with wbfk 30095 as super tweeter? How does it sound. I saw that it has decent frequency response chart.


Sonion E25 is better single super tweeter

I have used WBFK30095 with 220nF cap to 100nF cap levels.

Going lower than 220nF doesnt make sense as the SPL, even though should increase, is neglibile at such a high frequency.

This is when you are doing true crossover with low and high pass.

But if you are going with overlapping crossover, then 100nF is okay, just slightly more shimmer.


----------



## wolkegeist

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Sonion E25 is better single super tweeter
> 
> I have used WBFK30095 with 220nF cap to 100nF cap levels.
> 
> ...


I want to tried it with dynamic drivers, because I found a source on Taobao for JVC wooden/diamond driver so I think why not give it a try tho. So I’ll may mount a single tweeter on the nozzle. These JVC wood are famous for warm bassy sound so I think it may need some treble tho. 

Btw I want to make Finale 3 but FED is out of stock, so are there any substitute for it. I’m thinking SWFK/TWFK.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

wolkegeist said:


> I want to tried it with dynamic drivers, because I found a source on Taobao for JVC wooden/diamond driver so I think why not give it a try tho. So I’ll may mount a single tweeter on the nozzle. These JVC wood are famous for warm bassy sound so I think it may need some treble tho.
> 
> Btw I want to make Finale 3 but FED is out of stock, so are there any substitute for it. I’m thinking SWFK/TWFK.


First of all, I am against using hybrid mechanism(you can try it, I hate it for a specific reason, even though I did make some good sets)

1. Dynamic driver moves air whereas BA work on change of pressure. These have very different inherent property

2. Second issue is crossover due to the above nature.

I recommend that you go with a good full range BA and use a the impedance incrementer and L-pad on dyna.ic driver so that it only assist the BA, rather than going full out on crossover. The (Incrementer + L-pad) on dynamic driver makes it a air moving assist driver which helps in increasing the dynamic scale of BA(BA lacks it)


But if you are using a JVC wood or diamond driver, Use a ED29689 with green damper fitted inside spout like @Slater did earlier in this thread.

Make them both go full range or

Use ED with center pass/tap and 470nF capacitor and without damper. As ED is big, it moves more air due to bigger pressure change equating to air movement plus low inductance on center pass which makes it one of the lovely tweeter.



Replacement for FED is ED with damper, but it kills the purpose of final(it should not have dampers on main driver)


----------



## wolkegeist

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Replacement for FED is ED with damper, but it kills the purpose of final(it should not have dampers on main driver)



Which ED do you recommend tho? I see that FED acts like a tweeter, right? So we need a tweeter here. Also any suggest with damper. I guess brown or grey is fit here.


----------



## vitaliy belo

Hello everyone, this is a fascinating thread! Some great ideas being discussed here! 

I just want to let you all know that 64 Audio is looking to hire talent for our R&D Department to work on product design. If you, or someone you know, might be interested, please email me directly at: vitaliy@64audio.com

-Best of luck to everyone!!
-Vitaliy B.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

wolkegeist said:


> Which ED do you recommend tho? I see that FED acts like a tweeter, right? So we need a tweeter here. Also any suggest with damper. I guess brown or grey is fit here.


When I mention ED, its ED29689 and FED30048 is not tweeter


----------



## wolkegeist

dhruvmeena96 said:


> When I mention ED, its ED29689 and FED30048 is not tweeter


Oops, my bad. I thought ED29689 is for the hybrid mechanism only.


----------



## wolkegeist

@dhruvmeena96 can you talk more about incrementer circuit, I google it but it’s very complicated ones, and what does 2-bit 4-bit and 16-bit means?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

wolkegeist said:


> @dhruvmeena96 can you talk more about incrementer circuit, I google it but it’s very complicated ones, and what does 2-bit 4-bit and 16-bit means?


Its not the digital incrementer. It means just adding resistance to driver

Driver -> resistor (impedance incrementer) -> L-pad.

This limits the Xmas of dynamic driver and make it move less air and act more like BA but with very low dB. This assist High dB BA like TWFK or something else.



But if you are going ED29689 route. You dont need to add all this thing to dynamic driver. You just need 2 way crossover with ED 29689 being center tap and 1uF high passed 




But if you want to go over the pro level, Band stop the dynamic driver from 300Hz to 8kHz and Band pass normal ED 29689( normal wiring, added impedance to match dynamic driver impedance) on same limit(300Hz to 8kHz).

There are many ways to do the setup


----------



## wolkegeist

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Its not the digital incrementer. It means just adding resistance to driver
> 
> Driver -> resistor (impedance incrementer) -> L-pad.
> 
> ...


Oh I see. I’ll go with 2 ways crossover design as I think it’s easier to calculate. And what do you mean by center tap? Like the BA is in the center of the dynamic driver?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

wolkegeist said:


> Oh I see. I’ll go with 2 ways crossover design as I think it’s easier to calculate. And what do you mean by center tap? Like the BA is in the center of the dynamic driver?


If you see the ED29689 from terminal side, you will see three terminals. CenterTap is the terminal in center. This makes the inductance drops to half and let the driver behave more like a tweeter.

If you do a center pass and positive terminal, then center pass is negative and if center pass and negative terminal, then center pass is positive.

Center pass just replaces the empty terminal when soldering wire.

Lemme explain simply.

Center and negative have wires -> center tap behaves like positive

Center and positive have wires -> center tap behaves like negative.



This may help you in keeping phase in check.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Aug 3, 2019)

vitaliy belo said:


> Hello everyone, this is a fascinating thread! Some great ideas being discussed here!
> 
> I just want to let you all know that 64 Audio is looking to hire talent for our R&D Department to work on product design. If you, or someone you know, might be interested, please email me directly at: vitaliy@64audio.com
> 
> ...


Already mailed you sir
Let's see


----------



## dhruvmeena96

@wolkegeist 
Take the KZ 10mm dynamic or 8mm Dynamic with the fancy coloured spout. Make sure it is 32 ohm and add 20ohm to it. You need dynamic driver to be somewhat near 50 ohms.

Tubing is 1mm ID(10mm length)

Damper is yellow damper at 7mm



Use a ED29689 with series 44uF capacitor (normal terminal) and followed by series 10ohm resistor.

Tubing is 8mm(1.2mm ID) and damper is green at 6mm.


----------



## wolkegeist

dhruvmeena96 said:


> @wolkegeist
> Take the KZ 10mm dynamic or 8mm Dynamic with the fancy coloured spout. Make sure it is 32 ohm and add 20ohm to it. You need dynamic driver to be somewhat near 50 ohms.
> 
> Tubing is 1mm ID(10mm length)
> ...


Oh I still have the 10mm driver salvaged from ZSN and the 6mm driver from old ZS3, I think both of them are 32ohm but I’ll measure their impedance again just to be sure. Because I’ll be moving MASM to a new bigger shell for bigger components and more drivers, so I’ll have the ZSN shell to experiment with this design. Thanks for the tip Drhuv, I’ll share the result when I’m finish.  The drivers has just arrived.

Btw I found my MASM has higher SPL at mid frequencies when the player is in low volume, which means bass and treb has lower dB level than mid when in low volume, but sounds ok in higher volume. And high mid is lacking. I think it’s because I use 1mm ID tube all the way in for RAB. I will fix it to RAB-p design in when I move to the new shell.


----------



## tomekk

Hello @vitaliy belo, it's good to see you here. Write something about your first IEMs as you started, which were made by your hands. This may be interesting.


----------



## pace88

tomekk said:


> Hello @vitaliy belo, it's good to see you here. Write something about your first IEMs as you started, which were made by your hands. This may be interesting.


You teased her very sweet


----------



## dhruvmeena96

wolkegeist said:


> Oh I still have the 10mm driver salvaged from ZSN and the 6mm driver from old ZS3, I think both of them are 32ohm but I’ll measure their impedance again just to be sure. Because I’ll be moving MASM to a new bigger shell for bigger components and more drivers, so I’ll have the ZSN shell to experiment with this design. Thanks for the tip Drhuv, I’ll share the result when I’m finish.  The drivers has just arrived.
> 
> Btw I found my MASM has higher SPL at mid frequencies when the player is in low volume, which means bass and treb has lower dB level than mid when in low volume, but sounds ok in higher volume. And high mid is lacking. I think it’s because I use 1mm ID tube all the way in for RAB. I will fix it to RAB-p design in when I move to the new shell.


1mm ID leads to low treble and upper mids.

MASM 3 is all about mids and treble with complimentary Bass. To be exact, its about the hit or initial impulse rather than decay and falling impulse


----------



## Nebula Ears

eunice said:


> This is Bellsing 6 + Zobeled just soldered. Two tantalum caps in series with opposite polarity and two resistors to achieve the desired resistance.
> 
> Sorry for bad quality, it's what I have right now.



Hi Eunice,

thank you and all the others for this great thread.
I started with building CIEMS recently. For the first build I salvaged drivers and filters from old and broken UM1s.

For my second build I tried the Bellsing 6 with Zobel.

Without filters I don't really like the sound.

How do you filter your Bellsing 6+Z?

Do you use red filters in both tubes?

Thank you!


----------



## eunice

Welcome and glad you tried it. 

I use orange filter for bass and white filter for highs. I insert the filters after building the CIEM shell. 

It is definitively a very good sounding setup. I still think it’s the best overall recipe on this thread. Although there are several recipes beating the BS6+Z in certain areas, it’s still so versatile it is in my opinion the best build.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

eunice said:


> Welcome and glad you tried it.
> 
> I use orange filter for bass and white filter for highs. I insert the filters after building the CIEM shell.
> 
> It is definitively a very good sounding setup. I still think it’s the best overall recipe on this thread. Although there are several recipes beating the BS6+Z in certain areas, it’s still so versatile it is in my opinion the best build.


BS6+Z is what you can get as an perfect all rounder.
It does bass, mids and treble and has strength in all part of spectrum. It just makes you appreciate sound.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Aug 4, 2019)

pace88 said:


> You teased her very sweet


Its him, if I remember

@wolkegeist

https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/b4RkPRcG

This is a dual dynamic driver with a capacitor at the back.

Use a RAB-32037(spoutless driver, something like FED30048 or ED30761) + zobel
Place the driver like Chi-Fi does inside the earphone(without tube, inside the shell nozzle).

Just make sure that placement of components are pin point

Both running at full range.

It will be 3 driver setup with good bass and treble response.


For reference, the arrangement of drivers would be like KZ - ES4(check the images)





For new build I was working on.

Woofer(runs on full range)
Knowles GR-31587 x 2 parallel(~20ohm DCR)
Zobel
Yellow damper x 2(stacked near the spout)
14mm tube(0.5mm to 1mm ID; but also needed 2mm ID to adapt two drivers first, then followed by smaller ID tube)

midrange(runs on full range)
Knowles GR-31570 and GR-31502 parallel.(~26 ohm DCR)
Zobel(Parallel Resistance and parallel inductance formula is same, pls calculate the new impedance and inductance)
Brown damper at center
12mm tube(1.2mm ID; same as above)


Tweeter(crossed)
SWFK-31736
Grey damper at center
Adjust capacitor on the fly as per your need
1uF is what I use
Tube is 24mm(2mm ID)

10 driver, easily adjustable due to small size of each and every driver used. 3 bore


----------



## pace88

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Its him, if I remember
> 
> @wolkegeist
> 
> ...



hey dhruv, can you give me an initial reference for zobel knowles base SR6438


----------



## dhruvmeena96

pace88 said:


> hey dhruv, can you give me an initial reference for zobel knowles base SR6438


The paper on this driver doesnt have inductance listing. I will have to buy it and create a zobel from measurement, since I dont have it.

Ask a Knowles Rep to get you the inductance@500Hz value, so a zobel can be build


----------



## Nebula Ears

eunice said:


> Welcome and glad you tried it.
> 
> I use orange filter for bass and white filter for highs. I insert the filters after building the CIEM shell.
> 
> It is definitively a very good sounding setup. I still think it’s the best overall recipe on this thread. Although there are several recipes beating the BS6+Z in certain areas, it’s still so versatile it is in my opinion the best build.



Thank you! ( And @IvanTT and @dhruvmeena96)

To change the filters are building the CIEM you need to drill two bores for 2mm ID/ 3mm OD tubes into your shells?!

So far I was happy to be able to drill two 2 mm bores into my shells. I broke one shell trying to drill one 3mm hole into it.

How do you drill the 3 mm holes?

Thank you!


----------



## pace88

Nebula Ears said:


> Thank you! ( And @IvanTT and @dhruvmeena96)
> 
> To change the filters are building the CIEM you need to drill two bores for 2mm ID/ 3mm OD tubes into your shells?!
> 
> ...


You can use a mini drill, and a 3mm drill bit fren


----------



## pace88 (Aug 4, 2019)

Nebula Ears said:


> Thank you! ( And @IvanTT and @dhruvmeena96)
> 
> To change the filters are building the CIEM you need to drill two bores for 2mm ID/ 3mm OD tubes into your shells?!
> 
> ...


You can also make a large hole, which ensures that a diameter of 3mm x 2 can enter and override the canal space using resin again


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Nebula Ears said:


> Thank you! ( And @IvanTT and @dhruvmeena96)
> 
> To change the filters are building the CIEM you need to drill two bores for 2mm ID/ 3mm OD tubes into your shells?!
> 
> ...


Send regards to @eunice too.
Hahaha lol

Well


@pace88 that's some thicc tubes


----------



## HAMS

Still waiting ED29689 and parts for my diy etymotic. Meanwhile, curious noob question, what adding capacitor do to BA? I hear that you can turn er4p/s to er4b by adding resistor and capacitor.


----------



## eunice (Aug 4, 2019)

HAMS said:


> Meanwhile, curious noob question, what adding capacitor do to BA? I hear that you can turn er4p/s to er4b by adding resistor and capacitor.


Search the interwebs for CR filter, RC filter or LCR filter, that will give you a good start.


----------



## eunice

Nebula Ears said:


> How do you drill the 3 mm holes?


I use a small diamond bore and move it in circles until the tubes fit in. To check that I taped together two short pieces of tube so I can quickly check whether my holes are large enough. After gluing the tubes I fill up the ear canal with resin (from the inside) and cure it. After that I insert two blunt syringe needles into the tubes (mine just have 2mm diameter) and then use some resin to create a nice looking tip.


Depending on the shell material and thicknes using a rose or a normal drill can easily shatter the shell. Pro3dure seems to be more brittle than Dreve Fotoplast, but I only use the diamond bore to take no risks.


----------



## tomekk

pace88 said:


> reference for zobel knowles base SR6438



You can start with 10uf+30ohm.


----------



## pace88

tomekk said:


> You can start with 10uf+30ohm.


ok @tomekk


----------



## dhruvmeena96

HAMS said:


> Still waiting ED29689 and parts for my diy etymotic. Meanwhile, curious noob question, what adding capacitor do to BA? I hear that you can turn er4p/s to er4b by adding resistor and capacitor.


The capacitor is for binaural compensation and is not needed for modern songs. And it seriously poops on the impedance and power distribution for ER4.

Working on Zobel for ED29689. 1mH nearby value for inductance, but I want to have pin point value so I dont screw up the phase and impedance with my compensated value.



tomekk said:


> You can start with 10uf+30ohm.


30ohm ain't ideal. To much heavy damping for SR. 

Start with 47 ohms and try hit and trails with capacitor. And you should have ARTA and impedance measurement tool(its somewhere in this thread, its diy).


----------



## dhruvmeena96

@eunice @Xymordos @Ivan TT @IvanNOON @Choy Wei De @tomekk @Rabid86 @Everyone


I am thinking of going tubeless....anybody in for that project. That might give some new info and some more educational material

That project would be very hard in itself as we have to measure drivers at different placement inside a shell.

I will try to take out some average values and some formulaes (trick to be exact) to get this type of setup always right inside every shell


----------



## eunice

dhruvmeena96 said:


> @eunice @Xymordos @Ivan TT @IvanNOON @Choy Wei De @tomekk @Rabid86 @Everyone
> 
> 
> I am thinking of going tubeless....anybody in for that project. That might give some new info and some more educational material
> ...



I am in. I recently bought a resin 3D printer to try this out. I am not afraid of math either, but I have yet to find good read to the basics of modeling/simulating IEMs. 

What would you suggest me to read to catch up on theory?


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Aug 4, 2019)

eunice said:


> I am in. I recently bought a resin 3D printer to try this out. I am not afraid of math either, but I have yet to find good read to the basics of modeling/simulating IEMs.
> 
> What would you suggest me to read to catch up on theory?


Room acoustics....go read the crap out of it.
Cavity and speaker inside cavity......go to the max level
Since BA inside shell is like fitting a big speaker inside a small room with one exit to open side.
We will suffer from room modes, resonance of shell material and we are going to deal with a lot more stuff here.

I heard Tia Fourté and the Noir. I was disgusted with Tia Fourté but liked Noir. Both have this hollowness due to aluminium shell, ring and weird suckout. Tia Fourté Noir was good as its suckout was compensated.(Tia Fourté measure normal, but this hollowness first sounds good, but then feel starts to feel weird. Its like viperaudio field surround with field strength to 1 and mid strength to 3 and some bass boost)

Something like HD800 to HD800S level of compensation.

I love my 64Audio U12T though(masterpiece, way better than U18t)

Plus BA are compression driver with spout being a phase plug/resonance adder etc. The moment BA fire in an open cavity, there is a sudden expansion of sound, decrease in pressure of low region, and angle of BA decides where the treble beam really strikes and where it ring and where it get out of coherency.

Well one thing I am damm spot on, I did a ratio of 1.166667:1:2 for tubing of woofer:mid:tweeter(where you can eliminate tweeter damper). This ratio will change to
2:1.66667:1 for woofer:mids:tweeter.

But where the spout fire, where the BA is placed, what is the structure of shell etc etc really matters.

So, all those who are going to do the project have to stick with a certain shell(go raid aliexpress and taobao and tell me which shell wins the poll for this experiment and I will order it).


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Aug 4, 2019)

Let's talk about mode

Take a Big BA in small shell(like CI in sealed KZ ZSA from nozzle and back)

This is educational purpose only and I am not considering expansion of compressed sound etc.

Just take a big speaker in small room.
This makes the 1st mode rise higher compared to large room. Let's take the 120Hz dip as 1st mode.
Second mode appears after 60Hz and so on. And the effect gets more pronounced in dips or peak as we go above the frequency.

Now we open the nozzle of the shell. A weird two sided phenomenon happens. High concentration of pressure wants to move out. This kinds balances out the situation of the opening is releasing 1/2 pressure outside. But then shell nozzle are cylindrical which adds its own sound.

Then, when we put inside the ear, weird things happen due closed structure. The peaks become even more weird and crazy. That's why I think 64audio went with Apex to compensate back to normal modes.

Now we placement of speaker. Tweeter is placed near the eardrum, so its not effected by spikiness caused by shell. fIR audio uses electrostatic which is spout, which has more directivity compared 64audio Tia tweeter which fire inside the cylinder but has advantage of more unrestricted sound flow. 64audio doesnt have the crazy 30dB dip likely to happen in theory because of placement of driver inside the shell(great respect to @vitaliy belo ) and if a dip appears, is compensated with integrated apex module, plus the way he crossed the IEM drivers.

Mids are also placed firing directly in the nozzle, just a little back, because mode effect is comparatively less.

Bass is what we have to decide.

And we seriously need High SPL bass


----------



## Nebula Ears

Thank you! @eunice


----------



## tomekk

HAMS said:


> Still waiting ED29689 and parts for my diy etymotic. Meanwhile, curious noob question, what adding capacitor do to BA? I hear that you can turn er4p/s to er4b by adding resistor and capacitor.





Spoiler: Spoiler


----------



## dhruvmeena96

@eunice



BS6Z(@Ivan TT and @eunice as author) : at 1:34, when the superstage and soundstage collapse, the BS6Z has clear distinction and doesn't let the Soundstage come anywhere. Its like a well controlled instrument. It knows when to stage and when to collapse inside the head. Second thing was the great f**king drums. The DTEC does the best drums. Nothing comes near. I mean, it just blows my brain off. The drum, decay and the stopping efficiency is unmatched in simple builds(like pro, MASM etc).


RAB-p: simply, the most controlled single driver after FIBAE 1(penon draco cable). It is gradual in shift of control like stage and intimacy. It may sound compressed compared to BS6Z, but it has its own single driver charm to it. It feels more coherent and the most tamed in control.

MASM3pro(MASM3 orignal is obsolete now, inspired from @Furco , created a series. ): Guitars and Vocals champ. Plucking of guitar is so much clear and feels like a veil taken of. Soundstage is crazy big, but the 1:34 soundstage collapse is sudden and is too aggressive in control.
Bass control is like handbrake, it just stops the bass superfast even though it is nicely extended and feels weird sometime. Soundstage to intimate and vice versa is too sudden and is really good for pinpointing the exact time but is not so great(taste may vary)


Final 2(the original Final series IEM, updated by @eunice damper config ): Take MASM 3, Tame its aggressive behavior on shifting of sound profile according to music, give it some warmth and increase details 1.5x( I mean + x0.5). Increase in detail is noticeable, the soundstage is slightly smaller but is more ambient and grand as midrange is dialed back.
Only con is the midrange Q factor is wide and kurtosis is small, which leads to somewhat compressed sound when super intimate things hit
Like this 






OK this the end of my first generation DIY.(this is where I learned how to make IEM)

Well, second generation also ended with 8 driver sonion build and 10 drivers recent Knowles build. Didn't name it. If you guys need names and config, I can share it..no probs...(this is where I learned how to cross IEM driver properly)


Third generation going to start


----------



## eunice

wolkegeist said:


> Btw I want to make Finale 3 but FED is out of stock, so are there any substitute for it. I’m thinking SWFK/TWFK.


I loved FED so much that I bought the entire stock from mouser... twice... I am sorry, but they should have more on 2nd September. Dont get why they order only 8.

The FED is what makes finale so special, so I am afraid there is no replacement.


----------



## Kulgrinda

eunice said:


> Welcome and glad you tried it.
> 
> I use orange filter for bass and white filter for highs. I insert the filters after building the CIEM shell.
> 
> It is definitively a very good sounding setup. I still think it’s the best overall recipe on this thread. Although there are several recipes beating the BS6+Z in certain areas, it’s still so versatile it is in my opinion the best build.


Are both tubes 2 mm ID 3mm OD? What length did you use? I also have this driver on the way, will be interesting to try it.


----------



## eunice (Aug 5, 2019)

Kulgrinda said:


> Are both tubes 2 mm ID 3mm OD? What length did you use? I also have this driver on the way, will be interesting to try it.



Yes I use 2mm ID 3mm OD. For sound only ID matters (as long as you fill up the ear canal, which you should do any ways)

Check this post for all the details:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/home-made-iems.430688/page-636#post-15051126


----------



## Kulgrinda

eunice said:


> Yes I use 2mm ID 3mm OD. For sound only ID matters (as long as you fill up the ear canal, which you should do any ways)
> 
> Check this post for all the details:
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/home-made-iems.430688/page-636#post-15051126


Thanks! 

By the way I think original MASM3 had both grey and green filters for GQ, not grey or green. It may have changed, I do not know, but I built it with two dampers.


----------



## eunice

I think it was green or grey, but I only built it with the grey damper. @dhruvmeena96 later said it should not be built with green damper.  

How did you like it with both dampers?


----------



## Kulgrinda

Well it was a learning curve so to say. When I built it I really liked it. So much actually I made a permanent pair of this setup. But then I tried ED+FED and it blew my mind. However when I tried GK+RAB32033 it sounded even better and more suitable for greater variety of music. I think I would enjoy ED+FED+CI since I liked GK. So now GQ+RAB is smoking in the corner  I bet BS6 will top them all, I will try it in upcoming weeks.


----------



## vitaliy belo (Aug 5, 2019)

tomekk said:


> Hello @vitaliy belo, it's good to see you here. Write something about your first IEMs as you started, which were made by your hands. This may be interesting.


Tom, the clear one was one of the first successful IEMs I built back in 2009. I basically took a TripleFi 10 and used the "guts" of it to make a custom fitted version. From there, I started to develop my own designs and that's how 1964 Ears (and now 64 Audio) was born)


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Aug 5, 2019)

eunice said:


> I think it was green or grey, but I only built it with the grey damper. @dhruvmeena96 later said it should not be built with green damper.
> 
> How did you like it with both dampers?


i have never said by or for the dampers.* it should be both dampers with green near spout and grey at center*. what i said is that for taste, you can use one of the following dampers.

Tried CI in a gut out shell of KZ ES4, without tubes. 8dB Dip shell mode at 160Hz on Sine Wave test, Hollow warm and sucked out sound with reverby bass(Which is also weak).

i know what o have to do now.
i will use 4 x spout less Knowles RAB 32037 driver in parallel + 20ohm resistance + zobel(including added impedance from 20ohm resistor in zobel, this reduces the impedance ratio swing ), make a round adapter and fit the quad parallel BA. The round adapter will make it look like a dynamic driver.

let me see, how to design it.

i want to make a BA setup to behave like brutal dynamic driver pressure and fit like a dynamic driver inside shell.



Kulgrinda said:


> Well it was a learning curve so to say. When I built it I really liked it. So much actually I made a permanent pair of this setup. But then I tried ED+FED and it blew my mind. However when I tried GK+RAB32033 it sounded even better and more suitable for greater variety of music. I think I would enjoy ED+FED+CI since I liked GK. So now GQ+RAB is smoking in the corner  I bet BS6 will top them all, I will try it in upcoming weeks.




BS6Z is god in this music. Nothing comes near this IEM, in this track and only track. The only thing which surpass it is 64audio U12T(which is way more expensive than DIY project). 64audio shows the more intimacy vocal and more bass extension, but BS6Z is not slouch in this song. Bass is actually faster ,gritty and more retro on the face while keeping up on mids with U12T. The U12T treble is what makes U12T surpass BS6Z by huge margin. The treble is just soars.


----------



## wolkegeist

I found this shell design, hope it'd help you guys.
https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?sp...tTB4jv&id=588786589304&ns=1&abbucket=9#detail


----------



## dhruvmeena96

wolkegeist said:


> I found this shell design, hope it'd help you guys.
> https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?sp...tTB4jv&id=588786589304&ns=1&abbucket=9#detail


Well, nobody can stop China 

LoL

Tia Fourté shell copy with a dynamic driver place instead of bass BA...hahahhahah
And some weird vent at back which is not relieving the Bass pressure
LoL

Nice one, thanks

I will try this.

This would be fun. I will try modifications etc to this 

This would be nice start


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Aug 5, 2019)

DTEC-30265
TWFK-30017

I have these two drivers in pair and want to experiment.

Neutral balanced sound is the aim here

Does anybody have a config for that

I kinda love this DTEC

And I kinda love the Toneking T4 which has the same specs

I want to build T4 on diy term and then improve it while adding dampers.


I think DTEC can also have zobel which can be a more add-on on the woofers and lower mids


----------



## DannyBouwhuis

dhruvmeena96 said:


> DTEC-30265
> TWFK-30017
> 
> I have these two drivers in pair and want to experiment.
> ...



Let me know how that works out, I've still got some fed's and Im thinking of pairing them with a zobeled dtec (speed is the goal here) and maybe a e25 as supertweeter but I dont think that's necessary  

Im curious about the fr of a dtec when zobeled, you already measured of simulated dhruv ?


----------



## wolkegeist (Aug 5, 2019)

I’ve just finish this pair of IEM for a friend. Once again, I’m so bad at shell making that I use the old shure shell, cut the nozzle because the damn thing is tini tiny, making a bigger hole and use the holder from another shell to fit the tubing, put in a ton of glue then cast UV resin on top to make it smooth. The design is RAB 32257+ TWFK 30017 each in 4mm of 1ID tube then joined into one big tube which is also a resonator, then RAB-p horn, grey filter. The sound is mid/treble focus with complimentary bass.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Aug 5, 2019)

DannyBouwhuis said:


> Let me know how that works out, I've still got some fed's and Im thinking of pairing them with a zobeled dtec (speed is the goal here) and maybe a e25 as supertweeter but I dont think that's necessary
> 
> Im curious about the fr of a dtec when zobeled, you already measured of simulated dhruv ?


It measures same, the impulse is shorter after zobel. This is when the driver is running on full range. 1kHz distortion seemed to be lowered by huge margin.


Pairing up an FED needs this driver to be crossed as low as it can and needs FED to crossed with it.




wolkegeist said:


> I’ve just finish this pair of IEM for a friend. Once again, I’m so bad at shell making that I use the old shure shell, cut the nozzle because the damn thing is tini tiny, making a bigger hole and use the holder from another shell to fit the tubing, put in a ton of glue then cast UV resin on top to make it smooth. The design is RAB 32257+ TWFK 30017 each in 4mm of 1ID tube then joined into one big tube which is also a resonator, then RAB-p horn, grey filter. The sound is mid/treble focus with complimentary bass.



Nice build. Looks like audiofly iem but better


----------



## wardy

Hey guys I am struggling a bit to find appropriate tubing for IEMS, am looking for some 2mm and 3mm tubing on aliexpress, I would love to know what your using so I dont waste any money and time trying to get the right stuff,
Cheers!


----------



## DannyBouwhuis (Aug 6, 2019)

wardy said:


> Hey guys I am struggling a bit to find appropriate tubing for IEMS, am looking for some 2mm and 3mm tubing on aliexpress, I would love to know what your using so I dont waste any money and time trying to get the right stuff,
> Cheers!



Soundlink, they stock 1.mm id 1,5mm, 2mm, 3mm and perhaps even more and it only cost arround 0,90€ per meter. I bought 2meters of each that's less than 10€ and I never have to worry about tubing again.


----------



## eunice

I would love to buy the Bellsing DTEC seperately, does anyone know where to buy?


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Aug 6, 2019)

@Jedrula1 and me had this weird experiment.




RAB front vent with 12mm Tube  is blue
RAB back vent with 57mm tube(small ID) is red




Back vent damped with red damper










This what we got....
LoL

We were able to tune the dipping in mid and High frequency.

And lemme tell you, the bass roll off is what we didn't wanted but it happened.

And it is not due to cancellation, but BA itself not able to sustain the bass in ripple cancellation and huge volume of air moving, cancelling, getting still and then pushed...lot of air fluid mechanics...

But nice thing is, we dont need to cross this and it gets to perfect sweet spot of rolling of. 150Hz.


Thanks to Jedrula for his support

Well Natural High pass

Its better


----------



## tomekk (Aug 6, 2019)

eunice said:


> I would love to buy the Bellsing DTEC seperately, does anyone know where to buy?



At Ali you can find the DTEC-31116 at a good price. Interesting thing, with the trick of reaming case (first you need to gently saw the edge) and then with the help of extraction with air filings you drill the case on the edge with a microdrill to make a vented version. A drill bit of about 0.5 mm is needed. Or more drastically, the tip of a scalpel. I don't recommend this way, but if someone wants a double woofer for $7, why not? I had charts somewhere. Maybe I'll find them.



vitaliy belo said:


> Tom, the clear one was one of the first successful IEMs I built back in 2009. I basically took a TripleFi 10 and used the "guts" of it to make a custom fitted version. From there, I started to develop my own designs and that's how 1964 Ears (and now 64 Audio) was born)



Wow, that's a great story!  @vitaliy belo  we give you an elite virtual "Sonion Guy" badge. It's available to people who use Sonion drivers.


----------



## eunice

tomekk said:


> At Ali you can find the DTEC-31116 at a good price. Interesting thing, with the trick of reaming case (first you need to gently saw the edge) and then with the help of extraction with air filings you drill the case on the edge with a microdrill to make a vented version. A drill bit of about 0.5 mm is needed. Or more drastically, the tip of a scalpel. I don't recommend this way, but if someone wants a double woofer for $7, why not? I had charts somewhere. Maybe I'll find them.



Thank you. I found the knowles DTEC, but since I love the BS6 bass so much I was looking specifically for the Bellsing DTEC.


----------



## wolkegeist

dhruvmeena96 said:


> @Jedrula1 and me had this weird experiment.
> 
> RAB front vent with 12mm Tube  is blue
> RAB back vent with 57mm tube(small ID) is red
> ...


Oh do you test and build this and rab-p based on speaker designs? I’m doing research on it, and now I understand why you make the RAB-p that way. That’s an entire new level for me.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Aug 7, 2019)

wolkegeist said:


> Oh do you test and build this and rab-p based on speaker designs? I’m doing research on it, and now I understand why you make the RAB-p that way. That’s an entire new level for me.


Yup, trying to do something different. Back wave scavenging technique and comb adjustment of back wave and front wave, so it flattens out the peak.





Idea 1
Make a naturally low passing and high passing tube design with tube design for effortless and natural stage field and flatter impedance.

Idea 2
I am thinking, that we can Janus Helmholtz resonator and a Closed top Organ resonator to this design to get the bass up back for single driver project. These many resonator idea stuck me as if I want to go single driver full range, I have to compensate over 30dB of bass at 10Hz(maximum limit of frequency threshold- boost value) and that would be possible by dual parallel resonator and a long shot resonator at same time. I want that bass to flat line extended as deep as possible. Then a RAB-p horn in the end to boost the overall treble value. 

Idea 3
One more of this driver unit, will go in the resonator of orignal driver for bass reinforcing(I have to calculate), so I get dual parallel, linear impedance and better mid and treble driver with Usable bass region


After zobel


Some nice changes to FR, 3kHz became smoother and elevated. Dip at 4.5kHz and peak at 5.5kHz is introduced due to a resonator and merger section of two tubes.

10kHz peak is shifted slightly higher to remove the 10kHz resonance for some ears.

Woofer low pass is also made recently.
Sonion subwoofer driver
A Shure se846 type of woofer labyrinth which is 66mm big with 0.5ID, to low pass the woofer naturally. @Jedrula1 will make it brief.


The issue while crossing these two driver is that the whole RAB works in invert phase(even though signal from driver is coming at same phase). So natural low pass kinda cancel the bass

So I want a circuit to reverse the phase rather than wiring woofer in reverse polarity. Just want to delay the speaker instead of making it move reverse.
This way, we can avoid reverse polarity hollow artifact.


Still, no dampers in straight auditory track. Like normal damping system. Driver - tube - damper - tube - ear system was eliminated completly.

Speaker tube system and back wave dampens the driver response itself, create a high pass without changing impedance and increase acoustically available air for the driver, which stabilises the peaks, reduce heat up pressure (red zone direct pressure) and increase soundstage.


Next thing would be tweeter. We would be using EST, but SWFK will also work.

EST will be flattened out in dips and peak and will fill the RAB-p treble roll of(even though this RAB-p rises in the end due super construction and reinforcement of HF frequency from back wave).






Above is damper
Bellow is labyrinth design.








The issue



If someone can solve this....











Woofer long tube adapter




Thanks to @Jedrula1


----------



## Jedrula1

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Yup, trying to do something different. Back wave scavenging technique and comb adjustment of back wave and front wave, so it flattens out the peak.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Long road to go, but still getting there. The acoustically highpassed RAB sounds great. The bass  phase issue will be fixed only acoustically to keep electrical phase perfectly clean. Target remains the same -  to keep no-damper design with acoustical lopass and highpass filters.


----------



## piotrus-g

Jedrula1 said:


> The bass  phase issue will be fixed only acoustically to keep electrical phase perfectly clean


How exactly are you planing to do that? 1m long tubing inside the IEM?


----------



## eunice

Guys, an acoustical high pass is a very usefull idea.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

piotrus-g said:


> How exactly are you planing to do that? 1m long tubing inside the IEM?


Magic bro....

Yup, a pretty long tubing 3D printed(see the cylindrical image with spiral inside it, that's the bass low pass. Now, we are fine tuning for phase issue.

If we increase bends(spiral or layered are best), and increase distance with less ID, we technically get low passed. Inspired by Shure SE846 low pass. And the best part is that Sonion driver is also an accu-pass. So, we don't have to go for 1m(lol, that's seriously ....can't even say overkill...lol)



eunice said:


> Guys, an acoustical high pass is a very usefull idea.


Yup, it is. It dampens artifacts, kinda increase soundstage and makes everything look nice(see graph.lol. I mean you have already seen it).


----------



## Jedrula1

piotrus-g said:


> How exactly are you planing to do that? 1m long tubing inside the IEM?


Probably 1m tubing is not necessary  This is how it looks like now. But it is no perfect yet. When it will be, we'll share everything. Two drivers, two acoustical filters(lo and high pass, cross over point around 180hz) , no dampers (roll of below 30hz due to bad seal):


----------



## piotrus-g

But you will be adding another driver to this design then?

I imagined you are trying to do something like a transmission line for IEM


----------



## Jedrula1

piotrus-g said:


> I imagined you are trying to do something like a transmission line for IEM



Well... kind of, but not exactly. 

There are few concepts:
First one was what we have started with. One driver design with bass enhancement using long back vent tube connected inside resonator to the spout tube. Surprisingly we realized, that we can use it also as high pass acoustical filter that controls mids. So it started a creative process. Second concept is to add second driver with lo pass damper less filter (long printed spirale) . So we get two-way setup without electrical filters and dampers.  Then - well, we'll se what it brings. We are thinking about electrostatic tweeter. The listening feelings are funnily positive.


----------



## piotrus-g

Interesting...
Powodzenia


----------



## Jedrula1

piotrus-g said:


> Powodzenia


Przyda się, dzięki


----------



## dhruvmeena96

piotrus-g said:


> Interesting...
> Powodzenia


dzięki


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Aug 7, 2019)

@eunice I think after project codename Big(this design going above), I think I should focus on this before jumping on Tubeless design.

Well, for someone left and not able to get the design

Woofer -> spiral damper(66mm long/0.5ID) or accu-pass [according to design demands] -> tube

Midrange-> back wave fixing the front wave peaks and also causing a natural high pass



@wolkegeist 
I have ordered the shell


----------



## wolkegeist (Aug 7, 2019)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> @eunice I think after project codename Big(this design going above), I think I should focus on this before jumping on Tubeless design.
> 
> Well, for someone left and not able to get the design
> 
> ...


They also have 3D printed Apex model (plastic, not metal like the 64 original ones) if you are interested. The shell is kinda too expensive for me now, so I'll stick with resin and cheapo shells. But it'll be great if you can 3D scan them and share the file with us!

I'm also working on my Poorman build, dual Belsing RAB32257, series with zobel and belsing TWFK 30017. All in Shure 846 shell (because they are sexy), and maybe I'll make a bigger nozzle out of it.

It's  because the pair I make for my friends using knowles RAB and TWFK is a success,I wanna try Belsing driver for a change, and they're also cheap.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

wolkegeist said:


> They also have 3D printed Apex model (plastic, not metal like the 64 original ones) if you are interested. The shell is kinda too expensive for me now, so I'll stick with resin and cheapo shells. But it'll be great if you can 3D scan them and share the file with us!
> 
> I'm also working on my Poorman build, dual Belsing RAB32257, series with zobel and belsing TWFK 30017. All in Shure 846 shell (because they are sexy), and maybe I'll make a bigger nozzle out of it.
> 
> It's  because the pair I make for my friends using knowles RAB and TWFK is a success,I wanna try Belsing driver for a change, and they're also cheap.


Well this is not a reply, I just used it to quote something which I am going to mention

And thanks @Ivan TT 

Dynamic driver bass feels like after a hit, there is a skid(or a decay which is smeared to next time decay), then a black area(with of without area).

BA dont have this skid feeling, the bass stops very quick.
The issue when discussed with my friend, he told me simply, decreasing surface area for radiation and increasing inductance doesn't really resolve bass for ears.

Dual RAB32033 series zobel solve both those issues, that's why the bass session is intense.

I am working on dual series zobel, with one driver at time lag to another to create hall like space and strong subbass presence


----------



## wolkegeist

@dhruvmeena96
I remake the MASM 3 to MASM-5, adding the CI with incrementor and L-pad as you suggested and the EST (with 940nF cap in series) sharing bore with RAB-p. I also use grey damper on RAB, Green damper at 3mm for GQ and double yellow damper for CI.
I find it a little bit dip on high mid, maybe it’s because of grey damper? Also bass is quite recessed, maybe I should reduce yellow damper to 1? Mid is also quite forward, should I add a resistor to RAB?


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Aug 9, 2019)

wolkegeist said:


> @dhruvmeena96
> I remake the MASM 3 to MASM-5, adding the CI with incrementor and L-pad as you suggested and the EST (with 940nF cap in series) sharing bore with RAB-p. I also use grey damper on RAB, Green damper at 3mm for GQ and double yellow damper for CI.
> I find it a little bit dip on high mid, maybe it’s because of grey damper? Also bass is quite recessed, maybe I should reduce yellow damper to 1? Mid is also quite forward, should I add a resistor to RAB?


There Was a MASM 5 with Bellsing 5 within it

but this also looks good

First of all, dot damp the RAB at all, let it play full(this will keep the)
double damp the GQ with green and grey
CI-22955 with L-pad, you can control bass amout by just reducing the series resistor part
double damper is to not let CI come in main mid region and warm it up
you can tune it by your preferences though

you can remove the l-pad and one yellow damper(keep both dampers, remove l-pad first) if you want the the warmth


nice shell too












Give me that shell and cable

Damm they look so nice


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Aug 9, 2019)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> There Was a MASM 5 with Bellsing 5 within it. No there is no MASM 5 sorry
> 
> Update
> 
> ...



Sorry it would be MASM6 with BS5

There is no MASM5

Sorry, I was tired and brain stopped responding at that time
Hahahhaa


----------



## dhruvmeena96

This is how you read impulse response

And this is what we need for tubeless design.


----------



## wolkegeist

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Sorry it would be MASM6 with BS5
> 
> There is no MASM5
> 
> ...


Haha so maybe MASM 3 super galaxy lol. Btw I realized I plug the cable at the wrong polarity, but still I’ll remove grey damper of rab and add it in GQ, CI bass is quite nice now, will remove L-pad anyway for extra oomph.

Cable is Oyaide HPC-23awg, copper conduter, silver shield. They also have all copper cable but the sleeve is either black or red. I bought it straight from Japan, 8-9$ per meter, this cable I made is like ~1.3m. Sounds ****ing good for the price tho. Ali cable is no match.

Shell is cheap 3D printed Taobao shell, I’ll paint it with lacquer after I retune it. Hope it wouldn’t take long tho.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

wolkegeist said:


> Haha so maybe MASM 3 super galaxy lol. Btw I realized I plug the cable at the wrong polarity, but still I’ll remove grey damper of rab and add it in GQ, CI bass is quite nice now, will remove L-pad anyway for extra oomph.
> 
> Cable is Oyaide HPC-23awg, copper conduter, silver shield. They also have all copper cable but the sleeve is either black or red. I bought it straight from Japan, 8-9$ per meter, this cable I made is like ~1.3m. Sounds ****ing good for the price tho. Ali cable is no match.
> 
> Shell is cheap 3D printed Taobao shell, I’ll paint it with lacquer after I retune it. Hope it wouldn’t take long tho.


These all are like Special edition of MASM. Number represent the driver count.

What you did to CI to get the bass


----------



## wolkegeist

dhruvmeena96 said:


> These all are like Special edition of MASM. Number represent the driver count.
> 
> What you did to CI to get the bass


Oh as I said, the cable is 2 pin so I plug it at the wrong polarity, (+) is (-) and (-) is (+), it should be reversed. I was tired after making the crossover so I kinda not care about polarity and phase tho. CI is double yellow damper, with 26.7Ohm incrementer, then L-pad of 4.7Ohm. I’m thinking about removing L-pad tho.


----------



## ForceMajeure (Aug 10, 2019)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> This is how you read impulse response
> 
> And this is what we need for tubeless design.


You'd have a hard time deciphering the behavior of the impulse within the shell though, since the distance it takes to travel inside is very very small. you'd have to really dissect your cavity and learning how each parameter affects the behavior one by one. this is tough work. best would be to use a different approach like an over simplified one. starting with very basic cavity volumes and shapes and see

also in the end there's no such thing as tubeless since it usually end up in a nozzle/tube shape to reach your ear canal, best would be to take into account the pinna and radiate the whole sound against it. but that would not have the typical iem shape anymore...
btw don't pay attention I am just rambling haha


----------



## tomekk

If you consider frequency response test, impedance response graph, impulse response, total harmonic distortions, you will not have enough time to listen to music.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Aug 10, 2019)

ForceMajeure said:


> You'd have a hard time deciphering the behavior of the impulse within the shell though, since the distance it takes to travel inside is very very small. you'd have to really dissect your cavity and learning how each parameter affects the behavior one by one. this is tough work. best would be to use a different approach like an over simplified one. starting with very basic cavity volumes and shapes and see
> 
> also in the end there's no such thing as tubeless since it usually end up in a nozzle/tube shape to reach your ear canal, best would be to take into account the pinna and radiate the whole sound against it. but that would not have the typical iem shape anymore...
> btw don't pay attention I am just rambling haha


True...


tomekk said:


> If you consider frequency response test, impedance response graph, impulse response, total harmonic distortions, you will not have enough time to listen to music.


thatdoes matter when you have a pen and paper before making iem. Just calculate well enough within parameters and these thing align pretty well. Fine tuning takes little bit of time and you are done with a good pair of IEM.

The thing is that....

Making a pair sounding nice is easy
Making a pair which performs nice is easy
But doing both at same time is very hard. You have to break conventions there.

@vitaliy belo tia driver is full open tweeter rather than normal top firing driver, my guess is that, there was no sonion estat/electret driver when he actually made the tia driver. And it works way better as it doesnt induces peak, just pure bliss......I have U12T and U18T(sold to my friend) and I can vouch for that.

Shure SE846 low pass might be the greatest subwoofer ever made, and I am serious. Even though it is old, it still outperforms everything in bass I have listened to.

@FullCircle Noble savant was true example of how less can be more(I think he was inspired by Ferrari, its their stuff). Savant is something deep to my heart that's why I made the Final 2(just to improve the savant even further while keeping dual driver platform)

@piotrus-g FIBAE Black inspired me to do all this weird funny things recently. I dont know why the Helmholtz resonator bass seems to be very different. Its like Banana Moonshine, its very smooth on palate(like a single BA bass), but then hits very hard as it goes down(resonating bass). There was something with the bass that is not explainable but I will try as I am from science field and I kinda know how Helmholtz works.

You get the primary impulse or bass signal from single BA first, followed by zero lag bass boost from resonator which seems to follow a time rule on paper(undistinguishable) but you can sense that bass boost is actually followed by original bass signal but also stops in time with original signal.

So when bass hit

Light Bass -> separated distinguishable powerful decay

But as bass signal stop, the decay stops as well and doesn't go further. Which is a hard feat as it is.




Then comes the Ocharaku brand

And last is etymotic ER4S(the king)




While I used to vouch for Asuis(especially this) and Apex(this I felt like a nice tuning filter, which made sense) when I bought U12T, but not now, as I can reduce pain inducing pressure from every signal component just by altering how sound interacts and flow.



OK back to impulse, when you know how you are going to end up while tuning, these parameters can be then fine tuned, so it is little time consuming but worth it.

It becomes PITA when you do it like me and @Jedrula1 .
Shifting mm changes phase, time and space domain like driver dont give a ***. They want to screw you hard.



And it doesn't seem so nice when I say drivers to my colleagues here....they want to listen transducer from my mouth which I never speak to let them feel burn


----------



## wolkegeist

dhruvmeena96 said:


> True...
> 
> thatdoes matter when you have a pen and paper before making iem. Just calculate well enough within parameters and these thing align pretty well. Fine tuning takes little bit of time and you are done with a good pair of IEM.
> 
> ...


Niceee. Can you show us the way of Shure 846 bass? I think maybe it’s because of the chamber before the nozzle?


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Aug 10, 2019)

wolkegeist said:


> Niceee. Can you show us the way of Shure 846 bass? I think maybe it’s because of the chamber before the nozzle?










The acoustic lowpass

The subwoofer has to pass a through a spiral, then snake pattern, then again a spiral, then through long tube structure, making its way out.

Midrange and tweeter outlet were cut inside the adapter itself to make it more compact


----------



## wolkegeist

dhruvmeena96 said:


> The acoustic lowpass
> 
> The subwoofer has to pass a through a spiral, then snake pattern, then again a spiral, then through long tube structure, making its way out.
> 
> Midrange and tweeter outlet were cut inside the adapter itself to make it more compact


Oh damn this is ingenius. They way they layout the tube is so compact. Btw Do you have any info about the drivers they used?


----------



## tomekk

@wolkegeist https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jguxmYfEmZdHEGIUDvQUnfm3vhxo51WeNKKG0_oRtMA/pub?gid=0#


----------



## tomekk

eunice said:


> Thank you. I found the knowles DTEC, but since I love the BS6 bass so much I was looking specifically for the Bellsing DTEC.



http://diy-ciem.blogspot.com/2017/08/kl-thanatos24iem.html 

https://theheadphonelist.com/an-inner-view-kumitate-lab/

maybe you or somebody else need inspiration from a DTEC master.


----------



## eunice

tomekk said:


> http://diy-ciem.blogspot.com/2017/08/kl-thanatos24iem.html
> 
> https://theheadphonelist.com/an-inner-view-kumitate-lab/
> 
> maybe you or somebody else need inspiration from a DTEC master.


Thank you.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Aug 11, 2019)

tomekk said:


> http://diy-ciem.blogspot.com/2017/08/kl-thanatos24iem.html
> 
> https://theheadphonelist.com/an-inner-view-kumitate-lab/
> 
> maybe you or somebody else need inspiration from a DTEC master.


Thanatos
I remember that
Man, while seeing is work log on this build, I was laughing when I saw him extend the shell a little bit to fit those driver

He won the driver count wars a long ago(if we don't consider CTZ42BA)



He used RAB, SWFK and DTEC
I also use these drivers.....hahahahha
These are one of the best Knowles driver out there


@wolkegeist

Use CI-22960 with single yellow damper(no L-pad needed)
And you are done with lovely bass.

And cross the EST a little bit more higher in frequency because MASM3 has enough treble and crossing it lower may lead to treble heat zone


----------



## wolkegeist

tomekk said:


> http://diy-ciem.blogspot.com/2017/08/kl-thanatos24iem.html
> 
> https://theheadphonelist.com/an-inner-view-kumitate-lab/
> 
> maybe you or somebody else need inspiration from a DTEC master.


holy cow, it's an over the top design bruh, 6 dtec in a row fire to a chamber, then tubes. i hope hey have speaker quality lol


----------



## kmmm

eunice said:


> My two cents: Start with BS6 + Zobel.
> It’s easier to build and it has been verified by many in this thread. I will build MASM 7 soon and I will report if it’s worth building.
> 
> Usually @dhruvmeena96 is spot on in his descriptions, but it’s not always easy to replicate his results.


@eunice: Did you try the MASM 7? I’m curious to hear if it’s worth building. Or if I should stick to the BS6+zobel


----------



## dhruvmeena96

wolkegeist said:


> holy cow, it's an over the top design bruh, 6 dtec in a row fire to a chamber, then tubes. i hope hey have speaker quality lol


If you read it properly and see FR, it was normal tuning. He mentioned itself.

But still a hard experiment to play of.



kmmm said:


> @eunice: Did you try the MASM 7? I’m curious to hear if it’s worth building. Or if I should stick to the BS6+zobel


What do you need from your sound.

BS6Z is more than enough, if you believe me.


MASM7 adds midrange, and prevent treble roll off to give it the airy sound. Bass is also prevented from bass roll off but midrange is attention here a slight more, so bass seems more flatter compared to @eunice BS6Z. I love BS6Z in itself.


----------



## wolkegeist (Aug 11, 2019)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Use CI-22960 with single yellow damper(no L-pad needed)
> And you are done with lovely bass


I removed the grey from rab, add it to GQ, now I have less treble, but it sounds more pleasant than before. Single EST and support from grey-filterd-WBFK from GQ is enough. CI22955í stil ok tho, I just need to remove L-pad

The page is entirely in japanese and blogspot is blocked in VN tho, I have to use gg translate and TOR, so I maybe missed some part lol. The frequencies respones has peak in some points tho, which not really is my thing, I like the flat sound with a little boost in bass.


----------



## eunice

kmmm said:


> @eunice: Did you try the MASM 7? I’m curious to hear if it’s worth building. Or if I should stick to the BS6+zobel


Did not try it yet. Due to holiday season, a few builds for friends and family and my recent purchase of a resin 3D printer I had little time to try out new builds.

I will build it eventually, but I don’t want to make any promises as to when.

Speaking of resin 3D printer, I tried hard to find a way to build a .5mm spiral tube, but I can’t think of a way. The resin printer is easily able to print structures this small, but the resin needs to be able to flow out of the spiral. Maybe I should just try but my experience so far tells me it won’t work.


----------



## Xymordos

Not sure why, but all the EST IEMs I tried sounded really bad. They had this weird buzz to it as if you're on a descending airplane with the air pressure against your ears or when you have one of those noise cancelling headphones on. It's really unsettling.


----------



## tomekk

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Man, while seeing is work log on this build, I was laughing when I saw him extend the shell a little bit to fit those driver



I noticed it too, but when you fill it in the cold polymerization, you can add and change some and you still have a glass diamond. This project is beautiful, except maybe mmcx. 

The worst things created by man are religion, taxes and mmcx. 

I would make inspired copy of Thanatos in the future, of course with the Zobel correction (if needed) instead of acoustic dampers and BSWFK instead of WBFK. This will not be difficult, because all the drivers rasters are non-vented, so you don't have to bother with closing the shell for listening.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Aug 11, 2019)

tomekk said:


> I noticed it too, but when you fill it in the cold polymerization, you can add and change some and you still have a glass diamond. This project is beautiful, except maybe mmcx.
> 
> The worst things created by man are religion, taxes and mmcx.
> 
> I would make inspired copy of Thanatos in the future, of course with the Zobel correction (if needed) instead of acoustic dampers and BSWFK instead of WBFK. This will not be difficult, because all the drivers rasters are non-vented, so you don't have to bother with closing the shell for listening.


Religion, propaganda and (why?) Mmcx

Mmcx are love as they never betrayed me like 2pin did(2pin broke within 7days)

Well its preferences

So let's say connector




Xymordos said:


> Not sure why, but all the EST IEMs I tried sounded really bad. They had this weird buzz to it as if you're on a descending airplane with the air pressure against your ears or when you have one of those noise cancelling headphones on. It's really unsettling.


EST demands that you cross it very high.
That is a electret driver and not true electrostatic. The issue is that we are treating it like a normal BA.
It has precharged diaphragm with signal invertors which if crossed lower can induce a weird discharge(well it doesnt loose it diaphragm charge but it sounds like ionic wind... Electrets suffers from that)

People just dont cross it high enough..

Consider EST like flavour additive and not like main ingredient, that's what I say.


Simply putting
That distracting airy sound is resonance on time scale.

Me and @Jedrula1 are trying to fix it with dual overlay chamber resonance shifting chamber to use that internal resonance for my own good.


That is for project big (sonion woofer spiral lowpass, RAB highpass one)

Let's see how it comes out


Working on project driver wars solo
24 drivers
Easy build guide
4woofers, 16 fullrange, 4 tweeters

Working on True Final 3(true successor of final 2)

Working on CI and ED(Project classic)


----------



## Xymordos

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Religion, propaganda and (why?) Mmcx
> 
> Mmcx are love as they never betrayed me like 2pin did(2pin broke within 7days)
> 
> ...



I hope you do a lot better than the ones on the market, I literally had to rip them out of my ears after 10 seconds for most of them. The AAW Canary was the only listenable (barely) one to me out of the ESTs. 

If they're an electret driver...do they lose their charge if I put them in my room with an ionic air purifier? LOL


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Aug 11, 2019)

Xymordos said:


> I hope you do a lot better than the ones on the market, I literally had to rip them out of my ears after 10 seconds for most of them. The AAW Canary was the only listenable (barely) one to me out of the ESTs.
> 
> If they're an electret driver...do they lose their charge if I put them in my room with an ionic air purifier? LOL


Well I meant it sounds like a cheap ionic discharger sound creeping up in your music. It has tight tolerances as Sonion driver, but I have seen vintage electret driver ionising air for no reason.

Technology has moven pretty far, but DNA is same, so it may have resonances of discharging air even though it doesnt.

Nah they dont loose charge , but it charges up air when it moves


Plus it is inside our ear, so we are even more sensitive.

Just use a 220nF cap and all is solved, actually it adds a good air to music with this amount of cap.

We are going to use dual chamber resonance shifter to make that airy sound be joined properly and seated properly in our Frequency response and decay


Well, EST did work well in my 8 driver setup.

I listened to AAW canary too, It just need the EST to cross slightly higher. I mean tiny bit, and it will be fixed

Hope they are seeing this thread and update canary to be a fine electrostatic iem

(Electret and electrostatic works on same principle, so they are same, electret is just cost saving and easy tuning alternative)



And for my tuning

I follow Picasso for that(Quentin Tarantino also follows that)

He said, 
Good artist copy
Great artist steal

It is how you use the elements and how they fit in.

Well, I copied @Furco GQ+RAB and added a zobel to make it MASM3 prototype

Then changed damper and made MASM3.

Learned something about peaks and SPL in this design particularly
And created a series out MASM lineup
Well I am sorry for that

Same with Final2(it was inspired by noble savant)

My own orignal was RAB-p though...hahahha
Well I am sorry for stealing word(Picasso said that, not me)
I get Inspired may be the right word


Well when I sit down designing simple iem project(modular like MASM or others)...I do a research.

I just go to iem shop, sit there till the manager gets annoyed.

I just listen to all pairs and select which has nice bass, nice mids and so on.

Research on those iem specifically

And then try to replicate its bass, mids and treble

So my iem sounds like that bass is from some other iem, mids sound like some other iem and treble like some other iem, all joined together as a package


----------



## kmmm

dhruvmeena96 said:


> If you read it properly and see FR, it was normal tuning. He mentioned itself.
> 
> But still a hard experiment to play of.
> 
> ...



Well, I was going to build the BS6+ zobel but then I had some extra RAB 32257 so I thought; what the heck -  MASM7?
I really like the MASM3, but it could do with a touch more in the lower end.
I also made som Y-tubing I was quite pleased with (2+1Id) which will fit the BS6 nicely.

Does this seem right?


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Aug 11, 2019)

kmmm said:


> Well, I was going to build the BS6+ zobel but then I had some extra RAB 32257 so I thought; what the heck -  MASM7?
> I really like the MASM3, but it could do with a touch more in the lower end.
> I also made som Y-tubing I was quite pleased with (2+1Id) which will fit the BS6 nicely.
> 
> Does this seem right?


Yes it is right

Just put green damper first and white damper afterwards

And the moment you add resonator to MASM7, it becomes different beast as soundstage profile expands


----------



## Kulgrinda

So I finally received BS6 drivers and assembled them with the suggestions by @eunice. However I noticed a bit of weird thing. Zobeled BS6 hisses quite a lot. It is not super sensitive and my DAP output is silent, so there must be something with the setup or my drivers. 

My idea is maybe zobel values are a bit off. One time I remember experimenting with different resistors on another zobel and when I used quite lower resistor value I noticed the same hissing. Increased the resistor - hissing disappeared. Did anyone notice something similar? Technical data for this driver is missing so I wonder if zobel value is correctly calculated..

Oh and I went with brown damper on high frequency drivers and orange on the woofer. Tried with white on HF and red on LF, did not like it too much.

BS6 sounds really good, nice bass punch, a lot of details, sound is very layered and feels like a one unity and not different drivers playing. Really like this one


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Aug 12, 2019)

Kulgrinda said:


> So I finally received BS6 drivers and assembled them with the suggestions by @eunice. However I noticed a bit of weird thing. Zobeled BS6 hisses quite a lot. It is not super sensitive and my DAP output is silent, so there must be something with the setup or my drivers.
> 
> My idea is maybe zobel values are a bit off. One time I remember experimenting with different resistors on another zobel and when I used quite lower resistor value I noticed the same hissing. Increased the resistor - hissing disappeared. Did anyone notice something similar? Technical data for this driver is missing so I wonder if zobel value is correctly calculated..
> 
> ...


Well the situation is slightly same on some tracks.

The value if zobel is still spot on.

If you lower resistor, you increase damping factor so hissing should be silent. Increasing resistor reduces damping.

The hissing is due to TWFK nature. Cannot help it, BS6Z demands a more cleaner source for some reason.

The major improvement on BS6Z is 1kHz distortion and crazy hissing, and by huge margin.


This song shows the hissing on BS6Z.

BS6 normal(no zobel) turns that hissing into grain, making it sound slightly rough.

BS6Z turns the grainish texture(rough vocals) into smooth sound with silent background but also have residue of hissing here and there which comes out as distracting.

But I love it how complex music is layered properly. Black background music has this small issue but its okay



You can increase TWFK damper with one colour value


----------



## Kulgrinda

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Well the situation is slightly same on some tracks.
> 
> The value if zobel is still spot on.
> 
> ...




With 30 ohm resistor hissing is less obvious, only in silent passages as you say. But with 25 is was quite obvious and annoying to tell the truth. I do not hear any difference in sound signature when going from 25 to 30, it may be more visible with measurements. Unfortunately I do not have measurement equipment.


----------



## eunice

I don’t have any hissing on my BS6 + Z (using dragonfly black or Audio-gd nfb11 or fiio Bluetooth cable)

May I ask which caps you did use?


----------



## Kulgrinda

eunice said:


> I don’t have any hissing on my BS6 + Z (using dragonfly black or Audio-gd nfb11 or fiio Bluetooth cable)
> 
> May I ask which caps you did use?


Hmmm, strange. It was hissing both on my phone and ibasso DAP.
I used Vishay MELF resistor and Taiyo Yuden ceramic capacitor. I used those on the other setup and they work just fine.


----------



## eunice (Aug 12, 2019)

Kulgrinda said:


> Hmmm, strange. It was hissing both on my phone and ibasso DAP.
> I used Vishay MELF resistor and Taiyo Yuden ceramic capacitor. I used those on the other setup and they work just fine.


I use hung lo cheap chinese ceramics. I measure them to find similar pairs as they have very bad tolerances.

But I do think hissing must be an issue of your source and high sensitivity of the dual TWFK highs. Maybe try a different source?

If you were to buy a dragonfly black for under $100 you would not regret it.

Edit: other threads on head-Fi do report hissing with ibasso dap and sensitive IEMs. So I think it’s your source.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Aug 12, 2019)

Kulgrinda said:


> With 30 ohm resistor hissing is less obvious, only in silent passages as you say. But with 25 is was quite obvious and annoying to tell the truth. I do not hear any difference in sound signature when going from 25 to 30, it may be more visible with measurements. Unfortunately I do not have measurement equipment.





eunice said:


> I don’t have any hissing on my BS6 + Z (using dragonfly black or Audio-gd nfb11 or fiio Bluetooth cable)
> 
> May I ask which caps you did use?





Kulgrinda said:


> Hmmm, strange. It was hissing both on my phone and ibasso DAP.
> I used Vishay MELF resistor and Taiyo Yuden ceramic capacitor. I used those on the other setup and they work just fine.





eunice said:


> I use hung lo cheap chinese ceramics. I measure them to find similar pairs as they have very bad tolerances.
> 
> But I do think hissing must be an issue of your source and high sensitivity of the dual TWFK highs. Maybe try a different source?
> 
> ...



It is the issue of two TWFK.
That just loves to sound more hiss-y due to drop low impedance structure on TWFK side if you see the impedance graph. The impedance on TWFK is very low and TWFK likes to hiss and run sensitive. Even Knowles counterpart(if any...i dont think so) will hiss too.

Just use as clean as a source you can or damp the TWFK side a little more


----------



## Kulgrinda

eunice said:


> I use hung lo cheap chinese ceramics. I measure them to find similar pairs as they have very bad tolerances.
> 
> But I do think hissing must be an issue of your source and high sensitivity of the dual TWFK highs. Maybe try a different source?
> 
> ...


I used to have Zorloo zuperdac as a dac for my laptop, but after several upgrades I remained with DX150. Really good dap. And it was hissing a bit with super sensitive IEMs like Andromeda, but not with any I've manufactured. Will have to test it with AMP8, it is supposed to have blackest background.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

I know what is EST problem..

Hahahaha

Downside of first order crossover is 
Distortion(and a crazy one)

a first-order filter doesn't attenuate as abruptly as high-order filters, a driver used with a first-order crossover has to exhibit good performance two octaves beyond the specified crossover point--

For example
in a two-way speaker with a 2.3-kHz crossover point, a tweeter must be able to handle signals as low as 575 Hz, and a woofer must be able to handle signals as high as 9.2 kHz. This is especially hard on a tweeter, producing distortion at high volume and sometimes leading to driver failure.
It may also excite the woofer's "breakup modes," or distortion-producing high-frequency resonances. 

So, and EST doesnt have two octave beyond 10kHz, so it produce a distortion producing high frequency resonance and weird chuffing.

Crossing at 12kHz seems where EST starts producing good result, 14kHz is sweetspot

So, EST is not be E25 or SWFK replacement. It is a super tweeter for new gen High Res audio.


----------



## vladstef

dhruvmeena96 said:


> I know what is EST problem..
> 
> Hahahaha
> 
> ...



But there are some IEMs that have treble extension up to 20kHz (twfk and swfk can do this, though it's not easy to keep extension and reduce nasty peaks of lower treble, 4kHz to 9kHz lets say). Dynamic drivers are also very good at extending up to 20kHz, but they are mostly not as precise/fast compared to mentioned BAs.

Given these reasons combined with new problems that EST introduces, I woulnd't call it the next gen just yet. Perhaps a viable alternative with possible totl implementation that we have yet to see, one that isn't polarizing to people first and then all else. I do have to admit that Sonion's documentation about EST is very different compared to most BAs which is exciting in its own, perhaps it will be a shift towards actually usable documentation as an industry standard. Looking at you Knowles...


----------



## Xymordos

dhruvmeena96 said:


> I know what is EST problem..
> 
> Hahahaha
> 
> ...



That would certainly explain why all the EST ones I heard sounded so weird. I guess you gotta use it together with an SWFK rather than replacing one :\


----------



## dhruvmeena96

vladstef said:


> But there are some IEMs that have treble extension up to 20kHz (twfk and swfk can do this, though it's not easy to keep extension and reduce nasty peaks of lower treble, 4kHz to 9kHz lets say). Dynamic drivers are also very good at extending up to 20kHz, but they are mostly not as precise/fast compared to mentioned BAs.
> 
> Given these reasons combined with new problems that EST introduces, I woulnd't call it the next gen just yet. Perhaps a viable alternative with possible totl implementation that we have yet to see, one that isn't polarizing to people first and then all else. I do have to admit that Sonion's documentation about EST is very different compared to most BAs which is exciting in its own, perhaps it will be a shift towards actually usable documentation as an industry standard. Looking at you Knowles...


When you cross a tweeter, you see the frequency going at 0Hz side(I mean the left side of FR chart) not toward the upper side. Same with the woofer.

I meant octave on the low frequency side and EST cannot do lower frequency at all. Distortion rise become so significant that it shuts lower frequency it self(I mean upper mids in simple terms).


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Aug 13, 2019)

EST only use till now in my setup is to prevent roll off in treble region


New Build

Woofer
*CI-22955 + 10ohms
HODTEC-31230 series + zobel*
zobel
Cz=1uF
Rz=203.5 ohms

These two driver shares the tube
14mm length
damper at the end(keep dampers 1mm distance away from end of the tube)
damper is Single orange

Can try yellow and red too




Tweeter and Full range
*ED-29689 center tap + 2uF High pass*
Update
RAB is removed, as it is unneeded, this setup works actually better even though Impedance is now a little swingy(still tight, but not near straight line)
zobel
Cz=5uF
Rz= ~32.125 ohms

12mm length
both driver share the same tube
Brown damper(same at the end with 1mm distance clearance for safety, damper popping inside ear)


All drivers in parallel


I am still experimenting


----------



## wolkegeist

dhruvmeena96 said:


> EST only use till now in my setup is to prevent roll off in treble region
> 
> 
> New Build
> ...



Nice. Could you tell us how does it sound?


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Aug 13, 2019)

wolkegeist said:


> Nice. Could you tell us how does it sound?


I updated the build

And second, it is a custom build series.
Tuning is for custom shell.

It sounds like it can dig as deep as you can think and imagine in bass without boost of any kind. Its flat bass going down(slightly nudge to give bass a body). It is fast, taut and well controlled/mannered with a very huge extension.

This sounds more like speakers rather than IEM and portrays a lot bigger sense of space than Andromeda even though it has less air. Things sound grandiose and larger than life on mids.

Will be thinking of adding tweeter in future


Flat impedance ratio is maintained


Do adjust ED29689 tube as I feel there is some cancellation in treble intersection to high treble


----------



## vladstef

dhruvmeena96 said:


> When you cross a tweeter, you see the frequency going at 0Hz side(I mean the left side of FR chart) not toward the upper side. Same with the woofer.
> 
> I meant octave on the low frequency side and EST cannot do lower frequency at all. Distortion rise become so significant that it shuts lower frequency it self(I mean upper mids in simple terms).



I get what you are saying but there just isn't a way to have a perfect high pass. I've mentioned here before about how I use swfk and that is to use extremely low capacitors for high pass - 0.16uF or even 0.11uF for swfk. It actually still plays 5kHz and above and very strongly with regular peaks. However, it cuts it quite well below 5kHz to the point where the speaker pretty much isn't playing anything around 2-3kHz. I don't quite fully understand why swfk still plays 5kHz with 0.11uF but it just does (tested with Bellsing swfk and ceramic smd capacitors).

Sonion shows how impedance of EST changes with 1uF and it appears a bit different than what I belive swfk does, but there could be some chance that it behaves in similar fashion. I'd legit start with something like this: 0.22/0.16/0.11uF with EST + ED/RAB/RAF or something else that can do a solid mid range, probably with brown/red damping. If it's hissing, slowly add light damping to EST (if it behaves ok with them). In theory, this should be a standard BA mid range with better treble extension. All of this might be very crazy, I still haven't had the chance of playing with an EST.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

vladstef said:


> I get what you are saying but there just isn't a way to have a perfect high pass. I've mentioned here before about how I use swfk and that is to use extremely low capacitors for high pass - 0.16uF or even 0.11uF for swfk. It actually still plays 5kHz and above and very strongly with regular peaks. However, it cuts it quite well below 5kHz to the point where the speaker pretty much isn't playing anything around 2-3kHz. I don't quite fully understand why swfk still plays 5kHz with 0.11uF but it just does (tested with Bellsing swfk and ceramic smd capacitors).
> 
> Sonion shows how impedance of EST changes with 1uF and it appears a bit different than what I belive swfk does, but there could be some chance that it behaves in similar fashion. I'd legit start with something like this: 0.22/0.16/0.11uF with EST + ED/RAB/RAF or something else that can do a solid mid range, probably with brown/red damping. If it's hissing, slowly add light damping to EST (if it behaves ok with them). In theory, this should be a standard BA mid range with better treble extension. All of this might be very crazy, I still haven't had the chance of playing with an EST.


SWFK plays 5kHz because it has peak at 4kHz according to Knowles.
If you cross it, the peak will have electrically less damping, causing the crossover to not work properly.
Due to 4kHz peak, 5kHz is preserved when you cross



first-order filter doesn't attenuate as abruptly as high-order filters, a driver used with a first-order crossover has to exhibit good performance two octaves beyond the specified crossover point--i.e., in a two-way speaker with a 2.3-kHz crossover point, a tweeter must be able to handle signals as low as 575 Hz, and a woofer must be able to handle signals as high as 9.2 kHz

This is what I mean


----------



## vladstef

dhruvmeena96 said:


> SWFK plays 5kHz because it has peak at 4kHz according to Knowles.
> If you cross it, the peak will have electrically less damping, causing the crossover to not work properly.
> Due to 4kHz peak, 5kHz is preserved when you cross
> 
> ...



I understand the logic of higher order crossover but I'd point out that there is a reason why you pretty much never see it in IEMs like phasing issues, number of components, fact that all modern drivers are full range with very consistent distortion for the full range of sound and probably more. However, Sonion doesn't provide THD graphs, not even numbers for EST, which is very interesting. You might be onto something here, something that might make higher order high pass a very logical fix.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

vladstef said:


> I understand the logic of higher order crossover but I'd point out that there is a reason why you pretty much never see it in IEMs like phasing issues, number of components, fact that all modern drivers are full range with very consistent distortion for the full range of sound and probably more. However, Sonion doesn't provide THD graphs, not even numbers for EST, which is very interesting. You might be onto something here, something that might make higher order high pass a very logical fix.


That is why EST ain't a replacement for SWFK. Even SWFK can go low on full range. EST can't.. It distorts 

Issue 1
EST will start crackling hard(did that in burst impulse) on 1kHz. And signal after 1kHz is non identifiable by ears, even if machine threshold for distortion is not still there.
Issue 2
EST has different resonances as electrostic like to be open from everyside whereas sonion made it 4th order bandpass(enclosed diaphragm with small vent). This makes it to force to release some more energy on low end which makes it distort and electrostatic doesn't like distortion.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

dhruvmeena96 said:


> EST only use till now in my setup is to prevent roll off in treble region
> 
> 
> New Build
> ...


Update: the subbass was too much in older design. And I am an Indian and Indian are crazy bass head by genes. And I find bass too much

So update

DTEC30265 in series + zobel + 10ohms
Cz=1uF +470nF in parallel(1.47uF)
Rz= 110ohms

CI-22955 + 10ohms

Both share tube 
14mm 
Damper is Red at the end



ED29689x2 parallel Half Tap + 2ohms + 1.5uF
Brown damper
12mm tube


Woofer 1 -CI
Woofer 2 -DTEC
Tweeter - 2xED

5drivers neutral signature with slightly boosted and heavily extended bass frequencies


----------



## wolkegeist

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Thanatos
> I remember that
> Man, while seeing is work log on this build, I was laughing when I saw him extend the shell a little bit to fit those driver
> 
> ...


Oh I forgot to mention, it’s E25ST, not the electrostatic ones.


----------



## wolkegeist

@dhruvmeena96
Hey I drew the circuit of your latest design, is it something like this?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

wolkegeist said:


> @dhruvmeena96
> Hey I drew the circuit of your latest design, is it something like this?


everything is correct

just dont add two DTEC
it is single DTEC
i mean to say, that internally, make them in series


----------



## wolkegeist

@dhruvmeena96
Hey I drew the circuit of your latest design, is it something like this? 


dhruvmeena96 said:


> everything is correct
> 
> just dont add two DTEC
> it is single DTEC
> i mean to say, that internally, make them in series


Oh I just wanna make it specific, because I know that DTEC has 2 drivers

Anyway, does anyone tried Noble K10 design? I figured out that it only use CI 22955 and TWFK 30017. 
2 CI for bass
4 TWFK for mid and treble
I’m not sure about crossover tho


----------



## dhruvmeena96

wolkegeist said:


> @dhruvmeena96
> Hey I drew the circuit of your latest design, is it something like this?
> 
> Oh I just wanna make it specific, because I know that DTEC has 2 drivers
> ...


Naaahh, that ain't it

2xCI22955
2xTWFK30017
2xTWFK23991

But why go for Noble K10. When you can try on your own with new design and crossing points


----------



## wolkegeist

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Naaahh, that ain't it
> 
> 2xCI22955
> 2xTWFK30017
> ...


Just curious, because there’s a drama about one of vietnamese labs using bellsing drivers for an astronomical 1000$ K10 clone that sounds terrible. My friend challenged me to make it for 300$ lolz. But I’d probably gonna save up for the new design.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Aug 15, 2019)

wolkegeist said:


> Just curious, because there’s a drama about one of vietnamese labs using bellsing drivers for an astronomical 1000$ K10 clone that sounds terrible. My friend challenged me to make it for 300$ lolz. But I’d probably gonna save up for the new design.


When you parallel FK of 30017 and 23991, you get 20ohms

And same with WBFK, 10ohms

Whereas single 30017 FK is 25 ohms and WBFK is 12.5ohms

So quad TWFK hybrid(2x30017 and 2x23991) FK lies in 10ohm and WBFK lies in 5ohms
Which is more ideal as you are getting near to SWFK impedance(6.25ohms) but double amount of drivers.(this leads to lower treble distortion as power required to power is shared between 4 treble drivers)
Same with FK


But if you go Quad TWFK30017, FK will lie into 6.25ohms and WBFK will lie into 3.125ohms.

Here you have low impedance which means the amp can pump power easily. This is what we don't want. This can lead to higher dB and more hiss prominent with distortion can creep in when BA hits power limit compared to above.


Dont ask me the crossover as I don't know it. And let be it with noble as it is amazing crossover which should be respected.

I may be guessing wrong TWFK too..... Let's not talk on this topic as it is not appreciated. Talking about other iem and the
their crossover. 

And if the person can clone, then ask him to make one himself. Why da faq is he cloning.


----------



## tomekk

dhruvmeena96 said:


> So quad TWFK hybrid(2x30017 and 2x23991) FK lies in 10ohm and WBFK lies in 5ohms
> Which is more ideal as you are getting near to SWFK impedance(6.25ohms) but double amount of drivers.(this leads to lower treble distortion as power required to power is shared between 4 treble drivers)
> Same with FK



That's what's so great. Recently I needed a 150W power supply for a 30' Apple Cinema Display. Google search: Kirchhoff's first law. I connected two power supplies who had 24V/3A in parallel and received 150W of power. Cinema Display works. You can't experience this without DIY life.


----------



## wolkegeist

dhruvmeena96 said:


> When you parallel FK of 30017 and 23991, you get 20ohms
> 
> And same with WBFK, 10ohms
> 
> ...


Sorry, I agree that we should not talk about brand’s design and respect their magic. Sadly all the people that’s making IEM in VN (except for one guy, who I respected a lot, he’s a real engineering genius), made clone IEMs (er4s, shure 846, K10) and reshell certain IEMs that totally alter the original sound; for astronomical price. This guy is one of the not so good makers with tuning but he make really damn beautiful shell tho. He really screwed up this time because he agreed to use Knowles TWFK but instead he used Bellsing ones and still charged 1000$ for it.



Sorry for a little late night rant, I’m just sad that one of those guys make the reputation of other makers goes down.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

wolkegeist said:


> Sorry, I agree that we should not talk about brand’s design and respect their magic. Sadly all the people that’s making IEM in VN (except for one guy, who I respected a lot, he’s a real engineering genius), made clone IEMs (er4s, shure 846, K10) and reshell certain IEMs that totally alter the original sound; for astronomical price. This guy is one of the not so good makers with tuning but he make really damn beautiful shell tho. He really screwed up this time because he agreed to use Knowles TWFK but instead he used Bellsing ones and still charged 1000$ for it.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry for a little late night rant, I’m just sad that one of those guys make the reputation of other makers goes down.


You sure about shure SE846. That needs a lot of investment for cloning. The low pass is acoustic. I have seen name clones with dynamic driver calling thenselves shure se846.
Hahahha....bellsing and 1000$
Even bellsing would be laughing

If he listens to you, tell him to try something new and genuine



Listening to 
gorrilaz : demon days 
Snooo Dogg old classic


on MASM3

Treble of MASM is godly


----------



## wolkegeist

dhruvmeena96 said:


> You sure about shure SE846. That needs a lot of investment for cloning. The low pass is acoustic. I have seen name clones with dynamic driver calling thenselves shure se846.
> Hahahha....bellsing and 1000$
> Even bellsing would be laughing
> 
> ...


IDK where but they found a supply for 846 drivers with the chambers included ( 10 sheets of metal thingy), then just dump it into a custom shell. Some fancy dudes even use their genuine 846 to make custom version of them, or reshell into something that looks good.

I’m pretty sure he’s not listening to me tho. He has 2 designs of his own, but if he coudn’t handle this scandal well, he’ll lost a lot of respect from the local audiophile community, which affect business a lot. 

I listen to a lot of groovy music lately with my MASM. Oh god the treble is so good.
Try:
+ Random Access Memory - Daft Punk (give life back to music, Lose yourself to dance, Get lucky)
+ Led Zeppelin IV - Led Zeppelin (whole lotta love, when the levee breaks, four sticks)
+ Some old Credence Clearwater Revival songs like Susie Q, I put a spell on you, fortunate son...
+ Showcase - Philly Joe Jones (godly drumming part in Julia, Joe’s Delight)


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Aug 15, 2019)

I am going to make a 10driver now.
Hahahaha got motivated for 10drivers now.

CI-22960x2
DTEC
Knowles ED29689 x2 center tap
SWFK 31736

Knowles GR -31502 full range

Triple bore
3.5way crossover
3 way + fullrange


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Aug 15, 2019)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> I am going to make a 10driver now.
> Hahahaha got motivated for 10drivers now.
> 
> CI-22955x2
> ...



CI-22960 x2 parallel
DTEC30265 series + zobel + 10ohms series
Orange damper near the end of tube
14mm tube length (smaller ID recommended but 2mm ID is fine)

ED29689 x 2 center tap parallel + 2ohm series + 1.5uF(its better to use sonion 2389D rather than this for less hectic work)
SWFK31736 + 220nF
Green Damper at the end
24mm length



GR-31502 + zobel
Brown damper in center of tube
12mm tube

Tubes can be adjusted with dampers. Here is the 10drivers

Well, I am running out of driver supplies now


----------



## wolkegeist

@dhruvmeena96 Nice design bruh.
I’m thinking 2x DTEC series + 3D-printed chamber + long tube for acoustic low pass (I’m a fan of Thanatos design lol)

2x Sonion 2389 for mid, may add RAB 32257 + zobel if needed (I’m quite interesting in your acoustic damper by adding tube on the vent)

2x SWFK 31736 for tweeter

I’m gonna try and make a 4th-order crossover for treb and 2nd-order crossover for mid. But I need to find a good supplier in inductance first.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

wolkegeist said:


> @dhruvmeena96 Nice design bruh.
> I’m thinking 2x DTEC series + 3D-printed chamber + long tube for acoustic low pass (I’m a fan of Thanatos design lol)
> 
> 2x Sonion 2389 for mid, may add RAB 32257 + zobel if needed (I’m quite interesting in your acoustic damper by adding tube on the vent)
> ...


2xDTEC in series ....hmmm 4 drivers
Bass would be good...but ED would come out as shouty. You will need a resistor for ED


----------



## wolkegeist (Aug 15, 2019)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> 2xDTEC in series ....hmmm 4 drivers
> Bass would be good...but ED would come out as shouty. You will need a resistor for ED


Oh Im not intended to use ED at all, I want dat Sonion mid sound baby 
I’m gonna need to make a compact design for bass drivers too, chamber + 66mm of 0.5mmID. Looking good to me now.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

wolkegeist said:


> Oh Im not intended to use ED at all, I want dat Sonion mid sound baby
> I’m gonna need to make a compact design for bass drivers too, chamber + 66mm of 0.5mmID. Looking good to me now.


They are technically the same, I mean to say, dual parallel drivers will be shouty.
Try using resistor to lower the SPL


----------



## wolkegeist

dhruvmeena96 said:


> They are technically the same, I mean to say, dual parallel drivers will be shouty.
> Try using resistor to lower the SPL


Yes I’ll try some resistor.

Btw, I want to ask something. You RAB design with back vent damping the front wave, does it still need RAB-p horn and Zobel? Because the 4kHz dips can be fix with SWFK and bass could be enhanced with DTEC


----------



## dhruvmeena96

wolkegeist said:


> Yes I’ll try some resistor.
> 
> Btw, I want to ask something. You RAB design with back vent damping the front wave, does it still need RAB-p horn and Zobel? Because the 4kHz dips can be fix with SWFK and bass could be enhanced with DTEC


Yup, it do need zobel
No it doesnt need horn

The issue is, it needs a lot of tuning and measurements to get the backwave damping schema right

Otherwise you will be left with zig zaggy response


----------



## wolkegeist

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Yup, it do need zobel
> No it doesnt need horn
> 
> The issue is, it needs a lot of tuning and measurements to get the backwave damping schema right
> ...


How about ripple damper? I still have the papers of your explaination.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

wolkegeist said:


> How about ripple damper? I still have the papers of your explaination.


Reverse phase
Front tube phase
Driver assisted front tube phase

All these are ripple damper..

They all cancel and fortify certain frequencies


----------



## wolkegeist

New design for my 10 driver set up. Anyone can check my 2nd low pass on mid and 4th high pass on treb? Originally my calculation was 4,15uF and 6.01mH for 2nd lowpass, but idk how to test them so I try JH Layla 2 mid crossover with 1.5 uF and 150uH.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Aug 16, 2019)

wolkegeist said:


> New design for my 10 driver set up. Anyone can check my 2nd low pass on mid and 4th high pass on treb? Originally my calculation was 4,15uF and 6.01mH for 2nd lowpass, but idk how to test them so I try JH Layla 2 mid crossover with 1.5 uF and 150uH.


Damm bro, you also going pen and paper style..
Well for precaution, spiral bass damper can go out of phase easily due to vortices channelling and very long length.

Do use a normal ID tube after spiral damper to really control phase.
Second, the low pass is not super effective(we use sonion accupass woofer to really get it low pass.)

Do use a damper to compensate that too.

Spiral damper is for getting a desired slope for damping or low pass to act properly. Spiral damping also accelerates the particle in particle theory of sound. As outward length is more than inward length, speeds up the air perception(ear are too sensitive at everything), so don't be afraid to use a damper witshell



And fitting inductors dude

How gigantic is the shell


And do check the DCR of inductors


----------



## eunice

@dhruvmeena96 I would be interested in experimenting with a spiral damper, would you give me the STL files as a starting point?


----------



## wolkegeist

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Damm bro, you also going pen and paper style..
> Well for precaution, spiral bass damper can go out of phase easily due to vortices channelling and very long length.
> 
> Do use a normal ID tube after spiral damper to really control phase.
> ...


He he I’m more of the pen and paper guy than digital. Even when drawing composition/lettering I always prefer inkjng than digital. 

Can you explain further about acupass filter? I’m thinking of 35mm with green filter at spout with them


----------



## dhruvmeena96

eunice said:


> @dhruvmeena96 I would be interested in experimenting with a spiral damper, would you give me the STL files as a starting point?


Ask @Jedrula1 


wolkegeist said:


> He he I’m more of the pen and paper guy than digital. Even when drawing composition/lettering I always prefer inkjng than digital.
> 
> Can you explain further about acupass filter? I’m thinking of 35mm with green filter at spout with them


Accupas is an indirect resonator with damper preinstalled

This makes work easier


----------



## wolkegeist

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Ask @Jedrula1
> 
> Accupas is an indirect resonator with damper preinstalled
> 
> This makes work easier


so it means that i need to make a resonator chamber and then add damper? i've finished drawing the bass acoustic low pass filter, I'll go print it very soon


----------



## dhruvmeena96

wolkegeist said:


> so it means that i need to make a resonator chamber and then add damper? i've finished drawing the bass acoustic low pass filter, I'll go print it very soon


Sonion accupass on 38X series driver is cavity and a 0.03761 +/- 0.007 tube(the red thing is not damper, just pressed it and also poked it...its plastic surrounding the inner tube). The normal spout is 0.96mm with an inner tube


----------



## wolkegeist

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Sonion accupass on 38X series driver is cavity and a 0.03761 +/- 0.007 tube(the red thing is not damper, just pressed it and also poked it...its plastic surrounding the inner tube). The normal spout is 0.96mm with an inner tube


You mean the 38D1XJ007Mi/8a? It's the only driver I found with Acupass on it. Hmmm So do I need to switch from DTEC to Sonion 3800 with acupass to really he using the spiral damper?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

wolkegeist said:


> You mean the 38D1XJ007Mi/8a? It's the only driver I found with Acupass on it. Hmmm So do I need to switch from DTEC to Sonion 3800 with acupass to really he using the spiral damper?


Yup

Well, you can use DTEC too, but you will need crossover too


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Aug 18, 2019)

https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/321562/crossover-frequency-in-rc-filter-circuits

For those who want to understand the MATLAB simulation, crossover etc.

Its better explained on thread..

I want someone who knows MATLAB more than me.. Seriously

And start a healthy discussion on IEM parameters here

I can't rely on Comsol for everything



OK, now for some clarification

Spiral damper has some purpose
1. When we align phase with spiral damper, we align the space domain(wave theory of sound) but actually make the speaker itself late(particle theory of sound). This keeps phase intact but gives the out of head experience as the subwoofer energy  moved particles need to travel more distance.

This is the subwoofer effect in shure SE846 and Fearless ACME.

The bass doesn't get concentrated in between head as the time of other driver is more instant compared to subwoofer.

2. It does some low pass to an extent but lemme tell you, some frequency creeps in, so if you don't have accupass Sonion woofer(38D1XJ007Mi/8), please cross it or use dampers.


----------



## wolkegeist (Aug 18, 2019)

@dhruvmeena96
Today I met the great engineer of Custom In Ear #TXN audio (best SOUNDING in-ear lab in VN), and he told me to read this book:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0...63PfxHTtXm5AiC19QZwMvZ6K9Y1oNDPAN88UmdG6KBFN4

Pretty interesting at the first few pages. You guy should try it.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Aug 18, 2019)

wolkegeist said:


> @dhruvmeena96
> Today I met the great engineer of Custom In Ear #TXN audio (best SOUNDING in-ear lab in VN), and he told me to read this book:
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0...63PfxHTtXm5AiC19QZwMvZ6K9Y1oNDPAN88UmdG6KBFN4
> ...


Have this book already..

Hahahahhahaha

(Well its a thread, but still keep a secret....I have a free PDF)


I have 4th edition though...


Great read and amazing content which helps in tuning the sound


----------



## fredcrys

Hi @Ivan TT 

I am pursuing the same project (IEMs with Bellsing 10013) and after many research and wisdom from the community, I was pointed to the same direction you took 25Ohm/22uF Zobel. Now my question is what kind of resistor and capacitors you used? When I say kind, I mean the style/model of them. Every time I search for them, big modules show up, I know they will not fit the IEMs. Would you be so kind as to point me in the right direction? The image is not too clear on that detail.

Thank you very much
Fred




Ivan TT said:


> Bellsing 6 driver 10013 is badass!
> 
> I love its sound very, very much, lowest lows I’ve heard from BA, highs are a touch too hot but red damper makes them just right, otherwise very balanced lively signature. 25Ohm/22uF Zobel improves things even further. Better than 10025 Bellsing 5 driver.
> 
> ...


----------



## eunice

fredcrys said:


> Hi @Ivan TT
> 
> I am pursuing the same project (IEMs with Bellsing 10013) and after many research and wisdom from the community, I was pointed to the same direction you took 25Ohm/22uF Zobel. Now my question is what kind of resistor and capacitors you used? When I say kind, I mean the style/model of them. Every time I search for them, big modules show up, I know they will not fit the IEMs. Would you be so kind as to point me in the right direction? The image is not too clear on that detail.
> 
> ...


@Ivan TT came up with the design, but I have built a few of them until now. 

My advice: Search for 1206 ceramic capacitor (like https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/cYHfRiXO )
and 1206 resistor or 0805 resistor. 
In principle smaller form factor equals less parasitics (less inductance, less series resistance), but smaller than 0805 is hard to solder by hand. 1206 is not too hard to solder.

The resistors you will get with 1% tolerance, that’s good enough. The caps however come at 10% tolerance, but often times they are worse than that. That is not good enough, so I use a multimeter with capacitance measurement (it is rated at 1%) to find matching pairs of caps. 

You can use tantalum caps but as they are polarized you should wire two of them in series with polarity reversed, which results in half the capacitance. That way you might get around the need to measure your caps, but you need more caps and more soldering. 

Hope this helps.


----------



## Ivan TT (Aug 19, 2019)

fredcrys said:


> Hi @Ivan TT
> 
> I am pursuing the same project (IEMs with Bellsing 10013) and after many research and wisdom from the community, I was pointed to the same direction you took 25Ohm/22uF Zobel. Now my question is what kind of resistor and capacitors you used? When I say kind, I mean the style/model of them. Every time I search for them, big modules show up, I know they will not fit the IEMs. Would you be so kind as to point me in the right direction? The image is not too clear on that detail.
> 
> ...


@eunice covered it really well.
Personally I used 22uF 0805 x5r caps and x2 50Ohm resistors in parallel soldered together (only resistors are paralleled of course) and then directly to one of caps terminals and then soldered terminals of this construct to litz wire that hooks drivers to mmcx connector, then insulated using bondic.


----------



## fredcrys

WOW Thank you guys @eunice and @Ivan TT.

I thought I knew electronics, but you guys take the ribbon. I saw those resistors and capacitors in my research, but though they were too small, now I know those are the ones I need. As far as connecting them I am planning in connecting them in parallel as @Ivan TT suggested, so far so good, but when you say *"I used 22uF 0805 x5r caps and x2 50Ohm resistors" *do you mean five capacitors plus two resistors in one IEM?

This is the schematic I have for the build. Changing the resistor from 25ohms to 50ohms


----------



## Ivan TT

fredcrys said:


> *"I used 22uF 0805 x5r caps and x2 50Ohm resistors"*


Sorry, to make it clear:
1. x5r is a type of dielectric, while it does not have thermal stability of COG or x7r capacitors, it does the trick - google: 0805 22uf x5r for examples/pricing
2. I used x2 50Ohm resistors in parallel, giving 25Ohm resistance but this approach also improves wattage (x2) and tolerance (I think I used 1% resistors)
3. Sorry, don't see the image you attached but @eunice posted schematics in this thread and it is available on soundlink's AE page.


----------



## wolkegeist (Aug 19, 2019)

fredcrys said:


> WOW Thank you guys @eunice and @Ivan TT.
> 
> I thought I knew electronics, but you guys take the ribbon. I saw those resistors and capacitors in my research, but though they were too small, now I know those are the ones I need. As far as connecting them I am planning in connecting them in parallel as @Ivan TT suggested, so far so good, but when you say *"I used 22uF 0805 x5r caps and x2 50Ohm resistors" *do you mean five capacitors plus two resistors in one IEM?
> 
> This is the schematic I have for the build. Changing the resistor from 25ohms to 50ohms


My always go to are MELF resistor or sometime metal film resistor, also ceramic cap or film cap if you can find them in smd size


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Aug 19, 2019)

fredcrys said:


> WOW Thank you guys @eunice and @Ivan TT.
> 
> I thought I knew electronics, but you guys take the ribbon. I saw those resistors and capacitors in my research, but though they were too small, now I know those are the ones I need. As far as connecting them I am planning in connecting them in parallel as @Ivan TT suggested, so far so good, but when you say *"I used 22uF 0805 x5r caps and x2 50Ohm resistors" *do you mean five capacitors plus two resistors in one IEM?
> 
> This is the schematic I have for the build. Changing the resistor from 25ohms to 50ohms


I go with ceramic caps. They are actually the best as Nobium have higher tolerance going up to 20% and I dont like tantalum's interference at breaking omega point.

For resistor, I use precision wirewound as they add a subtle flavour and makes the background blacker. Wirewound kinda eats noise. Metal foil/film would be for brilliance in treble region.

And yes, the type of component do make a huge difference. Predicted impedance was same with different type of component having same value but what was changed was Doppler distortion and THD at the region of where the zobel is affecting.

And the best part of BS6 is that its peak is in region of near ~1kHz. So having a zobel fixes the 1kHz distortion .

@Xymordos they denied my request for planar driver sample. Asking another seller


----------



## Xymordos

dhruvmeena96 said:


> I go with ceramic caps. They are actually the best as Nobium have higher tolerance going up to 20% and I dont like tantalum's interference at breaking omega point.
> 
> For resistor, I use precision wirewound as they add a subtle flavour and makes the background blacker. Wirewound kinda eats noise. Metal foil/film would be for brilliance in treble region.
> 
> ...



I think they got a lot of big customers now like AAW and Meze and aren't bothered to do small sales anymore. I doubt they'll sell them to me if I asked them again actually, they were pretty reluctant the last time I asked. 

Wirewound resistors are quite expensive o.o


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Xymordos said:


> I think they got a lot of big customers now like AAW and Meze and aren't bothered to do small sales anymore. I doubt they'll sell them to me if I asked them again actually, they were pretty reluctant the last time I asked.
> 
> Wirewound resistors are quite expensive o.o


Well, that's sad.


Yup, wirewound are expensive but are worth it. Wirewound kinda act like an inductor (even though scientifically engineers have reached zero inductance ). It kinda restrict HF micropeaks to happen(like small zig zagish thing on uncompensated FR). It smoothens out instruments and has a blacker space kinda feeling.

Resistor in passive networks(cross and normal circuits) do make a huge difference in sound. Its not technically huge but is discernable from ears.

Wire wound - Smoother, organic tone and blackest space
Metal foil - Brilliant, detailed and have a good black background
Metal film - SuperBrilliant and is slightly noiser(this resistor is transparent)
Carbon resistor - Warmer, good for bass point cross or zobel. It makes treble muddier . distorted background
Carbon film - warm, smooth and velvety background. Noise is least offensive, hissing is tonally warm and bearable by ear.(you may enjoy the hissing/sensitivity as its not sharp like transparent resistor or it is distorted and rough like carbon)


Still, wirewound is really good


----------



## Xymordos

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Well, that's sad.
> 
> 
> Yup, wirewound are expensive but are worth it. Wirewound kinda act like an inductor (even though scientifically engineers have reached zero inductance ). It kinda restrict HF micropeaks to happen(like small zig zagish thing on uncompensated FR). It smoothens out instruments and has a blacker space kinda feeling.
> ...



Are thick/thin film resistors counted as metal films? Space within shells are quite a premium so I think I'll stick to smaller ones


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Xymordos said:


> Are thick/thin film resistors counted as metal films? Space within shells are quite a premium so I think I'll stick to smaller ones


yup, thick and thin film are in metal film
and they both sound same at very low power levels


----------



## fredcrys

Ivan TT said:


> Sorry, to make it clear:
> 1. x5r is a type of dielectric, while it does not have thermal stability of COG or x7r capacitors, it does the trick - google: 0805 22uf x5r for examples/pricing
> 2. I used x2 50Ohm resistors in parallel, giving 25Ohm resistance but this approach also improves wattage (x2) and tolerance (I think I used 1% resistors)
> 3. Sorry, don't see the image you attached but @eunice posted schematics in this thread and it is available on soundlink's AE page.



Thank you for the reply brother @Ivan TT 

I get it now. It has been a minute since a mess around with electronics since I started working with software integration. I think this was the last piece to complete my shopping list. I have created a list with all the materials that I think I may need to build an IEM, from DIY impression to drivers. Where can I post my list? This thread is for DIY-IEMs should I do it here or start a new one? I would love your guy's input.

Thanks
Freddy

Here is the image again


----------



## dhruvmeena96

fredcrys said:


> Thank you for the reply brother @Ivan TT
> 
> I get it now. It has been a minute since a mess around with electronics since I started working with software integration. I think this was the last piece to complete my shopping list. I have created a list with all the materials that I think I may need to build an IEM, from DIY impression to drivers. Where can I post my list? This thread is for DIY-IEMs should I do it here or start a new one? I would love your guy's input.
> 
> ...


Its a choice.
You can do it here 
Or
If you start a new thread, do post a link here.

Let's see how the journey goes of you building your set.

By the way @Ivan TT 
Can you help me with ED29689 zobel since I have ran out of ED.


----------



## Ivan TT

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Can you help me with ED29689 zobel since I have ran out of ED.


Will do, give me a day or two though


----------



## wolkegeist

Quick question, what equipment do you use for measuring SPL? And how to set up. I’m considering buying a measuring set, any suggestion?


----------



## eunice

wolkegeist said:


> Quick question, what equipment do you use for measuring SPL? And how to set up. I’m considering buying a measuring set, any suggestion?


I use a minidsp umik-1 microphone and some 12mm id pvc garden hose, a 3D printed adapter for the tubes and RoomEqWizard as software. Works a treat and is not to expensive.

See this post for a picture https://www.head-fi.org/threads/home-made-iems.430688/page-557#post-14796217


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Sonion 2015 - Knowles CI
Sonion 2095 - vented 2015
Sonion 2323 - Knowles ED
Sonion 2389 - Hotter 2323(treble hot)
Sonion 2354 - warmer 2323(vented)
Sonion 2600/2800 - DTEC, TEC, BK etc
Sonion 3300 - HODTEC
Sonion 3800 - HODVTEC
Sonion e25 - WBFK
Sonion e50 - SWFK
Sonion e40 - GD
Sonion e50high impedance - GR

These are not complete alternative but usage alternative


----------



## pace88

eunice said:


> I use a minidsp umik-1 microphone and some 12mm id pvc garden hose, a 3D printed adapter for the tubes and RoomEqWizard as software. Works a treat and is not to expensive.
> 
> See this post for a picture https://www.head-fi.org/threads/home-made-iems.430688/page-557#post-14796217


same with you @eunice


----------



## rendyG

Is there a way to get the damper removal tool (or equivalent) in EU? Or do I need to wait for one to arrive from China?


----------



## tomekk

rendyG said:


> Is there a way to get the damper removal tool (or equivalent) in EU? Or do I need to wait for one to arrive from China?



Actually, yes. You can use a long 15mm MacBook Pro (non Retina) bottom case screw. However, before doing this, you need to file it a little bit. Be careful, not too deep. It will work.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Aug 24, 2019)

This is for those who have access to Sonion drivers.
I have some new Sonion 2389D(Dual driver). This is the best midrange and upper midrange/lower treble driver ever made period.

I recently helped my friend build a pair as a true successor to Savant.

Build

Sonion 2389D(internal parallel) + 22ohms
Knowles ED30761

same as the savant tubing and damper

U-pad
R parallel or R2 = 50ohms
R series or R1 = 3ohms







i just used google images

hot is +
cold is -

well, its balanced so polarity doesn't matter. For those who are just new to Fixed impedance attenuating circuit, the driver first interact with parallel resistor to drop all impedance peak and rising response down to flat, and then series resistor to actually compensate the impedance loss
it provides constant load to amplifier



for this circuit, this is 4db attenuation with 20.44ohms flat impedance all over the place

this works like a charm

20.44ohm resistance(its same impedance for all frequency) with ~110dB of sensitivity






Attenuation pads are amazing if damping factor is kept low. They keep the FR intact and also eats up noise, distortion etc.

They also linearizes impedance and phase plot while keeping the required impedance we want


----------



## tirrorex

Hello everyone,
is there a compendium somewhere with high-end designs?
I looked around but there is so much informations on the forum.
Designs i found on google seems more like headphones designs.
Trying to find some good 8+ BA designs for ciems 
(and also trying to know if i can use the parts i bought 3years ago or if need all new parts).
Cheers


----------



## eunice

This is what I can offer: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/home-made-iems.430688/page-636#post-15051126

Mind you the 2 driver finale beats most multi driver setups right out of the park. Driver count is not your friend 

I don’t think the parts age, except the resin and the glues of course, if not stored properly.


----------



## tirrorex

eunice said:


> This is what I can offer: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/home-made-iems.430688/page-636#post-15051126
> 
> Mind you the 2 driver finale beats most multi driver setups right out of the park. Driver count is not your friend
> 
> I don’t think the parts age, except the resin and the glues of course, if not stored properly.



Thanks for the link, will give it a look 
My parts were knowlers gk-31732-000, knowles bf-1861-000
Apparently those are good quality parts, or at least they were 

Hum, from what i understood more drivers allow for more headroom.

My reference point hardware wise is kind of low (bose qc35II). Tried to replace those by the new sony wf-1000x m3, i was not impressed 
But as for experiences i am looking for a good stage feeling (do a lot of festivals) with a lot of headroom for the bass (mostly listen to hardcore so lots of bass ahah).


----------



## eunice

The simplest and best build for you is the BS6 + Zobel. It has the punchiest bass of all the recipes I have built so far. You’ll need nothing else on a festival stage.


----------



## wolkegeist (Aug 23, 2019)

Could anyone show me the different between RAB-32257 with back vent covered and uncoverd. And how do they compared with RAB-32033?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

tirrorex said:


> Hello everyone,
> is there a compendium somewhere with high-end designs?
> I looked around but there is so much informations on the forum.
> Designs i found on google seems more like headphones designs.
> ...


Q1. What all drivers do you have?
Q2. Are you really willing to buy new drivers?

Answer these first..... And I will give you the recipie

See, 8 driver on 3way cross is easy

The thing is that if you can really get the drivers.

Woofer : Sonion 38D1XJ007Mi/8a (internal series)
Mid range : DWFK 31785 x 2 parallel
Tweeter : SWFK 31736 or EST65DA01


And if you really want to go really super High end. And I mean the top of chart

Go for 
MASM 3 + Sonion 33AJ007i/8 + SWFK32255
Quad bore

I can help in that too



But the best sound might still go to Final 2 and Final 3(Sonion 2389D(its a dual driver) + ED30761....no crossover)

And yes, the design I recently shared is the Final 3

Keeping the heritage of nice impedance, easy to make and super detailed sound with nice touch of bass.....Kobe style


----------



## tirrorex (Aug 23, 2019)

eunice said:


> The simplest and best build for you is the BS6 + Zobel. It has the punchiest bass of all the recipes I have built so far. You’ll need nothing else on a festival stage.



By festival stage i meant that i go to festival, to listen to music, not to be on the scene myself 
Hence why i want a wide stage feeling for the drivers.



dhruvmeena96 said:


> Q1. What all drivers do you have?
> Q2. Are you really willing to buy new drivers?
> 
> Answer these first..... And I will give you the recipie
> ...



Only drivers i currently have are knowles gk-31732-000.
I don't mind buying new ones, money is not an issue here.
Hum, i will read more documentation this weekend, i don't remember what the crossovers are four.

Is it usefull to have multiple tunnels for the audio exit ?
I've seen some customs that combine the exits of the drivers, the other don't seem to do that.

Why sonion by the way ?


----------



## eunice

It’s not only the wide stage you want, it’s also the punch. PA systems have a certain signature that is not like typical HiFi audio sound. BS6 matches that pretty close, I can just repeat my suggestion to start with that - or another well known recipe. 

Y tubing is very hard to do in DIY, as it’s very hard to do consistently. After all you need at least two that sound the same, otherwise you’ll end up with an asymmetrical sound stage. I am currently investigating Y tubing with a resin 3D printer, but I have not yet produced anything usable. But I will share when I get there. Maybe others have a recipe, but trust me: start easy. It gets complicated soon enough and it’s more enjoyable start with a success


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Aug 23, 2019)

tirrorex said:


> By festival stage i meant that i go to festival, to listen to music, not to be on the scene myself
> Hence why i want a wide stage feeling for the drivers.
> 
> 
> ...


Sonion makes some driver which are technically and theoretically unmatched
The woofer 38D1XJ007 for example

Second, multiple exit makes the acoustic vibration isolated which help in particle theory of sound. Mixing tube needs adjustment as we can mess the phase, space, time or particular  particle vibrations.

You can make the MASM 4 though.

It has enough punch to knock you down even in festivals if you use RAB32033. I prefer RAB32063.


Its simple, treble is technically without peak and also doesn't roll off. Bass is from CI driver

You won't need anything actually....after that. And I am also helping you on saving cost.


If you need more dynamic level of punchiness, go for BS6Z or MASM7(7 transducer/drivers no need for manual crossover or multiple tubes, 2 tubes is what you need)

Simplest 7 driver setup and also easy to scale design up

The whole MASM series is modular... So if you have MASM 4, you can add drivers and easily make your own iteration of it.


Actually I try to make my design modular(i was spoilt by @eunice as he was the one experimenting with Final series. Since then, my main series are all modular)




Well wait

Final series was meant to be damper less for main driver...so Final 3 is still in pseudo stage

I am still finding a driver to do my magical work

Or otherwise I will use 2x FED30048 in parallel and then calculate the new resistance needed to drop it back to original value and then use it with 3D printed tube adapter.


@eunice do read above, as I have updated that line.
Sometimes, misunderstanding happens 

....I meant to say that I was spoilt after seeing you experiment which lead to me doing a modular series


----------



## wolkegeist (Aug 23, 2019)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> This is for those who have access to Sonion drivers.
> I have some new Sonion 2389D(Dual driver). This is the best midrange and upper midrange/lower treble driver ever made period.
> 
> I recently helped my friend build a pair as a true successor to Savant.
> ...


Hey @dhruvmeena96, where the heck do you find those exotic Sonion drivers. I’ve been searching taobao & ali for hours without any luck. So can I use normal sonion 2389 or even ED 29689 to compensate for it?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

wolkegeist said:


> Hey @dhruvmeena96, where the heck do you find those exotic Sonion drivers. I’ve been searching taobao & ali for hours without any luck. So can I use normal sonion 2389 or even ED 29689 to compensate for it?


Dual 2389 is 2389D

Its just that 2389D has shared single spout.

Yes you can use dual driver with tube stretched over two spout method.

Yes, you can also use ED29689 but I recommend Sonion 2389


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Aug 24, 2019)

_Acoustic filters typically used in air-handling systems._
(A) and (B) Low-pass filters; Something used in RAB-p and MASM
(C) a high-pass filter;
(D) a band-pass filter, which actually filters out vibrations within a narrow frequency range



well, i am now working on single Driver RAB again
but this time

It will have
1. 3kHz Controlled Dampening resonator(using dampers) like (D).
2. 6kHz Assisted Tube controlled cancelling(using dampers) like ripple damping or Makoto Yamagishi sensei concept.
3. Acoustic low pass resonator like (A) and (B).
4. Stepped Horn.
5. Two staged zobel to make impedance and phase flat.

combining Resonator damper with Assisted tube cancelling schema balances each other cons out

the assisted tube canceller kinda creates a peak at 3kHz, which the Band-pass resonator suppresses and the air column sound is suppressed by assisted tube.


----------



## tomekk




----------



## eunice

overseas import customs retained pending inspection...


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Aug 24, 2019)

tomekk said:


>


I have been waiting for something for the past 2 years. Never reached to my home



I think, I might have true Final 3 design

I will try and let you guys know


----------



## ignotus

Hi guys, maybe someone has noticed this already, but that damper extraction tool they sell is just a thread tap. Just look for a 2 mm-diameter thread tap and you'll find them for less than 1/2 the price of the 'specialised' tool. You may need to grind down the pointy tip a bit (I think that's all they do before selling them as a 'specialised' tool), but you can do that in 2 minutes with a file.

BTW, Soundlink has some pretty tempting discounts on BAs right now...


----------



## fredcrys

@Ivan TT, @eunice, @dhruvmeena96, and everyone else.

Here is the list that I have gathered so far to build the DIY-IEM. Most of you have built these IEMs, so the list will look familiar. I have to confess that I have not searched deep on these forums for a materials list, in any case, I would like for the community to give me your suggestions and comments to enhance this shopping list. The prices are in US dollars and links point at Amazon USA and Aliexpress-soundlink.

Total: $283.88
*Impression and Casting materials*

DIY Ear impression kit (4 sets)
$18.00 - https://www.earplugstore.com/diyimpkit.html

Acrylic Mold Resin - Lisa Pavelka magic gloss UV resin (Soundlink has other options for Resin Acrylic)
$52.99 x 6oz - Ebay_Link
$40.72 x 6oz - Amazon_link

Negative mold Clear/translucent SORTA-Clear 37 (Smooth-On) - You can use Agar-agar as well and is cheaper
$44.36 by 2Lbs - Amazon_Link

Rotating display Battery
$6.48 - Amazon_link

Natural Soy Wax or Clear-Seal Silicone Coating (Lacquer or Nail Polish)
Natural Soy Wax
$10.85 - Amazon

Casting ring cup for Negative mold
$2.55 x 2=$5.10 - Aliexpress

UV Light Nail machine
$25.99 - Amazon_link

*Total: $151.50*

*IEM Cable and accessories*

Armatures Drivers
2PCS Bellsing 10013 Balanced Armature Driver 6 Way BA Full Range
$65.86 (Pair) - Aliexpress_Link - _As of 08/26/2019 the price shown has a 26% discount_
Zobel network materials (Cap + Res) are no more than $5.00

Sound Dampers filters
$2.46 x 7=$17.22  to get all of them just in case
Aliexpress_link
Damper install Tool_Link - $5.01


MMCX Terminals
Female terminal
$3.82 (2p) - Aliexpress

MMCX headphone cable 64in long
$28.00 - Aliexpress

Enameled copper wire 31awg - Red & Green
$5.37 x 2=$10.74 (pack of 10 shorts) - Aliexpress

OuM Kit Accoustic tubes
Acoustic tube Ø 2,0mm outside / Ø 1,2mm inside
Acoustic tube Ø 3,0mm outside / Ø 2,0mm inside
$1.73 - Aliexpress

*Total: $132.38*


----------



## wolkegeist (Aug 26, 2019)

@dhruvmeena96 I listen to the latest tubeless design from TXN labs in VN, it has slightly v-shape sound with strong bass/treble extension. I think it goes something like this. He told me that he use a combination of sonion and knowles, so it’s my guess:


He used fostex dynamic driver (which i believed are also used by Kumitate’s lab), with 4th order band-pass for the whole thing. Quite an interesting design. I hope it’s some kind of inspiration for you guys.
He also has an 1 BA set up, which he used a  PER 88-1626a, I think it’s the driver used in old ER4S, and with zobel. Sound quite fantastic, good bass response, maybe down to 80Hz, surprizingly and incredibly good treble extension too. One problem is some small hiss, I’m quite surprise because my modifies O2 amp is very quiet, yet I heard tiny hiss.


----------



## pace88

fredcrys said:


> @Ivan TT, @eunice, @dhruvmeena96, and everyone else.
> 
> Here is the list that I have gathered so far to build the DIY-IEM. Most of you have built these IEMs, so the list will look familiar. I have to confess that I have not searched deep on these forums for a materials list, in any case, I would like for the community to give me your suggestions and comments to enhance this shopping list. The prices are in US dollars and links point at Amazon USA and Aliexpress-soundlink.
> 
> ...


I think that's enough for a start, it would be better if you use a nicefit resin, lacquer like lack3 (dreve) or lacquer nicefit


----------



## eunice

fredcrys said:


> @Ivan TT, @eunice, @dhruvmeena96, and everyone else.
> 
> Acrylic Mold Resin - Lisa Pavelka magic gloss UV resin (Soundlink has other options for Resin Acrylic)
> $52.99 x 6oz - Ebay_Link
> $40.72 x 6oz - Amazon_link


Don’t try the Lisa pavelka stuff, it just is no fun to work with. I started with it and it was just a waste of time.

This resin is kinda soft, and gooey,  you cannot make proper shells with it.

Also it yellows pretty quickly, whether you expose it a little too long or just by a little sunshine. It’s no good for ciems.

You have to use Dreve, Pro3dure (They are very good, I use them on a regular basis ) , Egger or Nicefit (I have not tried, but there are credible accounts that it’s good

Also you’ll need glycerin, isopropanol, loctite 401 and epoxy glue.


----------



## fredcrys

eunice said:


> Don’t try the Lisa pavelka stuff, it just is no fun to work with. I started with it and it was just a waste of time.
> 
> This resin is kinda soft, and gooey,  you cannot make proper shells with it.
> 
> ...



@eunice, I've got Isopropanol (Alcohol), I assume Loctite 401 is superglue and the epoxy glue is to glue the cover, am I correct? now, what is the glycerin for? is it hand lotion?

@pace88, lacquer-lack3 (dreve) You mean instead of the Paraffin?


----------



## eunice

fredcrys said:


> @eunice, I've got Isopropanol (Alcohol), I assume Loctite 401 is superglue and the epoxy glue is to glue the cover, am I correct? now, what is the glycerin for? is it hand lotion?


You need it to fully cure the inside of the shell. If the resin cures in contact with air a kind of a tacky layer remains. So after you cure the outside of the shell you pour out the resin to get a hollow shell. The inside of the shell is not fully cured after pouring out the resin. So you pour in glycerin and cure again to have a shell with fully cured inside and outside.

401 is the superglue to connect the tubes to the driver. This is the most important glue to get right of the entire build. While inserting/removing the CIEMS in the ears you create air pressure and the connection between tubes and the drivers need to withstand that. Also since you fill up the ear canal with resin the glue needs to not dissolve in resin. I have tried many different glues and loctite 401 is the only one that is strong enough.

For the face plate you cannot use it though. Like many super glues loctite 401 creates a white haze which does not look good when used for the faceplate. Epoxy glue usually does not do that, so I use 2 component epoxy glue for the face plate.


----------



## eunice

fredcrys said:


> @pace88, lacquer-lack3 (dreve) You mean instead of the Paraffin?


Lacquer is for creating a smooth surface finish. If the surface is not smooth your skin will not relax after inserting the CIEMs and you will feel pressure points after wearing the CIEM for longer time. But other than lacquer you can also polish with Dreve Polishing Compound and polishing wheels.


----------



## tomekk

Guys, do you have any information about Bellsing? Soundlink stopped distributing them? Colsan? Any info?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

tomekk said:


> Guys, do you have any information about Bellsing? Soundlink stopped distributing them? Colsan? Any info?


Directly from bellsing... That's the only route.


Soundlink has 5 driver and 6 driver bellsing still


----------



## wolkegeist (Aug 27, 2019)

Anyone know which drivers ATH LS400 used? I was given 2 pairs of the mid/treble drivers of them, and the person who gave me didn’t know which driver are they. I think it’s Sonion 1723WT03, but I’m not sure. The BA list doesn’t have LP400 included.


----------



## Ivan TT

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Can you help me with ED29689 zobel since I have ran out of ED.


Try 10Ohm 20uF zobel, it gives pretty much straight line impedance except for a slight notch around 3.5kHz.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Aug 27, 2019)

Ivan TT said:


> Try 10Ohm 20uF zobel, it gives pretty much straight line impedance except for a slight notch around 3.5kHz.


Done
It works without artifact like what was in with 40uF.

Nice

I did 9ohms and that is sweet spot(5ohm + 2ohm + 2ohm). 3kHz slight notch is still there, but less pronounced with 9ohms



So now we have ED29689 zobel. That will work with Sonion 2389, 2323 and 2354 as they all share same type of specs and same type of impedance plots


----------



## wolkegeist

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Done
> It works without artifact like what was in with 40uF.
> 
> Nice
> ...


Small question, I found a very strange driver, code PER88-1626a, it is some sort of drivers used in etymotic ER4S, as I was told. Anyone has information about it? I think it’s a special version of ED-29689 or sonion 2323.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

wolkegeist said:


> Small question, I found a very strange driver, code PER88-1626a, it is some sort of drivers used in etymotic ER4S, as I was told. Anyone has information about it? I think it’s a special version of ED-29689 or sonion 2323.


Nope

That's the oldest ER4(I mean 20th century one) driver by star microelectronic and was known as rbb-04D2-ps With sub name of PER88-1626a


----------



## wolkegeist

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Nope
> 
> That's the oldest ER4(I mean 20th century one) driver by star microelectronic and was known as rbb-04D2-ps With sub name of PER88-1626a


Thanks for the information dhruv. I saw the spec of the RBB line up, and the RBB-04D2-ps doesn’t have spout, but this one has, maybe it’s the 04B2 one? Btw has anyone got the old ER4 design? Driver -> zobel -> 100ohm right?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

wolkegeist said:


> Thanks for the information dhruv. I saw the spec of the RBB line up, and the RBB-04D2-ps doesn’t have spout, but this one has, maybe it’s the 04B2 one? Btw has anyone got the old ER4 design? Driver -> zobel -> 100ohm right?


Yup
Its B series


----------



## dhruvmeena96

1.575mH is inductance of ED29689
7.1ohm is 500Hz Resistance/Impedance


----------



## fredcrys

eunice said:


> Lacquer is for creating a smooth surface finish. If the surface is not smooth your skin will not relax after inserting the CIEMs and you will feel pressure points after wearing the CIEM for longer time. But other than lacquer you can also polish with Dreve Polishing Compound and polishing wheels.



Would this work "Dreve Glysol 1000ml LP Cleaner Clean IEM In-ear Monitor Remove Stickiness"? Aliexpress and if this cleaner works do I still need the Polishing compound?

Is hard to get Dreve, nicefit, Proc3dure in the USA which means I have to get it in Aliexpress or other sites overseas, that is why I want to make sure to get exactly what I need since the return of materials will take forever.

Thank you guys for the replies


----------



## wolkegeist

dhruvmeena96 said:


> This is for those who have access to Sonion drivers.
> I have some new Sonion 2389D(Dual driver). This is the best midrange and upper midrange/lower treble driver ever made period.
> 
> I recently helped my friend build a pair as a true successor to Savant.
> ...



I was given a pair of combine Sonion 2389 and 17A003, which i cam up with an idea. 
If we cross 2389 with 2.2uF, we has a magnitude impedance of 14.38ohm, pretty close to 17A003 impedance @500Hz which is 14ohm. And wire them parallel to have an impedance of 7.07ohm. They have pretty much the same FR.
Then I saw your post about using 2389D as a successor to FED, I think I can use this driver too. But how do ya calculate pi attenuator tho, and why fix impedance pad and not L-pad


----------



## dhruvmeena96

wolkegeist said:


> I was given a pair of combine Sonion 2389 and 17A003, which i cam up with an idea.
> If we cross 2389 with 2.2uF, we has a magnitude impedance of 14.38ohm, pretty close to 17A003 impedance @500Hz which is 14ohm. And wire them parallel to have an impedance of 7.07ohm. They have pretty much the same FR.
> Then I saw your post about using 2389D as a successor to FED, I think I can use this driver too. But how do ya calculate pi attenuator tho, and why fix impedance pad and not L-pad


You can do that....it will work good.

The reason why I chose to do a pi attenuation was because it was balanced on signal line and also increase power handling capabilities. It has less effect on FR points where impedance strikes.

Try both and you will get it.


----------



## zekester

fredcrys said:


> Would this work "Dreve Glysol 1000ml LP Cleaner Clean IEM In-ear Monitor Remove Stickiness"? Aliexpress and if this cleaner works do I still need the Polishing compound?
> 
> Is hard to get Dreve, nicefit, Proc3dure in the USA which means I have to get it in Aliexpress or other sites overseas, that is why I want to make sure to get exactly what I need since the return of materials will take forever.
> 
> Thank you guys for the replies



Try lightning enterprises for all of the correct materials. You’ll find fotoplast and lacquer 3 as well as the duplicating material. Quick shipping, great service. There are other sources as well, but that should get you started.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Aug 29, 2019)

@Ivan TT @IvanNOON @eunice @Xymordos @everyonepresent here

The zobel by Ivan TT works flawlessly on ED29689
3kHz peak is 7.5ohm(original was 30ohm) whereas DCR is 3.75ohm

And is full flat on impedance

And with 20ohm series resistor, it already sounds better than ER4SR(and I mean really better). The power loading on ED29689 is way better. It sounds like serious business . if I compare it, it sounds like ER4S without the need of amp

Damper used is brown

I used brown, since FR effect due to change of impedance is very minimum after zobel, so brown damper works like green damper as the change in FR region in upper mid is very minimum.


----------



## Xymordos

dhruvmeena96 said:


> @Ivan TT @IvanNOON @eunice @Xymordos @everyonepresent here
> 
> The zobel by Ivan TT works flawlessly on ED29689
> 3kHz peak is 7.5ohm(original was 30ohm) whereas DCR is 3.75ohm
> ...



Great! Was planning a build using the 29689, so this'll come in handy. Thanks!

Anyone knows where to get 2389D in Asia?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Xymordos said:


> Great! Was planning a build using the 29689, so this'll come in handy. Thanks!
> 
> Anyone knows where to get 2389D in Asia?


Its 2389 in parallel with single spout.

You can get two 2389 for now....I get that from India but they dont do international service


Tanotis India mega store(its a local electronic mega store)

Tanotis online doesnt have it, but they will get that in near future


----------



## Xymordos

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Its 2389 in parallel with single spout.
> 
> You can get two 2389 for now....I get that from India but they dont do international service
> 
> ...




it's much easier to work with a single spout though, and Taobao doesn't have the newest Sonion drivers


----------



## wolkegeist

dhruvmeena96 said:


> @Ivan TT @IvanNOON @eunice @Xymordos @everyonepresent here
> 
> The zobel by Ivan TT works flawlessly on ED29689
> 3kHz peak is 7.5ohm(original was 30ohm) whereas DCR is 3.75ohm
> ...


Is the zobel 9 ohm 20uF? Or is this 10ohm? It's extremely hard to find 5ohm and 2 ohm MELF resistor/metal film resistor in  my place, but I have a ton of 10 Ohm MELF resistor at home


----------



## dhruvmeena96

wolkegeist said:


> Is the zobel 9 ohm 20uF? Or is this 10ohm? It's extremely hard to find 5ohm and 2 ohm MELF resistor/metal film resistor in  my place, but I have a ton of 10 Ohm MELF resistor at home


go with 10ohms, not an issue


----------



## dhruvmeena96

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composite_image_filter
go have a read

nice info


----------



## HAMS

What's recommendation for single or dual BA setup to get the upper treble extension without deep insertion?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

HAMS said:


> What's recommendation for single or dual BA setup to get the upper treble extension without deep insertion?



Dual driver
Noble savant diy
Final 2
Dual series RAB
GQ30710 With RAB-p tubing and green damping
GQ30783 with RAB-p tubing and brown damping
Knowles HE(damper according to taste)




Single drivers
RAB-p
RAF-p neutral
FFC-p


----------



## lquidcube

Hello. One of drivers in my Astell&Kern Michelle is damaged  (very quiet sound) and I decided to replace it. This driver have marked JH 5-H which I can't find to buy and can't find specifications for it, but I finded another driver which looks very similar, Knowles ED-29689. So the question is does this driver sounds like JH 5-H or not? Yes, I know this is question is silly without specifications but I have to try, may be some one know something.


----------



## wolkegeist (Aug 30, 2019)

lquidcube said:


> Hello. One of drivers in my Astell&Kern Michelle is damaged  (very quiet sound) and I decided to replace it. This driver have marked JH 5-H which I can't find to buy and can't find specifications for it, but I finded another driver which looks very similar, Knowles ED-29689. So the question is does this driver sounds like JH 5-H or not? Yes, I know this is question is silly without specifications but I have to try, may be some one know something.


JH Layla 2 used sonion 2300 line up, probably 2389. So your best bet is to go with 2389. But if you find the left and right sound different, you can change to Sonion 2323. Or you can check this google doc to check your IEM’s driver if it’s on the list. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jguxmYfEmZdHEGIUDvQUnfm3vhxo51WeNKKG0_oRtMA/pub?gid=0#


----------



## dhruvmeena96

lquidcube said:


> Hello. One of drivers in my Astell&Kern Michelle is damaged  (very quiet sound) and I decided to replace it. This driver have marked JH 5-H which I can't find to buy and can't find specifications for it, but I finded another driver which looks very similar, Knowles ED-29689. So the question is does this driver sounds like JH 5-H or not? Yes, I know this is question is silly without specifications but I have to try, may be some one know something.


JH 5H is pre spec Sonion 28UAP01 for mid range to control the bass line
Bass driver is Sonion 3800 series pre spec
tweeter is normal knowles SWFK


----------



## lquidcube

Thanks guys. This very helps. In A&K Michelle 3 drivers: 2x Knowles 22955 (probably for mid and bass) and JH 5-H for highs. For me more easily to get ed-29689 than sonion 2389, technically they seems equivalent, but how much difference I get in practice?


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Aug 30, 2019)

lquidcube said:


> Thanks guys. This very helps. In A&K Michelle 3 drivers: 2x Knowles 22955 (probably for mid and bass) and JH 5-H for highs. For me more easily to get ed-29689 than sonion 2389, technically they seems equivalent, but how much difference I get in practice?


Knowles ED29689 and sonion 2323 are similar
Sonion 2354 is slightly bassy
Sonion 2389 is slightly more treble extended(slightly more hotter)

Sonion 2389D is parallel 2389 with single spout. 4.477dB more boosted for similar FR. With specific 4.477 dB damping and then specific resistor according to Michelle 3 can help you achieve 1/4th distortion figure

Sorry, you asked JH5H and I replied for JH5
JH5H is Sonion E50dt as per looks

Dont know exactly


Easiest to get is ED29689
Hardest to get is 2388D



I am working with (DTEC-30265 and TWFK30017)x2 per side
8 drivers, 2 way crossover


And also 2xCI + RAB32063 + 2xSWFK(series)
7 drivers, 3.5way crossover(1 CI is full range)

In way of Perfecting

CI-22955
Sonion 33AJ007i/8
ED-29689 center tap


----------



## Talaka

Hello everyone,

I just recently got into IEMs after I had to replace my old RHAs, but ever since then it´s been straight down the rabbit hole. I didn´t want to spend 300+ Euros on IEMs though because I was scared I would loose / break them. That´s why DIEMs look so attractive to me, in case I break them its quite easy to repair them, and at least from what I´ve read in this forum, they can sound amazing too. So what kind of driver combination would you guys recommend? Most important for me would be the sound stage / instrument separation and a neutral/revealing sound, although a little bit of bass wouldn´t be a bad thing either. I listen to various kinds of music, mostly classic, electronica / melodic techno, 60´s, but also hip-hop and modern pop. Also, I do have an amp, but i would appreciate it if I could use the IEM with my phone. Price / building difficulty doesn´t really play a big role for me as I do have some experience with small electronics.


From what I´ve read so far the Finale 2 has the best sound stage, although its missing some bass. The Finale 3 looses some of that soundstage, but gains some bass,is there a way to get the best of the two ?

The BS6 seems like another decent choice, is there a similar zobel for the GV?

Then there´s also the MASM series and boy are there many different versions. From what I understand, the MASM3 pro and the MASM7 might be best suited for my taste, but please correct me if I´m wrong. How does the sound stage compare to the Finales ?

Are there any other driver combinations I have missed? I have only read maybe one third of the topic so far....



Sorry if that´s too many questions at once, but there´s so many things to think about, it´s hard to keep an overview.

Thanks a lot in advance, you guys are amazing!


----------



## eunice

Welcome to the club.



Talaka said:


> The BS6 seems like another decent choice, is there a similar zobel for the GV?



It's a decent choice. Maybe @Ivan TT will come up with a Zobel for the GV eventually, but the BS6 is very very good.



Talaka said:


> Then there´s also the MASM series and boy are there many different versions. From what I understand, the MASM3 pro and the MASM7 might be best suited for my taste, but please correct me if I´m wrong. How does the sound stage compare to the Finales ?



I have built several different MASM3 but not MASM7. The sound stage of MASM3 is not larger than BS6 or the Finale. MASM3 just has more accentuated highs.



Talaka said:


> From what I´ve read so far the Finale 2 has the best sound stage, although its missing some bass. The Finale 3 looses some of that soundstage, but gains some bass,is there a way to get the best of the two ?


That's what I am working on, but no success so far. My time is sadly very limited.

From all the builds I switch between Finale 2 and BS6+Z. They both are very different and very good. The resolution and detail of Finale 2 is unmatched, which is awesome for classical music and vocals. The power of BS6+Z is unbelievable, which is awesome for everything else. But the BS6 is no slouch for classical music either, you have to hear the Finale 2 to even know there is room for improvement of BS6+Z.
If you use the Finale 2 with a bass heavy source (like the FiiO RC-BT, FiiO lightning adapter or FiiO DACs) there is not a lot missing in terms of bass.

Finale 3 is not yet recommendable, impedance gets too low and build complexity is insane (three bores and lots of dampers with glued short tube segments required!)


----------



## wolkegeist (Aug 30, 2019)

Talaka said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> I just recently got into IEMs after I had to replace my old RHAs, but ever since then it´s been straight down the rabbit hole. I didn´t want to spend 300+ Euros on IEMs though because I was scared I would loose / break them. That´s why DIEMs look so attractive to me, in case I break them its quite easy to repair them, and at least from what I´ve read in this forum, they can sound amazing too. So what kind of driver combination would you guys recommend? Most important for me would be the sound stage / instrument separation and a neutral/revealing sound, although a little bit of bass wouldn´t be a bad thing either. I listen to various kinds of music, mostly classic, electronica / melodic techno, 60´s, but also hip-hop and modern pop. Also, I do have an amp, but i would appreciate it if I could use the IEM with my phone. Price / building difficulty doesn´t really play a big role for me as I do have some experience with small electronics.
> 
> ...


MASM 3 pro + SWFK 32255 (series 220nF capacitor) SWFK share tube with RAB.
It’s the Andromeda slayer in my opinion lol.

If you can’t find FED for Finale 2, you can switch to dual sonion 2389, shared tube with the same Finale 2 tubing, and add series 22ohm resistor, and then C-pad of series 3ohm and parallel 50ohm.

Or else you can try my build
Sonion 17A003
Sonion 2389, 2.2uF series
Parallel, shared tube. Then add series 20ohm, and C-pad of 3.3 ohm series and 50ohm parallel. 16mm tube,no damper.

ED-30761 with Finale 2 tubing

This build has quite flat impedance, and not sonhard to drive


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Talaka said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> I just recently got into IEMs after I had to replace my old RHAs, but ever since then it´s been straight down the rabbit hole. I didn´t want to spend 300+ Euros on IEMs though because I was scared I would loose / break them. That´s why DIEMs look so attractive to me, in case I break them its quite easy to repair them, and at least from what I´ve read in this forum, they can sound amazing too. So what kind of driver combination would you guys recommend? Most important for me would be the sound stage / instrument separation and a neutral/revealing sound, although a little bit of bass wouldn´t be a bad thing either. I listen to various kinds of music, mostly classic, electronica / melodic techno, 60´s, but also hip-hop and modern pop. Also, I do have an amp, but i would appreciate it if I could use the IEM with my phone. Price / building difficulty doesn´t really play a big role for me as I do have some experience with small electronics.
> 
> ...


question is, what is your preference??

MASM series all sound the same, but as you go up the model, Bass starts to get more dynamic and punchy and treble starts to become smoother and more detailed
FINAL series is for damper-less main driver and crossover-less solution
RAB series only uses RAB to get significant sound 


RAB(beginner friendly consumerish to neutral tuning)
FINAL(Imaging and Stage perfect balance)
MASM(Monitoring Signature)



Well, MASM stands for *Most Amazing Set for Mom *and *ModulAr System Micro*(@Choy Wei De the name i shared wasn't sounding nice earlier)


----------



## Kulgrinda

eunice said:


> Welcome to the club.
> From all the builds I switch between Finale 2 and BS6+Z. They both are very different and very good. The resolution and detail of Finale 2 is unmatched, which is awesome for classical music and vocals. The power of BS6+Z is unbelievable, which is awesome for everything else. But the BS6 is no slouch for classical music either, you have to hear the Finale 2 to even know there is room for improvement of BS6+Z.
> If you use the Finale 2 with a bass heavy source (like the FiiO RC-BT, FiiO lightning adapter or FiiO DACs) there is not a lot missing in terms of bass.
> 
> Finale 3 is not yet recommendable, impedance gets too low and build complexity is insane (three bores and lots of dampers with glued short tube segments required!)



I can only add to this opinion from my experience. Just recently I was on the business trip with two sets of earphones - Finale 2 (Spoutless FED+ED) and BS6 (zobel). Firstly I only listened to BS6 as it was my latest build, I was not familiar with it and in general was curious. After that I switched to to Finale 2 and never went back to BS6 for the whole trip. The sound signature is straight to the point on my preference. It has a very wide soundstage but in the meantime sound very intimate, vocals are very close, nicely pronounced and so realistic. High frequencies are tamed, but still very detailed. BS6 has narrower soundstage, sounds brighter (well not mine, I used red damper on the high frequency ba, no harshness and hiss finally), but very composed. Bass quality is really good, it is flat with some serious weight, not bloated at all. 

And an addition to this. I was browsing through my audio library (500 GB SD card finally enabled me to have all my music on the go) and found a Chesky records headphone demonstration disc with frequency files. So when playing them at normal sound level I was still able to hear bass at around 30 Hz and less with Finale2. BS6 had a little bit more subbass, still could hear at 23-21 Hz. This made me realize Finale 2 has enough bass and I'll probably will not try Finale 3 even though I have CI drivers on the way. Maybe CI+ED..?


----------



## Talaka

First of all: Thanks for the replies ! I really didn´t expect to get so much amazing feedback within such a short time 

I´ve come to the conclusion that I should probably go for either the Finale 2 or the BS6 as those builds seem to work really great consistently, which is probably a good idea for a first build. Out of those two, I lean more towards the Finale 2, as it seems to check all my points. I got the Neumann KH120s at home wich I absolutely love, and the Finale 2 seem to have a similar sound (yea I know, don´t compare speakers to IEMs). One problem though: I can´t find the FEDs anywhere. I´ve spent the last 30 min looking for them on Aliexpress/Ebay, but no success so far. Does anyone here have a clue where to get them ? Can´t find the replacement from @wolkegeist either ... Is Taobao the place to look for them ?

Also, I´m still very much interested in the MASMs, especially the MASM7, but i guess that´s a project for later, university keeps me busy.


----------



## eunice

I get them from here: https://eu.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Knowles/FED-30048-I04?qs=3unH/Dqlvl99QyMQ/d0qhQ==#.XWk2IEDHlEU.mailto
Be aware they sell single units, not pairs.


----------



## wolkegeist

Talaka said:


> First of all: Thanks for the replies ! I really didn´t expect to get so much amazing feedback within such a short time
> 
> I´ve come to the conclusion that I should probably go for either the Finale 2 or the BS6 as those builds seem to work really great consistently, which is probably a good idea for a first build. Out of those two, I lean more towards the Finale 2, as it seems to check all my points. I got the Neumann KH120s at home wich I absolutely love, and the Finale 2 seem to have a similar sound (yea I know, don´t compare speakers to IEMs). One problem though: I can´t find the FEDs anywhere. I´ve spent the last 30 min looking for them on Aliexpress/Ebay, but no success so far. Does anyone here have a clue where to get them ? Can´t find the replacement from @wolkegeist either ... Is Taobao the place to look for them ?
> 
> Also, I´m still very much interested in the MASMs, especially the MASM7, but i guess that´s a project for later, university keeps me busy.


As I said, you can change FED for dual Sonion 2389 or 2389 + 1700 as I describe above. Taobao is a good place to start, but if you need qualified vendor then check soundlink store on Aliexpress. Everything’s on sale on ali now so you probably can find some good deals.


----------



## wolkegeist

@dhruvmeena96 @eunice
I found this distributor of FED-30048, is it a valid one? If you buy 25 pcs it’s only 7$ each.
https://www.infinite-electronic.hk/product/Knowles_FED-30048-I04.aspx


----------



## Talaka

wolkegeist said:


> As I said, you can change FED for dual Sonion 2389 or 2389 + 1700 as I describe above. Taobao is a good place to start, but if you need qualified vendor then check soundlink store on Aliexpress. Everything’s on sale on ali now so you probably can find some good deals.


Sadly I coudn´t find either the FED nor the Sonions on Aliexpress, so I´m just gonna get the FED from mouser. Thanks for your help though.


----------



## wolkegeist

Talaka said:


> Sadly I coudn´t find either the FED nor the Sonions on Aliexpress, so I´m just gonna get the FED from mouser. Thanks for your help though.


Sonion 2389 is very common driver, you can go for dual 2389 and ED 30698


Talaka said:


> Sadly I coudn´t find either the FED nor the Sonions on Aliexpress, so I´m just gonna get the FED from mouser. Thanks for your help though.


Sonion 2389 is a very common driver and easy to find. You can go for dual 2389 + ED 30761. Both can be found on soundlink store on Ali or on Taobao. Personally I think mouser’s shipping fee is quite expensive for just a pair of driver tho. Also beware the FED and ED in finale 2 is TUBELESS, so you need some kind of adapter to make tubing for them. Ask @eunice for more information.


----------



## eunice

wolkegeist said:


> Also beware the FED and ED in finale 2 is TUBELESS, so you need some kind of adapter to make tubing for them. Ask @eunice for more information.


I simply stretch the tube over the drivers.
Easy with a tube expander: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/BTE...Hearing-Aid-Dispenser-s-Tool/32713436928.html


----------



## fredcrys

fredcrys said:


> @Ivan TT, @eunice, @dhruvmeena96, and everyone else.
> 
> Here is the list that I have gathered so far to build the DIY-IEM. Most of you have built these IEMs, so the list will look familiar. I have to confess that I have not searched deep on these forums for a materials list, in any case, I would like for the community to give me your suggestions and comments to enhance this shopping list. The prices are in US dollars and links point at Amazon USA and Aliexpress-soundlink.
> 
> ...



I have ordered the second half of this list plus the 8oz Nicefit Acrylic and the Casting ring cup from Aliepxress. The idea for the acrylic is to make my faceplate; hopefully, it will go as plan. To my surprise, the materials will be here next Tuesday, Sept 3rd. Unfortunately, the Caps and resistors will take longer. I do not know if I will bite the bullet and order from Mouser or amazon for quick delivery. 

For the IEM mold, I decided to go and get an ear impression and send it to my local Dreve-America office, which is located in my city...Lucky me!! So they can 3D print it for me. The 3D print cost US$52.60 for both ears, which is not bad considering the labor and my inexperience. I hope I am interpreting the Zobel diagram correctly when the times comes to solder. I will be sharing photos of the process.

I want to thank all the community, especially the _*Headphoneus Supremus* and the *100+ Head-fiers*_ on this thread, for all the help on the Zobel and materials.


----------



## kmmm

Someone was asking for new pictures of builds some pages ago. Here’s one. My MASM 3 pro. (K is my initial)


----------



## eunice

Beautiful! What resin? What cable?


----------



## kmmm

eunice said:


> Beautiful! What resin? What cable?


Thank you @eunice
Dreve fotoplast and Dreve lack3
The cable is DIY. (Papri GS01 AWG26,5)


----------



## eunice

And the logo is hand painted?


----------



## kmmm (Aug 30, 2019)

eunice said:


> And the logo is hand painted?


It’s gold vinyl I cut at work on a vinyl cutter. The vinyl is from 3M and looks like gold leaf. It was really close to the vinyls limit because of the small details. I then placed it on the faceplate and built up another layer of fotoplast.

I actually found a great way to make faceplates yesterday:  I make a ring of play doe (big enough for two faceplates) on a small glass plate. Fill the ring with fotoplast. Then I cure this. The underside will be totally cured as it cures with no oxygen. But the top will still be sticky. I remove the faceplate from the glass and put some fotoplast on a clean spot on the glass and place the faceplate with the sticky side down on top of the uncured fotoplast. Then I cure again. Remove from the glass and you will have a spotless, totally flat (on both sides) and fully cured faceplate with no use of glycerol! Saves time as well!!


----------



## eunice

Wonderful. Thanks for the tipps. I stopped making faceplates like this to save on resin and because one side wasn’t flat. With your method that might work.


----------



## kmmm

eunice said:


> Wonderful. Thanks for the tipps. I stopped making faceplates like this to save on resin and because one side wasn’t flat. With your method that might work.


Yes. I had the same problem. But I struggled to get other faceplates materials to stick, so I continued. With this method and Dreve faceplate glue It works really nice. One tlp regarding Dreve faceplate glue: Use plenty of it, and cure it for 10 min.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Aug 30, 2019)

kmmm said:


> Someone was asking for new pictures of builds some pages ago. Here’s one. My MASM 3 pro. (K is my initial)


Nice work
I think you made the shell so sexy that the cable seems to look as a weak point. LoL

You need to have the cable thicc

(That was a joke)

Nice work




Well, this for new members
Rules on making own style MASM.

1. Select driver from the low impedance RAB/RAF(RAB32033/32257/32063 or RAF). Its because its low sensitivity and peak at 3kHz. This driver runs without damper and assist the higher sensitivity , very low impedance driver in completing the spectrum of sound.


2. Now, second driver has to be a driver having high sensitivity, lower impedance than RAB and frequency peaks at 2kHz and 4kHz. This driver is dual damped.

First damper is strong damping to remove internal peak creation at spout due BA 4th order/6th order structure. Type of resonance damping

Second damper is slightly more calculation based.

Since I chose a 20mm tube for GQ in MASM
The open tube resonance occurs at 8.5kHz
Why?

Simple
Keep everything in meters

Lambda = 2(length of tube)
Frequency of node{highest} = v/Lambda

This gives us 8.5kHz peak

So having a weak damper just at the center of the tube, something like grey, will shoot down the 8.5kHz nodular resonance and also its other peaky harmonics in higher frequency.

That's the reason for dual damping GQ.

3. Now RAB has 16mm tube and GQ(or other driver) has 20mm tube. RAB compensate for any over loss due to damper on GQ because its kept damper less. The effect of RAB on upper midrange and treble is non obstrusive and it helps to raise the treble too.

4. Zobel to flatten impedance down




For GQ or alternatives

First damper - at beginning to reduce driver internal resonance and major peak
Second damper - in center - to reduce tube resonance, so I can get my treble lined up properly without sharp peaks


In MASM 3 pro, I have a series resonator/muffler/acoustic cavity low pass. It was introduced to not actually low pass, but shift my resonant peak and 3kHz slightly to left(higher freq).

With 16mm tube on RAB, I get 1st order resonance at 10,625Hz, which has been proven by RAB FR. Adding a resonator, shift the 10,625Hz to 11,250Hz with wider kurtosis and 3,000Hz to 3,085Hz


----------



## eunice

kmmm said:


> Yes. I had the same problem. But I struggled to get other faceplates materials to stick, so I continued.


If you want to try other materials, try two component epoxy glue. It does not release any fumes and sticks to everything.


----------



## SupremusDoofus

Take a look at this: https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones/comments/cxqlje/knowles_files_claim_with_us_trade_commission_to/


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Aug 31, 2019)

SupremusDoofus said:


> Take a look at this: https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones/comments/cxqlje/knowles_files_claim_with_us_trade_commission_to/


USA vs China

Its time to move to Europe(I mean Sonion)
Just ask sound link to get Sonion drivers quickly.

@guiping0922 (if I remember Grace's id correctly )

LoL

Well, it was Bellsing's fault, they should at least changed the specs a bit and also the naming

It doesn't make sense to sell exact same spec driver at low cost.

Well, we gonna miss the BS6 now.

Jerry Harvey, CTM and Campfire names were mentioned.. Though..


----------



## SupremusDoofus

dhruvmeena96 said:


> USA vs China
> 
> Its time to move to Europe(I mean Sonion)
> Just ask sound link to get Sonion drivers quickly.
> ...



Not just any campfire, its the freaking solaris! Their TOTL


----------



## Choy Wei De

I order ready made shells from Taobao and AliExpress, but I need to find a way to have a gloss finish so it look like professionally done.

But too bad that Taobao and AliExpress have difficulty shipping chemical/liquid. Can I use a substitute substance like a 3d printable resin, or normal resin you guys use for CIEM as final coat/lacquer?


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Aug 31, 2019)

Choy Wei De said:


> I order ready made shells from Taobao and AliExpress, but I need to find a way to have a gloss finish so it look like professionally done.
> 
> But too bad that Taobao and AliExpress have difficulty shipping chemical/liquid. Can I use a substitute substance like a 3d printable resin, or normal resin you guys use for CIEM as final coat/lacquer?


Dunno




SupremusDoofus said:


> Not just any campfire, its the freaking solaris! Their TOTL


That's the art of cost cutting.

Well, Bellsing actually made cheaper custom driver compared to Knowles and Sonion plus can also be ordered in lower quantity.

@ZeosPantera I saw one video of yours
High Res sticker is passed by Japan Audio Society to those product which lies under specific distortion category. There are two tiers.

1. True High Res: Japan audio society strict checked with a certificate of signature with every product.

2. High res: Consumer Product association passes it and is less strict and is with the sticker

For everyone
I might be working on my own standard now. That too even stricter than all the standards.

Let's see, if I am able to pass my own standard goal

My standard is simple
1.Linearize the distortion figures and drop it as low as possible.
2. Perfect electrical performance like @piotrus-g does with his iem.
3. Good tuning


----------



## Kulgrinda

eunice said:


> If you want to try other materials, try two component epoxy glue. It does not release any fumes and sticks to everything.


You can try uv glue such as Visbella for example. It works really great, not messy or smelly at all, you have time to adjust parts prior curing. I use it for faceplates, tubings, temporary testing setups. Just started a 2nd bottle/dispenser.


----------



## ForceMajeure

Choy Wei De said:


> I order ready made shells from Taobao and AliExpress, but I need to find a way to have a gloss finish so it look like professionally done.
> 
> But too bad that Taobao and AliExpress have difficulty shipping chemical/liquid. Can I use a substitute substance like a 3d printable resin, or normal resin you guys use for CIEM as final coat/lacquer?


you could sand it down and buff it, but it's a ton of work 
there is no substitute to lacquer for the same shine. maybe try to find an alternative lacquer locally but It will not be medical grade.


----------



## Choy Wei De

ForceMajeure said:


> you could sand it down and buff it, but it's a ton of work
> there is no substitute to lacquer for the same shine. maybe try to find an alternative lacquer locally but It will not be medical grade.



Could I just use a polishing agent and buff it with polishing wheel? I think the material is injection molding plastic. It just lacks the very sexy shine.


----------



## ForceMajeure

Choy Wei De said:


> Could I just use a polishing agent and buff it with polishing wheel? I think the material is injection molding plastic. It just lacks the very sexy shine.


what kind of shell are we talking about though?

if it's plastic it might melt/microscratch under a polishing wheel and the result will not be like you intended. if it's resin then yes you could start buffing it with a buffing compound and a buffing wheel. you'll need to find the right polishing compound for the task. I have had good success with what shiloh recommended back then (look for enkay). there is a Dreve polishing compound as well


----------



## Xymordos

Bellsing's statement: http://erji.net/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=2159979&extra=page=1

Lmao, as expected, Bellsing denies everything. Instead, Bellsing claims Knowles is infringing Bellsing's copyrights, and will take action against Knowles.


----------



## Tulku1967

Kulgrinda said:


> You can try uv glue such as Visbella for example. It works really great, not messy or smelly at all, you have time to adjust parts prior curing. I use it for faceplates, tubings, temporary testing setups. Just started a 2nd bottle/dispenser.


For transparent shell I use Fotofix. Wonderful material.
If the shell and / or faceplate are not transparent then Loctite 406 may come ....


----------



## kmmm (Aug 31, 2019)

Kulgrinda said:


> You can try uv glue such as Visbella for example. It works really great, not messy or smelly at all, you have time to adjust parts prior curing. I use it for faceplates, tubings, temporary testing setups. Just started a 2nd bottle/dispenser.


I use Loon Clear Fly Finish for almost everything: MMCX connectors, tubes to BAs, BAs to shells, tubes to shell, sealing resistors and capacitors, everything! It cures quickly, it's not sticky at all after curing. Comes in Thick, Thin and Flow. It is the best product I have tested so far...


----------



## tomekk

Always watch out for suspicious uv adhesives and other chemicals, even isopropanol. Vapours from uv adhesives (this sweet smell) fuse up the lungs. Always use masks, outdoor vapour extracts and black nitrile gloves. If you find this ridiculous, read any safety data sheet for resin or biomedical lack.

Unless you don't want kids (some safety data sheets (fck!) and dream of different kinds of cancer.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Xymordos said:


> Bellsing's statement: http://erji.net/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=2159979&extra=page=1
> 
> Lmao, as expected, Bellsing denies everything. Instead, Bellsing claims Knowles is infringing Bellsing's copyrights, and will take action against Knowles.


Knowles Corporation as whole is 74years old. Even there child company Audience is 19years old which is still way to old compared to Bellsing.
Knowles created ED-9689 and a CI(pacemaker) in 1988.

I dont see Bellsing and their supporters winning here though. And as we all know, Knowles was silent for a pretty long period of time... Dont you think... Till the point when bellsing was not getting in its own zone of partners.

Its all USA vs China going on nowadays

Just sit back and enjoy...

Plus , BA are going to be slightly cheaper from November. (A hearing aid maker told me)


----------



## alanwcruz

kmmm said:


> Someone was asking for new pictures of builds some pages ago. Here’s one. My MASM 3 pro. (K is my initial)




Here are some of the one's I've built lately


----------



## dhruvmeena96

alanwcruz said:


> Here are some of the one's I've built lately


Which one is which build

They all look really nice bro

Keep it up

(If I knew how to make shell properly......dammm....I am so bad at shells)


----------



## Kulgrinda

alanwcruz said:


> Here are some of the one's I've built lately


Very nice! Which one is your favourite?

By the way how do you add writing or pictures to the faceplate? Picture, sketch is probably printed on the paper, right? But how about transparent writing on the red one?


----------



## eunice

One trick is to use an old inkjet printer with a cd/dvd printing slot. If you put inkaid on the faceplate the ink will stick to it. Never tried it though.


----------



## pace88

kmmm said:


> I use Loon Clear Fly Finish for almost everything: MMCX connectors, tubes to BAs, BAs to shells, tubes to shell, sealing resistors and capacitors, everything! It cures quickly, it's not sticky at all after curing. Comes in Thick, Thin and Flow. It is the best product I have tested so far...



which type do you use?  I see there are 3 variants of them


----------



## kmmm (Sep 1, 2019)

pace88 said:


> which type do you use?  I see there are 3 variants of them


I find «Thin» to be the most useful. “Thick” is good if you want to build a thick layer. When I seal the tubes in the shell, I use “thin” around the tubes from the outside (before I cut them flush.) Then I use “flow” on the inside to fill up a small part of the cavity (not too much) no air leeks!


----------



## kmmm

eunice said:


> Wonderful. Thanks for the tipps. I stopped making faceplates like this to save on resin and because one side wasn’t flat. With your method that might work.



Here’s the result of making faceplates with the method I described. Both sides are super shiny and perfectly flat.


----------



## eunice

Thank you very much. So beautiful.


----------



## tomekk

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Knowles Corporation as whole is 74years old. Even there child company Audience is 19years old which is still way to old compared to Bellsing.
> Knowles created ED-9689 and a CI(pacemaker) in 1988.
> 
> I dont see Bellsing and their supporters winning here though. And as we all know, Knowles was silent for a pretty long period of time... Dont you think... Till the point when bellsing was not getting in its own zone of partners.
> ...




In my opinion this is a bit of a precedent, because IEM world was a bit of a friendly land and for so many years it was immune to sad men in suits. Now we have money and politics.

I don't know what to think about it, I'm a tiny pirate and I like pirates going their own way. I am a fan of Bellsing because I know their products and they make my dreams come true (at a lower price)


----------



## kmmm

I’d really like to make two ear impressions at the same time as I’m really busy with work and kids. My DIY UV chamber only takes one. Does anyone have experience with cambers able to expose two impressions simultaneously? Sound link has one. 
But would it be consistent? In the video in the description the guy is putting 4 impressions in the chamber.... has anyone used this particular chamber?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

tomekk said:


> In my opinion this is a bit of a precedent, because IEM world was a bit of a friendly land and for so many years it was immune to sad men in suits. Now we have money and politics.
> 
> I don't know what to think about it, I'm a tiny pirate and I like pirates going their own way. I am a fan of Bellsing because I know their products and they make my dreams come true (at a lower price)


I would say BS5 and BS6 only

Other drivers were not good


----------



## tomekk

dhruvmeena96 said:


> I would say BS5 and BS6 only
> 
> Other drivers were not good



 I don't use modules. It's not my way.

II give a quality seal for B.BK, B.ED, B.SWFK.


----------



## pace88

kmmm said:


> Here’s the result of making faceplates with the method I described. Both sides are super shiny and perfectly flat.


I was looking for a method like the one you made, put letters or logos on a black face plate, so maybe I can imitate your method, and in the picture there are some of my personal custom


----------



## kmmm

To put logos on the faceplate I put the logo on, then I put some fotoplast (clear) on a glass plate and place the faceplate (logo down) on the clear fotoplast. I then expose it a third time.


----------



## alanwcruz

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Which one is which build
> 
> They all look really nice bro
> 
> ...



Astro boy (white faceplates, black body) is RAB-p.
DC is MASM3.
Red is MASM6.
Ben (Blue and black faceplates) is simple dinmic driver.



Kulgrinda said:


> Very nice! Which one is your favourite?
> 
> By the way how do you add writing or pictures to the faceplate? Picture, sketch is probably printed on the paper, right? But how about transparent writing on the red one?





eunice said:


> One trick is to use an old inkjet printer with a cd/dvd printing slot. If you put inkaid on the faceplate the ink will stick to it. Never tried it though.



That is exactly the method I use. The transparent writing is simply printing white letters on red background, inkjet printer doesn't have white ink but since it assumes you are printing on white paper it simple leaves the white spaces empty. This way direct inkjet printing will appear transparent when printing white directly on acrylic,


----------



## dhruvmeena96

alanwcruz said:


> Astro boy (white faceplates, black body) is RAB-p.
> DC is MASM3.
> Red is MASM6.
> Ben (Blue and black faceplates) is simple dinmic driver.
> ...



MASM 6 = BS5 + RAB

Hmm, how was the sound???


----------



## dhruvmeena96

well, i have to share something
not related to iem

but we made indian's proud
but i still hate the maths and science, even though i am a scholar and it is indian DNA



1st. Axpona 2019 *Best Sound* Audiophile Loudspeaker went to Rethm Audio Maarga v2 from India. Some people said that it may be the best sounding speaker period. And the funniest thing is that its a single driver loudspeaker.

2nd. Kaldas Research Conquest RR1 electrostatic headphone might be the cheapest electrostatic headphone which has a reference tuning for studio purpose and has the least distortion recorded....period


i think i have to get down with some serious IEM designs now

lol


----------



## fredcrys

Hello all,

I have in mind another project, perhaps a Frankenstein project. I have bought *This* IEMs, CCA-C16 8BA drivers. I bought them from amazon but Aliexpress shows more pictures. They are OK but too bright for my taste, however, works fine for playing live. I am able to hear all the instruments but the bass-guitar needs more bass and the cymbals peak the high frequencies, and as a drummer, I want to hear everything.... is too much asking? 

My plan is to open the headphone and put the drivers in a custom mold, perhaps re-using the 3D printed acoustic driver structure and add one tube from the structure. I would like to pick you guys brains on how to modify the sound. I want to add more bass and lower or filter the high frequencies. Adding a Zobel would help??

What do you guys think? good-bad idea? let me know your thoughts.

Thanks,
Fred


----------



## eunice

Probably bass will already increase by using a custom mold, but the peaks at the highs might even get worse (probably will get worse). In addition you will lose any tuning the IEM manufacturer did, so expect a ton of peaks and valleys in the frequency response, it will definitely take long time and hard work to make it sound any good in a different shell. Tuning 8BAs is like herding cats.

So it might be easier to start with a well known recipe and get some experience and then move up to your 8 BA flagship later on.


----------



## shrewdgamer

What equipment would I need to make my own IEMs?

Bose SoundTrue Ultra's were the most comfortable earphones I have used till now, but they have stopped working. I saw a video of opening up the earphones using heatgun, when I tried to open them up using a cheap heatgun, I melted one of the earphones. I want to recreate the damaged earphone.


----------



## Cevisi

Whit wich iems is the belssing 6 zobel build comparable ?


----------



## fredcrys

eunice said:


> Probably bass will already increase by using a custom mold, but the peaks at the highs might even get worse (probably will get worse). In addition, you will lose any tuning the IEM manufacturer did, so expect a ton of peaks and valleys in the frequency response, it will definitely take a long time and hard work to make it sound any good in a different shell. Tuning 8BAs is like herding cats.
> 
> So it might be easier to start with a well-known recipe and get some experience and then move up to your 8 BA flagship later on.



I am very sure that the manufacturer has its own PCB-crossover board in the shell, so as you @eunice say, it may take time to tune it outside that board. My idea was to approach the project from the drivers perspective, taking them out and creating a crossover that suits my needs. I want to take advantage of the drivers. I am very sure that there are other drivers better than these but since I already invested in the CCA-C16, why not experiment.

Let's go back to basics. I think this was discussed here before but could not find the thread. To avoid high frequencies in a mid-bass speaker, what should I use? i.e., resistor, capacitor, inductor, etc.? and how to prevent low frequencies from sneaking into a tweeter? Understanding these principals will help me to do calculations for the elements I will need to use based on the model of each driver.

Thanks.


----------



## fredcrys

shrewdgamer said:


> What equipment would I need to make my own IEMs?
> 
> Bose SoundTrue Ultra's were the most comfortable earphones I have used till now, but they have stopped working. I saw a video of opening up the earphones using heatgun, when I tried to open them up using a cheap heatgun, I melted one of the earphones. I want to recreate the damaged earphone.



@shrewdgamer 
This is a list that I compiled to create the IEMs from scratch. If you follow that thread there are others commenting good suggestions and alternatives for materials as well. The project is a Bellsing-6 BA driver with Zobel. There are other recipes to make your own from single driver to 10 drivers. The first step How many drivers? and then go from there.



fredcrys said:


> @Ivan TT, @eunice, @dhruvmeena96, and everyone else.
> 
> Here is the list that I have gathered so far to build the DIY-IEM. Most of you have built these IEMs, so the list will look familiar. I have to confess that I have not searched deep on these forums for a materials list, in any case, I would like for the community to give me your suggestions and comments to enhance this shopping list. The prices are in US dollars and links point at Amazon USA and Aliexpress-soundlink.
> 
> ...


----------



## shrewdgamer

fredcrys said:


> @shrewdgamer
> This is a list that I compiled to create the IEMs from scratch. If you follow that thread there are others commenting good suggestions and alternatives for materials as well. The project is a Bellsing-6 BA driver with Zobel. There are other recipes to make your own from single driver to 10 drivers. The first step How many drivers? and then go from there.



Thanks.


----------



## eunice (Sep 3, 2019)

You can reuse the cross over, that should ne possible . But it has only limited influence on the sound, since IEM operate in a closed space, acoustics are very important. Having a tube 1mm longer than another is already a huge difference. Add to the fact that most drivers are broadband, not the dedicated woofers / mids / tweeters as in loudspeakers, and you will get to the conclusion that the crossover plays a different role in an IEM than a speaker.

Having said that, it’s next to impossible to build significant inductors in an IEM, they are just too large. You’ll need inductors in milli Henry range and up, they get huge quickly.

Search for RC Filter to learn how to calculate and build crossovers with resistors and caps alone. You’ll need to measure inductance and impedance of your drivers for meaningful results though.

You can also do low-pass using dampers.


----------



## J-breezy

Hey Guys. I’ve only ever built things like the Knowles HE, GK, GV, etc. never done anything more elaborate. I was wanting to try the Bellsing 6 with zobel.
I’ve seen some of the diagrams on how to wire it and I think I understand. But could someone verify the values of capacitor and resistor?
Also, where do y’all buy your capacitors and resistors that small?
Thanks so much


----------



## eunice

BS6 Zobel by @Ivan TT is 22uF and 25Ohms. 

I use 1206 smd ceramic caps and 1206 or 0805 smd resistors. The caps are usually 10% tolerance, so you will need to buy a few of them and measure them with a capacitance meter (or a multimeter that is able to measure caps) to find matching pairs.


----------



## tomekk

eunice said:


> and measure them



@J-breezy I recommend you to use


----------



## Ivan TT

eunice said:


> BS6 Zobel by @Ivan TT is 22uF and 25Ohms.
> 
> I use 1206 smd ceramic caps and 1206 or 0805 smd resistors. The caps are usually 10% tolerance, so you will need to buy a few of them and measure them with a capacitance meter (or a multimeter that is able to measure caps) to find matching pairs.


I used 0805 XR5 caps (22uF seems to be the highest value available in this size), but avoid Y5V as they have bad tolerances and fluctuate with the temperature.
Caps could also be paralleled (and resistors too), this helps to get over tolerances (as these average out), I usually use x2 or even x4 resistors in parallel if I don't have required values handy.
I'd say 10 or even 20% variation in values is not an issue as zobel has minimal effect on FR and also works due to capacitors reactance, which is not changing in line with the capacitance as much.


----------



## eunice

tomekk said:


> @J-breezy I recommend you to use



These don’t have a high accuracy. I think they are worse than 10%. I use them to check whether I soldered the Zobel correctly, as they can measure the resistor and cap in series. 
But for selecting caps I use a multimeter with capacitance measurement, it has 1% accuracy and is generally a useful tool to own.


----------



## Kulgrinda

fredcrys said:


> I am very sure that the manufacturer has its own PCB-crossover board in the shell, so as you @eunice say, it may take time to tune it outside that board. My idea was to approach the project from the drivers perspective, taking them out and creating a crossover that suits my needs. I want to take advantage of the drivers. I am very sure that there are other drivers better than these but since I already invested in the CCA-C16, why not experiment.
> 
> Let's go back to basics. I think this was discussed here before but could not find the thread. To avoid high frequencies in a mid-bass speaker, what should I use? i.e., resistor, capacitor, inductor, etc.? and how to prevent low frequencies from sneaking into a tweeter? Understanding these principals will help me to do calculations for the elements I will need to use based on the model of each driver.
> 
> Thanks.


Hi,

Here is a diagram of basic crossover. I've seen preinstalled filters on Knowles GK and Bellsing 6 drivers bundle, they only have a capacitor and a resistor. So basic principle is resistor will low-pass, capacitor will high-pass. Values depend on the driver. 

Smaller diameter tubing also works as a low pass filter. Higher value damper works as a low-pass. 

Horn shaped end of the tube will increase high frequencies. 

As for the problem you have, maybe you can simply try adding dampers through the nozzle of the IEM to reduce intrusive high-frequencies. You can also add acoustic foam between the nozzle and the eartip, sound might become more enjoyable.

I personally would not open up this 3D printed, 8 driver per side small IEM. I would assume tolerances there are so minimal you would not be able to put everything back let alone change some drivers.


----------



## kmmm

Faceplates with holographic flakes for MASM7 coming up!


----------



## dhruvmeena96

kmmm said:


> Faceplates with holographic flakes for MASM7 coming up!


Try anti glare coating over the faceplate and see how the go crazy holographic


----------



## alanwcruz

dhruvmeena96 said:


> MASM 6 = BS5 + RAB
> 
> Hmm, how was the sound???



I was previously using the SCARY build, coming from that, I feel the MASM6 has better mids and is more balanced all around, the SCARY bass feels warmer to me and it's highs sound more airy compared to the MASM6.

In one word, I would say MASM6 is punchy! I'm about to give Finale 2 a shot. 

The only down side with these builds (in my case only) are my small ear canals, to fit both 2mm ID tubes I need to pour the acrylic with the drivers pre installed in the mold.

It's hard keeping up with all the builds... LOL, great stuff dhruvmeena96!


----------



## fredcrys

Kulgrinda said:


> Hi,
> 
> Here is a diagram of basic crossover. I've seen preinstalled filters on Knowles GK and Bellsing 6 drivers bundle, they only have a capacitor and a resistor. So basic principle is resistor will low-pass, capacitor will high-pass. Values depend on the driver.
> 
> ...



Thank you @Kulgrinda, I just want to confirm when you say "low-pass" does it mean that it Filters high freqs so low freq can pass, right? As far as the project I guess I will have to figure out how to add the acoustic foam or damper. The holes of the 3D printed acoustic structure look smaller than a damper, judging by the pictures, I will have to investigate.



Ivan TT said:


> I used 0805 XR5 caps (22uF seems to be the highest value available in this size), but avoid Y5V as they have bad tolerances and fluctuate with the temperature.
> Caps could also be paralleled (and resistors too), this helps to get over tolerances (as these average out), I usually use x2 or even x4 resistors in parallel if I don't have required values handy.
> I'd say 10 or even 20% variation in values is not an issue as zobel has minimal effect on FR and also works due to capacitors reactance, which is not changing in line with the capacitance as much.



@Ivan TT, You mentioned before the resistor in parallel, I am having a little trouble picturing the design. Would this diagram represent what you have done with the resistors in parallel?
https://crcit.net/c/6077593d05204f01bad4ead747f9d9f3


----------



## fredcrys

kmmm said:


> Faceplates with holographic flakes for MASM7 coming up!



@kmmm Curious question, of all the projects you have done which recipe would you consider suitable for listening to music (iPod, phone, etc.) and which would you think it can work well for live playing? Also if it is possible, whichever you considered, would you be able to link the specs, materials, etc., whatever you have.

Thank you


----------



## stephensynanta16

Guys, I'm new here, gonna build my 1st DIY Iem,

I'm gonna use some universal IEM shell from aliexpress or pry open some KZ IEM for their nice shell, since i don't have any experience on custom molding.

Do u guys happen to know any tested recipe or recomendation for the driver? Single BA, multi BA, and Hybrid are welcome.


----------



## Ivan TT

fredcrys said:


> @Ivan TT, You mentioned before the resistor in parallel, I am having a little trouble picturing the design. Would this diagram represent what you have done with the resistors in parallel?


https://crcit.net/c/7da0448429ea4e8dbe0d60f175be2d88


----------



## kmmm

fredcrys said:


> @kmmm Curious question, of all the projects you have done which recipe would you consider suitable for listening to music (iPod, phone, etc.) and which would you think it can work well for live playing? Also if it is possible, whichever you considered, would you be able to link the specs, materials, etc., whatever you have.
> 
> Thank you


Well I think others might be more experienced then me on this forum to answer your questions regarding different recipes. Also it all comes down to taste. I like MASM3 pro, and it’s not to hard to make. If you’d like it even easier a “simple” GV is also nice. BUT I find that listening throughout an iPhone with only apples lightning to jack adapter is almost useless. The source really matters. The MASM3 pro sounds really thin and flat through iPhone. But with balanced cable though my Fiio Q5s it’s just amazing. Bass is solid and fun and makes some of the criticism of this recipe invalid. 

Some people use gear to listen to music. 
Others, like me, use music to listen to gear. 
If you belong in the last category, I guess you you’ll just have to try more then one.... And you probably will get hooked. 

I find shell building most challenging. You think you finally nailed it, but then you find a flaw. Check out some early post. Especially from Shilohsjustice. His shell building skills are epic! Without dhruvmeena96’s recipes I probably wouldn’t have come to far... I still don’t understand half of it! 

I buy all my shell materials from mcear.de
I’m in Europe. Really nice people. They’ve also got some tutorials online. My colors are from Resin Obsession. Everything else is Sound Link on AliExpress. Resistors and such I buy from mouser. 

You’ll find everything I know and allot more in this thread. 
Start on page 200 or thereabouts. 

Keep us posted. 
(Sorry for the long post)


----------



## eunice (Sep 4, 2019)

fredcrys said:


> @kmmm Curious question, of all the projects you have done which recipe would you consider suitable for listening to music (iPod, phone, etc.) and which would you think it can work well for live playing? Also if it is possible, whichever you considered, would you be able to link the specs, materials, etc., whatever you have.
> 
> Thank you


Here are my opinions on the best ones I have built so far.

BS6+Zobel is the least picky regarding the source. It sounds good even from an iPhone. It also has the bass slam of PA sound systems. The only downside is slight coloration of the mids, but you only hear this in comparison to Finale 2. Finale 2 has more detail and is more suited to audiophile listening, but it lacks a little bass.


Masm 3 pro https://crcit.net/c/4ce3d237c3f04c1fb1db93ab4b4c46d7

BS6 + Zobel https://crcit.net/c/49f54ed9

Finale 2 Reference CIEM https://crcit.net/c/7d75c8a5

Finale 3 CIEM https://crcit.net/c/bd30416c

Comparison MASM with resonator vs BS6 (and others): https://www.head-fi.org/threads/home-made-iems.430688/page-603#post-14961816

Comparison Finale 2 Reference, Finale 3, BS6: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/home-made-iems.430688/page-627#post-15023250


----------



## J-breezy

How do some of you put the tubes down through smaller canals? 
I know some people stop the tubes short of the exit and bore a hole for the sound to escape. (Not sure how to even do this method and get the tubes the exact distance from the exit on each monitor). I had a broken pair of westones one time and they did this. I just feel like each ear won’t sound the same if the tubes aren’t in the exact same location, right? 
I’ve always done the method where you put measurements on the tubes, pull the tube out the end of your bore hole and make sure the same length is coming out of both iems. But I’ve only ever done one tube. So idk how to even go about making two fit

Secondly, when companies like JH Audio do the small metal tubes at the end of their iems, doesn’t that tiny diameter metal tube change the sound?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

fredcrys said:


> Thank you @Kulgrinda, I just want to confirm when you say "low-pass" does it mean that it Filters high freqs so low freq can pass, right? As far as the project I guess I will have to figure out how to add the acoustic foam or damper. The holes of the 3D printed acoustic structure look smaller than a damper, judging by the pictures, I will have to investigate.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Those 50ohms are in series.

Parallel the 50ohms after the capacitor


----------



## fredcrys

@dhruvmeena96 @Ivan TT @kmmm @eunice thank you guys for your responses. You guys have put many things in perspective for future builds. My idea is to use the Bellsing6+Zobel for live drumming and build another one just for jamming music from my phone at the gym or wherever perhaps the Finale-2 since seems to give the best bass of all the others.

I received yesterday my package from Soundlink, it was very fast, now to the Audiologist to get my ear impression and then to Dreve to get the 3D Printed Shell. After the _*Bellsing6+Zobel project, *_I will try to make my own shell.

What transparent material, other than Agar-agar, can I use to make the negative mold, that I can get here in the USA?


----------



## Choy Wei De

Hi, I know this its kind of stupid. I confused myself with many variations of RAB-p tubing.

Does anyone has the final version of RAB-p tube length?


----------



## wolkegeist

Anyone ever tried Electrostatic with Finale 2? I think if we crossed it at bery high frequency, like 12kHz or 14kHz, it’ll show good result. I’m convincing myself to buy a pair (TAOBAO has it now boiz) , but I see some post before said that it’s a very unstable driver. Any tip?


----------



## eunice

fredcrys said:


> What transparent material, other than Agar-agar, can I use to make the negative mold, that I can get here in the USA?


I also have two component silicone but it’s more expensive and kinda Messi (brand is trollfactory)

Agar-agar is plant based and is also used for cooking, you can get it in the grocery store. To turn it into the impression material you need to add glycerin, the recipe is somewhere here in the thread. 

If you have a dreve shop they will sell you the impression material too. Maybe it’s easier for the start to go with that.


----------



## Andrumgt

eunice said:


> I also have two component silicone but it’s more expensive and kinda Messi (brand is trollfactory)



Sorry for the off topic, but if someone needs a good A+B silicone dispenser, without bubbles, and very cheap, like 200€, PM me.


----------



## pace88

eunice said:


> I also have two component silicone but it’s more expensive and kinda Messi (brand is trollfactory)
> 
> Agar-agar is plant based and is also used for cooking, you can get it in the grocery store. To turn it into the impression material you need to add glycerin, the recipe is somewhere here in the thread.
> 
> If you have a dreve shop they will sell you the impression material too. Maybe it’s easier for the start to go with that.


additionally
two-component silicon (transparent) is very good for molding, its strength is very strong, it will tear and will survive in the same time without significant shrinkage, in my opinion it is a patent, for agar2 types it will shrink at certain periods more easily  torn compared to the type of silicon, the excess he can be melted back, so in my opinion get it so that maybe from dreve or similar products or you make your own DIY (gelatin)


----------



## Kulgrinda (Sep 5, 2019)

fredcrys said:


> Thank you @Kulgrinda, I just want to confirm when you say "low-pass" does it mean that it Filters high freqs so low freq can pass, right? As far as the project I guess I will have to figure out how to add the acoustic foam or damper. The holes of the 3D printed acoustic structure look smaller than a damper, judging by the pictures, I will have to investigate.



That is correct. Filter's naming is self explanatory - "low-pass" would cut higher frequencies and let the low frequencies pass by.

There are different diameter filters available from Knowles. Firstly I would suggest stuffing the high frequency sound bore with a piece of acoustic foam or wool just to check if effect is noticeable. If a filter gets stuck you won't be able to pull it away. Of course with wool you will not get that consistent result as with a dedicated filter, but for testing purposes it is fine. I managed to tame some overly enthusiastic high frequencies in some KZ earphones with acoustic foam.


----------



## stephensynanta16

Caluub said:


> Just finished a set of universals using the RAB 32257 design by dhruvmeena and Choy Wei De. I wanted to build something inexpensive to use with a Bluetooth adapter while at the gym or climbing. This is only the second set of universals I've built. Previous builds include three iterations of customs with Knowles GV, one universal with GV for my girlfriend, and a B6 + zobel ciem that I'm currently working on.
> 
> I think these sound great for a sub-$100 build. Bass reproduction is lacking a bit and treble could use a bit more taming to prevent fatigue. Overall, the quality for price is amazing and the work put into the zobel and tubing (dhruvmeena & Choy Wei De) for this is very impressive.
> 
> ...


Hi, nice shell u got there. Where can i find that kind of shell?


----------



## Lucas Taboada

Choy Wei De said:


> Hi, I know this its kind of stupid. I confused myself with many variations of RAB-p tubing.
> 
> Does anyone has the final version of RAB-p tube length?



Hi, this is what I have in my notes, but I don't know if its the final version, I'm a bit confused too 

RAB-P
Resonator(shifted near horn, for less tube effect)
1.2mm ID 2mm OD(6.5mm length from spout)
2.0mm ID 3mm OD(1.0mm length, Resonator, Buffer Mouth for horn)
1.2mm ID 2mm OD(2.5mm length)

Horn
2.0mm ID 3mm OD(2.5mm length) -> White Damper
3.0mm ID 4mm OD(3mm length)

Zobel circuit
Cz = 4.6uF
Rz = 41ohms

Series resistor 20ohms


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Noble Savant with zobel on ED29689 sounds way too good. Actually too good for its own good


----------



## pace88 (Sep 5, 2019)

#SHARE
 hand box grinding(supporting tools)
 my project uses 3mm acrylic material with snapfit / puzzle pieces

box hand spec :
-Lenght 40cm
-Widht 25cm
-Height 15cm
-Hand hole 9cm

fan spec :
 -12,5cm X 12,5cm
-25watt
-4000rpm max speed

Led
-Lenght 37cm
-6watt

dust bag :
-karcher filter blue

-cuff

unfortunately can not share video to see the performance of this box , it works really really well , happy


----------



## Squirg

pace88 said:


> #SHARE
> hand box grinding(supporting tools)
> my project uses 3mm acrylic material with snapfit / puzzle pieces
> 
> ...



Love this!  Thanks for posting.  Been procuring supplies for this project for a while and it's nice to see it broken down like this before I get started.  Also nice to see a fellow cycling junkie in the DIEM community!


----------



## tomekk

@pace88  That's my boy!. Health first. I also propose a mask to use preventively and necessarily nitrile gloves. Touching liquid acrylic and isopropanol can cause dermatitis. Always read material safety data sheet, guys.


----------



## Caluub

stephensynanta16 said:


> Hi, nice shell u got there. Where can i find that kind of shell?



https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32873071827.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.29a84c4dANkde7


----------



## Caluub

pace88 said:


> #SHARE
> hand box grinding(supporting tools)
> my project uses 3mm acrylic material with snapfit / puzzle pieces
> 
> ...



This is fantastic. I wish I had the means to cut the acrylic like that.


----------



## pace88

[QUOTE = "pace88, posting: 15169104, anggota: 489596"] # SHARE
 hand box grinding (alat pendukung)
 proyek saya menggunakan bahan akrilik 3mm dengan potongan snapfit / puzzle

kotak tangan spec:
- Panjang 40cm
-Lebar 25cm
-Tinggi 15cm
-Lubang tangan 9cm

spesifikasi kipas:
 -12,5cm X 12,5cm
-25watt
Kecepatan maksimum -4000rpm

LED
- Panjang 37cm
-6watt

kantong debu:
Filter biru-raja

-manset

sayangnya tidak dapat berbagi video untuk melihat kinerja kotak ini, ini berfungsi dengan sangat baik, senang [/ QUOTE]



Caluub said:


> This is fantastic. I wish I had the means to cut the acrylic like that.





Caluub said:


> This is fantastic. I wish I had the means to cut the acrylic like that.





Caluub said:


> This is fantastic. I wish I had the means to cut the acrylic like that.


You can use laser cutting services, it will be difficult if done manually, especially if you are aiming for a precise size, I deliberately make snapfit pieces to lock and glue the corners, so that the dust is completely trapped inside there, I'm waiting for the filter hepa on my way  to maximize filter performance


----------



## dhruvmeena96

I have this question
@piotrus-g @Everyone

What will happen if we use center tap with Knowles CI-22955?

I haven't tried yet but from what I know, center tap will reduce bass and increase upper mids and treble.
And what are we going to see in inductance and impedances as center tap is like going half coil.

I just want to confirm plus want to get an idea on how center tap on CI sounds like


----------



## eunice

DC resistance is going to be half, but inductance is not going to be exactly half, as the rest of the unused part of the coil should act a little like a core in an inductor. Don’t think that effect is very strong, but it should be measurable. I am still waiting for a device to accurately measure inductance to arrive, all I have where not really capable of measuring the inductance of BAs.


----------



## Choy Wei De

Lucas Taboada said:


> Hi, this is what I have in my notes, but I don't know if its the final version, I'm a bit confused too
> 
> RAB-P
> Resonator(shifted near horn, for less tube effect)
> ...



Thank you so much!


----------



## dhruvmeena96

eunice said:


> DC resistance is going to be half, but inductance is not going to be exactly half, as the rest of the unused part of the coil should act a little like a core in an inductor. Don’t think that effect is very strong, but it should be measurable. I am still waiting for a device to accurately measure inductance to arrive, all I have where not really capable of measuring the inductance of BAs.


I just want to lower the bass boost and get some upper mids boost.

I am going with

CI-22955 woofer
CI-22955 midrange center tap
ED29689 upper midrange center tap


----------



## vladstef (Sep 7, 2019)

Sonion electrostatic is on soundlink. It's very expensive, maybe a single driver version won't be . Here is the link.

How fragile is this driver for testing, removing and adding tubes, resoldering etc.?


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Sep 7, 2019)

vladstef said:


> Sonion electrostatic is on soundlink. It's very expensive, maybe a single driver version won't be . Here is the link.
> 
> How fragile is this driver for testing, removing and adding tubes, resoldering etc.?


Damm, that's 200$ territory

Its okay, but do make sure to not handle it roughly
I bought 2 pairs of EST at that cost. 

But then it is single pair and available to all, cannot question the pricing for now.

Let's see in future


----------



## wolkegeist (Sep 7, 2019)

vladstef said:


> Sonion electrostatic is on soundlink. It's very expensive, maybe a single driver version won't be . Here is the link.
> 
> How fragile is this driver for testing, removing and adding tubes, resoldering etc.?


I found one on Taobao for 399¥, which is about 60$ for one unit, ~120$ for a pair. Can’t say if it’s fake or not 
Here’s the link: https://m.intl.taobao.com/detail/de...464718503#modal=share&timeStamp=1567862937944


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Sep 7, 2019)

All these specific drivers are on soundlink


Knowles SWFK - 32625 might be the best tweeter if you want to just raise the existing treble sightly.

Knowles ED26805 might be the ED29689 + green damper + 20ohms replacement for me. Might be used in Savant style build, as this might remove the learning curve whatsoever. Zobel will be introduced. Final 2 might get a spinoff update

Knowles ED26821 is Sonion 2354 with more warmth and bass. Might also be used in future build


----------



## wolkegeist

Hey @dhruvmeena96 have you ever try electrostatic with finale design? If we cross it at 12-14kHz, will it be any good?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

wolkegeist said:


> Hey @dhruvmeena96 have you ever try electrostatic with finale design? If we cross it at 12-14kHz, will it be any good?


I haven't tried it.
Not so much worth it


----------



## HAMS

dhruvmeena96 said:


> All these specific drivers are on soundlink
> 
> 
> Knowles SWFK - 32625 might be the best tweeter if you want to just raise the existing treble sightly.
> ...



Any reason why those drivers cost twice the ED29689?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

HAMS said:


> Any reason why those drivers cost twice the ED29689?


ED29689 is popular
So of we go according to demand and supply
It makes sense


----------



## stephensynanta16

Can u guys recommend any book/e-book about diy IEM?


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Sep 9, 2019)

stephensynanta16 said:


> Can u guys recommend any book/e-book about diy IEM?


It really depends how deep you want to get...

If you want overview with basic knowledge(to level of building iem)
You can use @Furco book.

OK
Here is my classification

Level Basic
1. @Furco compilation book
2. Playing with dampers

Level intermediate
1. Extreme knowledge of passive circuit in signal. Get any electrical and electronics book
2. Good and thorough understanding of Balanced Armature Transducer parameters(actually learn conventional speaker parameters)
3. Master handbook of Acoustics by F. Alton Everest.

Level Advanced
1. Building IEM experience
2. Tube acoustic physics(open, closed, variable dimension etc)
3. Resonance calculation
4. Method of representing the acoustic pathway as an electrical circuit and control individual parameters.

Level Extreme
1. Computer simulation of sound parameters and fixing it
2. Instrumental simulation of electrical parameters and fixing it(impedance and phase)

Level Godly(and I mean I haven't covered topics myself thoroughly)
1. Tube flow mechanics and Natural crossovers
2. Tia Concept(its really very hard to implement, but understanding concept thoroughly might help)
3. Helmholtz Resonator
4. Janus Resonator
4. Adjacent tube resonator
5. Hybrid pressure to wave change
6. Mapping heat zone inside acoustic pathways and fixing it with mathematical equations
7. Reducing distortion just by structural acoustic science.


----------



## stephensynanta16

dhruvmeena96 said:


> It really depends how deep you want to get...
> 
> If you want overview with basic knowledge(to level of building iem)
> You can use @Furco book.
> ...


Oh god, i thought i knew a thing or two, now i think i knew nothing.

btw, thx for answering, i've built my 1st pair by following your bellsing6+zobel schematic, and it's great.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

stephensynanta16 said:


> Oh god, i thought i knew a thing or two, now i think i knew nothing.
> 
> btw, thx for answering, i've built my 1st pair by following your bellsing6+zobel schematic, and it's great.


It was not me
Thanks to @Ivan TT and @eunice 
Bellsing 6 Zobel or BS6Z is @eunice tuning and zobel by @Ivan TT 

I am creator of MASM, Final and RAB series


----------



## stephensynanta16

dhruvmeena96 said:


> It was not me
> Thanks to @Ivan TT and @eunice
> Bellsing 6 Zobel or BS6Z is @eunice tuning and zobel by @Ivan TT
> 
> I am creator of MASM, Final and RAB series


Ah, sorry, my bad.
Thx @Ivan TT , @eunice , it was a great design.


----------



## wolkegeist (Sep 10, 2019)

stephensynanta16 said:


> Can u guys recommend any book/e-book about diy IEM?


In addition to @dhruvmeena96 suggestions, I think you should take a closer look at loudspeaker design books, and also study on acoustic implements. Master handbook of Acoustic is a great book for that.

Also read Hi-fi Loudspeaker and enclosure by Abraham B. Cohen for more insight on enclosure and how it effects phase and SPL. This book also shows a little bit of how to represent acoustic pathway as electrical pathway for easier management.

Last but nor least, Loudspeaker and Headphone Handbook by John Borwick for more examples of multi-driver system, this book is also very detail on acouctical and electrical circuitry that you can apply on making multi-BA IEM. It also shows you how to measure speaker SPL and resonance, decay, which is very useful tho.


----------



## DannyBouwhuis

wolkegeist said:


> In addition to @dhruvmeena96
> Last but nor least, Loudspeaker and Headphone Handbook by John Borwick for more examples of multi-driver system, this book is also very detail on acouctical and electrical circuitry that you can apply on making multi-BA IEM. It also shows you how to measure speaker SPL and resonance, decay, which is very useful tho.



Could you share a pdf with us my dear friend   Why is is so expensive ? Boy


----------



## wardy

Has anyone ever had any luck finding a 3d scanner that doesn't break the bank? Ive seen a few on the used market but dont want to pull the trigger before asking you guys.
Cheers


----------



## eunice

I have not tried it yet, but this is on my "once I have time..." list: https://blog.prusaprinters.org/photogrammetry-2-3d-scanning-simpler-better-than-ever/


----------



## MuZo2

wardy said:


> Has anyone ever had any luck finding a 3d scanner that doesn't break the bank? Ive seen a few on the used market but dont want to pull the trigger before asking you guys.
> Cheers


https://www.openscan.eu/?lang=en


----------



## wardy

MuZo2 said:


> https://www.openscan.eu/?lang=en



Woah this looks insane, have you personally tried this? 
Cheers


----------



## stephensynanta16

Guys, have u ever tried the knowles sr series? 

How to implement those thing? Just jam it into the shell like a dynamic driver do? Those thing doesnt even has a spout to mount the tube.


----------



## MuZo2 (Sep 13, 2019)

wardy said:


> Woah this looks insane, have you personally tried this?
> Cheers


No I havent, I dont have time to build one right now. Might be a project for sometime later. But they have a facebook group if you want to join. The scan resolution depends on your camera. I think it should be good one for ear mold scanning.
Good thing is now there are cheaper resin 3dprinters which can make the whole process DIY suitable.
Previously the scanner cost around 10 thousand euro and printer was about 20 thousand. So it was only suitable for large labs to invest into it. So previously only UE and others went the digital way. But now I see more and more labs using digital manufacturing. Still there is limitation on colors and design you can use for 3d prints.


----------



## Choy Wei De

Acquired 2 new universal shells. Will update in few weeks time.


----------



## wolkegeist

DannyBouwhuis said:


> Could you share a pdf with us my dear friend   Why is is so expensive ? Boy


Oh yes I have the PDF. You could go to b-ok(dot)xyz to download them for free, if you can’t find them, message me, I’ll gladly send you the PDF copy.


----------



## wolkegeist

Choy Wei De said:


> Acquired 2 new universal shells. Will update in few weeks time.


I have the white one, tbh I don’t like it at all. I have to cut the nozzle and cure my own nozzle from uv resin. I have plan of making mold from clay and then cast to silicon negative mold, for later use. Btw you guys should try Craft Arrange A-B resin, it’s for crafting so no toxic and no funky fume, I’ve just bought 600ml for about 20$.


----------



## Choy Wei De

wolkegeist said:


> I have the white one, tbh I don’t like it at all. I have to cut the nozzle and cure my own nozzle from uv resin. I have plan of making mold from clay and then cast to silicon negative mold, for later use. Btw you guys should try Craft Arrange A-B resin, it’s for crafting so no toxic and no funky fume, I’ve just bought 600ml for about 20$.



Is it the MH335?


----------



## stephensynanta16

Choy Wei De said:


> Acquired 2 new universal shells. Will update in few weeks time.


the purple one is interesting, where can i find em? would u kindly share the link to the store? or is it local shop?


----------



## wolkegeist

Choy Wei De said:


> Is it the MH335?


IDK the name, but here’s the picture


----------



## Choy Wei De

stephensynanta16 said:


> the purple one is interesting, where can i find em? would u kindly share the link to the store? or is it local shop?



It’s from Taobao. He didn’t mention the model on the listing. But this shell is the ‘bigger’ one reference to UM12.

【傅先声音频】https://m.tb.cn/h.eOKGmCd?sm=86e54b 点击链接，再选择浏览器咑閞；或椱ァ製这段描述￥29mRYm4bZkR￥后到◇綯℡寳


----------



## Choy Wei De

wolkegeist said:


> IDK the name, but here’s the picture



I need to start making earphone out of this shell first. Apparently this is QDC8 shell.


----------



## pace88

Choy Wei De said:


> I need to start making earphone out of this shell first. Apparently this is QDC8 shell.





Choy Wei De said:


> Acquired 2 new universal shells. Will update in few weeks time.


can i see the faceplate side bro?


----------



## Choy Wei De

pace88 said:


> can i see the faceplate side bro?



Of cause not 100% the same copy. But what I care about the main body instead.


----------



## pace88

Choy Wei De said:


> Of cause not 100% the same copy. But what I care about the main body instead.


wow for me it's very good bro, i also modified the base shell kz zs3


----------



## Choy Wei De

pace88 said:


> wow for me it's very good bro, i also modified the base shell kz zs3



I don’t have skill to make shells. So I have to order online. At most I’ll buy STL or OBJ files and edit it and 3d print.


----------



## Choy Wei De

I bought this driver quite sometime back from Taobao. Does anyone know what is the green thing on the soldering pad?


----------



## Makahl

Choy Wei De said:


> I bought this driver quite sometime back from Taobao. Does anyone know what is the green thing on the soldering pad?



AFAIK 99% of the time its an enamel coating to
1. Electrically isolate it, and
2. As a visual indicator (many sellers will refuse exchange/return if you've soldered the unit)
You can use nail polish for a similar effect. 1% of the time its just a swipe with a marker just for indicator/looks.


----------



## Choy Wei De

Makahl said:


> AFAIK 99% of the time its an enamel coating to
> 1. Electrically isolate it, and
> 2. As a visual indicator (many sellers will refuse exchange/return if you've soldered the unit)
> You can use nail polish for a similar effect. 1% of the time its just a swipe with a marker just for indicator/looks.



Do I need a special method remove the coating? Or do I just solder over it?


----------



## linkzex

How do you measure impedance of iem?


----------



## eunice

https://www.roomeqwizard.com/help/help_en-GB/html/impedancemeasurement.html


----------



## Xymordos

Choy Wei De said:


> Do I need a special method remove the coating? Or do I just solder over it?



Just solder over it. It's insulating paint or something. Or you can sand it off.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Sep 15, 2019)

Xymordos said:


> Just solder over it. It's insulating paint or something. Or you can sand it off.


That is what I said to him on pm.

By the way...after a long time
@Xymordos


And one more thing.

Note: FED30048 and TinAudio P1 or the 10mm planar sound the same.
The planar just have the planar style super speed bass and rising treble response above 10kHz.

Note: I will be making some set on the name of my friends here. Something like a tribute set like what I did for my Mom (modified @Furco GQ+ RAB)

Starting with @Choy Wei De

GQ30783 + GQ30710(3dB attenuation)(replacing RAB32033 in MASM)

It will be the simplest 4 way crossover design lol

Let's see, how it turns out


----------



## Xymordos

dhruvmeena96 said:


> That is what I said to him on pm.
> 
> By the way...after a long time
> @Xymordos
> ...



I'm always around just don't have time to build any new ones yet


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Xymordos said:


> I'm always around just don't have time to build any new ones yet


Me too...just got some spare time today


----------



## kmmm

Masm 7

Unfortunately there's an air leak in the left BS6 tube
Have to redo the whole thing

The working right shows an interesting curve compared to MASM3 pro.
Whats happening at 13k?


----------



## eunice

Wavelength of 13khz in air is approx 2.6cm. Could that be a resonant frequency of your measurement setup?


----------



## kmmm

eunice said:


> Wavelength of 13khz in air is approx 2.6cm. Could that be a resonant frequency of your measurement setup?


Yes, that could be it. What do you think of the rest of the curve compared to MASM3? (because of the air leak I have no listening test yet)


----------



## eunice (Sep 16, 2019)

kmmm said:


> Yes, that could be it. What do you think of the rest of the curve compared to MASM3? (because of the air leak I have no listening test yet)


Hard to tell. You have quite a roll off in bass on both graphs. That doesnt show in my measurements of MASM3 and BS6 should have  plenty of bass too, so the rolloff is probably related to your setup. Other than that, MASM 7 seems slight V shaped compared to MASM 3, but not too V shaped. So hard to tell exactly how that would sound, MASM 7 is probably closer to harman target.


----------



## kmmm

eunice said:


> Hard to tell. You have quite a roll off in bass on both graphs. That doesnt show in my measurements of MASM3 and BS6 should have  plenty of bass too, so the rolloff is probably related to your setup. Other than that, MASM 7 seems slight V shaped compared to MASM 3, but not too V shaped. So hard to tell exactly how that would sound, MASM 7 is probably closer to harman target.


You are right. The coupler I used is probably to deep (about 2-3cm) It was just something I made up in les then a minute to check what was going on with the broken item. What do you use as a coupler? what's the distance from the CIEM to the mic?


----------



## kmmm

kmmm said:


> You are right. The coupler I used is probably to deep (about 2-3cm) It was just something I made up in les then a minute to check what was going on with the broken item. What do you use as a coupler? what's the distance from the CIEM to the mic?






eunice said:


> My measuring setup: I use miniDSP UMIK-1 microphone, it fits perfectly into 12mm ID PVC tube from a garden shop. Calculated the length of the tube for 2ccm volume. Then I let a friend 3D print a cap with conical holes for the tubes.
> 
> Works like a charm. I use roomeqwizard (mac user here )
> 
> Other mics work well too.



What was the length?


----------



## eunice

kmmm said:


> What was the length?


I calculated the length to be ~17mm to achieve 2ccm volume in a tube of 12mm diameter. But I measure at different length (say 14mm, 17mm and 20mm) to see the difference in my measurements.

I can couple tubes quite well with a 3d printed adapter, but when I measure finished CIEMs with blue tack my graphs look pretty much like yours. 

How the pros are able to measure finished CIEMs is still a mystery to me.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

kmmm said:


> Masm 7
> 
> Unfortunately there's an air leak in the left BS6 tube
> Have to redo the whole thing
> ...


the issue is mic, its tube, sealing and its calibration

yup, MASM7 follows Harman Target kinda, but is not as flat as 100Hz to 1.1kHz AKG N5005.

MASM 3 Pro beats everything on treble range.


New Series Incoming
based on same DNA as MASM

Evoluzione(open for DIY)

still in testing period


----------



## Choy Wei De

I got this CI30120 driver, does any one know which is which polarity?


----------



## stephensynanta16

Have anyone tried integrating the tube into the 3d printed shell design? Will different tube material (resin) have a siginificant effect to the sound?

i wonder if resin will affect the sound significantly.


----------



## stephensynanta16

Choy Wei De said:


> I got this CI30120 driver, does any one know which is which polarity?


it looks similar to CI-22955, on the 22955, according to the manual, the one closest to the side is negative, the one furthest from the side is positive, the center one is center tap, dunno what center tap is, imma newbie.

[___[+] [c] [-]_]


----------



## Xymordos

Choy Wei De said:


> I got this CI30120 driver, does any one know which is which polarity?



Pretty sure the solder pad closer to the edge is negative


----------



## Choy Wei De

stephensynanta16 said:


> it looks similar to CI-22955, on the 22955, according to the manual, the one closest to the side is negative, the one furthest from the side is positive, the center one is center tap, dunno what center tap is, imma newbie.
> 
> [___[+] [c] [-]_]





Xymordos said:


> Pretty sure the solder pad closer to the edge is negative



Thanks everyone


----------



## wardy

I've got a few questions, I'm starting to really get into this and shell building is coming along nicely however I have a couple of questions 

1) How on Earth do you get opaque shells wanting to get a solid white (this is just for faceplates btw 

2) Can anyone EU / UK based recommend me any dyes as the ones used by most people on here are really hard to get / would have to wait ages

3) What are you guys using for  Freq response test 

Thanks so much


----------



## eunice

wardy said:


> I've got a few questions, I'm starting to really get into this and shell building is coming along nicely however I have a couple of questions
> 
> 1) How on Earth do you get opaque shells wanting to get a solid white (this is just for faceplates btw
> 
> ...


1) Pro3dure has beautiful white resin.  
2) no idea on dyes. But McEar.de has the white pro3dure and other colors. 
3) search this thread for 2cc coupler. I use minidsp umik and RoomEqWizard


----------



## stephensynanta16 (Sep 18, 2019)

Just've finished printed the resin shell, the damper mount & 7mm of the tubing is integrated in the shell design, the rest will be regular tubing.

Yes it looks rough & sketchy, even i wonder if it'll work or if it'll sound different because of different tubing material.


----------



## Choy Wei De

stephensynanta16 said:


> Just've finished printed the resin shell, the damper mount & 7mm of the tubing is integrated in the shell design, the rest will be regular tubing.
> 
> Yes it looks rough & sketchy, even i wonder if it'll work or if it'll sound different because of different tubing material.



Personally I think the material of the tube matters. But not sure will it be noticeable enough.

I think the best way to test is to print a short tube and compare with normal tube, e.g a 15mm of 2.0mm ID tube. Or if you really want, build a simple single driver like RAB/RAF, ED using resin printing.


----------



## stephensynanta16 (Sep 18, 2019)

Choy Wei De said:


> Personally I think the material of the tube matters. But not sure will it be noticeable enough.
> 
> I think the best way to test is to print a short tube and compare with normal tube, e.g a 15mm of 2.0mm ID tube. Or if you really want, build a simple single driver like RAB/RAF, ED using resin printing.


Do u had the schematic for single driver RAB or ED? it might be interesting to build 3 pair of them, full resin printed tube, half resin half tube, full regular tube.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

dhruvmeena96 said:


> You were counting...
> OK I will make a wiki soon


Extremely sorry
Family and work issues

Do make a wiki

MASM has officially ended


----------



## wardy

Started getting better at shells... Thanks for all the help everyone Just need to work on getting the insides perfect


----------



## pace88

wardy said:


> Started getting better at shells... Thanks for all the help everyone Just need to work on getting the insides perfect



Great ^_^v


----------



## Choy Wei De

stephensynanta16 said:


> Do u had the schematic for single driver RAB or ED? it might be interesting to build 3 pair of them, full resin printed tube, half resin half tube, full regular tube.



Here



Lucas Taboada said:


> Hi, this is what I have in my notes, but I don't know if its the final version, I'm a bit confused too
> 
> RAB-P
> Resonator(shifted near horn, for less tube effect)
> ...


----------



## alanwcruz

Got myself and Elegoo Mars and made a cap for the BS6, end spout just big enough to squeeze in the damper.


----------



## stephensynanta16

alanwcruz said:


> Got myself and Elegoo Mars and made a cap for the BS6, end spout just big enough to squeeze in the damper.


wow, it's nice. what kind of damper did u use? since it's only one damper and its very close to the driver.


----------



## eunice

alanwcruz said:


> Got myself and Elegoo Mars and made a cap for the BS6, end spout just big enough to squeeze in the damper.


Would you mind sharing the STL and/or your cad project ?


----------



## alanwcruz (Sep 24, 2019)

stephensynanta16 said:


> wow, it's nice. what kind of damper did u use? since it's only one damper and its very close to the driver.



I'm building MASM7, but my small ears made it hard to connect its 3 tubes in a small space so this was the solution I came up with, it's a green damper.



eunice said:


> Would you mind sharing the STL and/or your cad project ?



Sure, no problem. Here they are. Also made a RAB-p horn.

Hmmm... having trouble getting the zip file to appear

Here it is: STL files


----------



## eunice

alanwcruz said:


> Here it is: STL files


Thank you. Next drink is on me


----------



## Talaka

Hello Everyone, 

after doing some more research, I have finally finished a list of all the ingredients needed for my Finale 2 build (similar to @fredcrys list).  During the process I came up with some more questions though:


1) Does the resistor design really matter ? At some point @dhruvmeena96 wrote that wire wound resistor have the blackest background, but maybe it´s better to get like 100 resistors from aliexpress so you can match a perfect pair ? 

2) How much resin is needed for a pair of CIEMs, including faceplates ? I would prefer to order resin whenever I want to build something, instead of just having a bunch standing around. 

3) Do you guys have any thoughts on 2 Pin vs. MMCX ? I read that the MMCX sometimes have connection problems, while the 2 Pins are prone to bending, any other thoughts ?

4) Are wax guards something to consider ? As far as I can tell from the pictures, some people use them, some don´t.  Do they alter the sound quality ? Should the sound tubing be shortened accordingly ? 

5) And finally, does someone have the FR of BS6Z and Finale 2 ? Didn´t find them so far, but maybe I´m also just blind. Any comparison to other (universal) IEMs would be appreciated too. 


PS: Is there any point in documenting my building process and maybe writing a detailed guide?


----------



## eunice (Sep 24, 2019)

Talaka said:


> 1) Does the resistor design really matter ? At some point @dhruvmeena96 wrote that wire wound resistor have the blackest background, but maybe it´s better to get like 100 resistors from aliexpress so you can match a perfect pair ?




I was not able to hear the difference. Resistors are readily available in 1%, I cannot hear a difference. Ceramic caps are different, you can get them in 10% and the cheap ones often are worse than 10% off. So measuring and matching pairs makes sese.



Talaka said:


> 2) How much resin is needed for a pair of CIEMs, including faceplates ? I would prefer to order resin whenever I want to build something, instead of just having a bunch standing around.



The problem is you need more resin to fill up the impression, then you pour back most of it. Using a 30g bottle I can do ~8 pairs. But using a 10g bottle I wasn't even able do one pair for my ears because it wouldn't fill up the impressions.



Talaka said:


> 3) Do you guys have any thoughts on 2 Pin vs. MMCX ? I read that the MMCX sometimes have connection problems, while the 2 Pins are prone to bending, any other thoughts ?


I only used MMCX so far.



Talaka said:


> 4) Are wax guards something to consider ? As far as I can tell from the pictures, some people use them, some don´t.  Do they alter the sound quality ? Should the sound tubing be shortened accordingly ?


I tried, I don't use them, they are too big and cumbersome for my taste, especially for dual bore designs they are not really practical. I use dampers at the tip, doubles as a wax guard anyway.



Talaka said:


> 5) And finally, does someone have the FR of BS6Z and Finale 2 ? Didn´t find them so far, but maybe I´m also just blind. Any comparison to other (universal) IEMs would be appreciated too.




 

Dont know how accurate they are, I think the finale 2 measurement has problems.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Sep 24, 2019)

Talaka said:


> Hello Everyone,
> 
> after doing some more research, I have finally finished a list of all the ingredients needed for my Finale 2 build (similar to @fredcrys list).  During the process I came up with some more questions though:
> 
> ...


Precision Wirewound and Metal foil comes at very low tolerances. Wirewound seems to act like a micro inductor in series. You can check that out if you zoom the FR enough on the peak.

Well the difference is negligible in wirewound and metal foil, but carbon resistor might be a different story.

Carbon resistor are poor in impedance charts, tolerances and almost everything. That can add certain artifacts to sound.


Most difference is in capacitors though.


I mentioned resistor tuning as a very slight fine tuning method when used with capacitors


----------



## dhruvmeena96

alanwcruz said:


> Got myself and Elegoo Mars and made a cap for the BS6, end spout just big enough to squeeze in the damper.


That STL is such a big contribution...it saved me a lot of time stretching and adapting the tubes around three spout..

Thanks bro...


----------



## mattmatt

Hi guys, 

Just want to ask about resins. I have a slight confusion. 

Will a 385nm resin cure with 405nm light? I have a 3D printer that have a 405nm light but most resins I like are 385nm. AFAIK, 385nm resin will cure with 405nm light but 405nm resin won't with 385nm light.


----------



## ForceMajeure

mattmatt said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Just want to ask about resins. I have a slight confusion.
> 
> Will a 385nm resin cure with 405nm light? I have a 3D printer that have a 405nm light but most resins I like are 385nm. AFAIK, 385nm resin will cure with 405nm light but 405nm resin won't with 385nm light.


Yes it will probably cure. you'd have to adjust exposure time maybe.


----------



## wolkegeist

Anyone has experience building shell with A-B resin? I already has the impression, but idk how to use the AB resin tho. Do they need special curing time? Please I need help


----------



## Choy Wei De

My friend somehow many to open my earphone within 2 weeks of usage? I was using nail polish top coat as glue.



Has anyone tried using this epoxy glue from AliExpress?


----------



## eunice

wolkegeist said:


> Anyone has experience building shell with A-B resin? I already has the impression, but idk how to use the AB resin tho. Do they need special curing time? Please I need help


AB resin does not cure via UV. I don’t think it will work as you will get a solid shell and not just thin walls. 
Also please only use resin rated for skin contact, your inner ear is very sensitive.


----------



## eunice

Choy Wei De said:


> My friend somehow many to open my earphone within 2 weeks of usage? I was using nail polish top coat as glue.
> Has anyone tried using this epoxy glue from AliExpress.


I tried many different glues and had the same problem. Either the glue released a white powdery substance (most super glued do that) or it was not strong enough. 

I have great success with UHU two component epoxy glue. I did not try the Ali glue you posted but I think it’s worth a shot. Things to look out for is the curing time (UHU is 5 minutes) and the resulting color. (UHU is transparent with an ever so slight yellow tint) Since epoxy glue is thicker than super glue you can see a small layer of epoxy from the side, so it’s important that it’s clear.


----------



## Ivan TT

Has anyone tried smaller dampers, I see soundlink has a variety of them?

I’m still working out how to get 3 tubes into the nozzle of a universal shell, those I have can fit up to 3 1mm ID tubes (just), so I guess I can simply run tubing all the way from drivers spouts, but not sure which dampers to buy and how to place them right...

Also not sure if smaller ID will have an effect on FR (I guess it should), so would dampers resistances stay the same or need to be adjusted for narrower tubing?

Any wisdom/experience to share please?


----------



## wolkegeist

eunice said:


> AB resin does not cure via UV. I don’t think it will work as you will get a solid shell and not just thin walls.
> Also please only use resin rated for skin contact, your inner ear is very sensitive.


I saw a video on youtube of a guy making shell with A-B resin, but it’s in German and auto translate doesn’t really help tho. I used craft-grade resin so it’s pretty skin safe. I have plan on making a negative mold to put inside when curing, so it’s just the wall having resin and the center doesn’t. Probably that’s how to do it. But the german guy just use timing and not actually make any inside mold. Like he wait till the wall is cure and then drill it out and wash off the inside of the shell. Idk how long does it take tho. Probably gonna have to try for myself.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

wolkegeist said:


> I saw a video on youtube of a guy making shell with A-B resin, but it’s in German and auto translate doesn’t really help tho. I used craft-grade resin so it’s pretty skin safe. I have plan on making a negative mold to put inside when curing, so it’s just the wall having resin and the center doesn’t. Probably that’s how to do it. But the german guy just use timing and not actually make any inside mold. Like he wait till the wall is cure and then drill it out and wash off the inside of the shell. Idk how long does it take tho. Probably gonna have to try for myself.


And @eunice comes to the rescue

He is from Germany

He will explain us all word to word

LoL


Well, nowadays I am working on damper system(triple stage damping)

Will update when I get a proper result


----------



## mattmatt

ForceMajeure said:


> Yes it will probably cure. you'd have to adjust exposure time maybe.


Thank you so much. 

Anyway, just a question regarding tubing:

FreqPhase has a super long tubing for it's tweeter to fix the acoustic phase right? I'm kind of confused since the speed of sound is constant, but wavelength isn't. The higher the frequency, the shorter the wavelength but how does it affect the speed of higher frequencies?


----------



## eunice (Sep 30, 2019)

mattmatt said:


> FreqPhase has a super long tubing for it's tweeter to fix the acoustic phase right? I'm kind of confused since the speed of sound is constant, but wavelength isn't. The higher the frequency, the shorter the wavelength but how does it affect the speed of higher frequencies?


Assuming you have two waves of different frequencies in the exact same phase exiting the driver spout and the tube is 2cm long. Both waves propagate at roughly the same speed and so both waves will exit the tube at the same time.

But in the amount of time that has passed while both are traveling through the tube (which is the same for both frequencies), the higher frequency will have done more oscillations. So at the exit of the tube, both might be out of phase, although they arrive at the exact same time.


Imagine this:

/^\_/^\_/^\
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

Same length of tube, same time for traveling, but the second (higher) frequency exits the tube at high pressure while the first (lower) frequency exits at low pressure.

If you make one tube longer:


/^\_/^\_/^\
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\

Both frequencies are in phase, but no longer arrive at the same time.

Hope that adds to your confusion


----------



## Xymordos

Hmm was designing a new 6 driver design based on my previous 4 driver design and made one that's pretty much flat. Sounds slightly warm but otherwise... very flat too.



Spoiler: Frequency Response


----------



## Xymordos

Thought this might be interesting for you guys - the Chinese forums tested the THD of three IEMS- UM Mirage, Mentor, and Beyerdynamic Xelento. Turns out the dynamic Xelento has way less distortion than the BA IEMs.  The fully open mid-range driver on the Mirage has higher distortion than the stacked mids drivers on the Mentor. The 4x high driver on the Mentor seems to give it really low distortion compared to the 1 driver Mirage.






UM Mentor V3: 12BA, 4-way, 4 lows, 2 low-mids, 2 mid-highs, 4 highs, 5-bore (ends with a metal tube) with 1 bore for dB-Go module. 
UM Mirage: 3D printed titanium shell, 3BA, 3-way, 1 low, 1 fully open mid, 1 high.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Xymordos said:


> Thought this might be interesting for you guys - the Chinese forums tested the THD of three IEMS- UM Mirage, Mentor, and Beyerdynamic Xelento. Turns out the dynamic Xelento has way less distortion than the BA IEMs.  The fully open mid-range driver on the Mirage has higher distortion than the stacked mids drivers on the Mentor. The 4x high driver on the Mentor seems to give it really low distortion compared to the 1 driver Mirage.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


BA distorts more

i have been working on this method for a while to reduce BA distortion

A BA enclosure is made of High magnetic permeability Metal alloy(80Ni15Fe5Mo), which permeates good but has issue on magnetic saturation, this leads to magnetic flux leak and less accurate motor movement,

Beyer Tesla driver has 1.5Tesla magnetic force for round motor, which means they try to trap and direct magnetic flux mostly to coil. Plus in round speaker, magnet surround the coil properly, which can lead to highly accurate motor movement, leading to less distortion

for knowledge, Sennhieser IE80S magnet is 0.14Tesla


----------



## Xymordos

dhruvmeena96 said:


> BA distorts more
> 
> i have been working on this method for a while to reduce BA distortion
> 
> ...



Interesting, is stacking drivers the easiest way to reduce distortion? 

By the way, I used some Chinese drivers (not Bellsing, not sure what the actual name of the company is actually...) in the new design and they did sound quite good. One was the Chinese SWFK31736 and another they called the dual ED29689, but to me the drivers look more like the Sonion 2389D.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Xymordos said:


> Interesting, is stacking drivers the easiest way to reduce distortion?
> 
> By the way, I used some Chinese drivers (not Bellsing, not sure what the actual name of the company is actually...) in the new design and they did sound quite good. One was the Chinese SWFK31736 and another they called the dual ED29689, but to me the drivers look more like the Sonion 2389D.


Stacking driver is best way to reduce distortion. Or shielding BA with steel tape.(stacking drivers in series parallel is best though).

Dont know about SWFK, but that ED was Sonion 2389D. That dual ED needs a good 25ohm resistor and a green + grey damping to sound slightly aggressive ED.


----------



## Ivan TT

Xymordos said:


> By the way, I used some Chinese drivers (not Bellsing, not sure what the actual name of the company is actually...) in the new design and they did sound quite good. One was the Chinese SWFK31736 and another they called the dual ED29689, but to me the drivers look more like the Sonion 2389D.


I was just reading your post from way back when you mentioned you have them...
Is it the same outfit that makes dual RAB, single spout?
https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=569062783217


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Ivan TT said:


> I was just reading your post from way back when you mentioned you have them...
> Is it the same outfit that makes dual RAB, single spout?
> https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=569062783217


What

lol.......Rofl

let me try getting these drivers


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Xymordos said:


> Thought this might be interesting for you guys - the Chinese forums tested the THD of three IEMS- UM Mirage, Mentor, and Beyerdynamic Xelento. Turns out the dynamic Xelento has way less distortion than the BA IEMs.  The fully open mid-range driver on the Mirage has higher distortion than the stacked mids drivers on the Mentor. The 4x high driver on the Mentor seems to give it really low distortion compared to the 1 driver Mirage.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


if you remember your Quad RAB on midrange (i guess its yours)

BK + Quad RAB32063 + SWFK

the Quad RAB worked on 1kHz distortion, which gives the driver the effortless feeling

and 1kHz is the hardest point for distortion and the point at which ear is the most sensitive


----------



## Xymordos

Ivan TT said:


> I was just reading your post from way back when you mentioned you have them...
> Is it the same outfit that makes dual RAB, single spout?
> https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=569062783217



Yup its that one! They released a dual ED29689 which looks more like a dual 2389. Sounds pretty nice. Drivers are matched perfectly too.


----------



## Xymordos

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Stacking driver is best way to reduce distortion. Or shielding BA with steel tape.(stacking drivers in series parallel is best though).
> 
> Dont know about SWFK, but that ED was Sonion 2389D. That dual ED needs a good 25ohm resistor and a green + grey damping to sound slightly aggressive ED.



I shielded mine with copper/aluminium tape sometimes. Didn't actually think it'll have an effect on sound! The Chinese drivers sounds pretty good - maybe better than ED. They seem softer and smoother.


----------



## Xymordos

dhruvmeena96 said:


> if you remember your Quad RAB on midrange (i guess its yours)
> 
> BK + Quad RAB32063 + SWFK
> 
> ...



Yeah they sounded really good - I haven't sealed them up to finish them yet though  But it seems that BA bass is hugely distorting.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

@Xymordos 
@Choy Wei De 
The 1audio driver has 3 driver with number name of 32257

EB-32257 -> RAB32257
PEB-32257 -> extended coil stronger magnet RAB32257 limited to perform as stock(lesser distortion RAB)
DEB-32257 -> Dual RAB32257 single spout


----------



## tomekk

Xymordos said:


> Yup its that one! They released a dual ED29689 which looks more like a dual 2389. Sounds pretty nice. Drivers are matched perfectly too.



Dual parallel RAB looks and sounds pretty similar to Sonion 2800 series.


----------



## tomekk

tomekk said:


> Dual parallel RAB looks and sounds pretty similar to Sonion 2800 series.



Edit:

Welcome back Bellsing. \m/


----------



## Choy Wei De

dhruvmeena96 said:


> @Xymordos
> @Choy Wei De
> The 1audio driver has 3 driver with number name of 32257
> 
> ...



I’m very addicted to Zobel. I think I can’t do anything without Zobel. Haha.


----------



## Ivan TT (Oct 4, 2019)

On a whim removed spouts from dual RAF set up (drivers are glued up together and inserted in stretched 3mm ID tubing terminating in 2mm ID one).

Very positive impressions so far, better HF extension (almost but not entirely TWFK level) and less of annoying harsh upper minds/low highs resonance that I usually tamed with dampers.

Better slam too 

I anticipate being able to use dampers with lower resistance (currently 2 white in series) giving even better HF extension without harshness.

In a week’s time I will be able to measure this set up and plan to do spoutless x4 RAB


----------



## Choy Wei De

Has anyone tried any of the 1audio drivers? I don’t mind trying if more people has positive results using it.


----------



## pace88

tomekk said:


> Edit:
> 
> Welcome back Bellsing. \m/


has their dispute ended?


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Oct 4, 2019)

Ordered the 1audio PEB-32257(single driver with big cavity, the Pro RAB).

The spec sheet looks promising too

As the specs are same as normal RAB but it has more bass boost and faster bass due to bigger air cavity at back followed by a hidden vent


----------



## Choy Wei De

Anyone has a budget build for dual BA? Like CI+ED or CI+WBFK?


----------



## SupperTime

hello guys, new avid DIYer here, started my own inner iem experimentations and got the inner works done the way i like it no just need to work on how the outside of the iem works and looks

i bought these off amazon as they had the shape i liked, they are made of alluminum, how do i wipe those letters off the alluminum body without destroying or discoloring the metal.
_i worked hard on these iems and i am proud of them,nothing special biut worked with my son on them for quite the hrs

please help
_DAve


https://imgur.com/dEFA71k


----------



## dhruvmeena96

SupperTime said:


> hello guys, new avid DIYer here, started my own inner iem experimentations and got the inner works done the way i like it no just need to work on how the outside of the iem works and looks
> 
> i bought these off amazon as they had the shape i liked, they are made of alluminum, how do i wipe those letters off the alluminum body without destroying or discoloring the metal.
> _i worked hard on these iems and i am proud of them,nothing special biut worked with my son on them for quite the hrs
> ...


I think that would be impossible on CCA...I think its mass laser engraved...

You can sand paper the whole surface, and then Polish..

But if you want better suggestion, go get it done new in metal workshop, because I think these would be thin metal faceplate by stock


----------



## eunice

Choy Wei De said:


> Anyone has a budget build for dual BA? Like CI+ED or CI+WBFK?


@Ivan TT Has some good dual RAB/RAF variations a few pages back.


----------



## eunice

SupperTime said:


> how do i wipe those letters off the alluminum body without destroying or discoloring the metal.


I think you will have to sand it off, as it might be engraved or anodized. 
After sanding, you will need to restore the surface finish  I can’t give you the exact formula, but first sanding with increasing grit and then using a polishing compound like Brasso might work. I have no personal experience, so look around on the internet on how to correctly polish aluminum.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

eunice said:


> @Ivan TT Has some good dual RAB/RAF variations a few pages back.


He wants to actually ask for @piotrus-g CI-30120 and WBFK30095

And a good CI22955 and ED29689 build

I think he already did dual RAB


----------



## SupremusDoofus

dhruvmeena96 said:


> He wants to actually ask for @piotrus-g CI-30120 and WBFK30095
> 
> And a good CI22955 and ED29689 build
> 
> I think he already did dual RAB


Can you tell me the zobel for ed29689. Is it a 20ohm resistor or 10ohm?


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Oct 6, 2019)

SupremusDoofus said:


> Can you tell me the zobel for ed29689. Is it a 20ohm resistor or 10ohm?


Use 20uF cap with 9ohm resistor/10ohm resistor...


A small notch at 3.4kHz and dip at 5kHz .....but very straight line.


Adding a series resistor after the zobel will make impedance ratio super flat


Using in ER4 zobel


----------



## SupremusDoofus

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Adding a series resistor after the zobel will make impedance ratio super flat


Can you please elaborate on this?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

SupremusDoofus said:


> Can you please elaborate on this?


Driver -> zobel -> resistor -> mmcx

If you want to make ER4 clone


----------



## Choy Wei De

dhruvmeena96 said:


> He wants to actually ask for @piotrus-g CI-30120 and WBFK30095
> 
> And a good CI22955 and ED29689 build
> 
> I think he already did dual RAB



I have not build dual RAB yet. Still have not master tube stretching yet.


----------



## Ivan TT

Choy Wei De said:


> I have not build dual RAB yet. Still have not master tube stretching yet.


Give it a go, practicing on RAF series + zobel maybe? Then moving onto dual RABs.
For the price it is an amazing sounding recipe, especially with spouts removed.


----------



## Choy Wei De

Ivan TT said:


> Give it a go, practicing on RAF series + zobel maybe? Then moving onto dual RABs.
> For the price it is an amazing sounding recipe, especially with spouts removed.



Do you have the tube measurements and electronic components?


----------



## SupremusDoofus

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Driver -> zobel -> resistor -> mmcx
> 
> If you want to make ER4 clone



so its gonna look something like this: ?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

SupremusDoofus said:


> so its gonna look something like this: ?


Yahhh....

Always try to keep capacitor on positive... Many people on other forums have reported electrical losses..

That's the only issue with putting resistor first, capacitor after that. They report that, in Zobel also, if not followed in order, the capacitor tends to add sound tone... Another engineer quoted that it was electrical loss and nothing like adding tone..

I still did not see any difference on BA and headphone dynamics drivers, but there was a significant difference in sound with loudspeaker in treble region(front and back loaded horn speaker diy)

Treble seemed damped.

One guy gave me example, that in ideal conditions, this doesn't happen and small driver like BA dont suck so much volt or ampere, so capacitor ESR and tolerance error doesn't effect that much.
In speaker, those small % error becomes huge and resistor electrical loss parameters comes into play due to Musical signal or Rapid changing signal(we call it breakdown)

If C is used first, you make the resistor get less load...

In ideal situation or less voltage situation, it doesnt do anything but better follow conventional method.

And conventional method also have an issue

Its ESR and ESL
Keep them in minimum..


losses due to ESR will inhibit a capacitor’s ability to quickly source or sink charge. At the input, increasing ESR increases high frequency noise across the capacitor, decreasing filtering effectiveness. At the output, higher ESR causes more ripple, influencing stability of the control loop.
ESR is particularly important in applications with low duty-cycle, high-frequency current pulses.

the ripple voltage due to the ESR will be greater than expected based on capacitance alone, although the negative correlation of ESR


So that means, if a High ESR is used, first of all, the zobel is wrong. Secondly its impedance will behave randomly (even though still flat) according to the music.



Tested it in labs here

Will post observations when I go to my old office


----------



## dhruvmeena96

SupremusDoofus said:


> so its gonna look something like this: ?


It is right by the way


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Can anybody make the STL file for this..

RAB-p tube structure

Dont want to adjust tube till I get perfection.... Its an hassle


And I dont know how to do 3D properly...I used to get it done by a friend who recently left the office and is now way too far away and way too much busy


----------



## SupperTime

What about this meze earphone? 

http://imgur.com/gallery/l5U4rrR

I also like that body shape and building another iem inside that shape, this is not engraved, it's like it's painted on it or even another material, very thin, what chamical would wipe this off?
Thanks
_Dave


----------



## dhruvmeena96

SupperTime said:


> What about this meze earphone?
> 
> http://imgur.com/gallery/l5U4rrR
> 
> ...


Why dont you buy custom shell from aliexpress or Taobao....that's gonna fare you better

Shell(metal and mmcx)
https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/5FTSDRRK

Cable
https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/KM31SXxE

Drivers
https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/dYQURHmg

And the tubing structure is on my previous post....
Damper is brown

Dont start disassembling already made earphones...it won't be pocket friendly.

If you want to experiment and want shell which costs less and is easy to work with....just tell us....we all will get you the links and everything.


----------



## SupperTime

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Why dont you buy custom shell from aliexpress or Taobao....that's gonna fare you better
> 
> Shell(metal and mmcx)
> https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/5FTSDRRK
> ...




I appreciate you guys, I didn't know how awesome you guys really are. 
Well the links provided allready helped out ordered some. 
However since I destroyed these. Meze headphones I'd still like to. Experiment further and wipe that logo off. 
How do I wipe the logo off the aluminum body, what chemical?


----------



## pace88

SupperTime said:


> I appreciate you guys, I didn't know how awesome you guys really are.
> Well the links provided allready helped out ordered some.
> However since I destroyed these. Meze headphones I'd still like to. Experiment further and wipe that logo off.
> How do I wipe the logo off the aluminum body, what chemical?


Is the logo engraved with laser?


----------



## stephensynanta16 (Oct 7, 2019)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Can anybody make the STL file for this..
> 
> RAB-p tube structure
> 
> ...


I'll try to take on the quest,

u want it straight? or do u want some bend on the tubing?
u want me to smooth the inner edges of the tube? or just make it as it is?
how thick is wall of the tube?

btw, here's the universal nozzle with integrated tubing & BA mount for MASM 7, i've just made recently, haven't tested it yet.

Made it according to the spec found in this thread,
about 20mm ID 2mm for Bellsing 10013
about 16mm ID 2mm for RAB/RAF
the tubing length might have an error of 0,2 to 0,4mm because of the bend
u can put the filter at the end of the tube as usual(might need a little extra push)
The BA mount should fit with a little room for wiggle, the nozzle might be on the bigger side, 6mm diameter.

U can also use this for BZ6, just plug the RAB hole

SLA printing recomended







And here's the STL if anyone want to try
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1nQTlUpnintGY-TW68qLvotfhfXO7-9gC

NOTES: this is not a correct model of MASM7, will revise and post a new one in a few days. Can still be used as BZ6, plug the third hole


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Oct 7, 2019)

stephensynanta16 said:


> I'll try to take on the quest,
> 
> u want it straight? or do u want some bend on the tubing?
> u want me to smooth the inner edges of the tube? or just make it as it is?
> ...


Dammmm bro...
That STL rocks


Thickness of outer wall is your choice...
Somebody might need it till the last 2mm/2.5mm part as they are using universal shells.

And you can smoothen down the inner edges...that will help in reducing diffraction losses and artifacts..

Man, you made the MASM 7 shine. 

Error are tolerated till its not crossing over 1.2mm lenght




OK.....I checked it

Why are there three bores.

That might make tuning harder, even though flexible

I used BS6 as independent fullrange


----------



## stephensynanta16

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Dammmm bro...
> That STL rocks
> 
> 
> ...


Why 3 Bore? Uhh, because i knew nothing . 

Flipping trough this thread, i found someone said to make MASM7, add RAB with the same tubing found on MASM

Seriously, im really new here, the only experiment i've made is BZ6 with half of the tube made into the 3d printed resin shell, exactly follows the tubing schematic


----------



## SupperTime

pace88 said:


> Is the logo engraved with laser?


It is not, it's really just *painted * on there, or another material /paint on there...


----------



## dhruvmeena96

stephensynanta16 said:


> Why 3 Bore? Uhh, because i knew nothing .
> 
> Flipping trough this thread, i found someone said to make MASM7, add RAB with the same tubing found on MASM
> 
> Seriously, im really new here, the only experiment i've made is BZ6 with half of the tube made into the 3d printed resin shell, exactly follows the tubing schematic


OK

Lemme make you understand about MASM 7

BS6 all three spout has to be terminated into one tube which is double damped

Brown near spout, white on center

RAB runs damperless

Which makes it two bore
But still appreciated for your hard work..

For those who have not tried it...
By the way, MASM 7 dynamic levels and Harmonic impression are flagship level...just cannot take it out of my ear.

But still cannot take on the treble resolution of Orignal MASM 3 pro.
The MASM3 pro treble is on different scale altogether for me.


----------



## stephensynanta16

@dhruvmeena96 is this good enough? the wall is varied between 0,8 and 0,6mm to make sure it retains rigidity after i smooth the inside, but the inner diameter is made according to ur spec







Link here:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1hiBUj7h5wqQBR1TA0NXxqNEblvdRmC5h


----------



## stephensynanta16 (Oct 7, 2019)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> OK
> 
> Lemme make you understand about MASM 7
> 
> ...


Dang, i need to rework the model 



dhruvmeena96 said:


> BS6 all three spout has to be terminated into one tube which is double damped



What's the length of the tube for BS6? is it the same as usual? 20mm?


----------



## pace88

SupperTime said:


> It is not, it's really just *painted * on there, or another material /paint on there...


You can try rubbing the marking with thinner


----------



## pace88

woalaaaahh just completed 4ba


----------



## eunice

what a nice craftsmanship, it looks really nice. How did you do the spout?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

stephensynanta16 said:


> @dhruvmeena96 is this good enough? the wall is varied between 0,8 and 0,6mm to make sure it retains rigidity after i smooth the inside, but the inner diameter is made according to ur spec
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Man....
Thanks a lot

I can see the edges being smoothened out.
How can I repay such a huge favour.
You made my life easier...now I dont have to put tubes inside tubes


----------



## stephensynanta16 (Oct 7, 2019)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Man....
> Thanks a lot
> 
> I can see the edges being smoothened out.
> ...


It's me instead, who should contribute something back, to you and everyone in this thread, i'm really grateful for the knowledge you and everyone shared in this thread

Be sure to contact me again if you need something, i'll try my best.


----------



## homerograco (Oct 8, 2019)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Man....
> Thanks a lot
> 
> I can see the edges being smoothened out.
> ...



May I ask why the multiple diameter / tube length changes? I am new to this, but just finished a 3D printed tubeless build using the ED29689 and want to learn more about the acoustics going on here.

EDIT: I started a "DIY etymotic" project on my own, posted about it on reddit, and learned about this thread only 2 days ago. I hope to contribute and share some crazy ideas


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Oct 8, 2019)

homerograco said:


> May I ask why the multiple diameter / tube length changes? I am new to this, but just finished a 3D printed tubeless build using the ED29689 and want to learn more about the acoustics going on here.
> 
> EDIT: I started a "DIY etymotic" project on my own, posted about it on reddit, and learned about this thread only 2 days ago. I hope to contribute and share some crazy ideas


Tubeless build??
I am not getting a clear idea
If you mean the shell, and placing driver...

Nice..

Well the first shift of diameter from 1.2mm to 2mm makes a very slight low pass

A. Low pass resonator
B. Resonant damper
C. High pass 
D. Helmholtz resonator





Secondly

It reduces the air pressure hitting ear drum







And smoothens out the sound profile of treble..(micropeak damping

After that is a gradual increase of diameter to have stepped horn, so I can have some increase of High frequency as RAB has steep roll off after 8kHz~10kHz.

Damper goes in horn, and it damps the midrange peak at 3kHz, damps tube resonance, horn resonance and ear resonance.

Brown for neutral bassy, white for brighter profile


Zobel is needed in this setup to compensate the variable diameter tube acoustic impedance shift.



First of all, the series low pass resonator of such a small size doesnt effect FR in huge manner..it is for very fine tuning on soundstage

@Choy Wei De will explain how it effects the soundstage..

Bigger resonator makes sound take some distance, mid bass thinner and subbass rumble.

We both tuned it in such a way, that we can have desired decay in bass and good treble extension..


----------



## stephensynanta16

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Tubeless build??
> I am not getting a clear idea
> If you mean the shell, and placing driver...
> 
> ...


what kind of software is that?


----------



## homerograco

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Tubeless build??
> I am not getting a clear idea
> If you mean the shell, and placing driver...
> 
> Nice..



I 3D printed the shell and nozzle, and attached the driver directly to the nozzle with a tube ring. I placed a green damper right in front of the driver, and made the nozzle a continuous horn of about 10mm after it. My idea was to have a smooth loading and increase high frequency response, and to my ears it is doing it well.




dhruvmeena96 said:


> Zobel is needed in this setup to compensate the variable diameter tube acoustic impedance shift.



I am not sure I understand this part here, why would that happen?


----------



## stephensynanta16 (Oct 8, 2019)

Revised the last STL file, here's the universal nozzle for MASM 7

Thanks @dhruvmeena96  for correcting the mistake

It has 2 bore as suggested, both TWFK(CMIW) tube will merge gently with HODVTEC(CMIW) tube at 7mm.

from the end, both bore were straight for 12mm before it start to bend.

i made the BS6 bore slightly larger at 2,3mm on the model, after printing the ID should be 2.2-2.1mm, the inner side should have some roughness left from printing process to grip the damper.
I made it larger since you'll need some wiggle room to push a damper into the middle of the tube.  It's better than having a damper going nowhere, stuck in the middle of the tube.





Here's the link for those who want to try, SLA printing is highly recomended, and print it in clear, it'll be easier to see how far you've pushed the damper.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1qhP3Ukycgl7L_a88O1y0nK-hJ9x0AMfk

And please inform me if anyone had some suggestion for improvement, i highly appreciate it.
Also, please tell me in case i made another mistake


----------



## dhruvmeena96

homerograco said:


> I 3D printed the shell and nozzle, and attached the driver directly to the nozzle with a tube ring. I placed a green damper right in front of the driver, and made the nozzle a continuous horn of about 10mm after it. My idea was to have a smooth loading and increase high frequency response, and to my ears it is doing it well.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




When you have a resonator, the sound is lagged compared to its electrical signal when we take the time for the audio to reach ear drum...here is the impedance dip, in acoustic language.

Horn act as a deloader which is a single sided expanded and a single sided compressor. So when sound moves out, it see a low pressure zone ahead and when sound moves in(diaphragm moving back) it see the tube as high pressure zone..

These, with crappy BA electrical performance.. And yes, every old member agrees on that, the BA performs really very very bad in electrical parameters...creates huge crappy impedance plots.(except for custom Art @piotrusout

specialized driver)

When this is paired with acoustic mismatch creates variable ear pressure zone which hurting ears, non linear distortion and linear distortion, plus makes IEM picky to sources and amp...which makes people spend more money on amp.

Zobel on IEM starts the low pass cap really low, which selects almost all frequency from 500Hz...so how much crappy impedance you have acoustically and electrically, all gets ironed oregion



This is normal RAB, see the impedance peak touching 200ohms in 3kHz region

Grey line is phase and see how it shifts phase...and this is without tubes


 



This is RAB with zobel and 30ohm resistance

See the phase here and see how leveled and behaved the impedance is ...

Just zoom out like above chart and you will see a good flat line


 



stephensynanta16 said:


> what kind of software is that?


Comsol multiphysics


----------



## dhruvmeena96

stephensynanta16 said:


> Revised the last STL file, here's the universal nozzle for MASM 7
> 
> Thanks @dhruvmeena96  for correcting the mistake
> 
> ...


I think you uploaded the 3 bore again....

Even though you made the dual bore as per images..

I opened the file and it still has 3 bores


----------



## stephensynanta16

dhruvmeena96 said:


> I think you uploaded the 3 bore again....
> 
> Even though you made the dual bore as per images..
> 
> I opened the file and it still has 3 bores


LOL, i made another mistake 

i've replaced the links, please try again.


----------



## homerograco

wow, I need to build a zobel! How small are the components? I don't have much space left in my shells (I wanna a very small design like etymotics).


----------



## stephensynanta16

homerograco said:


> wow, I need to build a zobel! How small are the components? I don't have much space left in my shells (I wanna a very small design like etymotics).


With smd component, u can make it on 1cm x 1cm board or even a bit smaller.

But i can't think of any way if u want to put it inside of etymotics shell, the pcb board itself will be bigger than the diameter of the shell.

My silly idea: put the zobel on the cable near the mmcx or near the 3,5mm plug, then create a small case for the zobel (this must've been a very absurd idea)


----------



## eunice

You don’t need a pcb for Zobel. It’s Just a resistor and capacitor, you can just solder them together and cover them with a few drops of resin.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

stephensynanta16 said:


> With smd component, u can make it on 1cm x 1cm board or even a bit smaller.
> 
> But i can't think of any way if u want to put it inside of etymotics shell, the pcb board itself will be bigger than the diameter of the shell.
> 
> My silly idea: put the zobel on the cable near the mmcx or near the 3,5mm plug, then create a small case for the zobel (this must've been a very absurd idea)


You know...this thread is doing zobel back from pg500’s

And has moved so much that we have ED29689 zobel
Which I have done with my etymotic er4s build. Distortion drop was huge as the frequency moved up.

No need to put it into cable...dont actually...it will make cable proprietary to iem..

You can fit smd components.....

They are small..

If you are not able too..just make the shell slightly longer


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Oct 8, 2019)

@eunice









Even without bass driver...

this Setup sounds like an open back headphone.. Actually bigger in stage..

Distortion charts not available but at 1kHz to 10kHz, the distortion was 1/6 of original RAB.

Bass driver natural super low pass labyrinth is still not complete as we are not able to make labyrinth damp enough for now...working on geometry

The main goal is to make sound tune itself and remove dampers...

@stephensynanta16 you wanted to see crazyness of this thread....right



 



@Jedrula1 designed it, I calculated it...

We can control sound without having damper in straight acoustic path of driver, increasing detail...and while damping specific frequency I was able to boost RAB 10kHz to 8dB...

And for crazy experiment, used new path line damping tube schematics to band pass the driver (experimental)


You haven't seen @piotrus-g Dual CI and TWFK Scary build....its the hardest build to begin with...sounds fantastic but is also scary to build...as its electrical design seems simple but soldering breaks a person willpower..

Sound is mild V-shape with Bass digging deeper than dynamic or planar.

The single variable diameter RAB design is actually one of the simpler ones


----------



## eunice

I wasn't that much of a fan of the scary, although I agree that its crazy to build.

What are the different colors in you charst?


----------



## Choy Wei De (Oct 8, 2019)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Tubeless build??
> I am not getting a clear idea
> If you mean the shell, and placing driver...
> 
> ...



@homerograco

The way I understand is very unique.
A smaller ID tube is like a river with rushing water. The surface of the water is not travelling the same speed as underwater, not cohesive.

When a river flow to a bigger tube, ‘pond’ or ‘lake’, the surface of the water slow down and back in sync with underwater. With the correct size of the pond, when the water enters into a smaller river. The surface of the water is right at the same speed as underwater. If the pond is too small, the surface of the water is still faster than the underwater. If the pond too big, the water is too calm and the sound will become muddy. Just need the right size of pond.

The horn is like when a river adapt to a delta and flow into a ocean. If you use a hair dryer, the wind is very narrow and very forceful. But if you maintain same energy and spread it wide like a using chinese hand fan or use a big styrofoam as a fan, the end result is quite smoothing and very cohesive.

Weird explanation, but it helps me understand tube design and soundstage.


----------



## stephensynanta16

eunice said:


> You don’t need a pcb for Zobel. It’s Just a resistor and capacitor, you can just solder them together and cover them with a few drops of resin.





dhruvmeena96 said:


> You know...this thread is doing zobel back from pg500’s
> 
> And has moved so much that we have ED29689 zobel
> Which I have done with my etymotic er4s build. Distortion drop was huge as the frequency moved up.
> ...



Thx for reminding me guys, maybe i'm too caught up in my own thinking of kit-styled build. 
Currently experimenting with pcb printing, 1 cm x 1 cm double layer board for MASM7 zobel, gonna share the gerber someday. Hope it's gonna make it easier for everyone to build. 




dhruvmeena96 said:


> @eunice
> 
> [
> 
> ...



My gosh, what is that thing!? the tube... is it connected to the vent of the BA? 

Might be interesting to make it into 3d model, we could make those path spiralling on the main tube, something like this:





The footprint will be smaller, easier to integrate into shell


----------



## eunice

Printing a small spiral is ridiculously hard with SLA printers. If you figure out how it works, please share.


----------



## stephensynanta16

eunice said:


> Printing a small spiral is ridiculously hard with SLA printers. If you figure out how it works, please share.


i haven't tried it, gonna share it once i succeed printing one


----------



## eunice

stephensynanta16 said:


> i haven't tried it, gonna share it once i succeed printing one


The problem is that the resin takes to long flowing out of the spiral and the remaining droplets clog the spiral.


----------



## Jedrula1 (Oct 8, 2019)

stephensynanta16 said:


> i haven't tried it, gonna share it once i succeed printing one





eunice said:


> The problem is that the resin takes to long flowing out of the spiral and the remaining droplets clog the spiral.



You need high resolution, good quality DPL printer and take time to post-process the spiral to make sure all resin is washed and blown out before final curing. I am able to get more than 10cm of a spiral tube with a diameter of less than 0,5mm in very small print that fits custom shell easily. Ultrasonic cleaner with isopropyl alcohol makes the work done. Then syringe with alcohol to clean spiral with alcohol pressure. It took me a few attempts to get spiral DLP print works fine.


----------



## eunice

I have an anycubic photon, dunno if this qualifies as a high resolution DLP in your eyes. It can print 0.5mm holes no problem, but in a spiral it tends to clog. 
How do you do the cleaning with alcohol pressure?


----------



## Jedrula1

eunice said:


> I have an anycubic photon, dunno if this qualifies as a high resolution DLP in your eyes.


Unfortunately this is not 'high resolution' printer if you want me to be honest  



eunice said:


> How do you do the cleaning with alcohol pressure?


Get a syringe filled with alcohol, then put the tip at the end of the spiral and squeeze the syringe to make alcohol flow trough spiral. Repeat few times to get the best effects.


----------



## homerograco

dhruvmeena96 said:


> You know...this thread is doing zobel back from pg500’s
> 
> And has moved so much that we have ED29689 zobel
> Which I have done with my etymotic er4s build. Distortion drop was huge as the frequency moved up.
> ...



This is probably what I will try. I got pretty much no space left, but I think I can move the mmcx connector a little bit. Need to go back to the drawing board...


----------



## homerograco

Choy Wei De said:


> @homerograco
> 
> The way I understand is very unique.
> A smaller ID tube is like a river with rushing water. The surface of the water is not travelling the same speed as underwater, not cohesive.
> ...



Thanks a lot for the ELI5, loved it.


----------



## eunice

Jedrula1 said:


> Get a syringe filled with alcohol, then put the tip at the end of the spiral and squeeze the syringe to make alcohol flow trough spiral. Repeat few times to get the best effects.


Thank you, sometimes I am too dumb to see the simple solutions. I will try again.

BTW: Thats what I am working on. I build an insert into a CIEM that I can quickly switch out so I do not need to build a new shell for every iteration of a design.

This is not yet acoustically tuned, that's just a proof of concept for an "inner shell" inside a CIEM. So no spiral yet


----------



## ForceMajeure

eunice said:


> Thank you, sometimes I am too dumb to see the simple solutions. I will try again.
> 
> BTW: Thats what I am working on. I build an insert into a CIEM that I can quickly switch out so I do not need to build a new shell for every iteration of a design.
> 
> This is not yet acoustically tuned, that's just a proof of concept for an "inner shell" inside a CIEM. So no spiral yet


thank you for using the "Section Analsys" option to show us


----------



## eunice

ForceMajeure said:


> thank you for using the "Section Analsys" option to show us


To be honest I had to search 10 minutes to find out on how to turn it off again


----------



## ForceMajeure

eunice said:


> To be honest I had to search 10 minutes to find out on how to turn it off again


one of the latest update they have done to the UI is getting me confused. I have a hard time adjusting to the new icons


----------



## eunice

ForceMajeure said:


> one of the latest update they have done to the UI is getting me confused. I have a hard time adjusting to the new icons



I am a complete noob to CAD/CAM. First I refused to buy into that cloud stuff (why can't I export to a STL without going over their servers?) and "free as long as we like" licenses. In fact the Fusion License just changed.

My first try was with FreeCAD which I like a lot more. Really, Fusion trys to hide the mathematical construction and ends up very confusing in comparison. For example why is the distance constraint part of the "Create" menu while the dimension of a circle is part of the circles properties and most other constraints are in the "Constraints" menu?

In FreeCAD this is much clearer, there is additive shapes, substracting shapes and constraints. It's up to you how you constrain the shapes. But it freezes a lot on my mac and it became so annoying that after 5 hours I gave up and recreated the design in Fusion.

Sorry for the rant. Are there any alternatives for the complex shapes we need for IEMs?

And I'm still looking for a way to simulate the acoustic properties, I think Comsol is too expensive for me. Does anyone have ideas on how to do simulation?


----------



## homerograco

eunice said:


> Sorry for the rant. Are there any alternatives for the complex shapes we need for IEMs?



I am using Blender for all my designs, it can be as complex as you want...


----------



## SupperTime

pace88 said:


> You can try rubbing the marking with thinner


OK it didn't work but I found out some of the shells I have that I want cleaned and wiped off have An additional layer of anodized alluminum, how do I get rid of that extra layer/coat?


----------



## eunice

SupperTime said:


> OK it didn't work but I found out some of the shells I have that I want cleaned and wiped off have An additional layer of anodized alluminum, how do I get rid of that extra layer/coat?


Just sand it down?


----------



## SupperTime

eunice said:


> Just sand it down?


OK thanks, what paper you recommend, like grit? And also how do I not damage the underneath layer?


----------



## eunice (Oct 8, 2019)

SupperTime said:


> OK thanks, what paper you recommend, like grit? And also how do I not damage the underneath layer?



With aluminum you can use any finer grit. I'ld try something like 1200 grit wet sandpaper. After that the surface finish will be pretty dull and you have to go up in grit and then - depending on the surface finish you want to achieve - polish with a specific metal polish like Brasso or Mothers Metal Polish.

I am no expert in working with aluminum, you are probably in the wrong thread if you are looking for one. Most people here are using resin, acrylic, epoxy and the likes.

Oh, and just to state the obvious:  It might be better to first try with a scrap anodized aluminum part to see if you like the surface finish you get.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

eunice said:


> I wasn't that much of a fan of the scary, although I agree that its crazy to build.
> 
> What are the different colors in you charst?


Different colours on chart.


The first chart is RAB with back exchange....

The chart having lines are variables

In second chart, @Jedrula1 compared the normal stock back tube to back tube + front tube


----------



## ericj

This is a big intimidating thread even for an oldtimer like me with over 8000 posts. 

Have searched a bit but my search terms are lacking, I guess. I apologize for the ask. Giving me an idea what terms to search for would be an acceptable answer. 

like 5 years ago i think, I picked up a set of Westone 3 on which one side is missing half the shell and the bit that funnels the nozzles from the 3 drivers into the one output. At the time I thought I'd shell out for customs. I never got around to it. 

I do understand that the driver cluster in these is a standard Knowles assembly that was customized for Westone. 

These days i have an Anycubic Photon resin printer and i know how to print stuff with it but my 3d design skills are rudimentary. I know i could probably do my own ear impressions and use photogrammetry to get a 3d model and hollow it out, but even just putting these into some aliexpress shells might be a good first step. 

I can't even figure out what the eensy bit of plumbing that joins the 3 nozzles is called. Even though i am pretty sure i could sort of design one. 

Anybody want to offer a kickstart?


----------



## homerograco

ericj said:


> I can't even figure out what the eensy bit of plumbing that joins the 3 nozzles is called. Even though i am pretty sure i could sort of design one.
> 
> Anybody want to offer a kickstart?



You are talking about tubing. AliExpress sells them, the most important to know are the inner diameter (ID) and outer diameter (OD) values. For my Knowles ED 29689 I got a 1mm ID 2mm OD tube. Important to know is also that the tube length will affect the frequency response, and this is one of the ways to tune drivers in IEMs.

Also, you probably want to 3D print a base where all tubings are joined together before going to the nozzle, you can either design this yourself or ask someone here. I did some nozzle design, but my skills are not the best lol.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Oct 9, 2019)

ericj said:


> This is a big intimidating thread even for an oldtimer like me with over 8000 posts.
> 
> Have searched a bit but my search terms are lacking, I guess. I apologize for the ask. Giving me an idea what terms to search for would be an acceptable answer.
> 
> ...


What sort of sound you want to have... And what scale of sound.. And how many drivers...

Scale...means stereo width.. I have some iems which reaches open back level of staging

If you liked Westone 3....that means, you need strong bass, dry mids and shimmery metallic treble without much sibilance annoyance.


And the customised Knowles driver was from Westone 30... The old Westone used standard Knowles driver


----------



## ericj

dhruvmeena96 said:


> What sort of sound you want to have... And what scale of sound.. And how many drivers...
> 
> Scale...means stereo width.. I have some iems which reaches open back level of staging
> 
> ...



I actually never heard the westone 3, was just a good deal on parts at the time. 

I like a mostly neutral signature with good bass extension but tight, clear bass. 

out-of-head imaging isn't important to me in a portable. 

Most of my favorite cans are modified orthos, but, from the unmodified cans . . . 

Fostex RP-T50 Mk3 but with more bass slam? 

Hifiman HE-400S but with more bass extension - or alternately HE-4XX but with the speed and clarity of the 400S? 

AKG K240DF but slightly more neutral and with electrostatic speed maybe? 

Stax SR-001Mk2 but with better extension at both ends? 

Maybe i just want to re-house the drivers from these westones and then mess around with it from there.


----------



## MuZo2

@ericj nice to see you on this thread. Are you good with CAD ? I think the best thing you can do is buy a readymade shell or just a cheap KZ iem and use them for housing your westone3 drivers. You can design the connector in CAD and print it on your anycubic, may be you will have to consider for shrinkage. I guess Westone3 has white/green dampers which you will need to incorporate into the spout.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

MuZo2 said:


> @ericj nice to see you on this thread. Are you good with CAD ? I think the best thing you can do is buy a readymade shell or just a cheap KZ iem and use them for housing your westone3 drivers. You can design the connector in CAD and print it on your anycubic, may be you will have to consider for shrinkage. I guess Westone3 has white/green dampers which you will need to incorporate into the spout.


Yes we need a KZ shell 3D scan.... That would be simple game changer 




ericj said:


> I actually never heard the westone 3, was just a good deal on parts at the time.
> 
> I like a mostly neutral signature with good bass extension but tight, clear bass.
> 
> ...



Neutral but bass boost from 250Hz is what you need. 

ED29689 + Sonion 38D1XJ(subwoofer)

Easy

And will still maintain the 3 driver rule

But if you want to go crazy on tuning and want something super flagship(Harman Kardon IE2017 Tuning + B&K impulse tuning)

Sonion 38D1XJ
Sonion 3300
Knowles ED29689


----------



## pace88 (Oct 10, 2019)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Yes we need a KZ shell 3D scan.... That would be simple game changer
> 
> dhruv what is the total tubing length for your zobel single ba design?
> 
> ...



dhruv what is the total tubing length for your zobel single ba design?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

pace88 said:


> dhruv what is the total tubing length for your zobel single ba design?


I think tube design STL is out..

But still
Here you go


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Triple stage damping success 1.

Used an ED29689 and a 2mm ID/12mm tube

Used a white near spout, grey at center and grey at end.
Total damper wise is 1340ohms of damping. But it equates to 1510ohms...which is green damper


It sounds better than stock ED29689 + green(etymotic er4 style)

Its less restrictive and has better high end note compared to straight green damper.

Theory in layman is 

Its better to have broken road rather than having a pit..

In detail

White damper near spout dampens the ED29689 spout resonance and driver peaks.. Grey damper at center just rolls of a slight and helps in damping tube resonances..

The last damper perfectly dampens the driver... And also dampens the earcanal sound reflection entering iem nozzle..


----------



## pace88

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Triple stage damping success 1.
> 
> Used an ED29689 and a 2mm ID/12mm tube
> 
> ...


12mm long tube, hmmm like suitable, I will try it later


----------



## dhruvmeena96

pace88 said:


> 12mm long tube, hmmm like suitable, I will try it later


Is it shure shell...where did you get it from..
Aliexpress shure shell ain't good


----------



## pace88

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Is it shure shell...where did you get it from..
> Aliexpress shure shell ain't good


yes shure gen shell, I made it myself


----------



## SupremusDoofus

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Yes we need a KZ shell 3D scan.... That would be simple game changer


Yeah a scan of the zs3/zs4 shell would be awesome


----------



## ericj

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Yes we need a KZ shell 3D scan.... That would be simple game changer



Anyone with a halfway decent camera and a relatively modern computer can do photogrammetry. 

Basically you take a whole bunch of pictures at different angles and software stitches them together into a 3d model. And then you have to do some cleanup on that model. Microsoft's free 3d tool for windows 10 does some important stuff, and autodesk's fusion 360 (also free-ish) does some other important stuff. I haven't done it yet. 

My research so far suggests that while the "laser" photo scanning systems have a better theoretical basis for a successful scan, at the "less than a hundred bucks invested not including stuff you already own" price point, the laser 3d scanners produce worse results (by a wide margin) than even manual photogrammetry. 



> Neutral but bass boost from 250Hz is what you need.
> 
> ED29689 + Sonion 38D1XJ(subwoofer)
> 
> ...



OK but i want to start with the 3 drivers (per side) that i already physically possess.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Oct 12, 2019)

ericj said:


> Anyone with a halfway decent camera and a relatively modern computer can do photogrammetry.
> 
> Basically you take a whole bunch of pictures at different angles and software stitches them together into a 3d model. And then you have to do some cleanup on that model. Microsoft's free 3d tool for windows 10 does some important stuff, and autodesk's fusion 360 (also free-ish) does some other important stuff. I haven't done it yet.
> 
> ...


Hmmm

Okay...which drivers you have currently....


Can you write to model numbers...or should I find about it..
Westone 3


CI-22955 and TWFK30017

Lemme see


----------



## ericj

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Hmmm
> 
> Okay...which drivers you have currently....
> 
> ...



I'll take pics tomorrow. I am reasonably certain that i recall that it's a 3-driver module that Knowles offered pre-assembled, and that it's alleged that the crossover network was customized for Westone.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Oct 12, 2019)

ericj said:


> I'll take pics tomorrow. I am reasonably certain that i recall that it's a 3-driver module that Knowles offered pre-assembled, and that it's alleged that the crossover network was customized for Westone.


I know the drivers

They are not custom drivers.. They are standard CI-22955 and TWFK30017.

Westone 30 onwards had custom driver and that's the territory we cannot have..

And the assembly is Knowles GK-31732 with one ordinary damper..

What westone might have done is ditching the crossover by Knowles standard and doing there own way..

We cannot discuss that too..

But what we can do is....if you have drivers intact(no harm)...we can measure the TWFK and CI individually and do a dual damping dual tube for even better control on sound profile..

You are starting from the old era basics.. Hahaha...that's also good...

nowadays, all the member starts from buying drivers..

But back in time, all old timers used to reshell..

I did IE8 reshell into some aliexpress custom shell and had foam inside at the faceplate...so the dynamic back wave can be absorbed...

The result was absurd subbass without any change in all other frequency(slightly less mid bass)



I am also from the old era headfi...when they had iPhone type of look for mobile users


----------



## Ivan TT (Oct 12, 2019)

Sooooo....

I removed spouts from my x4 RAB series set + zobel + green damper.

Impressions: almost DD level and quality lows and mids (sweetest mids I've heard from BA so far) but still faster and better resolution of lows, much higher quality than HODVTEC or CI; less distortion; no funny upper-mids resonances, more highs compared to when having spouts on.
While this set up does not have GV's technical delivery or Harman target response it is amusingly musical and has this SLAM!

I hereby name spoutless RABs and RAFs "naked" 

And the nature of naked RAB/RAF is quite different, I actually see it almost as another driver altogether that extends a bit more and is not as peaky, I would expect improvement in all recipes that utilise these drivers.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Ivan TT said:


> Sooooo....
> 
> I removed spouts from my x4 RAB series set + zobel + green damper.
> 
> ...


Nice way of removing spout resonances


----------



## BigBublik

Hi, guys.

I want to make triple-driver CIEM. I bought drivers - 29689, 22955 and 30095.
Please tell me which crossover circuit to use?
And whether or not to use filters?


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Oct 12, 2019)

BigBublik said:


> Hi, guys.
> 
> I want to make triple-driver CIEM. I bought drivers - 29689, 22955 and 30095.
> Please tell me which crossover circuit to use?
> And whether or not to use filters?


I can work on that
What sort of tuning you need

That would be easy
@ericj @BigBublik 

Will work on designs tommorow


----------



## BigBublik

Thank you.
I want get more warm sound.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Oct 12, 2019)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> I can work on that
> What sort of tuning you need
> 
> That would be easy
> ...


CI-22955 + 10ohms
Tube = 20mm length / 1mm
Yellow damper at 5mm away from spout
Followed by white damper




ED29689

Crossover
47uF series(high pass)
470nF parallel(low pass)
Resistor damping= 15ohms
Tube = 16mm/1mm
Damper brown near spout


(How to wire it
ED29689 -> parallel cap => series cap=> resistor damping=> mmcx)





WBFK30095
470nF series High pass
13mm/1mm

Grey damper


----------



## dhruvmeena96

@ericj I would like to see your driver pics first

And I have to find Westone 3 already released FR somewhere before we actually continue with tuning

That's why I paused


----------



## alanwcruz

MASM 7

Had a real hard time getting everything to fit... even had to 3D print the RAB resonator and a 90 degree angle for the BS6. 

@dhruvmeena96 you're right about the amount of detail on this thing! My hats of to you for the design!


----------



## dhruvmeena96

alanwcruz said:


> MASM 7
> 
> Had a real hard time getting everything to fit... even had to 3D print the RAB resonator and a 90 degree angle for the BS6.
> 
> @dhruvmeena96 you're right about the amount of detail on this thing! My hats of to you for the design!


The real magic happens when you feed power with a super clean amp(real ground amp) and a good DAC.

MASM 7 requires power to shine, even though its low impedance and easy to run anywhere...with its dB.

I am using THX AAA789


----------



## alanwcruz

dhruvmeena96 said:


> The real magic happens when you feed power with a super clean amp(real ground amp) and a good DAC.
> 
> MASM 7 requires power to shine, even though its low impedance and easy to run anywhere...with its dB.
> 
> I am using THX AAA789



I'm using an Oppo HA-2SE. Would you recommend something more powerful?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

alanwcruz said:


> I'm using an Oppo HA-2SE. Would you recommend something more powerful?


Objective 2 + Oppo HA2SE(DAC + preamp)


----------



## SupremusDoofus

Are they any good knowles SR-32453 builds in here?


----------



## stephensynanta16 (Oct 15, 2019)

For anyone looking to print a shell, try this one, modelled after KZ ZS10 Pro, not a perfect copy, a bit bigger, the curves is slightly different.



The nozzle has 6mm OD, 4,3mm ID (hope u can put 2 tubes inside)
Links: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1L8GTJxJI4fu-iqsJWHhfGevyti8_DWwn


----------



## stephensynanta16

And for those who dares to try, this is for MASM7.

I havent tested it yet.










The hole is a bit large since u're gonna be shoving a damper inside.

Links:
Faceplate: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1bh1KrWnnY8I6uxkaI-2jMmQt98TPz1-i
Shell: https://drive.google.com/open?id=13dDN2XpGMYXZkYfY0KdFq4t8KndmF_JP

Please do inform me of the result, i really need the feedback.


----------



## Ivan TT

stephensynanta16 said:


> For anyone looking to print a shell, try this one, modelled after KZ ZS10 Pro
> 
> The nozzle has 6mm OD, 4,3mm ID (hope u can put 2 tubes inside)
> Links: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1L8GTJxJI4fu-iqsJWHhfGevyti8_DWwn


This stuff is absolutely Awesome! 

Can you do a faceplate for this one too?

Also, do you think you could construct the nozzle along these lines:
https://m.intl.taobao.com/detail/detail.html?id=565129690783
but maybe a variant for x2 2mm ID (3mm OD) and maybe x1 2mm ID (3mm OD) and x2 1mm ID (2mm OD) tubing, if its no too much trouble?


----------



## stephensynanta16

Ivan TT said:


> This stuff is absolutely Awesome!
> 
> Can you do a faceplate for this one too?
> 
> ...


I'll try it on weekend


----------



## Kulgrinda

stephensynanta16 said:


> For anyone looking to print a shell, try this one, modelled after KZ ZS10 Pro, not a perfect copy, a bit bigger, the curves is slightly different.
> 
> The nozzle has 6mm OD, 4,3mm ID (hope u can put 2 tubes inside)
> Links: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1L8GTJxJI4fu-iqsJWHhfGevyti8_DWwn



Awesome! I've tried printing some shells from Thingiverse.com free designs, but none were usable. 

From my experience I know KZ ZS10 is a bit bulky. Did you make a bit smaller shell? 

I do the same thing but old style - simply carefully seal the earphone I want to copy and pour agar agar over it. Then I can make a first set which is usually not the smoothest one, sand it, adjust it, then make another negative copy with agar agar and I have a perfect negative form for future use. My preference is a bit modified KZ ZSR shell, it is very close to Ibasso IT04. Most comfortable and most secure fit in the ear. I also used KZ ZST (for double CI+TWFK since it would not fit into ZSR shell) and some generic Shure knock offs from Ali that I plan on using for one driver setup (when I find the one I like).


----------



## stephensynanta16

Kulgrinda said:


> Awesome! I've tried printing some shells from Thingiverse.com free designs, but none were usable.
> 
> From my experience I know KZ ZS10 is a bit bulky. Did you make a bit smaller shell?
> 
> I do the same thing but old style - simply carefully seal the earphone I want to copy and pour agar agar over it. Then I can make a first set which is usually not the smoothest one, sand it, adjust it, then make another negative copy with agar agar and I have a perfect negative form for future use. My preference is a bit modified KZ ZSR shell, it is very close to Ibasso IT04. Most comfortable and most secure fit in the ear. I also used KZ ZST (for double CI+TWFK since it would not fit into ZSR shell) and some generic Shure knock offs from Ali that I plan on using for one driver setup (when I find the one I like).


Yes it's bulky compared to shure shells, and mine's even a bit bulkier, 

Its  gonna be a challenge to model zsr shell, it has nooks and cranny everywhere.

Gonna try when i get my hand on one of the zsr.


----------



## stephensynanta16

stephensynanta16 said:


> Yes it's bulky compared to shure shells, and mine's even a bit bulkier,  I haven't done a smaller one.
> 
> Its  gonna be a challenge to model zsr shell, it has nooks and cranny everywhere.
> 
> Gonna try when i get my hand on one of the zsr.


----------



## Ivan TT

stephensynanta16 said:


> Yes it's bulky compared to shure shells, and mine's even a bit bulkier,
> 
> Its  gonna be a challenge to model zsr shell, it has nooks and cranny everywhere.
> 
> Gonna try when i get my hand on one of the zsr.


Bulky is good, especially if doing hybrids or multi-drivers especially helpful to keep tubing straight.
Well, as long as the shell is not falling out under its ow weight...


----------



## Kulgrinda (Oct 15, 2019)

Ivan TT said:


> Bulky is good, especially if doing hybrids or multi-drivers especially helpful to keep tubing straight.
> Well, as long as the shell is not falling out under its ow weight...


Bulky is good until it can fit in your ear. Otherwise it is unusable 
ZSR has a bend in the middle and it is using a lot of space. But as for now I couldn't fit only 2xCI + TWFK with a lot of wiring and components (piotrus-g 3 way design). All the other fit without any problem - ED+FED, GQ+RAB, GK+RAB, BS6+zobel.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Oct 15, 2019)

stephensynanta16 said:


> For anyone looking to print a shell, try this one, modelled after KZ ZS10 Pro, not a perfect copy, a bit bigger, the curves is slightly different.
> 
> The nozzle has 6mm OD, 4,3mm ID (hope u can put 2 tubes inside)
> Links: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1L8GTJxJI4fu-iqsJWHhfGevyti8_DWwn


4.3mm ID

Its more than enough for 3 tubes of 1mm ID...


I am still thinking of something with BK.

I hate drivers having peak at 1kHz(at any dB).

But I have heard some BK bass... And it sounds tight and punchy...if tuned properly


----------



## homerograco

stephensynanta16 said:


> And for those who dares to try, this is for MASM7.
> 
> I havent tested it yet.
> <attachments>
> ...



Awesome work what you did here!

In your experience, how well defined such a model would come out of an SLA printer? What are the biggest annoyances one normally goes through when printing with resin?


----------



## stephensynanta16

homerograco said:


> Awesome work what you did here!
> 
> In your experience, how well defined such a model would come out of an SLA printer? What are the biggest annoyances one normally goes through when printing with resin?



The overall shape should be the same, the dlp printer might deviate a little, 0,1-0,3mm, especially on small hole, such as th hole for the ba, and tubes, it will come out slightly smaller than the model.

 I've modelled the hole slightly bigger about 0,2 or 0,3mm, so that i'll come out just right. 

It wont be much an issue on sla, since it has better resolution than dlp.


----------



## Xymordos

Just finished a new set of 6 drivers which was based on the original UERM which I then tweaked to achieve a measured flat response. Actually sounds really good and not bass anemic at all. Impedance plot is horrible though, just like the original, oh wells. 

Drivers were 2x CI22955, 1 of eAudio's dual 29689 (more like a Sonion 2389D), and 1x SWFK31736 (eAudio's).

Used tiny colored stones on the face plate and covered it in resin. Worked out pretty nicely.



Spoiler: Pics






 







Spoiler: Frequency Response


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Xymordos said:


> Just finished a new set of 6 drivers which was based on the original UERM which I then tweaked to achieve a measured flat response. Actually sounds really good and not bass anemic at all. Impedance plot is horrible though, just like the original, oh wells.
> 
> Drivers were 2x CI22955, 1 of eAudio's dual 29689 (more like a Sonion 2389D), and 1x SWFK31736 (eAudio's).
> 
> ...


Nice to have you back

Well, did you use ED29689dual as center tapped or normal


Because of you have used normal, we can add zobel to ED..

Then you can slightly change cross or damper setting and we can correct over previous design

But then I am late....since you build it already


----------



## Xymordos

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Nice to have you back
> 
> Well, did you use ED29689dual as center tapped or normal
> 
> ...



The driver is parallel, there's no center tap actually for eAudio's Dual 29689 drivers. I did use a zobel for it from trial and error but I think the difference in impedance between the bass and treble drivers is too big. I used white damper for each driver. Each driver uses a 2mm x 10mm PVC tube, and each tube ends 5mm away from the end of the nozzle so there's some horn like structure.


----------



## pace88

Xymordos said:


> Just finished a new set of 6 drivers which was based on the original UERM which I then tweaked to achieve a measured flat response. Actually sounds really good and not bass anemic at all. Impedance plot is horrible though, just like the original, oh wells.
> 
> Drivers were 2x CI22955, 1 of eAudio's dual 29689 (more like a Sonion 2389D), and 1x SWFK31736 (eAudio's).
> 
> ...


very beautiful job


----------



## dhruvmeena96

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Nice to have you back
> 
> Well, did you use ED29689dual as center tapped or normal
> 
> ...


@Xymordos post the impedance and phase graph, so we can understand the core issue and drawback of design...and then do some test with same driver different electronics to get same FR while having relatively flat impedance


----------



## ericj

dhruvmeena96 said:


> @ericj I would like to see your driver pics first
> 
> And I have to find Westone 3 already released FR somewhere before we actually continue with tuning
> 
> That's why I paused



Sorry for no pics yet, I thought that got derailed. I will look for them again soon. They are in the original westone box somewhere, I am pretty sure i know where but not certain. 

What is meant by "damper" in this context?


----------



## SupremusDoofus

ericj said:


> Sorry for no pics yet, I thought that got derailed. I will look for them again soon. They are in the original westone box somewhere, I am pretty sure i know where but not certain.
> 
> What is meant by "damper" in this context?



Acoustic dampers used to tune audio. You place them inside tubes connecting to the BA: 

https://external-preview.redd.it/XT...bp&s=4062365128c652bd70fd017c9ecf2c07258d65bf


----------



## Xymordos

dhruvmeena96 said:


> @Xymordos post the impedance and phase graph, so we can understand the core issue and drawback of design...and then do some test with same driver different electronics to get same FR while having relatively flat impedance



Here it is, it looks similar to the UERM graph too lol.



Spoiler: Imp


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Xymordos said:


> Here it is, it looks similar to the UERM graph too lol.
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Imp


100Hz to 700Hz peak impedance can be fixed with CR .

the issue is rolling treble impedance, because it will need a inductive coil pretty big


----------



## Xymordos

dhruvmeena96 said:


> 100Hz to 700Hz peak impedance can be fixed with CR .
> 
> the issue is rolling treble impedance, because it will need a inductive coil pretty big



The zobel didn't work on it since the crossover point is too high and I had to keep the freq response the same as it is now. Though from listening tests this config sounded really good and had a spherical sound stage so I just finalized on this version.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Xymordos said:


> The zobel didn't work on it since the crossover point is too high and I had to keep the freq response the same as it is now. Though from listening tests this config sounded really good and had a spherical sound stage so I just finalized on this version.


i mean, we have to zobel the whole setup instead of drivers

well i have to see how to solve it

@Ivan TT might be able to do it


----------



## wolkegeist

Just finished printing those shells. Can’t wait to put some juice in ‘em boiz.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

wolkegeist said:


> Just finished printing those shells. Can’t wait to put some juice in ‘em boiz.


That both are MASM 7 .
LoL

@stephensynanta16 empty shell can fit the SCARY. Which means the shell is perfect for this thread.

I have a question 

I need two drivers
One driver which peaks at 2kHz and 4kHz with dip at 3kHz.


And another driver having peak at 3kHz and small peak at 5kHz.


And both driver should be near in sensitivity and impedance DCR.

I want to tune resonance and decomb them. So I am not damping resonances but using resonance to tune. And resonance, if tuned properly can sound grand.

DML speaker experience


----------



## stephensynanta16

dhruvmeena96 said:


> That both are MASM 7 .
> LoL
> 
> @stephensynanta16 empty shell can fit the SCARY. Which means the shell is perfect for this thread.
> ...


Really?! It's that huge?! SCARY with 10 driver per ear?

This is just out of curiosity, is it the upper limit? or we can shove even more BA into those shell?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

stephensynanta16 said:


> Really?! It's that huge?! SCARY with 10 driver per ear?
> 
> This is just out of curiosity, is it the upper limit? or we can shove even more BA into those shell?


SCARY is 4 driver

2x CI and TWFK


----------



## ericj

SupremusDoofus said:


> Acoustic dampers used to tune audio. You place them inside tubes connecting to the BA:
> 
> https://external-preview.redd.it/XT...bp&s=4062365128c652bd70fd017c9ecf2c07258d65bf



OK, like the filters etymotic ships. Thanks. I totally understand now.


----------



## ericj

Alright here are pics of my Westone 3 parts. 

https://photos.app.goo.gl/e3QzqyuLqFCHRo8r6


----------



## pace88

ericj said:


> Alright here are pics of my Westone 3 parts.
> 
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/e3QzqyuLqFCHRo8r6


like ci + twfk, do they patent westone


----------



## dhruvmeena96

eunice said:


> I am a complete noob to CAD/CAM. First I refused to buy into that cloud stuff (why can't I export to a STL without going over their servers?) and "free as long as we like" licenses. In fact the Fusion License just changed.
> 
> My first try was with FreeCAD which I like a lot more. Really, Fusion trys to hide the mathematical construction and ends up very confusing in comparison. For example why is the distance constraint part of the "Create" menu while the dimension of a circle is part of the circles properties and most other constraints are in the "Constraints" menu?
> 
> ...



https://alternativeto.net/software/comsol/?license=free

Here you go

You might have to learn MATLAB and python. And some prior knowledge on physics too...

https://www.britannica.com/science/sound-physics

And a guide in using those free softwares....as they are very hard to learn compared to Comsol multiphysics


----------



## dhruvmeena96

ericj said:


> Alright here are pics of my Westone 3 parts.
> 
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/e3QzqyuLqFCHRo8r6


Its simple crossover between CI and TWFK

Now, you have two routes when reshelling.

Dual bore or single bore.

