# The Sub-$200 Portable Amps Shootout – 13 (+11) amps compared



## ClieOS

This is basically an extension of the sub-$100 amp shootout as the evaluation and scoring method are essentially the same. As always, this comparison is only a subjective evaluation and nothing more than my own personal opinion.
   
*Evaluation Method*
  Sources: Sansa Fuze via custom LOD (around 0.5Vrms)
  IEM used for evaluation: HifiMan RE0, Etymotic ER4S and Shure SE530.
  Amps are all in their lowest gain setting. Volume matched using a SPL meter to ≤1dB via white noise and double checked with a multimeter. They are also RMAA tested (loop-out / loop-in though Tone Well UT24 audio interface with a 16ohm load) but only result of significant will be discussed. Output impedance and power are measured using fixed loads and 1kHz tone. The reference amps used for the elevation are Meier Audio StepDance and NwAvGuys’ O2 (built by JDS Labs), both excellent amps of their own.
   
  (Note: it would seem strange that O2 is both the reference amp as well as an amp under review, but this is only because of how good I think it is.)
   
*Criteria*
*[Build Quality]*
  Build quality covers not only housing, but also material, design, size, etc – plastic is not necessary rated worst than metal. Functionality is the key here.
   
*[Power]*
  Current are measured (volume matched driving fixed 47 ohm and 23.5 ohm load, 1kHz pure tone) to multiple with voltage for power.  Most amp have more than enough power for typical IEM, the important point is having enough voltage for high impedance IEM (>100 ohm) and enough current for low impedance IEM (<16 ohm). However, only two typical numbers are covered here.
   
*[Power Drop]*
  Calculated from the data generated in the Power measurement, this percentage shows how much power is lost when switching from a 47ohm fixed load to a 25.5ohm fixed load. Ideally a lesser power drop indicates a more consistent amp’s performance between different load situations. It also shows the direct negative impact on power delivery caused by higher output impedance.
   
*[Output Impedance]*
  Calculated from the voltage difference between no-load and a 47 ohm fixed load with a 1kHz pure tone. Less than 1 ohm is best for most IEM as it has the best dampening and doesn’t affect the FR curve of the IEM.
   
*[Portability]*
  Size and weight comparison. Ratings are given as relative. From Biggest (1/5) to smallest (5/5)
   
*[Speed]*
  Related to transient. Mainly about the sense of attack - especially noticeable on bass note.
   
*[Transparency]*
  Not related to coloration, transparency is used as the sum of the openness and layering of the amp, which are what essential to produce the depth of the sound field
   
*[Soundstage]*
  If transparency is the depth, then soundstage is used as the sum of width and separations. Together, they define the overall resolution of the amp.
   
*[Coloration / Neutrality]*
  This can be either pure measurement (FR curve) or perceived difference in presentation. O2 will be the main reference here.
   
*[EMI]*
  Tested using a cellphone receiving call in very close proximity.
   
*[Hissing]*
  How well the amp behaves with hiss prone IEM, mainly SE530.
   
*[Remark]*
  Odds and ends that are not covered on above.
   
*Rating*
  Out of a full mark of 5 points
  ● = 1 point
  ◎ = ½ point
  ○ = Zero point
i.e. ●●●◎○ = 3½ points
   






  Obsession can be quite costly.
   
*Content*
  Take note the grayed out amps in the list have been previous reviewed in the sub-$100 shootout and are mostly quoted from previous review with updated measurements.
  (In alphabetical order)
   

 digiZoid ZO2.3 ($119.95)
 FiiO E12 Mont Blanc ($130)
 FiiO E17 Alpen ($140)
 
 HeadRoom Total BitHead ($150)
 iBasso D-ZERO ($109)
 iBasso T3 ($119)
 iBasso T5 ($169)
 JDS Labs C421 – AD8620 ($189)
 JDS Labs C421 – OPA2227 ($184)
 *JDS Labs C5* ($189)
 JDS Labs Objective 2 ($144)
 Lear FSM-01 ($130)
 Leckerton Audio UHA-4 ($199)


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## ClieOS

*digiZoid ZO2.3 *(from sub-$100 shootout)
Build Quality: ●●●●● (Beautifully finished, even with a full plastic housing) 
Power: ●●●●◎ (Decently powerful)
Power Drop: 6%
Output Impedance:  ●●●●○ (2Ω)
Portability: ●●●●◎ (Ultra-portable)
Speed: ●●●●○ (Decent)
Transparency: ●●●◎○ (slightly forwarded)
Soundstage: ●●●○○ (Not particularly wide)
Coloration / Neutrality: ●●●◎○ (Never quite a flat line, but EQ is its game)
EMI: ●●●◎○ (Easily susceptible)
Hissing: ●●●○○ (Fairly noticeable)
Remark: The bass boosting ZO2.3 isn’t near the best sounding amp in the comparison and yet it is one of the most expensive (top at $99.95 ***digiZoid has increased the price to $119.95, making ZO2.3 invalid for the sub$100 comparison). As purely an amp, ZO2.3 has a roll off bass (in Bass Level 0 setting) and doesn’t have quite the resolution compared to those that are cheaper in price. However, ZO2.3 brings something else to the table that will worth your while – the multi-level bass boost, and improved from the original ZO, the ability to take line-out signal. Though it might not be the best sounding or the most powerful amp around, it is great for adding bass to lean sounding IEM. At least for me, I tend to see it as an EQ first and an amp second. It is small so it won’t take much space, and the overall finish is pretty good. The output impedance is a bit high, but any IEM over 16 ohm shouldn’t be a problem at all. However, I won’t use it with IEM of very low impedance (or really high sensitivity) as hissing can become more noticeable.
  
  




*FiiO E17 Alpen*
 Build Quality: ●●●●● (Solid design with good functionality)
 Power: ●●●●● (Plenty)
 Power Drop: 3.9%
 Output Impedance:  ●●●●● (0.6 Ω)
 Portability: ●●○○○ (Full size)
 Speed: ●●●●◎ (tiny bit softer in kick but really good overall)
 Transparency: ●●●●○ (decent)
 Soundstage: ●●●●○ (decent)
 Coloration / Neutrality: ●●●●◎ (Warmish and slightly forward, but not nothing major to complain about)
 EMI: ●●●●● (dead silence)
 Hissing: ●●●●● (Very very minor, only detectable in high volume)
 Remark: Functionality is the key for E17 Alpen. It isn’t the best sound of the batch but it has the SQ to get the job done. Most importantly, it takes more type of inputs (USB, Coaxial, optical and analog line-in) than any portable amp/DAC that you can find for with a maximum of 24/192 support with a cheaper price tag. Best bang for the bucks is what E17 is all about. For harder to drive headphone, E17 can even dock onto E9 or the newer E09k for higher output. With the FiiO L7 connector, you can also use E17 as a standalone DAC for outputting line-signal to another amp. By itself, the performance of the amp section is about the same level as FiiO’s own E11 and iBasso T3. Beside the fact that the DAC section has a very mild, almost inaudible -3dB roll-off over 18kHz (probably due to the DAC’s reconstruction filter), there is very little technical fault on the device itself. It is a well rounded, all purpose multi-tool of a portable amp/DAC. It might be master-of-none, but one can hardly ask for more with the $140 price tag.
  
  




*FiiO E12 Mont Blanc*
 Build Quality: ●●●●● (Solid)
 Power: ●●●●● (Plenty)
 Power Drop: -1.5%
 Output Impedance:  ●●●●● (0 Ω, too low for measurement)
 Portability: ●●○○○ (Full size)
 Speed: ●●●●◎ (Sharp and energitic)
 Transparency: ●●●◎○ (Only decent)
 Soundstage: ●●◎○○ (Mediocre)
 Coloration / Neutrality: ●●●●○ (The narrow soundstage makes everything sounds more forwarded and warmer than it should)
 EMI: ●●●◎○ (Noticeable and annoying, but not overly loud)
 Hissing: ●●●●◎ (Silence in operation, but hiss when recharging)
 Remark: E12 is the first FiiO portable amp that can be called a top sounding amp, or at least very close to one - immensely powerful and well controlled but lacks the best transparency and soundstage. The narrower width and depth cause the overall presentation to push forwarded, giving an impression of warmth and energitic sound with a rather musical vocal. However, the forwardness also reduces overall resolution and refinement. Porbably best pair with full size headphone that is either wide in soundstage or more laid back in nature. Sub-bass is a little (-1dB) rolled off near 20Hz, but small enough not to be noticeble. It would have been a great amp if it has the soundstage to match its power, but still a really solid choice for its $130 price tag
  
  




*HeadRoom Total BitHead* (from sub-$100 shootout)
Build Quality: ●●●●● (Like a tank)
Power: ●●●○○ (Weak, worsen as load impedance goes down)
Power Drop: 9.7%
Output Impedance: ●●◎○○ (5.4Ω)
Portability: ●○○○○ (Larger than typical full size)
Speed: ●●●●◎ (Good speed, though impact is slightly weak)
Transparency: ●●●●○ (Decently deep)
Soundstage: ●●●●◎ (Fairly good)
Coloration / Neutrality: ●●●◎○ (Rolling off at the bass’ end with a 16ohm load is not a good thing)
EMI: ●○○○○ (Really bad)
Hissing: ●●◎○○ (Rather bad)
Remark: Like PA2V2, the Total AirHead (TA, and TBH in this case) is an old design. For whatever reason, HeadRoom doesn’t seem to want to update the design for the new generation of IEM that are much more efficient and probably trickier to drive. The good news first – 1) TA is the only amp in the comparison with a crossfeed circuit. I have had other portable amps with crossfeed before and the implementation on TA (TBH) is by far the best in creating a very relaxing, natural, binaural-like listening effect. 2) The TA, as well as the Total BitHead (which is what steps in for TA here), is built like a tank. It might be a full plastic + rubber construction, the design is very much foolproof.  The use of 4 AA batteries also means this amp will last almost forever as opposed to the Li-ion battery used on other amps. But it does come with the price of overall portability. 3) Transparency and soundstage are quite good, despite the other problems I’ll mention below.
  
Now comes the bad news – 1) the high output impedance means any headphone under 40 ohm (following the 8x rule) will not be ideal for the amp. In fact, most of the sensitive multi-driver IEM with crossover circuit will probably sound quite colored. 2) Result of rolloff under 100dB (to -3dB @ 20Hz) with a 16 ohm test load is an indication of too small an output caps. It is not as bad as ZO2.3 in flat EQ mode, but at least ZO2.3 has bass boost to bring back (and excel) the bass. 3) Under RMAA testing, TA’s (and TBH’s) performance worsens with lower impedance load. While it still has more than enough power, it seems to indicate that the amp is having trouble keeping the same performance when impedance is too low. All and all, the result of the tests is pointing toward the conclusion that TA (and TBH) is just not an IEM friendly amp. This won’t be surprising if we consider that there aren’t quite as many IEM users around when the TA (and TBH) was designed. Like PA2V2, it is an outdated design for the current market and is costing too much to be considered a good buy. 4) The USB DAC section in TBH isn’t nearly as nice sounding as many other cheaper options available today. Any other amp/DAC in this shootout will probably make for a much better purchase easily.
  
  




*iBasso D-ZERO*
 Build Quality: ●●●●● (Simplicity and well fabricated)
 Power: ●●●●● (Second most powerful)
 Power Drop: 1.4%
 Output Impedance:  ●●●●● (0.5 3Ω)
 Portability: ●●●●○ (Small)
 Speed: ●●●●○ (decent speed, slightly slow on attack)
 Transparency: ●●●◎○ (A little short in depth)
 Soundstage: ●●●●◎ (Good)
 Coloration / Neutrality: ●●●●○ (Clean with a fainted sense of warm. Bass rolls off with low impedance load)
 EMI: ●●●●◎ (very low but detectable)
 Hissing: ●●●●● (dead silence)
 Remark:  Intended as the ‘FiiO E7 Killer’, D-zero does offer a better sound than the former.  But that should be expected since it is >$20 more expensive than E7 and offer less features. By itself, D-zero is decently well rounded. Used as USB DAC, it can get slightly brighter but shouldn’t be a big problem as long as it isn’t paired with an already bright sounding headphone. The sub-bass (<100Hz) however does roll-off with low impedance load (-3.5dB with 16ohm load), indicating that the use of output capacitors with too small of capacitance. It would have been a great amp/DAC choice and a true E7 killer if it is under $100. But given D-ZERO cost up to $125 shipped from iBasso, it is too close to the better sounding and feature-rich E17 ($140 shipped) to have any comfort. As a pure amp, it also doesn’t offer any advantage over its older sibling, the T3 or the cheaper FiiO E11. As an USB DAC however, D-ZERO offers a good, clean sound, which is where D-ZERO’s true value is, especially since the line-in (AUX-in) also double as a line-out when D-ZERO is used as USB DAC. Overall, the asking price put D-ZERO in an awkward place where is it a bit too expensive to compared to the cheaper stuff yet it is not good enough to compare to the more expensive stuff. Even so, it still makes Total BitHead looks totally over-priced and out-dated.
  
  




*iBasso T3*
 Build Quality: ●●●●○ (Decent but can be better)
 Power: ●●●●● (Most powerful)
 Power Drop: 0%
 Output Impedance:  ●●●●● (0.5 Ω)
 Portability: ●●●●◎ (Ultra-portable)
 Speed: ●●●●◎ (Good, missing just a tiny bit of the deep kick)
 Transparency: ●●●●◎ (Good)
 Soundstage: ●●●●○ (decent)
 Coloration / Neutrality: ●●●●◎ (Mostly neutral with slight brightness and a sense of leanness)
 EMI: ●●●●◎ (very low but detectable)
 Hissing: ●●●●◎ (Very minor, almost inaudible))
 Remark:  One of the slimmest of the batch yet offers really solid power (in fact, highest into a 47ohm load used in testing and most consistent into a 25.5ohm load). T3 can sound a bit lean and sterile for those who are looking to add weight and body to their music by amping, but technically it is still very good. As an ultra-portable, there is really not much to complain about with such a good performance.
  
  




*iBasso T5*
 Build Quality: ●●●○○ (slight disappointment)
 Power: ●●●●◎ (Decently powerful)
 Power Drop: 8.7%
 Output Impedance:  ●●●●○ (2.7 Ω)
 Portability: ●●●●◎ (Ultra-portable)
 Speed: ●●●●○ (Softer edge seems to be a balanced ground specialty)
 Transparency: ●●●●● (well rendering of depth)
 Soundstage: ●●●●○ (Decent, but still a little short in width)
 Coloration / Neutrality: ●●●●◎ (Mostly neutral with a unique smoothness of balanced ground)
 EMI: ●●●●● (dead silence)
 Hissing: ●●●●◎ (Very minor, almost inaudible)
 Remark: T5 is supposed to be the better T3 – in some way it is, but in other ways it isn’t. On the plus side, T5 has BTL ground, a type of active balanced ground similar to that used on many Meier Audio’s amp. It gives benefit of a balanced setup without the need to recable your headphone. It isn’t as good sounding as Meier Audio StepDance, but iBasso has done a great job on packing such a complex implementation into such a tiny package while still maintain a really good SQ. While it might not have the highest output to the 47ohm test load, it can still get really loud with good power into more difficult load. It would have been the perfect ultra-portable if not for some major flaws.
  
 Now on the bad side of things – the build quality of T5 is rather mediocre. First, the rubber coating around the zinc alloy frame chipped almost as soon as I start using it. Second, the battery ballooned up and failed within a short few months. Third, the amp has really loud click-and-pop during startup and shutdown. Lastly, for an ultra-portable designed mainly for IEM, the output impedance is slightly on the higher side. As my fourth iBasso’s amps, T5 also has the worst build quality of them all. I wonder if iBasso’s intension to pack everything into such a small package has ended up costing them to cut corner in build quality. Without saying, I am disappointed.
  
[Update 28 Sept. 2013] iBasso has responded to user's email that T5 is unable to recharge and operate at the same time, despite failing to mention such a crucial information on its website or in the manual. It is also a much further issue that some T5 owner had reported that they T5 can be used when recharged, while a few also reported battery failure. For these questionable build quality issues, *I strongly advise against buying an T5*.
  
  




*JDS Labs C421 – AD8620*
 Build Quality: ●●●●◎ (Very good)
 Power: ●●◎○○ (Weakest of the batch)
 Power Drop: 21%
 Output Impedance:  ●◎○○○ (10.7 Ω)
 Portability: ●●○○○ (Full size)
 Speed: ●●●●● (Almost as good as O2)
 Transparency: ●●●●● (Will give it half a mark more if I can)
 Soundstage: ●●●●◎ (Good)
 Coloration / Neutrality: ●●●●● (Almost as good as O2, almost)
 EMI: ●●●●● (dead silence)
 Hissing: ●●●●● (dead silence)
 Remark: C421 with AD8620 is by far the best sounding amp after O2 in the batch. Sonically there is nothing bad to speak of – clean, neutral, well balanced and specious. It goes particularly well with IEM, especially Etymotic ER4S, as it can render depth in the most spectacular way. The JDS signature bass boost also helps a lot. Measurement wise, it is almost flawless as well – except in one particular area, the high output impedance, which also makes it to have the worst power delivery into a low impedance load of all the amps in review. It still has enough, but obviously it could have been a lot better. High output impedance generally give two problems: first, low electronic dampening. Second, coloration to the headphone. The good news is, coloration doesn’t seem to be a problem for C421 as it still measured perfectly flat with low impedance IEM. Of course, you still won’t get much dampening out of it. Without the high output impedance, this would have been the best $200 amp around, both sonically and technically. 
  
  




*JDS Labs C421 – OPA2227*
 Build Quality: ●●●●◎ (Very good)
 Power: ●●◎○○ (Weakest of the batch)
 Power Drop: 21%
 Output Impedance:  ●◎○○○ (10.8 Ω)
 Portability: ●●○○○ (Full size)
 Speed: ●●●●● (Almost as good as O2)
 Transparency: ●●●●○ (decent)
 Soundstage: ●●●●◎ (Really good, but lack a sense of openness)
 Coloration / Neutrality: ●●●●◎ (Really good, but slightly forwarded)
 EMI: ●●●●● (dead silence)
 Hissing: ●●●●● (dead silence)
 Remark: C421 with OPA2227 shares almost all the good and bad of C421-AD8620. Afterall, the two are the same except for the opamp. In comparison, OPA2227 offers a richer, more upfront presentation over the higher resolution on sonic space of AD8620. Musicality over precision, if you like. Beyond  that, C421 with OPA2227 is still a very capable amp.
  
  




*JDS Labs C5*
 Build Quality: ●●●●● (Excellent)
 Power: ●●●●◎ (Decent)
 Power Drop: 14%
 Output Impedance:  ●●●●◎ (1.8 Ω)
 Portability: ●●○○○ (Full size)
 Speed: ●●●●● (Good)
 Transparency: ●●●●◎ (Decent)
 Soundstage: ●●●●○ (Slight lack in width)
 Coloration / Neutrality: ●●●●● (Almost as good as O2, almost)
 EMI: ●●●●● (dead silence)
 Hissing: ●●●●● (dead silence)
 Remark: In a sense, C5 is the C421-evolved. It addresses some of C421 technical issueses such as high output impedance and the subsequent low power delivery. While C5 is still not the most powerful amp around, it now has much better power delivery and thus more versitile to handle different type of loads. Sonically, it remains top notch but not neccesery better sounding when compared to its elder sibiling, the C421-AD8620. The one area theat C5 is noticeably weaker is on its soundstage. Perhaps it is the lingering character of OPA2227, C5's soundstage is still too overly focus in the center - not just compare to C421-AD8620, but UHA-4 as well. Depth is however slightly better. Overall a technically better amp than C421 and still a top-tier, but if you like your C421 with yout current headphone, then there is no hurry to get the C5.
  
  




*JDS Labs Objective 2*
 Build Quality: ●●●●◎ (Very good)
 Power: ●●●●● (Plenty)
 Power Drop: 0.6%
 Output Impedance:  ●●●●◎ (1.1 Ω)
 Portability: ◎○○○○ (More transportable than portable)
 Speed: ●●●●● (reference)
 Transparency: ●●●●● (reference)
 Soundstage: ●●●●● (reference)
 Coloration / Neutrality: ●●●●● (Perfectly colorless)
 EMI: ●●●●◎ (very low but detectable)
 Hissing: ●●●●● (dead silence)
 Remark: Designed via measurement, O2 is the reference amp of the whole shootout and offers the best SQ subjectively and objectively. It has the best blend of everything, as far as sound being the only concern. But as an amp designed solely to achieve maximum SQ, the practicality side of the amp does suffered a bit. First, the size and weight are closer to a transportable rather than a portable amp. Second, the use of non-standard power supply / charger makes it much less viable as a traveler choice. In fact, it is the only other amp besides Total BitHead (which isn’t rechargeable anyway) that doesn’t take an USB connection for power / recharge. The less-than-easily accessible batteries compartment also means that, even when using regular non-rechargeable 9V when travelling, you still need to carry a screw driver around. Overall, O2 is more like a desktop amp that can go mobile, rather than a truly portable amp in spirit.
  
  
  




*Lear FSM-01*
 Build Quality: ●●●●○ (Decent but can be better)
 Power: ●●●●◎ (Decently powerful)
 Power Drop: 4.2%
 Output Impedance:  ●●●●● (0.55Ω)
 Portability: ●●◎○○ (Almost full size)
 Speed: ●●●◎○ (Not bad, but does feel a little slower than it should)
 Transparency:  ●●●●◎ (Good depth rendering)
 Soundstage: ●●●◎○ (Not bad, but not particularly wide too)
 Coloration / Neutrality: ●●●●◎ (Very clean on the slightly leaner sounding side)
 EMI: ●○○○○ (Really bad)
 Hissing: ●●◎○○ (Rather bad, worsen with higher gain)
 Remark: FSM-01 is a good sounding amp with some problem of its own. Before O2, this would have been one of the most transparent amps under $150. The main issues with FSM-01 are the high level of hiss and non-resistant to EMI, which makes it a less practical option these days when many use smartphone as source. With O2 only costing less than $15 more, FSM-01 just doesn’t seem that attractive anymore.
  
  




*Leckerton Audio UHA-4 with OPA209*
 Build Quality: ●●●●● (Excellent)
 Power: ●●●●● (Plenty)
 Power Drop: 1.6%
 Output Impedance:  ●●●●● (0.1 Ω)
 Portability: ●●●●○ (Slim but wide)
 Speed: ●●●●● (Excellent)
 Transparency: ●●●●◎ (Good)
 Soundstage: ●●●●◎ (Good)
 Coloration / Neutrality: ●●●●● (Really neutral, somewhere between the two C421)
 EMI: ●●●●○ (Low)
 Hissing: ●●●●● (dead silence)
 Remark: UHA-4 with OPA209 is the most expensive amp of the batch (and in fact cost over $200 when shipping is included) but also has the best balance between subjective sound, objective measurement as well as real world practicality. Sonic wise, it is a close blend between C421-AD8620 and C421-OPA2227, with some of the detail and resolution of the former and the richness of the later while still remains mostly neutral and transparent. I still prefer C421-AD8620 over UHA-4 but it is a really close call. The only part of UHA-4 that doesn’t sound quite as perfect is its overall resolution and rendering of space. It is really good, but not great. Measurement wise, UHA-4 is almost as good as O2 in every area. Size and weight wise, UHA-4 is slim and easy to carry around. The USB DAC itself is really good as well. Not ObjectDAC level but definitely gives E17 a good run for its money even though it is just a good old 16/44.1 USB DAC. Oh, there is also a crossfeed if you need it. In many ways, UHA-4 reminds me of my trusty Meier Audio 3MOVE, but in a much smaller package. If you must spend $200 for an amp/DAC with the best combination of sound quality and functionality, this will be the one to get.
  
  
  
*[Ranking]*
  

JDS Labs Objective 2
JDS Labs C421-AD8620 / Leckerton Audio UHA-4(OPA209) / *JDS Labs C5*
JDS Labs C421-OPA2227 / FiiO E12
iBasso T5
Lear FSM-01 / Fred_fred_2004’s 3 Channels Headphone Amp
FiiO E17 Alpen / iBasso T3 / FiiO E11
iBasso D-ZERO / JDS Labs cmoyBB v2.02 / C&C BH
digZoid ZO2.3 / Electric Avenues PA2V2 / FiiO E07K
FiiO E6 / FiiO E02i
FiiO E7 / SoundMAGIC A10
HeadRoom Total BitHead / HeadRoom Total AirHead
  
 Note: Sub-$100 amps are included but grayed out.
  
  
*[Afterthought]*

Again, amps are all volume matched using a SPL meter during the review.
No amp is perfect. Best sounding amp doesn’t equal to the most practical amp. You’ll need to decide what feature is most important to you and go from there.
As far as sound quality being the _*only* _concern, #1 to 3 will be what I'll refer as top-tier portable amp with little to no sonic flaw. The 5~7 will be second tier with more pros than cons. 8 and below are entry level with mix result, depend largely on how you use them. T5 is more of an in-between class.
Big thanks to JDS Labs for the C421-OPA2227 loan unit.
  
  
...Continue to read the Sub-$100 Amps Shootout here.


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## tzjin

Great comparison! I've been waiting awhile for this one.


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## ClieOS

I certainly took me a while to finish it. I think I RMAA all the amps at least 5 times


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## tzjin

Quote: 





clieos said:


> I certainly took me a while to finish it. I think I RMAA all the amps at least 5 times


 
   
  Good man! Though now you've really got me torn between the C421 and the UHA4


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## wullymc

thanks for your impressions Clieos
   
  I am searching for an <$200 amp and I think you've just helped make up my mind.
   
  Take care


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## Evshrug

Much much props for all your hard work! Funny, from my reading it seems the top performers from the sub-$100 category are the most suitable for an IEM listening situation, in addition to being great bargains. I think I'm going to sell my FiiO E5 bundled with my AD700 headphones, and pick up a FiiO E11 for general use with my Ety ER*6i and AKG Q701 headphones until the desktop O2 amp with DAC is released. I would never have thought the E11 was a great contender without your hard work ClieOS, and I would never have heard about many of these other amps such as fred_fred_2004's. The latter amp could use a more catchy name, don't you think?


----------



## Leobrioschi

Well i'm looking for a Dac/Usb under 200 dollars shipped. I was thinking about thee iBasso d2+ boa, do you guys have any suggestion? (169 + 22 shipping, i'm not in USA anyway)


----------



## tzjin

I would personally go for the UHA-4. From the comparison and impressions before, it seems pretty spectacular.


----------



## JamesFiiO

Great job !  just a little question about the ranking of the Portability, should have better description for that based on the size.


----------



## ClieOS

jamesfiio said:


> Great job !  just a little question about the ranking of the Portability, should have better description for that based on the size.




I can put actual measurement of 3 dimensional size as well as weight to them. Will add those info in later.


----------



## esuhgb

great comparison, i have the T5 and agree that the build is rather poor, the e7 is much better in that regard. It does sound good tho. But has quite an audible hiss with my ie80's. Sound quality wise which is better the T5 or the UHA-4?


----------



## ClieOS

esuhgb said:


> great comparison, i have the T5 and agree that the build is rather poor, the e7 is much better in that regard. It does sound good tho. But has quite an audible hiss with my ie80's. Sound quality wise which is better the T5 or the UHA-4?




UHA-4 wins, hand down.

I would have been happier even if T5 is twice as large as long as it has better build quality.


----------



## kenman345

I gotta take this list with a grain of salt. I noticed a hiss with the JDS Labs C421 - OPA 2227 when I had it for a few days. I also noticed a bit of EMI from my iPod on top of it. I did happen to be testing the latest production components, which models did you test?


----------



## ClieOS

EMI from iPod? I don't realize iPod is capable of radio wave emission (of significant level) at all. Are you sure it isn't the noise from some other components? For example, microdrive from older iPod, etc. I could understand if it is an iPhone cause those are known to be real bad with EMI (I am using a Samsung for testing, btw). Also, what headphone you were using at the time? I tested with SE530, which is notorious for picking up hiss. But I am certain there are worst out there. Even so, wait till you hear the FSM-01 before you know what counts as really bad hissing - it is like having two mosquitos flying inside your ears.

My C421 are all current models btw.


----------



## kenman345

I thought EMI was Electromagnetic interference, which comes from all electronic devices. It was my iPod Classic. Tested it as well with my iPod Video. Same thing happened. I was testing the latest components that start shipping this month from JDS Labs. Apparently they changed a few things inside. Anyways, I couldn't find the time to do the review so I sent it back, unfortunately. 
   
  EDIT: Please keep in mind I'm using some pretty sensitive CIEM's....
  Quote: 





clieos said:


> EMI from iPod? I don't realize iPod is capable of radio wave emission (of significant level) at all. Are you sure it isn't the noise from some other components? For example, microdrive from older iPod, etc. I could understand if it is an iPhone cause those are known to be real bad with EMI (I am using a Samsung for testing, btw). Also, what headphone you were using at the time? I tested with SE530, which is notorious for picking up hiss. But I am certain there are worst out there. Even so, wait till you hear the FSM-01 before you know what counts as really bad hissing - it is like having two mosquitos flying inside your ears.
> My C421 are all current models btw.


----------



## ShenaRingo326

thanks for a very informative review!! i'm still trying to learn about the technical details of how source/amp/headphones work together so this has been very helpful!
   
  question.. given that i have certain IEM/headphones/earbuds and their specs, how should i choose an amp that has good synergy with it, using the specs/ratings that you've listed here?
   
  thanks!


----------



## NimbleTurtle

Great review! I enjoyed it.


----------



## ClieOS

kenman345 said:


> I thought EMI was Electromagnetic interference, which comes from all electronic devices. It was my iPod Classic. Tested it as well with my iPod Video. Same thing happened. I was testing the latest components that start shipping this month from JDS Labs. Apparently they changed a few things inside. Anyways, I couldn't find the time to do the review so I sent it back, unfortunately.
> 
> EDIT: Please keep in mind I'm using some pretty sensitive CIEM's....




Yes, all electronic has some EMI, that's why I say 'of significant' as you can hardly find any typical strong EMI source in household than your cellphone (well, except for the microware). Maybe is because of your CIEM that you can pick up hiss and EMI more easily? Can't say for sure.




shenaringo326 said:


> .. given that i have certain IEM/headphones/earbuds and their specs, how should i choose an amp that has good synergy with it, using the specs/ratings that you've listed here?




As far as synergy is concerned, I tend to look for the opposite of each gear, meaning I am trying more to compensate gears rather than trying to compliment. For example, the great rendering of depth on C421-AD8620 pairs really well with IEM, which generally isn't good in this area. The more upfront C421-OPA2227 might go well with full size because they don't lack depth, but could use more richness.

However, synergy is really more of an issue for sub-$100 amps really, as many of the sub-$200 amps reviewed here have much less 'flavor' and sounds quite neutral overall. The difference are much less significant. Then again, less significant is probably still too significant in the ears of audiophiles.


----------



## shigzeo

Here is probably the proof in the pudding that ClieOS is the most thorough comparative amp reviewer on headfi. It's not just price and wishful thinking; it's observed, enjoyed, corroborated evidence. Well done.


----------



## putente

Another great shootout and a nice read! Cheers...


----------



## ClieOS

Thanks for the comments, guys. As great and fun to play around portable amps, it is unlikely I'll continue with another amps shootout as this is getting kind of out of control for me. I think I almost double my yearly spending since I decided to do amp shootout at late last year. It has been fun but I'll stick back to IEM and earbuds for now.


----------



## kenman345

I was really hoping you would do a sub-$500 shootout. Maybe you can get loaners from the companies or other members, I bet they'd be happy to loan them to you.
  Quote: 





clieos said:


> Thanks for the comments, guys. As great and fun to play around portable amps, it is unlikely I'll continue with another amps shootout as this is getting kind of out of control for me. I think I almost double my yearly spending since I decided to do amp shootout at late last year. It has been fun but I'll stick back to IEM and earbuds for now.


----------



## putente

Quote: 





clieos said:


> Thanks for the comments, guys. As great and fun to play around portable amps, it is unlikely I'll continue with another amps shootout as this is getting kind of out of control for me. I think I almost double my yearly spending since I decided to do amp shootout at late last year. It has been fun but I'll stick back to IEM and earbuds for now.


 
   
   
  That seems a sensible and wise decision! Obviously, everyone would like to see more of these shootouts you do so well, but maybe you can try loaners as suggested above. Even so, you already done a nice job with the two shootouts you did. Personally, I'm happy as it is, as 200$ is my budget for a new portable amp...


----------



## Armaegis

Quote: 





clieos said:


> ...this is getting kind of out of control for me. I think I almost double my yearly spending ...


 
   
  Welcome to headfi, sorry about the... waitaminnit...


----------



## putente

Quote: 





armaegis said:


> Welcome to headfi, sorry about the... waitaminnit...


