# New Power Cable to consider--IeGO Power Cable



## slwiser

Here is a link to a new cable that is just coming into production. Cost is 65$ or 95$ depending on which plug you get with a 1.5 meter length, US plugs only.

 Check it out.

IeGO Power Cable, now ready to ship!!! Check first post for info.

 Review:

Impressions of the new IeGO PC by a board member







 "What's more interesting is that the copper used is sourced from Furukawa (yes, that really expensive Furukawa), their 1020 Copper/Rose copper is rated at 4N purity. It is then alloyed with 0.1% of gold before it is made into wire (all the copper in the cabling have been alloyed with gold) and use OCC casting process with diamond drawing die to create it. The silver plated copper additionally receive between 120um to 240um of pure silver plating (plating thickness depends on wire gauge).

 It is then cryo processed in liquid nitrogen for 22 hours @ -240C/-400F to relieve all internal stress, and then bundled up to make the wire you see above."


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## HiGHFLYiN9

Those actually look like a very good value (aside from the slightly painful shipping cost). I didn't see it in the post, but do you happen to know what gauge the wires are?


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## Maniac

Hello, the cable is rated to take 15Amps at either 110V or 240V (or anything that's below 240V), as for the exact gauge, I'll need to check with the manufacturer to know for sure.


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## HiGHFLYiN9

Thanks Maniac, also check to see what the dielectric is if you can (ie: polyvinyl-chloride / polyethylene / teflon etc.)


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## vcoheda

looks interesting. here is the audiogon ad.

AudiogoN ForSale: Iego L70530 1.5M +8055CT


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## Maniac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HiGHFLYiN9* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks Maniac, also check to see what the dielectric is if you can (ie: polyvinyl-chloride / polyethylene / teflon etc.)_

 


 Actually it is a mixture of different dielectrics.

 The outer layer is high quality DuPont PVC, which is soft and easy to handle. the actual metal itself are insulated (some strand by strand) via a PVC jacket over each assembly, then some strands are insulated individually via teflon and voids in the braid are stuffed with cotten stuffings.

 If you take a look at the dissected view, you can see some strands' insulation are white with a bit of translucent feel. That's teflon, and the white strands of fabric are cotten.


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## Maniac

Here's some photos of the 8055CT connector and the whole cable. Better to show the copper and how flexible this cable is. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	











 click on photos for the really big ones, the item is actually quite clean, but the darn flash on the camera is picking up every little speck of dust.


 I've just taken these two photos and was about to use them for the auction page, but I guess I'm a bit worn out here and will leave that for later I guess. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





 Enjoy...


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## Ricey20

looks tempting


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## yotacowboy

Hey maniac, is the cable available by the foot with no connectors? I'd be interested in picking up about 3 or 4m.


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## Maniac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yotacowboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey maniac, is the cable available by the foot with no connectors? I'd be interested in picking up about 3 or 4m._

 

I'm sorry that we currently only have the pre-made ones, at the moment we are not setup to sell by cut-to-length method.


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## Audio-Omega

Yep it's suitable for 240v.


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## vcoheda

has anyone ordered yet?


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## BIG POPPA

What is the type B connector? IEC or what? Like to see a picture of the other side connection.


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## Maniac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *BIG POPPA* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What is the type B connector? IEC or what? Like to see a picture of the other side connection._

 






 That's the IEC end.

 For plug types:
Domestic AC power plugs and sockets - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 Wikipedia have some in depth info, basically an american style two prong (unearthed) plug is type A, if you add an earth pin, it is now called type B.


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## BIG POPPA

Come on now... Profiles are only good in mugshots. The plug is clear.


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## Maniac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *BIG POPPA* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Come on now... Profiles are only good in mugshots. The plug is clear._

 


 Well, I'll take some more photo of the IEC end later on, but you can check my ebay listing, which got photo aplenty there. However since I believe linking to ebay is prohibited in most forums, I'll leave it up to those would really want to see to search for it, should not be hard if you just plug in IeGO in the search entry.

 If you have a certain angle that you'd like to see, please let me know, I'll try to shoot it and post it when it is done.


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## Ricey20

what AWG is the cable?


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## slwiser

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Ricey20* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_what AWG is the cable?_

 

I don't know but that power amp in the review has to be much harder on the cable and any headphone amp for a load and it came out in the review as having no issues with suppling it's power.


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## Maniac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Ricey20* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_what AWG is the cable?_

 

Hello, I've just checked with the manufacturer, they said that the combined conductive material of each power strand (either hot or netural) is appox equal to a 2.2mm^2 cross section copper. Pop that into conversion table and the result is appox 13.8 AWG (let's just call it 14AWG), thus hot and neutral each is slightly better to a 14AWG copper cable in current carrying capacity due to the silver content providing better conductivity.

 As for ground, it is 1.25mm^2, which is almost 16AWG (1.31mm^2)

 Thanks.


 PS: originally I misread the manufacturer's spec, and stated 12AWG, it is now corrected. Sorry.


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## Maniac

I just peeled one open to show you guys some more details of IeGO's 8055CT connector. Click on image for super huge ones.




 8055CT, awaiting open heart surgery.





 Pure copper pin close up with IeGO logo.





 Live & Neutral wires, and the IeGO logo on the copper inside the clear polycarbonate (some refer to them as lexan) housing.





 Ground Wire





 The outer housing that is supposed to cover all the contact and electrical joints after assembly, for your viewing pleasure.


 Let me know what else you guys'd like to see. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





 Just got a second hand Canon 350D and the kit lens to replace my original camera (lost)... Man, the shots are so much easier to make, and the color purity is so much better than the prosumer cameras. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Photo of IEC end will come shortly


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## Maniac

For those who want to see the details of 8085CT (Gold plated pure copper), here's some I just shot a few hours ago. I was at IeGO's repair shop where they actually have all the parts that makes up their 80x5CT series product and some rather interesting new cables.

 It is IMHO a rare view of what goes inside of an audio grade (or hospital grade for that matter) IEC and Type B connector.


 American Type B pins





 IEC female Pins





 Got Gold? (Click and see)




 We use these pure copper locking rings to lock wires in place, not aluminum. (color's a bit washed due to lighting condition, but they are rendered more accurately in the next photo.)





 Copper locking rings installed into the American Type B plug. (click and see)




 IEC female plug, exposed.





 8085CT on L80229... Yes, a different and higher end cable. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Will be testing them and see tomorrow.






 Enjoy.


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## BIG POPPA

Cool pix, no mugshot


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## vcoheda

has anyone tried one of these?


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## mrarroyo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *vcoheda* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_has anyone tried one of these?_

 

I believe slwiser has!


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## slwiser

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mrarroyo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I believe slwiser has! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Not the cable that has the full silver plugs with Rhodium coating. I also think the cable is being upgraded as well and will come in at a mid 200s$ instead of the much more reasonable cost of the ones that I have. I thought that was the context of the question.

 I have the regular cable with Silver coated plugs and I really, really like them. The equipment plug is as tight as everyone says but it can be push in with some effort. I would put them at least as good as the VD P3 or P1 cables that I have if not better.


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## vcoheda

hmmm.

 i may be in the market for a power cable. using stock isn't any fun.

 "Copper+Heavy Silver plating: (Call this 8065CT if you prefer to use code)
 1.5m/5ft = USD $95"

 what's 200 dollars?


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## Maniac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *vcoheda* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_hmmm.

 i may be in the market for a power cable. using stock isn't any fun.

 "Copper+Heavy Silver plating: (Call this 8065CT if you prefer to use code)
 1.5m/5ft = USD $95"

 what's 200 dollars?_

 


 For stuff in the 200ish range, it would be either with the newer L80229 cable, or with 8095CT pure silver/Rhodium plate connectors (or both, but that 'll be a bit closer to the 300ish IMHO).


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## dan_can

any detailed info on L80229?


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## Maniac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dan_can* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_any detailed info on L80229?_

 

I've just gotten a sample of L80229 + 8085CT (pure copper/gold plate connector), and it appears to be quite good right out the box already. With 12 hours of run-in time it is visibly better than both of our current stock copper and silver plate version of the cable already.


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## velogreg

I ordered my cables Saturday, they shipped Monday and arrived Wednesday (yesterday). Taiwan to Southern California in three days, that is faster delivery than I receive with most California and Arizona vendors. 

 Thanks David, the power cable fit and finish is very high quality and looks every bit as good as the pictures posted. I will hook them up to my tube amps this weekend and hopefully they will sound as good as expected.


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## Maniac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *velogreg* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I ordered my cables Saturday, they shipped Monday and arrived Wednesday (yesterday). Taiwan to Southern California in three days, that is faster delivery than I receive with most California and Arizona vendors. 

 Thanks David, the power cable fit and finish is very high quality and looks every bit as good as the pictures posted. I will hook them up to my tube amps this weekend and hopefully they will sound as good as expected._

 

I have just posted some updated info on L80229 on Audiocircle's Industry ads, I feel it might not be all that suitable to post it here. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Industry ads
 Look for IeGO's mid range power cable.


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## nick20

Maniac, can you please delete a few messages so I can get in contact with you. 



 Thanks!


 -Nick


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## Maniac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nick20* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Maniac, can you please delete a few messages so I can get in contact with you. 
_

 

Done, thanks for the reminder.


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## nick20

PM sent.


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## ecclesand

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *velogreg* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I ordered my cables Saturday, they shipped Monday and arrived Wednesday (yesterday). Taiwan to Southern California in three days, that is faster delivery than I receive with most California and Arizona vendors. 

 Thanks David, the power cable fit and finish is very high quality and looks every bit as good as the pictures posted. I will hook them up to my tube amps this weekend and hopefully they will sound as good as expected._

 

Any impressions yet, velogreg? I've been watching these IEGO threads closely as I'm interested in upgrading my IronLung Jellyfish PCs.