Dual bore recipie

Both driver with 7mm tube
CI-22955 (1mm ID) Red damper at center
TWFK (2mm ID) brown damper at center


Single bore

7mm (2mm ID) green damper at center


----------



## dhruvmeena96

stephensynanta16 said:


> Really?! It's that huge?! SCARY with 10 driver per ear?
> 
> This is just out of curiosity, is it the upper limit? or we can shove even more BA into those shell?


If you are talking about SWFK...I can fit 12 SWFK in it.(24 drivers)


If talking about CI... 4CI inside the shell


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Distancing the bass(Sonion 38D1XJ) driver by 30cm(yes, 300mm or 0.3m)

Review:
Bass feels out of the head. More stereo separation. Less fatigue and BA rumble like dynamic driver without loosing speed. A better feeling compared to Delayed ignition Bass driver(spiral ear).

A very different kind of experience. Not like planar, electrostatic, standard BA or Dynamic. Its very different


----------



## Xymordos

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Distancing the bass(Sonion 38D1XJ) driver by 30cm(yes, 300mm or 0.3m)
> 
> Review:
> Bass feels out of the head. More stereo separation. Less fatigue and BA rumble like dynamic driver without loosing speed. A better feeling compared to Delayed ignition Bass driver(spiral ear).
> ...



It goes a lot deeper when you use a "long tube" method, but I feel it sort of makes the sense of space a bit skewed, like some disconnect between treble and bass.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Xymordos said:


> It goes a lot deeper when you use a "long tube" method, but I feel it sort of makes the sense of space a bit skewed, like some disconnect between treble and bass.


Well, time delay kicks in due to long tube..

Well, we can say a slight disconnect on time domain.
 But phase was maintained.


Yes, it gets deep

And space moves outside the head and more spread rather than inside the head. And it feels less concentrated


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Does anybody have crazy ideas

I am jumping with a lot of weird ideas recently on iem designs.

FED30048 x 2 parallel
ED30761 x 2 parallel
Dynamic driver 8mm


----------



## Xymordos

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Does anybody have crazy ideas
> 
> I am jumping with a lot of weird ideas recently on iem designs.
> 
> ...



I want to do a dual 10mm planar if there's space haha


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Xymordos said:


> I want to do a dual 10mm planar if there's space haha


and i want to do a 14mm and 10mm planar with EST tweeter


----------



## stephensynanta16

Xymordos said:


> I want to do a dual 10mm planar if there's space haha





dhruvmeena96 said:


> and i want to do a 14mm and 10mm planar with EST tweeter



You guys and your mad idea 

count me in when you're ready to execute those idea.

It's gonna be one hell of a challenge to fit those driver into a shell.


----------



## wolkegeist

Guys is Alibaba the only place to get the 10 & 14mm Planar drivers ? do they sell in small quantity like 1-2 pairs?


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Oct 26, 2019)

wolkegeist said:


> Guys is Alibaba the only place to get the 10 & 14mm Planar drivers ? do they sell in small quantity like 1-2 pairs?


https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/khTrWjPa
14mm planar driver

@wolkegeist it is available in small amount




Unfortunately, the 10mm is on alibaba

Still searching the taobao with friends to find any hint of 10mm


----------



## Xymordos

dhruvmeena96 said:


> https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/khTrWjPa
> 14mm planar driver
> 
> Unfortunately, the 10mm is on alibaba
> ...



They don't sell them in small batches unfortunately...


----------



## dhruvmeena96

@Xymordos
Do you have measurements for just 14mm planar and its impedance

Need it for a build


----------



## stephensynanta16 (Oct 29, 2019)

Big Update guys!

MASM 7 Reborn (easier than ever), made possible by the help of @dhruvmeena96

Disclaimer: might or will sound different from the regular build, since we're using different tube material & slightly alter the zobel using easier to find component.


 

No need to to do extra work, almost everthing was 3d printed(tube, BA mount, mmcx mounting, pcb Mount), integrated into the shell

STL links:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1yGw0EpCd44TYAePnwlNiKSalUp56inNU
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ymxqtwum8yw-avV6yLavAoVgbl9jGTiu

BRD for zobel:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1fF1GVznc29R9Ic7dj6x1k_NHe8hPS2Gs

Assembly Guide:
1. Print the PCB (it can fit 1,6mm, but 1mm dual layer is recomended, or anything thinner is even better)
2. Print the Shell (SLA, DLP will do the job, but need some post processing)
2.A. Sand the shell to remove leftover from printing support, you can also coat the inside with clear paint/nail polish in this step to get crystal clear finish  inside the shell.
3. Solder everything in place:


A. 15 Ohm SMD 1206
B. 10 Ohm SMD 1206
C. 22 Micro Farrad Caps 0805
D. 82 Ohm 1206
E. 4,7 Micro Farrad Caps 0603 (this one is a bit different from original recipe, easier to find)

4. Solder all the wire, connector & BA (RAB-32033 & Bellsing 10013), the shell will fit Slotted MMCX. Please note the wire orientation & wire length while soldering everything, please consider the way we're gonna put it into the shell.
5. cut some tubes in a very small length, just to fit into the BA's spout to function as an adapter & seal. 
USE EPOXY GLUE/NAIL POLISH TO GLUE THE TUBES, i've been constantly prying open my masm7 everyday for 3 days, tingkering around on each component, only to find the issue was the tube seal leakage


6. use 2,2mm drill to enlarge the BZ6 Hole from the nozzle, (only if needed), make sure you stop after drilling 10mm.
7. Put the damper in BZ6 nozzle hole, white damper at 10mm(it'll stop at 10mm, since i incorporated a stopper inside the tube), brown damper at the nozzle.
8. Assemble everything in place.You may use some glue to hold the BA in place, or cut some tube as spacer between the BA and inner wall(non-permanent build, might alter the sound)
9. The mmcx should have some space around it, fill it with some epoxy glue.
10. close & glue the faceplate.
11. Do the finishing touch, either clear nail polish, spray paint, or anything as you see fit

The shell is thick for sure. will do update for a thinner shell.

Hope this will help everyone.

Changelog from the original MASM7 recipe:
- slightly different caps for RAB zobel
- RAB's tube is stretched to 30mm for phase correction, calculated by @dhruvmeena96


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Oct 26, 2019)

MASM7 response by @Senor CIEM

I still prefer RAB32063 and its zobel

But bass lover can go RAB32033

Using RAB32063 will make 300Hz flatter and then bass rise intensity would be lowered by 3dB, but will still extend..

Plus slightly more treble


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Hello everyone.....

There is something I would love to ask.

I want to make project bass cannon
Issue is, no sonion drivers for this one

And the condition for this build is that I want to preserve the sound and not make it bloated or aggressively warm.

I just want pure heart shaking subbass roar and rumble.

Any ideas or build.


----------



## Ivan TT (Oct 27, 2019)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Hello everyone.....
> 
> There is something I would love to ask.
> 
> ...


Listening to x4 RAF no spouts in series as I type.
It has the best bass (better than GV or GK or BS6 all zobeled) both in volume and slam/impact especially electronic music that has good sub-bass, while measures very to similar to them (to about 1kHz).
So while it may not be exactly what you are after as it is warm and has a bit of noticeable mid-bass bleed, it’s a worthwhile build to try.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Oct 27, 2019)

Ivan TT said:


> Listening to x4 RAF no spouts in series as I type.
> It has the best bass (better than GV or GK or BS6 all zobeled) both in volume and slam/impact especially electronic music that has good sub-bass, while measures very to similar to them (to about 1kHz).
> So while it may not be exactly what you are after as it is warm and has a bit of noticeable mid-bass bleed, it’s a worthwhile build to try.


Thanks for the reply

But I am using RAB32037 x 4 parallel

First reason
Quad series RAB series combined inductance is lower than that of single RAB32037

Second reason
It doesnt have spout.

Third reason
It is predamped driver


Will see how it goes.


By the way I have tried quad RAB32033 series, liked a lot but needs a lot of power to play


----------



## eunice

Ivan TT said:


> Listening to x4 RAF no spouts in series as I type.
> It has the best bass (better than GV or GK or BS6 all zobeled) both in volume and slam/impact especially electronic music that has good sub-bass, while measures very to similar to them (to about 1kHz).
> So while it may not be exactly what you are after as it is warm and has a bit of noticeable mid-bass bleed, it’s a worthwhile build to try.


Does that mean you have figured out a Zobel for the GV? Are you willing to share?


----------



## SupremusDoofus

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Hello everyone.....
> 
> There is something I would love to ask.
> 
> ...


What about a sony mh750 like tuning? Harman with bass boost


----------



## dhruvmeena96

eunice said:


> Does that mean you have figured out a Zobel for the GV? Are you willing to share?


He will share...by the way....he has the "the rig"

The days he was not replying, he was inventing new zobels.

By the way, anybody knows a good dynamic, which has bass rise from 250Hz onwards.
And can be easily found.


----------



## leapof

Hi guys! I haven't posted in a while but I'm really happy about this new pair I made trying to copy that swirl effect like some of the Noble, Custom Art etc ones, so I wanted to share them with you! Simple GV inside nothing fancy, I was going for aesthetics on this one


----------



## dhruvmeena96

leapof said:


> Hi guys! I haven't posted in a while but I'm really happy about this new pair I made trying to copy that swirl effect like some of the Noble, Custom Art etc ones, so I wanted to share them with you! Simple GV inside nothing fancy, I was going for aesthetics on this one


Nice looking pair...


And the more I see sexy shells, the more I become sad..
Hahahhahaha

I tried making one more custom shell for my ear and the resin cracked when it was curing.

Now, it is 3D printing for life.


By the way, anybody, who has links for unbranded good cable for iem

On taobao or aliexpress

It should not have brand printed on it


----------



## pace88

leapof said:


> Hi guys! I haven't posted in a while but I'm really happy about this new pair I made trying to copy that swirl effect like some of the Noble, Custom Art etc ones, so I wanted to share them with you! Simple GV inside nothing fancy, I was going for aesthetics on this one


nice dude


----------



## pace88

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Nice looking pair...
> 
> 
> And the more I see sexy shells, the more I become sad..
> ...


I think it will be better if you buy only raw materials, such as cables, pins (mmcx or 2pin), splitters and jacks (plugs) to make your own DIY, you get stronger


----------



## pace88

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Nice looking pair...
> 
> 
> And the more I see sexy shells, the more I become sad..
> ...


OFHC 24 AWG 6N High Purity Copper Cable 2.5/3.5/4.4mm Balanced Earphone Cable With MMCX/2PIN/QDC Connector For ZS10 PRO ZSX C12
https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/tUFP3qku


----------



## Xymordos

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Hello everyone.....
> 
> There is something I would love to ask.
> 
> ...



Try using an Adel module - this seems to produce some really big bass.


----------



## stephensynanta16

leapof said:


> Hi guys! I haven't posted in a while but I'm really happy about this new pair I made trying to copy that swirl effect like some of the Noble, Custom Art etc ones, so I wanted to share them with you! Simple GV inside nothing fancy, I was going for aesthetics on this one


How do you achieve such smooth glossy finish? Did you polish those shell?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Xymordos said:


> Try using an Adel module - this seems to produce some really big bass.


Hhheehhhuuuhh

All the Adel reduces the bass, it is for ear pressure relief.

I want to create something like Rhapsodio clipper but more subbass oriented and way more clean sounding


----------



## pace88

need information, are there any friends who use BA bellsing 90005N ?  , are these series sold freely or special orders


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Oct 27, 2019)

pace88 said:


> need information, are there any friends who use BA bellsing 90005N ?  , are these series sold freely or special orders


Cannot find these driver anywhere

What are the purpose of these driver

A good midrange, tweeter or a woofer???


And one more thing

Final Audio E5000 driver and Aliexpress 6.4mm B&O H5 drivers looks same


----------



## Xymordos

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Hhheehhhuuuhh
> 
> All the Adel reduces the bass, it is for ear pressure relief.
> 
> I want to create something like Rhapsodio clipper but more subbass oriented and way more clean sounding



Ehh really? A half open IEM seems to give some deep and soft bass. Or maybe the Sonion 3700 just gives really deep bass in general?


----------



## pace88

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Cannot find these driver anywhere
> 
> What are the purpose of these driver
> 
> ...


from the design of the maker, he plays in the mid, btw is it okay if I post the picture ba?


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Oct 27, 2019)

Xymordos said:


> Ehh really? A half open IEM seems to give some deep and soft bass. Or maybe the Sonion 3700 just gives really deep bass in general?


Sonion 3700, 3800 and 3300(vent) are bass monster
Sonion 38D1XJ is bass god



pace88 said:


> from the design of the maker, he plays in the mid, btw is it okay if I post the picture ba?


I guess its fine

Just avoid circuits and all.

We want to know the driver



Plus...this thing I want to know
https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/Lmi92R9m

This driver in aliexpress and




And the driver from Final E5000 as seen above(image from final audio website ) looks same
Has same dimension and same driver face plate..

Anybody think the Ali drivers are worth it.


And I want to know good dynamic drivers.. And I mean really good one. Want to shift to dynamic for a change.

I have found the 7mm dynamic drivers from aliexpress outperforming Knowles SR - NWS for some reason


----------



## pace88

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Sonion 3700, 3800 and 3300(vent) are bass monster
> Sonion 38D1XJ is bass god
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## dhruvmeena96

pace88 said:


>


Its a custom driver
Single version of Hearing aid 90050 bellsing


----------



## pace88

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Its a custom driver
> Single version of Hearing aid 90050 bellsing


excellent search dhruv, thank you


----------



## wolkegeist

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Sonion 3700, 3800 and 3300(vent) are bass monster
> Sonion 38D1XJ is bass god
> 
> 
> ...


You can try JVC wood driver or diamond driver. I found the link on taobao, but the diamond ones are quite expensive tho.
https://m.intl.taobao.com/detail/de...dAQ41w&id=592725759114&ns=1&abbucket=9#detail


----------



## Xymordos

wolkegeist said:


> You can try JVC wood driver or diamond driver. I found the link on taobao, but the diamond ones are quite expensive tho.
> https://m.intl.taobao.com/detail/de...dAQ41w&id=592725759114&ns=1&abbucket=9#detail



Yeah, I'd trust these drivers more than the millions of unnamed drivers on Taobao, since even if after countless hours of testing you finally found an excellent driver, it'll be difficult for you to find the exact driver again next time.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Xymordos said:


> Yeah, I'd trust these drivers more than the millions of unnamed drivers on Taobao, since even if after countless hours of testing you finally found an excellent driver, it'll be difficult for you to find the exact driver again next time.


I have heard the name of the taobao seller a lot
Golden voice audio

They have good dynamic drivers..what I have found out..

But for some reason, my google chrome not translating the text, which is making it hard for me to understand..

I was thinking on making something like Tralucent Audio 1plus2 in structure, but slightly more complex tuning design and simulations


----------



## Xymordos

I can help you translate (if its not too difficult) if you PM me the original.


----------



## BigBublik (Oct 28, 2019)

Hello everyone.
I’m reading a few pages about MASM7 and I can’t find the diagram - which drivers and which crossover?
Please get a link to a post or article.

I carefully read most of the forum and found some of the information - Bellsing 10013 + RAB 32257.

But I did not find information about crossover.


----------



## DannyBouwhuis

BigBublik said:


> Hello everyone.
> I’m reading a few pages about MASM7 and I can’t find the diagram - which drivers and which crossover?
> Please get a link to a post or article.
> 
> ...



There's a search bar, just search for MASM7 and read the last few posts


----------



## BigBublik

DannyBouwhuis said:


> There's a search bar, just search for MASM7 and read the last few posts



Therefore, he asked that I did not see information about the crossover.
Do you need to remove and install your Bellsing crossover and install your own?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

BigBublik said:


> Therefore, he asked that I did not see information about the crossover.
> Do you need to remove and install your Bellsing crossover and install your own?


Thats not the crossover but an impedance flattening circuit which goes after BS6.

You dont have to remove anything, just add it


----------



## BigBublik

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Thats not the crossover but an impedance flattening circuit which goes after BS6.
> 
> You dont have to remove anything, just add it



Ok.
This correct link?
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/home-made-iems.430688/page-684#post-15270230


----------



## dhruvmeena96

BigBublik said:


> Ok.
> This correct link?
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/home-made-iems.430688/page-684#post-15270230


yes


----------



## dhruvmeena96

@Xymordos @wolkegeist 

I am trying to do a triple dynamic symmetrical push pull
Do you know any small driver

6mm nearby size 
And a back vent at center

Because I am not able to find one


----------



## Xymordos

dhruvmeena96 said:


> @Xymordos @wolkegeist
> 
> I am trying to do a triple dynamic symmetrical push pull
> Do you know any small driver
> ...



Perhaps this one:
https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1z0d.6639537.1997196601.759.68627484HR1nZe&id=597714609601

Or this whole shop:
https://store.taobao.com/shop/view_...9.68627484HR1nZe&user_number_id=2200714357465

Or this one, when the seller goes online (the seller seems to close the entire shop when he is away for some reason...)
https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1z0d.6639537.1997196601.1011.68627484HR1nZe&id=590288955263


----------



## Themilkman46290

Hello guys, I been reading this thread for a few days, I was hoping you guys could point me in the right direction
My wife has some serious fit issues with iems, we have bought many but they either pop out or they don't get a proper seal. 
So after reading for a wile I decided to try and make and iem for her. 
At first I thought the Knowles GU series would be a good start but then I read the GK series was a big step up, but after reading more and more I am wondering if it maybe better to start with a single b.a. Iem, maybe a sonion 33ap007
What do you guys recommend? 
Is a single a lot easier to tune? 
What single b.a. Do you guys recommend?


----------



## pace88 (Oct 30, 2019)

Themilkman46290 said:


> Hello guys, I been reading this thread for a few days, I was hoping you guys could point me in the right direction
> My wife has some serious fit issues with iems, we have bought many but they either pop out or they don't get a proper seal.
> So after reading for a wile I decided to try and make and iem for her.
> At first I thought the Knowles GU series would be a good start but then I read the GK series was a big step up, but after reading more and more I am wondering if it maybe better to start with a single b.a. Iem, maybe a sonion 33ap007
> ...


yes, start with the simple concept for the first time,( single ba )can use the series ed, rab, bk, other friends might be able to give a more detailed explanation


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Themilkman46290 said:


> Hello guys, I been reading this thread for a few days, I was hoping you guys could point me in the right direction
> My wife has some serious fit issues with iems, we have bought many but they either pop out or they don't get a proper seal.
> So after reading for a wile I decided to try and make and iem for her.
> At first I thought the Knowles GU series would be a good start but then I read the GK series was a big step up, but after reading more and more I am wondering if it maybe better to start with a single b.a. Iem, maybe a sonion 33ap007
> ...


First of all

Sonion 33AP007 is not a good fullrange.

Second.

GU won't be sounding good due to its roll off in treble zone.

See, you can try

Knowles RAB/RAF
Knowles ED29689
Knowles ED26805
Knowles SR32453

For dual driver

Knowles GQ30783
Savant DIY

Etc


----------



## Themilkman46290

dhruvmeena96 said:


> First of all
> 
> Sonion 33AP007 is not a good fullrange.
> 
> ...


Thanks a lot, I guess I will keep reading, but so far I have 2 models in mind
Knowles ED29689
Rab 32063/32033
What tuning filters/tube length (if any) would you recommend?
Do these need addition elements, like cap/res or anything of that sort or can I simply solder and play?

Again thanks a lot for the advise, my wife is pretty excited, she also said thanks


----------



## Kulgrinda

pace88 said:


> yes, start with the simple concept for the first time,( single ba )can use the series ed, rab, bk, other friends might be able to give a more detailed explanation



In my opinion soldering skills for single driver or Knowles stacked up drivers (GQ/GK) is exactly the same - two wires and that's it. In my experience single driver setups are a bit lacking in everything.. If your choice of shell can accommodate GK, I strongly recommend it. You can choose either one or two tubes and use dampers according to your preference. I used green one since I do not like intensive high frequencies, but anything from grey to green are fine. 

To make single driver sound good it takes a lot of effort - zobel cirquit, additional series resistors, horn tubing, Helmholtz resonator, etc. dhruvmeena96 can point you to the right direction. And still they are lacking in spaciousness and bass impact (limitation of the driver).

Popular option is to take ED+18 ohm res + green filter, but it sounded way too bright and sibilant for my ears.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

@Themilkman46290 

For drivers RAB32257 and RAB32033

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/home-made-iems.430688/page-618#post-15009124
(Guide)

https://imgur.com/gallery/6KbsuyT
(Sheet to follow)

these two links are guide to RAB-p Universals


for Custom Shell

add a 3mm ID/3mm lenght tube overlap at the end (https://imgur.com/gallery/6KbsuyT) to make it a horn.


----------



## Themilkman46290

Kulgrinda said:


> In my opinion soldering skills for single driver or Knowles stacked up drivers (GQ/GK) is exactly the same - two wires and that's it. In my experience single driver setups are a bit lacking in everything.. If your choice of shell can accommodate GK, I strongly recommend it. You can choose either one or two tubes and use dampers according to your preference. I used green one since I do not like intensive high frequencies, but anything from grey to green are fine.
> 
> To make single driver sound good it takes a lot of effort - zobel cirquit, additional series resistors, horn tubing, Helmholtz resonator, etc. dhruvmeena96 can point you to the right direction. And still they are lacking in spaciousness and bass impact (limitation of the driver).
> 
> Popular option is to take ED+18 ohm res + green filter, but it sounded way too bright and sibilant for my ears.



So a single driver is more work to tune then a pre assembled staked b.a. 


So what would be the simplest option, keeping size to a minimum (the diems I see here definitely won't fit her) I am looking for simple, small options for now, but in general the work I see you guys doing gets me fairly excited


----------



## Themilkman46290

dhruvmeena96 said:


> @Themilkman46290
> 
> For drivers RAB32257 and RAB32033
> 
> ...


Thanks a lot, is there a way to do this in a smaller form?
Will this be simpler then a pre assembled b.a. Stack like the others I mentioned?

And I just want to say the work that all of you guys do is pretty dam cool, has me very very interested


----------



## eunice

The Finale 2 is quite small, very good sounding and as simple to solder as it gets. It has insane transparency and accuracy, and therefore it's very revealing with regards to flaws in your DAC/AMP.

Knowles FED30048
2Ω resistor in series
Tube: 2mm ID no Damper. 7.5mm length for universal IEM, 14mm length for CIEM version

Knowles ED30761
Tube: 2mm ID 2200Ω (Red) Damper after 1.5mm from nozzle, 3300Ω (Orange) Damper at tip. 9.5mm length for universal IEM, 16mm length for CIEM version.


Otherwise, I am an all time proponent of Bellsing 6 + Z.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Themilkman46290 said:


> Thanks a lot, is there a way to do this in a smaller form?
> Will this be simpler then a pre assembled b.a. Stack like the others I mentioned?
> 
> And I just want to say the work that all of you guys do is pretty dam cool, has me very very interested


First of all, tuning matters.
And ideally you should have single speaker, just that speaker are not so supper efficient to do so, thats why we need crossover..

So, I made the singe BA complex.

It will also get the U version, all the buddies waiting for.
RAB-u(u for ultimate)

For Final 2.. 

You can try that, it is a good iem. Well, tuning was spot on for some reason


----------



## Themilkman46290 (Oct 31, 2019)

I would buy another iem, but I have about 9 so far and my wife uses 0 and I prefer buds,
So after a few hundred dollars thrown away on iems that she doesn't use
I want to try and make them, not buy them

So a 2ohm resistor in series, from what I understood from reading before I just need to attach it straight from the jack to the driver right?
What would be better resistors to use?
Final 2 is this a driver, kit or complete product? I can't find it, only final e2000

Bellsing 6 is this one right

So what kind of values do I need on the cap and resistor for this zobel, I tried searching the thread but didn't see much on bellsing

Is a zobel universal?


----------



## eunice

Finale 2 is the community name of the recipe ( @dhruvmeena96 named it), it is a 2 driver recipe.

The drivers are Knowles FED30048 (available e.g. via mouser) and Knowles ED30761 (available via aliexpress soundlink) The 2 ohm resistor in series is only for the FED30048 driver, the other driver is directly connected to the mmcx jack. 

I use simple SMD 1206 resistors, they work fine. Others here obsess over the differences between resistor types, but at the low currents of an IEM the differences between resistor types is not very much. Its a different story in a speaker crossover with higher currents.

The series resistor is obviously reducing the volume of the FED relative to the ED and not so obviously also shifting the frequency response and the impedance curve.


----------



## eunice (Oct 31, 2019)

Themilkman46290 said:


> Bellsing 6 is this one right
> So what kind of values do I need on the cap and resistor for this zobel, I tried searching the thread but didn't see much on bellsing



This looks more like a Bellsing 5, the Bellsing 6 is officially called Bellsing 10013

Check this post for schematics and my reviews: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/home-made-iems.430688/page-666#post-15167542



Themilkman46290 said:


> Is a zobel universal?



No, it has to be tuned to the drivers you use. It should approximate the inverse of the impedance curve of your drivers so your dac/amp "sees" a constant impedance.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Themilkman46290 said:


> I would buy another iem, but I have about 9 so far and my wife uses 0 and I prefer buds,
> So after a few hundred dollars thrown away on iems that she doesn't use
> I want to try and make them, not buy them
> 
> ...


OK..wait

What's your budget...clear that out first?
Then what's the preference of sound signature?
How many drivers you want?
Do you want custom or universal shell?

Don't jump into building one so quick.....we have too many builds and whole community is here to help.


----------



## Themilkman46290

I guess I should mention, I can't order from mouser, digikey, Farnell, or taobao

Living in Ukraine, so I am locked in with Alliexpress, or I can pay outrageous shipping charges


----------



## eunice

Themilkman46290 said:


> I guess I should mention, I can't order from mouser, digikey, Farnell, or taobao
> 
> Living in Ukraine, so I am locked in with Alliexpress, or I can pay outrageous shipping charges


You won't get the FED from ali express, but mouser should have worldwide free shipping.


----------



## Themilkman46290 (Oct 31, 2019)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> OK..wait
> 
> What's your budget...clear that out first?
> Then what's the preference of sound signature?
> ...



OK, she has a weird ear canal, one ear goes inward (normal) the other takes a sharp turn towards her face and no iems fit, so far the sure body type has stayed put for about 20-30 minutes but they also pop out
Budget, around 70-100 bucks including cable(I will make it, shouldn't be more the 15 bucks or so)
As far as sound goes, she is not treble sensitive but likes a bit of bass, she tends to like neutral with a little bass hump

I was thinking of using a bought iem shell, but I am not closed to the idea of making something, I studied sculpter so it shouldn't be too hard (I have made a lot of moulds)

Maybe I should start a pm? I don't want to junk up your guys thread, or is it cool that I post on here like this?


----------



## Themilkman46290

eunice said:


> You won't get the FED from ali express, but mouser should have worldwide free shipping.


Mouser charges about $30, digikey are the only people that will send, but I need to buy so much before they send and I couldn't get a couple drivers, had to order 25....


----------



## eunice

Your wife needs a custom IEM, the amount of universal models you have tried suggests any universal IEM will pop out. 

While you can build a custom IEM for the budget you state, the tooling and excess material you will need to buy will quickly exceed your budget. If you really want to start building CIEMs calculate approx 400$-500$ in tooling and material for the first working pair, depending on what you have in your workshop and how many tries you need until you have a good pair.

After that you probably will be able to build a pair for ~$20 + the cost of the drivers.


----------



## Choy Wei De

Themilkman46290 said:


> OK, she has a weird ear canal, one ear goes inward (normal) the other takes a sharp turn towards her face and no iems fit, so far the sure body type has stayed put for about 20-30 minutes but they also pop out
> Budget, around 70-100 bucks including cable(I will make it, shouldn't be more the 15 bucks or so)
> As far as sound goes, she is not treble sensitive but likes a bit of bass, she tends to like neutral with a little bass hump
> 
> ...




Normal IEM maker will ask you to go for tip rolling, means try ‘every single’ ear tip in the market. I also have slightly picky ear canal, but I manage to find a few shells that suits me.

Let me know if you have access to Taobao.


----------



## Themilkman46290

Choy Wei De said:


> Normal IEM maker will ask you to go for tip rolling, means try ‘every single’ ear tip in the market. I also have slightly picky ear canal, but I manage to find a few shells that suits me.
> 
> Let me know if you have access to Taobao.


I am not sure if I have access to tao bao, there is a local company that sais the are an agent but there sight is mainly really bad reviews, I was thinking something like this


----------



## Choy Wei De

Themilkman46290 said:


> I am not sure if I have access to tao bao, there is a local company that sais the are an agent but there sight is mainly really bad reviews, I was thinking something like this



I have bad experience with this kind of wire downward and plug straight into the ear. I prefer at least at a angle like Xiaomi earbuds.

I uses this, quite comfortable and good deal if you manage to find the right eartip.


----------



## Themilkman46290

Choy Wei De said:


> I have bad experience with this kind of wire downward and plug straight into the ear. I prefer at least at a angle like Xiaomi earbuds.
> 
> I uses this, quite comfortable and good deal if you manage to find the right eartip.


The problem is one ear doesn't go in, it goes forward then in, so these shells definitely don't fit, but she did use some smaller, xiami buds for a while, sound wasn't great and that's why we started down this rabbit hole.. 
But those are really nice shells


----------



## dhruvmeena96

@Themilkman46290 

Knowles SR32453 + white damper
Take any shell which fits 6.4mm driver(yes, it looks like a dynamic)
Second thing, use spinfi cp220 or 240 twin blade or Final Audio E-type eartips


If you can(which you should), find the zobel for SR and use it.


----------



## wolkegeist

Anyone knows where to buy Sonion E25ST001 driver? I’m searching taobao now but no result yet.


----------



## Xymordos

wolkegeist said:


> Anyone knows where to buy Sonion E25ST001 driver? I’m searching taobao now but no result yet.



These two are the ones I found:

https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?sp...43e535fqeNqqq&id=601464718503&_u=t2dmg8j26111
https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?sp...43e535fqeNqqq&id=601781308392&_u=t2dmg8j26111


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Xymordos said:


> These two are the ones I found:
> 
> https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?sp...43e535fqeNqqq&id=601464718503&_u=t2dmg8j26111
> https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?sp...43e535fqeNqqq&id=601781308392&_u=t2dmg8j26111


That is EST driver

E drivers are different

E driver are Sonion version of WBFK and SWFK
E25 is WBFK replacement with 10ohm DCR and more stable impedance
E50 is SWFK replacement with 5ohm DCR and even more stable impedance.

They are sold by sonion distributor only and mostly used for hearing aid even though I find them better than WBFK and SWFK.


----------



## Xymordos

dhruvmeena96 said:


> That is EST driver
> 
> E drivers are different
> 
> ...



Oh the E driver, I did buy one off a seller before but it seems like the guy never restocked it. He has had 1 in stock for the past year. Perhaps you can ask him if he'll get more. He also has the new Knowles drivers which the A18t seems to use for mids.

https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1z10.3-c.w4002-122340380.75.4db854efKJkuuH&id=559540603086


----------



## Choy Wei De

Xymordos said:


> Oh the E driver, I did buy one off a seller before but it seems like the guy never restocked it. He has had 1 in stock for the past year. Perhaps you can ask him if he'll get more. He also has the new Knowles drivers which the A18t seems to use for mids.
> 
> https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1z10.3-c.w4002-122340380.75.4db854efKJkuuH&id=559540603086



The Tommy store again!!! Haha. He has very good range of Sonion Drivers.


----------



## Themilkman46290

Thanks to all you guys for helping me out, I will keep reading and make sure I understand everything you guys have said fully, i think I found a good option but will study everything twice before I order, and I guess after the order comes through I will post what I was able to come up with

Quick question, how do you get the tube on the Sr driver?


----------



## wolkegeist

Xymordos said:


> Oh the E driver, I did buy one off a seller before but it seems like the guy never restocked it. He has had 1 in stock for the past year. Perhaps you can ask him if he'll get more. He also has the new Knowles drivers which the A18t seems to use for mids.
> 
> https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1z10.3-c.w4002-122340380.75.4db854efKJkuuH&id=559540603086


Oh the Tommy store, I tried to get the drivers once but it’s always 1 in stock lol. I’ll try to contact him.


----------



## wolkegeist (Nov 1, 2019)

Xymordos said:


> Oh the E driver, I did buy one off a seller before but it seems like the guy never restocked it. He has had 1 in stock for the past year. Perhaps you can ask him if he'll get more. He also has the new Knowles drivers which the A18t seems to use for mids.
> 
> https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1z10.3-c.w4002-122340380.75.4db854efKJkuuH&id=559540603086


I asked him but he said he won't order them anymore, he thinks E25ST0001/D is better than E25ST0002/D. he said alot of sonion's driver from China are made in Vietnam, which is where i live ha ha. I'll contact the local branch and see what happen. I'll update later


----------



## Xymordos

wolkegeist said:


> I asked him but he said he won't order them anymore, he thinks E25ST0001/D is better than E25ST0002/D. he said alot of sonion's driver from China are made in Vietnam, which is where i live ha ha. I'll contact the local branch and see what happen. I'll update later



Ah yeah back when I bought he he said it's way too quiet compared to other drivers making it a pain to tune.


----------



## Themilkman46290

So I ordered the SR32453, but can't find anything about any zobel for it, searched on Google and this thread, does a zobel exist for it, or is this something that has never been done? And can anyone pm me and explain if I must discover a zobel for it, will I need to buy 20 different resistors and 20 caps at different values. it seems this  was way more effort then I had anticipated. Or is there some simply way of understanding what values I will need and I'm am just not seeing this?

Thanks


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Themilkman46290 said:


> So I ordered the SR32453, but can't find anything about any zobel for it, searched on Google and this thread, does a zobel exist for it, or is this something that has never been done? And can anyone pm me and explain if I must discover a zobel for it, will I need to buy 20 different resistors and 20 caps at different values. it seems this  was way more effort then I had anticipated. Or is there some simply way of understanding what values I will need and I'm am just not seeing this?
> 
> Thanks


Wait

Zobel

Rz= 40.625ohms(have a close approx of 40.5ohms)
Cz= 4uF


Knowles SR32453


----------



## Themilkman46290

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Wait
> 
> Zobel
> 
> ...




So I need a 40ohm resistor and 4 uf cap?
Thanks again, and can I ask, how do you get these values?
The resistor should match the impedance of the driver? And the cap?

Sorry if I ask to many questions, I downloaded a lot of info on The subject but ended up more lost


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Nov 3, 2019)

Themilkman46290 said:


> So I need a 40ohm resistor and 4 uf cap?
> Thanks again, and can I ask, how do you get these values?
> The resistor should match the impedance of the driver? And the cap?
> 
> Sorry if I ask to many questions, I downloaded a lot of info on The subject but ended up more lost


some derivation from basics to find the inductance of SR(simulations etc).
will need a lot of study before getting in this part

derivation and study would be pretty big if i post here and its my research i am working on right now. how to find thiele parameters and diaphragm weight etc of a BA

still working on it, when its complete for publishing i will share a pdf for it


----------



## wolkegeist

Themilkman46290 said:


> So I need a 40ohm resistor and 4 uf cap?
> Thanks again, and can I ask, how do you get these values?
> The resistor should match the impedance of the driver? And the cap?
> 
> Sorry if I ask to many questions, I downloaded a lot of info on The subject but ended up more lost


There’s a common formular:
R=1.25*Z
C=L/R^2
Z is the impedance of the driver
L is the inductance of the driver

The problem is to find the inductance of said driver tho.


----------



## Themilkman46290

Thanks again, ordered the Sr and a couple sets of rab, now just wait....... 

Thank you all for your help and understanding, me and the wife appreciate your help


----------



## wolkegeist (Nov 4, 2019)

Anyone tried dual RAF + RAB 32257 + a dual tweeter?
I'm thinking RAF series, 20ohm series
RAB 32063
all in zobel 41ohm 4.6uF
then SWFK crossed in 940nF


----------



## dhruvmeena96

wolkegeist said:


> Anyone tried dual RAF + RAB 32257 + a dual tweeter?
> I'm thinking RAF series, 20ohm series
> RAB 32063
> all in zobel 41ohm 4.6uF
> then SWFK crossed in 940nF



What you can do is

Dual RAF series + RAB32063 parallel fullrange

You will get 14.67 DCR
20.97 @500Hz

Inductance would be 4.93mH
Zobel would be
7.2uF and 26ohms



Then SWFK zobel is 
9uF and 8.25ohms

Cross it more carefully now as normal cap value won't work..



Now the issue is that where you cross SWFK, you will see impedance drop from 20ohms to 6ohms in that region of mid to treble transition.

But then you can use inductor and resistor zobel

Since we have Super flat impedance on both crossed tweeter and fullrange woofer(RABx2 series + RAB parallel)

The formula for inductive zobel is more easy and accurate now.

L=C * ((Rt³ * Rw)½)
R= (Rw*Rt)/(Rw + Rt)

C is cap on tweeter (woofer has to be fullrange)
Rt= tweeter resistance(6.6ohms)
Rw= woofer resistance(20.97ohms)

Worry not, inductor would be in microHenries or very small milliHenries. This would be available in SMD I believe.

Zobel on woofer
Zobel on tweeter
Zobel to whole structure...

Triple stack zobel(super flat impedance) and no EMF pushback to amp. More capable to take power but still easily drivable.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Soundlink started selling shells

Nice

https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/l32IlvpA
And the price are cheap


----------



## Kulgrinda

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Soundlink started selling shells
> 
> Nice
> 
> ...


Yes, I've also seen it, price is very good. However judging by the picture shells will need a lot of work to look great. I'll get couple of them next Monday


----------



## wolkegeist

dhruvmeena96 said:


> What you can do is
> 
> Dual RAF series + RAB32063 parallel fullrange
> 
> ...


Oh I read some paper about impedance equalization circuit of speakers, the parallel RC zobel is to flat out the impedance of high frequencies, and then another parallel LRC circuit is to flatten the impedance peak due to Eddy’s current. But it has the very confusing value of Qes and Qms, which I don’t know what they are. The formular is 
L=R(driver)*Qes/(2*pi*f)
C=1/(2*pi*f*R*Qes)
R=R(driver)+(R(driver)*Qes)/Qms


----------



## eunice

Qes and Qms are part of the Thiele/Small speaker parameters, those we do not have and we do not know how to deduce for balanced armatures. If they are at all applicable to balanced armatures.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

wolkegeist said:


> Oh I read some paper about impedance equalization circuit of speakers, the parallel RC zobel is to flat out the impedance of high frequencies, and then another parallel LRC circuit is to flatten the impedance peak due to Eddy’s current. But it has the very confusing value of Qes and Qms, which I don’t know what they are. The formular is
> L=R(driver)*Qes/(2*pi*f)
> C=1/(2*pi*f*R*Qes)
> R=R(driver)+(R(driver)*Qes)/Qms





eunice said:


> Qes and Qms are part of the Thiele/Small speaker parameters, those we do not have and we do not know how to deduce for balanced armatures. If they are at all applicable to balanced armatures.


Its pretty hard to find all the values, because every value has to be derived in another way and small value effects a lot.

It takes a lot of time to find a driver values...its possible to find only by impedance graph and phase graph...

Well, wait till I derive a common formula with taking error values in it.

The value noted above for zobel works by the way...

Not super exact, but works good and flat


----------



## tomekk

In my opinion, the paper calculations for the zobel are not the best, because by mixing the calculations with the experimental values it is possible to achieve a flatter impedance, additionally with brightening the low-pass properties of the zobel.


----------



## et.haan

Hey guys, long time lurker, first time poster. You might know me on reddit as u/et1haan on the r/DIEMS forum. I spoke to Gracie of Soundlink, and asked about the 1723 Acupass, which I got the impression was a fantastic driver. Minimum order was 100 drivers, so 50 orders. Are you guys interested? They seem like a simpler (and honestly, better version of the GV quad.)

Also, I am planning on using the new EST65DA01 that they sell, and I was wondering what you guys thought was optimal for tubing. I was thinking a 1mm-2mm (ID) horn, as short as possible, or just 2mm. I have heard that they absolutely do not need a damper. I plan on using it anywhere from 3k to 7k up.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

et.haan said:


> Hey guys, long time lurker, first time poster. You might know me on reddit as u/et1haan on the r/DIEMS forum. I spoke to Gracie of Soundlink, and asked about the 1723 Acupass, which I got the impression was a fantastic driver. Minimum order was 100 drivers, so 50 orders. Are you guys interested? They seem like a simpler (and honestly, better version of the GV quad.)
> 
> Also, I am planning on using the new EST65DA01 that they sell, and I was wondering what you guys thought was optimal for tubing. I was thinking a 1mm-2mm (ID) horn, as short as possible, or just 2mm. I have heard that they absolutely do not need a damper. I plan on using it anywhere from 3k to 7k up.


your the one who made SR32453 with white damper in JBL earbud
nice

1723 Acupass is plug and play
it depends which version of 1723 you are going to use
normal 1723 is slightly V-shape and a pretty good driver

there is one with support of external crossover(forgot the actual exact name....the /number part)
that can be tuned according to taste and has way more potential...

but i would love, if they give 1723 without the PCB at back and any type of solder...like raw 1723

that would be crazy fun to tune


----------



## et.haan

dhruvmeena96 said:


> your the one who made SR32453 with white damper in JBL earbud
> nice



yeah, thats me lol. Heres a link https://www.reddit.com/r/DIEMs/comments/dhl5zn/single_driver_sr32453_build/  and the diagram: https://www.reddit.com/r/DIEMs/comments/dhygor/exploded_view_of_my_last_build/ I also wrote this, https://www.reddit.com/r/DIEMs/comments/cbng8t/a_4_page_paper_of_how_sound_tubes_affect_iems_in/ based off of some findings. It is is open to edits. 

I left some impressions of the build on the first page. I was very impressed with that driver. I started the build as re-inspiration to my 6 driver build and it was pretty good at that. With a good source, the sound is quite impressive. Very neutral. That forum isn't doing so well activity wise, so I figured I should join here. FYI: I am a broke HS student, and have not had much experience with high end IEM's, so you may see me compare IEM's to headphones. Sorry, lol. 

As for which driver to buy, thats up to you guys. I have no clue if she could buy 50 of one and 50 of another. That would be optimal. If I remember right, she said she would sell for 33 bucks. Not a bad price, especially compared to the GV. The single spout could be very easy for newbies to tune, and by only looking at graphs, I think I would prefer the 1723. However, the GV has 2 spouts, with room for more acoustic tuning.


----------



## wolkegeist (Nov 7, 2019)

et.haan said:


> yeah, thats me lol. Heres a link https://www.reddit.com/r/DIEMs/comments/dhl5zn/single_driver_sr32453_build/  and the diagram: https://www.reddit.com/r/DIEMs/comments/dhygor/exploded_view_of_my_last_build/ I also wrote this, https://www.reddit.com/r/DIEMs/comments/cbng8t/a_4_page_paper_of_how_sound_tubes_affect_iems_in/ based off of some findings. It is is open to edits.
> 
> I left some impressions of the build on the first page. I was very impressed with that driver. I started the build as re-inspiration to my 6 driver build and it was pretty good at that. With a good source, the sound is quite impressive. Very neutral. That forum isn't doing so well activity wise, so I figured I should join here. FYI: I am a broke HS student, and have much experience with high end IEM's, so you may see me compare IEM's to headphones. Sorry, lol.
> 
> As for which driver to buy, thats up to you guys. I have no clue if she could buy 50 of one and 50 of another. That would be optimal. If I remember right, she said she would sell for 33 bucks. Not a bad price, especially compared to the GV. The single spout could be very easy for newbies to tune, and by only looking at graphs, I think I would prefer the 1723. However, the GV has 2 spouts, with room for more acoustic tuning.


I used LS400 driver, which is a combination of Sonion 1700(??) and Sonion 2389, which is kinda similar to 1723 but without acupass. Formula as below:
2389 +2.2uF
1700 parallel
20ohm series
Then a Cpad of 50ohm parallel and 3.3 ohm series. This is for a little bit of attenuation.
Tube is 14mm 2ID with no damper.
Then pair them with an ED-30761, tube is 16mm 1ID, red damper at 5mm, orange damper at end.
Sound is Finale 2 level of detail, with strong bass, clear mid, treble is a little bit roll-off and fast decay.
Here’s a pic, I’m a horrible shell maker, I know! I’m waiting for the faceplate to dry because I use A-B resin tho, so here’s a naked pic lol.


----------



## et.haan

wolkegeist said:


> I used LS400 driver, which is a combination of Sonion 1700(??) and Sonion 2389, which is kinda similar to 1723 but without acupass. Formula as below:
> 2389 +2.2uF
> 1700 parallel
> 20ohm series
> ...


Nice! I have been up past 4, multiple days in a row, trying to get good shells. It takes lots of work, and every part matters. Very frustrating, but very rewarding. If you are using krystalloid, something that I tried the other night that seems to work well is to leave the impression (in the cuff, with the mold pourd) in a warming oven for like an hour, at 120-130 degrees. Helps the bubbles rise to the surface. 

is the 1700 low, ed mid and 2300 high? 

The 1723 seems to be totally different, with 2 drivers joined together. https://www.sonion.com/wp-content/uploads/1723_AN_1723_AcuPAss_Rev002.pdf It seems as if the zone between them (that goes to the snout) acts as a resonant chamber, and flattens response. I think the response is pretty impressive, but with how flat most ED's are, I couldnt imagine yours being far from it, if with less of a V. 

The driver has tons of specs that are awesome for reference. 

Also, how did you do tuning for your drivers? I have seen all the RC filtering calculators online, but with how flat IEM response isnt really flat, I am not sure how this could be done.

My current plan is to hook up the 3 seperate drivers to 3 different Audioquest dragonfly red DAC's, and then actively tune using an active EQ program like Equilizer APO. I would then write down the levels of attenuation and slopes of highpass / lowpass and calculate for a passive circuit. I would use Arta or VitiuxCAD for calculating optimal circuity, along with parallel vs series. 

Does this seem to be the best way to get there? I would have used something like a DBX Driverack (used in PA), but its output is like 400 ohms. Lol.
I saw on UE's Instagram their first tuning rig, which seemed fairly similar, just passively. Used some pots, and I am guessing they swapped out caps till they got what they liked.


----------



## wolkegeist (Nov 7, 2019)

et.haan said:


> Nice! I have been up past 4, multiple days in a row, trying to get good shells. It takes lots of work, and every part matters. Very frustrating, but very rewarding. If you are using krystalloid, something that I tried the other night that seems to work well is to leave the impression (in the cuff, with the mold pourd) in a warming oven for like an hour, at 120-130 degrees. Helps the bubbles rise to the surface.
> 
> is the 1700 low, ed mid and 2300 high?
> 
> ...


The ED-30761 is a surprisingly good woofer, check it’s frequency response chart man. 1700 is mid, 2389 is upper mid/tweeter.
The ED one is very tricky because it has no nozzle, I have to use tube shrink to connect it to the tube.

I used Craft Arrange UV resin for the shell, and A-B resin for faceplate. I tried using A-B resin for the shell too, but maybe I’m not good at mixing them, so they always kinda not solid, they also need a negative mold too, it’s very frustrated to work with them, but they’re cheaper than UV tho.

Also find some good X7R caps and metal film resistor. I personally use NPO caps for high frequencies, because they have a very tiny drift rate per temperature, and X7R caps for everything else. Try this shop: https://shop479070434.taobao.com/ca...&search=y&catName=%B6%A8%D6%C6%B6%FA%BB%FA#bd

I’m saving to buy a mic rig from Behringer, because they are provided locally, so now I kinda test with my ears haha.


----------



## et.haan

wolkegeist said:


> The ED-30761 is a surprisingly good woofer, check it’s frequency response chart man. 1700 is mid, 2389 is upper mid/tweeter.
> The ED one is very tricky because it has no nozzle, I have to use tube shrink to connect it to the tube.
> 
> I used Craft Arrange UV resin for the shell, and A-B resin for faceplate. I tried using A-B resin for the shell too, but maybe I’m not good at mixing them, so they always kinda not solid, they also need a negative mold too, it’s very frustrated to work with them, but they’re cheaper than UV tho.
> ...



I really want to experiment with that snoutless ED. It seems The Sonion TIA driver is that, but on a SWFK. I feel it due its lack of a nozzle, you could do a fantastic, smooth horn with shrink wrap. I would love to try that soon. I feel it could be used as a woofer or a tweeter, based on tubing.

I havent tried anything but Dreve, so I cant comment on that. . If you can afford it/get it shipped, it is fantastic. 

I think I will use Knowles caps from mouser, I remember they had some that they marketed mainly for HiFi. However, that is still pretty far away. 

I feel like a mic is only really good for demonstrating results. Or testing without a shell. However, I feel like I would rather experiment with the drivers in the shell. Ill have to be careful with handling.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Nov 7, 2019)

et.haan said:


> I really want to experiment with that snoutless ED. It seems The Sonion TIA driver is that, but on a SWFK. I feel it due its lack of a nozzle, you could do a fantastic, smooth horn with shrink wrap. I would love to try that soon. I feel it could be used as a woofer or a tweeter, based on tubing.
> 
> I havent tried anything but Dreve, so I cant comment on that. . If you can afford it/get it shipped, it is fantastic.
> 
> ...


Sonion Tia???

The lack of nozzle has only one advantage, and that is reduced resonance(which is also small)

And how you gonna control the smooth guide when making..want to know bro


Plus, you were getting it wrong... ED30761 is not a tweeter at all.... It is a pure woofer, even the impedance also says that. You might do a high pass... But its better to use a specific nature of driver for specific applications.
ED30761 is a woofer and a fullrange.

Try getting the e.Audio Dual Knowles ED29689 (Knowles dont make one)

Or Sonion 2389 D


Or

If you can find, Find the Knowles EJ23026

I will make this guide per Knowles EJ23036
Desolder its connection(the two drivers are wired in series)

And make them parallel

Then take two ED30761 in parallel...

We can help you on making the adapter for holding two ED30761 with a spout to attach tube easily.

So its EJ23026 and ED30761x2
Tubing is of noble savant.
Damper spec is of noble savant


Its now quad driver

Add a 10ohm series resistor to whole circuit because this setup is very low impedance and above 120dB.

This will level it down to 118dB(which is still loud) and make it 18ohms

Compared to 124dB at 8ohms


This build is still in prototype stage.

I think EJ in parallel is very loud.
24ohms @ 110dB @ DCR
2kHz is over 120dB in series(stock config) and in parallel, it gets to 125dB.

So, I will try to make an Zobel and then a L-pad for EJ23026.. To make it behave like ED29689, lower its volume to ED29689 + 20ohms and then use a ED30761(single only)


----------



## et.haan

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Sonion Tia???
> 
> The lack of nozzle has only one advantage, and that is reduced resonance(which is also small)
> 
> ...


I always thought that 64 uses the WBFK for their tweeter. Maybe https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jguxmYfEmZdHEGIUDvQUnfm3vhxo51WeNKKG0_oRtMA/pubhtml# is wrong, but I do not know. We can only tear one apart to find out. 

Interesting. I dont totally understand the point of a snoutless woofer, only tweeter. 

I am currently planning on using the 26805 for my next build. Impedence seemed good to combine with the HODVTEC and EST. Unless you have a better idea. 

EJ looks very interesting. I would like to try it as a mid, or a full range driver. 

What are your thoughts on a dual HODVTEC? I plan on using the 31618. I thought the impedance was a little low, and  series could help that. I want a deep extension. I am only concerned with the lowering output of the HODVTEC. I have heard that it will kill subbass. Is this true? Would an  L-pad to fix this? How much could a Zobel cicuit reduce the ouput? I think it will only play to 180hz or so, with a first order lowpass, in order to keep phase under control. 

What are your thoughts on zobel for EST? Too crazy?

Also, I am not sure if you are translating (in which if you are, I am going crazy), but I think your English is getting better.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

et.haan said:


> I always thought that 64 uses the WBFK for their tweeter. Maybe https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jguxmYfEmZdHEGIUDvQUnfm3vhxo51WeNKKG0_oRtMA/pubhtml# is wrong, but I do not know. We can only tear one apart to find out.
> 
> Interesting. I dont totally understand the point of a snoutless woofer, only tweeter.
> 
> ...




LoL bro..

English.
My English is fine... India is largest English speaking country...( History lesson bro)

Britishers ruled us for 200years...and we were involved in World war I and II...so my English should be fine.... If not.. I will try to improve


Snoutless/Spoutless(we call it spoutless here..lol) driver are made to have less mechanical resonance of spout.. Commonly used as hearing aid driver and by avoiding resonance from driver, they can tune it nicely to eardrum mechanical loss or basilar impedance.

These driver has pretty nicely placed peaks and often slightly less strong compared to spout version. They are softer sound

Compare ED30761 and ED23147. They are pretty much same driver but due to spout, the peak looks sharper in ED23147.

Tia Driver is something I dont know, but it doesnt look like sonion by its diaphragm image.


EJ driver is amazing, and if tuned proper, can look better than ER4.

Plus error rate in impedance lowers which make them more easy for hand matching amazing.

Dual HODVTEC or just HODVTEC(High Output Dual Vented TEC) is amazing.

Zobel doesnt reduce volume or sensitivity. It changes the way signal reach to ear. Amp see a flat load . how it does 

Lemme explain simply.

You select a capacitor according to its inductance, do a low pass by increasing those frequency resistance or impedance. The you parallel a resistor or called as a decouple resistor.

It decouples the cap, which means opposing force to tune. This resistor after cap is seen as parallel to those High frequency impedance increasing, making the lowpass revert back to normal response, but now resistor being parallel is seem to look more flatter

This doesnt even change the FR. But perception of sibilance and harshness is reduced and flattened out, which makes it smoother and detailed.

This happens because zobel also effect air loading factor and air or distance factor.

You have more air loaded and less air resistance(these are mechanical factor, we compensate it electrically)

Zobel is like making suspension upgrade.

Will write more after sometime(I am busy)


----------



## wolkegeist

et.haan said:


> I always thought that 64 uses the WBFK for their tweeter. Maybe https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jguxmYfEmZdHEGIUDvQUnfm3vhxo51WeNKKG0_oRtMA/pubhtml# is wrong, but I do not know. We can only tear one apart to find out.
> 
> Interesting. I dont totally understand the point of a snoutless woofer, only tweeter.
> 
> ...


I tried many different type of caps man, idk about knowles caps but they’re probably X5R caps. For audio I think film caps and NP0 caps are the kings because of their low drift rate. But film caps are huge so they probably not gonna fit in a shell tho lol


----------



## et.haan

dhruvmeena96 said:


> LoL bro..
> 
> English.
> My English is fine... India is largest English speaking country...( History lesson bro)
> ...


I think I understand, that the Zobel only improves response with a less than optimal source, flatening the load. That makes more sense. 

It seems like a zobel would be less effective on a woofer, and most effective on a tweeter/super tweeter. However, I doubt my suspicion, as I see you mainly use it on mids. Why not use it on tweeters? With less air resistance, it seems like it would be a great choice for the EST. But I do not know for sure. 

I currently have a ED-26805 for a  a mid driver. Any better choices with the est? And I have both CL and HODVTEC, but I got the impression that if done right, the HODVTEC is better. It should have as long as a tube as possible.

Also, I saw you post about the 38D1XJ007Mi/8a. It has amazing extension. What are your thoughts on using this instead of the HODVTEC? i will probably leave vents open. I know that is is easier to make good IEM's with many attempts, learning from each one, but I cant help but want this one to be better.

I feel like Sonion is king in terms of  incredibly expensive drivers, that are much less of a broadband design than the Knowles products. Would you agree? I see Knowles as better for widepand use. And they are much cheaper.


----------



## et.haan

wolkegeist said:


> I tried many different type of caps man, idk about knowles caps but they’re probably X5R caps. For audio I think film caps and NP0 caps are the kings because of their low drift rate. But film caps are huge so they probably not gonna fit in a shell tho lol


Yeah, like the stuff used in amps. Ill have to experiment as well. If i remember right, those were a bit warmer? My video prod. teacher used to do pro sound, and we talked for a bit about those.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

et.haan said:


> I think I understand, that the Zobel only improves response with a less than optimal source, flatening the load. That makes more sense.
> 
> It seems like a zobel would be less effective on a woofer, and most effective on a tweeter/super tweeter. However, I doubt my suspicion, as I see you mainly use it on mids. Why not use it on tweeters? With less air resistance, it seems like it would be a great choice for the EST. But I do not know for sure.
> 
> ...


Zobel is effective on every driver. woofer improves a lot with zobel, but doesnt make a lot of sense when you have a zobel fullrange running. i dont do it with mids but mostly with a fullrange, because that fullrange flat impedance would react with all the other cross driver and make it flat

but if i go full crossover, then i prefer to have crossover on all the drivers

about Sonion 38D1XJ007Mi/8, its pre damped with Acu-pass(Which avoids the damper and electronic Crossover) and has higher amount inductive kick. This makes the driver more bassy. It is louder than HODVTEC and CI and go till 10Hz(No roll-off).

About Sonion, i used to think that once open a time.....But then, at one scary night, i was introduced to the FerroFluid drivers by knowles


About ED26805, it can be used with less damping compared to ED29689. The peaks in this driver seems to be quieter.

any thing can be paired with EST.... Make sure to cross it higher than general SWFK


----------



## et.haan

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Zobel is effective on every driver. woofer improves a lot with zobel, but doesnt make a lot of sense when you have a zobel fullrange running. i dont do it with mids but mostly with a fullrange, because that fullrange flat impedance would react with all the other cross driver and make it flat
> 
> but if i go full crossover, then i prefer to have crossover on all the drivers
> 
> ...


That makes sense. For some reason, I think (In my head) ED and RAB/RAF are mids. Its really just ED (and BK) that are mids. 

If I use the 38D1XJ007Mi/8, do I even need a lowpass? the slope is already pretty steep, and seems optimal for a woofer.  I would need to quiet it a lot, the EST is quiet. 

What is it about FerroFluid drivers that you love? This is the RAF series, right?

For the the 26805, I was feeling about the same. I would do a bandpass, with highpass at 180-250hz (depending on where I cross the woofer) and pull it back out at 3-7k. The higher I cross it, the more the tubing matters (for shaping response/peaks), right? Probably a green filter, at about 5 or 6 mm. 

EST.... I have seen on Sonion doc that the EST should be put in after 7k, but on Vision ears elysium, they have it crossed at like 3k, maybe 4k (i havent heard, only seen in reviews). They say it gives a great timbre and speed to the mids. Ill have to test. Thoughts?

Is there any driver that you have heard that you would say is actually bad?

Thank you so much for your time and help.


----------



## Xymordos

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Zobel is effective on every driver. woofer improves a lot with zobel, but doesnt make a lot of sense when you have a zobel fullrange running. i dont do it with mids but mostly with a fullrange, because that fullrange flat impedance would react with all the other cross driver and make it flat
> 
> but if i go full crossover, then i prefer to have crossover on all the drivers
> 
> ...



What's some nice ferro fluid drivers you recommend that I can find easily?


----------



## wolkegeist

et.haan said:


> That makes sense. For some reason, I think (In my head) ED and RAB/RAF are mids. Its really just ED (and BK) that are mids.
> 
> If I use the 38D1XJ007Mi/8, do I even need a lowpass? the slope is already pretty steep, and seems optimal for a woofer.  I would need to quiet it a lot, the EST is quiet.
> 
> ...


It’s the FED-30048.
EST should be crossed at 13kHz up to 14kHz, it’s better to be a super tweeter, it still need a tweeter.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

et.haan said:


> That makes sense. For some reason, I think (In my head) ED and RAB/RAF are mids. Its really just ED (and BK) that are mids.
> 
> If I use the 38D1XJ007Mi/8, do I even need a lowpass? the slope is already pretty steep, and seems optimal for a woofer.  I would need to quiet it a lot, the EST is quiet.
> 
> ...


Can you sharp band pass EST.. If you can, then use EST low.

Otherwise, use it is super tweeter




Xymordos said:


> What's some nice ferro fluid drivers you recommend that I can find easily?


Drivers having extra F in front in Knowles.

FFC and FED.


----------



## wolkegeist

Hey @dhruvmeena96, can you explain what is half tap and center tap is and what it does to drivers.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

wolkegeist said:


> Hey @dhruvmeena96, can you explain what is half tap and center tap is and what it does to drivers.


Half Tap or center tap is the same thing
it means, you are using the center tap as your terminal rather than a positive or a negative
if you centertap with positive terminal free, Centertap becomes positive
same with negative terminal

it taps in between your driver inductor coil or voice coil
reducing the Impedance and inductive kick of driver and make it act like a tweeter
 how does it act like a tweeter...

well, now you have a driver which has less impedance(flatter too) with half the inductive nature plus the unused coil dampens the response of bass as it makes the driver to come out less in low frequency(Less excursion)

Helps ED29689 to have less mids and bass and flatter impedance helps in better crossing


----------



## wolkegeist

Nice @dhruvmeena96 , but how do you measure/know inductance of drivers? I can’t find any paper about inductance of balanced armatures. This would really help me making zobel circuit.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

wolkegeist said:


> Nice @dhruvmeena96 , but how do you measure/know inductance of drivers? I can’t find any paper about inductance of balanced armatures. This would really help me making zobel circuit.


will post the formula soon/ actually the whole paper
there is an easy formula which gives nearby inductance
and a complex formula which will take pages when calculating

but both are long and you might have to find Cmes and other parameter first
and it is very long

i might make a calculator app for this


----------



## wolkegeist

dhruvmeena96 said:


> will post the formula soon/ actually the whole paper
> there is an easy formula which gives nearby inductance
> and a complex formula which will take pages when calculating
> 
> ...


Ahh it doesn’t matter how many pages it’ll take, I’m good at math lol. I’ll read both papers as soon as you post them. Gimme them knowledge!


----------



## dhruvmeena96

I want to ask, what will happen if we center pass the CI-22955


----------



## ForceMajeure

dhruvmeena96 said:


> I want to ask, what will happen if we center pass the CI-22955


you get more output for the midrange compared to bass, much linear response from the lower mids to the first bump


----------



## ForceMajeure (Nov 9, 2019)

here I have just measured...you could have done it yourself though...iirc it's not the first time you are asking.

 
grey center tap
yellow regular. (no tubing,no damper. spout against the mic for both)

red impedance response is the regular
green center tapped.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Nov 9, 2019)

ForceMajeure said:


> here I have just measured...you could have done it yourself though...iirc it's not the first time you are asking.
> 
> grey center tap
> yellow regular. (no tubing,no damper. spout against the mic for both)
> ...


Thanks
@ForceMajeure

What if
We parallel centertap CI and add a zobel and a series resistor of 20ohms

And then use just a tube shared by the both spouts.

It might sound like ER4 with slight warmth

But from what I feel

The CI-22955 looks like a amazing fullrange to me now


----------



## et.haan (Nov 10, 2019)

Got my first “perfect” shell. If only I knew to shake the damn fotoplast.

I swear, they’re only good past 2 AM.

I spoke to Chris at Lightning Enterprises, and he said that they will have Fotoplast S IO LV some time soon, whenever they order next.

https://imgur.com/gallery/rzvY8dX not sure if link works


----------



## et.haan

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Can you sharp band pass EST.. If you can, then use EST low.
> 
> Otherwise, use it is super tweeter
> 
> ...


Got that. But _why _do you like them so much? How are they different? Applicable to multi-driver builds?


----------



## itsnotLupus (Nov 10, 2019)

Hi guys,

Newbie here, my journey begun in ChiFi world with TRN V90 then Blon 03, started a small FLAC files collection and a cheap Apple USB-C DAC, everythig has been a great experience for my ears. I'm well aware that there are a lot of areas for improvement in my current setup. About month ago I was getting ready for 11.11 looking for an IEM upgrade when I ended up discovering CIEM wonders. One thing led to another (thanks @guiping0922 for adding the Zobel notes in the description and diagram in Soundlink's Ali store) and ended up reading every post in here since the Bellsing 10013 Zobel creation. Tried to read, digest and understand as much as possible according to my abilities before starting to ask stupid questions, my shopping list has been in changing constantly, now here I'm with my stupid questions anyway.

I'm aiming for the MASM 7 in an universal fit shell for now, worst case scenario (which is not bad at all and was my initial plan), I end up with BS6Z and also with a pair of RAB drivers for another set.

1. If I understand correctly MASM 7 is BS6Z + any of the different RAB flavors. Because I'm looking for the most balanced profile and details I think RAB32063 will be the one to choose. is this correct?
2. Is this the correct Zobel for the RAB32063 in this setup?
Rz= 38ohms
Cz= 5uF
3. What is the tubing size and configuration for RAB32063, In case 1.2mm ID is needed, what would be better to substitute with, 1.0mm or 1.50mm ID?
Outside tube: 2mmID 16mm length
Inside tube: 1mmID 2mmOD. 4mm length, 2mm space, 2mm length
4. RAB32063 requires no dampers right ?
5. I have LOCA tp-2500F (phone screen UV glue) is this good enough for glueing spout/tubes and or faceplates?
6. In case that 5. answer is no, what is recommended for glueing spout/tubes and what should be avoided ? (I was not able to find bluetac on Ali).
7. Do you think is possible to fit MASM 7 in this shell https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000286095395.html?spm=a2g0o.cart.0.0.18e73c002YdEGQ&mp=1 ?
8. Way less important, any suggestion on eartips ?


Thanks in advance for your time and patience, and sorry if I did it hard to read.


----------



## stephensynanta16

itsnotLupus said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Newbie here, my journey begun in ChiFi world with TRN V90 then Blon 03, started a small FLAC files collection and a cheap Apple USB-C DAC, everythig has been a great experience for my ears. I'm well aware that there are a lot of areas for improvement in my current setup. About month ago I was getting ready for 11.11 looking for an IEM upgrade when I ended up discovering CIEM wonders. One thing led to another (thanks @guiping0922 for adding the Zobel notes in the description and diagram in Soundlink's Ali store) and ended up reading every post in here since the Bellsing 10013 Zobel creation. Tried to read, digest and understand as much as possible according to my abilities before starting to ask stupid questions, my shopping list has been in changing constantly, now here I'm with my stupid questions anyway.
> 
> ...


1. Yep, i've build one using 32033, it lacks treble, 32063 might be the better choice.
3. didn't we should use 2mm ID? 1.2mm is when you're gonna build a resonator inside the tube? CMIIW
4. Yep, damperless
5. It might be good, but please be cautious of the glue seeping someplace you dont want, such as the BA spout or vent.
6. Stay away from cyanoacrylate based glue, those glue had nasty fumes.
8. Final E Clear, it uplift the treble a little bit and supressing the midbass a bit. Or some cheap KZ Starline, use the smallest size possible, MASM7 sounds better on deep fit, IMO.


----------



## Xymordos

Hey guys, just did an interesting measurement of the 10mm planars.

So I got my friend to 3D print an enclosure that fits 2 drivers face to face. Yellow is if I put 1 driver and sealed the other end. Pink is if I put two drivers in parallel, face to face. Green is if I wired them out of phase (just for fun). Are the spikes in green the distortions (as the two drivers should cancel each other out right)?


----------



## et.haan

Hey guys, I got my EST's, but with them, I also ordered the Dreve polishing paste, which they call "Kunstsoff-Polierpaste" Resin polishing paste. I have no clue how to use it. I am guessing a microfiber + a little water and rub the hell out of it. I also got the polishing wheel. Yes, I have lack3 aswell, but I want to try this too.

I appreceate all the tips you guys have about making the shells clear. Glycerin in the shell once its hollow has helped so much.


----------



## eunice (Nov 11, 2019)

Just put the polishing wheel on a dremel and  touch the polishing paste with the rotating polishing wheel and then on the shell to polish. Remember this is just for the finishing touch, so you should use a very fine grit sanding wheel before using the polishing paste.


----------



## et.haan

eunice said:


> Just put the polishing wheel on a dremel and  touch the polishing paste with the rotating polishing wheel and then on the shell to polish. Remember this is just for the finishing touch, so you should use a very fine grit sanding wheel before using the polishing paste.



Thanks. Before or after the lack3? How well does this stuff work?


----------



## eunice

If you use Lack3 you do not need the polish, it is even counter productive as Lack3 sticks better to a slightly rough surface.  

I struggled a lot with Lack3 so I used the polishing paste to get a nice finish. You do get a smooth finish that is comfortable to wear, but it’s not as glossy as the finish with lack (if you do figure out how to use Lack3)


----------



## et.haan

eunice said:


> If you use Lack3 you do not need the polish, it is even counter productive as Lack3 sticks better to a slightly rough surface.
> 
> I struggled a lot with Lack3 so I used the polishing paste to get a nice finish. You do get a smooth finish that is comfortable to wear, but it’s not as glossy as the finish with lack (if you do figure out how to use Lack3)


Thanks again. Any good tutorials you know for the lack3? Mine are decent, but I have some bubbles, and would love to know if I am doing it right.


----------



## et.haan

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Half Tap or center tap is the same thing
> it means, you are using the center tap as your terminal rather than a positive or a negative
> if you centertap with positive terminal free, Centertap becomes positive
> same with negative terminal
> ...


ED26805... Regular, or center tap? Mid driver, from ~180-250-~6k. Any affect on freq. response?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

et.haan said:


> ED26805... Regular, or center tap? Mid driver, from ~180-250-~6k. Any affect on freq. response?


ED26805 doesnt have a center tap.. Its a rubber seal for vent


----------



## et.haan (Nov 11, 2019)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> ED26805 doesnt have a center tap.. Its a rubber seal for vent


lol you are right, sorry, I wasn’t at my desk.

I found something I think you will find interesting.  The nozzles/spouts of drivers can twist off, and leave the driver intact. These were a dead TWFK and HODVTEC, off of a GV
https://imgur.com/gallery/MSV84Oi

Judging by the fact that they have different vent shapes, I think it is possible that that spout less ED could be another off the shelf ED. 

Also, does anybody with a SWFK/TWFK want to try this, right in the tip of the canal on an IEM, and compare it to 64 audio TIA? I am not sure about the damping still, maybe they use a RAF for ferrofluid.

After this build if nobody does i’ll throw a TWFK (no spout) and a CL in a shell for science.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

et.haan said:


> lol you are right, sorry, I wasn’t at my desk.
> 
> I found something I think you will find interesting.  The nozzles/spouts of drivers can twist off, and leave the driver intact. These were a dead TWFK and HODVTEC, off of a GV
> https://imgur.com/gallery/MSV84Oi
> ...


Spoutless ED will be slightly higher resonance frequency, and the strength of that frequency would be lower by a slight.

And you can try taking the top part of WBFK30019 off by a high accuracy laser assisted CNC.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

@et.haan 

I will give you a build 

2 drivers

CI-30120 + 10ohms(red damper @ 2mm )
Tube is 9mm/2mm ID



ED26805
Tube is 8mm/2mm ID


----------



## et.haan (Nov 12, 2019)

oh 





dhruvmeena96 said:


> Spoutless ED will be slightly higher resonance frequency, and the strength of that frequency would be lower by a slight.
> 
> And you can try taking the top part of WBFK30019 off by a high accuracy laser assisted CNC.


I got it off, without damaging the driver. Check out the imgur link above

It is safe to say that TIA is a SWFK (edit its NOT, its a WBFK, a single driver.) with no nozzle. Here is a photo from Crinacle of the tia on the n8. I think they all use the same driver.


I know they say that removing a spout will greatly affect sound, But I want to try.


----------



## et.haan

dhruvmeena96 said:


> @et.haan
> 
> I will give you a build
> 
> ...


It sounds interesting. But I don’t know how much HF it has. I already have 26805 to be used in my EST build. Ill buy another, and I’ll have a CL-22955 left over. Did you chose other CL for impedance? 


 

Looks good so far


----------



## et.haan

SVTong said:


> That's the setup I'm currently using. The dampers don't boost bass, they just block out certain frequencies.  I'm wondering if I bypass the built in crossover if that would help.



I know this is like, 2 years old, but if you are still building, I have a theory I want to test. And I want it recently posted in this forum so it can be confirmed. Dampers are "filters", but really, they are just "pneumatic resistors." (I don't know of a better term) This means they slow down air. If you look at the FFT waterfall plot of a BA earphone, you will notice how incredibly fast the decay is. Compare this to a normal dynamic's waterfall plot.  These filters add that pneumatic resistance, and slow down a driver. It is a side affect that they flatten response and roll off HF. This is why it is said that a BA woofer earphone requires more volume than a dynamic to have a "flat" sounding response. It is physcoacoustics.  I see companies like 64 using yellow and red filters on their woofer, notably the a12, which is said to have a fantastic, rich bass, that sounds like a dynamic. They use regular ol' DTEC drivers. Until proven otherwise, this is what I believe, and will use on my next build. I am on like, page 12 of my acoustics handbook that everybody here says to read. Maybe it is in that. 

But it is just a theory I have.


----------



## et.haan (Nov 13, 2019)

I found the Tia high driver, WBFK-30019, (sold on mouser). It is also called the WBFK-60025. I dont know why it has 2 names. I am sure that this is the driver we are looking for.
Tech specs: https://www.knowles.com/docs/default-source/model-downloads/wbfk-30019-000.pdf
mouser listing, know that the image is wrong: https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Knowles/WBFK-30019-000?qs=3unH/Dqlvl9zo75uZO9NyA==
Taobao: https://world.taobao.com/item/575428230148.htm?spm=a21wu.11804641-tw.0.0.78e91a4cZWgikX
another taobao: https://world.taobao.com/item/584263834727.htm?spm=a21wu.12321156-tw.0.0.72b9677fNq41HW


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Nov 13, 2019)

et.haan said:


> I know this is like, 2 years old, but if you are still building, I have a theory I want to test. And I want it recently posted in this forum so it can be confirmed. Dampers are "filters", but really, they are just "pneumatic resistors." (I don't know of a better term) This means they slow down air. If you look at the FFT waterfall plot of a BA earphone, you will notice how incredibly fast the decay is. Compare this to a normal dynamic's waterfall plot.  These filters add that pneumatic resistance, and slow down a driver. It is a side affect that they flatten response and roll off HF. This is why it is said that a BA woofer earphone requires more volume than a dynamic to have a "flat" sounding response. It is physcoacoustics.  I see companies like 64 using yellow and red filters on their woofer, notably the a12, which is said to have a fantastic, rich bass, that sounds like a dynamic. They use regular ol' DTEC drivers. Until proven otherwise, this is what I believe, and will use on my next build. I am on like, page 12 of my acoustics handbook that everybody here says to read. Maybe it is in that.
> 
> But it is just a theory I have.


Please dont mention the drivers of a specific brand earphones

Reference to DTEC

By the way..

I cannot find the PDF of WBFK you mention(60025)

I have WBFK 30019

But the question is...to remove the upper plate of BA. I did try once in the past and wrecked my driver..


----------



## et.haan

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Please dont mention the drivers of a specific brand earphones
> 
> Reference to DTEC
> 
> ...


 
Ok, I removed the brand. I ask, why? So the listing wont be removed? What do you mean about DTEC?

For pdf, just search WBFK-30019. There is a PRO/ENGINEER sheet, but no data sheet (the colored one, with impedance graph), like with other drivers. In case you cant, here are some screenshots. 


 


 

Whoever tries first will have to buy it blindly. It is a super tweeter, and the 711 coupler simply cant represent it. If by the time I am done, and nobody has tried, I will try it. I will also post the response with how Knowles says to on their website here https://knowles-cms.ae-admin.com/do...y/wp04_balanced_armature_hdaudio.pdf?sfvrsn=0


----------



## et.haan

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Please dont mention the drivers of a specific brand earphones
> 
> Reference to DTEC
> 
> ...



Sorry, all for double posting a lot. But, to remove the snout, I just gripped the BA and the snout of the BA, and turned. Came right off, totally clean. I am not sure how they are attached. I guess ultrasonic welding, or a little bit of glue.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

et.haan said:


> Sorry, all for double posting a lot. But, to remove the snout, I just gripped the BA and the snout of the BA, and turned. Came right off, totally clean. I am not sure how they are attached. I guess ultrasonic welding, or a little bit of glue.


the removal of name if BA was for security reason. You can mention the BA, never mention the crossover. For safety reason and in good heart, i told you to remove name.. Its better to be more safe

even though this(and other DIY) thread is the most transparent one here.

i was asking about the WBFK60025. i have the 30019 with me

.............................................................................

Bro
You(@et.haan ) and @DannyBouwhuis are crazy(in a good way)

one remove the spout and one add spouts to BA

LOL

nice experiments you guys do

waiting for someone, who can increase the internal volume of CI's Back chamber for fun


----------



## DannyBouwhuis

dhruvmeena96 said:


> the removal of name if BA was for security reason. You can mention the BA, never mention the crossover. For safety reason and in good heart, i told you to remove name.. Its better to be more safe
> 
> even though this(and other DIY) thread is the most transparent one here.
> 
> ...





dhruvmeena96 said:


> the removal of name if BA was for security reason. You can mention the BA, never mention the crossover. For safety reason and in good heart, i told you to remove name.. Its better to be more safe
> 
> even though this(and other DIY) thread is the most transparent one here.
> 
> ...



That sounds intresting, I like things that sound intresting, do you have a spare CI you could open up ? I'd like to see the internals to see if anything like that is even possible.. I'll order a pair soon


----------



## Xymordos

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Please dont mention the drivers of a specific brand earphones
> 
> Reference to DTEC
> 
> ...



I don't think you can remove the top cover completely. Tia is more like a very large laser cut bore on one side of the BA driver.


----------



## et.haan

dhruvmeena96 said:


> the removal of name if BA was for security reason. You can mention the BA, never mention the crossover. For safety reason and in good heart, i told you to remove name.. Its better to be more safe
> 
> even though this(and other DIY) thread is the most transparent one here.
> 
> ...


Thanks, haha. I took apart my first pair of CIEM’s a while ago, in an attempt to salvage drivers. A TWFK went flying somewhere, and is likely dead. If I find it, i’ll make a video of removing the snout. 

Back volume could increase low frequency extension and LF performance due to more air being moved, correct? Like a ported subwoofer?


----------



## et.haan

DannyBouwhuis said:


> That sounds intresting, I like things that sound intresting, do you have a spare CI you could open up ? I'd like to see the internals to see if anything like that is even possible.. I'll order a pair soon


The woofer that “you know who” uses for the woofer on the “four driver tubeless” is likely an ED or CL with the side lasered off. Definitely not a hodvtec, it is a dual. Could be sonion. 

Something else I don’t understand about that IEM is the driver choice. WBFK as tweeter snout, some mid driver farther back in canal, (they call it a high mid driver), and then dynamic attatched to faceplate as woofer. Makes sense. The last driver is in the top, (near the cable) and has an entire side open. This would make the most sense to be a subwoofer, as LF is less directional than HF. But it is used as a mid! Makes no sense, and seems like a flawed design.  Look on the website, it shows an exploded view, so you can see what I mean. 

Sadly, there is no way to get a BA’s side off without destroying it. The snout yes, it is just stamped and welded on. But the side is a crucial part of the IEM.


----------



## et.haan

dhruvmeena96 said:


> the removal of name if BA was for security reason. You can mention the BA, never mention the crossover. For safety reason and in good heart, i told you to remove name.. Its better to be more safe
> 
> even though this(and other DIY) thread is the most transparent one here.
> 
> ...


Could you measure and post the 30019? Preferably using the knowles method for tweeter performance that I linked above. It seems to only work 4khz+, which is optimal for a WBFK. 

I do not even known how I would hook up a tubeless to a 711 coupler.


----------



## et.haan

Also, I was thinking yesterday, TWFK is an awkward driver. It sounds weird, but let me explain. 

TWFK, without a damper, has a wonderful extension and a sparkle. But, from 3-6khz, it is horrible sounding, totally harsh in tone. So, you add a green or brown damper. That fixes the harshness, but all your extension is gone.

Remember that a TWFK is a WBFK and 1/2 of a DWFK. I forgot what individual DWFK is called. WBFK is tweeter, DWFK is dual woofer. 

I like the idea of SWFK + DWFK. SWFK is 2 WBFK. SWFK is highpassed, and plays at 3khz+. No filter. DWFK is a mid driver. Green filter. No harsh sound, still has good extension. 

I know that a great sounding TWFK is possible, but it’s not easy. Campfire did it with andromeda, but they have complicated tuning, with a Horn and resonator. Anybody know of any really easy tuning solutions for the twfk?


----------



## Ivan TT

et.haan said:


> I do not even known how I would hook up a tubeless to a 711 coupler.


I'm doing lots of experimenting with spouts removed on RAB/RAF drivers at a moment.
You can stretch 2-3mm ID tubing over single or dual drivers easily enough, if it's 3mm I glue 2mm ID tube into 3mm ID tube, works like a charm!
PS: seal important for bass, so I insert drivers only halfway through and use B7000 glue to seal.
PPS: if we as @stephensynanta16 really *really* nicely he may design 3D printed adaptors, driver(s) on 1 side, hole for tubing on another. I'm testing his design for x4 RAB/RAF, makes it soooo much easier to hook them up and get a good seal!


----------



## et.haan

Ivan TT said:


> I'm doing lots of experimenting with spouts removed on RAB/RAF drivers at a moment.
> You can stretch 2-3mm ID tubing over single or dual drivers easily enough, if it's 3mm I glue 2mm ID tube into 3mm ID tube, works like a charm!
> PS: seal important for bass, so I insert drivers only halfway through and use B7000 glue to seal.
> PPS: if we as @stephensynanta16 really *really* nicely he may design 3D printed adaptors, driver(s) on 1 side, hole for tubing on another. I'm testing his design for x4 RAB/RAF, makes it soooo much easier to hook them up and get a good seal!



Are you also just twisting them off? Or buying snoutless RAB? Ultimate does this, with 3d printing. They call it phase aligned driver housing or something. However, they still have the snouts on. I am guessing it is for an even soundstage and tuning. I want to try it soon. 

How are your results?


----------



## DannyBouwhuis

et.haan said:


> Sadly, there is no way to get a BA’s side off without destroying it. The snout yes, it is just stamped and welded on. But the side is a crucial part of the IEM.



Removing the side is impossible that's for sure, the top of the driver might be possible I just fired up my soldering iron to see what will happen


----------



## et.haan

DannyBouwhuis said:


> Removing the side is impossible that's for sure, the top of the driver might be possible I just fired up my soldering iron to see what will happen


Also try twisting. I have had success with that.  Maybe both. I think it’s attatched with ultrasonic welding, which heavily I doubt could be removed with an iron.


----------



## DannyBouwhuis

et.haan said:


> Also try twisting. I have had success with that.  Maybe both. I think it’s attatched with ultrasonic welding, which heavily I doubt could be removed with an iron.



The iron was used for soldering, you can pretty easily remove the top of the houding with a sharp precision knife.

Anyway the driver works without a cover, highs sound suprisingly sharp but the mids are pretty distorted (note that I just held the driver close to my ear)
So driver can be opened thus they can also be closed if we're carefull enough..

I like the FED so I'm thinking of adding ferrofluid to other drivers


----------



## Ivan TT

et.haan said:


> Are you also just twisting them off? Or buying snoutless RAB? Ultimate does this, with 3d printing. They call it phase aligned driver housing or something. However, they still have the snouts on. I am guessing it is for an even soundstage and tuning. I want to try it soon.
> 
> How are your results?


Gentle pressure with wire cutters, they come off quite easily.
I like spoutless sound as there’s a bit less upper midrange harshness (so I can go 1 up in dampers resistance, from green to brown) and better slam in lows and mids.
At this stage x4 RAF in series is my best sounding set, although it’s not as V-shaped as GV and does not extend as far in HF, but the slam, quality of mids and coherence of x-over less approach are amasing!


----------



## et.haan

Ivan TT said:


> Gentle pressure with wire cutters, they come off quite easily.
> I like spoutless sound as there’s a bit less upper midrange harshness (so I can go 1 up in dampers resistance, from green to brown) and better slam in lows and mids.
> At this stage x4 RAF in series is my best sounding set, although it’s not as V-shaped as GV and does not extend as far in HF, but the slam, quality of mids and coherence of x-over less approach are amasing!



Interesting. How do you think this would sound with the SWFK?

By x4 RAF do you mean 4 RAF design? or 4th in series of your design?

I dont see any nozzle-less RAF, do you just pull it off, like I did with the TWFK and HODVTEC?

Also, GV does not use HODVTEC-31618, the nozzle is in a different spot, on the bottom, like the CL. Not sure which one. 

Care to shoot a picture of one?


----------



## et.haan

Also, I was looking around at some drivers, anybody ever treid GD? Looks very interesting, like the SWFK. 

RAB-32037 has no snout. 

WBFK-30042 is like WBFK-30019, with no snout. 

Also, FEH looks very good as a mid. Ferrofluid too.


----------



## Ivan TT (Nov 13, 2019)

et.haan said:


> Interesting. How do you think this would sound with the SWFK?


No idea and I don't have SWFK anyway 


et.haan said:


> By x4 RAF do you mean 4 RAF design? or 4th in series of your design?


4 RAF drivers in series, glued together in a brick like formation


et.haan said:


> I dont see any nozzle-less RAF, do you just pull it off, like I did with the TWFK and HODVTEC?


Yes, I posted early experiments few pages back...


et.haan said:


> Care to shoot a picture of one?


A bit later, but here's FR:


----------



## et.haan (Nov 13, 2019)

Ivan TT said:


> No idea and I don't have SWFK anyway
> 
> 4 RAF drivers in series, glued together in a brick like formation
> 
> ...


Wow, what a fantastic looking response! I feel that with playing around with tubing, we could get that LF bump down an octave, and it would be a good sub/woofer and a mid all in one. Great results!

edit: i mean a steeper curve, later on. Like 100hz instead of 250. Maybe it is not possible.


----------



## Xymordos

et.haan said:


> Also, I was looking around at some drivers, anybody ever treid GD? Looks very interesting, like the SWFK.
> 
> RAB-32037 has no snout.
> 
> ...



I've used the GD60599, its a mid-high driver that's really quiet. Super peaky though so not easy to use.


----------



## et.haan

Xymordos said:


> I've used the GD60599, its a mid-high driver that's really quiet. Super peaky though so not easy to use.


Sounds pretty meh... how was tone?


----------



## et.haan

Dhruv,
As you know, I am using 26805 as mid on my EST build. What are your thoughts on dampers for it?? It likely wont play past 6khz. I was thinking green, 1cm from driver. 

Also, I was wondering, as we know that damper position affects sound, is there a known relationship? Like 330ohm @3cm = 680ohm at 1cm, or something like that? 

I would like to think that they dont have a relationship, so that I could slow driver's impulse without affecting response (to get warmth or tone) and vice versa (low pass).


----------



## Xymordos

et.haan said:


> Sounds pretty meh... how was tone?



I used it as treble driver, seemed pretty good to me haha. You'd probably need to stack a few of them together to get enough SPL to use a damper. 4 of these drivers is around the size of a DTEC.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

et.haan said:


> Dhruv,
> As you know, I am using 26805 as mid on my EST build. What are your thoughts on dampers for it?? It likely wont play past 6khz. I was thinking green, 1cm from driver.
> 
> Also, I was wondering, as we know that damper position affects sound, is there a known relationship? Like 330ohm @3cm = 680ohm at 1cm, or something like that?
> ...



The relationship of placing damper near and far is not about strength of damping of peaks...but the amount or angle at which it rolls off.

Near spout, it dampen peaks, less roll off
End of tube, rolls of happens, a specific angle is achieved which can shift peaks

Like ED29689 with green damper 6mm away, shifts its major peaking to 2.5kHz

ED26805 with white or brown, as its not as strong as ED29689


And it doesnt stop air pulse or impulse...it just slows down the air pressure..

Bass are slower than Middle freq and high freq.


----------



## Ivan TT (Nov 14, 2019)

et.haan said:


> Wow, what a fantastic looking response! I feel that with playing around with tubing, we could get that LF bump down an octave, and it would be a good sub/woofer and a mid all in one. Great results!
> 
> edit: i mean a steeper curve, later on. Like 100hz instead of 250. Maybe it is not possible.


Well, the curve only tells half of the story.

What x4 RAF (but not x4 RAB, go figure) excels at is coherency - crossed multi-BA set ups have quite noticeable phase distortion/colouration; punch/slam - HODVTEC is kind of close, but it lacks weight; and with @stephensynanta16 adaptor HF extension is on par with WBFK (I previously used tubing of various diameters, it does reduce "air" a bit).

Very proud of this idea/build (if it was my idea, don't really remember), makes investment of $$ and time in this hobby soooooo totally worthwhile!


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Nov 14, 2019)

Ivan TT said:


> Well, the curve only tells half of the story.
> 
> What x4 RAF (but not x4 RAB, go figure) excels at is coherency - crossed multi-BA set ups have quite noticeable phase distortion/colouration; punch/slam - HODVTEC is kind of close, but it lacks weight; and with @stephensynanta16 adaptor HF extension is on par with WBFK (I previously used tubing of various diameters, it does reduce "air" a bit).
> 
> Very proud of this idea/build (if it was my idea, don't really remember), makes investment of $$ and time in this hobby soooooo totally worthwhile!


That curve is just for comparison sake

Then this FR looks great
(Is it without damper...if it is....nice man)
Dark, coherent and detailed

I tried x4 RAB series with amp...
It does sound large and bass feels brandish(not boosted or bloated)....but it seems its very high impedance...

Audiophile Worthy......


----------



## stephensynanta16

For those who want to try the quad RAF/RAB adapter:

Type-A: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1FoYTHzfbGIvI9sE8iJny4qlmLIfIG1gr
Stack then glue those quad before putting it into the adapter. (FDM printer friendly, adjust the size/scaling a little bit)

Type-B: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1eVE2T0xO4y6JyWVGIqzKDunIYgbK8M0m
Put the BA one by one separately into the adapter. (DLP/SLA Recomended)


----------



## et.haan

Xymordos said:


> I used it as treble driver, seemed pretty good to me haha. You'd probably need to stack a few of them together to get enough SPL to use a damper. 4 of these drivers is around the size of a DTEC.


Ill probably stick with ED, but that is really tiny. I bet they were intended for hearing aids, like the RAB


----------



## dhruvmeena96

et.haan said:


> Ill probably stick with ED, but that is really tiny. I bet they were intended for hearing aids, like the RAB


First of all

No driver is hearing aid or no driver is audio and music purpose

Its all about how you use


GR are good driver for decay less sound. When stacked, can give a tight punch.


----------



## et.haan

dhruvmeena96 said:


> The relationship of placing damper near and far is not about strength of damping of peaks...but the amount or angle at which it rolls off.
> 
> Near spout, it dampen peaks, less roll off
> End of tube, rolls of happens, a specific angle is achieved which can shift peaks
> ...


I know this about the dampers, I wrote about it a couple pages back. 

However, 26805 is just as loud, what makes you say it is not as strong?

I thank you for your thoughts. I’ll try brown.


----------



## et.haan

dhruvmeena96 said:


> First of all
> 
> No driver is hearing aid or no driver is audio and music purpose
> 
> ...


this is true, it is how you use it. 

I need more money to experiment  with weird drivers lol


----------



## dhruvmeena96

et.haan said:


> I know this about the dampers, I wrote about it a couple pages back.
> 
> However, 26805 is just as loud, what makes you say it is not as strong?
> 
> I thank you for your thoughts. I’ll try brown.


Every peak on ED26805 is 5dB less loud than ED29689.

So having a brown damper or a white damper is enough


----------



## et.haan (Nov 14, 2019)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Every peak on ED26805 is 5dB less loud than ED29689.
> 
> So having a brown damper or a white damper is enough


Makes sense. Seems like the 26805 is the better midrange driver, but with zobel and resonator, 29689 could be better for FR

Edit: at second look, with its treble and extension i’m not so sure


----------



## HiFi47 (Nov 15, 2019)

Hi everyone,

I plan to create a smallest possible crossover DIY hybrid version between the Final Audio E5000 and F7200. Two models that I admire because of their minimalistic design and sound quality. I would like to combine the advantages of a dynamic driver and a armature driver in one earphone. I use a small metal shell where the DD sits, and directly in front inside the nozzle I want to place the BA (without tube).

I already ordered the parts, so it's about to make them match and finding the best solution using the given components. Here some informations about the drivers I want to use with specifications:


Dynamic driver of B&O H5 6.5mm


Impedance 1kHz: 16 Ohms
Sensitivity: 90dB SPL +/-3dB
Flat frequency response: 10-20000Hz
Power: 5MW ~ 20MW

Knowles RAB-32257

Impedance 1kHz: 48 Ohms
Sensitivity: 105.5 dB SPL
Flat frequency response: 20-11000Hz


This is my first DIY project and If you have suggestions and tips how to pair the drivers, what to consider or you just could refer me a link of a previous discussion, please let me know. 

My main questions are:

Will I need a frequency divider? What type and where to get it?
Should I use specific dampers attached directly to the BB or any kind of tuning cotton/foam?
Is there a way to set the volume of each driver separately in a very small shell?
Should I better make short tubes from both drivers till the end of nozzle and make a seal for a better impact of the sound?
What kind of mesh should I use?

Thanks for your support!


----------



## dhruvmeena96

HiFi47 said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I plan to create a smallest possible crossover DIY hybrid version between the Final Audio E5000 and F7200. Two models that I admire because of their minimalistic design and sound quality. I would like to combine the advantages of a dynamic driver and a armature driver in one earphone. I use a small metal shell where the DD sits, and directly in front inside the nozzle I want to place the BA (without tube).
> 
> ...


Using cross means you are making a new type of sound .

Paralleling these two driver can get you the sound fusion of those both driver..  But you might need to damped then both.

And Final use Sonion 23xx driver and dynamic driver is unknown.. b&o driver looks pretty much same...but Final and b&o dont sound same at all 
.


----------



## HiFi47

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Using cross means you are making a new type of sound .
> 
> Paralleling these two driver can get you the sound fusion of those both driver..  But you might need to damped then both.
> 
> ...



Yes that's the idea, using the BA for the clarity and the DD for giving more warmth and filling the gap in the upper frequencies that the RAB seems to be lacking. You think that could work? And what would you use for damping each driver?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

HiFi47 said:


> Yes that's the idea, using the BA for the clarity and the DD for giving more warmth and filling the gap in the upper frequencies that the RAB seems to be lacking. You think that could work? And what would you use for damping each driver?


woofer might be red
RAB green

same length tubing


----------



## HiFi47 (Nov 15, 2019)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> woofer might be red
> RAB green
> 
> same length tubing



So you think it's necessary to put tubes in front of each driver? It would be difficult to make the two tubes the same length out of a limitation of the small shell that I use. What if I would use tuning cotton for the DD and placing the BA in front inside of the nozzle without tube but attaching the green damper in front of the BA?


----------



## HiFi47

Here is an inspiration of a hybrid:




 

This is the shell I want to use:



 



 

And a quick and dirty sketch of how I wish to place the drivers:


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Nov 15, 2019)

HiFi47 said:


> Here is an inspiration of a hybrid:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That would be hard to fit inthat shell.
By the way

Use micropore tape to tune dynamic driver

Just get a super small size paper punching machine(stationary)

And tape the center only


----------



## HiFi47

dhruvmeena96 said:


> That would be hard to fit in...
> 
> In that shell.
> 
> Use micropore tape to tune dynamic driver



Yes using tubing would be almost impossible. Ok, so using micropore tape for DD and the green damper for BA. I will try that. 

Thanks for your help! I will post some pictures of the process and let you know if this combination will sound good. 

Cheers!


----------



## dhruvmeena96

HiFi47 said:


> Yes using tubing would be almost impossible. Ok, so using micropore tape for DD and the green damper for BA. I will try that.
> 
> Thanks for your help! I will post some pictures of the process and let you know if this combination will sound good.
> 
> Cheers!


Before that

Do search for micropore mod on iem

You have to just dampen the center of driver... The sides should move air

For RAB...

You will need to do @Slater tube attach damp on the driver..

It is there on this thread...

Need some searching

He used green damper and a tube trick

Ask him about that


----------



## et.haan (Nov 15, 2019)

Had a nightmare last night, I had to tune this:




Probably should have studied for chemistry, but this is more cool.   I got fotoplast in a tube, and nothing would work. Small needles, nothing would work. I got it out. Fotoplast does not taste as bad as I thought it would. Clarity is great, these things are just hard to take pictures of. 3 tubes per iem, yellow filter on HODVTEC.

For everybody, know that Bondic UV has a slight green tint.


----------



## et.haan (Nov 15, 2019)

That has no lacquer on it, so it will look even better once it does. Currently it has 6 wires hanging out of it, all about a meter long, for breadboard tuning.

Also, to mount the 1mm filters, I tried a bunch of stuff, like dental picks and a pencil lead. Dental picks will probably poke a hole in it, and pencil lead dirties the inside of the tube, and could break. The damper puller that soundlink sells won’t fit. I used the back of a sewing needle, if that helps anybody. It worked really well.

I have a yellow on hodvtec for richer sound; i’ll add one to the ED if it needs it.

I don’t like the 2 internal bubbles, but I am very satisfied with my result. There’s one in the canal and one behind the transformer. I tried filling the canal with resin from a needle, but there was too much pressure to do so. The transformer looks fantastic when fully surrounded in resin.

I am kind of nervous for cutting a spot for the connector, as I forgot to do that before I glued in my drivers. Ill cover the whole thing in electrical tape for dust.


----------



## et.haan (Nov 15, 2019)

HiFi47 said:


> Here is an inspiration of a hybrid:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hmmm, look like WBFK-30019 driver in snout (could be 30042). Good driver, but its really only a super tweeter. Its used in a specific brand earphone (that I cannot say) called a TIA driver. It is really only recommended to be used 3-4kkhz+. However, finding good dynamics is hard, due to how much their back volume affects the driver response. I think you should use the WBFK, but I am not a fan of the idea of a dynamic. I think you should use a RAB or RAF driver. Another driver you could use is the SR, I have used it, and its got a great midrange. I would do an electronic crossover.

Something that you need to consider when you build this is how BA's are very leak sensitive. I would put the WBFK in the snout, and then put the SR/RAB/RAF in the tube. Tack weld the WBFK to the side of the nozzle with Bondic. Then run the tube to to terminate at the at the same point as the front of the WBFK. You will have to find some way to seal this. What I think you should do is take Bondic UV glue, stick the needle-like end all the way into the back of the shell, and squeeze untill it is full to the point that the WBFK is half housed in resin. Then cure it with light.

Just know that you couldn't use any vented driver. SR is vented, so you would have to tape off the port.

edit: no, the phase won’t be perfect, but in that shell, it’s as good as it will get. At 3khz  it’s effect will not be audible


----------



## ForceMajeure

et.haan said:


> I found the Tia high driver, WBFK-30019, (sold on mouser). It is also called the WBFK-60025. I dont know why it has 2 names. I am sure that this is the driver we are looking for.
> Tech specs: https://www.knowles.com/docs/default-source/model-downloads/wbfk-30019-000.pdf
> mouser listing, know that the image is wrong: https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Knowles/WBFK-30019-000?qs=3unH/Dqlvl9zo75uZO9NyA==
> Taobao: https://world.taobao.com/item/575428230148.htm?spm=a21wu.11804641-tw.0.0.78e91a4cZWgikX
> another taobao: https://world.taobao.com/item/584263834727.htm?spm=a21wu.12321156-tw.0.0.72b9677fNq41HW



Hi, just so folks are aware you are spreading misinformation. You are jumping to conclusions before checking thoroughly on stuff. (This post is not an attack in any way though just so we make things clear and welcome to the community btw.) 

These are not the TIA series of drivers
TIA drivers are different. they don't have a "roof", not spout but roof. Although they are tweeters based on known Knowles driver series they still aren't the same as spoutless drivers.
 Here you can see how they look 



Regarding the A12, they don't use DTEC as woofers but Sonion's based drivers.


----------



## et.haan (Nov 15, 2019)

ForceMajeure said:


> Hi, just so folks are aware you are spreading misinformation. You are jumping to conclusions before checking thoroughly on stuff. (This post is not an attack in any way though just so we make things clear and welcome to the community btw.)
> 
> These are not the TIA series of drivers
> TIA drivers are different. they don't have a "roof", not spout but roof. Although they are tweeters based on known Knowles driver series they still aren't the same as spoutless drivers.
> ...


I mean the TIA high. I have no clue about the other drivers, but the TIA high is a wbfk. I’m not sure where you got that picture.
 There’s another photo of them making one, and the tia high looks like the 30019.

edit: sorry for double post, poor service


----------



## et.haan

ForceMajeure said:


> Hi, just so folks are aware you are spreading misinformation. You are jumping to conclusions before checking thoroughly on stuff. (This post is not an attack in any way though just so we make things clear and welcome to the community btw.)
> 
> These are not the TIA series of drivers
> TIA drivers are different. they don't have a "roof", not spout but roof. Although they are tweeters based on known Knowles driver series they still aren't the same as spoutless drivers.
> ...


I really only mean TIA high, we decided that the other drivers are actually proprietary. I am not really sure about where you got that photo, I have a few that show it as something else, this is the the n8, and it’s definitely not that. I am sorry for saying a12 uses dtec, I didn’t know  

 There’s a video somewhere on their youtube where you can see them inserting the tia driver, and it looks nothing like that.


----------



## et.haan

ForceMajeure said:


> Hi, just so folks are aware you are spreading misinformation. You are jumping to conclusions before checking thoroughly on stuff. (This post is not an attack in any way though just so we make things clear and welcome to the community btw.)
> 
> These are not the TIA series of drivers
> TIA drivers are different. they don't have a "roof", not spout but roof. Although they are tweeters based on known Knowles driver series they still aren't the same as spoutless drivers.
> ...


Heres the video I was talking about.  (0:55)

 

This driver that is inside the canal has to have a front exit. It would make no sense not to. I think the photos you have are of the low mid (large one), and I am not sure about the small one. They show the mid as having a nozzle.


----------



## ForceMajeure (Nov 15, 2019)

That photo only shows you its back. From the other side you would see the no roof.

Here you can see an A18. look carefully


----------



## ForceMajeure

Btw yeah I know. no one is addressing the elephant in the room but all TIA tweeter are firing sideways against the nozzle


----------



## et.haan (Nov 15, 2019)

ForceMajeure said:


> That photo only shows you its back. From the other side you would see the no roof.
> 
> Here you can see an A18. look carefully


look carefully where? and where did you get that picture, if I may ask?

edith boy, service again. sorry

That is so odd, and you are right. They are definitely sideways firing. Have a photo of the other side, with the ridges? Maybe they have 2. I feel like there could be 2 or more types, as in the video, it looked like there were no ridges, while n8 had them.


----------



## ForceMajeure

Zoom that image. the side you are seeing is the side with no roof. you can see the red glue holding the diaphragm in place there


----------



## ForceMajeure

^


----------



## et.haan

et.haan said:


> look carefully where? and where did you get that picture, if I may ask?





ForceMajeure said:


> ^


Check my edit, my posts are taking a while to send, and at first I couldn’t see your image.


----------



## ForceMajeure

In the video you don't get to see the other side of the driver beside the renders. There is an image showing you at a very steep angle the drive. you can kinda see it has no roof there as well 



Anyway, don't stress about the editing. everything is cool everything is shmooth haha


----------



## et.haan (Nov 15, 2019)

ForceMajeure said:


> In the video you don't get to see the other side of the driver beside the renders. There is an image showing you at a very steep angle the drive. you can kinda see it has no roof there as well
> 
> Anyway, don't stress about the editing. everything is cool everything is shmooth haha


Well... I think we are... both correct? Maybe. I cant find any good pictures of the n8. However, I found this of the a18, no ridges.


This doesn’t mean that the n8 definitely uses the 30019, it’s just a different driver. Maybe it only has ridges, and everything else is the same. I don’t know.


----------



## HiFi47

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Before that
> 
> Do search for micropore mod on iem
> 
> ...




Alright this makes sense. I'll do my homework, research and checking out Slaters solution.

Thanks again!


----------



## HiFi47

et.haan said:


> "I would do an electronic crossover"



Thank you so much for your thoughts and know how. First I'll have to stick to the drivers that I ordered and see how the result will be. And if it's not satisfying I'll probably exchange the dynamic driver to a BA and consider the models you mentioned. 

How could an electric crossover look like between these two drivers?:


Dynamic driver B&O H5 6.5mm

Impedance 1kHz: 16 Ohms
Sensitivity: 90dB SPL +/-3dB
Flat frequency response: 10-20000Hz
Power: 5MW ~ 20MW

Knowles RAB-32257

Impedance 1kHz: 48 Ohms
Sensitivity: 105.5 dB SPL
 Flat frequency response: 20-11000Hz


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Nov 15, 2019)

@et.haan

first

I told you earlier that you need a laser CNC to remove the top part of the driver to make it tia like


Second

64audio uses sonion woofer

Third

What kind of sound you want to make
(I only understood that you are using ED26805)


@HiFi47

Using electronic crossover will cause you the issue of maintaining phase alignment..

So,in this setup, it would be hard to tune

If you had a WBFK, then it was possible due to its small size.

RAB are bigger than TWFK...so

It would be hard to move the driver.

By the way, try finding original Sony MH755
Salvage its driver, see its shell working(how big the vent in front to leak bass is).

Use a RAB32063 with green damper(@Slater method)

Both fullrange

RAB on zobel


----------



## HiFi47

dhruvmeena96 said:


> @et.haan
> 
> By the way, try finding original Sony MH755
> Salvage its driver, see its shell working(how big the vent in front to leak bass is).



Good advice, learning/coping from a good working example. And yes, the point of the vent holes, I thought about that. I have a pair of Moondrop Crescent and they even have a microscopic hole in the front part where the nozzle is. They claimed it as an "expensive and important hole". What is your opinion about that?

I found the famous @Slater dumper, I will try that. And in this search, I found that he's mentioning the interference of the magnetic fields of the driver units. Very interesting..


----------



## dhruvmeena96

HiFi47 said:


> Good advice, learning/coping from a good working example. And yes, the point of the vent holes, I thought about that. I have a pair of Moondrop Crescent and they even have a microscopic hole in the front part where the nozzle is. They claimed it as an "expensive and important hole". What is your opinion about that?
> 
> I found the famous @Slater dumper, I will try that. And in this search, I found that he's mentioning the interference of the magnetic fields of the driver units. Very interesting..


OK...

That vent is to release air pressure buildup inside earcanal

The size of it decides the amount of bass you will loose as you decouple the pressure from your ear canal.

Moondrop small driver already produce good bass per tuning, so they made a very small hole to just let the eardrum breathe and avoid over pressure. It sometimes open up the stage too(critical sized hole according to driver)

Slater used a small cut of a tube and placed over the spout to make a damper adapter.

Why did I say to use MH755 driver is the tuning

But since you have small shell... I think you cannot..

And...now, something important.

I found the B&O H5 driver is less sensitive than RAB it self.

Not an ideal driver

So, I thought

Why not you make an IEM with a Moving Armature and a BalancedFullrange

Knowles SR32453 + RAB32063
Fullrange
Heavy damped on end


----------



## et.haan

dhruvmeena96 said:


> @et.haan
> 
> first
> 
> ...


Yeah lol, I thought u meant top not side

I was just speculating on the Fourte drivers, pre lasering


----------



## et.haan

Frustrating day today. Rest in peace, another HODVTEC to the collection. I think. I see a tiny dent, and I am pretty sure it’s going to rattle now. 



Its the one with the wires still soldered on. Ill have to test it. 
And my network switch broke. Awesome. 
I am too far into this project at this point lol. I need to sell more stock monday to finance it.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Nov 16, 2019)

et.haan said:


> Yeah lol, I thought u meant top not side
> 
> I was just speculating on the Fourte drivers, pre lasering


By the way

Why are you interested in Tia, when electrostats can do that range better.

Even a zobel also deload the driver from air resistance(electrically)

And topless BA are hard to tune as now they cannot pressurize enough




et.haan said:


> Frustrating day today. Rest in peace, another HODVTEC to the collection. I think. I see a tiny dent, and I am pretty sure it’s going to rattle now.
> Its the one with the wires still soldered on. Ill have to test it.
> And my network switch broke. Awesome.
> I am too far into this project at this point lol. I need to sell more stock monday to finance it.



Update

Damm
You are serious


----------



## et.haan

dhruvmeena96 said:


> By the way
> 
> Why are you interested in Tia, when electrostats can do that range better.
> 
> ...


I am working on EST now. I know it is better, but I just want to try and experiment. With my current interests, I plan on majoring in acoustic engineering. Might as well. 

I am speaking to soon, but EST seems too easy.... short horn, less than 3mm long and your done...


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Nov 16, 2019)

et.haan said:


> I am working on EST now. I know it is better, but I just want to try and experiment. With my current interests, I plan on majoring in acoustic engineering. Might as well.
> 
> I am speaking to soon, but EST seems too easy.... short horn, less than 3mm long and your done...


Try experimenting with CI-30120

That would be worthwhile as its cheap, big ,very high dB and also too much bassy

I think, it will turn flatter in sound..

Then you can zobel etc to make it perfect midcentric full range driver


----------



## et.haan

dhruvmeena96 said:


> By the way
> 
> Why are you interested in Tia, when electrostats can do that range better.
> 
> ...


Maybe... I want to try building speakers too, but parents won’t allow 15 inch woofers in the living room haha. I’m not sure why I am so fascinated in acoustics at my age, but there seems to be so much to learn. I feel it’s  like analog programming... you can learn everything, but there are still better ways to do everything 

And I think there are so many jobs where sound isn’t considered where it could be... Military has a million uses (even some with IEM, the flight deck of an aircraft carrier is 140db peak), luxury cars, and of course speakers and earphones. So many possible careers


----------



## et.haan

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Try experimenting with CI-30120
> 
> That would be worthwhile as its cheap, big ,very high dB and also too much bassy
> 
> ...


wow, loud and surprising treble, looks very intersting

Sadly no center pass, but zobel and resonator exist... 

Onto the list of drivers I want to expirement with


----------



## HiFi47 (Nov 16, 2019)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> OK...
> 
> That vent is to release air pressure buildup inside earcanal
> 
> ...



It's probably not that easy to make such a precise small hole in to the metal shell.. But I will figure it out.

I know about sensitivity difference. What I was searching for, is a micro potentiometer where I could change the power each driver will get. This would be the ideal solution, so depending the music I could change the intensity between the two drivers and changing the sound character. And it would be cool and geeky that It could be easily regulated from outside the shell : )
Maybe you or someone else know such a small pot or something else that I could use to regulate the input power. 

I'm agree a combination between the SR-32453 and RAB-32063 would be interesting. But I really don't want to give up so easily on my plan... Especially because I already ordered the drivers. The last solution would be to make two earphones using each driver type separately.


----------



## ForceMajeure (Nov 16, 2019)

et.haan said:


> Frustrating day today. Rest in peace, another HODVTEC to the collection. I think. I see a tiny dent, and I am pretty sure it’s going to rattle now.
> Its the one with the wires still soldered on. Ill have to test it.
> And my network switch broke. Awesome.
> I am too far into this project at this point lol. I need to sell more stock monday to finance it.



unfortunately the HODVTEC seem like one of the most delicate drivers regarding breaking and distortions. I had may that just failed or started acting weirdly even with a simple drop or dent.

Regarding the ridges you are talking about. it might be one of the sides of the driver in that picture and it also can be the new Knowles drivers. They are introducing a change to the design for all FK drivers. Now, there is a Stamped folded yoke instead of the regular stack one (that has the ridges). they also are doing a thermo bond coil instead of the wet wound.

meaning all drivers that have an fk component or are fk based will look different and won't have the "ridges"...they also measure slightly different now on.


----------



## HiFi47 (Nov 17, 2019)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> "And...now, something important.
> 
> I found the B&O H5 driver is less sensitive than RAB it self.
> 
> Not an ideal driver"



Could I use resistors to use them together? What type of resistor would I have to use? (Smd?) 
Are there small adjustable models? and where to place them?

I try to do my homework, but really don't know enough about electronic parts.. 
I hope someone can help me. Thanks!


Dynamic driver of B&O H5 6.5mm

Impedance 1kHz: 16 Ohms
Sensitivity: 90dB SPL +/-3dB
Flat frequency response: 10-20000Hz
Power: 5MW ~ 20MW

Knowles RAB-32257

Impedance 1kHz: 48 Ohms
Sensitivity: 105.5 dB SPL
Flat frequency response: 20-11000Hz


----------



## Schlaugummi46

Hey guys, I'm a bloody beginner and have a few questions before I start my first DIEM project. Originally I had planned a 2-way system with the GQ-30783, but then I came across Furco's build combining the GQ-30783 with a RAB-32257. I'm hoping for a better bass response from this combination. 



Furco said:


> I've now listened to the GQ-30783 + RAB-32257 for about a week and have to say, it sounds really REALLY nice.
> 
> I had initially convinced myself that a DIY 3-driver IEM would probably have the sound quality of a pair of $20 - $30 ear buds but without the bass filling out the sound.  After experimenting with a 6-driver config for the better part of 2 months, my pride/ego convinced me that a DIY 3-driver would be good enough for my teenagers, but not for me.
> 
> ...



My questions are: 
Apparently both drivers can be used together without a crossover (apart from the one already built into the GQ), I suppose that means I don't have to install any capacitors or resistors on either driver? 
Will both drivers be routed to the output with separate sound tubes?
Is the brown damper from Knowles sufficient for the GQ, or does it make sense to use a stronger damper?
What makes more sense: Wiring the drivers in series or parallel?

Thank you for your help!


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Nov 17, 2019)

HiFi47 said:


> Could I use resistors to use them together? What type of resistor would I have to use? (Smd?)
> Are there small adjustable models? and where to place them?
> 
> I try to do my homework, but really don't know enough about electronic parts..
> ...


Add a zobel(DCR) and L-pad

Value of L-pad

15ohm series
10ohm parallel

The L-pad will dampen the RAB by 10dB overall. Zobel will make sure that damping doesnt skew off the response of driver(FR)

Now paralleling them would give you

9.26ohm impedance and 99dB @1kHz.



Schlaugummi46 said:


> Hey guys, I'm a bloody beginner and have a few questions before I start my first DIEM project. Originally I had planned a 2-way system with the GQ-30783, but then I came across Furco's build combining the GQ-30783 with a RAB-32257. I'm hoping for a better bass response from this combination.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



@Furco sensei build was updated to MASM3 pro

Both driver having zobel

RAB tubing extended to 30mm

GQ(green near spout and grey in center of tube- dampers)
RAB(no damper)


Dampers can be adjusted as per taste... Avoid damping RAB


----------



## HiFi47

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Add a zobel(DCR) and L-pad
> 
> Value of L-pad
> 
> ...



Thank you!


----------



## dhruvmeena96

HiFi47 said:


> Thank you!


There is no need to thank... We are here to help


----------



## HiFi47 (Nov 17, 2019)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Add a zobel(DCR) and L-pad
> 
> Value of L-pad
> 
> ...



I just looked up for your recommendations.

About the Zobel I can't find much informations or where to buy them. And the same about L-pads, they seem to be much to big for my very space limited project.

Is there not a simpler solution just using resistors that are small and easy to find in the international market?


----------



## eunice

Zobel is one resistor and one capacitor, you can use smd (0805 or 1206 is still easy to solder by hand). The lpad is also only resistors and capacitor.
Both can be soldered without a pcb.


----------



## stephensynanta16

New Universal Shell Update:

3d Printed universal shell V.5, 3mm bore: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1aS736hQoPso6vhQx84JdxK9Fi5gjjPRN

Fits better on the ears, quite smaller than last version


----------



## stephensynanta16

MASM 3 PRO "Easier than Ever (E-E)", made possible by @dhruvmeena96

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1-RNJgb0x5o5rmQlrvQLAkoqefk0rqLr8

Assembling notes:
The process was almost the same ase MASM7 "E-E". cut a small piece of 1mm ID 2mm OD tube as a seal on the BA's nozzle.
RAB run damperless as per the original recipe, and no need to do the resonator, it's integrated already, built directly into the shell's tube.
on the GQ, the seal tube was a bit different to accomodate damper:




yes the damper position is reversed, i cant find any other way which allow the tube to be integrated into the shell.  The middle damper (Grey @10mm) is put in the same fashion as MASM7 "E-E", jam it in from the nozzle and it'll stop at 10mm.
for ideal result, Zobel follows the original recipe. or if you have some leftover resistor & cap from BZ6, you can also reuse those, add 10 Ohm on before everything else: MMCX-10Ohm-Zobel-Driver

Changelog:
-Green damper now is at 2,4mm from the spout instead of 2mm on the original recipe
-RAB tube is stretched to 30mm (phase correction by @dhruvmeena96)

The stage was crazy wide, its like watching a live concert


----------



## et.haan (Nov 18, 2019)

ForceMajeure said:


> unfortunately the HODVTEC seem like one of the most delicate drivers regarding breaking and distortions. I had may that just failed or started acting weirdly even with a simple drop or dent.
> 
> Regarding the ridges you are talking about. it might be one of the sides of the driver in that picture and it also can be the new Knowles drivers. They are introducing a change to the design for all FK drivers. Now, there is a Stamped folded yoke instead of the regular stack one (that has the ridges). they also are doing a thermo bond coil instead of the wet wound.
> 
> meaning all drivers that have an fk component or are fk based will look different and won't have the "ridges"...they also measure slightly different now on.


I agree with this, HODVTEC seems very fragile, especially to dents. I am guessing this is because of high diaphragm displacement?

I stuck it in my ear and turned up the volume. I could hear any knocking sound, is is likely dead? I mean, does the amount of distortion/knock depend on the dent? Could one dented driver take more volume to distort than another?

I saw that one PDF of how they changed the grill (or whatever they call it), and realized how many FK’s there are.


----------



## et.haan

Also, is there any reason why I don’t see any IEM’s using electrolytic capacitors? Is it something other than size?

Do most companies use MLCC caps?


----------



## HiFi47

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Add a zobel(DCR) and L-pad
> 
> Value of L-pad
> 
> ...





eunice said:


> Zobel is one resistor and one capacitor, you can use smd (0805 or 1206 is still easy to solder by hand). The lpad is also only resistors and capacitor.
> Both can be soldered without a pcb.



Ok, so the SMD's I coud find. Better 0895 or 1206?

 

The L-pad (15ohm series/10ohm parallel) is still a mystery.. Please show me a explicit product with link (preferably on Aliexpress) that could fit a small earphone shell. I just get results of big industrial switches..

And about the circuit, would it look like this? 

 

Would R1 be the L-Pad and R2 the SMD?


----------



## alanwcruz

HiFi47 said:


> Ok, so the SMD's I coud find. Better 0895 or 1206?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That circuit is the L-Pad, R1and R2 are resistor components, these components can be SMD for an easy fit inside your shells. 

The value for the resistors would be R1 15 ohms, R2 10 ohms.


----------



## wardy

Having a bit of difficulty curing the inside of my shells I'm using fotoplast clear process:

Cure to desired thickness 
Tip out 10min cure 
Glycerine Bath 10mins 
Wash 

The outside is perfect, inside whilst not really sticky it scratches REALLY easily it's a little bit soft 

Use some PRO3DURE resin with the exact same process with 0 issues

And ideas?


----------



## et.haan

wardy said:


> Having a bit of difficulty curing the inside of my shells I'm using fotoplast clear process:
> 
> Cure to desired thickness
> Tip out 10min cure
> ...


I had this issue forever. Some people say not to do it, but putting glycerin inside the shell (while still in agar/krystalloid negative) helps so much. What you are getting is called an inhibition layer, its from the fotoplast curing in exposure to light. 

Also, don't clean the inside of the shell with a q-tip until you are sure the resin is dry. q-tips have a chemical of some sort inside the tip that is white. This will rub off inside your shell, and then when it hardens some more it will be trapped inside the casting.


----------



## tomekk

wardy said:


> Cure to desired thickness
> Tip out 10min cure
> Glycerine Bath 10mins
> Wash



1. Cure to desired thickness, or two shorter exposures at 180° rotation.
2. 30-60 sec postcuring.
3. Glycerine bath 7-10 min.
4. Wash.

It's a recipe for Dreve clear S/IO and Hart . Too long post-curing.


----------



## et.haan

Hey guys, I had an idea for a shell finishing process. Its kind of out there, but I am sure the results would be fantastic

Here it is: Magnetic Sputtering. I really dont want to explain it due to length (google, and i dont want do describe it wrong), but you can use it to coat glass lab slides in from what i have heard, "immeasurable thin" coats of a magnetic alloy/metal.

Super mirror finish, super smooth and will likely help with comfort.  totally medical grade. Not sure if anybody has tried.


----------



## et.haan (Nov 21, 2019)

lol this is a dumb question, but for calculating crossover points, do you guys use the total DC resistance, or (eyeballed) impedance in whatever territory you guys are using? I did my calculations for total DC resistance, but havent yet ordered any parts.

Also, for an L-pad, (on a HODVTEC) I should wire the pad before the lowpass, correct?

If I am not mistaken, if you had a low pass for say, a woofer at 500hz, and a high pass for a midrange at 500hz, (presume 3db slope/octave), the output at 500hz would be 3db louder, right? If so, how far apart do you guys place your crossovers? 1 octave, I guess?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

et.haan said:


> lol this is a dumb question, but for calculating crossover points, do you guys use the total DC resistance, or (eyeballed) impedance in whatever territory you guys are using? I did my calculations for total DC resistance, but havent yet ordered any parts.
> 
> Also, for an L-pad, (on a HODVTEC) I should wire the pad before the lowpass, correct?
> 
> If I am not mistaken, if you had a low pass for say, a woofer at 500hz, and a high pass for a midrange at 500hz, (presume 3db/octave), the output at 500hz would be 3db louder, right? If so, how far apart do you guys place your crossovers? 1 octave, I guess?


Use a zobel

Everything is DCR after that. No impedance shifts

Crossing is love after that

Extremely accurate and precise


----------



## et.haan

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Use a zobel
> 
> Everything is DCR after that. No impedance shifts
> 
> ...


interesting..... would I zobel each driver, or zobel right after the 2 pin connector? 

Also, with all due respect, could you answer my other questions? Not totally sure what to google for


----------



## dhruvmeena96

et.haan said:


> interesting..... would I zobel each driver, or zobel right after the 2 pin connector?
> 
> Also, with all due respect, could you answer my other questions? Not totally sure what to google for


Zobel every driver makes crossing easier

And if already have good iem, then you can add a zobel to 2pin to make it flat


----------



## et.haan

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Zobel every driver makes crossing easier
> 
> And if already have good iem, then you can add a zobel to 2pin to make it flat


hmm.... is this what Customart uses on all their iems?


----------



## et.haan

I got access to a cnc mill and a lathe, and i’ll be designing a metal IEM shell over my thanksgiving break. Ill likely base the shell design on an andromeda. Any ideas you guys would like baked into it? I could sell a few (like 10, probably $30 + shipping) 

Cad files will be free of course


----------



## dhruvmeena96

et.haan said:


> hmm.... is this what Customart uses on all their iems?


Nope


----------



## wardy (Nov 22, 2019)

Thanks for everyone's help, starting to make solid progress now, below is a pair I finished today Single driver (RAB-32257) clear shells and purple sparkle faceplates, decided I'm never using mmcx again, such a pain to secure it into the shells, moving on to 2 pin next. Logo made using waterslide decal still trying to find an affordable l way to get white logos so if anyone can help with that would be much appreciated.


----------



## piotrus-g

et.haan said:


> hmm.... is this what Customart uses on all their iems?


No


----------



## dhruvmeena96

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Nope





piotrus-g said:


> No


LOL
same reply
single word

Custom Art doesnt use circuit to flatten impedance
its the proprietary BA and the sound it produce is very magical


----------



## et.haan

Anybody know why IEM manufacturers trim here? I have been doing it as well, and it seems to improve insertion comfort, but I would like a confirmation

heres a terrible drawing from paint. look at the red lines.


----------



## et.haan

also @dhruvmeena96 I see that you are frustrated with the shells you see online, and I found a fourte shell I think you would be interested in. https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=2013.1.w4004-13001467174.5.1cd8686etTF2MC&id=588786589304

Also, if you have a caliper (and the recessed socket on your 64's, would you mind measuring and sharing the dimensions of the connectors? I am trying to see if their cable would fit my socket


----------



## dhruvmeena96

et.haan said:


> also @dhruvmeena96 I see that you are frustrated with the shells you see online, and I found a fourte shell I think you would be interested in. https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=2013.1.w4004-13001467174.5.1cd8686etTF2MC&id=588786589304
> 
> Also, if you have a caliper (and the recessed socket on your 64's, would you mind measuring and sharing the dimensions of the connectors? I am trying to see if their cable would fit my socket


That fake shell with dynamic insert
Already have those

Hahaa


----------



## wardy

et.haan said:


> Anybody know why IEM manufacturers trim here? I have been doing it as well, and it seems to improve insertion comfort, but I would like a confirmation
> 
> heres a terrible drawing from paint. look at the red lines.



Not everyone does this, different companies do it different amounts, 64 audio seems to do it the most that I have seen seen, I have also thought about this, I assume it is mostly for aesthetic as it looks slick and clean, and the fact that not everyone does it makes me think that it makes little difference otherwise.


----------



## et.haan

dhruvmeena96 said:


> That fake shell with dynamic insert
> Already have those
> 
> Hahaa


hows the quality? does it make sense to try as a universal shell?


----------



## et.haan

wardy said:


> Not everyone does this, different companies do it different amounts, 64 audio seems to do it the most that I have seen seen, I have also thought about this, I assume it is mostly for aesthetic as it looks slick and clean, and the fact that not everyone does it makes me think that it makes little difference otherwise.


Yeah, I agree. It seems that with a big shell, covered in lacquer, it can help with insertion. UE tends to do it a lot on the other side. (opposite the connector, to the bottom)


----------



## wardy

Does anyone have any experience spraying Dreve or an equivalent lacquer in a spray gun? I know several companies do this but wondered if you guys have given it a go?


----------



## stephensynanta16

et.haan said:


> Anybody know why IEM manufacturers trim here? I have been doing it as well, and it seems to improve insertion comfort, but I would like a confirmation
> 
> heres a terrible drawing from paint. look at the red lines.


It depends on how the shell should fit on the ear, Yes, it's trimmed to make it more comfortable on the tragus. Shell which has those, usually is thicker, the faceplate extend outward beyond the tragus. And also due to the shape of the ear canal itself, its pointing forward and a little bit upward. The nozzle has to point forward, but the shell has to sit behind the tragus, thats where the trims come. 
That's also why those huge universal shell found on thingiverse, which has straight nozzle doesn't sit very comfortably on the ear.





small/thin shell such as shure doesn't have those because their faceplate doesn't extend outward beyond the tragus.


----------



## MamatYoSekmat (Nov 29, 2019)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1oX7fBF-enCyL1vnP_3-iEyvkSzdqJeiH/view?usp=drivesdk
How do I deal with yellowing UV resin, I often use it outdoors


----------



## et.haan

stephensynanta16 said:


> It depends on how the shell should fit on the ear, Yes, it's trimmed to make it more comfortable on the tragus. Shell which has those, usually is thicker, the faceplate extend outward beyond the tragus. And also due to the shape of the ear canal itself, its pointing forward and a little bit upward. The nozzle has to point forward, but the shell has to sit behind the tragus, thats where the trims come.
> That's also why those huge universal shell found on thingiverse, which has straight nozzle doesn't sit very comfortably on the ear.
> 
> 
> ...


this makes sense. I am glad I did this now. 

You seem like the guy to ask this - thoughts on past-second-bend impressions? I got mine to work, but it took a ton of dips and redips (into wax) to get them to fit correct. I am guessing this will make 16khz (maybe) 1-2db louder?


----------



## et.haan

MamatYoSekmat said:


> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1oX7fBF-enCyL1vnP_3-iEyvkSzdqJeiH/view?usp=drivesdk
> How do I deal with yellowing UV resin, I often use it outdoors


when lacquering, (with lack3, cant speak for other dreve lacquers) cure the lacquer for a minute or so. Any more will yellow them. 

I have heard that over a week or two they will slowly fade back to being a little more clear, due to the exposure to a broader wavelength, though I cannot personally attest to this.


----------



## et.haan

Happy 700th page everybody! I am working on my universal fit’s in cad now, anybody have any say for tip size? I was thinking t-400 (because I have one I can measure lol)

Anybody have a t-500 or t-600 they can measure? I figure we can fit more sound bores this way, although t-400 already seems kinda big.


----------



## et.haan (Nov 29, 2019)

Here is a _very rough _draft of a IEM shell, based on some pictures of the 64 audio universal demo shells.



I screen recorded my making them so Ill upload those to utube now. Its like 2 hours, and I made 2 of them. The first half I made at like 2 in the morning, so my cad was super sloppy and horrible. But, it will help you learn from my mistakes, i guess.


64... pls no sue...they barely look like yours lol

click for full size images 


edit - after a later look, either 64’s iem’s are much, much larger. They use a larger stem/ear tip than mine do, so they have got to be massive. Anybody want to give me some measurements?


----------



## et.haan

working on a mk3 now.... anyways, here is an STL for that one. Let me know how it fits. I dont have a 3d printer. I am guessing it that where the ear has a "fin", seperating the main part of the ear from the concha, it will not rub. I dont know for sure. Who knows.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1YEFtAz7H4XcgAGw-2GzgkFA68jSSQx0n

edit - this is the right ear only. If it fits okay, let me know, and ill mirror it and publish the other one.


----------



## wolkegeist

et.haan said:


> working on a mk3 now.... anyways, here is an STL for that one. Let me know how it fits. I dont have a 3d printer. I am guessing it that where the ear has a "fin", seperating the main part of the ear from the concha, it will not rub. I dont know for sure. Who knows.
> 
> https://drive.google.com/open?id=1YEFtAz7H4XcgAGw-2GzgkFA68jSSQx0n
> 
> edit - this is the right ear only. If it fits okay, let me know, and ill mirror it and publish the other one.


Which drivers are you going to use, because to my eye the shell cavity is quite small for multi drivers uses. Maybe make the body thicker and the tube shorter somehow.


----------



## et.haan

wolkegeist said:


> Which drivers are you going to use, because to my eye the shell cavity is quite small for multi drivers uses. Maybe make the body thicker and the tube shorter somehow.


yeah, I think you are right. The tube is the right size, but if you look at the 2pin socket, you can see how big it is. Ill overlay it on some impressions once I am done with mk3. 

I am doing mk3 design inside a scan of my ear. This scan has no wax on it, so if it fits this, it should fit most medium size ears. I am adding a tiny bit of concha support too. The stem of mk2 has a second axis of bend as well. You’ll see when I upload it. 

Mk2 (and 1) were both completely blind, with the measurements done roughly. I literally held a caliper up to a shell and thought “yeah, that’s good enough”


----------



## wolkegeist

et.haan said:


> yeah, I think you are right. The tube is the right size, but if you look at the 2pin socket, you can see how big it is. Ill overlay it on some impressions once I am done with mk3.
> 
> I am doing mk3 design inside a scan of my ear. This scan has no wax on it, so if it fits this, it should fit most medium size ears. I am adding a tiny bit of concha support too. The stem of mk2 has a second axis of bend as well. You’ll see when I upload it.
> 
> Mk2 (and 1) were both completely blind, with the measurements done roughly. I literally held a caliper up to a shell and thought “yeah, that’s good enough”


I don’t think the nozzle should be long, like maximum 3-4mm or something. If it’s too long you could accidentally jam it to your ears to hard that may leads to injury.


----------



## et.haan

wolkegeist said:


> I don’t think the nozzle should be long, like maximum 3-4mm or something. If it’s too long you could accidentally jam it to your ears to hard that may leads to injury.


I am doing what 64 is doing, which looks like 6-7, and including that little ramp-base 9-10mm. 

You need like 5 to get an eartip on well. 

I would call it audiophile depth, and not $20 amazon earbud depth, if you know what I mean.


----------



## et.haan (Nov 29, 2019)

yeah, lots of wasted space. Red is mk2, inside of an ear, again, no wax. . I could put it much deeper, but the connector would be inside your ear, which wouldn’t work. 

 
and here is the new one, with the extra axis of twist on the stem.
  edit: concha support is proving to be a biatch.... it can wait. Besides, most universals don’t have it.


----------



## et.haan

yeah, lots of wasted space. Red is mk2, inside of an ear, again, no wax. . I could put it much deeper, but the connector would be inside your ear, which wouldn’t work.  
and here is the new one, with the extra axis of twist on the stem.

my bad double post, safari on iphone doing its magic...


----------



## dhruvmeena96

The shell is good

Make the body protrude a little bit outside...to have slightly more shape

And once the shell is made

Try changing its design for more originality and convenience.

By the way

Did you complete the diy Tia driver?


----------



## et.haan

dhruvmeena96 said:


> The shell is good
> 
> Make the body protrude a little bit outside...to have slightly more shape
> 
> ...


thanks! I am working on another reiteration. I think it will be a little better then. 

No, not yet, if you mean the snoutless one. That will come after this build. Currently I have too many projects lol. Selling shifter kart too. (anybody want a 4 speed go kart?)

I accidentally plugged the tube for my HODVTEC, and as I cannot pull the tube, I will have to crack the shell and try to salvage the drivers. I got the HODVTEC out, and it is working fine. 

Also ED is an amazing driver. I have no clue how I havent broken it. The wire I have on it keeps breaking, and I keep resoldering. This is like my 8th time resoldering it, and it is INSIDE the shell! This means it takes me a ton of time, touching it to my iron. Amazing! I am not a _bad _solderer, but lets just say, the SR build was my 2nd time ever soldering.


----------



## et.haan

AAAAUAUGJH! The abortion lives!
Its a little rough around the edges, which is to be expected from it being 3am. Ill clean it up tomorrow. Eventually. Ill post the video by 2030.
I am suprised this took this few reiterations, but viola.
       
Oh yeah. The faceplate. Whatever. Later. Sleep.


----------



## stephensynanta16

et.haan said:


> this makes sense. I am glad I did this now.
> 
> You seem like the guy to ask this - thoughts on past-second-bend impressions? I got mine to work, but it took a ton of dips and redips (into wax) to get them to fit correct. I am guessing this will make 16khz (maybe) 1-2db louder?


Sadly, im a noob on accoustic matter, i dont know what exactly will happen if we put it beyond the second bend. I've never get past the 2nd bend.


----------



## stephensynanta16

et.haan said:


> AAAAUAUGJH! The abortion lives!
> Its a little rough around the edges, which is to be expected from it being 3am. Ill clean it up tomorrow. Eventually. Ill post the video by 2030.
> I am suprised this took this few reiterations, but viola.
> 
> Oh yeah. The faceplate. Whatever. Later. Sleep.


Nice bro,

a little advice:
-the nozzle length which will be covered by eartip is about 5 or 6mm, anything longer is fine, as long as the end of nozzle is still covered by eartips. Anything less than 3mm, and u're risking an eartips left inside your ear canal. 
-total length of the nozzle is per your taste, but try not to exceed 12mm..
-most of the schematic found in this thread sounds better on deep insertion (IMO,CMIIW), try to make ur shell a deep-insertion type.
-if u're trying to make an universal shell, make the nozzle pointing forward with little upward angle, forward angle per your taste, 5 or 10 degree upward. Straight nozzle would fit awkwardly on the ears, tin T2/T2PRO/T3 is an example of straight nozzle, it's not quite comfortable.
-if u're going to get past the 2nd bend, we're looking at multiple bend angle on the nozzle. Look at Guideray gr-18 and visionears product for some inspiration.
-1.2mm is the minimum for shell wall thickness, anything less will crumble easily.
-be eager to try other 3d modelling software, sometimes its the software capability which limit your design.


----------



## itsnotLupus (Jan 19, 2020)

I'm just a few days away from getting my stuff from SounLink, need to go shopping for capacitors and resistors but I want to be completely sure that I got everything I need and the correct pieces befor starting playing arround.
Please take a look at the diagram and tell me if you notice something wrong, out of place, or if some detail is missing. Feel free to suggest anithing that could improve that image, I did it taking in mind newbies like me. Took a lot of inspiration, notes, and ideas from all the others diagrams posted in the thread.

P.S. There is not much I can offer back to you guys, but I got some free time and making the diagram was fun, so I can help making more if needed.






Edit: The RAB goes with 30mm length, instead of 16mm. Noted by @dhruvmeena96


----------



## dhruvmeena96

itsnotLupus said:


> I'm just a few days away from getting my stuff from SounLink, need to go shopping for capacitors and resistors but I want to be completely sure that I got everything I need and the correct pieces befor starting playing arround.
> Please take a look at the diagram and tell me if you notice something wrong, out of place, or if some detail is missing. Feel free to suggest anithing that could improve that image, I did it taking in mind newbies like me. Took a lot of inspiration, notes, and ideas from all the others diagrams posted in the thread.
> 
> I'm not 100% sure about the correct Zobel values for the RAB 32063, or if it is the correct name nomenclature of this MASM 7 iteration.
> ...


the RAB goes with 30mm length
instead of 16mm

it was updated recently

resonator is the same and is on the same location


----------



## stephensynanta16

Whoa, MASM7 with resonator!

Expect a new STL for masm7 in a few days.


----------



## et.haan

stephensynanta16 said:


> Nice bro,
> 
> a little advice:
> -the nozzle length which will be covered by eartip is about 5 or 6mm, anything longer is fine, as long as the end of nozzle is still covered by eartips. Anything less than 3mm, and u're risking an eartips left inside your ear canal.
> ...


nice! I am glad to say I check most of these boxes! I think I don’t like the split bend halfway through the body of the shell, so i’ll fix that, but I do like the pentagon-shape. Its kinda like an andromeda. 

 I designed this for a CNC mill (with wall thickness) but i’m pretty sure that the thicken/offset tool can make it thick enough for printing. 

For the mill I will have to flip it.


----------



## et.haan

well, I was using my SR build the other day. Now know that I typically thought that these didnt have much of a soundstage, nor much to offer for imaging. 

I was listening to Poles Apart by Pink Floyd and there it was, at 3:02, I heard that one synth, floating around my head, about 6 inches from my ears. I was suprised at how well matched it was from left to right. This got me thinking - 

What in IEM's creates a large soundstage? Is it a result of tuning, especially with tubing, or is it with drivers?


----------



## et.haan (Dec 2, 2019)

well.... as i said a few days ago, the HODVTEC tube on my IEM’s was blocked, and I had to tear them apart to get the drivers out.... I killed an EST.  God that hurt. Into the collection.



If you have to remove them, just know that the tiny little PCB on the driver is its weakspot.

Now, @dhruvmeena96 I see your post about the 2389D. It looks very interesting, and as I have the ED out, I might want to try it, but I couldn’t find it online. Where did you find it? Is it really better than an ED or a RAF? Could I push it from 250hz all the way to 8khz? 

I do see the 2389 online. How does just one sound? Would a 2mm tube strapped over both be worth it? I would probably have to reduce to 1mm for the canal. 

Also, I think I will buy 38D1XJ007Mi/8, my HODVTEC, although it doesn’t appear broken, has a dent in one unit. I wouldn’t want to finish the build and find that horrid distortion in one ear, when it is playing at high volume. For a subwoofer, is it really that much better than the HODVTEC? It would only be playing to 100hz. I like a flat sound, but that deep rumble is very desirable.


----------



## et.haan

DONE - I need to do the top - but It will likely be attatched with CA glue - screws would have to be a pain, and I dont know how many people have taps. As for now, this is final, and is the "first" IEM I have made for this forum! Heres some renders, and its roomy! I got a CL, ED and TWFK in there. Anybody who has worked with the CL can personally attest for it being a boat.

 
 
And here is DUAL HODVTEC!! This wouldnt work as shown, theres no tubes, and the HODVTEC kind of touches the TWFK, but I think we could make it work.




Heres that drive link. I will likely put all my designs in there. In STL, this time
https://drive.google.com/drive/u/0/folders/1YEFtAz7H4XcgAGw-2GzgkFA68jSSQx0n


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Dec 2, 2019)

et.haan said:


> well.... as i said a few days ago, the HODVTEC tube on my IEM’s was blocked, and I had to tear them apart to get the drivers out.... I killed an EST.  God that hurt. Into the collection.
> 
> If you have to remove them, just know that the tiny little PCB on the driver is its weakspot.
> 
> ...


2389D is dual 2389.
Distortion rates are amazing as the driver cancels out the body vibration.

Its more peaky and extended and loud at the same. This gives us more power to damp it with resistors and damper, which give us more flexibility.

It was bought from sonion distributor.

As a replacement, you can try eAudio 1million dual ED(on taobao)

38D1XJ is better than HODVTEC


And it is not CL
But CI

Have worked with it.

Nice driver if controlled enough


----------



## Tulku1967

Hi everybody!


After building the 6 BA IEM, now I built a 10 BA IEM.
The first raw version (after about two weeks of fine tuning) produces a very encouraging sound.

One 38AJ, one 33AJ, two 2389 and two swfk 31736 (Bellsing) BA sets.
38AJ and 33AJ in a same tube with a 2nd order low pass fiter, 2389 becomes a cap and 2 Bellsing with 2nd order high pass filters.

The shell is a muster copy (no lack and sanding).

 

There is a plan to include a switch in the faceplate (Sonion SW96 or mini dip switch) that would be a bass switch.

RAW fr graph (B@K 4134, 2619, 2609 and sound card with <1ohm output impedance)


----------



## et.haan

dhruvmeena96 said:


> 2389D is dual 2389.
> Distortion rates are amazing as the driver cancels out the body vibration.
> 
> Its more peaky and extended and loud at the same. This gives us more power to damp it with resistors and damper, which give us more flexibility.
> ...


could you use 2 2389 glued together? I feel like CA glue + kapton tape + 1 2mm tube stretched over both tube would work fine

I couldn’t find the dual ED or the 2389D online, but that could be because but i’m on mobile right now. Could you send some links?

Do you think it could be pushed to 8k? It would need to be for the EST.

I know that the CL can be pushed up to like 3khz, but I didn’t know it could get that low? I was also impressed with HODVTEC, it can also play  surprisingly high, for what it is.


----------



## et.haan

Tulku1967 said:


> Hi everybody!
> 
> 
> After building the 6 BA IEM, now I built a 10 BA IEM.
> ...


mind posting a picture of the bores at the tip of the IEM? Looks great btw


----------



## Tulku1967

et.haan said:


> mind posting a picture of the bores at the tip of the IEM? Looks great btw


2 x 2389 together:

 

Bores (This is a trial copy, so I changed the tubes 1000x, I didn't pay attention to the nice work.):


----------



## et.haan

Tulku1967 said:


> 2 x 2389 together:
> 
> 
> 
> Bores (This is a trial copy, so I changed the tubes 1000x, I didn't pay attention to the nice work.):


2mm tubing? and what glue is holding them together? I know CA glue doesnt like metal.


----------



## stephensynanta16

et.haan said:


> DONE - I need to do the top - but It will likely be attatched with CA glue - screws would have to be a pain, and I dont know how many people have taps. As for now, this is final, and is the "first" IEM I have made for this forum! Heres some renders, and its roomy! I got a CL, ED and TWFK in there. Anybody who has worked with the CL can personally attest for it being a boat.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


bro, where did u get the 3d model of those BA?


----------



## et.haan (Dec 2, 2019)

lol its on their webpage for BA's
https://www.knowles.com/products/parametric-search
Select "radio communications" or "premium audio"

It came as a drawing and inventor had to assemble it, I can send you an STL if you need


----------



## et.haan

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Yes we need a KZ shell 3D scan.... That would be simple game changer



hmmm... I am up for a challange. Which IEM of theirs? Last one was sorta like an intentional Andromeda clone - with the square corners on purpose

Also, I got to use a CNC mill for the first time, and did a test run today of my IEM in wood. The stem broke, but other than that it looks really good. My teacher is a super relaxed dude, so I will definitely be able to make 10-20 pairs, and I will put them up on ebay for whatever I paid for the aluminum (your portion) + 15 bucks 

I think it will be nice that we get to use a CNC aluminium IEM shell instead of plastic for once lol

also, you guys who have successfully 3d printed a shell are crazy....

Is a 3D printer (like personal one, my library has one) usefull enough for builds? Or should I just buy a ton of drivers to try?


----------



## et.haan

SupremusDoofus said:


> Are they any good knowles SR-32453 builds in here?


i am backtracking on older posts lol.... if somebody already responded my bad... 

I did a SR 32xxx (i think 32453) build about a month ago. Sound is very nuetral. No rumbling, crushing bass, but it extends surprisingly low - like 25hz with minimal driver displacement distortion (not sure what its called, but the massive distortion that comes from a driver audibly moving at such low speeds) and 35hz without it. Suprising detail. I would certainly like to try it as a mid. 

I used a 2mm ID tube with a white damper at the end of the tube (5-6mm long) 

It NEEDS a good dac to sound good.... Iphone dongle... nothing past 16k. On my Denon home theater receiver's headphone out - a nice, sparkling extension. Extends to 19k on the denon. Try a zobel on it, I feel like it would sound amazing...


----------



## et.haan

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Hello everyone.....
> 
> There is something I would love to ask.
> 
> ...


hmmm.... like this?  Shure did something crazy like this with the 846


----------



## dhruvmeena96

et.haan said:


> hmmm... I am up for a challange. Which IEM of theirs? Last one was sorta like an intentional Andromeda clone - with the square corners on purpose
> 
> Also, I got to use a CNC mill for the first time, and did a test run today of my IEM in wood. The stem broke, but other than that it looks really good. My teacher is a super relaxed dude, so I will definitely be able to make 10-20 pairs, and I will put them up on ebay for whatever I paid for the aluminum (your portion) + 15 bucks
> 
> ...


Actually KZ ES4 but bigger



et.haan said:


> hmmm.... like this? Shure did something crazy like this with the 846


its already been done

me and @Jedrula1 have our own spiral damper
it is a low pass with a centrifugal particle acceleration to keep time domain constant

give a sense of depth to the bass


plus it doesn't require dampers and crossover


----------



## MuZo2

What driver is in https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/shuoer-tape.24059/ ?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

MuZo2 said:


> What driver is in https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/shuoer-tape.24059/ ?


https://www.sunsky-online.com/view/...r Unit Bluetooth Earphone Speaker  1 Pair.htm


Here you go
Its a sodium ceramic electret. (Better than piezoelectric)


----------



## Andrumgt

I have them, nothing special, mostly bull$hit


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Andrumgt said:


> I have them, nothing special, mostly bull$hit


Are they

But the issue is QC from manufacturer side..
Only good driver lands to aliexpress(in my experience, as some of the reputable seller hand match the drivers too....for example chitty store)


----------



## Andrumgt

Chitty store does that?! Just curious, how do they match them? They have to solder wires on them, and that makes them second hand.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Andrumgt said:


> Chitty store does that?! Just curious, how do they match them? They have to solder wires on them, and that makes them second hand.


You dont have to solder wires....

You can do it by touching contact points and check the specs by multimeter..

You can do that with BA...but will need special multimeter for BA, which operates on lower amps for specified voltages


----------



## MamatYoSekmat (Dec 3, 2019)

Friends here how to test the sound quality and sound signature, do you use a mic and soundcard and softwere or other tool specifically for that?  during this time I immediately use the ear that is attached to the driver and the cable first, then the crosover later, and this is very troublesome, even my hearing is often chaotic.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

MamatYoSekmat said:


> Friends here how to test the sound quality and sound signature, do you use a mic and soundcard and softwere or other tool specifically for that?  during this time I immediately use the ear that is attached to the driver and the cable first, then the crosover later, and this is very troublesome, even my hearing is often chaotic.


Use Dayton imm6


----------



## eunice

MamatYoSekmat said:


> Friends here how to test the sound quality and sound signature, do you use a mic and soundcard and softwere or other tool specifically for that?  during this time I immediately use the ear that is attached to the driver and the cable first, then the crosover later, and this is very troublesome, even my hearing is often chaotic.


UMIK-1 is also an option. I use it with RoomEqWizard. You can also measure impedance with RoomEqWizard (a bit of soldering required)


----------



## et.haan

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Actually KZ ES4 but bigger
> 
> 
> its already been done
> ...


i can do those, but  zs4 would probably be easier, theres a lot more pictures.

I would just use loft tool around a ton of planes, if you know inventor/autodesk


----------



## dhruvmeena96

et.haan said:


> i can do those, but  zs4 would probably be easier, theres a lot more pictures.
> 
> I would just use loft tool around a ton of planes, if you know inventor/autodesk


No prob

Need a shell which can be used universally by everybody
Make the cavity inside zs4 shell bigger by extending it outside


----------



## et.haan (Dec 4, 2019)

For everybody who bought a Dayton iMM-6, and immediately regretted it, due to its “inability” to be used as a 711 (due to its size) I figured it out. Not sure if anybody else has posted this but hua!(french)
Take the mic and some 1/2 width electrical tape. Wrap the little cutout portion until it is exactly .5in across. Make sure this tape is flat with the end of the mic.




Next, go find a .5in tube. I didn’t have one, so I used a nerf mega bullet (lol). It is exactly .5in across in inner diameter. Yes, the foam will have a damping affect on HF, (reflections) but due to the inability of the 711 to measure past 10-13.5khz, it won’t matter. Glue it on with hot glue, and make sure to seal the end. That seal is very important. Next, take a dowel or something, and make a mark at 15.75mm, and cut the tube/dart there. You can have as much of the bullet over the
mic as you want, but be sure to have as close to 15.75mm of actual overhang as possible.
Next, you need some bluetac. If you aren’t sure it makes a seal, use hot glue. I didn’t have much blue tac, so this helped. Poke a hole in the center of it, and put a driver/tube into it. If you are confident it made a seal, you are done! If not, more glue.
  

I measured mine with a HODVTEC-31618, and got surprisingly good results.



The lighter line color is the peak, or accurate sine/pink noise. Be sure to look at the dB, on the left, it has an odd scale to it.
reference:

For 20 minutes, and only parts around the house, I will certainly take that.


----------



## Andrumgt

If you’d only use millimeters instead of inches....


----------



## et.haan

Andrumgt said:


> If you’d only use millimeters instead of inches....


lol sorry for using both, I was just reading that furco post on page 2xx. It called for a 1/2in mic and the rest was in MM.


----------



## et.haan (Dec 5, 2019)

This could be totally wrong, and it is all in laymans terms, because I dont totally get this.

 Anyways, I was thinking.... so Zobel makes no physical change to driver, only electrical.  does the impedance of a driver really matter that much, enough to completely rework a drivers sound, and give it a massive soundstage/precise imaging? I was thinking, with dacs as nice as the Dragonfly and THX 789, there is no way that a zobel (if I understand what they do correctly) could make that much of a difference... I know BA is known for crazy inductance, something that is known to harm sound quality. Is this what it reduces? I dont see these amps have an issue with the resistance of a driver, just the inductance.... It makes sense to me, because I know inductance value is required for a zobel circuit.

I hear that with RAB it gives deep, rumbeling lows.... I thought this was largely impossible to change electrically, due to how the very fast speed of a BA gives it a "thin" sound. I know acoustic damping is acoustic/pnemuatic resistance, so it sound thicker and richer, due to a slower driver speed.... same thing with the highs. Does this mean that a Zobel can change the physical speed of a driver, like what could be seen on a waterfall plot?

Is there any reason not to use a Zobel... ever? If so, why isnt it incorporated into BA's, inside the housing? Does it have an application for the EST?

Also, in a circuit, where would I place it? I think, if I were to only use zobel, it would be like this (a few different applications)

MMCX/2pin > zobel > L-pad (only attatched to RC for that driver, dtec/cl/38xx/33xx) > RC filters > driver
MMCX/2pin > zobel > RC > drivers
MMCX/2pin > zobel > driver

or

MMCX/2pin > rc > zobel(s?) > driver


I think that the RC would always go after a L-pad so calculation can be made with less resistance, unless its required, for a low capacitance crossover?

Do you guys calculate crossover points with DC impedance?

I see on calculators I could do an L-pad, or use a single resistor (much higher value).... Is this how much resistance would go up?

Also, does etymotic have a zobel? On Rtings it has weird phase... Is this what a zobel does to phase?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

et.haan said:


> This could be totally wrong, and it is all in laymans terms, because I dont totally get this.
> 
> Anyways, I was thinking.... so Zobel makes no physical change to driver, only electrical.  does the impedance of a driver really matter that much, enough to completely rework a drivers sound, and give it a massive soundstage/precise imaging? I was thinking, with dacs as nice as the Dragonfly and THX 789, there is no way that a zobel (if I understand what they do correctly) could make that much of a difference... I know BA is known for crazy inductance, something that is known to harm sound quality. Is this what it reduces? I dont see these amps have an issue with the resistance of a driver, just the inductance.... It makes sense to me, because I know inductance value is required for a zobel circuit.
> 
> ...


Zobel attaches directly to driver


Driver - zobel - any circuit - mmcx

Zobel is used for equalising voltage on driver, which flattens the impedance.

It makes resonant point sound  smoother.

But its better used in crossing driver as it makes crossing very easy and specific


----------



## eunice

Zobel does not change the phase. If you where to look at a dac/amp as a perfect source with zero output impedance, zero output capacitance and zero output inductance and have a perfect cable with 0 ohms a Zobel would not change anything. 

But that does not exist!

Assume your dac has an output impedance of 10 Ohms (high assumption) and your BA has an impedance of 10 Ohms for the bass and 20 Ohms for the highs. (Realistic assumption). 

In that case you can imagine a perfect source, 10 Ohms output impedance of the dac in series to the 10 Ohms of the BA for bass sounds. That forms a voltage divider and 50% of the voltage would be present at the driver for bass. For highs it’s 10 Ohms in series and 20 Ohms of the BA, again that is a voltage divider and 66% of the voltage would be present at the driver for highs. 

If you put a network in parallel to the driver that has an inverse impedance curve the output impedance of the dac does not have an impact at all.

To counter this effect most speaker amps already have a Zobel at the output stage, I don’t know if that’s also true for headphone amp but I would imagine yes. But these Zobels are designed for dynamic drivers, they have a pretty predictable impedance curve. BAs on the other hand have rollercoasters of impedance curves. Except if you are Custom Art that is. @piotrus-g uses custom drivers with a very flat impedance curve in the Fibae series.


----------



## DannyBouwhuis

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Zobel attaches directly to driver
> 
> 
> Driver - zobel - any circuit - mmcx
> ...



How would someone design a zobel network for an entire circuit ? Using diffrent ba's ? I'm having trouble calculating this


----------



## eunice

It’s not possible. A simple Zobel with a resistor and a cap has an impedance that goes down with frequency. BAs have weirdly shaped curves so you have to find it by ear. 
@Ivan TT put a ton of caps on a breadboard and experimented by ear. He came up with a rule of thumb to start, can’t remember it though, you’ll have to dig this thread for that info.


----------



## Choy Wei De (Dec 5, 2019)

et.haan said:


> This could be totally wrong, and it is all in laymans terms, because I dont totally get this.
> 
> Anyways, I was thinking.... so Zobel makes no physical change to driver, only electrical.  does the impedance of a driver really matter that much, enough to completely rework a drivers sound, and give it a massive soundstage/precise imaging? I was thinking, with dacs as nice as the Dragonfly and THX 789, there is no way that a zobel (if I understand what they do correctly) could make that much of a difference... I know BA is known for crazy inductance, something that is known to harm sound quality. Is this what it reduces? I dont see these amps have an issue with the resistance of a driver, just the inductance.... It makes sense to me, because I know inductance value is required for a zobel circuit.
> 
> ...



I donno why, but Zobel on RAB makes all the difference to me. I can’t listen to RAB without Zobel. I have not tried other drivers with Zobel yet.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

eunice said:


> Zobel does not change the phase. If you where to look at a dac/amp as a perfect source with zero output impedance, zero output capacitance and zero output inductance and have a perfect cable with 0 ohms a Zobel would not change anything.
> 
> But that does not exist!
> 
> ...


Even I touch flat impedance on circuit
And its easy to calculate zobel once you have impedance graph

@piotrus-g uses a confidential driver...
Hahahaha


----------



## et.haan

eunice said:


> Zobel does not change the phase. If you where to look at a dac/amp as a perfect source with zero output impedance, zero output capacitance and zero output inductance and have a perfect cable with 0 ohms a Zobel would not change anything.
> 
> But that does not exist!
> 
> ...


Okay, so if not zobel, what would change the phase like that?

Also, isnt rising inductance a characteristic of BA's, which is unavoidable due to the physics of their voice coils? I do not understand how TCA could do this physically, without a zobel or a circuit similar to a zobel. On that one google docs, it lists they use pretty typical drivers.... FK, Cl, 38xx, 37xx, 17xx.  Also, from a mfg. standpoint, I dont get why other manufacturers dont use this design. I feel TCA doesnt sell as near as many units as 64 or UE does, so I dont know how they can have the money to do such a thing. 64 does crazy stuff, like chopping the sides off of their drivers, but they cant solve this issue (or so i think...I cant find a impedance graph, and you guys dont talk about their impedance so....)


----------



## et.haan

J-breezy said:


> How do some of you put the tubes down through smaller canals?
> I know some people stop the tubes short of the exit and bore a hole for the sound to escape. (Not sure how to even do this method and get the tubes the exact distance from the exit on each monitor). I had a broken pair of westones one time and they did this. I just feel like each ear won’t sound the same if the tubes aren’t in the exact same location, right?
> I’ve always done the method where you put measurements on the tubes, pull the tube out the end of your bore hole and make sure the same length is coming out of both iems. But I’ve only ever done one tube. So idk how to even go about making two fit
> 
> Secondly, when companies like JH Audio do the small metal tubes at the end of their iems, doesn’t that tiny diameter metal tube change the sound?


lol, I am looking back on old posts, and just now saw this.

For the tubes that stop short of the end of the canal, you could try taping them together (so they all sit level, and then tape the bores. Fill 2-3mm  (from the bottom) with glue. No glue in bores, no glue below sound bores. I guess this could act as a stepped horn. 

I read online that a primary reflection increases timbre and clarity, but secondary and third reflections reduce sound quality and clarity. Doing just the ends of the tubes in metal (the correct length could be determined with wavelength), and give primary reflections. Unique melody also does this.

But I dont know if you do this to meet at the ear drum, or at the end of the IEM. Look at this picture from comsol, and pay attention to how sound output from port reflects off of the sound output of the driver. Notice how they stay seperated, and dont combine.


----------



## et.haan

dhruvmeena96 said:


> To everybody who are interested in technology
> 
> Meze Audio Rai penta IEM technology demystified
> 
> ...


so its like a loop..extra air pressure not directed down the tube gets sent as back volume to woofer... interesting... couldnt that breifly change response?

Isnt this what you tried doing, where you had the sound bore with a T joint. Straight line from driver to ear. Bend back to the port? You said it sounded like open back headphones


----------



## dhruvmeena96

et.haan said:


> so its like a loop..extra air pressure not directed down the tube gets sent as back volume to woofer... interesting... couldnt that breifly change response?
> 
> Isnt this what you tried doing, where you had the sound bore with a T joint. Straight line from driver to ear. Bend back to the port? You said it sounded like open back headphones


All the sound buildup would be released more efficiently by three bores at back..

We are trying something else.

Its actually using backwave of driver and dumping in the front at certain damping factor to high pass and equalise the resonant response


----------



## et.haan (Dec 6, 2019)

Yesterday I downloaded Rode Fuzzmeazure
Is the 711 accurate down to 20hz?  I don’t feel like it is..... The HODVTEC I measured without the tube had a clearly much flatter response.... longer tube, low response got.....worse? Is it accurate for FFT waterfalls?
Here’s a 31618, 20mm tube, yellow damper at 10mm.
Be aware that i changed the visible range for frequency on the waterfall after the 31618...




I need to try without a damper, 400ms sounds really slow, doesn’t it?

There is a graph of an etymotic somewhere, can’t find it now tho

Also, would a Zobel circuit show on a waterfall?
Here’s my latest build with the SR. Its plugged into my macbook, not my denon.
 
The one without the artifact had normalization on. The one without normalization absolutely shows the resonance at 10-15k that the 711 is known for.

The one w. the artifact at 100hz looks like the lower limit of how low it can play. Or I bumped my table.

edit: i edited grammar, my writing at 7am, after 5.5hrs sleep isn’t great, sorry


----------



## et.haan

Found it. The 711 is definitely not accurate for response time. At least mine isnt. Ill try one with a metal housing eventually, but I doubt that the foam provides 200ms of damping


 
this is an interesting read: http://rinchoi.blogspot.com/2012/09/evaluating-accuracy-of-my-new-simulator.html


----------



## komplexed

Hi folks,

long time lurker from way back. I used this thread several years ago to successfully create some great ciem’s I use to this day. 
I recently pulled my DIY IEM box out of storage and thought I’d try something new.
I have a number of BA’s including Hodvtec, Swfk, CI, and 3 pairs of GV.
With all this stock, I was curious if anyone has successfully added a CI to a GV to give it that extra punch?
Would this be possible while keeping the original GV crossover intact?

Cheers


----------



## et.haan (Dec 6, 2019)

komplexed said:


> Hi folks,
> 
> long time lurker from way back. I used this thread several years ago to successfully create some great ciem’s I use to this day.
> I recently pulled my DIY IEM box out of storage and thought I’d try something new.
> ...


Hmm.  I know in loudspeaker design, mixing 2 speakers playing over themselves is sin, and is hard to sound good. But MASM 7 does it and sounds really good, so I don’t know.

There’s no way you’re going to get 3 GV in. Maybe, just maybe, you could do 2 or 3 hodvtec and 2 or 3 TWFK. But it would stick very far out of your ear. I don’t even want to think about tubing. It would have to be long, and you would have poor treble with the GV. Phase would be a nightmare.

But what I don’t understand, why the GV? There are better drivers, if you want to do a no compromise build. Sonion 381dx, with knowles DWFK and WBFK separately dampened will sound much better.

Sonion 38 has more punch than Cl

CL is a broadband driver


edit: it is better to tune and refine an IEM, than to brute force more drivers. And much easier.


----------



## komplexed (Dec 6, 2019)

et.haan said:


> Hmm.  I know in loudspeaker design, mixing 2 speakers playing over themselves is sin, and is hard to sound good. But MASM 7 does it and sounds really good, so I don’t know.
> 
> There’s no way you’re going to get 3 GV in. Maybe, just maybe, you could do 2 or 3 hodvtec and 2 or 3 TWFK. But it would stick very far out of your ear. I don’t even want to think about tubing. It would have to be long, and you would have poor treble with the GV. Phase would be a nightmare.
> 
> ...



I was thinking more along the lines of a single GV with a CI- 22955. I’m just wanting to use what I have, rather than buy new drivers.
I would imagine I’d need a good low pass on the CI so there’s not too much overlap.
I can fit a max of 3 tubes in my canal, so the GV and CI would fit nicely if I can make it all work together.


----------



## et.haan

komplexed said:


> I was thinking more along the lines of a single GV with a CI- 22955. I’m just wanting to use what I have, rather than buy new drivers.
> I would imagine I’d need a good low pass on the CI so there’s not too much overlap.
> I can fit a max of 3 tubes in my canal, so the GV and CI would fit nicely if I can make it all work together.


I would say that that is much more likely, but remember there is a GX driver with the CL and TWFK. I think it’s called the GK. Maybe do that, and incorporate ED mids. 

Also, just because you can fit 3 tubes in your canal doesn’t mean you should. A 2mm tube for your tweeter is hugely beneficial.


----------



## MamatYoSekmat

Is the quality of the cl 30120 driver much different from cl 22955?  But I did not find cl 30120 on the knowles website


----------



## komplexed

et.haan said:


> I would say that that is much more likely, but remember there is a GX driver with the CL and TWFK. I think it’s called the GK. Maybe do that, and incorporate ED mids.
> 
> Also, just because you can fit 3 tubes in your canal doesn’t mean you should. A 2mm tube for your tweeter is hugely beneficial.



Fair enough. I’m sure there are better ways to get this sound, but these are the drivers I have in my possession.
I have a set of monitors with GK’s that I use quite often for music. But they lack a bit in the mid range even when EQ’d. 
The GV has amazing highs and mids, but no where near the bass of the GK. 
I guess I’ll just play around with it and see what happens. I’m essentially looking the turn the CI into a subwoofer for the GV. If anything, it’s something fun to tinker with since I have no other use for these drivers.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

komplexed said:


> Fair enough. I’m sure there are better ways to get this sound, but these are the drivers I have in my possession.
> I have a set of monitors with GK’s that I use quite often for music. But they lack a bit in the mid range even when EQ’d.
> The GV has amazing highs and mids, but no where near the bass of the GK.
> I guess I’ll just play around with it and see what happens. I’m essentially looking the turn the CI into a subwoofer for the GV. If anything, it’s something fun to tinker with since I have no other use for these drivers.


i have done some brute forcing to GV

but can i get your just GV build and how does it sound
like a review
and at what frequency you have to improve

CI-22955
zobel cap = 15uF
resistor = 27.5ohms

dual yellow damped to avoid cross over impedance swing

you can cross it if you want and i will suggest crossing it when you can control impedance swing


----------



## et.haan

MamatYoSekmat said:


> Is the quality of the cl 30120 driver much different from cl 22955?  But I did not find cl 30120 on the knowles website


Knowles has a bunch of unlisted drivers, although I cannot speak for them specifically, oftentimes it’s just a different impedance 
I have a set of monitors with GK’s that I use quite often for music. But they lack a bit in the mid range even when EQ’d.
The GV has amazing highs and mids, but no where near the bass of the GK.
I guess I’ll just play around with it and see what happens. I’m essentially looking the turn the CI into a subwoofer for the GV. If anything, it’s something fun to tinker with since I have no other use for these drivers.[/QUOTE]
Gv and GK both have TWFK, if I am not mistaken. Try a custom crossover, with an L pad to match (and lower)  the output of the Cl to the Hodvtec


----------



## et.haan

I am about to buy a bunch of drivers and other stuff, any other suggestions? Here is my list:

Est65da01 replacement 
38X1XJ007 Sonion 
4x 2389 for 2389D
WBFK 30019 (if I can find good price)

Also would like recommendations for good RAB.. preferably with a lot of tuning headroom
Anybody have a favorite DWFK? Or thoughts about the BK? 
A bunch of dampers (1mm and 2mm)
Tubing restock
Connector restock

I’ll do MASM 7 soon.


----------



## MamatYoSekmat (Dec 7, 2019)

et.haan said:


> Knowles has a bunch of unlisted drivers, although I cannot speak for them specifically, oftentimes it’s just a different impedance
> I have a set of monitors with GK’s that I use quite often for music. But they lack a bit in the mid range even when EQ’d.
> The GV has amazing highs and mids, but no where near the bass of the GK.
> I guess I’ll just play around with it and see what happens. I’m essentially looking the turn the CI into a subwoofer for the GV. If anything, it’s something fun to tinker with since I have no other use for these drivers.


Gv and GK both have TWFK, if I am not mistaken. Try a custom crossover, with an L pad to match (and lower)  the output of the Cl to the Hodvtec[/QUOTE]


et.haan said:


> I am about to buy a bunch of drivers and other stuff, any other suggestions? Here is my list:
> 
> Est65da01 replacement
> 38X1XJ007 Sonion
> ...


The seller said the same as CL 22955, only differed 2-4 ohms, but he did not know the response freq, so far I used cl, ed and twfk with cl damper from sponge earbuds placed at the end of Nozol CL sounds pretty good, but not a little  in the bass section.  And wanted to make more because that one had been stolen by a monkey after sunbathing after polishing


----------



## MamatYoSekmat

et.haan said:


> Knowles has a bunch of unlisted drivers, although I cannot speak for them specifically, oftentimes it’s just a different impedance
> I have a set of monitors with GK’s that I use quite often for music. But they lack a bit in the mid range even when EQ’d.
> The GV has amazing highs and mids, but no where near the bass of the GK.
> I guess I’ll just play around with it and see what happens. I’m essentially looking the turn the CI into a subwoofer for the GV. If anything, it’s something fun to tinker with since I have no other use for these drivers.


Gv and GK both have TWFK, if I am not mistaken. Try a custom crossover, with an L pad to match (and lower)  the output of the Cl to the Hodvtec[/QUOTE]
The seller said the same as CL 22955, only differed 2-4 ohms, but he did not know the response freq, so far I used cl, ed and twfk with cl damper from sponge earbuds placed at the end of Nozol CL sounds pretty good, but not a little  in the bass section.  And wanted to make more because that one had been stolen by a monkey after sunbathing after polishing


----------



## et.haan

MamatYoSekmat said:


> Gv and GK both have TWFK, if I am not mistaken. Try a custom crossover, with an L pad to match (and lower)  the output of the Cl to the Hodvtec


The seller said the same as CL 22955, only differed 2-4 ohms, but he did not know the response freq, so far I used cl, ed and twfk with cl damper from sponge earbuds placed at the end of Nozol CL sounds pretty good, but not a little  in the bass section.  And wanted to make more because that one had been stolen by a monkey after sunbathing after polishing[/QUOTE]
Makes sense. I know that there is also a CL out there without a center tap, but I forgot the model. 

A monkey?


----------



## MamatYoSekmat

et.haan said:


> The seller said the same as CL 22955, only differed 2-4 ohms, but he did not know the response freq, so far I used cl, ed and twfk with cl damper from sponge earbuds placed at the end of Nozol CL sounds pretty good, but not a little  in the bass section.  And wanted to make more because that one had been stolen by a monkey after sunbathing after polishing


Makes sense. I know that there is also a CL out there without a center tap, but I forgot the model.

A monkey?[/QUOTE]
Yes, and was bitten by running away, maybe think of a lollipop


----------



## et.haan

Wow, Indonesia sounds cool.


----------



## MamatYoSekmat

MamatYoSekmat said:


> Gv and GK both have TWFK, if I am not mistaken. Try a custom crossover, with an L pad to match (and lower)  the output of the Cl to the Hodvtec


The seller said the same as CL 22955, only differed 2-4 ohms, but he did not know the response freq, so far I used cl, ed and twfk with cl damper from sponge earbuds placed at the end of Nozol CL sounds pretty good, but not a little  in the bass section.  And wanted to make more because that one had been stolen by a monkey after sunbathing after polishing[/QUOTE]


et.haan said:


> Knowles has a bunch of unlisted drivers, although I cannot speak for them specifically, oftentimes it’s just a different impedance
> I have a set of monitors with GK’s that I use quite often for music. But they lack a bit in the mid range even when EQ’d.
> The GV has amazing highs and mids, but no where near the bass of the GK.
> I guess I’ll just play around with it and see what happens. I’m essentially looking the turn the CI into a subwoofer for the GV. If anything, it’s something fun to tinker with since I have no other use for these drivers.


Gv and GK both have TWFK, if I am not mistaken. Try a custom crossover, with an L pad to match (and lower)  the output of the Cl to the Hodvtec[/QUOTE]
Maybe it's a fake product, because the price is far different


----------



## et.haan

MamatYoSekmat said:


> The seller said the same as CL 22955, only differed 2-4 ohms, but he did not know the response freq, so far I used cl, ed and twfk with cl damper from sponge earbuds placed at the end of Nozol CL sounds pretty good, but not a little  in the bass section.  And wanted to make more because that one had been stolen by a monkey after sunbathing after polishing



Gv and GK both have TWFK, if I am not mistaken. Try a custom crossover, with an L pad to match (and lower)  the output of the Cl to the Hodvtec[/QUOTE]
Maybe it's a fake product, because the price is far different[/QUOTE]
no, the CL is insanely cheap, on Taobao it can be as low as 5 bucks: https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?sp...T5hAn&id=541773306856&ns=1&abbucket=14#detail

Unless you consider bellsing, there are no "fake" drivers.... they are far too hard to produce. Knowles has HUNDREDS of drivers that are not officially listed. Same with sonion, but less so. And personally, I think their documentation is a little better.


----------



## MamatYoSekmat

et.haan said:


> Wow, Indonesia sounds cool.


Yes just assembling, imported materials 
And I'm very thankful for making this threads, very helpful without bullying


----------



## et.haan

MamatYoSekmat said:


> Yes just assembling, imported materials
> And I'm very thankful for making this threads, very helpful without bullying


yes, it is a great recourse. Shipping must be frustrating though

It is funny though, I go on other thread and see people get mad at frequent members to here (the ones that have a clear engineering background/interest), especially drhuv, despite how nice (and informative) he is. Why? A lot of the members here - despite having an extreme interest in audio - know nothing about the science of it. When they realize they spent such a large amount of money on placebo, they get mad.

This thread is great though.


----------



## et.haan

Oh boy, This is a long one. Sit down, grab a caliper, and follow along. 

 
Anyways, I was looking around for people using the BK driver.... not many people have, and nobody wants to write about it. I am guessing that it is so cheap that so many people skip over it, and try the RAB.... 

Anyways, people were talking about the Campfire Andromeda mid being a BK.... I am not so sure anymore. I wanted to buy it, as I have a 31618 and a 30017 laying around, waiting to be used. And so I looked and looked for it....


 
Yes, it is rebranded, but literally every company has rebranded drivers now, with a no-match number, as well as a basic version of their logo. 

First, lets eliminate BK. All of the BK drivers are around 7.87mm (not including spout) - HODVTEC is around 8. The driver sits atop the HODVTEC - and is considerably shorter than it. Not it. RAB? The length is right, though! But the RAB is too skinny! The driver here has considerable overhang south of the HODVTEC, but the top still sits above the seam at the center of the HODVTEC. And no, no RAB have the solder points rotated 90 degrees. 
Its an ED. Look at the vent. It also has the same, perfect dimensions, on my two. 
 
 
That driver has been throught quite the ruts lol. Look at the dent

But our quest is not over. I think it is a Bellsing. As for time of the start of the company, its possible.  
Why? The font. 

I know, I know, its stupid. Stay with me.  Also, I cant take full credit for it, some guy on a Japanese IEM forum pointed out the font. 
The lettering on both Sonion and Knowles is very distinct (even when MFG's rebrand) - they do 2 things for knowles - black engraving (rare, old, likely done by IEM mfg.) or now,  the Knowles font and their logo. Both will have a non related number printed. Below is clearly a Cl, with  a number much more likely to be used by Sonion. I feel like this is so they dont have to worry about new drivers being out of names.



 
Look at the font of the bellsing 22955 compared to the Knowles HODVTEC. Afterwards, look again at font on the andromeda.... suspicious...


 
you CANT tell me you dont see the difference. The height of the letters, and how the Bellsing are  much deeper.


----------



## MamatYoSekmat

et.haan said:


> Oh boy, This is a long one. Sit down, grab a caliper, and follow along.
> 
> Anyways, I was looking around for people using the BK driver.... not many people have, and nobody wants to write about it. I am guessing that it is so cheap that so many people skip over it, and try the RAB....
> 
> ...


for knowles bk, rab and belsing are hard to get at asian online stores, guess what you open andromeda using a driver, is there a match in size with knowles or sonion


----------



## SupremusDoofus

et.haan said:


> But our quest is not over. I think it is a Bellsing. As for time of the start of the company, its possible.
> Why? The font.
> 
> ]


There was a lawsuit by knowles which revealed that cfa used bellsing drivers in their iems. Some people speculated that it was solaris due to the unit variance issues, i.e some units used bellsing drivers while others used knowles ones.


----------



## et.haan

MamatYoSekmat said:


> for knowles bk, rab and belsing are hard to get at asian online stores, guess what you open andromeda using a driver, is there a match in size with knowles or sonion


Im not totally sure I understand what you are saying, do you mean it could be Sonion?


----------



## et.haan

SupremusDoofus said:


> There was a lawsuit by knowles which revealed that cfa used bellsing drivers in their iems. Some people speculated that it was solaris due to the unit variance issues, i.e some units used bellsing drivers while others used knowles ones.


I think I heard of this....It could just be solely Bellsing in their products, and their pooer(er) quality control led to belief of both.

It could be the Andromeda too though.


----------



## MamatYoSekmat

et.haan said:


> Im not totally sure I understand what you are saying, do you mean it could be Sonion?


Sorry I can't speak English, this is translated from Google Translate, it's hard to explain


----------



## MamatYoSekmat

et.haan said:


> Im not totally sure I understand what you are saying, do you mean it could be Sonion?


Kan Andromeda uses 5 drivers not from the aftermarket, maybe those 5 drivers match the size and physicality of other products such as knowles rab, bk, ed ... or sonion ...?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

et.haan said:


> Oh boy, This is a long one. Sit down, grab a caliper, and follow along.
> 
> Anyways, I was looking around for people using the BK driver.... not many people have, and nobody wants to write about it. I am guessing that it is so cheap that so many people skip over it, and try the RAB....
> 
> ...


Hmmm
Interesting stuff

Its a custom HODVTEC
A bellsing custom
And not sure its TWFK or SWFK

But instead of taking apart Andromeda...let's make a diy Andromeda slayer.

5 driver is the limit.

Anybody in


----------



## et.haan

Its a SWFK. Everyone always thinks it is TWFK, and it drives me nuts. I explain that later. 

ED or Bellsing ED for mids

Hodvtec is still the same, maybe different impedance but same output

FK aspect of a TWFK (woofer) has a vent. SWFK does not. Look at the glue in this photo. There’s no way there is a vent, especially with the quality control aspect of hot glue. The back of the SWFK is completely underwater.
 


But I am absolutely down for the challenge. The resonator will be hard. I don’t think it uses any dampers, but as we don’t know for sure, those are still fair game. Zobel circuit of course can be used. 

I haven’t heard the andro, but I know they are fairly nuetral, hard to drive and a sparkly treble. 
It will be hard to replicate without hearing them though.


----------



## et.haan (Dec 8, 2019)

MamatYoSekmat said:


> Kan Andromeda uses 5 drivers not from the aftermarket, maybe those 5 drivers match the size and physicality of other products such as knowles rab, bk, ed ... or sonion ...?


well, they could be custom, but all knowles’s driver family have same diaphragm and housing, just different coils for impedance.

Except RAB (maybe), a few of those drivers pretty different response, even under test conditions (low impedance amp so that driver impedance barely affects response) 
I doubt it’s sonion, they don’t have a vent on their models in that spot, and their metal housings look different.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Dec 8, 2019)

et.haan said:


> Its a SWFK. Everyone always thinks it is TWFK, and it drives me nuts. I explain that later.
> 
> ED or Bellsing ED for mids
> 
> ...


We might end with better sound
HODVTEC 31618
Sonion 2356
SWFK31736


----------



## et.haan (Dec 8, 2019)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> We might end with better sound


definitely possible. I know these are super hard to drive, and I heavily doubt there is a Zobel.  so with ability to use Zobel, and a bigger housing, we could have a big advantage.

Also just bought 4 2389’s and the replacement EST for my other build


----------



## Choy Wei De

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Hmmm
> Interesting stuff
> 
> Its a custom HODVTEC
> ...



I want to make a andromeda slayer!!!


----------



## et.haan

dhruvmeena96 said:


> We might end with better sound
> HODVTEC 31618
> Sonion 2356
> SWFK31736


Any speculation for the Resonator, based off their renders? 
Watch this: 
Could be 2 spoutless WBFK’s glued together.

I don’t know if any spoutless swfk


----------



## et.haan (Dec 8, 2019)

I feel like the FK lineup will continue to be frequently discussed here, so here is a little guide for remembering all the names


sorry my handwriting is terrible, and the picture didn’t rotate.
 Anybody know anything about the QWFK? google brings back nothing

Every FK-type ever made:
https://www.mouser.com/PCN/Knowles_Corporation_PCN_20190611_WBFK_SFY_+_Thermobond_General_Market.pdf

EDIT: I forgot DFK. Seems like old DWFK, from 2008.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

et.haan said:


> I feel like the FK lineup will continue to be frequently discussed here, so here is a little guide for remembering all the names
> 
> sorry my handwriting is terrible, and the picture didn’t rotate.
> Anybody know anything about the QWFK? google brings back nothing
> ...


there is DFK also


----------



## MamatYoSekmat

Choy Wei De said:


> I want to make a andromeda slayer!!!


Yes the reviewer said


----------



## wardy

Hey guys what is the BEST single driver setup you guys have come across? Currently using a 37757 with a white filter and its not quite there, any suggestions on maybe using different drivers or a different setup?
Cheers


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Dec 8, 2019)

MamatYoSekmat said:


> Yes the reviewer said


Who is the reviewer


wardy said:


> Hey guys what is the BEST single driver setup you guys have come across? Currently using a 37757 with a white filter and its not quite there, any suggestions on maybe using different drivers or a different setup?
> Cheers


Its 32257

@et.haan

Its not CL but ci(CI)

Now Andromeda slayer

Its simple

HODVTEC 31618
Zobel from DCR
Yellow damper near spout

2354
Zobel from DCR
Orange damper near spout

Both in parallel

Same lenght tube on both driver
Use the small size damper

Because both driver will have 1mm ID tube



SWFK31736
Cross so that it can create a 8kHz peak on a system with resonance at 8kHz but also not adding to mids

Damperless
2mm ID tube



As per orignal Andromeda

They low passed the mid and woofer
And the SWFK impedance makes it very weird

Bad Amps will make it brighter


This one avoids thats and keeps impedance superlow


This would measure like 2.4ohms flat


So do add some resistor in series to it


2354 inductance is 1.5mH
HODVTEC inductance is given in datasheet


----------



## Choy Wei De

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Who is the reviewer
> 
> Its 32257
> 
> ...



@et.haan 

yes RAB 32257 with white filter. Unless you have a different preference.


----------



## SupremusDoofus

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Hmmm
> Interesting stuff
> 
> Its a custom HODVTEC
> ...


That would be awesome!


----------



## MamatYoSekmat

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Who is the reviewer
> 
> Its 32257
> 
> ...


https://headfonics.com/2016/08/the-andromeda-by-campfire-audio/


----------



## MamatYoSekmat (Dec 8, 2019)

Maybe enough, because even though the housing is small but flat.  And I've also had KZ ZS6


SupremusDoofus said:


> That would be awesome!


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Dec 8, 2019)

MamatYoSekmat said:


> https://headfonics.com/2016/08/the-andromeda-by-campfire-audio/






This gonna make some Andromeda fans bleed..

I am like

Seriously
Why


Plus I have been spoiled so much by different iteration of Harman kardon profiles and some of my specific tuning that now I feel Andromeda is just shimmer...nothing more...

Andromeda when I heard for first time was like wow..

But after hearing Noble khan, 64audio U12T, Custom Art FIBAE 7 universal , FIBAE black and Warbler prelude...I feel Andromeda lacking everywhere


----------



## et.haan

dhruvmeena96 said:


> there is DFK also


yeah, i keep forgetting about DFK. From 2008, probably early DWFK. Spike at 3khz, good midrange for harmon response.



Choy Wei De said:


> @et.haan
> 
> yes RAB 32257 with white filter. Unless you have a different preference.


Also, SR-32453 with white filter is very neutral. Hard to drive, maybe try a zobel. 



dhruvmeena96 said:


> Its not CL but ci(CI)


Yeah, i know, bad habit
I saw it written as Cl once and know I keep saying it
It annoys me too lol


----------



## et.haan

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Who is the reviewer
> 
> Its 32257
> 
> ...



Nicely done
Would this be easier to drive than original Andro
Also Andro is good becasue meh DAP's give good improvement, from what I have heard
Iphone dongle to Dragonfly is a big improvement
Dragonfly to anything nicer, improvement is negligible. 

Good portable endgame

Is sonion mid cheating? maybe
We dont care though lol

Damperless SWFK is the secret.  I think they use it like the EST, just a cherry on top. Gives it those perfect highs.


----------



## et.haan

dhruvmeena96 said:


> This gonna make some Andromeda fans bleed..
> 
> I am like
> 
> ...


Wow, there really has been a big improvement in IEM's over last few years
I need to hear some nicer IEM's ASAP. 
Nicest headphones I have heard are 650's. Nicest iem..... My sr build. 

Well done though.
What app is this? 
Green is response, grey is impedance, right? or green is phase? lol


----------



## dhruvmeena96

et.haan said:


> Nicely done
> Would this be easier to drive than original Andro
> Also Andro is good becasue meh DAP's give good improvement, from what I have heard
> Iphone dongle to Dragonfly is a big improvement
> ...


Can try EST

Its a choice


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Dec 8, 2019)

et.haan said:


> Wow, there really has been a big improvement in IEM's over last few years
> I need to hear some nicer IEM's ASAP.
> Nicest headphones I have heard are 650's. Nicest iem..... My sr build.
> 
> ...


Green is impedance
Grey is phase

And thats what make Andromeda so much less technically advance

I feel Andromeda is crap in electrical and electronics department

And tricks ear in having airy soundstage but is 2D panned wide

Its a cheat iem


----------



## et.haan

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Green is impedance
> Grey is phase


Well done. Dayton DATS v2?


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Dec 8, 2019)

et.haan said:


> Well done. Dayton DATS v2?


No...its a measurement of a friend
But thats not the point

See the impedance

Andromeda is electrically garbage..

Tried with old amp
And bass vanished and everything is sharp and harsh

Worry not

New one will not swing

Plus

I think its better to L-pad woofer and mid combo because andro is 100dB on midrange point

That will make tweeter shine too


----------



## et.haan

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Can try EST
> 
> Its a choice


yeah I would like to see 



dhruvmeena96 said:


> No...its a measurement of a friend
> But thats not the point
> 
> See the impedance
> ...


Would dats v2 give same result? 
Lol I thought it was response of just the SWFK. That’s bad. 

How about: Lowering HODVTEC to ED levels
Lower ED and HODVTEC maybe 3-5db and letting ED play higher
Or replace ED with Sonion mid


----------



## dhruvmeena96

et.haan said:


> yeah I would like to see
> 
> 
> Would dats v2 give same result?
> ...


I am still building it

Will share whole design when complete..


----------



## et.haan

Would a dayton audio DATS product work on IEM’s? I worry about too much current 

If not what do you guys use for testing impedance


----------



## eunice

et.haan said:


> If not what do you guys use for testing impedance


RoomEqWizard with a simple jig: https://www.roomeqwizard.com/help/help_en-GB/html/impedancemeasurement.html


----------



## alpha421 (Dec 10, 2019)

Not sure if this is the correct thread, but I got some naked Massdrop Plus drivers (triple BA drivers) and its guts connected to what looks like SMD resistors.  The damn shells cracked/shattered after being sandwiched in between my car door while I had them in my parka lower hand-pocket.  I'm assuming there isn't any damage to the drivers and its wired network, but I can't guarantee it as I have no way of validating.

My plans to sell them has been foiled.  Boo-the-damn-hoo to me.

Anyhoot, I'm assuming they can be repurposed by someone here.  They are free, but ask for shipping cost of $4 CONUS and $12 International.  I'm sure assuming the drivers are all functional, they are worth a lot more than the shipping cost.  Just PM me.

And so there's no confusion, it's just the driver network and little piece of broken shell with the 2pin female connector.


----------



## sanekn

Guys hey, long time no see.

So it's been a while now i didn't touch my iem stuffs. My pair is died after a drop at hard floor. Recently realised that i had poor results because used 395nm leds for curing and shells were constantly inconsistent in thickness, sometimes had holes in it. So i bought some expensive-ass 365nm leds, a power supply and some resistors from mouser (LTPL-C034UVH365 is the number for those leds).

SO i took 10 of them and wanted to wire them in 5 parallel 2 series. But i'm a huge bum in electronics so if anyone can help me to figure out if i did the math right before i kill 50€ worth of stuff...
I have a 12v 3a power supply and after all the calcuations i assumed i need a 9ohm resistances, leds are 3.8v and 500mA. Can anyone confirm this clumsy drawing?
Bought 12 and 30 ohm resistors just in case.

Wanted to do 2 rows 5 columns of those in the 100mm pvc pipe with two mirrors on top and bottom.

Thank you in advance guys,

Have a nice one.


----------



## et.haan

alpha421 said:


> Not sure if this is the correct thread, but I got some naked Massdrop Plus drivers (triple BA drivers) and its guts connected to what looks like SMD resistors.  The damn shells cracked/shattered after being sandwiched in between my car door while I had them in my parka lower hand-pocket.  I'm assuming there isn't any damage to the drivers and its wired network, but I can't guarantee it as I have no way of validating.
> 
> My plans to sell them has been foiled.  Boo-the-damn-hoo to me.
> 
> ...


interested, mine posting a closer photo of the woofer, and any text if you can read it? Its sonion 3800 series, what else i’m not sure


----------



## alpha421

I just PM you the info.  Not going to disclose the driver models in a public forum out of respect to MD/Drop.


----------



## alpha421

Thanks for all the interest.  Drivers are going to pace88.


----------



## et.haan

Hopefully receiving my drivers soon, but in the mean time, anybody have a zobel for Sonion 38D1XJ or sonion 2389D

Not dedicated to series or paralel, so take that as you will


----------



## dhruvmeena96

alpha421 said:


> Thanks for all the interest.  Drivers are going to pace88.


@pace88 
He is an amazing guy

By the way @alpha421 

I had a concept of a cable with zero internal reflectance and extremely low resistance without using any pure expensive stuff.... 
Asking if you are interested


----------



## pace88

dhruvmeena96 said:


> @pace88
> He is an amazing guy
> 
> By the way @alpha421
> ...


 thanks Prof.D


----------



## alanwcruz

@dhruvmeena96 how right you were...

3D printed shells + MASM 7 + O2 Amp (massdrop) + oppo HA2-SE


----------



## et.haan

alanwcruz said:


> @dhruvmeena96 how right you were...
> 
> 3D printed shells + MASM 7 + O2 Amp (massdrop) + oppo HA2-SE


nice, what printer? What resin?


----------



## eunice

alanwcruz said:


> @dhruvmeena96 how right you were...
> 
> 3D printed shells + MASM 7 + O2 Amp (massdrop) + oppo HA2-SE


I have so many questions. How did you do the scans? Photogrammetry? How is the comfort, can you feel the layer lines/pixel artifacts? What resin, what printer?


----------



## alanwcruz

et.haan said:


> nice, what printer? What resin?





eunice said:


> I have so many questions. How did you do the scans? Photogrammetry? How is the comfort, can you feel the layer lines/pixel artifacts? What resin, what printer?



@et.haan Elegoo Mars using Elegoo transparent blue.

@eunice yup, used photogrammetry, though I had to paint my impressions with some green and black chalk spray paint to get good results, comfort wise they are much more comfortable that my previous manually made shells, but I think this has more to do with the digital post processing on the scans since I apply a coat of lacquer after everything is printed and assembled. Assembly is a million times easier, having perfect bores and consistent shell width makes things very very easy.


----------



## et.haan (Dec 11, 2019)

Here is what I am thinking - Sonion 38D1x - parallel (6 ohms DC)
zobel - 135uF cap (130uF MLCC's will be bought) + 7.625ohm resistor (7.68 will be bought
Lowpassed at 150hz - (RC components will be bought once impedance with Zobel is mapped

Sonion 2389D - series - I still need inductance values for Zobel (8 in series ohms DC) (I contacted Sonion)
Bandpass from ~300hz to 7khz

Connect these two in series for 36ohm AC resistance average

L pad or U pad (would appreciate recommendation) both 15db

Est65da01 highpassed 8khz
I read somewhere it doesnt need zobel, and besides, the Inductance looks pretty good

Connect these two, in series, for a  56ohm output at the 2pin

Anybody see any problems

Impedence will be pretty flat

Only 3b/octave, unless you guys think otherwise


----------



## et.haan

alanwcruz said:


> @et.haan Elegoo Mars using Elegoo transparent blue.
> 
> @eunice yup, used photogrammetry, though I had to paint my impressions with some green and black chalk spray paint to get good results, comfort wise they are much more comfortable that my previous manually made shells, but I think this has more to do with the digital post processing on the scans since I apply a coat of lacquer after everything is printed and assembled. Assembly is a million times easier, having perfect bores and consistent shell width makes things very very easy.


Defintely interested in this process. Did you wax and trim the impressions, or just trim them? Do they extend pass the second bend? I love the fit of past the second bend, but its a real pain to get to feel right with wax. It took me like 15-20 dip attempts for nice (even) comfort.

Lack3 lacquer? Individual bores, or did you do multiple holes in your CAD software


----------



## alanwcruz

et.haan said:


> Defintely interested in this process. Did you wax and trim the impressions, or just trim them? Do they extend pass the second bend? I love the fit of past the second bend, but its a real pain to get to feel right with wax. It took me like 15-20 dip attempts for nice (even) comfort.
> 
> Lack3 lacquer? Individual bores, or did you do multiple holes in your CAD software



No wax and no trimming, these two steps were done on the 3D model, I made the cut on the model just above the second bend, on the 3D model I made a .6mm extrusion on the final 5-6mm of the canal and the fit is just perfect, not too tight not too loose, took me a couple of tries to get that parameter, I started with a .8mm extrusion and went down from there.

I made the MASM7 with two bores, both holes were done on the software side.

You can see both bores and the extrusion on the canal in these pictures:


----------



## et.haan

alanwcruz said:


> No wax and no trimming, these two steps were done on the 3D model, I made the cut on the model just above the second bend, on the 3D model I made a .6mm extrusion on the final 5-6mm of the canal and the fit is just perfect, not too tight not too loose, took me a couple of tries to get that parameter, I started with a .8mm extrusion and went down from there.
> 
> I made the MASM7 with two bores, both holes were done on the software side.
> 
> You can see both bores and the extrusion on the canal in these pictures:


very interesting, very well done. I would love to try integrating tubes into the shell like a certain company does (65-1 audio) 

Did you filet (or whatever your CAD calls it) the tip extrusion, to smooth the transfer between it and the canal?


----------



## alanwcruz

et.haan said:


> very interesting, very well done. I would love to try integrating tubes into the shell like a certain company does (65-1 audio)
> 
> Did you filet (or whatever your CAD calls it) the tip extrusion, to smooth the transfer between it and the canal?



Sure did, it's called a smoothing deform. Any sharp corners on anything that has contact with your inner ear is very painful.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

alanwcruz said:


> @dhruvmeena96 how right you were...
> 
> 3D printed shells + MASM 7 + O2 Amp (massdrop) + oppo HA2-SE


Did you like it..
Nice

Too much midrange though


----------



## sanekn (Dec 12, 2019)

uys pls help the noob out, is my sheme any good? It's for a curing chamber. Thank you folks.


----------



## eunice

Hard to tell. Depends on the forward voltage drop of your LED. Better drive LED using a constant current source or a specific LED driver - or get LED strips with included drivers. 
But this is a thread about building IEMs, you’ll be better off in a general electronics forum for this particular issue, there also are a ton of YouTube videos on the subject of driving LEDs.


----------



## Tulku1967

et.haan said:


> Here is what I am thinking - Sonion 38D1x - parallel (6 ohms DC)
> zobel - 135uF cap (130uF MLCC's will be bought) + 7.625ohm resistor (7.68 will be bought
> Lowpassed at 150hz - (RC components will be bought once impedance with Zobel is mapped
> 
> ...



Sonion 38D1X has 12,5 ohm DC paralel...


----------



## MuZo2

alanwcruz said:


> @et.haan Elegoo Mars using Elegoo transparent blue.
> 
> @eunice yup, used photogrammetry, though I had to paint my impressions with some green and black chalk spray paint to get good results, comfort wise they are much more comfortable that my previous manually made shells, but I think this has more to do with the digital post processing on the scans since I apply a coat of lacquer after everything is printed and assembled. Assembly is a million times easier, having perfect bores and consistent shell width makes things very very easy.



Project looks cool, but sorry to tell you you need to throw away the shells as soon as possible as your ears are more valuable. You need to use biocompatible resins like 
https://www.detax.de/en/content/3D-Produkte.php
https://www.3dresyns.com/pages/bio-compatible-3dresyns

Resin you used is not skin safe even after curing and specially when its used in ears.


----------



## sanekn (Dec 12, 2019)

eunice said:


> Hard to tell. Depends on the forward voltage drop of your LED. Better drive LED using a constant current source or a specific LED driver - or get LED strips with included drivers.
> But this is a thread about building IEMs, you’ll be better off in a general electronics forum for this particular issue, there also are a ton of YouTube videos on the subject of driving LEDs.


Thank you man. The power source is MEAN WELL IDLV-45-12 and actually sold as a LED driver. So hope it'll work out. I asked here cause it's for a curing chamber for iems and there are so many folks who knows something about electronics 

My leds are those :https://eu.mouser.com/datasheet/2/239/LTPL-C034UVHXXX UV 3535 Lens type Series_Ver3.4_20-1108924.pdf


----------



## eunice (Dec 12, 2019)

LED drivers are a constant current source, so you should be safe with your schematics - if you carefully crank up the current from the source. Put a multimeter in series to one of your leds in amp mode to make sure to not go over the rated mA of the LED (it’s a PWM so make sure your multimeter can read that accurately, if it says true rms it will be able to read it). The resistors are required if you wire LED in parallel, as LED reduce their resistance when they get hot, therefore drawing more power and getting even hotter - thermal runaway. The constant current source only regulates the current at the  output and the resistor alleviates the thermal runaway a bit. Ideally you would wire all LED in series without a resistor and let the driver do its job, but for that the driver needs to be able to deliver the voltage required (Vout needs to be larger than the forward voltage of one LED + number of LEDs * voltage drop across one LED). If your source cannot deliver that voltage you need to wire it the way you drew it. Then you should be good as long as you don’t turn up the power too much.
@All, sorry for bloating this thread, but since it’s about building a curing chamber it’s remotely related to the topic.


----------



## sanekn

eunice said:


> LED drivers are a constant current source, so you should be safe with your schematics - if you carefully crank up the current from the source. Put a multimeter in series to one of your leds in amp mode to make sure to not go over the rated mA of the LED (it’s a PWM so make sure your multimeter can read that accurately, if it says true rms it will be able to read it). The resistors are required if you wire LED in parallel, as LED reduce their resistance when they get hot, therefore drawing more power and getting even hotter - thermal runaway. The constant current source only regulates the current at the  output and the resistor alleviates the thermal runaway a bit. You should be good as long as you don’t turn up the power too much.
> @All, sorry for bloating this thread, but since it’s about building a curing chamber it’s remotely related to the topic.


Thank you man, you've been very helpful!


----------



## alanwcruz

MuZo2 said:


> Project looks cool, but sorry to tell you you need to throw away the shells as soon as possible as your ears are more valuable. You need to use biocompatible resins like
> https://www.detax.de/en/content/3D-Produkte.php
> https://www.3dresyns.com/pages/bio-compatible-3dresyns
> 
> Resin you used is not skin safe even after curing and specially when its used in ears.



Great catch! I'm gonna be getting some of those resins for sure.

Thanks!


----------



## et.haan

Tulku1967 said:


> Sonion 38D1X has 12,5 ohm DC paralel...


I am pretty sure that the 12.5 figure is for a single half of the driver


----------



## Tulku1967

et.haan said:


> I am pretty sure that the 12.5 figure is for a single half of the driver


Not


----------



## ForceMajeure

Tulku is right, I just measured the rdc and it's ~12.5ohm for the 38D1x (parallel wiring)


----------



## et.haan

Tulku1967 said:


> Not





ForceMajeure said:


> Tulku is right, I just measured the rdc and it's ~12.5ohm for the 38D1x (parallel wiring)


It comes with a parallel connection pre soldered? or you wired it? 

Either way, i’ll be using it parallel, to keep it closer to my 2389D at 8 ohms series.


----------



## et.haan (Dec 20, 2019)

I just want to say a quick thank you to everybody on this forum - I am sorry for posting a ton (I think I won the race to a 100+ Head-fier) like its a groupchat, but there is so much great information, and so much to learn.

You guys answer my questions, no matter how dumb they are, and the community can learn from each others mistakes. I think it is great that we are this active - not only do we learn combinations that work well - but those that dont. It can save all of us lots of money.

If the members of this thread held a branch ownership of an IEM company, I think we would have a lineup that would be pretty damn good.

On a side note - the milled earbuds are going on a temporary break - I broke a bit (still learning about toolpaths), and thanks to the extremely slow process of ordering something with grant money, it may be a while. However, I am experimenting with wood and other bits for now.

I also think that we should work on getting group projects better coverage- like the MASM series, and the andro killer dhruv and I are interested in working on. However, t it should be easier to access, so newbies dont have to sift through the 700 pages that this thread is.

side note 2- I am remaking my 711 out of walnut, as the the foam Nerf bullet may have damped too much - and I feel the length of it contributes negatively to its inaccuracy. Probably because the hot glue that I added, to give the blu-tac something to bond to, makes it too long.

edit- I also find it funny almost all of us type in these short paragraph things, that are a line or two long


----------



## Xymordos

MuZo2 said:


> Project looks cool, but sorry to tell you you need to throw away the shells as soon as possible as your ears are more valuable. You need to use biocompatible resins like
> https://www.detax.de/en/content/3D-Produkte.php
> https://www.3dresyns.com/pages/bio-compatible-3dresyns
> 
> Resin you used is not skin safe even after curing and specially when its used in ears.



You could coat it in the UV lacquer by Egger or Dreve and it'll be safer


----------



## eunice

Xymordos said:


> You could coat it in the UV lacquer by Egger or Dreve and it'll be safer


He already said he did that. He should be safe.


----------



## ForceMajeure

et.haan said:


> It comes with a parallel connection pre soldered? or you wired it?
> 
> Either way, i’ll be using it parallel, to keep it closer to my 2389D at 8 ohms series.



No, it comes unwired


----------



## HiFi47 (Dec 14, 2019)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Add a zobel(DCR) and L-pad
> 
> Value of L-pad
> 
> ...



So, finally mission completed. My first DIY Iems are done, and they sound great!

Many thanks to dhruvmeena96 and Mas Tio from Jaben Network Jogjakarta


----------



## dhruvmeena96

HiFi47 said:


> So, finally mission completed. My first DIY Iems are done, and they sound great!
> 
> 
> 
> Many thanks to dhruvmeena96 and Mas Tio from Jaben Network Jogjakarta


Which driver...since shells look huge

RAB is tiny driver man


----------



## et.haan

Hey guys, at our scale, how much does phase coherency matter? I saw the Jerry Harvery Freqphase video (here  ) and thought "crap, im going to have to completely change the design for my IEM's" (which is quite the problem for the nature of the EST) But, I look at the  a/u12t, and right there in the snout was the Tia driver, doing the complete opposite. Now here I am, thinking, who can I trust? I think I can trust 64, due to how the a/u12T is at the top of Crinacles list. I would love you guys's opinions on this. 

@crinacle any thoughts? 

also - on the Sonion Electrostatic driver IEM's you tested, would you say that they are particularly insensitive? The current plans I have, response-wise, are very similar to the modded 64 n8 you did. Would this sound particularly "off" with the EST? I am planning on damping the midrange and woofer 15-20 DB


----------



## eunice

I think it does matter a lot, this is why the soundstage of finale 2 or 4xRAF builds is so much better.


----------



## et.haan

eunice said:


> I think it does matter a lot, this is why the soundstage of finale 2 or 4xRAF builds is so much better.


right. So Harvey isnt lying, but in terms of SQ, a short, horned tweeter provides more benefit to SQ than phase coherency, as I see more praising the Tia than Harvey's builds

I have no clue how, but finding a way to do both of these would be awesome.


----------



## eunice

et.haan said:


> right. So Harvey isnt lying.


There is another issue with his claim: I don’t think you can get that straight of a phase graph for acoustical phase ever. 

If I measure acoustical phase - even of a single driver - I always get a very wiggled line, which is normal for an IEM. After all if your tube is 2cm long, a wave of a multiple of 2cm length will arrive at a different phase from a wave that is a multiple of say 1.5cm length. 

Even if your measurement setup corrects for that, you will not get a straight line for a two driver setup with one driver being in a long tube. It’s just not possible, or I fundamentally don’t understand something.

How do you even measure acoustical phase in an IEM?


----------



## et.haan

eunice said:


> There is another issue with his claim: I don’t think you can get that straight of a phase graph for acoustical phase ever.
> 
> If I measure acoustical phase - even of a single driver - I always get a very wiggled line, which is normal for an IEM. After all if your tube is 2cm long, a wave of a multiple of 2cm length will arrive at a different phase from a wave that is a multiple of say 1.5cm length.
> 
> ...


That makes sense. I was wondering a while ago, why isn’t the phase on the EX4R (single driver) flat on rtings, and that’s why. Or is that electrical phase?



 
 I can comfortable say that with a 711, phase is accurate. I emailed them, and they are very knowledgeable. Unless that is electric phase. 

I could swear there was some Chi-fi i em that had a dual FK driver tubed up, and all the way back in the concha, but now I can’t find it. Maybe it was BGVP. Maybe they are just copying JH, as one of their models does the same with dual SWFK’s.


----------



## Xymordos

et.haan said:


> right. So Harvey isnt lying, but in terms of SQ, a short, horned tweeter provides more benefit to SQ than phase coherency, as I see more praising the Tia than Harvey's builds
> 
> I have no clue how, but finding a way to do both of these would be awesome.



I think acoustic phase doesn't really matter - the JH phase coherent IEMs have a smaller soundstage than the TIA ones, which likely has some screwed up phase.


----------



## et.haan

Another idea..... If everybody here tells me to think (in IEM's) about the movement of sound through a tube as water through a hose, does that mean that a larger tube, or a horn, would effectively slow the speed of the sound traveling, due to less pressure/resistance? And a smaller diamater tube would increase it? I know UE did this on the woofer for ue18pro woofer. Is this a phase-corrective measure? 



Or is this just a low pass, as he says. 

If this theory is correct, could you control the speed of which a drivers sound meets the ear with tubing? 

Also, due to the length of the waves, I dont get how phase could make much of a difference here... a wavelength is so short


----------



## eunice (Dec 16, 2019)

et.haan said:


> Also, due to the length of the waves, I dont get how phase could make much of a difference here... a wavelength is so short


Bass waves (20hz) are approx 15m, highs (20khz) are approx 15mm in free air.

I don’t think the water analogy works, as a wave travels as a disturbance in air and the air remains (mostly) still or at least mostly returns to the original position. So no, sound does not travel faster in thinner tubes.

Sound travels faster in a denser medium eg higher air pressure or if transmitted via a solid - like your bones.

In smaller tubes you have less audible wall reflections, but also less air molecules. So for the same sound pressure at the ear the air molecules have to move faster (and further) back and forth compared to a larger tube, resulting in the friction on the tube walls to convert part of the sound energy into heat. I guess in a sense with really small tubes and loud volumes the water analogy starts to make sense again, but that is what we want to avoid.

The more I learn about this stuff the more complex it gets and the more questions I have. Welcome to the rabbit hole 

Anyhow, what I measure is a shift in resonance frequency for different tube widths and lengths.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

et.haan said:


> Another idea..... If everybody here tells me to think (in IEM's) about the movement of sound through a tube as water through a hose, does that mean that a larger tube, or a horn, would effectively slow the speed of the sound traveling, due to less pressure/resistance? And a smaller diamater tube would increase it? I know UE did this on the woofer for ue18pro woofer. Is this a phase-corrective measure?
> 
> Or is this just a low pass, as he says.
> 
> ...





et.haan said:


> Hey guys, at our scale, how much does phase coherency matter? I saw the Jerry Harvery Freqphase video (here  ) and thought "***, im going to have to completely change the design for my IEM's" (which is quite the problem for the nature of the EST) But, I look at the  a/u12t, and right there in the snout was the Tia driver, doing the complete opposite. Now here I am, thinking, who can I trust? I think I can trust 64, due to how the a/u12T is at the top of Crinacles list. I would love you guys's opinions on this.
> 
> @crinacle any thoughts?
> 
> also - on the Sonion Electrostatic driver IEM's you tested, would you say that they are particularly insensitive? The current plans I have, response-wise, are very similar to the modded 64 n8 you did. Would this sound particularly "off" with the EST? I am planning on damping the midrange and woofer 15-20 DB



JH audio Freqphase ratio is
1:1.34:2

Where 1 is woofer 
And 2 is tweeter


But having length twice as woofer is not problem. The problem is tube resonances.
And bro
Resonances are really bad. I mean, really really bad.
Phase is major issue, but resonances are way bigger.

Resonances, if tuned properly, can give huge soundstage(decombing).

But having longer tube makes driver resonance hard at major resonance frequency, while minor resonances becomes dip


The best way I do is

Reverse the ratio
1 for tweeter
2 for woofers.

Woofers, due to heavy damping, wouldn't resonate in tube as much.

And shorter length tube keeps resonances at bay




The next question's answer is

Yes..

Horn deloads the pressure, but also act as coupler which helps move larger air from weaker source



See this


The point at which speaker is connected is smaller, to pressurize air, then passed to ever expanding horn, which leads the small strength high pressure air particle to vibrate large amount of particle.


You loose pressure but gain more volume of air moved. And the volume of air moved is the volume we generally hear(in log)


----------



## et.haan

eunice said:


> Bass waves (20hz) are approx 15m, highs (20khz) are approx 15mm in free air.
> 
> I don’t think the analogy works, as a wave travels in air and the air remains (mostly) still. So no, sound does not travel faster in thinner tubes.
> 
> ...


figures... I wrote a few months back about how phase is hard to mess up at this scale, due to our dimensions. I think we can confirm that... JH may have perfect phase, but that does not mean perfect sound. Close to perfect with no resonances is better, like 64 and Tia



dhruvmeena96 said:


> JH audio Freqphase ratio is
> 1:1.34:2
> 
> Where 1 is woofer
> ...



The legend speaks, case closed

So, in solving phase, Harvey messed up with resonances. I also know that the new JH's have crazy, 4th order crossovers. Maybe they are using this to cover up resonances a little better. 

That means that the EST with 4mm of tubing, like I have, will sound pretty damn good. Nice. This also makes me want to do project knockoff Tia more, with the WBFK in the snout. How about: WBFK in snout + quad RAF zobel.  Would be hard to shell but would sound incredible. Amazing sound stage from the 4x RAF, but actual HF extension with the WBFK.  

I also want to try a larger horn with EST, going up to 2.5ID, in 3 steps (1mmID, 2mmID, 2.5mmID) Seems like we could get even more output. 

Lol, my broadcast teacher has 4 horns like that, about 5 feet tall, from a stadium. Super cool, you can hear the directivity of HF from yelling into it and moving it left and right.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

et.haan said:


> figures... I wrote a few months back about how phase is hard to mess up at this scale, due to our dimensions. I think we can confirm that... JH may have perfect phase, but that does not mean perfect sound. Close to perfect with no resonances is better, like 64 and Tia
> 
> 
> The legend speaks, case closed
> ...


The issue is...

How to match diy Tia driver phase with quad RAF..
The placement of diy Tia driver would be of utmost importance.


----------



## et.haan (Dec 17, 2019)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> The issue is...
> 
> How to match diy Tia driver phase with quad RAF..
> The placement of diy Tia driver would be of utmost importance.


honestly... I dont think it matters that much. ED is very similar to the RAB, which is similar to RAF, just with the ferrofluid. I know 64 uses an ED behind the canal, with the Tia.




The split seal in the driver, around the the top half, is in a spot where sonion does not have one....Only driver I know of is the ED....I think it is a half passed ed-29689... great mids, can do everything itself, hence it being being a sole driver... RAB will be a little farther back, but so will WBFK.

I think I get an A for reverse engineering stuff from pictures lol.... even though I was initially off with the Tia driver.

However, precise placement of WBFK will be hard... and important... a degree off axis, back, or forward 1mm... uneven sound...

Will have to be crossed high to avoid the harshness that FK's have at 3khz... no dampers here. Would love a Ferrofluid damped WBFK or SWFK

Not a starter build

Anyways, 4x 2389 arrive in 2 days, same with the replacement EST
I think I will buy a "real" generic 711 coupler, tired of remaking mine... not that accurate anyways.
I have restarted/redesigned this build 4 times now.... once it was a HODVTEC+CL+ED+TWFK... LOL... now it is 38d1x, 2389D, EST

edit - by DIY tia, I dont mean lazering off side of WBFK, I mean the snoutless 30019.. theres no way I wouldn't get dust in diaphragm with the lazer, if i could even find one.


----------



## sanekn (Dec 18, 2019)

Guys, is there a combined easy solution from sonion like GK but even better? I love my GK build and listen to it every day, but is there something more?

Or maybe even a 6-way Bellsing 10013 with zobel?


----------



## Choy Wei De

I have a very basic question. For those who wire Zobel straight to the wires. Sometime I do suspect the way that I’m doing it does it even make the electric connection.


All my wires are pre-cut to 3cm long, I don’t want to cut my wire into two. So what I did is to use the solder and try to burn the insulator away and hopefully pre-tint the wire at the same time. But it’s taking too long to do that and sometime I don’t even know did it burn away the insulator away or just soldering coating on top.


How would you guys do it to ensure there is electric connections when making Zobel.


----------



## eunice

Try the bellsing 10013 + Zobel, it is an easy build with phenomenal sound. Or think about the Finale 2. Those two are still my best builds.


----------



## eunice

Choy Wei De said:


> How would you guys do it to ensure there is electric connections when making Zobel.



maybe try one of those $10 lcr  meters. They are not very accurate, but I use them to verify I soldered everything correctly before soldering the Zobel to the driver.


----------



## sanekn

eunice said:


> Try the bellsing 10013 + Zobel, it is an easy build with phenomenal sound. Or think about the Finale 2. Those two are still my best builds.


Thanks man, will try this one!


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Dec 18, 2019)

Prototyping of Final4

Sonion 38D1XJ
Series,
zobel,
taped vent

Resistor to taste(increase to reduce bass)


Knowles DWFK
Forced series
Zobel
10ohms resistor
Resistor to taste( to decrease fullrange)

No cross, no dampers

10mm tube
2.5mm ID for DWFK
0.5mm ID for woofer



Now for extra notice for the builders

When DWFK and sonion will be fullranged, you will see the bass boost from mids and the loss of overall bass strength.

Thats DWFK coupling and can make vocals warm and bright at same(V-shape)


So resisting DWFK is important.
10ohm is starting


Drivers are also easy to gather
Sonion 38D1XJ can be bought from taobao

Those who cannot get 38AJ007 from soundlink and use two yellow.




Review of sample

10ohm DWFK + Sonion woofer.



Over clear. Final 2 but bass energy shifted to subbass. Guitar plucks are done better by non ferrofluid driver and especially DWFK. The guitars are physical in chest when combined with Sonion 38D1XJ subbass reach.


More extended. And more airy

Right now.

I am using no zobel


----------



## Xymordos

Choy Wei De said:


> I have a very basic question. For those who wire Zobel straight to the wires. Sometime I do suspect the way that I’m doing it does it even make the electric connection.
> 
> 
> All my wires are pre-cut to 3cm long, I don’t want to cut my wire into two. So what I did is to use the solder and try to burn the insulator away and hopefully pre-tint the wire at the same time. But it’s taking too long to do that and sometime I don’t even know did it burn away the insulator away or just soldering coating on top.
> ...



For my wires I can actually see smoke coming out when I use the soldering iron to heat the enamel, so I know they're burned out. Also the solder doesn't really stick to the coating anyways. If the solder sticks a connection is likely there.


----------



## et.haan

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Prototyping of Final4
> 
> Sonion 38D1XJ
> Series,
> ...


Hows the DWFK? It seems interesting for upper midrange, and pretty easy to get a hold of. I’m pretty sure 64 used to use them, but don’t any more with the new Tia they switched to ED for electrical reasons. 

Sorry for all the questions, but I am working on developing a circuit for my next pair, and would love some help, as I think you have worked with all of these drivers. 

Starting off, whats the inductance of 2389D in series? The 38D1x is 12ohm DC, 7.8mH parallel, correct?

Do you have the ability to give a usable AC resistance for the 2389D and a 38D1x after a Zobel? If so, I assume you have a 2389D parallel zobel circuit, which I would appreciate you posting. 

I’m trying to figure out the crossover points between the two without buying something to test it, like the DATS. If you have a circuit for those two I would heavily appreciate that. 

I feel like 3db/octave lowpass (or no crossover at at all) would be fine for the 38D1X because of acupass, but 6db for the 2389. Then I would pad both the 2389D and the 38D1x 20dB. Is this about what you would do?

With the EST, I would love some input for the crossover point. 10khz, 6dB on EST and 3dB on the 2389D?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

et.haan said:


> Hows the DWFK? It seems interesting for upper midrange, and pretty easy to get a hold of. I’m pretty sure 64 used to use them, but don’t any more with the new Tia they switched to ED for electrical reasons.
> 
> Sorry for all the questions, but I am working on developing a circuit for my next pair, and would love some help, as I think you have worked with all of these drivers.
> 
> ...


Eeehhh man, dont think on other drivers other manufacturers use.
LoL
They have their own sets of application and I had my own.

Yes, its used for upper midrange. It has fantastic clarity and is better integrated into a specific design compared to TWFK. It also kinda has more smoother treble profile to TWFK.

Now, inductance of 38D1XJ In parallel config is 3.898484006168mH typical (not exact)

In series it is
15.59393602467mH



2389D.....hmmmm
Series

2.847050173668mH typical

Standard 2389 is 1.4 something


----------



## Choy Wei De

Xymordos said:


> For my wires I can actually see smoke coming out when I use the soldering iron to heat the enamel, so I know they're burned out. Also the solder doesn't really stick to the coating anyways. If the solder sticks a connection is likely there.




I’ll try to use a more powerful soldering later. I mainly use a 5V USB solder, because it heats up very fast and very easy to set up but I think it might not hot enough to burn the enamel.


----------



## et.haan

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Eeehhh man, dont think on other drivers other manufacturers use.
> LoL
> They have their own sets of application and I had my own.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much man, this saves me time and money. I appreciate it. Typical Inductance value is fine for zobel, correct?

This is pre-Tia 64 a18, not sure if SWFK, TWFK or DWFK





Could be fk, dwfk or swfk, had to tell as there is no Tia for highs. 

Driver appears to read 32256, but I cant say for sure. 32256 brings back 0 matches, even on that Knowles FK-type process change notification (i posted a while back) for the changed yoke style.


----------



## et.haan

Xymordos said:


> For my wires I can actually see smoke coming out when I use the soldering iron to heat the enamel, so I know they're burned out. Also the solder doesn't really stick to the coating anyways. If the solder sticks a connection is likely there.


If you are having issues with enamel/insulation sticking to your iron, try burning it off with a lighter, instead of a soldering iron. A little bit of acid core flux will "melt" the rest of the insulation off. You will then have a ~5cm non insulated end, which you can then snip to length.


----------



## Xymordos

Choy Wei De said:


> I’ll try to use a more powerful soldering later. I mainly use a 5V USB solder, because it heats up very fast and very easy to set up but I think it might not hot enough to burn the enamel.



Yeah my soldering iron is set at 400C, any lower and the solder takes too long to melt and it annoys me.


----------



## Xymordos

et.haan said:


> If you are having issues with enamel/insulation sticking to your iron, try burning it off with a lighter, instead of a soldering iron. A little bit of acid core flux will "melt" the rest of the insulation off. You will then have a ~5cm non insulated end, which you can then snip to length.



Thanks, luckily the enamel vaporizes quickly since my iron is very hot


----------



## et.haan

Xymordos said:


> Thanks, luckily the enamel vaporizes quickly since my iron is very hot


nice... estron? With my iron (like estron but a silicon insulation) takes putting my iron up to like... 400c to burn it off, and it smells like hell

Well, its useful to whoever it applies to haha. 


Choy Wei De said:


> I’ll try to use a more powerful soldering later. I mainly use a 5V USB solder, because it heats up very fast and very easy to set up but I think it might not hot enough to burn the enamel.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

et.haan said:


> Thank you so much man, this saves me time and money. I appreciate it. Typical Inductance value is fine for zobel, correct?
> 
> This is pre-Tia 64 a18, not sure if SWFK, TWFK or DWFK
> 
> ...


Image seems broken

Its a SWFK
With more damping than SWFK32254 and 32255


----------



## Xymordos

et.haan said:


> nice... estron? With my iron (like estron but a silicon insulation) takes putting my iron up to like... 400c to burn it off, and it smells like hell
> 
> Well, its useful to whoever it applies to haha.



I do use Estron, but mainly use some litz copper wires I bought off Taobao for cheap. They're slightly thicker so its easier to work with.


----------



## Choy Wei De

et.haan said:


> If you are having issues with enamel/insulation sticking to your iron, try burning it off with a lighter, instead of a soldering iron. A little bit of acid core flux will "melt" the rest of the insulation off. You will then have a ~5cm non insulated end, which you can then snip to length.



I try to minimise the number of tools I need to make a iem. I can’t control the lighter very well anyway.




et.haan said:


> nice... estron? With my iron (like estron but a silicon insulation) takes putting my iron up to like... 400c to burn it off, and it smells like hell
> 
> Well, its useful to whoever it applies to haha.



I burned MMCX and some driver using 220V temperature control, but the control spoil. That’s why I changed to USB solder.
My USB solder tip is small enough that I can start melting iron within 10 seconds, about 200C~250/300C. . But not hot enough to burn the insulator. Gonna try using a 220v solder, then I’ll get a 300C~400C USB solder if high temperature is the way to go.


----------



## eunice

I put my soldering iron to 350, I do one run to tin all the litz wires as the burned enamel tends to stick to the tip and I have to clean the tip multiple times. With the pre tinned litz soldering is much cleaner.


----------



## piotrus-g

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Prototyping of Final4
> 
> Sonion 38D1XJ
> Series,
> ...


Not to rain on your parade but DWFK is not optimal choice in my opinion as it has relatively low HF output. TWFK would be better option for sure IMHO.
on the second note TWFK + 33AJ007i/9 is nice and easy to handle combo, though you don't see it often.


----------



## Choy Wei De

I have tested, if my temperature control is still working, at 300C the enamel do burn but need to give it some time. I believe at 350 or even 400 it will achieve the effect faster.

Time to get a new solder.


----------



## eunice

Choy Wei De said:


> I have tested, if my temperature control is still working, at 300C the enamel do burn but need to give it some time. I believe at 350 or even 400 it will achieve the effect faster.
> 
> Time to get a new solder.


KSGER T12, cheap and awesome.


----------



## sanekn

Guys, i thought instead of doing just a bellsing 6zobel in one tube, i should make a MASM 7 to improve this further. Good idea?

But! the bellsing one have zobel already, so i should make a zobel for the rab and connect both to the mmcx so they would be in parallel, right?


----------



## et.haan

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Image seems broken
> 
> Its a SWFK
> With more damping than SWFK32254 and 32255


my bad, I think I used the wrong uploader


----------



## sanekn

wow this is clean man, awesome work! where do you get the air decomression thingy (is it?) if you don't mind?


----------



## Choy Wei De

eunice said:


> KSGER T12, cheap and awesome.



I want to declutter my workstation. So I try not too many things and big things on my table. And it’s not cheap for me anyway.


----------



## et.haan

sanekn said:


> wow this is clean man, awesome work! where do you get the air decomression thingy (is it?) if you don't mind?


lol not mine, they’re old 64’s. 

However, people use a brake bleeder (for a car) to get bubbles out of Agar. Mine always clouds/yellows before it bubbles, so I have no need.


----------



## ForceMajeure

Does anyone in the end tried to do a guetto spraying lacquer using a spray gun/air brush?

I remember someone saying they will try it with pro3edure lacquer. not sure how it turned out.

I wonder if one would need to use some thinner as well and if so what would be an appropriate way to thin it?


----------



## sanekn

ForceMajeure said:


> Does anyone in the end tried to do a guetto spraying lacquer using a spray gun/air brush?
> 
> I remember someone saying they will try it with pro3edure lacquer. not sure how it turned out.
> 
> I wonder if one would need to use some thinner as well and if so what would be an appropriate way to thin it?


And how to clean the gun afterwards...


----------



## ForceMajeure (Dec 19, 2019)

sanekn said:


> And how to clean the gun afterwards...


 
yeah that also.

but seriously, lacquering with a brush is a pain in the ass. no matter how experienced one is. there is always a chance of tiny imperfections. not even talking about the fact that you absolutely need to do it in daylight to not miss small imperfections giving you a chance to retry/adjust before curing. no artificial lights worked as good as daylight thus far for me.

the older the brush is the more tendency it has to catch/create tiny bubbles as well


----------



## dhruvmeena96

piotrus-g said:


> Not to rain on your parade but DWFK is not optimal choice in my opinion as it has relatively low HF output. TWFK would be better option for sure IMHO.
> on the second note TWFK + 33AJ007i/9 is nice and easy to handle combo, though you don't see it often.


i tried TWFK, causes dipping
cannot control its tuning overall


----------



## eunice

Choy Wei De said:


> I want to declutter my workstation. So I try not too many things and big things on my table. And it’s not cheap for me anyway


I am sorry if I suggested something too expensive, but at less than $50 including handle and tips it is definitively a bargain for what it offers.


----------



## pace88

ForceMajeure said:


> yeah that also.
> 
> but seriously, lacquering with a brush is a pain in the ass. no matter how experienced one is. there is always a chance of tiny imperfections. not even talking about the fact that you absolutely need to do it in daylight to not miss small imperfections giving you a chance to retry/adjust before curing. no artificial lights worked as good as daylight thus far for me.
> 
> the older the brush is the more tendency it has to catch/create tiny bubbles as well


hard to admit, but you're right LoL


----------



## pace88

ForceMajeure said:


> yeah that also.
> 
> but seriously, lacquering with a brush is a pain in the ass. no matter how experienced one is. there is always a chance of tiny imperfections. not even talking about the fact that you absolutely need to do it in daylight to not miss small imperfections giving you a chance to retry/adjust before curing. no artificial lights worked as good as daylight thus far for me.
> 
> the older the brush is the more tendency it has to catch/create tiny bubbles as well


I have compressor airbrush (aelion pixie) looking for a pen brush that sprays in wide mode, not dot type


----------



## et.haan

ForceMajeure said:


> yeah that also.
> 
> but seriously, lacquering with a brush is a pain in the ass. no matter how experienced one is. there is always a chance of tiny imperfections. not even talking about the fact that you absolutely need to do it in daylight to not miss small imperfections giving you a chance to retry/adjust before curing. no artificial lights worked as good as daylight thus far for me.
> 
> the older the brush is the more tendency it has to catch/create tiny bubbles as well


while we are on the topic of lacquer, when in the process do you guys lacquer your shells? Doing it before fixing the drivers cause the lacquer to yellow when the drivers are glued in place. 

The reverse is better, but it’s not fun gluing drivers in place while the fitment is not final.


----------



## piotrus-g

dhruvmeena96 said:


> i tried TWFK, causes dipping
> cannot control its tuning overall


only a matter of cross over


----------



## dhruvmeena96

piotrus-g said:


> only a matter of cross over


Tried 470nF on WBFK
Caused a weird dip at after 4.4kHz
And then resumed its treble

Well, I did cut off the green small connection and wired the WBFK and FK separately

Will see, if that issues persist with normal TWFK


----------



## Tulku1967 (Dec 20, 2019)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Tried 470nF on WBFK
> Caused a weird dip at after 4.4kHz
> And then resumed its treble
> 
> ...


Reverse wiring? (with twfk)


----------



## Choy Wei De

eunice said:


> I am sorry if I suggested something too expensive, but at less than $50 including handle and tips it is definitively a bargain for what it offers.”



You can offer me a house and a car for 20K. But I simply just cannot afford them.

I get the very good price for that it offers. I can’t afford spending $50 at this point of time for a solder.


----------



## ForceMajeure

et.haan said:


> while we are on the topic of lacquer, when in the process do you guys lacquer your shells? Doing it before fixing the drivers cause the lacquer to yellow when the drivers are glued in place.
> 
> The reverse is better, but it’s not fun gluing drivers in place while the fitment is not final.



Lacquering is usually done in the last stage after you have assembled everything, everything is finished and everything was already sanded down.


----------



## ForceMajeure

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Tried 470nF on WBFK
> Caused a weird dip at after 4.4kHz
> And then resumed its treble
> 
> ...



try higher value like 1.5uf for the higher part of the twfk and maybe 6.8uf for the lower part of the twfk f.e or you could even use a very high value resistor in front of the lower part if you just want to make it more silent. there are many ways to go about tuning the twfk. but I kinda agree with you that this driver is a bit tricky to control and might not always be worth the hassle. 
also tubing plays a role here you'd have to find the correct length to minimize the dip.


----------



## et.haan (Dec 27, 2019)

Still having issues with the mill, but I tried 3D printing my design for a shell today, and I can say I am quite satisfied with the result, especially for it being a first run through.

  
What you cannot see is that despite being set to 95% infill, there is a small area around the base of the snout where it was not properly printed, which I will fix.
Comfort in the ear is good, and there is no pressure anywhere but the ear tip. There is no concha support, although I do plan incorporating this eventually, on a later design.
Here it is next to a custom shell

As for the internals, I have work to do. Other than a single driver, it will need a 3D printed driver “tube” setup, like what UE uses. I have heard many people be extraordinarily frustrated with the highly sensitive tuning of Y joints. They can be can be very hard to tune (as in a small change causes a great change in sound). What is great, is that it’s got room! I have room for the sum of BS6 + electronics.

I’ll work on the tube guide for this (BS6 in parts, may be impossible due to resonators, could also be HODVTEC + DWFK + SWFK), as well as 4x RAB/RAF. I am also interested in the weird vented RAF Dhruv was working on.  I’ll post these files (with a left version of the shell as well) in a later time. It will have both sides, tube guides, a faceplate and a “farther out of ear” design for prototyping + weird designs. For something like this, I think a guitar pick dremeled to fit is an easy and great faceplate.


----------



## Arfan

Just wanna say I'm really impressed by all the work done here, it really is astonishing you guys should be proud. Started out just printing custom shells for my um30s but I'm quite intrigued by this hobby.

I'm just posting because I need some guidance in some research I'm trying to do on CIEMs. I am attempting to write MATLAB code (have a copy through uni) that can simulate what happens to the frequency response (and other parameters of the sound) after it travels from drivers through the tubing. Hopefully doing this we can tune those messy Y connectors and my intention is to SLA print shells with the geometry built in so we can simply plug in the drivers and solder it up, later on moving on to maybe print filters right in there. 

Essentially I'm trying to simulate what dhruvmeena96 was doing using sound tubes in parallel and series to tune the sound. I've seen dhruvmeena use COMSOL but I do not have a license or any student version available to use it too ( Although I do have full package of ANSYS which may be able to produce similar results).

Just wondering if its best to use ANSYS or write my own code with MATLAB going forward. The only issue is I'm finding it difficult to find governing equations that describe this phenomenon, anywhere for me to read up on this?

Thanks


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Arfan said:


> Just wanna say I'm really impressed by all the work done here, it really is astonishing you guys should be proud. Started out just printing custom shells for my um30s but I'm quite intrigued by this hobby.
> 
> I'm just posting because I need some guidance in some research I'm trying to do on CIEMs. I am attempting to write MATLAB code (have a copy through uni) that can simulate what happens to the frequency response (and other parameters of the sound) after it travels from drivers through the tubing. Hopefully doing this we can tune those messy Y connectors and my intention is to SLA print shells with the geometry built in so we can simply plug in the drivers and solder it up, later on moving on to maybe print filters right in there.
> 
> ...


First of all, you can use anything to code and simulate

Some use CFD(computational Fluid dynamics)
Some use COMSOL( I use crack at home and licensed at office)
Well, that COMSOL is thing of past now. It helped me clear the basics etc.

Now I use pen and paper.

Now I only use it for fluid action or acoustic action simulation


But a MATLAB stuff would be great..

I was working on a software(which is in halt status because of work load) where people can select drivers, calculate dB loss by resistor or L-pad, do crossover

And calculate tube effects etc..

Like a whole program with all the drivers IEC711 response and a graph where you we can mix and match

And then a circuit designer where we can apply circuits and then predict FR

Then going to tube section and then again predicting the shift in response and phase..


Its hard man

I mean literal hard


----------



## Arfan

dhruvmeena96 said:


> First of all, you can use anything to code and simulate
> 
> ...
> Then going to tube section and then again predicting the shift in response and phase..
> ...



Yeah I can second that. I'm currently using ANSYS workbench with CFX/Fluent for a CFD project atm at university so I may look into using this. The one thing about the internal flow is I guess it can be modelled quite well in simply 2D due to the scale we're at with CIEMs. Good thing about this is it means that anyone can do it, ANSYS offer a student version of their workbench that allows enough elements for use with 2D flows. 

Might be useful for anyone getting into this as from first glance it is a bit more user friendly than COMSOL, although maybe not in implementing the results.

I'll get back to you guys about what I come up with though. And my reshells of the um30s are nearly done. Can't wait.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

1- COMSOL is more user friendly comparing to ANSYS. It provides more tools in easier way to use comparing to ANSYS. For example, COMSOL has predefined CAD geometries such as Bolt, which is unique in FEA software, you may just find such tool in SolidWorks. COMSOL is more easily for multiphysics modelling comparing to ANSYS which lots of times you need coding and other labors for multiphysics  .

2- COMSOL has some physics which you may not find even find in ANSYS, such as solute transport. These pro is very important in multiphysics modelling when you are going to solve a coupled model with very different physics.

3- COMSOL provides you the ability to define your own PDE and equation

Doing same thing is god level hard on ANSYS



You will start using COMSOL in future

ANSYS is good for learning

But not great for research and prototyping


----------



## MamatYoSekmat

Taming the Ci-30120 and bk-30037 drivers which are over mid bass, and as this happens, the sound becomes strange and unique


----------



## MamatYoSekmat




----------



## dhruvmeena96

MamatYoSekmat said:


> Taming the Ci-30120 and bk-30037 drivers which are over mid bass, and as this happens, the sound becomes strange and unique


Can you write the exact values of components


And the 30037 is not a BK.. Dont know why aliexpress and taobao selling it as BK

Its an EF

EF-30037


----------



## MamatYoSekmat

Yes you are right, I did not find knowles 30120 and 30037 on knowles website, and so far I consider it as your product considering the very cheap price


----------



## SupremusDoofus

Is the Knowles 33518 (found in fiio stuff) based on the Knowles ED-29689?


----------



## raygunraymond

Hello all, first timer here with some questions.
I'm current working on a bellsing 10013 + zobel, I understand 25ohm 22uF is the way to go.
I would like to know: how can I wire a breadboard for prototyping/testing different resistor and capacitor combinations?
I will be using my ciems with my earstudio es100 using the balanced 2.5mm.
So imagine maybe taking a 2.5mm trrs female plug then have resistors and caps in series into the positive of the BA and the negative into ground? I could plug in my es100 into the plug from there. I can't figure out how to wire the plug however.
I am also unfamiliar with that will allow me to connect the BA to the breadboard without soldering it, so a solution for that would be helpful as well.

Thank You!


----------



## eunice

Since the bellsing 10013 has a built-in crossover you only need two wires per ear to the bread board. 

The cap and resistor is in parallel to the driver, meaning you connect the positive of the driver to one end of the cap. Let’s call this connection +.  The other end of the cap goes to one end of the resistor and the other end of the resistor to the negative of the driver. The latter connection is -. This has to be done per ear. 

Then I would use a male 2.5mm plug. Check the Pinout of the connector on the Internet, it will show you which ring is + and - for each ear.  Connect + from the plug to what we called + above (+ from source, + from driver and one leg of the capacitor are connected together). - from the plug goes to what we called - above (- from source, - from driver and one leg of the resistor are connected)

there is a diagram here : https://crcit.net/c/c03b5701


----------



## dhruvmeena96

SupremusDoofus said:


> Is the Knowles 33518 (found in fiio stuff) based on the Knowles ED-29689?


thats a RAD driver
its on taobao
and its based on WBFK
just super cheap




MamatYoSekmat said:


> Yes you are right, I did not find knowles 30120 and 30037 on knowles website, and so far I consider it as your product considering the very cheap price


30120 is knowles CI-30120
30037 is Knowles EF30037

and knowles doesnt show any driver on site

and these can be bought from mouser, digikey, taobao and aliexpress
This EF is based on BK, but is generally made for pacemaker applications.. Its a high quality medical driver(tanotis india told me) and can be used in iem




raygunraymond said:


> Hello all, first timer here with some questions.
> I'm current working on a bellsing 10013 + zobel, I understand 25ohm 22uF is the way to go.
> I would like to know: how can I wire a breadboard for prototyping/testing different resistor and capacitor combinations?
> I will be using my ciems with my earstudio es100 using the balanced 2.5mm.
> ...



do nothing

just solder the wires on tab of its pcb

and add cap and resistor to it like the zobel diagram(used in speaker) to the wires

no need to hack or touch the pcb


----------



## raygunraymond

dhruvmeena96 said:


> thats a RAD driver
> its on taobao
> and its based on WBFK
> just super cheap
> ...



Oh I understand, I just want a zobel on a breadboard I can change the caps and resistors combination and easily hook up my es100 and the BA for the sake of testing/gaining experience/crap and giggles


----------



## et.haan

Arfan said:


> Just wanna say I'm really impressed by all the work done here, it really is astonishing you guys should be proud. Started out just printing custom shells for my um30s but I'm quite intrigued by this hobby.
> 
> I'm just posting because I need some guidance in some research I'm trying to do on CIEMs. I am attempting to write MATLAB code (have a copy through uni) that can simulate what happens to the frequency response (and other parameters of the sound) after it travels from drivers through the tubing. Hopefully doing this we can tune those messy Y connectors and my intention is to SLA print shells with the geometry built in so we can simply plug in the drivers and solder it up, later on moving on to maybe print filters right in there.
> 
> ...


You're definitely off on the right foot, I can tell you that.  I dont know much about Matlabs, but from what I have looked into it for, it seems quite stiff, or at least for IEM's, which is why I didnt take time to learn it. Whats nice about comsol is it is very CAD friendly, as with a 3D model and a IEC711 reading, to my knowledge, you can get quite far.  Another thing is that what we are doing doesnt quite scale perfectly. There are a lot of things here that is a big no-no in loudspeakers, and vice versa. Letting two drivers play on top of eachother is a huge sin in loudspeakers, yet the MASM7 does it perfectly. Another issue is how from Comsol, you may have a desing that works perfectly, it may not in an IEM, due to how in-precise 3D printers are. Remember that waves dont scale down, while tolerances practically scale up.

Because of this, many of the more advanced people here use a 711, and sit and try things, over and over again.

I assume you have read Sonion's "designing earbuds" or whatever paper, and the Knowles Technical bulletins? If not, I can send you them. They go in to great detail explaining tube losses, and how a tube affects resonances. For practical purposes, remember that the larger volume of air a driver is exposed to, the farther to the left the peak will move.


----------



## Tulku1967 (Dec 28, 2019)

MamatYoSekmat said:


> Taming the Ci-30120 and bk-30037 drivers which are over mid bass, and as this happens, the sound becomes strange and unique



I dont understand...
2x 4,75 uF cap in series has a value of 2,3 uF...Why don't you use a single 2.2 uF cap?


----------



## MamatYoSekmat

Tulku1967 said:


> I dont understand...
> 2x 4,75 uF cap in series has a value of 2,3 uF...Why don't you use a single 2.2 uF cap?


Because it does not have it, and must buy from outside the country can not wait.


Tulku1967 said:


> I dont understand...
> 2x 4,75 uF cap in series has a value of 2,3 uF...Why don't you use a single 2.2 uF cap?


Because I didn't have it, and had to buy it from overseas I couldn't wait, and this was my only IEM, after one was gone


----------



## MamatYoSekmat

Tulku1967 said:


> I dont understand...
> 2x 4,75 uF cap in series has a value of 2,3 uF...Why don't you use a single 2.2 uF cap?


Because it does not have it, and must buy from outside the country can not wait.


dhruvmeena96 said:


> thats a RAD driver
> its on taobao
> and its based on WBFK
> just super cheap
> ...



Thanks for the explanation


----------



## SupremusDoofus

dhruvmeena96 said:


> thats a RAD driver
> *its on taobao*
> and its based on WBFK
> just super cheap


Can you please give me a link?


----------



## MamatYoSekmat

MamatYoSekmat said:


> Taming the Ci-30120 and bk-30037 drivers which are over mid bass, and as this happens, the sound becomes strange and unique


this scheme turned out to be very tiring when I heard for a long time, and I replaced 47uf with 10uf and removed 4r7, the bass became softer and trible more balanced with mid


----------



## MamatYoSekmat

MamatYoSekmat said:


> Taming the Ci-30120 and bk-30037 drivers which are over mid bass, and as this happens, the sound becomes strange and unique


this scheme turned out to be very tiring when I heard for a long time, and I replaced 47uf with 10uf and removed 4r7, the bass became softer and trible more balanced with mid


----------



## dhruvmeena96

https://m.intl.taobao.com/detail/de...l.list.1&id=605369374436&item_id=605369374436

Knowles RAD


----------



## ForceMajeure

has anyone here ordered from those guys? 
https://www.infinite-electronic.hk/

they seem to carry drivers that no one else has in stock.


----------



## FARfromHOME

ForceMajeure said:


> has anyone here ordered from those guys?
> https://www.infinite-electronic.hk/
> 
> they seem to carry drivers that no one else has in stock.



https://www.trustpilot.com/review/infinite-electronic.com


----------



## ForceMajeure

FARfromHOME said:


> https://www.trustpilot.com/review/infinite-electronic.com


oh wow haha


I recall sending them an inquiry or maybe there were under another domain name about 8 months ago and never got an answer back. 

thank you for the heads up!


----------



## hahagu

Hello!
I am quite new to the head-fi DIY scene here, and I would like to try a combination of a few things.

I would like to make a DIY earphone with Bellsing 6 (10013), with 24.9Ohm resistor and 22uF capacitor in parallel as a zobel circuit.
I've heard that this configuration is "endgame quality" from this forum, and would like to try to make this.
Soldering skills are not bad, and have hand soldered TWFKs and GVs with resistors before, so this shouldn't be a problem for me.
And, as SoundLink suggested, red filter on highs will be inserted. 
Would this configuration be okay?

And, also, I've also designed some 3D printable shells, and I would like to hear some feedback from the design.
Here is the link:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=19UuUf5h34kwKI2KEucGGi0HNmqVHJZPz
This is only the 4th revision of my shell, so any feedback would be appreciated.
Anybody is free to use and/or modify this as necessary, as long as credits are due properly.
Thanks!


----------



## eunice

Welcome and good luck  

I use orange dampers for bass and white dampers for highs both at the end of the tube so I can experiment with different dampers after assembly. If you have the right zobel you almost need no dampers at all for the highs, but you do need them. The damper of the bass is to prevent strange cancellation and peaks in the mids.


----------



## hahagu

eunice said:


> Welcome and good luck
> 
> I use orange dampers for bass and white dampers for highs both at the end of the tube so I can experiment with different dampers after assembly. If you have the right zobel you almost need no dampers at all for the highs, but you do need them. The damper of the bass is to prevent strange cancellation and peaks in the mids.



So orange on DTEC and white on both TWFKs?
I will definitely test that configuration.
Thanks for the suggestion.


----------



## hahagu

And also, @dhruvmeena96 , the zobel configuration would work with 24.9Ohm resistor right?
SMD resistors have typically 1% to 5% margins and that fits within the range.
And zobel with resistor on negative and capacitor on positive poles parallel to the whole driver?
Thanks in advance!


----------



## eunice

hahagu said:


> And also, @dhruvmeena96 , the zobel configuration would work with 24.9Ohm resistor right?
> SMD resistors have typically 1% to 5% margins and that fits within the range.
> And zobel with resistor on negative and capacitor on positive poles parallel to the whole driver?
> Thanks in advance!


Exactly like that. resistors with 1% accuracy are good enough, 25 Ohm is what you are shooting for. This Zobel is the result of @Ivan TT experimenting, he didn’t try 24.9...

With ceramic caps however you won’t get 1% acurracy, those are sold as 5% but in reality the cheap ones are sometimes way off. It’s no problem if the cap is in fact 18uF, but you should pair your caps so left and right are about the same. I use a multimeter with capacitance test to sort the caps and match them. If you do not have a multimeter that can measure capacity, don’t worry to much.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

hahagu said:


> And also, @dhruvmeena96 , the zobel configuration would work with 24.9Ohm resistor right?
> SMD resistors have typically 1% to 5% margins and that fits within the range.
> And zobel with resistor on negative and capacitor on positive poles parallel to the whole driver?
> Thanks in advance!


its fine


----------



## hahagu

eunice said:


> Exactly like that. resistors with 1% accuracy are good enough, 25 Ohm is what you are shooting for. This Zobel is the result of @Ivan TT experimenting, he didn’t try 24.9...
> 
> With ceramic caps however you won’t get 1% acurracy, those are sold as 5% but in reality the cheap ones are sometimes way off. It’s no problem if the cap is in fact 18uF, but you should pair your caps so left and right are about the same. I use a multimeter with capacitance test to sort the caps and match them. If you do not have a multimeter that can measure capacity, don’t worry to much.



Thanks for the tip!
25 Ohm resistors weren't available from my domestic online parts store.
Capacitors on the other hand, were available.
I'll try checking and matching the capacitors to be sure though.


----------



## eunice

hahagu said:


> Thanks for the tip!
> 25 Ohm resistors weren't available from my domestic online parts store.
> Capacitors on the other hand, were available.
> I'll try checking and matching the capacitors to be sure though.


You can also use 10 and 15 in series.


----------



## hahagu

eunice said:


> You can also use 10 and 15 in series.



I do know that, but that would make the whole circuit bigger, so I think I would want to opt for the smaller option.
Thanks for the suggestion though.


----------



## eunice

hahagu said:


> I do know that, but that would make the whole circuit bigger, so I think I would want to opt for the smaller option.
> Thanks for the suggestion though.


Oh, you don’t use smd? Then it’s understandable. I use smd size 1206 or 0805 both is easy to solder by hand without any circuit board.


----------



## hahagu

eunice said:


> Oh, you don’t use smd? Then it’s understandable. I use smd size 1206 or 0805 both is easy to solder by hand without any circuit board.


I do use SMD, 1206 size.
However, since I'm planning to use a universal shell rather than a custom one, I have more limited space.


----------



## Themilkman46290

Happy new years you guys, hope you all have a great year


----------



## hahagu

Themilkman46290 said:


> Happy new years you guys, hope you all have a great year


You too, as to everybody else!


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Happy new year

New concepts
New diy iem coming 

And I think a new series of iem from me


----------



## mattmatt

Hey guys, just wondering is someone can help me out with an impedance jig? Not sure how to wire everything up. I am using a Focusrite Scarlett Solo. I'm not even sure if the input is stereo since as per REW, left and right will be used via input?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

mattmatt said:


> Hey guys, just wondering is someone can help me out with an impedance jig? Not sure how to wire everything up. I am using a Focusrite Scarlett Solo. I'm not even sure if the input is stereo since as per REW, left and right will be used via input?


http://fuchinove.ninja-mania.jp/artaimpedance.html

Here you go

Google translate it


----------



## mattmatt

dhruvmeena96 said:


> http://fuchinove.ninja-mania.jp/artaimpedance.html
> 
> Here you go
> 
> Google translate it



Thanks! My problem is that Scarlett Solo uses XLR. Not also sure if it's stereo.


----------



## eunice (Jan 1, 2020)

mattmatt said:


> Hey guys, just wondering is someone can help me out with an impedance jig? Not sure how to wire everything up. I am using a Focusrite Scarlett Solo. I'm not even sure if the input is stereo since as per REW, left and right will be used via input?


You need a stereo input, I gave up on my Edirol audio interface because all the inputs would appear as separate mono channels in macOS and REW seems to need one stereo channel. If you can get the Scarlett to present one stereo channel to REW you are definitely good, if not maybe you find a solution and can tell me.

Anyway, you have to wire the jig as per the schematics on the REW website and REW basically measures the difference between left and right.

https://www.roomeqwizard.com/help/help_en-GB/html/impedancemeasurement.html
One tip: I soldered a switch across the resistor to quickly switch between calibration and measuring.
Also: I bet the Scarlett uses combined xlr/6.5mm inputs, so you should be able to connect to an input via 6.5mm jack. Maybe it even has RCA in on the back. If not you have to look up the pinout for xlr.


----------



## arielsivan

Hi everyone.

I want to start the BS6 project.

Is there any reason why I shoden't use cheap resin from AliExpress?
like this one: https://a.aliexpress.com/lFpnW75q

This greatly reduces the cost of production.

And another thing, should I wired the zoble directly to the built-in crossover without removing the resistor and capacitor that come connected?


----------



## wardy

arielsivan said:


> Hi everyone.
> 
> I want to start the BS6 project.
> 
> ...



It's not biocompatible, your ears are worth the extra cost


----------



## eunice (Jan 1, 2020)

arielsivan said:


> Hi everyone.
> 
> I want to start the BS6 project.
> 
> ...





wardy said:


> It's not biocompatible, your ears are worth the extra cost



Exactly. One can cover the resin in biocompatible lacquer (eg dreve Lack3) but then you would need to find a resin that cures instantly and creates a nice wall when you pour the inside out. I have tried the Lisa Pavelka resin to save cost and it turns gooey and rubbery before hardening, you cannot easily get a nice outer wall with it. Also it is next to impossible to grind/sand with good result, as it tends to smear and stick to the sandpaper. 

Go with Dreve, Pro3dure or Egger, there are many other things that you need to figure out.  Finding another resin that works is a lot of work and no one was successful. Resin printing and then lacquering with a bio compatible lacquer is another story. 



arielsivan said:


> And another thing, should I wired the zoble directly to the built-in crossover without removing the resistor and capacitor that come connected?



exactly.


----------



## arielsivan

wardy said:


> It's not biocompatible, your ears are worth the extra cost





eunice said:


> Exactly. One can cover the resin in biocompatible lacquer (eg dreve Lack3) but then you would need to find a resin that cures instantly and creates a nice wall when you pour the inside out. I have tried the Lisa Pavelka resin to save cost and it turns gooey and rubbery before hardening, you cannot easily get a nice outer wall with it. Also it is next to impossible to grind/sand with good result, as it tends to smear and stick to the sandpaper.
> 
> Go with Dreve, Pro3dure or Egger, there are many other things that you need to figure out.  Finding another resin that works is a lot of work and no one was successful. Resin printing and then lacquering with a bio compatible lacquer is another story.
> 
> ...


Ok thanks a lot


----------



## arielsivan

eunice said:


> Exactly. One can cover the resin in biocompatible lacquer (eg dreve Lack3) but then you would need to find a resin that cures instantly and creates a nice wall when you pour the inside out. I have tried the Lisa Pavelka resin to save cost and it turns gooey and rubbery before hardening, you cannot easily get a nice outer wall with it. Also it is next to impossible to grind/sand with good result, as it tends to smear and stick to the sandpaper.
> 
> Go with Dreve, Pro3dure or Egger, there are many other things that you need to figure out.  Finding another resin that works is a lot of work and no one was successful. Resin printing and then lacquering with a bio compatible lacquer is another story.
> 
> ...


Will 30 grams of Dreve resin be enough to make 2 pairs?


----------



## eunice (Jan 3, 2020)

Sorry I had to edit my post, I totally botched my last answer. 

I buy 100g bottles and I can make ~12 pairs with it. You need some additional material because you fill up the impression, cure a wall and you can pour the inside back into the bottle. 

I once tried a 10g bottle and it was just not enough to make the second one of the pair, because I have large ears and could not fill up completely. 

Calculating from that: I need ~7g per pair and and excess material of about 5g for making it.

Conclusion: With 30g you can make 3 pairs.


----------



## arielsivan

eunice said:


> Sorry I had to edit my post, I totally botched my last answer.
> 
> I buy 100g bottles and I can make ~12 pairs with it. You need some additional material because you fill up the impression, cure a wall and you can pour the inside back into the bottle.
> 
> ...


Thank you!! Exactly what I wanted to hear


----------



## sanekn

guys, just received all components to make a masm 7, but need a 5µF cap and 28ohm resistance for the RAB side. 

Is any type will be good for this? I wanted to purchase some smd ones to fit in the shell nicely.

Thanks,

Alexandre


----------



## eunice

I use cheap 1206 ceramic caps and 1206 resistors from ali express. You can get the resistors in 1% accuracy, which is good enough. The caps you will get only in 5%/10%, so you will have to buy a few of them and match them by using a multimeter.


----------



## tomekk

sanekn said:


> 5µF cap and 28ohm



you can use 4,7uF any smd and 2*56ohm smd parallel (28ohm)


----------



## sanekn

Thank you good people! I could buy some of tis stuff on mouser i think.


----------



## et.haan

Been experimenting with using Fotofix as Lack3, and got great results. This is a 4:1 clear + blue fotoplast shell, with Fotofix on top. 




 

 
Its much thinner than lack, and has some other advantages. It spreads quite well, so dont expect to be able to build up a shell, like you can with lack. 
 Well, heres what you need to know. Start by sanding your shell with a dremel sanding wheel. Clean it when you think you are done with water or hydrogen peroxide. Make sure absolutely every part of the outside of the shell has been sanded. Yes, at this moment, it will look horrid. Leave them in hydrogen peroxide for 20-30mins, and them let them dry. after this, you are ready to dress them in Fotofix. I break a Q-tip in half, shove it into the canal, and then hold it with a vice grip. coat THE ENTIRE SHELL with the fotofix, and then wait 10 minutes. Turn off the lights/make it dark, if you can. If there aren’t any bubbles, you can cure it. If there are, just take the brush, and apple a little more. Wait those 10 minutes, and repeat until satisfied. 

What is so great about it, is that it doesnt seem to yellow! Anybody with Lack3 knows how frustrating the yellowing is. I can leave it in my UV “oven” as long as I want, no issue. Cures rock hard, and doesn’t  peel, like lack does, when not cured enough. Very smooth surface. Unless you are a lack magician, I reccomend this stuff. Its amazing.


----------



## Kulgrinda

et.haan said:


> Been experimenting with using Fotofix as Lack3, and got great results. This is a 4:1 clear + blue fotoplast shell, with Fotofix on top.
> 
> 
> Its much thinner than lack, and has some other advantages. It spreads quite well, so dont expect to be able to build up a shell, like you can with lack.
> ...


that is a very interesting concept. Do you think Fotofix is skin safe? 

I've noticed Lack3 sometimes diminishes over time. At the curing stage I cover the whole shell, cure it for 10 minutes, all seems perfect, but after some use I start seeing uncovered parts of IEM. Seems like varnish got removed. Only very small patches are visible, but still visible. And there are no physical evidence of scratching, hitting, etc.


----------



## mattmatt

Kulgrinda said:


> that is a very interesting concept. Do you think Fotofix is skin safe?
> 
> I've noticed Lack3 sometimes diminishes over time. At the curing stage I cover the whole shell, cure it for 10 minutes, all seems perfect, but after some use I start seeing uncovered parts of IEM. Seems like varnish got removed. Only very small patches are visible, but still visible. And there are no physical evidence of scratching, hitting, etc.


Had this problem back then. You probably just missed those spots. Missing a spot while brushing is a bigger problem than you'd think of. More often than not, you'd have space in betwern those strokes where you thought you had an overlapping coat.


----------



## Kulgrinda

mattmatt said:


> Had this problem back then. You probably just missed those spots. Missing a spot while brushing is a bigger problem than you'd think of. More often than not, you'd have space in betwern those strokes where you thought you had an overlapping coat.


I'm pretty sure I didn't miss it. While covering IEM with varnish I wear high powered head lamp so all the matt looking spaces are very clearly visible  I noticed that sometimes during the curing these spots appear, I assume there must have been a thinner layer applied and maybe varnish shrinked/moved a bit. But after full exposure time I always check for those spots and do not find them. however after some time they start appearing. Maybe I use too thin layer of varnish. 

Do you guys cover IEM with varnish once or several times? Any buffing in between if the latter? I do it only once with pretty good results (not perfect though).


----------



## mattmatt

Kulgrinda said:


> I'm pretty sure I didn't miss it. While covering IEM with varnish I wear high powered head lamp so all the matt looking spaces are very clearly visible  I noticed that sometimes during the curing these spots appear, I assume there must have been a thinner layer applied and maybe varnish shrinked/moved a bit. But after full exposure time I always check for those spots and do not find them. however after some time they start appearing. Maybe I use too thin layer of varnish.
> 
> Do you guys cover IEM with varnish once or several times? Any buffing in between if the latter? I do it only once with pretty good results (not perfect though).



High power head light makes the matte portions look like a shiny part and fools you that its its light reflecting. That's as per my experience tho. May you send a photo of the part where there's no lacquer? I only do it once. No buffing for me since the cured lacquer already has a really nice shine. I also only cure at 3-4minutes.


----------



## mattmatt

Here's a sample of my build.


----------



## discus123

Hi all,  which one is positive, the blue or the gold one.  Thanks


----------



## Xymordos

mattmatt said:


> Here's a sample of my build.



wow that looks really good!


----------



## Cevisi

mattmatt said:


> Here's a sample of my build.


Wow really nice is this dreve otoplast ? Did you 3d print it or whit a mold ?


----------



## mattmatt

discus123 said:


> Hi all,  which one is positive, the blue or the gold one.  Thanks


Blue is the positive as for most standards.


----------



## mattmatt

Xymordos said:


> wow that looks really good!


Thanks man! That means a lot coming from you! I remember asking you a lot of questions years back. I want to thank you so much. 



Cevisi said:


> Wow really nice is this dreve otoplast ? Did you 3d print it or whit a mold ?


Yep! Nope, this is with a mold.  I made a master cast by hand.


----------



## Xymordos

mattmatt said:


> Thanks man! That means a lot coming from you! I remember asking you a lot of questions years back. I want to thank you so much.
> 
> 
> Yep! Nope, this is with a mold.  I made a master cast by hand.



I'm glad it helped!  It looks like one of those Japanese Kintsugi pieces! How did you make the gold trim?


----------



## Cevisi

mattmatt said:


> Thanks man! That means a lot coming from you! I remember asking you a lot of questions years back. I want to thank you so much.
> 
> 
> Yep! Nope, this is with a mold.  I made a master cast by hand.


How did you got the gold in did you first put clear otoplast in the shell let it harden half the time then pour out the rest put the gold flakes in and then black otoplast and let it harden ?


----------



## mattmatt

I made the black shell first then score it to depth. 

Yep! They are indeed kintsugi inspired. 

Do you guys wanna see more of my works? I have a facebook page you guys can check out.  

I want to thank all the folks here who helped me out.


----------



## Cevisi

mattmatt said:


> I made the black shell first then score it to depth.
> 
> Yep! They are indeed kintsugi inspired.
> 
> ...


Yes please show us more link your pag pls


----------



## Kulgrinda

Here are several of my latest builds.


----------



## et.haan

Kulgrinda said:


> that is a very interesting concept. Do you think Fotofix is skin safe?


Probably. Its rated for ITE parts, so im willing to take the risk. It smells like fotoplast, so I am guessing they are a similar compound. I've had them in my ear for a few hours, no complaints.


----------



## Cevisi

I am about to build my first ciem

I get some tools too recable my over ears solder iron esd mat a drill 

I want to build a bellsing zobel build the drevo stuff i can get cheaper in germany then on ali express 

Now to my question on sound link they say put a red knowles filter on the ba for highs somewhere else on this thread i saw a plan with white filters what is the actual revision that the most people use

And to the uv nail lamp wich strengh i should get ?

I want to order today or tommorow what i need from ali express because of the winter sales

Thanks


----------



## Cevisi

Did i forget somthing besides the uv lamp for just building the shell ?


----------



## Themilkman46290

Cevisi said:


> Did i forget somthing besides the uv lamp for just building the shell ?


What site is that?


----------



## Cevisi

Themilkman46290 said:


> What site is that?


Mcear.de


----------



## Themilkman46290

Cevisi said:


> Mcear.de


Thanks a lot, good prices


----------



## Cevisi

Themilkman46290 said:


> Thanks a lot, good prices


Drivers tubes and filters i iot from soundlink in ali ali express


----------



## Cevisi

I wanted to build a bellsing 10013 whit zobel now i got an extra rab 32063 maybe go for masm 7


----------



## SupremusDoofus

What would be the best single driver config?


----------



## bamskie10 (Jan 12, 2020)

Is there a build for single driver ED-26805 or ED-29689?


----------



## Cevisi

There was a build somewhere in this thread u have to search for it


----------



## et.haan

Welcome to the first "I write about it so you don't have to waste your time and money" - Custom shell edition. I see a lot of misconceptions here, and I would like to work some of them out. No, I am not sponsored by any of these companies, but if you own one of them, feel free to PM. There is a lot of new guys here, so I figured I would post this. 

First off, impressions. I like to take my own. Most people audiologists dont go past the second bend, as it isnt needed for hearing aids. Despite people on here not thinking it can, CIEM's can ABSOLUTELY be comfortable past the second bend. I write about this at the very end of this. 

Please, stop giving the Earplug superstore DIY impression kit business, until they update their product. The impression material cures incredibly quick, and the oto-blocks they include are not great. You may get 1 (one) good impression from the four, even with the help of others. 

I recommend the Westone Silicon singles, and the cotton otoblocks. The cotton otoblocks sit much deeper in the ear, and arent such a bear to put in. On a side note, putting it otoblocks yourself kinda sucks. You have to jam it in with a Q-tip, and hope its deep enough. As for the Westone Silicon, its great. It is much easier to work with, has a much longer cure time, and exerts enough pressure on the ear to not represent the pores inside your ear, which can be a huge issue. 

As for curing them, without the (disappointing) purchase of a Earbud superstore kit, you will need a syringe. However, the do sell the syringes themselves. Wad up the material as quickly as possible. I like to roll it between my hands, so it becomes long, and then shoving it into the syringe. I dont want to type this all out, so heres a great video. Do ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING you see in this video, to a T, and you will have great impressions.  (however, you can go without pushing the material deeper into your ear with your fingers. I had inconsistent results doing this.)

As for bit blocks, the farther open your mouth is, the tighter the seal of your impression is. I would say that closed-mouth impressions are not even worth a shot. Relaxing your jaw is very important. (I cant find my phone for a picture, so close your eyes and imagine this for a second) Visualize the impression in your ear, and know that  when I say the "bottom of  the impression" = the low part of your ear, closest to your toes. On the side of the impression that sits facing towards your eyes, there is a sharp bend, between the canal and the bottom side of your impression  It twists and moves towards the bottom of your ear/jaw. The more stressed your jaw is, the more profound this line will be. Its not fun to grind off, either. I find that heavy removal of material at any part of the canal can easily ruing the seal. 

As for trimming your impressions, most of what you see is right. However, on the impression, the cymba concha must be rounded out, or when it is transferred to a hard resin, it will be uncomfortable. Sand until it ends parallel to the canal. Make sure it is smooth. DO NOT CUT YOUR BASE! Cutting the part of the impression that sticks out of your ear is bad! There is no reason to cut it, and with Fotoplast, the top edge will cure with bumps that will need to be sanded out. 

As for wax, wax is wax. I use the red dental wax on Amazon. A good rule of thumb, is that the hotter your wax is, the thinner the viscosity will be. Every wax has different harnesses at different temperatures, so experiment, and quit listening to other peoples recommendations. Besides, its really hard to cook impressions. (I kid you not, this was giving me bad impressions for weeks)  With this, your waxing of your impression will be more accurate with a hotter wax. I get lumps (from it curing unevenly) from dipping my impression when the wax is too cool.  Wax, no matter what, will eventually overly expand certain, random areas of the impression. This is why I think it is good to have a larger impression (from a larger bite block), than to overly wax. Waxing should be used mainly for bringing a smooth, comfortable finish. 

I hot glue my impression to the cuff mold base. 

Stop buying agar. Its garbage, or at least by itself. I know some of you have a positive experience with Agar + Gelatin, so go ahead, but I recommend Krystalloid, from Lightening enterprises. KEEP IT SEALED AIRTIGHT. It will dry out otherwise. For heating, just take your time. Only melt the amount of negative that you need, and heat it slowly, while stirring. Remove from the water while curing. Remove it from the pan, as the water you heat it in will cool faster than the Krystalloid itself, so it will lead to cold edges. Stir slowly, as the temperature falls.  Pour at 110F, and wait. If you have bubbles in your krystalloid, you heated it too fast, got it too hot, or it just reached the end of its life. Probably one of the first two.  Next, I let Hydrogen peroxide sit inside the negative for 15-20 mins. It will slightly corrode the inside of the mold, smoothing it out. The less sanding, the better. 

Fotoplast. This one took a while to get the hang of. First off, shake the damn bottle, Then, set and forget. You can pour it an hour later. Any sooner, and you will get bubbles in the resin. Everybody's cure time varies, as we all have different lamps. Figure it out. I use (x) time for the first cure. I then pour the excess resin out, and pour in Glycerin. If you dont have glycerin/glysol, your're doing it wrong. I wasted an ungodly amount of Fotoplast by ignoring this.  Fotoplast, when cured in oxygen, will have an ugly layer on it. You will not be getting it off of the inside of a shell, I have tried. Cure it, in the Krystalloid, with the Glycerin, for (2x) time. After this, take it out WITH PLIERS. Dont touch it. Then, dip it in a glycerin bath. It will float, so I stick a washer in it. Cure for 10 minutes. 

After all this, take it, preferably with pliers, to the sink. Fill the sink with soapy water, and drop it in. Swish it around a bit, and then it is safe to touch. Wash it well nonetheless.

Then, I sand it, with a round bit on my dremel. Make sure to occasionally clear the surface with hydrogen peroxide, to make sure you actually sanded it, and that you arent looking at some dust. I then coat it in lack3/fotofix. I wrote about that back a few pages. 

There isnt just one way to do this, and I would love to hear/see what you guys are doing. 

As for going past the second bend, I am leaving this at the end, as it isnt necessary, but it is nice to do. I saw 64 doing it, so I knew I could do it. Just know, waxing will make you think it is impossible. I wax, cool the wax (in water) and try (then peel and restart) an impression 20-30 times before I am satisfied. Past the second bend is delicate work. You will have to learn how to cut it yourself, as I would only be speaking for myself. I dont endorse doing this with non medical resin, but if you get a an ear infection, I called it, and you now have to paypal me $5.

 I would also not recommend doing this if you have small ears and are using multiple tubes. I read online that the asian ear has quite the bend to it, and getting tubing to contour to 2 bends like this could be quite difficult. This bend (imo) is why some companies have japan only IEM's (Unique Melody). I was blessed with big ear canals (which may or may not be permanently expanded from DIEM stuff) so I can fit 2 2mm tubes, and 1 1mm tube, all the way up past the second bend. Fit this deep is quite comfortable, and offers much more acoustic isolation. I imagine better (louder) treble from this as well.


----------



## Cevisi

et.haan said:


> Welcome to the first "I write about it so you don't have to waste your time and money" - Custom shell edition. I see a lot of misconceptions here, and I would like to work some of them out. No, I am not sponsored by any of these companies, but if you own one of them, feel free to PM. There is a lot of new guys here, so I figured I would post this.
> 
> First off, impressions. I like to take my own. Most people audiologists dont go past the second bend, as it isnt needed for hearing aids. Despite people on here not thinking it can, CIEM's can ABSOLUTELY be comfortable past the second bend. I write about this at the very end of this.
> 
> ...



Wow thanks i should get my shell making stuff this week i will try out your tips


----------



## APSune (Jan 13, 2020)

I am trying to make the MASM 7 like the one on this page. https://www.head-fi.org/threads/home-made-iems.430688/page-684#post-15270230 However I do not know how to print the pcb please help!


----------



## emil2099

Hi guys, thank you for this great thread. Noob question on tube length here. 

Do you cut the tube to exact length (eg 14mm for BS6+Zobel) and then glue flush with the shell or do cut it longer and cut at 45 degree angle so that it’s easier to get through the hole and then trim off excess? Internet seems to be unclear on this one. With either option, how do you fix the tube in the opening? Some resin inside the shell?

Also are there any pointers on how tube length affects the sound? I understand driver FR and dampers, but not so clear on tube config theory.


----------



## et.haan (Jan 14, 2020)

emil2099 said:


> Hi guys, thank you for this great thread. Noob question on tube length here.
> 
> Do you cut the tube to exact length (eg 14mm for BS6+Zobel) and then glue flush with the shell or do cut it longer and cut at 45 degree angle so that it’s easier to get through the hole and then trim off excess? Internet seems to be unclear on this one. With either option, how do you fix the tube in the opening? Some resin inside the shell?
> 
> Also are there any pointers on how tube length affects the sound? I understand driver FR and dampers, but not so clear on tube config theory.


Read: https://www.sonion.com/wp-content/uploads/Documentation_Designing_Earphones.pdf Explains tube length well.

Measure tubes. Mark them with ballpoint pen. Put them through IEM canal. Glue in place. Cut them. Put toothpicks in them, and then fill the canal with resin to be flush with the end of the IEM. Sand the end of the IEM, holding downwards for dust. Clean with Isopropyl on Q-tip with mild force.

Edit: Only fill the canal to however high you need with resin. 5mm should be plenty. More doesn’t hurt, but bondic yellows slightly. Just dont get any resin in open vents

Good luck!


----------



## Cevisi

Is it possible to mix colors whit food color or somthing like that ?


----------



## eunice

Cevisi said:


> Is it possible to mix colors whit food color or somthing like that ?


Alcohol dye colors work as per others in this thread.


----------



## eunice

emil2099 said:


> Hi guys, thank you for this great thread. Noob question on tube length here.
> 
> Do you cut the tube to exact length (eg 14mm for BS6+Zobel) and then glue flush with the shell or do cut it longer and cut at 45 degree angle so that it’s easier to get through the hole and then trim off excess? Internet seems to be unclear on this one. With either option, how do you fix the tube in the opening? Some resin inside the shell?
> 
> Also are there any pointers on how tube length affects the sound? I understand driver FR and dampers, but not so clear on tube config theory.



I cut the tubes some exact amount longer than needed, eg 5mm longer so 19mm. Then I can push the tubes through the canal so that 5mm stick out.  If you mark them with a pen sometimes the ink is dissolved by the resin and makes an ugly stain, especially on transparent or white shells. That’s why I stopped using a pen. 

Also, use some super glue to glue the tubes in place and then fill up the ear canal with resin. The resin is not really sticking to the tubes and sometimes the tubes move due to the pressure from inserting/removing the ciem. That’s why I started glueing the tubes in place with some time amount of super glue (I use loctite brush on) before filling the ear canal. 

Good luck.


----------



## sanekn (Jan 14, 2020)

Hello folks, just like APSune i'm going to try to make a MASM 7, unfortunately, my ear canals are somewhat "asian type", so very narrow. to this day i've managed to fit just one 3mm OD tube to it (stretched on the GK). when i've tried to fit 2x3mm it was a mess - both were squished.

So i'm thinking of making like one bigass 5mm tube and try to fit all stuff in it (bellsing 6 zobel + RAB, maybe with some Y solutions). Good or bad idea? What are options for guys with narrow ear canals?


----------



## Cevisi

eunice said:


> I cut the tubes some exact amount longer than needed, eg 5mm longer so 19mm. Then I can push the tubes through the canal so that 5mm stick out.  If you mark them with a pen sometimes the ink is dissolved by the resin and makes an ugly stain, especially on transparent or white shells. That’s why I stopped using a pen.
> 
> Also, use some super glue to glue the tubes in place and then fill up the ear canal with resin. The resin is not really sticking to the tubes and sometimes the tubes move due to the pressure from inserting/removing the ciem. That’s why I started glueing the tubes in place with some time amount of super glue (I use loctite brush on) before filling the ear canal.
> 
> Good luck.


You use that uhu 2 component one i read somwhere right. I didnt find that on in obi or marktkauf did you order it? I got now the uhu blitzschnell minis dont know if they will work well


----------



## eunice

Cevisi said:


> You use that uhu 2 component one i read somwhere right. I didnt find that on in obi or marktkauf did you order it? I got now the uhu blitzschnell minis dont know if they will work well


The 2 component epoxy I use is "UHU Plus Schnellfest", it comes in two syringes and I got it from Globus: https://www.uhu.de/de/produkt.3996

That glue however you should not use to glue the tubes in the ear canal and for it to work good you need a rough surface - hard to do with the tubes.

To glue the tubes in the ear canal you can use any super glue, but be aware that most super glues give off a white powdery substance when drying. That is especially true for the UHU minis. So if you build a transparent shell, better use loctite 401 or loctite brush on and only use a tiny amount of glue. Loctite also gives off some white powder but not nearly as much as the blitzschnell minis. If your shell is not transparent, the UHU minis are a good choice.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

there was some update to MASM7
@stephensynanta16 would guide you through


----------



## APSune

I saw his guide however I do not know how to print the pcb.


----------



## Cevisi

APSune said:


> I saw his guide however I do not know how to print the pcb.


The print data is linked on the post you can go to a 3d print shop locally to you or there should be internet services where you link the parts and get it send to your home


----------



## Elashri

hi everyone!
im new to this site and bit overwhelmed from the mechanics of it
so if its a common question i would love if someone could point me to where can i find something similar.

i want to build my first DIY CIEM and dont know exactly wich drivers to go with
ive got recommendations for the GK31732, Bellsing10013 and the GV32830
im looking for accurate sound with good and full bass and clear but not harsh treble
i have the knowlage and capability to add to the existing cross if necessary.
i would love to hear your opinion on which driver i should choose and what damper and electric mods to fit it with.