 
   
  LOL
  That's a sure fate around here...


----------



## ClieOS

Oh, I'll still review >$200 amps when I have the chance, but it just not going to be in a shootout fashion since that requires more than a handful of amps to make sense. Loaner is a valid idea, but I am half a world away from most amp makers and I don't want to bear the risk of having expensive amps shipping across the world and the responsibility of getting taxed or even worst, lost during shipping. It is just impractical in the long run.


----------



## kenman345

Moving to the US might be cheaper in the long run.....
  Quote: 





clieos said:


> Oh, I'll still review >$200 amps when I have the chance, but it just not going to be in a shootout fashion since that requires more than a handful of amps to make sense. Loaner is a valid idea, but I am half a world away from most amp makers and I don't want to bear the risk of having expensive amps shipping across the world and the responsibility of getting taxed or even worst, lost during shipping. It is just impractical in the long run.


----------



## ClieOS

I was in NY state for 3 years as an undergraduate. Been there, done that


----------



## thegunner100

Great comparison! Wish you posted this before I bought my E17 but so far i love it! I think you should mention that the E17 can be used as a stand-alone dac for those with desktop amps.


----------



## ClieOS

thegunner100 said:


> ... I think you should mention that the E17 can be used as a stand-alone dac for those with desktop amps.




Added to shootout. Thanks.


----------



## Mutnat

Very cool!  I'm happy to own the #3 on your list, but I'm still very curious to one day hear the two tied for #2.  Had I known about the UHA-4 when I ordered my C421, I would have had an even more difficult decision.
   
  PS speaking of synnergy and another amp/dac that's in the in middle of your list, I discovered recently that the D-Zero has very good synnergy when used as a DAC and amp together, with the pair of M-Audio Q40's I keep at work.  I've never heard them sound so good!


----------



## imackler

Thanks for all the hard work! Now let's get this things stuck to the top like the sub-100!


----------



## clone1008

Very nice write up...Thanks


----------



## mosshorn

Looks great, and thanks again for the recommendation of the C421. I'm glad to see your thoughts matched it perfectly, and I love it


----------



## ClieOS

Thanks for the comments, guys. I added another afterthought to clarify how I classify them into top, second, and entry tier.


----------



## Kaizer-J

Very helpful comparison, thanks for taking the time to write it!

ClieOS if you don't mind me asking, how well does the iBasso T5 match up with the RE262? Or would I be much better off by going straight for Stepdance + RE262? I'm wondering if there are any significant difference between these two setups, SQ wise.

Regards,
Kaizer


----------



## ClieOS

The thing about active balanced ground seem to be their ability to pair well with just about any headphone, even though they might not be the absolute best in synergy. That being said, T5 does go well with RE262. But I will say Stepdance is that much better than T5 for overall improvement that I think it is worth paying the extra.


----------



## 336952

Where does the T3 fall on this list. Don't see it.


----------



## ClieOS

red46123 said:


> Where does the T3 fall on this list. Don't see it.




It is there, you just need to read it more carefully.


----------



## phantompersona

Good job on making this! i want to replace my Fiio E6(paired up with Sansa Clip Zip + RE262), and it looks like the O2 would be the best of the bunch based on sound quality alone but then again I also want something that is portable...decisions decisions decisions..... will you be updating this list with the upcoming Fiio E12? And thanks again for this awesome shootout of amps.


----------



## ClieOS

As long as E12 is priced as expected (under $200), it will be added to the list.


----------



## Evshrug

That will be awesome [the E12 review].
I've been trying to do my own research to form my own opinion for an amp to share between my different headphones ranging from an ER*6i to an AKG Q701, mostly because people throw out all kind of suggestions for the Q. 
I'm leery about spending +200 on a tube/solid-state amp when I already felt so pleased just swapping my AD700 for the Q701 in my current portable setup (iPod > L11 > E5 > headphone), from what I understand great synergy comes from a good supply of current. I would like an O2, but obviously a cheaper, more portable than transportable option is preferred. Your reviews are the only ones I've seen where the output resistance is measured, so I'm happy narrowing my search to your results.
Though Fred_Fred_2004's amp reviewed here is attractive (along with the O2), the FiiO E11 just sounds like the all-around most transparent while being portable (and relatively inexpensive, considering the performance difference with going even all-out). I'm happy waiting to read if the E12 is a compelling upgrade.

Thanks again so much for your intense effort, you are like the one-man headphone equivalent to DPReview, a camera review site that recently gained sponsorship from Amazon.


----------



## ClieOS

evshrug said:


> ...Your reviews are the only ones I've seen where the output resistance is measured, so I'm happy narrowing my search to your results.
> 
> ...
> Thanks again so much for your intense effort, you are like the one-man headphone equivalent to DPReview, a camera review site that recently gained sponsorship from Amazon.




If I were using full size most of the time, I am probably not going to bother with output impedance that much. But given I am pretty dedicated IEM user and how popular IEM has became, I just thought that will be an useful information for consideration... Anyway, where can I get a sponsorship from Amazon?


----------



## 336952

Quote: 





clieos said:


> It is there, you just need to read it more carefully.


 

 My Apologies. I see it now.


----------



## Evshrug

clieos said:


> If I were using full size most of the time, I am probably not going to bother with output impedance that much. But given I am pretty dedicated IEM user and how popular IEM has became, I just thought that will be an useful information for consideration... Anyway, where can I get a sponsorship from Amazon?



I'm sure if you copy/pasted your IEM reviews into Amazon and asked for us Head-Fi'ers to vote your review as helpful, that would at least get you into the Vine program... But I bet there is a better, more direct way. You could just say you have reviewed a library of IEMs on head-Fi, here is a link to my threads and all the people who thanked me for my info & added to my total thread views, and Amazon should consider adding you as an asset to their portable audio sales efforts.

About my amp consideration, I do use my Etymotic IEMs, and I figured if an amp supplies enough current for a low Ohm headphone it should do well for a 62 Ohm full size. I might've just stuck with my E5 to be honest, except my E5 has it's bass boost stuck on, the amp has to almost max it's power output to get to a normal listening volume, and of course new stuff is cool.


----------



## RingingEars

Quote: 





clieos said:


> EMI from iPod? I don't realize iPod is capable of radio wave emission (of significant level) at all. Are you sure it isn't the noise from some other components? For example, microdrive from older iPod, etc. I could understand if it is an iPhone cause those are known to be real bad with EMI (I am using a Samsung for testing, btw). Also, what headphone you were using at the time? I tested with SE530, which is notorious for picking up hiss. But I am certain there are worst out there. Even so, wait till you hear the FSM-01 before you know what counts as really bad hissing - it is like having two mosquitos flying inside your ears.
> My C421 are all current models btw.


 

 They are.
  I had signicant EMI using the Alpen with a 4G Ipod touch. Loved the amp/DAC, but that was the main reason I sold it. If using WiFi with the Alpen I would get a low level intermittent buzz/squeal.


----------



## ClieOS

ringingears said:


> They are.
> I had signicant EMI using the Alpen with a 4G Ipod touch. Loved the amp/DAC, but that was the main reason I sold it. If using WiFi with the Alpen I would get a low level intermittent buzz/squeal.




Obviously if that's the case, Apple will have to answer for the problem. Since I am not much of an Apple user, I can't test for them. However, I am still not convince it is EMI in the iPod case but rather a case of blackground noise. Wifi is another matter of its own. It runs in a much higher band (GHz) than cellphone (MHz) but often in very intense manner in short distance in order to carry large amount of data. This means anything in close distance will get interference even with shielding. The amp is literally being bombarded by microwave.


----------



## RingingEars

Quote: 





clieos said:


> Obviously if that's the case, Apple will have to answer for the problem.


 
   
  ClieOS.
  I'm not sure how it's Apples fault... Or Fiio's really. I think it's just the nature of the beast.
  I never get/got the interference when running the Ipod alone and I listen to Pandora more than my own files. With the amp hooked up to the ipod I got interference when WiFi was on, but never got it when it was off. So the ipod must have some sort of shielding and I assume that is by design being that WiFi is part of the attraction to the device.
  Now like I said I don't think it's Fiio's fault either and I imagine that there would be some level of interference with any amp, amp/DAC unless this was specifically addressed in the engineering of the device, which, these manufactures should look into since streaming is here to stay and only getting more popular.


----------



## ClieOS

No, I am not talking about Wifi, but rather the possible EMI issue from your average, no-wifi iPod. While I am far from owning a big number of DAP, none from my collection has EMI issue that I am aware of. Why would a consumer grade DAP emits that much EMI is quite beyond me.


----------



## RingingEars

Quote: 





clieos said:


> No, I am not talking about Wifi, but rather the possible EMI issue from your average, no-wifi iPod. While I am far from owning a big number of DAP, none from my collection has EMI issue that I am aware of. Why would a consumer grade DAP emits that much EMI is quite beyond me.


 
  You're right I don't think it would(DAPs emitting EMI)So this case would be more an RF problem than EMI(I was using EMI out of context and should have stated RF)
  But on the WiFi issue it had to be, in my particular case, a receiving issue as opposed to a transmitting issue because my Fubar 2 MKII sits literally 6" away from my WiFi router and when I had the Fiio hooked up to my computer, at the same distance, running DAC duty I had no issues with it so it had to be the Fiio/Ipod just not playing nice when WiFi was enabled. It would be nice to see portable amp amp/DAC manufactures address this issue if at all possible...


----------



## elmura

I noted that you included models from the sub $100 comparison. What method did you use to rank them  if they weren't tested at the same time? As RMAA is quite sensitive to slightly different testing conditions, causing potentially erroneous results.


----------



## ClieOS

elmura said:


> I noted that you included models from the sub $100 comparison. What method did you use to rank them  if they weren't tested at the same time? As RMAA is quite sensitive to slightly different testing conditions, causing potentially erroneous results.




I didn't mention it but I did remeasure a few of the sub-$100 amp in order to compare result - but that is not the point, as RMAA is only used to (1) establish the baseline for comparison. As some measurement (i.e. FR curve) never varies much between measurements, while critical flaws (said any significant anomaly like high level of noise) can be easily spotted. Also, (2) RMAA result doesn't directly affect most of the criteria and how they are rated. This review isn't intended to be an summery of measurement. It is still as much about subjective opinion as it is objective measurement.

I do understand RMAA is prone to error, noise and variation in measurement tools, which is the reason why the review was 2 months overdue and at least 5 different RMAA tests were made on all the amps to reach some consistent in result that I can conformable use for comparison. The idea is to see the 'trend', but not the individual result. It is not perfect, but I really can't afford any haif-decent oscilloscope or AP audio analyzer in this life time.


----------



## AstralStorm

Care to post battery life figures for the amps?


----------



## ClieOS

astralstorm said:


> Care to post battery life figures for the amps?




I will add the official number though I don't think that will be much helpful. Precise measurement will take forever to complete so I am not going to do it, especially since some of the amp (PA2V2, HeadRoom, etc) can run for days on end. But the good news is as far as I can tell, all the official number are pretty close to real battery life.


----------



## Evshrug

So, basically, most will last for a few listening sessions, enough that you'll lose track of how much battery is left and have to charge them up at some point anyway? Oh well. On a similar note, I like the recent trend of companies to report their battery life conservatively (except smartphones).


----------



## BullHorn

This thread makes the O2 very attractive to me. 
   
  What I really wonder is how would Fred_fred_2004's 3-channel rechargeble cMoy would fair in the sub-$200 shootout. He sells the rechargeable one for a $100-110 which is the same as the OP reviewed in the sub-$100 except it's rechargeable and comes in a flask-looking metallic case.
   

   
  I would love to hear the OP's opinion. Thanks!


----------



## elmura

I can respond to that. They're identical except for the inclusion of a rechargeable battery, power supply, power socket, and a better case. No sound quality difference. The OP already highlighted that he ranked the Fred-Fred 3channel unit equal 5th in the under $200 category. Refer to rankings on pg1


----------



## ClieOS

Yep, judging from the picture of internal circuit, the rechargeable and non-rechargeable version's amp section should be the same.


----------



## OPTiK

I have to say, the O2 amp + odac combo is pretty awesome. I use it with my JH16s and it really has brought some sonic awesomeness to my music. The thing about the O2 amp is that its dead silent, and without any gain resistors I can actually play around with the volume knob! I had the e17 for a bit, but there was something about it that I didn't like... It felt like the bass leaked into the mid range. Either way, my DIY O2 amp is sticking around for a long time!


----------



## Mrniceguy633

Hey guys. I'm new to this world of headphone amps. Appreciate these kind of posts, so thank you for that and job well done. Noob question: under the O2s speed, transparency, and sound stage you said "reference". What does that mean as far as speed, transparency, and soundstage goes?


----------



## ClieOS

It means O2 is the reference for other to compare to. In simpler terms, O2 is the best in the categories.


----------



## Mrniceguy633

So for speed, the E17 is "tiny bit softer in kick but really good overall" in comparison to the O2. Ok, that makes sense. Thanks for taking the time to answer


----------



## AstralStorm

Another fun observation of yours truly:
   
  FiiO  E17 is borderline unstable with harder loads like certain BA IEMs including Brainwavz B2 and SE-5, producing some distortion that's audible. (-60 dB?) We're talking sines > 16kHz at -6 dB, so it's definitely not clipping.
   
  Funny thing, E7 doesn't have this issue and I haven't spotted it before connecting SE-5 and B2 to the E17 (after fixing the jack - same result also via L7 connector, so I didn't mess up). I wasn't sure what I was hearing, so I connected a spectrum analyzer. It's clearly subharmonic distortion suggesting instability.
   
  Sorry I didn't catch it earlier - I didn't have headphones that are sensitive enough at the highest end. Seems DT1350 and GR07 just don't expose this flaw.


----------



## Evshrug

What is a "BA" IEM?
Drat all the tube-amp reviews, they almost unanimously are preferred in comparison to SS amps by those that own them, but I haven't seen any measurements or point-by-point ratings as ClieOS has done here. An O2 or the top amps from the sub-$100 amp thread seem to make the most sense to me, but I mainly (really only) need an amp for my AKG Q701, and most people seem to suggest exotic tube amps for it.
Which direction is earth?


----------



## sygyzy

BA stands for Balance Armature. This is in contrast to the other IEM design which uses dynamic drivers.


----------



## AstralStorm

It might be that balanced armatures present more inductive load which destabilizes E17. Anyway, that is a pretty bad mark against this amp. Pity.
  GND is available as the "ring" in the minijack.


----------



## Slickman

I'm getting the C421 because it has bass boost, if the O2 had bass boost I would get that but it doesn't,


----------



## ClieOS

evshrug said:


> What is a "BA" IEM?
> Drat all the tube-amp reviews, they almost unanimously are preferred in comparison to SS amps by those that own them, but I haven't seen any measurements or point-by-point ratings as ClieOS has done here. An O2 or the top amps from the sub-$100 amp thread seem to make the most sense to me, but I mainly (really only) need an amp for my AKG Q701, and most people seem to suggest exotic tube amps for it.
> Which direction is earth?




Tube amp just generally measure badly when compared to solid state stuff, so most just doesn't care to do it. Of course that is in the nature of tube amp as they are much more noisy due to how they operate, but that doesn't mean they'll sound bad. I actually have a portable tube amp (from a Chinese company) with me right now and will write a review on it, probably next week. I can imagine a warmish tube amp can go really well with Q701 myself.



astralstorm said:


> It might be that balanced armatures present more inductive load which destabilizes E17. Anyway, that is a pretty bad mark against this amp. Pity.
> GND is available as the "ring" in the minijack.




I measured my E17 and noticed some odd harmonic distortion with B2 as well (much less with CX300). But they are well under -70dB (most are under -80dB) and still presents less than 0.1% of total distortion. I don't see a big problem there myself.


----------



## Evshrug

ClieOS,
Yes, it is this nature of a tube amp that makes it unpredictable for someone with zero experience listening to tubes [sic]. Since the Q701 isn't a very sensitive headphone, the hiss is far less of a problem than with sensitive IEMs, but... I don't have a clue what the positive side is of that trade off.

I realize that an amp ill-suited for sensitive IEMs may be beyond the scope of your reviews, but if you _have_ one (they make _portable_ tube amps?!?), a review of the characteristics listed here in comparison to your reference O2 amp would clear so much mystery for me! Who makes your tube amp, Bravo?

Astral,
Thank you for clearing that up for me. I was only aware of dynamic, electrostatic, and orthodontic type drivers.


----------



## ClieOS

The portable tube amp I have with me now is made by a Chinese company called, well, 'Tube Amp'. BL-2 to be the exact model name.







There is always something magical about a growing vacuum tube.


----------



## Evshrug

Oooooh...

The tube amps I was looking at were the little dot I+:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/barbutti/3233988718/
And this one:
http://www.amazon.com/Bravo-12AU7-Tube-Headphone-Amplifier/dp/B007VF69GQ

If your tube amp sounds pleasant and is available for purchase in the USA, I might have to put it on my shortlist as well.


----------



## putente

Quote: 





clieos said:


> The portable tube amp I have with me now is made by a Chinese company called, well, 'Tube Amp'. BL-2 to be the exact model name.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  That's true! And that amp looks good! How's the sound and price? I can't seem to find it on eBay, though...


----------



## alphaphoenix

Don't know the specs, but sure looks like an ALO Continental clone.


----------



## ClieOS

putente said:


> That's true! And that amp looks good! How's the sound and price? I can't seem to find it on eBay, though...




Surprisingly analytical and clean for tube amp, though more suitable for high impedance headphone rather than low impedance IEM. 



alphaphoenix said:


> Don't know the specs, but sure looks like an ALO Continental clone.




The company has been making portable tube amp years ahead of ALO, so this isn't a clone at all. The guy behind the company began to develop portable tube amp since 2005, and the first commercial model (BL-1) was released back in 2007.


----------



## alphaphoenix

Interesting.  That's the same year the TTVJ Portable Millett Hybrid came out as well.


----------



## Evshrug

Im detecting another rabbit hole here...

("Through the Looking Glass" Alice in wonderland reference, if you don't know)


----------



## quickboy2014

Great comparison,
  This will help me to find an amp


----------



## ClieOS

alphaphoenix said:


> Interesting.  That's the same year the TTVJ Portable Millett Hybrid came out as well.




... and the plot thicken. 

Not related actually. TTVJ Portable Millett Hybrid is a two tubes design and Tubeamp is always single tube design.


----------



## Armaegis

There was a big stink when the Continental came out too, with claims of copies or people stealing designs blah blah.


----------



## Evshrug

Omg ClieOS changed his avatar???!? He's had one of those spider/tank/children things from the Ghost in the Shell tv anime for YEARS!

Edit: nope, it's just my tired eyes playing tricks on me.


----------



## putente

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Omg ClieOS changed his avatar???!? He's had one of those spider/tank/children things from the Ghost in the Shell tv anime for YEARS!
> Edit: nope, it's just my tired eyes playing tricks on me.


----------



## scarletspider

Quote: 





clieos said:


> Surprisingly analytical and clean for tube amp, though more suitable for high impedance headphone rather than low impedance IEM.
> The company has been making portable tube amp years ahead of ALO, so this isn't a clone at all. The guy behind the company began to develop portable tube amp since 2005, and the first commercial model (BL-1) was released back in 2007.


 
  So is the BL-2  available for sale on any site or forum? I've already found the BL-1 on ebay and another site (BL-1 link).


----------



## clairyvic

Wondering weather I should get the e17 or bassio t3? I need to drive a 50 olm headphone and listen to it at loud levels. I'm not sure what all this jargon means so could someone tell me which has more power and would be better for driving such a headphone. I'm leaning twords the t3 because it has more portibilaty and less hissing from what i've heard.


----------



## ClieOS

It is on Taobao, I believe. But I have not seen it on any international market place.


----------



## Evshrug

I'm thinking I'll just get the FiiO E11. No tubes that wear out, the option of suitably amping a wide variety of headphones, user-replaceable battery, pocket-sized portable... I may be a little biased because I loved my E5 as my first headphone amp. Of course, that's just what I feel is the most practical choice today, I might throw practicality out the window 

What do you think Feiao? E11 or get a tube experiment now and an E12 when that comes out?


----------



## ClieOS

clairyvic said:


> Wondering weather I should get the e17 or bassio t3? I need to drive a 50 olm headphone and listen to it at loud levels. I'm not sure what all this jargon means so could someone tell me which has more power and would be better for driving such a headphone. I'm leaning twords the t3 because it has more portibilaty and less hissing from what i've heard.




If it is full-sized headphone, E17 would be a better choice. Though T3 can deliver quite a bit of current into low impedance load, it is not suitable for high impedance load where voltage swing is more important.


----------



## MadDawg

Quote: 





clairyvic said:


> Wondering weather I should get the e17 or bassio t3? I need to drive a 50 olm headphone and listen to it at loud levels. I'm not sure what all this jargon means so could someone tell me which has more power and would be better for driving such a headphone. I'm leaning twords the t3 because it has more portibilaty and less hissing from what i've heard.


 
   
  Do you need the DAC functionality?  Are you interested in the EQ settings on the E17?  If neither of those are needed then why not the E11?  Save you some $$ and that should have plenty of power for you.


----------



## clairyvic

Don't know what a dac does. The EQ i'm not really interested in. I'm not sure what impedance means or a lot of this stuff means or else I would just look at the stats myself which is why i'm asking you guys.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
   But this headphone has 50 olms impedance, I don't know if that's a lot or a little. I guess I want minimal hissing because a lot of my music has a lot of atmospheric silence and hissing tends to bother me. So for power/lack of hissing what would be the best choice for a 50 olm headphone between the e11, e17, and t3? I don't really care about the money difference. For the sake of conversation lets just pretend they where all the same price, so even if one is just a little bit better despite the price difference I would want to get it.


----------



## MeeHungLowe

Quote: 





clairyvic said:


> Don't know what a dac does. The EQ i'm not really interested in. I'm not sure what impedance means or a lot of this stuff means or else I would just look at the stats myself which is why i'm asking you guys.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  A DAC is used to connect the amp to a PC's USB port so that you bypass the PC's crummy soundcard.  If you aren't going to use your PC, then you don't need it.
   
  I don't know those amps so I'll let someone else comment.


----------



## ClieOS

50 ohm isn't exactly low impedance, but it is very high either. Unless this headphone is ultra-sensitive, I doubt it will be affected by hiss much.


----------



## clairyvic

Anyone else have any thoughts on my amp question?


----------



## Evshrug

50Ohm is kind of in-between low-impedance headphones that need high current ( <32Ohms) and high impedance headphones (>150Ohm) that are best driven with high *voltage*. If you get an amp good at both, you should be ok. I'm pretty sure all of ClieOS' top amp picks will be adaquate; I think the O2 would probably be the best for my 62 Ohm AKG Q701 headphones, but I'm not sure if I want to spend that much for a device of that size.

Edit: I was tired and typed the wrong thing. Edit in bold. Sorry for the confusion.


----------



## clairyvic

Wait so one needs high current and one is best driven by high current? I don't understand that statement. :/


----------



## ClieOS

Basically it goes like this: The higher the impedance of a headphone goes, the more voltage it needs; the lower the impedance of a headphone goes, the more current it needs. Yes, they are opposite of each other. So if everything else is equal, an 8 ohm headphone needs a lot more current than a 80 ohm headphone, while the 80 ohm headphone needs a lot more voltage than an 8 ohm headphone. A good amp should be able to supply both adequately.


----------



## MeeHungLowe

I think one of the challenges for new amp buyers is the difference between high current, high voltage & high gain.  I know it confuses me!  All I know is that low-impedance headphones tend to hiss and sound bad if the amp's gain is too high - but I really don't know why - I'm guessing it is because gain is actually a voltage increase?  And if the amp gain is too high for a low-impedance 'phone, then you can overdrive the 'phone (supply too much voltage) - is that correct?


----------



## clairyvic

What is gain lol? And between the 3 I asked about, which one is best for 50 Olmert headphones?


----------



## ClieOS

For all intended purpose, gain = voltage. Actual the full term should be 'voltage gain'. On most solid state amp, how much current is generally limited by the opamp internal design. Take O2 for an example, the output stage has two opamp (in parallel) to literally double its current output. Sometime, you will see a buffer stage as well (no voltage gain, purely for current output). Some opamp (say AD8397) has a buffer stage built into the chip to output higher current. The typical case is, as long as the load doesn't need more current that what the amp can supply, the effect of current is much less audible to the ears. Voltage on the other hand has much more obvious 'side effect' when you set the gain too high. In fact, most opamp perform best when there is no gain (gain factor of 1). Once you increase the gain, you are actually amplifying the input signal and thus causing noise/distortion (because there is no such thing as a 'perfect amplification'). The higher the gain, the worst it goes. At some point, you will go outside of the chip's spec and noise becomes a problem. For most sensitive IEM, actually an 0~3dB gain is more than enough when you are dealing with iPod's level line-out signal (which is only 0.5Vrms, far shorter from the standard 2Vrms). 

Unlike current, you _can_ control the voltage using the volume knob. With low impedance headphone, the problems are two folds: first, if the gain on the amp is too high, a slight turn on volume knob can make the headphone too loud. Since many volume knob also have imbalance issue on very low position, you will also get imbalance issue as well. That's the first sign your amp's gain is too high for your headphone. Often, it is also a sign your headphone doesn't need any voltage gain at all. In cases like this, digital volume control (which doesn't suffer from imbalanced) and zero voltage gain are preferred, because it is really the current you are interested at this point. The second issue is, high gain brings higher noise level, which comes in the form of hiss. That can be easily picked up by a low impedance, high sensitivity headphone, like custom IEM.


----------



## MeeHungLowe

Excellent - thank you!


----------



## clairyvic

Wow, sounds complicated, I have no idea what to get now. :/
   
  When I get it, what do I do with the gain settings and whatever? I'm confused about the fiddling with the settings and stuff also and how turning up the gain causes distortion and whatever. The ibasso t3 has +10 db gain,Maximum Output power:120mW+120mW, Signal to Noise Ratio:-98dB. What does that mean? This amp buying buisness is so confusing lol.


----------



## hojomojo96

What would you guys say about the Fiio E11 vs the Audinst AMP-HP? I know the Fiio E11 is half the price, but considering it's amp is "better" than the E17's, and my options are an E11 or an Audinst (or some thing comparable to the Audinst), I figured I'd ask anyways.


----------



## clairyvic

The e11's amp is better then the e17, well I guess that just leaves the choice between the t3 and e11. What's frusterating is that is says the MD's require at least 100 mw per channel for best effect, but I can't find how much mw per channel each of these amps have on the internet. :/


----------



## Evshrug

hojomojo96 said:


> What would you guys say about the Fiio E11 vs the Audinst AMP-HP? I know the Fiio E11 is half the price, but considering it's amp is "better" than the E17's, and my options are an E11 or an Audinst (or some thing comparable to the Audinst), I figured I'd ask anyways.



It seems that if you want something around $150, and you aren't looking for a tube or integrated DAC, the general consensus of headphone enthusiasts is that the Objective2 (ClieOS' reference in this round-up) offers an unbeatable measured value. People who know they want a particular sound signature/coloration to season the taste of their particular headphone's signature may prefer something else: that's why everyone says "Your Milage May Vary."


----------



## Evshrug

clairyvic said:


> Don't know what a dac does. The EQ i'm not really interested in. I'm not sure what impedance means or a lot of this stuff means or else I would just look at the stats myself which is why i'm asking you guys.
> 
> 
> 
> But this headphone has 50 olms impedance, I don't know if that's a lot or a little. I guess I want minimal hissing because a lot of my music has a lot of atmospheric silence and hissing tends to bother me. So for power/lack of hissing what would be the best choice for a 50 olm headphone between the e11, e17, and t3? I don't really care about the money difference. For the sake of conversation lets just pretend they where all the same price, so even if one is just a little bit better despite the price difference I would want to get it.




Ok, going back to this post I am quoting... The reason we know (or are learning) what the stats mean is that we want to match an amp to our headphone. The whole voltage/current requirement isn't that difficult to wrap your head around. 

A good amp for a low impedance headphone (measured in Ohms) doesn't have much output impedance (so it can supply plenty of current). Meanwhile, a good amp for a high impedance headphone will need more and more voltage as the impedance goes up, and it will probably have enough current once you've got enough voltage. Basically, my understanding is that if you start with an amp that has a very low output impedance, and enough voltage to drive your headphone to acceptable volume decibel levels (preferably without turning the amp up to max), you have a good amp for your headphone.

If all that is still a mystery to you, or you can't find manufacturer listed specs for output ohms and voltage, then consider that ClieOS has found *19* options and measured them for you, and reviewed their sound character too. If you STILL can't decide what has priority for you, then just get the all-around very good Objective2 amp, and consider that part of your headphone audio DONE.


----------



## ClieOS

hojomojo96 said:


> What would you guys say about the Fiio E11 vs the Audinst AMP-HP? I know the Fiio E11 is half the price, but considering it's amp is "better" than the E17's, and my options are an E11 or an Audinst (or some thing comparable to the Audinst), I figured I'd ask anyways.




By amp section alone, I won't say E11 is better than E17. It is more like 'different'.


----------



## clairyvic

Objective2 isn't really a pOrtable amp.


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





clairyvic said:


> Objective2 isn't really a portable amp.


 
  How about over-sized semi-portable headphone amplifier?


----------



## clairyvic

Lol, it needs to fit in my skinny jeans. Which is why I want either the t3 or e11 or some other such small amp that's the best for drive a 50 olm headphone (meaning at least100 mw at 50 olms according to the maker).


----------



## AstralStorm

Quote: 





meehunglowe said:


> I think one of the challenges for new amp buyers is the difference between high current, high voltage & high gain.  I know it confuses me!  All I know is that low-impedance headphones tend to hiss and sound bad if the amp's gain is too high - but I really don't know why - I'm guessing it is because gain is actually a voltage increase?  And if the amp gain is too high for a low-impedance 'phone, then you can overdrive the 'phone (supply too much voltage) - is that correct?


 
   
  High gain (high multiplier of input voltage) causes high voltage, but there's a separate important measure, clipping voltage, which is the maximum voltage supplied by the amplifier regardless of gain. Low gain is usually better than high gain, since gain amplifies input noise and many potentiometers have channel imbalances most pronounced in the lower part of range. Switching to higher gain is only recommended if the audio is too quiet. (almost always)
  Low impedance headphones require an amplifier with exceptionally low current noise and higher maximum output current - they tax the current stage more than the gain stage. Too low maximum current will cause current limiting and sagging, which causes harmonic distortion.
  Reducing current noise is usually harder than reducing voltage noise and requires careful circuit layout and design.


----------



## Armaegis

Quote: 





purpleangel said:


> How about over-sized semi-portable headphone amplifier?


 
   
  I wonder when someone's going to make a smaller smd version.


----------



## AstralStorm

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Ok, going back to this post I am quoting... The reason we know (or are learning) what the stats mean is that we want to match an amp to our headphone. The whole voltage/current requirement isn't that difficult to wrap your head around.


 
  Not really, a good amplifier will do well both with highly sensitive IEMs and far less sensitive headphones, within limits.
  Usually the main source of limitations is at the higher impedance end due to the battery voltage - most amplifier producers are loathe to include step-up circuits, as they are expensive, usually power hungry and require even more care in circuit design to not introduce their switching noise into audio. Similar, but much less pronounced problems are faced by designs using charge pumps to synthesize the other rail (negative voltage) for the opamps.
   
  The low impedance IEMs on the other hand can be affected by high output impedance of the amplifier. This will cause frequency response changes in concert with natural impedance curve of the device, which mostly affects balanced armature IEMs, esp. multi BA; and lack of electrical dampening, which will mostly hurt dynamic driver and orthodynamic quality, causing harmonic distortion.
  Moving armatures are inbetween with regards to both of these effects.
   
  So, the ideal generic source would provide: relatively high maximum output current (for very low impedance IEMs and orthodynamic headphones), near zero output impedance (for BA IEMs) and high maximum voltage (for high impedance headphones). Obviously enough power to drive something high impedance.
  --
   
  Rebuilding O2 into SMD should be relatively easy, as all of the components have SMD versions. It won't be too much smaller though.
  The main source of girth in O2 is the two 9V batteries. Replacing them with li-ion or something else thinner (which could be laid above the PCB) would require replacing the power management circuit altogether - most of the bottom part of PCB. (near the batteries) Needs care to not break the performance.


----------



## ClieOS

armaegis said:


> I wonder when someone's going to make a smaller smd version.




NwAvGuy prohibits any modification to the design without his consensus (in the GPL) though...


----------



## HamilcarBarca

Quote: 





clieos said:


> NwAvGuy prohibits any modification to the design without his consensus (in the GPL) though...


 
   
  No, the GNU GPL permits modifications.
   