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## Maniac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ecclesand* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Any impressions yet, velogreg? I've been watching these IEGO threads closely as I'm interested in upgrading my IronLung Jellyfish PCs._

 

Have you checked out Jon's thread lately? he had a review of all the IeGO's cables


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## mojo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *slwiser* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Check it out._

 

At least it's not garden hose I guess 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


 "What's more interesting is that the copper used is sourced from Furukawa (yes, that really expensive Furukawa), their 1020 Copper/Rose copper is rated at 4N purity. It is then alloyed with 0.1% of gold before it is made into wire (all the copper in the cabling have been alloyed with gold) and use OCC casting process with diamond drawing die to create it. The silver plated copper additionally receive between 120um to 240um of pure silver plating (plating thickness depends on wire gauge). 
 

And how exactly does that help? I mean, isn't the goal with power to eliminate noise as much as possible, rather than selecting wire that transmits it especially well?

 I would have thought the shielding would have been more important.

 Also, presumably this cable is useless unless paired with a mains conditioner, since otherwise it's just the last 1m on the end of 1000s of meters of the cheapest copper cable available? Or am I missing something?

  Quote:


 It is then cryo processed in liquid nitrogen for 22 hours @ -240C/-400F to relieve all internal stress, and then bundled up to make the wire you see above." 
 

Doesn't freezing things to make them solid and hard increase stress? Especially since they tend to shrink when frozen and then expand again when warmed up. Surely a better way to relieve "internal" stress would be to massage the cable to allow all parts to settle in the most natural stress free position?

 BTW, what does stress have to do with electrical conductivity of audio signals?


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## Know Talent

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mojo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_At least it's not garden hose I guess 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






 And how exactly does that help? I mean, isn't the goal with power to eliminate noise as much as possible, rather than selecting wire that transmits it especially well?

 I would have thought the shielding would have been more important.

 Also, presumably this cable is useless unless paired with a mains conditioner, since otherwise it's just the last 1m on the end of 1000s of meters of the cheapest copper cable available? Or am I missing something?



 Doesn't freezing things to make them solid and hard increase stress? Especially since they tend to shrink when frozen and then expand again when warmed up. Surely a better way to relieve "internal" stress would be to massage the cable to allow all parts to settle in the most natural stress free position?

 BTW, what does stress have to do with electrical conductivity of audio signals?_

 


 but dude.... it's FURUKAWA super-duper 4 nines copper, 
 This isn't some cheapo 4 nines copper from boiled down circuit boards and scrap cable...In fact, I wouldn't be surprized if it's extracted from meteorites!!!

 The only thing I want to know is does the REFERENCE model come with an authentic Furukawa copper foil hat?


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## Maniac

mojo, where did you get the idea that the goal of power cable is to eliminate noise? The primary goal is to deliver power with as little restriction as possible, and then the noise part comes after that.

 As for shielding, please note that in the cut-away photos of both cable clearly shows copper foil shielding for maximum shield coverage.

 And where did you get the idea that it is useless unless it is paired with a mains conditioner? It works fine as is, and it is mutually beneficial if you pair them up, but it is definitely not required for the cable to work its magic.


 As for Cryo processing, it is being used in MANY other applications other than conductors in cables, it is also used in industrial applications like casting dies, high speed cutting tools (yes, and people used that on their pocket knife too) and more. It is a proven process to improve many aspects of performance of metal (possibly other materials, but that I'm not sure), I suggest a search on Google and Wikipedia for the science behind the process.


 Here's one link that I found a few minutes ago:
Cryogenics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Maniac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Know Talent* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_but dude.... it's FURUKAWA super-duper 4 nines copper, 
 This isn't some cheapo 4 nines copper from boiled down circuit boards and scrap cable...In fact, I wouldn't be surprized if it's extracted from meteorites!!!

 The only thing I want to know is does the REFERENCE model come with an authentic Furukawa copper foil hat?_

 

Would you like to return to discussion or would you like to provide some factual information on what you have said above?


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## Know Talent

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Maniac* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Would you like to return to discussion or would you like to provide some factual information on what you have said above?_

 

You want me to provide factual information?
 Hey, I'm not the one trying to sell bs cable marketing crapola thru "snake waving" pseudo-science.

 You can't even explain the science behind how cryogenic treatment affects metallugical grain patterns without refering to wikipedia...

 maybe you can provide us with a link to how "relaxed/aligned" grain patterns in copper relate to enhanced electron transferance across valance shells?

 My guess is you're a/another cable peddl'n shill...


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## Maniac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Know Talent* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You want me to provide factual information?
 Hey, I'm not the one trying to sell bs cable marketing crapola thru "snake waving" pseudo-science.

 You can't even explain the science behind how cryogenic treatment affects metallugical grain patterns without refering to wikipedia...

 maybe you can provide us with a link to how "relaxed/aligned" grain patterns in copper relate to enhanced electron transferance across valance shells?

 My guess is you're a/another cable peddl'n shill..._

 

Well, the first time you have entered the discussion is full of sarcasm, if you are so into anti-cable discussions, why don't you start a thread on that and leave other people's thread alone? This thread is more or less for discussion on the effect of the cable on your equipments, not how exactly the cable is made. The information is provided for those who are genuinely interested in knowing what goes into the cable. If you doubt if the said process is ever applied to the cable, I welcome any information on that, as that would mean my supplier is BSing me.

 So far, you have provided nothing but sarcasm...


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## Know Talent

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Maniac* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, the first time you have entered the discussion is full of sarcasm, if you are so into anti-cable discussions, why don't you start a thread on that and leave other people's thread alone? This thread is more or less for discussion on the effect of the cable on your equipments, not how exactly the cable is made. The information is provided for those who are genuinely interested in knowing what goes into the cable. If you doubt if the said process is ever applied to the cable, I welcome any information on that, as that would mean my supplier is BSing me.

 So far, you have provided nothing but sarcasm..._

 

OK, no more sarcasm...

 How does "cryogenic treatment" affect grain boundaries in a way that translates to lower resistance and does it alter capacitive and/or inductive properties?

 Is this reduction in resistance, vs. a non-cryogenically treated Furukawa... measureable across a 6 ft length of cable and does the manufacturer have any third party test data to confirm this?

 Does the difference relieve/reduce any "current compression" given real world power supply demands?

 No more sarcasm, just honest questions from an inquisitive audio enthusiast...


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## mojo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Maniac* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_mojo, where did you get the idea that the goal of power cable is to eliminate noise? The primary goal is to deliver power with as little restriction as possible, and then the noise part comes after that._

 

You misunderstand me. I don't mean the power cable is supposed to filter noise, I mean that the power supply system for a component in general is. You want as clean a DC supply voltage as possible.

 That's why I don't get the point of using materials that transmit noise better. Mains 50/60GHz 230/120V "signal" is so large and strong and ideally smooth it makes no sense to use material that is designed to preserve small details in the signal, even if it comes from a power conditioner.

  Quote:


 As for shielding, please note that in the cut-away photos of both cable clearly shows copper foil shielding for maximum shield coverage. 
 

Yeah, I know, it's just that the blurb didn't seem to make much of that, it was talking mostly about the wire.

  Quote:


 And where did you get the idea that it is useless unless it is paired with a mains conditioner? It works fine as is, and it is mutually beneficial if you pair them up, but it is definitely not required for the cable to work its magic. 
 

Magic? That's what I mean, what exactly does it do? If the copper wire reduces loss and preserves detail better, then clearly it's fairly pointless using it with ordinary noisy mains since if anything it will just be preserving the noise.

  Quote:


 As for Cryo processing, it is being used in MANY other applications other than conductors in cables, it is also used in industrial applications like casting dies, high speed cutting tools (yes, and people used that on their pocket knife too) and more. It is a proven process to improve many aspects of performance of metal (possibly other materials, but that I'm not sure), I suggest a search on Google and Wikipedia for the science behind the process.

Cryogenics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 
 

Did you read the Wikipedia article? You will notice that it is generally used for producing harder and more durable metals. The blurb talks about "relaxing" flexible copper wire. Making the wire harder would not relax it nor improve it's ability to withstand being flexed.


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## mojo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Maniac* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This thread is more or less for discussion on the effect of the cable on your equipments, not how exactly the cable is made._

 

I think after this debacle, people are interested in how expensive products are made and about the claims manufacturers make of them:

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f21/my...er-3-a-293165/

 In particular, I would like to understand exactly what you are trying to do with the design of this cable, and why you think it will affect sound quality. I'm not lucky enough to have money to burn on one so I can't really comment on it's relative SQ, and since double blind testing is banned here...


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## Know Talent

You can use the word magic when seasoning impressions of sonic characteristics such as...

 "Miles horn solo magically appeared in the listening room"

 You cannot use the word magic to avoid explaining scientific principles or engineering implementation.

 The new $150MM bridge is suspended by "MAGIC"...
 (see, it just doesn't work IMO)


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## whaleyboy

Jumpping into this thread because I just put a IeGO cable into my system and believe that it has made a positive change.

 It seems to me that there is more detail in the reproduction, better sound staging and more "space". 

 It is early days for the new cable (just a few hours on it) but I am pleased so far.

 Sorry to jump in the middle of a discussion of magic or whatever but so far I am pleased with the change to my system and hope that impression can be useful to others considering these cables.


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## Maniac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Know Talent* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_OK, no more sarcasm...

 How does "cryogenic treatment" affect grain boundaries in a way that translates to lower resistance and does it alter capacitive and/or inductive properties?

 Is this reduction in resistance, vs. a non-cryogenically treated Furukawa... measureable across a 6 ft length of cable and does the manufacturer have any third party test data to confirm this?

 Does the difference relieve/reduce any "current compression" given real world power supply demands?