BTW do someone have a link to aliexpress for a suitable safe to use resin? (i saw here that the cheap staff isnt good to be in contact with skin).

thank you all in advanced!
looking forwards to start my build.


----------



## eunice

GK I did not like at all. If have built approx 10 Knowles GV and *ALL* of them lost their bass driver after a few weeks of use. It might be my fault, but I cannot recommend it. As you probably know by know, I am a huge fan of Bellsing 10013 + Zobel and Finale 2.

Resin via Ali is probably expensive, it's not easy to be shipped. But go for Dreve Fotoplast or Pro3Dure if you can, Egger is also ok.


----------



## icarusforde

Morning all. 

Been experimenting with building shells over the last few months or so, with a bit of a gap in the middle. Originally planned on just throwing a GK31733 in a shell and calling it a good time, but with the amount of chatter around some zobel circuits in here, I'm a little intrigued.

I can't find anything straight off the bat in terms of a zobel for 31733 - forgive me if there's one around and I've missed it, but I've had a decent read of the last couple hundred pages and I can't see anything straight off. Can anyone point me in roughly the right direction?

Next step's the Bellsing 10013 I think - they look absolutely fantastic and I'm intrigued to see how they sound. 

Thanks!


----------



## Elashri (Jan 14, 2020)

eunice said:


> GK I did not like at all. If have built approx 10 Knowles GV and *ALL* of them lost their bass driver after a few weeks of use. It might be my fault, but I cannot recommend it. As you probably know by know, I am a huge fan of Bellsing 10013 + Zobel and Finale 2.
> 
> Resin via Ali is probably expensive, it's not easy to be shipped. But go for Dreve Fotoplast or Pro3Dure if you can, Egger is also ok.


can you expand on this setup?
how to build it (zobel for BS6)?
what dampeners?
from what i understand zobel is an added circuit on the original cross, am i right?
do you fill the shells all the way or just glue a faceplate?
do you have photos for a setup like this?


----------



## eunice (Jan 14, 2020)

Masm 3 pro https://crcit.net/c/4c8ad023

BS6 + Zobel https://crcit.net/c/49f54ed9

Finale 2 Reference CIEM https://crcit.net/c/7d75c8a5

Finale 3 CIEM https://crcit.net/c/bd30416c

Comparison MASM with resonator vs BS6 (and others): https://www.head-fi.org/threads/home-made-iems.430688/page-603#post-14961816

Comparison Finale 2 Reference, Finale 3, BS6: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/home-made-iems.430688/page-627#post-15023250

Only fill up the ear canal, pictures are hundreds in this thread.


----------



## Elashri

in the BS6+Z what is the use of the 1mm ID on the DTEC?
and how you stretch one tube over both TWFK?


----------



## et.haan

My stuff finally arrived. Getting my measurement all set up today. 



If any of you have any _weird _tuning things to try, ask and you shall receive. However, I will not measure your GV with a brown vs green damper. For that, read Knowles TB14, and the Sonion Designing Earphones guide.


----------



## eunice

Elashri said:


> in the BS6+Z what is the use of the 1mm ID on the DTEC?
> and how you stretch one tube over both TWFK?


I think it reduces reflections, at least that’s what I tell myself. I built with and without the 1mmID and although the difference was minuscule I thought the one with the 1mmID sounded a bit better, a little less distortion in the mids. Of course that could be due to other differences in the build but since then I build them with it.


----------



## alanwcruz

First test, 3D printing with Class II bio compatible skin safe resin, looks like I have to set a longer exposure time, the face plate was incomplete but the shell looks really nice!


----------



## sanekn (Jan 15, 2020)

Guys, i've found this scheme of MASM7 is this a good one? I have a really tiny ears, will try to fit 2 3mm OD but seems difficult... Here are my actual GK set i want to replace (acoustic tube detached from ba after a fall)

Do you think it's doable to make place for 2 tubes here?

I listen to alot of metal, jazz, classical, how's everyone experience with it?


----------



## Tulku1967

alanwcruz said:


> First test, 3D printing with Class II bio compatible skin safe resin, looks like I have to set a longer exposure time, the face plate was incomplete but the shell looks really nice!


Could you write me how to call the resin manufacturer?
Thanks!


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jan 15, 2020)

sanekn said:


> Guys, i've found this scheme of MASM7 is this a good one? I have a really tiny ears, will try to fit 2 3mm OD but seems difficult... Here are my actual GK set i want to replace (acoustic tube detached from ba after a fall)
> 
> Do you think it's doable to make place for 2 tubes here?
> 
> I listen to alot of metal, jazz, classical, how's everyone experience with it?


I was going to suggest

Do BS6
TWFK grey damper@15mm (20mm lenght(2mm ID))
DTEC orange damper@10mm (20mm lenght(1mm ID))

Damper comes in small size so you can have small tube

And make RAB 30mm tube/2mm ID
Add resonator as it is
Dont change it
No damper


And use RAB32033


This is the last MASM from me


Thanks to
@eunice for BS6Z
@stephensynanta16 for MASM7Z

And the last MASM in lineup


Review

Goes very low
Serious low end
Midrange is clean and weirdly nothing bleeds from DTEC. Layering is amazing

Soundstage slightly intimate(not small, as it can scale)
Imaging is stronger than MASM3 pro
And way stronger and aggressive sound(not sharp or sibilant, fundamental tone is strong and resolution is aggressive)

Who all find it aggressive can shift to white damper on TWFKs


----------



## sanekn (Jan 15, 2020)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> I was going to suggest
> 
> Do BS6
> TWFK grey damper@15mm (20mm lenght(2mm ID))
> ...


Thank you very much man! I have a pair of 32063 RABs only, and don't think 3 tubes can be fit in my ears unfortunately. I would like it tho. Will try to fiddle with some test shells to be sure.

May I ask what is the improvement of your last version frome the one on the picture?

For sound signature I love my pair of akg k240 for example, somewhat warm-neutral, love details, not a bass-head. Is this MASM7 is the right way to go?


----------



## Kulgrinda

sanekn said:


> Guys, i've found this scheme of MASM7 is this a good one? I have a really tiny ears, will try to fit 2 3mm OD but seems difficult... Here are my actual GK set i want to replace (acoustic tube detached from ba after a fall)
> 
> Do you think it's doable to make place for 2 tubes here?
> 
> I listen to alot of metal, jazz, classical, how's everyone experience with it?



I listen metal and to be frank DTEC does not make me happy. I need CI somewhere in the setup to have more solid sound. I don't enjoy BS6+zobel at all, it is narrow sounding, quite harsh with thin bass.

For me quite good sounding setup is GK+RAB (zobel), but even better one is CI (15ohm rez) + ED (tiny values cap, don't remember by heart). The latter one is easy the most enjoyable with heavy music and my favorite as of today. Fast, spacious, not harsh, articulate. My kind of sound


----------



## eunice

CI has a large amount of lower mids, but is slow and does not have a good bass below 50hz. But bass amount is most likely an issue with the fit, the BS6+Z has more than enough bass, it has much more bass than the GK.


----------



## sanekn

Kulgrinda said:


> I listen metal and to be frank DTEC does not make me happy. I need CI somewhere in the setup to have more solid sound. I don't enjoy BS6+zobel at all, it is narrow sounding, quite harsh with thin bass.
> 
> For me quite good sounding setup is GK+RAB (zobel), but even better one is CI (15ohm rez) + ED (tiny values cap, don't remember by heart). The latter one is easy the most enjoyable with heavy music and my favorite as of today. Fast, spacious, not harsh, articulate. My kind of sound


Damn man, you make me scared haha even tho i've bought the BS6 already. But I agree I love the GK without dampers in one tube. And my 5 folks from metal band (to whom i made ciems) loved the GK hugely... Will try and see what happens. The worst case is i will make some ciems to buddies for birthdays whatnot


eunice said:


> CI has a large amount of lower mids, but is slow and does not have a good bass below 50hz. But bass amount is most likely an issue with the fit, the BS6+Z has more than enough bass, it has much more bass than the GK.


Thats what scares me actually, cause i love the quantity of bass in the GK...


----------



## Kulgrinda

eunice said:


> CI has a large amount of lower mids, but is slow and does not have a good bass below 50hz. But bass amount is most likely an issue with the fit, the BS6+Z has more than enough bass, it has much more bass than the GK.


Well I don't agree with this. For me CI is fast enough when paired with resistor in series. BS6 does not go that low and there is no impact what so ever. It might be good for mids, but soundstage is quite narrow, so. I've tried different setups for this driver and all of them were not satisfying. I do not listen to music very loud and don't listen to music that has sub bass, so this is not important to me. 

Since I have several CI laying around I'll be trying to pair it with GQ which has terribly boosted mid bass. Maybe something good comes out of it. I was even thinking pairing BS6 with highly dampened CI, but this is in the future. BS6 is the only driver I had ruined while building yet and it does not even sound to my liking.

Just my opinion, I know there is a lot of love for BS6 and since everybody listen at different level/prefer different sound signature/listen to different music and hear differently - take my opinion with precaution  You might enjoy it.


----------



## Kulgrinda

sanekn said:


> Damn man, you make me scared haha even tho i've bought the BS6 already. But I agree I love the GK without dampers in one tube. And my 5 folks from metal band (to whom i made ciems) loved the GK hugely... Will try and see what happens. The worst case is i will make some ciems to buddies for birthdays whatnot
> 
> Thats what scares me actually, cause i love the quantity of bass in the GK...


Well you'll see  You might enjoy it after all.


----------



## eunice (Jan 15, 2020)

Kulgrinda said:


> Well I don't agree with this. For me CI is fast enough when paired with resistor in series. BS6 does not go that low and there is no impact what so ever. It might be good for mids, but soundstage is quite narrow, so. I've tried different setups for this driver and all of them were not satisfying. I do not listen to music very loud and don't listen to music that has sub bass, so this is not important to me.



The problem with the BS6 is mainly that it has a bad impedance curve. You have to rectify that with the Zobel, otherwise it does sound bad and distorted even on a good amp.

Still, even with the zobel the bass is depending on the source.

I don't like the way the CI is blooming into the mid-range, muddying the bass and the mids together. As you surely know the amount of bass also has a lot to do with the fit you are achieving, but with your experience you surely are able to achieve similar fit.

If you mean bass as in "bass guitar" then the CI has more bass as it has an emphasis on everything between 100 and 500 hz. If you mean bass as in "kickdrum impact", the BS6+Z has more bass, but also it is more neutral in the signature.



Kulgrinda said:


> Just my opinion, I know there is a lot of love for BS6 and since everybody listen at different level/prefer different sound signature/listen to different music and hear differently - take my opinion with precaution  You might enjoy it.



Different opinions are always welcome. I love your input to this thread. 

Edit: In my experience if you are into metal or rock then you most probably prefer a V shaped or U shaped signature. You should try the scary then, with two CI.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jan 15, 2020)

pfft.....hahahhaha

guys, it depends on tuning on whether CI goes low or not
i have some build, where CI blows away Sonion 38D1XJ, and some build where CI sounds bad

CI is a linear field woofer

try making an iem with flat sound on CI and it will go low(seems to be opposite of many people think), but CI moves air above its weight, which also makes it slow but since its a fullrange, low pass it higher or dont low pass it and try making a pretty flat response, so that you can hide its midbass due to flatness and then listen to its sheer extension
it will go to 10Hz in breeze

but use it as a complete woofer

and then the mid bass comes in between and then it rolls of in sub bass, making it midbass dominant

its a fullrange

and not like Sonion 38D1XJ true subwoofer(i know, you guys not talking about this driver)


its all about use and design


----------



## Xymordos

alanwcruz said:


> First test, 3D printing with Class II bio compatible skin safe resin, looks like I have to set a longer exposure time, the face plate was incomplete but the shell looks really nice!



Oh that looks really nice indeed :O


----------



## Xymordos

eunice said:


> The problem with the BS6 is mainly that it has a bad impedance curve. You have to rectify that with the Zobel, otherwise it does sound bad and distorted even on a good amp.
> 
> Still, even with the zobel the bass is depending on the source.
> 
> ...



Actually I find CI to sound pretty clear, if you add a 20ohm resistor to CI it flattens the driver and makes it quite flat, and sounds much faster. But despite the flat response it really doesn't sound flat. It gives much more bass than smaller drivers with the same response.


----------



## Elashri

eunice said:


> I think it reduces reflections, at least that’s what I tell myself. I built with and without the 1mmID and although the difference was minuscule I thought the one with the 1mmID sounded a bit better, a little less distortion in the mids. Of course that could be due to other differences in the build but since then I build them with it.


and it just a small piece of the 1 mm id just in front of the driver?


----------



## Kulgrinda

eunice said:


> The problem with the BS6 is mainly that it has a bad impedance curve. You have to rectify that with the Zobel, otherwise it does sound bad and distorted even on a good amp.
> 
> Still, even with the zobel the bass is depending on the source.
> 
> ...



My BS6 is with zobel, used expensive resistor and ceramic capacitor, tubing is also as per advise in this thread, I think I made all as if should have been made, not my first set of IEMs. 

Try calming CI with come resistors. 15 ohm was enough to pair with ED, most of the midrange comes from CI also. It is actually a pretty good driver with enough mass to produce full sound and big headroom. I also noticed that dampers above brown really messes openness of the sound and I try to avoid using those unless specifically requested by design.

My preferred sound would probably be L shaped - I do not like active high frequencies. Recessed mids are also not my favorite. I'd say HD650, meze 99/empyrean would have my favorite sound signature.

I did try scary build (2xCI + TWFK if I'm not mistaken), but the whole setup is so bulky I did not manage to fit it into the shell  Only tried them with test shell where back plate is fixed with whiteboard sticky material and is sitting 10 mm outside where the original plate should be. Did not listen to it for a long time, but my recollection of it is not too great. Now I have 4 CIs to play with


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Kulgrinda said:


> My BS6 is with zobel, used expensive resistor and ceramic capacitor, tubing is also as per advise in this thread, I think I made all as if should have been made, not my first set of IEMs.
> 
> Try calming CI with come resistors. 15 ohm was enough to pair with ED, most of the midrange comes from CI also. It is actually a pretty good driver with enough mass to produce full sound and big headroom. I also noticed that dampers above brown really messes openness of the sound and I try to avoid using those unless specifically requested by design.
> 
> ...


hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm mmmmm mmmmm mmmmm mmmmmm 
why do you even want to use CI
when you can have high excursion RAB32033 for L-shape

well by the way
CI inductance is 11mH for DCR zobel

but CI peaks at 1.8kHz where it just doesnt blend with BS6 response target
and if you damp it, it increase decay slight
which will cause the driver to bleed

as noticed by @eunice in final 3 old prototype and also by me

CI in this setup is also very big and hard to fit

and CI is air mover and not excursion driver

so, the bass hit and impact would be lacking(for the grand bass presentation)


----------



## alanwcruz

Tulku1967 said:


> Could you write me how to call the resin manufacturer?
> Thanks!



I tried with a resin from 3dresyns but didn't like the results, this latest test was with Dentona 3D Optiprint Guide 385. It's used to make dental surgical guides, figured I can't get safer than that! Bought it off amazon.


----------



## Cevisi

What tool/app is the best to make graphs


----------



## eunice

Cevisi said:


> What tool/app is the best to make graphs


I use RoomEqWizard, but I hear ARTA is also very good.


----------



## eunice

alanwcruz said:


> I tried with a resin from 3dresyns but didn't like the results, this latest test was with Dentona 3D Optiprint Guide 385. It's used to make dental surgical guides, figured I can't get safer than that! Bought it off amazon.


Is it this one? http://shop.dentona.de/epages/Dentona.sf/de_DE/?ObjectPath=/Shops/Dentona/Products/48110


----------



## icarusforde

eunice said:


> BS6 + Zobel https://crcit.net/c/49f54ed9



Hey Eunice,

Looking at the BS6 + Zobel build here - which 25ohm resistor did you end up using?

Struggling to find a 25 ohm unit on element14 or similar in a SMD package - I've got some 1206 25.5's showing that I'll probably end up getting though.


----------



## eunice

icarusforde said:


> Hey Eunice,
> 
> Looking at the BS6 + Zobel build here - which 25ohm resistor did you end up using?
> 
> Struggling to find a 25 ohm unit on element14 or similar in a SMD package - I've got some 1206 25.5's showing that I'll probably end up getting though.



I use two 1206 resistors in series, like 10 and 15 Ohm.


----------



## icarusforde

eunice said:


> I use two 1206 resistors in series, like 10 and 15 Ohm.



Why that didn't occur to me... *sigh*

I'm off to have more coffee haha. 

Don't have a photo of how you're doing the circuits, do you? Are you just soldering the 1206's straight in line, or do you have a PCB you're using?


----------



## eunice

I solder straight in line and then cover in some resin for a bit of extra rigidity


----------



## icarusforde

Tidy! Thanks very much.


----------



## ForceMajeure

alanwcruz said:


> I tried with a resin from 3dresyns but didn't like the results, this latest test was with Dentona 3D Optiprint Guide 385. It's used to make dental surgical guides, figured I can't get safer than that! Bought it off amazon.



You could use the regular stuff (egger lp/h, dreve) and try to find the right exposure time.


----------



## alanwcruz

eunice said:


> Is it this one? http://shop.dentona.de/epages/Dentona.sf/de_DE/?ObjectPath=/Shops/Dentona/Products/48110



Nope, it's this one https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07W5R22MZ/

The one you linked is for making dental models, more for show and not for direct prolonged contact with human body.


----------



## alanwcruz

ForceMajeure said:


> You could use the regular stuff (egger lp/h, dreve) and try to find the right exposure time.



I tried very high exposure times for Fotoplast but could never get anything printed... Result was always a big blob that stuck to the printers FEP layer.


----------



## eunice

alanwcruz said:


> I tried very high exposure times for Fotoplast but could never get anything printed... Result was always a big blob that stuck to the printers FEP layer.


You probably saved me a boatload of money there, I was about to try fotoplast. Thank you very much.


----------



## ForceMajeure

alanwcruz said:


> I tried very high exposure times for Fotoplast but could never get anything printed... Result was always a big blob that stuck to the printers FEP layer.



Maybe one with lower viscosityshould be better. (Fotoplast LV is Low Viscosity btw).
also temperatures play a role since when colder it's more viscous.

what about pro3dure stuff? they should have a resin for dlp applications iirc. maybe you can acquire it


----------



## et.haan

Cevisi said:


> What tool/app is the best to make graphs


Lol man, you'll get terrible readings with this, to be honest. You are trying to replicate a IEC711. This what you need to know: a 1/2 in tube around the Dayton mic. You can expand your mics diameter with tape, as the tube is too large for the mic. Then, make your tube 15.75mm long. This is the essence of a 711. Make it taper down to say, 1/3, maybe 1/4 of an inch, and then add a second tube for inserting your drivers. The taper must be at 90 degrees, and the whole thing must be sealed.


----------



## et.haan

eunice said:


> I solder straight in line and then cover in some resin for a bit of extra rigidity


Lol bro, easy on the glue 

Nice idea on the crossovers, with them all soldered together, and sealed together with shrinkwrap. Its what JH does.


----------



## et.haan (Jan 16, 2020)

I see a lot of new folks here, all at once. Welcome! However, you guys all came in so fast, and at the exact same time, I have got to ask where you guys came from?

P.S. Dont forget to hit reply when you are responding to someone, so we know who you are talking to. You can multiquote, as well. Or just be lazy, like me. 

When I do multiquote, I reply to the first person, copy it (including the embedded text), and then hit reply to the next guy. I then paste in what I copied earlier. Theres another way to do it, but it doesnt work that well (for me)


----------



## eunice (Jan 16, 2020)

et.haan said:


> Lol bro, easy on the glue
> .



The tubes are glued to the driver using loctite 401. Then I cover that in dreve silicone glue.

I had so many CIEMs fail due to losing the seal between tube and driver and that’s what ended up being reliable, so I stick to it.

I think there are two challenges:

1) you need a glue joint between driver and tube that is strong enough to withstand the air pressure from inserting and removing the ciem from the ear and of course the sound pressure itself.

2) the glue must withstand the solvents in the resin from filling up the ear canal until it is fully cured.

It took me a while and lots of frustration until I found a combination that works.

The silicone glue also can potentially soften the impact on the driver when the ciems Fall on the ground.

Most probably there is a better and easier solution but I got tired of trying.

I don’t use shrink wrap though, it’s just a drop of resin and a UV torch.


----------



## icarusforde

et.haan said:


> I see a lot of new folks here, all at once. Welcome! However, you guys all came in so fast, and at the exact same time, I have got to ask where you guys came from?
> 
> P.S. Dont forget to hit reply when you are responding to someone, so we know who you are talking to. You can multiquote, as well. Or just be lazy, like me.
> 
> When I do multiquote, I reply to the first person, copy it (including the embedded text), and then hit reply to the next guy. I then paste in what I copied earlier. Theres another way to do it, but it doesnt work that well (for me)



I've been floating around the thread for the last year or so, but just got around to posting. *shrug*

Been fiddling with the process of building shells over the last year or so, finally getting somewhere where the results are usable, but I haven't been applying a lot of time to it. Just dropped another absurd amount of money on a new set of UE Live's as well, so figured I should really work out how to make the damn things so I don't buy any more... Plus, there's a good collection of band members and vocalists that I know who've asked if I'm ever actually going to build them some customs, so might be a nice new year resolution. 

Unfortunately, getting hold of some stuff down in NZ is a pain (looking at you, Lack 3!) but thankfully, I've got a friend who's mother's coming over from China soon, so thank you Taobao... 

Hopefully will be able to add to the content here once it's all coming together on my end!


----------



## stephensynanta16

sanekn said:


> Thank you very much man! I have a pair of 32063 RABs only, and don't think 3 tubes can be fit in my ears unfortunately. I would like it tho. Will try to fiddle with some test shells to be sure.
> 
> May I ask what is the improvement of your last version frome the one on the picture?
> 
> For sound signature I love my pair of akg k240 for example, somewhat warm-neutral, love details, not a bass-head. Is this MASM7 is the right way to go?



The improvement: with 3 bore, u can tune MASM7 freely to your taste. And the most important was, since we had less damping on the TWFK, it fixes the last-gen MASM7 weakness: lack of treble

MASM7 tri-bore was quite flexible to tune, if u prefer less bass, u can try:
DTEC: white @ 10mm, brown @20mm

it'll lessen the bass, and because now dtec also singing on the mid, u'll get extra resolution on the mid because now it has 5 driver singing on the mid (2xFK, 2xDTEC, RAB). But it'll shift the vocal to the warm-ish.

My recomendation: buy extra damper with another color, you can shift the whole tonality by playing with damper on the DTEC & TWFK.
Less damping on DTEC will shift tonality to warm, less bass, but will get more resolution on mid.
More damping on DTEC do the opposite,

U can go undamped on the TWFK if u really love those treble 

My current masm7 configuration:
RAB 32033(i stick a cloth on the vent to make it sounds like a 32257)
10ohm before BZ6 zobel
TWFK: white @ 10mm
DTEC: orange @ 20mm

Try white + green/red on the DTEC, mine which use orange, lose a little bit of those gorgeous mid resolution.

My head was still not able to cope with the bass, having a bass which doesnt affect/bleed into mid in any way, feels weird (too HIFI, LOL)


----------



## stephensynanta16

Kulgrinda said:


> I listen metal and to be frank DTEC does not make me happy. I need CI somewhere in the setup to have more solid sound. I don't enjoy BS6+zobel at all, it is narrow sounding, quite harsh with thin bass.
> 
> For me quite good sounding setup is GK+RAB (zobel), but even better one is CI (15ohm rez) + ED (tiny values cap, don't remember by heart). The latter one is easy the most enjoyable with heavy music and my favorite as of today. Fast, spacious, not harsh, articulate. My kind of sound


We had a quite similar taste, dude. MASM7 is close, but those DTEC still lacking a little bit to satisfy me.

will try to put an 8th driver into MASM7, as a woofer. So far, the driver candidate was an ED.


----------



## stephensynanta16

https://drive.google.com/open?id=190rFc3jcUGcKHEpc7sxnaZiVnixkpdHK

for those who wants to try printing MASM7 tri-bore


----------



## et.haan

eunice said:


> The tubes are glued to the driver using loctite 401. Then I cover that in dreve silicone glue.
> 
> I had so many CIEMs fail due to losing the seal between tube and driver and that’s what ended up being reliable, so I stick to it.
> 
> ...


These are all good points, but I have fantastic results with bondic in two places. First, put it on the the snout of the driver. Putting the tube on will squeeze it to touch the base of the snout. I then cure this. A second ring, touching both the BA and the tube is then added. Maybe you may want to try this. It sits fine with fotoplast.


----------



## et.haan

icarusforde said:


> I've been floating around the thread for the last year or so, but just got around to posting. *shrug*
> 
> Been fiddling with the process of building shells over the last year or so, finally getting somewhere where the results are usable, but I haven't been applying a lot of time to it. Just dropped another absurd amount of money on a new set of UE Live's as well, so figured I should really work out how to make the damn things so I don't buy any more... Plus, there's a good collection of band members and vocalists that I know who've asked if I'm ever actually going to build them some customs, so might be a nice new year resolution.
> 
> ...


Oh yeah, I see your joined date. Glad to see you getting results!

Also, Lack3 is the totally overrated. Theres about 15 1/2 people on this thread (of a few hundred) who can consistently get results that are close to its capabilities. I reccomend Fotofix. https://www.head-fi.org/threads/home-made-iems.430688/page-717#post-15402127


----------



## icarusforde

et.haan said:


> Oh yeah, I see your joined date. Glad to see you getting results!
> 
> Also, Lack3 is the totally overrated. Theres about 15 1/2 people on this thread (of a few hundred) who can consistently get results that are close to its capabilities. I reccomend Fotofix. https://www.head-fi.org/threads/home-made-iems.430688/page-717#post-15402127


Thanks!

Yeah, I've been reading through your posts on Fotofix. Unfortunately, since it's still a high vapor thing, it's a _person_ to ship internationally, and most places will outright refuse. I could've got some from China I suppose with this shipment of stuff coming over from Taobao - maybe I'll see if I can get something else slipped in!


----------



## Cevisi

Whats he difference between masm 7 whit RAB 32033 and RAB 32063 inordered the RAB 32063 because that was recomended at that time now everybody tends to RAB 32033


----------



## et.haan

icarusforde said:


> Thanks!
> 
> Yeah, I've been reading through your posts on Fotofix. Unfortunately, since it's still a high vapor thing, it's a _person_ to ship internationally, and most places will outright refuse. I could've got some from China I suppose with this shipment of stuff coming over from Taobao - maybe I'll see if I can get something else slipped in!


Oh yeah, I forgot about shipping resins overseas. Some lucky guy on Taobao got away with my money. Translation was not good enough to pursue it. Kinda hurts to think about lol. Do you guys have a superbuy for NZ? 

Theres a lot of you NZ folks here. Is it as beautiful as they say it is?


----------



## et.haan (Jan 16, 2020)

Its late now, but tomorrow I will be working on making the TWFK sound good, with SIMPLE tuning.  Maybe its impossible, but I will try

Some of you may know, I have a pet peeve with the TWFK. It is the FK + WBFK, but its much better to run them separate. Green filter on FK, grey (or no damper) on WBFK. The best way to go is the DWFK + SWFK, with the same dampers.

Also, every reviewer on the planet calls any dual FK BA a TWFK. This includes DWFK, DFK, SWFK, etc.

But people will keep buying the GV/GK/TWFK, try them, and get mediocre results, so I want to fix that.

Edit: I don’t  think the TWFK is bad. Its just not good in the way that it requires a compromise, of a smooth treble and poor extendion, or vice versa.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Cevisi said:


> Whats he difference between masm 7 whit RAB 32033 and RAB 32063 inordered the RAB 32063 because that was recomended at that time now everybody tends to RAB 32033


32033 is bassy and corrects the CI deficiency effect on MASM 7

It gives way harder low end without spoiling mids

Take away the bass and its 32063


----------



## stephensynanta16 (Jan 16, 2020)

Cevisi said:


> Whats he difference between masm 7 whit RAB 32033 and RAB 32063 inordered the RAB 32063 because that was recomended at that time now everybody tends to RAB 32033


its differ quite a bit. 32033 which is vented, will add quite some to the bass, has slower bass decay, but sometime also creep into the lower mid (i dont really like it). And due to it's bassy nature, it doesnt help much on treble area. it will have warmer vocal.
32063 is the opposite of 32033.

the build is depend on your taste:
32033 for extra bass & dynamic-like slower bass decay (will pull it toward warm)
32257 is the middleground (i prefer this) (less warm)
32036 wont add the bass (might be bright? i havent tried)

why everyone tends to use 32033? Could it be because of me spam posting my build which use 32033, LOL.
I don't recomend 32033 either. Go buy 32257 instead, its flexible, if u need more bass, just remove the vent cloth. 32033 is 32257 without vent cloth.


----------



## sanekn

stephensynanta16 said:


> The improvement: with 3 bore, u can tune MASM7 freely to your taste. And the most important was, since we had less damping on the TWFK, it fixes the last-gen MASM7 weakness: lack of treble
> 
> MASM7 tri-bore was quite flexible to tune, if u prefer less bass, u can try:
> DTEC: white @ 10mm, brown @20mm
> ...


Thank you very much man for your gold input! Appreciate this much! I gotta say, that I have 0 problem with GKs TWFK undamped, love the trebly side (or maybe i've just lost treble due to too much unprotected metal concerts haha). Can I ask you what is the problem with 32066 RAB? Can I use this one or should i really buy some 32033s? I will definetely buy some more dampers tho.

Unfortunately for me, I don't think I can fit 3 bores in my tiny asian ears xD Will try to, but when I've tried long time ago to fit 2x3mm tubes it ain't finished well - both was squished in oval shape. But maybe I can make some sort of horn at the end and recess all the tubes...


----------



## icarusforde

et.haan said:


> Oh yeah, I forgot about shipping resins overseas. Some lucky guy on Taobao got away with my money. Translation was not good enough to pursue it. Kinda hurts to think about lol. Do you guys have a superbuy for NZ?
> 
> Theres a lot of you NZ folks here. Is it as beautiful as they say it is?


She's not easy, yeah. I think there is a superbuy kinda option - I'll give it a bash sometime, but even shipping resins is fine, it's the lacquers and glues that're the real problems.  

There's a few round yeah! And I mean - I'm biased, right? But yeah. It's pretty bloody stunning. This is the harbour in Wellington, ten minute walk from work, fifteen minutes from home, and the city's clustered around it. I absolutely love this place.


----------



## stephensynanta16

sanekn said:


> Thank you very much man for your gold input! Appreciate this much! I gotta say, that I have 0 problem with GKs TWFK undamped, love the trebly side (or maybe i've just lost treble due to too much unprotected metal concerts haha). Can I ask you what is the problem with 32066 RAB? Can I use this one or should i really buy some 32033s? I will definetely buy some more dampers tho.
> 
> Unfortunately for me, I don't think I can fit 3 bores in my tiny asian ears xD Will try to, but when I've tried long time ago to fit 2x3mm tubes it ain't finished well - both was squished in oval shape. But maybe I can make some sort of horn at the end and recess all the tubes...


the problem with 32066? it has no problem at all.

32033 or 32257 or 32063 is all per your taste. I personally prefer 32257, since if needed, it can be modified into 32033 just by removing the vent cloth.
I mistakenly bought 32033 because i underestimated the bass impact of a BA, i never thought before, such small BA can go bassy like that.

One more trick for MASM7:
u can try put a 10ohm resistor before BZ6's zobel, it'll reduce the loudness by about 5db on BZ6. It'll make the RAB more prominent.
It'll also increase the bass quantity if u're using 32033 or 32257, also shifting the tonality towards warm quite a bit.


----------



## Cevisi

stephensynanta16 said:


> its differ quite a bit. 32033 which is vented, will add quite some to the bass, has slower bass decay, but sometime also creep into the lower mid (i dont really like it). And due to it's bassy nature, it doesnt help much on treble area. it will have warmer vocal.
> 32063 is the opposite of 32033.
> 
> the build is depend on your taste:
> ...




Ehhm the bellsing one or knowles i see there are 2 of 32257


----------



## sanekn (Jan 16, 2020)

stephensynanta16 said:


> the problem with 32066? it has no problem at all.
> 
> 32033 or 32257 or 32063 is all per your taste. I personally prefer 32257, since if needed, it can be modified into 32033 just by removing the vent cloth.
> I mistakenly bought 32033 because i underestimated the bass impact of a BA, i never thought before, such small BA can go bassy like that.
> ...



Thank you very much for your input mate! Will absolutely make myself a test pair to try it all out and find some good sound. When i'll have time to do it, i will post my impressions on it


----------



## Elashri

is the Nicefit resin any good?
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32305126755.html?spm=a2g16.12010612.8148356.7.d983293cZ4ISBj


----------



## alanwcruz

ForceMajeure said:


> Maybe one with lower viscosityshould be better. (Fotoplast LV is Low Viscosity btw).
> also temperatures play a role since when colder it's more viscous.
> 
> what about pro3dure stuff? they should have a resin for dlp applications iirc. maybe you can acquire it



Dreve makes resin specific for DLP printers, problem is I haven't found a place where we "mortals" can purchase it...

https://otoplastikshop.dreve.de/otoplastiken/fototecr-dlp-a-4152.html


----------



## Cevisi

alanwcruz said:


> Dreve makes resin specific for DLP printers, problem is I haven't found a place where we "mortals" can purchase it...
> 
> https://otoplastikshop.dreve.de/otoplastiken/fototecr-dlp-a-4152.html



Yes they just sell to companys


et.haan said:


> Lol man, you'll get terrible readings with this, to be honest. You are trying to replicate a IEC711. This what you need to know: a 1/2 in tube around the Dayton mic. You can expand your mics diameter with tape, as the tube is too large for the mic. Then, make your tube 15.75mm long. This is the essence of a 711. Make it taper down to say, 1/3, maybe 1/4 of an inch, and then add a second tube for inserting your drivers. The taper must be at 90 degrees, and the whole thing must be sealed.





et.haan said:


> Lol man, you'll get terrible readings with this, to be honest. You are trying to replicate a IEC711. This what you need to know: a 1/2 in tube around the Dayton mic. You can expand your mics diameter with tape, as the tube is too large for the mic. Then, make your tube 15.75mm long. This is the essence of a 711. Make it taper down to say, 1/3, maybe 1/4 of an inch, and then add a second tube for inserting your drivers. The taper must be at 90 degrees, and the whole thing must be sealed.


15.75mm or cm ? Can you show me pictures of that constuction ?


----------



## et.haan

Cevisi said:


> Yes they just sell to companys
> 
> 
> 15.75mm or cm ? Can you show me pictures of that constuction ?


The taper is approximate. It is symmetrical. 15.75mm is correct, not .7527.


----------



## Cevisi

et.haan said:


> The taper is approximate. It is symmetrical. 15.75mm is correct, not .7527.


Wow thanks


----------



## pace88

alpha421 said:


> Thanks for all the interest.  Drivers are going to pace88.


thanks a lot bro,  everything's great


----------



## ForceMajeure (Jan 16, 2020)

alanwcruz said:


> Dreve makes resin specific for DLP printers, problem is I haven't found a place where we "mortals" can purchase it...
> 
> https://otoplastikshop.dreve.de/otoplastiken/fototecr-dlp-a-4152.html


Indeed, we mortals lol.
I feel your pain.

there is that stuff https://www.imakr.com/pro3dure-resins/pro3dure-gr-10-guide#/288-wavelength-405nm
https://www.protoproducts.com/store/Pro3dure-GR-10-Clear-1-Liter-p51396484

they also have those https://www.pro3dure.com/en/products/audiology/polymers/3d-print-resins/


----------



## pithyginger63

stephensynanta16 said:


> its differ quite a bit. 32033 which is vented, will add quite some to the bass, has slower bass decay, but sometime also creep into the lower mid (i dont really like it). And due to it's bassy nature, it doesnt help much on treble area. it will have warmer vocal.
> 32063 is the opposite of 32033.
> 
> the build is depend on your taste:
> ...


noob here, what happens is you block the vents on a BA driver?


----------



## Cevisi

pithyginger63 said:


> noob here, what happens is you block the vents on a BA driver?


Then you have less bass ba drivers dont move air whit a vent it does move a little bit air and simulates kinda dd bass


----------



## sanekn

Guys where you buy your capacitors, i can't find a 5µF anywhere, albeit mouser or digikey...


----------



## eunice

sanekn said:


> Guys where you buy your capacitors, i can't find a 5µF anywhere, albeit mouser or digikey...


Two 10uF in series is 5uF. 
Caps have very bad tolerances, if you have a multimeter that can measure capacitance to some accuracy (1% is good) then just buy a few and look for some that come close to your values.


----------



## sanekn (Jan 17, 2020)

eunice said:


> Two 10uF in series is 5uF.
> Caps have very bad tolerances, if you have a multimeter that can measure capacitance to some accuracy (1% is good) then just buy a few and look for some that come close to your values.


Thank you man! It seems i will finish all of this with a 10ohm28ohm10µF10µF sausage xD

Should be good now haha


----------



## stephensynanta16

pithyginger63 said:


> noob here, what happens is you block the vents on a BA driver?


less bass, as @Cevisi said.

Also on some case, u'll get some kind of distortion/weird resonance as a bonus, lol.

try to give the vent some space to breathe.


----------



## Cevisi

Here we go i take impressions by an audiologist a few minutes ago she asked me for what i need them i said i want to build ciems by my self she was pretty interestet and gave me an tutorial she was laughing all the time from where i know dreve and knowles she told me how to make the shells and yes we all do it right like an profesional she was astound that i know how to do it but we make one fault she said there is acryl from dreve that is light harding but not transculent and it will make a 1.5ml tickness shell from it self even if you put it for and hour under a uv light

She said they are ready to go i pre cut them just dont forget to dip them in wax 2 times before you make the mould



Now iam try to build my first shell


----------



## eunice

They look very good!


----------



## Cevisi

eunice said:


> They look very good!


Yea but i think it will be hard to do more then 1-2 tubes for me


----------



## eunice

Cevisi said:


> Yea but i think it will be hard to do more then 1-2 tubes for me


I have large ears and 2 tubes 3mm OD and 1 tube 1.5mm OD is a real PITA.


----------



## pithyginger63

stephensynanta16 said:


> less bass, as @Cevisi said.
> 
> Also on some case, u'll get some kind of distortion/weird resonance as a bonus, lol.
> 
> try to give the vent some space to breathe.


does the volume of air in the shell matter?


----------



## sanekn (Jan 17, 2020)

Cevisi said:


> Here we go i take impressions by an audiologist a few minutes ago she asked me for what i need them i said i want to build ciems by my self she was pretty interestet and gave me an tutorial she was laughing all the time from where i know dreve and knowles she told me how to make the shells and yes we all do it right like an profesional she was astound that i know how to do it but we make one fault she said there is acryl from dreve that is light harding but not transculent and it will make a 1.5ml tickness shell from it self even if you put it for and hour under a uv light
> 
> She said they are ready to go i pre cut them just dont forget to dip them in wax 2 times before you make the mould
> 
> Now iam try to build my first shell


Glad you could find a real pro interested in this stuff  The only one really intrigued by all of this was a trainee here.


eunice said:


> I have large ears and 2 tubes 3mm OD and 1 tube 1.5mm OD is a real PITA.


Damn i should not mess with it then... Mine are even less large


----------



## Cevisi (Jan 17, 2020)

So actually whit the wax dipping it get a bit thicker mal 2 tubes will be ok but i should hav buy 2 mold cans now i have to do it one after one

Another question can i do a shell whit endplate and dont do drivers or bores in it and use it as impression or should i just work whit the sillikon impressions


----------



## eunice

With every mold you will lose precision, I have tried to do one "blank" with no drivers and then use this as a mold. Doesn't work like that, sadly.
What I have done though is use an expensive a/b silicon to do the negative, then you can use the negative multiple times.


----------



## Cevisi

I think it was this one definitely dreve and thats the only yellow one

https://otoplastikshop.dreve.de/otoplastiken/otoformr-a-soft-4086.html


----------



## tomekk

This is the most necessary pre-sanding with a stone or sponge drill. Maybe add some material at the socket faceplate area.


----------



## Cevisi

tomekk said:


> This is the most necessary pre-sanding with a stone or sponge drill. Maybe add some material at the socket faceplate area.


Ok thanks i already waxed it and cast it i will look whati can do at the finish shell 

Yea i should be drill it first i took it like it was and waxxed it


----------



## Cevisi

Frirst shell turns out pretty nice no bubbles very clear 2 minutes uv and another 2 minutes turn 180 degre after that i poured the acryl out and let it dry for 3 minutes

Yea i should pre sand it a bit more and i think that was a bit too much waxx i diped it two times 

Its a bit ruff to insert i get it in my second bend but there is a pressure on my ear i will sand the corners whit my drill


----------



## Cevisi

I think this part was not necessary ?


----------



## eunice

Cevisi said:


> I think this part was not necessary ?


It is, but significantly reduce in size for easier insertion.


----------



## et.haan

Got a decent result with the 30017, with good air and nice extension. It will still need a mid, theres no way I could get the midrange frequencies up 10dB. This will likely need to be in the canal, based on tubing length. FR looks like the A/U12



4.5mm of 1mm tubing, goes into 4mm of 2mm tubing. 

Hint: Use an ED with a long tube to shift peaks for mid


----------



## Farquarl (Jan 19, 2020)

Hey hey,
i made a timelapse of 3D printing my shells. I got an awesome deal on a professional earmould scanner from Siemens. Check out the video.
If anyone wants their moulds scanned let me know. I can also print shells but you would need to pay for the biocompatable resin because it is really expensive.

 

Cheers


----------



## itsnotLupus

Farquarl said:


> Hey hey,
> i made a timelapse of 3D printing my shells. I got an awesome deal on a professional earmould scanner from Siemens. Check out the video.
> If anyone wants their moulds scanned let me know. I can also print shells but you would need to pay for the biocompatable resin because it is really expensive.
> 
> ...



That looks awesome.
I'm really interested. How much $ do you think it will be ?


----------



## Farquarl

itsnotLupus said:


> That looks awesome.
> I'm really interested. How much $ do you think it will be ?


What exactly? Scanning your moulds or printing you a pair of shells? Printing the shells is not just scanning and hit the print button. I will post a video of the digital process of moddeling a shell in a not so distant future. As for the price of the printed shells, i don´t want to make a profit (my guess is, this would be against forum rules anyway). I am located in germany so take that into account for shipping. For a pair i would take 20€. Due to the nature of 3D printing the shells will be opaque and need to be lacquered to achieve true transparency. 
If you just want your moulds as a 3D file i wont charge anything.


----------



## itsnotLupus (Jan 19, 2020)

sanekn said:


> Guys, i've found this scheme of MASM7 is this a good one? I have a really tiny ears, will try to fit 2 3mm OD but seems difficult... Here are my actual GK set i want to replace (acoustic tube detached from ba after a fall)
> 
> Do you think it's doable to make place for 2 tubes here?
> 
> I listen to alot of metal, jazz, classical, how's everyone experience with it?



Sorry, totally forgot to update the diagram and post description. there was a small change in the RAB tube length after a design update.
Now fixed in original post. Hope it's still useful.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/home-made-iems.430688/page-701#post-15336246


----------



## itsnotLupus

Farquarl said:


> What exactly? Scanning your moulds or printing you a pair of shells? Printing the shells is not just scanning and hit the print button. I will post a video of the digital process of moddeling a shell in a not so distant future. As for the price of the printed shells, i don´t want to make a profit (my guess is, this would be against forum rules anyway). I am located in germany so take that into account for shipping. For a pair i would take 20€. Due to the nature of 3D printing the shells will be opaque and need to be lacquered to achieve true transparency.
> If you just want your moulds as a 3D file i wont charge anything.



Thanks a lot, I will look for shipping prices on monday (UTC -6), to see if it's feasible. 
Where I live I have not been able to find a place where I can scan the molds, the closest has been in a dental office and they could not give me a clear answer if they would or not. Have tried Meshroom for photogrammetry scans, it was fun to try but not useful.
Almost all 3D printer shops only do FDM, the ones that have SLA or DLP are focused on the manufacturing industry, and the prices they have are just too high.

I know there is a lot of work involved in moddeling, I started messing around on Meshmixer and blender without reasonable success yet.


----------



## Farquarl

Here is how i do it in Meshmixer:


----------



## bamskie10

So I found this while searching taobao. BA made by molex, said to be used in the Final Audio Heaven II.

https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.14.6.40fd3116aS7ALl&id=524641454588


----------



## Tornbrand

This probably is a stupid question but I’m making my first ciem with the belsing 10013 and I’ve read that many of you guys use a zobel with 25 ohm resistor and 22uf cap. But I can’t find a suitable resistor or cap. Anyone that can point me in the right direction to where and which to buy.
Thanks!


----------



## eunice

Use 10Ohm and 15 Ohm in series (or 12 and 13 or whatever) as resistor. 22uF caps are easy to find, e.g. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/323...chweb0_0,searchweb201602_6,searchweb201603_53


----------



## Tornbrand

eunice said:


> Use 10Ohm and 15 Ohm in series (or 12 and 13 or whatever) as resistor. 22uF caps are easy to find, e.g. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/323...chweb0_0,searchweb201602_6,searchweb201603_53



regarding caps, what volt should be used?
Thanks for your reply


----------



## Tornbrand

Tornbrand said:


> regarding caps, what volt should be used?
> Thanks for your reply


Never mind my last comment. Completely missed your link (don’t know how that was possible)


----------



## emil2099

Tornbrand said:


> This probably is a stupid question but I’m making my first ciem with the belsing 10013 and I’ve read that many of you guys use a zobel with 25 ohm resistor and 22uf cap. But I can’t find a suitable resistor or cap. Anyone that can point me in the right direction to where and which to buy.
> Thanks!



I have also used this which I’m assuming is close enough:
https://uk.farnell.com/panasonic/erjp08f24r9v/res-24r9-1-0-66w-1206-thick-film/dp/2327125


----------



## Tornbrand

emil2099 said:


> I have also used this which I’m assuming is close enough:
> https://uk.farnell.com/panasonic/erjp08f24r9v/res-24r9-1-0-66w-1206-thick-film/dp/2327125


Does it matter what volt cap I use?


----------



## sanekn

itsnotLupus said:


> Sorry, totally forgot to update the diagram and post description. there was a small change in the RAB tube length after a design update.
> Now fixed in original post. Hope it's still useful.
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/home-made-iems.430688/page-701#post-15336246


Thank you very much man, it's not too late, I've been really busy at work and remodeling the flat so didn't really had time to do anything CIEM related  I'm just preparing myself slowly


----------



## eunice

Tornbrand said:


> Does it matter what volt cap I use?



The max output of a smartphone headphone jack is 3.5V peak to peak, since the BA are very sensitive that is more than enough to drive to most of the recipes in this thread to more than enough volume.

So using unpolarized caps that are 5V or up is good. If you want to read about how to use polarized caps, search for NASA in this thread.


----------



## MuZo2

Farquarl said:


> Here is how i do it in Meshmixer:



Hi that's quiet impressive. I have few questions 
1) What resin printer are you using
2) Do you have a link to the scanner you used
3) What biocompatible resin are you using and where did you source it
4) Do you directly print scanned model ? I guess that means the earmold have to be prepared before hand.

Suggestion
Have a look at Secretear software , if you want to take it futher. Its a software to model the ear pieces from scan model.


----------



## wardy

I see how this can come an addiction now... Here are a couple of new builds, experimenting with different resins and driver combos, White is a Single RAB-32257 and the black is a triple CI / TWFK combo.


----------



## eunice

beautiful! Get some white cables for the white ones


----------



## Farquarl

MuZo2 said:


> Hi that's quiet impressive. I have few questions
> 1) What resin printer are you using
> 2) Do you have a link to the scanner you used
> 3) What biocompatible resin are you using and where did you source it
> ...


Hey,
1. I'm using a Flashforge Hunter, which is a 405nm led DLP printer.
2. I don't have a link but the scanner is called IScan by Siemens. I got it labeled as "broke" for 160€.
3.Im using Detax freeprint mould. I'm friends with someone who sells hearing aids I sourced it over him.
4. I don't print the scanned model directly. If you watch the video I posted you can see the direct scans at the start. I just trimm the moulds because it is easier than doing it digitally.
The Secret Ear software from cyfex definitely is very interesting but you can't buy a stand alone version. I'm looking into that atm  because doing it with meshmixer is a pita.


----------



## catlord

Hi, I decided on building my first ciem with a 3d printed shell (FDM, usp VI biocompatible clear PETG) once I find somewhere to scan the moulds (that doesn't ask 160€ for scanning alone) and was looking for a build not too complex as a first one (single driver so that I don't have to deal with multiple tubes and connections yet) and came around the RAB-p with the RAB32257 however I don't completely understand the tubing of it, has anyone done it? Does it need 3 different diameters? 1/2 (ID/OD), 2/3 and 3/? (can't find any with ID 3.0). I'm referring to https://imgur.com/gallery/6KbsuyT and https://www.head-fi.org/threads/home-made-iems.430688/page-687#post-15279030, not sure if those have been updated since. Also is there a size of caps/resistors that would work best for this application? Is there some other build that is realatively easy to do? Thanks and sorry if I ask stupid questions I'm trying to understand this and I'm not really familiar with it


----------



## dhruvmeena96

catlord said:


> Hi, I decided on building my first ciem with a 3d printed shell (FDM, usp VI biocompatible clear PETG) once I find somewhere to scan the moulds (that doesn't ask 160€ for scanning alone) and was looking for a build not too complex as a first one (single driver so that I don't have to deal with multiple tubes and connections yet) and came around the RAB-p with the RAB32257 however I don't completely understand the tubing of it, has anyone done it? Does it need 3 different diameters? 1/2 (ID/OD), 2/3 and 3/? (can't find any with ID 3.0). I'm referring to https://imgur.com/gallery/6KbsuyT and https://www.head-fi.org/threads/home-made-iems.430688/page-687#post-15279030, not sure if those have been updated since. Also is there a size of caps/resistors that would work best for this application? Is there some other build that is realatively easy to do? Thanks and sorry if I ask stupid questions I'm trying to understand this and I'm not really familiar with it


See this



Caluub said:


> Just finished a set of universals using the RAB 32257 design by dhruvmeena and Choy Wei De. I wanted to build something inexpensive to use with a Bluetooth adapter while at the gym or climbing. This is only the second set of universals I've built. Previous builds include three iterations of customs with Knowles GV, one universal with GV for my girlfriend, and a B6 + zobel ciem that I'm currently working on.
> 
> I think these sound great for a sub-$100 build. Bass reproduction is lacking a bit and treble could use a bit more taming to prevent fatigue. Overall, the quality for price is amazing and the work put into the zobel and tubing (dhruvmeena & Choy Wei De) for this is very impressive.
> 
> ...



He used the nozzle of iem as 3mm ID
But
Also

3mm ID tube is available everywhere


----------



## catlord

dhruvmeena96 said:


> See this
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks, I can't seem to find it on ali, amazon, ebay, digikey or mouser, I can only find with a 3mm ID ptfe tube for 3d printing extruders or metal tubes, on Ali soundlink only has up to 2.5mm ID, what do you search for it? Would ptfe or the petg from the filament work too? Density is similiar with petg (1.38 g/cm3 vs 1.45 for pvc) and higher with ptfe (2.2g/cm3), is there a reason for using pvc?


----------



## eunice

Soundlink: 
https://a.aliexpress.com/_TQqP2


----------



## MuZo2

Farquarl said:


> Hey,
> 
> 2. I don't have a link but the scanner is called IScan by Siemens. I got it labeled as "broke" for 160€.



Thanks for the information. You got lucky with the scanner. I need to keep looking for such, Did it come with driver and software?


----------



## Farquarl

Indeed pretty lucky. It came with the software and drivers and it is an open system. Just put in the impressions and hit scan. I managed to scan my impressions with a DIY version of David sls too. It is just so much more work.

Take a look and search for open dental scanners there are some good deals out there.


----------



## ForceMajeure

Has anyone here tried the swfk 32625?
it has heavy damping at the spout so supposedly no peak

But I wonder if crossed and with a ~9-10mm tubing it would exhibit a typical resonance where the usual swfk does although subdued a bit.


----------



## gregeagle

Hey everbody.....

I have been reading your threads for over a year.....and now its time to thank you ALL big time for sharing all your Knowledge......

here are some of my builds….mainly GK's and BS6's with zobel...….hope you like it......Nothing special though...

https://share.icloud.com/photos/0uFfhX2Ogtj0h-ZcTZOC2VqgA

THANK YOU ALL AGAIN!!!!!!!!!

KEEP UP BUILDIN'


----------



## dhruvmeena96

gregeagle said:


> Hey everbody.....
> 
> I have been reading your threads for over a year.....and now its time to thank you ALL big time for sharing all your Knowledge......
> 
> ...


Its asking me for apple I'd
I dont have one

I dont use Apple products


----------



## mattmatt

gregeagle said:


> Hey everbody.....
> 
> I have been reading your threads for over a year.....and now its time to thank you ALL big time for sharing all your Knowledge......
> 
> ...


Good job! Do you lacquer them?


----------



## Cevisi

After putting to much wax on my impression so that the shell dont fit me i take the same impressions. Remote the wax drill them a bit down and wax them again hope this time it work. i should get next week my drivers and the injector too take my own impressions


----------



## gregeagle

mattmatt said:


> Good job! Do you lacquer them?


Lak3 and the coloured Ones from pro3dure


----------



## gregeagle

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Its asking me for apple I'd
> I dont have one
> 
> I dont use Apple products


It should work on windows too!?!


----------



## eunice

gregeagle said:


> It should work on windows too!?!


Not without an Apple ID?


----------



## MuZo2

gregeagle said:


> Hey everbody.....
> 
> 
> 
> here are some of my builds….mainly GK's and BS6's with zobel...….hope you like it......Nothing special though...



Great job, you seem to have advanced to professional level.


----------



## MuZo2

eunice said:


> Not without an Apple ID?


It works without apple id for me.


----------



## mattmatt

gregeagle said:


> Lak3 and the coloured Ones from pro3dure


Have you tried the black one from them?


----------



## eunice

mattmatt said:


> Have you tried the black one from them?


I have and it is awesome. It is a little bit thicker than Lack3 and easier to work with. Also I love the darker black it produces.

Its not without challenges though, here is my first attempt.


----------



## emil2099

Guys, thanks again for helping on this thread. I have made my first BS6+Zobel CIEM and now working on MASM7 to fix some execution issues and hopefully improve the sound. Will write up some lessons learned once done (hopefully in a week).

Is there a common view on venting / Adel / Apex modules? I have noticed build up of ear pressure in my first CIEM which causes mild discomfort even at very low listening volumes. Has anyone come up with solution to this? Also is it right to think that any sort of venting will require an additional tube back to the shell or directly into Apex / Adel?


----------



## Cevisi

Someone know what went wrong here my first one was smooth but was to thick because i dip it 2 times in wax this one is bubbly but fits now


----------



## eunice

Cevisi said:


> Someone know what went wrong here my first one was smooth but was to thick because i dip it 2 times in wax this one is bubbly but fits now


Can you see the bubbles in the negative? If I use old agar or agar that is too hot sometimes they come out like this.


----------



## Cevisi (Jan 27, 2020)

eunice said:


> Can you see the bubbles in the negative? If I use old agar or agar that is too hot sometimes they come out like this.


I used the agar agar a second time i opend the bag 2 weeks ago

Did you ever try the pulver agar agar? I used the ready to go agar from mc ear


----------



## eunice

Cevisi said:


> I used the agar agar a second time i opend the bag 2 weeks ago


You can use agar a few times. However I think it really depends on how hot it becomes, how long it is hot and so on. I replace mine if it turns yellow. 
Also you have to wait for the agar to cool down below 55°C so the wax does not melt when you pour the agar over the wax.
If you make a negative and wait for a few days the agar will dry and also create these kind of dimples.


----------



## emil2099

Cevisi said:


> I used the agar agar a second time i opend the bag 2 weeks ago
> 
> Did you ever try the pulver agar agar? I used the ready to go agar from mc ear



One thing I've learned is that I get better results starting with fresh agar agar which I got in powder form from Amazon but it is also readily available from supermarkets here in the UK really cheap. 

Use 1 table spoon with 200ml of cold water, let it sit for 10 min, then bring to boil. I then sieve it through fine mesh to get rid of foam / bubbles and let it cool to 45 Celsius. Then make your negatives as per usual.


----------



## Kulgrinda

Cevisi said:


> Someone know what went wrong here my first one was smooth but was to thick because i dip it 2 times in wax this one is bubbly but fits now


Might have been wax that melted a bit when poured over with hot agar. Might have been bubbles created by too hot agar. Carefully check agar temperature, I let it cool to ~50 celsium before pouring it and I get perfect results without any bubbles.


----------



## gregeagle

emil2099 said:


> One thing I've learned is that I get better results starting with fresh agar agar which I got in powder form from Amazon but it is also readily available from supermarkets here in the UK really cheap.
> 
> Use 1 table spoon with 200ml of cold water, let it sit for 10 min, then bring to boil. I then sieve it through fine mesh to get rid of foam / bubbles and let it cool to 45 Celsius. Then make your negatives as per usual.



Hey.... could you send a link which Agar you exactly use???
Thanks Greg!


----------



## emil2099

gregeagle said:


> Hey.... could you send a link which Agar you exactly use???
> Thanks Greg!


https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07YZPJKQF/


----------



## eunice

gregeagle said:


> Hey.... could you send a link which Agar you exactly use???
> Thanks Greg!


https://www.mcear.de/epages/78599304.sf/de_DE/?ObjectID=2898047


----------



## gregeagle

I wanna share some Knowledge on DIY'ing….

made myself a turning rotor for laquering…..

just some Kind of small box, a clamp, a 12V Batterie, on/off switch and a Motor(12V 15 rpm) from Amazon (link below) an some soldering… thats About it.... 1h hour of work….a does the Job perfectly!!!
https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B07559FCRN/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1




 

 

 











GREG


----------



## gregeagle

eunice said:


> https://www.mcear.de/epages/78599304.sf/de_DE/?ObjectID=2898047


This is what i used all the time....is good stuff...expensive though...


----------



## gregeagle

emil2099 said:


> https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07YZPJKQF/


Thanks!!


----------



## mattmatt

eunice said:


> I have and it is awesome. It is a little bit thicker than Lack3 and easier to work with. Also I love the darker black it produces.
> 
> Its not without challenges though, here is my first attempt.



What went wrong? Is it see through or opaque?


----------



## eunice

It’s opaque. Since it’s a bit thicker than Lack you can see the brush strokes.


----------



## mattmatt

eunice said:


> It’s opaque. Since it’s a bit thicker than Lack you can see the brush strokes.


It doesn't level out?


----------



## eunice

mattmatt said:


> It doesn't level out?


It does, but slower than Lack3. I think it’s very good and I prefer it over Lack3 for opaque shells, but I have to adapt my brushing technique a little.


----------



## mattmatt

eunice said:


> It does, but slower than Lack3. I think it’s very good and I prefer it over Lack3 for opaque shells, but I have to adapt my brushing technique a little.


Lacquering is one of the hardest to master. Even after a lot of builds, I still miss getting a perfect coat every now and then.


----------



## icarusforde

eunice said:


> It does, but slower than Lack3. I think it’s very good and I prefer it over Lack3 for opaque shells, but I have to adapt my brushing technique a little.


I wonder if you heated it up a bit in a water bath prior to application - might be a little easier to work with?


----------



## eunice

icarusforde said:


> I wonder if you heated it up a bit in a water bath prior to application - might be a little easier to work with?


Didn’t try that. It’s not necessary I think, if you give it a few minutes to spread it turns out very good.
The one in the pictures was the first attempt for me. I was in a hurry (never a good idea) and the next few I did turned out much better.


----------



## Daedalus1116

Does anypne have the FR of MASM 7?


----------



## Farquarl

Hey,
I have a pair of GK's and also the respective drivers of Bellsing. But I find them difficult to tune. I find the sound from both the Knowles and the bellsing variant to be "Bloaty". Has anyone experience with that ?


----------



## eunice

Farquarl said:


> Hey,
> I have a pair of GK's and also the respective drivers of Bellsing. But I find them difficult to tune. I find the sound from both the Knowles and the bellsing variant to be "Bloaty". Has anyone experience with that ?


Both need damping and the BS6 needs a Zobel to sound good. Both bass drivers are bloating in the mids and need to be damped.

My damping for BS6 is orange for bass and white for TWFK. 

What did you try to tune it?


----------



## Daedalus1116

@Farquarl Have you tried modeling the sound bores directly into the 3D files?
Can I send you files to print the shells out of biocompatible resin? I'm in Switzerland so shipping would probably be pretty cheap.


----------



## Farquarl

Daedalus1116 said:


> @Farquarl Have you tried modeling the sound bores directly into the 3D files?
> Can I send you files to print the shells out of biocompatible resin? I'm in Switzerland so shipping would probably be pretty cheap.


Yes I did, totally doable. Just hit me with a PM and we can discuss everything there.


----------



## Farquarl

eunice said:


> Both need damping and the BS6 needs a Zobel to sound good. Both bass drivers are bloating in the mids and need to be damped.
> 
> My damping for BS6 is orange for bass and white for TWFK.
> 
> What did you try to tune it?



I tried red on Cl and white in twfk. I tried  the other way around and many crossover configurations from a high pass of the twfk and a simple resistor for the cl to a low pass high pass combination.  When you guys use ARTA do you compensate for the open ear gain?


----------



## eunice

Farquarl said:


> I tried red on Cl and white in twfk.


Red is not nearly enough for the CI, it bloats into the mids like crazy. Try yellow on the CI, but the Knowles GK never sounded good to me. In fact not a single build based on the CI got that bloat into the mids under control.

The DTEC of the BS6 is not bloating as much as the CI, so orange or even red on the DTEC should be enough.


----------



## Daedalus1116

Thanks for the offer Farquarl.
So I just found out that my university has this industrial 3D scanner capable of 0.1mm resolution (https://www.artec3d.com/portable-3d-scanners/artec-spider). Do you guys think it's better to cut the impressions to final CIEM shape or to cut the scanned file?
Since the shells will be 3D printed, is it better to model in the sound bores up to the BA drivers so that no acoustic tubing is used at all?


----------



## Farquarl

Daedalus1116 said:


> Thanks for the offer Farquarl.
> So I just found out that my university has this industrial 3D scanner capable of 0.1mm resolution (https://www.artec3d.com/portable-3d-scanners/artec-spider). Do you guys think it's better to cut the impressions to final CIEM shape or to cut the scanned file?
> Since the shells will be 3D printed, is it better to model in the sound bores up to the BA drivers so that no acoustic tubing is used at all?


Nice one! I would highly recommend to at least trimm the impression. As with meshmixer it is quite hard to trim "precisely". I would also recommend that you don´t design tubes/bores right up to the transducer. It is alsways nice to be able to flex the position of the speakers inside the shell. In my honest opinion designen the bores digitaly is a huge waste of time.If you are still interested i could make another video where i show the process in detail. Let me know
Cheers


----------



## et.haan

eunice said:


> Red is not nearly enough for the CI, it bloats into the mids like crazy. Try yellow on the CI, but the Knowles GK never sounded good to me. In fact not a single build based on the CI got that bloat into the mids under control.
> 
> The DTEC of the BS6 is not bloating as much as the CI, so orange or even red on the DTEC should be enough.


CI, center tap and zobel will work up to 3khz. 

As a true woofer, 2nd order 100uf looks like this. 
Also has 2 yellow dampers  

Pretty great. Takes a fair bit of electronics though.



Daedalus1116 said:


> Thanks for the offer Farquarl.
> So I just found out that my university has this industrial 3D scanner capable of 0.1mm resolution (https://www.artec3d.com/portable-3d-scanners/artec-spider). Do you guys think it's better to cut the impressions to final CIEM shape or to cut the scanned file?
> Since the shells will be 3D printed, is it better to model in the sound bores up to the BA drivers so that no acoustic tubing is used at all?



Absolutely incorporate the bores into your design if you can. But, just make sure you already have a design in mind for crossover. 

This is how 64 can create such a massive soundstage. They print their tubes, and use a monobore to have otherwise impossibly large volume. You can also use it as a horn, and get improved HF response. You may need a 711 to tune this. 

Meshmixer is absolutely not my preferred cad program, but somebody did a great video on making IEM’s in it. Search the reddit page for it.


----------



## icarusforde

et.haan said:


> Meshmixer is absolutely not my preferred cad program, but somebody did a great video on making IEM’s in it. Search the reddit page for it.



I believe this is the video you're referring to:


----------



## Farquarl (Jan 29, 2020)

icarusforde said:


> I believe this is the video you're referring to:



If someone follows this tutorial don´t offset the tip of your canal by 0.75mm this is way too much. I think this will propably hurt while inserting and also wearing. I read a paper about the topic off the the right offset. Conclusion was that 0.2-0.3mm is the best for fit and seal. This needs to be applied to the whole scan since the seal happens further down the canal at the transition from the concha to the canal. Also printing your faceplates is not a good idea due to the support needed to hold it. It will look quite ugly.

@et.haan
Thanks for the tipp i will try it out to make some use out of my remaining CL´s.
What CAD program do you prefeer for making IEM? I have not found a good alternative except maybe the proffessional versions from cyfex and 3Shape (which are hard to come by)


> Absolutely incorporate the bores into your design if you can. But, just make sure you already have a design in mind for crossover.


Yes exactly and if you dont have a speacial design such as a horn in mind and just want simple bores doing it "manually" is better/easier.


----------



## et.haan

Farquarl said:


> If someone follows this tutorial don´t offset the tip of your canal by 0.75mm this is way too much. I think this will propably hurt while inserting and also wearing. I read a paper about the topic off the the right offset. Conclusion was that 0.2-0.3mm is the best for fit and seal. This needs to be applied to the whole scan since the seal happens further down the canal at the transition from the concha to the canal. Also printing your faceplates is not a good idea due to the support needed to hold it. It will look quite ugly.
> 
> @et.haan
> Thanks for the tipp i will try it out to make some use out of my remaining CL´s.
> ...


This depends on impression. He probably had closed jaw. It takes trial and error. 

It is CI. I once said the same. 

I use Autodesk Inventor. As a numbers guy, I love it. I can control everything. But, with this, comes it being a pain for anything remotely organic. Dont use it for natural shapes lol. For other stuff, its great. You can have a 20,000 part assembly and it will do “fine”. 

I would use meshmix (or hopefully, a better alternative) for adding volume to shell. I would then export in whatever can give me the most details (maybe .stl size set to meters) and then, open in Inventor. From there, mess around with tubes. You can find 3d models of drivers on KN’s website. Find something you like, and then check it in CFD. Do a pressure analysis.


----------



## Daedalus1116

Designing in special bores sounds extremely rewarding, but also extremely hard for hobbyist.
My current plan is just so that I don't have to dremel out any material when building the CIEM.

Has anyone tried making 3 bores version of the MASM 7?


----------



## et.haan (Jan 30, 2020)

Well... Almost 11 years later...  some buddies and I figured it out. We are all blind.

Hell, 14 years, if you are talking about the release of the 22955. Okay, what am I saying about the 22955?

Its got a vent. No, you can check, but its not on the datasheet.

Even the Bellsing one has this vent. I think it is integral to the design.



The worlds loudest driver just got louder.

By calculation, it should be 132dB sensitivity.
Heres the response. Sorry for the photo, my keyboard needs a reflash, so I cant type anything on my computer, other than with using an onscreen keyboard.
This is a 25*1mm ID tube, into a 711.




Notice: I accidentally clicked post before I got the response back on the real CI having a vent too. Ill edit if it doesnt, but it should.

Edit 2: 22955 came out in 2010, but the 30050 came out in ‘06. Weird. It is likely on the 30050.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Daedalus1116 said:


> Designing in special bores sounds extremely rewarding, but also extremely hard for hobbyist.
> My current plan is just so that I don't have to dremel out any material when building the CIEM.
> 
> Has anyone tried making 3 bores version of the MASM 7?


MASM7Z

@stephensynanta16 and me




Farquarl said:


> If someone follows this tutorial don´t offset the tip of your canal by 0.75mm this is way too much. I think this will propably hurt while inserting and also wearing. I read a paper about the topic off the the right offset. Conclusion was that 0.2-0.3mm is the best for fit and seal. This needs to be applied to the whole scan since the seal happens further down the canal at the transition from the concha to the canal. Also printing your faceplates is not a good idea due to the support needed to hold it. It will look quite ugly.
> 
> @et.haan
> Thanks for the tipp i will try it out to make some use out of my remaining CL´s.
> ...




Its CI(ci) and not CL


----------



## et.haan (Jan 30, 2020)

et.haan said:


> Well... Almost 11 years later...  some buddies and I figured it out. We are all blind.
> 
> Hell, 14 years, if you are talking about the release of the 22955. Okay, what am I saying about the 22955?
> 
> ...



Edit 3: If you have a 29689, please try and post this. It could be a 26805 in disguise.

Edit 1 billion: Thats not an edit. Im an idiot. Time for bed.


----------



## et.haan

*Fairly manual monobore design guide below *


Daedalus1116 said:


> Designing in special bores sounds extremely rewarding, but also extremely hard for hobbyist.
> My current plan is just so that I don't have to dremel out any material when building the CIEM.
> 
> Has anyone tried making 3 bores version of the MASM 7?


3 bore is certainly possible, although it depends on your ear. I can do 5 tubes, or 3 2mm ID’s. The typical ear, with some practice on a dremel, should be able to do 2 2mm ID + 1mm ID, for the woofer part of MASM7. 

I had an idea a while back, that although I havent tried, is the solution to an EASY monobore, that matches from left to right. Usually, I will at least prototype something before I right about it, but as they are the new cool to talk about, here we go. Everything works in theory. 

What you need:
Krystallloid negative of an impression
Heat gun
Small drill bit (size TBD)
Wooden dowel (same size as drill bit) + fine pen + caliper OR
3d Printer

Step 1: Use the Heat gun to heat up the back side of your drill bit. Metals, especially tool steel, are generally quite thermally conductive, so you may want to holy the bit with a pair of pliers, as it will get hot. Poke the hot drill bit from the base of the negative in to the canal. The krystallloid melts very easily. Be sure to hold it upright, and occasionally remove the drill bit from the negative, so that the molten krystallloid flows out the base, not into the canal. 
Note: When casting your negatives, you will want to make the canal of your impression stand as close to vertical as possible, so that the drill bit will  enter the canal evenly, and not have any thin walls. You can prop the impression up with hot glue. 

From here, you have a krystallloid negative with a massive hole in it. Ha! sucker! Go make another one, and dont be so gullible next time

Just kidding. From here, you have two options for plugging. Either A: Put the dowel into the hole (after making sure they are the same length, the volume is important) and cast with fotoplast, or B, 3D print something to fit inside the monobore, with a base the size of the drill bit. 

With the 3d printer, you can incorporate a looooong horn, or a support for something like the 30019.


----------



## sanekn (Jan 31, 2020)

et.haan said:


> CI, center tap and zobel will work up to 3khz.
> 
> As a true woofer, 2nd order 100uf looks like this.
> Also has 2 yellow dampers
> ...


Hey, you think if one use one bigass tube like 3 or 4mm ID, it could be a great idea? thinking of it for my future build. Just for testing it out. Wouldn't it be like a monobore if one glue it as usual at the tip and then fill the canal with fotoplast for it to be set at a good angle etc


----------



## raygunraymond

hey everyone im having trouble sourcing resistors
What power rating should i be looking for?
I haven't found anything small enough i think
US sources are appreciated


----------



## eunice

Go for 1206 or 0805 smd resistors. 8V is enough, 16V is easy to get. 
Try mouser?


----------



## raygunraymond

eunice said:


> Go for 1206 or 0805 smd resistors. 8V is enough, 16V is easy to get.
> Try mouser?


i dont see voltage rating
but would this be fine? https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Vishay-Dale/RCP1206W25R0GEB?qs=LoR24wFhMuj0Qz%2BVGQ97Bw==
2.5w at 25ohm should be 8v?


----------



## eunice

raygunraymond said:


> i dont see voltage rating
> but would this be fine? https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Vishay-Dale/RCP1206W25R0GEB?qs=LoR24wFhMuj0Qz%2BVGQ97Bw==
> 2.5w at 25ohm should be 8v?


More than enough. These are fine.


----------



## raygunraymond

eunice said:


> More than enough. These are fine.


but ive also read i should go for wirewound


----------



## icarusforde

raygunraymond said:


> but ive also read i should go for wirewound


Buy both and see what you prefer. 

Honestly, the resistors and caps will the smallest cost you incur in these whole projects, esp. if you buy them in a larger quantity. I just bought a book of misc 1206 SMD’s off Ali and will fiddle with those to build whatever when I want. They cost piss all anyway.


----------



## eunice (Jan 31, 2020)

Not only are the resistors a fraction of the cost, they also make such a small difference in sound that it takes a very long time to even make two IEM similar enough that you can hear the difference between resistors.

Even the smallest deviations in a bore make way more difference than the resistor.
After all the power that the BAs need is very small and no problem for any type of resistor.

The Vishay ones from the link above are certainly very good. Buying a book of smd resistors and capacitors is what I did and I find it very useful.


----------



## mattmatt

Hey guys, anybody have tried dreve translucent black?


----------



## eunice

mattmatt said:


> Hey guys, anybody have tried dreve translucent black?


Yes, the last images I posted are translucent black.


----------



## emil2099 (Feb 1, 2020)

emil2099 said:


> Guys, thanks again for helping on this thread. I have made my first BS6+Zobel CIEM and now working on MASM7 to fix some execution issues and hopefully improve the sound. Will write up some lessons learned once done (hopefully in a week).
> 
> Is there a common view on venting / Adel / Apex modules? I have noticed build up of ear pressure in my first CIEM which causes mild discomfort even at very low listening volumes. Has anyone come up with solution to this? Also is it right to think that any sort of venting will require an additional tube back to the shell or directly into Apex / Adel?



I will try to start answering my own questions on vent holes... obviously a beginner here so would welcome thoughts from more experienced colleagues 

What if we drill 0.6mm holes (i) next to the acoustic tubes going into the shell and (ii) on faceplates? Based on Chris Furton’s DIY Guide, a hole this size “is primarily a pressure vent and it will have very little effect on the frequency response above 400Hz”.

I used my rough BS6+Z for testing and IMM-6 with a DIY pipe coupler validated against Crinacle’s DB on Andromeda’s for FR measurements. Isolation tested using this test playing through HD650: https://www.audiocheck.net/testtones_hearingtestaudiogram.php

No claim of science but in summary:
+ Comfort (subjective) - inner ear pressure is gone
+ Soundstage - everything really opens up. Soundstage so lacking in BS6 is there now.
- Isolation - particularly in the bass, but in practice quite tolerable (see graph).
- - - Bass - significant loss of energy in the sun-250Hz area. So much so that the thing is practically lacking any bass response.

I may try going down to 0.4mm holes or indeed drilling them in the tubing just to see what happens, but it definitely not a recommended approach for now.


----------



## eunice

For bass you need an airtight seal. If you want pressure relief you have to look into APEX modules, but if you build the ciem well enough it’s not a problem.


----------



## emil2099

eunice said:


> For bass you need an airtight seal. If you want pressure relief you have to look into APEX modules, but if you build the ciem well enough it’s not a problem.


Apex modules are expensive. Any advise on what constitutes a well built CIEM (currently using your recipe for BS6 and building a MASM7) which solves the ear pressure issue and opens up soundstage?


----------



## eunice

emil2099 said:


> Apex modules are expensive. Any advise on what constitutes a well built CIEM (currently using your recipe for BS6 and building a MASM7) which solves the ear pressure issue and opens up soundstage?


My trick is to deepen the groove here a little and build an otherwise tight fit


----------



## mattmatt

eunice said:


> Yes, the last images I posted are translucent black.


anyphotos with clear lacquer?  how long does it need to be cured?


----------



## eunice (Feb 1, 2020)

mattmatt said:


> anyphotos with clear lacquer?  how long does it need to be cured?



This is Black Dreve Fotoplast with clear Dreve Lack3
 

In my UV cheap nail lamp the transparent Dreve Fotoplast is about 2:30 minutes, the black fotoplast is 2:50 and whit pro3dure is 11:00. The curing time of the lacquer is around 15:00.


----------



## mattmatt

eunice said:


> This is Black Dreve Fotoplast with clear Dreve Lack3
> 
> 
> In my UV cheap nail lamp the transparent Dreve Fotoplast is about 2:30 minutes, the black fotoplast is 2:50 and whit pro3dure is 11:00. The curing time of the lacquer is around 15:00.


They look promising. 

Any idea how to make a solid black resin? Been having troubles with mine.


----------



## eunice

This translucent black by dreve looks opaque in any real world scenario. You have to back light it to even see that it’s a bit translucent. If you add the black lacquer from pro3dure you get a nice dark black with a silky finish - not as glossy as fotoplast black alone. 
i don’t think you can get much blacker without a ton of experimentation, after all if it’s too dark it won’t let UV light pass and won’t cure properly.


----------



## mattmatt

eunice said:


> This translucent black by dreve looks opaque in any real world scenario. You have to back light it to even see that it’s a bit translucent. If you add the black lacquer from pro3dure you get a nice dark black with a silky finish - not as glossy as fotoplast black alone.
> i don’t think you can get much blacker without a ton of experimentation, after all if it’s too dark it won’t let UV light pass and won’t cure properly.


True that. I wasted a ton of resin because of that. Thanks for the info bud! Helps me a lot.


----------



## Farquarl

mattmatt said:


> True that. I wasted a ton of resin because of that. Thanks for the info bud! Helps me a lot.


If you were to print the shells you could achieve "true" blackness since the printer has to polymerise only 0.05mm at a time and therefore the pigment concentration can be much higher.


----------



## mattmatt

Farquarl said:


> If you were to print the shells you could achieve "true" blackness since the printer has to polymerise only 0.05mm at a time and therefore the pigment concentration can be much higher.


Can we use fotoplast on 3d printers? Haven't tried it.


----------



## Farquarl

mattmatt said:


> Can we use fotoplast on 3d printers? Haven't tried it.


Definitely not the clear ones, light bleeding would render every try useless.if there is pigmented fotoplast maybe. I don't know how much mW/cm² it needs to polymerise fotoplast. My guess is that you would at least need a DLP uv led system or a laser printer to make that happen. Clear or transparent resins for 3d printing need to have a light blocking agent in them to prevent overcuring. Most of the time a uv fluorescent substance is used.


----------



## sanekn

Guys, is anyone tried to make a inert gaz oxygen-free chamber? anyone have some info on the tech?


----------



## Farquarl

sanekn said:


> Guys, is anyone tried to make a inert gaz oxygen-free chamber? anyone have some info on the tech?


I thought about it. But glycerin works just as well and is cheaper and easier just not as "cool".


----------



## sanekn (Feb 4, 2020)

I think of it cause now making a new curing chamber with 365nm leds this time... And thought you can get argon/CO2/nitrogen everywhere here for mig/tig welding, at the end of the day it's less messy than glycerine and faster... As I understand it you just need to make the airtight chamber with the gas entry for CO2 bottle and some sort of a valve I guess to let the oxygen go out of the box.
Trying to source some info rn, but all I find is how to make an euthanasia chamber, nasty stuff


----------



## MamatYoSekmat

Hi guys, all this time I've been curing resin using a UV led nail lamp, and it's hard to make a photoflash, I don't know how much NM, and I want to make a UV chamber with 6 side lights with a timer module for photoflash, which is better 365nm / 395nm  ?  Considering that 365nm is more expensive than 395nm, is 365nm better for Uv resin?


----------



## sanekn (Feb 4, 2020)

MamatYoSekmat said:


> Hi guys, all this time I've been curing resin using a UV led nail lamp, and it's hard to make a photoflash, I don't know how much NM, and I want to make a UV chamber with 6 side lights with a timer module for photoflash, which is better 365nm / 395nm  ?  Considering that 365nm is more expensive than 395nm, is 365nm better for Uv resin?


Hello, in theory you can use leds on some walls and on some walls just mirrors to reflect the light. 365nm is recomended for dreve fotoplast. I've tried to make shells with 395nm led strips for a long time, but it gave me uneven shells with holes sometimes. Frustrating. Personally i've just purcahsed 4 10w 365nm leds from ali, gotta see how it turns out.
But let's confirm with some pros here what is the optimal wavelegth.


----------



## MamatYoSekmat

sanekn said:


> Hello, in theory you can use leds on some walls and on some walls just mirrors to reflect the light. 365nm is recomended for dreve fotoplast. I've tried to make shells with 395nm led strips for a long time, but it gave me uneven shells with holes sometimes. Frustrating. Personally i've just purcahsed 4 10w 365nm leds from ali, gotta see how it turns out.
> But let's confirm with some pros here what is the optimal wavelegth.






4 seeds = $ 60.33 The price is the same as my salary for 1 week


----------



## sanekn

MamatYoSekmat said:


> 4 seeds = $ 60.33 The price is the same as my salary for 1 week


I found some 10w units on ali for 10 bucks with drivers.


----------



## Farquarl

MamatYoSekmat said:


> Hi guys, all this time I've been curing resin using a UV led nail lamp, and it's hard to make a photoflash, I don't know how much NM, and I want to make a UV chamber with 6 side lights with a timer module for photoflash, which is better 365nm / 395nm  ?  Considering that 365nm is more expensive than 395nm, is 365nm better for Uv resin?


It depends on the photoinitiator used in the resin. 405nm and 365nm are common wavelengths. Some resins use more than one photoinitiator and can be cured with a wider band of wavelengths.


----------



## mattmatt

sanekn said:


> I found some 10w units on ali for 10 bucks with drivers.


Ooh, can you leave a link?


----------



## MamatYoSekmat

mattmatt said:


> Ooh, can you leave a link?


https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33041761467.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.75884c4dbvWPT3


----------



## sanekn

mattmatt said:


> Ooh, can you leave a link?


Can confirm, this link higher is the one!


----------



## MamatYoSekmat

sanekn said:


> Can confirm, this link higher is the one!


Here it is open source


----------



## raygunraymond

howdy yall
almost done with my first ciem 
working on the faceplate right now and so my question is:
How can I put the circuit board holding the zobel into the faceplate with fotoplast?
i put the zobel on a small board (will fit, already checked) and would like it to be within the resin of the faceplate.
would i be able to suspend the board in the middle of curing resin or would i have to do this in layers?


----------



## mattmatt

raygunraymond said:


> howdy yall
> almost done with my first ciem
> working on the faceplate right now and so my question is:
> How can I put the circuit board holding the zobel into the faceplate with fotoplast?
> ...


Do you want it as aesthetic design?


----------



## raygunraymond

mattmatt said:


> Do you want it as aesthetic design?


yes


----------



## raygunraymond

anyone try using a vacuum to get bubbles out of negative molds?


----------



## mattmatt

raygunraymond said:


> yes


If you want it to look great, you should embed it directly to the resin. 

Can you show me a photo of the PC so I can plan it out properly?


----------



## mattmatt

raygunraymond said:


> yes


I never had problem my mold having bubbles. How do you melt yours?


----------



## eunice

raygunraymond said:


> anyone try using a vacuum to get bubbles out of negative molds?


As counterintuitive as it might be a vacuum might even increase the amount of bubbles :


----------



## raygunraymond

mattmatt said:


> I never had problem my mold having bubbles. How do you melt yours?



ill get maybe 1 small bubble once in a while
i use a wax melter 



eunice said:


> As counterintuitive as it might be a vacuum might even increase the amount of bubbles :




do you know how krystalloid would react?


----------



## eunice

raygunraymond said:


> ill get maybe 1 small bubble once in a while
> i use a wax melter
> 
> do you know how krystalloid would react?


No. But I never have problems with bubbles, sometimes there is one or two bubbles and if so I simply remove them with a piece of wire.
If you work to quick with fotoplast bubbles are more annoying - but they can be fixed by simply sanding them open and filling up with some more resin. It’s a bit tedious but not a big problem for me.


----------



## GourmetEnte

eunice said:


> As counterintuitive as it might be a vacuum might even increase the amount of bubbles :



If you want to get rid of bubbles in a mold, a pressure pot would be recommendable.


----------



## Farquarl

GourmetEnte said:


> If you want to get rid of bubbles in a mold, a pressure pot would be recommendable.


But if you compress your agar agar or whatever you use. Wouldn't you alter the shape of the mold? Such a soft material will form under such pressure wouldn't it?


----------



## GourmetEnte

Farquarl said:


> But if you compress your agar agar or whatever you use. Wouldn't you alter the shape of the mold? Such a soft material will form under such pressure wouldn't it?


Yeah, I forgot to mention that. I personally only use silicone to make my molds.


----------



## catlord (Feb 7, 2020)

Got those done today by an audiologist, how far should I trim them? Also do you recommend a more flexible or rigid material for shells? (filoalfa medical flex pla or colorfabb ngen flex for flex or smartfill clear biocompatible petg)


----------



## Bassiklee

Left one doesn’t look deep enough


----------



## catlord

Bassiklee said:


> Left one doesn’t look deep enough


It's a bit shorter but it looks even more so because the right one has more material on the bottom, I don't have a caliper right now but it's not much shorter


----------



## catlord

catlord said:


> It's a bit shorter but it looks even more so because the right one has more material on the bottom, I don't have a caliper right now but it's not much shorter


It seems like it didn't reach the otoblock, I'll try and have that one redone, not sure when tho, thanks


----------



## catlord

Bassiklee said:


> Left one doesn’t look deep enough


The other one is ok or should I get both redone? to my untrained eye it seems quite good


----------



## raygunraymond

GourmetEnte said:


> Yeah, I forgot to mention that. I personally only use silicone to make my molds.



oh i forgot about that
but i have seen a devel video on here (cant find the page) and it looks like theres a pressure pot used.
i remember  seeing a professional dip a silicone mold into wax then put what looked like a agar based investment into a devel branded heated vacuum chamber then pulled out a bubble free hardened investment.


----------



## mattmatt

Was


GourmetEnte said:


> Yeah, I forgot to mention that. I personally only use silicone to make my molds.


Ooh, what silicone are you using?


----------



## mattmatt

raygunraymond said:


> oh i forgot about that
> but i have seen a devel video on here (cant find the page) and it looks like theres a pressure pot used.
> i remember  seeing a professional dip a silicone mold into wax then put what looked like a agar based investment into a devel branded heated vacuum chamber then pulled out a bubble free hardened investment.


Probably the westone video.


----------



## Farquarl (Feb 8, 2020)

catlord said:


> The other one is ok or should I get both redone? to my untrained eye it seems quite good


I think you can use both. The one on the left is full until the second bend that´s where you cut anyways. The seal happens below that point so i don´t see any problem with the impression.

Can anyone tell me why my RC lowpass filter produces a result like that?
Below you see the yellow line which is a highpass. The same driver just with the  capacitor and resistor switched results in the green line.
R=1kOhm C=4,7uF so cutoff should be somewhere between 30-50Hz.




Edit: Nevermind! Stupid me put a 103 smd resistor in (10kOhm) which results in a 3Hz cutoff frequency. But still it is weird that there is so much high frequencys coming through.


----------



## catlord

Farquarl said:


> I think you can use both. The one on the left is full until the second bend that´s where you cut anyways. The seal happens below that point so i don´t see any problem with the impression.
> 
> Can anyone tell me why my RC lowpass filter produces a result like that?
> Below you see the yellow line which is a highpass. The same driver just with the  capacitor and resistor switched results in the green line.
> ...


So I'm fine with just cutting both past second bend? Or should I leave some extra channel lenght? It's my first time doing that so I don't really know what to do for trimming


----------



## Farquarl

catlord said:


> So I'm fine with just cutting both past second bend? Or should I leave some extra channel lenght? It's my first time doing that so I don't really know what to do for trimming



After the second bend is a direct line of sight/sound to the eardrum. Just cut it that the plane of the cut points in the direction the second bend takes and you are good.


----------



## Elashri (Feb 9, 2020)

if i building a pair of CIEM in the method of Shell and Faceplate,
Do i need to Glue the drivers in place?
and do the filled ear canal covors the filters?
Can i use alcohol based dye on clear resin to get translusent color?


----------



## catlord

Farquarl said:


> After the second bend is a direct line of sight/sound to the eardrum. Just cut it that the plane of the cut points in the direction the second bend takes and you are good.


Thank you!


----------



## catlord

Elashri said:


> if i building a pair of CIEM in the method of Shell and Faceplate,
> Do i need to Glue the drivers in place?
> and do the filled ear canal covors the filters?
> Can i use alcohol based dye on clear resin to get translusent color?


You should checck the MSDS of said dyes, some are quite corrosive/irritant/reactive, alcohol based dye only means that it has a certain polarity, given the quantity it'd probably be fine but it might react with the resin (if it's not made for the resin you're using) so you're better off by checking the MSDS of both products and asking the seller/manifacturer for which dyes can be used for your specific application , some might be nonreactive to the resin but unsafe for skin contact


----------



## gregeagle

hey guys….
Need some help on those impressions….. a friend wants bs6 in those Shells....
how would you handle Sound tubes.... kinking problems?? not enough space for 2x3mm?  would you only drill 2 holes in the end for Soundtubes as i allways did...or make a bigger hole for the 2 tubes and finish with fotoplast????

( I know that the Impression has some ugly parts...thats why i redid them and made Shells of the good ones)
Thanks for your help


----------



## wardy

gregeagle said:


> hey guys….
> Need some help on those impressions….. a friend wants bs6 in those Shells....
> how would you handle Sound tubes.... kinking problems?? not enough space for 2x3mm?  would you only drill 2 holes in the end for Soundtubes as i allways did...or make a bigger hole for the 2 tubes and finish with fotoplast????
> 
> ...



I would have started with making the shell as thin as possible to make it easier to do the tubing(then once in put a bit or resin to reinforce the tip  I would do one port and then finish with fotoplast it looks doable!


----------



## GourmetEnte

mattmatt said:


> Was
> 
> Ooh, what silicone are you using?


I've been using silicone from a company called "trollfactory" I believe that you can buy it on Amazon, I'm from Germany however, so I'm uncertain of availability in different parts of the world.


----------



## GourmetEnte

Hey. I've been trying to decide upon which midrange driver to use in combination with SWFK-32254-000.
Either the ED 29869 or 28UAP01.
Has anyone utilized them in said config, or has general experience with either driver? My low-end driver would be a Tesla driver, 8mm, from 0Hz-180Hz, optimally.


----------



## Farquarl

Found a nice way to organize capacitors, resistors and dampers. Just search for 1,5ml reaction vials.


----------



## emil2099

Back to vent holes guys. Would you recommend drilling them through the shell next to the tubes? How about in one of the tubes themselves? Seems like this may be easier to execute more consistently and will prevent the vent from clogging (ear wax etc), but I am sure there would be acoustic reasons why it’s not a good idea. Thoughts?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Farquarl said:


> I think you can use both. The one on the left is full until the second bend that´s where you cut anyways. The seal happens below that point so i don´t see any problem with the impression.
> 
> Can anyone tell me why my RC lowpass filter produces a result like that?
> Below you see the yellow line which is a highpass. The same driver just with the  capacitor and resistor switched results in the green line.
> ...


Try increasing cap and reducing resistor for better result. The resistor also works as an attenuation system also


----------



## Farquarl (Feb 12, 2020)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Try increasing cap and reducing resistor for better result. The resistor also works as an attenuation system also


Hey yes, i tried that as well and you are right it works much better. Im ordering new capacitors with 100uF so i can use a smaller resistor. Im also ordering some smd inductors from which i know are traditionally not used with BA drivers but i figured its worth a try.
Another Question i wanted to ask is:
*Do you guys use a compensation curve for measuring frequency response?* There is something called open ear gain which is the natural resonance of the outer ear canal. In short it increases the area around 3khz. If you put a CIEM in your ear this effect wont take place and you need to compansate for that.
Im sure the most of you know this im just explaining because maybe there are a few who don´t know that.
Here is an extract of an wikipeadia article about this topic:

*Insertion gain*
The traditional method of real ear measurement is known as insertion gain, which is the difference between the sound pressure level measured near the ear drum with a hearing aid in place, and the sound pressure level measured in the unaided ear. First a measurement is made with the probe tube in the open ear (Real Ear Unaided Response, or REUR), then a second one is made using the same test signal with the hearing aid in place and turned on (Real Ear Aided Response, or REAR).  The difference between these two results is the insertion gain. This gain can be matched to targets produced by various prescriptive formula based on the patient's audiogram or individual hearing loss.[9]

Another interesting read: Article





I know a audiogolist who can measure the real ear with an in situ microphone. Wouldn´t it be possible to measure someones ear and take that curve to compansate in ARTA. You could than presumably achieve a more flat/linear response?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Farquarl said:


> Hey yes, i tried that as well and you are right it works much better. Im ordering new capacitors with 100uF so i can use a smaller resistor. Im also ordering some smd inductors from which i know are traditionally not used with BA drivers but i figured its worth a try.
> Another Question i wanted to ask is:
> *Do you guys use a compensation curve for measuring frequency response?* There is something called open ear gain which is the natural resonance of the outer ear canal. In short it increases the area around 3khz. If you put a CIEM in your ear this effect wont take place and you need to compansate for that.
> Im sure the most of you know this im just explaining because maybe there are a few who don´t know that.
> ...


Nuraphone
With internal mic

It does the same thing


----------



## Farquarl

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Nuraphone
> With internal mic
> 
> It does the same thing


Ah cool, so it is viable. Are you using the Harman curve to compensate? If yes where do I get it?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Farquarl said:


> Ah cool, so it is viable. Are you using the Harman curve to compensate? If yes where do I get it?


Its a headphone which uses a mic to measure your ear canal resonance and hair cell low sensitive region of frequency and tune headphone according to that

You can find the patent

Search nuraphone headphone on google


----------



## ANDRU2791

Guys, tell me if the Assembly uses a driver with a vented hole, whether you need to drill compensation holes in the earphone case, if so, what diameter.


----------



## Xymordos

ANDRU2791 said:


> Guys, tell me if the Assembly uses a driver with a vented hole, whether you need to drill compensation holes in the earphone case, if so, what diameter.



Depends on which driver you're using. If it's a BA then probably not. If it's a dynamic then yes.


----------



## SupperTime

Didn't know where to post this but these are my custom plugs, and I need to repair this section with anything to hold the screw/rope.  It's silicone, how can I fix this


----------



## Farquarl

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Its a headphone which uses a mic to measure your ear canal resonance and hair cell low sensitive region of frequency and tune headphone according to that
> 
> You can find the patent
> 
> Search nuraphone headphone on google


You are not reading my comments correctly .
I found the .txt file for the Harman target response curve. Now I can use it as an compensation curve in ARTA.
Thanks anyway!


----------



## Xymordos

Farquarl said:


> You are not reading my comments correctly .
> I found the .txt file for the Harman target response curve. Now I can use it as an compensation curve in ARTA.
> Thanks anyway!



Personally I wouldn't do that since the Harman curve is a subjective curve (using it as reference is fine IMO). I would listen to the IEM while making it and see what is my own preferred curve.


----------



## Farquarl

Xymordos said:


> Personally I wouldn't do that since the Harman curve is a subjective curve (using it as reference is fine IMO). I would listen to the IEM while making it and see what is my own preferred curve.


Yes ofc, but it is the most scientific thing to a "flat" response that there is. So that is a good starting point. Unless you tell me it's not.


----------



## raygunraymond

For those who polish,

What polish do yall use? Hows the polish on westone's site? What about the whole biocompatible thing, is that something I should worry about when it comes to polish?
What tools exactly do yall use? Links/specification is appreciated.
This inside is kinda hard to grind, any tips or techniques?


----------



## mattmatt

Hey guys, just wondering on your thoughts about this. 

What affects soundstage, imaging and depth? 

What should we consider to excel and this aspects. Getting a desired frequency response, target curve is one thing but getting those is something that can't be shown thru FR.


----------



## eunice

Impulse response and phase stability is what you need for sound stage. You can fake a bit of soundstage with a peak at around 4khz but other than that you need Impulse response and phase stability.


----------



## mattmatt

eunice said:


> Impulse response and phase stability is what you need for sound stage. You can fake a bit of soundstage with a peak at around 4khz but other than that you need Impulse response and phase stability.


What should I get and how would I measure?


----------



## eunice

mattmatt said:


> What should I get and how would I measure?


I use an umik usb measurement microphone and RoomEqWizard. But I have not found a way to make these waterfall impulse response graphs - they are best to measure soundstage as you can see the impulse response over different frequencies at one glance.


----------



## Farquarl

eunice said:


> I use an umik usb measurement microphone and RoomEqWizard. But I have not found a way to make these waterfall impulse response graphs - they are best to measure soundstage as you can see the impulse response over different frequencies at one glance.


ARTA has this function.


----------



## mattmatt

What should I look at? Or any good materials I can read?


----------



## eunice

mattmatt said:


> What should I look at? Or any good materials I can read?


The way I did it is I measured each and every crappy IEM I got hold off and tried to match the graphs I see with the subjective impression of the IEM.
Not very scientific, but it helps a little to get a gut feeling.
Mostly I measure not to judge sound quality but for quality control, e.g. if left and right measure differently then something is off.


----------



## Xymordos

Farquarl said:


> Yes ofc, but it is the most scientific thing to a "flat" response that there is. So that is a good starting point. Unless you tell me it's not.



Yeah it is a good starting point, then you can tweak it from there to your liking afterwards


----------



## Lucas Taboada

To the people that have build a BS6 with zobel:

I'm getting pretty harsh sound around 2-4khz and a little peak around 7khz I guess, and the bass is too present sometimes, like that "boom" sound with undefined low end, I'm not getting a detailed sound.
I'm using the Eunice recipe by the way, 14mm tube length, 2 tubes and white and orange damper. What should I do? increase both dampers? Or use just one tube for all the drivers? Any thoughts?


----------



## mattmatt (Feb 17, 2020)

Anyway, here's another build. Hope you guys also posts photos of your recent builds!


----------



## Cevisi

mattmatt said:


> Anyway, here's another build for a client


Wow nice is this a full cast 

Looks like there are no tubes did you cast the tubes ?


----------



## Xymordos

mattmatt said:


> Anyway, here's another build for a client



Love the neatness.


----------



## Hentype

mattmatt said:


> Anyway, here's another build for a client



Those look amazing man, great job!


----------



## mattmatt

Cevisi said:


> Wow nice is this a full cast
> 
> Looks like there are no tubes did you cast the tubes ?


Nope. Hollow shell with tubes. Standard built. 



Xymordos said:


> Love the neatness.


Thaaanks, man! Still want it better tho. 



Hentype said:


> Those look amazing man, great job!


Thank you so much!


----------



## GourmetEnte

mattmatt said:


> Anyway, here's another build for a client


Did you use waterslide decals on the faceplate? Looks amazing. Makes me regret that I didn't make a clear shell.


----------



## Xymordos

mattmatt said:


> Nope. Hollow shell with tubes. Standard built.
> 
> 
> Thaaanks, man! Still want it better tho.
> ...



I literally just stuff all the components and wires in and hope it doesn't short LOL


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Lucas Taboada said:


> To the people that have build a BS6 with zobel:
> 
> I'm getting pretty harsh sound around 2-4khz and a little peak around 7khz I guess, and the bass is too present sometimes, like that "boom" sound with undefined low end, I'm not getting a detailed sound.
> I'm using the Eunice recipe by the way, 14mm tube length, 2 tubes and white and orange damper. What should I do? increase both dampers? Or use just one tube for all the drivers? Any thoughts?


Increase white to brown and orangen to red.


----------



## Lucas Taboada (Feb 17, 2020)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Increase white to brown and orangen to red.



Thanks! decreasing orange to red wouldn't cause more peaks? I tried increasing the white (highs) to green to see if would solve it but its still harsh, I will try your suggestion but I'm a bit worried because everyone seems to love the BS6+Z recipe.

Here's a EQ curve that I've did trying to find/solve the problems:


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Lucas Taboada said:


> Thanks! decreasing orange to red wouldn't cause more peaks? I tried increasing the white (highs) to green to see if would solve it but its still harsh, I will try your suggestion but I'm a bit worried because everyone seems to love the BS6+Z recipe.
> 
> Here's a EQ curve that I've did trying to find/solve the problems:


Try MASM 7Z 
And TWFK with green
DTEC with red


----------



## mattmatt

Xymordos said:


> I literally just stuff all the components and wires in and hope it doesn't short LOL


Show your builds man, It's been way long since you posted a photo  



GourmetEnte said:


> Did you use waterslide decals on the faceplate? Looks amazing. Makes me regret that I didn't make a clear shell.


Nope, they're engraved


----------



## Kulgrinda

Lucas Taboada said:


> Thanks! decreasing orange to red wouldn't cause more peaks? I tried increasing the white (highs) to green to see if would solve it but its still harsh, I will try your suggestion but I'm a bit worried because everyone seems to love the BS6+Z recipe.
> 
> Here's a EQ curve that I've did trying to find/solve the problems:


Not everyone, I do not enjoy this setup. White/grey too harsh, green makes soundstage too narrow. Also it is the only driver I managed to break. And it was the most expensive one. I'm still looking for a good setup for this driver.


----------



## ForceMajeure

mattmatt said:


> Show your builds man, It's been way long since you posted a photo
> 
> 
> Nope, they're engraved



What laser are you using?


----------



## mattmatt

ForceMajeure said:


> What laser are you using?


Some chinese 1.5w laser. Will be building another one in the future. Will post the how it's done and materials.


----------



## eunice

Lucas Taboada said:


> To the people that have build a BS6 with zobel:
> 
> I'm getting pretty harsh sound around 2-4khz and a little peak around 7khz I guess, and the bass is too present sometimes, like that "boom" sound with undefined low end, I'm not getting a detailed sound.
> I'm using the Eunice recipe by the way, 14mm tube length, 2 tubes and white and orange damper. What should I do? increase both dampers? Or use just one tube for all the drivers? Any thoughts?


If you want to decrease 2-4khz you can switch to a yellow damper for the low end. The slight peak at 7khz I have too but neither the boomy sound nor the harsh sound, at least not if you compare to other BA IEM. What source are you using to drive it?


----------



## Lucas Taboada

eunice said:


> If you want to decrease 2-4khz you can switch to a yellow damper for the low end. The slight peak at 7khz I have too but neither the boomy sound nor the harsh sound, at least not if you compare to other BA IEM. What source are you using to drive it?



Thanks for helping! the boomy sound I believe it was a fit problem with an universal shell, It seems better in a custom shell. but the harsh sound is definitely there. My main use for in ears is for playing live shows and tracking in the studio, so I tested primarily with my macbook pro and then with the sennheiser ew300 wireless system.


----------



## eunice

Lucas Taboada said:


> Thanks for helping! the boomy sound I believe it was a fit problem with an universal shell, It seems better in a custom shell. but the harsh sound is definitely there. My main use for in ears is for playing live shows and tracking in the studio, so I tested primarily with my macbook pro and then with the sennheiser ew300 wireless system.


In  an universal shell you probably want to use shorter tubes as they do not insert that deep into the ear.
The Macbook output does indeed sound a bit harsh for me. I get good results with a dragonfly black. But maybe you can plug it in some equipment at the studio and check if there is a difference.


----------



## Lucas Taboada

eunice said:


> In  an universal shell you probably want to use shorter tubes as they do not insert that deep into the ear.
> The Macbook output does indeed sound a bit harsh for me. I get good results with a dragonfly black. But maybe you can plug it in some equipment at the studio and check if there is a difference.



I don't think there's a lot of difference in sound with the macbook output and studio interfaces, the difference tends to be more distortion in my opinion. I normally use my Sennheiser HD650 between interfaces/my macbook and the sound doesn't change that much (maybe a little, but my corrective EQ for BS6 would be like -6db notch at 2-4khz and -3db at 7khz)

Anyway, I'll do some more tests and will try to measure my BS6+z to post here. Thanks!


----------



## eunice

You can't compare the HD650 to the BAs, the HD650 draws a lot more power which tends to smooth out the response of the audio interface a lot. The BA are so sensitive that they tend to sound completely different. Most audio-interface expect a certain load, the HD650 gives that but the BA does not. All the FiiO DAC for example are awful with most BAs.


----------



## Cevisi

Th


Lucas Taboada said:


> I don't think there's a lot of difference in sound with the macbook output and studio interfaces, the difference tends to be more distortion in my opinion. I normally use my Sennheiser HD650 between interfaces/my macbook and the sound doesn't change that much (maybe a little, but my corrective EQ for BS6 would be like -6db notch at 2-4khz and -3db at 7khz)
> 
> Anyway, I'll do some more tests and will try to measure my BS6+z to post here. Thanks!



The hd650 is pretty flat whit a sub bass roll off and and no peaks in the high and the mids are very forward

Bs6z has a flat bass response but still 5 more then the hd650

Ba are a lot of harsher in after 4k frequency

I think your problems are that you are not accustomed to the tuning of the bs6z

Maybe you should give it more time for brain burn in

I have the same issue like you when i switch after a few weeks of just dd to ba that the ba sound pretty boomy and harsh to me

I need at least a few hours till everything settle in for my ear

Ps. When i switch from a long time just ba to dd the dd sounds pretty low resolving whit too recressed highs whit pretty thick base


----------



## eunice

Cevisi said:


> Ps. When i switch from a long time just ba to dd the dd sounds pretty low resolving whit too recressed highs whit pretty thick base


I second that. It’s not comparable.
I’ll love to have something that is as warm and relaxed sounding as an HD650 but still has the clarity and resolution of a BA. Since I have the Topping DXS7 the hd650 Sound again better than my CIEMs. 
Oh well, guess that’s a never ending hobby


----------



## Cevisi

eunice said:


> I second that. It’s not comparable.
> I’ll love to have something that is as warm and relaxed sounding as an HD650 but still has the clarity and resolution of a BA. Since I have the Topping DXS7 the hd650 Sound again better than my CIEMs.
> Oh well, guess that’s a never ending hobby


Did you ever listen to dlc drivers they are pretty good resolving

I am looking for the same as you relaxed warm but good resolving maybe a hybrid iem like moondrop blessing 2


----------



## SupperTime

Where or how to I buy or make cheapest custom mold Ear plugs for work?


----------



## eunice

SupperTime said:


> Where or how to I buy or make cheapest custom mold Ear plugs for work?


If you want custom molded headphones go to https://thecustomart.com/ you can’t make them cheaper at home. If you just want ear plugs this is the wrong thread. Search ‚Proguard MYO‘ on Amazon.


----------



## piotrus-g

SupperTime said:


> Where or how to I buy or make cheapest custom mold Ear plugs for work?





eunice said:


> If you want custom molded headphones go to https://thecustomart.com/ you can’t make them cheaper at home. If you just want ear plugs this is the wrong thread. Search ‚Proguard MYO‘ on Amazon.


Thanks for referring us. Yes, we can do plugs https://thecustomart.com/shop/silicone-products/silicone-earplugs/


----------



## Cevisi

Any ideas for a single rab 32063 build

I wanted to go 12mm tube 2mm whit green filter at 10mm


----------



## Xymordos (Feb 21, 2020)

Well after a very long time I finally finished a new build. This time it is a Tri-brid, but not the usual type. I think this is a world first Tri-brid which uses dynamic drivers, planar dynamic drivers, and balanced armature drivers.

Driver config (total of 7 drivers)
Bass: 2x 6mm dynamic drivers in push push configuration
Full range: 1x 10mm planar dynamic driver
Treble: DEA5128 (eAudio's driver, I believe it is equivalent to a Sonion 2800)
Super tweeter: SWFK31736

For faceplate I used dyed wood (the blue and purple bits). For one side I sprinkled some gold dust on it. The other side had a piece of shell engraved into the wood, which was simple but looked quite nice.

The drivers were actually too big and the dynamics stuck out a bit, took a lot of effort to seal the IEM. The IEM had to be vented, and 5 holes were drilled into the shell in order to have sufficient venting.



Spoiler: Pictures of shell and insides

















I aimed to get very deep bass that would not bleed into the mids. Ended up with this curve. You get really big and deep bass but vocals remain crystal clear. Highs are not sharp at all despite that peak. Overall you get a very clear sound with big bass.

Unfortunately the planar dynamic driver was not well matched out of the factory (strangely), and I had to manually tune it, which resulted in the variation between left and right driver. Impedance was quite flat, which is desired.



Spoiler: Measurements



Frequency Response



Impedance and Phase:






Overall a very tough project (especially trying to match the planar drivers!) that ended up sounding excellent.


----------



## eunice

Chapeau. That is an achievement! I wish you a lot of joy with them.


----------



## Cevisi

Xymordos said:


> Well after a very long time I finally finished a new build. This time it is a Tri-brid, but not the usual type. I think this is a world first Tri-brid which uses dynamic drivers, planar dynamic drivers, and balanced armature drivers.
> 
> Driver config (total of 7 drivers)
> Bass: 2x 6mm dynamic drivers in push push configuration
> ...


Wow i am shocked by the look of the internals very skillfull


----------



## Bassiklee

Looks like Soundlink isn't carrying Bellsing anymore.  I've reached out to make sure.  I'll post their reply.


----------



## Cevisi

Bassiklee said:


> Looks like Soundlink isn't carrying Bellsing anymore.  I've reached out to make sure.  I'll post their reply.


screw there was a lawsuit by knowles against bellsing i think they lost 

I have one pair 10013 left i should use it wisley


----------



## Bassiklee

Yeah,  that's what I figured.  I have two of the 6 driver assemblies,  plus some TWFK and CI stuff from them.  What to do.....


----------



## Farquarl (Feb 22, 2020)

Bassiklee said:


> Looks like Soundlink isn't carrying Bellsing anymore.  I've reached out to make sure.  I'll post their reply.


That happend last year as well, after a short while they were avaible again. Lets hope that this time is the same.

Edit: Oh that doesn´t sound good what you guys are saying.


----------



## TOBIJampar

They told me, that they aren't able to sell bellsing drivers to the US because they are "agents" of Knowles.
That is why they removed them from their shop.
But if you live outside of the US, they might be able to sell it to you if you contact them.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Xymordos said:


> Well after a very long time I finally finished a new build. This time it is a Tri-brid, but not the usual type. I think this is a world first Tri-brid which uses dynamic drivers, planar dynamic drivers, and balanced armature drivers.
> 
> Driver config (total of 7 drivers)
> Bass: 2x 6mm dynamic drivers in push push configuration
> ...


Finally you uploaded it

Hahahha

I was waiting for the real banger


----------



## mattmatt

Xymordos said:


> Well after a very long time I finally finished a new build. This time it is a Tri-brid, but not the usual type. I think this is a world first Tri-brid which uses dynamic drivers, planar dynamic drivers, and balanced armature drivers.
> 
> Driver config (total of 7 drivers)
> Bass: 2x 6mm dynamic drivers in push push configuration
> ...


How you jammed those in is way beyond me!

Great job man! I envy you so much! 

Anyway, side question. What interface and mic do you use?


----------



## Cevisi

Today i was able to listen to my first build

Rab 23063 12mm id 2mm tube whit 2mm 1mm id adapter on the nozzel and green filter at 10 mm

Tuning sound ok but it lacks of resolution and details. Stage is awesome

How do you guys make the faceplate should i drip resin on a glass plate and let it cure to create a plate ?


----------



## GourmetEnte

Cevisi said:


> How do you guys make the faceplate should i drip resin on a glass plate and let it cure to create a plate ?



Yeah, that's how I do it. But I usually use a rubber ring that's glued on top of a sheet of plastic as a mold if I want it to be thicker.


----------



## Cevisi (Feb 22, 2020)

GourmetEnte said:


> Yeah, that's how I do it. But I usually use a rubber ring that's glued on top of a sheet of plastic as a mold if I want it to be thicker.


Nice trick thanks


----------



## Cevisi

GourmetEnte said:


> Yeah, that's how I do it. But I usually use a rubber ring that's glued on top of a sheet of plastic as a mold if I want it to be thicker.


It worked thanks

I wanted to create a galaxy but instead it come out as a rose for the second one i used half of the dye its still to much but i like how it come out


----------



## Xymordos

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Finally you uploaded it
> 
> Hahahha
> 
> I was waiting for the real banger



Yeah I didn't have time to polish the shell until a while later, hence the late post


----------



## Xymordos (Feb 23, 2020)

mattmatt said:


> How you jammed those in is way beyond me!
> 
> Great job man! I envy you so much!
> 
> Anyway, side question. What interface and mic do you use?



Just the Taobao IEC711 with the shop's sound card. Gonna shop for a THX amp instead of the sound card as it will be more accurate.

For face plate I usually drip a little onto a flat surface cure it, then resin the IEM onto the face plate before peeling it off. If I want to do wood or other materials I just glue it onto the resin face plate.


----------



## mattmatt

Xymordos said:


> Just the Taobao IEC711 with the shop's sound card. Gonna shop for a THX amp instead of the sound card as it will be more accurate.
> 
> For face plate I usually drip a little onto a flat surface cure it, then resin the IEM onto the face plate before peeling it off. If I want to do wood or other materials I just glue it onto the resin face plate.


May I ask about your impedance jig? Still not sure how to do mine with my interface hahaha! Yes i'm stupid. (((


----------



## Xymordos

mattmatt said:


> May I ask about your impedance jig? Still not sure how to do mine with my interface hahaha! Yes i'm stupid. (((



I use the one pre-built from the shop as it was dirt cheap and saves me the hassle. What's your one like?


----------



## mattmatt

Xymordos said:


> I use the one pre-built from the shop as it was dirt cheap and saves me the hassle. What's your one like?


Focusrite Scarlett Solo ehehehe


----------



## Cevisi

Someone know where to get these on ali they are no mor avalible 

I want to use them as dynamic driver mount for custom shells 

I ordered one with driver already mounted on it but i need empty ones to put in higher quality drivers in it


----------



## Xymordos

mattmatt said:


> Focusrite Scarlett Solo ehehehe



Not sure how that measures. I have a ESi U22XT sound card and the headphone amp isn't flat, which annoyed me a lot :\

I'm not sure how to construct your own impedance testing rig, if you have access to Taobao, just buy one off it.


----------



## Xymordos

Cevisi said:


> Someone know where to get these on ali they are no mor avalible
> 
> I want to use them as dynamic driver mount for custom shells
> 
> I ordered one with driver already mounted on it but i need empty ones to put in higher quality drivers in it



I can find them on Taobao, but I'm not sure how the items on Taobao translate to Aliexpress. Are they the same?


----------



## Cevisi

Xymordos said:


> I can find them on Taobao, but I'm not sure how the items on Taobao translate to Aliexpress. Are they the same?


Maybe i have no experience whit tabaoo what did you searh for ?

Thanks


----------



## kmmm

I wold like to try using a DD in combination with something like a HODVTEC and TWFK. But I have no idea where to start. What DD to use. How should I incorporate it? Any ideas? Or have anyone tried something similar with different drivers?


----------



## mattmatt

Still not happy how it turned out but hey, looks cute too.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

mattmatt said:


> Still not happy how it turned out but hey, looks cute too.


Your earcanal shape or the iem colour scheme

Hahahhaha

Both are cute


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Feb 24, 2020)

kmmm said:


> I wold like to try using a DD in combination with something like a HODVTEC and TWFK. But I have no idea where to start. What DD to use. How should I incorporate it? Any ideas? Or have anyone tried something similar with different drivers?


DD + HODVTEC + TWFK

Nice idea

Hehe he he he

Wanna build something

Wire HODVTEC in series(internally)
Series the HODVTEC with DD

You get a high impeding bass driver


Somehow find a TWFK31082 

Now... Add 100uF to woofer in lowpass
And yellow damper
@Xymordos method of low pass

No cross on TWFK31082
No damper here


And see it rumble and act like super low distortion driver

Tube is your choice


----------



## dhruvmeena96

DD + HODVTEC + TWFK

Nice idea

Hehe he he he

Wanna build something

Wire HODVTEC in series(internally)
Series the HODVTEC with DD

You get a high impeding bass driver


Somehow find a TWFK31082 

Now... Add 100uF to woofer in lowpass
And yellow damper
@Xymordos method of low pass

No cross on TWFK31082
No damper too

Done

And see it rumble and act like super low distortion driver while having nice treble and resolution without peaks


Tube is your choice

Dual post

Admin please remove it


----------



## Farquarl

I recreated the JH audio test plate which you can see in the freqphase video. I have to say it's a pretty handy way of testing.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Farquarl said:


> I recreated the JH audio test plate which you can see in the freqphase video. I have to say it's a pretty handy way of testing.


Can you share the 3D file pls


----------



## Xymordos

Farquarl said:


> I recreated the JH audio test plate which you can see in the freqphase video. I have to say it's a pretty handy way of testing.



What does this actually do? o.O


----------



## Xymordos

mattmatt said:


> Still not happy how it turned out but hey, looks cute too.



That looks really cool, would be super cool if its purple + blue. You mixed glitter into the shell?


----------



## mattmatt

Xymordos said:


> That looks really cool, would be super cool if its purple + blue. You mixed glitter into the shell?


Indeed it would be but a friend requested this.


----------



## kmmm

dhruvmeena96 said:


> DD + HODVTEC + TWFK
> 
> Nice idea
> 
> ...


Cool!
what DD to look for? I have no idea. Suggestions?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

kmmm said:


> Cool!
> what DD to look for? I have no idea. Suggestions?


Digikey CDM 12008 driver

I think I can't attach the PDF

Made by CUI


Dont go with datasheet frequency response..

Its done in open air


----------



## Themilkman46290

Cevisi said:


> Someone know where to get these on ali they are no mor avalible
> 
> I want to use them as dynamic driver mount for custom shells
> 
> I ordered one with driver already mounted on it but i need empty ones to put in higher quality drivers in it


Hey if you didn't find it yet, check yuming store
To view 【284,50 грн.  14%OFF | 10 pcs Convex ring diy headphone unit speaker upgrade metal shell 7 8 9mm unit transfer 8 9 10mm ear shell】 on AliExpress with code #_dTbM2SH#, copy the whole sentence and open the app.


----------



## Xymordos

Themilkman46290 said:


> Hey if you didn't find it yet, check yuming store
> To view 【284,50 грн.  14%OFF | 10 pcs Convex ring diy headphone unit speaker upgrade metal shell 7 8 9mm unit transfer 8 9 10mm ear shell】 on AliExpress with code #_dTbM2SH#, copy the whole sentence and open the app.



Oh oops I forgot about this. Here are the Taobao links:
https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?sp...HuGW7D&id=547615435161&ns=1&abbucket=7#detail
https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1z10.3-c-s.w4002-18718753926.44.428117ebGNXbT5&id=583008947502
https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?sp...MpRI4H&id=546185765034&ns=1&abbucket=7#detail


----------



## Cevisi

Themilkman46290 said:


> Hey if you didn't find it yet, check yuming store
> To view 【284,50 грн.  14%OFF | 10 pcs Convex ring diy headphone unit speaker upgrade metal shell 7 8 9mm unit transfer 8 9 10mm ear shell】 on AliExpress with code #_dTbM2SH#, copy the whole sentence and open the app.


They are not available



Xymordos said:


> Oh oops I forgot about this. Here are the Taobao links:
> https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?sp...HuGW7D&id=547615435161&ns=1&abbucket=7#detail
> https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1z10.3-c-s.w4002-18718753926.44.428117ebGNXbT5&id=583008947502
> https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?sp...MpRI4H&id=546185765034&ns=1&abbucket=7#detail


Thanks


----------



## Themilkman46290

Cevisi said:


> They are not available
> 
> 
> Thanks


Strange, they are available for me.....


----------



## Farquarl

Themilkman46290 said:


> Strange, they are available for me.....


That's not strange at all, availability changes with the region.


----------



## Cevisi

Themilkman46290 said:


> Strange, they are available for me.....


Really maybe they are not available in germany. Will try it later on my laptop maybe its some device problems


----------



## pc27618349

Does anyone have any alternate sources for BS6 drivers (Bellsing 10013) other than the Soundlink store on Aliexpress? They seem to be out of stock


----------



## Bassiklee

They're not just out of stock. They have stopped carrying Bellsing drivers,  due to the lawsuit filed by Knowles.


----------



## pc27618349

Bassiklee said:


> They're not just out of stock. They have stopped carrying Bellsing drivers,  due to the lawsuit filed by Knowles.


Wow, I had no idea. No wonder they were so cheap


----------



## Bassiklee

That was the legit pricing. I think. They just had to stop selling them.  They might pop up somewhere else one of these days


----------



## Cevisi

Bassiklee said:


> They're not just out of stock. They have stopped carrying Bellsing drivers,  due to the lawsuit filed by Knowles.



Did soundlink them self say that ?


----------



## Cevisi

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Digikey CDM 12008 driver
> 
> I think I can't attach the PDF
> 
> ...




It say the frequency range is from 800-20000hz will it go lower when its closed in a shell ?

Is this a good dd at all for like 2 dollars ?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Cevisi said:


> It say the frequency range is from 800-20000hz will it go lower when its closed in a shell ?
> 
> Is this a good dd at all for like 2 dollars ?


That is open air measurement bro


----------



## Bassiklee

Cevisi said:


> Did soundlink them self say that ?




Yes.


----------



## Farquarl

Xymordos said:


> What does this actually do? o.O


Nothing really  it lets you connect drivers easy and quick and also always has the same insertion depth in you coupler.


dhruvmeena96 said:


> Can you share the 3D file pls


Sure 
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4181969


----------



## Themilkman46290

I talk to soundlink, they didn't say they stopped selling, they told me I could order, bellsing from them but I don't see it in there store, maybe they have stopped selling bellsing in the USA and some western countries but they said I can make an order and asked how many I would like when I asked about 10013


----------



## kmmm (Feb 29, 2020)

I have been building Ciem's for a while now. Mostly for my self, but some for my friends. The shell building, soldering and assembling goes like a breeze. But after reading through this thread and different papers a couple of times, I find the crossover part to be really hard. Maybe because I always struggled with math an physics in school. So my career took a completely different path. Any how. I'd really like to get a grip on this. And have been watching people working with crossover simulation software for speaker building. Suddenly It all became visual and I felt I could get a grip on it. I know about all the differences between speaker building and (C)IEM's.
But my questions are:
1) Is it's worth the effort getting in to those simulation softwares at all (like XSIM or VituixCAD), or is it too big of a difference?

If "Yes" then:
2) Could you use FRD/ZMA files from Knowles or Sonion and get a decent output? At least a "in the ballpark" result - before tubing and filtering?
3) Are the Fq/imp graphs from Knowles/Sonion reliable enough to be imported?
4) Could the Zobel filters these softwares calculate be correct for BA's?

Sorry for the noob questions.
I'll just get back to my shell building....


----------



## Farquarl

kmmm said:


> I have been building Ciem's for a while now. Mostly for my self, but some for my friends. The shell building, soldering and assembling goes like a breeze. But after reading through this thread and different papers a couple of times, I find the crossover part to be really hard. Maybe because I always struggled with math an physics in school. So my career took a completely different path. Any how. I'd really like to get a grip on this. And have been watching people working with crossover simulation software for speaker building. Suddenly It all became visual and I felt I could get a grip on it. I know about all the differences between speaker building and (C)IEM's.
> But my questions are:
> 1) Is it's worth the effort getting in to those simulation softwares at all (like XSIM or VituixCAD), or is it too big of a difference?
> 
> ...



Im interestedt in this as well and i would like to know how some of you measure phase aligment? What software can you use to show live phase response?


----------



## Farquarl

Printed two new shells. With a two sound bores and a notch for cerumen. These are just prototypes they are not polished lacquered or anything else.


----------



## Cevisi

Farquarl said:


> Printed two new shells. With a two sound bores and a notch for cerumen. These are just prototypes they are not polished lacquered or anything else.


Is this a sla print or fdm looks very nice. I was thinking my self to get a printer. How did you scan the impressions ?


----------



## Farquarl (Mar 1, 2020)

Cevisi said:


> Is this a sla print or fdm looks very nice. I was thinking my self to get a printer. How did you scan the impressions ?


I got lucky and bought a scanner for scanning impressions at eBay. This is an sla print.

Edit: Before i did that i scanned impressions using DAVID SLS with own hardware. Thats the only "cheap option" i can think of. But still sla printing the shells is quite an investment. You need a printer which is capable of printing biocompatable resin. These resins don´t have much photoinitiator in them so a LCD type printer won´t do. The resin itself is pretty expensive as well (350-40€/L).


----------



## Cevisi

Farquarl said:


> I got lucky and bought a scanner for scanning impressions at eBay. This is an sla print.


You are really lucky the printers are no problem. but getting a good scanner. And another question from where did you get medical resin or is it non medical and you laquer it afterwards whit lack3 or somthing ?


----------



## Farquarl

Cevisi said:


> You are really lucky the printers are no problem. but getting a good scanner. And another question from where did you get medical resin or is it non medical and you laquer it afterwards whit lack3 or somthing ?


Tbh i think the printers are a problem at least they are expensive as a 200€ LCD printer won´t cure the resin. I´m in contact with an audiogolist which orders this stuff for me. I will get Pro3dure resin in about a week. Someone wants a pair of monitors done and is paying for it. I´ll keep you posted if you are interestedt. I could also send you a small ammount of resin if you want to try it out.


----------



## Cevisi

Farquarl said:


> Tbh i think the printers are a problem at least they are expensive as a 200€ LCD printer won´t cure the resin. I´m in contact with an audiogolist which orders this stuff for me. I will get Pro3dure resin in about a week. Someone wants a pair of monitors done and is paying for it. I´ll keep you posted if you are interestedt. I could also send you a small ammount of resin if you want to try it out.


Wich printer are you using ?


----------



## Farquarl

Cevisi said:


> Wich printer are you using ?


Flashforge Hunter


----------



## Cevisi

Farquarl said:


> Flashforge Hunter


Okay thats a expensive one


----------



## Kulgrinda

Any suggestions for something good sounding with CI, Hodvtec, RAB, SR and double TWFKs salvaged from Belsing 6 driver bundle?


----------



## kmmm

is It possible to make masm7 with knowles drivers?...


----------



## MuZo2

https://audiofool.reviews/building-a-custom-in-ear-monitor/
nice process described..


----------



## Cevisi

Can somone please explain me what the difference between.

Longer Tube vs shorter Tube

And

Bigger diameter vs bmaller diameter

Thanks


----------



## et.haan

Cevisi said:


> Can somone please explain me what the difference between.
> 
> Longer Tube vs shorter Tube
> 
> ...


Longer tube, peaks shift left. Shorter, to the right. 

Bigger ID makes peaks flatter, raises the rest of the output to be louder. Smaller ID is peakier. Typically.


----------



## Farquarl

et.haan said:


> Longer tube, peaks shift left. Shorter, to the right.
> 
> Bigger ID makes peaks flatter, raises the rest of the output to be louder. Smaller ID is peakier. Typically.


Plus a small id tube with longer length acts as a lowpass.


----------



## Cevisi

et.haan said:


> Longer tube, peaks shift left. Shorter, to the right.
> 
> Bigger ID makes peaks flatter, raises the rest of the output to be louder. Smaller ID is peakier. Typically.


Thank you


----------



## Madmike1988

Someone have a set of bellsing 10013 for sale OR know how to get Them?


----------



## Cevisi

Madmike1988 said:


> Someone have a set of bellsing 10013 for sale OR know how to get Them?


Soundlink still sell them in china i think they send you some when you ask (and dont live in the us i think)


----------



## TOBIJampar

Madmike1988 said:


> Someone have a set of bellsing 10013 for sale OR know how to get Them?


If you don't live in the US, contact SoundLink. They might be able to send them to you even if they are no longer listed in the Shop.
Worked for me


----------



## Madmike1988

Cevisi said:


> Soundlink still sell them in china i think they send you some when you ask (and dont live in the us i think)


Thanks, in from Holland and contacted soundlink but they are out of stock they said!


----------



## Farquarl

Hey,
Does any one know a good Tipp to get a few dB more at 3khz? Without changing drivers.


----------



## Xymordos

Farquarl said:


> Hey,
> Does any one know a good Tipp to get a few dB more at 3khz? Without changing drivers.



What's the driver combination? Looks pretty good.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Farquarl said:


> Hey,
> Does any one know a good Tipp to get a few dB more at 3khz? Without changing drivers.


This iem ain't tip sensitive.  


There is no peak to shift..


----------



## Farquarl

Xymordos said:


> What's the driver combination? Looks pretty good.


HODVTEC, Bellsing Twfk, ED

They allread sound amazing tbh, but I think just a tad more at 3khz would be great.



dhruvmeena96 said:


> This iem ain't tip sensitive.
> 
> 
> There is no peak to shift..


What do you mean by "tip sensitive"?


----------



## Xymordos

Farquarl said:


> HODVTEC, Bellsing Twfk, ED
> 
> They allread sound amazing tbh, but I think just a tad more at 3khz would be great.
> 
> ...



Can you change the damper or XO?


----------



## wardy

Can anyone suggest some good books on accoustics? Especially ones that could be applied to iems 

Cheers


----------



## GourmetEnte

Hey guys, I've been building the finale 2 IEM in a universal fit shell. When test hearing it sounds rather shouty. I was wondering if I'd have to adjust tube length due to the fact that I'm using a universal fit, cheers


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Mar 15, 2020)

GourmetEnte said:


> Hey guys, I've been building the finale 2 IEM in a universal fit shell. When test hearing it sounds rather shouty. I was wondering if I'd have to adjust tube length due to the fact that I'm using a universal fit, cheers


Your ED30761 looks like full covered. The vent looks closed off

This will cause the bass to die and make mids more prominent

Plus... There was no components in the iem... If I remember correctly.


----------



## GourmetEnte

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Your ED30761 looks like full covered. The vent looks closed off


The driver isn't fully closed off. However I don't know where the vent is when looking at the driver and schematics provided by Knowles. Is it on the back? If so then it shouldn't be an issue as it isn't covered.



dhruvmeena96 said:


> Plus... There was no components in the iem... If I remember correctly.


If you're referring to the two resistors: those are two 1ohm resistors. The design calls for 1 2ohm resistor.

Cheers


----------



## tomekk (Mar 15, 2020)

GourmetEnte said:


> I've been building the finale 2 IEM in a universal fit shell. When test hearing it sounds rather shouty



Pads, if it's a mistake (I see two open pads), can cause asymmetrical peaks. You should also close the shell to compensate the chamber pressure.

Edit:


----------



## dhruvmeena96

tomekk said:


> Pads, if it's a mistake (I see two open pads), can cause asymmetrical peaks. You should also close the shell to compensate the chamber pressure.
> 
> Edit:


Yah.... This one I was talking about.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

GourmetEnte said:


> The driver isn't fully closed off. However I don't know where the vent is when looking at the driver and schematics provided by Knowles. Is it on the back? If so then it shouldn't be an issue as it isn't covered.
> 
> 
> If you're referring to the two resistors: those are two 1ohm resistors. The design calls for 1 2ohm resistor.
> ...


Ohhh the minor compensator I called for.


The issue of shoutiness is due to covering of vent


----------



## GourmetEnte

Thank you guys, 
have put the changes to practice. 
Will post my build once if finished.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

GourmetEnte said:


> Thank you guys,
> have put the changes to practice.
> Will post my build once if finished.


FED30048 cannot shout 
ED30761 with red damper also cannot shout

The issue was covering up the vent which got the ED30761 bass less and boosted the uppermid focus


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Since I promised and vanished in thin air
I am really Sorry

Well...

Final 4 

Sonion 38D1XJ
L-pad 4.7ohm parallel    5.6ohm series
1mm tube and 20mm length

Knowles TWFK31082 
3mm tube and 10mm length


No dampers
Nowhere

No zobel

Pure Drive


----------



## tomekk (Mar 16, 2020)

et.haan said:


>



I've lost sight of this project. 10/10 

Edit;
Uh it's 64


----------



## BigBublik (Mar 20, 2020)

Today i created MASM7 and... where is the bass?
Has anyone found bass in masm 7? 

The sound is great, the stage is wide, everything is great. But bass is gone.
I have CIEM on GK-31732 and compared to MASM 7, they are just super bass.

Maybe I did something wrong? But I checked that all the drivers are working.


----------



## Cevisi (Mar 20, 2020)

My second build. Internals are nothing special 1DD for 8 bucks. I was not build for soundquality just for experience.

Fit and isolation is good. And it dont sound bad i would say like a 50-70 dollar iem

Its better then the first one but iam still not happy whit the build quality


----------



## dhruvmeena96

BigBublik said:


> Today i created MASM7 and... where is the bass?
> Has anyone found bass in masm 7?
> 
> The sound is great, the stage is wide, everything is great. But bass is gone.
> ...


It was updated by

@stephensynanta16 

He made MASM 7Z

And I guess there might be damper or driver issue


----------



## BigBublik

dhruvmeena96 said:


> It was updated by
> 
> @stephensynanta16
> 
> ...



I checked the drivers, all OK. 
I tried different dampers and without dampers.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

BigBublik said:


> I checked the drivers, all OK.
> I tried different dampers and without dampers.


Is it dualbore or triple bore
And check tube leaks also


----------



## wardy

Can anyone give me a hand? 

Currently the triple driver IEMS I have made just arent cutting it, they are boxy with to many mids.

Im currently using a CI and TWFK but just cant seem to get them to work together (I know this is a super common driver config, I must be doing something wrong.)

Does anyone have any solid builds / conifgs that really work with these drivers? 
Cheers


----------



## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


----------



## tomekk

Buying such expensive drivers for $200 is a bad idea for a start.

In my opinion you should start with a simple RAB construction, which is a good idea. When you assemble the first prototype, your appetite will increase with your skill/ You won't be able to assemble such advanced design in the first 3-5 prototypes.


----------



## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


----------



## tomekk

I see. Maybe it would be a good idea to have a DIY system if you don't have one? Do you have any kind of drivers in home DIY stock now?


----------



## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


----------



## tomekk

Right on said:


> I think I don't need any crossover but only Damping damper.



38D1XJ007Mi/8a (acupass) + Knowles GK, no any extra electrical crossovers, it is a good couple to start playing.


----------



## TOBIJampar

Farquarl said:


> Someone wants a pair of monitors done and is paying for it. I´ll keep you posted if you are interestedt. I could also send you a small ammount of resin if you want to try it out.


I just got the prints from Farquarl and they came out really nice and fit perfectly


----------



## Colsanaudio

Cevisi said:


> Soundlink still sell them in china i think they send you some when you ask (and dont live in the us i think)


Contact sales@colsanaudio.com for Bellsing drivers and cable


----------



## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


----------



## tomekk

Right on said:


> I'll connect the crossovers to the sonion drivers.



This will actually not be needed because acupass is an acoustic crossover , and it is designed not to use electric lowpass.  Just one capacitor for 2389, connected to half the coil, What uF? I'd do well to experimentally listen to the ear and observe the impedance diagram / freq resp.  I will try 10uF. You definitely need to check the polarity 38D1XJ.


----------



## Farquarl

TOBIJampar said:


> I just got the prints from Farquarl and they came out really nice and fit perfectly


Im really glad you like them! This is learning  experience for me as well  Especially because this is a completly new resin for me.


----------



## johnchpark

Anyone know where you can get FRD and ZMA files for Knowles and Sonion to design crossovers?


----------



## Kulgrinda

Kulgrinda said:


> Any suggestions for something good sounding with CI, Hodvtec, RAB, SR and double TWFKs salvaged from Belsing 6 driver bundle?


Anyone?


----------



## tomekk (Mar 30, 2020)

Hodvtec yellow edit: orange damper 1mm*22mm full range, white damper 20mm*2mmCI full range with Rab 0,47uF +maybe resistor 5Ohm series ,  2mm*15mm Double TWFK, all drivers connected parallel 1uF white damper.  (OFC, HODVTEC requires the right polarization, TWFK also. You have to test the phases.)


----------



## Kulgrinda

tomekk said:


> Hodvtec yellow edit: orange damper 1mm*22mm full range, white damper 20mm*2mmCI full range with Rab 0,47uF +maybe resistor 5Ohm series ,  2mm*15mm Double TWFK, all drivers connected parallel 1uF white damper.  (OFC, HODVTEC requires the right polarization, TWFK also. You have to test the phases.)


Thanks! It would quote difficult to fit i a universal fit shell, I just only managed to fit 2xCI + Twfk in one shell.

What impact adding Cap and Rez to RAB make? Cap would work as high pass, right, so Rez would make it more silent?

Hodvtec and twfk requires right polarization - polarity is marked in the schemes, are they not reliable?


----------



## tomekk

Kulgrinda said:


> Thanks! It would quote difficult to fit i a universal fit shell, I just only managed to fit 2xCI + Twfk in one shell.



It is recipe for CIEMS, universals - you can use shorter tubes, any, the ear canal will compensate for tube lengths. You can use 2mm cuted needles to reduce the thickness of the shell tip constriction. Actually, it's an 9/10 on a scale of difficulty. You need a large universal housing. Something like a KZ big shell.



Kulgrinda said:


> What impact adding Cap and Rez to RAB make? Cap would work as high pass, right, so Rez would make it more silent?



Yes, highpass on the RAB allows for working in one phase with CI. RAB adds a lot of air and improves the CI scene. The resistor allows to cut the dry midrange sounds in RAB (I don't know if it will be needed there) I used it in damper free 2mm tubes projects.



Kulgrinda said:


> Hodvtec and twfk requires right polarization - polarity is marked in the schemes, are they not reliable?



Probably Hodvtec must be connected with reverse polarity to CI. In case of TWFK it may be similar, but it should fit in positive polarity.


----------



## Kulgrinda

tomekk said:


> It is recipe for CIEMS, universals - you can use shorter tubes, any, the ear canal will compensate for tube lengths. You can use 2mm cuted needles to reduce the thickness of the shell tip constriction. Actually, it's an 9/10 on a scale of difficulty. You need a large universal housing. Something like a KZ big shell.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you for your input, good base for my experiments.

Any experience with Sr? I've somewhere it should make a good woofer and it is only one top firing driver currently available  at Soundlink, so I was curiuos.


----------



## tomekk (Mar 30, 2020)

Any unusual driver may be interesting if there is an idea for it. I mean, FED, SR, BK. A question of luck, hours, and the right coffee supply.


----------



## alanwcruz

Hi guys, just sharing the latest.

3D printed Finale 2, Elegoo Mars with dental biocompatible resin.


----------



## Cevisi

alanwcruz said:


> Hi guys, just sharing the latest.
> 
> 3D printed Finale 2, Elegoo Mars with dental biocompatible resin.


Nice how did you scan it ?


----------



## alanwcruz

Cevisi said:


> Nice how did you scan it ?



Photogrammetry, the secret is giving contrasting color to the texture on your impressions. I used green and black chalk paint. Got great results.


----------



## alanwcruz (Mar 30, 2020)

Oops, double post.


----------



## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


----------



## Bassiklee

You don't need the red damper with the Accupass loaded 38** drivers.


----------



## tomekk (Apr 2, 2020)

Bassiklee said:


> You don't need the red damper with the Accupass loaded 38** drivers.



Correct. (acustic) Damper is built into the speaker 2mm x 12-14mm 2354 Green/or Brown/or White damper with one cap 2,2-10 uF, full coil.  Sonion 38D1XJ without damper 2mmx16-20mm. Probably reverse polarity 38D1XJ. Do not use 2x 2354 in parallel, you will reduce top peaks 5-8-10kHz.


----------



## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


----------



## eunice

Right on said:


> Thank you so much for the help.
> One last question please.
> I can't understand what uf does 4.7uf for example reduces the low frequencies and 470 uf for example reduces the high frequencies ?  I want to cut completely the frequencies above 200hz to the 38D1X.


Depends on how you wire it and the cutoff frequency is depending on driver impedance. 
Google RC Filter calculator for online calculators.


----------



## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


----------



## eunice

Very roughly yes. Reality is - as it is often - much more complicated. For once there is no such thing as a clear cutoff frequency. It is always a slope, with simple filters it is a pretty shallow slope, higher order filters have a steeper slope but require more components. Also using the DC resistance only gives you a ballpark value, the driver has different resistance depending on the frequency (reactance is the better term for this frequency depending resistance). 
Long story short: use the values you calculated as a starting value for tuning by ear/measurements. Don’t be surprised if your final values are way different.


----------



## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


----------



## Bassiklee

Your 38D1X really doesn't need any additional filtering.  That's its biggest selling point.


----------



## BigBublik

Friends, please advise the length of tubes and the location of damper in a pair ED-29689 and CI-22955?
I want to warm sound.


----------



## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


----------



## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


----------



## tomekk (Apr 5, 2020)

Right on said:


> I must use 24ohm resistor and a 33uf capacitor and it will be 200.95 hz cut off " frequency low pass filter .this for the 38D1X



Too low lowpassed driver will cut off much of the scene. I'd do a rolloff falling about 1 kHz, which is full range 38D1X. 200 Hz That's a good idea if you use another full range driver.



Right on said:


> For the 2354 using a 220nf capacitor at 4 ohm dc will cut the bass frequencies from 180.86 hz and below.



2354 I would do a rolloff rising about 2kHz, with filtering below. 200nF cuts off the driver probably something around 8-10 kHz.


----------



## Bassiklee

Right on said:


> That's true. I was emailing with sonion and they told me the same thing. They told me I don't need a crossover but I can use a crossover.  is not the same thing a subwoofer directly connected to the source with a subwoofer with crossover. It will have a deeper bass.




Yes and no.  It won't have deeper bass.  It will have less midrange content,  which will SEEM like more low end.  

I still say that particular sonion needs no additional filtering to be thundering.  These crossovers are very shallow slope, so it's not like a driver stops playing at 236.01Hz. At best,  we're getting a 6dB/octave roll off.  That equates to 1/4 the power at,  in the frequency I cited,  472.04, and then another -6dB at 944.08, and so on.


----------



## BigBublik

Hi.

I have a question about shells.
I look at the shells that famous companies make and what they make them out of? I know - its printed on a 3d printer.
How do they make such a smooth and shiny?
I attached some pictures from internet.


----------



## eunice

They are using biocompatible resin. There are different brands selling this, Dreve is one of them.


----------



## BigBublik

eunice said:


> They are using biocompatible resin. There are different brands selling this, Dreve is one of them.



I have experience printing such a resin from Dreve. But I don't get such a perfect smooth and shiny surface.


----------



## eunice

They probably have laser SLA printers with very high resolution and maybe they lacquer it afterwards.


----------



## BigBublik

eunice said:


> They probably have laser SLA printers with very high resolution and maybe they lacquer it afterwards.



That's exactly what I'm interested in post-processing.


----------



## Farquarl

BigBublik said:


> That's exactly what I'm interested in post-processing.


They either use a 3D printer which prints crystal clear from the start(can't remember the model name, something from envision Tec I think). Or they use a regular DLP or SLA printer and tumble their parts and lacquer them afterwards. At least that's how they produce hearing aids.


----------



## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


----------



## Bassiklee

Right on said:


> Yes that's true. You are right.
> 6db /octave roll of.
> putting 2 capacitors and 2 resistors a second order low pass filter it will be a -40dB/decade or -12dB/octave. That means I must do better a 160hz "cut off"
> 
> ...



So now you’ve lowered your sensitivity, and introduced quite a bit of phase shift. Have you tried listening to them without all this complicated filtering?? You might be pleasantly surprised


----------



## Farquarl

Bassiklee said:


> So now you’ve lowered your sensitivity, and introduced quite a bit of phase shift. Have you tried listening to them without all this complicated filtering?? You might be pleasantly surprised


You are exactly right, now you have a 90degree phase shift. Good luck compensating this with tube length to get the timing right.


----------



## eunice

2nd order is actually between 0 to 180 degree phase shift depending on the frequency. You cannot properly compensate phase shift with tube lengths.


----------



## Farquarl (Apr 7, 2020)

eunice said:


> 2nd order is actually between 0 to 180 degree phase shift depending on the frequency. You cannot properly compensate phase shift with tube lengths.


45° at the cutoff frequency for a 1st order filter. 90° for a second order. You can compensate phase shift with tube length at the crossover frequency. So that you align the timing.

It is obviously frequency dependend and becomes harder the lower the frequency is because of the wavelength of such frequencys.


----------



## eunice

Farquarl said:


> 45° at the cutoff frequency for a 1st order filter. 90° for a second order. You can compensate phase shift with tube length at the crossover frequency. So that you align the timing.
> 
> It is obviously frequency dependend and becomes harder the lower the frequency is because of the wavelength of such frequencys.


Now I understand what you mean. The phase shift is 0° for frequencies the filter lets pass completely and increases until the point where the filter lets nothing through. That limit is 90° for 1st order and 180° for 2nd order, but it's never reached in practise. I totally see why it makes sense to think about it the way you do.


----------



## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


----------



## eunice

Right on said:


> I'm waiting a new iec711 knowles - balanced armature coupler.


Nice! How did you get your hands on one of these? The one I have seen so far cost a fortune.


----------



## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


----------



## eunice

Right on said:


> From Ali express    with a soundcard. I asked the seller if is original and told me yes.


Do you mind sharing a link?


----------



## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


----------



## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


----------



## eunice

Thank you so much, I'll get the first one as it fits my minidsp umik-1


----------



## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


----------



## Farquarl (Apr 8, 2020)

eunice said:


> Now I understand what you mean. The phase shift is 0° for frequencies the filter lets pass completely and increases until the point where the filter lets nothing through. That limit is 90° for 1st order and 180° for 2nd order, but it's never reached in practise. I totally see why it makes sense to think about it the way you do.


Yes the limit is not reached but the phase shift of 45° for a 1st order is. Take a look at this picture, it shows that the phase shift of 45° is achieved at the corner/frequency which has only -3dB.





Edit: That's what you meant isn't it?  should have read it a second time this early in the morning.


----------



## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


----------



## stephensynanta16

BigBublik said:


> Today i created MASM7 and... where is the bass?
> Has anyone found bass in masm 7?
> 
> The sound is great, the stage is wide, everything is great. But bass is gone.
> ...


check for air leak on each hole on the nozzle bro, even just a little leak will drastically reduce the bass. masm7 is quite tricky to seal it airtight.

and yah, bro, GK is super bassy compared to masm7. Masm7 is more like a controlled bass boost. Masm7 has a weird yet very nice quirk where the it feels like the bassline is really separated from any the other sound. At first it might feels like it lack bass due to its quirk.

Get the seal airtight, Drive it on hi-gain.


----------



## eunice

The knowles one looks like its an adapter just for one balanced armature driver - i'm aiming to measure assemblies of multiple drivers.


alanwcruz said:


> I tried with a resin from 3dresyns but didn't like the results, this latest test was with Dentona 3D Optiprint Guide 385. It's used to make dental surgical guides, figured I can't get safer than that! Bought it off amazon.


What printer did you use?  Do you have a 385nm printer?


----------



## BigBublik

stephensynanta16 said:


> check for air leak on each hole on the nozzle bro, even just a little leak will drastically reduce the bass. masm7 is quite tricky to seal it airtight.



Bro, thanks for the advice.
I checked the 3D printed SLA printer and found leaks. Now I am waiting for the new ciem shells and will make them with tubes.


----------



## Tunzearplug

Hello,

I am installing Universal shell for you.Have a good print.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1v5m1rAV36hylC2Qh2OteI6AwChQ6sCSq/view


----------



## Farquarl

Tunzearplug said:


> Hello,
> 
> I am installing Universal shell for you.Have a good print.
> 
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1v5m1rAV36hylC2Qh2OteI6AwChQ6sCSq/view


Nice! I'll post mine too as well. Keep those resources coming.


----------



## alanwcruz

eunice said:


> The knowles one looks like its an adapter just for one balanced armature driver - i'm aiming to measure assemblies of multiple drivers.
> 
> What printer did you use?  Do you have a 385nm printer?



I use an inexpensive Elegoo Mars


----------



## eunice

alanwcruz said:


> I use an inexpensive Elegoo Mars


Thanks. Do you use the stock UV Source of the printer? It’s 405nm like my anycubic photon. If so I too can print optiprint guide 385. What are your exposure Settings?


----------



## alanwcruz

eunice said:


> Thanks. Do you use the stock UV Source of the printer? It’s 405nm like my anycubic photon. If so I too can print optiprint guide 385. What are your exposure Settings?



Yup, stock UV source. Here are the settings I use for optiprint guide 385:


----------



## eunice

alanwcruz said:


> Yup, stock UV source. Here are the settings I use for optiprint guide 385:


Thank you so much!


----------



## Bassiklee

Let me just say this: lights matter! I was about to give up on Pro3dure resin, even though it’s easier, more forgiving, and considerably cheaper than fotoplast. I simply could not get a wall thickness that was thick enough to not shatter when the MMCX connector was plugged in.   Then, I swapped out two of the UV lamps in my super high tech station for LEDs. HUGE difference. I’m going to have to adjust all my curing times.

My current home brew shell cooking station is essentially what’s in the video. I replaced the two lights in each one that oppose each other, leaving the ones in the corners as they were.


----------



## Bassiklee

To clarify,  my nail stations are such that the lamps on the sides sort of angle up into the center.  Not such a big deal with a uv lamp that lights all around,  but the leds are pretty directional.  I'm working on a strip led based curing station,  so this is temporary.


----------



## F208Frank

When I see DIY threads like this, I feel like such a loser as I do not feel I can do any of that. =/


----------



## Bassiklee

You gotta start somewhere.  None of us started out making pefect ears.  Mine are far from perfect now,  but I constantly try to improve the process,  and the outcome.


----------



## BigBublik

Friends, please advise an alternative to Dreve Fotoplast Lack 3?


----------



## Bassiklee

Egger lacquer LP/H
Pro3dure L-1 UV lacquer

There are others.  The Pro3Dure is pretty good.  Doesn't yellow nearly as bad as lak3. Egger doesn't yellow at all,  in my experience.


----------



## tomekk (Apr 23, 2020)

In my experience +500 lacked pairs Lack 3 is the best. It is not too dense, not too liquid and has the best brush  Egger is also cool, but he has worse brush (too small) and Egger LP/H is a little too liquid.


----------



## Tunzearplug

I think lack 3 is better. I have been in the hearing aids industry for 17 years and it is brighter and permanent.egger and detax same.


----------



## ForceMajeure

The thing with all lacquers is that when new, they are much easier to handle and flow nicely, regardless of the brand. 

But after a few months and overall use (could range from 2 months or more), they tend to become thicker, the brush which is crucial for good results gets worse and tend to pick/create more bubbles. 

Lacquer also cures faster when new than old. 

Ofc there are batches variances, it's like resin, some are better batch than others 

Having a bottle of 50ml with a single brush might not be wise, maybe having smaller 20ml with brushes might be smarter.
Not only you get more brushes and less lacquer is exposed to air but with bigger bottles the brush hangs in the air inside the bottle (when you have less lacquer inside) this might make it worse as well.

When using big bottles you have to find a way to tilt the bottle permanently so your brush can reach the lacquer when there is less of it and it happens sooner than you think since the brush length is short compared to the bottle itself... 

All the above is less of importance though, it's best to have lacquer than not to have it since it's hard to acquire, let's deal with the shortcomings once we have some...


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Senor CIEM said:


> Dear DIY CIEM Community,
> 
> after getting into all these things the last 2 weeks, I'm really excited to getting started into this project by practising it in the next few days. Reading all the informations here in this thread with over 400 pages and getting through the very nice made Google Docs Wiki, I think I know now a lot of things making shells, faceplates, designs and ear molds, but the biggest part for me is still making the CIEMs sound good from the scratch.
> 
> ...


Everything works

Just put your heart into it

And go doing hit and trial on IEC coupler
Adjusting tubes and dampers


----------



## Farquarl

ForceMajeure said:


> The thing with all lacquers is that when new, they are much easier to handle and flow nicely, regardless of the brand.
> 
> But after a few months and overall use (could range from 2 months or more), they tend to become thicker, the brush which is crucial for good results gets worse and tend to pick/create more bubbles.
> 
> ...


Does anyone know what solvent these lacquers use? My strong guess is toluol.


----------



## mattmatt

Farquarl said:


> Does anyone know what solvent these lacquers use? My strong guess is toluol.


Is toluol skin safe?


----------



## Farquarl

mattmatt said:


> Is toluol skin safe?


It is not, but it will evaporate so there will be none left. Maybe I'll try to thin the lacquer once it becomes too thick.


----------



## Omegamma

I am searching for a high quality dynamic driver for my vented earbud project in the 15-16mm range. I would like to have an easy to drive one so preferred impedance would be less than 100 ohm. Any recommendation?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Omegamma said:


> I am searching for a high quality dynamic driver for my vented earbud project in the 15-16mm range. I would like to have an easy to drive one so preferred impedance would be less than 100 ohm. Any recommendation?


Hmmm

This is kinda wrong thread but still I can guide you(this is In ear monitor thread)

https://a.aliexpress.com/_dVCSper
130ohms but is drivable just fine
And do see the specs as you open the link
You will be happy


This will fit in MX500 shell

Hope this helps


----------



## Omegamma

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Hmmm
> 
> This is kinda wrong thread but still I can guide you(this is In ear monitor thread)
> 
> ...


Thanks a lot! Meanwhile recognized that there is a dedicated thread for ear buds diy over here. Did you try this driver?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Omegamma said:


> Thanks a lot! Meanwhile recognized that there is a dedicated thread for ear buds diy over here. Did you try this driver?


Yes...
And its nice...

But see I ain't believe in burn in

But do one thing

Just max out the volume on this driver for 15minutes(dont distort it, just drive loud as it can get)

And then listen to it

The beryllium coating on it is too hard and once the mylar main diaphragm gets elastic enough

It can have nice details


----------



## x321z (May 6, 2020)

Hello DIY enthusiasts and avid readers. First off, I'm a fan of "conservative" ratings by manufacturers, so I have sort of an anti-spec stance, also, noticed some sort of discrepancy. 

So the Sonion datasheets of their 29689 variants show almost spiking low frequency distortion,  but compare "2323" to "2354" both show same SPL but markedly different harmonic product. What I am missing here, 
I dont notice this THD spike in ER4 measurements, because ERs arent tested near saturation, and what about 23xx vs 2354 regardless..?


----------



## Farquarl

x321z said:


> Hello DIY enthusiasts and avid readers. First off, I'm a fan of "conservative" ratings by manufacturers, so I have sort of an anti-spec stance, also, noticed some sort of discrepancy.
> 
> So the Sonion datasheets of their 29689 variants show almost spiking low frequency distortion,  but compare "2323" to "2354" both show same SPL but markedly different harmonic product. What I am missing here,
> I dont notice this THD spike in ER4 measurements, because ERs arent tested near saturation, and what about 23xx vs 2354 regardless..?


What do you mean by SPL? The response curve? The curve is quite different in my opinion. If you are refering to max SPL i can´t find this spec on their datasheet.


----------



## Farquarl

An another subject iust finished my 5 driver model called "Nightingale".


----------



## x321z (May 6, 2020)

Farquarl said:


> What do you mean by SPL? The response curve? The curve is quite different in my opinion. If you are refering to max SPL i can´t find this spec on their datasheet.  (...)



The left hand scale on graphs denote sound pressure level. 
Looks like adding a port isnt just added level as commonly believed but it's pushing saturation out VERY significantly, because closed driver of same dimensions saturates , so in effect max SPL is reduced. Any pointers, what is the downside to this?


----------



## Farquarl

x321z said:


> The left hand scale on graphs denote sound pressure level.
> Looks like adding a port isnt just added level as commonly believed but it's pushing saturation out VERY significantly, because closed driver of same dimensions saturates , so in effect max SPL is reduced. Any pointers, what is the downside to this?


There is no such thing as max spl on this graph it only depicts sensitivity. I think such response curves are made with 1mw of power over the spectrum. I don´t quite understand what you mean by saturation?


----------



## x321z (May 6, 2020)

When you reach 10% THD that's it afaik, so the upper plot is max , or just slightly less than maximum SPL. 
Anyway I think I figured out. The downside is probably not on the THD plot but "elsewhere" that makes the port not so desirable in single unit wide range BA .


----------



## mattmatt

Hey guys, just wondering if anyone know a viable clear liquid silicone mold I can use for casting Universal shells


----------



## Bassiklee

If you have a pressure pot, smooth-on sorta-clear is the closest I've found in the US.  

https://www.smooth-on.com/product-line/sorta-clear/

Dreve does make Fotosil and Klarsil.  I know you can get the Fotosil in cartridges as well as a 2L and 10L kits.  I haven't looked into what Klarsil comes as.  I'm still using hydrocolloid,  but I stumbled across a great deal on the Dreve Dosper,  so the two part silicone is on my list.


----------



## ForceMajeure

Bassiklee said:


> If you have a pressure pot, smooth-on sorta-clear is the closest I've found in the US.
> 
> https://www.smooth-on.com/product-line/sorta-clear/
> 
> Dreve does make Fotosil and Klarsil.  I know you can get the Fotosil in cartridges as well as a 2L and 10L kits.  I haven't looked into what Klarsil comes as.  I'm still using hydrocolloid,  but I stumbled across a great deal on the Dreve Dosper,  so the two part silicone is on my list.



Regarding the sorta clear. exactly what he said, a pressure pot is a must.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Farquarl said:


> What do you mean by SPL? The response curve? The curve is quite different in my opinion. If you are refering to max SPL i can´t find this spec on their datasheet.





the measurement is of st


x321z said:


> Hello DIY enthusiasts and avid readers. First off, I'm a fan of "conservative" ratings by manufacturers, so I have sort of an anti-spec stance, also, noticed some sort of discrepancy.
> 
> So the Sonion datasheets of their 29689 variants show almost spiking low frequency distortion,  but compare "2323" to "2354" both show same SPL but markedly different harmonic product. What I am missing here,
> I dont notice this THD spike in ER4 measurements, because ERs arent tested near saturation, and what about 23xx vs 2354 regardless..?


first of all

the ED29689 in ER4p is 20ohm added
and ER4s is 97ohm added

stock ED distort even more on those area at stock 3ohms

as the amp see low resistance, amp drives a lot of current and gets stressed too(but we believe sonion has ideal amp)

Current drive + at that dB in the graph

the distortion is okay

add 20ohms and calculate attenuation

and convert the % in dB and then attenuate same from dB distortion decibel

and then make a ratio, i will garuntee you , that you will have same distortion like ER4


now second reason is, the green damper

which mask the upper mid slope and also hide the distortion viewed by microphone

so, mate there are many factors


on just stock driver, the ED29689 kinda has similar behavior to 2323 or 2389


----------



## mattmatt

Bassiklee said:


> If you have a pressure pot, smooth-on sorta-clear is the closest I've found in the US.
> 
> https://www.smooth-on.com/product-line/sorta-clear/
> 
> Dreve does make Fotosil and Klarsil.  I know you can get the Fotosil in cartridges as well as a 2L and 10L kits.  I haven't looked into what Klarsil comes as.  I'm still using hydrocolloid,  but I stumbled across a great deal on the Dreve Dosper,  so the two part silicone is on my list.


Thanks! Dreve stuff is waaay too expensive for me. Might go with smooth on.  



ForceMajeure said:


> Regarding the sorta clear. exactly what he said, a pressure pot is a must.


Probably need to get my compressor back to work again. I have a pressure pot already but my compressor got toasted 🤣


----------



## stephensynanta16

Sup everyone, its been a while since i posted here

I'll share u the last update on DIY MASM7Z recipe:

Add 10 ohm before BZ6's zobel: Mmcx - 10ohm - zobel - BZ6
Leave RAB out of those extra resistor.

Thats it. it'll solve the bass problem. with 32033 or 32257, that thing is a DIY Bass God. I've been tinkering with masm7 for almost a year, and its a very rewarding build.

@dhruvmeena96 bro, can we say that DIY MASM7 recipe is already at its prime?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

stephensynanta16 said:


> Sup everyone, its been a while since i posted here
> 
> I'll share u the last update on DIY MASM7Z recipe:
> 
> ...


Might be

Might be not


We are playing relay race. I passed MASM7 to you
Do whatever you want to improve it and then pass it forward to another visionary who is better than you

Hahahahahahha


----------



## Lucas Taboada

Hello! To the people that make custom shells, how do you prevent to get dust in sound tubes and 2pin conector when doing the final sanding? I've tried using tape but still got some dust in.

Other problem, my 2pin conectors are too tight and I almost broke a shell these days when trying to insert the cable, any tips on dealing with that? what can I use to enlarge the conector?


----------



## itsnotLupus

stephensynanta16 said:


> Sup everyone, its been a while since i posted here
> 
> I'll share u the last update on DIY MASM7Z recipe:
> 
> ...


Do you think it will also apply for the 32063 version ?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

itsnotLupus said:


> Do you think it will also apply for the 32063 version ?


it becomes tame in bass


----------



## Farquarl

Lucas Taboada said:


> Hello! To the people that make custom shells, how do you prevent to get dust in sound tubes and 2pin conector when doing the final sanding? I've tried using tape but still got some dust in.
> 
> Other problem, my 2pin conectors are too tight and I almost broke a shell these days when trying to insert the cable, any tips on dealing with that? what can I use to enlarge the conector?


Hey 
i just blow the dust out with compressed air but you could alsoe bluetack to close the tubes temporary.
Conserning your 2 pin connector problem, i use a scriber to enlarge it if it doesn´t fit.


----------



## Farquarl

I designed a x-over and let the pcb fabricate by JLCpcb. They turned out amazing. Its a 3 way design.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Farquarl said:


> I designed a x-over and let the pcb fabricate by JLCpcb. They turned out amazing. Its a 3 way design.



Amazing... And the cross looks lit
For which driver models though


----------



## Farquarl (May 15, 2020)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Amazing... And the cross looks lit
> For which driver models though


Thanks man!

HODVTEC with a lowpass, ED-29689 with a resistor in series to tame it and a TWFK full range.


----------



## leapof

Farquarl said:


> An another subject iust finished my 5 driver model called "Nightingale".


Excellent build quality! What was your process for adding the logo? Btw those are huge ear canals


----------



## Bassiklee

Those look great!!  I am toying with a similar idea. Trying to find a layout that works with various combinations.  I think I'm close.  Different values of caps and resistors, obviously. That, and just jumpers on some configs.


----------



## Farquarl

leapof said:


> Excellent build quality! What was your process for adding the logo? Btw those are huge ear canals


Thank you.
I ordered the logos of aliexpress because the one i made them for wanted it. They are made out of metal and backed with an adhesive film. My process is to glue them on the carbon plate and add resin on top  sorry if thats not really spectacular.

ps.
I´ve seen bigger xD


----------



## Farquarl

Bassiklee said:


> Those look great!!  I am toying with a similar idea. Trying to find a layout that works with various combinations.  I think I'm close.  Different values of caps and resistors, obviously. That, and just jumpers on some configs.


Yes yes i did similiar design as well. Its so handy to try it out. But recently i just etch the pcb myself if i need a quick prototype. Everyone with a SLA printer should be able to do that. Your idea with the jumpers sound interesting. would you share the gerber files?


----------



## Bassiklee

I don't have files.  I actually just sent you a pm.


----------



## mattmatt

Farquarl said:


> I designed a x-over and let the pcb fabricate by JLCpcb. They turned out amazing. Its a 3 way design.


Mouth watering!


----------



## killaHz (May 16, 2020)

I’m a ham-fisted oaf, and I’m wondering what people do to immobilize these tiny litz wires against the various driver terminals and MMCX/2-pin plug connectors while soldering them together. The various third-hand tools I’ve tried have these big spring clips and ungainly arms that make fine-grained positioning of parts basically impossible.

EDIT: And while we’re at it, what kind of soldering station should I buy? I may just do the Hakko 888, which seems very highly regarded, but if people know what else is worth checking out, please let me know.


----------



## Bassiklee

Blue tack is your friend.  As for a station,  mine is a cheapie.  It works, for now


----------



## Farquarl (May 16, 2020)

Matthew420 said:


> I’m a ham-fisted oaf, and I’m wondering what people do to immobilize these tiny litz wires against the various driver terminals and MMCX/2-pin plug connectors while soldering them together. The various third-hand tools I’ve tried have these big spring clips and ungainly arms that make fine-grained positioning of parts basically impossible.
> 
> EDIT: And while we’re at it, what kind of soldering station should I buy? I may just do the Hakko 888, which seems very highly regarded, but if people know what else is worth checking out, please let me know.


Hey,
Blue tack like said is really awesome. But I found to have a nice small precision vice helps even better. Considering the soldering station  I can highly recommend the ts12000a from quick. It's around the same price but is for precision soldering and has 8s from 20-350C° heating time.


----------



## mattmatt

Matthew420 said:


> I’m a ham-fisted oaf, and I’m wondering what people do to immobilize these tiny litz wires against the various driver terminals and MMCX/2-pin plug connectors while soldering them together. The various third-hand tools I’ve tried have these big spring clips and ungainly arms that make fine-grained positioning of parts basically impossible.
> 
> EDIT: And while we’re at it, what kind of soldering station should I buy? I may just do the Hakko 888, which seems very highly regarded, but if people know what else is worth checking out, please let me know.


Blutak is one of the easiest way to go. For station, I use TS100 and never looked back.


----------



## Farquarl

mattmatt said:


> Blutak is one of the easiest way to go. For station, I use TS100 and never looked back.


Oh yeah the TS100 is really good. I would say any soldering iron/station with changable tips with intergrated heater cartrdiges and thermocouples are a big plus.


----------



## LeaveMasonAlone

Hello everyone, I'm new here but I've been digging through this thread for a couple weeks now. I'm planning a driver setup using a KZ shell, I've decided on a Sonion 38D1XJ (Bass/sub bass is very important to me, and I don't do music production so I don't need a "reference" type signature), what driver/drivers should I pair it and any tips on zobel/no zobel, filters/no filters, tubing diameter/length, anything? Any input is appreciated greatly, this is my first IEM and the only experience I have is KZ's ZST (the shell donor) and my current daily driver is the ZSX. Thanks


----------



## Bassiklee

There's 752 pages of various ideas.  Not trying to be flip.  You'll find tons of ideas.  Me,  with that LF driver,  I might start with a TWFK for mids and highs,  with appropriate filtering and dampers,  and see.


----------



## LeaveMasonAlone

I was thinking probably TWFK, but I figured I'd ask for recommendations first. I forgot to mention that in the last post, I was at work (don't tell). I'm using the KZ shell to play around with drivers and filtering and such before I dive into making my own shells, I'll probably try a couple different drivers before I settle anyhow. Anything should be better than a "10mm" DD and 5x 30095s


----------



## LeaveMasonAlone

What's the difference between TWFK-30017 and TWFK-31082? Impedance?


----------



## Davezvg (Sep 8, 2020)

.


----------



## Davezvg

yegoshin said:


> I'll have to get some clear Fotoplast (I think red is a bit dark to try coloring it more)
> 
> Today was great, I managed to complete a set of IEM's. I made new shells from new masters (deeper canal part) & you can see the Masters in the gelatin in the first few pictures then I ripped the gelatin apart after UV curing. The last few pictures show how I made a cap - I rolled out a long bead of wax (Mini Babybel cheese wrapping wax :rolleyes then places the IEM shell down on foil and pressed the wax bead all the way around the shell. Lifted up the shell and filled the form with Fotoplast and then zapped it. The cap came off the foil and perfectly and then you can just pull the wax off. Soon much easier then trying to cut a sliver off the shell IMO.
> 
> ...


¿What are you using for the color with fotoplast?


----------



## mattmatt

Davezvg said:


> ¿What are you using for the color with fotoplast?


Many people use liquid pigments from Resin Obsession. 

I use something local in my country from a composite materials company.


----------



## Davezvg

mattmatt said:


> Many people use liquid pigments from Resin Obsession.
> 
> I use something local in my country from a composite materials company.


Ok Many thanks


----------



## Davezvg

Shilohsjustice said:


> A view of my latest projects.....
> 
> The smoky iem's are a Westone 3 re-shell with an added Knowles CI-22955 with a 50ohn resistor. Green dampers on the tweeter and red on the CI driver. Sounds great with a more equal mid-tone roar.
> 
> The blue shells are going to house a 6 driver configuration with CI x 2 a HODVETEC and a TWFK with a 3 way crossover. I haven't tested this setup yet but have drivers coming in this week.


¿are they made with fotoplast?


----------



## mattmatt

Davezvg said:


> ¿are they made with fotoplast?


They are.


----------



## duo8

Has anyone ever built with these shells? I want to do a deep insertion build.
They're small so they can only fit a single BA. This one has brackets for either 29689 or 32257. It might be possible to fit other BAs with similar sizes onto the same bracket.


----------



## Davezvg (Sep 8, 2020)

.


----------



## Farquarl

Didn´t he say that he used pigments from resin obsession?


----------



## mattmatt

Davezvg said:


> What do you use to give that color to fotoplast?


I just mentioned Resin Obsession a few replies ago.  I use something similar but different brand. 


Farquarl said:


> Didn´t he say that he used pigments from resin obsession?


I just did


----------



## seanwee

Does anyone know where i can get 9.2mm PEEK drivers used in the echobox finders?

Im thinking of using them as the bass drivers in a hybrid iem.


----------



## dh0licious (May 27, 2020)

Hi guys,

I'm looking to do my first mod - Sony Mh750 MMCX mod.

i've bought a cheap soldering iron (https://www.lazada.sg/products/jvgo...ezers-uk-plug-i272457890-s423095948.html?mp=1) to get started and am looking at getting some helping hands (probably this https://www.lazada.sg/products/3rd-...o42.searchlist.list.3.6590487atntwrV&search=1).

I'm wondering what other tools/parts? flux? Is there any particular type of soldering wire I should use (thickness)?


----------



## duo8

dh0licious said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I'm looking to do my first mod - Sony Mh750 MMCX mod.
> 
> ...


You should use stranded, enameled wire. I just cut the wire from the detached cable.


----------



## Farquarl

duo8 said:


> You should use stranded, enameled wire. I just cut the wire from the detached cable.


Yes buiyng a really cheap pair of earphones is one of the cheapest way to get stranded enamled wire. I can also recommend buying a syringe of the fake Amtech NC-559 flux. For the helping hands i would recommend blue tack, it was mentioned here a few post before. Its easier to use.


----------



## Davezvg (Sep 8, 2020)

.


----------



## mattmatt

Davezvg said:


> Are you using liquid pigment or pigment powder?


Like I said multiple times,

He used Resin Obsession pigments.


----------



## Farquarl

Liquid "pigment" is called dye. A pigment is by definition not soluble in the base media. If you want true transperancy use dye.


----------



## Davezvg (May 30, 2020)

.


----------



## stephensynanta16

itsnotLupus said:


> Do you think it will also apply for the 32063 version ?


Yes bro, and sorry for the very late reply


----------



## Farquarl

Hey,
Do you guys know if there are other connector types which are avaiblebaside from two pin and mmcx? Looking for high quality.


----------



## Bassiklee

There's the Linum T2. I haven't used those.  There's got to be a screw on connector similar to what JHA uses,  but with two pins instead of four.


----------



## Farquarl

Bassiklee said:


> There's the Linum T2. I haven't used those.  There's got to be a screw on connector similar to what JHA uses,  but with two pins instead of four.


The Estron T2 Talon connectors look nice but i can´t find a shop who sells them. Doesn´t JHA use a push in and turn solution?


----------



## ForceMajeure

If you are looking for the supposedly next best thing then there are the new pentaconn ear connector type.
They were designed as earphone connectors. 
This is an interview with acoustune that started implementing them https://post76.hk/news/2019/08/acoustune-ceo-interview/

There seem to be differences in batches thus far with slight inconsistency in term of grip/force for connecting and disconnecting but still should be much better than mmcx connection

This is the model name of that connector if I am not mistaken  *NLJ1-11-002* 
They come in red, blue and black iirc. They also require a special connection on the cable end


----------



## Farquarl

ForceMajeure said:


> If you are looking for the supposedly next best thing then there are the new pentaconn ear connector type.
> They were designed as earphone connectors.
> This is an interview with acoustune that started implementing them https://post76.hk/news/2019/08/acoustune-ceo-interview/
> 
> ...


The T2 still look somewhat better to me but I can't put my finger on it why. Mmcx is the worst option in my opinion it suffers from corrosion and wear. Two pin is slightly better but still has its disadvantages. I don't understand why there is not spring loaded connector with a tounge and groove design which stops the connector from rotating. I hope I find a good source for the T2 and the pentaconn connector you showed me. Thanks for the input guys!


----------



## Bassiklee

Please post your findings


----------



## mattmatt

Farquarl said:


> The T2 still look somewhat better to me but I can't put my finger on it why. Mmcx is the worst option in my opinion it suffers from corrosion and wear. Two pin is slightly better but still has its disadvantages. I don't understand why there is not spring loaded connector with a tounge and groove design which stops the connector from rotating. I hope I find a good source for the T2 and the pentaconn connector you showed me. Thanks for the input guys!


There's a spring loaded one. 

Something used by FitEar and Soranik.  Has the same pins used by Sennheiser HD600 series. No idea where to source them tho. Haha


----------



## mattmatt

ForceMajeure said:


> If you are looking for the supposedly next best thing then there are the new pentaconn ear connector type.
> They were designed as earphone connectors.
> This is an interview with acoustune that started implementing them https://post76.hk/news/2019/08/acoustune-ceo-interview/
> 
> ...


The new pentaconn stuff is widely used in Japan right now iirc.


----------



## Farquarl

Holy crap! 20$ for the sockets alone and another 40$ for the cable adapters. Are they made out of solid gold?

ps. without shipping!


----------



## Bassiklee

Pass....


----------



## Bassiklee

I know MEE audio uses a proprietary connector on their detachable cables.  Can't seem to find any details in a quick search.  

I know you said you don't like MMCX.  I have some that are three years old and they have never given me any issues.  Not trying to change your mind,  just giving you my experience with them


----------



## Farquarl (Jun 10, 2020)

Bassiklee said:


> I know MEE audio uses a proprietary connector on their detachable cables.  Can't seem to find any details in a quick search.
> 
> I know you said you don't like MMCX.  I have some that are three years old and they have never given me any issues.  Not trying to change your mind,  just giving you my experience with them


My opinion comes from the Shure iems i used they corroded after half a year. I also built some ciem with mmcx and so far every user had he same problem. Connection getting lost at random times. Maybe there are better quality once but if even the shure once don´t hold up i dont have much trust in them. Im glad you had more luck than i did.


----------



## ForceMajeure

There are different qualities for mmcx connectors out there.
There are beryllium based connectors that are better.
bispa connectors are higher quality and cost more, some male connectors are even rhodium plated.

in general the mmcx used by CFA are also quite good in term of longevity 

Personally I do prefer 2pin over mmcx in term of failure rate


----------



## Farquarl

ForceMajeure said:


> There are different qualities for mmcx connectors out there.
> There are beryllium based connectors that are better.
> bispa connectors are higher quality and cost more, some male connectors are even rhodium plated.
> 
> ...


Beryllium based? What does that even mean? 

Im sure there are better ones out there but i thought shure would use decent ones at least.


----------



## ForceMajeure

I meant that they are beryllium alloy. usually beryllium copper alloy that is supposed to offer more strength iirc


----------



## Farquarl

ForceMajeure said:


> I meant that they are beryllium alloy. usually beryllium copper alloy that is supposed to offer more strength iirc


That makes sense, I read on wikipedia that beryllium copper alloy is very corrosion resistive.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

@xpaladinx any question or doubts you wanna ask mate
Or any help with any build

Instead of liking post, just ask 

Would love to reply


----------



## LeaveMasonAlone

@dhruvmeena96 I've been lurking for quite a while, and I'd like to start off by saying thank you so much for everything you've contributed to this thread!

I have a quick question; I'm planning a 38D1XJ007 / TWFK build, I have all the parts and a Dayton iMM-6 on the way. But I'm having a hard time understanding the use of a zobel circuit, any advice would be appreciated.

In a setup with a low and high driver like this, is the zobel used on both drivers, just the high driver, or one for each?

If it's just for the TWFK, somewhere in this thread someone said to use a 15Ω resistor and a 17.3μF cap, are those numbers found by an algorithm based on known inductance, or do you decide by sound? I don't have the most discerning ears... yet


----------



## dhruvmeena96

LeaveMasonAlone said:


> @dhruvmeena96 I've been lurking for quite a while, and I'd like to start off by saying thank you so much for everything you've contributed to this thread!
> 
> I have a quick question; I'm planning a 38D1XJ007 / TWFK build, I have all the parts and a Dayton iMM-6 on the way. But I'm having a hard time understanding the use of a zobel circuit, any advice would be appreciated.
> 
> ...


You dont even need zobel to get flat impedance with 38..

Just use L-pad on woofer

And use TWFK in full range with WBFK part crossed at 470nF

It will be a nice tuning plus relatively very flat impedance


----------



## itsnotLupus (Jun 17, 2020)

General questions: Is it possible to remove tubes from BA bores after gluing them ?
If so, how hard is it?
Is there risk damaging the BA doing it ?
Is there better alternatives other than resin for gluing the tubes for testing purpose?

I'm thinking on building on an universal shell first, then using the same drivers to upgrade to a custom fit shell. Finally got the time to build them and don't want to wait till audiologist open back to public in my city to get my ear Impressions (thanks COVID-19). 
I also will like to try dual-bore vs tri-bore on the same build, but I will have to order and wait (on the tri-bore setup) around 4-6 weeks shipping time for the extra dampers to arrive.


----------



## Topgunman2

Hey all, im starting down the winding path of DIEM's since im stuck at home, unemployed  yay.....
My order arrived today from MCear with this tubing. Does anybody have any experience with it? Any benefits to using a 2into1 tube like this? or is it better to use two separate tubes?
Knowles GV btw.

Thanks


----------



## itsnotLupus

MASM7 questions:

How much will the sound be affected in the follow cases? :
- If in the Bellsing6 side I use 1mm ID on each bore, to 3mm ID as adapter for the 3 tubes, small space, then 2mm ID. (attached image for illustrative support only, I can do it cleaner)


- Same but using directly the three 1mm ID tubes into 2mm ID streached. (attached image for illustrative support only, I can do it cleaner)


- Covering the hole BS6 drivers (not only the bores) with 3mm ID, its not easy but doable.

- Use the 3D print cap, then tubes

- 3D print the hole tube system (either stand alone or the hole shell)


----------



## dhruvmeena96

itsnotLupus said:


> General questions: Is it possible to remove tubes from BA bores after gluing them ?
> If so, how hard is it?
> Is there risk damaging the BA doing it ?
> Is there better alternatives other than resin for gluing the tubes for testing purpose?
> ...


Yes its possible. But it depends on what glue you using



itsnotLupus said:


> MASM7 questions:
> 
> How much will the sound be affected in the follow cases? :
> - If in the Bellsing6 side I use 1mm ID on each bore, to 3mm ID as adapter for the 3 tubes, small space, then 2mm ID. (attached image for illustrative support only, I can do it cleaner)
> ...


Why are you even using tube based system when a 3D file is there?

It would be hard to control every parameter on tube and would be harder to make.

And if you are completely into MASM 7.

The connection point will shift the upper midrange peak a little bit.(I mean very little that it will be negligible)


----------



## itsnotLupus

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Yes its possible. But it depends on what glue you using


Which one is recomended ?
I have TP-2500F UV LOCA, epoxy for audio gear, quick cure time epoxy, krafts silicone. but I can go and buy something else.



dhruvmeena96 said:


> Why are you even using tube based system when a 3D file is there?


When I bought all the pieces to build MASM7, the 3D files were not available yet (or where in the making, can't recall correctly), so I went for the tube based sytem on my shopping list.
Is what I have in my hands, and if I can build them today, and in a few weeksi can upgrade to a 3D printed version will be ideal. That way I can build now with the 2 bores green and white dampers (the only one I have), buy extra dampers, wait for them to arrive and after that try the 3D version with 3 bores and dampers to play with.

Ideal scenario for me will be to have a 3D printed custom fit shell. But I know that will take some time.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

itsnotLupus said:


> Which one is recomended ?
> I have TP-2500F UV LOCA, epoxy for audio gear, quick cure time epoxy, krafts silicone. but I can go and buy something else.
> 
> 
> ...


@stephensynanta16 can you upload the MASM7 3D file(the MASM7 classic 3 tube one with both TWFK in one combined tube)..

For glue I have to check it up otherwise
 ask Stephen regarding what glue he uses because I have kinda retired for now from iem diy.

I mean I do diy stuff but I am not getting weird ideas lol.
And COVID-19 and indo- china tension and job is having toll over my life


----------



## dhruvmeena96

@itsnotLupus 

Actually you should try making your own combination of driver

I can help with it


----------



## itsnotLupus

dhruvmeena96 said:


> @itsnotLupus
> 
> Actually you should try making your own combination of driver
> 
> I can help with it


What do you mean ?
create a full new set ?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

itsnotLupus said:


> What do you mean ?
> create a full new set ?


Yes...

Different driver
Crossovers etc

That way you have more control on specific tuning


----------



## itsnotLupus

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Yes...
> 
> Different driver
> Crossovers etc
> ...


Well that would be much appreciated, I'm totally exited about the idea!
But just to be clear, I'm a complete noob, I wouldn't even know where to start.


----------



## stephensynanta16

@itsnotLupus here's ur masm7 shell bro

https://drive.google.com/file/d/190rFc3jcUGcKHEpc7sxnaZiVnixkpdHK/view?usp=sharing


----------



## assassin10000 (Jun 19, 2020)

Anyone have any feedback on some different 9.2mm drivers? I have 3 pairs of mh750/755 shells laying around and I'm thinking of trying some off AE.


----------



## Topgunman2

Cut, smoothed and Waxed(not in pic) Tomorrow time for negative forms and hopefully make the shells.... Been stressful this far 😂 but enjoyable. Any pro tips for using Agar Agar and Fotoplast(Transparent)??


----------



## Suphanat

*Here i come I just tracked me down to make headphones. I'm looking for a pair of headphones and a sound control pad*


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Suphanat said:


> *Here i come I just tracked me down to make headphones. I'm looking for a pair of headphones and a sound control pad*


This group/thread is for in ear monitors


----------



## Suphanat

[QUOTE = "dhruvmeena96, โพสต์: 15700363, สมาชิก: 413452"]
กลุ่ม / เธรดนี้ใช้สำหรับหูฟังในหู
[/ quote]
ฉันต้องการเรซิ่น and crosover Sorry, I wrote it wrong


----------



## goozaman

If I were to make a 2-way system with balanced armatures, would it be better with 1x low end and 1x high end, or 2x full range BA's?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

goozaman said:


> If I were to make a 2-way system with balanced armatures, would it be better with 1x low end and 1x high end, or 2x full range BA's?


2x fullrange are easy as beginner 
Cross system has learning curve but more worthwhile on spec point of view


----------



## mattmatt

stephensynanta16 said:


> @itsnotLupus here's ur masm7 shell bro
> 
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/190rFc3jcUGcKHEpc7sxnaZiVnixkpdHK/view?usp=sharing


Do we still need the dampers for this?


----------



## Davezvg (Sep 8, 2020)

.


----------



## stephensynanta16

mattmatt said:


> Do we still need the dampers for this?


Yes


----------



## Gene6ix

what is benefit for connect  2 *Ci-22955 in series or parallel ?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Gene6ix said:


> what is benefit for connect  2 *Ci-22955 in series or parallel ?


Series
Advantage are
higher inductance shown to circuit, passively very micro level lowpass but nice texture bass if we talk in psychoacoustics
More power handling(double watt handling but also more resistive so you take more volume knob turn to reach required MV)
-3dB from single driver in sensitivity
Way less distortion

And easily low passed with circuit and dampers and way easily integrated in multi way iem


----------



## musmecca

I joined June 1st and read every post and followed every link since then...I have a large spiral notebook full of ideas and pics thanks to you guys!  It has been fascinating to see the evolution of IEM's over the years and how all the great contributors have pushed the ball upward. I am experienced in electronics and have already successfully made multiple shells (thanks shiloh, force,eunice, dhruv, furco, xymordos, piotrus, jedrula, maodi....this is easy if people would simply read). My question revolves around using the SR6438 as a full range in combination with other drivers for bass, mids and highs. I am seeking a full stage with no flab in the bass...but very tight...bass has to be impactful but clear...should be able to do Geddy Lee and Chevelle with no problem without being muddy or thuddy.  Others asked in the past but I never saw anyone explain or even propose a successful build incorporating the SR's.   I 've already re shelled my westones and some old audeze, so not a total beginner and I feel I have my "average setups" covered. I have my functioning umic-1 so can can do baseline analysis....anyone with any ideas? Of course if anyone thinks I'm going down the wrong rabbit-hole, please let me know.  I'm happy to experiment and report.


----------



## stephensynanta16

musmecca said:


> I joined June 1st and read every post and followed every link since then...I have a large spiral notebook full of ideas and pics thanks to you guys!  It has been fascinating to see the evolution of IEM's over the years and how all the great contributors have pushed the ball upward. I am experienced in electronics and have already successfully made multiple shells (thanks shiloh, force,eunice, dhruv, furco, xymordos, piotrus, jedrula, maodi....this is easy if people would simply read). My question revolves around using the SR6438 as a full range in combination with other drivers for bass, mids and highs. I am seeking a full stage with no flab in the bass...but very tight...bass has to be impactful but clear...should be able to do Geddy Lee and Chevelle with no problem without being muddy or thuddy.  Others asked in the past but I never saw anyone explain or even propose a successful build incorporating the SR's.   I 've already re shelled my westones and some old audeze, so not a total beginner and I feel I have my "average setups" covered. I have my functioning umic-1 so can can do baseline analysis....anyone with any ideas? Of course if anyone thinks I'm going down the wrong rabbit-hole, please let me know.  I'm happy to experiment and report.


SR is quite great, yet odd driver, @dhruvmeena96 and me has successfully build a good single driver iem based on SR, its a good driver, has great mids but... 

Difficult to implement in multi driver config. Due to its size and shape. Other driver may end up in not so ideal position & orientation. I'd still prefer regular rectangular BA for multi driver.


----------



## musmecca

stephensynanta16 said:


> SR is quite great, yet odd driver, @dhruvmeena96 and me has successfully build a good single driver iem based on SR, its a good driver, has great mids but...
> 
> Difficult to implement in multi driver config. Due to its size and shape. Other driver may end up in not so ideal position & orientation. I'd still prefer regular rectangular BA for multi driver.


Thanks for the reply. I think what drew me to it in the woofer category was how linear it was from 100 up to 1K HZ, whereas th CI and Hodvtec begin to dip as they reach 1K. Did you guys have any success at all? I have big ears and stock of SR's! I have noted that very few manufacturers have SR's in their lineup,  so they can't be that easy to use in spite of the fact they are very cheap...


----------



## cyph3r

Hi all, 

I recently got a sample of Bellsing 260C90021 (short BRC260 hereafter) which are kinda like clones of the well known dual driver module Knowles GQ-30783-000 and I thought it would be interesting to make a direct comprison. I subsequently performed a number of side-by-side tests in order to investigate similarities. 
I thought you guys would be interested in a short report:

1)    *Appearance*
Both the GQ and the BRC260 look like they are the same. Look at the side by side picture and you can conclude that there are virtually no differences to be seen by eye. Low frequency driver width as measured using a precision caliper confirms this observation, the dimensions are the same to the first digit after comma. All BRC260 had the same width, demonstrating substantial consistency. 












The only observable differences are

-    The PCB
While the layout is exactly the same (serial resistor 0.2 ohm on mid low driver, a cap serial on the high frequency driver, did not measure). On the BRC260 the PCB looks kind of lower quality with lots of flux residues and open vias. The GQ PCB look much better, very clean with gold plated solder pads, tented vias and no flux anywhere. Interestingly if you carefully on the backside of the PCBs, the high frequency driver is connected in reverse polariy on the BS versus the GQ. Bellsing says their drivers incl PCBs are ROHS compliant, I have to accept that because you’d have to perform ICP-OES or something like that to test whether any heavy metals impurities are present. 

- Sound port, looks slightly different but nothing to complain about here.

*
2)    Measurements*
One interesting nondestructive test to probe inner workings of balanced armature drivers are impedance spectra. I have measured impedance of both, a group of 4 GQs and one group of 4 BRC260s and is an direct comparison of those (all with the same setup, x-Axis log-impedance in Ohms, y-axis: frequency in Hz; not much going on below 300Hz hence not shown):





The yellowish curves are the BRC260, the darker traces with average higher impedance are GQs. Its evident that among each driver type group there is very good consistency (apart from the one grey curve which is one of the four BRC260 drivers that really looks odd, don’t know why). There are also quite some differences in impedance between GQ and BRC260 in general pointing towards difference in construction (materials, coils) inside the package. RMS impedance of the GQs from this data are 56 ohms versus 49 ohms in the BRC260s. So, BRC260 appear to have overall slightly lower impedance with less amplitude (GQs peak at slighlty below 3 kHz at above 140 ohms and 190ohms at ca 6.7 Hz) which could be a tiny advantage for lower-powered amplifiers such as those in most mobile phones. The one BRC260 driver that has a markedly different impedance spectrum worries me a bit. I haven’t tested that one in full but this could point to issues. If I have time I may update on that later.

Onto acoustic frequency response, I just compare one of each drivers with each other as I had no time to solder up all of the BRC260s. termination was a 1cmx1.5mmID acoustic tube to my setup (For those raising fingers now: I have a DIY setup, don’t bother to ask for IEC / DIN accuracy or references etc; what counts here are relative results).








Relative to each other, I found the two drivers to nearly identical within margins of measurement error typically observed in my setup, with the BRC260 have a bit of a deeper dip at ca 9 kHz. And thats it more or less. Its not really objective, but I also listened to both driver modules at the same time (in one ear BRC260 in the other GQ), I could not hear any difference in a nearly identical setup but that’s only anecdotal evidence.

*3) Conclusion* 
Actually I don’t know who invented this dual driver module with integrated crossover concept was first, but I do believe that Knowles came up with the very successful GQ module in first place several years ago. So if Bellsing came in second afterwards, they either did a meticulous reengineering job or they get some kind of OEM from the same factory where Knowles produces: Both chassis and sonic performance are virtually identical. I am pretty sure the untrained operator would not be able to distinguish the drivers in the shop if you don’t have a look at bottom markings (so beware when purchasing GQs from other than official sources..).  

Impedance hints to slight internal built differences which apparently have no impact on sonic performance.

The GQ is a very successful module with many listeners appreciating it out of the box. It may be quite obvious to make an exact replacement with identical dimensions that fits already existing earphone platforms so manufacturers could make an easy switch with no one noticing.  Why should you switch? Well current retail price of the GQ is at (on Mouser / Digikey you get them for 27 – 35 USD depending on quantity and the BRC260 are on average 10USD cheaper per piece, moving 20 USD from your COGs to your margin which may be quite a percentage depending on your pricing strategy and translate to quite some earnings on mid / high volume sales). 

In the end what will also be important is reliability and quality. As said above impedance could hint to different materials used for the internals with unknown longevity track record. You don’t want customers returning your IEMs after a few months for some malfunctioning drivers. Here I don’t have any experience yet with BRC260s (I am sure the Sampler I got was handpicked, don’t know what the variability of the BRC260 is when you order and test like 50 – 100 of ‘em). Anyone has any "statistically robust" experience with Bellsing drivers?


----------



## tirrorex (Jul 13, 2020)

Hello, it's been a while since i went here.
The reason is my friend was looking for bluetooth earphones and i bumped into the FOSTER TM2 which comes with mmcx connector.
Triggering my need for a ciem again (yeah i never managed to motivate myself to do the shells...)

So, anyone here tried to go the 3d resin priting road?
I know some people did hollow shells with classic 3d printers.
Basically 3dhub has a category for resin printing :
https://www.3dhubs.com/3d-printing/plastic/resin/
I have to do some research on what is safe for the human hear for i guess at least one of those will do.

Did you guys talk about colors in the thread? I've seen some sick colors on this :
http://www.kumitatelab.com/images/companies/1/KumitateLabDesignBook2017-2018.pdf

I found someone willing to scan the molds i got from the audiologist and make the 3d model for me so that is sweet.
The next part is the electronics, i still have my old parts 
knowlers gk-31732-000
knowles bf-1861-000

But if i remember my last conversation in this post those are out of date nowaydays.
Even though i will mostly use those for sports and commutes, considering the price i will pay for the resin 3d printing i might want to go high-end on this.
But i am not sure i will hear the difference due to the bluetooth connection :/

I listen mainly to techno hardcore (angerfirst and the likes), from rock to metal (basically anything from metallica to slipknot including nightwish and lacuna coil) and some french touch music like daft punk. 

Will scroll throught the messages i saved as you guys gave me some good tips last time but that was more than a year ago i think.

Also since i will go resin, is there ANY way to make the shells reusable?
That would greatly impact my decision on the electronics, if i can remove the drivers afterwards i won't bother and use what i have and call it a day.


----------



## tirrorex (Jul 14, 2020)

et.haan said:


> my bad, I think I used the wrong uploader


Dammn, this looks dope 
What specs are those ?


----------



## cyph3r

tirrorex said:


> Hello, it's been a while since i went here.
> The reason is my friend was looking for bluetooth earphones and i bumped into the FOSTER TM2 which comes with mmcx connector.
> Triggering my need for a ciem again (yeah i never managed to motivate myself to do the shells...)
> 
> ...


standard SLA resin 3D printing has good accuracy and may be right for the task you described above. When designing your shell based on the scan take the design guidelines into account and ideally get with the service supplier in contact upfront to avoid unecessary iteratitions due to failed prints. But it will take some time to develop and still some iterative prints may be required to get things right. Also, 3D hubs is not always the best option. Google for local suppliers.


----------



## jameswalker

I am still in the research stage of this. I have probably wanted to make a pair for a couple of years now but never took the plunge. Now is the time. 

I plan to visit the audiologist once they have opened again to kick things off. 

Next, I will play with moulding. The initial aim will be to make a nice fitting set of solid ear plugs and play with patterns. No drivers at this stage. 

After that, I can chose drivers. I am thinking:

Knowles GV-32830
Vs
Sonion 38D1XJ007 and Knowles TWFK

I am a basshead at heart, so I will need decent bass, but I don't want that at the cost of mids / highs. I like a fun sounding IEM, like the aurisonics bravo series which I currently use, paired with EQ / AMP. So which of my above driver options might be best? Or, are there better choices? I don't want to go too complex, I guess max of 4 BAs as per the above based on difficulty of fitment. 

Primary use case: while at work in the office, listening to music. 

Thanks!


----------



## dhruvmeena96

jameswalker said:


> I am still in the research stage of this. I have probably wanted to make a pair for a couple of years now but never took the plunge. Now is the time.
> 
> I plan to visit the audiologist once they have opened again to kick things off.
> 
> ...


38D1XJ + TWFK


----------



## jameswalker

dhruvmeena96 said:


> 38D1XJ + TWFK



Much of a difference? Or have we reached a level of diminishing returns? The graph of the 38 sure does look good!


----------



## jameswalker

dhruvmeena96 I have been reading some of your opinions on driver choices earlier in this thread. How would the BS6 with zobel compare to the 38D1XJ + TWFK from a bass point of view? I have ruled the GV out. Thanks


----------



## dhruvmeena96

jameswalker said:


> dhruvmeena96 I have been reading some of your opinions on driver choices earlier in this thread. How would the BS6 with zobel compare to the 38D1XJ + TWFK from a bass point of view? I have ruled the GV out. Thanks


More flexibility on tuning 

With 38D1XJ and TWFK


----------



## GUNHO

Anyone know or have any bs6 drivers for sale


----------



## jameswalker

Soundlink has them in stock.


----------



## jameswalker

dhruvmeena96  Earlier in thread you mentioned this:

Just use L-pad on woofer
And use TWFK in full range with WBFK part crossed at 470nF

Do you have any R values for the L pad? Are they actually required? Afterall, if I am specifying the baddest bass BA there is, why would I then wish to attenuate it?

As for the TQFK, high passing the WBFK part with 470nF, does taking away its lower portion of signal change much? If this was a requirement, why does it not seem more commonplace?

I am not against doing either of these things, just wish to know more. 

Thanks!


----------



## itsnotLupus

jameswalker said:


> Soundlink has them in stock.


What am I doing wrong?
I still can't see them available "*Sorry, this item is no longer available!*"
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32970539437.html


----------



## jameswalker

https://www.aliexpress.com/i/32970539437.html

Ah yes, the /i page looks like it is in stock, but the /item page shows that it is not.


----------



## musmecca

So I am doing Furco's original GQ/Rab design of GQ+Rab. GQ has green damper midway and grey just after...Rab has Grey midway....both are 2mm tubes, 20 and 15 length respectively. My question is do I remove the black covering from the RAB and will this increase the bass once the case is sealed? The graph looks pretty flat with a slight peak between 2-3k.  Also, I used the GQ30710 instead of the 30783 as it was what mouser had....it has an impedance of 90, which is higher than the impedance of the GQ30783 at 38. REW output link is here:

https://imgur.com/a/SgvhAtT

Just want to get it straight before sealing it up! I do want more bass, flat is ok, but peaked at midrange may not be to my liking....thoughts?


----------



## grooveriders

Im very intersted to making my own iem but I have no knowledge or experince with electronics. I know that some drivers come installed with pcb (where you wire to the jack connector) but how about hybrid iem where there are multiple pcb (eg. 2 set of drivers with seperate pcb, or BA+DD). How are the wires joined ?
Also interested in the Sonion est driver how do I wire it, is it possible to diy a hybrid or tribrid without experience?


----------



## LeaveMasonAlone

jameswalker said:


> Do you have any R values for the L pad? Are they actually required? Afterall, if I am specifying the baddest bass BA there is, why would I then wish to attenuate it?


4.7Ω parallel 5.3Ω series
It is the baddest bass BA there is, but without attenuation it's just too loud. Feel free to try it without, but I don't think it'll be as fun as it sounds on paper  I'll throw up some graphs from my iMM-6... if I figure out how to actually record a response graph 😓 can't figure out the audiotool app.


----------



## jameswalker

LeaveMasonAlone said:


> 4.7Ω parallel 5.3Ω series
> It is the baddest bass BA there is, but without attenuation it's just too loud. Feel free to try it without, but I don't think it'll be as fun as it sounds on paper  I'll throw up some graphs from my iMM-6... if I figure out how to actually record a response graph 😓 can't figure out the audiotool app.


Thanks, understood. I will use your supplied values. I am tempted to try without... but thats a bit of a pain!


----------



## vitaliy belo

Hello everyone, I hope you’re all healthy and feeling optimistic! 

We’d love to expand our R&D Department. If you, or someone you know, lives in the US and might be interested in working for 64 Audio, please email me directly at: vitaliy@64audio.com

Thanks for your time!!
-Vitaliy B.


----------



## mattmatt

vitaliy belo said:


> Hello everyone, I hope you’re all healthy and feeling optimistic!
> 
> We’d love to expand our R&D Department. If you, or someone you know, lives in the US and might be interested in working for 64 Audio, please email me directly at: vitaliy@64audio.com
> 
> ...


Would love to join the team, sadly I cannot  

Good luck finding someone!


----------



## musmecca

Finished GQ+RAB shells here in imgur:

https://imgur.com/gallery/YduT1jl

Look great, and sounded great at low volumes, but the bass absoloutely flubbed out at higher volume....I mean really farted! I thought it was because I had used the gq710 instead of the 738 which may cause my flac player (plenue1) to crap out. However, I checked the ohm of both sides of my new IEM's and they were right at 17.2 ohms. I then compared to 30 ohms for my Alclair studio 4's which are MUCH louder. Anyone guess what the issue may be? I did remove the port covering on the RAB....


----------



## Farquarl

vitaliy belo said:


> Hello everyone, I hope you’re all healthy and feeling optimistic!
> 
> We’d love to expand our R&D Department. If you, or someone you know, lives in the US and might be interested in working for 64 Audio, please email me directly at: vitaliy@64audio.com
> 
> ...


I wish i lived in the US  Sadly from germany it is a bit of a commute.


----------



## mattmatt

Farquarl said:


> I wish i lived in the US  Sadly from germany it is a bit of a commute.


What more from Philippines 😂


----------



## Farquarl

Okay guys,
This is my second try of the 5 driver 3 way configuration.
I again 3D printed the shells and finished them with a carbon fiber face plate. The Logo is from the musician himself.
For some this built might look familiar, thats because i allready build these IEMs but they got stolen in the DHL delivery chain 

I hope this time they make it through, wish me luck 

Ps.
There is no polishing done yet so the defects you see on the faceplate will be gone.


----------



## HenacanPodwell (Aug 2, 2020)

Hello everyone! I am very new into diem and have been reading the post here and the google docs for weeks. I have gotten myself RAB32257 and ED29689 and tried to make single driver iem with them. RAB32257 was fine until I accidentally pulled off the solder pad. But I would like something that sounded much more completed.
I would like to ask for recommended drivers that would not break my wallet, I am thinking of a 2 driver configuration and something more towards mid centric with good treble extension. I am looking at knowles cl22955 and knowles DTEC30265 as low to mid and 29689 as mid to high.
Also how are bellsing drivers? I know about the knowles lawsuit against bellsing, but their drivers are cheaper, are they actually similar or they are much worse?
Also I am actually kind of interested in what are the best 50USD cost configuration can one make? I assume that would be something like single driver RAB?
Thanks in advance!


----------



## Farquarl

musmecca said:


> Finished GQ+RAB shells here in imgur:
> 
> https://imgur.com/gallery/YduT1jl
> 
> Look great, and sounded great at low volumes, but the bass absoloutely flubbed out at higher volume....I mean really farted! I thought it was because I had used the gq710 instead of the 738 which may cause my flac player (plenue1) to crap out. However, I checked the ohm of both sides of my new IEM's and they were right at 17.2 ohms. I then compared to 30 ohms for my Alclair studio 4's which are MUCH louder. Anyone guess what the issue may be? I did remove the port covering on the RAB....


They look great, i like how the wood and the color of the resin match each other. 
Conserning your problem. How did you wire your GQ/RAB?


----------



## mattmatt

Farquarl said:


> Okay guys,
> This is my second try of the 5 driver 3 way configuration.
> I again 3D printed the shells and finished them with a carbon fiber face plate. The Logo is from the musician himself.
> For some this built might look familiar, thats because i allready build these IEMs but they got stolen in the DHL delivery chain
> ...



This looks so great bud! <3


----------



## Farquarl

HenacanPodwell said:


> Also I am actually kind of interested in what are the best 50USD cost configuration can one make? I assume that would be something like single driver RAB?
> Thanks in advance!


Thats a question no on can answer since tastes are very different. My guess would be a RAB/RAF or ED, dynamic driver combination.


----------



## musmecca

Farquarl said:


> They look great, i like how the wood and the color of the resin match each other.
> Conserning your problem. How did you wire your GQ/RAB?


I wired them in parallell, just like furco's original design...no l-pad, no resistors to damp...just the stock tubes with dampers. I did add an extra filter (pretty sure it was a 3300....i'm not home to check) at the end of the GQ to attenuate the treble, which i thought was too bright. I suspected this was a function of the the higher impedence of the gq-710 causing an extension of the treble as compared to the gq783 I was SUPPOSED to use...did I miss something?

Regarding the color, I learned lot on this build. I used Shilohs method of making a clear iem, then coating the inside with a reflective purple nail polish. I did a neat trick to get polish on curved surfaces inside...I filled the inside with distlled water then floated the purple polish on top. I then used a syringe to suck the water out...as the water level fell it took the polish to the sides in a nice even layer, much like how they do intricate nail patterns at a salon, just with one color. I used resin obsession stain to match the wood, then dipped the entire thing into laq3 (plugged the tubes with toothpicks and covered the mmcx with pipe tape..works great!), put each on a rotator twice to even the finish before putting them in my cure chamber.

On your printed shells, how much sanding and final buffing is required? You have a very nice clean finish!


----------



## Farquarl (Aug 1, 2020)

musmecca said:


> I wired them in parallell, just like furco's original design...no l-pad, no resistors to damp...just the stock tubes with dampers. I did add an extra filter (pretty sure it was a 3300....i'm not home to check) at the end of the GQ to attenuate the treble, which i thought was too bright. I suspected this was a function of the the higher impedence of the gq-710 causing an extension of the treble as compared to the gq783 I was SUPPOSED to use...did I miss something?
> 
> Regarding the color, I learned lot on this build. I used Shilohs method of making a clear iem, then coating the inside with a reflective purple nail polish. I did a neat trick to get polish on curved surfaces inside...I filled the inside with distlled water then floated the purple polish on top. I then used a syringe to suck the water out...as the water level fell it took the polish to the sides in a nice even layer, much like how they do intricate nail patterns at a salon, just with one color. I used resin obsession stain to match the wood, then dipped the entire thing into laq3 (plugged the tubes with toothpicks and covered the mmcx with pipe tape..works great!), put each on a rotator twice to even the finish before putting them in my cure chamber.
> 
> On your printed shells, how much sanding and final buffing is required? You have a very nice clean finish!


A quick look on the datasheet tells me that both GQ models have a nasty peek at 6k which sound harsh. Just from the datasheet i like the the 710 more which fits the higher impedance of the RAB quite good. I see no reason why your base should be effected tho. What do you mean by flubbed?

On regards of sanding:
I did not sand a whole lot, just a couple of passes with 320 grit sandpaper in a rotary tool. Also i did not polish anything yet. I still need to polish the faceplate as it is a bit uneven.

Here are some pictures how it looked before:


----------



## musmecca

Farquarl said:


> A quick look on the datasheet tells me that both GQ models have a nasty peek at 6k which sound harsh. Just from the datasheet i like the the 710 more which fits the higher impedance of the RAB quite good. I see no reason why your base should be effected tho. What do you mean by flubbed?
> 
> On regards of sanding:
> I did not sand a whole lot, just a couple of passes with 320 grit sandpaper in a rotary tool. Also i did not polish anything yet. I still need to polish the faceplate as it is a bit uneven.
> ...


When I say flubbed, I played Tool's "invincible" and the speed was not there..it lost all punch, speed, and response...verging on heavy distortion. At low volume, it is fine. Is the bass predminanty coming from the GQ and would it possibly be a fix to go to a smaller tube?  I know a smaller tube would be more low pass and it may help attenuate the nasty 6k peak, yet i have no idea how to calculate that size and length!


----------



## Farquarl

I guess i would try to dampen the GQ to remove a bit of the sharpness maybe 2200 ohm?! And for additional bass i would heavily filter the RAB with 4700ohm and a 2mm OD 1mm ID tube of say 18-25mm.  But i would need to try this as well just a quick shot.


----------



## musmecca

Farquarl said:


> I guess i would try to dampen the GQ to remove a bit of the sharpness maybe 2200 ohm?! And for additional bass i would heavily filter the RAB with 4700ohm and a 2mm OD 1mm ID tube of say 18-25mm.  But i would need to try this as well just a quick shot.


I may try that as well....if I beat you to it I'll post my results!


----------



## Farquarl

musmecca said:


> I may try that as well....if I beat you to it I'll post my results!


Oh you will defenitly beat me to it i don´t have a GC and im currently not planning on getting one. Wish you best of luck!


----------



## jameswalker

I am just soldering wires to my drivers, the litz wire from aliexpress seems too thin. A quick search reveals it is AWG 46. Max current capacity for this gauge is ~0.01A, whereas generally running 100mW at 1V RMS, you could expect a current of 0.1A. 10 times more. 

Is this stuff up to the job? Am I worrying over nothing? 

If we strive for decent 3.5mm to MMCX cables of say AWG26, isn't it a huge bottleneck if the IEM has 46AWG internally?

Shall I just buy some multistrand AWG32 teflon coated cable given its overall low outer diameter?


----------



## Farquarl

jameswalker said:


> I am just soldering wires to my drivers, the litz wire from aliexpress seems too thin. A quick search reveals it is AWG 46. Max current capacity for this gauge is ~0.01A, whereas generally running 100mW at 1V RMS, you could expect a current of 0.1A. 10 times more.
> 
> Is this stuff up to the job? Am I worrying over nothing?
> 
> ...


Did you measure the diameter? I can hardly imagine that the wire is 46 AWG =  0,0399mm i think i somewhere read that it is 0,17mm thick (33 AWG).
Don´t worrie about the load the wire has plenty of headroom.


----------



## jameswalker

Good point, will measure. It is 0.17mm including outer insulation. 0.14mm excluding, so thats AWG35. Max current of 0.044A, still slightly under the calculated requirement of 0.1A. 

Should I not worry? Others have used this exact wire without problem? It is going to be driving the 38D1XJ as hard as I dare so will be making good use of the wire!


----------



## Farquarl (Aug 2, 2020)

Where do you get those max current ratings from? Yes others are using this wire without any problems. Don´t forget that it is silver coated which reduces the resistance and 0,1A constand is pretty unrealistic i would say. Think about it, some of those drivers reach 120dB at that power which is not a loudness level you would be listening music to 

Wait i just assumed that you used the wire from Soundlink (Estron) Maybe you could provide a link?


----------



## jameswalker

I used that exact wire yes. So I am worrying for nothing? I am using a table that we used at work for current ratings. It is continuous rather than transient but still I always try to adhere.


----------



## Farquarl

Yes this wire is tried and proofed! Don't worry  would you care to share this list of yours? I never found a list that went below 32awg


----------



## jameswalker

It goes to 50 at work, hard copy, but this one is the same to 40:
https://www.ksterminals.co.th/en/types-of-wires-awg-en/


----------



## jameswalker

New line of enquiry... Do I wire the 38D1XJ in series or parallel?


----------



## Farquarl (Aug 2, 2020)

jameswalker said:


> New line of enquiry... Do I wire the 38D1XJ in series or parallel?


In series or parallel to what? If its your only driver there isnt much of a choice 
Thanks for the list!
Edit: I thought it was allready wired like the HODVTEC, which is in parallel. I would go in parallel as well for this one.


----------



## Farquarl

Look it says 0,100 V RMS!, so that combined with the impedance of minimal 10 ohm makes for a current of 0,1/10=0,01A. So no need to worry!


----------



## jameswalker

In series / parallel to itself, appears to have 2 sets of contacts.


----------



## Farquarl

jameswalker said:


> In series / parallel to itself, appears to have 2 sets of contacts.


 Yes, i noticed that not all variants of that driver are allready wired. I would still wire them in parallel or get one which is allready wired that way.


----------



## jameswalker

I would also have guessed parallel so that they both get an equal share, rather than having only half the potential voltage. But I seem to recall someone wiring them in series earlier in this thread? Had a quick search, couldn't confirm....


----------



## Farquarl

There is your answer


----------



## jameswalker

Good evening, 

I just made my first shells and this is how they came out. They are between 1.2mm and 1.8mm. I am pleased with the results! I think? I will elaborate. 

I tried a pair to see how they fit. Very good; at first. Total seal. Amazed that the process worked. But if I move my mouth a bit or look around etc, they loosen ever so slightly. Not enough to break the seal; far from, but enough that I can tell that the seal is not as good as first insertion. Quickly corrected by a gentle press on the shell. Its still sealed after I move my jaw or whatever, just not 100% perfect. Perhaps only 80%. 

Is this normal? If so, fine. If not, should I start again?

I had the impressions done professionally, with a somewhat closed jaw. Just biting my tongue gently. My use case is at a PC so my jaw is basically always closed like that so I wanted maximum comfort and not an open mouth impression. 

Should I look to getting a partially open jaw impression done instead? Will this offer worse comfort while my jaw is closed?

Should the final lacquer coats be sufficient to offer a slightly improved seal if I move? How much thickness does 1 coat add? Does anyone ever do multiple?

I dipped my impressions wax just 1 time before the casting process. 

Any guidance appreciated. Here are some pictures of tonight's progress. Straight out of the UV lamp then cleaned, nothing else done:


----------



## HenacanPodwell

jameswalker said:


> Good evening,
> 
> I just made my first shells and this is how they came out. They are between 1.2mm and 1.8mm. I am pleased with the results! I think? I will elaborate.
> 
> ...


I believe that is normal, it depends when and what you are doing when you are listening to the pairs when picking between closed jaw / open jaw. I believe people like musician usually take open jaw impression.


----------



## HenacanPodwell

Farquarl said:


> Thats a question no on can answer since tastes are very different. My guess would be a RAB/RAF or ED, dynamic driver combination.


Thank you! I will do some trials and errors until I get them right!


----------



## jameswalker

OK so you suggest I continue as I am, rather than get an open jaw which may be more forgiving for movements? I certainly don't want to compromise comfort while just sat (jaw closed) all day in front of the PC. They are in for hours at a time.


----------



## Farquarl

jameswalker said:


> OK so you suggest I continue as I am, rather than get an open jaw which may be more forgiving for movements? I certainly don't want to compromise comfort while just sat (jaw closed) all day in front of the PC. They are in for hours at a time.


What you can do is to add some material (wax) where the tragus is. This will apply a little pressure into your canal. The tissue at the tragus is soft and you will not notice a bit more material there.


----------



## jameswalker

Could I apply lacquer and cure it that way, thereby using the shells I already have? Its a good idea, keeps it a little better held into the canal.


----------



## Farquarl

jameswalker said:


> Could I apply lacquer and cure it that way, thereby using the shells I already have? Its a good idea, keeps it a little better held into the canal.


I don't see a reason why not.


----------



## jameswalker

I will do it and see how it turns out! Thanks

Edit: How much thinner is a lacquer layer compared with a wax layer when say dipping in paraffin?


----------



## Farquarl

Hmm my guess is that the wax is around 3 times as thick. So the lacquer will be 0,1mm and the wax 0,3mm


----------



## musmecca

I try to do as much with the waxing of the impressions as I can, as any fit or finish issues will have to be addressed later by either buffing, sanding, or dipping as you and Farquari suggest and it tends to be more time consuming.  Jameswalker, what wax did you use? I use the dent-rite red wax as suggested elsewhere in this thread as it has a very controlled melt point (190 F) and a very controlled cool down. The target is (120 F), but I found that I could achieve a thinner layer at 128F, or thicker by two coats. You have to be carefull as two coats can make a HUGE oversize in your iem.  I have completely dipped my IEM's into a shotglass filled with Lac3....it did give a very slight additional fit,  but I did it primarily for the finish which is much better than brushing. My first thought is that lac 3 can de-laminate, so if I was going to build up I would use my normal dreve photoplast and not the lac.


----------



## jameswalker

I dipped in paraffin and used fotoplast to form the shell, will be using the fotoplast lacquer too. 

Had I known I would have had to adjust the shell at the tragus, I would have done it with paraffin just as I did to touch up tiny imperfections in the original silicone.


----------



## musmecca

The biggest difference between paraffin and the dent-rite...the dent rite is almost like a vinyl layer...it is very cohesive, while paraffin is very soft and can smear and crumble.  I actually take the waxed impression and carefully put it in my ear to check the seal before I cast and it doesn't come off, smear, or de-laminate. Useless if doing an impression for someone else, but handy for me!


----------



## topito

Hi guys, 

After building a CIEM last year and losing it while moving to another country, I wanted to try my luck on some GV-32830 's. I was wondering what dampers and cable length you lot recommend. The GV's featured in my build last year as well but with reds and greens, and I did not uncover the bass ports, something I intend to do now. 

Also, if you have any tips on how to cut the tubes at the nozzle and how to finish the nozzle off so you can't see the tube outline, I would be extremely grateful. I remember this being a pain last year.

Finally, I was looking for input on how you make faceplate art. Do you use decals covered with fotoplast for the logos and graphics?

So far I have found this thread to be extremely useful, and wish to thank all contributors for sharing their knowledge.


----------



## jameswalker

Where are you sourcing dent-rite? And how do you apply? Use a hot air station with a metal implement?


----------



## musmecca

jameswalker said:


> Where are you sourcing dent-rite? And how do you apply? Use a hot air station with a metal implement?


I got mine off of ebay...link to the product is here:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/BASE-PLATE...riorityMailPaddedFlatRateEnvelope!38138!US!-1

I put it in a metal can on the stove and melt. I have my impressions on a paperclip so i can dip and then set up to dry.  I posted some pics here:

https://imgur.com/gallery/JgHFbXG


----------



## stephensynanta16 (Aug 8, 2020)

Hi guys, its been a while since i posted.

Here's the latest build me & @dhruvmeena96  did. The descendant of the quad rab series.





Now its hexa driver, we scavenge some extra 2x tweeter from KZ 🤣. The latest quad has no tube & no damper. Peak & dip is controlled & managed by using acoustic structure.

Transient speed is no slouch, warp speed, distortion is seriously low. This iem is dangerous to listen to, due to the very low distortion, i keep increasing the volume after a while.

Currently, kz tweeter is helding it back, those tweeter cant keep up with the speed of the quad.

Will post the graph soon


----------



## HenacanPodwell (Aug 8, 2020)

jameswalker said:


> OK so you suggest I continue as I am, rather than get an open jaw which may be more forgiving for movements? I certainly don't want to compromise comfort while just sat (jaw closed) all day in front of the PC. They are in for hours at a time.


I don't think you will be speaking to anyone while using it. Closed jaw seems alright. Or you could try adding wax like the others have suggested. Good luck with your build!


----------



## IndyAudio14

How to wire two sonion 3800 Ba drivers parallel


----------



## ForceMajeure (Aug 8, 2020)

IndyAudio14 said:


> How to wire two sonion 3800 Ba drivers parallel



Assuming you wire the 3800 in parallel in the 1st place



Then you would need to connect another driver that way

l

I wouldn't recommend doing so though. usually it would be better to have 2 wired in series (with their parallel wiring for each single unit). I guess you'd need to check with the rest of your config to see how it pans out though.

UPDATE!
since the vents on one driver would be obstructed that way ^ you'd need to flip one around.
Thus this is the correct way.


----------



## IndyAudio14

ForceMajeure said:


> Assuming you wire the 3800 in parallel in the 1st place
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## ForceMajeure

Check the update on the previous post.


----------



## IndyAudio14

THANK YOU SO MUCH.I HAVE TWO 38AJ000 AND TWO 38D1X000 DRIVERS .SO FOR USED ONE 38AJ000 IN SERIES WITH NOT MUCH LUCK


ForceMajeure said:


> Assuming you wire the 3800 in parallel in the 1st place
> 
> 
> 
> ...


THANK YOU DO MUCH.I HAVE TWO 38AJ000 AND TWO 38D1XJ007 THE 38D1XJ000 IS NOT MEANT TO BE WIRING IN PARALLEL IS IT


----------



## ForceMajeure (Aug 8, 2020)

IndyAudio14 said:


> THANK YOU SO MUCH.I HAVE TWO 38AJ000 AND TWO 38D1X000 DRIVERS .SO FOR USED ONE 38AJ000 IN SERIES WITH NOT MUCH LUCK
> 
> THANK YOU DO MUCH.I HAVE TWO 38AJ000 AND TWO 38D1XJ007 THE 38D1XJ000 IS NOT MEANT TO BE WIRING IN PARALLEL IS IT



As a single unit you should be wiring the 38D1x in parallel or 38AJ as well. usually it's the better starting point, since you will have more bass levels that you can then control with resistance or L pad if you need to lower them. It's always easier to lower the spl of one driver than lowering the rest of the drivers in your config to match it especially once you have crossovers.

If you don't have enough SPL with one 38 then doubling it could help. now wiring the 2 in series or parallel is up to you. in term of inductance to the whole circuitry, often having the 2 drivers wired in series ends up better with multi BA configs despite the higher inductance

(Although technically speaking if you want faster bass you'd need lower inductance since it's the factor that resist the change in acceleration due to the current flow but that's too complicated to dive through)

it might even showcase more subbass and bass than having them wired in parallel depending on your config...but it's up to you. I have no idea if you've low passed the drivers or not etc...there are many factors that come into play. You will need to test things and see. what you are after is having more spl in bass and that's your 1st priority. 

If doubling drivers and wired in parallel or series still doesn't give you enough SPLs in the bass then you might need to think of a way to lower the sensitivity of the rest of your config maybe even consider changing drivers with higher impedance.


----------



## Aldo40

jameswalker said:


> Should I look to getting a partially open jaw impression done instead? Will this offer worse comfort while my jaw is closed?


Hi,
open jaws, it’s for singers. leave your jaw as when you listen to your music so normally
closed and relaxed.
a single dip in the wax is enough. apply an extra layer of resin around the channel that improves the fit,
because the print is just adjusted but not tight enough,
the varnish remains fine while the resin is thicker.
lightly sand the iem to make it matte and varnish at DREVE lake 3


----------



## mattmatt

stephensynanta16 said:


> Hi guys, its been a while since i posted.
> 
> Here's the latest build me & @dhruvmeena96  did. The descendant of the quad rab series.
> 
> ...


neat! will you be also uploading the schematics and STL?


----------



## musmecca (Aug 11, 2020)

musmecca said:


> I may try that as well....if I beat you to it I'll post my results!


OK, Farquarl so I beat you to it!  Here is what I did: The left earpiece in the graph (purple) has the original furco design. On the right is new design (dhrem)...4.5uf cap and 42 ohm resistor on the GQ, while I swapped out the tube on the RAB for a smaller 1mm with no dampers on anything. Still a nasty midrange peak, but it appears the spl of the bass picked up significantly on the new design which is what I wanted. It now would seem it's a matter of picking the correct damper...based upon the graph, any suggestions for what to use? I'll have one go as once I put them in I can't get them out...

Images here:

https://imgur.com/gallery/bWsxfF8


----------



## Farquarl

musmecca said:


> OK, Farquarl so I beat you to it!  Here is what I did: The left earpiece in the graph (purple) has the original furco design. On the right is new design (dhrem)...4.5uf cap and 42 ohm resistor on the GQ, while I swapped out the tube on the RAB for a smaller 1mm with no dampers on anything. Still a nasty midrange peak, but it appears the spl of the bass picked up significantly on the new design which is what I wanted. It now would seem it's a matter of picking the correct damper...based upon the graph, any suggestions for what to use? I'll have one go as once I put them in I can't get them out...
> 
> Images here:
> 
> https://imgur.com/gallery/bWsxfF8


Any reason why you put a high pass on that GQ? Cutoff frequency will be 850Hz which allows the midrange to pass but not the bass. Maybe just add a low pass to the RAB like 100-200uF and a 20ohm resistor.


----------



## musmecca

Farquarl said:


> Any reason why you put a high pass on that GQ? Cutoff frequency will be 850Hz which allows the midrange to pass but not the bass. Maybe just add a low pass to the RAB like 100-200uF and a 20ohm resistor.


Because I am an idiot!!!! If you look at my drawing and reference it to the original Eunice did with Dhruv on post 8298, I put the filter on the GQ instead of the RAB....I inverted the drivers!!!!  Arghhhh...guess I get to tear it apart again.....


----------



## tirrorex

cyph3r said:


> standard SLA resin 3D printing has good accuracy and may be right for the task you described above. When designing your shell based on the scan take the design guidelines into account and ideally get with the service supplier in contact upfront to avoid unecessary iteratitions due to failed prints. But it will take some time to develop and still some iterative prints may be required to get things right. Also, 3D hubs is not always the best option. Google for local suppliers.



The design will not be made by me. The guy who will scan the earmolds will also do the 3d file for the printer.
Hum, will try to find some local suppliers but i don't think i will be very lucky on this one


----------



## Farquarl (Aug 12, 2020)

tirrorex said:


> The design will not be made by me. The guy who will scan the earmolds will also do the 3d file for the printer.
> Hum, will try to find some local suppliers but i don't think i will be very lucky on this one


If anything fails send me a pm. I have a professional earmould software and Biocompatible resin.


----------



## mattmatt

Farquarl said:


> If anything fails send me a pm. I have a professional earmould software and Biocompatible resin.


+1 for Farqual!


----------



## musmecca

So I have been working on the scary build as designed by piotrus-g. Built by pc27618349 as well. Basically 2 CI's and a Twfk with a pretty complex crossover. If you guys are on, i'd appreciate the feedback as my two screenshots are attached....noticeable dip. I was thinking phase issue but I checked the wiring and all seemed correct. The other issue is I DID use tantalum caps...I had the correct values and always put positive to positive. I remember a discussion a while back where it was suggested you had to put tantalums in series then someone else said it didn't matter. I guess my question is does it matter and is this possibly my issue?
https://imgur.com/gallery/MQSZDAW


----------



## musmecca

On a positive note, been making some great face plates lately.  I've been cutting thin verners ( using a scroll saw) out of stabilized blocks then laying them on glass.  I then coat with photoplast using a sponge applicator. I let them sit for 5 minutes to get the bubbles out of the wood then give a last smear of photoplast before sandwiching between glass...make sure to press the glass together and you will see the voids get forced out. I then cure 5 min both sides then release. Usually a razor breaks the seal but sometimes a rubber mallet is necessary. Final produt has a glass like finish with no greasy residue...I simply trim. glue to body, sand and laq.

https://imgur.com/gallery/9DqOPsA


----------



## Farquarl

musmecca said:


> So I have been working on the scary build as designed by piotrus-g. Built by pc27618349 as well. Basically 2 CI's and a Twfk with a pretty complex crossover. If you guys are on, i'd appreciate the feedback as my two screenshots are attached....noticeable dip. I was thinking phase issue but I checked the wiring and all seemed correct. The other issue is I DID use tantalum caps...I had the correct values and always put positive to positive. I remember a discussion a while back where it was suggested you had to put tantalums in series then someone else said it didn't matter. I guess my question is does it matter and is this possibly my issue?
> https://imgur.com/gallery/MQSZDAW


Switch the polarity of the twfk of the one with the dip. 
Tantalums in series with what? Polarity on Tantalums doesn't matter too much in this application. However I would recommend using ceramic ones as they are better and cheap.


----------



## musmecca

Farquarl said:


> Switch the polarity of the twfk of the one with the dip.
> Tantalums in series with what? Polarity on Tantalums doesn't matter too much in this application. However I would recommend using ceramic ones as they are better and cheap.


So this is what I was building from...Pitrous-g design on page 265:

Alright here's the second one more fancy, more neutral (still quite fun! but more on the sub-bass side)
It's 4 way design for those who don't fear soldering since it's more complicated.









Note that the twfk isn't denoted as positive/negative in the above design. In looking at the twfk spec sheet I assumed the left black was NEGATIVE and the side with the caps was POSITIVE, so thats how I wired it. One thing that may affect the dip is I did overflow my solder a bit for the negative onto the "no connection" terminal in the center. I checked the ohms of both my twfk and they were right at 28 ohms each so I assumed I didn't mess up anything.  Your thoughts? I'll reverse them and see what happens...do you suggest I do the one with the dip or both twfks even though there isn't a pronounced dip in the other?

On the subject of tanatalums, series was with each other. For example having two 5 UF tanatlums with their negatives soldered together would yield a 10 UF cap with no polarity issues vs just using a 10 uf Tanatalum cap.  I agree with your assessment that it shouldn't matter as the polarity makes a difference in higher voltage applications where the dielectric can be broken down over time if wired incorrectly...plus this is ac, not dc correct?

You have been a great help! I actually swapped the caps/resistors to the low pass on my purple build as you suggested. The shift didn't yield exactly what I was looking for so you have prompted me to complete my project board test rig! Any tips or tricks on how you set yours up (if you have one) would be appreciated. I'll post graphs once I have made progress.


----------



## piotrus-g (Aug 13, 2020)

musmecca said:


> Note that the twfk isn't denoted as positive/negative in the above design. In looking at the twfk spec sheet I assumed the left black was NEGATIVE and the side with the caps was POSITIVE, so thats how I wired it.


The Red lines in the drawing are _positive _wires. Swapping polarity on TWFK is not that simple - see that the (now) negative pad has a wire connecting pads between both drivers.
I would say you either damaged one of the drivers or something is not right with your cross-over.
Start troubleshooting by measuring and comparing both CI set ups and then separately TWFKs. You should get a bit clearer idea where the problem is located.


musmecca said:


> On the subject of tanatalums, series was with each other. For example having two 5 UF tanatlums with their negatives soldered together would yield a 10 UF cap with no polarity issues vs just using a 10 uf Tanatalum cap.


Also caps capacity will be divided when wired in series and add up when wired in parallel. So the above is incorrect


----------



## musmecca

piotrus-g said:


> The Red lines in the drawing are _positive _wires. Swapping polarity on TWFK is not that simple - see that the (now) negative pad has a wire connecting pads between both drivers.
> I would say you either damaged one of the drivers or something is not right with your cross-over.
> Start troubleshooting by measuring and comparing both CI set ups and then separately TWFKs. You should get a bit clearer idea where the problem is located.


First let me say I'm honored you responded. You have contributed a ton on this site and it is much appreciated given you have a business to run. So I have attached 4 graphs:  The first green is the left as wired...slight dip. The second red line is with the TWFK unhooked completely....you may be on to something as it looks flat.  I thought this design would have a large bass boost....hmm. ( Are the vents for these ci's  on the top and could I have gotten glue in them? Also...how much bass do you pick up when sealing the IEM?)  Third graph in orange is the TWFK leads reversed. As you noted, it may not be as simple as swapping the leads. The last green is the right ear for reference.  I'd appreciate your feedback...do you think the tantalum caps are to blame? Happy to draw out my schematic....If the pics don't load, the link is here:

https://imgur.com/gallery/iIxjpoh

right one:
https://imgur.com/gallery/h5oNOw9


----------



## Farquarl

I think there is most likely something wrong with your crossover/polarity. How you you measure your responses? All these graphs look kind of weird to me. The fact that the Dip dissapears ´when you measure without the TWFK looks even more like a phase issue. I forgot that the TWFK is wired that way, maybe change the polarity of both CI´s as this would be easier. 
There are no vents on the CI so there is no way to block them.


----------



## musmecca

Also caps capacity will be divided when wired in series and add up when wired in parallel. So the above is incorrect
[/QUOTE]
Thanks for that. Is it a problem to use single Tanatalums (I put the + to +) or do you suggest always series/parallel?


----------



## musmecca

Farquarl said:


> I think there is most likely something wrong with your crossover/polarity. How you you measure your responses? All these graphs look kind of weird to me. The fact that the Dip dissapears ´when you measure without the TWFK looks even more like a phase issue. I forgot that the TWFK is wired that way, maybe change the polarity of both CI´s as this would be easier.
> There are no vents on the CI so there is no way to block them.


The dip disappearing was strange...I was thinking phase as well. Before I chase my tail some more I think your idea of examining my test rig is a good one. I'm using a umik-1 mic with the corresponding calibration file loaded into REW. My coupler is 15MM long. I test by wrapping the tubes in bluetack and making sure the opening has no holes.  I have taken screenshots of my settings...you may see something amiss. One thing i have noticed is my scale....I need to condense it to the applicable ranges. Currently 1/6 smoothing, no phase, and 200 to 20K HZ. I have no idea what degrees are supposed to be set to.  Thoughts?


----------



## Farquarl

musmecca said:


> The dip disappearing was strange...I was thinking phase as well. Before I chase my tail some more I think your idea of examining my test rig is a good one. I'm using a umik-1 mic with the corresponding calibration file loaded into REW. My coupler is 15MM long. I test by wrapping the tubes in bluetack and making sure the opening has no holes.  I have taken screenshots of my settings...you may see something amiss. One thing i have noticed is my scale....I need to condense it to the applicable ranges. Currently 1/6 smoothing, no phase, and 200 to 20K HZ. I have no idea what degrees are supposed to be set to.  Thoughts?


Are you sure the tube is attached airtight against you microphone? It kind of looks like it could be not. Otherwise no complaints.
On the software side you don't have to worrie about degrees since you are not measuring phase. I would recommended that you expand the lower limit from 200hz to 10Hz. 
Please measure the twfk alone.


----------



## cyph3r

tirrorex said:


> The design will not be made by me. The guy who will scan the earmolds will also do the 3d file for the printer.
> Hum, will try to find some local suppliers but i don't think i will be very lucky on this one


If you can communicate with the service supplier, ask them to adhere to the proper post printing procedures (washing and UV curing). If not done correctly this can lead to discoloration, brittleness of the material. Also any unpolymerized resin (the goo that is poured in the printing vat) contains a number of components of which are many mildly to moderately toxic and or sensitizing (most notably the photosensizers compounds that catch the laser light quanta and start local polymerization) that can cause allergies. You don't want any of those residues in your ears or skin. Inspect the print after reception for any residues (likely clear highly viscous liquids, particularly as drawn by capillary forces into narrow openings, ducts etc); wash the printed parts with in water with mild detergent, postflush with water. Dont use isopropanol or other alcohols to clean the parts. That should do it; as additional you may want to coat any parts in skin contact with skin-compatible lacquer.


----------



## musmecca

Farquarl said:


> Are you sure the tube is attached airtight against you microphone? It kind of looks like it could be not. Otherwise no complaints.
> On the software side you don't have to worrie about degrees since you are not measuring phase. I would recommended that you expand the lower limit from 200hz to 10Hz.
> Please measure the twfk alone.


You were right abouth the seal on the umik mic. I had used an industrial zip tie that was allowing a little air out just under the knot. I rolled the end with some pipe thread tape and used two zips....works great!

 I did solve another problem fairly creatively that may be of use to others....the two ci's together apparently had the slightest of gaps between the two bodies and the tube that I never saw, and I had re-glued them numerous times.  I was baffled I couldn't get the bass response of Piotrus-g's design, so after many failed screenshots I tried this....I got a long section of tubing, put one end into a foam earpiece and sealed with supertack and put it in my ear.  I then simply ran music into the un mounted rig, passing the open end of my long tube over all junctions like a stethescope! As soon as I passed the open end over trouble spot, I could plainly hear the music and sound was indeed leaking there. I'd hit that spot with the bondic and problem solved. (BTW great suggestion on doing the tubes individually...it's what led me this way). With all my testing now lining up, I wanted to get these buttoned up. They were a BEAR to fit in the shells and I learned a lot about breaking wires and using strain relief in the future!....I quickly tested and sealed before something else decided to come loose. I need to do another touch up and smoothing coat as I was in a hurry so it isn't cosmetically perfect, but thanks Piotrus-G..it sounds AWESOME and I am thrilled. I apparently like bass...wondering what can top these!


----------



## Farquarl

cyph3r said:


> If you can communicate with the service supplier, ask them to adhere to the proper post printing procedures (washing and UV curing). If not done correctly this can lead to discoloration, brittleness of the material. Also any unpolymerized resin (the goo that is poured in the printing vat) contains a number of components of which are many mildly to moderately toxic and or sensitizing (most notably the photosensizers compounds that catch the laser light quanta and start local polymerization) that can cause allergies. You don't want any of those residues in your ears or skin. Inspect the print after reception for any residues (likely clear highly viscous liquids, particularly as drawn by capillary forces into narrow openings, ducts etc); wash the printed parts with in water with mild detergent, postflush with water. Dont use isopropanol or other alcohols to clean the parts. That should do it; as additional you may want to coat any parts in skin contact with skin-compatible lacquer.


Great Job! I'm glad it worked out for you in the end.


----------



## jameswalker

I am designing a coupler to sit between an IEM and a calibrated mic (Dayton UMM-6). Why do the commercial ones use 2cc volumes with a diameter of 1 inch?

My mic has an 8mm outer diameter, surely it would be better and more accurate to use a more similar diameter and volume to my ear canal?


----------



## musmecca

Finished scarys...very pleased with the finish and sound....in retrospect, different color faceplates would have given more pop, but live and learn.  Laquer dipped, no buffing. Picture of MMCX connectiors is self explanatory. I had some of the 4 post and I thought it would be handy to have 4 available connections to ground...I could cut off what i didn't need right?: wrong!  They push in even when glued tightly but more important the center positive pin will ROTATE or PUSH IN when you insert your cable sometimes causing no connection and other times rotation into a ground-out position.  The flat oval ones on the left have the cut out that makes them secure and I never have had a center pin rotate or move.  Don't know if some of you have come to the same conclusions, but just my experience.


----------



## piotrus-g

musmecca said:


> First let me say I'm honored you responded. You have contributed a ton on this site and it is much appreciated given you have a business to run. So I have attached 4 graphs:  The first green is the left as wired...slight dip. The second red line is with the TWFK unhooked completely....you may be on to something as it looks flat.  I thought this design would have a large bass boost....hmm. ( Are the vents for these ci's  on the top and could I have gotten glue in them? Also...how much bass do you pick up when sealing the IEM?)  Third graph in orange is the TWFK leads reversed. As you noted, it may not be as simple as swapping the leads. The last green is the right ear for reference.  I'd appreciate your feedback...do you think the tantalum caps are to blame? Happy to draw out my schematic....If the pics don't load, the link is here:
> 
> https://imgur.com/gallery/iIxjpoh
> 
> ...





musmecca said:


> You were right abouth the seal on the umik mic. I had used an industrial zip tie that was allowing a little air out just under the knot. I rolled the end with some pipe thread tape and used two zips....works great!
> 
> I did solve another problem fairly creatively that may be of use to others....the two ci's together apparently had the slightest of gaps between the two bodies and the tube that I never saw, and I had re-glued them numerous times.  I was baffled I couldn't get the bass response of Piotrus-g's design, so after many failed screenshots I tried this....I got a long section of tubing, put one end into a foam earpiece and sealed with supertack and put it in my ear.  I then simply ran music into the un mounted rig, passing the open end of my long tube over all junctions like a stethescope! As soon as I passed the open end over trouble spot, I could plainly hear the music and sound was indeed leaking there. I'd hit that spot with the bondic and problem solved. (BTW great suggestion on doing the tubes individually...it's what led me this way). With all my testing now lining up, I wanted to get these buttoned up. They were a BEAR to fit in the shells and I learned a lot about breaking wires and using strain relief in the future!....I quickly tested and sealed before something else decided to come loose. I need to do another touch up and smoothing coat as I was in a hurry so it isn't cosmetically perfect, but thanks Piotrus-G..it sounds AWESOME and I am thrilled. I apparently like bass...wondering what can top these!


Hey man!

Thanks for your acknowledgement. I'm not here all the time but I check from time to time what you guys are doing. Seeing that you are trying my build I figured I might as well help 

Anyways I'm really glad you managed to solve it and that you like the sound. I might suggest a thinner shell walls if you have a problem with fitting, although it's fair to say that two CIs are not easy fit even with bigger than average ears. Happy Listening.


----------



## jameswalker

@musmecca Do you have a picture of your calibration setup for reference? Have you heard an IEM with the Sonion  38d1x to compare with for bass?


----------



## musmecca

jameswalker said:


> @musmecca Do you have a picture of your calibration setup for reference? Have you heard an IEM with the Sonion  38d1x to compare with for bass?


Sure, here is my rig: Umik-1 microphone fed into my laptop running REW (room EQ Wizard). The mic is capped with approximately 15.5 mm length of open tube. I put my source in the tube and seal it in place with bluetac. I use this system because it is easy..the umik-1 mic comes with a calibration file that you can load into REW. The REW is also easy....it helps you set it up. I think a lot of people work with ARTA...I had it loaded on my PC briefly but just switched to REW. Final note, make sure your tube is completely sealed on both ends for testing, as the slightest opening will influence your result.

Regarding the sonion 38's, I have a pair I have not loaded into anything yet so I can't compare to the CI's. I plan on doing a build in the next two weeks, so if you find a design let me know!


----------



## jameswalker

I am in the process of doing the 38 and the TWFK. I have the same mic and REW (from other speaker projects). I just designed an adapter to go from the mic to the IEM so will post up once I am done! Similar setup to yours. This will be my first CIEM though.


----------



## musmecca

jameswalker said:


> I am in the process of doing the 38 and the TWFK. I have the same mic and REW (from other speaker projects). I just designed an adapter to go from the mic to the IEM so will post up once I am done! Similar setup to yours. This will be my first CIEM though.


Any idea of your build...tube lengths, dampers, etc? I was looking through some old posts and the 3800 is a beast...very high SPL and almost everyone was discussing how to tame it or match with high output tweeters...The TWFK doesn't break 100 db until 3kHZ, so the 3800 may have to be attenuated. I'm looking for builds and will post any suggestions....


----------



## ejacobsen

jameswalker said:


> I am designing a coupler to sit between an IEM and a calibrated mic (Dayton UMM-6). Why do the commercial ones use 2cc volumes with a diameter of 1 inch?
> 
> My mic has an 8mm outer diameter, surely it would be better and more accurate to use a more similar diameter and volume to my ear canal?



Agreed, 1" doesn't seem rational.  And the 2cc may be an average, but perhaps your ear canals and preferred eartip insertion depth results in a different volume, perhaps even different between your right and left ear.  If you want to raise the bar and make an authentically personal coupler, you could make a model of you own ear canals for the coupler and insert however far you would normally.  You could use your ear impressions as mold.  Sure, the measurements wouldn't be comparable to others' but they'd be what you'd need to dial in your own "super" custom IEM.  Pick a canal material and "head" with similar density and mass as your head to get close to real life damping.  

If you don't want to get so fancy, perhaps you can just figure out the volume of your canal from inserted eartip to eardrum and use that volume for your insertion measurements with your coupler.  I wonder if you could do that with water and a syringe.  Fill canal with water, insert to depth (pushing excess water out), remove eartip, suck out remaining water with syringe and measure its volume.  (provided none of the water escapes down your eustachian tubes.  .


----------



## Farquarl

ejacobsen said:


> Agreed, 1" doesn't seem rational.  And the 2cc may be an average, but perhaps your ear canals and preferred eartip insertion depth results in a different volume, perhaps even different between your right and left ear.  If you want to raise the bar and make an authentically personal coupler, you could make a model of you own ear canals for the coupler and insert however far you would normally.  You could use your ear impressions as mold.  Sure, the measurements wouldn't be comparable to others' but they'd be what you'd need to dial in your own "super" custom IEM.  Pick a canal material and "head" with similar density and mass as your head to get close to real life damping.
> 
> If you don't want to get so fancy, perhaps you can just figure out the volume of your canal from inserted eartip to eardrum and use that volume for your insertion measurements with your coupler.  I wonder if you could do that with water and a syringe.  Fill canal with water, insert to depth (pushing excess water out), remove eartip, suck out remaining water with syringe and measure its volume.  (provided none of the water escapes down your eustachian tubes.  .


In my opinion all that matters for IEMs that you build for yourself is consistency. After all it is your ear and your taste no curve can 100% tell you that you´ll like the sound. But if you have a consistent measuring system you can go from there.


----------



## jameswalker

Some good points. The 2cc seems to be so that a universal comparison "test bed" can be established so one can easily compare drivers fort example. 

I am more tempted to model off my own ear, than use the standard, because why not


----------



## jameswalker

musmecca said:


> Any idea of your build...tube lengths, dampers, etc? I was looking through some old posts and the 3800 is a beast...very high SPL and almost everyone was discussing how to tame it or match with high output tweeters...The TWFK doesn't break 100 db until 3kHZ, so the 3800 may have to be attenuated. I'm looking for builds and will post any suggestions....



Earlier in this thread it was suggested to use an L pad on the 3800 with 4r7 and either 4r7 / 5r3 / 5r6. Then crossing the TWFK with 470nF on the WBFK. 

My only concern is that this yields a low DCR.


----------



## jameswalker

I was wondering about BS6Z, comparing to the build I am proposing (38 and TWFK). They aren't too dissimilar. 

The BS 11013 is essentially DTEC, where in its place I will use the 38. Then it has 2 TWFK. I will just use 1. 

Interesting.


----------



## Bassiklee

So it's a much more capable vented LF driver and one legit TWFK vs a sealed lf driver and two TWFK copies. 

Seems legit.  


That said,  in my experience,  the Bellsing 6 is a nice driver set-up.  Too bad we can't get them in the US right now.


----------



## jameswalker

Nor the UK it would appear, either. And the TWFK is out of stock from Soundlink too. Is that common? (I have mine already)


----------



## Bassiklee

They buy what they anticipate selling. I've had them run out a time or two.  I'm sure this C19 situation has supply lines somewhat limited as well.  I try to keep a few drivers in stock so I don't get pinched when supplies are limited.  I've even had to get them from places like mouser and digikey in the past,  but who wants to pay those prices?? 😎😎😎


----------



## Bassiklee

I spoke with my contact there.  They're just out of stock right now. Probably back in a week


----------



## Farquarl

Im working on a low Budget driver combination. Goal is to be under 10 € per pair. 
Im using a cheap 6mm dynamic driver 1€/$ and the RAD. The Plan is that the drivers will be put into a custom housing to combine their sound outlets into a single port.
his is what i have done so far. I dont have measurments yet or can tell you what the sound is like. Maybe some of you have some good ideas to further improve this design.


----------



## Farquarl

I mean it will definitely need some work but for a first try it aint too bad. (No filters no Crossover)


----------



## musmecca

Farquarl said:


> I mean it will definitely need some work but for a first try it aint too bad. (No filters no Crossover)


That looks great! I take it you 3d printed the housing?


----------



## Farquarl

musmecca said:


> That looks great! I take it you 3d printed the housing?


Yes exactly i 3D printed it. The low end is still a bit much for my taste, right now they sound like Beats.


----------



## mattmatt

Farquarl said:


> I mean it will definitely need some work but for a first try it aint too bad. (No filters no Crossover)


This looks great. A bit little on the treble for me tho.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Farquarl said:


> Im working on a low Budget driver combination. Goal is to be under 10 € per pair.
> Im using a cheap 6mm dynamic driver 1€/$ and the RAD. The Plan is that the drivers will be put into a custom housing to combine their sound outlets into a single port.
> his is what i have done so far. I dont have measurments yet or can tell you what the sound is like. Maybe some of you have some good ideas to further improve this design.





Farquarl said:


> I mean it will definitely need some work but for a first try it aint too bad. (No filters no Crossover)


Bro, it already looks better than many chifi

i will recommend you to create a leak point, so that you can linearize the bass response(leak bass)
and grey damper to tame the 8 to 9kHz a bit


----------



## JEHL

Do I wanna attempt a Tribrid? or are DDs and BAs far cheaper than every other type of driver if low budget is important?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

JEHL said:


> Do I wanna attempt a Tribrid? or are DDs and BAs far cheaper than every other type of driver if low budget is important?


and here i am working on Hexa brid lol

bone conduction
DD
planar
BA
EST
peizo


DD and BA are cheapest you can get though


----------



## Farquarl

dhruvmeena96 said:


> and here i am working on Hexa brid lol
> 
> bone conduction
> DD
> ...


What is a peizo?


----------



## eunice

Farquarl said:


> What is a peizo?


Piezo electric


----------



## jameswalker

Its piezo:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudspeaker#Piezoelectric_speakers

More commonly used as sensors typically:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piezoelectric_sensor


----------



## JEHL

Seems like I'd be interested in a 1 DD+1 BA+1 Piezo.

Does that sound like a nightmare to tune?


----------



## jameswalker

I am just sanity checking my calibration rig. Does this seem about right for a single dynamic driver IEM? Sweep at -12db, with no reference level set:


----------



## Farquarl

jameswalker said:


> I am just sanity checking my calibration rig. Does this seem about right for a single dynamic driver IEM? Sweep at -12db, with no reference level set:


There is really no way of telling this with a random dynamic driver without any reference measurment. Do you have a knowles or sonion BA? you could measure it with the tube length and diameter they use and compare it.


----------



## mjoleksy

Omg gents, this is my dream.... I’m looking for a specific cable for my IEMs that no one seems to have. I’d even pay some one to make bespoke ones!


----------



## JEHL

mjoleksy said:


> Omg gents, this is my dream.... I’m looking for a specific cable for my IEMs that no one seems to have. I’d even pay some one to make bespoke ones!


Personally I'd love to make my own cable... If MMCX/2-Pin connectors weren't so disproportionately expensive.


----------



## topito

Hi.
I was wondering if anyone has a fix for this happening to the inside of their shells:



The material is clear fotoplast s/io, first cured, then poured and cured again, then submerged in glycerin and cured once more. Inside is quite smooth except for those little pointy bits/bubbles inside of the shell, really bugs me as I don't want to sand/lacquer the inside as I can't reach everything. Please share any ideas to fix this.


----------



## musmecca

topito said:


> Hi.
> I was wondering if anyone has a fix for this happening to the inside of their shells:
> The material is clear fotoplast s/io, first cured, then poured and cured again, then submerged in glycerin and cured once more. Inside is quite smooth except for those little pointy bits/bubbles inside of the shell, really bugs me as I don't want to sand/lacquer the inside as I can't reach everything. Please share any ideas to fix this.


That is casued by air bubbles in your glycerin. Pour it in slowly and then take your time to let it rest. I fully submerge mine. I then use a pin to pop the bubbles and bring them to the surface. Once these bubbles are cast in the shell, you are kinda stuck...though I have seen the occasional one go away if you lac 3 the interior....but it doesn't always work, so best to not get them in the first place.


----------



## musmecca

Doing a bass heavy build but want to make sure I don't end up with something too muddy. My build as stands:

Sonion 3800 - 4 Ohm resistor/22MFd cap as low pass, into 20 MM X 1MM tube with 3300 ohm damper halfway.
Knowles SR32453- 5 Ohm resistor/10MFd cap as low pass into 18MM X 2tube with no damper currently.
Knowles TWFK- .470 Cap between Positives, 15mm X1.5 Tube, 680 ohm damper halfway

My thought was the sonion would carry the bass, with the sr handling most of the midrange. The twfk would be handling highs/sparkle. Not sure if I should pad the 3800 or remove the twfk dampers altogether...or heck it could sound incredibly good! Any thoughts experts?


----------



## jameswalker

That build seems like far too much bass compared to the mids and highs. That sonion needs some taming! @dhruvmeena96 has previously stated to lpad with 4r7 when combining with the knowles. 

What is the DCR of that configuration above? Do you have all 3 drivers in parallel with each other? Sonion in P or S with itself?


----------



## jameswalker (Aug 27, 2020)

Does anyone know the exact part numbers of the 2 BA within TWFK?

The WBFK is likely WBFK-30095
Edit: The WBFK 30019 looks the same as the 30095? What am I missing?

The FK, I can't seem to find an FK with 25r to correlate a part number with.


----------



## Farquarl

So i have redone my budget 2 driver hybrid module. Tube length is now shorter, a 1000Ohm filter is installed near to the drivers and the polarity of the RAD driver is switched.
Also the 3D printed housing is adjusted for phase aligment (had some issues). The module now has less bass and lost its 9k peak.
Tbh im impressed what a sub 10€ hybrid can sound like. I guess with more understanding of resonances and volumes you could even improve the sound. Sadly i don´t really know much abou it  and i don´t know of a software with which to simulate.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Farquarl said:


> So i have redone my budget 2 driver hybrid module. Tube length is now shorter, a 1000Ohm filter is installed near to the drivers and the polarity of the RAD driver is switched.
> Also the 3D printed housing is adjusted for phase aligment (had some issues). The module now has less bass and lost its 9k peak.
> Tbh im impressed what a sub 10€ hybrid can sound like. I guess with more understanding of resonances and volumes you could even improve the sound. Sadly i don´t really know much abou it  and i don´t know of a software with which to simulate.


Green is 1500ohms

i tried something like that

but i used RAF

and had a bass leaking point


still, nice build
must say

and adaptor looks nice


----------



## Farquarl

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Green is 1500ohms
> 
> i tried something like that
> 
> ...


Thanks a lot 
When i took the images i had a green one installed but finaly chose a 1000ohm one.
I don´t know how you would make an opening for leaking some low end precise enough. Can you share how you have done it?


----------



## Farquarl

Anyway i decided since these drivers are so cheap that i put them in my universal shell.


----------



## musmecca

jameswalker said:


> That build seems like far too much bass compared to the mids and highs. That sonion needs some taming! @dhruvmeena96 has previously stated to lpad with 4r7 when combining with the knowles.
> 
> What is the DCR of that configuration above? Do you have all 3 drivers in parallel with each



So, here is what I did and why it took so long. 1st, I made a mistake in the room I had in the canal. I could easily fit the three tubes, but when the dampers were added, they unfortunately collided in the canal and I was forced to redo...which was a blessing. I moved the twfk damper next to the port, which game me more volume to compensate for the sonion 3800. I also moved the sr to a 1mm tube and shortened it to 16mm..no damper, as I nailed the low pass.  The sonion is wired in parallel, as are all the others...all parallel. I kept the low pass filter values the same as before and DID NOT pad the sonion. The reason I didn't pad it is because my last 3 builds looked beautifully flat...and I subsequently found I wanted more bass! Yes, it shows more bass when a sine is passed on my test rig, but once in my ear it is playing kick drum, bass guitar etc and those are more transient, so a bass heavy sine doesn't necessarily mean it's going to constantly sound boomy. Of course a very bright IEM would get on your nerves right?  Opposite possibly doesn't apply.  I played Rush "Tom Sawyer" and a few Godsmake/Volbeat tunes and it was perfectly tuned..bass and kick drum were fast and heavy hitting while mids and treble were perfect..almost compressed...truly beautiful.  It was never harsh and was easy to wear. 







One criticism is a little more shimmer would make it perfect, but it's 98% there. The resistance measured to 7.7 Ohms each.  Here is the final graph and some pics of the finished shells...I went with clear and an exotic wood verneer. Cheers!


----------



## dhruvmeena96

musmecca said:


> So, here is what I did and why it took so long. 1st, I made a mistake in the room I had in the canal. I could easily fit the three tubes, but when the dampers were added, they unfortunately collided in the canal and I was forced to redo...which was a blessing. I moved the twfk damper next to the port, which game me more volume to compensate for the sonion 3800. I also moved the sr to a 1mm tube and shortened it to 16mm..no damper, as I nailed the low pass.  The sonion is wired in parallel, as are all the others...all parallel. I kept the low pass filter values the same as before and DID NOT pad the sonion. The reason I didn't pad it is because my last 3 builds looked beautifully flat...and I subsequently found I wanted more bass! Yes, it shows more bass when a sine is passed on my test rig, but once in my ear it is playing kick drum, bass guitar etc and those are more transient, so a bass heavy sine doesn't necessarily mean it's going to constantly sound boomy. Of course a very bright IEM would get on your nerves right?  Opposite possibly doesn't apply.  I played Rush "Tom Sawyer" and a few Godsmake/Volbeat tunes and it was perfectly tuned..bass and kick drum were fast and heavy hitting while mids and treble were perfect..almost compressed...truly beautiful.  It was never harsh and was easy to wear. One criticism is a little more shimmer would make it perfect, but it's 98% there. The resistance measured to 7.7 Ohms each.  Here is the final graph and some pics of the finished shells...I went with clear and an exotic wood verneer. Cheers!



Nice build


Try to get iec711 and try to measure where the pinna gain is

Because other rig is hard to understand

There are many factor in designing iem and I agree... But with that graph, in 711 imagination would be super bass heavy with no shimmer.

So I think its a different coupler



Second, L-pad a series 38D1XJ technically makes that driver lowpass and makes its distortion in control more than RC lowpass.

The driver doesnt sound forced due to a linear loss a sensitivity in L-pad.

And also makes the whole design easier to incorporate if your frequency target Is Harman target


----------



## jameswalker

That looks absolutely great!! Though, from that curve it looks like you have dropped almost 50db at 6k? Surely that can't be true?


----------



## musmecca

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Nice build
> 
> 
> Try to get iec711 and try to measure where the pinna gain is
> ...


Thanks for the feedback...your insight is invaluable. On the sonion, I used a 4 ohm resistor with a 22UF to get my cutoff (roughly 1800 if my math is right). Could you please explain how to calculate the L-Pad and how it makes it lowpass with less effort? I looked at the online resources and they really only addressed dropping the DB....I'd like to learn. Would you keep the filter or simply L-pad alone? In case you dind't see my other posts, I cut the sonion at 1800HZ and the sr at 3183hz which was the1st peak....I was looking for the 3800 to pick up the bass, the sr to cover mids, and twfk to cover highs.....criticism welcome!

Regarding the coupler, I think I may have to do something different, as my readings are directional right now. They are helpful, but apparently something is still off. During the build, I recalled one of your explanations about why MASM was soo good...especially for old people.  It had to do with a bad sensitivity to HF/Mids in older people...I am still rocking, but I am a 57 year old Medical professional and when I saw the decreased highs/increased lows I though of you and was less worried! Happy to make changes to the build as I am going to have to open one anyway for a problematic connector.

Last question teacher, are you calculating pinna gain to be in the 4-5KHZ range? How do you take this into consideration in a build? If I read the articles on Pinna gain correctly,  those freq will be naturally bumped up by your ear?


----------



## musmecca

jameswalker said:


> That looks absolutely great!! Though, from that curve it looks like you have dropped almost 50db at 6k? Surely that can't be true?


Unfortunately it may be true! Dhruv made some comments about pinna gain as well as some previous commentary on old peoples negative sensitivity to higher frequesncy..I am 57 years old and when I put them in my ear, they sound great...his understanding may hold the key as to why.  (and yes, that 2% shimmer is now bothering me!). I believe you have the same mic (umik1) and REW setup as me...have you finished your coupler as I'd like to see how your rig compares. 

Last, he commented on the Lpad for the sonion, but really for its LP abilities. I'm sure you would lke to see that explanation as I thought it was only to tame the DB...


----------



## jameswalker

I have only so far done a sweep on my existing IEMs, nothing custom yet. But this is the CAD model:






And as per an earlier post here is the sweep I took:




I will take a picture of the setup when I do it properly with my CIEMs.


----------



## JEHL

Farquarl said:


> Anyway i decided since these drivers are so cheap that i put them in my universal shell.


Any advantages of a large housing relative to the drivers?


----------



## Farquarl

JEHL said:


> Any advantages of a large housing relative to the drivers?


Not really but i modelled this shell for general purposes. Thats why its a bit too large for its job


----------



## mattmatt

Farquarl said:


> Not really but i modelled this shell for general purposes. Thats why its a bit too large for its job


Ease of installation of components is one advantage!


----------



## johnchpark

Hi, just a quick question. 
For IEM's, about how much should the voltage be for the capacitors?
And for ceramic capacitors, are capacitance loss not an issue for IEM's?
Thanks!


----------



## Farquarl

johnchpark said:


> Hi, just a quick question.
> For IEM's, about how much should the voltage be for the capacitors?
> And for ceramic capacitors, are capacitance loss not an issue for IEM's?
> Thanks!


Don't worroy about the voltage the limits of normal smd caps are good enough. On the account of internal losses in capacitors I never really thought about it. But my guess is that the effect is negligible. Maybe someone else who knows more can contribute some insights.


----------



## jameswalker

I just heard from soundlink that they will no longer sell bellsing. Where else could we get the 10013? Or is it time for an improved bs6z alternative?


----------



## musmecca

jameswalker said:


> I just heard from soundlink that they will no longer sell bellsing. Where else could we get the 10013? Or is it time for an improved bs6z alternative?


It was on my list to build as well....interested to see what equivalents the community comes up with...


----------



## jameswalker

Well I still maintain the similarities the Sonion 38 and TWFK have, with the BS6. In theory.


----------



## Bassiklee

jameswalker said:


> Well I still maintain the similarities the Sonion 38 and TWFK have, with the BS6. In theory.




Yes and no.  The B6 it more of a DTEC and two TWFK. The Sonion 38 series are BEASTS.


----------



## jameswalker

Bassiklee said:


> Yes and no.  The B6 it more of a DTEC and two TWFK. The Sonion 38 series are BEASTS.


Yes, a beast, plus a TWFK. Tame the beast slightly, get enhanced bass over a BS6 (which is what I am after) and then hit jackpot?!

I will be doing the build sooner or later. I am still trying to run simulations / ideas before I do.


----------



## johnchpark

I'm starting out and trying to get a set of capacitors & resistors of wide values.
I found these two on Alieexpress, but I was wondering if anyone had better suggestions/sources.
I'm a little concerned with the tantalum capacitor Im linking below, because I know they have +/- polarity, so not sure how I need to wire them.
Do I just put the positive lead of the 2-pin jack to the + end of the tantalum capacitor, and take the - end of the capacitor to the + end of the driver?

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/2025736704.html?spm=a2g0o.detail.1000023.15.495279d0qnxw14

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32368758351.html?spm=a2g0o.detail.1000023.7.495279d0qnxw14


Thanks so much!


----------



## Farquarl

Any reason why you want to use such big SMD resistors? Go for 1206 or smaller!
Also ceramic resistors are better and do not have polarity use them.


----------



## johnchpark (Sep 4, 2020)

Farquarl said:


> Any reason why you want to use such big SMD resistors? Go for 1206 or smaller!
> Also ceramic resistors are better and do not have polarity use them.



Ah didn't realize they came in different sizes.
Would the links below suffice? Thinking of getting a bunch of different values individually; although 100pcs/value is a little excessive...but prices per lot seem super cheap so I guess not a big problem.

Or do you guys have any vendors where you guys usually buy from?

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/328...earchweb0_0,searchweb201602_,searchweb201603_

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/329...earchweb0_0,searchweb201602_,searchweb201603_

thanks!


UPDATE;

Seems like capacitor quality matters, so I think I'll be going with some 6.3~16V 1206 ceramic SMD Kemet/Murata/TDK from Mouser (although they're a lot more pricey than the Alieexpress ones).

Also, I saw that people recommend wire-wound resistors, but looking through Mouser, the smallest size wire wound seem to be ~11mm in length. Wouldn't it be harder to fit into an IEM shell?


----------



## DR650SE (Sep 6, 2020)

Hey guys, hoping I can get some help with an issue. I have Westone W40 IEMs, and my left IEM cracked open and when it did, one of the wires broke from the solder joint. So now I've replaced the wires with 30AWG enameled copper wire. However, in testing it sounds different then the right side. It almost sounds like I'm not getting sound from the high end balanced armatures. I've attached a pic of how it's soldered up right now, and hoping someone can spot an obvious flaw in my repair. Any guidance would be great. These are 5+ years old, and I'd perfer not to pay for a new set.  The only wires I've messed with are the enameled copper wires. I haven't touched (at least intentionally) any other solder joints.  Both IEMs are measuring 15Ω so I'm stumped as I don't have much knowledge in this arena.


----------



## Bassiklee

Did you somehow manage to create a solder bridge across the input to that first cap?  Looks like maybe that solder is touching the case,  which your other wire appears to be touching on the LF driver.  That looks like a variant of the GV,  essentially a dual vented LF,  like a HODVTEC coupled with a TWFK, except with their own caps,  rather than the super tiny ones incorporated into the GV


----------



## DR650SE

Bassiklee said:


> Did you somehow manage to create a solder bridge across the input to that first cap?  Looks like maybe that solder is touching the case,  which your other wire appears to be touching on the LF driver.  That looks like a variant of the GV,  essentially a dual vented LF,  like a HODVTEC coupled with a TWFK, except with their own caps,  rather than the super tiny ones incorporated into the GV



Hmmm, I'll need to take a second look. I didn't touch (I think) any of the caps. I only touched the joints where the MMCX connector wires touch the BAs.  I'll maybe try and clean the solder off with some wick and try again.  Are they ll wired together? It look like that to me. I wanna make sure I know how the signal goes before I mess it up.


----------



## Bassiklee

It's unclear what exactly you replaced.  If you only replaced the wires going from the MMCX to the LF driver,  then ignore my comment.  Since all four wires appear to be the same,  I thought you replaced them all.  Is that LF driver sealed like a DTEC/HODTEC, or vented like a HODVTEC?  The smaller driver is clearky a TWFK variant


----------



## Bassiklee

*clearly. 😎


----------



## Farquarl

Bassiklee said:


> *clearly. 😎


Clearky does have a nice ring to it tho


----------



## Bassiklee

I'm saving that one for the marketing blurb on my color free shells.  "light passes clearky thru them"…


----------



## jameswalker

Just something interesting here. Comparing 2 PCs side by side using the same measurement setup, same IEM, etc:


----------



## LeaveMasonAlone

jameswalker said:


> Just something interesting here. Comparing 2 PCs side by side using the same measurement setup, same IEM, etc:



Did you calibrate REW for each sound card?


----------



## jameswalker

I sure did. Both plots are without smoothing, too. 

To be honest, the soundcard calibration in my 2 cases is largely irrelevant. Talking 0.2db at the very most out.


----------



## HenacanPodwell

Hello everyone! After digging somemore info deep into the threads, I have a few things that I am still confused and would be really happy if anyone can teach me.

How does one calculate and create a resonator? It is by trials and errors? The resonator on RAB P looks fantastic! Also does resonator changes the frequency responses that iec 711 can measures?

What does the center tap do on ba drivers?

What would happen if you swap the polarity of the driver? Is it a good practise and how does it changes the sound?

What can I do to improve soundstage? Some multi ba iem sounded huge to me.

Thank you very much!


----------



## musmecca

HenacanPodwell said:


> Hello everyone! After digging somemore info deep into the threads, I have a few things that I am still confused and would be really happy if anyone can teach me.
> 
> How does one calculate and create a resonator? It is by trials and errors? The resonator on RAB P looks fantastic! Also does resonator changes the frequency responses that iec 711 can measures?
> 
> ...


Most of what you seek is in here....it is a synopsis of the first years of this thread and covers all the topics you asked above with the exception of resonators: dhruv is the genius on resonators, so I'd check with him.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/...Jh_bh3fuUBNe2HrQg/edit#heading=h.t2frpipmdu4k


----------



## jameswalker

Why has the Harman target curve changed year to year? Which curve are people using to strive toward with crossover design simulations?


----------



## Bassiklee

So,  game changer new TWFK seems to be out.  Prewired,  with cap,  and a much better response than the 30017. No affiliation.  I do have some coming in for evaluation.


----------



## musmecca

Bassiklee said:


> So,  game changer new TWFK seems to be out.  Prewired,  with cap,  and a much better response than the 30017. No affiliation.  I do have some coming in for evaluation.


Really curious as to what cap value they selected.....


----------



## jameswalker

Is it the 30017 just with a cap? I have the FK and WBFK open in sim, I could play about.


----------



## Farquarl

Its just a TWFK 30017 with a cap and litz wire attached. Looks like a good driver for an diffused field built.


----------



## jameswalker

I think there might be more differences than just a cap. Modelling the FK and WBFK together to get the 30017 looks like this (for me based on datasheet info only). The dark blue line is the TWFK, the red line is the FK and the yellow line is the WBFK. 

No cap choice even comes close to getting that linear response of the new TWFK from 800hz to 2.5k.


----------



## Bassiklee

Yeah,  I don't know if it's just a 30017 with an added cap,  or if they just used one in the pic. If I were an exec at a BA company,  I wouldn't call a 30017 prewired by an entirely different model number.  Then again,  I wouldn't have a pic of a 30017 in the info sheets for a different model either.  I have some coming,  but I have no desire to desolder that cap and measure it.


----------



## jameswalker

If you have a capacitance meter you wont need to desolder it to measure it. Do you have the ability to take an independant frequency response of it? And even a standard TWFK to compare with?


----------



## HenacanPodwell

musmecca said:


> Most of what you seek is in here....it is a synopsis of the first years of this thread and covers all the topics you asked above with the exception of resonators: dhruv is the genius on resonators, so I'd check with him.
> 
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/...Jh_bh3fuUBNe2HrQg/edit#heading=h.t2frpipmdu4k


Thank you very much! I will look into it.


----------



## Bassiklee

My meter requires that they are desoldered to read accurately.  The one on a GK read vastly different attached and not.


----------



## johnchpark

Will there be any issues of using a lower voltage capacitor (6-10V) in an IEM if the source output is higher (up to 12Vrms)?


----------



## Farquarl

jameswalker said:


> I think there might be more differences than just a cap. Modelling the FK and WBFK together to get the 30017 looks like this (for me based on datasheet info only). The dark blue line is the TWFK, the red line is the FK and the yellow line is the WBFK.
> 
> No cap choice even comes close to getting that linear response of the new TWFK from 800hz to 2.5k.


It literally says 30017 on the side of the driver. Tbh i don´t see that much of a difference. Caps alter phaseangle so there could be some interference going on here.


----------



## Bassiklee

It will be interesting to see what it says on the actual drivers. Very well could be just a 30017 with a cap and wires,  but the graph looks markedly better than the one for the 30017, which is wired using a 0.82uF cap for that measurement.


----------



## jameswalker

It does indeed say 30017 on the side, I just can't see how a single capacitor could smooth the peaks as much as it has, without hitting the troughs too.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

musmecca said:


> Really curious as to what cap value they selected.....


1uF


----------



## Bassiklee

So,  I ordered ten. I might be convinced to desolder a cap and measure it.  That's IF these have 30017 on the side.


----------



## jameswalker

To be honest, a frequency response graph would suffice.


----------



## jameswalker

Here is my latest conventional 3D printed prototype, for test fitment. Scanned kindly by Farquarl:


----------



## Bassiklee

Cool.  Mars Pro here


----------



## mattmatt

Bassiklee said:


> Cool.  Mars Pro here


Oooh! Looking great! What resin are you using for the Mars?


----------



## Bassiklee

While we work on print details,  post processing,  etc,  just the anycubic clear.  Once it seems we're close to being able to switch over, I have my eye on a few. Pro3dure GR-1, Surehold has one that isn't too expensive.  Some of these are actually cheaper than their pouring resin counterparts.


----------



## mattmatt (Sep 9, 2020)

Edit: double posted a reply. 

Surehold seems to be really really cheap. Was actually looking at them, even their lacquer seems really good.


----------



## musmecca

dhruvmeena96 said:


> 1uF


A man with inside information! I was going to guess .47. 

Getting ready to build your Finale 3 tomorrow. Two questions: First, I have the ED29689 instead of the ED 30761....some data sheets show them as identical. Will this present me with a problem? Second, you had mentioned in an earlier post going with 2 yellow dampers on the CI vs the 3. I am a basshead apparently...thoughts on the difference?


----------



## Farquarl

Bassiklee said:


> So,  I ordered ten. I might be convinced to desolder a cap and measure it.  That's IF these have 30017 on the side.


xD 


jameswalker said:


> Here is my latest conventional 3D printed prototype, for test fitment. Scanned kindly by Farquarl:



Awesome, you could try and acetone smooth it make it comfortable to insert. I did that a couple of years ago and the damn things even worked


----------



## Farquarl

mattmatt said:


> Edit: double posted a reply.
> 
> Surehold seems to be really really cheap. Was actually looking at them, even their lacquer seems really good.


Can you post a link to this shop?


----------



## Farquarl

Bassiklee said:


> While we work on print details,  post processing,  etc,  just the anycubic clear.  Once it seems we're close to being able to switch over, I have my eye on a few. Pro3dure GR-1, Surehold has one that isn't too expensive.  Some of these are actually cheaper than their pouring resin counterparts.


I have Pro3dure Gr 1 Black. Its a good Resin. Prints better than Detax Freeprint Mould Clear but its a pigmented resin so thats to be expected. Im really interested how pro3dure clear print. Please keep us posted.


----------



## jameswalker

And now for 0.05mm layer height, looking good!


----------



## Bassiklee

Surehold is at warner. I have not seen it anywhere else. 

https://www.warnertechcare.com/surehold-s1-cl-clear-resin-1-kg-bottle


----------



## Bassiklee

Farquarl said:


> I have Pro3dure Gr 1 Black. Its a good Resin. Prints better than Detax Freeprint Mould Clear but its a pigmented resin so thats to be expected. Im really interested how pro3dure clear print. Please keep us posted.




What machine are you printing on?


----------



## Farquarl

Bassiklee said:


> What machine are you printing on?


Im using a flashforge hunter.


Bassiklee said:


> Surehold is at warner. I have not seen it anywhere else.
> 
> https://www.warnertechcare.com/surehold-s1-cl-clear-resin-1-kg-bottle



Thank you! Can you order around the world from Warner? Do you need to have a business?


----------



## Bassiklee

I don't know if they ship worldwide.  I have a commercial account with them.


----------



## Bassiklee

So,  with a few of us getting into 3D printing,  how long before one of us bites the bullet and gets a 5 axis CNC so we can carve shells from other stuff,  like Jerry Harvey??


----------



## jameswalker

Bassiklee said:


> So,  with a few of us getting into 3D printing,  how long before one of us bites the bullet and gets a 5 axis CNC so we can carve shells from other stuff,  like Jerry Harvey??


I will be first in line to pay for the services of a pocketNC


----------



## dhruvmeena96

musmecca said:


> A man with inside information! I was going to guess .47.
> 
> Getting ready to build your Finale 3 tomorrow. Two questions: First, I have the ED29689 instead of the ED 30761....some data sheets show them as identical. Will this present me with a problem? Second, you had mentioned in an earlier post going with 2 yellow dampers on the CI vs the 3. I am a basshead apparently...thoughts on the difference?


ED30761 is a woofer
ED29689 is a er4 driver which excel being a neutral driver
They are completely different drivers

And three dampers is not for having more or less bass but for having a control otherwise you will have bad bleed


----------



## Farquarl

jameswalker said:


> I will be first in line to pay for the services of a pocketNC


This! I am looking at these chinese 6040 5 axis cnc... 3k€/$ tho


----------



## jameswalker

Farquarl said:


> This! I am looking at these chinese 6040 5 axis cnc... 3k€/$ tho


Well when you get one, I will have you do me some as well as the resin ones!