  The O2 is released under a "Creative Commons Attribution-NoDerivs 3.0 Unported (CC BY-ND 3.0)" license. Although real license interpretation requires a lawyer, I doubt this CC license prevents shrinking the board or using SMD parts.


----------



## ClieOS

Yes, you are right. It is under CC. However, here is what the guy said: "...the O2 is offered only under a “no derivatives” license. Put simply, you can’t modify it or use it as part of a different design and then offer it to others without prior approval. This is to help prevent inferior versions of the O2 that might disappoint whoever buys/builds them. Even the PC board design is an essential component of the O2’s performance and changing it could have dramatic consequences...." If course, one can always choose to disregard this sort of things...


----------



## AstralStorm

Exactly - the author of such a PCB/layout would have to contact NwAvGuy to get his approval. Nobody prevents using the same design principles, similar components, then calling it differently though.
  Perhaps you could even call the design inspired by O2.


----------



## Evshrug

AstralStorm,
You're right about the O2-inspired design... I'm also not a real lawyer (wouldn't want to be, tend to get so technical about EVERYTHING in life), but someone could come along, make a few changes, and call their amp something different. I mean, that's basically what happened with Fred_Fred_2004's 3-channels amp, right? Mini^3 inspired?
Also, in regards to your reply to my post, it seems like we mostly agree... just in different words. I was basically taking a stab at a shorter, layman's explanation of "proper" amping so that clairyvic could make his own decision. Since he/she kinda glossed over his needs, I was trying to just give him a general answer. An answer besides "just buy one and see if you like it," lol!


----------



## Evshrug

ClieOS, any possibility of doing that tube amp review? Also, this would probably be irrelevant to the portable amps shoot out, but have you heard of the Indeed G3 Tube Hybrid or Bravo V2 tube hybrid desktop amps? I have suspicions that they'll suit Q701's better than a FiiO E11 (though the top picks for the sub-$200 round up should do nice as well...)


----------



## ClieOS

evshrug said:


> ClieOS, any possibility of doing that tube amp review? Also, this would probably be irrelevant to the portable amps shoot out, but have you heard of the Indeed G3 Tube Hybrid or Bravo V2 tube hybrid desktop amps? I have suspicions that they'll suit Q701's better than a FiiO E11 (though the top picks for the sub-$200 round up should do nice as well...)




BL-2's review has actually been posted a week ago, you can find it here:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/627659/impression-tube-amp-bl-2-portable-miniature-tube-amp-from-china

Never listen to those eBay desktop tube amp before. I haven't had much use of desktop amp (plus I already have a hybrid amp from FireStone Audio) so I never think of picking one up.


----------



## mld218

I was looking at the Leckerton Audo site and noticed that the UHA-4 can be ordered with a couple different output OP amps.  The one in the review was done with OPA209 what is the difference between that and the standard AD8610ARZ that seems to come standard.
   
  Thanks for any input you can give
   
  Mike


----------



## RingingEars

I have to hand it to iBasso.
  I recieved a D-Zero a week ago and it had quite a bit of noise in the DAC section(amp section is silent using with ipod). I contacted iBasso and they sent me out a new one right away. I recieved that one yesterday and I have to say, it's a nice little amp/DAC.
  Dead quiet, great sound quality, and more than enough power.
  I guess I'll use one with the ipod and the other with the computer...


----------



## Evshrug

clieos said:


> BL-2's review has actually been posted a week ago, you can find it here:
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/627659/impression-tube-amp-bl-2-portable-miniature-tube-amp-from-china
> Never listen to those eBay desktop tube amp before. I haven't had much use of desktop amp (plus I already have a hybrid amp from FireStone Audio) so I never think of picking one up.




Thanks for writing and linking your review! I suppose the search for a sub $200 amp for the curious-resistance 62 Ohm AKG Q701 continues on...


----------



## Origin89

Quote: 





mld218 said:


> I was looking at the Leckerton Audo site and noticed that the UHA-4 can be ordered with a couple different output OP amps.  The one in the review was done with OPA209 what is the difference between that and the standard AD8610ARZ that seems to come standard.
> 
> Thanks for any input you can give
> 
> Mike


 
   
   
  The OPA209 is the more neutral/detailed one where the AD8610 is more colored/fun. I have the OPA209 and it sounds fantastic. Crisp, clean, and transparent. I believe Leckerton actually recommends the OPA209. That's the output amp that comes standard on the UHA-6s MKII.


----------



## ClieOS

origin89 said:


> The OPA209 is the more neutral/detailed one where the AD8610 is more colored/fun. I have the OPA209 and it sounds fantastic. Crisp, clean, and transparent. I believe Leckerton actually recommends the OPA209. That's the output amp that comes standard on the UHA-6s MKII.




Purely on the topic of opamp, I think I still prefer AD8610 overall, but OPA209 is really good sound as well.


----------



## Origin89

Quote: 





clieos said:


> Purely on the topic of opamp, I think I still prefer AD8610 overall, but OPA209 is really good sound as well.


 
   
  Did you find the AD8610 to be more colored comparably?


----------



## ClieOS

No, AD8610 sounds more transparent to me.


----------



## Origin89

Ahh, I thought it was the other way around. I know my OPA209 is really transparent, but I haven't tried the other one.


----------



## Bill-P

I finally got my C421 AD8620 in today.
   
  And wow, I think your descriptions are spot on, ClieOS. Personally, I think they actually sound superior to the O2 when coupled with my ES10.
   
  High gain is less hissy than O2, AD8620 gives a very detailed & layered presentation, plus the enclosure is small and portable. I can't say I'll miss my old O2 at all now.
   
  Thanks for the review! I read many reviews on the C421 before deciding to pull the trigger after reading your thoughts on them.


----------



## ClieOS

origin89 said:


> Ahh, I thought it was the other way around. I know my OPA209 is really transparent, but I haven't tried the other one.




There are things I like about both. In the same setup, AD8610 handles layer and resolution generally better than OPA209, but come a little short on width when compared to OPA209. OPA209 is more even in performance, but lacks any particular spot that push it over the top for me.




bill-p said:


> I finally got my C421 AD8620 in today.
> 
> And wow, I think your descriptions are spot on, ClieOS. Personally, I think they actually sound superior to the O2 when coupled with my ES10.
> 
> ...




Yep, I find C421-AD8620 with ER4S an great combo myself.


----------



## aznxpress82

Hey ClieOS, when can we expect to see your thoughts on the improved C421 amps?


----------



## ClieOS

aznxpress82 said:


> Hey ClieOS, when can we expect to see your thoughts on the improved C421 amps?




I am not getting a new unit or sending mine back, just the new ferrites (I am on the other side of the world from JDS). They are coming in with the new C421 faceplate I ordered, and shipping is usually a week, if not more. I still have to remove the old parts and solder the new parts in, then remeasure the amp. With everything done, I'll say probably about 2 weeks if nothing goes wrong.


----------



## Makiah S

c421 Black Edition Headphone Amplifier 8620   
  Sounds lovely! I read over your review of the Sub 100's and it lead me to get an E11 to the cMoy that I already had [I had the cMoy 2.03 2x9V rechargeable] so I liked how you rated the two Amps, so I'm hoping the above amp will be as enjoyable as my cMoy but of course without the coloring!
   
  I'm thinking of Pairing this with my 250 Ohm Dt 880s and soon to be 250 Ohm Dt 990 Pros, you think it will be a good combo? [Currently using the cMoy with the dt 880 and it drives it well, just want a little more bass but more imporantly more transparancy]
   
  Either way I'm hoping that amp can sever my current and future needs <3


----------



## Evshrug

Hey ClieOS, how do you measure output impedance? If I need special equipment, do you think an audio gear or guitar specialist shop would be able to measure an amp for me? Also, with the usual recommendation for output impedance to be 1/8th the ohms of the headphone impedance, what is the effect/benefit of impedance adapters such as the one to make an Etymotic ER4S "into" an ER4P (or do I have the two mixed up?)?

Thanks for sharing your expertise!


----------



## ClieOS

evshrug said:


> Hey ClieOS, how do you measure output impedance? If I need special equipment, do you think an audio gear or guitar specialist shop would be able to measure an amp for me? Also, with the usual recommendation for output impedance to be 1/8th the ohms of the headphone impedance, what is the effect/benefit of impedance adapters such as the one to make an Etymotic ER4S "into" an ER4P (or do I have the two mixed up?)?
> Thanks for sharing your expertise!




To do basic output impedance measurement, you will need 
(1) A digital multimeter that can measure AC in mV. 
(2) A fixed load that you can plug into the amp. I soldered a pair of matched 47ohm resistor to a Neutrik jack for this.
(3) An interconnecting cable. This is for you to measure the unload volatge easily straight from the plug
(4) A tone generator. Any decent USB DAC or sound card with Audacity on the PC will do.
(5) Some math calculation.

You can find the detail here, and it is basically the same thing NwAvGuy has described in his article about output impedance. He uses 100Hz mostly but I choose 1000Hz since it is more widely used. Note that many amp have higher output impedance on the top treble (15kHz~20kHz) so you don't want to measure in those area. Given what need to have, I don't think most typical shops will have the needed fixed load around for output impedance measurement unless they are also doing repair work and has some spare resistors around to play with.

Anyway, 1/8th is the minimum rule most are following. Some even go for the tougher 1/10th rule. The impedance adapter on ER4S (100ohm, 4P is 27ohm) is mainly to reshaped the FR curve to match the Etymotic 'ideal' curve and has less to do with dampening or the 1/8th rule. But in a way, you can say 4P is the colored sounding version of the 4S - it is just a matter of how you interpret words.


----------



## Bill-P

Can't wait to read your impressions on C421 with low output Z, ClieOS.
   
  I got mine changed by JDS Labs directly, and the impact on sound quality is immediately felt. My C421 sounds a lot like a more spacious O2 now.


----------



## RingingEars

Quote: 





bill-p said:


> Can't wait to read your impressions on C421 with low output Z, ClieOS.


 
  +1.
  I want this amp to pair with my new Classic. I have an iBasso D-Zero with it now, but I'm looking for a little more...


----------



## ClieOS

bill-p said:


> Can't wait to read your impressions on C421 with low output Z, ClieOS.
> 
> I got mine changed by JDS Labs directly, and the impact on sound quality is immediately felt. My C421 sounds a lot like a more spacious O2 now.




My current impression of the updated C421 remains largely the same as the original C421, which is neither a good or bad thing, as I like i just as much.


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





clieos said:


> My current impression of the updated C421 remains largely the same as the original C421, which is neither a good or bad thing, as I like i just as much.


 
  What differeance does the new ferrite have on Higher Impedance cans? like 250+


----------



## ClieOS

mshenay said:


> What differeance does the new ferrite have on Higher Impedance cans? like 250+




In theory, it shouldn't be any difference.


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





clieos said:


> In theory, it shouldn't be any difference.


 
  well lets hope I get work soon so I cna find out :3


----------



## Bill-P

Quote: 





clieos said:


> My current impression of the updated C421 remains largely the same as the original C421, which is neither a good or bad thing, as I like i just as much.


 
   
  Yeah, I just realized your ER4S would have no impedance problems... save for some high frequencies, but it wouldn't be that big a deal anyway.
   
  It's a noticeable improvement to my ATH-ES10. It gives the headphone a more spacious sound, and more polite bass.


----------



## Evshrug

clieos said:


> To do basic output impedance measurement, you will need
> (1) A digital multimeter that can measure AC in mV.
> (2) A fixed load that you can plug into the amp. I soldered a pair of matched 47ohm resistor to a Neutrik jack for this.
> (3) An interconnecting cable. This is for you to measure the unload volatge easily straight from the plug
> ...




Ok... So it's a lot to swallow, should take a while to digest all this info. Thanks for it, though.


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Ok... So it's a lot to swallow, should take a while to digest all this info. Thanks for it, though.


 
  Not really that made decent sense to me, I'd be happy to listen to the electrical explination of how sound is colored by electronics... that would be interesting! I think it has something to do with how the Harmonics are produced... I dunno
   
  Still anything that's less colored sounds good to me :3


----------



## QQSB

Thank you very helpful information.


----------



## Kaffeemann

Will an amp actually improve the sound quality of headphone/IEM?
   
  After reading NwAvGuy´s site it seems an amp sould do two things:
   
  1. Make things louder <=> less volume needed from the source
  2. Prevent clipping.
   
  Thats it???
   
  My HD 650 sound just fine straight out of my Sansa Clip Zip (RB). Still worth getting a O2?


----------



## ClieOS

Let's put it backward - if amp is only supposed to make things louder and prevent clipping, which neither seems to be an issue for your clip Zip driving HD650, why do you think NwAvGuy design the O2 in the first place as he also own both HD650 and Zip?
   
  I think the answer is simple: because sometime 'enough' is good enough, but it isn't the best it can be. Then you need to realize that 'best' can be as subjective as it is objective.


----------



## Kaffeemann

The O2 was not made for any headphone or source in particular, AFAIK.
  The O2 is your reference amp. So in your book it's the best amp in the sub-200$ range. The difference in sound quality with and without the O2 should be very obvious then, right?
   
  Quote:  





> Then you need to realize that 'best' can be as subjective as it is objective.


 
  I don't get this 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  EDIT: I found some data.
   
  Clip Zip: maximum output = 489 mV
   
  Sennheiser HD 650: 300 ohm impedance and 103 db/mW
   
  So the Clip has about 0.8 mW of power into 300 ohm headphones. So there will be clipping for anything that is louder than (103 db/mW) * (0.8 mW) = 82.5 db.
   
  Seems like you are right


----------



## HamilcarBarca

Quote: 





kaffeemann said:


> The O2 was not made for any headphone or source in particular, AFAIK.


 
   
  +1
   
  It was designed for 98% of the headphones out there. It's probably inadequate for mega-buck electrostatics, but it's more than adequate for just about everything else.
   
  Is it suitable for everyone? No, not if someone's looking for a "warm-sounding" amp, one with switchable inputs, an internal power supply or transformer, etc.
   
  It was my second choice, but I ended up preferring it to my first choice. I wouldn't hesitate to buy another.


----------



## Harito408

What about the leckerton slim?


----------



## Armaegis

Quote: 





hamilcarbarca said:


> Is it suitable for everyone? No, not if someone's looking for a "warm-sounding" amp, one with switchable inputs, an internal power supply or transformer, etc.


 
  Or actually portable...


----------



## HamilcarBarca

Quote: 





armaegis said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  When I was in school, I would have transported it in my backpack. But you're right. It's in no way a lightweight, pocket-sized amp.


----------



## The.Yield

Wow, great write-up and will definitely aid me in my upcoming amp purchase.


----------



## Evshrug

Looks like we have another potential entry into the round-up with FiiO's new "Mont Blanche" portable amp.


----------



## james93

this is a great read and will def help me out


----------



## AznInvasion138

Hey guys this thread has been really informative in helping me choose my first portable amp. I've narrowed it down to the Leckerton UHA4, JDS Labs C421 and FiiO E17. Was just wondering which of these would be more beneficial for me as they will be mostly powering my IEMs (Westone 3, JVC FXZ200) and sometimes my Denon D2000. Also I don't know if music preference matters but I listen to mostly EDM, hip hop, R&B, alternative rock, acoustic. Any recommendations would be helpful thanks!


----------



## imackler

Quote: 





azninvasion138 said:


> Hey guys this thread has been really informative in helping me choose my first portable amp. I've narrowed it down to the Leckerton UHA4, JDS Labs C421 and FiiO E17. Was just wondering which of these would be more beneficial for me as they will be mostly powering my IEMs (Westone 3, JVC FXZ200) and sometimes my Denon D2000. Also I don't know if music preference matters but I listen to mostly EDM, hip hop, R&B, alternative rock, acoustic. Any recommendations would be helpful thanks!


 
   
  Tough not to recommend the C421. Yep...can't think of any reason not too! Buy it and be happy.


----------



## AznInvasion138

Quote: 





imackler said:


> Tough not to recommend the C421. Yep...can't think of any reason not too! Buy it and be happy.


 
   
  Thanks for the recommendation imackler. I was just wondering why you recommend the C421 over the others?


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





azninvasion138 said:


> Hey guys this thread has been really informative in helping me choose my first portable amp. I've narrowed it down to the Leckerton UHA4, JDS Labs C421 and FiiO E17. Was just wondering which of these would be more beneficial for me as they will be mostly powering my IEMs (Westone 3, JVC FXZ200) and sometimes my Denon D2000. Also I don't know if music preference matters but I listen to mostly EDM, hip hop, R&B, alternative rock, acoustic. Any recommendations would be helpful thanks!


 
   
  FXZ200 should be fine as it doesn't have crossover circuit, but W3 might have a chance of impedance interact with C421. To be opn the safe side, I'll recommend UHA-4.


----------



## AznInvasion138

Quote: 





clieos said:


> FXZ200 should be fine as it doesn't have crossover circuit, but W3 might have a chance of impedance interact with C421. To be opn the safe side, I'll recommend UHA-4.


 
   
  Thanks for the recommendation ClieOS and great job with the thread it really help open my eyes to what portable amps are offered out there these days. I'm looking at the Leckerton Audio website and they have different Op amps you can choose from AD8610ARZ, OPA209AID, or OPA627 (extra $50) and am still confused as to exactly what the differences are.
   
  Also I will most likely be using the portable amp with my ipod touch and was wondering what I would need to connect the UHA4 with the ipod. I was looking at the E17 until i came across JDS Labs and Leckerton Audio so I only knew of the LOD cable that connects the amp to the portable player. Thanks again for the help!


----------



## ClieOS

AD8610 is my personal choice and that's what I'll recommend. OPA209 is fine as well though it doesn't wow me. OPA627 is likely an overkill, good sounding but I won't want to pay that much over AD8610.
   
  iPod Touch should be able to drive your IEM well enough by its own. Adding an amp won't improve the sound vastly, but it will likely offer tighter control and thus a more refined sound.


----------



## imackler

Quote: 





clieos said:


> FXZ200 should be fine as it doesn't have crossover circuit, but W3 might have a chance of impedance interact with C421. To be opn the safe side, I'll recommend UHA-4.


 
   
  Doesn't the revised black edition of the C421 take care of that? I'm not smart with this stuff though... That being said I am enjoying the AD8610 a ton in my Neco; I wish it were still available in the C421. THe OPA2227 is not a slouch though, and actually may be a good fit for both of those bass/trebley earphones. imo.


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





imackler said:


> Doesn't the revised black edition of the C421 take care of that?


 
   
  It lower the output impedance, but not enough to fully avoid potential issue.


----------



## imackler

Quote: 





clieos said:


> It lower the output impedance, but not enough to fully avoid potential issue.


 
  Wow! That's good to know!


----------



## AznInvasion138

clieos said:


> AD8610 is my personal choice and that's what I'll recommend. OPA209 is fine as well though it doesn't wow me. OPA627 is likely an overkill, good sounding but I won't want to pay that much over AD8610.
> 
> iPod Touch should be able to drive your IEM well enough by its own. Adding an amp won't improve the sound vastly, but it will likely offer tighter control and thus a more refined sound.




So in the end what I want from a portable amp is a better soundstage and overall better quality of music but you're saying it won't be doing that? Lol I'm a little confused as to the benefits at this point


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





azninvasion138 said:


> So in the end what I want from a portable amp is a better soundstage and overall better quality of music but you're saying it won't be doing that? Lol I'm a little confused as to the benefits at this point


 
   
  I said 'not vastly', not 'won't do it'. Being enough to driver a headphone and driving it very well are two things.
   
  Also, adding an amp doesn't automatically make any source sounds better. It seems to be the common assumption for many but it is not true all the time. Only when the amp is better than the internal amp where you'll see the improvement. If the internal amp is also good, then any benefit of extra amping will be very limited.


----------



## AznInvasion138

Quote: 





clieos said:


> I said 'not vastly', not 'won't do it'. Being enough to driver a headphone and driving it very well are two things.
> 
> Also, adding an amp doesn't automatically make any source sounds better. It seems to be the common assumption for many but it is not true all the time. Only when the amp is better than the internal amp where you'll see the improvement. If the internal amp is also good, then any benefit of extra amping will be very limited.


 
   
  Oo ok got it thanks for the explanation! Also I was wondering if it was worth it to go for the UHA-6 II for another $80 or are the differences not that big enough.


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





azninvasion138 said:


> Oo ok got it thanks for the explanation! Also I was wondering if it was worth it to go for the UHA-6 II for another $80 or are the differences not that big enough.


 
   
  Haven't heard the UHA-6 MKII, but Nick @ Leckerton Audio does say it shares a very similar topology as UHA-4 so I'll assume the amp section should sound pretty close. The big improvement will be from the DAC section in that case.


----------



## AznInvasion138

Sounds great, I just want to find the best portable amp for me right now that would pair well with any IEM or headphone thrown at it. Is there any other recommendations under $300 that I should take a look at? Thanks again!


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





azninvasion138 said:


> Sounds great, I just want to find the best portable amp for me right now that would pair well with any IEM or headphone thrown at it. Is there any other recommendations under $300 that I should take a look at? Thanks again!


 
   
  O2 of course, if you don't mind the size. Otherwise Tralucent Audio T1 is pretty good with IEM as well, reviewed here.


----------



## lh2705

Thanks for the excellent write up.
  Went for the c421, it's unfortunate they stopped selling the ad8620s tho, got the opa2227 instead.
  Also, I managed to pick up some EMI(very minor) so I don't think it's dead silent..
  Mine are black editions tho.. perhaps the older ones were quieter?


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





lh2705 said:


> Thanks for the excellent write up.
> Went for the c421, it's unfortunate they stopped selling the ad8620s tho, got the opa2227 instead.
> Also, I managed to pick up some EMI(very minor) so I don't think it's dead silent..
> Mine are black editions tho.. perhaps the older ones were quieter?


 
   
  Well different cellphones, you might be able to pick up some EMI if the cellphone happens to push out a lot of them. It is however unusual for C421 to pick up EMI as the circuit is designed to resist EMI. It is however possible that the source itself is picking up EMI and pass it to the amp.


----------



## xyjames

Thank you ClisOS for sharing so much experience.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  I see the Leckerton UHA-4 winning a very high score in your list.
  Now I'm really interested in its upgrade version UHA-6S MKii. How about your impression(and scores) of this amp? If you add it to the ranking list(ignore the price), will it win the JDSLabsO2?


----------



## ClieOS

I never listened to UHA-6 MKII before, so I don't know. However, Nick @ Leckerton has said it before that the amp sections between the two amps are very similar so I'll venture a guess that UHA-6 MKII should be equally good or better, but probably not vastly. The major upgrade you will get going from UHA-4 to UHA-6 MKII will likely be the upgraded DAC section.


----------



## joe it

Hi ClieOS
   
  thank you very much for the reply at this link 
   
http://www.head-fi.org/t/620339/fiio-flagship-portable-amp-mont-blanc-e12-discussing-thread-the-pre-order-unit-arrives/1170#post_9153626
   
   
  From what I understand the E12 is not exactly what I'm looking for.   I rarely use headphones full size high-impedance and when I do, not in ' portable 'situation.
   
  From what I've read to me would be more suitable for a Headphone Amplifier or USB DAC with portable amp.
   
  I had gotten interested in E12 to the improvement of the quality of an amp Fijo readily available in Italy.
   
  Currently the only portable amp that I have is the Fijo E6 but somehow degrades the signal of the Sony X series Dap which at moment I prefer.
   
  The only useful usage of E6 is coupled to my Cowon J3 to minimize roll off bass.
   
  I'm looking for a USB DAC or portable amli with better quality of the Fijo E17 (comparable as amp to E11) and that not suffer of  roll off bass also with IEM.
   
  I read of UHA-4 but is Temporarily sold out and the  c421 is OUT OF STOCK.
   
  I didn't hurry up and as far as possible take something valid
   
  That said, what you recommend me?


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





joe it said:


> I read of UHA-4 but is Temporarily sold out and the  c421 is OUT OF STOCK.


 
   
  I really don't have other amp to recommend you at that price point of the same quality as those two. You might want to email Leckerton Audio and ask them when will the UHA-4 be restocked, or wait another month for the new JDS Labs C5 to make it to the market.


----------



## DMinor

Quote: 





joe it said:


> I read of UHA-4 but is Temporarily sold out and the  c421 is OUT OF STOCK.


 
   
  Those are discontinued and superseded by their latest amp's. There is a guy selling now the UHA-4 at the "amp for sale" so you may want to check it out.


----------



## joe it

Quote: 





clieos said:


> I really don't have other amp to recommend you at that price point of the same quality as those two. You might want to email Leckerton Audio and ask them when will the UHA-4 be restocked, or wait another month for the new JDS Labs C5 to make it to the market.


 
  Thanks, always very friendly.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  I'm going to tell me everything that i find on C5.
   
  Whereas i cant do without a sub bass fast and full-bodied toward which of the two should i myself? 
   
  Quote: 





dminor said:


> Those are discontinued and superseded by their latest amp's. There is a guy selling now the UHA-4 at the "amp for sale" so you may want to check it out.


 
   
  Thanks .... but i can't find it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Could you kindly tell me the link?


----------



## imackler

Quote: 





> Thanks .... but i can't find it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Here are some C421s: 
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/649854/jds-labs-c421-black-edition-2227-opamp-custom-low-profile-toxic-silver-plated-copper-lod-for-sale
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/650816/fs-jdslabs-c421-black-edition-opa2227-version-as-new-150-eur-130-gbp


----------



## joe it

Quote: 





imackler said:


> Here are some C421s:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/649854/jds-labs-c421-black-edition-2227-opamp-custom-low-profile-toxic-silver-plated-copper-lod-for-sale
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/650816/fs-jdslabs-c421-black-edition-opa2227-version-as-new-150-eur-130-gbp


 
   
  Thank you very much


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





dminor said:


> Those are discontinued and *superseded by their latest amp's*. There is a guy selling now the UHA-4 at the "amp for sale" so you may want to check it out.


 
   
  True for C421, but not for UHA-4. Nick @ Leckerton Audio already stated that the UHA-4 and UHA-6 MK2 share similar topology over their amp section so even though UHA-6 MK2 is a better amp, it isn't meant to supersede UHA-4. One of simply designed to be full featured while the other is optimized for portability.


----------



## joe it

Perhaps I am slightly OT, but i wanted to ask an opinion to ClieOS or anyone may be able to answer, on *ibasso D6 Fer de lances* that i buyed used to 'amp for sale'


----------



## ClieOS

Someone else has to answer you since I never play with D6 before.


----------



## Gilly87

Can anyone compare the SMSL Fort to the E17 as a DAC/amp combo?


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





gilly87 said:


> Can anyone compare the SMSL Fort to the E17 as a DAC/amp combo?


 
   
  The DAC is PCM2704, so that's already a step-down.


----------



## Gilly87

Darn, just ordered one up. Ah well, 1/3 the price and it's getting decent reviews, worth a shot right? ^_^
 Quote: 





clieos said:


> The DAC is PCM2704, so that's already a step-down.


----------



## ClieOS

Consider the low price, it shouldn't be too bad value wise.


----------



## Makiah S

How is the c&c bh... Heard about it today n it's around 109$


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





mshenay said:


> How is the c&c bh... Heard about it today n it's around 109$


 
   
  The portable amp market in China is much larger than most HFer know, and I don't have the budget to test for all of them. The C&C are mostly old model and I'll let them pass till they release something new.


----------



## Bill-P

If you're asking about the BH relative to C421, I can tell you that the C421 is far superior in just about everything.


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





bill-p said:


> If you're asking about the BH relative to C421, I can tell you that the C421 is far superior in just about everything.


 
  well that's what I figured. Still C5 should b nice... any details on it yet


----------



## gopanthersgo1

Could you test the C5? Thanks!


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





gopanthersgo1 said:


> Could you test the C5? Thanks!


 
   
  I want to, but will have to wait till next month since I have spent my money elsewhere.


----------



## gopanthersgo1

clieos said:


> I want to, but will have to wait till next month since I have spent my money elsewhere.


Wait, all these amps you bought for yourself?!? Ask JDS for a review sample!


----------



## Evshrug

gopanthersgo1 said:


> Wait, all these amps you bought for yourself?!? Ask JDS for a review sample!




Wouldn't hurt to try... With your (ClieOS') status here, you would be doing JDS Labs a service. ClieOS, I bought my first amp, a FiiO E5, because of you and your posts when it was first coming out. If I was making an amp for sale, I would ask if you'd review a sample.


----------



## gopanthersgo1

evshrug said:


> Wouldn't hurt to try... With your (ClieOS') status here, you would be doing JDS Labs a service. ClieOS, I bought my first amp, a FiiO E5, because of you and your posts when it was first coming out. If I was making an amp for sale, I would ask if you'd review a sample.


I agree, I've used your reviews a ton! Heck, if I were a company I'd PAY you to review an amp!


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





gopanthersgo1 said:


> Wait, all these amps you bought for yourself?!? Ask JDS for a review sample!


 
   
  Not all of them are samples. FiiO, Lear, SoundMAGIC and digiZoid are, there rest are my own purchase.


----------



## gopanthersgo1

clieos said:


> Not all of them are samples. FiiO, Lear, SoundMAGIC and digiZoid are, there rest are my own purchase.


Have enough amps?


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





gopanthersgo1 said:


> Have enough amps?


 

 Apparently never


----------



## gopanthersgo1

clieos said:


> Apparently never


and then there's be without any portable amps besides the ZO2.3 that I'm selling... I want a bright amp with a good sound stage. Recs?


----------



## Seekky

Quote: 





gopanthersgo1 said:


> and then there's be without any portable amps besides the ZO2.3 that I'm selling... I want a bright amp with a good sound stage. Recs?


 
  ELE+E11 sounds bright and good sound stage to me. (i know it's a combo)


----------



## gopanthersgo1

seekky said:


> ELE+E11 sounds bright and good sound stage to me. (i know it's a combo)


Have you tried the Muse dac yet?


----------



## Seekky

Quote: 





gopanthersgo1 said:


> Have you tried the Muse dac yet?


 
  i think they are about the same sound. they both used [size=small]PCM2704.[/size]
  [size=small]but i prefer the ELE more since they are cheaper.[/size]


----------



## gopanthersgo1

seekky said:


> i think they are about the same sound. they both used [size=small]PCM2704.[/size]
> 
> [size=small]but i prefer the ELE more since they are cheaper.[/size]


kk, I might order the Muse due to faster shipping though.


----------



## Seekky

Quote: 





gopanthersgo1 said:


> kk, I might order the Muse due to faster shipping though.


 
  i saw somebody selling his like new ELE for $15 shipped in FS.


----------



## gopanthersgo1

seekky said:


> i saw somebody selling his like new ELE for $15 shipped in FS.


will check out.


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





gopanthersgo1 said:


> I want a bright amp with a good sound stage. Recs?


 
   
  What you'll want is something that is extremely transparent and revealing, and O2 will fit the bill if you are willing to carry it around. If C5 is as good as its measurement is indicated, then perhaps it will fit as well. I have a prototype amp that almost fit the description as well, thought it is not yet ready for prime time so I won't bother you with it for now.


----------



## gopanthersgo1

clieos said:


> What you'll want is something that is extremely transparent and revealing, and O2 will fit the bill if you are willing to carry it around. If C5 is as good as its measurement is indicated, then perhaps it will fit as well. I have a prototype amp that almost fit the description as well, thought it is not yet ready for prime time so I won't bother you with it for now.


I'm gonna make an O2 for the car, buy need something pocket able for my iems once u get Em though... What's the prototype amp? Also, can't wait for c5 impressions... Seems promising.


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





gopanthersgo1 said:


> I'm gonna make an O2 for the car, buy need something pocket able for my iems once u get Em though... What's the prototype amp? Also, can't wait for c5 impressions... Seems promising.


 
   
  It is called 'Project Woodwind', not sure if that's its final name or not. You won't find any detail over the web about it for now, but I think it is in the final phase of R&D if not already into early production. Think of an ultraportable amp that has the O2 level of SQ. I will talk more about it in the preview I am writing at the moment.


----------



## gopanthersgo1

clieos said:


> It is called 'Project Woodwind', not sure if that's its final name or not. You won't find any detail over the web about it for now, but I think it is in the final phase of R&D if not already into early production. Think of an ultraportable amp that has the O2 level of SQ. I will talk more about it in the preview I am writing at the moment.


Sounds promising... Is it DIY? If not, what company?


----------



## casanova

Hi ClieOS,
  How would you rank the Audinst HP-AMP among this list?


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





gopanthersgo1 said:


> Sounds promising... Is it DIY? If not, what company?


 
  Not DIY. I only have the amp board (PCB) but not the full amp to play with, but the PCB is not something you can solder with hand. The guy works in a company called Critical Point Engineering, but I don't know much about the company nor about the scale of this project.
   
  Quote: 





casanova said:


> Hi ClieOS,
> How would you rank the Audinst HP-AMP among this list?


