# DMM for life?



## peterpan188

I am in the quest in looking for a new DMM. I am still in school, going for a electrical engineer degree, so I guess a good meter will last me for a life. I probably wouldn't just use it for DIY audio, also on anything that will come up in the future jobs/project. Measurements should including mV, mA, ohmic values in single digit, may be good capacitance readings too. So I guess a good $100+ Fluke DMM would be nice.


 How are the Fluke 189 and 179 compared? I know there is something called 4 wires resistance measurement, are these 2 DMM capacable of such?

 I looked on eBay, and saw this Fluke 177 going for less than $150, and some Fluke 189 going for around 200. Do they look good for your guys? HMC is selling 179 for $240 and 189 for $412, do the eBay ones look like scam to you?


 Thanks,
 Peter


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## ashpool

I recently bought a Fluke 189, and it's a great multimeter. My only wish is that it could measure beta/Hfe, but I don't think *any* Fluke DMMs will measure that. I had been using a Fluke 27 for a long time (also a great DMM, built like a tank), but the lack of capacitance measurement was what drove me to get the 189.

 If you want to know how the 170 and 180 series compare, check out this page. I don't know what the 4 wires resistance measurement is, so I can't help you there...

 Fluke makes really great DMMs; they're very pricey, but they'll also last a very long time. My Fluke 27 was actually passed down to me from my Dad when I went to college. If there's a such thing as an heirloom multimeter, Fluke makes them
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.

 The pictures on that ebay auction look legitimate; my retail-bought 189 came in very similar packaging.


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## peterpan188

Although the guy on eBay got pretty good feedback, but only paying with money order makes me worried. How's the 189 working out for you, ashpool? Did you look at the 179 before you jump on the 189? 

 How much difference do 179 and 189 work out in real life? Or spec-wise?

 Thanks,
 Peter


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## peterpan188

Ahhhh, I see now that the 170 series don't have capacitance, so i guess that's what worth the money. totally overlooked that.

 How much did you guys paid for the 189? On eBay or retail?

 Thanks,
 Peter


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## blueworm

170 series do have capacitance even the cheaper 110 series has it also.


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## ashpool

The 170 series also measures capacitance. If you look at the comparison page I linked to earlier, you can see that the 180 series differs from the 170 series in terms of range for certain measurements and basic DC accuracy. Also, the 180 series does true RMS readings for AC+DC, while the 170 series only does it for AC.

 The 189 is working out great for me so far. I didn't really look at the 170 series before getting the 189. I bought my 189 from Fry's, a local electronics retailer that everbody hates, but it's the only game in town, so we shop there anyways... I paid around $410. I don't think I'll ever use the logging feature, but the 187 and 189 were almost the same price.

 If I were still a student, I probably would have done a little more research and considered my needs more carefully before buying a new DMM. I also probably would have looked on eBay, instead of going for the instant gratification of buying it at Fry's. As it is, I work too much and have limited time for personal projects, so I bought the 189 because I knew I wouldn't have to deal with DMM-related issues.


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## Uncle Erik

I bought the Fluke 187 not so long ago. For some reason, the local Fry's had them at (if I remember correctly) $309 and the 189 was about $379 at the time. I didn't need the logging feature anyhow, so I got the 187. It's a great meter and couldn't be happier with it.

 But if I were a student, I'd take a look at the Fluke 12. I have one of them, too. It handles capacitance and has quite a few other good features. I think they retail around $100, but you can often find them used for $50 or so. That's probably the best deal out there.


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## amb

I am also a happy Fluke 187 owner. It's a great autoranging meter with superb specs and some nifty frills. No transistor Hfe measurement, but I do have another el cheapo meter that does.


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## NeilR

I have bought several 10,000 count Wavetek meters off of Ebay for $15-$50. They are very good meters. They don't have the sex appeal of the Flukes but they are very well made. As a result they get very little bidding on ebay. Everybody is too busy bidding up the Flukes.


