# Electrolytic Capacitors used in Audio DC blocking -- comparison tread



## madwolf

Capacitor rolling for Portable amplifier using ibasso D10 as testbed    
  I have all read the how different capacitors sound in different setup, but I will never really know unless I listen to them, The experience was really an ear opener when I tried it years also with all the Plastic, paper and different "magical" capacitors. I never believe in electrolytic (results from reading to much), and have always avoided them with DC servo to remove the DC offset.
  Swapping Capacitors could be tricky, Lead inductance will be an issue, At audio frequency a capacitors would act like an inductor, I would prefer to solder each cap direct onto the board, but heat will means that I have to run the cap for a while to let to reform, In the end I choose to socket my D10 for this purpose. The leads of the cap are kept to the minimum and temperature and condition of all caps are keep as constant as possible to reduce the forming effects of the electrolytic.
  All cap are chosen to be 10mm*12.5mm, as this is the largest size that will fit into the D10. Voltage of capacitors has to be 6.3 or above and the maximum capacitance from the series. This is the restriction that amp designer face and we as end user will have to content with. Op-amp would be 2211 on the LR and Single BUF634 HiC for buffers





   
   

   
  The line up of capacitors are as follows.
   
  From ELNA we have
 1) Cerefine 16V 100uF
 2) Silmic 16V 100uF
 3) Silmic 2 6.3V 220uf
 4) ROV Solid electrolytic audio cap 16V 470uF
   
  From Nichicon corner, presenting
 1) Fine Gold FG 6.3V 470uf
 2) ES BP 16V 100uf Bi-polar
   
  From Sanyo challengers are
 1) WX 6.3v 1000uf
 2) OSCON SP series 16v 470uF
   
  Legends from Panasonic (they are often compared to Black gates 10 years ago)
 1) FC 330uf
   
  Representing Nippon Chemicon
 1) ASF 16V 470uf (This is the cap that comes with the D10)
   
  A highly recommended capacitors from our Japanese friends
 1) Toshin UTSJ 16V 470uF
   
  Not missing from the list with be the now extinct BlackGates NX Bi Polar.
 I cannot get the exact size of 10mm*12.5 But would be included in the listening test as a reference. I got 6.3V 220uF NX and a normal 220uf 16v.
  The list of capacitors would not be restricted to the above, will look for more (Time and wallet permitting).
  Currently the caps are going forming/burn in process on a rotation basis, I plan to have at least 100hours burn in for each cap.
  Initial observation (hear-servation).
 Capacitors rolling change the texture of the sound especially the timbre the harshness the body and sweetness of the vocal and instrument.
  OP-AMP however changes the whole spectrum, the noise level, the amount of distortion, the overall presentation and most importantly the resolution of the sound. The layering.
   
  Sound impression after 48 hours burn in for each capacitor.
  My D10 Capacitor Rolling experience have been crazy!
  In the First week, All the different listening session left me in confusion. The sound of the Capacitor before burn in could be different within the same song. One moment it is good and another all bad. Once instance clear and bring another instance muddy and warm. At 24 hours brun in for the cap it is still changing but at 48 hours things seem to settle in a bit, but changes are still happening.
  Initial impression after 48 hours of burn in for capacitors
   
  ELNA Silmic 2 — This is the highest rated cap after Black gates. The sound is fast and neutral. A top contender for the D10
   
  ELNA Silmic — This is a very good all rounder, but the difference is very small compared to the newer 2, Simlic is warmer than silmic 2 but the overall air of confidence is missing compared to 2 and fro instrument silmic 2 is clearly better.
   
  ELNA Cerafine — I have the most trouble auditing this Change change change in the first 24 hours. Cerafine have great potential get resolution and warmth at the same time but some grain in the sound. It is getting less grainy as it is burn in at 48 hours it has not settle yet. so let see later.
   
  NichIcon KZ — Best for string instrument, the texture and air around guitar string never sounded so real on the D10 you could tell if the string are metal or nylon, Vocal is as good as the Silmic 2 and maybe a tat warmer.
 Unfortunally KZ series only comes in 25V and above and the only one that can fit is a 47uF 25V. Because of the small capacitance size the deep bass is missing from the sound. The leads of KZ are notably thicker than other capacitors
   
  Nichicon FineGold — It is a good all rounder but not in the league of cerifine, Silmic or KZ. Neutral and extended.
   