 
  Sorry, never listen to any Audinst before.


----------



## gopanthersgo1

clieos said:


> Not DIY. I only have the amp board (PCB) but not the full amp to play with, but the PCB is not something you can solder with hand. The guy works in a company called Critical Point Engineering, but I don't know much about the company nor about the scale of this project.
> 
> Sorry, never listen to any Audinst before.


Does it have a serial connection like like c5? That's a great feature on it, they released the source and everything.

Also, do you know the msrp?


----------



## ClieOS

Serial connection? Not sure what that is.
   
  I don't know about the pricing.


----------



## casanova

Quote: 





clieos said:


> Sorry, never listen to any Audinst before.


 
   
  Oh, I thought I could hear a few words from you regarding this portable amp.
  But that's fine, ClieOS.
  Always appreciated your reviews.


----------



## gopanthersgo1

clieos said:


> Serial connection? Not sure what that is.
> 
> I don't know about the pricing.


Data pins to program it's hardware and chips, it should be a 6pin connection. C5 has it where you have to pins on to it.


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





gopanthersgo1 said:


> Data pins to program it's hardware and chips, it should be a 6pin connection. C5 has it where you have to pins on to it.


 
   
  The reason why C5 can be programmed is because it has a digital volume control that uses open source firmware. It is the only kind that I know of. Most other digital volume control uses closed source firmware. So in short, no, no programmable part in Project Woodwind. In fact, it doesn't have a volume control at all. In any case, it is not likely many will find programmable volume control to be particularly useful since you need some degree of understanding in programming as well as DIYing to make change to something that is already fairly well implemented.


----------



## gopanthersgo1

clieos said:


> The reason why C5 can be programmed is because it has a digital volume control that uses open source firmware. It is the only kind that I know of. Most other digital volume control uses closed source firmware. So in short, no, no programmable part in Project Woodwind. In fact, it doesn't have a volume control at all. In any case, it is not likely many will find programmable volume control to be particularly useful since you need some degree of understanding in programming as well as DIYing to make change to something that is already fairly well implemented.


I think it;s board was actually arduino based, allowing the change of governors of battery and stuff, I've already seen a mod where someone put an S3 battery in it making it last much longer...


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





gopanthersgo1 said:


> I think it;s board was actually arduino based, allowing the change of governors of battery and stuff, I've already seen a mod where someone put an S3 battery in it making it last much longer...


 
   
  Most of the things that you can program are already set to optimum, so changing it most likely will make it less than optimum, thus defeat the point of trying to improve it. Putting a bigger battery doesn't need to change the firmware in anyway. Just solder it in and you are done.


----------



## gopanthersgo1

clieos said:


> Most of the things that you can program are already set to optimum, so changing it most likely will make it less than optimum, thus defeat the point of trying to improve it. Putting a bigger battery doesn't need to change the firmware in anyway. Just solder it in and you are done.


I see... I thought you might if it had a different voltage or amperage,,, (Just starting to DIY)


----------



## TrollDragon

Have a read through the C5 firmware sketch, there really isn't a whole lot in there for modification in it's current state unless you add parts to the unused I/O pins on the ATMega168.
  https://github.com/jdslabs/c5_v100_MasterFirmware104/blob/master/c5_v100_MasterFirmware104.ino (Opens in a viewer)
   
  I can see people easily adding that Apple style slow breathing glow to the power LED.
   
  You'll need a PogoPin board like this if there is not enough room to solder header pins directly to the board.
  You will also need an ISP Programmer to put the code there, either an Arduino Board, a LauchPad MSP430 or anything like the Sparkfun AVR Programmer. 
   
   
  The DS1882 dual log digital pots from Maxim talk I²C, two wire addressable devices have to be controlled by an I²C master which is what the ATMega168 is doing.
   
  From what I read in the source code, the ATMega168's functions are:
   
  Turns on Power
  Reads saved Gain & Volume values from an EEPROM.
  Sets Gain
  Sets Volume
  Monitors Battery Low
  Changes LED's to reflect low battery or normal condition.
   
  The only libraries loaded at compile time are Wire.h for the I²C functions and EEPROM.h for talking to the EEPROM.
   
  I was hoping for more but that is all the 'duino chip does... around the Arduino community they would say that the ATMega168 was just put in there for "Blog Cred." (HaD joke... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 )
   
  My 2 cents.


----------



## gopanthersgo1

trolldragon said:


> Have a read through the C5 firmware sketch, there really isn't a whole lot in there for modification in it's current state unless you add parts to the unused I/O pins on the ATMega168.
> https://github.com/jdslabs/c5_v100_MasterFirmware104/blob/master/c5_v100_MasterFirmware104.ino (Opens in a viewer)
> 
> I can see people easily adding that Apple style slow breathing glow to the power LED.
> ...


I know it has enough room inside to solder ISP pins, so probably no need for a pogopin board. It would be cool to add a red and green LED to it for battery level, or a multicolored one that oscillates... or changes colors every 5 minutes or something... Also, maybe you could make the volume knob less sensitive for easy to drive IEMs... Noot too much you can really do with it though... that's too bad.


----------



## TrollDragon

All those mods you've mentioned could be applied, change LEDs add more etc. The volume control chip has 63 steps, so you could slow down the action of the volume switch or have you move it twice in the direction that you want for finer stepping. It would still be in 1db increments though as that is the way the DS1882 works.
   
  When I say there is not much you can do, I mean that besides the volume, gain, LED's and battery stuff you'd have to add parts somewhere inside.


----------



## gopanthersgo1

trolldragon said:


> All those mods you've mentioned could be applied, change LEDs add more etc. The volume control chip has 63 steps, so you could slow down the action of the volume switch or have you move it twice in the direction that you want for finer stepping. It would still be in 1db increments though as that is the way the DS1882 works.
> 
> When I say there is not much you can do, I mean that besides the volume, gain, LED's and battery stuff you'd have to add parts somewhere inside.


 I know... Would still be fun though...


----------



## Makiah S

I've been wanting to try the c4 for a while I hope the c5 is even cleaner


----------



## gopanthersgo1

mshenay said:


> I've been wanting to try the c4 for a while I hope the c5 is even cleaner


We're talking about the C5 amp... the C5 headphones are a lot bassier than the C4s according to their website, so they shouldn't be as clear sounding...


----------



## ukaudiophile

I need to decide which one will suit my B&W P5's the best.


----------



## Bill-P

Quote: 





gopanthersgo1 said:


> I want a bright amp with a good sound stage. Recs?


 
   
  Have you checked these out?
   
  C&C BH
  Leckerton UHA-6S Mk.II (some claim it's even more detailed than O2, and I'd believe them now that I own one)


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





gopanthersgo1 said:


> We're talking about the C5 amp... the C5 headphones are a lot bassier than the C4s according to their website, so they shouldn't be as clear sounding...


 
  ewww, ugh that's not what I wanted to hear q.q


----------



## gopanthersgo1

bill-p said:


> Have you checked these out?
> 
> C&C BH
> Leckerton UHA-6S Mk.II (some claim it's even more detailed than O2, and I'd believe them now that I own one)


not yet, what's the uha-6s thread...


----------



## Bill-P

You mean you wanna read about it? Here you go:
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/602493/new-leckerton-uha-6s-mkii-portable-headphone-amplifier-announced-update-user-impressions-added-july-20th-2012


----------



## gopanthersgo1

bill-p said:


> You mean you wanna read about it? Here you go:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/602493/new-leckerton-uha-6s-mkii-portable-headphone-amplifier-announced-update-user-impressions-added-july-20th-2012


thanks!


----------



## Evshrug

ClieOS,
just want to check something with you, as I haven't heard the E11 (though I don't know if you still have one). I know the ratings might be affected by price-range value, but do you feel the Mont Blanc has less transparency and soundstage than the E11?


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> ClieOS,
> just want to check something with you, as I haven't heard the E11 (though I don't know if you still have one). I know the ratings might be affected by price-range value, but do you feel the Mont Blanc has less transparency and soundstage than the E11?


 
   
  I don't have an E11 any more so take it with a grain of salt, but from what I remember, yes, the overall soundstage / depth feel smaller on E12.


----------



## Evshrug

clieos said:


> I don't have an E11 any more so take it with a grain of salt, but from what I remember, yes, the overall soundstage / depth feel smaller on E12.



Very interesting. You did rate these aspects pretty highly with the E11 compared to your reference.


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Very interesting. You did rate these aspects pretty highly with the E11 compared to your reference.


 
   
  Yes. the main difference is the E11 doesn't have the kind of openness / blackness into the background (like O2); but with E12, I can really feel the sides are compressed inward. The crossfeed actual help to reduce some of that feeling, but it is not a full fix.


----------



## Evshrug

I'll try enabling the Crossfeed again, thanks. I used it for a while, but for my review I tried switching back to the "baseline" all-extras-off settings. And as you know, the Q701s I use can be wider than deep sometimes, so that may compensate a bit... of course, I overall prefer my desktop tube amp I got back in December.


----------



## imackler

Hey, Clieos. I know amps don't change headphones but I'm looking to tighten bass and highlight mids just a smidgeon w/ my DT770 32ohm. Any recommendation?


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





imackler said:


> Hey, Clieos. I know amps don't change headphones but I'm looking to tighten bass and highlight mids just a smidgeon w/ my DT770 32ohm. Any recommendation?


 
   
  Wish I can recommend any but without listening to DT770 32ohm myself, what I can say will be mostly guesswork. Find the right synergy between amp and headphone can only be done reliably with a trial and error approach.


----------



## imackler

Quote: 





clieos said:


> Wish I can recommend any but without listening to DT770 32ohm myself, what I can say will be mostly guesswork. Find the right synergy between amp and headphone can only be done reliably with a trial and error approach.


 

 I thought you might say that!  But if I didn't mention the name of the headphone and just said, transparent amp with forward mids and tight, impactful bass, what would you recommend?


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





imackler said:


> ... transparent amp with forward mids and tight, impactful bass, what would you recommend?


 
   
  Transparent means it shouldn't have a forwarded mid, but more likely a forwarded presentation. Tight and impactful bass is a sign of good control and power. In such case, I would think E12 should fit the bill. Do note that, with a more forwarded presentation, overall soundstage will suffer. You can't have something upfront and specious at the same time.


----------



## lootr5858

Which sounds better? FiiO12 or iBasso D-Zero?
  I'm currently using ue 700 and planning to get grado sr80i in a year or too,
  I'm thinking of an amp too, but after looking through all the review, I have narrowed down to 12 and d-zero
  what is the difference in the sound characteristic? which one suit the ue 700 and grado better


----------



## thesuperguy

It seems as if the E11 trumps the E12 in many aspects despite its lower price, so why is it placed higher in ranking on your list?


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





lootr5858 said:


> Which sounds better? FiiO12 or iBasso D-Zero?
> I'm currently using ue 700 and planning to get grado sr80i in a year or too,
> I'm thinking of an amp too, but after looking through all the review, I have narrowed down to 12 and d-zero
> what is the difference in the sound characteristic? which one suit the ue 700 and grado better


 
  Though E12 is the better sounding amp, I'll go against it and recommend D-zero as you don't need the extra power of the E12 and D-zero might be better pairing with UE700 and Grado.
   
  Quote: 





thesuperguy said:


> It seems as if the E11 trumps the E12 in many aspects despite its lower price, so why is it placed higher in ranking on your list?


 
   
  Because the list is ranked based purely on overall SQ. In other words, the sum of individual category isn't larger than the total.


----------



## kkfan

clieos said:


> I want to, but will have to wait till next month since I have spent my money elsewhere.




Eagerly awaiting your review.


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





kkfan said:


> Eagerly awaiting your review.


 
   
  Order will be placed soon, but nevertheless we still have to wait till the 12th for JDS to deliver the next batch. Putting in the two weeks for delivery, May is perhaps a better projection. Right now I am debating to myself whether I should get a C&C BH or not...decision, decision.


----------



## SkyBleu

Quote: 





clieos said:


> Order will be placed soon, but nevertheless we still have to wait till the 12th for JDS to deliver the next batch. Putting in the two weeks for delivery, May is perhaps a better projection. Right now I am debating to myself whether I should get a C&C BH or not...decision, decision.


 
  ClieOS, I'd say go for it. It may be little, but it packs one hell of a punch! It's a shot worth trying 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 especially for it's price!


----------



## lootr5858

Thanks alot


----------



## ClieOS

Order for C5 has been placed. I am still not too sure about BH since I know it will get very little actual use. I don't think I'll order a new unit for it, and most likely going to hunt down a 2nd hand unit in the forum if it pops up with a reasonable price.


----------



## kkfan

clieos said:


> Order for C5 has been placed. I am still not too sure about BH since I know it will get very little actual use. I don't think I'll order a new unit for it, and most likely going to hunt down a 2nd hand unit in the forum if it pops up with a reasonable price.




Great!
Looking forward to your C5 impressions once you receive the amp.


----------



## Gilly87

So stoked! I am debating between the UHA-4, C421 and C5, can't wait to see what you think 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  Quote: 





clieos said:


> Order for C5 has been placed. I am still not too sure about BH since I know it will get very little actual use. I don't think I'll order a new unit for it, and most likely going to hunt down a 2nd hand unit in the forum if it pops up with a reasonable price.


----------



## Mitchm

Is their a portable amp or amp/dac that will work well with the HD 600/650.
   Or do you to go with a desk amp or tube amp.
   
  Thanks Mitch


----------



## ClieOS

Unless there is a good reason, I'll generally stick to desktop amp when it comes to full size >= 250ohm. Tube amp doesn't necessary measure / performance better than solid state, but often is a lot more fun to listen to, plus tube rolling to get the best synergy is in itself great fun as well. The end result can be very satisfying.  However, HD600/650 isn't that hard to drive that portable can't drive them well enough. Leckerton Audio UHA-6 MK2 will be something I would consider as a portable all-in-one solution.


----------



## stevovee

excellent thread, thanks for taking the time to write this up!


----------



## qilto

I'm considering getting an iBasso T5 to pair with my Hifiman RE272s. Does the T5 remember what volume you set it at when you turn it off? I would rather not have to adjust the volume with the digital steps every time I use it.


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





qilto said:


> I'm considering getting an iBasso T5 to pair with my Hifiman RE272s. Does the T5 remember what volume you set it at when you turn it off? I would rather not have to adjust the volume with the digital steps every time I use it.


 
   
  Yes, it will remember the volume of last use. However, do take note that I am not too impressed with its build quality. It is a risk you will have to take.


----------



## lh2705

Hi ClieOS,
   
  Will you be getting a JDS C5? I'd be interested to know what you think about it in comparison to the c421.


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





lh2705 said:


> Hi ClieOS,
> 
> Will you be getting a JDS C5? I'd be interested to know what you think about it in comparison to the c421.


 
   
  Yes, my C5 is on its way to me right now. Should be here in less than two weeks if nothing goes wrong.


----------



## imackler

Quote: 





clieos said:


> Yes, my C5 is on its way to me right now. Should be here in less than two weeks if nothing goes wrong.


 
  Stoked to hear your impressions!


----------



## qilto

Quote: 





clieos said:


> Yes, it will remember the volume of last use. However, do take note that I am not too impressed with its build quality. It is a risk you will have to take.


 
  Would you say the Hifiman RE272s sound better with the T5 or the O2? If the O2 sounds better I might go for that instead.


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





qilto said:


> Would you say the Hifiman RE272s sound better with the T5 or the O2? If the O2 sounds better I might go for that instead.


 
   
  O2 wins, but only by a hair.


----------



## Vemon

Digizoid ZO2.3 is good to pair with the shure 535 or se215 with Itouch 5?


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





vemon said:


> Digizoid ZO2.3 is good to pair with the shure 535 or se215 with Itouch 5?


 
   
  I would use neither with amp. But ZO2.3 is as much an bass EQ than it is an amp  - I'll only recommend it if you already listened to the IEM and find them lacking bass.


----------



## Vemon

Would you suggest any good bass earphone under 100$ (prefer iem with good isolation) for ZO 2.3. I want to use it to listen some house music (progressive, trance, remix, dance) or Kpop. Thank you


----------



## gopanthersgo1

vemon said:


> Would you suggest any good bass earphone under 100$ (prefer iem with good isolation) for ZO 2.3. I want to use it to listen some house music (progressive, trance, remix, dance) or Kpop. Thank you


Ask here.


----------



## Mitchm

Quote: 





clieos said:


> Unless there is a good reason, I'll generally stick to desktop amp when it comes to full size >= 250ohm. Tube amp doesn't necessary measure / performance better than solid state, but often is a lot more fun to listen to, plus tube rolling to get the best synergy is in itself great fun as well. The end result can be very satisfying.  However, HD600/650 isn't that hard to drive that portable can't drive them well enough. Leckerton Audio UHA-6 MK2 will be something I would consider as a portable all-in-one solution.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## gopanthersgo1

Is your Woodwind review up yet?


----------



## Mitchm

Quote: 





mitchm said:


>


 
  I looked at the Leckerton stock on their website they are out of stock until June on the UHA 6 mk 2 the other UHA 6 models are discontinued. The model 4 is available. I know you suggested the 6. Nice size so your suggested is well received.


----------



## Gilly87

Shure SE215: isolates like high-end ergofit stage monitors, has good bass without being overwhelming, and awesome mids for the price.
  Quote: 





vemon said:


> Would you suggest any good bass earphone under 100$ (prefer iem with good isolation) for ZO 2.3. I want to use it to listen some house music (progressive, trance, remix, dance) or Kpop. Thank you


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





mitchm said:


>





> I Should note my source would be the Mac Book and Mog music service Kbps 320 would that change your view. I don't listen at high volume. My Hd 650 will be delivered soon as well as a E11 which I ordered for a HD 598 which I returned. Maybe I will try the E11 with my Samsung galaxy 3 and my GR07 at the gym because it gets pretty noisy so the E 11 may help. At home it's nice and quiet and the Mac Book gives me plenty of power so I just need a nice simple solution to enjoy the HD650. I'm for some reason attracted to the E12 but I respect your work. I could leave a desk top system in my living room where I sit but if feasible something I could carry around in the house with my Mac Book would be nice but of course I want a good experience. Also do I need a Dac included with the MacBook. Thanks.


 
  Quote: 





mitchm said:


> I looked at the Leckerton stock on their website they are out of stock until June on the UHA 6 mk 2 the other UHA 6 models are discontinued. The model 4 is available. I know you suggested the 6. Nice size so your suggested is well received.


 
   
  Try the E11 first and see how it goes. At worst, it will still give you an indicator on how you want your HD650 to be driven. The better way will be to have a decent desktop amp/DAC plus an amp for portable, but you will have to double your budget for two units. If you like to save a bit but still want really good sound quality, then consider a separated USB DAC, plus an portable amp. The would open up a lot more options.
   
  Quote: 





gopanthersgo1 said:


> Is your Woodwind review up yet?


 
   
Here. It will be added to this thread if I am able to get the final release.


----------



## Gilly87

Ooolala...now you have me curious about the Woodwind...


----------



## Mitchm

clieos said:


> Try the E11 first and see how it goes. At worst, it will still give you an indicator on how you want your HD650 to be driven. The better way will be to have a decent desktop amp/DAC plus an amp for portable, but you will have to double your budget for two units. If you like to save a bit but still want really good sound quality, then consider a separated USB DAC, plus an portable amp. The would open up a lot more options.
> 
> 
> Not sure what that option would be. Are you thinking of something like the fiio e9/o7or e17 combo?
> Does that have really good SQ. I have also a ZVOX audio unit for my TV I don't know if that is a option ? thanks


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





mitchm said:


> Not sure what that option would be. Are you thinking of something like the fiio e9/o7or e17 combo?
> Does that have really good SQ. I have also a ZVOX audio unit for my TV I don't know if that is a option ? thanks


 
   
  I am thinking something more high-end, given the headphone we are talking about. E17 sounds a little different from E11, but the overall SQ is comparable between the two. So if you want something better than E11, you need to go higher up. That's why I suggest you give E11 a listen first, then you can decide whether it is good enough or not.


----------



## Mitchm

Quote: 





clieos said:


> I am thinking something more high-end, given the headphone we are talking about. E17 sounds a little different from E11, but the overall SQ is comparable between the two. So if you want something better than E11, you need to go higher up. That's why I suggest you give E11 a listen first, then you can decide whether it is good enough or not.


 
  Okay you surprised me with the E17 Amp/Dac suggestion, I guess you mean the stand alone E17 not with the E9. You had me looking for desk tops without one of your shoot outs which was difficult. I enjoy the shootouts that is to say keep up the good work. I was thinking the Schilt 200.00 combo and the O2 combo and tubes that so many are suggesting. I was thinking what am I getting myself into and having second thoughts about the HD 650 it was becoming more than I wanted to get into. The E17 is 139.00 which is the same or 10.00 more than the E12. If you say so I will pull the trigger. Maybe your thinking E17 because I'm using the MacBook now at low volume and I'm satisfied. I'm 60 years old so I don't blast the music.  We are on the same page the E17 right? Thanks for your reply.


----------



## Mitchm

Quote: 





mitchm said:


> Okay you surprised me with the E17 Amp/Dac suggestion, I guess you mean the stand alone E17 not with the E9. You had me looking for desk tops without one of your shoot outs which was difficult. I enjoy the shootouts that is to say keep up the good work. I was thinking the Schilt 200.00 combo and the O2 combo and tubes that so many are suggesting. I was thinking what am I getting myself into and having second thoughts about the HD 650 it was becoming more than I wanted to get into. The E17 is 139.00 which is the same or 10.00 more than the E12. If you say so I will pull the trigger. Maybe your thinking E17 because I'm using the MacBook now at low volume and I'm satisfied. I'm 60 years old so I don't blast the music.  We are on the same page the E17 right? Thanks for your reply.


 
  I looked at the Fii0 site and it said it runs HP's up to 150ohm, Amazon said up to 300ohms and Micca said up to 600ohms. You got to love it.


----------



## Evshrug

mitchm said:


> I looked at the Fii0 site and it said it runs HP's up to 150ohm, Amazon said up to 300ohms and Micca said up to 600ohms. You got to love it.



Lol I hear you, but obviously a salesman's definition of "Runs up to Xxx ohms!" is a bit misleading, as you saw. The impedance of a headphone is (unfortunately) just part of the story, sensitivity is the other part. I admit, I myself haven't learned a formula to follow, but basically if you see a manufacturer publish how many mW @ an ohm rating close to your headphones (which thankfully FiiO usually publishes three or more power into ohm ratings), you'll know which amps are more powerful, and give you more headroom and control to work with.

One thing I've noticed with my Q701, I have to turn the volume setting on my iPod much higher to hear the same "volume" loudness as my AD700 or Etymotic IEMs. So sometimes you simply need a more powerful amp to reach normal listening levels. The other thing a powerful amp does is it can handle voltage swings better... For instance, I have an E12 (and a nice desktop tube amp), and these amps at listening volume distinctly help my headphones have more controlled and musical bass, as well as reducing how sharp (sometimes painful) the higher trebles can sound.

Does this help any?


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





mitchm said:


> Okay you surprised me with the E17 Amp/Dac suggestion, I guess you mean the stand alone E17 not with the E9. You had me looking for desk tops without one of your shoot outs which was difficult. I enjoy the shootouts that is to say keep up the good work. I was thinking the Schilt 200.00 combo and the O2 combo and tubes that so many are suggesting. I was thinking what am I getting myself into and having second thoughts about the HD 650 it was becoming more than I wanted to get into. The E17 is 139.00 which is the same or 10.00 more than the E12. If you say so I will pull the trigger. Maybe your thinking E17 because I'm using the MacBook now at low volume and I'm satisfied. I'm 60 years old so I don't blast the music.  We are on the same page the E17 right? Thanks for your reply.


 
   
  If there is no particular reason from stopping you, E17 should do well enough. It is not the best ever but it is far from being weak or bad sounding either. It is kind of at the middle point of portable amp but the price is affordable so there really isn't much to complaint about.


----------



## harryyeo

ClieOS, do you think it's a good idea to use the E12 with earbuds like PK1 or Dragon 2?


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





harryyeo said:


> ClieOS, do you think it's a good idea to use the E12 with earbuds like PK1 or Dragon 2?


 

 Technically, E12 should drive both without any problem. Synergy wise, I would consider E12 to go better with earbuds than IEM because earbuds have much wider soundstage than IEM so they will compensate for E12 lack of a wide soundstage.


----------



## Mitchm

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Lol I hear you, but obviously a salesman's definition of "Runs up to Xxx ohms!" is a bit misleading, as you saw. The impedance of a headphone is (unfortunately) just part of the story, sensitivity is the other part. I admit, I myself haven't learned a formula to follow, but basically if you see a manufacturer publish how many mW @ an ohm rating close to your headphones (which thankfully FiiO usually publishes three or more power into ohm ratings), you'll know which amps are more powerful, and give you more headroom and control to work with.
> 
> One thing I've noticed with my Q701, I have to turn the volume setting on my iPod much higher to hear the same "volume" loudness as my AD700 or Etymotic IEMs. So sometimes you simply need a more powerful amp to reach normal listening levels. The other thing a powerful amp does is it can handle voltage swings better... For instance, I have an E12 (and a nice desktop tube amp), and these amps at listening volume distinctly help my headphones have more controlled and musical bass, as well as reducing how sharp (sometimes painful) the higher trebles can sound.
> 
> Does this help any?


 
  I think I understand. I had the HD598 for a week using it mostly on my Mac Book un amped and I think I felt some swings, for a while it felt full and rich in sound and then it didn't. So I guess a good amp would fill that void. Is that what your saying? My A900x feels very good most of the time un amped. This issue of Amps and Dacs is stretching out my mind a little more then I was willing to go LOL. I'm still wondering how good my MacBook is as far as Amp and Dacs are concerned. It sounds nice you have a Tube set up and the E12. CLieOS is suggesting the E17k I do like the idea of having a portable device with an equalizer so I can change settings. Another Head Flier said the E17 is very good Dac so later I could add the O2 amp if one desires. What say you?


----------



## Mitchm

Quote: 





mitchm said:


> I think I understand. I had the HD598 for a week using it mostly on my Mac Book un amped and I think I felt some swings, for a while it felt full and rich in sound and then it didn't. So I guess a good amp would fill that void. Is that what your saying? My A900x feels very good most of the time un amped. This issue of Amps and Dacs is stretching out my mind a little more then I was willing to go LOL. I'm still wondering how good my MacBook is as far as Amp and Dacs are concerned. It sounds nice you have a Tube set up and the E12. CLieOS is suggesting the E17k I do like the idea of having a portable device with an equalizer so I can change settings. Another Head Flier said the E17 is very good Dac so later I could add the O2 amp if one desires. What say you?


 
  I have a question on the E12 sounds like a great amp but now what do u do for a Dac?


----------



## Evshrug

mitchm said:


> I think I understand. I had the HD598 for a week using it mostly on my Mac Book un amped and I think I felt some swings, for a while it felt full and rich in sound and then it didn't. So I guess a good amp would fill that void. Is that what your saying? My A900x feels very good most of the time un amped. This issue of Amps and Dacs is stretching out my mind a little more then I was willing to go LOL. I'm still wondering how good my MacBook is as far as Amp and Dacs are concerned. It sounds nice you have a Tube set up and the E12. CLieOS is suggesting the E17k I do like the idea of having a portable device with an equalizer so I can change settings. Another Head Flier said the E17 is very good Dac so later I could add the O2 amp if one desires. What say you?




Well... Sometimes it's good to stretch your mind out, keeps you able to learn which is a healthy thing indeed. In general, I highly respect ClieOS' opinion, I bought my first amp (with less knowledge than you have now) based on his review and info about 4 and a half years ago, so if his review and suggestion sound good to you, I'd say you'll have a pretty good product and you'll understand what he was talking about once you get it.

Personally, I had an iBook, PowerBook G4, and a MacBook Pro, and they all had above average built-in DACs and amps. I think that was partially due to Apple's stance that their products were designed for media creation, and partially because Steve Jobs was a big music fan. I don't think your MacBook has quite the quality of my Pro model (and no optical output to connect to an external DAC that way), but my girlfriend has one like yours and it does a better job with audio than the rather noisy headphone jacks on the motherboard of the Windows machine I just built myself. So I don't think your MacBook needs a DAC as much, but it probably would benefit from one. Definitely, the 300 Ohm Sennheiser HD650 will dampen the sound a lot more than the 50 ohm HD598 you used before, and the E17's amping half will probably be only "just" enough amp for them (it's an entry-level amp, after all, that you're pairing with a venerable flagship headphone).

 I dunno... I guess the good thing is, you could go ahead and buy the E17, and later if you want, you could buy the FiiO E09k desktop amp. The E17 actually docks into the E09k and operates purely in DAC mode, and the E09k does the heavy lifting as an amp. The E09k is about three times as powerful an amp as the E17, and really only slightly less "transportable" than the odd-shaped Objective2 amp you mentioned, that typically wouldn't fit in a pocket either anyway. So you can buy the E17 and see how you like it, and later on you have a nicely integrated option to upgrade to without making the E17 redundant. I think that was a pretty smart design by FiiO (though of course, any external DAC can be connected to another external amp).



mitchm said:


> I have a question on the E12 sounds like a great amp but now what do u do for a Dac?



You could just continue using the DAC built-in to your MacBook, or later on plug in a DAC like the HRT Music Streamer II or an ODAC (which I borrowed once, but couldn't get to work on my home built computer, I guess I am missing a driver or something). Any external DAC would do. FWIR, the E12 (Mont Blanc) has about as much power as an E09k desktop amp, which is pretty cool for a portable amp. I like my E12 very much.

If you lived in Pittsburgh, I'd be more than happy to meet and share an audition of my gear, though I haven't sampled as much as ClieOS has.


----------



## Mitchm

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Well... Sometimes it's good to stretch your mind out, keeps you able to learn which is a healthy thing indeed. In general, I highly respect ClieOS' opinion, I bought my first amp (with less knowledge than you have now) based on his review and info about 4 and a half years ago, so if his review and suggestion sound good to you, I'd say you'll have a pretty good product and you'll understand what he was talking about once you get it.
> 
> Personally, I had an iBook, PowerBook G4, and a MacBook Pro, and they all had above average built-in DACs and amps. I think that was partially due to Apple's stance that their products were designed for media creation, and partially because Steve Jobs was a big music fan. I don't think your MacBook has quite the quality of my Pro model (and no optical output to connect to an external DAC that way), but my girlfriend has one like yours and it does a better job with audio than the rather noisy headphone jacks on the motherboard of the Windows machine I just built myself. So I don't think your MacBook needs a DAC as much, but it probably would benefit from one. Definitely, the 300 Ohm Sennheiser HD650 will dampen the sound a lot more than the 50 ohm HD598 you used before, and the E17's amping half will probably be only "just" enough amp for them (it's an entry-level amp, after all, that you're pairing with a venerable flagship headphone).
> 
> ...


 
  That's a very nice offer but I live in Monterey, CA. Wow you gave me a lot of information that's very nice of you. My first thought when I started looking into powering the HD 650 was the E12 a lot of attention was on the E12 because it was new and powerful so it caught my attention. The E12 is rated higher in ClieOS reviews than the E17 I wasn't sure why he didn't recommend the E12. He first suggested the Leckerton 6 MKll which wasn't available. I also was surprise with his E17 suggestion, but then I thought like you I could also purchase the E09k and it sounds like a good deal. But a lot of people suggested the desk top which I'm sure is very good, but the portable would be so versatile. The E17 has the adjustments in sound and has a Dac. I'm glad you have experience  with the Mac and your saying with the E12 and Mac I may not need another Dac. The only other thing was the equalizer issue which maybe you know about. The Mog service doesn't have an equalizer but still sounds great. The Mac book equalizer on Itunes which I don't use much is sort of poor wouldn't you agree? CLieOS did rate the SQ much better with the E12 in his reviews but he didn't comment on the E17 with the E9k SQ. I just received a E11 tonight which I haven't opened because I ordered it for the HD598 which I returned so I may send it back and I'm sure Micca would prefer I not open it if I'm going to return it. I'm wanting to try it because I have never tried one. I feel you educated me thanks. What would you do sounds like I have some good choices now. It maybe better than the Schitt.


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





mitchm said:


> .. CLieOS did rate the SQ much better with the E12 in his reviews but he didn't comment on the E17 with the E9k SQ....


 
  It has been mentioned in the E17 review. E9 / E09K doesn't out perform E17 in lower volume. What you get from E09K is more power and higher volume output.


----------



## Mitchm

Quote: 





clieos said:


> It has been mentioned in the E17 review. E9 / E09K doesn't out perform E17 in lower volume. What you get from E09K is more power and higher volume output.


 
  Yes I do listen in lower volume your very thoughtful. It's amazing how you can detail your thoughts on all these variations, of so much equipment.!