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## bigcat39

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NeilR* 
_I have bought several 10,000 count Wavetek meters off of Ebay for $15-$50. They are very good meters. They don't have the sex appeal of the Flukes but they are very well made. As a result they get very little bidding on ebay. Everybody is too busy bidding up the Flukes._

 

I agree with Neil on this, Waveteks can be a bargain. But they are MUCH more delicate.
 If you can afford it, a Fluke 189 is nearly a lifetime investment.... like my HP calculator. They are TOUGH instruments.
 I don't know of any handheld that does 4 wire. Gotta go to a benchtop for that.
 BTW, I'm a metrologist, I know of what I speak.
 ...Bill


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## hell0un1verse

Is 189 the most decent one by Fluke?


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## peterpan188

Crap, then I skipped a great price for a 179, it was sold for $125 last night. Oh well, good reason to go on a 189. 

 I saw another 189 on eBay this morning, no original package (no probes, like-new condition, probably going for under $170, do you guys think its a good deal?

 Thanks,
 Peter


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## JahJahBinks

189 is the best DMM fluke makes.


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## mb3k

You should try the 73 III, or 77 III also. I've heard enough positive comments about those that I just bought one from Ebay.


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## tangent

Quote:


 Originally Posted by *peterpan188*
_Measurements should including...ohmic values in single digit_

 

 I'm not certain, but I think you can get accuracy better than 1 ohm on the Fluke 189. From my reading of the specs page, it looks like the worst case error on the lowest range is +/- 0.35 ohms.

 This assumes you keep it calibrated, of course. Budget $50 per year for calibration services if maintaining this level of accuracy is important to you.
  
  Quote:


I know there is something called 4 wires resistance measurement
 

 From what you wrote, I don't think you can afford 4 wire measurement. The cheapest name brand meter I'm aware of that will do that is a Keithley model 2000, which will run you over $1000 new.

 You can find used 4-wire meters for less money, but they'll probably be less accurate than a Fluke 189, if they're in your price range.
  
  Quote:


How much difference do 179 and 189 work out in real life?
 

 The 179 is a 6,000 count instrument, whereas the 189 is a 50,000 count instrument. All else being equal, that means that the 189 can give readings that are over 8x more accurate. All else probably isn't equal, but the main point remains.

 If you're looking to save money, go with the 187 over the 189. I don't believe I've ever used the data logging feature of my 189, which I believe is the only thing it has over the 187.
  
  Quote:


189 is the best DMM fluke makes.
 

 Ah, no. This is the best DMM Fluke makes. It'll run you about $9,500.


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## NeilR

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigcat39* 
_... But they are MUCH more delicate....Bill_

 

What exactly is MUCH more delicate about my Waveteks?


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## splaz

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigcat39* 
_If you can afford it, a Fluke 189 is nearly a lifetime investment.... like my HP calculator._

 

ROFL... HP ???

 My HP 39G+ calculator died inexplicably a month or two out of warranty. Serious firmware issues... it would turn on but I'd get a computer style "blue screen of death" amongst other issues.

 I wasn't the only one either. Many people back in high school had issues with it.

 A little OT but yeah... that was hardly a lifetime investment. More like a short term loss.


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## hell0un1verse

Quote:


 Ah, no. This is the best DMM Fluke makes. It'll run you about $9,500. 
 

So 189 is best Fluke hand-held DMM


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## tangent

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *splaz* 
_My HP 39G+ calculator died inexplicably a month or two out of warranty._

 

I'm certain that our resident metrologist was talking about pre-Carly HP. I have both an HP 48GX and a 49G+, and the "old" 48 is far and away a better built unit. I'm also a fan of the 20S as a programmer's calculator, which totally dominates its modern replacement, the 30S, from a durability standpoint.

 EDIT: They shoulda given the calculator division to Agilent when they split that off. Agilent kept the HP ethic alive.