 No more sarcasm, just honest questions from an inquisitive audio enthusiast..._

 

Well, like I previously said in my message, the information is easily available if you just google a little bit.

Science

 This is one link I had found, again in only a few seconds by just entering "Copper Cryogenic Treatment"

 You can easily find more by searching the exact term that I had just searched.

 As for resistance and those other possible changes, let's just put it this way, the original resistance of copper is already so low that it is impossible to use a easily available multi-meter to measure any change of resistance in cable length that is representative of what is usually used in homes.

 Just try accurately measure a 0.5 ohm resistor with a sub $100 USD meter, it's not going to work, and it will just be even harder if you try to measure a cable with much, much lower resistance than that.


 Again, what do you really want? Better sound? or better specs? So far the comment that I've heard are all quite positive regarding IeGO cables, both in terms of performance and value. It easily outperforms cables of similar price range, and it will easily cost much more than what I charge if you wants to build the cable yourself.


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## Maniac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mojo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think after this debacle, people are interested in how expensive products are made and about the claims manufacturers make of them:

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f21/my...er-3-a-293165/

 In particular, I would like to understand exactly what you are trying to do with the design of this cable, and why you think it will affect sound quality. I'm not lucky enough to have money to burn on one so I can't really comment on it's relative SQ, and since double blind testing is banned here..._

 

Well, I did not design the cable and I can't tell you exactly what went through the mind of the designer when they are working on the cable. But I do know the designer and I believe that he is quite good at cable designs.

 What I'm assured is that the cable is going to be well made with sonic signature that is mostly balanced and neutral, plus a bit of coloring and "flavors" to add to the fun. Higher end models that further improve on virtually all aspects of performance and stay on the neutral and balanced trail.

 Which is pretty much what I hear from the five different cables that I have here. And I'm into the cable business only after I have purchased 2 IeGO's entry level L70530+unplated connector via retail channel. I have to say that I was impressed with the performance, especially when considering the price of the cable.



 As for other manufacturer's product, I feel it would not be wise or prudent for me to comment of their product.


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## Maniac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mojo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You misunderstand me. I don't mean the power cable is supposed to filter noise, I mean that the power supply system for a component in general is. You want as clean a DC supply voltage as possible.

 That's why I don't get the point of using materials that transmit noise better. Mains 50/60GHz 230/120V "signal" is so large and strong and ideally smooth it makes no sense to use material that is designed to preserve small details in the signal, even if it comes from a power conditioner.



 Yeah, I know, it's just that the blurb didn't seem to make much of that, it was talking mostly about the wire.



 Magic? That's what I mean, what exactly does it do? If the copper wire reduces loss and preserves detail better, then clearly it's fairly pointless using it with ordinary noisy mains since if anything it will just be preserving the noise.



 Did you read the Wikipedia article? You will notice that it is generally used for producing harder and more durable metals. The blurb talks about "relaxing" flexible copper wire. Making the wire harder would not relax it nor improve it's ability to withstand being flexed._

 

Well, it may not make sense to you, but AC power kinda works in strange ways. You can cover the entire cable with RFI chokes that blocks everything above 60Hz and the works, and likely you will hear the detail muffled and muted highs.


 To me, what I really focus on is not exactly the science behind the cable, but those specs are only used as "indicator" of how the cable may perform. As what we would want is something that makes our stereo work better, and as I believe you know, there are a lot of stuff in stereo that measures well but does not sound good at all.


 As for the magic part, what I can say is stick a good cable into your system and find out. That's what I did when I couldn't understand why it would work the way that the cable manufacturer had claimed. Thankfully it worked as the cable manufacturer had claimed, and I'm still not quite sure about the science behind it.


 As for the Wikipedia articles, like I said, it was found with very little effort, if you are into the science behind it, please search a bit on Wikipedia and Google, there's more info than you can shake a stick at.


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## mojo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Maniac* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, like I previously said in my message, the information is easily available if you just google a little bit.

Science_

 

That company does cryogenic treatment, so they are a somewhat unreliable source.

  Quote:


 Again, what do you really want? Better sound? or better specs? 
 

Again, you mis-understand me I think. I don't care about the specs, I care about how/if it works. I would like better sound, but until someone does a double blind test or loans me one I can't see any reason to think that there is better sound.

 Also, if the how and why don't matter, why even try to explain how this thing works? If you use it in marketing, you must expect people to cast a critical eye over it.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Maniac* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What I'm assured is that the cable is going to be well made with sonic signature that is mostly balanced and neutral, plus a bit of coloring and "flavors" to add to the fun. Higher end models that further improve on virtually all aspects of performance and stay on the neutral and balanced trail._

 

One thing I find interesting is that all high end audio manufacturers claim that their high end products are better than the ones lower down in the range, and that they cost more to produce.

 That doesn't make much sense to me. Why are more expensive materials always better? It's a how in blind tests often the cheaper cosmetics out perform the super expensive ones with all the pseudo-science behind them.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Maniac* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, it may not make sense to you, but AC power kinda works in strange ways. You can cover the entire cable with RFI chokes that blocks everything above 60Hz and the works, and likely you will hear the detail muffled and muted highs._

 

That makes no sense at all. The only possible explanation is that the amp/source you are using has a rubbish power supply section and the noise from the mains was getting into the audio, causing you to hear extra "detail" which is actually just distortion.

 Maybe it's like some kind of bizarre dithering effect? In which case you might as well use a cheap power cable.

  Quote:


 To me, what I really focus on is not exactly the science behind the cable, but those specs are only used as "indicator" of how the cable may perform. As what we would want is something that makes our stereo work better, and as I believe you know, there are a lot of stuff in stereo that measures well but does not sound good at all. 
 

At least we can usually say why something makes a noticeable difference to sound though. I'm just trying to understand how this cable has any effect on the power that could affect sound. I mean, you wouldn't pay a lot extra for a car with "go faster" stripes, just because the salesman told you they magically made the car faster, would you?


----------



## Maniac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mojo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That company does cryogenic treatment, so they are a somewhat unreliable source._

 

Thus I said, if you are really interested, it would be reasonable for you to search/google around a bit for more info. If you don't want to do that, then that means you are not really interested in that subject at all.

  Quote:


 Again, you mis-understand me I think. I don't care about the specs, I care about how/if it works. I would like better sound, but until someone does a double blind test or loans me one I can't see any reason to think that there is better sound.

 Also, if the how and why don't matter, why even try to explain how this thing works? If you use it in marketing, you must expect people to cast a critical eye over it. 
 

Simple, because that would turn a simple ad and light discussion into heavy textbook stuff, like I said, if you really want to know the deep down stuff, I can give you pointers. If I don't have more info, I can ask for some pointers for you even. However, I nor anyone else I believe would really want to turn a thread here into some text book stuff that 99.99% of people won't bother read or try to understand.


  Quote:


 One thing I find interesting is that all high end audio manufacturers claim that their high end products are better than the ones lower down in the range, and that they cost more to produce.

 That doesn't make much sense to me. Why are more expensive materials always better? It's a how in blind tests often the cheaper cosmetics out perform the super expensive ones with all the pseudo-science behind them. 
 

It makes PERFECT sense, if you ever had a hand in manufacturing, you will know that the factory and designer strive for the balance of lowest cost and best performance. There is NO holy grail of highest performance at the absolutely lowest cost, but more of a balance of the two, higher performance at higher cost, or acceptable performance at lower cost.

 You may wonder about the choices where it costs higher but does not provide performance increase or actually lowers the performance. Well, it is simple, factory and the designer would have removed those options from the available choices. It does not serve them any good to make it worse and make it costs more. Capitalism at its best, really.


  Quote:


 That makes no sense at all. The only possible explanation is that the amp/source you are using has a rubbish power supply section and the noise from the mains was getting into the audio, causing you to hear extra "detail" which is actually just distortion.

 Maybe it's like some kind of bizarre dithering effect? In which case you might as well use a cheap power cable. 
 

Well then if theory doesn't work, then maybe you should seriously give some cables a try at your home. I'm sure you can find some Head-Fiers or other audiophile buff, or some really nice stores that are willing to loan you a cable to try it out.

 And as interesting as it may be, I'd say 2/3 of the time, the more expensive the equipments, the more improvements you get out of the cables. I don't think those expensive equipments lacks any filtering or regulating circuits at all.

  Quote:


 At least we can usually say why something makes a noticeable difference to sound though. I'm just trying to understand how this cable has any effect on the power that could affect sound. I mean, you wouldn't pay a lot extra for a car with "go faster" stripes, just because the salesman told you they magically made the car faster, would you? 
 

Yes, but lots of people paid big money for optimized fuel injection mapping, spark advance mapping and optimized cam shaft profiles that get them the performance and efficiency boost that they want. All in a black box more or less, so you mean those don't work either?


----------



## royalcrown

Uh, I'm not sure why you referenced capitalism at its best, because if that's how you believe market forces work you have a flawed understanding of economics. There are plenty of times where manufacturers, in the cable world and in other industries, will make a product that's more expensive and provides poorer performance. Pick up any old Consumer Reports and you'll likely find the higher-priced models from a given manufacturer scoring much worse than a cheaper model. The reason they do this is because they can make a larger profit, because they end up on a more advantageous supply/demand curve. I could get into the calculus of it (still a bit shaky on it, but I still know the rudiments of marginal cost of substitution), but the intuition behind it is pretty clear. 

 Also, for the sake of everyone please stop comparing audio components to cars! Think of the children! In all seriousness, they're horrible comparisons, because in the racing world everyone stakes performance on one thing - speed. Speed is objective, measurable, and uncontested as the measure of performance for a car (if we're talking about racing, which seems to be the case). However, "performance," in an audio system is a completely different animal - there are plenty of instruments that can detect change, but plenty of people contest that and only look to what is audible. Whether or not this is sound is another debate entirely, but it's pretty clear that there's a big difference between automobiles and audio components. This is just one difference between cars and audio, mind you. There's also the competitiveness involved, and the ease in noticing performance changes (oh look - he passed the finish line first!). There's no difference in perception in these cases.