----------



## steveting99

Quote: 





clieos said:


> ...If you like to save a bit but still want really good sound quality, then consider a separated USB DAC, plus an portable amp. The would open up a lot more options.


 
   
  Hi ClieOS, what would you consider to be a great portable USB DAC? I'm interested in getting one that can bypass the smartphone's DAC.
   
  Steve


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





steveting99 said:


> Hi ClieOS, what would you consider to be a great portable USB DAC? I'm interested in getting one that can bypass the smartphone's DAC.
> 
> Steve


 
   
  Great or not might have less to do with it. First, you'll need a smartphone that has USB Audio Class driver (i.e. S3, note II, etc) and has enough power supply for the USB DAC. Here is a list that works with Android: http://www.head-fi.org/t/595071/android-phones-and-usb-dacs/480#post_8770762
   
  If you have Apple iPhone, then the list is much shorter and much much more expensive.


----------



## Mitchm

Quote: 





clieos said:


> It has been mentioned in the E17 review. E9 / E09K doesn't out perform E17 in lower volume. What you get from E09K is more power and higher volume


 
  Okay I got my feet wet and opened up the E11. My first impression as this is my first Amp, overall sound improved with the Mac Book and the A900x, it sounds fuller and richer I enjoy the SQ more. The USB charge as u know doesn't work at the same time your listening. 
  Then I tried it with the GR07 MKll and the Samsung 3 at first I thought their wasn't much improvement, then I checked for better sound volume which I got and need a little for a busy gym. Wow I wasn't ready for the A900x to improve very nice! Now I haven't received the HD650 yet for a test drive. I did see a good deal for the E09K but like u said I really my not need it. The pricing on the E17 is kind of standard, I may spend a little more, but get a good deal if I buy both. I feel I'm on a nice track to having a great set up. Thanks to you and Evshrug.
   
  Mitch


----------



## Evshrug

mitchm said:


> Wow you gave me a lot of information that's very nice of you.




I like helping, but like I said I defer to ClieOS... he has a broader experience, and of course it's his thread, so it's his show. I don't want to take over, and I'm sure he gets pleasure out of using his experience to make recommendations. Nice guy.

I'm glad you opened the E11. They resell pretty easily, even if you don't return it to Micca. Good to understand what a dedicated amp will do, and if you get something else you'll have two points of reference (the E11 and straight from your music player). What do you use to play music at the gym, btw? Glad you were surprised at the new quality!

I hear you about the EQ. I'll tell you what though... I used to use the EQ a lot more, before I got headphones I loved out of the box. Now, I usually only "need" EQ to lower the treble a bit if I've been listening for a while, or the E12's mild, sub-focused bass boost which I just choose sometimes for fun. But most of the time I don't even use EQ  The E07k and E17 have their independent EQs that I haven't heard, but I understand they could come in handy sometimes. 

I'm pretty sure this is where you're at, but it's what I recommend anyway: enjoy the E11 for now, and see what you think once the HD 650s arrive. You might be happy already. If it has enough power but you think you'd still like to try a DAC or want a DAC with EQ to "lift the veil" over the treble, an E17 or something may be in your future (if you got a stand-alone DAC, you still have the E11 to relegate to portable use). If the E11 DOESN'T seem to have enough power and/or the bass seems sloppy or grainy, then what you'll need is some amp with desktop-class power. *BUUUUUT ClieOS knows probably more than anyone about portable amp options,* and a bit more than me about amps in general.

I was thinking about an E17, Schiit Modi, JDS Labs ODAC, or some other external DAC for myself, but I think I'm going to get a nice soundcard for my computer instead (I play games), and I'm happy with my iPod's DAC + a line out + E12 or my Tube amp. I don't usually make purchases at a fast pace 


... Off Topic, but if I found a job out in CA, I'd move out there


----------



## Mitchm

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> I like helping, but like I said I defer to ClieOS... he has a broader experience, and of course it's his thread, so it's his show. I don't want to take over, and I'm sure he gets pleasure out of using his experience to make recommendations. Nice guy.
> 
> I'm glad you opened the E11. They resell pretty easily, even if you don't return it to Micca. Good to understand what a dedicated amp will do, and if you get something else you'll have two points of reference (the E11 and straight from your music player). What do you use to play music at the gym, btw? Glad you were surprised at the new quality!
> 
> ...


 
  I have had more discussions on Head Fi then any other site I have ever been on. I used to play music when I was in High School and at that time I felt it was very calming. After HS I was just too involved with work to play music. Just a comment on maybe what type of personalities who may get involved in this site which make them a very nice group. People who are looking for this calming factor. 
   I think I understand the need for an EQ maybe less now that the music sounds better with the amp and some minor controls. I'm using my Samsung 3 in the gym. My HD 650's which I hope is a good choice arrive Monday and then maybe I will have some more knowledge. I have read what ClieOS is talking about that the E17 is very good at SQ in those lower volume levels that I listen to. I also read your review of the E12 and watched your video which I thought was excellent thank you. I The inline jack on the E11 is just a little loose and gets knock offline a lot. At least I have some experience with a external Amp now and feel better as to why it is a good idea.
   Their are jobs in California where their is a will their is a way.


----------



## Evshrug

Just remember that the amps of the E17 and E11 are more alike than different, so if the E11 is "enough" with the HD650, the E17 should also be "enough." Plus, I think if you have a Samsung S3, I _think_ that's one of the phones that support an external DAC, so you could plug the E17 into that. IMO some day you'll want a desktop amp, but you may be happy for a while


----------



## ClieOS

Some quick impression on JDS Labs C5 vs C421 and O2 - First, C5 is definitely an overall improvement over C421-AD8620 and much closer to the neutrality of O2. The bass boost however is also noticeable boomier than C421, likely because C5 bass boost is wider. Not bad per se, but I prefer C421's bass boost a little more. C5 sounds like a 'baby O2', the only difference I have noticed so far is on the soundstage. Depth is comparable but width is about 5%~10% smaller. The small compression might leave an impression of warmth - but in close listening, it really isn't warmth or forwardness. It is in fact a smaller image IMO. However, the difference is not something most will take note of unless listen to both side by side. Overall, I'll call C5 a solid winner for now. More detail will be covered in the review.


----------



## gopanthersgo1

How is it compared to the Woodwind?


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





gopanthersgo1 said:


> How is it compared to the Woodwind?


 
   
  Haven't compared them yet, but if my memory serves me right, C5 is better but not vastly.


----------



## putente

*ClieOS*, since the C5 has an OPA2227, can you directly compare it to the c421-OPA2227 too, please?


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





putente said:


> *ClieOS*, since the C5 has an OPA2227, can you directly compare it to the c421-OPA2227 too, please?


 

 The C421-OPA2227 in the review is a loan unit from JDS and has been returned quite some time ago. But given I do prefer C421-AD8620 over C421-OPA2227, and the fact that I am not that big of a fan on OPA2227, I think it all points to an excellent designed C5. I always find OPA2227 to be grainy and forward in cmoy (and a lesser degree in C421). But I didn't notice any of that on C5.


----------



## putente

Quote: 





clieos said:


> The C421-OPA2227 in the review is a loan unit from JDS and has been returned quite some time ago. But given I do prefer C421-AD8620 over C421-OPA2227, and the fact that I am not that big of a fan on OPA2227, I think it all points to an excellent designed C5. I always find OPA2227 to be grainy and forward in cmoy (and a lesser degree in C421). But I didn't notice any of that on C5.


 
   
  Thanks!


----------



## Mitchm

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Just remember that the amps of the E17 and E11 are more alike than different, so if the E11 is "enough" with the HD650, the E17 should also be "enough." Plus, I think if you have a Samsung S3, I _think_ that's one of the phones that support an external DAC, so you could plug the E17 into that. IMO some day you'll want a desktop amp, but you may be happy for a while


 
  Hi
  I used the E11 today with the GR07 and it was a nice improvement. It's like what you said about amps it took out the swings and gave a nice and steady strong flow. I spoke with my son today and I may give him the E11 instead of paying the charges fro a return and since it's so nice. Now if I do go with the E17 for a while, I know it matches up with the E9k but can I match up to other Amps. Can I use tube Amps later on since the E17 already has Dac?


----------



## Mitchm

Quote: 





mitchm said:


> Okay I got my feet wet and opened up the E11. My first impression as this is my first Amp, overall sound improved with the Mac Book and the A900x, it sounds fuller and richer I enjoy the SQ more. The USB charge as u know doesn't work at the same time your listening.
> Then I tried it with the GR07 MKll and the Samsung 3 at first I thought their wasn't much improvement, then I checked for better sound volume which I got and need a little for a busy gym. Wow I wasn't ready for the A900x to improve very nice! Now I haven't received the HD650 yet for a test drive. I did see a good deal for the E09K but like u said I really my not need it. The pricing on the E17 is kind of standard, I may spend a little more, but get a good deal if I buy both. I feel I'm on a nice track to having a great set up. Thanks to you and Evshrug.
> 
> Mitch


 
   
  Quote: 





mitchm said:


> Hi
> I used the E11 today with the GR07 and it was a nice improvement. It's like what you said about amps it took out the swings and gave a nice and steady strong flow. I spoke with my son today and I may give him the E11 instead of paying the charges fro a return and since it's so nice. Now if I do go with the E17 for a while, I know it matches up with the E9k but can I match up to other Amps. Can I use tube Amps later on since the E17 already has Dac?


----------



## Evshrug

Mitch,
You can indeed use the E17 for now as an all-in-one "audio chipset" aka DAC/amp combo, and later on buy the (cheap) line-out adapter for the E17 that feeds a clean line-out signal from the E17 to whatever amp you choose. Basically, the dock in the E09k is just a built-in version of this line-out adapter, the appeal is in the E09k itself being a capable value for the money as a desktop amp, and the tidiness of the setup. Though the E09k isn't itself a DAC, it does have have connections that can pass the digital signal through to the docking connector, meaning you can leave your computer wired up to the E9 and when you get home, you just drop the E17 into the dock to transform from portable to desktop setup.

If you do decide to try a tube amp (like I did), I do have one I love and can recommend based on sound quality and hand-craftsmanship.


----------



## Mitchm

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Mitch,
> You can indeed use the E17 for now as an all-in-one "audio chipset" aka DAC/amp combo, and later on buy the (cheap) line-out adapter for the E17 that feeds a clean line-out signal from the E17 to whatever amp you choose. Basically, the dock in the E09k is just a built-in version of this line-out adapter, the appeal is in the E09k itself being a capable value for the money as a desktop amp, and the tidiness of the setup. Though the E09k isn't itself a DAC, it does have have connections that can pass the digital signal through to the docking connector, meaning you can leave your computer wired up to the E9 and when you get home, you just drop the E17 into the dock to transform from portable to desktop setup.
> 
> If you do decide to try a tube amp (like I did), I do have one I love and can recommend based on sound quality and hand-craftsmanship.Hi


 
  Hi ClieOS and Evshrug,
   
  Just thought I should report back on my experience, I received my HD 650 today. The Head Flier web site is moving me along quickly. So far I using my 2009 Mac Book with Mog music service mostly, with 320Kbps and my E11. I'm getting good sound volume from my Mac Book and with the E11 it enriches the sound quality. I believe the HD650 is a keeper. I have no experience with tubes or higher quality Amps/Dacs if these issues were not brought up I think I would be satisfied. I still have a few days to return  the E11 and move higher up the food chain. I'm running the E11 on "H" gain and zero for equalizer. Can you suggest a budget tube amp.  Do I need a a Dac with the MacBook. If I switch to the E17 what can I expect as far as an improvement in sound quality. I'm open for suggestions now that I have a little more experience. I notice last night while listening to the A900x it was heavier bass and some distortion in some songs. For a while I thought it couldn't get any better then I notice what I just mentioned. The HD650 sounds more natural not as bass heavy a higher quality overall. Please let me know your thoughts. 
  Thank you.


----------



## ClieOS

If you really think you want something better than E11, then forget about E17 and aim for something higher. Do you have a budget in mind? Since we are talking about tube amp, does it means portability isn't a requirement?


----------



## Mitchm

Quote: 





clieos said:


> If you really think you want something better than E11, then forget about E17 and aim for something higher. Do you have a budget in mind? Since we are talking about tube amp, does it means portability isn't a requirement?


 
  I can keep the E11 for a portable if it's not a big difference from the E17. The E11's sound great to me or it's more the HD650. The E11 does come loose a little from the MacBook just got to push it back in. Will a 150.00 to 225.00 budget for a tube amp make a big difference and will I still need a Dac? Thanks


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





mitchm said:


> I can keep the E11 for a portable if it's not a big difference from the E17. The E11's sound great to me or it's more the HD650. The E11 does come loose a little from the MacBook just got to push it back in. Will a 150.00 to 225.00 budget for a tube amp make a big difference and will I still need a Dac? Thanks


 
   
  You can get a really cheap tube amp for that budget (search eBay for 'Indeed G3') but I am not sure it will actually be better than E11. You budget will fit a Modi + Magni combo from Schiit Audio. I haven't heard it myself but might worth a look since impression are generally very positive. One USB DAC+amp  that I do know is great is the iFi Audio iDAC, but it is a bit over your budget.


----------



## Mitchm

Quote: 





clieos said:


> You can get a really cheap tube amp for that budget (search eBay for 'Indeed G3') but I am not sure it will actually be better than E11. You budget will fit a Modi + Magni combo from Schiit Audio. I haven't heard it myself but might worth a look since impression are generally very positive. One USB DAC+amp  that I do know is great is the iFi Audio iDAC, but it is a bit over your budget.


 
  If your not sure the G3 will be a nice difference, I will just hold I that one. I heard the MM combo is nice but it would have to be worth over the e11 but if you have not tried it I can wait, I believe like you, others like it a lot. The IFI audio is not easy to find. Also reliability is also a big issue when reviews bring up issues it could be a deal killer. Like we talk about before the volume doesn't have to go very high, and on the e11 volume seems to be enough.  Thanks ClieOS


----------



## Evshrug

Just to say, the HD650 isn't that "dry" of a headphone from what I've read. A "liquid" tube amp may not be required for synergy... possibly still fun though. Did you decide the HD650 was large enough not to bother with a portable? I had also been tempted by the Schiit gear, but mostly for testing or experience purposes.


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





mitchm said:


> If your not sure the G3 will be a nice difference, I will just hold I that one. I heard the MM combo is nice but it would have to be worth over the e11 but if you have not tried it I can wait, I believe like you, others like it a lot. The IFI audio is not easy to find. Also reliability is also a big issue when reviews bring up issues it could be a deal killer. Like we talk about before the volume doesn't have to go very high, and on the e11 volume seems to be enough.  Thanks ClieOS


 
   
  Reliability? I am not aware that iFi has any build quality. In fact, they have some of the best build quality I have seen on desktop gear. I do agree iFi tends to be harder to find, and sometime price can vary by a lot. That's another thing you need to watch out - where you live also limits what you can buy (sensibly).


----------



## Mitchm

Quote: 





clieos said:


> Reliability? I am not aware that iFi has any build quality. In fact, they have some of the best build quality I have seen on desktop gear. I do agree iFi tends to be harder to find, and sometime price can vary by a lot. That's another thing you need to watch out - where you live also limits what you can buy (sensibly).


 
  I meant reliability in general not in particular one company, just saying it's an important consideration.


----------



## reff

i was just looking for such comparison, thanks for the effort and the insights..


----------



## Mitchm

Quote: 





mitchm said:


> If your not sure the G3 will be a nice difference, I will just hold I that one. I heard the MM combo is nice but it would have to be worth over the e11 but if you have not tried it I can wait, I believe like you, others like it a lot. The IFI audio is not easy to find. Also reliability is also a big issue when reviews bring up issues it could be a deal killer. Like we talk about before the volume doesn't have to go very high, and on the e11 volume seems to be enough.  Thanks ClieOS


 
   I started to look at your top pick the O2 will that pair well with HD650? I started to order the Little Dot MK1 plus but they said not to pair it with high impedance HP. Also the Jds site said the O2 is good up to 250 Ohms so I just wanted to clear these issues up.Thanks


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





mitchm said:


> I started to look at your top pick the O2 will that pair well with HD650? I started to order the Little Dot MK1 plus but they said not to pair it with high impedance HP. Also the Jds site said the O2 is good up to 250 Ohms so I just wanted to clear these issues up.Thanks


 

 There is no reason why O2 won't drive HD650. JDS Labs is only stating a general recommendation from NwAvGuy, you have to look into individual cases.


----------



## Bill-P

Yeah, when I still had them, my DT880 600 Ohm could be driven by O2 with little problem. There's no reason why O2 should have problem driving headphones that have the same sensitivity with lower impedance.


----------



## Mitchm

Quote: 





bill-p said:


> Yeah, when I still had them, my DT880 600 Ohm could be driven by O2 with little problem. There's no reason why O2 should have problem driving headphones that have the same sensitivity with lower impedance.


 
  Ok thats good to know. I was also thinking of the little dot 1 plus but their site said it's not for high impedance HP's there fore my thoughts moved to the O2. Thanks


----------



## ClieOS

As general rule of thumb, if an amp is said to be not suitable for high impedance load, most likely it is because it doesn't have enough gain. This means it doesn't output high enough voltage so volume will not be high enough for high impedance headphone that are often low in sensitivity. If an amp is said to be not suitable for low impedance load, it could that it has high output impedance, low current output, or being noisy (hiss)


----------



## Mitchm

Quote: 





clieos said:


> As general rule of thumb, if an amp is said to be not suitable for high impedance load, most likely it is because it doesn't have enough gain. This means it doesn't output high enough voltage so volume will not be high enough for high impedance headphone that are often low in sensitivity. If an amp is said to be not suitable for low impedance load, it could that it has high output impedance, low current output, or being noisy (hiss)


 
  Thank you


----------



## Emospence

Just gonna.. Bookmark this thread real quick..


----------



## Emospence

Since C421 has been replaced by C5, I was wondering if you had any experience with it, and how it compares with cMoyBB?


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





emospence said:


> Since C421 has been replaced by C5, I was wondering if you had any experience with it, and how it compares with cMoyBB?


 
   
  Impression is at page 20.
   
  There is no comparison between cmoyBB to C5. The improvement is large enough to call it 'night and day'.


----------



## Mitchm

Hi ClieOS
   
  Just received my O2 this afternoon and the amp appears wonderful. But I do have some questions. When using my Mog music service 320Kbps and the HD650 some songs seem to have so much bass as if to a point of distortion. I pressed in on the button of the O2 which I guess is higher frequency which sounds great on non bass songs but when deep bass hits on the song it can sound distorted. I went to my Tunes and on the ESQ I put the  bass reducer on  and I thought everything was clearer and sounded great. First I thought the HUD650 may be at fault but I don't know because the bass reducer removed the distortion. Is their any ESQ for the Mac I could use that works with my  music server?


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





mitchm said:


> Hi ClieOS
> 
> Just received my O2 this afternoon and the amp appears wonderful. But I do have some questions. When using my Mog music service 320Kbps and the HD650 some songs seem to have so much bass as if to a point of distortion. I pressed in on* the button of the O2* which I guess is higher frequency which sounds great on non bass songs but when deep bass hits on the song it can sound distorted. I went to my Tunes and on the ESQ I put the  bass reducer on  and I thought everything was clearer and sounded great. First I thought the HUD650 may be at fault but I don't know because the bass reducer removed the distortion. Is their any ESQ for the Mac I could use that works with my  music server?


 
   
  There are two buttons on O2: power and gain. My guess is the source that has problem. Likely it is clipping because the source is not able to output the voltage needed. Instead of using EQ, trying lowering the volume on the source.


----------



## Mitchm

Quote: 





clieos said:


> There are two buttons on O2: power and gain. My guess is the source that has problem. Likely it is clipping because the source is not able to output the voltage needed. Instead of using EQ, trying lowering the volume on the source.


 
  Yes I do mean the gain switch on the O2 I have it pushed in, is that correct with the HD650? The O2 instructions said to turn up the volume on source to 60-80%. I tried it at 50% on the Mac Book and turned the volume up on the O2, is that what your suggesting?  So far it's better, I was scared it maybe faulty HD650 at first. I"m not using a Dac and I think it sounds great would you agree that I don't need one with the MacBook?  Thanks ClieOS


----------



## Mitchm

Quote: 





mitchm said:


> Yes I do mean the gain switch on the O2 I have it pushed in, is that correct with the HD650? The O2 instructions said to turn up the volume on source to 60-80%. I tried it at 50% on the Mac Book and turned the volume up on the O2, is that what your suggesting?  So far it's better, I was scared it maybe faulty HD650 at first. I"m not using a Dac and I think it sounds great would you agree that I don't need one with the MacBook?  Thanks ClieOS


 
  I also noticed when I went into my music server the volume was turned all the way up so I turned that down to about 70%. So far it's much better. Thanks


----------



## ClieOS

Yep, if it gets better when you turn the volume down on the source and volume up on the O2, then it is a good indicator that the source is clipping before.


----------



## Mitchm

Quote: 





clieos said:


> Yep, if it gets better when you turn the volume down on the source and volume up on the O2, then it is a good indicator that the source is clipping before.


 
  Yes, I just have to remember I have three volume switches. It sounded excellent today. Thanks


----------



## Emospence

Will I have any issues amping my Clip+, since it only has HP out and no LOD?


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





emospence said:


> Will I have any issues amping my Clip+, since it only has HP out and no LOD?


 
   
  The one prerequisite for getting the best out of double amping is, the headphone-out should be relatively clean sounding, without any obvious coloration, distortion and noise. Clip+ does fit into that description so double amping shouldn't be any problem. Just be sure to keep the Clip+ in relatively high volume (>90%) and use the amp to control volume.


----------



## posteriorpounde

clieos said:


> The one prerequisite for getting the best out of double amping is, the headphone-out should be relatively clean sounding, without any obvious coloration, distortion and noise. Clip+ does fit into that description so double amping shouldn't be any problem. Just be sure to keep the Clip+ in relatively high volume (>90%) and use the amp to control volume.




What's your stance on double amping with the iphone 5? The 30 pin adapter + lod combo is rather bulky, so I was wondering if the hp out was a viable option.


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





posteriorpounde said:


> What's your stance on double amping with the iphone 5? The 30 pin adapter + lod combo is rather bulky, so I was wondering if the hp out was a viable option.


 
   
  Don't own or use a iP5 before to have any real opinion about double amping it. But if you are interested in my take on Lightning adapter vs. Nano 7G's headphone-out, here you go:
   
   
  Quote: 





clieos said:


> ...
> The RMAA result on the adapter looks very clean and rather good, indicating that the Wolfson DAC inside the adapter is as good as the Nano 7 internal DAC. But the catch is that it isn’t much better when compared to Nano 7 headphone-out without load (as used in double amping). In fact, Nano 7 headphone-out offers better channel separation. Further A/Bing also confirms that the line-out really doesn’t sound audibly better than just double amp the headphone-out. So the conclusion is, there is really no need to use the adapter for its line-out on a portable setup. You will be just as good with double amping. To do so, just adjust the volume to max then drop to three steps lower, which should give you almost the same voltage (0.94Vrms) as line-out and shouldn’t clip your portable amp.
> ...


----------



## Bill-P

Quote: 





posteriorpounde said:


> What's your stance on double amping with the iphone 5? The 30 pin adapter + lod combo is rather bulky, so I was wondering if the hp out was a viable option.


 
   
  I'll chime in on this then. I use my iPhone 5 output with the Leckerton UHA-6S Mk.II regularly, and it's just as clean as the 30-pin adapter.


----------



## posteriorpounde

bill-p said:


> I'll chime in on this then. I use my iPhone 5 output with the Leckerton UHA-6S Mk.II regularly, and it's just as clean as the 30-pin adapter.




Great to hear. Just to clarify, you cant use a dac with the iP5 without the 30 pin, and can only use an amp? So are amp/dac single units incompatible with the iP5, or is there an analog input to just use the amp?


----------



## ClieOS

DAC that are compatible to iP5 needs a special chip inside and generally cost around $500 or so. UH-6 MK2 isn't one of them.


----------



## Emospence

Quote: 





clieos said:


> The one prerequisite for getting the best out of double amping is, the headphone-out should be relatively clean sounding, without any obvious coloration, distortion and noise. Clip+ does fit into that description so double amping shouldn't be any problem. Just be sure to keep the Clip+ in relatively high volume (>90%) and use the amp to control volume.


 
  Thanks for the info, as usual


----------



## posteriorpounde

so dual amping is the most cost effective way to amplify an iP5?



clieos said:


> DAC that are compatible to iP5 needs a special chip inside and generally cost around $500 or so. UH-6 MK2 isn't one of them.


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





posteriorpounde said:


> so dual amping is the most cost effective way to amplify an iP5?


 
   
  I'll say yes.


----------



## posteriorpounde

Are you planning on updating this with the C&C BH? Or did you nix that idea


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





posteriorpounde said:


> Are you planning on updating this with the C&C BH? Or did you nix that idea


 

 I just receive it yesterday actually.
   
  Here is some quick impression: RMAA measurement is all fine. Flat FR and good power output, very low output impedance on 'output 1'. It is slightly on the brighter side as it tends to highlight micro-detail a tap more. Soundstage is pretty good as well. However, texture is less than full and bass hit is noticeably weak. Almost like an opposite of FiiO E11, and doesn't feel like it is offering any tight control. Bass booster isn't just boosting bass, it also boosts treble as well, which is rather weird. Soundstage boost is like a slightly over-implemented crossfeed. Sometime it is nice while some time it adds too much resonance into the mix. Overall, I'll say it is right there with E11 - better in soundstage and detail, but lose out in texture and control.


----------



## posteriorpounde

clieos said:


> I just receive it yesterday actually.
> 
> Here is some quick impression: RMAA measurement is all fine. Flat FR and good power output, very low output impedance on 'output 1'. It is slightly on the brighter side as it tends to highlight micro-detail a tap more. Soundstage is pretty good as well. However, texture is less than full and bass hit is noticeably weak. Almost like an opposite of FiiO E11, and doesn't feel like it is offering any tight control. Bass booster isn't just boosting bass, it also boosts treble as well, which is rather weird. Soundstage boost is like a slightly over-implemented crossfeed. Sometime it is nice while some time it adds too much resonance into the mix. Overall, I'll say it is right there with E11 - better in soundstage and detail, but lose out in texture and control.




Would you say it's a cold or thin amp?


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





posteriorpounde said:


> Would you say it's a cold or thin amp?


 

 Yes, slightly to the thin side because lower mid to bass carry very little wieght. Though I won't call it cold, it is on the brighter side of things.


----------



## CanCrazed

ClieOS,
   
Any thoughts on the NuForce Icon iDo?  Surprised it gets so little attention being a DAC/Amp for only $149.  About the same size as the Objective2.  Sure, not exactly "portable" since it needs a DC adaptor.  But still, pretty small for all it does.


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





cancrazed said:


> ClieOS,
> 
> Any thoughts on the NuForce Icon iDo?  Surprised it gets so little attention being a DAC/Amp for only $149.  About the same size as the Objective2.  Sure, not exactly "portable" since it needs a DC adaptor.  But still, pretty small for all it does.


 
   
  It is not portable and designed only for iDevice, that means it is out of my interest (I am an Android guy, a Nano 7G is as far as I am willing to pay Apple). Personally, I think people will either pay  more to get a real portable setup (CLAS and such) or a desktop rig (many newer receiver already support digital-out from iDevices). iDo is a bit too ambiguous in the middle.


----------



## erod

Is there anything out there that would compare to the O2 + ODAC combo, but usb powered, with bass boost, portable (rechargeable) and android friendly?
   
  It doesn't have to be a single device or in this price range. I just though I would ask here and see where you can point me.


----------



## ClieOS

Some have successfully use UD100 and ODAC on their Samsung Galaxy S3 / Note 2, then it is just a question of find an O2 level portable amp with bass boost. JDS Labs C5 should be really close.
   
  There are now 'designed for Android' portable amp / DAC in the market, but they are not universally functional - this is mainly because most Android smartphone still do not included the necessary USB Audio Class 2 driver in the firmware to enable USB DAC to work, even though Google has promised to add it in 4.1.1 (or is it 4.1.2?)
   
  Anyway, I don't know any all-in-one solution myself.


----------



## Bazirker

Hey guys,
   
  I've got a pair of UM Merlins for which I'm trying to work out an amping solution.  Ideally, the amp of choice would be one that can double as a USB DAC such as the Fiio E7 (which I own.)  I'll be using the amp with my smartphone, which is currently a Galaxy SII (Sprint variant) but will soon be an HTC One.  The fact that both the One is able to utilize a USB DAC makes me think that may be my preferred means of amping rather than using an aux input.  If you think I'd have better results just using an amp rather than an amp/DAC (e.g. Fiio E12 vs an E17,) then I'd be open to that.
   
  What do you feel would be the best portable amp (or amp/DAC) for my CIEM's?  I would prefer an amp which is brighter rather than warmer.  I would also prefer something similar in size to the E7, certainly not much larger.
   
  Thanks!


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





bazirker said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I've got a pair of UM Merlins for which I'm trying to work out an amping solution.  Ideally, the amp of choice would be one that can double as a USB DAC such as the Fiio E7 (which I own.)  I'll be using the amp with my smartphone, which is currently a Galaxy SII (Sprint variant) but will soon be an HTC One.  The fact that both the One is able to utilize a USB DAC makes me think that may be my preferred means of amping rather than using an aux input.  If you think I'd have better results just using an amp rather than an amp/DAC (e.g. Fiio E12 vs an E17,) then I'd be open to that.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Not every USB DAC + amp will work on Android ( and each Samsung and HTC's support will also be different), so you have to be careful since your choices are more limited than you think. Though I am into Android, I don't keep track of which USB DAC will work on which smartphone, but there is a thread in the forum you can find.


----------



## Bazirker

I'll have to research if it works, but the Leckerton UHA-4 might be what I'm after. More research, always more research.


----------



## samccy0707

great comparison! thanks for that and I am now into the JDS labs O2


----------



## CanCrazed

ClieOS,
   
  I am absolutely leaning towards the Objective 2.  But I am afraid.  Why?
  Because I've had headphone amps in the past and returned them because
  the improvements were so minimal they were not worth the hassle of using. 
I previously had the Fiio e11 and Cmoy (JDS Labs).  
   
  i intend to use an amp with my iPod Classic and either Grado SR80's
  or V-Moda M-80's.  I don't have a separate DAC (though that's
  something I may get later on, if the amp proves awesome).
   
  I don't need portability.  Will use the set-up at home.
   
  For someone like me -- a "budding budget audiophile" -- is 
  the Objective 2 worth it?  
   
  I am okay with the hassle of an extra device so long as the 
  improvement is readily discernible.  I don't have Golden Ears
  and don't use spectrographs or whatnot to measure
  frequencies. I just want to chill out to some impactful
  Classical Music and not worry about it.


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





cancrazed said:


> ....  I am okay with the hassle of an extra device so long as the
> improvement is readily discernible.  I don't have Golden Ears
> and don't use spectrographs or whatnot to measure
> frequencies. I just want to chill out to some impactful
> Classical Music and not worry about it.


 
   
  There is no one in the world but yourself that can tell you how much improvement can be qualified as 'readily discernible' or 'worth the effort'. There is also the question on whether your headphone actually benefit from the extra power or not. Anyway, here are two things I want to say:
   
  First, O2 is very far ahead of E11 or cmoy.
  2nd, get yourself a better headphone first before worrying about amp. Grado is very far from ideal for Classical music.


----------



## pixeltarian

Why No Practical Devices XM4? 

 I really wanna see a sub $300 shootout.


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





pixeltarian said:


> Why No Practical Devices XM4?
> 
> I really wanna see a sub $300 shootout.


 

 I believe XM4 is the same sounding as XM3 (which I own), but with bass boost. They both are extremely outdated by today's standard and not something I would recommend since quite E11 or cmoyBB can be on par / out performance it for half the price.
   
  Some of the top sounding amps in this review actually match and even outdo many sub$500 amp. Rising the price tag doesn't necessary buy you better amps. $200 is quite a good point before the law of diminishing return kicks in.


----------



## Bazirker

Speaking of $500 amps, how do you feel the Apex Glacier compares to the top amps of this list? Something like the UHA-4 that has a very similar amp/DAC combo and footprint...


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





bazirker said:


> Speaking of $500 amps, how do you feel the Apex Glacier compares to the top amps of this list? Something like the UHA-4 that has a very similar amp/DAC combo and footprint...


 
   
  Apex stuffs are kind of elusive as they can only be found on TTVJ (and I am half a world away). Unless I can somehow borrow one, I doubt I'll even have the chance to review it.


----------



## Bazirker

clieos said:


> Apex stuffs are kind of elusive as they can only be found on TTVJ (and I am half a world away). Unless I can somehow borrow one, I doubt I'll even have the chance to review it.