 So using that to segue this thread back on topic... bigcat39, what do you think of Agilent's lower end DMMs? From my investigations of the entry level 4-wire DMMs, it looks like the 34410A is the best thing going right now. The Keithley Model 2000 is the only other unit that caught my attention, and it doesn't seem to be a big enough step up from a Fluke 189. Keithley's line seems to get too steep going up from there -- their higher-end models seem more oriented toward ATE applications. And Fluke doesn't even offer a reasonably priced 4-wire DMM.

 Are there other options you'd consider in the 34410A's range?


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## splaz

True. I had heard good things about the old models and nobody I knew had trouble with them. Just pointing out that some of the new HP calculators have quality issues.


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## ashpool

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tangent* 
_I'm certain that our resident metrologist was talking about pre-Carly HP. I have both an HP 48GX and a 49G+, and the "old" 48 is far and away a better built unit. I'm also a fan of the 20S as a programmer's calculator, which totally dominates its modern replacement, the 30S, from a durability standpoint._

 

I know the calculator conversation is getting more and more offtopic, but I just had to agree with you. It was a sad day when I lost my 48GX on an airplane. I got a 49G to replace it, but the build quality and button feel on the 49 series just makes me sad.


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## peterpan188

Trying to set a limit to spend on a Fluke now. How's $170 for a 187 and $200 for a 189, both on ebay?

 Thanks,
 Peter


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## DaKi][er

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tangent* 
_Are there other options you'd consider in the 34410A's range?_

 

If you want to go a little more budget and 2nd hand, there is the HP3456A which is older and fewer features, compared to the 34410A. You could pick one up over ebay for around $200USD
 Just they are a killer when it comes to bench space, being more at home in a full size rack, but I’ve been using one for about 9 months now and I wouldn’t go back to a hand held meter for bench work after using this

 Though the 34410A sure looks tempting for an upgrade (but out of reach for a poor student like me)


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## peranders

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *peterpan188* 
_Measurements should including mV, mA, ohmic values in single digit..._

 

I'll guess you have to check the specifications a but further. NO DMM has such properties!

 My recommendation is that you first examine your real needs today. How accurate must the DMM be? 1%, 0.1%, better? Check how much money you can put on this.

 If it's just for hobby, buy something cheap now when you are a poor student. Buy something better when you have a REAl need for it.

 I use Fluke and APPA at work but as for hobby Fluke is a bit overkill.


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## Uncle Erik

For you fellow Fluke geeks, look here:

http://shop.csepromo.com/Fluke/

 Fluke has great deals on their swag. I got a nice hat for $3.25 and a t-shirt for $5.00. And yes, I do wear them in public. Though they really add that something "extra" with a hot soldering iron in your hand.

 More substantially, I'd recommend the 187 over the 189. Unless you really plan to use the logging feature (the only difference) the 187 is the same thing at a lower price. And again, check out the 12. It has all the features you said you wanted. It's a good little meter.

 Also, I came pretty close to picking up the HP 3456A... they're really nice, but I could find the room for one. I will get one once I have a place to put a proper bench.

 As for HP calculators, the old ones are superb. Except Carly saw fit to gut that department, too. Just awful. Good thing the old ones hold up. For almost 10 years, I've been attached to a 1986 12C. Picked it up used for $2 in a junk store and it got me through beancounter school. I have a few others, but the 12C is my favorite. Except the new ones, which aren't RPN only and have that platinum look. Sacrilege. Pure sacrilege. Don't get me started.


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## tomb

I worked at this for weeks after seeing the last thread about buying Flukes on ebay. The 180 series was just too expensive for me. I wanted a 175, 177, or 179. In the first week or two, I saw a couple of 175's and 177's go for around $100 new, in-the-box. That got me excited. Try as might, though - I lost every bid for one in the last 30 seconds (that's no exagerration!) by as much as $50.

 I also kept an eye on the Fluke 73-III's -especially since reading that Tangent had used a 73 for years. By the way - Tangent's articles on DIY toolkits are priceless. He has three sets of prospective tool selections - Beginner, Journeyman, and Expert ... or something like that, and his meter suggestions are a great starting point.