 Man, cars get used in every single internet debate. Macs vs PC, atheism vs. theism... you name it, somebody brought up an analogy to cars.

 To rephrase it as cleanly as possible (relying less on the actual "car" content of the analogy), what if the racing stripes made the car feel faster, even though the laser told you the car was traveling at the same speed. Would you still buy it? (I hope this captures the intent of the original comparison)


----------



## Terminus Est 23

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Maniac* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, it may not make sense to you, but AC power kinda works in strange ways. You can cover the entire cable with RFI chokes that blocks everything above 60Hz and the works, and likely you will hear the detail muffled and muted highs.


 To me, what I really focus on is not exactly the science behind the cable, but those specs are only used as "indicator" of how the cable may perform. As what we would want is something that makes our stereo work better, and as I believe you know, there are a lot of stuff in stereo that measures well but does not sound good at all.


 As for the magic part, what I can say is stick a good cable into your system and find out. That's what I did when I couldn't understand why it would work the way that the cable manufacturer had claimed. Thankfully it worked as the cable manufacturer had claimed, and I'm still not quite sure about the science behind it.


 As for the Wikipedia articles, like I said, it was found with very little effort, if you are into the science behind it, please search a bit on Wikipedia and Google, there's more info than you can shake a stick at._

 

I'm getting into the cable making business.


----------



## mojo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Maniac* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thus I said, if you are really interested, it would be reasonable for you to search/google around a bit for more info. If you don't want to do that, then that means you are not really interested in that subject at all._

 

I did search Google and as far as I can tell (with FE level of physics) there is no reason to think it would help in this application.

  Quote:


 if you really want to know the deep down stuff, I can give you pointers. 
 

That's what I've been asking for all along.

  Quote:


 However, I nor anyone else I believe would really want to turn a thread here into some text book stuff that 99.99% of people won't bother read or try to understand. 
 

Well it might be interesting to them if you can convince people who do understand it that you didn't just invent some techno-babble. This isn't Star Trek.

  Quote:


 It makes PERFECT sense, if you ever had a hand in manufacturing, you will know that the factory and designer strive for the balance of lowest cost and best performance. 
 

My point was though that why must there necessarily be a balance like that? Sometimes the cheap stuff performs better than more expensive materials. Silver cutlery for example - cheaper than gold but gold is too soft and would wear out.

 To give you another example, you can buy generic medication. It works just as well as the branded stuff, because in fact it is the same as the branded stuff. The branded meds that cost 10x more are total snake oil, a complete rip-off. Idiots buy them of course, but we are trying to avoid being idiots here.

 Sure, some times we pay extra for stuff that is no better than the cheaper version, for fashion reasons. A £5 t-shirt is as effective at clothing you as a £50 one, but sometimes people pay more because the expensive one looks nice. The same happens in audio - high end gear comes in nicer enclosures and that is factored into the price. Presumably you are not selling this cable based on looks though.

  Quote:


 And as interesting as it may be, I'd say 2/3 of the time, the more expensive the equipments, the more improvements you get out of the cables. I don't think those expensive equipments lacks any filtering or regulating circuits at all. 
 

Care to explain how the cable improves the sound then?

  Quote:


 Yes, but lots of people paid big money for optimized fuel injection mapping, spark advance mapping and optimized cam shaft profiles that get them the performance and efficiency boost that they want. All in a black box more or less, so you mean those don't work either? 
 

I don't know, has anyone raced a modified and stock care to find out? I'd be surprised if there were not measurements to back those things up, since car enthusiasts love to measure power output and 0-60 times when tweaking. That's how they know their tweaks are working.


----------



## Terminus Est 23

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *royalcrown* 
_Also, for the sake of everyone please stop comparing audio components to cars! Think of the children! In all seriousness, they're horrible comparisons, because in the racing world everyone stakes performance on one thing - speed. Speed is objective, measurable. . ._

 

But when I put cat piss in my gas tank, my car FEELS faster to me . . . and that's what it's all about, how fast my car feels to ME.


----------



## Maniac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *royalcrown* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Uh, I'm not sure why you referenced capitalism at its best, because if that's how you believe market forces work you have a flawed understanding of economics. There are plenty of times where manufacturers, in the cable world and in other industries, will make a product that's more expensive and provides poorer performance. Pick up any old Consumer Reports and you'll likely find the higher-priced models from a given manufacturer scoring much worse than a cheaper model. The reason they do this is because they can make a larger profit, because they end up on a more advantageous supply/demand curve. I could get into the calculus of it (still a bit shaky on it, but I still know the rudiments of marginal cost of substitution), but the intuition behind it is pretty clear. _

 

I guess I didn't make it clear enough, I didn't put marketing into the picture as from purely the POV of manufacturing and design, there is no point making a more expensive product that performs worse, unless someone really want to trash that company's bottom line.

  Quote:


 Also, for the sake of everyone please stop comparing audio components to cars! Think of the children! In all seriousness, they're horrible comparisons, because in the racing world everyone stakes performance on one thing - speed. Speed is objective, measurable, and uncontested as the measure of performance for a car (if we're talking about racing, which seems to be the case). However, "performance," in an audio system is a completely different animal - there are plenty of instruments that can detect change, but plenty of people contest that and only look to what is audible. Whether or not this is sound is another debate entirely, but it's pretty clear that there's a big difference between automobiles and audio components. This is just one difference between cars and audio, mind you. There's also the competitiveness involved, and the ease in noticing performance changes (oh look - he passed the finish line first!). There's no difference in perception in these cases.

 Man, cars get used in every single internet debate. Macs vs PC, atheism vs. theism... you name it, somebody brought up an analogy to cars.

 To rephrase it as cleanly as possible (relying less on the actual "car" content of the analogy), what if the racing stripes made the car feel faster, even though the laser told you the car was traveling at the same speed. Would you still buy it? (I hope this captures the intent of the original comparison) 
 

Well, racing stripes would be like the labels on the cable, they do nothing other than add a little bit of weight and trying to make the thing look better. As for the comparison to the car, I'd prefer a different comparison if I may.

 Let's say there are two seat options, both weight the same, one costs less and felt like barbed wire fence, and one holds the driver in good comfort and does not impede his control of the car but costs a lot more.

 Laser will say both goes just as fast in drag strips, but I think you know the rest when the car start to put a little G forces on the driver.


----------



## Maniac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mojo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I did search Google and as far as I can tell (with FE level of physics) there is no reason to think it would help in this application.



 That's what I've been asking for all along.



 Well it might be interesting to them if you can convince people who do understand it that you didn't just invent some techno-babble. This isn't Star Trek.



 My point was though that why must there necessarily be a balance like that? Sometimes the cheap stuff performs better than more expensive materials. Silver cutlery for example - cheaper than gold but gold is too soft and would wear out.

 To give you another example, you can buy generic medication. It works just as well as the branded stuff, because in fact it is the same as the branded stuff. The branded meds that cost 10x more are total snake oil, a complete rip-off. Idiots buy them of course, but we are trying to avoid being idiots here.

 Sure, some times we pay extra for stuff that is no better than the cheaper version, for fashion reasons. A £5 t-shirt is as effective at clothing you as a £50 one, but sometimes people pay more because the expensive one looks nice. The same happens in audio - high end gear comes in nicer enclosures and that is factored into the price. Presumably you are not selling this cable based on looks though.



 Care to explain how the cable improves the sound then?



 I don't know, has anyone raced a modified and stock care to find out? I'd be surprised if there were not measurements to back those things up, since car enthusiasts love to measure power output and 0-60 times when tweaking. That's how they know their tweaks are working._

 

Have you actually tried any of them?

 The cables, the cryo processed cables and the cars? I don't think any amount of theory will satisfy you at all, is it really that hard to try some cable out? I don't speak techno-babble, if you don't intend to understand, I can't help you either. I wrote the English version of the spec with the intent that it will be as accurate as I can make it. With none of those funny acronyms, invented names and stuff, if you try that hard not to get it, I'm not sure any more info from me would have helped.

 If you think copper that is alloyed with silver and gold is just like any generic copper, well, I can't help you either.

 As for silverwares, ultra-pure silver is very soft too... the silver you often see are alloyed with a lot of copper or other metals to make it hard. Thus Sterling silver is only 92.5% pure.


----------



## Terminus Est 23

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Maniac* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Let's say there are two seat options, both weight the same, one costs less and felt like barbed wire fence, and one holds the driver in good comfort and does not impede his control of the car but costs a lot more.

 Laser will say both goes just as fast in drag strips, but I think you know the rest when the car start to put a little G forces on the driver._

 

So you really are pushing these products because of aesthetics, not performance?

 That's precisely what your analogy means. . . it performs exactly the same but one is more uncomfortable.


----------



## Maniac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Terminus Est 23* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So you really are pushing these products because of aesthetics, not performance?

 That's precisely what your analogy means. . . it performs exactly the same but one is more uncomfortable._

 


 Well, I think you missed the point completely. The road is never straight all the time, and it is proven that a properly designed seat does help the driver corner faster and stay focused longer. Who said a seat wouldn't actually help performance?


 If you do not feel IeGO's cable being any good, by all means don't get it. I have performed many test of the cable on my system, before I even start writing the description of the cable. Including the Head-Fi forbidden tests too; believe it or not, I would not be stocking those cables myself if I cannot hear some improvements on my system.