  Nichicon ES Bipolar — The king of vocal, Super warm and super sweet. After 48 hours it less warm and less sweet, but still much more than the rest. Th best if you ONLY listen to acapalla and or vocal. It is so good that I forgot I am audition cap and just enjoyed the song. Instrument and bass however need to be improved.
   
  Toshin UTSJ — Warm sounding, as QUSP noted the high are not as clear as the best but for vocal it is sweet and warm. bass is deep and strong as well. Even with a WIMA bypass the high did not open up enough.
   
  Sanyo WG — Good for sub sonic monster otherwise not an audio capacitor.
   
  Sanyo OSCON SP — Thin on vocal, bright and clear at the high end. Extended bass. Sounds disappointing.
   
  Panasonic FC — It has an all rounded sound , but does not excel in any area. Vocal is there but a tat cold. High is there but not extended or sharp.
   
  Nippon chemicon ASF — Vocal is tat warm and high bright and clear, bass is there but not extended.
   
  Black gate 220uF 6.3V NX — Sound stage is small, Vocal is full body slightly warm. Instrument is distinct but not as hair raising as
  Silmic or the KZ. Vocal not as smooth as the Toshin. Lots of sibilance. Bass does not goes to the very low end, but when it hit it is hard and solid. But is is one very musical capacitor. Overall the presentation of the music is balance and very enjoyable. At 48 hours the sound start to get muddy.
   
  Black gate normal 16V 220uf — This one is added for comparison it does not meet the rule as it is 10mm*20mm. The black gates excel very well in the highs but similar to NX it has sibilance. The bass for this one is deep and powerful, but voice is a not sweet or mellow.


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## madwolf

--Reserved--


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## i_djoel2000

in this comparison, are you changing the input caps or the supply caps? i assume it's the input caps?


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## madwolf

Sorry if I am not clear on this
   
  It is the output cap after the amplifier output before the headphone.
  The main purpose is to block DC offset voltages to the headphone.
   
   
  Quote: 





i_djoel2000 said:


> in this comparison, are you changing the input caps or the supply caps? i assume it's the input caps?


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## qusp

is this round 2? you posted the above earlier this year, so i'm assuming you have some new contenders?


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## madwolf

I will post an update when all the cap have a few hundred hours each.
   
  Do you have any suggestion of possible candidate,
   
  I am interested in the UTSF series from Toshin they are supposed to be better than the UTSJ but do not know where to buy them.
   
  I cannot find my old post and I think people here might be more interested to discuss such stuff


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## ClieOS

Very interesting comparison. I know you are only doing electrolytic, but I would love to see if you can add a pair of AVX OxiCap (niobium oxide) to the comparison. I used them in one of my LOD and find them to be pretty good sounding, rivaling Nichicon ES. It is however SMD so mounting it will be more difficult.


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## tomb

Just a constructive suggestion, but you need to work on the organization of your comments to be more useful.  There's a lot of jumping around.  You don't even list KZ's up front, but then you have several comments about them.  They also come in more voltages than 25V.  It seems you are stating that in terms of the 16V that you are using for the other caps, but the entire line includes 50V caps as well.  Lead thickness on the KZ's also doesn't mean much if you are comparing 25V caps with 16V caps - anyone's 25V caps is going to have thicker leads.  I think also that there's not much use in comparing Panasonic FC's if you don't also include Panasonic FM's, a much better cap - at least in ripple and ESR ... and if you compare Pana FC's/FM's, then you should probably include Nichicon UPW's/UHE's.  Finally, it appears that your photo shows Nichicon Muse FX's (you didn't review those), but there are no ES's in the pic.
   
  I'm a little surprised that you didn't remark more about the ES's being strong in bass - that's their most widely known quality, IMHO.  At the same time, it's nice that you talked about their midrange.  It seems not to be talked about much, but I've always found them to be a very neutral, transparent cap.  They just may not be as detailed as the Elna/Black Gates.
   
  I agree totally with your assessment of the Elna RFS Silmic II's - but I would add that they are totally equivalent to Black Gate NX's in sound, period.  When you add in the fact that they are much cheaper and do not require the extensive burn-in of the BG NX's, then they are actually superior.  They are truly outstanding caps and thankfully, mean that we never have to miss the Black Gates.
   