----------



## wardy

Whilst we are talking about 3d printing shells, currently getting into the SLA game, non yellowing clear seems to be a huge issue, has anyone had any luck with printing crystal clear shells and can recommend some stuff? 

Currently considering some of the GR Pro3dure stuff.


----------



## Bassiklee

Yes!!  As Wardy alerted me in a pm,  Pro3dure's GR-1 is for printers in the 385nm wavelength,  but they also have GR-10, which is designed for 405nm.  I guess they figured out that if they could offer a biocompatible resin that those of us with budget machines could use, they'd clean up.  I'll be ordering some soon.


----------



## selenarichard

That's interesting to see the upgraded IEM


----------



## Bassiklee

Firstly,  I like the packaging.  

Second,  without magnification beyond just blowing up my cell phone pics,  these do appear to say 30017 on them.  

Third,  I'm not desoldering that cap.  Not on this round.  Maybe at some point.


----------



## mattmatt

Bassiklee said:


> Firstly,  I like the packaging.
> 
> Second,  without magnification beyond just blowing up my cell phone pics,  these do appear to say 30017 on them.
> 
> Third,  I'm not desoldering that cap.  Not on this round.  Maybe at some point.


Thanks for taking one for the team! Do you think you can measure and compare it to 30017? Probably that 0.68 or 1uf


----------



## Bassiklee

Can't measure the cap without removing it.  Not going to risk destroying a perfectly good driver.


----------



## mattmatt

Bassiklee said:


> Can't measure the cap without removing it.  Not going to risk destroying a perfectly good driver.


I mean the FR.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Bassiklee said:


> Can't measure the cap without removing it.  Not going to risk destroying a perfectly good driver.


Imma telling you its 1uF
You can try measuring it on IEC711 
Twfk with 1uF
And this custom twfk

Hahahahha


----------



## Bassiklee

Yes, you've said that before.  Have you had one, removed the cap,  and measured it?  If not,  then your opinion is just that.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Sep 13, 2020)

Bassiklee said:


> Yes, you've said that before.  Have you had one, removed the cap,  and measured it?  If not,  then your opinion is just that.


You can mail knowles yourself
They will reply you

I have worked with it and asked knowles for conformation


----------



## mattmatt

Not sure if I posted this. Just saw this in my gallery while browsing.  a reshell of UE SF5 Pro. Wanted to try out Apex and Adel for my self.


----------



## Farquarl

mattmatt said:


> Not sure if I posted this. Just saw this in my gallery while browsing.  a reshell of UE SF5 Pro. Wanted to try out Apex and Adel for my self.


Gorgeous build!


----------



## musmecca (Sep 13, 2020)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> ED30761 is a woofer
> ED29689 is a er4 driver which excel being a neutral driver
> They are completely different drivers
> 
> And three dampers is not for having more or less bass but for having a control otherwise you will have bad bleed


Got it! Replacement parts came in today so doing the build this afternoon. So, possibly playing with the red and orange dampers/position or possibly the diameter (going to a 1m tube) can add more bass from the 30761 if needed?  BTW, I searched and never found a FR graph of this build....did you have one for reference?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

musmecca said:


> Got it! Replacement parts came in today so doing the build this afternoon. So, possibly playing with the red and orange dampers/position or possibly the diameter (going to a 1m tube) can add more bass from the 30761 if needed?  BTW, I searched and never found a FR graph of this build....did you have one for reference?


it was technically a noble savant refresh  
ED30761 and ED29689  
in final 2 
using FED30048 makes us avoid green damper and let the whole sound come out unfiltered letting us(whoever made this, are in my team) have smooth peakless extension while also the uppermid pinna being damped 

adding a dual damped CI just adds to subbass 

making it basshead iem made by BA 

dont have the FR nor the drivers now..... so you have to wait  till i get a coupler(711) or somebody measures it to you 

the design is based on Wizard Orignal savant so its kinda fool proof


----------



## shdh

Isn't the Bellsing 6 (10013) just a DTEC with two TWFK clones?


----------



## Bassiklee

Essentially,  yes


----------



## Bassiklee

Here. Hope this helps


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## shdh (Sep 17, 2020)

Thanks @Bassiklee
I suppose what I'm curious about is what makes the Bellsing 6 so special? Could I just source any DTEC and 2 TWFK's and tune them together to accomplish the same result?



dhruvmeena96 said:


> so you have to wait  till i get a coupler(711)


If you don't have a coupler, how have you been measuring your builds to this point?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

shdh said:


> Thanks @Bassiklee
> I suppose what I'm curious about is what makes the Bellsing 6 so special? Could I just any DTEC and 2 TWFK's and tune them together to accomplish the same result?
> 
> 
> If you don't have a coupler, how have you been measuring your builds to this point?


I had a coupler
Had to sell out due to some circumstances

That was 2018
I am going to buy a cheap taobao one this time


----------



## Bassiklee

shdh said:


> Thanks @Bassiklee
> I suppose what I'm curious about is what makes the Bellsing 6 so special? Could I just any DTEC and 2 TWFK's and tune them together to accomplish the same result?
> 
> 
> I suppose one thing that made it "so special"(your words,  not mine) is that it's pre-configured as a 6 driver package,  with the crossover figured out. Do keep in mind that without the zobel,  it has some issues. As far as any DTEC and two TWFK,  yes.  In theory,  that could be accomplished.  Do you have the chops to do it?  I can't answer that question.


----------



## shdh

Bassiklee said:


> I suppose one thing that made it "so special"(your words, not mine) is that it's pre-configured as a 6 driver package, with the crossover figured out. Do keep in mind that without the zobel, it has some issues. As far as any DTEC and two TWFK, yes. In theory, that could be accomplished. Do you have the chops to do it? I can't answer that question.


Based on the posts I read, some people refer to certain builds with BS6 as close to "endgame" - guess I'll have to try to figure that out for myself.



dhruvmeena96 said:


> I had a coupler


Yeah that is tough, attempting to engineer designs without being able to accurately measure them.



dhruvmeena96 said:


> I am going to buy a cheap taobao one this time


Could you link to ones you think are adequate from Taobao?


----------



## musmecca

Bassiklee said:


> Here. Hope this helps


Very useful....thanks! Did anyone ever figure out the cap/resistor values in the crossover network?


----------



## Bassiklee

Unless you are using the same TWFK variant that they used two of,  the cap values wouldn't necessarily be the same.  If I were going to design a monitor using two TWFK,  I would look for cap values with the ones I was planning to use, and start there.


----------



## 528068 (Sep 18, 2020)

https://www.alibaba.com/product-det...724857.videoBannerStyleB_top.3.39606c264PMUl1 IEM planar drivers. Would really like to see somebody review them. It'd be even more interesting to see someone compare the IEM drivers against the k99/k100 500ohm drivers from Aliexpress which are also found on Alibaba iirc but also definitely on TaoBao. The planar IEM driver might even be able to fit into a 40mm headphone casing because the driver has a diameter of 40mm.

Specs:


----------



## Farquarl

TheRealestLad said:


> https://www.alibaba.com/product-det...724857.videoBannerStyleB_top.3.39606c264PMUl1 IEM planar drivers. Would really like to see somebody review them. It'd be even more interesting to see someone compare the IEM drivers against the k99/k100 500ohm drivers from Aliexpress which are also found on Alibaba iirc but also definitely on TaoBao. The planar IEM driver might even be able to fit into a 40mm headphone casing because the driver has a diameter of 40mm.
> 
> Specs:


That thing seems totaly useless for IEM use. 40mm? how big should this "In Ear" get? also by the look at the frequency response curve it doesn´t fit the usually prefered curve which accounts for the open ear gain as well. That being said i don´t think planar technology offers any real advantage compared to balanced armature(debatable).


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## Bassiklee

Agreed.  Someone doesn't grasp the concept of IN EAR.


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## stephensynanta16 (Sep 18, 2020)

jameswalker said:


> I just heard from soundlink that they will no longer sell bellsing. Where else could we get the 10013? Or is it time for an improved bs6z alternative?


here's DIY BZ6:
HODVTEC, tape all vent on one side, or get DTEC and use it as is
2x twfk:
both FK wired parallel, hi pass 4.7uF, (edit: my bad, it should be 20uF)
both WBFK wired parallel, hi pass 1uF

sonion 38 is not really recommended, since its too overpowered. even hodvtec is overpowered already, hence why we need to tape half of both vent. On BZ6, mid is done mostly by the DTEC. parallel FK on its own is not really reliable to do mid on BZ6, it will have shouty transition from mid-to-uppermid(more than 10db climb from 800hz to 2k)..


----------



## stephensynanta16

shdh said:


> Thanks @Bassiklee
> I suppose what I'm curious about is what makes the Bellsing 6 so special? Could I just source any DTEC and 2 TWFK's and tune them together to accomplish the same result?
> 
> 
> If you don't have a coupler, how have you been measuring your builds to this point?


What made BZ6 special is: The ease of assembly, also how Bellsing manage to cross those 3 kind of driver at their best frequency.

@dhruvmeena96 doesnt even need coupler, his pen & paper calculation is spot on. If he says a build is gonna be harman, it will measure exactly harman on coupler.


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## Bassiklee

stephensynanta16 said:


> What made BZ6 special is: The ease of assembly, also how Bellsing manage to cross those 3 kind of driver at their best frequency.
> 
> Sort of.  There are filters on the TWFK,  but the DTEC is running full range.  This isn't necessarily a bad thing,  as Knowles does the same thing with the HODVTEC section in their GV.


----------



## shdh

stephensynanta16 said:


> @dhruvmeena96 doesnt even need coupler, his pen & paper calculation is spot on. If he says a build is gonna be harman, it will measure exactly harman on coupler.


I'm not doubting his abilities or knowledge, I've read many of his posts. But I'm sure he agrees, a scientific/engineering approach requires proper measurements. Measurements also help aid in better decision making and documentation of designs. That's just my perspective though.


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## johnchpark (Sep 18, 2020)

Hi, so i tried wiring and testing some of my drivers, and my fullrange drivers (ED29689, ED268905, DWFK31785) all came out looking like this. Doesn't look like the data sheets.
Just wired directly + to +, - to -. 15mm Tube.
My other woofers and tweeters graph correctly.
Is there something I'm missing?


UPDATE:
It was my coupler.
I have two devices. Changed them out, and problem fixed.


----------



## shdh

johnchpark said:


> Hi, so i tried wiring and testing some of my drivers, and my fullrange drivers (ED29689, ED268905, DWFK31785) all came out looking like this. Doesn't look like the data sheets.
> Just wired directly + to +, - to -. 15mm Tube.
> My other woofers and tweeters graph correctly.
> Is there something I'm missing?
> ...


Nice, I also use REW to measure. Where did you get your coupler from?

I was thinking there should be a database of collected measurements for different drivers, similar to Crinacle's graph tool. I know there are a number of drivers for which you cannot find the actual frequency response curve. If there is interest I could put together such a tool.


----------



## stephensynanta16

shdh said:


> Nice, I also use REW to measure. Where did you get your coupler from?
> 
> I was thinking there should be a database of collected measurements for different drivers, similar to Crinacle's graph tool. I know there are a number of drivers for which you cannot find the actual frequency response curve. If there is interest I could put together such a tool.


Im interested if u gonna make one. I got similar 711 coupler as the post above, i can help a bit.

But we should start by standarizing the measuring process & parameter first.


----------



## Arturo Sallas

Hello guys. I have a few questions I´d like to ask.

I abandoned my IEM project a while ago to take care of other personal projects, but with this quarantine I took it out of the drawer and I´m back. I did a full clear model for myself and a blue and gold for my brother who is a musician, 4 drivers on both models. So far I´ve done my negatives with Gelatine + Glycerine but I struggled a bit because the gelatine is not fully clear, is a bit yellowish, so I had some poorly cured shells that I had to trash. I want to get the Dreve Fotosil 2 part silicone, but I´m not sure if it´s possible to mixwithout the machine that dreve sells. Has any of you tried mixing manually? Are bubbles a problem? I´m sure this has been mentioned before, but I couldn´t find the post.

Regards


----------



## shdh

stephensynanta16 said:


> But we should start by standarizing the measuring process & parameter first.


One thing we could do is use a common driver as a point of reference. For example, anyone that wants to contribute to the database would need to have a measurement of TWFK-30017 unfiltered with a 10mm long 1mm inner diameter tube that matches the databases existing measurements within a margin of error.

I think Banbeu has a good measuring procedure:

_Using white noise to reach 85dB(+-1.0dB) on Left channel. Maintaining same volume step in right channel_
_Resonance peaks are kept as close as 8.000Hz as possible (Consider this as a guidelines, the insertion peak might varies on some IEM like ER4S where I intentionally left a >10kHz insertion to emulate a deep insertion)_
_Microphone are calibrated using provided file from manufacturer_
_Soundcards are calibrated using either manufacturer files (if available) or by running a sweep with an external loopback setup using REW_
_Sine sweep are ran with Length = 256k and Sample rate of 48kHz with 1 repetitions_
_dB Scale: 60 - 110dB_
We could also standardize the tube length and inner diameter to match a standard. Or have a variety of tube length measurements specified, along with any applied filters.


----------



## Bassiklee

Fotosil is not perfectly clear either.  Apparently Klarsil is.  I have a Dosper,  only because I got it for ridiculously cheap.  Having used the 2L kit of Fotosil,  I'm not sure if I'd bother with it again.  It's not that much better than hydrocolloid,  and it's pretty expensive.  I figure about $4 a pair of investments.


----------



## johnchpark (Sep 20, 2020)

I'm using some Taobao 711 coupler, but it measures relatively close to Crin's graphs, so pretty reliable I think.

Question,
I set up my crossovers, and I can measure each driver separately to confirm that it's the shape I want.
But when I try to stick the tubes together in a makeshift "nozzle" (I made a tube shaped cylinder with Egger resin and drilled holes to stick the tubes in), the mid and bass drivers don't seem to graph.
Is it not possible to graph the FR without putting everything in a closed shell?

Individual driver measurements:





Combined Measurement:


----------



## musmecca

johnchpark said:


> I'm using some Taobao 711 coupler, but it measures relatively close to Crin's graphs, so pretty reliable I think.
> 
> Question,
> I set up my crossovers, and I can measure each driver separately to confirm that it's the shape I want.
> ...


Most people will use bluetac or some other soft moldable material to seal the tubes in place COMPLETELY. If you have any leaks, it willl show up particularly in the loss of low frequency which is what you are expereincing....they have to be completely sealed. Once it is sealed, any variations can usually be attributed to phase cancellation/driver interaction issues. Just because they look great individually doesn't mean they will behave nicely once together, but it's a start.


----------



## johnchpark

musmecca said:


> Most people will use bluetac or some other soft moldable material to seal the tubes in place COMPLETELY. If you have any leaks, it willl show up particularly in the loss of low frequency which is what you are expereincing....they have to be completely sealed. Once it is sealed, any variations can usually be attributed to phase cancellation/driver interaction issues. Just because they look great individually doesn't mean they will behave nicely once together, but it's a start.



So it doesn't have to be in a sealed shell, but the tubes should all be sealed with the coupler completely? 

Thanks, I'll give it another try.


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## mattmatt (Sep 20, 2020)

shdh said:


> One thing we could do is use a common driver as a point of reference. For example, anyone that wants to contribute to the database would need to have a measurement of TWFK-30017 unfiltered with a 10mm long 1mm inner diameter tube that matches the databases existing measurements within a margin of error.
> 
> I think Banbeu has a good measuring procedure:
> 
> ...


If you guys want to have a really standardized measurements across a specified group, one can measure a single ba with a 0.4cc coupler, BA directly place in the coupler, export as CSV file. Share the CSV file.

Other people from the group should measure the same BA and same parameters. Export his measurement as CVS. From this CSV, we can open it via excel. The values can be deducted and copy-pasted to a notepad as saved as .mic file. import it as a calibration file.

That way, a group will have the same measurements regardless of the mic and soundcard differences.

I managed to do this to one of my mics with improper response.

It will be great if someone can do this with a standard and original IEC coupler but I think the knockoffs have a near perfect response.


----------



## johnchpark




----------



## stephensynanta16

johnchpark said:


> I'm using some Taobao 711 coupler, but it measures relatively close to Crin's graphs, so pretty reliable I think.
> 
> Question,
> I set up my crossovers, and I can measure each driver separately to confirm that it's the shape I want.
> ...


Yo bro, we're using similar method 🤣, hi five. Its even look very similar, lol. Mine's 3d printed.

Bass rolloff, it might be because the adapter has some leak, i put masking tape on mine, so i can fit it tightly into the coupler.

There will be some weird dip somewhere, due to our not-so-compliant adapter, dont worry about it.

About ur combined graph mid, check the phase, then try to match phase of all driver by tweaking with the polarity. There's some phase cancellation i guess.


----------



## johnchpark

For multi tubes (4 tubes), do you make one big bore down the nozzle, stick with the drivers in, and then seal it by adding more UV resin down rhe bore?
Or drill 4 separate holes? 
im still not good with the dremel, so i cant seem to get many holes without running out room or cracking the shell


----------



## musmecca

johnchpark said:


> For multi tubes (4 tubes), do you make one big bore down the nozzle, stick with the drivers in, and then seal it by adding more UV resin down rhe bore?
> Or drill 4 separate holes?
> im still not good with the dremel, so i cant seem to get many holes without running out room or cracking the shell


Start with a fine point diamond burr, not a drill. See my pic...I work from left to right. Once you are in with a burr, start moving up sizes until you get the diameter you want. It usually is best to get one big hole then fill in if you are doing 3 or more holes. I don't use drill bits, as they will catch on the edge and crack your shell. Last, you must have big ears....mine are big and I can only fit 3 tubes with at least 1 being a 1mm!


----------



## johnchpark

musmecca said:


> Start with a fine point diamond burr, not a drill. See my pic...I work from left to right. Once you are in with a burr, start moving up sizes until you get the diameter you want. It usually is best to get one big hole then fill in if you are doing 3 or more holes. I don't use drill bits, as they will catch on the edge and crack your shell. Last, you must have big ears....mine are big and I can only fit 3 tubes with at least 1 being a 1mm!



thanks!
I got the diamond tip set so i get what youre saying. Ill give it a shot!
And yea, my ears are on the bigger side...i can fit a Z1R in comfortably. Problem is, the bend is almost at a 90 degrees, so i have to drill from two sides i think


----------



## musmecca

johnchpark said:


> thanks!
> I got the diamond tip set so i get what youre saying. Ill give it a shot!
> And yea, my ears are on the bigger side...i can fit a Z1R in comfortably. Problem is, the bend is almost at a 90 degrees, so i have to drill from two sides i think


Are you using acrylic? If so, check your wall thickness and curing time. Shoot for 2MM thickness.  If you have very thick walls, you may be over-exposing which will solidify the canal...you will have to drill every time.


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## shdh (Sep 22, 2020)

Could someone with an IEC60318-4 compliant coupler share their measurement of a Knowles CI-22955 driver.

Please use an 8mm long, 1mm inner diameter tubing with no filters from the driver to the coupler.

If you have a different recommendation for tube length from balanced armature to coupler, I'm all ears.

I measured using REW: 20Hz to 20KHz, 128k length, 8 sweeps.




REW Export Measurement as Text:





My initial measurement is available on curvedb.com

I'd like to start creating an open database of balanced armature driver response curves, and also impedance curves on curvedb.com - if you would like to contribute, please send me a private message on here.


----------



## tedbender84

Hi guys.
 This year I made two pairs of home made ciems - masm6 and masm 3 pro and really fall in love with diy ciem making.
At present moment I’m thinking of building ciem with Sonion drivers and want to taste sound of their EST drivers. I have on hands 4 pcs of 38d1xj007, 4 pcs 38AJ00 7Mi/8a, 4 pcs of 2389 drivers and pair of quad EST electrostat. I wish to ask what will be the best crossing options to combine this drivers? I open for any advice/recommendation and open for discussion.


----------



## mattmatt

shdh said:


> Could someone with an IEC60318-4 compliant coupler share their measurement of a Knowles CI-22955 driver.
> 
> Please use an 8mm long, 1mm inner diameter tubing with no filters from the driver to the coupler.
> 
> ...


This is great! How did you manage to seal the tube with the coupler? Mind sharing?


----------



## tedbender84

I have a question about CI-22955 plus TWFK-30017 build. I have a bunch of them and want to make a pair for my friend. He want a good low end and good treble, he mainly listens modern electronic dance music. Can I just use for example 2xCl plus a single twfk without electronic crossover?


----------



## tedbender84

Or I can go with much simpler build and use GV-32830(is this cl combined with twfk in one module?) and what is tubing length and dampers recommendation?


----------



## Bassiklee

That would not be ideal.  It would work, and make sound. Do a search.  There are at least two different crossovers for CI/TWFK posted in these pages. Start with the GK circuit,  for example


----------



## tedbender84

Bassiklee said:


> That would not be ideal.  It would work, and make sound. Do a search.  There are at least two different crossovers for CI/TWFK posted in these pages. Start with the GK circuit,  for example


So your recommendation is to go for a plain single GK driver? Correct?


----------



## Bassiklee

The GV is a HODVTEC/TWFK. The GK is the CI/TWFK


----------



## Bassiklee

tedbender84 said:


> So your recommendation is to go for a plain single GK driver? Correct?




Since you already have the drivers,  no.  My recommendation is to search for the crossover specs and build it yourself. It's two components.


----------



## musmecca

Bassiklee said:


> That would not be ideal.  It would work, and make sound. Do a search.  There are at least two different crossovers for CI/TWFK posted in these pages. Start with the GK circuit,  for example


I have done the twin ci and single twfk build. It is difficult and requires a crossover. I would start simple.


----------



## tedbender84

musmecca said:


> I have done the twin ci and single twfk build. It is difficult and requires a crossover. I would start simple.


What is a crossover configuration - low pass for cl and hi-pass for twfk? Or cl - low pass and twfk full range, or cl - full range and twfk hi-pass?


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## shdh (Sep 24, 2020)

mattmatt said:


> This is great! How did you manage to seal the tube with the coupler? Mind sharing?


I 3D printed a part I designed that accepts a 1.5mm outer diameter, 1mm inner diameter tube, then I used blue tack to seal the part to the coupler. I am using the Vibro Labs Veritas, so it’s not an actual IEC711 coupler, but it’s good enough for initial measurements. I should buy a proper coupler off Taobao or AliExpress though.

Is this an adequate coupler? Or should I be looking for a different one?


----------



## LeaveMasonAlone

Since we're all talking about couplers, I'd also be interested to know which taobao couplers people have had luck with. And also, I just bought a UMIK-1 before I knew about said couplers, can they be used with that?


----------



## musmecca

tedbender84 said:


> What is a crossover configuration - low pass for cl and hi-pass for twfk? Or cl - low pass and twfk full range, or cl - full range and twfk hi-pass?


Search for "scary" build and also piotrus-g. It's his design....it has everything necessary for the build. It does take a larger shell so it isn't suitable for small ears. I also can't stress enough this is a hard build that requires skill. That being said, it is my favorite build so far..plenty of bass with a large stage and excellent seperation.


----------



## shdh

LeaveMasonAlone said:


> Since we're all talking about couplers, I'd also be interested to know which taobao couplers people have had luck with. And also, I just bought a UMIK-1 before I knew about said couplers, can they be used with that?


I found this great thread which has a great deal of information on couplers. Also page 7 has links to a number of couplers as well.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/audio-measurements-on-a-headfi-budget.893084


----------



## dhruvmeena96

tedbender84 said:


> What is a crossover configuration - low pass for cl and hi-pass for twfk? Or cl - low pass and twfk full range, or cl - full range and twfk hi-pass?


CI 22955
Use resistor like 20ohms or more
Add dual Yellow at center
16mm tube 2mm ID

TWFK
470nF to WBFK
White damper at center
16mm tube

Taobao don't sell anymore and sell the coupler for 800$ on aliexpress
Shiet



About me using no software or calculator or even coupler
Is practice. I use standard crossover set for most of my diy build and swap between drivers(until or unless its a special build)

I used to make hearing aids for social service and at that time I used to have coupler


----------



## dhruvmeena96

musmecca said:


> Search for "scary" build and also piotrus-g. It's his design....it has everything necessary for the build. It does take a larger shell so it isn't suitable for small ears. I also can't stress enough this is a hard build that requires skill. That being said, it is my favorite build so far..plenty of bass with a large stage and excellent seperation.


Its advanced level for sure
It needs a shell where you can put dual CI

The best part about that build is that even though its standard V shape

The Subbass CI actually helps in whole detail and subbass retention

And I feel its better than FIBAE 4 (@piotrus-g ...).. But thats my take and take it as a grain of salt


----------



## tedbender84

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Its advanced level for sure
> It needs a shell where you can put dual CI
> 
> The best part about that build is that even though its standard V shape
> ...


Do you mean to use a single CL? And with dual CL may I use a same 20ohm and some how dampen one  with acoustic filters and let a second CL run full range?

Also I’m interesting in Sonion build with parts I mentioned few posts earlier - 38d1xj007 as a sub bass(do I need to low pass it since it has accuphase?), 38AJ00 7Mi/8a - as woofer( here I believe need to make a low pass filter?) and 2389 as full range(without any electronic filter or with simple hi pass?) and icing on cake - quad est with hi pass around 13khz. Does a 2389 need to have a low pass to combine with est? It seems to me this driver has a natural slope from about 7-8khz.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

tedbender84 said:


> Do you mean to use a single CL? And with dual CL may I use a same 20ohm and some how dampen one  with acoustic filters and let a second CL run full range?
> 
> Also I’m interesting in Sonion build with parts I mentioned few posts earlier - 38d1xj007 as a sub bass(do I need to low pass it since it has accuphase?), 38AJ00 7Mi/8a - as woofer( here I believe need to make a low pass filter?) and 2389 as full range(without any electronic filter or with simple hi pass?) and icing on cake - quad est with hi pass around 13khz. Does a 2389 need to have a low pass to combine with est? It seems to me this driver has a natural slope from about 7-8khz.


it is a CI(i for intelligent) and not CL   
38D1XJ is the best subwoofer and also make implementing subwoofer very easy 
use a 37 or a 33 as a woofer or midband pass


----------



## JEHL

Another noob question. Would it be possible to put together a 4 way 1DD 3BA under $50? And how much lower could it go if it is?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

JEHL said:


> Another noob question. Would it be possible to put together a 4 way 1DD 3BA under $50? And how much lower could it go if it is?


yes 
its possible 
but you have to ditch Sonion, Bellsing and knowles

 you have to get BA from here http://www.china-armature.com/en/product/dt/ and also that too in mass order 

then you might be able to produce that 50$ iem 

it is more possible as a business stand point but it is currently very hard to do in DIY


----------



## Bassiklee

JEHL said:


> Another noob question. Would it be possible to put together a 4 way 1DD 3BA under $50? And how much lower could it go if it is?




With the amount of work that goes into these,  and the fact that GOOD drivers really aren't that much more $$,  why bother?


----------



## JEHL

Bassiklee said:


> With the amount of work that goes into these,  and the fact that GOOD drivers really aren't that much more $$,  why bother?


I'll admit is just out of pure curiosity given the fact that the KZ ZS7 is a 4 way 1DD 4BA for $50, I probably shouldn't be afraid to spend a little more if needed.


----------



## Bassiklee

They are also buying thousands of pieces at a time,  so whatever drivers they're using,  they are getting for way less.  My estimation,  if they sell them for $50 retail,  their parts cost is probably less than $12.50.


----------



## JEHL

Bassiklee said:


> They are also buying thousands of pieces at a time,  so whatever drivers they're using,  they are getting for way less.  My estimation,  if they sell them for $50 retail,  their parts cost is probably less than $12.50.


I forgot the site but I remember the ED29689 going for $23 the unit and 500 units for $6807. So I guess some makers buy the largest bulk they can at one time.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Bassiklee said:


> They are also buying thousands of pieces at a time,  so whatever drivers they're using,  they are getting for way less.  My estimation,  if they sell them for $50 retail,  their parts cost is probably less than $12.50.


on thousand pieces, that whole costing of parts would be even lower  
maybe 8$ or something


----------



## Bassiklee

Especially since they are probably buying in 100,000 piece lots.


----------



## shdh

Found a knock off of 64 Audio's APEX module for sale on Taobao: https://world.taobao.com/item/613205571532.htm


----------



## tedbender84

dhruvmeena96 said:


> it is a CI(i for intelligent) and not CL
> 38D1XJ is the best subwoofer and also make implementing subwoofer very easy
> use a 37 or a 33 as a woofer or midband pass


Thank you for correcting me, I was pretty sure that CI is CL
Once I have 38AJ007 on hand is it possible to use it as woofer to compliment 38D1X?


----------



## musmecca

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Its advanced level for sure
> It needs a shell where you can put dual CI
> 
> The best part about that build is that even though its standard V shape
> ...


Agree with all your thoughts on the CI build, though I have not heard the Fibae 4 yet. It uses the SR and all my attempts to incorporate that driver into a build have fallen short so far.  It does show promise, but I am not as smart as Piotrus! 

Dhruv, I am looking for a very "harmon curve" build, v shaped with more accentuated bass (ie2017...see pic). Not concerned with coloration, as I have plenty of "neutral" and "flat" IEM's on the shelf. I'll be using this for EDM, Metal, Hard Rock.....no strings or classical...Got a build for me?  I know you have tried and heard a million, so though I would ask...


----------



## Farquarl (Sep 26, 2020)

musmecca said:


> Agree with all your thoughts on the CI build, though I have not heard the Fibae 4 yet. It uses the SR and all my attempts to incorporate that driver into a build have fallen short so far.  It does show promise, but I am not as smart as Piotrus!
> 
> Dhruv, I am looking for a very "harmon curve" build, v shaped with more accentuated bass (ie2017...see pic). Not concerned with coloration, as I have plenty of "neutral" and "flat" IEM's on the shelf. I'll be using this for EDM, Metal, Hard Rock.....no strings or classical...Got a build for me?  I know you have tried and heard a million, so though I would ask...


The Harman Curve is the closest thing we have to neutral/flat today.




https://www.headphonesty.com/2020/04/harman-target-curves-part-1/


----------



## shdh

I used a razor to remove the spout from an SWFK and then also used the razor to split the two halves of the SWFK into two WBFK’s.

I’m planning on using a razor to etch lines into the roof and wear away at the etched lines of the WBFK so I can try making my own makeshift TIA.


----------



## musmecca

Farquarl said:


> The Harman Curve is the closest thing we have to neutral/flat today.
> 
> 
> https://www.headphonesty.com/2020/04/harman-target-curves-part-1/


So I am clear on what you are implying, you are saying these curves are flat/neutral? My apologies in advance if I have angered the Harmon gods, but those don't look flat to me. I am not attempting to go down a rabbit hole, I'm simply looking for a bass heavy build that works. Would love your thoughts if you (or anyone else) happen to have one....


----------



## dhruvmeena96

musmecca said:


> Agree with all your thoughts on the CI build, though I have not heard the Fibae 4 yet. It uses the SR and all my attempts to incorporate that driver into a build have fallen short so far.  It does show promise, but I am not as smart as Piotrus!
> 
> Dhruv, I am looking for a very "harmon curve" build, v shaped with more accentuated bass (ie2017...see pic). Not concerned with coloration, as I have plenty of "neutral" and "flat" IEM's on the shelf. I'll be using this for EDM, Metal, Hard Rock.....no strings or classical...Got a build for me?  I know you have tried and heard a million, so though I would ask...


Tell me the drivers you wanna use



musmecca said:


> So I am clear on what you are implying, you are saying these curves are flat/neutral? My apologies in advance if I have angered the Harmon gods, but those don't look flat to me. I am not attempting to go down a rabbit hole, I'm simply looking for a bass heavy build that works. Would love your thoughts if you (or anyone else) happen to have one....


Harman is not neutral

First of all, even diffuse feild in iem is also wrong(kind of)

The diffuse feild speaker measurement is done in an anechoic chamber

But mostly studio people listen in a well damped room which is still no where near a anechoic chamber. This room starts to add room Gain below 300Hz

The bass shelf Harman decided was the bass most of the people like.

Harman is technically a diffuse feild + bass shelf + upper midrange tuning with the help of people sample

A true Neutral is what I think is Ety ER4 + bass driver to do a bass shelf rise from 150Hz

Because to mantain neutrality, you need 100Hz to 1kHz flat or relatively flat

But in iem, due to small speaker I feel some very fine midbass is lost if I try boosting from 100Hz.

150Hz is super neutral point for boost(what I have experienced)

Now the bass amount is subjective and also objective

What is the bass demand
My bass neutral won't be other bass neutral

But to keep it safe and easy

Neutral is more like 5dB to 6dB rise, 10dB is more of a subwoofer Or harmanish region

12dB is Fun

Above it is mehh


----------



## Farquarl (Sep 27, 2020)

musmecca said:


> So I am clear on what you are implying, you are saying these curves are flat/neutral? My apologies in advance if I have angered the Harmon gods, but those don't look flat to me. I am not attempting to go down a rabbit hole, I'm simply looking for a bass heavy build that works. Would love your thoughts if you (or anyone else) happen to have one....


I was being provocative on purpose you have not angered anyone  A truly "flat" response curve would not be neutral if you put it in your ear. The natural resonances which appear in your concha and ear canal can´t take effect if your ear is occluded.


dhruvmeena96 said:


> Tell me the drivers you wanna use
> 
> 
> Harman is not neutral
> ...


I pretty much agree the diffused field curve with an enhanced bass which rises from 200-100hz is the most neutral for the middled summ of listeners. This curve will look kinda like Harman curve however there are quite a few problems with targed curves like dhruv said. It is really coarse... Look at what the range is of those treble and bass adjustmends.
For the young ear for example, which is hears higher frequencys better, more bass is preffered. For older Folks that might not be true.




Here is maybe a better scaled graph of the harman curve.


----------



## stephensynanta16

shdh said:


> I used a razor to remove the spout from an SWFK and then also used the razor to split the two halves of the SWFK into two WBFK’s.
> 
> I’m planning on using a razor to etch lines into the roof and wear away at the etched lines of the WBFK so I can try making my own makeshift TIA.


bro, cut it directy on the middle of the roof, dont tamper with the etched line on the side of the roof. Its what hold the whole thing together. And do it carefuly, diafragm is less than half mm from the roof surface.

Did a mistake before, accidentally snagged my tweezer into that side line, the whole BA came undone.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Farquarl said:


> I was being provocative on purpose you have not angered anyone   A truly "flat" response curve would not be neutral if you put it in your ear. The natural resonances which appear in your concha and ear canal can´t take effect if your ear is occluded.
> 
> I pretty much agree the diffused field curve with an enhanced bass which rises from 200-100hz is the most neutral for the middled summ of listeners. This curve will look kinda like Harman curve however there are quite a few problems with targed curves like dhruv said. It is really coarse... Look at what the range is of those treble and bass adjustmends.
> For the young ear for example, which is hears higher frequencys better, more bass is preffered. For older Folks that might not be true.
> ...


there is a 2019 one 

https://banbeu.com/graph/tool/ 

 check it here


----------



## musmecca

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Tell me the drivers you wanna use
> 
> 
> Harman is not neutral
> ...


Dhruv, I currenly have on hand twfk, Ed 30761 and 29689, Gv32830, Sr6438, CI22955, Fed30048, Rab32257, Hodvtec 31618, WBFK 30019, and only the sonion 33aj007...used up my other sonion products including my 3800's. I look forward to your thoughts...sounds like the 12BD fun version is what I'm after...I do have plenty of room in my shells and am pretty good at soldering.


----------



## Bassiklee

Which flavor of TWFK? There are a few.  That's quite a pile of drivers you've got there.  I think I have you beat,  but I'm not looking for recipes.


----------



## shdh

stephensynanta16 said:


> bro, cut it directy on the middle of the roof, dont tamper with the etched line on the side of the roof. Its what hold the whole thing together. And do it carefuly, diafragm is less than half mm from the roof surface.
> 
> Did a mistake before, accidentally snagged my tweezer into that side line, the whole BA came undone.


Yup, not going to use the seam on the side of the driver. Instead I'll etch onto the lid and attempt to create my own seam that I can continue to work at until I can pull the lid off.


----------



## musmecca

Bassiklee said:


> Which flavor of TWFK? There are a few.  That's quite a pile of drivers you've got there.  I think I have you beat,  but I'm not looking for recipes.


I have the TWFK30017...Digikey/mouser make it so easy with their pricepoint discounts! LOL Any bassheavy builds that you  liked, throw them my way!


----------



## gregeagle

hey guys...Need some help...
want to build the MASM6 (Bellsing 5+RAB 32063)..... which Zobels to use.....do i use the Zobel from BS6 (22uf, 25ohm) for the BS5 aswell....because i cant calculate the Zobel for BS5....do I Need zobel for RAB???

Thanks in advance!


----------



## musmecca (Sep 27, 2020)

Farquarl said:


> I was being provocative on purpose you have not angered anyone  A truly "flat" response curve would not be neutral if you put it in your ear. The natural resonances which appear in your concha and ear canal can´t take effect if your ear is occluded.
> 
> I pretty much agree the diffused field curve with an enhanced bass which rises from 200-100hz is the most neutral for the middled summ of listeners. This curve will look kinda like Harman curve however there are quite a few problems with targed curves like dhruv said. It is really coarse... Look at what the range is of those treble and bass adjustmends.
> For the young ear for example, which is hears higher frequencys better, more bass is preffered. For older Folks that might not be true.
> ...


I know you were being provocative! And I was thinking "oh crap, we are now going to have a week long harmon debate and no one will send me a build until it's over"! LOL ...its all good. I hear you and know where you are coming from. On that note, what may shed some light on my sonic perception and highlight something that has NOT been discussed in this forum is a person's actual audiology report and personal response. I have attached mine from 2 months ago.  If someone was going to make a truly custom IEM, how could this data be incorporated into a build?  I have said most builds sound midrange sensitive/harsh and lack bass...kinda the inverse of this report.  Compensation perhaps? LMK if you have thoughts...


----------



## Farquarl (Sep 27, 2020)

musmecca said:


> I know you were being provocative! And I was thinking "oh crap, we are now going to have a week long harmon debate and no one will send me a build until it's over"! LOL ...its all good. I hear you and know where you are coming from. On that note, what may shed some light on my sonic perception and highlight something that has NOT been discussed in this forum is a person's actual audiology report and personal response. I have attached mine from 2 months ago.  If someone was going to make a truly custom IEM, how could this data be incorporated into a build?  I have said most builds sound midrange sensitive/harsh and lack bass...kinda the inverse of this report.  Compensation perhaps? LMK if you have thoughts...


That is a matter i wanted to discuss as well. To make a truly flat IEM for you you hve to adjust for your own hearing. I asked my sister which is an audiometrist, and she replied that you likely have a hardness of hearing in the mids and highs. Which acutally makes me wonder why most builds sound bright and harsh for you.

Edit:
I replied too fast! She said that this "small, little" hearing hardness can cause exactly what you described. Apparently humans have two borders/limits in hearing. One is the level at which we can hear a sound which in someone with perfect ears would be something around 0dB (which we can see in your diagramm and most frequencys) the other level is the discomfort level at which the sound becomes uncomfortable to listen to. This level doesn´t shift! So in the highs and mid you basically have a small window of enjoyable soundlevel and thats why many builds sound harsh to you.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

musmecca said:


> Dhruv, I currenly have on hand twfk, Ed 30761 and 29689, Gv32830, Sr6438, CI22955, Fed30048, Rab32257, Hodvtec 31618, WBFK 30019, and only the sonion 33aj007...used up my other sonion products including my 3800's. I look forward to your thoughts...sounds like the 12BD fun version is what I'm after...I do have plenty of room in my shells and am pretty good at soldering.


HODVTEC (internal series) L-pad 4.7obm series parallel yellow
ED29689 - green damper - 22ohm series

HODVTEC tube as long as you can fit
ED29689 10mm with green damper at 8mm

The most simple Bass shelf + diffuse feild iem

If you wanna do complex, that can be done too




HODVTEC as above

Sonion 33AJ007(internal series)
10uF 47ohm RC high pass
Red damoer at 10mm
14mm tube
Adjust electrical connection to adjust phase
Technically reverse phase.

ED29689 CT
2.2uF High pass
14mm tube
Green damper at 10mm
Again reverse phase or just check phase in FR graph

WBFK as per taste


Why did I write check electrical phase


Because in certain connection
The 33AJ will dip at 200Hz which is regular in phase with HODVTEC electrically

And uppermid will cancel on 29689 if same phase HODVTEC

As crossover shift phases

So do check, that will give you better idea as how cross behave


----------



## Bassiklee

While I agree that crossovers induce phase shift,  when you "swap the wires", you are flipping the polarity,  not the phase.  Phase has a time and frequency component. Polarity does not.  I know it's essentially semantics,  but I like to be correct in matters like this.


----------



## shdh

Bassiklee said:


> agree that crossovers induce phase shift


Doesn't phase shift only occur in crossovers that are greater than first order?

So theoretically if you only used 1st order crossover networks, could you avoid phase issues?


----------



## musmecca

dhruvmeena96 said:


> HODVTEC (internal series) L-pad 4.7obm series parallel yellow
> ED29689 - green damper - 22ohm series
> 
> HODVTEC tube as long as you can fit
> ...


Thank you sir! I will diagram these out and post them before I build. One last thing, what tube diameters and which are shared in the second version?


----------



## Bassiklee

shdh said:


> Doesn't phase shift only occur in crossovers that are greater than first order?
> 
> So theoretically if you only used 1st order crossover networks, could you avoid phase issues?




That is incorrect. Every "order" introduces phase shift


----------



## shdh

Bassiklee said:


> That is incorrect. Every "order" introduces phase shift


Ah, I see. I was curious because I read this off Wikipedia:
"First-order filters are considered by many audiophiles to be ideal for crossovers. This is because this filter type is 'transient perfect', meaning it passes both amplitude and phase unchanged across the range of interest. "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_crossover#First_order


----------



## Bassiklee

It varies. At the corner frequency,  a first order filter is generally thought of as producing a 45 degree phase shift.  That shift gets greater out of the passband,  and lesser in the passband.


----------



## tedbender84

dhruvmeena96 said:


> HODVTEC (internal series) L-pad 4.7obm series parallel yellow
> ED29689 - green damper - 22ohm series
> 
> HODVTEC tube as long as you can fit
> ...


I have few questions - when you calculating L-pad which impedance do you use, DC or related to specific frequencies from data sheet?
I want to find a crossover frequency point between 38Dj and 38AM, for me it seems to be a same like you mentioned above for HODVTEC and 33AJ. Calculator says 10uF and 47ohm will give 3db slope at 338hZ.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

tedbender84 said:


> I have few questions - when you calculating L-pad which impedance do you use, DC or related to specific frequencies from data sheet?
> I want to find a crossover frequency point between 38Dj and 38AM, for me it seems to be a same like you mentioned above for HODVTEC and 33AJ. Calculator says 10uF and 47ohm will give 3db slope at 338hZ.


DC


----------



## Farquarl

tedbender84 said:


> I have few questions - when you calculating L-pad which impedance do you use, DC or related to specific frequencies from data sheet?
> I want to find a crossover frequency point between 38Dj and 38AM, for me it seems to be a same like you mentioned above for HODVTEC and 33AJ. Calculator says 10uF and 47ohm will give 3db slope at 338hZ.


Impedance is always frequency related and you should use the impedance at the crossover point to be most accurate. Not the DC resistance.


----------



## tedbender84

Farquarl said:


> Impedance is always frequency related and you should use the impedance at the crossover point to be most accurate. Not the DC resistance.


For example 33aj has dc impedance 12ohm(believe parallel connected?) with 47ohm resistor parallel  connected to driver resistance will give to us about 10ohm total circuit resistance. Calculating rc filter with 10ohm and 10uf will give us cut off frequency - 1500hz -3db(roughly)?
Or I should not add driver resistance to total RC filter, in this case hi pass will be 338hz -3db?.
Sorry for so many questions, but after I finish reading 776 pages - I have porridge in my head


----------



## Farquarl

tedbender84 said:


> For example 33aj has dc impedance 12ohm(believe parallel connected?) with 47ohm resistor parallel  connected to driver resistance will give to us about 10ohm total circuit resistance. Calculating rc filter with 10ohm and 10uf will give us cut off frequency - 1500hz -3db(roughly)?
> Or I should not add driver resistance to total RC filter, in this case hi pass will be 338hz -3db?.
> Sorry for so many questions, but after I finish reading 776 pages - I have porridge in my head


You should use the stated impedance in the datasheet at the crossover point. The Drivers DC resistance does not matter as you are feeding your drivers AC. Impedance is frequency dependend resistance. A normal resistor has no impedance change (in the frequencys we find important) to care about. 

Take your pick


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Farquarl said:


> Impedance is always frequency related and you should use the impedance at the crossover point to be most accurate. Not the DC resistance.


I zobel everything so everything is DC to me


----------



## Farquarl

dhruvmeena96 said:


> I zobel everything so everything is DC to me


Ok... but even with theoretical flat impedance (which is not the case when a zobel is used, it is just more flat) impedance ≠ DC resistance.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Farquarl said:


> Ok... but even with theoretical flat impedance (which is not the case when a zobel is used, it is just more flat) impedance ≠ DC resistance.


I design zobel in respect to dcr now
Rather than 500Hz

Slight sound change while designing with DCR
But in multi driver, it just works

And works flawlessly


----------



## musmecca (Sep 28, 2020)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> HODVTEC (internal series) L-pad 4.7obm series parallel yellow
> ED29689 - green damper - 22ohm series
> 
> HODVTEC tube as long as you can fit
> ...


So, here is the 1st version i'll call heavy 1. Couple questions:
* You didn't specify diameter of Dtec tube...I went with 1 MM. is that fine?
*You say "yellow" are you referring to a damper on the Dtec? I didn't show one...
*The Dtec is not internally wired is it? Knowles didn't say.... So to make a series, I would take my positive line to the positive terminal, then to negative terminal, to next positive terminal, then next/last Negative terminal where it then connects with the negative side....correct? EDIT...Nevermind, I see they are connected...
*lpad has same values, not two different values...correct? I'm used to seeing two different values.


----------



## tedbender84

dhruvmeena96 said:


> I design zobel in respect to dcr now
> Rather than 500Hz
> 
> Slight sound change while designing with DCR
> ...


Regarding RC filter for still not clear - should I include driver resistance during filter calculation or not? 
I spend all day with FR plots from sonion data sheets, trying to find proper hi pass for 38dj and 38aj. From FR plot the best point to hi pass 38aj(I want to use with closed wents to match with two 2389 - around 117db with 0.1v) is 300hz. 38 aj has 118db at 300hz and 38dj has 115db at 300hz with RC hi pass 38aj will have 115db, so out put sum will be 118db. It will give bass boost about 7db from 100hz down to 20hz and flat 118db from 100 to 1000hz. I want to implement two 2389 to increase output by 3db to match 38aj. Which frequency shoud I choose  to RC hi pass those two 2389? And I calculate total dc impedance of all drivers and it’s super low - something like 1.5ohm, what is a proper way to increase it - zobel or just one resistor of 15ohm in series with all drivers?
Thanx in advance for any advises.


----------



## Bassiklee

dhruvmeena96 said:


> I design zobel in respect to dcr now
> Rather than 500Hz
> 
> Slight sound change while designing with DCR
> ...




So,  correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding of a zobel is that it's there to correct the impedance peaks/dips. As such don't they have to kind of compliment the actual numbers of what's happening,  rather than a dcr number somebody wrote on a page of specs?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Bassiklee said:


> So,  correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding of a zobel is that it's there to correct the impedance peaks/dips. As such don't they have to kind of compliment the actual numbers of what's happening,  rather than a dcr number somebody wrote on a page of specs?


i mean, for super accurate build, you have to measure every driver 
but it works with spec sheet value too 

just ask knowles for inductance, wait for reply and they will give you some drivers sample inductances 
average them all up and then work on your driver 

it works, just not as neat, there would be 0.5 to 1ohm dips here and there(often at where the impedance peak was) 

overall, its flat 

if you measure your driver with your own rig, then it reaches damm close to flat line 

but i remember once what @piotrus-g told 
it the ratio of impedance points more than impedance itself 

if you can get near 1:1 ratio on highest and lowest point. its good


----------



## Farquarl

dhruvmeena96 said:


> i mean, for super accurate build, you have to measure every driver
> but it works with spec sheet value too
> 
> just ask knowles for inductance, wait for reply and they will give you some drivers sample inductances
> ...


I get that you simplify but why take the DCR value and not the average impedance you get of the datasheet?
Take this knowles CI-22955 curve for example. DCR would be roughly where i painted the red line (20Ohms). If you cross before 300-400 hz sure go ahead and use the DCR (if so you don´t need a zobel here anyway) but it is hard for me to imagine that a simple RC zobel can flaten this impedance peak out sufficiently.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Farquarl said:


> I get that you simplify but why take the DCR value and not the average impedance you get of the datasheet?
> Take this knowles CI-22955 curve for example. DCR would be roughly where i painted the red line (20Ohms). If you cross before 300-400 hz sure go ahead and use the DCR (if so you don´t need a zobel here anyway) but it is hard for me to imagine that a simple RC zobel can flaten this impedance peak out sufficiently.


Just to remove hassle
I mean while crossing we can control many sound parameters

So a DCR zobel is kinda fool proof

For single driver iem

I use classic 500Hz data though

Plus the inductance of CI 22955 is 11.3 to 13mH(varying per sample)
As per knowles


----------



## Farquarl

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Just to remove hassle
> I mean while crossing we can control many sound parameters
> 
> So a DCR zobel is kinda fool proof
> ...


Allright, i guess where are on the same page than.


----------



## Aldo40

Hello if it helps to be more accurate for your designs, I sent a shdh to his website some used driver impedance that I measured with a DATS V3.


----------



## mattmatt

Hey guys just want to share something i whipped up some time ago. 

This is as flat as I can get. It's a 2-way, 3BA driver set up.  fairly simple.


----------



## Farquarl

mattmatt said:


> Hey guys just want to share something i whipped up some time ago.
> 
> This is as flat as I can get. It's a 2-way, 3BA driver set up.  fairly simple.


That's crazy flat!


----------



## JEHL

Speaking of target curves, by the time I forced my BL-03 to sound flat to my ears, attempting to add the EQ to existing measurements seems to turn its curve into a non bass rolled HD600 lookalike.

To my knowledge the Sennheiser HD600 isn't targeting ANY curve at all. And yet it apparently would sound very flat to my ears.

And yes I'm comparing that EQ'd BL-03 to a headphone because I never found an IEM equivalent of said headphone.


----------



## Farquarl

JEHL said:


> Speaking of target curves, by the time I forced my BL-03 to sound flat to my ears, attempting to add the EQ to existing measurements seems to turn its curve into a non bass rolled HD600 lookalike.
> 
> To my knowledge the Sennheiser HD600 isn't targeting ANY curve at all. And yet it apparently would sound very flat to my ears.
> 
> And yes I'm comparing that EQ'd BL-03 to a headphone because I never found an IEM equivalent of said headphone.


Doesn´t suprise me at all, our ears are quite different. The best approach to see what would sound flat to you in my opinion the Griesinger Method with pink noise.

" Using a known flat/accurate loudspeaker positioned in front and up close (to minimize room effects), alter the loudness of pink noise at different frequencies (every one-third of an octave) until they sound similarly loud to a pink noise at a reference frequency (500Hz). Repeat for the whole audioband. Then repeat for headphones. "


----------



## JEHL (Sep 30, 2020)

Farquarl said:


> Doesn´t suprise me at all, our ears are quite different. The best approach to see what would sound flat to you in my opinion the Griesinger Method with pink noise.
> 
> " Using a known flat/accurate loudspeaker positioned in front and up close (to minimize room effects), alter the loudness of pink noise at different frequencies (every one-third of an octave) until they sound similarly loud to a pink noise at a reference frequency (500Hz). Repeat for the whole audioband. Then repeat for headphones. "


What kind of budget am I looking at for a test like this? Cuz I don't think I have anything resembling accurate loudspeakers. I'd love to get some anyway so I have an excuse to throw parties in my neighborhood.

Edit: I am probably the most boring neighbor that my neighborhood could ask for.


----------



## Farquarl (Sep 30, 2020)

JEHL said:


> What kind of budget am I looking at for a test like this? Cuz I don't think I have anything resembling accurate loudspeakers. I'd love to get some anyway so I have an excuse to throw parties in my neighborhood.


Uhh good question. I am in the lucky position that i have a friend with a home studio and measured in monitor speakers. But guess for 200-300 €/$ you can get a nice pair of studio monitors.
Edit:
A quick internet research shows me that the Yamaha HS 8 are in quite a few best of lists in the top ranks. And with roughly 280€/$ affordable


----------



## JEHL

Sounds like I should learn to install a speaker setup before even considering the idea of a homemade IEM.

I can't imagine producing anything other than garbage if I don't even know what kind of signature I'm aiming for.


----------



## Farquarl

JEHL said:


> Sounds like I should learn to install a speaker setup before even considering the idea of a homemade IEM.
> 
> I can't imagine producing anything other than garbage if I don't even know what kind of signature I'm aiming for.


Does it need to be super flat for you? Do you want to use your IEM as actual monitors? If not don´t worry about neutrality or flatness just tune them like you want them. You said you allready had a response that sounded good for you use that.


----------



## JEHL (Sep 30, 2020)

Farquarl said:


> Does it need to be super flat for you? Do you want to use your IEM as actual monitors? If not don´t worry about neutrality or flatness just tune them like you want them. You said you allready had a response that sounded good for you use that.


Well I'm not making music so I assume the answer is no.

I think what I tend to like is either neutral with a bass boost, V that favors bass over treble, ditto for U or slightly dark (or maybe it's called N shape, I'm not sure if there are more formal names for these), the first which is what I seem to EQ to apparently this kind of signature is found on the Thieaudio Clairvoyance. I wonder if anyone with either owns that IEM, owns something with a similar signature or anyone has aimed for that signature before. Hopefully ESTs aren't actually required as they cost over $100 a pair on their own, is just the overall signature I'm after.


----------



## stephensynanta16

JEHL said:


> Sounds like I should learn to install a speaker setup before even considering the idea of a homemade IEM.
> 
> I can't imagine producing anything other than garbage if I don't even know what kind of signature I'm aiming for.


Rinse and repeat bro, rinse n repeat.

Been doin that for a year. Build anything that u want, u will pick up the know-how along the way.

If possible, get a pair of neutral iem such as etymotics. U will need them to reset ur perception. Doing diy iem may screw up ur taste. Also to serve as a reference.

Boi, claivoryance, gettin that bass shelf is a trial in itself. About est, its possible. Actually est almost doesnt shows up on FR. Est make does its magic when listened by ears, its not really good at braggin on FR, BA & planar is better at that. EST is barely visible on FR.


----------



## musmecca

dhruvmeena96 said:


> HODVTEC (internal series) L-pad 4.7obm series parallel yellow
> ED29689 - green damper - 22ohm series
> 
> HODVTEC tube as long as you can fit
> ...


 Quick question..did you mean to say 10UF/47 ohm LOW PASS filter for the sonion 33? You have the Dtec handling sub bass and the ED and wbfk for treble if necessary, so I am assuming you meant to say low pass....working on this over the weekend.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

musmecca said:


> Quick question..did you mean to say 10UF/47 ohm LOW PASS filter for the sonion 33? You have the Dtec handling sub bass and the ED and wbfk for treble if necessary, so I am assuming you meant to say low pass....working on this over the weekend.


It's high pass
We need it for 100Hz to 1khz
Crossing with the 10uF and 47ohm highpass provide the crosspoint to be at 333Hz nearby

When properly phased with woofer, this region will uplift and provide ruler flat 100Hz to 1kHz

Plus dtec fundamental mids sound awesome if you take away the subbass from it and let HODVTEC do it instead


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Oct 2, 2020)

JEHL said:


> Well I'm not making music so I assume the answer is no.
> 
> I think what I tend to like is either neutral with a bass boost, V that favors bass over treble, ditto for U or slightly dark (or maybe it's called N shape, I'm not sure if there are more formal names for these), the first which is what I seem to EQ to apparently this kind of signature is found on the Thieaudio Clairvoyance. I wonder if anyone with either owns that IEM, owns something with a similar signature or anyone has aimed for that signature before. Hopefully ESTs aren't actually required as they cost over $100 a pair on their own, is just the overall signature I'm after.


Owned 40 iems which sounds like that
Made myself

The biggest issue is that I feel the crossover aint superior to actually take out the best of the tonality
It's a bass-mids(uppermids too on same driver)-treble

But with those driver and a bit of work, this could have been bass - mids -uppermids - treble

To make it sound more effortless and less distortive plus a higher power headroom


----------



## shdh

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Own 40 iems which sounds like that
> Made myself


Wow! Mind sharing a photograph of that epic collection?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

shdh said:


> Wow! Mind sharing a photograph of that epic collection?


Have to go back to where I live
Right now living with parents in covid
But I will share for sure


----------



## tedbender84

Hi Guys!

is it a chance to find bellsing 10013 for sale? I know the story behind, looks like there is no way to find them any more from re sellers?


----------



## gregeagle

tedbender84 said:


> Hi Guys!
> 
> is it a chance to find bellsing 10013 for sale? I know the story behind, looks like there is no way to find them any more from re sellers?



write a private message to Soundlink Co.....at aliexpress....they still sell them....they dont have them on the onlinestore....
cheers


----------



## musmecca

dhruvmeena96 said:


> It's high pass
> We need it for 100Hz to 1khz
> Crossing with the 10uF and 47ohm highpass provide the crosspoint to be at 333Hz nearby
> 
> ...


Here is the schematic for the Heavy 2 version.....I kept the 22 Ohm resistor originally on the ED and used the 2.2 Uf Cap as described to get the high pass. Let me know if I've missed anything, particularly on the polarity....I reversed the ED.


----------



## Bassiklee

You've got the RC filter on the Sonion 3300 wired as an LPF.  Swap the components around.


----------



## Bassiklee

Never mind.  Brain fart.  You've got it right.


----------



## musmecca

Bassiklee said:


> Never mind.  Brain fart.  You've got it right.


It happens to me every day!


----------



## dhruvmeena96

musmecca said:


> Here is the schematic for the Heavy 2 version.....I kept the 22 Ohm resistor originally on the ED and used the 2.2 Uf Cap as described to get the high pass. Let me know if I've missed anything, particularly on the polarity....I reversed the ED.


Plus no need of adding 22ohms parallel to ED
Just make it CEnter tap 2.2uF


----------



## GeneBush (Oct 3, 2020)

For those interested in a 10 drivers with a "large" U shape sound with subbass 10-100hz; flat mids 120hz - 2khz and sparkle highs (great for singers in live situations)

Dual Sonion 38AM
R1=100 OHM

Tubing 25mm in total
10mm large tube for both spouts (3mm OD/2.5mm ID) (yellow & orange damper facing driver 3mm from spout)
9mm skinny tube 2.5 mm OD
10mm steel tube 1.5 mm OD
___________________________________
DTEC 3008 (polarity inversed)
Bandpass Filter
C1=22uF
R2=68ohm

C2=2.2uF
R3=24ohm

Tubing 35mm in total
7mm skinny tube silicone
7mm large tube (yellow damper)
17mm skinny tube silicone
10mm steel tube
___________________________________

Dual SWFK 31736

C4 = 1.5uF

Note* : You can add a R4 = 10ohm (connected in series for further attenuation)

70mm Tubing in total
10mm large tube 3mm OD/2.5mm ID silicone for both spouts
54mm skinny tube 2.5mm OD / 1.5mm ID silicone
10mm steel tube TOTAL
(length 6mm -1.5 mm OD with
Length 6mm 2mm OD/1.6mm ID hornet

All tube inserts 2mm.


----------



## musmecca

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Plus no need of adding 22ohms parallel to ED
> Just make it CEnter tap 2.2uF


Good eye! I missed the CT the first time. I assume the 2.2 cap is direct to CT since that is constant and I will reverse polarity as needed to correct phase? Here is corrected:


----------



## dhruvmeena96

musmecca said:


> Good eye! I missed the CT the first time. I assume the 2.2 cap is direct to CT since that is constant and I will reverse polarity as needed to correct phase? Here is corrected:


Reverse 33AJ too
I mean you have to check the phase in retrospect to HODVTEC

The HODVTEC damper is double yellow or 4700ohms foam damper by knowles


----------



## musmecca

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Reverse 33AJ too
> I mean you have to check the phase in retrospect to HODVTEC
> 
> The HODVTEC damper is double yellow or 4700ohms foam damper by knowles


I saw the yellow in the description of the first iteraton ( posted a few back...you possibly didn't see it) but wasn't sure if it was a typo. I assumed the tube for the Dtec is a 1 mm because you wanted it as long as possible.  If so, would I put the damper(s) right at the dtec spout?


----------



## musmecca

GeneBush said:


> For those interested in a 10 drivers with a "large" U shape sound with subbass 10-100hz; flat mids 120hz - 2khz and sparkle highs (great for singers in live situations)
> 
> Dual Sonion 38AM
> R1=100 OHM
> ...


It appears the negative for the Sonions are passing through the positive leg of the Dtec..am I missing something? Would love to see the graph of this build if you have it as well as a gut shot...interested to see if it can fit in my ear!


----------



## GeneBush (Oct 3, 2020)

musmecca said:


> It appears the negative for the Sonions are passing through the positive leg of the Dtec..am I missing something? Would love to see the graph of this build if you have it as well as a gut shot...interested to see if it can fit in my ear!


My bad on that...it was the first time that i used an app to make the schematics. Will edit it asap


----------



## musmecca

Farquarl said:


> That is a matter i wanted to discuss as well. To make a truly flat IEM for you you hve to adjust for your own hearing. I asked my sister which is an audiometrist, and she replied that you likely have a hardness of hearing in the mids and highs. Which acutally makes me wonder why most builds sound bright and harsh for you.
> 
> Edit:
> I replied too fast! She said that this "small, little" hearing hardness can cause exactly what you described. Apparently humans have two borders/limits in hearing. One is the level at which we can hear a sound which in someone with perfect ears would be something around 0dB (which we can see in your diagramm and most frequencys) the other level is the discomfort level at which the sound becomes uncomfortable to listen to. This level doesn´t shift! So in the highs and mid you basically have a small window of enjoyable soundlevel and thats why many builds sound harsh to you.


I've been thinking about this...the test I showed was ability to discern a particular frequency once it reaches a particular DB. You are correct, the TOP limit wasn't checked...is that what a "tinnitus" test does and if not does your sister know of a test that does that?


----------



## Farquarl

musmecca said:


> I've been thinking about this...the test I showed was ability to discern a particular frequency once it reaches a particular DB. You are correct, the TOP limit wasn't checked...is that what a "tinnitus" test does and if not does your sister know of a test that does that?


I found this test, i don´t think a tinnitus test is the same. 
https://www.thebsa.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Uncomfortable-Loudness-Level-1.pdf


----------



## HenacanPodwell

Hello everyone, I would like to ask a few question regarding low pass and high pass filter. How do one make low pass and high pass filter? I do find calculator online but I am not too sure what value to put into the calculator. Lets say I want a 22955 low pass at 500 hz, and 29689 high pass at 500 hz as well, how do I calculate them?

link to 29689 specification https://www.knowles.com/docs/default-source/model-downloads/ed-29689-000.pdf
link to 22955 specfication https://www.knowles.com/docs/default-source/model-downloads/ci-22955-000.pdf




29689



22955


Thank you very much!


----------



## Bassiklee

Two ways.  

One is experimentation with just a single cap on the ED and a combination of a resistor(really doesn't act as a LP filter though) and dampers on the CI.  

The other,  which is slightly more complicated,  involves building an RC filter for each pass.  The good news is that the values of the components are the same.  You start by figuring out how much attenuation (if any) is needed on your (hopefully) low freq driver,  and build that into the RC filter.


----------



## HenacanPodwell

Bassiklee said:


> Two ways.
> 
> One is experimentation with just a single cap on the ED and a combination of a resistor(really doesn't act as a LP filter though) and dampers on the CI.
> 
> The other,  which is slightly more complicated,  involves building an RC filter for each pass.  The good news is that the values of the components are the same.  You start by figuring out how much attenuation (if any) is needed on your (hopefully) low freq driver,  and build that into the RC filter.


Hello! Thank you for the reply! What are the exact values that I should be looking for and taking from the specification to calculate the RC filter? Also by attenuation do u mean by adding resistor in series to reduce the spl of the lower frequency driver?
Thank you!


----------



## musmecca

HenacanPodwell said:


> Hello! Thank you for the reply! What are the exact values that I should be looking for and taking from the specification to calculate the RC filter? Also by attenuation do u mean by adding resistor in series to reduce the spl of the lower frequency driver?
> Thank you!


I use the first calculator located below for crossovers.  I plug in values until the crossover point is found....whether it is LP or HP depends on the configuration. For 500HZ I came up with 17.7Ohms and an 18UF cap. Then you may have to adjust if there is not a readily available value, or use resistors/cap in parallel or series to get the desired point.  Regarding Zobels and padding, I use the second one, though there is lots of discussion as to which value for the impedance to use, as BA's impudence changes in relation to the frequency being applied. I usually put in an average of the datasheet values and guesstimate as to the DB drop I'm looking for. I take it you have a test rig, as it is still a lot of trial and error?

http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-RCpad.htm

http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-Lpad.htm


----------



## HenacanPodwell

musmecca said:


> I use the first calculator located below for crossovers.  I plug in values until the crossover point is found....whether it is LP or HP depends on the configuration. For 500HZ I came up with 17.7Ohms and an 18UF cap. Then you may have to adjust if there is not a readily available value, or use resistors/cap in parallel or series to get the desired point.  Regarding Zobels and padding, I use the second one, though there is lots of discussion as to which value for the impedance to use, as BA's impudence changes in relation to the frequency being applied. I usually put in an average of the datasheet values and guesstimate as to the DB drop I'm looking for. I take it you have a test rig, as it is still a lot of trial and error?
> 
> http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-RCpad.htm
> 
> http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-Lpad.htm


Hello! I see! Does that means the low pass and high pass filter should works the same for all of the drivers? I always thought that you need resistance value for the driver to make low pass filter specifically for that particular driver and the same low pass filter will cut differently on other driver. And yes I do have test rig. By the way how do I calculate or make sure that the phase is correct? Do I just do trials and errors until there is no weird dip and peak in the frequency graph? As I have heard that adding low or high pass filter will introduce phase shift.
Thank you!


----------



## HenacanPodwell

Bassiklee said:


> Two ways.
> 
> One is experimentation with just a single cap on the ED and a combination of a resistor(really doesn't act as a LP filter though) and dampers on the CI.
> 
> The other,  which is slightly more complicated,  involves building an RC filter for each pass.  The good news is that the values of the components are the same.  You start by figuring out how much attenuation (if any) is needed on your (hopefully) low freq driver,  and build that into the RC filter.


Hello, what does adding single cap to ED actually do? I see that it cut off most of the low and mid frequency, why does that happens? Since it is not really a high pass filter right? Or am I understanding it wrongly.


----------



## Bassiklee

A single cap forms a 6dB/octave HPF.  As far as how/why it works,  google is your friend.


----------



## HenacanPodwell

Bassiklee said:


> A single cap forms a 6dB/octave HPF.  As far as how/why it works,  google is your friend.


I see! Thank you! Does low pass and high pass filter does anything to the driver besides cutting the frequency and causing phase shift?


----------



## Bassiklee

I'm not sure I follow your question.


----------



## HenacanPodwell

Bassiklee said:


> I'm not sure I follow your question.


I am sorry for the confusing question. Let me try to explain it. I found out that adding a single caps to ed29689 actually changes the frequency by introduce a new peak around the treble region thus changing the overall frequency while cutting low to mid frequency. Does low/ high pass filter does anything similar like introduce a new treble peak or it is only like erasing a part of the frequency(over simplified i know).


----------



## Farquarl (Oct 5, 2020)

HenacanPodwell said:


> I am sorry for the confusing question. Let me try to explain it. I found out that adding a single caps to ed29689 actually changes the frequency by introduce a new peak around the treble region thus changing the overall frequency while cutting low to mid frequency. Does low/ high pass filter does anything similar like introduce a new treble peak or it is only like erasing a part of the frequency(over simplified i know).


Are you just hooking up this one driver? Generally a HPF or LPF does not introduce new peaks but it can definitely happen. A Zobel Network can sometimes be used to tame a weird crossover behaviour.


----------



## HenacanPodwell

Farquarl said:


> Are you just hooking up this one driver? Generally a HPF or LPF does not introduce new peaks but it can definitely happen. A Zobel Network can sometimes be used to tame a weird crossover behaviour.


Yup, I was only testing up ed29689. I see! Thank you very much! You really helped me clear up my confusion a lot!


----------



## Farquarl

Can someone tell me how JH Audio measures the phase/time aligment? What software do they use and how do they wire up the drivers? I can´t wrap my head around it, in order to measure phase you would need to drive each driver individually right? But you also need to go through the propper crossover channels. 
It would be really cool to be able to measure phase alignment.


----------



## GeneBush

Farquarl said:


> Can someone tell me how JH Audio measures the phase/time aligment? What software do they use and how do they wire up the drivers? I can´t wrap my head around it, in order to measure phase you would need to drive each driver individually right? But you also need to go through the propper crossover channels.
> It would be really cool to be able to measure phase alignment.


They use Smaart for measurements and they measure all drivers together how they react with one another regarding phase.


----------



## Farquarl

GeneBush said:


> They use Smaart for measurements and they measure all drivers together how they react with one another regarding phase.


Thanks!
Smaart is pretty expensive for a hobbyist  . I´ll look into this topic a bit more there must be a way which is cheaper.


----------



## gregeagle

Some of my latest builds....
BS6Z and MASM6!!!🤘🤘🤘


----------



## Farquarl

gregeagle said:


> Some of my latest builds....
> BS6Z and MASM6!!!🤘🤘🤘


Dope! That is some damn fine work.


----------



## mattmatt

gregeagle said:


> Some of my latest builds....
> BS6Z and MASM6!!!🤘🤘🤘


Dope!! What did you use for coloring your resin? This look great!  I still have a hard time with proper black pigments.


----------



## gregeagle

mattmatt said:


> Dope!! What did you use for coloring your resin? This look great!  I still have a hard time with proper black pigments.


I am using the black Fotoplast vom dreve!! Make slightly thicker shells!


----------



## tedbender84

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Yah, but the drivers are slightly changed
> 
> For TAEC, it is treble pressure reduction resonator which actually started working properly from gen 2 of Andromeda.
> It is a big 3D printed adapter for spoutless BA, which helps the BA eliminate small spout resonance and some other resonance, which leads to peakless lower treble.
> ...


Dear dhruvmeena96,

I missed this your post, but come to same idea by my self regarding Sonion build.
May I ask you to guide me a bit for this design? Please don’t send me to do measurements my self, because I work far away from civilization in the heart of Africa, only one instrument I have is a multimeter. So, no chance to make a proper test rig and check FR. Only theoretical calculation is an instrumen.

1. 
Sonion 38D1XJ007Mi/8a series wired(full range electronically, damped by internal factors, dampers and L-pad)

L-pad
Rseries = 4.7ohms
Rparallel = 4.7ohms

by how many decibels you want to attenuate a subwoofer to match with 33AJ? I don’t have this driver(33Aj) on hand and want to use 38aj with closed vents, they have a similar sensitivity  with 33aj, 117.5db average.

2. which is crossover frequency did you choose for 33AJ? You are saying  to connect this driver in series(internally) but there is no impedance data for series connection for 33aj, but for 38aj it’s jump from around 12ohm  in parallel connection to around 50ohm and higher in series wiring. My thoughts that is better to use it in series to get more mids frequency's and damp it with strongest acoustic damper to achieve kind of low pass filter.
3.I don’t have D2389 but have 4pcs ordinary 2389, so the principle will be a same two drivers in series with center tap and same 2.2uF capacitor for hi-pass.
4. I have a pair of quad EST drivers, but their sensitivity a much lower than even 2389, or it’s ok because they will work with super high frequency’s and 10db less in sensitivity will be on the edge of human hearing?

thank you for any useful advices and guides.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

tedbender84 said:


> Dear dhruvmeena96,
> 
> I missed this your post, but come to same idea by my self regarding Sonion build.
> May I ask you to guide me a bit for this design? Please don’t send me to do measurements my self, because I work far away from civilization in the heart of Africa, only one instrument I have is a multimeter. So, no chance to make a proper test rig and check FR. Only theoretical calculation is an instrumen.
> ...


Do you have a scientific calculator used in schools and colleges
And consistent internet

That's all you need 


With 4.7ohm series parallel LPad with series internally 38D1XJ

You drop 10dB.
And also lower impedance to below 10ohms and flat impedance

Use this as the base of your build

For 33AJ
Once you series it interally

Use a RC high pass crossover with parallel resistor near the value of series driver
This way

10uF will give you approximately 300Hz(use different value as per taste, bigger value caps means lower frequency cross). RC crossover on 33AJ and also will merge with 38D1XJ on loudness scale to create a neutral mid tone with room Gain.

If you have 38AJ with sealed vent
Do the same

But in 38D1XJ woofer(this D1XJ is woofer)
Drop series resistance of 4.7Ohm to value of taste.. like 2ohms

Because 38AJ is louder than 33AJ and so you then need  moar dB on 38D1XJ.


For uppermids

You will only need one 2389..

There are three taps

First draw diagram and connect wire to any one side terminal.
If it's postive

Then the center terminal is -

If the side terminal is - 

Then the center terminal is +


This is called Center tap or half coiling. This lower the impedance and inductance and makes the driver uppermid to treble efficient as low inductance driver are not good on bass.

And you technically halved the inductance causing a bass to mid region energy drop

Now use a capacitor from value ~6uF to 1uF
As per taste again.


In the end
Check the sound and if you follow this guide, you will hear weird suction or vocal sounding far away or bass being boomy

This means you did everything ryt, now it's time to adjust phase.

Keep woofer the same and invert the mid driver(swap the + to - on mmcx or 2pin comnector for that specific driver)

Hear again and check
The booming bass will be fixed

If lack of mid image or forefront is lacking

Invert the 2389

It will be fixed

The solution is
Woofer Lpad
Mid inverted RC high pass
Uppermid half coiled high pass


This is how you arrange drivers


For 
Tubes

For now keep all the tubes ID and tubes lenght same

14mm lenght 1.5 or 2mm ID

For damper
If you are using 38D1XJ
Use single yellow

For mids 38AJ
Use red

For upper mids
Use white


----------



## tedbender84

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Do you have a scientific calculator used in schools and colleges
> And consistent internet
> 
> That's all you need
> ...


Thank you a lot. I will try to go this way. But before want to order test rig and complete this build when will come back to home. 
One more question - phase reverting - 1st order filter doesn’t shift phase(am I wrong?), why its necessary to invert mid and treble?

 Any recommendations for microphone and a coupler. Aliexpress offers so many different couplers price ranging 10-800 usd. If anybody have  good experience with decent quality items pls give a seller name.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

tedbender84 said:


> Thank you a lot. I will try to go this way. But before want to order test rig and complete this build when will come back to home.
> One more question - phase reverting - 1st order filter doesn’t shift phase(am I wrong?), why its necessary to invert mid and treble?
> 
> Any recommendations for microphone and a coupler. Aliexpress offers so many different couplers price ranging 10-800 usd. If anybody have  good experience with decent quality items pls give a seller name.


Use taobao
Try to get help here 
And find coupler and way to ship to you


----------



## dhruvmeena96

What do you guys think about wbfk at 10uF and 15ohms series resistor with RAB

Do tell me


----------



## HenacanPodwell

Hello! Does anyone have a good diffused field tuning recommendation for cl 22955 and 29689? Also does increasing driver counts(lets say using 2 22955) improve the headroom and details besides spl and reducing distortion. Thank you!


----------



## mattmatt

dhruvmeena96 said:


> What do you guys think about wbfk at 10uF and 15ohms series resistor with RAB
> 
> Do tell me


What specific RAB? Why would you need 10uf with WBFK?


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Oct 10, 2020)

mattmatt said:


> What specific RAB? Why would you need 10uf with WBFK?


I am trying to integrate wbfk inside RAB zobel itself

So rab zobel is 10uF and 27.5ohms

Wbfk is 12.5ohms(I will zobel it)

So by equation

10uF + 12.5ohms(wbfk) + 15ohms

This makes zobel for RAB, extra energy which the zobel decoupled(impedance rises because driver start creating energy, the zobel actually causes it to get wasted, thus decoupling amp and driver when there is a impedance spike or rab pushing back energy. But as we know the resistor is still a lossy part in a circuit and we can further use that zobel's resistor energy to power another driver)

Increasing the Efficiency value of system by having less power wasted overall.

When we make this zobel with resistor of 27.5 ohm replaced by flattened wbfk and 15ohms series resistor

We get a 10uF from the zobel itself as the high pass for Wbfk

That's why I asked

I mean I was imagining this
Complex zobel fusion crossover system so I can make amp think that it's powering a flat impedance 22ohm RAB driver while using the waste energy which could be generated into heat as energy and signal to power wbfk

I am not able to tag friends with whom I have talked about it(don't know why so)

Stephensynata
Xymordos
DannyBouwuis
Toranku
Xpalandix

And discussing its viability and may try it

It wont be great from tonal point of view as I know 10uF is high for wbfk

But want to see how efficient it can get in outputting the energy (1W in - how many watts out acoustically)
And how much power temperature ratio can we stabilize on FED as FED can change sound as per temperature and even when you power it a lot, it's tonal character shifts


I was getting bored and thought let's innovate something new again with my Bros on this thread

And create some more crazy builds as I was getting bored

Making iem actually saves me from boredom(I got to know)

RAB is 32033/32257
Any 22ohm RAB

Wbfk is 30018/30095


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Oct 10, 2020)

Here you go

Every zobel resistor can be replaced with a 
tweeter driver and resistor combo 

So zobelception

@stephensynanta16 
@xpaladinx 
@Xymordos 
@toranku 
@Jedrula1 
@Senor CIEM 


And many other people from this thread I know personally 

We were discussing about this

Plus if my theory is ryt
If you keep all the tube lenght same

The iem should be electrically and acoustically phase flat in this setup


----------



## stephensynanta16

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Here you go
> 
> Every zobel resistor can be replaced with a
> tweeter driver and resistor combo
> ...


Did @dhruvmeena96 's schematic with 32257 & wbfk, it has great FR



impedance is still considered flat. The concept works.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

This is a concept and the FR is more generic but still passable as iem(for those from Harman kardon or diffuse feild faction)

But this concept prooves that we can trick the amp into seeing RAB with zobel
Take the resonant back energy which driver use to push against amp(on the peak point) and drive wbfk

So I want to say, we can put a tweeter or uppermidrange in zobel and trick amp into seeing the main driver
And all the so called waste energy (energy should be never wasted-converted into heat wherever possible)
This will reduce/split/remove the zobel resistor and replace that with tweeter.

Advantage, using main speaker energy to wbfk
A better load sharing
Less heat release(it doesn't matter much but from engineering point of view , we have better energy conversion to better impedance ratio)

This is still in beta stage as the zobel is more hit and try


----------



## Farquarl

stephensynanta16 said:


> Did @dhruvmeena96 's schematic with 32257 & wbfk, it has great FR
> 
> impedance is still considered flat. The concept works.


Now built this in with a normal zobel configuration and compare the output. Only if there is less output in dB this can be considered energy saving.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Oct 11, 2020)

Farquarl said:


> Now built this in with a normal zobel configuration and compare the output. Only if there is less output in dB this can be considered energy saving.


It is not saving energy
It's using the energy which would have back fire to amplifier as would have seen as impedance peak on stock rab

Zobel lowpass the upper freq on driver(where we have those bad imoedance spike) and the parallel a resistor to linearize the impedance and get the signal back

But that zobel eats it's own energy as it's a circuit in the loop

What we are trying to do is reduce zobel energy eaten by its resistor and place a driver there

While also decoupling the RAB from amp and making amp only see a Flatten RAB

If you see the impedance carefully
It shows the impedance what you will expect from single driver being zobelled

This is one way of seeing it

Another way of seeing this is
RAB back generated energy is filtered by zobel so amp can be smooth as possible

And we are using that energy


----------



## Xymordos

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Here you go
> 
> Every zobel resistor can be replaced with a
> tweeter driver and resistor combo
> ...



Question: Would this not be treated as a simple 10uf high pass + zobel on the WBFK, and full range on the RAB?


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Oct 11, 2020)

Xymordos said:


> Question: Would this not be treated as a simple 10uf high pass + zobel on the WBFK, and full range on the RAB?


It would be
But then also as RAB zobel where zobel actually makes sound

You can take it in as many way as possible
The thing is that it works

It could be taken as what you guys heart desire

I have to still see the distortion
If it is lower then it's good

The advantage of this zobel fusion crossover is that

It put both RAB and wbfk in same phase acoustically

And amplifier sees Only rab + zobel in the circuit

And annoying peaks and dB of wbfk is damped 


The con is
Restrictive design and needs preplanning



One more thing, do see there is a 15ohm in series to wbfk
So it's a zobel

10uF + 27.5ohms
Or
10uF + WBFK zobel DCR + 15ohms

We are only reducing the energy converted into heat by 27.5ohms by using wbfk and 15ohms


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Simple words
It is a zobel 
Where zobel acts as a high pass to Tweeter

And can be turned into zobel-ception / crossover-ception

As you can put driver into ever zobel and make.it act as highpass

Do see the polarity because you guys might have to reverse it

But the main part is
The amp sees only the top fullrange driver only

Main idea was to hide drivers in impedance chart.
Conventional crossover can have weird impedances all over the places


----------



## mattmatt

stephensynanta16 said:


> Did @dhruvmeena96 's schematic with 32257 & wbfk, it has great FR
> 
> impedance is still considered flat. The concept works.


what tube length did you use for this?


----------



## Farquarl

dhruvmeena96 said:


> It is not saving energy
> It's using the energy which would have back fire to amplifier as would have seen as impedance peak on stock rab
> 
> Zobel lowpass the upper freq on driver(where we have those bad imoedance spike) and the parallel a resistor to linearize the impedance and get the signal back
> ...


A zobel filter creates a second path in parrallel to the driver with a reversed impedance effectifely creating a voltage devider and smoothing the imepdance. You are right in that this additional  pathway consumes power. and creates heat. So when you said that you wanted to use that wasted energy i assumed you wanted to be more efficient or "save energy". The back EMF with BA´s is so minimal and the output impedance of a normal recent AMP is so low that this has no noticable effect.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Oct 11, 2020)

Farquarl said:


> A zobel filter creates a second path in parrallel to the driver with a reversed impedance effectifely creating a voltage devider and smoothing the imepdance. You are right in that this additional  pathway consumes power. and creates heat. So when you said that you wanted to use that wasted energy i assumed you wanted to be more efficient or "save energy". The back EMF with BA´s is so minimal and the output impedance of a normal recent AMP is so low that this has no noticable effect.


I mean to say, if this is used in speaker per se.
As this is not only restricted to iem BA.

Plus Back EMF with BA is minimal but the impedance it creates is not. And it makes amp go weird. That extra zobel energy which is being wasted plus that minuscule back energy(because zobel redirects the pathway of back emf to its own resistor as per theory) powers up the wbfk. This plus a zobel on wbfk and everything combined

This system is wasting less energy/effective signal strength compared to stock zobel based system and giving you the benifits if a cross system and a flat impedance. And also that signature zobel sound also.

And the tweeter can be added inside tweeter zobel till infinity also or selecting proper drivers which match main driver zobel resistor can effectively reduce the losses

I just want to say, it's more universal and we can take any theory for it and move forward with design.
It's more cohesive, better for tricking amp to see flat impedance and hiding crossover impedance mess, better for being more efficient and reducing zobel heat losses(which is also tiny, but then as being a DIYer, if we don't go to extreme, then we are not doing it well enough/


----------



## Xymordos

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Simple words
> It is a zobel
> Where zobel acts as a high pass to Tweeter
> 
> ...




Hmm that's an interesting idea actually, but how would the driver in between affect the zobel values though?


----------



## Farquarl (Oct 11, 2020)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> I mean to say, if this is used in speaker per se.
> As this is not only restricted to iem BA.
> 
> Plus Back EMF with BA is minimal but the impedance it creates is not. *And it makes amp go weird*. That extra zobel energy which is being wasted plus that minuscule back energy(because zobel redirects the pathway of back emf to its own resistor as per theory) powers up the wbfk. This plus a zobel on wbfk and everything combined
> ...


For that i would like to see a source.

Edit. I don´t want to come of as rude! It is a good idea to potentially make a system more sensitive. I just doubt that a boucherot cell is needed or benificial for anything other than improving  crossover behavior.


----------



## larry piencenaves (Oct 12, 2020)

Hey guys, new to this thread hoping someone could help me from this..

I tried on modding my wired iems, but when I cut the cable Im suprised i saw 3 braids instead of just 2. How am i supposed to solder this thing? I should just guess and check right?


----------



## Farquarl

larry piencenaves said:


> Hey guys, new to this thread hoping someone could help me from this..
> 
> I tried on modding my wired iems, but when I cut the cable Im suprised i saw 3 braids instead of just 2. How am i supposed to solder this thing? I should just guess and check right?


Where did you cut your wire exactly? If you cut it befor the Y section one is the positive of the left one is the positive of the right and one is ground. (Its called stereo sound, crazy i know!)


----------



## stephensynanta16 (Oct 13, 2020)

mattmatt said:


> what tube length did you use for this?


its a tubeless design, kinda works like TAEC. Sadly, i cant share it here, owned by my workplace. But u should be able to get similar result with 15mm tubes and some damper.


----------



## Farquarl

stephensynanta16 said:


> its a tubeless design, kinda works like TAEC. Sadly, i cant share it here, owned by my workplace. But u should be able to get similar result with 15mm tubes and some damper.


Where do you work?


----------



## JEHL

Now I did mention wanting to go for a 4 way 1DD 3BA. But should I assume 4 way is spreading the roles of even the most specialized BAs so thin that I should just go with a 3 way 1DD 2BA instead?


----------



## Arturo Sallas

Hello Guys.

This is a 4 driver IEM.
HE-31751
CI-22955
WBFK - 30095 - White damper

The logo is done with adhesive Vinyl and covered with resin to seal it. When curing the resin on top of the logo I couldn´t get the whole faceplate to cure, only the center cured poperly, which in this case is convenient because I was only trying to seal the vinyl. But if I wanted to do wood or other materials, how do you guys do to isolate the resin from the air so it cures the whole faceplate?


----------



## mattmatt

Arturo Sallas said:


> Hello Guys.
> 
> This is a 4 driver IEM.
> HE-31751
> ...


You don't have to. Cure it longer than usual, wipe of the excess/inhibition layer and sand it before lacquer. That's how I do mine.

Neat faceplate! How did you manage to cut it?


----------



## musmecca

Arturo Sallas said:


> Hello Guys.
> 
> This is a 4 driver IEM.
> HE-31751
> ...


I mix my resin then pour onto a sheet of glass. I hit it for 30 seconds to get a skin (otherwise it will flow too thin when glass is placed on top), then I place another sheet of glass on top. It makes a perfect thickness without any tacky layer at all. Once removed, put a logo on then use lac 3 to finish it all.


----------



## johnchpark (Oct 17, 2020)

6BA build.
1st attempt on the shell and it straight ugly.
LR tuning also off...the Green line (right) is the intended tuning and was how it measured out of the shell while initially tuning. Not sure what happened with the purple (left) side...maybe some wires touching inside...


----------



## johnchpark (Oct 18, 2020)

This is the left side before closing the shell (green) and after (purple). Makes me think when i pushed the components in, some passives ended up touching

UPDATE
went in and realized one of the fullrange drivers got unhooked.
Fixed.
Blue line is CIEM form and green is UIEM (subbass roll off due to fit)


----------



## JEHL

Is this actually a BA https://www.knowles.com/docs/default-source/model-downloads/sr-32453-000.pdf ? Very unconventional shape for a BA, to the point where if someone gave it to me and told me it's a DD, I'd believe it.


----------



## duo8

JEHL said:


> Is this actually a BA https://www.knowles.com/docs/default-source/model-downloads/sr-32453-000.pdf ? Very unconventional shape for a BA, to the point where if someone gave it to me and told me it's a DD, I'd believe it.


I think it's shaped that way so it can be a drop-in replacement for DDs.


----------



## Bassiklee

Right from the link you posted. Yes,  it's a BA


----------



## gregeagle

hey guys.....need some help on crossover.....
what do think about that....
could that work out.... to get some good soundstage....and kickass Bass


----------



## JEHL

Bassiklee said:


> Right from the link you posted. Yes,  it's a BA


I mean I know it's made by Knowles. I know it says Balanced Armature in the spec sheet.

Is just the shape that throws me off since It seems to be one of a kind of sorts.

Claims full range but apparently another spec sheet shows quite a bit of a distortion spike at 2kHz, so I'd imagine this would make a good woofer?


----------



## johnchpark

Hi,
What are some options to add color to clear UV resin?
I'm using Egger clear, and Egger UV lacquer.
Maybe mixing nail polish into the liquid resin?
thanks


----------



## gregeagle

johnchpark said:


> Hi,
> What are some options to add color to clear UV resin?
> I'm using Egger clear, and Egger UV lacquer.
> Maybe mixing nail polish into the liquid resin?
> thanks


your best bet would be resin Obsession or Daler-Rowney Acryl ink.....they both work pretty good! i would definately would not use nail polish...


----------



## johnchpark

thanks!

so do you mix the acryl ink with the liquid resin before casting, or do you paint over the hardened resin before lacquering? 



gregeagle said:


> your best bet would be resin Obsession or Daler-Rowney Acryl ink.....they both work pretty good! i would definately would not use nail polish...


----------



## gregeagle

johnchpark said:


> thanks!
> 
> so do you mix the acryl ink with the liquid resin before casting, or do you paint over the hardened resin before lacquering?


mix before casting!!!!!


----------



## gregeagle

johnchpark said:


> thanks!
> 
> so do you mix the acryl ink with the liquid resin before casting, or do you paint over the hardened resin before lacquering?


after mixing colour to resin.. let it sit for a while so the bubbles who apeared during mixing remove!! but be aware...if you wait to long the color might sit back to the bottom!
then do the casting shells...


----------



## johnchpark

Thank you!
Just ordered a few Daler-Rowney FW Pearlescent acryl inks.
Seems like 1 part ink to 10 part resin’s what ppl use?
Does it come out as solid color or translucent?



gregeagle said:


> after mixing colour to resin.. let it sit for a while so the bubbles who apeared during mixing remove!! but be aware...if you wait to long the color might sit back to the bottom!
> then do the casting shells...


----------



## Bassiklee

If your ink is an opaque,  it will either not work,  or take a long long time to form a shell. I have a LED box with eight LED bars in it.  It's WAY too strong.  I can form shells in 12 seconds with clear resin.  Using black,  it's 20 min,  and black resin is still translucent,  barely. 

You will have much better luck with translucent inks than with opaque stuff.


----------



## musmecca

Bassiklee said:


> If your ink is an opaque,  it will either not work,  or take a long long time to form a shell. I have a LED box with eight LED bars in it.  It's WAY too strong.  I can form shells in 12 seconds with clear resin.  Using black,  it's 20 min,  and black resin is still translucent,  barely.
> 
> You will have much better luck with translucent inks than with opaque stuff.


I second this. I usually just do clear or lightly tinted shells then treat the inside of the shell for the desired effect. These purple ones were clear. I simply used metallic nail polish to cost the inside, then floated polish in water to get to the spots a brush couldn't reach.


----------



## HenacanPodwell (Oct 25, 2020)

Hello everyone, I have been trying to figure out how to do a low pass RC filter but I just couldn't even after days of trying and reading, maybe I am just dumb.
So I tried to do cutoff frequency at around 800 hz at 22955. Which I used 20 ohm connected series to the 2 pin, and then parallel 10uf. 
Can someone helps pointing out my mistake?
Thank you!

Edit: Solved


----------



## Farquarl

HenacanPodwell said:


> Hello everyone, I have been trying to figure out how to do a low pass RC filter but I just couldn't even after days of trying and reading, maybe I am just dumb.
> So I tried to do cutoff frequency at around 800 hz at 22955. Which I used 20 ohm connected series to the 2 pin, and then parallel 10uf. As shown below.
> 
> But somehow it doesn't cutoff the frequency at all, but it did change the FR slightly.
> ...


This looks like a low pass filtered driver for me. Compare the unfiltered curve with the lowpass to the unfiltered curve of the normal driver and you'll see the difference.
This RC Filter is a first order lowpass it is just 6dB dropoff per octave you can't expect just the sound to disappear. Also the dB scale is logarithmic so 10db less equals half the sound pressure.


----------



## HenacanPodwell

Farquarl said:


> This looks like a low pass filtered driver for me. Compare the unfiltered curve with the lowpass to the unfiltered curve of the normal driver and you'll see the difference.
> This RC Filter is a first order lowpass it is just 6dB dropoff per octave you can't expect just the sound to disappear. Also the dB scale is logarithmic so 10db less equals half the sound pressure.


I see! Thank you very much! now I understand what does the 6db dropoff per octave means. I was kinda confused as high pass on my 29689 works as if it cuts off all the frequency.




Now I finally understand how low pass works! Thank you very much!!!


----------



## Farquarl

HenacanPodwell said:


> I see! Thank you very much! now I understand what does the 6db dropoff per octave means. I was kinda confused as high pass on my 29689 works as if it cuts off all the frequency.
> 
> Now I finally understand how low pass works! Thank you very much!!!


Are you sure this is totally sealed? A simple high pass shouldn't be this steep.


----------



## HenacanPodwell

Farquarl said:


> Are you sure this is totally sealed? A simple high pass shouldn't be this steep.


Yup its sealed, 29689 center tap with series caps and series resistor


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Farquarl said:


> Are you sure this is totally sealed? A simple high pass shouldn't be this steep.


Centertap
It will be this steep


----------



## tomekk

HenacanPodwell said:


> I tried to do cutoff frequency at around 800 hz at 22955



You can test 150-200uF/10ohm to deep cutoff. If you are using  CI you can try 68uF/10ohm and orange/red filter.


----------



## mattmatt

I think you need to have to be a bit more aggressive with crossovers. Like what they said, a basic RC low pass does not block off high frequencies right off the bat. You can still use dampers to cut off higher frequencies. Other brands actually don't use low pass filters but just aggressive with dampers and sound tubes. 

Here's a RC low pass of CI using 22uf and 27ohms.


----------



## HenacanPodwell

tomekk said:


> You can test 150-200uF/10ohm to deep cutoff. If you are using  CI you can try 68uF/10ohm and orange/red filter.


I see! I was trying to bring out more subbass from 22955 and making it tight, I should try them out!




mattmatt said:


> I think you need to have to be a bit more aggressive with crossovers. Like what they said, a basic RC low pass does not block off high frequencies right off the bat. You can still use dampers to cut off higher frequencies. Other brands actually don't use low pass filters but just aggressive with dampers and sound tubes.


That is very interesting. What value of low pass filter would you usually suggest to bring out more subbass and more deep cut off? I heard that red damper is very popular with 22955 so I will be trying it out !


----------



## Farquarl

HenacanPodwell said:


> I see! I was trying to bring out more subbass from 22955 and making it tight, I should try them out!
> 
> 
> 
> That is very interesting. What value of low pass filter would you usually suggest to bring out more subbass and more deep cut off? I heard that red damper is very popular with 22955 so I will be trying it out !


Take the highest.


----------



## HenacanPodwell

Farquarl said:


> Take the highest.


The 22995 actually sound muddy and not as tight with yellow damper. Does high value damper causes something to sound muddy?


----------



## Farquarl

HenacanPodwell said:


> The 22995 actually sound muddy and not as tight with yellow damper. Does high value damper causes something to sound muddy?


Not quite sure what you mean by tight? a high value damper acts as a lowpassfilter and a lowpassed filter wont exactly sound crystal clear.


----------



## mattmatt

HenacanPodwell said:


> The 22995 actually sound muddy and not as tight with yellow damper. Does high value damper causes something to sound muddy?


That's the inherent characteristic of 22955 I guess. Slow and boomy. A resistor _might _help a bit. As you can see, using a low pass filter somehow smoothes out 20-250 region to a flatter response.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

mattmatt said:


> That's the inherent characteristic of 22955 I guess. Slow and boomy. A resistor _might _help a bit. As you can see, using a low pass filter somehow smoothes out 20-250 region to a flatter response.


CI has big diaphragm which is hard to move making it slow when you only hear the bass region.

But my suggestion is make an ER4 and use dual yellow on CI.

Then tune CI with L-pad to control bass boost and tighten it up

You will get flat impedance for free as well


----------



## HenacanPodwell

mattmatt said:


> That's the inherent characteristic of 22955 I guess. Slow and boomy. A resistor _might _help a bit. As you can see, using a low pass filter somehow smoothes out 20-250 region to a flatter response.


Wouldn't using resistor also smoothes out 20-250 region to a flatter response too? From what I tried, using resistors always causes flat low.
I was hoping that I could have 22955 sounded fast, clean and tight. I suppose I would have to upgrade to hodtec or maybe sonion?


----------



## HenacanPodwell

dhruvmeena96 said:


> CI has big diaphragm which is hard to move making it slow when you only hear the bass region.
> 
> But my suggestion is make an ER4 and use dual yellow on CI.
> 
> ...


Oh! I havent really tried using L pad, have been reducing spl with only resistor but it somehow flattens the low which is not a good thing in my case. I shall look into it!


----------



## musmecca

HenacanPodwell said:


> Oh! I havent really tried using L pad, have been reducing spl with only resistor but it somehow flattens the low which is not a good thing in my case. I shall look into it!


Out of curiosity, what diameter tube are you using? You can increase bass response/limit HF by going to a smaller diameter...say 1MM or 1.5M vs the 2MM standard.


----------



## HenacanPodwell

musmecca said:


> Out of curiosity, what diameter tube are you using? You can increase bass response/limit HF by going to a smaller diameter...say 1MM or 1.5M vs the 2MM standard.


I am using 1.2mm for 22955, and a short 2mm in the middle for the damper to sit on.
I was thinking of even longer tube (3 cm) but it mess up the phase 😕


----------



## Farquarl

HenacanPodwell said:


> I am using 1.2mm for 22955, and a short 2mm in the middle for the damper to sit on.
> I was thinking of even longer tube (3 cm) but it mess up the phase 😕


The Wavelength of 150Hz for example is 228cm don´t worry about tube length


----------



## HenacanPodwell

Farquarl said:


> The Wavelength of 150Hz for example is 228cm don´t worry about tube length


What does this means? I am confused. Does that means that using a longer tube for bass driver shouldn't affect the phase?


----------



## Farquarl

HenacanPodwell said:


> What does this means? I am confused. Does that means that using a longer tube for bass driver shouldn't affect the phase?


Well it does effect phase, it just doesn´t effect it very much. Imagine a sine wave at 150Hz. You want to avoid that the peak of one driver and the valley of another driver overlap and create interference cancellaction. Lets say each driver puts out its signal in perfect phase aligment just the tube length will differ. In order to create total interferance cancellation you would have to attach a tube of half of the wavelength so in this case around 114cm. What i want to say is that the longer the wavelength is the more negligible the tube length becomes for phase aligment.


----------



## HenacanPodwell

Farquarl said:


> Well it does effect phase, it just doesn´t effect it very much. Imagine a sine wave at 150Hz. You want to avoid that the peak of one driver and the valley of another driver overlap and create interference cancellaction. Lets say each driver puts out its signal in perfect phase aligment just the tube length will differ. In order to create total interferance cancellation you would have to attach a tube of half of the wavelength so in this case around 114cm. What i want to say is that the longer the wavelength is the more negligible the tube length becomes for phase aligment.


I see! Besides phase cancellation, what else does a good phase alignment do? I see big company like JH always make sure their phase alignments are close to perfect, even to the point of not caring much about the tube resonance(tweeter having 2 times the length of woofer).


----------



## Farquarl

HenacanPodwell said:


> I see! Besides phase cancellation, what else does a good phase alignment do? I see big company like JH always make sure their phase alignments are close to perfect, even to the point of not caring much about the tube resonance(tweeter having 2 times the length of woofer).


Nothing really, good phase aligment does exactly that: Avoiding cancellation...


----------



## HenacanPodwell

Farquarl said:


> Nothing really, good phase aligment does exactly that: Avoiding cancellation...


I see! Thank you very much!


----------



## dhruvmeena96

@foxfoxfox do ask any question. Would be glad to help you out

You have been liking my post which feels weird. Hahahhahahaha


----------



## MISHKA2020

mattmatt said:


> Anyway, here's another build. Hope you guys also posts photos of your recent builds!


Woow , this looks perfect ! Can you tell me some tutorial how to make that perfect, rounded and smooth end of tubes? This is so perfect that you can't even see the end of the tube. I thought it was a 3D print


----------



## foxfoxfox

dhruvmeena96 said:


> @foxfoxfox do ask any question. Would be glad to help you out
> 
> You have been liking my post which feels weird. Hahahhahahaha


Hello Mr. dhruvmeena96,

Haha cool that you're wondering 🤣
The reason is:
My Knowles GV bass driver dies after few minutes of music, but recovers after few minutes of no music.
Similar problem to eunice.
*Did anyone find an explanation for dying Knowles GV bass?*
In this forum, you mentioned some reasons for that GV bass death (e.g., pressurization issues), which i liked.
(I also liked posts where something is summarized up or explained for noobs.)
Therefore I'm looking for new recipes (mainly from your kitchen 😉).
I plan to build Finale 2.

And maybe use a different HODVTEC of the broken GV.

*Has anyone tried something with Knowles GU? With added tweeter for > 4kHz?*


----------



## HenacanPodwell

Hello everyone, anyone know where I can find sonion e25 series of super tweeter?
I searched everywhere but I couldn't find one, the only one on taobao has only a stock.
Reason I am looking for it is because it is arguably best super tweeter(?), and i really like sonion's sound when compared to knowles.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

foxfoxfox said:


> Hello Mr. dhruvmeena96,
> 
> Haha cool that you're wondering 🤣
> The reason is:
> ...


Try making Final 2

Every penny worth 
If properly executed

GV and GK are not that great compared to self build iem


----------



## MISHKA2020

Hi guys. I hope to write in the right place... I'm pretty new here but have been trying to make custom ear molds for a few months now. I learned a lot from your tips and posts and thank you all for that! You are great ! I have one question ... Has anyone tried to put SHURE 215, 315, 425 and 535 drivers into custom molds ? I tried first with a simple 215 and of course after a tube of 2mm and a length longer than 15mm, the sound changes. Everything is very prominent in the range from 800hz to 2 kh. Does anyone have any experience and advice on how to extract the original sound from SE215?
Thanks in advance


----------



## BigBublik

I look at the beautiful Empire Ears Odin and ItsfitLab Fusion headphones but I do not know how they make such beautiful faceplate?


----------



## MISHKA2020

Cevisi said:


> Today i was able to listen to my first build
> 
> Rab 23063 12mm id 2mm tube whit 2mm 1mm id adapter on the nozzel and green filter at 10 mm
> 
> ...








Xymordos said:


> Just the Taobao IEC711 with the shop's sound card. Gonna shop for a THX amp instead of the sound card as it will be more accurate.
> 
> For face plate I usually drip a little onto a flat surface cure it, then resin the IEM onto the face plate before peeling it off. If I want to do wood or other materials I just glue it onto the resin face plate.




Hi, what do you use when gluing wood or other materials? What glue?


----------



## Xymordos

MISHKA2020 said:


> Hi, what do you use when gluing wood or other materials? What glue?



Resin works fine with wood. Or super glue too


----------



## MISHKA2020

Xymordos said:


> Resin works fine with wood. Or super glue too




Great ! I have to try. I tried to get something like this on picture  with some kind of thin metal but i didn't maked. Do you maybe know how it do it ?


----------



## Bassiklee

That looks like a doming resin,  probably with dye in it,  on top of a brushed metal foil.


----------



## MISHKA2020

Bassiklee said:


> That looks like a doming resin,  probably with dye in it,  on top of a brushed metal foil.



Yes. That's right. But what kind of foil? And how to make that resin adhere well to the foil? I'm afraid it'll come off easily?


----------



## Aldo40

BigBublik said:


> I look at the beautiful Empire Ears Odin and ItsfitLab Fusion headphones but I do not know how they make such beautiful faceplate?


it’s a resin expert doing this in eight layers, I think there’s even a patent


----------



## JEHL

I should have probably asked this as my very first question but has any of you written an in depth guide on how to get started with your first home made IEM?


----------



## mattmatt

JEHL said:


> I should have probably asked this as my very first question but has any of you written an in depth guide on how to get started with your first home made IEM?



I think there's a pdf around here that tackles that exact same topic. Never got a read tho. I just eyeballed mine from scratch. Still no expert but I think I improved from experience. There will always be differences from setups. 



MISHKA2020 said:


> Yes. That's right. But what kind of foil? And how to make that resin adhere well to the foil? I'm afraid it'll come off easily?


You can try to look for metal vinyl stickers then use colored resin.


----------



## MISHKA2020

mattmatt said:


> I think there's a pdf around here that tackles that exact same topic. Never got a read tho. I just eyeballed mine from scratch. Still no expert but I think I improved from experience. There will always be differences from setups.
> 
> 
> You can try to look for metal vinyl stickers then use colored resin.



Great. Tnx 😊


----------



## musmecca

JEHL said:


> I should have probably asked this as my very first question but has any of you written an in depth guide on how to get started with your first home made IEM?


The guide to most things IEM is here.  Worth the time to read....

https://docs.google.com/document/d/...Jh_bh3fuUBNe2HrQg/edit#heading=h.t2frpipmdu4k


----------



## cyph3r

Knowles acoustics just launched a new dual driver, the GM-34020. Is it worth looking into? Lets have a look.

I got a pair in just recently and below is my summary.

*First dimensions:*
in below two images you see from left to right three different two driver modules: a rather old Sonion dual driver from my "museum", the Knowles GQ and the new GM-34020. Its quite evident that the GM is indeed the smallest of all of those, mose strikingly its very thin in dimensions.





If you look up the dimensions of the GMs larger unit (woofer midrange), you immediately see that they are identical to the RAB series. The tweeter on top has virtually the same dimensions as the WBFK sitting on top the GQ, but it looks different. So my hunch is that likein the case of the GQ (ED plus WBFK), Knowles chucked a RAB togetther with a tweeter to give this combination.


Lets have a look at the back side:




No PCB here, like on the GQ. Instead, the 1uF cap is soldered directly on the driver as high pass filter, as the only cross-over component, no resistor here. Also noticable the the terminals appear to be customized for this setup. you can clearly see the wires (red / green) of the RAB unit emerging from the case and ending up in the terminal solder pads. You can hardly see it here but much of the back side, including wires  and even most of the terminals are embeded in some kind of resin. The resin also surrounds the terminal solder pads which makes it difficult to solder. At closer look everything looks a bit handmade, which it actually is (assembly and soldering).

The woofer / midrange unit, lets call it the RAB unit is vented, on the bottom side. The vent is really tiny, probably laser-drilled but its there, check out the datasheet to locate it. 

I soldered some leads to one unit and measured impedance:



This looks roughly like the impedance shown on the info sheet. There is this rather annoying broad peak exceeding 50 ohms between ca 50 a nd 1200 Hz which tops 200 ohms, quite a wild ride in a short part fo the spectrum . Flatter would be definitely better...

Frequency response: while I am working to get the bloody export function going from my own measurements here is a placeholder copy from the data sheet, which looks kinda like harmon reference curve.



My own data looks different and is much flatter on the lower frequencies (yep, vent hole kept unobstructed) and an earlier drop off in the high range. Course, its all in the measurement equipment differences. I usually can quite well replicate data sheets FR between 100 - 5000 Hz, and its oddly different with this driver. Maybe have to revisit this. Interestingly, the distortion is nicely flat across the frequency spectrum even at rather loud settings. Good job. 

Subjective testing: I soldered a connector and integrated this into my earphone platform for a listening test. After some few minutes of initial listening, its quite evident that its a very analytic driver. Low frequencies are reduced. Its less bassy and also less efficient that the GQ. 

Overall my initial verdict is that this driver is an interesting setup for very tiny spaced arrangements; Knowles is targeting the crazily growing true wireless earphone space with this. Price range TBD, but its probably equal or higher than GQ. However, I personally feel that the rather flat response doesnt confer a nice musical athmosphere. I tend to have a tad more low, / mid range. Not sure yet if this module serves good purposes outside the TWS space...


----------



## Kulgrinda

Very noob question about crossovers. So when looking at the calculators I see second order filters created from capacitor and inductor, but I've never seen here people sharing this kind of filters nor I see them in already done setups (such as Knowles GK). Even first order filters are made from Capacitors (high pass) and inductiors (low pass), but for example GK has capacitor and resistor for a filter. Am I mistaken? Are these filter calculator not applicable for earphones? Or maybe Inductor is interchangeable with resistor?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Kulgrinda said:


> Very noob question about crossovers. So when looking at the calculators I see second order filters created from capacitor and inductor, but I've never seen here people sharing this kind of filters nor I see them in already done setups (such as Knowles GK). Even first order filters are made from Capacitors (high pass) and inductiors (low pass), but for example GK has capacitor and resistor for a filter. Am I mistaken? Are these filter calculator not applicable for earphones? Or maybe Inductor is interchangeable with resistor?


Inductors are big and smd inductor are of useless value

So we use RC cross


----------



## Kulgrinda (Nov 7, 2020)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Inductors are big and smd inductor are of useless value
> 
> So we use RC cross


Go it. Saw that there are SMD inductors available. Found RC calculators, will try it, thank you! It appears speaker values are not taken into consideration in RC filter.


----------



## Kulgrinda

Any ideas why CI low passed with RC (50 ohm rez series + 10 uF cap parallel) made the driver so lean? Also tried about the same low pass for hodvtec and result was more to what I had expected


----------



## Aldo40 (Nov 7, 2020)

[QUOTE = "Kulgrinda, message: 15962321, membre: 485276"]
Des idées pour ça CI low passé avec RC (50 ohms série rez + 10 uF cap parallel) a rendu le pilote si maigre? J'ai également essayé le même passe-bas pour hodvtec et le résultat était plus à ce que je m'attendais





[/CITATION]


50 ohms is a lot, tried 4.7 ohms and reversed the IC polarity to check the measurement


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Kulgrinda said:


> Any ideas why CI low passed with RC (50 ohm rez series + 10 uF cap parallel) made the driver so lean? Also tried about the same low pass for hodvtec and result was more to what I had expected


I guess you did the connection in reverse
Looks like high pass rather than low pass



Kulgrinda said:


> Go it. Saw that there are SMD inductors available. Found RC calculators, will try it, thank you! It appears speaker values are not taken into consideration in RC filter.


One more thing

SmD inductor have high resistance so it kinda become RLC crossover

So do check on that if you want to use inductor

And also
BA imoedance is not flat, so you might get even weird results


----------



## mattmatt

dhruvmeena96 said:


> I guess you did the connection in reverse
> Looks like high pass rather than low pass
> 
> 
> ...


JH uses smd inductors


----------



## dhruvmeena96

mattmatt said:


> JH uses smd inductors


Custom smd inductors


----------



## Kulgrinda

dhruvmeena96 said:


> I guess you did the connection in reverse
> Looks like high pass rather than low pass
> 
> 
> ...


Indeed it acts like high pass, but as per theory high pass would be capacitor is series before resistor (closer to the input + wire) + resistor in parallel. I have connected CI RC low pass correctly, checked it twice.


----------



## MISHKA2020

Hey guys...
One question about glycerol. Maybe is now some new theory... How many times can glycerol be used? Except when crumbs of leftover shells accumulate...


----------



## MISHKA2020

Ok. New question... 😇 I have UE triple Fi 10's. I will put them into custom mold. Any advice, should i put dampers (red & green) on 5 and 7 mm or some mm further ? Also how long tube (2mm ID) have to be? Tnx


----------



## Kulgrinda

MISHKA2020 said:


> Hey guys...
> One question about glycerol. Maybe is now some new theory... How many times can glycerol be used? Except when crumbs of leftover shells accumulate...


I use the same glycerol for over a year already, tens of shells baked in it. No flakes, no coloration as of yet.

I suggest reading Sonion documentation on IEM manufacturing (google it, pdf provided in their site), it has some good examples on tube length and effect to the sound. Also they have 3 "recipes" for IEMs, I'm going to try their 2 driver setup in upcoming month.


----------



## MISHKA2020

Kulgrinda said:


> I use the same glycerol for over a year already, tens of shells baked in it. No flakes, no coloration as of yet.
> 
> I suggest reading Sonion documentation on IEM manufacturing (google it, pdf provided in their site), it has some good examples on tube length and effect to the sound. Also they have 3 "recipes" for IEMs, I'm going to try their 2 driver setup in upcoming month.




Thank you. I read that. I will definitely do it again because I am weak in the field of electronics. Here I came up with a little trick for “us” who don’t have 711 and similar testing devices, so the only option is our own ears! That way I will test my TripleFi 10's and color and positions of dumpers.

Procedure:
Fill the Impression Kit into a 5ml syringe. Make sure there is no air in between! When dry, remove and cut as two small rolls. Shape the edge that goes into the ear. Drill the rollers depending on the required number of holes and the thickness of the tube you use on the drivers (two tubes 3OD for my setup). I hope you find it useful. Good luck


----------



## HenacanPodwell (Nov 10, 2020)

Hello guys! I am facing this problem frequency changes on different amp.
I have been using my Ifi nano BL iematch which is for sensitive iem and headphone as an output to my iem and to measure.
Recently I have tried using the direct output and other amp and noticed a 2-3db decreases on the low end.



Note they are from the same iem.



Only low end.
This has became a problem as driving the iem from my phone and other amp sounded bright with reduced bass, while driving the iem with my dap sony a46 and ifi iematch is warmer with more bass.
I tried 22955 with the same low pass filter 20uf 5ohm, and it has the same result as well, my mid to high does not have any rc filter
Why is this happening?And is there anyway to prevent this from happening?
Thank you very much!

Edit: I tested out the low end without any rc filter, it had the opposite result where the direct output from my ifi nano bl has about 2 db more bass.


----------



## ForceMajeure

HenacanPodwell said:


> Hello guys! I am facing this problem frequency changes on different amp.
> I have been using my Ifi nano BL iematch which is for sensitive iem and headphone as an output to my iem and to measure.
> Recently I have tried using the direct output and other amp and noticed a 2-3db decreases on the low end.
> 
> ...



This is due to the effect of the various Output Impedances of your sources with your iem (which is BA based and has a non linear impedance has well). It's caused by the interaction between the voltage drop on the output of your source and your iem.

Since your iem has a different impedance (resistance) depending on the frequency (typical BA based iem behavior), the voltage delivered to it will change with frequency.
The voltage from your amp is shared between the output of your amp and the iem, the iem will have a different voltage drop depending on how high the source impedance is. Thus altering the iem response depending on the output impedance of your source.

If the iem had a linear impedance (usually DD based iems are more less like that) it wouldn't have mattered much what is the OI of your source, the response would have stayed the same. But here we are dealing with a BA iem that have a non linear impedance thus this is happening.

A way to alter this behavior is using a voltage divider apparatus such as the the ifi IEmatch (although iirc it still has ~2.5ohm impedance which is not ideal depending on the iem you want to use) or build such an external device yourself. 

Or trying to achieve a more linear impedance designing your iem either via using lpads/voltage dividers or/and zobels and more...

That's why it's usually recommended for your source to have an output impedance <1ohm, that way the iem response will be less affected (assuming the intended response from the manufacturer was designed on such a source with a <1ohm OI. it wasn't always the case)

Some people actually like the fact that some iems can slightly change behavior with different impedance in front because it allows them to play with cable and sources to find the right "synergy" 

If you want to learn more about it there is an Nwavguy post about output impedance that explains it


----------



## ForceMajeure (Nov 10, 2020)

Actually re-reading your post it seems you might be aware of the effect of different OI on your iem. Regardless, when you add/change crossovers you also change the impedance behavior of your iem thus the change with and without an rc for the CI

If you want to dive deeper to know the behavior of your iem you need to measure it's impedance response as well and see the change when you use different crossovers


----------



## HenacanPodwell (Nov 10, 2020)

ForceMajeure said:


> Actually re-reading your post it seems you might be aware of the effect of different OI on your iem. Regardless, when you add/change crossovers you also change the impedance behavior of your iem thus the change with and without an rc for the CI
> 
> If you want to dive deeper to know the behavior of your iem you need to measure it's impedance response as well and see the change when you use different crossovers


I see! Thank you for the reply!
I tried adding rc filter to my mid high drivers just to test it out and see if it changes from different amp just to experiment(I dont have the tool to measure impedance yet), but its only the low end that changes.

This is becoming a problem as it sounded bright on my phone which is not what I want, I am thinking of changing the whole circuit into one without low pass rc but using only dampers.

Is this one of the reason why most brands do not use RC filter for low pass?

If you don't mind would you guide me to what does L pad and voltage divider do to BAs? I know that L pad are usually used to reduce spl but I didn't know it could change impedance as well!

Also regarding zobel I couldn't find the details of the driver for zobel calculation(22955), is there any other way to calculate it?
Thank you very much!


----------



## Memej

Hi all, I just finished reading the whole thread from the beginning 🤯 respect for everyone, I found the forum after creating my first CIEM, but it's addictive wants to do another better ... I wanted to try bellsing 6 but I can't search for it anywhere...


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Memej said:


> Hi all, I just finished reading the whole thread from the beginning  🤯 respect for everyone, I found the forum after creating my first CIEM, but it's addictive wants to do another better ... I wanted to try bellsing 6 but I can't search for it anywhere...


its EOL for normal world


----------



## Memej

Maybe someone has already solved the problem zobel for GV? I'm just learning electronics I don't know much yet...


----------



## MISHKA2020 (Nov 12, 2020)

Hello guys. I need a little help. I'm starting to make MASM7. I’ve been keeping Bellsing 10013 for a year now for this moment. I can't find (ceramic) CAP's of 22uF and 5uF in my area. They said it's not standard .  Are they from aliexpress good (link below) ?  Also 38Ohm rez... Can i connect them in series  ? Thanks to everyone who has experience.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/329...earchweb0_0,searchweb201602_,searchweb201603_


----------



## ForceMajeure

HenacanPodwell said:


> I see! Thank you for the reply!
> I tried adding rc filter to my mid high drivers just to test it out and see if it changes from different amp just to experiment(I dont have the tool to measure impedance yet), but its only the low end that changes.
> 
> This is becoming a problem as it sounded bright on my phone which is not what I want, I am thinking of changing the whole circuit into one without low pass rc but using only dampers.
> ...




No this is not the reason why many brands didn't use rc lowpass. 
an Lpad is a voltage divider, depending on implementation you could achieve a more linear impedance behavior. if you want to start knowing what you are doing then you have no choice than build a jig to measure your impedance and play around with values to see the changes.

Regarding a zobel for a CI you could try values 15uf and 27ohm, but it doesn't ensure you won't have the same behavior. again, the impedance behavior you have depends on the overall response of your complete config not parts of them.


----------



## ForceMajeure

MISHKA2020 said:


> Hello guys. I need a little help. I'm starting to make MASM7. I’ve been keeping Bellsing 10013 for a year now for this moment. I can't find (ceramic) CAP's of 22uF and 5uF in my area. They said it's not standard .  Are they from aliexpress good (link below) ?  Also 38Ohm rez... Can i connect them in series  ? Thanks to everyone who has experience.
> 
> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/329...earchweb0_0,searchweb201602_,searchweb201603_



Yes these capacitors should be ok and yes you can connect different resistor values to achieve 38ohms it's ok.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

MISHKA2020 said:


> Hello guys. I need a little help. I'm starting to make MASM7. I’ve been keeping Bellsing 10013 for a year now for this moment. I can't find (ceramic) CAP's of 22uF and 5uF in my area. They said it's not standard .  Are they from aliexpress good (link below) ?  Also 38Ohm rez... Can i connect them in series  ? Thanks to everyone who has experience.
> 
> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/329...earchweb0_0,searchweb201602_,searchweb201603_


I think this build is too old now 
LoL

I think

Try RAB32033 with zobel and wbfk or tweeter inserted in zobel's resistor part(wbfk will be flattened out with its own zobel)

I did some pages ago

You can experiment with tubes and damper but that will get you better distortion figure, better impedance, better drive characterstics and better efficiency (not the dB, but electrical power loss)

Plus it's cheaper


----------



## MISHKA2020

Thanks guys ! I follow everything regularly. @dhruvmeena96  I know this build is old but these are the only drivers (10013 and 32033) I currently have and will be great for one of my first build. I will definitely try your suggestion too and thank you for that!  So far, I’ve only put Shure and similar brands in shells for friends. By the way I am a singer and acoustic guitar player and I will definitely be looking for lighter tone iem's with moderate bass. Does anyone have any experience which lineup would be good for bassists and drummers? This 4 way (from musmecca) seems interesting to me. This is definitely my next investment, as soon as the gigs start in the next century


----------



## dhruvmeena96

MISHKA2020 said:


> Thanks guys ! I follow everything regularly. @dhruvmeena96  I know this build is old but these are the only drivers (10013 and 32033) I currently have and will be great for one of my first build. I will definitely try your suggestion too and thank you for that!  So far, I’ve only put Shure and similar brands in shells for friends. By the way I am a singer and acoustic guitar player and I will definitely be looking for lighter tone iem's with moderate bass. Does anyone have any experience which lineup would be good for bassists and drummers? This 4 way (from musmecca) seems interesting to me. This is definitely my next investment, as soon as the gigs start in the next century


This 4 way is orignally from @piotrus-g 
It is not for the faint of heart.

It's an advanced build


----------



## MISHKA2020

Sorry mr @piotrus-g , my mistake! However, i love challenges! I'll let you know when it's over.


----------



## JEHL

Also i wonder if anyone has compiled a DD recommendation list, both for full range and dedicated woofers.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

JEHL said:


> Also i wonder if anyone has compiled a DD recommendation list, both for full range and dedicated woofers.


I want to create a Harman target with a single DD

But now it seems a distant dream


----------



## JEHL

dhruvmeena96 said:


> I want to create a Harman target with a single DD
> 
> But now it seems a distant dream


I wonder if most of the knowledge revolves around mainly Knowles drivers. So i guess me wanting to make a 3 way 1DD 2BA is probably gonna me much harder to find out the how to than a similar 3BA. Isn't it?

I sometimes wonder if someone has actually used a Knowles SR and compared to whatever DDs they may have since they are more or less intended to work as woofers apparently.

Speaking of tuning i kinda mentioned this before... Clairvoyance with about -2bB at 3kHz. And I think i was told that itll take a lot of trial and error to recreate the 300Hz bass shelf, which presumably is a job for the DD.

... Another idea is a 28mm home made EST driver with a GL20 like housing.


----------



## HenacanPodwell

ForceMajeure said:


> No this is not the reason why many brands didn't use rc lowpass.
> an Lpad is a voltage divider, depending on implementation you could achieve a more linear impedance behavior. if you want to start knowing what you are doing then you have no choice than build a jig to measure your impedance and play around with values to see the changes.
> 
> Regarding a zobel for a CI you could try values 15uf and 27ohm, but it doesn't ensure you won't have the same behavior. again, the impedance behavior you have depends on the overall response of your complete config not parts of them.


Thank you! I should try to get an impedance tool.


----------



## Kulgrinda

MISHKA2020 said:


> Thank you. I read that. I will definitely do it again because I am weak in the field of electronics. Here I came up with a little trick for “us” who don’t have 711 and similar testing devices, so the only option is our own ears! That way I will test my TripleFi 10's and color and positions of dumpers.
> 
> Procedure:
> Fill the Impression Kit into a 5ml syringe. Make sure there is no air in between! When dry, remove and cut as two small rolls. Shape the edge that goes into the ear. Drill the rollers depending on the required number of holes and the thickness of the tube you use on the drivers (two tubes 3OD for my setup). I hope you find it useful. Good luck


This is how I do it. I do not solely rely on measurements because they of course do not show full story. So when attempting new "recipes" I always build earphones I can listen to - with fully sealed shell. That way I get also to listen to what I've created. I also use trimmed foam eartip to minimize the effect and have constant results when testing with this rig. I measured multiple earphones and now can compare them with the new creations.

Right now I'm trying to mate HODVTEC and GQ (original GQ has way too lean bass for my preference), but it proves to be difficult because HODVTEC is more sensitive and powerful, so sound is kind of dark. Right now I'm in the last steps, yesterday evening I got something I can enjoy. 

Also I'm trying CI + SR. Of course top end is lacking, but SR has a very nicely articulated midrange. And CI is much more responsive to filters than HODVTEC, probably because it is a single driver. I managed to get a very clean sounding pair of IEMs with some decent CI subbass, but as mentioned above - top end is missing, sound is not very "airy" and wide. Could try to increase SR tube length as well, now it is 12 mm.


----------



## gregeagle

@dhruvmeena96
@eunice
@Shilohsjustice 
And all you other pros..... which recipe would you suggest for a mastering ciem with good detail in low/high mids and good Triebleextension with also low impedance(easy to drive)??? Bass should be there but is not of the essence!
so which one....

Dhruve‘s recipe with ed30761+2389D and U-Pad
MASM pro
Finale 2 
Finale 3
go.......


----------



## musmecca

dhruvmeena96 said:


> This 4 way is orignally from @piotrus-g
> It is not for the faint of heart.
> 
> It's an advanced build


Yes, it is Piotrus-g's build and it is still my favorite! It wasn't easy, but something about those back to back ci's makes this thing shine with every player I put with them.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

gregeagle said:


> @dhruvmeena96
> @eunice
> @Shilohsjustice
> And all you other pros..... which recipe would you suggest for a mastering ciem with good detail in low/high mids and good Triebleextension with also low impedance(easy to drive)??? Bass should be there but is not of the essence!
> ...


mastering ciem
diffuse field, harman Tuning, Free Feild or @toranku curve

those above recipe are old and dont follow any graphs which may be required for mastering purpose


----------



## gregeagle

dhruvmeena96 said:


> mastering ciem
> diffuse field, harman Tuning, Free Feild or @toranku curve
> 
> those above recipe are old and dont follow any graphs which may be required for mastering purpose


But which one would be the closest in your opinion?


----------



## mattmatt

gregeagle said:


> But which one would be the closest in your opinion?


Single 2389 I think is best DF. Also ED29689.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

gregeagle said:


> But which one would be the closest in your opinion?


So here is a kicker for you

Sonion 2389D internal series x 2 parallel + 100ohms resistor + custom zobel if you need one

Order is 
Drivers - resistor - zobel

The inductance after resistance would be 8.58308604mH

Zobel is

0.5113106365000213 uF
129.5625 ohms

Try to keep it near value


2 tubes
2mm ID
8mm lenght
Green damper at end for both


Here is diffuse feild with top end spec and distortion 
I mean it might kill planar

As you have divided the volt and ampere by 1/2

1/2 volt and 1/2 ampere per driver or true 1/4 power split.

All the drivers will play 1/4 of its loudness and will combine up to make the SPL.. this will reduce distortion by huge margin

You can experiment to red damper if you want for more smooth playback


----------



## mattmatt

dhruvmeena96 said:


> So here is a kicker for you
> 
> Sonion 2389D internal series x 2 parallel + 100ohms resistor + custom zobel if you need one
> 
> ...


Two 2389D?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

mattmatt said:


> Two 2389D?


Yes
For those who don't know
2389D is dual 2389

So
Quad driver


----------



## gregeagle

F..... Christ 😳😳😳😳😳
This sounds Crazy!!!!!!!!!!!
I will give it a go!!! Have to Order those Double D‘s!!!!!
Thanks @dhruvmeena96


----------



## mattmatt

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Yes
> For those who don't know
> 2389D is dual 2389
> 
> ...


I know. But why?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

mattmatt said:


> I know. But why?


ER4 sound but reduced distortion

ER4 2D like bass is because its tuning and distortion characteristics, it's a single driver plus it has to go through Doppler and IMD. So having 3 more driver to assist it, may drop distortion so its bass could be clearly heard.

And since it's diffuse feild, it will be clear and clean as hell according to what he wants


----------



## JEHL (Nov 20, 2020)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> ER4 sound but reduced distortion
> 
> ER4 2D like bass is because its tuning and distortion characteristics, it's a single driver plus it has to go through Doppler and IMD. So having 3 more driver to assist it, may drop distortion so its bass could be clearly heard.
> 
> And since it's diffuse feild, it will be clear and clean as hell according to what he wants


I wonder, how hard is to recreate the ER2XR signature with BAs?

Edit: Which I think it's essentially an ER4 with a +5dB low shelf from about 400Hz or so?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

JEHL said:


> I wonder, how hard is to recreate the ER2XR signature with BAs?
> 
> Edit: Which I think it's essentially an ER4 with a +5dB low shelf from about 400Hz or so?


ER2XR

Add a extra BK heavily damped with dampers

Add zobel

Add resistor to tune on IEC711

And if you are recreating 100ohms ER4S

Use high impedance BK


----------



## eunice

gregeagle said:


> @dhruvmeena96
> @eunice
> @Shilohsjustice
> And all you other pros..... which recipe would you suggest for a mastering ciem with good detail in low/high mids and good Triebleextension with also low impedance(easy to drive)??? Bass should be there but is not of the essence!
> ...



I did not build 1, so don’t know about that.
I would suggest finale 2 with a slight EQ to flatten the bass. If EQ is no Option, go for Finale 3, but it is an advanced build. 
A few links:


Masm 3 pro https://crcit.net/c/4c8ad023

BS6 + Zobel https://crcit.net/c/49f54ed9

Finale 2 Reference CIEM https://crcit.net/c/7d75c8a5

Finale 3 CIEM https://crcit.net/c/bd30416c

Comparison MASM with resonator vs BS6 (and others): https://www.head-fi.org/threads/home-made-iems.430688/page-603#post-14961816

Comparison Finale 2 Reference, Finale 3, BS6: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/home-made-iems.430688/page-627#post-15023250


----------



## ElixBerd

Hello, guys! If anyone's willing to share his own wisdom and know-how, I'm wondering how do you make layer-y almost 3D-like textures when making acrylic shells/faceplates? Like when you pour a shampoo in your hand, that kind.


----------



## Bassiklee

You mean like these??   The three that are not yellow are Kirinite.  The yellow one,  I bought from eBay.  Do a search for knife scales,  you'll find all kinds of cool swirled acrylic stuff.  I've tried making my own,  so far with no success.


----------



## ElixBerd

Yeah, I mean something like this. So it's not possible to do this at home?


----------



## mattmatt

ElixBerd said:


> Hello, guys! If anyone's willing to share his own wisdom and know-how, I'm wondering how do you make layer-y almost 3D-like textures when making acrylic shells/faceplates? Like when you pour a shampoo in your hand, that kind.



Something like these?


----------



## Giru

ElixBerd said:


> Yeah, I mean something like this. So it's not possible to do this at home?


This can be done. You'll need to first make the shells and then create a slot (about 5mm or more) deep in the faceplate region.
Getting the layer design is pretty straightforward (glitter paint + self cure epoxy). Pour it into the slot you've created and let it set. Make sure to leave an mm or two for another layer of clear epoxy from the top. Let it set. Sand and polish.
Hope this helps


----------



## gregeagle

dhruvmeena96 said:


> So here is a kicker for you
> 
> Sonion 2389D internal series x 2 parallel + 100ohms resistor + custom zobel if you need one
> 
> ...


Would that be the correct way to go???
Do you know impedance?? Would be hard to drive ?!


----------



## dhruvmeena96

gregeagle said:


> Would that be the correct way to go???
> Do you know impedance?? Would be hard to drive ?!


The wiring diagram always get over my brain
Wait

I will draw it for you in some time(tommorow max)

Slightly busy with some work


----------



## dhruvmeena96

dhruvmeena96 said:


> The wiring diagram always get over my brain
> Wait
> 
> I will draw it for you in some time(tommorow max)
> ...


Just make 2389 in parallel and then put the 2389D in series

This wiring never goes wrong


----------



## ElixBerd

Giru said:


> This can be done. You'll need to first make the shells and then create a slot (about 5mm or more) deep in the faceplate region.
> Getting the layer design is pretty straightforward (glitter paint + self cure epoxy). Pour it into the slot you've created and let it set. Make sure to leave an mm or two for another layer of clear epoxy from the top. Let it set. Sand and polish.
> Hope this helps


I'll give it a go! Thanks a lot!


----------



## musmecca

Bassiklee said:


> You mean like these??   The three that are not yellow are Kirinite.  The yellow one,  I bought from eBay.  Do a search for knife scales,  you'll find all kinds of cool swirled acrylic stuff.  I've tried making my own,  so far with no success.


Quick question...I assume you purchased thicker blanks and worked them to thickness? I ask is because all I see is knife blanks, pen blanks, etc and all have to be either sanded or cut to thickness. Do you band saw, sand, or do you have another method? Any tips appreciated as I have thicker blanks and heave not worked thm yet...


----------



## Bassiklee

The yellow ones were 1/4" thick. I attach them to the monitors,  then grind them down on a belt sander.  The Kirinite I buy in 1/8" thick sheets,  and cut it down into blanks on a bandsaw.


----------



## musmecca

Bassiklee said:


> The yellow ones were 1/4" thick. I attach them to the monitors,  then grind them down on a belt sander.  The Kirinite I buy in 1/8" thick sheets,  and cut it down into blanks on a bandsaw.


I suspected as much. Do you then use one of the buffing compounds or do you  go the Lac3 route to get a finished product...or a combination of both?


----------



## Bassiklee

Lak,  but I don't use Dreve.  It yellows too much for my liking.  I've been having good luck with Pro3dure,  and I'm about to try some Surehold.  The last batch that went out were sprayed.  I stole that idea from Jerry Harvey.


----------



## mattmatt

Bassiklee said:


> Lak,  but I don't use Dreve.  It yellows too much for my liking.  I've been having good luck with Pro3dure,  and I'm about to try some Surehold.  The last batch that went out were sprayed.  I stole that idea from Jerry Harvey.


Did you try the ratio with the thinner or pure lacquer?

Lemme know how Surehold goes. Been eyeing on them.


----------



## Bassiklee

Haven't thinned any of them.  Will do,  re: Surehold


----------



## Bassiklee

That's not one of mine,  but it's a good example of what a sprayed lak shell looks like.  It's a different finish from what a brushed or dipped finish is.


----------



## gregeagle

Just Did a 2 driver Universal and Wanted to share results!! Didnt know that a 2 way could sound that smooth!!! On some Songs thou a bit sibilant!?🤪there is a notch a 3,4khz!

Recipe 
22955 with 10ohm series, 14mm 2ID, red damper close to spout 
29689 3,6uf in Series, Zobel 10ohm/20uf, 8mm 2ID White damper end of tube 

Thanks for the Zobel as described by @dhruvmeena96 

Have a Nice sunday!!


----------



## mattmatt

Bassiklee said:


> That's not one of mine,  but it's a good example of what a sprayed lak shell looks like.  It's a different finish from what a brushed or dipped finish is.


Hmmm weird. Here's mine. Smoother finish than brushing.


----------



## musmecca

mattmatt said:


> Hmmm weird. Here's mine. Smoother finish than brushing.


The difference in the two is the "orange peel" in bassiklee's pic (not his finish), while yours cured glass smooth. Usually this is attributed to surface prep and viscosity of the lac. If the surface isn't lightly sanded (actually 0000 steel wool does the trick)  and wiped (tack cloth is fine) it can bead up on the surface instead of flowing. The sprayer improperly set (nozzle clogged, not enough back pressure, or lack not thinned out) will do the same thing. Interesting you said you didn't thin your lac....it usually helps with a smooth sheen. Also, never spay on a humid day or too cold of a day!


----------



## Bassiklee

I'm in north Florida.  There's no such thing as a not humid day here.  I'm still playing with spraying,  but that pic is from a larger manufacturer than me.  That,  and I was told by another member here that his 64s have that same exact finish.


----------



## Bassiklee

I do sand the surface.  No steel wool. I use those scotch bright wheels,  flap discs,  etc.  

If one were to thin lak,  what would one use?  It's not actually lacquer,  they just call it that.  

As far as humidity,  given that this stuff doesn't dry,  it cures,  is that part of the equation?


----------



## musmecca

Bassiklee said:


> I do sand the surface.  No steel wool. I use those scotch bright wheels,  flap discs,  etc.
> 
> If one were to thin lak,  what would one use?  It's not actually lacquer,  they just call it that.
> 
> As far as humidity,  given that this stuff doesn't dry,  it cures,  is that part of the equation?


True laquer can be thinned with denatured alcohol....since this stuff is light cured, acetone is the dreve go-to as they even call it "finishing liquid"! And humidity is absolutely part of the equation. As a finish is sprayed, it will trap air under the surface as it cures.....too much humidity in the air and opaque films form and the surface can cure unevenly...again "orange peel". If you have to spray in a humid environment, several lighter coats are the only way.


----------



## Bassiklee

Dreve finishing liquid is for use with their soft vinyl mouth guards. It's not sold for,  or recommended for use as a thinner.  It's also mostly eucalyptus oil.


----------



## mattmatt

musmecca said:


> True laquer can be thinned with denatured alcohol....since this stuff is light cured, acetone is the dreve go-to as they even call it "finishing liquid"! And humidity is absolutely part of the equation. As a finish is sprayed, it will trap air under the surface as it cures.....too much humidity in the air and opaque films form and the surface can cure unevenly...again "orange peel". If you have to spray in a humid environment, several lighter coats are the only way.


This shouldn't have orange peel since it doesn't dry out with air. It will still have time to flow and even out once it hit the IEM. 

I have thinned and un-thinned sets. Both are great. I actually spray at really really low pressure to avoid over spray and material waste. I think you guys are kind of overthinking this. 

This opaque film diffuses over time while you air dry the lak before jumping to light cure.


----------



## mattmatt

Lak is also good to go with spraying out of the box.


----------



## ddfcoold (Dec 1, 2020)

hchanrn said:


> knowles gv-32830 quad driver with shure se 535 diy shell, knowles green filter
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How does removing the seals affect the sound?


----------



## Bassiklee

Adds some level to the HODVTEC


----------



## musmecca

Just recently had a few shells get very brittle and literally fall apart. Using Dreve clear, but this time added a little mica powder and some of the resin dye available from resin obsessions. I made sure I thoroughly mixed, waited for the air to come out, then poured. I increased cure time up to 4:30 and had a great shell...strong with about 2mm wall thickness. After a few weeks, both sides just literally fell apart.....thoughts guys?


----------



## Bassiklee

Maybe Overcured to the point where they got brittle??


----------



## dhruvmeena96

musmecca said:


> Just recently had a few shells get very brittle and literally fall apart. Using Dreve clear, but this time added a little mica powder and some of the resin dye available from resin obsessions. I made sure I thoroughly mixed, waited for the air to come out, then poured. I increased cure time up to 4:30 and had a great shell...strong with about 2mm wall thickness. After a few weeks, both sides just literally fell apart.....thoughts guys?


Ohhhhh
That hurts a lot mate


----------



## musmecca

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Ohhhhh
> That hurts a lot mate


And it should hurt you...it was your finale 3 build! Arghhh...!


----------



## Wgibson

Howdy, I've been lurking and have a few questions that I couldn't answer by searching (here, or google.)

Background: mechanical engineer, mid 30's, decent grasp on electrical, got really into cheap chifi iems during the pandemic, then started in on basic mods (mmcx conversions) and in the process gathering tools/components, and working on my soldering skills. So now I have a full fledged aliexpress addiction, and I'm sitting here with some drivers and shells in the mail for diy iem projects.

Not asking for anyone to hold my hand, but pointing me in the right direction on the electrical side especially is greatly appreciated. I think I have, or can obtain, a decent handle on the physical/acoustic damping. But I am also smart enough to know what I don't know, about all the other aspects of this type of project.

 Anyway, now for the electrical questions, let's say all are general/hypothetical for now.

1) DIY hybrid iem, 1DD and 1BA in parallel, I assume you can use a low pass inductor on the DD without negative consequence to the BA, true or false? Or do I need an RC low pass on the DD instead? I am generally familiar with the BA inductance and saturation, at least enough to know there are issues and trying to low pass a BA with an inductor is a no-no.

2) Using a single capacitor high pass filter on 2 BAs in parallel, any pitfalls?

3) What is everyone using for crossover design? Downloaded Xsim but can't find any of the common BA driver files (FRD / ZMA files)

4) Not strictly electrical, but has anyone used a knowles SR-32453 for super high frequencies? The graph looks good over 10k, but what really struck me was the fairly stable impedance in that area, not a super sharp increase like you see with most other BAs. At face value it looks way better than say a 30095, which is a very common solution...

5) OK so I lied about these being only electrical questions. Thoughts on a 4x RAF or RAB in series with 2 of the dampers closed, 2 open? Would your thoughts change if there was a dip switch with the option to also put them in 2x2 series/parallel configuration?

6) I have a dayton imm6 set up and can make some reasonable looking graphs for iem comparisons, but I know I still have a lot of work to do on measurements.

7) Yes I know it seems like I'm getting in way over my head. I spent some "real money" on a pair of 10mm planar drivers, so between tweaking those and trying to fix some things I don't like about a few cheaper chifi hybrids, I promise I'll take it slow and do some work on the phsyical/acoustic tuning side. I'm also fine with a guess and check method for more complex multi driver stuff, anything to keep me occupied. Who knows, I might get lucky.

Thanks in advance for any input, I have pretty thick skin so as long as there is a shred of helpful information, just let me know what you really think.


----------



## mattmatt

For share


----------



## musmecca

mattmatt said:


> For share


Quite nice! How did you add the gold flake?


----------



## mattmatt

musmecca said:


> Quite nice! How did you add the gold flake?


I added them in the mold


----------



## musmecca

mattmatt said:


> I added them in the mold


So you put the flake in the mold, THEN poured the red?


----------



## mattmatt

musmecca said:


> So you put the flake in the mold, THEN poured the red?


Yep!


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Wgibson said:


> Howdy, I've been lurking and have a few questions that I couldn't answer by searching (here, or google.)
> 
> Background: mechanical engineer, mid 30's, decent grasp on electrical, got really into cheap chifi iems during the pandemic, then started in on basic mods (mmcx conversions) and in the process gathering tools/components, and working on my soldering skills. So now I have a full fledged aliexpress addiction, and I'm sitting here with some drivers and shells in the mail for diy iem projects.
> 
> ...


Answer 
1) inductor is not possible for new project as SMD inductor have high dcr and normal inductor are quite big.

2) no pitfall, just measure if it's causing dip and then reverse the phase( wiring of the driver causing the dip... Ie the driver with cap)

3)why would xsim have the file for BA parameters?

4)SR is fullrange dynamic replacement driver and is not a tweeter. Actually it's very weak in tweeter. For iem, tweeter is above 5kHz when we talk tweet ability...unlike speakers.

SR is nice mids to uppermids(pinna), but weak treble overall

5)series only increases circuit inductance on driver part, making it smooth sounding. Power distribution is still 1/4 per driver.
Zobel fix impedance rise what amplifier sees otherwise it's super smooth

Now about the cloth damper on back vent, you will average between RAB32033 and RAB32257 on bass

About series parallel, it sounds like single driver but now you are able to hear the difference from single driver on technical front. As driver impedance remains same and driver is on 1/2 V 1/2A pure 1/4 power split.

Sound is not changed, impedance behaviour too.


You can have switch but when doing series parallel and Series only switch.

You might need two pcb

As series will be 

Series wiring on pcb + zobel


And for series parallel would be

Series parallel + zobel + resistor( to match upto series resistance value)


Because once you switch, the loudness of series parallel might shock your eardrum


6) pls get 711 from AliExpress. Dayton sucks bad

7) planar..... @Xymordos will help


----------



## Wgibson (Dec 3, 2020)

@dhruvmeena96 thank you for the thorough response, some of it will take me time to process, but I think covers everything.

Just a few clarifications:

3) crossovers - so is there any software that can simulate, or you just manually calculate based on impedance at the frequency you want to cross at? Then how would you check the total impedance of multiple drivers? My first thought was to build an excel sheet and learn as I create it, but I was hoping something already existed.

4) Yes the SR6438 I agree does not look good for highs, but the SR32453 still shows more than100db up to 17k or so. Does this not work in reality?

I need to learn about the Zobel circuits but there is plenty of info available there.

4 driver 2x2 series/parallel I got a functional result with 3 switches, I will have to see if zobel still works with that.

None of the aliexpress 711 setups have a clear enough description to know what I am actually buying :/

Edit: on a fundamental level, I don't see why fully capable loudspeaker design software like Xsim couldn't just be applied "wrong enough" to use it with BA and smaller DD drivers, if the appropriate driver files were created. You should be able to get a good electrical simulation, and a very rough starting point for frequency response, before considering any acoustic damping.


----------



## Wgibson

Unfortunately, I reviewed the zobel circuit theory and my conclusion is that I should consider cracking open all my single DD iems and adding a zobel if there is room...


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Wgibson said:


> @dhruvmeena96 thank you for the thorough response, some of it will take me time to process, but I think covers everything.
> 
> Just a few clarifications:
> 
> ...


3) there are many software, but i feel they are useless kind of, because after a while, you are used to crossover on BA so much after some experience, that you can blindly select cap for specific driver and it comes out correct. why do i say that is because impedance issue of BA makes it very hard to set up on software. and merging them with cross doesnt settle all issue related to electric transfer function on impedance and electrical phase. if you  zobel every driver and then use software, then its a different story but you then need Le or Inductance value of the BA voice coil. and using softwares first adds up to difficulty first. i would say, understand build first, some iem impedance and issues related to BA. then build some, slowly, then once you confident with your crossover , to make things more complex and advanced, use software

but then thats me, everybody learn things differently

4) Treble amount is relative to its bass and mids
second, see the Brochure datasheet instead of pro engineer for 711 graph, and see the damped response one
plus in tube, you have tube resonance and cancellation node points with acoustic gain till specific length and then acoustic losses

so it doesnt come out as 100dB always. plus having a wbfk crossed very high(like  100nF) always helps gain some treble back in SR

SR is generally uppermid pinna focused, mildly warm, low distortion BA. Its not for tweet application

and when seeing driver FR, dont see its dB at specific frequency but the frequency graph as whole


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Wgibson said:


> Unfortunately, I reviewed the zobel circuit theory and my conclusion is that I should consider cracking open all my single DD iems and adding a zobel if there is room...


DD is generally flat in impedance for iem
sad


----------



## Zitrust

Need some help mate I have a plan to custom my own iem using Knowles ED-33357+ CI22955

But I don't know where to find ED-33357 seller 

Thanks


----------



## piotrus-g

Zitrust said:


> Need some help mate I have a plan to custom my own iem using Knowles ED-33357+ CI22955
> 
> But I don't know where to find ED-33357 seller
> 
> Thanks


The MOQ on this driver is 100pcs, you won't be able to buy it otherwise.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Dec 6, 2020)

ED33357 is improved ED29689 in sound department I feel. Pinna is at 3kHz instead of 2kHz which makes it better for ear gain





piotrus-g said:


> The MOQ on this driver is 100pcs, you won't be able to buy it otherwise.


@piotrus-g sensei is back
Now gib us some good open source build teacher/sensei(whoever get anime meme)

Meanwhile I am trying FED26792 single driver. The MOQ issue always gets me down.

Nobody builds iem here(i mean india not the group) for fun, so can't even group buy

And shipping from india is very much done for
For now(covid)


----------



## dhruvmeena96

i have edited the post above
i just skipped something and was writing in speech format

here meant india and not the homemade iem group(i was re reading the posts and i felt that the message can have wrong interpretation)


----------



## gregeagle

Did a nice 4-way and wanted to share for those of interest!
I think (my ears.... I do not have a measuring system) it sounds pretty balanced with a good load of bass! the friend I made it for is quite happy with it calling it HIFI?!  What you guys thinks about it?? Somebody wants to redo it and measure it??

Sonion 33AJ007 10ohm series, 2ID 16mm, red damper
Knowles 29689 3,3uf Series, Zobel 10ohm/20uf
RAF fullrange
1 tube shared for 29689/RAF 10mm 2ID, green damper


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Dec 6, 2020)

gregeagle said:


> Did a nice 4-way and wanted to share for those of interest!
> I think (my ears.... I do not have a measuring system) it sounds pretty balanced with a good load of bass! the friend I made it for is quite happy with it calling it HIFI?!  What you guys thinks about it?? Somebody wants to redo it and measure it??
> 
> Sonion 33AJ007 10ohm series, 2ID 16mm, red damper
> ...


Where do you put zobel
Zobel is always after driver

Driver zobel crossover

And where is the RAF zobel mate

Easiest driver to zobel out

Just asking so if we can improve it together


----------



## gregeagle

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Where do you put zobel
> Zobel is always after driver
> 
> Driver zobel crossover
> ...


Zobel for 29689 is parallel to drivers
didnt do zobel for RAF....to my shame.... what would do for RAF?


----------



## gregeagle

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Where do you put zobel
> Zobel is always after driver
> 
> Driver zobel crossover
> ...


Zobel is parallel to drivers....didnt do zobel for RAF....my bad .... what would you use....41Ohm/4,6uF???


----------



## piotrus-g

dhruvmeena96 said:


> ED33357 is improved ED29689 in sound department I feel. Pinna is at 3kHz instead of 2kHz which makes it better for ear gain
> @piotrus-g sensei is back
> Now gib us some good open source build teacher/sensei(whoever get anime meme)
> 
> ...


Well since I was involved in ED-33357 development I'll take it as a compliment 

I was thinking about doing another Open Source build for you guys, but lately I have not enough time to get to it


----------



## dhruvmeena96

gregeagle said:


> Zobel is parallel to drivers....didnt do zobel for RAF....my bad .... what would you use....41Ohm/4,6uF???


Yes



piotrus-g said:


> Well since I was involved in ED-33357 development I'll take it as a compliment
> 
> I was thinking about doing another Open Source build for you guys, but lately I have not enough time to get to it


Ohh yaas... All Kudos to you
This driver makes life easier to hit pinna region. Plus, I feel it's more effortless.

I was able to source a pair somehow(dark sources hehehe) but now they don't have it and MOQ issue persist.


----------



## musmecca

piotrus-g said:


> Well since I was involved in ED-33357 development I'll take it as a compliment
> 
> I was thinking about doing another Open Source build for you guys, but lately I have not enough time to get to it


Oh, you really need to throw us another bone! Your builds are awesome! Something with a Knowles SR, or sonion 38 build. Love your 2 CI+twfk build., but then again,  I am a basshog!


----------



## dhruvmeena96

musmecca said:


> Oh, you really need to throw us another bone! Your builds are awesome! Something with a Knowles SR, or sonion 38 build. Love your 2 CI+twfk build., but then again,  I am a basshog!


till the time you wait for @piotrus-g build

here is something to satisfy your basshead desires

Sonion 38D1XJ series internally yellow damper + 20ohm resistor(if its not 38D1 and is 38AJ, then damp it with double yellow)
tube, as long as you can possibly fit...... and yes, i am serious
long tube act as lowpass


Knowles SR+ 10ohm
10mm lenght, 2mm ID
white damper, or damper as per taste
6mm away from BA spout


----------



## piotrus-g

musmecca said:


> Oh, you really need to throw us another bone! Your builds are awesome! Something with a Knowles SR, or sonion 38 build. Love your 2 CI+twfk build., but then again,  I am a basshog!


Thanks man. I appreciate it. 

Well the problem with SR is that this part (whole series actually) is EOL meaning that once the current supply is gone it's not coming back.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

piotrus-g said:


> Thanks man. I appreciate it.
> 
> Well the problem with SR is that this part (whole series actually) is EOL meaning that once the current supply is gone it's not coming back.


What when how.........
That's bad

SR is one of the best DD replacement driver

Knowles can't do that

Sad


----------



## musmecca

dhruvmeena96 said:


> What when how.........
> That's bad
> 
> SR is one of the best DD replacement driver
> ...


I have a couple of builds with the SR...I am actually surprised there are not more builds out there with them as they have a unique sound. Thank goodness I have a stash of them!


----------



## musmecca

piotrus-g said:


> Thanks man. I appreciate it.
> 
> Well the problem with SR is that this part (whole series actually) is EOL meaning that once the current supply is gone it's not coming back.


I will gratefully build whatever you throw out as it will be good!


----------



## piotrus-g

dhruvmeena96 said:


> What when how.........
> That's bad
> 
> SR is one of the best DD replacement driver
> ...


Yeah man, you don't have to tell me that. 
There are number of reasons they are pulling it out and given what I've been told I can totally understand why. 
SR is great full range and it's definitely a lose to the audio world, then again it was _never _popular.


----------



## Wgibson

What's the preferred SR? 6438 and 31843 look almost the same on paper, slightly different peaks. 32453 looks like it has better top end.

31843 is already getting hard to find.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

piotrus-g said:


> Yeah man, you don't have to tell me that.
> There are number of reasons they are pulling it out and given what I've been told I can totally understand why.
> SR is great full range and it's definitely a lose to the audio world, then again it was _never _popular.


the moment you say _never _in italic. 
that would have hurted the SR feeling

well SR was famous initially, but then multi mega driver count war started and big old driver doesnt make sense in the modern world

but when i was measuring distortion compared to RAB(both have kinda same response)
SR was better on power and distortion handling


----------



## Wgibson

A few random questions, if you'll all indulge me, because I have not found a good crossover or IEM circuit thread on how to actually execute designs, I think this is the best place.

1) Hypothetical for simplicity - single BA 40 ohms impedance at 1k hz, high pass crossover with let's say a 4.7uf cap. If you add a series resistor in front, let's say 10 ohms, does this affect the crossover frequency you get with that cap value?

2) Zobel for 4 identical BAs in 2x2 series/parallel, has the same resistor and capacitor values as zobel for a single one of those drivers, true/false?

3) Hypothetically, if someone ordered assortments of 0805 surface mount components (resistors, and ceramic capacitors) was that a good idea, or should that person stop shopping on amazon after having a few beers?

4) If you want to low pass something with an RC circuit, say its a lower impedance DD in parallel with a higher impedance BA, how do you lay out the circuit to equalize the volume between drivers? Series resistor on the DD only, similar question to (1) does that series resistor affect your crossover frequency? Or same question different way, do you consider that series resistor when you calculate the low pass RC circuit?


----------



## piotrus-g (Dec 8, 2020)

Wgibson said:


> What's the preferred SR? 6438 and 31843 look almost the same on paper, slightly different peaks. 32453 looks like it has better top end.
> 
> 31843 is already getting hard to find.


32453 is vented version of 31843 and both of those are better compared to 6438.
To my knowledge there's around 5kpcs of 31843 in supply.


dhruvmeena96 said:


> the moment you say _never _in italic.
> that would have hurted the SR feeling
> 
> well SR was famous initially, but then multi mega driver count war started and big old driver doesnt make sense in the modern world
> ...


LOL hahaha
Yes, I had some early SR IEMs they sounded ok, especially back at the time when single BA was limited by so many factors. But they simply never gained much attention.

SR has the biggest headroom of any single full range, it outperforms ED, RAB etc it offers headroom of BK with response similar to RAB. It really is a tragedy to see it go.


----------



## Davezvg

Hello, could anyone help me to configure my IEC 711 with my computer? The seller sent me some videos for the configuration but since everything is in Chinese its a little bit hard to configure it.


----------



## ddfcoold (Dec 9, 2020)

hchanrn said:


> knowles gv-32830 quad driver with shure se 535 diy shell, knowles green filter
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Can someone please share where can I read about filters for knowles ba? A green one is mentioned in the post and I see a red and a white ones in my knowles now, but somehow can't find the info


----------



## Bassiklee

Knowles has the info on their page.  Quick&dirty:


----------



## ddfcoold

Bassiklee said:


> Knowles has the info on their page. Quick&dirty:



Can you please share the link, I can't find it)


----------



## Bassiklee

That’s just a pic from my phone. I don’t recall where I got it. It has as much info as you’re going to find elsewhere though


----------



## Bassiklee

https://www.knowles.com/docs/default-source/default-document-library/tb-14.pdf?sfvrsn=4aa075b1_2


----------



## ddfcoold

Bassiklee said:


> https://www.knowles.com/docs/default-source/default-document-library/tb-14.pdf?sfvrsn=4aa075b1_2


Thanks a lot!


----------



## Bassiklee

You’re welcome. There’s more out there. Lots in here too, especially about stacking dampers


----------



## mattmatt

Bassiklee said:


> You’re welcome. There’s more out there. Lots in here too, especially about stacking dampers


Yes! Efficiency of is affected by position.


----------



## Wgibson

Quick zobel questions:

I see conflicting info from different sources, for the resistor should I consider 1.25x DC resistance , or 1.25x impedance at some relevant frequency? I guess its only a concern if you have a high pass filter on it, because the impedance is similar to DCR for most BAs at say 500 or 1000hz.

Better to round up than round down on the resistor if you have limited values or don't want to use multiple resistors?

The formula asks for inductance of driver, 
just measure it with LCR meter, or is it some how more complicated?

Going to work on a single driver knowles SR31843 first, I'll post my results.


----------



## gregeagle

hey guys....

did anybody could manage to rebuild the BS6 with knowles DTEC???? which DTEC (30008, 31116,31985)  would come close to the DTEC from Bellsing? since all?? Knowles DTEC´s are readily wired in series.... BS6 DTEC is wired parallel??

buy the way i friggin love my new black Dragonfly!!!!! 

cheers Greg


----------



## Wgibson

Went with 39ohm resistor and 4.7uf cap 10% tolerance, picked the smallest ones. My 10yr old $20 lcr meter is acting up so don't have exact value of the cap, but they are similar to each other.

Sr31843 zobel, not the best looking, but it works.

Now to mess with the acoustic tubing and dayton imm6. Will test a few things open back just to get a feel for the mid/upper frequencies, try to reduce peaks. The low end probably is what it is.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Wgibson said:


> Quick zobel questions:
> 
> I see conflicting info from different sources, for the resistor should I consider 1.25x DC resistance , or 1.25x impedance at some relevant frequency? I guess its only a concern if you have a high pass filter on it, because the impedance is similar to DCR for most BAs at say 500 or 1000hz.
> 
> ...


we have to find the structure of impedance and inductance behaviour changes on BA for some reason


----------



## Wgibson

So I bought 4 sr31843 drivers, messing with the first pair I had a noticeable mismatch in freq response.

Wired up the other pair today with the same zobel circuit, measured all 4 and I had one oddball. Turns out, that is the one I used a lighter to heat shrink directly to it. After that, I was slipping the piece of tube on and off to measure various drivers.

Anyway, apparently you can tune these with heat (just hot enough to be a little uncomfortable to hold with your fingers.) It reduces the lows and also changed the peaks in the pinna gain area. Heres 3 graphs, ended up with two pretty well matched pairs by heating and matching the -1 and -2, the -3 and -4 are as they came (no heat) and the last graph is the same driver before and after heating it with a lighter.

I wouldn't recommend it, but I was already there with one of the drivers and wanted a matched pair so... Thought it was interesting enough to post the results.

One day I promise to learn how to use the spoiler feature.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Wgibson said:


> So I bought 4 sr31843 drivers, messing with the first pair I had a noticeable mismatch in freq response.
> 
> Wired up the other pair today with the same zobel circuit, measured all 4 and I had one oddball. Turns out, that is the one I used a lighter to heat shrink directly to it. After that, I was slipping the piece of tube on and off to measure various drivers.
> 
> ...


zobel

6.76884606976uF
31.25 ohms

try this



plus dont heat the drivers, please dont
its not a good practice


----------



## Wgibson

dhruvmeena96 said:


> zobel
> 
> 6.76884606976uF
> 31.25 ohms
> ...



Agree, but I was already there, so it was either toss one or match it. The heated ones I'll save for later, maybe multi driver.

These are already wired, but I have some sr32453 on the way that have the same electrical specs, I will use your zobel values for those.


----------



## Wgibson

Got my 10mm planar drivers today and played around with one of them for a few hours in a cheap universal shell.

Useful variables were:

1) Micropore or masking tape on the back vent. This changes the curve 3k and below from dead flat, to having the dip around 2k. It also increases 10k and up. That alone gave me a pretty reasonable curve compared to open back, as they come. I can hit in between the mp and masking tape curves by using multiple layers of micropore.

2) Reducing volume in front of the driver with blue tack. I tried nothing, some reduction (-front volume or -fv) and minimal front volume, filled as much space as possible and made a basic horn shape to the nozzle. This shifted the 2.5k peak to 3.5k, then 4k, and also increased everything 5k and up. Again, I can iterate.

But those two things let me change the original curve into something that looks usable.

So, which of these curves would you want to try listening to first? Ignoring response below 100hz, I think that was a driver leak that can be rectified. No idea what the crazy volume above 10k will be like. This is with an imm6, so grain of salt, but still, nothing else I've ever graphed had much going on up there.




Not useful variables were: open or closed shell, especially with tape on the driver vent, it had zero effect. Open vent there were very minor changes.

Rear shell volume reduction using blue tack with open driver vent, no change.

Foam in the nozzle - killed the pinna peak too much, and didn't touch the 10k and up stuff.

Orifice in the nozzle - shifts pinna peak too far left and drops 5-8k volume too much. But might come back into play later.


----------



## Xymordos

Wgibson said:


> Got my 10mm planar drivers today and played around with one of them for a few hours in a cheap universal shell.
> 
> Useful variables were:
> 
> ...



Hmm my experience was that front volume (including tube diameter) affects the treble a lot. Open closed shell makes a huge difference too - I think closed shell gave me a 1khz dip? I couldn't seem to affect the 10khz peak at all - it was always there, doesn't get louder nor quieter. 

Do you mean that a smaller front volume actually shifts the peak up? How small was the volume to get the peak to 4k?


----------



## Wgibson

@Xymordos I think "closed shell" never 100% sealed for me, even though I used tack and tape, but was irrelevant because pretty sure I will go with tape on the driver vent, where I can confidently say the open/closed shell had zero effect.

Curves 2, 3, and 7 the only difference is volume in front of the driver. 10+ db increase for everything 5k up, I was very surprised it had that much effect. Filled as much as possible while still leaving a clear path to the nozzle, and not reducing nozzle diameter at all (smaller diameter in nozzle shifts peaks back left, and kills 5-8k.)

Pic of shells:


Spoiler


----------



## Xymordos

Wgibson said:


> @Xymordos I think "closed shell" never 100% sealed for me, even though I used tack and tape, but was irrelevant because pretty sure I will go with tape on the driver vent, where I can confidently say the open/closed shell had zero effect.
> 
> Curves 2, 3, and 7 the only difference is volume in front of the driver. 10+ db increase for everything 5k up, I was very surprised it had that much effect. Filled as much as possible while still leaving a clear path to the nozzle, and not reducing nozzle diameter at all (smaller diameter in nozzle shifts peaks back left, and kills 5-8k.)
> 
> ...



For final product you might need to leave a micro vent on the front, otherwise there might be pressure issues when putting them on. 

I've been trying to see how Tin Hifi tuned theirs to get a bump in the treble region. All my measurements shows a huge void between 2-6k...had to stick BAs to fill this region up. Their shells shows a very big front cavity and a very very large and short bore right to the ear. Are you able to test a similar config?


----------



## Wgibson

@Xymordos I was thinking about that, these may end up in crystal EDX shells, which already have a small front volume, and a damped front vent. Also a slightly larger bore than these universals, so not exactly sure what to expect. It would be great if I get lucky and the pinna peak gets broader, but that's probably wishful thinking.

I may try to repeat the front volume tests with a different driver, to see if it acts the same. I can pull the EDX driver and put in this same shell. Not at the top of my list, but it is on there now, so I'll let you know.


----------



## Wgibson

Guess I'm just stubborn, but I got pretty much a harmon target with stupid extension above 10k. The small 8k spike is my coupler resonance, so that 10k peak is real, at least as far as imm6 accuracy goes.

1/16" and 3/16" hole punches, some "nano tape" and a short piece of silicone tube with 1 layer of micropore tape on top (this is what helped spread the peak out from ~2.5k-5k.)

Check this out (yes I took it to 30k, why not)


Pic of rear chamber:


Spoiler






Spoiler



Going to put them in EDX shells, adjust that rear chamber thingy to fit inside, channel match, and start listening. Hopefully no surprises going to the EDX shells, if I can't work through it then I'll close up these $90 drivers in this pair of $1.75 shells and call it good.


----------



## Xymordos

Wait, what do you mean by the "hole punches"?  What are your configs used on the front volume and tube, and how does this sound, comparison to other IEMs? The graph looks quite good!


----------



## Wgibson

@Xymordos I made a disc out of nano tape (double stick gel type stuff) to attach the rear chamber to the driver. 1/16" hole in the center, and the whole disc is 3/16" round. I will use some B7000 (sparingly) to make sure it stays attached after I'm 100% sure about it.

EDX shells were a no go, too sensitive to changes and I was having trouble reeling it back in.

So I'll finalize the front volume fill with epoxy putty (and take pics.) I rolled my tack up into a ball, so I'll just use the same amount of epoxy, and the shape is pretty intuitive.

Also need to tweak the rear chamber to fit in these shells, but I think I can do it without messing up the curve.

Haven't listened yet, but should be a nice surprise  and the shell lid snaps on/off so I can keep tweaking if needed.

I will just ignore the front vent issue for now, nothing a hot needle can't solve later, but I'm worried the sub bass will drop off too much. Micropore tape if it does.


----------



## Xymordos

Thanks! That's interesting - so the driver is more affected by back volume then?


----------



## Wgibson

Well it is sensitive to everything, but my overall assessment is the pinna peak can be affected by both, left of that is rear volume, right of that is front volume.

It would be interesting to see someone try to tweak a tin P1 or something similar. I keep an eye on ebay, but don't have any planars.


----------



## Kulgrinda

Does anyone know where + and - for Sonion 2389 are? Also how to connect center tap - is it - or +?


----------



## piotrus-g

Kulgrinda said:


> Does anyone know where + and - for Sonion 2389 are? Also how to connect center tap - is it - or +?




( - ) ( ct ) ( + )


----------



## Kulgrinda

piotrus-g said:


> ( - ) ( ct ) ( + )


Thank you! Do I connect + or - to center tap for half coil setup? Or it does not matter?


----------



## piotrus-g

Kulgrinda said:


> Thank you! Do I connect + or - to center tap for half coil setup? Or it does not matter?


depends on your desired polarity. If you are in correct polarity with normal wiring then move - to CT for half coil in the same polarity


----------



## Wgibson

Ok, last planar update unless anyone has questions, I'm happy to elaborate.

Completely finished and listening now. Sound awesome so far, but hard to be objective when I've got probably 20+ hours into the project over the last few days. Will have to do some A/B listening after the novelty wears off.

Pic:


Spoiler







And graph:


Spoiler







Notes: 

The mismatch at 4-8k is due to front volume differences and/or slightly different shape of the front chamber. Drivers are not fully glues in, so I may mess with that more later. Maybe "burn in" because most of the troubleshooting was done with the left, so it has hundreds of sine sweeps on it, right only has a few. Used EP400 epoxy putty to fill in. Front volume from end of nozzle to driver surface is about 0.15ml (filled with table salt, then measured the salt in 1ml syringe) Pic of front chambers:


Spoiler







The low end is a NIGHTMARE to tune. The rear chamber is a drinking straw and clear plastic 1/4" disc, stuck to the driver with B7000. There may have been some magic involved to get that curve shape. It is VERY temperamental, and if you look at it funny it will completely change. Not at all practical, I will have to re-measure frequently to make sure it is behaving.

I abandoned the orifice on the back vent because of the big 10 and 15k peaks it created, I never listened to them but I imagine it would have just added hiss to everything. And once I worked out the rear chamber, the orifice didn't contribute anything else.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Wgibson said:


> Ok, last planar update unless anyone has questions, I'm happy to elaborate.
> 
> Completely finished and listening now. Sound awesome so far, but hard to be objective when I've got probably 20+ hours into the project over the last few days. Will have to do some A/B listening after the novelty wears off.
> 
> ...


Nice work bro...
But I would leak it more from front and add some sort of nylon cloth at nozzle to tone the hiss down
But then that's me
Nice graph you got out of pita(pain in the a**) planar.
But now you have given me some direction to tune and optimise it.


----------



## Wgibson

Filter cuts the pinna peak but didn't touch 10k and up, I will mess with it more eventually. The treble isn't bothering me so far. I think removing the rear filter should drop 10k and up though, could replace it with regular stainless nozzle mesh and see.

Side note, I see the "upgraded version" of the 10mm planar on chitty store is 2mm taller (5mm vs 3mm.) But the frequency response on that one looks weird.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Wgibson said:


> Filter cuts the pinna peak but didn't touch 10k and up, I will mess with it more eventually. The treble isn't bothering me so far. I think removing the rear filter should drop 10k and up though, could replace it with regular stainless nozzle mesh and see.
> 
> Side note, I see the "upgraded version" of the 10mm planar on chitty store is 2mm taller (5mm vs 3mm.) But the frequency response on that one looks weird.


there is also a 12mm (somewhere hidden) which looks like 10mm

also, i was thinking of Sonion Bone conduction driver for some reason for a pretty long period of time
it can vibrate the shell with a lot of power


----------



## Xymordos

Wgibson said:


> Filter cuts the pinna peak but didn't touch 10k and up, I will mess with it more eventually. The treble isn't bothering me so far. I think removing the rear filter should drop 10k and up though, could replace it with regular stainless nozzle mesh and see.
> 
> Side note, I see the "upgraded version" of the 10mm planar on chitty store is 2mm taller (5mm vs 3mm.) But the frequency response on that one looks weird.



There's an upgrade?! Where? o.o

The 14mm one has a really funny response but has a very satisfying bass. 10mm is better as a full range. I used a 3D printed back cavity to get a uniform back cavity, and the vent fits just right at the faceplate. 

Great tuning though! I never managed to get the 3.5khz peak so I'm amazed at your results. I think maybe I always used tubing so it had pretty crap results in FR...


----------



## Masaikem (Dec 21, 2020)




----------



## Masaikem (Jan 9, 2021)




----------



## Masaikem (Jan 9, 2021)




----------



## Aldo40

Masaikem said:


>



Hello,
Are you sure about your capacitor placement?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Aldo40 said:


> Hello,
> Are you sure about your capacitor placement?


its a lowpass and that too minute

its fine


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Masaikem said:


>


what if we measure the impedance after this circuit and then flatten the impedance

plus, every inductor has a resistance  value for it
so dont know if @Masaikem circuit will work as intended by him via us but its worth the try


----------



## Aldo40 (Dec 21, 2020)

Yes a low pass but the low pass I know starts with the serial inductor and after the capacitor placed in // between the inductor and the drivers no?


----------



## Masaikem

dhruvmeena96 said:


> what if we measure the impedance after this circuit and then flatten the impedance
> 
> plus, every inductor has a resistance  value for it
> so dont know if @Masaikem circuit will work as intended by him via us but its worth the try





Aldo40 said:


> Yes a low pass but the low pass I know starts with the serial inductor and after the capacitor placed in // between the inductor and the drivers no?






This is the frequency Graph
Under IEC-60318-AWA6162


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Aldo40 said:


> Yes a low pass but the low pass I know starts with the serial inductor and after the capacitor placed in // between the inductor and the drivers no?


yes its a low pass which has less effect on impedance from inductor side(as its a series inductor and it doesnt increase or decrease resistance value)
overall
its a 2.77kHz low down slope and on 2354 with those aggressive peak, makes sense
to not loose much treble a white damper

but i want to see the structure of impedance.
what i think will be slightly more aggressive impedance rise


----------



## Masaikem (Jan 9, 2021)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> yes its a low pass which has less effect on impedance from inductor side(as its a series inductor and it doesnt increase or decrease resistance value)
> overall
> its a 2.77kHz low down slope and on 2354 with those aggressive peak, makes sense
> to not loose much treble a white damper
> ...





Aldo40 said:


> Yes a low pass but the low pass I know starts with the serial inductor and after the capacitor placed in // between the inductor and the drivers no?










Some data of this
10Ohm@1kHz


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Masaikem said:


> Some data of this
> 10Ohm@1kHz


It's fixable

Give me exact DCR and 500Hz

I will come up with some zobel circuit


----------



## Masaikem (Dec 21, 2020)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> It's fixable
> 
> Give me exact DCR and 500Hz
> 
> I will come up with some zobel circuit


dcr about 4.15
6 ohm @500Hz


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Dec 21, 2020)

Masaikem said:


> dcr about 4.15
> 6 ohm @500Hz


51.25695358978081uF
5.1875ohms

Use nearby values for zobel

This should work


----------



## Masaikem

dhruvmeena96 said:


> 51.25695358978081uF
> 5.1875ohms
> 
> Use nearby values for zobel
> ...



Are you using 2354 as a low pass?
 It doesn't work. 
2354 is full frequency driver

Inductance and capacitance are used here to eliminate some of the high-frequency noise

Low frequency should be handed over to CI series,etc.

But it might work for 2354+ WBFK


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Masaikem said:


> Are you using 2354 as a low pass?
> It doesn't work.
> 2354 is full frequency driver
> 
> ...


This is a zobel and not a lowpass

It is used to flatten impedance


----------



## dhruvmeena96

dhruvmeena96 said:


> This is a zobel and not a lowpass
> 
> It is used to flatten impedance


And also

The one I calculated for is Sonion 2354 with inductor and cap for tuning - zobel - mmcx or 2pin

The order of circuit placement


----------



## Masaikem

dhruvmeena96 said:


> And also
> 
> The one I calculated for is Sonion 2354 with inductor and cap for tuning - zobel - mmcx or 2pin
> 
> The order of circuit placement





dhruvmeena96 said:


> And also
> 
> The one I calculated for is Sonion 2354 with inductor and cap for tuning - zobel - mmcx or 2pin
> 
> The order of circuit placement



Thank you for reminding us, but we have a professional calculator to calculate these parameters

A word of caution, Zobel is not suitable for headphone drivers, and has been tested many times

The catheters are more useful, zobel, so much for that

You won't get any more progress by staying at Zobel------Sincere advice from me.

If you look at enough headphones, you'll find that almost no major manufacturer uses Zobel on Knowles or Sonion of single driver

But as a hobby, it would be fun


----------



## Wgibson

Any downside to zobel aside from cost/complexity?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Masaikem said:


> Thank you for reminding us, but we have a professional calculator to calculate these parameters
> 
> A word of caution, Zobel is not suitable for headphone drivers, and has been tested many times
> 
> ...


First every driver has different parameters
I get what you want to say

But this is for hobby.
Plus very few brands provide flat impedance load (and since I am from Engineeting background having OCD for flat impedance).. I like to zobel

Also about major manufacturer. Calculating zobel is pita.

Also I am experimenting with series crossover but the requirement for it to work correctly is resistive speaker load.
So here we are back to zobel circuits again lol.

The thing is, manufacturers have to care about how much they have to make in profit and also pay the staff accordingly to the laws etc etc etc.
That's why you see less experimentation.

And as far I know, the older zobel on this thread was pretty finicky. But since the updates and head scratching from some of the members and me 
It works, doesn't change response.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Wgibson said:


> Any downside to zobel aside from cost/complexity?


Nope.... Perfected a long time back
But yes
Cost complexity is an issue

And zobel makes complete sense if you want to do series crossover

For parallel crossover, there are different ways to reach the desired goals like Lpad, specific crossover tuning etc etc


----------



## dhruvmeena96

dhruvmeena96 said:


> It's fixable
> 
> Give me exact DCR and 500Hz
> 
> I will come up with some zobel circuit


Now I think
Instead of using zobel

Get a SWFK and cross it above 10kHz for the rolling off treble without effecting the FR from main driver


----------



## Masaikem

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Now I think
> Instead of using zobel
> 
> Get a SWFK and cross it above 10kHz for the rolling off treble without effecting the FR from main driver


I see. What's the most complicated combination you've ever made?


----------



## Masaikem

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Now I think
> Instead of using zobel
> 
> Get a SWFK and cross it above 10kHz for the rolling off treble without effecting the FR from main driver



This is the QDC Neptune parameter.
It can not be suitable for SWFK, but it may be because of translation software that I have a misunderstanding


----------



## Masaikem (Dec 21, 2020)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> what if we measure the impedance after this circuit and then flatten the impedance
> 
> plus, every inductor has a resistance  value for it
> so dont know if @Masaikem circuit will work as intended by him via us but its worth the try

















What type is your occluded ear (artificial ear)?
I have Bruel&Kjaer Type4195 and AWA6162, both of which are based on IEC60318-4.
If the models are inconsistent, I will make the corresponding conversion, so that we can communicate better.
I've always used ARTA, because Soundcheck is too cumbersome to use


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Masaikem said:


> What type is your occluded ear (artificial ear)?
> I have Bruel&Kjaer Type4195 and AWA6162, both of which are based on IEC60318-4.
> If the models are inconsistent, I will make the corresponding conversion, so that we can communicate better.
> I've always used ARTA, because Soundcheck is too cumbersome to enable


IEC711 or 60318 non high res(chinese one)
i sold it to my friend due to some issue(you might see that i havent posted for somewhile at back, i was going through a lot of problems.)



Masaikem said:


> This is the QDC Neptune parameter.
> It can not be suitable for SWFK, but it may be because of translation software that I have a misunderstanding



this is all about making something new
i am not saying that its any other iem parameter
but if we can mod our way through and new things to it
why not
its not hard to add a tweeter



Masaikem said:


> I see. What's the most complicated combination you've ever made?


There are many, but i mostly build together rather than solo

(6 driver 6 way- cannot disclose)

(18 driver

sonion 38D1XJ Lpad 4.7ohm series parallel
Sonion 28uap x 2 series high pass at 333Hz
DWFK x 4 series parallel
SWFK x 2 series (wbfk parameter aheieved)

)

but most complicated thing i did was to get EST boost more with a horn(still not reached it)

and some hearing aids
non high res)


----------



## Masaikem (Dec 21, 2020)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> IEC711 or 60318 non high res(chinese one)
> i sold it to my friend due to some issue(you might see that i havent posted for somewhile at back, i was going through a lot of problems.)
> 
> 
> ...



Are there any specific graphics or waterfall parameters?
Or you forget to test curve graph?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Masaikem said:


> Are there any specific graphics or waterfall parameters?
> Or you forget to test curve graph?


i didnt forget
old phone broke so lost my backup

i will find it with my friend and post here as i was building with him


----------



## Wgibson

@Masaikem you obviously have a lot of knowledge, what is your background?

Maybe it is just me, but I have a hard time navigating this forum etiquette. Very long threads that bounce back and forth on subjects, hard to figure out who is who, any new specific threads seem to die without much attention, etc.

No signatures on posts so that keeps me confused too


----------



## gregeagle

Masaikem said:


> 60232＝30017＋1uf(cap on 30017drivers)
> 
> and you should Invert 30017 positive and negative
> (I didnt notice this error when I was drawing this sch)


looks like a very interesting design.....
since i do not have inductors what low pass would you suggest for the 33aj007 in this design to come quite close?? and I think the tube calculation is weird....10+14mm is not 20?!    
cheers Greg


----------



## Masaikem

gregeagle said:


> looks like a very interesting design.....
> since i do not have inductors what low pass would you suggest for the 33aj007 in this design to come quite close?? and I think the tube calculation is weird....10+14mm is not 20?!
> cheers Greg



They're not parallel, they're a y-shaped structure

One 10mm long and one 20mm long form a y-shaped structure

14mm is just where they combine


----------



## Masaikem

gregeagle said:


> looks like a very interesting design.....
> since i do not have inductors what low pass would you suggest for the 33aj007 in this design to come quite close?? and I think the tube calculation is weird....10+14mm is not 20?!
> cheers Greg



This low pass design is modeled after the UE18


----------



## Masaikem (Dec 22, 2020)

Low frequency long conduit design is actually quite common


----------



## tomekk

Masaikem said:


> @Masaikem



Thank you. I looked this for two years. Parts ordered.


----------



## Masaikem (Dec 23, 2020)

gregeagle said:


> looks like a very interesting design.....
> since i do not have inductors what low pass would you suggest for the 33aj007 in this design to come quite close?? and I think the tube calculation is weird....10+14mm is not 20?!
> cheers Greg




Low frequency long conduit design is actually quite common


----------



## Masaikem

tomekk said:


> Thank you. I looked this for two years. Parts ordered.



Remember to reverse positive and negative of 30017 According to the sketch

(I didnt notice this error when I was drawing this sch)


----------



## gregeagle (Dec 24, 2020)

Masaikem said:


> They're not parallel, they're a y-shaped structure
> 
> One 10mm long and one 20mm long form a y-shaped structure
> 
> 14mm is just where they combine


Cool gotcha!!!
Thanks! 😬😬😬


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Masaikem said:


>


Is it 10uH or 10mH
Because in uH
The roll off will be on high frequency way past 20kHz


----------



## Masaikem

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Is it 10uH or 10mH
> Because in uH
> The roll off will be on high frequency way past 20kHz


uH
The idea came from engineers at QDC
You can do it at ease


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Masaikem said:


> Thank you for reminding us, but we have a professional calculator to calculate these parameters
> 
> A word of caution, Zobel is not suitable for headphone drivers, and has been tested many times
> 
> ...


I didn't get catheters ?
And also about professional calculators



Wgibson said:


> @Masaikem you obviously have a lot of knowledge, what is your background?
> 
> Maybe it is just me, but I have a hard time navigating this forum etiquette. Very long threads that bounce back and forth on subjects, hard to figure out who is who, any new specific threads seem to die without much attention, etc.
> 
> No signatures on posts so that keeps me confused too


@Wgibson 
For that you have to start from the group page 1 hahahaha. There is no etiquette, the group is like library without a bookentry book.
Just knowledge, experiments and random chat thrown in a pot , then fused with heat , modified in iem and repeat.

For who is who
@piotrus-g The Custom art 
@Xymordos the person who uses planar for midrange purpose only and has created 16 driver iem, just for fun
@Furco the person who used fullrange to assist a cross driver, filling the dips


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Masaikem said:


> uH
> The idea came from engineers at QDC
> You can do it at ease


Also
For experiment
Sonion 2354 and 2389 are electrically the same and also same in uppermids
 the 2354 has a bass vent to gently boost bass
So if we use 2389
I think we can get slightly leaner mid, don't we

Plus, if you have some inductor, can you mess with it
Like 20uH and it's effect

How does the whole system reacts?
If possible


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Masaikem said:


> 60232＝30017＋1uf(cap on 30017drivers)
> 
> and you should Invert 30017 positive and negative
> (I didnt notice this error when I was drawing this sch)


Can you share graph, impedance value of DCR and 500Hz of this Bro


----------



## tomekk

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Can you share graph, impedance value of DCR and 500Hz of this Bro



Merry christmas Union Europea 20-18


----------



## dhruvmeena96

tomekk said:


> Merry christmas Union Europea 20-18


Why did ya tag me
Well
4hrs for me
Happy Christmas to ya alll


----------



## gregeagle

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Can you share graph, impedance value of DCR and 500Hz of this Bro


Can somebody give info or links for apropriate conductors 33uH???

Merry Xmas!


----------



## dhruvmeena96

gregeagle said:


> Can somebody give info or links for apropriate conductors 33uH???
> 
> Merry Xmas!


10uH available on ali
Multiply it by 3


----------



## gregeagle

Would these be ok: EATON DR74-330-R, 33uH, 143mohm, 1,41A??


----------



## dhruvmeena96

gregeagle said:


> Would these be ok: EATON DR74-330-R, 33uH, 143mohm, 1,41A??


Milli ohm
Yes


----------



## Masaikem

gregeagle said:


> Would these be ok: EATON DR74-330-R, 33uH, 143mohm, 1,41A??







LPS4018-333MLC  33uH

This is the model ultimate ears use


----------



## Masaikem

gregeagle said:


> Would these be ok: EATON DR74-330-R, 33uH, 143mohm, 1,41A??


----------



## gregeagle

Masaikem said:


>


Thanks... is there a 24.9ohm resistor???? Or do they mix some together to come to the values you statet in your drawing??
Cheers Greg


----------



## MISHKA2020

gregeagle said:


> Thanks... is there a 24.9ohm resistor???? Or do they mix some together to come to the values you statet in your drawing??
> Cheers Greg




Hi. There is resistor 1/2W around 25Ohm i guess. I get few.


----------



## MISHKA2020

Hi guys! Merry Christmas to everyone  . One question about soldering zobel. Does anyone have a better idea how to combine zobel? Is it good to connect everything in series like this or maybe connect them with a wire between resistors and capacitors? Just for easier insertion into the shell. Let me introduce you to my "art" of soldering ...  LoL. Show me please your work if you got  . Chears


----------



## Masaikem

gregeagle said:


> Thanks... is there a 24.9ohm resistor???? Or do they mix some together to come to the values you statet in your drawing??
> Cheers Greg



UE18 have 4 different versions, and this is a variation of one of them


----------



## ForceMajeure

MISHKA2020 said:


> Hi guys! Merry Christmas to everyone  . One question about soldering zobel. Does anyone have a better idea how to combine zobel? Is it good to connect everything in series like this or maybe connect them with a wire between resistors and capacitors? Just for easier insertion into the shell. Let me introduce you to my "art" of soldering ...  LoL. Show me please your work if you got  . Chears


You might want to consider introducing a wire between them, that way it'll be easier to fit this long thing inside the shell.



gregeagle said:


> Would these be ok: EATON DR74-330-R, 33uH, 143mohm, 1,41A??



Regarding inductors, keep in mind that they all have different DCR and it will affect the sound. you can buy coilcraft, bourns, vishay...they come in all kind of sizes and shape. they take a lot of space inside an iem depending on the one you get. you can find similar inductance with different dimensions on certain models but the DCR is usually different between them so it might be something you want to take into consideration as well.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

ForceMajeure said:


> You might want to consider introducing a wire between them, that way it'll be easier to fit this long thing inside the shell.
> 
> 
> 
> Regarding inductors, keep in mind that they all have different DCR and it will affect the sound. you can buy coilcraft, bourns, vishay...they come in all kind of sizes and shape. they take a lot of space inside an iem depending on the one you get. you can find similar inductance with different dimensions on certain models but the DCR is usually different between them so it might be something you want to take into consideration as well.


That's why I don't prefer inductors in iem system
The space and DCR and also variability between DCR per manufacturers


----------



## dhruvmeena96

MISHKA2020 said:


> Hi guys! Merry Christmas to everyone  . One question about soldering zobel. Does anyone have a better idea how to combine zobel? Is it good to connect everything in series like this or maybe connect them with a wire between resistors and capacitors? Just for easier insertion into the shell. Let me introduce you to my "art" of soldering ...  LoL. Show me please your work if you got  . Chears


This is fine but is prone to break due to shock
Having less component is better due to lenght(more lenght, more torque and many weak point as solder points)


----------



## Masaikem

MISHKA2020 said:


> Hi guys! Merry Christmas to everyone  . One question about soldering zobel. Does anyone have a better idea how to combine zobel? Is it good to connect everything in series like this or maybe connect them with a wire between resistors and capacitors? Just for easier insertion into the shell. Let me introduce you to my "art" of soldering ...  LoL. Show me please your work if you got  . Chears






you can use 0402 type.

And a 3D-printed shell makes things easier.


----------



## Wgibson

Been doing some A/B listing with these planars, and they are still coming out on top. I don't have any real high end iems, so take that into account. But the closest ones are KZ ZAX, CCA C16 (the older all BA set) and RHA T20 which is actually very capable for a single dd (dual voice coil.)

But something about the super high frequencies, 10k+, cymbals especially sound much more natural with the planars. Live recordings have some hiss, but it just makes things more realistic.. And the sub bass is definitely there, the curve tells you that. Low/mid bass is very precise and instrument separation is great. I need to get some more of those 10mm planar drivers.

I have an idea for a variable V shaped iem, with a sub bass DD and a super high crossover BA, both in parallel on a 50ohm trimpot, so you can dial it up/down. EST would be good for highs if I get a little more confidence in making iems and decide to spend the money, or win the lottery 

But I feel like results with this planar driver are so good, I don't know about messing with multi BA setups. I have 4 pairs of RAFs in the mail so I will try to follow the recipe on those, as best I can.

P.S. zero acoustic filtering on the planars, tuning done only with front volume, and special rear chamber. Curve again, because I am pretty proud of it:


----------



## mattmatt

Masaikem said:


> you can use 0402 type.
> 
> And a 3D-printed shell makes things easier.


You made this? This looks great


----------



## Masaikem

mattmatt said:


> You made this? This looks great



Yes, we made. 







3D printing is also a important production method nowadays. 
Although the traditional production method cannot be replaced, 3D printing is more accurate and efficient


----------



## mattmatt

Masaikem said:


> Yes, we made.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What software are you using to design shells? 

For the Etymotic type, it's a the nozzle weak?


----------



## Masaikem (Dec 27, 2020)

mattmatt said:


> What software are you using to design shells?
> 
> For the Etymotic type, it's a the nozzle weak?



We regret that we cannot disclose the software we use now

we used the Secret ear4.0 software from cyfex before,this software is very nice but it was too expensive and our focus was on universal design, we stopped using it

Our original software provider came from 3Shape now
focus on universal design.

This model is indeed modeled after Etymotic.
Just thought it was interesting


----------



## tomekk

Masaikem said:


>



I like this design line. Beautiful!


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Masaikem said:


> We regret that we cannot disclose the software we use now
> 
> we used the Secret ear4.0 software from cyfex before,this software is very nice but it was too expensive and our focus was on universal design, we stopped using it
> 
> ...


We?

Also, can you tell something in detail about effects of inductor (only inductor) to driver.

How does single BA behaves when it's given a inductive load.


----------



## kmmm

What are the pros and cons of using inductors? (except for size)
Or what are pros and cons of RC vs LRC crossovers? (related to BA's and IEM's)


----------



## stephensynanta16

MISHKA2020 said:


> Hi guys! Merry Christmas to everyone  . One question about soldering zobel. Does anyone have a better idea how to combine zobel? Is it good to connect everything in series like this or maybe connect them with a wire between resistors and capacitors? Just for easier insertion into the shell. Let me introduce you to my "art" of soldering ...  LoL. Show me please your work if you got  . Chears


Nice one mate!

Its okay, i did similar stuff a lot


----------



## stephensynanta16

Been practicing with diy etching (because  i dont have access to precise laser cut)

Will post some tutorial soon, so u guys can put some logo on ur beloved diy iem, to make it look pro.


----------



## dragoxqwas

Does anyone know where I can obtain some Bellsing drivers in the US? Knowles drivers are pretty expensive and all the Bellsing listings seem to be removed or "unavailable" on Aliexpress, Soundlink doesn't sell them anymore.


----------



## tomekk

dragoxqwas said:


> Does anyone know where I can obtain some Bellsing drivers in the US? Knowles drivers are pretty expensive and all the Bellsing listings seem to be removed or "unavailable" on Aliexpress, Soundlink doesn't sell them anymore.



Check DWEK-31736 on Ali, the same sound and parameters like B*, other housing -recommended. They produce also The CI (cool as a dampered woofer, as a full range no), DWFK can be pretty much ok,  not worth the money WBFK, RAB, ED.


----------



## Aldo40

mattmatt said:


> What software are you using to design shells?



personally I use Fusion360, it’s free and you can do everything with it


----------



## tomekk

Masaikem said:


> LPS4018-333MLC  33uH
> 
> This is the model * use



LPS4018-333MRC 33uH
LPS3314-103MRC 10uH they are closest current parameters (I think) available in stock if anyone is interested.


----------



## mattmatt

Aldo40 said:


> personally I use Fusion360, it’s free and you can do everything with it


Been using F360 too but holy heck, I'm having a really hard time making IEM shells especially tubing, driver chambers, etc. Any hints or advices?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

audiophileeee said:


> Hello team
> does anyone tried made some diy ATM earphones?
> like "Project Heaven" on AMT driver (Air Motion Transformer technology)?


how
when
where

did this happen
and how in world did you make such a small AMT
hats off


----------



## Xymordos

Woah is it a self assembled driver? I made a ribbon driver hybrid but couldn't find a suitable transformer for it :\


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Xymordos said:


> Woah is it a self assembled driver? I made a ribbon driver hybrid but couldn't find a suitable transformer for it :\


I know the pain of that driver you went through
@Xymordos 
Need speaker amp lmao


----------



## Xymordos

audiophileeee said:


> better use someting small and effective
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I scoured Mouser but a transformer like that doesn't seem to exist...do you have any clues? 

Is that headphone the one from Taobao?


----------



## Aldo40 (Dec 30, 2020)

mattmatt said:


> Been using F360 too but holy heck, I'm having a really hard time making IEM shells especially tubing, driver chambers, etc. Any hints or advices?



then I don’t use the simplest functions of fusion360 so I do my tubing with several circles and then I connect my circles with the smoothing function


----------



## Wgibson

Came across a few mystery sonion low frequency drivers, anybody have info or educated guesses?

38ANP011GM/8a (38A "N" is not a typo)
Appears to be similar to the other 38 series, dual unit, maybe just a different / no damper?

20x53 (also marked 1614a)
Or P20x53 (also marked 1605a)

No idea, looks small but couldn't find dimensions. Nozzle same side as solder joints, plastic nozzle adapter.


----------



## piotrus-g (Jan 1, 2021)

Wgibson said:


> Came across a few mystery sonion low frequency drivers, anybody have info or educated guesses?
> 
> 38ANP011GM/8a (38A "N" is not a typo)
> Appears to be similar to the other 38 series, dual unit, maybe just a different / no damper?
> ...


38 - model
AN - spout position
P - parallel
011 - impedance (probably around 100 ohms)
G - ground
M/8a - venting type

20x53 - is a custom impedance ratio driver 1614a is 16 week of 2014 - production date
P probably means a prototype or proprietary


----------



## MISHKA2020

Guys. I know, it's been wrighting about Lack 3 and about it goes yellowish. I saw that few days ago on my first white iems. So, any sugest... Wich cuting time is enough to be fully cured and not to go yellowish? Around 3-4 min? Last time i did 8 min like a saw on some tutorial video from YT. Happy new year to all 😊😊


----------



## mattmatt

MISHKA2020 said:


> Guys. I know, it's been wrighting about Lack 3 and about it goes yellowish. I saw that few days ago on my first white iems. So, any sugest... Wich cuting time is enough to be fully cured and not to go yellowish? Around 3-4 min? Last time i did 8 min like a saw on some tutorial video from YT. Happy new year to all 😊😊


Hey man, it will depend solely on your curing light setup, how new/efficient yours still. 

I go 4 minutes on mine. 8 mins is too long I guess but wouldn't yellow too much.


----------



## Wgibson

A few random questions, if you'll indulge me:

1) Do you worry about impedance when mixing drivers, or just watch out for sensitivity and plan for a series resistor if needed? Assuming all dissimilar drivers are wired in parallel. Please challenge this assumption if needed, not sure about different drivers in series? But very interested in that discussion, if there is one to be had. If you're doing identical quad drivers or something then series/parallel makes sense of course, but please comment either way.

1b) I use room eq wizard and yes I do need to make an impedance measurement setup, and plan on that soon.

2) Physical/acoustic low pass for subs, could you use very small / relatively long brass tubing? Probably still with an RC low pass first order. Down to 0.2mm ID, I assume I'll have to just graph it and see, but could there be any benefit to this vs larger tubing and dampers? Worried about crimping the tube, but if you bend it with some sort of internal fill like fishing line, then remove after bending, it should work... I am a mechanical engineer and also tend to immediately hate everything when I try to use an equalizer, so my preference is mechanical, then electrical, solutions, equalization is a last resort and I'd rather burn it all down before using EQ. 

2a) I also have a general distaste for dampers...  Foam in the nozzle I am OK with (again, DD or planar tuning experience), but for me dampers = muddy, this might just be something personal I will need to deal with. But I have it in my head that a length/diameter restriction might give a cleaner sound than dampers. Please tell me I'm wrong.

2b) Knowles CI-30120 are dirt cheap, and apparently very similar to 22995. I'm betting the farm on those. Also will get a pair of sonion 38d1xj, but for more than 10x the cost, hope to get the CIs to work. 

3) Fair warning, aliexpress is definitely a gateway drug. I have been on vacation from work and got on taobao via superbuy (I live in the US) so have done a ton of digging on super low cost BAs the past few days. I plan to order a bunch of random BAs to build up my parts bin and see what I can do with universal shells. Then I'm sure I will eventually get into custom shells and/or 3D printed shells. I can post a list if anybody is interested. Talking ~$2 or so for a dual driver knowles, I'm amazed at what is available on there. Many are used/pulled, but still, I'd probably kill a few with my soldering skills so get a bunch and take the risk.

4) I have done some basic tuning (front/rear volume, foam, micropore tape, etc) with DDs and those planars (seem very similar so far) but no real experience with BA tuning yet. I have a bunch of tubing and have dampers on order as well. If I seem overconfident, please reel me in 

5) Yes I am a bit limited by my imm6, but it is working for me so far. If anyone has a lead on a good iec711 clone or other measurement set up, let me know. Really I can't complain, can easily do A/B assessments so far.

6) Based on all that, what should I be focusing on? I'm just winging it and am aware I don't know what I don't know know.

7) Happy new year to everyone. Hopefully it's not worse than the last.


----------



## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


----------



## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


----------



## MISHKA2020

Right on said:


> I uploaded Screenshots because i couldn't upload high resolution images on headfi.
> 
> I have also bought a high resolution 3d resin printer for printing a nozzle with 3 bores for the tubes  .
> 
> This time will be no joke this build.



Thumbs up man! Rock on 😊. Wich 3D printer did you buy?


----------



## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


----------



## Aldo40

Right on said:


> Thank you 🙂
> 
> Anycubic photon mono x


It is necessary to make a complete shell with the printer and not only a 3D nozzle because with the drivers config mentioned above, the universal shell of SoundLink which too small to fit all this


----------



## musmecca

Right on said:


> Hi guys .
> I wanted to share how happy i am .
> 
> Sonion 38d1xj00mi - 4× dual driver (sub) woofer
> ...


Check out Dhruv's build...he threw it out a while back and I simply sketched it.  This the one you are doing?


----------



## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


----------



## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jan 3, 2021)

Right on said:


> Hi friend  🙂
> 
> This interesting one   .
> He uses one 33aj007  ?
> ...


Ok lol wait
Who told you cross worsen the sound
This is not speaker but iem you are building.
Crossover distortion when added with room and phase distortion becomes bad

That room is absent in iem?
Phase you can adjust with tube lenght and time delay doesn't happen in such a small tube difference

I just don't get where you are loosing sound quality??

also, if you are so much worried about the component, then try making a active crossover with amp


----------



## sadburai (Jan 3, 2021)

Hi guys,

I am trying to repair my Westone UM2. The volume on the right ear is lower compared to the left (most pronounced in mid frequencies). I already removed both ear wax filters.

The* transparent sleeves *(see photo/video) on the balanced armature drivers' output tubes are damaged. Does anyone know where I could get replacement sleeves?

thanks!
Till

EDIT: At low frequencies, it seems that I have 2 problems:  (I used a frequency generator at 65 Hz: https://www.szynalski.com/tone-generator/), 
1.) Volume is overall much lower on the bad side (fit seems to be good on both sides)
2.) - On the good side, I hear only the base frequency (rumbling bass, as it should be)
     - on the bad side, the base frequency is mixed with higher frequencies (maybe overtones?).

Does anyone have an idea what might cause this behavior?
Despite this, the In Ears still sound reasonably well, so I'll try to repair them or continue to use them anyway.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

sadburai said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I am trying to repair my Westone UM2. The volume on the right ear is lower compared to the left (most pronounced in mid frequencies). I already removed both ear wax filters.
> 
> ...



My brother
Measure the sleeve dimension with a scale(dirty method) or vernier caliper

Get a tube and cut it according to dimension
But, the volume issue might be BA

Why don't you try to recreate UM2 or make new iem completely better than UM2(since it's a completely outdated design




This is the graph and 8kHz is resonance of old coupler standard

I guess it should be easy to recreate with Knowles HE(CI and ED combo).


----------



## Aldo40

Right on said:


> Hi friend  🙂
> 
> This interesting one   .
> He uses one 33aj007  ?
> ...



Hi,
Ambient acoustic did this without components on their MAD but the chamber is specific.
2.2uf on the EST, asks Dhruv what he thinks but I think it’s a lot White shock absorber on the 2889D is low or then it will take a significant length of tube to erase the.two peaks.

38DX, despite its curve, you may have additional damping needs, Having measured them they do not fall as much. I need to have at least 5cm of 3D tube in but shell with an extra yellow damper for the 38dx. Think about the place in the shell. I had to pull out a hundred 3D shells to make a proper chamber for one model. , and I don’t count the unusable shell I had to do to adjust the printer and the resin You have ambition, it’s cool but you can’t imagine the galleys that are coming 


Regarding the filter, it’s not because there are a lot of components that it deteriorates the signal on the contrary it serves to merge them. The use without filter is good when the drivers are fairly linear and offers curves that are adapted, if they are not you will have to draw chambers to break some areas to smooth them. This is very interesting but to find the right formula is not simple. For your EST they will work better at the closest of the nozzle in a minimum tube of 1.5mm, then already a simple EST it is not easy to place, there with two EST it is impossible mission with the rest of your config because it is necessary to place the output tubes of the other drivers.

Another thing that is complicated, position the damper in a 3D acoustic chamber at beak input, the efficiency is less because of the speed. ambient for example puts one at the outlet of the nozzle but it makes room because it represents a hole in 3D of 2.10mm diameter on 2.50 mm long. I like this idea of design but it is really not simple

I do not want to discourage but rather encourage you but you will have to lay everything flat on paper because it is full of pitfalls. 
Aldo


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jan 3, 2021)

Aldo40 said:


> Hi,
> Ambient acoustic did this without components on their MAD but the chamber is specific.
> 2.2uf on the EST, asks Dhruv what he thinks but I think it’s a lot White shock absorber on the 2889D is low or then it will take a significant length of tube to erase the.two peaks.
> 
> ...


Naah, I am not discouraged or anything
Ambeint acoustic MAD did drop distortion by multiplying driver but that doesn't fix IMD and Doppler distortion and armature and in ear are specifically very small sound producing device which diaphragm resonancs doesn't even cover frequency spectrum. So distortion is always higher. Plus, BA act as a pressure device, it pushes a jet of air(sound out) and sucks back in, and while being in a tube structure causes push pull, making them 3rd order Harmonic distortive (that defines the armature resolution and tightness compared to leaking Dynamic which is more forgiving as it's more of a Second order Harmonic distortion).
Hard to explain, but you might need to read Nelson Pass articles for it(even though I have mixed bag feeling on his amp, some are great, some not to my taste...but he is a legend in audio engineering).

The IMD and Doppler plus 3rd Harmonic is what makes BA sound like BA. To get rid of these three, you have to cross them properly.. 
What you should focus on is to have less acoustic resistance(damper) to no acoustic dampers, as they cause real signal masking.

If you go that way, you have maximum efficiency transfer of electrical to mechanical to acoustical

Usage of damper, creates a N loss(n for efficiency in speaker parameter) and convert your signal into heat.
I know, knowles damper is used to shape frequency and I am not against it.

The thing is, either you can brute force with multiple driver to reduce 3rd order or do crossover to eliminate Doppler and IMD. And I feel there is more advantages to simple-complex crossover(less component per driver but still becoming complex)
And I prefer more flat impedance loading to amp so that power delivery is perfect and amp doesn't have to push hard at specific part, flatter electrical and acoustical phase and the most important, the frequency response, decay and impulse.

Also it's not shock absorber but damper or specifically arranged sheet of fabric tuned to specific resistance or micro alligned foam.

Again about EST, it's about taste where you wanna cross and it depends
But max limit I can say for tuning is 4uF, I prefer it below 1uF

So 2uF is safe

Plus, its better to assist it with a BA tweeter since they are not loud... And yes
They are not


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Right on said:


> Hi friend  🙂
> 
> This interesting one   .
> He uses one 33aj007  ?
> ...


EST65 all share same transformer so it's to the person who is using

For 33AJ, it's a high pass so a big driver doing mids lower distortion parameters significantly.

And 38D1XJ is just damped and Lpad since distortion in bass is less noticeable and that big driver has huge headroom , so lpad removes a lot dB for cleaner output and damping it fixes many issues and give cleaner bass shelf

2389 in CT and highpass makes it cover pinna region or uppermids till the treble and est assists it.


----------



## Aldo40

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Naah, I am not discouraged or anything


Hi Dhruv, my message was addressed to @Right on


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Aldo40 said:


> Hi Dhruv, my message was addressed to @Right on


LoL
I did opsie again, 
Broke my leg snapped it back, and have swollen hip, 
So I didn't read the message completely due to pain lmao


----------



## Aldo40

Dhruv, I talked some year on diyaudio with nelson 
As for the design, the idea is interesting, I did not like the MAD even if it is well done, I prefer to filter my drivers normally


----------



## Aldo40

dhruvmeena96 said:


> LoL
> I did opsie again,
> Broke my leg snapped it back, and have swollen hip,
> So I didn't read the message completely due to pain lmao


then take good care


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jan 3, 2021)

Aldo40 said:


> Dhruv, I talked some year on diyaudio with nelson
> As for the design, the idea is interesting, I did not like the MAD even if it is well done, I prefer to filter my drivers normally


Papa Nelson.... Hahahah

Again, I am still working on controlling distortion structure of BA with acoustic structures. Trying to make it sound more like Dynamic 

@Xymordos has it
@stephensynanta16 made it

It was last year and was based on knowles SR and the chamber did the damping and making knowles SR sound more like DD while very roughly obliging to DF.

I forgot the measurement as that was just rough practice on structure

But the logic is
First you use a horn to reduce pressure and have better impedance load(acoustic air impedance), then you compress it with a reverse horn (depends how quickly you wanna decompress) but the compression end point or throat has to be bigger than BA spout, and then again use a small horn

This expands the air, then compresses it back and expands it, 

Plus the big air chamber formed by two opposite horn acts as a lumped inductance and damps the frequency on wider range.

Same was with RAB-p I designed, now ages ago.

The resonantor is there to do that.


----------



## Aldo40

yes I read that it’s interesting


----------



## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jan 3, 2021)

Right on said:


> Hi .
> This one isn't for me .
> I don't have a ton of drivers ,shells ,and crossovers,  i do not have a company to play hours with iems tuning them .
> 
> ...


1.First add wire to driver
Long one and then cross on wire instead of driver directly
2.there was no crossover on 38D1XJ
3. I think you have crossover trauma... Everybody has that in beginning, it's just that you need to have to get basics from start right(that's why we all are here for.... Ask us... We will be glad to explain)
@Xymordos has made some of the killer bass iem period


Now about campfire

This is going to be rant and also some simple truth

They don't know how to get pinna or uppermid right... Period

Ara, if you have heard, sucks bad. Didn't like the sound at all.

Andromeda pre2020 sounds like Tin can and sibilant without any thought given to impedance at all

Andromeda post 2020 is fine, and is good

Campfire IO is the worst thing I have heard. 1$ earbuds sold nearby my metro from Street vendors is better

Campfire Orion and Nova were the best iem campfire produced in respect of tuning and they still sound nice

Orion sounds like EX1000 with better treble control and BA tonality

Comet was ok

Dorado and Polaris are polarising bad for a balanced listener like me(but it might be good for those who need insane bass).

Rant end

About EST
Where did you read 130dB....

Shiet

It doesn't even reach 90dB properly on some frequency

See the datasheet and see the line which represent IEC711 graph


----------



## Aldo40 (Jan 3, 2021)

Right on said:


> And im sure you never had good bass with this one . Im 100% sure . This one never sounded good.  No offense. Is Only my opinion



You tried the 38dx without a filter to assert that?

I think you have to mount the configuration and make a comparison before being so affirmative



As for the use without filter of Andromeda or ambient, I think they use at least drivers that use adequate sensitivities for use without filter. Campfire may also have to make custom drivers for them for this use.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Aldo40 said:


> You tried the 38dx without a filter to assert that?
> 
> I think you have to mount the configuration and make a comparison before being so assertive
> 
> ...


The mid driver on andro pre2020
It was bellsing if I remember
Bellsing custom made...

But leave it

It's on engineer how they tune it and not armature mostly


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## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Right on said:


> Thx for the info. 🙂
> 
> I will do same length same diameter exactly the same diameters with this one is preferred on sonions datasheet .
> 
> ...


2389D in series
Add some resistance to tune it to your liking
Add brown I would say since you are going tk use EST for treble purpose. The brown will tame some shoutiness(2 to 4kHz region)on upper mids.

38D1XJ in series and please add Lpad.
The bass this thing produces is insane(bloody insane). I mean you have to series it and Lpad it. Lpad on woofer will also flatten the impedance of whole circuit. Adding a yellow damper fixes the resonance it can produce in tube

Yes, a tube is a resonant device and it has peaks on some frequency (as per tube lenght). And even 38D1 will do some resonances.

EST, damperless, and cross as per your taste.


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## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


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## dhruvmeena96

Right on said:


> 120 db at 30 khz  600 mVrms Burst .
> 
> They are latest technology from sonion
> This one have improved transformator with 2.5 db added gain
> ...


Also, that's a driver self spec, inside a system with distributed power, you would never hit that number. And also, you might never hear 30kHz.
EST is used because of its transient responses


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## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Right on said:


> EST will be in parallel with the other drivers in series.
> For the power sharing.
> The est needs 4 to  5 times more power than the other drivers to play loud.
> I have calculated the impedance and input power of each driver to make them all play loud at limits. 😀  is tricky


I mean
38D1XJ is two driver
I meant internal series

Same for 2389D
They are two driver
Again I meant internal series

What I will do is draw a diagram for you tommorow(if I was not clear enough)
It's late here


----------



## Aldo40

if everything was so easy we’d bother less


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## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


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## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


----------



## Aldo40

Right on said:


> Aldo40
> 😂😂🤣🤣  true
> 
> Doing things complicate brings more problems.
> ...



Everything depends on your requirement in the final result  we are several here has filtered drivers or speakers for decades, we are not here to put obstacles in the wheels because you have another vision, this vision had already crossed our minds


----------



## Xymordos

Sorry...can someone explain what is the MAD tech by Ambient?


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## Aldo40

Xymordos said:


> Sorry...can someone explain what is the MAD tech by Ambient?


The.mad do not use a filter but a specific chamber like the new campfire


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Xymordos said:


> Sorry...can someone explain what is the MAD tech by Ambient?


Multi Armature Driver

Since they make iem with more than 20driver


----------



## musmecca

Hey Dhruvmeena96, I drew out the sonion 38, 33, 2389, and est build per your instructions...I hope it is correct. I realized all the tubes are 12 MM and are 2 MM in diameter..I foresee a collision in the canal with all those drivers and tubes!  If I needed to stagger them or merge tubes, would you merge the 38 and 33 into the same tube? What about a 1 MM extra long tube on the 38 so I can back it out of the way? Appreciate the thoughts...


----------



## Aldo40

On my 38d1x the tube of 1mm gives better result, at home I have almost 6 cm long in 3D chamber, I could do longer but I have more space


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## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


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## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


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## Aldo40 (Jan 3, 2021)

Right on said:


> 1mm ID tube works as a low pass filter.
> Small diameter tubes reduce high frequency output.
> 
> 1.5  - 1.6 mm ID tube works for mid - high frequency or full range drivers
> ...



I feel like you’re teaching us things we already know lol
this topic has more than 12 000 post  


https://www.sonion.com/wp-content/uploads/Documentation_Designing_Earphones.pdf

Aldo


----------



## Aldo40

Right on said:


> Conical shapes may reinforce higher frequencies.


On the MAD tweeter of Ambient Acoustic it’s like that, it’s called 'horn'' it’s the principle of the horn of on the compression tweeter
https://nsa40.casimages.com/img/2020/02/26/200226115239267204.jpg


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## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


----------



## dhruvmeena96

musmecca said:


> Hey Dhruvmeena96, I drew out the sonion 38, 33, 2389, and est build per your instructions...I hope it is correct. I realized all the tubes are 12 MM and are 2 MM in diameter..I foresee a collision in the canal with all those drivers and tubes!  If I needed to stagger them or merge tubes, would you merge the 38 and 33 into the same tube? What about a 1 MM extra long tube on the 38 so I can back it out of the way? Appreciate the thoughts...


Go with smaller ID on woofer, it helps.
33AJ can go with 1.5
Uppermid and tweet has to be 2mm spec because tube resonances begin there


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Aldo40 said:


> On the MAD tweeter of Ambient Acoustic it’s like that, it’s called 'horn'' it’s the principle of the horn of on the compression tweeter
> https://nsa40.casimages.com/img/2020/02/26/200226115239267204.jpg


Hahahahahha lol
Been there done that
The Horn
What's so special to make a name out of it.

The focus now should be that how to get EST driver from ~90dB to 110dB with a horn. Well, get the horn to boost a heck lot.(20dB is possible with a horn in a closed space with recieving source very near by but the horn will be pain in the ass... Only Exponential and straight conical can be done in iem as tractrix takes the space

Otherwise it's not worth it
Isn't it @Aldo40


----------



## Xymordos

Aldo40 said:


> On the MAD tweeter of Ambient Acoustic it’s like that, it’s called 'horn'' it’s the principle of the horn of on the compression tweeter
> https://nsa40.casimages.com/img/2020/02/26/200226115239267204.jpg



That does look just like the Campfire stuff actually.


----------



## Aldo40

dhruvmeena96 said:


> ... Only Exponential and straight conical can be done in iem as tractrix takes the space
> 
> Otherwise it's not worth it
> Isn't it @Aldo40


I approve I do it right in the nozzle with the EST, we don’t have much choice but it already opens the high frequency, I manage to make a Horn 5mm long ID in 1.5mm/ ID out 2.3mm


----------



## Aldo40

Xymordos said:


> That does look just like the Campfire stuff actually.


Yes it is exactly that I had seen one. I exploded both. I tested and measured MAD 10 and 16 by plugging each bores to measure the independent driver and indeed none was filtered. Amazing then it works well but it is not to my taste, I prefer ve8 for example or Erlkonig


----------



## Aldo40

Right on said:


> I know many of you already have read everything exists in internet but for those who don't know is a good info 😜
> 
> Christos


I said this yesterday because there were 3 of us exchanging instantly so I felt like you were giving us new information


----------



## Xymordos

Aldo40 said:


> Yes it is exactly that I had seen one. I exploded both. I tested and measured MAD 10 and 16 by plugging each bores to measure the independent driver and indeed none was filtered. Amazing then it works well but it is not to my taste, I prefer ve8 for example or Erlkonig



Did you actually buy both MAD10 and 16? That's expensive haha. Did they have a chamber inside or is the chamber at the tip the whole thing?

I do agree VE8 and Erlkonig sounds amazing.


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## Aldo40 (Jan 4, 2021)

Xymordos said:


> Did you actually buy both MAD10 and 16? That's expensive haha. Did they have a chamber inside or is the chamber at the tip the whole thing?
> 
> I do agree VE8 and Erlkonig sounds amazing.



The chamber  takes almost the entire shell
The MAD 10/16 no I do not buy them , I had them a.week each during a tour organized by Ambient. I have at home for a few months already VE8, Fir audio M5(tubeless), I also had in loan the earlkonig, PP8S, fitear 335/334, Aure Flame (Tour Aure Audio), EM10/64/32/Stark and many others but those who touched me the most are the.earlkonig , VE8 are not the most technical but I listen to them very often they have something endearing


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## Aldo40 (Jan 5, 2021)

@mattmatt


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## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


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## mattmatt

Aldo40 said:


> @mattmatt


Holy heck! This looks really good. Haven't gotten around trying it! Really excited tho


----------



## Aldo40

Right on said:


> Wich software are you using  ?
> Im using blender
> And 3D Builder.





Fusion360 autodesk


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## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


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## Aldo40 (Jan 5, 2021)

Right on said:


> Thank you .
> This is a very Good good software.
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> Which image you think is right Guys  ?
> ...



yes excellent software 

the first image is the good basic connection, the + are on the side of the face with the 2 vents.

During the design, the phase can be reversed, depending on the filter configuration.

If you measure your drivers, you can more easily see all this with precision.

there are no sound differences between a driver connected upside down, just make sure
that all drivers are in phase no matter how they are plugged in.


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## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


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## Aldo40 (Jan 5, 2021)

Right on said:


> The first image is the good basic connection, the + are on the side of the face with the 2 vents.
> During the design, the phase can be reversed, depending on the filter configuration.
> If you measure your drivers, you can more easily see all this accurately
> 
> ...


to the measure o of a driver alone, you will not see anything different whether they are reversed or not 
For the meet, yes it would be great but we are so far away, then I already have my IEM company but I am all alone


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## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


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## Aldo40

yes I have a site in progress in domain name, I will pass it to you in MP for the moment, I come to discuss from time to time here in this thread related to DIY for help and passion only and not for my business


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## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


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## mattmatt

Aldo40 said:


> to the measure o of a driver alone, you will not see anything different whether they are reversed or not
> For the meet, yes it would be great but we are so far away, then I already have my IEM company but I am all alone


Congrats on your venture. Would you happen to let us know your company? Would love to follow you on social media.


----------



## Wgibson

Made an impedance jig! After figuring out that the little usb sound card I was using for my imm6 wouldn't work because it only had a mono mic input, I got these results with the computer main soundcard input. Probably messed up the impedance calibration in room eq wizard and can't figure out how to redo it, but oh well, these results seem reasonable.

Knowles SR-31843 with 39 ohm and 4.7uf zobel looks pretty flat to me. 10mm dd from KZ EDX is real flat, as expected. Knowles CI-30120 has a huge spike and exponential increase at 20k, again as expected.

Ignore the left Y scale (no idea?) but impedance is on the right side of the graph. Also ignore my 31020/30120 typo  troubleshooting took me a few beers to get through.

Will be playing with it more this weekend. Fun stuff.


----------



## Wgibson

Apparently the zobel circuit causes impedance to approach the zobel resistor value? So I probably overshot with 39 ohm, and could get the 31843 impedance a little flatter if I used a smaller resistor, 1.25x DC resistance (that exact driver measured 25.8 ohms DCR and 6.0mH, for reference.) So a 33ohm resistor I assume would have been a better choice, and end up with even flatter impedance.

I couldn't find the 31843 impedance curve, but it is a BA so it would have a similar spike/rise to the 30120 shown.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Wgibson said:


> Apparently the zobel circuit causes impedance to approach the zobel resistor value? So I probably overshot with 39 ohm, and could get the 31843 impedance a little flatter if I used a smaller resistor, 1.25x DC resistance (that exact driver measured 25.8 ohms DCR and 6.0mH, for reference.) So a 33ohm resistor I assume would have been a better choice, and end up with even flatter impedance.
> 
> I couldn't find the 31843 impedance curve, but it is a BA so it would have a similar spike/rise to the 30120 shown.


not kinda and sort of yes
i mean you wont approach resistor value exactly and thats not the aim as its 1.25x more 
and also you can even go lower and higher with resistor changes(warning, extreme value can shift frequency response
but also 39ohm is high for SR

also the inductance on that SR is ~6.6mH
so zobel comes out to be approx 6.8uF and 31ohms


----------



## Wgibson

dhruvmeena96 said:


> not kinda and sort of yes
> i mean you wont approach resistor value exactly and thats not the aim as its 1.25x more
> and also you can even go lower and higher with resistor changes(warning, extreme value can shift frequency response
> but also 39ohm is high for SR
> ...



I measured it at 6.0 mH but have a new LCR meter on the way because I don't trust this one, it was cheap and is probably 10 years old. But your numbers sound closer than what I used.

Also interesting to see on the graph how the impedance flattens out at what would be the high pass frequency of a 4.7uf cap and 39ohm load, ~870hz. Makes sense.


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## 528367 (Jan 9, 2021)




----------



## Wgibson

Right on said:


> Yes 868 hz  in theory.
> If you ad resistor the impedance the amplifier sees will be not the same like the resistor you ad .
> 
> As i know for a low pass filter for example if  you add a 20 ohm resistor in series with a cap in parallel  to a 20 ohm speaker then the impedance that amplifier sees will be 40 ohms .
> ...



I will have all my breadboard components by this weekend, so I can check and let you know 

I do still need to research RC low pass filters and L pads to understand them better, but I have a few days for that.


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## 528367 (Jan 7, 2021)




----------



## Aldo40

mattmatt said:


> Congrats on your venture. Would you happen to let us know your company? Would love to follow you on social media.


Thanks for your support, yes a topics will be created on HF soon 

Aldo


----------



## piotrus-g

Aldo40 said:


> Thanks for your support, yes a topics will be created on HF soon
> 
> Aldo


I suggest you first read TOS of head-fi


----------



## Aldo40 (Jan 6, 2021)

piotrus-g said:


> I suggest you first read TOS of head-fi


Hello potrius-g, 

I am asked a question, I answer it.
TOS=forum rules?
if that’s what this is about
 It will be done correctly in the dedicated thread, don’t worry about me it will be done correctly, as I do on TN or elsewhere.
Aldo


----------



## piotrus-g

OK, good to hear. Some of the guys from this threat got banned, for posting pro work, so I just wanted to warn you


----------



## davidmolliere

Well, I am probably the one that is going to start the thread actually 

Since I am also in France I have had the privilege of auditioning two models of @Aldo40 the Bali (really shortly) and then spend some significant time with the prototype of the upcoming Mavericks which I have previewed. I'll share more soon on that.


----------



## Aldo40

piotrus-g said:


> OK, good to hear. Some of the guys from this threat got banned, for posting pro work, so I just wanted to warn you


Thank potrius


----------



## dhruvmeena96

piotrus-g said:


> OK, good to hear. Some of the guys from this threat got banned, for posting pro work, so I just wanted to warn you


i mean, thats what i hate
at least let people start a bit, and once they are successful enough
then apply the rule
way more beneficial

but then, i am not starting anything anytime soon 
so i am safe


----------



## mattmatt

piotrus-g said:


> OK, good to hear. Some of the guys from this threat got banned, for posting pro work, so I just wanted to warn you


Thanks for always reminding us!


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## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Right on said:


> I have found a solution how to connect 4 tubes 1.5 mm each to a 4,7 mm nozzle 😉
> 4,7 mm nozzle with 4 bores 2 mm each  Bore 🙃 I'm not posting the 3d design . I wanted only to share.  Is this a pro work ? I don't want to get banned  😂


Man...... 
That's some next level poking 

Hahahahha

Also
No need to share
We have @stephensynanta16
As you have given us the idea
He will make the shell for us


----------



## Aldo40

Right on said:


> I have found a solution how to connect 4 tubes 1.5 mm each to a 4,7 mm nozzle 😉
> 4,7 mm nozzle with 4 bores 2 mm each  Bore 🙃 I'm not posting the 3d design . I wanted only to share. Is this a pro work ? I don't want to get banned 😂


A professional can give advice or tips if he wishes without being banned

For your history of 4x1.5mm tubes, one of the practices consists of using metal tubes such as piercing tube or medical tube to extend the PVC tube and thus reduce the thickness in the nozzles as here


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## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


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## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


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## Aldo40 (Jan 6, 2021)

this is a method for those who use no printer, Personally I print my 3d shells with tube and integrated chamber so I do not have this problem of having several tubes passed through a nozzle


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## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


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## Aldo40

Right on said:


> I believe this is the biggest problem for most designers in the world using printers or not .
> The diameter of each hole on the surface of the nozzle will effect the sound a lot .
> 
> Im talking about 4 driver design or 3 driver design
> With independent tubes and same diameter from bottom to top without having a 10 mm nozzle


The problem in multiple-driver designs is rather the place they take in the shell.

In 3D design it is easy to integrate 4 holes see more , most designers is limited to 3-4 tubes see extreme cases of 5-6 tubes at spiral ears.

You have for example designs of 8 drivers on two tubes like the VE8, and it works terribly well so anything is possible


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Aldo40 said:


> The problem in multiple-driver designs is rather the place they take in the shell.
> 
> In 3D design it is easy to integrate 4 holes see more , most designers is limited to 3-4 tubes see extreme cases of 5-6 tubes at spiral ears.
> 
> You have for example designs of 8 drivers on two tubes like the VE8, and it works terribly well so anything is possible


2.5mm tube on swfk32254 gives 3.5kHz resonance

And that's how VE8 gets the Pinna on Swfk
Didn't open the iem or anything
Just speculations from me and @senorciem


----------



## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


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## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


----------



## Aldo40

What creates resonances is mostly the tubes. Doing 3D chambers reduces this. The shells are also thicker because there is more material and are therefore less resonant. For the foam not I don’t use foam, a hole is enough to decompress the remaining volume, after you can have closed configurations despite ventilated drivers like Ve8 for example. It depends on the results we want. So we test and then we choose what we think is best. I designed acoustic enclosures where we used a lot of different foam like the alveolar, the dacron see also the.bitumen plates to reduce the standing waves or the.vibration of box but in an EMP it is more insignificant especially if you make 3 D shells with chamber.


----------



## duo8

What are the current go-to builds? I can't find the bellsing 10013 anywhere.


----------



## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


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## Aldo40 (Jan 7, 2021)

Right on said:


> Some questions please.
> On the 2389D the center tap , reduces the impedance ? If yes have anyone measure it ?
> 
> If I use a big resistor value will effect the sound quality ?



yes I already made measurements
Center Tape is a half-coil connection, so half the inductance and half the resistance.
the impedance is divided by 2 and the gain is a little higher than some db.

As we know, impedance increases with frequency. this is something to take into account
when choosing the transition frequency.
there are circuits that linearises impedances like zobel or lpad, on the configuration
proposed by Dhruv, a Lpad on a driver for example sufficed linearized
the impedance of a driver.
LPAD and Zobel are not compulsory circuits, there are severial methods.
then you have to deal with all these proposed solutions, but you can confide in Dhruv he has a very good experience in IEM 
what do you call big resistance? a big value?
I don’t think you have to worry about that if you put a 2 ohms or 10 ohms does not affect the sound, the goal is to adjust it to the rest of your config, and maybe you won’t need it, you will see when designing if it is necessary


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## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


----------



## Aldo40

Right on said:


> Thx for the info.
> Big value i mean 60 ohm and above.
> 
> I ask because I want to make all Drivers play max spl and I will need big value resistors for this .



For the max SPL, it will be necessary to adapt the strongest drivers on the weakest drivers.
A driver can have a given constructor max of 115 db, once filtered or with the damper to eliminate any peak the efficiency will no longer be the same, I take for example a SWFK with 114db max, it will no longer 114db max once in place.
You can’t increase a driver’s performance, you can decrease it.
To increase efficiency, the solution is to double them.
Also take into account that the target total frequency is not linear.


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## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Right on said:


> @Aldo40
> @dhruvmeena96
> 
> How it looks ?
> ...


first get a breadboard and experiment with crosses as those online calculator doesnt take BA specific impedance and its default frequency response in consideration.
if you have a coupler 
i have a suggestion 
measure all the drivers individually(impedance and FR graph on specific tube)
and import it in vituix cad
and then work from there(but this might be hard, to make yourself your own FRD and ZMA files for specific BA)

but then, if this is a fun project, this should work, just check the phase and if something doesnt sound right, invert the phase of the driver and you are ready to go


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## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


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## Aldo40

To extract the ZMA files (impedance curve ) it is done from your impedance measurement hardware example DATS V3 or other. To extract the FRD((SPL curve) measurement files, it is by measuring with your IEC711. A.must recover your FRD and ZMA files, it is necessary to integrate them in vituixcad to simulate your filter. Of course it does not make everything but it allows to leave on good bases


----------



## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


----------



## Aldo40

The software that you use to measure usually offers registration in these formats. Otherwise SPLtool integrated in vituixcad will help you


----------



## Masaikem

Pretty funny


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Right on said:


> I must measure the frequency response ,save it and the change the extension of the file to frd
> And for the impedance,  measure , save and then change the extension to zma ?
> This will work ?


https://toidsdiyaudio.com/2018/01/0...cer-html-2018-01-the-best-frd-and-zma-tracer/

Make an impedance measuring rig and do this




Masaikem said:


> Pretty funny


???????
Atleast quote what's funny bro
We also need a laugh


----------



## Aldo40

Masaikem said:


> Pretty funny


----------



## Wgibson

Driver inside a zobel update, took some impedance measurements with a CI-30120 and Raf-32873 because the numbers worked out pretty well on paper. CI alone, then with regular zobel, then with Raf as the Rz, then zobeled the Raf.

Have not measured frequency response yet, but this should be a functional 2 driver design (or 5 driver, if you did 4 Rafs in 2x2 series/parallel) as the cap inside the CI's zobel would put the Raf at about 330hz high pass filter. And you could mechanically low pass the CI, with small ID/long tube, and/or dampers.

Next step is to get individual driver frequency measurements to see if they are in the right ballpark to play together as far as volume goes.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jan 9, 2021)

Wgibson said:


> Driver inside a zobel update, took some impedance measurements with a CI-30120 and Raf-32873 because the numbers worked out pretty well on paper. CI alone, then with regular zobel, then with Raf as the Rz, then zobeled the Raf.
> 
> Have not measured frequency response yet, but this should be a functional 2 driver design (or 5 driver, if you did 4 Rafs in 2x2 series/parallel) as the cap inside the CI's zobel would put the Raf at about 330hz high pass filter. And you could mechanically low pass the CI, with small ID/long tube, and/or dampers.
> 
> Next step is to get individual driver frequency measurements to see if they are in the right ballpark to play together as far as volume goes.


Next step is to see frequency response and if RAF is causing a dip
Then inverting it's phase or the whole zobel (+ to - side and - to + side).. if it is causing a dip in normal setup


----------



## Wgibson (Jan 9, 2021)

It is workable, could use some help on the high end. The 0.2mm ID brass tube is almost impractically small, but clearly functions as a low pass filter. Maybe just use a short section of it as an orifice, and maintain more of the subbass volume. Lots of physical tweaking to do if I decide to finalize it. This was mostly just for proof of concept, and electrical practice.

The Raf 330hz high pass showed up as pretty much as expected. No cancelation issues either.

Edit: in theory, I could close the gap on low/mid range between the blue and yellow curves, by adjusting the CI tubing.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jan 9, 2021)

Wgibson said:


> It is workable, could use some help on the high end. The 0.2mm ID brass tube is almost impractically small, but clearly functions as a low pass filter. Maybe just use a short section of it as an orifice, and maintain more of the subbass volume. Lots of physical tweaking to do if I decide to finalize it. This was mostly just for proof of concept, and electrical practice.
> 
> The Raf 330hz high pass showed up as pretty much as expected. No cancelation issues either.
> 
> Edit: in theory, I could close the gap on low/mid range between the blue and yellow curves, by adjusting the CI tubing.


What I will do is heavily damp CI with two yellow first


----------



## Wgibson (Jan 10, 2021)

I have some dampers in the mail, the benefit of smaller brass tubes is easy fit into the nozzle. And cost, 1 foot of small brass tube costs less than a pair of dampers. But I haven't listened yet, could be other issues.

Could be other advantages too, regarding previous discussion in the thread about 3d printing a spiral tube shape, similar to the se846 manifold, maybe you could coil the brass on the outside of a PVC tube to get extra length.

Edit: I may put a SR-6438 in there instead of the Raf, that could be an interesting cheap-ish basshead set up. I have 4 pairs of the Raf and want to do something a little more reasonable with them. Not worth using up the Rafs unless I add another driver(s) for a boost on the top end, and I need to get more finished projects under my belt before I go that complex.

The SR-6438 is a little more sensitive than the Raf, which will be good because the CI is relatively loud. 25 ohm SR vs 22 Raf, may mess up the impedance a bit but it should still be pretty flat.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Wgibson said:


> I have some dampers in the mail, the benefit of smaller brass tubes is easy fit into the nozzle. And cost, 1 foot of small brass tube costs less than a pair of dampers. But I haven't listened yet, could be other issues.
> 
> Could be other advantages too, regarding previous discussion in the thread about 3d printing a spiral tube shape, similar to the se846 manifold, maybe you could coil the brass on the outside of a PVC tube to get extra length.
> 
> ...


i said to damp CI, so you can get harman style bass shelf and then some optimization afterwards will make it really sound flagship level nice


----------



## HenacanPodwell (Jan 10, 2021)

Hello everyone, I am trying to cross 1audio 31736 at 10khz, i have tried many series capacitor and the best I could get is with 0.11uf which gives me this graph, and the SPL is crazy low. However, what I would like is to only have frequency above 10k,, is there anyway I could do this? Would love it if someone can guide me to the right path. Thanks ! 
Edit: Picture added.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

HenacanPodwell said:


> Hello everyone, I am trying to cross 1audio 31736 at 10khz, i have tried many series capacitor and the best I could get is with 0.11uf which gives me this graph, and the SPL is crazy low. However, what I would like is to only have frequency above 10k,, is there anyway I could do this? Would love it if someone can guide me to the right path. Thanks !


Add a bigger cap and control resist it.
There would be many combos but you have to do it

Smaller single caps also limits power transfer, so they might have lower distortion, but they also get a load of dB loss.

If it was sharp cutoff, then you might have got some efficiency, but it's hard to implement in iem


----------



## HenacanPodwell

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Add a bigger cap and control resist it.
> There would be many combos but you have to do it
> 
> Smaller single caps also limits power transfer, so they might have lower distortion, but they also get a load of dB loss.
> ...


Thank you for the reply!
What do you mean by control resist it? I tried bigger series capacitor, but it has a lot of 7 to 8k, and it makes it really sharp, i only wants the treble after 10k.
Also I just realized that i forgot to include the picture of the graph! Silly me.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

HenacanPodwell said:


> Thank you for the reply!
> What do you mean by control resist it? I tried bigger series capacitor, but it has a lot of 7 to 8k, and it makes it really sharp, i only wants the treble after 10k.
> Also I just realized that i forgot to include the picture of the graph! Silly me.


Hmmmm
Having bigger cap will cause you to have those peaks.

Ok here is my suggestion

Run swfk on fullrange and first adjust tube lenght and ID in such a way, that most of peaks and dip are mostly sorted(shifting peaks to comfortable region).

Bigger lengh tube shifts the peaks to right
Smaller lenght tube shifts peak to left.
Also, there is tube resonances, so as you increase tube lenght, the tube resonances make the peak shifting to right of frequency response graph starts to rise and maximum gain happens when BA natural peak coincides with resonance shift and tube resonance.

So here is my suggestion
Which might work perfectly for you

First adjust the tweeter tube lenght on fullrange. (2mm ID)
Then turn this tube into stepped horn consisting 1mm, 1.5mm and 2mm

Then try crossing it

Try to shift resonances to higher octaves


----------



## HenacanPodwell

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Hmmmm
> Having bigger cap will cause you to have those peaks.
> 
> Ok here is my suggestion
> ...


Thank you for the swift reply! I see, I will try it out tomorrow as its getting late here. Another question, for dual drivers like 2389d, do i only need to solder one terminal of a ba or do i have to solder both of them? What about drivers like 30017? Thank you!


----------



## dhruvmeena96

HenacanPodwell said:


> Thank you for the swift reply! I see, I will try it out tomorrow as its getting late here. Another question, for dual drivers like 2389d, do i only need to solder one terminal of a ba or do i have to solder both of them? What about drivers like 30017? Thank you!


It's a choice..

I always solder wire on both BA of 2389 and then do any kind of series or parallel

For twfk 30017
I snip of the pre done wire

And seperate wbfk and FK

And then use it

Makes life easier as there are some situation where you need to reverse only one driver phase or you need very complex crossover on one specific driver


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## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Right on said:


> Huge role plays the output impedance of your amplifier.  Output impedance must be under 1 ohm.
> 2.2 uf is good  I guess.
> then place it as near as possible to the nozzle with 10mm tube length.


Just add resistor
And then cross it


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## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


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## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Right on said:


> One cap is enough I believe. One cap 2.2 uf is the lowest you can go and is the standard for the most  tweeters .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


i even use 470nF on some iem 
and even 0.1uF

ir depends on the application
for me 2.2uF is very high and i use 1uF and bellow that


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## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Right on said:


> I have never tried it.
> I don't know. For me 2.2 is the lowest .
> I will try 1uf and below to a 2354. I will test it later with my ears  .  🙂


2354 and 2389 are not tweeter. they are fullrange driver with emphasis on uppermid
for tweeter, you have wbfk and swfk

for 2389, i do 2.2uF Center tap to get my pinnae region correct, the fundamental first peak at 3kHz)
but i do this when i have seperate mid region(100Hz to 1kHz) and proper subwoofer/woofer driver)


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## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


----------



## HenacanPodwell

What does series inductor does? Never used inductor but it seems that quite some big companies use them. And with inductor as rc low pass it does not add resistance.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Right on said:


> The 2389 is also a tweeter and that's for sure .
> The 2389 is made as a tweeter.
> 
> The 2354 has also very good treble . See datasheet.
> ...


man, ok
in iem

below 200Hz - its a woofer/subwoofer
from 100Hz to 1kHz- its midrange
from 1kHz to 5/6kHz - its uppermid(sonion 2389)
from 6kHz and above - its tweeter
from 10kHz and above - its supertweeter

this is not speaker, because in iem you have to compensate the pinna loss(the sound dont interact with our outer ear which boost the region of ~3kHz in iem). Thats why its classified as uppermid(you can classify it as tweeter for your own preference but this tweet thing might confuse other as it confused me)

technically when you see harman curve or any other curve(you see 3kHz boosted) uppermid, most of people here classify it as Uppermid or pinnae region


----------



## dhruvmeena96

HenacanPodwell said:


> What does series inductor does? Never used inductor but it seems that quite some big companies use them. And with inductor as rc low pass it does not add resistance.


low pass
but the Henry value is so low, i think its only for very minor fine-tuning and nothing else
i cannot consider it as a definite part of the crossover


----------



## HenacanPodwell

dhruvmeena96 said:


> low pass
> but the Henry value is so low, i think its only for very minor fine-tuning and nothing else
> i cannot consider it as a definite part of the crossover


I see! Since i have been seeing ue doing series inductor and series resistance, so I have been wondering that.


----------



## tomekk

dhruvmeena96 said:


> i cannot consider it as a definite part of the crossover



I confirm this, when adding an inductor to the crossover not much happens on the frequency, a small drop of 2-3 decibels on graph. Only the impedance graph in my config started to ripple. It looked funny up/down constantly.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Ohhh by the way
This thread is 12 years old now.
Might be the longest lasting thread so far


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## Wgibson (Jan 12, 2021)

Can you currently get sonion E25 or E50 anywhere? Did they stop making them?

Edit: adding random thought: anyone used gutted TWS shells for wired projects? Lots of room in there for BA's...


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Wgibson said:


> Can you currently get sonion E25 or E50 anywhere? Did they stop making them?
> 
> Edit: adding random thought: anyone used gutted TWS shells for wired projects? Lots of room in there for BA's...


they are still making them and its hiding somewhere in the dark corner inside the basement of sonion warehouse
its hard to get sonion 4100 , 4400 and E series


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## Wgibson

dhruvmeena96 said:


> they are still making them and its hiding somewhere in the dark corner inside the basement of sonion warehouse
> its hard to get sonion 4100 , 4400 and E series



I guess we just wait and see if a reseller purchases some for low quantity sales.


----------



## tomekk

Wgibson said:


> Can you currently get sonion E25 or E50 anywhere? Did they stop making them?
> 
> Edit: adding random thought: anyone used gutted TWS shells for wired projects? Lots of room in there for BA's...



Only one guy in the world sell E25. Check yoycart shop.


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## Wgibson

Re-did the CI-30120 brass tube measurements because they weren't sitting right in my head. Turns out I must have had a leak before on my driver inside zobel tests, with the big volume difference in the low end. Here is 0.6mm ID vs 0.2mm ID, both tubes about 25mm long and this time I made sure they were sealed well with tack.

Looks like a nice cheap and easy physical low pass solution for solid subbass with good rolloff to 1k and up. Not to get my hopes up too much, but that curve looks strikingly similar to a sonion 38d1xj007, for about 10% of the cost. Surely won't sound as good, but on paper...

Bonus, it will be extremely easy to package inside a nozzle, this 0.2mm ID 0.6mm OD tube is TINY. So as long as you have shell room to fit the driver itself, should be good to go.

Comparison curve, and 0.2mm ID tube pictured. You are looking at the thin side of the CI, other side is about 3x as wide.






Spoiler


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## Luffytaro (May 5, 2021)

Wgibson said:


> Can you currently get sonion E25 or E50 anywhere? Did they stop making them?
> 
> Edit: adding random thought: anyone used gutted TWS shells for wired projects? Lots of room in there for BA's...





tomekk said:


> Only one guy in the world sell E25. Check yoycart shop.


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## Luffytaro (Jan 14, 2021)

How to post picture here?


----------



## Aldo40

Luffytaro said:


> How to post picture here?


exemple
https://www.casimages.com/


----------



## Luffytaro




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## Luffytaro (May 5, 2021)

Luffytaro said:


> I have 26-E25WT02/9, do you want to buy it?
> 
> I have 26-E25WT02/9 and trying to build.


----------



## AMerePerson

Luffytaro said:


>


I think the person was asking about the E25ST001/D, E25ST002/D, and/or the E50DT0005/D.


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## dhruvmeena96

AMerePerson said:


> I think the person was asking about the E25ST001/D, E25ST002/D, and/or the E50DT0005/D.





Luffytaro said:


>


Only the tweeter part
Otherwise he might have to disassemble the driver


----------



## Wgibson

Yeah, thanks but looking for just the tweeter. And I live in the US so depending on price, it may not make sense to try to ship to me. Really they just look a little better than a 30095 so I was interested, but I have some 30095's ill try out first.

I looked up the datasheet and those seem like a good full range solution by themselves, maybe you just try to make a small earbud style, use foam or mesh filter on the nozzle if needed.


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## Luffytaro

Hi all, after take impression out of silicone mold, the paraffin which I use to coat on impression is broken and stuck inside mold. Any one are same issue and how to solve it?


----------



## Bassiklee

Blow it out with compressed air,  carefully pick it out with tweezers.


----------



## justsomesonyfan (Jan 18, 2021)

audiophileeee said:


> Hello team
> does anyone tried made some diy ATM earphones?
> like "Project Heaven" on AMT driver (Air Motion Transformer technology)?


@dhruvmeena96 i'm getting a pair of these soon, traded for them, altho they can be purchased for around 1.3k euro iirc.

edit - the hybrid ones, dd/amt black/gold pair.


----------



## BigBublik

I want to make hybrid CIEM.
I like sound in my GK-31732 but i have more bass and more textured bass. I think use TWFK for tweeter and dynamic driver for woofer.
And i have some questions:
1. Crossover. Which i need to use?
2. Driver. I want to buy Sony MH755 or MH750 and extract dynamic driver. Or are there better options?


----------



## Wgibson

General question, which do you finalize first? Assuming you're happy with circuit design and preliminary frequency response measurements.

Do you finalize physical stuff like attaching and gluing tubing, dampers, verify fit in shell.

Or do you do all the wiring first? And risk having to rework or damaging something as you try to get it packed in a shell after it is wired?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

justsomesonyfan said:


> @dhruvmeena96 i'm getting a pair of these soon, traded for them, altho they can be purchased for around 1.3k euro iirc.
> 
> edit - the hybrid ones, dd/amt black/gold pair.


too expensive for my poor heart
but still thumbs up


----------



## mattmatt

Wgibson said:


> General question, which do you finalize first? Assuming you're happy with circuit design and preliminary frequency response measurements.
> 
> Do you finalize physical stuff like attaching and gluing tubing, dampers, verify fit in shell.
> 
> Or do you do all the wiring first? And risk having to rework or damaging something as you try to get it packed in a shell after it is wired?


I attach my tubing first so there's less stress on the solder tabs when handling them. 

I now also do "wiring harness" 2nd. From the socket to the crossover components then solder it to the drivers with the tubes.


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## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Right on said:


> Jh audio and some other companies they talking in the internet about phase acoustic cancellation and big dips in the frequency response.
> 
> To be honest I would love to make my iem with a phase issue and a big dip at 200 hz.
> 
> ...


it affects impedance so no


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## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


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## Wgibson

Right on said:


> Yes i know,
> you are right.
> My question wasn't clear.
> Ι wanted to lower a bit the volume of the 2 38D1XJ00.
> And with a second order crossover this isn't possible i believe.



Something wrong with just a resistor in series? Or just use one, were you able to test fitting all that in a shell yet?


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## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Right on said:


> Yes i know,
> you are right.
> My question wasn't clear.
> Ι wanted to lower a bit the volume of the 2 38D1XJ00.
> And with a second order crossover this isn't possible i believe.


by how much and also where do you wanna cross
you can use lpad with 38D1xJ and its subwoofer like enough to avoid crossover


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## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


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## Wgibson

Guess I need to work on testing drivers without soldering, don't want to solder to a driver twice if I can avoid it. I have multimeter tweezer leads (for checking surface mount components) so I could try just manually holding those to the driver solder pads while measuring.


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## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Right on said:


> I'm very confused at this moment with all this components because I believe they can worsen the sound quality if I do something wrong .
> 
> Imagine i can fit 2 x 38D1XJ00  , 1 x 2389D and 1 x EST65QB02  in soundlinks shell  which is medium size shell.
> It depends the skills .


first of all
https://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/crossovers

all you read about crossover and crossover damaging the sound is 90% hoax
if you can adjust phase and impedance
crossover have a huge advantage
a ceramic capacitor wont worsen the sound
neither a metal film resistor

the 10% truth about crossover damaging the sound quality is wasted energy in heat from these component
or capacitor peizo effect

bro, we have technically done everything here in this thread

and a properly designed system offers way less IMD(to the level of none), way better transient and impulse and the only con is just very minute signal lost on component, which can be compensated with increasing the volume
plus, resistor, inductor and caps behave as linear instead of non linear devices

i can go on and on.

components dont make sound worse, its the application


----------



## Wgibson

Big capacitor can high pass the 2389D at 200hz if you want, and you could damp or use small diameter tubing to further low pass the 38D1XJ physically


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## dhruvmeena96 (Jan 19, 2021)

Right on said:


> I want to pull out the low frequencies from the 2389D
> and make a low pass filter for the 38D1XJ00 at 200 hz


actually high pass 2389D series with 47uF
use damper as per taste

and Lpad 38D1XJ with 4.7ohm series parallel
control series resistor to control loudness
add dampers to change and merge the shelf point

and if you are still worried about worsening of sound
get one nP0 ceramic capacitor of super low value(nano farads)

and parallel it with 47uF
this act as a bypass capacitor and nP0 is the best capacitor possible and is used computers for signal integrity.

or if you want to add some musicallity and distortion

go with audiophile electrolyte capacitor and parallel it with nP0
it looks good inside iem too

pyschoacoustic effect


----------



## musmecca

Wgibson said:


> General question, which do you finalize first? Assuming you're happy with circuit design and preliminary frequency response measurements.
> 
> Do you finalize physical stuff like attaching and gluing tubing, dampers, verify fit in shell.
> 
> Or do you do all the wiring first? And risk having to rework or damaging something as you try to get it packed in a shell after it is wired?


1. I always wire drivers first on a vice, no tubes, as this is critical and requires a stable platform.  
2. I attach tubes next.
3. I wire everything together including socket and crossover. 
4. I then test output and FR, recognizing it isn't tweaked until it's in the shell. Sometimes I install dampers here.
5. I already have my faceplates and shells drilled and prepped. Depending on the finish, sometimes I attach the faceplates with no electronics and finish edges, dip in laq 3, then simply razor the face back off to receive electronics.
6. Install everything....note I incorporate strain relief (simply glue litz to BA's) and test 1 more time before buttoning up. 
7. With extra tube sticking out of bore, I bondic in place...then simply cut tubes flush. Faceplate reattached.
8. Final test then final light lac 3.


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## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


----------



## musmecca

My build from yesterday...SR and Sonion 38 build...quite flat I'd say! Eagle eyes will see how I handled mounting the SR's!


----------



## Wgibson (Jan 19, 2021)

Nice, I am working on CI and SR now, the SR seems to like some open space in front (otherwise highs get reduced using tubes) so I am using a cheap 10mm dd shell.

I also tried peeling off the foil orifice on the front of the SR, but that had no benefit, and reduced 10k+ response.

Edit: I had to reverse phase on the SR, how did you wire it with the 38?


----------



## musmecca

Wgibson said:


> Nice, I am working on CI and SR now, the SR seems to like some open space in front (otherwise highs get reduced using tubes) so I am using a cheap 10mm dd shell.
> 
> I also tried peeling off the foil orifice on the front of the SR, but that had no benefit, and reduced 10k+ response.
> 
> Edit: I had to reverse phase on the SR, how did you wire it with the 38?


I wired them in parallel. SR had a 20 ohm resistor, sonion 38 had a 30 ohm resistor. I used a 1mm Id on the sonion, about 40+mm long, no damper. The SR was placed in heat shrink tubing..protect the wires! Once close to shrunk, I inserted my 2mm x 10 tube and glued into place. As you mentioned, I inserted the tube but not up to the face of the sr...there is purposefully some gap. Damper is white.


----------



## Wgibson

Got a few cheap sonion drivers on taobao that I couldn't find datasheets for, checked impedance, and frequency response from an imm6, both with a short piece of 1mm tube and some tack to seal:




Neither look great, taken at the same volume setting on my sound card FWIW. The 20x53 has a decent curve shape but sub bass rolls off, the 23x62/3 looks hard to drive and not much on the top end, not going to beat out a knowles rab or raf based on just looking at the graph. But might have their place in a multi driver setup. Anyway, in case you were curious about those, there it is.


----------



## Wgibson

musmecca said:


> I wired them in parallel. SR had a 20 ohm resistor, sonion 38 had a 30 ohm resistor. I used a 1mm Id on the sonion, about 40+mm long, no damper. The SR was placed in heat shrink tubing..protect the wires! Once close to shrunk, I inserted my 2mm x 10 tube and glued into place. As you mentioned, I inserted the tube but not up to the face of the sr...there is purposefully some gap. Damper is white.



2 comments about the SR:

1) I posted a little while back about heat shrinking to it directly, with graphs showing how heat affected the frequency response. Since then I heat a section of tube alone, trim it, and insert the SR driver, to avoid heating the driver. Just have to find the right size heat shrink tube that is a tight fit at full diameter.

2) The CI/SR I am working on has the SR as the zobel resistor which high passes it about 300hz due to the CI's zobel cap, and the SR also has its own zobel, so impedance is very flat. Just a thought if you do another similar build in the future. CI is electrically full range but with very small 0.2mm ID tube as physical low pass, graphs look promising. I still have to finish it still so we'll see how it sounds.


----------



## mattmatt

I just glue on tubes on the SR with no problems at all!  Same me time.


----------



## Aldo40 (Jan 20, 2021)

Wgibson said:


> . CI is electrically full range but with very small 0.2mm ID tube as physical low pass, graphs look promising. I still have to finish it still so we'll see how it sounds.



Exact,  0.5-0,2mm IDx 20mm long makes an extra low pass 
At the end of the tube a small piece of tube of 1mm IDx1-2mm long should be added to facilitate the cleaning of dirt because 0.2 mm can quickly be closed.
they don’t go as far in extrem bass as the 38 Dx1 but they look more tense in bass medium


----------



## Luffytaro

Hi all, I am trying to build my shell, Anyone used Nice-fit glue and it work well or not? Is it REACH-ROSH glue?  Too less infomation on internet. Thanks


----------



## musmecca

dhruvmeena96 said:


> actually high pass 2389D series with 47uF
> use damper as per taste
> 
> and Lpad 38D1XJ with 4.7ohm series parallel
> ...


So I fully understand the psychoacoustic effect, I'll run the 47UF to the center tap of a2389D as normal.  On either leg I use (depending upon phase) i'll put a very small cap...nano farads. This will give more soudstage? I assume it puts the phase off slightly and that is what gives this effect? I assume this can be done on practically any driver, but is this technique more suited to HF vs Low Frequency?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

musmecca said:


> So I fully understand the psychoacoustic effect, I'll run the 47UF to the center tap of a2389D as normal.  On either leg I use (depending upon phase) i'll put a very small cap...nano farads. This will give more soudstage? I assume it puts the phase off slightly and that is what gives this effect? I assume this can be done on practically any driver, but is this technique more suited to HF vs Low Frequency?


It doesn't do anything
Technically, this technique was made for low performing electrolyte and how to make them signal stable, so old peeps use to add bypass capacitor.

Audiophiles in speaker world think that it sounds like expensive capacitor (I don't know where they get these thing from.... These cap sound topic). Well on measurement simulation done on speaker, it does lower higher order distortion by 0.02% amount only


----------



## mattmatt

Hey guys, 

Just wondering if you guys know where to get those switches like what limears uses? Been looking for it for awhile but haven't seen anything similar. I think it's a SPST toggle switch. Any heads up will be deeply appreciated.


----------



## Aldo40 (Jan 21, 2021)

Probably sonion SW 96


----------



## Wgibson

CI-30120 with SR-31843 inside the zobel, also zobel on the SR. Take a guess which one I soldered first :/



Spoiler


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Wgibson said:


> CI-30120 with SR-31843 inside the zobel, also zobel on the SR. Take a guess which one I soldered first :/
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler


Technically

For all other members

Zobelception is a crossover, where you have to carefully choose driver to have a zobel cap which crosses the other driver, and this other driver, flattens the impedance graph respectively.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Wgibson said:


> CI-30120 with SR-31843 inside the zobel, also zobel on the SR. Take a guess which one I soldered first :/
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler


Heavily damp the CI(one yellow and another damper according to you), so that so, where SR cross happens, the CI merges there.

By the way
You could have added swfk or wbfk inside SR zobel
And made it a 3 way

Also, the advantage I saw in this design was that amp was only pushing power in accordance to CI with zobel

But in actual, that power is split up between drivers

Rather than, variable impedance and electrical phase iem where we don't know what's happening in power distribution

I have tried RAB + WBFK and it sounds very nice


----------



## Wgibson

Limited room in this shell, and wanted to get it finalized before I make something more complicated. CI is damped with 0.2mm ID brass tube, and I will probably end up with some foam in the nozzle to round out the SR peaks.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Wgibson said:


> Limited room in this shell, and wanted to get it finalized before I make something more complicated. CI is damped with 0.2mm ID brass tube, and I will probably end up with some foam in the nozzle to round out the SR peaks.


I forgot about brass tube 
Nice
Brass adds ridgitiy also.
About SR.. I think grey or white because that's your main mid and tweeter

But then choose your poison on damping


----------



## mattmatt

Aldo40 said:


> Probably sonion SW 96


Exactly that! Still, no idea where to get a few units only. Thanks for the info tho!  


Wgibson said:


> CI-30120 with SR-31843 inside the zobel, also zobel on the SR. Take a guess which one I soldered first :/
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler


What SR is that? Wouldn't that combination lack treble too much?


----------



## MISHKA2020

Hi guys. 
I need help. Sometimes I have a problem with finishing a faceplate.  I use lack 3. I get small bubbles.  No way to fix them.  If I lacquering it twice, it all goes to hell.  Why do they appear?  How to solve it?  Thanks!


----------



## Aldo40

MISHKA2020 said:


> Hi guys.
> I need help. Sometimes I have a problem with finishing a faceplate.  I use lack 3. I get small bubbles.  No way to fix them.  If I lacquering it twice, it all goes to hell.  Why do they appear?  How to solve it?  Thanks!


.
The Pin holes are often the cause of fatty or dusty parts, so use gloves because our fingers can leave fat or try to work in a room without too much dust. Fine sanding is required, example with P220-320, then thoroughly clean the shell surface with isopro alcohol and then pass the lake3 and let it stretch for a few seconds , if there are still pin holes forming, it is sometimes necessary to make a second pass. Then UV treatment about 10 minutes


----------



## mattmatt

MISHKA2020 said:


> Hi guys.
> I need help. Sometimes I have a problem with finishing a faceplate.  I use lack 3. I get small bubbles.  No way to fix them.  If I lacquering it twice, it all goes to hell.  Why do they appear?  How to solve it?  Thanks!


This is one of the reason why I switched to airbrushing hahahah! 

Anyway, like what Aldo40 said, always sand before lacquering. I use 240 for this then I also pass it with a dremel abrasive wheel. I also clean it really well with IPA to a squeaky clean finish then blow it with compressed air too to ensure that I have no dust before applying the lacquer.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Also guys

I have given up on making notes on resonator
It has lots of variability
I mean, the point where Helmholtz resonator opening meets at tube, also effects the damping schema

Only one guy can teach you
@piotrus-g sensei

Because it's not just resonator by calculation, but the shape and size effect the dampening power 
And also the specific distance(perpendicular to tube) on tube
Also effect the coverage pattern

Da boi doesn't want to do it

Second

Inductor has a very big problem
It restricts the last octave region on treble
And doesn't do much
And I don't like restricting my air or you can say last octave

I want the driver to let loose


----------



## musmecca

MISHKA2020 said:


> Hi guys.
> I need help. Sometimes I have a problem with finishing a faceplate.  I use lack 3. I get small bubbles.  No way to fix them.  If I lacquering it twice, it all goes to hell.  Why do they appear?  How to solve it?  Thanks!


Mattmatt and Aldo40 hit the high points...make sure it's clean, sanded, and washed with alcohol. I do one other thing. I dip mine, then put them on a clamped motor to spin for 5 minutes before I cure.  This allows the laq to flow and smooth out, but it also allows bubbles to rise to the top. I simply pop them with a pin and let them continue to rotate until smooth. Bubbles are caused by dirt, dust etc as described above...but also VOIDS in the surface hold air until laq is applied.....the air pockets are simply trying to rise. I'd also caution on extended cure time with laq 3...anything over 3 minutes and you risk yellowing.


----------



## musmecca

mattmatt said:


> This is one of the reason why I switched to airbrushing hahahah!
> 
> Anyway, like what Aldo40 said, always sand before lacquering. I use 240 for this then I also pass it with a dremel abrasive wheel. I also clean it really well with IPA to a squeaky clean finish then blow it with compressed air too to ensure that I have no dust before applying the lacquer.


Matt, do you spray and let sit, rotate, or simply straight into the chamber? Evaluating if I want to jump into spraying.....


----------



## mattmatt

musmecca said:


> Mattmatt and Aldo40 hit the high points...make sure it's clean, sanded, and washed with alcohol. I do one other thing. I dip mine, then put them on a clamped motor to spin for 5 minutes before I cure.  This allows the laq to flow and smooth out, but it also allows bubbles to rise to the top. I simply pop them with a pin and let them continue to rotate until smooth. Bubbles are caused by dirt, dust etc as described above...but also VOIDS in the surface hold air until laq is applied.....the air pockets are simply trying to rise. I'd also caution on extended cure time with laq 3...anything over 3 minutes and you risk yellowing.


Exactly the points about lacquer! Having a perfect finish from lacquer is one of the hardest thing to master actually. Seems a no brainier but not at all. With the curing times, it actually depends on your light. I can cure mine at 5 mins with no problem at all  

I still let it rotate for a few minutes but a lot less compared to brushing. The hardest part to be perfect is the faceplate, am I right? If not applied properly, lumps and uneven surface will develop, hence rotating it but with spraying, it's a lot less time since it already evened out by itself.


----------



## musmecca

mattmatt said:


> Exactly the points about lacquer! Having a perfect finish from lacquer is one of the hardest thing to master actually. Seems a no brainier but not at all. With the curing times, it actually depends on your light. I can cure mine at 5 mins with no problem at all
> 
> I still let it rotate for a few minutes but a lot less compared to brushing. The hardest part to be perfect is the faceplate, am I right? If not applied properly, lumps and uneven surface will develop, hence rotating it but with spraying, it's a lot less time since it already evened out by itself.


Do you mind sharing what your spray rig is?  You can message me if you don't want to publish...


----------



## Wgibson

mattmatt said:


> Exactly that! Still, no idea where to get a few units only. Thanks for the info tho!
> 
> What SR is that? Wouldn't that combination lack treble too much?



1) Search sonion VE6XC on taobao, they are a little expensize. You could also look for 1.27mm dip switches, those are cheap and easy to get from anywhere.

2) That is the model, SR-31843. It looks electrically the same as 32453 but is not vented (less bass.) Yes it will be a little light on treble, but this is a $25 project, trying some new things and building up skills before taking on more complex stuff.


----------



## mattmatt

musmecca said:


> Do you mind sharing what your spray rig is?  You can message me if you don't want to publish...


Using a Badger 150 and a small airbrush compressor. Would probably upgrade to a Patriot. The original thought with the 150 is use a glass jar for the container, fill it with the lacquer and cap it off once done but found out that the lacquer will oxidize and turn yellowish. Lacquer can be used directly but I have an additive for better spraying.


----------



## Aldo40 (Jan 23, 2021)

musmecca said:


> Mattmatt and Aldo40 hit the high points...make sure it's clean, sanded, and washed with alcohol. I do one other thing. I dip mine, then put them on a clamped motor to spin for 5 minutes before I cure.  This allows the laq to flow and smooth out, but it also allows bubbles to rise to the top. I simply pop them with a pin and let them continue to rotate until smooth. Bubbles are caused by dirt, dust etc as described above...but also VOIDS in the surface hold air until laq is applied.....the air pockets are simply trying to rise. I'd also caution on extended cure time with laq 3...anything over 3 minutes and you risk yellowing.


Hi musmecca
thanks for the accuracy

I forgot this; I leave the engine running for about 2-3 minutes, then I turn on the UV machine and it keeps running for 10 minutes
My machine is not very beautiful but it works wonderfully


----------



## MISHKA2020

Oh thank you all guys.  I know I can always count on you!  I may not have sharpened well, and I also touched with my bare fingers.  I'll fix it.  Cheers 😁

Edit:

It's much beter when i use 320 sand. Till now i was using 800 and more. And i also using isopropanol in spray bottle. Now i spray on faceplate and first thing you can se are there bubbles or not. Even if it's not lack. If they come, i'm sanding again. Faceplate is the hardest to do like @mattmatt said. 
Especially if it's flat.  That’s why I always put resin at the end to make a small dome.  So the lack follows and becomes flatter. 

Once again, tnx guys.  I will definitely try to spray lack in the future.  It seems simpler and of better quality.





mattmatt said:


> This is one of the reason why I switched to airbrushing hahahah!
> 
> Anyway, like what Aldo40 said, always sand before lacquering. I use 240 for this then I also pass it with a dremel abrasive wheel. I also clean it really well with IPA to a squeaky clean finish then blow it with compressed air too to ensure that I have no dust before applying the lacquer.




Thank you


----------



## Aldo40

What is important in the varnish is the preparation of the face. These are not techniques specific to the IEM, it is the basis of the varnishing.

I make surfboards and it is similar to the level of preparation, a gloss will be very beautiful if a topcoat is well sanded and clean.

I varnish with the brush and lake3 only and I do not need to touch up, it is a perfect mirror:

Watch this video of unique Melody, the method is the same:


----------



## piotrus-g

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Also guys
> 
> I have given up on making notes on resonator
> It has lots of variability
> ...


Hahaha, lol. Definitely lots of variables and there are some tricks to it and unfortunately I cannot say more


----------



## mattmatt

Aldo40 said:


> What is important in the varnish is the preparation of the face. These are not techniques specific to the IEM, it is the basis of the varnishing.
> 
> I make surfboards and it is similar to the level of preparation, a gloss will be very beautiful if a topcoat is well sanded and clean.
> 
> ...



Hi, i quite don't understand. What do you mean by surfboard?


----------



## Aldo40 (Jan 24, 2021)

mattmatt said:


> Hi, i quite don't understand. What do you mean by surfboard?



I was talking about the steps of sanding and varnish on resin whether acrylic, polyester or epoxi, it is the same process on surfboards, lutherie, automobiles etc.. IEM simply replicates known finishing techniques in other areas.


----------



## Aldo40

There is also the solution of soaked entirely the intra in the varnish as do earsonics but I do not recommend it for those who do not often because you have to be sure to have the bores and the connector well waterproof and of course have a closed shell and not ventilated. We can see the manipulation at the end of this video


----------



## Aldo40 (Jan 25, 2021)

.


----------



## duo8

So I messed up and ended up wasting half of the mold silicone. The syringe I used also had too short of a nozzle.
I used 7g (each) here but next time I'll probably use 5g. I wanted to make a full ear impression (like what 64 audio would require) but it seems too difficult to do by myself.
The place I bought this from said the silicone hardens after 5 mins, but I noticed it only fully hardens after 12 mins or so.
I attached a few pics of the impression. Does it look usable?


----------



## ForceMajeure

duo8 said:


> So I messed up and ended up wasting half of the mold silicone. The syringe I used also had too short of a nozzle.
> I used 7g (each) here but next time I'll probably use 5g. I wanted to make a full ear impression (like what 64 audio would require) but it seems too difficult to do by myself.
> The place I bought this from said the silicone hardens after 5 mins, but I noticed it only fully hardens after 12 mins or so.
> I attached a few pics of the impression. Does it look usable?



These aren't good enough for deep fit. Your canal lacks material. the cymba also look like it's lacking a bit, although you could get away with that. When you take impressions you should make sure that you don't take out the syringe out of your ear canal before the material starts to come out from there. You should insert as much material as you can and then slowly move out.


----------



## duo8

ForceMajeure said:


> These aren't good enough for deep fit. Your canal lacks material. the cymba also look like it's lacking a bit, although you could get away with that. When you take impressions you should make sure that you don't take out the syringe out of your ear canal before the material starts to come out from there. You should insert as much material as you can and then slowly move out.


Does the syringe have to reach deep into the canal for the material to go in far enough?
The one I'm using has a short (1cm) tip/nozzle.


----------



## MISHKA2020

duo8 said:


> So I messed up and ended up wasting half of the mold silicone. The syringe I used also had too short of a nozzle.
> I used 7g (each) here but next time I'll probably use 5g. I wanted to make a full ear impression (like what 64 audio would require) but it seems too difficult to do by myself.
> The place I bought this from said the silicone hardens after 5 mins, but I noticed it only fully hardens after 12 mins or so.
> I attached a few pics of the impression. Does it look usable?



Sorry but i don't recomand you to use that. Top of earcanal on impression is not useful. I guess you saw on the you tube a guy who using syringe. Buy from AliExpress original for 11$. Use this impresions only for practice to make final shape and dipping into wax. And that part requires a certain skill trust me! About impression material, you got two components. A and B (activator and base) if you want faster hardnes, use more of A (activator).  Maybe I didn't understand you ... If you just need molds to send to Audio 64, go to a hearing aid store and ask them nicely to take your earmolds.  At least that's what I did the first time.  Good luck 😊


----------



## JEHL

Is it viable to use a universal metal housing for a home made IEM? Would this bear no advantage over resin ones custom or otherwise?


----------



## ForceMajeure

duo8 said:


> Does the syringe have to reach deep into the canal for the material to go in far enough?
> The one I'm using has a short (1cm) tip/nozzle.



Take notes from that vid 

Regarding the material hardening time. it also depends on the ambient temperature and how old or new the material is as well as the ratio of mixture.


----------



## duo8

MISHKA2020 said:


> Sorry but i don't recomand you to use that. Top of earcanal on impression is not useful. I guess you saw on the you tube a guy who using syringe. Buy from AliExpress original for 11$. Use this impresions only for practice to make final shape and dipping into wax. And that part requires a certain skill trust me! About impression material, you got two components. A and B (activator and base) if you want faster hardnes, use more of A (activator).  Maybe I didn't understand you ... If you just need molds to send to Audio 64, go to a hearing aid store and ask them nicely to take your earmolds.  At least that's what I did the first time.  Good luck 😊


Too late to buy anything now...
I modified the syringe to have a 12.8mm nozzle (was 8mm before). Hope it goes better this time.


----------



## Luffytaro

Aldo40 said:


> What is important in the varnish is the preparation of the face. These are not techniques specific to the IEM, it is the basis of the varnishing.
> 
> I make surfboards and it is similar to the level of preparation, a gloss will be very beautiful if a topcoat is well sanded and clean.
> 
> ...



I see this video every day


----------



## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Right on said:


> The 38D1XJ00 after experimenting with low pass filters, the best result I've got was 12 ohm resistor - 100 uf ceramic capacitor and 1mm ID tube , sounded without distortion, boosted sub bass and loud enough. pretty impressive I can say .
> I've used
> Thin film resistors from Viking - 0.1 % tolerance and ceramic capacitors from murata 7xr 10% tolerance
> 
> ...


Brown to green as it is more like ety sort of response we need from it


----------



## catlord

I'm about to order the materials for the shells of my first ciem, I plan on using gks for drivers, should I use cerumen filters at the end of the tubes? Even looking at the ones made by companies I see that some use them and other (most) don't, is there a reason not to use them? Wouldn't they make maintenance easier? Or is wax buildup not that big of a concern and just cleaning them every once in a while is fine?


----------



## Wgibson

Played around with this Sonion 20x53 mystery driver, carefully filed a corner to vent it, now that's looking pretty good for about 7 bucks a pair... no changes between tests other than the vent (and the tube might have moved a little in the tack.)


Pic: 


Spoiler


----------



## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


----------



## Wgibson

High pass the 2389D with a capacitor, but then I think you want the full range on up. Dampers just to tame peaks.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Right on said:


> @dhruvmeena96
> I will order some more dampers because I have only white, gray and red .
> Do you suggest bandpass filter for the 2389D or only one cap with damping filters  ?


Suggestion 1
Add 20ohms to each 2389 and then series it

Suggestion 2
Add a big ass 47 or 33uF cap

Suggestion 3
Add green to red damper(depends how much you want  on 12mm tube

Suggestion 4
38D1XJ007MI/8A
Series it
Lpad it(4.7uF series and parallel)
Increase series resistor to control the amount of bass


----------



## Aldo40

Wgibson said:


> Played around with this Sonion 20x53 mystery driver, carefully filed a corner to vent it, now that's looking pretty good for about 7 bucks a pair... no changes between tests other than the vent (and the tube might have moved a little in the tack.)
> 
> 
> Pic:
> ...




For less peak, add one or two yellow damper at the end of the tube. A smaller tube in diameter 0.5_0.2mm can also do the same thing, will be more tense but the efficiency in the sub will be a little less good at listening. With a 1mm tube it is a good compromise. 0.5 or 0.2mm is efficient but I find the efficiency less good. It can be interesting to use it in a low config only for example on a ci22955 to tighten it and with a dynamic driver in SUB configuration. This would energize the sub-bass ensemble because everyone has their flaw and advantages But you have to experiment


----------



## Wgibson

Aldo40 said:


> For less peak, add one or two yellow damper at the end of the tube. A smaller tube in diameter 0.5_0.2mm can also do the same thing, will be more tense but the efficiency in the sub will be a little less good at listening. With a 1mm tube it is a good compromise. 0.5 or 0.2mm is efficient but I find the efficiency less good. It can be interesting to use it in a low config only for example on a ci22955 to tighten it and with a dynamic driver in SUB configuration. This would energize the sub-bass ensemble because everyone has their flaw and advantages But you have to experiment



That was actually with a 1.5mm id tube (driver has a weird plastic nozzle) but that 1.5k peak leads into the pinna gain for whatever mid driver is used, so I kinda like the way that curve looks. But plenty of room to lownpass with smaller tubing, shouldn't need any dampers there.

I got leads soldered and will play around with a breadboard, probably going with the vented sonion 20x53 and a knowles twfk 33803 for next project. Maybe a dip switch with series resistors on the sonion to cut down on the bass, because that is a strong woofer for sure, but I want to make something with stupid bass so this will work.

Wrapping up my CI-30120 and SR-31843 now. Packaging was... a challenge. Had to abandon the brass tube so mids will probably be flat/elevated, but I can fit a short section of the tube in as an orifice if I need to. Relying on liberal use of B7000 to seal all that, so we'll see how it graphs once it dries.



Spoiler


----------



## Wgibson

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Suggestion 1
> Add 20ohms to each 2389 and then series it
> 
> Suggestion 2
> ...



Verify L pad components? Should be resistors not caps, and parallel resistor is much smaller than series resistor, not same value. Right?

What benefits does L pad have vs series resistor, other than needing lower value resistors and not increasing DCR/impedance too much?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Wgibson said:


> Verify L pad components? Should be resistors not caps, and parallel resistor is much smaller than series resistor, not same value. Right?
> 
> What benefits does L pad have vs series resistor, other than needing lower value resistors and not increasing DCR/impedance too much?


lpad is series and parallel resistor mate
driver
parallel resistor
series resistor
2pin or mmcx

it flattens impedance and its more calculative in dB loss

as the above 4.7ohm series parallel Lpad will eat 10dB exact, where ever you put it


----------



## Wgibson (Feb 1, 2021)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> lpad is series and parallel resistor mate
> driver
> parallel resistor
> series resistor
> ...