----------



## Terminus Est 23

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Maniac* 
_Well, I think you missed the point completely._

 

No, you made your point poorly.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Maniac* 
_If you do not feel IeGO's cable being any good, by all means don't get it._

 

I'd just love to hear some actual responses to the questions that have been asked, instead of defaulting to "I don't want to get into the tech talk and bore everyone" or some useless car analogy.

 There's thousands of people, if not tens of thousands, that will flatly tell you that wearing magnets has helped their joint problems. They 100% believe it.


----------



## Maniac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Terminus Est 23* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No, you made your point poorly._

 

actually, you missed the line below completely, even tho you have quoted it.

 Laser will say both goes just as fast in drag strips, but I think you know the rest when the car start to put a little G forces on the driver.

 G forces, see...

  Quote:


 I'd just love to hear some actual responses to the questions that have been asked, instead of defaulting to "I don't want to get into the tech talk and bore everyone" or some useless car analogy.

 There's thousands of people, if not tens of thousands, that will flatly tell you that wearing magnets has helped their joint problems. They 100% believe it. 
 

The information is provided, like I said, if you do not wish to dig deeper and find out the details, I can't help you either. Unlike magnet sticker, it is a lot easier to test power cables or other cables on stereo systems.


----------



## Terminus Est 23

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Maniac* 
_The information is provided, like I said, if you do not wish to dig deeper and find out the details, I can't help you either._

 

No. You have not responded to many, many questions. Instead you've said that you do not wish to fill the thread with boring tech-talk, made poor analogies to cars and I forgot, you've also repeated that the info is there but you can't help us if we won't look at it ourselves. Meanwhile, you've answered none of the questions being presented to you.

 If you are unable too, that's fine - just say it.


----------



## Know Talent

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Maniac* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 ....it's a lot easier to test power cables or other cables on stereo systems._

 

Send me your most expensive cord, I'll grab a random neighbor in my apt complex and A/B it against a parasound then have him/her tell me which produces "better" sonics.... I'll send you back the winning cord within thirty days.


----------



## sbulack

For those who have bought and auditioned an Iego PC, can you share you listening experiences using it and/or compare with those using other PCs you've used? I'm interested in this PC and would appreciate your impressions of what you've heard using it.


----------



## TheMarchingMule

If you search around Head-Fi, there are at least two more members who give in-depth reviews of all of IeGO's power cables.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sbulack* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_For those who have bought and auditioned an Iego PC, can you share you listening experiences using it and/or compare with those using other PCs you've used? I'm interested in this PC and would appreciate your impressions of what you've heard using it._


----------



## Audio-Omega

I bought one a few months ago, it appeared to be well made. But I wasn't concerned about how it sound compare to my other cable because I was only interested in the sound of the new amp.


----------



## TheMarchingMule

In a few hours, I'm going to order one, although which of the two "bottom" models I am not sure of yet. The reasons why I'm buying one are:
I want to say I've had first-experience towards this whole "do they make a difference in sound or not" debate, instead of just being a spectator
It will be a night-and-day quality difference from this old crappy thin black computer cable I found in my garage
[Oops, Maniac was kind enough to inform me that silver will tarnish faster than copper (duh!), not the other way around. But apparently some think the tarnishing gives it a different sound...huh


----------



## Audio-Omega

The cable is pretty flexible for its size.


----------



## bobcn

I've got about 140 hours on the (almost) bottom of the line L70530+8065CT IeGO power cord (the one with silver plugs).

 It's plugged into my Lavry DA10. It replaces an Iron Lung Jellyfish. It damn near destroyed the AC input on the Lavry when I initially plugged it in -- the people that warn you that this cable's plug is tight aren't kidding.

 Initially I could hear a difference between the cables, but it wasn't clear that the IeGO was better -- just different. The fact that I could hear a difference at all was a revelation for me. I wasn't convinced that power cables really could be heard at all and I was prepared to return or sell the cable if it didn't work out.

 At about 90 hours of break-in the IeGO sounded about the same as the Jellyfish and my skepticism was returning. Currently (at 140 hours) it definitely sounds better. The soundstage with the Jellyfish is flat compared to the IeGO. The IeGO has much more depth and definition.

 Hopefully I've got more improvements headed my way. Even if I don't, I'm keeping the IeGO.


----------



## Audio-Omega

My IeGO cord is as fitting as the computer cord I used initially. I had expected it to be tighter but it wasn't. As long as it doesn't fall apart, I'm okay with it. It was one of the cheaper cords I had found. May be it has good value for money.


----------



## Maniac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bobcn* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've got about 140 hours on the (almost) bottom of the line L70530+8065CT IeGO power cord (the one with silver plugs).

 It's plugged into my Lavry DA10. It replaces an Iron Lung Jellyfish. It damn near destroyed the AC input on the Lavry when I initially plugged it in -- the people that warn you that this cable's plug is tight aren't kidding.

 Initially I could hear a difference between the cables, but it wasn't clear that the IeGO was better -- just different. The fact that I could hear a difference at all was a revelation for me. I wasn't convinced that power cables really could be heard at all and I was prepared to return or sell the cable if it didn't work out.

 At about 90 hours of break-in the IeGO sounded about the same as the Jellyfish and my skepticism was returning. Currently (at 140 hours) it definitely sounds better. The soundstage with the Jellyfish is flat compared to the IeGO. The IeGO has much more depth and definition.

 Hopefully I've got more improvements headed my way. Even if I don't, I'm keeping the IeGO._

 

I feel that if you give it heavier load to run-in the cable, it should show the effect sooner. Since running it on a DAC is actually putting a very light load on a heavy gauge cable, you should be expecting some more changes down the road.


----------



## bobcn

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Maniac* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I feel that if you give it heavier load to run-in the cable, it should show the effect sooner. Since running it on a DAC is actually putting a very light load on a heavy gauge cable, you should be expecting some more changes down the road. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

When not listening to the system, I've been running it at relatively high volume with the DAC's built-in headphone amp running. Sure, it will probably take longer to become fully burned-in than it would if I hooked the cord up to my washing machine  , but that's ok -- I can wait.

 What has been your experience with burn-in times on the cords? How long does it usually take for the cords to stabilize? Other commenters have suggested that it can take a very long time -- 300 to 400 hours. Also, what's your experience with burn-in times under different loads? How much does a heavier load speed things up? Can a load be too light to sufficiently burn-in the cord?


----------



## Maniac

IMHO it really depend on the load and what you are running. But even with heavier loads, IeGO's cable still takes quite a while to burn-in. So far I've not heard anyone who isn't able to eventually burn-in the cable (ie getting fairly good results after a few hundred hours of run time), so rest assured that it will burn in eventually, but may take longer on some devices.


 I'm in the process of getting a cable burn-in device and evaluate its performance. Previously I use my PS3 running folding at home to burn in cables, but that was getting a bit too noisy


----------



## bobcn

Thanks for the response. You've got a fine product. Best of luck to you!


----------



## ewliin

Guys, you know this is a power cable don't you, I don't get what you expect it to do better than any other power cable.


 Also, nitrogen freezes at -210C so I don't get how you can treat it with liquid nitrogen at -240C.

 Yeah, spend your money on something more worthwhile please.

 Seriously, it's a power cable.


----------



## Lemmin

Hi, I'm kind of new to this. Can someone explain what the point is of "burning in" a power cable, and what you are likely to gain from it? I can't come up with a sensible scientific hypothesis that would explain why a power cable should sound better after 150 hours of use. What physical changes are taking place within the cable?

 LEM


----------



## Maniac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ewliin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Guys, you know this is a power cable don't you, I don't get what you expect it to do better than any other power cable.


 Also, nitrogen freezes at -210C so I don't get how you can treat it with liquid nitrogen at -240C.

 Yeah, spend your money on something more worthwhile please.

 Seriously, it's a power cable._

 

[Edit]Just checked with the manufacturer, please see post 80 for the details on cryo processing.

 If you have not tried better power cables before, then you really should have, better contact pressure alone would provide some improvement, not to mention better material. Yeah, I used to think power cable don't matter much too, until I heard different (at the time I was anxious to prove it doesn't work too.).


----------



## Maniac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Lemmin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi, I'm kind of new to this. Can someone explain what the point is of "burning in" a power cable, and what you are likely to gain from it? I can't come up with a sensible scientific hypothesis that would explain why a power cable should sound better after 150 hours of use. What physical changes are taking place within the cable?

 LEM_

 

I cannot really explain this really except to tell you what I have experienced, it does matter a lot if the cable is burned-in or not, and more often than not, the cable will work better if it had been in the system for a long time. And they can easily develop directionality too. I have used some second hand bulk cables that looked like it was torn out of a old ship or some old telecom equipments. I simply cut them to length and capped them with banana plugs for use as budget speaker wire. (cost me $50 and sounded better than the cable that I can get new at the same price, so why not?) We weren't sure what direction the cable were used, and we at the time didn't really thought too much about it, unitl we found the left channel speaker was more veiled and more or less muffled than the right speaker. We had tried tweaking the speaker angle and other checks until we were left with the speaker wires. Upon reversing the direction, both sides now sounds the same, not equal to some high priced cable, but not bad still.

 How does that happen? I really have no idea, I can only convey what I have experienced.


----------



## Maniac

Regarding the issue with cryo treatments, I have just contacted IeGO's production guy and they have replied that since they process the bare metal wire before it is made into a cable with sleeving, they can first chill the wire and immerse it in Liquid nitrogen, then further lower the temperature with their equipment to -240C for the 20 hour processing.

 They replied that they don't just use an elaborate thermos bottle for cryo treatment, instead they use equipments that can chill it down even further for better results.

 They also mentioned that the name liquid nitrogen used is because they don't think anyone ever use the term "solid nitrogen" for cryo processing. Thus they still use the term liquid nitrogen for ease of recognition.