 Anyway, for a long while, I saw that the 73's were going for almost $150 new, and $75-$100 used! One finally came up that ended on a weird time - about 10 AM on a weekday morning - and I won the bid at $51 for a new, in-the-box Fluke 73-III!

 So what did I learn?
 * Flukes are high demand items, bidding wars are common and frequent!
 * Don't get married to a single model,
 * Stay disciplined - don't get caught up in a bidding war for a used meter - there are always NEW ones if you remain patient, and
 * Finally, because of their high demand, look for Fluke listings that end at some other time than prime time.

 Oh - that last one may not hold, either - multiple listings on a Sunday night will divide the available bidders, so that you may still get a good price. That's what happened on that first night I started looking when the new 175's and 177's went for around $100. Prime time during the week is probably the worst deal.


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## bigcat39

Yes, I am most certainly speaking of the older, unCarlyized 48 series. I have a 49G+, and it is miserable. Anyways.....
 The Agilent 34410 is the best bargain in benchtop meters in the world. I own 14 34401A, they are so stable I use one as a check standard for my 5720 calibration standard. STAY AWAY FROM KEITHLEY @ ALL COSTS. I have my 2002's on a 3 month cal cycle, and they still go out of spec.
 I also own an accurized 3458A, AND an 8508. The killer thing about the 8508 is the ratioing ability between the front and rear inputs. Hows about 4 ppm TOTAL uncertainty in resistance measurements???
 I say waveteks (actually Meterman now, Fluke bought all the good parts of Wavetek) are delicate because of their physical delicacy. Drop one 10 ft. to concrete and it's done. I'm pretty sure you could run over a 189 and it would just laugh. I've never seen one break.... and I have a couple of hundred.
 My personal at home meter is a 179. If I need resistor matching, I take 'em to work. I have an automated bridge.....
 There are great bargains on Ebay for benchtop meters, if you want 4 wire. PM me b4 you buy.


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## NeilR

Tomb,

 You were lucky, and very persistent. It is the nature of auctions that there are always "dealers" of some sort or another that put nets under offerings. As you found out, just because you see something sell for $100 does not mean you could have bought it for $100. You never know the winning bidder's max bid.

 There are "Sniping Services" geared to ebay, where you place bids with a 3rd party via internet software and specify the number of seconds (yes, seconds) prior to close that you want your bid fired off. You can also create Snipping Groups, where you can place bids on multiple similar offerings, and your snipe service stops your bids when you win a lot. That means that serious ebay bidders do not get hung up when multiple items close in a short period of time and they do not have to sit around waiting for the lots to close to place a last minute bid. I do all my ebay bidding with a sniping service. Some consider that "bad sportsmanship", but the fact is that there are so many snipers now that I have to snipe to compete, at least in other sectors of Ebay where I play. I also see a lot of sniping in the test equipment categories.

 You just spent a month trying to ebay a 3200 count meter for less than $100. With that meter, you can match resistors to 0.1% only if the first digit of the value is less than 3. By my way of thinking, that is the only reason we need a high precision (really high resolution) meter. Do we really care, for example, if our power supplies are outputting 24.995V or 25.005V? Or if our 1K resistor is really 990R or 1010R ? Only if we are matching to 0.1%, and only in a relative sense.

 That is why I ebayed a couple of Wavetek 10,000 count meters for $15-$50. It was so much easier - no competition - zero - and I can match almost any resistor to 0.1% or better. (The consistency of the readings is very good on my meters, regardless of the absolute accuracy).

 Regards,
 Neil


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tomb* 
_I worked at this for weeks after seeing the last thread about buying Flukes on ebay. The 180 series was just too expensive for me. I wanted a 175, 177, or 179. In the first week or two, I saw a couple of 175's and 177's go for around $100 new, in-the-box. That got me excited. Try as might, though - I lost every bid for one in the last 30 seconds (that's no exagerration!) by as much as $50.

 I also kept an eye on the Fluke 73-III's -especially since reading that Tangent had used a 73 for years. By the way - Tangent's articles on DIY toolkits are priceless. He has three sets of prospective tool selections - Beginner, Journeyman, and Expert ... or something like that, and his meter suggestions are a great starting point.