All L pad calculators I've seen have a much bigger series resistor, and a small parallel resistor. You said 4.7uf, capacitance, so both those things confused me. You mean L pad with 4.7 ohm series and 4.7 ohm parallel?

And being selfish, for my project I'm thinking of dip switches that I can use to short series resistors to increase bass, so a parallel resistor in an L pad complicates that a bit, unless I use a switch to kill it, then the switching is not intuitive, not ideal but that's ok.

So, same question, benefits of L pad vs series resistors? Edit: you did answer that, thanks, impedance and more exact db reduction.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Wgibson said:


> All L pad calculators I've seen have a much bigger series resistor, and a small parallel resistor. You said 4.7uf, capacitance, so both those things confused me. You mean L pad with 4.7 ohm series and 4.7 ohm parallel?
> 
> And being selfish, for my project I'm thinking of dip switches that I can use to short series resistors to increase bass, so a parallel resistor in an L pad complicates that a bit, unless I use a switch to kill it, then the switching is not intuitive, not ideal but that's ok.
> 
> So, same question, benefits of L pad vs series resistors? Edit: you did answer that, thanks, impedance and more exact db reduction.


I said 47uF not 4.7uF
And it's for different drivet


----------



## Aldo40 (Feb 1, 2021)

Wgibson said:


> Verify L pad components? Should be resistors not caps, and parallel resistor is much smaller than series resistor, not same value. Right?
> 
> What benefits does L pad have vs series resistor, other than needing lower value resistors and not increasing DCR/impedance too much?


The purpose of the LPAD is to keep a linear impedance constant.

A single serial resistance will vary the height of the driver’s impedance, but not its non-linearity.

So the resistance in// is there to maintain a linear impedance, regardless of the value used on the serial resistance.

The Lpad linearizes the impedance but does not block its order of magnitude, the higher your serial resistance, the higher the impedance will be.

Depending on the target value of the impedance sought, the two R values may be played.

an example:

With a LPAD 4R7 series and 4R7 //, we will have an impedance around 11 ohms on a 38dx1.

With a LPAD 8R2 series and 8R2//, we will have an impedance around 8 ohms for an identical output(db), so there is a choice to make also depending on the performance of the other drivers used to fine-tune to the best.
The LPAD proposed by Dhruv is correct and is a good starting point
Aldo


----------



## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


----------



## Aldo40

The 38DX1 can be used without filter if you use the tube and the appropriate damper

Regarding the LPAD on the 38DX1 here is what it gives:


----------



## Wgibson

I can do the math if needed, but could someone post the simplified L pad formula where both resistors are the same value? All the calculators I'm finding have different R1 and R2 values.


----------



## Wgibson

Well, here's how the CI-30120 and SR-31843 ended up. I removed the tubes from the CI because the response was a little weird, and turns out the midrange dips by itself so I don't need any physical low pass at all. Both drivers are just playing into open space, all sealed with B7000. Lacking top end for sure, but its another project completed. 

This was the CI with the SR inside the zobel (wired reverse phase) and SR also has zobel. Will take me some time to evaluate how it sounds because I'm spoiled by listening to the planars I made, but sounds decent so far.

Could even out the peaks with some foam in the nozzle, but don't think its necessary.


----------



## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


----------



## Wgibson

Sure, but how do you calculate the attenuation (db reduction) with an L pad using the same resistor value for both? All I can find is single series resistor, or L pad with different R1 and R2 values.


----------



## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


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## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Right on said:


> If you lpad the 38D1XJ00 = 12.5 ohms connected in parallel for a 3db attenuation for example
> We will need 3.65 ohm serial resistor and a 30.3 parallel resistor = 12.5 ohms
> 
> Or a single resistor 5.16 ohms = 17.76 ohms for a 3 db attenuation.
> ...


Zobel can be used on woofer to damp it's high rising inductance

You can add it to any individual driver as long as it's BA

If we are talking about combined circuit with bass frequency impedance higher than mids

Your basic capacitor zobel won't work and you might need inductive zobel
I mean, it's possible to make it but inductor even in smd size are big


----------



## 528367 (Feb 2, 2021)

🙃


----------



## duo8

Second attempt. It won't go any deeper than this. Wasn't able to get all of the external ear either.
Guess I'm getting that syringe after all. Another month.


----------



## MISHKA2020

duo8 said:


> Second attempt. It won't go any deeper than this. Wasn't able to get all of the external ear either.
> Guess I'm getting that syringe after all. Another month.


One more molds for practice 😉. Make sure to buy otoblock also. I know, it's not easy. Once you get it, it will be like riding a bike.


----------



## MISHKA2020 (Feb 2, 2021)

Hey guys ... What do you use for glueing tubes on driver ?  I have a habit of putting a drop of super glue to hold well.  But the part that closes all the holes at the connection between the tube and the driver bothers me so that there are no leaks.  So far I’ve put on epoxy but it doesn’t turn out neatly and stays a bit sticky.  In the end it turns yellow and looks really ugly.  I'm thinking instead of epoxy stretch UV gel or Fotoplast and cure it.  Has anyone tried it?

Oh, and i also first put 1 ID tube, then i put 2 ID over it.


----------



## musmecca

MISHKA2020 said:


> Hey guys ... What do you use for glueing tubes on driver ?  I have a habit of putting a drop of super glue to hold well.  But the part that closes all the holes at the connection between the tube and the driver bothers me so that there are no leaks.  So far I’ve put on epoxy but it doesn’t turn out neatly and stays a bit sticky.  In the end it turns yellow and looks really ugly.  I'm thinking instead of epoxy stretch UV gel or Fotoplast and cure it.  Has anyone tried it?
> 
> Oh, and i also first put 1 ID tube, then i put 2 ID over it.


I'm a fan of bondic. It's a uv activated glue that is viscous so it doesn't drip everywhere. I tried the non fuming superglue..409?...and it flowed too quickly. I quit using after ruining a few drivers.


----------



## Aldo40

I glue to the superglue and over it I put a net of UV resin


----------



## tomekk

MISHKA2020 said:


> What do you use for glueing tubes on driver



In these modern times only uv adhesives/glues have the best effects.


----------



## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


----------



## Xymordos

I usually use superglue since the bond's quite strong and the tube doesn't tear off as easily from bending.


----------



## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


----------



## seijisandrei

Hi can anybody help me?

I'm a total noob on this. My background is for the arts, no engineering whatsoever, but I'm relatively good at math.
I have a ci-22955 + ed-29869 + twfk-30017 drivers here. Can anyone suggest a good crossover configuration?

I can do everything else. My only problem is how will I tune the drivers using a crossover. TIA


----------



## tomekk

seijisandrei said:


> ci-22955 + ed-29869 + twfk-30017 Can anyone suggest a good crossover configuration?





Xymordos said:


> CI22955 - use as a full range with 3300 ohm damper 16mm-22mm tubing
> ED26869 - use 1-2,2uF cap - 13-16mm tubing 680 ohm damper
> WBFK - connect it in second order after ED with another 1uF 10-13mm tubing 680 damper





piotrus-g said:


> connect CI in phase, ED in reverse phase and WBFK with 2nd order crossover in the same phase as CI or in reverse polarity if you use 1st order.


----------



## seijisandrei

Thanks for the recommendation, however I have twfk not wbfk. Would it yield same results?

Also what could these look like visually? I don't understand the 2nd order stuff.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

seijisandrei said:


> Thanks for the recommendation, however I have twfk not wbfk. Would it yield same results?
> 
> Also what could these look like visually? I don't understand the 2nd order stuff.


It's easy to tune ED and CI
Either you can do zobelception or tune them seperately(will help in both)

For TWFK

That driver is one of the messy driver
The wbfk has to wired in reverse phase with FK in twfk

Actually my advice
Make two different iem


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Ma friend @tomekk you tagged post but didn't write anything causing me to go in OCD mode


----------



## seijisandrei

dhruvmeena96 said:


> It's easy to tune ED and CI
> Either you can do zobelception or tune them seperately(will help in both)
> 
> For TWFK
> ...



Thanks for the reply!

What do you mean by wired on reverse? 
I failed to mention I only have 20 litz wires in total lol. A big mistake I made. I can't order anymore because shipping is 10x the cost of the wires and you can't find those wire locally here in our country.


----------



## JackIEM

Right on said:


> This is some work from me  and one friend


Hi!
Love your 3D printed shells. How you processed it to get crystal clear walls? 
Cheers!


----------



## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


----------



## JackIEM

Right on said:


> Hi 🙂
> Like you said this is a 3d printet shell. Has already a very clear surface.
> only thing is polish them and use lacquer. Lack3 or other.
> Thats it
> ...



But this was your starting point, wasn't it? Milky shells with fingerprints visible straight from the printer.


----------



## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


----------



## JackIEM

Right on said:


> Like you see in this photos the color changed again because I wanted a bigger inside diameter nozzle.
> The process will be the same



Yeah, Thank you! but my question is how you came from this (milky and with 3D print marks):



to this (clear and transparent):



I am talking about shell clarity  Thanks!


----------



## Aldo40

the milky side is normal, it’s the 3D layers that do this just like a shell that was sanded, the simple fact of putting lack3 on makes it transparent is all


----------



## goozaman

Hi guys. 

Where have you purchased PVC tube with 1 mm ID or 1.5 mm ID. I can't find it anywhere...


----------



## amemisome

Hey guys,

I've been reading stuff from this thread for a while now and finally decided to get into making my own IEMs. I’ve taken a lot of time to research this stuff, but it’s still quite hard and I don’t yet understand everything. My plan is to order a IEC711 & impedance curve measurement device from taobao, then use those two measurements of both drivers in VituixCAD to design the electronic crossover. Obviously if I succeed, I will report back with the exact values I used so anyone who wants can copy the design.


I wanted to design a dual driver setup with a similar frequency response to the Etymotic ER3XR, same bass, mids, and upper treble but with slightly less pinna gain (3Khz peak). My idea to achieve this is to use a CI-22955 for bass and mids 20~800Hz and ED-29689 as a full range driver. To not let the CI make the midrange too warm I want to dampen it and use an L-pad, if I understand it correctly this should make the ED treble comparatively lower. To get similar upper treble as the ER3/ER4P on the ED I wanted to use a horn to boost the upper treble, but in combination with the right damper filter so it doesn’t bring up that 5K peak.




My questions are: does this seem achievable with these two drivers and could this design be improved in some way?


----------



## tomekk

CI full range, green damper 2x20mm custom (16-20mm universal), ED 2,2-4,7uF white damper or no damper, 13mm custom (8-10mm universal) Use only 2mm tube, smaller diameters kills the brightness and you get muffled monster.


----------



## Aldo40

goozaman said:


> Hi guys.
> 
> Where have you purchased PVC tube with 1 mm ID or 1.5 mm ID. I can't find it anywhere...


seller soundlink aliexpress


----------



## Aldo40

amemisome said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I've been reading stuff from this thread for a while now and finally decided to get into making my own IEMs. I’ve taken a lot of time to research this stuff, but it’s still quite hard and I don’t yet understand everything. My plan is to order a IEC711 & impedance curve measurement device from taobao, then use those two measurements of both drivers in VituixCAD to design the electronic crossover. Obviously if I succeed, I will report back with the exact values I used so anyone who wants can copy the design.
> 
> ...



I would say that your Lpad should be reviewed because I don’t think the impedance is linear with these values, try 4R7serie and 10R// to begin with, the impedance should be linear. You’ll force the 4R7 if you get too many bass.

For your CI tube I think you can use yellow damper at the end of tube, you can start with a 4700 and added to adjust.

On the ED29689 you can use a green damper in a tube of 1.5mm ID over 10mm long to start.

If you lack extensions or performance on high frequency, you can increase the length of your tube by a few millimetres to adjust but for this it is better to measure at the same time to see the evolution on the response curve


----------



## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


----------



## Wgibson (Feb 5, 2021)

@amemisome I'd skip the 711 and just get a dayton imm6, and also make your own impedance jig (very easy compared to making an iem, just connectors and a 100 ohm resistor.) You can use room eq wizard software (free, but this reminds me I need to donate!) That will get you up and running for a very reasonable cost.

Edit: in a pinch, you can use electrical wire insulation as a sound tube, easy to find anywhere locally, if you are waiting for your real tubing to arrive. Or if you want to see the effects of different sizes on the frequency response.


----------



## Luffytaro

Hi all

Can anyone help me on this? 

I am building 26E25wt02/9 and 38D

How can I design high pass filter for 26e25? Or only use damper? 


For 38D, i think I can use 12 ohm resister and 100uF cap as Right On using.


----------



## amemisome

@tomekk @Aldo40 
Thanks for the help, I'll be sure to only use 2mm ID tubing then. I'll also try out both of your crossovers in REW/Vituix first before trying anything else on my own.
The idea is to make a custom so I'll use 20mm on the CI and 13mm on the ED.

@Wgibson 
The 711 I found is actually about the same price and since I'll have to wait for the drivers, tubing and stuff from Soundlink anyway, shipping time isn't that much of an issue either. I think I'll still order it because I think it's neat, though for the price I doubt it's going to be any more accurate than what you suggested.
Thanks for the tips though, I didn't even know about the Dayton imm6 before and it's also good to know that the acoustic tubing can be substituted with any plasic/pvc tubing of the same size.


----------



## tomekk

Luffytaro said:


> Hi all
> 
> Can anyone help me on this?
> 
> ...



26e25 - 2600 full range, e25 factory mounted 100uF or change it to 220uF, 2mm*13 Brown or white filter. 38DX full range (it is factory lowpassed by Sonion acustically) 2mm*20, parallel, reverse polarity to 2600 I think. Maye any resistor for coherence with 26e25. You will get cool sounding project with these drivers.


----------



## Luffytaro

tomekk said:


> 26e25 - 2600 full range, e25 factory mounted 100uF or change it to 220uF, 2mm*13 Brown or white filter. 38DX full range (it is factory lowpassed by Sonion acustically) 2mm*20, parallel, reverse polarity to 2600 I think. Maye any resistor for coherence with 26e25. You will get cool sounding project with these drivers.



Thanks Tomekk, 

could you please explain while we use tube 2mm instead of 1.5 or 1.0 mm to fit with spout of 38D? I guess to inscrease bass. 
And for 38D, we don't need cap to cut high freq, don't we? I really don't understand this point. 

And one more, we don't need high pass filter for 26E25 because have cap on E25, don't we? I just fear low  freq on 2600 will impact to 38DX. 

Thanks so much.


----------



## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


----------



## Luffytaro

Right on said:


> Hi 🙂
> The 12 ohm resistor 100 uf capacitor is for dual 38D1XJ00 not for single and connected all in series and reversed polarity
> 
> I'm also testing the 38D1XJ00 with low pass filters with Acupass and without Acu pass to see the difference of the Acupass .
> ...



Hi Right On

You mean that Resister + cap + driver are series together? 

As i know with low pass filter circuit, cap parallel with driver, why do we connect series in this case? 

And reverse polarity mean that + pole of driver connect - pole on jack and reverse? If yes, is it make reverse phase or net? And the reason for connect reverse polarity? 

Thanks for your support.


----------



## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


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## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


----------



## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


----------



## tomekk

Luffytaro said:


> Thanks Tomekk,
> 
> 1. could you please explain while we use tube 2mm instead of 1.5 or 1.0 mm to fit with spout of 38D? I guess to inscrease bass.
> 
> ...



1. It doesn't matter on the spout. The 1mm spout can also be in a 3mm tube. You glue it to the driver e.g. with UV glue, no sealing rings are needed.
2mm tube is standard in audio world, smaller diameters are for experienced professionals and specific types of speakers that can work with smaller tubes. In DYI audio, smaller tubes than 2mm will make your design weaker than one built on 2mm. Trust me.
2. Sonion engineers were thinking when they came up with Acupass to get rid of the complications associated with an electric lowpass. I guess  
The 3800 with Acupass has great rolloff without an electric lowpass, so adding an electric lowpass is unnecessary and has a negative effect on other drivers. 
There are two ways of making designs, the modern one of maximum simplification (full range modules, acoustic low pass, no corssovers etc..) and the old school type (based of big speakers science, electric lowpasses, lots of acoustic filters etc.). In DIY the most important thing is to make projects as simple as possible, the more complications without supported experience or "reverse enginering"  can kill many projects. 
3. One more thing about inverted phase, some full range speaker connections can effect phase cancelation of the sound. To avoid this there are two ways: invert the phase of the speaker (for example bass driver) or use a hypass/midpass/ instead of a full range (mid driver). If you want a lighter sound instead of in parallel + ---- ++ -- ---- - you can connect them in series + --- + -+ - --- -


----------



## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


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## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Right on said:


> This is a general information for the new members in this forum.  this is a PDF post about how to design earphones from sonion and may help.
> 
> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAAegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw0fkvRDsO-6R01b_VSEp_j-
> 
> ...


Reduce woofer ID to 0.5
Reduce mid driver to 1
And keep tweet to 2mm


----------



## Aldo40 (Feb 7, 2021)

Right on said:


> BTW guys Im going for my build, 3 way crossover
> 
> With 5 shrink tubes 1.2 mm each tube.
> I have some very high quality shrink tubes.


Be careful with the retractable tubes, there are two defects, ca resonates + and its deforms more in the elbows therefore risk pinching tubes.
finish the PVC tubes with metal tubes if you need more space.
3 tubes are enough, you will complicate your life without counting the fixation of the damper.

look at the VE8 3-way there are only two tubes, it does not prevent it from sounding good and that a was even a best seller and is still current


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Aldo40 said:


> Be careful with the retractable tubes, there are two defects, ca resonates + and its deforms more in the elbows therefore risk pinching tubes.
> finish the PVC tubes with metal tubes if you need more space.
> 3 tubes are enough, you will complicate your life without counting the fixation of the damper.
> 
> look at the VE8 3-way there are only two tubes, it does not prevent it from sounding good and that a was even a best seller and is still current


VE8..... I didn't like it though....

But yah, it's great example for two tube design


----------



## Aldo40

dhruvmeena96 said:


> VE8..... I didn't like it though....
> 
> But yah, it's great example for two tube design


yes Dhruv after that depends on the tastes of each one it is true but must recognize that it has been very successful and that its design is well done.
Aldo


----------



## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


----------



## Aldo40

Yes if you do not want the tubes to resonate, you must fill the length of tube if possible, just be careful not to block the vents of the 38DX1


----------



## 528367

Aldo40 said:


> Yes if you do not want the tubes to resonate, you must fill the length of tube if possible, just be careful not to block the vents of the 38DX1



If I block the vents of the bass drivers my life will be destroyed 😂


----------



## Aldo40

Right on said:


> If I block the vents of the bass drivers my life will be destroyed 😂


----------



## seijisandrei

Hi everyone, may I just ask, are these illustrations correct?


----------



## Wgibson (Feb 8, 2021)

Done with the hard parts on this one, 4x 32257 and a 31736, 6 drivers per side. External plug and play circuit, all drivers are pinned out directly to 1.27mm headers. 2mm tube on 31736, 1.5mm tube on the 32257, they were dual units, stretched tube to fit on the 2 nozzles. Feel pretty good about my soldering and packaging skills now... This was about $55 in parts. Open to circuit design suggestions, definitely going to try 4x series 32257 and super high pass on the 31736 first. Vents open on the 32257's. Still need to seal the tubes to the nozzle.. UV glue (this is a life saver) to hold tubes on, and to fit header to faceplate. Cured with a purple laser.

Bunch of pics:



Spoiler







Edit: I left the 31736 wired in parallel, so they are not individually pinned out.. Wasn't sure if I could fit another row of pins, and this is mostly about playing with the 32257s but also wanted more top end.


----------



## seijisandrei

seijisandrei said:


> Hi everyone, may I just ask, are these illustrations correct?




Anyone please?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

seijisandrei said:


> Hi everyone, may I just ask, are these illustrations correct?


This is correct


----------



## seijisandrei

dhruvmeena96 said:


> This is correct



Thanks! You're the best! 😊


----------



## 528367 (Feb 8, 2021)

Deleted 😶 🙃


----------



## tirrorex (Feb 8, 2021)

Hey guys.
Currently using a pair of headphones AKG K702 from audio technika.
Wondering about replacing those with ciems (that i could use for workout aswell) for gaming.

Did any of you came up with a sound signature close to this?
Basically good soundstage (though i would like it not to big for competitive fps), proper spatial imagining (could be better on the k702 to be honest) and the sound signature is kinda special as it allows to hear footsteps over gunshots, if my memory is correct bass are a little lower than medium (or is it mid-range?).

On a side note, i am looking for shells for my existing materials (
knowlers gk-31732-000
knowles bf-1861-000).
I don't have time at the moment to make custom shells so universal will have to do.
Thanks


----------



## discus123

Hi all,
@*dhruvmeena96*

My conifg for above is 38am / 28uap / 2389 / 31736, 2 tubes of ID 2.0mm for low and high.
My problem is I want to lower 3-4db at peak of 7-8k.  I have used green damper for high already,  I have tried another bigger value of damper for high but it just lower the peak at 2-5k, the peak at 7-8k cannot be tamed.  I have stick the tube to the shell and what I can do right now is to adjust the value of capacitor or damper,  the length of tube cannot be changed.  Anyone have any ideas how to lower the peak of 7-8k are welcomed.  Thanks !!


----------



## HenacanPodwell

discus123 said:


> Hi all,
> @*dhruvmeena96*
> 
> My conifg for above is 38am / 28uap / 2389 / 31736, 2 tubes of ID 2.0mm for low and high.
> My problem is I want to lower 3-4db at peak of 7-8k.  I have used green damper for high already,  I have tried another bigger value of damper for high but it just lower the peak at 2-5k, the peak at 7-8k cannot be tamed.  I have stick the tube to the shell and what I can do right now is to adjust the value of capacitor or damper,  the length of tube cannot be changed.  Anyone have any ideas how to lower the peak of 7-8k are welcomed.  Thanks !!


Try reducing the overall spl of 31736 i suppose? Try a lower capacitor to cross


----------



## amemisome (Feb 9, 2021)

tirrorex said:


> Hey guys.
> Currently using a pair of headphones AKG K702 from audio technika.
> Wondering about replacing those with ciems (that i could use for workout aswell) for gaming.
> 
> ...



I'm fairly new to DIY so I can't help with the setup, but since nobody has replied to you yet and I do know some other stuff here's that I do know.
From the stuff I read here and on other sites, imaging and soundstage seem to come from the drivers and acoustic structures/crossover used more than sound signature. The sound signature that is generally thought of as having more soundstage is something with at least a treble boost, especially a decent pinna gain (2K~3K boost, for this probably by 7~10 dB over 800~1000Hz) seems to help but probably neutral-ish mids also help.
Then take the Shure SE535 for instance, the sound signature isn't what's described above, there's a light boost between 20~600Hz compared to the upper mids and most of the treble region seems more relaxed, giving it a warmer sound signature. Yet despite not exactly having the sound signature that people associate with good imaging and soundstage, a lot of people describe good imaging on these. The SE535's use a variant of the Knowles GK, which I assume means it's a capable driver, so I'm certain somebody knows what setup you should use to optimize the soundstage and imaging on the drivers you have.
Since you want to use a universal shell, from my personal experience wide bore tips help with improving soundstage and imaging so if you don't have those already they may be worth picking up.

Edit:
I forgot to add that having a dip around 2K~4K can make things sound more distant, though iirc this also makes placement slightly worse. Boosting upper treble can add more detail, though some consider this detail to be fake detail.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Feb 9, 2021)

discus123 said:


> Hi all,
> @*dhruvmeena96*
> 
> My conifg for above is 38am / 28uap / 2389 / 31736, 2 tubes of ID 2.0mm for low and high.
> My problem is I want to lower 3-4db at peak of 7-8k.  I have used green damper for high already,  I have tried another bigger value of damper for high but it just lower the peak at 2-5k, the peak at 7-8k cannot be tamed.  I have stick the tube to the shell and what I can do right now is to adjust the value of capacitor or damper,  the length of tube cannot be changed.  Anyone have any ideas how to lower the peak of 7-8k are welcomed.  Thanks !!


if its iec711, that may be the coupler resonance
fitting iem deep or having custom iem will kill it

nice build though, it should be nice sounding

but if you want to really kill that peak, either choose a different damped swfk or cross swfk higher

also, i would damp some of the bass by making a leak somewhere in bass


----------



## tirrorex

amemisome said:


> I'm fairly new to DIY so I can't help with the setup, but since nobody has replied to you yet and I do know some other stuff here's that I do know.
> From the stuff I read here and on other sites, imaging and soundstage seem to come from the drivers and acoustic structures/crossover used more than sound signature. The sound signature that is generally thought of as having more soundstage is something with at least a treble boost, especially a decent pinna gain (2K~3K boost, for this probably by 7~10 dB over 800~1000Hz) seems to help but probably neutral-ish mids also help.
> Then take the Shure SE535 for instance, the sound signature isn't what's described above, there's a light boost between 20~600Hz compared to the upper mids and most of the treble region seems more relaxed, giving it a warmer sound signature. Yet despite not exactly having the sound signature that people associate with good imaging and soundstage, a lot of people describe good imaging on these. The SE535's use a variant of the Knowles GK, which I assume means it's a capable driver, so I'm certain somebody knows what setup you should use to optimize the soundstage and imaging on the drivers you have.
> Since you want to use a universal shell, from my personal experience wide bore tips help with improving soundstage and imaging so if you don't have those already they may be worth picking up.



Definitly helps, will keep on researching for the sound signature i need 
Thanks mate


----------



## Luffytaro

I really wanna die. I spend whole day to build, but just final step, insert wood stick to keep and apply lacquer, then it crack and stuck inside.


----------



## seijisandrei

Luffytaro said:


> I really wanna die. I spend whole day to build, but just final step, insert wood stick to keep and apply lacquer, then it crack and stuck inside.



Why did you put a stick again?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Luffytaro said:


> I really wanna die. I spend whole day to build, but just final step, insert wood stick to keep and apply lacquer, then it crack and stuck inside.





seijisandrei said:


> Why did you put a stick again?


Yes, why did you put a stick??

Also
Shell is such a hassle, that I have decided to live with Universals.


----------



## mattmatt

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Yes, why did you put a stick??
> 
> Also
> Shell is such a hassle, that I have decided to live with Universals.


There's another level of challenge and fun in making your own shells.


----------



## Luffytaro

seijisandrei said:


> Why did you put a stick again?


First time it


dhruvmeena96 said:


> Yes, why did you put a stick??
> 
> Also
> Shell is such a hassle, that I have decided to live with Universals.


Yes, I really don't know why I put a stick. I will make a new one : (


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Luffytaro said:


> First time it
> 
> Yes, I really don't know why I put a stick. I will make a new one : (


We have a new meme

Try the stick method

If shells break, it's no good


----------



## seijisandrei

Luffytaro said:


> First time it
> 
> Yes, I really don't know why I put a stick. I will make a new one : (



I did not use sticks on my builds. Don't you have tube for the bores?


----------



## tomekk

Luffytaro said:


> I really wanna die. I spend whole day to build, but just final step, insert wood stick to keep and apply lacquer, then it crack and stuck inside.



I will try to glue sharpen stick to broken one inside nozzle. Second way, open faceplate and move stick inside tube by tweezers. Dont worry, repairs and fixing are normal in ciem process building.


----------



## Aldo40

Luffytaro said:


> I really wanna die. I spend whole day to build, but just final step, insert wood stick to keep and apply lacquer, then it crack and stuck inside.


For lacquering, plug a 2-pin connector into your IEM and you hold this connector with a small clamp, that’s how you do it. I posted a video a few days ago and you have all the clues you need to do an IEM


----------



## MISHKA2020

Luffytaro said:


> I really wanna die. I spend whole day to build, but just final step, insert wood stick to keep and apply lacquer, then it crack and stuck inside.



I want to laugh and cry at the same time.  🙆‍♂️.  I went through it all.  Stop using a toothpick to close holes when you do lack.  The wood absorbs the lack very much and you can no longer take it out.  Btw, reduce curring time after lack3 on 4 min. It wan't be that yellow like it is now!


----------



## Luffytaro

Aldo40 said:


> For lacquering, plug a 2-pin connector into your IEM and you hold this connector with a small clamp, that’s how you do it. I posted a video a few days ago and you have all the clues you need to do an IEM


Good idea friend, thanks so much


----------



## Luffytaro

MISHKA2020 said:


> I want to laugh and cry at the same time.  🙆‍♂️.  I went through it all.  Stop using a toothpick to close holes when you do lack.  The wood absorbs the lack very much and you can no longer take it out.  Btw, reduce curring time after lack3 on 4 min. It wan't be that yellow like it is now!


I do not have lack 3 know, i  am using cheap UV glue ( not fotoplast) to trial and use this glue to coat outside as lacquer, might be it poor quality and easy return to yellow


----------



## Luffytaro

tomekk said:


> I will try to glue sharpen stick to broken one inside nozzle. Second way, open faceplate and move stick inside tube by tweezers. Dont worry, repairs and fixing are normal in ciem process building.


Ok, i will try instead of make a new one, thanks bro


----------



## Luffytaro

seijisandrei said:


> I did not use sticks on my builds. Don't you have tube for the bores?


Actually I quite rush when use stick because it fit in tube, if have time, i think i can find another way to keep it and dont make this issue


----------



## Luffytaro

Hi all, I made a new one with universal type, I mixed facelate with color, diffucult to prevent bubble and   color is not good dissolve, might be I use poor quality glue and too less, because I just use amount enough for faceplate. But It's look not too bad, : )


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Feb 11, 2021)

Luffytaro said:


> Hi all, I made a new one with universal type, I mixed facelate with color, diffucult to prevent bubble and   color is not good dissolve, might be I use poor quality glue and too less, because I just use amount enough for faceplate. But It's look not too bad, : )


----------



## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


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## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


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## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


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## Aldo40 (Feb 11, 2021)

Right on said:


> I order from them , Glue and everything about the shells except drivers.They sell small bottles. The big one are expensive for me .
> Where you buy what you need  ? Is any cheap internet shop out there I don't know ?



Soundlink


----------



## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


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## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


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## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


----------



## Aldo40

Right on said:


> Sorry I forgot to write Alternatives to Soundlink .
> I know Soundlink years now !  sells only big bottles Dreve fotoplast big bottle 130 Euro + 30 Euro shipping = 160 Euro. Soundlink is expensive shop my opinion.
> Dreve is German Company and I live in Germany. If was for big bottles then I could buy directly from dreve or Soundlink and go broke for one costume shell. 😅
> 
> ...


Personally, I take Lake 3 from mcear.

it’s perfect the small quantities it’s ample and yet I lacquer some pairs 

With 10ml you can paint tens of IEM and even more!

The UV products do not keep long, I mean by the that if they are too old, they thicken in short I would not buy a big bottle of lake 3, I prefer from time to time to take me small packaging at MCears


----------



## TheLastAurora

Hey guys! I'd like some guidance for a project, as I'm a complete noob in the CIEM matter. I know it should be easier to just get a GV-32830, but I don't think I could achieve the tonality I'm looking for. The things that I really care about are note weight, vocals and natural timbre (sub bass is nice too). Which armatures get to delicious mids, good (slightly elevated) bass and non-offendant treble? And how do I set up everything? Thank you!


----------



## Themilkman46290

TheLastAurora said:


> Hey guys! I'd like some guidance for a project, as I'm a complete noob in the CIEM matter. I know it should be easier to just get a GV-32830, but I don't think I could achieve the tonality I'm looking for. The things that I really care about are note weight, vocals and natural timbre (sub bass is nice too). Which armatures get to delicious mids, good (slightly elevated) bass and non-offendant treble? And how do I set up everything? Thank you!


Read through the thread, there are literally hundreds of very nice recipes


----------



## TheLastAurora

Themilkman46290 said:


> Read through the thread, there are literally hundreds of very nice recipes


I just want to be sure that i get everything right


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## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


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## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


----------



## TheLastAurora

Right on said:


> You can buy this drivers if you want.  Both are top.
> This is the most powerful woofer they produce. Sonion 38aj007 parallel connection - with red damper .
> 
> sonion 2389D series connection - center tap connection with 4,7 uf ceramic capacitor , white damper  . 2x 1,5mm inside diameter tubes both .
> ...


Thank you! I didin't find 38aj007 on ali tho :c


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## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


----------



## TheLastAurora

Right on said:


> € 34,84  19%OFF | 2 stücke Sonion 38AJ00 7Mi/8a 3800 Serie Dual Bass Fahrer BA Fahrer Ausgewogene Anker Empfänger DIY IEM In -ohr Monitor
> https://a.aliexpress.com/_uQ0Mlh
> 
> € 33,68  15%OFF | 2 stücke Sonion 2389D Vollständige Palette BA Fahrer Dual 2389 Ausgewogene Anker Empfänger DIY IEM
> ...


One more question: do you think everything would fit in a moondrop SSP? i absolutely love that shell and i'm tempted just to buy that iem to try it out lol


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## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


----------



## Aldo40

Right on said:


> And for this shell you will need these mmcx connectors


With this shell I sometimes enlarged the aperture with dremel to put 2 pin connector 

the central pin of the mmcx is fragile. I fixed some to replace them in 2 pin. 

these dampers are ideal for 1mm tubes on bass
https://fr.aliexpress.com/item/32867433119.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.27426c37q2N4dS


----------



## amemisome

Yesterday I have been re-reading the posts on some of the more famous and most recommended designs on here and it got me thinking about the Finale 2 and Finale 3 designs. My thoughts were: if the Finale design uses one BA driver with a peak at 3K and one BA driver with a peak at 2K and 4K, would it be possible to have a separate driver for each peak? Because there are drivers with these peaks, for instance center tapped CI-22955 has a decent 2K peak and there's a few tweeters have the first peak around 4K like the WBFK-30095.
Since I'm fairly new I can understand if I overlooked something and this is actually a dumb idea, still I thought it would be interesting to ask since even if it isn't a good idea I could at least learn something from it.


----------



## Aldo40

amemisome said:


> Yesterday I have been re-reading the posts on some of the more famous and most recommended designs on here and it got me thinking about the Finale 2 and Finale 3 designs. My thoughts were: if the Finale design uses one BA driver with a peak at 3K and one BA driver with a peak at 2K and 4K, would it be possible to have a separate driver for each peak? Because there are drivers with these peaks, for instance center tapped CI-22955 has a decent 2K peak and there's a few tweeters have the first peak around 4K like the WBFK-30095.
> Since I'm fairly new I can understand if I overlooked something and this is actually a dumb idea, still I thought it would be interesting to ask since even if it isn't a good idea I could at least learn something from it.



you must measure by yourself all these drivers because the curve constructors are one thing but according to the characteristics of the tubes you went used you would not get quite the same response curve, you will even be surprised so do not rely on these curves, they are basic indicators.

With your tubes and dampers you can smooth all this without forgetting your filters.

Aldo


----------



## Luffytaro

Hi everyone, I am wondering how they can make a shell with color like this? I am trying to do but really difficult to dissolve color. I guess we can do like video on youtube.


----------



## amemisome

Aldo40 said:


> you must measure by yourself all these drivers because the curve constructors are one thing but according to the characteristics of the tubes you went used you would not get quite the same response curve, you will even be surprised so do not rely on these curves, they are basic indicators.
> 
> With your tubes and dampers you can smooth all this without forgetting your filters.
> 
> Aldo


Thanks for the reply, this is very informative! I guess I'll have to wait to gain a lot of first hand experience and a better point of reference first before thinking of changing up tried and proven designs lol.

Well this is sure to be a fun ride, I can't wait to experiment with all the cool drivers discussed in this thread (even though I can't afford half these designs right now haha).


----------



## mattmatt

Luffytaro said:


> Hi everyone, I am wondering how they can make a shell with color like this? I am trying to do but really difficult to dissolve color. I guess we can do like video on youtube.



This is made from real wood. The maker used a 3 axis CNC for this.


----------



## tirrorex

So i confirmed what i was looking for.
Any of you have a design with :

- Excellent imaging/separation
- Proper soundstage (which apparently comes from the build itself?)
- Highest possible trebbles
- Bass  recessed with little to no rumble,
- Mid should be neutral (i've read raised or not too recessed, i assume neutral is the way)

I will test this on universal shells and remade in on custom shells later if i like it.
Focus on competitive gaming for fps.


----------



## Luffytaro

mattmatt said:


> This is made from real wood. The maker used a 3 axis CNC for this.


Yes, might you correct how they do the shell body, but I mention about the color coat on shell, how can they do that? And I assume they use transfer water printing to do it.


----------



## mattmatt

Luffytaro said:


> Yes, might you correct how they do the shell body, but I mention about the color coat on shell, how can they do that? And I assume they use transfer water printing to do it.


That's the wood pattern. They use CNC to cut the shell from stabilized wood like this:


----------



## Aldo40

These are pieces of wood often used to make knives


----------



## mattmatt

Aldo40 said:


> These are pieces of wood often used to make knives


Yup, knife scales.  It can be searched as stab wood blanks too.


----------



## Luffytaro

mattmatt said:


> That's the wood pattern. They use CNC to cut the shell from stabilized wood like this:
> [/QUOTE





mattmatt said:


> That's the wood pattern. They use CNC to cut the shell from stabilized wood like this:


Regarding your picture, the color just outside of wood solid, right? After cut by CNC, the color will be removed and expose wood pattern original.


----------



## Wgibson

I have never seen hydro dipping on that small a scale, don't think it is practical. 

The stabilized wood scales are infused (vacuum impregnated) with different colored resin, sometimes the wood is also dyed first. The color is all the way through, not just on the surface.


----------



## mattmatt

Luffytaro said:


> Regarding your picture, the color just outside of wood solid, right? After cut by CNC, the color will be removed and expose wood pattern original.


No, the wood grain is wholly colored til the inside. They are dyed and stabilized with resin.


----------



## Wgibson

Wgibson said:


> Done with the hard parts on this one, 4x 32257 and a 31736, 6 drivers per side. External plug and play circuit, all drivers are pinned out directly to 1.27mm headers. 2mm tube on 31736, 1.5mm tube on the 32257, they were dual units, stretched tube to fit on the 2 nozzles. Feel pretty good about my soldering and packaging skills now... This was about $55 in parts. Open to circuit design suggestions, definitely going to try 4x series 32257 and super high pass on the 31736 first. Vents open on the 32257's. Still need to seal the tubes to the nozzle.. UV glue (this is a life saver) to hold tubes on, and to fit header to faceplate. Cured with a purple laser.
> 
> Bunch of pics:
> 
> ...



Having a rough time with the circuit design on this 4x 32257 and 31736, starting to think I should have used a 30017 instead. And/or done a resonator in the tube for the 32257s. Maybe next time.

I may try to orifice the 2mm  31736 tube to try and shift those peaks left to help fill in the 2.5-4k area. Might just have to deal with some ups and downs there.

Any other ideas? This is the best I can do in the current physical configuration, I have tried a wide range of capacitor values to cross the 31736, and checked in/out of phase (reverse polarity.)

Any series resistor on the 31736 kills stuff about 10k, so I don't want that.

I can series resist the 32257s to flatten out the low end some. Haven't even gotten to impedance stuff yet, maybe try an Lpad with minimal db reduction on the 32257s, and zobel the 31736?


----------



## Aldo40 (Feb 14, 2021)

What are the diameter and length of the 31736 tube?
which damper you use and what is its position?


----------



## Wgibson (Feb 14, 2021)

Aldo40 said:


> What are the diameter and length of the 31736 tube?
> which damper you use and what is its position?



2mm ID, about 14mm length, no damper but I do have some on hand. They would have to go at the end of the tube (furthest from driver.)

Edit: here are some more options that would be better suited for adding dampers. The 31736 is a good bit louder than the 4x 32257 in series.



Spoiler


----------



## Aldo40

Try this:

lengthen the tube of the swfk 20-30mm and put a red damper


----------



## Wgibson

Aldo40 said:


> Try this:
> 
> lengthen the tube of the swfk 20-30mm and put a red damper



Thanks, I'll keep length in mind for next time (already glued.) For now I'll try some dampers and start with red.


----------



## amemisome

What electronic components are good to buy for the electronic crossover?
I've read that AVX and Kemet make good ceramic capacitors though I don't know what series is good to buy, does it even matter? I've also seen people recommend the Elna Silmic but that seems a bit overkill.
For resistors I've actually not seen any recommendations, so maybe it doesn't matter? I know Susumu has an RS Audio Thin Film Chip Resistor line though they don't have many resistor value options (maybe only the 3 lowest could be usable for IEMs) and again is probably overkill.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

amemisome said:


> What electronic components are good to buy for the electronic crossover?
> I've read that AVX and Kemet make good ceramic capacitors though I don't know what series is good to buy, does it even matter? I've also seen people recommend the Elna Silmic but that seems a bit overkill.
> For resistors I've actually not seen any recommendations, so maybe it doesn't matter? I know Susumu has an RS Audio Thin Film Chip Resistor line though they don't have many resistor value options (maybe only the 3 lowest could be usable for IEMs) and again is probably overkill.


Use anything and everything possible mate
You can use tantalum, ceramic cap etc. Elna silmic is fine but do take care of polarities


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## Aldo40 (Feb 15, 2021)

For the resistors, I like small metal. I sometimes use vichay dales. But without much conviction that the sound is better. For capacitors, I personally put CMS ceramics as small as possible it takes less space. For the.elna silmic II I use them in audio amplifier but in a passive filter I don’t know if it’s worth it and it takes up space. optimization of filtering will be more important than putting the most expensive components


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## amemisome (Feb 15, 2021)

Thanks for the quick replies, very informative! I thought I was missing something, but if it doesn't really matter I'll just order a bunch of the cheaper AVX SMD capacitors and Vishay Dale SMD resistors from Mouser. That way I can quickly test out a good configuration after designing it in Vituix/REW. 

Edit:
Not going to buy from Mouser because they ask €20 shipping, I'll order from another site with better shipping rates. The other site doesn't sell AVX so I'll get Kemet then.


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## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


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## dhruvmeena96

amemisome said:


> Thanks for the quick replies, very informative! I thought I was missing something, but if it doesn't really matter I'll just order a bunch of the cheaper AVX SMD capacitors and Vishay Dale SMD resistors from Mouser. That way I can quickly test out a good configuration after designing it in Vituix/REW.
> 
> Edit:
> Not going to buy from Mouser because they ask €20 shipping, I'll order from another site with better shipping rates. The other site doesn't sell AVX so I'll get Kemet then.


Before using vituix cad

Make a measurement of every driver with specific tubes you want to add to it


----------



## Wgibson (Feb 16, 2021)

Well, here's what I'm moving forward with. Red damper was way too much, I used a black damper on the 31736 just to round off the peaks. So I'll build these two circuits, one is all series 32257, the other is 2x2 series parallel 32257, both have the 31736 in parallel with high pass capacitor(s.) No impedance fixes yet, haven't measured impedance yet actually.

 May try to zobel the whole thing all together as a first attempt?




Edit: tuning comments - small cap values as a high pass are significantly reducing db on the 31736, which helps me here, but is there a way to do this without reducing volume that much? Tried multiple caps to get the final value but that didn't seem to affect the db value. This is breadboard with normal ceramic caps, hopefully the final circuits with smd stuff aren't wildly different.


----------



## amemisome

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Before using vituix cad
> 
> Make a measurement of every driver with specific tubes you want to add to it


Thanks, yes that's the idea. I want to try out a few different damper values and drivers wired both in normal configuration and center tapped, so I have enough measurements to work with. Though the measurement device I bought will probably take the longest to arive because I bought it from taobao during Chinese new year without thinking lol.


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## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙂


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## amemisome (Feb 16, 2021)

Right on said:


> Kemet is the best for me . X7r 10% tolerance is the best you can find.  And for me the best smd resistors are from Viking.  Thin film resistors.


Thanks, I already ordered them but it seems I got the X7r 10% Kemet's. I ordered some different resistors, Vishay DCU thick film resistor (only Vishay SMD resistor they had at this store), which I hope will be good enough.



Right on said:


> Make iem with resistors and single capacitors . 2 way Woofer - tweeter or 3 way woofer - tweeter- super tweeter. Don't choose the 38D1XJ00 as woofer - sub woofer my opinion.
> 
> I have used many times the 38D1XJ00. the woofer isn't better than the other 38 series woofers from sonion and makes the build more complicated.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the tips, I'll limit to only the design recommended earlier then and I'll also limit to only simple crossovers using one capacitor. The reason I wanted to try Vituix was because I thought I could get an estimate of the sound without needing to resolder a different capacitor or resistor, though I know that the final sound will differ from the simulated frequency response and that these measuring tools aren't entirely accurate to begin with especially in the treble. Since the recommended design had 3 different possible capacitor values, I want to try the one which simulates the best.
I don't want to order more components for my first build since I'm not that confident in my soldering yet, so I'll stick to the CI and ED I ordered for now. I do have a KZ ZSN that I never use which I could cannibalize for the cheap knockoff tweeter if that's worth anything, but that's about it for drivers I'm willing to use in this first build.

I'll be certain to make a build with a Sonion 38 woofer and better full range/tweeter once I'm more confident in my soldering. Looking at what you write about them I can't wait to try them, but the idea of accidentally burning a $20 driver is keeping me away for now.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Wgibson said:


> Well, here's what I'm moving forward with. Red damper was way too much, I used a black damper on the 31736 just to round off the peaks. So I'll build these two circuits, one is all series 32257, the other is 2x2 series parallel 32257, both have the 31736 in parallel with high pass capacitor(s.) No impedance fixes yet, haven't measured impedance yet actually.
> 
> May try to zobel the whole thing all together as a first attempt?
> 
> ...


As I was saying
Series parallel is better to preserve pinna section and make 4 driver behave as 1

Too much series and inductive force increase a lot, killing the uppermid with it as amp don't like to play a lot of inductance.
It's like having a load of resistance at that Frequency


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## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


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## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


----------



## Wgibson

Right on said:


> the 38D1XJ00 maybe have the Acoupass technology but sounds  better with red damper and way way better with crossover for me but on this build I went simple .
> 
> To Tam the peaks on the 2389D the red damper works the best .
> 
> ...



Can you share the 38d1xj crossover details? I just got a pair


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## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


----------



## Wgibson

Right on said:


> Each build has different crossover.
> 
> I must know what you gonna build  🙂
> 
> ...



No plans for those yet, I have a few other things in line first. Just curious what you ended up with.


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## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


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## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


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## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


----------



## amemisome

Right on said:


> I have an  already made very good crossover , 2 way crossover , second order low pass filter for the ci and a single tantalum capacitor for the ed , very clean made on a pcb board for your ci and ed . If you pay the shipping cost I can send to you one pair.


Really? That would be amazing, I'll pm you. Thanks!


----------



## Luffytaro

Hi all

Do you guys know about the litz wire to connect driver inside as picture? I guess they use silver litz wire and wrap plastic tube outside. I am trying to buy it but I don't know where to buy.


----------



## Luffytaro

Right on said:


> Without having and without testing it
> I will suggest something to try if you want.
> 
> 38D1XJ00 low pass filter.
> ...





Right on said:


> Without having and without testing it
> I will suggest something to try if you want.
> 
> 38D1XJ00 low pass filter.
> ...



Hi Right On

About resistor for 38D1X, you propose use 16 Ohm.

I check DC resistance of 38D1X is 12.5 Ohm (Datasheet of Sonion site).

So we have fomular: F=1/(2*pi*R*C).

R is only 16 Ohm or both (16 + 12.5) if we place in fomular? (I'm really bad in Math )

In case if we only add cap for low pass filter, is it mean R=1?

Thanks so much for your help.


----------



## amemisome (Feb 17, 2021)

Luffytaro said:


> Hi all
> 
> Do you guys know about the litz wire to connect driver inside as picture? I guess they use silver litz wire and wrap plastic tube outside. I am trying to buy it but I don't know where to buy.


I think it's just really thin gauge wire with insulation already on it, maybe 28-38AWG? I only know that CEMA Electro acousti Store on aliexpress sells some 28AWG silver+gold or spc wires (which could be too thick at 1.12mm OD?). While I know there's other cable manufacturers that sell high quality wire for DIY stuff, I never really looked that deep into it so I wouldn't know who all sell good quality stuff, especially with such small diameters. Maybe somebody else knows a better alternative.
Links for the two wires I know of:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1000007744883.html
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33046978735.html

If you're going to use this kind of non pre tinned litz wire you will need a soldering jar/pot. (source: https://www.hflitzwire.com/litz-wire-soldering/ )
There's some videos on youtube explaining how to make a DIY soldering jar/pot with a regular soldering iron if you can't find/afford one, not sure how safe they are but it is an option.

Edit:
@dhruvmeena96 is absolutely correct, the Soundlink wires are great quality and the difference should be negligible.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

amemisome said:


> I think it's just really thin gauge wire with insulation already on it, maybe 28-38AWG? I only know that CEMA Electro acousti Store on aliexpress sells some 28AWG silver+gold or spc wires (which could be too thick at 1.12mm OD?). While I know there's other cable manufacturers that sell high quality wire for DIY stuff, I never really looked that deep into it so I wouldn't know who all sell good quality stuff, especially with such small diameters. Maybe somebody else knows a better alternative.
> Links for the two wires I know of:
> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1000007744883.html
> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33046978735.html
> ...


Type of metal doesn't really matter though

Just plug anything which has negligible resistance and everything is fine

Soundlink sells those small thin cable and you can contact them





Luffytaro said:


> Hi all
> 
> Do you guys know about the litz wire to connect driver inside as picture? I guess they use silver litz wire and wrap plastic tube outside. I am trying to buy it but I don't know where to buy.


----------



## Luffytaro

amemisome said:


> I think it's just really thin gauge wire with insulation already on it, maybe 28-38AWG? I only know that CEMA Electro acousti Store on aliexpress sells some 28AWG silver+gold or spc wires (which could be too thick at 1.12mm OD?). While I know there's other cable manufacturers that sell high quality wire for DIY stuff, I never really looked that deep into it so I wouldn't know who all sell good quality stuff, especially with such small diameters. Maybe somebody else knows a better alternative.
> Links for the two wires I know of:
> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1000007744883.html
> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33046978735.html
> ...


Thanks bro : )


----------



## 528367

Luffytaro said:


> Hi Right On
> 
> About resistor for 38D1X, you propose use 16 Ohm.
> 
> ...


One cap isn't a low pass filter. 
This is a high pass filter. 

The 38D1XJ00 has a big gain on 30 hz and then it start to roll of .you can select the crossover point wherever you want. 

You can use any resistor and any capacitor for low pass filter ( resistor- capacitor )and then measure it to see that any kind of low pass filter will work.  You don't need to take dc resistance and start from there.

The nominal impedance is for calculating the high pass filter ( one single capacitor )

The 38D1XJ00 is made for 3 way iems .

Single order crossover is like no crossover. 



The huge problem with first-order filters is that cut-off slope isn't very steep; indeed, it's shallow, falling off at only -6dB per octave and -20dB per decade. This requires that the both drivers exhibit much wider bandwidth than we are likely to encounter in reality


I will ask the guys who are years in this threat.

Guys for a low pass filter which impedance I must take and calculate ?  And why ?


----------



## TheLastAurora

amemisome said:


> I think it's just really thin gauge wire with insulation already on it, maybe 28-38AWG? I only know that CEMA Electro acousti Store on aliexpress sells some 28AWG silver+gold or spc wires (which could be too thick at 1.12mm OD?). While I know there's other cable manufacturers that sell high quality wire for DIY stuff, I never really looked that deep into it so I wouldn't know who all sell good quality stuff, especially with such small diameters. Maybe somebody else knows a better alternative.
> Links for the two wires I know of:
> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1000007744883.html
> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33046978735.html
> ...


I found a very interesting (and cheap) cable with various colors on ali. The store seems pretty good too

https://pt.aliexpress.com/item/4000416620463.html?spm=a2g0o.cart.0.0.230b3c00zI8QTY&mp=1


----------



## 528367

Don't need to understand everything  and I can't explain everything. I'm building to 2 years iems and I have destroyed more than 20 drivers from experiments and I'm still learning. This isn't easy at all .

Use vituix , xsim or any other. 
are many  softwares for designing crossovers if you want complicated crossovers. 

many companies they add 14 drivers inside one shell to cover the audio spectrum. Why that ? For resolution or what  ? 

BALANCED ARMATURE DRIVERS HAVE DISADVANTAGES AND MULTI BALANCED ARMATURE IEMS HAVE MORE AND THEY CAN SOUND REALLY  BAD WITH CROSSOVER OR WITHOUT. 


A 3 way iem for example woofer- tweeter- super tweeter can outperform the most iems out there even the most well-known. Even single balanced armature iems can sound better than a BAD multi ba build. 

EVEN A SINGLE DYNAMIC DRIVER CAN OUTPERFORM MANY MULTI BA IEMS .

You decide how it will sound and WHAT  is best for you. 
What i suggest and what I like , maybe you don't like and wasn't exactly what you wanted. 


I will stop helping and suggesting. 
I will only post from now the frequency response graph and the crossover design- tube length - drivers etc and if someone like it then  can copy it.


----------



## Luffytaro

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Type of metal doesn't really matter though
> 
> Just plug anything which has negligible resistance and everything is fine
> 
> Soundlink sells those small thin cable and you can contact them


Th


Right on said:


> Don't need to understand everything  and I can't explain everything. I'm building to 2 years iems and I have destroyed more than 20 drivers from experiments and I'm still learning. This isn't easy at all .
> 
> Use vituix , xsim or any other.
> are many  softwares for designing crossovers if you want complicated crossovers.
> ...


Actually I am building 26e25t with 38D1X. I do not use low pass filter on 38D, so that I listen sound of intrusment is bigger than voice of singer. I am intending add cap 68uF to cut off freq . As I know, low pass filter is: cap is paralell with driver, and add resister to make volume balance among mid and trebble. 

I use fomular: f=1/(2*pi*R*C). 

If just use cap parallel with driver (no add resistor), then R = 1 or R =12 ohm (Rdc of driver)? 

If add both cap and resistor (R2 = 16ohm), R in fomular is: R= Rdc + R2 = 12+16=28 ohm,  correct? Or R=R2=16ohm? 

Sorry for my English is not good . Your knowlegde is really good for me reference.


----------



## Luffytaro

TheLastAurora said:


> I found a very interesting (and cheap) cable with various colors on ali. The store seems pretty good too
> 
> https://pt.aliexpress.com/item/4000416620463.html?spm=a2g0o.cart.0.0.230b3c00zI8QTY&mp=1


I see a lot fiber around copper wire, it really difficult for us solder it on PCB of driver.


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## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


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## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙂


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## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

🙃


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Right on said:


> Is not a good idea of using one cap parallel to the driver without resistor for low pass filter.
> Only one  series cap for High pass filter.
> 
> *RC low pass – how it works*
> ...


RC lowpass works 

Capacitor in parallel of driver act as lowpass(as series act as highpass)

And resistor in series(to attenuate the system and change the F3 or the point of rolloff, or impedance match or impedance setting while crossing)


----------



## 528367 (Feb 17, 2021)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> RC lowpass works
> 
> Capacitor in parallel of driver act as lowpass(as series act as highpass)
> 
> And resistor in series(to attenuate the system and change the F3 or the point of rolloff, or impedance match or impedance setting while crossing)



One cap series is good for high pass filter.
Yes it can act like a fake low pass filter one single cap parallel.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Right on said:


> One cap series is good for high pass filter.
> Yes it can act like a fake low pass filter one single cap parallel.


You don't fake it
Because it shows deviation on impedance same as a series inductor
There is no faking it in circuits mate

Anything which works is truth


----------



## Bassiklee

To the person who broke off a toothpick in a bore several pages back,  nothing sticks to teflon tubing.  It is available in sizes that just so happen to match the tube sizes we tend to use for bores.  I'll let you fill in the rest.


----------



## 528367 (Feb 18, 2021)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> You don't fake it
> Because it shows deviation on impedance same as a series inductor
> There is no faking it in circuits mate
> 
> Anything which works is truth



Is ok .


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Feb 18, 2021)

Right on said:


> It works man like a low pass filter but you can’t understand that one single cap low pas filter ( first order crossover is like no crossover  )
> one single cap is good for for tweeter.
> 
> woofer with 1st order crossover is no Subwoofer.
> ...


It really depends on application mate
I didn't wanna offend you

Take a 38D1XJ 
Measure it's response
Put it in series so you increase driver internal inductance seen by amp and make it high resistive on high frequency

Add a parallel capacitor and you get a lowpass


Dont forget that speaker like BA are highly inductive and they also come into equation, that's why we are able to get everything done by capacitors only and resistor for fine tuning

And there is a reason why 38 is used for woofer and swfk for tweet, it's because of its inductive behaviour and diaphragm size and how voice coil interact with magnets Inside to back volume of driver and vents

Plus I get subbass shelf without even adding damper and crossover on 38 with bass shelf of 150Hz..
It also depends what mid driver you use


----------



## 528367

I will measure it with one one cap parallel to see the impedance raise. 
I have ordered also some smd inductor 10mm length 🙂 i want to make one crossover with inductor for a 2 way iem . I don't know exactly the driver combination.  I have 38dj00, 2389D, SWFK-32255,  38D1XJ00 , EST65QB02 
The inductors are 3,3Mf and 6,8Mf


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Feb 19, 2021)

528367 said:


> I will measure it with one one cap parallel to see the impedance raise.
> I have ordered also some smd inductor 10mm length 🙂 i want to make one crossover with inductor for a 2 way iem . I don't know exactly the driver combination.  I have 38dj00, 2389D, SWFK-32255,  38D1XJ00 , EST65QB02
> The inductors are 3,3Mf and 6,8Mf


Now see the size of the smd inductor

That's why they are not worth much as I can push more driver and reduce IMD and split power between multiple driver of same frequency range.

But it's your way and inductor have its own advantage, if you can fit it all


----------



## 528367

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Now see the size of the smd inductor
> 
> That's why they are not worth much as I can push more driver and reduce IMD and split power between multiple driver of same frequency range.
> 
> But it's your way and inductor have its own advantage, if you can fit it all


These smd inductors are rare. The value is huge. Yes it fits . 
I can use only a 2 way 2 dual drivers to make it fit . This is fun project. 
Only for experiments to see how it will sound.


----------



## Luffytaro

Bassiklee said:


> To the person who broke off a toothpick in a bore several pages back,  nothing sticks to teflon tubing.  It is available in sizes that just so happen to match the tube sizes we tend to use for bores.  I'll let you fill in the rest.



It's me : ). I check all tool I have at that time and only toothpick was fit with ID tube. I did not carefully and make glue stick on it. I tried to rotate the toothpick and it broke : (. I removed faceplate and will make new one.


----------



## 64Audio

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Thanks for your time!!


----------



## amemisome

All of my drivers and shell building stuff arrived yesterday, I tested out the drivers and they all work. Was just testing (no solder or glue) to see how easy the soldering and attaching the tubing was going to be and I'm surprised at how smooth the test went, so I'm hopeful for this first build. I also checked one of the SMD resistors with a multi-meter and it measured very close to the stated value, as expected.
The measurement gear is going to take another 2~5 weeks to arrive and I still need to have my impressions taken, so I'm not quite ready to start just yet. Thanks to everyone for the help so far


----------



## Lucas Taboada

Hi everyone! I've been out of the CIEM world for some time due to the pandemic. I'm not finding the Bellsing 6 driver in any store, even taobao, it isn't available for purchase anymore?

Another question: Is anyone here cataloging the most common buildings from this thread? It would be awesome to have that 'cause it's becoming very difficult to find them with 800+ pages.


----------



## amemisome

Lucas Taboada said:


> Hi everyone! I've been out of the CIEM world for some time due to the pandemic. I'm not finding the Bellsing 6 driver in any store, even taobao, it isn't available for purchase anymore?


I believe it's no longer made, at least that's what I understood from comments about them on here and on reddit. There was a lawsuit by Knowles I believe, not sure if it affected the BS6 specifically though. Somebody else probably knows more about it, since I'm pretty new.



Lucas Taboada said:


> Another question: Is anyone here cataloging the most common buildings from this thread? It would be awesome to have that 'cause it's becoming very difficult to find them with 800+ pages.


I've recently read though a lot of posts here, as I've just stared out. This post is the best TL;DR I've found so far:


eunice said:


> Masm 3 pro https://crcit.net/c/4c8ad023
> 
> BS6 + Zobel https://crcit.net/c/49f54ed9
> 
> ...


Maybe there's other designs this post is missing that I've overlooked, if that's the case I'd also love to hear it.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

amemisome said:


> I believe it's no longer made, at least that's what I understood from comments about them on here and on reddit. There was a lawsuit by Knowles I believe, not sure if it affected the BS6 specifically though. Somebody else probably knows more about it, since I'm pretty new.
> 
> 
> I've recently read though a lot of posts here, as I've just stared out. This post is the best TL;DR I've found so far:
> ...


What do you want to build
Sound profile
Specs
Driver used

Mention that and we would be glad to help you out

Read articles about BA zobel, impedance ratio, frequency analysis, zobelception style build, crossover type and effect on BA

What BA to be used where and requirement of the BA for a specific timbre

Resonantors etc are still out of the reach as it is a game where a lot of variables comes in.(easy to calculate but hard to determine where to put in perpendicular to what tube lenght from the BA)

There is a lot more on this tread except shell building(which is important too)

And it's nice to see universal iem gang coming in as it is not possible for everyone to make custom(especially me with my shaky hands after accident)

Also there is a recent planar build also... Which you guys can check out
Forgot the page though but it's recent


----------



## JEHL

Also seems like thread uses mostly BAs I assume due to simplicity. But what if I wanted to make a hybrid?

I believe the very first build I saw was a 1 6mm DD and a BA which name escapes me atm.


----------



## Wgibson (Feb 25, 2021)

@Aldo40 I owe you an apology, and a thank you, after listening for a while I settled on red dampers on the 31736 like you suggested 

I will post more details soon, but I am close to done with this project now.

Two dual 32257 and one 31736 in a universal shell, with a 1.27mm 2x6 header to pin out the drivers for plug and play circuits.

I cut the wires on the dual 32257 so I could pin out individually, the 31736 I left wired in parallel.

I have... many... hours into this, but it has been a learning experience and I feel the flexibility was worth the hassle.

Still have to double check the acoustic tubing. I have a channel imbalance and I have ruled out electrical issues, so it is either tubing or drivers. I can recreate this project with knowles and bellsing instead of no name drivers, so not too worried about that. After one more check I will totally glue/seal the housings, I did open the vents on the 32257, should I expect a change in low end if I totally seal the shell? I could always heat up a needle and poke a vent if there are negative consequences to being totally sealed.


I will encapsulate the circuits with UV glue so I can safely swap without shorting anything. 

Circuits so far are:

4x series 32257 with a -2db Lpad mostly for impedance correction, .68uf high pass on 31736.

2×2 series/parallel 32257 with 7uf crossover on 31736. The low crossover on 31736 is a lazy impedance correction. But, I can easily try new circuits with the pin out.

Series sounds way better so far. Open to suggestions on different circuits because I can make a new set pretty easily.

I can post freq and impedance graphs if anyone is interested.

My phone software and/or the forum have changed, I can't preview the post anymore or thumbnail/spoiler the pic, 
 so I hope the it attaches and is not huge.

P.s. that was me with the recent planars, very tricky but I do have room eq wizard files with some tuning notes if anybody wants them.

Edit: fixed a typo, and even with an edit I can't fix the pic, sorry.

Another edit: I intentionally flipped the connector on one side so I could build identical circuits for both sides. Got enough problems here without trying to solder mirror images.


----------



## Aldo40 (Feb 25, 2021)

@Wgibson do not apologize, it is a place of exchange nothing more  
For the opening of a shell with a small hole, I think that will be anecdotal to listen, most often open on DD but on BA it is not systematic, it is necessary to try and judge by ear. The best is to make the hole with a dremel with the smallest drill example 1mm and then you have all the time to close the hole with the resin if it never brings anything


----------



## Wgibson

JEHL said:


> Also seems like thread uses mostly BAs I assume due to simplicity. But what if I wanted to make a hybrid?
> 
> I believe the very first build I saw was a 1 6mm DD and a BA which name escapes me atm.



Lots of the cheaper 1DD 1BA hybrids (KZ, TRN, CCA, etc) typically use a 30095 BA with a single cap high pass crossover, wired in parallel with a DD. Sometimes a resistor on the DD to equalize volume, but still pretty simple.

You can fit a 30095 inside most nozzles, but then you might not have room to use dampers. Can still use foam or acoustic fabric to knock off the treble peaks. 

I may try a DD and BA hybrid soon.

Has anyone used planar and electrostatic together in an IEM yet?


----------



## amemisome

Wgibson said:


> Lots of the cheaper 1DD 1BA hybrids (KZ, TRN, CCA, etc) typically use a 30095 BA with a single cap high pass crossover, wired in parallel with a DD. Sometimes a resistor on the DD to equalize volume, but still pretty simple.
> 
> You can fit a 30095 inside most nozzles, but then you might not have room to use dampers. Can still use foam or acoustic fabric to knock off the treble peaks.
> 
> I may try a DD and BA hybrid soon.


If you want to dampen a BA that will go inside the nozzle you may want to try this:


Slater said:


> Guys, I wanted some opinions on this.
> 
> Many budget IEMs (KZ, TRN, etc) have BA treble drivers installed right in the nozzle, directly under the nozzle/earwax screen, with no tubes or dampers at all. _*While I don't need to be reminded that this is NOT the 'right way' to build IEMs*_, it remains a fact that a large number of budget manufacturers practice this behavior whether it is the 'right way' or not. That doesn't mean something can't be done to improve the situation.
> 
> ...


I've tried this on a ZSN and ripped the plasic on the damper filter trying to install it, but if the BA is outside of the shell before building it should be more doable. If I understand it correctly, this way you shouldn't get any of those KZ trademarked treble peaks.

If this is too much effort, I remember that @dhruvmeena96 recently mentioned a good tweeter and said it would work good in a hybrid setup undampened. I just don't remember the page and don't have it saved in my bookmarks.


----------



## AMerePerson (Feb 28, 2021)

Question about DIY/custom IEM size:

Has anyone made an IEM that's (in hearing aid terms) In-The-Canal (ITC), Completely-In-Canal (CIC), or even Invisible (IIC) size?
I think it'd be cool to have an IEM that small for watching videos while lying on my side or for others who are side sleepers and like to listen to music. It'd have to be a single BA design, but it's not like single BA IEMS are bad.


----------



## Luffytaro

Hi all, I solder low pass filter as below, driver parallel with cap but it is not connect together, I can not hear sound, if I remove cap, it work. Could anyone help me on this case?


----------



## Luffytaro

Luffytaro said:


> Hi all, I solder low pass filter as below, driver parallel with cap but it is not connect together, I can not hear sound, if I remove cap, it work. Could anyone help me on this case?


It works, the wire loose connect with jack, : )


----------



## JEHL

Wgibson said:


> Lots of the cheaper 1DD 1BA hybrids (KZ, TRN, CCA, etc) typically use a 30095 BA with a single cap high pass crossover, wired in parallel with a DD. Sometimes a resistor on the DD to equalize volume, but still pretty simple.
> 
> You can fit a 30095 inside most nozzles, but then you might not have room to use dampers. Can still use foam or acoustic fabric to knock off the treble peaks.
> 
> ...


That's what Ive seen but I'd like to try something among the lines of 1DD, 2BA woofer, mid, tweeter or a 1DD, 3BA subwoofer, woofer, mid, tweeter. Wonder if the latter would be a nightmare to make.


----------



## Aldo40

Luffytaro said:


> Hi all, I solder low pass filter as below, driver parallel with cap but it is not connect together, I can not hear sound, if I remove cap, it work. Could anyone help me on this case?


Hi, it seems to me a variable resistance in yellow how you connected it?


----------



## amemisome

JEHL said:


> That's what Ive seen but I'd like to try something among the lines of 1DD, 2BA woofer, mid, tweeter or a 1DD, 3BA subwoofer, woofer, mid, tweeter. Wonder if the latter would be a nightmare to make.


The first idea sounds like a FiiO FH3 or SeeAudio Yume, the most interesting part about these two imo is how they tuned the DD. I've seen some hybrid builds here, though most seem to be made by trial and error with a lot of changing something up inside the shell and measuring the changes, with very few using a 3D printed acoustic structure (to be fair these two companies probably had to go through a lot of trail and error to get to these patented acoustic structure designs).

As a newcomer I can say that the community here is very helpful, if you give an approximate budget for the drivers and the type of sound you're looking for I'm sure somebody will be able to help you in the right direction.


----------



## Luffytaro

Aldo40 said:


> Hi, it seems to me a variable resistance in yellow how you connected it?


Resistance too small, can not solder directly, so I solder it on PCB, then we can easy solder wire on it like picture.


----------



## Aldo40

measurements with and without filters to see what is wrong


----------



## dhruvmeena96

amemisome said:


> The first idea sounds like a FiiO FH3 or SeeAudio Yume, the most interesting part about these two imo is how they tuned the DD. I've seen some hybrid builds here, though most seem to be made by trial and error with a lot of changing something up inside the shell and measuring the changes, with very few using a 3D printed acoustic structure (to be fair these two companies probably had to go through a lot of trail and error to get to these patented acoustic structure designs).
> 
> As a newcomer I can say that the community here is very helpful, if you give an approximate budget for the drivers and the type of sound you're looking for I'm sure somebody will be able to help you in the right direction.


Yellow damp DD till you get a lowpass
Highpass the mid and uppermid driver so that it can have F3 rolling point at 300Hz somewhat and you will get SeeAudio Yume style of bass
Flat mids and then a subbass shelf

Simple

It's the experiment which let us innovate weird stuff


----------



## amemisome

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Yellow damp DD till you get a lowpass
> Highpass the mid and uppermid driver so that it can have F3 rolling point at 300Hz somewhat and you will get SeeAudio Yume style of bass
> Flat mids and then a subbass shelf
> 
> ...


Wait so you can use Knowles dampers on DD's too, that's very interesting and makes hybrid seem much easier than I thought.
What would be the best way to go about this, have an acoustic tube directly connected to one of those DD's with a nozzle in front of the driver and then put the damper in the tube? In that case how would you go about pressure equalization, which I thought was necessary on DD's, is a back vent enough to accomplish that or is there another trick to achieve this?
Amazing to see parts of the tuning of such a hyped set dissected and made easy to understand.

Sorry for mislabeling the innovative experimentation to required trial and error, I still have a lot to learn lol!


----------



## Xymordos

Wgibson said:


> Lots of the cheaper 1DD 1BA hybrids (KZ, TRN, CCA, etc) typically use a 30095 BA with a single cap high pass crossover, wired in parallel with a DD. Sometimes a resistor on the DD to equalize volume, but still pretty simple.
> 
> You can fit a 30095 inside most nozzles, but then you might not have room to use dampers. Can still use foam or acoustic fabric to knock off the treble peaks.
> 
> ...



Personally I opted not to use an electrostat with the Planar due to the size and that the planar driver has huge treble presence from 8khz up. Would be interesting to try though.


----------



## Aldo40

amemisome said:


> Wait so you can use Knowles dampers on DD's too, that's very interesting and makes hybrid seem much easier than I thought.
> What would be the best way to go about this, have an acoustic tube directly connected to one of those DD's with a nozzle in front of the driver and then put the damper in the tube? In that case how would you go about pressure equalization, which I thought was necessary on DD's, is a back vent enough to accomplish that or is there another trick to achieve this?
> Amazing to see parts of the tuning of such a hyped set dissected and made easy to understand.
> 
> Sorry for mislabeling the innovative experimentation to required trial and error, I still have a lot to learn lol!


a hole in the shell is enough to decompress a DD that uses a tube to the nozzle.

Some put a PVC tube glued behind the DD vent to decompress it directly outside the shell, it is mandatory if you use the DD without tube(tubeless)


----------



## Luffytaro

This is my build after make low pass filter, bass really balance with treb and mid.


----------



## Wgibson

@Luffytaro looking good, what were the build details, do you have curves?


----------



## Luffytaro

Wgibson said:


> @Luffytaro looking good, what were the build details, do you have curves?


No, i don't. Combine 26E25t and 38DX.


----------



## mattmatt

Luffytaro said:


> This is my build after make low pass filter, bass really balance with treb and mid.


Looks great! What did you use to color the shells?


----------



## Luffytaro

mattmatt said:


> Looks great! What did you use to color the shells?


I mix it with UV glue, curing at least 20 mins to dry completely.


----------



## Starman2

I'm building my first set of diems that I plan to print on a Form 3 with clear resin. My process so far has been: 3d scan with laser scanner > meshlab to clean, offset, and smooth > meshmixer to trim, blend, hollow, add tubes, and split faceplate. I bought all other parts from mc.ear including GV drivers, MMCX connectors, and dampers.

I have a few questions for anyone that has used the 3d printed method with success:

Have you tried only offsetting only the surfaces in the ear canal instead of the entire shell? If so, any tips on how and where to blend that offset into the rest of the shell. It seems like this could be a big advantage of 3D printing over the manual method of cutting and wax dipping to improve comfort. I plan to use a 0.15mm offset per face before lacquer coating
Has anyone tried inlayed graphics? I'm thinking of filling a groove in the print with pigment mixed with epoxy before the lacquer coat
What clearance works well for 2mm OD acoustic tube? I currently have 2.3mm holes in the shell
Any recommendations or notes on placement of the dampers? I went with brown (1000ohm) for the highs and orange (3300ohm) for the low side. I plan to run 2mm tubes through the shell since I have tiny ear canals
I bought a single 3W 365nm UV LED for curing the faceplate glue and lack3. Will this be enough power to cure the glue and lacquer through on a clear shell?


```

```


----------



## Aldo40

Starman2 said:


> I'm building my first set of diems that I plan to print on a Form 3 with clear resin. My process so far has been: 3d scan with laser scanner > meshlab to clean, offset, and smooth > meshmixer to trim, blend, hollow, add tubes, and split faceplate. I bought all other parts from mc.ear including GV drivers, MMCX connectors, and dampers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hello, why you use Meshlab while Meshmixer allows you to do everything 

Which 3D scanner did you use?

thank you


----------



## Starman2

Aldo40 said:


> Hello, why you use Meshlab while Meshmixer allows you to do everything
> 
> Which 3D scanner did you use?
> 
> thank you


I'm a pretty big fan of the tools for cleaning point clouds, surface reconstruction, and smoothing in meshlab.  The taubin low pass filter is great for smoothing texture without significantly changing the shape of the scan compared to Laplacian smoothing.  

I have access to a romer arm with laser scanner, so I used that.  It's a bit overkill for this, but it is nice to have 25um accuracy in the scan!


----------



## Aldo40

ok I see

I do everything with meshmixer and it goes very well 

I used meshlab before


----------



## Wgibson (Mar 5, 2021)

How do people implement DTECS? Or anything with a peak between 1-2k?

Damp it and let that peak lead into the 2-3k peak of your mid/high drivers?

Use for mids only, with a separate low driver and mid/high driver(s)? (Edit: that are both louder than the DTEC, so series resist or Lpad the DTEC?)

Nobody really wants a peak starting at less than 2k, right?

Got a few cheap ones and just measured them: 31985, 31323, 30265. All pretty similar.

Maybe good for a hybrid project with dynamic for low end and some other BAs for mid/high?


----------



## JEHL

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Yellow damp DD till you get a lowpass
> Highpass the mid and uppermid driver so that it can have F3 rolling point at 300Hz somewhat and you will get SeeAudio Yume style of bass
> Flat mids and then a subbass shelf
> 
> ...


Noob question. How much does my choice of DD matter for this?


----------



## Luffytaro

Hello you guys, I am intending order coupler 711 on aliexpress to measure my build, we only use coupler connect with the computer to work, or need a device to transfer signal to computer? 

I see video below have a board to connect ciem with computer to measure.


----------



## amemisome

Luffytaro said:


> Hello you guys, I am intending order coupler 711 on aliexpress to measure my build, we only use coupler connect with the computer to work, or need a device to transfer signal to computer?
> 
> I see video below have a board to connect ciem with computer to measure.



The one I ordered had written in the description that it only had a normal 3.5 mic cable, so if you don't have one of those ports on your computer you may need either a splitter or usb to mic adapter. I don't have one on my laptop, so I bought a ~$5 usb hub that the seller I bought from also sold.

Interesting video btw, very in depth but I only don't understand why they would graph drivers and the final product with steps of 20dB?


----------



## mattmatt

Luffytaro said:


> Hello you guys, I am intending order coupler 711 on aliexpress to measure my build, we only use coupler connect with the computer to work, or need a device to transfer signal to computer?
> 
> I see video below have a board to connect ciem with computer to measure.



you'll need a soundcard with both input and output. they have to be calibrated with each other.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

JEHL said:


> Noob question. How much does my choice of DD matter for this?


Depends

Just dont use tweeting DD and double damping will make it act as subwoofer enclosure


----------



## Luffytaro

mattmatt said:


> you'll need a soundcard with both input and output. they have to be calibrated with each other.


Could you please share your setup picture?


----------



## Luffytaro

amemisome said:


> The one I ordered had written in the description that it only had a normal 3.5 mic cable, so if you don't have one of those ports on your computer you may need either a splitter or usb to mic adapter. I don't have one on my laptop, so I bought a ~$5 usb hub that the seller I bought from also sold.
> 
> Interesting video btw, very in depth but I only don't understand why they would graph drivers and the final product with steps of 20dB?


You mean that if we have soundcard inside computer and have 3.5 or usb port, we only need to buy coupler 711 to measure?


----------



## Luffytaro

Hi all

I am testing to see the different between among without resistor,    series resistor and parallel resistor with 38D1X. I dont have any device or tool to measure, poor me . 

I use a resistor 12ohm, the sound output of 3 cases above are quite similar (mostly volume are equal). I thought if resistor parallel with driver, Zsum <12, --> power is increase--> sound will be bigger. But might I am wrong : (. 

But if I make low pass filter on this driver ( cap 68mF paralell, resistor 12ohm series), the sound is really small. So, resistor just work to tuning the sound when we apply it in high or low pass filter, corect? Or I'm wrong somewhere and dont recognize? Hope every get my point : )


----------



## amemisome

Luffytaro said:


> You mean that if we have soundcard inside computer and have 3.5 or usb port, we only need to buy coupler 711 to measure?


If you have a soundcard in your computer with a dedicated 3.5 mic in and dedicated 3.5 stereo out it should be fine. I would not count on the 711 to come with a USB mic unless stated differently in the item desctiption.
Having the soundcard's input and output calibrated like @mattmatt suggested would be optimal, but to get it to even work you will at least need a dedicated 3.5 mic in and 3.5 stereo out. Most decent modern soundcards or PC's in general should have a dedicated 3.5 mic in, so you will probably be fine unless you use a 10 year old laptop like me.


----------



## Wgibson

For frequency graphs I use a USBc hidizs dac, and dayton imm6 mic on USB. For impedance, use the hidizs out and an impedance jig 3.5mm input to the mic port on my PC's sound card. Both calibrated in room eq wizard. Pretty straight forward, and making the impedance jig is simple compared to wiring IEMs. You should make the jig first in my opinion, practice your wiring, soldering, and troubleshooting.


----------



## mattmatt

If you guys need any simple help, I might be of help. Just send me a message.


----------



## discus123 (Mar 16, 2021)

Hi all, anybody have tried this set of BA, 38AM / 37AP / 2x32254,  I wanna reduce 3-5 more db on bass.  I have used a very big value of resistor already, but it still cannot lower the output on bass.  Besides series of resistor, any method of wiring can tame the volume of output of 38AM. Thanks all.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

discus123 said:


> Hi all, anybody have tried this set of BA, 38AM / 37AP / 2x32254,  I wanna reduce 3-5 more db on bass.  I have used a very big value of resistor already, but it still cannot lower the output on bass.  Besides series of resistor, any method of wiring can tame the volume of output of 38AM. Thanks all.


Make a bass leak tube with damper in it


----------



## Xymordos

discus123 said:


> Hi all, anybody have tried this set of BA, 38AM / 37AP / 2x32254,  I wanna reduce 3-5 more db on bass.  I have used a very big value of resistor already, but it still cannot lower the output on bass.  Besides series of resistor, any method of wiring can tame the volume of output of 38AM. Thanks all.




What are your crossover values? o.O


----------



## musmecca

discus123 said:


> Hi all, anybody have tried this set of BA, 38AM / 37AP / 2x32254,  I wanna reduce 3-5 more db on bass.  I have used a very big value of resistor already, but it still cannot lower the output on bass.  Besides series of resistor, any method of wiring can tame the volume of output of 38AM. Thanks all.


A very simple way on the 38 is to tape over the vents. I've also found it increases the speed.


discus123 said:


> Hi all, anybody have tried this set of BA, 38AM / 37AP / 2x32254,  I wanna reduce 3-5 more db on bass.  I have used a very big value of resistor already, but it still cannot lower the output on bass.  Besides series of resistor, any method of wiring can tame the volume of output of 38AM. Thanks all.


A very easy way to drop some db's on a 38 is to tape over the vents. It also increases the speed. I've done this on a few projects to great effect plus it's quite easy.


----------



## Wgibson

Try an L-pad


----------



## Aldo40 (Mar 15, 2021)

discus123 said:


> Hi all, anybody have tried this set of BA, 38AM / 37AP / 2x32254,  I wanna reduce 3-5 more db on bass.  I have used a very big value of resistor already, but it still cannot lower the output on bass.  Besides series of resistor, any method of wiring can tame the volume of output of 38AM. Thanks all.


I don’t know how you filtered your two 32254, but I think they need more ammorting. Do you have a long enough tube on them and a red filter?


----------



## discus123

I used this as my sample to fine tune my set of BAs. 38AM at start I used 20R but bass too much. I then added by 10R plus another 10R, the final FR I used is 100R. I guess the tube length for 38AM is too short, it needs to add at least 4-5mm more.

I have tried L-pad also, it did lower the output of bass but worst is it changed the clarity and transparency of sound also, that's my own feeling, so I give up.

I did use the long tube for 2x32254 for the final FR,  I tried from 60mm then cut every 2mm for test till as short as 12mm. Yes,  I used the red damper for 2x32254.

For final, I will try longer tube for 38AM if still not work, I will try @dhruvmeena96 method to leak some bass.  Tape the vent of 38AM is a very good idea, you alarming me, thanks @musmecca, I will try it also.  Thanks so much everybody.
 ​


----------



## Xymordos

discus123 said:


> I used this as my sample to fine tune my set of BAs. 38AM at start I used 20R but bass too much. I then added by 10R plus another 10R, the final FR I used is 100R. I guess the tube length for 38AM is too short, it needs to add at least 4-5mm more.
> 
> I have tried L-pad also, it did lower the output of bass but worst is it changed the clarity and transparency of sound also, that's my own feeling, so I give up.
> 
> ...


Or perhaps try a higher value damper for the 38?


----------



## mattmatt

Xymordos said:


> Or perhaps try a higher value damper for the 38?


I think that won't reduce SPL that much but only reduce upper frequencies around 5-9k i guess. 

Taping the vent would be my best bet along with a voltage divider. 


discus123 said:


> I used this as my sample to fine tune my set of BAs. 38AM at start I used 20R but bass too much. I then added by 10R plus another 10R, the final FR I used is 100R. I guess the tube length for 38AM is too short, it needs to add at least 4-5mm more.
> 
> I have tried L-pad also, it did lower the output of bass but worst is it changed the clarity and transparency of sound also, that's my own feeling, so I give up.
> 
> ...


Let us know how the leak works. With my experiments, this doesn't reduce much SPL on midbass but only reduces 50hz below if I remember correctly. It will reduce the reach from bottom end but still have that bloom because the midbass will be retained.


----------



## Xymordos

mattmatt said:


> I think that won't reduce SPL that much but only reduce upper frequencies around 5-9k i guess.
> 
> Taping the vent would be my best bet along with a voltage divider.
> 
> Let us know how the leak works. With my experiments, this doesn't reduce much SPL on midbass but only reduces 50hz below if I remember correctly. It will reduce the reach from bottom end but still have that bloom because the midbass will be retained.



I think a yellow damper (or two) should help reduce the amount of mid-bass he is hearing. The leak probably wouldn't work as well since it'll roll off the subbass more and it looks like its already rolled off anyways.


----------



## mattmatt

Xymordos said:


> I think a yellow damper (or two) should help reduce the amount of mid-bass he is hearing. The leak probably wouldn't work as well since it'll roll off the subbass more and it looks like its already rolled off anyways.


I haven't tried to measure it actually but looking at how the dampers work, even with yellow on a double CI. What I saw if I remember correctly just tapers off the upper freq. (Noble K10). Didn't try to test it further but a few brands use double yellow on their woofer (QDC and Thieaudio)


----------



## Wgibson

Low pass with large capacitor value (100+uf.) And/or you could try a very small ID tube, basically an orifice - 0.2-0.4mm ID.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

I think you already got your answer above
All other member did it for you


----------



## kkugel

Hey guys,
I'm a complete beginner and know basically nothing about electronics but have good DIY skills. I can solder and the like.

I want to build my own IEM. It's going to have a premade 3D printed shell and I want to use the new double Sonion EST drivers in it. I'd like to do a DD + 2EST or DD+2BA+2EST Setup. The main thing holding me back is that I have no clue how to design a crossover and I figure it's even more complicated when I want to use 3 kinds of drivers. Can anyone point me in the right direction?


----------



## seijisandrei

Hi guys,

I have completed my project. Thanks to my mentors @dhruvmeena96 and @piotrus-g. 

I love it but I wanna do more. I used CI, ED, TWFK, and Kinera's BA (tweeter). It sounded nice. Vocals are clear and forward. Highs are crystal like. Bass is there but I can't feel it hahaha. I've put 2 lpf on the CI, then the rest were capacitors.

I wanna experiment more. I need good advice. I'm thinking of putting a 6mm dd from KZ's DQ6. Is it possible to put a LPF on it? and how big should the vent on the shell be?

Thanks guys!


----------



## dhruvmeena96

seijisandrei said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I have completed my project. Thanks to my mentors @dhruvmeena96 and @piotrus-g.
> 
> ...


Oooohhh KZ DQ6

Use the single 6mm as fullrange.. seal the back vent to reduce bass from it

And 10mm tube and damper as needed

For 10mm DD 
Use longest tube possible and yellow.
No need to highpass and lowpass plus DD are inherently lower distortion than BA counterpart plus it's more oriented toward 2nd order.

After doing this
Add a leak tube and add damping to it..
Done

Plus you save extra 6mm driver for any other projects


----------



## seijisandrei

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Oooohhh KZ DQ6
> 
> Use the single 6mm as fullrange.. seal the back vent to reduce bass from it
> 
> ...


Oooh so I can use both the 6mm and 10mm on my current setup --> ci-22955 + ed-29869 + twfk-30017 + kinera 30095? 

I'm excited to do thiiiiiis!  Am I correct that I need to drill a vent hole?

What is a leak tube? I'm just waiting to complete my materials then Imma go crazy again haha!


----------



## dhruvmeena96

seijisandrei said:


> Oooh so I can use both the 6mm and 10mm on my current setup --> ci-22955 + ed-29869 + twfk-30017 + kinera 30095?
> 
> I'm excited to do thiiiiiis!  Am I correct that I need to drill a vent hole?
> 
> What is a leak tube? I'm just waiting to complete my materials then Imma go crazy again haha!


a tube from front(ear nozzle) going through faceplate at back
yes you need to drill

and for DD build
i feel
its better to use 10mm and 6mm 
and if you want to really add BA
add kinera 30095 at 1uF


----------



## seijisandrei (Mar 19, 2021)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> a tube from front(ear nozzle) going through faceplate at back
> yes you need to drill
> 
> and for DD build
> ...


Ah so the DD build is a separate build? I thought I can use them all in one build haha because CI cannot give the bass I am hoping for


----------



## Wgibson

Depends how much you can fit in the shell, and how complicated you want the electrical side to be.

CI takes up a bunch of space so if it doesn't do what you want, maybe remove it and replace with a DD.


----------



## seijisandrei

Wgibson said:


> Depends how much you can fit in the shell, and how complicated you want the electrical side to be.
> 
> CI takes up a bunch of space so if it doesn't do what you want, maybe remove it and replace with a DD.



I relatively have a big shell but the problem is yes the electronics. And I have a qdc type of 2 pin which has a very very small pin to solder on


----------



## Luffytaro

Hi all, this is my new build, really like black color. By the way, do anyone have experience to prevent bubble during coat and curing lacquer? I'm using lack 3 from Dreve. 

Thanks


----------



## Aldo40 (Mar 20, 2021)

Luffytaro said:


> Hi all, this is my new build, really like black color. By the way, do anyone have experience to prevent bubble during coat and curing lacquer? I'm using lack 3 from Dreve.
> 
> Thanks


Nice work!

for bubbles, it is necessary to sand the hull example P240-P320, well cleaned the hull has isopropanol and then a layer of lake 3 followed by a second layer.

then UV for 10 minutes

I also see that you have pinholes on the faceplates, it’s a lack of surface preparation, we also have them oily hands naturally so use gloves, polish well and clean your surface well you will not have any rejection like that


----------



## seijisandrei

Luffytaro said:


> Hi all, this is my new build, really like black color. By the way, do anyone have experience to prevent bubble during coat and curing lacquer? I'm using lack 3 from Dreve.
> 
> Thanks


This is so nice! How long did you expose the black colored resin?


----------



## Luffytaro

seijisandrei said:


> This is so nice! How long did you expose the black colored resin?


About 2 hour for shell and cover, might I used wrong ingredient color, too long for curing. I will try  with another black color.


----------



## Luffytaro

Aldo40 said:


> Nice work!
> 
> for bubbles, it is necessary to sand the hull example P240-P320, well cleaned the hull has isopropanol and then a layer of lake 3 followed by a second layer.
> 
> ...


Thanks, I used p500, you mean 2  times lack 3 and cure in 1 time, right? Because lack 3 can not smooth if we apply on surface polished.


----------



## seijisandrei

Luffytaro said:


> About 2 hour for shell and cover, might I used wrong ingredient color, too long for curing. I will try  with another black color.


That's too long indeed. What UV light do you use? How many watts?


----------



## Luffytaro

seijisandrei said:


> That's too long indeed. What UV light do you use? How many watts?


Nail UV, 36W, actually black ink I used is not really good, it is not loose like water, it is same toothpaste, so I think it make long time for cure.


----------



## seijisandrei

Luffytaro said:


> Nail UV, 36W, actually black ink I used is not really good, it is not loose like water, it is same toothpaste, so I think it make long time for cure.


I see, I haven't tried exposing resin with color yet.  but I know that it is relatively longer. I only expose clear uv resin for 60 seconds. And this exposure already has thick walls.


----------



## Kulgrinda

Aldo40 said:


> Nice work!
> 
> for bubbles, it is necessary to sand the hull example P240-P320, well cleaned the hull has isopropanol and then a layer of lake 3 followed by a second layer.
> 
> ...


I also have issues with lacquer. I usually do not buff shells before applying clear coat, I just sand them with 600 grit sanding paper and clean it with alcohol - that way lacquer is  supposed to stick better. I apply shell evenly and then cure it for 10 minutes. Then sometimes during the curing so uncovered spots start appearing - which is understandable - clear coat is not yet solid and it might be "moving around" a bit. However I noticed an even more strange phenomenon when after applying and curing lacquer ideally after 2-3 months some uncovered spots start appearing. That I do not understand.

Also - how do you apply 2 layers of lacquer? Do you cure it for a while between layers? Too thick application starts running.


----------



## Max spl

Hi everybody.  I'm new here but I have some experience. 
My driver combination is two 38D1XJ00 , 25 ohm parallel - series  connection with a 47 uf cap parallel, red damper for bass, one 2389D series connection with a 47 uf cap , red damper for midrange and one 2389D center tap series connection with a 2,2 uf cap, white damper for tweeter. 
My question is tubing. I have troubles with tubing.  My last builds was single or dual tubing with no issues.  Now I want to pass 3 tubes in the soundlinks iem shell but the pvc tubes are too thick. can't pass 3x 1.5 mm tubes .Any help about tubing or any other type of tubes with thin walls ?
Thx


----------



## Aldo40

Luffytaro said:


> Thanks, I used p500, you mean 2  times lack 3 and cure in 1 time, right? Because lack 3 can not smooth if we apply on surface polished.


Yes two successive layers and then only once under UV for 10 minutes on a motor, example 12tr/min for mine . I also glass surfboard and for the.gloss, the rule is important, when varnish, it needs a surface of hanging so do not varnish on a surface already varnished or polished.


----------



## mattmatt

Luffytaro said:


> Hi all, this is my new build, really like black color. By the way, do anyone have experience to prevent bubble during coat and curing lacquer? I'm using lack 3 from Dreve.
> 
> Thanks


Like what Aldo40 said, you need to prep your surface really well.

I always sand my shells with 240 grit and make sure that every crevice is hit with the sandpaper then I sand it with a 3M green scour pads to make it more even. I then clean it thoroughly and I mean, really thoroughly. Not a single speck of dust, lint, oil or grime because that will compromise your finish.

As for applying, I only apply 1 layer but I make sure that layer is perfect. I have two methods for this:

1. Brushing. Make sure that you have a good amount on the brush. If your brush is too dry, it will leave streaks and possible to create bubbles. Brush really slowly, perpendicular with the surface as much as possible. Always coat your brush after 1-3 strokes. If ever you have bubbles or dust settling you can try to remove them with lightly tapping it with the with little to no amount of lacquer. You can try to lift it with a pin/needle. You can also try removing it with the tip of a thin rolled tissue. You can pop bubbles with a really quick pass of lighter flame.

2. Airbrushing. With this method, it is a lot quicker and less prone to surface imperfections once done right. Tho it may(or may not be) a lot more expensive due to excess spray. You can check out my sample on page 790. 

I let it spin for a while hanging to let lacquer even itself out. My motor speed is around 30rpm the cure it in my chamber for around 4 mins(this is subjective with your setup)

Looks great tho! Did you apply the foil during casting or after casting the shell?


----------



## kkugel

Max spl said:


> Hi everybody.  I'm new here but I have some experience.
> My driver combination is two 38D1XJ00 , 25 ohm parallel - series  connection with a 47 uf cap parallel, red damper for bass, one 2389D series connection with a 47 uf cap , red damper for midrange and one 2389D center tap series connection with a 2,2 uf cap, white damper for tweeter.
> My question is tubing. I have troubles with tubing.  My last builds was single or dual tubing with no issues.  Now I want to pass 3 tubes in the soundlinks iem shell but the pvc tubes are too thick. can't pass 3x 1.5 mm tubes .Any help about tubing or any other type of tubes with thin walls ?
> Thx


Sounds cool, I'm trying to do something with the 2389D too


----------



## Max spl

kkugel said:


> Sounds cool, I'm trying to do something with the 2389D too


Is a very Good driver as midrange and as tweeter . It has loads of power. !  Are you gonna use the 2389D as tweeter , midrange or full range ?


----------



## kkugel

Max spl said:


> Is a very Good driver as midrange and as tweeter . It has loads of power. !  Are you gonna use the 2389D as tweeter , midrange or full range ?


I'll use 38DJ007Mi as bass, 2389D as midrange and EST65QB02 as tweeter

Ps. psst this is a budget Oriolus Traillii replica


----------



## seijisandrei

Hi guys,

Can anyone recommend how to group solder 4-5 litz wires? The qdc type 2 pin is a pain in the ass :'(


----------



## Wgibson

seijisandrei said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Can anyone recommend how to group solder 4-5 litz wires? The qdc type 2 pin is a pain in the ass :'(



You might have better luck making driver assemblies, soldering multiple drivers together with shorter wires, then just take one or two wires to the pin instead of 4-5. You can even b7000 glue drivers together, just make sure you know how they will fit into the shell first.

But to answer the question, solder wires, twist together up to the solder joint, lightly crimp solder with pliers (one time, then again 90* to that) quickly reflow the solder, twist wires tight again, then solder to the pin (with some flux added to the pin so it sticks.)


----------



## mattmatt

seijisandrei said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Can anyone recommend how to group solder 4-5 litz wires? The qdc type 2 pin is a pain in the ass :'(


Pre-tin all wires and connectors. Then solder by pair. Twist the pair a bit then solder to another pair.  That's how I do mine. Make sure you solder each pair as flat to each other as possible. I can get away with not twisting them after soldering but it helps when you'll solder multiple pairs. It takes absolute time and patience but once you get the hang of it, it will be like your 2nd nature.


----------



## Luffytaro

mattmatt said:


> Like what Aldo40 said, you need to prep your surface really well.
> 
> I always sand my shells with 240 grit and make sure that every crevice is hit with the sandpaper then I sand it with a 3M green scour pads to make it more even. I then clean it thoroughly and I mean, really thoroughly. Not a single speck of dust, lint, oil or grime because that will compromise your finish.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your tip. I will try on my first custom.


----------



## seijisandrei

mattmatt said:


> Pre-tin all wires and connectors. Then solder by pair. Twist the pair a bit then solder to another pair.  That's how I do mine. Make sure you solder each pair as flat to each other as possible. I can get away with not twisting them after soldering but it helps when you'll solder multiple pairs. It takes absolute time and patience but once you get the hang of it, it will be like your 2nd nature.


Thanks @mattmatt and @Wgibson. I have used litz so I can practice these techniques. Thanks again!


----------



## tomekk




----------



## seijisandrei

Wgibson said:


> You might have better luck making driver assemblies, soldering multiple drivers together with shorter wires


Wait, but this is same as wiring drivers in series?


----------



## Wgibson

seijisandrei said:


> Wait, but this is same as wiring drivers in series?



 It can be series or parallel. This is more complicated, but you can see the smaller drivers together, are wired in parallel with only one pair of wires going to the rest of the circuit.



Spoiler


----------



## seijisandrei

Wgibson said:


> It can be series or parallel. This is more complicated, but you can see the smaller drivers together, are wired in parallel with only one pair of wires going to the rest of the circuit.
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler


I see, I'll explore it out. Thank you so much!


----------



## Wgibson

I usually draw a circuit diagram first, then sketch more of a physical diagram, see what works best.

Parallel connection you could run all drivers individually to the pin, or you could wire all drivers to each other and then run just one set of wires to the pin, same result.

Either way be careful and test it first, if you need to reverse polarity of one driver, it can be a problem if you already wired them together with short wires.


----------



## musmecca

Wgibson said:


> It can be series or parallel. This is more complicated, but you can see the smaller drivers together, are wired in parallel with only one pair of wires going to the rest of the circuit.
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler


Interesting switchable crossover......tell me more!


----------



## Wgibson

musmecca said:


> Interesting switchable crossover......tell me more!



Not quite done yet, graphs and more details soon 

3 bore, it is assembled but I need to pick a damper for the high tube and probably orifice the low tube for sharper bass rolloff. Switch 1 is a bass boost, variable with the trimpot. Switch 2 cuts low mids (adds caps in to the low pass crossover.)

Knowles 33803 (30017 with high pass crossover built in) full range Sonion mid, and Sonion low, similar to a CI but I vented it by filing off a corner. So 4BA total.


----------



## mattmatt

Wgibson said:


> I usually draw a circuit diagram first, then sketch more of a physical diagram, see what works best.
> 
> Parallel connection you could run all drivers individually to the pin, or you could wire all drivers to each other and then run just one set of wires to the pin, same result.
> 
> Either way be careful and test it first, if you need to reverse polarity of one driver, it can be a problem if you already wired them together with short wires.


Problem will be if there are multiple crossovers driver say one per driver each.


----------



## seijisandrei

Wgibson said:


> Not quite done yet, graphs and more details soon
> 
> 3 bore, it is assembled but I need to pick a damper for the high tube and probably orifice the low tube for sharper bass rolloff. Switch 1 is a bass boost, variable with the trimpot. Switch 2 cuts low mids (adds caps in to the low pass crossover.)
> 
> Knowles 33803 (30017 with high pass crossover built in) full range Sonion mid, and Sonion low, similar to a CI but I vented it by filing off a corner. So 4BA total.



I wanna learn how to do this so I can adapt this on my next project probably after a year lol. This stuff is so fun to do but not fun for my wallet.



mattmatt said:


> Problem will be if there are multiple crossovers driver say one per driver each.


Yes this is my case, I have lpf for woofers and capacitors for the remaining drivers. I tried planning but there are still about 5 litz for positive and 5 for ground.


----------



## mattmatt

seijisandrei said:


> I wanna learn how to do this so I can adapt this on my next project probably after a year lol. This stuff is so fun to do but not fun for my wallet.
> 
> 
> Yes this is my case, I have lpf for woofers and capacitors for the remaining drivers. I tried planning but there are still about 5 litz for positive and 5 for ground.


If that's the case and still want to go on with 1 wire along all drivers you can place the XOVER directly on the driver like this or even wire the XOVER to the pads and adhere to the BA body and run the wire along the XOVER. There are multiple ways to go around this.


----------



## seijisandrei

mattmatt said:


> If that's the case and still want to go on with 1 wire along all drivers you can place the XOVER directly on the driver like this or even wire the XOVER to the pads and adhere to the BA body and run the wire along the XOVER. There are multiple ways to go around this.


But this is a series setup right? Will the series and parallel setup have the same sound?


----------



## mattmatt

seijisandrei said:


> But this is a series setup right? Will the series and parallel setup have the same sound?


Its still wired as parallel.


----------



## Max spl

seijisandrei said:


> But this is a series setup right? Will the series and parallel setup have the same sound?


Series will effect the sound and parallel will also effect the sound. It depends the crossover , the impedance of the drivers , the spl and voltage.

I know for sure that this connection ( see foto below ) isn't a good idea.


----------



## Wgibson

Can someone sketch a few options for an RC low pass on a woofer, with other drivers wired in parallel? If all drivers are in parallel, a low pass capacitor in parallel will low pass all of them...


----------



## Max spl (Mar 26, 2021)

Wgibson said:


> Can someone sketch a few options for an RC low pass on a woofer, with other drivers wired in parallel? If all drivers are in parallel, a low pass capacitor in parallel will low pass all of them...


First image is a first order crossover.

Second image is second order lowpass filter , midrange and tweeter first order highpass filters.

Third image is second order low pass with series connection 2x woofers ,  second order  bandpass( midpass ) filter and second order high pass filter.

All are connected in parallel.


----------



## Wgibson (Mar 27, 2021)

@Max spl perfect, thanks. I had been trying to use the mid full range (no crossover) so it was also getting low passed.

Edit: I guess high pass on the mid can help you set a nice steep bass shelf, like a Harman curve.


----------



## kkugel

Anyone know a source where I can get Universal empty IEM shells for 2 Pin connectors? I only find 3D printed ones for MMCX. Searching on Taobao does not really yield results, as I don't speak chinese and don't know what to type in


----------



## Wgibson (Mar 27, 2021)

kkugel said:


> Anyone know a source where I can get Universal empty IEM shells for 2 Pin connectors? I only find 3D printed ones for MMCX. Searching on Taobao does not really yield results, as I don't speak chinese and don't know what to type in



I use a hot knife to modify them for 2 pin connectors, it's not too difficult just be careful. Also can't find those on taobao, and I have looked a lot.

Edit: example:


----------



## seijisandrei

Hi again,

Can anyone teach how to tin litz wire cut in half?


----------



## kkugel

seijisandrei said:


> Hi again,
> 
> Can anyone teach how to tin litz wire cut in half?


Depends on if it has laquer on, just sand the laquer off at the area you wanna tin, heat it up with your solder iron and push tin against the wire while heating it up, will soak up the tin.


----------



## Max spl

Wgibson said:


> @Max spl perfect, thanks. I had been trying to use the mid full range (no crossover) so it was also getting low passed.


First image the fullrange driver is low passed. 

Second image the full range isn't low passed. 


Wgibson said:


> Edit: I guess high pass on the mid can help you set a nice steep bass shelf, like a Harman curve.


Yes , for the bass shelf also . The reasons I personally cap all drivers is for the impedance that amplifier sees. All drivers with caps, the amplifier doesn't see them connected all in parallel which is not the best and I don't recommend but each driver has its own impedance at the desired frequencies and the performance of the driver’s increases a lot in compression with non Caped drivers. 

Also no caps with 2 different drivers ( woofer- fullrange ) merged in one tube, each driver may cancel each other with a result a muffled dark sound .


Also check this link.  Is a calculator for power sharing in parallel. 

http://brianswatton.co.uk/Speaker_Impedance.htm


----------



## seijisandrei

kkugel said:


> Depends on if it has laquer on, just sand the laquer off at the area you wanna tin, heat it up with your solder iron and push tin against the wire while heating it up, will soak up the tin.


I got the litz wires from soundlink. It's already tinned, however I want to cut it into shorter wires for my crossovers so that the cable/wire management will be more manageable.


----------



## Max spl

seijisandrei said:


> I got the litz wires from soundlink. It's already tinned, however I want to cut it into shorter wires for my crossovers so that the cable/wire management will be more manageable.


To cut soundlinks wire isn't possible my opinion. Better to buy shorter wires.


----------



## seijisandrei

Max spl said:


> To cut soundlinks wire isn't possible my opinion. Better to buy shorter wires.


Oh no, that's so sad. Thanks for the reply.


----------



## Luffytaro

Hi all, this is my first ciem, I build with 3D koi fish. The lacquer look better than previous one, indeed must sand shell stritcly to get smooth surface after lacquer. 

Do you all have experience with black color? I mix with uv glue. But after UV, its still not dry completely inside although outside is hard.


----------



## Luffytaro (Mar 27, 2021)

seijisandrei said:


> Oh no, that's so sad. Thanks fo


Melt solder on solder tip, deep wire in it


----------



## mattmatt

Luffytaro said:


> Hi all, this is my first ciem, I build with 3D koi fish. The lacquer look better than previous one, indeed must sand shell stritcly to get smooth surface after lacquer.
> 
> Do you all have experience with black color? I mix with uv glue. But after UV, its still not dry completely inside although outside is hard.


Looks great! Keep on building.


----------



## Xymordos

Luffytaro said:


> Hi all, this is my first ciem, I build with 3D koi fish. The lacquer look better than previous one, indeed must sand shell stritcly to get smooth surface after lacquer.
> 
> Do you all have experience with black color? I mix with uv glue. But after UV, its still not dry completely inside although outside is hard.



Oh damn that fish looks super cool, how did you do it?


----------



## kkugel

seijisandrei said:


> I got the litz wires from soundlink. It's already tinned, however I want to cut it into shorter wires for my crossovers so that the cable/wire management will be more manageable.


Alright, then just do as I said, will work fine


----------



## Luffytaro

Xymordos said:


> Oh damn that fish looks super cool, how did you do it?


Just place a fish in face plate, bro.: )


----------



## Wgibson

I always put flux on the litz wire before tinning, no other prep, works great. Scrape some flux up with a razor blade and put into the wire, then solder.


----------



## seijisandrei

Will there be a difference if I use 2-3 wires from the pin to 1 pad of the driver? Say 3 wires from the pin to CI's positive connection? Or it's just stupid?


----------



## mattmatt

seijisandrei said:


> Will there be a difference if I use 2-3 wires from the pin to 1 pad of the driver? Say 3 wires from the pin to CI's positive connection? Or it's just stupid?


Theoretically, you'll divide the wire's resistance into 3. But there would be no difference than making the build harder.


----------



## Wgibson

Details on the switchable crossover. Trimpot lets me boost bass more, wasn't sure how far I could/should take it, so I'll have to tweak it and see.

Switch position 01 sounds best so far, no bass boost, bigger low pass filter to cut midbass.

Good treble presence from 10-20k, bass is thick but clean, so good soundstage. Pretty happy with these.

Pics, sketch, graph:


Spoiler


----------



## Wgibson (Mar 29, 2021)

I can try to justify that circuit design after the fact, but honestly just playing with with breadboard, that got me the curve(s) I was looking for. Full range mid and high passed tweeter, in parallel with a resistor (variable with switch and trim pot) then a low passed woofer in series (more caps switched in for lower frequency low pass.)

1) First way I found to get a low pass working without affecting other drivers
2) The resistor in parallel with mid/high limits the impedance spikes (edit: and makes it very easy to attenuate the low driver -smaller resistance here = more volume on the low end.)
3) It still has good instrument separation and clarity, which I did not expect in series with the woofer, but go figure, it works pretty well.
4) I don't know exactly how the big guys use switches to tweak the sound, but usually it is very small changes. I wanted something pretty noticeable, so again, it just seems to work.


----------



## Xymordos

Luffytaro said:


> Just place a fish in face plate, bro.: )


Oh, I thought you painted it in layer by layer


----------



## Aldo40 (Mar 30, 2021)

Xymordos said:


> Oh, I thought you painted it in layer by layer




fish nail 3D here 

                                          https://fr.aliexpress.com/item/32944458801.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.68724b8dOY7LM2&algo_pvid=7d1ac548-d4ee-4e91-b255-0f12933400fc&algo_expid=7d1ac548-d4ee-4e91-b255-0f12933400fc-45&btsid=2100bdd816171276645138261e943b&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_,searchweb201603_

they also use it here
itsfit lab


----------



## Xymordos

Ohh nail art! That actually looks really cute.


----------



## Aldo40

I edited my message, the aliexpress link is accessible


----------



## Luffytaro

Aldo40 said:


> fish nail 3D here
> 
> https://fr.aliexpress.com/item/32944458801.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.68724b8dOY7LM2&algo_pvid=7d1ac548-d4ee-4e91-b255-0f12933400fc&algo_expid=7d1ac548-d4ee-4e91-b255-0f12933400fc-45&btsid=2100bdd816171276645138261e943b&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_,searchweb201603_
> 
> ...


My fish is bigger than itsfit , so difficult to put it in face plate


----------



## tomekk

Is there now any place on the internet to buy a Sonion E50D? E50DA005 exactly?


----------



## Wgibson

I think we're mostly stuck with 30095 or 30019 if you're on a reasonable budget. Haven't found any sonion tweeters, and have been looking for any e25 or e50


----------



## kkugel

Wgibson said:


> I think we're mostly stuck with 30095 or 30019 if you're on a reasonable budget. Haven't found any sonion tweeters, and have been looking for any e25 or e50


I think if more people bought Sonion stuff Soundlink on Aliexpress might expand its product range. The sonion drivers I heard all sounded better than anything Knowles.


----------



## tomekk

Before 2019 you can only buy 33AJ, 33AP007, 2389 on yoycart, but there was E25 too. 
Actual Soundlink Sonion's stock is impressive. For difficult cases there are even more wonderful people.


----------



## Genio Croto

Hi people! How's everybody? I hope it's ok Ask if any have already tested RDI-33438? my set would be the  RDI-33438 DWFK-31785 and SWFK 31736 
The choice of dwfk is more balanced lows
I would need some help with the crossover


----------



## kkugel

I received the opportunity to be able to order any Sonion driver with a minimum order quantity of 25 pcs. Is anyone interested in the 26-E25WT02/9? I might be able to do a group buy!


----------



## tomekk (Apr 7, 2021)

Genio Croto said:


> Hi people! How's everybody? I hope it's ok Ask if any have already tested RDI-33438? my set would be the RDI-33438 DWFK-31785 and SWFK 31736
> The choice of dwfk is more balanced lows
> I would need some help with the crossover


I'd suggest RDI full range 2x20mm,  common tube for  2x15mm DWFK 20-10uF (or full range?), SWFK 470nF or 470x2nF parallel, probably reverse polarity for RDI, SWFK is needed. No dampers.  Edit: you can also check zobel 20uF cap +30ohm resistor connected parallel to wires.


----------



## Genio Croto

tomekk said:


> I'd suggest RDI full range 2x20mm,  common tube for  2x15mm DWFK 20-10uF (or full range?), SWFK 470nF or 470x2nF parallel, probably reverse polarity for RDI, SWFK is needed. No dampers.


Thanks so much! Veri nice set up 
I’ll try definitely ! 
same to me  
Rdi full range (maybe red damper?)
DWFK 10uF (white damper?)
SWFK 2 mm tube id 1,8 mm long


----------



## tomekk

audiophileeee said:


> Does someone tryed use any spesific sonion drivers like
> 
> EST for high
> *EST65DA01* or *EST65SA01*
> ...


I don't see the point of investing in electrostatic for DIY without a background in reverse engineering and a lot of experience in armatures. 120$ for pair EST is a package of drivers for the top of the line DIY project. 

38D1XJ007Mi is a bass crushing, rumble beast. The best woofer without low pass filter problems.


----------



## Wgibson

Genio Croto said:


> Thanks so much! Veri nice set up
> I’ll try definitely !
> same to me
> Rdi full range (maybe red damper?)
> ...



This might be a good candidate to put the dwfk in a zobel of the rdi. Then have swfk in parallel to that. I didn't do all the math but quick look at the datasheets, seems feasible.


----------



## Genio Croto

Wgibson said:


> This might be a good candidate to put the dwfk in a zobel of the rdi. Then have swfk in parallel to that. I didn't do all the math but quick look at the datasheets, seems feasible.


To my ears find the rdi with too much mids...
Maybe can atenúate by 1 mm id


----------



## tomekk

Genio Croto said:


> To my ears find the rdi with too much mids...
> Maybe can atenúate by 1 mm id



If you use 1mm in this, you will reduce depth from 10/10 to 4/10. The stage and air will be reduced and there will be a mono sound impression.


----------



## Genio Croto

tomekk said:


> If you use 1mm in this, you will reduce depth from 10/10 to 4/10. The stage and air will be reduced and there will be a mono sound impression.


Yes , but, increase lows and let the air to SWFK... increasing the tube distance if not affect the phase


----------



## Genio Croto

Genio Croto said:


> Yes , but, increase lows and let the air to SWFK... increasing the tube distance if not affect the phase


Like a PA system run low on mono cut them and let the DWFK and SWFK breathing 
Array them reinforce mids from dwfk 
And hi’s from SWFK with make a trumpet


----------



## Scottua (Apr 8, 2021)

TL : DR - Please recommend the best sounding driver setup that requires a minimal amount of soldering/setup. My focus is primarily the design/printing side of things but I'd still like them to sound good.

So I just got my impressions with the goal to build my own IEMs. I'm handy with a soldering iron but know next to nothing about driver/crossover science. I currently listen on Tin T2s with custom diy molded tips. To me, the soundstage is very nice (I consistently hear something off to the side in the distance and turn to see what it was only to realize it was something in what's coming through the audio) and I'm hoping to meet or exceed that with my DIEMs. What driver setup should I use? I've found that the Tin T2s seem kind of hard to drive with a FIIO BTR3K and the FIIO UTWS1's. I seem to have to nearly max out the volume to comfortably hear the audio if I'm not in a relatively quiet environment. I'd love for my diy's to be easier to drive so I can use those BT receivers if possible.

I've done some reading but I'm still unclear on what to use and how to connect things (series/parallel etc) so I'd like to find something easy(ish) to install or some write-up of what drivers to use and how to connect them.

I know this information exists somewhere in the 837 pages here but I'd prefer to get these done sooner rather than later after spending the next year reading through all the posts.

Thank you for taking pity on a first time poster here and dropping your knowledge on me!


----------



## kkugel

tomekk said:


> I don't see the point of investing in electrostatic for DIY without a background in reverse engineering and a lot of experience in armatures. 120$ for pair EST is a package of drivers for the top of the line DIY project.
> 
> 38D1XJ007Mi is a bass crushing, rumble beast. The best woofer without low pass filter problems.


I was told the ESTs are not that hard to implement as they need no damping, what seems hard is rather attenuating the other drivers for their higher efficiency


----------



## kkugel

Scottua said:


> TLR - Please recommend the best sounding driver setup that requires a minimal amount of soldering/setup. My focus is primarily the design/printing side of things but I'd still like them to sound good.
> 
> So I just got my impressions with the goal to build my own IEMs. I'm handy with a soldering iron but know next to nothing about driver/crossover science. I currently listen on Tin T2s with custom diy molded tips. To me, the soundstage is very nice (I consistently hear something off to the side in the distance and turn to see what it was only to realize it was something in what's coming through the audio) and I'm hoping to meet or exceed that with my DIEMs. What driver setup should I use? I've found that the Tin T2s seem kind of hard to drive with a FIIO BTR3K and the FIIO UTWS1's. I seem to have to nearly max out the volume to comfortably hear the audio if I'm not in a relatively quiet environment. I'd love for my diy's to be easier to drive so I can use those BT receivers if possible.
> 
> ...


I'm trying to facilitate a group buy of the Sonion 26-E25WT02 for this, they are pretty much plug and play it seems and already crossed over. Only available directly from Sonion though, MOQ is 25 units.


----------



## Scottua

kkugel said:


> I'm trying to facilitate a group buy of the Sonion 26-E25WT02 for this, they are pretty much plug and play it seems and already crossed over. Only available directly from Sonion though, MOQ is 25 units.


How close are you to fulfilling that minimum?


----------



## goozaman

Scottua said:


> TLR - Please recommend the best sounding driver setup that requires a minimal amount of soldering/setup. My focus is primarily the design/printing side of things but I'd still like them to sound good.
> 
> So I just got my impressions with the goal to build my own IEMs. I'm handy with a soldering iron but know next to nothing about driver/crossover science. I currently listen on Tin T2s with custom diy molded tips. To me, the soundstage is very nice (I consistently hear something off to the side in the distance and turn to see what it was only to realize it was something in what's coming through the audio) and I'm hoping to meet or exceed that with my DIEMs. What driver setup should I use? I've found that the Tin T2s seem kind of hard to drive with a FIIO BTR3K and the FIIO UTWS1's. I seem to have to nearly max out the volume to comfortably hear the audio if I'm not in a relatively quiet environment. I'd love for my diy's to be easier to drive so I can use those BT receivers if possible.
> 
> ...


You could consider a single balanced armature driver, this literally requires a wire on the + and the - 

Sonion 2354 is a suggestion for a full-range driver
Or Knowles ED29689


----------



## kkugel

Scottua said:


> How close are you to fulfilling that minimum?


So far no one was interested lmao but I only posted it in this thread yesterday. I'll take 6 myself


----------



## Xymordos (Apr 9, 2021)

Finally got around to posting the new iem I've made - another one based on the UERM. Wanted to improve the treble extension and flatten the impedance while keeping a similar FR. Uses 6 drivers, 2x Mid-Low, 2x High, 2x Super-high. Sounds very flat but the bass doesn't sound as anemic as it looks - bass quantity feels quite decent.



Spoiler: Looks



Made with abalone shells and nail art products lol














Spoiler: Inside



Totally stuffed with XO components!













Spoiler: Measurements


----------



## discus123

Xymordos said:


> Finally got around to posting the new iem I've made - another one based on the UERM. Wanted to improve the treble extension and flatten the impedance while keeping a similar FR. Uses 6 drivers, 2x Mid-Low, 2x High, 2x Super-high. Sounds very flat but the bass doesn't sound as anemic as it looks - bass quantity feels quite decent.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


hey bro, that is perfect, I like the faceplate you made !!!!


----------



## mattmatt

Xymordos said:


> Finally got around to posting the new iem I've made - another one based on the UERM. Wanted to improve the treble extension and flatten the impedance while keeping a similar FR. Uses 6 drivers, 2x Mid-Low, 2x High, 2x Super-high. Sounds very flat but the bass doesn't sound as anemic as it looks - bass quantity feels quite decent.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My god! Those look really hard to make! Are those dual CI and ED? How does it sound? Faceplate looks amazing!!


----------



## Luffytaro

Xymordos said:


> Finally got around to posting the new iem I've made - another one based on the UERM. Wanted to improve the treble extension and flatten the impedance while keeping a similar FR. Uses 6 drivers, 2x Mid-Low, 2x High, 2x Super-high. Sounds very flat but the bass doesn't sound as anemic as it looks - bass quantity feels quite decent.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The faceplate really nice, but the shell transparent look not good in this one because inside look quite jumble. Thanks for sharing. 
: )


----------



## Luffytaro

Hi all, I would like to share which I reshell for my friend, I use gear for nail, next time I will make with gear in watch, may be will pay more money. Haha : )


----------



## Wgibson

@Xymordos that's a tight fit, nice work. Are those 1206 size caps? Do they have advantages over 0805 size? And can you give a basic circuit description (what is in series/parallel, zobel on anything?)


----------



## JEHL

Does a 2DD, 2BA and 2EST sound like something worth trying?


----------



## Xymordos

mattmatt said:


> My god! Those look really hard to make! Are those dual CI and ED? How does it sound? Faceplate looks amazing!!


Thanks! They sound...very flat and clear, similar to the UERM. But the bass is pretty impactful despite it being so flat. Dual CI and ED, but 1Audio drivers since they actually make them into one spout!


Luffytaro said:


> The faceplate really nice, but the shell transparent look not good in this one because inside look quite jumble. Thanks for sharing.
> : )


Thanks! Unfortunately I don't make shells myself - got them made by someone else so they come in clear every time  


Wgibson said:


> @Xymordos that's a tight fit, nice work. Are those 1206 size caps? Do they have advantages over 0805 size? And can you give a basic circuit description (what is in series/parallel, zobel on anything?)



Uhh no difference, if I used bigger caps, it was likely mouser priced the 0805 version much higher than the 1206 version.  The circuit used a lot of voltage dividers to flatten the impedance, so it ended up being quite hard to drive  I did zobel the ED, but found that the CI didn't need it. CI is a first order low pass, and ED is a first order high pass, SWFK is a 2nd order high pass. Took around 11 components I believe.


----------



## Jerry-S

Long time lurker, first time poster (in this thread)
I'm almost finished a new MASM pro build and it sounds great.
I was wondering if anyone has graphed the MASM pro?
If you have or can share it that would be great.
I'll post some pics when im finished buffing it.
Thanks


----------



## mattmatt

Xymordos said:


> Thanks! They sound...very flat and clear, similar to the UERM. But the bass is pretty impactful despite it being so flat. Dual CI and ED, but 1Audio drivers since they actually make them into one spout!
> 
> Thanks! Unfortunately I don't make shells myself - got them made by someone else so they come in clear every time
> 
> ...


Great job none the less! I can't see the SWFK tho! 😂


----------



## Max spl (Apr 11, 2021)

My order is finally completed and time to start.
The EST65QB02 and the 4x  38D1Xs are completely destroyed from soldering and experiments . 😬
The most drivers came yesterday.
I have 4x 38aj007 , 2x 2389D , 4x 10mm dynamic drivers, 2x DEK-31785, 2x DEB-32257 , 2x DEG-29689 , 2x TWEK-30017 , 2x DWEK-31736 , and all kind of dampers.

What are you thoughts about the LS BAs ?
Has anyone build an iem with those drivers ?

I'm don't really know what to build 😕
Maybe a 16 ba iem per side with 4 way crossover and 4 bores  ? Or a hybrid iem ?
The Dynamic drivers are a bit big . It will not be possible to fit 2x DD in one shell.
Any thoughts?


----------



## Xymordos

mattmatt said:


> Great job none the less! I can't see the SWFK tho! 😂



It's near the spout  using a 5mm tube.


----------



## tomekk

Max spl said:


> Maybe a 16 ba iem per side with 4 way crossover and 4 bores ? Or a hybrid iem ?
> The Dynamic drivers are a bit big . It will not be possible to fit 2x DD in one shell.
> Any thoughts?



In this case, you can build a minimum of two pairs hi-quality iems having these drivers, but if I were you, I would give up EST and dynamics. 
Basing on e.g. 38aj for sub, I will buy 37AP007 for low mids, , 31785 or 2*2389 or 2*29689 mid-hi, 31736 super hi. Two bores 2mm, 8 drivers. 

More drivers than 6-8, 3/4 way, it's very haaard to create that and still have sounds good without skill. Remember this.

For example

12 drivers, 4 bores, per side.



7 drivers, 5 bores, per side.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Guys
Could you all make a pdf for how to make shells properly

I want to learn this thing and be over with it. As everytime I try to make one

It fails

And I don't want to loose any furthur money getting shells wrong

Also
Is Formlabs 3L good for making iem shells
As I would try to save money for that


----------



## Xymordos

tomekk said:


> In this case, you can build a minimum of two pairs hi-quality iems having these drivers, but if I were you, I would give up EST and dynamics.
> Basing on e.g. 38aj for sub, I will buy 37AP007 for low mids, , 31785 or 2*2389 or 2*29689 mid-hi, 31736 super hi. Two bores 2mm, 8 drivers.
> 
> More drivers than 6-8, 3/4 way, it's very haaard to create that and still have sounds good without skill. Remember this.
> ...



Oh is that the GR driver? That driver really does sound nice!


----------



## tomekk (Apr 11, 2021)

Xymordos said:


> Oh is that the GR driver? That driver really does sound nice!


Right, 2*GR,  2*DTEC modified to vented, DWFK, SWFK freqphased. 4x1,5mm, damper free design.


----------



## Max spl

tomekk said:


> In this case, you can build a minimum of two pairs hi-quality iems having these drivers, but if I were you, I would give up EST and dynamics.
> Basing on e.g. 38aj for sub, I will buy 37AP007 for low mids, , 31785 or 2*2389 or 2*29689 mid-hi, 31736 super hi. Two bores 2mm, 8 drivers.
> 
> More drivers than 6-8, 3/4 way, it's very haaard to create that and still have sounds good without skill. Remember this.
> ...


Amazing builds . They look awesome. 
You are doing it really like a pro. 😉

I wanted to buy the 28uap01 but are very expensive and don't worth the price my opinion.  I will wait for better prices. 

I know is very hard building iems with more than 8 drives . 

This gonna be my 7th build after so many tries and disappointment, I have learned something. I have some experience. 

I agree with you, I will build for now 2 iems,  

Thank you 🙂


----------



## Wgibson

@Xymordos got details on venting the dtecs? I found a mystery sonion driver "20x53" that is similar to a knowles CI and vented it by filing the corner, worked out pretty well (they matched well) and got a good db boost at 20hz but it wasn't particularly accurate work. I used it in that last thing I posted with the switches and trimpot.


----------



## Max spl

First iem is done . 🙂 I must now only color it or I will let it like this ? I don't care. Lol. 1 bore 2 mm for the dd ( 10mm ) 1 bore 1.5 mm for the dual DEB-32257 4.7 uf cap white damper for highs ( Reversed polarity ) and 1 bore 1.5 mm  dual DEK-31785 1 uf cap no damper for more highs .lol.
4 bAs I DD  🙃

No harsh at all . Very smooth ,
It sounds spacious with big punchy bass . 
Crazy satisfied . 
It costs me only 40 Euros. 
Budget Audiophile homemade iem 😜


----------



## Wgibson

Max spl said:


> First iem is done . 🙂 I must now only color it or I will let it like this ? I don't care. Lol. 1 bore 2 mm for the dd ( 10mm ) 1 bore 1.5 mm for the dual DEB-32257 4.7 uf cap white damper for highs ( Reversed polarity ) and 1 bore 1.5 mm  dual DEK-31785 1 uf cap no damper for more highs .lol.
> 4 bAs I DD  🙃
> 
> No harsh at all . Very smooth ,
> ...



Looks good, probably pretty flat curve? I have used that 32257 and the pinna gain is not too high compared to the bass response, with a DD using a big tube probably have some solid low/mid bass, nice warm sound.

What's the theory behind 2mm on the dd? If anything I'd think 1mm or less for a little acoustic low pass. And save 2mm bore for the highs.


----------



## Max spl (Apr 12, 2021)

Wgibson said:


> Looks good, probably pretty flat curve? I have used that 32257 and the pinna gain is not too high compared to the bass response, with a DD using a big tube probably have some solid low/mid bass, nice warm sound.
> 
> What's the theory behind 2mm on the dd? If anything I'd think 1mm or less for a little acoustic low pass. And save 2mm bore for the highs.


Thank you.

Yes it has a solid bass.  Goes very deep.
The DD has a good  roll of on treble for this case. I wanted to use the DD for lows and mids .
Has solid low/mid bass, nice warm sound exactly like you described it.
Separation is also very good .

Yes I tried also 2mm for the highs .my opinion the DD needs bigger diameter for better overall response and better mids .That's why I added 31785 for more treble.  The 31785 isn't doing much but it helps a bit.


----------



## mattmatt

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Guys
> Could you all make a pdf for how to make shells properly
> 
> I want to learn this thing and be over with it. As everytime I try to make one
> ...


Shoot me a pm.


----------



## mattmatt

tomekk said:


> In this case, you can build a minimum of two pairs hi-quality iems having these drivers, but if I were you, I would give up EST and dynamics.
> Basing on e.g. 38aj for sub, I will buy 37AP007 for low mids, , 31785 or 2*2389 or 2*29689 mid-hi, 31736 super hi. Two bores 2mm, 8 drivers.
> 
> More drivers than 6-8, 3/4 way, it's very haaard to create that and still have sounds good without skill. Remember this.
> ...


Great builds man! Love how clear they are. Just wondering, how do you retain the proper length of the soundtube making it like this? How would you know how long you should pull out for the excess or you just eyeball it? Somehow, this photos reminds me of some photos Custom Art posted on their IG.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

mattmatt said:


> Shoot me a pm.


Not able to shoot on
Some issue in headfi which is not letting me see the body where I write down the message

What I need is the detailed step as everything is too much spread out on thread and I don't know what's right and wrong

And since I don't want to burn money like old days, that's why asking a fool proof method to make super clear shells(no art nothing)


----------



## Max spl

Max spl said:


> First iem is done . 🙂 I must now only color it or I will let it like this ? I don't care. Lol. 1 bore 2 mm for the dd ( 10mm ) 1 bore 1.5 mm for the dual DEB-32257 4.7 uf cap white damper for highs ( Reversed polarity ) and 1 bore 1.5 mm  dual DEK-31785 1 uf cap no damper for more highs .lol.
> 4 bAs I DD  🙃
> 
> No harsh at all . Very smooth ,
> ...


Ι replaced the capacitors to 1 uf  on both bAs
Now is a lot smoother 

Over 10k the response isn't accurate.
Measurement is done with arta and rew . It gives me the same graph .
The treble is very present. 
Here is what it gives.


----------



## tomekk

mattmatt said:


> Somehow, this photos reminds me of some photos Custom Art posted on their IG.


  Always and getting better at doing clear iem. Sometimes something black will be born. But I am crazy about clears.


----------



## Max spl

tomekk said:


> Always and getting better at doing clear iem. Sometimes something black will be born. But I am crazy about clears.


One question please. 
Where do you get those shells ?
Can anyone print a shell for me ?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Max spl said:


> Ι replaced the capacitors to 1 uf  on both bAs
> Now is a lot smoother
> 
> Over 10k the response isn't accurate.
> ...


Looks like VE8


----------



## mattmatt

Max spl said:


> One question please.
> Where do you get those shells ?
> Can anyone print a shell for me ?


 We cast them on our own or print it with a 3D printer. One method I did to make universals is hand mold it to my desired shape, had it 3D scanned. Edited via F360 or meshmixer and printed it. Viola, uniform universal shells that I can cast a mold from.


----------



## Max spl

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Looks like VE8


Hi 🙂
I've read many posts of you and it seems you have very much experience with crossovers.

I have one question. 
When I place a cap parallel to the driver as low pass filter , 1 cap to the mid driver as a high pass filter and one cap for the tweeter as a highpass filter the most of the times 90% I get a muffled monster. The mids are Completely gone . 
I hear only boom boom - tsiou tsiou 🤣. I change the cap values on the low pass filter and this happens again. When I take out the cap parallel everything works fine.
Do you know why ? It seems this cap parallel don't works well and it cause a lot of problems.

I don't know the VE8 . I guess my iem sounds worse than the VE8 .😁


----------



## Aldo40

in my opinion this is a phase problem


----------



## Max spl

mattmatt said:


> We cast them on our own or print it with a 3D printer. One method I did to make universals is hand mold it to my desired shape, had it 3D scanned. Edited via F360 or meshmixer and printed it. Viola, uniform universal shells that I can cast a mold from.


I want these 2 shells like this 🙂 one clear and one black. If you can copy exactly the same shells it would be amazing. 
Can you sell to me ?
Im sick and tired from soundlinks universal shells .

@tomekk do you sell ?


----------



## Aldo40

Max spl said:


> I must now only color it or I will let it like this ? I don't care. Lol. 1 bore 2 mm for the dd ( 10mm ) 1 bore 1.5 mm for the dual DEB-32257 4.7 uf cap white damper for highs ( Reversed polarity ) and 1 bore 1.5 mm dual DEK-31785 1 uf cap no damper for more highs .lol.


bore 1mm for the DD is better


----------



## discus123

mattmatt said:


> We cast them on our own or print it with a 3D printer. One method I did to make universals is hand mold it to my desired shape, had it 3D scanned. Edited via F360 or meshmixer and printed it. Viola, uniform universal shells that I can cast a mold from.


I planned to buy a 3D uv printer also.  Which one is better and have better quality ? About 3D scanned,  how ?  and use what kind of software to scan the shell ? Thanks..


----------



## Aldo40

Personally I use an elegoo mars pro and it is very precise!


----------



## Max spl

Aldo40 said:


> bore 1mm for the DD is better


Ok I have one pair of DDs left and may drivers 
I will bore 1mm. I will start building it. 1.5mm for mids 2mm for highs ? I will extend the pvc tubes with metal silver tubes.


----------



## Max spl

Aldo40 said:


> in my opinion this is a phase problem


When i reverse polarity it sounds again the same  . 
Each driver has its own independent tube .
I don't use cap parallel anymore for this reason. 
Idk what else to try.


----------



## Aldo40

Max spl said:


> Ok I have one pair of DDs left and may drivers
> I will bore 1mm. I will start building it. 1.5mm for mids 2mm for highs ? I will extend the pvc tubes with metal silver tubes.


Yes it is easier to avoid a too large tube thickness at the nozzle outlet, it is a good solution.

A narrower tube on the bass brings more dynamic, it also plays a minimal role in low pass, even with a yellow damper for example we could do without filter. for the medium acute one seeks to open and extend the response, the wider tubes improves that, 1.5mm see 2mm


----------



## Aldo40

Max spl said:


> When i reverse polarity it sounds again the same  .
> Each driver has its own independent tube .
> I don't use cap parallel anymore for this reason.
> Idk what else to try.


Can you give us a measurement?


----------



## Max spl

Aldo40 said:


> Can you give us a measurement?


Oh no, too late. I have already sealed it with resin and instant glue. 
I will give a measurement on my next build.
I build fast. You will see will happen again the same.


----------



## Max spl (Apr 13, 2021)

Aldo40 said:


> Yes it is easier to avoid a too large tube thickness at the nozzle outlet, it is a good solution.
> 
> A narrower tube on the bass brings more dynamic, it also plays a minimal role in low pass, even with a yellow damper for example we could do without filter. for the medium acute one seeks to open and extend the response, the wider tubes improves that, 1.5mm see 2mm


Ok I will do like you say . Thx
I have also this kind of metal tubes. It opens on the top like a horn. I have all types of sizes. They have 0.15 - 0.20 mm walls .
I will use them for the tweeter. 

I will use 1dd , 1 dual mid and 2 dual Highs.


----------



## mattmatt

Max spl said:


> Hi 🙂
> I've read many posts of you and it seems you have very much experience with crossovers.
> 
> I have one question.
> ...


You can try reversing the driver. Not the polarity from the source. Positive side of the source to the negative pad of the driver. 

These are tomekk's design, I think it wond be okay to straight up copy them. I can make some shells for you if you want me to. 


discus123 said:


> I planned to buy a 3D uv printer also.  Which one is better and have better quality ? About 3D scanned,  how ?  and use what kind of software to scan the shell ? Thanks..


I use the OG Photon. Works well for me even with custom iems. 😁


----------



## Max spl

mattmatt said:


> You can try reversing the driver. Not the polarity from the source. Positive side of the source to the negative pad of the driver.



I've did that but nothing happens. I had the same results.


mattmatt said:


> These are tomekk's design, I think it wond be okay to straight up copy them. I can make some shells for you if you want me to.
> 
> I use the OG Photon. Works well for me even with custom iems. 😁


Ok no copy. 🙂 
You are doing it also very well 😉
I need universals .
Thx


----------



## Wgibson

With all drivers in parallel, a low pass cap will low pass all of them, I have this same issue, can't get it to work.

Can someone post a verified wiring diagram (actually built and measured frequency response) of a parallel cap low pass, with a full or high pass driver in parallel with the low passed driver?


----------



## Max spl

Wgibson said:


> With all drivers in parallel, a low pass cap will low pass all of them, I have this same issue, can't get it to work.
> 
> Can someone post a verified wiring diagram (actually built and measured frequency response) of a parallel cap low pass, with a full or high pass driver in parallel with the low passed driver?


I believe the cap parallel to the woofer messes up with the impedance and when the woofer Raise its impedance the woofer drains all the power from the amplifier To be honest no one uses cap parallel to any iem from the big companies.


----------



## Max spl

Try to add a big series resistor over 10 ohm to the midrange to see what happens. And let the woofer with a cap parallel


----------



## mattmatt

Wgibson said:


> With all drivers in parallel, a low pass cap will low pass all of them, I have this same issue, can't get it to work.
> 
> Can someone post a verified wiring diagram (actually built and measured frequency response) of a parallel cap low pass, with a full or high pass driver in parallel with the low passed driver?


Never tried using a single cap in parallel as a LPF. I always use a resistor in series. 

Source>resistor>cap in parallel>driver. 

If you use a resistor for your LPF, make sure you wire your other drivers after the source, before the resistor. Better if you directly connect other drivers to the source(socket)


----------



## Max spl

A cap parallel low passes the woofer a lot .
Especially one 220 uf ceramic cap will sound like a pure subwoofer. Gives a huge bass shelf especially on the 38dj or 38D1X

But it doesn't work when you wiring the rest drivers.

Like I said it worths to try to add first a big resistor 10 to 20 ohms to the mid driver  and place behind the resistor the capacitor to the mid driver. And then wire all the drivers parallel directly to the mmcx connectors. I'm very curious to see what will happen .


----------



## Wgibson (Apr 13, 2021)

Max spl said:


> A cap parallel low passes the woofer a lot .
> Especially one 220 uf ceramic cap will sound like a pure subwoofer. Gives a huge bass shelf especially on the 38dj or 38D1X
> 
> But it doesn't work when you wiring the rest drivers.
> ...



To the first part, yes I've been doing that (high cap value low pass) and it gives you a nice bass shelf. There are some 100uf 0805 size Murata caps on ebay now for VERY cheap, 100 for $10 or less. Only 4v, but that should be fine for iems. For reference, these are more than $1 each from mouser. So stock up!
(Edit: those have been measuring about 70uf initially, and around 85uf after soldering them, value increases after soldering so be aware of that.)

Second part, I've tried various resistors on everything, in different places, still can't get a parallel cap low pass working with other drivers in parallel. 

You can see my wiring diagram (hand written sketch) for the last project I posted, with the switches and trimpot. It works but the woofer is in series to the mid/high, also with a resistor in parallel to mid/high that let's you attenuate the bass without affecting mid or high. I posted curves too with different switch positions. So for now that is my functional solution. Would love to hear any theoretical problems with that arrangement though.


----------



## Max spl

Try 220 uf 1210 cap this starts to roll of very low and it sound awesome. But like we said we can't find a solution to make it work.
Everyone is telling that it works and I have read it many times but NO it doesn't.  I have tried it many times and nothing. 
I will do some more experiments and if I find something that works I will let you know if I don't find something to make it work then all what they say are bulls**t*.


----------



## Max spl (Apr 13, 2021)

I'm not a beginner. I finished my iem in 4 hours.  Imagine how many times I have tried and how many times I've failed. It doesn't matter if someone builds iems for 20 years or for one year.  If someone knows about it sketch something and stop talking without knowing or without even testing it because I've lost a lot of money because of some " foxs "


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Max spl said:


> Hi 🙂
> I've read many posts of you and it seems you have very much experience with crossovers.
> 
> I have one question.
> ...


That may happen because of phase shift and you have to check it out on FR.
Capacitor can skew phase and it has to be adjusted with tube lenght and electrical phase allignment
My suggestion is
Always start With uppermid driver tube lenght and get pinna perfect and then note it down on paper

When making the iem, don't touch uppermid and handle other tubes of other driver to allign phase and avoid cancellation, try reverse phasing driver and see, if the fill up the dips and then you are ready to go.


----------



## Xymordos

dhruvmeena96 said:


> That may happen because of phase shift and you have to check it out on FR.
> Capacitor can skew phase and it has to be adjusted with tube lenght and electrical phase allignment
> My suggestion is
> Always start With uppermid driver tube lenght and get pinna perfect and then note it down on paper
> ...



Uhh if you don't add resistors in between I think they'll act as a band pass...parallel caps without resistors in front will affect other drivers I believe.


----------



## Max spl (Apr 13, 2021)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> That may happen because of phase shift and you have to check it out on FR.
> Capacitor can skew phase and it has to be adjusted with tube lenght and electrical phase allignment
> My suggestion is
> Always start With uppermid driver tube lenght and get pinna perfect and then note it down on paper
> ...



Thx for your help.

I will check it tomorrow and i will post the measurements.


----------



## Max spl

Xymordos said:


> Uhh if you don't add resistors in between I think they'll act as a band pass...parallel caps without resistors in front will affect other drivers I believe.


No it doesn't act as band pass it works as a low pass .It effects all the drivers 100000%
When wiring the woofer with a cap parallel , the mid and high driver with a cap series and then connecting all the drivers parallel to the mmcx you will hear only 20 % of the midrange, 20% highs and 60 % bass. With reversed polarity or normal polarity is the same result.


----------



## kkugel

Max spl said:


> A cap parallel low passes the woofer a lot .
> Especially one 220 uf ceramic cap will sound like a pure subwoofer. Gives a huge bass shelf especially on the 38dj or 38D1X
> 
> But it doesn't work when you wiring the rest drivers.
> ...


I just did that coincidentally, next post will have detail


----------



## kkugel (Apr 13, 2021)

Finished my second prototype today! Measured a very inaccurate but quick FR with a Dayton IMM-6 and clay. I had a better FR before with more bass but it sounded worse. Just figured out why that happened, the filled in bass came from the mid driver where the high pass did not work properly until I added a 20 ohm resistor for the L-Pad. This removed a lot of bass volume, made it sound tighter though. EST will be added later, now just shaping the 38DJ and 2389D I have and waiting for my 711.
Config:
Drivers wired in parallel
38DJ internally series
with 10 ohm series and 2 parallel 47uF caps (didn't have 100uF and this was the closest I had)
2389D internally series
with 20 ohm series and 4.7 ohm parallel for L pad, 47uF series for high pass.
and brown damper (reduced the 2khz and 4khz spikes a bit)

I bridged the 38DJ 10 ohm with a cable while measuring and found it only lowers the volume a bit, but makes the cutoff angle a lot steeper.
Now gotta think of a way to bring down 2389D volume, as EST will be the most silent part, thus cannot just remove the 38DJ 10 ohm.


----------



## Xymordos

Max spl said:


> No it doesn't act as band pass it works as a low pass .It effects all the drivers 100000%
> When wiring the woofer with a cap parallel , the mid and high driver with a cap series and then connecting all the drivers parallel to the mmcx you will hear only 20 % of the midrange, 20% highs and 60 % bass. With reversed polarity or normal polarity is the same result.



I was referring to your other drivers with a cap as a high pass. The parallel cap on your woofer will affect the high and mid drivers, and the combination will become a band pass.


----------



## Wgibson (Apr 13, 2021)

I'll post some graphs and schematics side by side this weekend. My 4x32357 and 31736 project with the pinout connector, I am working on using 1 of the 32257 as a low passed woofer, 3x32257 in series full range mid, and the 31736 is high passed of course.

Also @kkugel that 2389d and 38D, a 40db drop by 8k is not normal, it is being low passed (or technically bandpass) but that distinction isn't too important (to me at least for this specific topic.)

Bottom line, the 38D low pass IS clearly affecting the 2389D. And that gap at/above 8k is too much to be filled in with the EST most likely.

Edit: and if you connect that EST in parallel, you will get almost no sound from it, because it will also be low or bandpassed.


----------



## tomekk

Max spl said:


> I want these 2 shells like this 🙂 one clear and one black. If you can copy exactly the same shells it would be amazing.
> Can you sell to me ?
> Im sick and tired from soundlinks universal shells .
> 
> @tomekk do you sell ?


These enclosures were created by me after prototyping and maximizing ergonomics for the two bass drivers and treble and mid sections without wasting space.  This one in the picture is my multi-prototype and many hours of valuable work. For this reason I cannot open it for clone.  

I would be very happy to think about a solution to help create maybe some kind of universal shell for the forum with more space for easy work.
Just a thought, do people want to create a 3d case on a computer or hand craft one? I can support second one only.


----------



## tomekk (Apr 14, 2021)

kkugel said:


> Drivers wired in parallel
> 38DJ internally series
> with 10 ohm series and 2 parallel 47uF caps (didn't have 100uF and this was the closest I had)
> 2389D internally series
> ...


Check this one:

38DJ internally parallel, LP 47uF/5-20ohm, mabye reverse polarity ?   Is it your resistor on photo is 10 000 ohm? 10k ohm by mistake 10ohm?
2389D internally series, HP 20uF you wired it correct.

Throw out the LPAD, it's a solution for large speakers with different wattages and impendances. Skip the impedance in this case of DIY.


----------



## kkugel (Apr 14, 2021)

tomekk said:


> Check this one:
> 
> 38DJ internally parallel, LP 47uF/5-20ohm, mabye reverse polarity ?   Is it your resistor on photo is 10 000 ohm? 10k ohm by mistake 10ohm?
> 2389D internally series, HP 20uF you wired it correct.
> ...


Thanks for the advice! I fiddled around a bit and left the LP with 10 ohm and 94uF, removed the L-Pad and put a 1000 ohm series and .47uF cap in series for the 2389D, as mids were just wayyy too loud else. Now the FR is pretty much a straight line. I think I will try a yellow damper for the bass now to scoop out 500Hz-2khz. Also might try a lower value for the 2389D cap. I do a subjective sound check between each adjustment and it sounds by far the best now. I have no clue about the polarity of the circuit as the 2 pin is symmetrical, but I marked the position of the connector in which it has more bass. Might try switching 2389D polarity too


----------



## kkugel

I fixed the ruler straight FR by adding 2 yellow dampers at the end of the bass tube. New measurement:


----------



## Max spl (Apr 14, 2021)

🙂


----------



## Max spl (Apr 14, 2021)

If you want you can ad 1 ohm series resistor on the 38dj for a better bass my opinion. Try to extend the pvc tubes with metal tubes with thin walls.  1.5 mm ID for the 38DJ , 1,5mm ID for the 2389D And 2mm ID for the EST65QB02.  This will fit inside the nozzle of the soundlinks shell.
Then wire all drivers parallel directly to the mmcx connectors .
Try it and then tell me your thoughts 🙂


----------



## Max spl

kkugel said:


> I just did that coincidentally, next post will have detail


I didn't meant that kind of wiring. I must sketch it to understand it .
This wiring you did makes no sense. !
If you want to hear us make it as simple as you can because you will end like me with destroyed and damaged EST65QB02 drivers
I don't want to offend anyone but is the truth.


----------



## Aldo40

How did you destroy EST?


----------



## kkugel

I'm adding the EST later, when I figured out bass and mids.
Earlier I thought the bass drop off is a measuring error due to my Dayton rig being a bit crappy, but when listening closely to a deep diving song I found it to be real, almost no sub bass. @Max spl Will wiring the 38DJ in parallel fix that? As far as I was told that would just boost the overall bass response and increase distortion.
Replaced the 10 ohm series 38DJ with a 20 ohm, now response looks nice besides subbass issue:


----------



## kkugel

tomekk said:


> Check this one:
> 
> 38DJ internally parallel, LP 47uF/5-20ohm, mabye reverse polarity ?   Is it your resistor on photo is 10 000 ohm? 10k ohm by mistake 10ohm?
> 2389D internally series, HP 20uF you wired it correct.
> ...


Now I have 38DJ internally series (parallel just boosts SPL and increases distortion I heard?) with 94 uF parallel and 20 ohm resistor series
2389D with 1000 ohm resistor series and .47 uF series.
FR looks like in picture above, subbass just drops off with all configs I tried and no clue why.


----------



## Wgibson

Check for tube leaks


----------



## Max spl

Sorry i can't help kkugel . I don't know how it works or if will work.  Good luck.


----------



## Xymordos

Is it phase cancelling with the other drivers or something? Try disconnecting the drivers to measure the bass driver only?


----------



## Max spl

Aldo40 said:


> How did you destroy EST?


From soldering , placing , replacing, gluing , changing caps , etc . The result ? damaging the transformators and the drivers. When I found the tubes length of the drivers I wanted glue them with resin. I was  gluing the transformators with one drop resin ,then I was curing them with UV light and then I tried to test it if was stable and then this ( see photo bellow ) came apart.
Beside that I was cracking the volume at max ( distortion levels ) to see how loud they can go with different capacitor values. I have really destroyed them .the drivers aren't good for me . Then I broke them completely because I was extremely angry.  
These are very tiny and the cable is very thin. 
The transformators aren't solid. 
I was scared  when I was touching them.
The low pass on the 2x 38dj  ( the cap parallel ) screwed up everything. And guess what , it never worked well . I shouldn't insist with the low pass  . I shouldn't buy them . I regret it every time I hear ESTs . They have a very pleasant treble with no sibilance  and are natural to my ears. Don't get me wrong but I prefer more the treble performance from knowles tweeters especially if are well tuned. 
Simply they don't worth the price for me. Maybe 60 bucks is ok but not more.


----------



## kkugel

Xymordos said:


> Is it phase cancelling with the other drivers or something? Try disconnecting the drivers to measure the bass driver only?


Same issue


----------



## Xymordos

kkugel said:


> Same issue



Do you have another bass driver that you can measure with the same rig?


----------



## Wgibson

30db drop from 4k to 8k on A 2389D - does that look correct to anybody, or can we all agree there is a low pass (or bandpass) effect there?


----------



## Xymordos

Wgibson said:


> 30db drop from 4k to 8k on A 2389D - does that look correct to anybody, or can we all agree there is a low pass (or bandpass) effect there?



What's the current XO config?


----------



## kkugel (Apr 15, 2021)

Xymordos said:


> Do you have another bass driver that you can measure with the same rig?


That's a good idea!

Edit: Just measured it, same thing. Measured it without XO too, same result. Maybe sub 63 Hz is not possible without perfect seal? Gotta wait for the 711 probably..


----------



## kkugel

Xymordos said:


> What's the current XO config?


1000 ohm series and 5.4 uF series - it's definitely a high pass (just realized though it should be 0.1 uF, it cuts at like 3 Hz currently.
The 1000 ohm attenuates quite a bit, but the whole 2389D range.


----------



## Aldo40

1000 ohms ?


----------



## Xymordos

kkugel said:


> That's a good idea!
> 
> Edit: Just measured it, same thing. Measured it without XO too, same result. Maybe sub 63 Hz is not possible without perfect seal? Gotta wait for the 711 probably..


Wait its not sealed? Then of course there'll be no deep bass...

And 1000 ohms?!


----------



## kkugel (Apr 15, 2021)

Yea the Dayton rig is a bit crappy haha. As I tried everything and another driver that problem will probably solve itself with the 711. Yep I used 1000 ohm for 30dB attenuation, so the SPL matches EST SPL. That probably kills microdetails though right? I have to find a way to make SPL matching..maybe still do an L-Pad+XO


----------



## Aldo40

kkugel said:


> Yea the Dayton rig is a bit crappy haha. As I tried everything and another driver that problem will probably solve itself with the 711. Yep I used 1000 ohm for 30dB attenuation, so the SPL matches EST SPL. That probably kills microdetails though right? I have to find a way to make SPL matching..maybe still do an L-Pad+XO


1000 ohms I’ve never seen this! Don’t worry about the SPL of the EST, it will always be lower and must be lower for your listening comfort. an IEM is not fix as the SPL of an loudspeakers.


----------



## Wgibson

I have a dayton imm6, works just fine. You may need to use tack around all the tubes depending on how you could it together

FYI, this doesn't give the same response above 4k or so (compared to tubes in a finished iem nozzle, peaks are different) but these 3 bore metal nozzles are a lifesaver for breadboard prototypes and tweaking crossovers. You can get them on taobao (and I'm in the US, so I use Superbuy - many transactions, no problems so far.)


----------



## Xymordos

kkugel said:


> Yea the Dayton rig is a bit crappy haha. As I tried everything and another driver that problem will probably solve itself with the 711. Yep I used 1000 ohm for 30dB attenuation, so the SPL matches EST SPL. That probably kills microdetails though right? I have to find a way to make SPL matching..maybe still do an L-Pad+XO



If it leaks at all you're gonna see a sharp drop in bass. 

You probably should do a LPad rather than a 1000 ohm resistor o.O


----------



## dhruvmeena96

@Xymordos @Aldo40 my reaction was the same on 1000ohms but he actually really did 1000ohms
I really told him to do Lpad

Also, it's impossible to damage any driver, just solder wire first and then solder component on wire
That's a given common sense @Max spl 
Nobody directly solder component until or unless they are not damm sure
And especially on EST


----------



## Wgibson

It probably hurts enough to kill some EST's, so no need to rub it in. But I usually solder extra long wires to drivers (tin the wires first) and add kapton tape as a strain relief, tape wires to the body of the driver. Then trim wires to length later for final assembly.

And to temporarily fix into a shell, a small amount of tack works. I am not quite ready to invest in EST, but I would probably tape around the entire transformer just to be safe. Maybe UV glue the wire connection to the est drivers also.


----------



## Max spl

Wgibson said:


> It probably hurts enough to kill some EST's, so no need to rub it in. But I usually solder extra long wires to drivers (tin the wires first) and add kapton tape as a strain relief, tape wires to the body of the driver. Then trim wires to length later for final assembly.
> 
> And to temporarily fix into a shell, a small amount of tack works. I am not quite ready to invest in EST, but I would probably tape around the entire transformer just to be safe. Maybe UV glue the wire connection to the est drivers also.


Maybe my ESTats was bad made which I don't really believe . Are all the ssame .The side where the connections are,  maybe is made from resin ? I don't suggest to use resin or uv glue where the connections are or near this place . It will come apart. This side  ( see photo below ) is made from different materials I believe and is harder.
No need to buy ests . Don't worth the price. Believe me . We can't make a low pass to work amazing and we are going to buy Estats ? Not a smart move. 🙂


----------



## Max spl

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Also, it's impossible to damage any driver, just solder wire first and then solder component on wire
> That's a given common sense @Max spl
> Nobody directly solder component until or unless they are not damm sure
> And especially on EST


If was so easy to make an iem to sound amazing then ok I can accept what you say.
Even the biggest companies in the world can't do one iem with estats to sound amazing.
They aren't even close to that . 

My goal  is to build amazing sounding iems. If is to build iems with estats and best drivers to sound like KZ or TRN then is better to give up with this hobby. I'm not scared to test, damage or destroy any drivers. I did it many times. I have already many series from sonion, knowles, Generic BAs , DDs damaged and destroyed  ( over 20 drivers ) but this makes a real pro when it comes to placing, soldering and tubing. 


dhruvmeena96 said:


> @Xymordos @Aldo40 my reaction was the same on 1000ohms but he actually really did 1000ohms
> I really told him to do Lpad



I gave him a lot of useful information and advices but he don't want to hear. 1000 ohms ? 🥴. And this graph and wiring? 🥴 no comments.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Max spl said:


> If was so easy to make an iem to sound amazing then ok I can accept what you say.
> Even the biggest companies in the world can't do one iem with estats to sound amazing.
> They aren't even close to that .
> 
> ...


KZ and TRN is pretty small goal to acheiev man

Atleast aim big


----------



## discus123

Max spl said:


> My goal  is to build amazing sounding iems. If is to build iems with estats and best drivers to sound like KZ or TRN then is better to give up with this hobby.


I totally agreed with you. You are right ! we're on the same boat.


----------



## kkugel

Max spl said:


> If was so easy to make an iem to sound amazing then ok I can accept what you say.
> Even the biggest companies in the world can't do one iem with estats to sound amazing.
> They aren't even close to that .
> 
> ...


Dude I'm just trying stuff. I can still remove the 1000 ohm, was just an idea I wanted to try. Currently waiting for new caps as I don't have every value.


----------



## mattmatt

kkugel said:


> Dude I'm just trying stuff. I can still remove the 1000 ohm, was just an idea I wanted to try. Currently waiting for new caps as I don't have every value.


Just try and learn. No pressure. Just try out stuff and learn from it. Errors are bound to happen. Just don't get disheartened. We all start from somewhere.


----------



## mattmatt

tomekk said:


> These enclosures were created by me after prototyping and maximizing ergonomics for the two bass drivers and treble and mid sections without wasting space.  This one in the picture is my multi-prototype and many hours of valuable work. For this reason I cannot open it for clone.
> 
> I would be very happy to think about a solution to help create maybe some kind of universal shell for the forum with more space for easy work.
> Just a thought, do people want to create a 3d case on a computer or hand craft one? I can support second one only.


Hey man, I'm also creating a shell right now. Would you mind if the one I'm making has a a similar shape? Creating one from scratch for Max right now. 

What do you mean by creating a 3D case? You mean shell?


----------



## kkugel

It's just two issues I have now: The 38DJ just produces no sound below 45 Hz, although it is specified to reach 20. I tried wiring it internally parallel, no damper, no XO or resistor but there's just no sound in that range. Does it only work if it is in a closed IEM shell? Other issue is the 2389D being wayyyyy too loud for the 38DJ without 1000 ohm. See the following pic for what happens when I remove the 1000 ohm (yes the 38DJ is in this measurement too :O ) (I have a 20 ohm on the 38DJ but it doesn't make it noticeably more silent):


----------



## Aldo40 (Apr 16, 2021)

I think your 38DJ got hot 

whether they are enclosed in the shell or without shell (open) does not change much by measuring


----------



## Aldo40

I measured the 38D1X, it should look like this, the DJ dips less than this:


----------



## Wgibson

So I think I know the answer, but what is the closest non sonion thing to a 2389? Knowles 29689?


----------



## kkugel (Apr 16, 2021)

Aldo40 said:


> I think your 38DJ got hot
> 
> whether they are enclosed in the shell or without shell (open) does not change much by measuring


Hmm might be a possibility. Both I got have this equally though. I'll wait for my 711 and see what it does. @Wgibson Do you happen do have a 38DJ or 38D1X you could measure with your Dayton IMM-6?


----------



## Wgibson

kkugel said:


> Hmm might be a possibility. Both I got have this equally though. I'll wait for my 711 and see what it does. @Wgibson Do you happen do have a 38DJ or 38D1X you could measure with your Dayton IMM-6?



38D1XJ, yeah I can do that in the next day or two. I don't have a 2389 to compare though.


----------



## kkugel

Just measured in REW to make sure my phone is not the cuplrit... well looks like something is wrong with the 38DJ..


----------



## Aldo40

Wgibson said:


> So I think I know the answer, but what is the closest non sonion thing to a 2389? Knowles 29689?


Yes


----------



## Aldo40

I left you a measure of the 38DX1 at the top of the page, made with a 711


----------



## mattmatt

Aldo40 said:


> I left you a measure of the 38DX1 at the top of the page, made with a 711


Looking at his measurements, i actually believe that there's a problem with his jig. Even with the 2389D, the cut off of the lows is somehow the same.


----------



## tomekk

mattmatt said:


> Hey man, I'm also creating a shell right now. Would you mind if the one I'm making has a a similar shape? Creating one from scratch for Max right now.
> 
> What do you mean by creating a 3D case? You mean shell?


Go ahead. I'll be happy if my enclosure inspires your project. If I can find impression forms before I move to a new apartment I'll post a pics about prototyping the creation of a universal shell.

My workshop and projects are based on manual work because that is my favorite way to spend my time. Working with a computer limits time and allows for a lot of imagination, but in my case manual work is the whole idea.


----------



## kkugel

Aldo40 said:


> I left you a measure of the 38DX1 at the top of the page, made with a 711


Thank you! I asked him for a measurement because I know he has a Dayton IMM-6 too


----------



## kkugel

mattmatt said:


> Looking at his measurements, i actually believe that there's a problem with his jig. Even with the 2389D, the cut off of the lows is somehow the same.


Lol never though to measure the 2389D bass to check...you're right! Gonna measure with a 711 next week


----------



## Jerry-S

So I just finished my latest build which is basically the MASM3 pro. Buffing it to get it shiny was a long and painful process.
So I thought I would compare my latest build (MASM3pro) to my old (very first) one.

The original was basically Furco build (Wood faceplate). And it was a bit tight after wearing for a few hours so I sanded it down and now its not so tight but also doesn't fit quite as good. Dont really care how it looks (its all about the sound,right!)

Sound wise the MASM3pro is better in most ways to the original(Furco). Better imaging, better instrument separation. Tighter, more well defined bass, if a little bit less in quantity. But this could just be that the originals bass is a bit looser and has longer decay time so gives the overall impression of more.
I really enjoy how the mids are done and would like to know how it graphs. Particularly I want to know where and how much pinna gain there is as the amount seems very good for my tastes. If anyone could lead me to a graph of it I would very much appreciate it. 

Very happy with the sound, 
Thanks to the community.


----------



## mattmatt

Talking to Kkugel, he asked me a really good question and let's see how you guys approach this. 

How do you make sure that the IEMs you make has a great microdetail retrieval? 

Let's one up the question.

How do you tune for these:
1. Microdetail retrieval
2. Soundstage
3. Instrument separation

What are the parameters you guys try to achieve to have these stuff checked? I think we came a long way through this thread but I think I haven't seen a discussion about this. Hope this come up with great ideas for everyone to share.


----------



## Aldo40

Whether it’s question 1, 2 or 3, everything is related to a good phase-in, (I’m talking about optimal phase-in) and the choice of drivers.

For the recovery of micro details, we can add that it is necessary to have low THD rates to clean the signal.

Here too it is a story of driver choice and optimal setting, for which you can help yourself waterfall or impulsive measures.


----------



## Max spl

1) Microdetail = more extended high frequencies, more db on the high frequencies , Pick the right drivers,  add more drivers . 

2) Soundstage = metallic bores to the high frequencies , horn type metallic bores for the highs , Big ID tubes,  more dbs over 10khz. 
( the last method is not for est drivers ) find a way to make one micro hole to leak some sound out of the shell from the mid - high frequencies,  you loose some DBs but this method make sound less harsh and makes it noticeable wider. 

3) Separation = a very good crossover,  good drivers, nozzle with 3 bores and up, bass shelf, V or W shaped sound.


----------



## Luffytaro

Hello all, I finish a green one. I will try to make all color. So excited : )


----------



## Max spl (Apr 18, 2021)

Looks nice.  Nice colors 👌


----------



## kkugel

Luffytaro said:


> Hello all, I finish a green one. I will try to make all color. So excited : )


Stunning build!


----------



## Xymordos

Jerry-S said:


> So I just finished my latest build which is basically the MASM3 pro. Buffing it to get it shiny was a long and painful process.
> So I thought I would compare my latest build (MASM3pro) to my old (very first) one.
> 
> The original was basically Furco build (Wood faceplate). And it was a bit tight after wearing for a few hours so I sanded it down and now its not so tight but also doesn't fit quite as good. Dont really care how it looks (its all about the sound,right!)
> ...



Oh that gradient is lovely! Nicely done


----------



## Max spl (Apr 18, 2021)

I'm out from this thread. I may come back one day. Keep going the Great work.


----------



## discus123

Luffytaro said:


> Hello all, I finish a green one. I will try to make all color. So excited : )


Nice build. Excellent ! What kind of uv resin you used ?


----------



## Luffytaro

discus123 said:


> Nice build. Excellent ! What kind of uv resin you used ?


No brand, just cheap UV resin


----------



## Aldo40

Luffytaro said:


> Hello all, I finish a green one. I will try to make all color. So excited : )


very nice green color 
it makes me think of the green bottle


----------



## Jerry-S

Xymordos said:


> Oh that gradient is lovely! Nicely done


Thanks, I tried to experiment with different colors and techniques and I found some that I like.
Thats High praise on this forum seeing as how there are so many people here that are much better at this than me.
I found out through trial and error what works and what doesn't. I like to make the canal/stem clear for aesthetics and its also easier to clean when its dirty. Also layering gives depth and dimension to the piece, thats not well captured in photos but in real life changes with every angle and looks cool.

Do you also have a set of the MASM3pro?


----------



## Jerry-S

Luffytaro said:


> No brand, just cheap UV resin


I hope its skin-safe resin. 😊


----------



## Xymordos

Jerry-S said:


> Thanks, I tried to experiment with different colors and techniques and I found some that I like.
> Thats High praise on this forum seeing as how there are so many people here that are much better at this than me.
> I found out through trial and error what works and what doesn't. I like to make the canal/stem clear for aesthetics and its also easier to clean when its dirty. Also layering gives depth and dimension to the piece, thats not well captured in photos but in real life changes with every angle and looks cool.
> 
> Do you also have a set of the MASM3pro?




I like seeing pretty designs since I can't make shells myself   Not very artsy. 

I've never built a MASM3pro actually


----------



## kkugel

Jerry-S said:


> I hope its skin-safe resin. 😊


Using non skin safe resin and coating it with 2 layers of skin safe resin is actually genius, might do that too and save a lot of money


----------



## tomekk

Anti dust and warehouse crumbs containment for open prototyping.


----------



## Jerry-S

Xymordos said:


> I like seeing pretty designs since I can't make shells myself   Not very artsy.
> 
> I've never built a MASM3pro actually


You should definitely try the MASM3pro. Its worth it in my mind. But then again mine are customs and might not sound exactly like the universal.
The whole reason I started down this DIY road was because I wanted to know what all the fuss was when people talked about their custom sounding better than the universal. And now that I know, I really don't want to wear any of my universals except when listening for very short periods of time and other specific situations only.
The deep fit of the custom blocks the outside world out almost completely, so a low volume can be sufficient. Also the immersion factor coupled with improved imaging just brings me a much more realistic and enjoyable experience. YMMV, that's just how I hear them. 

Maybe I the opposite from you? I'm only average at understanding the electrical side but I really enjoy the creative (artsy) side of building the shells. 😁


----------



## Jerry-S

kkugel said:


> Using non skin safe resin and coating it with 2 layers of skin safe resin is actually genius, might do that too and save a lot of money


Yes, very cost effective but after 2 extra coats the fit may be a bit on the tight side. 
I made this mistake building my customs at first. And I thought thats just how they were supposed to be (tight fitting)
I couldnt wear them for more than an hour or two without discomfort. And when I removed them would feel slight pain lasting 10-15 min. But would slowly fade away.
Now changing the way I make them to be less tight has greatly helped comfort/fit. Can wear for hours without hotspots or pain.
Moral of the story: be careful how many coats you apply.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

@Jerry-S 
Try MASM 3 Speed Record
Knowles GU and RAB32257
no dampers
same tubing like MASM3

tuning might not be engaging like MASM3 i made years ago, but transient speed is worth the money
well, i think MASM architecture is now very old and i have to think of a new build which is easier to make and suites nowadays frequency response tastes like the Harman


thinking of using no crossovers 
RAB32063 and a woofer(maybe dynamic)
heavily damped woofer and some tuning to RAB32063(tube lenght for resonances and damper and some resistance to shape 3kHz pinnae region)


----------



## Aldo40

Jerry-S, t takes one or two weeks for the ear to get used to customs, at first it can be slightly painful because they are a little tight but then one is feeling more


----------



## amemisome

dhruvmeena96 said:


> well, i think MASM architecture is now very old and i have to think of a new build which is easier to make and suites nowadays frequency response tastes like the Harman


There are some criticisms about the Harman tuning that are often voiced, mostly the forward upper-midrange that makes it sound too shouty for some.
Instead of Harman, perhaps it would be an idea to use a similar target that is a bit more conservative with the upper mids like Oratory1990's Usound target or @toranku v5 target. These would probably sit better with a larger portion of people, if that's what you're going for.

However I remember that you posted about your own preference tuning in a previous post, so why not use that instead?
In the end there's always going to be people who don't like something about the tuning, you might as well make something that you enjoy using yourself


----------



## Xymordos

Jerry-S said:


> You should definitely try the MASM3pro. Its worth it in my mind. But then again mine are customs and might not sound exactly like the universal.
> The whole reason I started down this DIY road was because I wanted to know what all the fuss was when people talked about their custom sounding better than the universal. And now that I know, I really don't want to wear any of my universals except when listening for very short periods of time and other specific situations only.
> The deep fit of the custom blocks the outside world out almost completely, so a low volume can be sufficient. Also the immersion factor coupled with improved imaging just brings me a much more realistic and enjoyable experience. YMMV, that's just how I hear them.
> 
> Maybe I the opposite from you? I'm only average at understanding the electrical side but I really enjoy the creative (artsy) side of building the shells. 😁



I'm more interested in building quirky designs  My knowledge in electronics is pretty bad too, luckily the XOs used in IEMs aren't too complicated.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

amemisome said:


> There are some criticisms about the Harman tuning that are often voiced, mostly the forward upper-midrange that makes it sound too shouty for some.
> Instead of Harman, perhaps it would be an idea to use a similar target that is a bit more conservative with the upper mids like Oratory1990's Usound target or @toranku v5 target. These would probably sit better with a larger portion of people, if that's what you're going for.
> 
> However I remember that you posted about your own preference tuning in a previous post, so why not use that instead?
> In the end there's always going to be people who don't like something about the tuning, you might as well make something that you enjoy using yourself


thats why i said, like harman and not harman itself
and there is unofficial 2019 version harman which sound very decent compared to IE2017

@toranku v5 and @oratory1990 targets sounds nice
no criticism, both sound natural

preferences changes over time and i have given harman a lot of time over the period of covid19
well, human highest sensitivity occurs in 100Hz to 1kHz and that region needs to be flat
second thing, its impossible to make a 2nd order dominant Diffuse feild iem as far i know, only one i remember is EX1000 and the sony 16mm(which are not diffuse feild but has linear mids and bass sort of, but hits pretty deep)
so bass boost is needed most of the time

some people like it at 150Hz, Harman states at 250Hz and normally a studio room gain on low frequency reinforcement in real life happens at 300Hz
so any point in between 100Hz to 300Hz can be used as a point to raise the bass

where i experiment nowadays is at uppermids or pinnae gain structure(sony z1r... i am looking at you)
people all around the world average is kind of 3kHz
but i feel its safe from 2.5kHz to 3.5kHz
depends on how you bass boost and what actually suites your ear

and the last part, boost the last octave as much as you can without effecting the main FR, and then decide how much air you actually need
because air or the 10kHz to 20kHz part is like chef kiss

see, every one knows that 711 isnt accurate there, but when comparing two iem, with same insertion and same environment, it can actually tell you the relative amount of air the iem produces, if not the exact amount

my preferences are nowadays more like extreme ends boosted and middle reference
i need chest bursting sub and infra bass and the air which makes me listen to mic and recording artifacts without even disturbing reference mids and uppermids


----------



## amemisome

dhruvmeena96 said:


> thats why i said, like harman and not harman itself
> and there is unofficial 2019 version harman which sound very decent compared to IE2017


Oh sorry I misread, nevermind about my previous post then.



dhruvmeena96 said:


> some people like it at 150Hz, Harman states at 250Hz and normally a studio room gain on low frequency reinforcement in real life happens at 300Hz
> so any point in between 100Hz to 300Hz can be used as a point to raise the bass
> 
> where i experiment nowadays is at uppermids or pinnae gain structure(sony z1r... i am looking at you)
> ...


I completely agree with this statement, especially the pinna gain being safe between 2.5-3.5kHz.
After lots of experimentation with EQ on the few different IEMs that I own, I found that all of these placements can work.
This to me was completely mind blowing since I had assumed this was set in stone or something lol.

The bass boost I think is really a personal preference, starting anywhere between 100-300Hz can work but it's a part that people are really sensitive to changes to imo.
I have seen people call a 200~250Hz starting point for the bass boost mud while others call it thin, but once you start changing it lower and higher the reviews become even more polarizing.


I can't wait to see what you'll put together!


----------



## dhruvmeena96

amemisome said:


> Oh sorry I misread, nevermind about my previous post then.
> 
> 
> I completely agree with this statement, especially the pinna gain being safe between 2.5-3.5kHz.
> ...


Use RAB32063 as starting point
Flat bass and 3kHz pinnae

Use tube like 12mm 2mm ID to get some resonances above 3kHz and make a proper pinnae

Add 20ohm resistance
White damper in tube(has to be adjusted to see how damping really effects

You get a pinnae perfect driver

Now the trick is woofer

What I need is 40ohm woofer so I can flatten the impedance 

And then add a full circuit zobel
(Flat Impedance for the win)


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Also, if admins are watching this
Desktop headfi website for some reason is not showing me like button


----------



## Jerry-S

Aldo40 said:


> Jerry-S, t takes one or two weeks for the ear to get used to customs, at first it can be slightly painful because they are a little tight but then one is feeling more


I think I understand what you are saying. But I have been wearing the same set for 3 years and still get discomfort. So its not an issue of getting used to it over time.


----------



## Jerry-S

dhruvmeena96 said:


> @Jerry-S
> Try MASM 3 Speed Record
> Knowles GU and RAB32257
> no dampers
> ...


----------



## Jerry-S

dhruvmeena96 said:


> people all around the world average is kind of 3kHz
> but i feel its safe from 2.5kHz to 3.5kHz
> 
> 
> ...


Definitely 
I find my personal preference lines up with yours also, 
These are the things im looking for in my next project. Any ideas?😋


----------



## dhruvmeena96

@Jerry-S rab gets you uppermid and sort of treble 

It's still dark but due to being damperless or not restricted

It can produce some really nice airy feel


----------



## Aldo40

Jerry-S said:


> I think I understand what you are saying. But I have been wearing the same set for 3 years and still get discomfort. So its not an issue of getting used to it over time.


I was talking about a new custom. We can do 10 x the same it is not sure that there is all the time the same thickness has the same , it 'depends on my sanding and varnish. Now if you have problems even.on your old custom for 3 years, then yes you have to worry before having health complications!


----------



## Jerry-S

dhruvmeena96 said:


> @Jerry-S rab gets you uppermid and sort of treble
> 
> It's still dark but due to being damperless or not restricted
> 
> It can produce some really nice airy feel


I agree with this. 
I actually removed the black mesh filter on the RAB32257 as I preferred the little extra bass  (tested both ways before closing up the shell)
The upper treble is definitely there but reduced in amplitude, therefore never becomes offensive for me.
I actually EQ the treble region to add more sparkle/air. Its kind of a trade off in my opinion, on one side I love that I can listen to my rock and metal tracks at loud volume without it killing me but I also wish it had just a bit more in the upper regions. What can a fella do?


----------



## Jerry-S

Aldo40 said:


> I was talking about a new custom. We can do 10 x the same it is not sure that there is all the time the same thickness has the same , it 'depends on my sanding and varnish. Now if you have problems even.on your old custom for 3 years, then yes you have to worry before having health complications!


Right! I get what you are saying now.
Thats exactly why they look like crap now because I sanded them down to fit a bit looser and haven't bothered to put another coat on them for fear that they will fit tightly again after a new coat of UV.


----------



## Max spl

Hello
Needs anyone E50DT0005/D tweeter from sonion. ? From 2pcs and up of Course.
More drivers the cheaper we buy them .
If yes , tell me to buy them together and get better A price.


----------



## kkugel

Max spl said:


> Hello
> Needs anyone E50DT0005/D tweeter from sonion. ? From 2pcs and up of Course.
> More drivers the cheaper we buy them .
> If yes , tell me to buy them together and get better A price.


Hi, yes I want some, 4 or 8 depending on price


----------



## Max spl

Hi  kkugel.🙂
Wow 4 -  8 Sets or PCs ?
I need 4 Sets. 
Tomorrow we will have the final price. I asked soundlink to bring me some drivers and he said ok . You can ask him directly  but tell him to makes us a better price because we are friends from headfi.


----------



## Max spl

I want to save some money.  How can we do this ?


----------



## kkugel

Max spl said:


> I want to save some money.  How can we do this ?


pcs. So you asked Soundlink to stock these drivers? You can tell them to maybe make a coupon code "headfi" so we all can order


----------



## Max spl (Apr 22, 2021)

kkugel said:


> So you asked Soundlink to stock these drivers?


Yes . They have only few in stock .


kkugel said:


> You can tell them to maybe make a coupon code "headfi" so we all can order


Ok . This sounds a good idea. I will try it but I don't think will do it .


----------



## kkugel

Max spl said:


> Yes . They have only few in stock .
> 
> Ok . This sounds a good idea. I will try it but I don't think will do it .


Neat! Did they tell when they have stock?


----------



## Max spl

kkugel said:


> Neat! Did they tell when they have stock?


I asked again and they have already a few in stock.  You can tell them I told you and order directly.  They don't have many of those drivers for now . Only a few . Dont forget to ask them for better prices .


----------



## huuchuc

Max spl said:


> You can tell them I told you and order directly.


Hi, does it work for me.
I need 2pcs of E50DT0005/D tweeter too.

Just want to confirm, the soundlink that you are talking about is:
https://soundlink.aliexpress.com/store/group/DIY-IEM-In-ear-monitor/830007_502702611.html
isn't it?

P/s: Thanks @kkugel for recommendation.


----------



## Max spl

huuchuc said:


> Hi, does it work for me.
> I need 2pcs of E50DT0005/D tweeter too.
> 
> Just want to confirm, the soundlink that you are talking about is:
> ...


Yes this soundlink from Ali. 
I believe kkugel bought already 2 sets if im not doing wrong. 

You can write them directly. 
E50DT0005/D

She have 4 pieces left. No more .

I was ready to buy them but soundlink never does for me a good discount.  You can buy them . 
Write her before someone else buy them if you really like those  E50DT0005/D drivers. 

I bought the most drivers and she makes me at 220 usd  5 usd discount not even with free shipping. What guys .
I will never buy again from soundlink.  This was my last time for me .


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Max spl said:


> Yes this soundlink from Ali.
> I believe kkugel bought already 2 sets if im not doing wrong.
> 
> You can write them directly.
> ...


Do you even know the meaning of MOQ
you have to order on MOQ and the prices automatically reduce
why whine about total discount when you are getting it for less price 
Soundlink served us well and i feel the MOQ price is lower than Mouser, Digikey and other distributors

You dont get discount on full bill per se. Free shipping lol for 220USD nowadays on parts is very hard to get also


----------



## tomekk (Apr 23, 2021)

Max spl said:


> You can write them directly.
> E50DT0005/D
> 
> She have 4 pieces left. No more .


Two pairs left, unit price is 20 25$.

I got mine E50D from someone helpful.


----------



## kkugel

Max spl said:


> I asked again and they have already a few in stock.  You can tell them I told you and order directly.  They don't have many of those drivers for now . Only a few . Dont forget to ask them for better prices .


I don't see them on Aliexpress. Do you mean order by messaging them?


----------



## mattmatt

Max spl said:


> Yes this soundlink from Ali.
> I believe kkugel bought already 2 sets if im not doing wrong.
> 
> You can write them directly.
> ...


Why would you demand a discount in your favor tho ? Why would you expect a special discount and free shipping? A 5 dollar discount is actually a nice gesture from them already and I don't get why you're upset about it. 

I've given them several thousand dollars already and never expected something special in return.


----------



## kkugel

I didn't order them yet, seems they are out of stock now. But they told me they will restock them if customers are satisfied


----------



## Luffytaro

This is my super rotate tool, haha, almost component from my daughter toy, haha


----------



## Max spl

I always try to get discounts but they don't do it . It worths to try . I don't like them sometimes and they make me crazy because they raise the prices without reason. A product for example when it costs 40 usd and after one month costs 43 usd and after 2 months 48 usd and then after they lower the price to 40 again this makes for me no sense. 
I order very often . Every time I order is at least 200 usd .They trust me and they like me. The people who work there are like my friends. You will see in some days they will have more E50DT0005/D.  
I ordered more of those drivers and then anyone can order if you want and everyone is happy 🙂 .BTW I like sonion more than knowles.


----------



## mattmatt

Max spl said:


> I always try to get discounts but they don't do it . It worths to try . I don't like them sometimes and they make me crazy because they raise the prices without reason. A product for example when it costs 40 usd and after one month costs 43 usd and after 2 months 48 usd and then after they lower the price to 40 again this makes for me no sense.
> I order very often . Every time I order is at least 200 usd .They trust me and they like me. The people who work there are like my friends. You will see in some days they will have more E50DT0005/D.
> I ordered more of those drivers and then anyone can order if you want and everyone is happy 🙂 .BTW I like sonion more than knowles.


I think they base their prices depending on the exchange rates from their currency. A discount is a discount and I think we should be thankful if they ever give us discounts even for a very small amount. It's not their obligation to give us discounts to be honest. I think sonion has a less wonky impedance response compared to knowles.


----------



## Aldo40

soundlink on incredible rates, it would not even come to my mind to ask for lower rates while they are rare to offer us the opportunity to buy a pair of drivers.

Ask the distributor for a MOQ of 25 units and I don’t think you’ll get a better price than soundlink can get because soundlink orders up to 1000 units MOQ!

The DIY above all is a passion, if you want to save money, it’s not DIY that you have to do because you can spend a lot of money, you can never repeat it enough, the DIY is a passion and tried to imagine if soundlink does not exist.
..


----------



## Max spl (Apr 24, 2021)

Is bad to ask for discount ? Is bad that I want the prices i bought those drivers a year ago for the same price  ?
Are you rich ? because I'm not.
If yes then ok...
IS BAD TO BARGAIN ?

No they don't buy 1000 units MOQ and I'm sure about that .I don't want to go in to details.

DIY IS ABOUT SAVING MONEY .
I don't really like this how is going.
No one takes advantage over me in this way. Not in this life. Not from me. I prefer to buy cheap drivers or wait for better prices.

If soundlink doesn't exist then I'll buy DDs , blessing ,Generic BAs ,etc  from other shops.

if soundlink doesn't exist I'll keep building iems with less money to be honest. 😆🤣

Soundlink is just a shop. Imagine if sonion or knowles doesn't exist.  Lol


----------



## Max spl (Apr 24, 2021)

mattmatt said:


> I think they base their prices depending on the exchange rates from their currency. A discount is a discount and I think we should be thankful if they ever give us discounts even for a very small amount. It's not their obligation to give us discounts to be honest. I think sonion has a less wonky impedance response compared to knowles.



I was thinking about it long time ago and I'm sure this isn't the reason.
You know isn't fair to raise prices.  Keep the prices stable or lower the prices is what all do .


----------



## Max spl (Apr 24, 2021)

Anyway let's see how the new tweeters from sonion will sound.  I'm very curious 🤔 I'm also happy for ordering those drivers. 
Will outperform the famous knowles tweeters ? Let's see . 🙂


----------



## mattmatt

Max spl said:


> I was thinking about it long time ago and I'm sure this isn't the reason.
> You know isn't fair to raise prices.  Keep the prices stable or lower the prices is what all do .


We are not the one's who can say if it is fair or not. Not because we get the shorter end of the stick means it isn't fair. Unstable prices is a norm with all products. Especially if different currency takes a play. Exchange rates, demands are not stable and so are prices. 

You want a stable prices unless if lowers but it's a sin if rises? That's not how business and economics works, sad to say.


----------



## Aldo40

MaxSpl

If you can find cheaper drivers on a regular basis then go ahead and do the calculations.

Find us in the same place where there are all the parts to make IEM, especially with Sonion, good luck.

I wonder why you didn’t go straight to the full DD, you could make IEM for 10 euros.

If you really want to save money, it doesn’t help to spit on soundlink, makes us beautiful IEM with DD and just posted nice pictures, it will be nice to see a little diversity.

Soundlink is not a shop? What is it? whether real or virtual, they still have a commercial label, they don’t make the packages? the package labels?

Then who is it?


----------



## mattmatt

My take on DIY iems and I think this thought was established some time ago. 

No, going DIY is not always about saving yourself money or is a guarantee to save you money. At time, it's actually more expensive and labor intensive compared to just buying an off the shelf IEM especially with chinese brands that have multiple drivers. 

Nothing wrong to want to get stuff cheaper but I think it's weird to think that they are obligated to follow what we want because it will not always be like that especially if they are running a business. Or take it personally on them if they won't give you discounts or privileges. SoundLink is a great shop in my opinion and many folks do think so too.


----------



## Max spl

If you build iems like a pro then you save thousands of dollars for sure , no doubt about it. 
You saw my photos I posted before,  I have lots of drivers and I have destroyed the Estats which costs a lot + over 16 drivers from sonion are completely destroyed. 

It may cost me 10000 euro to build my dream sounding iem but I will still cry about raising the prices and not getting discounts . 
I Hope you understand it .

Soundlink is the best shop for BAs in the world, Soundlink loves me for being his costumer believe me.

@Aldo40 

Yes I will build iems with single DDs .

Check photo below. 10mm Carbon duall dynamic driver . I'm waiting some shells for it , it is too big and doesn't fit inside a 10 mm shell without blocking the holes around the driver . Very Very difficult to tune. 
Do you know how to tune DDs ?

I was thinking also for a new hybrid iem with 15 mm beryllium driver + E50DT0005/D.
For me good DDs have the best bass-sub bass. For example the 38D1X don't comes even close to a good- well tuned DD .
Some nice projects coming soon 👌


----------



## kkugel

Btw I am discussing with the factory of the 10mm planars on Alibaba. They offer them cheap there but want 35$ for shipping which is a rip off imo. I know chinese shipping rates and that tiny stuff ships for $5 max as express. Maybe we can ask soundlink to stock these, if enough people are interested.


----------



## Aldo40 (Apr 24, 2021)

L'hybride de ma gamme utilisait un 10mm, mes guides sont faits maison par rapport à l'orientation du pilote dans la coque, j'arrive a placé mon EST ainsi que le support BA, je sors ma propre coque avec l'impression 3D donc je m'assure-vous que tout s'intègre bien.

C'est déjà un sport de pouvoir tout mettre en place en essayant de garder les coques suffisamment petites.

Pour les pilotes en feu, je n'en ai pas jeté quelques-uns à la poubelle au début, pas autant que vous, je pense peut-être une douzaine mais j'ai vite compris et corrigé les erreurs.

Si vous détruisez autant de pilotes, ce n'est pas la faute de la BA. C'est toujours la faute de celui qui y travaille.
J'ai même fait frire du DD, les fils sont si courts sur la bobine qu'elle peut rapidement chauffer. Quand on n'a pas compris comment soudé ces BA ou DD et avec quel fer soudé s'est adapté, alors quels sont les choix des conducteurs, il n'y a pas beaucoup de différence de solidité.

La mise en œuvre du DD est comme pour le BA sur procède pas à pas, on commence par mesurer le driver dans un tube puis on voit si on le filtre, si on l'amortit, avec quel milieu on va le coupler etc. .


Le 38dx1 bien implémenté peut être très proche du meilleur DD. Ecoutez la basse de l'erlkonig ou de l'U12T et vous voyez, il ne suffit pas d'aller le plus bas possible, le DD sur un petit avantage, la basse ne se limite pas à ça.

Ce n'est pas le même genre d'écoute.

L'équipage mobile du BA est plus petit et plus léger et donc plus rapide qu'un DD.

Un DD a une plus grande surface émissive un équipage mobile plus lourd et sont généralement plus gourmands, c'est ce qui donne ce claquement sur la partie infra grave mais les deux technologies sont complémentaires car dans la basse les BA sont plus rapides, on ne peut rien y faire et il n'y a pas de secret, c'est juste physique et mécanique.

Et pour la communauté du bricolage, j'ai encore mesuré aujourd'hui le 38dx1 non filtré juste amorti pour prouver qu'il peut descendre autant qu'un DD et que sa forte décroissance est propre


----------



## kkugel

At what temperature do you guys have your soldering irons as you are frying drivers? I've not fried a single one, but I'm also soldering at 480 Celsius to melt solder quickly.


----------



## Aldo40 (Apr 24, 2021)

350 celsius for my soldering irons , it's 15 watts
and for tinned litz wires I use a weller station of 80w


----------



## Xymordos

I've actually fried more DDs than BAs since the DD comes flying at the soldering iron if the magnet is too strong...My soldering iron is at 480C


----------



## kkugel

Xymordos said:


> I've actually fried more DDs than BAs since the DD comes flying at the soldering iron if the magnet is too strong...My soldering iron is at 480C


Oh, did not consider that DDs do this lol. IMO soldering BAs is 100% safe if you follow the rule to not heat up longer than 3 seconds


----------



## Max spl

Aldo40 said:


> L'hybride de ma gamme utilisait un 10mm, mes guides sont faits maison par rapport à l'orientation du pilote dans la coque, j'arrive a placé mon EST ainsi que le support BA, je sors ma propre coque avec l'impression 3D donc je m'assure-vous que tout s'intègre bien.
> 
> C'est déjà un sport de pouvoir tout mettre en place en essayant de garder les coques suffisamment petites.
> 
> ...


I can't understand


----------



## Aldo40

What don’t you understand?


----------



## Max spl

Aldo40 said:


> What don’t you understand?


You posted in another language and I don't understand.


----------



## Max spl

Aldo40 said:


> What don’t you understand?


Ok I translated.


----------



## Max spl (Apr 24, 2021)

@ Aldo40

I know you try to help me.
I understand it .

I know how everything works.
I'm 30 years old and I started to play with crossovers - speakers , amps from 15 years old . The BAs are very small, one wrong move and is easy to damage them or to be clogged etc.

Are millimeter small. Needs attention. I needed to repeat it many times. Isn't easy.
Now I can  build iems relative easy I can say.

Now im not shaking ,I don't get crazy and I don't throw them away or smashing them because they don't sound as I want.

Now for bass ? DDs vs BAs
My favorite part is bass .
I love bass , Bass for me is everything.

One day I was in the gym ( 5 years ago ) and one friend bought the shure se846 ( 1000 bucks ) and he told me these are the best basshead iems in the world.  And I said wow,  I want to try them. And said ok,  smiling. Was so proud.  This time I had the acoustic research ar m2 with me in the gym and one pair of old dunu  ( 100 bucks )
The acoustic research was rooted with viper4android installed "" very well tuned for bass frequencies ""   when it comes to power bass was an absolute beast.  He gave me the shure and I start laughing.  I asked  what is this ? this has no bass , I gave him mine, he was speechless.  Can really a BA produce this grip , this punch, this slamm, this impact , this mind blowing bass ? Breathtaking power.

A list of basshead iems

Cammpfire audio Vegas,  atlas,
dunu Luna,
All imr acoustics iems with those  crazy 15 mm  big bass drivers.
Sony ier- z1r,
many other high end Sony iems,
future sonics,
hisoundaudio wooduo 60 dollars iem with extremely punchy bass.
Aurisonics asg
The list goes on ........

New Iem I want to buy "God bass like reviews "  , is the empire ears odin,  but i can't because they are extremely expensive.
I may buy them if I find them used.

Im gonna buy next month or in 2 months the thieaudio voyager 14 ,they say has insane bass for BAs  and it rumbles more than DDs .
So they describe it at least on their homepage. I'm very curious. Or it will be like dunu vs shure again

Downside of a DD you need a powerful dap  or dac / amp.
Then for a DD is easy peasy bass is easy.

BA bass can be faster with a better resolution and not always.

I like them both of course DDs and BAs.
I always add 2 dual BAs for bass otherwise isn't good for me.

In my other account on headfi I'm in the basshead iem thread years now.

NO BASS NO FUN  💯% ❤

I know long story 😂😂😂😂


----------



## Aldo40 (Apr 25, 2021)

Excuse me for my English, I’m French.

You’re 30 years old.

30 years ago, I was 20 years old (50 years old), and I also started at the age of 15, so 35 years in audio 

But it is not a competition of which started first, what counts is the journey that we did not have in the audio what we create, what has marked the minds, it seems to me that we have already discussed my journey together 

IEM is not like an acoustic loudspeaker.

Despite the years I’ve had to design acoustic speakers, DAC, amps, preamps and even CD transports, it didn’t make me the king of EMI filtering, it certainly helps, but we had to learn some things and especially listen to the experiences of others who were in the IEM before me, and even if we don’t have the same course, I have a deep respect for them because I know their journey in this environment very well , I speak of Dhruv in particular and many others who recognize themselves 

As for the bass in your list, I got the Dunu Luna, the vega too, have may have more bass currently, but that’s not all, I have IEM with double 38dx1 that rivals my hybrids, each have their advantages and disadvantages, I’m working on a DD/BA hybrid bass right now but it takes time to fully implement all of this.


----------



## ForceMajeure (Apr 25, 2021)

Regarding soldering DD's BA's etc...The rule of thumb is simply not to spend time doing it. It Should be as fast as a tap so less than a second even less than 0.5 sec. Having a too low solder iron temperature can be unbeneficial actually because you spend more time trying to solder things and transfer more heat doing so.

I like the 900m t-2c hakko tip, some of them iirc 900m-t 2cm even have a curved "pocket" inside that has solder retention capabilities. Thus far it's been good for me although for some smaller BA's that have vents close to the solder pads you have to be careful.

All your wires needs to be pre tinned. Using a dab of flux on the solder pads prior is a good idea although if you have vents near (twfk alike and some vented sonions f.e) avoid flux at all cost since you'll end up clogging the vents.

The usual temperature I use is 360-380. Sometimes I go lower but after being experienced, I just find that having a slightly higher temp and just doing a tap is much better and faster for me.

Everyone gets used to slightly different solder tips, temperatures, tweezer shapes etc...

The main issue we are facing is that because we use and reuse the same BAs for prototyping and having them uncased for listening tests, we end up soldering and unsoldering many times. Wires also dangling from the BAs with all kind of components attached including cables while listening to them uncased, tend to get disconnected and potentially damage the solder pads.

There are ways to save your solder pads if you have still access to a bit of the hard wire coming from the BA to the where the solder pads used to sit. You'll need a very strong magnifying glass and also a good bit of luck, sometimes just using a bit of solder on that bit of hard wire and then gluing the solder pads on top of it and heating it with a solder will recreate the connection. Of course you'll now have to be much more careful soldering and unsoldering wires to that BA and personally I would only solder once on it...


----------



## ForceMajeure

Ah one last thing I forgot to mention that might not be clear for folks that are completely new at this. When soldering a wire to a BA pad. You don't use tin and melt it while holding the wire next to the solder pad. It's not like through hole soldering.

You just need a bit of tin on your solder tip prior soldering, the less the better, and having made sure your wires are pre tinned at their extremities.

Then just create a contact while bringing the wire next to the solder pad and touching it with the solder iron tip. That's it. I know it might sound trivial to most of us but for folks completely new at this it might not be.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

for god sake
use tiny bit of solder flux gel on the solder point and overheating to the point burning solder iron(500C if it supports or your highest solder temp if below 500C) and just tap
thats the way to solder 
@ForceMajeure 
0.5second, ouch, so accurate timing


Max spl said:


> @ Aldo40
> 
> I know you try to help me.
> I understand it .
> ...


Campfire Vega....meh
Campfire Atlas.....meh
IMR Acoustics.....meh
Sony IER Z1R....some quality sound there
Which all sony...M9.... okayish
XB90EX vintage..... okayish
FutureSonic.. bloaty mess
Aurisonic...ear hurting bass
hisoundaudio wooduo(never heard of this brand)

Since you are 30years old.... i have a question mate
what is bass for you objectively and subjectively

also, i am 26 years old and have been making speakers since i was 12years old, amps when i was 19, hearing aids for social service when i was 21. Experience in building only helps you in soldering and how to assemble things. The more important thing is to understand the physics rather than being wowed by it.

Everyone agrees that bass is needed for fun but understanding how to tune the bass and the whole spectrum of frequencies is far more important for optimal balance
i wont do things like Vega or Atlas or aurisonics.... which just skew so much in bass that it sounds objectively and subjectively worse than Sony MH755(5$)

Even empire ears was plagued by too much treble or too much bass..... until there was odin, which actually helped them come out of the curse... Odin has respectable and fun bass without bleeding it into mids, nearly perfect pinnae boost and smooth treble. Empire redeemed themselves


also, frequency works differently inside a sealed ear canal environment and so is BA
and So is distortion and Harmonic orders(2nd order vs 3rd order)

and plus, you can buy any iem you want, we are nobody to change your opinions but we are here making DIY homemade iem. It would be more fun to make iem at home and we would be glad to help you out
*
now Lets do so myth busting*

- those who think that crossover smears sound are wrong... It has more to do with phase the crossover shift and simple tube and crossover adjustment can fix the acoustic phase which was earlier shifted by the capacitor

- those who think bass is justice, lemme tell you, its a far deeper topic.. i can make an iem with pretty neutral warmish bass and still trick most of ears to think its bass extended. It has to do with how the distortion is structured
the warm sound comes from 2nd order distortion or even harmonics added by the everything in chain...especially the speaker, as its most distortive one
Why dynamic driver sound so thundering and pleasing in bass, is because of its 2nd order dominant nature
it moves more air in volume at less pressure and its only one side radiating, the mechanism dont push the diaphram back hardly like push pull system
the BA, inherently has low surface area diaphragm, hence the air molecule on surface of BA diaphragm is low, but the pressure it generates due to moving iron nature is so high that it can literally translate into push pull

when we are only pushing air in general, we generate a model of high air pressure and low air pressure, which lead to 2nd order distortion because of natural thermal response
for example(not related to audio)
heat up air and then make it come back to room temperature slowly
this means that we quickly heat air(signal burst) and then slowly let it come down to room temperature(DD decay)

in BA, its hyper air heatup expansion and compression due to its higher pressure factor
its like heat and cool

now in audio language
Sir Nelson Pass has written over harmonic series and distortion and why odd harmonics are produced and why even are produced
basically and push pull design will be odd order harmonic dominant and this leads to the cold, dry, hyper resolving and fast sound whereas as even order sounds more like warm, wet, natural sounding with natural timbre decay

so, even if we have same frequency graph, the two iem can sound completely different

- For the acoustic phase to be flat for perfection, thats also kinda half true and half false
humans are more sensitive to dynamic phase shift rather than constant and brain can filter it out, so we have to only make sure that the phase doesnt lead to frequency cancellation. Having a flat phase has only very specific advantage that it causes less fatique over longer listening session


----------



## Wgibson

@dhruvmeena96 that's a lot of details to consider, thanks. Do you have any comments/opinions on sealed vs vented bass BAs?


----------



## kkugel

Does anyone have the calibration file for the chinese 711? My seller is slow to send it...


----------



## Max spl

dhruvmeena96 said:


> for god sake
> use tiny bit of solder flux gel on the solder point and overheating to the point burning solder iron(500C if it supports or your highest solder temp if below 500C) and just tap
> thats the way to solder
> @ForceMajeure
> ...


About  the iems I posted for bass  I don't believe you have eq them ,  had them or tested. have you realy heard them ? 

Are expensive bro . What job are you doing ?
I always trade or sell and buy new iems .
That's how I do it . 

The imr acoustics all of them have amazing bass . They have the BEST  15mm DDs for bass in the market right now . Are also meh... . Really now ? 
The Sony meh ? Mdr ex800st- mdr ex 1000 are also meh... ?
All iems are meh ... ?
The Atlas is my favorite iem . Because is very small, straight wearing , amazing bass and amazing sound. For me the Atlas is reference 😂😂😂

Why you don't post your opinion in the basshead iem thread to see the answers you'll get. ?
You aren't a basshead and that's for sure. This impossible for someone who loves bass or someone who wants the best to say those iems are meh... which is the best iem for bass for you ? I want to understand what you like  ? 

The dynamic drivers aren't only powerful and thundering on bass but also more natural than BAs.
But like I said I like both of them .


I want to buy and I will buy some iems for sure. 
I can't make diy iem for now to sound like those .  Is impossible. They have 1000 peoples who work on iems daily ,  are manufacturers,  designers etc , etc .

Can you build better iems than those  ?
Post me some of your work please , I want to see .

I do diy because I never found the perfect iem for me . I'm still looking for it .

What music do you listen and I'll tell you if you are basshead. 
I listen only to , hip hop,  dance, electro,  deep house,  G house,  some pop  and I test bass iems with Dabstep  . 

I prefer to have in my house dual SVS pb 16 ultra subs than bookshelf speakers for bass .
..........................................................................
About the theory. 
Do you believe you learn me something new ?

I don't need to understand everything .  No one in this world needs.
Is like you say , go to university to learn coding and then you can create Microsoft. 
..............................................................................
We don't need to say again the same things .
For the cap parallel forget it .
Isn't possible to fix it with tube lenght because is no SPACE in the shell. 
It MAY be possible with caps- resistors only .
Can you fix phase issue or driver acoustic cancelations with only resistors and caps ? 
Only here you can help me elsewhere you can't really help me @dhruvmeena96


----------



## Max spl (Apr 26, 2021)

kkugel said:


> Does anyone have the calibration file for the chinese 711? My seller is slow to send it...


You don't need any calibration file for the 711 .
Did you bought the soundcard they sell for the 711 because is calibrated with the soundcard. You can calibrate  with REW . See tutorial on YouTube.


----------



## Xymordos

kkugel said:


> Does anyone have the calibration file for the chinese 711? My seller is slow to send it...



The Chinese IEC711 should be plug and play with the sound card from the same shop.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Max spl said:


> About  the iems I posted for bass  I don't believe you have eq them ,  had them or tested. have you realy heard them ?
> 
> Are expensive bro . What job are you doing ?
> I always trade or sell and buy new iems .
> ...


First of all, burn in doesnt really change a lot on measurements like impulse and decay
its a brain thing because if the modern speaker are changing their sound even after tight tolerance of 10%, then whats the use of those +/-10% accuracy

read carefully, Sony is okayish

also, well, i may not be basshead like you or anyone else, i am more of balance guy... i love my bass till its not ruining my mids(i have heard and designed iem with basshelf at 200Hz while going beyond 15dB of bass)

all the campfire and all the bassy iems bass goes all the way to mids and thats what i hate... and i hate when its done on DD, because it just doesnt perform well
all the campfires and all the Acoustone and IMR sounds fat, muddy and bloated mess to me rather than bassy and well extended

dont get me wrong, i think you have not heard a really good bassy iem 

lets talk about Atlas shall we






see carefully, the bass rise from 1kHz
and its going to 15dB

as perceived volume to dB law 
every 3dB leads to double the perceived volume
so
lets take 1kHz to 400Hz
400Hz is double as loud
then 200Hz is double as loud 
making 200hz ... 4 times louder than 1khz
where human most sensitive hearing range is 100Hz to 1kHz, where he makes sense of fundamental tone like speech fundamentals etc
its already messing it up
and then wrong fundamental pinna which messes up timbre as well

i dont know why you like this
it may wow you initially and then its meh


Odin and Z1R are the greatest basshead iem
















meanwhile this iem(craft ears craft 6 custom) may be bass lean, it is hailed as one of the best bass heard on BA, even outpacing DD in what DD does and BA in what BA does.. you can read reviews on it
and this guy came from this thread itself and made an iem, which outpaced Tia driver on treble
https://www.craftears.com/products/model-ce6/



what i want to tell you is
keep your basshead hobby, but respect 200Hz to 1kHz flatness and proper uppermid pinna gain so atleast iem sound realsitic

also, i am using dayton ultimax 12 subwoofer


about my listening taste:
Metroboomin, Daft punk, Mondo Grosso, Eminem, Kanye west, Travis Scott, 21 Savage, Hans Zimmer, Borislav Slavov etc
i dont listen to trance and dub step

now,,,, well, my work
its so much lost in this tread that even i cannot find it where it all started. Other works i keep myself because i dont feel they deem worthy sharing
i only share stuff which is cheap to make, easy to make and is worthwhile

RAB-P series (for RAB driver)
MASM series (have almost 10 iteration and then further design updates as we go along)

i am working on a cheap, reliable bassy but realistic tuning iem


if you need really shot down in your throat bass while having perfect uppermids and realism and have big enough shell

why dont you try the hardest build by @piotrus-g 
the dual CI and TWFK
its still considered advanced build but those dual CI will shake you to the core and then more while not mudying like Atlas and polaris









its still a lot of bass, and i prefer leaking it as it still colours a lot of mids, but it has faster impulse than DD and is not muddy, just a bit more towards bloat on song
i would say, modify it like -3dB on bass and its a very nice V shape bass oriented iem


----------



## Max spl (Apr 27, 2021)

*@dhruvmeena96 *I swear ,  I came back to this thread 3 times.

*@Aldo40 *I was trying to hide who am I but you got me very fast . 😂 😉

I wanted to give up with diy iems many times but I simply can't.  I love this hobby and I'll continue trying to make the absolute basshead iem with BAs for sure.

I never get you wrong and don't also get me wrong , We simply disagree in many things. We have different opinions , we think different but I learned from you guys helpful things , tips and tricks.
No matter if I'm a basshead or not .

*General information about iems shells. *
About 3d Printing shells I'm still a noob . It simply takes a lot of time for me to design tubes inside a shell and is difficult for me to make perfect universal iem shapes ( I like to share my iem builds ) One friend helps me with iem shells but aren't perfect.
Once I have a perfect universal stl file I'll post of course.

*@dhruvmeena96 *
Now for the Atlas i like it a lot. Graphs doesn't show everything  , All iems are source dependable , which dac/amp plays a role.
The output impedance - power output also. The ibasso dx220 have the best bass separation , output impedance and sound for me for example.

Atlas is my favorite iem because it is small and I don't want to look like a musician when I walk around or in the gym. For Diy iems I don't care how they look but only how they sound. The atlas It doesn't mute everything,  is very very good iem and many will agree with it . I don't want to build with dual CIs , are too big in size and I don't like how they sound.
Like I said for me atlas is reference sounding with impressive dynamic sound and bass for a single DD.

I want to have also a flat response from 200hz to 1khz but I want a bass shelf  with 9 db boost at 30 hz and boosted extended highs. 2389D is the best mid driver  for me, I'll add 2x 2389D in my next build for sure. 

Single DD iems can't have a perfect Bass shelf because are SINGLE DDs.
That's why you see everywhere this kind of bass shelf. For a single DD to have a perfect bass shelf , flat mids and extended highs is impossible at least for now.
The companies who make hybrid iems and sound worse than airpods pro and charge twice the price are completely noobs.
Imr acoustics have like I said the best 15mm bass drivers in the market .
Are also noobs when it comes to sound tuning. Have a lots of harsh treble for me .

No I don't listen to trance music. I hate trance. Dubstep is the best music for me ONLY for testing bass response . If I achieve to make Dabstep music to sound amazing on bass then I have reached my goal 🙂


----------



## Max spl

BTW headfi have a great community but when it comes to postings doesn't let me delete a post and when I want to  correct something it shows edited even after 2 mins I simply hatte it.


----------



## kkugel

Xymordos said:


> The Chinese IEC711 should be plug and play with the sound card from the same shop.


Didn't buy the sound card but turns out the chinese 711 is plug and play with the apple 3.5mm dongle too...nice!


----------



## kkugel (Apr 29, 2021)

Quick update on my build: 711 made things a lot easier to work with and Dhruv helped me out a lot! I got a neat FR now which sounds amazing with quick tests. EST has not been added yet. The spike at 6.5k is a coupler resonance. Bass extends down linear to 6 Hz, crazy!

No more 1000 ohm series for me haha 

Edit: Most music sounds great, but classical music sounds super muddy! This is weird...


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Max spl said:


> *@dhruvmeena96 *I swear ,  I came back to this thread 3 times.
> 
> *@Aldo40 *I was trying to hide who am I but you got me very fast . 😂 😉
> 
> ...


Single DD cannot have perfect bass shelf?

Well you can tune it with perfect bass shelf , it's just that people don't go to the lengths hahahaha and it's time consuming in RnD


----------



## Max spl

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Single DD cannot have perfect bass shelf?
> 
> Well you can tune it with perfect bass shelf , it's just that people don't go to the lengths hahahaha and it's time consuming in RnD


You need to read carefully.  No it can't have it all . Perfect bass shelf and flat mids with extended treble.  Isn't possible.


----------



## Max spl (Apr 27, 2021)

One dd to do it all perfectly ? 
If so you don't need to build multi driver iems , better to start building iems with single DD .
Dhruv stop the madness. 
You disagree on everything


----------



## kkugel (Apr 27, 2021)

Max spl said:


> One dd to do it all perfectly ?
> If so you don't need to build multi driver iems , better to start building iems with single DD .
> Dhruv stop the madness.
> You disagree on everything


Dhruv is a genius pro, dude, he is right that DD can have proper bass shelf and the rest too. It's a whole different thing to do multi driver iems.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Max spl said:


> One dd to do it all perfectly ?
> If so you don't need to build multi driver iems , better to start building iems with single DD .
> Dhruv stop the madness.
> You disagree on everything


Extended treble depends on how good the driver is
But bass shelf is dependent on how you make things happen in back and front air volume


----------



## AMerePerson

I have a custom shell with 2 holes for tubes (old build with bad solder and damaged GV).

What’s the best build I can fit in this shell? I’m interested in the Finale 2 but the FED is out of stock. I’d like a build with lots of detail/resolution.


----------



## kkugel

How do you guys actually fit your sound tubes in premade shell nozzles? I got the soundlink 3D printed universal shells but I have 3 2mm ID (3mm outer diameter) tubes and more than 1 simply does not fit. I can probably go down to 1mm for bass but the other 2 need to stay at 2mm ID


----------



## Aldo40

Tube basse 1mm and terminal tube métal for medium/high, 
Look this vidéo


----------



## TOBIJampar

Hey there 

Last year I build iems with a BS6 + Zobel, sadly it seems that the left driver is giving up (I have no idea what's the reason, but it is ~20% quieter than the right now)

It seems that it is impossible to bet BS6 nowadays, but I really liked the sound of the build. Can you recommend a build with a similar sound signature?


----------



## tomekk

TOBIJampar said:


> Hey there
> 
> Last year I build iems with a BS6 + Zobel, sadly it seems that the left driver is giving up (I have no idea what's the reason, but it is ~20% quieter than the right now)
> 
> It seems that it is impossible to bet BS6 nowadays, but I really liked the sound of the build. Can you recommend a build with a similar sound signature?


It may not be a defect in the driver, but just a cold solder joint to be repaired. If you use Zobel - has the effect of lowering the volume. 
Measure the L/P channel resistance with a meter, maybe it can be fixed if there is a difference in ohms.


----------



## Wgibson

Does it have filters? Check for clogged filters (or could just be moisture)


----------



## TOBIJampar

Thanks for the tips.


tomekk said:


> It may not be a defect in the driver, but just a cold solder joint to be repaired. If you use Zobel - has the effect of lowering the volume.
> Measure the L/P channel resistance with a meter, maybe it can be fixed if there is a difference in ohms.


What do you mean with "- has the effect of reducing the volume"?
I tried measuring it, but all resistances and capacitances seems the same between both pieces.


Wgibson said:


> Does it have filters? Check for clogged filters (or could just be moisture)


The filters do not seem clogged to me. I can't see any residue in them.


----------



## mattmatt

Have you guys used wax guard or cerumen filters on your builds? 

Does it only need a 2mm ID tube?


----------



## kkugel (May 1, 2021)

I had something super weird happen with my build today. Crossovers are all working fine. I changed the length of my mid driver tube and suddenly my bass volume was reduced dramatically, even though it still measure the same. It's as if the harmonic distortion has been impacted. All of the slam and male vocal emotionality is gone now. The mid driver should not affect that range as it cuts wayyy above in the FR.


----------



## kkugel

Any Feedback on my current Frequency response?


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (May 2, 2021)

AMerePerson said:


> I have a custom shell with 2 holes for tubes (old build with bad solder and damaged GV).
> 
> What’s the best build I can fit in this shell? I’m interested in the Finale 2 but the FED is out of stock. I’d like a build with lots of detail/resolution.


Use ED29689 and ED30761 savant built mentioned in this thread



TOBIJampar said:


> Hey there
> 
> Last year I build iems with a BS6 + Zobel, sadly it seems that the left driver is giving up (I have no idea what's the reason, but it is ~20% quieter than the right now)
> 
> It seems that it is impossible to bet BS6 nowadays, but I really liked the sound of the build. Can you recommend a build with a similar sound signature?


BS6 has many iteration, which one in damper configuration.

If it was the bassy one, you can try dual CI and TWFK 

If it's neutral one
Try masm 3 and also add a wbfk on top of it 

If you want to design something new, then we can also help mate


----------



## kkugel

Guys if you use EST...tape the cables to the drivers STRONG! I teared them off and had to resolder the smallest connection ever...


----------



## mattmatt

kkugel said:


> Guys if you use EST...tape the cables to the drivers STRONG! I teared them off and had to resolder the smallest connection ever...


ghademn, man. this gives me anxiety. I never use alligator clips with my drivers. If you must do, wrap them with heat shrink so it won't dent the drivers. better yet, use blu tack or tack it. ) I also second being really careful with the ESTs. Good thing that I think I have spent a lot of time soldering in my life that I don't find it troublesome anymore to resolder this. But I did lift a pad off when I accidentally tugged the wire. That was not a good day to say the least. 

May I ask your soldering setup?


----------



## kkugel

mattmatt said:


> ghademn, man. this gives me anxiety. I never use alligator clips with my drivers. If you must do, wrap them with heat shrink so it won't dent the drivers. better yet, use blu tack or tack it. ) I also second being really careful with the ESTs. Good thing that I think I have spent a lot of time soldering in my life that I don't find it troublesome anymore to resolder this. But I did lift a pad off when I accidentally tugged the wire. That was not a good day to say the least.
> 
> May I ask your soldering setup?


Haha I've not noticed any denting or change in FR, the clamp force is not so high. I use a Hakko FX-888D soldering station on 480 C and this soldering holder with CFH electronic solder wire.


----------



## Wgibson

I use silicone tube as soft jaws when I put drivers in alligator clamps, get a wide reusable silicone drinking straw and cut off a short piece, put the driver inside and clamp. Or you could get smaller diameter and slip it over both jaws of the clamp.


----------



## tomekk (May 2, 2021)

Your 480*C makes me wonder about its high temperature.  I always use 320*C. No flux, well pretinned litz.


----------



## kkugel

tomekk said:


> Your 480*C makes me wonder about its high temperature.  I always use 320*C. No flux, well pretinned litz.


Drivers took it fine so far, 480 was genius today, was able to solder EST driver pads in like 0.3 seconds haha, no big heat transfer to driver at all


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Hello guys

Me and @kkugel has issue

Have you guys experienced that the iem has perfect response and it was sounding great initially

But due to something we both don't knsow sounds bad yet measure the same

Don't know why it's happening


----------



## kkugel (May 2, 2021)

Here's the best FR we achieved without EST Dhruv is talking about, it sounds like ass and as if singers are glued to their instruments, really smeared and congested all over the place, mids are sometimes even a single blob of sound, especially for electric guitar rock music. Worse than a KZ ATE to be honest, which is kind of unbelievable. I always measured the same amount of bass and it continues down to 6 Hz linear. However somewhere along the deep rumbling got lost and the bass texture too. I exchanged drivers too for the ones of the other channel, exact same graph and sound.


----------



## Xymordos

kkugel said:


> Here's the best FR we achieved without EST Dhruv is talking about, it sounds like ass and as if singers are glued to their instruments, really smeared and congested all over the place, mids are sometimes even a single blob of sound, especially for electric guitar rock music. Worse than a KZ ATE to be honest, which is kind of unbelievable. I always measured the same amount of bass and it continues down to 6 Hz linear. However somewhere along the deep rumbling got lost and the bass texture too. I exchanged drivers too for the ones of the other channel, exact same graph and sound.



What's the CSD like?


----------



## kkugel

Xymordos said:


> What's the CSD like?


CSD?


----------



## Xymordos

kkugel said:


> CSD?



I mean the waterfall graph


----------



## dhruvmeena96

kkugel said:


> CSD?


Decay graph


----------



## Wgibson

How are you physically measuring? In the shell with tack to seal the bore?

I breadboard stuff and use a temporary 3 bore nozzle with tubes, FR changes a bit when I put it in a shell, and resistance of the jumper wires have an effect, breadboard components vs small smd components, all has an effect, but I usually get close enough to the finished iem.

Example physical setup, obviously the alligator clips go to a breadboard.


Spoiler


----------



## Wgibson

P.s. - can someone briefly describe how to interpret a waterfall graph? What's good, what's bad, what can you glean from it, similar to a frequency response graph - can't tell the whole story, but what clues can it give you?


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (May 3, 2021)

Wgibson said:


> P.s. - can someone briefly describe how to interpret a waterfall graph? What's good, what's bad, what can you glean from it, similar to a frequency response graph - can't tell the whole story, but what clues can it give you?


X and Y axis are the frequency graph in CSD
The Z axis is time graph
It denotes in layman language, that for how long the note lingers.
It's measured in millisecond

You can technically tell, how the bass gonna decay and for how long and timbre characteristics
Or if, there is a hidden sibilance or splash if we are talking about decay sibilance and ringing of certain frequency.

It's easy to read once you start cross confirming your hearing with decay.

For example

If there is a subbass note of equal amount in dB but three type of decays

1. Instantly cutting off, not going enough in z axis.. this will denote a faster bass 

2. Smooth consistent decay falling down denotes the sound will gradually taper off , like the bass hits, retains as it weakens and dies.

3. Pulsing decay with dips and peaks. Doesn't really happen and is more simualtion and mixing thing but it's like note- cut - decy - cut


This is for one signal and not a music editing thing

I mean, when 100Hz note hits, it will linger for a while
And decay tells us how it's gonna linger around and how it adds body

@Xymordos can share example since I am not building a lot like old days hahaha


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Wgibson said:


> How are you physically measuring? In the shell with tack to seal the bore?
> 
> I breadboard stuff and use a temporary 3 bore nozzle with tubes, FR changes a bit when I put it in a shell, and resistance of the jumper wires have an effect, breadboard components vs small smd components, all has an effect, but I usually get close enough to the finished iem.
> 
> ...


He has iec711 and is using some high quality black clay which I don't know lmao


----------



## kkugel

Xymordos said:


> I mean the waterfall graph


Ok will upload asap


----------



## kkugel

Waterfall, decay and impulse. Impulse looks super weird so I uploaded it too.


----------



## seijisandrei

Hi guys, 

I'm looking for recommendations on the following:

1. Solder. What is the best specs of solder to use? And using that solder, what is the best temperature to work with it?

2. Solder Tip. What kind of solder tip is best? I don't know what I am using but when I reach around 350 degrees C, the tip softens and bends.

3. Any aliexpress store recommendation who sells good dynamic drivers and has low shipping rates?

4. Like number 3, but this time for 2-pin 3.5mm cables.

I've been working on my personal project for a while, and I concentrated on the main components - shell and drivers. But then I encountered problems from these, that's why this time I want to focus on the minor parts. I'm still confused about the differences of smd ceramic capacitor and resistor sizes but what I use as of now works so I won't focus on that yet. 

I still have a lot to learn damn. Even on my ear impression trimming and shell making. The current one I have hurts my ear after about 2 hrs of listening.

Thanks guys!


----------



## kkugel

seijisandrei said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I'm looking for recommendations on the following:
> 
> ...


Hey man shoot me a message, I can help you with the basics I learned so far


----------



## Xymordos

seijisandrei said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I'm looking for recommendations on the following:
> 
> ...



I like to use the Oyaide silver solder


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Xymordos said:


> I like to use the Oyaide silver solder


Rich people
Hahahahhahahahhahaha


I use standard solder


----------



## kkugel

Imo silver solder has no benefits, but a premium electronic solder is leagues ahead of cheap chinese solder, as it flows better, melts earlier and has beautiful shiny finish when cooled down. Silver finish probably has the same benefits, but I'd rather save the extra money


----------



## mattmatt

seijisandrei said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I'm looking for recommendations on the following:
> 
> ...


1. I use Good SE-0AG08 and Cardas Eutectic solder. Had a chance to use TRT Wonder Solder too.
2. I use the finest tip I can find for my TS100. 
3. N/A
4. 2-pin socket or 2-pin male plug? 2-pin socket, SoundLink has them. They also sell 2-pin cables.


----------



## TOBIJampar (May 3, 2021)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Use ED29689 and ED30761 savant built ment





dhruvmeena96 said:


> this thread
> 
> 
> BS6 has many iteration, which one in damper configuration.
> ...



Thanks for the suggestions 
I used the one with white and orange damper:
https://www.circuit-diagram.org/circuits/49f54ed9

I don't know if that would be the bassy configuration, but it sounded bassy to me.

I only made the BS6 so far, so I would rather try some more tested builds before I go tinkering on my own.

Are there schematics/instructions for the dual Ci + twfk and masm3 + wbfk? I tried finding some in the thread but wasn't successful so far.


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (May 3, 2021)

TOBIJampar said:


> Thanks for the suggestions
> I used the one with white and orange damper:
> https://www.circuit-diagram.org/circuits/49f54ed9
> 
> ...


Your answer in this post below
See the end part 
All credits to @piotrus-g




dhruvmeena96 said:


> First of all, burn in doesnt really change a lot on measurements like impulse and decay
> its a brain thing because if the modern speaker are changing their sound even after tight tolerance of 10%, then whats the use of those +/-10% accuracy
> 
> read carefully, Sony is okayish
> ...


----------



## DannyDiemelstadt

mattmatt said:


> Have you guys used wax guard or cerumen filters on your builds?
> 
> Does it only need a 2mm ID tube?


----------



## seijisandrei

mattmatt said:


> 1. I use Good SE-0AG08 and Cardas Eutectic solder. Had a chance to use TRT Wonder Solder too.
> 2. I use the finest tip I can find for my TS100.
> 3. N/A
> 4. 2-pin socket or 2-pin male plug? 2-pin socket, SoundLink has them. They also sell 2-pin cables.



Rich people! My stuff doesn't even have brands lol. What's a ts100? I'm wondering what kind of tip i should use, copper, lead free, etc.


----------



## seijisandrei

I really love this discussion thread. Everyone is so helpful to everyone. If only the world is like this. Sad.


----------



## seijisandrei

kkugel said:


> Hey man shoot me a message, I can help you with the basics I learned so far


Lezgoww! Will pm you


----------



## mattmatt

seijisandrei said:


> Rich people! My stuff doesn't even have brands lol. What's a ts100? I'm wondering what kind of tip i should use, copper, lead free, etc.


PS: not Good but *Goot*. TS100 is an open source soldering iron. You can look at lazada or shopee(seijisandrei and I are from the same country). Nah man, i'm not rich. Haha!


----------



## Luffytaro (May 5, 2021)

Hello all, I recieve IEC711 today, could you please share which software use to measure respond curve?


----------



## seijisandrei

mattmatt said:


> 1. I use Good SE-0AG08 and Cardas Eutectic solder. Had a chance to use TRT Wonder Solder too.
> 2. I use the finest tip I can find for my TS100.
> 3. N/A
> 4. 2-pin socket or 2-pin male plug? 2-pin socket, SoundLink has them. They also sell 2-pin cables.


I'm using qdc type of socket which I bought @ shopee cause soudlink doesn't have that type and other aliexpress vendors doesn't have cheap shipping. As for cables, soundlink's cables are so expensive @_@


----------



## Aldo40

Luffytaro said:


> Hello all, I recieve IEC711 today, could you please share which software use to measure respond curve?


ARTA or REW


----------



## kkugel

Luffytaro said:


> Hello all, I recieve IEC711 today, could you please share which software use to measure respond curve?


REW is free, easy to use. Also get an Apple Dongle + microphone splitter cable, it converts to digital accurately.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Luffytaro said:


> Hello all, I recieve IEC711 today, could you please share which software use to measure respond curve?


ARTA is more powerful and has better readable graphs(decay, impulse, step impulse, phase and Impedance) but I think as per what other people say REW is far more easy to use and set-up

So choose your poison


----------



## Xymordos

seijisandrei said:


> I'm using qdc type of socket which I bought @ shopee cause soudlink doesn't have that type and other aliexpress vendors doesn't have cheap shipping. As for cables, soundlink's cables are so expensive @_@


Those are my favorite!


----------



## seijisandrei

Xymordos said:


> Those are my favorite!


Yeah. I like them because the look cool. And this is the reason why in the past, I am asking how to wire multiple drivers with only a pair of wire connected to the pins because qdc pins have  the smallest pins of all female sockets, gosh.


----------



## kkugel

Anyone tried these yet for cheap ear impressions? I feel covering these with a layer of wax will give perfect smoothness


----------



## kkugel (May 8, 2021)

I've made an interesting discovery, which is that these: https://www.mouser.ch/ProductDetail/667-ERA-8AHD100V
sound a lot better than other resistors I have. No clue what is happening. I had the same ones in 20 ohm and some generic 5% tolerance 20 ohm on reel, and when I switched the other 20 ohm to generic 5% 20 ohm my bass sounded like crap (losing texture and visceralness) instantly. Anyone know why this might be?


----------



## seijisandrei

kkugel said:


> I've made an interesting discovery, which is that these: https://www.mouser.ch/ProductDetail/667-ERA-8AHD100V
> sound a lot better than other resistors I have. No clue what is happening. I had the same ones in 20 ohm and some generic 5% tolerance 20 ohm on reel, and when I switched the other 20 ohm to generic 5% 20 ohm my bass sounded like crap (losing texture and visceralness) instantly. Anyone know why this might be?



I have zero knowledge on these stuff. I bought a generic/unbranded ones from china. I believe these are 0603 and 1206 (https://shopee.ph/product/46314077/823268455 and https://shopee.ph/product/46314077/2397194153). But thanks to this comment I found out that mouser has an office here in our country hahaha maybe I could check this out next time.


----------



## kkugel

seijisandrei said:


> I have zero knowledge on these stuff. I bought a generic/unbranded ones from china. I believe these are 0603 and 1206 (https://shopee.ph/product/46314077/823268455 and https://shopee.ph/product/46314077/2397194153). But thanks to this comment I found out that mouser has an office here in our country hahaha maybe I could check this out next time.


Lmao did you actually solder 0603? You sir are a magician. I have 120% vision but can't solder 0603 because they are just too small.


----------



## Aldo40

kkugel said:


> Lmao did you actually solder 0603? You sir are a magician. I have 120% vision but can't solder 0603 because they are just too small.


no need to be a magician, I also solder 0603 and a magnifying lamp X5


----------



## seijisandrei

kkugel said:


> Lmao did you actually solder 0603? You sir are a magician. I have 120% vision but can't solder 0603 because they are just too small.





Aldo40 said:


> no need to be a magician, I also solder 0603 and a magnifying lamp X5



I have 20/20 vision the last I checked. It's not that hard. I don't use magnifying lamp, just a good light source. Light source helps a lot in a lot of cases. I do cinematography so lights are my best friend haha


----------



## Aldo40

I also have 20/20 but I find it easier and safer to do this with a magnifying glass. I don’t see myself soldering SWFK or E50DT0005 without magnifying glass for example


----------



## Max spl

Aldo40 said:


> I also have 20/20 but I find it easier and safer to do this with a magnifying glass. I don’t see myself soldering SWFK or E50DT0005 without magnifying glass for example


Hi .
Do the E50DT0005 sound better than the SWFK ?


----------



## Aldo40

Max spl said:


> Hi .
> Do the E50DT0005 sound better than the SWFK ?


I have not yet compared them directly, but it seems to me that there is more extension and the yield is better.


----------



## tomekk

Max spl said:


> Hi .
> Do the E50DT0005 sound better than the SWFK ?


E50 it's not a replacement of SWFK.  E50 first peak rise in 2khz, SWFK 7 and 10khz.


----------



## Max spl

tomekk said:


> E50 it's not a replacement of SWFK.  E50 first peak rise in 2khz, SWFK 7 and 10khz.


I was meaning as a tweeter with a capacitor ( from 10khz and up ) not as full range. I'm also very curious how will sound. They may outperform the swfk, isn't impossible. For me all sonion drivers sounded better than any knowles .I don’t have them yet, I still waiting my order.


----------



## TOBIJampar

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Your answer in this post below
> See the end part
> All credits to @piotrus-g


Than you for the link. Sadly, I think my ears are to small for this build 

So I'll probably go with the masm 3 pro. Is it still rab 32033 + GQ30783? And how would I add a wbfk to it (The GQ already has one if I recall correctly)?


----------



## tomekk

Max spl said:


> For me all sonion drivers sounded better than any knowles


It depends. One example: If straight out of the box the ED has a better stage and more air than the Sonion 2389 dark and flat I choose Knowles.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

TOBIJampar said:


> Than you for the link. Sadly, I think my ears are to small for this build
> 
> So I'll probably go with the masm 3 pro. Is it still rab 32033 + GQ30783? And how would I add a wbfk to it (The GQ already has one if I recall correctly)?


that GQ is damped and it effects the wbfk extension
you can add wbfk with same tube as RAB(or make them into one)- there is a zobelception circuit in this thread which adds wbfk in RAB zobel
this might give you far superior high frequency extension

but my suggestion is 

start with simple iem which teaches you basics rather than jumping to MASM or RAB-p(well, its a choice, if you only want to have good iem, then its fine... if you want to learn, its better we start making something new)

just tell me, how many drivers you want to use and i will write down the specs down here and what will it do


----------



## Max spl

tomekk said:


> It depends. One example: If straight out of the box the ED has a better stage and more air than the Sonion 2389 dark and flat I choose Knowles.


Yes it depends.  Some prefer knowles and some prefer sonion. 
The 2389D is my favorite driver.  Without this driver I will quit building iems .So much I like it. Of course knowles sound also amazing. Most popular combo is ci + ed . I prefer sonion.


----------



## dnspics

Hello, I am in the process of building my first CIEM. Making the housings is no longer a problem.

Now I have bought and installed Knowles GK31732 drivers.
I have installed a white damper on the tweeter after 7mm and nothing on the woofer. Both tubes are ID 1mm and approx. 13mm long.

The first listening test was very sobering, especially female voices sound bad, as if the singers were standing in a bath, quiet and somehow not clear. What could be the reason?

Unfortunately, I can't measure it yet because the 711 measuring microphone hasn't arrived yet.


----------



## kkugel

dnspics said:


> Hello, I am in the process of building my first CIEM. Making the housings is no longer a problem.
> 
> Now I have bought and installed Knowles GK31732 drivers.
> I have installed a white damper on the tweeter after 7mm and nothing on the woofer. Both tubes are ID 1mm and approx. 13mm long.
> ...


Just wait for the 711. I tried tuning before it arriving too, but it doesn't make sense and will just increase your headache! A 711 will show issues right away.


----------



## tomekk

dnspics said:


> Now I have bought and installed Knowles GK31732 drivers.
> I have installed a white damper on the tweeter after 7mm and nothing on the woofer. Both tubes are ID 1mm and approx. 13mm long.


Use single tube 2mm x 15 mm, no damper or gray/white damper in half tube. It should work fine out of the box.


----------



## Aldo40

dnspics said:


> Hello, I am in the process of building my first CIEM. Making the housings is no longer a problem.
> 
> Now I have bought and installed Knowles GK31732 drivers.
> I have installed a white damper on the tweeter after 7mm and nothing on the woofer. Both tubes are ID 1mm and approx. 13mm long.
> ...


hello, I didn’t have time to play with this config but it seems to me that the white damper is too weak on the 30017.
Use a green and on bass use an orange.
For tubes, try 1.5mm ID on 30017.
I think you’d gain a little more balance.

Aldo


----------



## Max spl

How about 4 x 38D1X per side ? Placed exactly like the photo below or is to crazy. It looks nice.  Lol.
4x 38D1Xs, 2x 2389D,  2x E50DT0005. 
Im thinking of building my last iem with BAs and that's it .
This gonna be out of this World. Hahahaha. 

Then im gonna build iems only with DDs ( 10mm shell ) and Over ear headphones. 

Anyone did this before  ?


----------



## dnspics

kkugel said:


> Just wait for the 711. I tried tuning before it arriving too, but it doesn't make sense and will just increase your headache! A 711 will show issues right away.


I think you are right!


----------



## dnspics

tomekk said:


> Use single tube 2mm x 15 mm, no damper or gray/white damper in half tube. It should work fine out of the box.


I will try it.


----------



## dnspics

Aldo40 said:


> hello, I didn’t have time to play with this config but it seems to me that the white damper is too weak on the 30017.
> Use a green and on bass use an orange.
> For tubes, try 1.5mm ID on 30017.
> I think you’d gain a little more balance.
> ...





Aldo40 said:


> hello, I didn’t have time to play with this config but it seems to me that the white damper is too weak on the 30017.
> Use a green and on bass use an orange.
> For tubes, try 1.5mm ID on 30017.
> I think you’d gain a little more balance.
> ...


Okay, it's an interesting idea. But one more small question. At which point would you recommend the dampers?


----------



## Aldo40

dnspics said:


> Okay, it's an interesting idea. But one more small question. At which point would you recommend the dampers?


it is according to the knowledge of certain references, but again, adjust to the ear, this is the best way, and then there is the measure also that can help, for you to experiment


----------



## dnspics

Aldo40 said:


> it is according to the knowledge of certain references, but again, adjust to the ear, this is the best way, and then there is the measure also that can help, for you to experiment


I may not find the right recipe for me ready-made, there will be a lot of testing and experimenting, but that's what I enjoy.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

dnspics said:


> Okay, it's an interesting idea. But one more small question. At which point would you recommend the dampers?


Try to avoid dampers in last octave tweeter if you are starting up
Otherwise tune with dampers
That's suggestion from my side


----------



## tomekk

Max spl said:


> How about 4 x 38D1X per side ? Placed exactly like the photo below or is to crazy. It looks nice. Lol.
> 4x 38D1Xs, 2x 2389D, 2x E50DT0005.
> Im thinking of building my last iem with BAs and that's it .
> This gonna be out of this World. Hahahaha.


I will try double 38DX1 x 1,5mmx7mm + 1mm x15mm (altogether) full range parallel, polarity setting needed , double E50D full range parallel 1,5mm x15mm, 2389D 2mmx15mm 0,47uF no damper.


----------



## kkugel

Anyone can tell me perfect 2389D setup? I'm tired of cleanliness issue with it. Just wanna do a test listen with perfect setup, can be missing bass, only mids for now for testing.


----------



## seijisandrei

Max spl said:


> Yes it depends.  Some prefer knowles and some prefer sonion.
> The 2389D is my favorite driver.  Without this driver I will quit building iems .So much I like it. Of course knowles sound also amazing. Most popular combo is ci + ed . I prefer sonion.


True. Sound is relative to the listener, that's why we are building our own! haha! But even though there may be individual driver advantages, once they are combined, we still need to tune them so there is no really best driver nor best iem -  well for me the best iem is my own diy iem hahaha!


----------



## seijisandrei

Now for my second recommendation question:

What specific type of capacitors/resistors are best for making iems? I only know sizes, but more specific than those, I don't have any idea. :/


----------



## Max spl

tomekk said:


> I will try double 38DX1 x 1,5mmx7mm + 1mm x15mm (altogether) full range parallel, polarity setting needed , double E50D full range parallel 1,5mm x15mm, 2389D 2mmx15mm 0,47uF no damper.



You mean 2389D full range  ?  And E50DT0005  with 0,47 uf ?
Take into consideration the power sharing and impedance.

2x 38D1X all parallel = 6,25 ohms if you add more drivers parallel the impedance will fall lower than 3 ohms = no good bass and will play not loud at all at low frequencies.

2x 38D1X -  parallel and then series  = 25 ohms  , you know what I mean,
then do the 2389D 25 ohms with 1 x 20 ohms resistor + 1 ohm resistor , you know what I mean.
parallel  connection the 38D1X + 2389D.  this will make a total 12,5 ohms .

Then 0,82  uf or lower for the 2x both parallel parallel E50DT0005 s .

About tube lengths I'll go like always with the longest possible tubes "1mm"  for the bass drivers , same length tubes for mids and highs,  1x 1.5 mm and 2mm for highs  both mid and high drivers close to the nozzle.  Red damper for the 2389D And thats it .
Any connection parallel - series to the same impedance drivers the power sharing will be equal.

I'll do something similar to this If I can't fit 4x 38D1Xs , 2x 2389D and 2x E50DT0005 .

Im not gonna add cap parallel to the bass driver and things who doesn't work,  im gonna do it it simple with taking into consideration power sharing and impedance and it will sound amazing.

If you start building and you make it sound good with your own way let me know please.
We have the same drivers


----------



## Max spl

seijisandrei said:


> Now for my second recommendation question:
> 
> What specific type of capacitors/resistors are best for making iems? I only know sizes, but more specific than those, I don't have any idea. :/


Try to find the lowest tolerance possible x7r ceramic capacitors .i use Kemet and murata. 
NpO caps exist only in extreme low values. 

Resistors the Same , the lowest tolerance possible, I use thin film resistors from Viking 0,1 % tolerance. 
Idk why exactly I like so much this specific resistor but I buy only from Viking. 

I can't hear any difference between caps and resistors from top companies. 
I personally try to find the lowest tolerance possible . Voltage is also not so important . What Voltage for what.  Lol


----------



## Xymordos

I used a dual 29689 in a setup and all I did was use a 3.3uf or 4.7uf first order high pass with a 10-20ohm resistor following it.


----------



## seijisandrei

Max spl said:


> Try to find the lowest tolerance possible x7r ceramic capacitors .i use Kemet and murata.
> NpO caps exist only in extreme low values.
> 
> Resistors the Same , the lowest tolerance possible, I use thin film resistors from Viking 0,1 % tolerance.
> ...


Thanks a lot good sir!


----------



## Max spl

seijisandrei said:


> Thanks a lot good sir!


You welcome good sir .! 🙏


----------



## Wgibson

I don't worry about cap tolerances, some variation can be useful actually, just get enough that you can match them. I did notice the value changes after soldering to smd caps, so watch out for that.


----------



## Max spl

Wgibson said:


> I don't worry about cap tolerances, some variation can be useful actually, just get enough that you can match them. I did notice the value changes after soldering to smd caps, so watch out for that.


In the most cases the capacitance is lower.  So lower tolerance the best


----------



## Wgibson

Max spl said:


> In the most cases the capacitance is lower.  So lower tolerance the best



Sure, but it depends what value you really want. When I do breadboard stuff I put a few smaller caps in parallel and try to optimize the frequency response curve before deciding what nominal value cap (or combination of caps) I end up using. If you use 0805 or smaller, stacking 2 or 3 in parallel isn't a big issue for space inside the shell. So a 20% tolerance (agree it is usually -20%) on 22uf is no big deal if you can just add a 4.7uf to it bring it back up.

My experience with 20% 100uf 0805 caps is they averaged 70-75uf, but after soldering to them it was 85 with less variation than before soldering.


----------



## Wgibson

Anyone used the knowles 33518? Seems almost identical to the 30095?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Wgibson said:


> Anyone used the knowles 33518? Seems almost identical to the 30095?


its a wbfk30095 not made to hearing aids standard
you can use it, no issue...
also, the difference is very negligible also


----------



## TOBIJampar

dhruvmeena96 said:


> that GQ is damped and it effects the wbfk extension
> you can add wbfk with same tube as RAB(or make them into one)- there is a zobelception circuit in this thread which adds wbfk in RAB zobel
> this might give you far superior high frequency extension
> 
> ...


Thanks for the tips. My primary goal is to have nice inears for listening to music.

Building my own and understanding more sounds nice as well, but the thought of tuning and figuring out if something doesn't sound well is kind of scary.

For this I would probably need an iec711 (and a variety of acoustic dampers), right?

I don't know how many drivers would be necessary... I would like to have a non fatiguing sound with decent Bass and don't really want to spend over 100$ on the drivers. As said, I was quite happy with the BS6 + Zobel.


----------



## dnspics

Hi, does anyone have any ideas where to buy a pair of Bellsing 10013?
SoundLink no longer has a single driver from Bellsing and I can't find anything else from the company.


----------



## Wgibson

dnspics said:


> Hi, does anyone have any ideas where to buy a pair of Bellsing 10013?
> SoundLink no longer has a single driver from Bellsing and I can't find anything else from the company.



Colson micro might have those still. If you get on taobao (I'm in the US so I use superbuy to purchase) you can find bellsing stuff usually searching for "domestic moving iron". "Double sound" also seems to be another name for bellsing. Searching is tricky, Google images and site:taobao.com seems to work pretty well. There are 29689, 30095, raf/rab equivalents, and others if you can find them.


----------



## Theodoric Paddlefoot

dnspics said:


> Hi, does anyone have any ideas where to buy a pair of Bellsing 10013?
> SoundLink no longer has a single driver from Bellsing and I can't find anything else from the company.


Hey there,
I think Bellsing renamed the 10013 to 90013. I was searching for the 10013 a month back and found the 90013 in their new (?) product lineup called Bellsing Hornet Series. If you go to the product page http://www.bellsing.com/en/show-325-304-1.html and click the spec sheet, then in the product sheet it says SPR283C10013. I'm pretty new to the world of custom IEMs and may be wrong so take this with a grain of salt. 
Sadly a quick search on Taobao from my side wasn't successful, so good luck on your search!

*Since this is my first post in this thread I want to thank all of you contributors for this amazing source of knowledge! *

I've built my first IEM (og MASM, thanks @dhruvmeena96) about a month back and my IEC711 should arrive this week if I'm lucky. So soon enough I'll be able to really dive into this new hobby.
For my next project I want a little more bass and then just an overall good performance which lead me to a combination of the Sonion 38D1XJ007Mi/8a as a bass driver and then the classic and well performing Knowles TWFK-30017. 
So my idea was using 1x 38D1 and 2x TWFK and be done with it until the Sonion 2389D popped up here and there again in this thread and now I'm not so sure anymore. 
Would a combination of 1x 38D1, 1x TWFK and 1x 2389D make sense?


----------



## kkugel

Theodoric Paddlefoot said:


> Hey there,
> I think Bellsing renamed the 10013 to 90013. I was searching for the 10013 a month back and found the 90013 in their new (?) product lineup called Bellsing Hornet Series. If you go to the product page http://www.bellsing.com/en/show-325-304-1.html and click the spec sheet, then in the product sheet it says SPR283C10013. I'm pretty new to the world of custom IEMs and may be wrong so take this with a grain of salt.
> Sadly a quick search on Taobao from my side wasn't successful, so good luck on your search!
> 
> ...


38D1X is amazing, good choice. For the 2389D I can't say, as I have not finished tuning my build.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

kkugel said:


> 38D1X is amazing, good choice. For the 2389D I can't say, as I have not finished tuning my build.





Theodoric Paddlefoot said:


> Hey there,
> I think Bellsing renamed the 10013 to 90013. I was searching for the 10013 a month back and found the 90013 in their new (?) product lineup called Bellsing Hornet Series. If you go to the product page http://www.bellsing.com/en/show-325-304-1.html and click the spec sheet, then in the product sheet it says SPR283C10013. I'm pretty new to the world of custom IEMs and may be wrong so take this with a grain of salt.
> Sadly a quick search on Taobao from my side wasn't successful, so good luck on your search!
> 
> ...



2389D is not that great because those two same driver in that nozzle has cancellation resonance at 6k.. I mean, it has rougher response compared to single 2389.

How did you like the MASM by the way?
Also, it wasn't tuned by standards but by decombing the graphs of two driver, so they can fill up dips. And to experiment with different timbre of fullrange at the same time.

OG masm means MASM3 orignal, MASM3 pro or Final revision


----------



## Theodoric Paddlefoot

The resonance problem sounds bad and I don't know if I could find a workaround for it. So 2x TWFK + 38D1X then. I want to experiment with my next project, having the parts on a breadboard setup and measure and fiddle around until I understand most things. If it then also sounds good I'd be happy. 

I used this schematic for the MASM build







I like this build a lot. It definitely sounds different to anything I've heard so far in the IEM world. The intimacy of vocalists, the details of instruments and the overall spaciousness sound very exciting to me. However, this build really is special and I want to see what the measurements are once my 711 arrives.


----------



## TOBIJampar

Do you guys use potentiometers and variable capacitors for prototyping?
Would there be downsides to using them over getting multiple caps/res with different values?


----------



## ForceMajeure

TOBIJampar said:


> Do you guys use potentiometers and variable capacitors for prototyping?
> Would there be downsides to using them over getting multiple caps/res with different values?


Technically you could just to get around a value you might like, listen and get an idea, but it's not recommended. Because nailing an exact value is difficult and you'll have to measure the output with a dmm to be sure you are in the same ball park. So repeatability is complicated. It's too much work with too much uncertainty.


----------



## tomekk

TOBIJampar said:


> Do you guys use potentiometers and variable capacitors for prototyping?
> Would there be downsides to using them over getting multiple caps/res with different values?


Here is my tuning tip. I use extra small on/off DIP switch, with 2 soldered resistors or caps. You can listen ptototype and change values "on air" while listening. The possibilities for mixing elements are endless. Just simply recalculate and solder new capacitors and resistors. Changes are possible up and down, you just choose series or paralell.


----------



## TOBIJampar

tomekk said:


> Here is my tuning tip. I use extra small on/off DIP switch, with 2 soldered resistors or caps. You can listen ptototype and change values "on air" while listening. The possibilities for mixing elements are endless. Just simply recalculate and solder new capacitors and resistors. Changes are possible up and down, you just choose series or paralell.


Are you able to have them I your ear, while pressing the switches? This looks nice. You could even incorporate dip switches into the shell, to be able to change the characteristics of the finished build (by switching Zobel for example).


ForceMajeure said:


> Technically you could just to get around a value you might like, listen and get an idea, but it's not recommended. Because nailing an exact value is difficult and you'll have to measure the output with a dmm to be sure you are in the same ball park. So repeatability is complicated. It's too much work with too much uncertainty.


Don't I need to measure the components anyways, to get pairs with similar values due to tolerances? Maybe I'll just throw some in in my next order and see how it will go.


----------



## Wgibson (May 18, 2021)

@TOBIJampar  variable capacitors don't really exist in usable ranges. Old school air variable capacitors maybe, but either real expensive or cheap with no specs listed. (Edit: they are also physically very large.)

Variable resistors / potentiometers - absolutely. I like the MDFLY (available in amazon) 100 ohm multi turn 3296. Plug right into a breadboard, easily repeatable 0.1ohm precision, nice little brass knob, low cost.

Get 4-6+ (shipping is more than the components, so some cost saving there.) You can pre-set to standard values (or combinations of standard values) and if you get frustrated with something you can blindly twist the knob until you like the frequency response, then see what R value ended up working.


----------



## seijisandrei

Any aliexpress link for 711?


----------



## Max spl

seijisandrei said:


> Any aliexpress link for 711?


If u want Im selling my 711 with everything u need , cables , sound card, impedance box ,  accessories etc.  it is in perfect condition. 
After this build I'm working right now I will not build any other iem . So I u want pm me .


----------



## TOBIJampar

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Just tell me, how many drivers you want to use and i will write down the specs down here and what will it do


I'd like to get my feet wet with trying something on my own. Are you still up for helping choose a configuration?

I guess the go to would be a 2 driver build with woofer and full range. 
Although I've been looking at the 38D1XJ which seems like a nice choice for a woofer, so maybe 3 drivers (or should a tweeter be included as well?).

Is there any benefit to using more drivers, after a decent frequency curve and impedance has been reached?


----------



## kkugel

Max spl said:


> If u want Im selling my 711 with everything u need , cables , sound card, impedance box ,  accessories etc.  it is in perfect condition.
> After this build I'm working right now I will not build any other iem . So I u want pm me .


I'm interested in the impedance box if you'd be up for selling separately


----------



## seijisandrei

kkugel said:


> I'm interested in the impedance box if you'd be up for selling separately



T_T I don't have a lot of cash right now


----------



## Wgibson

Impedance jig is pretty simple to make, just need connectors and a 100 ohm resistor. And some unsolicited advice, if you can't make an impedance jig, you will probably have some trouble with the iem circuits.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

TOBIJampar said:


> I'd like to get my feet wet with trying something on my own. Are you still up for helping choose a configuration?
> 
> I guess the go to would be a 2 driver build with woofer and full range.
> Although I've been looking at the 38D1XJ which seems like a nice choice for a woofer, so maybe 3 drivers (or should a tweeter be included as well?).
> ...


If you use 38D1XJ
Isnt that two driver itself for bass...

Try Noble savant build on forum....

30761 and 29689


----------



## kkugel

Wgibson said:


> Impedance jig is pretty simple to make, just need connectors and a 100 ohm resistor. And some unsolicited advice, if you can't make an impedance jig, you will probably have some trouble with the iem circuits.


I know, I just don't want to order connectors and 100 ohm of sufficient precision haha


----------



## Aldo40

I have a V3 dats and it’s a very nice box, the software that goes with the dats and plug and play, there’s nothing to do or almost nothing to do, just read the instructions to calibrate the box and then just a button clicked to measure the impedances.

So yes it is an expensive can, it is valid for those who do a lot of measurements, for those who do very may I better build his box.


----------



## saldsald

Hi all, new to this thread. Instead of building IEMs I have been modding IEMs lately. I also have the 711 coupler and I would much appreciate if you good folks can help me with rhe following questions:

1. Is there any IEM shells you can recommend for custom built projects?
2. What is the impedance box for?
3. Do you guys build hybrid IEMs? 
4. I want to extract the dynamic drivers from an IEM. Is it the best just to heat the IEM to soften the glue?

Thanks!


----------



## mattmatt

saldsald said:


> Hi all, new to this thread. Instead of building IEMs I have been modding IEMs lately. I also have the 711 coupler and I would much appreciate if you good folks can help me with rhe following questions:
> 
> 1. Is there any IEM shells you can recommend for custom built projects?
> 2. What is the impedance box for?
> ...


1. I started with a KZ ZST shell back then. Modified some dimension and created a mold for it.  It's shape and size makes it really easy to shove in drivers. 
2. Impedance box is used for measuring the impedance of your set throughout the frequency range. 
3. BA and EST, yes. Haven't gotten around dynamics since the cons outweighs the pros for me personally.
4. I'd probably go with drops of acetone around the perimeter of the driver. By drops, I literally mean drops, 1-3 drops I guess. There's a tendency to warp the diaphragm when you use heat.


----------



## saldsald

mattmatt said:


> 1. I started with a KZ ZST shell back then. Modified some dimension and created a mold for it.  It's shape and size makes it really easy to shove in drivers.
> 2. Impedance box is used for measuring the impedance of your set throughout the frequency range.
> 3. BA and EST, yes. Haven't gotten around dynamics since the cons outweighs the pros for me personally.
> 4. I'd probably go with drops of acetone around the perimeter of the driver. By drops, I literally mean drops, 1-3 drops I guess. There's a tendency to warp the diaphragm when you use heat.


Thanks for the information!
I found a really cheap impedance box on AliEx I wonder if it is ok?
https://a.aliexpress.com/_mOIG9b
I also have the feeling it would be rather hard to modify or build a hybrid set with DD. What are the cons from your experience?
I tried using a hairdryer and it actually worked, not too hot I could still hold the heated driver with my fingers. Acetone will actually melt the plastic, won't it?
Since you mentioned using the ZST as a mold, I think you may check out the CCA CSN. It is really spacious and quite fun to mod.


----------



## mattmatt

saldsald said:


> Thanks for the information!
> I found a really cheap impedance box on AliEx I wonder if it is ok?
> https://a.aliexpress.com/_mOIG9b
> I also have the feeling it would be rather hard to modify or build a hybrid set with DD. What are the cons from your experience?
> ...


I can't open the link. 

Good for you then. I always had a bad time with heat and DD hahaha. Not really, I think some plastics can be dissolved by Acetone but not all. If it does, then it will be easier to pry off the driver, won't it? 

I don't use other shells anymore, I abandoned the ZST mold years ago. I now create my own shells and print them out or do the traditional pour method.


----------



## JEHL

Another noob question. Does something like Elegoo Mars series work for printing housings?


----------



## kkugel

JEHL said:


> Another noob question. Does something like Elegoo Mars series work for printing housings?


Get Anycubic Photon Mono, cheaper and works perfect



saldsald said:


> Thanks for the information!
> I found a really cheap impedance box on AliEx I wonder if it is ok?
> https://a.aliexpress.com/_mOIG9b
> I also have the feeling it would be rather hard to modify or build a hybrid set with DD. What are the cons from your experience?
> ...


Dude why don't you make a planar hybrid? Like DD tuning is hard, I would put that effort in tuning a planar 10mm driver, tunes the same way


----------



## saldsald

mattmatt said:


> I can't open the link.
> 
> Good for you then. I always had a bad time with heat and DD hahaha. Not really, I think some plastics can be dissolved by Acetone but not all. If it does, then it will be easier to pry off the driver, won't it?
> 
> I don't use other shells anymore, I abandoned the ZST mold years ago. I now create my own shells and print them out or do the traditional pour method.


Try this link
https://a.aliexpress.com/_mOG3KMV

Casue sometimes I want to keep the shells and reuse on other projects. Guess I should experiment with acetone.

Haha, technology advancement it is. I don't have a resin 3d printer yet and can't do this myself.



kkugel said:


> Dude why don't you make a planar hybrid? Like DD tuning is hard, I would put that effort in tuning a planar 10mm driver, tunes the same way


I am not actually a fan of planar driver. I had the Tri i3 and the **** MT100 Pro and I think I prefer DDs and BAs.


----------



## HugoFi

Hi everyone,

Working on plans to build my first custom IEM, the plans for the shell are all set and I have some ideas for good and relatively easy internals. But I would love to hear the opinions around here for a relatively easy setup with good detail and a relatively neutral soundstage (quite sensitive to bass and high frequencies). As I said would appreciate all recommendations! Looking forward to building and showing them off. 

Cheers,
Hugo


----------



## eunice

HugoFi said:


> here for a relatively easy setup with good detail and a relatively neutral soundstage (quite sensitive to bass and high frequencies).


I'ld suggest the Finale2, it's an easy build with outstanding detail. It's a bit light on the bass for me, but it matches your description very well.

Diagram: https://crcit.net/c/7d75c8a5

See here for a comparison of a few I built:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/home-made-iems.430688/page-627#post-15023250


----------



## HugoFi

eunice said:


> I'ld suggest the Finale2, it's an easy build with outstanding detail. It's a bit light on the bass for me, but it matches your description very well.
> 
> Diagram: https://crcit.net/c/7d75c8a5
> 
> ...


Thank you very much; these are some A-grade instructions. Definitely will give it a try to build something like this


----------



## Max spl

the E50DT0005 is now in stock on Aliexpress from soundlink Because of me.


----------



## kkugel

Max spl said:


> the E50DT0005 is now in stock on Aliexpress from soundlink Because of me.


And me lol, just ordered


----------



## Max spl

@kkugel btw u can add the E50DT0005 to your estat build.  That's you wanna do ? 
It could be an amazing build.


----------



## kkugel

Max spl said:


> @kkugel btw u can add the E50DT0005 to your estat build.  That's you wanna do ?
> It could be an amazing build.


I'll use it to experiment


----------



## tomekk

E25 will be nice too. Or better


----------



## saldsald

eunice said:


> I'ld suggest the Finale2, it's an easy build with outstanding detail. It's a bit light on the bass for me, but it matches your description very well.
> 
> Diagram: https://crcit.net/c/7d75c8a5
> 
> ...


Hi, I would like to start with the BS6, but the 10013 is hardly available. Can I combine two Bellsing 30017s and a Knowles 30008 (Bellsing DTEC is hard to get...)?


----------



## JEHL

Anyway, has anyone seen the KB EAR Neon yet? Seems like an attempt at making a more affordable ER4 priced at $50. And reviews make it seem like it's very close to the ER4SR if you don't mind the deep insertion. 

Makes me wonder how hard'll be to one up what I can only assume is a deceptively well implemented ED-29689 at $50.


----------



## AxelCloris

We've removed a number of posts and conversation that did not meet our community guidelines from the thread. Thank you to everyone who refrained from taking the thread further off-topic. We greatly appreciate it.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

JEHL said:


> Anyway, has anyone seen the KB EAR Neon yet? Seems like an attempt at making a more affordable ER4 priced at $50. And reviews make it seem like it's very close to the ER4SR if you don't mind the deep insertion.
> 
> Makes me wonder how hard'll be to one up what I can only assume is a deceptively well implemented ED-29689 at $50.


It's actually not ER4 as Fyre did a response, looks like, they added less resistance to ED and that's why uppermid didn't rise as ety did




ER4 is 20ohm standard with green damper at end of 8mm tube

KB ear tube seems to shorter than that and the series resistance also seems to look smaller

This is the old classic ER4 design and it has nothing to do with ER4SR and XR


----------



## JEHL

dhruvmeena96 said:


> It's actually not ER4 as Fyre did a response, looks like, they added less resistance to ED and that's why uppermid didn't rise as ety did
> 
> ER4 is 20ohm standard with green damper at end of 8mm tube
> 
> ...


Doesn't seem to stop owners of both and or an ER3 from making the comparison however.

But I think most importantly. Would this qualify as a good implementation of the ED-29689 in a vacuum? Can it be one upped with a $50 budget at whatever the Neon was going for?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

JEHL said:


> Doesn't seem to stop owners of both and or an ER3 from making the comparison however.
> 
> But I think most importantly. Would this qualify as a good implementation of the ED-29689 in a vacuum? Can it be one upped with a $50 budget at whatever the Neon was going for?


first of all, no gear is tested in vacuum
second
Since you are not an OG member(old generation), you dont know etymotic significance 
it was never sound quality or specs or anything

1. whenever you buy an ER4, you get a document confirming that all the drivers are hand-matched to zero error. They get best lot of ED drivers(tightest tolerance) from knowles and then hand match it and tune and then again hand match your Left and Right pair

2. That IEM defined modern day Neutrality(the Diffuse feild)

Now, lemme answer your question
Any body can up that. Its own cheaper Sibling ER2XR ups it, which doest follow that strict QC.
the Thing is, do you expect 50$ iem to up it in any way

i posted KB ear graph from a friend which shows far more inconsistency
also, you can measure any TOTL iem, and you will still not find the left and right consistency, and theoretical neutral response of ER4.

Also, ER4(with different name, was released in 1989 and with ER4 name in 1991... got refreshed in 2003 and recently into ER4SR and XR)
see the heritage


----------



## JEHL (Jun 7, 2021)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> first of all, no gear is tested in vacuum
> second
> Since you are not an OG member(old generation), you dont know etymotic significance
> it was never sound quality or specs or anything
> ...


I... Wonder if everything I said is pointless in the end and apologies mainly for not cutting to the chase yet.

Big brother' right eardrum got ruptured somewhere around 5 years ago. It seems that it only partially healed since.

The apparent consequences of this is that his hearing appears normal... Until he uses virtually any kind of headgear for more than 30 minutes inflicts pain to his right ear. Forcing him to take the left earbud off.

This happens with apparently all kinds of headgear we have currebtly available. But this appears to not happen at all with loudspeakers.

What we never tried however because none of us own anything like it yet is. Give my brother a BA IEM. I can only wonder if it's worth the try.

But another tricky part is that he's well... Not an audiophile. He doesn't understand any kind of audio jargon. For all I know he may not care either.

So the only real competition in this context is some free Huawei earbuds. And I guess that's all I need to match.

I read a review of a hybrid 1DD, 1BA IEM mentioning a similar accident that resulted in a damaged eardrum that also only partially healed. So pain would eventually develop on most of his headgear. He isolated that he had a problem with DD treble. So he got a CVJ CSA if Im not mistaken and everything has been back to normal for him since.

Not saying a BA will work since that'd be anecdotal fallacy if I did. But I wonder if it's worth the try.

Edit: and yes this probably means I'm using my brother as a scapegoat to make an IEM.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

JEHL said:


> I... Wonder if everything I said is pointless in the end and apologies mainly for not cutting to the chase yet.
> 
> Big brother' right eardrum got ruptured somewhere around 5 years ago. It seems that it only partially healed since.
> 
> ...


why did ear damage happen, 
first your brother blast music(ask him seriously, if he used to do this... all of the peep, who has this problem, go max volume brrr full power)
second
any hybrid, which is not made with leak vent in mind or acoustic leak too restrictive, can cause ear drum to get acoustically loaded in pistonic motion
speaker pushing and pulling eardrum, because DD can do that, very very hard
which fatigue and ruptures eardrum

for his problem, i will suggest etymotic like iem but with 200ohms in mind, so he cannot go very loud


----------



## eunice

saldsald said:


> Hi, I would like to start with the BS6, but the 10013 is hardly available. Can I combine two Bellsing 30017s and a Knowles 30008 (Bellsing DTEC is hard to get...)?


I am not sure, it could work.
The BS6 has a small crossover circuit you'ld have to rebuild. I reverse engineered one and posted the details here: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/home-made-iems.430688/post-15008852

If Knowles DTEC has a similar impedance curve as the Bellsing DTEC this might work.

But this is no longer a simple/beginner build. Maybe try to do a Finale 2 instead?


----------



## saldsald

eunice said:


> I am not sure, it could work.
> The BS6 has a small crossover circuit you'ld have to rebuild. I reverse engineered one and posted the details here: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/home-made-iems.430688/post-15008852
> 
> If Knowles DTEC has a similar impedance curve as the Bellsing DTEC this might work.
> ...


Thanks very much for the reply! I will try to find the datasheets to compare the Knowled and Bellsing DTEC.

It is alright, I have been modding IEMs and the crossover circuit is simple enough. I am sure I can work it out with your post. Thanks!


----------



## eunice

saldsald said:


> Thanks very much for the reply! I will try to find the datasheets to compare the Knowled and Bellsing DTEC.
> 
> It is alright, I have been modding IEMs and the crossover circuit is simple enough. I am sure I can work it out with your post. Thanks!


If you can get it to work it would be a service to the community. The BS6+Z is a very good build and it would be too bad if it was not possible to replicate.


----------



## dnspics

Hi, I now have my measurement microphone with 711 and am trying to measure my IEMs with REW on my MacBook Pro.
Now I have the problem that the MacBook behaves strangely because the low frequencies are not displayed correctly. All IEMs look the same at the bottom. On my iPad the microphone works without any problem. Is there a setting on the Mac that I can't find for the 3.5mm TRRS connector?


----------



## eunice

dnspics said:


> Hi, I now have my measurement microphone with 711 and am trying to measure my IEMs with REW on my MacBook Pro.
> Now I have the problem that the MacBook behaves strangely because the low frequencies are not displayed correctly. All IEMs look the same at the bottom. On my iPad the microphone works without any problem. Is there a setting on the Mac that I can't find for the 3.5mm TRRS connector?


Are you sure this isn’t just a bad seal?


----------



## saldsald

eunice said:


> If you can get it to work it would be a service to the community. The BS6+Z is a very good build and it would be too bad if it was not possible to replicate.


I have looked at the FR of all Knowles DTEC and none of them look like the Bellsing 10013 (somehow they are called 90013?) 
http://www.bellsing.com/en/show-325-299-1.html


----------



## dnspics

eunice said:


> Are you sure this isn’t just a bad seal?


No bad seal!
If I connect the microphone directly to the iPad everything works.


----------



## eunice

saldsald said:


> I have looked at the FR of all Knowles DTEC and none of them look like the Bellsing 10013 (somehow they are called 90013?)
> http://www.bellsing.com/en/show-325-299-1.html


Yes, they look very different. Maybe the closer knowles driver is the hodtec or hodvtec. The Sonion 33AJ007i/9 also might be a replacement.


----------



## eunice

dnspics said:


> No bad seal!
> If I connect the microphone directly to the iPad everything works.


I have no idea why that would be the case. What type of mic/adc do you use?
I use an Umik-1 with its built in USB adc and I don’t have such problems.


----------



## dnspics

eunice said:


> I have no idea why that would be the case. What type of mic/adc do you use?
> I use an Umik-1 with its built in USB adc and I don’t have such problems.


An China 711 with 3,5 jack. I have ordert an external USB soundcard. 
I think I once read that the internal MacBook sound cards have pop protection on the microphone. But I can no longer find the article.


----------



## saldsald

eunice said:


> Yes, they look very different. Maybe the closer knowles driver is the hodtec or hodvtec. The Sonion 33AJ007i/9 also might be a replacement.


Do you or does anyone have any experience with other Bellsing drivers such as 70004, 90020, 90010? I should be able buy directly from Bellsing and these models seem interesting.


----------



## Aldo40

dnspics said:


> Hi, I now have my measurement microphone with 711 and am trying to measure my IEMs with REW on my MacBook Pro.
> Now I have the problem that the MacBook behaves strangely because the low frequencies are not displayed correctly. All IEMs look the same at the bottom. On my iPad the microphone works without any problem. Is there a setting on the Mac that I can't find for the 3.5mm TRRS connector?





it is as if the software was set to 200hz, check this


----------



## dnspics

Aldo40 said:


> it is as if the software was set to 200hz, check this


I think so.


----------



## kkugel

dnspics said:


> I think so.


No need for external soundcard, use apple 3.5mm dongle, super accurate


----------



## dnspics

kkugel said:


> No need for external soundcard, use apple 3.5mm dongle, super accurate


That's exactly what I ordered


----------



## dnspics

kkugel said:


> No need for external soundcard, use apple 3.5mm dongle, super accurate


Hello,
Thanks to everyone who helped me!
The problem is really the headphone input of my 2015 MacBookPro, which has a pop suppression, where I have not found how to turn it off, but I do not care now.

The solution is now the 3.5mm USB-C dongle from Apple which works great and is not expensive.

Now the experimenting can start 

Greetings Marcus


----------



## mattmatt

Glad things worked out! 


dnspics said:


> Hello,
> Thanks to everyone who helped me!
> The problem is really the headphone input of my 2015 MacBookPro, which has a pop suppression, where I have not found how to turn it off, but I do not care now.
> 
> ...


----------



## MTroy (Jun 17, 2021)

Wgibson said:


> @TOBIJampar  variable capacitors don't really exist in usable ranges. Old school air variable capacitors maybe, but either real expensive or cheap with no specs listed. (Edit: they are also physically very large.)
> 
> Variable resistors / potentiometers - absolutely. I like the MDFLY (available in amazon) 100 ohm multi turn 3296. Plug right into a breadboard, easily repeatable 0.1ohm precision, nice little brass knob, low cost.
> 
> Get 4-6+ (shipping is more than the components, so some cost saving there.) You can pre-set to standard values (or combinations of standard values) and if you get frustrated with something you can blindly twist the knob until you like the frequency response, then see what R value ended up working.



@TOBIJampar :
The only one variable capacitor i found has only a few pico range... used to for very accurate filters.
I'm using only variable resistor like the one @Wgibson say, but in smd format (the same which is used by many actual known brands). It provide the hability to change values during listening easily, but i do not recommand it, cause of psycho-acoustic (unless you left a short pause between changes).

In anyway, like said @ForceMajeure, it's more difficult to adjust at the right value.
However, i prefer it to the on/off DIP switch that's requiring less soldering action.
But, the most of time, didn't need them, just took better smd manufacturer with better range tolerance and accuracy.


----------



## Psypato92

Hello everyone, i prépare my firts Diem or ciem but it's posible create a ciem sounds like Elysium ( visión ears) or maybe  EarSonics velvet with convencional drivers (Knowless and sonion) the crossover it's very important in My opinión, and Need your ideas thanks


----------



## mattmatt

Psypato92 said:


> Hello everyone, i prépare my firts Diem or ciem but it's posible create a ciem sounds like Elysium ( visión ears) or maybe  EarSonics velvet with convencional drivers (Knowless and sonion) the crossover it's very important in My opinión, and Need your ideas thanks


Velvet is a dual 22955 and single 29689. I can't seem to remember the xover config. 😅

I think a single 20R thru series dual CI with red damper and a 2.2uf high pass for the 29689 with white/green damper would be ok sounding.


----------



## Aldo40

For Elysium it’s tricky because we don’t know the characteristics of the DD mids. Otherwise the bass is a 38d1x and EST65DA01.


----------



## Psypato92

mattmatt said:


> Velvet is a dual 22955 and single 29689. I can't seem to remember the xover config. 😅
> 
> I think a single 20R thru series dual CI with red damper and a 2.2uf high pass for the 29689 with white/green damper would be ok sounding.


Sorry i Say the Velvet and the configuration Is the problem (crossover) After that the switch i like How InEar propile 8


----------



## kkugel

Psypato92 said:


> Sorry i Say the Velvet and the configuration Is the problem (crossover) After that the switch i like How InEar propile 8


You mean you don't know how to make a crossover in general, or to make it like these IEMs?


----------



## Psypato92

kkugel said:


> You mean you don't know how to make a crossover in general, or to make it like these IEMs?


Make in this Iems? For exemple de CAN use the switch for pass yo basshead yo natural mode, thé crossover i Need resistores and capacitors 2.2uf, 3.2uf and play with the valors, dampers, and the tube right??


----------



## kkugel

Psypato92 said:


> Make in this Iems? For exemple de CAN use the switch for pass yo basshead yo natural mode, thé crossover i Need resistores and capacitors 2.2uf, 3.2uf and play with the valors, dampers, and the tube right??


Sorry man, don't understand what you are trying to say. I recommend trying deepl.com, that translates super accurate!


----------



## saldsald

I am trying to get all the parts to build the finale 2. May I ask which one is the ED 30761? I found on AliEx but it has no waveguide to connect to a tube.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Stretch tube around BA





saldsald said:


> I am trying to get all the parts to build the finale 2. May I ask which one is the ED 30761? I found on AliEx but it has no waveguide to connect to a tube.


----------



## saldsald (Jun 23, 2021)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Stretch tube around BA


Thanks, doesn't sound like an easy job lol.


----------



## mattmatt

saldsald said:


> Thanks, doesn't sound like an easy job lol.


Heat up the tube a bit before stretching to avoid tearing it up.


----------



## saldsald

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Stretch tube around BA


By the way, is there a build that involves the Sonion 38D1X? Cause I really want to try this driver. Thanks.


----------



## Wgibson (Jun 23, 2021)

Easy way to stretch tubes is to put a pair of tweezers inside, heat up the tube then insert a small rod (screwdriver) and push towards the fixed side of the tweezers, to add force that spreads the tips. Let cool, but it will still shrink slowly after that, so a few cycles of stretching is necessary.


----------



## Wgibson

Heat shrink tubing is also good for this,  find one that the un shrunk diameter fits on the body of the BA, 3:1 works best but 2:1 can also work, try to find thin wall if possible. First shrink a length of the tube separately (DO NOT heat the BA with the tube around it) and then UV glue or B7000 the tube to the BA body

This is 2x dual 32257 with tweezer expanded tube (1mm ID) and a 31736 with heat shrink tube pre shrunk and UV glued as described above (1.5 or 2mm ID after shrinking, sorry I don't recall exactly, just see what fits.)



Spoiler








Tubing is cheap, grab a lot of different options so you have stuff to work with.


----------



## saldsald

Wgibson said:


> Heat shrink tubing is also good for this,  find one that the un shrunk diameter fits on the body of the BA, 3:1 works best but 2:1 can also work, try to find thin wall if possible. First shrink a length of the tube separately (DO NOT heat the BA with the tube around it) and then UV glue or B7000 the tube to the BA body
> 
> This is 2x dual 32257 with tweezer expanded tube (1mm ID) and a 31736 with heat shrink tube pre shrunk and UV glued as described above (1.5 or 2mm ID after shrinking, sorry I don't recall exactly, just see what fits.)
> 
> ...


Thanks for the tips, yeah I bought some 1x2, 2x3, 1.3x2.3, 1.5x2.5. Hope these are enough.


----------



## HaBo

Is there a place to buy hollow universal shell ?


----------



## kkugel

HaBo said:


> Is there a place to buy hollow universal shell ?


Soundlink on Aliexpress has 3D printed ones


----------



## Wgibson

kkugel said:


> Soundlink on Aliexpress has 3D printed ones



Has anyone used those? They have a "raw" finish, and look like they need lacquer or resin before you could use them.


----------



## kkugel

Wgibson said:


> Has anyone used those? They have a "raw" finish, and look like they need lacquer or resin before you could use them.


Yes they need lack3. I think all shells need it, to be bio safe.


----------



## Wgibson

There are plastic universal shells on taobao, that's what I have been using. Some on aliexpress too.


----------



## HaBo

Links of taobao sellers ?


----------



## Wgibson

Shop108773068.toabao.com 

Not huge, but a good amount of room in those 9.9 yuan shells.


----------



## saldsald

This I call well-packaging!


----------



## dhruvmeena96

saldsald said:


> This I call well-packaging!


This is what i call overkill packaging


----------



## HugoFi

saldsald said:


> This I call well-packaging!


Hi,

Where did you manage to order Bellsing drivers? Did not manage to find a retailer yet, would love to know where you found them!

cheers,
Hugo


----------



## saldsald

HugoFi said:


> Hi,
> 
> Where did you manage to order Bellsing drivers? Did not manage to find a retailer yet, would love to know where you found them!
> 
> ...


Not from any retailer but Bellsing. I contacted them directly and asked them to sell me their receivers.


----------



## HugoFi

saldsald said:


> Not from any retailer but Bellsing. I contacted them directly and asked them to sell me their receivers.


Thank you very much, might do that myself


----------



## saldsald

Wgibson said:


> Easy way to stretch tubes is to put a pair of tweezers inside, heat up the tube then insert a small rod (screwdriver) and push towards the fixed side of the tweezers, to add force that spreads the tips. Let cool, but it will still shrink slowly after that, so a few cycles of stretching is necessary.