----------



## ewliin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Maniac* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_[Edit]Just checked with the manufacturer, please see post 80 for the details on cryo processing.

 If you have not tried better power cables before, then you really should have, better contact pressure alone would provide some improvement, not to mention better material. Yeah, I used to think power cable don't matter much too, until I heard different (at the time I was anxious to prove it doesn't work too.)._

 

Ok, I accept the explanation for the discrepancy in the cryo treatment, it makes sense.

 Regarding the power cables themselves though, I need something more than just "have you tried it?". I'll admit, I never have, and am open to hearing new ideas. But I have a degree in engineering, and am generally scientifically minded. I can't just accept things like this on pure anecdotal evidence, I need some sort of science to back this up.

 Also, in your response to someone else, you start talking about your speaker cables developing "directionality". This just... doesn't make sense.


----------



## Lemmin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Maniac* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ We weren't sure what direction the cable were used, and we at the time didn't really thought too much about it, unitl we found the left channel speaker was more veiled and more or less muffled than the right speaker. We had tried tweaking the speaker angle and other checks until we were left with the speaker wires. Upon reversing the direction, both sides now sounds the same, not equal to some high priced cable, but not bad still.

 How does that happen? I really have no idea, I can only convey what I have experienced._

 

In speaker cables the flow of electrons goes in both directions equally, since its a waveform thats being sent (unlike a DC power cable where the current flows in one direction only). Therefore there shouldn't be any difference in which way around you wire the cables.

 I expect the act of turning them around made a better connection between the amp and speaker and solved the problem. Its was probably just a bad connection, or oxidised cable or something.


 As regards the cooling, its true that a slush of liquid and solid nitrogen is a much more effective coolant (since liquid nitrogen alone tends to flash-boil into an insulative gas when it comes into contact with hotter objects, thus reducing its effect) but maybe they should just have said "cryogenic cooling"?


 I'm still not sure how burning a cable in (especially a power cable???) can help. I'm used to the world of electronics, where you get electron migration and other nasty effects in the tiny cables over time, that eventually turns them into tubular structures (rather than a solid bar as they started out), thus massively reducing their current carrying capacity, which should lead to a degradation of quality. I'm willing to believe its different in larger scale cables though. 

 Maniac, since you are in contact with IeGO, maybe you could ask them for an explaination as to how "burning in" improves quality? I'm intrigued as to how it works, I'd love to know whats going on inside my cables 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 LEM


----------



## Maniac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ewliin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ok, I accept the explanation for the discrepancy in the cryo treatment, it makes sense.

 Regarding the power cables themselves though, I need something more than just "have you tried it?". I'll admit, I never have, and am open to hearing new ideas. But I have a degree in engineering, and am generally scientifically minded. I can't just accept things like this on pure anecdotal evidence, I need some sort of science to back this up.

 Also, in your response to someone else, you start talking about your speaker cables developing "directionality". This just... doesn't make sense._

 

Well scientifically minded also mean that you would also accept evidences provided from experiments if it is showing clear differences like it is the case with different power cables or directionality. A lot of things in the industry is never fully understood (I'm not sure if this directionality and power cable effect is, but I'm more or less treating it as that), but still accepted as fact that it works, just no one is quite sure why.

 Well if you are really scientifically minded, I'd suggest getting/borrowing some power cable on good audio equipments (maybe some of your friends or shops that you know well have them?), and hear them for yourself. And oh, high quality wall socket also matters, I have heard some electronics assembly lines were testing high quality wall sockets, and ended up retrofitting hospital grade sockets all over the place.


----------



## Maniac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Lemmin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_In speaker cables the flow of electrons goes in both directions equally, since its a waveform thats being sent (unlike a DC power cable where the current flows in one direction only). Therefore there shouldn't be any difference in which way around you wire the cables._

 

That's my understanding too, but it just happen to be proven otherwise right in front of my face.

  Quote:


 I expect the act of turning them around made a better connection between the amp and speaker and solved the problem. Its was probably just a bad connection, or oxidised cable or something. 
 

Actually, that was checked as well. I have a habit of making sure the connection is very tight, all banana plug are pristine new "wavy" type of banana plug with high quality direct plate gold, no visible defect were found. And the cable, all oxidized part are cut away, only the fresh wire that had not been touched by oxygen before were then tightened in the connector.

 As for speakers, and amps, the binding post are quite fresh as well, so that's also unlikely to be oxidized.

  Quote:


 As regards the cooling, its true that a slush of liquid and solid nitrogen is a much more effective coolant (since liquid nitrogen alone tends to flash-boil into an insulative gas when it comes into contact with hotter objects, thus reducing its effect) but maybe they should just have said "cryogenic cooling"? 
 

That would sound like gas phase cooling, which is close to 100C higher in temperature than that they did. Anyhow, now we know how they do it, the term is more or less not an issue. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





  Quote:


 I'm still not sure how burning a cable in (especially a power cable???) can help. I'm used to the world of electronics, where you get electron migration and other nasty effects in the tiny cables over time, that eventually turns them into tubular structures (rather than a solid bar as they started out), thus massively reducing their current carrying capacity, which should lead to a degradation of quality. I'm willing to believe its different in larger scale cables though. 
 

Well, truth be told, I'm not quite sure either. I've ordered a Cable Cooker device that should burn in the cable faster and see if there are any effects. I'll also see if my multi-meter (0.0x ohm capable) can detect any measurable difference before and after the burn-in. If not I'll see if I can steal someone's milli-ohm meter for a few minutes to check it out.

  Quote:


 Maniac, since you are in contact with IeGO, maybe you could ask them for an explaination as to how "burning in" improves quality? I'm intrigued as to how it works, I'd love to know whats going on inside my cables 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 LEM 
 

They are not quite sure either, but I have heard from someone in the power business (as in high voltage power lines) saying that when a fresh line is installed, initially it will have a bit more voltage drop, and it will slowly get better over the hours (much faster than what we would see in audio stuff) and eventually the voltage drop would become low and stable.

 the info above is second hand, does anyone know of people in power generation/power transmission industry to verify if that was true or my source was making it up?


----------



## andrew3199

I thought a good Shielded cable was all that was needed. Shielded! Yes, anything else......


----------



## Maniac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *andrew3199* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I thought a good Shielded cable was all that was needed. Shielded! Yes, anything else......
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





_

 

Cable also have connectors, and if those connector are not performing well, it will drag down the performance of a good cable.

 As for shield, there are many types, from aluminum coated mylar to our copper foil for foil type, and braided metal type of shield, each of different property and coverage percentages. 


 IMHO, it not just one thing that matters, the whole thing works together to make it either good or bad.


----------



## royalcrown

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Maniac* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well scientifically minded also mean that you would also accept evidences provided from experiments if it is showing clear differences like it is the case with different power cables or directionality. A lot of things in the industry is never fully understood (I'm not sure if this directionality and power cable effect is, but I'm more or less treating it as that), but still accepted as fact that it works, just no one is quite sure why.
 ---
 Well if you are really scientifically minded, I'd suggest getting/borrowing some power cable on good audio equipments (maybe some of your friends or shops that you know well have them?), and hear them for yourself. And oh, high quality wall socket also matters, I have heard some electronics assembly lines were testing high quality wall sockets, and ended up retrofitting hospital grade sockets all over the place._

 

.... Oh my god. You can believe that power cables influence the audio signal all you want, but please do not call that perception scientifically minded, because that's simply a perversion of the term and the spirit behind it. The scientific method, and its accompanied rigor, is the standard behind scientific thinking, and (suprise surprise!) one of the key elements of a sound scientific experiment is controlling and blocking - including rigorous blind and double-blind testing. Scientists never randomly go around swapping audio cables and letting their mind influence their perception of the signal. Rather, they conduct controlled and carefully defined experiments. It just so happens that double-blind testing is an _excellent_ way to scientifically control two groups to reduce the chance of observational error.

 The scientific spirit (and indeed, the scientific community at large) has *never* advocated running around haphazardly and claiming untested things to be true. Rather, if a phenomenon exists, the scientific process would be to carefully examine the phenomenon and ensure that it actually exists through rigorous and sometimes repeated experimentation to ensure that it actually exists before claiming it so.


----------



## mojo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Maniac* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Cable also have connectors, and if those connector are not performing well, it will drag down the performance of a good cable._

 

Actually, a poorer connector might perform better for a power cable.

 AC power is 100-230V/50-60Hz. Even a fairly rubbish connector will have no problem with that, and even if it does it makes no odds since the equipment converts it to DC anyway. What's more, having a gold plated high quality connector is only going to transmit more noise, which of course we don't want.

 Power is like the opposite of an audio signal. With audio you want maximum detail and accuracy, with the smallest to the strongest signals preserved. With power, you want just the one big sine wave, and even that isn't hugely important due to DC conversion. Anything else is just noise, which the expensive shielding on the cable is supposed to, well, shield...


----------



## Maniac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *royalcrown* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_.... Oh my god. You can believe that power cables influence the audio signal all you want, but please do not call that perception scientifically minded, because that's simply a perversion of the term and the spirit behind it. The scientific method, and its accompanied rigor, is the standard behind scientific thinking, and (suprise surprise!) one of the key elements of a sound scientific experiment is controlling and blocking - including rigorous blind and double-blind testing. Scientists never randomly go around swapping audio cables and letting their mind influence their perception of the signal. Rather, they conduct controlled and carefully defined experiments. It just so happens that double-blind testing is an excellent way to scientifically control two groups to reduce the chance of observational error.

 The scientific spirit (and indeed, the scientific community at large) has *never* advocated running around haphazardly and claiming untested things to be true. Rather, if a phenomenon exists, the scientific process would be to carefully examine the phenomenon and ensure that it actually exists through rigorous and sometimes repeated experimentation to ensure that it actually exists before claiming it so._

 

Well, have you tested the cables? I don't believe scientific community have the habit of claiming untested things as untrue either. From what I understand, scientific community does not always start somewhere where they have a theory then test, sometimes an effect is observed and then people try to find out why.