Yeah, I've been watching the for sale section of the forums for one in the US. If the price was right, I would take the plunge but certainly wouldn't get one new without audition first. 

Oh well. If the Leckerton had a bass boost feature, I'd probably be sold. Is there an op amp I could drop in if I wanted extra boom?


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





bazirker said:


> Is there an op amp I could drop in if I wanted extra boom?


 
   
  There might be some opamp that will sound a little warmer / richer than other, but not actually bass boost in the sense of a change in FR curve.


----------



## CanCrazed

Quote: 





clieos said:


> First, O2 is very far ahead of E11 or cmoy.
> 2nd, get yourself a better headphone first before worrying about amp. Grado is very far from ideal for Classical music.


 
   
  I realize this may be opening up a whole other can of worms, but...
   
  I really don't understand this whole notion that Grado cans are bad
for Classical and only good for Rock.
   
  I find the detail and great-mids they provide works quite well with
  solo, chamber and orchestral pieces.
   
  Try Carlos Kleiber's thrill-riding renditions of Beethoven's
  4th, 5th and 7th symphonies.  I'm listening to his 7th as I write.
   
  Grado's "punchiness" is on full display here and 
  to terrific effect.
   
  Stravinsky's Rite of Spring is another great example --
  in your face and hair-raising.
   
  And I'm not even using an amp!
   
  I can only imagine the improvement with a decent one.  Which is why I wondered
  if perhaps I haven't yet realized the FULL POWER of the SR80's.
   
  Perhaps one should take full advantage of the gear they already have before
  deciding to perpetually upgrade ad infinitum?  (Something that hit me just now)
   
Just my respectful two cents.  




  I do appreciate your helpful review and insights!
And I don't doubt there are better headphones.  But I'm just a budding budget audiophile 
and can't afford the sort of stupendous equipment you've probably had over the years.  
   
  So...
  I may just pull the trigger and get this here Objective 2!


----------



## ClieOS

We all pick our own poison, I guess. My choice for Classical will not be a Grado for sure. I'll pick something more neutral. But if you are sticking to Grado in the long run, you might want to save up for some tube amp down the line. Grado is known to pair very well with tube stuff.


----------



## CanCrazed

Quote: 





clieos said:


> We all pick our own poison, I guess. My choice for Classical will not be a Grado for sure. I'll pick something more neutral. But if you are sticking to Grado in the long run, you might want to save up for some tube amp down the line. Grado is known to pair very well with tube stuff.


 
  Now that you've wetted my curiosity 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


 -- what _would_ be your choice for Classical but also in the same $100 price range?


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





cancrazed said:


> Now that you've wetted my curiosity
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  I don't use full size much as I do most of my listen on-the-go. My choice of a sub-$100 earphone for Classical will be the discontinued HiFiMan RE-0. If price isn't an issue, I'll pick either K702 or DT880 as my ultimate Classical full size, or ER4S for on-the-go. I also quite happy with MDR-1R as well. As you might have noticed, I tend to pick analytical sounding 'phone for Classical.


----------



## ClieOS

JDS Labs C5 added.


----------



## Evshrug

I loved my ER•6i for almost anything, and the non-i version just as much when I demo'ed it (not sure why I let my dad talk me into the _slightly_ more bass-lifted one, though both are comparatively analytical), and I generally preferred analytical (next headphone was AD700, then years later my current Q701), I still have and occasionally use my beloved Etymotics, but now I'm also highly enjoying my M-100 which is fairly warmer than anything else I have. May become my on-the-go main headphone, since I need to be able to take them off frequently, and of course the AKG Q701 doesn't leave the house.

ClieOS, you just tried out a bunch of new amps recently, didn't you? Hope it was fun!


----------



## passion4audio

I wonder how the Aune T1 would fare amongst these amps?


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> ClieOS, you just tried out a bunch of new amps recently, didn't you? Hope it was fun!


 
   
  A few more are coming as well. Always fun to try new gears.
   
  Quote: 





passion4audio said:


> I wonder how the Aune T1 would fare amongst these amps?


 
  T1 is a bit out of the scope of this review though.


----------



## Bazirker

clieos said:


> JDS Labs C5 added.




Thanks. Any thoughts on the quality of the bass boost feature?


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





bazirker said:


> Thanks. Any thoughts on the quality of the bass boost feature?


 
   
  This should give you some idea.


----------



## Bazirker

LOL


----------



## kurt bermuda

I wanted to thank to OP and other technical reviewers on HF for their analysis of budget-conscious/economical portable amps. This particular review is packed with enough info to help people make informed decisions. I ended up skimming the whole thread and reading about half of it. I'm glad I did. If you're a newcomer to portable amps, it's worth skimming and reading this thread.
   
  I ended up getting a Leckerton UHA-4. This is a nice package for the money. Definitely portable. The rounded edges don't catch on pants pockets (however the cables will). It drives my AKG K271 with ease. The OP is correct, no noise floor.  Bravo! I do detect a little bit, let me repeat a little bit, of graininess on the highs while listening to some music but not other music. Mids are solid. Considering the voltage this amp delivers, the basses are delivered.


----------



## jjsoviet

Just read your review of the C5, and it does make me question my FiiO E12 purchase :|
   
  How much "better" is it compared to the E12, and is it worth the price? I already love my amp but I do admit the soundstage could be better as well as needing a bit more treble sparkle.


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





jjsoviet said:


> Just read your review of the C5, and it does make me question my FiiO E12 purchase :|
> 
> How much "better" is it compared to the E12, and is it worth the price? I already love my amp but I do admit the soundstage could be better as well as needing a bit more treble sparkle.


 
   
  C5 sounds more neutral / less warm than E12. But the technical difference isn't big in anyway. If you are happy with E12, I think the smart thing to do is to keep it, especially since C5 is not big in soundstage in anyway so the one area you want the most 'upgrade' won't be there.


----------



## jjsoviet

Quote: 





clieos said:


> C5 sounds more neutral / less warm than E12. But the technical difference isn't big in anyway. If you are happy with E12, I think the smart thing to do is to keep it, especially since C5 is not big in soundstage in anyway so the one area you want the most 'upgrade' won't be there.


 
   
  True, true. I love the dynamics of the E12 already but of course with this hobby there's always something better out there and thus upgraditis kicks in 
   
  How more neutral is the C5 by the way? I could always go for a more neutral sound sig to counter the slight midbass warmth of my new SRH840.


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





jjsoviet said:


> True, true. I love the dynamics of the E12 already but of course with this hobby there's always something better out there and thus upgraditis kicks in
> 
> How more neutral is the C5 by the way? I could always go for a more neutral sound sig to counter the slight midbass warmth of my new SRH840.


 
   
  C5 is more neutral, but still a bit forward overall. For a rough figure, I think I'll call C5 about 60%~70% forwardness of E12.


----------



## iguanajm

I bought the O2 after reading this review.  Thanks!!  I paired it to a Beyer DT880 250 but think it's still on the quite side.  Need to crank it up.  Not really using it efficiently - double amp'd with an idevice.


----------



## erod

Does anyone have any experience with the HRT MicroStreamer?
   
  If so, could you compare to the top three in the shootout?
   
  Other general impressions are also welcome.


----------



## Gilly87

I don't own any of the top 3 here, but I have an E11 which seemingly comes close, and it is nowhere near as dynamic with my HD650 as the uS headphone out.


----------



## Gilly87

double post


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





gilly87 said:


> I don't own any of the top 3 here, but I have an E11 which seemingly comes close, and it is nowhere near as dynamic with my HD650 as the uS headphone out.


 
   
  I won't say E11 comes particularly close to the top-tier. They are much obvious ahead of the whole pack.


----------



## Makiah S

ClieOs you think a Jds C5 will be able to power a beyer dt 880 600 ohm? My old cMoy BB powered the 250 ohms very nicely from what I remember 
   
  Wondering if the C5 will be enough... I've got a month before my Hm 801 comes in, so hopefully if need be I can try to sell it off, For better or worse I've also sent my C5 off to have it's bass boost... hlaved [factory adjustment John offered me himself] in addition to having the newest firm ware loaded


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





mshenay said:


> ClieOs you think a Jds C5 will be able to power a beyer dt 880 600 ohm? My old cMoy BB powered the 250 ohms very nicely from what I remember
> 
> Wondering if the C5 will be enough... I've got a month before my Hm 801 comes in, so hopefully if need be I can try to sell it off, For better or worse I've also sent my C5 off to have it's bass boost... hlaved [factory adjustment John offered me himself] in addition to having the newest firm ware loaded


 
   
  Don't have any 600 ohm to test it with, but I would think it might not have the power to drive 600ohm properly consider it doesn't have a lot of gain (more important) or current (less important). Since it is on its way back to JDS, you might want to ask John if there is room to increase the gain or not.
   
  update: just checked Xnor's chart here using DT770-600 as a model (they have similar spec), and the C5 should be okay.


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





clieos said:


> Don't have any 600 ohm to test it with, but I would think it might not have the power to drive 600ohm properly consider it doesn't have a lot of gain (more important) or current (less important). Since it is on its way back to JDS, you might want to ask John if there is room to increase the gain or not.
> 
> update: just checked Xnor's chart here using DT770-600 as a model (they have similar spec), and the C5 should be okay.


 
  I might try and see if I can't resell the C5 and my AKG K550 [since both where to be used together] and attempt to find a used iBasso PB2. I'm getting an HM 801 as well, so my next question [and it's TOTALLY out of the budget for this thread sry] is how does thebalanced amp card for the 801 work? DO i need a special interconnector to connect it to something like the iBasso PB2


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





mshenay said:


> I might try and see if I can't resell the C5 and my AKG K550 [since both where to be used together] and attempt to find a used iBasso PB2. I'm getting an HM 801 as well, so my next question [and it's TOTALLY out of the budget for this thread sry] is how does thebalanced amp card for the 801 work? DO i need a special interconnector to connect it to something like the iBasso PB2


 
   
  I think you can totally skip the balanced amp card on HM801 and just use the line-out to feed the PB2. First, using the balanced amp card as source is double amping. Second, the balanced amp card uses the SE signal from the line-out as well. Since PB2 already accept SE input, why not just leave the balanced amp card out and go straight to the source? In effect, you are using the PB2 as an balanced amp card, and save on all the messy connection that is not necessary in the first place.


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





clieos said:


> I think you can totally skip the balanced amp card on HM801 and just use the line-out to feed the PB2. First, using the balanced amp card as source is double amping. Second, the balanced amp card uses the SE signal from the line-out as well. Since PB2 already accept SE input, why not just leave the balanced amp card out and go straight to the source? In effect, you are using the PB2 as an balanced amp card, and save on all the messy connection that is not necessary in the first place.


 
  So... does the PB2 take the SE from a Line out and... like Balance it :O [if so that would be like OMG totally cool] 
   
  Still if the PB2 can take a SE unalanced signal and balance it that would be very neat, although I doubt that. Either way, good point and a money save on my end! Thanks CleiOs.
   
  I just need to sell off my old amp and Headphones so I can try it out! [I wonder how it would sound compared to my Matrix M stage as well :O] As I could get really wacky and sell off that and my oDac [which I plan to do anyways] and see how that works


----------



## ClieOS

Well, you need to ask someone who own a PB2 to confirm that it will take SE signal and balance it. I don't own one or play with one before to tell you anything useful.


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





clieos said:


> Well, you need to ask someone who own a PB2 to confirm that it will take SE signal and balance it. I don't own one or play with one before to tell you anything useful.


 
  hmm good point, although I'd assume it wont as the DB2 is the portable dac counter part to it
   
  while I'm on that subject... did I not recall people used to go around with Portable Dacs hooked up to their DAPs? You know, buys using the good ole Triple Stack Portable set up


----------



## Evshrug

Holy crap Mshenay, you climbed the tree fast from when I met you on the Bravo thread! Have you been reviewing these things you got along the way?


----------



## Makiah S

evshrug said:


> Holy crap Mshenay, you climbed the tree fast from when I met you on the Bravo thread! Have you been reviewing these things you got along the way?


 
  
 Kinda, I've yet to review my Db1 and Pb1, I'mm most likely do it tommorow, I've reviewed all my cans except the Sound Magic Hp 100, which I will do Friday and what not


----------



## s0lar

I am searching for a portable amp that can be powered/charged, if possible by USB while listening and sounds at least as good with similar sound signature as iBasso T5 that I can use wih ODAC. O2 is too neutral.


----------



## ClieOS

s0lar said:


> I am searching for a portable amp that can be powered/charged, if possible by USB while listening and sounds at least as good with similar sound signature as iBasso T5 that I can use wih ODAC. O2 is too neutral.


 
  
 Isn't T5 already fits all those description?
  
 Anyway, I would recommend Meier Audio stepdance / 2stepdance / quickdance, which partially fit you need. It doesn't charge the 9V battery nor powered by USB, but it is capable of being powered by a wall adapter, and has a similar but better sound when compared to T5.


----------



## pfiction

I'm sorry I'm a complete rookie to this so here Is my rookie question. Just bought sennheiser over ear momentums. With iPhone 4S as a source are any of these port amps better suited to my setup and why. . I would upgrade to an iPod if that would help SQ. . ( i know Probably a different forum) Thanks for your expert opinions in advance


----------



## s0lar

clieos said:


> Isn't T5 already fits all those description?
> 
> Anyway, I would recommend Meier Audio stepdance / 2stepdance / quickdance, which partially fit you need. It doesn't charge the 9V battery nor powered by USB, but it is capable of being powered by a wall adapter, and has a similar but better sound when compared to T5.


 
  
 Yes, I was thinking about that as well. T5 cannot be charged while listening. I already have a Corda move, the amp sounds similar and can be powered with a wall adapter, just need to look for the right adapter.
 My next must-buy will be a 2stepdance, it's still available with a discount.


----------



## ClieOS

pfiction said:


> I'm sorry I'm a complete rookie to this so here Is my rookie question. Just bought sennheiser over ear momentums. With iPhone 4S as a source are any of these port amps better suited to my setup and why. . I would upgrade to an iPod if that would help SQ. . ( i know Probably a different forum) Thanks for your expert opinions in advance


 
  
 Last I checked, Momentum sounds perfectly fine out of any iDevice. I really don't see a need of portable amp for it.
  
  


s0lar said:


> Yes, I was thinking about that as well.* T5 cannot be charged while listening*. I already have a Corda move, the amp sounds similar and can be powered with a wall adapter, just need to look for the right adapter.
> My next must-buy will be a 2stepdance, it's still available with a discount.


 
  
 Nonsense. I was listening to T5 while charging it at the same time last night when I was typing that replay to you.


----------



## s0lar

clieos said:


> Last I checked, Momentum sounds perfectly fine out of any iDevice. I really don't see a need of portable amp for it.
> 
> 
> 
> Nonsense. I was listening to T5 while charging it at the same time last night when I was typing that replay to you.


 
  
 Then you must have a different type of iBasso T5, because I cannot listen when it is charging.
 Now I am using a Meier Corda Move, it sounds a bit brighter then T5, the Move has AD8610 single channel opamps.


----------



## ClieOS

s0lar said:


> Then you must have a different type of iBasso T5, because I cannot listen when it is charging.
> Now I am using a Meier Corda Move, it sounds a bit brighter then T5, the Move has AD8610 single channel opamps.


 
  
 Well, in that case I will strong suspect you have a defected T5. My T5 is the first batch, IIRC, and I don't recall they ever have a reversion (*there is however an Japanese version under different name). For all I can remember, iBasso never says anything about T5 can not be used while charging. In fact, I can't remember any iBasso's portable amp that can't be used when recharging.


----------



## s0lar

clieos said:


> Well, in that case I will strong suspect you have a defected T5. My T5 is the first batch, IIRC, and I don't recall they ever have a reversion (*there is however an Japanese version under different name). For all I can remember, iBasso never says anything about T5 can not be used while charging. In fact, I can't remember any iBasso's portable amp that can't be used when recharging.


 
  
 It works fine but in your review you wrote about a charging LED. Mine has a RED led while charging and a white led while it's on. The led does not become green when charging is complete.
 I will contact iBasso about it, I figured it was just imposible to charge while listening. It is heavely scratched as well after all these years.


----------



## ClieOS

s0lar said:


> It works fine but in your review you wrote about a charging LED. Mine has a RED led while charging and a white led while it's on. The led does not become green when charging is complete.
> I will contact iBasso about it, I figured it was just imposible to charge while listening. It is heavely scratched as well after all these years.


 
  
 Besides the one included in this thread, I don't recall ever writing a review for the T5. I also don't recall mentioning about charging or green LED. In fact, mine works just like yours - red LED lights up when charging and goes off when it is full.


----------



## dahuojigg

I would personally go for the UHA-4. From the comparison and impressions before, it seems pretty spectacular.


----------



## ClieOS

Yes, UHA-4 would be a pretty good choice, though it won't have a similar sound as T5.


----------



## erod

Hey all. I want to ask about the ZO2.
  
 I got the HRT Microstreamer a while ago, and while it has some pros (clarity, highs extension), it is downright bass anemic imo. Point is,_ _I need more bass. 
  
 I was thinking of something like this 
  
 PC >>> HRT Microstreamer >>> ZO2 >>>> Sig DJ
  
 My question is, would this setup be idiotic? From ClieOS's view, the ZO2 is one of the worst sounding amps in this group. So, would it be stupid to use the Microstreamer as a DAC only, and use the ZO2 as bass boost?
  
 The intention is to maintain the positive qualities of the Microstreamer and add bass, but I am thinking I would lose the clarity from the Microstreamer if I use it as DAC only.


----------



## s0lar

http://www.head-fi.org/t/573871/ibasso-t5-a-newly-designed-small-portable-specifications/105
 Here's another user reporting the same issue and another commenting he has no problem listening while charging.
 I suspect a short somewhere because when I connect IEMs only one third to two thirds I can hear parts of the distorted output.


----------



## ClieOS

s0lar said:


> http://www.head-fi.org/t/573871/ibasso-t5-a-newly-designed-small-portable-specifications/105
> Here's another user reporting the same issue and another commenting he has no problem listening while charging.
> I suspect a short somewhere because when I connect IEMs only one third to two thirds I can hear parts of the distorted output.


 
  
 Yep, like I said on that (and this) thread, there seems to be some serious build quality issue on T5 and thus it is never the amp I'll recommend. My battery actually ballooned up in less than a few months with very light usage. I replaced it myself with a generic eBay Li-ion battery of the same size and it has been working fine all this time. I'll say there could be something doggy about the battery iBasso uses in T5 that causes all the inconsistency among user.


----------



## s0lar

clieos said:


> Yep, like I said on that (and this) thread, there seems to be some serious build quality issue on T5 and thus it is never the amp I'll recommend. My battery actually ballooned up in less than a few months with very light usage. I replaced it myself with a generic eBay Li-ion battery of the same size and it has been working fine all this time. I'll say there could be something doggy about the battery iBasso uses in T5 that causes all the inconsistency among user.


 
  
 Probably, could you describe how you took apart your T5 without damaging it?
 I found another user experience somewhere where the user is also unable to charge and listen at the same time.
  
*iBasso answered my e-mail. They say charging while listening is not possible.*


----------



## ClieOS

s0lar said:


> Probably, could you describe how you took apart your T5 without damaging it?
> I found another user experience somewhere where the user is also unable to charge and listen at the same time.


 
  
 T5 is really easy to take apart, only 2 tiny screws holding both panels together. Just unscrew carefully then use you finger to pry the two panels with your finger nail on one end (the one closer to the screw hole). One of the two panel (*forget which) will be easier as the other one will have the battery glued on with double side tape. The tricky part is actually when you need to put everything back, when you need to align the two panels just right so the tiny screw can screw into both of them. Also be sure not to over-screw and damage the thread.


----------



## notoriousjim

Would either C 421 work well with the Audeo PFE? I would get the C5 but I can get a C 421 for half the cost of a C5, the only problem is the seller isn't sure which model it is.


----------



## ClieOS

s0lar said:


> ... *iBasso answered my e-mail. They say charging while listening is not possible.*


 
  
 I guess I have the defected T5 then? In a way I am kind of glad it defected the way I want it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, but that's nonetheless a serious issue. Again, I am disappointed with iBasso. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Amend the review to reflect this.
  


notoriousjim said:


> Would either C 421 work well with the Audeo PFE? I would get the C5 but I can get a C 421 for half the cost of a C5, the only problem is the seller isn't sure which model it is.


 
  
 I'll expect PFE becomes slightly brighter due to the output impedance of C421.


----------



## s0lar

clieos said:


> I guess I have the defected T5 then? In a way I am kind of glad it defected the way I want it
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I found this info here: 
http://rockgrotto.proboards.com/thread/7448/ibasso-t5-portable-amplifier


----------



## esuhgb

Decided to charge up my t5 today after a couple of weeks and it does work while charging.


----------



## s0lar

esuhgb said:


> Decided to charge up my t5 today after a couple of weeks and it does work while charging.


 
  
 The saga here continues.
 I am unable to listen and charge via USB connected to my computer but I can listen and charge via 220VAC-5VDC USB connected to the wall.


----------



## esuhgb

I was charging using a wall charger and not via my laptop, will have to try that and see if it still plays.


----------



## ClieOS

s0lar said:


> The saga here continues.
> I am unable to listen and charge via USB connected to my computer but I can listen and charge via 220VAC-5VDC USB connected to the wall.


 


esuhgb said:


> I was charging using a wall charger and not via my laptop, will have to try that and see if it still plays.


 
  
 Could be some kind of ground issue, as BTL / balanced ground design will require much more complex charging circuit to isolate the ground channel from the electrical ground and T5 simply doesn't have the space needed. It could be that iBasso chose to cut corner by not isolate them and thus creating the issue we have here. E11 has the same problem but FiiO decided to automatically turn the amp section off when charging. It would also explain why some have noise issue while other don't, as USB port implementation is different from PC to PC. A good USB port will proper power filter will likely have no noise issue. Actually I can use my T5 on both PC as well as USB adapter while charging,


----------



## Evshrug

ClieOS,
Do you have experience with the E09k? How would you compare the transparency and soundstage between the E09k, E12, and E11? Just curious, because I find I miss the superior soundstage from my desktop tube amp when I switch to the E12 (and play videogames, still happy with the E12 and music)


----------



## ClieOS

E09K and E9 sound the same, roughly equal in SQ to E17 / E11. I don't think you will find it an upgrade over E12.


----------



## Evshrug

Ok thanks.


----------



## razzz42

Sound differences, you must be talking DACs and op amps. Anyone ever open up their unit to see what was inside i.e. kind of op amp? I take it being these models are all similar,  probably different op amps are the only difference in varying sounds between the models. I can't find the specs on those.


----------



## ClieOS

razzz42 said:


> Sound differences, you must be talking DACs and op amps. Anyone ever open up their unit to see what was inside i.e. kind of op amp? I take it being these models are all similar,  probably different op amps are the only difference in varying sounds between the models. I can't find the specs on those.




Which portable amps are you referring? I have openned up almost every amp I have. It is not just opamp that makes them sound different, but more importantly, the implementation.


----------



## razzz42

clieos said:


> Which portable amps are you referring? I have openned up almost every amp I have. It is not just opamp that makes them sound different, but more importantly, the implementation.


 
 Specifically the E11 is getting compared to the E17 with the E11 claimed to have a bit more bass (I think I have that right). Granted the circuity helps sound but is usually built around the DAC and/or opamp after they are choosen first. Just wanted to know what opamps each one is running.


----------



## ClieOS

razzz42 said:


> Specifically the E11 is getting compared to the E17 with the E11 claimed to have a bit more bass (I think I have that right). Granted the circuity helps sound but is usually built around the DAC and/or opamp after they are choosen first. Just wanted to know what opamps each one is running.


 
  
 E11 and E17's main opamp are actually the same: AD8397. But E11 has a 3 channels topology where E17 has the normal topology. They don't sound identical so implementation does affect the final sound.


----------



## razzz42

clieos said:


> E11 and E17's main opamp are actually the same: AD8397. But E11 has a 3 channels topology where E17 has the normal topology. They don't sound identical so implementation does affect the final sound.


 
 Thanks  for that. (I think you said E11 uses different filtering to achieve its sound)


----------



## proedros

I think the *refurbished 3G Arrow ($199)* should be added to this list.


----------



## Varoudis

proedros said:


> I think the *refurbished 3G Arrow ($199)* should be added to this list.




I would love to see this one int he list too.

Ive been researching between jds c5, uha4 and arrow 3g lately.
T


----------



## Jerryberry

HAVE I MADE THE RIGHT CHOICE IN C5 ???
  
 Hi, I just purchased a c5 slate after contemplating numerous choices of amps and dacs and a combi of both. I am coming from an E11 which had its headphone jack give me problems and i wasn't 2 happy about its build quality either. I was about to settle for the E07k for its quailty built, price and as well as portability but there was a discount for the c5 at 175usd so i took the plunge instead for that. 
  
 The question is have i made the right choice ??? or will i have buyers remorse ???
  
 I hope i made the right choice! I was also considering the E17, E12, E18.
  
 I have the vmoda m100s and the senn Amperiors. I am currently using android and sansa clip + (and maybe x5 soon). n I'm a closet bass-head i guess.
  
 Thanks.


----------



## ClieOS

jerryberry said:


> The question is have i made the right choice ??? or will i have buyers remorse ???


 
  
 Only you can answer those questions. I can only tell you C5 is a fine sounding amp.


----------



## Jerryberry

clieos said:


> Only you can answer those questions. I can only tell you C5 is a fine sounding amp.


 
  
 okay can u tell me if i will be able to tell the difference in quality from the E11 then ?


----------



## ClieOS

jerryberry said:


> okay can u tell me if i will be able to tell the difference in quality from the E11 then ?


 

 You should, but the ability to differentiate gears is as much an art as it is depend on your hearing, experience and personal preference.


----------



## AudeoPhreak9

Looking for first portable amp.  Between Mont Blanc and a few others.  Thanks for the shootout info!  Will be helpful.


----------



## YoYo JoKeR

I have recently purchased an HD600, and looking forward to buy an amp within 200$
  
 Portability doesnt matter much for me.
  
 I was thinking about E12 and O2. Which one to pick?


----------



## palermo

I am just thinking about opamp in C5, what if it change to LME49720ma ? maybe would be a good deal create more soundstage width. 
just say


----------



## ClieOS

yoyo joker said:


> I have recently purchased an HD600, and looking forward to buy an amp within 200$
> 
> Portability doesnt matter much for me.
> 
> I was thinking about E12 and O2. Which one to pick?


 
  
 Both are fine. O2 will be a bit more transparent while E12 is more powerful. If bass boost and crossfeed ain't something you are going to use, pick O2. There is also E12DIY, which with the right opamp, can sound as transparent as O2, and offer similar power as regular E12.
  


palermo said:


> I am just thinking about opamp in C5, what if it change to LME49720ma ? maybe would be a good deal create more soundstage width.
> just say


 
  
 Hard to say as it involves the whole circuit. But I'll make a guess and say it might turns out to be cleaner sounding than OPA2227. Again, I am just guessing.


----------



## MattAnthony1990

yoyo joker said:


> I have recently purchased an HD600, and looking forward to buy an amp within 200$
> 
> Portability doesnt matter much for me.
> 
> I was thinking about E12 and O2. Which one to pick?


 
 For under 200 I'd go with Schiit Audio so you can get both an AMP and a DAC for that value. A good DAC is just as important as a good amp. You can get the Magni amp and Modi DAC for $198.


----------



## palermo

clieos said:


> Hard to say as it involves the whole circuit. But I'll make a guess and say it might turns out to be cleaner sounding than OPA2227. Again, I am just guessing.


 
  
 Done! 
 Yes, I could hear more clear with good detail in mid-hi.


----------



## YoYo JoKeR

I find O2 lacking in power to drive an HD600.
  
 Even after pressing the gain switch, maximum and setting player's volume to maximum, O2 seems to just drive them with volume knob 80% on, with not enough power remaining on the reserve.
  
 Is everybody having this problem? or is it me?


----------



## shaolin95

Out of curiosity, where would you rank the FiiO E18 on this list?

 When I got the E18 I was not really thinking I was going to keep it as I was about to receive the E17 as well and I was biased due to the display and treble/bass controls  but I dont know if my mind is playing tricks on me but the E18 seems to have better dynamics and instrument separation so not it seems my goal of selling the E18 for a quick profit as I got it for a good price used, is not going to happen lol


----------



## palermo

yoyo joker said:


> I find O2 lacking in power to drive an HD600.
> 
> Even after pressing the gain switch, maximum and setting player's volume to maximum, O2 seems to just drive them with volume knob 80% on, with not enough power remaining on the reserve.
> 
> Is everybody having this problem? or is it me?


 

 Yes, I've got that problem too. O2 also lack power to bring out dynamic on HD650.
 It why there is threat in diyaudio, modify buffer section of O2.


----------



## YoYo JoKeR

palermo said:


> Yes, I've got that problem too. O2 also lack power to bring out dynamic on HD650.
> It why there is threat in diyaudio, modify buffer section of O2.


 

 How to do it? any link would be helpful.
  
 Other than this no other problem. Amplifier is superB.


----------



## palermo

this is link from there, 
 http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/headphone-systems/244473-o2-headamp-output-booster-pcb.html
  
 the same ID made it too in head-fi DIY section, but many people in head-fi seem less interested  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/693300/o2-headamp-output-booster-modification-pcb


----------



## ClieOS

shaolin95 said:


> Out of curiosity, where would you rank the FiiO E18 on this list?
> 
> When I got the E18 I was not really thinking I was going to keep it as I was about to receive the E17 as well and I was biased due to the display and treble/bass controls  but I dont know if my mind is playing tricks on me but the E18 seems to have better dynamics and instrument separation so not it seems my goal of selling the E18 for a quick profit as I got it for a good price used, is not going to happen lol


 
  
 Your mind (and ears) isn't playing trick as E18 is indeed better sounding than E17, by a good margin no less. I'll place it 4th on the ranking, either Just a step behind E12.


----------



## shaolin95

That will be vs an AMP only I see. I forgot it was not a thread about amp/dacs. Good deal and good to know I am not imagining things lol 
 Like this song has vocals that start in Stereo very wide and slowly keep getting closer until the main singers starts and with the E17 the separation is not as clear as with the E18. That was the first song got me curious to test more. Thanks for the confirmation!


----------



## ClieOS

Even as DAC, E18 is still a little ahead  But with most DAC comparison, the noticeable difference will be smaller.


----------



## YoYo JoKeR

Little off topic,
  
 But
 Matrix M stage V/s O2 very much worth discussing.
  
 Who would be winner and by what all aspects.


----------



## ClassicalViola

clieos said:


> Both are fine. O2 will be a bit more transparent while E12 is more powerful. If bass boost and crossfeed ain't something you are going to use, pick O2. There is also E12DIY, which with the right opamp, can sound as transparent as O2, and offer similar power as regular E12.
> 
> 
> Hard to say as it involves the whole circuit. But I'll make a guess and say it might turns out to be cleaner sounding than OPA2227. Again, I am just guessing.


 
  
 Hi ClieOS, I am curious about how the original E12 compares in terms of transparency and soundstage to the E12DIY when it is fitted with the same OPA1611 and LME49600 chips as the original E12. Does the more simplified circuitry of the E12DIY improve the transparency/soundstage if using the two same chips mentioned? Is the improvement substantial? Thanks!


----------



## ClieOS

classicalviola said:


> Hi ClieOS, I am curious about how the original E12 compares in terms of transparency and soundstage to the E12DIY when it is fitted with the same OPA1611 and LME49600 chips as the original E12. Does the more simplified circuitry of the E12DIY improve the transparency/soundstage if using the two same chips mentioned? Is the improvement substantial? Thanks!


 
  
 My E12 is the very first batch with LME49710 instead of the later OPA1611, so I can't give you a direct comparison. But I am comfortable to say that given the audible difference between my E12 and E12DIY, I have no doubt the E12DIY will be better even with the same opamp+buffer setup, and OPA1611+LME49600 is not even the most transparent or widest soundstage of opamp+buffer you can use on E12DIY.


----------



## ClassicalViola

clieos said:


> My E12 is the very first batch with LME49710 instead of the later OPA1611, so I can't give you a direct comparison. But I am comfortable to say that given the audible difference between my E12 and E12DIY, I have no doubt the E12DIY will be better even with the same opamp+buffer setup, and OPA1611+LME49600 is not even the most transparent or widest soundstage of opamp+buffer you can use on E12DIY.


 
 I see. Among the stock opamp & buffer chips, which combination(s) would you say have more transparency/better soundstage? I have zero experience in rolling opamps/buffers but I'm curious and would like to learn more about the different chips available, so I plan to get a E12DIY from tmall. With shipping and all, it would come to around 250USD, do you think it'll be a better investment than a normal E12 at that price? I plan to use the portable amp with my X3 and either an X5 or DX90 which I plan to purchase after comparing them in the future.