I just tried this but the tube just didn't stretch at all. What temperature is needed?


----------



## Wgibson

saldsald said:


> I just tried this but the tube just didn't stretch at all. What temperature is needed?



Cigarette lighter or small candle, hold the tube about 1" above and slightly to the side


----------



## saldsald

Wgibson said:


> Cigarette lighter or small candle, hold the tube about 1" above and slightly to the side


Oh lol, I used a hair dryer... Thanks!


----------



## Jerry-S

Theodoric Paddlefoot said:


> The resonance problem sounds bad and I don't know if I could find a workaround for it. So 2x TWFK + 38D1X then. I want to experiment with my next project, having the parts on a breadboard setup and measure and fiddle around until I understand most things. If it then also sounds good I'd be happy.
> 
> I used this schematic for the MASM build
> 
> ...


I also made the MASM (same build as pictured) and love it. I EQ a bass shelf at about 200hz and like that it beats many other iems ive demoed. 
One thing I dont know is what the Frequency response looks like on a graph and I really want to know. So I can use it as a frame of reference for future purchases. I dont have a measurement rig. Could you post your measurements?
Thanks in advance.


----------



## Theodoric Paddlefoot (Jul 1, 2021)

Jerry-S said:


> I also made the MASM (same build as pictured) and love it. I EQ a bass shelf at about 200hz and like that it beats many other iems ive demoed.
> One thing I dont know is what the Frequency response looks like on a graph and I really want to know. So I can use it as a frame of reference for future purchases. I dont have a measurement rig. Could you post your measurements?
> Thanks in advance.


Hey, this is what I get. Keep in mind that this was my first attempt at building an IEM and I had no Multimeter that could measure the SMD's at the time. So they can be a bit off. Ideally I should open the IEMs and create a perfectly matched set of Capacitor+Resistor but it sounds great so I don't bother.

--edit-- My measurement was wrong, it had no correct seal and therefore the bass was off. I've attached the correct measurement.
--edit-- Measurements were still off due to a cheap usb soundcard. Second FR is the correct one.


----------



## saldsald

saldsald said:


> Oh lol, I used a hair dryer... Thanks!


I guess the tubes I have (made in Germany somehow) are too stable and can withstand alot of heat without deformation. I need other tubes......


----------



## dhruvmeena96

MASM got too famous on thread lel
also
some asked about 38D1XJ 
thats a woofer
just add with any BA with volume matching and it will work
38D1XJ series internally with 4.7ohm series parallel Lpad(newbie bros, check Lpad circuit before making)
and add any uppermid driver, literally anything
make etymotic or use twfk
it will merge with any driver and will make a wide V shape sound(not narrow Chifi V shape but more like sony M9 like bass)
if bass is more than required amount, increase the series resistor on Lpad


----------



## Theodoric Paddlefoot

saldsald said:


> I guess the tubes I have (made in Germany somehow) are too stable and can withstand alot of heat without deformation. I need other tubes......





saldsald said:


> I guess the tubes I have (made in Germany somehow) are too stable and can withstand alot of heat without deformation. I need other tubes......


I've got tubes from SoundLink and use a cheap heat gun with with temperature regulation. 130°C-140°C works best for me, just put tweezers in the tube and rotate it ~5cm above the gun, and the force from the tweezers will stretch the tubes automatically. I was just doing that so I made a few photos. ^^


----------



## Theodoric Paddlefoot (Jul 1, 2021)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> MASM got too famous on thread lel
> also
> some asked about 38D1XJ
> thats a woofer
> ...


Hey there IEM Guru,
that's basically what I wanted to do for a longer time now and different things came up so that I couldn't finish it.
Your post was basically the necessary drive to start and so I did. I've finished the build an hour ago and oh boy does that thing have bass!
It's exactly the IEM I need, between your MASM and the Finale 2, for which the drivers are already ordered.

Originally I wanted to use 2x TWFK 30017 but I've killed one while soldering and so the project came to a halt until today.

1x TWFK 30017, 14mm tube, 680 Ohm damper half length
1x Sonion 38D1XJ, 19mm tube, 3300 Ohm damper half length, 4.7 Ohm s/p Lpad

--edit-- attached a corrected measurement from ARTA, leaving the faulty one there because a user already replied and made me investigate what was wrong with my measurements


----------



## kkugel

Theodoric Paddlefoot said:


> Hey there IEM Guru,
> that's basically what I wanted to do for a longer time now and different things came up so that I couldn't finish it.
> Your post was basically the necessary drive to start and so I did. I've finished the build an hour ago and oh boy does that thing have bass!
> It's exactly the IEM I need, between your MASM and the Finale 2, for which the drivers are already ordered.
> ...


You have some improper seal going on there for the measurement, 38D1X does not drop off that early usually


----------



## Theodoric Paddlefoot (Jul 1, 2021)

kkugel said:


> You have some improper seal going on there for the measurement, 38D1X does not drop off that early usually


You are right, I have a problem with my measurements in the bass region and I don't know why. I used a Tin T2 for reference, perfect seal, and also get the bass roll off.
I've tried ARTA and REW, both with calibrated soundcard and microphone to rule out a software problem.
I've checked all windows settings for enhancements and stuff and everything is fine.
Right now I have no idea what the problem might be, other than that my 711 could be faulty. 

--edit-- Sometimes it's the most obvious things that fly under your radar. It was my usb soundcard which somehow didn't want to measure low frequencies correctly. I bought it specifically for measuring but it was a cheap one so there's that. ^^


----------



## kkugel

Theodoric Paddlefoot said:


> You are right, I have a problem with my measurements in the bass region and I don't know why. I used a Tin T2 for reference, perfect seal, and also get the bass roll off.
> I've tried ARTA and REW, both with calibrated soundcard and microphone to rule out a software problem.
> I've checked all windows settings for enhancements and stuff and everything is fine.
> Right now I have no idea what the problem might be, other than that my 711 could be faulty.
> ...


Get the $10 Apple Dongle, it does that job perfectly. I had the same issue when using another dongle


----------



## kkugel

@Everyone

I know almost all in here shop drivers at Soundlink. Since I have some insight into chinese shipping methods, I wanted to suggest them to use YunExpress for all things and Yanwen Special Line for liquids. (Yun is faster but does not accept lacquer)

Those AliStandard shipping times are at over 3 weeks now, which is kind of insane. DHL is over $50 for a single driver.

YunExpress shipping will take 6-10 business days anywhere usually and costs like 4-8$ per parcel.

If you guys ask for it too, they might just be up for offering it! You can select it on the product page then usually.


----------



## saldsald

Theodoric Paddlefoot said:


> I've got tubes from SoundLink and use a cheap heat gun with with temperature regulation. 130°C-140°C works best for me, just put tweezers in the tube and rotate it ~5cm above the gun, and the force from the tweezers will stretch the tubes automatically. I was just doing that so I made a few photos. ^^


Thanks I will check out those tubes on Soundlink. That's what I did with a cigarette lighter but the tubes just didn't stretch at all, lol. I think I should get a heat gun then.


----------



## Theodoric Paddlefoot

Look what just arrived from Mouser. A mysterious box and it says attention on the side!
I really like the packaging and Mouser did a great job shipping my order within 48 hours from the US to Germany. Only the FED 30048's were in the box, the 30761 came in a standard plastic bag. Finale 2 here I come.
On the top right there are my new TWFK+38D1XJ bass cannons, I made them look similar to the lilac BL03's which I never bought but always wanted to.


----------



## Luffytaro

Hello all, just share my new one, the shell is quite good wity color spread natural but the face plate is quite fail, : ), really dificult to make a unique face plate.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Luffytaro said:


> Hello all, just share my new one, the shell is quite good wity color spread natural but the face plate is quite fail, : ), really dificult to make a unique face plate.


You can make a shell like that is in itself a great thing
I myself cannot do all that
Hehehe


Theodoric Paddlefoot said:


> Look what just arrived from Mouser. A mysterious box and it says attention on the side!
> I really like the packaging and Mouser did a great job shipping my order within 48 hours from the US to Germany. Only the FED 30048's were in the box, the 30761 came in a standard plastic bag. Finale 2 here I come.
> On the top right there are my new TWFK+38D1XJ bass cannons, I made them look similar to the lilac BL03's which I never bought but always wanted to.


That iem shell, did you make that
Nice


----------



## Theodoric Paddlefoot

Luffytaro said:


> Hello all, just share my new one, the shell is quite good wity color spread natural but the face plate is quite fail, : ), really dificult to make a unique face plate.


Hey there, I really like your shells. I also had problems to get a good finish on my faceplate and found a neat solution named foil flakes. At first I was struggling to apply them properly but had an idea that helped a lot. Apply something like isopropyl alcohol onto the shell and then apply the foil and then brush it to get a nice smooth flat finish. 
I found that easier than painting because I'm no artist. ^^
Here is a photo of my MASM3's, the black side of the foil turned out to be blue, which you can see on the right IEM. Depending on the incidence of light you can see it as a dark blue and it looks fantastic combined with black and gold. 



dhruvmeena96 said:


> That iem shell, did you make that
> Nice


The shells I use atm are the standard 3D printed ones from SoundLink. In the future I want to print them by myself with a 3D scan of my ears but for now they have to do.


----------



## dnspics

Is there a good way to electronically dampen the MASM series so that I can better use the volume control on my iBasso DX160? Currently I have the volume set to 7-10 everything else is too loud for me.


----------



## Wgibson

dnspics said:


> Is there a good way to electronically dampen the MASM series so that I can better use the volume control on my iBasso DX160? Currently I have the volume set to 7-10 everything else is too loud for me.



Maybe try an impedance adapter plug?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

dnspics said:


> Is there a good way to electronically dampen the MASM series so that I can better use the volume control on my iBasso DX160? Currently I have the volume set to 7-10 everything else is too loud for me.


Lpad it


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Its flat impedance
Any resistor you add wont change sound in anyway





dhruvmeena96 said:


> Lpad it


----------



## musmecca

saldsald said:


> I guess the tubes I have (made in Germany somehow) are too stable and can withstand alot of heat without deformation. I need other tubes......


I heat the tweezers under flame before I insert into the tube. The metal tweezers hold heat and allows me to stretch the opening fairly easily, even on very thick walled tubes.


----------



## dnspics

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Its flat impedance
> Any resistor you add wont change sound in anyway


Thanks for your tip with the Lpad. Do you have a recommendation for the resistor values?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

dnspics said:


> Thanks for your tip with the Lpad. Do you have a recommendation for the resistor values?


Just use 20ohm resistor in series
Best fix

Lpad will cause more issue in amp power delivery here


----------



## dnspics

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Just use 20ohm resistor in series
> Best fix
> 
> Lpad will cause more issue in amp power delivery here


you mean no LPAD after all?
only one 20Ohm in series!


----------



## Wgibson

Impedance adapters are just series resistors, so easy to try out


----------



## dhruvmeena96

dnspics said:


> you mean no LPAD after all?
> only one 20Ohm in series!


Yup


----------



## HaBo (Jul 6, 2021)

How to tune a full-range single BA driver ?


----------



## Jerry-S

Theodoric Paddlefoot said:


> Hey there, I really like your shells. I also had problems to get a good finish on my faceplate and found a neat solution named foil flakes. At first I was struggling to apply them properly but had an idea that helped a lot. Apply something like isopropyl alcohol onto the shell and then apply the foil and then brush it to get a nice smooth flat finish.
> I found that easier than painting because I'm no artist. ^^
> Here is a photo of my MASM3's, the black side of the foil turned out to be blue, which you can see on the right IEM. Depending on the incidence of light you can see it as a dark blue and it looks fantastic combined with black and gold.
> 
> ...


Looks great!
That combo of black with gold flakes is a great look. No wonder its used a lot. ( UM MEST, Softears RSV, Mangird Tea........)
What shell did you use for the mold?


----------



## Theodoric Paddlefoot

Jerry-S said:


> Looks great!
> That combo of black with gold flakes is a great look. No wonder its used a lot. ( UM MEST, Softears RSV, Mangird Tea........)
> What shell did you use for the mold?


Thanks! 
I'm not making my own shells yet. The shells are from SoundLink on Aliexpress.
Here my Finale 2 which I finished yesterday. These are my 3rd IEMs and the finish is still far from perfect but a lot better than my first try.


----------



## kkugel

Anyone interested in some 12mm planar drivers with good frequency response? I need 4, but they give a big quantity discount for 12 pcs. I saw planar drivers are usually 99$ on ali, my high quality source would be 23$ for one.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Theodoric Paddlefoot said:


> Thanks!
> I'm not making my own shells yet. The shells are from SoundLink on Aliexpress.
> Here my Finale 2 which I finished yesterday. These are my 3rd IEMs and the finish is still far from perfect but a lot better than my first try.


Graph it please if you hsing IEC711
I lost my old graphs


----------



## Theodoric Paddlefoot (Jul 6, 2021)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Graph it please if you hsing IEC711
> I lost my old graphs


Here you go

--edit-- I finally got my measurement rig working and updated the Finale 2 graph.


----------



## kkugel

Theodoric Paddlefoot said:


> Here you go


You have the Apple Dongle yet? Looks like soundcard bass dropoff still😄 Here it's available in every gas station actually


----------



## Theodoric Paddlefoot (Jul 6, 2021)

kkugel said:


> You have the Apple Dongle yet? Looks like soundcard bass dropoff still😄 Here it's available in every gas station actually


Yes I'm actually using the Apple dongle as output. I tried using a splitter to get it to also accept the microphone but that didn't work. Maybe it's the mic in from my usb soundcard?
But shouldn't the Finale 2 drop off slightly below 50Hz anyway?
And btw. if anyone is thinking of building a Finale 2 and is unsure yet: Do it. I'm amazed by that build and can't stop listening to music.


----------



## kkugel (Jul 6, 2021)

Theodoric Paddlefoot said:


> Yes I'm actually using the Apple dongle as output. I tried using a splitter to get it to also accept the microphone but that didn't work. Maybe it's the mic in from my usb soundcard?
> But shouldn't the Finale 2 drop off slightly below 50Hz anyway?


Oh yes that's it lol. You need to use the Apple dongle as mic input! The drop off happens in the input, not output. I can send you the splitter that works for me, maybe you can find the same product as on ali on amazon.


----------



## Theodoric Paddlefoot (Jul 8, 2021)

kkugel said:


> Oh yes that's it lol. You need to use the Apple dongle as mic input! The drop off happens in the input, not output. I can send you the splitter that works for me, maybe you can find the same product as on ali on amazon.


Oh yes please give me a link then. I'd be so happy when I can actually believe 100% what I'm measuring!

--edit-- I think I got it. Idk what went wrong the last time but this is with the Apple dongle as mic:
--edit2-- It was still wrong. ^^ I've attached the final measurement as 2nd picture.

Thanks a lot kkugel for pointing me in the right direction!


----------



## kkugel

Theodoric Paddlefoot said:


> Oh yes please give me a link then. I'd be so happy when I can actually believe 100% what I'm measuring!
> 
> --edit-- I think I got it. Idk what went wrong the last time but this is with the Apple dongle as mic:
> 
> Thanks a lot kkugel for pointing me in the right direction!


That looks correct! Sometimes you need to push plugs into these splitters with force. However, you might want to try crossing the bass lower, at 300. 500 is very high and will give you bloated sound


----------



## kkugel

Also really no one wants some planar drivers? I'll 3D print you guys shells, c'mon guys I don't wanna spend 100$ for 2 drivers hahaha


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Jul 6, 2021)

But my question is
Why is treble rolling of
@Theodoric Paddlefoot 

Finale 2 is good(now a very old design though)
Ferrofluid BA sound very different from normal BA's
And damperless, it should sound really good to anyone who tries it
The only thing is that it was made simple for DIY purposes so everyone can make it(ease of build had more priority compared fo Frequency response)


----------



## saldsald (Jul 7, 2021)

Theodoric Paddlefoot said:


> I've got tubes from SoundLink and use a cheap heat gun with with temperature regulation. 130°C-140°C works best for me, just put tweezers in the tube and rotate it ~5cm above the gun, and the force from the tweezers will stretch the tubes automatically. I was just doing that so I made a few photos. ^^


I have finally bought myself some large diameter heat shrink tubes and they should surely work. Thanks for the guide, I think I will also need a cheap heat gun as the lighter is leaving some nasty burnt fuel marks on the tube and a hairdryer doesn't work, lol.

Edit: actually a hairdryer is hot enough, using 1600W


----------



## Wgibson

Small candle if you need slow gentle heat over a long period of time, like the ones you put in a pumpkin for halloween


----------



## saldsald

Wgibson said:


> Small candle if you need slow gentle heat over a long period of time, like the ones you put in a pumpkin for halloween


Thanks I should try that as well, with a hairdryer the tube actually gets a little ununiform.


----------



## kkugel

I got an impedance box too now, how do I actually connect it? It has 3 3.5mm sockets and a switch


----------



## swtnate

First post but MAN, this has been an INVALUABLE resource.  Ohhhhh, the amount of learning and investment to learning this industry.  Im all in!  From lab equipment, to drivers, and beyond.  So, I thought Id pay a little bit of it back.  Theres been many posts about hydrocolloid.  One thing that I love about is how replaceable it is.  One thing I hate about it is how EXPENSIVE it can be.  6kg of Egger is over $200 and Krystalloid is a bit better but not as forgiving and the dreve lacks tinsel strength upon impression removal.  Ive gone through countless hours figuring this out and gave up no less than 5 times.  Until, I read the Krystalloid MSDS.  While this doesnt give the recipe, upon further reading on the effects Agar reacting with ethylene glycol, I had another starting point.  I finally recreated, in my opinion, an improved Krystalloid.  This is still reversable.  All the items can be purchased from Amazon or from a chemistry supply house.  One thing is imperative to have, and that is a reliable food/ gram scale.

this is the recipe for a 500g batch.
125g - propylene gycol
125g- ethylene glycol
15g - vegetable glycerine
5g - Agar Agar Powder (NOT THE FLAKES)
1g - Borax (not essential but seems to help with mold strength)
230g - filtered water

1) mix all the liquids together at room temperature.
2) add the Agar Agar.  Using a whisk, stir in the Agar to the mixture.  Let soak in solution for minimum of ten minutes.  I like to use a stand-up mixer during the entirety of the soak time. HOWEVER, BE CAREFUL!  ETHYLENE GLYCOL IS WHAT MAKES ANTI-FREEZE AND SHOULD NOT EVER BE INGESTED.  Clean-up well with dish soap and water. I wash everything 3 times. Lol.
3) pour solution into a small cooking pot.  Set the cooking temperature to LOW or 1.  Allow to come to temperature.  Stirring often.
4) increase cooking temperature to MEDIUM.  Monitor temperature very closely with an infrared thermometer.  Solution should NEVER come to a boil.  Continue stirring as often as possible.  The agar is not into solution YET.  The mixture should be very cloudy when you stir.
5) This process can take up to 20-30 minutes, if not longer.  Once you are able to stir the mixture and the cloudiness doesnt reappear then the agar has been absorbed into solution. Leave on stable heat (90-95°C) for an additional 15 minutes.
6. Pour i to separate container and allow to cool at room temperature.  You will notice that it will stay rather thinly viscous even at lower temperature.  Once it is at about room temperature, place into the refrigerator for one hour.  Then you are ready to GO!

FOR REHEATING:
1) Cut/ chop the solidfied agar into small squares.  The finer the chop the easier it will melt.  Place into a small glass bowl that is microwave safe.
2) heat in the microwave for 2 minutes at 10-20% power.  Monitor through the window during the melting process.
3) once complete, stirr the colloid slowly for 30 seconds to evenly dosperse the hotter and cooler liquids in the mixture.  Allow the rest a total of 90 seconds while stirring.  Repeat steps 2-3 until mixture is completely liquified and there are no lumps.
Optional: after the melting process is complete, I dont stir the solution.  My microwave has a “warm and hold” setting.  I press the warm and hold button and allow it to warm/ equalize for 5-10 minutes, depending on the amount of colloid.  Also, if you go TOO long a film/skin will form on the top of the colloid (kinda like queso). You can easily remove it with a large spoon.  
4) let cool to 115F and then slowly pour with the stream no wider than a pencil and the container as close to the investment form as possible.

this recipe is a little thinner than most (almost Dreve fotogel viscosity but WAY thinner than the nicefit). Small bubbles will NORMALLY escape no problem.  I use a chemistry plastic disposable pipette to remove large bubbles.


----------



## swtnate

I would also like to note, that I'm an American using the metric system.  Proof that anything is possible. lol.


----------



## swtnate

saldsald said:


> I have finally bought myself some large diameter heat shrink tubes and they should surely work. Thanks for the guide, I think I will also need a cheap heat gun as the lighter is leaving some nasty burnt fuel marks on the tube and a hairdryer doesn't work, lol.
> 
> Edit: actually a hairdryer is hot enough, using 1600W


for stretching tubes I use a thick walled #13 PVC tube, tubing expanders OR tweezers, and a standard blow drier on high heat blowing low air.  Soft PVC tubing is highly susceptible to over heating.  So be careful.  PRO TIP: after heating, continue hold the tubing in the same position while blowing cool or cold air to instantly set the tube in the expanded position.

If you're looking for heat shrink tubing, for instance to protect a PCB or toe wrap a driver, I use FEP heat shrink.  I has a much lower shrinking temp. (420F / 215C) that will don't over heat the drivers if they do come in contact with the heating element.  HOWEVER, its better to wrap your drivers in thin walled latex tubing or large diameter silicone tubing.  This will protect them a little and prevent the tapping sound on the faceplate when they get a little rattled.


----------



## swtnate

dhruvmeena96 said:


> But my question is
> Why is treble rolling of
> @Theodoric Paddlefoot
> 
> ...


you could have a not fully sealed connection between tubing and driver spout OR you might have not fully sealed junction between larger and smaller diameter tube junctions that could house your damper OR you might have an obstruction in the tube somewhere OR you could have small to seemingly negligible amount of adhesive that dripped down the tube wall and is causing a response shape to shift.  you could also have components not rated for the load you are putting on them. (ie 1/8watt rated capacitors)


----------



## swtnate

dnspics said:


> you mean no LPAD after all?
> only one 20Ohm in series!


Both a series resistor and an L-Pad will effectively lower the volume of the driver (attenuate).  However, an L-Pad will lower the output in a much flatter more uniform way.  So, yes and no.  It depends on the frequency response as to whether or not the series resistor will create a higher frequency peak.  If so, L-Pad.  If the response is relatively flat without a higher peak, then a series resistor would work.  It more so goes back to what you are trying to create and what your design profile may be.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

swtnate said:


> I would also like to note, that I'm an American using the metric system.  Proof that anything is possible. lol.


I use both system.... Its nothing new
As humans of this world
We should appreciate and use all system to its full potential


----------



## dhruvmeena96

swtnate said:


> Both a series resistor and an L-Pad will effectively lower the volume of the driver (attenuate).  However, an L-Pad will lower the output in a much flatter more uniform way.  So, yes and no.  It depends on the frequency response as to whether or not the series resistor will create a higher frequency peak.  If so, L-Pad.  If the response is relatively flat without a higher peak, then a series resistor would work.  It more so goes back to what you are trying to create and what your design profile may be.


The monitor is relatively flat impedance to begin with(what he made recently)
So i guess a series resistor will be more than enough


----------



## swtnate

dhruvmeena96 said:


> I use both system.... Its nothing new
> As humans of this world
> We should appreciate and use all system to its full potential



When measuring volumes, weights, and lengths, I gravitate to metric.  For temperature I'm still understanding Celsius. hahahaha.


----------



## swtnate

dhruvmeena96 said:


> The monitor is relatively flat impedance to begin with(what he made recently)
> So i guess a series resistor will be more than enough


anytime you can accomplish your goal with the fewest components, the better.  You would still need to graph it to see if it is enough.


----------



## kkugel (Jul 7, 2021)

I found out how to use these Aliexpress/Taobao impedance boxes, I want to archive this here if anyone ever needs it:
This is the interior wiring, you need to unscrew the box to short the resistor for calibration. IMO they should have built in a button, which shorts the resistor, might just add that myself.










The box was unlabelled, this is how to connect it. You need 2 male TRS to male TRS cables, middle one goes to your soundcard STEREO (!no apple dongle possible!) input, right one goes to headphone or line out of your soundcard. The left socket lets you plug in your headphone TRS cable. With the switch, you can select the headphone channel you're testing. I don't know why, but I had to set input and output in my computer to the left channel for this to work (while I connected the right one).
Works perfect now and I'm glad I could buy everything together, because my small countries last big offline electronics shop which has these sockets just closed this year.

Edit: Don't judge me for the beats TRS cable, a relic of my younger self lmao


----------



## swtnate

kkugel said:


> I found out how to use these Aliexpress/Taobao impedance boxes, I want to archive this here if anyone ever needs it:
> This is the interior wiring, you need to unscrew the box to short the resistor for calibration. IMO they should have built in a button, which shorts the resistor, might just add that myself.
> 
> 
> ...


what are you using this for? never seen or heard of these.  kinda interested....


----------



## kkugel

swtnate said:


> what are you using this for? never seen or heard of these.  kinda interested....


Measuring driver impedance curves, to do perfect crossovers


----------



## swtnate

kkugel said:


> Measuring driver impedance curves, to do perfect crossovers


how would this be of benefit as opposed to a bread board?


----------



## kkugel (Jul 7, 2021)

swtnate said:


> how would this be of benefit as opposed to a bread board?


It's useful if you don't want to solder to TRS cables and just use some you have laying around, be able to use them again for other things. Also I don't have a breadboard and shipping at Mouser for a single precision resistor was more than this whole box. It's a bit more robust for lab use too, which I like. You can also measure other headphone drivers which are still in their headphones with these TRS jacks, just plug the headphone in.


----------



## swtnate

Senor CIEM said:


> Hi together!
> 
> Looking for a good way to make a white shell. I got the Fotoplast in different color which I can mix together and the color concentrates which I got of Dreve. Also they offer a black Fotoplast version. But how gettin a white shell as easy as possible and looking good? Any experience with tattoo color or pigments ESPECIALLY for a nice white tone?
> 
> Thank you!


I use the white from Pro3dure.  It will not amber out at lower UV spectrum exposure.  As far as making your own, I've tried a NUMBER of different things.  One major problem you will encounter is getting titanium dioxide that is finely ground enough.  you need it to be ultra refined to stay in suspension AND not look like sediment caught in the resin.  The absolute best results I ever had was using triple ground Titanium Dioxide.  Some India inks will work but they can cause excessive foaming when mixing.  Also, you may want to look at getting a small vacuum chamber.  This way you can pull the air from the resin before the pigment load has time to settle out.  I get bubble free resin after 15 minutes in the chamber following a good mix or shake.  Usually it would take 3-4 hours.  Just be sure to cover the vacuum chamber.  The top resin will begin to cure in the absence of oxygen.  Especially the lower spectrum Dreve/Egger/ Nicefit resins.


----------



## swtnate

Alright, so I'm trying to calculate some Zobel networks to see how they will effect/ improve current build recipes.  However, there is no spec listing the nominal voice coil inductance for these drivers.  I realize voice coil inductance is dynamic, just like impedance.  But, you'd think there would be at least something to use a reference point.  RAB is the only driver I see that lists inductance.  
Anyone have this information for popular drivers OR are you just solving for coil inductance by using driver impedance and driver DCR?


----------



## swtnate

swtnate said:


> how would this be of benefit as opposed to a bread board?


not to be a wet a blanket, but we're only talking about 1st order BU crossovers AT MOST.  And a single series resistor is just lowering the overall volume.  The crossover slope (only for the series capacitor to a tweeter or mid-driver) is so gradual it's almost negligible.  Fine tuning a driver and sound stage development doesn't come from components.  It comes from tubing length, tubing diameter, horn placement, & damper placement within the tube.  Are you attempting 2nd and 3rd order designs? If so, be mindful of transient sounds (Ie snares, drums, etc.). With the 180 degree phase shift, transients will echo as the frequency overlaps with multiple drivers.  If you need more tweeter, move it closer, and use a wider tube.  If you need less tweeter either move it back or use a series resistor or L-pad.  Anyway, you have me intrigued at what you are attempting.  would love to know more.


----------



## swtnate

swtnate said:


> First post but MAN, this has been an INVALUABLE resource.  Ohhhhh, the amount of learning and investment to learning this industry.  Im all in!  From lab equipment, to drivers, and beyond.  So, I thought Id pay a little bit of it back.  Theres been many posts about hydrocolloid.  One thing that I love about is how replaceable it is.  One thing I hate about it is how EXPENSIVE it can be.  6kg of Egger is over $200 and Krystalloid is a bit better but not as forgiving and the dreve lacks tinsel strength upon impression removal.  Ive gone through countless hours figuring this out and gave up no less than 5 times.  Until, I read the Krystalloid MSDS.  While this doesnt give the recipe, upon further reading on the effects Agar reacting with ethylene glycol, I had another starting point.  I finally recreated, in my opinion, an improved Krystalloid.  This is still reversable.  All the items can be purchased from Amazon or from a chemistry supply house.  One thing is imperative to have, and that is a reliable food/ gram scale.
> 
> this is the recipe for a 500g batch.
> 125g - propylene gycol
> ...


wanted to make an addendum.  There is essentially ZERO cure time differences between using this homemade recipe of colloid and the major brand stuff.  One thing you will notice, more so if you over heat the colloid mixture, is what's known as weeping.  Is basically when your solidified negative form starts to get really wet followed by shrinking up.  I always rinse my molds with 99% IPA and place them inside a ziplock bag in the fridge when not in use.  allow mold to come to room temp prior to pouring resin or you may get some bubbles.


----------



## kkugel

swtnate said:


> not to be a wet a blanket, but we're only talking about 1st order BU crossovers AT MOST.  And a single series resistor is just lowering the overall volume.  The crossover slope (only for the series capacitor to a tweeter or mid-driver) is so gradual it's almost negligible.  Fine tuning a driver and sound stage development doesn't come from components.  It comes from tubing length, tubing diameter, horn placement, & damper placement within the tube.  Are you attempting 2nd and 3rd order designs? If so, be mindful of transient sounds (Ie snares, drums, etc.). With the 180 degree phase shift, transients will echo as the frequency overlaps with multiple drivers.  If you need more tweeter, move it closer, and use a wider tube.  If you need less tweeter either move it back or use a series resistor or L-pad.  Anyway, you have me intrigued at what you are attempting.  would love to know more.


Haha I'll tell you more as soon as I am done and have member of the trade on my name


----------



## saldsald

swtnate said:


> for stretching tubes I use a thick walled #13 PVC tube, tubing expanders OR tweezers, and a standard blow drier on high heat blowing low air.  Soft PVC tubing is highly susceptible to over heating.  So be careful.  PRO TIP: after heating, continue hold the tubing in the same position while blowing cool or cold air to instantly set the tube in the expanded position.
> 
> If you're looking for heat shrink tubing, for instance to protect a PCB or toe wrap a driver, I use FEP heat shrink.  I has a much lower shrinking temp. (420F / 215C) that will don't over heat the drivers if they do come in contact with the heating element.  HOWEVER, its better to wrap your drivers in thin walled latex tubing or large diameter silicone tubing.  This will protect them a little and prevent the tapping sound on the faceplate when they get a little rattled.


Thanks, that's a lot of useful information I think I need a bit of background reading. I think what I have in hand are FEP tubes but the seller didn't specify the type. I am not totally sure what are these #13 PVC tube, latex tubing and large diameter silicone tubing (I think I have some small diameter silicone tubing) and where to get them. Thanks again for the advice.


----------



## saldsald (Jul 7, 2021)

Just purchased an expensive pair of IEM shells for my custom build and then I kind of feel regret. I have a few pairs of CCA CSN so I think it should be a good idea to extract the drivers and reuse the shell and here is what I've got:








You get a pair of 10mm XUN drivers, KZ 30095 and the shells and metal faceplates.

I am thinking this may be a better and cheaper idea (around USD10-15)  than getting empty shells thou you will need to do the extra work to extract the DD which is fine for me. However, I don't want all my IEMs to look the same. Just wonder if it is possible to decorate the faceplate with resin or something to hide the CCA logo?


----------



## swtnate

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000286095395.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.7db04c4drNaCmr


saldsald said:


> Just purchased an expensive pair of IEM shells for my custom build and then I kind of feel regret. I have a few pairs of CCA CSN so I think it should be a good idea to extract the drivers and reuse the shell and here is what I've got:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 I would look at something like this for a universal shell:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000286095395.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.7db04c4drNaCmr

you could repurpose the drivers if they aren't too damaged.  I don't know the specs on the dynamic driver however.


----------



## saldsald

swtnate said:


> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000286095395.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.7db04c4drNaCmr
> 
> I would look at something like this for a universal shell:
> 
> ...


Well I have purchased some of these and also a rather expensive shell but somehow I feel it is also a good idea to repurpose the CSN shell. Guess I will experiment with the faceplate then.


----------



## Theodoric Paddlefoot

dhruvmeena96 said:


> But my question is
> Why is treble rolling of
> @Theodoric Paddlefoot
> 
> ...


The problem was my cheap USB soundcard. I thought I could use it as output but it just didn't work. Now I'm using my ifi Zen DAC and the Apple dongle for measurements.


----------



## swtnate

Theodoric Paddlefoot said:


> The problem was my cheap USB soundcard. I thought I could use it as output but it just didn't work. Now I'm using my ifi Zen DAC and the Apple dongle for measurements.


What do you use for measurement hardware?


----------



## Theodoric Paddlefoot

swtnate said:


> What do you use for measurement hardware?


An IEC711 coupler from Aliexpress and then my ifi Zen Dac as audio out combined with an Apple USB-C to 3.5mm dongle as microphone in.


----------



## swtnate

Theodoric Paddlefoot said:


> An IEC711 coupler from Aliexpress and then my ifi Zen Dac as audio out combined with an Apple USB-C to 3.5mm dongle as microphone in.


Thats interesting.  Im still using my old startec external soundcard


----------



## kkugel

Theodoric Paddlefoot said:


> An IEC711 coupler from Aliexpress and then my ifi Zen Dac as audio out combined with an Apple USB-C to 3.5mm dongle as microphone in.


Use the apple dongle as output and input, that way it's more accurate imo


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Theodoric Paddlefoot said:


> The problem was my cheap USB soundcard. I thought I could use it as output but it just didn't work. Now I'm using my ifi Zen DAC and the Apple dongle for measurements.


This graph is more near to what i did.. 
If i remember, 4k was a just tiny bit damped in my old measurement


----------



## Theodoric Paddlefoot

kkugel said:


> Use the apple dongle as output and input, that way it's more accurate imo


With the Apple dongle for output and input, the bass looks a bit better to me.



dhruvmeena96 said:


> This graph is more near to what i did..
> If i remember, 4k was a just tiny bit damped in my old measurement


I had to move the orange 3300 ohm damper back a few mm because there was no space in the tip, maybe that's the reason?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Theodoric Paddlefoot said:


> With the Apple dongle for output and input, the bass looks a bit better to me.
> 
> 
> I had to move the orange 3300 ohm damper back a few mm because there was no space in the tip, maybe that's the reason?


I guess so, the damping is affected with the placement of damper in the tube


----------



## swtnate

For those with experience, is there a sonion equivalent chart to knowles?

which sonion drivers outshine the knowles?


----------



## kkugel

swtnate said:


> For those with experience, is there a sonion equivalent chart to knowles?
> 
> which sonion drivers outshine the knowles?


Imo 38D1X is the best bass driver available anywhere. I don't know about the rest


----------



## dhruvmeena96

swtnate said:


> For those with experience, is there a sonion equivalent chart to knowles?
> 
> which sonion drivers outshine the knowles?


Sonion
Read the line above the spec chart 
Its all measured on 711 with a specific tube

So, sonion would be easier to use when designing iems and all

Knowles pro engineer uses 2cc coupler which is a headache and the documentation uses 711 but without tube resonance which again makes the whole thing hard to understand


----------



## swtnate

how would you say they compare to the CI and twfk?


----------



## Wgibson

The sonion 20x53 is about the size of a knowles CI, has some internal damping apparently because it has a noticeable treble roll off. I posted about it earlier, filing off a corner to vent it gives it a good boost.


----------



## swtnate

Im really looking at there sealed dual woofers and their tweeters/ super tweeters.  Im really wanting to get some better high end extension above that of an FK or an ED.  Their 2389 is heads above the ED.  And every vented woofer option Ive used blew the HODVTEC out of the water.


----------



## kkugel

swtnate said:


> Im really looking at there sealed dual woofers and their tweeters/ super tweeters.  Im really wanting to get some better high end extension above that of an FK or an ED.  Their 2389 is heads above the ED.  And every vented woofer option Ive used blew the HODVTEC out of the water.


Try Sonion E50DT, amazing HF extension


----------



## piotrus-g

swtnate said:


> Im really looking at there sealed dual woofers and their tweeters/ super tweeters.  Im really wanting to get some better high end extension above that of an FK or an ED.  Their 2389 is heads above the ED.  And every vented woofer option Ive used blew the HODVTEC out of the water.


There's RDI model which is the most powerful woofer driver from Knowles, it's more powerful than 3800 series, but it's not tapered like 38D1XJ so... more power doesn't equal better driver
For tweeters E25T and E50DT but they are much different from the WBFK/SWFK family they are probably closer to the FK with extra top end.


----------



## Aldo40

Wgibson said:


> The sonion 20x53 is about the size of a knowles CI, has some internal damping apparently because it has a noticeable treble roll off. I posted about it earlier, filing off a corner to vent it gives it a good boost.


You can also remove the center tape to ventilate it, it’s less risky and you don’t leave any iron filings that can stick inside.


----------



## kkugel

piotrus-g said:


> There's RDI model which is the most powerful woofer driver from Knowles, it's more powerful than 3800 series, but it's not tapered like 38D1XJ so... more power doesn't equal better driver
> For tweeters E25T and E50DT but they are much different from the WBFK/SWFK family they are probably closer to the FK with extra top end.


I wish they made ferrofluid damped E50s😄


----------



## Luffytaro

Hi, I try to make a cow but not really like


----------



## kmmm

Could really use som advice on how to fit the tiny yellow dampers (1.12mm) in a 1mm ID tube without crushing them. I managed a few but most gets ruined.
Any experience on this?

Also need to get hold of some UV glue. Witch one do you use?


----------



## Aldo40

Original :clin d'œil: ça ressemble à la résine


kmmm said:


> Could really use som advice on how to fit the tiny yellow dampers (1.12mm) in a 1mm ID tube without crushing them. I managed a few but most gets ruined.
> Any experience on this?
> 
> Also need to get hold of some UV glue. Witch one do you use?


I use a toothpick but I cut the sharp end to make a dish, I grab the shock absorber and I press it with the flat toothpick.


----------



## kmmm

Aldo40 said:


> Original :clin d'œil: ça ressemble à la résine
> 
> I use a toothpick but I cut the sharp end to make a dish, I grab the shock absorber and I press it with the flat toothpick.


I have used the back side of a 1.1mm drill bit but the problem is that the damper often turns sideways inside the tube. And there’s no way to save it then… maybe I’ll try a toothpick.

what kind of glue do you use on tubes?


----------



## swtnate

I use a loctite UV glue.  Uv cured medical adhesive.


----------



## kmmm

swtnate said:


> I use a loctite UV glue.  Uv cured medical adhesive.


Interesting! What’s the name of this? Where can I get hold of some?


----------



## kmmm

Aldo40 said:


> Original :clin d'œil: ça ressemble à la résine


But what is it?


----------



## musmecca

Luffytaro said:


> Hi, I try to make a cow but not really like


Those look great! How did you achieve the effect?


----------



## Oluvs Buddy

What equipment, parts and info do I need to make my own IEM and headphone cables?

I find virtually all the cables on my headphones too long as I often use portable DACs on my shirt lapels, top pockets and at my desk.

I now have to make cables which whose maximum length is around my sternum, and I need them for MMCX, 0.78mm, 2.5mm, 3.5mm and what nots.

Proprietary cables also need to be shortened and as I am not ready to open the housings, I have to cut them short, and attach 3.5 socket or whatever connector type is appropriate to them.

So, where do I start?

What tools and parts do I need and what stores and suppliers have them?


----------



## kkugel

Oluvs Buddy said:


> What equipment, parts and info do I need to make my own IEM and headphone cables?
> 
> I find virtually all the cables on my headphones too long as I often use portable DACs on my shirt lapels, top pockets and at my desk.
> 
> ...


For IEMs I'll help you. Shoot me a PM! Anyone who likes Oluv is cool😂👍


----------



## saldsald

Wgibson said:


> Heat shrink tubing is also good for this,  find one that the un shrunk diameter fits on the body of the BA, 3:1 works best but 2:1 can also work, try to find thin wall if possible. First shrink a length of the tube separately (DO NOT heat the BA with the tube around it) and then UV glue or B7000 the tube to the BA body
> 
> This is 2x dual 32257 with tweezer expanded tube (1mm ID) and a 31736 with heat shrink tube pre shrunk and UV glued as described above (1.5 or 2mm ID after shrinking, sorry I don't recall exactly, just see what fits.)
> 
> ...


Which UV glue do you use? I have tried several and they just don't fully harden or not sticking the tube in place properly...


----------



## mattmatt

swtnate said:


> First post but MAN, this has been an INVALUABLE resource.  Ohhhhh, the amount of learning and investment to learning this industry.  Im all in!  From lab equipment, to drivers, and beyond.  So, I thought Id pay a little bit of it back.  Theres been many posts about hydrocolloid.  One thing that I love about is how replaceable it is.  One thing I hate about it is how EXPENSIVE it can be.  6kg of Egger is over $200 and Krystalloid is a bit better but not as forgiving and the dreve lacks tinsel strength upon impression removal.  Ive gone through countless hours figuring this out and gave up no less than 5 times.  Until, I read the Krystalloid MSDS.  While this doesnt give the recipe, upon further reading on the effects Agar reacting with ethylene glycol, I had another starting point.  I finally recreated, in my opinion, an improved Krystalloid.  This is still reversable.  All the items can be purchased from Amazon or from a chemistry supply house.  One thing is imperative to have, and that is a reliable food/ gram scale.
> 
> this is the recipe for a 500g batch.
> 125g - propylene gycol
> ...


I've never used Krystalloid and not sure how to use them. Used egger and nicefit. Just wondering, does the ethyl glycol reacts as a retarder for the agar? Been trying to recreate hydro colloids but I always get the same result as gelatin which is not ideal, where it hardens quickly from top to bottom and still warm(hot) to the touch unlike commercial colloids where it cools down pretty good but still remain liquid, no skin forming at the top of the mixture, viscosity depending on the temperature.


----------



## Theodoric Paddlefoot

saldsald said:


> Which UV glue do you use? I have tried several and they just don't fully harden or not sticking the tube in place properly...


Hey, I use the cheapest crystal clear uv resin I could find for tubing and it works like a charm. For everything that could touch my ear I'd rather use some medical grade stuff but since everything is inside the shell I have no problem with using simple uv resin.
The resin sticks nicely to metal and the tubes and I can always remove it with a scalpel/tweezers and some patience.


----------



## Wgibson

Got my uv glue from a friend, not sure on the details. And so far I'm just using universal plastic shells


----------



## kkugel

Theodoric Paddlefoot said:


> Hey, I use the cheapest crystal clear uv resin I could find for tubing and it works like a charm. For everything that could touch my ear I'd rather use some medical grade stuff but since everything is inside the shell I have no problem with using simple uv resin.
> The resin sticks nicely to metal and the tubes and I can always remove it with a scalpel/tweezers and some patience.


Can you PM me the name or link? I had trouble finding a cost efficient alternative, only expensive stuff. thank you!


----------



## saldsald

Theodoric Paddlefoot said:


> Hey, I use the cheapest crystal clear uv resin I could find for tubing and it works like a charm. For everything that could touch my ear I'd rather use some medical grade stuff but since everything is inside the shell I have no problem with using simple uv resin.
> The resin sticks nicely to metal and the tubes and I can always remove it with a scalpel/tweezers and some patience.


Where did you get your resin from? I have tried several and none of them really worked out for me sadly. I have some nail polish remover alike that work quite well to remove the resin thou. 


Wgibson said:


> Got my uv glue from a friend, not sure on the details. And so far I'm just using universal plastic shells



I am trying to make a Y tubing with heat shrink and some 2mm ID tubes but they just don't stick together firmly enough by the glue. Guess I will need to buy more UV glue to experiment with then.


----------



## Theodoric Paddlefoot

saldsald said:


> Where did you get your resin from? I have tried several and none of them really worked out for me sadly. I have some nail polish remover alike that work quite well to remove the resin thou.
> 
> 
> I am trying to make a Y tubing with heat shrink and some 2mm ID tubes but they just don't stick together firmly enough by the glue. Guess I will need to buy more UV glue to experiment with then.


I'm using a generic uv resin from Amazon. It's nothing special at all. I'll shoot you a pm with a link.


----------



## Aldo40 (Jul 15, 2021)

Personnellement,  j'utilise la super colle classique 3 pour coller les tubes au driver .

https://www.amazon.fr/Loctite-Super-Power-Control-1621077/dp/B00AZ14X84

Et par sécurité j'ai fini par mettre une couche de résine UV sur le joint. Il est très solide, j'ai déjà essayé de tirer il faut faire attention que le bec du driver ne se détache pas. .


----------



## musmecca

I use bondic for my tube and faceplate attachment. If I need extra strength on my tube/ba 


connections, I'll add some epoxy over the bondic. I have used loctite medical/fumeless... however I ruined a driver or two because it is too watery and got into the ba, ruining it.


----------



## kkugel

musmecca said:


> I use bondic for my tube and faceplate attachment. If I need extra strength on my tube/ba connections, I'll add some epoxy over the bondic. I have used loctite medical/fumeless... however I ruined a driver or two because it is too watery and got into the ba, ruining it.


How long does it need to cure usually? (Not gonna believe marketing claims lol)


----------



## musmecca

kkugel said:


> How long does it need to cure usually? (Not gonna believe marketing claims lol)


With the light, it can attach immediately but it it takes about a minute to fully harden. I highly recommend it, as I hate holding things waiting on glue to cure!


----------



## swtnate

kmmm said:


> Interesting! What’s the name of this? Where can I get hold of some?


I use Loctite 3301, designed to glue PVC to polycarbonate, for gluing tubes to the drivers.  I use 3921 for gluing faceplates.  I also use loctite 3611 single component epoxy to glue down smd components prior to solder.  Its important to use adhesives that cure at lower spectrum than the UV cured shells.  I use 405nm material from pro3dure.  The adhesives are LOW spectrum curing so, 350-365 will cure the glue and not FULLY over cure your shell material.


----------



## kmmm

swtnate said:


> I use Loctite 3301, designed to glue PVC to polycarbonate, for gluing tubes to the drivers.  I use 3921 for gluing faceplates.  I also use loctite 3611 single component epoxy to glue down smd components prior to solder.  Its important to use adhesives that cure at lower spectrum than the UV cured shells.  I use 405nm material from pro3dure.  The adhesives are LOW spectrum curing so, 350-365 will cure the glue and not FULLY over cure your shell material.


Where do you buy the Loctite 3000 series from?


----------



## swtnate

kmmm said:


> Where do you buy the Loctite 3000 series from?


You can get them from multiple suppliers online.  Im in the US.  Ive used a few different sources.  I just search the part number.


----------



## swtnate

kmmm said:


> Where do you buy the Loctite 3000 series from?


This looks like a suitable replacement:
https://www.hisco.com/Product/88299...MI_bmF0abq8QIV0z6tBh17wwv0EAQYBSABEgJZvfD_BwE


----------



## MythicalEon

Hey there, for anyone who has cut their impressions digitally before, could I ask for some feedback on my workflow? I feel like there's definitely a better and more efficient way I don't know about. It's first time dealing with organic shapes, or editing an STL at all for that matter. I've messed up my silicone impression cutting and couldn't make duplicates as my impression silicone's curing is inhibited by my mSLA 3D printed mold. If there's a way to get more accurate impression duplicates from an STL and a mSLA printer, please let me know as well.

Current workflow is to convert my STL to a solid in Fusion 360, then create a plane offset from XY plane to where I want to cut and sketch a spline or line. I then make a surface with that sketch that extends downwards and cut whatever I want off. I repeat this process from different heights for each part I want to cut off to achieve a final form. However, what I'm unsatisfied with aside from my utter lack of skill in spline control is that it is very difficult to force the solid to taper inwards so that I can have a better looking faceplate shape where I would be able to just rotary tool the edges away with silicone (until I overcut them of course), and because I'm mainly cutting straight down, I have to start sketches from many different heights and cannot get certain curves to cut in a way where I have less excess material flaring out (see: below ear canal). I'd like to hear what are the actual workflows people are working with to make these things, and if anyone is using Fusion 360 like me, I'd like to hear some tips from you. 

Images of my work so far is posted below, ignore the fact that I suck at making smooth shapes, It's my first time and I'll be redoing them next weekend when I have time. Thanks.


----------



## mattmatt

MythicalEon said:


> Hey there, for anyone who has cut their impressions digitally before, could I ask for some feedback on my workflow? I feel like there's definitely a better and more efficient way I don't know about. It's first time dealing with organic shapes, or editing an STL at all for that matter. I've messed up my silicone impression cutting and couldn't make duplicates as my impression silicone's curing is inhibited by my mSLA 3D printed mold. If there's a way to get more accurate impression duplicates from an STL and a mSLA printer, please let me know as well.
> 
> Current workflow is to convert my STL to a solid in Fusion 360, then create a plane offset from XY plane to where I want to cut and sketch a spline or line. I then make a surface with that sketch that extends downwards and cut whatever I want off. I repeat this process from different heights for each part I want to cut off to achieve a final form. However, what I'm unsatisfied with aside from my utter lack of skill in spline control is that it is very difficult to force the solid to taper inwards so that I can have a better looking faceplate shape where I would be able to just rotary tool the edges away with silicone (until I overcut them of course), and because I'm mainly cutting straight down, I have to start sketches from many different heights and cannot get certain curves to cut in a way where I have less excess material flaring out (see: below ear canal). I'd like to hear what are the actual workflows people are working with to make these things, and if anyone is using Fusion 360 like me, I'd like to hear some tips from you.
> 
> Images of my work so far is posted below, ignore the fact that I suck at making smooth shapes, It's my first time and I'll be redoing them next weekend when I have time. Thanks.


I don't have luck with f360 too with impression trimming. I use meshmixer and it works really well. Shoot me a message if you have queries about it. I might be able to help you out.


----------



## piotrus-g

MythicalEon said:


> Hey there, for anyone who has cut their impressions digitally before, could I ask for some feedback on my workflow? I feel like there's definitely a better and more efficient way I don't know about. It's first time dealing with organic shapes, or editing an STL at all for that matter. I've messed up my silicone impression cutting and couldn't make duplicates as my impression silicone's curing is inhibited by my mSLA 3D printed mold. If there's a way to get more accurate impression duplicates from an STL and a mSLA printer, please let me know as well.
> 
> Current workflow is to convert my STL to a solid in Fusion 360, then create a plane offset from XY plane to where I want to cut and sketch a spline or line. I then make a surface with that sketch that extends downwards and cut whatever I want off. I repeat this process from different heights for each part I want to cut off to achieve a final form. However, what I'm unsatisfied with aside from my utter lack of skill in spline control is that it is very difficult to force the solid to taper inwards so that I can have a better looking faceplate shape where I would be able to just rotary tool the edges away with silicone (until I overcut them of course), and because I'm mainly cutting straight down, I have to start sketches from many different heights and cannot get certain curves to cut in a way where I have less excess material flaring out (see: below ear canal). I'd like to hear what are the actual workflows people are working with to make these things, and if anyone is using Fusion 360 like me, I'd like to hear some tips from you.
> 
> Images of my work so far is posted below, ignore the fact that I suck at making smooth shapes, It's my first time and I'll be redoing them next weekend when I have time. Thanks.


Fusion is not good choice for this. You need something for mesh 
Out of curiosity how did you manage to convert mesh to BRep so well? Did you do it within Fusion or with different software? Cause my experience with fusion conversion is mediocre.


----------



## swtnate

piotrus-g said:


> Fusion is not good choice for this. You need something for mesh
> Out of curiosity how did you manage to convert mesh to BRep so well? Did you do it within Fusion or with different software? Cause my experience with fusion conversion is mediocre.


Ive dabbled.  3shape is amazing for import and impression manipulation. You can create 3D printed molds for silicone OR finish printed shells.


----------



## Aldo40 (Jul 19, 2021)

MythicalEon​utilisez meshmixer pour découper, adoucir et finaliser vos STL, vous perdez votre temps en fusion 360


----------



## Aldo40

piotrus-g said:


> Fusion is not good choice for this. You need something for mesh
> Out of curiosity how did you manage to convert mesh to BRep so well? Did you do it within Fusion or with different software? Cause my experience with fusion conversion is mediocre.


I am also interested because the BRep conversion was never conclusive for me too and yet it is an interesting function for modifying CIEM to STL file


----------



## mattmatt

piotrus-g said:


> Fusion is not good choice for this. You need something for mesh
> Out of curiosity how did you manage to convert mesh to BRep so well? Did you do it within Fusion or with different software? Cause my experience with fusion conversion is mediocre.


I used to do this but kind of forgot how to do it. I think I started off with recap.  Here's a vid on how I did it.


----------



## Wgibson

Anyone have suggestions for a big (inside space, room for drivers) earbud type shell? Easy to fit in your ears if you never used IEMs before. Not an actual like 15mm shell earbud, but I guess a "canal type earphone" that plugs straight in, like a sony MH750.

I try to have friends listen to some stuff I've made, but we all know if you can't get a good seal with the tips, it's gonna sound bad but still maybe better than a mass produced earbud so how would they know? They might think "sound fine" but not get any bass.

Related topic: we all do this stuff to gain a better experience when listening to music. How do you put that bug in someone's ear?


----------



## MythicalEon

piotrus-g said:


> Fusion is not good choice for this. You need something for mesh
> Out of curiosity how did you manage to convert mesh to BRep so well? Did you do it within Fusion or with different software? Cause my experience with fusion conversion is mediocre.


I converted my STL to a quad mesh OBJ with a software called Instant Meshes, which allows me to convert the OBJ to a T-spline form in Fusion 360 instead, which is a mathematical way of defining a form rather than defined through triangles that has to be reduced to work in Fusion 360. Then I convert the T-spline into a BRep, which lets me have those smooth curves.



Aldo40 said:


> MythicalEon​utilisez meshmixer pour découper, adoucir et finaliser vos STL, vous perdez votre temps en fusion 360


Thanks for the advice. What tools in particular should I be using for the final cuts for the impression? Deflate causes the inside surface to balloon out in my experience, and smooth just... feels wrong somehow, or maybe I just lack the skill.



swtnate said:


> Ive dabbled.  3shape is amazing for import and impression manipulation. You can create 3D printed molds for silicone OR finish printed shells.


Nice, I'll check that out. Thanks.


----------



## MythicalEon

Definitely easier to get the curves and shapes I want with Meshmixer, albeit at the cost of overly smoothed edges and bumpy surfaces. I could use this and manually sand to my desired shape anyways, but just to be sure, any way to clean it up more in software or is this where it ends?


----------



## mattmatt

MythicalEon said:


> Definitely easier to get the curves and shapes I want with Meshmixer, albeit at the cost of overly smoothed edges and bumpy surfaces. I could use this and manually sand to my desired shape anyways, but just to be sure, any way to clean it up more in software or is this where it ends?


You are already good! Do you still need my help? 😂 it's already looking good.


----------



## MythicalEon

mattmatt said:


> You are already good! Do you still need my help? 😂 it's already looking good.


Oh! That's reassuring to hear. I suppose it's a matter of practice from here on out then. I'll message you if I end up needing more help, thanks a lot for offering!

As for the edges causing the inside surface to explode out, is there a way to prevent that or is that just how it is? I'm using inflate and smooth to fix whenever it happens but that definitely affects my confidence in the earphones fit since I keep adding and removing material.


----------



## piotrus-g

mattmatt said:


> I used to do this but kind of forgot how to do it. I think I started off with recap.  Here's a vid on how I did it.



Holy s*** this is brilliant! Thank you so much!


----------



## mattmatt

piotrus-g said:


> Holy s*** this is brilliant! Thank you so much!


No need to thank me. I'm just happy that I was able to help you out with a small thing. Tho I stopped using this method but still manage to get some good result. Main reason is I cannot get ReCap to create quads again. 

Never liked editing the shell in F360. I just use F360 to add features like built in tubing and module and socket holders. I still convert the shell to solid so I can edit the shell out along with the features (mostly cut through extrude). I just convert the mesh to Brep directly in F360.


----------



## MythicalEon

mattmatt said:


> No need to thank me. I'm just happy that I was able to help you out with a small thing. Tho I stopped using this method but still manage to get some good result. Main reason is I cannot get ReCap to create quads again.
> 
> Never liked editing the shell in F360. I just use F360 to add features like built in tubing and module and socket holders. I still convert the shell to solid so I can edit the shell out along with the features (mostly cut through extrude). I just convert the mesh to Brep directly in F360.



Instant Meshes is what I use now, works to create quads and is publicly available for download on GitHub. I'm not sure about the rules on posting links so I'll refrain.

That being said though, that is a LOOOT of faces there... Fusion 360 grinds to a halt on my laptop if I tried this xD


----------



## piotrus-g (Jul 20, 2021)

mattmatt said:


>


Looking at your sound bores... Instead of extruding parts then creating pipe then creating lofts between pipe and extrudes. Do the extrudes then open sketch, select 3D sketch and do multi point spline - start by snapping end points to extruded profiles then add few more spline points, then go to loft - select profiles of the extrudes and add rails - select spline (for some lofts you might need two splines for perfect loft), adjust computing options to achieve smoother transitions. The effect is smooth single line that you can later easily adjust by moving splines on the sketch.


----------



## mattmatt

piotrus-g said:


> Looking at your sound bores... Instead of extruding parts then creating pipe then creating lofts between pipe and extrudes. Do the extrudes then open sketch, select 3D sketch and do multi point spline - start by snapping end points to extruded profiles then add few more spline points, then go to loft - select profiles of the extrudes and add rails - select spline (for some lofts you might need two splines for perfect loft), adjust computing options to achieve smoother transitions. The effect is smooth single line that you can later easily adjust by moving splines on the sketch.


Thank you so much! Will try this out. Will save this to my notes. Tho what you said is not my method actually. What I do is create lines perpendicular to the face of where I want it to end from there, I would create a spline and connect both line with it. I then use that to create a pipe. Will try to figure out your way. Always had a terrible time with lofts. The reason for the perpendicular line is to ensure that the pipe will be created. Most of the times when I don't have the vertical lines, I would get an error creating the pipe.


----------



## mattmatt

1. Import STL. Mine is direct from the 3d scanning.



2. Use “T” to translate and align the impressions where you want to cut it. It is helpful to turn off snapping by clicking the “S” and turning on fixed XYZ by turning on the “W”



3. Click Edit and select “Plane Cut”. Turn on snapping since it will be helpful to cut through Y=0 for later steps.



4. Click “Select” and highlight the areas you want to cut through. You can deselect areas by pressing “shift” while dragging the brush along.



5. Click “Edit” and select “Plane Cut”. This will allow you to cut through your selected areas without affecting the areas you didn’t highlight.






6.Click “Edit” and select “Make Solid”. Always to make sure to select accurate as “Solid Type”. You can play with the accuracy and mesh density but this will lead to increase in file size.
7. Repeat steps on other areas.







8. You can also select areas and delete them and fill them after by “Make Solid”.





9. You can go with many way with this. Either select and press “Control F” (Max Smoothing setting)








10. Or You can create a brush that smooths areas from the sculpt menu. There are various brushes you can try on with. Press shift while dragging along the brush to subtract material and smoothen it at the same time. Result above.



11. At this point, this is where I cut the canal. This is where your judgement on where to cut will come into play. Use “Edit>Plan Cut Function.”






12. Select this part of the canal and press (control F) or Edit>Smooth. Increase scale to your liking.






13. I then cut out the faceplate part to create a flat face, a fraction of a millimeter will do.



14. Double click the face generated and extrude it by 1.5-2.5mm depending on my preferred shell thickness and how much I cut the faceplate out. This will come into play later. Let’s have the shell being created right now is 0.8mm thick just for a sample fit shell. We extrude the faceplate in order to cut it again at y=0mm. I consider the extrusion with the shell thickness when we hollow out. Ideally, the inside part of the faceplate should sit below y=0 if that makes sense. Photo will explain it more later.



15. Edit > Make Solid.






16. Click “Select” and double click the shell to select all. Press “Control F” to smooth out the impression. See difference in between them.


----------



## kkugel

mattmatt said:


> No need to thank me. I'm just happy that I was able to help you out with a small thing. Tho I stopped using this method but still manage to get some good result. Main reason is I cannot get ReCap to create quads again.
> 
> Never liked editing the shell in F360. I just use F360 to add features like built in tubing and module and socket holders. I still convert the shell to solid so I can edit the shell out along with the features (mostly cut through extrude). I just convert the mesh to Brep directly in F360.


You got the tubing saved separately or do you recreate it for every CIEM?


----------



## mattmatt

17. Select all the shell again, Edit > Extract > Enter your desired thickness. Extract Direction should be “Normal”. This would make the shell slightly bigger, same as when you’re waxing the impression to make the impressions smooth and slightly bigger for it to seal better. Think of the thickness as the thickness of the wax when you dip the impression in liquid wax.



18. Edit > Make Hollow. Enter the desired shell thickness. As you can see above, the inside part of the faceplate sits below our baseline when we created the hollow. This would allow us to cut at the baseline and be left with a hollow shell without faceplate.






19. Plane Cut at baseline. Edit > Make Solid > Control E to export STL.

Really sorry for bombarding the thread with photos. Just want to help out MythicalEon. Hoping that this would help out other people too. 

If anyone has another approach with this kindly do share! 

Cheers, everyone.


----------



## mattmatt

kkugel said:


> You got the tubing saved separately or do you recreate it for every CIEM?


Would need to create it for every CIEM since the path would never be the same for each ear. I don't usually do this. I just messed around with this for a personal pair.


----------



## Aldo40

hi mattmatt, I use the same method

for magnification I put 0.25mm it’s quite versatile, I had to go up to 0.30mm.

I would just import the shell modify from meshmixer without the hollow to send it in fusion 360.

I would like to separate the channel to integrate the tubes and make a hollow on the upper part of the body.

I manage to do it on universal iem that I create entirely with fusion 360 as below


----------



## mattmatt

Aldo40 said:


> hi mattmatt, I use the same method
> 
> for magnification I put 0.25mm it’s quite versatile, I had to go up to 0.30mm.
> 
> ...


Hey man! How do you hollow the top part of your shells?


----------



## Aldo40

mattmatt said:


> Hey man! How do you hollow the top part of your shells?


in fusion before digging the shell, I separate the body into two parts.
If I want to work on body A, I deselect body B for masked.
I’m digging body A.
Then I reconnect body A and B and then I can draw my tubes in the background


----------



## Aldo40

la méthode tubing




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[URL=https://www.casimages.com/i/21072003305488719.png.html] 
	

[ /url]
[URL=https://www.casimages.com/i/210720033106911348.png.html] 
	

[ /url]
[URL=https://www.casimages.com/i/210720033143942841.png.html] 
	

[ /url]


----------



## piotrus-g

mattmatt said:


> Thank you so much! Will try this out. Will save this to my notes. Tho what you said is not my method actually. What I do is create lines perpendicular to the face of where I want it to end from there, I would create a spline and connect both line with it. I then use that to create a pipe. Will try to figure out your way. Always had a terrible time with lofts. The reason for the perpendicular line is to ensure that the pipe will be created. Most of the times when I don't have the vertical lines, I would get an error creating the pipe.


I know what you mean with lofts. I kind of had similar problem. Loft with a rail (preferably dual) will give you perfect transition with this nice organic shape and since it's just one step versus 3 or 4 it's less messy and easier to control


----------



## gregeagle

hey guys.....does anybody use REW mit Mac OS11????? I am freaking out!!!!! Cant get the mic to work!!!!!!
Please help! I tried everything I could find on google!!!! I am using REW 5.2 beta!! before that I had 5.19 which also didn't work!!!! what shall I do???

Thansk for your help!


----------



## swtnate

gregeagle said:


> hey guys.....does anybody use REW mit Mac OS11????? I am freaking out!!!!! Cant get the mic to work!!!!!!
> Please help! I tried everything I could find on google!!!! I am using REW 5.2 beta!! before that I had 5.19 which also didn't work!!!! what shall I do???
> 
> Thansk for your help!


I use REW on mac.  Most likely, your not connected a soundcard that supports the TRRS.  You need an external soundcard such as this:
StarTech.com USB Sound Card w/ SPDIF Digital Audio & Stereo Mic – External Sound Card for Laptop or PC – SPDIF Output (ICUSBAUDIO2D),Black https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00F7120T...abc_FVAPWRJY2V4MWRE29C3W?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1


----------



## gregeagle

swtnate said:


> I use REW on mac.  Most likely, your not connected a soundcard that supports the TRRS.  You need an external soundcard such as this:
> StarTech.com USB Sound Card w/ SPDIF Digital Audio & Stereo Mic – External Sound Card for Laptop or PC – SPDIF Output (ICUSBAUDIO2D),Black https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00F7120T...abc_FVAPWRJY2V4MWRE29C3W?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1


thanks...but it get the signal from mic on the input....I can also make a soundcardcalibration which looks ok....but if I want to make a measurement It just doesn't look ok!!!


----------



## gregeagle (Jul 21, 2021)

this is what I get?!?!?! pixel is the soundcardcalibration....red is the measurement with the exact same settings and headphone and mic!!!! 
I just don't get it anymore!!!


----------



## MythicalEon

gregeagle said:


> this is what I get?!?!?! pixel is the soundcardcalibration....red is the measurement with the exact same settings and headphone and mic!!!!
> I just don't get it anymore!!!



Looking at the graph, I'm guessing you performed the calibration with the IEM plugged into the mic. When the calibration, which is the measured FR of the IEM, is applied to the measured FR of the IEM (the same graph), it results in a flat line as you have gotten. They cancel each other out.

Try calibrating with your output plugged directly to your input (Calibrating the soundcard *by itself*), then taking the measurement as per normal. If you are using headphone output to a microphone input however, try to use lower audio volume to avoid possibly burning the internal mic signal amp out. It's always a possibility that is worth noting IMO however unlikely.


----------



## ForceMajeure

piotrus-g said:


> Looking at your sound bores... Instead of extruding parts then creating pipe then creating lofts between pipe and extrudes. Do the extrudes then open sketch, select 3D sketch and do multi point spline - start by snapping end points to extruded profiles then add few more spline points, then go to loft - select profiles of the extrudes and add rails - select spline (for some lofts you might need two splines for perfect loft), adjust computing options to achieve smoother transitions. The effect is smooth single line that you can later easily adjust by moving splines on the sketch.


I just tested the 3d sketch your way. It works great. Connecting the 2 end dots of each profile and then adding spline points.
This is really nice. Thank you


----------



## piotrus-g

ForceMajeure said:


> I just tested the 3d sketch your way. It works great. Connecting the 2 end dots of each profile and then adding spline points.
> This is really nice. Thank you


You're welcome my friend


----------



## swtnate

piotrus-g said:


> You're welcome my friend


Whats the resonance differences with mapped 3D tubes versus PVC?


----------



## gregeagle

MythicalEon said:


> Looking at the graph, I'm guessing you performed the calibration with the IEM plugged into the mic. When the calibration, which is the measured FR of the IEM, is applied to the measured FR of the IEM (the same graph), it results in a flat line as you have gotten. They cancel each other out.
> 
> Try calibrating with your output plugged directly to your input (Calibrating the soundcard *by itself*), then taking the measurement as per normal. If you are using headphone output to a microphone input however, try to use lower audio volume to avoid possibly burning the internal mic signal amp out. It's always a possibility that is worth noting IMO however unlikely.


Thanks man!!!!! Finally i got. to manage ist!!!


----------



## kkugel

Anyone calibrated the Apple Dongle as Soundcard? I wanted more precision but it does weird stuff when I try to calibrate


----------



## MythicalEon

kkugel said:


> Anyone calibrated the Apple Dongle as Soundcard? I wanted more precision but it does weird stuff when I try to calibrate



I personally had zero luck with loopback calibration with the Apple Dongle, so what I did instead was to measure the same IEM with a calibrated card, then with the Apple Dongle, exported both graphs as text files, then wrote a Python program to subtract between the two output files and used that as my calibration file.


----------



## kkugel

MythicalEon said:


> I personally had zero luck with loopback calibration with the Apple Dongle, so what I did instead was to measure the same IEM with a calibrated card, then with the Apple Dongle, exported both graphs as text files, then wrote a Python program to subtract between the two output files and used that as my calibration file.


Could you send it to me? As it will be identical for the dongle


----------



## MythicalEon (Jul 23, 2021)

kkugel said:


> Could you send it to me? As it will be identical for the dongle



Sure. But a lot of caveats:
1. I now realize you're likely talking about the USB-C dongle which I don't have, while I use a lightning dongle xD
2. My particular dongle has gigachad bass roll-off, where I have seen some without and some with. YMMV to whoever uses this.
3. It is not SPL calibrated at all.


----------



## kkugel

MythicalEon said:


> Sure. But a lot of caveats:
> 1. I now realize you're likely talking about the USB-C dongle which I don't have, while I use a lightning dongle xD
> 2. My particular dongle has gigachad bass roll-off, where I have seen some without and some with. YMMV to whoever uses this.
> 3. It is not SPL calibrated at all.


Thanks👍 I do have the USB C one with gigachad bass linearity😂


----------



## Jerry-S

I recently gave a listen to an old set.
I had built a Savant (ED 29689 + ED 30761) a few years ago and it gets almost no ear time. Simply because it doesn't have near enough bass output.
I love the midrange and treble is ok. Clarity is really good. 
So it got me thinking about adding a bass driver of some sort.
I've narrowed down choices to either 38D1XJ007Mi/8A or a Dynamic 

Has anyone done something similar to this? Any advice on which route to pursue?


----------



## musmecca (Jul 24, 2021)

Jerry-S said:


> I recently gave a listen to an old set.
> I had built a Savant (ED 29689 + ED 30761) a few years ago and it gets almost no ear time. Simply because it doesn't have near enough bass output.
> I love the midrange and treble is ok. Clarity is really good.
> So it got me thinking about adding a bass driver of some sort.
> ...


Yes! I did a few builds (MASM, MASM Pro) and no matter what, I wasn't feeling the bass. Someone (mattmatt possibly....i'll find and give credit) did a study of bass drivers with varying tube diameters and types. It got me thinking of the best configuration for an add-on sub for just these situations. . If you were like me, I had a very good looking build I didn't want to destroy so this is the solution. I used a CI with an ALUMINUM 1mm tube. I drilled a small hole in the canal part of the IEM so I could simply slide the tube into place without destroying anything else. Lenght of tube is inconsequential becasue it's a sub. Once the tube is in place, I got a 2mm piece of pvc tubing as a connector only. I put a green damper...one of the tiny knowles without the metal shell (1.5 mm?) and put it directly on the spout of the CI.  I sealed the tubes, did my electrical and resealed it all. It is my best sounding rig as the aluminum tube is fast, no flub, and with the damper it doesn't interfere with other frequencies. I've done this a few times and am very pleased.


----------



## kkugel

musmecca said:


> Yes! I did a few builds (MASM, MASM Pro) and no matter what, I wasn't feeling the bass. Someone (mattmatt possibly....i'll find and give credit) did a study of bass drivers with varying tube diameters and types. It got me thinking of the best configuration for an add-on sub for just these situations. . If you were like me, I had a very good looking build I didn't want to destroy so this is the solution. I used a CI with an ALUMINUM 1mm tube. I drilled a small hole in the canal part of the IEM so I could simply slide the tube into place without destroying anything else. Lenght of tube is inconsequential becasue it's a sub. Once the tube is in place, I got a 2mm piece of pvc tubing as a connector only. I put a green damper...one of the tiny knowles without the metal shell (1.5 mm?) and put it directly on the spout of the CI.  I sealed the tubes, did my electrical and resealed it all. It is my best sounding rig as the aluminum tube is fast, no flub, and with the damper it doesn't interfere with other frequencies. I've done this a few times and am very pleased.


I'm interested in the aluminum difference, what do you mean with "no flub"?


----------



## mattmatt

musmecca said:


> Yes! I did a few builds (MASM, MASM Pro) and no matter what, I wasn't feeling the bass. Someone (mattmatt possibly....i'll find and give credit) did a study of bass drivers with varying tube diameters and types. It got me thinking of the best configuration for an add-on sub for just these situations. . If you were like me, I had a very good looking build I didn't want to destroy so this is the solution. I used a CI with an ALUMINUM 1mm tube. I drilled a small hole in the canal part of the IEM so I could simply slide the tube into place without destroying anything else. Lenght of tube is inconsequential becasue it's a sub. Once the tube is in place, I got a 2mm piece of pvc tubing as a connector only. I put a green damper...one of the tiny knowles without the metal shell (1.5 mm?) and put it directly on the spout of the CI.  I sealed the tubes, did my electrical and resealed it all. It is my best sounding rig as the aluminum tube is fast, no flub, and with the damper it doesn't interfere with other frequencies. I've done this a few times and am very pleased.


I don't remember about it so it's probably not me you should give credit for but did experiments with it but find it's way too laborious for me so I stuck with PVC tubing. Tube length, even for sub has effect tho as for my study and experience. Tho high frequencies are much more susceptible to change. Even damper placement makes a huge difference with tweeters.


----------



## musmecca

kkugel said:


> I'm interested in the aluminum difference, what do you mean with "no flub"?


When I say no flub, it means it is very fast, transients are very accurate, and there isn't any distortion caused by varying playing styles even when you hit the lowest notes. Some speakers sound great and fast when you're playing higher in the register, but "flub...crap out...become mush" when you hit low sub notes. Sorry...life long guitar player here! There is something special about the CI with an aluminum 1mm tube.....I played with many configurations and I got lucky with the combo. I did try the sonion 38, but it was soo loud I would have had to re-pad everything and I had already epoxied my caps/resistors/connections in place...this was the easiest drop in solution for me, especially since I had zobeled the already installed drivers.  I'll go through my notes and see if I can find exactly what the values were.


----------



## musmecca

mattmatt said:


> I don't remember about it so it's probably not me you should give credit for but did experiments with it but find it's way too laborious for me so I stuck with PVC tubing. Tube length, even for sub has effect tho as for my study and experience. Tho high frequencies are much more susceptible to change. Even damper placement makes a huge difference with tweeters.


The original poster if I recall was in Oklahoma City...the only thing worse than my building skills is my computer skills and memory! Anyways, complteley agree with damper placement, length, etc. Dhruv had suggested a few builds to me using a 1mm tube with long lengths just as a sub...nothing more.  He had said the CI or 38 would be more diffuse field if used in this manner. I wish I had kept better notes! I consider myself lucky....not talented with this one!


----------



## dhruvmeena96

musmecca said:


> Yes! I did a few builds (MASM, MASM Pro) and no matter what, I wasn't feeling the bass. Someone (mattmatt possibly....i'll find and give credit) did a study of bass drivers with varying tube diameters and types. It got me thinking of the best configuration for an add-on sub for just these situations. . If you were like me, I had a very good looking build I didn't want to destroy so this is the solution. I used a CI with an ALUMINUM 1mm tube. I drilled a small hole in the canal part of the IEM so I could simply slide the tube into place without destroying anything else. Lenght of tube is inconsequential becasue it's a sub. Once the tube is in place, I got a 2mm piece of pvc tubing as a connector only. I put a green damper...one of the tiny knowles without the metal shell (1.5 mm?) and put it directly on the spout of the CI.  I sealed the tubes, did my electrical and resealed it all. It is my best sounding rig as the aluminum tube is fast, no flub, and with the damper it doesn't interfere with other frequencies. I've done this a few times and am very pleased.


CI is not a subwoofer
I repeat
CI is not a subwoofer

Its a fullrange driver with wrong pinnae peak

If you need sub
Go for 38D1XJ

Or try to cross CI


----------



## musmecca

dhruvmeena96 said:


> CI is not a subwoofer
> I repeat
> CI is not a subwoofer
> 
> ...


Any you are correct! 38 is a much more powerful sub woofer.  It's SPL is much higer than the CI, which is great in original design. But this was a retrofit, which made me think about how to play with the original configuration without destroying what I had already built.  You mentioned crossing the CI: I simply used mechanical means of tube material, diameter, length, and filter to accomplish the desired result. I did find the reference...it was Wgibson who did the analysis.


----------



## mattmatt

musmecca said:


> Any you are correct! 38 is a much more powerful sub woofer.  It's SPL is much higer than the CI, which is great in original design. But this was a retrofit, which made me think about how to play with the original configuration without destroying what I had already built.  You mentioned crossing the CI: I simply used mechanical means of tube material, diameter, length, and filter to accomplish the desired result. I did find the reference...it was Wgibson who did the analysis.


Some use double CI with Double Yellow to for subs.  A really well known and expensive use this setup. 

I really like the CI to.


----------



## mattmatt

musmecca said:


> Any you are correct! 38 is a much more powerful sub woofer.  It's SPL is much higer than the CI, which is great in original design. But this was a retrofit, which made me think about how to play with the original configuration without destroying what I had already built.  You mentioned crossing the CI: I simply used mechanical means of tube material, diameter, length, and filter to accomplish the desired result. I did find the reference...it was Wgibson who did the analysis.


Also, adding a low pass with CI kind of flattens it's bloat from 20-100 iirc.


----------



## musmecca

mattmatt said:


> Also, adding a low pass with CI kind of flattens it's bloat from 20-100 iirc.


What low pass values do you use for your filter?


----------



## Wgibson

I would try venting the CI and use something between 0.2 and 0.6mm ID.

This sonion 20x53 is big, like a CI but has some internal damper already so it has good rolloff by itself, smaller tube helps even more.

Check out these two graphs, I assume venting the CI would have similar results as the 20x53. Vented CI with small diameter tube should give you a good rising slope down to 25hz or so if I were to guess.


----------



## mattmatt

musmecca said:


> What low pass values do you use for your filter?


Sorry, man can't disclose it due to some reasons. I always use different XO. 15-22uf. 10-40R.


----------



## musmecca

Wgibson said:


> I would try venting the CI and use something between 0.2 and 0.6mm ID.
> 
> This sonion 20x53 is big, like a CI but has some internal damper already so it has good rolloff by itself, smaller tube helps even more.
> 
> Check out these two graphs, I assume venting the CI would have similar results as the 20x53. Vented CI with small diameter tube should give you a good rising slope down to 25hz or so if I were to guess.


Thanks! That was the graphs I remember seeing and I thought the analysis was solid.  I went with the 1mm diameter as it was readily available and I recall you hinting at decreased marginal returns on tubes smaller than 1MM....i.e. didn't really add much to the game below 1MM.  Was i wrong in that assumption? I have not tried venting a CI in this application.....I may try that on my next retrofit.


----------



## mattmatt

piotrus-g said:


> Looking at your sound bores... Instead of extruding parts then creating pipe then creating lofts between pipe and extrudes. Do the extrudes then open sketch, select 3D sketch and do multi point spline - start by snapping end points to extruded profiles then add few more spline points, then go to loft - select profiles of the extrudes and add rails - select spline (for some lofts you might need two splines for perfect loft), adjust computing options to achieve smoother transitions. The effect is smooth single line that you can later easily adjust by moving splines on the sketch.


Holy crap, game changer! Thanks for this. Definitely a game changer. Making some plugs for my girlfriend right now and wanted to play with it before printing. Tho this is imported to meshmixer for better viewing!


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Wgibson said:


> I would try venting the CI and use something between 0.2 and 0.6mm ID.
> 
> This sonion 20x53 is big, like a CI but has some internal damper already so it has good rolloff by itself, smaller tube helps even more.
> 
> Check out these two graphs, I assume venting the CI would have similar results as the 20x53. Vented CI with small diameter tube should give you a good rising slope down to 25hz or so if I were to guess.


i guess its the CI with vent(sonion 20x53) or i maybe wrong, but there is a CI like driver with back vent in sonion catalouge which does take bass gods DD  down to its knees


----------



## piotrus-g

mattmatt said:


> Holy crap, game changer! Thanks for this. Definitely a game changer. Making some plugs for my girlfriend right now and wanted to play with it before printing. Tho this is imported to meshmixer for better viewing!


Glad to hear it. Enjoy bro


----------



## Wgibson (Jul 25, 2021)

musmecca said:


> Thanks! That was the graphs I remember seeing and I thought the analysis was solid.  I went with the 1mm diameter as it was readily available and I recall you hinting at decreased marginal returns on tubes smaller than 1MM....i.e. didn't really add much to the game below 1MM.  Was i wrong in that assumption? I have not tried venting a CI in this application.....I may try that on my next retrofit.



I'd say 0.4mm ID is a realistic minimum, or use a short piece of 0.2mm inserted at the end kind of like a filter, but just using 0.2mm tube with any appreciable length starts to have db loss even at 20hz.

(Edit: haven't made a hybrid yet so if you couldn't tell, I'm very interested in getting BAs to do sub bass.)


----------



## swtnate

swtnate said:


> First post but MAN, this has been an INVALUABLE resource.  Ohhhhh, the amount of learning and investment to learning this industry.  Im all in!  From lab equipment, to drivers, and beyond.  So, I thought Id pay a little bit of it back.  Theres been many posts about hydrocolloid.  One thing that I love about is how replaceable it is.  One thing I hate about it is how EXPENSIVE it can be.  6kg of Egger is over $200 and Krystalloid is a bit better but not as forgiving and the dreve lacks tinsel strength upon impression removal.  Ive gone through countless hours figuring this out and gave up no less than 5 times.  Until, I read the Krystalloid MSDS.  While this doesnt give the recipe, upon further reading on the effects Agar reacting with ethylene glycol, I had another starting point.  I finally recreated, in my opinion, an improved Krystalloid.  This is still reversable.  All the items can be purchased from Amazon or from a chemistry supply house.  One thing is imperative to have, and that is a reliable food/ gram scale.
> 
> this is the recipe for a 500g batch.
> 125g - propylene gycol
> ...


UPDATE:
1) This formulation will not cause bacteria growth and mold like some agar recipes.  So, it is VERY stable
2) This formulation wheeps (the watery discharge from all colloid negative molds) WAAAAY less than all the colloids I've purchased.  Aside from the niceFit.  However, the Nicefit formulation is SUPER thick and VERY difficult to evacuate air if you slightly over-heat the mixture.
3) I'm on my 5th reuse.  So, you can continually re-use this stuff.  HOWEVER, if you accidentally boil it its just as non-forgiving as the other colloids.
4) The first 2 molds created from the virgin mixture were the absolute clearest and cleanest colloid I've ever used.  Not to be taken as a brag.  It just shows the value in using FRESH products.
5) Don't try melt out more than 2 molds worth of colloid in the microwave.  There's no way to uniformly distribute heat throughout the whole mixture.  I CONSTANTLY get over-heated material if I try to do too much at one time.

In closing, this recipe is REALLY quite strong.  It performs identically to other market level colloids at a quarter or less of the price.  Just in case you were wondering, be careful when experimenting, to not add TOO much agar.  If you increase the agar you will also increase opacity and the colloid becomes to crumbly.  Food for thought.  Never though I would ever post a review of my recipe. lol.  But, here we are.  HAPPY BUILDING!!


----------



## kkugel

swtnate said:


> UPDATE:
> 1) This formulation will not cause bacteria growth and mold like some agar recipes.  So, it is VERY stable
> 2) This formulation wheeps (the watery discharge from all colloid negative molds) WAAAAY less than all the colloids I've purchased.  Aside from the niceFit.  However, the Nicefit formulation is SUPER thick and VERY difficult to evacuate air if you slightly over-heat the mixture.
> 3) I'm on my 5th reuse.  So, you can continually re-use this stuff.  HOWEVER, if you accidentally boil it its just as non-forgiving as the other colloids.
> ...


Very valuable post, thank you!


----------



## Jerry-S

Wow! Thanks everyone for all the helpful responses.
The reason I had decided on using DD or 38D1XJ was because I really don't want it to interfere with the rest of the tonal balance.
Just a subbass boost. 
I know that the 38D1XJ is the best in the game atm. My only real concern with using it would be its significant SPL output and that may be too much and drown everything else out.
Seems like there has been a lot more experimentation with the Cl and that may be a safer option as I don't have a measurement rig so fine tuning will be difficult and pretty much done by ear.


----------



## kkugel

Jerry-S said:


> Wow! Thanks everyone for all the helpful responses.
> The reason I had decided on using DD or 38D1XJ was because I really don't want it to interfere with the rest of the tonal balance.
> Just a subbass boost.
> I know that the 38D1XJ is the best in the game atm. My only real concern with using it would be its significant SPL output and that may be too much and drown everything else out.
> Seems like there has been a lot more experimentation with the Cl and that may be a safer option as I don't have a measurement rig so fine tuning will be difficult and pretty much done by ear.


Put 4.7 ohm series parallel ohm 38D1X, will give you 15dB lower SPL


----------



## Yasser gizouli

I am making my first diy , i wanted to do it with dingle driver first and then hybrid 




This is tsst BA driver , an upside firing driver 

https://m.id.aliexpress.com/item/32...Speaker-For-Knowles-UE-JH-In-Ear-Monitor-IEMs

 I am looking for a shell that suit it best.

This is wooden shell i am going to use for the hybrid , Knowles SR + dynamic driver , any recomended  10 mm dd ?


https://m.id.aliexpress.com/item/10...0gawxkxgcacxq17acbf35f62245052d49176f20&gclid


----------



## swtnate

Yasser gizouli said:


> I am making my first diy , i wanted to do it with dingle driver first and then hybrid
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This what I use
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000443850877.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.37364c4dprZ4y4


----------



## Jonmakauu

I am trying to make my own ciem and stumbled into this forum and I have been doing a lot of research lately. But is there like a beginner's guide or any list on where to buy materials? Like drivers, resins, molds etc? 

And also a quick question, can you reuse ear impressions for multiple ciem builds? Are there any tips to making them last longer? TIA


----------



## Yasser gizouli

swtnate said:


> This what I use
> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000443850877.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.37364c4dprZ4y4


Thanks man, 
What about the shell


----------



## swtnate

Jonmakauu said:


> I am trying to make my own ciem and stumbled into this forum and I have been doing a lot of research lately. But is there like a beginner's guide or any list on where to buy materials? Like drivers, resins, molds etc?
> 
> And also a quick question, can you reuse ear impressions for multiple ciem builds? Are there any tips to making them last longer? TIA


You are looking at it!  All 900 glorious pages.  There is enough information in here for you to not just learn how to do this but to do it REALLY well.


Yasser gizouli said:


> Thanks man,
> What about the shell


All my shells up until this point have been custom to my own ears and to a bunch of other friends and such.  I have 3-4 different universal shells.  None of them are very aesthetically pleasing to me.  Plus, Im so rolled up building customs I havent turned to the universal.  My advice to you, if your just starting out, either snatch up the universal shel available though soundlink OR find a good STL file to print your shell.


----------



## swtnate

kkugel said:


> Put 4.7 ohm series parallel ohm 38D1X, will give you 15dB lower SPL


I've had VERY little real world success placing any component (Resistor of Capacitor) in parallel to the driver.  There just WAY to many variables you now have to compensate far.  Speaking of... How are you solving the phase alignment and the time lag by have such circuitry.  genuinely curious.


----------



## swtnate

Jonmakauu said:


> I am trying to make my own ciem and stumbled into this forum and I have been doing a lot of research lately. But is there like a beginner's guide or any list on where to buy materials? Like drivers, resins, molds etc?
> 
> And also a quick question, can you reuse ear impressions for multiple ciem builds? Are there any tips to making them last longer? TIA


You are looking at it!  All 900 glorious pages.  There is enough information in here for you to not just learn how to do this but to do it REALLY well.


Yasser gizouli said:


> Thanks man,
> What about the shell


All my shells up until this point have been custom to my own ears and to a bunch of other friends and such.  I have 3-4 different universal shells.  None of them are very aesthetically pleasing to me.  Plus, Im so rolled up building customs I havent turned to the universal.  My advice to you, if your just starting out, either snatch up the universal shel available though soundlink OR find a good STL file to print your shell.


----------



## swtnate

swtnate said:


> First post but MAN, this has been an INVALUABLE resource.  Ohhhhh, the amount of learning and investment to learning this industry.  Im all in!  From lab equipment, to drivers, and beyond.  So, I thought Id pay a little bit of it back.  Theres been many posts about hydrocolloid.  One thing that I love about is how replaceable it is.  One thing I hate about it is how EXPENSIVE it can be.  6kg of Egger is over $200 and Krystalloid is a bit better but not as forgiving and the dreve lacks tinsel strength upon impression removal.  Ive gone through countless hours figuring this out and gave up no less than 5 times.  Until, I read the Krystalloid MSDS.  While this doesnt give the recipe, upon further reading on the effects Agar reacting with ethylene glycol, I had another starting point.  I finally recreated, in my opinion, an improved Krystalloid.  This is still reversable.  All the items can be purchased from Amazon or from a chemistry supply house.  One thing is imperative to have, and that is a reliable food/ gram scale.
> 
> this is the recipe for a 500g batch.
> 125g - propylene gycol
> ...








Here are multiple images during a night that was very well spent.


----------



## swtnate

Jerry-S said:


> Wow! Thanks everyone for all the helpful responses.
> The reason I had decided on using DD or 38D1XJ was because I really don't want it to interfere with the rest of the tonal balance.
> Just a subbass boost.
> I know that the 38D1XJ is the best in the game atm. My only real concern with using it would be its significant SPL output and that may be too much and drown everything else out.
> Seems like there has been a lot more experimentation with the Cl and that may be a safer option as I don't have a measurement rig so fine tuning will be difficult and pretty much done by ear.


It IS a great BA driver alone compared to other competitive.  We will gwt there.  God always does what he says he’ll do.


----------



## kkugel

swtnate said:


> I've had VERY little real world success placing any component (Resistor of Capacitor) in parallel to the driver.  There just WAY to many variables you now have to compensate far.  Speaking of... How are you solving the phase alignment and the time lag by have such circuitry.  genuinely curious.


4.7 series and parallel will work 10/10 times. Phase alignment does not matter really, you won't hear it. And time differences can be a good thing


----------



## Yasser gizouli

swtnate said:


> You are looking at it!  All 900 glorious pages.  There is enough information in here for you to not just learn how to do this but to do it REALLY well.
> 
> All my shells up until this point have been custom to my own ears and to a bunch of other friends and such.  I have 3-4 different universal shells.  None of them are very aesthetically pleasing to me.  Plus, Im so rolled up building customs I havent turned to the universal.  My advice to you, if your just starting out, either snatch up the universal shel available though soundlink OR find a good STL file to print your shell.


I want specific shells , i searched they either big or bullet type i want something like kz zs6


----------



## swtnate

Yasser gizouli said:


> I want specific shells , i searched they either big or bullet type i want something like kz zs6


Theres literally no way for me to know what you would want or like. Lol.  And, if you decide to design your own and print it, be prepared.  Theres more engineering than you might think.  My only current use for a universal shell is breadboard tuning by ear.  Sorry I cant help you more.  
I will also add this , because I think its important to say.  This thread is AMAZING.  Theres so much information, techniques, electrical engineering, etc.  my advice is to pull from the wealth of knowledge available to you.  It will be no more or less easier for us find what your looking for than for you to find what youre looking for.


----------



## Yasser gizouli

swtnate said:


> Theres literally no way for me to know what you would want or like. Lol.  And, if you decide to design your own and print it, be prepared.  Theres more engineering than you might think.  My only current use for a universal shell is breadboard tuning by ear.  Sorry I cant help you more.
> I will also add this , because I think its important to say.  This thread is AMAZING.  Theres so much information, techniques, electrical engineering, etc.  my advice is to pull from the wealth of knowledge available to you.  It will be no more or less easier for us find what your looking for than for you to find what youre looking for.


I know what i want , i want help finding a way to use the tsst ba driver which doesnt have a spout only an  upper hole in the driver, i want a shell to exploit it.


----------



## swtnate (Jul 27, 2021)

If anyone is looking for inexpensive SUPER legit solutions to aid when soldering micro components, you are not alone.  Heres a couple to look at.

KOTTO Helping Hands Soldering,... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07MDKXNPC?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share
The issue with most helping hands/ alligator clips is that they CAN damage the drivers.  This set includes sleeves you place over the teeth to prevent damage to sensitive components..

Vastar PCB Circuit Board Holder with Cleaning Cloth https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01HI3VWK...abc_CH549RR8N2GNACCAFHT7?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1

for those of us building networks utilizing PCB’s, this is a GAME CHANGER when coupled with the digital microscope.

Last, but certainly not least: SOLDERING STATIONS
Ive owned a Weller 1010 for about 3 years now.  Great station for beginners just getting started.  The MAJOR draw back to the 1010 is that Weller doesnt provide any type of micro pen OR tips for use with the 1010.  The importance of micro soldering is often dismissed.  Micro tips provide the same temperture of heat but to a primary location.  For example: have you ever tried soldering an estron litz wire to 0603 component?  One side is a breeze.  Get to the other side of the component to solder the next wire and the first wire falls off OR when you lift your pen you carry the component with you. 😂 FOLLOWED INTERNAL RAGE.  Micro tips radiate heat to a significantly smaller footprint.  Meaning, less heat trnasference to other components nearby.  Another game changer.  These are BIGGER ticket gear and not technically essential but, if youre doing this for any longer length of time, all these tools will improve your quality of life.


Weller EC1302B ESD-Safe 20W Micro Soldering Iron for EC, WD and WRS Stations https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0000WTTG...abc_YHF8KWAVN9Z2Y3GNSNCE?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1

Weller WD1M 85w/120v Micro Single Channel Digital Rework Power Unit https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000UMHYD4/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_fabc_3BG4C0Z4CK0103ZYVR6C


----------



## Aldo40

I have  soldering station Weller and fx888
https://www.amazon.fr/gp/aw/d/B00EK7TE2E?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_title

Good station and not expensible


----------



## AMerePerson

I think the common approach for soldering onto driver pads is to use a putty to hold the drivers in place. The most common one I’ve seen is Blu Tack.

@dhruvmeena96 
You mentioned a finale 4 a few years ago and I’m curious if that has any new progress.

I built a finale 2 recently and was wondering if a 38D1XJ would help with the bass. I found an old post that said it would work with a yellow damper but nothing about tube length and damper position.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

AMerePerson said:


> I think the common approach for soldering onto driver pads is to use a putty to hold the drivers in place. The most common one I’ve seen is Blu Tack.
> 
> @dhruvmeena96
> You mentioned a finale 4 a few years ago and I’m curious if that has any new progress.
> ...


Run as long of tube you want 
Just make sure to add yellow to it

Its subbass and the wavelenght are very huge to cancel each other
Just make sure that 38D1XJ doesnt go in mids and you are all right

I want to make build simple thats why no mentioning of tubelenghts

I want more.people to join in the hobby and enjoy sound hahaha


----------



## musmecca

Jonmakauu said:


> I am trying to make my own ciem and stumbled into this forum and I have been doing a lot of research lately. But is there like a beginner's guide or any list on where to buy materials? Like drivers, resins, molds etc?
> 
> And also a quick question, can you reuse ear impressions for multiple ciem builds? Are there any tips to making them last longer? TIA


This is the definitive guide the last time I checked:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/...Jh_bh3fuUBNe2HrQg/edit#heading=h.t2frpipmdu4k


----------



## swtnate (Jul 28, 2021)

AMerePerson said:


> I think the common approach for soldering onto driver pads is to use a putty to hold the drivers in place. The most common one I’ve seen is Blu Tack.
> 
> @dhruvmeena96
> You mentioned a finale 4 a few years ago and I’m curious if that has any new progress.
> ...


I know its used and recommended in every DIY forum dedicated to this subject.  I too used.  I still have it around only as a last ditch effort.  That stuff IS SOOOOOO FRUSTRATING.  If you boot or wrap your drivers itll get stuck on there, leave residue, require clean-up, etc.  you also have to be super mindful to not get it in the sound spout.  Which can be difficult as sometimes you need to position the drivers at a certain angle.  Switching to soft clamp alligator clips or wrapping the driver in a latex tube then clamping has saved so much frustration, clean-up, etc.  when I do use it though, no way I will ever use the blue.  I use the white version from gorilla glue.  Less prone to super sticking and any residue left behind is indistiguishable.


----------



## swtnate

musmecca said:


> This is the definitive guide the last time I checked:
> 
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/...Jh_bh3fuUBNe2HrQg/edit#heading=h.t2frpipmdu4k


Yes.  It is a guide.  For sure!  I used it to get started and its been invaluable to me.  However, some of the philosophies and approach to CIEM sound staging I just dont necessarily approach it from that perspective.  Theres also some things you learn along the way that are just flat out wrong, in my opinion.  I would think of it more as a beginners guide to DIY and not a professional training document, if that makes any sense.


----------



## kkugel

swtnate said:


> I know its used and recommended in every DIY forum dedicated to this subject.  I too used.  I still have it around only as a last ditch effort.  That stuff IS SOOOOOO FRUSTRATING.  If you boot or wrap your drivers itll get stuck on there, leave residue, require clean-up, etc.  you also have to be super mindful to not get it in the sound spout.  Which can be difficult as sometimes you need to position the drivers at a certain angle.  Switching to soft clamp alligator clips or wrapping the driver in a latex tube then clamping has saved so much frustration, clean-up, etc.  when I do use it though, no way I will ever use the blue.  I use the white version from gorilla glue.  Less prone to super sticking and any residue left behind is indistiguishable.


You need to buy brand name blu tack! Had the same experience while using off brand stuff


----------



## kkugel

musmecca said:


> This is the definitive guide the last time I checked:
> 
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/...Jh_bh3fuUBNe2HrQg/edit#heading=h.t2frpipmdu4k


IMO this guide can be improved a lot, it lacks a lot of knowledge about crossovers and doesn't really talk about driver characteristics in detail. There's also a lot of new drivers missing


----------



## kkugel

Btw anyone ever did experiments in expanding or improving soundstage? It is REALLY hard to find any info on this


----------



## Wgibson

kkugel said:


> Btw anyone ever did experiments in expanding or improving soundstage? It is REALLY hard to find any info on this



I'm interested too, I assume that response over 10khz probably has a lot to do with it.


----------



## kkugel

Wgibson said:


> I'm interested too, I assume that response over 10khz probably has a lot to do with it.


Actually I don't think so. I tried a lot of damping, boosting, EQing, tuning and nothing there improves the size. You are right about spatial cues being in that range though.


----------



## Yasser gizouli

Where can i find this type of wire?


----------



## Theodoric Paddlefoot (Jul 29, 2021)

Yasser gizouli said:


> Where can i find this type of wire?


Hey, I found several suppliers of this kind of cable on AliExpress.
You can find them yourself if you search for something like "DIY Headphone Wire" and then search the different stores. Here is one example from the GD-PARTS Audio Store, it has this silver-transparent cable in different diameters from 0.2mm to 6.0mm in the "DIY Cables, Wires" section of the store.

Example Store


----------



## swtnate

Aldo40 said:


> I have  soldering station Weller and fx888
> https://www.amazon.fr/gp/aw/d/B00EK7TE2E?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_title
> 
> Good station and not expensible


I previously had the Weller 1010N, which is equivalent to this model.  It performed quite well over the course of 2 years.  I learned to solder with that unit.  The main issue with it is that Weller doesn’t have a micro sized tip or soldering pencil compatible with that workstation.  One huge plus to having a micro tip is reducing the foot print of the heating element.


----------



## swtnate

Yasser gizouli said:


> Where can i find this type of wire?


The wire in the photograph is not necessarily the wire used in custom IEMs or hearing aids.  The wire shown is most likely a silver stranded AWG 30,32, or 34.  Knowles lists their AWG compatibility on every data/tech sheet.  The type of wire used by virtually the entire industry is specialty wire called litz wire.  The industry standard wire comes from estron.  Yes you can find knock-offs and different varieties all over the internet. 

You can find the AWG 30, 32, or 34 on Amazon super cheap.  BE VERY CAUTIOUS USING THIS WIRE.  I have had solder pads on the drivers pull clean off due to the rigidity of the wire post soldering.  Also, you will need a set of wire snips to remove the casing then you will also need to tin the wire on both ends.  Plus, if you have more than 2 armatures in your build plus a PCB, you will run out of real estate pretty quick.
Id source the litz wire from Soundlink if youre wanting just enough to cover one build.


----------



## Yasser gizouli

Theodoric Paddlefoot said:


> Hey, I found several suppliers of this kind of cable on AliExpress.
> You can find them yourself if you search for something like "DIY Headphone Wire" and then search the different stores. Here is one example from the GD-PARTS Audio Store, it has this silver-transparent cable in different diameters from 0.2mm to 6.0mm in the "DIY Cables, Wires" section of the store.
> 
> Example S





Theodoric Paddlefoot said:


> Hey, I found several suppliers of this kind of cable on AliExpress.
> You can find them yourself if you search for something like "DIY Headphone Wire" and then search the different stores. Here is one example from the GD-PARTS Audio Store, it has this silver-transparent cable in different diameters from 0.2mm to 6.0mm in the "DIY Cables, Wires" section of the store.
> 
> Example Store


What is the diameter for the iem driver wiring?


----------



## Yasser gizouli

swtnate said:


> The wire in the photograph is not necessarily the wire used in custom IEMs or hearing aids.  The wire shown is most likely a silver stranded AWG 30,32, or 34.  Knowles lists their AWG compatibility on every data/tech sheet.  The type of wire used by virtually the entire industry is specialty wire called litz wire.  The industry standard wire comes from estron.  Yes you can find knock-offs and different varieties all over the internet.
> 
> You can find the AWG 30, 32, or 34 on Amazon super cheap.  BE VERY CAUTIOUS USING THIS WIRE.  I have had solder pads on the drivers pull clean off due to the rigidity of the wire post soldering.  Also, you will need a set of wire snips to remove the casing then you will also need to tin the wire on both ends.  Plus, if you have more than 2 armatures in your build plus a PCB, you will run out of real estate pretty quick.
> Id source the litz wire from Soundlink if youre wanting just enough to cover one build.


Thats alot of info , my build is hybrid , so there is no musch wiring .


I found this 
https://m.id.aliexpress.com/item/4000318231657.html?trace=wwwdetail2mobilesitedetail

What the one you recomend?


----------



## Theodoric Paddlefoot

Yasser gizouli said:


> What is the diameter for the iem driver wiring?


Here are two examples for classic IEM wires.
The first link is for 10pcs pre-tinned 0.3mm litz from SoundLink and the second one is 100pcs pre-tinned litz 0.5mm from another store.
10pcs 0.3mm
100pcs 0.5mm


----------



## Wgibson

In a pinch, you can try cutting open a cheap 3.5mm heqdphone cable and see how that wire looks. Diameter may be a little big, but should be flexible enough to work.


----------



## Jonmakauu

Looking to make my first ciem but I am doing research before I actually trying it and I have a few questions: 

•Is it ok to use only a single dynamic driver with no balanced armature? 
•If it is possible, how do you place it inside the shell? 
•What are the downsides compared to using BA drivers? For my first build, I'm thinking of using a 10mm dynamic driver.

TIA!


----------



## Yasser gizouli

Theodoric Paddlefoot said:


> Here are two examples for classic IEM wires.
> The first link is for 10pcs pre-tinned 0.3mm litz from SoundLink and the second one is 100pcs pre-tinned litz 0.5mm from another store.
> 10pcs 0.3mm
> 100pcs 0.5mm


I want to buy the silver one , which diameter should i go for?


----------



## Yasser gizouli

It doesnt give me  a clear meaurement


Wgibson said:


> In a pinch, you can try cutting open a cheap 3.5mm heqdphone cable and see how that wire looks. Diameter may be a little big, but should be flexible enough to work.


----------



## Aldo40 (Jul 29, 2021)

kkugel said:


> Au fait, quelqu'un a-t-il déjà fait des expériences pour étendre ou améliorer la scène sonore ? C'est VRAIMENT difficile de trouver des infos à ce sujet


Je pense que pour avoir une scène sonore juste, cela nécessite une phase optimale entre les drivers, ce n'est pas facile à expliquer en détail. Personnellement je travaille en mode déphasé pour trouver les contraires puis revenir en phase normale, c'est un jeu de ping pong, chacun a sa méthode mais c'est vrai que ce n'est pas facile à trouver pour les personnes qui en savent moins sur ce paramètre


----------



## Theodoric Paddlefoot

Yasser gizouli said:


> I want to buy the silver one , which diameter should i go for?


Since I haven't worked with these wires I can't really recommend you one. I personally would go for the smallest version, AWG 26 with 0.8mm outer diameter.


----------



## kkugel

Aldo40 said:


> Je pense que pour avoir une scène sonore juste, cela nécessite une phase optimale entre les drivers, ce n'est pas facile à expliquer en détail. Personnellement je travaille en mode déphasé pour trouver les contraires puis revenir en phase normale, c'est un jeu de ping pong, chacun a sa méthode mais c'est vrai que ce n'est pas facile à trouver pour les personnes qui en savent moins sur ce paramètre


Now I gotta dig out my french from school


----------



## kkugel

Aldo40 said:


> Je pense que pour avoir une scène sonore juste, cela nécessite une phase optimale entre les drivers, ce n'est pas facile à expliquer en détail. Personnellement je travaille en mode déphasé pour trouver les contraires puis revenir en phase normale, c'est un jeu de ping pong, chacun a sa méthode mais c'est vrai que ce n'est pas facile à trouver pour les personnes qui en savent moins sur ce paramètre


Actually I'm tuning a single driver with linear phase, not sure how to improve phase further😄


----------



## Aldo40

kkugel said:


> Now I gotta dig out my french from school


Excuse me,
I think that to have a fair sound scene, it requires an optimal phase between the drivers, it is not easy to explain in detail. Personally I work in out of phase mode to find the opposites then return to normal phase, it is a game of ping pong, everyone has his method but it is true that it is not easy to find for people who know less about this parameter


----------



## Aldo40 (Jul 30, 2021)

.


----------



## Aldo40

kkugel said:


> Actually I'm tuning a single driver with linear phase, not sure how to improve phase further😄


But you still set the phase between two drivers anyway, you don’t put capacitors at random


----------



## Yasser gizouli

Theodoric Paddlefoot said:


> Since I haven't worked with these wires I can't really recommend you one. I personally would go for the smallest version, AWG 26 with 0.8mm outer diameter.


Think i will try that, thanx


----------



## Aldo40

Theodoric Paddlefoot said:


> Here are two examples for classic IEM wires.
> The first link is for 10pcs pre-tinned 0.3mm litz from SoundLink and the second one is 100pcs pre-tinned litz 0.5mm from another store.
> 10pcs 0.3mm
> 100pcs 0.5mm


I have already had these wires, they are rather rigid you have to pay attention to the welding stud of the drivers, personally I prefer to use the estron wire of SoundLink, you can double them by twisting them and it remains very flexible


----------



## Yasser gizouli

Ipx / t2 female connectors where can i find them?


----------



## Theodoric Paddlefoot

Aldo40 said:


> I have already had these wires, they are rather rigid you have to pay attention to the welding stud of the drivers, personally I prefer to use the estron wire of SoundLink, you can double them by twisting them and it remains very flexible


You are right, they do get rigid after soldering. I use to pre kink them before soldering, so that I wouldn't have to apply any force to the soldering area when putting them in place in the shell. That works for me, but I'll try out your wire suggestion too.


----------



## swtnate

I have read and re-read through MOST of this whole thread.  Im still searching for this answer… How do you mark your tubing for proper length?  Do you use a sharpie marker? Or something else that wont rub off?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

swtnate said:


> I have read and re-read through MOST of this whole thread.  Im still searching for this answer… How do you mark your tubing for proper length?  Do you use a sharpie marker? Or something else that wont rub off?


Scale is your friend
Plus you can do any style which suites you
You can even print tubes with flexible resin

Creativity and side thinking

I use to use scale and some BA measurement in pdf for spout lenght from where i calculate my tube lenght
I scratch tube a bit to be visible in direct light bouncing of it

Some use marker, sharpie etc

Some just print the tube


----------



## swtnate

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Scale is your friend
> Plus you can do any style which suites you
> You can even print tubes with flexible resin
> 
> ...


Like, resin print the tube?? Or, like soft silicone print the tube? If its resin printed, the FR would be different than the PVC tubing…. Interesting though.


----------



## Jodok

Hey dhruvmeena ,
at first I want to thank you for the work you put in this thread. After reading it I think the best thing for me would be to follow a design rather than experimenting. In the past I already built an iem in an universal shell with just a RAB driver but as am older now and I think my ears won't change too much, I want to try building a ciem and for that use a more complex driver arrangement. Sadly I didn't find a way to get the Bellsing 6 driver so I choose another design I liked to build, even if it's a little harder. I have a few questions for your MASM Renaissance experimental Design you mentioned a while ago:



dhruvmeena96 said:


> It works flawlessly if you make the GK dual spot share same 2mm tube
> 
> ...
> 
> ...



So for the GK I understand correctly that the tube has to be stretched over the two nozzles and the brown damper should sit right at the nozzle and the white dampener is supposed to sit between the end of the tube and the brown damper? And do you remember if the electronic components of the Zobel circuit had the same values as shown here https://www.circuit-diagram.org/circuits/4c8ad023 even though the RAB 32063 is a little different than the RAB 32033? Other than that I think the circuit depicted there is the same. 
I hope I don't do anything wrong by asking all those questions here.
Again many thanks go to you for your work and your nice designs.

Moritz


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Jodok said:


> Hey dhruvmeena ,
> at first I want to thank you for the work you put in this thread. After reading it I think the best thing for me would be to follow a design rather than experimenting. In the past I already built an iem in an universal shell with just a RAB driver but as am older now and I think my ears won't change too much, I want to try building a ciem and for that use a more complex driver arrangement. Sadly I didn't find a way to get the Bellsing 6 driver so I choose another design I liked to build, even if it's a little harder. I have a few questions for your MASM Renaissance experimental Design you mentioned a while ago:
> 
> 
> ...


MASM is outdated my friend
try using 38D1XJ and dwfk + swfk setup

but if you really want to make a really nice iem 
use MASM 3 pro design
GQ + RAB


----------



## mattmatt

swtnate said:


> Like, resin print the tube?? Or, like soft silicone print the tube? If its resin printed, the FR would be different than the PVC tubing…. Interesting though.


Moondrop Blessing 2 has an integrated tube design. 

I don't mark mine. I cut them right away on top of a ruler.


----------



## swtnate

mattmatt said:


> Moondrop Blessing 2 has an integrated tube design.
> 
> I don't mark mine. I cut them right away on top of a ruler.


And then try to snake them through the canal?  Some folks have REALLY narrow ear canals and you're lucky to get two tubes let alone a third.  Plus, how would you get it to make a turn to the right or to the left?  Seriously interested.


----------



## mattmatt

swtnate said:


> And then try to snake them through the canal?  Some folks have REALLY narrow ear canals and you're lucky to get two tubes let alone a third.  Plus, how would you get it to make a turn to the right or to the left?  Seriously interested.


Blessing 2 is a universal fit iem. 

You might wanna take a look at lxear maze 4. No tubes at all


----------



## Yasser gizouli

Where can i find the TDK Electrostatic driver used in shuoer tape , and **** mt300


----------



## kkugel (Aug 5, 2021)

@all I might get large quantities of 38D1X, E50, Quad EST in the coming months, and wanted to offer you guys to get those from me then, as I know the struggle in the beginning. I will be buying 100 pcs each(26 for EST) which will cut the price to a bit above half for everything, including EST. If there's enough interest, I can buy earlier. Shipping from here is quite cheap.


----------



## Jodok

dhruvmeena96 said:


> MASM is outdated my friend
> try using 38D1XJ and dwfk + swfk setup
> 
> but if you really want to make a really nice iem
> ...


Would you say Bellsing 6 + Zobel is outdated as well? I'm thinking about just building more Ciems as I have enough fotoplast for a few shells and already bought the parts for the masm renaissance.



kkugel said:


> @all I might get large quantities of 38D1X, E50, Quad EST in the coming months, and wanted to offer you guys to get those from me then, as I know the struggle in the beginning. I will be buying 100 pcs each(26 for EST) which will cut the price to a bit above half for everything, including EST. If there's enough interest, I can buy earlier. Shipping from here is quite cheap.


I'm thinking about getting 4 of the 38D1X ( would be about 40 to 50 euros, right?)


----------



## kkugel

Jodok said:


> Would you say Bellsing 6 + Zobel is outdated as well? I'm thinking about just building more Ciems as I have enough fotoplast for a few shells and already bought the parts for the masm renaissance.
> 
> 
> I'm thinking about getting 4 of the 38D1X ( would be about 40 to 50 euros, right?)


A bit more, but I will either order in a few months if at least 60 pieces are wanted here


----------



## Yasser gizouli

What is model of this driver ?
https://a.aliexpress.com/_mOlYBlN


----------



## Yasser gizouli

Micronics


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Yasser gizouli said:


> Micronics


Its knowles BK top spout
Forgot its name


----------



## kkugel

Anyone ever used a vacuum chamber + pump to get bubbles out of lack3? I struggle to get a clean finish with it, no clue how you guys do it so well! I sand after each layer, pop the bubbles etc etc. and its still messy after 4 layers


----------



## mattmatt

kkugel said:


> Anyone ever used a vacuum chamber + pump to get bubbles out of lack3? I struggle to get a clean finish with it, no clue how you guys do it so well! I sand after each layer, pop the bubbles etc etc. and its still messy after 4 layers


You should only do it once. when you sand the lack 3 and recoat it, it will be blurry a bit. Just practice. I airbrush mine tho.  but with a special formulation.


----------



## Yasser gizouli

Where to find linum t2 female socket?


----------



## kkugel

mattmatt said:


> You should only do it once. when you sand the lack 3 and recoat it, it will be blurry a bit. Just practice. I airbrush mine tho.  but with a special formulation.


Lack 3 is airbrushable? Whaaat


----------



## mattmatt

kkugel said:


> Lack 3 is airbrushable? Whaaat


it's way more expensive tho. JH and other companies airbrush theirs.


----------



## mattmatt

Yasser gizouli said:


> Where to find linum t2 female socket?


Warnertech has them.


----------



## Yasser gizouli

mattmatt said:


> Warnertech has them.


Do they retail?


----------



## mattmatt

Yasser gizouli said:


> Do they retail?


You need to make an account for you to view their stuff


----------



## kkugel

mattmatt said:


> it's way more expensive tho. JH and other companies airbrush theirs.


That doesn't matter, is it bubble free? And what formulation?


----------



## Wgibson

I have some soundlink 3d printed shells, they are unfinished. What's the most accessible way to get them covered with something clear, smooth finish, and ear safe?


----------



## mattmatt

kkugel said:


> That doesn't matter, is it bubble free? And what formulation?


Yep. Level out really good too. It's an in house blend I cannot share, sadly.


----------



## kkugel

mattmatt said:


> Yep. Level out really good too. It's an in house blend I cannot share, sadly.


Ahh alright, your company makes it themselves?


----------



## mattmatt

kkugel said:


> Ahh alright, your company makes it themselves?


Yup. but you can try doing it as is.


----------



## kkugel

mattmatt said:


> Yup. but you can try doing it as is.


I will just ask dreve for what solvent to use and thin it a bit, I think pure Lack will harden in the airbrush gun


----------



## Theodoric Paddlefoot

kkugel said:


> I will just ask dreve for what solvent to use and thin it a bit, I think pure Lack will harden in the airbrush gun


I'd be interested in what Dreve is suggesting. I was thinking of standard resin thinner and after applying it, letting it spin for a few minutes before curing it. But since I have no clue if all chemicals from the thinner would evaporate, I'd rather have someone with knowledge about this kind of stuff pointing us in the right direction. 
Being able to use airbrush to apply the Lack 3 is really tempting.


----------



## mattmatt

kkugel said:


> I will just ask dreve for what solvent to use and thin it a bit, I think pure Lack will harden in the airbrush gun


nah, I do that all the time back then before having a formulation! lack won't cure unless you expose it to UV. It will gum up tho when it's own thinner evaporates like from the thread from it's bottle cap. IPA can wash it tho. Just try it out as is. It works well too.


----------



## mattmatt

Wgibson said:


> I have some soundlink 3d printed shells, they are unfinished. What's the most accessible way to get them covered with something clear, smooth finish, and ear safe?


Dreve lack 3, pro3dure or egger.


----------



## Yasser gizouli

I want stl files for universal iem designs


----------



## mattmatt

Yasser gizouli said:


> I want stl files for universal iem designs


maybe you can ask a bit more politely.


----------



## Theodoric Paddlefoot

Here are some IEM shells from Thingiverse.
#1#2 #3


----------



## Aldo40

..


----------



## Aldo40

mattmatt said:


> maybe you can ask a bit more politely.


Lol


----------



## Yasser gizouli

Theodoric Paddlefoot said:


> Here are some IEM shells from Thingiverse.
> #1#2 #3


I didnt like them


----------



## Yasser gizouli

These were posted once in this thread , i dont know if the stl files have boon posted


----------



## mattmatt

Yasser gizouli said:


> These were posted once in this thread , i dont know if the stl files have boon posted


No STL for this. Pretty sure this were molded from this pair of DIY shells.


----------



## kkugel

Anyone got a trick for increasing HF extension (increasing whole 10khz+ range) while tuning DDs?


----------



## TheLastAurora

So, I have to reshell my BGVP VG4 and add a resistor cause it sucks with most of dacs. Should I get a 29689 and a DD for better bass and midrange?


----------



## Aldo40

For lake 3 varnish, I had already posted a manipulation and personally we do not need daerographe, it is a self-smoothing varnish. I lay two successive coats with a brush, there may be some bubble that we chase with the brush. Then we turn without UV about 10 minutes to soften the varnish and turn on the UV for 2 to 10 minutes depending on the machine you use. I have two machines one with a tube and the other with LEDs. It takes 1 minute to harden with the LED machine but it tends to turn yellow because it burns hard. The a.tube is longer but does not yellow. I guarantee that the finish is smooth is flawless mirror


----------



## kkugel

eunice said:


> I use an umik usb measurement microphone and RoomEqWizard. But I have not found a way to make these waterfall impulse response graphs - they are best to measure soundstage as you can see the impulse response over different frequencies at one glance.


A bit late reply, but what does soundstage look like in waterfall measurements?


----------



## eunice

kkugel said:


> A bit late reply, but what does soundstage look like in waterfall measurements?



The brain determines the position of a sound source by three methods:

1) Timing of the sound arriving at your ear.
Left/Right/Distance is determined by the minute delay between left and right ear (a sound from the left arrives earlier at the left ear) and also between high/low frequencies (higher frequencies travel faster and so they arrive earlier than low frequencies if the sound is coming from far away). 
This method can determine left/right and distance but not up/down or front/back

2) Directional absorption characteristics of your body

Your upper body, your outer ear and inner ear all absorb frequencies different depending on the direction the sound is coming from. Your outer ear filters frequencies coming from behind and reflects (increases) frequencies coming from the front.
This is the main method to determine front/back or top/bottom.

3) Change in sound after tilting your head
If you hear something and want to pinpoint the source you instinctively tilt your head to get a more precise location.

Number 3) is rarely addressed in headphones/IEMs as you would need a head tracker for that and 3D sound information. Maybe that Atmos will develop into something like that in the future. 

Number 2) is very dependent on the body of the listener. Usually binaural setups or digital effects simulate simple body models that are good enough. 
Most music is mixed to be played on speakers, where your body affects the sound as the sound is coming from speakers in front of you. With headphones only your ear influences the sound (which is why most modern headphones have angled drivers) but with IEM you don’t even have that and you have to rely on it being mixed into the music you’re listening to.

So we’re left with number 1), timing accuracy. And that you can see on the waterfall chart (to some extent)


----------



## kkugel (Aug 11, 2021)

eunice said:


> The brain determines the position of a sound source by three methods:
> 
> 1) Timing of the sound arriving at your ear.
> Left/Right/Distance is determined by the minute delay between left and right ear (a sound from the left arrives earlier at the left ear) and also between high/low frequencies (higher frequencies travel faster and so they arrive earlier than low frequencies if the sound is coming from far away).
> ...


Thanks for the thorough answer, but my question was, what does it look like on the waterfall chart😄 There's a lot of ways to set graph borders for display too, besides not knowing what it should look like, idk what range to look at either.


----------



## eunice

kkugel said:


> Thanks for the thorough answer, but my question was, what does it look like on the waterfall chart😄 There's a lot of ways to set graph borders for display too, besides not knowing what it should look like, idk what range to look at either.


Sorry for rambling then 
I think the presence region is said to be between 4khz and 6khz, but I don’t know what this is based on. I think everything above 1khz is relevant for the sound stage. I look for timing accuracy, meaning the waterfall chart shows similar attack/decay times over a broad frequency range. 

Having a neutral frequency response curve is not very necessary for soundstage. Some headphones (eg Arya) fake soundstage with a double peak in the frequency response at 3khz and 5khz but other than that I think the ear gets used to the frequency response and it’s not that important and more a matter of taste.


----------



## Yasser gizouli

How xlr conectors are wired into the shell


----------



## mattmatt

Yasser gizouli said:


> How xlr conectors are wired into the shell


Japanese DIYers integrate a holder for connectors when they 3D print their shell. You can just cut a slit at the shell and add resin around it and cure it. That will hold the connector in place.


----------



## piotrus-g

Just FYI starting July Fusion 360 integrates Mesh into its environment allowing for all sorts of manipulation including combining mesh with paramteric designs.


----------



## kkugel (Aug 12, 2021)

piotrus-g said:


> Just FYI starting July Fusion 360 integrates Mesh into its environment allowing for all sorts of manipulation including combining mesh with paramteric designs.



Let me say it in the words of my favorite kebap man: Alhamdulilah😂 This is a game changer


----------



## piotrus-g (Aug 12, 2021)

kkugel said:


> Let me say it in the words of my favorite kebap man: Alhamdulilah😂 This is a game changer


Yeah, the best feature is paid though which allows you to automatically convert triangles to solid, so some of the hobbyists might not be able to have access to such streamlined  process


----------



## kkugel

piotrus-g said:


> Yeah, the best feature is paid though which allows you to automatically convert triangles to solid, so some of the hobbyists might not be able to have access to such streamlined  process


You happen to know if its in inventor? I might get one of those


----------



## HugoFi

I have acces to the parametric mesh functions with fusion 360. If someone needs it, feel free to contact. If I have time I might be able to run that on your mesh and send it back so it is easy to work with.


----------



## piotrus-g

kkugel said:


> You happen to know if its in inventor? I might get one of those


No idea man


----------



## Yasser gizouli

mattmatt said:


> Japanese DIYers integrate a holder for connectors when they 3D print their shell. You can just cut a slit at the shell and add resin around it and cure it. That will hold the connector in place.


I mean + and -


----------



## mattmatt

Yasser gizouli said:


> I mean + and -


3 of them are positive, 1 gnd.


----------



## Yasser gizouli

How do i know which one


----------



## mattmatt

Yasser gizouli said:


> How do i know which one


Already posted above. there's a slit on one side so it can only go one way.


----------



## Yasser gizouli

mattmatt said:


> Already posted above. there's a slit on one side so it can only go one way.


I seeee , thanks


----------



## amemisome

Quick question, when connecting the tubing to the drivers do you glue a 2.0mm ID tube directly to a driver or can you use a 1mm ID tube the length of the BA nozzle to connect the two?


----------



## Theodoric Paddlefoot

amemisome said:


> Quick question, when connecting the tubing to the drivers do you glue a 2.0mm ID tube directly to a driver or can you use a 1mm ID tube the length of the BA nozzle to connect the two?


You could stretch the 2mm tube over the driver to avoid getting glue into the nozzle. That's the safest way I'd say. But I just did what you suggested. I've pushed the 1mm connector tube halfway over the nozzle, then applied a little bit of glue into the gap between the connector tube and the BA and pushed the connector tube all the way down. then do basically the same for the 2mm tube. You may need to hold it in place until your glue hardens, because it may slip off the 1mm tube.


----------



## amemisome

Theodoric Paddlefoot said:


> You could stretch the 2mm tube over the driver to avoid getting glue into the nozzle. That's the safest way I'd say. But I just did what you suggested. I've pushed the 1mm connector tube halfway over the nozzle, then applied a little bit of glue into the gap between the connector tube and the BA and pushed the connector tube all the way down. then do basically the same for the 2mm tube. You may need to hold it in place until your glue hardens, because it may slip off the 1mm tube.


Thanks, I'll try to see if I can stretch the tube over the BA. If not I'll first glue the 1mm then put the 2mm over it.


----------



## Jonmakauu

Does anybody know of a uv lacquer besides lack 3? Can't seem to find it anywhere. Aliexpress was my last option but somehow soundlink deleted it and now I am unable to get my hands on it at all


----------



## Wgibson

Jonmakauu said:


> Does anybody know of a uv lacquer besides lack 3? Can't seem to find it anywhere. Aliexpress was my last option but somehow soundlink deleted it and now I am unable to get my hands on it at all



I just bought some today from fusionet.com (in the US). Will let you know when it gets here.


----------



## MythicalEon (Aug 18, 2021)

Jonmakauu said:


> Does anybody know of a uv lacquer besides lack 3? Can't seem to find it anywhere. Aliexpress was my last option but somehow soundlink deleted it and now I am unable to get my hands on it at all


As far as audiology specific lacquers go, there is Egger LP/H Lacquer, Pro3dure L-1, Nicefit Lacquer… I only have the Egger LP/H antibacterial though, so I can’t comment on anything.

Mcear does sell lacquers if you live in that region. As for how I got mine, it’s a bit unconventional so I won’t say. Hopefully the list helps you find something though.

Edit: SureHold lacquer cures with an inhibition layer and is unsuitable, thanks @mattmatt


----------



## mattmatt

MythicalEon said:


> As far as audiology specific lacquers go, there is Egger LP/H Lacquer, Pro3dure L-1, some SureHold one that I’m unsure about, Nicefit Lacquer… I only have the Egger LP/H antibacterial though, so I can’t comment on anything.
> 
> Mcear does sell lacquers if you live in that region. As for how I got mine, it’s a bit unconventional so I won’t say. Hopefully the list helps you find something though.


A friend told me that SureHold doesn't cure without removing oxygen. It cures with an inhibition layer.


----------



## MythicalEon

mattmatt said:


> A friend told me that SureHold doesn't cure without removing oxygen. It cures with an inhibition layer.


Oof. Thanks for informing, am editing my post.


----------



## amemisome (Aug 18, 2021)

After a lot of issues I've finally made my first DIY set. Thanks to everyone who helped me, it wouldn't have been this good without your help.


Spoiler: Pictures







The CIEMs themselves, I went with recessed 2-pin as that seems to be one that people really like. I still have a lot of skills to work on for future projects, but since it's my first set I'm very happy with them.
I used the tube length (20mm on CI, 13mm on ED) and damper values (green on CI, white on ED) that @tomekk suggested. Right on's crossover was a real life saver too, the tuning is great and it was much easier to use than having to solder the individual crossover components with wires by hand.




I graphed the drivers before and after putting them in the shells, I think I swapped the drivers while putting them in the shells? Oh well it sounds fine and the graphs in REW don't seem to indicate that I flipped the phase around.





Spoiler: Impressions so far



Bass digs deep but lacks authority compared to a dynamic, handles EQ well enough so it can be very enjoyable without too much effort.
Mids without EQ are meh, but after slightly increasing the 1000~2000Hz range it sounds very good.
Treble isn't the smoothest I've heard but it's not really harsh or sibilant either, T2's and KZ's are considerably worse.
Soundstage has decent width given the deep insertion fit this has, height was surprisingly acceptable as well, depth was lacking though.
Imaging is very smooth within the soundstage, the middle could be a little more precise but it's honestly better than I had expected.
Instrument separation is the best I've heard, not that that's saying much with how little audio equipment I've heard but for me that's pretty exciting.


For now I'll be taking a break from DIY stuff. Once I want to make something new I'll probably try RAB-P first, to work on my skills a bit more before getting more expensive drivers. After that maybe Sonion 38 + 2389D, I'm really interested to see how much better that would be given that I'm already very happy with this set.


----------



## gregeagle (Aug 18, 2021)

Hey guys… for Share…
Tried an old Design for Guitar friend…changed it a bit…
Knowles CI22955 1mmID x20mm 10ohm, orange

Knowles ED29689 2mmIDx15mm, 2x2,2uf parallel , green @end

Knowles RAD-33518-P183 0,47uf, Kombi Tube with ED, reverse Pol!

sounds goods to me…. In some songs snare drum hits hard….

FR IS ON

cheers guys!!!


----------



## dnspics

gregeagle said:


> Hey guys… for Share…
> Tried an old Design for Guitar friend…changed it a bit…
> Knowles CI22955 1mmID x20mm 10ohm, orange
> 
> ...


How did you get the logo to look so nice?


----------



## Theodoric Paddlefoot

Hey everyone!
I'm revisiting my old MASM build, which was unfortunately based off of an older schematic and not the MASM 3 Pro one.
I've already fixed the tubing and dampers and wanted to add a 38D1XJ for that extra bass. So far so good one might think.
What's the best approach to intensify the bass with the 38D1XJ? I already applied an LPad with 4.7 ohm series parallel and it kinda gets there but colours the mids too much.
Here are some measurements for better understanding. I also have impedance measurements ready if needed.
light grey -> 38D1XJ
dark grey -> 38D1XJ with LPad
teal -> all three BAs together
yellow -> only the GQ 30783 and the RAB 32033
red -> a little PEQ applied just to have a picture of how it should look like


----------



## Petrichor DE

Yasser gizouli said:


> These were posted once in this thread , i dont know if the stl files have boon posted


Beginner here, 
where can I get this kind of beautiful wires?


----------



## Wgibson

Theodoric Paddlefoot said:


> Hey everyone!
> I'm revisiting my old MASM build, which was unfortunately based off of an older schematic and not the MASM 3 Pro one.
> I've already fixed the tubing and dampers and wanted to add a 38D1XJ for that extra bass. So far so good one might think.
> What's the best approach to intensify the bass with the 38D1XJ? I already applied an LPad with 4.7 ohm series parallel and it kinda gets there but colours the mids too much.
> ...



What are your constraints?

I'd lose the L-pad, use a small (0.3-0.6mm ID) and/or heavier dampers.

Put the 38 in series with everything else (after it) and use a parallel cap to 38 as a low pass. Big cap value, shoot for 50ish hz low pass.

If the 38 isn't loud enough, use a resistor parallel with the rest of the circuit, but series with the 38.

That is basically what I did on my 4BA with the switches, with good results.

38 is low passed which eliminates/ hides its impedance. Parallel resistor to the rest of the circuit limits its impedance rise.

This is the only functional electronic RC (no inductor) low pass strategy I'm aware of (doesn't affect other drivers.)


----------



## MythicalEon

Petrichor DE said:


> Beginner here,
> where can I get this kind of beautiful wires?


If you’re talking about the internal wires, those are litz wires, where you could buy in aliexpress, Taobao, etc.

If you’re talking about the cable, it’s some SPC cable, similar to what Penon Audio sells.


----------



## Theodoric Paddlefoot

Wgibson said:


> What are your constraints?
> 
> I'd lose the L-pad, use a small (0.3-0.6mm ID) and/or heavier dampers.
> 
> ...


That sounds like a plan. I'm already on a 1mm ID tube with 3.2cm length on the 38 and would have to order smaller ID ones so I think I'll keep that untouched for now. 

Thanks a lot, I'll work on it today.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Theodoric Paddlefoot said:


> Hey everyone!
> I'm revisiting my old MASM build, which was unfortunately based off of an older schematic and not the MASM 3 Pro one.
> I've already fixed the tubing and dampers and wanted to add a 38D1XJ for that extra bass. So far so good one might think.
> What's the best approach to intensify the bass with the 38D1XJ? I already applied an LPad with 4.7 ohm series parallel and it kinda gets there but colours the mids too much.
> ...


add 1000uF lowpass to 38D1XJ in series - and also add one yellow damper


----------



## gregeagle

dnspics said:


> How did you get the logo to look so nice?


Readily ordered lazercut Logo ordered from AliExpress!!
Here  is the link
https://a.aliexpress.com/_mO0RGoT

happy building…
Greg


----------



## dnspics

gregeagle said:


> Readily ordered lazercut Logo ordered from AliExpress!!
> Here  is the link
> https://a.aliexpress.com/_mO0RGoT
> 
> ...


Trank you!


----------



## piotrus-g

dhruvmeena96 said:


> add 1000uF lowpass to 38D1XJ in series - and also add one yellow damper


One "0" too much I think haha


----------



## Wgibson

Theodoric Paddlefoot said:


> That sounds like a plan. I'm already on a 1mm ID tube with 3.2cm length on the 38 and would have to order smaller ID ones so I think I'll keep that untouched for now.
> 
> Thanks a lot, I'll work on it today.



Find some wire insulation that is a tight fit ro the 1mm tube, and use it like you would a damper, strip the wire and put a short section of insulation in the 1mm tube.


----------



## Wgibson

piotrus-g said:


> One "0" too much I think haha



Maybe, maybe not... I used 100 and 300uf (switchable). I posted an ebay link (no affiliation) to some 100uf 0805 murata ceramic caps, 100 for 10 bucks, still active now.


----------



## mattmatt (Aug 19, 2021)

Wgibson said:


> Maybe, maybe not... I used 100 and 300uf (switchable). I posted an ebay link (no affiliation) to some 100uf 0805 murata ceramic caps, 100 for 10 bucks, still active now.


I think because it's typed in 1000uf


----------



## piotrus-g

Wgibson said:


> Maybe, maybe not... I used 100 and 300uf (switchable). I posted an ebay link (no affiliation) to some 100uf 0805 murata ceramic caps, 100 for 10 bucks, still active now.


1000uF + 10 Ohm LPF that's a 15Hz cut off and insane drop in power on the rest of the circuit, sooo.... not to mention the price... For the IEM applications I could only find tantalums with 1000uF - they are between €3-4.8 each lol and the size is also pretty ridiculous 7x4x4mm so roughly around the size of ED driver hahah


----------



## Theodoric Paddlefoot

piotrus-g said:


> 1000uF + 10 Ohm LPF that's a 15Hz cut off and insane drop in power on the rest of the circuit, sooo.... not to mention the price... For the IEM applications I could only find tantalums with 1000uF - they are between €3-4.8 each lol and the size is also pretty ridiculous 7x4x4mm so roughly around the size of ED driver hahah


I tried the 1000uF with 10 Ohm and the FR looked like it was tilted 45 degrees clockwise


----------



## Theodoric Paddlefoot

dhruvmeena96 said:


> add 1000uF lowpass to 38D1XJ in series - and also add one yellow damper


3.2cm 1mm ID tube, yellow damper @16mm, 100uF + 10 ohm Lpad - looks quite good, maybe a little bit too much sub bass? idk, have to listen to this later today and then decide. I'm definitely excited now!


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Aug 19, 2021)

piotrus-g said:


> One "0" too much I think haha


no
its right

nowadays, i prefer to go overboard just to get that nice bass shelf

the bass was fine, if someone want extra oomph, i get rid of woofer damper(sometime i keep it though) and just do overboard 1000uF parallel

but yeah, 100uF is fine


also, its for the memes


----------



## Wgibson

Theodoric Paddlefoot said:


> 3.2cm 1mm ID tube, yellow damper @16mm, 100uF + 10 ohm Lpad - looks quite good, maybe a little bit too much sub bass? idk, have to listen to this later today and then decide. I'm definitely excited now!



That curve looks great, below 100hz you should be fine with a couple db more than your pinna peak and still sound balanced enough.

You have a wiring schematic?


----------



## Theodoric Paddlefoot

Wgibson said:


> That curve looks great, below 100hz you should be fine with a couple db more than your pinna peak and still sound balanced enough.
> 
> You have a wiring schematic?


That sounds promising. I couldn't hear it yet because I'm still trying to finish a modified shell in Fusion 360 so that I can fit the long 32mm tubing for the 38. I'm getting there, slowly.  
Here is the schematic, it's basically just the MASM 3 Pro with the 38 added as described. The tubes from the GQ and the RAB are a few mm longer than they'll be in the end, which I noted on the schematic in red. Everything is still on the measuring table. I'm calling it the MASM 5 A (for amateur ^^).


----------



## gregeagle

Theodoric Paddlefoot said:


> That sounds promising. I couldn't hear it yet because I'm still trying to finish a modified shell in Fusion 360 so that I can fit the long 32mm tubing for the 38. I'm getting there, slowly.
> Here is the schematic, it's basically just the MASM 3 Pro with the 38 added as described. The tubes from the GQ and the RAB are a few mm longer than they'll be in the end, which I noted on the schematic in red. Everything is still on the measuring table. I'm calling it the MASM 5 A (for amateur ^^).


Bass Would increase even more when closed shell… am I right!!!! LOVE IT… mhmmm


----------



## musmecca

Theodoric Paddlefoot said:


> That sounds promising. I couldn't hear it yet because I'm still trying to finish a modified shell in Fusion 360 so that I can fit the long 32mm tubing for the 38. I'm getting there, slowly.
> Here is the schematic, it's basically just the MASM 3 Pro with the 38 added as described. The tubes from the GQ and the RAB are a few mm longer than they'll be in the end, which I noted on the schematic in red. Everything is still on the measuring table. I'm calling it the MASM 5 A (for amateur ^^).


Looks great! Can't wait to make this one.


----------



## Aldo40

gregeagle said:


> Bass Would increase even more when closed shell… am I right!!!! LOVE IT… mhmmm


not realy


----------



## Wgibson

Well, I ordered an anycubic photon zero for $99 shipped, so I guess I'll start figuring out 3d resin printing. Probably start with small basic models, like DD to tube adapters, or multi BA to tube adapters. Wish me luck. Anyone have some simple models like that already made?


----------



## mattmatt

Wgibson said:


> Well, I ordered an anycubic photon zero for $99 shipped, so I guess I'll start figuring out 3d resin printing. Probably start with small basic models, like DD to tube adapters, or multi BA to tube adapters. Wish me luck. Anyone have some simple models like that already made?


I have modeled some shells for different folks here. I can share em if you'd like.


----------



## swtnate

ALRIGHT! Divisive question time... What, in your opinion as a custom IEM builder, is the ideal strategy for securely mounting / assembling smd components within the shell? (ie PCB's, free float them, glued to acrylic, glued pcb to interior of the shell, soldiering them directly to the connector, soldering them to the driver itself, etc.)


----------



## mattmatt

swtnate said:


> ALRIGHT! Divisive question time... What, in your opinion as a custom IEM builder, is the ideal strategy for securely mounting / assembling smd components within the shell? (ie PCB's, free float them, glued to acrylic, glued pcb to interior of the shell, soldiering them directly to the connector, soldering them to the driver itself, etc.)


I do soldering to the socket, and in between wires then attached to the shell. I stopped soldering them directly to the driver.


----------



## Theodoric Paddlefoot

mattmatt said:


> I have modeled some shells for different folks here. I can share em if you'd like.


Ah so I guess this shell from Thingiverse is from you? It's the one I'm using right now and it's great. I, too, would be interested in another design from you, because I'm not really capable of creating one on my own as of now. I was able to add a socket for a 0.78mm plug to your design yesterday. These 3D printers are such a nice tool to work with.


----------



## mattmatt

Theodoric Paddlefoot said:


> Ah so I guess this shell from Thingiverse is from you? It's the one I'm using right now and it's great. I, too, would be interested in another design from you, because I'm not really capable of creating one on my own as of now. I was able to add a socket for a 0.78mm plug to your design yesterday. These 3D printers are such a nice tool to work with.


Yup! That's mine! How do you like them? Isn't it too small for your builds? 

I'll try too look for the other stuff I made. Here's also one I made.

Lemme know if you guys want it.


----------



## kkugel

Wgibson said:


> Well, I ordered an anycubic photon zero for $99 shipped, so I guess I'll start figuring out 3d resin printing. Probably start with small basic models, like DD to tube adapters, or multi BA to tube adapters. Wish me luck. Anyone have some simple models like that already made?


Get nfep film my friend, makes your life easier


----------



## kkugel

Btw I have a shitton of premium 2 pins if anyone needs some. I get them bulk at a better price than soundlink


----------



## Theodoric Paddlefoot

mattmatt said:


> Yup! That's mine! How do you like them? Isn't it too small for your builds?
> 
> I'll try too look for the other stuff I made. Here's also one I made.
> 
> Lemme know if you guys want it.


It's a very good shell. I can fit three BAs easily, while two of them are on the bigger side. I do have to arrange everything beforehand and put a bit of thought into the BA placement though. For example, my 38D1XJ will be on the bottom, facing away from the nozzle. The tube will make a 90° turn in total, so that I can fit a longer one, about 32mm in length. 
Maybe the best thing is the diameter of the nozzle. It fits 2x 2mm ID tube and a 1mm ID tube quite nicely! That's such a relief from the Soundlink ones.
That design of yours looks like it has a bit more space inside? I want it please. ^^


----------



## Wgibson

I am definitely interested in trying out some of these models


----------



## Theodoric Paddlefoot

3D printers are amazing. I recently got the Anycubic Photon Mono and it's such a handy tool! There is only a tiny bit of fine tuning left and I can finally assemble my first 3D printed IEM. 
The canal at the bottom is helpful to release the stress on the connection from the BA to the tube and makes sure that the tube never gets kinked. The 0.78mm socket is a really tight fit. I'm all in all more than happy with this outcome. This printer gets an A+ from me.


----------



## kkugel

Theodoric Paddlefoot said:


> 3D printers are amazing. I recently got the Anycubic Photon Mono and it's such a handy tool! There is only a tiny bit of fine tuning left and I can finally assemble my first 3D printed IEM.
> The canal at the bottom is helpful to release the stress on the connection from the BA to the tube and makes sure that the tube never gets kinked. The 0.78mm socket is a really tight fit. I'm all in all more than happy with this outcome. This printer gets an A+ from me.


What resin do you use? Looks super clean. I'm using Siraya BLU for toughness but might switch again, as it is unnecessary too tough...long story short: I glued a driver in I needed back and ended up dremeling it open after cracking it open with driving my car over it failed lmao. Even the Dremel needed quite some time to get through, I used a diamond tool...


----------



## pbui44 (Aug 21, 2021)

Theodoric Paddlefoot said:


> 3D printers are amazing. I recently got the Anycubic Photon Mono and it's such a handy tool! There is only a tiny bit of fine tuning left and I can finally assemble my first 3D printed IEM.
> The canal at the bottom is helpful to release the stress on the connection from the BA to the tube and makes sure that the tube never gets kinked. The 0.78mm socket is a really tight fit. I'm all in all more than happy with this outcome. This printer gets an A+ from me.



Wow...you should put in a 5mm woofer for bass, 3 BAs for L-M-H, 2 Piezo-electric drivers for Dog-Highs and Alien-Highs, and fused 7mm-diameter-planar-magnetic-and-electrostatic-wafer-driver to bring everything altogether.


----------



## Theodoric Paddlefoot

kkugel said:


> What resin do you use? Looks super clean. I'm using Siraya BLU for toughness but might switch again, as it is unnecessary too tough...long story short: I glued a driver in I needed back and ended up dremeling it open after cracking it open with driving my car over it failed lmao. Even the Dremel needed quite some time to get through, I used a diamond tool...


It's just Elegoo Standard Photopolymer Resin and it's definitely not the toughest. For a shell though it's perfectly fine. Your resin sounds amazing for other projects, I'm putting it on my list. That and some diamond tools I guess. ^^ 



pbui44 said:


> Wow...you should put in a 5mm woofer for bass, 3 BAs for L-M-H, 2 Piezo-electric drivers for Dog-Highs and Alien-Highs, and fused 7mm-diameter-planar-magnetic-and-electrostatic-wafer-driver to bring everything altogether.


That might be a little bit too crowded in the shell. I'd have to extend the shell quite a bit to fit all that!


----------



## kkugel

Same Chamber design, same dampers. Pinna peaks so differently, it's really bad. Anyone know a solution? It's a planar so DD knowledge is applicable, it's just way more sensitive


----------



## Aldo40

kkugel said:


> Same Chamber design, same dampers. Pinna peaks so differently, it's really bad. Anyone know a solution? It's a planar so DD knowledge is applicable, it's just way more sensitive


What’s your driver config?


----------



## Wgibson

@kkugel I couldn't use dampers, too sensitive. But your ID is too small and pushing the peak left, remove damper and increase ID.


----------



## kkugel

Wgibson said:


> @kkugel I couldn't use dampers, too sensitive. But your ID is too small and pushing the peak left, remove damper and increase ID.


I have a 4.5mm ID equivalent tube already lmao, it's undamped


----------



## kkugel

Aldo40 said:


> What’s your driver config?


Single planar


----------



## Aldo40

kkugel said:


> Single planar


ok so only one driver that matches the response curve you posted above. but I don’t understand because you show two curves, one of which has bass and the other one doesn’t.


----------



## kkugel

Aldo40 said:


> ok so only one driver that matches the response curve you posted above. but I don’t understand because you show two curves, one of which has bass and the other one doesn’t.


Ah sorry, I'm in to deep and forgot to explain: it's 2 earphones of identical build


----------



## Wgibson

kkugel said:


> Ah sorry, I'm in to deep and forgot to explain: it's 2 earphones of identical build



Yeah I didn't catch that, I thought you were trying to move the pinna peak.

The one with sub bass rolloff looks "more sealed" on the back side (and/or you have a leak to atmosphere on the front side.) I had to go fully sealed on the front, there is some driver flex :/


----------



## Aldo40 (Aug 23, 2021)

Aldo40 said:


> ok donc un seul pilote qui correspond à la courbe de réponse que vous avez postée ci-dessus. mais je ne comprends pas parce que vous montrez deux courbes, dont l'une a des basses et l'autre pas.


donc quel est le problème? sur le deuxième graphique ce sont les basses qui sont atténuées ?


----------



## kkugel

Aldo40 said:


> donc quel est le problème? sur le deuxième graphique ce sont les basses qui sont atténuées ?


No, it's the pinna peak I can't shift up in one. It peaking at 1.5khz sounds really bad


----------



## Wgibson

Got my lac 3 from fusionet today, all good, less than a week to get here. Expires Jan 2023. ~$50 shipped in the US for 20ml bottle


----------



## Aldo40

kkugel said:


> No, it's the pinna peak I can't shift up in one. It peaking at 1.5khz sounds really bad


ok but I don’t understand why you didn’t have the bass on the second graph.
the second ear must be well sealed to adjust the rest


----------



## Wgibson

My $99 3D resin printer got here, anyone have some 3D models, stuff like DD to tube adapters, multi BA adapters, shells? Anything really for a test print, googling now.


----------



## kkugel

Wgibson said:


> My $99 3D resin printer got here, anyone have some 3D models, stuff like DD to tube adapters, multi BA adapters, shells? Anything really for a test print, googling now.


99 wow, what did you buy?😂


----------



## Wgibson

Anycubic photon zero. $99.00 to my door in the US. I was surprised it actually showed up, but it did in less than a week, shipped from the US. I figured it was worth a shot.


----------



## Aldo40

Wgibson said:


> My $99 3D resin printer got here, anyone have some 3D models, stuff like DD to tube adapters, multi BA adapters, shells? Anything really for a test print, googling now.


i can give the community universal hulls that I made under 360 fusion. For the adapters the dynamic driver,v it is necessary to make them yourself because it depends on the dimensions, but it is much less complicated to make than the universal shell


----------



## mattmatt

Wgibson said:


> My $99 3D resin printer got here, anyone have some 3D models, stuff like DD to tube adapters, multi BA adapters, shells? Anything really for a test print, googling now.


You can use the one I made in page 883.  There's a link to a thingiverse model.


----------



## Aldo40

renommer shell.txt ----- shell.stl


----------



## Wgibson (Aug 27, 2021)

Is that Sonion E50DT worth getting?

Edit: for another few hours, aliexpress sale is going on, soundlink has some discounts (their prices are already good, so usually no coupons or discounts from them.)

Getting some 2389D, and maybe E50DT... much better than a knowles 30095 or two?


----------



## kkugel

Wgibson said:


> Is that Sonion E50DT worth getting?
> 
> Edit: for another few hours, aliexpress sale is going on, soundlink has some discounts (their prices are already good, so usually no coupons or discounts from them.)
> 
> Getting some 2389D, and maybe E50DT... much better than a knowles 30095 or two?


It is wayyyy better than any knowles tweeter imo. Very very easy to get good extension. How many 2389 you plan on getting?


----------



## Aldo40

The E50 has a nice extension, it must be ammortir, personally I put it a damper of 1500 ohms


----------



## tomekk

Wgibson said:


> aliexpress sale is going on, soundlink has some discounts (their prices are already good, so usually no coupons or discounts from them.)


it seems to me that on aliexpress driver prices have gone up in the last weeks 20-30% so making iems at current rates is an expensive hobby in 2021.


----------



## mattmatt

Anyone can compare the e50 to swfk? 

Graphs would be great.


----------



## kkugel

@mattmatt See how much further E50 extends. You can cut down those 2 early peaks easily electronically and have close to perfect 18k instead of 14k extension


----------



## mattmatt

What are these graphs? Bottom SWFK? 

Problem with Knowles' graphs. Sometimes they aren't standardized. So comparing them them via spec sheets is not comparing them side by side equally. Best way is to measure them side by side from the same jig. 


kkugel said:


> @mattmatt See how much further E50 extends. You can cut down those 2 early peaks easily electronically and have close to perfect 18k instead of 14k extension


----------



## Wgibson

Knowles even has two different styles of "datasheets." One looks like marketing department, one looks like it is from the factory.

IMO neither of them give useful info above 10k, some of them cut off low at 100hz... Always a bit of a question mark until you get a pair and measure on your own setup.


----------



## mattmatt

Wgibson said:


> Knowles even has two different styles of "datasheets." One looks like marketing department, one looks like it is from the factory.
> 
> IMO neither of them give useful info above 10k, some of them cut off low at 100hz... Always a bit of a question mark until you get a pair and measure on your own setup.


Exactly my point. It's hard to compare just by data sheet alone.


----------



## Aldo40 (Aug 29, 2021)

If I have a moment I can measure both. For the Knowles measures I also noticed that they were often different. After there are several SWFK, I must have at my disposal 3 different reference to SWFK the classic 31736 which is not ammorti, the 32254 and the 32255 which are ammorti. Despite the very linear Knowles curve of the 32255, in reality there are still higher peaks than on the manufacturer curves. All this to tell you that nothing will replace our own curves in real situations.
measuring 28uap or series 33 sonion and the builder curves are very different also


----------



## Xymordos

Aldo40 said:


> If I have a moment I can measure both. For the Knowles measures I also noticed that they were often different. After there are several SWFK, I must have at my disposal 3 different reference to SWFK the classic 31736 which is not ammorti, the 32254 and the 32255 which are ammorti. Despite the very linear Knowles curve of the 32255, in reality there are still higher peaks than on the manufacturer curves. All this to tell you that nothing will replace our own curves in real situations.
> measuring 28uap or series 33 sonion and the builder curves are very different also



Ooh would you mind sharing the graphs of the 3 SWFK variants on your rig for comparison?


----------



## Aldo40

Xymordos said:


> Ooh would you mind sharing the graphs of the 3 SWFK variants on your rig for comparison?


yes I can do this in a few days, it will take me a little while I have projects in progress to finish


----------



## piotrus-g (Aug 30, 2021)

Hey there sports fans apparently I have a bit too much time on my hands so here we go
E50DT0005/D vs SWFK-31736
measuring conditions: IEC711 (GRAS) output impedance 0.1 Ohm. 13mmx2ID tubing on each, measured at the entrance of the coupler.
1. E50DT0005 at 95dB level and SWFK measured at the same volume knob position.




2. E50DT0005 at 95dB level and SWFK with _increased_ volume to match 95dB at 1kHz




Hope that helps

PS: it's not recommended to use E50DT0005 below 3-4kHz due to very high distortions around first peak


----------



## kkugel

piotrus-g said:


> Hey there sports fans apparently I have a bit too much time on my hands so here we go
> E50DT0005/D vs SWFK-31736
> measuring conditions: IEC711 (GRAS) output impedance 0.1 Ohm. 13mmx2ID tubing on each, measured at the entrance of the coupler.
> 1. E50DT0005 at 95dB level and SWFK measured at the same volume knob position.
> ...


Thanks for posting man, this cleared things up!


----------



## mattmatt

piotrus-g said:


> Hey there sports fans apparently I have a bit too much time on my hands so here we go
> E50DT0005/D vs SWFK-31736
> measuring conditions: IEC711 (GRAS) output impedance 0.1 Ohm. 13mmx2ID tubing on each, measured at the entrance of the coupler.
> 1. E50DT0005 at 95dB level and SWFK measured at the same volume knob position.
> ...


So this means that SWFK 31736 and E50DT0005 has almost the same extension but the SWFK has better 7k response right? In your opinion, which is the better driver when being paired with other systems? Which one behaves more predictable when implemented with other drivers? 

To me, basing on graphs alone, the SWFK is somewhat better due to a more flexibility with damping but the E50 might do better with a smoother response and attack. 

Thank you so much for the graphs, this is a very valuable lesson when comparing graphs from manufacturers.


----------



## piotrus-g

kkugel said:


> Thanks for posting man, this cleared things up!


No problem man


mattmatt said:


> So this means that SWFK 31736 and E50DT0005 has almost the same extension but the SWFK has better 7k response right? In your opinion, which is the better driver when being paired with other systems? Which one behaves more predictable when implemented with other drivers?
> 
> To me, basing on graphs alone, the SWFK is somewhat better due to a more flexibility with damping but the E50 might do better with a smoother response and attack.
> 
> Thank you so much for the graphs, this is a very valuable lesson when comparing graphs from manufacturers.


Yeah so me personally I'm on SWFK team. If you consider the graphs, E50D offers more output below 4kHz which technically is unusable due to high THD, so that is not an advantage. SWFK is louder at range that matters, you could argue that E50D picks up 14kHz range where SWFK drops but if you play around with tubing you could probably cover that region too with SWFK. Also notice how E50D drops after 18kHz, all Knowles' tweeters somewhat offer better extension than Sonion equivalents.
But then you know... that's me.


----------



## Xymordos

piotrus-g said:


> Hey there sports fans apparently I have a bit too much time on my hands so here we go
> E50DT0005/D vs SWFK-31736
> measuring conditions: IEC711 (GRAS) output impedance 0.1 Ohm. 13mmx2ID tubing on each, measured at the entrance of the coupler.
> 1. E50DT0005 at 95dB level and SWFK measured at the same volume knob position.
> ...



That's really useful, thank you!


----------



## mattmatt

piotrus-g said:


> No problem man
> 
> Yeah so me personally I'm on SWFK team. If you consider the graphs, E50D offers more output below 4kHz which technically is unusable due to high THD, so that is not an advantage. SWFK is louder at range that matters, you could argue that E50D picks up 14kHz range where SWFK drops but if you play around with tubing you could probably cover that region too with SWFK. Also notice how E50D drops after 18kHz, all Knowles' tweeters somewhat offer better extension than Sonion equivalents.
> But then you know... that's me.


With that response, do you find it necessary to apply a high pass? Looks like that can do without one and can just be controlled with resistors and dampers alone.


----------



## Aldo40 (Aug 31, 2021)

.It is better to cut with a capacitor to avoid sending the full band, it protects the tweeter. A resistance or a damper does not control this


----------



## Theodoric Paddlefoot

A little update from my MASM 3 Pro with added 38D1X, the MASM 5 A. 
I've played around a bit with adding tubes right into the shell in Fusion 360 and that worked quite well. In the end though, I've settled with the shell from @Aldo40 from page 885, which I modified to make the nozzle bigger so that I can fit 2x 2mm and 1x 1mm ID tubes quite nicely. 
I've printed with black resin and used Lack 3 for the shell itself and for the faceplate I went with some nail polish with chameleon effect, covered with Lack 3. 







All in all I'm very happy with the result and can recommend adding a 38D1X to the amazing MASM 3 Pro's.


----------



## Aldo40

Good job


----------



## dhruvmeena96

mattmatt said:


> With that response, do you find it necessary to apply a high pass? Looks like that can do without one and can just be controlled with resistors and dampers alone.


Its possible for other drivers
 but for E50
The distortion is at unacceptable ranges as it goes into mids and bass regions

So, it do require a capacitor

Its not like, you cant do this
Its just that
Its not worth it and is actually way more degraded as it plays lower frequency.

Better alternative is ED or 2389 for that sort of applications


----------



## piotrus-g

mattmatt said:


> With that response, do you find it necessary to apply a high pass? Looks like that can do without one and can just be controlled with resistors and dampers alone.


Well you can always experiment and try, I know that there are some manufacturers that go for like 5 drivers w/o crossover so there's real life examples that it could be done, what you can make from such arrangement is completely up to you


----------



## dhruvmeena96

piotrus-g said:


> Well you can always experiment and try, I know that there are some manufacturers that go for like 5 drivers w/o crossover so there's real life examples that it could be done, what you can make from such arrangement is completely up to you




W/o crossover sounds lazy Though(from engineering standpoint)
Hahahahahha

Tried andro gold and was disappointed as it was not resolving enough and campfire tuning is kinda weird for my taste



mattmatt said:


> With that response, do you find it necessary to apply a high pass? Looks like that can do without one and can just be controlled with resistors and dampers alone.


@piotrus-g is actually right, you can try mixing and matching, adjusting tubes and shifting resonances and fill one driver dip with other driver peak and create a decombing smoothening effect.

Good way to exercise tube lenght and tube resonances


----------



## seckarales

Aldo40 said:


> ok I see
> 
> I do everything with meshmixer and it goes very well
> 
> I used meshlab before


How much do you expand scanned impression after you smoothed them out in meshmixer?


----------



## Aldo40

une


seckarales said:


> How much do you expand scanned impression after you smoothed them out in meshmixer?


in general 0.25mm but depending on the people it can go up to 0.50 see + but 0.50 seems pretty good, you have to test


----------



## Wgibson

Theodoric Paddlefoot said:


> A little update from my MASM 3 Pro with added 38D1X, the MASM 5 A.
> I've played around a bit with adding tubes right into the shell in Fusion 360 and that worked quite well. In the end though, I've settled with the shell from @Aldo40 from page 885, which I modified to make the nozzle bigger so that I can fit 2x 2mm and 1x 1mm ID tubes quite nicely.
> I've printed with black resin and used Lack 3 for the shell itself and for the faceplate I went with some nail polish with chameleon effect, covered with Lack 3.
> 
> ...



Wow, that is professional level. Would love that shell file if you are willing and able to share it


----------



## mattmatt

piotrus-g said:


> Well you can always experiment and try, I know that there are some manufacturers that go for like 5 drivers w/o crossover so there's real life examples that it could be done, what you can make from such arrangement is completely up to you


Yup, there's even a 24 drive monstrosity with a crossoverless design! 



dhruvmeena96 said:


> W/o crossover sounds lazy Though(from engineering standpoint)
> Hahahahahha
> 
> Tried andro gold and was disappointed as it was not resolving enough and campfire tuning is kinda weird for my taste
> ...


never liked anything from CA personally. Especially the OG Andromeda. It sounds weird and unnatural to me. 


Wgibson said:


> Wow, that is professional level. Would love that shell file if you are willing and able to share it


it's in page 85. Download it and change the file name extension from .txt to .stl.


----------



## Theodoric Paddlefoot

Wgibson said:


> Wow, that is professional level. Would love that shell file if you are willing and able to share it


All kudos for this marvelous shell go to Aldo40. I changed the nozzle to a whopping 6.5mm OD, if you want that I can share it. 
Here is a 1mm faceplate. Same procedure as for the shell, change the extension from .txt to .stl.


----------



## Xymordos

mattmatt said:


> Yup, there's even a 24 drive monstrosity with a crossoverless design!
> 
> 
> never liked anything from CA personally. Especially the OG Andromeda. It sounds weird and unnatural to me.
> ...



That 24 driver one did not sound very good to me at all lol


----------



## mattmatt

Xymordos said:


> That 24 driver one did not sound very good to me at all lol


that's a bummer to hear.  great idea, terrible implementation I guess. 

Someone should try and cook a crossoverless design here.


----------



## IndyAudio14

Theodoric Paddlefoot said:


> All kudos for this marvelous shell go to Aldo40. I changed the nozzle to a whopping 6.5mm OD, if you want that I can share it.
> Here is a 1mm faceplate. Same procedure as for the shell, change the extension from .txt to .stl.


----------



## IndyAudio14

HELLO,DOES ANYBODY PLEASE Have HEADPHONE SHELL  wide bore file .stl. so I can use printing service to print some shells and faceplates.Or  some for sale thank you willing to buy some today...Been using soundlinks universals for about 2 years.


----------



## Theodoric Paddlefoot

IndyAudio14 said:


> HELLO,DOES ANYBODY PLEASE Have HEADPHONE SHELL  wide bore file .stl. so I can use printing service to print some shells and faceplates.Or  some for sale thank you willing to buy some today...Been using soundlinks universals for about 2 years.


Hey, this shell has a pretty wide bore and you can use the faceplate from a few posts above. Rename the .txt to .stl. The bore is about 6.5mm and you might struggle to fit your usual tips, please keep that in mind.


----------



## discus123

Theodoric Paddlefoot said:


> Hey, this shell has a pretty wide bore and you can use the faceplate from a few posts above. Rename the .txt to .stl. The bore is about 6.5mm and you might struggle to fit your usual tips, please keep that in mind.


Thanks bro,  you're are great.  Thanks Aldo40, nice shell you made.


----------



## Aldo40




----------



## IndyAudio14

Theodoric Paddlefoot said:


> Hey, this shell has a pretty wide bore and you can use the faceplate from a few posts above. Rename the .txt to .stl. The bore is about 6.5mm and you might struggle to fit your usual tips, please keep that in mind.


----------



## IndyAudio14

Theodoric Paddlefoot said:


> Hey, this shell has a pretty wide bore and you can use the faceplate from a few posts above. Rename the .txt to .stl. The bore is about 6.5mm and you might struggle to fit your usual tips, please keep that in mind.


THANKS MR PADDLEFOOT,ALDO40 FOR THE FILE HAD A COMPANY PRINT A SET LAST NIGHT SHIPPED OUT THIS MORNING.I HAVE SOME WIDEBORE TIPS SO CANT WAIT


----------



## Theodoric Paddlefoot

IndyAudio14 said:


> THANKS MR PADDLEFOOT,ALDO40 FOR THE FILE HAD A COMPANY PRINT A SET LAST NIGHT SHIPPED OUT THIS MORNING.I HAVE SOME WIDEBORE TIPS SO CANT WAIT


You're welcome, I hope the shells turn out great and wish you success with your build.


----------



## Jerry-S

Theodoric Paddlefoot said:


> A little update from my MASM 3 Pro with added 38D1X, the MASM 5 A.
> I've played around a bit with adding tubes right into the shell in Fusion 360 and that worked quite well. In the end though, I've settled with the shell from @Aldo40 from page 885, which I modified to make the nozzle bigger so that I can fit 2x 2mm and 1x 1mm ID tubes quite nicely.
> I've printed with black resin and used Lack 3 for the shell itself and for the faceplate I went with some nail polish with chameleon effect, covered with Lack 3.
> 
> ...


I would like to experiment with this setup, too. As I already have all the MASM 3 PRO drivers lying around, just need to put in an order for the 38D1XJ.
Have one question, you said you played around with tubing lengths. What lengths did you finally settle on?


----------



## Theodoric Paddlefoot

Jerry-S said:


> I would like to experiment with this setup, too. As I already have all the MASM 3 PRO drivers lying around, just need to put in an order for the 38D1XJ.
> Have one question, you said you played around with tubing lengths. What lengths did you finally settle on?


I've used the MASM 3 Pro tubing and for the 38D1X I went for 1mm ID, 22mm length with a yellow damper at 11mm.


----------



## Wgibson

Anybody use un shrunk or partially shrunk heat shrink as sound tubes? I have a few times, but wondering if I need to stop.. If the iems get too hot in a car or something, it could shrink more.

I found 90*c /194*f as a common temperature for heat shrink, of course they shouldn't get that hot but if left in direct sun, maybe. Also worried they could slowly shrink over time, at lower temps.


----------



## Aldo40

Wgibson said:


> Anybody use un shrunk or partially shrunk heat shrink as sound tubes? I have a few times, but wondering if I need to stop.. If the iems get too hot in a car or something, it could shrink more.
> 
> I found 90*c /194*f as a common temperature for heat shrink, of course they shouldn't get that hot but if left in direct sun, maybe. Also worried they could slowly shrink over time, at lower temps.


I don’t think you need this kind of tube, they are finer and must reason a little more because they are finer, if you want to gain thickness at the end of the nozzle, you can use piercing needles for example like here
https://twister6com.files.wordpress.com/2020/11/oriolus-traillii-23.jpg?w=720


----------



## Aldo40 (Sep 4, 2021)

Jerry-S said:


> I would like to experiment with this setup, too. As I already have all the MASM 3 PRO drivers lying around, just need to put in an order for the 38D1XJ.
> Have one question, you said you played around with tubing lengths. What lengths did you finally settle on?


.
To begin, you can test with a 1mm ID tube and 20mm long.

The longer you lengthen the tube length the more you will act in low pass.

A yellow or orange damper will also act as a low pass, there is no fixed value on the dimension of a tube, it depends on the individual response curve you want given to each driver

It also depends on which drivers it will be coupled with.

phase testing will be required to determine which filter and tube size configuration will be the most suitable.

It takes a lot of testing!

But 1mm IDx20mm with a yellow damper is a good start

The more you decrease the diameter of a tube, the more it will act in low pass it can make a low driver a little faster but you notice a loss of gain.

It’s like the history of the water hose that you go pinch with your fingers, you’re going to increase the pressure of the water but you’re going to lose flow, well it’s a metaphor


----------



## kmmm

Aldo40 said:


> If I have a moment I can measure both. For the Knowles measures I also noticed that they were often different. After there are several SWFK, I must have at my disposal 3 different reference to SWFK the classic 31736 which is not ammorti, the 32254 and the 32255 which are ammorti. Despite the very linear Knowles curve of the 32255, in reality there are still higher peaks than on the manufacturer curves. All this to tell you that nothing will replace our own curves in real situations.
> measuring 28uap or series 33 sonion and the builder curves are very different also


This would be really interesting to see. I have only tried the 32625 my self..


----------



## Aldo40

Piotr left some comparative graph, the 32625 are the same but with a stronger built-in damper that lowered one may more peaks


----------



## Jerry-S

Thanks everyone for your help. Now I just need to wait for my shipment to arrive then start testing.


----------



## Petrichor DE

Hi everybody,

I'm trying to upgrade my CIEM with a Zobel. 

It has 2x TWFK on each side.

Can anybody tell me how I should calculate the correct C and R?


----------



## Wgibson

Petrichor DE said:


> Hi everybody,
> 
> I'm trying to upgrade my CIEM with a Zobel.
> 
> ...



You need to measure (or find) the inductance. LCR meters aren't too expensive.

Then: 
https://diyaudioprojects.com/Technical/Speaker-Zobel/

There are more complex calculations too, I'm sure someone will chime in.


----------



## Aldo40

Another method also consists in measuring the impedance of the driver and then simulating the RC in software like vituix, after which we can improve the adjustment by taking a new measurement because there can be an offset between the simulation and the real measurement


----------



## Wgibson

And of course, why estimate when you can calculate, why calculate when you can measure.

An impedance jig is simple to make, connectors and 100 ohm resistor. Room EQ wizard software is free. You can measure/test impedance with slightly different R and C zobel values.


----------



## re23071998

https://detail.1688.com/pic/651127125521.html?spm=a261y.7663282.1998411378.1.d2fb4dce7WWZl4
found this cool housing.
any recommended 6.5 - 7mm drivers?


----------



## Jerry-S

I have a question. 
I have been using the standard hydrocolloid mixture when making a mold but its quite time consuming and tricky to get perfect consistency. 
Has anyone used either clear silicone or Dreve/Nicefit acrylic to make a permanent reusable negative mold?


----------



## piotrus-g

Jerry-S said:


> Has anyone used either clear silicone or Dreve/Nicefit acrylic to make a permanent reusable negative mold?


Yes, it works, it's expensive (very) and shrinks over time - cannot be reused after 1year, and if used often probably only 6 months.


----------



## Inspector Gadget

lol, using 24 drivers, but no crossover, seems like an odd set of priorities. why? I can understand doing something akin to a 2 way with a full range plus sub, for simplicity's sake, but its not like these drivers have particularly linear response (nor does the ear). You are never going to do better just by throwing more drivers at the problem and it ceases to be an exercise in simplicity/elegance long before 24 ....


----------



## kkugel

Hey guys! Maybe anyone here has experience!
I'm trying to 3D print a 100mm 0.5 ID tube. I know it's possible to do this, but I can't get the resin out.
I use a 20ml Syringe with 0.45 and 0.75ID Needles to inject Isopropanol with pressure, but the resin never gets cleaned properly, even though the needle seals watertight. I use Siraya Build resin, which is fairly thin and my printer has no issues with details like this otherwise. Do I need a bigger ID needle or smaller diameter Syringe perhaps? No clue how to solve this at this point.


----------



## Theodoric Paddlefoot

Hey mate!
I'm by no means an expert, please keep that in mind.
From my experience, printed tubes tend to fail more and more the smaller your ID gets. Plus, if you're trying to do some kind of rollercoaster printings you might have to perfect every aspect of your settings.
Does it really have to be 0.5mm ID? Because if not, a little release on that pressure button will definitely get you there.


----------



## Aldo40

Can you share your stl of the 100 mm tube that we look at how you positioned it? the parameters. printing are very important also depending on the resin you used. Otherwise there are 0.5mm silicone tubes it seems to me that I have already bought some.


----------



## kkugel

Theodoric Paddlefoot said:


> Hey mate!
> I'm by no means an expert, please keep that in mind.
> From my experience, printed tubes tend to fail more and more the smaller your ID gets. Plus, if you're trying to do some kind of rollercoaster printings you might have to perfect every aspect of your settings.
> Does it really have to be 0.5mm ID? Because if not, a little release on that pressure button will definitely get you there.


I tried 1mm ID which cleared well, but that wasn't suitable for the sound, as it just made stuff muddy. It really needs to be this size


----------



## kkugel

Aldo40 said:


> Can you share your stl of the 100 mm tube that we look at how you positioned it? the parameters. printing are very important also depending on the resin you used. Otherwise there are 0.5mm silicone tubes it seems to me that I have already bought some.


Sorry can't share the STL. It's a long tube with many curves though. Identical one printed fine in 1mm ID and with 0.5mm I can see the liquid resin inside, it prints fine as well but I just cannot flush it.


----------



## Wgibson

Can you clear the resin with a single strand of wire, then follow with alchohol soaked thread?


----------



## kkugel

Wgibson said:


> Can you clear the resin with a single strand of wire, then follow with alchohol soaked thread?


Good idea, but it's bent way too much


----------



## Wgibson

This is integral in a shell, right? Syringe to pull a vacuum through the tube? You can try to suck alchohol through it.


----------



## kkugel

Wgibson said:


> This is integral in a shell, right? Syringe to pull a vacuum through the tube? You can try to suck alchohol through it.


Yes. Tried that as well


----------



## Aldo40

kkugel said:


> Sorry can't share the STL. It's a long tube with many curves though. Identical one printed fine in 1mm ID and with 0.5mm I can see the liquid resin inside, it prints fine as well but I just cannot flush it.


 Personally I make 3D shell with integrated tube with coil of several centimeters. I had some plugged tubes at the beginning so I change my printing parameters and it’s better, I also use ultrasonic cleaning in an ISO alcohol bath.


----------



## kkugel

Aldo40 said:


> Personally I make 3D shell with integrated tube with coil of several centimeters. I had some plugged tubes at the beginning so I change my printing parameters and it’s better, I also use ultrasonic cleaning in an ISO alcohol bath.


That sounds cool, what ID does your long tube have?


----------



## Aldo40 (Sep 14, 2021)

ID de 1 mm.
 I have tubes of 0.5mm but I do not use them because I find that it too tight the bass at the level of gain. 1mm and a good compromise


----------



## CBTlover223

Hello, how do I determine which frequencies a driver is best suited for? I am trying to build my first CIEM, but I am not sure which drivers to choose. I am currently considering the SWFK-31736 for the tweeter and the HODVTEC-31618 for the woofer but I am not sure if I should choose a driver dedicated to the mids. Any help would be greatly appreciated. 

Also, can I use software like vituixCAD to get a rough idea of the frequency response of the completed IEM?


----------



## Aldo40

CBTlover223 said:


> Also, can I use software like vituixCAD to get a rough idea of the frequency response of the completed IEM?


vituaxCad a besoins des fichier de mesure des drivers
I so if you use a microphone then you can use it


----------



## CBTlover223

Aldo40 said:


> vituaxCad a besoins des fichier de mesure des drivers
> I so if you use a microphone then you can use it


Do you know if I can find measurements online somewhere?


----------



## ohige

This is my first post.
I did a lot of testing to make an IEM.



> I am currently considering the SWFK-31736 for the tweeter and the HODVTEC-31618 for the woofer but I am not sure if I should choose a driver dedicated to the mids.


If you don't add a mid, you may get a dip at 2k-3kHz. This can result in loss of sound transparency.
However, 3WAY IEMs are difficult to adjust. The units affect each other electrically and mechanically. In other words, the damper attached to the woofer also affects the tweeter. The difficulty level is different between 2WAY and 3WAY. 2WAY is recommended for the first production.



> Also, can I use software like vituixCAD to get a rough idea of the frequency response of the completed IEM?


In order to measure the frequency characteristics, it is good to have a personal computer, a microphone, a PVC tube, and a kneaded eraser.
Use a kneaded eraser to fill the gap between the unit or IEM and the PVC tube.
I am using REW for measurement.
It does not give exactly the correct measurements, but it can be compared to other IEMs. I think you can make the measurements you need.

I haven't been allowed to post photos yet.


----------



## ohige (Sep 16, 2021)

Hello everyone.
I learned a lot from this forum and made an IEM.
I am grateful to everyone who shared a lot of knowledge.

I'm not good at English, so I use google translate. I'm sorry if there is strange English.

I did a lot of experiments, tests, measurements and auditions to make an IEM.
The model version of the IEM is 12, and I'm finally proud of the IEM I like.

I made it as follows.

1) Create impressions.
2) 3D scan with iphone (Trnio).
3) Mold the 3D model with meshmixer.
4) Create a part to attach the face plate with FUSION 360 and convert it to STL.
5) Synthesize the impressions model and the face plate model with meshmixer.
6) Design the sound path part with FUSION 360 and subtract it from the external model.
7) Design the face plate with FUSION 360.
8) Print the model with a 3D printer (ELEGOO MARS 2 Pro).
9) Lacquer the printed material.
10) Adjust the network and damper while incorporating the unit and performing measurement (REW).
11) Make a face plate, cover the IEM and it's done!

model: IEM-012 is 10BA. All units are from langzhisheng (AliExpress).

EJ-30029 x 1 (≒ CI-22955 x 2) + Red Dumper (2200 ohm)
4.7uF + FWEK-31785 x 1 (≒ DWFK-31785 x 2) + Brown dumper (1000ohm) x 2
0.68uF + FWEK-31718 x 1 (≒ SWFK-31736 x 2)

I am using Rubycon PMLCAP for the capacitor. SMD type small film capacitor.
The sound is very clear. I have the illusion that my ears have improved. The treble (6kHz and above) is weak in the frequency response measurement, but it doesn't hurt because of that. I like the KZ ZAX and ZAS sounds, but the IEM-012 sounds better than them.
Since the impedance is low (10 ohm), a high-performance amplifier is required. A small amount of electrical noise becomes a sound. Also, the output impedance of the amplifier must be low enough. I am using the voltage follower circuit of THS4631.

The face plate can be replaced. I made different designs of faceplates using various techniques. I can exchange it depending on the mood of the day.

I have done a lot of experiments so I have gained experience and knowledge. I would like to share that experience with you.





Sunburst!



The Metal



Aurora



Racing



IEM-012 Frequency characteristic



IEM-012 Impedance characteristics



IEM-012 Sound path design



Inside IEM-012. I use a kneaded eraser.



Various IEMs(1DD+2BA,1DD+7BA,8BA,6BA etc...)



Replaceable face plate



Jigs and microphones for testing.


----------



## discus123

ohige said:


> The face plate can be replaced. I made different designs of faceplates using various techniques. You can exchange it depending on the mood of the day.


Hello, Looks very good.  I wanna to know how the faceplate firmly attached to the shell ?  Can you tell more about this.  Thanks !


----------



## ohige

discus123 said:


> Hello, Looks very good.  I wanna to know how the faceplate firmly attached to the shell ?  Can you tell more about this.  Thanks !


All IEMs have a common shape for the faceplate mounting area.
The face plate has a convex part that fits into the IEM.
Use a kneaded eraser when fitting to make it more difficult to remove. The kneaded eraser is a little sticky (but easy to peel off) so you can put it on and take it off again and again.






Synthesize common shapes.



The part where the face plate fits is all the same shape.


----------



## Xymordos

The replaceable faceplate is really cool! I need to learn how to use Fusion 360 too ><


----------



## ohige (Sep 16, 2021)

Xymordos said:


> The replaceable faceplate is really cool! I need to learn how to use Fusion 360 too ><


Thank you!

It's hard to explain all the features of the FUSION 360, but I first created a common sketch. I imported the model data on the left and the model data on the right, which was inverted, and drew a common geometric figure. All shells and faceplates are based on this sketch.





The technique of nail art is very helpful for how to make a face plate.
Two additional faceplates will be completed today or tomorrow. I will show you the photo again when it is completed.

I don't use glue on it. Only a kneaded eraser. I love the kneaded eraser.
All my IEMs are ready to be disassembled. If I don't like the sound, I can disassemble it and put the unit in another shell.
It is very convenient because it is easy to change the capacitor and replace the wiring for adjustment.


----------



## Xymordos

ohige said:


> Thank you!
> The technique of nail art is very helpful for how to make a face plate.
> Two additional faceplates will be completed today or tomorrow. I will show you the photo again when it is completed.
> 
> ...



Kneaded eraser...do you mean blutak? o.O


----------



## mattmatt

ohige said:


> All IEMs have a common shape for the faceplate mounting area.
> The face plate has a convex part that fits into the IEM.
> Use a kneaded eraser when fitting to make it more difficult to remove. The kneaded eraser is a little sticky (but easy to peel off) so you can put it on and take it off again and again.
> 
> ...


Great! How did you manage to create the chamber/driver holder? Is it from a hollow shell?


----------



## ohige

Xymordos said:


> Kneaded eraser...do you mean blutak? o.O


The kneaded eraser is a deformable eraser used in drawing.
Adhesiveness and hardness differ depending on the manufacturer.
I like Sakura Color Products RDD-150.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kneaded_eraser

https://www.craypas.co.jp/products/eraser/034/0115/010715.html


----------



## ohige

mattmatt said:


> Great! How did you manage to create the chamber/driver holder? Is it from a hollow shell?


Place the unit model on the external model.




Create a sound path model.




Subtract the sound path model from the external model.




The unit model is made a little larger (0.1mm) than the actual one, so it feels like pushing the unit weakly. When assembling, fill the gap with a kneaded eraser to prevent sound leakage.

Does this explanation match?


----------



## Aldo40

CBTlover223 said:


> Do you know if I can find measurements online somewhere?


no you have to measure them even on the same platform, you cannot take a driver measure by someone and another driver measured by someone else. because the scale may not be the same


----------



## Aldo40

ohige said:


> Place the unit model on the external model.
> 
> 
> Create a sound path model.
> ...


First of all, it’s a great job , congratulations I don’t really understand the sticking with rubbing gum. Why don’t you create the locations in the full direct shell under 360 fusion? It would save you the trouble of assembling and pasting


----------



## ohige

Aldo40 said:


> First of all, it’s a great job , congratulations I don’t really understand the sticking with rubbing gum. Why don’t you create the locations in the full direct shell under 360 fusion? It would save you the trouble of assembling and pasting


thank you!
I'm using Google Translate, so you may have misunderstood your question. I'm sorry in that case.

The external model is mesh data.
FUSION 360 is not suitable for editing mesh data. Therefore, when editing the external model (smoothing, deformation, etc.), use meshmixer.

The sound path model is created as a geometric model. Geometric models can create accurate shapes and are suitable for repetitive editing. Therefore, the sound path model created by the geometric model at the end is converted to the mesh model and subtracted.


----------



## Aldo40

ohige said:


> thank you!
> I'm using Google Translate, so you may have misunderstood your question. I'm sorry in that case.
> 
> The external model is mesh data.
> ...



I use Google translate too lol So when you release the shell to the printer, they come out in one piece, is that okay?


----------



## ohige

Aldo40 said:


> I use Google translate too lol So when you release the shell to the printer, they come out in one piece, is that okay?


The sound path model is a solid model, not a hollow model.
The external model is also a solid model.
A hollow model can be created by subtracting the solid model from the solid model.

The sound path model is a solid model, not a pipe.


----------



## ohige (Sep 17, 2021)

Since I received the message of the question, I will explain how to make a sunburst color face plate.

 1) Create and print a face plate model with two steps in a staircase pattern.







 2) Draw a shape that goes into a deep step inside with illustrator and print it on the label sheet.
 tips: You can create accurate shape data by saving the drawing data created by FUSION 360 as PDF and importing it into illustrator.  It is good to offset the shape inward by 0.2 to 0.3 mm to make it smaller.




 3) Attach the printed label sheet to a thin natural wood sheet and cut the natural wood sheet with a design knife.  After cutting, remove the label sheet.




 4) Use Illustrator to create a shape that fits into a shallow step on the outside.  Use Illustrator or Photoshop to create black, red, and yellow gradients and logos.  Print it on a transparent film (eg OHP film).
tips: Invert the characters.




 5) Cut the printed transparent film according to the outer diameter shape.
 tips: Paint the cut section black with a felt-tip pen to make it less noticeable.

 6) Stick a natural wood sheet on the base of the face plate.

 7) Apply a thin layer of UV resin and cure.

 8) Apply a thin layer of UV resin, attach a gradation film, and then apply UV resin.

 9) It cures by exposing it to UV light.




 10) Apply UV resin to the entire surface to flatten the surface.

 11) It cures when exposed to UV light,




 12) Paint with clear lacquer using an airbrush.

 13) Take a closer look and enjoy yourself, and you're done!


----------



## ohige

I apologize for the continuous posting.

The new face plate is complete!
If I make an IEM for Vocaloid songs and anime songs, I would like to adopt it.




Cartoon typeA




Cartoon typeB


----------



## Aldo40

Excellent job. And thanks for the method of the previous page on the tubes/shell assemblies , it’s a bit long to do but it works perfectly  as I said the secret ears design software does this in 5 minutes but does not save the files in STL


----------



## Aldo40

Thank ohige 

[


----------



## CBTlover223

Is using a Sonion 38DJ007Mi/9a for a woofer, Knowles ED-29689 for the mids, and a SWFK-31736 for the tweeter a good idea?
Any advice/feedback will be greatly appreciated.


----------



## ohige

Aldo40 said:


> Thank ohige
> 
> [


Great job!
congratulations!
I am looking forward to the completion.



CBTlover223 said:


> Is using a Sonion 38DJ007Mi/9a for a woofer, Knowles ED-29689 for the mids, and a SWFK-31736 for the tweeter a good idea?
> Any advice/feedback will be greatly appreciated.


I think it's a good choice.
If the phase characteristics can be controlled, it may be completed without using a resistor.


----------



## piotrus-g

ohige said:


> Since I received the message of the question, I will explain how to make a sunburst color face plate.
> 
> 1) Create and print a face plate model with two steps in a staircase pattern.
> 
> ...





ohige said:


> I apologize for the continuous posting.
> 
> The new face plate is complete!
> If I make an IEM for Vocaloid songs and anime songs, I would like to adopt it.
> ...


impresive! congrats


----------



## swtnate

mattmatt said:


> JH uses smd inductors


JH also uses proprietary drivers.


----------



## Yasser gizouli

I want to me ba + est hybrid iem, with Sonion EST65DA01 and Knowles ED-29689.
crossoverless , the drivers wired in series .
what about this combination, and is there any better ba driver for lows and mids?


----------



## discus123

This batch of shells just taken out from my 3D printer this morning, it seems quite smooth and solves all my probelms facing in previous printing.  In here I thank bro mattmatt for his big big helping.  You're kind and generous indeed helping me a lot.   thanks bro !


----------



## Aldo40

what’s the hole on the shell?


----------



## discus123

Aldo40 said:


> what’s the hole on the shell?


I'm completely new on 3D printing.  That hole is created by the 3D printing software.  If I don't dig a hole inside the shell, after finish printing the shell inside would have a layer of extra coating of cured UV resin.   

I have tried also inverted the shell for printing but the bore needs to put a support and the come out result is the bore not even or not round enough.

Any others recommendation ?


----------



## Aldo40 (Sep 19, 2021)

Do not create holes, if you use chitubox, this software may automatically create a hole for the removal of resin. In your slicer software you need to create support, you can put the shell to 45 degrees. Personally I use Lycheeslicer, it is a bit less simple than chitubox but it is very good. However you can stay on chitubox but prefer prints with support for the shells you will have less problem. You can even put a single large support on a slice for it to work , it must have a large enough base to support suction when lifting the tray, I will try to make you screenshots.

exemple:


----------



## CBTlover223 (Sep 19, 2021)

How do I work with litz wire? It seems like its too thin to strip. I've seen some methods online that uses a pool of molten solder to strip and tin it. Can I do something with only a soldering iron?


----------



## Wgibson

CBTlover223 said:


> How do I work with litz wire? It seems like its too thin to strip. I've seen some methods online that uses a pool of molten solder to strip and tin it. Can I do something with only a soldering iron?



Just flux the end and start soldering, the insulation will burn off


----------



## discus123

Aldo40 said:


> Do not create holes, if you use chitubox, this software may automatically create a hole for the removal of resin. In your slicer software you need to create support, you can put the shell to 45 degrees. Personally I use Lycheeslicer, it is a bit less simple than chitubox but it is very good. However you can stay on chitubox but prefer prints with support for the shells you will have less problem. You can even put a single large support on a slice for it to work , it must have a large enough base to support suction when lifting the tray, I will try to make you screenshots.
> 
> exemple:


thanks your advise.  I will make change and print the shell again.  Do I need to change the printer setup also.  please take a look for me,

Layer Height = 0.03 mm
Exposure time = 8 seconds
bottom layer count = 5
bottom exposure time = 30 seconds
anti-aliasing = 5
Lift total height=4
Lift speed= 120
retract speed =120
stop time=3

thanks.


----------



## mattmatt

discus123 said:


> thanks your advise.  I will make change and print the shell again.  Do I need to change the printer setup also.  please take a look for me,
> 
> Layer Height = 0.03 mm
> Exposure time = 8 seconds
> ...


This would depend on your printer, sadly. You have to know which works for you the best. Printing without failures + printing at the shortest time. 

Sometimes, there are even batches of resin that you have to increase exposure time by a second or two.


----------



## kkugel

discus123 said:


> thanks your advise.  I will make change and print the shell again.  Do I need to change the printer setup also.  please take a look for me,
> 
> Layer Height = 0.03 mm
> Exposure time = 8 seconds
> ...


Hey man, layer height of 0.05 is sufficient for great detail. You'll save some time 



discus123 said:


> thanks your advise.  I will make change and print the shell again.  Do I need to change the printer setup also.  please take a look for me,
> 
> Layer Height = 0.03 mm
> Exposure time = 8 seconds
> ...


Oh and double lift height to 8, as well as lift speed to 80. These are the things that actually improve print quality


----------



## Aldo40

It also depends on the resin used, look at the resin maker and see what they advise as setting in relation to your printer?


----------



## CBTlover223 (Sep 20, 2021)

How do I determine good cutoff frequencies for my crossover network? My current understanding is that I tune it to match my target FR, but Will the sound change at where different drivers intersect? Also, when should I use a zobel network for the woofer?


----------



## kkugel

Aldo40 said:


> It also depends on the resin used, look at the resin maker and see what they advise as setting in relation to your printer?


Slower lift and further lift generally improve results for all resins in my experience


----------



## Aldo40 (Sep 20, 2021)

kkugel said:


> Slower lift and further lift generally improve results for all resins in my experience


Yes it depends on the resins, there are resins where the standard settings are enough and other or sometimes it is necessary to slow down the lifting for a good detachment of the layer on the FEP, as I said, each one makes these experiments and in the end each will have his own settings. people can be advised more precisely if they use exactly the same material. I think I have a hundred test shells printed to make my adjustments, the most difficult resins are the clear, I didn’t use more than one


----------



## Wgibson

First hybrid, nothing special but I like the curve, almost too bright with that 5.5k spike but this is with no dampers or filter (I might put a screen filter on it later.) I was trying to get the most highs out of the 29689, think I did ok.

8mm dual DD and a 29689 in parallel. Out of polarity(phase.) They were fine before the crossover, but I had some cancelation after the crossover so it was better reversed.

High pass 29689 4.7uf and 3 ohm resistor to better match the DD. Crossover just built on the terminal.

Pics and curve:


Spoiler


----------



## discus123

Thanks all you guy helping.  Thanks a million,  you all are great and expert !!!

I used the clear high transparency UV Resin. They just told me to use 0.03mm for layer height and exposure time of 8 seconds, other than that they haven't mentioned.  I changed the shell to 45 degree hanging on the build-plate and did not make a hole this trial, lift height to 8 and lift speed to 80 but the layer height remain 0.03mm.   Woo,  it needs 8hrs 45mins to complete the printing.  I start it before I go to office and leave it there and to see what's the results when I back home.


----------



## Aldo40

discus123 said:


> Thanks all you guy helping.  Thanks a million,  you all are great and expert !!!
> 
> I used the clear high transparency UV Resin. They just told me to use 0.03mm for layer height and exposure time of 8 seconds, other than that they haven't mentioned.  I changed the shell to 45 degree hanging on the build-plate and did not make a hole this trial, lift height to 8 and lift speed to 80 but the layer height remain 0.03mm.   Woo,  it needs 8hrs 45mins to complete the printing.  I start it before I go to office and leave it there and to see what's the results when I back home.


8h seems excessive, you have to review the settings in my opinion because I have to put a little more than 3H with any resin.


----------



## mattmatt

discus123 said:


> Thanks all you guy helping.  Thanks a million,  you all are great and expert !!!
> 
> I used the clear high transparency UV Resin. They just told me to use 0.03mm for layer height and exposure time of 8 seconds, other than that they haven't mentioned.  I changed the shell to 45 degree hanging on the build-plate and did not make a hole this trial, lift height to 8 and lift speed to 80 but the layer height remain 0.03mm.   Woo,  it needs 8hrs 45mins to complete the printing.  I start it before I go to office and leave it there and to see what's the results when I back home.


you have to check your settings bro. I think 8 hrs is a bit much. 5 hrs max for me. That would depend on how I orient my shells and how high they are.


----------



## discus123

I set the supports 10mm hanging the shell on the build-plate.  Is that too high ?

I used the software that come with the 3D printer, Nova 3D maker.  I did compare it with Chitubox v1.9. Chitubox is faster by 50%. but one thing is Chitubox has a lot of option it needs to config. Do I need to config it or just use the default setting is ok ?


----------



## mattmatt

discus123 said:


> I set the supports 10mm hanging the shell on the build-plate.  Is that too high ?
> 
> I used the software that come with the 3D printer, Nova 3D maker.  I did compare it with Chitubox v1.9. Chitubox is faster by 50%. but one thing is Chitubox has a lot of option it needs to config. Do I need to config it or just use the default setting is ok ?


You mean you lift your shell 10mm from base? that's way too high in my opinion. I lift mine at 3mm. I think most of those parameters are well built to be configured and it helps with the print. 

Can you show us how you layout your shells in your software?


----------



## discus123

I'll show you while I back home.  thanks mattmatt


----------



## dhruvmeena96

ohige said:


> Hello everyone.
> I learned a lot from this forum and made an IEM.
> I am grateful to everyone who shared a lot of knowledge.
> 
> ...


Send me impedance data and Frequency data and i will gib u a magic circuit

Project looks dope anyways


----------



## dhruvmeena96

CBTlover223 said:


> Is using a Sonion 38DJ007Mi/9a for a woofer, Knowles ED-29689 for the mids, and a SWFK-31736 for the tweeter a good idea?
> Any advice/feedback will be greatly appreciated.


12mm tube
Add 10ohms to ED
And put a white damper in center

And tune other driver according to that ED(around that ED)


----------



## discus123 (Sep 21, 2021)

Here is the 3D printer layouts and settings


----------



## Aldo40 (Sep 21, 2021)

I do not understand why you stay on 0.03mm resolution. 0.05 is ample, you waste time for nothing. same if you have anti aliasing options there too, disabled them, it’s useless here To calculate the number of base layer there is a ruler, one layer per cm of shell height . Example if the height of your iem + support is 4 cm high then put 4 layers of base, it is for the resistance of detachment throughout the process.
Novamaker has incorrect configuration profiles this is the only fault of the Bene4 , I advise you to fire it and put lychee instead or chitubox


----------



## mattmatt

discus123 said:


> Here is the 3D printer layouts and settings


you can reduce your lift height by 2 or 3mm. but with your orientation I think 2mm would be okay. You can use .05 layer height but try increasing your exposure time by 1 second. Don't mind the "finger print" problem you told me. You can always just sand it down and lacquer or buff em out.


----------



## discus123

Aldo40 said:


> I do not understand why you stay on 0.03mm resolution. 0.05 is ample, you waste time for nothing. same if you have anti aliasing options there too, disabled them, it’s useless here To calculate the number of base layer there is a ruler, one layer per cm of shell height . Example if the height of your iem + support is 4 cm high then put 4 layers of base, it is for the resistance of detachment throughout the process.







The come out of the shell is very good,  no more that extra layer of cured resin inside the shell.  It is smoother and more finer than previous printing. Thanks  Aldo40, your way of putting the shell is the best and I have no need to make an additional hole to drainage away the resin.  I can't imagine different way of putting the shell would have so big different.  Alright, in the next print, I'll change the layer height to 0.05mm to see if any improvement on shorten the printing time.


----------



## discus123

mattmatt said:


> you can reduce your lift height by 2 or 3mm. but with your orientation I think 2mm would be okay. You can use .05 layer height but try increasing your exposure time by 1 second. Don't mind the "finger print" problem you told me. You can always just sand it down and lacquer or buff em out.


ok, I'll try it tomorrow. thanks mattmatt


----------



## Aldo40

if you took 8 hours in 0.03 you will divide your time by almost X2


----------



## CBTlover223

dhruvmeena96 said:


> 12mm tube
> Add 10ohms to ED
> And put a white damper in center
> 
> And tune other driver according to that ED(around that ED)


Do you think that adding a TEC - 30006 or Sonion 2015 would help with getting rid of some of the dips created by the 38DJ007Mi/9a + ED-29689?


----------



## swtnate

discus123 said:


> ok, I'll try it tomorrow. thanks mattmatt


Also, if you’re using an LCD/ Mono printer, those long exposure times cause undue heat exposure to the LCD screen.  Depending on the printer, which im not familiar with the one you are using, the fan will not adequately cool it down.  The overal idea is to get your model off the printer with the least amount of exposure time, using the least amount of resin, and not causing excessive heat on the components.  One pair of universals with face plates will print out in 3 hours.  Thats using black resin from eSun and an old Photon S.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

CBTlover223 said:


> Do you think that adding a TEC - 30006 or Sonion 2015 would help with getting rid of some of the dips created by the 38DJ007Mi/9a + ED-29689?


I use sonion 33AJ for that purposes


----------



## swtnate

dhruvmeena96 said:


> I use sonion 33AJ for that purposes


The 33AJ has almost just as choppy falloff but without the resonances.  It does come pre-wired parallel too.  But, it just doesn't BOOM and 808 like the 38.


----------



## swtnate

Someone in here blew my mind with a picture of the new Knowles dual driver.  It had what looked like an ED29689 with a capacitor soldered to the center tap and to the positive.  Is this how I have been supposed to wire this type drivers? (ie. 2389, 2389D, etc.) If so, I've got a WHOLE lot of measuring to do.


----------



## mattmatt

swtnate said:


> Someone in here blew my mind with a picture of the new Knowles dual driver.  It had what looked like an ED29689 with a capacitor soldered to the center tap and to the positive.  Is this how I have been supposed to wire this type drivers? (ie. 2389, 2389D, etc.) If so, I've got a WHOLE lot of measuring to do.


cramming it inside a really small shell is kind of difficult tho. I used to do that a whole bunch but after lifting the pads (both from the cap/resistor and the BA themselves) I moved to making a wiring harness. 

Never did a parallel to the driver with caps tho. Wouldn't that act like a LPF?


----------



## swtnate

mattmatt said:


> cramming it inside a really small shell is kind of difficult tho. I used to do that a whole bunch but after lifting the pads (both from the cap/resistor and the BA themselves) I moved to making a wiring harness.
> 
> Never did a parallel to the driver with caps tho. Wouldn't that act like a LPF?


Wiring harness????  Deets please!!


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Sep 22, 2021)

swtnate said:


> The 33AJ has almost just as choppy falloff but without the resonances.  It does come pre-wired parallel too.  But, it just doesn't BOOM and 808 like the 38.


I meant
I use 33AJ in band limit
100Hz to 1kHz (give me flat response and way lower distortion with more palatable mid section)

And 38D1XJ for 100Hz and lower

Bass shelf point is 200Hz and bass rise is linear 10dB

I think i have enough boom to shatter reality


----------



## Wgibson

I am very curious about center tap and full coil at the same time with different crossovers. I assumed you just couldn't do that...

Also, if anyone has a multi driver notch filter circuit diagram, I'd love to see it. Don't need specific drivers or crossover values, just a generic wiring diagram would be great.

I have done 3 (4, one dual) driver with high pass, full range, and low pass and it was a bit strange but worked well, I can make a sketch, or what software is easy to make a diagram and save a picture with?

Does anyone notice a benefit to electrical filters vs only physical? Or does the driver take care of itself and you just hear what you hear? Physical, electric, or both, does it matter if you have the same frequency response?


----------



## piotrus-g

Wgibson said:


> I am very curious about center tap and full coil at the same time with different crossovers. I assumed you just couldn't do that...


what it does is alter the slope and crossover point. 
Think of it this way, if you have say ED-29689 with 2.2uF on full coil and than 0.47uF on half coil you'd get some signal at say 2kHz then it would start to gradually climb up until hitting that 0.47 where it would bump quite a bit higher, so it would be like less than 1st degree crossover design if you will or normal HPF with extra steps. If you switch to 0.47 at full coil and then 2.2.uF at half coil my understanding is that the power will flow only through the 0.47uF as it's easier for the voltage to pass


----------



## Themilkman46290 (Sep 23, 2021)

Hello thread, I was on here a couple year back to ask for advice on a simply build for my wife who has one weird ear.
The suggestions helped, the iems were really impressive but they have broken over the last couple years, so I decided to fix them when she told me that her one ear still spits them out, so I researched a bit and it seems like good custom ear tips are 150 bucks + shipping
And a cheap (probably crappy sounding) ciem is around double that.
Seeing as we are not executives and can not afford $1000 ciems, and to be honest $300 for a crappy iem seems like it's just throwing away cash
I do however own a dremel, with many tips for drilling teeth and doing very fine wood work, I also have basic knowledge of mold making (4 years studying sculpture)
I have smd solder Station, several types of solder, and many small dental picks and tools.
So my question to you guys is what other equipment will I need besides
Nail uv light, a uv flashlight (for any small hard to reach spots) 
A double boiler for the agar agar, a hot plate, different drill bits, buffing wheels. 
Dental wax/paraffin wax
Nicefit, egger or dreve uv shell acrylic
Uv lacquer 
Litz
A bunch of smd caps and resistors
Solder and rosin
Some type of quality quickset glue
Acoustic tubing and filters
Drivers

What else should I be looking at? 

I was also thinking of purchasing a bottle of nail uv gel, and practice making shells with (not to waste the overly expensive good skin safe stuff) but I am curious because some guides/tutorials I found mentioned that this can be done if to use proper lacquer? 
But I am curious wouldn't this cause bleeding of one chemical into the out lacquer?

Yhanks


----------



## Aldo40

Wgibson said:


> I have done 3 (4, one dual) driver with high pass, full range, and low pass and it was a bit strange but worked well, I can make a sketch, or what software is easy to make a diagram and save a picture with?
> 
> Does anyone notice a benefit to electrical filters vs only physical? Or does the driver take care of itself and you just hear what you hear? Physical, electric, or both, does it matter if you have the same frequency response?


Use vituixcad. 
Electric filters have a wider action, they modify the impedance too . The damper on less action , they act especially in the high frequency to soften the crest , it’s sort of mufflers. Tube diameter and length also act as filters. All this to say that these 3 parameters are complementary.


----------



## kkugel

Themilkman46290 said:


> Hello thread, I was on here a couple year back to ask for advice on a simply build for my wife who has one weird ear.
> The suggestions helped, the iems were really impressive but they have broken over the last couple years, so I decided to fix them when she told me that her one ear still spits them out, so I researched a bit and it seems like good custom ear tips are 150 bucks + shipping
> And a cheap (probably crappy sounding) ciem is around double that.
> Seeing as we are not executives and can not afford $1000 ciems, and to be honest $300 for a crappy iem seems like it's just throwing away cash
> ...


I recommend a 711 coupler, it's a 90$ investment but you can boost your results in another league


----------



## Themilkman46290

kkugel said:


> I recommend a 711 coupler, it's a 90$ investment but you can boost your results in another league


Great, I was actually thinking about getting one, but I guess I will need a sound card to, and a good mic


----------



## kkugel

Themilkman46290 said:


> Great, I was actually thinking about getting one, but I guess I will need a sound card to, and a good mic


You can get the $9 Apple USB-C to 3.5mm dongle, it's sufficient and super linear as a soundcard. Mic is included with the 711 coupler


----------



## Wgibson

I should get a 711, using dayton imm6 so far. Every time I try to buy a 711, I can't quite understand the options well enough to buy it.

Anyone have a taobao link? Or aliexpress, but I assume taobao will be cheaper.


----------



## kmmm

dhruvmeena96 said:


> And 38D1XJ for 100Hz and lower
> 
> Bass shelf point is 200Hz and bass rise is linear 10dB
> 
> I think i have enough boom to shatter reality


How do you get your bass shelf down to 200hz? I’m trying to lower the shelf to 150Hz. No luck so far. 
High value caps mess with phase (are to big and expensive) Dampers won’t do it. Really thin tubing I find unpredictable -and clogs up with earwax.  Long tubing would in theory mess up timing? Well…this is what keeps me awake at night at the moment…


----------



## Aldo40 (Sep 25, 2021)

You don’t have to scrupulously respect the plateau of the curve Harman.
Personally I prefer smooth transitions after it’s up to everyone to see according to their tastes


----------



## Wgibson

kmmm said:


> How do you get your bass shelf down to 200hz? I’m trying to lower the shelf to 150Hz. No luck so far.
> High value caps mess with phase (are to big and expensive) Dampers won’t do it. Really thin tubing I find unpredictable -and clogs up with earwax.  Long tubing would in theory mess up timing? Well…this is what keeps me awake at night at the moment…



Try high passing the mid driver at 250-300hz ? This helps create a more pronounced shelf


----------



## Yasser gizouli

Hi there, how are you tubjng the drivers , the approx D of drivers snout is 1.4 
I can find 1.5 ID 2.5 OD which is fine but how i can mount dampers , there measurement is 1.12 mm ,1.78 mm and 2.08 mm .
My question is this What techniques can be used to get the dampers and tube right?


----------



## Arturo Sallas

I have a question for all of you. 
I bought a bottle of Egger resin, I ran out but I couldn't find the same resin, so I bought a bottle of Dreve. All good, looks the same, cures in the same time but I still have some leftovers of Egger (small colored portions), is it possible to mix them up? has anyone tried this before? or is it better to just trash the remainings and start with all fresh resin. 

Thanks a lot.


----------



## JEHL

Has anyone made an open back IEM?


----------



## mattmatt

Arturo Sallas said:


> I have a question for all of you.
> I bought a bottle of Egger resin, I ran out but I couldn't find the same resin, so I bought a bottle of Dreve. All good, looks the same, cures in the same time but I still have some leftovers of Egger (small colored portions), is it possible to mix them up? has anyone tried this before? or is it better to just trash the remainings and start with all fresh resin.
> 
> Thanks a lot.


Just use up all the left resin as is. Use it as adhesive for the faceplate, drivers, etc.


----------



## Wgibson

Anyone use a knowles FED 26859 before?


----------



## Spinnerauto

Hello.i have some problem with my ED29689,I connect it directly to normal terminal without any cap or resistor, So It have a lot of distortion in High-mid with normal volume . Anyone know what caused it?


----------



## Yasser gizouli

Hi there, how are you tubjng the drivers , the approx D of drivers snout is 1.4
I can find 1.5 ID 2.5 OD which is fine but how i can mount dampers , there measurement is 1.12 mm ,1.78 mm and 2.08 mm .
My question is this What techniques can be used to get the dampers and tube right?


----------



## kkugel

Yasser gizouli said:


> Hi there, how are you tubjng the drivers , the approx D of drivers snout is 1.4
> I can find 1.5 ID 2.5 OD which is fine but how i can mount dampers , there measurement is 1.12 mm ,1.78 mm and 2.08 mm .
> My question is this What techniques can be used to get the dampers and tube right?


Use the big dampers and shove em into a 2mm tube with a cut in half toothpick. Then glue 1.5mm tube to the 2mm tube on both ends


----------



## Aldo40 (Oct 1, 2021)

Yasser gizouli said:


> Hi there, how are you tubjng the drivers , the approx D of drivers snout is 1.4
> I can find 1.5 ID 2.5 OD which is fine but how i can mount dampers , there measurement is 1.12 mm ,1.78 mm and 2.08 mm .
> My question is this What techniques can be used to get the dampers and tube right?


The dampers knowles fits easily into the 2mm tubes without tools, for the inserted from the 1.5mmID tubes it is necessary this tools
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/7dwAAOSwJIhdUlRr/s-l500.jpg


----------



## Yasser gizouli

kkugel said:


> Use the big dampers and shove em into a 2mm tube with a cut in half toothpick. Then glue 1.5mm tube to the 2mm tube on both ends


The OD of the 1.5 is 2.5 it cant get into the 2.0 ID


----------



## Wgibson

You can stretch the tube with tweezers inside and some gentle heating, expand the tweezers and let cool


----------



## swtnate

Yasser gizouli said:


> The OD of the 1.5 is 2.5 it cant get into the 2.0 ID


https://www.oaktreeproducts.com/expando-liquid-tubing-softener-563


----------



## kkugel

Yasser gizouli said:


> The OD of the 1.5 is 2.5 it cant get into the 2.0 ID


Then you bought some weird tubes mate, Soundlink ones fit snugly


----------



## Aldo40

Yasser gizouli said:


> L'OD du 1.5 est de 2.5, il ne peut pas entrer dans l'ID 2.0


Ça c'est en théorie  mais on arrive a le faire et sans outil


----------



## Yasser gizouli

Aldo40 said:


> Ça c'est en théorie  mais on arrive a le faire et sans outil


I am asking about the how


----------



## Yasser gizouli

Wgibson said:


> You can stretch the tube with tweezers inside and some gentle heating, expand the tweezers and let cool


Thats sound applicable , will try it


----------



## CBTlover223

Has anyone tried adding a microphone for ANC in their IEMs? I'm thinking of giving it a shot after finding an appropriate microphone.


----------



## JEHL

More related to drivers than IEM. But I popped the back mesh of my BL-03's driver and apparently is much louder at 1kHz and under... Does anyone know why this behavior happened from popping a mesh in the back of the driver?


----------



## kkugel

JEHL said:


> More related to drivers than IEM. But I popped the back mesh of my BL-03's driver and apparently is much louder at 1kHz and under... Does anyone know why this behavior happened from popping a mesh in the back of the driver?


Mesh in the back is a way of tuning DDs, they are extremely sensitive to pressure restriction changes


----------



## mattmatt

Hey guys, aside from Fusion 360, any other way to create a PDF for the faceplate from an STL?


----------



## kkugel

mattmatt said:


> Hey guys, aside from Fusion 360, any other way to create a PDF for the faceplate from an STL?


Haha I know what you are doing😂 I think it's not a good idea, as you won't get the precision needed in the final result. Any good shop should accept STLs straight away!


----------



## JEHL

kkugel said:


> Mesh in the back is a way of tuning DDs, they are extremely sensitive to pressure restriction changes


Do you think I massively lowered the driver's resonant frequency by doing this? 

Also this is more or less what was I refering to with my previous comment. Could an IEM with a fully open back, including the driver itself work, at least I assume this is the headgear equivalent of infinite baffle.


----------



## mattmatt

kkugel said:


> Haha I know what you are doing😂 I think it's not a good idea, as you won't get the precision needed in the final result. Any good shop should accept STLs straight away!


What do you mean? I'd use it for better layout for engraving in my laser. Would also prefer to laser out the faceplate shape from my faceplate blanks. 

If you're thinking that I would send them to be printed by other shops, nah, I print my stuff in-house.


----------



## Wgibson

@JEHL the diy earbud thread has a lot of dynamic tuning info, it is tricky, you definitely need some way to measure the frequency response.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

JEHL said:


> Do you think I massively lowered the driver's resonant frequency by doing this?
> 
> Also this is more or less what was I refering to with my previous comment. Could an IEM with a fully open back, including the driver itself work, at least I assume this is the headgear equivalent of infinite baffle.


No
You boosted so much bass that it comes at 1kHz and onwards
Making it earbud driver


----------



## tomekk

zoom in 38D1XJ acupass damper


----------



## Aldo40

The black part in the spout and a plastic cap with a micro hole inside that makes low pass


----------



## Psypato92

Good afternoon, I need your help, what topics do I need to research, to be able to create an iem at the height of vision ears ve4.5...
For example dampers for goodbass  and the distance of there..
Pages where I can buy the material, aliexpress, mc ear, some other?
drivers sonion or knowless
i can use vinyl


----------



## Wgibson

Anyone use room eq wizard with an iec711? I need to get one, imm6 is consistent but I don't trust it above 10k and have a pair of EST I want to use so... Time for a 711


----------



## swtnate

Wgibson said:


> Anyone use room eq wizard with an iec711? I need to get one, imm6 is consistent but I don't trust it above 10k and have a pair of EST I want to use so... Time for a 711


This is what I use.  You’ll also need some way of calibrating the SPL meter in REW.  I have my max reading set at 129.  That tends to more closely match the data sheets and tech sheets.  Although, I do need to get a more professional SPL device.


----------



## Wgibson

Thanks @swtnate , I do have the meter and did SPL calibration with the imm6, but I recall it being tricky.

The 129 spl is a good number to know


----------



## swtnate

Wgibson said:


> Thanks @swtnate , I do have the meter and did SPL calibration with the imm6, but I recall it being tricky.
> 
> The 129 spl is a good number to know


That number may be different with your microphone.  But, at least its a starting point.  The only impedance measuring in REW does not match the data sheets very closely though.


----------



## kkugel

swtnate said:


> That number may be different with your microphone.  But, at least its a starting point.  The only impedance measuring in REW does not match the data sheets very closely though.


It does match the datasheets very closely, but calibration needs to be dead accurate and you need a really good sound card. You also need to use identically measuring wires and plugs for that measurement. I use a 0.01% tolerance precision resistor for this as well. The results I get are +- 0.25 ohms of Datasheets


----------



## Wgibson

I also made an impedance jig, that calibration is tricky too in REW, but I got good results and can test zobels:


----------



## swtnate

Wgibson said:


> I also made an impedance jig, that calibration is tricky too in REW, but I got good results and can test zobels:


I did get SOME pretty good results.  BUT, not close enough to the impedance graphs that knowles shows.  So, idk what's going on there.  I'm looking into getting into SoundCheck for their hardware and software applications.


----------



## swtnate (Oct 19, 2021)

Wgibson said:


> I also made an impedance jig, that calibration is tricky too in REW, but I got good results and can test zobels:


Here's my 2389 impedance measurement. It's close... btw, there is no smoothing.  Smoothing just makes you feel good about it. lol


----------



## swtnate

Wgibson said:


> I also made an impedance jig, that calibration is tricky too in REW, but I got good results and can test zobels:


it also seems the phase data is WAY off.  don't know how to really get that reading correctly.


----------



## swtnate

I have three pair of the round SR Knowles driver that is a balanced armature BUT is designed to replace/ "upgrade" from a dynamic.  My question... How in the world are you supposed to get the sound from the armature to the ear canal?  There is no spout and just like a tiny .5mm hole in the center.... any advice would be of some help.


----------



## Wgibson

swtnate said:


> I have three pair of the round SR Knowles driver that is a balanced armature BUT is designed to replace/ "upgrade" from a dynamic.  My question... How in the world are you supposed to get the sound from the armature to the ear canal?  There is no spout and just like a tiny .5mm hole in the center.... any advice would be of some help.



I used heat shrink tubing - shrink a portion of it but use the non shrunk part to hold the driver. Or you can get aluminum driver holders made for dynamic, with a tube spout. Cheap enough, but you still have to wait for them to arrive.


----------



## swtnate

Wgibson said:


> I used heat shrink tubing - shrink a portion of it but use the non shrunk part to hold the driver. Or you can get aluminum driver holders made for dynamic, with a tube spout. Cheap enough, but you still have to wait for them to arrive.


Or, I could 3D print it…..


----------



## kkugel

Anyone got ear impression scans into Autodesk Fusion yet? It worked for my left ear, but my right ear has some very tight creases, which makes the T Spline Faces intersect when thickening it, I cannot convert it to a body :/
I converted my STLs to quad meshes with Blender, this way Autodesk can convert it to T-Spline.


----------



## mattmatt

swtnate said:


> I have three pair of the round SR Knowles driver that is a balanced armature BUT is designed to replace/ "upgrade" from a dynamic.  My question... How in the world are you supposed to get the sound from the armature to the ear canal?  There is no spout and just like a tiny .5mm hole in the center.... any advice would be of some help.


Plop the tube flat around the hole then apply adhesive. Make sure you use industrial grade adhesives tho.  

that's what I do with them.


----------



## swtnate

mattmatt said:


> Plop the tube flat around the hole then apply adhesive. Make sure you use industrial grade adhesives tho.
> 
> that's what I do with them.


For y'all to play around with if you so choose. lol.  That SR driver is so weird just gluing a tube flush... I felt better doing it with something like this.  I attached the STL and the IGES so y'all can foul with it however you like.  After you download them, change the extension from txt to either STL or IGES, same as with other components posted in here previously.


----------



## ForceMajeure

kkugel said:


> Anyone got ear impression scans into Autodesk Fusion yet? It worked for my left ear, but my right ear has some very tight creases, which makes the T Spline Faces intersect when thickening it, I cannot convert it to a body :/
> I converted my STLs to quad meshes with Blender, this way Autodesk can convert it to T-Spline.


Are you importing your impressions before or after the digital trimming process (via meshmixer f.e)?

I assume once trimmed and smoothed, the tight bends and creases should not be there so it would be less of a problem.
You can also use Instant Meshes (this is can be downloaded from github: https://github.com/wjakob/instant-meshes ) to transform the obj to quads before importing to fusion360.

Speaking of which if anyone is interested, there is a rather nice android/ios app for sculpting digitally I can recommend called Nomad Sculpt. Meshmixer is really the best and simplest tool for trimming but the sculpting brushes are lacking (no easy masking option as well as some brushes intensity, behavior and control is not that great). One could export midway processing from Meshmixer to Nomad sculpt to do some arrangements with brushes and import back in Meshmixer for final smoothing, thickening, hollowing etc...

Nomad sculpt learning curve is much lower than Zbrush or Blender and does the job. The brushes are good and using low values allow for small work to be done nicely. The 2 main brushes I recommend are flattening and smoothing. Flattening mainly used as a scrapping tool ( a bit like you would Dremel regular impressions). Flattening in meshmixer is rather bad and I never found a a good balance with it. There is a nice Scrape brush in Blender that is quite nice but Blender's learning curve is annoying...


----------



## swtnate

swtnate said:


> For y'all to play around with if you so choose. lol.  That SR driver is so weird just gluing a tube flush... I felt better doing it with something like this.  I attached the STL and the IGES so y'all can foul with it however you like.  After you download them, change the extension from txt to either STL or IGES, same as with other components posted in here previously.


Also, I made the ID of the sound spout coming off the SR to be equal to 1.14mm.  Wanna know why??? Cause I bought I thought I'd be smart and get those teeeeeny tiny dampers from Knowles.... Yeah they fit into nothing really and kinda fall apart when you look at them.  This gives me hope now. LOL


----------



## JEHL

Has anyone tried to implement bone conduction in a home made IEM before?


----------



## swtnate

Bone is a completely different listening experience.  You just kinda feel it as opposed to hearing it.  So, the frequency spectrums are all way different due to it mainly being solely conductive hearing.


----------



## kkugel

ForceMajeure said:


> Are you importing your impressions before or after the digital trimming process (via meshmixer f.e)?
> 
> I assume once trimmed and smoothed, the tight bends and creases should not be there so it would be less of a problem.
> You can also use Instant Meshes (this is can be downloaded from github: https://github.com/wjakob/instant-meshes ) to transform the obj to quads before importing to fusion360.
> ...


Thanks so much for the thorough advice! I used Blender to convert to quads now. This kinda destroys the sharpness of cuts, but I just plane cut them again in Fusion now


----------



## ForceMajeure (Oct 22, 2021)

kkugel said:


> Thanks so much for the thorough advice! I used Blender to convert to quads now. This kinda destroys the sharpness of cuts, but I just plane cut them again in Fusion now


I really don't recommend doing the trimming part in Fusion...I have no idea about the smoothing that way and what features of the ear it can crush along the way.

It's also usually computationally intensive, especially when importing raw scanned files (even more if not smoothed already) and converting quad to tspline>correcting errors>tspline to brep...It can crash easily depending on the quad counts.

The trimming, thickening and hollowing should be done with another software such as meshmixer. It's much easier then to import and play with.


You can easily close holes and repair the file with meshmixer using the inspector tool in the analysis section. Much easier than repairing while doing the quad to brep to tspline conversion in fusion. It will repair the bulk of errors and will leave you with potentially a small error count once imported in fusion, that will be easier to repair before the final tspline to brep conversion.

Once you are done with the the trimming and created the shells (that you could normally print at this stage), you could easily then convert to quads using Instant Meshes (you can control the number of quads and shapes with Instant Meshes to keep the features of your impressions as well).

Here is an example of an ear impressions that has been worked on via MM and another software for brushes as well as thickened and imported in Instant Meshes




 I can then use the target vertex count to allow for more resolution for the quad count with  higher subdivisions.
Here I have bumped up the vertex count and solved. Once extracting the mesh I use pure quad meshes and you can see the result




Here you can see the import in fusion




after a small repair job inside fusion that is the tspline result







The bulk of the work is actually trimming the raw impression in MM and other software to get a clean result.
It requires experience trimming in the physical realm especially if you want clean looking fp shapes and allow for enough space inside

I really don't recommend doing any kind of trimming inside fusion.


----------



## JEHL

I'd like to think that bone conduction works on the same principle as traditional hearing in that vibrations get turned into electrical signals that are fed to the brain to get processed into what we recognise as sound. The big differences being that:

1. The eardrum is not used much if at all. Instead the cranium does the job of transfering vibrations. Presumably this means not just each head may have a unique response to the frequency range, but different parts of the head may have different responses as well. Although since what I'd like to try is a DD+BC hybrid I assume this means the concha bowl is the part that will transfer the vibrations.

2. There's no air in between since this actuator want to rest as directly into the cranium as possible to achieve bone conduction... This presumably means measurement microphones won't do us any good here.

Am I just hopeless in the end?


----------



## ForceMajeure (Oct 22, 2021)

Bone conduction is a subject that is actually still undergoing some development in the hearing aid world. Usually it used when there is an issue with the middle ear (where small bones that transfer and amplify the mechanical energy from the tympanic membrane to the inner ear) not being able to transfer air conduction but the inner ear still works.

I have seen a few reviewers trying to measure the bone conduction effect on a frequency response with a regular mic. Unfortunately this is not the way to do it ...(although those bc application indeed had a very minimal impact on the actual sound but that's not the point).

You need an artificial mastoid to measure the vibration and convert it into an actual forced transferred that mimics the human skin and bone structure (there are solutions from B&K)... you can then convert the output to an actual dbspl graph. ofc it's like the iec711. it is a approximation of the avg human skin and bone but everyone is different.

The first issue you face is of course mechanical impedance mismatch when using a bc device inside a shell and not directly against the bone structure. This will vary depending the contact area, where it lands with each individual etc...so you'll have a hard time evaluate it's effectivity.

 It will vary between folks depending on how the shell rests against their skin and bone. Basically it's like not having a good seal with a tip...So the effect one would experience will be vastly different from the effect another one would depending on anthropomorphic features and matching with the shell. And that's assuming you've taken into account the optimal scenario.


----------



## Wgibson

You talking sonion bone conduction, or the big 1" (25mm) type? You could glue a big one on top of an iem faceplate and wire it up, see what happens.


----------



## kkugel

ForceMajeure said:


> I really don't recommend doing the trimming part in Fusion...I have no idea about the smoothing that way and what features of the ear it can crush along the way.
> 
> It's also usually computationally intensive, especially when importing raw scanned files (even more if not smoothed already) and converting quad to tspline>correcting errors>tspline to brep...It can crash easily depending on the quad counts.
> 
> ...


Wow nice, thx! I do trim in MM, i just do the last faceplate side cut in Fusion, so I can use less quads and still get sharp edges.


----------



## kkugel

ForceMajeure said:


> I really don't recommend doing the trimming part in Fusion...I have no idea about the smoothing that way and what features of the ear it can crush along the way.
> 
> It's also usually computationally intensive, especially when importing raw scanned files (even more if not smoothed already) and converting quad to tspline>correcting errors>tspline to brep...It can crash easily depending on the quad counts.
> 
> ...


I wonder how you make the cuts so clean as to get a clean FP shape, do you have any advice on that?


----------



## ForceMajeure (Oct 23, 2021)

kkugel said:


> I wonder how you make the cuts so clean as to get a clean FP shape, do you have any advice on that?


I am not sure exactly what you mean here, but if you mean the perimeter around to get the shape, then I just remove the bulk of impression material with raw cuts (and make solid) like I would do with a physical impression.

Then scrap around bits by bits with brushes like I would do with a rotatory tool. To match shapes for both sides I usually end up facing both impressions on top of each others (fp against fp, positioning is slightly complicated) to slowly scrap the material around the other one after I shape the perimeter of first one.

The first thing one should do when importing both raw impressions in MM is to position them side by side so they are more or less even and features on them are more or less at the same height (ears are not exactly symmetrical so experience come into play here). This is crucial to do before doing any cuts. Doing so will remove most guesses while trimming later on.


----------



## swtnate

soooo, real talk.  I've made a couple headsets lately that will not sit snugly in the 711 coupler.  What do you use in its place?  I've look all over Ali and nothing.  I have the Sonion attachment and the knowles one and the earphone one.  Any guidance?


----------



## mattmatt

swtnate said:


> soooo, real talk.  I've made a couple headsets lately that will not sit snugly in the 711 coupler.  What do you use in its place?  I've look all over Ali and nothing.  I have the Sonion attachment and the knowles one and the earphone one.  Any guidance?


what attachments do you have? 

What are you looking for?


----------



## ForceMajeure

Can anyone recommend an handheld uv curing light (dentists ones) that works for egger/dreve and lacquer etc...

The last one I had that was working great just gave up and I have just received a new one. but unfortunately this time around the UV led they use doesn't cure (since it doesn't cover the lower uv spectrum range). I suspect they started using cheaper UV led that are blinding blue but barely cure the proper range.


----------



## Lamim Rashid

Had a few quick questions related to BA choice. 

So I know of a manufacturers switching from sonion 38 + sonion 33 series ba drivers to sonion 38 + Knowles 31 series ba drivers for low/low-mid frequencies. They are keeping the rest of the high frequency range to 8 bellsing twfk ba drivers. So the only real change is the move from sonion 33 ba to Knowles 31 ba. What's the difference here, which one is actually better?

My next question is a separate question. I want to know which of the following configurations would cost more (a rough guesstimate since I don't know all the exact drivers used), assuming they use the same DD. 
Configuration A: 
2*Knowles RAD-33518 for high frequency 4*Sonion 2600 for mid frequency
1*10.2mm DD for bass
Configuration B:
2*Knowles twfk for ultra high frequency
2*sonion 2389 for mid-high frequency
2*sonion 37 series for mid-low frequency
1*10.2mm DD for bass

And a last bonus question since this one is the most subjective and depends on too many other variables, which of those two configurations do you guys think is best?


----------



## mattmatt

ForceMajeure said:


> Can anyone recommend an handheld uv curing light (dentists ones) that works for egger/dreve and lacquer etc...
> 
> The last one I had that was working great just gave up and I have just received a new one. but unfortunately this time around the UV led they use doesn't cure (since it doesn't cover the lower uv spectrum range). I suspect they started using cheaper UV led that are blinding blue but barely cure the proper range.


https://a.aliexpress.com/_mLJuPEe
Really really powerful.


----------



## ForceMajeure

mattmatt said:


> https://a.aliexpress.com/_mLJuPEe
> Really really powerful.


This looks crazy powerful.
What UV range did you get for this one (365nm)?

I know some slightly higher ranges can also penetrate darker colors and still manage to cure various types of resins and glues because the UV bleed covers more than a certain exact region on the spectrum (albeit with slightly less peak power but still good enough to cure). 

I wish I could find the same dentist handheld UV I had again and be sure they didn't skimp on the led inside without buying all of them. The fact that it was with a battery was nice and didn't get in the way. On the other hand it was its culprit as well before the led burned completely.


----------



## Xymordos

ForceMajeure said:


> Can anyone recommend an handheld uv curing light (dentists ones) that works for egger/dreve and lacquer etc...
> 
> The last one I had that was working great just gave up and I have just received a new one. but unfortunately this time around the UV led they use doesn't cure (since it doesn't cover the lower uv spectrum range). I suspect they started using cheaper UV led that are blinding blue but barely cure the proper range.




I use a USB one like this, but had to communicate with the seller on the wavelength:-
https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?sp...zXWPF&id=588991018059&ns=1&abbucket=14#detail

I use this uber powerful one for anything big:
https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1z09.2.0.0.bc062e8dKvKSY1&id=546912803167&_u=qkqv5el456e


----------



## ForceMajeure

Xymordos said:


> I use a USB one like this, but had to communicate with the seller on the wavelength:-
> https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?sp...zXWPF&id=588991018059&ns=1&abbucket=14#detail
> 
> I use this uber powerful one for anything big:
> https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1z09.2.0.0.bc062e8dKvKSY1&id=546912803167&_u=qkqv5el456e



That 2nd one looks over the top


----------



## mattmatt

ForceMajeure said:


> This looks crazy powerful.
> What UV range did you get for this one (365nm)?
> 
> I know some slightly higher ranges can also penetrate darker colors and still manage to cure various types of resins and glues because the UV bleed covers more than a certain exact region on the spectrum (albeit with slightly less peak power but still good enough to cure).
> ...


I use the 365nm one. I don't have problems curing dark colors with this one. Tho I use a different one for my clears because this is crazy powerful. 

What I did with my dentist's light pen is replaced the LED with a 365nm 3W SMD UV LED. That might work for you.


----------



## Xymordos

ForceMajeure said:


> That 2nd one looks over the top



Cure things at incredible speeds though!  I use it to cure the lacquer real quick.


----------



## ForceMajeure

mattmatt said:


> I use the 365nm one. I don't have problems curing dark colors with this one. Tho I use a different one for my clears because this is crazy powerful.
> 
> What I did with my dentist's light pen is replaced the LED with a 365nm 3W SMD UV LED. That might work for you.



Yes I am looking at that option as well. This is the led that was on the old one. Dual chip, I don't know if it is a 3w or 5w. I manage to measure the voltage drop and current just before it finally died. it was 3V and 500mA according to it is 1.5w (p=vi). My guess is that it's probably a 3w led in there 

This is the led on the old one and this is the the dual n mosfet near it probably to regulate the current, it says 996A






 




I have just dismantled the new one as well (also look to have 2 chips inside) and measured the voltage and current drop and it was also 3V 500mA. But this one has a different IC near the led, it says CN5711 which is a LED driver apparently. Can be set to up to 1500mA according to the datasheet. 
I need to dig into the datasheet to see what current it is currently set to 
the resistors near it are probably the way to control the constant current value. 



 





On the old one I was just using the 40sec option and it was good enough for curing anything (it probably cured most stuff before that but I just set it to the max).


----------



## ForceMajeure

Xymordos said:


> Cure things at incredible speeds though!  I use it to cure the lacquer real quick.


And get a good tan along the way


----------



## ForceMajeure (Oct 26, 2021)

Lamim Rashid said:


> Had a few quick questions related to BA choice.
> 
> So I know of a manufacturers switching from sonion 38 + sonion 33 series ba drivers to sonion 38 + Knowles 31 series ba drivers for low/low-mid frequencies. They are keeping the rest of the high frequency range to 8 bellsing twfk ba drivers. So the only real change is the move from sonion 33 ba to Knowles 31 ba. What's the difference here, which one is actually better?
> 
> ...


1st thing first. The right implementation is what matters and less about this exact ba versus that exact ba. Everything has to be taken into context to be compared and the way things are tuned as a whole package is what ultimately matters.

Assuming when you refer to Knowles 31 series maybe in your case those are equivalent to DTEC (which is kinda equivalent to sonion 33 series in term of vague fr coverage) Then there could be various reasons why those are in use instead of the sonion 33.

Maybe they found out that it has less of a 2nd peak that could help them achieve a better transition, or use a certain peak into their advantage, or  or maybe slightly different 1st peak, or slightly different lower mids and bass behavior etc..

Maybe they needed that certain 31 series to work with the rest of the drivers since it offered a certain impedance characteristic, extracting the spl and behavior they needed for the fr range it covers.
Maybe they had issues with sonion supplies and found an alternative that suited them.
Maybe the size of the driver or spout placement worked for them better inside the shell.
Maybe it's slightly cheaper and offers a similar or good result.

There can be a lot of reasons to why they've switched to a different driver. But all these are just assumptions and it's difficult to evaluate how the change exactly works for them.

Regarding your 2nd question
the 1st option might end up cheaper but it's close and can depend on bulk qty
*maybe you meant swfk then the 2nd one should be more expensive depending on the swfk version


Last question
On paper one could think the 2nd option is better because it has more different drivers but who knows...implementation is what matters.
There are more complications with the 2nd config especially using a twfk and 2389 together which is prone to more difficulties, maybe you meant swfk there, then that's different and then I might be inclined to go for the 2nd one as having more potential
But again who knows


----------



## tomekk

I think multi BA in diy is waste money. It's better to buy a $400 chifi than lose $200 for drivers without a background in either schematics or tuning. It's hard to tune, let assemble a project with 10 drivers, it's not worth it without years of reverse engineering. All BIG companies and their multi ba iems are based on a long reverse engineering, years of reshell service etc.


----------



## Wgibson (Oct 29, 2021)

Ok, the right side is all glued up, still working on the left. Needs sanding, lacquer, and more circuit design. Very promising frequency response so far. 

Soundlink 3d printed shell, 13mm dynamic with small orifice as a low pass, 10mm planar, knowles fed-26859 (ferrofluid and type 3 internal damped) no other dampers. Well, the shell has a hole for a knowles damper as a shell vent. I put it next to the planar to see if I can get a more open sound by adjusting damper values.

External 4 pin crossover, I can adjust FED high and sub low pass with capacitors. There is a bit more flexibility, but those are the main things.

Anyway, a few pics:


Spoiler








Edit: 3 bore, hand made planar adapter with heat shrink tube and bondic... yeah I need to start 3d printing.

And some frequency response options, with my single planar in there as a reference.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

tomekk said:


> I think multi BA in diy is waste money. It's better to buy a $400 chifi than lose $200 for drivers without a background in either schematics or tuning. It's hard to tune, let assemble a project with 10 drivers, it's not worth it without years of reverse engineering. All BIG companies and their multi ba iems are based on a long reverse engineering, years of reshell service etc.


And all those companies come out from here lmao

Designing iem is not hard if you have proper tools and right direction of designing
Soldering skill needs work though


----------



## Wgibson

I still have to assemble the left side, havent listened at all yet, but what do you think about these curves? New project is blue and/or purple, green is my old single planar.

Blue seems like a flatter harmon, purple I don't know what it will sound like, but looks very interesting. Brain rattling sub bass but if you look 100hz and above, typical v shape without any nasty peaks.


----------



## ForceMajeure (Nov 2, 2021)

Wgibson said:


> I still have to assemble the left side, havent listened at all yet, but what do you think about these curves? New project is blue and/or purple, green is my old single planar.
> 
> Blue seems like a flatter harmon, purple I don't know what it will sound like, but looks very interesting. Brain rattling sub bass but if you look 100hz and above, typical v shape without any nasty peaks.


Purple sure looks brain rattling like you said 
Blue might be slightly too scooped in the lower mids
Also it's hard to judge since you use the dayton mic and I am not sure if you've applied some kind of compensation for the pinna and up

What were those black IC you used up there on the fp?
How do you find the consistency between planar units thus far?


----------



## musmecca

Wgibson said:


> I still have to assemble the left side, havent listened at all yet, but what do you think about these curves? New project is blue and/or purple, green is my old single planar.
> 
> Blue seems like a flatter harmon, purple I don't know what it will sound like, but looks very interesting. Brain rattling sub bass but if you look 100hz and above, typical v shape without any nasty peaks.


Your work is brilliant!


----------



## Xymordos

ForceMajeure said:


> Purple sure looks brain rattling like you said
> Blue might be slightly too scooped in the lower mids
> Also it's hard to judge since you use the dayton mic and I am not sure if you've applied some kind of compensation for the pinna and up
> 
> ...



I'd like to know too actually, I found the planar matching to be pretty terrible.


----------



## Wgibson

I am not looking forward to matching the left side frequency response... I'll make more planar adapters until they match close enough. Then I will finally realize that I should be 3D printing already.

But the FED-26859 takes care of pinna very consistently, and actually a lot of the treble. I don't mind some variance 10k and up (questionable accuracy with imm6 anyway, but it is very repeatable so relative measurements do have value.) I think I've posted measurements of some common chifi stuff in the past, if anyone really wants to get the flavor of my current measurement setup, but it looks good enough so far. Need an iec711 pretty bad.

The black thing on top is a 4 pin, 1.27mm connector, crossover circuits are built externally. 2 caps and a resistor covers a wide range, but I can get as complex as I want with the circuit. Complete control would need the jack and all drivers pinned out directly, 8 pins. But I have more than adequate control with just 4 pins.


----------



## Wgibson (Nov 8, 2021)

No surprise, channel imbalance. Need to finish this project and move on, so it's all glued together now, physical tuning is done (except for shell vent.)

I need to measure each driver separately and figure out how to compensate with circuit design. 

Needs some sanding and a coat of lacquer, then we'll see how they look.

Edit: to address the comment about curve correction above 10k, no, this was as measured. I was using a really inefficient circuit to get that response from the FED-26859 and planar. Well, technically that response was always there, everything else was just a lot louder.

That is too sensitive to stick with for now, so I'm starting over on circuit design. First I build will be pretty flat, 100hz or so bass shelf, with a lot of treble rolloff above 6k or so. This will also be one of the most efficient circuits, so good starting point for a first impression when listening, finally... next day or so.


----------



## Wgibson

Ok. I am listening like this (see curve at the end.) It is temporary, my motivation ran low and I needed to start listening to these things. I have not troubleshot drivers yet, that takes more patience than I have at the moment.

The crossover circuit is, in a word, "elegant." This is just a 1uf cap as 26859 high pass. Didn't even measure them, but I think adjusting the exact cap value I can channel match better, for now.

Curve and pic:


----------



## Xymordos

Wgibson said:


> Ok. I am listening like this (see curve at the end.) It is temporary, my motivation ran low and I needed to start listening to these things. I have not troubleshot drivers yet, that takes more patience than I have at the moment.
> 
> The crossover circuit is, in a word, "elegant." This is just a 1uf cap as 26859 high pass. Didn't even measure them, but I think adjusting the exact cap value I can channel match better, for now.
> 
> Curve and pic:



You stuffed a 13mm DD in there?! Woah

Is that measurement from a 711? The treble seems to roll off super early.


----------



## Wgibson (Nov 9, 2021)

Look closer  imm6 in the photo. No dampers, it sounds brighter than I expected but I am also listening a little too loud, because it is easy to do. I would say that's a good sign.

And yes, I did. I can honestly tell you, there is only one way to fit those 3 drivers in that shell.



Edit: to the treble rolloff, yes. This is a temporary "easiest functional circuit." The previous curves were taken at the same volume, you can roughly see the db difference between them. Start at 20hz and just keep lowering db of everything else (except like 6k+ , the idea was to adjust to this level, which would be comparable to my single planar.)

So far I can say that bass shelf rising to about 15hz and not much less at 10hz, seems to have a lot of directional information. Some songs feel like your head is inside the drum set, but at the same time it is subtle... hard to describe, and makes me think some of my other curves would be insane. 

Take a close look at the graph scale, this is pretty flat overall. 

Dark but clean, I can hear really high cymbal details clearly, they're in the right locations but just not loud, comes out more at high volumes. It doesn't match reality, but does sound natural in a "comfortable to listen" way.


----------



## swtnate

ALRIGHT!  Im ready to move on from brushing on these lacquers.  The absolute BEST performing wise has been the clear shellac from luxaprint.  Man!!! No bubbles and resists attracting dust and dander.  Only thing, pretty dang expensive.  Twice the cost in some cases.  Also, I wish it built up more to offer a much tighter seal.  ANYWAY, Im ready to go the air brush route.  I have my air brush and my compressor.  

What are some tricks to get consistency correct, not create dry spray or orange peel, and getting lacquer into the nooks and crannies?


----------



## Aldo40

The lacquer should smooth itself like lake3 I imagine


----------



## swtnate

Aldo40 said:


> The lacquer should smooth itself like lake3 I imagine


The issue is viscosity of the coating.  Most people end up doing some sort of solvent reduction.  With each lacquer/ shellac, that solvent can vary.  Also, recommended air pressure settings to prevent dry spray, etc.  I'm very familiar with Lack3.  For what its worth, I loathe 99% of Dreve products.

Anyway, AIR BRUSH ANYONE?? lol


----------



## kkugel

swtnate said:


> The issue is viscosity of the coating.  Most people end up doing some sort of solvent reduction.  With each lacquer/ shellac, that solvent can vary.  Also, recommended air pressure settings to prevent dry spray, etc.  I'm very familiar with Lack3.  For what its worth, I loathe 99% of Dreve products.
> 
> Anyway, AIR BRUSH ANYONE?? lol


You could look up the material safety data sheet of Lack3, find its ingredients and determine suitable solvents this way


----------



## Wgibson

Has anyone tried warming the lacquer slightly, to reduce viscosity and allow more even coverage? Use awarm water bath maybe? I will be trying lac3 with a brush for the first time soon, wish me luck


----------



## swtnate

kkugel said:


> You could look up the material safety data sheet of Lack3, find its ingredients and determine suitable solvents this way


Problem you run into here is potential biocompatibility issues


----------



## swtnate

Wgibson said:


> Has anyone tried warming the lacquer slightly, to reduce viscosity and allow more even coverage? Use awarm water bath maybe? I will be trying lac3 with a brush for the first time soon, wish me luck


Yes.  The added heat gets the solvents in the lacquer to flash point super quick. Some of those solvents flash off at 75-80 degrees… hence the bubbles when trying to brush on.


----------



## Wgibson

swtnate said:


> Yes.  The added heat gets the solvents in the lacquer to flash point super quick. Some of those solvents flash off at 75-80 degrees… hence the bubbles when trying to brush on.



I understand what you're saying, but due to zero experience, I don't know if this is a good thing (flash before application so they don't bubble when curing) or a bad thing (warmer causes bubbles when curing)


----------



## kkugel

swtnate said:


> Problem you run into here is potential biocompatibility issues


Well there's plenty biocompatible polar and non polar solvents. I actually use ethanol instead of IPA for washing prints. Sadly I'm not russian, VodkaBuds are a business case


----------



## mattmatt

swtnate said:


> The issue is viscosity of the coating.  Most people end up doing some sort of solvent reduction.  With each lacquer/ shellac, that solvent can vary.  Also, recommended air pressure settings to prevent dry spray, etc.  I'm very familiar with Lack3.  For what its worth, I loathe 99% of Dreve products.
> 
> Anyway, AIR BRUSH ANYONE?? lol


Messaged you about airbrushing!


----------



## swtnate

Wgibson said:


> I understand what you're saying, but due to zero experience, I don't know if this is a good thing (flash before application so they don't bubble when curing) or a bad thing (warmer causes bubbles when curing)


The number one cause for excessive bubbling of the coating, in my experience, is exposure to the elements.  Every light in the room is releasing some sort of UV radiation.  Couple that with normal evaporation and minor issues start to creep.  Then, solvent flash happens and you just need to pack it.

The solvent, in every coating, is simply the carrier of the luggage so to speak.  All that SHOULD be left behind after polymerization and full cure, is hardened thixotropic resin/ coating.  Now, you add an adulterated solvent (Xylene or Xylol), Acetone, etc. That evaporation is not on par with the solvent carriers in the majority of UV lacquers in this industry.  The manufacturers of these products don't even offer much regarding what their products can do.  Everything is some big secret.  EVERY company in this industry acts like they've discovered something new and unique.  For example, I worked my tail off for a year to figure out how in the world these companies make agar colloids in mass scale and why in the world can't I figure out how to personally make my own that's not just jello and glycerine. To make it yourself takes time and patience.  rant over.  off my soap box.  #freetheindustryknowledge.


----------



## Wgibson

Sounds like solvent and atmospheric conditions are a secret combination for every resin, you can only gain through trial end error, so I am not surprised the information is heavily guarded. Facts of life


----------



## Aldo40 (Nov 12, 2021)

Personally.I’m no problem with drève lake 3 with brush. 5 minutes to turn in UV OFF, and then I turn on the UV, I’m no bubble it’s real mirror.

The problem is not the lacquers but it is mainly the preparation of the surface that is important.

I made glassing surfboards for about thirty years, most people encounter similar problems with their gloss, the problem is not the gloss but the preparation of the surface you can buy the most expensive gloss, it will not solve the problem.

I don’t use an aerograph I do everything by brush as on my surfboard
The main thing is to know your products well.
On this link, I did not use any gun or airbrush all is done by brush.
Just to tell you that flatness is the state of the surface it’s important for a successful gloss

http://alambic-surfboard.blogspot.com/2017/08/longboard-blunt-nose-96.html?m=1


----------



## Wgibson

I usually just make things work well, I don't make things look good. So I have some challenges ahead of me


----------



## swtnate

Wgibson said:


> Sounds like solvent and atmospheric conditions are a secret combination for every resin, you can only gain through trial end error, so I am not surprised the information is heavily guarded. Facts of life


Yes and no.  Example, theres not a ton of stock colors available any more for pouring resins.  Try asking a manufacturer, “where can I buy colorant to add to this resin?”  We are stuck playing guessing games with tattoo ink.  In the automotive


Aldo40 said:


> Personally.I’m no problem with drève lake 3 with brush. 5 minutes to turn in UV OFF, and then I turn on the UV, I’m no bubble it’s real mirror.
> 
> The problem is not the lacquers but it is mainly the preparation of the surface that is important.
> 
> ...


yes surface prep is important.  But certain coatings are prone to being more temperamental.  For example, cure Lack 3 on a white faceplate.  For all its forgiveness it does not contain enough UV inhibitor to prevent the burn out.  Nano Screen is pretty great too.  Its also a bit thinner.  However, same UV issue.  Yes. Anyone with enough experience can make almost any coating or resin look descent enough.


----------



## Aldo40

For yellowing on white shells indeed there may be some. I have 2 UV machines one with purple LEDs and others with white neon lights and the one with the most powerful purple LEDs can yellow the varnish, the other has a longer drying time but hardly yellows the varnish. White shells can be rotated under a direct glass bell in the sunlight


----------



## Aldo40

I did a test two days ago with a clear shell, lake3 varnish under Uv

Résine:detax freeprint mould and dreve lake3

url=https://ibb.co/sv6M4Yr]
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





[/url]


----------



## swtnate

https://www.uniquemelody.org/products/mason-fs

All I can say is, thats a lot of hardware in an earphone


----------



## swtnate

Group question:  what 3D printers are being used in this community with high rates of success?

Asiga is the dream.  FormLabs Form3 makes me nervous from from all the units on e-bay being sold for parts.  Do the comsumer models ( like the new 4K mono printers) perform any better?  The effort to dial in those printers is substantial and success is always a coin flip.  Just curios on some real world application.


----------



## mattmatt

swtnate said:


> Group question:  what 3D printers are being used in this community with high rates of success?
> 
> Asiga is the dream.  FormLabs Form3 makes me nervous from from all the units on e-bay being sold for parts.  Do the comsumer models ( like the new 4K mono printers) perform any better?  The effort to dial in those printers is substantial and success is always a coin flip.  Just curios on some real world application.


The precision from the consumer printers are really great for their price. 

I've seen OG photons, elegoo mars being used. Phrozen brand is also being used by some manufacturers. I forgot the manufacturer who posted their farm but i've seen these printers on their work table.


----------



## hoskoau (Nov 15, 2021)

Hi all,

I just got my ear impressions back and went to the McEar site to find the guide of how to cut them but it has been shut down.

I had previously worked off piotrus-g's example photo but its not loading anymore. Can anybody point me towards a guide of what to cut and how to clean them up.


----------



## Aldo40 (Nov 15, 2021)

@swtnate

for my part I use this

My first Elegoo pro mars 2K

then I went to Asiga freeform pro 2-75

and recently Elegoo Mars 3 mono 4K for the desktop:
















What I can say about asiga, as it is pro, this type of printer is used with its proprietary software (composer asiga), it is connected in network, I am in wifi at home. He’s smart and recognizes a lot of audio marks and dental resin.

the disadvantage, asiga resin trays are sold in 1/3/5/10 liters of memory, this means that there is a chip in the tray that calculates that you used 1 liter of parts (resin) and it turns off so you have to be changed.

take a 10 liters to be quiet. are all the same just the chips that are different.

But if you wanted a small efficient printer, I recommend the elegoo 3 March because it has a monochrome screen and a higher luminous power. The above shell that I posted is made with March 3 and the freeprint resin detax, this resin is intended for DLP printers like asiga, and well on March 3 that remains an LCD takes it well once found the right settings. On the elegoo mars pro with RGB screen it does not work well I failed to print a piece properly with resin detax freeprint.

So opt for a monochrome printer, Elegoo Mars 3 is really amazing.


----------



## swtnate

Aldo40 said:


> @swtnate
> 
> for my part I use this
> 
> ...


I got a photon S 3 years ago and its such an unpredictable machine.  The build plate leveling is whatever.  BUT, the Z axis is not reliable at all.


----------



## Aldo40

swtnate said:


> I got a photon S 3 years ago and its such an unpredictable machine.  The build plate leveling is whatever.  BUT, the Z axis is not reliable at all.


I don’t know anycubic, but anyway at elegoo I’ve never had a problem


----------



## Xymordos

Some update on what I've built recently - a 6 driver hybrid, using 4 dynamic drivers and a SWFK. Integrating the SWFK was really difficult. Results were pretty good though. It sounds very clear and spacious but a bit drier than what I'm used to. I'm used to a bit more mid-bass than this, but the sub-bass on this is satisfying and ear rattling!

Face plates were made with small pebbles of some sort, set in resin and sanded.


----------



## re23071998 (Nov 17, 2021)

completely new to all these.
any recommended "getting started" stuff?
im mainly interested with multi drivers, crossover etc


----------



## Wgibson

re23071998 said:


> completely new to all these.
> any recommended "getting started" stuff?
> im mainly interested with multi drivers, crossover etc



Where do you shop? Soundlink on aliexpress is one stop shop with good stuff, but if you get on taoba you can get some drivers for very cheap and start building without a lot of money being risked if you scrap something.


----------



## re23071998 (Nov 17, 2021)

Wgibson said:


> Where do you shop? Soundlink on aliexpress is one stop shop with good stuff, but if you get on taoba you can get some drivers for very cheap and start building without a lot of money being risked if you scrap something.


i could get stuff from taobao.
planning to build simple dual drivers setup.


----------



## LegendaryDuelist

Hello! First time here.
I'm starting my first ciem proyect, just had my ear impressions done so I'm very excited. Next step is choosing drivers, any recs for an easy and good sounding proyect? I have decent soldering skills, I was looking at the GV-32830 as an starting point, would that be good? I was reading about the MASM, are those still decent builds? begginer friendly?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

LegendaryDuelist said:


> Hello! First time here.
> I'm starting my first ciem proyect, just had my ear impressions done so I'm very excited. Next step is choosing drivers, any recs for an easy and good sounding proyect? I have decent soldering skills, I was looking at the GV-32830 as an starting point, would that be good? I was reading about the MASM, are those still decent builds? begginer friendly?


What do you want is the question and not if masm is decent or not

I think OG members can come up with build easily 

So, whats your soldering skill and what sort of sound you are after


----------



## LegendaryDuelist (Nov 24, 2021)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> What do you want is the question and not if masm is decent or not
> 
> I think OG members can come up with build easily
> 
> So, whats your soldering skill and what sort of sound you are after


Thanks for the reply, I would say my soldering skill is above average, I've done DIY proyects before, not iems tho. I wanna build something neutral/balanced but with a slight boost in mids and energy in upper mids, for a focus on female vocal music, decent bass would be a plus. Also, I contacted soundlink and seems like they don't sell the bs6 anymore, only the bs5 10025.

edit: I was reading the thread, any recipes with Sonion 38D1XJ? Neutral with bass boost and decent treble energy for female vocals? I like jpop


----------



## LegendaryDuelist

dhruvmeena96 said:


> What do you want is the question and not if masm is decent or not
> 
> I think OG members can come up with build easily
> 
> So, whats your soldering skill and what sort of sound you are after


Do you think I should go for the final 4 build or the Sonion 38D1XJ+Sonion 3300+Knowles ED29689 build if I wanna make a neutral bass boosted iem with slight energy/extra sizzle in upper mids for female vocal music/jpop? Thanks in advance


----------



## Wgibson

@LegendaryDuelist sounds like you're on the right track with 29689. One or two of those with a 38d1xj should be a good starting point.


----------



## LegendaryDuelist

Wgibson said:


> @LegendaryDuelist sounds like you're on the right track with 29689. One or two of those with a 38d1xj should be a good starting point.


Excellent! Any suggestions for tubing and dampers?


----------



## swtnate

hoskoau said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I just got my ear impressions back and went to the McEar site to find the guide of how to cut them but it has been shut down.
> 
> I had previously worked off piotrus-g's example photo but its not loading anymore. Can anybody point me towards a guide of what to cut and how to clean them up.


Im sure the youtube tutorial videos are still available.  I would check there.


----------



## Wgibson (Nov 24, 2021)

LegendaryDuelist said:


> Excellent! Any suggestions for tubing and dampers?



Closest I've built was a hybrid, but go big on the 29689 tube, 1.5mm ID or bigger could work too. 1mm ID on the 38dixj, damp per preference, but shouldn't need much on either, unless you want to heavily damp the 38d1xj for a lower bass shelf. It will be a lot louder than a single 29689. I'd zobel the 29689, add 2-3ohms series resistance (helps fill in the peaks between 2 and 5k) and high pass 200-800hz or something like that.  (Edit: this graph I crossed the 29689 higher for more of a V shape and better top end.) Can't comment much on tube length, so far I just use what I can get to fit.

Bondic or other UV glue to attach tubes.

This was with no dampers, ended up using just a screen/mesh type damper.



Spoiler


----------



## swtnate

Just a follow-up,  theres quite literally nothing better than air brushing pro3dure L-1.   So quick and so uniform.


----------



## swtnate

LegendaryDuelist said:


> Thanks for the reply, I would say my soldering skill is above average, I've done DIY proyects before, not iems tho. I wanna build something neutral/balanced but with a slight boost in mids and energy in upper mids, for a focus on female vocal music, decent bass would be a plus. Also, I contacted soundlink and seems like they don't sell the bs6 anymore, only the bs5 10025.
> 
> edit: I was reading the thread, any recipes with Sonion 38D1XJ? Neutral with bass boost and decent treble energy for female vocals? I like j
> 
> ...


----------



## swtnate

here's the latest project I've completed.  Pretty satisfied with the response curve.  This is a 6 driver config. using SWFK, TWFK and a Sonion 37.  The tweeter boost is not so "peaked" when listening.  I have to say, the 37 is very nice non-vented low-end dual driver.


----------



## Jerry-S

Does anyone have any experience using Variable Resistors/Trimpots to control the bass?
The AAW W500 AHMORPH uses one.
Im thinking about trying it out but don't know if im just wasting my time with it. I'd like to know user opinions.

Pics for reference.


----------



## Wgibson

Yeah, you need to measure FR every time you touch it. Combine with switches if possible. But IMO anything you can adjust after physically completing the IEM is absolutely worth it.

Can you describe the project?


----------



## swtnate

Jerry-S said:


> Does anyone have any experience using Variable Resistors/Trimpots to control the bass?
> The AAW W500 AHMORPH uses one.
> Im thinking about trying it out but don't know if im just wasting my time with it. I'd like to know user opinions.
> 
> Pics for reference.


Im about to build something similar.  JH has a bass boost in-line on the cable for select models.  Mine will be in-line as well.  They are great for getting sound  adjustment when EQ isnt available


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Any iem design related jobs someone wanna offer me

I am open to prototyping iem design and assist on crossover

Also, i am kinda back but my brain cannot think innovative enough nowadays

I am getting old (25years old)


----------



## Jerry-S

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Any iem design related jobs someone wanna offer me
> 
> I am open to prototyping iem design and assist on crossover
> 
> ...


Maybe you can help me figure out how companies are wiring up the DIP switches on there iems. 
For example, QDC anole V14, Thieaudio, Tansio Mirai to name a few use DIP switches to tune the sound by use of resistors and caps but I can't figure out exactly how they wire it to get sound in all settings.
What am I missing?
Is this diagram correct?


----------



## mattmatt

Jerry-S said:


> Maybe you can help me figure out how companies are wiring up the DIP switches on there iems.
> For example, QDC anole V14, Thieaudio, Tansio Mirai to name a few use DIP switches to tune the sound by use of resistors and caps but I can't figure out exactly how they wire it to get sound in all settings.
> What am I missing?
> Is this diagram correct?


When off, current flows thru a resistor and when on, it's connected parallel to the resistor so it bypasses it.


----------



## Jerry-S

mattmatt said:


> When off, current flows thru a resistor and when on, it's connected parallel to the resistor so it bypasses it.


So this wiring diagram is correct?
I dont see how it would be connected when in the ON position?
None of the contacts are touching so shouldn't it technically turn off the driver?


----------



## mattmatt

Jerry-S said:


> So this wiring diagram is correct?
> I dont see how it would be connected when in the ON position?
> None of the contacts are touching so shouldn't it technically turn off the driver?


probably something more like this. 






Or other configs. you can wire them up in different series/parallel configs. 

In your diagram, when you turn off all of the switches, the driver wouldn't be connected to the signal source.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

@mattmatt damm man you took away my client 

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahah


By the way

How you all guys doing

Also... What do you guys think of inductor as crossovers


----------



## Aldo40

dhruvmeena96 said:


> @mattmatt damm man you took away my client
> Also... What do you guys think of inductor as crossovers


I had tried to simulate inductances but the values are too huge for CMS, an example to make a DD fall, would have to go further than 1mh, the RC cells are less greedy and do the work as well I think.
I know that JH uses some of them in CMS, certainly on second-order filters on medium or high where the values usually remain much lower in//, but honestly I wouldn’t use them


----------



## swtnate

mattmatt said:


> When off, current flows thru a resistor and when on, it's connected parallel to the resistor so it bypasses it.


Whats the value in using dip switches?


----------



## mattmatt

swtnate said:


> Whats the value in using dip switches?


Switching over crossover points and sorts like that.

I created something back then with 4 tunings in 1 IEM. Can't actually remember. It was a special project for someone. It can be switched to a single BA, to Dual BA and Triple BA and an alternate tuning for the triple setup iirc.


----------



## Wgibson

swtnate said:


> Whats the value in using dip switches?



Why aren't all clothes "one size fits all" ? 

For me, it helps get some exposure/experience for different FR curves, and saves time deciding on what is the "best" single circuit for whatever new IEM you just made.


----------



## tomekk

dhruvmeena96 said:


> How you all guys doing


Still building projects


----------



## Jerry-S

mattmatt said:


> probably something more like this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you for this.
Yes, this is a likely configuration companies might be doing.


----------



## mattmatt

Jerry-S said:


> Thank you for this.
> Yes, this is a likely configuration companies might be doing.


if I'm not mistaken and iirc, this is what they did with the QDC Gemini, single switch. Either resistor in series with dual CI or by pass the resistor so the dual CI is directly connected to the source.


----------



## tomekk

mattmatt said:


> probably something more like this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Here you have a simple implementation of a two-position DIP switch but series. Without leaving empty positions too.


----------



## Choy Wei De

Anyone from Singapore or Msia? Used to make RAB-P myself. But got really busy with work and had no time to DIY or repair my own RAB-P. Willing to pay for your service to make a RAB-P.


----------



## mattmatt

Choy Wei De said:


> Anyone from Singapore or Msia? Used to make RAB-P myself. But got really busy with work and had no time to DIY or repair my own RAB-P. Willing to pay for your service to make a RAB-P.


What's a RAB-P?


----------



## Choy Wei De

It's an iem that uses Knowles rab 32257 driver, and tube setup using resonator and horn technique and using electrical component to create Zobel network.


----------



## Jerry-S

tomekk said:


> Here you have a simple implementation of a two-position DIP switch but series. Without leaving empty positions too.


Thank you very much.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

mattmatt said:


> What's a RAB-P?


https://www.google.com/search?q=hea...ndroid-google&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

Its famous cmon..............
LMAO


----------



## swtnate

Anyone care to share strategies or ways you mount your passive circuit components?  Ive done printed PCB aasembly, soldering directly to driver, soldering directly to the litz wire and floating them in the shell, adhering them to drivers after soldering to litz wires, etc.  I have a project that includes 7-10 components in the circuit.  The shell requested is transparent and high gloss.  I need a more organized approach to showcase a professional assembly appearance.  Am I missing something?


----------



## mattmatt

dhruvmeena96 said:


> https://www.google.com/search?q=hea...ndroid-google&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8
> 
> Its famous cmon..............
> LMAO


No idea what that is. LOL.


----------



## tomekk

swtnate said:


> Anyone care to share strategies or ways you mount your passive circuit components?  Ive done printed PCB aasembly, soldering directly to driver, soldering directly to the litz wire and floating them in the shell, adhering them to drivers after soldering to litz wires, etc.  I have a project that includes 7-10 components in the circuit.  The shell requested is transparent and high gloss.  I need a more organized approach to showcase a professional assembly appearance.  Am I missing something?


Only true black metal and soldering directly to the litz wire and floating them in the shell. 

Check old @piotrus-g reshell design


----------



## piotrus-g

tomekk said:


> Only true black metal and soldering directly to the litz wire and floating them in the shell.
> 
> Check old @piotrus-g reshell design



Lolz hahaha


----------



## dhruvmeena96

mattmatt said:


> No idea what that is. LOL.


Sad.... You aint man of culture hahahahahha





tomekk said:


> Only true black metal and soldering directly to the litz wire and floating them in the shell.
> 
> Check old @piotrus-g reshell design


Old @piotrus-g is still a legend.... Its just that we aint able to see him since 2020 start

Hope this world come out of covid and then you gonna see some ultra super crazy project from him


----------



## mattmatt

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Sad.... You aint man of culture hahahahahha
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Probably was too busy with other stuff when those were created. LOL.


----------



## IndyAudio14

Does any body out there know the driver In a Ultimate Ears FI 4 earbuds I think  it's a Sonion driver


----------



## tomekk

Sonion 2354


IndyAudio14 said:


> Does any body out there know the driver In a Ultimate Ears FI 4 earbuds I think it's a Sonion driver


probably 2354?


----------



## swtnate

anyone ever experienced this:

RAB32257 - Wired in parallel
stacked on top of:
ED29689 - Wired in parallel w/ non-half coil
Then, attaching the stretched out #13 tubing over both spouts
#13 tube length = 14mm

Guess what happened....

complete low-end phase cancellation for BOTH drivers.


----------



## tomekk

swtnate said:


> complete low-end phase cancellation for BOTH drivers.


two options you can check, reverse RAB polarity and hi-pass ED with 2,2uF-220nF


----------



## kkugel

swtnate said:


> anyone ever experienced this:
> 
> RAB32257 - Wired in parallel
> stacked on top of:
> ...


Complete cancellation probably doesn't exist - you have a leak somewhere I guess


----------



## Jerry-S

So, I have been gluing tubing to the drivers using UV Nicefit and so far it has worked out alright.  But I hate having to hold the tube and the driver and lean over to hold it under the light until it cures.
I tried using CA instant glue but always get drips in bad places or fogging on the shells and drivers.
So I'm wondering what is everyone using as glue for tubing and fixing divers in the shells etc.?


----------



## Xymordos

Jerry-S said:


> So, I have been gluing tubing to the drivers using UV Nicefit and so far it has worked out alright.  But I hate having to hold the tube and the driver and lean over to hold it under the light until it cures.
> I tried using CA instant glue but always get drips in bad places or fogging on the shells and drivers.
> So I'm wondering what is everyone using as glue for tubing and fixing divers in the shells etc.?



I'm just using Loctite superglue actually.


----------



## swtnate

tomekk said:


> two options you can check, reverse RAB polarity and hi-pass ED with 2,2uF-220nF


Thats a


Jerry-S said:


> So, I have been gluing tubing to the drivers using UV Nicefit and so far it has worked out alright.  But I hate having to hold the tube and the driver and lean over to hold it under the light until it cures.
> I tried using CA instant glue but always get drips in bad places or fogging on the shells and drivers.
> So I'm wondering what is everyone using as glue for tubing and fixing divers in the shells etc.?


Loctite 3301.  I bought a small pocket UV flash light at a home improvement store.  I push the tube on the driver while having the light.  Its cured enough to stop holding it after 2-3 seconds.  Then i put the drivers in the cure box for 2 minutes.  You have to cut it off cuz you’re sure not pulling it off the driver.


----------



## Jerry-S

Xymordos said:


> I'm just using Loctite superglue actually.


I see that loctite makes some low-bloom, low fogging super glue. Which number do you use?


----------



## Jerry-S

Damn! And I thought Dreve a


swtnate said:


> Thats a
> 
> Loctite 3301.  I bought a small pocket UV flash light at a home improvement store.  I push the tube on the driver while having the light.  Its cured enough to stop holding it after 2-3 seconds.  Then i put the drivers in the cure box for 2 minutes.  You have to cut it off cuz you’re sure not pulling it off the driver.
> 
> ...


Damn! And I thought Dreve and Egger were expensive. 3301 is USD$50 for 25ml!


----------



## swtnate

Jerry-S said:


> Damn! And I thought Dreve a
> 
> Damn! And I thought Dreve and Egger were expensive. 3301 is USD$50 for 25ml!


I've had my ONE tube for 8 months.  I've made at least 40 pair and a BUNCH of prototypes.  Its in a syringe with a blunt needle tip.  It lasts forever and, aside for a newb mistake not recognizing it's differing viscosity, its has NEVER failed.


----------



## swtnate

Alright, somebody talk to me about RAB32257.  I have NEVER included it in any of my builds due to a BAD first impression when I first started in this racket. lol.  I KNOW there are some avid fans in here.  I know all about the Zobel, etc.  I'm just sitting here looking at the measurements between RAB32257 and the Sonion2389.  They're REMARKABLY similar.


----------



## Xymordos

Jerry-S said:


> I see that loctite makes some low-bloom, low fogging super glue. Which number do you use?



I use a regular one - 430 and 406. Bought a few to test them out and they're sorta similar.


----------



## Wgibson

Bondic, the little tube with built in LED for curing, very convenient. Holds well but will pull off if enough force is applied. It can also be re-glued if needed, if it pulls off accidentally.

It is fairly high viscosity, but still be sure to use a small amount at first, cure, then add a little more to the outside and cure again.



Spoiler


----------



## LegendaryDuelist

Any easy 2 driver builds? I got an extra pair of sonion 38d1xj00 7mi/8a, anything good to pair it with? I'm looking into making a bass boosted neutral set or a mildly v shaped with good vocals iem. Thanks!


----------



## swtnate (Dec 14, 2021)

LegendaryDuelist said:


> Any easy 2 driver builds? I got an extra pair of sonion 38d1xj00 7mi/8a, anything good to pair it with? I'm looking into making a bass boosted neutral set or a mildly v shaped with good vocals iem. Thanks!


Pair it with a 2389 or a knowles 29689 with a 4.7uf. You could also pair it with a TWFK.


----------



## Wgibson

38d1xj is already a dual driver, 29689 would make it triple. 30017 (dual) should work, pretty much any mid/high would work but 38d1xj will probably be too loud for most, Lpad it.

You could try to fit the other driver inside a zobel on the 38d1xj if the resistance works out. Then zobel that driver and you have pretty flat impedance.


----------



## Lamim Rashid

I remember seeing a chart with different brands listing ba model equivalents. Does anyone know where I can find it again? Thanks


----------



## Xymordos

Lamim Rashid said:


> I remember seeing a chart with different brands listing ba model equivalents. Does anyone know where I can find it again? Thanks


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jguxmYfEmZdHEGIUDvQUnfm3vhxo51WeNKKG0_oRtMA/pub?gid=0#

It haven't been updated in quite some time though.


----------



## Lamim Rashid

Xymordos said:


> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jguxmYfEmZdHEGIUDvQUnfm3vhxo51WeNKKG0_oRtMA/pub?gid=0#
> 
> It haven't been updated in quite some time though.


Sorry, but I didn't mean this list, not looking for iems and their ba models. I mean like there was a table posted here somewhere with like Knowles, bellsing, etc, model equivalents. Been trying to find it again with no luck


----------



## IndyAudio14

dhruvmeena96 said:


> https://www.google.com/search?q=hea...ndroid-google&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8
> 
> Its famous cmon..............
> LMAO





dhruvmeena96 said:


> It's easy to tune ED and CI
> Either you can do zobelception or tune them seperately(will help in both)
> 
> For TWFK
> ...


How to wire a twfk-30017 using it with a sonion 38d1xj007mi ..Please thank you


----------



## swtnate

IndyAudio14 said:


> How to wire a twfk-30017 using it with a sonion 38d1xj007mi ..Please thank you


Theres a number of different ways to wire them.


----------



## LegendaryDuelist

x2 Sonion 38D1XJ+33AJ00 7i/9+2389D or EST65DA01 for treble, any tips for crossover?


----------



## Lamim Rashid

Anyone know what drivers the lokahi or hekili uses? I haven't been able to find anything online that says


----------



## IEMbiker (Dec 18, 2021)

My first DIY. Single 13.7mm DD.








Here are the FR vs the KZ ZEX Pro. ( Red: ZEX Pro; Cyan: DIY)
Quality bass with a bit more mid bass, vocal is close and center, treble is bright but but shouty.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

IndyAudio14 said:


> How to wire a twfk-30017 using it with a sonion 38d1xj007mi ..Please thank you


Need to tune twfk first which is the hardest thing....

Depends on level of soldering complexities


----------



## Aldo40

IEMbiker said:


> My first DIY. Single 13.7mm DD.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Try a damper if you can pass it through the nozzle , start with a white for example and if it’s too loud you pass a brown or a green it should soften the top of the spectrum


----------



## LegendaryDuelist (Dec 20, 2021)

Is x2 sonion 38d1xj007mi/8a a bad idea? I'm following a build including 38d1x+33aj+2389d+est65, maybe as an ultra low sub? I wanna build an U shaped set with great bass, decent mids and brilliant treble. Also, the build says that the 2389d+est65 go in the same tube, how is it possible? Do I need to stretch a tube? Or merge two tubes? Thanks for any advice!


----------



## kahlund

Hi! 

Quick question to the people who 3d print their customs. How do you fit in the dampers if you integrate the tubes into the print? I see many twisting tubes and was wondering how difficult it is to achieve the correct distance within the tube.
Thanks!


----------



## Wgibson

Working on 4x full range vented drivers in series. Considering 2 with normal vents (standard damper that comees with the driver) 1 fully open, 1 sealed. To help even out the peaks.

Anybody try this before? Do you think this would create some problem I am not aware of?


----------



## arielsivan

Hello everyone.

I saw that they sell on AliExpress diy se846.  
I was thinking of buying them for their 16 drivers and putting them inside my CIEM.  In addition, there is no need to build a crossover ... 
Has anyone tried them?  I would love to hear your opinion

https://a.aliexpress.com/_uz049S


----------



## Xymordos

arielsivan said:


> Hello everyone.
> 
> I saw that they sell on AliExpress diy se846.
> I was thinking of buying them for their 16 drivers and putting them inside my CIEM.  In addition, there is no need to build a crossover ...
> ...



Don't do it, it'll sound like ass without proper tuning...


----------



## arielsivan

Xymordos said:


> Don't do it, it'll sound like ass without proper tuning..


And it does not come tuned?  There's a crossover there.  And they also show a response curve that looks very good ..

Are you still do not recommending?

What about buying the real drivers of se535?  
https://a.aliexpress.com/_vUyRos

I hade a bad experience with the bs6 .. I really did not like the result ..


----------



## Xymordos

arielsivan said:


> And it does not come tuned?  There's a crossover there.  And they also show a response curve that looks very good ..
> 
> Are you still do not recommending?
> 
> ...



I mean you said in your previous post that you're buying 16 drivers and stuffing them into a shell?


----------



## arielsivan

Xymordos said:


> I mean you said in your previous post that you're buying 16 drivers and stuffing them into a shell?


I meant, I'll take the drivers that come with the se856 (fake) headphones in the link. 

I make the shell, the tubing and the connectors etc ..


----------



## Wgibson

Not that good of a deal for those drivers, and there is always risk of destroying them when disassembling


----------



## LegendaryDuelist

Got a message from soundlink, seems like sonion is releasing a new est driver.


----------



## Tornbrand

Hello,
stupid question but does anyone have a usable tip to how i can fix the mmcx connector if ive made the shell "to small" with small i mean the area where the connector usualy are, the flat small surface. when i made the impression i didnt think of it and is just hit me. do i have anyway of fixing it or is it just to throw away the shells and make new ones?


----------



## Kulgrinda

For builders in Europe - not sure if this was already dicsussed, but our trusty material supplier Danny passed away, site mcear.de is no longer open. Very sad to see this information, this person helped a lot in starting this hobby. 

Follow up question - does anybody know where to buy fotoplast in small quantities in Europe? Google search did not give results, only options are to go directly to dreve and attempt to buy 500 ml for $$$ or get it from Soundlink, but that is not EU and import is applied which makes it expensive.


----------



## Aldo40

If you are a Pro, contact dreve and they will give you the nearest distributor from your home. I did so they gave me the coordinates and I supplied myself directly in my country. If you’re not a pro, SoundLink is a solution,. It’s not the cheapest but is better than nothing


----------



## Kulgrinda

Aldo40 said:


> If you are a Pro, contact dreve and they will give you the nearest distributor from your home. I did so they gave me the coordinates and I supplied myself directly in my country. If you’re not a pro, SoundLink is a solution,. It’s not the cheapest but is better than nothing


I'm not a pro, just dyi'er. At Soundlink 500 ml of fotoplast cost 220 eur including shipping. I don't need that much and to pay over 50 EUR for shipping is ridiculous. Where others are getting their materials from?


----------



## musmecca

Tornbrand said:


> Hello,
> stupid question but does anyone have a usable tip to how i can fix the mmcx connector if ive made the shell "to small" with small i mean the area where the connector usualy are, the flat small surface. when i made the impression i didnt think of it and is just hit me. do i have anyway of fixing it or is it just to throw away the shells and make new ones?