  I hate KZ's.  I can see why you like them with guitar - their sound has a distinctive "etched" quality which probably sounds glorious with strings, but lousy with everything else, especially midrange (vocals).
   
  It's a good effort and it's always interesting to see someone's capacitor sound impression tests.  Specs mean nothing when it comes to sound quality, so individual comparisons add to our knowledge about the various caps and their suitability.


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## madwolf

Thanks Tomb for your comments and additional info/details. Added a picture with the updated caps 
   
  With regards to the KZ being 25V -- My comparison was done with a physical size constrain. It was restricted to 10*12.5 mm and have to be at least 6.3V (which is the easy part)
  At 25V with the size constrain the KZ is being limited to 47uf. Where as the others comes at a much larger capacitance. A higher uF would give a better more extended frequency response 
  being used at this position.
   
  The main reason why electrolytic are used is because they are small in size.  Most of the "for Audio" Capacitors are much bigger in size (or smaller in capacitance)
  than the Low ESR type at the same physical size. The silmic at 16V 10*12.5 is only 100uf while an OSCON is 470. That is a 4.7 times different. 
   
  Mine interest in music are mainly Vocal / Jazz / Wind instrument and maybe some string and hence I often paid less attention to the bass. 
   
  I am just hoping to create a tread much like the OPAMP tread here.


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## BobSaysHi

I'm interested to see where this goes.


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## acuransx

Will be _extremely_ thrilled to see how the Panasonic FM compares with its elder sibling FC & the rest of these boutique caps.
   
  Could the Panasonic FM very well be the "Giant Killer", cheap & good ?


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## akgfan

I'd like to know how "good" are Nichicon HE. I have them temporarily in my amp until I buy something better. But I have to say they are definitely better than my previous cheapo. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  And which one is your favorite? Or which is the most worth to buy (sound/price).


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## FallenAngel

Nichicon HE are great in the PSU - just look at the ESR specs, for most sizes they're as good as Panasonic FM.  Some sizes, Nichicon PW are better, so look at datasheet and pick.


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## studeb

i understand your sizing conctriction, but would it not be better to use caps with all the same values?
  You are comparing 100 to 220 to 470 to 100uF caps


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## akgfan

And what about two different caps in parallel? Which one? I know that it wasn't his goal but it's an interesting idea.


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## CHansen

Originally Posted by *madwolf* /img/forum/go_quote.gif


> Capacitor rolling for Portable amplifier using ibasso D10 as testbed


 
   
  Wow, Madwolf!
   
  Outstanding work! Thank you so much for your dedication and also sharing your observations.
   
  One thing I have found is that 99% of all capacitors have copper-plated steel leads. This ruins any hope for good sound. It is difficult to find capacitors with pure copper leads. There are a few that you have missed:
   
  Nippon Chemi-Con -- Neither model is listed in the US catalog, but the Japanese catalog lists both the ASH and AVH series as using copper leads. May be hard to find. The ASF series you tested has steel leads, even though it is part of their "audio" series.
   
  Panasonic -- Both the FM and FC have steel leads and are not really contenders. In their brochures for their Blu-ray players, they brag a lot about the PZ series, also called "Pureism", which has copper leads. Oddly enough, they are not listed on either the US nor the Japanese websites. However, if you do a search on eBay you will find several vendors selling them. They come from China, so you have to cross your fingers and hope they are not fakes. But they are only a few dollars. When you get them, check the leads with magnet. If they are non-magnetic, they are probably genuine.
   
  Toshin -- These are unheard of outside of Japan, despite the company being 48 years old! They have an audio line-up, but only the top model (UTSF) uses copper leads. So if you liked the USTJ, then the top model should be very good indeed. Steel leads make the sound very rough and grainy.
   
  Sanyo OS-CON -- Here we have a sad story. For many, many years, they made an audio series with copper leads (through-hole only). But they have just re-organized (and simplified) their lineup. The copper leaded version has disappeared. They were the SP series, which you tested. As you were unimpressed, the newer ones are probably much worse.
   
  Again, great, great work! Hopefully you will have a few extra dollars and a few extra hours to test some of these other interesting capacitors!
   
  Thanks,
  Charlie


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