----------



## ClieOS

classicalviola said:


> I see. Among the stock opamp & buffer chips, which combination(s) would you say have more transparency/better soundstage? I have zero experience in rolling opamps/buffers but I'm curious and would like to learn more about the different chips available, so I plan to get a E12DIY from tmall. With shipping and all, it would come to around 250USD, do you think it'll be a better investment than a normal E12 at that price? I plan to use the portable amp with my X3 and either an X5 or DX90 which I plan to purchase after comparing them in the future.


 
  
 Without comparing to E12, I think E12DIY is well worth the money as it can compete head-to-head for some of the 'big name' $300~$500 portable amps without a problem. Of course E12 by itself is quite a bit cheaper - then again, E12 is also pretty high in value-for-money just as well. Personally, I see no problem dropping anything less than $300 for E12DIY. If it is over $300, I think the seller might be a bit greedy.
  
 The most transparent opamp+buffer I have heard on the E12DIY will be the NJM5532 + HA-5002, but both are no stock. For stock combo, I think OPA1611+LME49600 (neutral but tilt to warm) or AD797+LME49600 (neutral but tilt to bright) are both good starter. Just play around and find what sounds best to you.


----------



## gatorengineer64

anyone aware of the DACs used in these players?  I am very partial to the 9018 DAC.....  if none of these has a 9018 then could someone suggest a portable amp./dac that uses it? Thanks.


----------



## ClieOS

gatorengineer64 said:


> anyone aware of the DACs used in these players?  I am very partial to the 9018 DAC.....  if none of these has a 9018 then could someone suggest a portable amp./dac that uses it? Thanks.




Don't know any portable amp/DAC that has ES9018. It is a desktop class chip that is usually too power hungry to be used on portable amp, not mention quite an expensive chip to implement. I would think you are looking more like $500~1K level instead of a $200 amp, if such device exists.


----------



## laon

iBasso DX100 use ES9018 and DX90 use two ES9018K2 (2 Channel version of 9018). And yeah, they're both are way above $200.


----------



## cel4145

I just got the AKG K612 Pros and I'm a little underwhelmed by how well my C&C BH powers them. I have the gain turned up, and I'm running it full out sometimes. What would you consider as the best options to drive them? Their specs are a little different from the K70x series for they are 120 ohm, 101 dB SPL/V, and I have heard people describe them as even a little more difficult than some of the K70x series headphones. 

E12 seems like it should do the job. O2 is not portable enough for me. What about JDS C5? Your review gave it four stars for power, but perhaps it's able to handle the load of the K612s better than the C&C BH? If so, that's probably what I would go for and then spring for the C5D (might as well pay $50 for the DAC).


----------



## ClieOS

cel4145 said:


> I just got the AKG K612 Pros and I'm a little underwhelmed by how well my C&C BH powers them. I have the gain turned up, and I'm running it full out sometimes. What would you consider as the best options to drive them? Their specs are a little different from the K70x series for they are 120 ohm, 101 dB SPL/V, and I have heard people describe them as even a little more difficult than some of the K70x series headphones.
> 
> E12 seems like it should do the job. O2 is not portable enough for me. What about JDS C5? Your review gave it four stars for power, but perhaps it's able to handle the load of the K612s better than the C&C BH? If so, that's probably what I would go for and then spring for the C5D (might as well pay $50 for the DAC).


 
  
 In this review, power is measured mainly on current output (as all of them should have more than enough voltage on IEM / earphone), not voltage gain / max volume, which is probably what you're looking for with the AKG. C5 should have more than enough voltage swing for you, as you don't need that much current than you need voltage. I'll say both C5 / C5D are fairly safe choice.


----------



## cel4145

clieos said:


> In this review, power is measured mainly on current output (as all of them should have more than enough voltage on IEM / earphone), not voltage gain / max volume, which is probably what you're looking for with the AKG. C5 should have more than enough voltage swing for you, as you don't need that much current than you need voltage. I'll say both C5 / C5D are fairly safe choice.




Thanks! That's what I was hoping


----------



## razzz42

Too bad about not being able to get a decent DAC in a portable (Even so called high end desktop computers cards always sound a bit dark to me no matter which supporting opamps you choose, because the DAC is not feeding a decent signal to the opamps or has its own varied version of the signal or maybe crap components are being used to surround the DAC and opamps).  Maybe it just takes to much power to decode and support a DAC signal properly in a portable. Opamps swapping, decent headphones and amps will go lacking without a decent DAC outputting. Might as well plug your phones into a newer DVD/BR player.
  
 Maybe in time shrinkage will help portables match little bricks like in these specs. (still using a version of Vinyl Envy tech) AUDIOTRAK DR.DAC3 24/192 Asynch USB   An example of decent high end sound but not in a portable.


----------



## LivDoug

I am thinking of getting either the e18 or an e11 for my iPod touch 5g. If i understand correctly from other threads, I should be able to run ipod> Lightning cck>usb>e18 and use the e18 with my ipod. Only thing im wondering is, which would leave my music sounding less colored? I prefer to buy my headphones/iem according to the sound I want, so would like whatever I get to change my music the least. 

How would it sound with the e18 vs an e11? I've only ever used a fiio e5, so not a lot of experience with portable amps/DACs. And I am ready for something better.

I partly figured the e18 would be good to consider bc it would be nice to have the DAC for my pc listening. Even though most of my listening is done on the go. But main concern is the cleanest portable audio I can get for my money.


----------



## ClieOS

Seems like you already have your answer figured out. I have no experience with iTouch and therefore really can't tell you much about how it compares to E18, but I can say that E18 is better sounding than E11 so at least you will get the better amp of the two.


----------



## LivDoug

From what I had read around here I had assumed the e18 was better, but feel better hearing it from someone that knows. Been lurking and researching the forums for a little while now. These posts by you are great, so helpful to have all your great reviews and then these sub $100 and $200 comparisons are just amazing. Thank you


----------



## Evshrug

ClieOS, you mention the E18, glad to hear it has a better amp than the E11 and E17, do you think you'll add a formal review of the E18?


----------



## ClieOS

evshrug said:


> ClieOS, you mention the E18, glad to hear it has a better amp than the E11 and E17, do you think you'll add a formal review of the E18?


 
  
 Like this? http://www.head-fi.org/t/685414/preview-fiio-e18-kunlun-surprise-surprise
  
 Will add this to the list sometime. I guess it does need some update for a few more amps.


----------



## Evshrug

Yes, like that, thanks!
Lol


----------



## wigglepuff

are there any known issues with the O2 amp using 16-32 ohms phones running at low volumes? no imbalance or noise?


----------



## ClieOS

wigglepuff said:


> are there any known issues with the O2 amp using 16-32 ohms phones running at low volumes? no imbalance or noise?


 

 Imbalance depends a lot on the sensitivity of the IEM. The higher, the more likely it will encounter such problem. However, lowering the gain of the amp usually helps to avoid such problem. Most universal IEM shouldn't have such problem on O2 with low gain. However, If you use a particularly sensitive custom IEM, you will want to ask the manufacturer / builder to lower the low gain on O2 to zero.
  
 Noise is exceptionally low in O2, pretty much inaudible.


----------



## wigglepuff

ok thanks, pretty much figured out which amp to get now.


----------



## Insatiable One

Cayin C5 kills everything here


----------



## ClieOS

insatiable one said:


> Cayin C5 kills everything here


 
  
 ... no till I said so


----------



## Vignelli

insatiable one said:


> Cayin C5 kills everything here


 
  
  


clieos said:


> ... no till I said so


 
 clieos,  i waiting your review about c5.. 
  
 gimme a reason to not to press buy button for that item


----------



## ClieOS

vignelli said:


> clieos,  i waiting your review about c5..
> 
> gimme a reason to not to press buy button for that item


 
  
 You're on your own on this as I have no plan to review the Cayin C5.


----------



## lustandwet

It looks like Filo doing  a good job in the low price area ..


----------



## Vignelli

clieos said:


> You're on your own on this as I have no plan to review the Cayin C5.


 
 well.. i'm hearing is believing typical guy..
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 unfortunately in my place we have no cayin c5 to listened so i choose to buy rsa shadow which i like it more than national,rx,and continental.. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 keep review clieos.. i like your review so far..


----------



## ClieOS

If you like what you have heard than everything is cool. But in general I'll avoid RSA as much as possible.


----------



## upsguys88

Is the objective 2 really that portable though?


----------



## TeddyShot

What's the difference between the Fiio E12 and E12A? And how do they perform against the E18? And one more thing, considering 2 years have passed since this post was created, which amps (under $200) are best overall nowadays.


----------



## ClieOS

teddyshot said:


> What's the difference between the Fiio E12 and E12A? And how do they perform against the E18? And one more thing, considering 2 years have passed since this post was created, which amps (under $200) are best overall nowadays.


 
  
 E12A is an special adapted version of E12DIY, designed mainly to be used with IEM or any hiss sensitive headphone. It has a little less power than the regular E12, but otherwise can be considered to be better sounding. It is also better sounding than E18 as well. Beside E12DIY, E12A is the best sounding amp FiiO has ever made, and easily competes with most sub-$350 portable amp out there.
  
 For the most part, sub-$200 amp market haven't really changed that much since the starting of this thread, except that FiiO now is also topping the chart with E12DIY and E12A.


----------



## Insatiable One

clieos said:


> E12A is an special adapted version of E12DIY, designed mainly to be used with IEM or any hiss sensitive headphone. It has a little less power than the regular E12, but otherwise can be considered to be better sounding. It is also better sounding than E18 as well. Beside E12DIY, E12A is the best sounding amp FiiO has ever made, and easily competes with most sub-$350 portable amp out there.
> 
> For the most part, sub-$200 amp market haven't really changed that much since the starting of this thread, except that FiiO now is also topping the chart with E12DIY and E12A.


 
 That's true, but I would still argue that the Cayin C5 is a better value for its price.
 To each his own.


----------



## eyal1983

Fiio E12A vs Objective2, using with 16ohm phones;
 which has better transparency and sound stage ?


----------



## ClieOS

insatiable one said:


> That's true, but I would still argue that the Cayin C5 is a better value for its price.
> To each his own.


 
  
 Haven't heard the C5 myself - but given the similarity in price (both can be have around $160~170), as well as implementation, I'll say the MUSES02 in E12A is a much significant sale / value point to me over OPA134, consider how highly regarded the MUSES02 is and a single chip is worth well over 10 OPA134 in price. Of course, there is also the point that OPA134 is a very old chip from decades ago when MUSES01 is considered the current best audio opamp around.
  


eyal1983 said:


> Fiio E12A vs Objective2, using with 16ohm phones;
> which has better transparency and sound stage ?


 
  
 O2 will offer slightly better soundstage and transparency. E12A will offer slightly better texture and musicality. You won't lose any SQ with either choice, but there will be a slight difference in overall sound signature, as neutral as both are.


----------



## eyal1983

Is there more hissing / less dark background with the O2 more than the E12A ?


----------



## ClieOS

eyal1983 said:


> Is there more hissing / less dark background with the O2 more than the E12A ?


 
  
 I don't hear hiss on either, but O2 gives the sensation of a darker (or should I say 'more open'?) background because of its sound signature. I do believe they both are measured to have very similar SNR, around -115dB.


----------



## eyal1983

How's the treble of the E12A's?
  
 I had the O2 before, and felt the treble to be not refined as UHA's for ex... a fault OpAmp perhaps?


----------



## ClieOS

eyal1983 said:


> How's the treble of the E12A's?
> 
> I had the O2 before, and felt the treble to be not refined as UHA's for ex... a fault OpAmp perhaps?


 
  
 Not sure how to quantify refinement but treble on E12A sounds excellent to me. Well O2's treble sounds pretty good too actually.


----------



## eyal1983

What's the O2's equivalent, for the E12A's low gain setting?

(Jds L gives you the option to choose between the following)
2.5/6.5
1.5/3.5
0/2.5 

?


----------



## ClieOS

eyal1983 said:


> What's the O2's equivalent, for the E12A's low gain setting?
> 
> (Jds L gives you the option to choose between the following)
> 2.5/6.5
> ...


 
  
 Lower gain on E12A is -1dB IIRC, so it is about 0.9x. A zero gain will be the closest.


----------



## eyal1983

Is there a way, to later on, change the O2's gain setting, myself?


----------



## TeddyShot

clieos said:


> E12A is an special adapted version of E12DIY, designed mainly to be used with IEM or any hiss sensitive headphone. It has a little less power than the regular E12, but otherwise can be considered to be better sounding. It is also better sounding than E18 as well. Beside E12DIY, E12A is the best sounding amp FiiO has ever made, and easily competes with most sub-$350 portable amp out there.
> 
> For the most part, sub-$200 amp market haven't really changed that much since the starting of this thread, except that FiiO now is also topping the chart with E12DIY and E12A.




So between the E12A and E12DIY, which would you recommend for someone using Sennheiser 598 headphones? And how much better sounding are these from the E18 (especially when using the DAC function)?


----------



## ClieOS

eyal1983 said:


> Is there a way, to later on, change the O2's gain setting, myself?


 
  
 It will involve replacing (desoldering / soldering) 4 resistors, IIRC. You can ask JDS for detail.
  


teddyshot said:


> So between the E12A and E12DIY, which would you recommend for someone using Sennheiser 598 headphones? And how much better sounding are these from the E18 (especially when using the DAC function)?


 
  
 E12DIY, as you will benefit more for higher voltage swing and opamp rolling. I'll say E12DIY is at least a class better than E18 as purely an amp. Given E12DIY doesn't have a DAC section, there is no point in comparing.


----------



## TeddyShot

clieos said:


> It will involve replacing (desoldering / soldering) 4 resistors, IIRC. You can ask JDS for detail.
> 
> 
> E12DIY, as you will benefit more for higher voltage swing and opamp rolling. I'll say E12DIY is at least a class better than E18 as purely an amp. Given E12DIY doesn't have a DAC section, there is no point in comparing.




But I've looked at the E12DIY and it costs $250, which is $100 more than the E12A. whats the difference between the two? And is the E12A a good improvement over the E18 amp wise?


----------



## ClieOS

teddyshot said:


> But I've looked at the E12DIY and it costs $250, which is $100 more than the E12A. whats the difference between the two? And is the E12A a good improvement over the E18 amp wise?


 
  
 I got mine E12DIY for less than $200 actually, so are many others. E12DIY is originally not intended as a money making project but only for FiiO to prove its engineering capability as well as giving back to the HF community. The reason why it is $250 now is because you are buying the 'leftover' / overstocked unit of the original E12DIY project, so the price now reflects not just the cost but also the necessary profit for retailing. Where E12A only has a fixed configuration, E12DIY comes with multiple swappable parts (opamp and buffer) for you to fine tune the sound, and the opamp and buffer that come with E12DIY are worth over $100. You can also buy more opamp and buffer to try out different combo to best match your taste. Where with E12A, you can't. With E12DIY, you can set it to sound just like a E12A, or a normal E12, or any other compatible combination. That's the DIY part of the E12DIY. Remember, E12A is just an adopted / fixed version of E12DIY.


----------



## TeddyShot

clieos said:


> I got mine E12DIY for less than $200 actually, so are many others. E12DIY is originally not intended as a money making project but only for FiiO to prove its engineering capability as well as giving back to the HF community. The reason why it is $250 now is because you are buying the 'leftover' / overstocked unit of the original E12DIY project, so the price now reflects not just the cost but also the necessary profit for retailing. Where E12A only has a fixed configuration, E12DIY comes with multiple swappable parts (opamp and buffer) for you to fine tune the sound, and the opamp and buffer that come with E12DIY are worth over $100. You can also buy more opamp and buffer to try out different combo to best match your taste. Where with E12A, you can't. With E12DIY, you can set it to sound just like a E12A, or a normal E12, or any other compatible combination. That's the DIY part of the E12DIY. Remember, E12A is just an adopted / fixed version of E12DIY.




Hmm, well in that case I would probably go with the E12A or whichever is on sale on Cyber Monday. I've also heard good things about the cayin C5, do you plan on reviewing that amp?


----------



## ClieOS

teddyshot said:


> ... I've also heard good things about the cayin C5, do you plan on reviewing that amp?


 
  
 Nope. I can (somewhat) turn my E12DIY into a Cayin C5 by using plugging in an OPA2134 (C5 uses 2x OPA134, same chip as OPA2134 but in single channel) and I know OPA2134 isn't much of a looker (as I have used it a long time ago). That's just no attraction there for me to get one.


----------



## Evshrug

Given the current conversation, what is a good thread or site discussing and comparing OpAmp offerings? I get this banner ad on Head-Fi all the time advertising Burson "Ultimate Opamp," but as good as Burson's reputation is I detect a fair amount of marketing hype and I suspect the opamp won't fit inside many enclosures.


----------



## ClieOS

evshrug said:


> Given the current conversation, what is a good thread or site discussing and comparing OpAmp offerings? I get this banner ad on Head-Fi all the time advertising Burson "Ultimate Opamp," but as good as Burson's reputation is I detect a fair amount of marketing hype and I suspect the opamp won't fit inside many enclosures.


 
  
 I usually just dig around the DIY forum for information.


----------



## TeddyShot

Is the JDS Labs C5 significantly better over the Fiio E12? I'm considering buying one of the two but as you may know, the C5 costs $60 (at $190) more than the E12.

P.s I would consider the Fiio E12DIY but I don't think it will go down from $250. And as for the Fiio E12A, how does it compare at $160?

Also I will be running a Sennheiser HD 558 (possibly with foam mod) off it.


----------



## ClieOS

teddyshot said:


> Is the JDS Labs C5 significantly better over the Fiio E12? I'm considering buying one of the two but as you may know, the C5 costs $60 (at $190) more than the E12.
> 
> P.s I would consider the Fiio E12DIY but I don't think it will go down from $250. And as for the Fiio E12A, how does it compare at $160?
> 
> Also I will be running a Sennheiser HD 558 (possibly with foam mod) off it.


 
  
 I won't say it is 'significantly' better, but it is noticeable if you are a critical listener. I'll however rate E12DIY to be better of C5 and on par with O2. Given E12A's performance is very close to that of E12DIY, I'll rate it better than C5 as well.


----------



## TeddyShot

clieos said:


> I won't say it is 'significantly' better, but it is noticeable if you are a critical listener. I'll however rate E12DIY to be better of C5 and on par with O2. Given E12A's performance is very close to that of E12DIY, I'll rate it better than C5 as well.




Well that makes it a difficult choice since I can get a Fiio E12 for $130, a JDS C5 for $135 (refurbished), and a Fiio E12A for $160


----------



## YoYo JoKeR

teddyshot said:


> Well that makes it a difficult choice since I can get a Fiio E12 for $130, a JDS C5 for $135 (refurbished), and a Fiio E12A for $160


 
 Hi there,
  
 Why dont you consider the Cayin C5? It costs around 150$ and has excellent feedback from all Head-Fi members.
  
 Sonic performance is excellent, is almost neutral and as transparent as Objective2. The C5 also has lot of output power and includes other features like power bank and bass boost as well. 
  
 Check it out


----------



## TeddyShot

yoyo joker said:


> Hi there,
> 
> Why dont you consider the Cayin C5? It costs around 150$ and has excellent feedback from all Head-Fi members.
> 
> ...




I've heard that the Cayin C5 and Fiio E12A have are equal in terms of sound quality. The problem with the Cayin C5 is that it's too vintage looking and the sound of the Fiio E12A interests me more. At 17 vintage isn't exactly my taste and when paired with a Sennheiser 558, a narrower soundstage won't be too much of a problem.


----------



## TeddyShot

teddyshot said:


> Well that makes it a difficult choice since I can get a Fiio E12 for $130, a JDS C5 for $135 (refurbished), and a Fiio E12A for $160




Well I ended up ordering a Fiio E12 on Black Friday. I got it for $100 Brand New. I was seriously considering the E12A but it didn't go down from its $160 price. Did I get a good deal though?


----------



## howdy

Heck yeah that's a great deal. You will like the amp. What headphones are you using with it?


----------



## TeddyShot

howdy said:


> Heck yeah that's a great deal. You will like the amp. What headphones are you using with it?




I'm using a pair of Sennheiser 598s I got for $100 Brand New on Black Friday. Funny thing is I didn't like the sound much. It added more detail to music but made my headphone sound narrower in soundstage. So I returned it and got the Cayin C5 (I looks good with the 598). I'm about to test the Cayin C5 right now, hope it was worth the $150 I paid for it (I got it $20 off on Amazon.


----------



## howdy

And you are using the C5 with an iPod correct? I don't like my e12 with my iPod either, but with my X5 its damn near unbeatable. The 598s are good HPs with some good power behind them..


----------



## TeddyShot

howdy said:


> And you are using the C5 with an iPod correct? I don't like my e12 with my iPod either, but with my X5 its damn near unbeatable. The 598s are good HPs with some good power behind them..




No I. Using my iPad Air's headphone jack. The headphone have a bigger soundstage when I ran them off my iPad then when I ran them with the E12 connected. But I only played the E12 for a total of about 10 hours.


----------



## elfary

It seems that the day my 4 year old iBasso T3 craps out i'm having a hard time to find some amp as tiny, powerful and good sounding, It is ideal to drive my multidriver iems hooked to an (also discontinued) iPod Classic 
  
 And its battery runs for more than 30 hours. Almosto like the iPod. What an ultraportable and long lasting combo.


----------



## CJG888

C&C BH2?


----------



## ClieOS

BH2 fits most of the bill though I don't consider it to be better sounding. T5 would have be the natural choice except the build quality isn't good enough for a recommendation. Unfortunately the only ultraportable that I know that can beat even T5 is pretty much dead in prototype phase.
  
 Right now T5 seems to be the only real option. Hmm.


----------



## CJG888

Is the T5 still in production? iBasso seem to have discontinued everything bar a few key product lines...


----------



## ClieOS

Yep, iBasso is pretty dedicated to DAP these days, but you can probably still find the Japanese version.


----------



## alexnishi

very good shoot out! thank you!


----------



## sandman1990

Very nice shootout there.
 I have a FiiO E12 and want something that has a wider soundstage. At the moment, I am somewhat tempted by the new E12A.
 Is the soundstage of the E12A wider than the E12?


----------



## ClieOS

sandman1990 said:


> Very nice shootout there.
> I have a FiiO E12 and want something that has a wider soundstage. At the moment, I am somewhat tempted by the new E12A.
> Is the soundstage of the E12A wider than the E12?


 
  
 Yes, much better in fact.


----------



## golov17

ClieOS, what can you say about the C&C BH2 for VE ZEN & ASURA?


----------



## ClieOS

golov17 said:


> ClieOS, what can you say about the C&C BH2 for VE ZEN & ASURA?


 
  
 BH2 is pretty good. But for under $100, I'll recommend FiiO E11K first, BH2 second.


----------



## golov17

Thank U!I have already ordered a C & C BH2, I hope it will be well managed 300 Ohm earbuds


----------



## Westie91

I've been looking at the TEAC HA-P50 and the Creative Sound Blaster E5 to use with my iPod Touch 5G.
Does anyone know how either of these compare with the brands discussed in the shootout? Is one of these better than the other? They both sell for about $200.


----------



## golov17

Review Aune B1 ClieOS


----------



## Evshrug

The Aune B1 seems like a very nice and capable amp, but what amp would pair well with a multi-armature multi-crossover IEMs like the JH13 freqphase CIEM?


----------



## FlacFan

Hello all,
  
 i am trying to make up my mind between FiiO E07K and E17K. One of the most interesting (for me anyways) features is that both not only have adjustable bass but adjustable treble as well.
  
 Are there any other devices with that feature set out there?
  
 Thank you kindly.
  
 Cheers.


----------



## ClieOS

flacfan said:


> Hello all,
> 
> i am trying to make up my mind between FiiO E07K and E17K. One of the most interesting (for me anyways) features is that both not only have adjustable bass but adjustable treble as well.
> 
> ...


 
  
 The other one I know is digiZoid ZO FS (and FS+), though it is much more expensive and doesn't really deliver a bigger bang of the bucks.


----------



## golov17

flacfan said:


> Are there any other devices with that feature set out there?
> 
> Thank you kindly.
> 
> Cheers.


 http://www.headstage.com/Arrow-5TX/Headstage-Arrow-5TX::10144.html?XTCsid=287ed1caa182b5d59e0a95d2eba3694b


----------



## FlacFan

Thank you both for your info. Will read up on those even though the price tags are hard to swallow...
  
 Cheers.


----------



## golov17

Fiio Alpen2 E17K


----------



## mrmonday

This thread makes me really want the E12A. My only question is whether the E12A can power SRH1540s and HE-400s to there full potential?


----------



## ClieOS

mrmonday said:


> This thread makes me really want the E12A. My only question is whether the E12A can power SRH1540s and HE-400s to there full potential?


 
  
 SRH1540 isn't  very difficult to drive, so E12A should be fine. HE-400s is probably a bit more difficult, though I suspect E12A should be okay as well, unless you like your music very loud.


----------



## mrmonday

clieos said:


> SRH1540 isn't  very difficult to drive, so E12A should be fine. HE-400s is probably a bit more difficult, though I suspect E12A should be okay as well, unless you like your music very loud.


 
 It is very hard to decide between the E12A and the Cayin C5 since they are so closely matched in price and performance. The C5 seems more versatile but I am leaning toward the better battery life and lower noise floor of the E12A.
  
 I want to avoid dual amping if at all possible so I will be using a LOD with my iphone 6 to bypass the internal amp but I am not sure what to do with my laptop since I can't bypass the internal amp without also bypassing the internal DAC. Any suggestions?


----------



## golov17

All in One, DAC+AMP


----------



## mrmonday

golov17 said:


> All in One, DAC+AMP


 
 Any suggestions? All of the portable DAC/amps under $150 seem pretty mediocre and I don't need a DAC with my iphone 6 so it would really only be used with my laptop. I was thinking that one of the Muse PCM 2704 chipset DACs from amazon could do the trick and I could just keep it in my laptop bag.


----------



## golov17

I like HiFime DIY Sabre for my netbook


----------



## ClieOS

mrmonday said:


> It is very hard to decide between the E12A and the Cayin C5 since they are so closely matched in price and performance. The C5 seems more versatile but I am leaning toward the better battery life and lower noise floor of the E12A.
> 
> I want to avoid dual amping if at all possible so I will be using a LOD with my iphone 6 to bypass the internal amp but I am not sure what to do with my laptop since I can't bypass the internal amp without also bypassing the internal DAC. Any suggestions?


 
  
 Haven't heard the C5 myself, but as far as I have read, it seems to be a warm sounding amp. My money is on the E12A because it has the MUSE02 inside, which is probably one of the best audio opamp around. The OPA2134 in C5 is however, good but nothing impressive.
  


mrmonday said:


> Any suggestions? All of the portable DAC/amps under $150 seem pretty mediocre and I don't need a DAC with my iphone 6 so it would really only be used with my laptop. I was thinking that one of the Muse PCM 2704 chipset DACs from amazon could do the trick and I could just keep it in my laptop bag.


 
  
 PCM2704 probably won't sound any better than your PC's built in DAC. Any of the HiFimeDIY's small USB DAC that is based on ESS Sabre chips should sound fine. I'll also recommend Stoner Acoustic UD120 as well.


----------



## mrmonday

golov17 said:


> I like HiFime DIY Sabre for my netbook


 
  
 Is that dual Sabres stacked?


clieos said:


> Haven't heard the C5 myself, but as far as I have read, it seems to be a warm sounding amp. My money is on the E12A because it has the MUSE02 inside, which is probably one of the best audio opamp around. The OPA2134 in C5 is however, good but nothing impressive.
> 
> 
> PCM2704 probably won't sound any better than your PC's built in DAC. Any of the HiFimeDIY's small USB DAC that is based on ESS Sabre chips should sound fine. I'll also recommend Stoner Acoustic UD120 as well.


 
 I would have to agree, and for 99% of my applications the E12A will be enough power. I am not really looking to upgrade my computer DAC, it is the Cirrus 4206BCNZ which is a pretty solid chip, but I am trying to bypass the internal amp to avoid double amping and the only way to do so is with an external DAC. However, I'm probably blowing this issue out of proportion because double amping doesn't seem to be a huge issue to a lot of people.


----------



## golov17

This DAC + USB Isolator


----------



## ClieOS

mrmonday said:


> I would have to agree, and for 99% of my applications the E12A will be enough power. I am not really looking to upgrade my computer DAC, it is the Cirrus 4206BCNZ which is a pretty solid chip, but I am trying to bypass the internal amp to avoid double amping and the only way to do so is with an external DAC. However, I'm probably blowing this issue out of proportion because double amping doesn't seem to be a huge issue to a lot of people.


 
  
 Double amping can sound fine and many times it isn't nearly as 'evil' as people make it out to be. Just remember to keep the volume on your PC high (usually around 90% is fine), then use E12A to control the volume.
  


golov17 said:


> This DAC + USB Isolator


 
  
 Just want to mention that - USB isolator, while nice, isn't a requirement most of the time unless the PC's USB is noticeably dirty / noisy or you're using the USB DAC for measurement.


----------



## golov17

VE RA (Runabout) 9V


----------



## ClieOS

golov17 said:


> VE RA (Runabout) 9V


 
  
 Should have one pretty soon.


----------



## golov17

We will wait for your opinion


----------



## RedJohn456

clieos said:


> Should have one pretty soon.


 
  
  
 Gonna get me one of those. Would love to read ur impressions on them! Any idea when ur getting them?


----------



## ClieOS

redjohn456 said:


> Gonna get me one of those. Would love to read ur impressions on them! Any idea when ur getting them?


 
  
 If there isn't any delay, probably around a week or two.


----------



## Ardian

hello 
  
 Do you think the Fiio E12A is a good choice for my Shure SE215 LE and my Sony MDR-1A?? I need a good bass boost to enjoy music from iPhone 6 (spotify and personal music).. or is better to save money for this and buy the cheaper Fiio E11K????
 How are the bass boost in comparison?
  
 Thank you


----------



## golov17

O2 for $70 ⛺


----------



## ClieOS

ardian said:


> hello
> 
> Do you think the Fiio E12A is a good choice for my Shure SE215 LE and my Sony MDR-1A?? I need a good bass boost to enjoy music from iPhone 6 (spotify and personal music).. or is better to save money for this and buy the cheaper Fiio E11K????
> How are the bass boost in comparison?
> ...


 
  
 If it is just bass boost you want, I'll suggest just trying out software EQ first, as iPhone 6 should be capable enough to drive SE215LE and MDR-1A. If you are not happy about that, then I'll suggest an amp. Unfortunately bass boost is pretty much like wine, and everyone seems to have his/her favorite. A person's great can be someone's not-enough and there is no way to say until you try it for yourself. I am probably not the best person to answer your question given I don't actually use bass boost much, but I'll say E12A is a class above E11K.
  


golov17 said:


> O2 for $70 ⛺


 
 That's a great deal.


----------



## golov17

Unfortunately, they do not send in Russia ..


----------



## golov17

Venture Electronics VE RunAbout Portable Earphone Amplifier
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Venture-Electronics-VE-RunAbout-Portable-Earphone-Amplifier/32417419249.html
(from AliExpress Android)


----------



## Ardian

clieos said:


> If it is just bass boost you want, I'll suggest just trying out software EQ first, as iPhone 6 should be capable enough to drive SE215LE and MDR-1A. If you are not happy about that, then I'll suggest an amp. Unfortunately bass boost is pretty much like wine, and everyone seems to have his/her favorite. A person's great can be someone's not-enough and there is no way to say until you try it for yourself. I am probably not the best person to answer your question given I don't actually use bass boost much, but I'll say E12A is a class above E11K.
> 
> That's a great deal.



I tried Eq via software, but I'm not satisfied and I need something that i can activate when I want the more easy possible!!

Do you know something smaller than E12 but without hiss hearing with my IEM?!


----------



## golov17

C&C BH2 ??


----------



## ClieOS

ardian said:


> I tried Eq via software, but I'm not satisfied and I need something that i can activate when I want the more easy possible!!
> 
> Do you know something smaller than E12 but without hiss hearing with my IEM?!


 
  
 SE215 LE is not known to be sensitive to hiss, and I think your original option of E11K should work out just fine for sub-$100 choice. An alternative of E12A for sub-$200 choice will be JDS Labs C5, which has a two level bass boost that might better fit what you want.


----------



## oliverpool

I been reading this thread and the sub $100 portable amp shootout as well. There seems to be only a few that meet my requirement (Mainly the fiio ones) I have been listening to music on my hifi system mainly. But due to a shift to a apartment, listening loudly is not that easy. I have a UE Triplefi 10 which I still love. I intend to get my first headphone, which is likely the hifiman 400i or a 2nd hand he560. My main device would be a 160GB Ipod or my iphone 6.  I would like need a amp. as such, base on my requirement below, in order of importance, what would you recommend? I would say item 1 is important and I may skip the rest till later.
  