If this is a gel mold shell (sorry I don't print mine), I will take bondic or photoplast gel and put a drop inside the shell where the connector goes. I will cure it, then do it again, adding as many layers as i need to get my wall thickness where I want it. I will then shape with my dremel and continue as usual. I am also very generous with my bondic on the inside and outside of the shell.  One last tip, take your dremel and rough up the surface of your connector...notch it if you can. This helps keep your socket from spinning or backing out  in the future.


----------



## arielsivan

Hello again.  
I want to start a project with the BS6. I'm interested to boost the bass .. Which driver is recommended to match them?
does the MASM7 fit for that.

Or would you even recommend another project?  Interested in detail, soundstate and warm sound.  (Used only for listening to music. I'm not a musician) My soldering skils are fine, not an expert.  (I have done two bs6 + zoble so far).

Thank


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Kulgrinda said:


> For builders in Europe - not sure if this was already dicsussed, but our trusty material supplier Danny passed away, site mcear.de is no longer open. Very sad to see this information, this person helped a lot in starting this hobby.
> 
> Follow up question - does anybody know where to buy fotoplast in small quantities in Europe? Google search did not give results, only options are to go directly to dreve and attempt to buy 500 ml for $$$ or get it from Soundlink, but that is not EU and import is applied which makes it expensive.


i got to know this some days ago..............sad........
i used to get stuff from mcear.de 


arielsivan said:


> Hello again.
> I want to start a project with the BS6. I'm interested to boost the bass .. Which driver is recommended to match them?
> does the MASM7 fit for that.
> 
> ...


is this your first build, if not, then try learning ED29689 and its combination with tweeter where ED is on lowpass and tweeter is on highpass
adding woofer to it is easier and might give you a really good build

if this is your first build, then do MASM series


----------



## arielsivan

dhruvmeena96 said:


> is this your first build, if not, then try learning ED29689 and its combination with tweeter where ED is on lowpass and tweeter is on highpass
> adding woofer to it is easier and might give you a really good build
> 
> if this is your first build, then do MASM series


Is't a GQ = ED+tweeter? There is a reason to go for other combination? (I'm not trying to challenge my self if not necessary.. while the build is stand for my expectations.. bass,soundstage and detail)


----------



## swtnate

eunice said:


> CI has a large amount of lower mids, but is slow and does not have a good bass below 50hz. But bass amount is most likely an issue with the fit, the BS6+Z has more than enough bass, it has much more bass than the GK.


I mean… CI isnt even marketed as a “woofer”. Lol.  CI sounds super clean.  Not efficient really but has a huge motor.  You can’t get that sound with any other type if driver.  Its a low-end driver not a sub.  This is like comparing a guitar amp to a bass amp. 😂


----------



## Kulgrinda

Kulgrinda said:


> For builders in Europe - not sure if this was already dicsussed, but our trusty material supplier Danny passed away, site mcear.de is no longer open. Very sad to see this information, this person helped a lot in starting this hobby.
> 
> Follow up question - does anybody know where to buy fotoplast in small quantities in Europe? Google search did not give results, only options are to go directly to dreve and attempt to buy 500 ml for $$$ or get it from Soundlink, but that is not EU and import is applied which makes it expensive.


Anybody else have ideas where to get fotoplast in smaller quantities? Does anybody have some spare clear and black-transparent for sale? Not looking for much, 50 ml each would set me up for couple of years probably, I have other colors and do not build that much.


----------



## swtnate

Kulgrinda said:


> Anybody else have ideas where to get fotoplast in smaller quantities? Does anybody have some spare clear and black-transparent for sale? Not looking for much, 50 ml each would set me up for couple of years probably, I have other colors and do not build that much.


I dont use dreve resins.  However, I do have ample amounts of pro3dure PR-1.  Its a 405nm resin opposed to the 365nm of fotoplast.  I feel it gives more detail and proper wall thickness, especially with small tighter canals.  Message me if your interested.  FYI - it’ll never fully cure in a 365nm device.


----------



## Kulgrinda

swtnate said:


> I dont use dreve resins.  However, I do have ample amounts of pro3dure PR-1.  Its a 405nm resin opposed to the 365nm of fotoplast.  I feel it gives more detail and proper wall thickness, especially with small tighter canals.  Message me if your interested.  FYI - it’ll never fully cure in a 365nm device.


Thank you for the offer. I honestly do not know my UV light length nor can find it in specifications (cheap chinese device), all I know I have no issues with fotoplast. So I will not risk with another brand of resin if it could potentialy be unusable.


----------



## Aldo40

.I use freeprint mould 405 detax, I also used other 405 resin but at the level of precision it is not all identical, the details are excellent with detax , it is not the case with other ultra clear that I have . Many make ultra-precise jewelry with lower resins like 385 -365 it seems more accurate from what they say and generally the materials are more expensive


----------



## swtnate

Kulgrinda said:


> Thank you for the offer. I honestly do not know my UV light length nor can find it in specifications (cheap chinese device), all I know I have no issues with fotoplast. So I will not risk with another brand of resin if it could potentialy be unusable.


Nicefit and the Egger pouring resin are also 365nm.  If you had a 405 lamp, alll those products would Over cure in 5-10 seconds.


----------



## kkugel

swtnate said:


> Nicefit and the Egger pouring resin are also 365nm.  If you had a 405 lamp, alll those products would Over cure in 5-10 seconds.


It's the reverse actually, 365nm is way more energy-rich than 405.


----------



## Mr.HiAudio

IEMbiker said:


> My first DIY. Single 13.7mm DD.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


do you made a 3d model of this shell?  and can you share on the forum ?


----------



## IEMbiker

Mr.HiAudio said:


> do you made a 3d model of this shell?  and can you share on the forum ?


my 3d modeling is at novice level. after print there are few place need to touch up.
Here is the link:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1Ns6b3GgX_ihzodDLmOlAC0NirY5YKjU4?usp=sharing


----------



## Mr.HiAudio

IEMbiker said:


> my 3d modeling is at novice level. after print there are few place need to touch up.
> Here is the link:
> https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1Ns6b3GgX_ihzodDLmOlAC0NirY5YKjU4?usp=sharing


Thank you so much !!!


----------



## Wgibson

I found 38D2XJ (2 is not a typo) for sale, taobao shop 358477481. It is either sealed, or probably has vents on the solder pad, hard to tell from the pictures. They also have the new est65dB01, but I can't find the datasheet to compare to est65da01, anybody have the new est65dB01 datasheet?

38D2XJ was used in shanling AE3, go look at the frequency response, huge bass shelf. The rest of the graph... a little strange. But you should be able to let the mid driver cross the bass shelf wherever you want, pretty easily.


----------



## arielsivan

Anyone have experience with the Langzhisheng store on AliExpress?  I think they make a crossover themselves for the drivers .. They provide a response curves that look very good.  The question is whether it can be trusted? 

langzhisheng Store
https://a.aliexpress.com/_vBh8Bj


Does anyone know these drivers? FWEK-317185
https://a.aliexpress.com/_vDV3Qd


----------



## Aldo40

The EST65DB01 and the new model it has a bit more gain. It will replace the E65TDA01


----------



## Wgibson

arielsivan said:


> Anyone have experience with the Langzhisheng store on AliExpress?  I think they make a crossover themselves for the drivers .. They provide a response curves that look very good.  The question is whether it can be trusted?
> 
> langzhisheng Store
> https://a.aliexpress.com/_vBh8Bj
> ...



I've used their dual 32257, no complaints, good value. 31736 is good. I really like their wires, they have lots of damper options also. Multiple purchases from that store, they also have a taobao shop, always satisfied when purchasing from them. Usually they will give you some wires and maybe dampers, if you order a few drivers. I got the FWEK-31718 but haven't used it yet.


----------



## swtnate

arielsivan said:


> Anyone have experience with the Langzhisheng store on AliExpress?  I think they make a crossover themselves for the drivers .. They provide a response curves that look very good.  The question is whether it can be trusted?
> 
> langzhisheng Store
> https://a.aliexpress.com/_vBh8Bj
> ...


These are essentially the Chinese bellsing drivers.  Ive used the FWEK and the TWEK.  They have performed very well!


----------



## swtnate

If youre gonna buy preassembled crossover PCB’s you might as well get the plug and play sets from knowles.


----------



## swtnate

Curious… for those that build customs for other people… do you notice that some people’s ear canals are different in structure making it REALLY difficult to gauge if the canal are cut equally?  Some people’s second bend on their right ear comes before the second bend on their left. (Vice versa). Does that drive anyone else nuts?


----------



## Xymordos

swtnate said:


> These are essentially the Chinese bellsing drivers.  Ive used the FWEK and the TWEK.  They have performed very well!



The FWEK should be from 1Audio/eAudio. They make good quality drivers though!


----------



## arielsivan

swtnate said:


> These are essentially the Chinese bellsing drivers.  Ive used the FWEK and the TWEK.  They have performed very well!


Can you describe how you used them?  What combination did you make and did you use a crossover or a zoble?

I'm trying to decide if I'm using them (because they have a really impressive FR) or should I go for MASM / Finale 2...


----------



## discus123 (Jan 17, 2022)

My 1st build hybrid IEM.  4 ways :  Low_10mm Dynamic Driver / Low mid_sonion 37ap / High mid_sonion 2389 / High_ Knowles 31736 . Total is 1 dynamic drivers with 5 BAs for each side. 
The parts in blue color is made by 3D printer. B4 what I do is to use cigaratte lighter heated the tube and stretch it, now all this parts done by 3D printer, more accurate and much easier without un-balance of FR. But still have a lot of things to learn.. Thanks for those guys in this forum who have help me on 3D printing !!!


----------



## dhruvmeena96

arielsivan said:


> And it does not come tuned?  There's a crossover there.  And they also show a response curve that looks very good ..
> 
> Are you still do not recommending?
> 
> ...


Also

You trust aliexpress crossover from diy 846
Not a really good start


----------



## swtnate

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Also
> 
> You trust aliexpress crossover from diy 846
> Not a really good start


No.  I do not trust the crossover. If you had problems with the BS6 I dont really know what to tell you.  Thats a very easy assembly that sounds really great.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

swtnate said:


> No.  I do not trust the crossover. If you had problems with the BS6 I dont really know what to tell you.  Thats a very easy assembly that sounds really great.


I mean to say diy 846 and not BS6
Though BS6 also needs a lot of work for my taste


----------



## swtnate

dhruvmeena96 said:


> I mean to say diy 846 and not BS6
> Though BS6 also needs a lot of work for my taste


Its a typical scooped signature.  If thats what you are looking for, then you would need to do a total DIY assembly.  Which is fine.  You jus have to test out the crossover components and drivers independently.  If you choose driver that dont work well together, you will struggle in long testing times, wiring configs, tubing lengths, dampers to use, etc.


----------



## swtnate

dhruvmeena96 said:


> I mean to say diy 846 and not BS6
> Though BS6 also needs a lot of work for my taste


Its a typical scooped signature.  If thats what you are looking for, then you would need to do a total DIY assembly.  Which is fine.  You jus have to test out the crossover components and drivers independently.  If you choose driver that dont work well together, you will struggle in long testing times, wiring configs, tubing lengths, dampers to use, etc.


----------



## TheLastAurora

So... how do you guys work with the soundlink shells? Does it need lacquer, nail polish or resin? I intend to get one but no idea on how to work with it.


----------



## Mart.oporto

Hi guys!  It's been more than two years since I entered the thread or did projects since I was very immersed in other things.  I quit my job because dates are popping up to play music and that is a great addition to my small but very enthusiastic career.  I recently broke my pair of GVs and want to put something new together.  It's been so long since I've been here that the last big project in this group was a new 6-way driver with a Zobel circuit that was generating a lot of love in the community.

  1- What interesting projects appeared since then?  Which one could you recommend me?  The use I want to give it is to listen to hifi music with a Chord Mojo and also to monitor myself on stage.  2- I'm thinking of not making the shells by pouring method but 3D printing.  There is a company in my country that provides the scanning service, but I wanted to know if the 3D scanner resins will be suitable for audiology.


----------



## Aldo40 (Jan 31, 2022)

TheLastAurora said:


> So... how do you guys work with the soundlink shells? Does it need lacquer, nail polish or resin? I intend to get one but no idea on how to work with it.


Hi, 
the soundlink shells, as with other shell it is necessary to sand them a can and then to pass a suitable varnish, above all it is not necessary nail polish! the first reason is that it is not permanent varnish, after a few weeks it will not hold, and the second reason is that the specific varnishes that are made for IEM are anti allergen, If you put iem + nail polish in the ears you will have a serious irritation problem!

The varnishes often used are Dreve lack3 or Egger lacquer.

the egger is a bit more fluid than the dreve, I test it currently it is really good, the finish is similar to lake 3


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Mart.oporto said:


> Hi guys!  It's been more than two years since I entered the thread or did projects since I was very immersed in other things.  I quit my job because dates are popping up to play music and that is a great addition to my small but very enthusiastic career.  I recently broke my pair of GVs and want to put something new together.  It's been so long since I've been here that the last big project in this group was a new 6-way driver with a Zobel circuit that was generating a lot of love in the community.
> 
> 1- What interesting projects appeared since then?  Which one could you recommend me?  The use I want to give it is to listen to hifi music with a Chord Mojo and also to monitor myself on stage.  2- I'm thinking of not making the shells by pouring method but 3D printing.  There is a company in my country that provides the scanning service, but I wanted to know if the 3D scanner resins will be suitable for audiology.


https://github.com/DhruvMeena/IEM-designs

here you go
but even these are old as per the thread (it's a separate community now lmao)
some dabbled with IEM planar drivers,
some making Harman tuned/ inspired tuning


----------



## Mart.oporto

dhruvmeena96 said:


> https://github.com/DhruvMeena/IEM-diseños
> 
> aquí tienes
> pero incluso estos son viejos según el hilo (ahora es una comunidad separada, lmao)
> ...


Can I know your name? My son will be named like you.


dhruvmeena96 said:


> https://github.com/DhruvMeena/IEM-diseños
> 
> aqui tienes
> pero incluso estos son viejos según el hilo (ahora es una comunidad separada, lmao)
> ...


----------



## Mart.oporto

dhruvmeena96 said:


> https://github.com/DhruvMeena/IEM-diseños
> 
> aqui tienes
> pero incluso estos son viejos según el hilo (ahora es una comunidad separada, lmao)
> ...


What's the best for a audiophile and the best for monitoring?


----------



## Mart.oporto

D


dhruvmeena96 said:


> https://github.com/DhruvMeena/IEM-designs
> 
> here you go
> but even these are old as per the thread (it's a separate community now lmao)
> ...


I have a series of many questions and I apologize right now for my ignorance but I have a couple of questions that don't let me sleep: 
1- Do you have photos of the resistors and capacitors you used?  Because with the same capacitance there are many sizes of capacitors.  Or at least tell me what voltage it carries, or the characteristics of the parts.  I am very sorry, I am still very ignorant in electronic parts.  
2- What are your favorite shopping pages?  I no longer see SoundLink on Aliexpress or the Spanish page on Taobao.


----------



## Aldo40

https://soundlink.fr.aliexpress.com/store/830007?spm=a2g0o.detail.1000007.1.2e133788EqFuoG


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Mart.oporto said:


> Can I know your name? My son will be named like you.


my name is Dhruv Meena


Mart.oporto said:


> What's the best for a audiophile and the best for monitoring?


For monitoring, try to follow curves like diffuse field or harman
if its audiophile, you need to listen to some other iem which deviates from reference iem and find what is your liking and then we can decide what tuning you like more


Mart.oporto said:


> D
> 
> I have a series of many questions and I apologize right now for my ignorance but I have a couple of questions that don't let me sleep:
> 1- Do you have photos of the resistors and capacitors you used?  Because with the same capacitance there are many sizes of capacitors.  Or at least tell me what voltage it carries, or the characteristics of the parts.  I am very sorry, I am still very ignorant in electronic parts.
> 2- What are your favorite shopping pages?  I no longer see SoundLink on Aliexpress or the Spanish page on Taobao.


get the smallest resistor which is comfortable with you with highest voltage rating, other member can help more on this topic
my favourite shopping page, ;(, I kinda left making iem so there is none, but soundlink is the best place for it, doesn't matter you are shopping from taobao or Ali


----------



## TheLastAurora

discus123 said:


> My 1st build hybrid IEM.  4 ways :  Low_10mm Dynamic Driver / Low mid_sonion 37ap / High mid_sonion 2389 / High_ Knowles 31736 . Total is 1 dynamic drivers with 5 BAs for each side.
> The parts in blue color is made by 3D printer. B4 what I do is to use cigaratte lighter heated the tube and stretch it, now all this parts done by 3D printer, more accurate and much easier without un-balance of FR. But still have a lot of things to learn.. Thanks for those guys in this forum who have help me on 3D printing !!!


How did you lowpass the DDs?


----------



## discus123

TheLastAurora said:


> How did you lowpass the DDs?


Dampers, tube diameter and tube length.  I like the small damper put into 2x1.0mm ID tube and on top of it insert 3.0x2.0mm ID tube.


----------



## TheLastAurora

discus123 said:


> Dampers, tube diameter and tube length.  I like the small damper put into 2x1.0mm ID tube and on top of it insert 3.0x2.0mm ID tube.


Have you tried an RC low pass with cap and resistor? Or you can't really do that because it will sound weird?


----------



## TheLastAurora

TheLastAurora said:


> Have you tried an RC low pass with cap and resistor? Or you can't really do that because it will sound weird?


I'm asking this because I ordered this DD: https://pt.aliexpress.com/item/3303...=glo2bra&spm=a2g0o.9042311.0.0.4e53b90am8ClfE  and a 2389D with creating hybrid in mind. I read somewhere here that damping too much the DDs reduce their dynamics, so I thought that L-pad + yellow damper (if necessary) would be a better idea. I really don't know about this stuff, sorry. I made a sketch, but I'm not sure if it would be something like that...

 I was pretty good at electrodynamics in college, but the last 5 years from there I've been doing completely non related studies hehe.


----------



## discus123 (Feb 1, 2022)

TheLastAurora said:


> Have you tried an RC low pass with cap and resistor? Or you can't really do that because it will sound





TheLastAurora said:


> I'm asking this because I ordered this DD: https://pt.aliexpress.com/item/3303...=glo2bra&spm=a2g0o.9042311.0.0.4e53b90am8ClfE and a 2389D with creating hybrid in mind. I read somewhere here that damping too much the DDs reduce their dynamics, so I thought that L-pad + yellow damper (if necessary) would be a better idea. I really don't know about this stuff, sorry. I made a sketch, but I'm not sure if it would be something like that... I was pretty good at electrodynamics in college, but the last 5 years from there I've been doing completely non related studies hehe.


I totally rely on IEC711 coupler, measure the FR and making the fine tuning, very time consuming.  I'm still a learner.  I think @dhruvmeena96 can answer your question, he is PRO


----------



## swtnate (Feb 2, 2022)

Anyone have experience using Smaart V8 with a professional audio interface? 

Recently bought this to sow up FR discrepancies between right and left ears for custom molded IEMs.  

https://millerai.com/shop/miemi-m-complete-kit

I am not familiar with Smaart and my understanding is that its dual-channel as opposed to the mono-channel ive been using for driver tuning (REW/ FuzzMeasure). I have a 7 year old Scarlett Solo.  I loathe the finicky mic-preamps included with them.  Any advice would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

discus123 said:


> I totally rely on IEC711 coupler, measure the FR and making the fine tuning, very time consuming.  I'm still a learner.  I think @dhruvmeena96 can answer your question, he is PRO


Oi oi oi
Bro lmao

@TheLastAurora 
About dynamics and dampers.. its kinda the thing that can you hear dynamics getting effected. Dynamics is ability to hear the difference between loudest and lowest note together and make sense out of it

About why i prefer doing RC and Even LC cross over on DD is to limit its signal and increase its power handling, which kinda give me more headroom for power

But you can use damper also, mostly you won't hear difference.. only where you go too loud and power is too much, thats where your DD will distort in damper spec and it wont in crossover spec

Best advice, use both
Best sound, dont use damper(but can you fit that much circuit)
Worst sound, too much damping on all the driver and not using crossover


----------



## mckpaul

Hello from Texas, been lurking here for about a year and reading...and searching...and reading. I've been collecting supplies/tools etc to make a set of iem's, or more accurately a set or two...or three. After a number or tries, I've got impressions that I'm happy with, trimmed and slow-dremmel sanded to the shape that I feel will render a good shell (had to teach myself not to over trim and sand in reference to where the faceplate goes).

Over the weekend I plan to make the clear investments with Specialty Resin Cast-a-mold silicone rubber and will be ready for a first test run of the UV Resin. I'll be using Fotoplast S/IO. I've read and searched and watched videos, but I wanted to confirm that I understand something correctly. I haven't seen any mention of using a releasing agent in the silicone molds prior to pouring the UV resin in the molds. I did read in a couple of threads that the shell comes out of the investment somewhat tacky or greasy, with various discussions of glycerin or alcohol baths and soap and water clean up. So if I under stand correctly, no releasing agent is needed, maybe because the Fotoplast cures with kind of a natural tacky outer shell finish that will release from the investment?

This site amazes me with the amount of content and great information. Also amazing is seeing discussion from people all over the world.


----------



## musmecca

The SUV s


mckpaul said:


> Hello from Texas, been lurking here for about a year and reading...and searching...and reading. I've been collecting supplies/tools etc to make a set of iem's, or more accurately a set or two...or three. After a number or tries, I've got impressions that I'm happy with, trimmed and slow-dremmel sanded to the shape that I feel will render a good shell (had to teach myself not to over trim and sand in reference to where the faceplate goes).
> 
> Over the weekend I plan to make the clear investments with Specialty Resin Cast-a-mold silicone rubber and will be ready for a first test run of the UV Resin. I'll be using Fotoplast S/IO. I've read and searched and watched videos, but I wanted to confirm that I understand something correctly. I haven't seen any mention of using a releasing agent in the silicone molds prior to pouring the UV resin in the molds. I did read in a couple of threads that the shell comes out of the investment somewhat tacky or greasy, with various discussions of glycerin or alcohol baths and soap and water clean up. So if I under stand correctly, no releasing agent is needed, maybe because the Fotoplast cures with kind of a natural tacky outer shell finish that will release from the investment?
> 
> This site amazes me with the amount of content and great information. Also amazing is seeing discussion from people all over the world.


The shell will release from the mold without any releasing agents. Be careful and take your time so as not to rip your form. There is a tacky/greasy layer called the "inhibition" layer that forms on the surface of the shell due to the presence of oxygen.  Simply place your shell in a clear glass of glycerin...make sure there are NO BUBBLES...as this will cause lines in your shell, then UV for another few minutes to cure the layer. Don't over cure as you can yellow the IEM and sometimes render it too brittle depending on coloration.  I use a paint can lined with an led strip for this part...


----------



## mckpaul

Thanks for the response and all good to know. That definitely reinforces what my assumptions were and makes me feel better about the process. The Fotoplast is kind of expensive, and I know I'll already have some experimenting to do with exposure times and will probably trash a few shells in the process, so that takes one more unknown out of the process.

I have a typical fingernail drying light with four 9w bulbs, it says it's 365nm, which I think matches the requirements of Fotoplast. I've also been reading up on the difference of 365nm vs 405nm lights. It seems 365 is a whiter light, at least visibly, and the higher you go the more purple the light becomes. I really like the layout of your light. Do you know the wave length of the LED lights you used, and do you know if it works on Fotoplast? (I already have the Fotoplast resin) Was it a strip of LEDs you did that with?

Also I just ran across a post by Shilohsjustice on page 279 (post #4176) mentioning that instead of dipping his impressions in while making the investment process, he instead started coating the ear impressions with Dreve Laquer and it creates a smoother surface in the investment than the waxed impression does which in turn makes a smoother finish shell.


----------



## musmecca

I bough the UV light strip off of ebay and my basic finish setup is a nail lamp like yours...I honestly can't remember the Nm wavelength.  I did drill a hole in the bottom of the nail setup...the little slide out tray, and put a mirror on a platform attached to a motor. It spins the shell/vestments until they cure, ensuring even finishes. I have not coated my silicone with laq, as I didn't have a spray rig to do it....I just happened to get one so I may try that to see. I had no problems with waxing regardless...just remember the colder the wax gets, the thicker the layer and the tighter the ultimate fit...the warmer and thinner, the smaller the wax layer and the looser the fit....I always got my wax temp precise and used the pink dental wax....


----------



## mckpaul

Yep, I also bought one of the little light powered rotating platform. Haven't done it yet, but plan to drill the hole in the foil covered bottom panel and raise the nail drier up on small wood blocks and put the rotating motor underneath and the platform inside. A mirror on the platform is a great idea, thanks for the tip.

Will keep the wax temp tip in mind as well. I'm just anxious to get to the point of getting a hand made UV shell in my ear to see how it fits lol

Thanks again for the input!


----------



## swtnate

musmecca said:


> I bough the UV light strip off of ebay and my basic finish setup is a nail lamp like yours...I honestly can't remember the Nm wavelength.  I did drill a hole in the bottom of the nail setup...the little slide out tray, and put a mirror on a platform attached to a motor. It spins the shell/vestments until they cure, ensuring even finishes. I have not coated my silicone with laq, as I didn't have a spray rig to do it....I just happened to get one so I may try that to see. I had no problems with waxing regardless...just remember the colder the wax gets, the thicker the layer and the tighter the ultimate fit...the warmer and thinner, the smaller the wax layer and the looser the fit....I always got my wax temp precise and used the pink dental wax....


Couple of things just so you can keep everything categorized correct.

bubbles in the glycerine will cause dimples in and on the inhibition layer.  Theyre a DEVIL to get out.  If it happens, better to just wait it out.  the bubbles will rise.

after the initial curing of the shell, be very gentle as to not break the the airtight seal between the shell and mold.  If that is disturbed too significantly and it hasnt had too much initial cure time, you will get ridges where the air pockets formed, forcing a recast or hella buff out work.

you can Dreve Lack B, silicone lacquer on all prepped impressions.  Spraying isnt necessary.  In fact, theres only 2 spray rated coatings in the industry.  I use Lack B in my work flow.  Looks something like this… 
1) i clean off my initial impressions with soap and water.  Then I dip it in 99% isopropyl and blow dry.

2) next, i dip the untouched impression into a 185°F (90°ish C) pot of YETI Perci-Dip.  Slow in and slow out with the impression.  Typically I go in canal first and out canal first.

3) then I duplicate the waxed impression using the Hydrocolloid recipe I posted.  I wax the impression to the bottom of a ceramic plate.  Then, i dip the top of a disposable coffee cup into the wax, placing the cup over the impression and sealing the cup to the ceramic.  By using YETI Dip, your colloid can be poured at 135-140° without effecting the mold, IF you let it cool it for 10-20 minutes.

4) once that is hardened out, i then shoot silicone impression material into the colloid creating an exact match to the original.  Its also MUCH easier to identify what needs to get buffed and what doesnt.  Once its all trimmed and buffed out, wash with soap and watef, dip in iso, and blow dry.  I let it rest for about a half hour to insure there is NO residual left behind.

5) once dry, I dip the impressions in Dreve Lack B And shake/ spin off the excess silicone coating.  Allow to dry for 45 minutes.  I put 3 dip coats of Silicone lacquer.

6) Final step is to wax the impression to the plate, place on the investment cuff, and pour in freshly mixed fotosil for a permanent casting of the ear piece shell.  Once poured, the investment is immediately placed into a pressure pot at 60psi to turn the airpockets into microscopic dots.

I wouldnt rely solely on silicone lacquer to smooth-out your impressions.  If you do, it WILL take at LEAST 12 coats.  Last time I counted.  

if you struggle with wax dipping, find another wax.  Ive used almost every type of parraffin candle wax I could find.  Every single type was way too thin or left drips at any temperature.


----------



## mattmatt

swtnate said:


> Couple of things just so you can keep everything categorized correct.
> 
> bubbles in the glycerine will cause dimples in and on the inhibition layer.  Theyre a DEVIL to get out.  If it happens, better to just wait it out.  the bubbles will rise.
> 
> ...


Wax used for denture making works wonders. 👌 Dip the trimmed impressions at 60C and you're golden. 

Tho I don't trim and wax my impressions now. I scan them and digitally model them and print them as "impressions" which I then pour my colloid to. Longer and more expensive process but a lot more repeatable.


----------



## mckpaul

"then I duplicate the waxed impression using the Hydrocolloid recipe I posted" - I've run across and read that post with the recipe. At the moment, I have some two part Specialty Resin Cast-a-mold silicone rubber that is supposed to be clear enough for UV light. 

I've read post for both vacuum and pressure for reducing bubbles in the investment material. I had kind of a humorous experience over the past weekend. Before finding videos on the proper way to apply vacuum to remove air ( let it rise up and then collapse in on itself ) I tried a vacuum experiment. I have an old pressure cooker and a vacuum pump for AC work and rigged up a vacuum chamber with hose and a valve and a vacuum gauge. However, in my inexperience and ignorance, I made several major mistakes. First, the Cast-a-mold takes 8 hours to cure, but the instructions said if it was heated to 150 degrees it would cure in about 30 minutes, but wasn't very clear about when to heat it. In hind site I realized what they meant heat the investment cups to 150 degrees after pouring to speed up the curing time, but I heated the two separate parts to 150 degrees prior to mixing and pouring. Then I thought I'd remove any possible bubbles from the investment material after pouring in over the impressions. So I put the impressions in the investment cups, mixed and poured the (incorrectly previously heated) Cast-a-mold over the impressions (investment cups filled all the way to the top), set the cups in my home made vacuum chamber (that of course doesn't have a window) and pulled it down to about 29 inches of vacuum and let it sit for about 3 minutes. Needless to say, the Cast-a-mold, that was already starting to thicken because it was heated, still managed to bubble up and out of the cups creating a big sloppy mess leaving the cups half empty and mounds of bubbly rubber all over the bottom of the chamber. It was frustrating but couldn't help but laugh at the outcome. Later when I found videos of degassing liquid silicone rubber and how it reacts under vacuum I realized the err of my ways.

Anyway, thanks for the input, you've both given me things to consider as I move forward.


----------



## swtnate

mckpaul said:


> "then I duplicate the waxed impression using the Hydrocolloid recipe I posted" - I've run across and read that post with the recipe. At the moment, I have some two part Specialty Resin Cast-a-mold silicone rubber that is supposed to be clear enough for UV light.
> 
> I've read post for both vacuum and pressure for reducing bubbles in the investment material. I had kind of a humorous experience over the past weekend. Before finding videos on the proper way to apply vacuum to remove air ( let it rise up and then collapse in on itself ) I tried a vacuum experiment. I have an old pressure cooker and a vacuum pump for AC work and rigged up a vacuum chamber with hose and a valve and a vacuum gauge. However, in my inexperience and ignorance, I made several major mistakes. First, the Cast-a-mold takes 8 hours to cure, but the instructions said if it was heated to 150 degrees it would cure in about 30 minutes, but wasn't very clear about when to heat it. In hind site I realized what they meant heat the investment cups to 150 degrees after pouring to speed up the curing time, but I heated the two separate parts to 150 degrees prior to mixing and pouring. Then I thought I'd remove any possible bubbles from the investment material after pouring in over the impressions. So I put the impressions in the investment cups, mixed and poured the (incorrectly previously heated) Cast-a-mold over the impressions (investment cups filled all the way to the top), set the cups in my home made vacuum chamber (that of course doesn't have a window) and pulled it down to about 29 inches of vacuum and let it sit for about 3 minutes. Needless to say, the Cast-a-mold, that was already starting to thicken because it was heated, still managed to bubble up and out of the cups creating a big sloppy mess leaving the cups half empty and mounds of bubbly rubber all over the bottom of the chamber. It was frustrating but couldn't help but laugh at the outcome. Later when I found videos of degassing liquid silicone rubber and how it reacts under vacuum I realized the err of my ways.
> 
> Anyway, thanks for the input, you've both given me things to consider as I move forward.


Just remember, try to use medical grade biocompatible products.  Never use UV nail polish and/or epoxies of any kind.  Im always here to help.


----------



## TheLastAurora

Whats the difference between the SWFK 31736 and the 61835?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

TheLastAurora said:


> Whats the difference between the SWFK 31736 and the 61835?


Both are same
One is used by Ultimate ears


----------



## swtnate

TheLastAurora said:


> Whats the difference between the SWFK 31736 and the 61835?


One is $5 cheaper on aliexpress


----------



## TheLastAurora (Feb 5, 2022)

Someone stepped on my BGVP VG4... So here are it's internals. It uses 2x green dampers, the 29689 and the 33518 is glued together in a 2mm ID and the 33AJ 1mm ID. Very interesting. Someone could try crossing these over and graphing to see if they match at all


----------



## Psypato92

TheLastAurora said:


> Someone stepped on my BGVP VG4... So here are it's internals. It uses 2x green dampers, the 29689 and the 33518 is glued together in a 2mm ID and the 33AJ 1mm ID. Very interesting. Someone could try crossing these over and graphing to see if they match at all


You can 





TheLastAurora said:


> Someone stepped on my BGVP VG4... So here are it's internals. It uses 2x green dampers, the 29689 and the 33518 is glued together in a 2mm ID and the 33AJ 1mm ID. Very interesting. Someone could try crossing these over and graphing to see if they match at all


Could you tell us how the switch is connected to the pcb and the components of this?? Please


----------



## TheLastAurora

Psypato92 said:


> You can
> Could you tell us how the switch is connected to the pcb and the components of this?? Please


Already close them, sorry :/


----------



## hoskoau

What's the correct technique to remove an impression from Agar. I've been using a dental tool but the impression doesn't come out easily and I've pulled the tool out of the silicone and sliced my finger a couple of times.

Also I've been heating the wax up to between 160-180f and I keep getting shardes of wax fall off the impression in the mould. Is this just related to not being able to extract the impression easily.

Thanks


----------



## musmecca

hoskoau said:


> What's the correct technique to remove an impression from Agar. I've been using a dental tool but the impression doesn't come out easily and I've pulled the tool out of the silicone and sliced my finger a couple of times.
> 
> Also I've been heating the wax up to between 160-180f and I keep getting shardes of wax fall off the impression in the mould. Is this just related to not being able to extract the impression easily.
> 
> Thanks


I  take the colloid out of the plastic form first....I can give a few squeezes and observe the seal being broken between my silicone and the colloid. I always rotate as I lever out. If you are having wax issues, use red dental wax...it is very elastic and doesn't flake.


----------



## Aldo40

I do the same, I turn in my fingers the agar mold so that the fingerprint detaches and then with a hook I remove the fingerprint


----------



## hoskoau (Feb 8, 2022)

musmecca said:


> I  take the colloid out of the plastic form first....I can give a few squeezes and observe the seal being broken between my silicone and the colloid. I always rotate as I lever out. If you are having wax issues, use red dental wax...it is very elastic and doesn't flake.


Thanks that makes a lot of sense to release it.

I've been using Dreve paraffin dipping wax, it's listed as having a processing temp of 75degC. Maybe because I'm not releasing before attempting to pull it out I'm putting too much pressure on the wax


----------



## swtnate

hoskoau said:


> Thanks that makes a lot of sense to release it.
> 
> I've been using Dreve paraffin dipping wax, it's listed as having a processing temp of 75degC. Maybe because I'm not releasing before attempting to pull it out I'm putting too much pressure on the wax


I have had THE WORST amount of frustrations during my time dealing with paraffin/ candle waxes.  Even the ”red dipping wax” from both dreve and aliexpress gave me nothing but headaches.  I switched to using dental denture dipping wax.  It has a really melting temp so you can pour your colloid at a much warmer temperature equaling less bubbles in the negative.  I have put mine in the pressure champer at 4bar with really good results when things get a little weird for no reason.


----------



## mckpaul

I have a couple of questions about the Knowles GV-32830 quad driver. I'm a bass player, so my primary use would be stage monitor as opposed to high fidelity. I've read where the 32830 has a good mid/vocal range and the bass isn't terribly strong, and I assume this would be for the basic damper setup of White 680 on the tweeter and Brown 1000 on the lows. I also see that the quad driver has four back vents with removable seals... 1 tape and 2 screws.

So for a build using only these drivers but wanting a more full bass sound (being a bass guitar player) but not excessive and boomy, what should I do with the vents, leave closed, open some, open all? And/or would changing the damper(s) to some other color/value help?

I'm going to ask one more question that may expose my ignorance or make some of you highly technically trained audio guys cringe, so don't slam me too hard....but, if wanted to use two of these quad drivers on each side, being identical driver setups each with their own built in crossover, other than a lower impedance, would there be any realized audio benefit to doing this? Would it sound the same, or better or worse?

Oh, one more question...and this may come back to the vent comments above...during the build and without the face plate installed (basically open shell), I know the shells should seal in the ear canal, so once wired the monitors could be listened to, I suppose just to make sure everything is working before sealing things up. But I'm going to assume that without the face plate being installed and having a completely sealed shell that the monitors won't sound right, probably be lacking bottom end?


----------



## musmecca

hoskoau said:


> Thanks that makes a lot of sense to release it.
> 
> I've been using Dreve paraffin dipping wax, it's listed as having a processing temp of 75degC. Maybe because I'm not releasing before attempting to pull it out I'm putting too much pressure on the wax





hoskoau said:


> Thanks that makes a lot of sense to release it.
> 
> I've been using Dreve paraffin dipping wax, it's listed as having a processing temp of 75degC. Maybe because I'm not releasing before attempting to pull it out I'm putting too much pressure on the wax


Make sure you release...depending on how many shells I'm making, I will put my colloid back into the plastic form before pouring resin, as i don't want to rip my colloid pulling multiple shells out. Last, wax does make a difference...I use the rite dent as it is very flexible and doesn't flake...


----------



## swtnate

mckpaul said:


> I have a couple of questions about the Knowles GV-32830 quad driver. I'm a bass player, so my primary use would be stage monitor as opposed to high fidelity. I've read where the 32830 has a good mid/vocal range and the bass isn't terribly strong, and I assume this would be for the basic damper setup of White 680 on the tweeter and Brown 1000 on the lows. I also see that the quad driver has four back vents with removable seals... 1 tape and 2 screws.
> 
> So for a build using only these drivers but wanting a more full bass sound (being a bass guitar player) but not excessive and boomy, what should I do with the vents, leave closed, open some, open all? And/or would changing the damper(s) to some other color/value help?
> 
> ...


Installing 2 GV’s per side would have no frequency response benefit.  However, it will increase your headroom and allow for the drivers to be pushed harder without distorting.  GV has a great bass response registering down to 20Hz.  It leans darker in tonality.  So, if high end extension is important to you, you may want to look for another configuration.


----------



## hoskoau

musmecca said:


> Make sure you release...depending on how many shells I'm making, I will put my colloid back into the plastic form before pouring resin, as i don't want to rip my colloid pulling multiple shells out. Last, wax does make a difference...I use the rite dent as it is very flexible and doesn't flake...


Which colloid are you using?


----------



## musmecca

hoskoau said:


> Which colloid are you using?


I use the brand from lightning enterprises....doesn't shrink, very tough, and doesn't turn dirty brown with re-use.


----------



## swtnate

musmecca said:


> I use the brand from lightning enterprises....doesn't shrink, very tough, and doesn't turn dirty brown with re-use.


This will undoubtedly shrink.  All colloid does.  Its called weeping. You have to keep the negatives in a sealed container in the refrigerator.  I recommend casting your shells the day of.


----------



## swtnate

musmecca said:


> I use the brand from lightning enterprises....doesn't shrink, very tough, and doesn't turn dirty brown with re-use.


Also, Krystalloid is made by nobillum.  Lightning simply cuts it up and sells it in small quantities.  Krystalloid WILL amber.  Thats what comes with water evaporation.  If you just add water back to it OR add propylene glycol, it will return the clarity.  Ive reused colloid over 20 times.  Mist of the time cross contamination is what required you to toss the material, not repeated melting


----------



## TheLastAurora

How's the 38AJ007 for low mids? Haven't seen a build here using it yet.


----------



## mckpaul (Feb 11, 2022)

Still leaning toward the GV-32830 quad driver, but I'm finding conflicting information. The sources that sell it (Soundlink, Aliexpress, Digikey etc) all say in the description that it is a quad driver with a 3-way crossover, but looking at the pics and the spec sheet, no crossover is mentioned, and no apparent crossover circuit is visible, at least not in the form of small miniature circuit board like you sometimes see on multi driver setups.

However, looking at the pics I found on Aliexpress...


   the high frequency drivers look like they may have a couple of surface mount devices attached directly to the solder pads on the drivers.

Does anyone have experience with this driver? If so, do they have any kind of built in crossover components? The way sellers (Soundlink in particular) advertise it, they imply you only need to add dampers.


----------



## swtnate

mckpaul said:


> Still leaning toward the GV-32830 quad driver, but I'm finding conflicting information. The sources that sell it (Soundlink, Aliexpress, Digikey etc) all say in the description that it is a quad driver with a 3-way crossover, but looking at the pics and the spec sheet, no crossover is mentioned, and no apparent crossover circuit is visible, at least not in the form of small miniature circuit board like you sometimes see on multi driver setups.
> 
> However, looking at the pics I found on Aliexpress...   the high frequency drivers look like they may have a couple of surface mount devices attached directly to the solder pads on the drivers.
> 
> Does anyone have experience with this driver? If so, do they have any kind of built in crossover components? The way sellers (Soundlink in particular) advertise it, they imply you only need to add dampers.


Yes. The cross is built in.


----------



## mckpaul

swtnate said:


> Installing 2 GV’s per side would have no frequency response benefit. However, it will increase your headroom and allow for the drivers to be pushed harder without distorting. GV has a great bass response registering down to 20Hz. It leans darker in tonality. So, if high end extension is important to you, you may want to look for another configuration.


I may not do this as the realized advantage probably won't offset the expense, but earlier I asked about running two GV's per side. Since then I did some research on the minimum headphone impedance of my Shure body pack which is 16 ohms.

I have a set of Westone UM Pro30's (three drivers) that is 56 ohms 124dB SPL
I have a set of Westone UM Pro50's (five drivers) that is 45 ohms 115dB SPL (which as expected, all settings the same when listening and comparing, are not quite as loud)

The GV's impedance is 28 ohms, so if I did in fact run two in parallel, I assume the impedance would be half, so 14 ohms. They are rated at 116dB SPL

So 14 ohms would be a touch lower than the Shure body pack wants to see, and the battery would also not last as long, so, parallel is not a good option.
I _could_ go series on a pair of GV's, I assume would put make the impedance 56 ohms.

Any thoughts on how running series would affect the overall output and sound? Seems like running in series each one wouldn't be working as hard.


----------



## swtnate

mckpaul said:


> I may not do this as the realized advantage probably won't offset the expense, but earlier I asked about running two GV's per side. Since then I did some research on the minimum headphone impedance of my Shure body pack which is 16 ohms.
> 
> I have a set of Westone UM Pro30's (three drivers) that is 56 ohms 124dB SPL
> I have a set of Westone UM Pro50's (five drivers) that is 45 ohms 115dB SPL (which as expected, all settings the same when listening and comparing, are not quite as loud)
> ...


Impedance with balanced armatures will fluctuate tremendously.  So, its not as neat and tidy of a conclusion for you to draw.  Its also important to note that the impedance at which the drivers is tested will undoubtedly be different than that which they are played through.  Ifi makes a great product that matches insures consistent impedance across all devices and sources.  So, you could look into that.  Headfi rules prohibit marketing products outright on boards, for obvious reasons.  Long of the short, you could run 2 in parallel per ear without much of an issue.


----------



## mckpaul

All good to know. My impedance thought process comes from 25+ years spent working in the commercial low voltage world, installing intercom, local sound reinforcement, fire alarm etc. Dealing with 25 & 70 volt speakers (8 ohm speakers with transformers with multi-wattage taps), reading impedance is pretty accurate, reading different tap settings on one speaker or overall load on groups of speakers. But I fully understand, large (in comparison to balanced armature drivers) wire wound transformers and large 8 ohm speakers can probably more easily be manufactured to produce consistent reading results. And IEM drivers are a completely different animal. Similar concept of measurement, but complete different theory of operation  on a WAY smaller scale. So it makes sense the impedance on drivers would vary.

Learning as we go here.... thanks for the input!


----------



## swtnate

mckpaul said:


> All good to know. My impedance thought process comes from 25+ years spent working in the commercial low voltage world, installing intercom, local sound reinforcement, fire alarm etc. Dealing with 25 & 70 volt speakers (8 ohm speakers with transformers with multi-wattage taps), reading impedance is pretty accurate, reading different tap settings on one speaker or overall load on groups of speakers. But I fully understand, large (in comparison to balanced armature drivers) wire wound transformers and large 8 ohm speakers can probably more easily be manufactured to produce consistent reading results. And IEM drivers are a completely different animal. Similar concept of measurement, but complete different theory of operation  on a WAY smaller scale. So it makes sense the impedance on drivers would vary.
> 
> Learning as we go here.... thanks for the input!


Along with the frequency response charts that knowles has available, look at the data/ sales sheet for the impedance plot chart.


----------



## Wgibson

@mckpaul You can calculate the smallest db reduction lpad, like 2db. It will give you a small series resistor and big parallel resistor. 2 birds one stone, can add a little resistance to make sources happier, and it limits the impedance rise. Nowhere near as flat as a zobel circuit, but it helps a lot to limit impedance spikes. An option if you go 2 GV in parallel.

You might consider a Raf or rab in parallel with the GV, something full range.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Wgibson said:


> @mckpaul You can calculate the smallest db reduction lpad, like 2db. It will give you a small series resistor and big parallel resistor. 2 birds one stone, can add a little resistance to make sources happier, and it limits the impedance rise. Nowhere near as flat as a zobel circuit, but it helps a lot to limit impedance spikes. An option if you go 2 GV in parallel.
> 
> You might consider a Raf or rab in parallel with the GV, something full range.


in BA, Lpad kinda affects the FR


----------



## Wgibson

You'd have to do some measuring and adjusting, yeah. Dayton imm6 is cheap and can get the job done.


----------



## seckarales

mckpaul said:


> Still leaning toward the GV-32830 quad driver, but I'm finding conflicting information. The sources that sell it (Soundlink, Aliexpress, Digikey etc) all say in the description that it is a quad driver with a 3-way crossover, but looking at the pics and the spec sheet, no crossover is mentioned, and no apparent crossover circuit is visible, at least not in the form of small miniature circuit board like you sometimes see on multi driver setups.
> 
> However, looking at the pics I found on Aliexpress...   the high frequency drivers look like they may have a couple of surface mount devices attached directly to the solder pads on the drivers.
> 
> Does anyone have experience with this driver? If so, do they have any kind of built in crossover components? The way sellers (Soundlink in particular) advertise it, they imply you only need to add dampers.


I have built 5 pairs with same driver - GV-32830, and all had after some time problem with loss of bass! Better go for other solution. Anyone else had same problems?


----------



## mckpaul

Wgibson said:


> You'd have to do some measuring and adjusting, yeah. Dayton imm6 is cheap and can get the job done.


Wow that's kind of cool. So if I understand, once it's set up and connected and running, I'm assuming the app generates a pink noise to send out the headphone output to the monitor, then uses the mic to listen to the monitor to compare it's output to the generated signal to create the graph?

I found a video of someone that had put a piece of tubing on the mic port to allow connecting it to an earbud output. For the purpose of building in ear monitors, I suppose for an accurate graph, what you'd need to attach to the mic is a complete unit, drivers in shell and shell sealed. It seems directly coupling just a bare driver to the mic would give you a graph for the driver, but how much does it change once it's enclosed and sealed in a shell?


----------



## mckpaul

seckarales said:


> I have built 5 pairs with same driver - GV-32830, and all had after some time problem with loss of bass! Better go for other solution. Anyone else had same problems?


I have not heard of that problem. I did an number of searches on this thread for that driver and didn't see complaints. On your 5 pairs, did you leave the ports closed or open them? Of course I have no idea if one way of the other could remotely cause this, just curious. Hopefully others who have used this driver will chime in.


----------



## swtnate

mckpaul said:


> I have not heard of that problem. I did an number of searches on this thread for that driver and didn't see complaints. On your 5 pairs, did you leave the ports closed or open them? Of course I have no idea if one way of the other could remotely cause this, just curious. Hopefully others who have used this driver will chime in.


It sounds like the adhesive used to attach the tubing was not 100% and had a leak somewhere.  Especially if it happened overtime.  Also, I had NOTHING but problems attaching the soundlink tubing to drivers.  It seems to not be totally pvc.


----------



## musmecca (Feb 14, 2022)

seckarales said:


> I have built 5 pairs with same driver - GV-32830, and all had after some time problem with loss of bass! Better go for other solution. Anyone else had same problems?


I think others may have alluded to this, but it is 95% of the time a adhesive problem.  If it sounds great, then once you start wearing it, you loose bass over time it is down to several culprits and they are adhesive based. 1) Make sure you use good adhesive on the BA to tube connection.  I test mine by putting a long piece of tubing into a foam insert then putting the foam insert into my ear...I use the end of the tube like a stethoscope and run it over my tube connections WHILE i am playing a signal through the BA. If there is a sound leak, you will hear it. Fill that leak up and check your work. If you don't have good connections and don't secure your BA's to the shell, they can vibrate loose over time. You will hear a "burp" or "fart" sound from your earpiece on occasion indicating this has happened. 2. Sometimes the faceplate will be bent when you apply pressure to stick it to the shell. Once dry, it will gap open...check the EDGE of your earpiece as these can open and reduce bass significantly. 3 Secure your components as well as your sockets...check they they don't move.  Simple!


----------



## GeneBush

Jerry-S said:


> I have a question.
> I have been using the standard hydrocolloid mixture when making a mold but its quite time consuming and tricky to get perfect consistency.
> Has anyone used either clear silicone or Dreve/Nicefit acrylic to make a permanent reusable negative mold?


Try some of the 2 component silicones at trollfactory. This is a German Company. It did great for me, bubble free and the mold remains the same. You must try new curing times cause it isn't totally clear.


----------



## mckpaul

musmecca said:


> If you don't have good connections and don't secure your BA's to the shell, they can vibrate loose over time


About securing drivers to the shell, I can totally see why they'd need to be secured to the shell to prevent movement that could cause eventual tubing connection leaks, but does it matter if it's a 'hard' attachment to the shell (like UV resin or a hard epoxy) or a 'soft' attachment to the shell (like RTV silicone)?
It probably doesn't matter, but since they work based on vibration, I was curious if a 'hard' attachment transferred any vibration to the shell either affecting the sound or possibly being annoying to the ear canal, or if a 'soft' RTV silicone glue down might dampen the sound in some way by absorbing vibrations. Seems like an RTV silicon type attachment might provide some cushion from possible damage from impact.

I guess in a nutshell, is the final sound you hear simply 100% what is coming out the end of the shell?


----------



## musmecca

mckpaul said:


> About securing drivers to the shell, I can totally see why they'd need to be secured to the shell to prevent movement that could cause eventual tubing connection leaks, but does it matter if it's a 'hard' attachment to the shell (like UV resin or a hard epoxy) or a 'soft' attachment to the shell (like RTV silicone)?
> It probably doesn't matter, but since they work based on vibration, I was curious if a 'hard' attachment transferred any vibration to the shell either affecting the sound or possibly being annoying to the ear canal, or if a 'soft' RTV silicone glue down might dampen the sound in some way by absorbing vibrations. Seems like an RTV silicon type attachment might provide some cushion from possible damage from impact.
> 
> I guess in a nutshell, is the final sound you hear simply 100% what is coming out the end of the shell?


I use bondic to adhere my components to the shell.. Regarding the sound, yes MOST of your sound will be from the end of the earpiece but any loss of seal due to bad fit (if you can hear clear outside noises with your IEM's in place) will result in a LOSS of low frequency...again your bass will suffer.


----------



## mckpaul

Oh absolutely. That's exactly what put me on the path to custom iem's. I have some universal fit Westone UM Pro30s (that I love by the way) that come with a variety of tips. The little rubber cup tips never work for me, I like the roll up, insert and let them expand tips. On those, my ears required the largest size that came with them. But I noticed if I turned my head just  right or opened my mouth too far I'd loose the seal, and the bottom end as well. Their largest foam tip was 15mm on the large end of the tapered tip (toward the outside) Apparently I have large ear canals that are just about the same size at the tips. I found that if I installed the tips on the monitors backwards with the wide end pointing inward I could get a nice seal that wouldn't break. However the foam tips for the Westone have a little plastic tube glued in them that fits the monitor stem. To put them in backwards, I had to carefully scrape the foam tips off the plastic tubes and then put the tube back in the wrong end of the foam with some RTV sealant. It worked fine, just a major pain. I'd have to buy a set of 5 pairs of tips and modify the set, and of course they wear out. So that wasn't a sustainable option.

I searched the web for foam tips larger than 15mm and came up dry. I ran across Earplug superstore who can make custom tips that fit my UM Pro30s and my ear canal, and started down that path with their ear impression kit with green impression material, but before I got as far as ordering, I found this thread. I'm very much a DIY kind of guy, tools anywhere from small clock repair tools to engine lifts and hydraulic presses, and a career in commercial audio with years on my tools and now in design, so here I am, up to my ears in a new adventure that's taking far longer than I anticipated....all for the loss of low frequency lol And I'm a bass player, soooo... gots to have my low end in my ears.

When I started diving off into this, I thought 'this will be a piece of cake', and I have to say, I've found every step of the process has tiny hidden things you don't think about, or that require time, research, unusual material to secure etc. And I haven't even scratched the surface on individual drivers and crossovers etc. Other than wanting to build ONE custom set right now with the Knowles quad driver, I have a couple of other UM Pro30s that I plan to carefully open and surgically transfer components to custom shells with new MMCX connectors.

On a side note, this thread has been WONDERFUL for learning before doing by reading what others have tried and why it did or didn't work. I'm _really _trying for the first build to be something useful instead of an 'oh crap' and end up having to crack it open for modifications or start over.


----------



## hoskoau

Do many use the blue and red wax filters on their DIEMs? If so how do you mount them, I've seen a video where a small ring holder is glued onto the end of the tube but can't find anywhere that sells them.


----------



## mattmatt

hoskoau said:


> Do many use the blue and red wax filters on their DIEMs? If so how do you mount them, I've seen a video where a small ring holder is glued onto the end of the tube but can't find anywhere that sells them.


I think a standard 2mm ID tube would work.


----------



## Vetseun

Has anyone had any experience with how long impressions last / can be re-used?  I built a set of iems a couple of years ago with GV... Today I accidentally pressed my MMCX connector into the shell... so I have to remake.  I stored my impressions in an airtight container.  I fit them again just now.  They still feel like they fit well - they feel comfortable and I get a good seal... Anything I should be aware of before I try and remember how to make shells again?

Oh, and what's the shelf life of fotoplast?  I have a 100ml bottle that's been left completely sealed in a brown glass bottle, kept inside a drawer and out of the light.  The consistency of the liquid inside the bottle still seems normal.  Should I expect any curing issues?


----------



## swtnate

hoskoau said:


> Do many use the blue and red wax filters on their DIEMs? If so how do you mount them, I've seen a video where a small ring holder is glued onto the end of the tube but can't find anywhere that sells them.


The HF-3 rings are discontinued, in the US you can source the HF-4 or the Phonak gaskets from Warner.


----------



## swtnate

mattmatt said:


> I think a standard 2mm ID tube would work.


They wont.  The filters snap in and out.  You COULD 3d print the gaskets


----------



## ForceMajeure

Vetseun said:


> Has anyone had any experience with how long impressions last / can be re-used?  I built a set of iems a couple of years ago with GV... Today I accidentally pressed my MMCX connector into the shell... so I have to remake.  I stored my impressions in an airtight container.  I fit them again just now.  They still feel like they fit well - they feel comfortable and I get a good seal... Anything I should be aware of before I try and remember how to make shells again?
> 
> Oh, and what's the shelf life of fotoplast?  I have a 100ml bottle that's been left completely sealed in a brown glass bottle, kept inside a drawer and out of the light.  The consistency of the liquid inside the bottle still seems normal.  Should I expect any curing issues?


Ear impressions can keep their shape for 2-3 months and often more but it depends on the quality and type of the silicone used. Some can hold their shape longer, some  less. It also depends on the climate and humidity swings. 

Why not use the current ciems as mold before breaking them? I would do that just plug the holes with blue tak and pour the colloid over like you would do over waxed and trimmed ear impressions. Also make yourself an extra pair of shells while at it for future work to use as molds.


Fotoplast is good for a year or more at least.


----------



## mattmatt

swtnate said:


> They wont.  The filters snap in and out.  You COULD 3d print the gaskets


really? i have someone I made ciems tell me that their's work. from InEar prophile 8 tho.


----------



## HAMS

Hi, are there Knowles equivalent of sonion 2354?


----------



## piotrus-g

HAMS said:


> Hi, are there Knowles equivalent of sonion 2354?


https://eu.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Knowles/ED-26821-000?qs=3unH/Dqlvl83R9ri2b4rvg==  probably


----------



## l33333on

Hi. I want to build the MASM 6 Circuit because I cant find a way of buying the Bellsing 10013 6 way drivers, but the bellsing 5 way ones. Am I right that I can just swap the Bellsing 10013 with the 5 way one in the circuit above? I also heard of not venting the RAB 32063. What does that mean? Do I just have to cover the venting hole of it?


----------



## onewiththecrab

Would having the tubing twisted like this cause problems? I'm trying to reduce the size as much as possible


----------



## onewiththecrab

l33333on said:


> Hi. I want to build the MASM 6 Circuit because I cant find a way of buying the Bellsing 10013 6 way drivers, but the bellsing 5 way ones. Am I right that I can just swap the Bellsing 10013 with the 5 way one in the circuit above? I also heard of not venting the RAB 32063. What does that mean? Do I just have to cover the venting hole of it?


you can contact bellsing directly to buy them. they quoted me 50 USD each.


----------



## Wgibson

onewiththecrab said:


> Would having the tubing twisted like this cause problems? I'm trying to reduce the size as much as possible



For what it's worth, I did not see any frequency response change between a straight vs coiled 110mm long, 0.5mm ID brass tube. With sonion 3800 woofer, used as a low pass.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

hoskoau said:


> Do many use the blue and red wax filters on their DIEMs? If so how do you mount them, I've seen a video where a small ring holder is glued onto the end of the tube but can't find anywhere that sells them.


blue????

plus those are not wax filter but sound dampers to tune sound by adding acoustic impedance to the pipe
and control tube resonances and amount of damping by adjusting its place in the tube


----------



## l33333on

onewiththecrab said:


> you can contact bellsing directly to buy them. they quoted me 50 USD each.


mh, theyre not answering to my emails somehow... do you know other sites to buy the 6 driver ones?


----------



## arielsivan

Hi everyone.
Looking for a recommended build for live sound monitoring (as a singer)


----------



## onewiththecrab

l33333on said:


> mh, theyre not answering to my emails somehow... do you know other sites to buy the 6 driver ones?


not that I know of, most places stopped carrying bellsing after the lawsuit


----------



## l33333on

Has anyone a good way of cleaning the paraffin wax from the negative mould. I did not use agar agar, but silicon from trollfactory for it and was already able to clean most (95%) of the wax with some water. Is it a good idea to try hot or even boiling water? I dont want to ruin the form...


----------



## tomekk

freeze it in the freezer and crush


----------



## TheLastAurora

Any ideas for crossing 2389D and SWFK?


----------



## mattmatt

TheLastAurora said:


> Any ideas for crossing 2389D and SWFK?


That one would be bright AF in my opinion  

I'd start with full range 2389D with red damper and 2.2uf swfk with green damper.


----------



## swtnate

mattmatt said:


> really? i have someone I made ciems tell me that their's work. from InEar prophile 8 tho.


I have the Cerustop bushings and the HF-4.  Cerustop bushings look fantastic, but they fit into a #16 pvc receiver tube (2.16mm). The HF-4, I HAVE NO IDEA HOW TO INSTALL!!! LOLOL!!! Nick from Warnertech and I went ten rounds with those boogers to no avail.  In their installation instructions they mention a "tool" to use that they neither market or sell.  How every body else is installing them is anyone's guess.  BTW, getting the cuff installed is no big deal.  It's getting the tube through the cinch THEN plowing out the tube inside the sleeve without stripping the sleeve or breaking through the backside.  I tried at least 50 times, and absolutely NOTHING made any sense.  The HF-3 however, thats a different story all together.  Those were pretty much a no-brainer to install.  They were/ are considerably larger however.  Those are probably the ones you're referencing.


----------



## swtnate

ForceMajeure said:


> Ear impressions can keep their shape for 2-3 months and often more but it depends on the quality and type of the silicone used. Some can hold their shape longer, some  less. It also depends on the climate and humidity swings.
> 
> Why not use the current ciems as mold before breaking them? I would do that just plug the holes with blue tak and pour the colloid over like you would do over waxed and trimmed ear impressions. Also make yourself an extra pair of shells while at it for future work to use as molds.
> 
> ...


There are some silicones available now that can be used as both impression material and hearing aids.  Essentially equivalent to platinum silicones in retaining form through their lifetime.  However, for all things that are life, Biopor Extreme is a beast.


----------



## IndyAudio14

HI,CAN SOMEBODY HELP ME  WITH WIRING A BOURNS 100 OHM TRIMMER PVG3A101C01R00 TO A BA THANKS


----------



## l33333on

Can someone give me a schematic of the "new" MASM 7Z Circuit? @stephensynanta16 wrote: 
"
Add 10 ohm before BZ6's zobel: Mmcx - 10ohm - zobel - BZ6
Leave RAB out of those extra resistor.
"
Considering this "default MASM 7 Circuit":





What is meant by adding a 10 Ohm resistor before the bellsing 10013? Just update the 25 Ohm resistor to 35 Ohm, or add an additional 10 Ohm resistor just before the Bellsing 10013 positive solder point like this: ?




Another question: Should I put all 3 bores of the Bellsing 10013 in one 5mm OD 3mm ID sound tube with a white and a green damper like this: 



or should I go with this design from @dhruvmeena96:

"
Do BS6
TWFK grey damper@15mm (20mm lenght(2mm ID))
DTEC orange damper@10mm (20mm lenght(1mm ID))

Damper comes in small size so you can have small tube

And make RAB 30mm tube/2mm ID
Add resonator as it is
Dont change it
No damper


And use RAB32033
"

The other question: I want to use the dreve s/io fotoplast and want to make opaque white shells. Is this here fine to color the resin: https://www.ebay.com/itm/361395714212?var=630747153102&hash=item5424dcf8a4:g:7d4AAOSwEetWBJAO ?

Thank you very much


----------



## Wgibson

IndyAudio14 said:


> HI,CAN SOMEBODY HELP ME  WITH WIRING A BOURNS 100 OHM TRIMMER PVG3A101C01R00 TO A BA THANKS



Use a multimeter and the datasheet, find two tabs that change resistance when you move the dial, wire that in series with the BA on the + wire.

Source + --> trim pot--> BA +
Source "-" --> BA -


----------



## GeneBush

l33333on said:


> Has anyone a good way of cleaning the paraffin wax from the negative mould. I did not use agar agar, but silicon from trollfactory for it and was already able to clean most (95%) of the wax with some water. Is it a good idea to try hot or even boiling water? I dont want to ruin the form...


I use the same silicon...always used hot tap water to melt the wax. Never had problems with the silicone changing shape.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

l33333on said:


> Can someone give me a schematic of the "new" MASM 7Z Circuit? @stephensynanta16 wrote:
> "
> Add 10 ohm before BZ6's zobel: Mmcx - 10ohm - zobel - BZ6
> Leave RAB out of those extra resistor.
> ...


stephen already updated the whole design with me

and that's the final iteration of MASM7

but also, the shell is different and his final version needs precise 3d printed shell or tube measurement

if you are new in iem game, try the old masm 7
if you are more bold, try new MASM 7 by stephen


----------



## l33333on (Mar 10, 2022)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> stephen already updated the whole design with me
> 
> and that's the final iteration of MASM7
> 
> ...


is there somewhere a pdf or a conclusion of the latest masm7z / masm7 circuit with details of the correct dampers / tubes to use?
+ Do I have to close / open the vent of the RAB driver? Its pretty hard, for me as a newbie, to find all these informations in such a long thread.


----------



## swtnate

GeneBush said:


> I use the same silicon...always used hot tap water to melt the wax. Never had problems with the silicone changing shape.


I use the Dreve Fotosil.  Different but same. LOL!  I had to put mine in the oven.  the lowest temp mine went to was 170F (80-ish C).  But still, the pouring resin would never hold to the mold as it should.  The seal between negative and shell could never happen.  I wound up having to just toss and heat up the colloid.  such a waste of money.  That silicone is expensive too. lol.


----------



## swtnate

@piotrus-g   I have been reading up on the use of center taps in the industrial world and the area of guitar amplifers (rectifiers to be more precise.  In these instances, electrical transformer, tube amplifiers, radio frequency inductors, all three (+, Center, and -) can be used in certain applications.  Has anyone ever wired using all three solder pads?  Did you attach the center pad to negative or positive?  On the 2389D, If i run them parallel, both to center tap, only one of them will output sound.  IF i run one 2389 to center and the other to positive, both drivers push ample sound.  Any reason why?


----------



## piotrus-g

swtnate said:


> @piotrus-g   I have been reading up on the use of center taps in the industrial world and the area of guitar amplifers (rectifiers to be more precise.  In these instances, electrical transformer, tube amplifiers, radio frequency inductors, all three (+, Center, and -) can be used in certain applications.  Has anyone ever wired using all three solder pads?  Did you attach the center pad to negative or positive?  On the 2389D, If i run them parallel, both to center tap, only one of them will output sound.  IF i run one 2389 to center and the other to positive, both drivers push ample sound.  Any reason why?


Congratulations you now arrived at the core of flat impedance BAs solution  
Please note that since I hold the patent you cannot commercialize this solution in any way unless under license. Sorry to be mood killer.


----------



## GeneBush (Mar 10, 2022)

Hello guys!
Does anyone happen to know the values of the xover circuit on the bellsing 10013?


----------



## swtnate

piotrus-g said:


> Congratulations you now arrived at the core of flat impedance BAs solution
> Please note that since I hold the patent you cannot commercialize this solution in any way unless under license. Sorry to be mood killer.


I have been re-reading this for 5 minutes just to soak in its gloriousness. 😂😂. Is that a US patent or Euro patent… asking for a friend.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

piotrus-g said:


> Congratulations you now arrived at the core of flat impedance BAs solution
> Please note that since I hold the patent you cannot commercialize this solution in any way unless under license. Sorry to be mood killer.


so it took us like 5 years to understand what you were doing lmao


----------



## piotrus-g

swtnate said:


> I have been re-reading this for 5 minutes just to soak in its gloriousness. 😂😂. Is that a US patent or Euro patent… asking for a friend.


US, EU and China, I think we have still coverage in South Korea, Japan, Hong Kong but would have to look up when these will end.


dhruvmeena96 said:


> so it took us like 5 years to understand what you were doing lmao


Well 6 years lol. Other than that you could have just find the patent online and read the contents


----------



## dhruvmeena96

piotrus-g said:


> US, EU and China, I think we have still coverage in South Korea, Japan, Hong Kong but would have to look up when these will end.
> 
> Well 6 years lol. Other than that you could have just find the patent online and read the contents


well, that helped me do my own way of doing flat impedance which is very different plus new topology crossover....which is undergoing patent


----------



## l33333on

l33333on said:


> is there somewhere a pdf or a conclusion of the latest masm7z / masm7 circuit with details of the correct dampers / tubes to use?
> + Do I have to close / open the vent of the RAB driver? Its pretty hard, for me as a newbie, to find all these informations in such a long thread.


can someone help me on these questions? @dhruvmeena96 maybe  ? would really appreciate it


----------



## dhruvmeena96

l33333on said:


> can someone help me on these questions? @dhruvmeena96 maybe  ? would really appreciate it


i think everything is kinda mentioned in the image 
even wiring is simplified since this iem doesn't need pcb designing , just slap some circuit as mentioned and you are done
About RAB back vent, depends on your taste, if you need warm or brighter sound
opening the vent will make the sound warmer and closing the back vent will make it kinda leaner or brighter


----------



## l33333on

dhruvmeena96 said:


> i think everything is kinda mentioned in the image
> even wiring is simplified since this iem doesn't need pcb designing , just slap some circuit as mentioned and you are done
> About RAB back vent, depends on your taste, if you need warm or brighter sound
> opening the vent will make the sound warmer and closing the back vent will make it kinda leaner or brighter


thank you for the answer  but what about the additional 10 ohm resistor "before BZ6's zobel". Does this mean i have to change the 25ohm resistor of the bs6 zobel to 35 ohm or where do I have to put the resistor? @dhruvmeena96


----------



## CBTlover223 (Mar 13, 2022)

I found these 14mm planar drivers on taobao yesterday, they seem to be the same ones used the 7hz timeless. Currently about 380rmb or roughly 50 dollars for a pair. No information on FR or impedance that I could find on them yet.


----------



## CBTlover223

CBTlover223 said:


> I found these 14mm planar drivers on taobao yesterday, they seem to be the same ones used the 7hz timeless. Currently about 380rmb or roughly 50 dollars for a pair. No information on FR or impedance that I could find on them yet.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

l33333on said:


> thank you for the answer  but what about the additional 10 ohm resistor "before BZ6's zobel". Does this mean i have to change the 25ohm resistor of the bs6 zobel to 35 ohm or where do I have to put the resistor? @dhruvmeena96





copy this on circuit... its the same, but far easier to understand


----------



## l33333on

dhruvmeena96 said:


> copy this on circuit... its the same, but far easier to understand


thanks, but I still dont understand the additional 10 ohm resistor... ^^


----------



## CBTlover223

CBTlover223 said:


>


Im interested in trying out a est + planar hybrid build or a BA planar build if I can get my hands on some, but I dont have any experience tuning DD/Planar drivers. From what I understand, planars have better resolution than dynamic drivers, so a planar based hybrid should have more resolving bass/mid range when compared to DD, right?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

l33333on said:


> thanks, but I still dont understand the additional 10 ohm resistor... ^^


where is 10ohms


----------



## l33333on

dhruvmeena96 said:


> where is 10ohms


stephensynanta16 wrote:​
One more trick for MASM7:
u can try put a 10ohm resistor before BZ6's zobel, it'll reduce the loudness by about 5db on BZ6. It'll make the RAB more prominent.
It'll also increase the bass quantity if u're using 32033 or 32257, also shifting the tonality towards warm quite a bit.


----------



## CBTlover223 (Mar 14, 2022)

l33333on said:


> stephensynanta16 wrote:​
> One more trick for MASM7:
> u can try put a 10ohm resistor before BZ6's zobel, it'll reduce the loudness by about 5db on BZ6. It'll make the RAB more prominent.
> It'll also increase the bass quantity if u're using 32033 or 32257, also shifting the tonality towards warm quite a bit.


If you add a resistor in series with the bellsing drivers, it reduces their volume and changes the overall tone


----------



## l33333on

CBTlover223 said:


> If you add a resistor in series with the bellsing drivers, it reduces their volume and changes the overall tone


Oh well, that makes sense. Turns out I just didnt think enough lmao. Thank you all


----------



## CBTlover223

Hello, I'm trying to simulate the my new IEM design in vituixcad, but im getting this peak around 4-5k that Im trying to get rid of. I tried adding green and red dampeners but they dont seem to be doing much. Any advice would be appreciated.  


I am using a 38DJ007Mi/8a for the woofer, 2389D for the mids, and a SWFK for the top end


----------



## Xymordos

CBTlover223 said:


> Hello, I'm trying to simulate the my new IEM design in vituixcad, but im getting this peak around 4-5k that Im trying to get rid of. I tried adding green and red dampeners but they dont seem to be doing much. Any advice would be appreciated.
> I am using a 38DJ007Mi/8a for the woofer, 2389D for the mids, and a SWFK for the top end



Are you sure? A green damper should reduce it by quite a bit.


----------



## CBTlover223 (Mar 15, 2022)

Xymordos said:


> Are you sure? A green damper should reduce it by quite a bit.


Yes, It only reduced the first peak but the second peak at 3-4khz was still 8-10 db higher than what I wanted. Not exactly sure what I should do now. I didn't buy any higher value dampeners because I never thought I would need to use them.


----------



## CBTlover223

CBTlover223 said:


> Yes, It only reduced the first peak (there used to be a peak around 2k) but the second peak at 3-4khz was still 8-10 db higher than what I wanted. Not exactly sure what I should do now. I didn't buy any higher value dampeners because I never thought I would need to use them.


----------



## mattmatt

CBTlover223 said:


> Hello, I'm trying to simulate the my new IEM design in vituixcad, but im getting this peak around 4-5k that Im trying to get rid of. I tried adding green and red dampeners but they dont seem to be doing much. Any advice would be appreciated.
> I am using a 38DJ007Mi/8a for the woofer, 2389D for the mids, and a SWFK for the top end


how you tried measuring them in actual? green and red are actually aggressive dampers. 

anyhow, how did you get the files needed for the vituixcad or you used their trace tool?


----------



## Psypato92

which do you think is a better driver the knowles Rab 32033 or the sonion 26A007/9 to use as the only drivers, I speak of a somewhat fun sound


----------



## CBTlover223

mattmatt said:


> how you tried measuring them in actual? green and red are actually aggressive dampers.
> 
> anyhow, how did you get the files needed for the vituixcad or you used their trace tool?


I measured them with an IEC 711 + REW and imported them into vituix. The FR I was using was measured with a 10mm ID 1.5mm tube with a green dampener near the tip. I also have a set of measurements of the aforementioned drivers with just a 10mm long ID 1.5mm tube. I can post them here if you would like.


----------



## CBTlover223

CBTlover223 said:


> I measured them with an IEC 711 + REW and imported them into vituix. The FR I was using was measured with a 10mm ID 1.5mm tube with a green dampener near the tip. I also have a set of measurements of the aforementioned drivers with just a 10mm long ID 1.5mm tube. I can post them here if you would like.


Thats also why I was quite surprised with how the FR turned out after adding the dampeners. Judging from materials from sonion, knowles and the iem community, I expected the peaks to smooth out nicely.


----------



## Xymordos

CBTlover223 said:


> Thats also why I was quite surprised with how the FR turned out after adding the dampeners. Judging from materials from sonion, knowles and the iem community, I expected the peaks to smooth out nicely.



Is it possible to show a before and after graph?


----------



## mattmatt

CBTlover223 said:


> I measured them with an IEC 711 + REW and imported them into vituix. The FR I was using was measured with a 10mm ID 1.5mm tube with a green dampener near the tip. I also have a set of measurements of the aforementioned drivers with just a 10mm long ID 1.5mm tube. I can post them here if you would like.


Thanks! Haven't tried this method but seems like a good way to lessen the trial and error phase. I have to touch up with my vituix again.  played around it years ago. Were you using .frd files? 

May we also know your tubing configuration for each driver?


----------



## CBTlover223 (Mar 15, 2022)

2389D
10mm tube with red dampener 3mm from iec 



10mm tube, no dampening



Theres still that annoying 4k Hump that I cant seem to get rid of
Imported into vituix to make it more obvious:


----------



## CBTlover223

mattmatt said:


> Thanks! Haven't tried this method but seems like a good way to lessen the trial and error phase. I have to touch up with my vituix again.  played around it years ago. Were you using .frd files?
> 
> May we also know your tubing configuration for each driver?


REW doesn't let you export frd files so it needs to be exported as a txt, the vituix website has a guide on how to format it.


----------



## mattmatt

CBTlover223 said:


> 2389D
> 10mm tube with red dampener 3mm from iec
> 10mm tube, no dampening
> 
> ...


how about the swfk? what config are you running with it? tubing and damping?


----------



## CBTlover223 (Mar 15, 2022)

mattmatt said:


> how about the swfk? what config are you running with it? tubing and damping?


I haven't decided yet, I've just been trying to get rid of the issues with the 2389D. I think I'll just put a brown or green dampener on it to smooth it out a bit. The current measurement is just a swfk with a 10mm ID 1.5mm tube.


----------



## CBTlover223

CBTlover223 said:


> I haven't decided yet, I've just been trying to get rid of the issues with the 2389D. I think I'll just put a brown or green dampener on it to smooth it out a bit


If I remember correctly, the blessing2s have a red filter right next to the nozzle of its swfk, I might try that out and see how it goes.


----------



## mattmatt (Mar 15, 2022)

CBTlover223 said:


> If I remember correctly, the blessing2s have a red filter right next to the nozzle of its swfk, I might try that out and see how it goes.


but with the first vituix FR you uploaded, does it include the swfk?


----------



## Wgibson

You need to add resistance in front of the 2389d, and/or consider rewiring them to series connection with each other, instead of parallel. Anyone tried that?

There will be electrical interactions between drivers that can't be predicted very well, but you can use dummy drivers (wired in the circuit but not measured with microphone) to check that behavior one driver at a time. You still might get surprised with phase/cancelation problems later when you put them all together, so once you are sure the drivers will work together (curve, and fitment in the shell!) start putting one together and breadboard from there.


----------



## CBTlover223

Yes, both graphs include all drivers. I think I'll try wiring them in series first, then experiment with tube sizes a bit and see how that goes. If neither work, I'll order some higher value dampeners.


----------



## mattmatt

CBTlover223 said:


> Yes, both graphs include all drivers. I think I'll try wiring them in series first, then experiment with tube sizes a bit and see how that goes. If neither work, I'll order some higher value dampeners.


What damper are you using for the swfk?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

your issue is not the damper but two driver actually merging and creating a massive peak
change the blue tweeter crossover point


----------



## mattmatt

dhruvmeena96 said:


> your issue is not the damper but two driver actually merging and creating a massive peak
> change the blue tweeter crossover point


I second this.  You would also have to tame the swfk.


----------



## Xymordos

dhruvmeena96 said:


> your issue is not the damper but two driver actually merging and creating a massive peak
> change the blue tweeter crossover point



Yeah I agree, definitely lower the uf on the SWFK


----------



## CBTlover223 (Mar 16, 2022)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> your issue is not the damper but two driver actually merging and creating a massive peak
> change the blue tweeter crossover point


The SWFK measurement currently is practically a placeholder measured with a 10mm tube and no dampening. Even with the tweeter removed, there is still a 4dp bulge that I am trying to get rid of. I can't really tell what's causing it, but I think it might be something with the measurement setup since stacking a green and red dampener together didn't get rid of it. Although I don't have a good way of verifying it, I suspect that the adaptor that adapts the mic opening to the BA driver's nozzle (which is a 1mm ID x 8-9mm long aluminum tube) might be causing the peak since removing it seemed to help a lot.

Measurement with makeshift adaptor:



Stacked red + green dampeners


----------



## Psypato92

Hello good afternoon, I have been researching for quite some time here on the forum headfi, on Reddit, GitHub, other sources information for the creation of DIY or Custom iems, I found suppliers from SoundLink on Aliexpress, Corsan in England from. Bellsing, and the recently disappeared Mc Ear after that information of drivers, the faceplate the materials for the elaboration Aggar, resin, lacquer, glue, where I even found information about playing with the diameters of the tube plays an important role, the design as campfire proposes it of the taec even I developed hypotheses of how it works the acoustic chambers of Acoustune also apex of 64 audio, the fir audio technologies, it is incredible the amount of information I have found and for the following I came to several conclusions the most difficult to create in an iem is the crossover, it is not good to mix sonion and Knowles, the faceplate can be of great quality if you have suppliers like the M3 compositive that uses the noble Khan, the planar drivers perform in an outstanding way, it is better to use 2 pin than mmcx. The best brands in terms of technologies are 64 audio, Vision Ears, Lime Ears, Fit Ear I think they are better now my question is the following as they develop a crossover for a sound in U use a 1uf capacitor for the tweeter, in the middle put a 4.7 uf capacitor and bass put the same but with a resistor in parallel 2r2 or put a 10uf capacitor question would be for a sound in u and w?

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)


----------



## swtnate

CBTlover223 said:


> The SWFK measurement currently is practically a placeholder measured with a 10mm tube and no dampening. Even with the tweeter removed, there is still a 4dp bulge that I am trying to get rid of. I can't really tell what's causing it, but I think it might be something with the measurement setup since stacking a green and red dampener together didn't get rid of it. Although I don't have a good way of verifying it, I suspect that the adaptor that adapts the mic opening to the BA driver's nozzle (which is a 1mm ID x 8-9mm long aluminum tube) might be causing the peak since removing it seemed to help a lot.
> 
> Measurement with makeshift adaptor:
> 
> Stacked red + green dampeners


First off, you have to measure each driver while all wired together in circuit.  for example: a change in resistor to a sub driver will effect every other driver.  As you bring one down, another will jump up.  The 2389D  paired with a 38 is awesome.  I think the addition of SWFK is causing your bump.  That being said, i would run the 2389D and the 38 with 1mm ID probably at 12-15mm in length.  Then use 1.5-2mmID for the SWFK and place it as far away as you can.  Probably a 0.82-1uf capacitor.  Also, bare in mind some of these peaks are not present in the actual human ear.  So, if you have it really close, throw it in a shell and give it a listen.  Use an equalizer, like in iTunes, to see what frequency area needs pulling down.


----------



## swtnate

swtnate said:


> First off, you have to measure each driver while all wired together in circuit.  for example: a change in resistor to a sub driver will effect every other driver.  As you bring one down, another will jump up.  The 2389D  paired with a 38 is awesome.  I think the addition of SWFK is causing your bump.  That being said, i would run the 2389D and the 38 with 1mm ID probably at 12-15mm in length.  Then use 1.5-2mmID for the SWFK and place it as far away as you can.  Probably a 0.82-1uf capacitor.  Also, bare in mind some of these peaks are not present in the actual human ear.  So, if you have it really close, throw it in a shell and give it a listen.  Use an equalizer, like in iTunes, to see what frequency area needs pulling down.


PS - if using a series resistor for your 38, consider using an L-pad.  It will lower the volume AND prevent a HF bump.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

CBTlover223 said:


> The SWFK measurement currently is practically a placeholder measured with a 10mm tube and no dampening. Even with the tweeter removed, there is still a 4dp bulge that I am trying to get rid of. I can't really tell what's causing it, but I think it might be something with the measurement setup since stacking a green and red dampener together didn't get rid of it. Although I don't have a good way of verifying it, I suspect that the adaptor that adapts the mic opening to the BA driver's nozzle (which is a 1mm ID x 8-9mm long aluminum tube) might be causing the peak since removing it seemed to help a lot.
> 
> Measurement with makeshift adaptor:
> 
> Stacked red + green dampeners


to fix 4k, you need to adjust damper at a position in a tube where it dampens 4k effectively
for swfk, make crossover smaller in uF(high pass), so you can avoid fundamental swfk resonance at 4k

making tube longer will also move 4k resonance down to 3k, which might be acceptable


----------



## l33333on

Hey, considering the MASM 7 circuit, do you guys think this pcb design would be fine?
On the top left is the negative, on the bottom left the positive input. They are directly wired to the K- and K+ outputs -> RAB 32033. They are wired with a 10 ohm resistor to the B- and B+ outputs -> Bellsing 10013. There one zobel network across te Bellsing 10013 driver -> 25Ohm 22uf and one across the RAB 32033 -> 38Ohm 5uf. Do you think these values are fine and it would work properly. I dont really want to wire all this stuff loose in the shell but have a nice clean little pcb for it.


----------



## vetteman15

I have followed this forum for a while now and in fact built my first set of CIEM's for leading on stage based on a build in this forum.  Ling time follower, but first time posting.  The in ears worked great, but they were built in 2015, so they are now starting to dye.       So, before building a new set of CIEM's, I am thinking of doing the MASM7 Tri-Bore universal based on Stephen's build.  I have looked all over for the answers but following his post on pg. 684 (#10,250), pg. 722 (#10,830), and pg. 771 (#11,565), I still have a few questions.  The first; since I cannot get the Bellsing 10013, I would put in its place the BZ6.  However, I am unsure of circuit and/or drivers.  I have read that the FK/WBFK with DTEC (or HODVTEC) is preferred over the TWFK combo. Can someone give a circuit with this configuration for me?  Also, how would you place the 2 TWFK (FK/WBFK), 2 DTEC (or HODVTEC) into the Trip-Bore 3D shell?  I am pretty sure that I have the dampers figured out for this, but maybe someone could verify this as well.  Thanks so much for everything you guys are doing here!!!  I know this is i big ask, but it is very much appreciated!!


----------



## Wgibson

Just checking, nobody has bs6 crossover values? I have the 30017s and a few dtec options, can work on a replacement...


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Wgibson said:


> Just checking, nobody has bs6 crossover values? I have the 30017s and a few dtec options, can work on a replacement...


bs6 has crossover pre installed


----------



## Bassiklee

dhruvmeena96 said:


> bs6 has crossover pre installed


Yes,  and he was looking for the values, to try to duplicate it. Perhaps a more helpful answer would have been "unless you are using exactly the same drivers,  duplicating the crossover won't get you what you expect"…


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Bassiklee said:


> Yes,  and he was looking for the values, to try to duplicate it. Perhaps a more helpful answer would have been "unless you are using exactly the same drivers,  duplicating the crossover won't get you what you expect"…


lmao, sorry, i was like
quick read mode(my brain) since I was going for an interview
no job


----------



## slakoth453 (Mar 19, 2022)

Hello, I'm trying to get back into making IEMs after making a pair a while back but I managed to spill the rest of my 4ml bottle of Lack 3. No one in europe seems to sell it to end users now that mcear is shut down, does anyone know where to get Lack 3 or a suitable alternative here in Germany or would be willing to sell me some? I would really appreciate it.

I managed to find some Luxaprint shellac, does anyone have experience with that stuff? Smallest amount I can get is 100ml though and that's quite expensive.
https://syntecshop.com/de/produkt/luxaprint-shellac-100-ml-transparent


----------



## CBTlover223

slakoth453 said:


> Hello, I'm trying to get back into making IEMs after making a pair a while back but I managed to spill the rest of my 4ml bottle of Lack 3. No one in europe seems to sell it to end users now that mcear is shut down, does anyone know where to get Lack 3 or a suitable alternative here in Germany or would be willing to sell me some? I would really appreciate it.
> 
> I managed to find some Luxaprint shellac, does anyone have experience with that stuff? Smallest amount I can get is 100ml though and that's quite expensive.
> https://syntecshop.com/de/produkt/luxaprint-shellac-100-ml-transparent


https://otoplastikshop.dreve.de/otoplastiken/fotoplastr-lacquer-3-4257.html


----------



## slakoth453

CBTlover223 said:


> https://otoplastikshop.dreve.de/otoplastiken/fotoplastr-lacquer-3-4257.html


Thanks but it seems like you can only order there as a company


----------



## CBTlover223

slakoth453 said:


> Thanks but it seems like you can only order there as a company


Maybe try contacting customer support? It seems to be sold out on aliexpress.


----------



## l33333on

CBTlover223 said:


> Maybe try contacting customer support? It seems to be sold out on aliexpress.


Ive already contacted them but they only sell to companies


----------



## CBTlover223

Time to start a company


----------



## CBTlover223

slakoth453 said:


> Thanks but it seems like you can only order there as a company


Biocompatible UV resin/lacquers are usually for medical use and are pretty expensive. If you really can't get any for a reasonable price, It might be cheaper to get someone to print some shells for you with a resin 3d printer using biocompatible resin.


----------



## slakoth453 (Mar 19, 2022)

CBTlover223 said:


> Biocompatible UV resin/lacquers are usually for medical use and are pretty expensive. If you really can't get any for a reasonable price, It might be cheaper to get someone to print some shells for you with a resin 3d printer using biocompatible resin.


I'm already 3d printing my shells but I want something skin safe that gives me a nice finish to cover the prints. Guess I'll get the detax luxaprint stuff, 80€ including shipping for 100ml. I still have a bit of fotofix left and I've seen someone on here use it, should be fine for now.


----------



## slakoth453 (Mar 19, 2022)

just using standard anycubic eco resin for printing though


----------



## slakoth453 (Mar 19, 2022)

oops sorry for posting twice I just wanted to edit, how can I delete this?


----------



## JEHL

Something I wanted to ask since I joined this website, but keep forgetting.

Is it impossible to document drivers for IEM as well as loudspeaker drivers are like https://hificompass.com/en/speakers/measurements/dayton-audio/dayton-audio-rs225p-8a ?


----------



## l33333on

l33333on said:


> Hey, considering the MASM 7 circuit, do you guys think this pcb design would be fine?
> On the top left is the negative, on the bottom left the positive input. They are directly wired to the K- and K+ outputs -> RAB 32033. They are wired with a 10 ohm resistor to the B- and B+ outputs -> Bellsing 10013. There one zobel network across te Bellsing 10013 driver -> 25Ohm 22uf and one across the RAB 32033 -> 38Ohm 5uf. Do you think these values are fine and it would work properly. I dont really want to wire all this stuff loose in the shell but have a nice clean little pcb for it.


anyone got an oppinion about this, if its gonna work?


----------



## IEMbiker

l33333on said:


> anyone got an oppinion about this, if its gonna work?


just do it....that's the fun part of the DIY.


----------



## Aldo40

slakoth453 said:


> just using standard anycubic eco resin for printing though




I use resin detax bio compatible , 3D printing make beautiful shells but not a finish like with Lake 3 , you must pass an lake3 once the intra finished .


----------



## slakoth453 (Mar 21, 2022)

Aldo40 said:


> I use resin detax bio compatible , 3D printing make beautiful shells but not a finish like with Lake 3 , you must pass an lake3 once the intra finished .


I might be able to get some pro3dure L1 from the manufacturer, don't really see a reason to pay for expensive biocompatible resin if I'm covering it in lacquer.


----------



## vetteman15 (Mar 21, 2022)

Since I am unable to get the Bellsing driver for the BS6 to do the MASM& tri-bore, can someone give me direction on the BZ6?  I have researched, but do not fully understand Stephens post on pg. 771.  Thanks so much!


----------



## Aldo40

slakoth453 said:


> I might be able to get some pro3dure L1 from the manufacturer, don't really see a reason to pay for expensive biocompatible resin if I'm covering it in lacquer.


If you cover Lake 3 you don’t have to take resin that expensive.
I had taken detax to make clear because a lot of cheap clear resin that yellows to UV or have a slightly blue or purple color, the detax is not bad clear but there are other alternatives for clear.
Organic compatible resins are not irritating when handled.


----------



## slakoth453

Aldo40 said:


> If you cover Lake 3 you don’t have to take resin that expensive.
> I had taken detax to make clear because a lot of cheap clear resin that yellows to UV or have a slightly blue or purple color, the detax is not bad clear but there are other alternatives for clear.
> Organic compatible resins are not irritating when handled.


Yeah yellowing is a problem for sure, I use clear resin and color it with resin pigment to get around that. I prefer colorful shells anyways.


----------



## Aldo40

Well after that it depends on the demand of my clients, if they decide to have clear, it is necessary to use the resin that will be there as clear as possible, and there are not many that have this quality


----------



## l33333on

slakoth453 said:


> Yeah yellowing is a problem for sure, I use clear resin and color it with resin pigment to get around that. I prefer colorful shells anyways.


What resin pigment do you use? I am looking forward on using the dreve fotoplast s io clear resin and want to color it to opaque white. What do you think about this pigments?: https://www.etsy.com/de/listing/249377859/resin-obsession-opak-weisse-farbpigmente


----------



## slakoth453 (Mar 22, 2022)

l33333on said:


> What resin pigment do you use? I am looking forward on using the dreve fotoplast s io clear resin and want to color it to opaque white. What do you think about this pigments?: https://www.etsy.com/de/listing/249377859/resin-obsession-opak-weisse-farbpigmente


Just some cheap stuff from amazon, works well with my resin but I haven't tried white yet. I imagine you'd need to add more than for translucent colors. I can't say how it works with fotoplast but it's probably fine.

https://www.amazon.de/dp/B095GXP9YM..._dl_46J65AHTJ6W8R538FR1W?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1

The one you found seems to be meant for two part resin so I'd be a bit worried that it won't cure properly, not sure if it actually matters though.


----------



## slakoth453

Some IEM shells I modeled after my ear impressions, thought I'd upload them for everyone to use. Please let me know what you think.

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:5329932


----------



## dhruvmeena96

is there any new build coming up....i can smell it
cmon guys, make a new iem design plss


----------



## Bassiklee

You're the guy who likes to design stuff


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Bassiklee said:


> You're the guy who likes to design stuff


i am too poor to design some thing new


----------



## Wgibson

7 BA in process, it's a weird one.

Sonion 38anp - 110mm x  0.5mm ID brass
BS11011 - 1mm ID
Sonion 44a030 + Knowles 30095 - shared 2mm I think, it's big, see pic with damper

Big images


Spoiler


----------



## Xymordos

Wgibson said:


> 7 BA in process, it's a weird one.
> 
> Sonion 38anp - 110mm x  0.5mm ID brass
> BS11011 - 1mm ID
> ...



BS11011 - What driver is this :O


----------



## Mr.HiAudio

slakoth453 said:


> Some IEM shells I modeled after my ear impressions, thought I'd upload them for everyone to use. Please let me know what you think.
> 
> https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:5329932


Super!

Thank you so much.

Do you have a faceplate 3d mdoel for this shells ?


----------



## slakoth453

Mr.HiAudio said:


> Super!
> 
> Thank you so much.
> 
> Do you have a faceplate 3d mdoel for this shells ?


No I don't, I just make my faceplates the traditional way.


----------



## Mr.HiAudio

does anybody know about good crossover for: 22955 + 29689 + 30095 ?

i wand to modify my KZ AS12


----------



## slakoth453

Anyone tried this?

https://a.aliexpress.com/_uxZzco

Is it the same as the bellsing 6ba? I'm thinking about making MASM7.


----------



## l33333on

The frequency response range looks different from the one of BS6... I just ordered 6 Bellsing 10013 drivers kinda cheap directly from china from some suspicious website... Ill report wether the shop is safe to use or not when receiving the packet.


----------



## slakoth453

maybe I'll try to buy directly from bellsing but please report back when you get them


----------



## Bassiklee

Someone on aliexpress had Bellsing ED drivers.  I'll see if I can find them


----------



## Bassiklee

Here.  I can't grab a link,  because I use the app,  and/or I'm an idiot.


----------



## l33333on

slakoth453 said:


> maybe I'll try to buy directly from bellsing but please report back when you get them


Yeah, already thought about buying directly from bellsing, too. But unfortunately they didnt answer my request i sent via email


----------



## Wgibson (Mar 28, 2022)

Bassiklee said:


> Here.  I can't grab a link,  because I use the app,  and/or I'm an idiot.



 Edit: Pic works for me, here is imm6 curve, let me dig up some details and I'll edit and add soon. 29689n is great for a simple v shaped hybrid, this without filter or damper so you can definitely knock down those treble peaks. This was definitely on the bright side, good vocals




Here is the DD, BUY EXTRAS, be ready to adjust dampers to get a pair that matches. Biggest inconsistency is where the wires come out on the side, in between the drivers, open this hole for a ton of mid-bass, from what I recall it can be flat from ~30-300hz if you want. Sealing that location with glue will give you bass response shown above. Rear dampers may need to be replaced in order to be consistent. But, if you get a pair to match, they are pretty fast and clean, not muddy at all. Lots of bass and drums at the same time, no problem.

https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=625798726630

There are other sellers also I think.


----------



## CBTlover223 (Mar 29, 2022)

I received some 14mm Planars I ordered from taobao recently, here are the measurements:
Closed back:



Open Back:



Closing it off seems pretty nice for a 3 way config as the woofer. Might try something with either the twfk or 2389D + swfk.
I havent listened to them yet though, Might need to 3d Print a shell first.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

CBTlover223 said:


> I received some 14mm Planars I ordered from taobao recently, here are the measurements:
> Closed back:
> 
> Open Back:
> ...


this doesnt look like IEC711 standard graph as I used to get 1.5kHz peak when throwing it inside shell TBH


----------



## slakoth453

CBTlover223 said:


> I received some 14mm Planars I ordered from taobao recently, here are the measurements:
> Closed back:
> 
> Open Back:
> ...



You mean these? I got some on the way too. If they're the same could you maybe share the exact dimensions so I can start modeling a shell? thanks!


----------



## Wgibson

@CBTlover223 shouldn't need swfk, just take care of pinna peak, maybe something to add a bass shelf if you want. Knowles SR could be interesting for pinna, maybe try it in front of the planar open space, like a "30095 in the nozzle" situation.


----------



## CBTlover223

slakoth453 said:


> You mean these? I got some on the way too. If they're the same could you maybe share the exact dimensions so I can start modeling a shell? thanks!


The diameter is not entirely uniform but the widest part is 14.3mm
Height is 4mm excluding the solder pads
the distance from the edge of the metal grid to the edge of the housing is 1mm
All measurements +-0.1mm


----------



## CBTlover223 (Mar 30, 2022)

Anyone tried Pairing a DD subwoofer with a BA one? I feel like it might give it a softer tone while retaining the BA's resolution. I might try something with DD + CI or 38DJ after this planar build.


----------



## l33333on

Hi guys, its now time for me to order the materials I need to build my first CIEM shells. Can someone recommend the dreve fotoplast s io resin when I want to color it to opaque white? If yes, which pigment can you recommend? If no, which resin + pigment can you recommend? + is there a dentist light with 365nm?


----------



## CBTlover223

slakoth453 said:


> You mean these? I got some on the way too. If they're the same could you maybe share the exact dimensions so I can start modeling a shell? thanks!


Tuning the planars have been quite painful for me, especially adjusting the bass response. I have to outsource my manufacturing which makes the process excruciatingly slow. I have ordered some custom machines housings with a variety of vent sizes, vent positions and dampening materials. I can share the results of the test with you either through DMs or by posting on this thread If you would like.


----------



## slakoth453

CBTlover223 said:


> Tuning the planars have been quite painful for me, especially adjusting the bass response. I have to outsource my manufacturing which makes the process excruciatingly slow. I have ordered some custom machines housings with a variety of vent sizes, vent positions and dampening materials. I can share the results of the test with you either through DMs or by posting on this thread If you would like.


I'd love to hear your findings, I can do some rapid prototyping at least as I have a 3d printer but your results would help out a lot.


----------



## l33333on

l33333on said:


> Hi guys, its now time for me to order the materials I need to build my first CIEM shells. Can someone recommend the dreve fotoplast s io resin when I want to color it to opaque white? If yes, which pigment can you recommend? If no, which resin + pigment can you recommend? + is there a dentist light with 365nm?


In addition to my last question: how do you protect the sound tubes from dust or cerumen? I know there are cerumen filters but I cant find sockets for them...


----------



## IndyAudio14

Hello,Could Sonion 17a003 driver be used as a midrange driver in a three way.Like sonion 3800 ,17a003,knowles twfk,swfk etc


----------



## swtnate

l33333on said:


> In addition to my last question: how do you protect the sound tubes from dust or cerumen? I know there are cerumen filters but I cant find sockets for them...


Theres a number of different ways to do it.  WarnerTech Care, here in the USA carries the HF-4 socket and the cerustop bushings.  Heres your main trouble, as I see it.  The bushings/ sockets are designed for 2.16mm OD soft pvc receiver tubing.  You cant tube the drivers efficiently for what we are doing. In hearing aids, theres an amp, microphone, etc and those get dialed in through a computer program most of the time.  Which is why hearing aids run on batteries and our IEMs do not.

now, there are some spring looking type inserts you can try.  They dont require a socket or bushing.  Ive never used them before.

if you go the socket route, the Hf-4 has given me fits!  i have a handful left over.  I also have a handful of cerustop bushings and a bunch of cerustop filters.  If you want to go either of those routes. and your in the USA, DM me.  We can exchange contact and communicate via email if you want to work something out.


----------



## swtnate

l33333on said:


> In addition to my last question: how do you protect the sound tubes from dust or cerumen? I know there are cerumen filters but I cant find sockets for them...


https://www.warnertechcare.com/kings-mini-wax-spring-gold-coated-pack-of-100

here are the wax springs that dont require a bushing or socket.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

swtnate said:


> https://www.warnertechcare.com/kings-mini-wax-spring-gold-coated-pack-of-100
> 
> here are the wax springs that dont require a bushing or socket.


just use brush mate
or coat the tube with oleophobic + oil phobic spray


----------



## dhruvmeena96

IndyAudio14 said:


> Hello,Could Sonion 17a003 driver be used as a midrange driver in a three way.Like sonion 3800 ,17a003,knowles twfk,swfk etc


why not bro, its just that you have to measure the BA separately, see how it actually measure and use it in any way you want
just make sure, to not use tweeter or super small drver as woof or mids(uppermids is fine)


----------



## slakoth453

CBTlover223 said:


> Tuning the planars have been quite painful for me, especially adjusting the bass response. I have to outsource my manufacturing which makes the process excruciatingly slow. I have ordered some custom machines housings with a variety of vent sizes, vent positions and dampening materials. I can share the results of the test with you either through DMs or by posting on this thread If you would like.


This is what I came up with so far:

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:5337591

Are there any obvious issues you can see? I know it's probably not gonna sound good as is but I just wanted to get started designing something. Did you figure out how to get the pinna gain up?

I tried to stay close to the internal design of the 7hz timeless.


----------



## l33333on

dhruvmeena96 said:


> just use brush mate
> or coat the tube with oleophobic + oil phobic spray


Well, but how should I clean the cerumen deep inside of the sound tube, if it somehow gets there...?


----------



## CBTlover223

slakoth453 said:


> This is what I came up with so far:
> 
> https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:5337591
> 
> ...


Unfortunately I couldn't do any testing yet as I am still waiting for the parts I ordered to arrive. @Wgibson has posted some test results for a 10mm planar on page 795 which might help. 

I don't see any obvious issues with the shell you've posted, but remember to vent the back volume. You can try connecting the driver to some silicone tubing of varying lengths and adjust the peaks that way.


----------



## slakoth453

CBTlover223 said:


> Unfortunately I couldn't do any testing yet as I am still waiting for the parts I ordered to arrive. @Wgibson has posted some test results for a 10mm planar on page 795 which might help.
> 
> I don't see any obvious issues with the shell you've posted, but remember to vent the back volume. You can try connecting the driver to some silicone tubing of varying lengths and adjust the peaks that way.


Thank you, I was planning on putting the back vent on the faceplate


----------



## swtnate

Xymordos said:


> Well after a very long time I finally finished a new build. This time it is a Tri-brid, but not the usual type. I think this is a world first Tri-brid which uses dynamic drivers, planar dynamic drivers, and balanced armature drivers.
> 
> Driver config (total of 7 drivers)
> Bass: 2x 6mm dynamic drivers in push push configuration
> ...


alright, this is gonna sound like a noob question but i'm gonna ask any.  ESPECIALLY since I've seen this discussion evolve SO  much over the years i've been following this thread for insight, advice, how tos, and epic failures.   How are you mounting the DD and Planar drivers in your shells?? Like do you just point them toward the ear and let it fly?  I see all these images of a 10-15mm DD or Planar mounted dead center just prior to the canal entrance.  THEN, planted around the DD are standard BA.... How are you getting the armature response frequencies to follow a consistent path to the ear drum AND get around the DD.  THEN i see we are ripping the spouts off innocent well-behaving WBFK drivers and placing them INSIDE the ear canal (5-7mm from sound exit... MAYBE). Somebody guide me through this madness so I can play too.


----------



## devmeista

I’ve been pouring over this thread for a couple of weeks, and I’ve been thinking of DIEMs for years.  I started reading the more recent pages and have been skipping around, and the information overload is real. I’ve decided to start at the beginning and chug through. 



I’ve had customs that fisher hearing made for me probably rivaling the age of this thread, and I’m finding that for in ears I really struggle to get consistency from anything universal. 



Lately I’ve been more analytical of my sound sources in gaming, listening and on stage. This has resulted in buying many different IEMs, earbuds and over ear headphones. I’m starting to develop a baseline for my preferred sound, and I’m now trying to see how to achieve that in my CIEMs. 



I’ve got an elegoo mars 3 printer with clean/cure station, and I’ve been experimenting with shell printing using normal resins as prototypes. These have come out well so far. My next step is choosing a ear safe resin. My most recent find was mentioned in this thread. Dentona optiprint guide 385 clear. This is one of the only biocompatible resins available to me relatively quickly without an account wall or import. Thoughts on that resin? I’ve seen it used here but not much feedback beyond that (that I’ve found yet anyway). 



I’ve also been recommended cyfex secret ear designer for the manipulation of impression scans. I haven’t activated the demo yet as I wanted to make sure to have my ducks in a row to actually try it sufficiently in the trial period. I’m not fully aware of its capabilities yet as it relates to designing inner channels for drivers and tubes. This idea seems to be used by some and feels like a route I’d like to go if I can make it work. 



I think to start I want to build an easy set from a factory crossover equipped multi driver unit.  The original idea was the bs6 with zobel, but the 10013 seems to be impossible to get in the US right now. Also not sure how king it would take to get Chinese supply right now considering what I’m seeing on more shutdowns.  Closest thing I’m really seeing is a 4 driver Knowles GV. Any good designs with it or other ideas of something to replace the 10013? 



Secondly, I’d really like to design something less mainstream with DDs, hybrids or planars. This can be difficult I assume. With a given engineered acoustic space for the driver, I would assume printing that into the shell could be a pretty efficient way to accomplish the task. I’m excited to see what you guys are working on. Also noticed a link to a shell on thingiverse that I’ll have to check that out when I’m back at my desktop.



Thanks for any help you can give.


----------



## Xymordos

swtnate said:


> alright, this is gonna sound like a noob question but i'm gonna ask any.  ESPECIALLY since I've seen this discussion evolve SO  much over the years i've been following this thread for insight, advice, how tos, and epic failures.   How are you mounting the DD and Planar drivers in your shells?? Like do you just point them toward the ear and let it fly?  I see all these images of a 10-15mm DD or Planar mounted dead center just prior to the canal entrance.  THEN, planted around the DD are standard BA.... How are you getting the armature response frequencies to follow a consistent path to the ear drum AND get around the DD.  THEN i see we are ripping the spouts off innocent well-behaving WBFK drivers and placing them INSIDE the ear canal (5-7mm from sound exit... MAYBE). Somebody guide me through this madness so I can play too.



The Planar has a 3D printed front part which is glued on, and the whole thing is UV resin'd on the shell. The DD part just goes on top wherever it fits since the planar already uses up most of the space.  I mean no drivers are firing into the shell? They're all connected by a length of tubing.  I think the DD has a 10cm tube and the BA has a 2cm tube in this one, I don't remember the exact measurements as I'm not at home.


----------



## swtnate

devmeista said:


> I’ve been pouring over this thread for a couple of weeks, and I’ve been thinking of DIEMs for years.  I started reading the more recent pages and have been skipping around, and the information overload is real. I’ve decided to start at the beginning and chug through.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Best words of advice of I EVER got came from the sonion rep.  Start with one driver.  Start with a generic universal shell.  Get a measurement microphone.  Then you can start playing!  These “kits” Are not really plug n’ play for general use.  They are plug n’ play for experienced builder who understand what has been pre done for you.  That being said, welcome to the journey!


----------



## devmeista

swtnate said:


> Best words of advice of I EVER got came from the sonion rep.  Start with one driver.  Start with a generic universal shell.  Get a measurement microphone.  Then you can start playing!  These “kits” Are not really plug n’ play for general use.  They are plug n’ play for experienced builder who understand what has been pre done for you.  That being said, welcome to the journey!


I feel this is very sound advice. Would also minimize burning up expensive drivers. I have some universals on the way from soundlink, and I have some files to print my own. 

Any suggestions on what components it would make sense to have to start? I think it would be prudent to learn the traditional methods with tubing before using 3d design for all sound bores and such.  Which full range driver, what filters and resistors, which adhesive for securing tubes to shell exit etc? 

Are there any super basic single driver plans? I’m assuming that a single driver would work best with as short of a tube as possible? Somewhat of an ety principle?


----------



## swtnate

devmeista said:


> I feel this is very sound advice. Would also minimize burning up expensive drivers. I have some universals on the way from soundlink, and I have some files to print my own.
> 
> Any suggestions on what components it would make sense to have to start? I think it would be prudent to learn the traditional methods with tubing before using 3d design for all sound bores and such.  Which full range driver, what filters and resistors, which adhesive for securing tubes to shell exit etc?
> 
> Are there any super basic single driver plans? I’m assuming that a single driver would work best with as short of a tube as possible? Somewhat of an ety principle?


https://www.aliexpress.com/item/100...store_pc_allProduct.8148356.23.48e738e0Hqqwuu

This is awesome to get your feet wet.  Get some tubing, stick to soft pvc.  stick to 3mm or #13. get a variety of acoustic dampers.  for adhesive, don't go "Big Swag" and get the high dollar Loctite stuff.  I started with small tubes of Loctite super glue made for glass crack repair.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Loctite-2g-Glass-Glue-233841/202020452
this will take longer to cure out.  But, that will be a benefit to you just starting out.  Plus, it performs fairly well for moderate-longterm use.  Its easy to remove in big pieces so you can retube the driver over and over.  it dries clear and doesn't bloom so it won't damage the internals of BA's.  
SOLDERING!!! This is often over looked and SUPER critical.  No matter how proficient you may be, if you've had a long history of working with electronics, this is literally a whole new world.  These units can be very heat sensitive and sometimes they don't play nice mainstream flux.  Find a small pen you like on Amazon that allows digital temperature control.  When soldering the BA's, I never go over 350F.  My normal soldering temp is 280-315.  If you overheat them they will continue to work, to some degree, but deceptively.  Such as, it'lll crescendo the sub response, or increase your noise floor, or create a 2k THD that isn't noticeable just starting out.  Here's general advice given from Sonion:
https://www.sonion.com/wp-content/uploads/Documentation_Designing_Earphones.pdf

Last thing, REMEMBER this forum can be an INVALUABLE resource.  It literally created my obsession with this stuff.  HOWEVER, what can give can also take away.  This is very much a DIY forum.  Some practices described within this decades long conversation are not industry common practice.  (ie never use epoxy or uv nail polish on a medical device you are inserting into your body that will have the absolute closest contact with your skin.  Those coatings off gas as they air cure release formaldehyde, and other funky preservatives. those things can create in the short term, swelling, inflamation, and minor to severe discomfort.  In the long term, everything up to hearing loss.). Always ask questions! those of us in here that have been bothering each other over the years through DMs still love talking shop.  Find a couple of voices you can rely on and bounce your ideas around in that space.


----------



## swtnate

swtnate said:


> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/100...store_pc_allProduct.8148356.23.48e738e0Hqqwuu
> 
> This is awesome to get your feet wet.  Get some tubing, stick to soft pvc.  stick to 3mm or #13. get a variety of acoustic dampers.  for adhesive, don't go "Big Swag" and get the high dollar Loctite stuff.  I started with small tubes of Loctite super glue made for glass crack repair.
> https://www.homedepot.com/p/Loctite-2g-Glass-Glue-233841/202020452
> ...


ADDENDUM -- Once you get the acoustic dampering stuff down and you see how tube length and/or damper distance effect response, Id move to experimenting with capacitors and resistors.  For the sake of prototyping, standard through hole resistors should work just as well as the SMD's as tolerances remain remain fairly consistent.  When selecting capacitors I would only use the SMD ceramic capacitor.  Don't go nuts and get a boat load of values.  We aren't building 7th order crossovers for hi-fi home audio.  Most everything SHOULD stay in series (series resistor and or series capacitor). For a beginner in SMD components, I'd recommend you start with a 1206 size.  They are much easier to control and handle.
https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/kemet/C1206C473J1GEC7210/8646269
Heres one that I still use if I have the space in the shell. LOL!  For resistors, through holes will work great! If you want to get started with some smd type Resistors, industry standard are the thick film type.
https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/vishay-dale/CRCW080512R0FKEAHP/2226755

About 4 months ago I switched to SMD MELF resistors, and it was a game changer.  Electric distortion went WAY down.  THD decreased dramatically.  Heres a link to some of those:
https://www.digikey.com/en/products...oric-bc-components/MMB02070C2000FB200/5171671

I only use electrical components in moderation.  Like a series resistor followed by a series capacitor leading to the 2389 for example.  You will be shocked at how much the soundstage you create is driven by distance, tubing, and dampening compared to adding electronics.


----------



## swtnate

anybody using the elagoo Saturn S 4k mono printer?  Im finally ditching the albatross that was the photon S.  It was such a trainwreck of ownership I refuse to even evaluate other anycubic offetings


----------



## devmeista

swtnate said:


> anybody using the elagoo Saturn S 4k mono printer?  Im finally ditching the albatross that was the photon S.  It was such a trainwreck of ownership I refuse to even evaluate other anycubic offetings


I have the mars 3, but my usage with biocompatible resin is minimal.


----------



## Aldo40 (Apr 5, 2022)

Saturn is for large parts, personally I also use the Mars 3 and is perfectly suitable for our use, just choose the good resins and the best settings
I appreciate it so much that I use it much more than my ASIGA!!


----------



## swtnate

devmeista said:


> I have the mars 3, but my usage with biocompatible resin is minimal.





Aldo40 said:


> Saturn is for large parts, personally I also use the Mars 3 and is perfectly suitable for our use, just choose the good resins and the best settings
> I appreciate it so much that I use it much more than my ASIGA!!


I will be using it to print multiple shells faceplates, and other gadgets.  its also an msla speed with an ULTRA wide build plate.  My real concern is audiology resin compatibility with the printer and how do insure biocompatibility?


----------



## Aldo40

if you do not use biocompatible resin it is not very serious but the final intra must be covered with lake3


----------



## slakoth453

For making an impedance jig does the input have to be high quality or will on board audio work? I assume you can't use an apple dongle because it's mono. Also how do you hook up the drivers for measuring, does it have to be soldered all the way or would litz wire soldered to the ba and connected to the jig with crocodile clips be enough? Thanks.


----------



## swtnate

slakoth453 said:


> For making an impedance jig does the input have to be high quality or will on board audio work? I assume you can't use an apple dongle because it's mono. Also how do you hook up the drivers for measuring, does it have to be soldered all the way or would litz wire soldered to the ba and connected to the jig with crocodile clips be enough? Thanks.


https://www.roomeqwizard.com/help/help_en-GB/html/impedancemeasurement.html

this worked AWESOME for me.  I dont use banana clips.  Although you most certainly can.  This will give you the most accurate data regarding electrical phase.  I run this with individual drivers connected and then again with whole circuit connected.


----------



## swtnate

swtnate said:


> https://www.roomeqwizard.com/help/help_en-GB/html/impedancemeasurement.html
> 
> this worked AWESOME for me.  I dont use banana clips.  Although you most certainly can.  This will give you the most accurate data regarding electrical phase.  I run this with individual drivers connected and then again with whole circuit connected.


I will post a pic of how I flattened the impedance of the HODVTEC and how that flat response benefitted the use of an l-pad.  A low impedance dual vented driver (12-18 Ω) doesnt move much with a single series resistor, in my experience.


----------



## slakoth453

swtnate said:


> https://www.roomeqwizard.com/help/help_en-GB/html/impedancemeasurement.html
> 
> this worked AWESOME for me.  I dont use banana clips.  Although you most certainly can.  This will give you the most accurate data regarding electrical phase.  I run this with individual drivers connected and then again with whole circuit connected.


Thank you! Reading this I guess the calibration should get rid of any issues that come with using on board audio, right?


----------



## swtnate

slakoth453 said:


> Thank you! Reading this I guess the calibration should get rid of any issues that come with using on board audio, right?


onboard audio?  what do you mean?


----------



## CBTlover223

slakoth453 said:


> Thank you! Reading this I guess the calibration should get rid of any issues that come with using on board audio, right?


The onboard audio for a PC shouldn't give you any issues since the test checks for difference between the generated output and the input after the signal passes through the drivers you're measuring.


----------



## CBTlover223

devmeista said:


> I feel this is very sound advice. Would also minimize burning up expensive drivers. I have some universals on the way from soundlink, and I have some files to print my own.
> 
> Any suggestions on what components it would make sense to have to start? I think it would be prudent to learn the traditional methods with tubing before using 3d design for all sound bores and such.  Which full range driver, what filters and resistors, which adhesive for securing tubes to shell exit etc?
> 
> Are there any super basic single driver plans? I’m assuming that a single driver would work best with as short of a tube as possible? Somewhat of an ety principle?


If you want something to practice with, you can experiment with some DDs. They're much cheaper than BA drivers and they can sound quite good just by themselves too.


----------



## CBTlover223

CBTlover223 said:


> Tuning the planars have been quite painful for me, especially adjusting the bass response. I have to outsource my manufacturing which makes the process excruciatingly slow. I have ordered some custom machines housings with a variety of vent sizes, vent positions and dampening materials. I can share the results of the test with you either through DMs or by posting on this thread If you would like.


The shells I ordered should arrive in a couple days; I can probably test them and post the results within 5-6 days or so.


----------



## stegeoc

Hi All, first post on this fascinating thread though I’ve been reading it for some time now. I recently lost my favourite ciems and it somehow led me to this rabbit hole.

I haven’t yet completed my first set but have already spent a lot of time building shells, and now have the components to proceed further. For now, I just have two questions though.

Firstly, if I lacquer my clear shells, but then need to make adjustments/sand down or drill, I end up with horrible white patches that are visible even if sand and lacquer again. Is there a way to avoid this/save the shells? Do you need to chemically remove the old lacquer? I realise that ideally (if I had confidence in my shells) I’d only be lacquering at the end.

Secondly, after assembling a diem the normal way (with glue/epoxy/filled canals etc.) if you want to make changes to the tubes or move to a new shell, how easy is it to disassemble things without breaking anything. I don’t think I’ve seen this discussed.

Many thanks! Looking forward to moving to the next step soon


----------



## swtnate

stegeoc said:


> Hi All, first post on this fascinating thread though I’ve been reading it for some time now. I recently lost my favourite ciems and it somehow led me to this rabbit hole.
> 
> I haven’t yet completed my first set but have already spent a lot of time building shells, and now have the components to proceed further. For now, I just have two questions though.
> 
> ...


This all depends on what you’re building and who your building it for.  But, for the most part, these are built as constants.  So, each set would be its own thing.  You can play around changing out face plate, tear down and rebuold, etc.

as far as lacquer goes.  In my work flow,  that is the absolute last thing that goes on my shells.  You need to get one/ find designed with IEMs in mind.  The vast majority of bulk users of these products make hearing aids.  Due to the multiple color of these, all in various shades of melanin, yellowing was never a big deal.  I LOVE the Detax Shellac.  Pro3dure makes a good one as well.  by the way, that white yellow splotchiness your seeing is the unevenness in the brush application.  I switched to an airbrush set-up 6-9 months ago.  Its been out of this world.


----------



## Aldo40

I haven’t tested the shellac detax yet, I only tested lake3 and pro3dure.
Is the detax really better?


----------



## stegeoc

I'm just building 2 or 3 sets for myself out of interest but would love to end up with something that sounds and looks good.

I actually ended up using almost all my resin on my shell experiments and a lot of my better attempts are lacquered but not drilled.  As I was running out of resin I decided to use a couple of those but later found out I needed to do quite a bit of adjusting.  Plus I needed to drill out the solid canals.  

I managed to get some lack 3 and my brushing technique is definitely sub par but air brushing is probably over the top for me!  The bigger problem is the inconsistent shells I start with. 

Anyway, I think I've got as far as I can with the shells so will carry on and see how it goes.  Even if it won't look perfect it will be a learning experience


----------



## Aldo40

For the varnish, the brush delivered with is enough because the varnishes are self smoothing.

the preparation of the surface of the shell is the key to a successful varnish.

Varnish the shel and rotate it for 10 minutes out of the UV so that it will auto smooth.

Then I let it turn 5 minutes with UV and varnish and perfectly smooth.

I think you don’t need an airbrush, a lot of professionals do that with a brush


----------



## stegeoc

ah..  rotate before curing   That sounds like a very useful tip, thanks!  I've been lighting it up straight away


----------



## Aldo40

yes I put two successive thin layers, I pay attention that I do not leave any bubble or dust point and I let it turn 5 minutes, you can leave it 10 minutes even 

and then we turn on the UV.

have often said that it takes 1 minute of UV treatment, but personally I find that it is not enough, 5 minutes is good.


----------



## swtnate

stegeoc said:


> ah..  rotate before curing   That sounds like a very useful tip, thanks!  I've been lighting it up straight away


Where you see the benefit is on the faceplate.  Brushing on the shell lays out really smooth fairly easily.  The faceplate is next to impossible, for me anyway, to get to lay down flat.  once you see a sprayed finish, you’ll see the benefits.  all these lacquers require turning on a motor after application.  I turn each shell for 10-15 minutes.  Then I cure.  Be sure to follow the cure times on the sheet.  Every lacquer/ shellac is different.  Sure you dont have to have an airbrush.  Its really nice have one.


----------



## swtnate

Aldo40 said:


> I haven’t tested the shellac detax yet, I only tested lake3 and pro3dure.
> Is the detax really better?


It really is phenomenal.  It doesnt attract dust fro
 the room.  It flows out to a smooth thin coating.  So, you for sure cant really build up the shell with it like you possibly can with Lack3 or pro3dure L1.  Its 💯 my favorite.  IF you can get it.  They also have an AWESOME silicone impression lacquer thats supposed to build like dipping wax but without all the controls and equipment required.  Its then heat cured.


----------



## devmeista (Apr 10, 2022)

swtnate said:


> It really is phenomenal.  It doesnt attract dust fro
> the room.  It flows out to a smooth thin coating.  So, you for sure cant really build up the shell with it like you possibly can with Lack3 or pro3dure L1.  Its 💯 my favorite.  IF you can get it.  They also have an AWESOME silicone impression lacquer thats supposed to build like dipping wax but without all the controls and equipment required.  Its then heat cured.





swtnate said:


> Where you see the benefit is on the faceplate.  Brushing on the shell lays out really smooth fairly easily.  The faceplate is next to impossible, for me anyway, to get to lay down flat.  once you see a sprayed finish, you’ll see the benefits.  all these lacquers require turning on a motor after application.  I turn each shell for 10-15 minutes.  Then I cure.  Be sure to follow the cure times on the sheet.  Every lacquer/ shellac is different.  Sure you dont have to have an airbrush.  Its really nice have one.


What are you using as a turntable? I have a curing station for post process of 3d resin print but I don’t think I can turn without lights, and covering emitters seems like heat overload.


----------



## Aldo40 (Apr 10, 2022)

swtnate said:


> It really is phenomenal.  It doesnt attract dust fro
> the room.  It flows out to a smooth thin coating.  So, you for sure cant really build up the shell with it like you possibly can with Lack3 or pro3dure L1.  Its 💯 my favorite.  IF you can get it.  They also have an AWESOME silicone impression lacquer thats supposed to build like dipping wax but without all the controls and equipment required.  Its then heat cured.


I ordered 100ml I would see well   I have good results with lake3 but I am curious to see the difference


----------



## mattmatt

Aldo40 said:


> I ordered 100ml I would see well   I have good results with lake3 but I am curious to see the difference


where did you order yours?


----------



## swtnate

Aldo40 said:


> I ordered 100ml I would see well   I have good results with lake3 but I am curious to see the difference


Its a 4 minute cure time opposed to the usual 1-2.  So, be aware.


devmeista said:


> What are you using as a turntable? I have a curing station for post process of 3d resin print but I don’t think I can turn without lights, and covering emitters seems like heat overload.


i built one from the instructions on this forum.  it runs on double A batteries.  I also bought one from lightening enterprises that runs on 9 volt.  My double AA’s last longer.


----------



## stegeoc

Aldo40 said:


> yes I put two successive thin layers, I pay attention that I do not leave any bubble or dust point and I let it turn 5 minutes, you can leave it 10 minutes even
> 
> and then we turn on the UV.
> 
> have often said that it takes 1 minute of UV treatment, but personally I find that it is not enough, 5 minutes is good.


When you say two successive layers, do you mean two layers prior to any curing?   Not curing at all after the first?  I realise it will start yellowing after too much exposure but I guess two blasts should be ok.

The latest unexpected problem I had was with gluing the tubes onto the BAs.  The tubes had a good fit when dry but once I added epoxy they became too slippery and kept coming off.  I did both at the same time so had a hard time holding them both still for long enough for it to set.  Eventually used super glue and I think it's ok.  Just hope nothing went in the nozzles


----------



## Aldo40

swtnate said:


> Its a 4 minute cure time opposed to the usual 1-2.  So, be aware.


I cure the lake3 for 4-5 minutes so I won’t be disoriented


----------



## Aldo40

mattmatt said:


> where did you order yours?


here
https://syntecshop.com/


----------



## Aldo40

stegeoc said:


> When you say two successive layers, do you mean two layers prior to any curing?   Not curing at all after the first?  I realise it will start yellowing after too much exposure but I guess two blasts should be ok.


yes two thin layers at the same time before exposure


----------



## mattmatt

Aldo40 said:


> here
> https://syntecshop.com/


oh wow, the price difference compared to warnertech is huge.


----------



## Aldo40

mattmatt said:


> oh wow, the price difference compared to warnertech is huge.


 How much does 100ml cost at warnertech?


----------



## mattmatt

Aldo40 said:


> How much does 100ml cost at warnertech?


I think around 40usd more expensive. 

Do you have past experiences with syntech? Will purchase from them this week! Thank you so much for the link!


----------



## slakoth453

I also got my planar drivers now and they've been a nightmare to tune to be honest. I noticed that all manufacturers seem to use this version of the driver with an added acoustic chamber.






Then I found this diagram from the new tinhifi iem and it seems to just be an extra housing glued to the rest of the driver.





I will try to 3d print something similar and hopefully that does the trick.


----------



## Aldo40

mattmatt said:


> I think around 40usd more expensive.
> 
> Do you have past experiences with syntech? Will purchase from them this week! Thank you so much for the link!


Yes I already ordered some detax resin from them


----------



## swtnate

stegeoc said:


> When you say two successive layers, do you mean two layers prior to any curing?   Not curing at all after the first?  I realise it will start yellowing after too much exposure but I guess two blasts should be ok.
> 
> The latest unexpected problem I had was with gluing the tubes onto the BAs.  The tubes had a good fit when dry but once I added epoxy they became too slippery and kept coming off.  I did both at the same time so had a hard time holding them both still for long enough for it to set.  Eventually used super glue and I think it's ok.  Just hope nothing went in the nozzles


Ive been using Loctite 3301 UV Medical Adhesive and a UV pin light. Its lasts forever!  Plus, it was made to adhere PVC to metal medical devices.  If cured correctly, its really difficult to seperate the two with out using a razor of xacto.


----------



## mattmatt

Aldo40 said:


> Yes I already ordered some detax resin from them


Coolio! I'll order them. please let us know how you like the detax.  swtnate seem to love it!


----------



## mattmatt

I just took the splurge with the detax! I'm counting on swtnate's words, which I trust, to love this!


----------



## dhruvmeena96 (Apr 13, 2022)

slakoth453 said:


> I also got my planar drivers now and they've been a nightmare to tune to be honest. I noticed that all manufacturers seem to use this version of the driver with an added acoustic chamber.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Timeless also has this and it is less annoying than the older ones, i don't know how the channel match as i have seen defective ones too


----------



## devmeista

Tried to find some relevant posts with search feature but came up empty. 

What are you guys using to adapt custom shells to iec711 style couplers?


----------



## mattmatt

devmeista said:


> Tried to find some relevant posts with search feature but came up empty.
> 
> What are you guys using to adapt custom shells to iec711 style couplers?


some has custom silicone adaptors, some use blutak.


----------



## Wgibson

Check out this shell design for moondrop CHU, it looks a lot like what I ended up with for my 10mm single planar, might be a good candidate to put a 10mm planar into. And the general shape should be considered for those 14mm planars, but probably starting from the rectangular grill only, not from the full 14mm diameter. Keep volume to a minimum.



I also ended up needing a special rear chamber, that was not very fun but I eventually got it.


----------



## slakoth453

Wgibson said:


> Check out this shell design for moondrop CHU, it looks a lot like what I ended up with for my 10mm single planar, might be a good candidate to put a 10mm planar into. And the general shape should be considered for those 14mm planars, but probably starting from the rectangular grill only, not from the full 14mm diameter. Keep volume to a minimum.
> 
> 
> 
> I also ended up needing a special rear chamber, that was not very fun but I eventually got it.



Thanks for the suggestions. Unfortunately the back chamber didn't make a difference so I might try removing the back tuning paper next and then add the chamber. I tried different front volumes already with barely any difference but I'll definitely attempt going directly from the rectangular mesh like you said. What I've seen manufacturers use in terms of front volume seems pretty large though.





I also noticed that all of them use front vents which for me completely killed the bass response so maybe that's another clue that they don't use a back filter like on my drivers.


----------



## CBTlover223

slakoth453 said:


> Thanks for the suggestions. Unfortunately the back chamber didn't make a difference so I might try removing the back tuning paper next and then add the chamber. I tried different front volumes already with barely any difference but I'll definitely attempt going directly from the rectangular mesh like you said. What I've seen manufacturers use in terms of front volume seems pretty large though.
> 
> 
> 
> I also noticed that all of them use front vents which for me completely killed the bass response so maybe that's another clue that they don't use a back filter like on my drivers.


I've been experimenting too, and I can't seem to get the front vent to work. I've tried dampening it with different types paper and foam but the bass response doesn't change too much. The back venting did seem to have a noticeable impact on the upper mid range though.
No front vent, 1mm back vent:



No front vent, 2mmm back vent:


----------



## dhruvmeena96

slakoth453 said:


> Thanks for the suggestions. Unfortunately the back chamber didn't make a difference so I might try removing the back tuning paper next and then add the chamber. I tried different front volumes already with barely any difference but I'll definitely attempt going directly from the rectangular mesh like you said. What I've seen manufacturers use in terms of front volume seems pretty large though.
> 
> 
> 
> I also noticed that all of them use front vents which for me completely killed the bass response so maybe that's another clue that they don't use a back filter like on my drivers.


They add paper damper at that front vent to restrict the flow and reduce bass a bit

Those damping sheet are sold on taobao i guess with different damping factor


----------



## slakoth453

dhruvmeena96 said:


> They add paper damper at that front vent to restrict the flow and reduce bass a bit
> 
> Those damping sheet are sold on taobao i guess with different damping factor


I tried that


----------



## stegeoc

Finished my first build.  Sonion 1723WT03/9 dual driver with grey damper and stepped horn.  I was going to go with the GVs first but after reading about so many people killing them during assembly i thought safer to try something simpler first.

Sound and comfort is good.  Found the sound best with no damper or just the grey one.  White was a bit dark.

Look is obviously not perfect but I am quite happy and I think the photos make the imperfections stand out more.  However even spinning for ages before curing, I was not able to get a perfect faceplate.  Not too bad though.

My next build will not be clear so I'm hoping that makes things a lot easier!

Thanks for all the help!


----------



## mattmatt

stegeoc said:


> Finished my first build.  Sonion 1723WT03/9 dual driver with grey damper and stepped horn.  I was going to go with the GVs first but after reading about so many people killing them during assembly i thought safer to try something simpler first.
> 
> Sound and comfort is good.  Found the sound best with no damper or just the grey one.  White was a bit dark.
> 
> ...


Same reason why I turned to airbrushing. But I can also make flat faceplates by brushing.


----------



## Aldo40

If you have pictures of your IEM varnished with airbrush I would be curious to see the result, thanks


----------



## Wgibson

Ok, I'll bite. I can get those 14.2mm planars for about 65 USD a pair on taobao, message me if you have a link with a better price (or if you want me to post my link, no affiliation, don't want to break any rules.)


----------



## slakoth453

Wgibson said:


> Ok, I'll bite. I can get those 14.2mm planars for about 65 USD a pair on taobao, message me if you have a link with a better price (or if you want me to post my link, no affiliation, don't want to break any rules.)


That's where I got them too. Good luck, I'm close to giving up tuning them.


----------



## swtnate

slakoth453 said:


> That's where I got them too. Good luck, I'm close to giving up tuning them.


Whats the biggest issue?  Why give up?  Are you trying to make it do something more than its designed to?  Just curious.


----------



## stegeoc

Been very happy with my first build, thanks for all the help. Made some minor tweaks and removed and redid one of the faceplates, so it is now finished. Tuning and sound is good, but limited by the drivers. Certain music is great but other music lacks a bit of clarity and distortion creeps in at high volumes.

Next in line is the GV which should be a big step up, so I have a couple more questions first.

Firstly, is there a zobel recommended for the GV? I’ve found it discussed in this thread but haven’t found a definitive answer or values. Not sure if matters but my normal source is the Ifi Go Blu which I’m guessing isn’t too affected by impedance swings.

Secondly, to blend the faceplates to the shells better I thought it might be better this time to fix, grind and wet sand them before I add any electronics. Then remove them and refit at the end (with minor finishing). Is there any reason not to do it this way? I was a bit nervous last time grinding and sanding them when everything was finished.

Thanks!


----------



## Wgibson

Planar tuning outline, based on experience with single 10mm planar

Get a sealed rear vent measurement and one fully open, then put the damper it comes with back on, and leave it there for now. 

Next add a rear chamber, get measurements with this chamber totally sealed vs heavily damped, try different materials (different kinds of tape or tuning fabric, multiple layers) and/or different orifice sizes, small, start with the smallest hole you can make, pin hole in a piece of solid tape. Try different volumes of the chamber also. This can be a cut tube with a disc of plastic on top, or you could try a solid cylinder and drill out a chamber, hardwood maybe.

Strongly suggest that you start manually because you will have a lot of iterations, try to get 90% there before 3d printing if possible, faster feedback loop doing it by hand.

You can leave the rear damper fabric  on the driver for this, just put the chamber on top of it. Mess with that damping later if needed, see your first two curves and if the shape change would improve your curves with the chamber and damper on the driver.

This is how you can manipulate the bass shelf, and the drop in the curve around 300- 1khz helps set up for the pinna peak. It is complicated and VERY difficult to get repeatable results, but not impossible, assuming this 14.2mm behaves similar to the 10mm.

Rear damper - if you increase the damping value, you can increase 10khz and up response. Again, all comments based on single 10mm planar tuning, I expect them to translate pretty well.

Don't give up, you could always accept flat/neutral bass and add a single or double BA for pinna, poke that BA nozzle into the side of your planar acoustic chamber, with a short piece of tube if needed.

Rambling a bit, but hope this helps.


----------



## Wgibson

Also, no front vent, no nozzle damping at all if possible, stainless mesh only. Driver flex is likely, but if you use a vented BA for pinna, it should be ok.


----------



## devmeista

For my first build, I’m planning to stick to simple.  I like the idea of using a single BA to experiment with filters and resistors.  I grabbed a couple ED-29689 as I saw it was used in some of the er4 ety iems.  Does anyone know if the factory configuration is wired straight to mmcx jack, or are there any components installed in that path? I have some er2se I could look at but I’ve heard it’s rough to see anything worthwhile without destroying them. 

Anyone have any baseline for a good place to start with this driver for tube length, diameter, wiring etc?


----------



## stegeoc

stegeoc said:


> Been very happy with my first build, thanks for all the help. Made some minor tweaks and removed and redid one of the faceplates, so it is now finished. Tuning and sound is good, but limited by the drivers. Certain music is great but other music lacks a bit of clarity and distortion creeps in at high volumes.
> 
> Next in line is the GV which should be a big step up, so I have a couple more questions first.
> 
> ...


Sorry, one more question. The GVs (and many others) have cloth vents that can be removed for more bass. Do these small cloth circles peel off easily and can you put them back? The taped vents look easy to remove but not sure about the cloth ones. Also when the vents are opened up like this, does the seal on the shell and air volume start affecting the sound? Presumably you won’t know what it sounds like until you seal everything up? Thanks


----------



## slakoth453

Wgibson said:


> Planar tuning outline, based on experience with single 10mm planar
> 
> Get a sealed rear vent measurement and one fully open, then put the damper it comes with back on, and leave it there for now.
> 
> ...


Thanks, I basically did all of these things. Thought about doing a hybrid and actually tried it with some BAs I harvested from old iems but it didn't quite work so I'll have to get some different drivers. Then I still have the problem that I can only get the bass to be flat all the way to 1k and haven't figured out how to get a 300hz to 1k dip like you said. I also don't want to add another bass driver because the planar takes up so much space and at that point I'd just be covering it up. What annoys me is that there are so many sets out there using the same drivers that all measure very close to each other but I can't get anywhere near that.


----------



## mattmatt

stegeoc said:


> Been very happy with my first build, thanks for all the help. Made some minor tweaks and removed and redid one of the faceplates, so it is now finished. Tuning and sound is good, but limited by the drivers. Certain music is great but other music lacks a bit of clarity and distortion creeps in at high volumes.
> 
> Next in line is the GV which should be a big step up, so I have a couple more questions first.
> 
> ...


Why complicate it and do it twice? Just slap it once all done and grind them  that's how I do mine in my case and a lot of companies do to.


----------



## musmecca

stegeoc said:


> Been very happy with my first build, thanks for all the help. Made some minor tweaks and removed and redid one of the faceplates, so it is now finished. Tuning and sound is good, but limited by the drivers. Certain music is great but other music lacks a bit of clarity and distortion creeps in at high volumes.
> 
> Next in line is the GV which should be a big step up, so I have a couple more questions first.
> 
> ...


I started assembling faceplates to shells....I have some pics in the thread a ways back...then grinding, polishing, and 1st law coat. I then exacto the faceplate off and reassemble. This way helps me really bevel the faceplate/shell interface for a good look. I did catch an edge once and it ripped everything in half, tearing up my connections. That's why I do it this way now....I'm not as good as matt! Lol


----------



## mattmatt

musmecca said:


> I started assembling faceplates to shells....I have some pics in the thread a ways back...then grinding, polishing, and 1st law coat. I then exacto the faceplate off and reassemble. This way helps me really bevel the faceplate/shell interface for a good look. I did catch an edge once and it ripped everything in half, tearing up my connections. That's why I do it this way now....I'm not as good as matt! Lol


The problem with this step is the unnecessary exposure to UV especially for clear shells and faceplate. 

Nah man. I'm not that good too. I just have the muscle memory from making hundreds of pairs already.


----------



## mattmatt

Aldo40 said:


> If you have pictures of your IEM varnished with airbrush I would be curious to see the result, thanks


Here ya go my man.


----------



## mattmatt

Tho right now, in some cases I laser cut my faceplates to the exact shape and dimensions of the shell since I don't trim impressions anymore. I scan them, 3D model them and 3D print them so I have basically the way to perfectly cut or even make an outline to cut the faceplate. 

My method:
1. Scan impressions
2. Trim impressions via 3D modeling. 
3. Export a dxf file in in the shape of the trimmed impressions.
4. Print impressions
5. Either laser cut or create an outline to cut the faceplate from the dxf file i made.


----------



## discus123

mattmatt said:


> Here ya go my man.


Wa,  that looks very Prof.


----------



## Xymordos

slakoth453 said:


> Thanks, I basically did all of these things. Thought about doing a hybrid and actually tried it with some BAs I harvested from old iems but it didn't quite work so I'll have to get some different drivers. Then I still have the problem that I can only get the bass to be flat all the way to 1k and haven't figured out how to get a 300hz to 1k dip like you said. I also don't want to add another bass driver because the planar takes up so much space and at that point I'd just be covering it up. What annoys me is that there are so many sets out there using the same drivers that all measure very close to each other but I can't get anywhere near that.



Damp the back vent a bit more and it should dip actually. I also just used a BA for the pinna.


----------



## stegeoc

mattmatt said:


> Tho right now, in some cases I laser cut my faceplates to the exact shape and dimensions of the shell since I don't trim impressions anymore. I scan them, 3D model them and 3D print them so I have basically the way to perfectly cut or even make an outline to cut the faceplate.
> 
> My method:
> 1. Scan impressions
> ...


Wow, this is leagues away from what I'm doing with my dremel.   I started with rejected impressions (the good ones were sent off) and did a poor job of cutting/fixing them so have made life difficult from the beginning.  Having everything digital sounds like such a luxury


----------



## stegeoc

musmecca said:


> I started assembling faceplates to shells....I have some pics in the thread a ways back...then grinding, polishing, and 1st law coat. I then exacto the faceplate off and reassemble. This way helps me really bevel the faceplate/shell interface for a good look. I did catch an edge once and it ripped everything in half, tearing up my connections. That's why I do it this way now....I'm not as good as matt! Lol


I'm glad I'm not the only one. Maybe I'm heavy handed but I like to run them under water when sanding as I can't get them smooth otherwise.  I'm going to try this way but I have realised that the shape of the faceplates isn't great or consistent and there isn't much I can do about that now.  Mostly down to the way I cut (and patched up) the original impressions which is way more difficult than I'd thought.  Digital is definitely the way to go if you can


----------



## Aldo40

mattmatt said:


> Tho right now, in some cases I laser cut my faceplates to the exact shape and dimensions of the shell since I don't trim impressions anymore. I scan them, 3D model them and 3D print them so I have basically the way to perfectly cut or even make an outline to cut the faceplate.
> 
> My method:
> 1. Scan impressions
> ...


on my side I model the 360 fusion faceplates to the shell size, I send this to my 3D printer directly

https://ibb.co/ZBsTsLz

https://ibb.co/r2mvsxq


----------



## mattmatt

discus123 said:


> Wa,  that looks very Prof.


Thank you! I appreciate your comment


----------



## mattmatt

Aldo40 said:


> on my side I model the 360 fusion faceplates to the shell size, I send this to my 3D printer directly
> 
> https://ibb.co/ZBsTsLz
> 
> https://ibb.co/r2mvsxq


Oh nice! How did you create your shells? 

We somehow have the same process I guess.


----------



## mattmatt

stegeoc said:


> Wow, this is leagues away from what I'm doing with my dremel.   I started with rejected impressions (the good ones were sent off) and did a poor job of cutting/fixing them so have made life difficult from the beginning.  Having everything digital sounds like such a luxury


Oh man. I've been doing the regular stuff like trimming and waxing for years on end. Just started with the new method for a couple of months now.


----------



## Aldo40 (Apr 19, 2022)

mattmatt said:


> Oh nice! How did you create your shells?
> 
> We somehow have the same process I guess.


I changed my method a little bit I mainly use meshmixer to cut STL files, then I make a hollow in a part of the shell leaving the nozzle full.
Then I pass my file in F360 
just to add tubes and connector notch


----------



## mattmatt

Aldo40 said:


> I changed my method a little bit I mainly use meshmixer to cut STL files, then I make a hollow in a part of the shell leaving the nozzle full.
> Then I pass my file in F360
> just to add tubes and connector notch


That was actually what I did back then. I slice the canal off, hollow out the shell(which leaves the canal solid) and combine them together. Now I hollow them out again entirely and do everything in F360.


----------



## Aldo40

It’s funny I did that before lol the main thing is that we are comfortable with our respective methods, the result is the same in the end


----------



## devmeista

mattmatt said:


> Tho right now, in some cases I laser cut my faceplates to the exact shape and dimensions of the shell since I don't trim impressions anymore. I scan them, 3D model them and 3D print them so I have basically the way to perfectly cut or even make an outline to cut the faceplate.
> 
> My method:
> 1. Scan impressions
> ...


What are you using to scan?


----------



## mattmatt

Aldo40 said:


> It’s funny I did that before lol the main thing is that we are comfortable with our respective methods, the result is the same in the end


Yeah! That's what it means to have their own method. It's just funny that we it's basically the opposite for us in methodology but same results nonetheless.


----------



## mattmatt

devmeista said:


> What are you using to scan?


Forgot the model but it's from siemens and it's really built for scanning impressions.


----------



## Aldo40 (Apr 19, 2022)

mattmatt said:


> Yeah! That's what it means to have their own method. It's just funny that we it's basically the opposite for us in methodology but same results nonetheless.


In fact I chose this method because it is the one where I go the fastest lol

I have to put two minutes under meshmixer to dig and make the nozzle full and then the 3D tubes have to take me 10 minutes maximum on fusion360

I even think I made a video under meshmixer


----------



## swtnate

mattmatt said:


> Tho right now, in some cases I laser cut my faceplates to the exact shape and dimensions of the shell since I don't trim impressions anymore. I scan them, 3D model them and 3D print them so I have basically the way to perfectly cut or even make an outline to cut the faceplate.
> 
> My method:
> 1. Scan impressions
> ...


After creating the shell and cutting down to proper size, i place the shell on top vinyl adhesive. Then i use an xacto to cut out the shape.  I remove that sticker of the shape and place that on the blank.  I then use a bench grinder to remove excess and the dremel to clean up edges.  After, install parts.  

Use receiver tape to cover sound bores and painters tape to cover the 2-pin.  Use a brightly lit background to check for gaps before finish buffing.  I buff the whole shell with p400 prior to any installation so I dont have to buff the shell post install.  Less catastrophic failure that way. 😂😂


----------



## swtnate

@mattmatt hows that detax shellac?


----------



## mattmatt

swtnate said:


> @mattmatt hows that detax shellac?


Order is still processing. My god. Being in asia is freaking hassle.


----------



## Aldo40

I’ve had the shellac for a week I’ve dipped the shell directly into it because there’s no brush that comes with it so the result is fine . I will test with airbrush to see


----------



## Aldo40

For those who use airbrush, what nozzle diameter did you use?


----------



## mattmatt

Aldo40 said:


> For those who use airbrush, what nozzle diameter did you use?


.4 mm


----------



## piotrus-g

Aldo40 said:


> I will test with airbrush to see


Please make sure to do it in properly ventilated area (laquering chamber) and wear chemical protective mask. Methacrylate aerosol is no joke when breathed in.


----------



## Aldo40

piotrus-g said:


> Please make sure to do it in properly ventilated area (laquering chamber) and wear chemical protective mask. Methacrylate aerosol is no joke when breathed in.


Thank you Piotr for reminding me about the safety measures,   I know them very well, I am also a shaper and a surfboard glasser so the 3M bi cartridge mask must have just been 20 years that I wear it  and polyester resin and styrene is even more harmful


----------



## mattmatt

piotrus-g said:


> Please make sure to do it in properly ventilated area (laquering chamber) and wear chemical protective mask. Methacrylate aerosol is no joke when breathed in.


Thank you for always looking out for us! 

Yes! Forgot to mention that. Use a chamber or anything with good ventilation/exhaust.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

piotrus-g said:


> Please make sure to do it in properly ventilated area (laquering chamber) and wear chemical protective mask. Methacrylate aerosol is no joke when breathed in.


its actually painful,,, and bois, yup
piotr is right


----------



## piotrus-g

Aldo40 said:


> 3M bi cartridge mask must have just been 20 years that I wear it


Yeah that's the one + good fume exhaust with proper filter


----------



## swtnate

Aldo40 said:


> For those who use airbrush, what nozzle diameter did you use?


some come with a .36 others come with a .6.  Ive had the most success with the gravity fed using the .36.  Be REALLY careful during clean-up.  The sharp needle point is easily bent.


----------



## swtnate

piotrus-g said:


> Yeah that's the one + good fume exhaust with proper filter


I use mobile AC unit pointed away.  So, it just exhausts the air to circulate.


----------



## swtnate

If you create too much over spray, you might want to get a body paint suit with hood.  Theyre not expensive at all.  Plus, it prevents any small hairs from falling.


----------



## swtnate

Aldo40 said:


> I’ve had the shellac for a week I’ve dipped the shell directly into it because there’s no brush that comes with it so the result is fine . I will test with airbrush to see


Frcolor Disposable Lip Gloss Brushes Lipstick Wands Applicator Flat Brush Makeup Cosmetic Tools (100 Pcs) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B06Y3SBF17/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_S775ZBPMZCDZB2FQ11YD?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1

these ftw.


----------



## stegeoc

GV done. Made quite a few mistakes again, but I’m happy with the result and have been enjoying the sound after a bit of tweaking/damper rolling.






This spurred me to think about fixing/improving some UM3X reshells that lost their bass some time ago and have been consigned to the back of the drawer. I cracked them open and (after fixing the wiring that all got pulled out) found them to be working fine, so I put new tubes on and they sound much better, even without properly reassembling. It seems the problem was leaky tubes (on both sides).

Anyway, before putting them back together I was wondering if I should add one of more RAB 32257s that I have. I think there is room for 2 or even 4 of those on each side. Any thoughts?

The UM3X unit (CI-22955 + TWFK-30017) is about 120 dB/mW and 46 ohms, RAB is about 112dB and average 48 ohms.  I'm not sure if those measurements are comparable though. 

Would something like (RAB + RAB) in parallel with (UM3X + RAB) make an interesting mix? From what I understand the RABs are pretty much full range so there should be a lot of room for error.

My soldering skills are pretty awful so the chance of success drastically reduces the more complicated it gets, but I’m up for a challenge! Cheers


----------



## catlord

How do I make faceplates? I have the shells ready but if I just try putting some fotoplast on glass and exposing it to UV it stays sticky on top, thought the problem were the alcohol dyes or acrylic inks I tried but even plain fotoplast behaves the same, not sure what to do


----------



## stegeoc (Apr 26, 2022)

catlord said:


> How do I make faceplates? I have the shells ready but if I just try putting some fotoplast on glass and exposing it to UV it stays sticky on top, thought the problem were the alcohol dyes or acrylic inks I tried but even plain fotoplast behaves the same, not sure what to do


I also struggled with faceplates, but you can do what you do with the shell and dump it in glycerin (after it is mostly cured) and carry on curing


----------



## catlord

stegeoc said:


> I also struggled with faceplates, but you can do what you do with the shell and dump it in glycerin (after it is mostly cured) and carry on curing


Ok, I'll try a second cure with glycerine/glysol, thanks!


----------



## mckpaul

Check out this older post by Shilohsjustice for making faceplates out of fotoplast...Post #4,745 of 13,930 There are several post about other materials like wood for faceplates, or even guitar pics. You can really get creative.


----------



## catlord

mckpaul said:


> Check out this older post by Shilohsjustice for making faceplates out of fotoplast...Post #4,745 of 13,930 There are several post about other materials like wood for faceplates, or even guitar pics. You can really get creative.


looks very useful, didn't think of flipping the glass too, thank you!


----------



## kmmm

Question I’ve been struggling with. How do I decide if the BA should be wired in series or parallel internally and/or externally. Could anyone give me a simple explanation how to decide this?


----------



## Wgibson

Parallel, unless you want to do a lot more circuit design. General question, or specific drivers?


----------



## swtnate

catlord said:


> Ok, I'll try a second cure with glycerine/glysol, thanks!


Sandwich the resin between two pieces of glass.  Glycerine will give you ripples.  OR, cure it out longer and then a sonic bath in 99% IPA for 10-15 minutes.  Wipe down with a clean cloth.

the easiest is sandwiching between glass.  I use a pieces of a cut up old credit card for proper thickness.  If the resin sandwiched is too thick, the glass becomes harder to separate.


----------



## mattmatt

I just pour in glass, cure it a bit to a proper solid, just wipe of the inhibition layer and slap it on the shell and adhere it. Once trimmed I'll pour on the faceplate another layer of resin. That would give it a nice flat but a but domed faceplate. Sandwiching resin in between glass is a method I'll use if I need to engrave something on the faceplate. Having a smooth top makes it easier to fill in the engraved parts.


----------



## catlord

swtnate said:


> Sandwich the resin between two pieces of glass.  Glycerine will give you ripples.  OR, cure it out longer and then a sonic bath in 99% IPA for 10-15 minutes.  Wipe down with a clean cloth.
> 
> the easiest is sandwiching between glass.  I use a pieces of a cut up old credit card for proper thickness.  If the resin sandwiched is too thick, the glass becomes harder to separate.


That sounds like a very good way (and an easy one) to have the same thickness for faceplates and oxygen-free curing, just need to find another piece of glass that fits in my curing chamber and I'll try this first, thank you!


----------



## catlord (Apr 27, 2022)

mattmatt said:


> I just pour in glass, cure it a bit to a proper solid, just wipe of the inhibition layer and slap it on the shell and adhere it. Once trimmed I'll pour on the faceplate another layer of resin. That would give it a nice flat but a but domed faceplate. Sandwiching resin in between glass is a method I'll use if I need to engrave something on the faceplate. Having a smooth top makes it easier to fill in the engraved parts.


Haven't tried cleaning it, is ipa ok? Composition seems similar to sla resins. Makes sense if that works tho, I'd have to use lack3 on top regardless.

Ipa worked fine, it's now matte but I think lack3/5k sandpaper will make it shine, now I just need to find a nice color to use, thank you very much again


----------



## Opalius

Just out of curiosity here, -  but has anyone just made a single BA ciem that has the same frequency response as a Ety ER4XR? 
What driver have you used? My best guess would be Knowles RAB-32257-000? but would I be wrong? 

Also, I have measured my ER4XR on a minidsp,- the mesurements look "corret", - could I be able to use the mesurements as a reference or do they need to be made on something else?


----------



## kmmm (Apr 27, 2022)

Wgibson said:


> Parallel, unless you want to do a lot more circuit design. General question, or specific drivers?


38D1XJ -2x28uap01 - E50.
And a genral question


----------



## musmecca (Apr 27, 2022)

An alternate method for building faceplates is to get a small diameter shallow glass bowl. Pour your resin, then mix in whatever colorants or effects you want. I then cure mine for a minute to solidify, then pour glycerin on top to finish. This prevents the inhibition layer which I hate messing with. It also allows for depth and light effect.s in the faceplate. You have to cut in half then sand down and shape a little more, but final finish is Laq3 anyway so covers imperfections and is worth the effort in my opinion. Of course, I've used the two sheets of glass which works well but it doesnt appear as three dimensional as the deeper blanks.  I have attached some examples.


----------



## Wgibson (Apr 28, 2022)

Parallel:
1)28uap's full range, maybe in series with each other?
2)E50, single cap high pass
3) And a resistor. Resistor is optional if the mid is full range, but you need the resistor if you high pass all those drivers. Plus, this is perfect to adjust bass because it leaves 2khz and up 99% unaffected. Plus it acts like an L-pad to mitigate impedance of those drivers.

Then 38d1xj in series (after all that) with a cap (100+uf )in parallel for low pass. Get the 38d1xj electrically out of the way at higher frequencies, and if you switch in more caps here you can adjust the bass shelf.

I posted a better circuit description with some pictures earlier in the thread, the one with the switches and trimpot. It was 4BA Sonion 20x53, 23x62, and knowles 33803, low/mid/high respectively. Sounded good, I'd use that circuit again but probably skip the trimpot, pretty cool but not worth the hassle.

Edit: adding dayton imm6 curve of the 4BA for clarity:


----------



## ValSuki

Heya all, just wanted to ask, has anyone here or so made a DIY iem but universal? I'd be curious to see who has made ones like that and if they offer their own models.


----------



## swtnate (Apr 30, 2022)

LMGTFY

https://lmgtfy.app/?q=handmade+universal+iem

😂😂😂😭😭😭


----------



## swtnate

Has anyone installed something like the etymotic ER-15 filter for custom and universal musicians earphones?  If so, what does that look like?  What does it sound like? and would you do it again?

I'm exploring a hybrid type earpiece that can vent by in a restricted fashion.  A number of my friends an colleagues serve at their local churches.  A LOT of these types of people are asking for some venting or room ambiance without sacrificing overall performance of the IEMs.

Thoughts? Concerns?  Knowing my luck, @piotrus-g already holds the international patent on the process and production.  I will probably owe him financial compensation...

lol😬😬😬🤨🤨


----------



## mattmatt

swtnate said:


> Has anyone installed something like the etymotic ER-15 filter for custom and universal musicians earphones?  If so, what does that look like?  What does it sound like? and would you do it again?
> 
> I'm exploring a hybrid type earpiece that can vent by in a restricted fashion.  A number of my friends an colleagues serve at their local churches.  A LOT of these types of people are asking for some venting or room ambiance without sacrificing overall performance of the IEMs.
> 
> ...


Is there a venting system from Custom Art? The only one I know of is from FiR and 64 Audio. UE and Vision Ears now have venting systems too but pretty sure not for ambience.


----------



## slakoth453

ValSuki said:


> Heya all, just wanted to ask, has anyone here or so made a DIY iem but universal? I'd be curious to see who has made ones like that and if they offer their own models.


I only make UIEMs because my ear canals are very small which makes CIEMs hard to build, plus this way other people can try them. There's a link to some of my shells on page 920 but you'll have to add the bores either in meshmixer or drill them.


----------



## swtnate

mattmatt said:


> Is there a venting system from Custom Art? The only one I know of is from FiR and 64 Audio. UE and Vision Ears now have venting systems too but pretty sure not for ambience.


Interesting.  Ive never had any issues with pressure fatigue.  Interesting.


----------



## mattmatt

swtnate said:


> Interesting.  Ive never had any issues with pressure fatigue.  Interesting.


The vacuum/seal is not comfortable for everybody, I guess.


----------



## Wgibson

I've only made universals, none for sale.

For hearing ambient sounds, there are some noise canceling tws earbuds that do this, and you can adjust how much is blended in. I forget which ones.

Other solution is looser fit, or some vent, but either way you lose bass.


----------



## stegeoc

Can anyone help me with a simple series/parallel query?  I put together a quad of RABs, 2 sets of 2 in parallel, each set connected in series.  Only now that I've wired it up (and it was very fiddly) have I realised that I could have wired it slightly differently with 2 sets of 2 in series, each set wired in parallel.

Now I'm not sure if I've made a mistake.  It works fine but I don't understand how this changes how the drivers interact with each other.  I plan on adding a zobel across the whole set later

Thanks


----------



## Wgibson

Six of one, half dozen of the other. Maybe if you crossed them differently and had each driver playing something slightly different within one pair, it could have a small effect. 

But there shouldn't be any difference as you describe.


----------



## stegeoc (May 1, 2022)

Thanks.  Will leave it as is then.  I won't be doing anything more complicated but may open one of more of the vents.

The plan is to add this to my UM3X drivers as I have that apart anyway.  No idea how to judge the blend, so was thinking of adding a trim pot.

Does this sound worth doing?  Any obvious mistakes?  Thanks again!

Edit: looks like I drew the CI polarity wrong, but you know what I mean


----------



## piotrus-g

swtnate said:


> Has anyone installed something like the etymotic ER-15 filter for custom and universal musicians earphones?  If so, what does that look like?  What does it sound like? and would you do it again?
> 
> I'm exploring a hybrid type earpiece that can vent by in a restricted fashion.  A number of my friends an colleagues serve at their local churches.  A LOT of these types of people are asking for some venting or room ambiance without sacrificing overall performance of the IEMs.
> 
> ...


I think in that case Mr. Jerry Harvey might be the one though I might be wrong.
Something similar would be also a subject of patent of one Stephen Ambrose of Asius Technology or what you might know as ADEL module.
APEX is slightly different than ADEL

Anyways vented shells have been around for some time, I think using regular Knowles filter would put you in a green for commercial use.


----------



## cjh1041

Hello
I'm trying to make my first IEM. I was going for masm 7, but I cannot find any stores that sell Bellsing 10013 driver.
So I was thinking masm 3 pro, but I'm afraid it might have too much treble. I am sensitive to hissing.
Can someone please recommend a receipt that has similar characteristics to MASM 7?
I am looking for vocal and high with some bass. If MASM 3 pro does not have hissing, I am willing to go with it.
Thank you.


----------



## Wgibson

stegeoc said:


> Thanks.  Will leave it as is then.  I won't be doing anything more complicated but may open one of more of the vents.
> 
> The plan is to add this to my UM3X drivers as I have that apart anyway.  No idea how to judge the blend, so was thinking of adding a trim pot.
> 
> ...



What if you put the 4x 32257 in series, zobel, and your 30 ohm resistor could be a switch or two, to adjust resistance.

The trimpot really isn't that practical, you can't adjust on the fly, you have to measure/match each time. Switches can be more interesting, see how different music sounds with different driver mix in this case. And you can do back to back testing instantly. Get some small dip switches, trust me. Unless you think you can settle on one mix  for everything...


----------



## stegeoc

Wgibson said:


> What if you put the 4x 32257 in series, zobel, and your 30 ohm resistor could be a switch or two, to adjust resistance.
> 
> The trimpot really isn't that practical, you can't adjust on the fly, you have to measure/match each time. Switches can be more interesting, see how different music sounds with different driver mix in this case. And you can do back to back testing instantly. Get some small dip switches, trust me. Unless you think you can settle on one mix  for everything...


Unfortunately the RABs are soldered and glued and I'd probably break something switching to series.  Dip switches sounds nice but I don't think i have the skill to make them accessible from the outside.  Is that what you are proposing?  Is there an easy way of doing that? 

I was thinking of just finding a good mix (mostly by ear) and sealing it up for good.  I suppose it might be possible to make the trim pot accessible from outside though via a tiny hole.. Something to think about. 

The Um3x side is very sensitive so I'm not sure what resistances would be needed.  Would you put a set of dip switches for each side (um3x and RABs) or just choose one and fix the other?  I suppose a test setup and breadboard might come in handy here to find some suitable values for fixed resistors..  Getting quite a lot more involved now!


----------



## stegeoc

cjh1041 said:


> Hello
> I'm trying to make my first IEM. I was going for masm 7, but I cannot find any stores that sell Bellsing 10013 driver.
> So I was thinking masm 3 pro, but I'm afraid it might have too much treble. I am sensitive to hissing.
> Can someone please recommend a receipt that has similar characteristics to MASM 7?
> ...


I'm not able to make any suggestions, but I thought that hissing was normally down to the amp noise floor and overly sensitive iems.  As you're building them, I would have thought you'd be able to add a small resistor to reduce the sensitivity if needed.  And as for treble, you can always use a heavier damper or place it closer to the end to filter out any extra treble you don't like.

I was also interested in getting a BS6 after the praise here, but also had problems.  Living out in Asia I thought that maybe I'd be able to get one despite the legal case brought by Knowles, but it seems not.  Sounds like a rare case of western intellectual property winning out over the Chinese


----------



## cjh1041

stegeoc said:


> I'm not able to make any suggestions, but I thought that hissing was normally down to the amp noise floor and overly sensitive iems.  As you're building them, I would have thought you'd be able to add a small resistor to reduce the sensitivity if needed.  And as for treble, you can always use a heavier damper or place it closer to the end to filter out any extra treble you don't like.
> 
> I was also interested in getting a BS6 after the praise here, but also had problems.  Living out in Asia I thought that maybe I'd be able to get one despite the legal case brought by Knowles, but it seems not.  Sounds like a rare case of western intellectual property winning out over the Chinese


Thank you for the reply.
Looks like the original MASM 3 pro receipt has a 4uf capacitor and 41 ohms resistor. Do you think these will ease the treble and get rid of hissing if there is any?
I think I'm going with 3 pro... I guess I just have to make one myself and see how it is.


----------



## stegeoc

cjh1041 said:


> Thank you for the reply.
> Looks like the original MASM 3 pro receipt has a 4uf capacitor and 41 ohms resistor. Do you think these will ease the treble and get rid of hissing if there is any?
> I think I'm going with 3 pro... I guess I just have to make one myself and see how it is.


That's the zobel which is designed to flatten the impedance curve. Any extra resistor in series with the driver will reduce the sensitivity and reduce hiss


----------



## dhruvmeena96

cjh1041 said:


> Thank you for the reply.
> Looks like the original MASM 3 pro receipt has a 4uf capacitor and 41 ohms resistor. Do you think these will ease the treble and get rid of hissing if there is any?
> I think I'm going with 3 pro... I guess I just have to make one myself and see how it is.
> 
> ...


MASM author here
i added zobel so that adding resistor don't skew the FR much. One advantage of having zobel
but i have never experienced MASM series hissing
either your amp noise floor very bad or maybe you listen pretty loud
or, i guess, there is some issue with amp or iem components which is coming as noise rather than hissing

so do crosscheck


----------



## IEMbiker

Alternative to BS6, here are the link for e-audio 61718 6BA.
I have not try it yet but frequent buyer from this shop. so far, all the thing purchased are good.
The store graph look a bit different but they are good. 

Aliexpress Link: LS 61718


----------



## stegeoc

IEMbiker said:


> Alternative to BS6, here are the link for e-audio 61718 6BA.
> I have not try it yet but frequent buyer from this shop. so far, all the thing purchased are good.
> The store graph look a bit different but they are good.
> 
> Aliexpress Link: LS 61718


Very interesting.  Would be interested to try.  They have a 000 and 001 version, have you any idea what the difference is?  Looks like a different crossover, but there is only one set of details


----------



## IEMbiker

stegeoc said:


> Very interesting.  Would be interested to try.  They have a 000 and 001 version, have you any idea what the difference is?  Looks like a different crossover, but there is only one set of details


look like the impedance is different, the 001 version have flatter impedance range.


----------



## cjh1041

dhruvmeena96 said:


> MASM author here
> i added zobel so that adding resistor don't skew the FR much. One advantage of having zobel
> but i have never experienced MASM series hissing
> either your amp noise floor very bad or maybe you listen pretty loud
> ...


That's good to hear.
I thought the hissing noise comes from the emphasis of treble especially FR around 3k-5k.


----------



## cjh1041

Regarding an IEM shell, can I use a cheap UV resin from Amazon like JDiction? Looks like it's not toxic anymore if it's fully cured.
Is there a benefit to using high-quality resin like Loctite or Egger?


----------



## stegeoc

cjh1041 said:


> Regarding an IEM shell, can I use a cheap UV resin from Amazon like JDiction? Looks like it's not toxic anymore if it's fully cured.
> Is there a benefit to using high-quality resin like Loctite or Egger?


My first pair included one side done with proper resin and one done with cheap resin (not deliberately, they were just the best candidates I had).  I lost track of which was which after a while and figured it should be fine as I was finishing them in Lack 3 anyway.  If you're not using lacquer then I am not sure.  I guess if you do get any irritation you can always park them until you have some lacquer on hand


----------



## mattmatt

swtnate said:


> @mattmatt hows that detax shellac?


They arrived! Yay. Excited to try em out. Curious, do you thin them down with the method I use or no? I'm sure they can be used directly tho. Also, have you measured around how many ML per pair you use with airbrush? I'm curious if we're approx the same amount.


----------



## Aldo40

mattmatt said:


> They arrived! Yay. Excited to try em out. Curious, do you thin them down with the method I use or no? I'm sure they can be used directly tho. Also, have you measured around how many ML per pair you use with airbrush? I'm curious if we're approx the same amount.


then I use the same method as with lac3 it works very well  
not yet tested my airbrush


----------



## mattmatt

Aldo40 said:


> then I use the same method as with lac3 it works very well
> not yet tested my airbrush


do you have a rough estimate how much ml you use by brushing it manually? kinda curious how much the difference is with the airbrush


----------



## Aldo40

So no idea 
I think the equivalent of 2ml may be but I say may be a mistake


----------



## Aldo40

Since the airbrush is thinner, I imagine that you need an extremely well-sanded surface without the slightest defect. It sometimes takes small strokes on some place to fill in some sanding irregularities and the classic brush and very well for that. These shellac varnishes, lake3 and many others are self-smoothing so it is not a problem of leveling, after 15 minutes turn without UV, everything is perfectly smooth and we can start to light UV.
The airbrush has an advantage, it is more economical, only the surface state must be prepared to perfection if one does not want to iron several layers


----------



## mattmatt

Aldo40 said:


> Since the airbrush is thinner, I imagine that you need an extremely well-sanded surface without the slightest defect. It sometimes takes small strokes on some place to fill in some sanding irregularities and the classic brush and very well for that. These shellac varnishes, lake3 and many others are self-smoothing so it is not a problem of leveling, after 15 minutes turn without UV, everything is perfectly smooth and we can start to light UV.
> The airbrush has an advantage, it is more economical, only the surface state must be prepared to perfection if one does not want to iron several layers


It's actually more expensive as I can tell. To me, it looks like I use more material to coat a same number of pairs.


----------



## Aldo40

With airbrush or  classic brush ?


----------



## swtnate

mattmatt said:


> They arrived! Yay. Excited to try em out. Curious, do you thin them down with the method I use or no? I'm sure they can be used directly tho. Also, have you measured around how many ML per pair you use with airbrush? I'm curious if we're approx the same amount.


The brushability is insanely good.  With the airbrush, I just use it straightforward.  Regarding usage, its a bit the same.  However, the amount of rework or touch-up is next to none.  I only apply one coat if its all done correctly.


----------



## swtnate

stegeoc said:


> My first pair included one side done with proper resin and one done with cheap resin (not deliberately, they were just the best candidates I had).  I lost track of which was which after a while and figured it should be fine as I was finishing them in Lack 3 anyway.  If you're not using lacquer then I am not sure.  I guess if you do get any irritation you can always park them until you have some lacquer on hand


With universals, biocompatibility is not essential as the shell will never come in contact with your internal skin.  For customs, its a must.


----------



## swtnate

stegeoc said:


> Unfortunately the RABs are soldered and glued and I'd probably break something switching to series.  Dip switches sounds nice but I don't think i have the skill to make them accessible from the outside.  Is that what you are proposing?  Is there an easy way of doing that?
> 
> I was thinking of just finding a good mix (mostly by ear) and sealing it up for good.  I suppose it might be possible to make the trim pot accessible from outside though via a tiny hole.. Something to think about.
> 
> The Um3x side is very sensitive so I'm not sure what resistances would be needed.  Would you put a set of dip switches for each side (um3x and RABs) or just choose one and fix the other?  I suppose a test setup and breadboard might come in handy here to find some suitable values for fixed resistors..  Getting quite a lot more involved now!


To take some of the soldering pressure away, try using the drivers on ali with lead lines already soldered.  This way, you just focus on the “not so heat sensitive“ components.  Also, you dont have to remove the wires.  Just trim them, apply a tad of flux to each end, tin the tips, and solder them together.  To keep track of polarity, use a black sharpie to color either the + or the -.  Personally, Ive never found success in final eq’s eith drivers soldered in series.  There always winds up being some weird electrical phase issue you have to contend with.


----------



## mattmatt

Aldo40 said:


> With airbrush or  classic brush ?


Airbrush. More waste i think but the time spent is waaaay faster even on turning times.


----------



## stegeoc

swtnate said:


> With universals, biocompatibility is not essential as the shell will never come in contact with your internal skin.  For customs, its a must.


But an outer layer of lack 3 stops the resin having any contact with your skin anyway, right?  So as long as you have that barrier, you should be fine?


----------



## Aldo40

stegeoc said:


> But an outer layer of lack 3 stops the resin having any contact with your skin anyway, right?  So as long as you have that barrier, you should be fine?


Yes  to your question,
Organic resin is an additional safety


----------



## swtnate

stegeoc said:


> But an outer layer of lack 3 stops the resin having any contact with your skin anyway, right?  So as long as you have that barrier, you should be fine?


Without knowing the vapor permability, how much it breathes, its a crap shoot.  I e never used non-bio for customs. I do use non-bio for unis


----------



## stegeoc

dhruvmeena96 said:


> MASM author here
> i added zobel so that adding resistor don't skew the FR much. One advantage of having zobel
> but i have never experienced MASM series hissing
> either your amp noise floor very bad or maybe you listen pretty loud
> ...


Just a quick question on the philosophy of the MASMs.  Is the general idea that you are adding full range drivers to a module that already has a complete sound signature, in order to enhance or fill out the sound? 

It seems a bit counter intuitive that this would improve detail as having different drivers playing the same frequencies, possiblly slightly out of phase, doesn't sound like it would.  Is the design very specific to overcome this, or does it generally not matter?  
Thanks!


----------



## swtnate

stegeoc said:


> Just a quick question on the philosophy of the MASMs.  Is the general idea that you are adding full range drivers to a module that already has a complete sound signature, in order to enhance or fill out the sound?
> 
> It seems a bit counter intuitive that this would improve detail as having different drivers playing the same frequencies, possiblly slightly out of phase, doesn't sound like it would.  Is the design very specific to overcome this, or does it generally not matter?
> Thanks!


Depends on your point of comparison and perspective.  If your comparing response and circuitry to that of loud speakers, while the fundamental elements are similar, the proximity to the source changes the game entirely.  The only REAL time electrical phase comes into play is charging up a parallel capacitor.  Outside of the occasional Zobel (which doesnt effect electrical phase) Ive never used a parallel capacitor.  Then there’s acoustic phase, which is part of tuning process, and polarity.  Driver selection is imperative to a good build.  Doubling up on drivers (ie turning a 5 driver set into a 10 driver) wouldnt necessarily effect soundstage, but you get more headroom and much less THD across different source impedances.


----------



## stegeoc

swtnate said:


> Depends on your point of comparison and perspective.  If your comparing response and circuitry to that of loud speakers, while the fundamental elements are similar, the proximity to the source changes the game entirely.  The only REAL time electrical phase comes into play is charging up a parallel capacitor.  Outside of the occasional Zobel (which doesnt effect electrical phase) Ive never used a parallel capacitor.  Then there’s acoustic phase, which is part of tuning process, and polarity.  Driver selection is imperative to a good build.  Doubling up on drivers (ie turning a 5 driver set into a 10 driver) wouldnt necessarily effect soundstage, but you get more headroom and much less THD across different source impedances.





swtnate said:


> Depends on your point of comparison and perspective.  If your comparing response and circuitry to that of loud speakers, while the fundamental elements are similar, the proximity to the source changes the game entirely.  The only REAL time electrical phase comes into play is charging up a parallel capacitor.  Outside of the occasional Zobel (which doesnt effect electrical phase) Ive never used a parallel capacitor.  Then there’s acoustic phase, which is part of tuning process, and polarity.  Driver selection is imperative to a good build.  Doubling up on drivers (ie turning a 5 driver set into a 10 driver) wouldnt necessarily effect soundstage, but you get more headroom and much less THD across different source impedances.


That's very useful to know, thanks.  With regards to acoustic phase, are you basically referring to the relative length of the tubes?  How that works is still a mystery to me.  Also how do you test and vary the tube length without making anything semi-permanent?  Or is it done using direct measurements without putting the assembly in a shell?


----------



## swtnate

stegeoc said:


> That's very useful to know, thanks.  With regards to acoustic phase, are you basically referring to the relative length of the tubes?  How that works is still a mystery to me.  Also how do you test and vary the tube length without making anything semi-permanent?  Or is it done using direct measurements without putting the assembly in a shell?


I suppose everyone may do it a little different.  However, the SPL curve, for example, is useful in a theoretical sense.  it shows the full capability of the unit from a tested and verified source.  Once the driver(s) are in circuit, they will all behave differently.  This is where driver selection becomes imperative.  You have to first establish what your goal for the soundstage will be. Flat eq, v eq, boosted highs, boosted lows, etc.  Now  we have a target.  I start by wiring every driver into their circuit with one set 3x2 tube @10mm in length.  I then run spl tests, 8 repetition, with each driver(s) in circuit.  Now you can determine if your goal is achievable with the chosen drivers.  Many times, ive established a circuit, tested it, and said, “not impossible or improbable, just gonna be way harder than it shoudl be.”  Dampers flatten out unwanted peaks, resistors cut some high bite and volume  but will push a resonant peak up the spectrum, l-pads lower volume and flatten the resonant peak, series capacitors cut the lows.  Personally, Im extremely mindful of the values for capacitors.  If they get too big in value AND the driver is pulling major juice, electrical and acoustic phase can get effected.  Also to note, acoustic phase almost always, in my experience, is best detected by the human ear.


----------



## stegeoc

swtnate said:


> I suppose everyone may do it a little different.  However, the SPL curve, for example, is useful in a theoretical sense.  it shows the full capability of the unit from a tested and verified source.  Once the driver(s) are in circuit, they will all behave differently.  This is where driver selection becomes imperative.  You have to first establish what your goal for the soundstage will be. Flat eq, v eq, boosted highs, boosted lows, etc.  Now  we have a target.  I start by wiring every driver into their circuit with one set 3x2 tube @10mm in length.  I then run spl tests, 8 repetition, with each driver(s) in circuit.  Now you can determine if your goal is achievable with the chosen drivers.  Many times, ive established a circuit, tested it, and said, “not impossible or improbable, just gonna be way harder than it shoudl be.”  Dampers flatten out unwanted peaks, resistors cut some high bite and volume  but will push a resonant peak up the spectrum, l-pads lower volume and flatten the resonant peak, series capacitors cut the lows.  Personally, Im extremely mindful of the values for capacitors.  If they get too big in value AND the driver is pulling major juice, electrical and acoustic phase can get effected.  Also to note, acoustic phase almost always, in my experience, is best detected by the human ear.


Wow, thanks for the thorough explanation.  Lots to think about! I've ordered a microphone that I can use to make spl graphs, so once I have that I can start exploring all these areas more.  Cheers!


----------



## tomekk

swtnate said:


> With universals, biocompatibility is not essential as the shell will never come in contact with your internal skin. For customs, its a must.


Off topic

If you have sensitive skin, just working with uv resins and uv varnish and isopropanol is a constant battle with skin eczema. If you are sensitive of course.  
It's not that these products are safe for everyone, they are safe for the unsusceptible, sensitive people to skin diseases (30% population) are crushed by uv products such as varnishes and resins (in production mostly).


----------



## Wgibson (May 7, 2022)

There is a recording trick to use two slightly different microphones at the same time, similar principle with different drivers playing the same thing. Its not reverb, not echo, you can barely hear it but I think it adds some depth/presence, a little better soundstage and more natural sound. Take it with a grain of salt because this is something you hear more than you see in measurements, so its an opinion not a fact.

Edit: related question, opinions on crossing drivers directly at the pinna peak? Should you try to overlap more, or is this generally not a problem if the frequency response is good?


----------



## swtnate

Wgibson said:


> There is a recording trick to use two slightly different microphones at the same time, similar principle with different drivers playing the same thing. Its not reverb, not echo, you can barely hear it but I think it adds some depth/presence, a little better soundstage and more natural sound. Take it with a grain of salt because this is something you hear more than you see in measurements, so its an opinion not a fact.
> 
> Edit: related question, opinions on crossing drivers directly at the pinna peak? Should you try to overlap more, or is this generally not a problem if the frequency response is good?


When I first began, I didn't have a test rig.  All I had was this forum and my ears to guide me.  So, I established builds completely tuned by ear using traditional configurations. Once I had 3 solid configurations, I then ponied up for the test microphone.  That's when I tested all 3 configurations.  I knew how they all sounded.  With the SPL graphs, I had a visual representation of what I heard and what I thought was good.  I also use the equalizer window in iTunes to pull up and down certain frequencies to better understand where a build might be giving me some muddiness.  Lastly, I use the IFI attachment for impedance compensation.  That attachment gives me standardization between all drivers.


----------



## swtnate

@mattmatt @Wgibson  Here's a triple driver SPL.  I used a 29689 and 33AJ007i/9.


----------



## mattmatt

swtnate said:


> @mattmatt @Wgibson  Here's a triple driver SPL.  I used a 29689 and 33AJ007i/9.


Looks awesome! I have something similar but tuned differently.


----------



## swtnate

Any one have a preferred method for applying lacquer / shellac to the inside of the shell that allows the coating to fully cure out?  No matter what product i use (Egger, Lack3, NanoScreen, L-1, detax, etc) the inside doesnt cure out in the same way as the outside.  Ive even tried it in a nitrogen environment and submerged in glycerine.  i even bought the Thermosoft curing agent, OxyStop, to see if that would help… nada.  If I could coat the inside of the shell the waxed impression wouldnt have to be SOOO perfect…..


----------



## stegeoc

swtnate said:


> When I first began, I didn't have a test rig.  All I had was this forum and my ears to guide me.  So, I established builds completely tuned by ear using traditional configurations. Once I had 3 solid configurations, I then ponied up for the test microphone.  That's when I tested all 3 configurations.  I knew how they all sounded.  With the SPL graphs, I had a visual representation of what I heard and what I thought was good.  I also use the equalizer window in iTunes to pull up and down certain frequencies to better understand where a build might be giving me some muddiness.  Lastly, I use the IFI attachment for impedance compensation.  That attachment gives me standardization between all drivers.


When you measure SPL of drivers directly, without them being in a shell, do you just stick the standard 1cm tube into your mic coupler and seal with some putty or something?  
When you compare this measurement to the same circuit once it has been added to a proper shell and sealed up, what sort of differences do you normally see in the SPL graphs?  Presumably there is some difference, given that most BAs have some sort of vent?


----------



## mattmatt

stegeoc said:


> When you measure SPL of drivers directly, without them being in a shell, do you just stick the standard 1cm tube into your mic coupler and seal with some putty or something?
> When you compare this measurement to the same circuit once it has been added to a proper shell and sealed up, what sort of differences do you normally see in the SPL graphs?  Presumably there is some difference, given that most BAs have some sort of vent?


I measure with a 0.4cc coupler when directly measuring BA raw FR, that's just for me knowing how it performs compared to other iems. Testing tuning shouldn't be done without your planned tubing/crossover. Peak shifts happen when tubing is installed. Damper position also affects its efficiency. Also. Most BAs actually don't have a vent. IIRC, testing the 38 series, having it in a sealed shell and open shell has negligible difference. Can be wrong tho.


----------



## Aldo40

swtnate said:


> Any one have a preferred method for applying lacquer / shellac to the inside of the shell that allows the coating to fully cure out?  No matter what product i use (Egger, Lack3, NanoScreen, L-1, detax, etc) the inside doesnt cure out in the same way as the outside.  Ive even tried it in a nitrogen environment and submerged in glycerine.  i even bought the Thermosoft curing agent, OxyStop, to see if that would help… nada.  If I could coat the inside of the shell the waxed impression wouldnt have to be SOOO perfect…..


I completely dip the empty shell in the lake3 or shellac, I drain it and I turn a few minutes without UV and then I turn 5 minutes minium in UV


----------



## Aldo40

stegeoc said:


> When you measure SPL of drivers directly, without them being in a shell, do you just stick the standard 1cm tube into your mic coupler and seal with some putty or something?
> When you compare this measurement to the same circuit once it has been added to a proper shell and sealed up, what sort of differences do you normally see in the SPL graphs?  Presumably there is some difference, given that most BAs have some sort of vent?


Me I reproduced a piece in 3D printing that looks like a nozzle or I plug my drivers on it, it gives me curves close to the final, I can change the damper.  
well obviously we can refine the filtering once all the drivers in place in the final shell


----------



## Aldo40

I have quickly made you a model that can serve you.
we can go up to 4 tubes, if you do a 3 tube configuration and well plugged the 4th with blutack.
the holes are made for 2mm tubes with damper at the end of the tube.
There is a 2.05mm hole for fixing a 1mmID tube for bass for example.
there are two 3.10mm holes for 1.5mm ID tube
there is a hole of 3.10mm for tube of 2.00 mm ID for EST
I put a 2 pin connector holder.
renamed the TXT file to STL


----------



## tomekk

RAU-34832-B148 Balanced Armature Supertweeter

Knowles has advanced the state-of-the for in-ear acoustics with the release of its “supertweeter”.  This new balanced armature offers much improved output with the ability to reach an ultra-high frequency of 40kHz, making it ideal for in-ear monitors (IEMs) and true wireless stereo (TWS) earphones.

https://seltech-international.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/receiver-datasheet-rau-34832-b148-1.pdf


----------



## stegeoc

Aldo40 said:


> I have quickly made you a model that can serve you.
> we can go up to 4 tubes, if you do a 3 tube configuration and well plugged the 4th with blutack.
> the holes are made for 2mm tubes with damper at the end of the tube.
> There is a 2.05mm hole for fixing a 1mmID tube for bass for example.
> ...


This looks great.  Don't have a 3D printer, but I guess it should be possible to knock something similar out of some resin.  Worth a think..


----------



## Yuudelvin

mattmatt said:


> Here ya go my man.


How exactly is this done, I'm curious


----------



## musmecca (May 10, 2022)

swtnate said:


> Any one have a preferred method for applying lacquer / shellac to the inside of the shell that allows the coating to fully cure out?  No matter what product i use (Egger, Lack3, NanoScreen, L-1, detax, etc) the inside doesnt cure out in the same way as the outside.  Ive even tried it in a nitrogen environment and submerged in glycerine.  i even bought the Thermosoft curing agent, OxyStop, to see if that would help… nada.  If I could coat the inside of the shell the waxed impression wouldnt have to be SOOO perfect…..


I Use laq 3 as it cures superfast....I dip the entire empty shell. With laq  3, glycerin isn't necessary.  I've seen many who ignore the inside of the shell, but a smooth outside with an unfinished interior yields poor results.


----------



## stegeoc

I did some experimenting with my UM3X and RAB drivers and things got a bit more complicated than I expected and I got a bit lost.

First off, I got my mic so measured the driver sets separately and together and played around with various resistances to use. I wanted to use dip switches to keep options open but in the end I struggled to even fit the drivers in the shells so I went with a mix I thought was working (an 82R resistor in series with UM3X).

However, when I listened in stereo something was seriously wrong in the midrange and the treble was harsh. The frequency response curve looked ok, but there was a massive lack of clarity, possibly phase related, I don’t know. I tried a few things, including the driver sets on their own, and various dampers and nothing really worked or seemed to help me track down the problem.

Eventually, I added a high pass to the UM3X and it actually sounds quite good now, so I may leave it like that. Any thoughts what may have gone wrong, and if my solution is workable? To my ears and limited listening (shells are not fully put together) it sounds ok.

Thanks!

Circuit that didn't sound right:





Rescued circuit?




Frequency response of latest configuration.  Ignore specifics of graph, this is the first time using the mic


----------



## mattmatt

Yuudelvin said:


> How exactly is this done, I'm curious


What exactly? There are a ton of things played here.


----------



## Xymordos

tomekk said:


> RAU-34832-B148 Balanced Armature Supertweeter
> 
> Knowles has advanced the state-of-the for in-ear acoustics with the release of its “supertweeter”.  This new balanced armature offers much improved output with the ability to reach an ultra-high frequency of 40kHz, making it ideal for in-ear monitors (IEMs) and true wireless stereo (TWS) earphones.
> 
> https://seltech-international.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/receiver-datasheet-rau-34832-b148-1.pdf



I wonder how it compares to the SWFK hmm...


----------



## Wgibson

Impedance looks very interesting, whole thing kinda looks like a 30095 shifted right a few kHz. Easy way to earn a hi-res sticker I guess.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

stegeoc said:


> Just a quick question on the philosophy of the MASMs.  Is the general idea that you are adding full range drivers to a module that already has a complete sound signature, in order to enhance or fill out the sound?
> 
> It seems a bit counter intuitive that this would improve detail as having different drivers playing the same frequencies, possiblly slightly out of phase, doesn't sound like it would.  Is the design very specific to overcome this, or does it generally not matter?
> Thanks!





swtnate said:


> Depends on your point of comparison and perspective.  If your comparing response and circuitry to that of loud speakers, while the fundamental elements are similar, the proximity to the source changes the game entirely.  The only REAL time electrical phase comes into play is charging up a parallel capacitor.  Outside of the occasional Zobel (which doesnt effect electrical phase) Ive never used a parallel capacitor.  Then there’s acoustic phase, which is part of tuning process, and polarity.  Driver selection is imperative to a good build.  Doubling up on drivers (ie turning a 5 driver set into a 10 driver) wouldnt necessarily effect soundstage, but you get more headroom and much less THD across different source impedances.


Answers 
1- any preassembled driver in MASM series like GQ, HE etc are all in phase crossed
2- a fullrange rab is generally added to fill up the uppermid range dip due to wonky crossover response
3- that fullrange is always slightly lower dB, so it doesn't effect the main driver in regions like bass and mids by significant degree 
4- zobel is added so integration is easier and drivers dont start reacting to each other impedance and turn it into a wonky sound
5- MASM was designed so its easier to make and people can learn things... its about learning impedance, decombing response with peak and dip adjustment, how tube resonances work, the change in resonance main peak....increasing length of RAB tube will lower the frequency(the hertz) and this way, you can adjust where RAB peak lands

actual problems tbh are
fullrange driver harmonic distortion and intermodulation distortion
and its not teaching you crossover and how to work with it


its just a quick iem


also
Finale series was made just as an experiment of damperless sound and it sounds good.......


----------



## Wgibson

@stegeoc try to keep the frequency response flat from 250hz to at least 1.5khz, then increase to a peak between 2-3khz, above thst is really personal preference. Too loud at 1khz will sound bad every time.


----------



## stegeoc

Wgibson said:


> @stegeoc try to keep the frequency response flat from 250hz to at least 1.5khz, then increase to a peak between 2-3khz, above thst is really personal preference. Too loud at 1khz will sound bad every time.


Thanks for the tip, I'd pretty much written this experiment off and may end up trying to salvage what I can from it instead of finishing it.  It sounds better than the first attempt but something is still not quite right.  Unfortunately since I took that measurement, I've developed a problem with my mic and everything is measuring a lack of bass now (including very bassy iems).  I may have damaged something when I pulled the coupler off and the end piece of the mic came off with it.  It went back on easily enough (and seems air tight) but I can;t get the measurements to show properly, so will hold off any more exploratory work until I fix it


----------



## Wgibson (Jun 1, 2022)

KZ ZS5 are on aliexpress now for $11-12 USD, good price for metal shells 

Edit: Not metal, but look nice and there is room in the nozzle for EST's so...


----------



## stegeoc

For those of you using 3D prints, what type of filament do you use and is there anything special about the printers you use?  

I was shocked to see that there are printers available very cheaply now, some cheaper than a bottle of resin!


----------



## Mr.HiAudio

stegeoc said:


> what type of filament


im using a PLA and PETG 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/earbuds-round-up.441400/page-3876#post-16616239


----------



## stegeoc

Mr.HiAudio said:


> im using a PLA and PETG
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/earbuds-round-up.441400/page-3876#post-16616239


PETG sounds interesting. Is ok for customs too?  I presume you use 1.75mm?  

I don't know anything about 3D printing, but seeing the prices are now so low has perked my interest


----------



## swtnate

stegeoc said:


> PETG sounds interesting. Is ok for customs too?  I presume you use 1.75mm?
> 
> I don't know anything about 3D printing, but seeing the prices are now so low has perked my interest


You may be able to get some good universals using filament, the industry standard in audiology is resin printing.  On an industrial scale you’re looking at either DLP or laser SLA.  Theres potential for some of these resins to be successfully used using LCD maskedSLA (MSLA).  However, there is no current standard established or certified to be fully compatible using an LCD SLA style printer.  All that said, there are people on this board that report successful prints using many different processes.


----------



## Aldo40

Liquid resin printing is the best choice and between 300-400 euros now we have high quality monochrome 4K printers.
Wire printers are not very recommended in iem-ciem the wire is much bigger and the finish coarser.
In liquid resin we work in 0.05 in much finer precision than the wire


----------



## stegeoc

Ahah!  I knew there was a catch somewhere!  Liquid resin printers seem about the cost/trouble I was thinking originally and probably not going to happen for me. 

I am very tempted to give PETG a try though, given the relatively low cost.  After a bit of sanding and lack 3 the results may well be better than my poor attempts using the traditional methods.  It also opens up a lot more options finish wise...

I appreciate that resin printers probably give you that perfect look right out the printer, but a bit of sanding post-print doesn't sound like the end of the world.  Has anyone tried this with customs?


----------



## swtnate

stegeoc said:


> Ahah!  I knew there was a catch somewhere!  Liquid resin printers seem about the cost/trouble I was thinking originally and probably not going to happen for me.
> 
> I am very tempted to give PETG a try though, given the relatively low cost.  After a bit of sanding and lack 3 the results may well be better than my poor attempts using the traditional methods.  It also opens up a lot more options finish wise...
> 
> I appreciate that resin printers probably give you that perfect look right out the printer, but a bit of sanding post-print doesn't sound like the end of the world.  Has anyone tried this with customs?


Its not just a bit of sanding.  Its a considerable amount.  And then you have to contend with PET compatibility with UV lacquers/ shellacs.  Plus, you don’t know how the filament material will interact with your ear lining.  additionally, without a high enough definition in the print, you will not get the tube channels to print and the sound bores will not be as consistent.  Im not saying it cant be done.  But, you’ll be working in your own void.  If filament printing was a viable option, there would be filaments offered by the big names in our industry. Detax, Pro3dure, Dreve, egger, etc all solely offer liquid resins.


----------



## Aldo40 (May 18, 2022)

@stegeoc
The resin printer does not exclude sanding of course it is always necessary to sand the hull to the dremel before putting the lake3.
It’s not about saving money. It’s just that it’s much more accurate and you can make other precision part, example you broke a button a gear and other part you specify printed identically without sanding. Think of e I could do with this printer outside the 
IEM 
If you pass one or two tubes in the nozzle, hulls can be made with a wire.
I have a friend who has a wired one thought I already tried, I didn’t say it was impossible, just when you compare a liquid resin shell and a wired one, the choice and quickly, Now the choice of the resin printer for some of us is that we release a lot of shell.
If you are not professional and you will reserve the wired printer for larger, coarser objects from time to time that do not require too much precision and detail, you can make this choice.


----------



## stegeoc

I see, I'll scrap that idea then.  I've seen a 2k resin printer for a reasonable price, is that high enough resolution? 

But what about the resin you use in it?  Does that have to be some expensive medical resin or is the standard stuff OK once lacked?  I guess it would be pretty hard to get but I assume the same rules apply as to the traditional methods?


----------



## swtnate

stegeoc said:


> I see, I'll scrap that idea then.  I've seen a 2k resin printer for a reasonable price, is that high enough resolution?
> 
> But what about the resin you use in it?  Does that have to be some expensive medical resin or is the standard stuff OK once lacked?  I guess it would be pretty hard to get but I assume the same rules apply as to the traditional methods?


I would look at the elegoo Mars 3 4k MSLA printer.  On the low side, the anycubic Photon Mono 4k would be doable as well.  I didnt enjoy one minute of my ownership of the anycubic Photon S.  The Z axis was always funky, and I had COUNTLESS print failures.  Since getting the elegoo Saturn, Ive had zero print failures.  I also ise the Lychee slicer on a mac.  That slicer program is amazing.  Way better than any other Ive ever used.  the auto orientation and auto support detection is first class.


----------



## Aldo40 (May 19, 2022)

stegeoc said:


> I see, I'll scrap that idea then.  I've seen a 2k resin printer for a reasonable price, is that high enough resolution?
> 
> But what about the resin you use in it?  Does that have to be some expensive medical resin or is the standard stuff OK once lacked?  I guess it would be pretty hard to get but I assume the same rules apply as to the traditional methods?


I was doing with the 2K elegoo before and it was accurate enough, it is a RGB dale and not monochrome as on the PRO 2 or 4K, the advantage of monochrom screens and that it is faster and manages much better clear resins that are more difficult to print.

I have 3 resin printers including an ASIGA freeform pro 2, and the one I use 95% is the Mars 3 lol
I also use  Lychee slicer and the chitubox PRO version which is also nice .
you can use resins like monocure3D, resione etc... but it is imperative to cover with lake3/ detax shellac..... for protection.


----------



## stegeoc

Thanks all, I've put a Mars 3 on my wishlist.  Need to think up a couple more things that I urgently need to print to justify it though, and learn meshmixer in the meantime.  

My current experiments have been hampered by not being able to get consistent fr measurements (especially in the bass).  I'm sure I'll get there in the end but I think the problem is that the tubes (various bits of aquarium tubing) are not reflecting the sound properly and may be too soft.  Will keep experimenting in my free time


----------



## Aldo40

I don’t think it’s because of the soft of the tubes, but it’s because of the leakage.


----------



## discus123

My 2nd build hybrid IEM,  Low : TUSQ 10 mm dynamic driver / Low Mid : sonion 37ap015 / Mid High : sonion 2389 / High : knowles 31736










I'm trying to shift the V at 4.5K a bit to the right, about 5K.  I've crossed with different values of cap. and damper but failed.  The most painful is I've glued the tube to the shell.  Are there any way that I've no need to break the shell for adjusting the tube length that I can move the V to 5K ?





I've planned to connect a tube to the shell body for controlling the air leaking from the dynamic driver.  This is my 1st attempt for doing it and I'm not sure if it is workable or not.






At the back of the shell body I'll put different value of damper for controlling the air leaking from the dynamic driver.


----------



## stegeoc

Aldo40 said:


> I don’t think it’s because of the soft of the tubes, but it’s because of the leakage.


It may well be, but I've been focused on that and seem to be getting a seal.  I use a ton of blue tack wherever possible and things really do seem sealed to the point that I can't hear the sweeps.   It seems the microscopic differences in angle or depth make huge differences below 100hz.  When there's no subbass at all it'll be a leak, but when I get some subbass it is still inconsistent.  

Any tips for getting a good seal without resorting to glue? Maybe I should try some different blue tack?  The stuff I have is really sticky and a pain to clean up anyway


----------



## mattmatt

discus123 said:


> My 2nd build hybrid IEM,  Low : TUSQ 10 mm dynamic driver / Low Mid : sonion 37ap015 / Mid High : sonion 2389 / High : knowles 31736
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's workable. I've done this once. Is your shell printed or poured? Looking good my, man!


----------



## Aldo40

stegeoc said:


> .
> Any tips for getting a good seal without resorting to glue? Maybe I should try some different blue tack?  The stuff I have is really sticky and a pain to clean up anyway



You should see your curves and the dynamic driver used.


----------



## Aldo40 (May 23, 2022)

.


----------



## mattmatt

Any ideas with matte coating? Do you guys think they normal lacquer with additives?


----------



## Aldo40

I’m also interested to know, or it’s just the lake3 that’s sanded


----------



## piotrus-g

mattmatt said:


> Any ideas with matte coating? Do you guys think they normal lacquer with additives?


There's a matte lacquer from Dreve available


----------



## mattmatt

piotrus-g said:


> There's a matte lacquer from Dreve available


Oh, Haven't seen them anywhere. Are they available from warnertech? I don't see them there too.


----------



## piotrus-g

mattmatt said:


> Oh, Haven't seen them anywhere. Are they available from warnertech? I don't see them there too.


https://otoplastikshop.dreve.de/otoplastiken/fotoplastr-lacquer-m-4215.html


----------



## Aldo40

Thank you Piotr for the information, I will ask my French supplier.


----------



## Inspector Gadget (May 25, 2022)

It is true that resin printers are for the moment higher resolution, but with a good printer (and these are getting cheaper now too) you can print with reasonable quality and now with heated chambers and higher extruder temps, with materials like PEKK, zero issues with allergy, safe for medical implants even. also, you can of course finish it, coat and take a cast, then make in resin, metal ... whatever you like.

Here is a PEEK filament

https://www.matterhackers.com/store/l/3dxtech-thermax-peek-05kg-175mm/sk/MQKH3YHL

not cheap, but it doesnt take a lot to make a set of IEMs. More options in PEKK, which is a new polymer in the same family https://www.matterhackers.com/s/store?q=pekk

Obviously for us, unless coating thickly, you'd want to avoid the ones with carbon fibre. fabtastic for engineering work, but probably not the most suitable for in your ear


----------



## Inspector Gadget

There may be more sanding, but the FDM printers and process itself is a whole lot less painful and messy than resin printing.


----------



## mattmatt

piotrus-g said:


> https://otoplastikshop.dreve.de/otoplastiken/fotoplastr-lacquer-m-4215.html


Thank you so much! This is highly appreciated.


----------



## Aldo40

Inspector Gadget said:


> There may be more sanding, but the FDM printers and process itself is a whole lot less painful and messy than resin printing.


Each printer technology has its quality and defects


----------



## Inspector Gadget (May 25, 2022)

Absolutely. I mean, cheap hobbyist FDM printers with open frames and PLA? yeah probably not ... lol, but recently you can spend a few grand and get a good print volume and quality/variety of materials. Then, next gen printers coming out like the Vision Miner IDEX 22 (still costs 10K, but it is cheap at 10K IMO), are using down to 200 micron nozzles and just over 100micron layer height, so with the right model orientation and some finishing thats totally acceptable IMO. The res of SLA is definitely higher, I mean theyre up to 8K resolution on the LCD type resin printers now, but what a PITA and soooooooo slooooooooow ... lol.


----------



## mattmatt

Inspector Gadget said:


> Absolutely. I mean, cheap hobbyist FDM printers with open frames and PLA? yeah probably not ... lol, but recently you can spend a few grand and get a good print volume and quality/variety of materials. Then, next gen printers coming out like the Vision Miner IDEX 22 (still costs 10K, but it is cheap at 10K IMO), are using down to 200 micron nozzles and just over 100micron layer height, so with the right model orientation and some finishing thats totally acceptable IMO. The res of SLA is definitely higher, I mean theyre up to 8K resolution on the LCD type resin printers now, but what a PITA and soooooooo slooooooooow ... lol.


I think most SLA nowadays would beat most FDMs both in speed and resolution especially with monochrome screens and more powerful uv source. 

Note that no matter how many you put in your build plate in an mSLA printer, print times won't change and would only depend on the highest point of your printed parts.


----------



## Inspector Gadget (May 25, 2022)

mattmatt said:


> I think most SLA nowadays would beat most FDMs both in speed and resolution especially with monochrome screens and more powerful uv source.
> 
> Note that no matter how many you put in your build plate in an mSLA printer, print times won't change and would only depend on the highest point of your printed parts.


Not true.

larger surface area takes more force and thus more time each layer to release vs a smaller print (without failing obviously)


----------



## Inspector Gadget (May 25, 2022)

This explains better than I can, but its just a logical extension. It wont be as perceptible with a very small printer, but it will be nonetheless still true and each layer taking longer = the print taking longer. 
Phrozen Sonic Mega 8K​


----------



## Inspector Gadget

also, if you arent familiar with Makers Muse (I suspect you are, but who knows and for others) dont misjudge him, he's been professionally involved with 3d printing since his mid teens.


----------



## mattmatt

Inspector Gadget said:


> Not true.
> 
> larger surface area takes more force and thus more time each layer to release vs a smaller print (without failing obviously)


And that speed would change with lift speeds I think but would risk the chance of a failed print. also based on my experience with both msla and fdms, if you print a ton with xy and not much z, msla would beat fdms both in speed and resolution.


----------



## Aldo40 (May 26, 2022)

It takes me about three hours to print IEM.
I throw the impressions the evening before going to bed, I get this the next day   
Just get organized, no need to stand in front of the printer for 3h  
And if we ever print during the day, we have 3 hours to do anything else
So time is not a problem, it’s just that we take the type of printer according to our needs.
For my part, the parts I print do not allow me to do it with a wired printer.
Some 3D tube is 1mm diameter and they’re close to each other by a few tenths of a millimeter.
Exemple on my Mars3


----------



## Inspector Gadget (May 26, 2022)

mattmatt said:


> And that speed would change with lift speeds I think, but would risk the chance of a failed print.


It does indeed, it gets slower, to account for both the extra torque required of the steppers and to avoid failing/separating. Some people have also done some interesting stuff with custom g-code to tilt/angle the bed on pull/separation to help with the surface tension, but its still required to be a longer process with larger cross-sectional area. I would expect that to be 100% correlated and unavoidable physical limit. It's just physics that all of them are starting to bump up against. I mean FDM ... its a tiny 200 micron plastic sausage, that we are trying to be precise with *** ... ha!! far from ideal, but my point is its a far cry fro what it used to be, since the stratasys patents all started to expire ...



> also based on my experience with both msla and fdms, if you print a ton with xy and not much z, msla would beat fdms both in speed and resolution.



That makes sense. FDM printing at the moment is limited to about 60mm/s, or less. you can go faster of course, but most useful materials limit you to that or less

Hey i'm not a fanboi of any of them, whatever it takes to get the job done. I absolutely agree, that currently at least if acrylic is suited to your application, SLA without a doubt produces a higher resolution print. MSLA is just not workable in my space and most resins too weak for my usual purposes (not IEMs) and as mentioned I find the process tedious, wasteful and so messy, but we'll see, i'll probably end up with a small one of my own soon enough. I have only used other people's, so I cant claim *much* experience there.

I will use my new FDM (qidi X-CF PRO) primarily more for enclosures, in combination with PCBs, printing moulds for vacuum moulding (chopped carbon) and CNC/laser cutting (I have neither at this point). I'm looking to get myself a small furnace for casting metals (from moulds printed directly on the FDM, when possible) and build an EDM cutter to round out the workshop (similar results to laser cutting, but able to cut thick material very cleanly including titanium, using your own fabricated cutting 'ends' for the electrode. CoVID has meant an explosion in Makers/ 'Micro-factories' and I just love making stuff .

As you can see, I have other things I need to print, rather than standing around ...

the tubes, sure. I expect there is a work-around with dissolvable supports/IDEX. leave me with it 

Also, i'll just leave you with this ... MSLA cannot and will probably never achieve full colour printing.


----------



## Inspector Gadget

Electrical Discharge Machining 

https://hackaday.com/2021/04/30/homemade-edm-machine-moves-from-prototype-to-production/


----------



## Inspector Gadget

Beautiful wrk btw @Aldo40


----------



## Aldo40 (May 26, 2022)

Inspector Gadget said:


> et comme mentionné, je trouve le processus fastidieux, inutile et tellement salissant, mais nous verrons


ce n'est pas inutile, c'est nécessaire



Inspector Gadget said:


> Aussi, je vais juste vous laisser avec ceci ... MSLA ne peut pas et ne réalisera probablement jamais l'impression en couleur.



vous semblez préférer la méthode filaire car les imprimantes à résine sont salissantes pour vous.

Si cette méthode ne vous convient pas, , le meilleur choix pour vous sera les imprimantes filaires.

Et oui les imprimantes résine ne feront pas du multicouleur comme sur votre vidéo, et les imprimantes filaires ne seront pas aussi précises que les imprimantes résine, chacune a sa qualité et ses inconvénients

Aldo


----------



## Inspector Gadget (May 26, 2022)

No, I prefer FDM because it is more suitable, more flexible, for ALL use cases and more specifically, stronger and able to print with materials other than what are for the most part fairly brittle resins that are not UV stable, for obvious reasons, while resin is more suitable for fine detail in acrylic and thats about all. If it was better at everything I would have to just put up with the mess.

Thats cool, because thats what you are using it for  IEMs. If I was buying a printer just for IEMs right now I would buy MLSA.


----------



## Aldo40 (May 27, 2022)

I use resins mainly for IEM but I also make solid parts there are resins that are made for this, there are flexible, standard or very solid resin type ABS.

For the rest, if I want to do something else that doesn’t need this precision we have a wired impression too but I don’t use it much .

You know me I don’t care who’s better or not, I own both .   
I use the one I want according to my needs

Since you like to give faults to SLA printers I’ll even give you another one, SLA printers are limited on the plate surface because it’s rather made to create small parts, obviously if you want to make a crossbow,  We mustn’t be stupid,  we will obviously use a wired lol


----------



## mattmatt

Thought we were talking about the best printer suitable for making in-ears. Lol. 

If we are gonna talk about best general purpose printer, I think we will be way too off topic here.


----------



## Aldo40 (May 28, 2022)

mattmatt said:


> Thought we were talking about the best printer suitable for making in-ears. Lol.


I thought the same thing at first


----------



## amemisome (May 30, 2022)

Spoiler: misremebered driver setup, ignore post



Not sure if this is the right place to put this, but I'll post it here since I guess it's DIY related?
Anyway, I've opened up an old KZ AS06 to try and harvest the drivers since I never use it and it should have some good drivers. But when I opened it up surprisingly there's 3 different types of driver inside and not two. Maybe the AS06 uses the same drivers as the AS10, but with heavy resistors on the tweeters or perhaps I'm wrong and there's actually only two types of driver here? If anyone here already knows the answer to what's going on, I'd love to know.
Will try to test all the drivers once I get them out, they're really stuck in the 3d printed sound guide with hot glue and I think I may have to destroy the whole shell to get them out, which will take some time.

--- Update
The drivers are indeed named KZ A22955, 29689, and A30095. Not sure what the A stands for but I do know this means that there's not just 3 drivers in the AS06. Oh also the (dual?) 22955 is vented.

--- Update 2
All the individual drivers work with the stock crossover, the A30095 isn't even blocked out through the electronic crossover and the soundguide wasn't blocked off either.


----------



## swtnate

mattmatt said:


> Any ideas with matte coating? Do you guys think they normal lacquer with additives?


I will mail you a bottle.  I have a TON left over. 😂😂


----------



## swtnate

amemisome said:


> Not sure if this is the right place to put this, but I'll post it here since I guess it's DIY related?
> Anyway, I've opened up an old KZ AS06 to try and harvest the drivers since I never use it and it should have some good drivers. But when I opened it up surprisingly there's 3 different types of driver inside and not two. Maybe the AS06 uses the same drivers as the AS10, but with heavy resistors on the tweeters or perhaps I'm wrong and there's actually only two types of driver here? If anyone here already knows the answer to what's going on, I'd love to know.
> Will try to test all the drivers once I get them out, they're really stuck in the 3d printed sound guide with hot glue and I think I may have to destroy the whole shell to get them out, which will take some time.
> 
> ...


There was a rumor going around on reddit that in the hybrid models featuring a DD and BA(s), that the BAs were fake. 😂😂 NOW the casing of KZ, CCA, TRN, etc. are all black with gold spouts.  China must‘ve taken that L from Knowles in the US courts and double down.


----------



## swtnate

preference question:

are you using the Orange wire circuit OR the brown wire circuit depicted in the image below…


----------



## wagyuA5

amemisome said:


> Not sure if this is the right place to put this, but I'll post it here since I guess it's DIY related?
> Anyway, I've opened up an old KZ AS06 to try and harvest the drivers since I never use it and it should have some good drivers. But when I opened it up surprisingly there's 3 different types of driver inside and not two. Maybe the AS06 uses the same drivers as the AS10, but with heavy resistors on the tweeters or perhaps I'm wrong and there's actually only two types of driver here? If anyone here already knows the answer to what's going on, I'd love to know.
> Will try to test all the drivers once I get them out, they're really stuck in the 3d printed sound guide with hot glue and I think I may have to destroy the whole shell to get them out, which will take some time.
> 
> ...


Does KZ make ba drivers or do they just rebrand them?


----------



## amemisome

wagyuA5 said:


> Does KZ make ba drivers or do they just rebrand them?


I have heard people say that they're rebranded Bellsing drivers and that there were instances of people finding Bellsing branded BA drivers in their KZ IEMs. Though I have no personal experience with that nor any source for those claims.


----------



## Aldo40 (May 29, 2022)

Yes it is very often belsing on the KZ and many others.
There are other BA marks that copy the knowles up to the reference number but the response curves are not the same.
For copies yes it exists , some IEM chifi cost less than a single real driver Knowles or sonion.
Just look at the 22955 bass and 29689  of the KZ in the photo above, it doesn’t even have the same housing as the real from Knowles


----------



## swtnate

Aldo40 said:


> Yes it is very often belsing on the KZ and many others.
> There are other BA marks that copy the knowles up to the reference number but the response curves are not the same.
> For copies yes it exists , some IEM chifi cost less than a single real driver Knowles or sonion.
> Just look at the 22955 bass of the KZ in the photo above, it doesn’t even have the same housing as the real CI-22955 from Knowles


And, I believe thats a tantulum capacitor there too.,. GROSS.


----------



## tomekk

a weekend five-minute modification to brighten and improve the sound for iems twice as much (by removing components )


----------



## swtnate

tomekk said:


> a weekend five-minute modification to brighten and improve the sound for iems twice as much (by removing components )


Is that dB correct? 69(nice).71?  That seems quite low unless its a non-calculated test….


----------



## amemisome

amemisome said:


> Not sure if this is the right place to put this, but I'll post it here since I guess it's DIY related?
> Anyway, I've opened up an old KZ AS06 to try and harvest the drivers since I never use it and it should have some good drivers. But when I opened it up surprisingly there's 3 different types of driver inside and not two. Maybe the AS06 uses the same drivers as the AS10, but with heavy resistors on the tweeters or perhaps I'm wrong and there's actually only two types of driver here? If anyone here already knows the answer to what's going on, I'd love to know.
> Will try to test all the drivers once I get them out, they're really stuck in the 3d printed sound guide with hot glue and I think I may have to destroy the whole shell to get them out, which will take some time.
> 
> ...


Another update. I see I misremembered the driver setup of the AS06, apparently it wasn't 2x22955 and 1x29689 but instead 1x22955, 1x29689 and 1x30095. These drivers are all correctly listed on the item pages and somehow I mixed it up. Don't know why I hadn't looked it up before posting, to make sure I didn't misremember the driver setup.


----------



## Aldo40

I post the real ones to see the difference.


----------



## AD1747

Hi guys, I am wondering if anyone has tried the Sony Just Ear configuration. Hybrid with 1 DD + 1 BA but no crossover circuit, tuned by some sort of foam fitted in the tubes?


----------



## swtnate

AD1747 said:


> Hi guys, I am wondering if anyone has tried the Sony Just Ear configuration. Hybrid with 1 DD + 1 BA but no crossover circuit, tuned by some sort of foam fitted in the tubes?


Its in the same vein as the Samsung version and pretty similar to the UE Fits comcept.  Only the Fits will custom cure to your ear up the first bend.  However, the bass is a bit thin and bluetooth interference is enough to give you a stroke.  Plus, theres not transparency mode so you cant hear yourself speak when a person walks up or you answer a call.


----------



## slakoth453

swtnate said:


> There was a rumor going around on reddit that in the hybrid models featuring a DD and BA(s), that the BAs were fake. 😂😂 NOW the casing of KZ, CCA, TRN, etc. are all black with gold spouts.  China must‘ve taken that L from Knowles in the US courts and double down.


They aren't even fake just used in a way that they're barely or not at all audible. In the dq6 the two 6mm dynamics were straight up wired out of phase.


----------



## slakoth453

amemisome said:


> Spoiler: misremebered driver setup, ignore post
> 
> 
> 
> ...


22955 is a single driver so it's only 3ba.


----------



## swtnate

slakoth453 said:


> They aren't even fake just used in a way that they're barely or not at all audible. In the dq6 the two 6mm dynamics were straight up wired out of phase.


I dont even think the R&D.  It seems like they just hijack the intellectual property of everyone else. 🤣🤣 I mean the highway robbery the committed against knowles was truely historic.  Its the #1 reason I have never owned any earphones with Bellsing drivers or a set of KZ’s, CCA, TRN, etc.  they flood this stuff on the market so quickly its unreal…. < dont look while I side eye waiting for those bellsing RAU’s )


----------



## amemisome

slakoth453 said:


> 22955 is a single driver so it's only 3ba.


Yeah I somehow confused their driver setup with some other 3BA IEMs that have 2x 22955 and 1x 29689 like TSMR 3 or Voyager 3, as I hadn't looked at the specs for a few years. Which is also why I thought the 22955 they used here was maybe a dual driver like CJ-30029-000, even though they look completely different. Sorry for the mixup.


----------



## swtnate

Quick question….

is the new RAU super tweeter from Knowles comparable to the Sonion E series single driver super tweeter?

also, when they claim “super tweeter” and you look at the FR and it still dives at 10k 🧐


----------



## Shadowelite (May 31, 2022)

Hi
New to the ciem
I really fancy making my own iem but i want to experiment with multi dd drivers
Lets say a 8mm and 10mm ect
Then may add a ba
I Just want to go crazy 😂
Obv the wiring side to it, i will have to read up as theres caps and resistors ? No idea lol
For now my problem is finding shells
I dont have a 3d printer but i know someone who has. I mean if i can buy one thats cheap enough i would so then i can really go crazy 😂
But for now were can i get a shell or maybe a cad for a shell that will fit two dd drivers?
Is there any tutorials i can sit down and read?
Thanks


----------



## wagyuA5

Shadowelite said:


> Hi
> New to the ciem
> I really fancy making my own iem but i want to experiment with multi dd drivers
> Lets say a 8mm and 10mm ect
> ...


Can't offer too much help but for the wiring side, the cap and resistors are for driver crossovers. As for sourcing the pcb and soldering these tiny components, I have no idea


----------



## AD1747

swtnate said:


> Its in the same vein as the Samsung version and pretty similar to the UE Fits comcept.  Only the Fits will custom cure to your ear up the first bend.  However, the bass is a bit thin and bluetooth interference is enough to give you a stroke.  Plus, theres not transparency mode so you cant hear yourself speak when a person walks up or you answer a call.


I'm sorry but which Samsung model we are talking about? I didn't realise Samsung offered something similar to the Sony Just ear. And the UE Fits use 10mm dynamic drivers only so they are not hybrid AFAIK. Just want to make sure we are on the same page here.

I'm thinking about building my first CIEM, 1DD+1BA hybrid, no crossover, pure acoustic tuning. Already got my ear impressions done, both open mouth and relaxed mouth. Though I need to get one of those 711 couplers.

The Sony Just ear project is helmed by chief engineer Tomohiro Matsuo, one of the top sound/headphone engineers in Japan (if not the world). So I don't expect to get anywhere close to what they've achieved. Matsuo-san was not a big fan of 3D printing tech but I do have access to 3D printers myself so I can fiddle with internal acoustic structures, just for the fun of it. I know what caps, resistors and dampers do but still a bit of a layman in tuning. It will be appreciated if someone can point me to a place where I can learn some more acoustic tuning techniques especially for IEMs.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

slakoth453 said:


> 22955 is a single driver so it's only 3ba.


AS06 is 6 BA
3BA per side

the normal KZ way of writing things


----------



## swtnate

AD1747 said:


> I'm sorry but which Samsung model we are talking about? I didn't realise Samsung offered something similar to the Sony Just ear. And the UE Fits use 10mm dynamic drivers only so they are not hybrid AFAIK. Just want to make sure we are on the same page here.
> 
> I'm thinking about building my first CIEM, 1DD+1BA hybrid, no crossover, pure acoustic tuning. Already got my ear impressions done, both open mouth and relaxed mouth. Though I need to get one of those 711 couplers.
> 
> The Sony Just ear project is helmed by chief engineer Tomohiro Matsuo, one of the top sound/headphone engineers in Japan (if not the world). So I don't expect to get anywhere close to what they've achieved. Matsuo-san was not a big fan of 3D printing tech but I do have access to 3D printers myself so I can fiddle with internal acoustic structures, just for the fun of it. I know what caps, resistors and dampers do but still a bit of a layman in tuning. It will be appreciated if someone can point me to a place where I can learn some more acoustic tuning techniques especially for IEMs.


Yeah…. My bad.  I was reading poorly worded pros and cons from varies mainstream big name producers.  Samsung, Sony, UE, and the like, all suffer from horrible bluetooth interference.  One thing that always impressed about my defunct (RIP) AirPods was that they NEVER suffered from frop outs or interference.


----------



## swtnate (Jun 1, 2022)

swtnate said:


> Yeah…. My bad.  I was reading poorly worded pros and cons from varies mainstream big name producers.  Samsung, Sony, UE, and the like, all suffer from horrible bluetooth interference.  One thing that always impressed about my defunct (RIP) AirPods was that they NEVER suffered from frop outs or interfere





AD1747 said:


> I'm sorry but which Samsung model we are talking about? I didn't realise Samsung offered something similar to the Sony Just ear. And the UE Fits use 10mm dynamic drivers only so they are not hybrid AFAIK. Just want to make sure we are on the same page here.
> 
> I'm thinking about building my first CIEM, 1DD+1BA hybrid, no crossover, pure acoustic tuning. Already got my ear impressions done, both open mouth and relaxed mouth. Though I need to get one of those 711 couplers.
> 
> The Sony Just ear project is helmed by chief engineer Tomohiro Matsuo, one of the top sound/headphone engineers in Japan (if not the world). So I don't expect to get anywhere close to what they've achieved. Matsuo-san was not a big fan of 3D printing tech but I do have access to 3D printers myself so I can fiddle with internal acoustic structures, just for the fun of it. I know what caps, resistors and dampers do but still a bit of a layman in tuning. It will be appreciated if someone can point me to a place where I can learn some more acoustic tuning techniques especially for IEMs.


Hey, up until Jerry Harvey put an FK and an ED into a custom hearing aid shell for the van halen drummer….  My point is, you dont have to be a genious audio technician or mathematician to create fantastic soundstages.  You will ALWAYS need the math and ALWAYS need repetitive  testing but the end product gets put into an ear.  And THAT person (whether its you or someone else listenin go to your new audio Frankenstein 😂, has to love it.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

swtnate said:


> Hey, up until Jerry Harvey put an FK and an ED into a custom hearing aid shell for the van halen drummer….  My point is, you dont have to be a genious audio technician or mathematician to create fantastic soundstages.  You will ALWAYS need the math and ALWAYS need repetitive  testing but the end product gets put into an ear.  And THAT person (whether its you or someone else listenin go to your new audio Frankenstein 😂, has to love it.


but JH iem dont really sound that good to begin with
and maths is important if you want to make a product which is really worth it
repetitive testing can be avoided if you take a reference iem, eq it till you like it, get the graph, and then make your own iem to the graph. but remember. that's your pinnae gain and your HRTF and may not match with other, that's why let a lot of people give you eq of a reference iem, you average and compensate overshoot
(you get harman)

one more way of looking at things


my suggestion is, start with tuning harman target to your liking, doesn't matter what driver you use...... tuning is far more important tbh


----------



## arxyu

Hello guys,

I'm new to this thread (and new to head-fi as well). I had been making IEMs in 2016-2018 but had stopped since. But recently one of my friend got into this hobby and I have been helping him a lot. Recently we started to have the idea of 3D printing custom shells since hand trimming ear impressions and pouring them is really time consuming. Our failure rate was also kind of high since I actually didn't make a lot of custom ones before so I don't have experience to share with him.

We found a local IEM retailer that offer ear impression scanning service, and I have tried to trim and smooth out impressions 3D models that I found online with meshmixer and Fusion 360 with pretty good result (see attached images) (Thanks to the guide at #13048!). We don't have a SLA or MSLA 3D printer so we have also found a company that is willing to print the shells for a reasonable price, I have worked with them to print universal shells with good results. 

But before actually spending our money on impressions taking, scanning and printing, I want to ask you guys if there is any tips or suggestions on smoothing out the shells. I know the with traditional hand pouring method, you apply wax or special resin to the trimmed impression and thus make it slightly bigger in size compared to the OG one. Do I also have to increase the size of the scanned and trimmed impression by 0.1-0.3mm? Or should I even reduce the size a little since we'll apply egger resin (L/P Lack or something I forgot) on it afterward? Or should I simply leave it at the original size?

Also, thank you guys for posting all your works here, I have learned a lot.


----------



## swtnate

arxyu said:


> Hello guys,
> 
> I'm new to this thread (and new to head-fi as well). I had been making IEMs in 2016-2018 but had stopped since. But recently one of my friend got into this hobby and I have been helping him a lot. Recently we started to have the idea of 3D printing custom shells since hand trimming ear impressions and pouring them is really time consuming. Our failure rate was also kind of high since I actually didn't make a lot of custom ones before so I don't have experience to share with him.
> 
> ...


you will enlarge the scanned impression.  Industry standards vary.  Deep ear shells (past the second bend) for profound hearing loss is different than filtering out for isolation (which is only to the first bend).  Another variant is that everyones canals are different.  Some have more flex and others are more rigid.  Which is why you can make a shell for one and it works awesome.  then do the same for another and its too tight or too loose.  Here's some light reading. lol I normally expand shells .5-.75mm


----------



## swtnate

What 3d scanner are you guys using to get your 3D print files?


----------



## arxyu

swtnate said:


> you will enlarge the scanned impression.  Industry standards vary.  Deep ear shells (past the second bend) for profound hearing loss is different than filtering out for isolation (which is only to the first bend).  Another variant is that everyones canals are different.  Some have more flex and others are more rigid.  Which is why you can make a shell for one and it works awesome.  then do the same for another and its too tight or too loose.  Here's some light reading. lol I normally expand shells .5-.75mm


Thanks for your input! I guess we'll start with 0.5mm and apply thicker egger lp/h lack if it's not enough.



swtnate said:


> What 3d scanner are you guys using to get your 3D print files?


We don't actually own one but the IEM retailer that provides the scanning service use smart optics duo scan. We wanted to set up a openscan mini but it's still somewhat expensive for 2 college students and it's been really hard to get a raspberry pi recently.


----------



## tomekk

These drivers from KZ are poor sound quality. While CI is still reasonably good, ED and WBFK are weak.


----------



## swtnate

tomekk said:


> These drivers from KZ are poor sound quality. While CI is still reasonably good, ED and WBFK are weak.


Where did you source them from?  A KZ IEM or are they Bellsing drivers?


----------



## swtnate

mattmatt said:


> I just took the splurge with the detax! I'm counting on swtnate's words, which I trust, to love this!


Wellllll, I need some answers and some pictures…. 😂😂😂


----------



## tomekk

swtnate said:


> Where did you source them from?  A KZ IEM or are they Bellsing drivers?


They are marked "KZ" brand. For example ED/WBFK:  
Knowles is 100%/100% sound quality
Bellsing is  70%/50%
KZ is 50%/30%


----------



## wagyuA5

Hey guys,

How would you guys repair a thin crack on a acrylic or resin shell?


----------



## swtnate

wagyuA5 said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> How would you guys repair a thin crack on a acrylic or resin shell?


very much depends... if it's white or clear it would be different than if it were say black or dark grey....


----------



## wagyuA5

swtnate said:


> very much depends... if it's white or clear it would be different than if it were say black or dark grey....


Interesting. The methods I have seen so far are nail polish, acrylic paint and lacquer. How does color factor in?


----------



## Aldo40

Attention nail polish is semi-permanent and not permanant
I use bondic UV Pen for this and to stick the tubes to the drivers but there are other alternatives of course


----------



## wagyuA5

Aldo40 said:


> Attention nail polish is semi-permanent and not permanant
> I use bondic UV Pen for this and to stick the tubes to the drivers but there are other alternatives of course


Thanks for the tip. The bondic pen looks handy


----------



## stegeoc

AD1747 said:


> I'm sorry but which Samsung model we are talking about? I didn't realise Samsung offered something similar to the Sony Just ear. And the UE Fits use 10mm dynamic drivers only so they are not hybrid AFAIK. Just want to make sure we are on the same page here.
> 
> I'm thinking about building my first CIEM, 1DD+1BA hybrid, no crossover, pure acoustic tuning. Already got my ear impressions done, both open mouth and relaxed mouth. Though I need to get one of those 711 couplers.
> 
> The Sony Just ear project is helmed by chief engineer Tomohiro Matsuo, one of the top sound/headphone engineers in Japan (if not the world). So I don't expect to get anywhere close to what they've achieved. Matsuo-san was not a big fan of 3D printing tech but I do have access to 3D printers myself so I can fiddle with internal acoustic structures, just for the fun of it. I know what caps, resistors and dampers do but still a bit of a layman in tuning. It will be appreciated if someone can point me to a place where I can learn some more acoustic tuning techniques especially for IEMs.


Did you get any further with your hybrid plans?  I've not used a DD before but picked up a couple and am curious to see what can be done.

The drivers I have don't have a spout but do have a metal casing and maybe a 3mm hole in the middle, so I'm thinking of gluing a 3mm ID tube on them, step it down to 2mm and treat them like BAs (no 3D printer for anything fancy in the shell).  Presumably a small hole in the shell is needed for venting but other than that are there any major differences in how you treat a DD to a BA?


----------



## ValSuki

Heya head fi friends!
I have a single DD iem thats fully 3d printable in resin and FDM! I would absolutely love some feedback to those curious about this, as it hosts only 10mm drivers currently. You are able to edit the design so whatever you desire as well. Just would love some feedback!
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:5411333


----------



## stegeoc

That looks interesting, but not able to print anything and try.  It seems that 3d printing like this is perfectly suited for dd designs.  I guess that the lack of examples on here of people using DDs in colloid based shells should probably be a warning.. 

Keeping an eye out for a Mars 3 but currently no stock anywhere near me


----------



## swtnate

stegeoc said:


> That looks interesting, but not able to print anything and try.  It seems that 3d printing like this is perfectly suited for dd designs.  I guess that the lack of examples on here of people using DDs in colloid based shells should probably be a warning..
> 
> Keeping an eye out for a Mars 3 but currently no stock anywhere near me


The Saturn is AWESOME.  Same as the Mars but a MUCH larger build plate for producing batch amount of parts.


----------



## mattmatt

Hey guys, just wondering if you guys have an idea what driver can be a replacement for UE's TrueTone drivers. It seems like a WBFK without a spout but a top firing one similar to CI-32139 and FED-26849 from Knowles. I'm rebuilding a UE for my friend because he is complaining about an imbalance with turns out is caused by a failed driver.


----------



## tomekk

top firing WBFK-33649, difficult to buy during the Chinese lockdown and in single quantities


----------



## mattmatt

tomekk said:


> top firing WBFK-33649, difficult to buy during the Chinese lockdown and in single quantities


Doesn't the 33649 have a spout? Is there a specific model? Can you link me to one?


----------



## tomekk

mattmatt said:


> Doesn't the 33649 have a spout? Is there a specific model? Can you link me to one?


Unfortunately there is no documentation on google indexed, you would have to ask the knowles for the data sheet. For sure 33649 is without spout and the construction of this wbfk is identical to the ue18+

It's hard to buy, you should have to get the minimum 25*palette through some distributor or wait for mouser stock. These days it's probably better to put 2x2*2389 half coil and make mod to UE 18 ver 1.0, or replace one driver to 30095 (cut the spout by scalpel) or both sides to 30095+UE wbfk.


----------



## arxyu

My friend and I want to try something crazy and we came up with this idea: 

What if we make 2 DD drivers face each other, reverse the polarity of one of the driver and high pass it. And maybe add a very small resistor to the other one to solve the phase issue or something idk. Would that give us a clean and aggressive HF cut?

a quick 3d model to demonstrate our idea:






Has anyone tried this idea?
If yes please let me know the result, thanks a lot!


----------



## mattmatt

tomekk said:


> Unfortunately there is no documentation on google indexed, you would have to ask the knowles for the data sheet. For sure 33649 is without spout and the construction of this wbfk is identical to the ue18+
> 
> It's hard to buy, you should have to get the minimum 25*palette through some distributor or wait for mouser stock. These days it's probably better to put 2x2*2389 half coil and make mod to UE 18 ver 1.0, or replace one driver to 30095 (cut the spout by scalpel) or both sides to 30095+UE wbfk.


hmmm weird, mouser's documentation for this is the whole 3000 family. https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Knowles/WBFK-33649-000?qs=BJlw7L4Cy7%2BcFIha2UVLlQ== and this has spout on it


----------



## Xymordos

arxyu said:


> My friend and I want to try something crazy and we came up with this idea:
> 
> What if we make 2 DD drivers face each other, reverse the polarity of one of the driver and high pass it. And maybe add a very small resistor to the other one to solve the phase issue or something idk. Would that give us a clean and aggressive HF cut?
> 
> ...



Wouldn't you get the same slope as the slope of the high-passed driver? You can try though.


----------



## discus123

arxyu said:


> My friend and I want to try something crazy and we came up with this idea:
> 
> What if we make 2 DD drivers face each other, reverse the polarity of one of the driver and high pass it. And maybe add a very small resistor to the other one to solve the phase issue or something idk. Would that give us a clean and aggressive HF cut?
> 
> ...


Couple of years ago there's already have DIYer's doing it.


----------



## mattmatt

arxyu said:


> My friend and I want to try something crazy and we came up with this idea:
> 
> What if we make 2 DD drivers face each other, reverse the polarity of one of the driver and high pass it. And maybe add a very small resistor to the other one to solve the phase issue or something idk. Would that give us a clean and aggressive HF cut?
> 
> ...


I think this is the same as AAWxCustom Art Isobaric layout and JH Audio's Jolene Dual driver.


----------



## tomekk

Silicone ciems. Clear canals, colored shells.


----------



## swtnate

tomekk said:


> Silicone ciems. Clear canals, colored shells.


This is awesome.  Ive never been able to get a silicone set I could be proud of.  You’re really limited in drivers selection as they cant be back vented…


----------



## mattmatt

tomekk said:


> Silicone ciems. Clear canals, colored shells.


Holy crap my dude. How did you make the molds? Maaan these look great. Did you also use Lack B? Is it easy to trim the silicone to shape to remove burrs from the mold?


----------



## arxyu

Xymordos said:


> Wouldn't you get the same slope as the slope of the high-passed driver? You can try though.


Yeah I guess that would be the case but getting the same slope would already be pretty good IMO since it's more complicated to design a low pass filter. Thanks for letting me know though.



discus123 said:


> Couple of years ago there's already have DIYer's doing it.


Is that a BA spout mounted to it? Is there a graph or more info to it? I couldn't really find it. Thanks!



mattmatt said:


> I think this is the same as AAWxCustom Art Isobaric layout and JH Audio's Jolene Dual driver.


I looked into those IEMs and I saw AAW said on their website that they use inverse phasing or something, I guess that's what I'm looking for. Thanks!

I'll let you guys know if I actually put work into those and post some graphs.


----------



## swtnate

mattmatt said:


> Holy crap my dude. How did you make the molds? Maaan these look great. Did you also use Lack B? Is it easy to trim the silicone to shape to remove burrs from the mold?


This is the problem I ALWAYS had.  sanding out and polishing was awful.  On top of that, the connector would ALWAYS pull out….


----------



## Wgibson

Can you flash freeze the silicone surface to sand/polish? Freeze spray or upside down compressed air maybe, or set on a piece of dry ice.


----------



## swtnate

Wgibson said:


> Can you flash freeze the silicone surface to sand/polish? Freeze spray or upside down compressed air maybe, or set on a piece of dry ice.


Most of the time, the “negative” is 3D printed with small air hole canals.  the old school way was done with plaster.  i can get the plaster mold done great.  I can get all the drivers in place.  The main issue is 1) the polishing of the faceplate area and 2) a 2-pin, mmcx or trs connector that wont pull out of the IEM.


----------



## mattmatt

swtnate said:


> This is the problem I ALWAYS had.  sanding out and polishing was awful.  On top of that, the connector would ALWAYS pull out….


Iirc, lear used to do silicone shells that are hollow. A friend of mine had one before. Sockets were held with acrylic inside.


----------



## swtnate

mattmatt said:


> Iirc, lear used to do silicone shells that are hollow. A friend of mine had one before. Sockets were held with acrylic inside.


WHOA


----------



## cjh1041

Is there a way to find a good driver's config by looking at FR from the manufacturer? I do not have a sound measuring device and have to rely only on FR. I am trying to use Langzhisheng drivers since they are cheap and I want to have more hands-on experience without spending too much, but there is not much info about them anywhere. I am trying to make 2 bores config since that's the maximum capacity for my ear canal. 
I want to have a natural, but the vocal is close to my ear kind of sound so I was thinking
EJ-30029-000
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/227...0116562604955557152ec49d!12000018860233350!sh
EG-29689-000
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/226...0116562604955557153ec49d!12000024331124436!sh
To me, it looks like they will have a pretty flat line.... or am I wrong.
I also do not know what I should use for the crossover value.
Can anyone help me out, please?


----------



## swtnate

cjh1041 said:


> Is there a way to find a good driver's config by looking at FR from the manufacturer? I do not have a sound measuring device and have to rely only on FR. I am trying to use Langzhisheng drivers since they are cheap and I want to have more hands-on experience without spending too much, but there is not much info about them anywhere. I am trying to make 2 bores config since that's the maximum capacity for my ear canal.
> I want to have a natural, but the vocal is close to my ear kind of sound so I was thinking
> EJ-30029-000
> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/2271799817330891.html?spm=a2g0o.store_pc_groupList.8148356.1.73753e99Q2weCo&pdp_npi=2@dis!USD!US $26.00!US $26.00!US $24.70!!!!@0b0a050116562604955557152ec49d!12000018860233350!sh
> ...


Tubing - For both drivers
12 mm long, 3mm x 2mm 
yellow damper on the sub, white damper on the 29689

10 Ω resistor -> 4.7uf cap -> 29689

then, an L pad to the sub to taste.


----------



## cjh1041

swtnate said:


> Tubing - For both drivers
> 12 mm long, 3mm x 2mm
> yellow damper on the sub, white damper on the 29689
> 
> ...


Thank you for your reply.
Where should I put the damper? (middle of the tube, end of the bore)
Can you recommend the L pad value? I want to cut down 10 dB which I think it will make relative a flat FR. (Maybe a slight bass boost)
Have you used any other drivers from LS? I am trying to buy a variety of drivers since they are on sale and I want to build different configs.
Thank you again for your help.


----------



## swtnate

cjh1041 said:


> Thank you for your reply.
> Where should I put the damper? (middle of the tube, end of the bore)
> Can you recommend the L pad value? I want to cut down 10 dB which I think it will make relative a flat FR. (Maybe a slight bass boost)
> Have you used any other drivers from LS? I am trying to buy a variety of drivers since they are on sale and I want to build different configs.
> Thank you again for your help.


They are adequate.  I normally place the yellow closer to the bore and the white toward the middle. I cant give you a firm l-pad value.  But, you can plug the resistance value of the driver into an l-pad calculator.


----------



## cjh1041

swtnate said:


> They are adequate.  I normally place the yellow closer to the bore and the white toward the middle. I cant give you a firm l-pad value.  But, you can plug the resistance value of the driver into an l-pad calculator.


okay, thank you so much!
Do you know any other configs? Like using LS TWEK, FWEK or DEK with crossover?


----------



## swtnate

cjh1041 said:


> okay, thank you so much!
> Do you know any other configs? Like using LS TWEK, FWEK or DEK with crossover?


Not really.  Ive mainly used the 96, and the 32257.  also, their dual 32257 is really nice.


----------



## cjh1041

swtnate said:


> Not really.  Ive mainly used the 96, and the 32257.  also, their dual 32257 is really nice.


How did you do with dual 32257? Just two drivers in each unit?


----------



## swtnate

cjh1041 said:


> How did you do with dual 32257? Just two drivers in each unit?


I used it with a wbfk and a 3300


----------



## arielsivan

hi

Did anyone else have a roll off issue at 4k with the bs6.?


----------



## swtnate

arielsivan said:


> hi
> 
> Did anyone else have a roll off issue at 4k with the bs6.?


Judging by the bass creep, id say the first issues is lack of seal between tube and driver OR lack of seal between tube and shell.


----------



## Aldo40 (Jun 28, 2022)

Or the tweeter is disconnected electrically or
Is there a problem with the microphone?


----------



## arielsivan

swtnate said:


> Judging by the bass creep, id say the first issues is lack of seal between tube and driver OR lack of seal between tube and shell.





Aldo40 said:


> Or the tweeter is disconnected electrically or
> Is there a problem with the microphone?


The thing is I have 4 units of bs6 and in all of them I get this roll off

I'm using dayton imm-6.  And recorder with my galaxy s7 (😅) Could it be that the problem is with the cell phone at all?


----------



## swtnate

arielsivan said:


> The thing is I have 4 units of bs6 and in all of them I get this roll off
> 
> I'm using dayton imm-6.  And recorder with my galaxy s7 (😅) Could it be that the problem is with the cell phone at all?


You would have to have frequency testing of the drivers pre install followed by post install to know for sure where the issue might lie.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

ValSuki said:


> Heya head fi friends!
> I have a single DD iem thats fully 3d printable in resin and FDM! I would absolutely love some feedback to those curious about this, as it hosts only 10mm drivers currently. You are able to edit the design so whatever you desire as well. Just would love some feedback!
> https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:5411333


Thenks bruh


----------



## stegeoc

Hi All, I’ve just given up on about the third or fourth experimental build in some old shells (getting messier and messier each time). No specific build issues but my pre-build measurements and theoretical component values just never seem to all work once I’ve put everything together and then I end up tweaking and modifying post-build and never get where I want.

So for my next build, I need to go back to a known good formula (ish). My GVs are excellent (and an excellent fit) so I want something a step up from that. 

What I had in mind was a GK + RAB32063 zobelled (MASM4?) + 38d1xj007 sub. I think the GK can replace the GQ in the standard MASM3 formula so should be good, but would I mess things up by adding the sub? I’d like a really meaty sub-bass if possible. I was thinking to not add a highpass to the other drivers and maybe just to LPAD the 3800 to build up the bass instead of separating it. Would that work? Thanks!


----------



## swtnate

stegeoc said:


> Hi All, I’ve just given up on about the third or fourth experimental build in some old shells (getting messier and messier each time). No specific build issues but my pre-build measurements and theoretical component values just never seem to all work once I’ve put everything together and then I end up tweaking and modifying post-build and never get where I want.
> 
> So for my next build, I need to go back to a known good formula (ish). My GVs are excellent (and an excellent fit) so I want something a step up from that.
> 
> What I had in mind was a GK + RAB32063 zobelled (MASM4?) + 38d1xj007 sub. I think the GK can replace the GQ in the standard MASM3 formula so should be good, but would I mess things up by adding the sub? I’d like a really meaty sub-bass if possible. I was thinking to not add a highpass to the other drivers and maybe just to LPAD the 3800 to build up the bass instead of separating it. Would that work? Thanks!


The simple answer is yes. The 38 is SUPER powerful but has exceptional roll-off.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

swtnate said:


> The simple answer is yes. The 38 is SUPER powerful but has exceptional roll-off.


in mid and treble, thus making it a super subwoofer


----------



## swtnate

dhruvmeena96 said:


> in mid and treble, thus making it a super subwoofer


The electrical distribution will be skewed by adding the 38.  I would suspect the low end to OVER dominate the eq.  Thusly, drowning out the upper mids and highs.


----------



## stegeoc

swtnate said:


> The electrical distribution will be skewed by adding the 38.  I would suspect the low end to OVER dominate the eq.  Thusly, drowning out the upper mids and highs.


Can you elaborate please?  Do you mean that even with an L-pad on the 38, the EQ of the other drivers would be skewed?  Or do you mean if I just wire everything up in parallel?   Assuming I can get a decent EQ using an L-Pad on the 38 OR a highpass on the GK+RAB, which route is preferable/safer?  

I'm guessing the ideal route would be to highpass the GK+RAB at about 200Hz, but would the zobel and other components affect the C&R values (theoretically something like 10uF and 82R)?   And would I end up with an unwanted hump in the midbass regardless of what I chose?

For some reason I feel that just L-padding the 38 might be simpler, but that would turn a powerful driver into something that isn't fulfilling its potential..


----------



## swtnate

stegeoc said:


> Can you elaborate please?  Do you mean that even with an L-pad on the 38, the EQ of the other drivers would be skewed?  Or do you mean if I just wire everything up in parallel?   Assuming I can get a decent EQ using an L-Pad on the 38 OR a highpass on the GK+RAB, which route is preferable/safer?
> 
> I'm guessing the ideal route would be to highpass the GK+RAB at about 200Hz, but would the zobel and other components affect the C&R values (theoretically something like 10uF and 82R)?   And would I end up with an unwanted hump in the midbass regardless of what I chose?
> 
> For some reason I feel that just L-padding the 38 might be simpler, but that would turn a powerful driver into something that isn't fulfilling its potential..


You have to keep in mind, its all passive networking.  When you adjust one thing it will effect the others.  You can absolutely use an l-pad to lower the volume.  Just remember, it will effect all the other components in the network.  your source impedance is also important to keep in mind as well.  With variable source impedance you will get slight eq variation.


----------



## discus123

I spent another month for fine tunning this set of hybrid iem  Low : tusq 10mm DD / Low_mid : sonion 37ap015 / mid_high : sonion 2389 / High : knowles 31736   This set of iem has been assembly / disassembly over 50 times, tube length has tried from short to long, crossing with various combination of damper / cap / resistor and this is the final setup that I can do.

My next attempt will also be DD hybrid, Low: 10mm PU DD / low_mid : Sonion 28uap / mid_high : Sonion E50DT / high : knowles 31736


----------



## stegeoc

swtnate said:


> You have to keep in mind, its all passive networking.  When you adjust one thing it will effect the others.  You can absolutely use an l-pad to lower the volume.  Just remember, it will effect all the other components in the network.  your source impedance is also important to keep in mind as well.  With variable source impedance you will get slight eq variation.


Thanks, so I guess that means I really need to be prepared to experiment to get the values.  I think this time I will fix everything in the shell first with just leads soldered to the drivers (no smds) and then experiment with the smds outside the shell to get what I want.  Is that the normal practice?   Previously I've tried getting the values right before fixing in the shell, but found that things end up changing.  Possibly as the tubes get trimmed and maybe the glue/resin makes a difference or the seal/insertion depth to the coupler is different


----------



## swtnate

stegeoc said:


> Thanks, so I guess that means I really need to be prepared to experiment to get the values.  I think this time I will fix everything in the shell first with just leads soldered to the drivers (no smds) and then experiment with the smds outside the shell to get what I want.  Is that the normal practice?   Previously I've tried getting the values right before fixing in the shell, but found that things end up changing.  Possibly as the tubes get trimmed and maybe the glue/resin makes a difference or the seal/insertion depth to the coupler is different


you can most certainly test tube lengths, dampers, and smd networks prior to mounting.  However, without the right controls in place, you will have slight variance.  Pretty typical in bespoke hand made items.


----------



## musmecca

discus123 said:


> I spent another month for fine tunning this set of hybrid iem  Low : tusq 10mm DD / Low_mid : sonion 37ap015 / mid_high : sonion 2389 / High : knowles 31736   This set of iem has been assembly / disassembly over 50 times, tube length has tried from short to long, crossing with various combination of damper / cap / resistor and this is the final setup that I can do.
> 
> My next attempt will also be DD hybrid, Low: 10mm PU DD / low_mid : Sonion 28uap / mid_high : Sonion E50DT / high : knowles 31736


So, what did you learn or do you have a suitable build? I don't have the time for 50 iterations!


----------



## stegeoc

swtnate said:


> you can most certainly test tube lengths, dampers, and smd networks prior to mounting.  However, without the right controls in place, you will have slight variance.  Pretty typical in bespoke hand made items.


Cheers, will give it a go and let you know how things work out.  One thing I just realised is that the two 38 drivers are not wired together by default, so I can wire them in series and see what that gets me


----------



## dhruvmeena96

swtnate said:


> The electrical distribution will be skewed by adding the 38.  I would suspect the low end to OVER dominate the eq.  Thusly, drowning out the upper mids and highs.


depends how you design crossover, i can literally add one yellow damper to already overdamped 38D1Xj and then run fullrange with an Lpad and then design my mids, uppermids and tweeter according to that

kinda easy to get tbh, just slight more work


----------



## stegeoc

Started looking at this earlier and was a bit confused by the 38D1Xj wiring.  It seems to be perfectly symmetrical so which is + and -?  Can probably find out by testing but seems strange that it isn't clearly specified.  Am I missing something?   It is further confused by the pictures and diagrams showing the driver both ways up so there is no clear top or bottom.  Even the wording is written both ways up!






I found the following image, but even this shows + against both sides (the middle one is other other way up).  Can anyone confirm which is right?  Vents on + side?  Thanks!


----------



## piotrus-g (Jul 7, 2022)

stegeoc said:


> Started looking at this earlier and was a bit confused by the 38D1Xj wiring.  It seems to be perfectly symmetrical so which is + and -?  Can probably find out by testing but seems strange that it isn't clearly specified.  Am I missing something?   It is further confused by the pictures and diagrams showing the driver both ways up so there is no clear top or bottom.  Even the wording is written both ways up!
> 
> 
> 
> I found the following image, but even this shows + against both sides (the middle one is other other way up).  Can anyone confirm which is right?  Vents on + side?  Thanks!



Yes, + is on the side of the spout and vents


----------



## stegeoc

Erm, the spout is on the opposite side to the vents.  You mean the same side as the vents?  Can't believe they made it so confusing!  Is there a convention we're supposed to know?


----------



## Aldo40 (Jul 6, 2022)

when you look at the doc sonion, it’s very well done the shema, you can’t go wrong, the connectors + are rated vent as Piotr said, on the other hand, the spout is the opposite


----------



## stegeoc

Aldo40 said:


> when you look at the doc sonion, it’s very well done the shema, you can’t go wrong, the connectors + are rated vent as Piotr said, on the other hand, the spout is the opposite


Thanks all, I must have been looking at a different doc or just having a mental block. Hopefully try a few things out tomorrow.  Cheers


----------



## swtnate

Heres a community PSA:

Be wary of the drivers on aliexpress coming from the Langhizheng store.   The QC seems spotty at best.  Ive had drivers just cut out, lose volume, and some drivers will test out differently than all the other drivers of the same SKU.

They are cheap though… So, I guess I got what I paid for


----------



## kha1id

Hi, i am new to the forum amd new to iem diy! Nice to meet you all and thank you all of you sharing your knowledge of iem. It really helps!

Dont know if anyone here still love ue11/jh 11? I love it so much but i couldn't find pair of custom made nor demo unit for sell on the internet. (second hand)

As far as I remember, someone had told me that it is not possible to "copy" the ue 11 on your own since the dual low driver ue11e/jha xxx were tailor made for ue/jh.  It looks pretty much a 33aj007i/9 to me. 

Then, I read a passage from a Japanese blogger who tried to build up his own ue11 and tried to draw myself a circuit according to his sharing just for experiment/learning😛






Dont know if anyone of u discussed about before and hopefully i didn't get anything wrong on the circuit.


If I didn't get him wrong from translation, he thinks that the replica ue 11 he made was pretty close to the original one except the bass amount.


For more info of that ue11e driver,  i found it appears on the ue 18 pro (the old one) too.  They were just keep reusing the same driver perhaps haha.

For that 22955 like ba they used as mid range.  Some photos shows that the driver is ue low by soion (2015 i think) and some shows ci60003.  It mostly like can be replaced by a standard 22955.


When it comes to the hi driver.  it is a well known ue hi which similar to sonion 2389/ ed 29689.


And thats all i know for the ue11.  I have also got the circuit of UE 10 (not tf10),  and found it most of the iem shared similar circuit design. Dont know anyone here still remember these legacy iems.  I think i will diy a ue 10 for myself first ♥️♥️


----------



## mattmatt

kha1id said:


> Hi, i am new to the forum amd new to iem diy! Nice to meet you all and thank you all of you sharing your knowledge of iem. It really helps!
> 
> Dont know if anyone here still love ue11/jh 11? I love it so much but i couldn't find pair of custom made nor demo unit for sell on the internet. (second hand)
> 
> ...


this is mostly right iirc.


----------



## Xymordos

kha1id said:


> Hi, i am new to the forum amd new to iem diy! Nice to meet you all and thank you all of you sharing your knowledge of iem. It really helps!
> 
> Dont know if anyone here still love ue11/jh 11? I love it so much but i couldn't find pair of custom made nor demo unit for sell on the internet. (second hand)
> 
> ...



CI22955 can't really replace the CI60003, the peaks aren't at the right places sadly.


----------



## kha1id (Jul 14, 2022)

Xymordos said:


> CI22955 can't really replace the CI60003, the peaks aren't at the right places sadly.


the pity thing is that we can't find a replacement for dual low driver 😭

btw some said the driver in tf10 was the same to ue 11 dual low.... i doubt that...


----------



## mattmatt

kha1id said:


> the pity thing is that we can't find a replacement for dual low driver 😭
> 
> btw some said the driver in tf10 was the same to ue 11 dual low.... i doubt that...


They are the same afaik. Can't remember but tf10/Ue11 dual driver is a bit different in the bass area. Can't remember which is bassier.


----------



## kha1id

mattmatt said:


> They are the same afaik. Can't remember but tf10/Ue11 dual driver is a bit different in the bass area. Can't remember which is bassier.


if ue 11 dual low = ue 18 dual low than ue 11 shld be bassier.  Just that there is resistor on tf10 (not sure is it for bass driver)


----------



## swtnate

mattmatt said:


> They are the same afaik. Can't remember but tf10/Ue11 dual driver is a bit different in the bass area. Can't remember which is bassier.


I was always under the assumption that a variant of the 3300 is/was being used… I mean, we CAN replicate it through testing… I dont really know what the value of that would be… if youre going to run a litany of tests, I feel youd be better served setting your target and shooting for that rather than emulate something.  Just my 2 cents. UE11’s are great.  However, you can also develop a great set as well.


----------



## mattmatt

My apologies. Re-reading my post, brain fart. 

Tf10/UE11 is the same afaik but compared to sonion 33AJ007, there's a tiny bit difference. You can use it as direct replacement if you don't mind the slight difference. 

Forgot what's bassier compared to UE vs stock 33A7. 

TF10 has a RC LPF + Cap HPF on 2389. UE11 only has a resistor on CI + Cap on ED/2389.

UE18, can't remember. But UE18+ has an inductor, 2 caps and a resistor. Forgot the config.


----------



## mattmatt

UE11 and FitEar ToGo 334 has almost the same set up.


----------



## Wgibson

Xymordos said:


> CI22955 can't really replace the CI60003, the peaks aren't at the right places sadly.



Can you post the CI60003 frequency response graph? I have a few weird drivers on hand that might get closer


----------



## kha1id

mattmatt said:


> UE11 and FitEar ToGo 334 has almost the same set up.


Yesss!  They just sound so different. Amazing🐰


----------



## kha1id

swtnate said:


> I was always under the assumption that a variant of the 3300 is/was being used… I mean, we CAN replicate it through testing… I dont really know what the value of that would be… if youre going to run a litany of tests, I feel youd be better served setting your target and shooting for that rather than emulate something.  Just my 2 cents. UE11’s are great.  However, you can also develop a great set as well.


There is a lower resistance on ue dual low i read on some other articles.


----------



## Xymordos

Wgibson said:


> Can you post the CI60003 frequency response graph? I have a few weird drivers on hand that might get closer



I've never measured it alone :\ The bass driver in my UERM died a few years back and I tried to find a replacement. The 22955 was definitely not it. But in the end I wasn't too bothered and just used the 22955 since it was "close enough".


----------



## JEHL (Jul 15, 2022)

Is it possible to make a wireless IEM that has the receiver, battery and DSP/crossover hanging outside the ear so I can cram a 13+mm DD and 3BA inside the IEM's frame itself while also communicating through a 5gHz USB Type-C wireless dongle with Lightning and Type-A adapters?

Edit: Does this sound massively overkill?


----------



## Wgibson

JEHL said:


> Is it possible to make a wireless IEM that has the receiver, battery and DSP/crossover hanging outside the ear so I can cram a 13+mm DD and 3BA inside the IEM's frame itself while also communicating through a 5gHz USB Type-C wireless dongle with Lightning and Type-A adapters?
> 
> Edit: Does this sound massively overkill?



Yep, I regularly use special connectors /pinouts for external crossovers, and I wouldn't touch that project you described... No way it will all fit in or on the shell. Make the IEM, use one of the behind the ear bluetooth adapters.


----------



## JEHL

Wgibson said:


> Yep, I regularly use special connectors /pinouts for external crossovers, and I wouldn't touch that project you described... No way it will all fit in or on the shell. Make the IEM, use one of the behind the ear bluetooth adapters.


Guess I must have worded it all poorly. The point is that I want the non-driver components to not take up space inside the housing of the IEM so you can get more experimental with the inside of the IEM's housing itself. I don't really care HOW it's achieved, only that it's possible.

Edit: KInd of like the KZ E10


----------



## Wgibson

JEHL said:


> Guess I must have worded it all poorly. The point is that I want the non-driver components to not take up space inside the housing of the IEM so you can get more experimental with the inside of the IEM's housing itself. I don't really care HOW it's achieved, only that it's possible.
> 
> Edit: KInd of like the KZ E10



1.27mm spacing connectors. These are 13mm DD, 10mm planar, FED26859.


----------



## l33333on

Update regarding my order of 6x "Bellsing 10013": After waiting for 6 months I still didnt receive a package and the german customs office is not answering my questions about the package, chinese tracking says its "expired"... At least paypal gave me my money back. I bought at "thisfractalworld.com", maybe someone still sells these drivers and can hit me up?

Update: The website seems dead, lol. It was up for like 15 years


----------



## arielsivan

Hi.

I have a question for the experts here.. 
what are the main effects of the tubing diameter (OD and ID) and length on the frequency response?

I think I noticed a smaller diameter decrease the high frequencies.


----------



## swtnate

arielsivan said:


> Hi.
> 
> I have a question for the experts here..
> what are the main effects of the tubing diameter (OD and ID) and length on the frequency response?
> ...


Dunno about expert…😂 but, I will say that smaller ID(1-1.5mm) work to cut out the high frequencies.  Larger ID (2-3mm) work to cut the lows.  Length of tubing will heighten the effect but will also effect the output level along with phase if cut too long.  Type of tubing also effects final FR.  Industry norm is soft vinyl.  However, if put in silicone, a different response is given.  Manual manipulation of the FR has been used to great effect.  In some ways its more effective with IEMs than electrical manipulation.  However, for low frequency drivers, nothing beats a properly calculated L-Pad, which will lower overall volume of the driver without introducing a phase shift AND will eliminate a 2-3rd harmonic bump.  Also, using MELF resistors greatly reduces overall THD.  For high frequencies, a longer and wider tubing coupled with properly sized capacitor works wonders as well.


----------



## arielsivan

swtnate said:


> Dunno about expert…😂 but, I will say that smaller ID(1-1.5mm) work to cut out the high frequencies.  Larger ID (2-3mm) work to cut the lows.  Length of tubing will heighten the effect but will also effect the output level along with phase if cut too long.  Type of tubing also effects final FR.  Industry norm is soft vinyl.  However, if put in silicone, a different response is given.  Manual manipulation of the FR has been used to great effect.  In some ways its more effective with IEMs than electrical manipulation.  However, for low frequency drivers, nothing beats a properly calculated L-Pad, which will lower overall volume of the driver without introducing a phase shift AND will eliminate a 2-3rd harmonic bump.  Also, using MELF resistors greatly reduces overall THD.  For high frequencies, a longer and wider tubing coupled with properly sized capacitor works wonders as well.


What an expert answer! 
 Thank!


----------



## swtnate

arielsivan said:


> What an expert answer!
> Thank!


😂


----------



## stegeoc

Speaking of L-pads, I did complete my previous Gk+RAB+38D1Xj but I’ve been distracted by the new arrival of my Mars 3. Damper options are currently a bit limited so may tweak again in future, but I’m really enjoying them as they are. I used an l-pad (3.2 series and 5.1 parallel I think) with the 38s in series.  Oddly I had to reverse the polarity to get it to add to the bass of the GK. RAB has the standard zobel and MASM tubing and I added a 3.2 or 5.1R in series with everything. Very solid bass and very clear vocals (especially male). Thanks for all the tips guys


----------



## stegeoc

And on the Mars 3, can any of the 3d printing gurus out there give any tips for how they print/slice their models?

Although my first prints were great without any supports or rotation, there were some minor details omitted from the connector area, so I played around with different orientations and support structures and haven’t yet found the perfect solution. I’m trying to print crystal clear and it is more difficult than I thought it would be. With supports on the outside, I can still see the dots after sanding so I assume you need to only attach supports to the base perimeter. That however puts the connector facing the build plate and so it loses some detail unless I put it at an angle.  Is that how you guys do it?  Will increasing the exposure help with the detail facing the build plate?

Also, close up I can see the layers at 50 microns even after sanding. Do I need to go down to 10 or 20 microns? Or just sand more?

Overall the printer has been excellent so far but going from excellent to perfect doesn’t seem easy.

Thanks!


----------



## JEHL

Wgibson said:


> 1.27mm spacing connectors. These are 13mm DD, 10mm planar, FED26859.


Although maybe I'm looking at this thinking it works like loudspeakers where the larger the woofer is with all else equal the higher the sensitivity is. 

So if I wanted to make it wireless I assume I want to maximize SPL/mW. Rigjt?


----------



## swtnate

stegeoc said:


> And on the Mars 3, can any of the 3d printing gurus out there give any tips for how they print/slice their models?
> 
> Although my first prints were great without any supports or rotation, there were some minor details omitted from the connector area, so I played around with different orientations and support structures and haven’t yet found the perfect solution. I’m trying to print crystal clear and it is more difficult than I thought it would be. With supports on the outside, I can still see the dots after sanding so I assume you need to only attach supports to the base perimeter. That however puts the connector facing the build plate and so it loses some detail unless I put it at an angle.  Is that how you guys do it?  Will increasing the exposure help with the detail facing the build plate?
> 
> ...


When you are 3D printing, especially with liquid resin, you should almost ALWAYS have it tilted at an angle.  Basically, the printer can only print surfaces that are connected.  If the printer tries to print a surface that is not attached (ie floating) there is nothing for it to hold onto.  Also, the resin you choose to use will also have a great effect on the final result.  
i would recommend downloading an app called UV tools.  Theres a   resin cure test you can run that is honestly amazing.  Also, I use Lychee Slicer.  When I first started, the auto supports and island checker where LIFESAVERS.


----------



## AMerePerson

JEHL said:


> Guess I must have worded it all poorly. The point is that I want the non-driver components to not take up space inside the housing of the IEM so you can get more experimental with the inside of the IEM's housing itself. I don't really care HOW it's achieved, only that it's possible.
> 
> Edit: KInd of like the KZ E10


Looking at the KZ E10, wouldn’t something like the FiiO UTWS5 work? 

It would not have a crossover/EQ, and the wireless would be over Bluetooth.


----------



## stegeoc (Jul 20, 2022)

swtnate said:


> When you are 3D printing, especially with liquid resin, you should almost ALWAYS have it tilted at an angle.  Basically, the printer can only print surfaces that are connected.  If the printer tries to print a surface that is not attached (ie floating) there is nothing for it to hold onto.  Also, the resin you choose to use will also have a great effect on the final result.
> i would recommend downloading an app called UV tools.  Theres a   resin cure test you can run that is honestly amazing.  Also, I use Lychee Slicer.  When I first started, the auto supports and island checker where LIFESAVERS.


Thanks, I've given Lychee and UV Tools a try now, and there is a lot more flexibilkity there than with Chitubox so lots to play with.   The shells actually look really good but I was (possibly unrealistically) aiming for a glass look and every option and orientation seems to leave a minor imperfection somewhere.  I think I need to keep the supports on the outside so the marks can be sanded away more easily and also to let the resin clear from the inside more freely.  I may also need to improve my cleaning technique before curing.

Having said that, I may already have some that can be made clear with some sanding and lack.


Wgibson said:


> 1.27mm spacing connectors. These are 13mm DD, 10mm planar, FED26859.


That is some fantastic soldering.  Very impressed!


----------



## Wgibson

@stegeoc thanks, was not too bad after doing these... 4x32257 with 31736, one circuit has all the 32257 in series, the other is 2x2 series/parallel.


----------



## discus123

discus123 said:


> I spent another month for fine tunning this set of hybrid iem  Low : tusq 10mm DD / Low_mid : sonion 37ap015 / mid_high : sonion 2389 / High : knowles 31736   This set of iem has been assembly / disassembly over 50 times, tube length has tried from short to long, crossing with various combination of damper / cap / resistor and this is the final setup that I can do.
> 
> My next attempt will also be DD hybrid, Low: 10mm PU DD / low_mid : Sonion 28uap / mid_high : Sonion E50DT / high : knowles 31736




Finally I can fill the dip in 5kHz.  The modi that I have made is re-adjusting the tubing length in the ratio of,   bass=1 / mid=1.2 / high=2 , this ratio formula is previously posted by dhruvmeena96 in this thread.  Further more, I have used bigger value of cap for 31736 replacing 0.33uf.  The dip in 5kHz looks better now.






My hybrid config is low: tusq DD 10mm x1/ low_mid: sonion 37ap015 x1 / mid_high: sonion 2389 x1/ high: knowles 31736 x1
The FR looks close to VE8,  VE8 consists of low: sonion 38am x1 / low_mid: sonion 37ap015 x1 / mid and high: knowles 32254 x2


----------



## Aldo40

stegeoc said:


> .
> Having said that, I may already have some that can be made clear with some sanding and lack.
> 
> That is some fantastic soldering.  Very impressed!



On 3D printing with clear resin, to have a look like glass you had to sanded and varnish all the inner and outer hulls, you can dip the hulls directly into the varnish and then do the UV treatment.

For the orientation of the shell in shitubox or lychee, I put the nozzle up straight and I mount the 8mm piece and I apply the automatic support, and I remove the internal support and I print.
Each resin has its own properties so you have to adjust its settings by doing tests.
And you’re right, 3D printing isn’t as simple as it sounds 
The most difficult is to print the clear hulls not tinted.


----------



## Aldo40




----------



## IndyAudio14

HELLO,DOES ANYBODY HAVE CI DRIVER NUMBERS ON BASS AND MID FOR THIS SETUP SONION TWEETER ALSO


----------



## IndyAudio14

UE 7 PRO NUMBERS ON DRIVERS FROM LAST POST SORRY


----------



## Aldo40

IndyAudio14 said:


> UE 7 PRO NUMBERS ON DRIVERS FROM LAST POST SORRY



Probably 2XCi 22955 and 1x 2389


----------



## tomekk

20mm red damper Knowles CI22955 x2 one full range, second 10ohm resistor, Sonion 2389 half coil wiring 1,5uF green damper 12-14mm
*this is not a scheme UE7 legally protected, this is my homage wiring proposal


----------



## JEHL

discus123 said:


> Finally I can fill the dip in 5kHz.  The modi that I have made is re-adjusting the tubing length in the ratio of,   bass=1 / mid=1.2 / high=2 , this ratio formula is previously posted by dhruvmeena96 in this thread.  Further more, I have used bigger value of cap for 31736 replacing 0.33uf.  The dip in 5kHz looks better now.
> 
> 
> My hybrid config is low: tusq DD 10mm x1/ low_mid: sonion 37ap015 x1 / mid_high: sonion 2389 x1/ high: knowles 31736 x1
> The FR looks close to VE8,  VE8 consists of low: sonion 38am x1 / low_mid: sonion 37ap015 x1 / mid and high: knowles 32254 x2


How did you measure the decay?

Also. Is it possible to view it as a function of cycles rather than ms?


----------



## discus123

JEHL said:


> How did you measure the decay?
> 
> Also. Is it possible to view it as a function of cycles rather than ms?


Sorry for my late reply.  I measure with the iec711 artifical ear.  I have bought 2 sets from the same seller in Taobao, the 1st one I bought while measure the FR is not too stable and I guess it is damaged then I bought another one, but finally find out is the connection cable problems.  2 of them are now working fine after changing the cable.  The seller come along with the Readme file for setup Arta and steps on calibrate the iec711.  The seller also provided a FR Compensation file for Arta.   I just followed the config in the readme file, I can't remember the setup in Arta, right now I'm still in the office.
I haven't used that feature as you mentioned, ..... function of cycles.  I check if the readme cover that topic or not.  I can't answer you now and my progress is very slow, everydays after office almost mid-night then I have time to do my trial and test.


----------



## MatteoHerrero (Jul 29, 2022)

Hi everybody,

Soon I want to build my first DIY CIEM.
I think I am well prepared after reading through this very interesting thread.

For the beginning I want to start with the GK-31732-000 armature (with red and green damper) and I wonder if this is still a good BA in 2022?
I come from a Shure Se215.. Will I notice a big upgrade soundwise?
Would anyone recommend another driver?

Greets,
Matthias


----------



## tomekk

Very good choice. Ci is one of the most powerful woofers. TWFK smooth mids and high quality top.


----------



## swtnate

MatteoHerrero said:


> Hi everybody,
> 
> Soon I want to build my first DIY CIEM.
> I think I am well prepared after reading through this very interesting thread.
> ...


A sonion build of 3300 plus a 2389 is also VERY good.


----------



## stegeoc

Aldo40 said:


>


Thanks for the info.  This was my first approach but I'd had trouble keeping the inside of the shell blemish free (even without supports inside the shell) so started trying the other way up (easier to sand the outside).  I've always struggled to sand the insides but have ordered some sanding cones now, which I hope will help.  I think I may have also been getting tiny bits of uncured resin attaching itself to the inside, so I may need to be more thorough with the pre-cure cleaning.  Hopefully get a chance to experiment again soon.  Dipping (or spraying) rather than brushing sounds very tempting too, but I don't have much lack 3 and that stuff is expensive so not sure if I'll be trying that.  Cheers


----------



## Aldo40

To sand the inside of the shell, I use this tool for Dremel, I can’t remember what it’s called. C is like a split arrow for sticking pieces of paper


----------



## stegeoc

Aldo40 said:


> To sand the inside of the shell, I use this tool for Dremel, I can’t remember what it’s called. C is like a split arrow for sticking pieces of paper


ah, interesting.  Not seen one of these before.  Will check it out.  Thanks


----------



## mattmatt

Aldo40 said:


> To sand the inside of the shell, I use this tool for Dremel, I can’t remember what it’s called. C is like a split arrow for sticking pieces of paper


Never sanded the inside of a shell. Why would one sand the inside? I do drill them for sockets and tubes but never sanded them. 

Also, those are called split mandrel. Figured it would be easier for folks here to find it if I mention it


----------



## Aldo40 (Aug 1, 2022)

mattmatt said:


> Never sanded the inside of a shell. Why would one sand the inside? I do drill them for sockets and tubes but never sanded them.



On clear resin 3D shells and contrary to the traditional method, if you want to have a smooth rendering, you have to sand the inside of the shells to have a better hanging of the varnish during soaking.

The 3 D shell looks smooth and very precise but it’s still a layer overlay and we don’t have as smooth a rendering as the traditional shell interior.
3D rendering is matte due to layer overlay that gives a stair surface appearance of some micron
Aldo


----------



## Shadowelite

Quick question noob here
Does the ohm/ impedance matter when choosing a dd driver?
I know the higher the impedance the easier it is to drive i think
But what about the quality if the sound produced? 

Thanks


----------



## kha1id

Another stupid question here.

Regarding the path of CR High Pass Filter for the hi freq driver.  The cap is connected to the positive and the resistor is connected to both positive amd negative port on the deiver.  Is it correct to follow or just connect both of the cap and resistor on the positive port is ok?

As far as I know,  connect only the cap can cut of low frequency.  What is the resistor reacts? To low down the volume of that ba?


----------



## swtnate

kha1id said:


> Another stupid question here.
> 
> Regarding the path of CR High Pass Filter for the hi freq driver.  The cap is connected to the positive and the resistor is connected to both positive amd negative port on the deiver.  Is it correct to follow or just connect both of the cap and resistor on the positive port is ok?
> 
> As far as I know,  connect only the cap can cut of low frequency.  What is the resistor reacts? To low down the volume of that ba?


a traditional buttersworth crossover will cause a electrical phase shift.  Majority of us will use capacitors and resistors in series with driver.  Not parallel.  So, the signal chain would look like:
 + ——— Resistor —— (C) —- driver 

one caveat, L-pads and Zobel networks feature components wired parallel to the driver.  However, they will not induce an electrical phase shift as long as they are properly calculated.


----------



## tablo80

Aldo40 said:


> On 3D printing with clear resin, to have a look like glass you had to sanded and varnish all the inner and outer hulls, you can dip the hulls directly into the varnish and then do the UV treatment.
> 
> For the orientation of the shell in shitubox or lychee, I put the nozzle up straight and I mount the 8mm piece and I apply the automatic support, and I remove the internal support and I print.
> Each resin has its own properties so you have to adjust its settings by doing tests.
> ...


Sorry, how do you do the UV treatment?


----------



## kha1id

swtnate said:


> a traditional buttersworth crossover will cause a electrical phase shift.  Majority of us will use capacitors and resistors in series with driver.  Not parallel.  So, the signal chain would look like:
> + ——— Resistor —— (C) —- driver
> 
> one caveat, L-pads and Zobel networks feature components wired parallel to the driver.  However, they will not induce an electrical phase shift as long as they are properly calculated.


○h.. Thank you so much.  It really help a lot!


----------



## Aldo40

@tablo80, I dip the shell and then I turn it in a turnstile under the UV .


----------



## swtnate

Aldo40 said:


> @tablo80, I dip the shell and then I turn it in a turnstile under the UV .


I made a homemade one using a simple motor and appleTV packaging. 😂😂 I think the tutorial is in this thread…. It spins so fast. 😂😂😂


----------



## mattmatt

swtnate said:


> I made a homemade one using a simple motor and appleTV packaging. 😂😂 I think the tutorial is in this thread…. It spins so fast. 😂😂😂


There are geared motors that are 30/60rpm. Works really well.


----------



## swtnate

mattmatt said:


> There are geared motors that are 30/60rpm. Works really well.


I know bro. 😂😂😂 I got the slowest motor available at the local Fry’s Electronics.  It spins about twice as fast as the one from lightning.


----------



## Aldo40 (Aug 4, 2022)

mattmatt said:


> There are geared motors that are 30/60rpm. Works really well.



So I’m showing an example of a machine that needs to be done.
I’m a little ashamed of published mine which is also a DIY assembly with asynchronous motor  15 RPM   

To select my motor I had watched the video of QDC or other video to determine the number of turns per minute, 15 RPM I find it good, it turns slowly and it standardized well the varnish


----------



## swtnate

Aldo40 said:


> So I’m showing an example of a machine that needs to be done.
> I’m a little ashamed of published mine which is also a DIY assembly with asynchronous motor  15 RPM
> 
> To select my motor I had watched the video of QDC or other video to determine the number of turns per minute, 15 RPM I find it good, it turns slowly and it standardized well the varnish


My super hero turner is a CHAMP if you shake off enough after a dip OR after an airbrush application.