 I do not believe much in cable before, then I found out the interesting effect of cables in transmitting signals between devices. I still don't believe much in power cables then until I tried them in my system.

 I have also found an interesting effect of high quality, usually cable that is made with heavy percentage of silver or pure silver, then coupled with a connector that is of lower quality when compared to the cable. The effect is rather interesting that this type of cable often exhibit less decay, and it become somewhat of an abrupt end. Interestingly this effect exhibit itself in both interconnect AND power cable.

 Am I going to spend time to discover the physics behind this all? Nope, I'm not interested in the nitty gritty detail of how it happens, and nor do I have to resource or background knowledge to research it anyways. Does that mean it does not exist, no, it is just not scientifically EXPLAINED. Something not yet explained by science doesn't automatically cease to exist, don't you think?


----------



## Maniac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mojo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Actually, a poorer connector might perform better for a power cable.

 AC power is 100-230V/50-60Hz. Even a fairly rubbish connector will have no problem with that, and even if it does it makes no odds since the equipment converts it to DC anyway. What's more, having a gold plated high quality connector is only going to transmit more noise, which of course we don't want.

 Power is like the opposite of an audio signal. With audio you want maximum detail and accuracy, with the smallest to the strongest signals preserved. With power, you want just the one big sine wave, and even that isn't hugely important due to DC conversion. Anything else is just noise, which the expensive shielding on the cable is supposed to, well, shield..._

 

A poor connector will actually have problems like self heating, arcing, and generally dangerous effect.

 If you want some resistance in your cable, add a resistor, use NiChrome wires for your cable, or some other means that won't set fire to your house.


----------



## royalcrown

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Maniac* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, have you tested the cables? I don't believe scientific community have the habit of claiming untested things as untrue either._

 

Absolutely, totally, completely wrong. The status quo is always assumed to be true until an observational test has been performed. Think about how absurd it would be if everything was true until proven false - I could just as easily say "the US government sunk the Titanic, and until there's proof that they didn't do it, I'm convinced they did." It's a lot more rational to go by what we already know, and then from there try to discover new things.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Maniac* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_From what I understand, scientific community does not always start somewhere where they have a theory then test, sometimes an effect is observed and then people try to find out why._

 

Observations also have to be controlled. Though the usage of the word "observation" in day-to-day speech implies some sort of informal noticing of a change, the scientific meaning of the word is far more formal and meaningful (much like the word theory, when used in common speech and in a scientific context). That's the whole purpose of double blind tests - we're not looking to explain something, we're trying to observe if the difference existed at all.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Maniac* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Am I going to spend time to discover the physics behind this all? Nope, I'm not interested in the nitty gritty detail of how it happens, and nor do I have to resource or background knowledge to research it anyways. Does that mean it does not exist, no, it is just not scientifically EXPLAINED. Something not yet explained by science doesn't automatically cease to exist, don't you think?_

 

You're saying one thing and meaning another. You have to realize that nobody really cares about why cables make a difference - rather, we're trying to find out whether or not cables make a difference at all. What you're saying basically amounts to "I don't care if I'm confounded, but I will establish the link anyway." There actually is a scientific explanation for what could very well be happening, and it's been reiterated over and over - the placebo effect. It's not a bad thing, but it's completely subconscious and beyond our control. 

 Indeed, someone could sell acetaminophen for 5,000 dollars a pop, and the pill could be EXACTLY identical to Tylenol, but if people felt that it was more effective than Tylenol at stopping pain, that doesn't mean we simply associate the change to some mysterious property inside the pill itself. Rather, what's just happened is confounding - you've attributed the change to one factor even though another factor was changed in the process (the mental state, or the placebo effect). Well, at this point we don't know what's causing the increase in efficacy - is it placebo effect, or the pill itself? That's why, in order to confirm an observation (that the pill does indeed work better than Tylenol), one must do a blind test to rule out the placebo effect altogether.

 After all, by your logic (I hear a difference, therefore there is a difference), the two spots A and B are different shades of grey:







 Think they are? Try printing out the image and cutting out the squares, and putting the isolated squares on a white sheet of paper. Alternatively, staring at the midway point between the two squares for some time works on some people.


----------



## Maniac

Well, interesting optical illusion. However, it does not apply to what we are talking about.

 You have provided NO indication that you have tested the cables before, I suggest that you take a few weeks to try different cables out, and have the cable properly burned-in before continuing on the discussion.


 How do you know the tests other people have conducted are not controlled so that the person listening does not have the knowledge of what cable is in use? Or are you arrogantly believe that all tested conducted by people who found that there is a difference is flawed, without even verifying that they are flawed or not?


 I have experience with observers not knowing if there's ANY change done at all, and they accurately identified that the performance improved. Sometimes their comment wasn't even solicited, some of the times they just noted that the overall sound has improved while they are passing by the stereo setup. When I'm testing, I always made sure that the person who were listening have NO knowledge of what cable is in use. Hell, there's a mass of cables there that look quite similar, I won't be able to tell even unless I look at the tiny label on the plug itself.


 Now then, can you try it out yourself and find out yourself if it actually made a difference before disputing it all as false? Please don't use equiptments that doesn't have a swappable cable when you do try it out, and of course, often the better the equipment, the more effect that the cable will be able to project.


----------



## royalcrown

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Maniac* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, interesting optical illusion. However, it does not apply to what we are talking about._

 

It has everything to do with the discussion. You think there's a difference between power cables because you hear a difference. Most people would think there's a difference between those two squares because they see a difference. Too bad there isn't one. I don't really see how I can show the parallel more plainly - it's pretty analogous.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Maniac* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You have provided NO indication that you have tested the cables before, I suggest that you take a few weeks to try different cables out, and have the cable properly burned-in before continuing on the discussion._

 

I don't need to pull a cow's tail while standing behind it to know it's a bad idea, even if all of my friends tell me it's a sweet idea (stole that from a drug-free ad). Looking before leaping is a pretty sound principle to follow in general.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Maniac* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How do you know the tests other people have conducted are not controlled so that the person listening does not have the knowledge of what cable is in use? Or are you arrogantly believe that all tested conducted by people who found that there is a difference is flawed, without even verifying that they are flawed or not?_

 

I'm not so arrogant to believe that all tests performed are flawed, but I'm not so naive to believe that something is blind just because someone tells me so on an internet forum (not to mention nobody outlines what double-blind procedure they used, let alone even calling any testing they've done "double blind" to begin with). Document the test properly, and/or submit it for peer review. Like I've said before (not necessarily in this thread), it will only take one properly conducted ABX test to convince me.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Maniac* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have experience with observers not knowing if there's ANY change done at all, and they accurately identified that the performance improved. Sometimes their comment wasn't even solicited, some of the times they just noted that the overall sound has improved while they are passing by the stereo setup. When I'm testing, I always made sure that the person who were listening have NO knowledge of what cable is in use. Hell, there's a mass of cables there that look quite similar, I won't be able to tell even unless I look at the tiny label on the plug itself._

 

Then document it and submit it on this website (alternatively, submit it for peer review, but you'll need a more formal testing environment for it to be taken seriously). Seriously, until hard proof is shown it's purely anecdotal. 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Maniac* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Now then, can you try it out yourself and find out yourself if it actually made a difference before disputing it all as false?_

 

No. I have better things to spend my money on. If a properly done test demonstrates audibility, then I'll consider it. I mean, I personally would rather spend my money on something proven to work than something that's ambiguous if I'm paying top dollar (which is why I pass on homeopathic remedies in lieu of the FDA-approved stuff, even if I'm not paying top-dollar in that case). 

 Plus, remember, I am a proponent of the scientific model. Status quo remains until something proves it different.


----------



## mojo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Maniac* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_A poor connector will actually have problems like self heating, arcing, and generally dangerous effect._

 

Dude, if my connector was getting hot or arching, I'd throw it away immediately and replace the cable!

 Needless to say it is broken.


----------



## Maniac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *royalcrown* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_<snip>_

 

Well, it appears that you are not interested in cable either makes a difference or not, but you are only interested in denying that it have any effect. The description that I wrote for my cable ARE what I and several friends heard from the cable. I was quite careful when I was writing it, and made sure that it actually can have the desired effect before I wrote it.

 If you are not interested in trying anything, then why are you even here discussing? I have tested the cables repeatedly, against other know high quality cables and computer grade cables. That is also the reason why that I would pluck down the cash to actually stock a good quantity of it, because I know it works and it is not placebo.


----------



## Maniac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mojo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Dude, if my connector was getting hot or arching, I'd throw it away immediately and replace the cable!

 Needless to say it is broken._

 

Have you actually checked out anything that you said before? Fairly rubbish connector WILL self heat under heavy load (does not have to be extremely heavy load, something like 600W will do).

 Clearly you do not know the difference between inductors and resistors... If you add resistance it will attenuate BOTH the power AND the noise to the same degree, thus the total percentage makeup of the noise component still stays the same. And poor connector does exactly that, I doubt any of those rubbish connectors can actually add any significant inductance to the power circuit.


----------



## royalcrown

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Maniac* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, it appears that you are not interested in cable either makes a difference or not, but you are only interested in denying that it have any effect. The description that I wrote for my cable ARE what I and several friends heard from the cable. I was quite careful when I was writing it, and made sure that it actually can have the desired effect before I wrote it._

 

Absolutely not. I'm all for the pursuit of truth and understanding, whether that be for audio or any of my other interests. That's the exact reason I'm such a big proponent of ABX texts - if we could have a proper test that shows that power cables do in fact make a difference, that would end this debate once and for all. However, going out and buying a bunch of cables isn't the proper way to seek truth in whether or not audio cables make a difference, because I would also be susceptible to the placebo effect. 