 Anyway, for a long while, I saw that the 73's were going for almost $150 new, and $75-$100 used! One finally came up that ended on a weird time - about 10 AM on a weekday morning - and I won the bid at $51 for a new, in-the-box Fluke 73-III!

 So what did I learn?
 * Flukes are high demand items, bidding wars are common and frequent!
 * Don't get married to a single model,
 * Stay disciplined - don't get caught up in a bidding war for a used meter - there are always NEW ones if you remain patient, and
 * Finally, because of their high demand, look for Fluke listings that end at some other time than prime time.

 Oh - that last one may not hold, either - multiple listings on a Sunday night will divide the available bidders, so that you may still get a good price. That's what happened on that first night I started looking when the new 175's and 177's went for around $100. Prime time during the week is probably the worst deal._


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## tomb

Neil,

 Nothing personal here, but "lucky" is often someone else's description of work and persistence. You said "persistent" and that is really the key. I thought to pass on some advice from the _hard work._ Done successfully, ebay is hard work, nothing more complicated than that. I literally spent _days_ posting some of the things that I sell. My attitude is that once sold, I will regret forever that it didn't sell for a higher price if I didn't put in enough effort up front. Buying is the same thing, especially for a high-demand, reasonably expensive item.

 Personally, I hated Flukes until I got into this - too expensive, way over-priced, and a lot of marketing just on the name FLUKE. I tend not to buy things like that in _every_ case. Paradoxically though, now that I've been selling a lot of things on ebay, my purchases have become geared to that psychology as well, i.e., "Will this sell back on ebay once I'm done with it?" With Fluke, there is no question.

 I tried to investigate the cheaper Wavetek route, but quite frankly, you may have been the "lucky" one - their ebay listings are slim and rare compared to Fluke.

 There's nothing wrong with "Sniping" services - it still takes a buyer's interest in the item, and a willingness to pull the trigger.


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## NeilR

Tomb,

 I included persistent because you deserved it! I included lucky because there are so many snipers that time of day doesn't make that much of a difference anymore. It does, however, remove a large pool of potential less sophisticated bidders with day jobs.

 No question, my Wavetek meters are not very saleable, but I figure the 10A large fuses in them are worth as much as the meters themselves cost me. I bought spare fuses that came with a free meter 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 And they *are *hard to come by. Which is why I am surprised that they do not sell well when they come up. My hat is off to Fluke's marketing. I bought two within one week. Actually the 2nd one was by accident because I forgot to set up a snipe group. But for 15 bucks I won't complain. It is very handy having multiple meters monitoring different things when an amp gets brought up the first time.

 I only posted what I did because I think there are a lot of starving students here that are lead to believe that only a Fluke is good enough to get their Cmoy up and running, and that simply is not the case. I myself would like to own a Fluke, but the only ones that make sense for me (given my existing meters) would be the 187/189 series and I just haven't had the need to justify all the bidding it will take to bring one in at a decent price. I would like to find out what all the mystique is about. I have used them on occasion but never owned one.


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## tomb

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NeilR* 
_Tomb,

 I included persistent because you deserved it! I included lucky because there are so many snipers that time of day doesn't make that much of a difference anymore. It does, however, remove a large pool of potential less sophisticated bidders with day jobs.

 No question, my Wavetek meters are not very saleable, but I figure the 10A large fuses in them are worth as much as the meters themselves cost me. I bought spare fuses that came with a free meter 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 And they *are *hard to come by. Which is why I am surprised that they do not sell well when they come up. My hat is off to Fluke's marketing. I bought two within one week. Actually the 2nd one was by accident because I forgot to set up a snipe group. But for 15 bucks I won't complain. It is very handy having multiple meters monitoring different things when an amp gets brought up the first time.