----------



## mattrva

Just wanted to share here a recent experiment that has gone surprisingly well. I own a few pairs of CIEMs - Alclair Dual XB (which suck), and DM6. I play a lot of live music and have enjoyed the switch to IEM system. Someone recommended I try the CCA CRA IEMs, and I just couldn't believe how incredible they sounded compared to what I had. So I decided I would try to convert the CRA's into CIEMs.

I took the Alclairs apart, and used them to create a silicone mold. Then, I poured a small amount of resin into the mold, and placed the CRA IEM into the mold and let it seal. From there, I had to clean up some edges and drill the stem hole to reach the CRA. They came out REALLY GREAT, the sound signature is still there, they are leagues better than what I had before, and I get to enjoy the benefits of CIEMs while also enjoying the cost savings and great sound of chi-fi IEMs!

I have a few more things to do to refine and improve, like using a heat gun to reduce bubbling in the resin, and I have a Fotoplast UV Lacquer-3 coming in the mail to have a better finish to the exterior.

Just wanted to share, curious to see if anyone else has tried this, and if there are any suggestions or recommendations!

Image below (left is CCA CRA, middle is my old Alclair Dual XB, and right is the modified CRA)


----------



## swtnate

mattrva said:


> Just wanted to share here a recent experiment that has gone surprisingly well. I own a few pairs of CIEMs - Alclair Dual XB (which suck), and DM6. I play a lot of live music and have enjoyed the switch to IEM system. Someone recommended I try the CCA CRA IEMs, and I just couldn't believe how incredible they sounded compared to what I had. So I decided I would try to convert the CRA's into CIEMs.
> 
> I took the Alclairs apart, and used them to create a silicone mold. Then, I poured a small amount of resin into the mold, and placed the CRA IEM into the mold and let it seal. From there, I had to clean up some edges and drill the stem hole to reach the CRA. They came out REALLY GREAT, the sound signature is still there, they are leagues better than what I had before, and I get to enjoy the benefits of CIEMs while also enjoying the cost savings and great sound of chi-fi IEMs!
> 
> ...


Thats awesome! FYI - no need for a heat gun.  Heat the resin to 112°.  It will lower viscosity and allow air to escape.  Also, try pouring the resin into the helix curl to allow the mold to fill.


----------



## swtnate

mattrva said:


> Just wanted to share here a recent experiment that has gone surprisingly well. I own a few pairs of CIEMs - Alclair Dual XB (which suck), and DM6. I play a lot of live music and have enjoyed the switch to IEM system. Someone recommended I try the CCA CRA IEMs, and I just couldn't believe how incredible they sounded compared to what I had. So I decided I would try to convert the CRA's into CIEMs.
> 
> I took the Alclairs apart, and used them to create a silicone mold. Then, I poured a small amount of resin into the mold, and placed the CRA IEM into the mold and let it seal. From there, I had to clean up some edges and drill the stem hole to reach the CRA. They came out REALLY GREAT, the sound signature is still there, they are leagues better than what I had before, and I get to enjoy the benefits of CIEMs while also enjoying the cost savings and great sound of chi-fi IEMs!
> 
> ...


Follow-up: i use a coffee cup programmable heating element to insure an even heat-up.
COSORI Mug Warmer & Coffee Cup... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B089SGRVBJ?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share


----------



## kha1id

tomekk said:


> 20mm red damper Knowles CI22955 x2 one full range, second 10ohm resistor, Sonion 2389 half coil wiring 1,5uF green damper 12-14mm
> *this is not a scheme UE7 legally protected, this is my homage wiring proposal


Cool!
I remember that UE7 Sound Like a bigger and thcker UE4.


----------



## kha1id

There are some websites provide calculator for cutoff frequence

In the blank of resistor if I use on cap for hi cut,  Should I input the driver's DC impedance for calculation? (e.g. ED-29689 @ 10.2 ohm)
According to some previous posts, someone suggested that the impedance is depending (e.g. cut off @ 1kz input the impedance of 1Kz)
Which one is correct?

How  about half coil wiring?  The impedance/resistant will reduce half (?)


Planning to get some drivers and tools to build my own but the circuit and calculation are very confusing - -


----------



## BlackSpaceCat

20pcs DIY Earphones Tuning Paper Damping Front Shell Filter Mesh Increase Low Frequency

Friends! How much does filter density affect sound?
Has anyone bought one and compared?
What is the difference in decibels between different filters?
Maybe someone saw a comparison of the frequency response?
I have no way to buy different ones and compare myself. Thank you for any information.


----------



## Aldo40

This does not affect the sound as much as the damper for example


----------



## swtnate

kha1id said:


> There are some websites provide calculator for cutoff frequence
> 
> In the blank of resistor if I use on cap for hi cut,  Should I input the driver's DC impedance for calculation? (e.g. ED-29689 @ 10.2 ohm)
> According to some previous posts, someone suggested that the impedance is depending (e.g. cut off @ 1kz input the impedance of 1Kz)
> ...


This will all depend on the source impedance.  With variation in the source, the drivers can (most likely WILL) respond differently.  There are some things you can do to mitigate the effect.  One really awesome thing you can do, is once tuned, place an l-pad and/or a Zobel network to prevent large impedance swings for the whole circuit (Zobel) and/or reduce the tendency for the tweeter/upper mid driver to become sibilant or crunchy (THD reduction).  A LOT of the drivers we use for CIEM or IEMs in general, have there FR peak(s) at over 120-125dB.  At the level of volume being so close to ear drum, you will begin to deteriorate your hearing with long hours of listening or monitoring.  SO, you have some room to kinda level them out and reduce the overall output without compromising or making them sound muted.  Just some tidbits of advice.


----------



## mattrva

Does anyone happen to know or have a link to what driver is used in the CCA CRA?


----------



## Mr.HiAudio

Does anyone have instructions on how to hook up an EST to make it sound right? 
I want to remade a crossover in TRN BAX


----------



## EarphoneTony

Hi Guys! 
New member here, but have been watching this thread for a while - very impressed! I wanted to buy a measurement rig to measure my earphones - what do you recommend to be compliant with IEC711 standard? I saw you were ordering sth from AliExpress - can you recommend some sellers?
Cheers!


----------



## kha1id

I finally started to build my own iemsss..

1) RAB-32257
Surprisingly good sounding driver. I soldered it without any resistors.  Sound so good without dampers,  will try to wire up with 1-5R resistors to see if there are any sound different.  I found it works good with white and brown dampers, when I installed Green dampers, it sounds like westone🤣

2) Rab-32257 as full range, 29689 with only 1.5-3.3 cap (proposed)
Have read ppl suggested 32257 + 30095. I still want to try the combination with 29689.  Maybe need to add a resistor on 29689.

3) Dual Ci-22955 + 30017
22955 in parallel with 5.1R should be good.  I am also thinking of wire up the CI with 5.1R and the second ci with 10R. But I am quite confused with 30017 maybe connect a 0.47-1.5uf cap according to suggestions from previous post.

Soldering is so difficult 🥹

Should I just buy myself a artificial ear?🤣


----------



## kha1id

kha1id said:


> I finally started to build my own iemsss..
> 
> 1) RAB-32257
> Surprisingly good sounding driver. I soldered it without any resistors.  Sound so good without dampers,  will try to wire up with 1-5R resistors to see if there are any sound different.  I found it works good with white and brown dampers, when I installed Green dampers, it sounds like westone🤣
> ...


I have ruined few drivers due to poor soldering skills😮‍💨


And my rab+ed combination seemed not working too. When the drivers work tgt in parallel they sound ok. I have tried to wire only the ed + 3.3uf in series,  the volume is low.  Dont Know if it is correct....


----------



## dhruvmeena96

kha1id said:


> I have ruined few drivers due to poor soldering skills😮‍💨
> 
> 
> And my rab+ed combination seemed not working too. When the drivers work tgt in parallel they sound ok. I have tried to wire only the ed + 3.3uf in series,  the volume is low.  Dont Know if it is correct....


Time to practice again bruv
Also never solder components directly on driver but on wire so you can fix it later


----------



## kha1id

dhruvmeena96 said:


> Time to practice again bruv
> Also never solder components directly on driver but on wire so you can fix it later


Thanks for the support! 

I use rab as full range. ED tab center + cab. Does +/- on rab need to be reversed?


----------



## kha1id

kha1id said:


> Thanks for the support!
> 
> I use rab as full range. ED tab center + cab. Does +/- on rab need to be reversed?


Updates.


I spend few hours to make one side of my rab + 29689 combination.

Rab+/-reverse + red damper
29689 + 3.3uf cap + green damper.

it works finally.  Last time i wire them with normal polarities rab got no sound.

i think rab with green damper + 29689 with withe might be also good as well but i could have ruined the wiring when changing dampera haha.


Photos will be posted after finishing a pair of it.


Cheers!


----------



## kha1id (Aug 23, 2022)

kha1id said:


> Updates.
> 
> 
> I spend few hours to make one side of my rab + 29689 combination.
> ...


Good Night

I just finished building my first pair with my ears.


RAB 32257 Red Damper + ED 29689 Green Damper.

Sound is not bad with sufficient bass and mids and easy highs! Warm and not too sharp as well.

I feel so tired on wiring things up😵‍💫


----------



## BCool

Has anyone made something like this list but for IEM drivers?


----------



## Arski

Hi there hello, 

I am new here, been for a while as a reader and student, going through all the posts here. I wanted to start my personal iem for concerts. Anyways, I did my molds and 3d prints for shells and there is everything working fine. The problem I’ve got is to combine BA’s. 

I’ve got setup with the Sonion 38AJ007 for bass with Yellow damper, mid and high is Knowles Gu32829 with white damper and tubing is 2x1,5 (inner)

The problem I’ve got is that I couldn’t make a proper Lo-Pass cause adding a cap in parallel on 38AJ007 affected also high end on Knowles. I’ve decided to kill the high end with the dumper on Sonion instead putting a cap. After all sound of this setup is missing high end, rolloff on 10Khz. Do you have any idea to tune this setup? Or does anyone have a good setup for BA’s like 

Sonion 38Aj007; 2389D; e50dt; 37AJ007; 37Ap007. 

I am slowly losing the faith for building something working and sounding at least good. The setup I described Sonion+Knowles is midrangy as heck. Snare is beating my brain  if you could show me the direction I’d be grateful.


----------



## Aldo40 (Aug 28, 2022)

Hi Arski,
You didn’t put serial resistance on the 33AJ? And what capacitor value did you put on the 33Aj?
I don’t want to discourage you but without measure it will be difficult to settle the IEM 

And in case you measure, let us your graph


----------



## Arski

My setup was with the 38aj007 on a bass Driver and there was no resistant at all, only 47uF on parallel but the high cut was on my 38aj and also on that Knowles gu32829, idk why it affected also the other mid/high driver. I’ll send the measure tommorow, the graph was pretty flat with the 10k rolloff


----------



## kha1id

Hi!

Does anyone know what are the damper colors of MH334 MH335DW?
I got 2 pairs of copies but the dampers inside seem not right.
My MH334 got 3 white dampers and MH335DW got only one white damper on CI

Besides, I want to build a new iem using Private 223 as reference. AFAIK, It is a MH334 Without CI.
Low/Mid: 33AP007 + ?ohm + White Dampers (Should have a resistor to reduce bass?)
Hi: 2389 + 0.68uf + White Dampers  (Like MH334?)


----------



## swtnate

Arski said:


> Hi there hello,
> 
> I am new here, been for a while as a reader and student, going through all the posts here. I wanted to start my personal iem for concerts. Anyways, I did my molds and 3d prints for shells and there is everything working fine. The problem I’ve got is to combine BA’s.
> 
> ...


The issue you are describing is not a problem cause by the 38.  Its inherent to the GU / GV.  If you want that extended high end shelf, you will also beed to add a single driver super tweeter or an swfk.  Also, the GU / GV series intention of design was to be plug and play.  So, in the future, imo, youd be better served ordering those drivers independently.


----------



## swtnate

swtnate said:


> The issue you are describing is not a problem cause by the 38.  Its inherent to the GU / GV.  If you want that extended high end shelf, you will also beed to add a single driver super tweeter or an swfk.  Also, the GU / GV series intention of design was to be plug and play.  So, in the future, imo, youd be better served ordering those drivers independently.


Addendum - if you arent getting ANY bass and it is just low to high mid - your ear is not completely occluded (sealed).  Get your ear sealed.  Then add a tweeter.


----------



## Arski

Thanx a lot, I tried the GU as a main and only ba driver but it has no low end, that’s why I wanted to extend it with the 38. It’s really difficult I must say;D Have you ever tried to make a setup containing ex. 38 and 2389 as a full range iem?


----------



## Arski

swtnate said:


> Addendum - if you arent getting ANY bass and it is just low to high mid - your ear is not completely occluded (sealed).  Get your ear sealed.  Then add a tweeter.


The problem was just in high end rolloff, you are right, tweeter should solve the problem, but how should I find a proper cap for let’s say: Sonion e50dt? And maybe instead of using gu, maybe 2389?? Caps values is gold here I suppose )


----------



## swtnate

Arski said:


> The problem was just in high end rolloff, you are right, tweeter should solve the problem, but how should I find a proper cap for let’s say: Sonion e50dt? And maybe instead of using gu, maybe 2389?? Caps values is gold here I suppose )


Using wbfk, like .82uf
swfk uf
2mmID / 10-12mmLength
white or grey damper at 7-8mm


----------



## swtnate

Arski said:


> Thanx a lot, I tried the GU as a main and only ba driver but it has no low end, that’s why I wanted to extend it with the 38. It’s really difficult I must say;D Have you ever tried to make a setup containing ex. 38 and 2389 as a full range iem?


Not a 38, but a 33AJ007 paired with a 2389 is magical.


----------



## Arski

swtnate said:


> Not a 38, but a 33AJ007 paired with a 2389 is magical.


I need to try this setup, ive got the single and double 2389 driver. Have you got any hint for crossing that 2 Sonion divers (2389 & 33aj007)?


----------



## Xymordos

Arski said:


> Hi there hello,
> 
> I am new here, been for a while as a reader and student, going through all the posts here. I wanted to start my personal iem for concerts. Anyways, I did my molds and 3d prints for shells and there is everything working fine. The problem I’ve got is to combine BA’s.
> 
> ...



Did you add a resistor in series after the parallel cap? Otherwise it'll low pass the tweeter too.


----------



## IEMbiker

I have build a DD with GQ. GQ as full range and DD with 100ohm. 
DD from ZSN.


----------



## arielsivan

Hi.

Does anyone have experience with the LS ECGK 61718?
It seems to be similar to bs6 (R.I.P)...
I'm looking for a suitable zobel.

I intend to build CI30120+ ECGK61718.
So I would appreciate ideas for the electrical circuit for the configuration
😊


----------



## Arski

Xymordos said:


> Did you add a resistor in series after the parallel cap? Otherwise it'll low pass the tweeter too.


That was my setup, and the LoPass affected my Knowles instead Sonion only.


----------



## swtnate

Arski said:


> I need to try this setup, ive got the single and double 2389 driver. Have you got any hint for crossing that 2 Sonion divers (2389 & 33aj007)?


4.7uf to the 2389
then an L-pad to taste. If you dont want an L-Pad, then like maybe 10-20ohm to the 33


----------



## Xymordos

IEMbiker said:


> I have build a DD with GQ. GQ as full range and DD with 100ohm.
> DD from ZSN.



Oh did you print your shell? Is this measured on the 711?


----------



## mattmatt

swtnate said:


> Not a 38, but a 33AJ007 paired with a 2389 is magical.


This is somehow like the UE TF10. Lovely combination if properly matched.


----------



## Arski

swtnate said:


> 4.7uf to the 2389
> then an L-pad to taste. If you dont want an L-Pad, then like maybe 10-20ohm to the 33


OK thank you. To be absolutely, 100% Sure (sorry for dumb question) L pad is resistor in series to lower the woofer output yup? 🙃🙃


----------



## mattmatt

IEMbiker said:


> I have build a DD with GQ. GQ as full range and DD with 100ohm.
> DD from ZSN.


looks awesome! what MSLA resin did you use for this?


----------



## IEMbiker (Aug 30, 2022)

Xymordos said:


> Oh did you print your shell? Is this measured on the 711?


Yup, 3d printed shell and measured using WM61A mic not 711.
here is the link to the shell stl file:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Y-yrrHK960COUPGpZVcEVTZBOfYAxpOD/view?usp=sharing


----------



## IEMbiker

mattmatt said:


> looks awesome! what MSLA resin did you use for this?


Thanks. I use E-shell 310 clear resin with a drop of black in 500g mix. 
The black is to give a clear appearance which reduces the yellow effect.


----------



## Aldo40

Arski said:


> OK thank you. To be absolutely, 100% Sure (sorry for dumb question) L pad is resistor in series to lower the woofer output yup? 🙃🙃


Yes resistance // maintains impedance and serial resistance varies gain


----------



## Arski

Ok, I did the 2 way with the Sonion 33aj007 and Sonion 2389. Crossover with 4,7uF on a 2389, no dampers 1,5ID tubes. The graph looks like this, what do you think I should correct for that setup?


----------



## IEMbiker

Arski said:


> Ok, I did the 2 way with the Sonion 33aj007 and Sonion 2389. Crossover with 4,7uF on a 2389, no dampers 1,5ID tubes. The graph looks like this, what do you think I should correct for that setup?


by reducing the tube length and bigger ID (2mm) of 2389, you can have better performance at the higher frequency range.


----------



## Arski

IEMbiker said:


> by reducing the tube length and bigger ID (2mm) of 2389, you can have better performance at the higher frequency range.


Thanks,I’ll try to improve that range, do you think 2mm on twitter only? Leave the woofer as it is?


----------



## IEMbiker

Arski said:


> Thanks,I’ll try to improve that range, do you think 2mm on twitter only? Leave the woofer as it is?


If you like bass then use the 2389 full range with 10 or 20 ohm and low pass the 33AJ.
tubing for 2389 ID 2mm x 11mm. white or green filter to your taste.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

IEMbiker said:


> I have build a DD with GQ. GQ as full range and DD with 100ohm.
> DD from ZSN.


which measurement standard is this bruv
is it 711 calibrated or some other mic coupler


----------



## IEMbiker

dhruvmeena96 said:


> which measurement standard is this bruv
> is it 711 calibrated or some other mic coupler


non-standard DIY measurement mic.




calibrate with an oscilloscope and sound level meter.
The mic is from Panasonic, flat respond from 20-16k.
ZEX Pro measurement comparison with 711 is almost the same just no 8k artifact peak.


----------



## prawdziwysimone

Hello guys! I've ordered IEC711 coupler and I'm going to start learning how to tune. What relatively cheap BA drivers would you guys suggest me to start the journey? Firsty i want to do my first single BA IEM of course, what is good to start with? Or some suggestion on cheap options for future 2 way system drivers so i will get all the drivers in one order


----------



## kha1id

Hi

im working on HODVTEC 31618. Rc Low pass filter or dampers work better?


----------



## swtnate

kha1id said:


> Hi
> 
> im working on HODVTEC 31618. Rc Low pass filter or dampers work better?


L-pad for volume reduction
ID tube size and length plus yellow damper position for roll off.


----------



## kha1id

swtnate said:


> L-pad for volume reduction
> ID tube size and length plus yellow damper position for roll off.


understand.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

IEMbiker said:


> I have build a DD with GQ. GQ as full range and DD with 100ohm.
> DD from ZSN.


then you need a uppermids and some bass
my suggestion is to zobel GQ and add resistor to lower its sensitivity and add yellow damper to DD


----------



## Arski

Hey, thanx for all the suggestions, I’ve finished my first stage iem, played a gig with it and I am super happy how they sound onstage. This is how they look and how they sound. 3d printed. I wanted to ask how could I improve the response? I was thinking about white damper on the fulrange 2389 cause sibilants are a tiny bit too sharp. If you got some thoughts, let me know


----------



## mattmatt

Arski said:


> Hey, thanx for all the suggestions, I’ve finished my first stage iem, played a gig with it and I am super happy how they sound onstage. This is how they look and how they sound. 3d printed. I wanted to ask how could I improve the response? I was thinking about white damper on the fulrange 2389 cause sibilants are a tiny bit too sharp. If you got some thoughts, let me know


White mid way the tube or green at the BA spout should help.


----------



## SenorChang8

I need to replace the screen to my Penon Fan. I have these spare filters, what would be the sound difference between the bigger holes and the smaller holes? 

Is there a general rule that increasing surface area exposed (more holes) will increase/decrease certain frequencies on the sound spectrum? Or the differences too minimal to make much of a difference?


----------



## arielsivan

Looking for the suitable Zobel for LS61718. It looks like a 30 ohm peak at 800 Hz.  
I intend to fit it with a CI30120 as well..


I would really appreciate your help!


----------



## theGuitarist (Sep 19, 2022)

Hello,

I have been a ghost follower of the topic for a few months to get some information for my custom IEM trial. Now I am a member and I am starting to post, of course starting with some questions 

I made my shells with PNP technique. After a few trial I got a perfect sound isolation. Drivers are GV. I tried a few damper combinations. I dont have frequency measurement tools but acoridng to my ears I always got very huge bass sound as well as strong mids but even without any damper I couldn't get nice shiny highs. It could be acceptable for music listening but my main purpose is using it as a stage monitor for my guitar playing in live gigs. Missing presence is not suitable for that purpose. I am not happy with the sound I hear while I am playing my guitar.

I compared it with some other earphones that I have such as KZ ZS10 pro, Shure SE215, Audio-technica M30x, and some others. Highs of my IEM is significantly missing compared to others. Lows and mids are pronounced. Mids are tolerable but I feel like too much bass covers up the details in sound. To increase highs I tried widening the tweeter's hole but the amount I need is not something cannot be obtained with this method I think. What could be the suggestion to balance this sound? I think reducing the bass sound will not be sufficient to get sound profile I want. Can it be adding another tweeter? Which one? Will it need crossoever? The worst part is, my ear canal is so small I can't make a third hole if I need to add another driver. I need to use the same hole with GV tweeter.

Thanks in advance for comments


----------



## swtnate

Arski said:


> Ok, I did the 2 way with the Sonion 33aj007 and Sonion 2389. Crossover with 4,7uF on a 2389, no dampers 1,5ID tubes. The graph looks like this, what do you think I should correct for that setup?


Use 3mmOD X 2mmID or if you are purchasing in the states from warnertech, #13 regular OR thin.  12mm on both.  You could go like 14mm on the 2389… white damper at like 9mm.  You will need a 1-5 ohm series resistor to lower the total output to virtually eliminate the crispiness, followed by a 3.3 or 4.7 series capacitor wired to center tap.  The 3300 requires a bit more effort to get the roll-off.  I usually add like 10 Ω resistor followed by a zobel.  By taming the impedence you will also get a slightly lower volume output but more equal push across the spectrum.  Essentially your 33 is providing the sub, and bass.  The 2389 will provide the upper mids into the 10K+.  If you want a hifi high end shelf out to say 20-30K, you have to prevent the woofer from over drawing from the passive signal.  This will depend on your source impedance to some degree.  So, thats a long way of saying, L-pad for a minus 8-10dB followed by a zobel.  Use a yellow damper at like 8mm.  Hope this helps.


----------



## swtnate

arielsivan said:


> Looking for the suitable Zobel for LS61718. It looks like a 30 ohm peak at 800 Hz.
> I intend to fit it with a CI30120 as well..
> 
> 
> I would really appreciate your help!


Most of what you find on the web regarding zobel networks regarding armatures is theoretical.  Meaning, theres no way of truly knowing the inductance of an armature due to them being HIGHLY inductive by design.  That coupled with a swooping impedance curve, you are just kinda guessing.  and then kind of not.  Someone will undoubtedly chime in with a formula or a calculator link of some sort.  even if you measure it with a meter, that inductance is being read back at a given frequency either 1000hZ or 500.  Again, this will get you “close“.  But, to get a true balance with a flat impedance and ZERO electrical phase shift, you will have to test, test, test, test.


----------



## Aldo40

.
For a fair zobel, the best way is to measure the impedance of the driver, the recorded in ZMA file and simulated the zobel in a soft like vituixcad for example.

It will be more precisely adjusted with additional measurement sessions until the desired result is achieved.

Of course this requires measuring equipment such as a DATS v3 for example or a DIY impedance JIG


----------



## theGuitarist

theGuitarist said:


> Hello,
> 
> I have been a ghost follower of the topic for a few months to get some information for my custom IEM trial. Now I am a member and I am starting to post, of course starting with some questions
> 
> ...


I decided to add another tweeter to GV. I really need some extra sound between 4khz-8khz to get brightness I want. Sonion E50DT0005/D and WBFK-30095 are my options. The graph of sonion looks better for my target. Is there anyone can advise crossover parameters for tweeter only? I want to cut the frequency below 3khz on this tweeter. Maybe I should solder it directly, I dont know. I have almost zero knowledge about crossovers parameters. Any reference link about res/cap variations and its effects would be appreciated deeply.


----------



## swtnate

Just completed a 6 driver set-up with a


theGuitarist said:


> I decided to add another tweeter to GV. I really need some extra sound between 4khz-8khz to get brightness I want. Sonion E50DT0005/D and WBFK-30095 are my options. The graph of sonion looks better for my target. Is there anyone can advise crossover parameters for tweeter only? I want to cut the frequency below 3khz on this tweeter. Maybe I should solder it directly, I dont know. I have almost zero knowledge about crossovers parameters. Any reference link about res/cap variations and its effects would be appreciated deeply.


everything inside an IEM is based on passive circuitry.  If you add one thing to your current circuit (ie the GV) it will change how the built in crossover works for the GV.  The GV is 100% a plug and play scenario, aside from tuning with damper and tube length.  One thing you could try is moving the unit closer the ear canal.


----------



## theGuitarist

swtnate said:


> Just completed a 6 driver set-up with a
> 
> everything inside an IEM is based on passive circuitry.  If you add one thing to your current circuit (ie the GV) it will change how the built in crossover works for the GV.  The GV is 100% a plug and play scenario, aside from tuning with damper and tube length.  One thing you could try is moving the unit closer the ear canal.


Thank you for reply.
I experimented some variations on tube leght. I cant measure exact lenght at the moment but currently it is less than 15 mm from driver's hole to shell's output hole end. Drivers and tubes are straight to ear canal, no bend. No damper added to get max treble.


----------



## swtnate

For those that use Trnio for 3D scanning, how in the world do you get the correct scale?  If I scan the left, then scan the right, open and trim each file, then import the left and right into the same fusion project, they BOTH are different sizes and neither are correct.  I know this is the biggest issue with photogrammetry in the past…. but, I was under the impression Trnio had solved that… anyone with experience or am I stuck buying a 3D scanner?


----------



## gregeagle (Sep 14, 2022)

Just wanted to share the  method I use for 3d printing….
Just cut off the pyramids….buff to shape… done…
Works on any resin by now!!👌 even Detax freeprint…

Cheers Greg


----------



## swtnate

gregeagle said:


> Just wanted to share the  method I use for 3d printing….
> Just cut off the pyramids….buff to shape… done…
> Works on any resin by now!!👌 even Detax freeprint…
> 
> Cheers Greg


What printer are you using? And what are your current print parameters?  I'm having a booger of time dialing in my elegoo Saturn mono 4k msla just to print the simplest of things using Pro3dure IN-R.  The IN-R is a 385 or 405nm while the freeprint is 385-388nm I believe....  Any advice would be of great use.  I've spent the better part of two days trying to get a good test print from the UV Tools application using their print exposure finder functionality.  This is quite the conundrum... lol


----------



## swtnate

Welp, I'm still lost and losing sleep and the battle.  So, gotta make it interesting... I'm placing an order for the new RAU super-tweeter tomorrow and will begin sound stage design soon for new configuration I've been brainstorming for AWHIILE. Whoever can help me figure out this Trnio? scan impressions from your iphone into a set of custom ears, will get all the data measurement information.  Both wired alone. and in multiple combninations of other other drivers, Sonion and Knowles.  It's almost a new day and I still have bone to pick with this one. LOL

@mattmatt piotrus-g can I get witness to help me please.


----------



## gregeagle

swtnate said:


> What printer are you using? And what are your current print parameters?  I'm having a booger of time dialing in my elegoo Saturn mono 4k msla just to print the simplest of things using Pro3dure IN-R.  The IN-R is a 385 or 405nm while the freeprint is 385-388nm I believe....  Any advice would be of great use.  I've spent the better part of two days trying to get a good test print from the UV Tools application using their print exposure finder functionality.  This is quite the conundrum... lol


Im using a Elegoo Mars 2 Pro, all kinds of different resins.... for clear i use Detax freeprint mould...its 405nm( 120s Base, 7 layers and 8s per layer) works great...)....Some from Resione...
have no experience in Pro3dure.....


----------



## piotrus-g (Sep 15, 2022)

swtnate said:


> Welp, I'm still lost and losing sleep and the battle.  So, gotta make it interesting... I'm placing an order for the new RAU super-tweeter tomorrow and will begin sound stage design soon for new configuration I've been brainstorming for AWHIILE. Whoever can help me figure out this Trnio? scan impressions from your iphone into a set of custom ears, will get all the data measurement information.  Both wired alone. and in multiple combninations of other other drivers, Sonion and Knowles.  It's almost a new day and I still have bone to pick with this one. LOL
> 
> @mattmatt piotrus-g can I get witness to help me please.


Not sure how I can help.
For scanning I have this video saved: 
not sure how helpful this would be for you. We are using 3Shape so scan accuracy or measurements are not really an issue.
My experience with RAU is limited.


----------



## IEMbiker

dhruvmeena96 said:


> then you need a uppermids and some bass
> my suggestion is to zobel GQ and add resistor to lower its sensitivity and add yellow damper to DD


after redo crossover for GQ. 20ohm to ED, 47ohm series 1uf cap to WBFK. DD full range series 10ohm.
Yellow Damper to DD. 

Thanks Dhruvmeena.


----------



## mattmatt

swtnate said:


> Welp, I'm still lost and losing sleep and the battle.  So, gotta make it interesting... I'm placing an order for the new RAU super-tweeter tomorrow and will begin sound stage design soon for new configuration I've been brainstorming for AWHIILE. Whoever can help me figure out this Trnio? scan impressions from your iphone into a set of custom ears, will get all the data measurement information.  Both wired alone. and in multiple combninations of other other drivers, Sonion and Knowles.  It's almost a new day and I still have bone to pick with this one. LOL
> 
> @mattmatt piotrus-g can I get witness to help me please.


The problem with regular photogrammetry, these scans don't have any type of measurement so the software would just make a point cloud data without any reference for scale. I think piotrus use pretty high end stuff. The best thing you can do is have something with an absolute size scanned beside the ear impressions so you can reference that for scaling the whole scan.


----------



## mattmatt

gregeagle said:


> Just wanted to share the  method I use for 3d printing….
> Just cut off the pyramids….buff to shape… done…
> Works on any resin by now!!👌 even Detax freeprint…
> 
> Cheers Greg


these look awesome. what scanner did you use for these?


----------



## piotrus-g

mattmatt said:


> The problem with regular photogrammetry, these scans don't have any type of measurement so the software would just make a point cloud data without any reference for scale. I think piotrus use pretty high end stuff. The best thing you can do is have something with an absolute size scanned beside the ear impressions so you can reference that for scaling the whole scan.


When you import to any respectful program it should ask you what scale do you use f.e in fusion you can choose MM, CM, M etc it will automatically create a proper dimensions. Even Windows 3D builder will ask you about the scale when importing file. 
The video I attached showed how to 3D scan, repair and adjust the scale.


----------



## mattmatt

piotrus-g said:


> When you import to any respectful program it should ask you what scale do you use f.e in fusion you can choose MM, CM, M etc it will automatically create a proper dimensions. Even Windows 3D builder will ask you about the scale when importing file.
> The video I attached showed how to 3D scan, repair and adjust the scale.


Yes, but you would still need a reference measurement from whatever you're scaling since photogrammetry softwares don't know how big the things that were scanned. So if you want to scan something, you have to know a measurement from the scanned item so you have a reference for scaling. I think it was also mentioned in the video. 

My idea of having something with known measurement scanned alongside with the impressions is for that reference when you want to scale them to size. 

This is actually a great topic. My Siemens scanner went kapoot actually few weeks ago. 🤣 

Thinking of modifying the scanner to a OpenScanner build and use the calibration item from the siemens for reference scaling. Since the camera and table holder would be in a fixed position, just having one calibration file would give me a fixed scaling factor for future scans. 

Problem is, my scan used to take 2-5 mins only and now would take me much much more time. 🥲


----------



## Aldo40

gregeagle said:


> Just wanted to share the  method I use for 3d printing….
> Just cut off the pyramids….buff to shape… done…
> Works on any resin by now!!👌 even Detax freeprint…
> 
> Cheers Greg


hello

this is the method used by detax, earsonics also


----------



## swtnate

As I look to solve scanner functionality, Im also resin testing Pro3dure IN-R clear and black transparent using an elegoo Saturn.  Its a booger to take a deep dive into this stuff.  Man, so much information to calculate.


----------



## Arski

I am also using the elegoo Saturn for 3d prints, but resins for clear and no yellowing prints are without settings for that printer, ex. Nova 3d high transparency and photo centric crystal clear. I did a lot of tests and finally gave up. Do you have some good clear resin with tested settings that works?


----------



## swtnate

Pppooo


Arski said:


> I am also using the elegoo Saturn for 3d prints, but resins for clear and no yellowing prints are without settings for that printer, ex. Nova 3d high transparency and photo centric crystal clear. I did a lot of tests and finally gave up. Do you have some good clear resin with tested settings that works?


Yes.  You have to get way into the weeds of the print parameters.  Im testing a resin from Pro3dure IN-R in both transparent and transparent black.  One main issue with yellowing in regards to clears and whites, is light intensity.  If you hit the print with a full blast light, it will probably yellow within 20 seconds.  So, you kinda have to creep up on it a little bit.  It took me SOOOOO long to figure out why I could only get base layers to print.  It comes down to two main things: retract speed and light delay or rest time.  If you keep ilight delay set at zero, per elegoo’s recommendation,  you will finally get it print something but nothing accurate or in proper color.  The reason for that is resin flow/ viscosity as the arm pushes model in and out of resin vat.  With light delay, you will allow for the resin to settle  more smoothly, along with not ripping off the next layer.  So, in comes retract speed.  By default this is at 70mm.  You want it at like 10.  This will increase the total print time but it will allow for a ton less layer lines.  Something like this:
TotalHeightMilimeter = 2

LayerHeightMilimeter = 0.05

LayerExposureSeconds = 3

BottomExposureSeconds = 30

BottomLiftHeight = 2

BottomLiftSpeed = 210

LiftHeight = 2

LiftSpeed = 210

RetractSpeed = 10

BottomLightOffDelay = 17.6

LightOffDelay = 13.6

BottomLayerCount = 5


----------



## swtnate

swtnate said:


> Pppooo
> 
> Yes.  You have to get way into the weeds of the print parameters.  Im testing a resin from Pro3dure IN-R in both transparent and transparent black.  One main issue with yellowing in regards to clears and whites, is light intensity.  If you hit the print with a full blast light, it will probably yellow within 20 seconds.  So, you kinda have to creep up on it a little bit.  It took me SOOOOO long to figure out why I could only get base layers to print.  It comes down to two main things: retract speed and light delay or rest time.  If you keep ilight delay set at zero, per elegoo’s recommendation,  you will finally get it print something but nothing accurate or in proper color.  The reason for that is resin flow/ viscosity as the arm pushes model in and out of resin vat.  With light delay, you will allow for the resin to settle  more smoothly, along with not ripping off the next layer.  So, in comes retract speed.  By default this is at 70mm.  You want it at like 10.  This will increase the total print time but it will allow for a ton less layer lines.  Something like this:
> TotalHeightMilimeter = 2
> ...


Essentially, elegoo doesnt make resins to many other parameters than hardness and quick curing.  Dental and audiology industry resins are much more viscous.  They almost always have to warmed up to around 20-25C for best performance. Other wise, be prepared clump soup and a solid hours worth of work to filter it all out.  Hope this helps.  Im no expert. 😂😂 I just like to know the why to a whole host of things.


----------



## Arski

Oh, that’s the point! I was wondering how is it possible to have the print smooth through the layers. That’s the setting for pro3dure? Or it should be the starting point for all the clear resins? And another question is can I use normal resin for ear shells but with the dreve lack 3? If it’s all covered, it should be super safe yup?


----------



## swtnate

mattmatt said:


> Yes, but you would still need a reference measurement from whatever you're scaling since photogrammetry softwares don't know how big the things that were scanned. So if you want to scan something, you have to know a measurement from the scanned item so you have a reference for scaling. I think it was also mentioned in the video.
> 
> My idea of having something with known measurement scanned alongside with the impressions is for that reference when you want to scale them to size.
> 
> ...


Correct-a-mundo my friend.  The aliasing is correct but actual size has to be defined.  so, i scan a universal IEM shell and then define the size later by making sure the canal arm holding the foam or silicone tip is 3-4mm.  With customs, I have yet to figure out how to do it or if its even possible… every scan would be different sized based on the distance between your camera and the model.  Im looking at trying the LiDAR scans.  theres a company in the states that has their customers use there iPhone to scan their ears (just the outside) And they put together a semi-custom more comfortable earphone.  so, I know there is accuracy there.  The Apple AR object capture has REAL promise if you have access to a Mac. @piotrus-g  im looking into both 3Shape and Cyfex.  But none of it does much use if I cant get an accurate and reproducible scanning process in place.


----------



## mattmatt

swtnate said:


> Correct-a-mundo my friend.  The aliasing is correct but actual size has to be defined.  so, i scan a universal IEM shell and then define the size later by making sure the canal arm holding the foam or silicone tip is 3-4mm.  With customs, I have yet to figure out how to do it or if its even possible… every scan would be different sized based on the distance between your camera and the model.  Im looking at trying the LiDAR scans.  theres a company in the states that has their customers use there iPhone to scan their ears (just the outside) And they put together a semi-custom more comfortable earphone.  so, I know there is accuracy there.  The Apple AR object capture has REAL promise if you have access to a Mac. @piotrus-g  im looking into both 3Shape and Cyfex.  But none of it does much use if I cant get an accurate and reproducible scanning process in place.


Do note that these specialized scanners are hardware and software optimized so they have their own algorithm that solves their scaling problem, can be from structured light or photogrammetry algorithms. The best thing you can do is like what I plan on doing with my broken siemens iscan. Have a fixed turntable and camera, scan something with absolute dimensions to find out your scaling factor. When you have your factor, every scan would be in proper dimension given that you don't move the distance between your camera and turntable. That's how I think most scanners work but these scanners have a partnered software so it does both compiling to a point cloud data to meshing it and scaling it to proper dimensions.


----------



## mattmatt

Cyfex makes a whole lot of sense if you produce a lot of ciems. Shaping out the impressions would be a lot quicker but I got my process fixed with meshmixer. It's a lot more time consuming but it's free. LOL. Also, these softwares rely only on what they are given. They have absolutely no idea how big the scans are.


----------



## swtnate

Arski said:


> Oh, that’s the point! I was wondering how is it possible to have the print smooth through the layers. That’s the setting for pro3dure? Or it should be the starting point for all the clear resins? And another question is can I use normal resin for ear shells but with the dreve lack 3? If it’s all covered, it should be super safe yup?


There are those in here that do.  I use generic resins for universal prototypes and small engineered components.  I have always lacquered the ear pieces.  Even the universals.  I wont use it in that capacity.  Youre essentially making a medical grade prosthetic.  Im not going to put something designed to be used for ornamental figurines in my ear.😂😂 i play it safe.  And those settings would be a starting off point if you‘re having structural issues or lack of model detail.


----------



## Aldo40

Arski said:


> I am also using the elegoo Saturn for 3d prints, but resins for clear and no yellowing prints are without settings for that printer, ex. Nova 3d high transparency and photo centric crystal clear. I did a lot of tests and finally gave up. Do you have some good clear resin with tested settings that works?


for the transparent resin the NOVA3D ultra transparency and one that remains the most clear.
it is not easy to print it needs good regulation







after of course there are resins like the dreve fototec DLP which is dearer , the detax molding freeprint and well also , there is still a small bluish effect, can be due to the optical azuran


----------



## swtnate

Arski said:


> Oh, that’s the point! I was wondering how is it possible to have the print smooth through the layers. That’s the setting for pro3dure? Or it should be the starting point for all the clear resins? And another question is can I use normal resin for ear shells but with the dreve lack 3? If it’s all covered, it should be super safe yup?





Aldo40 said:


> for the transparent resin the NOVA3D ultra transparency and one that remains the most clear.
> it is not easy to print it needs good regulation
> 
> 
> ...



blushing, especially on a machine like the Saturn that has such a large build plate, creates a TON of suction force With a full plate.  You can prevent almost all of the effect by reducing your retract speed and employing a solid light off delay.  I will post pics.  Its pretty wild actually.  The accuracy of the elegoo printer is not that of the Asiga or envisiontec.  BUT, its within the tolerances of meeting laboratory standards.  You simply have to allow the resin to settle into place before the licght fires on for the subsequent layer.


----------



## Aldo40

I own an Asiga pro 2 and a MARS 3 and the Mars 3 has nothing to be ashamed of

The tray of my pro 2 is huge and the noise of peeling layers is impressive, it’s really loud!

Staying in 0.50 per layer I really don’t see any difference, the accuracy is really similar and it is for these reasons that I hardly use my Asiga

I also don’t like Asiga’s policy regarding their chip resin bin.

I have a 1 liter bin, it is not a litre but it means that the printer disables the bin when a litre of the part has not been printed even if the bin and its FEP is still in good condition, The change of a full tank is in the 150€ for the 1 L and it is more expensive for the 5 liters which of course will last longer before it deactivates.


----------



## swtnate

Aldo40 said:


> I own an Asiga pro 2 and a MARS 3 and the Mars 3 has nothing to be ashamed of
> 
> The tray of my pro 2 is huge and the noise of peeling layers is impressive, it’s really loud!
> 
> ...


A huge plus is the heated resin tray and they have print parameters for all the major 3D resin companies.  Thats really whats your paying for.


----------



## Aldo40

swtnate said:


> A huge plus is the heated resin tray and they have print parameters for all the major 3D resin companies.  Thats really whats your paying for.


So it’s this kind of parameter that drew me to asiga but in real life it’s a bit more complicated I find, I put the files for freeprint detax for example and my print was defective, I had to use some parameters much more complex than on the march for example to succeed impressions.

Piloting via wifi is really good, the proprietary software, the tray height to release many shell at the same time.

I think I’m going to sell it, it takes up too much space and honestly I have released coins with Mars 3 with a precision that goes to Delas of my hopes.


----------



## stegeoc

Hi All, I've built a couple of hybrid iems and have been happy with them but feel a bit lost when it comes to buying DDs. BAs are so well documented but it seems virtually no DDs are branded and the prices vary wildly.  It is even rare to see any specs or graphs at all.  How do you know what is good and what to avoid?  

I'm also a bit lost when it comes to different types of venting and in testing have found very little or no difference in sound at all. 

Just playing around out of interest as I'm really happy with my GK+rab+38xm and doubt I can improve on it for my tastes


----------



## dhruvmeena96

IEMbiker said:


> after redo crossover for GQ. 20ohm to ED, 47ohm series 1uf cap to WBFK. DD full range series 10ohm.
> Yellow Damper to DD.
> 
> Thanks Dhruvmeena.


looks good but can be improved................... love the bass curve... done super nice


----------



## gregeagle

Aldo40 said:


> hello
> 
> this is the method used by detax, earsonics also


😂😂👌


----------



## piotrus-g

Aldo40 said:


> I own an Asiga pro 2 and a MARS 3 and the Mars 3 has nothing to be ashamed of
> 
> The tray of my pro 2 is huge and the noise of peeling layers is impressive, it’s really loud!
> 
> ...


Yeah that's the disadvantage of Asiga, it adds completely unnecessary costs. Rapidshape doesn't have such limits. 
Speaking with rapidshape they told me heating tray is used only for non-bio compatible materials and f.e. dreve materials will not be heated by design.


----------



## gregeagle

I use a small heat fan..... just give the Resin a quick blow in the tray....the bubbles are gone and the resin (if needed) is on temperature.... dont do it on Detax freeprint mould... it caused some fancy stuff in the Resin...


----------



## FatihEnes

hey,

I wanted to build my first DIY custom IEM for a collage project and wanted to use the internals of an existing IEM. I currently own the FiiO FH3 and the Thieaudio Legacy 3 seems tuned the same.

Is it easy to get out the internals from the Thieaudio Legacy 3 for example or is everything heavily glued? Any recommendation for a good multi driver IEM as a internal donor?


----------



## Aldo40 (Sep 21, 2022)

piotrus-g said:


> Ouais c'est l'inconvénient d'Asiga, ça rajoute des frais complètement inutiles. Rapidshape n'a pas de telles limites.
> En parlant avec rapidshape, ils m'ont dit que le plateau chauffant n'est utilisé que pour les matériaux non biocompatibles et que les matériaux fe dreve ne seront pas chauffés par conception.


Oui c'était décidément du super matos il y a quelques années avec ses inconforts, je trouve l'histoire du changement de bacs naze, c'est vraiment un point faible chez eux:froncer les sourcils2:
Earsonic chez nous ils ont la HA20+ c'est une belle machine, d'ailleurs si tu l'utilises, que pense tu de la résine clear dreve fototec DLP?
Je n'utilise que le moule Detax freeprint pour le moment, mais je trouve qu'il a des reflets violets.

J'utilise le DREVE en traditionnel qui reste parfaitement clair sans reflet de couleur, j'hésite à acheter un litre de fototec DLP.

Si elle a le même visuel que l'S IO, je suis intéressé à avoir des retours.

Merci

Aldo:clin d'œil:


----------



## Aldo40

gregeagle said:


> I use a small heat fan..... just give the Resin a quick blow in the tray....the bubbles are gone and the resin (if needed) is on temperature.... dont do it on Detax freeprint mould... it caused some fancy stuff in the Resin...


personally I leave rested the resine detax feeeprint at least 30 minutes the time the bubbles rise to the surface and then I launch the printing


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Oye bois

By the way

I have retired myself from building iem because i cant afford it 

Though you guys can throw any doubts on me i will try my level best to answer till i can

And it can include any topics

Including crossover etc ...
Trying to get active back again on headfi one last time 

Life's hard here!!


----------



## gregeagle

Aldo40 said:


> personally I leave rested the resine detax feeeprint at least 30 minutes the time the bubbles rise to the surface and then I launch the printing


now i do that too!!! after I lost 50ml of freeprint... on more basic resins also ABS like I use the small heat fan and I can print after shaking and blowing right away...


----------



## Aldo40

gregeagle said:


> now i do that too!!! after I lost 50ml of freeprint... on more basic resins also ABS like I use the small heat fan and I can print after shaking and blowing right away...


Cool


----------



## piotrus-g

Aldo40 said:


> Oui c'était décidément du super matos il y a quelques années avec ses inconforts, je trouve l'histoire du changement de bacs naze, c'est vraiment un point faible chez eux:froncer les sourcils2:
> Earsonic chez nous ils ont la HA20+ c'est une belle machine, d'ailleurs si tu l'utilises, que pense tu de la résine clear dreve fototec DLP?
> Je n'utilise que le moule Detax freeprint pour le moment, mais je trouve qu'il a des reflets violets.
> 
> ...


Dreve materials will turn yellow. Regular Clear will be almost brownish yellow after post-curring and lacquering, we switched the moment Brilliant clear was released. Brilliant clear will turn only just slight yellowish after lacquering, it's not something that's noticeable. I have no experience with Detax yet.


----------



## swtnate

piotrus-g said:


> Dreve materials will turn yellow. Regular Clear will be almost brownish yellow after post-curring and lacquering, we switched the moment Brilliant clear was released. Brilliant clear will turn only just slight yellowish after lacquering, it's not something that's noticeable. I have no experience with Detax yet.


Pro3dure IN-R clear is REALLY good too.  You just have to ramp the UV exposure And not just a full UV light.


----------



## FatihEnes

I haven't received all the materials yet, but I hope the tubes will fit .. look a bit small.


----------



## swtnate

They will fit.  just be mindful of shell thickness.


----------



## FatihEnes

swtnate said:


> They will fit.  just be mindful of shell thickness.


Thank you!

Resin should be here in couple of days. I will use 3BA drivers. 

It’s my first one


----------



## musmecca

Got a few Rab 32257's and was thinking of executing some sort of etymotic iem...something different. I read through Dhruv's 4 rab setup which seemed intriguing, but I definitely want the bass present. Can I exicute this with some of my custom shells? Do I need added bass? Ideas appreciated...


----------



## swtnate

musmecca said:


> Got a few Rab 32257's and was thinking of executing some sort of etymotic iem...something different. I read through Dhruv's 4 rab setup which seemed intriguing, but I definitely want the bass present. Can I exicute this with some of my custom shells? Do I need added bass? Ideas appreciated...


Depends on the overhead your wanting. If you need a ton, youll need a dual sub or a strong DD.  If you dont, the. The 4 RAB’s should be fine.  However, if you want the extended high shelf, youll beed to look at the the tweeter as well.


----------



## FatihEnes

Does anyone know where I can find a tube piece like this?


----------



## kha1id

OK.

I made a pair of HODVTEC 31618 + ED 29689
The 31618 + 15/20/24R and 2 Yellow Dampers generate very powerful bass/subbass but it could also hurt your ears.
I can feel that pulse from 31618 making myself so tired when listening.

When I put a 30R on it with 1 yellow damper the bass reduce but freq after 700hz started mess things up....

Very confusing driver......


----------



## mattmatt

FatihEnes said:


> Does anyone know where I can find a tube piece like this?


Hi, for what are you gonna use this for? I haven't seem something similar actually.


----------



## FatihEnes

mattmatt said:


> Hi, for what are you gonna use this for? I haven't seem something similar actually.


I’ve 3 BA drivers to install but only 2 tubes will probably fit into the nozzle.

So I wanted to use one tube for 2 drivers stacked together. I guess stretching the tube with a heat gun and tweezers will do the job.

I will make the shells tomorrow. Still don’t know what tube sizes to use. I’ve ordered 2x3 mm and 1x2 mm tubes.


----------



## AMerePerson

FatihEnes said:


> I’ve 3 BA drivers to install but only 2 tubes will probably fit into the nozzle.
> 
> So I wanted to use one tube for 2 drivers stacked together. I guess stretching the tube with a heat gun and tweezers will do the job.
> 
> I will make the shells tomorrow. Still don’t know what tube sizes to use. I’ve ordered 2x3 mm and 1x2 mm tubes.


Yeah when building my Finale 2, I used a heat gun and tweezers to stretch the tube around the whole BA since the drivers for that build don't have spouts.


----------



## FatihEnes

AMerePerson said:


> Yeah when building my Finale 2, I used a heat gun and tweezers to stretch the tube around the whole BA since the drivers for that build don't have spouts.



I’m using the drivers from the KZ AS06.
I wanted to go the budget way for the first DIY project and no wiring needed.

If the tubes are 100% sealed with the drivers, can I fill the shell‘s with resin? 

Looks like the biggest driver has a hole on the back.


----------



## AMerePerson

FatihEnes said:


> I’m using the drivers from the KZ AS06.
> I wanted to go the budget way for the first DIY project and no wiring needed.
> 
> If the tubes are 100% sealed with the drivers, can I fill the shell‘s with resin?
> ...


Obviously you don’t want resin getting into the tubes. 

Filling the shell completely is fine, but blocking the port on the big driver will affect bass response. I’d recommend taping off that hole first to prevent resin ingress.


----------



## Aldo40

The center solder plug of 22955 is open so you cannot fill with resin otherwise you will drown the driver.

The resin filling is valid when all the drivers are sealed or then arrange you to position the driver hole towards the faceplate and you can partially fill


----------



## FatihEnes

AMerePerson said:


> Obviously you don’t want resin getting into the tubes.
> 
> Filling the shell completely is fine, but blocking the port on the big driver will affect bass response. I’d recommend taping off that hole first to prevent resin ingress.





Aldo40 said:


> The center solder plug of 22955 is open so you cannot fill with resin otherwise you will drown the driver.
> 
> The resin filling is valid when all the drivers are sealed or then arrange you to position the driver hole towards the faceplate and you can partially fill



Awesome, thank you guys 🙏🏽


----------



## musmecca

FatihEnes said:


> I’m using the drivers from the KZ AS06.
> I wanted to go the budget way for the first DIY project and no wiring needed.
> 
> If the tubes are 100% sealed with the drivers, can I fill the shell‘s with resin?
> ...


I never fill with resin, as accidents happen. If you ever need acces to connections or drivers that go out, you're screwed as you can't get to anything. I don't think it adds anything sonically either....


----------



## FatihEnes

musmecca said:


> I never fill with resin, as accidents happen. If you ever need acces to connections or drivers that go out, you're screwed as you can't get to anything. I don't think it adds anything sonically either....



It would’ve been easier because of the face plate. That is, I guess, the only benefit 😅

I couldn’t find face plates to buy, so I will make one out of resin.


----------



## vanhalen26 (Sep 28, 2022)

My faceplate has come loose from my iems.  What glue is best for sealing back up?

I just want to do light dabs around the edge as the iem itself is tightly packed and I don’t want to damage anything as it’s working perfectly otherwise.


----------



## Aldo40 (Sep 28, 2022)

For filling the best solution is the optical silicone, one can reshell without damaging the drivers.

 This provides better sound insulation and keeps the drivers and electronics in place.
 Is as transparent as resin if you take care of dosage and evaporation of bubbles


----------



## vanhalen26

Aldo40 said:


> For filling the best solution is the optical silicone, one can reshell without damaging the drivers.
> 
> This provides better sound insulation and keeps the drivers and electronics in place.
> Is as transparent as resin if you take care of dosage and evaporation of bubbles


Thanks.  It’s just the faceplate - I need to reseal it on a u12t.  Crazy glue probably works but I assume there is something better that I’m just not aware of but is commonly used by many of you.

So I’m dealing vs filling.


----------



## musmecca

vanhalen26 said:


> Thanks.  It’s just the faceplate - I need to reseal it on a u12t.  Crazy glue probably works but I assume there is something better that I’m just not aware of but is commonly used by many of you.
> 
> So I’m dealing vs filling.


Don't use crazy glue as it can create a haze...use bondic or photoplast faceplate uv adhesive....


----------



## musmecca

Couple of last weeks builds...yellow is gv plus ci, blue is sonion 33, 3389, and dtec diffuse. Purple is rab w only 5 mm tube...it's in the canal w a ci running diffuse. Will post graphs and more details


----------



## swtnate

vanhalen26 said:


> Thanks.  It’s just the faceplate - I need to reseal it on a u12t.  Crazy glue probably works but I assume there is something better that I’m just not aware of but is commonly used by many of you.
> 
> So I’m dealing vs filling.


Use loctite glass glue.  There is no blooming And crystal clear.


----------



## vanhalen26

musmecca said:


> Don't use crazy glue as it can create a haze...use bondic or photoplast faceplate uv adhesive....


Thanks.  I looked at the bondic and I like the applicator - it will make it easy to apply a very small amount precisely where I want it.  However, when I seal it up no part that has the glue will be visible, it will all be on the underside so I won’t be able to apply UV light.  I’ll attach a picture so you can see what I mean.  

Without the UV being able to reach the portion with the glue once I close up, will it still set properly without the UV?  I’m guessing a UV sealant doesn’t work in this scenario.


----------



## rantng

vanhalen26 said:


> Thanks.  I looked at the bondic and I like the applicator - it will make it easy to apply a very small amount precisely where I want it.  However, when I seal it up no part that has the glue will be visible, it will all be on the underside so I won’t be able to apply UV light.  I’ll attach a picture so you can see what I mean.
> 
> Without the UV being able to reach the portion with the glue once I close up, will it still set properly without the UV?  I’m guessing a UV sealant doesn’t work in this scenario.


Bondic/UV sealant would not work as it will not cure unless it is exposed to the UV light. A very light application of loctite should do the trick although any excess wouldn’t look clean. If it is still under warranty you could just send it in for repair. Even then 64 Audio should be able to help you out.


----------



## vanhalen26

rantng said:


> Bondic/UV sealant would not work as it will not cure unless it is exposed to the UV light. A very light application of loctite should do the trick although any excess wouldn’t look clean. If it is still under warranty you could just send it in for repair. Even then 64 Audio should be able to help you out.


Sorry for being a pain in the arse, I appreciate the help.  There were tons of Loctites.  What kind do you think is comparable to how they are originally sealed?

I have sent a note asking what to use to 64 audio, I anticipate they’ll suggest sending in for repair.  Seems a little excessive- looks like $200 plus shipping and it really just needs some carefully placed glue, I just need the right type.


----------



## mattmatt

musmecca said:


> Couple of last weeks builds...yellow is gv plus ci, blue is sonion 33, 3389, and dtec diffuse. Purple is rab w only 5 mm tube...it's in the canal w a ci running diffuse. Will post graphs and more details


My dude, looking good! Did you use uv resin for the faceplates?


----------



## musmecca

mattmatt said:


> My dude, looking good! Did you use uv resin for the faceplates?


Actually I'm not that good! I use stabilized wood or knife/gun handle blanks from ebay. I cut to size, sometimes bookmatching. I'll provisionally glue on then trim to size using my Dremel or bench sander. I'll disassemble, install my components, then finish. I always sand w 320, fill face w laq 3, sand again, then re dip. I wish I knew how to get those space galaxy faces some can get!


----------



## stegeoc

" then re dip"..  Can you elaborate on your dipping process?  I've only brushed on the lack 3, though my results aren't normally that good.  Do you have several bottles of Lack 3 emptied into a bigger dipping bottle or do you somehow pour the lack 3 over the shell (and collect it in another jar)?

I'd love to find a way of doing it without the brush, but with shipping it is very expensive stuff


----------



## musmecca

stegeoc said:


> " then re dip"..  Can you elaborate on your dipping process?  I've only brushed on the lack 3, though my results aren't normally that good.  Do you have several bottles of Lack 3 emptied into a bigger dipping bottle or do you somehow pour the lack 3 over the shell (and collect it in another jar)?
> 
> I'd love to find a way of doing it without the brush, but with shipping it is very expensive stuff


The easiest method is to seal all tubes and connectors...don't want anything in those. Sand iem completely then clean thoroughly w alcohol. Don't worry if iem looks hazy. I pour my lac3 into a small shot glass. I attach an alligator clip to the iem then completely dio/rotate. Shake off excess and drips. The iem then goes into my rotary motor for min of 5 minutes....this allows laq3 to flow evenly and bubbles to dissipate..its ok to pop them. Then into the light for about 2 minutes, rotating mid way. I have pics at home but am traveling so can't access them.


----------



## musmecca (Sep 29, 2022)

stegeoc said:


> " then re dip"..  Can you elaborate on your dipping process?  I've only brushed on the lack 3, though my results aren't normally that good.  Do you have several bottles of Lack 3 emptied into a bigger dipping bottle or do you somehow pour the lack 3 over the shell (and collect it in another jar)?
> 
> I'd love to find a way of doing it without the brush, but with shipping it is very expensive stuff


The easiest method is to seal all tubes and connectors...don't want anything in those. Sand iem completely then clean thoroughly w alcohol. Don't worry if iem looks hazy. I pour my lac3 into a small shot glass. I attach an alligator clip to the iem then completely dip/rotate. Shake off excess and drips. The iem then goes into my rotary motor for min of 5 minutes....this allows laq3 to flow evenly and bubbles to dissipate..its ok to pop them. Then into the light for about 2 minutes, rotating mid way. I have pics at home but am traveling so can't access them.

Edit..found a few pics of sealed and sanded iem...I use aluminum tape to seal....toothpicks. y tubes...makes a great place to handle iem.


----------



## vanhalen26

vanhalen26 said:


> Thanks.  I looked at the bondic and I like the applicator - it will make it easy to apply a very small amount precisely where I want it.  However, when I seal it up no part that has the glue will be visible, it will all be on the underside so I won’t be able to apply UV light.  I’ll attach a picture so you can see what I mean.
> 
> Without the UV being able to reach the portion with the glue once I close up, will it still set properly without the UV?  I’m guessing a UV sealant doesn’t work in this scenario.


Oh well, 64 audio didn’t have a glue recommendation and suggested I ship in for repair - $200.  I’m not in the US so that may add customs and shipping costs too.  Seems like a lot for a dab of glue.


----------



## swtnate

swtnate said:


> Use loctite glass glue.  There is no blooming And crystal clear.





vanhalen26 said:


> Thanks.  I looked at the bondic and I like the applicator - it will make it easy to apply a very small amount precisely where I want it.  However, when I seal it up no part that has the glue will be visible, it will all be on the underside so I won’t be able to apply UV light.  I’ll attach a picture so you can see what I mean.
> 
> Without the UV being able to reach the portion with the glue once I close up, will it still set properly without the UV?  I’m guessing a UV sealant doesn’t work in this scenario.


Use loctite glass glue.  Clean up the efges with a q-tip dipped in acetone.


----------



## swtnate

Try airbrushing. It will change your world.


----------



## vanhalen26

swtnate said:


> Use loctite glass glue.  Clean up the efges with a q-tip dipped in acetone.


Thank you!!


----------



## mattmatt

swtnate said:


> Try airbrushing. It will change your world.


----------



## stegeoc

musmecca said:


> The easiest method is to seal all tubes and connectors...don't want anything in those. Sand iem completely then clean thoroughly w alcohol. Don't worry if iem looks hazy. I pour my lac3 into a small shot glass. I attach an alligator clip to the iem then completely dip/rotate. Shake off excess and drips. The iem then goes into my rotary motor for min of 5 minutes....this allows laq3 to flow evenly and bubbles to dissipate..its ok to pop them. Then into the light for about 2 minutes, rotating mid way. I have pics at home but am traveling so can't access them.
> 
> Edit..found a few pics of sealed and sanded iem...I use aluminum tape to seal....toothpicks. y tubes...makes a great place to handle iem.


Thanks!  I'd definitely like to give this a try (or airbrushing if I can figure that out).  How much Lack 3 do you have in your shot glass?  Each bottle is only 20ml, so I guess you need a few?


----------



## musmecca

stegeoc said:


> Thanks!  I'd definitely like to give this a try (or airbrushing if I can figure that out).  How much Lack 3 do you have in your shot glass?  Each bottle is only 20ml, so I guess you need a few?


I have the small container. Once in the shot glass, angle the glass at 45 degrees and spin your iem. 98% runs off back into the glass. I simply use a funnel to put it back in the container...it can be reused.


----------



## swtnate

musmecca said:


> I have the small container. Once in the shot glass, angle the glass at 45 degrees and spin your iem. 98% runs off back into the glass. I simply use a funnel to put it back in the container...it can be reused.


I would recommend keeping clean material in one container and not mixing together material you have dipped into.  Cross contamination is the number 1 reason for product control issues.


----------



## stegeoc

swtnate said:


> I would recommend keeping clean material in one container and not mixing together material you have dipped into.  Cross contamination is the number 1 reason for product control issues.


Can lacquer be filtered like resins to get rid of any bits and pieces?  I think my lack 3 bottle already has some cured bits in it somehow.  I think when I apply it I use a bright light which may have some uv in it.  Probably not a good idea


----------



## stegeoc

musmecca said:


> I have the small container. Once in the shot glass, angle the glass at 45 degrees and spin your iem. 98% runs off back into the glass. I simply use a funnel to put it back in the container...it can be reused.


That sounds promising.  I'll give this a go on my next pair.  Thanks


----------



## swtnate

stegeoc said:


> Can lacquer be filtered like resins to get rid of any bits and pieces?  I think my lack 3 bottle already has some cured bits in it somehow.  I think when I apply it I use a bright light which may have some uv in it.  Probably not a good idea


Not really.  What your concern is with lacquer is trace materials (dust, lint, minuscule amounts of hand oils, etc) will build up over time.  Also, the more exposure the lacquer is given to the air, the solvents begin to evaporate and then bubbles will become ever present.  Detax goes so far as to recommending DISPOSAL of unused lacquer after dipping the shell.  With air brushing, you can add very small amounts and while you lose material from atomization, theres no worry of cross contamination as ling as you keep the gun cleaned with toluene and put a cap on the cup.


----------



## swtnate

Also, fwiw, I personally would never dip an IEM shell with electronics and tubes installed.  Seems like undue risk for what assuredly will one day be a complete loss.


----------



## IEMbiker (Oct 1, 2022)

Repurpose my AS12 BA to make this 3BA deep fit IEM.
BA: Ci & Ed & 30012.
tubing 3 to 1.
CI-100ohm with foam filter at inside BA nozzle.
ED-47ohm with green filter front of BA nozzle.
30012- series 5 ohm series 2.2uF, white filter.  

KZ BA sound not bad, DD like bass, good vocal, nice treble extension, and wide sound stages.


----------



## stegeoc

swtnate said:


> Also, fwiw, I personally would never dip an IEM shell with electronics and tubes installed.  Seems like undue risk for what assuredly will one day be a complete loss.


Can you airbrush the Lack 3 directly, or you need to use the detax shellac instead?  And would you need to thin the Lack 3?   I am tempted


----------



## mattmatt

stegeoc said:


> Can you airbrush the Lack 3 directly, or you need to use the detax shellac instead?  And would you need to thin the Lack 3?   I am tempted


I thin mine with something else but you can use it directly but they are very costly compared to doing it by brush.


----------



## barato

Are there sources for high performance dynamic drivers?


----------



## HAMS

Hi i'm curious how etymotic's IEMs has similar FR with different drivers and same long tube nozzle? are the nozzle actually identical or close across their IEM?


----------



## stegeoc

mattmatt said:


> I thin mine with something else but you can use it directly but they are very costly compared to doing it by brush.


Well I've ordered a cheap airbrush so will have a go soon if it works.  Not sure what to expect at the moment, it is something new to play with though, which is nice.  I only make for myself so not too concerned about using a bit extra but a bit worried that my Lack 3 is already a bit dirty and that could make dipping less than ideal.

What do you mix yours with?  Would you recommend mixing?


----------



## stegeoc

barato said:


> Are there sources for high performance dynamic drivers?


I'm curious about this too.  I've bought randomly on AliExpress but you really can't tell what you're buying and you sometimes see what seems to be the same thing for very different prices from different sellers


----------



## stegeoc (Oct 3, 2022)

I was wondering what to build and thought I’d try something simple like the Savant/Finale. With just two small BAs I wasn’t expecting much at the bottom end and even designed the shell with a DD holder and extra tube so I could add some extra bass once disappointed.

Was really surprised though and they sound good and full bodied without any extra help. Very clear and good sounding bass too! I think this is the ‘Savant Pro’ (ED+2354) and is by far my cheapest (and maybe even easiest) build so far.  A good recommendation for any beginners out there.

Still needs lacquering but I’m enjoying it naked at the moment.  2354 has 22R in series and Green damper near the exit.  ED has Orange damper about 4mm from exit.


----------



## musmecca

mattmatt said:


> I thin mine with something else but you can use it directly but they are very costly compared to doing it by brush.


Do you use toluene or alcohol? I have a spray rig I haven't gotten around to setting up, so expect questions!


----------



## FatihEnes

Is there a huge difference between pvc and silicone tubes ?


----------



## mattmatt

musmecca said:


> Do you use toluene or alcohol? I have a spray rig I haven't gotten around to setting up, so expect questions!


I don't use toluene or alcohol with mine, sadly it's a developed process in the lab that I cannot share. But you can still use it straight out of the bottle.


----------



## FatihEnes

Sorry for so many questions. I figured out that silicone tubes can’t be extended/stretched. The nozzles of the drivers are squeezed between the tube, is this ok, or will this effect the sound? 

I’ve three drivers and I can only fit a 3 mm and 2 mm tube through the nozzle of the shell. So combining the mid and high-mid driver is the only option.


----------



## stegeoc

FatihEnes said:


> Sorry for so many questions. I figured out that silicone tubes can’t be extended/stretched. The nozzles of the drivers are squeezed between the tube, is this ok, or will this effect the sound?
> 
> I’ve three drivers and I can only fit a 3 mm and 2 mm tube through the nozzle of the shell. So combining the mid and high-mid driver is the only option.


Looks ok to me.  Be careful that you have it air tight though especially in the area between the spouts


----------



## FatihEnes

stegeoc said:


> Looks ok to me.  Be careful that you have it air tight though especially in the area between the spouts


Thank you!

I would prefer three individual 2 mm tubes, but there is absolutely no room :/


----------



## stegeoc

FatihEnes said:


> Thank you!
> 
> I would prefer three individual 2 mm tubes, but there is absolutely no room :/


When you say 2mm, do you mean inside diameter or outside?  The 2mm ID tubes are about 3mm OD.  The most common dampers are 2.1mm which fit nicely in them.  You probably wouldn't want to use a 2mm OD tube (1mm ID) for your mid/treble as you'd lose some of the top end


----------



## FatihEnes

stegeoc said:


> When you say 2mm, do you mean inside diameter or outside?  The 2mm ID tubes are about 3mm OD.  The most common dampers are 2.1mm which fit nicely in them.  You probably wouldn't want to use a 2mm OD tube (1mm ID) for your mid/treble as you'd lose some of the top end



I’m using 2 mm OD, 1 mm ID for the bass driver and 3 mm OD, 2 mm ID for the other two combined drivers .

I don’t use dampers. The drivers are from a KZ AS06 and the tube sizes are nearly identical with the 3d printed driver housing. 

To be honest, it doesn’t have to be perfect, it is for a collage project. 

I will do another pair later with more time and knowledge.


----------



## stegeoc

FatihEnes said:


> I’m using 2 mm OD, 1 mm ID for the bass driver and 3 mm OD, 2 mm ID for the other two combined drivers .
> 
> I don’t use dampers. The drivers are from a KZ AS06 and the tube sizes are nearly identical with the 3d printed driver housing.
> 
> ...


Sounds good.  Hope it goes well.  There is so much info in this forum it will keep you going for many builds to come


----------



## swtnate (Oct 5, 2022)

musmecca said:


> Do you use toluene or alcohol? I have a spray rig I haven't gotten around to setting up, so expect questions!


Airbrushing lacquer is quite easy.  I use an iwata with a .5 nozzle.  Use a low enough air pressure to atomize the liquid.  MAKE SURE you use wither a full face respirator.  Methacrylate is NO JOKE.  Also, be sure you have really good air flow.  Never thin with solvents.  I would get some disposable pipettes for filling the brush without overuse.  Practice on some flat pieces of faceplates, or any spare blanks you might have laying around.  I tend to have “unusable” opaque and/or transparent custom shells if I didnt nail the color blend or poured resin without letting de-gas under moderate heat.


----------



## musmecca

swtnate said:


> Airbrushing lacquer is quite easy.  I use an iwata with a .5 nozzle.  Use a low enough air pressure to atomize the liquid.  MAKE SURE you use wither a full face respirator.  Methacrylate is NO JOKE.  Also, be sure you have really good air flow.  Never thin with solvents.  I would get some disposable pipettes for filling the brush without overuse.  Practice on some flat pieces of faceplates, or any spare blanks you might have laying around.  I tend to have “unusable” opaque and/or transparent custom shells if I didnt nail the color blend or poured resin without letting de-gas under moderate heat.


All good tips. I'll get my rig set up then reach out. Do you let it sit on the shell to flow out before uv curing like we do with brush/ dip? How do you clean your tip?


----------



## mattmatt

musmecca said:


> All good tips. I'll get my rig set up then reach out. Do you let it sit on the shell to flow out before uv curing like we do with brush/ dip? How do you clean your tip?


Yep you still need to turn it but it takes a lot less time to level out especially when you spray it perfectly flat. Sometimes, i don't even have to turn it before curing and just expose it but of course, while still turning. 

Spray it lightly first. Just mist it a bit then spray it with a heavier coat. The misting helps it to flow more evenly.


----------



## swtnate

mattmatt said:


> Yep you still need to turn it but it takes a lot less time to level out especially when you spray it perfectly flat. Sometimes, i don't even have to turn it before curing and just expose it but of course, while still turning.
> 
> Spray it lightly first. Just mist it a bit then spray it with a heavier coat. The misting helps it to flow more evenly.


Some lacquers work out better than others. ANY of the Detax Shellac and Pro3dure L1 spray like a dream.  A couple dreve lacquers gave me issues.  However, Lack3 was not one of them.  It sprays out just fine.

* remember, detax shellac in colors requires nitrogen curing/ oxygen free.


----------



## musmecca

swtnate said:


> Some lacquers work out better than others. ANY of the Detax Shellac and Pro3dure L1 spray like a dream.  A couple dreve lacquers gave me issues.  However, Lack3 was not one of them.  It sprays out just fine.
> 
> * remember, detax shellac in colors requires nitrogen curing/ oxygen free.


You bring up a good question about detax shellac in colors....do you guys ever add colorant to lac 3? I'd want to final coat in clear but can you get different effects w colorants?


----------



## mattmatt

musmecca said:


> You bring up a good question about detax shellac in colors....do you guys ever add colorant to lac 3? I'd want to final coat in clear but can you get different effects w colorants?


Never colored my lacquers. I always get my effects with the shell resin.


----------



## swtnate

musmecca said:


> You bring up a good question about detax shellac in colors....do you guys ever add colorant to lac 3? I'd want to final coat in clear but can you get different effects w colorants?


Long of the short of it… no.  Your opaque colors with detax are great because there is a bit more flexibility as there are more RTU options.  All colors are mixable with each other.

For transparent shells, I mix that in resin as it is easier to prevent the potential amber effects/ UV burn.


----------



## swtnate

swtnate said:


> Long of the short of it… no.  Your opaque colors with detax are great because there is a bit more flexibility as there are more RTU options.  All colors are mixable with each other.
> 
> For transparent shells, I mix that in resin as it is easier to prevent the potential amber effects/ UV burn.


FWIW - make sure you have a gram scale to mix your colors together by weight to insure you can reproduce them in the future


----------



## FatihEnes

Thank you guys for all the help. My first set, they are not perfect and resin wasn’t the best choice for the shell, but I’m still learning.


----------



## barato (Oct 7, 2022)

What is the alternative to resin for a CIEM?

Assuming something soft, couldn't you make just a custom tip from ear molds to use with any UIEM or would this be inferior to real CIEM?

....Been wondering about making CIEM, but not a fan of BAs, so would be cool just have custom tip to use with any DD IEM if that is possible.

woops just seeing now custom tips are already a thing, should've searched it... anyone here tried making them themselves?


----------



## swtnate

barato said:


> What is the alternative to resin for a CIEM?
> 
> Assuming something soft, couldn't you make just a custom tip from ear molds to use with any UIEM or would this be inferior to real CIEM?
> 
> ...


There was a company out of England that was doing it.  Sensaphonics is the certified custom silicone sleeve for Shure universals.  The main issue you have to be concerned about is effecting the overall soundstage.  Also, you will not get the canal depth that comes with a traditional custom due to the shorter IEM canal arm.  The price of the Shure universals plus a Sensaphonics sleeve, you could either purchase a true custom set with a more tailored FR OR buiild your own.  But, honestly building one set of custom IEMs isnt really financially beneficial.  If you plan to build out additional sets, then its worth it to build. Just my humble opinion. 😂😂 @mattmatt might have something up his “sleeve”… pun intended 😂😂😂


----------



## mattmatt

swtnate said:


> There was a company out of England that was doing it.  Sensaphonics is the certified custom silicone sleeve for Shure universals.  The main issue you have to be concerned about is effecting the overall soundstage.  Also, you will not get the canal depth that comes with a traditional custom due to the shorter IEM canal arm.  The price of the Shure universals plus a Sensaphonics sleeve, you could either purchase a true custom set with a more tailored FR OR buiild your own.  But, honestly building one set of custom IEMs isnt really financially beneficial.  If you plan to build out additional sets, then its worth it to build. Just my humble opinion. 😂😂 @mattmatt might have something up his “sleeve”… pun intended 😂😂😂


I know the way how to build one but it needs more equipment for easier manufacturing. 3D scanning and 3D printing.


----------



## swtnate

mattmatt said:


> I know the way how to build one but it needs more equipment for easier manufacturing. 3D scanning and 3D printing.


you never disappoint! lol one of these days you and I will collaborate on a project and change the game.  Or, at the very least, make something "memorable" lol


----------



## mattmatt

swtnate said:


> you never disappoint! lol one of these days you and I will collaborate on a project and change the game.  Or, at the very least, make something "memorable" lol


My inbox is always one click away for you my man!


----------



## swtnate

mattmatt said:


> My inbox is always one click away for you my man!


Imma bout to flood you with project ideas. lol


----------



## swtnate

mattmatt said:


> My inbox is always one click away for you my man!


only caveat, we have to internationally copyright our IP like the Godfather @piotrus-g


----------



## Xymordos

Made a quick set for my dad so he can use while travelling. 12 drivers - 2x SWFK 31736, 4x RAB32063, 2x 37AP015
Face plate is laser etched wood with laser cut shells. 

Does seem like you need a lot more bass for BA drivers to match the feeling of bass produced by a dynamic driver.


----------



## musmecca

Xymordos said:


> Made a quick set for my dad so he can use while travelling. 12 drivers - 2x SWFK 31736, 4x RAB32063, 2x 37AP015
> Face plate is laser etched wood with laser cut shells.
> 
> Does seem like you need a lot more bass for BA drivers to match the feeling of bass produced by a dynamic driver.


Excellent work as always..and yes I agree about the bass. I always seem to be seeking more from my builds.


----------



## swtnate

Xymordos said:


> Made a quick set for my dad so he can use while travelling. 12 drivers - 2x SWFK 31736, 4x RAB32063, 2x 37AP015
> Face plate is laser etched wood with laser cut shells.
> 
> Does seem like you need a lot more bass for BA drivers to match the feeling of bass produced by a dynamic driver.


The RAB seems to give me the same fits as well.  I can never get a substantial extended high end shelf when pairing RAB32257 with SWFK, TWFK, or WBFK.  It's like it just disappears.  Strange phenomenon.  I'm really jonesing for the new super tweeter from knowles.  but the production ramp up is crazy slow and most suppliers are requiring 100 piece orders here in the states.  Unless you are already purchasing direct.  I can't buy 100 drivers just because Jerry Harvey made an IEM with the driver in what could only be a settlement of sorts from the Bellsing lawsuit that Knowles recently just won. haha.  Anyone have experience with the RAU?


----------



## Xymordos

swtnate said:


> The RAB seems to give me the same fits as well.  I can never get a substantial extended high end shelf when pairing RAB32257 with SWFK, TWFK, or WBFK.  It's like it just disappears.  Strange phenomenon.  I'm really jonesing for the new super tweeter from knowles.  but the production ramp up is crazy slow and most suppliers are requiring 100 piece orders here in the states.  Unless you are already purchasing direct.  I can't buy 100 drivers just because Jerry Harvey made an IEM with the driver in what could only be a settlement of sorts from the Bellsing lawsuit that Knowles recently just won. haha.  Anyone have experience with the RAU?



If I remove the damper on the SWFK it'll look better on the graph, but that sounds like too much treble for my ears, so I opted for less treble.


----------



## TOBIJampar (Oct 9, 2022)

I was out of the hobby for quite some while, but have components lying around to build another set. But I'm not sure if my lack 3 is enough.
Now that mcear is closed do you know of any sources in EU, that don't require having a business?


----------



## swtnate

TOBIJampar said:


> I was out of the hobby for quite some while, but have components lying around to build another set. But I'm not sure if my lack 3 is enough.
> Now that mcear is closed do you know of any sources in EU, that don't require having a business?


You can always reach out to Pro3dure Germany or Dreve Germany.  Pro3dure is a little smaller manufacturer but their products are really well made.  You might have more luck with them.


----------



## slakoth453

TOBIJampar said:


> I was out of the hobby for quite some while, but have components lying around to build another set. But I'm not sure if my lack 3 is enough.
> Now that mcear is closed do you know of any sources in EU, that don't require having a business?


Can confirm pro3dure let me order from them without a business. Just send them an email, L-1 is what you want.


----------



## musmecca

Quick question for those of you that have used the Sonion EST65. I am only wanting it to cover 5kHZ and up and my calculator says use 2.2UF.....anyone used these and verify the number? I see .47 used but that seems to allow 10Khz and up.  Any other issues with these guys?


----------



## swtnate

musmecca said:


> Quick question for those of you that have used the Sonion EST65. I am only wanting it to cover 5kHZ and up and my calculator says use 2.2UF.....anyone used these and verify the number? I see .47 used but that seems to allow 10Khz and up.  Any other issues with these guys?


there will be a slow creep up to your preferred frequency.  Its all a matter of taste Vs that of calculation.  Its also part of a passive network.  Add one thing the drivers will respond one way.  Add another or take away, more variation in performance will ensue.  Of you are seeking to use it in a circuit, connect all drivers you are hoping to use.  Then, connect that to your most commonly used audio source.  Next, test FR of each driver followed by testing the impedance of driver.  This is why so many in this forum utilize zobel networks.  This will act to level the output of the drivers.  In traditional audio speaker construction, one would use a zobel attached to subwoofer.  More often than not, I will use them there as well.  However, you can stabilize a tweeter response just the same.  In order for the zobel to perform properly as an impedance equalization, you must calculate the parameters in circuit.  If your values are not correct, there will be an electrical phase shift introduced that you will have to contend with.


----------



## Aldo40

musmecca said:


> Quick question for those of you that have used the Sonion EST65. I am only wanting it to cover 5kHZ and up and my calculator says use 2.2UF.....anyone used these and verify the number? I see .47 used but that seems to allow 10Khz and up.  Any other issues with these guys?


2.2µf it's good for EST, the bump at 2.5khz is difficult to remove even with 0.47


----------



## musmecca

swtnate said:


> there will be a slow creep up to your preferred frequency.  Its all a matter of taste Vs that of calculation.  Its also part of a passive network.  Add one thing the drivers will respond one way.  Add another or take away, more variation in performance will ensue.  Of you are seeking to use it in a circuit, connect all drivers you are hoping to use.  Then, connect that to your most commonly used audio source.  Next, test FR of each driver followed by testing the impedance of driver.  This is why so many in this forum utilize zobel networks.  This will act to level the output of the drivers.  In traditional audio speaker construction, one would use a zobel attached to subwoofer.  More often than not, I will use them there as well.  However, you can stabilize a tweeter response just the same.  In order for the zobel to perform properly as an impedance equalization, you must calculate the parameters in circuit.  If your values are not correct, there will be an electrical phase shift introduced that you will have to contend with.


Thanks...unfortunately I don't have an impedance rig. I'm proposing 2 ci's, 1 twfk, and the e65 per side...I'm drawing it out currently, but is a knockoff of piotrus-g's scary...I am apparently a bass-hog! As a cheap and dirty FR/Cap calculation, I use http://sim.okawa-denshi.jp/en/CRtool.php to calculate. I left the ohms of the EST65 at 1 as I understand it's gonna change as frequency changes....too simplistic?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Dont use 





musmecca said:


> Thanks...unfortunately I don't have an impedance rig. I'm proposing 2 ci's, 1 twfk, and the e65 per side...I'm drawing it out currently, but is a knockoff of piotrus-g's scary...I am apparently a bass-hog! As a cheap and dirty FR/Cap calculation, I use http://sim.okawa-denshi.jp/en/CRtool.php to calculate. I left the ohms of the EST65 at 1 as I understand it's gonna change as frequency changes....too simplistic?


TwFK


It sucks

Use dwfk if you have seperate twooters


----------



## swtnate

musmecca said:


> Thanks...unfortunately I don't have an impedance rig. I'm proposing 2 ci's, 1 twfk, and the e65 per side...I'm drawing it out currently, but is a knockoff of piotrus-g's scary...I am apparently a bass-hog! As a cheap and dirty FR/Cap calculation, I use http://sim.okawa-denshi.jp/en/CRtool.php to calculate. I left the ohms of the EST65 at 1 as I understand it's gonna change as frequency changes....too simplistic?


oh, you can use the diy one laid out in the instruction manual for REW.  Its not terribly difficult.  You just want to be sure the reference resistor you choose is of high quality so your measurement will be as close as possible.  Its what I have used for years.


----------



## Wgibson (Oct 18, 2022)

If you can make an IEM, you can make an impedance tester. 100ohm resistor and the right connections, not too difficult, very valuable, you can really dial in the zobel if you spend the time, fewer surprises when adjusting crossovers. I did a quick test with driver inside the zobel a few (or more than a few) months ago, haven't used it to make any IEMs yet.




Edit: I am not necessarily suggesting that driver combination, I think it was viable based on individual frequency response curves, but not sure. I just grabbed drivers with resistance/impedance that worked out for the zobel calculation, but stopped there.


----------



## stegeoc

swtnate said:


> Airbrushing lacquer is quite easy.  I use an iwata with a .5 nozzle.  Use a low enough air pressure to atomize the liquid.  MAKE SURE you use wither a full face respirator.  Methacrylate is NO JOKE.  Also, be sure you have really good air flow.  Never thin with solvents.  I would get some disposable pipettes for filling the brush without overuse.  Practice on some flat pieces of faceplates, or any spare blanks you might have laying around.  I tend to have “unusable” opaque and/or transparent custom shells if I didnt nail the color blend or poured resin without letting de-gas under moderate heat.


Thanks for the tips.  Finally had a go at this and like the results, though they weren't perfect.  As you can see it has a slightly frosted look (looks more obvious in the pics than in real life) which I think is just down to not rotating them for long enough before curing?  Maybe also I had the mix too wet?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Wgibson said:


> If you can make an IEM, you can make an impedance tester. 100ohm resistor and the right connections, not too difficult, very valuable, you can really dial in the zobel if you spend the time, fewer surprises when adjusting crossovers. I did a quick test with driver inside the zobel a few (or more than a few) months ago, haven't used it to make any IEMs yet.
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: I am not necessarily suggesting that driver combination, I think it was viable based on individual frequency response curves, but not sure. I just grabbed drivers with resistance/impedance that worked out for the zobel calculation, but stopped there.


Congratulations for carrying my legacy lmao

I sound like an old man


My suggestion is to understand impedance and learn to implement on crossover

Zobel i did was to teach impedance and speaker kickback and how we can buffer so it resistance in source line like OI doesn't change tonality due to impedance reaction


Andro cable swap guys i am looking at you


----------



## Wgibson

@dhruvmeena96 yes, definitely got the idea from you. I have a lot of different drivers so I will try it at some point.


----------



## swtnate

stegeoc said:


> Thanks for the tips.  Finally had a go at this and like the results, though they weren't perfect.  As you can see it has a slightly frosted look (looks more obvious in the pics than in real life) which I think is just down to not rotating them for long enough before curing?  Maybe also I had the mix too wet?


That is due to either not applying enough lacquer OR your air pressure is a little too high.  Buff the surface with like P400 or P600, wipe clean with isopropanol, then re-spray.  Like @mattmatt suggested, lightly mist it first then open up your fluid supply a bit more and spray on a coat.  It should look wet like a mirror.  Then, put it on the turning motor for like 10-15 minutes.


----------



## mattmatt

stegeoc said:


> Thanks for the tips.  Finally had a go at this and like the results, though they weren't perfect.  As you can see it has a slightly frosted look (looks more obvious in the pics than in real life) which I think is just down to not rotating them for long enough before curing?  Maybe also I had the mix too wet?


Not enough fluid sprayed. This would just be my first coat. It seems to me that your pressure is way to high so the lacquer is vaporized before hitting the iems or you have your airbrush way too far. 

I actually use fairly low pressure and controlled fluid release and close to the nozzle.


----------



## mattmatt

mattmatt said:


> Not enough fluid sprayed. This would just be my first coat. It seems to me that your pressure is way to high so the lacquer is vaporized before hitting the iems or you have your airbrush way too far.
> 
> I actually use fairly low pressure and controlled fluid release and close to the nozzle.


I mean i spray really really close to the iems from the airbrush nozzle.


----------



## swtnate

mattmatt said:


> I mean i spray really really close to the iems from the airbrush nozzle.


Cant be scared!  GOTTA GO ALL THE WAY!!! 😂😂😂 When I see some of fully installed IEMs being DIPPED, I am taken aback…. 👀👀


----------



## mattmatt

swtnate said:


> Cant be scared!  GOTTA GO ALL THE WAY!!! 😂😂😂 When I see some of fully installed IEMs being DIPPED, I am taken aback…. 👀👀


If you seal the iems properly, you don't have to worry about it. The only problem I can see with that method is when you take the seal off, some of the lacquer will crack along where the seal is.


----------



## stegeoc

mattmatt said:


> Not enough fluid sprayed. This would just be my first coat. It seems to me that your pressure is way to high so the lacquer is vaporized before hitting the iems or you have your airbrush way too far.
> 
> I actually use fairly low pressure and controlled fluid release and close to the nozzle.


Thanks @mattmatt @swtnate.  It was my first time using an airbrush so I had no idea what to expect.  It sounds probable that I was too far away and using too high pressure so I'll try up close with lower pressure next time.  Will let you know how it goes.  Cheers


----------



## mattmatt

stegeoc said:


> Thanks @mattmatt @swtnate.  It was my first time using an airbrush so I had no idea what to expect.  It sounds probable that I was too far away and using too high pressure so I'll try up close with lower pressure next time.  Will let you know how it goes.  Cheers


This is what a properly sprayed one should look like. This is already cured. 

If you do a great job with spraying, you won't actually need to rotate it before curing.


----------



## swtnate

mattmatt said:


> This is what a properly sprayed one should look like. This is already cured.
> 
> If you do a great job with spraying, you won't actually need to rotate it before curing.


True.  I have to let mine turn to some of air out due to like of climate control where Im spraying.


----------



## Aldo40 (Oct 24, 2022)

mattmatt said:


> This is what a properly sprayed one should look like. This is already cured.
> 
> If you do a great job with spraying, you won't actually need to rotate it before curing.


  excellent  results similar to brushing 
 I gave up the airbrush, I don’t have time to learn how to adjust the gun ;( then I keep my brushing method or I’m used to it


----------



## Aldo40

mattmatt said:


> If you seal the iems properly, you don't have to worry about it. The only problem I can see with that method is when you take the seal off, some of the lacquer will crack along where the seal is.


I solved this problem by holding the intra through the holes of the nozzle, I no longer have concerns about removing varnish at the hole level of the 2 pin connector.

Reshell VE8

https://ibb.co/JB2J12K

https://ibb.co/ZTWYnkS

https://ibb.co/Tc54vCh


----------



## slakoth453 (Oct 27, 2022)

Decided to give the 14mm planar drivers another try, don't think it's gonna get much better than this.

I'll post some more pictures when they are finished.


----------



## barato (Oct 27, 2022)

What makes planar better? oh  you just mean the response for this IEM?

Do you have a link for the planar driver?


----------



## slakoth453

barato said:


> What makes planar better? oh  you just mean the response for this IEM?
> 
> Do you have a link for the planar driver?


This is the driver:
https://a.aliexpress.com/_EJddtaZ

I got it on taobao for a lot cheaper though. It's essentially the same driver used in most of the new planar IEMs like timeless and s12.

I just meant the fr, these drivers were an absolute pain to tune and design a shell around.


----------



## stegeoc

Replaced an mmcx cable yesterday on one of my favourite poured builds and it was very stiff and ended up pushing the sockets in (on both sides) .  

Haven't cracked it open yet, but any tips on how to fix that (after building)?  

On my latest builds I'm including a stopper at the back of the socket which will be part of the main shell, but this is an old poured shell and doesn't have that.  

I've had this problem before (with this build) and thought I'd solved it with a mixture of extra resin around the socket and lots of UV glue, but this time I gave it enough force to come loose.  I think that new resin doesn't stick to old resin very well.  Would adding new resin onto wet UV glue help it adhere better and hold everything in place?  Thanks,


----------



## mattmatt

stegeoc said:


> Replaced an mmcx cable yesterday on one of my favourite poured builds and it was very stiff and ended up pushing the sockets in (on both sides) .
> 
> Haven't cracked it open yet, but any tips on how to fix that (after building)?
> 
> ...


Mind showing what you want to work on? I might have idea what we can do about it.


----------



## stegeoc

mattmatt said:


> Mind showing what you want to work on? I might have idea what we can do about it.


Thanks, this is the only pic I can find (I haven't cracked them open yet).  I think they currently have a big blob of resin around the connector on the inside, but I think it has come detached from the main shell resin.

At the moment the whole connector is 1 or 2 mm inside from where it is in the pic.

Cheers


----------



## stegeoc (Oct 28, 2022)

slakoth453 said:


> This is the driver:
> https://a.aliexpress.com/_EJddtaZ
> 
> I got it on taobao for a lot cheaper though. It's essentially the same driver used in most of the new planar IEMs like timeless and s12.
> ...


Wow, that's pricey!  What have you done to tune it?  Some weird tubing/cavity/damping?  Can't really see in the pic.

I do have (and like) the Timeless and have been tempted to have a go at reshelling them into a custom.  I'm not a fan of the form so haven't used them much recently.  I need to use sticky tips (Acoustune or something) to get them to stay in my ears at the right depth so it's not ideal.  Only a matter of time before I try something with them

Update: Just saw the FR curve at that AliExpress link and it looks terrible!  No idea how you fixed that, but good job!


----------



## mattmatt

stegeoc said:


> Thanks, this is the only pic I can find (I haven't cracked them open yet).  I think they currently have a big blob of resin around the connector on the inside, but I think it has come detached from the main shell resin.
> 
> At the moment the whole connector is 1 or 2 mm inside from where it is in the pic.
> 
> Cheers


But your shells are not filled solid right? The best way to fix it is slicing the faceplate off. Slicing it along where the faceplate and shell meet will let the faceplate pop off cleanly almost all the time except for some brands(hello UE). Once you have access inside, remove the mmcx and the resin blob you used to hold it. Scratch the sides (on the inside part of the shell) of the slot where the mmcx will sit so the new resin will have something to grab on. Make sure that your resin blob reaches the legs for that type of mmcx so you have a locking mechanism. Just having glue or resin along the cylinder will give the mmcx change to slide off the resin. 

It's a good practice to scratch the sides of that slot so the resin you'll use to hold your sockets have something to grab to. Having thay really smooth gives a high tendency that the resin will just pop right off cleanly from the shell.


----------



## slakoth453




----------



## slakoth453 (Oct 28, 2022)

stegeoc said:


> Wow, that's pricey!  What have you done to tune it?  Some weird tubing/cavity/damping?  Can't really see in the pic.
> 
> I do have (and like) the Timeless and have been tempted to have a go at reshelling them into a custom.  I'm not a fan of the form so haven't used them much recently.  I need to use sticky tips (Acoustune or something) to get them to stay in my ears at the right depth so it's not ideal.  Only a matter of time before I try something with them
> 
> Update: Just saw the FR curve at that AliExpress link and it looks terrible!  No idea how you fixed that, but good job!


The IEMs that use this driver all seem to have this little chamber on the back of it. I had to recreate and 3d print it, without that it was impossible to get any sort of bass shelf or pinna gain. Apart from that lots of experimenting with damping and shell design.




I might share the shell stl later if anyone is interested.


----------



## mattmatt

slakoth453 said:


>


Looks lovely!


----------



## Wgibson

slakoth453 said:


> The IEMs that use this driver all seem to have this little chamber on the back of it. I had to recreate and 3d print it, without that it was impossible to get any sort of bass shelf or pinna gain. Apart from that lots of experimenting with damping and shell design.
> 
> 
> I might share the shell stl later if anyone is interested.



Very interested! I have those drivers, and I've done a single 10mm planar and a tribrid with 13mdd, 10mm planar, and a knowles fed. The tribrid was easier. I know how hard it is to get that response with physically tuning a 
single planar, very impressive.


----------



## slakoth453 (Oct 29, 2022)

Wgibson said:


> Very interested! I have those drivers, and I've done a single 10mm planar and a tribrid with 13mdd, 10mm planar, and a knowles fed. The tribrid was easier. I know how hard it is to get that response with physically tuning a
> single planar, very impressive.


Here you go:
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:5593555

Probably a good idea to add a rear vent, I just put mine on the faceplate. Keep the tuning paper on the driver intact and just glue the chamber to the back of it. I used 2x 3mm 500 mesh filters on the chamber, one 2.5mm 450 on the front vent and a 3mm 300 on the nozzle that I stuck on the inside of a steel mesh filter like this:





Adjust the front vent for bass amount. The rear chamber filter adjusts the bass shelf. A lower value will give you more midbass and lower mids. Please share if you decide to build one!


----------



## stegeoc (Oct 29, 2022)

mattmatt said:


> But your shells are not filled solid right? The best way to fix it is slicing the faceplate off. Slicing it along where the faceplate and shell meet will let the faceplate pop off cleanly almost all the time except for some brands(hello UE). Once you have access inside, remove the mmcx and the resin blob you used to hold it. Scratch the sides (on the inside part of the shell) of the slot where the mmcx will sit so the new resin will have something to grab on. Make sure that your resin blob reaches the legs for that type of mmcx so you have a locking mechanism. Just having glue or resin along the cylinder will give the mmcx change to slide off the resin.
> 
> It's a good practice to scratch the sides of that slot so the resin you'll use to hold your sockets have something to grab to. Having thay really smooth gives a high tendency that the resin will just pop right off cleanly from the shell.


Yes, not solid, hollow shell about 2mm thick.  Good point about scratching, sounds obvious now you say it.  Will give it a try soon.  Thinking now if I should do any tweaking while I'm at it..

Update: Also, another thought - As I'll probably need to recreate the faceplate anyway, I could 3D print it and easily add a stopper that way.  I've found it a lot easier to 3D print faceplates anyway.  Probably do both - belt and braces.  Thanks!


----------



## stegeoc

slakoth453 said:


> Here you go:
> https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:5593555
> 
> Probably a good idea to add a rear vent, I just put mine on the faceplate. Keep the tuning paper on the driver intact and just glue the chamber to the back of it. I used 2x 3mm 500 mesh filters on the chamber, one 2.5mm 450 on the front vent and a 3mm 300 on the nozzle that I stuck on the inside of a steel mesh filter like this:
> ...


Sounds like an interesting project for the backlog, cheers.  What did you use for the shells/faceplates?  Love the effect, was that faceplate poured?  Or you printed an image and covered with clear resin?


----------



## stegeoc

mattmatt said:


> This is what a properly sprayed one should look like. This is already cured.
> 
> If you do a great job with spraying, you won't actually need to rotate it before curing.



My Lack 3 is running quite low so only did one side for now.  I can also now tell which side is which a bit easier.

Results looking much better,  thanks.  Pic seems to have picked up scratches I can't easily see - it looks much better in real life.

I tried to adjust the air pressure but the unlabeled valve on the compressor didn't actually seem to do anything.  I did spray very close this time, though I still got a sort of splattering which I don't think is quite right.  I made sure to add a lot more than last time though and after 20 mins or so rotating it levelled out.

My Lack 3 is really quite nasty and the brush is almost solid.  I might cure the brush and try to clean it.  I think one problem I have is that I have used it a lot on sanded but not thoroughly cleaned shells and it has filled up with debris


----------



## slakoth453

stegeoc said:


> Sounds like an interesting project for the backlog, cheers.  What did you use for the shells/faceplates?  Love the effect, was that faceplate poured?  Or you printed an image and covered with clear resin?


It's stabilized wood

https://a.aliexpress.com/_EzJwyvn


----------



## mattmatt

stegeoc said:


> My Lack 3 is running quite low so only did one side for now.  I can also now tell which side is which a bit easier.
> 
> Results looking much better,  thanks.  Pic seems to have picked up scratches I can't easily see - it looks much better in real life.
> 
> ...


You shouldn't have splattering effect when brushing. Fluid should lay really good once it lands on your shell. With the valve, you should pull the one you rotate up. Press the airbrush lever to allow air out to the nozzle then adjust the valve. That's the proper way to adjust air pressure for your Compressor.


----------



## swtnate

mattmatt said:


> You shouldn't have splattering effect when brushing. Fluid should lay really good once it lands on your shell. With the valve, you should pull the one you rotate up. Press the airbrush lever to allow air out to the nozzle then adjust the valve. That's the proper way to adjust air pressure for your Compressor.


It sounds like there is much more going on than just the spraying.


----------



## stegeoc

slakoth453 said:


> It's stabilized wood
> 
> https://a.aliexpress.com/_EzJwyvn


nice, thanks


----------



## stegeoc

swtnate said:


> It sounds like there is much more going on than just the spraying.


Could be.  I think once I get a chance I may have a go at practicing the basics of airbrushing with some paint.  Should be a lot easier to get a handle on that way


----------



## swtnate

stegeoc said:


> Could be.  I think once I get a chance I may have a go at practicing the basics of airbrushing with some paint.  Should be a lot easier to get a handle on that way


Its really quite easy And takes WAY less time than brushing.


----------



## kha1id

Is the Sonion 33AJ007i/9 Internally Wired up in Parallel? I have tried to wire up only one pair of the trminal.  It doesn't sound like both drivers are working.....
Anyone has experience on this driver can hlep please?


----------



## mattmatt

kha1id said:


> Is the Sonion 33AJ007i/9 Internally Wired up in Parallel? I have tried to wire up only one pair of the trminal.  It doesn't sound like both drivers are working.....
> Anyone has experience on this driver can hlep please?


They aren't.


----------



## Aldo40

kha1id said:


> Is the Sonion 33AJ007i/9 Internally Wired up in Parallel? I have tried to wire up only one pair of the trminal.  It doesn't sound like both drivers are working.....
> Anyone has experience on this driver can hlep please?


As matmatt says it’s not, it’s up to you to serial or parallel cable depending on your needs.

The pdf is on the Sonion website.

It is possible to see the small connection wire . between the soldering pins on the double driver, if there is not one it is that they are free.


----------



## kha1id

Aldo40 said:


> As matmatt says it’s not, it’s up to you to serial or parallel cable depending on your needs.
> 
> The pdf is on the Sonion website.
> 
> It is possible to see the small connection wire . between the soldering pins on the double driver, if there is not one it is that they are free.


Thats a trouble.

I cant wire it up in parallel with simple x wiring🤣 I need to wire up all 4 points make sure that both drivers are working🥱🥱🥱


----------



## mattmatt

kha1id said:


> Thats a trouble.
> 
> I cant wire it up in parallel with simple x wiring🤣 I need to wire up all 4 points make sure that both drivers are working🥱🥱🥱


What's the reason that you can't wire it up in parallel?


----------



## Aldo40 (Nov 1, 2022)

kha1id said:


> Thats a trouble.
> 
> I cant wire it up in parallel with simple x wiring🤣 I need to wire up all 4 points make sure that both drivers are working🥱🥱🥱



test the serie already if you want, and after if you want to connect it in parralele then you have to connect it in X.

you can also test them separately without them connected in series


----------



## Wgibson

Wire them all out separately, twist the wires up nice, strain relieve it, and this eliminates almost any risk of repeatedly soldering/heating drivers. Your wires won't pull out from handling, you won't have to resolder if you need to change from series/parallel. Cut your wires on the long side and be prepared to cut and re-tin the ends, then you're on to the fun stuff.


----------



## stegeoc

swtnate said:


> Its really quite easy And takes WAY less time than brushing.


One thought - is it possible my airbrush needle is too fine?  It is 0.3mm and the Lack 3 is quite thick un-thinned


----------



## mattmatt

stegeoc said:


> One thought - is it possible my airbrush needle is too fine?  It is 0.3mm and the Lack 3 is quite thick un-thinned


Still think it's way too much pressure.


----------



## swtnate

stegeoc said:


> One thought - is it possible my airbrush needle is too fine?  It is 0.3mm and the Lack 3 is quite thick un-thinned


No. I use a .3 with all the lacquers.  Too much pressure or it needs to be cleaned out with toluene.


----------



## mattmatt

Also check you nozzle/needle or even the whole assembly. Can be partially clogged.


----------



## swtnate

mattmatt said:


> Also check you nozzle/needle or even the whole assembly. Can be partially clogged.


Also, after its clean, blow out any potential residual toluene And allow the gun to dry out completely.  The way to avoid this in the future is after spraying your piece, empty your gun, run some solvent to clean out, blow out, then leave it capped.


----------



## stegeoc

swtnate said:


> Also, after its clean, blow out any potential residual toluene And allow the gun to dry out completely.  The way to avoid this in the future is after spraying your piece, empty your gun, run some solvent to clean out, blow out, then leave it capped.


Thanks for the tips.  I did try reducing the pressure but that seemed to stop the flow of Lack completely.  It could still be the cause though as I didn't clean it out properly after the first go.  I will try stripping it down and cleaning and let you know how it goes.  Cheers


----------



## Aldo40

I haven’t tried.toluene yet but before cleaning I like to fill the.bucket with a little isopropanol alcohol and I spray it a few minutes to clean the system after I disassemble it.

Question, can isopropanol replace toluene?


----------



## mattmatt

Aldo40 said:


> I haven’t tried.toluene yet but before cleaning I like to fill the.bucket with a little isopropanol alcohol and I spray it a few minutes to clean the system after I disassemble it.
> 
> Question, can isopropanol replace toluene?


Haven't tried toluene too but 99 IPA is good enough for me.c


----------



## swtnate

mattmatt said:


> Haven't tried toluene too but 99 IPA is good enough for me.c


Toluene is the primary solvent carrier for A LOT of these type products.  It cuts resin residue like a hot knife through butter.


----------



## swtnate

Side note on toluene: never use it to clean anything not fully cured and never expose the 2-pin plastic connector.  Only bad things will happen.


----------



## stegeoc

swtnate said:


> Side note on toluene: never use it to clean anything not fully cured and never expose the 2-pin plastic connector.  Only bad things will happen.


The reason I didn't clean out the airbrush after the first (semi-successful) attempt, was that I still had Lack 3 in it that I couldn't pour out easily.  I was running low so didn't want to waste it and kept the airbrush in the dark.   Is it ok to leave in there?  It would have been sheltered from UV but would have been exposed to the air...  I can still see the Lack 3 in there and it moves around so is not cured, but I also do think it is thicker than it was to start with.  

Sounds like I need to flush it with IPA and sacrifice the Lack 3.  How do you manage to minimise the wastage?  Should I just have been more patient and left it upside down to slowly drain after each use?


----------



## mattmatt

stegeoc said:


> The reason I didn't clean out the airbrush after the first (semi-successful) attempt, was that I still had Lack 3 in it that I couldn't pour out easily.  I was running low so didn't want to waste it and kept the airbrush in the dark.   Is it ok to leave in there?  It would have been sheltered from UV but would have been exposed to the air...  I can still see the Lack 3 in there and it moves around so is not cured, but I also do think it is thicker than it was to start with.
> 
> Sounds like I need to flush it with IPA and sacrifice the Lack 3.  How do you manage to minimise the wastage?  Should I just have been more patient and left it upside down to slowly drain after each use?


that lack is a no go already. too much solvent have evaporated. I measure mine with a dropper. I have standard volume. I kinda eyeball how much I use


----------



## GeneBush

Aldo40 said:


> Thank ohige
> 
> [


What are you guys using to create full nozles empty shell and tubing?
I'm new on 3d printing and i'm going crazy with meshmixer

Any help appreciated


----------



## slakoth453

GeneBush said:


> What are you guys using to create full nozles empty shell and tubing?
> I'm new on 3d printing and i'm going crazy with meshmixer
> 
> Any help appreciated


I usually make the shell itself in meshmixer and the tubing in fusion. Export the shell twice from meshmixer, one solid one hollow, slice the top half off the solid one and combine the two in fusion. Probably not the best way to do it so if anyone has a different method please share.


----------



## GeneBush (Nov 7, 2022)

Finally, the first pair using a 3d printer!
7drivers used

Sonion 38AJ007Mi/a
DTEC 30008
ED 29689
LS Fwek

It took me longer than expected since i'm new to 3d printing but they came out pretty decent i think!

Kudos Guys!


----------



## Aldo40 (Nov 8, 2022)

GeneBush said:


> What are you guys using to create full nozles empty shell and tubing?
> I'm new on 3d printing and i'm going crazy with meshmixer
> 
> Any help appreciated



The shell is smoothed in meshmixer, then it is separated into two parts, the nozzle remains full and a hollow is applied on the second part and the two parts are recombined  in meshmixer. Then we export the STL file to fusion360 to create the pin/mmcx connectors bores and locations


----------



## swtnate

Aldo40 said:


> The shell is smoothed in meshmixer, then it is separated into two parts, the nozzle remains full and a hollow is applied on the second part and the two parts are recombined  in meshmixer. Then we export the STL file to fusion360 to create the pin/mmcx connectors bores and locations


How are you doing the conversion from STL to B-Rep without Fusion 360 freezing up?  If theres over 6-7,000 faces, 360 freezes.  Thats the single reason I discontinued my fusion subscription.


----------



## slakoth453

swtnate said:


> How are you doing the conversion from STL to B-Rep without Fusion 360 freezing up?  If theres over 6-7,000 faces, 360 freezes.  Thats the single reason I discontinued my fusion subscription.


Reduce the mesh before converting, there's no need for it to be that detailed.


----------



## Aldo40

swtnate said:


> How are you doing the conversion from STL to B-Rep without Fusion 360 freezing up?  If theres over 6-7,000 faces, 360 freezes.  Thats the single reason I discontinued my fusion subscription.


I don’t do conversion.
I open my stl in F360 as below


----------



## piotrus-g

swtnate said:


> How are you doing the conversion from STL to B-Rep without Fusion 360 freezing up?  If theres over 6-7,000 faces, 360 freezes.  Thats the single reason I discontinued my fusion subscription.


I have no problems with converting STL to solids with 10k+ faces, it takes 30-40 seconds. I get the warning but overall it can be done and I'm typically converting 2 shells at once. Doing Mesh to Solid conversion is enough to add parametric parts to the "mesh" without going into too much complexity. Unless you are looking for something else from that process.


----------



## swtnate

piotrus-g said:


> I have no problems with converting STL to solids with 10k+ faces, it takes 30-40 seconds. I get the warning but overall it can be done and I'm typically converting 2 shells at once. Doing Mesh to Solid conversion is enough to add parametric parts to the "mesh" without going into too much complexity. Unless you are looking for something else from that process.


I have literally given up on Fusion360 at the moment... I'm using a 2020 macbook pro, which has zero problems computing and converting with every one of my other programs.  So, I was having to load the stl into an app called instant meshes, (thanks for the tip @mattmatt ) to convert the stl into a quad mesh.  Which made it much easier.  However, I was having to reduce the number of faces so much that the resolution was all but gone.  TOTAL BUMMER! for me.! I'm about to check out the cyfex secret ear builder.  Maybe there will be hope for me there. LOL


----------



## arielsivan

Hi 
Im looking for a reference for @piotrus-g scary..
Thanks


----------



## swtnate

arielsivan said:


> Hi
> Im looking for a reference for @piotrus-g scary..
> Thanks


The man the myth the legend.  Say his name and he shall appear. @piotrus-g


----------



## CBTlover223

Hello, anyone here have any experience with using different drivers together to cover the same frequency range? For instance, If I use a DWFK and ED or 2389 together, will the mids sound muddy or weird? I've been experimenting with some new build ideas, but I'm not sure if this is something worth experimenting with. Appreciate any advice or anecdotes you guys have. Thanks


----------



## swtnate

CBTlover223 said:


> Hello, anyone here have any experience with using different drivers together to cover the same frequency range? For instance, If I use a DWFK and ED or 2389 together, will the mids sound muddy or weird? I've been experimenting with some new build ideas, but I'm not sure if this is something worth experimenting with. Appreciate any advice or anecdotes you guys have. Thanks


Using and ED29689 with a 2389 would essentially give you more head room for whatever frequency spectrum you have them set to.  adding a DWFK will sound awesome! Again, its all about how well the drivers work together.  Using the same driver in duplicate, such as 4xTWFK, just allows the sound stage to present with significantly less THD and a loss of sibilant crunch.  But again, it really comes down to what you set as the design profile for your soundstage.  Some drivers just wont get you there some times.  Example: you could put 10 RAB32257 in one ear and 10 in the other and still not get a sub signal that makes you FEEL an 808 drum.


----------



## swtnate

CBTlover223 said:


> Hello, anyone here have any experience with using different drivers together to cover the same frequency range? For instance, If I use a DWFK and ED or 2389 together, will the mids sound muddy or weird? I've been experimenting with some new build ideas, but I'm not sure if this is something worth experimenting with. Appreciate any advice or anecdotes you guys have. Thanks


Side note, Im actually building out a 10 driver build that uses a DWFK and a 28UAP01.  Sound rich and full.


----------



## tonybuild

Shilohsjustice said:


> I wasn't trolling the internet and came across this, thought I would share.


Hi , thank you for all pics. 
I also make ciems but i buy ba drivers that already have crossover . Like Knowles dual drivers and triple  drivers . 

But today I tried my first time to make crossover. 
 I got Knowles ci 22955 and sonion 2389 . 
I put 10 ohm on ci and 1.5 cap on sonion
Is that right way to do it?or it has to be more complicated? 
The bass didn’t sound that good to be honest


----------



## swtnate

tonybuild said:


> Hi , thank you for all pics.
> I also make ciems but i buy ba drivers that already have crossover . Like Knowles dual drivers and triple  drivers .
> 
> But today I tried my first time to make crossover.
> ...


that's set-up, without knowing the acoustic tubing and dampers used, off the cuffs seems to be a pretty dark soundstage with some sibilant crunch in the upper mids.  I almost always use a series 10-15 Ω resistor followed by a 4.7uf capacitor for the 2389 and the 29689.  The CI is such a great receiver.  The 2 main downsides for me, 1) it is a very loud receiver that's very easy to drive no matter the source impedance.  Your issue will come at different volume levels.  I'd use a red or orange damper on the CI with like, 12-15mm long, 2mmX1mm (ID) acoustic tubing.  Put the damper of choice somewhere around 8-9 mm away from the driver.  The 2389 and the 29689 question can not be  easily answered due to having 3 active pads


----------



## tonybuild

swtnate said:


> that's set-up, without knowing the acoustic tubing and dampers used, off the cuffs seems to be a pretty dark soundstage with some sibilant crunch in the upper mids.  I almost always use a series 10-15 Ω resistor followed by a 4.7uf capacitor for the 2389 and the 29689.  The CI is such a great receiver.  The 2 main downsides for me, 1) it is a very loud receiver that's very easy to drive no matter the source impedance.  Your issue will come at different volume levels.  I'd use a red or orange damper on the CI with like, 12-15mm long, 2mmX1mm (ID) acoustic tubing.  Put the damper of choice somewhere around 8-9 mm away from the driver.  The 2389 and the 29689 question can not be  easily answered due to having 3 active pads


Thank you so much for answer.
Do you think 29689 Is better than 2389?
And also can I ask what happens if you put more ohm or less ohm on ci ? Also what happens if you put more cap or less cap uf on 2389 ? 
Thank you


----------



## swtnate

tonybuild said:


> Thank you so much for answer.
> Do you think 29689 Is better than 2389?
> And also can I ask what happens if you put more ohm or less ohm on ci ? Also what happens if you put more cap or less cap uf on 2389 ?
> Thank you


.47uf will restrict more low frequency than 4.7uf.  
adding resistors in series does restrict some high frequencies, but nothing dramatic.  A series resistor essentially adds resistance to the signal path going to that driver.  Mainly used to lower the overall volume of a driver or drivers. Lower value series resistors like 1-15 ohms is usually pretty standard.  When you start using high value resistors like 80, 90, 100, you are much better off in my opinion using an L-pad to reduce the overall volume of the driver as it will lower the volume of the driver but not effect the DCR of the unit.  Also, contrary to what some MAY think is true, L-Pads and Zobel networks improve the over performance of the driver being servicex nd DO NOT introduce an electrical phase shift when calculated properly.

regarding which one is better, the 89 or 96.  For me it all depends on what I am teaming them up together with.  Example:  I would choose the 2389 in partner with a 3300 series or 3800 series dual wooofer.  If I were using it with maybr something not as boomy and something more tight and precise, I might go with the 96.  the 2389 is way less sibilant to my ear.  The 96 has a bit of crunch when not restricted and seems more warm with proper dampening technique.


----------



## tonybuild

swtnate said:


> .47uf will restrict more low frequency than 4.7uf.
> adding resistors in series does restrict some high frequencies, but nothing dramatic.  A series resistor essentially adds resistance to the signal path going to that driver.  Mainly used to lower the overall volume of a driver or drivers. Lower value series resistors like 1-15 ohms is usually pretty standard.  When you start using high value resistors like 80, 90, 100, you are much better off in my opinion using an L-pad to reduce the overall volume of the driver as it will lower the volume of the driver but not effect the DCR of the unit.  Also, contrary to what some MAY think is true, L-Pads and Zobel networks improve the over performance of the driver being servicex nd DO NOT introduce an electrical phase shift when calculated properly.
> 
> regarding which one is better, the 89 or 96.  For me it all depends on what I am teaming them up together with.  Example:  I would choose the 2389 in partner with a 3300 series or 3800 series dual wooofer.  If I were using it with maybr something not as boomy and something more tight and precise, I might go with the 96.  the 2389 is way less sibilant to my ear.  The 96 has a bit of crunch when not restricted and seems more warm with proper dampening technique.


Thank you for good info 

Did you see the picture ?


----------



## piotrus-g

swtnate said:


> The man the myth the legend.  Say his name and he shall appear. @piotrus-g


Haha, unfortunately I don't know which page is that schematics. I know some keep better track.


----------



## arielsivan

piotrus-g said:


> Haha, unfortunately I don't know which page is that schematics. I know some keep better track.


Is this the correct scheme? 
If so, waht are the R1 and C1?


----------



## CBTlover223

swtnate said:


> Using and ED29689 with a 2389 would essentially give you more head room for whatever frequency spectrum you have them set to.  adding a DWFK will sound awesome! Again, its all about how well the drivers work together.  Using the same driver in duplicate, such as 4xTWFK, just allows the sound stage to present with significantly less THD and a loss of sibilant crunch.  But again, it really comes down to what you set as the design profile for your soundstage.  Some drivers just wont get you there some times.  Example: you could put 10 RAB32257 in one ear and 10 in the other and still not get a sub signal that makes you FEEL an 808 drum.


Thanks for the response, although not quite I was looking for, I appreciate the advice. I was more concerned about slight differences in acoustic phase making it sound weird. Although I feel like a slight differences in phase wont really be noticeable by the human ear, I don't really have the resources to test it experimentally ATM. For instance, Ignoring the electrical interference between drivers, If I run something like a 2389 and a dwfk together without any crossover circuitry, would the mids sound bad due to interference between the drivers?


----------



## piotrus-g

arielsivan said:


> Is this the correct scheme?
> If so, waht are the R1 and C1?


I think the top driver should be marked as WBFK and the bottom should be FK and in that case WBFK should be 1uF and FK should be 20-40uF. Otheriwse it doesn't makes sense to me.
CI wiring is also incorrect. Picture shows shorting positive and negative together - CI would not produce sound in that case. I would argue you need to wire what's marked as "minus pads" (also incorrectly) together and than attach positive to one of the "+" and negative to the second driver's "+" to make series wiring. As for the values anything around 200Hz-500Hz crossover point for low pas, so... 5 Ohm+100uF or 40 ohms + 10uF, use the LPF calculator to figure out values. The more Ohms you put the lower the CI level will be. And the opposite would be true for uF values - bigger uF quieter TWFK and hence louder CI. granted we are looking at CI in series with low pass I'd go for something closer to 40 ohms.


----------



## swtnate

CBTlover223 said:


> Thanks for the response, although not quite I was looking for, I appreciate the advice. I was more concerned about slight differences in acoustic phase making it sound weird. Although I feel like a slight differences in phase wont really be noticeable by the human ear, I don't really have the resources to test it experimentally ATM. For instance, Ignoring the electrical interference between drivers, If I run something like a 2389 and a dwfk together without any crossover circuitry, would the mids sound bad due to interference between the drivers?


“Bad” , no. is it what you want? Idk.  Wire it and listen to it if you cant test. why would there be phase issues if nothing is wired in parallel to the drivers?


----------



## CBTlover223

swtnate said:


> “Bad” , no. is it what you want? Idk.  Wire it and listen to it if you cant test. why would there be phase issues if nothing is wired in parallel to the drivers?


From my understanding, (which very well could be wrong) apart from phase shifts causes by capacitors and inductors, you can physically shift acoustic phase by changing the tubing length or tubing geometry, with these changes being prominent enough to cause interference. Since different drivers will have inherently different acoustic phase and SPL curves, I'm concerned that using 2 different drivers with that will have 20-45 degree phase in certain frequencies differences to cover the same frequency range will cause audible changes to the sound other than those that can be seen on the SPL graph.


----------



## musmecca (Nov 13, 2022)

arielsivan said:


> Is this the correct scheme?
> If so, waht are the R1 and C1?


Go to post 3964 on page 265....that is Piotrus-G's original design. I have made this IEM numerous times and it is still one of my favorites.


----------



## swtnate

CBTlover223 said:


> From my understanding, (which very well could be wrong) apart from phase shifts causes by capacitors and inductors, you can physically shift acoustic phase by changing the tubing length or tubing geometry, with these changes being prominent enough to cause interference. Since different drivers will have inherently different acoustic phase and SPL curves, I'm concerned that using 2 different drivers with that will have 20-45 degree phase in certain frequencies differences to cover the same frequency range will cause audible changes to the sound other than those that can be seen on the SPL graph.


Everything you are asking requires either testing or listening.  The “acoustic phase” you are speaking of, is very easily dealt with by testing.  Unless its a build that has been published, no one can tell you how it will sound.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

swtnate said:


> The man the myth the legend.  Say his name and he shall appear. @piotrus-g


Also that dual CI still hits hardcore and he gave it for free
Ages ago........
Fibae 7 Unlimited/Ultimate
Is scary on dynamic range.... I can go louuuuuudddd and it still sounds really goooood


----------



## piotrus-g

musmecca said:


> Go to post 3964 on page 265....that is Piotrus-G's original design. I have made this IEM numerous times and it is still one of my favorites.


Thanks!


----------



## slakoth453

musmecca said:


> Go to post 3964 on page 265....that is Piotrus-G's original design. I have made this IEM numerous times and it is still one of my favorites.


Graph looks really nice! Think I'm gonna try making one, only have CI-30120 but that should still work right? I think impedance is only like 2 Ohm lower. Has anyone tried separating one of the knowles drivers with crossover? I'd like to get the TWFK from my GV but I'm scared of damaging it.


----------



## swtnate

slakoth453 said:


> Graph looks really nice! Think I'm gonna try making one, only have CI-30120 but that should still work right? I think impedance is only like 2 Ohm lower. Has anyone tried separating one of the knowles drivers with crossover? I'd like to get the TWFK from my GV but I'm scared of damaging it.


I wouldnt even attempt it.  The way they are bonded together, its not so easy.


----------



## slakoth453

swtnate said:


> I wouldnt even attempt it.  The way they are bonded together, its not so easy.


Yeah I thought so, gonna have to use an LS TWFK clone then.


----------



## slakoth453

Ok so I tried it and I did get them apart fairly easily using an x-acto knife.


----------



## swtnate

The only issue ive had is the slight separation of the metal when splitting the drivers.  Id test the FR to be sure they are identical.


----------



## slakoth453

swtnate said:


> The only issue ive had is the slight separation of the metal when splitting the drivers.  Id test the FR to be sure they are identical.


I'll test that later, thanks! 
Doing the wiring (getting rid of the old caps and stuff) first but it'll probably be a few weeks before I can finish the build. Also got another IEM I'm working on.

One more question, when people talk about tube length do they include the part that goes over the spout of the BA or is it measured from the end of the spout?


----------



## johnchpark (Nov 14, 2022)

I have a question for those 3D printing.

I have my ear impressions as a digital STL file, but I want to make CIEM shells from them for 3D printing. The STL impressions look like they were taken before the silicone molds were trimmed, so I assume they need to be edited more in software.

Are there any tutorials for going about this?
I have Autocad, but I'm still learning how to use it, and I have very limited knowledge on 3D designing, so I don't know if this is something that will be manageable for me or not. 
Thanks


----------



## slakoth453 (Nov 15, 2022)

johnchpark said:


> I have a question for those 3D printing.
> 
> I have my ear impressions as a digital STL file, but I want to make CIEM shells from them for 3D printing. The STL impressions look like they were taken before the silicone molds were trimmed, so I assume they need to be edited more in software.
> 
> ...


You should use meshmixer, this video is pretty good for getting started.


----------



## johnchpark

slakoth453 said:


> You should use meshmixer, this video is pretty good for getting started.




Thanks a lot! 
Watched the tutorial and was able to get my shells done with Mixer!
Even got around to trying a CIEM eartip mold.
Now just have to find a 3D printer to test them


----------



## tonybuild

I have question please.

Someone asked me if i can make something like ue 7 pro ?
I can , But i dont know what drivers to put inside,even more I don’t know what cap and resisters to put inside to have very close sound with ue 7 .
Thank you


----------



## Aldo40

arielsivan said:


> Is this the correct scheme?
> If so, waht are the R1 and C1?


You have a bad CI connection there is one too many wire in the center cross, remove the wire " \"


----------



## slakoth453

tonybuild said:


> I have question please.
> 
> Someone asked me if i can make something like ue 7 pro ?
> I can , But i dont know what drivers to put inside,even more I don’t know what cap and resisters to put inside to have very close sound with ue 7 .
> Thank you


Page 946, first post. Tuning of the ue 7 pro doesn't look that nice though if you ask me, basically a flat line.


----------



## tonybuild

swtnate said:


> @mattmatt @Wgibson  Here's a triple driver SPL.  I used a 29689 and 33AJ007i/9.


Wow. I actually wanted to make iems with this drivers . 
Since im new ,i dont know how it will sounds. 
Do you like it better than knowles 31732? 
Do you suggest?


----------



## stegeoc

slakoth453 said:


> It's stabilized wood
> 
> https://a.aliexpress.com/_EzJwyvn


Not been very productive recently but I've stripped down the airbrush and have some new Lack 3, so hoping to get something done soon.  I also got some of this wood which looks very interesting.  Plan to recap an existing build (already have far too many so am trying to upgrade where possible instead of doing new builds).  Any tips for the wood caps?  Do you simply plane them flat, glue them on, grind, sand and Lack them?  Do they need/benefit from a coating of clear resin?  

I did some carbon caps before and ended up doing a very thin resin cap underneath to give them more to bind on to (they fell off the first time), I found the tops looked really good with just Lack 3 though and didn't add resin


----------



## slakoth453

Does anyone know if these e-audio listings are for a pair or a single unit?

https://main.m.taobao.com/detail/in...d_10.7.0&sid=3d74f22291b4ad7e9d3d0cdc6e887c32


----------



## slakoth453 (Nov 17, 2022)

stegeoc said:


> Not been very productive recently but I've stripped down the airbrush and have some new Lack 3, so hoping to get something done soon.  I also got some of this wood which looks very interesting.  Plan to recap an existing build (already have far too many so am trying to upgrade where possible instead of doing new builds).  Any tips for the wood caps?  Do you simply plane them flat, glue them on, grind, sand and Lack them?  Do they need/benefit from a coating of clear resin?
> 
> I did some carbon caps before and ended up doing a very thin resin cap underneath to give them more to bind on to (they fell off the first time), I found the tops looked really good with just Lack 3 though and didn't add resin


Might be good to do two coats and sand in between because I feel like they soak up a bit of the lacquer, I've always done it without but you could probably get better results that way. Maybe a bit of clear resin would also help like you said. They're pretty easy to work with over all I'd say. Resin underneath is not necessary, they hold on well as is. Thanks for the tip though, I've had problems with carbon faceplates coming off when sanding.


----------



## mattmatt

stegeoc said:


> Not been very productive recently but I've stripped down the airbrush and have some new Lack 3, so hoping to get something done soon.  I also got some of this wood which looks very interesting.  Plan to recap an existing build (already have far too many so am trying to upgrade where possible instead of doing new builds).  Any tips for the wood caps?  Do you simply plane them flat, glue them on, grind, sand and Lack them?  Do they need/benefit from a coating of clear resin?
> 
> I did some carbon caps before and ended up doing a very thin resin cap underneath to give them more to bind on to (they fell off the first time), I found the tops looked really good with just Lack 3 though and didn't add resin


If it's not stabilized, i'd suggest coating it with thin CA. Make sure that no wood pores are exposed. That will lead to lacquer bubbling while curing.


----------



## slakoth453

.


----------



## CBTlover223

slakoth453 said:


> Does anyone know if these e-audio listings are for a pair or a single unit?
> 
> https://main.m.taobao.com/detail/index.html?spm=a21jn4.26183572.srplist.1&id=620326488475&search_ver=common&&ttid=600000@taobao_android_10.7.0&sid=3d74f22291b4ad7e9d3d0cdc6e887c32


single unit of 4 drivers glued together I believe


----------



## stegeoc

slakoth453 said:


> Might be good to do two coats and sand in between because I feel like they soak up a bit of the lacquer, I've always done it without but you could probably get better results that way. Maybe a bit of clear resin would also help like you said. They're pretty easy to work with over all I'd say. Resin underneath is not necessary, they hold on well as is. Thanks for the tip though, I've had problems with carbon faceplates coming off when sanding.


Thanks, will let you know how it goes.  FYI, not sure if it was necessary, but when making a really thin resin cap, I found it easiest to cure a thin layer of resin for just a few seconds so it was still flexible and could be cut out with scissors and then properly cured once fixed


----------



## stegeoc

mattmatt said:


> If it's not stabilized, i'd suggest coating it with thin CA. Make sure that no wood pores are exposed. That will lead to lacquer bubbling while curing.


I got the one in the link which claims to be stabilised.  I'm really not sure though.  The original colour can be seen in some places and it looks like it is just dyed.  Maybe I'll do a test and see what happens.

Cheers


----------



## swtnate

stegeoc said:


> I got the one in the link which claims to be stabilised.  I'm really not sure though.  The original colour can be seen in some places and it looks like it is just dyed.  Maybe I'll do a test and see what happens.
> 
> Cheers


I hand cut pieces of wood all the time teak, black walnut, mahogany, etc.  i coat the bottoms with 2-3 coats of L-1.  I place adhesive vinyl on the opening then cut it out to get the shape.  place the vinyl on top of wood piece and cut it/ sand it out using a dremel.  Then glue it to the shell.  Sand the top to uniform and cover with resin using a toothpick.


----------



## slakoth453

Just finished this hybrid using a cnt dynamic, e-audio dual 29689 and e-audio 31736.

Some of the widest stage I've heard in an IEM and female vocals sound amazing, I'm very impressed with the e-audio dual ed. 
First set I did using a crossover that actually turned out well.


----------



## mattmatt

slakoth453 said:


> Just finished this hybrid using a cnt dynamic, e-audio dual 29689 and e-audio 31736.
> 
> Some of the widest stage I've heard in an IEM and female vocals sound amazing, I'm very impressed with the e-audio dual ed.
> First set I did using a crossover that actually turned out well.


Wow! You made this?! Looks amazing. This is a 3D printed shell right? Mind me asking what dynamic driver you used? Also, what's e-audio? Another BA maker?


----------



## slakoth453

mattmatt said:


> Wow! You made this?! Looks amazing. This is a 3D printed shell right? Mind me asking what dynamic driver you used? Also, what's e-audio? Another BA maker?


Thanks! Yeah the shell is 3d printed blessing 2/softears volume style. E-audio is how the LS store BAs are known on taobao, I think it's another manufacturer, not bellsing. 

https://a.aliexpress.com/_Ey5VNUt

This is the dynamic, mine actually came with a cap even though it says it doesn't. Sounds good as a woofer, not sure how it would be full range.


----------



## mattmatt

slakoth453 said:


> Thanks! Yeah the shell is 3d printed blessing 2/softears volume style. E-audio is how the LS store BAs are known on taobao, I think it's another manufacturer, not bellsing.
> 
> https://a.aliexpress.com/_Ey5VNUt
> 
> This is the dynamic, mine actually came with a cap even though it says it doesn't. Sounds good as a woofer, not sure how it would be full range.


Looks good! I can actually see the tube for the dynamic. Looks amazing.


----------



## arielsivan

slakoth453 said:


> Just finished this hybrid using a cnt dynamic, e-audio dual 29689 and e-audio 31736.
> 
> Some of the widest stage I've heard in an IEM and female vocals sound amazing, I'm very impressed with the e-audio dual ed.
> First set I did using a crossover that actually turned out well.


AMAZING
Can you share with us the crossover scheme?


----------



## slakoth453 (Nov 20, 2022)

arielsivan said:


> AMAZING
> Can you share with us the crossover scheme?


Not sure about exact tube lengths because I haven't figured out how to measure splines in fusion. The ED (DEG) has a green damper at the nozzle and the SWFK (DWEK) has an orange one at the bend of the tube.


----------



## TOBIJampar

Theodoric Paddlefoot said:


> A little update from my MASM 3 Pro with added 38D1X, the MASM 5 A.
> I've played around a bit with adding tubes right into the shell in Fusion 360 and that worked quite well. In the end though, I've settled with the shell from @Aldo40 from page 885, which I modified to make the nozzle bigger so that I can fit 2x 2mm and 1x 1mm ID tubes quite nicely.
> I've printed with black resin and used Lack 3 for the shell itself and for the faceplate I went with some nail polish with chameleon effect, covered with Lack 3.
> 
> ...


How did you solder the 38D1XJ? Did you bridge the + and - terminals of both drivers, or did you do something else?


----------



## TOBIJampar

slakoth453 said:


> Can confirm pro3dure let me order from them without a business. Just send them an email, L-1 is what you want.


They told me, they do not sell to non business entities. But i managed to order some Egger LP/H through a lokal audiologist.


----------



## TOBIJampar

slakoth453 said:


> Not sure about exact tube lengths because I haven't figured out how to measure splines in fusion. The ED (DEG) has a green damper at the nozzle and the swfk (DWEK) has an orange one at the bend of the tube.


If you have one continuous spline, you should get the length with the measure tool. If it's a path made of multiple segments you can use point along path, select the path and then set proportional to 1. If you then switch to physical it tells you the length.


----------



## slakoth453

TOBIJampar said:


> They told me, they do not sell to non business entities. But i managed to order some Egger LP/H through a lokal audiologist.


Huh so I got lucky then it seems. I didn't tell them I don't have a business or anything but they didn't ask either.


----------



## Xymordos

slakoth453 said:


> Just finished this hybrid using a cnt dynamic, e-audio dual 29689 and e-audio 31736.
> 
> Some of the widest stage I've heard in an IEM and female vocals sound amazing, I'm very impressed with the e-audio dual ed.
> First set I did using a crossover that actually turned out well.



Wow nice! I'm a big fan of eAudio drivers


----------



## Fat Larry

I'm just getting interested in building some IEMs. Really looking forward to it as i keep not quite finding what i want in the market. Namely very small shells and high technicalities. Which leads me to  >

Has anyone tried these planar drivers?

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/100...d716690140637064700e326a!12000017391039314!sh

Also is there a FAQ or getting started guide around?

Lastly any suggestions for DD drivers? I know i can find info on configurations for knowles and sonion ba's but the amount of DDs available on Ali is quite overwhelming. Asking on DD's as i have an old pair of Oriveti New Primacys with a failed DD driver and i might start by replacing the dd's in that set.


----------



## slakoth453

Fat Larry said:


> I'm just getting interested in building some IEMs. Really looking forward to it as i keep not quite finding what i want in the market. Namely very small shells and high technicalities. Which leads me to  >
> 
> Has anyone tried these planar drivers?
> 
> ...


That's the old gen of planars, very hard to drive and tune. If you want planar try some 14mm ones but they also aren't that easy to tune. I shared my design on page 961 if you're interested.

https://main.m.taobao.com/detail/index.html?spm=a21jn4.26183572.srplist.6&id=640103709673&search_ver=common&&ttid=600000@taobao_android_10.7.0&sid=aa54f5e9d028b5095ebb768c1190782b

Single dynamics will be much easier, huayunxin drivers are cheap and good quality.

https://m.alibaba.com/product/1600618624061/detail.html?channel=minisite_a2706.wshop_pltab.119.i52&otherparams=https%3A%2F%2Fm.alibaba.com%2Fproduct%2F1600618624061%2FTWS-style-Earbuds-speaker-and-wireless.html&scenery_id=2&tracelog=a2706.wshop_pltab.119.i52&spm=a2706.wshop_pltab.119.i52&wx_navbar_transparent=true

https://m.alibaba.com/product/1600602432610/detail.html?channel=minisite_a2706.wshop_pltab.119.i99&otherparams=https://m.alibaba.com/product/1600602432610/high-quality-hifi-headset-loudspeaker-parts.html&scenery_id=2&tracelog=a2706.wshop_pltab.119.i99&spm=a2706.wshop_pltab.119.i99&wx_navbar_transparent=true

I also found these which I'm pretty sure are the drivers used in tripowin olina and tanchjim o2

https://m.intl.taobao.com/detail/de...97&spm=a2141.7631671.content.114#&gid=1&pid=3


----------



## slakoth453

@Fat Larry if you just want something with good technicalities and a small shell, have you tried tripowin olina se? It's my favorite single dynamic and the shell is very small and comfortable.


----------



## Fat Larry

slakoth453 said:


> @Fat Larry if you just want something with good technicalities and a small shell, have you tried tripowin olina se? It's my favorite single dynamic and the shell is very small and comfortable.



I haven't no. Will take a look.

I was kinda hoping i could maybe put something together with that 10mm planar that might approach the timeless but be the size of an Mh-750. Perhaps thats a little lofty for a beginner or perhaps impossible due to the acoustic chamber being to small. I wouldn't know yet. 

Other thing i was considering was a small custom (had my impressions scanned a while back) with BA's or maybe a hybrid.


----------



## piotrus-g

slakoth453 said:


> Not sure about exact tube lengths because I haven't figured out how to measure splines in fusion. The ED (DEG) has a green damper at the nozzle and the SWFK (DWEK) has an orange one at the bend of the tube.


That 10 Ohm resistor at the start makes little sense it reduces the power to the entire circuit - makes everything quieter - it has same effect as simply permanently reducing the volume on sound source, but you could argue it's another passive component in the audio path which would degrade audio signal. Food for thought


----------



## slakoth453

piotrus-g said:


> That 10 Ohm resistor at the start makes little sense it reduces the power to the entire circuit - makes everything quieter - it has same effect as simply permanently reducing the volume on sound source, but you could argue it's another passive component in the audio path which would degrade audio signal. Food for thought


I thought people would complain about that haha. Impedance isn't exactly flat so I use the resistor to reduce treble a bit, do you think a resistor for the swfk makes more sense in this case? I just felt like that would reduce 10k+ too much compared to 8k.


----------



## piotrus-g

slakoth453 said:


> I thought people would complain about that haha. Impedance isn't exactly flat so I use the resistor to reduce treble a bit, do you think a resistor for the swfk makes more sense in this case? I just felt like that would reduce 10k+ too much compared to 8k.


OK... I kind a get it where you're coming from but it's not optimal. Put the resistor before the 0.33uF that way you'll reduce the level of treble without affecting crossover point


----------



## Xymordos

I use those planars coz the 10mm is easier to fit into the shell, they're alright but the matching seems awful.


----------



## AMerePerson

Speaking of those planar drivers, there's a Reddit thread where a user tore them down: https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones/comments/yy33to/look_inside_the_10mm_and_14mm_planar_driver/

10mm is single stator with 3 magnets while 14mm is double stator with 7 magnets each.


----------



## slakoth453

AMerePerson said:


> Speaking of those planar drivers, there's a Reddit thread where a user tore them down: https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones/comments/yy33to/look_inside_the_10mm_and_14mm_planar_driver/
> 
> 10mm is single stator with 3 magnets while 14mm is double stator with 7 magnets each.


I'm just wondering where they found the transparent one, looks to be the same as the other 14mm planars otherwise. I'm planning on making another planar iem from drivers I took from the 7hz dioko but broke one driver while trying to get it out. I managed to fix it by tearing the driver apart, extending one of the pins that are supposed to touch the diaphragm with a tiny bit of solder and putting them back together. They still measure close enough to where I should be able to get them tuned the same.


----------



## stegeoc

slakoth453 said:


> Just finished this hybrid using a cnt dynamic, e-audio dual 29689 and e-audio 31736.
> 
> Some of the widest stage I've heard in an IEM and female vocals sound amazing, I'm very impressed with the e-audio dual ed.
> First set I did using a crossover that actually turned out well.


Very nice!  It looks like solid resin.  How are the BAs mounted?  I can't see the hollow which makes it look like the whole thing is filled, but it can't be as the BAs are vented.  How did you do that?  Also, what effect do you get from the front vent on the BA?  Does that tame the bottom end?


----------



## slakoth453

stegeoc said:


> Very nice!  It looks like solid resin.  How are the BAs mounted?  I can't see the hollow which makes it look like the whole thing is filled, but it can't be as the BAs are vented.  How did you do that?  Also, what effect do you get from the front vent on the BA?  Does that tame the bottom end?


The shell is solid about half way and there are cavities for the drivers, I just glued them in with resin so you can see them better. They're sealed against the tubes with a small piece of 2mm od tubing. One vent on the ED is closed and that's the one that's submerged. The front vent is on the DD tube and prevents pressure build up and driver flex at the cost of some amount of sub bass. That's the 2db roll off you can see in the graph so not too bad. There's also a rear vent in the shell.


----------



## stegeoc

slakoth453 said:


> The shell is solid about half way and there are cavities for the drivers, I just glued them in with resin so you can see them better. They're sealed against the tubes with a small piece of 2mm od tubing. One vent on the ED is closed and that's the one that's submerged. The front vent is on the DD tube and prevents pressure build up and driver flex at the cost of some amount of sub bass. That's the 2db roll off you can see in the graph so not too bad. There's also a rear vent in the shell.


Interesting, thanks for the info.  Looks very tidy done this way, some good points to think about for next time


----------



## stegeoc

How do you find the E-Audio (LS) DWEK? I have a couple of Knowles SWFKs on the way for future use but see that the DWEK is a third of the price! The FR graph is slightly different (second peak) but I guess that could be down to the way they measure them. I did buy some LS drivers once but I couldn’t get the tuning the way I wanted and destroyed one after too many rebuilds. Not their fault, I destroy BAs without prejudice.

Also, on a completely different note, how do you all translate tube lengths between universals and customs (and deep fit customs)? i.e. if you try to replicate a ciem build as a universal (or vice versa) how do you adjust the tube lengths? Or does the whole sound signature change so much with the changed resonances etc. that you need to test and experiment?

I got some B2s professionally reshelled a while back (don’t have them anymore) and they kept the original structure and made the ciem canal a big wide open (but deep) passage. It did sound different, but was very nice. At the time I didn’t have a way to measure it and the time spent getting it done meant I couldn’t be sure of the differences I thought I heard


----------



## slakoth453 (Nov 23, 2022)

stegeoc said:


> How do you find the E-Audio (LS) DWEK? I have a couple of Knowles SWFKs on the way for future use but see that the DWEK is a third of the price! The FR graph is slightly different (second peak) but I guess that could be down to the way they measure them. I did buy some LS drivers once but I couldn’t get the tuning the way I wanted and destroyed one after too many rebuilds. Not their fault, I destroy BAs without prejudice.
> 
> Also, on a completely different note, how do you all translate tube lengths between universals and customs (and deep fit customs)? i.e. if you try to replicate a ciem build as a universal (or vice versa) how do you adjust the tube lengths? Or does the whole sound signature change so much with the changed resonances etc. that you need to test and experiment?
> 
> I got some B2s professionally reshelled a while back (don’t have them anymore) and they kept the original structure and made the ciem canal a big wide open (but deep) passage. It did sound different, but was very nice. At the time I didn’t have a way to measure it and the time spent getting it done meant I couldn’t be sure of the differences I thought I heard


I've never actually used a real SWFK so can't really compare but the DWEK didn't blow me away or anything, that might just be my implementation tough. It's definitely not bad at all. Some cheap tweeters I want to try are knowles RAD-33518. Hi-Fri audio (he's on youtube and facebook) recommended them to me and they're only $3.50 a piece on taobao.


----------



## stegeoc

slakoth453 said:


> I've never actually used a real SWFK so can't really compare but the DWEK didn't blow me away or anything, that might just be my implementation tough. It's definitely not bad at all. Some cheap tweeters I want to try are knowles RAD-33518. Hi-Fri audio (he's on youtube and facebook) recommended them to me and they're only $3.50 a piece on taobao.


Interesting.  That is cheap and it comes in a pre-soldered version too which is nice.  Can't see the FR but a quick Google shows Fiio FH3 has one of these and the reviews look good on AliExpress, definitely worth a play


----------



## slakoth453

stegeoc said:


> Interesting.  That is cheap and it comes in a pre-soldered version too which is nice.  Can't see the FR but a quick Google shows Fiio FH3 has one of these and the reviews look good on AliExpress, definitely worth a play


Mangird tea uses them. This graph is also from Hi-Fri. The description is wrong, he meant RAD not SWFK.


----------



## piotrus-g

FYI RAD is just WBFK-30095 designed for Knwoles' automated production line, there should be little to no variations.


----------



## stegeoc

Finished recapping one of my first builds. More work than I expected to get the wood nice and thin and flat, but it does look nice and clean. I put some Lack 3 on the bottom (and then sanded it down) and a couple of layers of clear resin on top after shaping.

I finally used the airbrush again and it worked no problem. Got a couple of specks in one side during curing but suspect that could have been from the dusty air. I think my earlier problem was with contaminated and old Lack 3. This time I used Egger which is more liquidy too and that may have helped.

The imperfections and bubbles in the old shell show up really clearly now and it would have been easier to print a whole new shell but I wanted to keep this one

Before:




After:


----------



## slakoth453

stegeoc said:


> Finished recapping one of my first builds. More work than I expected to get the wood nice and thin and flat, but it does look nice and clean. I put some Lack 3 on the bottom (and then sanded it down) and a couple of layers of clear resin on top after shaping.
> 
> I finally used the airbrush again and it worked no problem. Got a couple of specks in one side during curing but suspect that could have been from the dusty air. I think my earlier problem was with contaminated and old Lack 3. This time I used Egger which is more liquidy too and that may have helped.
> 
> ...


Very nice! Love the color.


----------



## kmmm

Noob question: how will a DD behave after it is enclosed in the shell compared to just attached to a coupler? Will there be large differences?


----------



## piotrus-g

Depends on a lot of factors - size of the DD and venting, but basically a fully closed shell will lead to lack of bass.


----------



## kmmm

Ok. So you will have plenty of bass before you seal up the shell, and then you bring it back by venting? I like to tune receivers, tube length, dampers and crossovers whilst connected to a coupler. When I’m satisfied I place everything in the shell. Never done DDs though…ordered me some to try…you think I could use the same approach with DDs in the mix?


----------



## piotrus-g (Nov 29, 2022)

kmmm said:


> Ok. So you will have plenty of bass before you seal up the shell, and then you bring it back by venting? I like to tune receivers, tube length, dampers and crossovers whilst connected to a coupler. When I’m satisfied I place everything in the shell. Never done DDs though…ordered me some to try…you think I could use the same approach with DDs in the mix?


It's different if you tune with front venting and back venting. If you only do back venting then from the graph above you'd end up with volume around 102.5dB at 20Hz. If you combine it with front venting you'll loose sub-bass completely. It's very hard to explain without showing graph examples of each instance. If you tune outside of the shell then your final closed shell IEM will sound much different unless you open the back vent on the shell


----------



## slakoth453

Front vents prevent driver flex and pressure build up so I always use them. You will sacrifice some amount of bass extension so you have to use a high value damper on the vent. If you're working with normal tubing a driver cap with a hole in it will work as a front vent. Definitely make sure to add a rear vent also. If you do these things the response shouldn't change too much once you close the shell.


----------



## kmmm

Thanks. My plan was to use two of these as bass driver. But open for suggestions. As mentioned; I never used DDs. 2x28ua + E50. I did already build this with 2x38D1xj. Really satisfied with this. But though I would try DD bass to check if hybrids live up to the hype. Or rather; if I’m capable of making a descent pair😅


----------



## piotrus-g

slakoth453 said:


> Front vents prevent driver flex and pressure build up so I always use them. You will sacrifice some amount of bass extension so you have to use a high value damper on the vent. If you're working with normal tubing a driver cap with a hole in it will work as a front vent. Definitely make sure to add a rear vent also. If you do these things the response shouldn't change too much once you close the shell.


Again, it really depends, I have worked with 10mm DDs which didn't flex and 6mm DDs that did with no front vent


----------



## slakoth453

piotrus-g said:


> Again, it really depends, I have worked with 10mm DDs which didn't flex and 6mm DDs that did with no front vent


True, I also had some that didn't flex. I still like using vents because I can't stand pressure build up.


----------



## kmmm

slakoth453 said:


> Front vents prevent driver flex and pressure build up so I always use them. You will sacrifice some amount of bass extension so you have to use a high value damper on the vent. If you're working with normal tubing a driver cap with a hole in it will work as a front vent. Definitely make sure to add a rear vent also. If you do these things the response shouldn't change too much once you close the shell.


What exactly do you mean by front vent? pics?


----------



## slakoth453

kmmm said:


> What exactly do you mean by front vent? pics?


Like what I did here. You may have noticed how single dynamics usually have a little hole in the front cavity.



This is what I meant earlier when I said you can use a cap with a hole in it.


----------



## kmmm

I see! Never noticed this. Does the air from the front vent end up in the shell, together with the air from the back vent? and then you release it with a hole/vent in the shell?
Sorry, slow learner here... Quite impressive how you managed to print that thin tube from the DD with out clogging it. Especially with translucent resin. I guess resin calibration is the key...


----------



## piotrus-g

kmmm said:


> I see! Never noticed this. Does the air from the front vent end up in the shell, together with the air from the back vent? and then you release it with a hole/vent in the shell?
> Sorry, slow learner here... Quite impressive how you managed to print that thin tube from the DD with out clogging it. Especially with translucent resin. I guess resin calibration is the key...


You can do that, or you can separate the venting chambers.


----------



## mattmatt

piotrus-g said:


> You can do that, or you can separate the venting chambers.


By separating venting chambers, what do you mean?


----------



## discus123

I'm finally completed my 1st hybrid iem, it's lasted almost 10 months.  My config is tusq 10mm DD / sonion 37ap015 / sonion 2389 / knowles 31736. Two bores can change damper, 10mm DD have front and back vent, 2 dips switch selector with 4 pre-set sound signature.  All parts including splitted / joint tubes, face plate, shells are printed by 3D printer.  I used Nova high transparency clear UV resin ----> it is really difficult to use for a beginner like me.  I have asked Nova supports for help, but come out is still need to try by yourself.










The Nova HTC UV resin needs a longer exposure time but then the printed model become bigger and it needs to resize the model again and again to print out the correct size.










I have made 3 sets for the same setup, 1 for my uncle and 1 for my nice, but sadly they all moved to UK already, B4 we are neighbour.  I have to courier it to them.


----------



## piotrus-g

mattmatt said:


> By separating venting chambers, what do you mean?


Make sure the front is not connected in any way to the back


----------



## kha1id

Is connecting only a parallel capacitor to the driver work as low pass filter properly?


----------



## Wgibson

kha1id said:


> Is connecting only a parallel capacitor to the driver work as low pass filter properly?



It will low pass all other drivers in parallel unless you add more components to the circuit


----------



## stegeoc (Dec 2, 2022)

This venting business is quite interesting and allows far greater tuning options than I’d imagined. I had a half-built hybrid lying around that I couldn’t previously tune properly and front-venting seems to have solved that problem. What I found remarkable was that by adjusting the size of the front-vent between the size of a pin prick and completely blocked varied the bass from no bass at all to far too much bass. Everything in between is possible so long as you have the patience to keep experimenting.

Closing the shell drops the bass again (but not completely) which comes back with a small back-vent. This was with a shell that had very little air in it, so with a more open shell I guess there could be less of an impact of the back-vent.

I’ve only build one side so far so not sure how it sounds, but the FR looks promising (if I can replicate it on the other side). Thanks for all the tips!

One afterthought about separating the vent chambers - does that lead to a more secure fit?  Do through-vented iems tend to come loose as there is no air seal? Mine are customs so I hope they will be ok but I'd be more concerned with universals


----------



## stegeoc

discus123 said:


> I'm finally completed my 1st hybrid iem, it's lasted almost 10 months.  My config is tusq 10mm DD / sonion 37ap015 / sonion 2389 / knowles 31736. Two bores can change damper, 10mm DD have front and back vent, 2 dips switch selector with 4 pre-set sound signature.  All parts including splitted / joint tubes, face plate, shells are printed by 3D printer.  I used Nova high transparency clear UV resin ----> it is really difficult to use for a beginner like me.  I have asked Nova supports for help, but come out is still need to try by yourself.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow..  That looks amazing.  I have no idea how you squeezed all that in so neatly.  One question - you put a damper on the back-vent.  Is that just to stop stuff getting in there or does it affect the sound?


----------



## stegeoc

kha1id said:


> Is connecting only a parallel capacitor to the driver work as low pass filter properly?


My in-progress (vented) hybrid has a simple low-pass using a cap in parallel with the DD and with that in series with the rest of the circuit (that also has a resistor in parallel with it to tune the mix). 

As the frequency rises the cap reduces in impedance so the DD is bypassed/shorted and most of the signal is sent to the rest of the circuit.  So as well as being a low pass on the DD, it is also a treble boost for the rest of the circuit.

I can't find the posts right now, but it has been discussed in this thread.  The most natural way of combining drivers is to add them in parallel though, and when you do that you'll need a resistor in series with your low-passed driver or it will low pass the other drivers as @Wgibson said


----------



## slakoth453

stegeoc said:


> This venting business is quite interesting and allows far greater tuning options than I’d imagined. I had a half-built hybrid lying around that I couldn’t previously tune properly and front-venting seems to have solved that problem. What I found remarkable was that by adjusting the size of the front-vent between the size of a pin prick and completely blocked varied the bass from no bass at all to far too much bass. Everything in between is possible so long as you have the patience to keep experimenting.
> 
> Closing the shell drops the bass again (but not completely) which comes back with a small back-vent. This was with a shell that had very little air in it, so with a more open shell I guess there could be less of an impact of the back-vent.
> 
> ...


I haven't found fit to be a problem, lots of commercial IEMs are vented. If you add an internal front vent but no rear vent that will help with driver flex (and tuning like you said) but you do get very uncomforable pressure build up. This is less of an issue with CIEMs but for universals using silicone tips you always want some sort of pressure relief if you ask me.


----------



## dhruvmeena96

Fat Larry said:


> I'm just getting interested in building some IEMs. Really looking forward to it as i keep not quite finding what i want in the market. Namely very small shells and high technicalities. Which leads me to  >
> 
> Has anyone tried these planar drivers?
> 
> ...


As big of dd you can comfortably put in and as good of a lowpass you can do.... Depends on implementation and better acoustic impedance of large surface area
 CNT, and weird diaphragm type only show advantage in uppermid and high high frequency. And the choice for specific DD diaphragm is used so that a simple crossover can be added without any resonance occuring in uppermid



Xymordos said:


> Wow nice! I'm a big fan of eAudio drivers


Hahahahahahhaha



slakoth453 said:


> Not sure about exact tube lengths because I haven't figured out how to measure splines in fusion. The ED (DEG) has a green damper at the nozzle and the SWFK (DWEK) has an orange one at the bend of the tube.


Noicely done my brother


----------



## stegeoc

Does anyone here have a simple answer for how bends in tubes affect the resonant peaks or if they don't?   I thought that it didn't matter too much as long as it was smooth, but now I'm not sure.

The purple tube below is my right iem, which worked ok, but the gold tube is the same tube from the left iem (overlaid on the right one for comparison).  There are some slight differences in the tube bends (sharper turns) but the lengths are the same.  That left iem has a significant dip at about 3kz and doesn't really match the right.  Could the problem be the tube shape?  Or is the problem likely to be elsewhere?  I'm worried I'll destroy the driver if I move it to a reprinted shell so don't want to do that unless there's a good chance it will help.  Thanks!


----------



## Fat Larry

dhruvmeena96 said:


> As big of dd you can comfortably put in and as good of a lowpass you can do.... Depends on implementation and better acoustic impedance of large surface area
> CNT, and weird diaphragm type only show advantage in uppermid and high high frequency. And the choice for specific DD diaphragm is used so that a simple crossover can be added without any resonance occuring in uppermid
> 
> 
> ...



CNT DDs are the best available to the public at the moment?


----------



## BobbyKa

Hello!

I'm new here, new to ciem and about to make orders for all I need.
I want to do the ciem for stage use for me and my bandmates (Rock. guitar, keys, drums, bass, vocals). Until now we use universal iem (Shure SE535).
The goal is to make comfortable replacements that can sonically keep up with those universal ones. Of course taste differs, but i am talking about the "league" they are playing in. They don't need to sound identically to the SE535.
For beeing new to ciem, I want to start with GV-32830. As this seems relatively easy and they should fit my needs.
I read a lot about ciem the last weeks but surely not all. So now i got a few questions left and hope to find some answers here:

1. Wax for dipping the impressions: Should I prefer Dreve dipping wax (https://otoplastikshop.dreve.de/otoplastiken/paraffin-dipping-wax-4287.html) or these plates: https://otoplastikshop.dreve.de/otoplastikde/modellierwachs-4296.html ?

2. vents: do you prefer to leave the vents open or closed?

3. tubes: at the moment im planing with 1.0x2.0 tubes at the ends and in between 2.0x3.0 tubes with the dampers. same on tweeter and woofer. because I saw someone doing it this way. is this a common method?

4. wire to connect driver with socket: do you recommend this type: https://bit.ly/3VvvUVP or this one: https://bit.ly/3B8fvyu ?

5. colors: I will use Dreve Fotoplast S IO transparent. Do I need some special colors or can I use simple resin colors like this: https://bit.ly/3VvwUt3 ?

6. flakes: any recomendation for flakes to mix with the Fotoplast? Or is this a bad idea because  the Fotoplast might not cure everywhere because the flakes don't let uv light through?

Thank you all for all the information shared in this awesome thread!


----------



## stegeoc

BobbyKa said:


> Hello!
> 
> I'm new here, new to ciem and about to make orders for all I need.
> I want to do the ciem for stage use for me and my bandmates (Rock. guitar, keys, drums, bass, vocals). Until now we use universal iem (Shure SE535).
> ...


Good luck, GV sounds great and is easy to use.  I'll have a go at answering these but I'm still a beginner so others will know better.

1.  I just used cheap local paraffin wax, I can't imagine it makes a huge difference.  You'll be sanding it down later anyway.
2. I had 2 open and 2 closed I think.  You can measure/listen and adjust to taste before you close it up
3. I used 2mm ID tubes.  I would imagine you'd lose some treble if you used 1mm ID tubing for the tweeter.  Maybe that is desirable to some.  With 2mm ID tubing all the way you'll have more options for damper placement
4. I don't think wires will make much difference, if you're going to be able to see them then take that into account
5. I had no problem using normal resin dyes.  Of course exposure times will vary so you'll need to experiment.
6. Not tried flakes but added some black mica for one pair.  Don't recall having any problems with exposing it and the specs do hide any imperfections/bubbles quite well as a bonus.  I'd say you should be fine with flakes, unless you go over the top


----------



## kmmm (Dec 5, 2022)

stegeoc said:


> Does anyone here have a simple answer for how bends in tubes affect the resonant peaks or if they don't?


That is interesting if it does...I'd like to know your findings. But I guess a "significant" dip (at 3k) will be related to other issues? Sounds like a phase issue to me:
If the tubes are just slightly different length or the dampers are placed slightly different you will get mismatch. I guess you have checked polarity?
You could also measure the components in the crossover to check if these are matched. They tend to not be...
Measure the drivers one by one on each side and compare. Which drivers are you using?
And if you decide to remove the drivers you'll be fine. You won't destroy them. just be careful. I do it all the time


----------



## mattmatt

stegeoc said:


> Does anyone here have a simple answer for how bends in tubes affect the resonant peaks or if they don't?   I thought that it didn't matter too much as long as it was smooth, but now I'm not sure.
> 
> The purple tube below is my right iem, which worked ok, but the gold tube is the same tube from the left iem (overlaid on the right one for comparison).  There are some slight differences in the tube bends (sharper turns) but the lengths are the same.  That left iem has a significant dip at about 3kz and doesn't really match the right.  Could the problem be the tube shape?  Or is the problem likely to be elsewhere?  I'm worried I'll destroy the driver if I move it to a reprinted shell so don't want to do that unless there's a good chance it will help.  Thanks!


I *think* that sharp bends acts as a damper.


----------



## BobbyKa

stegeoc said:


> Good luck, GV sounds great and is easy to use.  I'll have a go at answering these but I'm still a beginner so others will know better.
> 
> 1.  I just used cheap local paraffin wax, I can't imagine it makes a huge difference.  You'll be sanding it down later anyway.
> 2. I had 2 open and 2 closed I think.  You can measure/listen and adjust to taste before you close it up
> ...


Thank you for helping!

So i will order 1 and 2mm ID tubes and try to use only the 2mm ones. hope to have enough space at the end of the shell
Also I am going to order a Dayton iMM-6 for measuring. Didn't plan that before.


----------



## Wgibson

Get as many kinds of tube as possible. If you are ordering frome some place with tubing, grab some. They all have different kink resistance, stretch differently, nest together in a nozzle differently. Changing tube size can help deal with driver peaks.


----------



## stegeoc

mattmatt said:


> I *think* that sharp bends acts as a damper.


Yes, this seems to have been the case.  I created a new shell with an exact duplicate tube (from the other side) and the problem went away.  The oddity was seen even with only the main 1723 driver in the circuit which ruled out polarity or crossover differences.  It wasn't massive, maybe -3db or so, but enough to stop it matching nicely.

I am recycling the drivers from the first iem I built and adding the vented DDs as discussed recently.  The BA was buried up to its head so was difficult to remove but I broke the shell around it bit by bit and got to it safely in the end.  I've started fixing drivers in with resin rather than glue and that really helps when it comes to getting them out. 

I put the curves in the tubes as there wasn't enough room for the length I wanted otherwise.  I wasn't expecting an effect on the sound but I guess the sharp bend did introduce some unpredictable reflections.  Anyway, all good now I think.  Cheers


----------



## stegeoc

BobbyKa said:


> Thank you for helping!
> 
> So i will order 1 and 2mm ID tubes and try to use only the 2mm ones. hope to have enough space at the end of the shell
> Also I am going to order a Dayton iMM-6 for measuring. Didn't plan that before.


Remember that if you use 2mm ID tubes, you can always slip some short pieces of that 1mm ID tubing into the canal and see if you like it. It can definitely tame peaks but I don't think the GV is particularly peaky


----------



## mt877

Has anyone built a good set of bullet IEMs? Just trying to have some DIY fun and I'd like to put a couple my used 9mm casings to good use.
I did the usual google search and there's a couple of old build instructions, but I think the recommended drivers aren't even available anymore.
Any guidance and currently available BOM is appreciated. Thanks!


----------



## miniAU

What kind of resistor and capacitor would be suitable? Looking on digikey mainly.


----------



## BobbyKa

At the moment, there are two things i am unsure with:

1. Most CIEM I see dont have ear wax filters at the end of the tube. I see that the place there might often be to small for filters on all tubes. But how do you deal with it? i guess the dampers are too deep inside the tube to reach all the way with a normal cleaning stick. how do you deal with it? isn't it a big problem? some friends have often ear wax in their shure se iems.

2. maybe a silly question, but i haven't seen or read it yet: how to make letters or logos in the faceplate? printing on foil, cut out, put on faceplate and fill with lack 3? cut with vinyl cutter? or make a template (e.g. with vinyl cutter), fill with colour, remove template, finish with laque?


----------



## tonybuild

Hi,have question.

I never used Sonion 38AJ007Mi/8a.
Because i dont know how to make crossover with it . Still kinda new guy in all this stuff. 
Please if any one can give me good advice how to make crossover ill be grateful


----------



## dhruvmeena96

tonybuild said:


> Hi,have question.
> 
> I never used Sonion 38AJ007Mi/8a.
> Because i dont know how to make crossover with it . Still kinda new guy in all this stuff.
> Please if any one can give me good advice how to make crossover ill be grateful


D1XJ is better


----------



## tonybuild

dhruvmeena96 said:


> D1XJ is better


Why is better?
Can you please tell me how to wire this driver? 
Thank you


----------



## dhruvmeena96

tonybuild said:


> Why is better?
> Can you please tell me how to wire this driver?
> Thank you



It has accupass which makes it roll off like subwoofer 
And pretty hard...

But never avoid electrical crossover....

To wire it
https://www.sonion.com/product/38d1xj007mi-8a/

Download pdf


----------



## swtnate

tonybuild said:


> Hi,have question.
> 
> I never used Sonion 38AJ007Mi/8a.
> Because i dont know how to make crossover with it . Still kinda new guy in all this stuff.
> Please if any one can give me good advice how to make crossover ill be grateful


Can’t really offer a crossover point unless you/ we know what drivers it is being paired with.


----------



## YungOmbat

mt877 said:


> Has anyone built a good set of bullet IEMs? Just trying to have some DIY fun and I'd like to put a couple my used 9mm casings to good use.
> I did the usual google search and there's a couple of old build instructions, but I think the recommended drivers aren't even available anymore.
> Any guidance and currently available BOM is appreciated. Thanks!


lol imagine that being a new iem trend. NEWLY MADE BULLET IEMS WOW WHAT A REVOLUTION LMAO


----------



## mt877 (Dec 12, 2022)

YungOmbat said:


> lol imagine that being a new iem trend. NEWLY MADE BULLET IEMS WOW WHAT A REVOLUTION LMAO


It is an old trend. There were a couple of companies that sold them. From what I could tell sound was not that good. I thought it would be interesting to try making a few that might sound good if tuned well. Actually there are many 'bullet' shape IEM on the market, they are not made from real bullet cases of course, just the general shape. One example is Intime IEM. They are made in Japan and have piezo and DD drivers and have very good sound. Anyway, I found a few more resources that have some build information that could help me to have some fun with this.

Edit: Here's another example of a well regarded 'bullet' shape IEM: Technics EAH-TZ700


----------



## kha1id

Does anybody tried to use HODVTEC/33AJ007i/9 like two independent driver? Is it an efficient setting like what they perform in parallel?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

kha1id said:


> Does anybody tried to use HODVTEC/33AJ007i/9 like two independent driver? Is it an efficient setting like what they perform in parallel?


I have done it split, parallel and series....
I will suggest go series with these as you get better loudness control.
Splitting will be pain as adjusting crossover would be very hard


----------



## kha1id

dhruvmeena96 said:


> I have done it split, parallel and series....
> I will suggest go series with these as you get better loudness control.
> Splitting will be pain as adjusting crossover would be very hard



I see.... thank you!
Was wondering if I can use it as 1 bass + 1 mid
E.g. HODVTEC 31618 half of it low pass at 4-500 another one as mid by cap+rez to high pass at 2-3k
ideally avoid the peak of mid....


----------



## musmecca

tonybuild said:


> Why is better?
> Can you please tell me how to wire this driver?
> Thank you


The accupass rolls off very well making it suitable for drop in with other ba's. I've used it recently with a knowles HE....simply parallel, no crossover or filter on the sonion...just a longer 16 mm 2 tube. My he had a 330 filter at the ba nozzle..12mm tube. Very easy and great sounding with plenty of bass.


----------



## swtnate

kha1id said:


> Does anybody tried to use HODVTEC/33AJ007i/9 like two independent driver? Is it an efficient setting like what they perform in parallel?


In every build I've done, all drivers are wired in parallel.  I wouldn't use either of these dual woofers to produce good results in the upper mid to high range.  As you mentioned, avoiding the peak.  With stock balanced armatures it is not recommended to do anything more than a 1st order crossover due to electrical phase compensation you will have to engineer.  It's easiest and more preferred to use a driver that is built to cover the spectrum you are trying to cover.  Nothing of good quality will come from either of these drivers above say, 2k.  This is why we use external frequency manipulation such as dampers, resonators, etc.


----------



## swtnate

musmecca said:


> The accupass rolls off very well making it suitable for drop in with other ba's. I've used it recently with a knowles HE....simply parallel, no crossover or filter on the sonion...just a longer 16 mm 2 tube. My he had a 330 filter at the ba nozzle..12mm tube. Very easy and great sounding with plenty of bass.


The built in accupass is worth the little bit extra as it increases the amount of room available in the canal for custom IEMs.  Just attach a #16 acoustic tube (2mmODx1mmID) and your done.  A simple series resistor will work for volume reduction, or in some cases, an L-Pad.  With the accupass though you don't get the peak pushed up the spectrum with the series resistor like you do with the 33 or the 37 or the HOD.


----------



## tonybuild

Is this a lpad for sonion 38dixj ?


----------



## musmecca

tonybuild said:


> Is this a lpad for sonion 38dixj ?


Yep...it's an L-pad. Dhruv helped me with this one a while back....couldn't find my post but I had my schematic!


----------



## tonybuild

Thank you .


----------



## talyak (Dec 15, 2022)

so, i got a few questions.
im working on a project that is basically audiophile hearing aids. basically im building something similar to a reciever in canal hearing aid as a pair of tws iems. so, what im curious about is whether you folks have any advice on single ba or minimally sized multi-ba sets that would sit deep in the ear canal with a molded shell. i need the mems microphone i will be using to sit deep in the conch to get closest to natural pinna gain. so both small diameter and short length is important.
im currently looking at the rab-32257 with green filters for an er4xr like sound. but id love it if i could make something that has greater technical ability for critical listening and mastering as im a musician. anyway, any advice on compact options would be greatly appreciated!
im also curious whether anyone has info on the symphonium helios or hidition viento in terms of drivers. im curious as to what secret sauce theyve got to trade blows with 8+ ba or tribrid iems, other than the 4 way crossover?
lastly, im curious whether any folks have tried to use individual dacs for each group of drivers to create a digital crossover system?


----------



## talyak (Dec 15, 2022)

basically im trying to make something with similar or better technical performance to the blessing 2 dusks, with decent coherence in a formfactor that can fit inside my inner ear canal. price is no object, and im pretty sure in a pinch ill be able to make them with the crossover circuit inside the behind the ear hooks of the tws iems. so the main goal is to find a design that has a diameter of less than 0.5cm, doesnt need long acoustic tubes, and has decent performance. obviously im totally down for some experimentation, so suggestions are welcome even if they arent tested.
edit: sorry for the double post. havent posted on a forum in a while lol


----------



## musmecca

talyak said:


> so, i got a few questions.
> im working on a project that is basically audiophile hearing aids. basically im building something similar to a reciever in canal hearing aid as a pair of tws iems. so, what im curious about is whether you folks have any advice on single ba or minimally sized multi-ba sets that would sit deep in the ear canal with a molded shell. i need the mems microphone i will be using to sit deep in the conch to get closest to natural pinna gain. so both small diameter and short length is important.
> im currently looking at the rab-32257 with green filters for an er4xr like sound. but id love it if i could make something that has greater technical ability for critical listening and mastering as im a musician. anyway, any advice on compact options would be greatly appreciated!
> im also curious whether anyone has info on the symphonium helios or hidition viento in terms of drivers. im curious as to what secret sauce theyve got to trade blows with 8+ ba or tribrid iems, other than the 4 way crossover?
> lastly, im curious whether any folks have tried to use individual dacs for each group of drivers to create a digital crossover system?


Ive done something that may be of interest...I have used a Rab 32257....5 MM tube length, NO DAMPER,  removed the vent cover. In parallel, I used a ci22295 with a 1mm ID tube, 20+ length (diffuse field) with a green damper ON the ba spout. This let me get the rab into the canal and run the ci from far away. I didn't use crossovers or a damper on the rab...I used diameters and tube length where possible. Very easy but very effective.


----------



## talyak

musmecca said:


> Ive done something that may be of interest...I have used a Rab 32257....5 MM tube length, NO DAMPER,  removed the vent cover. In parallel, I used a ci22295 with a 1mm ID tube, 20+ length (diffuse field) with a green damper ON the ba spout. This let me get the rab into the canal and run the ci from far away. I didn't use crossovers or a damper on the rab...I used diameters and tube length where possible. Very easy but very effective.


hmmmm interesting. i think the ci would have to be in the canal also for my plan to work. but it's an interesting idea to play around with.


----------



## talyak (Dec 15, 2022)

welp. pretty sure it wouldnt be possible to fit the ci-22955 in the canal (unless i had an unusually large ear canal, which i do not lol). maximising the natural pinna gain is kinda optimal for best positional tracking in hearing aids, but the trade-off is the severely limited space for drivers. i guess thats why most reciever in ear hearing aids use a single small full-range ba. if i accept that im going to fill up the conch i may be able to tetris a 3-4 driver design. any recommendations for a lows/mids/highs combo?
edit: i think im gonna try making 2 versions, one with the rab-32257 only and inside canal design, and a second one that has multiple drivers but fills the conch. still not certain on which drivers to use tho.


----------



## BadgerMcBadger

is agar agar alone good for making negatives or one must mix it with gelatine to get good results


----------



## talyak (Dec 15, 2022)

was doing some research, i may be able to fit a savant (edit: specifically as in the ED29689 and ED30761 combo) in the ear canal. really gotta get an impression of my ears to check actual fitment.
regardless, more options to test is good. i think i should be able to make them modular, so i can make a few different models.


----------



## talyak (Dec 15, 2022)

is the fed-30048 no longer available? i cant find them on aliexpress. been reading through a bunch of old recipes and i wanna try the finale 2 after reading all the folks gushing over it lol
edit: nevermind, i see i can get them from mouser


----------



## talyak

hi @dhruvmeena96 ive been reading through some of your older posts. i saw you mention that the finale 2 is an old design now. do you have any recommendations for 1 or 2 ba designs that are fairly modern?
im thinking of giving your perfected RAB design a go as well. so im particularly interested in a 2 ba design i can cross compare with the RAB and my blessing 2 dusks.


----------



## talyak

does anyone know where to get 3mm ID iem nozzles? im having a hard time finding any nozzles on aliexpress. (i would complain about 3d printer folks filling up the "nozzle" results, but im very much one of them lol)
also if anyone knows where to get 1.2mm ID 2mm OD tubing, that would be helpful. i can use 1mm ID in a pinch, but rab-p calls for 1.2mm apparently.


----------



## Wgibson

"Sound mouth" is a good search term for nozzles


----------



## talyak (Dec 16, 2022)

Wgibson said:


> "Sound mouth" is a good search term for nozzles


i didnt manage to find any with that search term, but i did find some with "earphone mouth" and even more with "earphone sound hole", so big thanks for the suggestion!

im gonna order some 3.37mm ID ones. a little larger than the 3mm recommended. but they look good

edit: now it looks like aliexpress was just being an arse, cos i found some with the sound nozzle in the title


----------



## Wgibson

Can't sort by lowest price, aliexpress will show you what it wants to show you. Find a decent deal and shop the rest of that store is my usual strategy


----------



## talyak

Wgibson said:


> Can't sort by lowest price, aliexpress will show you what it wants to show you. Find a decent deal and shop the rest of that store is my usual strategy


i know lol. best match was taking one look at the word "nozzle" and throwing hundreds of listings for 3d printer nozzles. ignoring the fact that the actual search was "sound nozzle" or "iem nozzle"


----------



## talyak (Dec 17, 2022)

the finale 2 doesnt have the flatest of midranges. i was wondering what you folks think of adding a bit more of a crossover circuit to attenuate the ed-30761. try and push it more into bass shelf territory instead of covering up a lot of the lower midrange? either that or adjusting the sound path/damping to give it more of a low-pass effect.
i dont yet have a measurement rig, but id like to make one sometime next year. so at least until then, im wondering if any of you folks tried some of this stuff?

edit: (im also low-key curious as to whether anyone has done a rab-p like build for the fed)
edit2: (oh wait, thats basically dhruv's final 1)


----------



## talyak

i think a first or second order crossover at 150hz might be enough to eliminate its interference in the lower mids. let the fed shine all the way to the end of the mids. i may be misunderstanding the purpose of the ed tho. its fr just looks all bass and lower mids. i feel like it may be better to swap it out for something with more of a deeper bass/subbass focus. maybe the sonion 38d1x subwoofers. tho that may be too big for my purposes anyway, depending on whether i go for entirely in the ear canal or partly in the conch design. i may do a partly in the conch design anyway cos that would be more accomodating for the long length of the fed's tubing.


----------



## musmecca

talyak said:


> i think a first or second order crossover at 150hz might be enough to eliminate its interference in the lower mids. let the fed shine all the way to the end of the mids. i may be misunderstanding the purpose of the ed tho. its fr just looks all bass and lower mids. i feel like it may be better to swap it out for something with more of a deeper bass/subbass focus. maybe the sonion 38d1x subwoofers. tho that may be too big for my purposes anyway, depending on whether i go for entirely in the ear canal or partly in the conch design. i may do a partly in the conch design anyway cos that would be more accomodating for the long length of the fed's tubing.


I have built all the MASM designs and they are very accurate. For my taste though and in my opinion only, I found I needed to add some bass in order to achieve what I wanted. This isn't a knock on the designs, it's simply my preference.  Thats when I began taking CI22955's and putting a green filter at the spout then attaching a long 1 mm tube as a diffuse field.  I did this on all the designs where I could and the results give much more impact on the bottom end.


----------



## talyak (Dec 17, 2022)

musmecca said:


> I have built all the MASM designs and they are very accurate. For my taste though and in my opinion only, I found I needed to add some bass in order to achieve what I wanted. This isn't a knock on the designs, it's simply my preference.  Thats when I began taking CI22955's and putting a green filter at the spout then attaching a long 1 mm tube as a diffuse field.  I did this on all the designs where I could and the results give much more impact on the bottom end.


yeah. the tuning looks good on the finale 2, its just that it doesnt really approach the harman/ief neutral mids that i currently have a bit of a preference for. at least according to one persons measurements, it starts rising slowly at around 1khz, whereas id like to keep it to a bass shelf. so maybe going with ci22955s or 38d1x instead of the ed-30761 might push all that into a shelf, leaving the mids flatter. while giving more of a distinct kick in the bass. my two daily driver iems rn are the blessing 2 dusk and the letshuoer s12. the blessing 2 dusks sound waaaay more natural to my ears. (tho i managed to damage them, blockng the DD in the left ear), hence im eventually aiming for a tuning that is closer to them. plus im defo not adverse to some heavy in your face bass lol. just as long as it stays in the bass region.

edit: this is assuming the lower mids are decent on the fed. which i cant find a definitive answer on reading through this thread


----------



## talyak

the big downside i see with both the 22955 and 38d1x is that they are the larger sizes of ba drivers, which just arent likely gonna fit inside an ear canal. so its really weighing up that trade-off. losing the bass that i can feel in my soul, or losing the size aspect that would make transparency mode, on my finished tws design, incredible. now if i can a decent subwoofer that matches the ed30781 in physical size, id be golden. but as bass is all about moving air, im not sure thats possible


----------



## talyak (Dec 17, 2022)

now, with a crossover working as a low-pass for the ed-30781 and an L-pad lowering the relative volume of the fed, it may be possible to get some decent subbass in the same formfactor. but id be worried about how the ed holds up once raised to normal listening levels. it may end up distorted as all ****. or just have nasty bass characteristics. i dunno. either way, im not adverse to getting my hands dirty with electronics. last year i designed my own wireless steno keyboard, so im fairly familiar with kicad and circuit design in general. plus im already working on the tws aspects of this device, and let me tell ya, that is gonna suck to solder.

edit: i think for now i will just go with the standard final 2 and then do an alternate circuit for it once i get a measurement rig


----------



## Wgibson

You can get pretty far with a Dayton imm6 microphone, $30-40usd, easy to set up with REW (Room EQ Wizard). Pretty much necessary in my opinion.


----------



## talyak

Wgibson said:


> You can get pretty far with a Dayton imm6 microphone, $30-40usd, easy to set up with REW (Room EQ Wizard). Pretty much necessary in my opinion.


wouldnt you still need a coupler to get the occluded effect and measure iems?


----------



## Wgibson (Dec 18, 2022)

Piece of vinyl tube, adjust length (volume) till your coupling resonance is where you want (8-10khz). Any measurement is better than nothing, at least you can be sure they match left and right.

Edit: I ended up using a cut down kz starlirline tip to fit tight in the vinyl tube, and then you adjust insertion depth to hit your preferred resonant peak.


----------



## talyak (Dec 18, 2022)

Wgibson said:


> Piece of vinyl tube, adjust length (volume) till your coupling resonance is where you want (8-10khz). Any measurement is better than nothing, at least you can be sure they match left and right.


awesome! nice suggestion. the dayton imm6 is a little expensive where i am (like 2/3rds the price of just getting an iec 711 knockoff on aliexpress), but ive got other full-range mics i can use. i can also calibrate on my blessing 2 dusk, so ill test until i get a result similar to a reviewers measurements, then will be able to test the rab-p etc.
edit: nevermind, found a store that sells them cheap enough
edit2: ive already got two of the apple dongles (usb c not lightning, but its almost as good), so this will be perfect


----------



## BobbyKa

Wgibson said:


> Piece of vinyl tube, adjust length (volume) till your coupling resonance is where you want (8-10khz). Any measurement is better than nothing, at least you can be sure they match left and right.


Sorry, I am a total noob to this. Got an imm6 but didn't tried yet. Also need to decide which software to use (Windows on laptop or Android on mobile. How to meassure the coupling resonance?


----------



## talyak (Dec 18, 2022)

BobbyKa said:


> Sorry, I am a total noob to this. Got an imm6 but didn't tried yet. Also need to decide which software to use (Windows on laptop or Android on mobile. How to meassure the coupling resonance?


searching imm-6 on google/youtube will give some good results on how to use it

edit: the resonance should show up as a large peak in the treble. you just vary the insertion depth to get it in the realm of 8k-10k and youll have decent measurements for everything to the left of that peak. Room EQ Wizard seems the preferred software for beginners

edit2: the basic rule of FR measurement is that results dont really compare directly between different people/testing setups. so its best to measure some IEMs you like to see how they show up on your measurements, then compare new IEMs to that as long as you keep your testing method consistent.


----------



## talyak

im thinking that because the rab-p uses 3mm OD tubing, and i have some triple flange tips with a 3-4mm ID, i could have the tubing of the rab extend into the bore of the triple flange tips. allowing for the iem to only have the connector and half the driver sticking further out than the tips. the total length of the rab-p tubing is almost the same as the tips ive got, so i could probs ditch having a normal nozzle entirely. allowing for a super deep insertion like the etymotics, while keeping the rab-p tuning. the etymotics tend to basically disappear into your ear canal if its long enough, so i should be able to get the full pinna effect on the transparency mode. we shall see if the actual sound quality is up to the standards im look for tho

i might also try the fed drivers in a similar format. see if i like that ferrofluid sound. i might also try to add an EQ base shelf on the rab-p. i can test that pretty easily with wavelet, and if i could probs add dsp to the tws software.

my plan is kinda a bit silly. looking for a massive amount of noise isolation, but also maximising the quality of transparency mode. it kinda just feels like being able to control my perceptions of ambient sounds at will. may be the best way to handle my sound sensitivities. plus manage my hearing damage + tinnitus while also having a good music production/listening experience.

im also gonna have to come up with a lower latency sound system for them, given the fact that the latency on bluetooth is awful, and makes music production and performance difficult. tuning of the iems is barely the start of this project, but i also realise that a ton of folk do that for their whole job/hobby lol


----------



## GeneBush

Hi guys! 
I found out that the 4 drivers LS FWEK-42017 are the same as the one used in Bellsing 6 and have the same crossover.
I have some stock DTEC 30008 and i will try to replicate a bellsing 6. Will let you know how it turns out. 
Kudos


----------



## BadgerMcBadger

hey, ive been wanting to make a single driver ciem with the raf driver and i wonder which tube diameter and dampers i should use? does outer diameter matter?


----------



## talyak (Dec 19, 2022)

BadgerMcBadger said:


> hey, ive been wanting to make a single driver ciem with the raf driver and i wonder which tube diameter and dampers i should use? does outer diameter matter?


as i understand it (from reading through literal years of posts here and fairly decent understanding of physics lol), the ID, length, and (to a lesser extent) material are what really matter in tuning with tubing. but if you are starting out, it might be worth using a recipe that has already been tested here. thats what im doing with the rab-p and final 2. i plan to adjust to taste only after building at least one pair.

edit: the rab-p is a 1 ba design by @dhruvmeena96, but it can be a little daunting to start with it as it requires very specific tubing lengths and a zobel. the final 2 is an older 2 ba design also by dhruv, that is more simple to implement, and has apparently incredible technical performance. tho it does use more expensive drivers


----------



## talyak

im planning to make a super simple one with the fed-30048 driver from knowles. and nothing more than a 12-16mm (dependent on testing) 2mm ID tube. i cant speak to the tuning, as i have yet to actually make it, but if the final 2 is anything to go by, it will be a pretty solid super simple 1 ba IEM that should be good at most things other than bass.


----------



## IEMbiker

BadgerMcBadger said:


> hey, ive been wanting to make a single driver ciem with the raf driver and i wonder which tube diameter and dampers i should use? does outer diameter matter?


you can try this tubing design for Rab-p from Druv.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/home-made-iems.430688/post-15229987


----------



## talyak (Dec 19, 2022)

i just found a crime against humanity that is clearly a diy iem from someone that hasnt heard of the concept of tuning, this is the fr:



edit: (no i didnt take a picture of my screen, this was on the actual product page on aliexpress))


----------



## BadgerMcBadger

whats a zobel


----------



## talyak

BadgerMcBadger said:


> whats a zobel


its a circuit that flattens the impedence characteristics of a driver. making it less dependent on having a good source


----------



## talyak

this is a more detailed post on the tubing for the rab-p. the second example is the easiest way to do it


Choy Wei De said:


> @Firedrops This is how i came out with my tubing.
> 
> Base on the numbers, this is what i came out.
> 
> ...


----------



## BadgerMcBadger (Dec 19, 2022)

oh, like power factor correction?


> its a circuit that flattens the impedence characteristics of a driver. making it less dependent on having a good source


----------



## talyak

similar, i think. im not familiar with power factor correction


----------



## talyak (Dec 19, 2022)

if you are planning to do something very similar anyway, id probs recommend just following the rab-p recipe in its entirety. it uses the rab-32257 and basically gives you a high end etymotic sound for a hundred or so dollars (a little more, but you end up with a lot of bits and pieces left over).

edit: (this way you get a complete single ba design, that multiple folks in this thread have made. so youre more likely to get the support you need if something goes wrong)


----------



## BadgerMcBadger

can i get the


talyak said:


> if you are planning to do something very similar anyway, id probs recommend just following the rab-p recipe in its entirety. it uses the rab-32257 and basically gives you a high end etymotic sound for a hundred or so dollars (a little more, but you end up with a lot of bits and pieces left over).
> 
> edit: (this way you get a complete single ba design, that multiple folks in this thread have made. so youre more likely to get the support you need if something goes wrong)


so to make it i need the tubings in the picture above and the zobel circuit? is there a schematic for the zobel circuit?


----------



## dhruvmeena96

@talyak ohh no you summoned the wrong guy.... 

I am not the dhruv 
Just kiddin...

Okie need to get back
@BadgerMcBadger 
Zobel is just a term given to telephone line current protection...

Technically what happens is that driver are transducer and have their own resonances like everything does.
For example take a remote control car, switch on and leave the controller on sofa(dont dare touch it) and take your hand drag the car over the floor, at certain rpm of wheel the bulb glows because at that rpm, you hit motor resonant energy that its able to put energy back into system.

If your speaker have resonant frequency at 10Hz lets imagine.. and you attach a bulb to it and a different speaker passing energy to the bulb speaker, the speaker hits resonance and bulb lights up..


Now imagine, you put amp where amp pushing all signal and speaker so efficient that it pushes back the current causing spike impedance called Back EMF.

What zobel does is kinda funny, its a lossy circuit but designed smartly, you kill amp power, because you know your speaker doesnt need it.. this done by proper calculation tells amp that the load is flat, and you dont send power to the speaker that its effecient in it that it makes it produce back emf. Less energy sent to speaker driver, slightly lower distortion, amp sees flat load, doesnt care about source out put impedance


Also my version of zobel is not restricted CR but LR and LCR and even magnitude of filters 

Its just that life doesnt go well so i just retired from the game but i will be glad to help out


----------



## talyak

lol soz for the @

basically everything i know is from your posts, so im just switching between this thread and the mini-doc i compiled to keep track of all the discussions about the rab-p lol


----------



## talyak (Dec 19, 2022)

if you have a moment, id love to hear what you thought of the fed in an etymotic style shell? i really want to play around with that sort of thing for my tws design.

edit: (also wishing you all the best on the life stuff. i had to drop all my hobbies a few years back for life shiz. i know how much it can suck)


----------



## talyak (Dec 19, 2022)

BadgerMcBadger said:


> can i get the
> 
> so to make it i need the tubings in the picture above and the zobel circuit? is there a schematic for the zobel circuit?


heres the doc im going from

https://imgur.com/gallery/6KbsuyT

edit: i cant easily find a 41ohm resistor, so im going with a 30 and 11


----------



## dhruvmeena96

talyak said:


> lol soz for the @
> 
> basically everything i know is from your posts, so im just switching between this thread and the mini-doc i compiled to keep track of all the discussions about the rab-p lol


I did masm series and final series and then some confidential commercial iem and now i am out lol

About FED, go on, just remember to not use dampers with it... And try get the tube style ryt, the lenght... And you can make your own ety style fed iem


----------



## talyak (Dec 19, 2022)

dhruvmeena96 said:


> I did masm series and final series and then some confidential commercial iem and now i am out lol
> 
> About FED, go on, just remember to not use dampers with it... And try get the tube style ryt, the lenght... And you can make your own ety style fed iem


speaking of the final series. in the final 2 what exactly is the ed-30761 handling? looking at the fr on its data sheet it seems like a bass/mids woofer. and i noticed the lower mids seemed a little bloated in the fr i could find of the final 2. so i was wondering if it would be worth trying to push it into more bass shelf territory with a crossover, or swap it for a sub?

edit: (bloated for my personal tastes that align closer to harmen than pre-harmen standards. tho i do love some diffuse field for its clarity)


----------



## BadgerMcBadger (Dec 20, 2022)

where can i find a 1.2mm id tube?
oh and the capacitor in the schematic is 4.7uf right?


----------



## talyak

BadgerMcBadger said:


> where can i find a 1.2mm id tube?
> oh and the capacitor in the schematic is 4.7uf right?


i couldnt find any so im gonna use 1mm ID. and yes it is 4.7uf


----------



## BadgerMcBadger

talyak said:


> i couldnt find any so im gonna use 1mm ID. and yes it is 4.7uf


tack så mycket. your help is very appreciated (and dhruvmeena96's help too !)


----------



## BadgerMcBadger

btw, do i need to include a 3mm id tube to mimic the nozzle in the tube diagram, since i am making a ciem so it wont actually be needed


----------



## talyak

BadgerMcBadger said:


> btw, do i need to include a 3mm id tube to mimic the nozzle in the tube diagram, since i am making a ciem so it wont actually be needed


well, you could drill the ciems out to 3mm ID with a 3mm deep section before you hit the tubing. that should work more or less the same as a 3mm ID nozzle.


----------



## BadgerMcBadger

but do i must include it or can i drop it? i am afraid i wont have enough room in the shell for it


----------



## talyak (Dec 20, 2022)

BadgerMcBadger said:


> but do i must include it or can i drop it? i am afraid i wont have enough room in the shell for it


you should have plenty of space for a 3mmx3mm hole. thats very small even by iem standards. most universal nozzles are between 4-6mm, and unless you have exceptionally small ear canals, they will probs be larger than that. not having it will impact the sound, but how much i dont know. dhruv might

edit: oh and if you are worried about tubing length, they dont have to be straight. a small curve in the tubing shouldnt make too much difference


----------



## BadgerMcBadger

talyak said:


> you should have plenty of space for a 3mmx3mm hole. thats very small even by iem standards. most universal nozzles are between 4-6mm, and unless you have exceptionally small ear canals, they will probs be larger than that. not having it will impact the sound, but how much i dont know. dhruv might
> 
> edit: oh and if you are worried about tubing length, they dont have to be straight. a small curve in the tubing shouldnt make too much difference


good to know, thanks


----------



## talyak

i had an idea.... i could modify a tws iem that sits in your concha. put an mmcx or 2 pin connector on it bypassing or replacing the driver.
add in an etymotic er series iem that sits entirely in your ear canal, and suddenly you got an audiophile quality pair of tws iems, that are as low profile as a normal pair of tws iems. so they wouldnt need the behind ear build like the fiiO utws5 or similar. it doesnt match all my design requirements, but its a good interim option while i work on the circuit design for mine.


----------



## musmecca

Anypne have any experience with the Sonion 28UAP01 driver? Got a pair and wanted some opinions from those that have used them...best configurations, limitations, suggested builds. I love bass heavy.....


----------



## swtnate

musmecca said:


> Anypne have any experience with the Sonion 28UAP01 driver? Got a pair and wanted some opinions from those that have used them...best configurations, limitations, suggested builds. I love bass heavy.....


They work great paired with a 33 or a 38.


----------



## BadgerMcBadger

how do you guys mount the 2 pin socket on the iem? i cant seem to think of a safe way to do it without risking voiding the shell


----------



## talyak

BadgerMcBadger said:


> how do you guys mount the 2 pin socket on the iem? i cant seem to think of a safe way to do it without risking voiding the shell


if you are 3d printing the shell, make a hole in the stl shaped for the 2 pin connector and glue it in. if you are doing it the mold way, once you have cast the shell file a hole to fit the 2 pin connector in, glue it, and keep the mold to start again if you make a mistake. you can make quite a few shells with a small amount of resin, so it's not an especially big deal if you have to start again. also, you can fill any holes or uneven bits in with a dab of UV resin and a UV torch. i guess save the lack 3 covering until after you are done cos that stuff is more expensive


----------



## talyak (Dec 21, 2022)

anyone got opinions on the best BA for tweeters/subs? im thinking of designing an all-rounder with the fed-30048 in the midrange. currently im thinking sonion 38d1x for sub, and one of the knowles swfk for tweeter. tho i may end up using the fed for highs as well, depending on my testing. im thinking of aiming for smoothness over anything else in the highs. so if you have any advice for making something that doesnt have a ton of peakiness, lemme know.

edit: i currently am thinking of trying the swfk-32625 as its already dampened, and has a super flat response, so i was thinking maybe using the tubing to have it extend further into the highs might work out well
edit2: i just remembered about folks using drivers that peak in the troughs of the other drivers to even things out. kinda comb filter effect. so maybe i should have the fed extend into the highs and use a tweeter to smoothen that out?


----------



## BadgerMcBadger

talyak said:


> if you are 3d printing the shell, make a hole in the stl shaped for the 2 pin connector and glue it in. if you are doing it the mold way, once you have cast the shell file a hole to fit the 2 pin connector in, glue it, and keep the mold to start again if you make a mistake. you can make quite a few shells with a small amount of resin, so it's not an especially big deal if you have to start again. also, you can fill any holes or uneven bits in with a dab of UV resin and a UV torch. i guess save the lack 3 covering until after you are done cos that stuff is more expensive


thanks for the answer, i think ill use dreve polishing wax instead of lacquar though.
as for the wax used for coating the impressions themselves, are there any altenatives to parrafin wax?


----------



## talyak

BadgerMcBadger said:


> thanks for the answer, i think ill use dreve polishing wax instead of lacquar though.
> as for the wax used for coating the impressions themselves, are there any altenatives to parrafin wax?


well, i guess you dont need to worry as much about the price, but id question how skin-safe the polishing wax is. esp after some wear and tear, as you may wear through to the resin, which unless you are getting tested skin-safe resin, thats not a great idea. the advantage of lacquer is that it creates a hard barrier that is unlikely to be easily worn away.
as for the impressions. i suspect most forms of mold release would be ok, but again, making sure its not an irritant is probs a good idea just in case there is some residue leftover on the iems (either that or be super careful to make them super clean after de-molding).


----------



## BadgerMcBadger

talyak said:


> well, i guess you dont need to worry as much about the price, but id question how skin-safe the polishing wax is. esp after some wear and tear, as you may wear through to the resin, which unless you are getting tested skin-safe resin, thats not a great idea. the advantage of lacquer is that it creates a hard barrier that is unlikely to be easily worn away.
> as for the impressions. i suspect most forms of mold release would be ok, but again, making sure its not an irritant is probs a good idea just in case there is some residue leftover on the iems (either that or be super careful to make them super clean after de-molding).


i would be using either fotoplast or nice-fit, so thats not a concern if the wax wears off. is parraffin wax irritant? if its not i might use it after all. i couldnt find an answer on google


----------



## talyak

BadgerMcBadger said:


> i would be using either fotoplast or nice-fit, so thats not a concern if the wax wears off. is parraffin wax irritant? if its not i might use it after all. i couldnt find an answer on google


paraffin is basically fine. there are actually some skin care products that use paraffin, im not sure how good they are for you, but i assume if it was a guaranteed irritant people wouldnt be lathering up with it lol. its not great if you have sensitive skin, and i probs wouldnt particularly want a ton of it in my ear lol, but it should also wash off pretty easily. so, if you have access to it, i dont think its something you especially have to avoid

edit: by this i mean, maybe dont coat your iems with it. but using it in the mold process should be 100% fine.


----------



## musmecca

swtnate said:


> They work great paired with a 33 or a 38.


So did you do the 38 as sub with the 28 pulling mid duties? Did you have to add another tweeter?...not sure about the 28's extension....


----------



## tonybuild

*Is it correct wiring for sonion 38 ?*


----------



## piotrus-g

tonybuild said:


> *Is it correct wiring for sonion 38 ?*


For parallel connection, yes


----------



## kmmm

musmecca said:


> So did you do the 38 as sub with the 28 pulling mid duties? Did you have to add another tweeter?...not sure about the 28's extension....


28 is really nice. I have had some difficulty with the second peek around 4k. You definitely need a tweeter.


----------



## neyurt

Look interesting. Thanks for sharing this.


----------



## Wgibson

Anyone used the 38D2XJ yet? Even steeper than 38D1XJ. That with sonion ESTs, what would you do for mid/full?


----------



## talyak

Wgibson said:


> Anyone used the 38D2XJ yet? Even steeper than 38D1XJ. That with sonion ESTs, what would you do for mid/full?


interesting. do you have a source for them?
i was thinking of giving the 38d1xj a go with the knowles fed-30048 for mids/highs. but i may not even need a crossover if the 2xj is that steep.
i feel like the sonion ESTs will be the weak spot with those tho. by all accounts its really hard to tune them to properly fill out the highs without being whispy. plus you lose the all-ba coherency advantage that you get with ba mids and bass.


----------



## Wgibson (Dec 25, 2022)

Post #13607 from January has a taobao store number where I got the 38d2xj, not sure if they still have them

Edit: I used 26859 fed in a 10mm planar tribrid, 13mm dd, no filters, it is very realistic sounding, compared to single 10mm planar (same driver.)


----------



## mattmatt

Anyone here using ear impressions scanners?


----------



## BadgerMcBadger

which dremel bits do you folks use for ciem making?


----------



## slakoth453

BadgerMcBadger said:


> which dremel bits do you folks use for ciem making?


I use these for grinding the faceplate flush, for ciems smaller round bits are also useful and of course normal drill bits.


----------



## BadgerMcBadger

slakoth453 said:


> I use these for grinding the faceplate flush, for ciems smaller round bits are also useful and of course normal drill bits.


what do you mean by


> grinding the faceplate flush


----------



## musmecca

BadgerMcBadger said:


> which dremel bits do you folks use for ciem making?


I use a couple of bits...sharp point for cutting edges or starting pilot hole for tubes then the larger carbide bid for rounding edges and boring out the final holes for the tubes. I also use 120 and 220 sanding wheels...these are very important as you can smooth out first with the 120 then go finer with the 220. Ill use my bench sander at times if i'm working with a thick faceplate. I attach my faceplates before cutting as it allows me more control of postion....I can center the best parts where i want them and cut away the rest. I ALWAYS 220 the shell prior to dipping as it helps the finish. Yes, I laq3 the INSIDE of my shell as well as it helps get a fantastic finish. I put a few pics below.....note the dipping of the shell...it's tubes are long and capped and the connector socket is sealed with aluminum tape....quick spin in laq 3 for less than a second, tap to remove drips, spin for 5 minutes then UV.  Note the prepped shells are dull looking....don't worry about it as they will pop when lacquered.  I threw a pic of a gold shell that shows how I center my wood....final result on right.


----------



## slakoth453

BadgerMcBadger said:


> what do you mean by


What @musmecca shows in his pictures.


----------



## talyak

musmecca said:


> I use a couple of bits...sharp point for cutting edges or starting pilot hole for tubes then the larger carbide bid for rounding edges and boring out the final holes for the tubes. I also use 120 and 220 sanding wheels...these are very important as you can smooth out first with the 120 then go finer with the 220. Ill use my bench sander at times if i'm working with a thick faceplate. I attach my faceplates before cutting as it allows me more control of postion....I can center the best parts where i want them and cut away the rest. I ALWAYS 220 the shell prior to dipping as it helps the finish. Yes, I laq3 the INSIDE of my shell as well as it helps get a fantastic finish. I put a few pics below.....note the dipping of the shell...it's tubes are long and capped and the connector socket is sealed with aluminum tape....quick spin in laq 3 for less than a second, tap to remove drips, spin for 5 minutes then UV.  Note the prepped shells are dull looking....don't worry about it as they will pop when lacquered.  I threw a pic of a gold shell that shows how I center my wood....final result on right.


these are such pretty designs! i especially like the purple/blue one. looks amazing!!


----------



## talyak

does anyone have a source for 100g bottles of skin-safe resin? or lack 3? soundlink on aliexpress has neither rn, and i really dont need 250g of the stuff


----------



## musmecca

talyak said:


> does anyone have a source for 100g bottles of skin-safe resin? or lack 3? soundlink on aliexpress has neither rn, and i really dont need 250g of the stuff


They are in the USA but easy to deal with....:

https://lightning-enterprises.com/Item/fotoplast_UV_hearing-aid-lacquer


----------



## talyak

just ordered a pair of fed-30048s. gonna make an er4xr/sr style deep insertion design with my 3d printer. i figure as long as the shell isnt making tons of contact with my inner ear, i shouldnt have any issue using pla. plus i cant get any impressions made in the next month, so a universal design will work best. lets hope there isnt any channel imbalance cos i cant really test them with the mics i have. its my new years present to myself lol


----------



## Wgibson

Any mic can give a relative comparison!


----------



## talyak (Dec 28, 2022)

i may want to re-use these drivers in a different design at some point. does anyone have any suggestions for a temporary adhesive or something to help the drivers seal against the iem shell?
(im not using acoustic tubing, and just designing the shell to have the 2mm ID im looking for)

edit: (im thinking i could use some putty or blue tac or something for this. tho i am open to better suggestions lol)


----------



## BadgerMcBadger

talyak said:


> i couldnt find any so im gonna use 1mm ID. and yes it is 4.7uf


i found 1.3mm id 1.8od tubes on soundlink if you are perhaps interested, just letting you know
link https://www.aliexpress.com/item/326...2100bddb16722500510833874e5876!60467455607!sh


----------



## talyak

BadgerMcBadger said:


> i found 1.3mm id 1.8od tubes on soundlink if you are perhaps interested, just letting you know
> link https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32692011802.html?spm=a2g0o.store_pc_allProduct.8148356.20.3eab64ffHq08c5&pdp_npi=2@dis!ILS!₪ 3.66!₪ 3.34!!!!!@2100bddb16722500510833874e5876!60467455607!sh


i decided to go with the fed-30048 in a 3d printed shell instead of doing a rab-p build. but thanks for the link!


----------



## talyak

is there a reason *not* to use EQ/DSP to create a bass shelf on a single ba IEM?


----------



## talyak (Dec 28, 2022)

like, i get if you are spending large amounts of money, its a bit ridiculous to require digital correction out of the box. but for those of us creating IEMs for personal use. wouldnt it be more important to achieve good technical performance, then use apps like wavelet or EQ-APO to achieve the fr we are looking for?


----------



## slakoth453

talyak said:


> like, i get if you are spending large amounts of money, its a bit ridiculous to require digital correction out of the box. but for those of us creating IEMs for personal use. wouldnt it be more important to achieve good technical performance, then use apps like wavelet or EQ-APO to achieve the fr we are looking for?


Nothing wrong with eq as long as it doesn't distort


----------



## talyak

slakoth453 said:


> Nothing wrong with eq as long as it doesn't distort


im more thinking in terms of trade-offs vs using a dedicated woofer/sub. i know the FED is probs the wrong driver to use for this as it has a lot higher THD in the bass region than a lot of bas. but im curious as to whether some folks have actually done some analysis on the effectiveness on using EQ to tune an iem over tubing/venting/damping/circuitry.


----------



## GeneBush

mattmatt said:


> Anyone here using ear impressions scanners?


REVOPOINT MINI here.
It rocks


----------



## mattmatt

GeneBush said:


> REVOPOINT MINI here.
> It rocks


Planning to get that too.  mind sharing photos of your scans?


----------



## talyak (Dec 29, 2022)

still gotta get measurements on the driver and the 2 pin connector (and fix my 3d printer), but this is what my ety style shell design looks like so far

edit: (once ive completed a functional test print and tested it with the drivers etc, ill upload stls and shiz. dont much believe in keeping designs proprietary lol)


----------



## BadgerMcBadger

is earwax getting into the ciem a problem? should i add a wax filter?


----------



## BadgerMcBadger

anyone knows alternatives to the dreve polishing wax? i cant even find it on dreve's site


----------



## musmecca

BadgerMcBadger said:


> is earwax getting into the ciem a problem? should i add a wax filter?


There are wax removal tools made for this purpose...simple loops that get wax out of the tubes. I don't know of many that install wax filters. One tip in making your IEM is to try to center tubes as much as possible...having them exit near the canal wall will increase their ability to pick up wax.


----------



## musmecca

BadgerMcBadger said:


> anyone knows alternatives to the dreve polishing wax? i cant even find it on dreve's site


Visit this site...it explains all the different wheels, compounds etc...there are multiple pages. Some elect to buff and polish while others (like me) will use lac 3 for the finish.  I love the finish from buffing and polishing but i'm too clumsy and have had a shell or two catch on the wheel and fly across the room, cracking in the process.  To each his own...

https://blog.esslinger.com/guide-to-buffing-and-polishing-wheels/


----------



## BobbyKa

stegeoc said:


> 3. I used 2mm ID tubes. I would imagine you'd lose some treble if you used 1mm ID tubing for the tweeter. Maybe that is desirable to some. With 2mm ID tubing all the way you'll have more options for damper placement


Tried it yesterday. The shell has 8x9mm od at the ear canal. so 2 tubes with 3mm od does fit, but it ain't easy. Hardest part for me was to get enough space to get the tubes pushed through at the first bend of the ear canal. Had to drill to get more space, but then the shell got too thin at one place. Will try it again today.


----------



## talyak

does anyone have a recommendation for a tweeter that could be used in a tubeless tia like design?


----------



## BadgerMcBadger (Dec 31, 2022)

musmecca said:


> Visit this site...it explains all the different wheels, compounds etc...there are multiple pages. Some elect to buff and polish while others (like me) will use lac 3 for the finish.  I love the finish from buffing and polishing but i'm too clumsy and have had a shell or two catch on the wheel and fly across the room, cracking in the process.  To each his own...
> 
> https://blog.esslinger.com/guide-to-buffing-and-polishing-wheels/


thanks, what i am going to do to prevent the shell from flying off is placing it on a big chunk of plasticine
another thing, should i dip my iem shell in wax twice because of the material removed during the buffing 
process?


----------



## musmecca (Dec 31, 2022)

BadgerMcBadger said:


> thanks, what i am going to do to prevent the shell from flying off is placing it on a big chunk of plasticine
> another thing, should i dip my iem shell in wax twice because of the material removed during the buffing
> process?


You don't really remove that much material in your buffing process.....you should have a pretty smooth shell once you take it out of your mold.  I don't excessively add wax layers as if it's too big it may not fit comfortably. In my process, dipping in laq 3 can add some material..sometimes I do that one extra dip if the IEM is loose. Regarding wax, use dental wax, not paraffin: paraffin or other inferior waxes can flake off when you remove your impression from the mold...you sometimes won't notice until you pour your acrylic and see the imperfection. I use this stuff...dental wax.....very tough, won't flake and is designed to be used in this manner. One last tip, your wax temperature makes a LOT of difference: very hot wax will flow off more easily leaving a thinner coating and sometimes it can be dipped twice...colder wax will leave a thicker coat.


----------



## BadgerMcBadger

musmecca said:


> You don't really remove that much material in your buffing process.....you should have a pretty smooth shell once you take it out of your mold.  I don't excessively add wax layers as if it's too big it may not fit comfortably. In my process, dipping in laq 3 can add some material..sometimes I do that one extra dip if the IEM is loose. Regarding wax, use dental wax, not paraffin: paraffin or other inferior waxes can flake off when you remove your impression from the mold...you sometimes won't notice until you pour your acrylic and see the imperfection. I use this stuff...dental wax.....very tough, won't flake and is designed to be used in this manner. One last tip, your wax temperature makes a LOT of difference: very hot wax will flow off more easily leaving a thinner coating and sometimes it can be dipped twice...colder wax will leave a thicker coat.


where can i get dental wax? thanks in advance


----------



## musmecca

BadgerMcBadger said:


> where can i get dental wax? thanks in advance


try looking up "rite-wax" or Rite-dent" or "set-rite"...you're in Israel so you have to find a dental supplier in your country which shouldn't be to difficult.


----------



## BadgerMcBadger

musmecca said:


> try looking up "rite-wax" or Rite-dent" or "set-rite"...you're in Israel so you have to find a dental supplier in your country which shouldn't be to difficult.


so any dental wax should work?


----------



## swtnate

musmecca said:


> So did you do the 38 as sub with the 28 pulling mid duties? Did you have to add another tweeter?...not sure about the 28's extension....


I added 2 swfk and a twfk. Plus a 28 plus a 38


----------



## Aldo40

talyak said:


> does anyone have a recommendation for a tweeter that could be used in a tubeless tia like design?


knowles 30095 
swfk is also used in the same way with different dampers as on the fiio FH9


----------



## musmecca

swtnate said:


> I added 2 swfk and a twfk. Plus a 28 plus a 38


mind sharing tubing and crossovers?  Would like your thoughts as that's at least 3 tubes......I've only managed a 1 mm and 2X2mm so far.


----------



## talyak (Dec 31, 2022)

Aldo40 said:


> knowles 30095
> swfk is also used in the same way with different dampers as on the fiio FH9


interesting. would you recommend either undamped/minimal damping?
i could probs do a second iteration of my current design with one of those (the 30095) having a straight shot to the ear drum.


----------



## talyak (Dec 31, 2022)

anyone come across a source for knowles' new supertweeter the RAU-34832?

edit: nevermind, found a taobao seller


----------



## talyak

im getting my fed drivers next week. so im gonna finish my ety build asap.
my next plan is a SB7 like design, with drivers stacked in the ear canal
im currently thinking something like this (from closest to cable, to closest to eardrum)

bass: sonion 38 or 33
mids: knowles fed-30048
highs: knowles wbfk-30095
ultra-highs: knowles RAU-34832

gonna work on a 3 or 4 way crossover (the rau doesnt even wake up until like 6k or so, so i may get away without a crossover on that). i know the sonion 38d1x has acupass, and the fed has ferrofluid damping, so i wont really need to dampen them more. im thinking of having the wbfk and rau be tubeless. i really want to go beyond harman and reach smoothly all the way to 16khz (which is about the upper limit of my hearing), while retaining as much detail as possible. hence the goal of eliminating damping that could blunt the attack. im very curious about the rau given that knowles is touting it as an alternative to ESTs.

first fed ety build is gonna be mids focused. second build is gonna be mids and highs (hopefully). then i need to get a bunch of different woofer/subs in hand so i can experiment to maximise bass performance. tho i feel like i havent ever actually heard really amazing bass in an iem, so i may have to try to get a few more bass head favs in hand for comparison purposes. wish i could borrow a z1r or something at some point.


----------



## BobbyKa

Did a build with GV-32830. 3x2mm tubes, both about 16mm long. White damper 5mm in front of the tweeter, brown damper 7mm in front of the woofer. I left the Vents of the gv as they were.

They got more lows then all the (universal) inears I tried so far. i think i like it to have mor low end, but maybe a little less then now.
*1. Any suggestions for other dampers or positioning?*

I know, best is trying myself and also measuring. Of course i will also try myself several combinations, but am happe to not start from scratch, cause im not that good into it yet and it takes me a lot of time. The tubes bareley fit through the canal and there was a massive difference in the lows between my attempt to seal the shell temporarely with tape and realy sealing it by adding the faceplate.

My other problem is measurement. I bought an Dayton IMM-6 and use a 8mm id PVC tube to connect the inears. First tests i did with REW and some cheap inears just to check if it works. It did and results seemed "correct". Then i tried some settings in REW and my soundcard. Since then, all results got this massive decrease at about 52 Hz and do not give something useable above 9kHz. These two things i now get always and with all inears i got here. different tube lenghts, perfectly sealed. With or without mic calibration file, in REW and in HOLMImpulse. Tested on two laptops.
*2. Is my IMM-6 broken or what do i do wrong? *


----------



## talyak

BobbyKa said:


> Did a build with GV-32830. 3x2mm tubes, both about 16mm long. White damper 5mm in front of the tweeter, brown damper 7mm in front of the woofer. I left the Vents of the gv as they were.
> 
> They got more lows then all the (universal) inears I tried so far. i think i like it to have mor low end, but maybe a little less then now.
> *1. Any suggestions for other dampers or positioning?*
> ...


to me, that looks like youve messed up something on the software/firmware side. it looks like an algorithmic filter


----------



## BobbyKa

talyak said:


> to me, that looks like youve messed up something on the software/firmware side. it looks like an algorithmic filter


Thought so too.
But as it happens with different Software ans different Laptops...


----------



## BobbyKa

Just tested again. i changed nothing, but now the results are ok. don't know why. but will try to find out.


----------



## Aegruin

Hello guys,
I'm trying a build with x1 22955 x1 29689 x1 31736. I can't seem to get the highs to reach above 13k, any idea what I miss? I also tried center tapping 29689.
Can't reach 13k+


----------



## musmecca

BobbyKa said:


> Just tested again. i changed nothing, but now the results are ok. don't know why. but will try to find out.


If your seal between your testing mic and your ba's have ANY opening no matter how small, you will lose bass while testing. Usually a notch like you show is caused by phase interference (incorrect polarity on one of your ba"s), but you saying its now gone sounds like a sealing issue.


----------



## talyak

it would be so useful to have a database of drivers and their fr/thd/characteristics with various tube lengths
maybe also a list of iems with known driver configs as well


----------



## talyak

anyone used a sonion 26a as a woofer? it has extension right the way down to 10hz and has a thd under 1% all the way there. it is pretty small and doesnt have the volume of the dedicated subs, so im curious how good it is in terms of transients.


----------



## GeneBush (Jan 2, 2023)

mattmatt said:


> Planning to get that too.  mind sharing photos of your scans?


I used to have the revopoint pop2 but i exchanged it with someone who had the mini. The difference between the 2 scanners is notable, the mini is more detailed for small objects like earscans etc. In the photos below the scans that i used were cut and clean before the scan.


----------



## talyak

which swfk is folks preferred? there are 5 types on soundlink lol


----------



## swtnate

musmecca said:


> mind sharing tubing and crossovers?  Would like your thoughts as that's at least 3 tubes......I've only managed a 1 mm and 2X2mm so far.


I ran the 20 Ω ➡️ 38 with 2mmOD, 5-10Ω ➡️28 and TW (.82 to the WB) with a green and 3mmOD and 2Xsw (1uf to one, .47uf to the other) with grey and 3mm OD.

i got a virtually flat response with a boosted high end shelf that is easily manipulative with external eq to become what ever sound stage youd like.  At 120 dB with still an added 5-6dB of headroom. less than .05% THD at any of the high shelf peaks.


----------



## stegeoc

Aegruin said:


> Hello guys,
> I'm trying a build with x1 22955 x1 29689 x1 31736. I can't seem to get the highs to reach above 13k, any idea what I miss? I also tried center tapping 29689.
> Can't reach 13k+


How are you measuring?  I tend to ignore everything above around 8kHz as the measurements seem unreliable and there isn't much there anyway.  The last time I checked I could only hear up to 14kHz so have never been too worried about that area. 
If you've got good young ears then probably want to look at ESTs rather than BAs, but it might be worth checking that you really need it first


----------



## stegeoc

talyak said:


> it would be so useful to have a database of drivers and their fr/thd/characteristics with various tube lengths
> maybe also a list of iems with known driver configs as well


Have you seen this:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jguxmYfEmZdHEGIUDvQUnfm3vhxo51WeNKKG0_oRtMA/pub?gid=0#

Last updated 3 years back, but it might be useful


----------



## mattmatt

GeneBush said:


> I used to have the revopoint pop2 but i exchanged it with someone who had the mini. The difference between the 2 scanners is notable, the mini is more detailed for small objects like earscans etc. In the photos below the scans that i used were cut and clean before the scan.


How's the accuracy of the scaling? That's one of the things I was worried about back then.


----------



## talyak

stegeoc said:


> Have you seen this:
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jguxmYfEmZdHEGIUDvQUnfm3vhxo51WeNKKG0_oRtMA/pub?gid=0#
> 
> Last updated 3 years back, but it might be useful


oh, this is fricking great. so helpful. thanks!


----------



## talyak

given that the a12t uses the sonion 38 series, i figure thats good enough for me.
final line-up for my more or less end-game build
bass: sonion 38D1XJ007Mi/8a
mids: knowles fed-30048 (as long as my ety build works out ok next week, im gonna stick with this driver)
highs: knowles wbfk-30095
ultra-highs: knowles RAU-34832
tho thats about 200usd in just drivers alone, so im probs gonna wait on actually buying all that.
gonna stick the rau and wbfk in the nozzle. tia style. i will actually have to test with/without damping on those tho. the fed and 38D1X wont need it as they are both damped. gonna wait until they arrive (and the testing rig i wanna get) before creating the crossover tho. gonna try a 4 way, as i can easily get the pcb printed at jlc plus ive got a heatgun for reflow with smd parts. they are all gonna sit within the ear canal hopefully, tho i do need to get impressions done. maybe i could make something like the sb-7 for a universal(ish) design


----------



## GeneBush

mattmatt said:


> How's the accuracy of the scaling? That's one of the things I was worried about back then.


It all depends on how accurately you scan the impressions. It's a bit difficult to get the right lighting and the scan software is still on the beta version but I managed to get pretty decent scans with ~0.1mm difference. Still on the way to get perfect scans though.


----------



## musmecca

stegeoc said:


> Have you seen this:
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jguxmYfEmZdHEGIUDvQUnfm3vhxo51WeNKKG0_oRtMA/pub?gid=0#
> 
> Last updated 3 years back, but it might be useful


It's very useful as you can see kinda what sound signatures go with each configuration....now for the last bit..the graphs of most of these can be found at:

https://crinacle.com/graphs/


----------



## talyak

musmecca said:


> It's very useful as you can see kinda what sound signatures go with each configuration....now for the last bit..the graphs of most of these can be found at:
> 
> https://crinacle.com/graphs/


lol, im well aware of crins database. its great for tuning specifically. but doesnt provide much info outside of that. add to that the fact that you can probs tune the majority of driver arrangements to almost any target given enough time/effort/experimentation. honestly, his ranking list is more useful when it comes to choosing drivers. knowing the a12t has excellent (for BA) bass, is a better recommendation for specific drivers (sonion 38 series in this case), than simply seeing that it can be tuned to a specific fr imo


----------



## tonybuild

Any crossovers for 33AJ007i/9 ?!


----------



## talyak

tonybuild said:


> Any crossovers for 33AJ007i/9 ?!


crossover design is dependent on what you are crossing it over with and the frequencies you want to isolate with each driver. its not a one size fits all kinda thing.


----------



## tonybuild

talyak said:


> crossover design is dependent on what you are crossing it over with and the frequencies you want to isolate with each driver. its not a one size fits all kinda thing.


I saw someone made triple driver using it 33aj007 and 2389 . 
I just don’t know how wire the 33aj


----------



## talyak

tonybuild said:


> I saw someone made triple driver using it 33aj007 and 2389 .
> I just don’t know how wire the 33aj


why dont you tag or quote that person asking how they did the wiring?


----------



## swtnate

tonybuild said:


> I saw someone made triple driver using it 33aj007 and 2389 .
> I just don’t know how wire the 33aj


on the Sonion website, they describe how to wire the drivers.  A 33 with a 2389 is an awesome combo.  But, it sounds like you are looking for something there is no concrete answer too.  I could tell you “use a 20 Ω resister with a 33, 3mmOD at 12mm long and a 2389 with. 4.7 uf and. 3mmOD at 15mm long.

that set up will sound good to some, sibilant to others, etc.  the drivers pair well together but to get what you want, you will have to test.


----------



## talyak

xsim is amazing for learning this circuitry. learned how to implement high-pass, low-pass, band-pass, and notch filters today


----------



## tonybuild

Thank you so much guys. Just trying to learn new stuff and be a little creative. Also, I didn’t find the wiring thing on website.


----------



## tonybuild

tonybuild said:


> Thank you so much guys. Just trying to learn new stuff and be a little creative. Also, I didn’t find the wiring thing on website.


O just find it


----------



## arielsivan

Hi everyone 
Im looking for a recommendation for a low-budget 3D scanner and printer that does the job..
I prefer from AliExpress.. Amazon is also possible


----------



## talyak

arielsivan said:


> Hi everyone
> Im looking for a recommendation for a low-budget 3D scanner and printer that does the job..
> I prefer from AliExpress.. Amazon is also possible


youll want a resin printer. anything by anycubic or elegoo would be a good bet. you will also need a curing/wash station, so its best to get them as a set if you are a beginner imo. do some proper research into safely using resin printers as the uncured resin can be quite bad to breath or get on your skin.
absolute budget option for scanning is photogrammetry which you can use your phone. if you have access to a recent iphone, even better. they have lidar. otherwise you are probs gonna have to spend 500usd or more for a decent scanner like the revopoint ones.


----------



## stegeoc

talyak said:


> youll want a resin printer. anything by anycubic or elegoo would be a good bet. you will also need a curing/wash station, so its best to get them as a set if you are a beginner imo. do some proper research into safely using resin printers as the uncured resin can be quite bad to breath or get on your skin.
> absolute budget option for scanning is photogrammetry which you can use your phone. if you have access to a recent iphone, even better. they have lidar. otherwise you are probs gonna have to spend 500usd or more for a decent scanner like the revopoint ones.


I've been happy with my Elegoo Mars 3 resin printer but it wouldn't surprise me if the others are very similar.  The mechanics are all very basic.  When it comes to printing iems with very thin tubes I found that some resins can be very problematic.  Thick ones especially.

I haven't got a wash and cure but did think about it a number of times.  Do you find it helpful?  I'm short of space so it seemed wasteful for me.  I wash things in a small jar of IPA and shake it a few times and that seems fine.  For small details like tubes I squirt IPA through to clear out the uncured resin.

Talking of which, for me 99% IPA is now a problem for my hands.  My hands used to be pretty durable but now even minor exposure to 99% IPA causes them to dry up and crack nastily.  I've started using the Anycubic Plant Based resins which is non-toxic and runny so works well for me, even with thin layers and small details


----------



## talyak

stegeoc said:


> I've been happy with my Elegoo Mars 3 resin printer but it wouldn't surprise me if the others are very similar.  The mechanics are all very basic.  When it comes to printing iems with very thin tubes I found that some resins can be very problematic.  Thick ones especially.
> 
> I haven't got a wash and cure but did think about it a number of times.  Do you find it helpful?  I'm short of space so it seemed wasteful for me.  I wash things in a small jar of IPA and shake it a few times and that seems fine.  For small details like tubes I squirt IPA through to clear out the uncured resin.
> 
> Talking of which, for me 99% IPA is now a problem for my hands.  My hands used to be pretty durable but now even minor exposure to 99% IPA causes them to dry up and crack nastily.  I've started using the Anycubic Plant Based resins which is non-toxic and runny so works well for me, even with thin layers and small details


i dont currently have a resin printer, but i can say the wash and cure stations are worth it just for how much easier it makes things. you can of course go without them, but having something to make sure the resins are cured fully is always a good idea. plus given the fact they have UV blocking covers, you are less likely to hurt your eyes or damage objects from too much UV exposure.

id advise wearing disposable gloves when handling shiz lol. i have super sensitive skin, so i tend to be careful whenever doing anything like handling resins, high percentage alcohol, etc.

i havent tried any of the plant based resins before. are there any that are rated skinsafe for shells? or do you cover them in a lacquer?


----------



## stegeoc

BobbyKa said:


> Just tested again. i changed nothing, but now the results are ok. don't know why. but will try to find out.


The graph looks very much like one of the drivers has the wrong polarity somehow.  I know you are ok now, but perhaps you have a loose or stray wire that is causing an intermittent issue?

Incidentally, I also had an IMM6 and gave up on it.  Probably my fault but the mic came unglued within the spout and I could never get it to measure nicely after fixing it back.  A cheap 711 clone from china was certainly more worth it for me.

Also, I did far too many builds before knocking up an impedance testing rig.  I'd recommend doing that early on as it is useful for checking for ruling out any wiring issues


----------



## talyak

stegeoc said:


> The graph looks very much like one of the drivers has the wrong polarity somehow.  I know you are ok now, but perhaps you have a loose or stray wire that is causing an intermittent issue?
> 
> Incidentally, I also had an IMM6 and gave up on it.  Probably my fault but the mic came unglued within the spout and I could never get it to measure nicely after fixing it back.  A cheap 711 clone from china was certainly more worth it for me.
> 
> Also, I did far too many builds before knocking up an impedance testing rig.  I'd recommend doing that early on as it is useful for checking for ruling out any wiring issues


oh, i was just thinking about building an impedance test rig earlier today. do you have any recommendations on how to do it or tutorials that you know of?


----------



## stegeoc

talyak said:


> i dont currently have a resin printer, but i can say the wash and cure stations are worth it just for how much easier it makes things. you can of course go without them, but having something to make sure the resins are cured fully is always a good idea. plus given the fact they have UV blocking covers, you are less likely to hurt your eyes or damage objects from too much UV exposure.
> 
> id advise wearing disposable gloves when handling shiz lol. i have super sensitive skin, so i tend to be careful whenever doing anything like handling resins, high percentage alcohol, etc.
> 
> i havent tried any of the plant based resins before. are there any that are rated skinsafe for shells? or do you cover them in a lacquer?


For curing I use a UV nail light.  I try not to stare at it too much, but I guess some people use these things a lot so it shouldn't be too harmful.  I have held things under it with resin unknowingly on my hands, and it does get pretty hot, but it's generally fine.

I'm fairly sure the plant based stuff is safe but it isn't medically approved.  That stuff costs a fortune (if you can even find it).  I use Lack 3 (or the Egger equivalent) as I think most people do.  I'm not sure if there is any benefit to not using lacquer, except possibly if you prefer a matte finish?  Or just can't get hold of any


----------



## stegeoc

talyak said:


> oh, i was just thinking about building an impedance test rig earlier today. do you have any recommendations on how to do it or tutorials that you know of?


I followed the guide here: https://www.roomeqwizard.com/help/help_en-GB/html/impedancemeasurement.html
and made a few minor tweaks and used LIMP for measurements.  Very simple and it's very accurate


----------



## talyak

stegeoc said:


> For curing I use a UV nail light.  I try not to stare at it too much, but I guess some people use these things a lot so it shouldn't be too harmful.  I have held things under it with resin unknowingly on my hands, and it does get pretty hot, but it's generally fine.
> 
> I'm fairly sure the plant based stuff is safe but it isn't medically approved.  That stuff costs a fortune (if you can even find it).  I use Lack 3 (or the Egger equivalent) as I think most people do.  I'm not sure if there is any benefit to not using lacquer, except possibly if you prefer a matte finish?  Or just can't get hold of any


yeah, its probably mostly fine, given a lot of people do their nails on a regular basis with those things. the downside of course is that they are very small for anything larger than an iem.

the reason id rather not use lacquer is more about ease of creation than anything else. with my chronic pain i can only do so much in a day, so i tend to try to min-max for doing things with as little physical work as possible. tho i currently only have an fdm printer, so lacquer is gonna be necessary once i get my impressions done, and am building ciem designs.



stegeoc said:


> I followed the guide here: https://www.roomeqwizard.com/help/help_en-GB/html/impedancemeasurement.html
> and made a few minor tweaks and used LIMP for measurements.  Very simple and it's very accurate


thanks! thats really helpful


----------



## BobbyKa

stegeoc said:


> The graph looks very much like one of the drivers has the wrong polarity somehow.  I know you are ok now, but perhaps you have a loose or stray wire that is causing an intermittent issue?
> 
> Incidentally, I also had an IMM6 and gave up on it.  Probably my fault but the mic came unglued within the spout and I could never get it to measure nicely after fixing it back.  A cheap 711 clone from china was certainly more worth it for me.
> 
> Also, I did far too many builds before knocking up an impedance testing rig.  I'd recommend doing that early on as it is useful for checking for ruling out any wiring issues


I think I know what the problem was. And yes, it had to do with the settings i did.
I wrote that i did not change anything to make it work, but found out that this is not true. Each time i unplug the imm-6 from the Laptop (and i did this each time i change the inear or check the seal of the tube) and plug it in again, i have to select the device in REW again. There, I get a list of several devices. Without realising i sometimes did choose "Headphone (....)" and "Headset (...) and other times I chose "EXCL: Headphone (...)" and "EXCL: Headset (...)". The first mentioned gives the results that look wrong, the second ones (with "EXCL" in the name) gives the "correct" curves. Now I get the attached curves for the different InEars that I had laying around. The seal of the Tube seems to be great. Just plugging the tube to the imm-6 and the inear i get the same curves like carefuly sealing both ends with self fusing silicon tape (which for me seems to be perfect tape for this job).


----------



## BadgerMcBadger

talyak said:


> yeah, its probably mostly fine, given a lot of people do their nails on a regular basis with those things. the downside of course is that they are very small for anything larger than an iem.
> 
> the reason id rather not use lacquer is more about ease of creation than anything else. with my chronic pain i can only do so much in a day, so i tend to try to min-max for doing things with as little physical work as possible. tho i currently only have an fdm printer, so lacquer is gonna be necessary once i get my impressions done, and am building ciem designs.
> 
> ...


somebody wrote on this thread that the lacquar can react with non bio-compatible materials which makes it no longer skin safe. i dont know if its true but i feel like its worth pointing out


----------



## talyak

BadgerMcBadger said:


> somebody wrote on this thread that the lacquar can react with non bio-compatible materials which makes it no longer skin safe. i dont know if its true but i feel like its worth pointing out


well, lack 3 is specifically designed to cover non bio-compatible things with a skin-safe coating, so unless it has a chemical reaction with an incompatible material and breaks down for some reason, it will be fine. it doesnt just become instantly unsafe the second you put it on something not bio-compatible lol. like all things that react chemically (that's what is happening when lack 3 hardens) there will be materials you shouldnt use it on. pla and abs etc tho should be totally fine.


----------



## BadgerMcBadger

talyak said:


> well, lack 3 is specifically designed to cover non bio-compatible things with a skin-safe coating, so unless it has a chemical reaction with an incompatible material and breaks down for some reason, it will be fine. it doesnt just become instantly unsafe the second you put it on something not bio-compatible lol. like all things that react chemically (that's what is happening when lack 3 hardens) there will be materials you shouldnt use it on. pla and abs etc tho should be totally fine.


oh, i did not know it. he might have said that i regards to someother lacquer type


----------



## talyak

anyone tried the new rlq-34240 dual diaphragm woofer from knowles?
might order a pair when i get the rau supertweeters.


----------



## GeneBush

talyak said:


> anyone tried the new rlq-34240 dual diaphragm woofer from knowles?
> might order a pair when i get the rau supertweeters.


Hey man where did you find the Rau from knowles? Any link will be appreciated!
Thnx in advance!


----------



## musmecca

talyak said:


> anyone tried the new rlq-34240 dual diaphragm woofer from knowles?
> might order a pair when i get the rau supertweeters.


I actually have the RDI-33438's on order from Digi-key.  Specs look like a Sonion 38 which is good news as Digikey doesn't sell Sonion. I'll keep you posted.


----------



## BadgerMcBadger (Jan 5, 2023)

would there be a problem in using a light source that is both 405nm and 365 nm to cure fotoplast?


----------



## talyak (Jan 5, 2023)

GeneBush said:


> Hey man where did you find the Rau from knowles? Any link will be appreciated!
> Thnx in advance!


so far the only place ive found is this taobao store. youll need to use a service like superbuy to get it if you arent in china tho. you can also get the rlq there if you are wanting to do some experimentation with some of knowles' latest drivers. (edit: order at your own risk. i cant yet confirm these are legitimate drivers from knowles and not some knock offs, and have yet to order them myself, so i cant confirm the fr and impedance matches the knowles spec sheet)

rau:
https://world.taobao.com/item/692448657954.htm?spm=a21wu.11804641-tw.shop-content.23.f7f6606ffAYhuZ
rlq:
https://world.taobao.com/item/69259...12321156-tw.recommend-bottom.6.39ef25692qdv3Y



musmecca said:


> I actually have the RDI-33438's on order from Digi-key.  Specs look like a Sonion 38 which is good news as Digikey doesn't sell Sonion. I'll keep you posted.


interesting. that one looks cool. is that knowles first bass focused dual driver?

the rlq is a dual diaphragm in one driver design, not a double driver design. so im really curious to see how it performs, especially as it seems to have a fairly low-end focused fr in such a small unit (the diagonal size is 4.4mm as apposed to the rdi's 6.4mm).


----------



## talyak (Jan 5, 2023)

im mostly just curious about the new drivers cos most ba iems just remix the same few drivers from the past few years. i feel like thats part of why the high-end iem market hasnt had much innovation in the past few years. the only real way to innovate is to modify/make new bas or switch to hybrid/tribrid setups. like, the u12t has been basically end-game for what, 5+ years now? 64 audio have done barely anything new since the introduction of the tia driver. and they are still some of the best iems period. moondrop themselves have said that they havent updated the s8 cos they cant really make any improvements on it. symphonium and subtonic seem to be pushing the envelope with ba bass. but short of dismantling the helios or (heavens forbid) the storm its gonna be hard to replicate that in a DIY build.
edit: (plus i got size requirements that most large shell designs wont match)


----------



## stegeoc

talyak said:


> yeah, its probably mostly fine, given a lot of people do their nails on a regular basis with those things. the downside of course is that they are very small for anything larger than an iem.
> 
> the reason id rather not use lacquer is more about ease of creation than anything else. with my chronic pain i can only do so much in a day, so i tend to try to min-max for doing things with as little physical work as possible. tho i currently only have an fdm printer, so lacquer is gonna be necessary once i get my impressions done, and am building ciem designs.
> 
> ...


Lacquer is really quite remarkable in the way it makes even the roughest and messiest shells look fantastic very quickly.  Far far easier than sanding and polishing smooth.  And if you airbrush (or dip even) you'll get it done even quicker.

Getting a 100% professional glass look with a clear shell still alludes me, but anything coloured or tinted will be near perfect with minimal effort.  Use it!


----------



## talyak

stegeoc said:


> Lacquer is really quite remarkable in the way it makes even the roughest and messiest shells look fantastic very quickly.  Far far easier than sanding and polishing smooth.  And if you airbrush (or dip even) you'll get it done even quicker.
> 
> Getting a 100% professional glass look with a clear shell still alludes me, but anything coloured or tinted will be near perfect with minimal effort.  Use it!


lacquer may use less effort than polishing, but you know what uses even less? doing neither lol
when i have a resin printer im gonna focus on just getting a good enough finish from the printer. im far more interested in performance than looks


----------



## discus123

talyak said:


> so far the only place ive found is this taobao store. youll need to use a service like superbuy to get it if you arent in china tho. you can also get the rlq there if you are wanting to do some experimentation with some of knowles' latest drivers. (edit: order at your own risk. i cant yet confirm these are legitimate drivers from knowles and not some knock offs, and have yet to order them myself, so i cant confirm the fr and impedance matches the knowles spec sheet)
> 
> rau:
> https://world.taobao.com/item/692448657954.htm?spm=a21wu.11804641-tw.shop-content.23.f7f6606ffAYhuZ
> ...


I spoke with the seller RAU-34832 no more stock, he said, not sure when will have stock, may be after chinese new year.  I wanna try this one also. You are lucky if you have it.


----------



## talyak

discus123 said:


> I spoke with the seller RAU-34832 no more stock, he said, not sure when will have stock, may be after chinese new year.  I wanna try this one also. You are lucky if you have it.


thats sad to hear. im probs not gonna be ordering them for a month or so anyway tho, so no big deal


----------



## stegeoc

talyak said:


> lacquer may use less effort than polishing, but you know what uses even less? doing neither lol
> when i have a resin printer im gonna focus on just getting a good enough finish from the printer. im far more interested in performance than looks


Haha, quite right.  Reading these forums and seeing the quality that many people produce does leave me wanting to make mine better looking, but you're right of course.  The raw printed shells are very smooth already and I've worn them like that before for long periods with no problems with comfort.  Slightly looser, naturally, but they still seal file for me straight from the printer.  Sometimes I spend ages before I get around to lacquering them.  Unlacquered shells also don't show fingerprints, so that's a plus


----------



## talyak

stegeoc said:


> Haha, quite right.  Reading these forums and seeing the quality that many people produce does leave me wanting to make mine better looking, but you're right of course.  The raw printed shells are very smooth already and I've worn them like that before for long periods with no problems with comfort.  Slightly looser, naturally, but they still seal file for me straight from the printer.  Sometimes I spend ages before I get around to lacquering them.  Unlacquered shells also don't show fingerprints, so that's a plus


yeah. you can also just increase the size by a few percent if you want them to fit a little tighter. the finishes are super nice. but the design im working up to will sit so far in the ear canal, it doesnt really matter. comfort, usability, and performance will always come first for me. i just want to get my design to a end-game level audio quality, then focus on the tws aspects. we are finally getting to the point where bluetooth should have little to no impact on audio quality with aptx lossless. so making something that will sound end-game but have all the utility of the airpods pro should be achievable now or in the near future.


----------



## talyak (Friday at 6:06 AM)

the downside/upside of learning all this shiz is that it kinda breaks the marketing illusion of all the "patented" circuit designs that basically just amount to a collection of high, low, band passes, notch filters and zobels. i feel like it would be a bit of a killjoy move to point out that various brands are marketing themselves with fancy names for basic circuit designs. but it also feels extremely silly that they get away with selling their hardware on "innovation" that amounts to basic circuit design you can learn in an afternoon on the internet.
the experimentation required to tune the stuff is great. the glitzy marketing for what should be the bare minimum is kinda hollow.
edit: (its also a reminder that the patent system is broken af and really needs to not exist. at least in the way it is rn)


----------



## BadgerMcBadger

do both the exterior and interior of the shells need to be covered in glycerin? and also, will there be a problem with both 405nm and 365nm light source to cure fotoplast s/io?


----------



## musmecca

BadgerMcBadger said:


> do both the exterior and interior of the shells need to be covered in glycerin? and also, will there be a problem with both 405nm and 365nm light source to cure fotoplast s/io?


Yes...you need to submerge the unfinished shell into glycerin to prevent the sticky inhibition layer. On the inside of the shell, make sure it is fully filled with glycerin as any bubble with become permanently visible on your shell. Pictured is how I do it....I have a glass cup filled with glycerine that I submerge the shells into. I then put the glass into my chamber and final cure for a few minutes.  I'll then take them out and clean with soapy water.  Regarding the fotoplast, my understanding is 365 is the standard.


----------



## FranckZZZ

can anyone share a good or bad story of getting a set of the Susvara from a site that allows returns...


----------



## mattmatt

BadgerMcBadger said:


> do both the exterior and interior of the shells need to be covered in glycerin? and also, will there be a problem with both 405nm and 365nm light source to cure fotoplast s/io?





musmecca said:


> Yes...you need to submerge the unfinished shell into glycerin to prevent the sticky inhibition layer. On the inside of the shell, make sure it is fully filled with glycerin as any bubble with become permanently visible on your shell. Pictured is how I do it....I have a glass cup filled with glycerine that I submerge the shells into. I then put the glass into my chamber and final cure for a few minutes.  I'll then take them out and clean with soapy water.  Regarding the fotoplast, my understanding is 365 is the standard.


Actually, you don't have to submerge the entire shell. 1. Cure for thickness, 2. Pour out excess, 3. Cure again for few minutes without removing it from the hydrocolloid, 4. Pour glycerin to shell and cure for few minutes. 

The outside of the shell is inhibition layer free already.


----------



## musmecca

mattmatt said:


> Actually, you don't have to submerge the entire shell. 1. Cure for thickness, 2. Pour out excess, 3. Cure again for few minutes without removing it from the hydrocolloid, 4. Pour glycerin to shell and cure for few minutes.
> 
> The outside of the shell is inhibition layer free already.


You are correct if you don't remove the shell.  However, I always remove my shells and inspect them, as I don't want to waste my time on a shell with a large defect. I also do multiple shells at one time so I'm curing another set of shells in my form while the finals are in the glycerine batch...just a different process, but both work.


----------



## talyak

FranckZZZ said:


> can anyone share a good or bad story of getting a set of the Susvara from a site that allows returns...


kinda the wrong thread for that lmao


----------



## FranckZZZ

talyak said:


> kinda the wrong thread for that lmao


SORRY


----------



## swtnate

mattmatt said:


> Actually, you don't have to submerge the entire shell. 1. Cure for thickness, 2. Pour out excess, 3. Cure again for few minutes without removing it from the hydrocolloid, 4. Pour glycerin to shell and cure for few minutes.
> 
> The outside of the shell is inhibition layer free already.


This is the way.


----------



## mattmatt

stegeoc said:


> Lacquer is really quite remarkable in the way it makes even the roughest and messiest shells look fantastic very quickly.  Far far easier than sanding and polishing smooth.  And if you airbrush (or dip even) you'll get it done even quicker.
> 
> Getting a 100% professional glass look with a clear shell still alludes me, but anything coloured or tinted will be near perfect with minimal effort.  Use it!


Clear shells are really hard but still one of my favorites to make.


----------



## tonybuild

The way i do it ,i just dip it in the egger lack and cure it . Of  course i close the canals and connector with the tape first)

I can polish by hand or brush the egger on it , but its leaves lines from the brush  that i really cant go with it .
I wonder if i can find some spray with uv lack.


----------



## tonybuild

mattmatt said:


> Clear shells are really hard but still one of my favorites to make.


Very nice job. 
Look like you dip it too or airbrushed it


----------



## mattmatt

tonybuild said:


> Very nice job.
> Look like you dip it too or airbrushed it


I think I'm actually the few ones who started airbrushing IEMs in the thread since I was fascinated with Empire Ears and JH Audio. I can achieve both results with brushing and airbrushing but airbrushing is definitely easier to get really good results. The set I posted above are hand brushed tho. 

Tho I have my own mixture that works well for me.


----------



## alvinlok

Are there any crossover recommendation for the following 12-BAs setup?

Lows: 2 x 38AJ007
Mids: 3 x 28UAP01
Highs: 1 x 2389
Upper Highs: 30095

Thank you!!!


----------



## BadgerMcBadger

mattmatt said:


> Actually, you don't have to submerge the entire shell. 1. Cure for thickness, 2. Pour out excess, 3. Cure again for few minutes without removing it from the hydrocolloid, 4. Pour glycerin to shell and cure for few minutes.
> 
> The outside of the shell is inhibition layer free already.


how am i supposed to know when to stop curing during the third step? im using an 80w lamp so it might take shorter than a few minutes.


----------



## mattmatt

BadgerMcBadger said:


> how am i supposed to know when to stop curing during the third step? im using an 80w lamp so it might take shorter than a few minutes.


It's kind of a feeling from experience. You should know that it's good to go when resin is not runny inside and only inhibition layer exists inside the shell.


----------



## talyak (Sunday at 1:23 AM)

alvinlok said:


> Are there any crossover recommendation for the following 12-BAs setup?
> 
> Lows: 2 x 38AJ007
> Mids: 3 x 28UAP01
> ...


you trying a a12t-alike?
youll probs need to figure out a crossover for them yourself. low-pass on the 38s, band passes on the 28s and 2389, high pass on the 30095. you can use crossover calculators to get the exact values of capacitors and resistors, then layout the circuit on xsim. you'd best get impedance values and frequency response for each of the driver groupings.

edit: (if this is your first DIY build youd probs be better off going with something easier with a complete recipe)


----------



## swtnate

mattmatt said:


> Clear shells are really hard but still one of my favorites to make.


Dang.  Thats kinda nuts.  They always tinge at least a little.  These look crazy good.


----------



## mattmatt

swtnate said:


> Dang.  Thats kinda nuts.  They always tinge at least a little.  These look crazy good.


A lot of trial and error went to getting those results, my dude. 🤣


----------



## BadgerMcBadger

have anybody here had success with using bondic for gluing the faceplate ? i dont see a reason for why it shouldnt work but i would like a confirmation


----------



## musmecca

BadgerMcBadger said:


> have anybody here had success with using bondic for gluing the faceplate ? i dont see a reason for why it shouldnt work but i would like a confirmation


Bondic is all I use.


----------



## swtnate

musmecca said:


> Bondic is all I use.


The issue Ive had with Bondic is if you need open the shell, its not as easy using a razor blade like its is with dreve faceplate adhesive.


----------



## BadgerMcBadger

what tolerance is usually considered acceptable for the zobel circu_its?_


----------



## swtnate

BadgerMcBadger said:


> what tolerance is usually considered acceptable for the zobel circu_its?_


The tighter your tolerance with the components the better.  I use SM MELF resistors to help with that. MELFs also reduce signal noise.  Standard smd ceramic capacitors will suffice.  Remember, the signal is passive, so unless you give the headset a boosted active signal, its difficult to cause damage of the components.


----------



## BadgerMcBadger

> signal is passive, so unless you give the headset a boosted active signal,


can you elaborate more? im not sure i understand what do you mean by a passive and active signal


----------



## BadgerMcBadger

what precentage of tolerance do you usually use?


swtnate said:


> The tighter your tolerance with the components the better.  I use SM MELF resistors to help with that. MELFs also reduce signal noise.  Standard smd ceramic capacitors will suffice.  Remember, the signal is passive, so unless you give the headset a boosted active signal, its difficult to cause damage of the components.


what tolerance do you usually settle for?


----------



## swtnate

MELFs are usually like .1-.5% capacitors are more like 5-10%


----------



## tomekk

External SMD tuning to have more fun


----------



## talyak

tomekk said:


> External SMD tuning to have more fun


thats cool. i plan to do something similar with my TOTL build. (tho im half tempted to implement an active dsp crossover)


----------



## swtnate (Tuesday at 8:05 AM)

Here’s the newest iteration I have come up with;
10 driver triple bore custom IEMs with relatively flat, slightly scooped in the mid to upper-mids.  
Shell color is electric yellow resin (Pro3dure PR-1) 
the faceplates were made from combining Blue and Red PR-1 with small amount of black ink.

There will be ONE more tweak I make to these before being satisfied.  The sub frequencies sound TOO restricted to my natural ear, which is a bit of a shock.  I plan to either dial back the series resistor or swap the sonion 3300 for my newly arrived 3800.  With an external EQ I can get the boosted response though…. SOOO, I might just leave these as is and work on another iteration that includes the 3300 with less added series resistance OR use a 3800.  Time will tell…. If anyone is interested in the components used, tubing, dampers, estron wire, etc. shoot me a DM.  Once they are perfected I will post the final version.  Good to finally BE THROUGH this journey.  It’s NUTS how long it has taken to get all the drivers in tune, phase issues eliminated, and the proper internal room to run three tubes with dampers.  This build may not work for those with small canals.


----------



## talyak

swtnate said:


> Here’s the newest iteration I have come up with;
> 10 driver triple bore custom IEMs with relatively flat, slightly scooped in the mid to upper-mids.
> Shell color is electric yellow resin (Pro3dure PR-1)
> the faceplates were made from combining Blue and Red PR-1 with small amount of black ink.
> ...


they are looking awesome! what's your driver line-up? oh and what target are you normalising to?


----------



## swtnate

talyak said:


> they are looking awesome! what's your driver line-up? oh and what target are you normalising to?


I use 130dB and I calibrate my mic using a signal calibrater:
this has the following drivers in each ear:
1x 33AJ007i/9 yellow damper

1x 28UAP 
1x TWFK
coupled into one 3mmOD using a green damper

2x SWFK
coupled into one 3mmOD using a grey damper


----------



## talyak (Tuesday at 8:57 AM)

swtnate said:


> I use 130dB and I calibrate my mic using a signal calibrater:
> this has the following drivers in each ear:
> 1x 33AJ007i/9 yellow damper
> 
> ...


so it has a flat response without any normalisation? wouldn't that make the treble/upper mids/bass pretty boring?
edit: (what im asking is whether you are normalising to harman combined, or ief neutral, or diffuse field, etc?)
edit2: (130db also seems extremely high given that normal safe listening levels are like 80db)


----------



## talyak

has anyone used the sonion dual driver units as two separate drivers before? it occurred to me that it should be possible to have one with a crossover to give a 5db bass shelf at 200hz or so. then use the second driver to make it keep rising under 100hz to give a sub-bass rumbling in your soul type vibe


----------



## swtnate (Tuesday at 9:50 AM)

talyak said:


> so it has a flat response without any normalisation? wouldn't that make the treble/upper mids/bass pretty boring?
> edit: (what im asking is whether you are normalising to harman combined, or ief neutral, or diffuse field, etc?)
> edit2: (130db also seems extremely high given that normal safe listening levels are like 80db)


I essentially calibrate and test the drivers as identical as I can get to the manufacturer test conditions.  Also, I wanted an EQ that is SUPER malleable with an external Eq.  But, yes, the bass was a bit TOO lacking.


----------



## swtnate

talyak said:


> has anyone used the sonion dual driver units as two separate drivers before? it occurred to me that it should be possible to have one with a crossover to give a 5db bass shelf at 200hz or so. then use the second driver to make it keep rising under 100hz to give a sub-bass rumbling in your soul type vibe


You’d be hard pressed to split the dual sub drivers and achieve what you are describing.  You can get close using the 3800 acupass.


----------



## BadgerMcBadger

musmecca said:


> Yes...you need to submerge the unfinished shell into glycerin to prevent the sticky inhibition layer. On the inside of the shell, make sure it is fully filled with glycerin as any bubble with become permanently visible on your shell. Pictured is how I do it....I have a glass cup filled with glycerine that I submerge the shells into. I then put the glass into my chamber and final cure for a few minutes.  I'll then take them out and clean with soapy water.  Regarding the fotoplast, my understanding is 365 is the standard.


what is the total power output of the setup in the picture? i think i will do something similiar


----------



## piotrus-g

talyak said:


> has anyone used the sonion dual driver units as two separate drivers before? it occurred to me that it should be possible to have one with a crossover to give a 5db bass shelf at 200hz or so. then use the second driver to make it keep rising under 100hz to give a sub-bass rumbling in your soul type vibe


Funnily enough that was one of the first configuration I built in early 2013.
From the description I'd say guys at Subtonic could be doing something of that sorts, but I really can't say for sure.
Overall I haven't revisited this type of wiring since back in the day (which I guess is telling). You might be actually better off just using say 2x3300 instead of single 3300 with split wiring - more headroom, less distortion and overall more control of the fr response as you could additionally play with resistance/inductance of each unit.


----------



## swtnate

piotrus-g said:


> Funnily enough that was one of the first configuration I built in early 2013.
> From the description I'd say guys at Subtonic could be doing something of that sorts, but I really can't say for sure.
> Overall I haven't revisited this type of wiring since back in the day (which I guess is telling). You might be actually better off just using say 2x3300 instead of single 3300 with split wiring - more headroom, less distortion and overall more control of the fr response as you could additionally play with resistance/inductance of each unit.


THE MAN always shows up when needed!  I would think that a split would for sure lower the headroom that was designed for the driver as one driver would be pushing sub and another pushing bass.  Meanwhile, I just wish Sonion sold the 3300 and 3800 pre-wired in parallel. Lol.


----------



## Xymordos

piotrus-g said:


> Funnily enough that was one of the first configuration I built in early 2013.
> From the description I'd say guys at Subtonic could be doing something of that sorts, but I really can't say for sure.
> Overall I haven't revisited this type of wiring since back in the day (which I guess is telling). You might be actually better off just using say 2x3300 instead of single 3300 with split wiring - more headroom, less distortion and overall more control of the fr response as you could additionally play with resistance/inductance of each unit.



Definitely agree here! Seems like unless you're limited by budget or space, it'll always be better just to use another driver for the same purpose.


----------



## Wgibson

If you block one of the vents, you could physically do something similar. And try adding a vent to a sealed driver to use as a sub. I've posted this before, but this sonion driver is similar to a CI


Driver used in this 4BA with tuning switches, worked out great.


----------



## talyak

piotrus-g said:


> Funnily enough that was one of the first configuration I built in early 2013.
> From the description I'd say guys at Subtonic could be doing something of that sorts, but I really can't say for sure.
> Overall I haven't revisited this type of wiring since back in the day (which I guess is telling). You might be actually better off just using say 2x3300 instead of single 3300 with split wiring - more headroom, less distortion and overall more control of the fr response as you could additionally play with resistance/inductance of each unit.


thanks for the info!
yeah the slam drivers look to be separated dual driver setups. pretty cool, tho probs not very achievable as a DIYer. (at least not without dismantling one of their iems lol)



Xymordos said:


> Definitely agree here! Seems like unless you're limited by budget or space, it'll always be better just to use another driver for the same purpose.


i am limited on space as the design im going for is entirely in the ear canal. i cant fill up the concha with like a dozen drivers and still get the optimal position for the mic on my tws design. just trying to mess around with ideas to get maximum detail with minimal driver counts/driver sizes. hence tia like tubeless highs driver, and ferrofluid mids.


----------



## mattmatt

swtnate said:


> THE MAN always shows up when needed!  I would think that a split would for sure lower the headroom that was designed for the driver as one driver would be pushing sub and another pushing bass.  Meanwhile, I just wish Sonion sold the 3300 and 3800 pre-wired in parallel. Lol.


I don't think that will happen since a lot of people use them wired in series.


----------



## talyak

swtnate said:


> I essentially calibrate and test the drivers as identical as I can get to the manufacturer test conditions.  Also, I wanted an EQ that is SUPER malleable with an external Eq.  But, yes, the bass was a bit TOO lacking.


fair yeah. the reason i ask is that most iems and headphones have a pinna gain at 2-3k, like the harman curve. to make the upper mids and lower highs sound more natural (closer to what a typical ear hears), then they look flatter when compensating for the target curve. the flatter response on top is compensated (compensated to crins ief neutral), with the grayed out curve below being the raw measurement.




your flat raw measurements kinda threw me, but i guess if the design takes EQ really well, that would be pretty easy to add pinna gain in software.


----------



## swtnate

talyak said:


> fair yeah. the reason i ask is that most iems and headphones have a pinna gain at 2-3k, like the harman curve. to make the upper mids and lower highs sound more natural (closer to what a typical ear hears), then they look flatter when compensating for the target curve. the flatter response on top is compensated (compensated to crins ief neutral), with the grayed out curve below being the raw measurement.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I compare raw eq then make adjustments, after the set-up, by ear.  My FR are always raw and always calibrated to the same peak of 130dB.  That way all measurements are standardized across the 8 different driver configurations I currently build.


----------



## swtnate

Also, I no longer reference the Harmin curve.  I use the updated Knowles curve with the extended high shelf.


----------



## Xymordos

swtnate said:


> Also, I no longer reference the Harmin curve.  I use the updated Knowles curve with the extended high shelf.



Oh where is this, I'd like to take a look too


----------



## mattmatt

Xymordos said:


> Oh where is this, I'd like to take a look too


----------



## talyak (Yesterday at 1:25 AM)

thats pretty much exactly where i ended up with my own personal tweaks. adding back in the highs on iems with a harman like curve feels like you just took an earplug out of your ear. sooooo much more detail and air. without much in the way of sibilance or sharpness.
edit: (admittedly, i think i may have some hearing damage, so i may have lost some highs. tho i have yet to have my ears properly tested)


----------



## talyak

anyone tried sanding off or opening up the top of any drivers? im half tempted to order two pairs of rab-33518s (the automated production version of wbfk-30095), so i can attempt to delid one pair. reading 64 audio's description of how they came to the tia design mentions that they first came across the advantages of their design by sanding off the tops to expose the diaphragm.


----------



## slakoth453

talyak said:


> anyone tried sanding off or opening up the top of any drivers? im half tempted to order two pairs of rab-33518s (the automated production version of wbfk-30095), so i can attempt to delid one pair. reading 64 audio's description of how they came to the tia design mentions that they first came across the advantages of their design by sanding off the tops to expose the diaphragm.


Wanted to try that with some kz drivers but I imagine the metal dust could cause issues. I'll give it a try when I have the time.


----------



## piotrus-g

swtnate said:


> THE MAN always shows up when needed!  I would think that a split would for sure lower the headroom that was designed for the driver as one driver would be pushing sub and another pushing bass.  Meanwhile, I just wish Sonion sold the 3300 and 3800 pre-wired in parallel. Lol.


There's 33AP007 if you are looking for non-vented solution
3800-pre wired would be a custom part - they do exists but not available unless in x kpcs


Xymordos said:


> Definitely agree here! Seems like unless you're limited by budget or space, it'll always be better just to use another driver for the same purpose.


Yup pretty much.


----------



## talyak

slakoth453 said:


> Wanted to try that with some kz drivers but I imagine the metal dust could cause issues. I'll give it a try when I have the time.


yeah, i dont really have the tools/environment to grind the top off safely rn. i might not try with the 33518s cos they look like they are gonna need it at the very least filed off, but there are a few drivers that look like it might be possible to pry the tops off of. then again, if i can be bothered to go to the large amount of effort required, i could probs do it with a hand file safely.


----------



## tomekk (Yesterday at 9:30 AM)

I have a project with BACK open vented DTEC, worried about overdrives and cracking sound but managed to vent them without a problem. I also saw a commercial IEM open BACK DTEC somewhere.


----------



## Xymordos

mattmatt said:


>



Oof that would be too sharp for me, I'd like the 15kHz to be around the same level as 1kHz personally.


----------



## piotrus-g

tomekk said:


> I have a project with BACK open vented DTEC, worried about overdrives and cracking sound but managed to vent them without a problem. I also saw a commercial IEM open BACK DTEC somewhere.


UM early models used this modification on 33AP007. Very easy to damage the housing permanently when you do that. Plus it's really hard to control vent diameter so you end up with big differences between each piece.


----------



## tomekk

Right! Looks drilled. Interesting story.


----------



## slakoth453

talyak said:


> yeah, i dont really have the tools/environment to grind the top off safely rn. i might not try with the 33518s cos they look like they are gonna need it at the very least filed off, but there are a few drivers that look like it might be possible to pry the tops off of. then again, if i can be bothered to go to the large amount of effort required, i could probs do it with a hand file safely.


Sandpaper worked, still makes sound.


----------



## mattmatt

slakoth453 said:


> Sandpaper worked, still makes sound.


scary stuff! Good job my man. You have surgical hands I suppose.


----------



## talyak (Today at 8:32 AM)

slakoth453 said:


> Sandpaper worked, still makes sound.


awesome!! which driver is that? did you sand it down by hand or use a machine? im super curious about how it sounds detail wise.


----------



## slakoth453

talyak said:


> awesome!! which driver is that? did you send it down by hand or use a machine? im super curious about how it sounds detail wise.


It's a kz 30095, didn't want to risk anything expensive. No machine, just sandpaper on a flat surface. Really wasn't as difficult as it seems. I don't have the time for any builds right now but I might pair it with a dd at some point to see how it sounds.


----------



## talyak

slakoth453 said:


> It's a kz 30095, didn't want to risk anything expensive. No machine, just sandpaper on a flat surface. Really wasn't as difficult as it seems. I don't have the time for any builds right now but I might pair it with a dd at some point to see how it sounds.


brilliant. that gives me a lot of confidence to attempt the same with the 33518s (thankfully they are also cheap). what grit did you use?


----------



## slakoth453

talyak said:


> brilliant. that gives me a lot of confidence to attempt the same with the 33518s (thankfully they are also cheap). what grit did you use?


600, then 400 because I got impatient.


----------



## talyak (Today at 11:48 AM)

now i just need UPS to stop holding on to my drivers, so i can actually test what the feds are like.

reading a little more on what subtonic are doing with their slam drivers... they are basically doing exactly what we were talking about the other day with a dual driver setup using them as individual bass drivers with a crossover on each. but they are also venting the sub-woofer, to maximise that extension. they are using knowles dual woofers. my first guess is the rdi-33438, as that seems like the driver that i think most closely matches what they are describing (or possibly one of the dtec pairs), but this is pure speculation. apparently the drivers initially have coupled contacts, so you have no choice but to use a single crossover for both, and i believe thats what they are talking about when they talk about uncoupling. they talk about the mid-bass driver having an internal chamber, but i think this just means that it doesnt have an external chamber and isnt vented. so, my guess is that to achieve the same things they are, the trick will be to vent one of a dual driver unit, and restrict that vented driver to solely sub-bass. allowing the mid-bass to display maximum speed, while having the slow rumble/decay of a vented driver in the sub-bass. obviously i dont have drivers on hand to test this, so its all speculation for now.


----------



## talyak

i might give it a go with a pair of sonion 38s, but thats not gonna happen any time soon, as those things are expensive.


----------



## talyak

imo it looks like subtonic are going the all electronics route, with minimal damping given the 7 way crossover. which imo is probs a good move as the iems that play at the top of the game for detail seem to avoid extensive damping (for example the 64 audio tia design). i think it would be pretty simple to create a decent bass shelf purely with crossovers. so no need for even acupass. that mixed with a 33518 with the top sanded off as a highs driver, i may be getting close to that level. obviously i may end up with tia-like spiky treble, but as long as it doesnt get harsh, im fine with that. the tia fourté has a second tia driver for the low-mids, with a normal driver for the upper mids. according to 64 audio, at the time they couldnt find an upper-mids driver that could be used with the top removed. but its been like 6 years since that came out, so there may be good alternatives.

its legitimately awesome that two high-end brands have been pushing the limits of what ba drivers can do both in the highs and lows. i could seriously see an all ba iem having the punch and slam of dd bass, with the extension and detail of est highs. and losing none of the coherency that is lost the second you get into hybrid and tribrid designs. obviously this would require both subtonic and 64 audio to work together on something given all the patent bs. but for a non-commercial diy recipe we might be able to get close.


----------



## swtnate

talyak said:


> imo it looks like subtonic are going the all electronics route, with minimal damping given the 7 way crossover. which imo is probs a good move as the iems that play at the top of the game for detail seem to avoid extensive damping (for example the 64 audio tia design). i think it would be pretty simple to create a decent bass shelf purely with crossovers. so no need for even acupass. that mixed with a 33518 with the top sanded off as a highs driver, i may be getting close to that level. obviously i may end up with tia-like spiky treble, but as long as it doesnt get harsh, im fine with that. the tia fourté has a second tia driver for the low-mids, with a normal driver for the upper mids. according to 64 audio, at the time they couldnt find an upper-mids driver that could be used with the top removed. but its been like 6 years since that came out, so there may be good alternatives.
> 
> its legitimately awesome that two high-end brands have been pushing the limits of what ba drivers can do both in the highs and lows. i could seriously see an all ba iem having the punch and slam of dd bass, with the extension and detail of est highs. and losing none of the coherency that is lost the second you get into hybrid and tribrid designs. obviously this would require both subtonic and 64 audio to work together on something given all the patent bs. but for a non-commercial diy recipe we might be able to get close.


Those drivers are 💯 proprietary drivers. Your journey will be arduous.


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## talyak (Today at 1:14 PM)

swtnate said:


> Those drivers are 💯 proprietary drivers. Your journey will be arduous.


even if they get drivers customised from a manufacturer, they still need to get to that point via experimentation. sure 64 audio have an exclusive contract for the tia drivers, but first they found out what they wanted via modifying off the shelf drivers. there's no way we can achieve the quality assurance of mass produced drivers, but there is no reason we can't get say 90% of the performance by modifying off the shelf drivers in the same way.

their designs don't just appear from nowhere. and knowles/sonion arent about to do the research themselves then limit sales to a single brand. we can glean most of how they managed it via marketing materials. both subtonic and 64 audio have written and posted articles on how they achieve their performance. im just making plans to replicate what they said they did, and see if i can get similar results.


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## talyak

not to mention the fact that im not trying to replicate their designs 100% accurately. im not trying to make an off-brand u12t or storm. im not trying to have my iems sound the same as theirs. i have different design requirements and am just looking for the best ways to get the best possible performance within those requirements. part of the reason im doing this research is specifically because i cant just throw 12 ba drivers in an iem and call it a day. my design is limited to 4-6. plus i only need a couple of pairs of my end-game design to last me years. so if i can get something that sounds almost as good as a 64 audio iem in the highs and almost as good as a subtonic/symphonium iem in the lows, i don't mind if i end up killing a few drivers in the process of experimenting.


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## Wgibson

Look for sony BAs, or find some used and pull yourself, some of those are open / no spout. If you twist the nozzle off a 30095 just right, you can pull the whole side off with it. Test on dead/scrap drivers, it is not a safe method...


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## talyak

Wgibson said:


> Look for sony BAs, or find some used and pull yourself, some of those are open / no spout. If you twist the nozzle off a 30095 just right, you can pull the whole side off with it. Test on dead/scrap drivers, it is not a safe method...


I'll give that a go if the sandpaper method proves too inconsistent


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## piotrus-g (Today at 4:22 PM)

talyak said:


> now i just need UPS to stop holding on to my drivers, so i can actually test what the feds are like.
> 
> reading a little more on what subtonic are doing with their slam drivers... they are basically doing exactly what we were talking about the other day with a dual driver setup using them as individual bass drivers with a crossover on each. but they are also venting the sub-woofer, to maximise that extension. they are using knowles dual woofers. my first guess is the rdi-33438, as that seems like the driver that i think most closely matches what they are describing (or possibly one of the dtec pairs), but this is pure speculation. apparently the drivers initially have coupled contacts, so you have no choice but to use a single crossover for both, and i believe thats what they are talking about when they talk about uncoupling. they talk about the mid-bass driver having an internal chamber, but i think this just means that it doesnt have an external chamber and isnt vented. so, my guess is that to achieve the same things they are, the trick will be to vent one of a dual driver unit, and restrict that vented driver to solely sub-bass. allowing the mid-bass to display maximum speed, while having the slow rumble/decay of a vented driver in the sub-bass. obviously i dont have drivers on hand to test this, so its all speculation for now.


I don't know what other brands are doing in terms of electrical wiring so I won't be speculating on that
If I were to use RDI I could see an advantage of using single units of that driver in combination with some clever crossover. RDI is extremely loud to the point I find no use for it in IEMs because it overpowers everything. I think it's about 10dB louder than 38D1XJ. Now probably wiring each half separately could work. A half of the RDI should still be louder than whole 3800 hahaha


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## swtnate

talyak said:


> even if they get drivers customised from a manufacturer, they still need to get to that point via experimentation. sure 64 audio have an exclusive contract for the tia drivers, but first they found out what they wanted via modifying off the shelf drivers. there's no way we can achieve the quality assurance of mass produced drivers, but there is no reason we can't get say 90% of the performance by modifying off the shelf drivers in the same way.
> 
> their designs don't just appear from nowhere. and knowles/sonion arent about to do the research themselves then limit sales to a single brand. we can glean most of how they managed it via marketing materials. both subtonic and 64 audio have written and posted articles on how they achieve their performance. im just making plans to replicate what they said they did, and see if i can get similar results.


I dont disagree with any of that. Its a heck of a lot experimentation, testing, re-testing, etc.  and, anything with a 7-way crossover would raise my eyebrows on determining how they are defining that.  If you want big sub bass that is deep, full, and has tons of headroom with an immaculate rolloff, the Sonion 38 with acupass/ ferrofluid solves all of that.  Ive never been one to “experiment” by potentially damaging a fully functioning driver.  Sanding them, expanding back vents, etc. has always been chases down rabbit holes for me.  These drivers do amazing things and external dampers  its a huge part of the puzzle.  Why add all these components to a tight space?  Then you’ll start down the electronic phase correction, then acoustic phase correction, followed by polarity reversals, splitting drivers, big tube lengths, short tube lengths, resonators, and the list goes on and on. The lessons Ive learned starting into this from 0 knowledge to where I am now, build from what you know, grow from what youve learned, and establish your own design profile, develop a strategy to hit that, then build.  Theres a LOT of gamesmanship and marketing lingo thats customer facing but, the actual implementation plus being repeatable, is 💯 the key.  Im assuming though that no one would go through the gauntlet of product development and construction to only build it once…. Thats my two cents.  i would rather develop builds so people can hear how my brain defines a soundstage.


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## swtnate (Today at 5:17 PM)

talyak said:


> not to mention the fact that im not trying to replicate their designs 100% accurately. im not trying to make an off-brand u12t or storm. im not trying to have my iems sound the same as theirs. i have different design requirements and am just looking for the best ways to get the best possible performance within those requirements. part of the reason im doing this research is specifically because i cant just throw 12 ba drivers in an iem and call it a day. my design is limited to 4-6. plus i only need a couple of pairs of my end-game design to last me years. so if i can get something that sounds almost as good as a 64 audio iem in the highs and almost as good as a subtonic/symphonium iem in the lows, i don't mind if i end up killing a few drivers in the process of experimenting.


In that case, 6 drivers, 2 sound bores - 1 bore is 2.16mm the other 3ish mm - using a Sonion 3300, Twfk, and an SWFK.  Super thump, headroom for days, and a high end extension thats clear and present with distinct separation.  Message me and I will give you my 2nd to last beta design, as the final design is proprietary information.  You can tweak it how you want from there.  My strategy has always been to seek the proper drivers that compliment each other without stepping on each other.  Ive never once used a 1st order crossover in any of my wiring.  I will use, however, L-Pads and Zobels in conjunction with series resistors and capacitors. @piotrus-g comments saved my sinking ship(s) a couple of times. 😂😂 Im by no means an expert as there are others in this group with so much more build experience that I could never catch up to.  I have learned tons of lessons, had tons of failures, and chased  sound ideas only to have them crash and burn.  Im not by any means trying to discourage you or say your doing anything incorrect.  I just know from the 12 or so driver configurations I have designed, then re-designed, the re-imagined, that its very easy to invest so much of yourself into a project only to not attain what you wanted in the end.  Its deflating to lose all that time, investment in parts, machinery, documentation, etc. only for it to just be bland.


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## swtnate

Its also why I ate a gallon of BlueBlue Chocolate Chip Cookie Dough after hearing the sub response be strangled in the last 10 driver design.  I poured over that for months. 😂😂 I still have a little PTSD from the experience. 🤦🏻‍♂️🤦🏻‍♂️🤦🏻‍♂️


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## talyak

i dont think there is much need to be scared of crossovers when there are such useful tools available for designing them like xsim. and to be honest, they arent exactly complicated to get your head around if you have ever designed a circuit before. so even if i was going to use that 6 driver design, i probs would still give designing a crossover for them a go. plus if you dont have drivers uselessly producing sound in other drivers range, you are less likely to have phase cancellations. (not to mention that having an swfk and twfk im pretty sure would be too big for the completely in canal desing im working on)
eh, regardless, im not gonna restrict myself to easy when experimentation will allow for potentially much more interesting results.


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## talyak

worst case scenario, i waste a bit of money, and learn a lot about what you can and cant do with these drivers. better to test ideas and fail, than to never step out of your comfort zone and always be stuck in the realm of mediocre results


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## talyak

im working on this project because there is literally nothing on the market that matches my requirements. im not working on this project to build a knock-off dunu sa6 with worse electronics design lol


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## talyak

piotrus-g said:


> I don't know what other brands are doing in terms of electrical wiring so I won't be speculating on that
> If I were to use RDI I could see an advantage of using single units of that driver in combination with some clever crossover. RDI is extremely loud to the point I find no use for it in IEMs because it overpowers everything. I think it's about 10dB louder than 38D1XJ. Now probably wiring each half separately could work. A half of the RDI should still be louder than whole 3800 hahaha


that's good to know!
if i get a pair and attempt it, ill definitely post it here.


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