 1. Amp to drive the he400i or he560 from my iphone/ipod and astro 50 mixamp for late night or loud movie watching via dolby headphone.
  
 2. direct connect to my Ipod or Iphone 6 via lightning port? for best quality
  
 3. Async USB for playing higher quality from my PC
  
 Still rather new to portable music so please forgive the terms I am using!


----------



## ClieOS

oliverpool said:


> I been reading this thread and the sub $100 portable amp shootout as well. There seems to be only a few that meet my requirement (Mainly the fiio ones) I have been listening to music on my hifi system mainly. But due to a shift to a apartment, listening loudly is not that easy. I have a UE Triplefi 10 which I still love. I intend to get my first headphone, which is likely the hifiman 400i or a 2nd hand he560. My main device would be a 160GB Ipod or my iphone 6.  I would like need a amp. as such, base on my requirement below, in order of importance, what would you recommend? I would say item 1 is important and I may skip the rest till later.
> 
> 1. Amp to drive the he400i or he560 from my iphone/ipod and astro 50 mixamp for late night or loud movie watching via dolby headphone.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Oppo HA-2.


----------



## Harley1962

OK, I know I am showing my "newbie-ness" here but is it fair (and reasonable) to compare these $200 price range units, when some are only (dedicated) amps, while others on the list are DAC / AMP combos?
  
 In looking over the list, is there a quick way to see (without reading the entire review, or going to an outside site to get specs)??
  
 I know there is a separate "recommendations for me" thread on this Forum, so I shall save that for the relevant thread.
  
 Many thanks,
  
 Harley


----------



## ClieOS

harley1962 said:


> OK, I know I am showing my "newbie-ness" here but is it fair (and reasonable) to compare these $200 price range units, when some are only (dedicated) amps, while others on the list are DAC / AMP combos?
> 
> In looking over the list, is there a quick way to see (without reading the entire review, or going to an outside site to get specs)??
> 
> ...


 
  
 No, it is not fair. But we have to make do with what we can get, not what we wish to have.


----------



## Harley1962

clieos said:


> No, it is not fair. But we have to make do with what we can get, not what we wish to have.


 

 Well, thank you for the very "philosophical" reply. I suppose the logical action would be to have separate reviews done of the "combo" units, so it's an "apple to apples" comparison?


----------



## ClieOS

harley1962 said:


> Well, thank you for the very "philosophical" reply. I suppose the logical action would be to have separate reviews done of the "combo" units, so it's an "apple to apples" comparison?


 
  
 Well, if you have plenty of passion, time and money, then sure, I suppose you can make it as apple-to-apple you like it to be.


----------



## Bazirker

harley1962 said:


> Well, thank you for the very "philosophical" reply. I suppose the logical action would be to have separate reviews done of the "combo" units, so it's an "apple to apples" comparison?


 
  
 Yeah this is a great thing to do if you are trying to publish in a peer-reviewed scientific journal.  If you want to figure out the best bang-for-buck as a customer?  Meh.  I prefer the way the information is presented here.


----------



## golov17

Hi all, new amp from C&C? Taobao search


----------



## golov17

http://m.intl.taobao.com/detail/detail.html?spm=0.0.0.0&id=9161991219


----------



## ClieOS

XO2 isn't a new amp. It is older than BH2 for at least a year or two.


----------



## golov17

clieos said:


> XO2 isn't a new amp. It is older than BH2 for at least a year or two.


Thx


----------



## golov17

Delete


----------



## CJG888

There even used to be a tube hybrid version!


----------



## Cornelisjuh

Im looking for a IEM portable amp, mainly for the Sennheiser IE80 and the http://www.head-fi.org/t/784376/new-audio-technica-solid-bass-flagship-iem-ath-cks1100
  
 ATH CKS-1100 Specifications:


> > Type: Dynamic
> > Driver Diameter: 12.5mm × 2
> > Sensitivity: 110dB / mW
> > Frequency Response: 5 ~ 40,000Hz
> ...


----------



## ClieOS

cornelisjuh said:


> Im looking for a IEM portable amp, mainly for the Sennheiser IE80 and the http://www.head-fi.org/t/784376/new-audio-technica-solid-bass-flagship-iem-ath-cks1100
> 
> ATH CKS-1100 Specifications:
> 
> ...


 
  
 E12A is a fine choice. You can pay double the price for another portable amp without any real improvement.


----------



## PaperbagGhost

Hi, between the C5D and E12A which would you say fits better for AKG K712?
 im open to other options as well, looking for a portable amp or amp+dac (maybe another desktop amp in near future )


----------



## ClieOS

paperbagghost said:


> Hi, between the C5D and E12A which would you say fits better for AKG K712?
> im open to other options as well, looking for a portable amp or amp+dac (maybe another desktop amp in near future )


 
  
 They should both driver K712 without a problem, but I reckon E12A might have better synergy with the AKG than C5D, at the cost of no DAC of course. If you can push your budget up a bit however, the Oppo HA-2 will be a great choice.


----------



## eyal1983

ClieOS,
 how's the Oppo HA-2 in comparison with the Objective2? power aside


----------



## ClieOS

eyal1983 said:


> ClieOS,
> how's the Oppo HA-2 in comparison with the Objective2? power aside


 
  
 Unfortunately my O2 is out of commission now and therefore I can't compare it to HA-2 until I have it repaired or replaced,


----------



## eyal1983

What about the iBasso D14 ("Bushmaster")?


----------



## ClieOS

eyal1983 said:


> What about the iBasso D14 ("Bushmaster")?


 
  
 Never own nor listened to the D14 before.


----------



## Grayson73

I'm new to DAC/Amp research so I have two questions:
   
 1.  I play my music from my Dell M6500 laptop and Nexus 6 phone to both IEMs and Headphones.  Will a DAC/AMP improve the sound quality?  If so, any recommendations for a portable one less than $150? 
 2.  If I don't need a DAC, any recommendations for amp less than $150?


----------



## ClieOS

grayson73 said:


> I'm new to DAC/Amp research so I have two questions:
> 
> 1.  I play my music from my Dell M6500 laptop and Nexus 6 phone to both IEMs and Headphones.  Will a DAC/AMP improve the sound quality?  If so, any recommendations for a portable one less than $150?
> 2.  If I don't need a DAC, any recommendations for amp less than $150?


 
  
 1. Assuming the DAC/amp is better (duh! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





)  than the internal DAC/amp of your laptop / smartphone, then yes. - in more 'real world' answer - I'll say there is a good chance that will be the case, as laptop headphone-out tends to be really high in output impedance and noise while smartphone headphone-out tends to be the same (though usually in lesser degree). Of course, we will also have to assume you will have the headphone to take advantage of the better SQ from a external USB/amp. The other issue is that, not every budget USB/DAC will work with Android (sometime they do and sometime they don't). Usually it also depends a lot on the particular smartphone (and I have no experience with Nexus 6 so I can't help you there). The two choices that will fit you budget are FiiO E18 and iBasso D-Zero MK2.
  
 2. Spend $10 on your budget and FiiO E12A will be a great choice. JDS Labs O2 will also be a great choice as well, though less portable.


----------



## estreeter

Hi All,
  
      If I get my act together this weekend, I'll be posting a comparative review between the Topping NX2 and another EBay special that cost me ~56USD delivered here in Oz. The second unit doesnt have a DAC, but it does have a socket allowing you to roll opamps - AFAIK, the only portable amp to offer this at such a modest price point. Hopefully this post will motivate me to do something beyond simply ranting about these amps  
  
 Later,
  
 estreeter,
 Celebrating 40 years as a Springsteen fan  (1976-2016)


----------



## Grayson73

clieos said:


> 1. Assuming the DAC/amp is better (duh!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks for the response.  From what I've been reading, it seems like both the FiiO E18 and iBasso D-Zero MK2 will work out of the Nexus 6 for all audio (Youtube, Spotify, etc) and not just for specific apps.  I guess I have to search for comparisons between the two.  Let me know if you have a preference.


----------



## Conext

Currently I'm using a Sony ZX2 paired with Senns IE800. At first, the, uh, shall we say, very revealing, vaguely harsh high end of the IE800s almost put me off. But now, with the resolution and separation inherent in both the ZX2 and IE800, I can't imagine a sound signature that I'd like better.
  
 However, I have been wondering lately if that signature could be enhanced by putting a little more power behind it. So, I've begun looking into portable amps.
  
 I was looking at the Cayin C5, but after going through the reviews, I'm a bit put off by the fact that it doesn't seem to play too well with IEMs (as in, channel imbalance at low volumes, very limited range of volume control even on low gain, etc.).
  
 Right now I'm drawn to two ends of the spectrum (as far as price): Fiio E12A and the Oppo HA-2.
  
 Obviously I like the E12A for its price. But the versatility of the HA-2 seems appealing as well.
  
 Given the fairly wide sound stage, very good separation, good resolving details and pretty aggressive highs of the ZX2 + IE800 combo, would anyone have an opinion as to whether or not the E12A or the HA-2 would pair better? Keeping mind I'm primarily just going to be amping the analog output (LO) from the ZX2.


----------



## ClieOS

conext said:


> Currently I'm using a Sony ZX2 paired with Senns IE800. At first, the, uh, shall we say, very revealing, vaguely harsh high end of the IE800s almost put me off. But now, with the resolution and separation inherent in both the ZX2 and IE800, I can't imagine a sound signature that I'd like better.
> 
> However, I have been wondering lately if that signature could be enhanced by putting a little more power behind it. So, I've begun looking into portable amps.
> 
> ...


 
  
 If this is any good source, I am probably  going to recommend E12A over HA-2 because E12A is a nicer sounding amp overall (as small the difference apart as they are) - but it is a Sony, so I am going to recommend HA-2 instead because, as an A10 owner myself, I have a sneaky suspicion that you will find ZX2 digital-out to HA-2 (which you will need to get a special cable for that) an improvement over ZH2's internal DAC+amp, on the reason of how poor the amp section Sony's DAP usually is (even on the line-out, as I have the chance to really measure my A10's output using an audio analyzer). Besides, HA-2 seems to fit your requirement of sound signature better.
  
 ...and seriously, if you buy the HA-2, you should definitely try to extract the digital-out from ZX2.


----------



## Conext

clieos said:


> If this is any good source, I am probably  going to recommend E12A over HA-2 because E12A is a nicer sounding amp overall (as small the difference apart as they are) - but it is a Sony, so I am going to recommend HA-2 instead because, as an A10 owner myself, I have a sneaky suspicion that you will find ZX2 digital-out to HA-2 (which you will need to get a special cable for that) an improvement over ZH2's internal DAC+amp, on the reason of how poor the amp section Sony's DAP usually is (even on the line-out, as I have the chance to really measure my A10's output using an audio analyzer). Besides, HA-2 seems to fit your requirement of sound signature better.
> 
> ...and seriously, if you buy the HA-2, you should definitely try to extract the digital-out from ZX2.


 
 Well, I never really liked the idea of using the digital out of the ZX2 for a number of reasons (battery life drops horribly, and it becomes nothing but a REALLY expensive transport). However, I keep finding myself drawn to the versatility of the HA-2. Want an amp? Want a DAC? Want a battery backup? Want to use it on Windows, Mac, iOS and Android? No problem! It can do all that while making julienne fries!
  
 But seriously, it does pique my interest from the perspective of being able to pair it as a DAC to other devices, like my android phone or iPad.
  
 I'll definitely keep your recommendation in mind. Thanks.


----------



## ClieOS

conext said:


> Well, I never really liked the idea of using the digital out of the ZX2 for a number of reasons (battery life drops horribly, and it becomes nothing but a REALLY expensive transport). However, I keep finding myself drawn to the versatility of the HA-2. Want an amp? Want a DAC? Want a battery backup? Want to use it on Windows, Mac, iOS and Android? No problem! It can do all that while making julienne fries!
> 
> But seriously, it does pique my interest from the perspective of being able to pair it as a DAC to other devices, like my android phone or iPad.
> 
> I'll definitely keep your recommendation in mind. Thanks.


 
  
 My advise to you is, don't knock it till you've tried it. Might surprise yourself there. Also, with the right OTG cable , HA-2 actually will NOT draw any power from the source (check out the HA-2 thread if you are interested) - so you don't need to worry about battery life dropping significantly with your ZX2.


----------



## estreeter

FWIW, I found the proprietary digital connection between the ZX1 and PHA-2 better than anything else I combined the ZX1 with - I'm not suggesting that Sony have any magical digital voodoo, but it was a significant step up over the headphone out from the ZX1 by itself. At the time, my other portable DAC/amps were tthe ADL X1 and the Chord Hugo, and I never considered the Hugo truly 'portable'. I'm not a huge fan of the PHA-3's form factor, but the sonics seem to get good reviews - just throwing it out there before Conext goes any further down the road to fiscal ruin  
  
 Sorry for your wallet, Amigo, but we've all been there.


----------



## Conext

estreeter said:


> FWIW, I found the proprietary digital connection between the ZX1 and PHA-2 better than anything else I combined the ZX1 with - I'm not suggesting that Sony have any magical digital voodoo, but it was a significant step up over the headphone out from the ZX1 by itself. At the time, my other portable DAC/amps were tthe ADL X1 and the Chord Hugo, and I never considered the Hugo truly 'portable'. I'm not a huge fan of the PHA-3's form factor, but the sonics seem to get good reviews - just throwing it out there before Conext goes any further down the road to fiscal ruin
> 
> Sorry for your wallet, Amigo, but we've all been there.


 
 Well, after going back and forth between the HA-2 and E12A, I finally took the plunge on the HA-2 after finding this helpful blurb:
  


> More accessible universal earphones also performed very well indeed with the HA-2 with some common perceptions of how some pairings would go thankfully not materializing such as the treble tricky IE800 which largely behaved using both the PC and OTG connections. I was half expecting the traces of lower treble glare in the HA-2 to amplify with the IE800 and produce a really uneven experience but in actual fact it remained relatively low profile with a greater emphasis on articulation and detail which both the HA-2 and IE800 are pretty good at. The dynamics of the HA-2 also suited the IE800’s superior sound staging and bass performance. Atmospheric synth driven tracks such as Francisca Valenzuela’s “Armadura” sounded fresh and snappy with a reassuringly responsive bassline on the IE800/HA-2 match.


 
 That's precisely one of the concerns I had in regards to driving the IE800. So it would seem that not only is it not a concern, but in fact, matches well with the HA-2. Of course, ultimately, I'll have to be the final judge. But hey, even if it sounds terrible to me, then at least I'll have a terribly stylish place mat onto which I can rest my components.


----------



## turen009

How does the HA-2 goes with xduoo x3 ot iBasso dx90?


----------



## estreeter

@Conext, I'm happy to hear that you found the device that best fits your current needs - happy days.


----------



## ellenzu

what are the best amp/dac for destop under $200 now? ( im using ASG 2.5)


----------



## ClieOS

ellenzu said:


> what are the best amp/dac for destop under $200 now? ( im using ASG 2.5)


 
  
 If it is going to be desktop use, then there is no reason to get something with a battery. One of the best setup for $200 is probably Schiit Audio Modi 2 + Magni 2.


----------



## ellenzu

clieos said:


> If it is going to be desktop use, then there is no reason to get something with a battery. One of the best setup for $200 is probably Schiit Audio Modi 2 + Magni 2.


 
 so it's gonna be 
 This item:Modi 2 USB Digital/Analog Converter $119.00
 Magni 2 Headphone Amplifier $119.00
 PYST RCA Cables (6 inches) $24.00
 right?


----------



## ClieOS

ellenzu said:


> so it's gonna be
> This item:Modi 2 USB Digital/Analog Converter $119.00
> Magni 2 Headphone Amplifier $119.00
> PYST RCA Cables (6 inches) $24.00
> right?


 
  
 Your price seems to be slightly higher than that of Schiit.
  
 You don't need a $24 6-inches RCA cable. A good quality 1.5ft RCA interconnecting cable from monoprice is only $2.35. But I guess it won't hurt to pay just a little more.


----------



## ellenzu

clieos said:


> Your price seems to be slightly higher than that of Schiit.
> 
> You don't need a $24 6-inches RCA cable. A good quality 1.5ft RCA interconnecting cable from monoprice is only $2.35. But I guess it won't hurt to pay just a little more.


 
 I do need to use the 1/8 Inch to 1/4 Inch adapter right? if so, does the quality reduced?


----------



## ClieOS

ellenzu said:


> I do need to use the 1/8 Inch to 1/4 Inch adapter right? if so, does the quality reduced?


 

 Yes, and no.


----------



## eyal1983

How's the Matrix M-Stage USB (200$) versus the O2 / Magni-2 ?


----------



## ClieOS

eyal1983 said:


> How's the Matrix M-Stage USB (200$) versus the O2 / Magni-2 ?


 
  
 Never listened to any of Matrix's products before, so I can't really comment on its quality.


----------



## yuping

@ClieOS
  
 E12a works great with IEM, since it was designed to amplify IEM. But What about headphones such as the HD650? will E12a still powerful enough in this case? or do you think the O2 is more suitable and capable to drive large headphones? thanks!


----------



## ClieOS

yuping said:


> @ClieOS
> 
> E12a works great with IEM, since it was designed to amplify IEM. But What about headphones such as the HD650? will E12a still powerful enough in this case? or do you think the O2 is more suitable and capable to drive large headphones? thanks!


 
  
 E12A is fine with most full size. Based on spec, HD600 shouldn't be a problem as well - though I can't tell you how good the combo will be as I don't own HD600. In comparison, O2 will have more power than E12A. But in the case of HD600, they should both have more than enough.


----------



## yuping

@ClieOS.
 Thanks a lot!!


----------



## dubstepnext

Hey /Clieos great thread!!
Since it's a bit outdated I wanna ask what's the most reasonably priced AMP for iBassodx90?
I have the topping nx1 - nice but hardly handles the sony z7...
Is there an amp that can handle regular 3.5mm or coaxial? 
Another important thing is the bass and a connection to pc's USB 

Thought of the fiio e12, cayenne 5(although I don't think it's gotta 3.5mm analog in) or the ibasso T5...
Any help will be great

Thanks


----------



## ClieOS

dubstepnext said:


> Hey /Clieos great thread!!
> Since it's a bit outdated I wanna ask what's the most reasonably priced AMP for iBassodx90?
> I have the topping nx1 - nice but hardly handles the sony z7...
> Is there an amp that can handle regular 3.5mm or coaxial?
> ...


 
  
 Regular 3.5mm and coax are two different things - the former takes a regular analog signal (i.e. headphone-out or line-out) while the later takes a digital signal (= S/PDIF). An amplifier, by definition, only take analog signal and not digital signal. Therefore it is impossible for an amp to have a coax input. If you want to use a coax-input, you will need to use a DAC/amp.
  
 Never heard of an amp called 'cayenne 5' before. iBasso T5 has been discontinued for years now. Instead of E12, I'll recommend E12A for Z7 as E12A is better sounding (while still more than adequate for Z7).
  
 HOWEVER - given what you had posted (coax, USB, etc), you are really not looking for an pure amp but a DAC/amp, so E12A probably isn't what you want either. I think you need to figure out what you want first before asking for recommendation.


----------



## svmusa

Question from a bass lover perspective, I have an old Fiio E07K Dac/Amp and paired with JVC DX1000 with Bass (+10) and treble (+8) settings has been a great fun combo for me, the synergy between the amp and phones seems to work great to my ears. 
  
 I am trying to replicate this bass shaking setup for my TH900 Mk2 phones. E07k does fine with these phones but it is not able to scale close to the DX1000 fun factor plus I have to decrease the treble setting to (0) as TH900 is bright for me in the highs on some recordings.
  
 Any thoughts which amp with bass boost could be a decent option for TH900? The Fiio E12 and E17 have the bass boost options, though not reviewed here JDS Labs C5D (hoping is closer to C5 review findings here) is another contender. Having a DAC in the amp is not a must but helps to carry less gadgets.


----------



## dubstepnext

Thanks for the response, I know that coax is digital but I have a dap.
So I narrowed it down to:
Sorry to hassle- I need your advise- I have a ibasso dx90 and I need a better amp/dad.
I'm considering oppo- ha-5- which is not cheap but gets great reviews, the xDuoo xd-05 which is new so no reviews or the cheap but well respected Fiio q1.
The most important thing is the bass and handling high impedence headphones (Sony z7)
Thanks


----------



## ClieOS

svmusa said:


> ... though not reviewed here JDS Labs C5D (hoping is closer to C5 review findings here) is another contender. Having a DAC in the amp is not a must but helps to carry less gadgets


 
  
 C5 and C5D should be near identical sounding as both share the same amp section.
  


dubstepnext said:


> Thanks for the response, I know that coax is digital but I have a dap.
> So I narrowed it down to:
> Sorry to hassle- I need your advise- I have a ibasso dx90 and I need a better amp/dad.
> I'm considering oppo- ha-5- which is not cheap but gets great reviews, the xDuoo xd-05 which is new so no reviews or the cheap but well respected Fiio q1.
> ...


 
  
 I never know that Oppo has a HA-5. If you are referring to HA-2, you should know it doesn't have a coax-in so it won't works as DAC/amp for DX90. Same goes for Q1. Never listen to XD-05 before so I won't comment on it.


----------



## west0ne

dubstepnext said:


> Thanks for the response, I know that coax is digital but I have a dap.
> So I narrowed it down to:
> Sorry to hassle- I need your advise- I have a ibasso dx90 and I need a better amp/dad.
> I'm considering oppo- ha-5- which is not cheap but gets great reviews, the xDuoo xd-05 which is new so no reviews or the cheap but well respected Fiio q1.
> ...


 
 I have the Q1 and although good it has no digital input as already stated and I'm not sure how well it would serve high impedance headphones; I tried the Oppo-HA2 before eventually settling on the iBasso D14; it was cheaper, sounded just as good and has both co-ax and optical inputs so was a bit more versatile. The D14 doesn't look as good as the Oppo-HA2 and isn't pocketable, although it is portable and it gets my K702s louder than I could comfortably listen. It doesn't have any bass control though so is fairly neutral in that sense. Sorry to throw another option for you to consider.


----------



## ClieOS

west0ne said:


> I have the Q1 and although good it has no digital input ...


 
  
 Q1 does have USB-in...


----------



## west0ne

clieos said:


> Q1 does have USB-in...


 
 Sorry; I should have been more specific. It does have USB input but not co-ax or optical digital inputs which I believe would be needed for the dx90 being asked about.


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## ClieOS

west0ne said:


> Sorry; I should have been more specific. It does have USB input but not co-ax or optical digital inputs which I believe would be needed for the dx90 being asked about.


 
  
 IIRC, iBasso's DAP usually only does coax-out,but not optical. Optical is more of an A&K's thing.


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## mrmonday

I purchased the Fostex t40rp mk3 and they were just shipped. What would be the ideal portable amp for these? I have been looking at the Fiio E12 and E12A as well as the Cayin C5 and spark C5. If I save up I could potentially afford the Oppo HA-2. I will be using either a macbook air or an iPhone 6 as my player most of the time. Also I ordered the Fostex TH-X00 PH but that won't be arriving for some time.


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## ClieOS

mrmonday said:


> I purchased the Fostex t40rp mk3 and they were just shipped. What would be the ideal portable amp for these? I have been looking at the Fiio E12 and E12A as well as the Cayin C5 and spark C5. If I save up I could potentially afford the Oppo HA-2. I will be using either a macbook air or an iPhone 6 as my player most of the time. Also I ordered the Fostex TH-X00 PH but that won't be arriving for some time.


 
  
 HA-2 will be ideal for PC and iPhone use though I am not sure if it has enough power for T40RP MK3 or not, given T40RP MK3 is slightly demanding. Cayin C5 and Spark C5 is the same thing btw, as Spark is one of Cayin's sub-brand. Both E12, E12A and C5 should have enough power to drive the Fostex, based on spec.


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## mrmonday

clieos said:


> HA-2 will be ideal for PC and iPhone use though I am not sure if it has enough power for T40RP MK3 or not, given T40RP MK3 is slightly demanding. Cayin C5 and Spark C5 is the same thing btw, as Spark is one of Cayin's sub-brand. Both E12, E12A and C5 should have enough power to drive the Fostex, based on spec.


 
 Sorry I meant C5 and C5 DAC but it looks like the C5 is more powerful. I might get the Dragonfly Red and the Cayin C5 and see how that combo works. Also the Aune B1 looks interesting.


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## ClieOS

mrmonday said:


> Sorry I meant C5 and C5 DAC but it looks like the C5 is more powerful. I might get the Dragonfly Red and the Cayin C5 and see how that combo works. Also the Aune B1 looks interesting.


 
  
 Aune B1 just lacks power, so avoid it if you can since you have demanding headphone. Given DragonFly Red and C5 will probably add up to about $350+, I am more inclined to suggest you save up a bit and get the iFi Audio's micro iDSD for $500 instead. That way you get one of the best DAC implementation south of $1K mark and definitely one of the most powerful amp section (4W!!!) you can find on any portable amp.


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## MojoTaco

I'm looking for a portable amp to mount on motorcycle helmet and connect with helmet mounted Sena Bluetooth comm unit getting streamed music from iphone 6+, with helmet installed Audio Technica ATH40s plugged into amp, ideas?


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## ClieOS

mojotaco said:


> I'm looking for a portable amp to mount on motorcycle helmet and connect with helmet mounted Sena Bluetooth comm unit getting streamed music from iphone 6+, with helmet installed Audio Technica ATH40s plugged into amp, ideas?


 
  
 I took a brief look on those Sena BT unit. My guess is you probably want more convenience (especially on battery life and overall size) rather than SQ, so perhaps FiiO A1 will fit your bill?


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## MojoTaco

Thanks, what about ZO2?


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## MojoTaco

Also heard from ADVRider who likes PA2V2


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## ClieOS

mojotaco said:


> Thanks, what about ZO2?


 
  
 DigiZoid is pretty much defunct for the last two years, and there is no way for you to get a ZO2 except for 2nd hand unit. While I do enjoy my ZO2, I won't recommend it at this point.
  


mojotaco said:


> Also heard from ADVRider who likes PA2V2


 
  
 PA2V2 is technological outdated. It isn't a particularly innovative design to begin with and frankly it is kind of a surprise that it lasts so long. There are quite a few issues with its design and it was never as good a performer as the creator claims it to be. If you are willing to carry an amp of that size, a FiiO A3 of the same price will offer much better return in both SQ and performance. Even the JDS Labs cmoyBB will be a better choice than PA2V2.


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## mrmonday

clieos said:


> Aune B1 just lacks power, so avoid it if you can since you have demanding headphone. Given DragonFly Red and C5 will probably add up to about $350+, I am more inclined to suggest you save up a bit and get the iFi Audio's micro iDSD for $500 instead. That way you get one of the best DAC implementation south of $1K mark and definitely one of the most powerful amp section (4W!!!) you can find on any portable amp.


 
 Thanks for the heads up on the Aune! I am currently still trying to decide, $350 is the most I can spend. So I have narrowed it down to either the DragonFly Red + Cayin C5 or the Arrow 6TX. It seems to me that the Red + C5 combo would have more power but maybe the 6TX has higher quality components.


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## simonecosta75

Hello mate i need your help
 at first sorry for my english , i live on italy and my english is bad
 i have  one fiio x3 1st edition and audio technica ath-m50x .
 i hase the audio technica whit fiio x3 , whit ipad and whit samsun s7 edge .. but i think need upgrade the sound whit Amps
  
 whict is the best for my item under 200 euro ?
  
  i like sound warm and open , more detail in mid-high rage , and hate the bass
  
 i have read more page in this forum and i think is a good choise the Fiio e12a , but for more test the JDS ob 2 is better ..
  
 help me .. thx
  
 p.s: if i change the fiio x3 whit fiio x5 2 generation is a great upgrade ?


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## ClieOS

simonecosta75 said:


> Hello mate i need your help
> at first sorry for my english , i live on italy and my english is bad
> i have  one fiio x3 1st edition and audio technica ath-m50x .
> i hase the audio technica whit fiio x3 , whit ipad and whit samsun s7 edge .. but i think need upgrade the sound whit Amps
> ...


 
  
 My general opinion is that you should always consider upgrading your headphone first, then your source second, and your amp last.


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## simonecosta75

Mmm ok 
I try to change the Source 
One greath Source whit Ware and detailded sound under 500 $ ?


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## ClieOS

simonecosta75 said:


> Mmm ok
> I try to change the Source
> One greath Source whit Ware and detailded sound under 500 $ ?


 
  
 Unfortunately $500 won't really give you to the top end level DAP, but X5II is still a very solid choice. If you need more power in the future, you can always get a E12A.


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## simonecosta75

X5 is greath but i need a gear for tidal streaming..
Under 500 used?


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## golov17

simonecosta75 said:


> X5 is greath but i need a gear for tidal streaming..
> Under 500 used?


 http://www.echoboxaudio.com/explorer.aspx
http://echobox-audio.myshopify.com/products/explorer


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## simonecosta75

Nice ..
But the pioneer or the onkyo dp ?


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## golov17

simonecosta75 said:


> Nice ..
> But the pioneer or the onkyo dp ?


POWER

TEXAS INSTRUMENTS TPA6120A2 300MW/CHANNEL @ 32 OHMS, SNR 128DB inside Explorer DAP


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## simonecosta75

Wow .. but i want quality over quantity
I have a pair of audiotechnica m50x ..
Sony zx100 ? Fioo x7?
Thx


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## golov17

simonecosta75 said:


> Wow .. but i want quality over quantity
> I have a pair of audiotechnica m50x ..
> Sony zx100 ? Fioo x7?
> Thx


prices..


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## sennheiserhd485

ClieOS,

 Would you happen to know how the OBJECTIVE2+ODAC REV B sounds when paired with HD600? I am wondering if the synergy is optimal there. I'm also wondering if the amp has enough power to cure HD600s slow and veiled nature.


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## ClieOS

sennheiserhd485 said:


> ClieOS,
> 
> Would you happen to know how the OBJECTIVE2+ODAC REV B sounds when paired with HD600? I am wondering if the synergy is optimal there. I'm also wondering if the amp has enough power to cure HD600s slow and veiled nature.


 
  
 No idea.


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## marcuscmy

Anything with power components inside the same casing is capable of hissing due to electrical interference if not properly dealt with.


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## Roen (Nov 25, 2018)

I'd also like to say, unless you're sure you like reference or neutral amps, getting an amp with slight sound colouring isn't the end of the world. In fact, you might actually like it.

I personally like reference DAC and reference Amp, because that lets me worry about coloring the sound with the speaker only, instead of the interaction of DAC + Amp + Speaker.


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## eyal1983

Did someone try the Liquid Spark?


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## somshankar

I am buying the Monolith M1060 from Monoprice. getting it from someone on head-fi. I am looking for a good headphone amp that best fits it. I am looking for a budget amp not exceeding 150$ . I use a Fiio x5 2nd gen for source. I mostly play FLAC,DSD on the player. It will be good if it can also run off laptop USB without external power. But if needs be i can adjust.


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## kmhaynes

somshankar said:


> I am buying the Monolith M1060 from Monoprice. getting it from someone on head-fi. I am looking for a good headphone amp that best fits it. I am looking for a budget amp not exceeding 150$ . I use a Fiio x5 2nd gen for source. I mostly play FLAC,DSD on the player. It will be good if it can also run off laptop USB without external power. But if needs be i can adjust.


I have the Liquid Spark.  It has / needs a dedicated power source, but it is a very nice amp with just a hint of warmness.  I run it out of my laptop headphone jack into the Liquid Spark RCA to my Grado RS2e.  Plenty of power.  I need to buy a USB to RCA adapter to see if I can bypass the headphone jack and get a fuller audio signal from the USB driver.


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## Evshrug

I’ve always been curious about the Liquid Spark, but I haven’t been able to try it yet. The benefit of externally powered amps is that they do usually have more power to supply to a wider range of headphones, so it continues to be useful even with harder to drive full-size headphones, but even so the dimensions of the Liquid Spark seem like they would be compact enough to go into a backpack and be a transportable amp, even if it isn’t fully portable like a battery powered amp.

Just so you know, with a digital output like USB and an analog input to your amp like RCA, an adapter like you mentioned will have a DAC built in-line with the cable. Nothing wrong with that! An Apple USB-C to 3.5mm dongle, Audioquest Dragonfly, Apogee Groove, and many many more options exist for you to choose at all price levels!

@somshankar the FiiO X5 itself should have an option to plug into a laptop and act as a portable DAC/amp, to get you started! And then when you’re near power, you can use the X5’s line-out mode instead of the headphone out so that the FiiO just acts as a DAC with a clean output to the amp of your choice.


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