 I only posted what I did because I think there are a lot of starving students here that are lead to believe that only a Fluke is good enough to get their Cmoy up and running, and that simply is not the case. I myself would like to own a Fluke, but the only ones that make sense for me (given my existing meters) would be the 187/189 series and I just haven't had the need to justify all the bidding it will take to bring one in at a decent price. I would like to find out what all the mystique is about. I have used them on occasion but never owned one._

 

Yep - those are all great points ... didn't think about the CMoy crowd (I am still one!). Up until this Fluke, I used a tiny IBM-throwaway analog-Triplett, with borrowed leads.


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## NeilR

I actually mentioned Cmoy more or less sarcastically 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 There isn't anything on these DIY sites (M3/PPA/Gilmore) that requires a meter designed for 1000V readings with 0.01% accuracy in extreme environmental conditions where it might be run over by a truck. These things are designed to survive use on the Alaska Pipeline in mid-winter, I guess.

 Our meters are actually very "overspec'd" physically and electrically for anything we build while it is sitting on our work benches in our environmentally controlled homes measuring the output from our 24V supplies, or even our power mains. (With the exception of matching, as I mentioned earlier) 

 Like I said, my hat's off to Fluke. I wish I had that marketing ability.


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## rufus13

The point of the thread: matching resistors on the cheap. 

 You don't need a super-cool DMM or LCR meter to match resistors to within .1% , all you need is a BRIDGE. It will be slower than a $5K meter, but if you start with a box of 50 nice RNC-series 1%, how wrong can you get? 

 Using your DMM set to millivolts/microvolts DC (you do have a 3.5 or 4.5 digit DMM, right?) on the external detector terminals of your BRIDGE (like an AN/URM-90), and the Unit Under Test (UUT, that would be the first resistor), adjust the dials for a null. You can pre-set the dials to the nominal value of R, then it will only be a tiny nudge to balance. A balanced bridge will be indicated when your DMM shows zero. Nudge it past this to see how much it takes to start indicating the other way, then go back. 

 This is just a DC match. A good bridge can do AC, too, with an internal or external oscillator. A good one for the AN/URM-90 is an HP 200CD (tooooobzzzz & transformers) because it can crank out the voltage, compared to most SS generators. HP 205AG has a super-bad output stage that can go well over 100V at audio frequencies. 

 Should I make a video? 

 Anyway, you won't be matching absolute values, you will be matching relative values, which is more important for opamp ratios and balanced signal noise rejection. If you have a Government Contract, you may need to offer matched absolute values, in which case you will be using fancy and expensive DMM's that have periodic calibration schedules. I miss having access to multiple opt-001 HP 3458A's and Fluke 57xx's that Unca Sam pays for! But, that lab stuff is not important AT ALL for good audio. Four 3.5 digit DMM's, a function generator, a 652A, a 334A and two 60MHZ analog scopes ($1000 used, maximum) will do for most everything, and if it won't, you can rent an Audio Precision analyzer (if Uncle Sam is demanding it). 

 Wavetek- ugh. Beckman-argh. Vintage General Radio -neat and repairable! 1960's HP & Tek are great, 1970's Fluke is fine, ESI is real-nice. The best thing about poor gear is that it goes away almost by itself, while the old stuff keeps working along with the the old tech's who handle it. Lab gear lasts, while field test equipment is trashed. 

 I'm not opposed to owning cheap analog CRT 'scopes (student grade, made in Taiwan) because I can toss them in the trunk and not worry. Many of them are copies of old Tek anyway. If I see them as surplus for $50, I buy even if not needed. Same with an old Fluke/HP/Philips/Tek DMM, buy it, and on-average, you will do well. 

 This stuff sure takes up a lot of space in my office! 

 Cheers.

 r13....USAF 2P051/32450...Between the Sandbox Wars.


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## Nebby

2P0X1? Rather appropriate AFSC for this thread


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## digger945

I just picked up a Sears brand Fluke 81438 at the pawn shop for $25. About this time last year I picked up an older Fluke 75 like this one for $20 at the same local pawn shop. I really like the 81438 as the display shows readings faster and updates more often than the older 75. The bar graph moves quicker too.


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