 The way you word your sentences is really what irks me the most. How do you know that the cables actually produce that effect that you heard? How do you know it wasn't something else? The only way to isolate (or get as close as we can get to total isolation) the cable as being the only factor in any comparison is through blind testing, preferably ABX. It's the same thing that drug manufacturers must do in order to mitigate the placebo effect when producing drugs for FDA approval.

 In fact, that's a fascinating field that really deserves more than the brushing aside that you're giving it. You'll often hear that a given drug is 88% effective compared to 43% placebo (or some such numbers). Those 43% that got a placebo KNEW they felt a difference. They could've SWORN that their fever went down due to the medication they took, when in reality they took a mostly inert pill with no therapeutic benefits at all. They KNEW that the sugar pill was the thing that made their headache go away, when in reality it wasn't the pill, but their belief in the pill that produced the desired effects by itself. The brain is a complex and powerful organ, and one would be wise not to underestimate its potential. 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Maniac* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That is also the reason why that I would pluck down the cash to actually stock a good quantity of it, because I know it works and it is not placebo._

 

See above. How do you KNOW that cables work and that it is indeed not placebo? Unless you did a proper ABX text, even if you didn't know that the placebo effect was at work it could still be working in your subconscious.


----------



## Audio-Omega

Is someone here taking over from James Randi ?


----------



## Maniac

Well, because I have A/B tested them as I have said before, and I have several trusted friend that also heard it. And I'm very careful in NOT poisoning their perception before they have came to a conclusion on what they have heard during each listening session.

 I know what I heard, and I know they did hear what they hear.


----------



## royalcrown

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Maniac* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 I know what I heard, and I know they did hear what they hear._

 

If you're so confident in it, then why don't you do a double blind test on it? You obviously believe in A/B testing, so what special insight do you gain by A) not matching levels and B) peeking at the labels?


----------



## Maniac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *royalcrown* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If you're so confident in it, then why don't you do a double blind test on it? You obviously believe in A/B testing, so what special insight do you gain by A) not matching levels and B) peeking at the labels?_

 

It is not necessary, since some of my friends have hearing ability so far above and beyond me, and they do not know what cable was used during the testing sessions. They agree with my conclusions completely. Yes, we both form the conclusion before we ever started talking about what we hear, so there's no way what he said was affecting what I heard or what I think I heard.

 Like I said, if you are so interested, BORROW something and try it yourself. It would be some rather interesting and exhausting experience.


----------



## mojo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Maniac* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Have you actually checked out anything that you said before? Fairly rubbish connector WILL self heat under heavy load (does not have to be extremely heavy load, something like 600W will do)._

 

600W not a heavy load!?!

 That's massive. I mean, you do understand the difference between RMS power output of an amp and PMPO? 600W for a PA perhaps, not for a HiFi in a normal house.

 Of course connectors, and wire for that matter does heat up a little but under very high load. If it ever happened under the kind of loads I get with HiFi equipment though, I'd definitely replace the cord as a matter of electrical safety.


----------



## Maniac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mojo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_600W not a heavy load!?!

 That's massive. I mean, you do understand the difference between RMS power output of an amp and PMPO? 600W for a PA perhaps, not for a HiFi in a normal house.

 Of course connectors, and wire for that matter does heat up a little but under very high load. If it ever happened under the kind of loads I get with HiFi equipment though, I'd definitely replace the cord as a matter of electrical safety._

 

TV, Amps, player and a few other items combined can easily reach 600W, and if you use something like a power bar, then that means all 600W will be routed through ONE outlet.


 600W is not a heavy load as of yet, I'd consider 1000W or above as heavy, and oh, most hair dryer uses 700W and up.


----------



## royalcrown

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Maniac* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It is not necessary, since some of my friends have hearing ability so far above and beyond me, and they do not know what cable was used during the testing sessions. They agree with my conclusions completely. Yes, we both form the conclusion before we ever started talking about what we hear, so there's no way what he said was affecting what I heard or what I think I heard._

 

Really? You know this? Please, everything you say will undoubtedly affect their responses, if not define them altogether. Emperor's New Clothes anyone?


----------



## Maniac

Well, you've been playing as someone who want to know about cable, while in truth you play your every single card trying to denying that cable have any effect at all. If you actually READ what I wrote, I made sure they came to their own conclusion before discussion even begins.

 I want to KNOW what THEY think about the cable, not what I think of it, thus I DO NOT give them a single hint about the cables before or during the testing. The only thing they know is that there's something new, but they have no idea which session it will be introduced, nor where it is installed.


----------



## royalcrown

I think you're misunderstanding me. The fact that you do indeed say "there is something new in the system," means that they are much more likely to look for, and even subconsciously fabricate, perceptions. 

 Also, let's not forget that the test is still subjective because it's not double blind. You, as the administrator of the test, still have access to the equipment and thus can still inject subjectivity into the methodology. On top of that, the test isn't ABX, so it's impossible to tell whether or not they could reliably tell which is which during the test. 

 I'm not playing "every single card trying to deny that cable have any effect at all [sic]". I'm trying to show you how your methodology about determining whether or not cables do or do not have any effect at all is flawed. Sure I want to investigate the matter, but not in a haphazard, informal, and subjective manner. That's not gonna do anything other than obfuscate results.


----------



## Maniac

You still didn't read what I was writing, eh? I never said there's one listening session at a time, there are multiple listening sessions every time we try out something new, where the person doing the evaluation never know WHEN it is placed in, or if it was ever introduced at all.

 That's what we call A/B testing, or are you unable to see that when you do A/B testing, you test more than just one configuration and tell the difference if there are differences to be told?


 Please stop trying to pretend that you are unable to read my messages... Please...


----------



## mojo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Maniac* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_TV, Amps, player and a few other items combined can easily reach 600W, and if you use something like a power bar, then that means all 600W will be routed through ONE outlet.


 600W is not a heavy load as of yet, I'd consider 1000W or above as heavy, and oh, most hair dryer uses 700W and up._

 

You ignored the argument. I win!


----------



## royalcrown

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Maniac* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You still didn't read what I was writing, eh? I never said there's one listening session at a time, there are multiple listening sessions every time we try out something new, where the person doing the evaluation never know WHEN it is placed in, or if it was ever introduced at all._

 

Really? You have listening sessions where you haven't changed anything, and they always know when they're listening to the same rig vs. a different power cable? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 If you're trying to simply win an argument, I'll let you. I honestly don't care. I do know that I'm not naive enough to believe that, through three different revisions of a scenario (just because you accuse me of not reading what you wrote doesn't mean that you haven't changed your story three times), some story on an internet forum without some proof. Surely if you're able to do all of what you say you can easily do an ABX, right?

 Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal evidence.

 BTW, before you accuse other people of not reading your own posts, you should probably read theirs:

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *royalcrown* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Also, let's not forget that the test is still subjective because it's not double blind. You, as the administrator of the test, still have access to the equipment and thus can still inject subjectivity into the methodology. On top of that, the test isn't ABX, so it's impossible to tell whether or not they could reliably tell which is which during the test. _


----------



## Maniac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mojo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You ignored the argument. I win! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

You won what? You still have not shown any proof of your theories or experiments showing that it could happen.


----------



## Maniac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *royalcrown* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Really? You have listening sessions where you haven't changed anything, and they always know when they're listening to the same rig vs. a different power cable? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 If you're trying to simply win an argument, I'll let you. I honestly don't care. I do know that I'm not naive enough to believe that, through three different revisions of a scenario (just because you accuse me of not reading what you wrote doesn't mean that you haven't changed your story three times), some story on an internet forum without some proof. Surely if you're able to do all of what you say you can easily do an ABX, right?

 Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal evidence.

 BTW, before you accuse other people of not reading your own posts, you should probably read theirs:_

 

Perhaps you should still go back to my messages and check again, I do proper A/B testing, and not just changing from one to the other, but also back and forth several times and noting the change observed each time something is changed. Nothing is revealed to the listener except that they may be a change during this pause, and the difference or the lack of is noted then go on to the next session.

 You kept on insisting that the thing is not real, not true, and not reliable. Perhaps you should perform a massive test that consists of rigorous and scientific methods that you have been speaking about, and show us the results. As I have said, the test result are what I wrote for description of each cable, and I personally stand behind them. If I cannot be certain that the product achieve the said effect, then I will not write it into the description.

 IMHO, you should really do some experiments rather than just kept working on theories of how it won't work.


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## royalcrown

I would love to perform a test on any audiophile willing to in the Chicago/Chicago suburbs area. There's no point in me doing the test myself because I know that I'll get the inevitable "you have tin ears"


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## Maniac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *royalcrown* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I would love to perform a test on any audiophile willing to in the Chicago/Chicago suburbs area. There's no point in me doing the test myself because I know that I'll get the inevitable "you have tin ears" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Well, tin ears or wooden ears as we call them here, isn't bad either, since that means you will not need to spend much on the audio gears compared to those who can hear a difference.


 Do test cables that had been in use for quite some time, not just a bunch of brand new cables that have not been used before.


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## slwiser

I am thinking about ordering a couple more of the standard variety, anyone else?


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## sbulack

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *slwiser* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am thinking about ordering a couple more of the standard variety, anyone else?_

 

Nice thread you started here. I ended up ordering one of the completely vanilla cords (all copper plugs) in a 3 m length. I've got a small variety of aftermarket power cords available so that I can compare it to those and find where I'd place it in my own personal preference ranking. I'm glad that you decided to start this thread to let us know about this very interesting product.


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## Audio-Omega

I only need one at this time. May be I will get another one when I have a new CD player.


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## nick20

Maniac, please clear your PM's, you're full again.





 -Nick


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